# How does barefoot "cure" navicular disease?



## TPO (17 November 2010)

I've read numerous posts on here over the years stating that going barefoot can bring a horse lame with navicular sound. 

Could anyone please elaborate as despite numerous searches I can't find any proof or evidence of this? Yes Ive seen the videos and pictures but are there x-rays, scans etc showing improvement in the structure of the foot?

I appreciate that going barefoot can help in many cases of lameness where the hoof is unbalanced and/or of poor quality. I can see how rebalancing the hoof by going barefoot can/could/would help with navicular syndrome when tendons and bursa, for example, are involved but how does it help with true navic disease? 

When there is advanced navicular and lesions on the navic bone how exactly does being unshod cure the lameness and ease the pain/discomfort caused by the disease? Are there any x-rays of true navic horses with lesions on the navic bone before and after barefoot rehab? Has the bone regenerated? If so why isnt this finding more widespread?

If the horse already has well balanced and healthy feet in shoes how/why/what does transitioning the horse to barefoot improve/change? 

Im not anti-barefoot; I believe each horse is an individual. Ive used an EP once previously (trained, qualified & registered; but that experience alone has put me off ever using a trimmer again) BUT I am interested in learning, anatomy and I do try to keep an open mind. I am very interested in hoof health and conformation.

Ive had discussions at great length with different vets and farriers about navicular disease. Ive seen horses with navicular (dont know if disease or syndrome) go barefoot and be crippled but the rider/owner has carried on regardless purely on the basis that its natural and therefore better and having read success stories from various websites believing it to be a cure all. This is not a reflection on being barefoot/unshod just shows how some people do things without enough knowledge and/or information.

So are there x-rays out there? Has anyone got a horse that has dumbfounded vets with its recovery from navicular disease? Has anyone sent (or done at home under the guidance of a vet and a trimmer) their horse for barefoot rehab for navic and not had good results? 

Ive looked on some rehab websites but in the majority of cases these horses have really bad feet to begin with (I wonder how some of them managed to walk!) and the care of the rehab has greatly improved this and subsequently other areas of discomfort, like secondary back pain. What if the horse already has good, healthy & balanced feet? However on these sites Ive never seen x-rays of the navicular bone or even MRI scans for horses where DDFT or bursa is involved showing befores and afters.

Not wanting an argument, or even a debate, just information and others to share their experiences for the good or bad.

Thank you in advance

Apologies for any spelling and grammar mistakes as Im typing this on the sly at work in drips and drabs.


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## ThePony (17 November 2010)

I would suggest you call Rockley and discuss project Dexter with them. http://www.rockleyfarm.co.uk/RockleyFarm/Home.html
They are the guys in the know so I won't even attempt a poor reply here, they are the people to approach!


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## TPO (17 November 2010)

glosgirl said:



			I would suggest you call Rockley and discuss project Dexter with them. http://www.rockleyfarm.co.uk/RockleyFarm/Home.html
They are the guys in the know so I won't even attempt a poor reply here, they are the people to approach!
		
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Thanks for taking the time to reply.

I've read on their site and seen the project horses being used. Would feel I was wasting their time calling as I'm not looking to send a horse there or a vet/EP etc to be able to discuss anything in depth. I'm led to believe it will be published soon so am happy to wait.

I would be interested to know if there are before/after scans and x-rays and if any improvements in lesions on the navic bone were found in the study. 

Also, could be getting my sites mixed up as looked at a few, but didn't all the horses in the test group have poor hoof balance and quality prior to going to Rockley? Would assume (dangerous I know!) that improving the hoof balance, shod or not, in feet that bad would make improvements in their way of going regardless but did it improve the navicular affected structures?

Thanks again


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## MerrySherryRider (17 November 2010)

Very interesting post. I have a horse that was diagnosed with navicular syndrome shortly after purchase. I was strongly advised by my vet and specialist farrier not to go barefoot, which I would have preferred if possible.However, she is now sound and in full work,and the behavioural problems she exhibited have ceased. My other two horses are barefoot, so I'm certainly not anti. 
Like you, I would be interested in seeing evidence that barefoot trimming is a better option, but wonder why the vet and farrier are so adamant, when the latest research is available to them.


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## amandap (17 November 2010)

Have you seen this article it sights research (some of which has incidentally been around a while) and I'd also recommend the navicular DVD on Pete Ramey's Under the Horse DVD series. Along with the other info on this series the navicular causes described was a light bulb moment for me and ties together competely the dietry and management advice that is so critical in the holistic barefoot approach.
http://www.hoofrehab.com/NavicularSyndrome.htm

I know the term navicular covers many things so I imagine in the end what is 'best' for a particular horse has to be a decision made by the owner and other professionals involved. Barefoot option is sometimes a huge change for owners so you have to be prepared to take this on board and put in the effort.


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## LucyPriory (17 November 2010)

Not heard of anyone claiming that barefoot repairs damage to the navicular bone.  Can you provide any links?

What I have seen being claimed is that barefoot can help with cases of navicular syndrome.

I agree with OP that it is unfortunate that people try barefoot without proper experience or support.  It is more than taking the shoes off.

Most cases of navicular syndrome seen do involve feet which are in poor condition which is why for some people this particular diagnosis is problematic.


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## amandap (17 November 2010)

LucyPriory said:



			Not heard of anyone claiming that barefoot repairs damage to the navicular bone.  Can you provide any links?
		
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Better just clarify here. Repair of damage to the bone isn't claimed on the link I put up. It explains a possible mechanism of how the bone eventually becomes damaged.


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## TPO (17 November 2010)

horserider said:



			Very interesting post. I have a horse that was diagnosed with navicular syndrome shortly after purchase. I was strongly advised by my vet and specialist farrier not to go barefoot, which I would have preferred if possible.However, she is now sound and in full work,and the behavioural problems she exhibited have ceased. My other two horses are barefoot, so I'm certainly not anti. 
Like you, I would be interested in seeing evidence that barefoot trimming is a better option, but wonder why the vet and farrier are so adamant, when the latest research is available to them.
		
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I was in a similar position to you.

Long story but the short version is ended up buying a QH with navic unvetted to save her. She was sound at the viewing but lame a week after arriving with us (from Liverpool). I had a different vet at the time who advised to keep her in work, shod in front, give her danolin and breed from her!! Needless to say not my vet any more and didnt follow his advice! 

It was because of her that I started looking into navicular in more depth which led me to barefoot. I tried an EP but her advice and trimming left a lot to be desired. I done everything I could for the transitioning, she had hoof boots and pads and her diet was modified, but she was lame/in pain/uncomfortable which could be attributed to being trimmed far too short IMO.

I changed vet practice and new vets advised wedged eggbars and gradually reduce to flat eggbars as due to foot angle she needed help to compensate and not to be left as nature intended. He said they would either work or she would say no to the change. Thankfully they worked and she returned sound but she was never brought into work at any point; field sound was enough for us. I lost her a year past at the end of this month just because after 2 good years it all seemed to catch up with her when the weather changed and I didnt want to see her suffer or uncomfortable. 

Then I had a TB mare who I lost in June due to very advanced navicular. The vet could offer no options other than denerving or doping her to the eyeballs and carrying on regardless; not options that I wished to pursue. She had good foot balance and excellent horn quality. I discussed trying barefoot or remedial shoeing with the vet but the conclusion was that there was nothing that could be done to repair the navicular bone as it was very advanced. 

The reason Im asking these questions now is that my TB had been in the vet hospital in March for a full work up as she wasnt quite right. She was passed sound with no issues and I was told to bring her into work. At that time, due to losing my QH, the TB was in livery outside of my usual vets catchment area. I returned, with a companion, to the old yard I rented and got my vets out in the June for a work up. Nerve blocks confirmed palmar foot pain so she was taken into their clinic for x-rays and a more thorough investigation. He estimated that the navicular must have been developing for at least 9mths so it had been missed by several people in that time. 

So just looking for another whip to flog myself with in that if it had been caught earlier and Id pursued barefoot/unshod could the navic bone have been repaired/regenerated and if so where is the evidence? In another post on here a user said the navic bone does regenerate itself so Im looking for proof of that as Ive had no joy finding anything even close to that on line.


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## criso (17 November 2010)

Hi TPO

Mine is one of the horses at rehabbed at Rockley (Frankie), if you don't want to drop them an email, have a look on the blog and search, as well as the rehab updates there are lots of articles discussing the theory of what they are doing.
This page is probably a good place to start.

http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/p/hoof-information.html
I'm sure you can find something there that takes you through the theory of how incorrect foot balance put undue stress on the soft tissues and supporting structures of the foot which in term leads to bone stress and deterioration.

There is also one of the horses there that did show improvement on an xray though he predates project dexter so isn't part of that.
http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2010/02/reversing-navicular-bone-damage.html


In our case he did not have any changes that showed up on an xray but the MRI showed soft tissue damage and  referred to the beginnings of bone stress caused by his other problems though no navicular disease yet.


In terms of follow up MRI's, the problem is that MRIs are so expensive (£1000+) and insurance doesn't cover follow ups  so you don't get a chance to compare before and after with any treatment. 

I would have liked 2 more MRIs, 1 after the box rest and tradtional treatments to see if there had been improvement and one after barefoot rehab to see how everything looked.


Frankie did have terrible feet, however what you don't see on the blog is how they looked  when he first went lame (about 18 months before I sent him there) his feet were not nearly as bad as they were after 18 months of on off box rest and remedial farriery.
Once things started going wrong we were on a downward spiral with his feet getting worse and none of the traditional approaches helped.  I started taking photos each time he was shod so I could track the improvement but instead ended up documenting the deterioration.

I think I'm probably fairly typical in that I went with a traditional approach first and it was when that clearly wasn't working that I looked for an alternative.  Given that, the horses you see on the blog tend to be the worst cases for which nothing else has worked.  So yes you see some pretty bad feet but others I saw there had feet that really didn't look too bad at all but what they do have in common is that they are all landing incorrectly and the ones that had fairly good feet to start off with grew even better feet.


As for my vet and farrier's opinion, they were very sceptical but at the time he was not even staying field sound so it was either that or pts, now it seems to have worked I think they regard Frankie as some bizarre freak of nature who has spontaneously grown  different hooves (both shape and hoof quality) and improved.  I guess you have to see it working again and again for yourself to change a long held belief.
It did amuse me the other day watching my farrier struggle to trim him as the horn is now so hard.


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## TPO (17 November 2010)

The bone repairing itself is from post no. 9 on this thread 

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=382370


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## criso (17 November 2010)

TPO you can't beat yourself up about it now.

We can all sit there and think if only and I often wonder where I would be now if I had spotted that Frankie's foot balance was off and addressed it before he went lame.
He's a horse that will always need careful management and while his feet are pretty good now, they would have been better if I'd taken him barefoot at 5 not 7.

What I take from it is any horse I have now and in the future will have a close eye (obsessive maybe ) kept on its landing and feet so that I can spot problems before they develop.

Just as an aside - you mention that after a bad experience you would be reluctant to use a trimmer again which is understandable.

I just wonder though what response I would get if I posted here that after a bad experience I would never use a farrier again.  I've had 3 that have left my horse lame after a shoe/trim.


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## TPO (17 November 2010)

Criso - thanks. Not so much beating myself up as still feel I made the right decision for her at the time; just wish it hadn't come to that. More want to beat up the chief vets at the vet school who missed it and the vet (at new yard) who seen her prior to that (and diagnosed KS which she incidently did not have)!! Also wishing something had been noticed 6-9mths prior to that day when perhaps more options would have been available.

I guess with a farrier I feel more confident that they have spent longer training and as an apprentice and if it should go wrong there are regulatory bodies that you can report back to. As far as I'm aware there are no laws governing trimmers.

I'm not anti-barefoot and its something I consider from time to time and would just like more information in general specifically in relation to navicular disease.

I just feel that if the navic bone can/does remodel and regenerate then surely there must be some proof as it would be a bit of a breakthrough to say the least, no?!


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## LucyPriory (17 November 2010)

TPO said:



			The bone repairing itself is from post no. 9 on this thread 

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=382370

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Ah yes - I know something of the Campero story.  He had navicular syndrome and has indeed was 24 hours from PTS when taken on.  He is I believe now very sound and very happy.

It is easy sometimes I think for a poster to a) write in haste and b) for everyone to have a slightly different take on what was written

I read the post referred to as simply asking why navicular bones can not be repaired, rather than claiming that they can be fixed through any particular approach.

What is now more often, although not universally recognised, is that the damage to the DDFT happens first, and this if not resolved, then impacts (and damages) the navicular bone.

Also recognised by some but not all is that if you radiographed 1,000's of horses you would find that there are huge variations in the appearance of the navicular bone and that an 'unusual' appearance is not directly linked with lameness.  It is just 'unusual'.

The barefoot approach seeks to restore a correct balance to the foot which relieves the causal factor which is damaging the DDFT.  However it is often more simple than that.

Navicular syndrome is often used instead of the equally popular phrase 'caudal heel pain'.  And in some people's experience this can be resolved very satisfactorily at home without injections, remedial shoeing or otherwise.

It is a minefield because the expertise is there, but not necessarily the wisdom to appreciate it.


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## TPO (17 November 2010)

Thank you for your reply LucyP.

Do you know of any cases of actual navicular disease that have been improved going barefoot? More so if foot was well balanced prior to removing the shoes.

Thanks again to everyone who's taken the time to reply.


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## LucyPriory (17 November 2010)

I am aware of improvements with horses having 'syndrome' but not 'disease'.

But just right now, I personally am majorly cautious regarding any diagnosis with the word 'navicular' in front because it has become a catch all for any pain in the foot which is a mystery.

It is often written/heard that 'sorry' is the hardest word to say

Closely followed IMO by the phrase 'I don't know'


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## criso (17 November 2010)

I know what you mean about spotting things earlier.  Mine was losing shoes fortnightly and I was worried about his feet.  My farrier told me I had just been unlucky and his feet were fine.  9 months later he was on total box rest with a guarded prognosis.

If you subscribe to the view that soft tissue damage (with us it wasn't only the ddft but other structures) precedes and results in bone damage then you are talking about different stages of progression of the same condition so making a differentiation between disease and syndrome can be misleading especially when you add in the flexibility with which different vets use the terms.  Plus as Lucypriory says the correlation between bone changes and lameness isn't as clear as you might expect.

What you do come to is at what point in that progression is the damage so advanced that  even if it is stopped at that point and helped, it will not be enough to make the horse comfortable and able to function.

One of the links I added refers to a horse whose navicular bone did improve but unless you have dozens of horse documented in controlled condtions showing proof one way or the other most vets/farriers are not going to question what they already believe and that documentation is a way off. 

Otherwise they have the attitude that mine have which is that I've been lucky.

Reading that back I realise alot of the professionals that have dealt with us talk alot about luck - good and bad.

Actually I use the same principle for vets, back people, saddle fitters and farriers or trimmers and that is go on personal recommendation rather than go on qualifications.  With trimmers you do have to do more checking to see who they are affilated with and what sort of standards and training they have gone through. I'm actually still using my old farrier because I have had advice about nutrition and exercise elsewhere and just need him to tidy every couple of months and none of the trimmers I was recommended covered my area.  

I've seem some vets I wouldn't let near my horse despite the weight of regulatory  bodies and letters after their name.  How may of us report professionals anyway or just get someone else.


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## amandap (17 November 2010)

The thing I've learned from my reading and study of holistic, non invasive barefoot approach (an as owner) is that if the hoof is helped to get truely healthy and stronger then many symptoms can be helped and improved. This of course requires looking at the horse as a whole, what he eats, how often and where he moves, his mental state etc. etc. All these things impact on the hoof and horses feet seem often to be protected so much that they don't develop enough with the added problems of reduced continual exercise, high sugar/carb energy diet and untreated things like deep thrush infection. All these interact and contribute to cause the horse to walk in a manner to compensate and so further protect any compromised or sore parts of the hoof by putting the foot on the ground in an unnatural way for the horse, think about how you walk if you've got a sore toe for eg. Loading the toe area seems to be a common way horses protect a sore back half of the foot,  so continues a cycle where the foot is not used/worked properly to build strength which further leads to poor development and problems possibly higher up in the body from unnatural tension coming from an unnatural gait.

So for me the often quoted 'no foot no horse' is so very true. The foot is a relection and cause of things wrong in the body. Hooves are part of the horse not something to be looked at in isolation... 

Apologies for the babble. 
I seem to remember reading somewhere that bone can remineralize to some degree _sometimes_ and also bone needs pressure/weight on it otherwise it begins to leach minerals. This is one of the reasons long bedrest for humans is mostly a thing of the past. So I'm also wondering how much the horse not weighting the back of it's foot also leads to bone demineralization from lack of normal pressures exerted when the horse is moving as he was meant to. Just thinking out load here btw.


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## cptrayes (17 November 2010)

QUOTE
Could anyone please elaborate as despite numerous searches I can't find any proof or evidence of this? Yes I&#8217;ve seen the videos and pictures but are there x-rays, scans etc showing improvement in the structure of the foot?

REPLY
I couldnt' care less whether my rehab has righted the damage to his navicular bones or not, and neither could he. The evidence is a sound horse, not the xrays. My vet once told me that in any large livery stable, around 50% of the horses, if xrayed, woudl show abnormalities in the navicular bone but very few of them will be unsound. The link between navicular damage and presence or severity of lameness is by no means conclusive.

QUOTE
I appreciate that going barefoot can help in many cases of lameness where the hoof is unbalanced and/or of poor quality. I can see how rebalancing the hoof by going barefoot can/could/would help with navicular syndrome when tendons and bursa, for example, are involved but how does it help with true navic disease? 

REPLY
I think you use "true navicular disease" to describe damage to the navicular bone, assuming that this damage is causing the lameness? In fact, in cases where MRI can be afforded, there is nearly always damage to soft tissues, which in research can be show to PRECEDE the navicular bone damage, which is only a symptom. From the rate of coming sound (often around 3 months) it's clear that the pain "navicular syndrome" horses are suffering is from soft tissue damage, not from the bones, no matter what the x rays show.


QUOTE
If the horse already has well balanced and healthy feet in shoes how/why/what does transitioning the horse to barefoot improve/change? 

REPLY
Because the feet which have been so beautifully balanced as a farrier wants to see them are NOT the feet which the horse wants to grow for himself to match the less than perfect legs and body which lie above them. Being forced to be in an unnatural, albiet perfect in our eyes, balance causes strains elsewhere in the foot and the body.

QUOTE
I&#8217;ve had discussions at great length with different vets and farriers about navicular disease. I&#8217;ve seen horses with navicular (don&#8217;t know if disease or syndrome) go barefoot and be crippled but the rider/owner has carried on regardless purely on the basis that it&#8217;s &#8220;natural&#8221; and therefore better and having read success stories from various websites believing it to be a &#8220;cure all&#8221;. This is not a reflection on being barefoot/unshod just shows how

REPLY
The people you have seen do this unfortunately do not know what they are doing   I get really mad when I hear about people like this because they bring barefoot into disrepute when it has so much to offer so many horses and owners in this country!


QUOTE
So are there x-rays out there? Has anyone got a horse that has dumbfounded vets with its recovery from navicular disease? 

There are dozens of us with horses that have dumbfounded the vets and farriers who said that they could do no more for them. So if the x-rays show change or not, who cares? My own had adequan, tildren, hyaluronic acid and bar shoes and was still too lame to provide him a quality of life which his owner felt was worth living. 


QUOTE 
What if the horse already has good, healthy & balanced feet?

REPLY
If the horse is lame with issues inside the foot, he DOESN'T have good healthy balanced feet no matter how pretty they look. Nic Barker has a number of examples of horses where they have grown what look like very unbalanced feet but are sound, whereas with "balanced" feet in shoes, they are unsound. The horse knows what it needs. Barefoot allows him to create the foot he needs, not the one we think he should have.


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## quizzie (17 November 2010)

The problem with all of this is  summed up in the phrase " clinical signs may not correlate with diagnostic findings" !!!.

      ie: nerve blocks may indicate a site of pain, but are far less precise in dictating which part of the foot is painful than was once believed......

           X-rays show bony changes, but little in the way of soft tissue detail......they do not tell you if the changes you can see are painful.....

           MRI scans show enormous detail, of both bone & soft tissue structures,  but again they do not tell you which changes are significant in the current episode of lameness, or which are old changes,....so interpretation is vital....& difficult!

      Because there are so many structures potentially involved in navicular "syndrome", there are many possible treatments & even more possible outcomes.....so at the end of the it is down to a combination of treating each case individually..........what some respond to, others won't, but inevitably "luck" will come into it

       Good luck with yours.....I have been there!


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## MerrySherryRider (17 November 2010)

Soooo, no one has produced x rays or MRI scans showing the before and 'after'  pictures of a horse treated by barefoot trimmers ?
 Evidence of correctly done research certainly does matter to owners of navicular horses. If no evidence has been produced, anecdotal accounts are of little help other than to give support.


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## amandap (17 November 2010)

Anecdotal and lame horses becoming sound actually is evidence erm, isn't it?

I think others have tried to explain the difficulty with diagnosis and that when bony changes have taken place there's no 'cure'...
Here's something from James Rooney you might find helpful. If you go to the homepage (linked at the bottom of the page) you'll get an idea of all his research.
http://www.horseshoes.com/farrierssites/sites/rooney/navicular/navicular.htm


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## cptrayes (17 November 2010)

horserider said:



			Soooo, no one has produced x rays or MRI scans showing the before and 'after'  pictures of a horse treated by barefoot trimmers ?
 Evidence of correctly done research certainly does matter to owners of navicular horses. If no evidence has been produced, anecdotal accounts are of little help other than to give support.
		
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It's as shame that this sounds so negative and even potentially sarcastic. The evidence you are looking for is either in peer review at the moment or will be shortly and should be published in the near future. For an interim report, look at Project Dexter on rockleyfarm.co.uk for the study which has been done in conjunction with Liverpool University.

But I repeat. There are now tens, dozens and quite probably more than a hundred horses in the "navicular" spectrum (in this country and certainly hundreds including the US) who are in full work barefoot when they had been failed by tildren, adequan, shockwave, irap, remedial shoeing, hyaluronic acid and probably more. Those horses are sound and I think you'll find that other navicular spectrum horse owners have found their stories "inspiring" rather than "little more than supportive", especially given just how many of them there now are and how many different people have been responsible for achieving what the vets and farriers of these horses could not. 

WHAT THE HELL DOES IT MATTER WHAT THE SCANS AND RADIOGRAPHS SAY WHEN THESE HORSES ARE ALIVE WHEN THEY WERE EXPECTED TO BE PUT TO SLEEP, AND FULLY WORKING WHEN THEY WERE EXPECTED TO BE NO MORE THAN A PADDOCK ORNAMENT?


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## MerrySherryRider (17 November 2010)

cptrayes said:



			WHAT THE HELL DOES IT MATTER WHAT THE SCANS AND RADIOGRAPHS SAY WHEN THESE HORSES ARE ALIVE WHEN THEY WERE EXPECTED TO BE PUT TO SLEEP, AND FULLY WORKING WHEN THEY WERE EXPECTED TO BE NO MORE THAN A PADDOCK ORNAMENT?
		
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Actually it does. Research scientifically verified is how treatments are decided. Its not just about horses today, but knowing how to treat in future. Thats why in the modern world we no longer go to sooth sayers and quacks for out medical care. Anecdotal evidence is simply not enough for decision making. There needs to be unbiased research. 
 I have no problem in showing the before and after scans of my bone tumour. Thanks to research in the field,I am sound again.


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## amandap (17 November 2010)

Fair enough but Xrays and MRI's are not necessarily diagnostic never mind able to be used as evidence of cure in navicular as far as I can find out.
'Navicular' isn't one disease/condition or syndrome is it? It will be interesting when Rockley's research is published but I rely on my common sense and what makes sense to me in the face of lack of conclusive evidence. I make the best decision I can for my horses based on this as well as professional advice. I'm not going to wait for a scientific study to explain what I see with my own eyes if my horse is suffering today!

I can understand your view horserider but for me science isn't the whole story or truth. Yet.

Mta. Science is done by Human's so is inherently fraught with Human perceptions and less than perfect objectivity anyway.


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## MerrySherryRider (17 November 2010)

amandap said:



			Anecdotal and lame horses becoming sound actually is evidence erm, isn't it?

I think others have tried to explain the difficulty with diagnosis and that when bony changes have taken place there's no 'cure'...
Here's something from James Rooney you might find helpful. If you go to the homepage (linked at the bottom of the page) you'll get an idea of all his research.
http://www.horseshoes.com/farrierssites/sites/rooney/navicular/navicular.htm

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Anecdotal cases are not evidence. 
I am familiar with james Rooney's hypotheses. Again, not evidence of a successful treatment, but observations based on his work, as he himself says.


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## henryhorn (17 November 2010)

Well we have had horses retire here with navicular who arrive lame and after 6 months are near enough sound 99% of the time. 
They get trimmed rarely (think every 3 to 6 months) and their feet wear naturally into a shape and go rock hard without shoes. 
I attribute their improvement down to dry ground with undulating pasture, their joints are moving much much more than they ever would on a normal flat field.  
Quite how it works other than constant exercise improves them I don't know, but I can promise you I have seen it happen at least 10 and more times over the years, so something works..


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## MerrySherryRider (17 November 2010)

amandap said:



			Fair enough but Xrays and MRI's are not necessarily diagnostic never mind able to be used as evidence of cure in navicular as far as I can find out.
'Navicular' isn't one disease/condition or syndrome is it? It will be interesting when Rockley's research is published but I rely on my common sense and what makes sense to me in the face of lack of conclusive evidence. I make the best decision I can for my horses based on this as well as professional advice. I'm not going to wait for a scientific study to explain what I see with my own eyes if my horse is suffering today!

I can understand your view horserider but for me science isn't the whole story or truth. Yet.

Mta. Science is done by Human's so is inherently fraught with Human perceptions and less than perfect objectivity anyway.
		
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I agree with much of what you say, and yes, as owners, we can only do what we think is best. Thats why I was interested in this thread. Happily my mare is now shod,sound and a totally different animal to 6 months ago, but I am looking to the future for her. I want her to be sound for many years to come which is why I want to know why so little evidence is forthcoming, while so many 'navicular' sites on the web are barefoot sites with nothing but nice stories. Maybe true,maybe embellished, maybe untrue. I don't know.
 Why no independant research advocating barefoot trimming for these horses ?


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## cptrayes (17 November 2010)

horserider said:



			Actually it does. Research scientifically verified is how treatments are decided. Its not just about horses today, but knowing how to treat in future. Thats why in the modern world we no longer go to sooth sayers and quacks for out medical care. Anecdotal evidence is simply not enough for decision making. There needs to be unbiased research. 
 I have no problem in showing the before and after scans of my bone tumour. Thanks to research in the field,I am sound again.
		
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This is rubbish, sorry. Aspirin works because it works. It has always worked, from when women were advised to chew willow bark for period pains hundreds of years ago. Just because something has not been tested does not mean that it does not work. Just because it is anecdotal does not mean it is incorrect. And remember,  there is no placebo effect with a lame horse. The treatment either worked and the horse is sound, or it did not and they remain unsound. For most cases this is outcome is binary, countable, independently verfiable and becomes evidence through sheer weight of numbers.

Plenty of people on this forum and elsewhere have gone against the advice of their vets and farriers and produced cures for navicular horses which the experts said could not be done. And they did this because of the anecdotal evidence you seem to so despise. 

This is impressive enough in its own right, but it is downright gobsmacking when you take into account that all these horses have already been failed by the best medicine and farriery that could be thrown at them. 

Why are you so intent on seeing scans? Why is seeing sound horses not enough? It's all that matters to the horse and its owner, what the devil does it matter what the scan shows if the horse is 100% sound? What owner in their right mind pays another £1000 for a repeat MRI on a sound horse?

There are dozens of us riding these condemned horses now. How many will it take to convince you that you should open your mind a little further?

If you would like to give me £200 I will gladly have my navicular rehab re-xrayed for you. As it is, he cost me hundreds of pounds in food and care to save from his appointment with a lethal injection and since he is now with new carers who are hacking him out for over two hours, jumping and competing well placed in dressage competitions, I fail to see any logic as to why I should pay for those xrays to satisfy someone's curiosity to see them when the horse is as sound as a pound. I'll show you the "before" xrays and the "after" horse with pleasure.

How many sound horses would satisfy you? A hundred. We have those. A thousand? You'll get those in time. Whether you want to believe it yet or not, this treatment works and more and more owners are turning to it. More impressively, it works when all else has failed. And that's more than anecdotal, sound horses who were previously unsound can be counted and independently verified. You pay the vet and they can come and tell me that my rehab is sound by all means. It is performance that counts, not pictures.

If you want research, how much money are you prepared to stump up for it? Because sure as hell no drug company is going to fund research into a cure that requires no medication and no clever bits of metal. So who will, you? We'd all love to see it done, so bring on that philanthropist millionaire that we need.


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## criso (17 November 2010)

I don't think there is any willingness to fund follow up MRI's for any treatments at the moment - they are just too expensive.  Today I got a questionnaire from the clinic where the MRI was done. They are carrying out research following up horses. No talk of MRIs or even vets assessment, just asking for my subjective assessment of his progress.  

As I said before it would have been fantastic to have various MRIs along the way to see exactly what has happened inside his foot but it wasn't financially possible.


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## Orangehorse (17 November 2010)

Didn't Ghost have some follow-up X rays?  I seem to remember something.

Ghost was one of the first horses at Rockley Farm,a horse that had been retired with navicular and then with treatment became sound and stayed sound and working until earlier this year when he was PTS at the age of 25 due to another condition,not foot related.


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## TPO (17 November 2010)

Thank you everyone for replying. I've certainly been given food for thought.

Nothing intelligent to add to the thread at this point (no point in changing a habit of a lifetime!). 

cptrayes - would be interested in the before x-rays if you had then and if you had any before and after pics or videos if you wouldn't mind sharing?

What would barefoot peeps do in this case: Navicular syndrome causing pressure to be exerted on DDFT that could be alleviated by rededially shoeing with a wedged eggbar? The horse was currently unshod and feet were being attended to by vet and a trimmer. Would you try the shoes to help the horse or would you persist with barefoot?

With my QH (halter bred, Impressive was her grandsire so small upright boxy feet) that was an option given to me. Trying her barefoot hadn't helped and that was approx 6mth period so had nothing to lose. The shoes instantly had her landing heel first and she was happy as larry in all 3 paces in the field. I don't regret the decision as it definitely helped her but I don't/didn't have strong feelings towards keeping her unshod.

On other not people who are pro-barefoot are very encourging of others to have an open mind and try it for themselves but does the same happen vice versa; would pro-barefoots ever consider remedial or otherwise shoeing for the long or short term to ease discomfort or for any other reason?

Thanks again for all the replies and the links


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## cptrayes (17 November 2010)

The pictures are all on my blog smartiesdiary.blogspot.com, starting late February, along with the full details of what it took to restore him to health. I'd be happy to ask his new people to show him to anyone who wants to see him, and I'm sure they'd be proud to do that as he is looking so superb these days.

"Barefoot peeps" would say why bother with the expensive egg bars, which might not work, when barefoot most probably will? 

Did you get your QH's feet with the frogs in contact with the floor? If not, the chances of successful rehab were hugely reduced as it did not have the correct work to build the back of the foot properly. 

Why would we consider remedial shoeing when it has already failed the horses that we are bringing sound without it. Mine had bar shoes and was still lame, why would I put another in bar shoes?

You don't seem to understand where we are coming from    ALL the rehabs that I know of have already been through the standard treatments, medical and shoes, and they have failed them. Why WOULD we want to consider remedial shoeing as an option when we know what we know about barefoot rehab of written off horses????


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## LucyPriory (17 November 2010)

TPO said:



			Thank you everyone for replying. I've certainly been given food for thought.

Nothing intelligent to add to the thread at this point (no point in changing a habit of a lifetime!). 

With my QH (halter bred, Impressive was her grandsire so small upright boxy feet)
		
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Not exactly a navicular thing - esp as boxy upright doesn't particularly mean navicular to me.

But I had an Impressive horse - feet were the oppositive of boxy.  But it did have HYPP - have you had yours tested?


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## TPO (17 November 2010)

Thanks, will have a look. 

Yes, QH's frog was in contact with the ground. Also used hoof boots with a pad as advised by EP.

Re the remedial shoeing question, in my case the horse had never been remedially shod. She's been shod in front only until we got her when she was 13. I then tried her unshod and had an EP out, changed her diet, walked her out as advised so on and so forth to no avail. Meanwhile changed vet practices and new one said the changing the angle with wedges would help her. I tried it and it worked for her in that it made her more comfortable, her movement freer(sp??) and she was sound on all surfaces. Possibly not a long term solution if I'd wanted to do anything with her but I only wanted her happy and comfortable for the rest of her days.

Just out of interest how would you advise going about changing to barefoot? Would you do it in winter with these wet, soggy, muddy conditions or wait for better ground initially? What else would you advise? Just wondering if what EP told me had any grain of usefulness in it.

Thanks again


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## TPO (17 November 2010)

LucyPriory said:



			Not exactly a navicular thing - esp as boxy upright doesn't particularly mean navicular to me.

But I had an Impressive horse - feet were the oppositive of boxy.  But it did have HYPP - have you had yours tested?
		
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What were your QH's feet like? Impressive was her grandsire so there were other influences. Can post a picture of feet after wedges on but fear being shot down - they did help her though. Lots of papers I've read have said that QHs are very prone to navic (don't know if syndrome or disease off hand) due to their boxy upright feet and over zealous trimming, especially of Halter horses.

Yes, she tested negative for HYPP. She had at least 2 foals before I got her and I seen one filly up for sale after I lost her so enquired about it. Long story short and the mare had just been put down aged 5 with navic so I'm guessing there is something genetic about it too. I know she had a colt but I lost track of him, he'd be rising 4 now, so don't know if he was affected. 

Does anyone know anymore about the genetics of navicular?


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## LucyPriory (17 November 2010)

Dish plates - cob feet stuck on the end of stubby little legs and a big backside 

QH suffer routine manky human intervention.  Biggest problem they have is chopping the bottoms off to make the feet appear small for the halter classes and shoeing from far too young so the feet don't develop properly.  

QH can have great feet, if they are managed correctly.

I actually do an Appy X Warmblood.  Both breeds I am routinely told have terrible feet.
(by owners)

And when I first met this horse he was rapidly heading into an adult life full of trouble because he was a big boy on foal feet long past when they should have become more mature.

However his carer is great - is hand walking him (he is young) 2/3 times a week and his feet are transforming into wonderfully tough structures.

As a bonus his whole outlook on life and behaviour have improved tremendously.  He loves his walks and is a sweetie to trim.  Which is just as well because he is huge.


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## cptrayes (17 November 2010)

HYPP guys??????? Translation please


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## TPO (17 November 2010)

cptrayes said:



			HYPP guys??????? Translation please 

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http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/hypp.php

Much better than my attempt at explaining it. 

Some of the images of it:

http://www.lotsofpinesfarm.com/stallions/bucky/buckyfrm1ds.jpg

http://www.bertonqh.com/skipforwb.jpg

You'll find more cases on Fugly blog

very sad what we do to animals


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## TarrSteps (18 November 2010)

LucyPriory said:



			I actually do an Appy X Warmblood.  Both breeds I am routinely told have terrible feet.
(by owners)
		
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Not singling you out but this is the part that's tricky about conversations like this . . .

Where I'm from and in my experience generally Appaloosas have super duper feet.  I'm sure some don't but I don't see how someone could generalise that for a whole breed.

Ditto "warmbloods" - a group that encompasses literally hundreds of thousands of horses, including Trakehners which traditionally have iron feet, although I knew one line which had consistently awful hoof quality.  But, then again, an old horse in that line won a couple of Olympic medals with two upright, mismatched feet while later on, much effort was spent making the others "look normal" as foals . . .

I'm not trying to be pedantic, honestly, it's just that "evidence" like this is so anecdotal.  Perhaps many, many horses have their feet "ruined" for a long time before they actually go lame and that's why the barefoot works to "cure" them.  But then it's not really a "cure" in the medical sense of treating a malady successfully, it's a return to normal - for the individual - function.

Personally, I've seen lots of horses "chucked out" on pretty severe going as a latch ditch attempt to see if they'll sort themselves out.  It's not an intentional attempt to address hoof growth, balance etc, it's the ultimate "turning away" on big pasture and a general agreement not to look at the problem for awhile. It's interesting how often their feet (even if that's not the obvious problem) look absolutely wretched initially and then grow from that point in a completely different way, eventually ending up functional if not "text book".  But it takes AGES in many cases and lots of people lose their nerve when things look messy.


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## cptrayes (18 November 2010)

TarrSteps said:



			I'm not trying to be pedantic, honestly, it's just that "evidence" like this is so anecdotal.  Perhaps many, many horses have their feet "ruined" for a long time before they actually go lame and that's why the barefoot works to "cure" them.  But then it's not really a "cure" in the medical sense of treating a malady successfully, it's a return to normal - for the individual - function.

.
		
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EXACTLY!

But if we said this we'd be accused of being evangelical fanatic anti-shoers 

The shoes damage the horses or allow them to damage themselves with soft tissue injuries. We remove them. The horse cures itself. (Many navicular cases start at 5 or 6 so we aren't talking that "long term" here.)

Just what we have been trying to tell you!


ps do you think diabetes isn't a disease just because people give themselves it by overeating? And that they are not "cured" of diabetes by a sensible eating plan? Medicine is not ALL about treatment with drugs.


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## lillith (18 November 2010)

On the science side it is difficult for me to swallow a lot of the anecdotal evidence because of the presentation. Many of the 'Case Studies' offer no facts, the degrees of lameness prior to treatment, the extent of the treatment tried/failed prior to barefoot, the changes in lifestyle aside from hoofcare are not listed. It makes it hard to pull together any information to get stats out of. Also I tend to find the cutsey language and overuse of adjectives puts me off a lot of case studies.


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## cptrayes (18 November 2010)

Lilith we aren't presenting "case studies". We are just, for the most part, ordinary people telling our stories. We aren't scientists! The case studies which ARE case studies are on Rockleyfarm.co.uk with just the information you are demanding. And if you are truly interested they are reported on week by week with photo and video on rockleyfarm.blogspot.com   It's an amazing resource for people who really want to see what happens to these horses and we are lucky that Nic Barker takes the time to do it. You might say she has plenty to gain in that she runs a commercial rehab yard but I can tell you that she does this for the good of the horse and she earned an order of magnitude more than she does now in her previous career.

The rest of us are just trying to give an alternative to people who have been told to put their  horse down, or retire it prematurely. As for the language we use, well I'm sorry but when a horse has been failed by £5000 of conventional treatment and the owner is about to have it put down,  I do feel, myself, that there is cause for some superlatives when I rode that horse around a six mile farm ride, and jumped, only just over twelve weeks later. If I could have bottled the look on my vet's face when he happened to bump into us at the end of the ride, I could sell it.

Are you prepared to stump up some money to pay for the research you are demanding? Because if you aren't, I'm struggling to see where it's going to come from and apart from Rockley, anecdotal is all you are going to get. How many anecdotes is it going to take being ridden around the world for the sceptics to start to believe?


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## amandap (18 November 2010)

TarrSteps said:



			I'm not trying to be pedantic, honestly, it's just that "evidence" like this is so anecdotal.  Perhaps many, many horses have their feet "ruined" for a long time before they actually go lame and that's why the barefoot works to "cure" them.  But then it's not really a "cure" in the medical sense of treating a malady successfully, it's a return to normal - for the individual - function.
		
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My understanding is that is exactly what is going on. These are not 'miracle cures' they are just allowing the horse to be a real horse if you like.


TarrSteps said:



			Personally, I've seen lots of horses "chucked out" on pretty severe going as a latch ditch attempt to see if they'll sort themselves out.  It's not an intentional attempt to address hoof growth, balance etc, it's the ultimate "turning away" on big pasture and a general agreement not to look at the problem for awhile. It's interesting how often their feet (even if that's not the obvious problem) look absolutely wretched initially and then grow from that point in a completely different way, eventually ending up functional if not "text book".  But it takes AGES in many cases and lots of people lose their nerve when things look messy.
		
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It might takes ages and I have a feeling the 'severe going' may be a factor here but why leave it to take ages when if you can replicate conditions of low stress to the horse (I mean all stress here both physical and mental) and allow and promote full functioning of the hooves then surely it's better for the horses...

The way I see all this is if we look at what we do to horses from birth and see how often this is working against the horse and only for our benefit then a whole new perpective on all this opens up...

Lol cutesy is bad of course. We have to be strict, unfeeling, matter of fact do we? I find that boring and uninteresting. The emotional part of all this for the horse and us is important imo.
Anecdoatal evidence may not be convincing or 'scientific' for some, but the fact still remains that there are increasing numbers of written off horses around the world alive and happy that would otherwise have been pts.


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## Orangehorse (18 November 2010)

I don't think that the OP realises that these "cured" horses have reached the end of the road from previous treatments.  Either they would be retired to the field if sound enough or PTS.  They are being offered no hope of ever being ridden and in hard work again.  The vet hasn't said "Turn him out and we will have another look in 6 months  time."  They are saying "Do you want me to shoot him?" or words to that effect.  They have reached the end of the line with no hope at all.

Rockley Farm, and others, only take on horses that they have X rays for.  That is presumably so they don't try to rehab a horse with extensive bone damage that could not be repaired.  These horses are returning to full work.  The horses don't care about X rays, they only care that they can trot around and not be in pain, or go hunting again, or eventing or endurance rides.  How much evidence does anyone need?

It would certainly be an interesting research project, but I think you might find that some of this has been done in the USA already.


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## amandap (18 November 2010)

This may be 'cutesy' to some but this man was my inspiration when I first took the shoes off two horses I had bought and was floundering. An old 1992 article from a Farrier's Journal in USA, now on line.
ihttp://www.aanhcp.net/SpiritoftheNaturalHorse.pdf

Note the incongruous adverts on the same pages.


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## TPO (18 November 2010)

ORANGEHORSE said:



			I don't think that the OP realises that these "cured" horses have reached the end of the road from previous treatments.  Either they would be retired to the field if sound enough or PTS.  They are being offered no hope of ever being ridden and in hard work again.  The vet hasn't said "Turn him out and we will have another look in 6 months  time."  They are saying "Do you want me to shoot him?" or words to that effect.  They have reached the end of the line with no hope at all.

Rockley Farm, and others, only take on horses that they have X rays for.  That is presumably so they don't try to rehab a horse with extensive bone damage that could not be repaired.  These horses are returning to full work.  The horses don't care about X rays, they only care that they can trot around and not be in pain, or go hunting again, or eventing or endurance rides.  How much evidence does anyone need?

It would certainly be an interesting research project, but I think you might find that some of this has been done in the USA already.
		
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Don't know why this was aimed at me but I can understand that this is a sensitive subject for some.

My point is that I'm well aware of the "end of the road" scenario. In the case of some posters on this thread they, and others they know, have had horses at this point and rehabbed them back to soundness and full work by going barefoot and altering their diet if I've understood correctly.

I was asking if anyone had any scientic proof of the changes in the horse's structure that perhaps how going barefoot had enabled repairs to take place and/or any boney changes. 

I appreciate that repeat MRIs are out of reach of most owners and not a part of insurance afaik but I thought most people with navic horses might have had x-rays and/or ultra sound scans showing changes - for good or bad. It appears from some replies on here others would like to see this information.

It's not a "dig" at barefoot or anything of the sort; it's simply try to aquire further information and resources.

Perhaps just me but I would have thought at least one vet would have channelled their amazement at the recovery into something productive (said scans, x-rays, MRI) so that if they come to that point with another client's horse they have another proven option available.

I don't know if that makes as much sense written out as it did in my head. Probably not!


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## TPO (18 November 2010)

amandap said:



			This may be 'cutesy' to some but this man was my inspiration when I first took the shoes off two horses I had bought and was floundering. An old 1992 article from a Farrier's Journal in USA, now on line.
ihttp://www.aanhcp.net/SpiritoftheNaturalHorse.pdf

Note the incongruous adverts on the same pages.

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Thank you for the link.

How do horses in the wetter climates cope with having their shoes taken off? What are the differences in their feet compared to others who live in hotter climates with harder ground? Obviously the horses in his article had very hard ground to content with but how do horses over here adapt considering our ground conditions? Especially in soggy Scotland!

I worked with feral horses in Oz and their feet were tough as nails although they insisted on shoeing all the horses who were in work. It took me 2 hours to put my first shoe on and that was after tubbing the hour for ages. I never understood why when their feet were so hard naturally they'd bother shoeing them but they did and rules were rules there.


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## criso (18 November 2010)

TPO said:



			Perhaps just me but I would have thought at least one vet would have channelled their amazement at the recovery into something productive (said scans, x-rays, MRI) so that if they come to that point with another client's horse they have another proven option available.
		
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It would appear not and the same applies if they horse comes right from other treatments, they trot them up, put them on a circle on the lunge and see how they cope with work.  

That's a question for the vets I guess.

BTW you may want to look at today's blog for Rockley as it talks about the difficulty in getting funding for repeat scans.


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## amandap (18 November 2010)

TPO said:



			Thank you for the link.

How do horses in the wetter climates cope with having their shoes taken off? What are the differences in their feet compared to others who live in hotter climates with harder ground? Obviously the horses in his article had very hard ground to content with but how do horses over here adapt considering our ground conditions? Especially in soggy Scotland!
		
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It _seems_ that feet in wetter, softer climes seem to be bigger (??flared) and flatter. Domestic horses are often helped by dry areas in which to spend part of the day. The main thing (as always) seems to get the diet right and enough movement. Of course those feet wont be reproduced unless the horse lives and works on similar ground with similar diet. Horses feet adapt to where they live and work as well as their diet. This is my understanding from my reading.
You might find this link interesting. http://www.tribeequus.com/ Photos of hooves of feral horses  in different environments.
I suppose having a look at wild Exmoor feet etc. in England will give clues to adaption in wetter climes.


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## nicbarker (18 November 2010)

TPO, you've raised some very fair questions - I don't come on here often but as the previous poster pointed out, I've tried to answer the ones that relate to Rockley Farm here: http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2010/11/of-research-and-soundness.html

Hope this helps, and thanks to all on here who have been so supportive 

ETA: Just seen your last query, and we are also VERY wet up here on Exmoor ;-)


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## Orangehorse (18 November 2010)

Sorry about that OP, your questions are valid.  

I know one of the horses that was rehabed and literally that was what happened.  It was lame in the field, maxed out its £5000 worth of insurance, went 30 miles to have remedial farriery at an equine hospital every 6 weeks and was just as lame at the end of the year as at the beginning.  The vet said that she would PTS as she couldn't offer any more treatment.

Owner sent it for rehab, and within a matter of weeks it was sound and working and it has returned to be a successful endurance horse.  Not to sure what the vet said when she saw it again, alive and well and sound (I get the feeling she wasn't that enthusiastic).  Next time I see the owner I will  ask if she had any follow up X rays.


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## Luciejjkk (18 November 2010)

I havent read all the replies but my horse has navicular and I have tried literally every treatment available for it and all have had little/no effect whatsoever.
He was described by one of my vets as 6/10ths lame at his worst and was no where near field sound.  I couldnt put him out for long periods of time as he literally would come in crippled.  He hated being stuck in his stable but could not go out for sustained periods, it was a catch 22 situation really.
He is currently rehabbing at Rockley Farm and when he arrived there he was described by my other vet as being anywhere between 1-5/10ths lame depending on surface/speed etc.  He has now been there for a month and a half and is showing great improvement.

All I know is that my horse was in a lot of pain and without the option Rockley Farm offered me, he probably would not be here right now.


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## cptrayes (18 November 2010)

TPO said:



			It appears from some replies on here others would like to see this information.


Perhaps just me but I would have thought at least one vet would have channelled their amazement at the recovery into something productive (said scans, x-rays, MRI) so that if they come to that point with another client's horse they have another proven option available.

!
		
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We'd all love to see scans and MRI's. Bring on someone with a bottomless purse  !!

There is nothing for a vet to gain by using a barefoot rehab. When I told an old country vet about it he said "you'll put us out of business".

A typical navic case will max out a £5000 insurance claim entirely in vet fees. Now that we shoe 52 weeks a year, the disease is so common that treatments account for a substantial proportion of the income of any practice. Is it any wonder that no vet so far has wanted to stump up any free scans to prove barefoot is a cure?


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## TarrSteps (18 November 2010)

amandap said:



			It might takes ages and I have a feeling the 'severe going' may be a factor here but why leave it to take ages when if you can replicate conditions of low stress to the horse (I mean all stress here both physical and mental) and allow and promote full functioning of the hooves then surely it's better for the horses...
		
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To be fair, by "ages" I do mean about the time it would take a horse to grow an entire new foot, so pretty much the time "no hope" horses would usually be turned out for anyway before anyone expected any change.

And this was in parts of the world (and at a time) when that approach was much more "in fashion", if only because we had far fewer other options.  On the "stress" side of it, the horses were usually relatively used to the conditions anyway.  I knew someone who bred good racehorses that were literally raised on the side of a mountain out 24/7 with minimal care until they went into training and/or if they were out of work.  If you told people to do that now their heads would explode.

I guess my point was this sort of situation is what the "new" idea of track paddocks etc seeks to replicate.  These horses walked a long way, both turned out and ridden, on rough terrain, and ate relatively little hard feed.  Many people did their own trimming (NOT recommending this, it was born of necessity, but nor did the majority constantly lame their horses either) and generally the horses lived what people here and now would consider a very hard life.  Having been exposed to this and seen how many of these horses seemed to thrive in the circumstances (for which, to be fair, they were born and bred), I am a little less convinced progress has always been for the horses' good.  Don't get me wrong, there are many, many improvements to be had now, but by many people standards horses ridden up the sides of mountains with no shoes or very basic shoeing should have all been crocked and they simply weren't.


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## TarrSteps (18 November 2010)

cptrayes said:



			Just what we have been trying to tell you!


ps do you think diabetes isn't a disease just because people give themselves it by overeating? And that they are not "cured" of diabetes by a sensible eating plan? Medicine is not ALL about treatment with drugs.
		
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Um, you've not been trying to tell ME.   I just got here and I haven't argued with you.  I've ridden lots of horses without shoes but mostly because I'm cheap.   (That's a joke, btw.  Why fix what ain't broken.  )

But I also understand enough about the industry (and people) to know there's no sense trying to convince people of anything, just present the evidence (anecdotal or otherwise) and let them sort themselves out.  There are many, many practices that aren't technically speaking, in the horses' best interests, but sometimes that seems to be as much about situation and perception as anything else.


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## TPO (18 November 2010)

nicbarker said:



			TPO, you've raised some very fair questions - I don't come on here often but as the previous poster pointed out, I've tried to answer the ones that relate to Rockley Farm here: http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2010/11/of-research-and-soundness.html

Hope this helps, and thanks to all on here who have been so supportive 

ETA: Just seen your last query, and we are also VERY wet up here on Exmoor ;-)
		
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Hi. Thanks for taking the time out to reply on here and write a blog entry. 

The only reason I didn't email Rockley, or any other rehab establishment, is that I felt I didn't have any exact questions. As you can no doubt tell from my previous posts I don't have a firm view point and was just looking to learn more. It wasn't my intention to "out" you on a forum; I was just using the forum as a means to gather more information, experience and view points from others who undoubtedly know more than me. 

I noticed in your blog you mentioned some unshod horses came to you. Was that with navicular? Was it purely poor foot balance that caused it; if not what else was a contribution factor in your opinion?

Have you ever had a horse, shod or not, come to you that couldn't/didn't return sound or sound enough to be comfortable? I know you've had a lot of sucesses but sometimes there is more to be learnt from the perceived "failures"? By "you" I don't mean purely Rockley, just anyone with experience of barefoot rehab.

RE the scans. I get that people don't want to/can't afford to shell out for regular scans but wouldn't this be the norm for tendon injuries (I know not strictly navic and I'm veering off subject)? It was my understanding that a vet would scan a tendon once swelling subsided, then again a set period later and if, for example, the horse was to be given 12mths of Dr. Green it would be rescanned before bringing back into work. Now my understanding could be very wrong so this would invalid the forthcoming questions but hey ho! If this IS somewhere around the norm then are there any scans showing faster/better healing when horses are rehabbed barefoot? I know every horse is an individual as are the injuries they've suffered but I just think if the information was available it would be very interesting.

Thanks again to everyone who has taken the time to reply even thought at times it have veered off topic. I'm finding it all very interesting so thank you again

PS - can anyone recommend further reading on this topic?

PPS - is there a different way of transitioning horses when they are on wet (muddy) ground?


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## soulfull (18 November 2010)

Interesting thread.  My horse is barefoot but trimmed by regular farrier.

There have been so many threads on whether to let someone who isn't a qualified farrier trim horses feet and an awful lot of people are afraid to move away from this.  Its understandable as like any other practioner in any field  you just don't know if they are REALLY any good.

In years gone by I have had different vet/farrier/physios/chiros/dentists  ALL qualified AND recommended  only to find they were not so good after all and it is my horse that suffered despite me trying to do the best I could!!

So how on earth am I supposed to make this move safely for my horse

I've tried to look on UKNHCP  but says the webpage needs to renew its subscription (not a good sign)  I did manage to find a list of registered trimmers ( no one covers Staffs)  and a copy of the training schedule.

However I have also heard bad reports on another site that argue there is not enough training and qualifications gained through this.

So how the heck am I supposed to decide?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????


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## Oberon (18 November 2010)

This is the UKNHCP site http://www.uknhcp.org.uk/

I think you stumbled upon the old one.

The only way to find a good trimmer is on reputation. Not all trimmers (like farriers) are greated equal.


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## soulfull (18 November 2010)

Oberon said:



			This is the UKNHCP site http://www.uknhcp.org.uk/

I think you stumbled upon the old one.

The only way to find a good trimmer is on reputation. Not all trimmers (like farriers) are greated equal.
		
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oh I think I followed link from Rockleys

yes but I don't know anyone in my area who is barefoot and doesn't have a regular farrier


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## Orangehorse (18 November 2010)

TarrSteps the conditions you describe for the young TBs - rocky, undulating land, sparse feed and lots of exercise are EXACTLY the right conditions to produce good strong feet.

I went to a weekend clinic a few years ago with Pete Ramey from the USA who was among the first "barefoot" advocates (and he was a farrier first) who described the above as the ideal to produce good feet. 

It was theory only and no, we didn't do any trimming.  It was very intense and a huge amount to absorb.  And I was sitting next to a lady who was nearly in tears as she had lost a horse to navicular at the age of 10 and Pete described the conventional treatment and how the disease progressed - the remedial shoes, the various treatments and the inevitable progressive deterioration.  Which was exactly what had happened to her horse.  He has been rehabing horses for years.  He used to go to the  local abbatoir and buy up horses with foot problems with the aim of rehabing them and over the years he had lots of success.  The only one he didn't succeed with was one that turned out to have extensive bone damage and he mentioned that one as a warning to anyone trying this to have good X rays first to see what you are dealing with.  I expect there is lots of info on his website.

Think of most horse studs - nice, level grass fields which is about the opposite of what a growing foot needs.  The fact that many TBs are shod for racing from a very young age doesn't help with their foot development either.  Nor does all the year round shoeing of any horse.


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## Oberon (18 November 2010)

I was thinking more about the online community.

If you find a local trimmer and make enquiries.......

I have been using UKNHCP trimmers for the last 5 years, so I feel confident about their trimmers.


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## cptrayes (18 November 2010)

TPO rescanning a foot requires MRI and costs £1000-1500  rescanning a tendon is done with ultrasound and costs under £100. Many insurance companies won't pay the full costs of one MRI never mind repeats 

It's the cost preventing ordinary owners from providing more information. I'd love to see my rehabs xrays but I can't justify another £200 to satisfy my curiosity. I'd love to have had him MRI'd but pigs might fly


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## Oberon (18 November 2010)

http://www.progressivehorse.co.uk/html/shoko.html

My livery mate would love to get Schoko re-scanned or Xrayed but after all they've been through, they just can't justify the cost (he needs a new saddle now too!).

The horse is sound and that is that. "Don't call the vet out if not needed and don't go looking for trouble" 

I agree - it is frustrating that the lack of empirical evidence means a lack of recognition from other equine professionals and so horses continue to suffer.


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## spookypony (19 November 2010)

TPO said:



			PPS - is there a different way of transitioning horses when they are on wet (muddy) ground?
		
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Soggy Scotland resident here! 

My pony came to me with very flared feet, lots of separation, and a large crack from far-too-long toes. He lives in a field that tends to be very muddy. My trimmer recommended lots of roadwork (sensibly built up), and  we're fortunate in that we have loads of good hacking trails, many of which are surfaced with crushed granite. The idea is to make sure that he spends a good amount of time exercising out of the mud. It seems to have worked!

Since then, a significant portion of the yard's population has gone barefoot. Some of the horses are youngsters that were never shod, and they've not had any problems that I know of. However, there are two TBs, whose feet were not good at all before transitioning. They both got front boots and loads of hacking on the hard tracks, and now have much better feet.

A far bigger problem than the mud, is the grass! It's former cattle pasture, and causes balloonitis if my pony so much as looks at it sideways.


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## nicbarker (19 November 2010)

Here's an update for you, TPO:

http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2010/11/another-day-another-update-happy-friday_19.html

 - and you can find answers to some of your questions here, which shows successes AND failures: http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/p/research-results.html

If you search the blog for a particular horse, you will find its photos and video clips which will tell you  more.


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## TPO (19 November 2010)

cptrayes said:



			TPO rescanning a foot requires MRI and costs £1000-1500  rescanning a tendon is done with ultrasound and costs under £100. Many insurance companies won't pay the full costs of one MRI never mind repeats 

It's the cost preventing ordinary owners from providing more information. I'd love to see my rehabs xrays but I can't justify another £200 to satisfy my curiosity. I'd love to have had him MRI'd but pigs might fly 

Click to expand...

Sorry Cptrayes; you must feel like you're banging your head off a brick wall! 

In my post to which the above is a reply I was meaning an ultrasound scan for a tendon where the horse has been rehabbed barefoot. It was my understanding that regular scannings of tendons were the norm and was wondering if there was any evidence pointing to faster (better?) recovery when the horse was barefoot. Hard to prove I know as every horse and injury is unique. Was just thinking it was the one instance where there was likely to be quite a few (slightly more affordable) scans.


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## amandap (19 November 2010)

spookypony, I love that term 'balloonitis'!  Covers 'farty pants' (windy effects of grass) too.

Reading... I recommend Jaime Jackson 'The Natural Horse', 'Founder  Prevention and cure the Natural Way'
Pete Ramey 'Making Natural Hoofcare work for you'.
I highly recommend Pete Ramey's DVD series 'Under the Horse'. Sadly it is pricey but worth every penny imo.


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## criso (19 November 2010)

TPO
The sort of tendon injuries that we are talking about here are located right inside the hoof capsule close to the navicular bone ( hence them getting lumped under the term navicular syndrome by some vets)
The hoof itself prevents ultrasound being used.


For frankie's particular injury ( inflammation of the ddft dsil and collateral ligaments) only an MRI will do.


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## TPO (19 November 2010)

criso said:



			TPO
The sort of tendon injuries that we are talking about here are located right inside the hoof capsule close to the navicular bone ( hence them getting lumped under the term navicular syndrome by some vets)
The hoof itself prevents ultrasound being used.


For frankie's particular injury ( inflammation of the ddft dsil and collateral ligaments) only an MRI will do.
		
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Sorry I'm clearly talking in riddles! I'm meaning injuries that you can use ultra sound for, not navic related or within the hoof capsule. Like a tear in the DDFT or similar.


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## criso (19 November 2010)

The horses that I am aware of at Rockley that had ddft tears (as opposed to strain as in our case) had them in the part of the ddft inside the hoof.

Whether or not barefoot would help other sorts of injuries, I would think it's outside the scope of the project.


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## cptrayes (19 November 2010)

TPO said:



			Sorry Cptrayes; you must feel like you're banging your head off a brick wall!
		
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Happy to keep banging as long as there is one owner out there who might read and realise that they don't have to put their horse to sleep   Got a thick head anyways.


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## fayley (20 November 2010)

cptrayes said:



			Happy to keep banging as long as there is one owner out there who might read and realise that they don't have to put their horse to sleep   Got a thick head anyways.
		
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Keep on banging!! It was as a direct result of a similar discussion on the H&H forum that I found out about Rockley Farm after googling ddft injury. My mare is now in her 2nd week at Rockley and although very lame (she went straight from 10 months box rest) she is already a much happier and saner mare, and now has the potential to start recovering, something I had honestly starting to loose hope of happening.

So you and others like you have already started the ripples needed to cause a tidal wave, and I for one am very grateful. I am sure if my mare could add her comments she would also say a huge thank you, not only to Nic and the work she is doing but to those happy to stick their necks out to spread the word and risk the negative comments that are bound to come their way along with the good.

fx


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## lillith (22 November 2010)

I am aware that a lot of blogs/stories on H&H are simply owners looking to share their experiences, by case studies I was refering to a lot of the stories under 'Case Studies' tabs on barefoot websites. I am aware of rockley farm and am keeping an eye on the research, it is fantastic. 

Personaly I like the concept, instinctively it 'feels' right and I would certainly try it if I had a horse of my own at the moment. However I find it difficult to recommend anything to someone else without more detailed back up, a lot of the websites seem to make a lot of claims with no references as to where the information came from - I am aware that they are websites not papers but it would be nice to know where they are getting their facts from.


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## amandap (22 November 2010)

lillith said:



  I am aware that they are websites not papers but it would be nice to know where they are getting their facts from.
		
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'Facts' is such a difficult word isn't it. 

I suggest you google.
Jaime Jackson, K.C. La Pierre, Dr Robert Bowker, Prof Chris Pollitt, Kathryn Watts, Dr Elleanor Kellon for starters. All these people have done various types of research, some of it observational yes but not all of it.


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