# Why don't people let their horses drop off in winter?



## NellRosk (21 December 2013)

I see so many threads in feeding about how to maintain weight in winter. I'm completely the opposite, got 2 fatties so I'm perfectly happy to let them lose a bit over winter. Makes my job of keeping them trim in summer a lot easier. Obviously I'm not talking about oldies or poor doers, but people with natives or good doers... Do any of you let your horses naturally lose weight in winter? Surely this is what they do in the wild? (Just to add mine get ad lib haylage but I do not/ will not give them masses of hard feed to maintain weight).


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## Amymay (21 December 2013)

No. I aim to maintain a consistent weight throughout the year.


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## NellRosk (21 December 2013)

amymay said:



			No. I aim to maintain a consistent weight throughout the year.
		
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But isn't it the natural way of things to put on weight in summer then lose it in winter?


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## Hippona (21 December 2013)

I let mine drop off in winter too.
As nature intended...


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## Amymay (21 December 2013)

NellRosk said:



			But isn't it the natural way of things to put on weight in summer then lose it in winter?
		
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I suppose it is. But our horses don't need to store fat in order to survive winter.

And regardless,  horses are not kept naturaly. We've domesticated them.


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## JillA (21 December 2013)

NellRosk said:



			But isn't it the natural way of things to put on weight in summer then lose it in winter?
		
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 The thing is the natural way of things is for horses to not survive much past their late teens. We aim to keep them fit and healthy way beyond that, and to do that they need fibre for gut health, protein for immune system and soft tissue and minerals etc for hoof health. Not easy to do that on short enough rations to allow them to drop condition through winter, although it is possible with careful diet planning.


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## MerrySherryRider (21 December 2013)

In the wild, horses  may drop weight because forage is scarce and winter becomes a time of survival. No need for owners to replicate conditions in the wild- because we can't. No point.

Better to maintain a good constant through the year. A good doer on spring grass can whack those kgs back on with the blink of an eye anyway. 

Now if you're talking about diet plans for fatties, then that's a different thing altogether.


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## Hippona (21 December 2013)

amymay said:



			I suppose it is. But our horses don't need to store fat in order to survive winter.

And regardless,  horses are not kept naturaly. We've domesticated them.
		
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Not when they're over rugged and over fed, no they don't.

I don't allow mine to get fat in summer, but I do allow them to drop weight in winter.
I also don't clip or rug...I let them them get hairy. Yes...they are domesticated but I like to keep them as close to "natural" as possible. 
But then again I don't hunt or compete, they don't need to be clipped rugged and stuffed full of cereals either.


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## Goldenstar (21 December 2013)

My horses that hunt are at about their slimmest coming out do Christmas .
Which makes sense because the are working .
If your horse is fat winter is a great time to get on top of things but if your horse does consistent work all year there should be no reason for large ups and downs in wieght.


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## NellRosk (21 December 2013)

JillA said:



			The thing is the natural way of things is for horses to not survive much past their late teens. We aim to keep them fit and healthy way beyond that, and to do that they need fibre for gut health, protein for immune system and soft tissue and minerals etc for hoof health. Not easy to do that on short enough rations to allow them to drop condition through winter, although it is possible with careful diet planning.
		
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What, I never said reduced rations. My post says ad lib haylage. I just don't feel the need to pump them full of conditioning hard feed to prevent them losing weight. They naturally lose a few kilos over winter and then naturally put it back on in summer when the grass is better.


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## NellRosk (21 December 2013)

Hippona said:



			Not when they're over rugged and over fed, no they don't.

I don't allow mine to get fat in summer, but I do allow them to drop weight in winter.
I also don't clip or rug...I let them them get hairy. Yes...they are domesticated but I like to keep them as close to "natural" as possible. 
But then again I don't hunt or compete, they don't need to be clipped rugged and stuffed full of cereals either.
		
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This ^


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## Hippona (21 December 2013)

Mine get ad lib hay.....plus vits n mins


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## NellRosk (21 December 2013)

Hippona said:



			Mine get ad lib hay.....plus vits n mins
		
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Yep same  and one gets a joint supp!


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## Copperpot (21 December 2013)

Mine got a bit fat over summer due to being out of work. I'm going to let him loose it over winter.


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## NellRosk (21 December 2013)

Copperpot said:



			Mine got a bit fat over summer due to being out of work. I'm going to let him loose it over winter.
		
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Same for one of mine too. It makes sense for me


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## Amymay (21 December 2013)

Hippona said:



			Not when they're over rugged and over fed, no they don't.

I don't allow mine to get fat in summer, but I do allow them to drop weight in winter.
I also don't clip or rug...I let them them get hairy. Yes...they are domesticated but I like to keep them as close to "natural" as possible. 
But then again I don't hunt or compete, they don't need to be clipped rugged and stuffed full of cereals either.
		
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My horses have a job and work harder in the winter than the summer. So the need feeding, clipping and rugging.

If your horses are not worked then I can understand you not clipping, rugging and feeing etc. 

How do you prevent them getting fat in the summer?


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## Red-1 (21 December 2013)

My horse does his hardest work in summer, eventing, so is at his slimmest then. Personally I prefer him more rounded in winter to have a bit of protection against the cold, while he is in lighter work.

To an outsider I think he would not look so different summer or winter, when the spring grass comes so does his work increase, so any weight variation is minimal anyway. It is more about him being more squishy in winter and toned in summer!


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## NellRosk (21 December 2013)

amymay said:



			How do you prevent them getting fat in the summer?
		
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Muzzle/ restrict grazing. Whatever I do though they creep up by a few kgs on the weigh tape. Which I'm fine with because they lose it come winter.


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## Cortez (21 December 2013)

I think if you are "using" the hunger of winter to repair the negligence of allowing horses to become too fat in summer, then perhaps a revision of feeding regime is in order. I aim to keep mine at a constant weight year round.


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## NellRosk (21 December 2013)

Red-1 said:



			My horse does his hardest work in summer, eventing, so is at his slimmest then. Personally I prefer him more rounded in winter to have a bit of protection against the cold, while he is in lighter work.

To an outsider I think he would not look so different summer or winter, when the spring grass comes so does his work increase, so any weight variation is minimal anyway. It is more about him being more squishy in winter and toned in summer!
		
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Ooh lucky you, mine is more squishy in summer!!!


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## NellRosk (21 December 2013)

Cortez said:



			I think if you are "using" the hunger of winter to repair the negligence of allowing horses to become too fat in summer, then perhaps a revision of feeding regime is in order. I aim to keep mine at a constant weight year round.
		
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Yes that's exactly what I'm doing   no feed bills for me in winter I'll just starve the *******!!


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## Amymay (21 December 2013)

NellRosk said:



			Muzzle/ restrict grazing. Whatever I do though they creep up by a few kgs on the weigh tape. Which I'm fine with because they lose it come winter.
		
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So not kept terribly naturally then...


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## NellRosk (21 December 2013)

amymay said:



			So not kept terribly naturally then...
		
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Either that or laminitis. I aim to keep them as naturally as I can with the resources I have. So feed them a natural forage based diet which doesn't include loads of cereals/ starch to fatten them up!


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## Amymay (21 December 2013)

Cortez said:



			I think if you are "using" the hunger of winter to repair the negligence of allowing horses to become too fat in summer, then perhaps a revision of feeding regime is in order. I aim to keep mine at a constant weight year round.
		
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This might be the single most important post I've ever read on hho.


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## dollyanna (21 December 2013)

Mine are still young so still developing our management, but they are fed adlib through the winter but are out 24/7, they are allowed to drop weight but I do monitor it to keep an eye on anything unusual. In the summer they are on a track and allowed to put on some weight but I try not to let it get too much - I don't mind them being a bit podgy going into winter but not fat fat. But mine aren't in work and are still growing, so will have to see how it works when work has to be taken into account. I hope to keep them relatively unclipped so I can get away with no rugs for as long as I possibly can. From my point of view I have seen more problems caused by ponies getting fat in summer, not losing weight in winter (due to rugs and feeding), getting more fat, still not losing weight and ending up with chronic weight issues and metabolic difficulties. I am trying to maintain them year to year rather than the same all year round, so at least they won't get fatter year after year.


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## Amymay (21 December 2013)

NellRosk said:



			So feed them a natural forage based diet which doesn't include loads of cereals/ starch to fatten them up!
		
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And you assume that those of us feeding hard feeds are feeding a starchy, cereal based diet? And actually need to 'fatten' them up...


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## ruth83 (21 December 2013)

I think the straightforward answer to the question posed in the thread title is that people are worried others will think they are not looking after their horses correctly.


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## Arizahn (21 December 2013)

Am I really the only person who owns a native pony that is not a good doer? He was thin and sleek in spring, lean and sleek in summer/autumn, and is now lean and fluffy...

He gets ad-lib hay, as much turnout as possible, and a drop of runny beet and unmollassed chaff with his vitamins in year round. He was out pretty much 24/7 until the start of November! I only brought him in to work with him and keep him in the habit, and when he was on box rest for his stifle.

I own rugs for him, but he really doesn't seem to need them, even in heavy rain. It was pelting down today when I caught in, but it just runs off him. I actually think his coat has better waterproofing than his rugs do...

Sorry, that went off on a tangent!


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## Amymay (21 December 2013)

ruth83 said:



			I think the straightforward answer to the question posed in the thread title is that people are worried others will think they are not looking after their horses correctly.
		
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Really???


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## Lolo (21 December 2013)

Because ours don't build up fatty reserves because as eventers the extra stress it would add to them would be wholly unnecessary. They need to be kept as lean and fit as possible through the season, so come winter if they dropped off they'd tip rapidly into 'thin'. 






This is Smokes, as of today. He is at his perfect weight, and ideally will remain this weight all year round. He's a fatty in the summer but drops off easily in the winter so it is an effort. But worth it. Means he's never putting more weight on his legs or more stress on his body than is necessary.


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## Holding (21 December 2013)

Surely it's good horsemanship to aim for a consistent healthy weight appropriate to age and activity levels year round?


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## Amymay (21 December 2013)

Holding said:



			Surely it's good horsemanship to aim for a consistent healthy weight appropriate to age and activity levels year round?
		
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It would seem not. Go figure.


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## Arizahn (21 December 2013)

Holding said:



			Surely it's good horsemanship to aim for a consistent healthy weight appropriate to age and activity levels year round?
		
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Meh, I'm gonna go with this.


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## Pearlsasinger (21 December 2013)

To answer your question OP, because they don't really understand how the horse's metabolism works - and then they find that their horse has laminitis and can't be turned out at all.


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## EllenJay (21 December 2013)

Holding said:



			Surely it's good horsemanship to aim for a consistent healthy weight appropriate to age and activity levels year round?
		
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No - the horses metabolism is designed to be fat in the summer and be thin in the winter. I believe that so many more horses are suffering from EMS because they never loose weight.


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## honetpot (21 December 2013)

I think that horses that have a lot of warmblood/TB blood, and cobs/ponies that were developed from our native breeds have different sorts of metabolism. Natives breed have evolved to lose weight in winter, fat ponies find it harder to conceive and a rise in nutrition helps fertility. I have three pony brood mares turned out with not rugs, no hard feed and their hay is cut with straw in an effort to get the fat off them before spring, which they will replace far quicker than it took to take it off once the grass come through. There is always an exception, I have a Welsh A who is on conditioning feed, rugged and is still losing weight.


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## Arizahn (21 December 2013)

I think there is a difference between having a grass belly over summer and being actually fat, with cresty neck, wobbly shoulders, etc.


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## only_me (21 December 2013)

If your Horse was fat in the first place then sure, let them drop of weight in winter.

However, my horse who was not fat and was just right before winter i would not want him to drop any more. He is an ISH and is rarely fat; he would walk weight off but isn't buzzy and is fed correctly to maintain weight or increased feed if his work increases - following the rules of feeding 

I try to keep my horse at his correct weight the entire year and feed the feed that suits him the best.

OP how did your horses get fat in the first place? Did you not restrict their grazing or reduce feed? In your case i would let them drop off weight in the winter as well as then they would be at the correct weight!


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## minesadouble (21 December 2013)

The TBs no but the natives very much, especially the sec A lead rein who does very little.
Sound advice in Horse and Hound saying very much the same a few weeks ago so take heart OP.
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/features/13-tips-for-feeding-natives-in-the-winter/


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## NellRosk (21 December 2013)

EllenJay said:



			No - the horses metabolism is designed to be fat in the summer and be thin in the winter. I believe that so many more horses are suffering from EMS because they never loose weight.
		
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This is my thinking. But unreasonable people will see it as starving them in winter and letting them get obese in summer


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## NellRosk (21 December 2013)

minesadouble said:



			The TBs no but the natives very much, especially the sec A lead rein who does very little.
Sound advice in Horse and Hound saying very much the same a few weeks ago so take heart OP.
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/features/13-tips-for-feeding-natives-in-the-winter/

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Thanks minesadouble. Put into words exactly what I was saying. Especially point 1. 

Quote: '1. Native breeds have evolved to put on weight in the summer and live off their fat reserves in the winter. So let them do this; it is fine to have your horse or pony lean at the end of the winter ready for the spring grass.'


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## Arizahn (21 December 2013)

NellRosk said:



			This is my thinking. But unreasonable people will see it as starving them in winter and letting them get obese in summer 

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And there is still a difference between a grass belly in summer and being actually fat!


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## NellRosk (21 December 2013)

Arizahn said:



			And there is still a difference between a grass belly in summer and being actually fat!
		
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Yes most definitely


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## Lolo (21 December 2013)

I would desperately not want a horse to have a grass belly unless it was fully out of work... It's mostly caused by constant supply of poor quality forage, which sits in the hind gut for a longer period of time. Or by the abdominal muscles slacking. Both don't seem exactly ideal to me.


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## stormox (21 December 2013)

I certainly aim for a correct weight- just able to feel, but not see ribs, with a good topline including nicely muscled quarters back and neck. And I aim to maintain, or improve this all year by working and feeding correctly. If I felt my horse was ok 'dropping off' in winter, he must have been too fat in summer!!
Yes, horses in the wild do exist on a 'feast and famine' regime- but mine don't.


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## Arizahn (21 December 2013)

Lolo said:



			I would desperately not want a horse to have a grass belly unless it was fully out of work... It's mostly caused by constant supply of poor quality forage, which sits in the hind gut for a longer period of time. Or by the abdominal muscles slacking. Both don't seem exactly ideal to me.
		
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I have one too young to work, and he is out with one that is utterly retired. Whether or not what I call a grass belly is what you describe, I don't actually know. 

PS - Both horses I speak of have perfectly functioning hindguts. My wheelbarrow can attest to this.
Here having a grass belly refers to a horse that is a bit plump from a lot of rich summer grazing, lacks proper topline as not in work, but that still does not have fat pads wobbling. Said horses quickly tone up once in work 

Fat horses are entirely different to this. They are overweight.


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## FestiveFuzz (21 December 2013)

I'm letting H drop off a bit this winter but that's because he was fairly chubby when I bought him and I haven't quite managed to get all the weight off yet. Come next year I hope to keep him at a consistent weight year round.


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## Renvers (21 December 2013)

Mine are fed for the level of work, if I let them down in winter I would drop their feed accordingly. However I would still feed them to a good condition score, when one of mine gets cold he drops too much weight and it snowballs and he suffers come spring.


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## Lolo (21 December 2013)

Arizahn, a grass/ hay belly is a distended barrel, dropped away from the rib cage giving a slightly pregnant look. Often, you can see ribs because the dropped, swollen belly stretches the skin over the ribs. What you describe is just a fatty not in work


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## MurphysMinder (21 December 2013)

I went to a talk on laminitis and the speaker said that if we let horses and ponies drop weight over winter as they would naturally then laminitis incidents would be greatly reduced.  I'm paraphrasing of course but that was the gyst and I think it was also stated in one of the Talk Laminitis webinars.


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## NellRosk (21 December 2013)

MurphysMinder said:



			I went to a talk on laminitis and the speaker said that if we let horses and ponies drop weight over winter as they would naturally then laminitis incidents would be greatly reduced.  I'm paraphrasing of course but that was the gyst and I think it was also stated in one of the Talk Laminitis webinars.
		
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This makes sense


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## MrsNorris (21 December 2013)

I am quite happy if mine drops off a bit in winter, I like him to come into spring lean, gain a little in spring/summer and lose it again the next winter. It makes sense to me and unless you feed a lot in winter, it happens naturally anyway.


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## pennyturner (21 December 2013)

Interesting thread OP.  I'm lucky enough to have lots of unimproved meadow grazing for my 11 natives, keeping them as close to natural as possible.

They're stood in weeds up to their eyeballs in summer.  Because it's rough, low value stuff, and they're constantly mooching, they're not restricted / muzzled, and pig out on thistles and other dainties to their hearts content.  Being summer, we're also riding / driving them a bit more.  Some of them get a bit fat, yes, but fit and nothing like the show ponies you see.  

Come autumn they eat down all those weeds as they die off, putting on weight well into December.  I avoid giving hay unless there's snow, (but keep an eye on their condition of course).  They find things to eat through the winter, and are constantly foraging, but it's not enough to stop the weight slowly coming off them into the spring.

Some years they get through with no hay at all.  The marginal aquatics start growing in early Feb when they're hungriest, so they go in the river and eat the lot - this is great as it disturbs the stream bed and clears the watercourse for me  

For this to work you need lots of POOR grazing.  Over the years the ponies have learned from each other to eat things they wouldn't at first (like duck weed from the river bed!).  Best thing is they're never bored, and don't hang around the gate hungry waiting for hay.  The fluctuations in their weight aren't as extreme as you might think.  

They're exceptionally good doers - I think this is because this lifestyle is much less stressful than fighting over hay piles and waiting for feeds.


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## MurphysMinder (21 December 2013)

I found this, referring to the same.
https://www.facebook.com/HoofcareandLameness/posts/236241676424112


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## NellRosk (21 December 2013)

pennyturner said:



			Interesting thread OP.  I'm lucky enough to have lots of unimproved meadow grazing for my 11 natives, keeping them as close to natural as possible.

They're stood in weeds up to their eyeballs in summer.  Because it's rough, low value stuff, and they're constantly mooching, they're not restricted / muzzled, and pig out on thistles and other dainties to their hearts content.  Being summer, we're also riding / driving them a bit more.  Some of them get a bit fat, yes, but fit and nothing like the show ponies you see.  

Come autumn they eat down all those weeds as they die off, putting on weight well into December.  I avoid giving hay unless there's snow, (but keep an eye on their condition of course).  They find things to eat through the winter, and are constantly foraging, but it's not enough to stop the weight slowly coming off them into the spring.

Some years they get through with no hay at all.  The marginal aquatics start growing in early Feb when they're hungriest, so they go in the river and eat the lot - this is great as it disturbs the stream bed and clears the watercourse for me  

For this to work you need lots of POOR grazing.  Over the years the ponies have learned from each other to eat things they wouldn't at first (like duck weed from the river bed!).  Best thing is they're never bored, and don't hang around the gate hungry waiting for hay.  The fluctuations in their weight aren't as extreme as you might think.  

They're exceptionally good doers - I think this is because this lifestyle is much less stressful than fighting over hay piles and waiting for feeds.
		
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Wow, extremely jealous of your set up and your lot sound like they have a wonderful time foraging around for food!! And I wasn't on about extreme fluctuations in weight, you'd think the way some people were going on I was starving them in winter and letting them get hideously overweight in summer. I'm talking a few kgs here and there.


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## NellRosk (21 December 2013)

MurphysMinder said:



			I found this, referring to the same.
https://www.facebook.com/HoofcareandLameness/posts/236241676424112

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Fab thanks!


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## khalswitz (21 December 2013)

I look at it this way: if a horse or pony goes into summer fat, you are looking at trouble. In an ideal world, you keep your horse/pony at its ideal weight year round - they don't need reserves for winter as are not being starved. HOWEVER, in reality, many people increase feed levels hugely in winter without need, as often horses are worked a lot less when it is dark and cold and owner would rather be at home in the evenings. So I can see why people advocate letting your horse drop off a bit over winter, but equally know that I wouldn't do it myself - it is much harder to put weight on over winter than lose it, and even with he best intentions and feeding to maintain weight my TB invariably loses some condition compared to summer. 

Yes, they are evolved to gain and lose, but the scenario is different now. Yes, too many people have overweight horses/ponies anyway, so they could do with losing weight, and the winter is the easiest time to do it. Should you use weight fluctuations to keep your horse healthy? Not if you want to ride it. It's not fair on either an overweight or under conditioned animal to work - my lad got a month off at the end of last winter because his weight dropped and he needed to conserve energy.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (21 December 2013)

Constant weight (if I can, as fighting flab in summer) for mine all yr round.

If I let mine drop off, by now I'd possibly have a hat-rack from hunting............


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## Burnttoast (21 December 2013)

Interesting thread. Metabolically speaking a domestic horse is the same as a feral horse, so in theory it would be better for the horse if it is allowed to be a horse in this respect. As far as many leisure horses/good doers are concerned letting them drop weight regularly rather than piling it on all year round, year on year, may be all that stands between them and IR/laminitis/EMS, particularly since they're unlikely to have the base level of fitness a feral horse will have from always moving around. For hardworking horses their work alone is likely to protect them to a large degree from those problems even if their metabolism isn't then working quite as nature intended. As far as riding itself is concerned it is mostly an issue for saddle fit. Agree with Lolo about the grass belly - nothing to do with fat per se, just a lack of working condition in general.


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## Hippona (21 December 2013)

amymay said:



			My horses have a job and work harder in the winter than the summer. So the need feeding, clipping and rugging.

If your horses are not worked then I can understand you not clipping, rugging and feeing etc. 

How do you prevent them getting fat in the summer?
		
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They get worked more...sadly my job dictates they get less work in winter


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## pennyturner (21 December 2013)

The Xmas Furry said:



			If I let mine drop off, by now I'd possibly have a hat-rack from hunting............
		
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The one time I had a complete disaster (hands-up, I got it completely wrong), I hunted one of my laid-back, grass-kept good-doers 3 or 4 half-days.  He was fed a little extra, but obviously not enough for the increased metabolism caused by hunting.  It put so much fire in his belly that he was a different horse just in the field.  His weight fell off a cliff, and I spent the rest of the winter trying (fairly unsucessfully) to get it back on, throwing barley and linseed down him like it was going out of fashion.


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## Rapidash (21 December 2013)

I've seen numerous natives get a little too fat in summer and a little too thin in winter and *gasp* they've been fine. For my current equine I rely on winter to slim her down as once spring comes, there's no way she wouldn't put weight on once she gets a sniff of spring grass. As with all things, moderation is key. It's the obese/hatrack ponies that have health problems, not the ones with a bit of weight fluctuation.


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## NellRosk (21 December 2013)

pennyturner said:



			The one time I had a complete disaster (hands-up, I got it completely wrong), I hunted one of my laid-back, grass-kept good-doers 3 or 4 half-days.  He was fed a little extra, but obviously not enough for the increased metabolism caused by hunting.  It put so much fire in his belly that he was a different horse just in the field.  His weight fell off a cliff, and I spent the rest of the winter trying (fairly unsucessfully) to get it back on, throwing barley and linseed down him like it was going out of fashion.
		
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Luckily I know my horse well enough to know this won't happen (been hunting and low and behold it didn't)


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## NellRosk (21 December 2013)

Rapidash said:



			As with all things, moderation is key. It's the obese/hatrack ponies that have health problems, not the ones with a bit of weight fluctuation.
		
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This.


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## stencilface (21 December 2013)

A grass belly ime is one which will disappear within 24 hours ish if grazing is restricted. It's a result of rich grass causing gassiness not poor quality forage afaik?

Mine gets tubby in summer, and slimmer in winter at all weights he is capable of what I ask of him. Although I do remember on good summer/autumn when he got too big, but was still ok to go round the hunter trials, just when I look at the pics I cringe


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## Holly Hocks (21 December 2013)

I wish I could get my native to drop weight!  No feed, doesn't get adlib hay, does some work (only 4 and a half and still growing) and still mahoosive!


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## MerrySherryRider (21 December 2013)

A feral horse does not graze in a paddock 24/7. They roam, they forage for food and interact with the herd. quite different from a good doer in a small paddock who only needs to mooch a few paces inbetween mouthfuls.

A domestic horse not in work is unfit with a metabolism that is  more sluggish than a fit, feral horse who covers many miles a day.

There's no comparison. 

A well exercised horse fed appropriately all year round is less likely to get IR, lamimitis or EMS than a field ornament allowed to gain excess weight in summer and left  hungry in winter. 
 A well managed horse is less likely to be metabolically stressed by the famine/feast style of management.

Leaving your horse hungry so it drops weight in winter is a pretty miserable care plan.


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## LD&S (21 December 2013)

I maintain their weight through the year so no need.


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## RachelBristol (21 December 2013)

All but one of mine come off hard feed over the winter and are just pumped full of hay and or haylage.  if anything since I started this my eventer does better over winter, and doesnt drop condition as much.


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## NellRosk (21 December 2013)

MerrySherryRider said:



			Leaving your horse hungry so it drops weight in winter is a pretty miserable care plan.
		
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Completely agree yes. Now if you could just point me to where someone has advocated doing this? I seem to have missed it


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## Hippona (21 December 2013)

MerrySherryRider said:



			A feral horse does not graze in a paddock 24/7. They roam, they forage for food and interact with the herd. quite different from a good doer in a small paddock who only needs to mooch a few paces inbetween mouthfuls.

A domestic horse not in work is unfit with a metabolism that is  more sluggish than a fit, feral horse who covers many miles a day.

There's no comparison. 

A well exercised horse fed appropriately all year round is less likely to get IR, lamimitis or EMS than a field ornament allowed to gain excess weight in summer and left  hungry in winter. 
 A well managed horse is less likely to be metabolically stressed by the famine/feast style of management.

Leaving your horse hungry so it drops weight in winter is a pretty miserable care plan.
		
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Who said they left their horse hungry?
In fact...quite clearly , both OP and myself said we gave ad lib hay. We simply do not over rug, allowing the horse to use their own fat reserves to keep warm.
My horses are happy warm and healthy, they are not starved nor do they drop condition.


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## Rapidash (21 December 2013)

MerrySherryRider said:



			A well exercised horse fed appropriately all year round is less likely to get IR, lamimitis or EMS than a field ornament allowed to gain excess weight in summer and left  hungry in winter. 
 A well managed horse is less likely to be metabolically stressed by the famine/feast style of management.
		
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Do you have a link to research that backs up that claim or is that your opinion?


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## mynutmeg (21 December 2013)

I wish she would drop off over the winter - I have to restrict her forage even in the middle of winter as she piles on the pounds from ad lib hay/haylage.


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## JJones (21 December 2013)

I wish mine would lose a bit of weight in winter! they seem to come out of it as fat as they went in.


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## samlf (21 December 2013)

The latest veterinary advice is that horses that are overweight or carrying a bit too much weight should definitely be allowed to drop that over winter, so that they go into spring lean (eg a condition score around 2.5-2.75). 

Obviously you have to use your common sense and if your horse goes into winter at an ideal condition score (3) then just let it drop a little if it is prone to gaining weight in summer. If the horse goes into winter at a lower than 3 condition score then of course there is no need to let them drop weight.

The problem is not horses who are maintained at a healthy weight all year round (although it begs the question how many of your horses are actually at an ideal weight, and how many are actually overweight), the problem is horses who are maintained at too high a weight all year round because it is seen as some form of neglect if you don't rug, feed etc.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (21 December 2013)

pennyturner said:



			The one time I had a complete disaster (hands-up, I got it completely wrong), I hunted one of my laid-back, grass-kept good-doers 3 or 4 half-days.  He was fed a little extra, but obviously not enough for the increased metabolism caused by hunting.  It put so much fire in his belly that he was a different horse just in the field.  His weight fell off a cliff, and I spent the rest of the winter trying (fairly unsucessfully) to get it back on, throwing barley and linseed down him like it was going out of fashion.
		
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Which is why mine is fed according to the work being done, upping if required as the work is upped


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## Spring Feather (21 December 2013)

I have some horses who are fed hardfeed during the winter and some who aren't.  Most of the horses here hold the perfect weight nicely throughout the year.  Some of them (having had them here for 8/9 years) I know will put on some weight once the spring grass comes through so these ones are always fed lower quality ad-lib hay during winter and no hard feed and they drop a little weight, which is exactly what I want, then by summer they look nicely covered but not fat.  The old horses, broodmares and youngsters are all fed hardfeed during the winter as I like them to hold their weight all year round.  All horses here live out 24/7/365 so they get plenty of exercise.

Horses are designed to fluctuate in weight and I have no problem with it for the greater long term good.  I'd far rather horses be a little underweight than overweight tbh


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## PolarSkye (21 December 2013)

I don't know about anyone else but I don't let my horse "drop off" in the winter because I don't want him to be a hat rack - he is in medium work, is fully clipped, is a poor doer/isn't fat going into winter, is on a high forage/fibre diet and is not fed ridiculous mixes . . . if he were a native and we weren't working him all winter I would let him grow a coat and rough him off - but he is a fine-coated, stressy sporthorse in a decent amount of work (including hunting) and I prefer to keep his weight consistant year round.

P


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## Exploding Chestnuts (21 December 2013)

I like them to be min weight just before turnout, but like to keep weight on till February. 
In the wild those who lose too  much weight die..................
A light covering keeps them warmer.
And they need minerals all year round.


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## Nugget La Poneh (21 December 2013)

If I had a wild native off the mountains/moors then yes I would follow the natural cycle providing I wasn't doing anything exercise wise over winter. However, I have a native type, born domesticated and while has never had 'hard' feed (as in compound mixes) has had feed, is rugged and is in overnight in winter. He has however this year been gently roughed off and is now on a 6 week sabbatical before being de-furred and put onto a fittening program ready for Spring. However, he will still not have hard feed and will still be on his hay/straw rations and turnout. However as the fields are managed, the grass is inherently richer than he would have in the wild so to speak so will have his turnout onto grass limited accordingly.


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## Buddy'sMum (21 December 2013)

samlf said:



			The problem is not horses who are maintained at a healthy weight all year round (although it begs the question how many of your horses are actually at an ideal weight, and how many are actually overweight), the problem is horses who are maintained at too high a weight all year round because it is seen as some form of neglect if you don't rug, feed etc.
		
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^couldn't agree more^


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## MerrySherryRider (21 December 2013)

Rapidash said:



			Do you have a link to research that backs up that claim or is that your opinion?
		
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Really ?

 There is a wealth of scientific papers on the role that exercise plays in increasing insulin sensitivity and reducing hyperinsulinaemia.

Its not news.


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## Rapidash (21 December 2013)

MerrySherryRider said:



			Really ?

 There is a wealth of scientific papers on the role that exercise plays in increasing insulin sensitivity and reducing hyperinsulinaemia.

Its not news.
		
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Exercise yes, but that's not just what you were saying. You were saying that maintaining a constant weight was better than weight fluctuations. Just wondered what this was based on.


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## catroo (21 December 2013)

Most of my herd are shetlands, my grazing is purposely 'rough' to avoid excessive weight gain in summer but they do gain weight. In winter they still have grazing but obviously the nutritional content is low so they slowly drop weight. They aren't starving, I weigh tape them monthly to monitor and if they are dropping too quickly then they get more hay/haylage. Neither their weight gain or drop is extreme, it's slow and gradual. Keeping them this way means they get to stay out all year round in decent sized field and not muzzled, I think this is preferable to keeping them restricted and muzzled to keep their weight the same all year round.


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## NinjaPony (21 December 2013)

Personally I think that we should strive to maintain a healthy weight all year round. That's easier said than done if you have really good grazing but I don't believe in letting my horses' weight fall off over winter simply to make my life easier. Instead, they have enough hay and feed to keep them reasonably covered in winter, and soaked hay, reduced hard feed and as little/much grass as they need in summer. I aim to change their feeding routines as little as possible all year round as mine are both good doers, the only exception being that my Connemara needs less hard feed if the grass is good. My Connemara is in work all year round therefore I want to keep him fit and well covered all year round. My welsh is retired but does inhand showing so I try to keep him at a constant weight, neither fat nor thin. He wears plenty of rugs, has two very small feeds a day and plenty of hay in winter and looks a good weight atm. I see no point in starving him so that he can gain lots of weight in summer, I'd rather try to keep his weight the same.
IMO there is little natural about modern day horse care, if my welsh a was in the wild he would probably have been eaten by an animal when he went lame so I don't subscribe to that philosophy.


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## samlf (21 December 2013)

But the point is not that it is the lazy way, and certainly nothing to do with starving (quite the opposite really - not over feeding!). This is the latest veterinary advice based on research - it is better to let a horse that is overweight lose weight over winter to enter spring lean, than try to maintain its weight all year round. Excessive fat tissue has been proven to create an inflammatory response and is linked to EMS. With some horses it really is not possible to avoid weight gain over summer, so your choice is maintain that over winter and risk laminitis etc, or monitor weight loss slowly and steadily over the season.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (22 December 2013)

I would rather maintain a constant weight. I did this with my last coblet I aimed to keep her lean and fit all year round rather than let her get fat at anytime of the year. Before she was sold she was roughed off as I was going for my op and left to get hairy, she was on a poor winter paddock getting two slices of hay and whatever she could scrounge off the one getting a feed (lickings of the bowl) and was as round as butter. So my regime of clipping and riding was the only thing preventing her from gaining all the time, so imagine a winter of that?? I'd have had to have given her nothing to prevent her from gaining and I will not put an unclipped horse especially a double native cross into hard work unclipped, asking for skin problems IME which is exactly what happened with this wee mare.

People who let their horses get fat then let them winter it off aren't IMO doing them any good at all, horses aren't wild now we can't keep them as they would be in the wild so why have a go at folk who clip and rug all year round and aim to keep their horses weight constant than the constant yoyo-ing???

Live and let live IMO


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## windand rain (22 December 2013)

Personally and from 50 years experience, research and attending laminitis clinics I prefer mine to be well fed but allowed to drop a considerable amount of weight in winter and avoid having to starve them by using muzzles and pocket handkerchief plots whenthe spring grass comes in. Mine tend to get tubby in summer are grazed year round on the same grass which stays lawn length year round they then lose weight so you can just feel their ribs grazing and being fed high fibre high protein feeds and a little hay in winter they probably start winter about a 3,5 on the scale and finish it about 2.5, They work daily have shiny healthy coats and are much happier that they were when they were in at night on hay and then were very restricted in summer. They are now ponies and are never hungry in the true sense of the word.
I hate muzzles with a passion as I feel the horse must be frustrated and hungry all the time so I am happy for mine to lose weight over winter so they are able to gain it back in the summer. The eldest horse I have is 19 and has never had any metabolic issues and has never had laminitis the only one ever to get it was the dartmoor gelding who is a pig and was let out of his short grass after I had been and was several hours on next doors hay field resul one very sick pony. He has temperament issues which are greatly exacerbated by being hungry and is much more difficult when strictly restricted in summer than he is when he joins the others on the big fields in winter
So in answer to your question OP I dont know why they dont it works for most and most certainly works for mine
but I do agree that starving weight or shivering weight off is mean and cruel


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## pennyturner (22 December 2013)

The Xmas Furry said:



			Which is why mine is fed according to the work being done, upping if required as the work is upped 

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My point was that it was the change in ATTITUDE from hunting - caused him to suddenly go up a gear in the field - that changed what he needed, not the amount of work, which wasn't all that much!


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## pennyturner (22 December 2013)

In answer to the original question:  I do think it's very hard to manage natives naturally in the postage-stamp sized paddocks which most people have.  Bored, hungry horses who aren't moving around will shiver, fret and quickly pull themselves down.

However, the benefits (if you can find enough poor grazing to do it) of allowing them to roam and forage are immense.  They're always moving, sociable with each other, and have nothing to fight over.    

I disagree with those who say it's not possible to keep them like wild - to a point it is, but you must never forget that by putting a fence around them you've imposed an unnatural constraint.    When you run out of grazing it's time to go get the hay...


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## DragonSlayer (22 December 2013)

Mine like a full English breakfast in the morning to get them going, and they like pizza and chips mostly for tea!

Seriously though, good year management is better than having to 'starve' then 'fatten up' when needed? Difficult for those with underlying issues I know, but we have 6 horses and out of all the horses we had over the years, never had the dreaded L. 

We must be doing something right by regulating weight throughout the year..


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## NZJenny (22 December 2013)

It depends ...... so my old, very retired mare, who is a fatty, difenately puts it on in the warmer months, and while she might loose a bit over the winter, she easily gets thru the winter on her reserves without needing a cover.

I purchased a new horse in April (our autumn), she was 18 month old at the time and while she wasn't thin, she certainly wasn't carrying enough weight for a horse that age going into winter and while my preference would have been to leave her uncovered, it couldn't happen.

My two riding horses - one is doing endurance so is turned out during the winter, but covered as she is usually clipped for the late season rides and my other one works all the way thru.

My horses live out 24/7, but I do hard feed all year around and during the winter provide ad lib hay, but they all do it differently.  My gelding hates the rain for example, and if we get several days of it, will just park up under the hedge and he drops weight thru just being miserable I think.


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## emmah1979 (22 December 2013)

I agree with the poster. Too many happy hacker people I know with cobby types/natives don't winter to their advantage to allow their horses to naturally drop some condition. Coming out of winter with a well rounded animal then leads them to a summer of restricted grazing, muzzles, laminitis worries etc. My retired TB is out 24/7, rugged with ad lib hay and a daily feed of chaff, sugarbeet, and pasture mix. He always looks a bit poor come Apr but then has a lovely summer of unrestricted grazing in big fields with plenty of grass so that he's nice and rounded by Oct ready for another winter. My other ISH who is on unexpected hols at mo (I broke ankle out hunting!) is usually in plenty of work so I never need worry about him getting fat and he will get fed as appropriate to maintain condition.


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## PolarSkye (22 December 2013)

emmah1979 said:



			I agree with the poster. Too many happy hacker people I know with cobby types/natives don't winter to their advantage to allow their horses to naturally drop some condition. Coming out of winter with a well rounded animal then leads them to a summer of restricted grazing, muzzles, laminitis worries etc. My retired TB is out 24/7, rugged with ad lib hay and a daily feed of chaff, sugarbeet, and pasture mix. He always looks a bit poor come Apr but then has a lovely summer of unrestricted grazing in big fields with plenty of grass so that he's nice and rounded by Oct ready for another winter. My other ISH who is on unexpected hols at mo (I broke ankle out hunting!) is usually in plenty of work so I never need worry about him getting fat and he will get fed as appropriate to maintain condition.
		
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Very sensible post.

P


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## Queenbee (22 December 2013)

amymay said:



			No. I aim to maintain a consistent weight throughout the year.
		
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This^^^



NellRosk said:



			But isn't it the natural way of things to put on weight in summer then lose it in winter?
		
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I believe that with this method people can become complacent, they sometime care less when their horse is carrying too much weight going into winter and instead of actually doing something about it they let it go and rely on the winter to do the work.  Such fluctuations are not all that healthy, maintaining a consistent and healthy weight is better for the horse.


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## christine48 (22 December 2013)

NellRosk said:



			I see so many threads in feeding about how to maintain weight in winter. I'm completely the opposite, got 2 fatties so I'm perfectly happy to let them lose a bit over winter. Makes my job of keeping them trim in summer a lot easier. Obviously I'm not talking about oldies or poor doers, but people with natives or good doers... Do any of you let your horses naturally lose weight in winter? Surely this is what they do in the wild? (Just to add mine get ad lib haylage but I do not/ will not give them masses of hard feed to maintain weight).
		
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Maybe what you do is correct as that is what would happen in the wild. Having said that, I wouldn't like them to go out competing if they were thin though.


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## JLD (22 December 2013)

My pony had subacute laminitis this summer. We got him late spring, He had come out of winter very poor and despite limiting his grazing and feeding soaked hay to build him up gently and not overload him he still got very mild signs. We managed it with a narrow track system and in hand walk exercise and it never developed. We have been careful with his weight as he does polarity on almost overnight and my vet has specifically advised he is allowed to drop off over winter to come into spring slightly under as this simulates the natural cycle and lessens the risk of lami. He is very very into EMS and lami and has done a lot of work on it, hence him being so sharp on picking up very subtle signs in my pony


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## catkin (22 December 2013)

NinjaPony said:



			Personally I think that we should strive to maintain a healthy weight all year round. That's easier said than done if you have really good grazing but I don't believe in letting my horses' weight fall off over winter simply to make my life easier.
		
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Can't say I find managing natives on anything other than their native terrain is easy (or inexpensive!) - and it's not about 'letting the weight fall off', it's about taking an awful lot of care about their diet, exercise and general care, which will NOT be the same all year round. 

The advice from my vets is that good-doer types should be condition score 3 about now (and they mean condition score 3, not 3 and a few 'wobbly bits'!!!), allowed to drop to the lean side of 3 by the end of the winter so there is a buffer if the spring grass comes through quickly. It is certainly not about starving them or keeping them hungry - more about learning the nutrient values of the actual grub you are offering them and ensuring that they have what they need but not what they don't. 

It's certainly not a money-saving exercise either if done properly by the time you've got in a top-class mineral supplement to suit your grazing and good clean forage with low sugar/starch levels.


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## lastchancer (22 December 2013)

I have a native x veteran that does occasional gentle happy hacking, he lives out and is allowed to drop a bit off in the winter months, if I didn't do this I'd be battling lami by april. I think I'm doing something right as he's never had lami and I've owned him since he was 2yo. When he was stabled at night and doing more work I maintained his weight more or less constant throughout the year. 
I really can't understand those who feed loads of expensive food all winter and then watch in dismay when laminitis strikes every single spring...


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## Fools Motto (22 December 2013)

My mare has to only 'think' she has heard the hunt and she has halved in size. I don't work her in winter, and she lives out. She also won't eat up well, and will only eat pony nuts. I struggle and worry a bit, but it is what she is, and I guess it is natural. Glad I don't work her though!!
In an ordinary horse/pony, I agree with OP, they should be able to loose a bit of weight - and still look good and well, thenn pick up slowly when grass comes through.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (22 December 2013)

Depends...Bruce is a fatty by nature, hardy and un clipped and retired: we do aim to have him drop off over winter so he's slim going in to spring. Then he is muzzled and strip grazed over the grass flush and looks just nice, Instead of the obese he would be if he came out of winter round!

The two competing horses are clipped and fit and fed to put on weight during the slightly quieter winter as they can run up light when competing regularly in the spring.


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## Ibblebibble (22 December 2013)

as with everything i do what i find is best for my individual horses rather than what other people think i should do. mine are not in work at the moment as i can't ride and went into winter well covered, i won't panic if they drop a LITTLE over winter, not enough to have people phoning the RSPCA but a few kg's won't hurt.


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## daughter's groom (22 December 2013)

Winter is a great time to shift some excess weight off my 11.2 hh Sec A. It is so difficult to give these  tiny ponies adequate exercise to counteract summer weight gain so she winters out in a well grazed field with hay throughout the day. She usually comes through a nice comfortable size in the spring.


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## twiggy2 (22 December 2013)

MerrySherryRider said:



			In the wild, horses  may drop weight because forage is scarce and winter becomes a time of survival. No need for owners to replicate conditions in the wild- because we can't. No point.
		
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There is a point it is thought that horses produce more insulin as the summer and spring flush of grass comes through and their insulin levels are very low during winter so mimicking the natural levels of sugar and feed during the year and allowing the horses weight to fluctuate as it would in the wild would reduce the cases of insulin related laminitis and all linked conditions. The belief is that keeping horses weight consistent year round is creating lots and lots of health issues for horses.


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## Cortez (22 December 2013)

No, keeping horses FAT all year round is creating health issues for horses. Maintaining a consistent healthy weight is good husbandry, for all animals (including ourselves).


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## khalswitz (22 December 2013)

Cortez said:



			No, keeping horses FAT all year round is creating health issues for horses. Maintaining a consistent healthy weight is good husbandry, for all animals (including ourselves).
		
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This. If you want to get technical, HUMANS are designed to lose and gain weight - get fat in summer and lean over winter. However fluctuating weight is something we are advised against by our doctors - maintaining a healthy weight is advised.

There are people who do the 5:2 diet to mimic our 'natural' metabolism, however long term weight fluctuations between overweight and underweight aren't recommended. I would argue the same of horses.


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## Goldenstar (22 December 2013)

Damn I was enjoying those twiglets .


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## The Fuzzy Furry (22 December 2013)

Goldenstar said:



			Damn I was enjoying those twiglets .
		
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I hope you weighed them out 1st and the amount was according to weight?


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## PolarSkye (22 December 2013)

Feeling Merry said:



			My mare has to only 'think' she has heard the hunt and she has halved in size.
		
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Not just Kali then!  

P


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## Tern (22 December 2013)

Unless you want my 27yro to be so malnourished he can't stand up then no!


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## Goldenstar (22 December 2013)

The Xmas Furry said:



			I hope you weighed them out 1st and the amount was according to weight? 

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No it's add lib , they are forage you know .


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## The Fuzzy Furry (22 December 2013)

Goldenstar said:



			No it's add lib , they are forage you know .
		
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You are presumably aware that they MUST be fed in conjunction with a glass of port (or similar additive)?


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## Goldenstar (22 December 2013)

The Xmas Furry said:



			You are presumably aware that they MUST be fed in conjunction with a glass of port (or similar additive)? 

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Of course we we very strict about supplements over Christmas .


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## PolarSkye (22 December 2013)

Goldenstar said:



			Of course we we very strict about supplements over Christmas .
		
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Hang on, I thought port was a staple?

P


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## Goldenstar (22 December 2013)

PolarExpress said:



			Hang on, I thought port was a staple?

P
		
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Oh its a supplement here white wine is a staple .


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## Wagtail (22 December 2013)

NellRosk said:



			I see so many threads in feeding about how to maintain weight in winter. I'm completely the opposite, got 2 fatties so I'm perfectly happy to let them lose a bit over winter. Makes my job of keeping them trim in summer a lot easier. Obviously I'm not talking about oldies or poor doers, but people with natives or good doers... Do any of you let your horses naturally lose weight in winter? Surely this is what they do in the wild? (Just to add mine get ad lib haylage but I do not/ will not give them masses of hard feed to maintain weight).
		
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No, I keep them at a constantly ideal weight throughout the year. But I don't feed lots of hard feed. On the contrary, just one small feed a day for their vits and mins and ad lib haylage for the poor doers, or weighed haylage for the good doers.


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## FabioandFreddy (22 December 2013)

i'm praying for mine to start dropping off! Due to the unseasonably mild winter so far though its yet to happen...


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## Wagtail (22 December 2013)

I don't believe all the people saying they feed ad lib haylage and the horses drop weight. IME if I feed ad lib haylage, they get fat! Except for the really poor doers who maintain weight.


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## Goldenstar (22 December 2013)

I feed my horses add lib high quality haylage I restrict intake by using different nets  if horses are greedy and not working hard , but they have it all the time they are stabled they stay in the field three or four hours a day this time of year .
Tatts ATM is slim and hard fit I am just upping the bucket food as he's got a lot of work coming up and has had some long hunting days .
Tatts is I would say a 2.5 /3 ATM but he's really fit and having long days so I am happy he's not lugging anything extra around as soon as he works less he will gain wieght back .
My horses eat about a small bale a day each a couple of them eat more than bale a day.
Work is the key if they work hard they can eat unlimited haylage and get slimmer and slimmer 
My hunters are getting oats speedibeet Alfafa and micronised linseed on top .
I have ever owned a horse that I can't get looking well I can only assume they are like cattle if they are relaxed and content they do well .
That's what's the issue with these threads someone says I feed add lib haylage and my horses are slim that's true in my case but they are working their socks off ATM 
If you have horses on add lib and they are fat look at ways of having the haylage there but reducing intake by making it more work to eat it..


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## cptrayes (22 December 2013)

Cortez said:



			No, keeping horses FAT all year round is creating health issues for horses. Maintaining a consistent healthy weight is good husbandry, for all animals (including ourselves).
		
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Are you sure? There appears to be very strong scientific evidence that eating only one 500 calorie meal on two days a week carries very significant health benefits for humans.


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## Wagtail (22 December 2013)

Ah, for me, ad lib means as much as they ant to eat. Those that are restricted get a weighed amount in trickle nets so they are not stood without forage. But people saying they feed ad lib forage and allow the horse to drop weight??? How?


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## cptrayes (22 December 2013)

Wagtail said:



			I don't believe all the people saying they feed ad lib haylage and the horses drop weight. IME if I feed ad lib haylage, they get fat! Except for the really poor doers who maintain weight.
		
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Depends on the horse Wagtail. I've been feeding a good doer in only light work ad lib haylage and he has lost weight.


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## MagicMelon (22 December 2013)

NellRosk said:



			I'm completely the opposite, got 2 fatties so I'm perfectly happy to let them lose a bit over winter.
		
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I wouldn't let mine become "fatties", so they never have any weight they need to lose. I like to try and keep mine slim all year round. I don't think its sensible to let horses gain much weight in the summer as the grazing horses are on is not as it would be in the wild, therefore you're risking things like laminitis.


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## Goldenstar (22 December 2013)

I have never and never will wiegh a horses forage .


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## windand rain (22 December 2013)

In my case they are eating constantly because they are grazing they probably expend far more energy finding the grass than they get from it so they lose weight they are not hungry because they are grazing  are fed and have a small section of hay. They lose weight because the nutritional value of winter grass is pretty much zero so they have the roughage but not the calories
The feed provides the minimum level of food required for survival so protein vitamins and minerals and some forage the hay adds a bit more forage to keep the gut functioning and the grass keeps them occupied and hay doing what horses do, In summer they dont get hay but the nutritional value of the grass rises  so they dont need the hay
The ponies then are unrestricted and can gain weight over the summer they are never hungry never muzzled and never unhappy in small plots they have access year round to at least two acres of short grass in summer 4 acres in winter They dont have insulin resistance cushings ems or any of the other metabolic disorders so common now
As for humans it is well lknown that if a type 2 diabetic (insulin resistant equivalent) goes on a low calorie diet for several days a week they can reduce the need for drugs and in some cases eliminate the need at all so effectively are cured. The rise in type 2 in younger and younger people is because of the poor diet of young people now processed food full of fat and sugar is ruining our young peoples health and yes if you look at human history the rise in type 2 has come with a freeer and more stable weight gain, over history when humans were feast and famine they didnt suffer from type 2 diabetes


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## MerrySherryRider (22 December 2013)

twiggy2 said:



			There is a point it is thought that horses produce more insulin as the summer and spring flush of grass comes through and their insulin levels are very low during winter so mimicking the natural levels of sugar and feed during the year and allowing the horses weight to fluctuate as it would in the wild would reduce the cases of insulin related laminitis and all linked conditions. The belief is that keeping horses weight consistent year round is creating lots and lots of health issues for horses.
		
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If the sugar levels in the grass are low (ie; winter) the amount of insulin released by the pancreas will be less. Spring grass is high in sugar and in a healthy horse, when blood sugar levels rise, more insulin is released. 
Horses don't produce less insulin because its winter, they produce it in response to blood sugar level.

What are the health issues caused by keeping weight consistent ? 

It seems a lazy way to deliberately let horses to drop weight over winter so they can get fat in spring. Why not exercise instead and keep the horse fit, weight appropriate and with a metabolism that is working efficiently rather than sluggishly.


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## Goldenstar (22 December 2013)

I don't think any one has said there are health issues with keeping wieght constant unless you are dealing with extremly fit horses that have heavy work loads they definatly benefit from being let down and when you let them down they will gain wieght .


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## Lego (22 December 2013)

I don't intend to necessarily use winter to drop weight, and spring to put weight on, but will use it if needed...

If a couple of extra kgs have snuck on during spring when there is a flush of grass, I'd rather use the grass tailing off in quality over the summer and autumn to drop a bit of weight than restricting turnout. I try to avoid  any big changes in weight and condition to maintain fitness and saddle fit throughout the year...but I have a cob on livery so have to use what I can!


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## Goldenstar (22 December 2013)

Wagtail said:



			Ah, for me, ad lib means as much as they ant to eat. Those that are restricted get a weighed amount in trickle nets so they are not stood without forage. But people saying they feed ad lib forage and allow the horse to drop weight??? How?
		
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You work them .


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## Copperpot (22 December 2013)

I try to keep a constant weight but he had 6 months out of work from May. He lives out so got a little grass belly and lost all topline. Now back in work and the grass belly is going. However I won't up his feed until he needs it. Just a handful to get his vits and supplements in and he is getting hay. I'm hoping next spring / summer I can keep him lean by exercise.


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## Spring Feather (22 December 2013)

Wagtail said:



			Ah, for me, ad lib means as much as they ant to eat. Those that are restricted get a weighed amount in trickle nets so they are not stood without forage. But people saying they feed ad lib forage and allow the horse to drop weight??? How?
		
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That's what adlib means to me too.  No horse at my farm stands without free unrestricted access to hay.  I own a hay farm so am able to keep the best hay for the horses I want to keep consistent weight, and for those who I know would be fat in the summer if I didn't allow them to drop in the winter, they are fed lower quality, slightly rougher hay.  They drop weight.


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## twiggy2 (22 December 2013)

khalswitz said:



			This. If you want to get technical, HUMANS are designed to lose and gain weight - get fat in summer and lean over winter. However fluctuating weight is something we are advised against by our doctors - maintaining a healthy weight is advised.

There are people who do the 5:2 diet to mimic our 'natural' metabolism, however long term weight fluctuations between overweight and underweight aren't recommended. I would argue the same of horses.
		
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I would want neither overweight or underweight, weight can fluctuate without being either. 
more and more evidence is indicating allow horse to be leaner at times of the year is beneficial to their long term health


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## Boulty (23 December 2013)

I don't mind mine dropping in winter in order to avoid him getting too much on the plump side come spring. That's not to say he is starved but although he gets adlib access to hay in the field and a reasonable amount of haylage in small holed nets overnight (was on hay, which I preferred cos it took him longer to eat and had less calories but because the hay we get, although nice stuff, is quite dry and dusty it was setting my allergies off to the point I was having to wear a mask and still couldn't really breathe that well) he only gets hard feed once a day in the form of fastfibre and a light balancer for vits and mins. If he started to look poor on this then I'd prob up his night haylage ration and start giving him two feeds a day rather than one. Thus far haven't seen a need to do this (if anything he's still got a little more on him than I'd like for the time of year)


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## MerrySherryRider (23 December 2013)

Goldenstar said:



			I don't think any one has said there are health issues with keeping wieght constant unless you are dealing with extremly fit horses that have heavy work loads they definatly benefit from being let down and when you let them down they will gain wieght .
		
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Yep, 'fraid so.



twiggy2 said:



			There is a point it is thought that horses produce more insulin as the summer and spring flush of grass comes through and their insulin levels are very low during winter so mimicking the natural levels of sugar and feed during the year and allowing the horses weight to fluctuate as it would in the wild* would reduce the cases of insulin related laminitis and all linked conditions. The belief is that keeping horses weight consistent year round is creating lots and lots of health issues for horses.*

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Letting a horse drop weight over winter so it can gorge in spring is not a good management strategy. Where did you get this notion that maintaining a constant weight is creating lots and lots of health issues ?


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## cptrayes (23 December 2013)

twiggy2 said:



			I would want neither overweight or underweight, weight can fluctuate without being either. 
more and more evidence is indicating allow horse to be leaner at times of the year is beneficial to their long term health
		
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I can see exactly why this could well be true Twiggy. but I think it might help if you can point us to some of the evidence?  I would be very interested to read it. I was fascinated with Michael Moseley's documentary on how healthy it is for humans to fast for two days a week.


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## NativePonyLover (23 December 2013)

Mr P certainly isn't starved over winter to loose weight (he has ad-lib hay when stabled overnight, two small feeds a day for his supplements and is rugged throughout the worst of the winter weather) but it doesn't alarm me if he drops a couple of kg's as I know he'll put it back in the Spring/Summer. 

He's not allowed to 'gorge' but being a ridiculously good doer he will put vitamin over the Spring & Summer (despite being muzzled when needed, given soaked and rinsed adlib hay over night, decrease to an even smaller feed a day & an increased workload to help 'fight the flab'). 

He's neither obese in the Summer or a hat rack over the winter - but he does, with all the will in the world, fluctuate a little with the seasons. 

My vet, my barefoot trimmer (who is very much an ambassador for preventing laminitis) & a nutritionalist have all seen him over summer and winter & are happy with the change of a few kg's with his weight.


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## pennyturner (23 December 2013)

As a native pony owner, I'm quite amused by the idea that feeding ad-lib haylege is some kind of baseline of acceptable.  If mine had as much hay as they were prepared to eat they'd look like the stay-puft marshmallow man!
Having to scour the field foraging in winter does them no harm at all.

But then, a couple of them would get fat just looking at the lichen on the fence posts.


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## MotherOfChickens (23 December 2013)

pennyturner said:



			As a native pony owner, I'm quite amused by the idea that feeding ad-lib haylege is some kind of baseline of acceptable.  If mine had as much hay as they were prepared to eat they'd look like the stay-puft marshmallow man!
Having to scour the field foraging in winter does them no harm at all.

But then, a couple of them would get fat just looking at the lichen on the fence posts.
		
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I agree, especially the one I got as a morbidly obese 14yo who is now 21 (not morbidly obese) and retired! I won't feed any of mine haylege,they get good stalky hay mixed with straw and they don't get it adlib. They are on Scottish hill grazing with only natural shelter and are a good weight-no rugs, no starving and no feeding stuff they simply don't require.


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## khalswitz (23 December 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Are you sure? There appears to be very strong scientific evidence that eating only one 500 calorie meal on two days a week carries very significant health benefits for humans.
		
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It is different though for humans to fast two days a week, to horses becoming lean over a whole season and putting weight back on in the spring. The 5:2 diet keeps your metabolism working well without getting sluggish, and helps stop excessive calorie intake associated with modern diets - however, if I change my horse's feed so that on his two days off per week, he gets reduced calories, then it's a similar situation ( I do feed more on days of work, and cut down when not). It's not a weight change, it's short term changes to encourage an active metabolism. 

However long term weight gain and weight loss is different - my friend had an eating disorder, and used to fluctuate weight over a few months from chubby to slim and back, not hugely skinny to obese, but still the doctor said this was the most worrying thing, as you put your body under a lot of stress doing this. Personally I would try not to let my horse 'drop off' as a cycle of weight loss and weight gain is not what I consider healthy or ideal management, particularly if they are working (like my doctor was always very concerned when I was losing weight for coxing, as weight loss whilst maintaining high levels of exercise have to be monitored).

And to whoever said about not going overweight o underweight, just dropping a few kilos, I would love to know how you have that much control. My horse, when he starts dropping he plummets like a hat rack, in order just to lose 'a few kilos' he needs feeding up! I think allowing horses to drop off is fine if they are natives, looking too good, and not in work, although not what I'd call ideal as personally I wouldn't like them too good off the summer, but I think in winter weight can drop off too quickly to avoid them looking on the skinny side of lean very quickly. Certainly my last four have been like that.


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## cptrayes (23 December 2013)

khalswitz said:



			It is different though for humans to fast two days a week, to horses becoming lean over a whole season and putting weight back on in the spring. The 5:2 diet keeps your metabolism working well without getting sluggish, and helps stop excessive calorie intake associated with modern diets - however, if I change my horse's feed so that on his two days off per week, he gets reduced calories, then it's a similar situation ( I do feed more on days of work, and cut down when not). It's not a weight change, it's short term changes to encourage an active metabolism. 

However long term weight gain and weight loss is different - my friend had an eating disorder, and used to fluctuate weight over a few months from chubby to slim and back, not hugely skinny to obese, but still the doctor said this was the most worrying thing, as you put your body under a lot of stress doing this. Personally I would try not to let my horse 'drop off' as a cycle of weight loss and weight gain is not what I consider healthy or ideal management, particularly if they are working (like my doctor was always very concerned when I was losing weight for coxing, as weight loss whilst maintaining high levels of exercise have to be monitored).

And to whoever said about not going overweight o underweight, just dropping a few kilos, I would love to know how you have that much control. My horse, when he starts dropping he plummets like a hat rack, in order just to lose 'a few kilos' he needs feeding up! I think allowing horses to drop off is fine if they are natives, looking too good, and not in work, although not what I'd call ideal as personally I wouldn't like them too good off the summer, but I think in winter weight can drop off too quickly to avoid them looking on the skinny side of lean very quickly. Certainly my last four have been like that.
		
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I am not saying horses are the same as humans.

I am saying that if something that goes completely against the three square meals a day rule that we were all brought up to believe works for human health, why would a natural winter weight loss not be as beneficial for horses??


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## Tnavas (23 December 2013)

If you have a horse that is prone to being overweight or developing laminitis it is seriously most important to allow it to drop weight in the winter.

I read a veterinary article some months ago that horses that are allowed to reduce weight in winter are less likely to have problems with laminitis. It's most definitely the way I control my Clydesdales weight - I allow her to get light by the end of winter. Since reading the article and carrying out the system I have had less weight problems with her than feeding her to maintain weight.

In general the majority of horse owners over feed their horses all the time. They DO NOT need masses of extra food. We used to compete our ponies successfully off grass. The modern trend of feeding anything and everything is seriously damaging the health of our horses. Serenity us currently ridden daily and not an extra morsel passes her lips but the grass in her paddock. She looks great, has heaps of energy and is fit.

I also save myself heaps by not being hoodwinked by all the feed companies to buy their feed.


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## madlady (23 December 2013)

All of mine drop off in the winter.

They are all native types and very good doers but my summer grazing is 'rough' grazing.  Not only is it rough it's nearly vertical in places   they do all put weight on though.

Even though they do all put on weight none have ever had lami and all are reasonably fit thanks to the location of the grazing - they have to work pretty hard and they are always full of energy and pinging around.

When they come in for winter I notice that (for the ridden ones) they lose the grass belly and tone up quite quickly, the semi retired broodmare and the ancient semi retired pony do get put on rations though as they don't do as much work.

They all come out of winter on the lean side but fairly fit, during summer they all look well - by that I mean bright, alert, gleaming coats and lots of energy - they spend a lot of time charging around the 30+ acres that they are turned out on and they play a lot.


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## khalswitz (23 December 2013)

cptrayes said:



			I am not saying horses are the same as humans.

I am saying that if something that goes completely against the three square meals a day rule that we were all brought up to believe works for human health, why would a natural winter weight loss not be as beneficial for horses??
		
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I agree, question what you're taught - it's the only way things change. But the human three square meals thing originated back in the days when we ate lower calorie food and did more hard, physical work - so the way humans live, and what they eat, has changed, so the system no longer is the most efficient as we don't need the same energy levels, and we eat more than we need therefore encouraging reduced metabolic efficiency. 

You can apply the same to horses - horses in the wild would gain weight and drop off, but they aren't in the wild now, so management systems should be different. IMO, anyway.


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## lastchancer (23 December 2013)

I'm sure there was an article in the BHS magazine a few months ago discussing the benefits of letting horses drop off a little, something to due with insulin I believe. 

People are conned into spending loads of money on unneeded feed and supplements. These all claim to have scientific benefits, all researched by the feed companies of course...

You can get special feeds for lami's, fatties, fizzies, the vast majority of these horses would do best, turned out and fed on basic fodder, and a mineral lick. To be fair, in this country 24/7 turn out isn't always that easy to come by but is it doable.


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## khalswitz (23 December 2013)

lastchancer said:



			I'm sure there was an article in the BHS magazine a few months ago discussing the benefits of letting horses drop off a little, something to due with insulin I believe. 

People are conned into spending loads of money on unneeded feed and supplements. These all claim to have scientific benefits, all researched by the feed companies of course...

You can get special feeds for lami's, fatties, fizzies, the vast majority of these horses would do best, turned out and fed on basic fodder, and a mineral lick. To be fair, in this country 24/7 turn out isn't always that easy to come by but is it doable.
		
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See, I have mine on 24/7/365 turnout, and whilst is is mentally better for him, and alleviates his EPSM, he loses more weight in winter out than when he used to be in. He gets ad lib haylage and two decent bucket feeds a day, but still loses weight, particularly in the late winter/early spring. The turnout, despite being rugged appropriately, does cause him to lose condition. I would still rather he was out,  but it means I can't afford for him to start dropping weight, or he becomes a hat rack very quickly and struggles to put the weight back on. He had a month off last year at the end of winter because I couldn't justify riding him when he was losing weight!


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## TGM (23 December 2013)

I think a lot depends on what level you are letting your horses 'drop off' to, and how large they are getting in the summer.  It is dangerous to let horses and ponies get fat, even if it is only for half a year, so I couldn't condone a regime where the animals were allowed to get obese in summer with the excuse they would drop off over the winter.  However, if someone has a good doer and has managed their weight sensibly over summer so they were a condition score 3 in autumn (on a 1 to 5 scale) then I could understand letting them lose a bit so that they started spring at condition score 2.5, for example.


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## Gazen (23 December 2013)

I try to maintain a balanced weight all year round especially as we also compete all year round.  This summer I found that keeping her weight on was an issue as the quality of grazing this year was awful and she was being ridden almost every day, so she was given hard feed (sugar beet plus alfalfa mix) throughout the summer.  This makes it easy for me to monitor her weight; what hole is my girth on?  Going down a hole, reduce feed, going up a hole, increase feed.


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## cptrayes (23 December 2013)

khalswitz said:



			I agree, question what you're taught - it's the only way things change. But the human three square meals thing originated back in the days when we ate lower calorie food and did more hard, physical work - so the way humans live, and what they eat, has changed, so the system no longer is the most efficient as we don't need the same energy levels, and we eat more than we need therefore encouraging reduced metabolic efficiency. 

You can apply the same to horses - horses in the wild would gain weight and drop off, but they aren't in the wild now, so management systems should be different. IMO, anyway.
		
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I think you may not be familiar with the human research. The issue is not total calorie intake or expenditure. The surprise finding was that if humans have two days a week eating only one 500 calorie meal each of those days, there are significant health benefits no matter what they eat on the other days of the week.

I think it's entirely possible that significant weight loss might 'reset' the metabolism of horses in some way to make it safer for them to be on the fat side in summer. Fasting, of course, is not a good idea for a creature with such a long floppy gut. 

I'm certainly happy for my guys to mimic nature and come into the spring grass flush on the lean side.


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## Tnavas (23 December 2013)

lastchancer said:



			I'm sure there was an article in the BHS magazine a few months ago discussing the benefits of letting horses drop off a little, something to due with insulin I believe. 

People are conned into spending loads of money on unneeded feed and supplements. These all claim to have scientific benefits, all researched by the feed companies of course...

You can get special feeds for lami's, fatties, fizzies, the vast majority of these horses would do best, turned out and fed on basic fodder, and a mineral lick. To be fair, in this country 24/7 turn out isn't always that easy to come by but is it doable.
		
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lastchancer - So glad that there is another person in the world that shares my belief! When I feed it's the b asics, Oats, Chaff and Sugarbeet, minerals they get via a multi mineral block.

I loathe strip grazing too - I see so many overweight horses on strip grazing that are unable to get out of a walk because the area they are on is so small. My Clydesdale asd the two welsh ponies live on a billiard table paddock. To get a mouthful of grass takes them ages as they have to nip off very short lengths and in the meantime they are constantly moving. Too much grass? Find a farmer with a few sheep and offer him some grazing - they can knock back the long grass really quickly.

I also find that strip grazing damages the grass far more than allowing the horse full access to the paddock - with strip grazing they are walking over the same patch so often that they pug it up really quickly and then weeds get stuck in.

Last year one of the liveries strip grazed her paddock - it's now a mass of weeds whereas the rest of the property is looking lovely.


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## Jimmy260910 (23 December 2013)

I think it probably depends on the type of horse and what they're used for, my welsh D x is clipped in winter because of the amount of work he does and if he isnt well rugged and fed the right amount he loses condition and drops weight dramatically, but I know others who don't clip and their horses lose weight in winter (still do the same amount of exercise) but their weight loss isn't dramatic. I think it's just due to the way we have domesticated these animals, if my boy wasn't clipped and I allowed him to live like to wild dude he is then I know I wouldn't go through the issue of feeding and rugs every year, I'd love for him to go au natural but I also want to be able to use him for longer than 20 mins without him breaking into a sweat! (he's a fuzzy beast).


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## NellRosk (23 December 2013)

Thanks for the replies everyone, some interesting arguments and links.  I wish some people would read before posting and not accuse me or anyone else of starving horses in winter. Similarily I asked people who had natives and good doers, so for those saying no they don't let their poor doers drop off because they would look awful... I specifically didn't include them! Also can't remember who it was but I was slated for calling my two 'fatties'. Sorry for any confusion caused, they are not overweight just greedy and quite thick set which is to be expected with their breed.


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## khalswitz (23 December 2013)

cptrayes said:



			I think you may not be familiar with the human research. The issue is not total calorie intake or expenditure. The surprise finding was that if humans have two days a week eating only one 500 calorie meal each of those days, there are significant health benefits no matter what they eat on the other days of the week.

I think it's entirely possible that significant weight loss might 'reset' the metabolism of horses in some way to make it safer for them to be on the fat side in summer. Fasting, of course, is not a good idea for a creature with such a long floppy gut. 

I'm certainly happy for my guys to mimic nature and come into the spring grass flush on the lean side.
		
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No I am familiar with it - like I said it's about stopping the metabolism getting sluggish. I actually did the 5:2 diet for a while, but when I got a more physically demanding job I found my fasting days took too much out of me (I began to feel faint on fasting days when working, and if I restricted them to my weekends, then I struggled with energy levels for riding due to fitting all my work and gym sessions in during the week), so I stopped.

I'lll try and explain what I meant better, as I don't think I articulated it well - when people talk about letting horses 'drop weight', it's a long term (say six month) deterioration in condition and then a six month gain in condition, on a repeated cycle. The human 5:2 diet is functionally different as it's not about losing weight over time, it's about enhancing your metabolic action due to short term feed changes. 

The 5:2 diet works well, but if you look at people who binge eat and then starve themselves on a cycle on a longer terms basis, say several weeks at a time, you get very unhealthy metabolic fluctuations - the body becomes more prone to putting on weight etc (will look up the research, it's very interesting). Therefore I struggle to see how this is different to long term losing and gaining weight in horses, certainly more alike than 'dropping off' and the 5:2 diet. Does that make my point clearer? I'm not the most articulate on this subject as it something I approached before I became a student, so never learned the scientific wording etc.


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## Goldenstar (23 December 2013)

khalswitz said:



			No I am familiar with it - like I said it's about stopping the metabolism getting sluggish. I actually did the 5:2 diet for a while, but when I got a more physically demanding job I found my fasting days took too much out of me (I began to feel faint on fasting days when working, and if I restricted them to my weekends, then I struggled with energy levels for riding due to fitting all my work and gym sessions in during the week), so I stopped.

I'lll try and explain what I meant better, as I don't think I articulated it well - when people talk about letting horses 'drop weight', it's a long term (say six month) deterioration in condition and then a six month gain in condition, on a repeated cycle. The human 5:2 diet is functionally different as it's not about losing weight over time, it's about enhancing your metabolic action due to short term feed changes. 

The 5:2 diet works well, but if you look at people who binge eat and then starve themselves on a cycle on a longer terms basis, say several weeks at a time, you get very unhealthy metabolic fluctuations - the body becomes more prone to putting on weight etc (will look up the research, it's very interesting). Therefore I struggle to see how this is different to long term losing and gaining weight in horses, certainly more alike than 'dropping off' and the 5:2 diet. Does that make my point clearer? I'm not the most articulate on this subject as it something I approached before I became a student, so never learned the scientific wording etc.
		
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But horses who wieght fluctuates are not always bingeing and fasting sometimes they are working hard and lose wieght as a natural consequence of the conditioning work they do .
And that is natural and healthy things for a horse to do.
I don't there's any evidence that you can compare herbivore and omnivore metabolisms.


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## khalswitz (24 December 2013)

Goldenstar said:



			But horses who wieght fluctuates are not always bingeing and fasting sometimes they are working hard and lose wieght as a natural consequence of the conditioning work they do .
And that is natural and healthy things for a horse to do.
I don't there's any evidence that you can compare herbivore and omnivore metabolisms.
		
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Once you get past the digestion process, you'd be surprised how similar most mammalian biochemistry is. And I did veterinary science as my degree, so I'm not talking out my bum on that one... There are slight differences but once your foodstuffs have been absorbed the process becomes very similar. Even equine digestion isn't that far removed from human, certainly not compared with ruminants etc, and equine digestion is considered in the same group as human digestion (along with pigs and dogs) when comparing with ruminants, so they are certainly comparable. 

I understand SOME aren't binging and fasting, but if you were to use winter as a weight control rather than horses dropping weight to fit condition due to exercise, then to a degree you are forcing your horse to fast over the winter, and for them to be tubs come summer you are allowing then to overeat. So there is a link there.

 A very slight weight drop in winter is one thing, but I know some people with natives who let them get hideously fat in summer and they drop right off in winter to look poor. I think that's fine if they're in the wild - but they're not, they can't did better pasture themselves and are expected to work on top. I don't think it's healthy to be yoyoing between fat and thin. I think most horses put on some condition in summer and lose it in winter, but encouraging people to aim to maintain a healthy weight is better than encouraging them to let horses 'drop off' as it can so easily tip into bad management.


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## Goldenstar (24 December 2013)

But why assume people allow their horses to lose wieght byfasting .
fasting= eating no food or extremely little .
It's perfectly possible to get horses and ponies to lose wieght in winter by using the combination of poor quality winter grass and low calorie additional forage ( things like soaked hay and oat straw ).
As long as someone is checking their droppings there's no risk in that .


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## khalswitz (24 December 2013)

Goldenstar said:



			But why assume people allow their horses to lose wieght byfasting .
fasting= eating no food or extremely little .
It's perfectly possible to get horses and ponies to lose wieght in winter by using the combination of poor quality winter grass and low calorie additional forage ( things like soaked hay and oat straw ).
As long as someone is checking their droppings there's no risk in that .
		
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I agree with you as to that, like I said my horse drops weight TOO easily in winter, but remember it was the cyclic weight gain/loss I objected to. I also think it's healthier to try and maintain a good weight rather than use winter to correct for the summer. Especially when the horse is in work.


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## cptrayes (24 December 2013)

Duplicate


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## cptrayes (24 December 2013)

​


			
				jihadists said:
			
		


			. I also think it's healthier to try and maintain a good weight rather than use winter to correct for the summer. Especially when the horse is in work.
		
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I'm not convinced this is the case and I would love to see some research done if it has not been already.

We now know that there are switches in DNA which can be activated and deactivated by environment and exercise. I think it's entirely possible that becoming a bit thin in winter resets a horse DNA switch to make it much safer for the horse to eat spring and summer grass. I don't know if that's the case, but I can easily envisage that it might be.


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## Penumbra (24 December 2013)

Unfortunately there is difficulty in doing very long term feed trials that produce really meaningful results. Even attracting and maintaining funding for such long term studies can be difficult. Therefore a lot of animal nutrition research is either focused on farm animals (where there is a lot of money to be made) or patchy and can have issues with it. I'm not convinced by anyone who says "the research says this" because a lot of long term studies lack adequate controls or reliability and therefore don't actually prove anything. 

I think on this thread people are comparing very different breeds of horses that have been bred for different purposes and thus have different metabolisms. Whilst they have the same biology, I don't think you can manage, say a native pony and an arab or TB in exactly the same way even if they are in exactlyt the same work as they have been bred to cope with different conditions, levels of work and feeding. 

Whilst the evidence does seem to suggest that allowing horses/ponies prone to laminitis or being overweight to drop weight over winter can help prevent reocurrences of laminitis, often this is compared to horses that are overweight in winter, rather than those who maintain a healthy weight all year round. If this is the only way you have of managing a good doer then it is obviously better than nothing at all. However, it is not fair to ask the pony to do the same level of work when at extremes of weight. 

Horses that are in medium to hard work are often working harder or at higher intensities than they would be in the wild, so they need some kind of extra food to support that. With domestic horses, we are asking them to do things that do not always come naturally to them, and they should be fed in a way that supports this, not the way we think is most natural. 

If you look at the ponies on places like Dartmoor and Bodmin Moor, which are arguably kept "naturally"- some do become very poor and may even die over winter. That is obviously not something people want for their "pet" animals.


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## Tnavas (24 December 2013)

cptrayes said:



​

I'm not convinced this is the case and I would love to see some research done if it has not been already.

We now know that there are switches in DNA which can be activated and deactivated by environment and exercise. I think it's entirely possible that becoming a bit thin in winter resets a horse DNA switch to make it much safer for the horse to eat spring and summer grass. I don't know if that's the case, but I can easily envisage that it might be.
		
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There has been research done but I can't remember where I read it. I will search my Favourites pages and see if I can find the documentation.

Since reading it I have tried it along with my friends two Welsh ponies and it certainly seems to work


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## cptrayes (24 December 2013)

Tnavas said:



			There has been research done but I can't remember where I read it. I will search my Favourites pages and see if I can find the documentation.

Since reading it I have tried it along with my friends two Welsh ponies and it certainly seems to work
		
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If love to read it if you can find it Tnavas. You wouldn't be wasting your time


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## babymare (24 December 2013)

Mmmm baby was a native do gooder with excessive stress issues from sight and past owner. she was in a field of good grazing but her need for routine meant stri grasing etc was out question. a muzzle would have sent her crazy so kept routine of stabled at night insummer. come winter no rugs at all but fed to weather conditions. If dropped below frezzing hay increased but no rugs. That way she came out of winter a tad low weight wise. A bit 
more to it than that but sometimes you have to use nature best way possible


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## Magicmillbrook (24 December 2013)

pennyturner said:



			As a native pony owner, I'm quite amused by the idea that feeding ad-lib haylege is some kind of baseline of acceptable.  If mine had as much hay as they were prepared to eat they'd look like the stay-puft marshmallow man!
Having to scour the field foraging in winter does them no harm at all.

But then, a couple of them would get fat just looking at the lichen on the fence posts.
		
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Same here. My pony was morbidly obese when I got him last Oct, I used the winter to my advantage, he got regular (4 x per day) rations of soaked hay mixed with straw so he had plenty of fibre and didn't feel hungry, a feed balancer to provide his vits, minerals and essential fatty acids, was unrugged and doing daily light/slow work.  It worked a treat and by the following summer was at his ideal weight.  If he had adlib he would have just stood and eating, with my regime he had to forage round the field between hay feeds.

This winter he is rugged with a lightweight for my convenience as we do more ridden work, but I will not worry if he drops off a bit as he will no doubt gain a little in the spring, at least until the clocks go forwards and I can ride more.  No one is suggesting huge weight fluctuation are healthy, just that using the winter can be a helpful tool in the fight to keep good doers healthy.


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## rascal (24 December 2013)

Ours are native types but we don't need to let them lose weight, as they are not allowed to get fat in the first place. I would rather restrict grazing and feed hay in summer than let them get fat. We have a welsh a and a welsh d, both are the right weight. Hubbys shire cross is an extremely good doer but we don't let her stuff herself.


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## Spring Feather (25 December 2013)

cptrayes said:



​

I'm not convinced this is the case and I would love to see some research done if it has not been already.
		
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Tnavas said:



			There has been research done but I can't remember where I read it.
		
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Yes there was research done fairly recently.  I read the report.  Very interesting, logical and made a great deal of sense to me.  I also can't remember where it was published though, some vet journal but I can't remember which one.


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## spotty_pony (25 December 2013)

If I let my horse 'drop off' in Winter there would be nothing left of him! I have to feed him more in Winter than in Summer. He is very fit and we Hunt so he does need it and is not being fed for the sake of it.


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## samlf (25 December 2013)

rascal said:



			Ours are native types but we don't need to let them lose weight, as they are not allowed to get fat in the first place. I would rather restrict grazing and feed hay in summer than let them get fat. We have a welsh a and a welsh d, both are the right weight. Hubbys shire cross is an extremely good doer but we don't let her stuff herself.
		
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So what if you restrict grazing to less than 1/3 acre per horse all summer, feed soaked hay, exercise for 2hr per day, don't feed hard feed and they still end up over condition score 3 going into winter?? 
It's not a get out clause for people who can't be bothered!


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## Kat (25 December 2013)

spotty_pony said:



			If I let my horse 'drop off' in Winter there would be nothing left of him! I have to feed him more in Winter than in Summer. He is very fit and we Hunt so he does need it and is not being fed for the sake of it.
		
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Likewise. I struggle to keep weight on mine, she has oats  beet and linseed all year round!


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## Spotsrock (25 December 2013)

If u let weight fluctuate constantly do u have seasonal saddle changes to ensure good fit despite the different shape ur horse will be from one season to another?


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## catkin (25 December 2013)

Spotsrock said:



			If u let weight fluctuate constantly do u have seasonal saddle changes to ensure good fit despite the different shape ur horse will be from one season to another?
		
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most certainly do. 

The same as saddle fit is checked as the horses' type of work changes through the year.


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## Megibo (25 December 2013)

I'm trying to let my horse drop off weight...! 

Usually she drops a good amount of weight in winter but she's been stabled alot this winter on ad-lib hay and straw so she's fat! Going to change bedding soon and start cutting down her feed-its difficult as I've recently sorted out her ulcers so can't leave her without fibre too long.


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## dizzyneddy (25 December 2013)

KristmasKat said:



			Likewise. I struggle to keep weight on mine, she has oats  beet and linseed all year round!
		
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l'm the same with my ISH horse she lost quite abit of weight & condition after last winter even when she had 3 feeds a day with access to plenty of hay. Our two natives lost abit of weight but maintained their condition. The only thing was they were out 24/7 because we moved yards & there was no stabling. In preparation for this winter we had the stables built & l started feeding that mare alittle earlier & added fibrebeet. When the weather is bad or she's standing at the gate wanting to come in l bring them in which l think has helped because she's looking to have kept her condition on. Every horse is individual & what works with one wont necessarily work for another but l'd rather mine be on the lean side than overweight as its no good for them but if l was concerned l'd contact my vet & talk to a feed nutrientist for advice


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## TarrSteps (25 December 2013)

khalswitz said:



			I agree with you as to that, like I said my horse drops weight TOO easily in winter, but remember it was the cyclic weight gain/loss I objected to. I also think it's healthier to try and maintain a good weight rather than use winter to correct for the summer. Especially when the horse is in work.
		
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But I don't think that is actually what is being discussed is it? It's not about correcting obesity, it's about a "natural" fluctuation in condition. I've read the same study as a couple of other have mentioned - was it not about optimising pituitary function? 

Work is an added stress to be considered, for sure. But I don't think we are talking about horses in medium to hard work through the winter, generally speaking. It isn't beyond the realm of possibility that our idea of "ideal" or even "normal" weight has become so skewed that we are actually keeping horses fat (metabolically speaking) year 'round now and interfering with aspects we might not even fully understand yet.

Not found the article I wanted but this is interesting, too:http://www.liv.ac.uk/equine-practice/Documents/Obesity_Management.pdf


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## cptrayes (25 December 2013)

Spotsrock said:



			If u let weight fluctuate constantly do u have seasonal saddle changes to ensure good fit despite the different shape ur horse will be from one season to another?
		
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Yes it's why I use air flocking and changeable gullet plates.


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## khalswitz (26 December 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			But I don't think that is actually what is being discussed is it? It's not about correcting obesity, it's about a "natural" fluctuation in condition. I've read the same study as a couple of other have mentioned - was it not about optimising pituitary function? 

Work is an added stress to be considered, for sure. But I don't think we are talking about horses in medium to hard work through the winter, generally speaking. It isn't beyond the realm of possibility that our idea of "ideal" or even "normal" weight has become so skewed that we are actually keeping horses fat (metabolically speaking) year 'round now and interfering with aspects we might not even fully understand yet.

Not found the article I wanted but this is interesting, too:http://www.liv.ac.uk/equine-practice/Documents/Obesity_Management.pdf

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Hormonallly, horses overweight and predisposed to lami associate with high leptin levels - you want reduced leptin production, stimulated by increased exercise. Leptin is produced in adipose tissue, particularly brown, afair.

The initial discussion was why people didn't allow their horses to drop weight - whilst I agree many are obese and would benefit from weight loss schemes, I just don't think it is good management to use winter to do this, as weight loss is better achieved through exercise and feeding for the workload than by just cutting food intake. Better for the whole metabolism. 

On my phone so can't do any paper research, will do though as it's interesting.


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## Tnavas (26 December 2013)

khalswitz said:



			The initial discussion was why people didn't allow their horses to drop weight - whilst I agree many are obese and would benefit from weight loss schemes, I just don't think it is good management to use winter to do this, as weight loss is better achieved through exercise and feeding for the workload than by just cutting food intake. Better for the whole metabolism.
		
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NO - that WAS NOT the OP's original comment - this is

_I see so many threads in feeding about how to maintain weight in winter. I'm completely the opposite, got *2 fatties so I'm perfectly happy to let them lose a bit over winter*. Makes my job of keeping them trim in summer a lot easier. Obviously I'm not talking about oldies or poor doers, but people with natives or good doers... *Do any of you let your horses naturally lose weight in winter?* Surely this is what they do in the wild? (Just to add mine get ad lib haylage but I do not/ will not give them masses of hard feed to maintain weight)._

Horses naturally inclined to be overweight ARE better off if allowed to lose weight through the winter - it affects how their bodies deal with the increase in spring grass and the reduced risk of them developing laminitis. 

It is what happens in the wild and though those horses may not work for a living - their natural workload does increase through the winter months - they have to travel further to get enough food to survive. 

I know it works for the benefit of the horse - since my Clydesdale stopped growing at 5 I'd battled with keeping her weight down. For the past two winters since reading the article about allowing horses to lose weight in winter I have had no problem with keeping her weight under control and to date not a sign of any laminitis for her or her two Welsh pony paddock mates who follow the same regime.


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## cptrayes (26 December 2013)

khalswitz said:



			The initial discussion was why people didn't allow their horses to drop weight - whilst I agree many are obese and would benefit from weight loss schemes, I just don't think it is good management to use winter to do this, as weight loss is better achieved through exercise and feeding for the workload than by just cutting food intake. Better for the whole metabolism. 

On my phone so can't do any paper research, will do though as it's interesting.
		
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I don't think I agree with you that it is worse for the horse's health to use winter to drop the weight.  It's something that their metabolism has been honed by evolution to deal with. So I doubt very much that it is actually harmful, or that it is preferable to maintain the same weight all year round. . I also, as I have said before, believe it may reset DNA switches to make it safer, irrespective of the weight of the animal at the time, for horses to eat spring grass.

Do you know that the current treatment for extreme insulin resistance is to starve the horse down to what looks like a serious welfare case, and then let it put weight back on?


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## Tnavas (26 December 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Do you know that the current treatment for extreme insulin resistance is to starve the horse down to what looks like a serious welfare case, and then let it put weight back on?
		
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That's very interesting - do you have a link to the research paper?


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## cptrayes (26 December 2013)

I didn't read the research, Tnavas, I watched my friends horse first hand as it was put through the 'treatment' under close veterinary observation. She was so thin when they called a halt to the starvation that there is no way she could have been turned out without a rug on without getting a visit from the RSPCA.

I think you'll find the research of you Google it, is all to do with hormones being produced by the fat itself. The horse was not huge, but had been left with lumpy hard deposits on the crest and rump from a previous home, and apparently these are what cause the trouble, and they won't go until the horse is rake thin.

It worked, the insulin levels dropped massively and the mare, a brood mare,  became fertile again and was put in foal. On weaning, she had developed Cushings, and I believe that there is increasing evidence that IR may be a precursor to full blown Cushings. She had tested negative a year before.


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## pennyturner (26 December 2013)

Spotsrock said:



			If u let weight fluctuate constantly do u have seasonal saddle changes to ensure good fit despite the different shape ur horse will be from one season to another?
		
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Generally the weght fluctuation isn't enough to need it for mine.  We did have an exception last spring.  I have a Dartmoor stallon who is the best doer I've ever seen.  He's in an XXW saddle, with a gullet so wide you could saddle a dining room table with it.  He normally maintains this shape, more or less, but did drop off with the late spring - enough that I bought him an old XW show saddle for a couple of months until the grass came through.

Generally we expect to see a couple of holes difference on the girth between October and April.


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## catkin (26 December 2013)

khalswitz said:



			Hormonallly, horses overweight and predisposed to lami associate with high leptin levels - you want reduced leptin production, stimulated by increased exercise. Leptin is produced in adipose tissue, particularly brown, afair.

The initial discussion was why people didn't allow their horses to drop weight - whilst I agree many are obese and would benefit from weight loss schemes, I just don't think it is good management to use winter to do this, as weight loss is better achieved through exercise and feeding for the workload than by just cutting food intake. Better for the whole metabolism. 

On my phone so can't do any paper research, will do though as it's interesting.
		
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yes, the leptin level is one of the factors in horses developing EMS etc and the current vetinary advice is reducing weight by a strict diet and exercise programme to manage the condition. Depending upon the horse and circumstances a seasonal reduction in weight can 're-set' the metabolism.

Relying on exercise alone to maintain a steady weight can be quite a high risk strategy -  it only takes a domestic crisis or injury at the wrong time of year and you can very very quickly find yourself in a lot of trouble with a good-doer tipping towards laminitis.....


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## TarrSteps (26 December 2013)

I think it's important to note, too, that we are talking about weight fluctuations within a HEALTHY range in otherwise HEALTHY horses. No one is advocating letting the horse get pig fat then turning it into a hat rack, or not supplying basic nutritional needs. 

I have a horses living out who actually struggles to maintain his weight more here in winter than he did in Canada, interestingly enough, although I'm sure there are many variables in play, not just climate. He is also very 'immune sensitive', prone to vasculitis, allergic reactions etc.  I've found the most useful thing I can do for him going into winter is make sure his NUTRITIONAL needs are being met, not just his caloric ones. A high grade vitamin, an easily digestible fat source, and a small amount of top quality low sugar hard feed, along with his meh quality forage keeps him much healthier. In Canada the general quality of hay was better and there were more options, so the supplement was not needed. My only point is that concentrating on weight to the exclusion of nutrition isn't the way to go either and each situation has to be weighed individually. A 'light' horse isn't necessarily unhealthy and a heavy one isn't necessarily 'well'. 

Re changes in saddle fit. . .I'm sure I'll be pilloried for this but it's standard practice in many cases to use pads of varying thickness to even out minor fluctuations in fit. I know this is Just Not Done in this forum but just making the point it works for many. . . .


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## khalswitz (26 December 2013)

catkin said:



			yes, the leptin level is one of the factors in horses developing EMS etc and the current vetinary advice is reducing weight by a strict diet and exercise programme to manage the condition. Depending upon the horse and circumstances a seasonal reduction in weight can 're-set' the metabolism.

Relying on exercise alone to maintain a steady weight can be quite a high risk strategy -  it only takes a domestic crisis or injury at the wrong time of year and you can very very quickly find yourself in a lot of trouble with a good-doer tipping towards laminitis.....
		
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I said exercise and work relevant feeding - I certainly adjust my feeding if my horse gets time off. Common sense, not a risky strategy.

Cptrayes - yes, like I said leptin is produced in adipose tissue, so decreasing leptin levels is done by dropping fat levels. It's why obesity is linked with lami/ems/cushings etc. Also, I know there is evidence re DNA switches etc in humans regarding short term feast and fast, but I've been searching and can't find anything equivalent in seasonal weight change in horses. If you find, I would love to read, but tbh the two situations are so different I'm not sure you can compare them, as I've already said.

I've had natives in the past, including two with history of lami, and with correct management, feeding and workload, I've never had fat ponies is summer or thin in winter. If they dropped too much in winter it would be difficult to allow enough weight gain in summer without them becoming fatties - maintaining weight is much easier. However I am lucky in that we have very good horse grass - poor quality high quantity - so it is much easier to maintain weight, and with the poor doers almost too easy to lose it...


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## catkin (26 December 2013)

Well said TS, that's exactly it!

PS - my saddle fitter agrees with you on the pads for saddle fitting,  - but then they have first-hand knowledge of truely fittening up hard-working horses and do similar in that situation too.


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## khalswitz (26 December 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			I think it's important to note, too, that we are talking about weight fluctuations within a HEALTHY range in otherwise HEALTHY horses. No one is advocating letting the horse get pig fat then turning it into a hat rack, or not supplying basic nutritional needs. 

I have a horses living out who actually struggles to maintain his weight more here in winter than he did in Canada, interestingly enough, although I'm sure there are many variables in play, not just climate. He is also very 'immune sensitive', prone to vasculitis, allergic reactions etc.  I've found the most useful thing I can do for him going into winter is make sure his NUTRITIONAL needs are being met, not just his caloric ones. A high grade vitamin, an easily digestible fat source, and a small amount of top quality low sugar hard feed, along with his meh quality forage keeps him much healthier. In Canada the general quality of hay was better and there were more options, so the supplement was not needed. My only point is that concentrating on weight to the exclusion of nutrition isn't the way to go either and each situation has to be weighed individually. A 'light' horse isn't necessarily unhealthy and a heavy one isn't necessarily 'well'. 

Re changes in saddle fit. . .I'm sure I'll be pilloried for this but it's standard practice in many cases to use pads of varying thickness to even out minor fluctuations in fit. I know this is Just Not Done in this forum but just making the point it works for many. . . .
		
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RE saddle fit - I do this too. I pad up a bit in winter, and then down in summer. I use front and back risers where needed. Most of the pros I have as clients do the same - dressage riders are much funnier about perfect saddle fit than the eventers/sjers/endurance pros I've worked with. Adjustable gullets are good but on do so much...

And I think what you've said highlights it for me, Tarrsteps. I may be the only one, but in winter, I find it very hard to stop a horse losing weight once they start. I can maintain good doers at a decent weight in summer with work and type/amount of grazing, but in winter I would really struggle to put weight back on when they started losing it, and weight loss tends to go too far. I would much rather aim to maintain weight, as I think it's too easy to lose too much and then get into a horrible weight cycle. I would much rather be trying to lose weight in summer! 

However like I said, all of mine have been in the top end of light to medium work and out 24/7 so maintaining winter weight much harder.

And whoever said they naturally lose weight more in winter due to forging for food has obviously never met my lot - in winter they stand huddled round the hay bale for 98% of the time!!!


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## Goldenstar (26 December 2013)

My saddler has taught me a lot about how to use pads numahs and sheepskin to allow for shape changes in different situations.
Some horses change shape a lot .
And learning how to pad is a great help to keep horses working until the saddler can get to you.
Fatty is now three saddle widths smaller than he arrived with me .
ATM he's in one of my saddles as his own went out of fit a fortnight ago .
I have bitten the bullet and ordered another  for him .
He will wear his MTM bigger saddle in summer .
And will have a slim lean mean hunting machine saddle to deploy at this time of year its wont be here for a while as its MTM but I will have it for next year.
I have changed my winter supplement this year and I feel Fatty in particular is fitter and harder fit and his muscle tone  is really excellent so this perhaps suits him better than what I have used in the past.


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## MotherOfChickens (26 December 2013)

I think we need to define thin or even poor tbh, can't remember the last time I saw a 'thin' horse (not talking about bonafide rescues here, but leisure horses at home or at livery). Nearly every horse I see around here (bar at one comp livery) is too fat by varying degrees.

Also, if your horse is in hard work or not an easy keeper than the thread doesn't really apply?If you have a horse that drops weight rapidly and is hard to get to gain weight then of course you wouldn't let it in the first place.

Noone is saying not to feed them a scrap all winter in order to see jutting bones. But an awful lot of natives (and other good doers) are over fed and over rugged and go into spring too fat for safety. I have two Exmoors, one is retired due to having a shoulder lameness that leads him to being totally paddock sound-he is a professional companion. The other is (or has been) too young to work as such. These types don't need to be troughing ad lib hay by the gob full, they need to be walking about to forage and finding very little, of very little calorific value, very regularly and using energy by regulating their own temperature.


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## khalswitz (26 December 2013)

MotherOfChickens said:



			I think we need to define thin or even poor tbh, can't remember the last time I saw a 'thin' horse (not talking about bonafide rescues here, but leisure horses at home or at livery). Nearly every horse I see around here (bar at one comp livery) is too fat by varying degrees.

Also, if your horse is in hard work or not an easy keeper than the thread doesn't really apply?If you have a horse that drops weight rapidly and is hard to get to gain weight then of course you wouldn't let it in the first place.

Noone is saying not to feed them a scrap all winter in order to see jutting bones. But an awful lot of natives (and other good doers) are over fed and over rugged and go into spring too fat for safety. I have two Exmoors, one is retired due to having a shoulder lameness that leads him to being totally paddock sound-he is a professional companion. The other is (or has been) too young to work as such. These types don't need to be troughing ad lib hay by the gob full, they need to be walking about to forage and finding very little, of very little calorific value, very regularly and using energy by regulating their own temperature.
		
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I used to own Highlands, and a Welsh X - they were just as hard to put weight on in winter once they'd lost it. I don't like 'letting' them gain the weight in the spring, so I kept them at a good weight year round and didn't let them drop off or gain. The Highlands looked far too slim for showing during the summer, but I think of that positively tbh 

Lucky that you haven't seen thin horses - I was embarrassed by mine last year. He was a bit hippy, hollow flanked, and ribby - just thin, not a welfare case by any means, but I just didn't get the feeding right early on, he lost the weight, and especially with the hard winter, I couldn't get it back - 3x large bucket feeds and ad lib haylage didn't work! This year, I was on top of it and he hasn't dropped any condition - my aim.


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## Murphy88 (26 December 2013)

I haven't read all of the replies, however from a veterinary point of view, the ideal is allowing a horse's weight to fluctuate through the year - 5% overweight at the end of summer and 5% underweight at the end of winter. Horses are not designed to remain a constant weight all year round, and this trend has played a huge role in the problems with EMS/laminitis that we now see. It's not just a case of a horse's external appearance - when a horse puts weight on it lays down internal adipose tissue too, and it is these internal deposits that influence insulin metabolism etc. By allowing a horse to follow its natural cycle (and bear in mind, although domesticated, a horse in the wild is still the same as a horse in a stable) and lose weight, you are removing these internal fat deposits, and encouraging the horse to become more sensitive to insulin again - that way, when it enters spring it is in the best position to avoid laminitis. Certainly if anyone has ever attended a talk by Professor Knottenbelt and others who have done research on this subject, you would start to understand the problems we are causing our horses by trying to prevent them undergoing these metabolic changes. It has been several years since I researched this topic in depth for my uni dissertation, however as far as I'm aware research is now showing that any horse that has been overweight in the past will always be a laminitis risk, even if now a good weight, because those fat deposits are laid down and aren't removed fully when the horse diets back to a 'normal' weight. Hence why for metabolic syndrome ponies the dieting is so strict.

I advise all my clients that they should be aiming for these fluctuations through the year, and my own horses are living out 24/7 with no rugs and no supplemental feeding.


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## Wagtail (26 December 2013)

Murphy88 said:



			I haven't read all of the replies, however from a veterinary point of view, the ideal is allowing a horse's weight to fluctuate through the year - 5% overweight at the end of summer and 5% underweight at the end of winter. Horses are not designed to remain a constant weight all year round, and this trend has played a huge role in the problems with EMS/laminitis that we now see. It's not just a case of a horse's external appearance - when a horse puts weight on it lays down internal adipose tissue too, and it is these internal deposits that influence insulin metabolism etc. By allowing a horse to follow its natural cycle (and bear in mind, although domesticated, a horse in the wild is still the same as a horse in a stable) and lose weight, you are removing these internal fat deposits, and encouraging the horse to become more sensitive to insulin again - that way, when it enters spring it is in the best position to avoid laminitis. Certainly if anyone has ever attended a talk by Professor Knottenbelt and others who have done research on this subject, you would start to understand the problems we are causing our horses by trying to prevent them undergoing these metabolic changes. It has been several years since I researched this topic in depth for my uni dissertation, however as far as I'm aware research is now showing that any horse that has been overweight in the past will always be a laminitis risk, even if now a good weight, because those fat deposits are laid down and aren't removed fully when the horse diets back to a 'normal' weight. Hence why for metabolic syndrome ponies the dieting is so strict.

I advise all my clients that they should be aiming for these fluctuations through the year, and my own horses are living out 24/7 with no rugs and no supplemental feeding.
		
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Interesting post. I expect your winter grazing is better than mine though as the three that are out 24/7 (with rugs) would be hat racks if I didn't feed them. There are three of them out on five acres and they get around 10 kilos of haylage and one feed a day each. I would say they were bang on a condition score of 3. I agree with you regarding that once a horse has been allowed to get fat, then it predisposes it to the risk of EMS. However, surely if you do not allow the horse to get more than a condition score of 3 (out of 5) during the summer, and maintain it as such throughout the winter, then those harmful internal fat deposits will not be laid down. Surely the problem is letting them get fat in the first place? I cannot see how keeping them at a 2.5 - 3 score throughout the year could cause the problems you describe? When people have competition horses, they cannot afford for them to get fat in the summer and drop off so much in the winter else performance would suffer. That is why I aim to keep them at an ideal weight throughout.


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## khalswitz (26 December 2013)

Wagtail said:



			Interesting post. I expect your winter grazing is better than mine though as the three that are out 24/7 (with rugs) would be hat racks if I didn't feed them. There are three of them out on five acres and they get around 10 kilos of haylage and one feed a day each. I would say they were bang on a condition score of 3. I agree with you regarding that once a horse has been allowed to get fat, then it predisposes it to the risk of EMS. However, surely if you do not allow the horse to get more than a condition score of 3 (out of 5) during the summer, and maintain it as such throughout the winter, then those harmful internal fat deposits will not be laid down. Surely the problem is letting them get fat in the first place? I cannot see how keeping them at a 2.5 - 3 score throughout the year could cause the problems you describe? When people have competition horses, they cannot afford for them to get fat in the summer and drop off so much in the winter else performance would suffer. That is why I aim to keep them at an ideal weight throughout.
		
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This. None of my horses, natives included, have been overweight - if anything I struggle to keep weight on - even in summer. If they haven't been fat, then they aren't predisposed to lami et al, and surely then I am better maintaining weight rather than allowing them to gain so it can drop again?


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## Rapidash (26 December 2013)

khalswitz said:



			This. None of my horses, natives included, have been overweight - if anything I struggle to keep weight on - even in summer. If they haven't been fat, then they aren't predisposed to lami et al, and surely then I am better maintaining weight rather than allowing them to gain so it can drop again?
		
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I don't think anyone is advising "allowing" your horse to gain weight just so it can drop it again. The point is that for some horses, especially natives like mine, they will inevitably put it on through spring and summer and then lose it over winter. I've seen this happen to adult natives being ridden 4 hours a day, 3-5 days a week over summer living on a small pasture. Something in some horses' metabolisms says, put on weight for winter.

For other horses, probably the warmer blooded ones, then it's different. They don't put on weight as easily and thus don't need to lose it. They can stay a constant weight all year and be fine.

It's not a case of only one way works and I don't see why we constantly debate to find this one way. For some horses, x works, for others, y. If your horse is healthy surely you're doing the right thing, whatever that may be?


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## Tnavas (26 December 2013)

Lets go back a few decades when the majority of liesure horses were stabled - 
1 - They were kept at a consistant weight
2 - Exercised properly every day
3 - Fed the Basic feeds Hay, Oats/Barley/H&P cubes/Sugarbeet - chaff only available to those with a chaff cutter
4 - The people caring for them knew what they were doing and the people owning the horses allowed them free rein with feeding
5 - We did not strip graze or restrict grazing
6 - Those prone to laminitis were kept on very short grass and given exercise or were locked up
7 - We didn't see many horses with ulcers
8 - Did we see EPMS - NO!
9 - Did we see Laminitis - Rarely and it was generally the natives that had had too much spring grass.
10 - Were horses kept on dairy pasture - YES

I think the modern generation of horse owners need to start listening to the oldies and take note. 

My horse ownership now spans over 4 decades, I've owned many and been responsible for hundreds of horses/ponies owned by other people. I have NEVER had a case of EPMS, any laminitics that have come into my care have NEVER got laminitis again. My horses stay sound and of the school horses many worked well into their 20's early 30's.

The only processed feed that has passed any of their lips was one bag of Broodmare Balancer!

They have all been fed Oats, Barley, Sugarbeet, Meadow Chaff, Salt and supplied with a multi mineral block they got good quality meadow hay that was never soaked. 

The ponies I had were rarely fed and competed successfully off grass.

If I can keep hundreds of horses looking and working well on the basics - please tell me why you (sweeping arms across the board) cannot keep one horse well on the basics?


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## TarrSteps (26 December 2013)

Can I ask how long you have been keeping horses in NZ?

I had rarely seen a case of founder until I came to the UK, and the ones I have seen have had obvious causes, usually to do with reaction to medication, another illness, excessive grain consumption (I mean like "feed room break in" consumption) or gross mismanagement. I probably have a wider exposure than most to horses that live in every conceivable way, having been involved in many different disciplines and lived in various climates. It is just not something the average horse owner worries about on a daily basis.  

My conversations with people - vets, trainers, academics - from Australia and New Zealand (and many places in Continental Europe) suggest they have had similar experiences. There is something about keeping horses in the UK, at least now, that changes the equation.


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## Tnavas (26 December 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			Can I ask how long you have been keeping horses in NZ?

I had rarely seen a case of founder until I came to the UK, and the ones I have seen have had obvious causes, usually to do with reaction to medication, another illness, excessive grain consumption (I mean like "feed room break in" consumption) or gross mismanagement. I probably have a wider exposure than most to horses that live in every conceivable way, having been involved in many different disciplines and lived in various climates. It is just not something the average horse owner worries about on a daily basis.  

My conversations with people - vets, trainers, academics - from Australia and New Zealand (and many places in Continental Europe) suggest they have had similar experiences. There is something about keeping horses in the UK, at least now, that changes the equation.
		
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26 years in New Zealand and around the same in the UK.

What has changed in the UK is the abundance of commercially prepared foods. The grazing is still the same and before anyone jumps up and down a cries Dairy farms - the places I've kept horses here in NZ are or have been dairy farms.

Tarr Steps - one of the side effects of steroids which vets seem to throw around like darts these days is diabetes. 

Grain room break ins and the break out into the hay paddock are sadly accidents that do happen.

Horses that founder when injured are often a side effect of poor bandaging skills or not applying a support bandage to the other leg. 

These days I cringe when I see what vets class as bandaging. When my youngster was returned to me last July with a bad wire cut the vet had used a few wraps of vetwrap just below the hock - there was no padding under the wrap and as it had only been wrapped a couple of times around the bandage had slipped and one edge was digging into the wound. 

The vet wasn't allowed back! 

With 6 weeks box confinement and proper bandaging of both the injured leg and its partner my horses leg healed really well - but if that had been left to the vet and the young girl my horse had been leased to I don't expect that the horse would have recovered so well. 

Horse owners need to do their horses a favour and attend classes on feeding and general horse management. The UK has countless 'Equestrian Colleges' these days so there is no excuse. Look on the internet I recently did a five week equine nutrition course through 'Cosera' and Edinburgh University.


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## Auslander (26 December 2013)

Tnavas said:



			If I can keep hundreds of horses looking and working well on the basics - please tell me why you (sweeping arms across the board) cannot keep one horse well on the basics?
		
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Tnavas, I cant actually hold it in any longer. Rarely, even amongst horse people, have I come across someone so maddeningly superior. Every post you make seems to involve you discounting the experience and knowledge of others, and spouting forth about how little everyone else knows in comparison with you. 
I like to think that, despite 35 years in the industry, I still learn something every day - I'd hate to be in the position of thinking that I knew everything, and there was nothing more to be learned from discussing things with a rich variety of horse people, some experienced, some not so much.

I'd apologise for being rude, but I'm afraid I'm just not sorry.


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## cptrayes (26 December 2013)

Wagtail said:



			Interesting post. I expect your winter grazing is better than mine though as the three that are out 24/7 (with rugs) would be hat racks if I didn't feed them. There are three of them out on five acres and they get around 10 kilos of haylage and one feed a day each. I would say they were bang on a condition score of 3. I agree with you regarding that once a horse has been allowed to get fat, then it predisposes it to the risk of EMS. However, surely if you do not allow the horse to get more than a condition score of 3 (out of 5) during the summer, and maintain it as such throughout the winter, then those harmful internal fat deposits will not be laid down. Surely the problem is letting them get fat in the first place? I cannot see how keeping them at a 2.5 - 3 score throughout the year could cause the problems you describe? When people have competition horses, they cannot afford for them to get fat in the summer and drop off so much in the winter else performance would suffer. That is why I aim to keep them at an ideal weight throughout.
		
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But how m many of us own our horses from birth??. I have one now, and had another a few years ago, who were primed for metabolic problems before I ever owned them. 

If you do not know your horse's entire history, the only safe thing to do is to allow seasonal fluctuation of weight.


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## Goldenstar (26 December 2013)

Tnavas said:



			Lets go back a few decades when the majority of liesure horses were stabled - 
1 - They were kept at a consistant weight
2 - Exercised properly every day
3 - Fed the Basic feeds Hay, Oats/Barley/H&P cubes/Sugarbeet - chaff only available to those with a chaff cutter
4 - The people caring for them knew what they were doing and the people owning the horses allowed them free rein with feeding
5 - We did not strip graze or restrict grazing
6 - Those prone to laminitis were kept on very short grass and given exercise or were locked up
7 - We didn't see many horses with ulcers
8 - Did we see EPMS - NO!
9 - Did we see Laminitis - Rarely and it was generally the natives that had had too much spring grass.
10 - Were horses kept on dairy pasture - YES

I think the modern generation of horse owners need to start listening to the oldies and take note. 

My horse ownership now spans over 4 decades, I've owned many and been responsible for hundreds of horses/ponies owned by other people. I have NEVER had a case of EPMS, any laminitics that have come into my care have NEVER got laminitis again. My horses stay sound and of the school horses many worked well into their 20's early 30's.

The only processed feed that has passed any of their lips was one bag of Broodmare Balancer!

They have all been fed Oats, Barley, Sugarbeet, Meadow Chaff, Salt and supplied with a multi mineral block they got good quality meadow hay that was never soaked. 

The ponies I had were rarely fed and competed successfully off grass.

If I can keep hundreds of horses looking and working well on the basics - please tell me why you (sweeping arms across the board) cannot keep one horse well on the basics?
		
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Strange post , I don't know what you think goes on here but I and most of my very numerous horsey friends can keep our horses looking and doing very well .
I have four horses and they all look great ( except of the one with very little tail he would win no prizes ATM )


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## cptrayes (26 December 2013)

Tnavas said:



			Lets go back a few decades when the majority of liesure horses were stabled - 
1 - They were kept at a consistant weight
2 - Exercised properly every day
3 - Fed the Basic feeds Hay, Oats/Barley/H&P cubes/Sugarbeet - chaff only available to those with a chaff cutter
4 - The people caring for them knew what they were doing and the people owning the horses allowed them free rein with feeding
5 - We did not strip graze or restrict grazing
6 - Those prone to laminitis were kept on very short grass and given exercise or were locked up
7 - We didn't see many horses with ulcers
8 - Did we see EPMS - NO!
9 - Did we see Laminitis - Rarely and it was generally the natives that had had too much spring grass.
10 - Were horses kept on dairy pasture - YES
		
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I am sorry but I have to disagree with a lot of this.

True leisure only horses were only stabled in winter overnight, if at all.

Fully stabled horses were usually turned away in the close season of whatever sport they participated in. Show horses lost weight in winter. Fit hunters put it on in summer. Weight fluctuation was absolutely normal.

Grazing was routinely restricted for those horses which needed it, as your next point indicates. It was absolutely normal to turn out overnight and stable during the day if a horse got footie.


I believe ulcers were common, but we did not know about them and badly behaved horses were beaten into shape or shot.

Likewise, we did not recognise EPSM, which is now identified by muscle biopsy, or insulin resistance which is now being identified as a precursor to Cushings, which is also much, much more prevalent than we realised.

My recollection is that horses were not kept on dairy pasture unless they were sharing it with cows or rotating on after the cows had stripped it. I think it would also be interesting to compare old manure based versus new ways of grass fertilization with petrochemical derivatives.


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## Tnavas (26 December 2013)

Auslander said:



			Tnavas, I cant actually hold it in any longer. Rarely, even amongst horse people, have I come across someone so maddeningly superior. Every post you make seems to involve you discounting the experience and knowledge of others, and spouting forth about how little everyone else knows in comparison with you. 
I like to think that, despite 35 years in the industry, I still learn something every day - I'd hate to be in the position of thinking that I knew everything, and there was nothing more to be learned from discussing things with a rich variety of horse people, some experienced, some not so much.

I'd apologise for being rude, but I'm afraid I'm just not sorry.
		
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Auslander - When posting on forums it's really hard to put across emotions - so if you interpret my posts as maddeningly superior that's your problem not mine. I try to put across my experience and knowledge hoping that I will help others and that they will go away and learn more about feeding the basics.

It's not a matter of being superior or knowing more than others - it's based on decades of experience and the frustration of seeing people slowly kill their horses by the products sold to them by feed companies- this is my main beef - people trust them so much yet the research for your everyday horse is minimal. I read on hear constantly of people who's horses have frightened them by their poor behaviour - which will be mostly feed related. 

I do have extensive knowledge - I studied long and hard for the exams I hold - being some of the worlds highest level Horse Management exams - I was lucky to study with some of the UK's top people - FBHS's and BHS chief examiners among them.

I still study despite being 62 years old - I read and I learn everyday - I have lived through the times when horses were fed the basics I saw the mayhem that the first Meusli type feeds caused - even then they were promoted by the manufacturers to 'save time and storage space' - I have seen the problems people have first hand when they have been feeding premixed feeds. I educate my Pony Club kids on feeds - and am slowly changing people back to the basic feeds. They then see the change in their horses behaviour, recently I finally convinced a parent to actually stop feeding hard feed to their daughters pony and just let it work off grass - they are stunned at the change in its behaviour.

Recently a young instructor at Pony Club bemoaned the fact that we teach the children about the basic feeds - she can't see past the pretty label. Maybe she was worried about being given the subject to teach - possibly she too wasn't able to identify and discuss the various components of feed.


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## Tnavas (26 December 2013)

cptrayes said:



			I am sorry but I have to disagree with a lot of this.

True leisure only horses were only stabled in winter overnight, if at all. *The horses at the places I have worked were generally stabled 24/7 with a possible two weeks holiday in summer when the owner went away*

Fully stabled horses were usually turned away in the close season of whatever sport they participated in. Show horses lost weight in winter. Fit hunters put it on in summer. Weight fluctuation was absolutely normal. *Agree - Hunters were given several weeks being let down ready to go out and then around 8 weeks of time to bring them back into work, but many liesure horses were stabled year round 24/7*

Grazing was routinely restricted for those horses which needed it, as your next point indicates. It was absolutely normal to turn out overnight and stable during the day if a horse got footie. *Grazing was restricted by turning out on billiard table length grass - we didn't have electric fencing to use for strip grazing*

I believe ulcers were common, but we did not know about them and badly behaved horses were beaten into shape or shot. *I don't believe that was so - horses were given far more small feeds over the day so their stomach was rarely empty they also had adlib hay available*

Likewise, we did not recognise EPSM, which is now identified by muscle biopsy, or insulin resistance which is now being identified as a precursor to Cushings, which is also much, much more prevalent than we realised. *We didn't see it then because it rarely developed - I rememer only a couple of Cushings ponies - both had been lamanitic at some time in their lives.*

My recollection is that horses were not kept on dairy pasture unless they were sharing it with cows or rotating on after the cows had stripped it. I think it would also be interesting to compare old manure based versus new ways of grass fertilization with petrochemical derivatives.
		
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I recently read an article on fertilization methods - it seems that as the carbon dioxide levels in the atmosphere have increased the grasses ability to store nitrogen has reduced and that pasture these days has less feed value than pasture 20 - 30 years ago.

Generally here in NZ pasture is fertilized with commercially prepared mixes - the school paddocks were done twice a year and all the horses and ponies grazed on the paddocks 24/7. Only fed when worked and in winter given hay and again only hard fed if worked.


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## Auslander (26 December 2013)

Tnavas said:



			Auslander - When posting on forums it's really hard to put across emotions - so if you interpret my posts as maddeningly superior that's your problem not mine. I try to put across my experience and knowledge hoping that I will help others and that they will go away and learn more about feeding the basics.

It's not a matter of being superior or knowing more than others - it's based on decades of experience and the frustration of seeing people slowly kill their horses by the products sold to them by feed companies- this is my main beef - people trust them so much yet the research for your everyday horse is minimal. I read on hear constantly of people who's horses have frightened them by their poor behaviour - which will be mostly feed related. 

I do have extensive knowledge - I studied long and hard for the exams I hold - being some of the worlds highest level Horse Management exams - I was lucky to study with some of the UK's top people - FBHS's and BHS chief examiners among them.

I still study despite being 62 years old - I read and I learn everyday - I have lived through the times when horses were fed the basics I saw the mayhem that the first Meusli type feeds caused - even then they were promoted by the manufacturers to 'save time and storage space' - I have seen the problems people have first hand when they have been feeding premixed feeds. I educate my Pony Club kids on feeds - and am slowly changing people back to the basic feeds. They then see the change in their horses behaviour, recently I finally convinced a parent to actually stop feeding hard feed to their daughters pony and just let it work off grass - they are stunned at the change in its behaviour.

Recently a young instructor at Pony Club bemoaned the fact that we teach the children about the basic feeds - she can't see past the pretty label. Maybe she was worried about being given the subject to teach - possibly she too wasn't able to identify and discuss the various components of feed.
		
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Really - read back what you just wrote!! Condescending much...

Getting people's backs up by patronising them isn't the way to go about sharing your knowledge though. It doesn't matter how much you know - if you cannot communicate it in a way that readers can stomach, then it's a waste of all those decades of experience.
Rather than saying that my feeling about the tone you adopt on here is "my problem"- surely that means that you should think more carefully about how you come across if you want people to listen to you. You never see anyone getting cross about how, for example, Tarrsteps offers advice - interesting eh?

There are a lot of people on here who have a huge amount of knowledge - maybe try clambering out from behind the pulpit, and joining in with discussions.


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## cptrayes (26 December 2013)

Tnavas, my experiences are of similar length to yours, a bit shorter,  but differ markedly. We will simply have to accept that we have seen different things.


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## slumdog (26 December 2013)

Goldenstar said:



			Oh its a supplement here white wine is a staple .
		
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Also technically a fruit, which means 5 portions (glass size) a day are needed


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## MotherOfChickens (26 December 2013)

horses are being kept into much older ages, horses are being stabled more, rugged more, fed more, the types of horses we are keeping are different (sport horses/ponies were anglos, there was the odd cob for hunting, Natives of course but no WBs to speak of other than ID x TBs and gypsy cobs were not kept by anyone other than travellers). 

Horses were worked harder and let down properly and then fittened up properly, ponies were mostly kept out and not rugged, everything had their shoes off when not needed. Any type of horse would have periods whereby they would be judged as 'poor' by our present standards but probably were not. I would say that the average horse owner may be less knowledgable but my family wasn't exactly horsey when we started out and low end DIY livery yards existed in the 70s too. I do think that on the whole, there are more yards with less knowledgable yard owners about and most owners work and have less time to exercise horses as much as they could do with.

I don't know about dairy grazing as I grew up in East Anglia with nairy a dairy cow-or any sort of cow, in sight. Mine were kept either at grass livery or on a small holding.We kept 2 natives on 3 acres of well draining paddocks, split into two and rotated monthly in the winter, fortnightly in the summer (bowling greens year round!), out 24/7 with no rugs. They were worked pretty hard in the summer-only at weekends in the winter (most people did not have access to a school). My 14.2 TB x NF was the only pony I had clipped, rugged and stabled as we were hunting and by that point, I could do the work my self and walk to the livery yard after school.

I am sure, looking back, that the last pony had ulcers-we just didn't know about them in the early 80s, of course there was kissing spines and all of those 'new' conditions too. I didn't see a case of laminitis (or sweet itch for that matter) until I was in my 20s (the 90s) but either could just be where I grew up as opposed to anything else.


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## TarrSteps (26 December 2013)

Tnavas said:



			26 years in New Zealand and around the same in the UK.

What has changed in the UK is the abundance of commercially prepared foods. The grazing is still the same and before anyone jumps up and down a cries Dairy farms - the places I've kept horses here in NZ are or have been dairy farms.

Tarr Steps - one of the side effects of steroids which vets seem to throw around like darts these days is diabetes. 

Grain room break ins and the break out into the hay paddock are sadly accidents that do happen.

Horses that founder when injured are often a side effect of poor bandaging skills or not applying a support bandage to the other leg. 

These days I cringe when I see what vets class as bandaging. When my youngster was returned to me last July with a bad wire cut the vet had used a few wraps of vetwrap just below the hock - there was no padding under the wrap and as it had only been wrapped a couple of times around the bandage had slipped and one edge was digging into the wound. 

The vet wasn't allowed back! 

With 6 weeks box confinement and proper bandaging of both the injured leg and its partner my horses leg healed really well - but if that had been left to the vet and the young girl my horse had been leased to I don't expect that the horse would have recovered so well. 

Horse owners need to do their horses a favour and attend classes on feeding and general horse management. The UK has countless 'Equestrian Colleges' these days so there is no excuse. Look on the internet I recently did a five week equine nutrition course through 'Cosera' and Edinburgh University.
		
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Sorry, I don't really understand. I presume you are answering my question re why the situation vis a vis laminitis seems to be different in other countries but none of the points you mention seem germane. . . 

Commercially prepared feeds are available the world over now. I might know a few more people in Canada who feed straights and it does seem that, in general, more prepared feeds are relatively simple there, but I'd hazard a guess that commercially prepared feeds are now more common than not.

While it is true that more horses get steroid joint injections in the UK because some of the options aren't available here - I couldn't understand this until someone on here explained it to me - there is no shortage of the practice in North America. And I would suspect, at least from experience, that oral steroid such as prednisone and dexamethasone are actually more commonly prescribed. While I have seen founder as a result of using these medications, again, at nothing like the rates people seem to consider "expected" here.

The bandaging thing . . . I think we will have to agree to disagree. I've never had or seen a horse founder on box rest, bandaged or not, so can't comment to that, although I am sure confinement and related factors can be an issue, particularly for already sensitive horses. Recent studies on bandaging seem to indicate that there is actually very little "support" we can offer, relative to the strength of a horse's mechanisms so the practice of always wrapping legs in pairs is a bit suspect. I do it because it's what I've been taught but I'm not convinced I'm doing much more than making myself feel better. There might be something to be said for circulatory support but even that doesn't seem born out by study. 

By "illness or injury" I mean that a horse has sustained sufficient trauma and/or is being treated in a risky way because of necessity. In other words, the risk of founder is high because of the situation. If a horse needs steroids to live then you give them, knowing the risk and hoping you'll pull it off. Or the situation is such that founder is a potential complication of the original problem. For example, I cared for an older horse who, for reasons we never really got to the bottom of, had a serious cardiac episode. A few days later he foundered, which makes perfect sense in as it is, in effect, a circulatory disease. I've seen in in poisoning cases and in horse seriously ill with infections. I don't see what this has to do with bandaging . . .

My point re feed room break ins or other "accidents" - i did see a horse founder once after running itself to a standstill on Tarmac, although, to be fair, there was a lot of variables in that experience - is that it is only in these extreme situations where horses can be "expected" to founder. It is a very unusual thing to happen to the average horse living and average, crisis free existence. Why is that?

While there are many similarities in how horses are kept in the UK vs other parts of the world, nowhere else seems to have the incidence of, and paranoia about laminitis. I don't think you can put it down to owner education, either, as that seems to be a similar variable the world over.

I've looked after probably thousands of horses, too, and generally I skew towards obsessive and paranoid. I've been very lucky, over all. Careful yes, but also lucky. I'm curious why is seems easier to be lucky in this particular area in other parts of the world, vs the UK.


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## Regandal (26 December 2013)

Just a thought - very few of us are lucky enough to own our horses since birth.  Therefore, we have no knowledge of any previous weight gain and subsequent loss, possibly back to normal.  If the internal adipose tissue is still there (hidden) and producing leptin, can you blood test for it?  Or are there any other markers you can test for?


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## siennamum (26 December 2013)

I've always welcomed Winter as I've never had a horse which wasn't a fatty. In the Summer they have to have grazing restricted, in the Winter I can just let them get on with it and let them lose weight. They are kept pretty much the same way as horses were back in the 70's, and that includes Hunters, Point to Pointers, eventers, riding school ponies and our PC/Sport ponies/horses.
differences are that we now understand the importance of all sorts of stuff which dramatically improves the health/comfort of the horse such as good dentistry, good shoeing/hoof balance etc. Certainly all these metabolic issues were around back then, they were just undiagnosed or misunderstood. we had a mare with EPSM in the mid 70's but it was described as azoturia, and treated with an alkaline syrup.


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## Wagtail (27 December 2013)

cptrayes said:



			But how m many of us own our horses from birth??. I have one now, and had another a few years ago, who were primed for metabolic problems before I ever owned them. 

If you do not know your horse's entire history, the only safe thing to do is to allow seasonal fluctuation of weight.
		
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That is very true. When I got my mare she was really fat with some obvious red rings around her white hooves. I didn't take enough notice of them at the time...

Many people will know the terrible fight I had and lost against EMS and Cushings induce laminitis 14 years later.


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## pennyturner (27 December 2013)

khalswitz said:



			And whoever said they naturally lose weight more in winter due to forging for food has obviously never met my lot - in winter they stand huddled round the hay bale for 98% of the time!!!
		
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This is exactly what I avoid by allowing them to forage on the natural foggage (standing weeds and grass) in winter.  They are moving around most of the time, covering the whole field, finding this and that.  They're never stood under a hedge with their tail between their legs looking bored.

I only provide hay if there's snow, or I've really run out of natural forage - and even then I make sure there's no routine, and it's set out in many piles, and various places.  I don't want them hanging around the gate expecting it if I can avoid it.

Horses get bored and cold 'standing around it 98% of the time'.


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## Mince Pie (27 December 2013)

I think it really depends on the horse in question, for example my lad with all the restricted grazing/muzzling etc over the summer will still put weight on despite my best intentions. He's not grossly obese by the end of summer but could usually do with losing a few kgs, which he does over winter. However this is something I do very deliberately and very carefully.






At the time of this photo he was hunting fit and did a days hunting over very hilly country a week later with absolutely no problems at all.







This was taken in a different year, but in April.

He has ad lib hay which is soaked for his COPD however I use less rugs so he uses his excess fat to keep himself warm and he gets a token hard feed for his supps.


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## khalswitz (27 December 2013)

pennyturner said:



			This is exactly what I avoid by allowing them to forage on the natural foggage (standing weeds and grass) in winter.  They are moving around most of the time, covering the whole field, finding this and that.  They're never stood under a hedge with their tail between their legs looking bored.

I only provide hay if there's snow, or I've really run out of natural forage - and even then I make sure there's no routine, and it's set out in many piles, and various places.  I don't want them hanging around the gate expecting it if I can avoid it.

Horses get bored and cold 'standing around it 98% of the time'.
		
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Unfortunately, when you have NO grass at this time of year, horses live out24/7 with 5 to a field, all work reasonably hard, and are all poor doers so need adlib, a hay bale in the field every five days or so is the easiest way to do it. 

Even when I had natives, I used this method, and managed to keep then looking trim year round - but they did work reasonably hard.


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## autumn7 (27 December 2013)

Quote Originally Posted by Spotsrock  
"If u let weight fluctuate constantly do u have seasonal saddle changes to ensure good fit despite the different shape ur horse will be from one season to another?"

I have two saddles for mine - a summer one broader one and a winter narrower one for my old fashioned hunter type who changes shape dramatically with the seasons.


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## pennyturner (27 December 2013)

"We didn't see it then because it rarely developed - I rememer only a couple of Cushings ponies - both had been lamanitic at some time in their lives." Tnavas.

In the past horses were frequently worked to death by 12 (Omnibus horses in London typically lasted 3 or 4 years before they broke down).  Not surprising we didn't see much Cushings!

Even more recently, experienced owners would rarely try to keep an aged pony alive after it started going downhill.  They didn't have the treatments, and wouldn't have bothered if they have.


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## Pearlsasinger (27 December 2013)

khalswitz said:



			Unfortunately, when you have NO grass at this time of year, horses live out24/7 with 5 to a field, all work reasonably hard, and are all poor doers so need adlib, a hay bale in the field every five days or so is the easiest way to do it.
		
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If yours are all poor doers, I doubt that OP was really suggesting that you should let them drop any weight in winter.  Those of us who do manage our horses in that way, have to decide whether to take the easy way for the owner or the best way for the horse.


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## TarrSteps (27 December 2013)

I don't understand how this gets to be a moral argument about what people 'should' be doing. Surely the focus has to be on the result, not just the process? It's almost impossible to gauge what people mean by 'poor doer' (which now seems to come with a judgement attached, rather than just describing a naturally light horse) or 'medium work' so everyone has to assess their situation accordingly.

A natural seasonal fluctuation in weight of 5% ish seems to be 'normal' and, as we understand more, even desirable. Work, weather, feed value, health etc will affect the situation. It doesn't really sound that complicated!


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## khalswitz (27 December 2013)

Pearlsacarolsinger said:



			If yours are all poor doers, I doubt that OP was really suggesting that you should let them drop any weight in winter.  Those of us who do manage our horses in that way, have to decide whether to take the easy way for the owner or the best way for the horse.
		
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Like I said, my current one and the others in his field (we keep poor doers together for ease of management) are all poor doers - and by poor doers I mean have a tendency to drop weight and struggle to maintain or put on weight in winter. However I have owned native type good doers previously, and whilst they got appropriate amounts of feed, I never had problems with them being fat in summer, and they didn't need to drop weight in winter, especially as they were in reasonable work.


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## Murphy88 (27 December 2013)

khalswitz said:



			by poor doers I mean have a tendency to drop weight and struggle to maintain or put on weight in winter.
		
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To give a different angle, perhaps what you consider 'poor doers' , are actually horses doing what is natural - losing weight in winter. Allowing a horse to lose some weight isn't bad management, in fact I would say that feeding to prevent this loss is worse management in terms of maintaining the overall health of the horse. 

Now obviously I'm not suggesting allowing horses to become 'poor' - although I probably have a different idea to many of what constitutes poor, as both a vet and a horse owner. I like to feel ribs very easily, and when my horse is fit I have no problem with seeing his ribs - unfortunately he lives off fresh air, I would much rather have to supplement hay this winter as opposed to facing going into next spring with him overweight. Unfortunately as horse owners we have lost sight of what is actually a desirable weight, as the vast majority of horses are at least a little overweight. Seeing a horse at a good weight is the exception rather than the rule in my job.

Really, those horses that naturally lose weight in winter should be easier to manage - feed to allow a small (5%) weight loss by the end of winter, and then allow spring and summer grazing/warmth to do the work of putting the weight back on.


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## Lamb-Ski (27 December 2013)

Murphy88 said:



			"To give a different angle, perhaps what you consider 'poor doers' , are actually horses doing what is natural - losing weight in winter. Allowing a horse to lose some weight isn't bad management, in fact I would say that feeding to prevent this loss is worse management in terms of maintaining the overall health of the horse". In the main I agree with this however it is my opinion that, come winter, many horses in this country have an enforced, drastic change in lifestyle ie: they are taken off the grass and stabled for all or much of the time (this can result in various stress inducing factors), they are often clipped (partly or fully) then rugged (a horse is more adapt at warming itself up than cooling itself down and this takes allot of energy out of the horse) the horse is then often fed more concentrate feeds than fibre and many mixed feeds on the market today are made up of stuff that horses are simply not designed to eat (this results in the horse expanding much more energy digesting food than utilizing it for warmth and nutrition) So, taking all that into consideration, for some people, with some horses they will be chucking bucket's of feed at the horse with little or no effect.  I believe that if you know you have a poor doer then the horse needs to be prepared, way in advance, in fact soon after the summer solstice, as this is when the horse starts to prepare it's own body to winter.  We may well have domesticated the horse but the fact remains that as care providers it should be our responsibility to provide what they do need rather than expecting them to conform to what we want.
		
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## beccylovespurple (27 December 2013)

I read in Horse and Rider last month that they should drop off at the end of the winter as it helps with insulin resistance. I'd love mine to drop a bit of weight but they maintain weight well even on just forage.


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## Tnavas (27 December 2013)

pennyturner said:



			"We didn't see it then because it rarely developed - I rememer only a couple of Cushings ponies - both had been lamanitic at some time in their lives." Tnavas.

In the past horses were frequently worked to death by 12 (Omnibus horses in London typically lasted 3 or 4 years before they broke down).  Not surprising we didn't see much Cushings!

Even more recently, experienced owners would rarely try to keep an aged pony alive after it started going downhill.  They didn't have the treatments, and wouldn't have bothered if they have.
		
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pennyturner - what rubbish - maybe 100 years ago that might have been the case and even then not many ended up that way.

I have friends who had their childhood ponies out in the paddock in retirement in their mid 20's.

Many of our excellent school ponies and horses both in the UK and NZ were well into their 20's and still in work with no problems.

We didn't see the problems because they rarely if ever developed - the people that owned horses and ponies either knew what they were doing or had them looked after by people who did.

Motherofchickens - we had warmbloods 50 years ago in the UK - we called them hunters! They were no different then than the current warmbloods crosses between Cold blood horses and hotbloods. EG Clydesdale x TB or Arab. The current Warmblood is more TB than it used to be.

I agree that more horses are over rugged and overfed than they used to be but I believe far more were stabled 24/7 than now.


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## YasandCrystal (27 December 2013)

My cob and native drop weight in winter, but then they carry a tad too much weight in the summer. They are never badly overweight, but I don't believe in muzzling or starvation paddocks for bigger horses who need to move about. There are some horses that like some humans are genuinely too good doers and short of actually starving them they will be on the larger side.  My cob mare is always kept very fit in summer and my grazing is not rich, but she still always looks very well.  I do think it is natural and I also believe that when you feed adlib forage you need to take care that your horse still moves about as they would naturally. I love the paddocks paradise concept and have implemented that myself previously.


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## siennamum (27 December 2013)

Tnavas said:



			pennyturner - what rubbish - maybe 100 years ago that might have been the case and even then not many ended up that way.

I have friends who had their childhood ponies out in the paddock in retirement in their mid 20's.

Many of our excellent school ponies and horses both in the UK and NZ were well into their 20's and still in work with no problems.

We didn't see the problems because they rarely if ever developed - the people that owned horses and ponies either knew what they were doing or had them looked after by people who did.

Motherofchickens - we had warmbloods 50 years ago in the UK - we called them hunters! They were no different then than the current warmbloods crosses between Cold blood horses and hotbloods. EG Clydesdale x TB or Arab. The current Warmblood is more TB than it used to be.

I agree that more horses are over rugged and overfed than they used to be but I believe far more were stabled 24/7 than now.
		
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There were plenty of older ponies and horses in the dim and distant past. My first pony lived to about 35 with never a sick or sorry day. But ponies/horses who were ill were PTS as often as not. I think that  is a crucial difference. These days older animals are kept going with all manner of metabolic problems. My mum would pts if they had a degenerative disease, she wouldn't even get the vet, just the huntsman. It was a bit ruthless but the attitude was that it was kinder than allowing them to suffer.


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## pennyturner (27 December 2013)

siennamum said:



			There were plenty of older ponies and horses in the dim and distant past. My first pony lived to about 35 with never a sick or sorry day. But ponies/horses who were ill were PTS as often as not. I think that  is a crucial difference. These days older animals are kept going with all manner of metabolic problems. My mum would pts if they had a degenerative disease, she wouldn't even get the vet, just the huntsman. It was a bit ruthless but the attitude was that it was kinder than allowing them to suffer.
		
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Exactly.  I'm not saying no horse lived to old age; just that the ones that did were a self-selected particularly healthy bunch.  Anything which wasn't didn't get the medicines to maintain it as a 'cushings' horse.  They simply didn't exist.


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## TarrSteps (27 December 2013)

pennyturner said:



			Exactly.  I'm not saying no horse lived to old age; just that the ones that did were a self-selected particularly healthy bunch.  Anything which wasn't didn't get the medicines to maintain it as a 'cushings' horse.  They simply didn't exist.
		
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I would agree. I knew lots of healthy, useful older horses when I was young and I know many now. But I also know many horses that are alive now having sustained illness and injuries that would have meant the end, or at least permanent retirement, when I was a kid. The tough survived and thrived. 

It's a bit like cancer rates in people - they have continued to rise in part because more people live long enough, well enough to develop it!


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## Tnavas (27 December 2013)

siennamum said:



			There were plenty of older ponies and horses in the dim and distant past. My first pony lived to about 35 with never a sick or sorry day. But ponies/horses who were ill were PTS as often as not. I think that  is a crucial difference. These days older animals are kept going with all manner of metabolic problems. My mum would pts if they had a degenerative disease, she wouldn't even get the vet, just the huntsman. It was a bit ruthless but the attitude was that it was kinder than allowing them to suffer.
		
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I think too that there are many people who go to extremes to keep their sick horse alive regardless of the consequences. 

Medicine may have improved but is it right to keep any animal alive at the expense of its quality of life? You see on here many times the owner that says - that horse x gets pills everyday for some particular problem - it can't work though because its still not quite sound - what is a horse that is unsound? It's a horse feeling pain - is it right to keep this horse alive?

I feel many are far too selfish to do the right thing because THEY will feel hurt at the horses passing. When my lovely Tnavas was PTS I cried while it was being done as I was losing my dear friend of 14 years - if he had been prepared to be sedate and mooch around the paddock until nature took him I would have kept him forever but he didn't - he'd have a TB hoon at any excuse and to see him crippled the next day was heartbreaking - his navicular didn't respond enough to medication - the kindest thing was to let him go.

There are many people who in their misguided attempt to do the right thing by their horse are infact leaving them open to a future of discomfort. Overweight horses, overfed on processed feeds and over rugged - sunlight on the horses coat is crucial for the production of Vitamin D - one of the reasons that stabled horses were prone to degenerative problems such as Navicular and pedalostitis - they didn't get enough daylight on their skins. 

If you are able to reset your horses metabolism by allowing him to naturally lose weight in the winter then you are helping to prolong his well life. 

There are always the exceptions such as the horse that has trouble maintaining weight - there you need to thoroughly look into WHY the horse doesn't thrive - the above horse came to me as a 4yr old - I'd known him while he was in training - he had problems - he looked terrible despite an artic truck of food every week - his problem was low grade pain from a neck misalignment - he couldn't graze in comfort as putting his head down hurt . Showed no other signs - I just thought I had a bad doer - The chiro was treating his tripping/stumbling problem and eventually after the horse fell over on me - nerves to both front legs trapped at the same time - the chiro and vet got together and knocked him out - chiro got to work and the horse never looked back - lived on the smell of an oily rag after that.


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## lastchancer (27 December 2013)

^^^ What she says


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## khalswitz (27 December 2013)

Murphy88 said:



			To give a different angle, perhaps what you consider 'poor doers' , are actually horses doing what is natural - losing weight in winter. Allowing a horse to lose some weight isn't bad management, in fact I would say that feeding to prevent this loss is worse management in terms of maintaining the overall health of the horse. 

Now obviously I'm not suggesting allowing horses to become 'poor' - although I probably have a different idea to many of what constitutes poor, as both a vet and a horse owner. I like to feel ribs very easily, and when my horse is fit I have no problem with seeing his ribs - unfortunately he lives off fresh air, I would much rather have to supplement hay this winter as opposed to facing going into next spring with him overweight. Unfortunately as horse owners we have lost sight of what is actually a desirable weight, as the vast majority of horses are at least a little overweight. Seeing a horse at a good weight is the exception rather than the rule in my job.

Really, those horses that naturally lose weight in winter should be easier to manage - feed to allow a small (5%) weight loss by the end of winter, and then allow spring and summer grazing/warmth to do the work of putting the weight back on.
		
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By poor, I mean he dropped to 1.7/1.8 condition score last winter with BUCKETS of feed and ad lib haylage. By tends to drop weight, I mean go poor - on vets advice I stopped riding him at the end of last winter because we were struggling so much with weight. He was gaunt in the flanks, visibly ribby with a protruding tail head and visible spinous processes over the withers - all because I didn't know him well enough, and didn't start feeding him up quickly enough - after that, I couldn't get weight on no matter how hard I tried. And I worked at a rescue at the time, having left vet school the year before so I knew what thin is - he wasn't a welfare case by any means but he was definitely poor.

After a season of feeding three large feeds a day, ad lib haylage, rugging to the nines an eventually not working him, we had him diagnosed with PSSM and ulcers (ex racer), so we had an explanation for the poor doing. I've been able to get weight back on, and have been proactively feeding up for the winter - now, he looks good, I'd say a 2.8, but am I hell letting him drop weight after the fiasco last year. Ad lib haylage, alfa a oil, ERS pellets, stud balancer and fast fibre intwo decent bucket feeds a day - and were maintaining, thank god.


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## Tnavas (27 December 2013)

khalswitz said:



			By poor, I mean he dropped to 1.7/1.8 condition score last winter with BUCKETS of feed and ad lib haylage. By tends to drop weight, I mean go poor - on vets advice I stopped riding him at the end of last winter because we were struggling so much with weight. He was gaunt in the flanks, visibly ribby with a protruding tail head and visible spinous processes over the withers - all because I didn't know him well enough, and didn't start feeding him up quickly enough - after that, I couldn't get weight on no matter how hard I tried. And I worked at a rescue at the time, having left vet school the year before so I knew what thin is - he wasn't a welfare case by any means but he was definitely poor.

After a season of feeding three large feeds a day, ad lib haylage, rugging to the nines an eventually not working him, we had him diagnosed with PSSM and ulcers (ex racer), so we had an explanation for the poor doing. I've been able to get weight back on, and have been proactively feeding up for the winter - now, he looks good, I'd say a 2.8, but am I hell letting him drop weight after the fiasco last year. Ad lib haylage, alfa a oil, ERS pellets, stud balancer and fast fibre intwo decent bucket feeds a day - and were maintaining, thank god.
		
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It would be a great idea to have this horse checked thoroughly for any skeletal misalignment - low grade pain is great at sucking off weight.


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## khalswitz (27 December 2013)

Tnavas said:



			It would be a great idea to have this horse checked thoroughly for any skeletal misalignment - low grade pain is great at sucking off weight.
		
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Like I said, he had low grade ulcers, which we've treated, and changing the diet for PSSM made a huge difference to the weight, and he has ongoing chiro as he was out in his pelvis, we reckon due to a race he was marked as falling in... had him a year and he's only just coming right now!! Had so many problems, once we sorted the weight he became awful with bucking and being super sharp, have only now got there with his EPSM, ulcers, physio and chiro to the point where he is willing and able! He is literally the most difficult horse I have ever owned, and I've had difficult horses... he is also naturally dominant, so there's no telling him, ever. I've had to become very canny, and stay ten steps ahead at all times... 

But he is now out doing intro/prelim dressage (not very well) and is jumping courses of 80cm very stylishly at home, with out first SJ planned for the new year... so we are getting there eventually. After my Highlands/Welsh X/Lipizzaner X/TB X and WB plus all my work backing and producing, then at the rescue rehabilitating, I thought I had a fairly broad spec experience, but he has stumped me at every turn. Hence my reasonably common lamenting updates on this forum on a regular basis!


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## Tnavas (27 December 2013)

khalswitz said:



			Like I said, he had low grade ulcers, which we've treated, and changing the diet for PSSM made a huge difference to the weight, and he has ongoing chiro as he was out in his pelvis, we reckon due to a race he was marked as falling in... had him a year and he's only just coming right now!! Had so many problems, once we sorted the weight he became awful with bucking and being super sharp, have only now got there with his EPSM, ulcers, physio and chiro to the point where he is willing and able! He is literally the most difficult horse I have ever owned, and I've had difficult horses... he is also naturally dominant, so there's no telling him, ever. I've had to become very canny, and stay ten steps ahead at all times... 

But he is now out doing intro/prelim dressage (not very well) and is jumping courses of 80cm very stylishly at home, with out first SJ planned for the new year... so we are getting there eventually. After my Highlands/Welsh X/Lipizzaner X/TB X and WB plus all my work backing and producing, then at the rescue rehabilitating, I thought I had a fairly broad spec experience, but he has stumped me at every turn. Hence my reasonably common lamenting updates on this forum on a regular basis!
		
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Sounds like he is a lot of fun to have around - I loved my TB - when Warmbloods became the in thing to own in NZ I bought one but only rode her for a short while - she was so boring to ride - I went back to my dear Tnavas horse - he was fun to ride, quick, cheeky and so intelligent.


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## khalswitz (27 December 2013)

He's cheeky and SOOO intelligent, that's for sure!! Despite him being a menace I wouldn;t switch him now... although it took a lot of forum support (paretic from Lolo) to keep me going!

Out of interest, some photos of him last year. I don't have any from February/March, when he was at his worst, as to be honest I felt awful looking at him let alone photographing him, but I really wish I had now just for reference - he got diagnosed in March, and the first photos of him I have were of a XC in late April once he had put on enough condition to be acceptable in public/back in work! However it gives you an idea... back then I thought he was looking so good to what he had been!!!

When I got him in October, just after a summer on the grass, he looked pretty good - not great top line/not toned, but condition was fine.






Him in April at the XC, about 6-8 weeks after ulcer treatment/EPSM diet change, looking SO MUCH BETTER, we saw a difference within a few weeks (excuse my godawful position, he used to be a nightmare for slamming to a halt... this was a stop-and-leaper):http://www.stephenhammondphotography.co.uk/?Action=VF&id=1222786019&ppp=0&ppwd=98107csp


Him early May at RC Camp, again looking much better, although I got a few snooty comments from people about his ribbiness, hippiness and hollow flanks...:
http://www.stephenhammondphotography.co.uk/?Action=VF&id=1224744419&ppwd=98107csp

Him in June, condition looking better, still no top line but weight looking much better.






Him last weekend of July, at his first (and last) hunter show (he was a bit... explosive when everyone else started cantering):






Him jumping with my friend in August:






Him in October/November (not sure which) away to go hacking out:






And him last week, with me and his field mate :
	
	
		
		
	


	





So yeah, he literally looks like a different horse. I had a lesson just before I stopped working him in February at a clinic where they commented on his weight, then had another clinic with them in September and they thought I had a new horse. However it means I am loathe to let him drop any weight at all this year...


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## windand rain (27 December 2013)

I dont think anyone for a minute is expecting those who struggle to keep weight on their horses or those with underlying disease should randomly let their horses lose weight What is being advocated is letting the extra tubbiness of summer disappear before it all starts again in Spring So instead of letting particularly ponies  get fatter and fatter year on year because they start the summer fat let them drop off towards the start of the new grass season therefore making it less necessary to muzzle and restrict them and help them live a nearer normal life I can see no harm in letting them drop to a 2.5 by april so they can graze normally through pring and gain to about a 3.25 moving to 3.5 during the autumn before letting them drop off again in late winter


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## pennyturner (27 December 2013)

The point about understanding why the horse is losing weight is well made.  My welsh D came to me last year as a bit of a bag of bones, which is odd for a welshy.  He improved for worming and decent forage, but not as much as I expected.

He's a complete wuss, and literally fretted the weight off worrying about getting bullied by my gang of mild-mannered softies.  He wouldn't even walk alongside another horse under saddle.  

A year on and he's holding weight as I would expect, as he's finally realised they're not going to kick his head in!

Some fidget or fret, some feel the cold worse than others - but lack of thrift can be caused by discomfort.


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## Tnavas (27 December 2013)

kahlswitz - a great difference - he's definitely come a long way - mine was very similar in that he was ribby, hollow flanks no top line and my boss would really upset me by saying the horse looked sick. Poor boy was in so much pain.

This is him just before the chiro manipulate him under anaesthetic and the second picture taken just a few weeks later with one of my students


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## khalswitz (27 December 2013)

Tnavas said:



			kahlswitz - a great difference - he's definitely come a long way - mine was very similar in that he was ribby, hollow flanks no top line and my boss would really upset me by saying the horse looked sick. Poor boy was in so much pain.

This is him just before the chiro manipulate him under anaesthetic and the second picture taken just a few weeks later with one of my students












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Wow, what a difference!!! Looks absolutely cracking in that second photo!

Yeah, I reckon he must have been very uncomfortable, what with the ulcers and the muscle problems from the EPSM, and then when he did gain weight, he was sore in his pelvis so was so unruly to ride. He is still hot and very opinionated, but isn't nasty the way he was before - I can predict when he will throw a strop now, and he doesn't keep at it til he decks me anymore.

Funny, looking at those photos and comparing them, I think you see a difference in the eye, too, looks much softer. Funny how I never noticed that before.


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