# thought on the whole shoes/barefoot thing



## the watcher (25 July 2012)

I've been here (on this forum) a very long time. That doesn't make me special, or my opinion especially valuable, but it does mean that I have seen some trends and changes over the years.

The one that is currently troubling me a little is the whole barefoot thing; hardly a day passes without some poor owner seeking reassurance about the right diet, whether their 'transitioning' is going correctly, where to source the right hoof boots, how to locate the right trimmer. I say 'poor owner', the reality of course is poor horse, those horses that had been perfectly happy for years working in shoes whose owners have decided that being unshod is somehow preferable.

I'm not against unshod horses, if a horse can work happily without shoes I'm all for it, I have unshod horses myself, and one with just fronts and just one with a full set of shoes (believe me, he wouldn't cope at all without them)

However, if your horse being unshod (or barefoot if that is what you want to call it) means that you have to be mail ordering special minerals to keep them comfortable, ordering in hoof boots, agonising over their diet and lfestyle.....you have to ask yourself whether you are actually doing the right thing and whether it wouldn't be kinder to just nail a set of shoes on...

wouldn't you?


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## trickivicki (25 July 2012)

I completely 100% agree!!!

Unfortunately, due to repeated shoe self- removal me and Peej have been forced into the world of barefoot-ness... it is heavy going!!! Every article seems to end with a different product you should buy or a different (often very labour intensive or completely impractical) routine you should be doing!

I have lost count of how many times in the last 18 days I have ended up in tears out of pure frustration.

We are currently on a feed/routine/work load/hoof boot regime that I hope will work....

I wish we could have our shoes back , we were happy not being trendy!


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## itsonlyme (25 July 2012)

You said " I say 'poor owner', the reality of course is poor horse, those horses that had been perfectly happy for years working in shoes whose owners have decided that being unshod is somehow preferable."

This is SO not true! Most horses (mine included) have gone barefoot BECAUSE of problems caused by shoes! Barefoot was a last resort for many. Remedial farriery was causing my mare masses of problems. If i can get her sound this way, i couldn't care less how much it costs. Many wouldn't be here at all the rate they were going. :-/


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## Slightlyconfused (25 July 2012)

To be honest my thoughts on the matter is at the end of the day they pay for their horse so they can do what they like as long as they horses is taken care of.

If mine needed a bf for any reason then I would do it but they are fine shod.
I have had a bf pony in the past and I say bf in the lightist sense of the word, he didnt have any special diet just a slice of hay at night, grass in the day and was worked well and had very hard hooves.

But some horses lack certain things in their diet so it needs to be supplemented to help with healthy hooves no matter weather they are shod or not........

That is my opinion only, I have asked questions before because I was curious about the Transistion period as was thinking about it for the WB, it had nothing to do with any lamness or anything I was thinking on the saving money side of things, but she is doing so well in her rebacking that I didnt want to take a step back waiting to ge rock crunchers.

The few BF people I will actively listen to on here are Oberon and Cpraytes (sorry if spelt that wrong the heat is muddling my brain) as they have so much information and advice and don't mollie coddle you.


By the way agree with the above poster.......most of the time people are goingBF as a last resort to save their horse considerible pain and lamness. so you really can't judge until you knw the whole story.

right now I'm going to sit back with some ice cream and bulmers mixed berry and lime to watch the show


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## Meowy Catkin (25 July 2012)

I come at this barefoot/unshod debate from a different angle as my happily shod for years mare was almost crippled by a bad farrier who shod her for a short time. She's had her shoes off for well over a year now and I'm starting to bring her back into work. Considering that she was almost PTS, I'm thrilled that she is doing so well. 

She has not suffered because her shoes came off, it has saved her (sounds dramatic but completely true and not an overstatement). Yes, I do think more carefully about her diet but I think that that is a good thing anyway.


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## the watcher (25 July 2012)

itsonlyme said:



			You said " I say 'poor owner', the reality of course is poor horse, those horses that had been perfectly happy for years working in shoes whose owners have decided that being unshod is somehow preferable."

This is SO not true! Most horses (mine included) have gone barefoot BECAUSE of problems caused by shoes! Barefoot was a last resort for many. Remedial farriery was causing my mare masses of problems. If i can get her sound this way, i couldn't care less how much it costs. Many wouldn't be here at all the rate they were going. :-/
		
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I have noticed a trend for people claiming this over the last 18 months or so. I've no doubt that for a very small number of horses that may well be true, although probably has more to do with inappropriate farriery in individual cases than shoes being a problem.

The minority who have had success are very vociferous and quite evangelical about the improvement, and this is the part that concerns me because it may persuade others that barefoot is the way forward for every horse. It isn't.

Funnily enough you rarely hear posts from people commenting on how their horse was footsore and not coping, but became far more comfortable with a well fitted set of shoes...which is probably the far more common scenario


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## the watcher (25 July 2012)

Faracat said:



			I come at this barefoot/unshod debate from a different angle as my happily shod for years mare was almost crippled by a bad farrier who shod her for a short time. She's had her shoes off for well over a year now and I'm starting to bring her back into work. Considering that she was almost PTS, I'm thrilled that she is doing so well. 

She has not suffered because her shoes came off, it has saved her (sounds dramatic but completely true and not an overstatement). Yes, I do think more carefully about her diet but I think that that is a good thing anyway.
		
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If you found that she wasn't coping with work unshod would you put shoes back on then?


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## laura_nash (25 July 2012)

the watcher said:



			those horses that had been perfectly happy for years working in shoes whose owners have decided that being unshod is somehow preferable.
		
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I guess the question is whether they really were perfectly happy in the shoes, because (and I might be wrong) I think most people have a reason for going barefoot rather than just because its trendy at the moment.  I have been hearing this whole "wouldn't it be kinder to just nail a set of shoes on" argument quite a bit as we struggled a couple of months ago with the good grass.  Problem is I went barefoot for a reason - because my horse kept tripping over, which completely went as soon as the shoes came off.  

Also, I just find him so much nicer to ride unshod, in part because we have a lot of road riding on steep slopes where I am and I don't enjoy skidding about.  So I am prepared to put in the time and effort to get the diet sorted so that we can stay barefoot, and find some well-fitting boots for when there are problems.  I don't really see mail-ordering special minerals or agonising over lifestyle / grass intake as enough of an issue to make me stop, but then I was already mail-ordering vet prescribed COPD supplement and agonising over lifestyle for weight-loss (very good doer!).


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## FairyLights (25 July 2012)

This is a great thread. If the horse can work "shoeless" then thats brilliant. However if his hooves wear down too much they need protection by either a shoe or a boot. Simples! People agonise and worry and spend a lot of money unnecessarily.  Either shoe or boot if needed Which is up to you. 
Personally my horses are shoeless Nov to April and then have shoes on April til end October.


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## soloequestrian (25 July 2012)

the watcher said:



			The one that is currently troubling me a little is the whole barefoot thing; hardly a day passes without some poor owner seeking reassurance about the right diet, whether their 'transitioning' is going correctly, where to source the right hoof boots, how to locate the right trimmer. I say 'poor owner', the reality of course is poor horse, those horses that had been perfectly happy for years working in shoes whose owners have decided that being unshod is somehow preferable.

I'm not against unshod horses, if a horse can work happily without shoes I'm all for it, I have unshod horses myself, and one with just fronts and just one with a full set of shoes (believe me, he wouldn't cope at all without them)

However, if your horse being unshod (or barefoot if that is what you want to call it) means that you have to be mail ordering special minerals to keep them comfortable, ordering in hoof boots, agonising over their diet and lfestyle.....you have to ask yourself whether you are actually doing the right thing and whether it wouldn't be kinder to just nail a set of shoes on...

wouldn't you?
		
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No.
At least when owners are 'agonising' over diet and lifestyle, they are thinking hard about their horse's health.  How many owners just hand responsibility for their horse's feet over completely to the farrier and then have no idea whether said farrier is doing a good job or not.
I went bare years before I read anything about anyone else doing it, and now (as a biologist) it seems insane to me that anyone would nail a solid metal object to their animal.  It just defies common sense that this can be a healthy thing to do, and certainly in the case of a horse that is lame when it doesn't have shoes on - there is obviously some sort of problem that should be addressed, not masked.  Many hoof issues are things that take a long time to develop, so a horse seeming 'happy' in shoes isn't necessarily the best measure of hoof health.  I can see the attraction of shoeing for certain activities, or perhaps at certain times of year for those with difficult metabolic issues, but shoeing really should be the exception rather than the norm, and all horses should regularly have time out of shoes.


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## WelshD (25 July 2012)

personally I dont know what happened to the term 'unshod'

I guess if being unshod is helping the horse then there is no harm done and of course what works well for one horse wouldnt work for another but I do think some people are evangelical to the point of fever pitch about it


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## AngieandBen (25 July 2012)

As the saying goes, all horses can become barefoot but not all owners can.  Its certainly not for the quick fix, its a long term thing,  depends if want/can fit it into your lifestyle.

For me,  having had my 20 year old pony kicked twice in the stomach by a farrier wearing steel toecaps because he couldn't be bothered to wait while Ben stood squarely was the deciding factor,( he used to be sedated before I had him  ) not because I was against shoes.

But then he has been brilliant ( now have a good trimmer and he goes to sleep ) Its no hassle to me bringing in during the day in the spring/summer and fed on soaked hay, neither is it any bother that I have to spend a few minutes putting on front boots, and its certainly no bother for my pocket which has more money in it!

If your horse can't walk unshod on tarmac without being "footy" then surely there's something wrong, and if there's something wrong wouldn't you want to find out what it was rather than just shoeing and thinking, well he's sound now so thats ok?


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## dressagecrazy (25 July 2012)

the watcher said:



			I have noticed a trend for people claiming this over the last 18 months or so. I've no doubt that for a very small number of horses that may well be true, although probably has more to do with inappropriate farriery in individual cases than shoes being a problem.

The minority who have had success are very vociferous and quite evangelical about the improvement, and this is the part that concerns me because it may persuade others that barefoot is the way forward for every horse. It isn't.

Funnily enough you rarely hear posts from people commenting on how their horse was footsore and not coping, but became far more comfortable with a well fitted set of shoes...which is probably the far more common scenario
		
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Im not evangelical, but i do have to say my big WB ended up with a very severe injury inside his hoof. He managed to damage the Impar ligament which then adhered itself to the DDFT. He was in a very bad way, I was told by the Vets i would be lucky if he made it to being field sound.
I did the whole remidial shoeing & unfortunately that made him worse, he was seen by one of the top farriers.

I decided to take him barefoot, from the off he was much happier & slowly with careful management. He's now fully sound & is back competing BD at Medium level & doing it with ease. He moves better & feels better than he ever did before.

I like to keep open minded, all my 5 horses are barefoot. No special diets, yes hoof boots occasionally for hacking if needed & a fab trimmer. No smoke or mirrors just good horse management.


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## LucyPriory (25 July 2012)

OP - I can understand your point of view if you have never had a horse with a PTS sentence then restored to full competitive health by the type of management changes made for healthy unshod/barefoot hooves.

Hqwever the diet changes invoked are often just simple healthy food choices - healthy for most horses, not just the unshod.  But an unshod hoof leaves the owner with nowhere to hide.  They get it right or the hooves will tell the tale.

And I've never, not once, deshod a hoof that hasn't in some way been compromised by the shoes - even when beautifully shod.  And some farriers do superb work, but regardless of how good they are, the shoes still cause some damage.  It's not the fault of the good farriers, its the nature of applying a solid metal object to a flexible, adaptable, biological one.


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## joeanne (25 July 2012)

Its what works for the horse surely?
I have had several over the years that have been quite happy shoeless (sorry cant bring myself to say barefoot!), but on the flip side I have had a few that will not cope without shoes regardless, and as such wear them.
Would rather have a happy comfortable horse TBH.


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## FabioandFreddy (25 July 2012)

I personally don't think some horses can cope with being barefoot. I'm not anti barefoot. Our old dressage horse was barefoot and had been all his life. He had good feet and was never footy even with road work so we kept him that way - no special diet. I asked his old owner if he was on supplements etc and he'd never been on anything extra to contribute to his hooth health. I think it makes a big difference if a horse has always been barefoot as i think they're adapted to cope with that lifestyle. However as he was a bundle of nerves anywhere other than the school, we didn't hack loads and when he did a lot was on verges, but he was fine on the roads when we did go on them.

I wouldn't keep a horse barefoot if it needed hoofboots to do things though. To me if they need them and are footsore without then i don't think they're really coping barefoot and i would have them shod. Just my opinion though! Sure there's probably a million who will tell me i'm wrong! But then i'm sure there was a reason they started nailing metal on horses hooves other than to drain our purses of £70 every 6 weeks!


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## pookie (25 July 2012)

My 4yo is unshod and has been all her life - she's on grass livery, has no supplements and has great feet. Should she ever require shoes then she'll have them...if they're in her best interests. My new 13yo came to me shod all round and with crumbling backs (whether that's bad grazing, the wet weather, bad farriery, just her or something else I've yet to determine). My plan is to go unshod long term _if it suits her_ but if she needs shoes then she'll have them. All horses are different, though I'm inclined to think more can go unshod successfully than many people think. Ultimately, while I prefer unshod, I'll do whatever's best for my horses


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## MerrySherryRider (25 July 2012)

Fanatical, evangelical barefootiness etc etc. its such a turn off. 

Working unshod horses is not new, but the money making spin is. 

Obsessing doesn't make a good owner, neither does blaming a farrier for ruining your horse. Learning to recognise a well balanced and well shod horse is pretty essential for a horse owner.

Horse care is the same for shod and unshod horses. Appropriate diet, fresh air and exercise. No money in that approach though.


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## Cortez (25 July 2012)

joeanne said:



			Its what works for the horse surely?
I have had several over the years that have been quite happy shoeless (sorry cant bring myself to say barefoot!), but on the flip side I have had a few that will not cope without shoes regardless, and as such wear them.
Would rather have a happy comfortable horse TBH.
		
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This ^^^ entirely. Keeping an open mind, and not harping on like crazed evangelists at poor, confused novices would also help to keep eveything a bit more civilised, I'd say. I have several of my horses without shoes, because they are perfectly happy without them. I have one who has just got her shoes put back on because she is most definately not happy without when her workload is heavier.


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## PandorasJar (25 July 2012)

I like unshod for mine as currently youngsters and when in work will be happy hackers with no roadwork.

The farriers I'd use are all very good and aren't heavily biased as to shod or unshod, so will give you an honest view on what would suit the individual horse rather than what he or the owner would prefer. If they say that a horse isn't going to cope without shoes then I'll take his advice.

Pan


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## Meowy Catkin (25 July 2012)

the watcher said:



			If you found that she wasn't coping with work unshod would you put shoes back on then?
		
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LucyPriory said:



			OP - I can understand your point of view if you have never had a horse with a PTS sentence then restored to full competitive health by the type of management changes made for healthy unshod/barefoot hooves.

Hqwever the diet changes invoked are often just simple healthy food choices - healthy for most horses, not just the unshod.  But an unshod hoof leaves the owner with nowhere to hide.  They get it right or the hooves will tell the tale.

And I've never, not once, deshod a hoof that hasn't in some way been compromised by the shoes - even when beautifully shod.  And some farriers do superb work, but regardless of how good they are, the shoes still cause some damage.

As for the not so good farriers.
		
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I'm going to be quite honest - I am actually slightly frightened of shoeing her again, so I really hope that she continues to cope unshod with no trouble.

If she is sound and happy going for a potter around the lanes (so far so good and she's totally sound in the school anyway), then I'll stick to the things that she can cope with. 

You have to remember that I nearly lost her, then field sound was the best that I could hope for... now ridden work is looking seriously possible.

No, I don't want to shoe her again and I don't want to shoe any of my horses.


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## Cortez (25 July 2012)

But would you, if they were footsore? I completely understand that some problems are caused by shoeing, but there are also horses which can't cope with being unshod. And, FWIW, I absolutely believe that probably the majority of leisure horses do NOT need shoes.


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## Meowy Catkin (25 July 2012)

Learning to recognise a well balanced and well shod horse is pretty essential for a horse owner.
		
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I agree completely. Now that I have learnt what a well balanced hoof should look like shod/unshod, I am horrified by the amount of badly shod horses with flare, under-run heels and long toes. The problem is that this is so common that it begins to look normal.


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## TwoStroke (25 July 2012)

The thing about us barefoot nutters is that at some point in the past pretty much all of us used to shoe our horses. What changed for us? Learning about the evolution of the horse - metabolism, biomechanics and behaviour to name a few. After the many, many hours of research I've done on hooves (probably as many hours as I spent studying my degree), barefoot is just logical to me now.


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## Meowy Catkin (25 July 2012)

Cortez said:



			But would you, if they were footsore? I completely understand that some problems are caused by shoeing, but there are also horses which can't cope with being unshod. And, FWIW, I absolutely believe that probably the majority of leisure horses do NOT need shoes.
		
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She is not footsore at the moment and if that changed I would think about the reasons why - rather than just slapping shoes on.

If I had everything right (low sugar diet etc...) and she was sore then I would consider shoes although I would consider boots too. If she was sore even when turned out, then shoes become an obvious solution, but as I said, I really hope that this doesn't happen.


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## tallyho! (25 July 2012)

There was a reason all horses were shod in the dark ages. Most stood in their own excrement for hours on end eating nothing but grain before being hitched to a cart for the rest of the day. Those hooves need shoes. At least until they die of founder and / or azoturia from the diet. 

Some things haven't changed but some have. Horses are afforded better living conditions, better food, well a diet more natural anyway and therefore hooves thrive. 

I think to dismiss the "fad" is a mistake as there is so much being discovered about hooves that science did not know. It has come a long way over the last 30 years or so, not that unshod is a new thing, but more attention is being paid to form, function, biological links... I think it's marvellous personally. Some horses will need to be shod to perform how it's human wants it to, but the discoveries will shape the way they are shod in the future to avoid navicular, tendon problems and othe lameness related to hooves. Imprint shoes are one of the shoes to come out of these discoveries. 

It doesn't matter if you think it's good or bad, the fact you are talking about it highlights the fact that time out of shoes is helping a few horses that needed a break perhaps and a change of nutrients. With so much on the market, one can be fooled into thinking all horses need build-up when pony cubes and hay would suffice.

It's funny that so many people are against barefoot while crying undying love for the farrier. The original barefooters ARE farriers and maybe one or two caring vets!

I was amazed my navicular laminitic completed a 3ft HT and came 3rd when not even a year previous I was sobbing into a pillow at the prospect of losing him. Please forgive me for being evangelical. I am just so happy and wanted to share it. Isn't that what forums are for?


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## Diddleydoo (25 July 2012)

Faracat said:



			She is not footsore at the moment and if that changed I would think about the reasons why - rather than just slapping shoes on.

If I had everything right (low sugar diet etc...) and she was sore then I would consider shoes although I would consider boots too. If she was sore even when turned out, then shoes become an obvious solution, but as I said, I really hope that this doesn't happen.
		
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Sorry for the hijack, and not just a question for you Faracat but.....

If the horse is footsore out of shoes, surely the horse is still footsore in shoes it's just the shoes masking it?

And if that is correct in what way are the shoes helping the horse?  Is it not just the owner who feels better because the horse appears comfortable?


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## AngieandBen (25 July 2012)

Awwww Tallyho, I feel your happiness!

I see no shame in using hoof boots;  we all want our horses to be comfortable;  thing is I can take his boots off after our two hour hacks twice a week.  He's completely sound on the roads and tanks around the fields, but as we have quite a few tracks, I would rather boot him as he flinches if stepping on sharp stones, as would anyone really!


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## FabioandFreddy (25 July 2012)

Diddleydoo said:



			Sorry for the hijack, and not just a question for you Faracat but.....

If the horse is footsore out of shoes, surely the horse is still footsore in shoes it's just the shoes masking it?

And if that is correct in what way are the shoes helping the horse?  Is it not just the owner who feels better because the horse appears comfortable?
		
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But horse with very flat feet say, could have the heels/bulbs touching the floor when they should be, so shoes would lift and support so the wouldn't be sore or masking the soreness as it should be eradicated with the shoes.


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## AngieandBen (25 July 2012)

Diddleydoo said:



			Sorry for the hijack, and not just a question for you Faracat but.....

If the horse is footsore out of shoes, surely the horse is still footsore in shoes it's just the shoes masking it?

And if that is correct in what way are the shoes helping the horse?  Is it not just the owner who feels better because the horse appears comfortable?
		
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Exactly, because the horse is sound in shoes, then all most be fine


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## Pale Rider (25 July 2012)

There must be acres of print now about the benefits of barefoot, the reasons for it. Equally the only benefit of shoes is that they hide what's really going on. Yet people still trot out the same stupid reasons for shoeing. Does nobody read and understand how feet work, why do we have to go over and over this stuff. Thick or what.


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## MerrySherryRider (25 July 2012)

Diddleydoo said:



			Sorry for the hijack, and not just a question for you Faracat but.....

If the horse is footsore out of shoes, surely the horse is still footsore in shoes it's just the shoes masking it?

And if that is correct in what way are the shoes helping the horse?  Is it not just the owner who feels better because the horse appears comfortable?
		
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But don't barefooters just slap hoof boots on instead ? The answer is to increase workload and adjust the diet. A footy barefoot horse is uncomfortable in its free time too, not just when its being ridden unless its fortunate enough to be turned out on very forgiving ground.


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## AngieandBen (25 July 2012)

Pale Rider said:



			There must be acres of print now about the benefits of barefoot, the reasons for it. Equally the only benefit of shoes is that they hide what's really going on. Yet people still trot out the same stupid reasons for shoeing. Does nobody read and understand how feet work, why do we have to go over and over this stuff. Thick or what.
		
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I'm trying to convince a good friend whose horse has laminitis/heel pain/soft tissue damage etc and whose horse is shod with heartbars filled with resign  to go barefoot;  After months of "nothing" seems to be working it does make me wonder why I bother, as her farrier keeps telling me, "whose the expert here, me or you"!!


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## TwoStroke (25 July 2012)

FabioandFreddy said:



			But horse with very flat feet say, could have the heels/bulbs touching the floor when they should be, so shoes would lift and support so the wouldn't be sore or masking the soreness as it should be eradicated with the shoes.
		
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But the _problem_ here is flat feet. Shoes won't solve flat feet - only diet and restoring natural function can do that. So shoes would be treating a symptom, but would allow the underlying issue to go untreated, and often worsen.


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## Brightbay (25 July 2012)

I was amazed my navicular laminitic completed a 3ft HT and came 3rd when not even a year previous I was sobbing into a pillow at the prospect of losing him. Please forgive me for being evangelical. I am just so happy and wanted to share it. Isn't that what forums are for?
		
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This has made me smile, thank you for sharing your success story 

I also use hoof boots.  I work it in terms of time vs need.  My horse does not need his hooves protected in any way while in his field, or while riding out on grass or tarmac.  This consitutes at least 22 hours out of 24, and sometimes 24 hours out of 24.  For the odd two hour hack when we might cross sharp gravel or large stones, he wears boots. The hoof boots do not in any way affect his hoof, and the wear and tear from the road and the field help stimulate growth/keep the hooves in trim.

In contrast, he would be wearing shoes 24 hours out of 24, but would only actually need them between 2 and 4 hours a week. The shoes - as is often pointed out by farriers - are a "necessary evil" - they don't improve feet, they simply enable them to cope with the four hours in a week when we travel over rougher surfaces.

In terms of cost/benefit, for me the boots win every time.  I am certainly open to arguments that will show me that shoes are more cost effective and better for my horses feet, and looking forward to hearing them


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## Cortez (25 July 2012)

Diddleydoo said:



			Sorry for the hijack, and not just a question for you Faracat but.....

If the horse is footsore out of shoes, surely the horse is still footsore in shoes it's just the shoes masking it?

And if that is correct in what way are the shoes helping the horse?  Is it not just the owner who feels better because the horse appears comfortable?
		
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Why are the shoes "masking" soreness? Are they not perhaps protecting the horse from what was making him sore? If, for instance, the reason the horse was in pain was because the frog, or toe, or sole, or whatever, was coming into contact with the ground and the shoe protected the area or raised it out of painful contact, then surely the horse was no longer in pain? How is that "masking"?


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## AngieandBen (25 July 2012)

horserider said:



			But don't barefooters just slap hoof boots on instead ? The answer is to increase workload and adjust the diet. A footy barefoot horse is uncomfortable in its free time too, not just when its being ridden unless its fortunate enough to be turned out on very forgiving ground.
		
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Not all, and most just use them if hacking on stoney ground, and just the fronts usually;  If they are sound on the roads, why wouldn't they be sound on forgiving ground?

Nobody wants to ride a footy horse whether shod or not, we all want our horses to be comfortable.  

So if a shod horse is footy without shoes aren't they footy with them?


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## Cortez (25 July 2012)

Pale Rider said:



			There must be acres of print now about the benefits of barefoot, the reasons for it. Equally the only benefit of shoes is that they hide what's really going on. Yet people still trot out the same stupid reasons for shoeing. Does nobody read and understand how feet work, why do we have to go over and over this stuff. Thick or what.
		
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This is quite rude. And, whilst I have read quite a lot of the bumpf created by enthusiastic advocates, I have yet to read much truely scientific study on the subject.


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## AngieandBen (25 July 2012)

Cortez said:



			Why are the shoes "masking" soreness? Are they not perhaps protecting the horse from what was making him sore? If, for instance, the reason the horse was in pain was because the frog, or toe, or sole, or whatever, was coming into contact with the ground and the shoe protected the area or raised it out of painful contact, then surely the horse was no longer in pain? How is that "masking"?
		
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Because the horse shouldn't be in pain to start with?!


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## Arzada (25 July 2012)

horserider said:



			But don't barefooters just slap hoof boots on instead ? A footy barefoot horse is uncomfortable in its free time too, not just when its being ridden unless its fortunate enough to be turned out on very forgiving ground.
		
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But is it? I'm not footy on carpet or tarmac but I would be over many other surfaces because my feet don't go out on them often enough so I protect my unconditioned feet by wearing shoes/boots. Pete Ramey has conditioned his feet so he can go over anything but I haven't the time or the inclination so I'm happy to be barefoot at home and wear footwear elsewhere. 

How do I put in a smiley icon?


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## quirky (25 July 2012)

AngieandBen said:



			As the saying goes, all horses can become barefoot but not all owners can.  Its certainly not for the quick fix, its a long term thing,  depends if want/can fit it into your lifestyle.
		
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This twaddle is propogated by barefoot people who want to set themselves apart and like to make us think they walk a higher ground than the rest of us shod horse owners 

Twenty odd years back, I liveried at a riding school. Every last one of her 40+ horses were without shoes. Were they treated any different to those liveries who chose to have shoes? No. Same turn out paddocks, same forage/hard feed and probably more work than livery horses. And get this, they were all seen by the same farrier 

I have had fully shod , fronts only and completely unshod horses. Have any of those had "special" treatment? No. Have any of them had any dire foot problems? No.

Maybe I have been lucky by not having to change my lifestyle to keep an unshod horse


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## Cortez (25 July 2012)

AngieandBen said:



			Because the horse shouldn't be in pain to start with?!
		
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But that just isn't a sensible answer - some horses ARE IN PAIN; IT IS WHY THEY ARE LIMPING!


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## Auslander (25 July 2012)

Pale Rider said:



			There must be acres of print now about the benefits of barefoot, the reasons for it. Equally the only benefit of shoes is that they hide what's really going on. Yet people still trot out the same stupid reasons for shoeing. Does nobody read and understand how feet work, why do we have to go over and over this stuff. Thick or what.
		
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Constructive as ever.

My horse has been unshod for a month now. He didn't wear hinds and the quality of his hind feet was far better than the fronts, so I took the opportunity, while he wasn't in much work to take the fronts off and see how he went. He was footy over sharp road planings for two days, and sound everywhere else - and now he is fine over every surface. He was already on a high fibre, molasses free diet, and I haven't supplemented him at this point (he's already on plenty for his joints!) 

His front feet have improved already, so it obviously suits him to be au naturel. I'm happy to keep him unshod as long as he's comfortable. I will not become evangelical about it, or condemn anyone who keeps their horse shod. I'm all for doing what suits the individual.


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## AngieandBen (25 July 2012)

Cortez said:



			But that just isn't a sensible answer - some horses ARE IN PAIN; IT IS WHY THEY ARE LIMPING!
		
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?! Wouldn't it be best to find out why they are in pain then?!

And since when did shoeing stop a horse from limping?

And don't use capitals unless you are shouting


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## TwoStroke (25 July 2012)

Cortez said:



			This is quite rude. And, whilst I have read quite a lot of the bumpf created by enthusiastic advocates, I have yet to read much truely scientific study on the subject.
		
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As opposed to all the scientific evidence on the subject of shoeing? Pmsl!


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## AngieandBen (25 July 2012)

quirky said:



			This twaddle is propogated by barefoot people who want to set themselves apart and like to make us think they walk a higher ground than the rest of us shod horse owners 

Twenty odd years back, I liveried at a riding school. Every last one of her 40+ horses were without shoes. Were they treated any different to those liveries who chose to have shoes? No. Same turn out paddocks, same forage/hard feed and probably more work than livery horses. And get this, they were all seen by the same farrier 

I have had fully shod , fronts only and completely unshod horses. Have any of those had "special" treatment? No. Have any of them had any dire foot problems? No.

Maybe I have been lucky by not having to change my lifestyle to keep an unshod horse 

Click to expand...

Well maybe you have


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## Pale Rider (25 July 2012)

Cortez, why do you constantly drone on about shoes, they don't cure anything, mask a whole load of issues and make things far worse in the long run.
Why wouldn't you want to put things right.
Why would you advocate such a detrimental short cut.


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## CBFan (25 July 2012)

the watcher said:



			I've been here (on this forum) a very long time. That doesn't make me special, or my opinion especially valuable, but it does mean that I have seen some trends and changes over the years.

The one that is currently troubling me a little is the whole barefoot thing; hardly a day passes without some poor owner *seeking reassurance about the right diet, whether their 'transitioning' is going correctly, where to source the right hoof boots, how to locate the right trimmer.* I say 'poor owner', the reality of course is poor horse, those horses that had been perfectly happy for years working in shoes whose owners have decided that being unshod is somehow preferable.

I'm not against unshod horses, if a horse can work happily without shoes I'm all for it, I have unshod horses myself, and one with just fronts and just one with a full set of shoes (believe me, he wouldn't cope at all without them)

However, if your horse being unshod (or barefoot if that is what you want to call it) means that you have to* be mail ordering special minerals to keep them comfortable, ordering in hoof boots, agonising over their diet and lfestyle*.....you have to ask yourself whether you are actually doing the right thing and whether it wouldn't be kinder to just nail a set of shoes on...

wouldn't you?
		
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I have highlighted two of your points above which I feel can be looked at from a different perspective. The first, I actually see as someone trying to EDUCATE themselves on how to let their horse lead a healthier lifestyle.

The second, regarding feeding - I would much rather someone ordered special minerals (i.e. a bespoke diet for their horse) off the internet than just buing mass produced / marketed / pushed by 'feeding expert' sales reps feed products from the feed store because they are the latest 'in' feed to give poor doer / laminitic / superdooper competition ponies which in reality only ever do 2 hours hard work a week...

It all comes down to education I guess and my experience of the shoeless / barefoot way has been so enlightening it makes me shudder to think of the pain I could have  inadvertantly inflicted on my sugar sensitive horse by the simple act of putting shoes on him...


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## FabioandFreddy (25 July 2012)

Aren't some horses footsore though purely from being barefoot? No underlying issue? I'm not saying all but i dare bet there are some! 

I also had our barefoot horse done by our normal farrier. They train for far longer than a lot of barefoot trimmers so i would rather trust them with my horses hooves.


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## tallyho! (25 July 2012)

quirky said:



			This twaddle is propogated by barefoot people who want to set themselves apart and like to make us think they walk a higher ground than the rest of us shod horse owners 

Twenty odd years back, I liveried at a riding school. Every last one of her 40+ horses were without shoes. Were they treated any different to those liveries who chose to have shoes? No. Same turn out paddocks, same forage/hard feed and probably more work than livery horses. And get this, they were all seen by the same farrier 

I have had fully shod , fronts only and completely unshod horses. Have any of those had "special" treatment? No. Have any of them had any dire foot problems? No.

Maybe I have been lucky by not having to change my lifestyle to keep an unshod horse 

Click to expand...

You could say that you are setting yourself apart from the many that don't find it as easy as you do. Aren't you the one being evangelical about the management of your horses? Yet see that it's ok to belittle others whilst at the same time lording it over everyone about how wonderful things are for you? Not just you but the unshod mafia that see fit to bash barefooters. Saying things like we walk a higher ground. Christ what set of glasses do you wear to see people in this way? Chip on shoulder much?

Well excuse me for not being around 40 years ago to witness amazing marvels of unshod horse keeping. What a shame I have to watch my horse struggle in shoes for years while my experts tell me this needs doing and he needs these drugs and I need to pay £6000 so he can live. All I needed to do was be around back in the day when unshod was what people did. It's such a shame I did not know you quirky. Could have saved myself a fortune!

What a fool i must be.


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## TwoStroke (25 July 2012)

FabioandFreddy said:



			Aren't some horses footsore though purely from being barefoot? No underlying issue? I'm not saying all but i dare bet there are some! 

I also had our barefoot horse done by our normal farrier. They train for far longer than a lot of barefoot trimmers so i would rather trust them with my horses hooves.
		
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No, of course not . Soreness is always caused by something. Sometimes the specific cause/trigger can't be isolated, or is too difficult to control (so the owner should shoe), but there _is_ a cause.


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## MerrySherryRider (25 July 2012)

AngieandBen said:



			Not all, and most just use them if hacking on stoney ground, and just the fronts usually;  If they are sound on the roads, why wouldn't they be sound on forgiving ground?

Nobody wants to ride a footy horse whether shod or not, we all want our horses to be comfortable.  

So if a shod horse is footy without shoes aren't they footy with them?
		
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Yes, some use them for stoney ground, but often I see them used routinely for roadwork. Why would an unshod, well managed horse be footy on stony ground unless they'd been off work for some reason ?
 Mine are happy on all terrain, only had one that had to have fronts on because her feet wore down. Yes, I know barefooters say this is impossible but as she didn't have the same environment as the much revered Mustang travelling a 100 miles to watering holes she was at a disadvantage.


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## FabioandFreddy (25 July 2012)

TwoStroke said:



			No, of course not . Soreness is always caused by something. Sometimes the specific cause/trigger can't be isolated, or is too difficult to control (so the owner should shoe), but there _is_ a cause.
		
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Like stoney ground?!


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## quirky (25 July 2012)

tallyho! said:



			You could say that you are setting yourself apart from the many that don't find it as easy as you do. Aren't you the one being evangelical about the management of your horses? Yet see that it's ok to belittle others whilst at the same time lording it over everyone about how wonderful things are for you? Not just you but the unshod mafia that see fit to bash barefooters.

Well excuse me for not being around 40 years ago to witness amazing marvels of unshod horse keeping. What a shame I have to watch my horse struggle in shoes for years while my experts tell me this needs doing and he needs these drugs and I need to pay £6000 so he can live. All I needed to do was be around back in the day when unshod was what people did. It's such a shame I did not know you quirky. Could have saved myself a fortune!

What a fool i must be.
		
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Nope, I'm not being evangelical at all about my horses management.
I don't mean to belittle, on the contrary, it is the barefoot mob who belittle shod owners by telling them they can't/won't look after their horses properly.
I'm failing to see how I could've saved you money , I was under the impression that these highly trained (in 3 weeks ) barefoot pods didn't charge much.

Now, if you'd like to know what all the RS ponies were fed on, I'd be more than happy to tell you BUT  I know the barefoot mafia's toes would curl if they knew


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## MerrySherryRider (25 July 2012)

quirky said:



			This twaddle is propogated by barefoot people who want to set themselves apart and like to make us think they walk a higher ground than the rest of us shod horse owners 

Twenty odd years back, I liveried at a riding school. Every last one of her 40+ horses were without shoes. Were they treated any different to those liveries who chose to have shoes? No. Same turn out paddocks, same forage/hard feed and probably more work than livery horses. And get this, they were all seen by the same farrier 

I have had fully shod , fronts only and completely unshod horses. Have any of those had "special" treatment? No. Have any of them had any dire foot problems? No.

Maybe I have been lucky by not having to change my lifestyle to keep an unshod horse 

Click to expand...


Excellent post and very much my experience.


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## nikCscott (25 July 2012)

I thought twice about reading thread as new what it would be like :roll eyes:

Can i say 1st- YAY bloody YAY to bring back the term "unshod" the "other" makes my skin crawl!

I have 1x unshod constantly hacking around the lanes / jumping and Pony club- perfectly happy and can't see ever having to shoe.

WB however is very short coupled so pulls shoes regularly he also has a little foot (hence the nickname Nemo) which is the shoe comes off there he is incredibly sore, I have spoken to my farrier (who has improved his feet from a complete mess to great hooves) and also a barefoot guy to see if removing the shoes would be beneficial i.e. stop him pulling them off and both said not to- his sole was too thin and the pigeon toe on his small foot meant that it wasn't suitable for him. He is double clipped all around and like others here I can spot and unbalanced foot a mile off now through what I have learnt over the passed 18 months. I wish he could be unshod then I could afford the best tack and rugs for him!

Should add I have no school and only lanes to hack on only get on a surface when i compete.


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## TwoStroke (25 July 2012)

FabioandFreddy said:



			Like stoney ground?!
		
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Er no. A strong, healthy, well conditioned foot would not struggle with stoney ground. My youngster doesn't struggle, and he even has some pathologies. Problems with stones are usually due to inadequate sole depth and/or inflammation of the sole corium.


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## rhino (25 July 2012)

Pale Rider said:



			Does nobody read and understand how feet work, why do we have to go over and over this stuff. Thick or what.
		
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tallyho! said:



			Aren't you the one being evangelical about the management of your horses? Yet see that it's ok to belittle others whilst at the same time lording it over everyone about how wonderful things are for you? Not just you but the unshod mafia that see fit to bash barefooters. Saying things like we walk a higher ground. Christ what set of glasses do you wear to see people in this way? Chip on shoulder much?
		
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There we go; two very good reasons why a lot of people are fed up of the barefoot stuff on here. Just rude, and the same attitude underpins many of the barefoot threads, much to the detriment of the people who are actually trying to help people.


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## maisie06 (25 July 2012)

Totally agree with OP. I have one horse shod - he needs it and is uncomfortable without especially on our flinty tracks and one who is unshod. The unshod one has not long been broken and is currently doing fine despite not being on any special food or supplements, in fact at the moment he is on nothing but good grass!! If he needs shoes in the future he will get them. I am not going to be bullied into keeping him barefoot, I bought him for a job and if he needs shoes to do that job so be it.


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## tallyho! (25 July 2012)

quirky said:



			Nope, I'm not being evangelical at all about my horses management.
I don't mean to belittle, on the contrary, it is the barefoot mob who belittle shod owners by telling them they can't/won't look after their horses properly.
I'm failing to see how I could've saved you money , I was under the impression that these highly trained (in 3 weeks ) barefoot pods didn't charge much.

Now, if you'd like to know what all the RS ponies were fed on, I'd be more than happy to tell you BUT  I know the barefoot mafia's toes would curl if they knew 

Click to expand...

Save money on shoes.

Never mind.

I don't need to know ponies diets. I seem to have mine on a fairly basic diet and they are doing well.

No thanks to the moaners like you but more thanks to the people who bothered to reply to my posts about my barefoot transition. The barefooters helped me. Those who were against it, just ridiculed me. Just like you are doing now, further segregating yourself form any meaningful input that offers any kind of help because you don't want to be seen to be part of barefoot. It sounds like you have plenty of knowledge but rather than offer some, you would rather ridicule me for having a barefoot horse because you believe we are all idiots who serve to make other people feel stupid for shoeing.

I do care though because I don't like to see helpful people being called names just for believing in something.


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## PandorasJar (25 July 2012)

FabioandFreddy said:



			Aren't some horses footsore though purely from being barefoot? No underlying issue? I'm not saying all but i dare bet there are some!
		
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That would be the surface problem. No horse is simply footsore through being barefoot however the underlying cause may mean that it can't go barefoot. 

Pan


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## FabioandFreddy (25 July 2012)

TwoStroke said:



			Er no. A strong, healthy, well conditioned foot would not struggle with stoney ground. My youngster doesn't struggle, and he even has some pathologies. Problems with stones are usually due to inadequate sole depth and/or inflammation of the sole corium.
		
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So essentially there shouldn't be a need for hoof boots then?


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## Palindrome (25 July 2012)

quirky said:



			This twaddle is propogated by barefoot people who want to set themselves apart and like to make us think they walk a higher ground than the rest of us shod horse owners 

Twenty odd years back, I liveried at a riding school. Every last one of her 40+ horses were without shoes. Were they treated any different to those liveries who chose to have shoes? No. Same turn out paddocks, same forage/hard feed and probably more work than livery horses. And get this, they were all seen by the same farrier 

I have had fully shod , fronts only and completely unshod horses. Have any of those had "special" treatment? No. Have any of them had any dire foot problems? No.

Maybe I have been lucky by not having to change my lifestyle to keep an unshod horse 

Click to expand...

The fact that they were working a lot is the very reason why they didn't have any problem barefoot. I wouldn't say you have been lucky with no hoof problems, I would say you have carefully chosen the horses you bought and they were healthy. 
People generally turn to barefoot when their horses are lame/injured or they can't shoe anymore, that's why a lot of people ask advice about rehab. Of course, nothing wrong with keeping a healthy horse unshod, but there is generally not a lot to talk about. Pulling the shoes and correctly rehabing has saved the live of many horses that have had a diagnostic of PTS by vets, as well as brought back to soundness lame horses.


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## TwoStroke (25 July 2012)

FabioandFreddy said:



			So essentially there shouldn't be a need for hoof boots then?
		
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Not in such a foot, no. In a foot which has a thin sole/inflammation or a myriad of other pathologies, hoof boots can be invaluable.


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## Palindrome (25 July 2012)

FabioandFreddy said:



			So essentially there shouldn't be a need for hoof boots then?
		
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If all horses were strong and healthy, there souldn't be a need for vets either. The world is not perfect. The benefits of boots is that there are like trainers that you put on when you need them and you can take them off whenever. They are padded, absorb shocks and are not rigid like a piece of metal. People say shoes must be good because they have been in use for a long time, however I wouldn't want a surgeon or a dentist from the Middle-Age working on me, even though they might have used their techniques for centuries.


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## quirky (25 July 2012)

tallyho! said:



			Save money on shoes.

Never mind.

I don't need to know ponies diets. I seem to have mine on a fairly basic diet and they are doing well.

No thanks to the moaners like you but more thanks to the people who bothered to reply to my posts about my barefoot transition. The barefooters helped me. Those who were against it, just ridiculed me. Just like you are doing now, further segregating yourself form any meaningful input that offers any kind of help because you don't want to be seen to be part of barefoot. It sounds like you have plenty of knowledge but rather than offer some, you would rather ridicule me for having a barefoot horse because you believe we are all idiots who serve to make other people feel stupid for shoeing.

I do care though because I don't like to see helpful people being called names just for believing in something.
		
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I think you are being a little sensitive ..... like many a barefoot horse so it seems 
I haven't moaned, I haven't ridiculed you, I haven't segregated myself and finally at no point have I called you an idiot.
What I will call you though is rude sadly.

I fail to see why you've taken umbrage with me but you carry on if it makes you feel better 

Funnily enough, there are people who agree with my post, you going to have a pop at them too


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## tallyho! (25 July 2012)

Well then I can call you rude too for your original post as you were insinuating all barefooters are full of twaddle as you call it.

Yes, I take umbrage. I don't see the difference between you calling the barefooters names and saying all the barefooters do is serve to make shod people feel small.

THAT is twaddle in my eyes. If you don't like barefoot why do you bother posting... Same goes to all others who agree with you.

Sorry if my taking offence makes you laugh but I don't see why you should take the mickey out people who struggle to get it right for their horse. That was me at one point. We all have to learn.


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## TigerTail (25 July 2012)

the watcher said:



			However, if your horse being unshod (or barefoot if that is what you want to call it) means that you have to be mail ordering special minerals to keep them comfortable, ordering in hoof boots, agonising over their diet and lfestyle.....you have to ask yourself whether you are actually doing the right thing and whether it wouldn't be kinder to just nail a set of shoes on...

wouldn't you?
		
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Um kinder to whom? The horse? I wouldnt fancy having nails banged into my horses feet if they were sore already. I actually wouldnt fancy the farriers chances of succeeding either 

 To the owner? Yeh sure it would be easier to bury my head in the sand and ignore the issues my horse clearly has but its only going to bite me in the arse later.......

Having done a lot of research into shoeing and exactly how tiny a gap they have to get the nail in without impinging on live tissue and seen how a fence rail splits eventually once its been nailed to the post and seen how much a horses hoof should flex as it rolls through and cant with a rigid structure nailed on I wont be shoeing anytime soon, especially out of 'easyness' for me. How selfish.


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## rhino (25 July 2012)

tallyho! said:



			If you don't like barefoot why do you bother posting... Same goes to all others who agree with you.
		
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This particular thread is a discussion about the shod/unshod debate, no?
It is also a public forum so people are free to continue to post as they see fit, perhaps there are other forums you could use if you don't want discussions to be allowed?


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## quirky (25 July 2012)

tallyho! said:



			THAT is twaddle in my eyes. If you don't like barefoot why do you bother posting... Same goes to all others who agree with you.
		
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Ooh, when did you become HHO police, deciding when and what people can post on?

Please, anybody who agrees with me, do not post on this thread,  tallyho! says so


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## Cortez (25 July 2012)

Oh, this is getting good now! So anyone who doesn't agree with you is thick and/or stupid? Perhaps it's just that the arguments being put forward are just not very good? Why, oh why cannot people just realise that NO system is right 100% of the time for 100% of horses? There is not just "1" way that suits all horses. The problem with evangelism is that it ultimately cannot deal with the fact that not everybody is going to agree with you, no matter how "right" you feel you are.


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## CBFan (25 July 2012)

FabioandFreddy said:



			Aren't some horses footsore though purely from being barefoot? No underlying issue? I'm not saying all but i dare bet there are some! 

I also had our barefoot horse done by our normal farrier. They train for far longer than a lot of barefoot trimmers so i would rather trust them with my horses hooves.
		
Click to expand...

1) No - horses weren't born with shoes on, and before you say 'but they weren't born to be ridden either' no, they weren't but in nature they walk, trot and canter many tens of miles more on a daily basis than the majority of us ask of them when they are being ridden... They should therefore be able to manahe fine without shoes on with the correct management - which, in the majority of cases means adressing the diet.  I am of the firm belief that if a horse is footsore when barefoot there is indeed an underlying issue that hasn't been identified. Unfortunately, given that the majority of us are forced to keep our horses in a certain way, generally governed by livery yard set ups, it can be very hard to identify and adress those issues.

2) that is your opinion, which you are entitled to but many of us have turned to 'barefoot trimmers' after farriers have failed to help us keep our horses sound and barefoot in work. All decisions with the management of my horse are thoroughly considered and not undertaken on a whim or through peer pressure....


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## TwoStroke (25 July 2012)

Cortez said:



			Oh, this is getting good now! So anyone who doesn't agree with you is thick and/or stupid? Perhaps it's just that the arguments being put forward are just not very good? Why, oh why cannot people just realise that NO system is right 100% of the time for 100% of horses? There is not just "1" way that suits all horses. The problem with evangelism is that it ultimately cannot deal with the fact that not everybody is going to agree with you, no matter how "right" you feel you are.
		
Click to expand...

I really, really can't understand why this argument is rolled out in every shod v  barefoot debate. Some people seem obsessed with the idea that barefooters think barefoot is better 100% of the time. I have _never_ said that. I do not know any other barefooters who have _ever_ said that.

Please stop using this as an argument against us, it is factually incorrect.


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## Cortez (25 July 2012)

And yet whenever anyone "gives in" and shoes their horse all the barefoot people jump on them like a ton of bricks amid accusations of "not addressing the underlying issues" and "masking" the pain with shoes, and on, and on, and on........


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## Ranyhyn (25 July 2012)

I just want a useable horse.

Where do I fit in?!


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## tallyho! (25 July 2012)

Sorry Rhino and quirky, I didn't know I was arguing about agreeing with me!

I thought I was being defensive? As its a forum, I am allowed aren't I? Rhino should know, she knows about all that kind of stuff. 

You can post what you like according to me but when you offend me, I can post back and say why.


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## Cahill (25 July 2012)

when i do lots of road-work i have them shod,if i am not doin so much,i have the shoes taken off.
never had the slightest problem,have a good farrier,never worried about diet and feet and have trotted miles and have never had soreness.

amazing thngs,hooves 

also have bought ponies with crap feet that have come good in no time.


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## Hedwards (25 July 2012)

the watcher said:



			I've been here (on this forum) a very long time. That doesn't make me special, or my opinion especially valuable, but it does mean that I have seen some trends and changes over the years.

The one that is currently troubling me a little is the whole barefoot thing; hardly a day passes without some poor owner seeking reassurance about the right diet, whether their 'transitioning' is going correctly, where to source the right hoof boots, how to locate the right trimmer. I say 'poor owner', the reality of course is poor horse, those horses that had been perfectly happy for years working in shoes whose owners have decided that being unshod is somehow preferable.

I'm not against unshod horses, if a horse can work happily without shoes I'm all for it, I have unshod horses myself, and one with just fronts and just one with a full set of shoes (believe me, he wouldn't cope at all without them)

However, if your horse being unshod (or barefoot if that is what you want to call it) means that you have to be mail ordering special minerals to keep them comfortable, ordering in hoof boots, agonising over their diet and lfestyle.....you have to ask yourself whether you are actually doing the right thing and whether it wouldn't be kinder to just nail a set of shoes on...

wouldn't you?
		
Click to expand...


Until very recently I would agree with you, tried to go barefoot/unshod (on recomendation of my farrier) failed... in the crappy weather now left with a horse that has pulled 4 shoes off the same foot in 4 weeks (a foot that she has had concussive lami in with significant pedal bone rotation) I'm now left with no choice but to buy some boots, we cant shoe the foot at the moment, she's done too much damage, but is hopping lame on uneaven concrete without any protection, so boots to get from stable to field (in the field and on her rubber matting she's fine) and hope we can pursuade the hoof to grow good and strong going forwards... (she has always been unshod behind and absolutely fine, and her other foreleg coped fine when we initially tried barefoot/unshod...)


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## Cortez (25 July 2012)

Cahill said:



			when i do lots of road-work i have them shod,if i am not doin so much,i have the shoes taken off.
never had the slightest problem,have a good farrier,never worried about diet and feet and have trotted miles and have never had soreness.

amazing thngs,hooves 

also have bought ponies with crap feet that have come good in no time.
		
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Oh thank the gods! A voice of reason!


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## TwoStroke (25 July 2012)

Cortez said:



			And yet whenever anyone "gives in" and shoes their horse all the barefoot people jump on them like a ton of bricks amid accusations of "not addressing the underlying issues" and "masking" the pain with shoes, and on, and on, and on........
		
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I know of several people who have shod their barefoot horses for the grass growing seasons because they can't get on top of the carbs. It's not a problem - its done with full knowledge of the underlying causes, and after an attempt has been made to resolve them. Those people haven't been jumped on by anyone - quite the contrary, they are supported for making the right decision for their horse at that time.


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## MerrySherryRider (25 July 2012)

TwoStroke said:



			I really, really can't understand why this argument is rolled out in every shod v  barefoot debate. Some people seem obsessed with the idea that barefooters think barefoot is better 100% of the time. I have _never_ said that. I do not know any other barefooters who have _ever_ said that.

Please stop using this as an argument against us, it is factually incorrect.
		
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Probably because the barefooters tell anyone who doesn't agree to stop posting. They are constantly telling owners who shoe that they either don't care or are thick. (check the posts.) 
 Not all of us normal owners remove shoes when the horse has a problem. Some of us just get on with it. Perhaps we're even quite good at managing our horses prophylactically.

The term barefoot has become cringeworthy thanks to a small very vocal group on here who have a little knowledge and not much experience.


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## cptrayes (25 July 2012)

Cortez said:



			And yet whenever anyone "gives in" and shoes their horse all the barefoot people jump on them like a ton of bricks amid accusations of "not addressing the underlying issues" and "masking" the pain with shoes, and on, and on, and on........
		
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I wish you would stop using such over-emotive expressions as "jumps on them like a ton of bricks". No barefooter has ever done that.

And the fact is, if you have a horse who is not sound without shoes, who immediately goes sound in shoes, you have indeed not addressed the underlying issues that made it unable to cope without shoes and the pain has clearly been masked. That's what "immediately sound" means, it can mean nothing else.

Let's take your own case, for example. You posted on two threads supporting two posters whose horses had been long term sound barefoot  but were recently footie. You told them that you also had recently had to shoe your mare.

But much later on, on another thread, you explained that the reason you had to shoe your mare is that she is a working film horse who had recently had a sharp increase in workload, which has long been documented as one of the things that cause a horse to need to be shod. And in your case was a complete necessity which no barefoot argued against. (though after half a bottle of wine one night I did compare it to treating your horse as a machine, which was probably a little strong, so sorry for that )

You did not address the issue, which was a too rapid increase in work for the feet to cope. Your horse became immediately sound when it had been sore, so the shoes masked the pain.

These are facts, as is the fact that you had no viable option, given that your horse works for a living and you have bills to pay. No-one, especially not me, is "jumping on you like a ton of bricks", though I suspect that you and others are very likely to interpret it that way.


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## tallyho! (25 July 2012)

rhino said:



			This particular thread is a discussion about the shod/unshod debate, no?
It is also a public forum so people are free to continue to post as they see fit, perhaps there are other forums you could use if you don't want discussions to be allowed?
		
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Cortez said:



			Oh, this is getting good now! So anyone who doesn't agree with you is thick and/or stupid? Perhaps it's just that the arguments being put forward are just not very good? Why, oh why cannot people just realise that NO system is right 100% of the time for 100% of horses? There is not just "1" way that suits all horses. The problem with evangelism is that it ultimately cannot deal with the fact that not everybody is going to agree with you, no matter how "right" you feel you are.
		
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I think I realise cortez thank you very much. It's not about right or wrong. It's about having the respect not to call people names while we have this discussion!

That is what I am getting het up about!! Not whether or not you can post. Not about if horse can manage or not.


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## Ranyhyn (25 July 2012)

Sometimes I do wonder, if this whole barefoot thing has added a new level of angst for already angsty owners about whether they are doing the right thing for their horse or not.

I'd never really come across it until my horse had an abscess due to me not noticing bad farriery, last Nov.  Before then it wasn't really something that had occurred to me, like someone said above, if you rode it lots over hard ground - shoe it!

Now you come on here and there's new knowledge every day about barefoot, techniques, things to try, food to feed etc etc.  I cannot deny that my horses soundness has improved while she hasn't had shoes on HOWEVER until I put shoes back ON I wont actually know whether that's just because of poor balance and diet previously or the prescence of the shoes themselves.

I paid a lot of money for my horse, I pay a lot of money for her upkeep, I bought her to work.  If putting shoes on her will make her work then that's what will happen.  It may well be that she COULD have learnt to cope with being unshod over a longer period, but quite frankly I haven't the time nor inclination to give her more time.


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## cptrayes (25 July 2012)

horserider said:



			Probably because the barefooters tell anyone who doesn't agree to stop posting.
		
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no we don't



horserider said:



			They are constantly telling owners who shoe that they either don't care or are thick. (check the posts.)
		
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No we aren't 



horserider said:



			Not all of us normal owners remove shoes when the horse has a problem. Some of us just get on with it. Perhaps we're even quite good at managing our horses prophylactically.
		
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If I understand you correctly, can you tell me what possible advantage you can see in paying for shoes and drugs when the horse can heal itself without?  Especially when the cure rate for foot lameness is so much lower with remedial shoeing and prophylaxis?




horserider said:



			The term barefoot has become cringeworthy thanks to a 
small very vocal group on here who have a little knowledge and not much experience.
		
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Nope. There is a lovely body of people on here now who know what they are talking about and have been responsible between them for quite a number of horses which have returned to work instead of being pensioned off or shot. 

If taking this kind of abuse from posters like you, is the penalty for helping those owners, bring it on  !


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## tallyho! (25 July 2012)

horserider said:



			Probably because the barefooters tell anyone who doesn't agree to stop posting. They are constantly telling owners who shoe that they either don't care or are thick. (check the posts.) 
 Not all of us normal owners remove shoes when the horse has a problem. Some of us just get on with it. Perhaps we're even quite good at managing our horses prophylactically.

The term barefoot has become cringeworthy thanks to a small very vocal group on here who have a little knowledge and not much experience.
		
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No I think you will find that is only ME!!! How does that make it ALL barefooters?

Oh and I do not tell "normal" owners they are thick.... Otherwise please prove.

Good for you for managing your horse. So the rest of us who can't manage and get problems should give up?

It's cringeworthy to the people who find it cringeworthy and as for knowledge versus experience, how much do you know about everyone on here? Who do you have in mind exactly?


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## TwoStroke (25 July 2012)

horserider said:



			Probably because the barefooters tell anyone who doesn't agree to stop posting. They are constantly telling owners who shoe that they either don't care or are thick. (check the posts.) 
 Not all of us normal owners remove shoes when the horse has a problem. Some of us just get on with it. Perhaps we're even quite good at managing our horses prophylactically.

The term barefoot has become cringeworthy thanks to a small very vocal group on here who have a little knowledge and not much experience.
		
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I think Tallyho said 'why do you bother posting?', which is hardly the same as 'I think you should stop posting' - you have only interpreted it that way because it suits your view point to do so.

I'm also fairly offended by your implication that I have little knowledge or experience; I don't see how you could know that. Though perhaps you weren't referring to me specifically - I'm not sure.


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## Cortez (25 July 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I wish you would stop using such over-emotive expressions as "jumps on them like a ton of bricks". No barefooter has ever done that.

And the fact is, if you have a horse who is not sound without shoes, who immediately goes sound in shoes, you have indeed not addressed the underlying issues that made it unable to cope without shoes and the pain has clearly been masked. That's what "immediately sound" means, it can mean nothing else.

Let's take your own case, for example. You posted on two threads supporting two posters whose horses had been long term sound barefoot  but were recently footie. You told them that you also had recently had to shoe your mare.

But much later on, on another thread, you explained that the reason you had to shoe your mare is that she is a working film horse who had recently had a sharp increase in workload, which has long been documented as one of the things that cause a horse to need to be shod. And in your case was a complete necessity which no barefoot argued against. (though after half a bottle of wine one night I did compare it to treating your horse as a machine, which was probably a little strong, so sorry for that )

You did not address the issue, which was a too rapid increase in work for the feet to cope. Your horse became immediately sound when it had been sore, so the shoes masked the pain.

These are facts, as is the fact that you had no viable option, given that your horse works for a living and you have bills to pay. No-one, especially not me, is "jumping on you like a ton of bricks", though I suspect that you and others are very likely to interpret it that way.
		
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I, however would interpret a horse that was lame before shoeing and not lame after shoeing as having had the pain removed - much as I would have if I ouchily walked across a stoney path in my soft little bare feet, put on my shoes and walked back over it without pain: not "masked", surely, but removed?


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## *hic* (25 July 2012)

I'm another one who shoes according to the horse. If the horse is in pain with the shoes off I feel it unfair to keep them like that and shoe them again. I prefer not to have shoes on - better safety and less cost for a start - but am aware that one cannot explain to a horse that it may take months and months of pain before things start to get better. I currently own five unshod horses and two shod ones. For a long time I had two Welshies both shod only in front. All my horses have shown remarkable levels of soundness gauged against others that I know of and read about, for which I am extremely grateful to the work of my farrier.


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## cptrayes (25 July 2012)

Cortez said:



			Why, oh why cannot people just realise that NO system is right 100% of the time for 100% of horses?
		
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Can you point me to the posters who say otherwise?  I'm personally on record from 2 years ago saying exactly that, but I am also unaware of any other posters in that time who do not agree that there are some horses and even more horse/owner combinations for which shoes are the right answer.


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## AngieandBen (25 July 2012)

BoolavogueDC said:



			Sometimes I do wonder, if this whole barefoot thing has added a new level of angst for already angsty owners about whether they are doing the right thing for their horse or not.

I'd never really come across it until my horse had an abscess due to me not noticing bad farriery, last Nov.  Before then it wasn't really something that had occurred to me, like someone said above, if you rode it lots over hard ground - shoe it!

Now you come on here and there's new knowledge every day about barefoot, techniques, things to try, food to feed etc etc.  I cannot deny that my horses soundness has improved while she hasn't had shoes on HOWEVER until I put shoes back ON I wont actually know whether that's just because of poor balance and diet previously or the prescence of the shoes themselves.

I paid a lot of money for my horse, I pay a lot of money for her upkeep, I bought her to work.  If putting shoes on her will make her work then that's what will happen.  It may well be that she COULD have learnt to cope with being unshod over a longer period, but quite frankly I haven't the time nor inclination to give her more time.
		
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This is what I meant when I said there are lots of horses that can go barefoot but not so many owners ie they need/want to work their horses and if that means shoeing them so that they are comforrtable then so be it


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## Ranyhyn (25 July 2012)

Cortez said:



			I, however would interpret a horse that was lame before shoeing and not lame after shoeing as having had the pain removed - much as I would have if I ouchily walked across a stoney path in my soft little bare feet, put on my shoes and walked back over it without pain: not "masked", surely, but removed?
		
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Seems like splitting hairs to me, masked or removed in this instance


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## rhino (25 July 2012)

BoolavogueDC said:



			Now you come on here and there's new knowledge every day about barefoot, techniques, things to try, food to feed etc etc.
		
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Theories, yes. Anecdotes, certainly. Not knowledge particularly though, which is why I worry when people take things as 'gospel'. As far as I am concerned, there is just not the research to say with 100% certainty some of the things that have been said about barefoot horses on this site, although I feel that it has been more balanced recently.


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## Cortez (25 July 2012)

Sorry, just havn't the time to keep on batting this about - got to go and ride my (unshod) horse now..........


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## Ranyhyn (25 July 2012)

AngieandBen said:



			This is what I meant when I said there are lots of horses that can go barefoot but not so many owners ie they need/want to work their horses and if that means shoeing them so that they are comforrtable then so be it
		
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Yep, I think sometimes people take that as a criticism maybe?  I don't.  You are damn right I want my horse to work  I'd love to be one of these lovely types who takes simple pleasure in knowing my horse is alive but I don't.  My simple pleasure is to ride and in order to be able to ride I need my horse comfortable - how I get there is much of a muchness to me, the end result is, I ride - I'm happy


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## Pale Rider (25 July 2012)

The difference being Cortez, is that you would be wearing boots on your own feet, not steel rings nailed into your toe.
Your analogy, is erroneous and stupid.


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## TwoStroke (25 July 2012)

rhino said:



			Theories, yes. Anecdotes, certainly. Not knowledge particularly though, which is why I worry when people take things as 'gospel'. As far as I am concerned, there is just not the research to say with 100% certainty some of the things that have been said about barefoot horses on this site, although I feel that it has been more balanced recently.
		
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What makes me chuckle though is that there has been little/no scientific research done on shoeing, either. That is all anecdotal as well .


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## Ranyhyn (25 July 2012)

rhino said:



			Theories, yes. Anecdotes, certainly. Not knowledge particularly though, which is why I worry when people take things as 'gospel'. As far as I am concerned, there is just not the research to say with 100% certainty some of the things that have been said about barefoot horses on this site, although I feel that it has been more balanced recently.
		
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In fairness to the barefoot tribe though, isn't that true for a large proportion of the posts here?  
Isn't that hugely true for the horse-world in general maybe?


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## Ranyhyn (25 July 2012)

Pale Rider said:



			The difference being Cortez, is that you would be wearing boots on your own feet, not steel rings nailed into your toe.
Your analogy, is erroneous and stupid.
		
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My understanding was the nail doesn't go in your *toe*, it should be going into your toe-*nail*?  am I right am I wrong?


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## cptrayes (25 July 2012)

Cortez said:



			I, however would interpret a horse that was lame before shoeing and not lame after shoeing as having had the pain removed - much as I would have if I ouchily walked across a stoney path in my soft little bare feet, put on my shoes and walked back over it without pain: not "masked", surely, but removed?
		
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This is only arguing over semantics. The horse is unsound without shoes and sound with. If the shoes are removed again it  is unsound again. Nothing has been fixed by the shoes, just temporarily removed, masked, covered up, abated, whatever.

If the horse could instead have prevented from becoming unsound by a gradual build-up to a higher workload, then that would be my own preference over shoes. 

You were not in a position to do that, but that is no reason to feel that barefooters are criticising you, they are not.


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## Pale Rider (25 July 2012)

True, Booly, toe nail, just struggle with tiny keys on the phone, so tend not to be as precise as I should be, lol.


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## tallyho! (25 July 2012)

BoolavogueDC said:



			My understanding was the nail doesn't go in your *toe*, it should be going into your toe-*nail*?  am I right am I wrong?
		
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Neither actually...

It should pass up through the white line and into the quarters hoof wall... 

I am well up for splitting hairs... Too hot to do anything else...


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## rhino (25 July 2012)

TwoStroke said:



			What makes me chuckle though is that there has been little/no scientific research done on shoeing, either. That is all anecdotal as well .
		
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Absolutely. I don't think anyone claims any different though 



BoolavogueDC said:



			In fairness to the barefoot tribe though, isn't that true for a large proportion of the posts here?  
Isn't that hugely true for the horse-world in general maybe?
		
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I think there is a difference between someone saying 'I used this supplement/feed/drug etc. and it worked for my horse' and someone reeling off a whole list of supplements which have undergone _no_ scientific testing. As I've said before, human nutrition is a poorly researched area, and animal nutrition is unbelievably underfunded and poorly understood. I don't believe all the marketing from feed companies any more than I believe the nutritional advice being given on here, but at least commercially sold supplements should have undergone some safety testing...


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## tallyho! (25 July 2012)

rhino said:



			Absolutely. I don't think anyone claims any different though 



I think there is a difference between someone saying 'I used this supplement/feed/drug etc. and it worked for my horse' and someone reeling off a whole list of supplements which have undergone _no_ scientific testing. As I've said before, human nutrition is a poorly researched area, and animal nutrition is unbelievably underfunded and poorly understood. I don't believe all the marketing from feed companies any more than I believe the nutritional advice being given on here, but at least commercially sold supplements should have undergone some safety testing...
		
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Yes they have... Usually on cows and sheep first  no you are right, however, there are basics that one should know about but not everyone does. Myself included. I think it has got better since people have been pointing to forage testing and letting some professionals do it if not confident to do it yourself. There are a few with scientific backgrounds, who have been very good at pointing people in the right direction. 

What people choose to do with the info is up to them.


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## Ranyhyn (25 July 2012)

rhino said:



			Absolutely. I don't think anyone claims any different though 



I think there is a difference between someone saying 'I used this supplement/feed/drug etc. and it worked for my horse' and someone reeling off a whole list of supplements which have undergone _no_ scientific testing. As I've said before, human nutrition is a poorly researched area, and animal nutrition is unbelievably underfunded and poorly understood. I don't believe all the marketing from feed companies any more than I believe the nutritional advice being given on here, but at least commercially sold supplements should have undergone some safety testing...
		
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But isn't the over view that people are giving useless or potentially dangerous advice and isn't that the same for every sphere and a lot of posts here?

I'm no barefoot preacher, in fact my horse is being shod as soon as I foal and I'll happilly admit I can't be arsed trying to transition her, BUT I don't think this barefoot movement are alone in perhaps sharing things that are perhaps unsafe/unfounded.
Not that that makes it right I suppose...


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## Ranyhyn (25 July 2012)

tallyho! said:



			Neither actually...

It should pass up through the white line and into the quarters hoof wall... 

I am well up for splitting hairs... Too hot to do anything else...
		
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TY  
What I was getting at really though was it wasn't the best counter analogy from PR either, because something going through your toe suggests a lot of pain, which of course shoeing shouldn't do.
If done properly, I don't think..

Losing my guts here  

I have to say I have and continue to, find the whole thing really interesting, the arguments for and against etc.  I think it is interesting to imagine that _maybe_ we are sitting watching a change in the way people manage horses for the better?  Maybe that's a bit romantic but I haven't seen any great changes through my riding life that have significantly made a difference to how horses were kept.  As OP says it's been in the last year 1/2 that this seems to have taken off in a more mainstream fashion.

I do wonder if people sat round chatting, going through similar motions when someone thought up shoeing?


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## TwoStroke (25 July 2012)

rhino said:



			but at least commercially sold supplements should have undergone some safety testing...
		
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None of the supplements available supply any minerals in levels equal to or exceeding the established toxic doses... I think that's as much safety testing as any commercial supplement has. Do you really believe NAF et al spend a fortune testing their supps in vivo under lab conditions? Or any conditions? So long as they contain no controlled substances I think you'll find that anything goes, commercially or otherwise.


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## MerrySherryRider (25 July 2012)

cptrayes said:



			no we don't



No we aren't 



If I understand you correctly, can you tell me what possible advantage you can see in paying for shoes and drugs when the horse can heal itself without?  Especially when the cure rate for foot lameness is so much lower with remedial shoeing and prophylaxis?




Nope. There is a lovely body of people on here now who know what they are talking about and have been responsible between them for quite a number of horses which have returned to work instead of being pensioned off or shot. 

If taking this kind of abuse from posters like you, is the penalty for helping those owners, bring it on  !
		
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The term 'thick' and a poster being asked to stop posting are taken from barefoot posters. (I have also been asked to stop posting because I don't agree previously on other threads.)


You misunderstand me when I say caring prophylactically. Nothing to do with shoeing or not.
I meant that if, as an owner, you manage its wellbeing in such a way that problems are prevented, therefore avoiding many health issues. To be able to recognise signs of footiness or unbalanced trimming before it becomes a problem.
Of course some problems are bad luck but as a generalisation, good management means healthier horses.


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## rhino (25 July 2012)

TwoStroke said:



			None of the supplements available supply any minerals in levels equal to or exceeding the established toxic doses... I think that's as much safety testing as any commercial supplement has. Do you really believe NAF et al spend a fortune testing their supps in vivo under lab conditions? Or any conditions? So long as they contain no controlled substances I think you'll find that anything goes, commercially or otherwise.
		
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Feeding any one vitamin or mineral in isolation affects the uptake of others; often in ways that aren't fully understood. I don't think the toxic doses are particularly 'established' either, as said before the quality of research is poor. Plus the fact that all horses are different and will uptake and metabolise nutrients differently. The NRC 2007 was a step forward but still provides very few answers. NAF actually does carry out a reasonable amount of testing, far more than other mainstream feed companies. If you knew much about veterinary diagnostics you would know that in vivo research is strictly limited and monitored.

This doesn't take away from completely unqualified people advising completely untested supplements though. Also no comeback if it does have a negative effect on your horse, unlike with 'professional' supplements.

BDC quite possibly, but I think there is a real danger of 'you say something often enough and people will believe it is fact' with some of the advice given on the barefoot threads, far more than on other subjects. Using homeopathy or magnets, for instance, is unlikely to have a negative effect, even if it doesn't do any good, but oversupplementation can be dangerous. Is that the fault of the people offering advice? Perhaps not


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## diamondrockharvey (25 July 2012)

Diddleydoo said:



			Sorry for the hijack, and not just a question for you Faracat but.....

If the horse is footsore out of shoes, surely the horse is still footsore in shoes it's just the shoes masking it?

And if that is correct in what way are the shoes helping the horse?  Is it not just the owner who feels better because the horse appears comfortable?
		
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/\/\/\/\/\ THIS!


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## china (25 July 2012)

the watcher said:



			If you found that she wasn't coping with work unshod would you put shoes back on then?
		
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I have done this.... Mine was barefoot for 18 months and I re shod. Biggest mistake i made as he is now lame again and I'm now on a last chance decision and debating whether to send him to rockley farm. He has navicular and 'typical tb feet' . I should have left him alone and let nature take its course. He grew a whole new foot, strong and for the first time he could have normal nails in, but why did I nail shoes back on when they were so strong? and now the angles have started to change again on his feet and he has rings around them. He has held his shoes on, even in this horrific weather, but I honestly feel poo seeing him lame again, I should have left him alone.

I was one of those, he cannot cope without shoes, he cannot even cope when he loses a shoe! but when your running out of choices bar going for de-nerving and Tilden etc, which I believe is bordering morally wrong, you take the plunge to give your horse a chance, and that I did. It was heartbreaking seeing him sore and unable to pick his feet up for me on a flat concrete yard because the pressure was to much, but... That's not normal! He's a HORSE! His wild relatives and ancestors are made to cross rough terrain, and my domesticated horse that will have been shod since the age of two cannot even stand on a concrete yard? You start to ignore the research and you go with your common sense and what your horse tells you, you give them options of what terrain they wish to go on, do they get a choice about what is nailed to there foot? 

This is what crossed my mind when experiencing this process...
Put yourself in your horses position, going your life having metal shoes nailed to you foot, that's all you know, then the shoes come off, this strange sensation of your frog and foot touching the floor and this ignites all the blood and tissues in you foot as it expands and moves with the surface beneath it, what should be a natural feeling but yet it is completely alien to them, because we nail shoes to them......

I am not a barefoot inthusiast by any means, but I'm willing to try anything to make my horse comfortable, my youngster is shod infront, but would probably cope without, but there we go! Excuse the essay, but I'm feeling phooey for my needy and felt a little essay was required! Times like these make you think....really think.


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## Shanny_mare (25 July 2012)

Cortez said:



			Oh, this is getting good now! So anyone who doesn't agree with you is thick and/or stupid? Perhaps it's just that the arguments being put forward are just not very good? *Why, oh why cannot people just realise that NO system is right 100% of the time for 100% of horses? There is not just "1" way that suits all horses. *The problem with evangelism is that it ultimately cannot deal with the fact that not everybody is going to agree with you, no matter how "right" you feel you are.
		
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Why oh why can't people just accept this?

My horse is unshod, barefoot - call it what you will - and I use a *well trained* trimmer who has also taught me how to keep on top of her feet myself. This decision was made for me by the horse - she deliberately pulled off her shoes on fencing - even when they were replaced. I also supplement her minerals to balance her hay and she is on limited turnout (IR as well). Her feet were flat and flared when I started, partly caused by a bad farrier, but much better now. It suits me and her to not bother with shoes.

However, my daughter's horse is shod because she show jumps and feels that she needs shoes to stud. I  don't actually agree with her BUT that is her choice and her decision - apart from that, the horse is fed a good mineral supplement and seen by a good farrier who is improving what were a poor set of feet.

I prefer unshod/barefoot, daughter prefers shod - it's "horses for courses". What I do feel strongly about though is shoeing to hide an underlying problem - if a horse is lame without shoes, at least make sure that there are no major issues with the foot and trim before shoeing


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## Pale Rider (25 July 2012)

How many times has it been posted all over the internet, that tarmac roads are excellent for barefoot horses. Yet people here continue to put, 'because I do a lot of road work I shoe my horse, I am also an idiot'. 

I made the last bit up, lol.


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## quirky (25 July 2012)

Pale Rider said:



			How many times has it been posted all over the internet, that tarmac roads are excellent for barefoot horses. Yet people here continue to put, 'because I do a lot of road work I shoe my horse, I am also an idiot'. 

I made the last bit up, lol.
		
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Girl on our yard, had front shoes on only. Had those on due to injury and Liphook recommended shoeing ... not remedial but NB's.
Back feet were fine as a youngster and only just backed. When the roadwork was upped at 4, the mare ended up with very little toes on her back feet. If she had carried on shoeless, the mare would've been crippled. So, shoes went on and I think she is far from an idiot ... well she doesn't seem to be one, she could be a closet one of course


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## diamondrockharvey (25 July 2012)

horserider said:



			only had one that had to have fronts on because her feet wore down. Yes, I know barefooters say this is impossible but as she didn't have the same environment as the much revered Mustang travelling a 100 miles to watering holes she was at a disadvantage.
		
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I'd like to know more about this, I have been worried that my boy's footiness on stones may be to do with his feet having wore down too much??
He is completely sound on grass and fairly sound on smooth tarmac.
He has never had problems before and has been barefoot his whole life.


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## cptrayes (25 July 2012)

quirky said:



			Girl on our yard, had front shoes on only. Had those on due to injury and Liphook recommended shoeing ... not remedial but NB's.
Back feet were fine as a youngster and only just backed. When the roadwork was upped at 4, the mare ended up with very little toes on her back feet. If she had carried on shoeless, the mare would've been crippled. So, shoes went on and I think she is far from an idiot ... well she doesn't seem to be one, she could be a closet one of course 

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Was the mare sore or were her toes just short?


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## Sticker (25 July 2012)

I think many people are now not shoeing to save money.

I certainly don't think the rise in the popularity of going 'barefoot' & the current economic climate are simply a coincidence. 

Not shoeing is cheaper, simply. Even if hoof boots & extra supplements are purchased - trims by a farrier are still significantly cheaper than a full set every 5-6 weeks.

I am in no way implying this makes owners uncaring, or that a lot of thought still doesn't go into it. But it can be a sensible way to cut costs in tight times, in many cases...


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## quirky (25 July 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Was the mare sore or were her toes just short?
		
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I don't think she was sore but her toe was, I would say dumped but I'm not sure if it's the correct term. You could see the laminar .... where the hoof was dark, the dumped part was white.


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## Auslander (25 July 2012)

china said:



			but when your running out of choices bar going for de-nerving and Tilden etc, which I believe is bordering morally wrong,
		
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Before I get quite beside myself with fury (Having just had my horse treated with Tildren) could you confirm what exactly you meant here? I could be taking it completely the wrong way, so wanted to ask before grumbling.


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## china (25 July 2012)

Auslander said:



			Before I get quite beside myself with fury (Having just had my horse treated with Tildren) could you confirm what exactly you meant here? I could be taking it completely the wrong way, so wanted to ask before grumbling.
		
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It is a personal opinion, I know of many who have had it but I wouldn't chose it for mine, the same as I wouldnt feel right with him being on constant pain relief for the rest of his life just to satisfy my needs. 
 It is not changing what is happening, merely disguising it or slowing it down for a short period of time and I am not comfortable with that. It seems to be proven that there is a high percentage of halting the degeneration of navicular without drugs which I am much more up for trying. 

But for any treatment, we clearly need a bottomless pit of money.... Or a money tree!


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## Pale Rider (25 July 2012)

Nice one Sticker.


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## Goldenstar (25 July 2012)

I just don't understand  why this is such an emotive subject.
If you what your horse shod fine .
If you work your horse BF fine .
If you have your horse BF work it BF sometimes in boots sometimes fine,
If you use boots all the time when the horse is working fine,
If you have your BF some of the time in boots sometimes and shod part of the year fine.
But why do people object to people asking questions on this subject if you don't believe that horses can work without shoes why bother if others do its not affecting you is it.
Horses where not born with shoes on so I fail to a see why keeping them without shoes causes such a bun fight.
You know I don't really mind what anyone else does with their own horses I don't care whether you call it BF unshod or anything else .
Do I think it's good people can questions about BF thinking yes it's great to read about what others do and think ,why should people not debate this if you don't like it dont read it.


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## Shanny_mare (25 July 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			I just don't understand  why this is such an emotive subject.
If you what your horse shod fine .
If you work your horse BF fine .
If you have your horse BF work it BF sometimes in boots sometimes fine,
If you use boots all the time when the horse is working fine,
If you have your BF some of the time in boots sometimes and shod part of the year fine.
But why do people object to people asking questions on this subject if you don't believe that horses can work without shoes why bother if others do its not affecting you is it.
Horses where not born with shoes on so I fail to a see why keeping them without shoes causes such a bun fight.
You know I don't really mind what anyone else does with their own horses I don't care whether you call it BF unshod or anything else .
Do I think it's good people can questions about BF thinking yes it's great to read about what others do and think ,why should people not debate this if you don't like it dont read it.
		
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Like


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## cptrayes (25 July 2012)

quirky said:



			I don't think she was sore but her toe was, I would say dumped but I'm not sure if it's the correct term. You could see the laminar .... where the hoof was dark, the dumped part was white.
		
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The horse was dragging its toes and wearing off the front? 

Personally I would want to find out why she was doing that, it's got nowt to do with being barefoot, other that it allowed it to be obvious in the hoof wear.


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## Miss L Toe (25 July 2012)

cptrayes said:



			The horse was dragging its toes and wearing off the front? 

Personally I would want to find out why she was doing that, it's got nowt to do with being barefoot, other that it allowed it to be obvious in the hoof wear.
		
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That was my thought too, the horse is not wearing its feet down due to being barefoot but due to its gait, and this needs investigating.
Even if such a horse is shod, the toe will still drag, and soon wear the shoes thin.


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## tallyho! (25 July 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			I just don't understand  why this is such an emotive subject.
If you what your horse shod fine .
If you work your horse BF fine .
If you have your horse BF work it BF sometimes in boots sometimes fine,
If you use boots all the time when the horse is working fine,
If you have your BF some of the time in boots sometimes and shod part of the year fine.
But why do people object to people asking questions on this subject if you don't believe that horses can work without shoes why bother if others do its not affecting you is it.
Horses where not born with shoes on so I fail to a see why keeping them without shoes causes such a bun fight.
You know I don't really mind what anyone else does with their own horses I don't care whether you call it BF unshod or anything else .
Do I think it's good people can questions about BF thinking yes it's great to read about what others do and think ,why should people not debate this if you don't like it dont read it.
		
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Who knows... that's barefoot for you  but it does get people talking. You can just feel the love!


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## Goldenstar (25 July 2012)

tallyho! said:



			Who knows... that's barefoot for you 

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Honest I am really interested in why this raises such "passions".


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## Auslander (25 July 2012)

china said:



			It is a personal opinion, I know of many who have had it but I wouldn't chose it for mine, the same as I wouldnt feel right with him being on constant pain relief for the rest of his life just to satisfy my needs. 
 It is not changing what is happening, merely disguising it or slowing it down for a short period of time and I am not comfortable with that. It seems to be proven that there is a high percentage of halting the degeneration of navicular without drugs which I am much more up for trying. 

But for any treatment, we clearly need a bottomless pit of money.... Or a money tree!
		
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How can it be wrong to give a horse a treatment that will make him more comfortable. What else do you suggest I do? Shoot a happy horse who just happens to have degenerating joints (that he isn't even lame on)? If I was doing it so that I could put him back in full work and gallop the legs off him, then it would be morally wrong, but I am doing it to give a lovely horse a chance at a longer and more comfortable life. So shoot me for trying to do the best by him.


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## Goldenstar (25 July 2012)

Auslander said:



			How can it be wrong to give a horse a treatment that will make him more comfortable. What else do you suggest I do? Shoot a happy horse who just happens to have degenerating joints (that he isn't even lame on)? If I was doing it so that I could put him back in full work and gallop the legs off him, then it would be morally wrong, but I am doing it to give a lovely horse a chance at a longer and more comfortable life. So shoot me for trying to do the best by him.
		
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It's not wrong of course it's not I did with my old boy and he had two years of gentle fun then it was time to call it a day.
I frankly don't understand why people think its wrong to let an oldie have  a bit of gentle fun on Danilon when they need it .


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## the watcher (25 July 2012)

Gosh, I went off to work for a few hours and you all carried on without me!

Thanks to everybody who contributed. Along with some of you I would love to see some properly measured results comparing unshod rehabilitation with remedial farriery. Information is empowering after all.


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## soloequestrian (25 July 2012)

the watcher said:



			Thanks to everybody who contributed. Along with some of you I would love to see some properly measured results comparing unshod rehabilitation with remedial farriery. Information is empowering after all.
		
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Have you looked at the Rockley Farm site?


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## quirky (25 July 2012)

Horses gait referred to above was analysed. Shoes do not wear but then they aren't dragged, so I guess they wouldn't.


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## Goldenstar (25 July 2012)

the watcher said:



			Gosh, I went off to work for a few hours and you all carried on without me!

Thanks to everybody who contributed. Along with some of you I would love to see some properly measured results comparing unshod rehabilitation with remedial farriery. Information is empowering after all.
		
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That would be great I suspect it be a while  coming.


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## the watcher (25 July 2012)

soloequestrian said:



			Have you looked at the Rockley Farm site?
		
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I am aware of what they do there and I see they claim a degree of success without actually promising or guaranteeing improvement. Good for them, if what they are doing works, but it isn't actually measureable.


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## Goldenstar (25 July 2012)

the watcher said:



			I am aware of what they do there and I see they claim a degree of success without actually promising or guaranteeing improvement. Good for them, if what they are doing works, but it isn't actually measureable.
		
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Well it would be with a trial group of horses scanned / xrayed or whatever is apporiate during before and after different courses of treatment.
But whose to pay for it that's the question.


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## soloequestrian (25 July 2012)

the watcher said:



			I am aware of what they do there and I see they claim a degree of success without actually promising or guaranteeing improvement. Good for them, if what they are doing works, but it isn't actually measureable.
		
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Of course it is measureable!  How else would you propose to collect the information that people keep claiming they want to see?!


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## Arizahn (25 July 2012)

Well, I had Hippo's shoes removed in April of this year, as she had chipped hooves anyway and needed a chance to grow them out! She's out at grass 24/7 and only became footy during her last trim - farrier had an off day and took too much off

So she's having time off until she isn't footy anymore. Yesterday, she chose to walk on the tarmac as opposed to the grass verge, and today she went so far as to break into trot whilst on a hard surface

This has taken almost a month, from bad trim to start of recovery, by the way. I have no idea who is right or wrong in this debate, but I do know that aside from this very recent issue, Hippo is happier and more confident without shoes. Her hooves are also far healthier overall.

I will not be putting shoes back on her.


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## the watcher (25 July 2012)

soloequestrian said:



			Of course it is measureable!  How else would you propose to collect the information that people keep claiming they want to see?!
		
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It would need to be a properly controlled comparison I think, with Xrays prior to rehab, and then a follow up 4-6 months later with equal numbers of horses in the 'barefoot rehab' group against conventional remedial farrier. 
Apart from the FRC I can't think of anybody who might be interested in sponsoring it though


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## Goldenstar (25 July 2012)

the watcher said:



			It would need to be a properly controlled comparison I think, with Xrays prior to rehab, and then a follow up 4-6 months later with equal numbers of horses in the 'barefoot rehab' group against conventional remedial farrier. 
Apart from the FRC I can't think of anybody who might be interested in sponsoring it though
		
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Don't think the FRC will want to do that my gut feeling is it won't come out great for shoes or drugs for that matter, when I win the euro lottery I 'll fund it ( it's only a question of time)


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## soloequestrian (25 July 2012)

the watcher said:



			It would need to be a properly controlled comparison I think, with Xrays prior to rehab, and then a follow up 4-6 months later with equal numbers of horses in the 'barefoot rehab' group against conventional remedial farrier. 
Apart from the FRC I can't think of anybody who might be interested in sponsoring it though
		
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And why is a horse that has been through remedial shoeing without success and then is brought sound by Rockley not considered to be it's own control?  They have an impressive number of these.  How else would you propose to conduct a controlled comparison?  Induce navicular in a group of genetically identical horses and then treat them differently?!
I'm sorry, but when people start banging on about the lack of scientific evidence for the efficacy of barefoot, it just seems to me that they are sticking their fingers in their ears and singing la la la very loudly.


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## ester (25 July 2012)

I do think it is important for people to know it is an option, particularly if the horse already had pathologies. It is up to them if they want to pursue it but if they have the required information to hand about other peoples experiences then they can at least make their own minds up. I'm and out and and out scientist and although yes there is limited hard evidence a lot of the theory makes sense to me, also the fact that repeat MRI scans really are prohibitively expensive currently (and once the owner has a sounder horse they are happy) The feeding/supplementing is terribly wooly but I accept that! 

Frank has coffin joint DJD and slightly reverse rotated pedal bones he is lame in normal and bar shoes, in and out of work (worse in work) and not completely sound with steroid injections. 

16 weeks with no shoes.. he is sound and moving really well. Yes he has been footy at times but not wholly uncomfortable apart from one day (when had galloped round too much that night) when he made use of the supplied pea gravel. His feet have changed hugely, one hind which never grew straight now has much better ML balance, I have been very impressed. Also very glad that I have tried it, which I wouldn't had it not been for the information previously garnered from this forum. If he is lame again then so be it he retires but he isn't really ready for that just yet 



He has boots in front. These are because 
i) in order for him to do the work we want to (approx 45 mins a day now) his feet would be wearing down to quickly as the growth rate has not really caught up yet. Using boots instead of shoes allows the foot to fully function most of the time and well in shoes. 
ii) he is footy on some surfaces.. if off road I tend to take them with me and put on as required. Because of the pedal bone issue he has flat soles in front which means he is more likely to feel the odd stone, the flatness is certainly improving though. 

The watcher there is a study like that I think, bare with me!


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## ester (25 July 2012)

ah not quite its all about angles but suggests barefoot trimming beneficial for under run or low heels.


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## the watcher (25 July 2012)

soloequestrian said:



			And why is a horse that has been through remedial shoeing without success and then is brought sound by Rockley not considered to be it's own control?  They have an impressive number of these.  How else would you propose to conduct a controlled comparison?  Induce navicular in a group of genetically identical horses and then treat them differently?!
I'm sorry, but when people start banging on about the lack of scientific evidence for the efficacy of barefoot, it just seems to me that they are sticking their fingers in their ears and singing la la la very loudly.
		
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One could argue that the very number of remedial farriers suggests that there must be some value to the additional training and greater skill, if they weren't getting results surely nobody would bother with the training, or with using them? What I would like to know is how they compare in terms of success


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## china (25 July 2012)

Auslander said:



			How can it be wrong to give a horse a treatment that will make him more comfortable. What else do you suggest I do? Shoot a happy horse who just happens to have degenerating joints (that he isn't even lame on)? If I was doing it so that I could put him back in full work and gallop the legs off him, then it would be morally wrong, but I am doing it to give a lovely horse a chance at a longer and more comfortable life. So shoot me for trying to do the best by him.
		
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If they have a degenerative joints and are not lame, what is the need for treatment.... Nature is/has taken its course. 

Like I said, it is purely a personal opinion I do not judge those that choose these options Nor do I wish to be judged myself. My boy is only 14 and at his prime and I would love to continue his dressage and his jumping, but this is for my benefit and he could potentially be on danilon for 10 + years and that is something I have a problem with.  I would rather he was comfortable enough to hack which he enjoys than pumping him full of drugs to compete him for my benefit. Perhaps I would think differently if he were in his late teens/twenties and he needed pain relief to continue the odd poodle round the block for his remaining few years, but that is not the case.


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## Cahill (25 July 2012)

Cortez said:



			Oh thank the gods! A voice of reason!
		
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ps.never use hoof oil/products but do gof or a paddle in a stream if it is very dry and no dew.


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## Goldenstar (25 July 2012)

The elephant in the room that no body addresses is why these horses are going lame in the first place.
At the risk of incurring the wrath of the shoeing contingent ( I have shod horses and bf or unshod if you like ,horses ) every trip to a show I make I see shoeing that is are just terrible .
Some of this is due to bad nutrition or horses being shod continuously with out a break or the shoes being left on too long between shoeings but some of it down to bad farriers and the much quoted time they take to train does not seem to prevent this. 
As an owner you have no choice but educate yourself and try to make the best desisions you can for your horses.
It's not easy in hard to realise that you have take responsiblity for this you can't trust the professionals that's why I think there's all the BF threads people Are more and more aware of the issues and are searching for a way forward.


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## cptrayes (25 July 2012)

the watcher said:



			I am aware of what they do there and I see they claim a degree of success without actually promising or guaranteeing improvement. Good for them, if what they are doing works, but it isn't actually measureable.
		
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It is measurable. The whole of Project Dexter which now has 50 horses in it, has been done under scientific standards under the guidance of a Professor from Liverpool University Veterinary Hospital. 

How much measurement do you want? How about the fact that Bryan, one of the horses in the study, who left Rockley six months ago, jumped a clear round at Hickstead yesterday, as recorded in today's blog? He is just one of the successes they have had, in a study which is now greater in numbers than any properly conducted study into remedial shoeing, and has a far greater success rate than even the worst controlled shod study you can find.


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## cptrayes (25 July 2012)

the watcher said:



			One could argue that the very number of remedial farriers suggests that there must be some value to the additional training and greater skill, if they weren't getting results surely nobody would bother with the training, or with using them? What I would like to know is how they compare in terms of success
		
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Success rate of return to full work for remedial farrriery and medication of caudal hoof lameness is around 20% depending on the study.

Success rate of return to full work for barefoot rehabs at Rockley is around 80% or over 50 horses.  To my recollection, 47 of those were previously remedially shod and medicated, so the figures for success are even more impressive.

Dozens of us have also done one-offs. Mine had an appointment booked with a lethal injection after adequan, tildren, HLA and bar shoes failed to bring him sound. Last weekend he won, yet again, very high standard showing classes, has hunted when his owner can reach the meet and is in full work including jumping. I'd be happy to have his xrays done again for comparison if anyone wants to give me the money


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## Goldenstar (25 July 2012)

china said:



			If they have a degenerative joints and are not lame, what is the need for treatment.... Nature is/has taken its course. 

Like I said, it is purely a personal opinion I do not judge those that choose these options Nor do I wish to be judged myself. My boy is only 14 and at his prime and I would love to continue his dressage and his jumping, but this is for my benefit and he could potentially be on danilon for 10 + years and that is something I have a problem with.  I would rather he was comfortable enough to hack which he enjoys than pumping him full of drugs to compete him for my benefit. Perhaps I would think differently if he were in his late teens/twenties and he needed pain relief to continue the odd poodle round the block for his remaining few years, but that is not the case.
		
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But China how do you know Auslanders horse does not love what he does and would be bored to death hacking about ?
Some horses love competion type work Auslander horse may glory in his skills and enjoying them with his rider .  Auslander is not  necessarily forcing this horse into this work for her greater glory  she might just be doing it because he loves it to.
You take the desision that yours prefers hacking about AUslander is best placed to take the desision for hers.


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## Holly Hocks (25 July 2012)

I haven't read every post, but I am the owner of an ex -racer TB with navicular, bilateral spavin, hind limb PSLD and fetlock arthritis.   lIn October I was told it was unlikely she would ever come sound, would not be rideable again and I should consider PTS or field ornament.  She is now unshod, sound and ridden.  I don't buy into the "barefoot cures everything" line,  but for me it works.  I don't care if you shoe or not, I can only give my experience - if you don't want to believe me or take any notice that's fine - move on to the next post.


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## cptrayes (25 July 2012)

Cortez said:



			Oh thank the gods! A voice of reason!
		
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Explain please? 

Why is it the voice of reason when this person says that they shoe their horses when they do a lot of road work and take them off when they are not doing a lot of road work?

And not the voice of reason when I and others say that we do as much roadwork and anyone would wish to do with any of our horses without shoes on?

The poster did not give any evidence that their horse needed the shoes. They just shod because they felt they were doing a lot of road work. 

What is "reasonable" about that?  And what is unreasonable about suggesting that the horse could probably cope with the roadwork just fine, provided it wasn't taken straight from 1 hour a day to 4 hours a day in one leap?


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## china (25 July 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			But China how do you know Auslanders horse does not love what he does and would be bored to death hacking about ?
Some horses love competion type work Auslander horse may glory in his skills and enjoying them with his rider .  Auslander is not  necessarily forcing this horse into this work for her greater glory  she might just be doing it because he loves it to.
You take the desision that yours prefers hacking about AUslander is best placed to take the desision for hers.
		
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You make it sound like I am telling auslander that her decision is wrong..... I will reiterate, it is my personal opinion and individual to different circumstances. .. In this case, this opinion is individual to my circumstances.


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## Auslander (25 July 2012)

china said:



			If they have a degenerative joints and are not lame, what is the need for treatment.... Nature is/has taken its course.
		
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Because it's degenerative, and will get progressively worse if I don't do what I can to help him now, before it gets so bad that he can't be helped with palliative therapies. He's only 15, loves his work and is as happy as larry. I am not choosing to intervene because I selfishly want to keep him working - I am choosing to intervene to maintain the quality of life he has at the moment for as long as I can. I would have no hesitation in having a horse that was unsound and unhappy PTS, and if, a few years down the line, I find myself in that situ with Alf - I will make damn sure I make the decision to let him go before he starts to deteriorate significantly. 

Your view is just that, your view - to which you were entitled, but making comments like 'morally wrong' in relation to treatment that you wouldn't choose to give your horse is a kick in the teeth for those of us who have chosen to go down that route to help our horses.

Apologies to everyone else for straying off topic, but I got worked up!!


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## china (25 July 2012)

Goodness me..


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## Auslander (25 July 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			But China how do you know Auslanders horse does not love what he does and would be bored to death hacking about ?
Some horses love competion type work Auslander horse may glory in his skills and enjoying them with his rider .  Auslander is not  necessarily forcing this horse into this work for her greater glory  she might just be doing it because he loves it to.
You take the desision that yours prefers hacking about AUslander is best placed to take the desision for hers.
		
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Thank you GS. Ironically, Alf is spending more time in the field than being ridden at the moment due to my sheer volume of work, but in the not too distant future, I do hope to do a bit with him. I haven't gone down the treatment route so that I can continue to dressage him - I have done it because I think its the right thing to do for him. IF he can continue to be a dressage dude, that would be lovely, but if not - I won't be breaking my heart over it. That's not what motivates me any more. I just like having him around.


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## Goldenstar (25 July 2012)

china said:



			You make it sound like I am telling auslander that her decision is wrong..... I will reiterate, it is my personal opinion and individual to different circumstances. .. In this case, this opinion is individual to my circumstances.
		
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Saying that  it's morally wrong to use these therapies is a pretty strong thing to say.


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## rhino (25 July 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			Saying that  it's morally wrong to use these therapies is a pretty strong thing to say.
		
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Totally agree. There's definitely a place for preventative and palliative treatment. I wonder how many people would be absolutely shocked at the number of high level competition horses who receive such treatment as a preventative measure?!


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## china (25 July 2012)

Do people seriously not read posts clearly?? I feel those treatments are BOARDERING MOARALLY WRONG IN MY CIRCUMSTANCES. 

Jeeez


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## Goldenstar (25 July 2012)

rhino said:



			Totally agree. There's definitely a place for preventative and palliative treatment. I wonder how many people would be absolutely shocked at the number of high level competition horses who receive such treatment as a preventative measure?!
		
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Well I know exactly how common that is and I have to say I would not want that for mine but I see thats different to letting an older much loved friend continue to enjoy the life he loves .
Giving Tildren to sound nine year old is a bit nutty in my book.( and only for the very wealthy )


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## rhino (25 July 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			Well I know exactly how common that is and I have to say I would not want that for mine but I see thats different to letting an older much loved friend continue to enjoy the life he loves .
Giving Tildren to sound nine year old is a bit nutty in my book.( and only for the very wealthy )
		
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There's not a huge amount of research into preventative treatments, but on a personal level I've been having the human equivalent of joint injections into my knee since I was about 17. Before that I was facing the prospect of a knee replacement by 20, I'm now a decade and a bit older than that and still going strong


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## the watcher (25 July 2012)

The Rockley Farm results are certainly promising, shame they are buried so deep in their blog and perhaps they should be debated more widely. It is reassuring to read there that it is about more than just taking the shoes off. The feed and management advice appears to be mostly common sense and ideally what we all should be doing, whether our horses are shod or not.

Interestingly I have the farrier coming tomorrow and planned to discuss with him the possibility of taking the fronts off the Haffie pony, she has reached a level of training where she has moved completely off her forehand so should be able to cope more comfortably..it will be useful to have some examples to discuss (although whether the WB would ever cope without shoes is a much bigger question)

Having said that the pony is there to be ridden and showjumped, we don't have time for any kind of lengthy transition, so if she isn't coping the shoes will go back on


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## cptrayes (25 July 2012)

They aren't buried there is a button in the top two lines of the blog just under the heading.  Nic will email a detailed document to anyone who asks for it, listing each horse individually.


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## Tiffany (25 July 2012)

I'm much older than 21 so to me they are either shod or unshod and it should be what works for the horse.

I'm not for or against shod or unshod and certainly wouldn't criticise what people choose.  My girl has been unshod on back for years and is shod on front. She was diagnosed with navicular last year, I have a wonderful farrier and vet and my mare is sound and happy


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## Sugar_and_Spice (25 July 2012)

Sorry if this has already been said, I've only read to page 5.

Firstly, I couldn't care less if your horse is shod or not, as long as its pain free. This isn't aimed at anyone in particular. 

I see shoes as a painkiller. If a horse is foot sore without shoes, there must be a reason for that. The owner has two choices. Either: find the reason, adjust the diet/workload and lifestyle, if the owner is willing/able; or alternatively, shoe the horse. 

Some owners don't want to do the work involved in keeping their horse without shoes. Some owners are unable to do what is necessary due to being on livery and restricted by what the yard owner will allow. These owners will shoe the horse, that's fine.

Some owners will use hoof boots when the horse is foot sore in certain circumstances rather than foot sore all the time. Their horses are not suffering in pain when the hoof boots are off.

To those who have asked if it isn't the shoe-less-ness that is making the horse foot sore in the first place, I have a question... Do you think foals should be born with shoes on, or shod at birth? Not having shoes doesn't make a horse foot sore. Having a less than ideal lifestyle makes horses foot sore. It is not the horse who can't go without shoes, it is the owner who is unwilling or unable to provide the necessary lifestyle (necessary for that individual horse) to enable it to *remain* without shoes. This is not a dig at those owners. 

To me, its the same as a horse that is lame on one leg. The owner can either: find the cause of the lameness and do what is necessary to make the horse sound; or give painkillers and ignore the cause. Both have the same end result, a pain free horse, but one is an easier option than the other. Ignoring the cause of lameness can lead to a worsening of the condition and the horse being retired/PTS sooner, the same as shoeing a foot sore horse can. Sometimes ignoring the cause of the lameness / foot-sore-ness will not make the condition worse (or at least not for a long time), it depends on what the cause is. I don't care about this either way, as long as the horses pain is managed while its alive. The same as I don't care if a horse is kept shod or without shoes, as long as it isn't suffering in pain.


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## Moomin1 (25 July 2012)

Just reading a few of these, and not going to get into the barefoot/shod thing again, but out of interest wonder how many barefooters rug their horses every time the weather gets rainy/windy etc?  Serious question - not intended to be sarky or anything - it's just the post mentioning about whether people think that foals should be shod made me wonder!


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## the watcher (25 July 2012)

cptrayes said:



			They aren't buried there is a button in the top two lines of the blog just under the heading.  Nic will email a detailed document to anyone who asks for it, listing each horse individually.
		
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Maybe, but to source it you would need to know what Rockley Farm are doing and who they are..which I do, but otherwise would not have seen those details


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## the watcher (25 July 2012)

Sugar_and_Spice said:



			To those who have asked if it isn't the shoe-less-ness that is making the horse foot sore in the first place, I have a question... Do you think foals should be born with shoes on, or shod at birth? Not having shoes doesn't make a horse foot sore. Having a less than ideal lifestyle makes horses foot sore. It is not the horse who can't go without shoes, it is the owner who is unwilling or unable to provide the necessary lifestyle (necessary for that individual horse) to enable it to *remain* without shoes. This is not a dig at those owners.
		
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Nothing that we do with horse past the first couple of years of their lives is in any way natural in most cases. We artificially feed them, we enclose them so that they cannot roam freely to forage, we ride or drive them. Shoeing could be seen as a compensation for compromising their natural state.


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## angelish (25 July 2012)

Agree 100% with you 

I try to stay out of the barefoot arguments as much as is possible but sometimes really have to sit on my hands as I just cannot understand why anyone would want to condemn there horse to months of walking about crippled in the "adjustment" period , then subject the poor thing to a life of 24hr mussel wearing or excessive stabling and feeding patterns just to say they are natural and bare foot  sounds crazy to me at best and sometimes down right cruel  

I can also see how it could be hugely benificial to some horses and how "some" horses can be fine without shoes but some barefoot people (not all) think they are the law of hooves and every horse shouldn't have shoes on and ram it down the throats of everyone 

Well that's my rant and also why I don't usually get involved


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## YorksG (26 July 2012)

The biggest issue is finding the correct management for each indvidual horse, the most appropriate professionals, with a governing body and registration system and using that rarest of commodities, common sense. In my opinion the owner has to take responsibility for knowing how the animal should move, look etc and work accordingly. No one system will work for all horses, as an example, one of our horses cannot tolerate alfalfa, two others thrive on it, we don't feed it to the one which cannot tolerate it


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## Fii (26 July 2012)

I find posts about Barefoot very interesting, mainly because i have two Lami prone ponies, so a lot of advice has been very helpful to me!
 Most of the posters who advocate barefoot are really helpful, there seems to be only one who is evangelical and extremely rude to those who question it, or who want to shoe their horses, this person does non of you any favours in trying to win people over!!


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## Fii (26 July 2012)

I dont have a problem with my farriers shoeing, i dont have shoes on any of mine at the moment because i have no need for them, i still have the farrier for trimming though, and she has never told me i should have shoes !


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## Sugar_and_Spice (26 July 2012)

Moomin1 - I do a mix of things. I keep my horse as naturally as possible, whilst not forgetting that by domesticating horses we can't replicate an entirely natural environment. Eg I exercise the horse because I can't arrange 1000 acres of varied terrain for him to roam across. Left in a field with no exercise he'd be obese. I don't rug in summer, I bring in if horse is unhappy due to flies or shivering in torrential rain. But I have no problem with people who would choose to rug in those circumstances. In winter I rug and clip (or not) depending on how often and how hard I intend to exercise the horse. I don't have a problem with people who full clip so they don't have to deal with moulting hair, as long as they rug appropriately.

The Watcher - I agree with you. Some people shoe horses to compensate for compromising the horses natural state. I don't have a problem with it. I do think though that its inaccurate when instead people say they *have* to shoe. IMO no, they don't have to shoe they choose to, and should acknowledge their reasons for doing so. I believe in doing things to/with your horses as an informed choice, rather than blindly following what others say because you think you have to and there is no other way. Though I fully accept that some people would not want to undertake the necessary research to make an informed choice. Some people like being ignorant. (I don't mean ignorant as an insult, but in its original meaning as a lack of knowledge). 

Basically I'm pretty laid back and mostly believe in live and let live, each to their own etc. Just so long as nobody is suffering. I don't call barefoot transitioning suffering, the same as I find needles painful but don't consider my annual flu vaccination to be suffering.


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## AngieandBen (26 July 2012)

Moomin1 said:



			Just reading a few of these, and not going to get into the barefoot/shod thing again, but out of interest wonder how many barefooters rug their horses every time the weather gets rainy/windy etc?  Serious question - not intended to be sarky or anything - it's just the post mentioning about whether people think that foals should be shod made me wonder!

Click to expand...

The only time my two ponies have had a rug on is when they have a coat change and its throwing it down with rain and very windy;  Even then its because they are getting on a bit.   When it was -11  and snowing they weren't rugged, they have plenty of natural shelter, and neither are clipped, always lose weight over winter which is good especially this year with all that green stuff around!


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## Brightbay (26 July 2012)

moorman said:



			One of the main reasons these threads turn into Barefoot V. Shod is because there are not enough well shod horses out there.
As a farrier who for the last few years has only trimmed I feel very sorry for owners who have had to turn to barefoot because their horse was not shod well.
One is not the answer for the other, they are 2 separate professions, based on 2 deferent theories 
A well shod horse, (and by the way there is such a thing) will have some recognisable professional features, footfall for one:  http://www.rockfoot.com/footfall.html 
No owner should feel they are being cruel by either shoeing or not shoeing, BUT farriers and trimmer should be very aware they can both perform cruel acts that can in the short or long term cause damage. 
All the horses  I shod whose owners changed with me to barefoot ( all but 2) went through transition very easily,  due to the shoes they had on.  
I have this very day taken on 2 horses that have been shod in a way that has 
been detrimental to there wellbeing, but the owner wishes to eventually go back to having them shod.
I have no problem with this, although I will do my best to produce feet that may make the owner think twice when the time comes.
It is time that a number farriers put their hands up and admit that some owners have come to barefoot though shear desperation with  farriery.

We need in my professions an education system that exposes  the vet, farrier, and trimmer student to all that is on offer so the owner is not having to go on threads like these to make their mind up as to what to do next in order to protect the wellbeing of their animal.
		
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Hurrah!  The voice of reason . Excellent post, thank you


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## tallyho! (26 July 2012)

Fii said:



			I find posts about Barefoot very interesting, mainly because i have two Lami prone ponies, so a lot of advice has been very helpful to me!
 Most of the posters who advocate barefoot are really helpful, there seems to be only one who is evangelical and extremely rude to those who question it, or who want to shoe their horses, this person does non of you any favours in trying to win people over!!
		
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Whoops! Sorry. I only get rude when others get rude about "barefoot people" i.e. calling names and also when people say things like "I would never let my horse get uncomfortable barefoot" without knowing anything about it - I take that as an insult and do get what you like to call "evangelical" about it. Would you do that to my face?

Anyway, sorry if I spoil it, but I am allowed to stand up and defend my beliefs - just like everyone is entitled to oppose it... 

I get incensed that it's ok to be rude about the barefoot taliban, yet when people who have barefoot horses, shout back it's not ok? I get retorts like "if you don't agree with tallyho, don't post  etc etc" when all I am saying is that why post if all you want to do is be mean? I will now ignore what I consider to be mean posts aimed at this race of people called "barefooters".

Also, the outrageous claims that people with barefoot horses make people with shod horses feel inferior??? Sorry everyone FEELS that way. That is not my problem but why bat barefoot people over the head with it?

It's the fact it's called "barefoot" isn't it? - thats what riles people. But that isn't my problem neither nor is it anyone elses. 

Sorry, there I go again but I feel I should explain myself. I have no problem if people want to contribute in a positive way. I just fume with the name-calling. I don't think there's any need for that. I will try not to get so emotional


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## soloequestrian (26 July 2012)

Sugar_and_Spice said:



			I do think though that its inaccurate when instead people say they *have* to shoe. IMO no, they don't have to shoe they choose to, and should acknowledge their reasons for doing so. I believe in doing things to/with your horses as an informed choice, rather than blindly following what others say because you think you have to and there is no other way. Though I fully accept that some people would not want to undertake the necessary research to make an informed choice. Some people like being ignorant. (I don't mean ignorant as an insult, but in its original meaning as a lack of knowledge).
		
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I think this is very well put.  I sometimes really wish I knew nothing about barefoot and that I was still happily handing over responsibility to a farrier.... but I've reached the stage of 'no going back' - I couldn't shoe again, the thought of it gives me the heebie jeebies and I have actually had nightmares about my horses being 'accidentally' shod!  Ignorance definitely would be bliss.
None of my three had a real tranistioning period - they just had their shoes taken off and carried on as normal.  The only difficulties I've had have been moving to somewhere with very hard stoney hacking - I had to start using boots part of the time to cope.  Mine are all TB/TB x and have rugs as necessary - they do live out all year round in the north of Scotland, I don't know if that makes me alternative or not....


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## eahotson (26 July 2012)

moorman said:



			One of the main reasons these threads turn into Barefoot V. Shod is because there are not enough well shod horses out there.
As a farrier who for the last few years has only trimmed I feel very sorry for owners who have had to turn to barefoot because their horse was not shod well.
One is not the answer for the other, they are 2 separate professions, based on 2 deferent theories 
A well shod horse, (and by the way there is such a thing) will have some recognisable professional features, footfall for one:  http://www.rockfoot.com/footfall.html 
No owner should feel they are being cruel by either shoeing or not shoeing, BUT farriers and trimmer should be very aware they can both perform cruel acts that can in the short or long term cause damage. 
All the horses  I shod whose owners changed with me to barefoot ( all but 2) went through transition very easily,  due to the shoes they had on.  
I have this very day taken on 2 horses that have been shod in a way that has been detrimental to there wellbeing, but the owner wishes to eventually go back to having them shod.
I have no problem with this, although I will do my best to produce feet that may make the owner think twice when the time comes.
It is time that a number farriers put their hands up and admit that some owners have come to barefoot though shear desperation with  farriery.
We need in my professions an education system that exposes  the vet, farrier, and trimmer student to all that is on offer so the owner is not having to go on threads like these to make their mind up as to what to do next in order to protect the wellbeing of their animal.
		
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Excellent post.Interestingly my farrier also is a qualified bare foot trimmer.He said he wanted to find out what all the fuss was about.He has no issues with either but says that the bare foot trim is basically what he would have done anyway if he wasn't going to put a shoe on the foot.


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## lazybee (26 July 2012)

angelish said:



			Agree 100% with you 

I try to stay out of the barefoot arguments as much as is possible but sometimes really have to sit on my hands as I just cannot understand why anyone would want to condemn there horse to months of walking about crippled in the "adjustment" period , then subject the poor thing to a life of 24hr mussel wearing or excessive stabling and feeding patterns just to say they are natural and bare foot  sounds crazy to me at best and sometimes down right cruel  

I can also see how it could be hugely benificial to some horses and how "some" horses can be fine without shoes but some barefoot people (not all) think they are the law of hooves and every horse shouldn't have shoes on and ram it down the throats of everyone 

Well that's my rant and also why I don't usually get involved 

Click to expand...


I believe ^^ this ^^ is what the silent majority think and those who can't be bothered to read all the holier than thou rants of self appointed 'ex-spurts'; who worship at he high altar of Rockley farm.

 Id listen more closely to what people (like the unbelievably arrogant Pale Rider) had to say, but I keep getting distracted by the excrementos de toro flying about. Statements like nailing lumps or metal on or failing to address the cause of the problem are clearly intended to make shod horses appear to be nothing more than a welfare or cruelty cases. Another one is: the only reason for shoeing is that the owner lacks the commitment or know how to go bare. Clearly total rubbish.

By the way I have 5 out of six unshod. I don't have an axe to grind either way and do what's best for the individual horse (and one donkey) or try my very best to. I will never except there can be only be one way and can't understand why people have separate into 'camps' ??? There's one advocate of barefoot on here who will argue for argument's sake in the vain attempt to get the last word  I really don't get it.


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## quirky (26 July 2012)

tallyho! said:



			I get retorts like "if you don't agree with tallyho, don't post  etc etc"

Also, the outrageous claims that people with barefoot horses make people with shod horses feel inferior??? Sorry everyone FEELS that way. That is not my problem but why bat barefoot people over the head with it?
		
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AngieandBen said:



			As the saying goes, all horses can become barefoot but not all owners can.  Its certainly not for the quick fix, its a long term thing,  depends if want/can fit it into your lifestyle.
		
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Well if this quote isn't a down doer on shod horses, I don't know what else it is 



tallyho! said:



			If you don't like barefoot why do you bother posting... Same goes to all others who agree with you.
		
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Umm ... this is what you posted ... disagreeing with a post and telling others who agree with that poster, not to post either. Whichever way it is read, it can not be construed any other way


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## cptrayes (26 July 2012)

the watcher said:



			Maybe, but to source it you would need to know what Rockley Farm are doing and who they are..which I do, but otherwise would not have seen those details
		
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Would you have her raise her prices so that she can publicize it?

We would all like the research published but the Professor who helped her set it up and regularly reviews her results has other things to do with his time and there is no money available to pay anyone to do it.


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## Goldenstar (26 July 2012)

Still wondering why this is so emotive.


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## cptrayes (26 July 2012)

lazybee said:



			; who worship at the high altar of Rockley farm.
		
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If you had one of the approaching fifty horses that have been to Rockley Farm as a last resort after meds and shoes have failed and you are running out of insurance money and your vet and farrier are telling you to retire it or shoot it, and your horse is now in full work, you'd be worshipping at the high altar of Rockley Farm too  

The only problem with Rockley is that there is only one of it. We need at least three others in other corners of the country.


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## cptrayes (26 July 2012)

angelish said:



			I just cannot understand why anyone would want to condemn there horse to months of walking about crippled in the "adjustment" period , then subject the poor thing to a life of 24hr mussel wearing or excessive stabling and feeding patterns just to say they are natural and bare foot  sounds crazy to me at best and sometimes down right cruel 

Click to expand...


I don't think you will find anyone who posts on HHO who does not agree with this statement.




angelish said:



			I can also see how it could be hugely benificial to some horses and how "some" horses can be fine without shoes but some barefoot people (not all) think they are the law of hooves and every horse shouldn't have shoes on and ram it down the throats of everyone
		
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I don't see anyone holding a gun to your head to make you open and read threads about barefoot. If you have an issue with people you meet face to face take it out on them, but don't blame us if you _choose_ to read stuff you don't have to.



angelish said:



			Well that's my rant and also why I don't usually get involved 

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I hope you feel better for it. It certainly didn't help the discussion any, so it would be about the only benefit your effort achieved


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## Miss L Toe (26 July 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			Still wondering why this is so emotive.
		
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It is a bit like driving on the left, I do it, but have never actually read the legislation which demands it, we assume we are doing the right thing, but then one day we fall asleep, wake up in France where those froggies are doing it all wrong, we are OK from 12 noon to 2.00pm because the roads are empty, but suddenly there is a reality check and the motorways fill up again.
We are confused, but what the heck, they will see the error of their ways, I am driving on the left.
The seagulls are following the trawler.


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## cptrayes (26 July 2012)

Originally Posted by AngieandBen
As the saying goes, all horses can become barefoot but not all owners can. Its certainly not for the quick fix, its a long term thing, depends if want/can fit it into your lifestyle.
		
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			By Quirky
Well if this quote isn't a down doer on shod horses, I don't know what else it is
		
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No it's not.

The key is in the interpretation that you are putting on the words.  

"can"  Not all owners, especially those who have difficult horses, can provide what that horse would need to go barefoot, especially if they are in a livery yard, even if they wanted to.

"want" not all owners want to alter their lifestyle to allow their horse to work barefoot. It might be quite possible for their horse to manage, for example, if they were able to work it every day in the winter dark nights, but they make a decision that it would not fit with the rest of their lifestyle to do that (ie they have a life  ! ) 

It is YOU reading a value judgement into that statement, not the poster.

By they way I don't agree that ALL horses can do it, but I do agree that there are very few that can't and that most of those would probably turn out to have metabolic disease.  Also, it is very often a "quick fix". Horses which are difficult to manage barefoot are in the minority, which is why so many anti-barefoot people have happily unshod horses


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## BeesKnees (26 July 2012)

I think to be fair, when people say that some owners may not wish to, or be able to, take their horses barefoot, it isn't meant as a general criticism of their horse management or care. It is the fact that it often requires a change of feed , daily management, and access to barefoot friendly outdoor space, for some horses (not all) to manage the transition. For those owners that do not have the time / inclination / environment to do this, then going barefoot may not be an option? 

So less a judgement, more a statement of fact? *And in those circumstances, where the horse is in pain and the circumstances not ideal for BF, I've seen all the BF gang advise people to shoe.* I simply do not recognise the accusations of it being 'shoved down people's throats'. I think this is an defensiveness on the part of some readers.

I'm not an advocate either way, but find the BF stuff fascinating.


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## MerrySherryRider (26 July 2012)

angelish said:



			Agree 100% with you 

I try to stay out of the barefoot arguments as much as is possible but sometimes really have to sit on my hands as I just cannot understand why anyone would want to condemn there horse to months of walking about crippled in the "adjustment" period , then subject the poor thing to a life of 24hr mussel wearing or excessive stabling and feeding patterns just to say they are natural and bare foot  sounds crazy to me at best and sometimes down right cruel  

I can also see how it could be hugely benificial to some horses and how "some" horses can be fine without shoes but some barefoot people (not all) think they are the law of hooves and every horse shouldn't have shoes on and ram it down the throats of everyone 

Well that's my rant and also why I don't usually get involved 

Click to expand...

Good points. 

Don't be put off by the hysteria of the barefoot lobby. One day common sense will return and hoofcare will again be a decision based on the needs of the horse rather than a lifestyle choice.
It never used to be so trendy to have your horses unshod.


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## Clava (26 July 2012)

horserider said:



			Good points. 

Don't be put off by the hysteria of the barefoot lobby. One day common sense will return and hoofcare will again be a decision based on the needs of the horse rather than a lifestyle choice.
It never used to be so trendy to have your horses unshod. 

Click to expand...

Hysteria? 

I think it did used to be far more common for horses to be unshod for periods and ponies never shod. I also think that the trend is the other way as more people realise that they do not need to shoe.


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## Goldenstar (26 July 2012)

horserider said:



			Good points. 

Don't be put off by the hysteria of the barefoot lobby. One day common sense will return and hoofcare will again be a decision based on the needs of the horse rather than a lifestyle choice.
It never used to be so trendy to have your horses unshod. 

Click to expand...

BF is not a lifestyle choice for me and dont care if you call it trendy and rolleyes how rude you are.
This is exactly the type of post I don't understand unnecessary rude .
Unable to understand that some people make the desision based on the needs of the horse.
In the camp of what I do with my horse is best for horses everyone who does it differently is making desisions based on fads or fashion .


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## MerrySherryRider (26 July 2012)

BeesKnees said:



			For those owners that do not have the time / inclination / environment to do this, then going barefoot may not be an option?
		
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This is exactly the type of phrase being trotted out implying that owners of shod horses are second rate. Its a loaded statement. 

What is this mantra being reeled out all the time ? Good horse care is good horse care, what's good for a shod horse is good for an unshod one. What are you on about ?


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## pines of rome (26 July 2012)

All I can say, is there are a lot of happy trendy horses out there who would otherwise been pts!


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## Anglebracket (26 July 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Would you have her raise her prices so that she can publicize it?

We would all like the research published but the Professor who helped her set it up and regularly reviews her results has other things to do with his time and there is no money available to pay anyone to do it.
		
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I find the money argument unconvincing. The costs associated with research arise from conducting the research not from publishing it (unless of course you select an expensive open-access journal). Academics generally want to publish their findings in peer-reviewed journals. This is an important part of the research process. So if a Professor has already invested his / her time and effort in conducting a research study, why would they not want to publish their findings?


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## Goldenstar (26 July 2012)

Anglebracket said:



			I find the money argument unconvincing. The costs associated with research arise from conducting the research not from publishing it (unless of course you select an expensive open-access journal). Academics generally want to publish their findings in peer-reviewed journals. This is an important part of the research process. So if a Professor has already invested his / her time and effort in conducting a research study, why would they not want to publish their findings?
		
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I think I read that they never finished the research study it the reason was the high cost of the MRI scanning .


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## quirky (26 July 2012)

horserider said:



			This is exactly the type of phrase being trotted out implying that owners of shod horses are second rate. Its a loaded statement. 

What is this mantra being reeled out all the time ? Good horse care is good horse care, what's good for a shod horse is good for an unshod one. What are you on about ?
		
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You see, I read it in the same vein as you but I have been told that my interpretation is wrong  .... by a barefooter ... no surprise there then


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## MerrySherryRider (26 July 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			BF is not a lifestyle choice for me and dont care if you call it trendy and rolleyes how rude you are.
This is exactly the type of post I don't understand unnecessary rude .
Unable to understand that some people make the desision based on the needs of the horse.
In the camp of what I do with my horse is best for horses everyone who does it differently is making desisions based on fads or fashion .
		
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Two barefooters have referred to people as 'thick'. I think you'll find that is rude.
Don't recall saying 'BF' was a lifestyle choice for you, I've never met you. For me, not shoeing my horses is just a part of my management for them, not an obsession and if they need shoes, they'll have them. They wouldn't suffer for some ideology.


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## Anglebracket (26 July 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			I think I read that they never finished the research study it the reason was the high cost of the MRI scanning .
		
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Thank you for clarifying. Did they conduct MRI scanning on any of the horses? If yes, it might still be worth publishing the work. If not, how was success measured? Did they perform diagnostic tests before and after treatment? Again, these results might still be worth publishing.


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## BeesKnees (26 July 2012)

horserider said:



			This is exactly the type of phrase being trotted out implying that owners of shod horses are second rate. Its a loaded statement. 

What is this mantra being reeled out all the time ? Good horse care is good horse care, what's good for a shod horse is good for an unshod one. What are you on about ?
		
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I think that's interesting, because that isn't at all how I wrote or meant it! I thought I'd written it as a non-judgemental statement - i.e. if you don't have the time or environment to go BF, then that's how things are? As I clearly stated I am not an advocate either way. As far as I'm concerned if you think its tosh, don't do it! Really. 

So therefore if I didn't mean it in a judgemental way but some people take it that way, is the 'meaning'  being added by the reader?  

Perhaps because these discussions always get so heated, people find it hard to read posts without attaching emotion to it? I don't know.


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## Ranyhyn (26 July 2012)

In fairness horserider, I think it's about how a reader chooses to perceieve a comment also.

I don't find the above offensive, nor do I believe it makes me second rate.  I believe it's an accurate view of the circumstances.  I haven't got the time or inclination to barefoot rehab/transition my horse.  Whether I say that or a BFT member says that to me, the facts remain the same - it's true, I don't.

I don't have the time or inclination to learn how to canter half pass either, someone stating I could do it, if I could be bothered, is right and not being offensive, merely stating a fact.  Yes in SOME cases you couldn't learn it, but in most, you could.

Doesn't matter if you don't want to though - not to me anyway


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## BeesKnees (26 July 2012)

BoolavogueDC said:



			In fairness horserider, I think it's about how a reader chooses to perceieve a comment also.

I don't find the above offensive, nor do I believe it makes me second rate.  I believe it's an accurate view of the circumstances.  I haven't got the time or inclination to barefoot rehab/transition my horse.  Whether I say that or a BFT member says that to me, the facts remain the same - it's true, I don't.

I don't have the time or inclination to learn how to canter half pass either, someone stating I could do it, if I could be bothered, is right and not being offensive, merely stating a fact.  Yes in SOME cases you couldn't learn it, but in most, you could.

Doesn't matter if you don't want to though - not to me anyway 

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I think that's the point - it doesn't matter if you don't want to! It's fine to say 'I don't believe in it and I don't wish to go down that route'.

I think where the BF gang question people, is where instead of saying the above, people say 'it can't be done with my breed of horse / the work I do etc'. Their experience seems to be that it usually can be done with most horses - *if the circumstances allow.*


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## Goldenstar (26 July 2012)

horserider said:



			Two barefooters have referred to people as 'thick'. I think you'll find that is rude.
Don't recall saying 'BF' was a lifestyle choice for you, I've never met you. For me, not shoeing my horses is just a part of my management for them, not an obsession and if they need shoes, they'll have them. They wouldn't suffer for some ideology.
		
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But I think that's where you will find the BT are too.
And you did call BF a lifestyle choice and that people who work their horses without shoes are being trendy making desisions not based on the needs  of their horses making their horses suffer for ideology and any just for good measure hysterical as well.
As you said you don't know me thats why I feel I can say your post was sweeping and well rude .
I don't read every post ( honest ) and I don't think calling you thick is good manners either if someone calls you thick far better answer that point in a reasoned way  than throw a grenade at all people with BF horses .
When I read your post I felt throwing one in your direction because when you make a post like that you cant but feel it aimed at you if that's how you keep your horse ,so it's no get out clause to say I don't know you you could not say French people.......... And then say to a French person but I don't mean you I dont know you.


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## tallyho! (26 July 2012)

quirky said:



			Well if this quote isn't a down doer on shod horses, I don't know what else it is 



Umm ... this is what you posted ... disagreeing with a post and telling others who agree with that poster, not to post either. Whichever way it is read, it can not be construed any other way 

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quirky, let me tell you. Many of my friends have well shod ridden, competing horses. Many of my friends have well trimmed ridden, competing horses and ponies.

I do not do a "down doer" on them. I manage my horses how I want to, they do it their way and we learn from each other. Please come to see me and tell me to my face I "down do" you. The horses I ride for people come shod or unshod, and as long as sound and performing I'm a happy rider.

Why you have to pick a fight with barefooters I will never know.

Yes I posted that because you feel the need to come on a fairly level discussion and berate barefooters. Why shouldn't I ask you why you bother posting if you just want to be nasty? In my opinion, thats what it sounds like when you post. You haven't got a nice word to say and that is why I come across as rude towards you because I don't like the way you accuse barefooters of doing imaginary things.

Sorry to be rude to you, I can't stand it when people "down do" barefooters who are just ordinary people who are on a learning curve.

p.s. I have never come across a barefooter who has done a "down doer" on anyone. Most, if not all, barefooters had a shod horse once and may use shoes again if necessary.


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## HashRouge (26 July 2012)

Anglebracket said:



			Thank you for clarifying. Did they conduct MRI scanning on any of the horses? If yes, it might still be worth publishing the work. If not, how was success measured? Did they perform diagnostic tests before and after treatment? Again, these results might still be worth publishing.
		
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A number of the horses that go to Nic will have had MRI scans beforehand, usually in the earlier stages of their diagnosis when they were being treated using remedial shoeing etc. The problem that Nic has is that, although she would ideally love to be able to have these horses scanned again when they leave Rockley, there isn't really any money to do this. A lot of horses who go to Rockley have used up their insurance money already or, even if the insurance covers their stay at Rockley, because they have also been treated before they go to Nic, there simply isn't enough money left to cover the scans. However, last time I was there (about 1 1/2 months ago) Nic was preparing for her vets to come out and try to get decent images of the inside of the hoof using ultrasound. The results of this (reported on the blog) were mixed - for instance, to get the best image the frog would have needed to be pared right down, causing considerable discomfort to the horse, and obviously Nic wasn't willing to do this. But they did get usable images and I think the idea is that they will try scanning horses when they arrive and when they leave, because ultrasound is much cheaper. But this stage of the research process is still in the very early stages. I don't know what the long-term plan is re. publishing - I suspect it depends on the quality of the images they get from the ultrasound scans.

ETA This is Nic's post about the ultrasounds http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/its-starti-think.html


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## tallyho! (26 July 2012)

horserider said:



			This is exactly the type of phrase being trotted out implying that owners of shod horses are second rate. Its a loaded statement. 

What is this mantra being reeled out all the time ? Good horse care is good horse care, what's good for a shod horse is good for an unshod one. What are you on about ?
		
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quirky said:



			You see, I read it in the same vein as you but I have been told that my interpretation is wrong  .... by a barefooter ... no surprise there then 

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No-one is implying anything. It's a fact. Some horses cannot go without shoes. Some owners will not go without shoes. Some can. Some will. Some do, some don't.

It is not a loaded statement. It IS a statement.

One that is not intended to pigeon-hole anyone. 

Why do you feel so unhappy and take it so personally about people not shoeing their horses and calling it barefoot? 

I take it personally that you think I "down do" people and call them "thick" when I don't. But, I can't see why you take a statement that has nothing to do with you as an individual so personally.


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## Serephin (26 July 2012)

Wow, this is a long thread - I haven't read it all.

My horse is barefoot/unshod - has been for over a year - it took time for his feet to adjust and people couldn't understand what I was doing, why I didn't just slap shoes on when he was a bit footy, as it was easier, etc etc.

He is happy as larry in his bare feet - he is on a very low sugar diet and my farrier, yes, farrier, says he has lovely strong feet.

The thought of nailing metal to his feet seems alien to me now, and a bit crazy TBH.  Plus whenever he claps eyes on the farrier van he gets nervy, and then he realises that he is only getting a trim and chills out again.  What does that tell you about how they feel about getting shoes put on.

But obviously I am an evangelical nutter. Who knew.


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## MerrySherryRider (26 July 2012)

*Goldenstar* Just to clarify, there is a difference between working one's horses unshod, (as mine are) and embracing the Barefoot lifestyle trend.

Unfortunately, due to some very shouty BF's on this forum, they have done harm   than good. Some people give good advice, while others just look down on owners who choose to shoe or rant about farriers. 
It's this attitude that I find bullying.

 I prefer my working horses unshod, they manage well.
 Why would I then be a critic of the BF lobby ? Because I loathe fanaticism. 

It is a lifestyle choice, just as Parelli is, as opposed to ordinary mortals who use similar approaches as one aspect of training.

Obsession is never healthy in horsecare, keeping an open mind so there is always more than one tool in the box is pretty useful.


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## tallyho! (26 July 2012)

horserider said:



*Goldenstar* Just to clarify, there is a difference between working one's horses unshod, (as mine are) and embracing the Barefoot lifestyle trend.

Unfortunately, due to some very shouty BF's on this forum, they have done harm   than good. Some people give good advice, while others just look down on owners who choose to shoe or rant about farriers. 
It's this attitude that I find bullying.

 I prefer my working horses unshod, they manage well.
 Why would I then be a critic of the BF lobby ? Because I loathe fanaticism. 

It is a lifestyle choice, just as Parelli is, as opposed to ordinary mortals who use similar approaches as one aspect of training.

Obsession is never healthy in horsecare, keeping an open mind so there is always more than one tool in the box is pretty useful.
		
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Who are these people who offend you so much? Bullying is a serious term to use.


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## ester (26 July 2012)

Anglebracket said:



			Thank you for clarifying. Did they conduct MRI scanning on any of the horses? If yes, it might still be worth publishing the work. If not, how was success measured? Did they perform diagnostic tests before and after treatment? Again, these results might still be worth publishing.
		
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iirc lameness examinations were carried out by an independent vet before and after treatment. Obviously unfortunately this is inherently subjective. 

My thought is that the liverpool vet is perhaps waiting until the numbers increase as the more animals the greater the weight of the results and it might go some way to reduce the subjectivity. ie, they don't currently think that the study would be accepted as a paper.. I don't know if they have tried.. it would be nice if it could at least be a short communication somewhere. 

Sadly noone has/will currently provide the money to MRI scan post treatment to observe any changes, and owners aren't particularly bothered if their horse is sound. 

My vets were certainly reasonably positive so I think it is being taken up more. Mine said had had previous success for navi, not for DJD but I was welcome to try it.

fwiw I also used to think that CP et al. were being rather dismissive/acusatory about owners not being able to provide/willing to provide what would be required and certainly argued with them about it in days gone by. I get what they mean now though


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## MerrySherryRider (26 July 2012)

tallyho! said:



			Who are these people who offend you so much? Bullying is a serious term to use.
		
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LOL ! Who says they offend me ?  Rather akin to a fly landing on my arm. A small irritation.


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## quirky (26 July 2012)

*tallyho!* *yawn* There is no way anybody can have a civil discussion with you as you seem to feel persecuted, when actually it is you who is rude and inflammatory.

"Pick fights", to quote you - you must have led a seriously sheltered life if you to perceive an internet discussion a fight 

Anyway, never the twain shall meet and all that. I'd like to say it's been a pleasure but 

ETS
_Who are these people who offend you so much? Bullying is a serious term to use._
Where on earth has the bullying card come from? I can't see the word until you have used it here.
I rest my case about being inflammatory


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## mystiandsunny (26 July 2012)

I wonder if it's people coming at this from a different viewpoint.  Most ponies I knew as a child weren't shod.  The farrier trimmed them as needed and their hooves were rock hard - on a diet of pretty much just grass.  There weren't all these sweet mollassed feeds, alfalfa chop and that sort of thing around then.  They were worked harder than most ponies I see today, lived out, and were happy and healthy.  

From that standpoint, I've shod what needed it, and not what didn't.  Diets all round are the same.  Mostly just grass, with a handful of beet with supps.  Works from the TB to the Native ponies.  I have one that's shod all round, one shod in front, the rest not shod (and the TB's one of those - her hooves are good enough, so why not?).  No fancy supps, no agonising over what minerals they do/don't have, any of that.  They live out, are ridden 6 days a week, go hacking without issues, etc.  I don't get the hype tbh.  The old way was to put shoes on if the horse/pony needed them.  It doesn't make financial sense to shoe something that doesn't need to be shod, let alone any other consideration!


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## soloequestrian (26 July 2012)

Anglebracket said:



			Thank you for clarifying. Did they conduct MRI scanning on any of the horses? If yes, it might still be worth publishing the work. If not, how was success measured? Did they perform diagnostic tests before and after treatment? Again, these results might still be worth publishing.
		
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cptrayes will know more about this than me, but the argument is that if you have a sound horse, why would you shell out the cost of an MRI?  Most lameness is assessed subjectively, for instance 3/10 lame, so why do you need objective assessment in this specific case?


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## tallyho! (26 July 2012)

horserider said:



			LOL ! Who says they offend me ?  Rather akin to a fly landing on my arm. A small irritation.
		
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Oh, thats all right then, for a minute there I thought you were accusing someone of bullying you.


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## Goldenstar (26 July 2012)

horserider said:



			LOL ! Who says they offend me ?  Rather akin to a fly landing on my arm. A small irritation.
		
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So why wade in I don't see anyone being bullied .
I think I can remember who said I was hysterical putting ideology before my horse making a desision based on wanting to be trendy and to embrace a lifestlye chioice and and being a bully for good measure but it's all ok because you don't know me and therefore it does not count .
Bullying mmm


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## Victoria25 (26 July 2012)

Ive got an arab who hasnt ever had shoes on since the day she was born - shes got tough little feet - we are only happy hackers so the amount of road work we do seems to keep them worn down at just the right amount ... 

My TB has big fat dinner plates for feet ... he did have them on when raced but since he came to us he's been barefoot ... his feet were quite bad with cracks and the farrier advised no shoes as it'd do more harm than good ... 

He regularly gets his trimmed to keep on top of the cracks until they grow out - if/when the farrier says he needs them he can but again, only happy hackers so dont really do enough road work


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## pookie (26 July 2012)

quirky said:



			ETS
_Who are these people who offend you so much? Bullying is a serious term to use._
Where on earth has the bullying card come from? I can't see the word until you have used it here.
I rest my case about being inflammatory 

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It was used prior to Tallyho's reference (emphasis below), hence he/she said it was a "serious term to use". You're right that it's an inflammatory one.



horserider said:



			Unfortunately, due to some very shouty BF's on this forum, they have done harm   than good. Some people give good advice, while others just look down on owners who choose to shoe or rant about farriers. 
It's this attitude that I find *bullying.*

Click to expand...


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## MerrySherryRider (26 July 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			So why wade in I don't see anyone being bullied .
I think I can remember who said I was hysterical putting ideology before my horse making a desision based on wanting to be trendy and to embrace a lifestlye chioice and and being a bully for good measure but it's all ok because you don't know me and therefore it does not count .
Bullying mmm
		
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Go back and read the post. I wrote in generic terms.


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## Goldenstar (26 July 2012)

horserider said:



			Go back and read the post. I wrote in generic terms.
		
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What does that mean generic you make sweeping comments about a group but then say they dont apply to anyone .
Just asking.


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## tallyho! (26 July 2012)

quirky said:



*tallyho!*
ETS
_Who are these people who offend you so much? Bullying is a serious term to use._
Where on earth has the bullying card come from? I can't see the word until you have used it here.
I rest my case about being inflammatory 

Click to expand...

Horserider is the poster who said that. Page 21, post no. 206

Not me so please don't quote me as writing that or accuse me of being inflammatory. Thanks.


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## MerrySherryRider (26 July 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			What does that mean generic you make sweeping comments about a group but then say they dont apply to anyone .
Just asking.
		
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No, that is not what generic means.


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## Goldenstar (26 July 2012)

horserider said:



			No, that is not what generic means.
		
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So what do you mean ?


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## quirky (26 July 2012)

tallyho! said:



			Who are these people who offend you so much? Bullying is a serious term to use.
		
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tallyho! said:



			Horserider is the poster who said that. Page 21, post no. 206

Not me so please don't quote me as writing that or accuse me of being inflammatory. Thanks.
		
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Apologies, the post was pointed out by pookie 

Inflammatory, that still stands, you are


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## tallyho! (26 July 2012)

quirky said:



			Apologies, the post was pointed out by pookie 

Inflammatory, that still stands, you are 

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By what measure? Please point it out to me so I know not to be in future. Also, would you mind comparing it to your inflammatory post so I can see the difference?


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## Goldenstar (26 July 2012)

quirky said:



			Apologies, the post was pointed out by pookie 

Inflammatory, that still stands, you are 

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It's easy to lose track particularly when it's empty washer HHO tidy work top HHO start washing floor HHO I really must enage with my lifestyle .


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## MerrySherryRider (26 July 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			So what do you mean ?
		
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Definition of generic
adjective
1characteristic of or relating to a class or group of things; not specific:


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## Goldenstar (26 July 2012)

horserider said:



			Definition of generic
adjective
1characteristic of or relating to a class or group of things; not specific:
		
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So that aimed at a group of people and there fore individuals within that group have ever right to feel those comments are aimed at them ,as you say people you don't know ,very very rude.
And adds nothing to the debate.


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## dressagecrazy (26 July 2012)

soloequestrian said:



			cptrayes will know more about this than me, but the argument is that if you have a sound horse, why would you shell out the cost of an MRI?  Most lameness is assessed subjectively, for instance 3/10 lame, so why do you need objective assessment in this specific case?
		
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In answer to the question above, in my own personal case my horse has been left a bit traumatised since he underwent the 2 MRI's to diagnose his injury.

The plan was always to re-MRI but as it stands i cannot put him through it as we have now got him to a place where we can pick his feet up again. I have no idea what happend during the MRI's but i was told he had been very problamatic. I understand the equipment costs a fortune & why they may of been rough treatment. But it has left him with an issue over picking his hooves up, this was never an issue until the MRI's.

I do think the minute BF is mentioned tempers raise & i cannot understand why peopl on both sides seem to turn into hoof experts with HUGE opinions. BF has worked very well for me & my vet alone is astounded that not only my horse is sound he is competing.
My vet personally saw the struggle i had with the remedial shoeing, i cant say he backed my BF idea but he certainly doesnt question it for one second now & has ive heard taken his own daughters pony BF after a legnthy problem.

If you had of treated a horse with a hoof injury with shoes, would you be so quick to ask for documentation to back it up?

Why shouldnt BF work?

Have i got an issue with someone treating a similar injury with shoes NO, it's upto them & the advice & route they have chosen. Nothing to do with me i only know my own case.

Honestly im bowing out now as im not into Bun fights, i prefer to eat them lol. Well not buns i cant stick them. 
Can we not calm this thread down though it's a bit rediculous horse lovers arguing over shod - un-shod, as long as we do what is best for our own animals thats what matters. It is interesting to hear others opinions & lastest research/thinking but honestly calm it down.


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## Pearlsasinger (26 July 2012)

mystiandsunny said:



			I wonder if it's people coming at this from a different viewpoint.  Most ponies I knew as a child weren't shod.  The farrier trimmed them as needed and their hooves were rock hard - on a diet of pretty much just grass.  There weren't all these sweet mollassed feeds, alfalfa chop and that sort of thing around then.  They were worked harder than most ponies I see today, lived out, and were happy and healthy.  

From that standpoint, I've shod what needed it, and not what didn't.  Diets all round are the same.  Mostly just grass, with a handful of beet with supps.  Works from the TB to the Native ponies.  I have one that's shod all round, one shod in front, the rest not shod (and the TB's one of those - her hooves are good enough, so why not?).  No fancy supps, no agonising over what minerals they do/don't have, any of that.  They live out, are ridden 6 days a week, go hacking without issues, etc.  I don't get the hype tbh.  The old way was to put shoes on if the horse/pony needed them.  It doesn't make financial sense to shoe something that doesn't need to be shod, let alone any other consideration!
		
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Exactly!!!

I do think that those of us with plenty of years of experience gained before professional marketing became so influential can't understand why simple feeding and not using shoes unless the horse/pony needs them  is such a revelation to some people.  
I cannot understand either why any-one would be prepared to pay more to a 'barefoot trimmer' than to a well-qualified farrier to look after their horse's feet.
But then I can't understand why some people continue to employ the farriers who leave their horses' hooves in the messes I can often see local to me and apparently can't see the problems.  Although I do know that for some of them cost is a factor.  I could become evangelical myself about the fact that paying a good farrier a few pounds more works out cheaper than having to get the vet out after prolonged poor farriery.  
Just for the record, when I bought my Draft horse, just over 18 months ago, I was told that the farrier said she wouldn't cope without shoes.  She was vastly overweight and being fed a proprietary brand coarse mix.  We took off her back shoes to introduce her to our herd and changed her onto our usual high fibre/low sugar feed.  She worked with just fronts until recently when we took those off as well.  The farrier thinks she will be fine but of course we have the option to call him back to replace the shoes if we feel she needs them.  So far she doesn't.  Of the others one is unshod and the other is shod all round.
None of this is rocket science imo but sheer common-sense and good horsemanship.
IMO far too many people buy horses without knowing enough about how they should be kept to keep them healthy and happy and without some-one with enough experience to help them - as demonstrated by many posts on this forum.  Just because you can afford to buy a horse doesn't mean you should.


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## quirky (26 July 2012)

tallyho! said:



			By what measure? Please point it out to me so I know not to be in future. Also, would you mind comparing it to your inflammatory post so I can see the difference?
		
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Here you go 
I have *bold* the relevant parts for you




quirky said:



			This *twaddle* is propogated by barefoot people who want to set themselves apart and like to *make us think they walk a higher ground* than the rest of us shod horse owners 

Snip * Anecdotal evidence of unshod horses *
		
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tallyho! said:



			You could say that you are *setting yourself apart* from the many that don't find it as easy as you do. Aren't you the one being *evangelical* about the management of your horses? Yet see that it's ok to *belittle* others whilst at the same time l*ording it over* everyone about how wonderful things are for you? Not just you but the unshod mafia that see fit to bash barefooters. Saying things like we walk a higher ground. *Christ what set of glasses do you wear to see people in this way? Chip on shoulder much?*

*Well excuse me for not being around 40 years ago to witness amazing marvels of unshod horse keeping. What a shame I have to watch my horse struggle in shoes for years while my experts tell me this needs doing and he needs these drugs and I need to pay £6000 so he can live. All I needed to do was be around back in the day when unshod was what people did. It's such a shame I did not know you quirky. Could have saved myself a fortune!

What a fool i must be.*

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tallyho! said:



			No thanks to the *moaners like you* but more thanks to the people who bothered to reply to my posts about my barefoot transition. The barefooters helped me. Those who were against it, just ridiculed me. *Just like you are doing now, further segregating yourself form any meaningful input that offers any kind of help because you don't want to be seen to be part of barefoot.* It sounds like you have plenty of knowledge but rather than offer some, you would rather ridicule me for having a barefoot horse because *you believe we are all idiots* who serve to make other people feel stupid for shoeing.

I do care though because I don't like to see helpful people being called names just for believing in something.
		
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tallyho! said:



*Well then I can call you rude too for your original post as you were insinuating all barefooters are full of twaddle as you call it.*

Yes, I take umbrage. I don't see the difference between you calling the barefooters names and saying all the barefooters do is serve to make shod people feel small.

THAT is twaddle in my eyes. *If you don't like barefoot why do you bother posting... Same goes to all others who agree with you.*

*Sorry if my taking offence makes you laugh but I don't see why you should take the mickey out people who struggle to get it right for their horse.* That was me at one point. We all have to learn.
		
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tallyho! said:



*Sorry Rhino and quirky, I didn't know I was arguing about agreeing with me!

I thought I was being defensive? As its a forum, I am allowed aren't I? Rhino should know, she knows about all that kind of stuff. 

You can post what you like according to me but when you offend me, I can post back and say why.*

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tallyho! said:



*Whoops! Sorry. I only get rude *when others get rude about "barefoot people" i.e. calling names and also when people say things like "I would never let my horse get uncomfortable barefoot" without knowing anything about it - I take that as an insult and do get what you like to call "evangelical" about it. Would you do that to my face?

Anyway, sorry if I spoil it, but I am allowed to stand up and defend my beliefs - just like everyone is entitled to oppose it... 

*I get incensed that it's ok to be rude about the barefoot taliban, yet when people who have barefoot horses, shout back it's not ok?* I get retorts like "if you don't agree with tallyho, don't post  etc etc" when all I am saying is that why post if all you want to do is be mean? I will now ignore what I consider to be mean posts aimed at this race of people called "barefooters".

*Also, the outrageous claims that people with barefoot horses make people with shod horses feel inferior??? Sorry everyone FEELS that way. That is not my problem but why bat barefoot people over the head with it?
*
It's the fact it's called "barefoot" isn't it? - thats what riles people. But that isn't my problem neither nor is it anyone elses. 

Sorry, there I go again but I feel I should explain myself. I have no problem if people want to contribute in a positive way. I just fume with the name-calling. I don't think there's any need for that. I will try not to get so emotional 

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tallyho! said:



			quirky, let me tell you. Many of my friends have well shod ridden, competing horses. Many of my friends have well trimmed ridden, competing horses and ponies.

I do not do a "down doer" on them. I manage my horses how I want to, they do it their way and we learn from each other. Please come to see me and tell me to my face I "down do" you. The horses I ride for people come shod or unshod, and as long as sound and performing I'm a happy rider.

Why you have to pick a fight with barefooters I will never know.

*Yes I posted that because you feel the need to come on a fairly level discussion and berate barefooters. Why shouldn't I ask you why you bother posting if you just want to be nasty*? In my opinion, thats what it sounds like when you post. *You haven't got a nice word to say and that is why I come across as rude towards you* because I don't like the way you accuse barefooters of doing imaginary things.

*Sorry to be rude to you,* I can't stand it when people "down do" barefooters who are just ordinary people who are on a learning curve.

p.s. I have never come across a barefooter who has done a "down doer" on anyone. Most, if not all, barefooters had a shod horse once and may use shoes again if necessary.
		
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Anyway, that is it.
As the old saying goes, you can't argue (for want of a better word) with ..........


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## thatsmygirl (26 July 2012)

I can't read all these pages. But iv got 1 horse shod and 4 barefoot. The only reason my shod 1 is still shod is because she's getting ready for hunting and i haven't the time to set aside to get her going properly without shoes.
My tb has reverse rotated pedal bones and is unsound in shoes in everyway but the yard he came from didn't notice, it was " his way off going" barefoot now is his last resort and tbh iv seen great results so far but I am worried about the winter with his feet.


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## tallyho! (26 July 2012)

On phone now so can't quote, but I was being defensive. Not inflammatory.


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## cptrayes (26 July 2012)

horserider said:



			Good points. 

Don't be put off by the hysteria of the barefoot lobby. One day common sense will return and hoofcare will again be a decision based on the needs of the horse rather than a lifestyle choice.
		
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If my lifestyle choice is to have a hunter and a dressage horse who I save £1600 a year on  by not shoeing, who is the loser here, exactly  ?


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## quirky (26 July 2012)

cptrayes said:



			If my lifestyle choice is to have a hunter and a dressage horse who I save £1600 a year on  by not shoeing, who is the loser here, exactly  ?
		
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 Are you down south? That'd equate to a set of new shoes (no refits) for each horse every 4 weeks where I am


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## Goldenstar (26 July 2012)

quirky said:



 Are you down south? That'd equate to a set of new shoes (no refits) for each horse every 4 weeks where I am 

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I am in the north my set of shoes costs £ 108 every five weeks


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## Arizahn (26 July 2012)

I think everyone needs to have a group hug now...and send vibes to any footsore horses, and be happy for all the sound ones


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## cptrayes (26 July 2012)

horserider said:



*Goldenstar* Just to clarify, there is a difference between working one's horses unshod, (as mine are) and embracing the Barefoot lifestyle trend.
		
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No there isn't. The difference is between horses that are easy to do and horses that are not. There is no difference between a horse working barefoot and one working unshod. But some horses are much more difficult to achieve this with and that's where barefooters try and help instead of rushing for shoes.

Ironically, what the Taliban recommend which you are so hysterical about in earlier posts is actually the most natural lifestyle and feeding that you can give the horse. And as other people have pointed out, it was known about long ago and more recently forgotten. 



horserider said:



			Unfortunately, due to some very shouty BF's on this forum, they have done harm   than good.
		
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I don't believe this is true. Those people who are determined to be upset by barefoot posts, like you, continue to be upset by them. No harm done there. Those who read them to try and understand how they can take the shoes off their horses tell us they are finding the posts interesting. Good result. Some horses lives have been saved. Brilliant result. Harm? None that I can see.




horserider said:



			It is a lifestyle choice, just as Parelli is, as opposed to ordinary mortals who use similar approaches as one aspect of training.

Obsession is never healthy in horsecare, keeping an open mind so there is always more than one tool in the box is pretty useful.
		
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Oh you really have got it twisted, haven't you?  Parelli has a number of competitors, all of which are matched by big marketing budgets and are trying to outsell each other.

Barefoot/shoeless has no alternative other than shoes and there is no marketing expenditure being put behind it at all. It results in lower revenues, not higher ones.

I don't get where you say we are not open-minded. I cannot recall the last time a barefooter posted and said all horse/owner combinations can go without shoes.

The only closed mind I can see here is yours.


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## YorksG (26 July 2012)

Do people remember the horror and harm that was the Strasser method of 'barefoot trimming'? This woman and her followers were evangelical about horses not wearing shoes and needing a particular 'trim', she caused huge amounts of suffering to a number of horses, she is still referred to on some of the 'barefoot' websites. The work done by the Australian chap on ferral horses in Australia, New Zealand and America is fascinating, showing an incidence of lamminitis in those animals far above what has always been believed to be the case. (I can't remember the mans name and have only seen abstracts of the study, but I believe others on here have seen the full thing). Unreasoned berating of others, whether for or against shoeing/barefoot, does little for either camp, or horses. My main objection to barefoot is the unregulated nature of it, with anyone able to call themselves a trimmer. Until there is protected title the disquiet will continue IMO


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## quirky (26 July 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			I am in the north my set of shoes costs £ 108 every five weeks
		
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Wow, that'd hurt!!
Mine are £65 every 6 weeks .. £55 for refits and I too am North


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## cptrayes (26 July 2012)

quirky said:



 Are you down south? That'd equate to a set of new shoes (no refits) for each horse every 4 weeks where I am 

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No I am in the North West. The farrier I last used now charges £80 a set and I had each horse done an average of once every 5 weeks because of the amount of difficult roadwork (severe hills) I do.


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## cptrayes (26 July 2012)

YorksG said:



			Do people remember the horror and harm that was the Strasser method of 'barefoot trimming'? This woman and her followers were evangelical about horses not wearing shoes and needing a particular 'trim', she caused huge amounts of suffering to a number of horses, she is still referred to on some of the 'barefoot' websites. The work done by the Australian chap on ferral horses in Australia, New Zealand and America is fascinating, showing an incidence of lamminitis in those animals far above what has always been believed to be the case. (I can't remember the mans name and have only seen abstracts of the study, but I believe others on here have seen the full thing). Unreasoned berating of others, whether for or against shoeing/barefoot, does little for either camp, or horses. My main objection to barefoot is the unregulated nature of it, with anyone able to call themselves a trimmer. Until there is protected title the disquiet will continue IMO
		
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Strasser is a vet.  Relevant only to people who think every word a vet says is indisputable gospel.

Strasser trimming is to all intents illegal in this country, based on two successful prosecutions.

There is no problem with any other trimmer training in the UK.

In the New Zealand study to which you refer, the cause of the laminitis was exactly as it is in domestic horses - a temporary availability of grass that was too rich. No surprise there then. "Wild" is not synonymous with  "well cared for".


I share your concern with the lack of regulation and recently posted a thread proposing that no-one should be able to charge to trim without a licence. I would still like to see that happen, under the auspices of the Farriers Registration Council with proper training of non-shoeing trimmers.  Training which is currently sadly lacking from the shoeing apprentices syllabus, and should in my opinion be corrected immediately.


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## MerrySherryRider (26 July 2012)

Arizahn said:



			I think everyone needs to have a group hug now...and send vibes to any footsore horses, and be happy for all the sound ones

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Aw, Jeez, love this. Just hope no one squeezes too tightly.


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## *hic* (26 July 2012)

mystiandsunny said:



			I wonder if it's people coming at this from a different viewpoint.  Most ponies I knew as a child weren't shod.  The farrier trimmed them as needed and their hooves were rock hard - on a diet of pretty much just grass.  There weren't all these sweet mollassed feeds, alfalfa chop and that sort of thing around then.  They were worked harder than most ponies I see today, lived out, and were happy and healthy.  

From that standpoint, I've shod what needed it, and not what didn't.  Diets all round are the same.  Mostly just grass, with a handful of beet with supps.  Works from the TB to the Native ponies.  I have one that's shod all round, one shod in front, the rest not shod (and the TB's one of those - her hooves are good enough, so why not?).  No fancy supps, no agonising over what minerals they do/don't have, any of that.  They live out, are ridden 6 days a week, go hacking without issues, etc.  I don't get the hype tbh.  The old way was to put shoes on if the horse/pony needed them.  It doesn't make financial sense to shoe something that doesn't need to be shod, let alone any other consideration!
		
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Pearlsasinger said:



			Exactly!!!

I do think that those of us with plenty of years of experience gained before professional marketing became so influential can't understand why simple feeding and not using shoes unless the horse/pony needs them  is such a revelation to some people.  
I cannot understand either why any-one would be prepared to pay more to a 'barefoot trimmer' than to a well-qualified farrier to look after their horse's feet.
But then I can't understand why some people continue to employ the farriers who leave their horses' hooves in the messes I can often see local to me and apparently can't see the problems.  Although I do know that for some of them cost is a factor.  I could become evangelical myself about the fact that paying a good farrier a few pounds more works out cheaper than having to get the vet out after prolonged poor farriery.  
Just for the record, when I bought my Draft horse, just over 18 months ago, I was told that the farrier said she wouldn't cope without shoes.  She was vastly overweight and being fed a proprietary brand coarse mix.  We took off her back shoes to introduce her to our herd and changed her onto our usual high fibre/low sugar feed.  She worked with just fronts until recently when we took those off as well.  The farrier thinks she will be fine but of course we have the option to call him back to replace the shoes if we feel she needs them.  So far she doesn't.  Of the others one is unshod and the other is shod all round.
None of this is rocket science imo but sheer common-sense and good horsemanship.
IMO far too many people buy horses without knowing enough about how they should be kept to keep them healthy and happy and without some-one with enough experience to help them - as demonstrated by many posts on this forum.  Just because you can afford to buy a horse doesn't mean you should.
		
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Agree with both of these and especially the last paragraph. I think that what a forum like this shows is that there are well-read, gregarious and voluble types who are prepared to research something they feel strongly about and then spread the message loud. Then there are a huge number of people who jump onto the bandwagon and follow them whilst having not understood the basics of horsecare, let alone any refinements whether that be feeding, bitting, rugging, use of a particular item of tack or lunging equipment, trainer and of course the current shod/barefoot issue. These people try to follow blindly but have actually not understood the basics and need their hands held, but are now at the mercy of other new converts who may or may not be at the "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" stage at which point the horse suffers through it's owner's best intentions 

Commonsense, or horse sense, seems to be in short supply. Some of us oldies still maintain our ponies in the way they were maintained when we were children nearly half a century ago in my case, ie they lived out, had shelter not rugs, were fed only forage and were trimmed and left unshod. We tend to be the ones who don't have ponies with unmanageable behavioural issues or weight issues and laminitis, and whose ponies are rarely ever lame - just like when we were children.


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## Sugar_and_Spice (26 July 2012)

Arizahn, that's lovely  can't see it happening though.


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## YorksG (26 July 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Strasser is a vet.

Strasser trimming is to all intents illegal in this country. 

There is no problem with any other trimmer training in the UK.

In the New Zealand study to which you refer, the cause of the laminitis was exactly as it is in domestic horses - a temporary availability of grass that was too rich. No surprise there then. "Wild" is not synonymous with  "well cared for".
		
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There may not be problems with trimmer training, but there is nothing which states that a trimmer has to be trained, hence my view that protected title is needed.

The horses were ferral, and not all the laminitis was thought to be sugar related, but some were concussion related, with little or no grass, so not quite the same. I absolutely agree about wild not being synonymous with well cared for, as many captive animals have far greater life expectancy than their wild counterparts. I have little or no issue with whether horses have shoes or not , are classed as barefoot or not, but do have an issue with the manner in which the subject is discussed by some people, mind you often these are the posters who also follow other rather evangelical methods of horse care and training and it probably speaks more to their issues than having any actual basis in good horse management


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## Goldenstar (26 July 2012)

quirky said:



			Wow, that'd hurt!!
Mine are £65 every 6 weeks .. £55 for refits and I too am North 

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Yes five  horses it was eye watering but now one and one in full work BF and two dipping their toes in to see how we go.and the fifth went to horse heaven nothing to do with his feet a hasten to add.i
It's a little cheaper if you get more than one done at the same time as you pay the travel charge once.


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## cptrayes (26 July 2012)

YorksG said:



			There may not be problems with trimmer training, but there is nothing which states that a trimmer has to be trained, hence my view that protected title is needed.
		
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I completely agree with you. I wonder why we can't get the Farriery profession to listen? At the moment I'd have to come to the conclusion that they are too concerned about losing revenues, but it's happening under their noses at the moment.

Come on FRC/WCF,  we need two tiers of training - farrier/trimmers and non-farrier trimmers. Pull your fingers out!


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## quirky (26 July 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I completely agree with you. I wonder why we can't get the Farriery profession to listen? At the moment I'd have to come to the conclusion that they are too concerned about losing revenues, but it's happening under their noses at the moment.

Come on FRC/WCF,  we need two tiers of training - farrier/trimmers and non-farrier trimmers. Pull your fingers out!
		
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Has anybody approached them? If so, who and in what way?


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## POLLDARK (26 July 2012)

the watcher said:



			I've been here (on this forum) a very long time. That doesn't make me special, or my opinion especially valuable, but it does mean that I have seen some trends and changes over the years.

The one that is currently troubling me a little is the whole barefoot thing; hardly a day passes without some poor owner seeking reassurance about the right diet, whether their 'transitioning' is going correctly, where to source the right hoof boots, how to locate the right trimmer. I say 'poor owner', the reality of course is poor horse, those horses that had been perfectly happy for years working in shoes whose owners have decided that being unshod is somehow preferable
I'm not against unshod horses, if a horse can work happily without shoes I'm all for it, I have unshod horses myself, and one with just fronts and just one with a full set of shoes (believe me, he wouldn't cope at all without them)
However, if your horse being unshod (or barefoot if that is what you want to call it) means that you have to be mail ordering special minerals to keep them comfortable, ordering in hoof boots, agonising over their diet and lfestyle.....you have to ask yourself whether you are actually doing the right thing and whether it wouldn't be kinder to just nail a set of shoes on...
wouldn't you?
		
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Well the New Forest started with barefoot last autumn as he only gets road work twice a week, around 6 miles in all, & has always had well balanced, strong feet. He is coping really well, NO special diet, NO special care, he is self trimming because his gait is even so the wear is even. It has made no difference except to my pocket. I have been amazed as I had read about all the extra care & feed they need but not so with him. So not POOR horse at all. Slightly poorer farrier maybe.


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## Goldenstar (26 July 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I completely agree with you. I wonder why we can't get the Farriery profession to listen? At the moment I'd have to come to the conclusion that they are too concerned about losing revenues, but it's happening under their noses at the moment.

Come on FRC/WCF,  we need two tiers of training - farrier/trimmers and non-farrier trimmers. Pull your fingers out!
		
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This would be a good solution but I fear all they're interested in is revenues .
They think BF is a fad it will go away personally I think they are wrong.


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## cptrayes (26 July 2012)

quirky said:



			Has anybody approached them? If so, who and in what way?
		
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Who would, and why? 

It is people whose horses are shod or trimmed by farriers (however ill trained to trim barefoot working horses*) on this forum who are concerned about the trimming, not the people having it done by unregistered trimmers.

The trimming organisations won't want it, it would shut them down. 

The farriers don't want it, they can see their revenues for shoeing going through the floor. 

I don't need it, I trim my own. 

You seem quite disturbed by "the barefoot movement". How about you give it a go?




* it is not covered in the farriery syllabus. An apprentice will only see hardworking horses with no  shoes on if the master who he trains with has some on his books. This needs correcting.


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## Miss L Toe (26 July 2012)

quirky said:



			Has anybody approached them? If so, who and in what way?
		
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After the fiasco of the farrier who damaged a horse's hooves, and the vet who was banned for only a year after completely going against all ethos and BHA rules,  I can't think these professional associations are anything other than protectionist.
I have found a farrier [by accident] who is happy with me being barefoot, and is also happy to show me how he trims, he is quite interested in my barefoot diet, which is something he has not had any training in, my boy always had good feet, so there is no "before" and "after" scenario.


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## Megibo (26 July 2012)

not read all of the replies..but my thoughts on the matter are:

If it needs shoeing, put shoes on it. If it doesn't, leave it unshod...

both my girls are shod infront and shoeless behind. However when they move back to our private yard soon I will have them completely shoeless. My smaller mare was shoeless for 2 years and fine.


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## Goldenstar (26 July 2012)

The trimming organisations ought to have got their acts together gone to DEFRA I think DEFRA would have been the right place and arranged to base their training around NVQ's .
This would have been a good way forward I don't know why it has not happened that's what they need to do to counter these unlicensed arguments .


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## laura_nash (26 July 2012)

Wow!  I went away for a day and look how much has been posted!

I do find the comments about barefoot being a money making thing quite funny.  Even including my mail-order minerals and expensive boots, I still think barefoot is about the same cost - after all I was paying for the shoes!  Of course I stayed with my farrier for trimming and I know trimmers often charge more, in part because the farrier is already on the yard shoeing so doesn't need to charge for his travel.



Megibo said:



			If it needs shoeing, put shoes on it. If it doesn't, leave it unshod...
		
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This is the attitude that is common and I find a little annoying.  I'm an acknowledged "barefooter" lifestyle choice person.  My horse wasn't close to being PTS or anything, nor was he a horse that clearly didn't need shoes.  I took him barefoot primarily because I prefer the experience of riding barefoot.  Its totally a selfish decision, and yes it means he has to wear a muzzle and have less grass etc to make it work and I spend 10 mins putting his boots on before I ride if he's a bit footy in spring / autumn.

But then if I had decided to show him like some of my fellow riders do he'd need to be washed all the time, and have his tail in a bag, and be stabled before a show etc.

People don't say "if it needs a dressage saddle, buy one.  If it doesn't, get a GP".  What it needs is some way of making its back comfortable when you ride - how you do that is up to you so long as you don't get a manky old saddle with a broken tree and cripple the poor creature.

After all is said and done I bought him and go through the expense etc of having a horse so I can have my preferences when it comes to horse-care and riding, otherwise I could have carried on borrowing a friends horse when I wanted to ride.  If I choose to try to keep my horse barefoot through a special diet and some lifestyle changes, and use boots rather than metal shoes when problems occur, that is my choice.


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## Amaranta (26 July 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Strasser is a vet.  Relevant only to people who think every word a vet says is indisputable gospel.

Strasser trimming is to all intents illegal in this country, based on two successful prosecutions.

There is no problem with any other trimmer training in the UK.

In the New Zealand study to which you refer, the cause of the laminitis was exactly as it is in domestic horses - a temporary availability of grass that was too rich. No surprise there then. "Wild" is not synonymous with  "well cared for".


I share your concern with the lack of regulation and recently posted a thread proposing that no-one should be able to charge to trim without a licence. I would still like to see that happen, under the auspices of the Farriers Registration Council with proper training of non-shoeing trimmers.  Training which is currently sadly lacking from the shoeing apprentices syllabus, and should in my opinion be corrected immediately.
		
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laura_nash said:



			Wow!  I went away for a day and look how much has been posted!

I do find the comments about barefoot being a money making thing quite funny.  Even including my mail-order minerals and expensive boots, I still think barefoot is about the same cost - after all I was paying for the shoes!  Of course I stayed with my farrier for trimming and I know trimmers often charge more, in part because the farrier is already on the yard shoeing so doesn't need to charge for his travel.



This is the attitude that is common and I find a little annoying.  I'm an acknowledged "barefooter" lifestyle choice person.  My horse wasn't close to being PTS or anything, nor was he a horse that clearly didn't need shoes.  I took him barefoot primarily because I prefer the experience of riding barefoot.  Its totally a selfish decision, and yes it means he has to wear a muzzle and have less grass etc to make it work and I spend 10 mins putting his boots on before I ride if he's a bit footy in spring / autumn.

But then if I had decided to show him like some of my fellow riders do he'd need to be washed all the time, and have his tail in a bag, and be stabled before a show etc.

People don't say "if it needs a dressage saddle, buy one.  If it doesn't, get a GP".  What it needs is some way of making its back comfortable when you ride - how you do that is up to you so long as you don't get a manky old saddle with a broken tree and cripple the poor creature.

After all is said and done I bought him and go through the expense etc of having a horse so I can have my preferences when it comes to horse-care and riding, otherwise I could have carried on borrowing a friends horse when I wanted to ride.  If I choose to try to keep my horse barefoot through a special diet and some lifestyle changes, and use boots rather than metal shoes when problems occur, that is my choice.
		
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Just as it is the choice of those who shoe their horses to keep them shod.  To be honest, I am a little puzzled as to why you would find the 'if it needs shoes, shoe it, if it does not, then don't' take on things annoying.  You ask for freedom of choice and then seem to be trying to deny others the same right to make a choice 

I am not against the BF movement, although I agree with the previous poster who said that some on here have done it no favours, but I do find it a major concern that it is currently unregulated, until that is sorted out then I am afraid people will always question it.  As far as I can see there are no proper published and peer reviewed studies, although I am happy to be corrected on this.


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## rhino (26 July 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I hope you feel better for it. It certainly didn't help the discussion any, so it would be about the only benefit your effort achieved 

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Again, the sarcasm really doesn't help. If people want to post on the topic, they can and will. Just because you didn't feel the post relevant doesn't mean the same for everyone. It's silly throwaway comments like this that make people feel that any views which don't mirror the BT aren't welcome on the forum, which leads to the 2 'camps' which seem to have been created. I thought you were someone who valued discussion?



tallyho! said:



			On phone now so can't quote, but I was being defensive. Not inflammatory.
		
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Defensive. Inflammatory. Rude. All of the above IMO. It's been pointed out to you on threads before yet you seem completely unable to comprehend the terminology in your own posts


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## Pearlsasinger (26 July 2012)

Dee O'Dorant said:



			Commonsense, or horse sense, seems to be in short supply. Some of us oldies still maintain our ponies in the way they were maintained when we were children nearly half a century ago in my case, ie they lived out, had shelter not rugs, were fed only forage and were trimmed and left unshod. We tend to be the ones who don't have ponies with unmanageable behavioural issues or weight issues and laminitis, and whose ponies are rarely ever lame - just like when we were children.
		
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Quite so!

What I really don't get is the 'barefoot lifestyle choice' business.  Ours (a mixture as described before) live out 24/7 in Summer, in overnight through Winter to save the land and their legs.  If she needs one, the oldie wears a rug in bad weather, they can all wear one in atrocious weather, although we use keeping warm as a means of natural weight control. 
Depending on their individual needs, particularly based on weight which is monitored weekly, they get straw chaff/dried grass chaff/soaked grassnuts/Speedibeet/linseed oil/cider vinegar/ aloe vera juice/Brewers' yeast.  they all have Himalayan mineral lick available which one spends ages licking, one spends some time licking and the other barely touches.
They come in once a day in Summer to chaff and a look over, unless we are riding.
How does this necessitate me making a life-style choice?  Unless of course I choose not to have horses at all - very unlikely.
There is nothing mystical about keeping horses as naturally as possible, whilst maintaining a good relationship with the farrier, and expecting them to behave well.


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## tallyho! (26 July 2012)

So rhino, its ok for other people to be rude but not me?


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## thatsmygirl (26 July 2012)

When I took my lad barefoot it didn't work first time round and this was because his diet was wrong. Since working on this he's coping fine ( tb by the way) 
I would rather pay my £40 to my trimmer who goes through so much with me instead off quite trim/hack frogs off and pay please  
maybe if more horses are feed suitable diets, shoes could be cut back more. 
These bagged feeds have a lot to answer to I feel


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## rhino (26 July 2012)

tallyho! said:



			So rhino, its ok for other people to be rude but not me?
		
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No, but do you honestly think that your replies are not completely over the top and verging on hysterical? 

Going back to quirky's post (#229), do you really feel your replies are warranted? 

As others have mentioned, it's not the barefoot thing that is irritating, it is the attitude of certain posters on the subject. I have a lot of respect for those that are passionate about the subject and willing to take the time to give information, but it's getting more and more difficult to have any sort of reasonable discussion on the subject as it tends to be hijacked by overly emotional posts, and posters.


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## Arizahn (26 July 2012)

Just a thought:

With the price of metal rising, and the economy as it is, do you suppose shoes may become something that is seen as a luxury? Will hoof boots eventually become the normal practice?

Sorry, just wondering

HUGS FOR EVERYONE EVEN THOUGH I CURRENTLY STILL SMELL LIKE SOAKING WET COLLIE

Mwah-ha-ha


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## TwoStroke (26 July 2012)

Lol, you seen the price of hoofboots lately? Extortion! 

On another note... Has this post not become a tad absurd, now?


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## tallyho! (26 July 2012)

rhino said:



			No, but do you honestly think that your replies are not completely over the top and verging on hysterical? 

Going back to quirky's post (#229), do you really feel your replies are warranted? 

As others have mentioned, it's not the barefoot thing that is irritating, it is the attitude of certain posters on the subject. I have a lot of respect for those that are passionate about the subject and willing to take the time to give information, but it's getting more and more difficult to have any sort of reasonable discussion on the subject as it tends to be hijacked by overly emotional posts, and posters.
		
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Actually, there is only one other occasion where I got emotional over it.

It does seem unfair that quirky and horserider can post hysterical remarks about me yet go unnoticed.

Everything I feel is in those posts. I don't regret posting one bit of it as I am entitled to post my thoughts, hysterical as they may seem to you and a few others. It's the truth. I don't walk around sugarcoating everything like some feel they have to.

I feel it's a case of pot & kettle frankly. One rule for me and another for you.


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## Arizahn (26 July 2012)

TwoStroke said:



			Lol, you seen the price of hoofboots lately? Extortion! 

On another note... Has this post not become a tad absurd, now?
		
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Please don't remind me! Prices are scary indeed... But can you imagine if metal were to become too costly to use for shoeing? That would be a nightmare - the hoof boots would probably get even more expensive!

Is there a smiley for poster has fainted at the thought of hoof boots going up in price?


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## rhino (26 July 2012)

tallyho! said:



			Actually, there is only one other occasion where I got emotional over it.

It does seem unfair that quirky and horserider can post hysterical remarks about me yet go unnoticed.

Everything I feel is in those posts. I don't regret posting one bit of it as I am entitled to post my thoughts, hysterical as they may seem to you and a few others. It's the truth.

I feel it's a case of pot & kettle frankly. One rule for me and another for you.
		
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What 'rules'? Nobody has told you not to continue posting, but there is nothing rude about saying that someone's posts come across badly in their opinion. I don't feel you make the points you are trying to make because of the attitude behind them. Fair enough, you don't seem able to understand how people are offended by your posting, and I don't think that is likely to change. 

Twostroke - absolutely  The price of hoof boots doesn't bother me, the fact that I cant find any my horse is not allergic to (plastics/rubber) and faffing about with tubigrips under them doesn't work too well, does


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## cptrayes (26 July 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			The trimming organisations ought to have got their acts together gone to DEFRA I think DEFRA would have been the right place and arranged to base their training around NVQ's .
This would have been a good way forward I don't know why it has not happened that's what they need to do to counter these unlicensed arguments .
		
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The trimming organisation have a full set of National Occupational Standards in place but no-one will step forward to police it because it will cost money. It cannot of course be done by any of the organisations themselves. They negotiated these NOS standards alongside the farriers. They have done their best. They are the good guys. They are providing training. It is not up to them to police people who are perfectly legally trimming with no training.


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## Ibblebibble (26 July 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I completely agree with you. I wonder why we can't get the Farriery profession to listen? At the moment I'd have to come to the conclusion that they are too concerned about losing revenues, but it's happening under their noses at the moment.

Come on FRC/WCF,  we need two tiers of training - farrier/trimmers and non-farrier trimmers. Pull your fingers out!
		
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I've often wondered why the FRC/WCF don't see that barefoot isn't going to go away, they're not happy about barefoot trimmers/podiatrists but seem to prefer to stick their heads in the sand rather than step up and include barefoot trimming under their umbrella. if they got it right and made enough noise to get the laws changed so that only qualified trimmers could trim for money then i don't think they would lose money in the long term.  it would certainly give the general horse owner peace of mind to know that a trimmer was properly qualified rather than just having watched a dvd and got their anglegrinder out ( not saying all trimmers are like that obviously )


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## tallyho! (26 July 2012)

rhino said:



			What 'rules'? Nobody has told you not to continue posting, but there is nothing rude about saying that someone's posts come across badly in their opinion. I don't feel you make the points you are trying to make because of the attitude behind them. Fair enough, you don't seem able to understand how people are offended by your posting, and I don't think that is likely to change.
		
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That is exactly what I have done and I get told I'm hysterical but it's ok for you to do it? I am offended by posts too you know.

Ok, maybe my attitude doesn't help but I am sick of the name-calling on both sides and have tried to express that the people who work their horses unshod are not trying to belittle anyone... which is what quirky insinuated to begin with.

However, I love to argue incessantly about inane things like whether or not I am hysterical, so please, keep entertaining me.


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## quirky (26 July 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Who would, and why? 

You seem quite disturbed by "the barefoot movement". How about you give it a go?
		
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I don't know who would approach them and why, it was something you mentioned and I wondered if anything had been done by anybody. It wasn't meant to be snarky .

I am not disturbed in the least about "the barefoot movement". I have seen first hand how a woman had 3 weeks training, set herself up with a swanky website and calls herself professional.

I left Uni and a 4 yr (sandwich course) in engineering. I knew all there was to know about it . Only years of facing different conundrums day in day out made me the decent engineer I ended up.

As said previously, I had my horse unshod before barefoot had been adopted and proselytised. No fancy feeding, no fancy grazing ideas, just old fashioned horse management and a great farrier or two (moved to different part of the country) on the way


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## Arizahn (26 July 2012)

rhino said:



			Twostroke - absolutely  The price of hoof boots doesn't bother me, the fact that I cant find any my horse is not allergic to (plastics/rubber) and faffing about with tubigrips under them doesn't work too well, does 

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Oh dear - when the corporations take all our metal away to build colonies on alien infested worlds, you will really be in trouble!

Sorry, in a daft moodHope you find some that your horse isn't allergic to!


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## MerrySherryRider (26 July 2012)

tallyho! said:



			Actually, there is only one other occasion where I got emotional over it.

It does seem unfair that quirky and horserider can post hysterical remarks about me yet go unnoticed.

Everything I feel is in those posts. I don't regret posting one bit of it as I am entitled to post my thoughts, hysterical as they may seem to you and a few others. It's the truth. I don't walk around sugarcoating everything like some feel they have to.

I feel it's a case of pot & kettle frankly. One rule for me and another for you.
		
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 I'm a tad confused. As far as I'm aware I've never made personal remarks about anyone. 
My comments are general observations directed at the excesses of the barefoot movement as opposed to having unshod horses trimmed by a farrier.


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## cptrayes (26 July 2012)

By Rhino
Again, the sarcasm really doesn't help. If people want to post on the topic, they can and will. Just because you didn't feel the post relevant doesn't mean the same for everyone. It's silly throwaway comments like this that make people feel that any views which don't mirror the BT aren't welcome on the forum, which leads to the 2 'camps' which seem to have been created. I thought you were someone who valued discussion?
		
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Come on Rhino, be fair and put my post in context! It was a reply to someone who said:




			I try to stay out of the barefoot arguments as much as is possible but sometimes really have to sit on my hands as I just cannot understand why anyone would want to condemn there horse to months of walking about crippled in the "adjustment" period , then subject the poor thing to a life of 24hr mussel wearing or excessive stabling and feeding patterns just to say they are natural and bare foot sounds crazy to me at best and sometimes down right cruel

....... some barefoot people (not all) think they are the law of hooves and every horse shouldn't have shoes on and ram it down the throats of everyone

Well that's my rant and also why I don't usually get involved
		
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I DO like a reasoned discussion, which is precisely why I made the post that I did and finished two other points with that particular sentence.


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## TwoStroke (26 July 2012)

rhino said:



			Twostroke - absolutely  The price of hoof boots doesn't bother me, the fact that I cant find any my horse is not allergic to (plastics/rubber) and faffing about with tubigrips under them doesn't work too well, does 

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Now you're talking my language. My flipping TB is allergic to everything under the sun *angryface*. Even orthopedic lambskin!


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## rhino (26 July 2012)

Arizahn said:



			Oh dear - when the corporations take all our metal away to build colonies on alien infested worlds, you will really be in trouble!

Sorry, in a daft moodHope you find some that your horse isn't allergic to!
		
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He's an absolute nightmare! I'm tempted to borrow the anglegrinder mentioned earlier and just chop his feet off, can't do any harm surely? 




			You could say that you are setting yourself apart from the many that don't find it as easy as you do. Aren't you the one being evangelical about the management of your horses? Yet see that it's ok to belittle others whilst at the same time lording it over everyone about how wonderful things are for you? Not just you but the unshod mafia that see fit to bash barefooters. Saying things like we walk a higher ground. Christ what set of glasses do you wear to see people in this way? Chip on shoulder much?

Well excuse me for not being around 40 years ago to witness amazing marvels of unshod horse keeping. What a shame I have to watch my horse struggle in shoes for years while my experts tell me this needs doing and he needs these drugs and I need to pay £6000 so he can live. All I needed to do was be around back in the day when unshod was what people did. It's such a shame I did not know you quirky. Could have saved myself a fortune!

What a fool i must be.


No thanks to the moaners like you but more thanks to the people who bothered to reply to my posts about my barefoot transition. The barefooters helped me. Those who were against it, just ridiculed me. Just like you are doing now, further segregating yourself form any meaningful input that offers any kind of help because you don't want to be seen to be part of barefoot. It sounds like you have plenty of knowledge but rather than offer some, you would rather ridicule me for having a barefoot horse because you believe we are all idiots who serve to make other people feel stupid for shoeing.

I do care though because I don't like to see helpful people being called names just for believing in something.

Well then I can call you rude too for your original post as you were insinuating all barefooters are full of twaddle as you call it.

Yes, I take umbrage. I don't see the difference between you calling the barefooters names and saying all the barefooters do is serve to make shod people feel small.

THAT is twaddle in my eyes. If you don't like barefoot why do you bother posting... Same goes to all others who agree with you.

Sorry if my taking offence makes you laugh but I don't see why you should take the mickey out people who struggle to get it right for their horse. That was me at one point. We all have to learn.

Sorry Rhino and quirky, I didn't know I was arguing about agreeing with me!

I thought I was being defensive? As its a forum, I am allowed aren't I? Rhino should know, she knows about all that kind of stuff.

You can post what you like according to me but when you offend me, I can post back and say why.

Whoops! Sorry. I only get rude when others get rude about "barefoot people" i.e. calling names and also when people say things like "I would never let my horse get uncomfortable barefoot" without knowing anything about it - I take that as an insult and do get what you like to call "evangelical" about it. Would you do that to my face?

Anyway, sorry if I spoil it, but I am allowed to stand up and defend my beliefs - just like everyone is entitled to oppose it...

I get incensed that it's ok to be rude about the barefoot taliban, yet when people who have barefoot horses, shout back it's not ok? I get retorts like "if you don't agree with tallyho, don't post etc etc" when all I am saying is that why post if all you want to do is be mean? I will now ignore what I consider to be mean posts aimed at this race of people called "barefooters".

Also, the outrageous claims that people with barefoot horses make people with shod horses feel inferior??? Sorry everyone FEELS that way. That is not my problem but why bat barefoot people over the head with it?

It's the fact it's called "barefoot" isn't it? - thats what riles people. But that isn't my problem neither nor is it anyone elses.

Sorry, there I go again but I feel I should explain myself. I have no problem if people want to contribute in a positive way. I just fume with the name-calling. I don't think there's any need for that. I will try not to get so emotional

quirky, let me tell you. Many of my friends have well shod ridden, competing horses. Many of my friends have well trimmed ridden, competing horses and ponies.

I do not do a "down doer" on them. I manage my horses how I want to, they do it their way and we learn from each other. Please come to see me and tell me to my face I "down do" you. The horses I ride for people come shod or unshod, and as long as sound and performing I'm a happy rider.

Why you have to pick a fight with barefooters I will never know.

Yes I posted that because you feel the need to come on a fairly level discussion and berate barefooters. Why shouldn't I ask you why you bother posting if you just want to be nasty? In my opinion, thats what it sounds like when you post. You haven't got a nice word to say and that is why I come across as rude towards you because I don't like the way you accuse barefooters of doing imaginary things.

Sorry to be rude to you, I can't stand it when people "down do" barefooters who are just ordinary people who are on a learning curve.

p.s. I have never come across a barefooter who has done a "down doer" on anyone. Most, if not all, barefooters had a shod horse once and may use shoes again if necessary.
		
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I fail to see how anything I've written on the thread can be compared to this?


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## pookie (26 July 2012)

What this topic needs is a bit of equality. There should be (is?) research into pros and cons of keeping horses unshod, and there should be (is?) research of similar breadth and depth into pros and cons of shoeing.

What irks me on both sides are the people who feel there is only ONE way all horses MUST be kept - if there's a Barefoot Taliban then*there's very much a Shoeing Mujahideen. Neither should be acceptable but neither really has much to do with whether people keep their horses shod or unshod...it's simply individual personality types.

'Barefoot' wasn't a 'thing' when I was growing up...but people sure a hell kept their horses unshod and kept them well


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## cptrayes (26 July 2012)

horserider said:



			I'm a tad confused. As far as I'm aware I've never made personal remarks about anyone. 
My comments are general observations directed at the excesses of the barefoot movement as opposed to having unshod horses trimmed by a farrier.
		
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What excesses are you annoyed about?

I have a suspicion that the things you are annoyed about are, in turn, general observations about the excesses of unnecessary or even damaging shoeing; low sugar high fibre diets and a foot-friendly way of managing horses.

But if you point out some individual instances, in context, then maybe we will understand you better?


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## tallyho! (26 July 2012)

cptrayes said:



			The trimming organisation have a full set of National Occupational Standards in place but no-one will step forward to police it because it will cost money. It cannot of course be done by any of the organisations themselves. They negotiated these NOS standards alongside the farriers. They have done their best. They are the good guys. They are providing training. It is not up to them to police people who are perfectly legally trimming with no training.
		
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The thing to do is, if you want a trimmer, is to make sure you go to the UKNHCP or UKAEP. At least then the customer will know they are paying for someone who has had an approved level of training.  (LANTRA)


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## TwoStroke (26 July 2012)

pookie said:



			Shoeing Mujahideen
		
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Muahahaha, that one's going on the wall .


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## rhino (26 July 2012)

TwoStroke said:



			Now you're talking my language. My flipping TB is allergic to everything under the sun *angryface*. Even orthopedic lambskin!
		
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Any insider tips for me then? I'm lucky enough to have access to plenty of quiet roads but can't do any of our lovely tracks without boots, and can't do boots  I tried with ski socks under boots but it was a bit of a disaster (though fairly entertaining)


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## cptrayes (26 July 2012)

pookie said:



			What irks me on both sides are the people who feel there is only ONE way all horses MUST be kept - if there's a Barefoot Taliban then*there's very much a Shoeing Mujahideen.
		
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Who ARE these people? I keep hearing them written about but I never see the blighters posting!


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## tallyho! (26 July 2012)

rhino said:



			He's an absolute nightmare! I'm tempted to borrow the anglegrinder mentioned earlier and just chop his feet off, can't do any harm surely? 



I fail to see how anything I've written on the thread can be compared to this? 

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No it doesn't because you were not responding to specific posts like I was but it doesn't stop you having an opinion on my posts. Just like I have opinions on other peoples posts. Why do have to keep making me reiterate my points?

What I wrote is no worse than what some others have written rhino. Please take it onto context and do not twist my words to suit you.

Are you not READING what I have written??? I am ANGRY that people take the MICKEY. I'm sick of it. Is that not clear??? Can't be because you need me to keep reminding you.

Why do you care anyway?

P.S. HAVE YOU TRIED LEATHER CAVALLOS?


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## pookie (26 July 2012)

TwoStroke - we could have an entire array of horse care despots 

cptrayes - that'll be because of the nifty covert attire they sport for the purpose  Seriously, I've come into contact with both - I've yet to see them on here (I don't read every thread) but HHO isn't the only place horse care is discussed.


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## TwoStroke (26 July 2012)

rhino said:



			Any insider tips for me then? I'm lucky enough to have access to plenty of quiet roads but can't do any of our lovely tracks without boots, and can't do boots  I tried with ski socks under boots but it was a bit of a disaster (though fairly entertaining) 

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Unfortunately my TB has enough soft tissue damage to cripple a small army, so is swanning around in the field atm. When he was sound he was able to go barefoot, so no boots required.

Since I've moved yards, though, the hacking is somewhat rougher, so I'm currently looking into booting options in the event that he comes sound again. I thought about maybe using the hoof skins under boots, but he'd probably be allergic to them too. Casts or glue ons are an option, but I'm not keen. I may try devising my own gaitor for an easyboot shell out of some of the material that his xc boots are made of (NEW airflow ones - one of the few things he's not allergic to!).

It would be SO much easier to put shoes on, but his feet are wrecked, so it's not really an option, even if I wanted to.


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## Arizahn (26 July 2012)

rhino said:



			He's an absolute nightmare! I'm tempted to borrow the anglegrinder mentioned earlier and just chop his feet off, can't do any harm surely? 

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They did that in a film...think it was Bill Murray...con artist pretending to be Amish!

Cyber horses are the way to go - we could even have a nervous-novice button for use in emergencies! I'd use it


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## cptrayes (26 July 2012)

quirky said:



			As said previously, I had my horse unshod before barefoot had been adopted and proselytised. No fancy feeding, no fancy grazing ideas, just old fashioned horse management and a great farrier or two (moved to different part of the country) on the way 

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You didn't just have old fashioned horse management and  a great farrier, though you had both of those.

You also had:

- grazing that was not overrich for your horses

- grazing and forage that were not minerally unbalanced (iron and manganese overload causing copper deficiency with associated insulin and foot quality issues are coming up time and again in analyses from around the country)

- the time/energy/facilities to work your horses in a consistent fashion, or the luck to own horses that coped fine with varying workloads. Some don't.

- horses without Cushings/IR/EMS/EPSM all of which are likely to find barefoot difficult but because of foot weakness are also those likely to be damaged by shoes.

- the  knowledge that marketers are wrong when they tell you that sugar laden muesli is a good food for your horse, however temptingly the message is pushed at you.

- the knowledge that fat horses are unhealthy horses, and to know a fat horse when you see one.

- the knowledge to recognise a good or bad farriery job when you see it.

And probably a lot more.

It baffles me why you get so worked up about us giving advice to the people who do not have your luck!


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## rhino (26 July 2012)

TwoStroke said:



			Unfortunately my TB has enough soft tissue damage to cripple a small army, so is swanning around in the field atm. When he was sound he was able to go barefoot, so no boots required.

Since I've moved yards, though, the hacking is somewhat rougher, so I'm currently looking into booting options in the event that he comes sound again. I thought about maybe using the hoof skins under boots, but he'd probably be allergic to them too. Casts or glue ons are an option, but I'm not keen. I may try devising my own gaitor for an easyboot shell out of some of the material that his xc boots are made of (NEW airflow ones - one of the few things he's not allergic to!).

It would be SO much easier to put shoes on, but his feet are wrecked, so it's not really an option, even if I wanted to.
		
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Nothing to stop me putting shoes on if I want to; I have always had brilliant farriers who have kept him entirely sound through his career  Field accident last summer means he can't be ridden, but neither do I think he's ready to be chucked out and left, so he is going out in hand every day. Would be nice if I could leave the shoes off (farrier's idea in the first place) but not sure how practical it's going to be in the long term.

Yes tallyho, I'm reading _what_ you post, I'm also reading _how_ you post...


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## MerrySherryRider (26 July 2012)

cptrayes said:



			What excesses are you annoyed about?

I have a suspicion that the things you are annoyed about are, in turn, general observations about the excesses of unnecessary or even damaging shoeing; low sugar high fibre diets and a foot-friendly way of managing horses.

But if you point out some individual instances, in context, then maybe we will understand you better?
		
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Erm, no. Can't say I'm actually annoyed. Bemused by the whole fanaticism. 

How did we ever manage to keep horses and ponies unshod and sound before Barefoot overtook HHO?


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## Goldenstar (26 July 2012)

Still playing nicely everyone?
Just back from playing with my lifestyle choice BF horse .


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## quirky (26 July 2012)

cptrayes said:



			You didn't just have old fashioned horse management and  a great farrier, though you had both of those.
- the  knowledge that marketers are wrong when they tell you that sugar laden muesli is a good food for your horse, however temptingly the message is pushed at you.
		
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I don't think muesli was around that long ago .
All my horses have been fed straights 

You cptrayes, I can see you are passionate about barefoot, whilst I am ambivalent about it either way.

What I do object to is being told time and again that people who keep their horses shod do so because they can't be @rsed to transition to barefoot because it is too difficult for them. It infers that we don't do the best for our horses  and that we are somehow lesser horse people because of it.


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## Clava (26 July 2012)

horserider said:



			How did we ever manage to keep horses and ponies unshod and sound before Barefoot overtook HHO?
		
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Maybe straights were more frequently fed rather than mollassed feeds (we certainly didn't feed any mixes) and fields were less fertilised and produced, less stabling for ponies, less rugging for sure - lots of things have changed to make it harder to keep horses without shoes than it used to be and knowing more about forage and minerals have in turn made it easier


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## tallyho! (26 July 2012)

rhino said:



			Yes tallyho, I'm reading _what_ you post, I'm also reading _how_ you post...
		
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Thats good. I hope you will understand now why I get so irate.


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## ILuvCowparsely (26 July 2012)

Wow What a long thread.


I like having my pony barefoot as does not work much, and she seems fine,my donkey did have shoes on the front  (Vets instructions).

 Its all down to personal preference and what my horses are doing,  One of my mares cannot go barefoot in front anymore. We tried 3 years to get her feet right, but unfortunately due to her past history it is not right for her.  Front shoes is the way to go, her feet were chronic when we bought her . This is the day she arrived.  
 And yes the slits got from the ground almost to coronet and the other way  ( sandcracks and grass cracks )
	
	
		
		
	


	




.
 She is a different horse now with fronts on , but the battle to stop the flaring  goes on. 

Some horses do better with shoes - some barefoot -down to personal preference - individual needs etc.  There is no right or wrong in my book you do what is best for your horse  his needs- and his situation.IMO


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## tallyho! (26 July 2012)

Wow... glad she is comfortable now Leviathan.


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## cptrayes (26 July 2012)

Rhino, serious question, not a dig. You posted earlier about dangerous advice on nutrition that you are seeing posted. I've been thinking about my own posts. I try to point out that seaweed is not a good idea unless you know that your horse is low enough in iron and iodine whenever I see it recommended. I always say that I add copper because we are high in manganese and iron here but I will start adding that copper in excess is poisonous to my posts on that.  We've had a discussion before and come to the conclusion that magnesium oxide is probably harmless in excess. I can't think of anything that anyone else is suggesting (yeast, cinnamon, linseed) that would be dangerous, but I would hate to think that any advice I've been party to could be.

Is there anything specific that you were referring to, or is it the danger of over-supplementing altogether that you see as the problem? Help me with a "health warning" wording and I'll happily use it on all nutrition posts in future.

Ta!


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## quirky (26 July 2012)

tallyho! said:



			OMG... still???? Even after all my rude, inflammatory and hysterical posts???? 

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I knew you'd come round to my way of thinking soon enough


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## Pearlsasinger (26 July 2012)

cptrayes said:



			You didn't just have old fashioned horse management and  a great farrier, though you had both of those.

You also had:

- grazing that was not overrich for your horses

- grazing and forage that were not minerally unbalanced (iron and manganese overload causing copper deficiency with associated insulin and foot quality issues are coming up time and again in analyses from around the country)

- the time/energy/facilities to work your horses in a consistent fashion, or the luck to own horses that coped fine with varying workloads. Some don't.

- horses without Cushings/IR/EMS/EPSM all of which are likely to find barefoot difficult but because of foot weakness are also those likely to be damaged by shoes.

- the  knowledge that marketers are wrong when they tell you that sugar laden muesli is a good food for your horse, however temptingly the message is pushed at you.

- the knowledge that fat horses are unhealthy horses, and to know a fat horse when you see one.

- the knowledge to recognise a good or bad farriery job when you see one.

And probably a lot more.

It baffles me why you get so worked up about us giving advice to the people who do not have your luck!
		
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I can't speak for quirky but I can say (although I don't get worked up about people giving sensible advice) that it does annoy me when I see posts about *my luck*.  Most of your points could have been made about me.
The luck I've had in relation to horses/horsekeeping was
1. the RS I first went to - pure luck because a school friend lived near (although most in the district were comparable).
2. being introduced to the excellent farrier the RS used, who was our 1st  farrier and who was involved in the training our subsequent farriers - except the one we only had 3 times.

Everything else has been down to our own research, observation of horses and common-sense.  It really doesn't take a genius to work out that grass is better for horses to eat than molasses.  As for bad luck - we've had plenty of that but very little in regard to horses' feet!

I wish that there were more threads about good feeding for horses which were not related to whether the horse wears shoes or not.


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## cptrayes (26 July 2012)

horserider said:



			Erm, no. Can't say I'm actually annoyed. Bemused by the whole fanaticism. 

How did we ever manage to keep horses and ponies unshod and sound before Barefoot overtook HHO?
		
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Exactly the same way it is done now. Only now, there are fewer horses every day being shod when they do not need it just because it has become received wisdom that all horses doing road work, hunting, etc need shoes.  And people have worked out how to do it for the difficult ones, when previously they were the horses who "just needed shoes".

And horses are alive who would have been dead because it has been a genuine discovery of the barefoot movement that removing the shoes has about a 4 times greater chance of returning a horse with foot lameness to work as conventional medication and remedial shoes.

Barefoot overtook HHO? A tiny proportion of threads are about barefoot and you are not forced to read them. Get real!


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## tallyho! (26 July 2012)

quirky said:



			I knew you'd come round to my way of thinking soon enough 

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Who says I'm finished?


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## TwoStroke (26 July 2012)

Leviathan said:



			Wow What a long thread.


I like having my pony barefoot as does not work much, and she seems fine,my donkey did have shoes on the front  (Vets instructions).

 Its all down to personal preference and what my horses are doing,  One of my mares cannot go barefoot in front anymore. We tried 3 years to get her feet right, but unfortunately due to her past history it is not right for her.  Front shoes is the way to go, her feet were chronic when we bought her . This is the day she arrived.  
 And yes the slits got from the ground almost to coronet and the other way  ( sandcracks and grass cracks )
	
	
		
		
	


	




.
 She is a different horse now with fronts on , but the battle to stop the flaring  goes on. 

Some horses do better with shoes - some barefoot -down to personal preference - individual needs etc.  There is no right or wrong in my book you do what is best for your horse  his needs- and his situation.IMO
		
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I'd be interested in seeing pics of her feet now, if you have any, Leviathan?

My youngster's feet looked like this when I got him. They resolved pretty easily, though, so I guess it's horses for courses. Now they look like this:


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## cptrayes (26 July 2012)

Pearlsasinger said:



			I can't speak for quirky but I can say (although I don't get worked up about people giving sensible advice) that it does annoy me when I see posts about *my luck*.  Most of your points could have been made about me.
The luck I've had in relation to horses/horsekeeping was
1. the RS I first went to - pure luck because a school friend lived near (although most in the district were comparable).
2. being introduced to the excellent farrier the RS used, who was our 1st  farrier and who was involved in the training our subsequent farriers - except the one we only had 3 times.

Everything else has been down to our own research, observation of horses and common-sense.  It really doesn't take a genius to work out that grass is better for horses to eat than molasses.  As for bad luck - we've had plenty of that but very little in regard to horses' feet!
		
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You don't consider it luck that you were born with sufficient brains to do your own research and to work out that grass is better for a horse than Spillers very expensive and well marketed molassed feed if you were a new owner? If indeed it is. Spring and autumn grass is lethal for some horses. Or lucky to be in a position, time-wise, money-wise and geography-wise to "observe horses"? Or to manage to have avoided buying one with metabolic disease affecting the feet?

I do. Other people are not so lucky as you or me.  You get annoyed about people thinking you are lucky? I get annoyed that people who are lucky can't see their own luck. So we balance each other out. 



Pearlsasinger said:



			I wish that there were more threads about good feeding for horses which were not related to whether the horse wears shoes or not.
		
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Good feeding is good feeding whether you shoe your horse or not. But people only ask questions about it when they have a problem, and because of the way horses are made, those problems always show in the feet. Just read the threads and ignore the stuff about having no shoes on, it's irrelevant.


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## rhino (26 July 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Rhino, serious question, not a dig. You posted earlier about dangerous advice on nutrition that you are seeing posted. I've been thinking about my own posts. I try to point out that seaweed is not a good idea unless you know that your horse is low enough in iron and iodine whenever I see it recommended. I always say that I add copper because we are high in manganese and iron here but I will start adding that copper in excess is poisonous to my posts on that.  We've had a discussion before and come to the conclusion that magnesium oxide is probably harmless in excess. I can't think of anything that anyone else is suggesting (yeast, cinnamon, linseed) that would be dangerous, but I would hate to think that any advice I've been party to could be.

Is there anything specific that you were referring to, or is it the danger of over-supplementing altogether that you see as the problem? Help me with a "health warning" wording and I'll happily use it on all nutrition posts in future.

Ta!
		
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It is a more general thing, and I think you are very careful in your posts to not state anything as a guarantee, but instead say that in your experience/in other people's experiences it has been seen to have a positive effect. The problem seems to be when other people then pass on the information, without the caveats. 

It may well be that all the suggestions made are effective and safe, just that we don't know enough to categorically state that they are. And then there's always the exception to the rule anyway, which my horse is very good at being!

Aargh nutrition winds me up! Why then have I agreed to take up a sponsored place on a nutrition PGD? Madness..


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## cptrayes (26 July 2012)

rhino said:



			Aargh nutrition winds me up! Why then have I agreed to take up a sponsored place on a nutrition PGD? Madness..
		
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Well the psychologists do say that people gravitate towards careers that they have some kind of problem with 

What worries me about it is that there is one course, by Dr Kellon, available online at a price, which is being used as the absolute bible of horse nutrition. I think we share concerns that we may not know as much as we think we do!


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## sonicgold (26 July 2012)

Just come to this thread, and been around horses quite a while, have one shod and one BF. Why the mix? because it suits them. Apart from this bally weather I have, thus far had no hassles. They both get a good varied diet which has not changed to accommodate BF, and as for this, that and the next thing I use my common sense and listen to my horse. 
Sorry if I come across as cynical but imo horses are what they eat and were designed to be foragers ranging across old grass, therefore why do most livery yard owners insist on high nitrogen fertilizers which give a quick chemical sugar rich green up but no substance. If you need to fertilize why not use seaweed? A good forage rich diet, balancer for vits and mins, and plenty of turn out on old grass and surely you have half the problems solved. 
If a horse is uncomfortable ridden then use boots. I wouldn't take my shoes off and immediately expect to walk miles on soft bare feet. I fasten my hoof boots to my breastplate when we don't need them.  Oh and I commit the "cardinal sin", a good trim from an excellent farrier. 
Sorry about the soapbox but I get so cross about any "fashion" and how folks jump on the bandwagon regardless of thought or common sense. Talking of which, did anybody see the recent article on Horse mag on BF?


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## ILuvCowparsely (26 July 2012)

TwoStroke said:



			I'd be interested in seeing pics of her feet now, if you have any, Leviathan?

My youngster's feet looked like this when I got him. They resolved pretty easily, though, so I guess it's horses for courses. Now they look like this:










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Will post some after the farriers been  she is a week overdue.  As we are changing farriers


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## rhino (26 July 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Well the psychologists do say that people gravitate towards careers that they have some kind of problem with 

What worries me about it is that there is one course, by Dr Kellon, available online at a price, which is being used as the absolute bible of horse nutrition. I think we share concerns that we may not know as much as we think we do!
		
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NRC Plus! Almost wholly based on the NRC 2007 guidelines  

As you say, it's a bought 'qualification'




			This is a no pressure learning situation. There is no mandatory attendance at any time, no grades. The review questions are for your use only. I assume that anyone taking the course is doing so because they want to learn more about equine nutrition. You can read when it is convenient for you to do so.  However, if you wish to receive credit for this course an exam will be given towards the end of the course. You will need a 70% to pass. You may take the test more than once.
		
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Note the 'exam' is online so nothing to stop anyone having access to all the course materials, or getting others to help.

As a basic horseowner's course I think it is better than nothing, but am I correct in thinking that this is the only nutritional background required of UKNHCP trainees?


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## Pearlsasinger (26 July 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Good feeding is good feeding whether you shoe your horse or not. But people only ask questions about it when they have a problem, and because of the way horses are made, those problems always show in the feet. Just read the threads and ignore the stuff about having no shoes on, it's irrelevant.
		
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Actually it is not true that feeding problems always show in the feet.  I used to have a WelshDxTB mare who had terrible digestion problems.  We eventually realised that she could not tolerate ANY cereal/molasses (yes we too had fed some commercial feeds), caused, we think by being 'fed up' by a previous owner who found her neglected.  Her feet were brilliant all her life, with or without shoes.  Her myriad problems were definitely NOT in her feet!


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## TwoStroke (26 July 2012)

Pearlsasinger said:



			Actually it is not true that feeding problems always show in the feet.  I used to have a WelshDxTB mare who had terrible digestion problems.  We eventually realised that she could not tolerate ANY cereal/molasses (yes we too had fed some commercial feeds), caused, we think by being 'fed up' by a previous owner who found her neglected.  Her feet were brilliant all her life, with or without shoes.  Her myriad problems were definitely NOT in her feet!
		
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Really? No ripples, flare or separation at all? That's fascinating. Don't suppose you have any pics? *geek alert*


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## sonicgold (26 July 2012)

Just seen CP Trays thread about nutrition. Yes some spring and autumn grass can cause all sorts of problems, but is it the grass per se or the way it is managed? If you have to change from bare "summer fields", to winter fields which have rich grass a foot high and do it overnight surely trouble is waiting to happen? [We wouldn't dream of changing bucket feeds overnight.] Add to that the in at night in the winter therefore bucket feeds and haylage, and I can see why so many problems occur. The reverse happens in the spring, out off mud onto rested fertilized ground 24/7 and the potential for the L word is waiting for you. 
I know that is very simplistic, and I know I am very lucky to keep mine where I do.


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## hoofguy (26 July 2012)

horserider said:



			Fanatical, evangelical barefootiness etc etc. its such a turn off. 

Working unshod horses is not new, but the money making spin is. 

Obsessing doesn't make a good owner, neither does blaming a farrier for ruining your horse. Learning to recognise a well balanced and well shod horse is pretty essential for a horse owner.

Horse care is the same for shod and unshod horses. Appropriate diet, fresh air and exercise. No money in that approach though.
		
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I agree.. not many horse went to war unshod either.. at least a farrier can drop by when you think you may have an abcess brewing and sort it all, part of the service.. knowledge is power. unshod is fine... farriers usually do straight talking whereas some clients want gushing compliments.. tricky balance when you are against the clock and 40 miles from the nxt client..


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## Pearlsasinger (26 July 2012)

TwoStroke said:



			Really? No ripples, flare or separation at all? That's fascinating. Don't suppose you have any pics? *geek alert*
		
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No absolutely nothing.

We do have photos of her - we had her for 20 years but we don't have any specifically of her feet, I don't think.  And tbh, as I'm one of those posters who has been talking about the way we used to keep horses, you won't be surprised to find that even if we do I probably can't put them on here.  We certainly won't have any saved to a computer, she died in 2005 aged 24.  We did once have to ask the farrier to come back after she'd been shod, her feet seemed to be particularly sensitive on that occasion.  He could find nothing specially wrong.  We decided that her 'tickly feet' went with her sensitive skin.  This was quite a while before we realised that her many problems were caused by her digestive system.


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## BeesKnees (26 July 2012)

hoofguy said:



			I agree.. not many horse went to war unshod either...
		
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That may be true hoofguy but you surely cannot be equating the need to shoe war horses with a need to shoe the modern leisure horse who on average may get a couple of hours work a day, and many not even that?!

Whatever war horses needs were, they are completely irrelevant in this discussion.


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## LucyPriory (26 July 2012)

BeesKnees said:



			That may be true hoofguy but you surely cannot be equating the need to shoe war horses with a need to shoe the modern leisure horse who on average may get a couple of hours work a day, and many not even that?!

Whatever war horses needs were, they are completely irrelevant in this discussion.
		
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No but Houston (and Austen) police horses go to war/work on the city streets 6 days a week 8 hours a day.  Only booted for initial rehab and riots


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## Herpesas (26 July 2012)

My horse dictates he remains shod.  He is on a high fibre, low sugar and starch diet with vits and mineral supplement, has daily turnout (he dislikes being out 24/7, 365days) on a good mix of grass types, he's exercised 5 days a week.

A few years ago, for mainly financial reasons, I removed his back shoes.  He's got quite good back feet, strong with lots of straight growth.  Acknowledging there would be a transition period, I reduced his hacking and roadwork to 1 hour a week and, after 6 weeks, his feet were BARE and farrier advised shoes would need to go back on (I'll point out at this stage that farrier can see benefits to both barefoot trimming and shoeing; and practises both).  Also, when Hoss had an abcess last year, he wore through 2 rubber/canvas poultice boots in 3 weeks on boxrest - he is hard on his feet!

Hoss's front feet are too small for his frame with heels prone to being narrow and toes prone to flaring; he's also slightly pidgeon toed. In wet weather his feet go as soft as Brie. Farrier has advised against taking his front shoes off due to these issues and I follow his advice. He is shod all round in Natural Balance shoes with two toe clips, every 5 weeks.

In all other respects my management of him is considered and sympathetic.  He has loads of hay even when turned out, is ridden on all terrains and enjoys an active and varied life (when a shoulder injury isn't bothering him).  He receives attention from a qualified back lady fortnightly, the saddler every 3 months and is the happiest I have seen him.

I would not consider going barefoot with him at this time and yes I am at ease with 'nailing lumps of metal to his feet'.  If he had an injury/illness where removing his shoes may save him or improve his condition then of course I would reconsider our position.

I have kept other horses unshod/barefoot successfully and don't have a problem with doing so if the horse takes to it or has never been shod - as others have pointed out, it's also often (but not always) cheaper.  I also have a friend who has recently sent her horse to Rockley and is one of their many success stories.

I can see merits for both styles of management and will apply what I (as the owner) feel is best for the horse I have at the time.  It may be wrong, it may not be as successful as another method but I can only do what I feel is the best option at the time after much consideration.

I will add that I was reading an article about remedial shoeing the other day and was dismayed by the number of comments from people that stated people were ignorant idiots for shoeing their horses at all - all horses suit being barefoot regardless of the individual circumstances in which the horse is kept!  No, I'm sorry, they don't and by stating such IMO these people are just as ignorant.


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## sonicgold (26 July 2012)

Herpesas said:



			My horse dictates he remains shod.  He is on a high fibre, low sugar and starch diet with vits and mineral supplement, has daily turnout (he dislikes being out 24/7, 365days) on a good mix of grass types, he's exercised 5 days a week.

A few years ago, for mainly financial reasons, I removed his back shoes.  He's got quite good back feet, strong with lots of straight growth.  Acknowledging there would be a transition period, I reduced his hacking and roadwork to 1 hour a week and, after 6 weeks, his feet were BARE and farrier advised shoes would need to go back on (I'll point out at this stage that farrier can see benefits to both barefoot trimming and shoeing; and practises both).  Also, when Hoss had an abcess last year, he wore through 2 rubber/canvas poultice boots in 3 weeks on boxrest - he is hard on his feet!

Hoss's front feet are too small for his frame with heels prone to being narrow and toes prone to flaring; he's also slightly pidgeon toed. In wet weather his feet go as soft as Brie. Farrier has advised against taking his front shoes off due to these issues and I follow his advice. He is shod all round in Natural Balance shoes with two toe clips, every 5 weeks.

In all other respects my management of him is considered and sympathetic.  He has loads of hay even when turned out, is ridden on all terrains and enjoys an active and varied life (when a shoulder injury isn't bothering him).  He receives attention from a qualified back lady fortnightly, the saddler every 3 months and is the happiest I have seen him.

I would not consider going barefoot with him at this time and yes I am at ease with 'nailing lumps of metal to his feet'.  If he had an injury/illness where removing his shoes may save him or improve his condition then of course I would reconsider our position.

I have kept other horses unshod/barefoot successfully and don't have a problem with doing so if the horse takes to it or has never been shod - as others have pointed out, it's also often (but not always) cheaper.  I also have a friend who has recently sent her horse to Rockley and is one of their many success stories.

I can see merits for both styles of management and will apply what I (as the owner) feel is best for the horse I have at the time.  It may be wrong, it may not be as successful as another method but I can only do what I feel is the best option at the time after much consideration.

I will add that I was reading an article about remedial shoeing the other day and was dismayed by the number of comments from people that stated people were ignorant idiots for shoeing their horses at all - all horses suit being barefoot regardless of the individual circumstances in which the horse is kept!  No, I'm sorry, they don't and by stating such IMO these people are just as ignorant.
		
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Quite.


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## Amaranta (26 July 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Rhino, serious question, not a dig. You posted earlier about dangerous advice on nutrition that you are seeing posted. I've been thinking about my own posts. I try to point out that seaweed is not a good idea unless you know that your horse is low enough in iron and iodine whenever I see it recommended. I always say that I add copper because we are high in manganese and iron here but I will start adding that copper in excess is poisonous to my posts on that.  We've had a discussion before and come to the conclusion that magnesium oxide is probably harmless in excess. I can't think of anything that anyone else is suggesting (yeast, cinnamon, linseed) that would be dangerous, but I would hate to think that any advice I've been party to could be.

Is there anything specific that you were referring to, or is it the danger of over-supplementing altogether that you see as the problem? Help me with a "health warning" wording and I'll happily use it on all nutrition posts in future.

Ta!
		
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Now see magnesium inhibits the uptake of calcium, I do get very concerned when I see people recommending it willy nilly without any real idea of what it does.


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## cptrayes (26 July 2012)

Does it? That is not the information I have been given from other sources. Can you point me to where you found that out?


Hundreds of barefooters have been feeding large quantities of magnesium for more than 5 years now. Surely we'd be seeing something in our horses if this were true?

Interestingly, human type II diabetics are now also treated with it.


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## cptrayes (26 July 2012)

Herpesas said:



			I will add that I was reading an article about remedial shoeing the other day and was dismayed by the number of comments from people that stated people were ignorant idiots for shoeing their horses at all - all horses suit being barefoot regardless of the individual circumstances in which the horse is kept!  No, I'm sorry, they don't and by stating such IMO these people are just as ignorant.
		
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Where was that? Not on HHO surely?


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## ester (26 July 2012)

CP afaik calcium and magnesium are absorbed at the same sites in the intestine and therefore could theoretically be competing. . hence it is not advised to take calcium and mag supplements together.. 

It isn't something I have looked into much but would suggest that 1) horse gut is huge  2) horses eat pretty constantly so, if you aren't supplementing calcium and it is just supplied in the forage there might well be enough time when the magnesium isn't around for it to be absorbed. 
3) If supplementing calcium and mag in the same meal it might cause problems? maybe? I supposed we wait and see if their bones disintegrate in a few years.


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## rhino (26 July 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Does it? That is not the information I have been given from other sources. Can you point me to where you found that out?


Hundreds of barefooters have been feeding large quantities of magnesium for more than 5 years now. Surely we'd be seeing something in our horses if this were true?

Interestingly, human type II diabetics are now also treated with it.
		
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Magnesium _deficiency_ can lead to hypocalcaemia as it is involved in regulating the hormones which control calcium metabolism. 

It is also involved in regulating calcium uptake/excretion in the kidneys, so excess can be a problem in humans suffering from kidney failure (even in early stages). I know in humans it is most often seen from 'overdosing' on antacids.


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## ester (26 July 2012)

I do think the reason it all gets a bit 'evangelical' is because you probably have owners who have been trying to get their horses sound for sometime with other methods and they have resigned themselves to retirement/pts. Being the daft sentimental things we are  we are v. happy/ecstatic to find something which returns our best mates to happy work and I can understand if people want to shout that from the rooftops! (I know I will if it applies, if not I shall chalk it up to experience knowing I tried all the logical options for said best mate). 

People don't have to listen, it is up to owners to make what they think is the best decision for their horse, that runs with everything horse wise.. some would avoid extended box rest at all costs, others are happy to put their horses through this for the end outcome. 

I think I'm pretty au fait with my horsecare but I certainly don't come from an era/situ where many horses were not shod. My formative years were spent in a RS where all were shod despite there being no roadwork apart from a couple of shetlands. Shoeing therefore = normal/necessary/essential in your head, when perhaps it isn't really. Taking them off has been a bit of a faff at times, and I am not really sure I would have done it had it not been for the lameness.


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## willhegofirst (26 July 2012)

When I had my first two ponies many many years ago, they were shod in the summer, but unshod in the winter as they didn't to the work in the winter to need shoes, only ridden at weekends.
My old lad had his shoes off due to an injury when he was in his twenties, his feet were much better after about six months, I got him boots to ride him in.
My lad I have now has never been shod, just because I have never felt the need, he has boots for the summer to hack out other than that he is fine in general, a bit footy this summer due to the amount of grass and therefore sugar. I would have had him shod if I felt he needed it though at ten now and a complete woos I think he would need sedating to get shoes on.


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## Herpesas (26 July 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Where was that? Not on HHO surely?
		
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No, thankfully not!  It was an article someone had put a link to on Facebook.


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## Fii (26 July 2012)

tallyho! said:



			Whoops! Sorry. I only get rude when others get rude about "barefoot people" i.e. calling names and also when people say things like "I would never let my horse get uncomfortable barefoot" without knowing anything about it - I take that as an insult and do get what you like to call "evangelical" about it. Would you do that to my face?

Anyway, sorry if I spoil it, but I am allowed to stand up and defend my beliefs - just like everyone is entitled to oppose it... 

I get incensed that it's ok to be rude about the barefoot taliban, yet when people who have barefoot horses, shout back it's not ok? I get retorts like "if you don't agree with tallyho, don't post  etc etc" when all I am saying is that why post if all you want to do is be mean? I will now ignore what I consider to be mean posts aimed at this race of people called "barefooters".

Also, the outrageous claims that people with barefoot horses make people with shod horses feel inferior??? Sorry everyone FEELS that way. That is not my problem but why bat barefoot people over the head with it?

It's the fact it's called "barefoot" isn't it? - thats what riles people. But that isn't my problem neither nor is it anyone elses. 

Sorry, there I go again but I feel I should explain myself. I have no problem if people want to contribute in a positive way. I just fume with the name-calling. I don't think there's any need for that. I will try not to get so emotional 

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Calm down FFS!!
  You are being paranoid and just a little bit OTT, my post was NOT aimed at you!!


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## BeesKnees (26 July 2012)

Fii said:



			Calm down FFS!!
  You are being paranoid and just a little bit OTT, my post was NOT aimed at you!!
		
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Considering the fact that TallyHo posted the post you've quoted about 14 hours ago, I imagine she is quite calm by now and the discussion has moved on.

Not sure why you would wish to stir it all up again?


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## sonicgold (26 July 2012)

Shod or unshod, shod or barefoot? Is mine barefoot because I ride her booted? Probably not, but we are both happy, and that surely is the whole point. Do I come on line to insult or be insulted? No and if I feel I have/am I apologise or walk away. Breathe folks. Most of us do this for fun.


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## rhino (26 July 2012)

BeesKnees said:



			Considering the fact that TallyHo posted the post you've quoted about 14 hours ago, I imagine she is quite calm by now and the discussion has moved on.

Not sure why you would wish to stir it all up again?
		
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Possibly Fii has been out in that place I hear is called the 'real world' and has only just come back to her computer/thread and is replying to a post which directly quoted hers. One which directed several questions at her.


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## Fii (26 July 2012)

BeesKnees said:



			Considering the fact that TallyHo posted the post you've quoted about 14 hours ago, I imagine she is quite calm by now and the discussion has moved on.

Not sure why you would wish to stir it all up again?
		
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Not sure what it has to do with you, as i was "talking" to TallyHo not you, but i havnt been on here since my   post last night, and was responding to TallyHo's response to mine, not wanting her to think i was meaning her, OK!!
 And who appointed you chairperson??


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## tallyho! (27 July 2012)

Fii said:



			Calm down FFS!!
  You are being paranoid and just a little bit OTT, my post was NOT aimed at you!!
		
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Despite what it came across as, I was actually calm when I wrote that. Sorry that it came across as hysterics Fii.

Don't worry, as usual rhino calmed me down and made me see sense 

Off to rescue ponies from horsefly swarms...


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## Pale Rider (27 July 2012)

33 pages so far, fantastic thread this.

Still not read anything to suggest that nailing metal shoes on is a good idea.


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## mystiandsunny (27 July 2012)

Pale Rider said:



			33 pages so far, fantastic thread this.

Still not read anything to suggest that nailing metal shoes on is a good idea.
		
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I won't unless I have to (shoes cost lots of ££!!).  So - why are any of them shod?

1) Had canker.  One front hoof grows at a funny angle (literally, whole thing grows kind of diagonally) so is shod every 6 weeks with special shoes, and both front hooves (worst affected) need raising out of the mud/wet/whatever to enable pony to have turnout in those conditions.  In her case we DON'T want the frog contacting the ground, and hoof boots would again create that anaerobic environment, let a little wet in and potentially create just the wrong conditions.  Plus they're not healthy to wear 24/7.  

2) Was sold to me from the field, so in NO WORK at all - out at grass with no stones or anything.  Soles were so thin you could see a pulse around the edges, pony extremely footsore even on a smooth hard surface.  Not lami.  Turned out her sire throws progeny with very chalky, soft, easily worn hooves.  Not a problem if they're shod, but it took serious £££ of gel pads and all sorts to get her comfy, then to grow enough sole to be a normal pony.  She will be shod all round throughout her life - not risking that ever again!  Even on the best low-sugar diet with proper vit/min supplementation etc, the soles are still chalky and easily flake when you're picking out her hooves.

Now if I could possibly save £180 every six weeks, and have those two without shoes, I most certainly would!!!  The other three aren't shod, but then they're happy and healthy as they are - the above two would not be, and their health/comfort comes first.

Why would anyone compromise the health of their animals just to stick to an 'ideal'?  Surely they should get what they need?


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## Clava (27 July 2012)

mystiandsunny said:



			I won't unless I have to (shoes cost lots of ££!!).  So - why are any of them shod?

1) Had canker.  One front hoof grows at a funny angle (literally, whole thing grows kind of diagonally) so is shod every 6 weeks with special shoes, and both front hooves (worst affected) need raising out of the mud/wet/whatever to enable pony to have turnout in those conditions.  In her case we DON'T want the frog contacting the ground, and hoof boots would again create that anaerobic environment, let a little wet in and potentially create just the wrong conditions.  Plus they're not healthy to wear 24/7.  

2) Was sold to me from the field, so in NO WORK at all - out at grass with no stones or anything.  Soles were so thin you could see a pulse around the edges, pony extremely footsore even on a smooth hard surface.  Not lami.  Turned out her sire throws progeny with very chalky, soft, easily worn hooves.  Not a problem if they're shod, but it took serious £££ of gel pads and all sorts to get her comfy, then to grow enough sole to be a normal pony.  She will be shod all round throughout her life - not risking that ever again!  Even on the best low-sugar diet with proper vit/min supplementation etc, the soles are still chalky and easily flake when you're picking out her hooves.

Now if I could possibly save £180 every six weeks, and have those two without shoes, I most certainly would!!!  The other three aren't shod, but then they're happy and healthy as they are - the above two would not be, and their health/comfort comes first.

Why would anyone compromise the health of their animals just to stick to an 'ideal'?  Surely they should get what they need?
		
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Genuine question - if the horse has thin soles, how does a shoe protect them? All our stoney ground projects in excess of a shoe's depth? and I always thought a flaky sole was dead material exfoliating?


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## criso (27 July 2012)

Just wanted to come back to the nutrition thing.


On the whole barefooters advocate low sugar, high fibre, read the white label and and don't be taken in by the feed companies.  I would always point people towards one of the barefoot aimed mixes which have good levels of things like copper and zinc without being dangerous if they don't know the profile of their forage and wouldn't even suggest someone else feeds bran like I do without being sure of phosphorous/calcium levels

I can see why some people are wary of ' amateur's playing scientist and adding all sorts of things to feeds but I wanted to share an recent experience which I think highlights what a minefield feeding can be.

My yard owner who is not horsey got a visit from the feed rep from their supplier.  I'm on full livery but I have been feeding bran and speedibeet and supplementing straight minerals on the basis of the hay that is cropped from the land so it's a consistent source.

Anyway feed rep told them their complete feed (chaff based, molassed and already supplemented) is exactly the same as what I am feeding.

Rep told them it had no molasses, I pointed out it  was 3rd on the ingredients lists, oh no the feed rep had told them it was a different sort of molasses which was fine for horses, to me  that is close to a downright lie.

I mentioned the added iron and maganese to the feed when hay was already very high in these, plus by adding minerals separately I can ensure a consistent level regardless of quantity of feed which varies with workload.

At my previous yard calcium was so high it was off the scale on the analysis and by feeding a mix like this, I'd be adding more.

What qualifications do these feed reps have?  People think they are getting unbiased sensible advice and what they are actually getting is a sales pitch.


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## mystiandsunny (27 July 2012)

Clava said:



			Genuine question - if the horse has thin soles, how does a shoe protect them? All our stoney ground projects in excess of a shoe's depth? and I always thought a flaky sole was dead material exfoliating?
		
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Lifts them off the surface and stops them wearing away so she can build enough depth of sole that the odd stone doesn't cause bruising, just makes a small dent in what we have.  We don't have much in the way of stones anyway, just nice grassy soil which is chalk underneath.  I suspect that if we did, she'd need pads.  Without the shoes the whole thing is in contact with the ground 24/7 and literally just wears away to nothing.  It's more chalky than flaky - with a hoof pick you could pretty much draw in it.  Is a little better with all the right supps etc but still not worth the risk.  If you compare hers to the others on the same diet/grazing, even the canker pony, very different hooves indeed.  Just rubbish genetics really - wouldn't breed from her!!!


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## lyndsayberesford (27 July 2012)

Pathetic arguments on here, why dont the unshod people (refuse to call it barefoot) stay unshod and do what they want with diets, boots etc and leave the shod people to get on with life and get their horses shod by professional trained farriers.

Wonder how many of the top olympic horses are unshod???? Id imagine they have the best vets/physios/psychologists and all the rest of the checks done that money can buy and they cannot compete if there is even a slight doubt?

My point being just stick with what you are comfortable with, take advice off the professionals (ie your own vet and farrier) and dont try something just becuase it appears to be a fashion/craze. If your horse needs shoes then get it shod, if it can live without shoes and lead a normal life then lucky you, but for god sake use a farrier to trim the feet instead of a so called Barefoot trimmer.


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## criso (27 July 2012)

lyndsayberesford said:



			for god sake use a farrier to trim the feet instead of a so called Barefoot trimmer.
		
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Sorry but having had 3 very highly qualified farriers lame my horse barefoot by overtrimming him, ( on one occasion leaving him standing in pools of blood)  I think I'll stick with my so called barefoot trimmer.

And it doesn't matter what you call it but why do people who have no interest in trying to keep a horse without shoes care so much about what term other people use.


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## Goldenstar (27 July 2012)

lyndsayberesford said:



			Pathetic arguments on here, why dont the unshod people (refuse to call it barefoot) stay unshod and do what they want with diets, boots etc and leave the shod people to get on with life and get their horses shod by professional trained farriers.

Wonder how many of the top olympic horses are unshod???? Id imagine they have the best vets/physios/psychologists and all the rest of the checks done that money can buy and they cannot compete if there is even a slight doubt?

My point being just stick with what you are comfortable with, take advice off the professionals (ie your own vet and farrier) and dont try something just becuase it appears to be a fashion/craze. If your horse needs shoes then get it shod, if it can live without shoes and lead a normal life then lucky you, but for god sake use a farrier to trim the feet instead of a so called Barefoot trimmer.
		
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People should get who they chose to trim their horse it's their horse they should feed it what they want and they should keep it as they want and they ought not listen to someone on the Internet invoking god to get then to use a farrier if they are happy with a trimmer.
As for the Olympic horses they will have turely marvellous farriers and based on the shoes I see at shows every time I go out and about that's not what a lot people have access too.


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## AngieandBen (27 July 2012)

I use a BF trimmer because tbh the three farriers I've had to trim are cr*p.  Par away at the healthy frog and sole  let the heels get underun and dumped the toe. All say "I'll leave the wall higher if you're hacking out"  Why?

They grow what they wear and wear what they grow

Not saying there are good farriers I know there are, just I haven't had one who wants to know or knows about working the horse barefoot.

I don't see any pathetic arguments, its all quite interesting.


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## Jericho (27 July 2012)

"ordering special minerals to keep them comfortable, ordering in hoof boots, agonising over their diet and lfestyle....."

I like the fact that there is a movement away from commercial foods whose ingredients are mostly unneeded and can be harmful eg starch, mollasses. I shop online for my food, for my dog why not my horse. Ordering in hoof boots - much the same as any other piece of equipment. And as for agonising of their lifestyle - we do whether our horses have shoes on or off. Track systems, less rich grass, more work/ movement is surely better and more natural for the horse, even if they have shoes? 

Agree that barefoot does not work for all, but I understand that a horses hoof will be more healthy without a metal shoe nailed into it, although maybe not up to coping with the kind of activity we humans place in it hence the need for shoes.

Tis certainly a contentious area!


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## Pale Rider (27 July 2012)

Anyone noticed the state of Totilas feet!


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## Goldenstar (27 July 2012)

Pale Rider said:



			Anyone noticed the state of Totilas feet!
		
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I agree on a the sort do look you can get on photos and telly he does not appear to have great feet .
But then his lifestyle would tend to make it difficult to have great feet.


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## skint1 (27 July 2012)

My thoughts are that as a horse owner you should do what is best for your horse,  if your horse needs shoes, put them on, if it doesn't need shoes then great, go barefoot. It does seem to be the barefoot fanatics who have the biggest problem with accepting this. Barefoot really isn't always the answer any more than shoes are.


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## cptrayes (27 July 2012)

mystiandsunny said:



			2) Was sold to me from the field, so in NO WORK at all - out at grass with no stones or anything.  Soles were so thin you could see a pulse around the edges, pony extremely footsore even on a smooth hard surface.  Not lami.  Turned out her sire throws progeny with very chalky, soft, easily worn hooves.  Not a problem if they're shod, but it took serious £££ of gel pads and all sorts to get her comfy, then to grow enough sole to be a normal pony.  She will be shod all round throughout her life - not risking that ever again!  Even on the best low-sugar diet with proper vit/min supplementation etc, the soles are still chalky and easily flake when you're picking out her hooves.
		
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Did you ever try and keep this pony on a completely grass free diet and see if it improved the soles?


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## soloequestrian (27 July 2012)

As one of the eccentric barefoot brigade, I believe that any nailed-on shoe is damaging to the horses hoof.  I absolutely accept that in some circumstances, this damage may be outweighed by benefits, for instance I'm still not totally convinced about the no-studs thing for some sports, and some people may need to shoe at certain times of year etc.  I'm fairly sure that most farriers would agree that shoeing is damaging to feet, but again they are doing a cost benefit analysis and concluding that the benefit to the owner outweighs the cost to the horse.  There is also obviously a difference between a well shod and a poorly shod foot.  
I wonder how those who shoe think about this?  Do people accept that all shoeing is damaging, or do they feel that feet that are well shod are as healthy as those with no shoes?


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## cptrayes (27 July 2012)

lyndsayberesford said:



			Pathetic arguments on here, why dont the unshod people (refuse to call it barefoot) stay unshod and do what they want with diets, boots etc and leave the shod people to get on with life and get their horses shod by professional trained farriers.[/quopte]

Errr, we do?

We just come on here to answer questions that people post. Please don't read them if you don't want to know.



lyndsayberesford said:



			I couldn't. Two of them told me that my horse, crippled by shoes, would never be able to work barefoot. He evented affiliated 9 months after the shoes came off.

You do realise that most of them are never taught to manage a hardworking barefoot horse during their apprenticeship, do you?
		
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Click to expand...


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## lyndsayberesford (27 July 2012)

I have a fantastic farrier (won awards for his shoeing) and both my horses have really good feet, they have been shod all of their lives and i dont have to worry about stony/rough terrain. Call me lucky/unlucky whatever but i would always go off his advice re the feet

Whats good for olympic eventers/dressagers/showjumpers is good for me!


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## lyndsayberesford (27 July 2012)

skint1 said:



			My thoughts are that as a horse owner you should do what is best for your horse,  if your horse needs shoes, put them on, if it doesn't need shoes then great, go barefoot. It does seem to be the barefoot fanatics who have the biggest problem with accepting this. Barefoot really isn't always the answer any more than shoes are.
		
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fully agree! if each agreed to leave the other alone then all would be good. if it aint broke dont fix it!


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## Goldenstar (27 July 2012)

skint1 said:



			My thoughts are that as a horse owner you should do what is best for your horse,  if your horse needs shoes, put them on, if it doesn't need shoes then great, go barefoot. It does seem to be the barefoot fanatics who have the biggest problem with accepting this. Barefoot really isn't always the answer any more than shoes are.
		
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You know fanatic is not a nice word to call someone in this modern world I have both shod and unshod horses working but I have to say I see more name calling from the shod lobby than the BF who yesterday where supposed to happy ignore being call hysterical being lifestyle horse owners what ever that means and following ideology .
This morning we had invoking god to get people to use farriers and now they or we if you put me in this group are fanatics .
I just don't get it.


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## Pale Rider (27 July 2012)

Yes you stupid, pathetic, unshod people, get your horse shod and stop worrying about diet and boots.
Just get on with life. 
These so called trimmers are the work of the devil.
Lol.


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## JustMe22 (27 July 2012)

Interesting thread. My horse, a TB, has always been shod. I took off his back shoes when I got him and he was fine. Then a farrier convinced me to put them back on, so I did..and they made no difference. Took them off again.

He's always had a half set out of habit, but I am making the transition to barefoot for him next Monday. I'm perfectly aware that it may not work out, but I'd like to try it. When I considered it, I realised that I'd only put on shoes because it was the "done" thing. Farriers have always said he has good, strong, easy hooves. Even our pony, who has tricky feet is barefoot and he has always been fine.

I confess to not being very knowledgeable on hooves at all, but I am very interested to see the kind of progress my horse makes as a result (be it backwards or forwards!).


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## tallyho! (27 July 2012)

lyndsayberesford said:



			Pathetic arguments on here, why dont the unshod people (refuse to call it barefoot) stay unshod and do what they want with diets, boots etc and leave the shod people to get on with life and get their horses shod by professional trained farriers.

Wonder how many of the top olympic horses are unshod???? Id imagine they have the best vets/physios/psychologists and all the rest of the checks done that money can buy and they cannot compete if there is even a slight doubt?

My point being just stick with what you are comfortable with, take advice off the professionals (ie your own vet and farrier) and dont try something just becuase it appears to be a fashion/craze. If your horse needs shoes then get it shod, if it can live without shoes and lead a normal life then lucky you, but for god sake use a farrier to trim the feet instead of a so called Barefoot trimmer.
		
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skint1 said:



			My thoughts are that as a horse owner you should do what is best for your horse,  if your horse needs shoes, put them on, if it doesn't need shoes then great, go barefoot. It does seem to be the barefoot fanatics who have the biggest problem with accepting this. Barefoot really isn't always the answer any more than shoes are.
		
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My argument has always been about stopping the insults like the ones above.


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## tallyho! (27 July 2012)

Pale Rider said:



			Yes you stupid, pathetic, unshod people, get your horse shod and stop worrying about diet and boots.
Just get on with life. 
These so called trimmers are the work of the devil.
Lol.
		
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like


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## Achinghips (27 July 2012)

Fii said:



			Calm down FFS!!
  You are being paranoid and just a little bit OTT, my post was NOT aimed at you!!
		
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How rude


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## Achinghips (27 July 2012)

Fii said:



			Not sure what it has to do with you, as i was "talking" to TallyHo not you, but i havnt been on here since my   post last night, and was responding to TallyHo's response to mine, not wanting her to think i was meaning her, OK!!
 And who appointed you chairperson??
		
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Rude


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## Goldenstar (27 July 2012)

Achinghips said:



			Rude
		
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I am just off to ride happily I know you are here to monitor the rude meter.LOL


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## MerrySherryRider (27 July 2012)

Barefoot people who frequently criticize farriers for crippling their horses or just shoeing to make more money, never seem to acknowledge the existence of bad trimmers.

 A vet quite recently remarked about the number of cases being referred that were damaged by BT's. I don't know if they were qualified and insured, I didn't ask as I was busy holding a rather opinionated horse at the time.
 Do stories of bad trimmers remain a well kept secret in Barefoot circles ?


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## Achinghips (27 July 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			I am just off to ride happily I know you are here to monitor the rude meter.LOL
		
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Well, either of us, at least, have a nice ride


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## MerrySherryRider (27 July 2012)

Pale Rider said:



			The difference being Cortez, is that you would be wearing boots on your own feet, not steel rings nailed into your toe.
Your analogy, is erroneous and stupid.
		
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Very rude.


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## pines of rome (27 July 2012)

To call barefooters fanatics is just ignorant, I have found they are just ordinary folk trying to do what,s best for their horse!
 I have chosen this route as shoeing my horse was crippling him, as for farriers, they are good at shoeing but when it comes to trimming I prefer to use a good trimmer who trims sympathetically to the horse,s needs and supports you with  every aspect of a barefoot rehab, I have found this invaluable!
 I do also feel that Tallyho has taken  a very unfair bashing on this thread, I have had friendly not at all pushy advice from her!


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## Achinghips (27 July 2012)

horserider said:



			Very rude.
		
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Yay, there's three of us now


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## baran (27 July 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Did you ever try and keep this pony on a completely grass free diet and see if it improved the soles?
		
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What do you feed instead? What is your daily routine on a grass free diet? How do you manage turnout?


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## TwoStroke (27 July 2012)

horserider said:



			Barefoot people who frequently criticize farriers for crippling their horses or just shoeing to make more money, never seem to acknowledge the existence of bad trimmers.

 A vet quite recently remarked about the number of cases being referred that were damaged by BT's. I don't know if they were qualified and insured, I didn't ask as I was busy holding a rather opinionated horse at the time.
 Do stories of bad trimmers remain a well kept secret in Barefoot circles ?
		
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Now you're really scraping the bottom of the barrel! The phrase 'of course there are good trimmers and bad trimmers, just like good farriers and bad farriers' is repeated so often on here that it's become cliché.

Now, I say you are apes and maggots, the lot of you.

Someone rudemetre me .


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## Goldenstar (27 July 2012)

horserider said:



			Barefoot people who frequently criticize farriers for crippling their horses or just shoeing to make more money, never seem to acknowledge the existence of bad trimmers.

 A vet quite recently remarked about the number of cases being referred that were damaged by BT's. I don't know if they were qualified and insured, I didn't ask as I was busy holding a rather opinionated horse at the time.
 Do stories of bad trimmers remain a well kept secret in Barefoot circles ?
		
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No it's no secret and it's often mentained in threads IMO no horse should be left sorer ( not sure that's a word)  by a trim from a farrier or a trimmer except in exceptional cases when they should be under veterinary supervision or for that matter from a shoeing I am horrified that people I know expect their horses TB's in this case to be lame after shoeing .
There are very bad farriers very bad trimmers very bad doctors very bad lawyers etc etc.
You need to educate yourself as a horse owner all the time throughout your life never trust anyone professional or otherwise with your horse question research all the time .
Now my horses are ready and I am off me riding one shod , groom riding one BF leading one boots in front  what I am doing is following all the trends at once can't go wrong there. !


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## soloequestrian (27 July 2012)

horserider said:



			Barefoot people who frequently criticize farriers for crippling their horses or just shoeing to make more money, never seem to acknowledge the existence of bad trimmers.

 A vet quite recently remarked about the number of cases being referred that were damaged by BT's. I don't know if they were qualified and insured, I didn't ask as I was busy holding a rather opinionated horse at the time.
 Do stories of bad trimmers remain a well kept secret in Barefoot circles ?
		
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No, I think you will find lots of posts that refer to 'good and bad everywhere' - farriers, trimmers, vets, nutritionists etc. etc.  When I chose my trimmer, I went out with her for a day to watch her work before I let her near my horses.  I'm now lucky in that I can cope wtih them myself because they need so little help with their feet.

PS Is anyone going to answer my earlier question about how people who shoe regard the amount of damage shoes do to feet?


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## tallyho! (27 July 2012)

horserider said:



			Barefoot people who frequently criticize farriers for crippling their horses or just shoeing to make more money, never seem to acknowledge the existence of bad trimmers.

 A vet quite recently remarked about the number of cases being referred that were damaged by BT's. I don't know if they were qualified and insured, I didn't ask as I was busy holding a rather opinionated horse at the time.
 Do stories of bad trimmers remain a well kept secret in Barefoot circles ?
		
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See, that is just completely made up. 

All the barefooters I know of on HHO recommend qualified trimmers (which do exist) and are fully aware of bad trimmers. Thats why I try and help. 

We are all too aware of bad jobs done by self-proclaimed trimmers and actively seek to promote barefoot trimming that is regulated.

My friend has a yard of barefoot horses, all trimmed by a great farrier who I am still on good terms with because I think he is good and he has done some training with Nic and UKNHCP - he thinks qualified trimmers do a good job and is also helping to try and merge things but knows it takes time as everyone has a day job.


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## Goldenstar (27 July 2012)

TwoStroke said:



			Now you're really scraping the bottom of the barrel! The phrase 'of course there are good trimmers and bad trimmers, just like good farriers and bad farriers' is repeated so often on here that it's become cliché.

Now, I say you are apes and maggots, the lot of you.

Someone rudemetre me .
		
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That was rude and gross too. But I like apes.


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## quirky (27 July 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			Now my horses are ready and I am off me riding one shod , groom riding one BF leading one boots in front  what I am doing is following all the trends at once can't go wrong there. !
		
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That could be called sitting on the fence


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## Pale Rider (27 July 2012)

Now you're really scraping the bottom of the barrel! The phrase 'of course there are good trimmers and bad trimmers, just like good farriers and bad farriers' is repeated so often on here that it's become cliché.

Now, I say you are apes and maggots, the lot of you.

Someone rudemetre me .

Astute but very rude, lol.


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## Goldenstar (27 July 2012)

Pale Rider said:



			Now you're really scraping the bottom of the barrel! The phrase 'of course there are good trimmers and bad trimmers, just like good farriers and bad farriers' is repeated so often on here that it's become cliché.

Now, I say you are apes and maggots, the lot of you.

Someone rudemetre me .

Astute but very rude, lol.
		
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Your metered too.


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## Pale Rider (27 July 2012)

Now my horses are ready and I am off me riding one shod , groom riding one BF leading one boots in front what I am doing is following all the trends at once can't go wrong there. !

Hold on Goldenstar, 'now my horses are ready'
'Groom'

What's all that about, lol.


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## TwoStroke (27 July 2012)

What do all you shoeing and unshod-not-barefoot folks say to owners trimming their own horses, then?


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## MerrySherryRider (27 July 2012)

tallyho! said:



			See, that is just completely made up.
		
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What is ? 
I've heard many times people on here specifically stating how a farrier lamed their horse but never once have I heard of an example of a trimmer laming a horse and yet it happens. I've heard local farriers remarking on some shoddy trimmers but thought that was probably their bias, but hearing my vet mention this out of the blue and then since hearing more incidences, it seemed that the barefoot people with their involvement in barefootery would be better informed than me.

So, none of you know of any bad trimmers then ?


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## MerrySherryRider (27 July 2012)

TwoStroke said:



			What do all you shoeing and unshod-not-barefoot folks say to owners trimming their own horses, then? 

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Stupid. 

My horses trim their own most of the time.


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## tallyho! (27 July 2012)

pines of rome said:



			To call barefooters fanatics is just ignorant, I have found they are just ordinary folk trying to do what,s best for their horse!
 I have chosen this route as shoeing my horse was crippling him, as for farriers, they are good at shoeing but when it comes to trimming I prefer to use a good trimmer who trims sympathetically to the horse,s needs and supports you with  every aspect of a barefoot rehab, I have found this invaluable!
 I do also feel that Tallyho has taken  a very unfair bashing on this thread, I have had friendly not at all pushy advice from her!
		
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Thanks POR and Goldenstar for vote of confidence 

Actually, all I wanted was to stop the hurtful comments about particular individuals. I did get a tad emotional though, but there you are, I'm a 'wear your heart on your sleeve' kind of gal.

I did find it funny in the end to be labelled as a fanatic given I ride both shod and barefoot horses 

I'm just a hoof geek really and staring at foot cadavers is a favourite pastime. As long as the horse has great hooves, I'm a happy bunny.


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## Pale Rider (27 July 2012)

TwoStroke

What do all you shoeing and unshod-not-barefoot folks say to owners trimming their own horses, then?

Heretic.


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## TwoStroke (27 July 2012)

horserider said:



			Stupid.
		
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 Rude!




			My horses trim their own most of the time. 

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Mine have too much flare. They fumble the rasp .


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## tallyho! (27 July 2012)

horserider said:



			What is ? 
I've heard many times people on here specifically stating how a farrier lamed their horse but never once have I heard of an example of a trimmer laming a horse and yet it happens. I've heard local farriers remarking on some shoddy trimmers but thought that was probably their bias, but hearing my vet mention this out of the blue and then since hearing more incidences, it seemed that the barefoot people with their involvement in barefootery would be better informed than me.

So, none of you know of any bad trimmers then ?
		
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Specific statements are just that. Based on personal experience no doubt, but not sure how you can control that?

Perhaps no-one on HHO has mentioned bad trimmers is because they have followed advice about where to find excellent ones and excellent farriers too.

What you hear in your village/town/county I cannot control I'm afraid.

There is absolutely no bias. You dream it up all your own horserider.


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## criso (27 July 2012)

horserider said:



			Barefoot people who frequently criticize farriers for crippling their horses or just shoeing to make more money, never seem to acknowledge the existence of bad trimmers.

 A vet quite recently remarked about the number of cases being referred that were damaged by BT's. I don't know if they were qualified and insured, I didn't ask as I was busy holding a rather opinionated horse at the time.
 Do stories of bad trimmers remain a well kept secret in Barefoot circles ?
		
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I can only go by my own experience which is I have used 2 farriers to trim my horse since the shoes came off and an additional 3 previously when he was shod.  All came highly recommended by other people including my vet and were in some cases specialised remedial farriers.  

He has never been sore after a trim from a barefoot trimmer.

He had ongoing foot problems when shod hence why he was taken barefoot and was frequently sore with new shoes.  Vets and farriers never commented on this and seemed to think it was normal for a sensitive horse to have this reaction.  Lots of shaking heads, sucking teeth and mutterings of "tb feet".  The implication was the problem was my horse's feet.


I think if he had been sore after a trim from a barefoot trimmer then the same vets and farriers would have been very quick to say the problem was with the trim.

There are sensitive types  out there that are very easy to tip over the edge with a bad trim and my experience has been that farriers are as likely to do this  but how the professionals interpret it this when it happens varies.

People should use whoever they are happiest with but I won't accept that a farrier is automatically better and think you should do your own research to find the person with the best track record in the area.


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## TwoStroke (27 July 2012)

Pale Rider said:



			Heretic.
		
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Rude meter's just combusted!


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## tallyho! (27 July 2012)

Lol @ rudemeter


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## Achinghips (27 July 2012)




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## cptrayes (27 July 2012)

horserider said:



			Barefoot people who frequently criticize farriers for crippling their horses or just shoeing to make more money, never seem to acknowledge the existence of bad trimmers.
		
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Nonsense. We say all the time that there are good trimmers and bad trimmers and good farriers and bad farriers.


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## soloequestrian (27 July 2012)

I'll keep asking this until someone answers:

WHAT DO ALL THE PEOPLE WHO SHOE THINK ABOUT DAMAGE TO FEET BY SHOES?

See earlier post for a bit more explanation.


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## cptrayes (27 July 2012)

horserider said:



			What is ? 
I've heard many times people on here specifically stating how a farrier lamed their horse but never once have I heard of an example of a trimmer laming a horse and yet it happens. I've heard local farriers remarking on some shoddy trimmers but thought that was probably their bias, but hearing my vet mention this out of the blue and then since hearing more incidences, it seemed that the barefoot people with their involvement in barefootery would be better informed than me.

So, none of you know of any bad trimmers then ?
		
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Do some searching horserider. There are plenty of threads where people say that they have seen barefoot trimmers lame horses. Get your facts straight before being so critical, please.


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## skint1 (27 July 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			You know fanatic is not a nice word to call someone in this modern world I have both shod and unshod horses working but I have to say I see more name calling from the shod lobby than the BF who yesterday where supposed to happy ignore being call hysterical being lifestyle horse owners what ever that means and following ideology .
This morning we had invoking god to get people to use farriers and now they or we if you put me in this group are fanatics .
I just don't get it.
		
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Ok, I am certainly not invoking God to get people to use farriers,  I frankly couldn't give a toss about what people do with their horses feet providing the horse is happy and healthy. It's the closed mindedness ON BOTH SIDES that really gets to me. 

Also, I accept the use of the word fanatic was perhaps unfair, perhaps I should have said "barefoot enthusiast"  and in MY own experience, which I am entitled to write about, I have met more closed minded barefoot enthusiasts than I have shod enthusiasts.

and again I am not against barefoot, I have a tb mare who is barefoot and who is on loan to an extremely knowledgeable barefoot person who is working very hard to get her feet right


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## AngieandBen (27 July 2012)

I've only ever used one BT Trimmer, I've used her for two years now and I'm very happy with her work, and more imortantly so are the ponies   I personally don't know any bad trimmers. 

One of the farriers I used to use years ago was very good, never had a problem with him while the ponies were shod, their feet always looked good and they moved well, heel first. but he wasn't good at the trimming lark, within a couple of months they had underun heals and were landing toe first as well as little frog left!  

Ben was petrified of farriers and had to be sedated to be shod( I only had him shod twice I found it quite upsetting that he would quiver in the corner of the stable )

With my trimmer he nods off


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## thatsmygirl (27 July 2012)

Wow can't believe this is still going.
My vet suggested a trimmer to me after seeing the horses being turned around under his care. 
My lad will be PTS if barefoot don't work for him due to un going lameness in shoes. Strides out lovely without. X rays etc are all done. My farrier is great for shoeing but tried going bare foot under his care which was never going to work ( trims frogs, soles) each time he came out and said he needs shoes as he won't cope barefoot. So I seeked advise from a trimmer who talked about diet, and trims him in a totally different manner and is coping great so far. My farrier which I still use for my other horses won't even start to understand barefoot and tbh I think he's missing a trick. He also states that I'm being conned as I pay £40 a trim and he's £22 BUT the trim DONT make him sore and he was with me on my 1st visit for hour and half talking though loads of stuff so actually I think £40 is pretty good instead off 10 mins and a sore horse. 
IF I hadn't contacted a trimmer my lad would be dead by now so thanks to him he's got a 2nd chance. 
If he continues going the way he is I may just consider taking off all shoes end off. Iv already got 3 bare who have never been shod and self trim so only a set let to go. 
Iv found barefoot ISNT cheaper and makes you more aware of what's going on with your horses feet. The feed mine are on boosts the price up but tbh it's a healthy diet so even if they were re shod I would continue the diet.
All the people who completely dish bare foot are lacking knowledge ( sorry my spelling but I'm on a I phone with the sun blinding me) and have a closed mind. A year ago I was completely anti barefoot and barefoot trimmers WELL!! Don't get me started BUT with a years worth off learning and actually seeing results for myself my mind has changed. And the trimmer is def better than my farrier who has iv said has a very closed mind. Scared off the way things are changing maybe? Keeping making horses sore by cutting off the frogs etc to thing they need shoes? Makes me wonder.


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## tallyho! (27 July 2012)

skint1 said:



			Ok, I am certainly not invoking God to get people to use farriers,  I frankly couldn't give a toss about what people do with their horses feet providing the horse is happy and healthy. It's the closed mindedness ON BOTH SIDES that really gets to me. 

Also, I accept the use of the word fanatic was perhaps unfair, perhaps I should have said "barefoot enthusiast"  and in MY own experience, which I am entitled to write about, I have met more closed minded barefoot enthusiasts than I have shod enthusiasts.
		
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That's a shame. Thankfully on HHO for the most part, you will find open mindedness.

Just would like to point out without disturbing the rude meter, that you were being closed minded yourself by writing insulting comments like you did.


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## SplashofSoy (27 July 2012)

No offence to anyone but this thread is hilarious.  Cant believe people are actually insulting others about if thier horses have shoes on or not.  

On our yard there are about 45 horses (about 35 are riding school horses/hunt hirelings and comp horses owned by the YO), various conconctions of shoes, no shoes, shod in front, special shoes, whatever is required.  Basic starting point no shoes, then fronts, then shod alround depending on foot quality, work type etc.  All sorted by same farrier. If they are competition horses most are shod as they need studs etc for eventing and SJ and also the hunt horses who are unshod during their months turned away in the summer and shod for the season.  

Personally my horse is shod, he needs studs for jumping so requires shoes.  He happens to have poor feet (breeding issue) which i have managed to improve over the years but he would never manage without, he has only ever lost a shoe once and he pulled it off whilst SJ, you would think his leg was broken the fuss we had and the hopping lame.  Shoe back on, perfectly fine.  

It seems if a horse cant manage without shoes barefooters state you should do everything possible to help it manage and this includes for example not allowing access to grass.  I fully understand the need to restrict grazing for lamanitics etc and this is life threatening but just to keep shoes off, why? Our horses have all day all weather turnout with hay in winter and are stabled at night and come March are dying to get out on the grass. I just couldnt to do that to my horse all year round just to keep shoes off unless that was the only way to keep him sound full stop with or without shoes. 

Surely the overall well being of the horse is the most important and from my experience if the horse is sound and healthy whether it has shoes on or not is really not that important.


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## tallyho! (27 July 2012)

SplashofSoy said:



			No offence to anyone but this thread is hilarious.  Cant believe people are actually insulting others about if thier horses have shoes on or not.  


It seems if a horse cant manage without shoes barefooters state you should do everything possible to help it manage and this includes for example not allowing access to grass.  


Surely the overall well being of the horse is the most important and from my experience if the horse is sound and healthy whether it has shoes on or not is really not that important.
		
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LOL!!! You have in one post managed to criticise, insult and contradict yourself. That's really good going 

I thought it was only me that was capable of that... hats off


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## skint1 (27 July 2012)

tallyho! said:



			That's a shame. Thankfully on HHO for the most part, you will find open mindedness.

Just would like to point out without disturbing the rude meter, that you were being closed minded yourself by writing insulting comments like you did.
		
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How was I being closed minded?


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## MerrySherryRider (27 July 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Do some searching horserider. There are plenty of threads where people say that they have seen barefoot trimmers lame horses. Get your facts straight before being so critical, please.
		
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What facts have I not got straight ? Do correct me. Haven't found one on here, have you ? That's why I'm asking , it could well be that in all the years I've been on here, I've missed them and that is quite likely judging by the speed that threads shoot down the page. 


Google has a list of incidences, but can't see any on this forum.


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## thatsmygirl (27 July 2012)

Splashofsoy I have to admit if I had to cut down grazing etc to control barefoot I would prob think twice. They are on the best diet suitable but that's it I'm not cutting down on their playtime to control it. But than if u look at it a different way horses aren't really ment to eat grass. And tbh if my shod horse was hoping after losing a shoe I would be wondering why! The under lieing problem isn't solved by putting the shoe back on.


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## Achinghips (27 July 2012)

Any thoughts on this video : Warning: a bit graphic and bloody

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayEJacuoJ7I&feature=related


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## tallyho! (27 July 2012)

skint1 said:



			It does seem to be the barefoot fanatics who have the biggest problem with accepting this.
		
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skint1 said:



			How was I being closed minded?
		
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See post above 

The original post had some great remarks, but you spoilt it with that sentence that implies all barefooters have a problem. 

I am a barefoot fan. I have shod and unshod horses which I ride. So do other barefoot fans. 

You will find that barefooters on HHO are people with an avid interest in health, particularly foot health. It doesn't matter if it has a shoe nailed to it or not. 

So basically, we think the same. I don't know why making a dig like that is in any way useful to anyone? It is in fact very closed minded as you have made a sweeping generalisation that insults people who care very much about horses welfare.


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## cptrayes (27 July 2012)

horserider said:



			What facts have I not got straight ? Do correct me. Haven't found one on here, have you ? That's why I'm asking , it could well be that in all the years I've been on here, I've missed them and that is quite likely judging by the speed that threads shoot down the page. 


Google has a list of incidences, but can't see any on this forum.
		
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There are tons. We even had someone whose sister is a paid trimmer whose own horse has been long term lame. You are only seeing the stuff you want to see.


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## Clava (27 July 2012)

SplashofSoy said:



			Surely the overall well being of the horse is the most important and from my experience if the horse is sound and healthy whether it has shoes on or not is really not that important.
		
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But if a horse is struggling without shoes due to grass, then this is a wonderful early warning to a potenial laminitis attack, with shoes you don't get that early warning and only find there is a problem when it is too late. I personally would rather deal with the issue than cover it up, restricting grass and knowing you have a healthy horse is better IMO than allowing unlimited grass and potential health risks.


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## cptrayes (27 July 2012)

SplashofSoy said:



			It seems if a horse cant manage without shoes barefooters state you should do everything possible to help it manage and this includes for example not allowing access to grass. .
		
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But we only state that to people who are asking us how to keep their horses shoeless. Why we constantly then get accused of "ramming it down people's throats" - not by you - is what gets our goats 

By the way there are many ways to manage a horse's access to grass without spoiling all their  playtime, and no-one does it solely to be able to keep the shoes off. We would do it because we believe that it is in the best interests of the overall health of the horse.


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## tallyho! (27 July 2012)

Achinghips said:



			Any thoughts on this video : Warning: a bit graphic and bloody

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayEJacuoJ7I&feature=related

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Having a laminitic, that made me cry the first time I saw it. That's what made me look deeper into the hoof.


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## tallyho! (27 July 2012)

cptrayes said:



			But we only state that to people who are asking us how to keep their horses shoeless. Why we constantly then get accused of "ramming it down people's throats" - not by you - is what gets our goats 

By the way there are many ways to manage a horse's access to grass without spoiling all their  playtime, and no-one does it solely to be able to keep the shoes off. We would do it because we believe that it is in the best interests of the overall health of the horse.
		
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Exactly. My laminitic was out 24/7 enjoying playtime with his buddies all the time he was barefoot. No special diet, just a minor adjustment in salt lick choice. He wore a muzzle during the day. He hacked out on the Cotswolds just fine everyday with neither shoes nor boots to help.

It IS possible and that is just ONE example. It does not speak for everyone else who has a laminitic horse or for everyone who has bf horses 

While he was shod, he was only allowed out for 4 hours according to vet and farrier. Again, personal experience. I do not speak for everybody! However I'm sure someone will be along to say I am or my statement is what ALL barefooters say Or perhaps put words in my mouth


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## Achinghips (27 July 2012)

It's graphic in explaining it isn't it?  One can only imagine the pain  a laminitic horse endures, seeing that.  

There are another few videos on Youtube discussing  blood circulation, shock and balance on shod vs barefoot (in favour of barefoot) which I found very interesting, though can't find them now ....


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## Herpesas (27 July 2012)

soloequestrian said:



			As one of the eccentric barefoot brigade, I believe that any nailed-on shoe is damaging to the horses hoof.  I absolutely accept that in some circumstances, this damage may be outweighed by benefits, for instance I'm still not totally convinced about the no-studs thing for some sports, and some people may need to shoe at certain times of year etc.  I'm fairly sure that most farriers would agree that shoeing is damaging to feet, but again they are doing a cost benefit analysis and concluding that the benefit to the owner outweighs the cost to the horse.  There is also obviously a difference between a well shod and a poorly shod foot.  
I wonder how those who shoe think about this?  Do people accept that all shoeing is damaging, or do they feel that feet that are well shod are as healthy as those with no shoes?
		
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I'll be brave and answer your question 

Hooves weren't designed to have things hammered through them and it is inevitable that this will have an effect on the natural strength that the hoof has.  In an ideal world where all horses had great, strong feet that could cope with the rigours of modern riding, I would expect all to be unshod/barefoot.  Unfortunately, we don't have an ideal world, all horses don't have great feet (or even good feet) that can cope with what we expect of them.

In my case, my well shod horse has healthier feet than he would have if he was barefoot.  Does he have healthier feet than a barefoot horse with good, strong feet?  No.

To go successfully barefoot, my horse would have to be restricted to turnout only in dry ground conditions and he would be miserable.  So would I rather have a healthy, happy horse with slightly compromised feet?  Ab-so-lutely!


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## Clava (27 July 2012)

Herpesas said:



			To go successfully barefoot, my horse would have to be restricted to turnout only in dry ground conditions and he would be miserable.  So would I rather have a healthy, happy horse with slightly compromised feet?  Ab-so-lutely!
		
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Why? what happens if not dry, or wet with shoes?


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## mystiandsunny (27 July 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Did you ever try and keep this pony on a completely grass free diet and see if it improved the soles?
		
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First thing we did was stable her and get vet out to check for lami etc etc but in the long term, she was a youngster, who needed to do what babies do - go out and play with her friends.  This is also genetic, having researched it, not specifically related to particular grazing etc.  She's on grazing now that my very special metabolically compromised horse can cope on - always long and woody, always muzzled, and soles the same.  I could shut her in a stable 24/7, feed her soaked hay and try to keep her barefoot - for what benefit to her?  She's perfectly happy being shod, her hooves tolerate the shoes well, and she's comfortable and able to enjoy a good life, out 24/7 with her friends.

I'm a human with health issues - I get the appropriate medication and support.  It's like saying to me - try these natural remedies for you problems, they might work or they might not, but you can't have modern medication 'cause it's 'wrong' and might cause side effects.  Really?  I quite like being active and able to live a fulfilling life thank you!


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## Achinghips (27 July 2012)

I consider myself phenomenally lucky to have a big beautiful barefoot lad who has good strong feet.  I did worry, though as we used do a bit of roadwork - I worried he would wear all his hoof away and they were also prone to more chipping when he went out on the road so I altered my regime - problem sorted.  Boots are a nono as none in the UK fit him and any shoes he had will cost over a hundred pound, given his size.

To keep him barefoot requires some, but not a lot of preventative work, eg magnesium supplement,  (but that's mainly cause he's an itchy boy), vits and mins, being a little careful if I think he is showing signs of being foot sore and 6 weeks "mini manicures" from the farrier which cost only £20.  This works well for us.  On the other hand, I could not imagine going without shoes for my Tb, her feet are so soft and brittle and she is just so delicate, and prone to cracks that shoes seem to protect her.


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## Goldenstar (27 July 2012)

Pale Rider said:



			Now my horses are ready and I am off me riding one shod , groom riding one BF leading one boots in front what I am doing is following all the trends at once can't go wrong there. !

Hold on Goldenstar, 'now my horses are ready'
'Groom'

What's all that about, lol.
		
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Ok I admitt it I am an overpriledged hysterical lifestyle rider.


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## abitodd (27 July 2012)

Pale Rider said:



			Anyone noticed the state of Totilas feet!
		
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Skip to 2mins 30 secs on this video. I may be wrong,but it looks like the weight of the shoe is affecting the flight of the foot. I guess clever shoeing can 'improve' the action and give top horses the edge for as long as their feet hold out!
I would love to see slow mo footage the same horse performing without the shoes.
http://www.topdressage.tv/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=190&t=4694&p=12478#p12478


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## tallyho! (27 July 2012)

Herpesas said:



			I'll be brave and answer your question 

Hooves weren't designed to have things hammered through them and it is inevitable that this will have an effect on the natural strength that the hoof has.  In an ideal world where all horses had great, strong feet that could cope with the rigours of modern riding, I would expect all to be unshod/barefoot.  Unfortunately, we don't have an ideal world, all horses don't have great feet (or even good feet) that can cope with what we expect of them.

In my case, my well shod horse has healthier feet than he would have if he was barefoot.  Does he have healthier feet than a barefoot horse with good, strong feet?  No.

To go successfully barefoot, my horse would have to be restricted to turnout only in dry ground conditions and he would be miserable.  So would I rather have a healthy, happy horse with slightly compromised feet?  Ab-so-lutely!
		
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I think that's great. There are plenty of well shod horses out there. Happy as Larry. 

I think horses have not changed since the day they were tamed and feet designed to roam endlessly on varied terrain and gut designed to eat little and often haven't either which is why I personally think they can cope with modern riding rigours. 

The fact is, there are so many varied breeds and minute adaptations between breeds and factor in management variations etc. that not one solution fits all. 

What we do need is well shod and well trimmed healthy horses with the best diet that can be afforded them and I am not talking endless supplements and expensive feeds, I am talking simple basic nutritious stuff. All this can help support sound horses. As long as we have a divided foot care profession that do not do joined up thinking, we will continue to get horses with issues that tend to manifest in the foot. The more owners do to educate themselves on the whys and wherefore's of laminitis, navicular syndrome and other foot pathologies, the less we will see. 

Still, unless you experience it yourself, one is unlikely to go in deeper than necessary.

I am coming to the conclusion that actually, it does matter if you keep horses shod or unshod because ultimately, you are responsible for how they cope with your decision. We are all in the same boat. The decision you make matters greatly, not to forumites, but to the horse.

Most people are affording each other experience and helpful guidance whether shod or unshod and in a world where change happens whether you like it or not, and that is so valuable. 

If you look past the bickering, I think everyone will see that they all have one thing in common.


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## HashRouge (27 July 2012)

Just to add a slightly different angle to the debate - I (and I'm sure I'm far from the only one) have a barefoot/ shoeless/ whatever horse who is currently out 24/7 with no problems. We had a slight problem in May when the horses moved into a recently fertilized field, but all I had to do was pop her in the diet paddock for a week until the grass had been eaten down a bit. Poor lass is out of work atm, but that is for something else entirely.


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## sonicgold (27 July 2012)

HashRouge said:



			Just to add a slightly different angle to the debate - I (and I'm sure I'm far from the only one) have a barefoot/ shoeless/ whatever horse who is currently out 24/7 with no problems. We had a slight problem in May when the horses moved into a recently fertilized field, but all I had to do was pop her in the diet paddock for a week until the grass had been eaten down a bit. Poor lass is out of work atm, but that is for something else entirely.
		
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Which harks back to my posts on grass management. You never see Dartmoor ponies with cracked feet. They run around on old grass across all terrain and have feet like iron. Having said that if a horse is happiest shod, then shoe it. Also if management to keep it happy barefoot would be impractical shoe. I am however coming round to the opinion that BF should be the default option with shoes having to be justified rather than the other way round. No I am not didactic either way. One shod and one unshod wearing boots prn.


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## Herpesas (27 July 2012)

Clava said:



			Why? what happens if not dry, or wet with shoes?
		
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Soft does not even get close to describing his feet in wet conditions - as I said in my previous post, they're like Brie!  Without shoes, he shreds his feet within hours, they end up bare and he ends up very sore.

Last month he lost a front shoe whilst I was riding (tripped and, as he recovered, he over reached and pulled it clean off), I didn't have a hoofboot that fit him so I went for a 2 hour road trip round the local saddlers trying to find one.  Eventually I managed to borrow one but by the time I got back he had already trashed the foot.  This happens in the field and in his stable (he weaves).

He is also prone to abcesses from grit getting pushed up into the sole and hoof wall.

As I said in my previous post, he is already on a diet low in sugar and starch and high in fibre with vitamins, minerals and additional magnesium.  He is not a very good doer, so I don't want to reduce his grass intake.  He is fed as much hay as he will eat.

My farrier is also a barefoot trimmer and would not recommend shoes if he did not think they were necessary.  He says, with time off (which isn't an option for Hoss cos of his shoulder injury), his back feet could probably cope barefoot but he has strongly advised not to remove his fronts.  He did suggest another horse at the yard (not mine) may benefit from going barefoot as he has had small changes in his foot and is currently intermittently lame in wedges and pads.


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## tallyho! (27 July 2012)

That is a really interesting case. Poor thing. I wonder what makes his horn so weak. You do hear of cases sometimes that make you wonder and be grateful for shoes.


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## Achinghips (27 July 2012)

tallyho! said:



			That is a really interesting case. Poor thing. I wonder what makes his horn so weak. You do hear of cases sometimes that make you wonder and be grateful for shoes.
		
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Like


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## Herpesas (27 July 2012)

He is definitely one of them!   My poor farrier dispairs of him some days!  When it's dry he's got quite strong feet but he is very hard on them and they do seem to be particularly susceptible to the wet!  This year with all the rain it's been particularly difficult to manage - I've even resorted to hoof oil which I wouldn't normally put anywhere near him.  Other, drier years I haven't had any problems with him (doesn't pull shoes, isn't 'footy' at all) but I still wouldn't risk taking his front shoes off.


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## Clava (27 July 2012)

Herpesas said:



			Soft does not even get close to describing his feet in wet conditions - as I said in my previous post, they're like Brie!  Without shoes, he shreds his feet within hours, they end up bare and he ends up very sore.

Last month he lost a front shoe whilst I was riding (tripped and, as he recovered, he over reached and pulled it clean off), I didn't have a hoofboot that fit him so I went for a 2 hour road trip round the local saddlers trying to find one.  Eventually I managed to borrow one but by the time I got back he had already trashed the foot.  This happens in the field and in his stable (he weaves).

He is also prone to abcesses from grit getting pushed up into the sole and hoof wall.

As I said in my previous post, he is already on a diet low in sugar and starch and high in fibre with vitamins, minerals and additional magnesium.  He is not a very good doer, so I don't want to reduce his grass intake.  He is fed as much hay as he will eat.

My farrier is also a barefoot trimmer and would not recommend shoes if he did not think they were necessary.  He says, with time off (which isn't an option for Hoss cos of his shoulder injury), his back feet could probably cope barefoot but he has strongly advised not to remove his fronts.  He did suggest another horse at the yard (not mine) may benefit from going barefoot as he has had small changes in his foot and is currently intermittently lame in wedges and pads.
		
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that's interesting, what I'm trying to understand is why a shoe or how a shoe prevents the sole turning to brie (I'm not trying to be difficult, I really just want to understand the effects of shoes), just raising the sole off the ground doesn't sound like it would be enough as the sole would still be in the mud.  I do think that many shod horses would trash a bare hoof if they hacked 2 hrs to a saddlers to get a boot without gradually building up to that.


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## BeesKnees (27 July 2012)

Herpesas said:



			In an ideal world where all horses had great, strong feet that could cope with the rigours of modern riding, I would expect all to be unshod/barefoot.  Unfortunately, we don't have an ideal world, all horses don't have great feet (or even good feet) that can cope with what we expect of them.
		
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But isn't part of the problem that 'modern riding' isn't rigorous enough! People frequently cite horses having to cope with all the work we expect them to do as a reason to shoe, but the reality is the average modern horse does minimal work compared to a wild existence or even to the time when horses were agricultural vehicles in effect! 

In reality isn't the issue too much food and not enough rigorous work?


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## tallyho! (27 July 2012)

BeesKnees said:



			But isn't part of the problem that 'modern riding' isn't rigorous enough! People frequently cite horses having to cope with all the work we expect them to do as a reason to shoe, but the reality is the average modern horse does minimal work compared to a wild existence or even to the time when horses were agricultural vehicles in effect! 

In reality isn't the issue too much food and not enough rigorous work?
		
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There's all sorts of issues. That could be one of them. There's two barefooted retired laydeez at my yard who have excellent feet. Apart from wandering around 10acres a day, they do nothing but chill out. Both can walk on the farms long tracks without batting an eyelid. They are on a very special diet of grass, nettles, dandelion, twigs, thistle and spring water 

However, I havent saddled either of them up and gone for an hours hack so I don't know if the feet will still stand up to Tarmac. No reason not to obviously but after years of adapting to their ground, chances are they may not. Not daily anyway.

Anyway, my point is, I don't know if it is to do with not enough work or if it is to do with adaptation.


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## AngieandBen (27 July 2012)

BeesKnees said:



			But isn't part of the problem that 'modern riding' isn't rigorous enough! People frequently cite horses having to cope with all the work we expect them to do as a reason to shoe, but the reality is the average modern horse does minimal work compared to a wild existence or even to the time when horses were agricultural vehicles in effect! 

In reality isn't the issue too much food and not enough rigorous work?
		
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Same as humans really


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## tallyho! (27 July 2012)

AngieandBen said:



			Same as humans really 

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Lol so true


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## Herpesas (27 July 2012)

Clava said:



			that's interesting, what I'm trying to understand is why a shoe or how a shoe prevents the sole turning to brie (I'm not trying to be difficult, I really just want to understand the effects of shoes), just raising the sole off the ground doesn't sound like it would be enough as the sole would still be in the mud.  I do think that many shod horses would trash a bare hoof if they hacked 2 hrs to a saddlers to get a boot without gradually building up to that.
		
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It doesn't, his feet are still soft but the shoe is protecting him from wearing his feet down to the point wear he is in pain and discomfort.

I didn't hack to the saddlers , I drove there in my car while he stood in the field chomping away merrily and trashing his foot.


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## Herpesas (27 July 2012)

BeesKnees said:



			But isn't part of the problem that 'modern riding' isn't rigorous enough! People frequently cite horses having to cope with all the work we expect them to do as a reason to shoe, but the reality is the average modern horse does minimal work compared to a wild existence or even to the time when horses were agricultural vehicles in effect! 

In reality isn't the issue too much food and not enough rigorous work?
		
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I can only speak from my experience.  In this case, the horse is fed well as he is not a good doer but he is always fed in line with his workload cos, if he isn't, he's an idiot.  The rigours of standing in his stable or field swaying gently from side to side or mooching around is enough to wear his feet down til he's uncomfortable, if I added actually work to that I think he'd have nubs instead of legs!


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## MerrySherryRider (27 July 2012)

cptrayes said:



			There are tons. We even had someone whose sister is a paid trimmer whose own horse has been long term lame. You are only seeing the stuff you want to see.
		
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Only accounts I can see are not on this forum.

 I just feel its unfair for barefooters to farrier bash and then say how wonderful trimmers are. 


 My experience is of farriers who turn up in all weather, get battered by unruly horses and still come out at 8pm or on New Years Day to replace lost shoes, or check for no payment a horse that is showing signs of laminitis or severe thrush, often for horses that aren't even their clients.

How many of us have asked a farrier on the yard to take a look at a lame horse. Would a visiting vet examine your horse for nothing ?

Barefooters accuse them of shoeing horses because they can make more money that way. That's grossly unfair to the genuine farriers out there. Perhaps if they start charging £60 for a trim they won't be accused of bad practice.

There is no shod/unshod divide, many of us owners do both. 

Those who say all shoes are bad, or any horse can go barefoot if their owners can be bothered enough are the ones who cause a divide.


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## Clava (27 July 2012)

Herpesas said:



			I didn't hack to the saddlers , I drove there in my car while he stood in the field chomping away merrily and trashing his foot.
		
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Lol, my mistake it read as if you had hacked and then the hoof was trashed. Sorry.


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## Herpesas (27 July 2012)




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## Pearlsasinger (27 July 2012)

horserider said:



			Only accounts I can see are not on this forum.

 I just feel its unfair for barefooters to farrier bash and then say how wonderful trimmers are. 


 My experience is of farriers who turn up in all weather, get battered by unruly horses and still come out at 8pm or on New Years Day to replace lost shoes, or check for no payment a horse that is showing signs of laminitis or severe thrush, often for horses that aren't even their clients.

How many of us have asked a farrier on the yard to take a look at a lame horse. Would a visiting vet examine your horse for nothing ?

Barefooters accuse them of shoeing horses because they can make more money that way. That's grossly unfair to the genuine farriers out there. Perhaps if they start charging £60 for a trim they won't be accused of bad practice.

There is no shod/unshod divide, many of us owners do both. 

Those who say all shoes are bad, or any horse can go barefoot if their owners can be bothered enough are the ones who cause a divide.
		
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That is my experience too.  Last year a friend brought her horse to us to get ready for a show and then share transport the nest day.  Our horses are kept at home, we have no liveries but the friend's horse was staying overnight.  He lost a shoe.  One phonecall later and our farrier came to put the shoe back on.  He has shod this horse in the past but it is no longer one of his customers 9a location problem, not a fall-out).  We were lucky that the farrier was in the district but he would have been well within his rights to charge a fortune and didn't.
I do wonder where all these farriers who trim the sole and frog are.  We've had 4 farriers in 40 yrs, one who we only had 3 times as we didn't like the shape of the feet he was making, and he was a bit rough with the sensitive horse for our liking.  NONE of them has ever trimmed the frog and the only sole trimming I can remember has been to find an abscess/corn.


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## cptrayes (27 July 2012)

horserider said:
			
		


			The only accounts I can see are not on this forum.
		
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You are not looking hard enough. There are loads. I fail, though, to see why I should do your work for you and find them for you. Just try reading some barefoot threads and you will find one on most of them. Search for "sister" on barefoot threads and you'll find the person who has a lame TB barefoot when she is herself a paid trimmer.




			
				horserider said:
			
		


			I just feel its unfair for barefooters to farrier bash and then say how wonderful trimmers are.
		
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We praise where praise is due and criticise where criticism is due. If we don't know of any horses harmed by a trimmer, how can we talk about them?



			
				horserider said:
			
		


			My experience is of farriers who turn up in all weather, get battered by unruly horses and still come out at 8pm or on New Years Day to replace lost shoes, or check for no payment a horse that is showing signs of laminitis or severe thrush, often for horses that aren't even their clients.
		
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Lucky you. My experience was farriers who made my horses feet bleed, who told me that they could not work barefoot when they could, who shod a laminitic pony instead of recognising the difference between work worn feet and early laminitis, who turned up late, or not at all, who shod horses who never needed shoeing in the first place just because they turned 3 or 4 and started work, one who took my money when he had not shod my horse at all, and several whose shoeing led to the development of navicular syndrome.
And quite a few fairly decent ones who did sound  work on horses which I now realise that I never needed to shoe in the first place, and therefore don't feel strongly motivated to wax lyrical about. 


I deplore bad trimming but I do not personally know of any examples where a trim has lamed a sound horse.  Every time I hear of one, which is frequently ON THIS FORUM, I comment that it is unacceptable to leave a horse more sore after a trim than it was before it.



			
				horserider said:
			
		


			Barefooters accuse them of shoeing horses because they can make more money that way. That's grossly unfair to the genuine farriers out there. Perhaps if they start charging £60 for a trim they won't be accused of bad practice.
		
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I told a farrier the other day that he charges too little for a trim and he agreed that this is true.

I agree that it is grossly unfair to genuine farriers to suggest that they shoe horses because they get more money for it. But we don't. It is not grossly unfair to criticise the many farriers who continue to shoe solid-footed ponies and cobs who they must, or if they don't certainly should, simply do not need shoes with the small amount of work that they are doing. There are far too many of them. 



			
				horserider said:
			
		


			There is no shod/unshod divide, many of us owners do both.
		
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Hallelujah!!!!





			
				horserider said:
			
		


			Those who say all shoes are bad, or any horse can go barefoot if their owners can be bothered enough are the ones who cause a divide.
		
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Who are these mythical people that you keep on and on and on and on and on talking about?

They do not exist on this forum.


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## soloequestrian (27 July 2012)

tallyho! said:



			I think that's great. There are plenty of well shod horses out there. Happy as Larry. 

.....

If you look past the bickering, I think everyone will see that they all have one thing in common.
		
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But if you look at the question the poster was answering, it was

DO THOSE WHO SHOE BELIEVE THAT SHOES DAMAGE FEET?

Obviously good farrier is better than poor farrier, but I want to know how many of those who shoe believe that shoeing does not damage feet at all?


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## Clodagh (27 July 2012)

IMO - and I don't say 'barefoot' thats what my children do but I have horses both unshod and shod - there are loads of people on this forum who think that if you shoe your horse you are a substandard owner. I would prefer to shoe my horse and turn it out on my unfertilised old ley that not shoe a horse and keep it in a stable or a yard. 

My farrier is fantastic and has talked my out of putting shoes on in the past when I would have done.

Saying that shoeing horses can lead to navicular...presumably there are unshod horses who also have navicular? Is it not like the MMR vaccine and autism as in some would go on to develop problems anyway? The same horse can never be managed identically both shod and unshod at the same time with identical stresses on it.


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## Goldenstar (27 July 2012)

soloequestrian said:



			But if you look at the question the poster was answering, it was

DO THOSE WHO SHOE BELIEVE THAT SHOES DAMAGE FEET?

Obviously good farrier is better than poor farrier, but I want to know how many of those who shoe believe that shoeing does not damage feet at all?
		
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I until last year always had my horses shod I am in my fifties and have had horses since childhood I always believed that shoes damage horses feet it was what I was taught as a child teenager and young adult when many of the horsemen and women guiding me where of an age where they could  remember horses as transport and working in agriculture . We where taught that horses need a break from shoeing yearly about 12 weeks the horses where I was were turned onto a hill it  was a moor  really .
I remember a big two year old who lame in his stifles he was turned into a field that was basically a steep hill with a pony he came back sound .
So many of these old things where now what we coming round to seeing the sense it there was of course a lot of bad things to.
Perhaps damage feet is the wrong word I knew shoes are bad for their heels and their walls are damaged by repeated nailing and both heels and walls need a break that what I was learning from these old grooms and hunting people in the late sixties early seventies .


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## HashRouge (27 July 2012)

In all fairness, no-one is farrier bashing just for the sake of it. People only do it if they've had bad experiences with them - whether or not their horses are shod. Plenty of people whose horses are shod have bad experiences with farriers (and post about it). I had a horrible experience with a farrier when my mare was shod, but once we'd got her sorted out, we carried on with shoes for another two years no problem. My current trimmer is qualified farrier as well as a barefoot specialist, so I have the best of both worlds


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## Goldenstar (27 July 2012)

HashRouge said:



			In all fairness, no-one is farrier bashing just for the sake of it. People only do it if they've had bad experiences with them - whether or not their horses are shod. Plenty of people whose horses are shod have bad experiences with farriers (and post about it). I had a horrible experience with a farrier when my mare was shod, but once we'd got her sorted out, we carried on with shoes for another two years no problem. My current trimmer is qualified farrier as well as a barefoot specialist, so I have the best of both worlds 

Click to expand...

That would be perfect a farrier who was a BF specialist you are lucky.


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## Goldenstar (27 July 2012)

Clodagh said:



			IMO - and I don't say 'barefoot' thats what my children do but I have horses both unshod and shod - there are loads of people on this forum who think that if you shoe your horse you are a substandard owner. I would prefer to shoe my horse and turn it out on my unfertilised old ley that not shoe a horse and keep it in a stable or a yard. 

My farrier is fantastic and has talked my out of putting shoes on in the past when I would have done.

Saying that shoeing horses can lead to navicular...presumably there are unshod horses who also have navicular? Is it not like the MMR vaccine and autism as in some would go on to develop problems anyway? The same horse can never be managed identically both shod and unshod at the same time with identical stresses on it.
		
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Of course I think it's likely that some completely BF horses will develop navicular in the same way as women who never wear high heeled shoes may get bunions but they are much more common on women that do and people who have never smoked get lung cancer those who eat well and exercise have a heart attack etc etc.


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## FairyLights (27 July 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			I until last year always had my horses shod I am in my fifties and have had horses since childhood I always believed that shoes damage horses feet it was what I was taught as a child teenager and young adult when many of the horsemen and women guiding me where of an age where they could  remember horses as transport and working in agriculture . We where taught that horses need a break from shoeing yearly about 12 weeks the horses where I was were turned onto a hill it  was a moor  really .
I remember a big two year old who lame in his stifles he was turned into a field that was basically a steep hill with a pony he came back sound .
So many of these old things where now what we coming round to seeing the sense it there was of course a lot of bad things to.
Perhaps damage feet is the wrong word I knew shoes are bad for their heels and their walls are damaged by repeated nailing and both heels and walls need a break that what I was learning from these old grooms and hunting people in the late sixties early seventies .
		
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Very good post.


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## hoofguy (27 July 2012)

Funny how some folk think that shoeing and driving nails is completely bad for a horse and some sit on the fence and some have other more pressing things to worry about!! but ...`and this will poke a response -`if shoeing is un-natural..is`nt chucking a saddle on a horse which may or may not fit then an overweight pilot of which i see a few of on my travels!! going to stress a horses back? anybody had a bad back? you are part of the process.. weight/gravity/load/concussion.. anybody?


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## Goldenstar (27 July 2012)

hoofguy said:



			Funny how some folk think that shoeing and driving nails is completely bad for a horse and some sit on the fence and some have other more pressing things to worry about!! but ...`and this will poke a response -`if shoeing is un-natural..is`nt chucking a saddle on a horse which may or may not fit then an overweight pilot of which i see a few of on my travels!! going to stress a horses back? anybody had a bad back? you are part of the process.. weight/gravity/load/concussion.. anybody?
		
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Not sure what this has to do with the issue ,
FWIW I never ever chuck a saddle on my horse ,I fitten them very carefully after a rest I work very hard and spend a lot of money to ensure their backs are strong.


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## Clava (27 July 2012)

hoofguy said:



			Funny how some folk think that shoeing and driving nails is completely bad for a horse and some sit on the fence and some have other more pressing things to worry about!! but ...`and this will poke a response -`if shoeing is un-natural..is`nt chucking a saddle on a horse which may or may not fit then an overweight pilot of which i see a few of on my travels!! going to stress a horses back? anybody had a bad back? you are part of the process.. weight/gravity/load/concussion.. anybody?
		
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I think some were saying that shoes can be unhealthy rather than un-natural, the saddle and back issues I think are for a different thread.


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## skint1 (27 July 2012)

For those of you who are strong advocates of keeping horses barefoot is there a point where you would give up on it and think "this horse is actually more comfortable in shoes"?


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## Clava (27 July 2012)

skint1 said:



			For those of you who are strong advocates of keeping horses barefoot is there a point where you would give up on it and think "this horse is actually more comfortable in shoes"?
		
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Totally, when my TB went very footy following worming, it was the best option until the wormer was out of her system. For other various reasons I put fronts of for a couple of shoeing, they will be off again in 5 weeks as during the winter her hooves cope fine.


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## skint1 (27 July 2012)

See I like that, it shows a balanced approach that takes the needs of the horse into account.


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## Holly Hocks (27 July 2012)

lyndsayberesford said:



			if it aint broke dont fix it!
		
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My horse was diagnosed with a number of conditions which I won't go into with you.  I was advised to PTS or keep her as a companion.  She was broke.  I went barefoot.  She is fixed.

If she hadn't gone lame though, going barefoot would never ever have crossed my mind.  And that isn't to say I wouldn't put shoes on in the future should the need arise.  However I would do anything to fix my horses - but then maybe I don't see them as disposable as some do.


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## Goldenstar (27 July 2012)

skint1 said:



			For those of you who are strong advocates of keeping horses barefoot is there a point where you would give up on it and think "this horse is actually more comfortable in shoes"?
		
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Yes definatly but I would still take the off twelve weeks a year as a min.
I would also shoe if the horses job was such that it was difficult to manage BF.
OH hunter is working BF at the moment I will shoe him for hunting .
I would have said until  this year I would shoe if they where so senestive to grass that they could not be turned out a lot but this summer I have come to accept that it's best to deal with the reasons for this when I actually met the issue in real life.
And muzzles I won't use them.


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## criso (27 July 2012)

skint1 said:



			For those of you who are strong advocates of keeping horses barefoot is there a point where you would give up on it and think "this horse is actually more comfortable in shoes"?
		
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Not with my current horse, his feet got worse and worse in shoes despite the best farriers I could find doing their best and got lamer and lamer.  If it hadn't worked for him it would have been a case of admitting we'd come to the end of the road.

As for any I might get in the future, never say never however I might try hoof boots first.


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## mystiandsunny (27 July 2012)

Interestingly, I spoke to one of the UKNHCP people on their stand at Your Horse Live a couple of years ago, about my unshod TB.  She was struggling to cope with the increased workload (hacking, often on stony tracks) and I wanted to find a hoof boot she could wear behind, as when she's tired she knocks the hooves together and twists the boots I've tried.  The guy said that in that case she might be better off shod - that the increased work would be doing her good and to shoe rather than decrease it.  His name was Nic I think - was the guy in charge on the stand.  I thought that was a very balanced view of the whole thing - putting the horse's health first.  As it was, work got in the way and we did less so she's still shoe-less, but I've not forgotten what he said...


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## Mrs B (27 July 2012)

I have considered barefoot for my 15.3 IDxTB 17 year old gelding. He grows very little hoof, although what he does grow is good quality having been on Farrier's Formula since 2005.  It took a year to show a result and we're now 7 years on.

He is 'footie' without shoes. He is fed a small amount of Greengold, Lucie Nuts and Total Eclipse, he has hay in winter and he lives on 3/4 acres with 3 others, which is rotated with another similar sized field.

He is shod, he is sound and above all, he is happy and he moves beautifully (gamy leg allowing) and with obvious pleasure - a real 'look at me' character.

But that word 'happy' is the most important one for me: I would not put the poor lad through the discomfort of taking his shoes off, taking him off his field with his mates to a bare area and messing with the 'as close to natural' life he enjoys, simply for the sake of an experiment. For his hoof-health, the restrictions may be great. For his mental health, (which for me trumps hoof-health), they would most certainly not be.

Barefoot advocates sometimes say that shoes 'mask' problems. I say: "So what, if the horse is happy?" I could persevere and take my own shoes off, follow whatever diet hardened the skin on my feet, start a new regime to get my bare feet 'used' to hard work on different terrain and push through the discomfort, the pain and the change of lifestyle... for what? The knowledge that the blood-flow to my feet is better and I won't get corns?? My shoes may mask 'problems' in the purest sense, but am I going to go without for the sake of my corns? Hell, no! I like my life as it is!

We have to remember too how much we have interfered with horse breeding to take them away from the native breeds. We wanted them big and fine and that's what we've got, with all the associated inbuilt defects.

But I digress. The only horse I really care about is mine, and I will make my decision according what I feel is likely to make his life the best quality possible. 

So.

To all those whose horses work well without shoes and are happy to do so: brilliant.

To those whose horses work well with shoes and are happy to do so: brilliant.

What sticks in my craw is when bare footers try to tell me that I am somehow less knowledgeable, caring, enlightened or educated by shoeing my horse. If there's one thing guaranteed to make me spit tacks, is being told I don't have my horse's best interest at heart.


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## YorksG (27 July 2012)

Holly Hocks said:



			My horse was diagnosed with a number of conditions which I won't go into with you.  I was advised to PTS or keep her as a companion.  She was broke.  I went barefoot.  She is fixed.

If she hadn't gone lame though, going barefoot would never ever have crossed my mind.  And that isn't to say I wouldn't put shoes on in the future should the need arise.  However I would do anything to fix my horses - but then maybe I don't see them as disposable as some do.
		
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This post was interesting, until I saw the last twelve words, this rather shows the point that other posters have made throughout this thread, the holier than thou attitude of some of the people who advocate barefoot as the only way to keep horses, they care so much more than those who shoe and thus see their horses as disposable. It is unneccesary and says an awful lot about the poster, in my opinion.


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## tallyho! (27 July 2012)

skint1 said:



			For those of you who are strong advocates of keeping horses barefoot is there a point where you would give up on it and think "this horse is actually more comfortable in shoes"?
		
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Not yet in MY journey. 

However my journey is different to yours and anyone else's. 

If someone wishes to follow me, I am more than willing to extend my hand.


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## AngieandBen (27 July 2012)

YorksG said:



			This post was interesting, until I saw the last twelve words, this rather shows the point that other posters have made throughout this thread, the holier than thou attitude of some of the people who advocate barefoot as the only way to keep horses, they care so much more than those who shoe and thus see their horses as disposable. It is unneccesary and says an awful lot about the poster, in my opinion.
		
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Agree,  We all want whats best for our horses and I've not seen a post anywhere on here where the owner has thought of their horse as disposable, a totally unecessary thing to say


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## tallyho! (27 July 2012)

YorksG said:



			This post was interesting, until I saw the last twelve words, this rather shows the point that other posters have made throughout this thread, the holier than thou attitude of some of the people who advocate barefoot as the only way to keep horses, they care so much more than those who shoe and thus see their horses as disposable. It is unneccesary and says an awful lot about the poster, in my opinion.
		
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Do you really think so? If you put that in to context and asked the poster who she meant by those words, perhaps we would see different things.

There ARE people who shoe to mask issues. This doesn't include ALL people with shod horses.

Why do remarks like that give licence for insults towards barefoot brigade? It's as if every little thing is being watched just so it can be jumped upon and ripped apart by those who feel aggrieved by some non existent "Taliban" 

Absolutely crazy.


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## AngieandBen (27 July 2012)

skint1 said:



			For those of you who are strong advocates of keeping horses barefoot is there a point where you would give up on it and think "this horse is actually more comfortable in shoes"?
		
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Not for Ben, although he was comfortable in shoes, it was more to do with being shod, he was terrified

I have had Turbo shod for a few months of the year ( probably about three times over the last 10 years) simply so I can ride him like the clappers in summer to keep the weight off!  Now he does well in hoof boots.


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## YorksG (27 July 2012)

tallyho! said:



			Do you really think so? If you put that in to context and asked the poster who she meant by those words, perhaps we would see different things.

There ARE people who shoe to mask issues. This doesn't include ALL people with shod horses.

Why do remarks like that give licence for insults towards barefoot brigade? It's as if every little thing is being watched just so it can be jumped upon and ripped apart by those who feel aggrieved by some non existent "Taliban" 

Absolutely crazy.
		
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As  said in my post it speaks about THAT poster, also as I said about SOME of the people who advocate barefoot, and the context is this thread! Why do those people who advocte barefoot who feel that they are jumped on and ripped apart quite so defensive?  I made it perfecty clear that I was not aiming my comments at all those who advocte leaving their horses unshod, I made no comment about a brigade or taliban, those are your comments and your imagined slight.


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## tallyho! (27 July 2012)

Mrs B said:



			What sticks in my craw is when bare footers try to tell me that I am somehow less knowledgeable, caring, enlightened or educated by shoeing my horse. If there's one thing guaranteed to make me spit tacks, is being told I don't have my horse's best interest at heart.
		
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Be great to know who these people are. It's really embarrassing that the barefoot weirdos make you feel that way, and so many others of course. That way we can report them and stop this awful discrimination against people who shoe horses.


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## tallyho! (27 July 2012)

YorksG said:



			As  said in my post it speaks about THAT poster, also as I said about SOME of the people who advocate barefoot, and the context is this thread! Why do those people who advocte barefoot who feel that they are jumped on and ripped apart quite so defensive?  I made it perfecty clear that I was not aiming my comments at all those who advocte leaving their horses unshod, I made no comment about a brigade or taliban, those are your comments and your imagined slight.
		
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Perhaps so. Maybe it would be useful to name people because I get paranoid that you are talking about me because I am a barefoot fan.

I mean, I ride well shod horses as well as barefoot ones, but I believe that barefoot is a good thing.

It's not difficult to take it the wrong way. D you know what I mean yorksG? Say something often enough and it becomes gospel


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## YorksG (27 July 2012)

tallyho! said:



			Perhaps so. Maybe it would be useful to name people because I get paranoid that you are talking about me because I am a barefoot fan.

I mean, I ride well shod horses as well as barefoot ones, but I believe that barefoot is a good thing.

It's not difficult to take it the wrong way.
		
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Well given that I had quoted the poster, who was not you, I fail to see how you could possibly have thought it was about you. Well I can think of reasons, but not particularly cogent ones


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## tallyho! (27 July 2012)

YorksG said:



			This post was interesting, until I saw the last twelve words, this rather shows the point that other posters have made throughout this thread, the holier than thou attitude of some of the people who advocate barefoot as the only way to keep horses, they care so much more than those who shoe and thus see their horses as disposable. It is unneccesary and says an awful lot about the poster, in my opinion.
		
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Here you are... Now, please tell me the whole of that was aimed at a singular person. You highlight a post but expand it to include A larger group by saying "the people who advocate barefoot". That surely includes myself. I am an advocate. Then, you say "they" ... Who do you mean by "they".

As a collective who feel rather got at by the shod mafia (joke by the way) I am rather perturbed at the incessant insults. I just feel I need to keep pointing them out


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## YorksG (27 July 2012)

tallyho! said:



			Here you are... Now, please tell me the whole of that was aimed at a singular person. You highlight a post but expand it to include A larger group by saying "the people who advocate barefoot". That surely includes myself. I am an advocate. Then, you say "they" ... Who do you mean by "they".

As a collective who feel rather got at by the shod mafia (joke by the way) I am rather perturbed at the incessant insults. I just feel I need to keep pointing them out 

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You perceive insults towards a whole group where there are none. I do wish YOU would stop misquoting. I had made it clear that I was referring to some of the people who advocate keeping horses barefoot. Now if you are including yourself as one of the people who believe themselves to be holier than thou, that is your choice.


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## tallyho! (27 July 2012)

YorksG said:



			You perceive insults towards a whole group where there are none. I do wish YOU would stop misquoting. I had made it clear that I was referring to some of the people who advocate keeping horses barefoot. Now if you are including yourself as one of the people who believe themselves to be holier than thou, that is your choice.
		
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That is true and I agree with you actually. My point is, you are tarring us with the same brush by posting what you have posted. I haven't misquoted you. I have quoted the bits which largely include a group you may have insulted. 

If you don't mean it, then why do it? 

This is why I got so upset earlier in the thread. If you intend on on insulting one person, then say so. Which actually you have. But still, it extended inadvertently to a wider group. Didn't it. Oh well. Never mind. Hope we can forget it and move on. Not end of world


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## YorksG (27 July 2012)

For the final time, I posted that SOME people who advocate barefoot have a holier than thou attitude, this does not mean all advocates of barefoot have this attitude, that is what SOME means in this context. If you wish to be insulted, then feel free to be insulted, I insulted no-one, merely stated my opinion of SOME peoples views, but you wished to feel insulted, your choice.


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## tallyho! (27 July 2012)

YorksG said:



			For the final time, I posted that SOME people who advocate barefoot have a holier than thou attitude, this does not mean all advocates of barefoot have this attitude, that is what SOME means in this context. If you wish to be insulted, then feel free to be insulted, I insulted no-one, merely stated my opinion of SOME peoples views, but you wished to feel insulted, your choice.
		
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Hmm. Ok.


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## Herpesas (27 July 2012)

It is true Tallyho!, you have misquoted YorksG who has made a valid point.  There is one poster on this thread who has dismissed all arguements for shoeing so far and, in a brief search of posts they've made on other barefoot threads, it does seem to be their permanent stance on this debate.


(it's not you by the way! )


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## cptrayes (27 July 2012)

hoofguy said:



			`if shoeing is un-natural..is`nt chucking a saddle on a horse which may or may not fit then an overweight pilot of which i see a few of on my travels!! going to stress a horses back? anybody had a bad back? you are part of the process.. weight/gravity/load/concussion.. anybody?
		
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Two wrongs don't make a right, do they? Shoeing a horse who does not need shoes has stuff all to do with putting an ill fitting saddle on a horse. I would  no more put an ill fitting saddle on a horse than I would put shoes on it when it does not need it. 

No, it's not natural to saddle or ride a horse. But I keep my horses to ride, so I saddle and ride them. They don't need shoes for me to do that, so I don't shoe them. 

I don't get your argument at all, sorry 



skint1 said:



			For those of you who are strong advocates of keeping horses barefoot is there a point where you would give up on it and think "this horse is actually more comfortable in shoes"?
		
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Of course. If I found one, but I haven't yet found one, including one that was due to be put down and had the appointment booked, and one that two farriers told me would never be able to work barefoot. I am very lucky to be able to control to the tiniest detail the way my horses live and what they eat. This isn't possible for people in a livery yard, or people who work full time. 

I'm not actually a strong advoctate of "keeping horses barefoot" so much as an extremely strong advocate of "not shoeing horses  who  do not need shoeing", and it's my opinion that there are still far too many of those in this country at the moment. 



YorksG said:



			This post was interesting, until I saw the last twelve words, this rather shows the point that other posters have made throughout this thread, the holier than thou attitude of some of the people who advocate barefoot as the only way to keep horses, they care so much more than those who shoe and thus see their horses as disposable. It is unneccesary and says an awful lot about the poster, in my opinion.
		
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I completely agree with you on that YG, the comment appears to be deliberately inflammatory and spoils the discussion.


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## YorksG (27 July 2012)

tallyho! said:



			Hmm. Ok.
		
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How gracious!



Herpesas said:



			It is true Tallyho!, you have misquoted YorksG who has made a valid point.  There is one poster on this thread who has dismissed all arguements for shoeing so far and, in a brief search of posts they've made on other barefoot threads, it does seem to be their permanent stance on this debate.


(it's not you by the way! )
		
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Thank you Herpesas


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## cptrayes (27 July 2012)

Clodagh said:



			Saying that shoeing horses can lead to navicular...presumably there are unshod horses who also have navicular? Is it not like the MMR vaccine and autism as in some would go on to develop problems anyway? The same horse can never be managed identically both shod and unshod at the same time with identical stresses on it.
		
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Horses in shoes seem to develop the long toes, weak heels and toe first landing that are the main prerequisites of long term hoof lameness much more easily than unshod horses.  In addition, the vast majority of horses which are in shoes when this happens are brought sound in a few months by removal of the shoes (plus good feeding and a proper work program), leading to the strong conclusion that the shoes were causing or perpetuating the problem. 

I know of three unshod horses with caudal hoof lameness. All were caused by inadequate stimulation of the back half of the foot leading to a frog which was not in ground contact, and a toe first landing. Ironically, those horses also looked as if they had grown a "shoe" of horn around their foot, something which many owners, farriers and vets would assume to be a good thing. All three horses were rapidly brought sound with a standard barefoot rehab (one of them with a leading veterinary hospital prognosis after MRI and scintigraphs that it would be unlikely to work properly ever again - walk trot canter sound in under 8 weeks and now jumping for a living)


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## Achinghips (27 July 2012)

To illustrate CPtrayes thoughts, some may find the following vid helpful 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REReSZKMnkg


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## tallyho! (28 July 2012)

YorksG said:



			How gracious!


Thank you Herpesas 

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I apologise


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## tallyho! (28 July 2012)

Thanks for that AH. I also spotted this one I forgot about from Nic but does illustrate the difference in landings that could affect the navicular & caudal hoof.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=1-us0SxGL2o&NR=1


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## lazybee (28 July 2012)

cptrayes said:



			We just come on here to answer questions that people post. Please don't read them if you don't want to know.
		
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Actually all you really do (like the rest of us) is give your opinion. I find this with another forum I go on (beekeeping) it's full of well meaning hobbyists with a few hives who set themselves up as leading authorities. They see their own opinions as enlightened superior knowledge.


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## Clava (28 July 2012)

lazybee said:



			Actually all you really do (like the rest of us) is give your opinion. I find this with another forum I go on (beekeeping) it's full of well meaning hobbyists with a few hives who set themselves up as leading authorities. They see their own opinions as enlightened superior knowledge.
		
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I don't think CPTrayes has set herself up as that at all, she does simply answer questions or gives opinions on what she feels she has information on. I personally have found this information incredibly helpful and I'm sure many others have too.


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## MerrySherryRider (28 July 2012)

Clava said:



			I don't think CPTrayes has set herself up as that at all, she does simply answer questions or gives opinions on what she feels she has information on. I personally have found this information incredibly helpful and I'm sure many others have too.
		
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You have misinterpreted the post. It was not aimed at CPTrayes but was a general observation.


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## Goldenstar (28 July 2012)

lazybee said:



			Actually all you really do (like the rest of us) is give your opinion. I find this with another forum I go on (beekeeping) it's full of well meaning hobbyists with a few hives who set themselves up as leading authorities. They see their own opinions as enlightened superior knowledge.
		
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Not much point in a forum where no one  gives a strong definite opinions that much chance of debate in those circumstances .
Of course some people argue their case with more force than others as in life some people can hold the line of a argument better than others.
Personally I see no point in a forum that exists around a I think this as long as you don't mind type of approach.
However I fail to see why it's necessary to descend to silly insults whether against a group or even worse individual .


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## Clava (28 July 2012)

horserider said:



			You have misinterpreted the post. It was not aimed at CPTrayes but was a general observation.
		
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A general observation aimed at who then? - everyone who posts information about being barefoot? Bit hard to be a general observation without being meaningless then.


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## skint1 (28 July 2012)

I think feelings tend to run high because ultimately everyone loves and wants to do the best by their horses, and of course there are many ways to do that. For some people, and to be clear im not referring to anyone on this forum individually, it's hard to accept there's more than one way to do something.


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## cptrayes (28 July 2012)

lazybee said:



			Actually all you really do (like the rest of us) is give your opinion. I find this with another forum I go on (beekeeping) it's full of well meaning hobbyists with a few hives who set themselves up as leading authorities. They see their own opinions as enlightened superior knowledge.
		
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oooooooh, get you !

Get out of bed on the wrong side this morning did you, or are you always this nasty?


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## MerrySherryRider (28 July 2012)

Clava said:



			A general observation aimed at who then? - everyone who posts information about being barefoot? Bit hard to be a general observation without being meaningless then.
		
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I would have thought it was aimed at anyone who posts on a forum,about any topic. To interpret it as an attack on CPTrayes would be an example of oversensitivity or even concrete thinking.


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## Clava (28 July 2012)

horserider said:



			To interpret it as an attack on CPTrayes would be an example of oversensitivity or even concrete thinking.
		
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If you quote someone directly and use the word "you" when refering to them it is a fairly obvious conclusion and really to call it "concrete thinking" whatever that is,  is quite laughable.


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## MerrySherryRider (28 July 2012)

Clava said:



			If you quote someone directly and use the word "you" when refering to them it is a fairly obvious conclusion and really to call it "concrete thinking" whatever that is,  is quite laughable.
		
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In English grammar it is common usage. If spoken, the accent would be on the word 'You' if directed specificially at someone. 
 The alternative in text would be to use 'one' instead of a generic 'you', but in practice, it isn't used so much these days.


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## Achinghips (28 July 2012)

Perhaps we should rename this thread "thoughts on grammer, syntax and each other for posters who want an argument"  

Here you go:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y


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## Holly Hocks (28 July 2012)

YorksG said:



			This post was interesting, until I saw the last twelve words, this rather shows the point that other posters have made throughout this thread, the holier than thou attitude of some of the people who advocate barefoot as the only way to keep horses, they care so much more than those who shoe and thus see their horses as disposable. It is unneccesary and says an awful lot about the poster, in my opinion.
		
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Sorry YorksG - wasn't meant to be holier than thou - those who know me will know that wasn't my intention.  It was really in response to those people who refuse wholeheartedly to acknowledge that barefoot would never work for their horse and some would have their horses PTS without even trying it.  There are those who are passionate about barefoot (and I'm not actually passionate about it - it's just that it's worked for my horse).  I had to have the shoes taken off my old TB when he got too stiff to be shod, but sadly he never ever adapted, so proof there that it doesn't work for every horse. And there are also those who are adamant that there horse could NEVER manage without shoes, without even trying it.  I have seen a number of posts on the forum where people have been at what they see as the end of the line and taking the shoes off has been suggested.  The poster has then responded that their horse could never manage without shoes and won't even consider it.  all I am saying is that I was also at the end of the line, and whilst it would have been an easy option to PTS, I bit the bullet and gave her one last chance.  
If my horse hadn't had the problems she would still be wearing shoes to this day as I was also an owner who considered it a fad and that it wouldn't work - especially having had a TB before which it didn't work on. 
Apologies if you thought my original post was inflammatory - that wasn't my intent.


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## tallyho! (28 July 2012)

Achinghips said:



			Perhaps we should rename this thread "thoughts on grammer, syntax and each other for posters who want an argument"  

Here you go:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y

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Rofl!!!

Omg thank goodness for HHO or I'd be well out of pocket by now...


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## Clava (28 July 2012)

Achinghips said:



			Perhaps we should rename this thread "thoughts on grammer, syntax and each other for posters who want an argument"  

Here you go:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y

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How true


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## laura_nash (29 July 2012)

Amaranta said:



			Just as it is the choice of those who shoe their horses to keep them shod.  To be honest, I am a little puzzled as to why you would find the 'if it needs shoes, shoe it, if it does not, then don't' take on things annoying.  You ask for freedom of choice and then seem to be trying to deny others the same right to make a choice 

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I'm not denying people the choice to shoe their horse - I'm just saying it is a choice of the owner.  No horse NEEDS shoes.  They need water, fibre, shelter etc but not metal shoes.  A horse might need something if it is uncomfortable.  Whether that something is shoes, a lifestyle change (diet / exercise regime etc) or boots is a CHOICE of the owner.  By saying to me that my horse NEEDS shoes (and people have) the person is taking my choice away, and that is why I find it annoying.  I've never said to anyone their horse needs to have its shoes taken off (even if I have thought it with one or two)!

If someone says that their take on things is that if the horse is comfortable doing its current work without shoes with no major changes to its lifestyle they don't shoe and if it is not then they do, then that is fine and their decision.


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## merlinsquest (29 July 2012)

laura_nash said:



			I'm not denying people the choice to shoe their horse - I'm just saying it is a choice of the owner.  No horse NEEDS shoes.  They need water, fibre, shelter etc but not metal shoes.  A horse might need something if it is uncomfortable.  Whether that something is shoes, a lifestyle change (diet / exercise regime etc) or boots is a CHOICE of the owner.  By saying to me that my horse NEEDS shoes (and people have) the person is taking my choice away, and that is why I find it annoying.  I've never said to anyone their horse needs to have its shoes taken off (even if I have thought it with one or two)!

If someone says that their take on things is that if the horse is comfortable doing its current work without shoes with no major changes to its lifestyle they don't shoe and if it is not then they do, then that is fine and their decision.
		
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I usually don't post on these threads, but in answer to the above we went show jumping on grass today, having watched various horses slipping on the turns I am so glad that I had shoes on & studs all round, so you are wrong as my horse NEEDS shoes so that I can put studs in so we don't slip over when we are competing.  I expect to get jumped on now that studs are unnecessary, unshod horses don't slip etc etc, well they were today & I don't fancy a broken pelvis or a lame horse thanks.  My exercise regime & diet are fine BTW


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## laura_nash (29 July 2012)

merlinsquest said:



			I usually don't post on these threads, but in answer to the above we went show jumping on grass today, having watched various horses slipping on the turns I am so glad that I had shoes on & studs all round, so you are wrong as my horse NEEDS shoes so that I can put studs in so we don't slip over when we are competing.  I expect to get jumped on now that studs are unnecessary, unshod horses don't slip etc etc, well they were today & I don't fancy a broken pelvis or a lame horse thanks.  My exercise regime & diet are fine BTW
		
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So in your case the change in lifestyle that might be required would be stop show jumping, which you (quite understandably) don't want to do.  I'm not going to jump on you, since I haven't jumped for years  .  I'm just saying that your horse doesn't actually NEED shoes in the way that it needs water to drink, you make the choice to show-jump and therefore to shoe in order to have studs.  Another owner with the same horse might have different preferences.

I choose to keep my horse barefoot because I prefer the feel of hacking a barefoot horse, the surefootedness and lack of slipping on the roads etc.  If that means he has to wear a muzzle sometimes, have less grass to eat, eat a specialist supplement, wear boots sometimes, and generally have his feet, diet and lifestyle obsessed over I refuse to be made to feel guilty or derided for that (not by you merlinsquest, but that was what prompted my original post).


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## Goldenstar (29 July 2012)

merlinsquest said:



			I usually don't post on these threads, but in answer to the above we went show jumping on grass today, having watched various horses slipping on the turns I am so glad that I had shoes on & studs all round, so you are wrong as my horse NEEDS shoes so that I can put studs in so we don't slip over when we are competing.  I expect to get jumped on now that studs are unnecessary, unshod horses don't slip etc etc, well they were today & I don't fancy a broken pelvis or a lame horse thanks.  My exercise regime & diet are fine BTW
		
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That's an opinion not a fact .


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## merlinsquest (29 July 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			That's an opinion not a fact .
		
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No Goldenstar its a fact that horses were slipping today that were either unshod or shod without studs, mine did not slip because she had 8 studs in, therefore its pretty clear that she needs shoes in order to put studs in meaning we don't slip over & get injured.


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## cptrayes (29 July 2012)

merlinsquest said:



			I usually don't post on these threads, but in answer to the above we went show jumping on grass today, having watched various horses slipping on the turns I am so glad that I had shoes on & studs all round, so you are wrong as my horse NEEDS shoes so that I can put studs in so we don't slip over when we are competing.  I expect to get jumped on now that studs are unnecessary, unshod horses don't slip etc etc, well they were today & I don't fancy a broken pelvis or a lame horse thanks.  My exercise regime & diet are fine BTW
		
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My five horses that I did affiliated eventing on did not need shoes. 

What they needed was for me to ride them nicely balanced and at a speed that was within their capabilities to grip and balance with no shoes on.

My barefoot hunter does not need studs and no hunter, shod or not, has studs. The argument to stud does not wash with me.

ALL horses slip from time to time. There is a PhD which was done by a Farrier who has come to the conclusion that slipping has a purpose, which is to limit strain on the joints. That farrier now says that the use of studs should be questioned as potentially damaging, and perhaps shoes as well. 

If you felt you needed studs, then obviously you needed shoes, and there is no problem with that from my point of view. But there are other choices. Not shoe jumping on grass would be one issue, affiliated dressage riders stopped competing on grass some time ago. Accepting a lower place due to a marginally slower jump-off or cross country time is another, and that is my personal lifestyle choice rather than 24/7 shoes.


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## Holly Hocks (29 July 2012)

Is there not a farrier who comes on this forum who disagrees with studs because of the jarring effect they have on joints?  I could be wrong, but I feel that I've read it somewhere on here or maybe another forum?  Perhaps someone else might remember.


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## cptrayes (29 July 2012)

merlinsquest said:



			No Goldenstar its a fact that horses were slipping today that were either unshod or shod without studs, mine did not slip because she had 8 studs in, therefore its pretty clear that she needs shoes in order to put studs in meaning we don't slip over & get injured.
		
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Not at all. 

One other option would have been to slow down, turn wider and keep your horse in natural balance without needing to dig an edge of metal in as if it was a ski doing a parallel turn.

A second would have been to increase your horse's training to a level where it could weight its hind end like a dressage horse in piaffe, and spin in balance. If it has sufficient talent to learn to do that.

The speed and sharpness of the turn were your choice, as were the studs. I don't have any problem with that, provided that you understand the level of strain that you put on your horse's front joints if her feet were nailed to the floor on landing by studs in front shoes and make your choice in that full awareness.


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## cptrayes (29 July 2012)

Holly Hocks said:



			Is there not a farrier who comes on this forum who disagrees with studs because of the jarring effect they have on joints?  I could be wrong, but I feel that I've read it somewhere on here or maybe another forum?  Perhaps someone else might remember.
		
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Moorman thinks studs should be banned.


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## Goldenstar (29 July 2012)

Your post says it all they where all slipping.
I never studded my eventers until advanced until that sort of hieght I never felt the need .
But my horses do most of there jumping on a prepared grass area so they are extremely good at balancing them selves.
Its an opinion some people think BF horses are better on the roads TBH I can see no difference between my shod and unshod ones on the roads I have slipped up and come down XC on a shod/studded  horse in the past.
Unless the jumps are huge and yes for three days event I did stud but frankly I worried constantly about their legs and my own I have a cracking scar on my leg from a stud where the horse stood on me getting up after a fall .
IBH it's my opinion that unless you are at the higher levels the risk outweighs the benefit of studs horses hunt in all sorts of conditions without studs.
Shoes no shoes up to a 1.10 which is all I do now adays I would allow my self to be guided by the horse.


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## merlinsquest (29 July 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Not at all. 

One other option would have been to slow down, turn wider and keep your horse in natural balance without needing to dig an edge of metal in as if it was a ski doing a parallel turn.

A second would have been to increase your horse's training to a level where it could weight its hind end like a dressage horse in piaffe, and spin in balance. If it has sufficient talent to learn to do that.

The speed and sharpness of the turn were your choice, as were the studs. I don't have any problem with that, provided that you understand the level of strain that you put on your horse's front joints if her feet were nailed to the floor on landing by studs in front shoes and make your choice in that full awareness.
		
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We should clearly agree to disagree, next time I am having a lesson I will point out that to win a jump off at grand prix level my coach should be slowing down & turning wider rather than keeping an even level canter, covering more ground & turning up tighter  My horse does take plenty of weight back, decent show jumpers have to to stay engaged & be able to jump & turn.  I didn't turn particularly tightly today as it was slippy & would always put the smallest studs in that I think are suitable.  It is clearly a very personal choice, but for me I would feel unconfident jumping on grass without studs.


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## ester (29 July 2012)

I think if you want to be particularly competitive on grass regardless of the conditions then you probably do need shoes and studs. Its a choice though and imagine some are more competitive than others who might just enjoy the occasion and a good round.


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## SusieT (29 July 2012)

Our one pony who wears a muzzle hates it with a passion-for the mental frustration that it gives him he is far better off in shoes than wearing a muzzle. (not that having shoes off is something we'd do with him anyway). I have never had a shod horse slip on the road-and they don't slip anymore than unshod horses on the grasss. 
Most barefooters seem to forget that the mental frustration they impose on their horses is often unforgiveable, and that horses will shut down if not given the oppurtunity to express their natural behaviours-i.e movement in an open space in a herd.
Many shod riders forget this too-i.e stabling 24/7.


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## ester (29 July 2012)

I would certainly be uncomfortable using a muzzle and always have been, I would prefer to try anything but. As we are able to ours are out on a track-system, this is mostly because due to enforced restricted exercise we need to restrict grazing and they have been able to have more space this way. The one who is on restricted exercise is rounder than ideal but I feel for us it is the best compromise that we can manage currently.


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## Goldenstar (29 July 2012)

SusieT said:



			Our one pony who wears a muzzle hates it with a passion-for the mental frustration that it gives him he is far better off in shoes than wearing a muzzle. (not that having shoes off is something we'd do with him anyway). I have never had a shod horse slip on the road-and they don't slip anymore than unshod horses on the grasss. 
Most barefooters seem to forget that the mental frustration they impose on their horses is often unforgiveable, and that horses will shut down if not given the oppurtunity to express their natural behaviours-i.e movement in an open space in a herd.
Many shod riders forget this too-i.e stabling 24/7.
		
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Not sure what mental frustration you think I inflict on my BF horses who have a lovely life exactly the same life as my shod horses they come in out of the flys which they love but I have made no management changes apart from swopping to oats and changing the chaff I use which I have done for all the horses.
I personally will never use a muzzle my only attempts at this lead to a severely distressed horse so they are a big no no to me no good being out with a friend if you can't interact with him mine hated not being able to groom his friend.
I don't do herd turn out I used to but the injuries where to frequent and IMO big herds of fit sport horses and TB's is too dangerous it was a broken leg that stopped me in the end turning horses out together . I now turn out in twos and three or alone with a view of friends.
The slipping thing is a funny one I honestly think there is no difference based on the fact I ride shod and unshod horses daily.
I always wonder about the shod horse slipping on the road thing when I read it its simply not my experiance.


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## Hollycatt (29 July 2012)

I think there are different road surfaces in different areas/locations. I have ridden shod on some slippery roads and on other roads the horses never slipped once.  I think long lush wet grass can be slippery for unshod horses. On balance on the slippery roads the unshod ones of mine were better than the shod ones.

I have never really made any amendments to diet for my unshod or shod horses. All have been ok with daily turnout, daily ridden exercise and feedwise nothing special. Just a regular feed for the work they were doing. The warmblood I took shoes off wasn't footy for more than a few days then he was fine. I have probably just been lucky with the horses I have bought, though feet and soundness are a big consideration when buying for me.


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## Pale Rider (29 July 2012)

Shod horses on tarmac are a nightmare, and to be safe even in walk you need road nails. Others may have a different opinion, but that is erroneous, whether they mean to be or not.
Barefoot horses are a lot safer on tarmac a slip very little, in all gaits.
A lot has been said about competition and the need for studded shoes in certain conditions. Of course the right and proper thing to do would be not to compete in theses conditions. This however, is too big an ask for the majority, better to use artificial means like shoes and studs to ensure that the show goes on.
My personal view is to withdraw from competitions where the ground required shoes and studs.


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## cptrayes (29 July 2012)

I rode, PR, in every conceivable type of ground conditions. Henbury was so wet people were coming off the cross country complaining they were slipping. Of course I didn't make the time, who cares, but we had a wonderful, safe, clear round. It can be done, at least to Novice, you just have to slow down on the corners and have your horse well balanced through the combinations.

I live in a hilly area and my horses are definitely not slippy at all on the roads and were sometimes frightening in shoes.


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## cptrayes (29 July 2012)

merlinsquest said:



			We should clearly agree to disagree, next time I am having a lesson I will point out that to win a jump off at grand prix level my coach should be slowing down & turning wider rather than keeping an even level canter, covering more ground & turning up tighter .
		
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But that's exactly the point I am making. You are using studs to get a higher place, not because you cannot jump without them. It's your choice.


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## quirky (29 July 2012)

Never had road studs, never had a horse slip on the road 
My riding partners' horse slips though


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## Pale Rider (29 July 2012)

I'd agree cpt but people push beyond what is reasonable for the horse, hence the demand for studs.


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## WestCoast (29 July 2012)

I think it's fair to say that some horses are happier barefoot and some shod. When I got hairy hoss she was barefoot, and i was happy to see how she went as she had neverbeen shod, but she was clearly uncomfortable on stony ground and so I got fronts put on. She's much better now and has stopped refusing to move forwards on the uneven ground to her stable. 

But I do think that all this supplement stuff is as likely to be clap trap in the same way it is with humans and will only help of there is a deficiency in the food given. 

Paula


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## cptrayes (29 July 2012)

SusieT said:



			Our one pony who wears a muzzle hates it with a passion-for the mental frustration that it gives him he is far better off in shoes than wearing a muzzle. (not that having shoes off is something we'd do with him anyway). I have never had a shod horse slip on the road-and they don't slip anymore than unshod horses on the grasss. 
Most barefooters seem to forget that the mental frustration they impose on their horses is often unforgiveable, and that horses will shut down if not given the oppurtunity to express their natural behaviours-i.e movement in an open space in a herd.
Many shod riders forget this too-i.e stabling 24/7.
		
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What mental frustration are we imposing on our horses SusieT?

I too had a pony who I would have had to muzzle this year. He didn't hate it at all, but I did. He used to willingly come to me for it to be put on when he was loose in the field. I would still have had to muzzle him in shoes. I didn't think I was giving him a good life, so instead, I found him a better home than I could give him and cried as I handed him over.

Your assumption that we all deprive our horses of company and free movement is incredibly insulting. I defy you to find a better management method than I am lucky enough to be able to give mine.

If you are condemning track systems then I think you need to do some more horse-watching. If you give horses a big enough field, they make their own tracks in it, with a set of "bedrooms" of bare scooped out earth, and they can be found in the same places at the same times on most days. Track systems may be linear but they do not prevent natural free movement

If you are condemning strip grazing, no-one strip grazes so they can be barefoot. They strip graze to prevent laminitis and weight issues. It's a pain in the neck and I take my hat off to anyone who can be bothered to do it.


I live on a hilll with a 25% gradient. It is a rare ride when  a shod horse does not slip at all on that hill and a rare ride when a barefoot one does.


ps. Still waiting for that apology for your accusation that I was looking to put down my wobbler for my own sake and not his, by the way.


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## Holly Hocks (29 July 2012)

Paulag said:



			But I do think that all this supplement stuff is as likely to be clap trap in the same way it is with humans and will only help of there is a deficiency in the food given. 

Paula
		
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You're possibly right, but I've got a horse on Pro Hoof which costs quite a lot and horse's feet are great - I'm scared of stopping giving it to her in case her feet get worse!  I've been well and truly sucked in to the world of supplements!


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## cptrayes (29 July 2012)

Paulag said:



			I think it's fair to say that some horses are happier barefoot and some shod. When I got hairy hoss she was barefoot, and i was happy to see how she went as she had neverbeen shod, but she was clearly uncomfortable on stony ground and so I got fronts put on. She's much better now and has stopped refusing to move forwards on the uneven ground to her stable. 

But I do think that all this supplement stuff is as likely to be clap trap in the same way it is with humans and will only help of there is a deficiency in the food given. 

Paula
		
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Priceless !

You stick shoes on your horse before even trying whether any of the claptrap actually works. 

More fool you.

Are you aware that spring grass is normally deficient in magnesium?

Are you aware that human type II diabetes sufferers are being treated with magnesium oxide?

Are you aware that yeast is scientfically proven to reduce inflammation in the gut two ways?

Are you aware that a high proportion of forage analyses are coming back high in manganese and iron and/or low in copper, and that combination will cause laminitic issues in many horses?

Do you even know how much sugar is added to the food you give your horse?

Etc Etc.

Do you care? No. OK, you just continue to congratulate yourself for resolving your mare's sore feet by shoeing when her previous owner had no need to.


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## Pale Rider (29 July 2012)

Interesting that basic animal husbandry like ensuring minerals, vitamins and trace elements are available and appropriate can be referred to as clap trap, lol.


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## WestCoast (29 July 2012)

Cptrayes So I see that you've quoted the meta analysis of randomised controlled trials that proved scientific significance for the statements that you've made here. Oh no, wait a minute, you haven't - why bother you have all your lovely proof by vigorous assertion to rely on. You might be ae to bully other people with your aggressiveness, but I'm used to uneducated twerps in my day job. 

And no magnesium oxide is not used to treat type 2 diabetes you silly person. I'd be struck off if I claimed that. 

I didnt critisise barefooters, I would expect serious criticism if I left my mare with sore feet for the sake of thirty quid. 

I doubt there's a great deal of sugar in the feed my horse gets - you are aware that grass and hay is digested down to sugar aren't you? In metabolic syndrome the carbohydrate load is of more relevance than the glycemic index. 

Also high supplements of some minerals block the absorption of others and can be toxic. I specifically said that they are useful where fees is deficient. We get an analysis and a supplement to match deficiencies in the forage on the farm. 

Don't be so damn aggressive if you don't want to look an idiot. Forums are about adult conversations, not bullying other owners. 

Paula


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## ester (29 July 2012)

Paulag said:



			But I do think that all this supplement stuff is as likely to be clap trap in the same way it is with humans and will only help of there is a deficiency in the food given. 

Paula
		
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so when you've analysed and know the deficiency.. what then? claptrap?

fwiw I do think that is the fluffiest/wooliest bit of it but am happy to currently accept the trial and error of others atm as its the best I think we have.

eta I thought it was well known that most of the carbs acquired are likely to come from grass and hay given they eat lots of it. 

I wish there was a lot more solid scientific evidence than there is, unfortunately there isn't so its a choice I have to make or not.


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## AngieandBen (29 July 2012)

SusieT said:



			Our one pony who wears a muzzle hates it with a passion-for the mental frustration that it gives him he is far better off in shoes than wearing a muzzle. (not that having shoes off is something we'd do with him anyway). I have never had a shod horse slip on the road-and they don't slip anymore than unshod horses on the grasss. 
Most barefooters seem to forget that the mental frustration they impose on their horses is often unforgiveable, and that horses will shut down if not given the oppurtunity to express their natural behaviours-i.e movement in an open space in a herd.
Many shod riders forget this too-i.e stabling 24/7.
		
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Right..............8 years ago I rescued a  lovely 14.1hh Sec D from a 13 acre field ( shared with one other pony ) He had lamintis  I managed to get him home ( 60 miles away ) Get a vet out, who was amazed he was alive.  I had him weighed.............he was 730 KILOS!!!!!!!
He could not be ridden for months,  so after being stabled for 8 weeks he began to go out on a track, which went round a half acre paddock with lots of trees/hedges/nettles plus a lttle grass MUZZLED!

He did not in the least find it fustrating, it probably saved his life.  It took me another 5 years to get him down to 420 kilos.  

My ponies have a lovely life thanks, they are literally out my back door, have 5 acres to run around in the winter, only stabled during hot weather to get out of the flies.

I would much rather see a horse with a muzzle on and out than inside 24/7 because he has laminitis


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## criso (29 July 2012)

I don't understand how anyone can say that shod horses don't slip on the road.  Yes there are road surfaces that are OK but there is a type of very smooth road which when combined with a hill is really quite scary.  

Where I grew up in Devon there were some hills that we routinely got off to walk down, even the riding stables did so.  

Some of you who have seen my previous posts may know I took shoes off as a last ditch attempt to save my horse so I don't actually have a choice with this horse.  There are inconveniences to keep him happy and sound and alot of people would think it more trouble than it's worth but one of the biggest pluses for me was that fact that not only does he not slip on the roads but instead of creeping downhill  carefully he strides out and would trot if allowed and even keeps his grip on metal manhole covers.


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## laura_nash (29 July 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I live in a hilly area and my horses are definitely not slippy at all on the roads and were sometimes frightening in shoes.
		
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This is my experience too.  Just this morning I was out with three other horses (all shod).  Mine was bare behind and booted in front.  We strode off down the steepest hill confidently while they picked their way behind us, sliding about and at one point worrying the rider that one was going to end up on its knees.  In warm weather its even worse, the back legs of the shod horses slip practically every five strides.  One horse (not with us today) has road studs and these do help but I worry about the long-term effects.

Maybe it is different road surfaces, or could it be the hilly terrain?  Either way, I'm not eager to go back to the ice rink experience now I know how different it can be.


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## SusieT (29 July 2012)

'Of course I didn't make the time, who cares, but we had a wonderful, safe, clear round.'
'My personal view is to withdraw from competitions where the ground required shoes and studs. '
 similar thread developing with several saying basically you have to make competitive sacrifices to be barefoot at any serious sort of level (making the time being quite often crucial eventing/showjumping-not so much dressage..). And yet still often claiming advanced event horses should also be competing barefoot-contradiction much?

'I don't understand how anyone can say that shod horses don't slip on the road.' I will say I have never ever had a shod horse slip on the road in my personal experience hence why I say that, but have ridden several unshod horses who stumbled and or sought out the verge when hacking on roads with the odd stone or down associated gravel tracks. Including horses who worked on those tracks day in day out, didn't eat grass and should have been 'hardy native types'.


'CPt as usual you are making sweeping assumptions about what I condemn. small areas of turnout-areas of very restricted life being kept all its life on an artifical surface (many amateur owners) with no opportuniuty to have a proper exercise if they desire. 'yarding' horses as a permanent strategy.. you'll be waiting a long time for any apology regarding your attitude to the wobbler-I stand by what I said at the time based on the information available and attitude presented. Perhaps you could stop derailing threads with that?

Paulag-yes, your horse was uncomfortable unshod, you put shoes on, now it is comfortable and sound-why anyone would have issue with you doing that is beyond me...

Angie and ben-your pony may not mind being muzzled, any that I have ever felt like trying the muzzle on for weight loss have hated it, thats three in total. Trying to rub it off, refusing to be caught when it was seen etc. etc. Yes, it has a place but not I feel to allow shoes to be removed. Strip grazing is far more effective as a weight loss programme for me. In my experience as I say, I find that the mental frustration of having a muzzle on is unacceptable to me.


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## tallyho! (29 July 2012)

Paulag said:



			Cptrayes So I see that you've quoted the meta analysis of randomised controlled trials that proved scientific significance for the statements that you've made here. Oh no, wait a minute, you haven't - why bother you have all your lovely proof by vigorous assertion to rely on. You might be ae to bully other people with your aggressiveness, but I'm used to uneducated twerps in my day job. 

And no magnesium oxide is not used to treat type 2 diabetes you silly person. I'd be struck off if I claimed that. 

I didnt critisise barefooters, I would expect serious criticism if I left my mare with sore feet for the sake of thirty quid. 

I doubt there's a great deal of sugar in the feed my horse gets - you are aware that grass and hay is digested down to sugar aren't you? In metabolic syndrome the carbohydrate load is of more relevance than the glycemic index. 

Also high supplements of some minerals block the absorption of others and can be toxic. I specifically said that they are useful where fees is deficient. We get an analysis and a supplement to match deficiencies in the forage on the farm. 

Don't be so damn aggressive if you don't want to look an idiot. Forums are about adult conversations, not bullying other owners. 

Paula
		
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Actually, magnesium is being supplemented in pts with type 2 diabetes. I work with diabetologists and have been in diabetes for 4 years. Below is what I could find in a quick search but the main one is the Brazilian one.

http://www.bmj.sk/2008/10907-04.pdf

http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/27/1/134.full

You may not be prescribing it, but the relationship is very well known and is encouraged as part of a healthy diet. Foods high in magnesium are encouraged by nurses in clinics. I used to helped run them.


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## SusieT (29 July 2012)

'I work with diabetologists and have been in diabetes for 4 years.' What does this mean? Receptionist? I'm not sure jut working in the general area of diabetoligists makes you an expert..


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## cptrayes (29 July 2012)

Paulag said:



			Cptrayes So I see that you've quoted the meta analysis of randomised controlled trials that proved scientific significance for the statements that you've made here. Oh no, wait a minute, you haven't - why bother you have all your lovely proof by vigorous assertion to rely on. You might be ae to bully other people with your aggressiveness, but I'm used to uneducated twerps in my day job.
		
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How very pleasant you are 



Paulag said:



			And no magnesium oxide is not used to treat type 2 diabetes you silly person. I'd be struck off if I claimed that.
		
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I stand to be corrected on oxide being the delivery medium but magnesium most certainly IS being used to treat type II diabetes, I have a friend whose husband has been prescribed it.




Paulag said:



			I doubt there's a great deal of sugar in the feed my horse gets - you are aware that grass and hay is digested down to sugar aren't you?
		
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I'm beginning to doubt your knowledge here. Grass and hay contain sugar in the first place, it's not a product of grass digestion, it's already there.  





Paulag said:



			Don't be so damn aggressive if you don't want to look an idiot. Forums are about adult conversations, not bullying other owners. 

Paula
		
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Ooooooooooh get you sweetheart ! Bad evening are we having, love?

Pots, kettles ?


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## merlinsquest (29 July 2012)

Pale Rider said:



			Shod horses on tarmac are a nightmare, and to be safe even in walk you need road nails. Others may have a different opinion, but that is erroneous, whether they mean to be or not.
Barefoot horses are a lot safer on tarmac a slip very little, in all gaits.
A lot has been said about competition and the need for studded shoes in certain conditions. Of course the right and proper thing to do would be not to compete in theses conditions. This however, is too big an ask for the majority, better to use artificial means like shoes and studs to ensure that the show goes on.
My personal view is to withdraw from competitions where the ground required shoes and studs.
		
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I'm sure all the pros who jumped in the main ring at Hickstead last week will be interested to hear that they should have withdrawn rather than used shoes/studs, I'm sure they will take that brilliant advice on board next time they are jumping in international classes.  These are professional riders at the top of their game, its their living, not a hobby, if the ground is bad then yes, of course they would withdraw like at Kent County a few weekends ago when they ran the Area Trial over only 8 fences & reduced the height to take into account the wet ground, some riders chose not to jump at all.  But in general terms expecting top pros to withdraw rather than use studs is unrealistic.  Your other post about using studs to take the horse beyond its natural ability is just hilarious, as for CPT stating she had a nice jolly round a novice but didn't mind not making the time, thats fine for an amateur rider out for a nice time, a pro needs to get results, keep their rides & make a living.  I don't mean by ragging the horses round, but they need to be competitive.


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## cptrayes (29 July 2012)

SusieT said:



			Most barefooters seem to forget that the mental frustration they impose on their horses is often unforgiveable, and that horses will shut down if not given the oppurtunity to express their natural behaviours-i.e movement in an open space in a herd.
.
		
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SusieT said:



			'CPt as usual you are making sweeping assumptions about what I condemn
		
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Priceless again


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## cptrayes (29 July 2012)

merlinsquest said:



			I'm sure all the pros who jumped in the main ring at Hickstead last week will be interested to hear that they should have withdrawn rather than used shoes/studs, I'm sure they will take that brilliant advice on board next time they are jumping in international classes.  These are professional riders at the top of their game, its their living, not a hobby, if the ground is bad then yes, of course they would withdraw like at Kent County a few weekends ago when they ran the Area Trial over only 8 fences & reduced the height to take into account the wet ground, some riders chose not to jump at all.  But in general terms expecting top pros to withdraw rather than use studs is unrealistic.  Your other post about using studs to take the horse beyond its natural ability is just hilarious, as for CPT stating she had a nice jolly round a novice but didn't mind not making the time, thats fine for an amateur rider out for a nice time, a pro needs to get results, keep their rides & make a living.  I don't mean by ragging the horses round, but they need to be competitive.
		
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No-one has a problem with people using shoes and studs to compete.  We don't expect anyone, least of all pros with a living to earn,  to "do" anything. 

We only have a problem with people who say that they have no choice but to use shoes and studs, when they do.

Which bit of that don't you get?


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## tallyho! (29 July 2012)

SusieT said:



			'I work with diabetologists and have been in diabetes for 4 years.' What does this mean? Receptionist? I'm not sure jut working in the general area of diabetoligists makes you an expert..
		
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General area of diabetologists? That doesn't even make sense. 

A diabetologist is a clinician who specialises in diabetes. They are not areas.

I am an expert. A very well trained one and it is none of your business what I do.


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## WestCoast (29 July 2012)

cptrayes said:



			How very pleasant you are 

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I'm sorry but you were the one that started with the aggressive



cptrayes said:



			I stand to be corrected on oxide being the delivery medium but magnesium most certainly IS being used to treat type II diabetes, I have a friend whose husband has been prescribed it.
		
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Not by a doctor or a dietitian he wasn't - maybe by someone calling themselves a nutritional therapist or some such name with no professional regulation and no danger of being struck off for selling expensive supplements that are at best useless. And tallyho! no trained nurses recommend magnesium supplements - not if they've read the nutritional guidelines by both the American and British Diabetes and Dietetic associations. A qualified diabetes specialist dietitian should be giving dietary advice anyhow. 



cptrayes said:



			I'm beginning to doubt your knowledge here. Grass and hay contain sugar in the first place, it's not a product of grass digestion, it's already there.
		
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Herbivores, unlike humans, can digest the carbohydrate cellulose in plant material down to it's constituent part glucose (the primary dietary sugar). If you don't understand this very basic fact of digestion you most definitely should not be giving advice on nutrition. There's plenty of books out there on the biochemistry of metabolism if you look. 



cptrayes said:



			Ooooooooooh get you sweetheart ! Bad evening are we having, love?

Pots, kettles ?
		
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Nope I just don't like being attacked by someone with no scientific training giving advice that could cause problems. I also don't like being told that I am mistreating my horse because I acted in its best interests. 

Its also common practice for supplement companies to pay people to aggressively push their expensive products online and attack anyone that points out that they are a waste of money. While I doubt this is the case here, they must be challenged at all times. 

Paula


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## tallyho! (29 July 2012)

Paulag said:



			I agree and I never said supplements to mean tablets or pills. It was through diet. In any case, it isn't the only mineral that is beneficial to pts with t2d and a well balanced diet.... But sorry i digress, it's not humans we are discussing.
		
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## merlinsquest (29 July 2012)

cptrayes said:



			No-one has a problem with people using shoes and studs to compete.  We don't expect anyone to "do" anything. 

We only have a problem with people who say that they have no choice but to use shoes and studs, when they do.

Which bit of that don't you get?
		
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I actually can't even be bothered to try & justify why top level pros jumping 1.60m tracks would have no choice but to stud/shoe, I expect it could be something to do with "slow down, take wider turns" as in your earlier post.


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## ester (29 July 2012)

but really, very few people are top level pros so for the majority that isn't really relevant I spose. 

Can we shift the science so I can join in please?.. we aren't really on my international specialism currently


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## tallyho! (29 July 2012)

I'm too tired now. Been a busy day so see you all tomorrow


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## abitodd (29 July 2012)

Paulag said:



			I doubt there's a great deal of sugar in the feed my horse gets - Paula
		
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 Do you not know how much sugar is in your horse's diet?

One thing that strikes me again and again with so many aspects of horse care is how little I know and how little even the experts know. Optimum nutrition is still ongoing research. All I can do is study the latest findings and draw my own conclusions. As so many other posters have said,it is down to personal choice. I want my horses to be as well as they can in 'capitivity' and therefore study their diet with care and consideration.
I would do this regardless of whether they were shod or not.


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## cptrayes (29 July 2012)

Paulag said:



			I'm sorry but you were the one that started with the aggressive
		
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"claptrap" is an OK expression to use for advising people to give yeast to horses to help them cope with grass digestion, is it?  Or warn that high manganese/iron or low copper can cause a horse to develop laminitis due to problems with insulin regulation?  If you do a search you will find the specialist who described exactly what the two inflammation reducing effects of yeast on the gut are together with all the big words you like to know. 


Let's face it, you're just pee'd off with me because I criticized you for running straight to shoe your horse instead of making any effort to find out if you could remove her footiness any other way. And I only did that because you ridiculed those people who do with your very first "claptrap" post.



Paulag said:



			Not by a doctor or a dietitian he wasn't
		
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Well he must have been included in one of the studies that has been/is being run then because the advice was medical.



On the sugar in grass issue, you said that sugar is produced by digestion of grass as if  the grass had no sugar in it in the first place. That was the impression that I was trying to correct.  As far as I am aware, provided the horse is not receiving excess calories over need, the production of sugar from digestion will not cause problems to a normal barefoot horse. But there are many which cannot produce rock-crunching performance in summer on grass too high in the sugar already present in what is coming off the field.




Paulag said:



			Nope I just don't like being attacked by someone with no scientific training giving advice that could cause problems. I also don't like being told that I am mistreating my horse because I acted in its best interests.
		
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Ah, yes, sorry "claptrap" is a well known scientific term, I forgot. 

I did not tell you you mistreated your horse, though it's clear from the vitriol of your replies that you feel that I did, I think you need to question the strength of your reaction. If you are perfectly clear that you did the right thing for your horse why are you so upset?

What I was unhappy about was not the fact that you shod your horse without attempting to find out if you could make her happy some other way but that you ridiculed people who do not do that and people who try to help others who want to  know how to do it. 




Paulag said:



			Its also common practice for supplement companies to pay people to aggressively push their expensive products online and attack anyone that points out that they are a waste of money. While I doubt this is the case here, they must be challenged at all times.
		
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So challenge it, but there is no need to be gratuitously rude when you do it. 
If you read barefoot threads you will find that the majority of advice is that commercial supplements should not be fed, but that a tailored diet of additional specific minerals/yeast/linseed/ etc is likely to achieve a better result. But you have already written all that off as "claptrap" so I doubt you would be interested in reading it.


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## cptrayes (29 July 2012)

merlinsquest said:



			I actually can't even be bothered to try & justify why top level pros jumping 1.60m tracks would have no choice but to stud/shoe, I expect it could be something to do with "slow down, take wider turns" as in your earlier post.
		
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But they DO

They have a choice to do a different job. It isn't one they want to take. Fine. No problem whatsoever.

But there is no man with a gun at their head forcing them to have shoes or studs on their horses. It is a choice.


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## WestCoast (29 July 2012)

Pseudoscientific claptrap is the term used bt scientists for advice that's given with a shallow veneer of something that sounds like science but does not stand up to any scrutiny. Very common in the nutrition therapy business where they make money out of 'prescribing' ie selling supplements to people. 

I don't want a self proclaimed 'specialist' or threads on forums where they attack anyone who disagrees to tell me what to feed my horse, I want scientific studies. I'd love to know the exact metabolic pathway by which yeast reduces but inflammation because it seems to be unknown to science. It's a bloody eukaryotic cell for goodness sake. 

The vitriol has nothing to do with defensiveness and everything to do with the right to challenge this sort of stuff when it happens. I stated an experience and was attacked for it. In no way did I criticize anyone who has their horse barefoot in contrast to your several attacks on me for half not continuing with it. I merely stated that a lot of the stuff stated on nutrition here is clearly claptrap to someone professionally trained in the field.  

Paula


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## Fii (29 July 2012)

Pale Rider said:



			Shod horses on tarmac are a nightmare, and to be safe even in walk you need road nails. Others may have a different opinion, but that is erroneous, whether they mean to be or not.
Barefoot horses are a lot safer on tarmac a slip very little, in all gaits.
A lot has been said about competition and the need for studded shoes in certain conditions. Of course the right and proper thing to do would be not to compete in theses conditions. This however, is too big an ask for the majority, better to use artificial means like shoes and studs to ensure that the show goes on.
My personal view is to withdraw from competitions where the ground required shoes and studs.
		
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I had shoes all round and road studs on our old Shire, we used to do wagon rides on the lanes around here and the small roads are dire, never re-surfaced  only top dressed with gravel, and very hilly, In hot weather they melt, and when they harden again its like an ice rink!  so with a wagon behind he really needed them! Even the unshod ponies slip, i have had the back end go from under me to the point that one nearly sat down!
 My opinion is that a horse without shoes can slip just as easily as one with shoes on some surfaces!


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## Patterdale (29 July 2012)

I don't get the problem here. 

I've had horses a long time and worked professionally with them for years. 

Now, I don't have a degree in the biomechanics of a horses foot, or in nutrition, but I do have life experience. 

I've had many horses shod all their lives, live totally problem free into their thirties. 
I've had ponies with hard feet and left them without shoes to save money and time. 

Now surely shoeing horses doesn't kill them. Neither does barefoot. 

Why don't people just do whatever they want and what works for them.....but wait........WITHOUT forcing their ideas on others and berating/guilt tripping people for not doing it their way??

I will carry on shoeing my horses in work because I believe, and IME, it is more comfortable for them and easier for me to manage. 
I will continue taking their shoes off when they're on holiday as I think it does them good to have a break. 

And whatever anyone else wants to do.....go for it. 

I think it's great to have different views on things but sometimes, really......you can do things more than one way without one side being wrong.


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## WestCoast (29 July 2012)

patterdale said:



			I don't get the problem here. 


I think it's great to have different views on things but sometimes, really......you can do things more than one way without one side being wrong.
		
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Couldn't agree more. 

Paula


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## ester (29 July 2012)

but if you know that the woolly science behind it wouldn't actually stand up to any sort of scrutiny what does it matter if it seems to work for your horse. Its all about choice at the end of the day and sometimes if people waited for proper, peer reviewed trials for everything they would miss out. 

ooh just remembered fab discussion of the Dr who sorted the H. pylori thing on the infinite monkey cage last week. n=1 and a discussion about things you can and can't prove. 

As I said you have a choice, its up to you what you feed your horse and I don't think most  who preport to be pro. nutritionists based with companys know that much either because they have to rely on the already existing science too. 

Just don't mention bifidus digestivum to me  ..


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## merlinsquest (29 July 2012)

cptrayes said:



			But they DO

They have a choice to do a different job. It isn't one they want to take. Fine. No problem whatsoever.

But there is no man with a gun at their head forcing them to have shoes or studs on their horses. It is a choice.
		
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Next time I'm at a big show I'll suggest to them that they should all become cleaners or lollipop men as this is a logical choice rather than putting shoes & studs on, no there is no man with a gun, but there are owners/sponsors expecting results & a return on their £0000000000 of investment. Actually I doubt many of them do have a choice to do something else, as in the majority this is all they know, so I very much doubt it would be "no problem whatsover" to just do something else.  I actually can't wait to talk about this thread between classes next week, some of these statements are hysterical.  Could you just do another job just like that, & would you want to if you had spent years working your way to the top?


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## Pale Rider (29 July 2012)

Owners, sponsors and cash, the cause of quite a lot of bad practice in lots of sports.

Talking about these folk, the professionals at the top of their game is interesting. Judging by the Stressage I watched today, I think the opinion of lots of these professionals isn't worth  a light.
The horse to them is just something to compete on, and that's all.
I watched everyone today after their event and took note of how they treated the horse. Apart from slapping them on the neck at the end, nearly everyone just dismounted and started laughing and talking to those around them. Not even looking at the horse.
WFP ignored his horse completely, Todd, ran up one stirrup and walked off. Zara Phillips was the only one who took any real time for her horse.
Most top professionals don't care about shoeing, barefoot studs or anything else.


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## YorksG (30 July 2012)

Most top professionals don't care about shoeing, barefoot studs or anything else.[/QUOTE]

Is there any chance of you giving any substance to thus statement, other than what you saw on the TV this morning?


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## Pale Rider (30 July 2012)

Nope, lol.


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## YorksG (30 July 2012)

Pale Rider said:



			Nope, lol.
		
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Thought not, this is presumably yet another example of posters making assertions, based on nothing other than their opinions, presented as fact.


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## Herpesas (30 July 2012)

Pale Rider said:



			Shod horses on tarmac are a nightmare, and to be safe even in walk you need road nails. Others may have a different opinion, but that is erroneous, whether they mean to be or not.
		
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Thank you for pointing this out to me   Are all my opinions erroneous or just this one?  I just need to be clear on this so that I can proceed in life without burdening people with yet more incorrect opinions (whether I mean them to be or not).

Also, do you have the monopoly on correct opinions or are they on rotation?  If so, do I get a turn?


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## Pale Rider (30 July 2012)

YorksG said:



			Thought not, this is presumably yet another example of posters making assertions, based on nothing other than their opinions, presented as fact.
		
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Not really an assertion, just an opinion based on witnessing the behaviour exhibited by the particular group subject of the post. It could be argued that based on this behaviour any third party would find it difficult to see any difference in these people getting off their horse to getting off a motorcycle or out of a car. The impression their behaviour gives is that the horse is just another piece of equipment they use to achieve their goal.
I did say 'most' rather than 'all', and gave an example of one person who behaved quite differently in the same circumstances, there were others, but their names escape me at the moment.




Herpesas said:



			Thank you for pointing this out to me   Are all my opinions erroneous or just this one?  I just need to be clear on this so that I can proceed in life without burdening people with yet more incorrect opinions (whether I mean them to be or not).

Also, do you have the monopoly on correct opinions or are they on rotation?  If so, do I get a turn?
		
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To be frank I've no idea what your opinions are, but if you think that shod horses don't slip on tarmac, you're wrong, so changing this one would be a start.
Obviously there is no monopoly on correct opinions, unfortunately there is no rotation, you're either correct or you're not. So if you sharpen up a little, you may proceed in life without burdening people with yet more incorrect opinions (whether you mean them to be or not). (I am joking bye the way,)


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## Patterdale (30 July 2012)

Pale Rider you ASTONISH me. 

When you produce a horse to international level and know many of the people riding at that level, then you can comment with authority. 

I have, and can categorically say that your statements about event riders 'not caring' about their horses is RIDICULOUS, naive, and downright wrong. 

Words fail me........


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## Pale Rider (30 July 2012)

Patterdale, words obviously don't fail you.

Your assumption of who I know and who I don't is quite strange.

A horse I've had a hand in training was being ridden by someone who I have every confidence will do well at these games, only a couple of months ago.

There are others who have been very high profile in the past, I wouldn't trust with a goldfish.

Not everyone at the top of their game where animals are concerned, have the animal's best interest at heart, just look st the kennel club.


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## WestCoast (30 July 2012)

ester said:



			but if you know that the woolly science behind it wouldn't actually stand up to any sort of scrutiny what does it matter if it seems to work for your horse.  ..
		
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I completely agree with this - hell I'm the first one to reach for the echinacea when I get a cold. 

However it is important to ensure no harm is done - which s why I tend to warn agains massive supplements of single minerals as they can block absorption of other minerals, cause stomach upsets or very occasionally be toxic if used by someone who feels more is better. 

Also it is not an alternative to good vetinary care - they had to make it illegal to claim to be able to cure cancer in the end die to

Paula


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## merlinsquest (30 July 2012)

patterdale said:



			Pale Rider you ASTONISH me. 

When you produce a horse to international level and know many of the people riding at that level, then you can comment with authority. 

I have, and can categorically say that your statements about event riders 'not caring' about their horses is RIDICULOUS, naive, and downright wrong. 

Words fail me........
		
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Patterdale I completely agree, & would be interested to know if the horse Pale Rider has produced to Olympic level is shod, does it wear studs?.....

Last week at Hickstead my friend & coach won a big class in the main ring, horsie got hugs & pats & polos, was walked off by the rider & then we untacked, washed off, gave a drink etc together.  I came round the back of the lorry & found the rider with his arms round horses neck hugging him, it was one of those real special moments, a little snap shot into how much the horses mean when they have a real partnership at this level.  Oh, we did also remember to take his studs out...... Can't wait to tell him how uncaring he is, & how he's just in it for the money, yeah right working sometimes a 16 hour day, lorry loads of horses to shows in the pouring rain, teaching people of all levels in all weathers, I think some people really have no idea....


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## WestCoast (30 July 2012)

ester said:



			but if you know that the woolly science behind it wouldn't actually stand up to any sort of scrutiny what does it matter if it seems to work for your horse.  ..
		
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I completely agree with this - hell I'm the first one to reach for the echinacea when I get a cold. 

However it is important to ensure no harm is done - which s why I tend to warn agains massive supplements of single minerals as they can block absorption of other minerals, cause stomach upsets or very occasionally be toxic if used by someone who feels more is better. 

Also it is not an alternative to good vetinary care - they had to make it illegal to claim to be able to cure cancer due to charlatans telling people not to take their chemotherapy and use diet instead. 

So it's fine to suggest someone tries a cheap, balanced supplement at around required amounts to see it their horse's hooves improve on it, it's not acceptable to tell a person with a horse with sore feet to do this rather than get them seen by a vet/qualified farrier as appropriate. In fact I suspect it's illegal for the owner to not get proper advice. 

So my horse was clearly uncomfortable on stony ground, she had a vet check her feet and give the ok and then a farrier who advised that her low sole was hurting when she stood on a stone and lifting it up with a shoe would help. I followed advice and she's hugely better. This doesn't mean I can't take them off in the future, but for now it has dealt with the pain. Yes the previous owner didn't feel the need, but they also didn't feel the need to get her teeth checked and sharp molars had left her with lacerations on her tongue. In time with enough coarse forage the sharp edges would have gone, but I chose vetinary care first. Also she would need to be kept away from the nice soft grass in the field and I'm going for the benefits of turnout/rasping rather than stabling/fixing with feed. 

Paula


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## tallyho! (30 July 2012)

With all due respect to everyone, quite a lot of claptrap saved my horse.

That makes it an anecdotal case, so perhaps I should stop quoting it. However, since approved clinical evidence did not help my horse, I resorted to well researched, but unapproved claptrap.

Glad I did as said horse back competing.

Not all claptrap is created equal I say. You have to use your claptrapometer to help you wade through and find the useful claptrap.

Bring on the claptrap I say. But take it with a pinch of salt... Literally lol


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## Patterdale (30 July 2012)

PR - my assumption is based on your childish and naive comments. I have not changed my assumption.*

Reading your other posts you seem like a very combative person....So I think I will just leave you to your silly thoughts.*

And 'had a hand in training' is very vague and covers a multitude of sins.....did you hold it for the farrier?? Oh, but I forgot....people who care about their horses don't GET the farrier....pffft

It really, really offends me that you can make this silly assumption about people who ride at top level. They 'don't care' about the horses??

Rubbish.*


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## cptrayes (30 July 2012)

merlinsquest said:



			Next time I'm at a big show I'll suggest to them that they should all become cleaners or lollipop men as this is a logical choice rather than putting shoes & studs on, no there is no man with a gun, but there are owners/sponsors expecting results & a return on their £0000000000 of investment. Actually I doubt many of them do have a choice to do something else, as in the majority this is all they know, so I very much doubt it would be "no problem whatsover" to just do something else.  I actually can't wait to talk about this thread between classes next week, some of these statements are hysterical.  Could you just do another job just like that, & would you want to if you had spent years working your way to the top?
		
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Your argument is ridiculous and if you are a teacher I hope they don't all have your inability to argue sensibly. No-one has ever said that you or any of these people should not shoe. All I have done is point out that there is always a choice.

They do have a choice. There is always a choice. Unemployment would be a choice. No one expects them to make that choice, and your continuing discussion as if someone has said that they do is daft.

They are not made to shoe and stud. They choose to. The fact that they choose to is no problem to any of us.


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## tallyho! (30 July 2012)

merlinsquest said:



			Next time I'm at a big show I'll suggest to them that they should all become cleaners or lollipop men as this is a logical choice rather than putting shoes & studs on, no there is no man with a gun, but there are owners/sponsors expecting results & a return on their £0000000000 of investment. Actually I doubt many of them do have a choice to do something else, as in the majority this is all they know, so I very much doubt it would be "no problem whatsover" to just do something else.  I actually can't wait to talk about this thread between classes next week, some of these statements are hysterical.  Could you just do another job just like that, & would you want to if you had spent years working your way to the top?
		
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No choice? Crikey, how do you get yourself in these situations? 

I honestly don't think anyone is having a go at you for your choice of lifestyle. If that's what you want to do, you should keep going. People do work hard to get where they want to be as I am sure you and your friends have.

People's opinions are shaped by their experiences. You are shaped by yours.

What's wrong with being a cleaner btw?


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## cptrayes (30 July 2012)

Paulag said:



			I completely agree with this - hell I'm the first one to reach for the echinacea when I get a cold. 

Click to expand...

In spite of the fact that the last research I saw reported about it concluded that it extends the symptoms of a cold by a measureable amount of time  ?




Paulag said:



			I'm going for the benefits of turnout/rasping {I think you mean nailing on steel} rather than stabling/fixing with feed.
		
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I am intrigued by the fact that instead of the words nailing on shoes you chose to say "rasping" ?  I continue to get the impression that you actually feel bad at some level about having shod your horse. I don't think you should, personally, one of the arguments I find strongest is the ability to keep the horse turned out 24/7 particularly by people with busy lives who have a living to earn.


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## merlinsquest (30 July 2012)

tallyho! said:



			No choice? Crikey, how do you get yourself in these situations? 

I honestly don't think anyone is having a go at you for your choice of lifestyle. If that's what you want to do, you should keep going. People do work hard to get where they want to be as I am sure you and your friends have.

People's opinions are shaped by their experiences. You are shaped by yours.

What's wrong with being a cleaner btw?
		
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Nothing wrong with being a cleaner, I have been one to pay for my show jumping, lol, this thread is actually making me really laugh now.  BTW CPT the thought of myself being a teacher is quite scary, poor kids is all I can say!  I accept that they CHOOSE to stud, but I also understand why they CHOOSE to do it, I also accept that it is unlikely they will choose unemployment over show jumping, & yes Tallyho thats a very valid point that peoples opinions are shaped by their experiences & riders at top level have plenty...


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## WestCoast (30 July 2012)

cptrayes said:



			In spite of the fact that the last research I saw reported about it concluded that it extends the symptoms of a cold by a measureable amount of time  ?
		
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Really, seriously? Have I missed something here and you are winding me up here (never been so good at spotting that)? Have you read the Cochrane report? 
http://summaries.cochrane.org/CD000530/echinacea-for-preventing-and-treating-the-common-cold 



cptrayes said:



			I am intrigued by the fact that instead of the words nailing on shoes you chose to say "rasping" ?  I continue to get the impression that you actually feel bad at some level about having shod your horse. I don't think you should, personally, one of the arguments I find strongest is the ability to keep the horse turned out 24/7 particularly by people with busy lives who have a living to earn.
		
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OK I'm bored now. You aren't making any sense. I was using an example of where vetinary care in a different situation (overgrown molars)  was appropriate rather than changing feed - her teeth were rasped, her shoes are nailed on. 

Right talking of stopping feeding, I'm off now.


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## Pale Rider (30 July 2012)

Patty, you really are being the naive one here with your assertion that if you are at the top  level then you will necessarily be kind or compassionate or caring about the horse they compete with. Of course some people are, but some are not. Look at Rolkur, Anky van Grunsven, thought this was ok, was she not at the top of her game.
What about soreing horses, some think this is a valid way to treat a horse.
I am a realist where competition is concerned. 
Why do you think drug use is so rife, in sport.

No, you won't find me holding a lead rope for a farrier, I have done in the past, and now I am sorry I did, and feel guilty about it.


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## Patterdale (30 July 2012)

And your assertion that if you are at top level then you don't care about your horse is NOT naive?

Oh of course not.....

I'd love to stay and hear more of your illuminating and enlightening views on top level competition.....but sadly I have to go and drug/beat my horses. Being someone who has competed at high level and also shoes and studs, this is obviously what I spend my days doing.


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## Goldenstar (30 July 2012)

PR you are way off the mark about pro's and caring for their horses just like happy hackers race horse owners and lower level competitive riders you will find a range of emotional attachment within a group of pro's some are besotted with their horses others less so but in my experiance (first hand ) the care of horses is very good. 
Modern competition horses are for the most part bred for the job and the vast majority enjoy their work.


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## tallyho! (30 July 2012)

merlinsquest said:



			I accept that they CHOOSE to stud, but I also understand why they CHOOSE to do it, I also accept that it is unlikely they will choose unemployment over show jumping, & yes Tallyho thats a very valid point that peoples opinions are shaped by their experiences & riders at top level have plenty...
		
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I think everyone here, including myself, is of the understanding that competitors CHOOSE to stud and are aware of WHY. In the past we have done the very same thing so you telling us this is rather like repeating what we have been saying for a long time.

I don't CHOOSE to do it anymore. I don't think any differently of friends who carry on CHOOSING to do so. I CHOOSE where I ride and when I ride. They CHOOSE which studs to use. 

Surely, that's not worth falling out over.


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## tallyho! (30 July 2012)

Has the rudometer been fixed yet


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## TwoStroke (30 July 2012)

tallyho! said:



			Has the rudometer been fixed yet 

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Just mended it, and put it next to the claptrapometer!


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## Goldenstar (30 July 2012)

I am monitoring the rudometer however I am off to am Olympic XC party shortly unfortunatly the technology for the claprapometer is much more complicated one persons claptrap is another's interesting idea.


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## tallyho! (30 July 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			I am monitoring the rudometer however I am off to am Olympic XC party shortly unfortunatly the technology for the claprapometer is much more complicated one persons claptrap is another's interesting idea.
		
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Tsk... you just cant get the staff these days


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## Goldenstar (30 July 2012)

tallyho! said:



			Tsk... you just cant get the staff these days 



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I know but I am really looking forward to this .


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## baran (30 July 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Horses in shoes seem to develop the long toes, weak heels and toe first landing that are the main prerequisites of long term hoof lameness much more easily than unshod horses.  In addition, the vast majority of horses which are in shoes when this happens are brought sound in a few months by removal of the shoes (plus good feeding and a proper work program), leading to the strong conclusion that the shoes were causing or perpetuating the problem. 

I know of three unshod horses with caudal hoof lameness. All were caused by inadequate stimulation of the back half of the foot leading to a frog which was not in ground contact, and a toe first landing.
		
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Confused by this. First pony I owned had frogs which were not in ground contact and she had never been shod in her life. Nor was she lame.

Did anyone answer my question about how you manage lifestyle with no grass grazing? Can't be bothered reading through all this thread again.


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## soloequestrian (30 July 2012)

The results of my poll which was conducted in another thread but inspired by this one (especially the question about why this subject raises such passion):

Do nailed-on shoes damage horses feet?

No, a well shod hoof suffers no damage from the shoes    Answers 14, Percentage 31.82% 
Yes, but the benefits gained outweigh the damage (shod all year)    Answers 14 Percentage 31.82% 
Yes, I only shoe for part of the year to minimise damage   Answers 16 Percentage 36.36% 

I wonder if this could be part of the answer?  As a dedicated barefooter, I have no doubt that shoes are very bad for feet.  I still understand why people shoe in certain circumstances, where the benefits might outweigh the costs.
One third of the people who answered here however believe that shoes do not damage feet at all.  If they are coming from such a different place in the hymn book, would that explain why they get upset?


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## cptrayes (30 July 2012)

baran said:



			Confused by this. First pony I owned had frogs which were not in ground contact and she had never been shod in her life. Nor was she lame.

Did anyone answer my question about how you manage lifestyle with no grass grazing? Can't be bothered reading through all this thread again.
		
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Many horses, and especially ponies, cope fine with no frog contact. 

But time and again the horses at Rockley come sound only after the frog is meaty enough to be weight bearing, at which point they also go heel first landing and stop causing themselves soft tissue damage through a faulty action.

The only barefoot horse which I have known get a navicular diagnosis was fine until lack of work/movement caused his frog to shrink, and he was fine again as soon as it beefed back up and his hoof walls wore down.

Lots of people keep shod laminitis risk horses and ponies on dry lots with no grass. Managing a barefoot horse with no grass is done exactly the same  same way. Track systems allow a very low grass option with a lot more space for movement. And some people have gone to the expense and trouble of laying a grassless track, which is one of the enormous advantages that Rockley has in rehabbing their foot lame patients, an awesome track system.


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## thatsmygirl (30 July 2012)

Tallyho a lot off " claptrap" is also saving my horse, he trotted down the field to me this morning sound. He would be dead by now if it was for all this claptrap. He's not had 1 lame stride since his shoes came off. And I use to be the biggest anti around. Maybe a few more people need to be in the situation where they face pts or try barefoot and a trimmer. Which as a total anti barefoot I was faced against. 
I'm totally shocked by the changes and his way off moving in such a short time. 
It really has opened my eyes and I'm glade iv managed to open my eyes, widen my views and look at something which I really didn't believe in, my lad has a good life ahead off him now thanks to my trimmer and barefoot.
He's a ex racer as well. Tbs can do it.


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## cptrayes (30 July 2012)

Paulag said:



			Really, seriously? Have I missed something here and you are winding me up here (never been so good at spotting that)? Have you read the Cochrane report? 
http://summaries.cochrane.org/CD000530/echinacea-for-preventing-and-treating-the-common-cold

Click to expand...

No I'm not winding you up, though it was probably reported in the Mail. There really doesn't appear to be any serious evidence that Echinacea does diddly squat though, and has some bad side effects for some people too.  I will read your thing and see what it says.

http://sciencebasedpharmacy.wordpress.com/2010/12/28/echinacea-for-colds-and-the-flu/



Paulag said:



			OK I'm bored now. You aren't making any sense. I was using an example of where vetinary care in a different situation (overgrown molars)  was appropriate rather than changing feed - her teeth were rasped, her shoes are nailed on.
		
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Apologies, I misread your comment "rasping" as being about feet not teeth.  I don't see the relevance of comparing rasping teeth to shoeing. Whilst I can see that it shows that your horse didn't have the best owner, as a procedure it has no downsides, no viable alternative and is a no-brainer. Shoeing, on the other hand, at the very least level of harm,  provides 5-7 holes in each foot that are wonderful breeding grounds for opportunistic anaerobic bacteria.


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## MerrySherryRider (30 July 2012)

Perhaps some of you barefoot guru's would like to offer your services to the Olympic equestrians. They've obviously crippled their horses by making them wear shoes. Some of the horses are now veterans, so they must need your expertise after a life time in shoes.
 Do them a favour and pop over with your hoof boots and DIY hay analysis testing kits.

Some of the 'facts' and assertions on this thread are so funny, its in the realms of the absurd now. 
 Who says shod horses slip on roads ? My experience is that a fit horse carrying itself correctly manages similarly shod or unshod.


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## pines of rome (30 July 2012)

thatsmygirl said:



			Tallyho a lot off " claptrap" is also saving my horse, he trotted down the field to me this morning sound. He would be dead by now if it was for all this claptrap. He's not had 1 lame stride since his shoes came off. And I use to be the biggest anti around. Maybe a few more people need to be in the situation where they face pts or try barefoot and a trimmer. Which as a total anti barefoot I was faced against. 
I'm totally shocked by the changes and his way off moving in such a short time. 
It really has opened my eyes and I'm glade iv managed to open my eyes, widen my views and look at something which I really didn't believe in, my lad has a good life ahead off him now thanks to my trimmer and barefoot.
He's a ex racer as well. Tbs can do it.
		
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I totally agree with this, also have an ex racer who is getting better daily barefoot,  I think people have to be in our position to really appreciate the changes it can make!


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## Herpesas (30 July 2012)

Pale Rider said:



			To be frank I've no idea what your opinions are, but if you think that shod horses don't slip on tarmac, you're wrong, so changing this one would be a start.
		
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Of course shod horses slip on tarmac (this is not opinion, this is fact) but you said,
"Shod horses on tarmac are a nightmare, and to be safe even in walk you need road nails."
This is an opinion and I disagree with it. I haven't ever found shod horses a 'nightmare' on tarmac and I don't believe you need road nails/studs to safely walk or even trot!   The only roads Hoss has occasional trouble with are steep /smooth ones when I usually get off anyway (I hate riding downhill, something to do with peering over the edge into an abyss!). You should assess the condition of the road and ride accordingly same as you would when driving a car.

I used to ride a horse in rubber stick on shoes and they were the worst for slipping, especially in the wet (Disclaimer:  This is my opinion and other people's experience may differ ).


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## TwoStroke (30 July 2012)

Horserider, i'm afraid both the rudemeter and the claptrapometer are bleeping from your post


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## MerrySherryRider (30 July 2012)

TwoStroke said:



			Horserider, i'm afraid both the rudemeter and the claptrapometer are bleeping from your post 

Click to expand...

Oh, surely not. No claptrap (great word BTW) and a total lack of airy fairy BS.


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## tallyho! (30 July 2012)

horserider said:



			Perhaps some of you barefoot guru's would like to offer your services to the Olympic equestrians. They've obviously crippled their horses by making them wear shoes. Some of the horses are now veterans, so they must need your expertise after a life time in shoes.
 Do them a favour and pop over with your hoof boots and DIY hay analysis testing kits.

Some of the 'facts' and assertions on this thread are so funny, its in the realms of the absurd now. 
 Who says shod horses slip on roads ? My experience is that a fit horse carrying itself correctly manages similarly shod or unshod.
		
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Not as absurd as you are 

Ooh! Did I just break the rude meter again?! Sorreeeeee!


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## tallyho! (30 July 2012)

I actually wanted to know if any horses competed at Olympic level barefoot and apart from the well known Emma Hindle, sadly no, I can't find anyone this year. One day...

Anyway, the title I found striking although it has nothing to do with yours truly!!

http://eventingakhaltekes.blogspot.co.uk/2011/04/tazym-update-akhal-teke-sport-horse.html

P.s. not trying to prove anything here, found it funny there's a barefoot blog with tallyho in it


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## lazybee (30 July 2012)

To some people on this thread as it's now descended into farce.........


You are motivated by the desire to defend your ego to the bitter end in the vain attempt to get the last word, by dissecting threads line by line as you do, shows you have some kind of problem. Do you see open discussion as a threat to your stance and beliefs? You refuse to see others' points of view as being valid; and don't for one minute accept what they have to say. Narcissist springs to mind.


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## ILuvCowparsely (30 July 2012)

YorksG said:



			Thought not, this is presumably yet another example of posters making assertions, based on nothing other than their opinions, presented as fact.
		
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^5  Like


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## tallyho! (30 July 2012)

So what lazybee... it's something to do on a monday  you'll never stop people arguing about stuff that matters to them. As far as I can see it's as open as a discussion gets on t'internet!

Calling people narcissistic with some sort of problem is a new rude meter record though. Good going!


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## Hollycatt (30 July 2012)

tallyho! said:



			I actually wanted to know if any horses competed at Olympic level barefoot and apart from the well known Emma Hindle, sadly no, I can't find anyone this year. One day...
		
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The Spanish Riding School don't compete at Olympic level but I think its fair to say the horses are trained to a similar level. They also work well into their 20's which is a testament to their soundness and ability to stand up to hard work.

Sadly a lot of dressage riders think a horse must be shod. When I sold my 4 year old the first thing they did was shoe her even though she was hacking over rough ground with no problems   She has a very loving home and is doing well and is happy though and for me that is the main thing


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## tallyho! (30 July 2012)

As long as they are well shod, they will continue to perform well.

There was that thread on here not that long ago about what "well shod" is... 

Here you are... http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=513676


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## cptrayes (30 July 2012)

horserider said:



			Perhaps some of you barefoot guru's would like to offer your services to the Olympic equestrians.
		
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No thanks, I'm not good enough to give them advice on training and I have no desire to interfere with their wish to shoe. I will respond if they ask, just as per normal. 



horserider said:



			They've obviously crippled their horses by making them wear shoes.
		
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Not most of them, but have you seen Totilas' feet?  Have you seen how very unlevel his front legs are in extended trot. He's 10, I think?

Have you looked at the bizarre rocker shoes some of the dressage horses are now fitted with? Have you been to a high level competition and seen just how many of them are having to be shod in bars? Do you know that joint injections are routine in  high level horses? 




horserider said:



			Do them a favour and pop over with your hoof boots and DIY hay analysis testing kits.
		
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If they asked, I would, willingly give them my time for free, as I do anyone else who asks for my help.  Until they ask, or try to tell me on here that I don't know what I am talking about, then I won't interfere. Just like normal.




horserider said:



			Who says shod horses slip on roads ?
		
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I do and so do a lot of other people. There was even a petition by riders of shod horses against the laying of SMA, wasn't there?

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/397/67636.html



horserider said:



			My experience is that a fit horse carrying itself correctly manages similarly shod or unshod.
		
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Try riding on smooth tarmac on a 1 in 4 slope.


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## cptrayes (30 July 2012)

lazybee said:



			To some people on this thread as it's now descended into farce.........


You are motivated by the desire to defend your ego to the bitter end in the vain attempt to get the last word, by dissecting threads line by line as you do, shows you have some kind of problem. Do you see open discussion as a threat to your stance and beliefs? You refuse to see others' points of view as being valid; and don't for one minute accept what they have to say. Narcissist springs to mind.
		
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And what was your own motivation in making this post  ?


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## Hollycatt (30 July 2012)

In the past I have had some horses shod and some unshod Tallyho and I will continue to do so when I start to ride again I expect.  When I sent the same filly for backing they shod her and I agreed as I thought it was actually an important part of her education to be calm and easy to shoe. 6 weeks later when she came home I took her shoes off. 

One of the optional courses as part of my vet degree is shoeing and trimming so I will be interested to see what they say.  I know it can be easy to go with the attitude 'if it isn't broke don't fix it' as regards putting shoes on a horse in work, but my own personality is more questioning and open to trying new things   I don't like shoes myself, but if I needed them having explored the alternatives, I would use them and as a vet in future I will explain the options so clients can make an informed choice of their own and I will support them in that whether it is shoes or no shoes


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## tallyho! (30 July 2012)

Hollycatt said:



			In the past I have had some horses shod and some unshod Tallyho and I will continue to do so when I start to ride again I expect.  When I sent the same filly for backing they shod her and I agreed as I thought it was actually an important part of her education to be calm and easy to shoe. 6 weeks later when she came home I took her shoes off. 

One of the optional courses as part of my vet degree is shoeing and trimming so I will be interested to see what they say.  I know it can be easy to go with the attitude 'if it isn't broke don't fix it' as regards putting shoes on a horse in work, but my own personality is more questioning and open to trying new things   I don't like shoes myself, but if I needed them having explored the alternatives, I would use them and as a vet in future I will explain the options so clients can make an informed choice of their own and I will support them in that whether it is shoes or no shoes 

Click to expand...

Ooh yes, please do let me know what the course entails. It really will be very interesting to see what the academics include in the course material. Not least to see if any new research is being taken on board or being explored at least. 

Will you be a vet near me????


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## Hollycatt (30 July 2012)

I am going to the dark side of small animal work   - having thought I'd be a horse vet for the last 40 years 

I have to take 2 years out of the degree to work and save as I can't afford my tuition fees and banks will not lend for a second degree   However I will be in touch with my friends so if there are any good course materials I can pass them on


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## Arizahn (30 July 2012)

I let my OH read this thread as thought he could learn about the shoes versus barefoot debate. It seems he is rather anti-shoe to judge by the rant he went off on!

Oh, and you lot scare him


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## tallyho! (30 July 2012)

Well someone's got to pull the balls off cats and dogs I suppose . I did some WE at a vets because I thought I'd like to be one at school... I observed a cataract removal from a boxer bitch at the aneasthetists end of the table and now I can't eat lychees...  

Be good to see if any of the results of barefoot studies at various other universities, particularly America, are discussed.


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## MerrySherryRider (30 July 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Try riding on smooth tarmac on a 1 in 4 slope.
		
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Yep, done that and ridden the Black mountains in rain. 

Do find SMA slippery for everyone .though. Managed to get local council to resurface a stretch of newly laid SMA because it was so slippery to my both unshod cob and young WB shod with fronts only. Think you'll also find that cyclists, motorists and motorbikers are equally opposed to SMA, so no this 'fact' is a bit of a desperate White elephant on behalf of Barefoot groupies.

 Your random observations re performance horses are another desperate attempt to clutch at straws. How many athletes do you know who do not have aches and pains ? At top level, we're seeing so many horses at the top of their game in their late teens. To compare them with a horse that tootles round the menege or ambles down the local lanes when the sun shines, -or does a couple of hours hunting (and standing around) once or twice a year is frankly laughable.
 You barefooters shout about 'performance trims' for your 'performance ' horses and though can't  compare their work load to that that we're seeing at Greenwich, criticize them for shoeing. Better a shod hoof than a broken leg.

Perhaps BT trimmers should use the Irish bog donkey as a role model instead of mustangs ? 
Lots of road work and grazes on lush Irish grass and damp ground. No muzzling needed. Just work.


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## tallyho! (30 July 2012)

Maybe they should


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## Hollycatt (30 July 2012)

tallyho! said:



			Well someone's got to pull the balls off cats and dogs I suppose . I did some WE at a vets because I thought I'd like to be one at school... I observed a cataract removal from a boxer bitch at the aneasthetists end of the table and now I can't eat lychees...  

Be good to see if any of the results of barefoot studies at various other universities, particularly America, are discussed.
		
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He he - I like small animal work for the variety. Someone brought a pidgeon in the other day as they saw it fly into a wall and it was stunned. You never know what will happen next! 

As part of my degree I get to write a thesis. SO many topics but something like barefoot performance with secondment to Spanish Riding School I thought may be interesting 

I agree horseandrider that a lot of people boast about their their 'high performance' barefoot horse competing successfully. Often at a lower level (badly) and I also find this dissapointing. On the other hand as kids we all used to fly round the local intermediate XC tracks barefoot on our ponies with no problems  and this you tend not to hear about or see these days   Some people shoe un-necessarily for want of a good farrier. I know a stud that used to shoe their SJ youngsters (yearlings up). My two year old - same age, same feed, no shoes, but perfect feet - as different farrier. The farrier was crap and the feet very long so yes they did crack badly in summer - they needed a good trim not shoes. 

I don't think one solution fits everyone. What I do believe is that people should be given the options and make their own choice for the solution that suits them, their horse and their curcumstances. A happy, healthy horse is what we all want at the end of the day surely?


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## tallyho! (30 July 2012)

Well, that's a creative way to get into the SRS!! Wish I'd thought of that...


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## Hollycatt (30 July 2012)

tallyho! said:



			Well, that's a creative way to get into the SRS!! Wish I'd thought of that... 

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lol - one day................................


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## cptrayes (30 July 2012)

horserider said:



			At top level, we're seeing so many horses at the top of their game in their late teens.
		
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But you don't see the failures, do you?

A statistic quoted by Phillipe Karl in a book I am reading at the moment says that in 1978, the average number of years in work of an insured competitive dressage horse before it had to stop was 5.5  In other words, the average dressage horse did not reach 10 before it was knackered. There are people who believe that it is now worse.




horserider said:



			You barefooters  ....... can't  compare their work load to that that we're seeing at Greenwich ..... criticize them for shoeing.
		
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I'll bet my hunter's workload is directly comparable, footwise, or greater.  Have you looked at the mileages the Rockley hunters clock up?  It's on the blog.   

And we are NOT criticising them for shoeing. How many more times does this have to be said before you stop misquoting?




horserider said:



			Perhaps BT trimmers should use the Irish bog donkey as a role model instead of mustangs ?
		
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Most of us don't use mustangs to compare, we use other hardworking barefoot horses.




horserider said:



			Lots of road work and grazes on lush Irish grass and damp ground. No muzzling needed. Just work.
		
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I assume that you mean by "bog donkey" the standard Irish IDx? I think you'll find that most of those are shod at 3 and hunted. Not an example I would wish to follow thanks 

There was a 5 stage vetting of an Irish horse, in Ireland, featured in one of the monthly mags once. It failed on the trot up with sore feet. The vet told them to shoe it and revetted it and passed it, so there are bog donkeys and bog donkeys, just as there are in the UK.


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## Pale Rider (30 July 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			PR you are way off the mark about pro's and caring for their horses just like happy hackers race horse owners and lower level competitive riders you will find a range of emotional attachment within a group of pro's some are besotted with their horses others less so but in my experiance (first hand ) the care of horses is very good. 
Modern competition horses are for the most part bred for the job and the vast majority enjoy their work.
		
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You've made a valid point here, what I was trying to point out is, that there is a range of emotional attachment. Unfortunately one or two got a bit over emotional about it,

Different though to confuse emotional attachment and care. Two very different things.


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## Goldenstar (30 July 2012)

There will be some sore feet ar greenwich tonight.


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## Goldenstar (30 July 2012)

Pale Rider said:



			You've made a valid point here, what I was trying to point out is, that there is a range of emotional attachment. Unfortunately one or two got a bit over emotional about it,

Different though to confuse emotional attachment and care. Two very different things.

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Emotional attachment and care are different a horse is quite happy without a humans emotional attachment as long as its care is good and it's happy in its enviroment and with its work.
Amazing coverage from XC today amazing equine athletes .


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## Pale Rider (30 July 2012)

Only managed to catch a little, but really enjoyed what I saw.


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## MerrySherryRider (30 July 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I assume that you mean by "bog donkey" the standard Irish IDx? I think you'll find that most of those are shod at 3 and hunted. Not an example I would wish to follow thanks 

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No, I mean donkey as in donkey. You know, those long eared equines who in my life time carried the peat from the bog and tolled tirelessly on Irish farms like my grandfather's.
 Would have thought they would have been a more appropriate role model for your barefooty trim working in such an environment as opposed to feral Mustangs roaming the American plains. Not quite as trendy though.


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## cptrayes (30 July 2012)

horserider said:



			No, I mean donkey as in donkey. You know, those long eared equines who in my life time carried the peat from the bog and tolled tirelessly on Irish farms like my grandfather's.
 Would have thought they would have been a more appropriate role model for your barefooty trim working in such an environment as opposed to feral Mustangs roaming the American plains. Not quite as trendy though.
		
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I don't think feral mustangs are a good role model myself, but donkeys are even worse


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## MerrySherryRider (30 July 2012)

Poor donkeys, so unappreciated.  Noble beasts.


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## tallyho! (30 July 2012)

Horserider, I hope you can understand that you need to stop being so erm.. What's the word... Pointy finger and possibly a bit condescending about "you barefooters". I am guilty of also being rude.

Truth is "you barefooters" just want to coexist alongside shod horses because one solution does not fit all. 

If ppl post on forums asking advice about a barefoot horse or a navicular case, yes, a "you barefooter" is going to reply. And vice-versa. You don't have to wade in and start the pointy finger wagging though. 

Barefoot and shod will coexist into the future and that is an excellent thing for horses! Let's discuss both but drop the name calling.

Please???


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## Arizahn (30 July 2012)

I like donkeys...and mules!


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## MerrySherryRider (30 July 2012)

tallyho! said:



			Horserider, I hope you can understand that you need to stop being so erm.. What's the word... Pointy finger and possibly a bit condescending about "you barefooters". I am guilty of also being rude.

Truth is "you barefooters" just want to coexist alongside shod horses because one solution does not fit all. 

If ppl post on forums asking advice about a barefoot horse or a navicular case, yes, a "you barefooter" is going to reply. And vice-versa. You don't have to wade in and start the pointy finger wagging though. 

Barefoot and shod will coexist into the future and that is an excellent thing for horses! Let's discuss both but drop the name calling.

Please??? 

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Erm, but I am an unshodderer and not quite sure what point you're trying to make, other than you don't like anyone who doesn't toe the barefoot mantra line unquestioningly. 

 Debate is good. It is not the sole preserve of those who agree with you (generic usage*), that wouldn't be a debate, would it ? Maybe you've (generic usage*) forgotten the first post and what the thread is actually about.
 As for name calling ?? Is barefooter a term of abuse now ? Sorry, what would the non metal foot supporters like to be called ?

*NB. No one, animal, vegetable or mineral in particular was named or referred to in this post.


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## tallyho! (30 July 2012)

horserider said:



			Erm, but I am an unshodderer and not quite sure what point you're trying to make, other than you don't like anyone who doesn't toe the barefoot mantra line unquestioningly. .
		
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No! No! No! No! No!

I don't care what line you toe to be frank or anyone else. Just stop being so mean and making stuff up about people you don't know! 

I give up. You clearly can't read  or be nice.


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## YorksG (30 July 2012)

tallyho! said:



			No! No! No! No! No!

I don't care what line you toe to be frank or anyone else. Just stop being so mean and making stuff up about people you don't know! 

I give up. You clearly can't read  or be nice.
		
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Pot, kettle, black and yes this time this is aimed at you Tallyho


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## tallyho! (30 July 2012)

YorksG said:



			Pot, kettle, black and yes this time this is aimed at you Tallyho
		
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Yes ok yorksg, I apologised for it and actually I can see that I havent been nice either. But I am trying to be whilst also having a discussion. I actually want to try and have a decent discussion with horse rider and everyone else but all that seems to happen is I get patronised.

Well never mind. Maybe not this time.


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## YorksG (30 July 2012)

tallyho! said:



			Yes ok yorksg, I apologised for it and actually I can see that I havent been nice either. But I am trying to be whilst also having a discussion. I actually want to try and have a decent discussion with horse rider and everyone else but all that seems to happen is I get patronised.

Well never mind. Maybe not this time.
		
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Well I certainly prefer to debate with people who are not rude, who read what is written and not assume that all posts are directed at them.


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## tallyho! (30 July 2012)

I wasn't trying to be rude  and actually horseriders posts are usually directed at me


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## MerrySherryRider (30 July 2012)

tallyho! said:



			I wasn't trying to be rude  and actually horseriders posts are usually directed at me 

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Actually not so, I can never remember which side of the debate you're on, should probably pay more attention to posters names.  
I do know Pale Rider's viewpoint though, he posts some classics !

I probably quote you, TH, when you say something that prompts response.


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## tallyho! (30 July 2012)

Fair enough, I have posted some clangers in my time 

I am on the side of fair debate... I sit further on the dark side (experience driven mainly) but feel shoes are useful things in the right hands. Though I usually get carried away sadly. I am really trying not to though so sorry if I was rude to you, or anyone else for that matter. I genuinely mean that


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## Fii (30 July 2012)

My god is this still going on, havent you all run out of things to argue about yet!


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## tallyho! (30 July 2012)

I'm hoping we are just about to stop arguing and make friends actually Fii  good isnt it?


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## MerrySherryRider (30 July 2012)

Fii said:



			My god is this still going on, havent you all run out of things to argue about yet! 

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Nah, there's plenty to talk about, although the olympics are a bit more of a draw at the moment.

Tallyho, you haven't offended me, you're fine. I like people who aren't afraid to say what they think. 
 Its the people who don't think anything that make life boring.


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## tallyho! (30 July 2012)

Glad I haven't and thanks for understanding.

Right, well I am off to bed now feeling a lot happier  

G'night


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## MerrySherryRider (30 July 2012)

Nite Tallyho. 
Sweet dreams. til tomorrow.


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## Fii (30 July 2012)

Aww a happy ending!!


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## Patterdale (30 July 2012)

Night John Boy......


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## Goldenstar (30 July 2012)

Click click and the the lights go out


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## tallyho! (31 July 2012)

Morniiiiiiiinnngggggg!!!! 

Happy Tuesday  have a good one!


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## Pale Rider (4 August 2012)

I am unashamedly resurrecting this thread, to highlight a point I made earlier. I said a lot of top level competitors cared little for the welfare of their horses.
Obviously, I was told how wrong I was.

Unfortunately, a few days later and we are in another rollkur controversy.

Enough said.


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## Queenbee (4 August 2012)

I thought I would add to this thread as I had a right laugh yesterday... as some of you will know, ben my 3 yr old has just been backed, he has only been ridden for less than 2 weeks.  2 days ago, we moved to our lovely new yard.  I went out for a 15 min hack yesterday and when I had got back there was a chap (the father of one of the fellow liveries) he was stood there, looking at bens feet, head cocked, grimace/confusion/disgust on his face.  He then said, 'oh I know what it is, that makes his feet look wrong... he's got no shoes on, how does that work then?'  I said, that yes, he had no shoes on, that my mare who was a very dainty lass didn't wear shoes and competed, hacked out for hrs, and hunted barefoot and that since ben was only just backed and doing no more than 15 mins a day and his feet were solid and balanced, I saw absolutely no point in paying good money for bits of metal that he didn't need.  Oh but the absolute disgust on his face was priceless


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## lazybee (4 August 2012)

Pale Rider said:



			I am unashamedly resurrecting this thread, to highlight a point I made earlier. I said a lot of top level competitors cared little for the welfare of their horses.
Obviously, I was told how wrong I was.

Unfortunately, a few days later and we are in another rollkur controversy.

Enough said.
		
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 Fingers in ears...............La la la la no one's listening


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## sonicgold (4 August 2012)

Pale Rider said:



			How many times has it been posted all over the internet, that tarmac roads are excellent for barefoot horses. Yet people here continue to put, 'because I do a lot of road work I shoe my horse, I am also an idiot'. 

I made the last bit up, lol.
		
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I hacked my girl out tonight, took boots with me, and put them on on stony ground, took them off for road work. It is smooth, even and exercises the foot. She was booted to go up a long straight hill and she needed a good trot and so did I, but it was an active decision to boot for a specific reason. If folks do a lot of trotting  on the roads they need more than shoes. We walk but walk actively.
PS Breast plate straps make good boot holders.


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## tasel (4 August 2012)

My horse is barefoot and does get biotin supplement. Nothing more.

But she has been barefoot for years - in fact, she has been barefoot for the majority of her life. There's a crack in one of her back hooves at the moment, but she's not worried about it, and neither am I...


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## sonicgold (4 August 2012)

horserider said:



			Perhaps some of you barefoot guru's would like to offer your services to the Olympic equestrians. They've obviously crippled their horses by making them wear shoes. Some of the horses are now veterans, so they must need your expertise after a life time in shoes.
 Do them a favour and pop over with your hoof boots and DIY hay analysis testing kits.

Some of the 'facts' and assertions on this thread are so funny, its in the realms of the absurd now. 
 Who says shod horses slip on roads ? My experience is that a fit horse carrying itself correctly manages similarly shod or unshod.
		
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Couldn't agree more! My shod pony sometimes slips on the roads, sometimes doesn't. There are two or three people who sit in his saddle and I can to a greater or lesser extent predict which will say he has slipped and who won't


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## wernickwonder (7 August 2012)

I have two horses a cob and exrace horse both have just had their shoes removed a few days ago.  My cob will hopefully have no problems going  barefoot only had front ones on anyway, and the race horse has foot problems caused by his shoes that we are hoping to improve.  I am prepared to face the problems associated with going barefoot but never at the expense of my horses welfare. My friends horse had to be sedated and the stress involved in the process lead her down the barefoot path. Her cobs feet are now the cleanest healthiest looking hooves I have ever seen and the lady that does them is skilled not only in all aspects of hoof care her knowledge of horse behaviour is amazing.  So I am going to give it a go I have been warned against peer pressure but at the end of the day a bit of perseverance and expense is a small price to pay for happy feet!


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## Roasted Chestnuts (7 August 2012)

Well I have just had my oldies shoes taken off because he's coming back off loan and I don't need shoes on him simples.

He was bare on his hinds for years and we covered all terrains with no problems took his fronts off last nov and her was fine up until he went on loan in feb I was riding him without them no bother 

He was shod as loaner preferred it but will be unshod as for what I will be doing with him he doesn't need shoes and he has good feet


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