# Horses who go better in a double bridle



## DorothyJ (16 January 2013)

Just wondering how common this is.

I am having some help from my dressage instructor, who rides to GP level, with schooling my temperamental warmblood mare. She is working at elementary level and towards medium at home and has the ability to go on (even though I may not have!) However consistency with the contact has always been a problem and our key focus. Have had her teeth done recently by a very highly regarded dentist, and that did help, but still struggling with her. 

Today my dressage instructor tried her in a double, and then I had a go, and we were both delighted with the results. Even though we rode with the curb rein very loose, my mare was still noticeably happier and more settled with the contact. It seems to be the way forward!

Has anyone else experienced this? Would be interested to know.


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## rowy (16 January 2013)

Yupp my mare is the same!
I was struggling getting a snaffle she was happy with. It was really hindering any inprovements because she would put her self in a false outline and suck off the contact in the snaffle. The nearest one i could get her happy in is a hanging cheek myler with a port. 

My instructer suggested trying her in a double and we haven't looked back. She has improved so massively its like I am riding a different horse! She takes the contact forward and does not go behind the vertical any more and is more stronger in my hand which is what I wanted as before I had absolutely no contact/ control on her mouth there fore i couldnt half halt or anything. 

It makes my life a lot easier and keeps us both sane  just means we have to compete elem now.


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## Mavis007 (16 January 2013)

I am struggling with contact issues with my horse who is also at elem/medium level. What bits are you both using for your double??? There are just so many to choose from!


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## MillionDollar (16 January 2013)

Most definitely. My Welsh Cob goes well in a Mullen Happy Mouth Snaffle but wow he's absolutely amazing in a double, so light and works up into the contact instead of ducking behind it like he does in the snaffle. Like you, the curb is loose so it is odd how much better he is. I only use the double once/twice per week as he still competes in the snaffle atm at Elementary. I'll compete in the double once I've sorted out sitting trot


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## MillionDollar (16 January 2013)

Just to add my cob has a very big tongue, so he has a mullen bradoon with small port and the NS Dressage Warmblood Revolver Weymouth with large port as this puts the least pressure on the tongue  I have found he is definitely happiest with no joints in the bit(s).

http://www.horsebitbank.com/dressage-warmblood-revolver-2-694.phtml


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## rowy (16 January 2013)

I use the Neue schule team up with the neue schule mors l'hotte. To be honest I haven't compared it with any others but she goes so well in it I don't need to. 
Also to add, I also ride with the curb rein loose- she just likes the feeling of 2 bits in her mouth strange horse!


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## MillionDollar (16 January 2013)

Mavis007 said:



			I am struggling with contact issues with my horse who is also at elem/medium level. What bits are you both using for your double??? There are just so many to choose from!
		
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What issues in the contact do you have? You could email a few bit banks as I know the lady who specialises in NS bits is supposed to be very good


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## JGC (16 January 2013)

Mine is like this - if you ride in a double with the curb rein on her neck, she's much better than in a snaffle - go figure! Although I do alternate snaffle and double at home. I have found this in other horses too - it's quite common for certain types of horses to be much more forward in a double.


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## cptrayes (16 January 2013)

Yes, I had to ride a big moving warmblood in a double as well. He was much happier and so was I.  Ignore anyone who tries to tell you it's just a matter of training. It certainly wasn't with mine.


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## MillionDollar (16 January 2013)

JGC said:



			Mine is like this - if you ride in a double with the curb rein on her neck, she's much better than in a snaffle - go figure! .
		
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Exactly this! I warm up with the curb on his neck and he's still 1000% better than in a snaffle, so soft and light. It's weird


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## JLav (16 January 2013)

MillionDollar said:



			Just to add my cob has a very big tongue, so he has a mullen bradoon with small port
		
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I don't think you'll be able to compete in this....not sure it's BD legal. All the Bridoons listed and pictured in the rule book are jointed.


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## Mavis007 (16 January 2013)

He sticks his tongue out losing us lots of marks :-( He does it while hacking on a loose rein as well as schooling and jumping. I have tried the NS verbindend amongst others but am starting to think he doesn't like a lozenge or the but more forward in his mouth as he seems even worse.


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## MillionDollar (16 January 2013)

JLav said:



			I don't think you'll be able to compete in this....not sure it's BD legal. All the Bridoons listed and pictured in the rule book are jointed.
		
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Sorry, yes I should have said not BD legal, only use that for training. I have a jointed bradoon for him to compete in, when he does compete in a double


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## MillionDollar (16 January 2013)

Mavis007 said:



			He sticks his tongue out losing us lots of marks :-( He does it while hacking on a loose rein as well as schooling and jumping. I have tried the NS verbindend amongst others but am starting to think he doesn't like a lozenge or the but more forward in his mouth as he seems even worse.
		
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Snap!!! I have so many bits that I tried. Try a fat mullen snaffle, like I said, mine is in a Happy Mouth Mullen snaffle and he never does it in this now. At first I thought he'd be better in a really thin bit, but that made it worse. Also tried a drop noseband and a cavesson noseband (loose) and he is best in a flash.

Although I have to say some of his issues with his tongue was when he wasn't even in the contact....I sometimes couldn't get him on the outside rein on the left. Now that's sorted his tongue is never seen  And again, in the double he never ever sticks it out.


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## Mavis007 (16 January 2013)

Thanks MD that gives me hope that I have been starting to lose. I will certainly give it a try, thank you


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## LEC (16 January 2013)

I have a happy mouth Mullen if you want to borrow one Mavis can leave it with Chatter1.


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## Mavis007 (17 January 2013)

Thanks LEC, that would be great


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (17 January 2013)

mine.

competed up to medium in a snaffle but would always sit slightly behind it and not take it forward.

tried a double and havent looked back, he prefers the weight/bulk of the 2 bits and takes the contact forward beautifully and is much more secure in my hand, i can actually get my leg on and half half now, where as before no amount of leg would get him to take the hand forward, he would sink back and back and back off the hend and tighten his neck and thus his back.

he's competing PSG now, playing with GP work and feels better and better week by week, very grown up pony!

he's in a cotswold sport tongue saver snaffle and a mor l'hotte curb.


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## LaurenB (17 January 2013)

Think I may have to try this after 6 months of just snaffle and sore arms and hands it may be the way forward. He's just instantly light and lovely in his double


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## TarrSteps (17 January 2013)

Out of curiosity, for those of you who ride regularly in a double (or pelham) rather than for schooling for a specific purpose, how do you find your horses are when they go back in the snaffle?


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## Booboos (17 January 2013)

I don't have much experience with doubles but I can see the point of going from a snaffle to a double if the horse is BTV and improves this way, to be honest anything to get them to put weight on the bit is bound to be a good thing. However, I don't see how a horse that is heavy in a snaffle is improved by the double, surely it is still on the forehand but now is also holding its neck tight away from the bit? Am I misunderstanding something?


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## TarrSteps (17 January 2013)

I would tend to agree, Bb. Very different situations. . .


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (17 January 2013)

Booboos said:



			I don't have much experience with doubles but I can see the point of going from a snaffle to a double if the horse is BTV and improves this way, to be honest anything to get them to put weight on the bit is bound to be a good thing. However, I don't see how a horse that is heavy in a snaffle is improved by the double, surely it is still on the forehand but now is also holding its neck tight away from the bit? Am I misunderstanding something?
		
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no......

if its pulling you in the snaffle a double might save your arms but wont improve the way of going at all!

TS-i havent gone back to the snaffle at all, he does all his field canter work off the snaffle rein and is fine, but for *proper* schooling he is more happy to take the contact forward if i take a very slight curb contact too, just so he can feel it.


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## cptrayes (17 January 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			Out of curiosity, for those of you who ride regularly in a double (or pelham) rather than for schooling for a specific purpose, how do you find your horses are when they go back in the snaffle?
		
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I try to get my hunter out of his pelham for schooling about every six months. I use a straight bar, so the bit mouthpiece is identical, but without the curb he feels very insecure and will not work forward to the bit. In the curb he is mentally much more settled and he works much better. It's very odd, but in his case it seems to be a security blanket.

My dressage horse who died last year was quite simply uncontrollable in a snaffle. Although I tried one from time to time he simply left the arena, either through the fence or over it, every time he thought he had done enough. And hacking without a pelham, he would turn and go home. Not bolt, just canter, but there was no absolutely stopping him without a curb chain.  

Neither of these horses were like this because of me, I have plenty of history retraining other people's failures, always in a snaffle, and two other horses at home currently working sweetly in JP double link lozenges.


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## cptrayes (17 January 2013)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			no......

if its pulling you in the snaffle a double might save your arms but wont improve the way of going at all!
		
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I don't agree.

If the horse is pulling your arms out you can do nothing to improve his way of going until you can stop him from doing it.

If a double stops the horse from pulling your arms out, you then have a whole toolbox of things that you can do with his mouth and his body to improve his way of going.


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## JGC (17 January 2013)

Mavis007 said:



			He sticks his tongue out losing us lots of marks :-( He does it while hacking on a loose rein as well as schooling and jumping. I have tried the NS verbindend amongst others but am starting to think he doesn't like a lozenge or the but more forward in his mouth as he seems even worse.
		
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Mine always stuck her tongue out - I had her in any number of different snaffles and when I bought her she was in either a pelham or a gag. I also tried the Verbindend, which didn't stop her sticking her tongue out and she leant on it! The only thing that worked is the bit below - no more sticking her tongue out, plus she has a beautiful foamy mouth. I think a lozenge was never going to work with her - perhaps she felt like it was too much in her mouth or likes that the rein signals are more separate in a single joint - who knows?



TarrSteps said:



			Out of curiosity, for those of you who ride regularly in a double (or pelham) rather than for schooling for a specific purpose, how do you find your horses are when they go back in the snaffle?
		
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Mine goes fine in the snaffle and I probably ride more often in the snaffle as I am often hacking, stretching or using the canter track. She's OK to school in it, but is not as forwards and will sometimes duck behind the contact. I can only imagine that it is something to do with the stability of the weymouth as it is attached by the curb which makes her feel more confident about taking the bit forwards, as she works as well in a pelham. I suspect she would go nicely in a Kimblewick, which might help prove/disprove my theory, but I don't know anyone with the right size that I could borrow!


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## Booboos (17 January 2013)

cptrayes said:



			I don't agree.

If the horse is pulling your arms out you can do nothing to improve his way of going until you can stop him from doing it.

If a double stops the horse from pulling your arms out, you then have a whole toolbox of things that you can do with his mouth and his body to improve his way of going.
		
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Would that be a case for draw reins? Again not an aid I am familiar with but I would imagine that with the draw reins you immediately correct the pull and immediately go back to the snaffle, repeating as and when needed.


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## cptrayes (17 January 2013)

Booboos said:



			Would that be a case for draw reins? Again not an aid I am familiar with but I would imagine that with the draw reins you immediately correct the pull and immediately go back to the snaffle, repeating as and when needed.
		
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Not necessarily. My horse which had total control of me in a snaffle did not work well in draw reins, he simply ducked behind them and did what he wanted anyway, using all the wrong muscles. 

But in a double he could be sent on and out, and controlled.

There are other horses which would possibly be better in draw reins than a double, but draw reins are a very overused and badly used tool that a lot of people don't understand. I think I'd rather see a horse in a double with a correct head carriage, than overbent in draw reins.


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## Dirtymare (17 January 2013)

My instructor advised that I put my cob mare in a double ages ago, but I resisted until a few months ago. My thinking was that I am dead against gadgets and it a double is a gadget (in my eyes!!)
She works at medium level and we are hoping to do our first medium test this year.
OMG, what a difference.
I have always had contact issues with her in a snaffle. When she starts to work correctly, she gets so strong she bogs off with me!!
Now its like having power steering on a barge!! Wonderful.
She is hacked in a snaffle, so not in a double all the time.


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## Booboos (17 January 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Not necessarily. My horse which had total control of me in a snaffle did not work well in draw reins, he simply ducked behind them and did what he wanted anyway, using all the wrong muscles. 

But in a double he could be sent on and out, and controlled.

There are other horses which would possibly be better in draw reins than a double, but draw reins are a very overused and badly used tool that a lot of people don't understand. I think I'd rather see a horse in a double with a correct head carriage, than overbent in draw reins.
		
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I see, thanks for the explanation.


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## 1life (17 January 2013)

Yep . I school a Lippizaner who is very content, settled and light in a db. She has no respect for a snaffle and uses her power to pull against it. Despite trying to persist with snaffles for some time I decided to try her in a double and she is like a changed horse. Curb is relaxed, bits aren't harsh and she mouths them like she never did with any snaffles I tried.

I was always taught that you should not move on to a db unless your horse can perform the movements you require in a snaffle (in other words, it is not a shortcut to acheive an outline). But I guess some neddies break alll the old rules .


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## Carefreegirl (17 January 2013)

This time last year my instructor stuck my TB in a double and flippin 'eck what a transformation. Can't tell you what bits were on it as she just appeared with it. 
She was very light and very moveable (?) and had she not broken I'd of bought one for myself.


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## MandaleaCalico (18 January 2013)

Mine does. He's soo much better, we're hoping to compete in it by the end of the year. He's much lighter in front and softer overall, gets a bit lazier but a flick or two fixes that.

I don't know what brand they are as they're second hand, but he's in a thin loose ring bradoon and a thicker sliding cheek curb as he does show hunter classes in it as well.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (18 January 2013)

agree to disagree then Cptrayes but in the end the judge has the final say and i dont know of a single horse that supposedly could not be ridden in a snaffle due to pulling/being heavy, that supposedly went SO much better in a double that actually got consistantly good marks.............

the proof is in the pudding and if the marks are rubbish, you can bet that although light in the hand the horse was not over the back, supple, accepting the contact or uphill, more likely behind the contact but still plowing downhill from a tight back.


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## cptrayes (18 January 2013)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			agree to disagree then Cptrayes but in the end the judge has the final say and i dont know of a single horse that supposedly could not be ridden in a snaffle due to pulling/being heavy, that supposedly went SO much better in a double that actually got consistantly good marks.............
		
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I know that you are extremely competition focussed PS, but I am not, and my posting was from the point of view of schooling rather than in a competition ring.  I see that for a number of people posting it was their trainers telling them to move the horse to a double, and happy with the results.

But, irrespective of the marks he got when he was in there, I can tell you that the one horse I put in a double to compete would not have stayed in the ring at all without it on. So you can make him your first horse that you are aware of that scored consistently better in a double, disparaging as you have been on another thread about the actual marks he received when he did.  We enjoyed ourselves, which was all I felt mattered 





			The proof is in the pudding and if the marks are rubbish, you can bet that although light in the hand the horse was not over the back, supple, accepting the contact or uphill, more likely behind the contact but still plowing downhill from a tight back.
		
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1. I did not say that my horse was light in the hand in a double, he was not. He was impossible in a snaffle and strong but manageable in a double. 

2. Big moving athletic warmbloods bred for dressage do not necessarily pull downhill, mine pulled up and out. 

3. Do you not think there is a single horse who pulls like billy-oh in a snaffle who produces great marks with good reason in a double? Have you not seen Laura B's horse Alf pull even in a double? How about Parzival? I'll bet neither of those are competable without a double bridle on, myself.




PS if you have ever ridden a heavily muscled big-moving and extremely opinionated warmblood of the kind sometimes found in KWPN breeding in particular, who would simply take you off an arena if he did not want to stay there in a snaffle, can you tell us what you did to resolve those issues if you did not put it into a double bridle?



I'm interested too that you think it is a good solution for your own lightweight TB, but not for a big pulling warmblood. I don't understand why you think a double can only be effective on a horse which does not pull in a snaffle. My Grand Prix trainer did not agree, and advised a double for my horse that was the making of him. Can you explain a bit more why you think it can't work?


.


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## TarrSteps (18 January 2013)

Why does everything have to be a fight?

Leverage bits work by increasing strength.  End of.  If a horse that is normally very light goes better in one then that's not the issue at hand.  I see the point about having more and a more stable bit in the horse's mouth - that is the point of the Mikmar bits, after all - but then that begs the question why do people seem to automatically assume now that all horses will be happier in a double jointed, loose ring snaffle.

My question - and sorry if I started this - was predicated by the fact that I have had a few horses that have been ridden almost exclusively in leverage bits because they were too strong in a simple snaffle to reschool because someone wanted to do lower level dressage with them. My PERSONAL experience is this often does not go well so I am VERY reluctant to suggest a leverage bit as the be all and end all to "fix" a horse that is strong on the flat.  I hate going down roads I can't get back from.  But if the horse is already unridable, hey ho.  Then it needs to do a suitable job and be bitted accordingly.  But don't kid yourself its not about strength. 

I have seen at least two horses that looked very strong in the ring - one a tank, the other very hot - ride in snaffles at home and in schooling. I would not dream of saying what other people do at home, although I have always been told by good people that you have a problem if you cannot ride your horse in a snaffle for light work.  I assume there are very good horses that always work in doubles but that does not mean it's a good choice for most.  Every rule has exceptions.


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## Booboos (18 January 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			My question - and sorry if I started this - was predicated by the fact that I have had a few horses that have been ridden almost exclusively in leverage bits because they were too strong in a simple snaffle to reschool because someone wanted to do lower level dressage with them. My PERSONAL experience is this often does not go well so I am VERY reluctant to suggest a leverage bit as the be all and end all to "fix" a horse that is strong on the flat.  I hate going down roads I can't get back from.
		
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I think that would be my worry as well as I've been taught to think that if you meet a strong horse with a strong bit you may have trouble going back and you may find that things escalate. However horses are individuals so what suits one may well not suit others.

Slightly different but I have managed to 'wean' a strong horse off a gag and into a snaffle, but it was a matter of more schooling to make it easier for him to carry himself and not need to lean on the bit as much. He didn't have a tendency to stick his head and go, rather he would load the shoulder, stay straight and become really heavy in front.


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## cptrayes (18 January 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			Why does everything have to be a fight?
		
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I can't see a fight anywhere? Just a discussion with people with different points of view.

I agree completely with yours when you suggest that most horses and their riders should be steering well clear of double bridles. But for _some_ horses, the addition or substitution of a curb bit is the making of the partnership.


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## cptrayes (18 January 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			Leverage bits work by increasing strength.  End of.
		
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This isn't the whole story. It certainly doesn't end with increased strength. 

Curbed bits act on the chin groove and the poll. On many horses you can put a piece of elastic on as a curb and they react as if it is some kind of reflex point and give to the bit much more easily because of it.  Many people use them, elastic curbs are freely available. 

Likewise, many horses are very accepting of extremely light poll pressure as an aid.

So for some horses, using a leveraged curb bit can often be done very, very lightly, with far less mouth pressure than would be required in a snaffle.

Increased strength is only part of the mix, and with many horses not even the largest part.


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## sarahhelen1977 (18 January 2013)

My boy definitely goes better in a double, but I didn't introduce it until he was totally confident in the contact in the snaffle. Quite a few people suggested that I put him in a double sooner, but I'm glad I waited until he was absolutely ready, as the transition has been really easy as a result. I use a verbindend bridoon (same as his snaffle) and an Aachen curb. I alternate between snaffle and double when schooling, and his work has improved in the snaffle as a result.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (18 January 2013)

cptrayes said:



			I know that you are extremely competition focussed PS, but I am not, and my posting was from the point of view of schooling rather than in a competition ring.  I see that for a number of people posting it was their trainers telling them to move the horse to a double, and happy with the results.

But, irrespective of the marks he got when he was in there, I can tell you that the one horse I put in a double to compete would not have stayed in the ring at all without it on. So you can make him your first horse that you are aware of that scored consistently better in a double, disparaging as you have been on another thread about the actual marks he received when he did.  We enjoyed ourselves, which was all I felt mattered 




1. I did not say that my horse was light in the hand in a double, he was not. He was impossible in a snaffle and strong but manageable in a double. 

2. Big moving athletic warmbloods bred for dressage do not necessarily pull downhill, mine pulled up and out. 

3. Do you not think there is a single horse who pulls like billy-oh in a snaffle who produces great marks with good reason in a double? Have you not seen Laura B's horse Alf pull even in a double? How about Parzival? I'll bet neither of those are competable without a double bridle on, myself.




PS if you have ever ridden a heavily muscled big-moving and extremely opinionated warmblood of the kind sometimes found in KWPN breeding in particular, who would simply take you off an arena if he did not want to stay there in a snaffle, can you tell us what you did to resolve those issues if you did not put it into a double bridle?



I'm interested too that you think it is a good solution for your own lightweight TB, but not for a big pulling warmblood. I don't understand why you think a double can only be effective on a horse which does not pull in a snaffle. My Grand Prix trainer did not agree, and advised a double for my horse that was the making of him. Can you explain a bit more why you think it can't work?


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racing home so quickly.

Laura B rides alf in a snaffle all the time, hundreds of pics documenting this at shows and at home.
Parzival i would go as far as to say is the epitome of everything i DONT want my horses to be and i think he looks unhappy in the contact 99% of the time. Succesful but unhappy.....

i ride plenty of big moving horses and ironically my horse 2 previous to CS was a 17.3hh KWPN. I never felt the need to use the double to force the braking issue. But then he was trained to go nicely in a snaffle so.....

as someone else has already said, using it to encourage MORE contact in a light mouthed horse is different to using it for brute force braking power in a heavy horse, which is basically what you have said you used it for, to keep him in the arena/to prevent him running out the arena, ergo, brakes.
That i dont agree with and would rather work on why the horse was so upset being in the arena.

marks are marks and good bad, or mediocre, they tell the story of the training.

again, agree to disagree.

off to ride in a blizzard, byyyyyyeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!


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## TarrSteps (18 January 2013)

I have certainly used leverage bits to 'impress' big strong horses into being willing to have a conversation about changing their way of going. And I do but believe every horse can and should go in a non-leverage bit in every situation, either temporarily or permanently. My point was only that I have met more than one horse that was put in a leverage bit to make it 'look' like a dressage horse, only for said horses to become almost unridable in a snaffle,.which seems to defeat the point. 

Re leverage. It is what it is. Most standard pelhams and curbs work on a ratio between 2:1 and 3:1 (easily found by measuring) which is no small amount of force and makes even quite a light aid pretty significant. It also allows the rider to keep up the force more consistently as it does not take as much muscle power. This does not make them bad or good, it simply is. Knowing what a piece of equipment does is essential to knowing when and how to use it, surely? 

Draw reins to the girth are something like 7:1. I wonder what a Pessoa aid is . . .?


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## TarrSteps (18 January 2013)

Not not but in second sentence.


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## cptrayes (18 January 2013)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			i ride plenty of big moving horses and ironically my horse 2 previous to CS was a 17.3hh KWPN. I never felt the need to use the double to force the braking issue. But then he was trained to go nicely in a snaffle so.....

as someone else has already said, using it to encourage MORE contact in a light mouthed horse is different to using it for brute force braking power in a heavy horse, which is basically what you have said you used it for, to keep him in the arena/to prevent him running out the arena, ergo, brakes.
That i dont agree with and would rather work on why the horse was so upset being in the arena.
		
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So if you bought one, as I did, that the male rider who broke him in could not hold in any place where he did not want to be (more fool me but I fell in love at first sight and thought I could fix him as I have every other horse I've bought that behaved badly)  can you tell me what you would have done with him to make him safe to ride? 

There is always a possibility that my trainer and I missed something and I would appreciate the benefit of your experience. 

I tried to manage him in a snaffle for two years before I gave up and he seemed a much happier horse when I had more control. "Brute force" is one way to describe it, but it does not encapsulate how much more mentally balanced he was when he was in a double than a snaffle or how much "happier" he felt. He had 3 time tempi changes before his wobblers exploded one day, the pinnacle of the improvements that started as soon as I put him in the double. 

I know you have previously posted that your horse will not hack out in a snaffle. Neither would mine but he would go in a pelham or a double, though I would not ever say it was his number one choice of activity   Out of interest, will yours hack in a double?

I also have another big moving warmblood who I ride in a snaffle all the time and he is a piece of cake since I fixed his cold back.  He needs a double as much as he needs another leg, but the other horse really seemed to me to need it, and I'm still puzzled why you disagree with me so strongly about that when you never met him?  Surely there really are some horses that genuinely go better in a double? There seem to be about ten people on this thread alone who say they have one?


I hope you get home safe in this snow.


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## cptrayes (18 January 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			And I do but believe every horse can and should go in a non-leverage bit in every situation, either temporarily or permanently. My point was only that I have met more than one horse that was put in a leverage bit to make it 'look' like a dressage horse, only for said horses to become almost unridable in a snaffle,.which seems to defeat the point.
		
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edited out, saw your "not"


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## cptrayes (18 January 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			My point was only that I have met more than one horse that was put in a leverage bit to make it 'look' like a dressage horse, only for said horses to become almost unridable in a snaffle,.which seems to defeat the point.
		
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Edited after seeing your "not" post 

Totally agree with you that using one as a shortcut to "outline"  is not sensible. 

But this thread has a number of posters who put their horses in doubles on the advice of their trainers, as I did,  who are all reporting that the horse genuinely goes better in a double than a snaffle. As mine did. 

There is no problem with those horses being in doubles, if you accept what the posters are saying about genuine improvement, if the rider never wants to compete at Intro, Prelim or Novice?

If they were difficult to ride in snaffles and put into a double, then the rider has lost nothing if they cannot return to a snaffle. And gained everything if they and their horses are happier people because of it.


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## TarrSteps (18 January 2013)

I corrected the second sentence in my second post, "but" to "not".  Phone won't let me edit or quote.


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## cptrayes (18 January 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			I corrected the second sentence in my second post, "but" to "not".  Phone won't let me edit or quote.
		
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I saw it late, I've edited all mine as well   We agree.


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## TarrSteps (18 January 2013)

If you do not accept that there are horses which will never school happily in a snaffle, then of course your argument is correct.
		
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Is not what I said.

I said that I have had horses to retrain as lower level dressage horses because, for instance, they have a physical issue that precludes jumping, who were almost impossible to ride without a leverage bit.  No problem, unless you are concerned about shutting that door for the horse.  I would say the same about hackamores. I have ridden horses that were much happier and easier in non leverage hackamores but, alas, not suitable for dressage.  If the hackamore cannot be used as a bridge to get the horse back into a traditional bitting arrangement then that door - which is quite a common one for older horses to he expected to do - is shut to it.  Again, no problem.  But for people who have not had that experience, surely this is information to consider prior to making a decision? I quite often meet people who really do believe that they could switch back anytime and then when they do, they find out they have gone down a slippery track.  No harm in letting people know.

I must say I have never met a horse that strong during the breaking process, bar a few that turned out to have actual problems or have been worked in hand in ways that I, personally, don't really subscribe to.  (Even Western horses start in non-leverage snaffles and their competition rules don't allow young horses to show in curbs.)  Live and learn. Perhaps it's a function of my different background.

Anyway, as you say, your horse was happier and did the job for you without difficulty in the double so there was no problem. 

It is a pet peeve of mine, I'll freely admit, that so many people deny leverage increases strength. That is the point!  Give me a lever and a place to stand and I could move the world. There is nothing WRONG with that and if it's needed, so be it. But why deny it?


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## Cortez (19 January 2013)

The curb part of the double bridle has a leverage element but is not supposed to be used with a constant pressure (as the snaffle is), it is supposed to be released as soon as the communication has been sent. If used correctly the double bridle, and also the curb alone, CANNOT be used for its intended purpose (to refine the aid) with a horse which leans on the bit, so anyone attempting to use a full bridle as "brakes" is totally misunderstanding the principle. Perhaps the reason many horses prefer the curb action to the snaffle is the relief from the constant pressure and dead pull of the snaffle.


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## Goldenstar (19 January 2013)

My problem ex driving horse who was backed at ten was greatly improved when my trainer coaxed me into a double .
The horse does not take contact easily and if he goes BTV very easily he's built so it's easy to do it .
The double has helped so much I can ride forward more easily and I don't need to use the curb very much .
He built very uphill and finds working long and low very very hard.
He's still difficult in the snaffle schooling but he's good to hack and I use the snaffle for that.
It seemed illogical to me  to put a difficult in the hand horse into a double but it's helped a lot.


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## cptrayes (19 January 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			Anyway, as you say, your horse was happier and did the job for you without difficulty in the double so there was no problem. 

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Oh heavens no! I couldn't go that far, he was always a monster   He was a most peculiar horse, mentally very challenged in all sorts of behaviours right from before he was imported (I found out later!). I loved him for his quirkiness, his neediness, and the power of his movement but I could never find anyone else who was prepared to even get on his back in a snaffle. The double made him controllable, just about, it never made him "easy", though he had days of complete brilliance when his mind was in the right place. As you can see from his scores, that was never in a competition arena, sadly.

He was put down at 10 because of late onset wobblers, and in his last week he went to a rehab yard while I was away on holiday. I warned them not to leave him in a box without bars, and although they put bars up they looked at me as if I was nuts - how would a horse paralysed in the back legs climb out of a box???  By the time I picked him up, they understood, NOTHING stopped that horse from being where he wanted but a chifney or a curb, and even the curb did not work if there was a large port (Neue Schule warmblood) in it. 

I will always feel that I failed with him, and I would genuinely like to know if PS would have done anything else that my trainer and I did not try between us to keep him in a snaffle. I do doubt it though 




			It is a pet peeve of mine, I'll freely admit, that so many people deny leverage increases strength. That is the point!  Give me a lever and a place to stand and I could move the world. There is nothing WRONG with that and if it's needed, so be it. But why deny it?
		
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I absolutely agree with you about leverage, it's basic physics. I'd also be very annoyed if anyone denied that's what they were doing.


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## cptrayes (19 January 2013)

My current dressage wonderboy is still spooking big time at arena letters after two whole seasons (ex winter) of competition. Can anyone help with that? I have so far tried:

- ignoring him
- punishing him (the dressage judge commented that I was absolutely right to do so, from what she saw of his demeanour)
- letters at home
- letters on a big white feed  bucket, fed just before he goes into the arena
- at home, weaving back and forwards closer until he ignores them - if this works today, it won't stop him starting exactly the same way tomorrow   (actually he rarely spooks at the letters at home, but he is wild about some blue plastic barrels I have)
- a double bridle - and boy what a mistake that was even though he goes forwards beautifully to a snaffle !!!

More ideas, please, if he just does his natural paces without spooking he scores 70% and over because he's such a nice mover, but he's only done it twice in the whole two seasons.  On the ground he's a puppy dog to manage, sweet and willing.

Maybe I should start a new thread with this one?


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## Carefreegirl (19 January 2013)

I'm going to show my ignorance here as being a 'latecomer' to the world of Double Bridles but I just assumed that people used them as they were correct for the level of training i.e Elementary and above Dressage and correct for the type of class i.e Showing ?

My instructor gets to HOYS etc every year with at least one pupil (and sometimes herself) so when she put one on my horse it was because that's what she had planned as my goal for last year with the Search for a star Racehorse to Riding horse (God love her optimism) and also because we were working to start competing Elementary in the summer. I normally showed her in a NS jointed pelham purely because I had no experience of Doubles. I have hunted my horse several times, each time in a snaffle so she's not strong in the slightest.

So how would a Double compare to say a Pelham in terms of keeping hold of a strong horse ? As a poster before says the leverage will 'give the horse a break from the constant pull on a snaffle' I'm not talking for competition purposes but general day to day. 

I had lessons in my Pelham so was aware of using the different reins as and when needed and very rarely needed the curb rein. 

I hope this question makes sense as I'm that clever about explaining things in writing


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## Lolo (19 January 2013)

QR to carefreegirl- when Reg did his RoR, he was complimented by all the judges for the fact he was still in a snaffle as they felt they rathered him be forwards and comfortable and happy in a snaffle than in a double for the sake of being in a double. It was such a point that the comment was repeated in H&H that week (cue lots of smiles from Al, as although Reg wasn't mentioned he was the only snaffle-wearing horse in the class). I can't help you with any of your questions, but you don't *need* to move into a double if you don't want to for RoR...


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## Carefreegirl (19 January 2013)

Lolo said:



			QR to carefreegirl- when Reg did his RoR, he was complimented by all the judges for the fact he was still in a snaffle as they felt they rathered him be forwards and comfortable and happy in a snaffle than in a double for the sake of being in a double. It was such a point that the comment was repeated in H&H that week (cue lots of smiles from Al, as although Reg wasn't mentioned he was the only snaffle-wearing horse in the class). I can't help you with any of your questions, but you don't *need* to move into a double if you don't want to for RoR...
		
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Hi Lolo. I started off the ROR in her snaffle (hanging cheek NS) but as I got more into it I liked the look of a Double with two sets of reins but having no experience with Doubles I went for the pelham which was the most similar bit mouth piece wise to the snaffle. Tbh I didn't think she had a big enough mouth for a Double but having changed instructor who had more experience in showing it appeared she did have a big enough gob  She goes well in the snaffle and the pelham but even better in the Double. 
I am the original 'All the gear - no idea'


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## Cortez (19 January 2013)

Carefreegirl said:



			I'm going to show my ignorance here as being a 'latecomer' to the world of Double Bridles but I just assumed that people used them as they were correct for the level of training i.e Elementary and above Dressage and correct for the type of class i.e Showing ?

My instructor gets to HOYS etc every year with at least one pupil (and sometimes herself) so when she put one on my horse it was because that's what she had planned as my goal for last year with the Search for a star Racehorse to Riding horse (God love her optimism) and also because we were working to start competing Elementary in the summer. I normally showed her in a NS jointed pelham purely because I had no experience of Doubles. I have hunted my horse several times, each time in a snaffle so she's not strong in the slightest.

So how would a Double compare to say a Pelham in terms of keeping hold of a strong horse ? As a poster before says the leverage will 'give the horse a break from the constant pull on a snaffle' I'm not talking for competition purposes but general day to day. 

I had lessons in my Pelham so was aware of using the different reins as and when needed and very rarely needed the curb rein. 

I hope this question makes sense as I'm that clever about explaining things in writing 

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A pelham, or specifically a double bridle, is only a "severe" bit if the person on the other end of the reins makes it so, either intentionally or through lack of education. They are NOT intended to "control" a strong horse; the double bridle is an advanced system of communication to a horse at a suitable level of understanding / training. And the "giving a break from pulling" on the snaffle only occurs when the rider actually lets go, something that not many people have really grasped if the reaction of many horses is anything to go by.


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## Carefreegirl (19 January 2013)

Cortez said:



			A pelham, or specifically a double bridle, is only a "severe" bit if the person on the other end of the reins makes it so, either intentionally or through lack of education. They are NOT intended to "control" a strong horse; the double bridle is an advanced system of communication to a horse at a suitable level of understanding / training. And the "giving a break from pulling" on the snaffle only occurs when the rider actually lets go, something that not many people have really grasped if the reaction of many horses is anything to go by.
		
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So you wouldn't put a strong horse in a Double for brakes, more just as an aid to refine the riders signals ? Which is what I felt.

Never had anything to do with Doubles before so all a learning curve for me  When my horse was put in one I literally just thought about what I wanted to do pace, transition, direction wise and she did it. I only rode in it for a few lessons as she lent to someone else. However, it could just be that I have owned her for 7 years so I think she knows me quite well by now and just preepmts me !


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## TarrSteps (19 January 2013)

Goldenstar said:



			My problem ex driving horse who was backed at ten was greatly improved when my trainer coaxed me into a double .
The horse does not take contact easily and if he goes BTV very easily he's built so it's easy to do it .
The double has helped so much I can ride forward more easily and I don't need to use the curb very much .
He built very uphill and finds working long and low very very hard.
He's still difficult in the snaffle schooling but he's good to hack and I use the snaffle for that.
It seemed illogical to me  to put a difficult in the hand horse into a double but it's helped a lot.
		
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I think driving horses are a bit of a special case though.  The few proper combined driving horses I've sat on have been nice on the flat - they are often ridden as well to help with their dressage or simply because they are multi-use - but some of the ones that have been driven exclusively, especially if they've been raced, have a way of stiffening and leaning on the bit that I've never experienced in a riding horse!  As I said, leverage bits can be TOOLS to help a horse understand why things need to be different and for a horse that's been taught to pull I can see why you might have more success reasoning with him in something other than a straight pull snaffle.  It also may have helped him to have a mullen mouth bit if that's what he'd been driven in.  

As in the case of cptrayes horses, you weren't dealing with a horses from a traditional training system and had little to lose by going another way.

A very good event rider I knew (placed at Badminton, multiple Olympic appearances) took on a very athletic, good jumping, but pathologically strong horse to event.  He was a big guy and a strong rider and could not hold it.  So his solution was to move it up to Intermediate so he could do his dressage in a double!!  It did the trick and, I have to say, the horse went later for a woman in a snaffle when it dropped down so obviously it did the trick.  However I knew a small girl who bought an ex P2P horse that, if I remember, Mark Todd had ridden before it was sold to N America and then on to her.  Her solution was to put it in a double and frankly, it was a disaster.  I stood at the end of the long side during one of her tests and when she came down in extended canter I feared for my life!!

Interesting, cpt, about your strong horse which turned out to have a neurological issue.  One of the most inexplicably strong horses I have ever ridden - he went best in a vulcanite pelham with a cushioned curd strap, although "best" was a relative term - turned out in the end to have extensive damage to his neck.  He was a fantastic athlete and *should* have gone better, looking at his conformation, but when I met him he was actually jumping competitively, despite being extremely difficult to ride.  In his case we knew his history and were able to trace to the accident that likely started the problem, although there was also a degenerative aspect as well.  I did actually manage to rehab him to some extent, with veterinary intervention, and he was then easily ridable in a snaffle, although I was also careful not to put him into situations where I might have really needed to take a pull.  Unfortunately he was sold on without provenance (through a good trainer so presumably did not go in a way that was obviously broken) and a while later someone tried to jump him in drawreins to address his "stiffness" and there was a bad accident.   I have no idea what happened after that - I kind of hope he was pts.


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## cptrayes (19 January 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			Interesting, cpt, about your strong horse which turned out to have a neurological issue.  One of the most inexplicably strong horses I have ever ridden - he went best in a vulcanite pelham with a cushioned curd strap, although "best" was a relative term - turned out in the end to have extensive damage to his neck.  He was a fantastic athlete and *should* have gone better, looking at his conformation, but when I met him he was actually jumping competitively, despite being extremely difficult to ride.  In his case we knew his history and were able to trace to the accident that likely started the problem, although there was also a degenerative aspect as well.  I did actually manage to rehab him to some extent, with veterinary intervention, and he was then easily ridable in a snaffle, although I was also careful not to put him into situations where I might have really needed to take a pull.  Unfortunately he was sold on without provenance (through a good trainer so presumably did not go in a way that was obviously broken) and a while later someone tried to jump him in drawreins to address his "stiffness" and there was a bad accident.   I have no idea what happened after that - I kind of hope he was pts. 

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The question as to how much his congenital neck deformity caused his behaviour will never leave me   The comparison with this case of yours is strong and it has to have been part of the story. But some of his quirks were also shared by at least one full brother and his father, neither of which I ever met. The condition is not known to be hereditary and the father was a GP showjumper. So we will never know. All I know is that the double made him safe (even then a relative term out hacking  ) and definitely happier, and that was enough for me.

I can only guess that at some stage of his upbringing in Holland, where he was until 4 years old, he learnt that his power allowed him to escape from any situation that he did not like, and the people who broke him "allowed" him to continue in that belief. Until I had him I would never have accepted that anyone could have so little control over a horse (and I have plenty of experience of taking on bad ones!). After owning Vulgaus Majistralis, I am more open minded that some horses just have to be ridden in at least a pelham to hack and school at home and therefore a  double bridle to compete. 

Not many, but definitely some.


ps I'm off out to school  my latest rehab now  (feet rehab, not behaviour rehab). He has completely the reverse problem - he has such a sensitive mouth that he reacts to the bit far too much. I'm in the middle of desensitising him and we have recently had a promotion into a metal lozenge bit (via nathe, then plastic)  which is going very well


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## Booboos (19 January 2013)

cptrayes said:



			My current dressage wonderboy is still spooking big time at arena letters after two whole seasons (ex winter) of competition. Can anyone help with that? I have so far tried:

- ignoring him
- punishing him (the dressage judge commented that I was absolutely right to do so, from what she saw of his demeanour)
- letters at home
- letters on a big white feed  bucket, fed just before he goes into the arena
- at home, weaving back and forwards closer until he ignores them - if this works today, it won't stop him starting exactly the same way tomorrow   (actually he rarely spooks at the letters at home, but he is wild about some blue plastic barrels I have)
- a double bridle - and boy what a mistake that was even though he goes forwards beautifully to a snaffle !!!

More ideas, please, if he just does his natural paces without spooking he scores 70% and over because he's such a nice mover, but he's only done it twice in the whole two seasons.  On the ground he's a puppy dog to manage, sweet and willing.

Maybe I should start a new thread with this one?
		
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I don't know if you started a new thread on this, but if not, try operant conditioning. It's a really fast way of overcoming fears. Start him off in hand with all the letters round the school as normal. If he looks at a letter, click and reward, if he takes a step towards a letter, click and reward. Work at it until he is willing to walk up to a letter and eventually touch it with his nose. Keep rewarding the behaviour he offers rather than pushing him to act. When he is completely used to this leave treats on the letters. I would imagine that at this stage you can work on him ridden. If leaving treats on the letters won't work you need an assistant on the ground to click and treat everytime he goes near the letter. Repeat in another venue (you may need to start from the beginning with in hand work). Hopefully he will get the idea.


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## TarrSteps (19 January 2013)

Re back to the strong horse for a moment. . .

The one I mentioned was also a phenomenal athlete, very well bred, being of the last sons of a famous stallion that produced multiple medallists and champions but was known for producing very forward, tough, complicated horses. I'm sure this horse's innate ability and drive to get the job done was both his blessing and his curse - it never occurred to him to quit, literally or figuratively, so his reaction to pain and misunderstanding was to drive ever more strongly forward. 

Makes you think. . .


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## cptrayes (19 January 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			Re back to the strong horse for a moment. . .

The one I mentioned was also a phenomenal athlete, very well bred, being of the last sons of a famous stallion that produced multiple medallists and champions but was known for producing very forward, tough, complicated horses. I'm sure this horse's innate ability and drive to get the job done was both his blessing and his curse - it never occurred to him to quit, literally or figuratively, so his reaction to pain and misunderstanding was to drive ever more strongly forward. 

Makes you think. . .
		
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Sounds familiar!


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## cptrayes (19 January 2013)

Booboos said:



			I don't know if you started a new thread on this, but if not, try operant conditioning. It's a really fast way of overcoming fears. Start him off in hand with all the letters round the school as normal. If he looks at a letter, click and reward, if he takes a step towards a letter, click and reward. Work at it until he is willing to walk up to a letter and eventually touch it with his nose. Keep rewarding the behaviour he offers rather than pushing him to act. When he is completely used to this leave treats on the letters. I would imagine that at this stage you can work on him ridden. If leaving treats on the letters won't work you need an assistant on the ground to click and treat everytime he goes near the letter. Repeat in another venue (you may need to start from the beginning with in hand work). Hopefully he will get the idea.
		
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Thankyou for that suggestion. 

He'll happily approach letters and eat treats off them at home. He'll eat treats off a letter (big white bucket with X on in in black tape) just before the judge rings the bell. I just can't get him to transfer it inside the arena, any ideas how to do that bit?


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## Booboos (19 January 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Thankyou for that suggestion. 

He'll happily approach letters and eat treats off them at home. He'll eat treats off a letter (big white bucket with X on in in black tape) just before the judge rings the bell. I just can't get him to transfer it inside the arena, any ideas how to do that bit?
		
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Maybe ask a judge to indulge you, enter H/C and spend the test going round getting a friend to give him treats at the letters, doing as many of the movements as you can in between? I imagine he probably feels the tension of the moment of the test and that's enough to tip him into worrying about it.


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## Goldenstar (20 January 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Thankyou for that suggestion. 

He'll happily approach letters and eat treats off them at home. He'll eat treats off a letter (big white bucket with X on in in black tape) just before the judge rings the bell. I just can't get him to transfer it inside the arena, any ideas how to do that bit?
		
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I think this type of behaviour can be what  I call displacement spooking its my opinion it can be caused by the horse being placed under too much physiological pressure in the arena at competitions they learn that spooking gets the focus off the work and onto the the spook and a vicious circle starts. 
Could this be the case with your horse in his past ?


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## cptrayes (20 January 2013)

Booboos said:



			Maybe ask a judge to indulge you, enter H/C and spend the test going round getting a friend to give him treats at the letters, doing as many of the movements as you can in between? I imagine he probably feels the tension of the moment of the test and that's enough to tip him into worrying about it.
		
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Good idea, I'll do that if he starts again this spring.  It certainly is a tension thing.





Goldenstar said:



			I think this type of behaviour can be what  I call displacement spooking its my opinion it can be caused by the horse being placed under too much physiological pressure in the arena at competitions they learn that spooking gets the focus off the work and onto the the spook and a vicious circle starts. 
Could this be the case with your horse in his past ?
		
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I understand exactly what you mean, but don't think it's _physio_logical pressure, he's working at far higher levels at home than he is asked to do in a Prelim test and much harder too, than the work involved in one Prelim and one Novice. I don't overwork the warmup as I am currently interested in despooking, not in getting a fabulous score.  

I am sure it's psychological though, the question is just how to get him out of it. Clearly I must be passing some tension to him, but I have worked hard on not doing that and I am a lot calmer than I ever used to be in a competition arena. He is a sensitive beast, bred to do this job at a high level, so pretty sharp.

It went really bad after a time when it was raining and he saw raindrops falling in the water in the top of the number stands. I let him look at it and play with the water and then the silly twit actually pulled it over and frightened himself. Up til then, he had really improved and then it all went to pot again 

The interesting thing is that he can do a major strop-spook, half rearing, bucking, and then I can push him past and he carries on as if nothing had ever happened. He doesn't carry the tension forwards into the rest of the test. I find him very odd in that respect, but I also think it shows that it's not all me, or even mostly me.

Unfortunately all his competing and almost all of his training has been with me so I can't blame anyone else either


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## Reggies1 (4 June 2019)

LaurenB said:



			Think I may have to try this after 6 months of just snaffle and sore arms and hands it may be the way forward. He's just instantly light and lovely in his double
		
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Mine is incredible strong and leans like no other I have ridden. I canâ€™t hold in any snaffle ( tried the lot ) so currently In a rubber Pelham but wanting to try a double for showing. Any advice. All the usual have been checked teeth, back tac etc. Just proving to be a very strong girl.


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## milliepops (5 June 2019)

Reggies1 said:



			Mine is incredible strong and leans like no other I have ridden. I canâ€™t hold in any snaffle ( tried the lot ) so currently In a rubber Pelham but wanting to try a double for showing. Any advice. All the usual have been checked teeth, back tac etc. Just proving to be a very strong girl.
		
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Hi Reggies1, this is a very old thread (though a good read ) so I think you would be best to start your own one to ask your question, otherwise it might not get noticed.


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