# Another Question about the RAW diet



## DaisyDuke (17 October 2010)

Right so I don't feed the raw diet to my dogs at the moment but my Mother in law does. (a very new thing)
Now from reading some of your posts on here I'm not sure if she is doing the right thing?
All she feeds hers is mince, raw egg and natural yoghurt, no bones or anything, is this right?
When I asked her she seemed to think it was fine?
Wonder if anyone can answer this so that I can give her some gentle guidance!!!
Thanks.


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## soloabe (17 October 2010)

IMHO she needs bone in there. I don't know anyone who has successfully fed a no bone diet.


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## gina2201 (17 October 2010)

I'd be interested in hearing what is a typical daily feeding regime on the BARF diet as my puppy to be will be/is on this soany hints and tips would be greatly received.


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## KarynK (17 October 2010)

Here you go I have this on file!

My two adult cattle dogs weigh around 20-22 kg and this is roughly their diet:

Basically if you feed a variety and aim to balance over a week or two and not every meal.  I feed mine once a day as adults.

Day 1 - Chicken carcasses or wings (5 supermarket wings or 1 carcass for a 22kg mutt probably less butchers wings as they are bigger)
Day 2 &#8211; Breast of lamb (in half one gets the soft meaty end and the other the bony end and if I remember who&#8217;s had what I rotate that on the next lamb meal)
Day 3 &#8211; Offal - Liver/Hearts or Tripe with a couple of teaspoons of blended veg and a raw egg. Will put a handful of pumpkin seeds in the blender now and again as they help detach worms from the digestive tract, (may possibly helps sis has had 0 worm counts for years) Mine hate kidneys and I have to lightly braise liver before they will eat it!
Day 4 &#8211; Chicken (Carcases or wings for mine as they maintain weight, if you have a skinny go for legs or thighs with more muscle meat)
Day 5 &#8211; Fishies ( Pilchards in tomato sauce with some raw fish mixed in &#8211; like whitebait whatever&#8217;s reduced or on offer.) with an egg and some cold pressed animal oil
Day 6 &#8211; Breast of lamb
Day 7 &#8211; Piggie tootie or pork chops (careful Pigs trotters can make them fart so can be a bit dodgy for those prone to problems and the bones can be quite hard)
Day 8 &#8211; Chicken
Day 9 - minced meat or something like stewing steak in chunks &#8211; whatever is on offer with a bit of veg eggs and oil if it&#8217;s mince or chunks. If its whole steak pieces they just get that  to chew on (this helps clean teeth and massages gums)
Day 10 &#8211; Exotics &#8211; Rabbit, game or sometimes real treat Oxtail or a turkey leg (cheap in ASDA)
Day 11 &#8211; Chicken
Day 12 &#8211; Lamb bones with a bit of meat on them
Day 13 &#8211; Offal & veg
Day 14 &#8211; Chicken

Some supplement with Kelp, but I keep forgetting to buy it! Apparently alfalfa sprouts are good too, they will eat the horse&#8217;s alfalfa but if I put it in their feed they turn their noses up! I use any veg that&#8217;s cheap or that is still in the fridge from the last shop, but they love carrots and I like to use spinach as it&#8217;s high in iron. It&#8217;s blended to break down the cellulose in the plant cell walls so the dogs can get something out of it I add raw eggs and cold pressed fish oil..

Though this is typically my diet over 2 weeks I tend to put my food in the freezer in mixed levels then they get what comes out in no particular order, but for puppies you might want to mix it up a bit more frequently.

Unless you have a chicken factory nearby, the butcher is best bet as you will save a lot of money that way with, it&#8217;s all of human grade quality and they have to pay to get rid of it all!!!   Also you will find me hanging around the reduced counter at supermarkets!  With the price of chickens there you should be able to get a few, I often take the crown off for me and give the dogs the arms legs and back.  The super market birds have softer bones as they are younger so would be good for puppies and for starting off older dogs.


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## Shutterbug (19 October 2010)

Wonderfully helpful thread   Korben is going raw diet over the next few weeks - hes already half raw - half Royal Canin but I want him on full raw diet.  The info above is just what I was looking for


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## gina2201 (19 October 2010)

Excellent thread and above post/s. 

I am getting a puppy in a few weeks who is currently fed this raw/BARF diet, well mum is and they start to experiment so am keen to continue this, I will have to find a good butcher! 

How much do you feed your dogs a day, (say in kg) for an adult, and do you find it works ut cheaper then a conventional "complete" food?


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## KarynK (19 October 2010)

The great thing about raw is that you don't have to be precise, it's very forgiving.  I have I never actually weighed mine's food,  if they are looking a little portly I feed more bone and if they are lean I'll go up to chicken legs with more muscle meat on them.  So bone fills them up without putting weight on and muscle meat piles on the pounds!

From the butcher I just got a months worth of raw meat and bones, the bulk of their diet for £5 and that's for 2!!


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## gina2201 (19 October 2010)

Excellent, thankyou very much, I have read so many good, and not so good, things about this diet that it is quite confusing.


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## KarynK (19 October 2010)

Best intro book is Ian Billinghurst's book Give Your Dog a Bone, I don't agree with all of that one, mine are not fed dairy or anything like pasta, but it's a good starter.  He has also written a couple of others " Grow your pups with bones" and "The BARF diet". His website is 
http://www.drianbillinghurst.com/# and he is a vet!


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## soloabe (19 October 2010)

This website is Fab and i agree with far more in it than Ian's book although he does have a lot of good things in his book.

http://preymodelraw.com/


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## Cinnamontoast (19 October 2010)

I asked TFC to make it a sticky so I could stop annoying people with random questions.


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## Cinnamontoast (22 October 2010)

Oh.....my.....God!   

Haven't seen OH for some days as he's on lates. I just got home and he has been to Pets at Home who didn't have Skinners so he wrote one of his epic notes saying 'why don't we feed raw?' FAINT! I have been subtly pestering for about 3 weeks but not pressing too hard. There is a massive box of chicken wings in the fridge and he wants to start now! (He doesn't know not to mix raw and kibble on the same day, bless him, so it'll be tomorrow)

I am flipping delighted! I've trawled other raw posts for a list-thank you Karynk as yours will be my basis! 

It's half term so I am on a mission to find a processing place and a decent butcher and will be haunting the meat aisle in all local supermarkets in a frenzied manner!

It feels a bit like my birthday! I'm so very pleased he has seen the light! I think it has a lot to do with Jake and the potential effects of rubbish low cost food he sometimes got . OH says what if that caused his cancer? Devastating thought so no way am I risking Brig and the babies.

*Stupid question alert: 
* are they old enough to go raw? (They're 5 months, nearly, just tell me to stop being stupid!)
* And if feeding veg, should it be cooked or just blended raw?
* Can I just switch completely or should I do some days kibble still as they're so young?*


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## soloabe (22 October 2010)

cinammontoast said:



*Stupid question alert: 
* are they old enough to go raw? (They're 5 months, nearly, just tell me to stop being stupid!)
* And if feeding veg, should it be cooked or just blended raw?
* Can I just switch completely or should I do some days kibble still as they're so young?*

Click to expand...

Yes they are old enough. We have had 8 week old puppies on raw!

When i use to feed it i would blend it raw.

Switch completely. I personally don't think it does them any good to get kibble and raw.


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## Cinnamontoast (22 October 2010)

List of possible foods, very useful: 

http://rawfeddogs.net/Recipes

FAQs from the same site: 

*How much should I feed?
*The general guideline is 2% to 3% of your dog's ideal adult weight. This is only a starting point. Each dog is different. Watch your dog's waist and ribs. If your dog gets too chubby, cut back on what you're feeding. If your dog gets too thin, increase what you're feeding.


What should I start with when I switch my dog to raw?
One common beginner mistake is to feed too much variety too soon. Pick one protein source and stick with it for a week or two. A popular choice for dogs new to raw is chicken. It's inexpensive, the bones are relatively soft and easy to digest for beginners, and it's easy to find.


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## Cinnamontoast (22 October 2010)

I know I'm a pain! 

The OH bought chicken wings: is this a good thing to use and should I feed the pups (and Brig) whole wings or chop them? I'm sure that at some point I will be confident to get on and do this!


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## Cinnamontoast (24 October 2010)

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-health-nutrition/111437-raw-feeding-everything-you-need-know.html

Superb.


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## KarynK (26 October 2010)

Right as we have a sticky here are some useful facts about why I feed raw:


Dogs, yes even small domestic dogs have evolved from the wild dog over thousands of years to eat protein and fat and bones for their main source of energy.  That wild dog perfected a system of eating meat protein over millions of years, they have gave up eating plants to chase catch and kill those that do!   Meat, fat, bones all contain sources of energy that are easy to break down and require less frequent feeding to gain the energy necessary to live feed and reproduce.

In the course of that evolution many things have changed that are clues to the diet they need:

Dentition

Their teeth are sharp edged saws for cutting/tearing their food which is swallowed in large chunks.  Dogs do not start the digestive process in the mouth like humans do by chewing and adding elements to the saliva, it goes straight to the stomach for that in lumps.   They have therefore on a natural diet no need to chew anything into small bits, a good things as they cannot grind with their teeth a big clue as plant eaters almost always can, they have flat molars in the back of the mouth to grind plant material and break into the plant cell walls to get at the goodies..  A dog has no tooth brush; their solution is meat and bones to keep them clean

Digestive System

Their gut is very short, of all the carnivores dogs have got by with serious scavenging at times, they have dealt with the problems of rotting meat by having a very short, very naturally acidic gut, that way they can ingest germs that would kill a human.  If the acidity in their gut does not kill bad bacteria the speed at which their natural diet passes through does not allow the bugs time to breed and take hold.  Plant eaters especially herbivores have long guts to stew the plant material and employ friendly bacteria to help get at the nutrients from plant cells.

The speed of this digestion is why you should never mix dry food with natural diet, dried products and cooked tinned products slow down the system in order for the dog to get anything from them, mixing the two speeds can mean serious blockages!!

Protein sources from meat are a much higher quality than those which plants produce.  Plant proteins often used in commercial dog food cannot compete with the proteins of the natural diet.  Meat proteins are easy to break down with the acidity of the dogs gut.  Ever heard of Scurvy?   Its a disease that affects humans if they have no dietary source of vitamin C from plants  Dogs have no need of vitamin C in their diet they manufacture their own in their liver, another clue as to what they have evolved to eat, (not plants)!  BUT this is obtained through the use minerals provided in the diet and if these are of poor quality or synthetic well!

A dog has NO DIETARY REQUIREMENT for CARBOHYDRATES.  A dog does not need what we would call high fibre, no bran flakes or anything like that at all.  A dogs natural fibre is Bone, fur, feathers and claws.  Eating a well thought out raw diet provides all the fibre they need, and the naturally hard stools it produces cleans out the anal gland rather than your expensive vets efforts!!


The Evolution thing!

Many commercial fans try and imply that the dog after just a few decades can no longer eat a meat diet!  How fantastic that modern science can change evolution so quickly (RUBBISH)!  A dog still has all the set up to eat meat it is just not allowed!! 

So to counter this Commercial dried foods for dogs only became popular in the USA in the 1970's, before that dogs were either fed wet tinned with scraps or raw bones hence the saying "as fit as a Butchers Dog". I find it alarming that few vets question this sudden miraculous transformation to a carnivore needing to be fed an almost vegetarian diet!

Personally I am worried by the number of illnesses we see since commercial dog food and especially kibble is used.  Diabetes (how can that happen to a carnivore? they shouldnt be relying on sugars for food!)  More complex cancers and bowel cancers, itchiness, obesity, ear problems, anal gland infection and removal, bad breath, rotting teeth, most of this list I do not see in raw fed dogs, especially those that are the result of several generations of raw feeding.  Dr Ian Billinghurst (B.V.Sc) has been much criticised by his own profession for speaking out against commercial pet foods, Australia being behind the USA in introducing convenience pet foods he was alarmed by the sudden decline in health of his own and clients dogs, he decided to switch his dogs back to raw and has never looked back, he really is the one that has opened most peoples eyes.


Look at film footage from around the world that shows feral dogs on streets.  After just a few generations of no human intervention regardless of the breeds that form them they begin to look alike, the coat begins to shorten, the tail becomes fluffy and is often carried over the back, they begin to look like spitz breeds and some develop a double coat, doesnt take long to start getting woolfie again does it!!!

You cannot actually tell a wolf from a dog with DNA and even the shared mitochondrial DNA is 99% ! In fact Dogs have been reclassified as a species by the Smithsonian institute from Canis Familiaris to Canis Lupus Familiaris in light of this extremely close relationship!

But the best counter to this is the Panda story 

The modern giant panda evolved during the late Pleistocene. Pandas were like their tropical bear species cousins, originally omnivorous but due to competition with other efficient predators, primarily the large cats, they began to specialise exploit plants. In order to do that they had to adapt somewhat over hundreds of thousands of years, yet their digestive tract has not changed drastically in that time period nor has their dentition, their body shape has changed to allow for the bulk the amount they eat. The Major concession is that because their digestion of highly fibrous food is still poor they must spend most of their time awake eating. They are now too big and slow to be omnivorous again but their teeth and digestive systems are yet to change significantly after all that time!!!


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## KarynK (26 October 2010)

And one to help those who want to stick with commercials though this grates a bit !!!!  SO now we have it all in one place and I don't have to search for it!!

If you don&#8217;t wish to feed this way but want a better lot for your dog my advice is to pick a pet food that is quality, so a high proportion of meat and little or no carbs used for bulk like, cereals, rice and potatoes.  Also one that is not cooked excessively,  and uses only natural preservatives and stabilisers.

Here is a guide to pet food terms and their real meaning!
With meat as a rule the more simple the name the higher the meat content:

A label like Lamb dog food must contain 70 + % of actual lamb. 

But something like Beef platter with vegetables requires 10% minimum. 

Anything saying &#8220;with&#8221; lamb requires a 4% minimum and 

Lamb flavour can contain none at all!

If in doubt check the label good quality foods will have meat listed as the first ingredient as they are listed in descending order by weight . It should also specify from what animal. 

Definitions

Meat = clean flesh, skin, fat, organs and sinews.

By-products = anything else other than meat as above so includes feathers, beaks hooves, hair, horns, teeth, bones, feet, even unborn foetuses, etc. 

Meal = rendered meat, basically all the leftovers are put into a vat, boiled, then dried out and ground into a fine powder. This process will destroy everything good and bad, bacteria, parasites and other possible pathogens but also nutritional elements which are artificially replaced afterwards. In the US this can contain traces of barbiturates used to euthanize the animals used to make it, including pets.

Digest = clean and undecomposed animal tissue which is broken down by enzymes or chemicals into a water substance and used as a flavour enhancer which is often sprayed onto the kibble in small amounts to make it appetizing. This is often referred to as gravy or not listed at all.

Cereal by-products = cheap source of carbohydrate and vegetable protein, not suitable for human consumption, it can be mixed or poor quality lower grade cereals. 

There are only 2 standards of pet nutrition recognised by the pet food inspectors, growth stage (which includes gestation and lactation) and adult. So labels stating designed for something like &#8220;senior&#8221; are usually just marketing apart from small amounts of glucosamine or similar to assist with joint pain but usually in a quantity too small to assist. Sometimes you can find references to feeding trials; this indicates that the manufacturer has tested the product in accordance to strict guidelines. 

Pet foods for meat eaters containing vegetable proteins, cellulose, wheat barley and maize are indicators of poorer quality foods. 

Additives: antioxidants/preservatives have to be added to allow the kibble to last for around 12 Months, otherwise the fats would become rancid. Some of the common addatives are:

BHA (used to stop the fats going rancid) is suspected to cause stomach cancer, behavioural changes, hyperactivity, liver damage and fetal abnormalities and metabolic stress. 

BHT (used to stop the fats going rancid) is suspected to cause liver issues, thyroid and bladder cancer and metabolic stress. 

Ethoxyquin (synthetic antioxidant, also used as a pesticide) is suspected to cause cancer, kidney related problems and numerous other health issues 

Propylene glycol (a water attracter that keeps food moist, also used as antifreeze) is suspected to cause the destruction of red blood cells. 

Artificial Colours Red #2 and #40, Violet #1, Blue #2, Yellow No 5 and 6 are suspected to be linked to cancer, birth defects and skin lesions 

More natural additives for stopping food going rancid are tocopherols and rosemary oil but they are not as effective and the shlf life is shorter.

ANY ingredients even natural ones that are pre treated with chemicals BEFORE being delivered to the manufacturer of a feed DO NOT need to be declared on the label. In fact some companies will do all in their power to not declare certain ingredients!

Basically if the label looks too short and simple it is probably far from complete, if you want to know how good your feed is ask questions of you manufacturer if you don't like or believe the replies vote with your feet.

This is a good guide to choosing the better food for your pets
http://www.pet-food-choice.co.uk/pet...ngredients.htm

The example table half way down this page shows how Burns compares quite badly in their labelling compared to Pets at Home!!!!! Bit of an eye opener
http://www.pet-food-choice.co.uk/pet_food_labels.htm


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## willhegofirst (26 October 2010)

Is there any evidance to show feeding raw is better in the prevention of Bloat? If so do you have to wait the hour either side of a walk to feed them.


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## KarynK (28 October 2010)

Sorry for tardy reply laptop is awating an exploratory op!

I have not heard of any dogs bloating on the diet and generally speaking bloat is down to food swelling and coming to a halt in the digestive process.  Since a natural diet does not swell then it is very unlikely that it would cause bloat.  If you stick dog food biscuits in a glass of water its quite scary how much it swells!

I know there are breeds that are &#8220;labelled&#8221; as being prone to bloat and perhaps most dogs from these breeds would benefit from raw diet, unless of course the &#8220;bloat&#8221; is related to intestinal abnormalities then it could be that they will suffer from intestinal problems no matter what they are fed, but I would hope that this would be a rarity!  

What I would say is that breeds prone to bloat should never ever be fed kibble anywhere near a raw meal as that could result in real trouble!


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## Cinnamontoast (28 October 2010)

Cor, Karynk, you are superb! A million thanks.


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## gina2201 (15 November 2010)

Quick question. I have a Bernese Mountain Dog puppy who I bought just over a week ago, now approx 9 weeks. The breeder had fed the BARF/RAW diet for 7 year with success, never had a problem.

It's a new concept/idea for us and watching the puppy today, he was trying to pass a stool for a little while, and in the end, when I went to pick it up, it was a bone! Is this right?! It was decent length aswell which made me question it, about 2 inches maybe?

I am following the diet according to the breeder and the only bones he gets are from chicken wings which she fed the puppies and suggested.


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## soloabe (16 November 2010)

Gina i would add some oil to his meal and maybe a little more boneless meat.


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## willhegofirst (20 November 2010)

What treats do people feeding raw give their dogs? Our 10 month Spinone can be a little willful, so still gets treats for successful recall when out, at the moment she gets puppy markies or other small treats, but not sure this is the best thing to give her.


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## Cinnamontoast (21 November 2010)

willhegofirst said:



			What treats do people feeding raw give their dogs? Our 10 month Spinone can be a little willful, so still gets treats for successful recall when out, at the moment she gets puppy markies or other small treats, but not sure this is the best thing to give her.
		
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I'm using puppy bones from Pets at Home (tiniest treats in the world!) on walks at the minute. I hear you can use cheese, cooked meat, sausage etc but frankly my pockets are already full of shavings and horse treats! My local pet shop does chicken treats but teeny packet, huge price.

I've given away all the markies we had, along with any other grain based treats. I'm hoping that after a couple of weeks, I can wean them off treats for recall-first day off-lead today.


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## FestiveSpirit (27 November 2010)

Hmmm - how about feeding raw to a greyhound with no teeth?  She is struggling with the bones a lot and she has also lost condition since going onto raw from Skinners?

On Blackcob's suggestion I bought some pork ribs today, the other two loved them and will definitely have them again but Islay just couldnt manage them


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## Cinnamontoast (27 November 2010)

I just trawled the supermarket for pork stuff: there were belly pork slices for much cheapness. Could you blend them for her? Maybe small pieces of pork stir fry chunks?

If a dog needs to gain weight, chicken leg meat is good. Trip is probably not great for putting on weight. Raw egg is good over mince. I get chicken mince from the greyhound man and a raw egg stirred in would be full of protein/calories.


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## Saby (20 December 2010)

Just to add, dogs do need a little vegatation in their diet.
They dont need much but a little is nessacary to maintain vitamin and mineral levels, especially the calciumhosphorus ratio


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## Cinnamontoast (21 December 2010)

Saby said:



			Just to add, dogs do need a little vegatation in their diet.
They dont need much but a little is nessacary to maintain vitamin and mineral levels, especially the calciumhosphorus ratio
		
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There's a huge debate about this still. Mine aren't deliberately fed veg but get ends of carrots etc when I'm cooking.


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## KarynK (23 December 2010)

Saby said:



			Just to add, dogs do need a little vegatation in their diet.
They dont need much but a little is nessacary to maintain vitamin and mineral levels, especially the calciumhosphorus ratio
		
Click to expand...

There has been a long debate about this, I dont know that they need so much as want, certainly all their nutritional requirements are met by their natural diet of meat and bone and that could include some veg matter from the stomach of prey but that would depend on the prey they kill and their pack status as alphas get the pick of the kill and from the research choose the best meat cuts rather than stomach contents.

Dogs are scavengers and opportunists so will eat anything that comes their way so even wild dogs may cash in on fruit they come across, but certainly wolves in high country in winter would not get anything in the way of digestible vegetable matter for a very long period, since their prey are living off fat reserves and very high fibre content browse at that time of year.

Ian Billinghurst argues that dogs are omnivores but looking at their teeth and digestive system I would say that they are carnivores that may choose to be omnivores given their survival instinct and the food being available.  My own dogs do like veg in their diet or they will find their own usually from the rear end of the horses! so they get a small amount but it has to be liquidised for them to get much out of it as they cannot breakdown plant cell walls easily that's a job for a herbivore.

Yes veg matter does supply some vitamins but weather most of those unless from ripe fruit or pre digested grasses is available for the wild dog to use is debatable and is supplied by their meat and bone diet anyway.  It is this availability and adding in artificial substitutes that I think is causing dogs problems with some modern processed foods .  

Dogs actually produce their own vitamin C so do not need to eat veg and fruit like we do, we would get scurvy if we didnt get Vit C from our diet.

On a natural diet of meat and bone they do not need any veg to maintain the correct calcium phosphorus ratio, it is correct in the natural diet.  Certainly feeding a dog lots of cereals will seriously affect that ratio leading to bone and teeth disorders as cereals are high in phosphorous and low in calcium instead of high calcium and lower phosphorous.  Calcium is actually low in fruits, nuts and seeds and even in green veg a human would have to eat vast quantities to get much calcium from it and a dog even more so as they cannot break through the plant cell walls.  They would certainly not get enough to counteract eating lots of cereals.


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## Saby (23 December 2010)

This is what i meant, dogs meet the vast majority of their needs through bone and meat, but if given the chance they will eat some level of vegetation/fruit for its fibre and nutrients. Dogs cannot convert the nutrients in the stomach of their prey like other animals such as cats can. They need a small level of vegetation which they will balance themselves, hence why they eat grass, not only to make themselves sick but also to use as a binding agent and fibre.
I agree they only need this in very small quantities and will self-regulate how much they need. 
I don't personally agree that dogs are carnivores as they will eat vegetation through choice and they are designed to be omnivores. I can however understand the idea that they are almost like carnivores as they require very little veg.


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## KarynK (24 December 2010)

I would not personally categorise a dog as an omnivore based on the fact that they can choose to eat other things, a scavenger, survivor and opportunist certainly yes but not a true omnivore. 

A true omnivore like the Human needs a variety of foods from diverse sources in order to survive.  A human cannot just eat meat and bones without adverse effects on health, a dog certainly can.  Dogs have no dietary requirement for carbohydrates their energy source is protein and fat, just because a dog can be fed sugars does not change the fact that they have not evolved to use them effectively.  They also have the ability to manufacture the major vitamins within their body that we have to get from plants.  

The dentition and the digestive system of a healthy dog is all geared up to quickly ingest and digest bits of other animal, it has powerful crushing jaws and it&#8217;s teeth are razor sharp and most importantly so are it&#8217;s molars, where as ours are broader and flatter and with our jaw muscles and shape enable us to chew and break down plant cell walls, same with bears that are also omnivores.  A dog is not set up to chew with it&#8217;s jaw and it&#8217;s teeth cannot grind, nor does it release enzymes to break down sugars in the mouth like we do, if allowed to it tears great chunks and swallows them, the stomach is where it all takes place with high acidity, but high acidity does not allow for the breakdown of plant cells.  A Tiger shark will eat anything it comes across fruit, veg, bits of cars etc but that does not make it an omnivore and its teeth and gut are designed to tear and eat flesh like a dog does on land.   

The biggest pointer to carnivore is that a dog can only gain nutrients from plants with outside help, in the wild it can get this from it&#8217;s prey in small amounts in the guts or green tripe as we call it, but like I said in winter a wolf would get nothing from this as most herbivores are eating lichens or parts of trees just for something to nibble on and living off their fat reserves.   In the domestic raw diet a dog can get nutrients from plants if we bash them in the liquidiser, but you sould always bear in mind that any nutrients from plants are not as good a quality as those from the natural meat diet.

So it&#8217;s not a necessity at all for a dog to eat any veg, but equally in small amounts fed in as natural diet it can be helpful particularly as we as humans rarely feed our dogs enough of their natural fibre, bones, teeth, claws, beaks, fur and feathers, and if dogs likes it and it&#8217;s good quality green/root veg and not cereal then why not?   But  equally a dog fed quality raw meaty bones of different species (the largest part of the diet), offal especially liver and eggs will have all it&#8217;s vitamin, mineral, protein/amino acid, essential fatty acid and antioxidant requirements in the correct proportions and of the highest quality for canines without feeding any vegetable matter.

So really what I am saying is that adding veg is a personal choice for the owner not an absolute necessity for the dog.  What I don&#8217;t like to see is the diet getting &#8220;corrupted&#8221; further down the line where it suddenly becomes essential to feed  large amounts of veg, then further adding pasta, dairy etc all at the expense of the raw meaty bones, and they are the vital element.


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## Cinnamontoast (24 December 2010)

I'm discovering the benefits of Christmas, having asked about ordering chicken carcasses and being told it was too close to Christmas to get any. The butcher then offered me remnants of turkey: I got a bag weighing about 3 stones, dragged it down the street to the car! 

I butchered turkey carcasses, bagged the huge wings and the perfect looking bones and froze the lot. It must be a good couple of weeks' worth of bones with tons of meat attached, all for free! He was going to throw it out!

Am just stupidly gutted cos all the cheap turkeys that will be on sale in 2 days won't fit in my now stuffed freezer!


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## KarynK (26 December 2010)

Just posted a pic of the boys Xmas dinner two huge turkey carcasses, even they could not eat it all in one day though they tried and were as stuffed as me!!   Got a couple of crowns for me reduced to silly prices but no more room in the freezer like you I find it really hard not to buy it a stupid prices, though it's still cold enough to keep it outside I suppose!!!


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## Cinnamontoast (27 December 2010)

KarynK said:



			Just posted a pic of the boys Xmas dinner two huge turkey carcasses, even they could not eat it all in one day though they tried and were as stuffed as me!!   Got a couple of crowns for me reduced to silly prices but no more room in the freezer like you I find it really hard not to buy it a stupid prices, though it's still cold enough to keep it outside I suppose!!!
		
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We're getting a big thaw here, everything's dripping!

I gave Brig turkey carcass for tea yesterday and he took ages to eat it: I think he's just not a big enough dog to cope! The pups had some wings and were in heaven: I think their teeth and jaws are getting very strong as they were switched to raw before their adult teeth came in properly.


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## cellie (5 January 2011)

Just been catching up on all the posts about  raw diet what does barf stand for?.Could you also tell me if you feed outside cant imagine having dead carcass all over my  tiles or carpets lol.My pup is  about 18 weeks Im very interested in raw diet as Im fed up with studying all packet food for pups . I remember my parents discussing  their first dog  (49 yrs ago) being on  raw diet and how hard it was if they went  on holiday.
I have australian shepherd and would be  very grateful for tips on amount and type of feed he would be on if I swap.On negative side Ive  just purchased two large bags of puppy food 
Is it  best to switch over to all one type of feed.


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## soloabe (5 January 2011)

Yes it is best to switch over to one type of feed. You can't feed raw and kibble together on the same day.

As for holidays if we take the dog with us we stop at the supermarket and pick up some meat if he goes to kennels he gets dry food taken with him.(thats if i can't get him to his pet sitter who feeds him raw)

I too have an Aussie. He gets a turkey leg in the morning with a small amount of organ meat and 2 chicken wings.
I weighed it out when i first started feeding years ago and it should be 2-3% of their body weight over time you just adjust by eye.

It balances itself out over about 12 days.

BARF stands for bones and raw food.

You can feed outside if you want. We do in the summer otherwise we just lay a towel down on the floor and they eat on that.


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## CorvusCorax (5 January 2011)

For holidays, emergencies, people who don't want to go the whole hog etc, DUCK is a frozen patty which mimics raw/natural feeding.


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## cellie (6 January 2011)

CaveCanem said:



			For holidays, emergencies, people who don't want to go the whole hog etc, DUCK is a frozen patty which mimics raw/natural feeding.
		
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Had a look on the internet and its not obvious where I can buy duck from the  english address  for  suppliers are too far away from me.Do you have a site you use ?Or can you buy from supermarkets/pet stores etc
My butcher on local market sells pet food £2 kilo which seems good value looks like mixed offal ,Axel has spent most of  afternoon knawing on knuckle bone  that butcher gave me, he still has baby teeth .
Thanks for all info.


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## Cinnamontoast (6 January 2011)

cellie said:



			Had a look on the internet and its not obvious where I can buy duck from the  english address  for  suppliers are too far away from me.Do you have a site you use ?Or can you buy from supermarkets/pet stores etc
My butcher on local market sells pet food £2 kilo which seems good value looks like mixed offal ,Axel has spent most of  afternoon knawing on knuckle bone  that butcher gave me, he still has baby teeth .
Thanks for all info.
		
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Careful what bones you give: avoid weight bearing cow bones, for example, as they may crack her teeth being too tough, really. Anything you can stick a knife in is apparently OK.


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## cellie (6 January 2011)

cinammontoast said:



			Careful what bones you give: avoid weight bearing cow bones, for example, as they may crack her teeth being too tough, really. Anything you can stick a knife in is apparently OK.
		
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thanks for the tip


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## KarynK (10 January 2011)

cellie said:



			Had a look on the internet and its not obvious where I can buy duck from the  english address  for  suppliers are too far away from me.Do you have a site you use ?Or can you buy from supermarkets/pet stores etc
My butcher on local market sells pet food £2 kilo which seems good value looks like mixed offal ,Axel has spent most of  afternoon knawing on knuckle bone  that butcher gave me, he still has baby teeth .
Thanks for all info.
		
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These supply Human grade raw diet they are based in Surrey and have good quality stuff in portion sizes for those starting out.

http://www.naturalinstinct.com/


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## Cinnamontoast (10 January 2011)

KarynK said:



			These supply Human grade raw diet they are based in Surrey and have good quality stuff in portion sizes for those starting out.

http://www.naturalinstinct.com/

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Holy moly! £4 for a kilo! I know it's human grade but I'm getting 15kgs of good quality tripe for £10!


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## CorvusCorax (10 January 2011)

Sorry for the delay Cellie. 

http://www.duck-uk.co.uk/Suppliers.htm

Those guys can also recommend others who supply closer to you, as I know there are more!
Steve Havers is another one, he runs dog training in Leics, Google him.
I have no links to this company BTW.


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## KarynK (12 January 2011)

cinammontoast said:



			Holy moly! £4 for a kilo! I know it's human grade but I'm getting 15kgs of good quality tripe for £10!
		
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Didnt say it would be cheap ha ha.  There are a lot of regs about handling meat especially raw so I suspect the overheads might be more than me trotting to the butcher, plus its a niche market ATM.  Have seen their stuff at a dog show and it looks good with a high bone content so wont knock them.  I like the dried liver treats they do as mine arent keen on the real thing.

 I know some people are nervous about portion size and have trouble sourcing so it is a useful place to start.  But you are never gonna beat chatting up the Butcher or Chicken factory!!


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## Cinnamontoast (12 January 2011)

KarynK said:



			I know some people are nervous about portion size and have trouble sourcing so it is a useful place to start.  But you are never gonna beat chatting up the Butcher or Chicken factory!!
		
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Very true but given the OH (who's a bloke) found all the stuff (from other males) should I be worried?!


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## CorvusCorax (12 January 2011)

Just want to come on and celebrate that I just got two chickens, six chicken quarters (one and a half chickens? ) two packs of liver, and two huge packs of mince for around a fiver in Tesco's bargain bin, woo hoo!!!


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## KarynK (12 January 2011)

cinammontoast said:



			Very true but given the OH (who's a bloke) found all the stuff (from other males) should I be worried?!
		
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Only if he's showing other signs like a remote interest in Dancing on Ice or if he was a big strictly fan!

Well done CC Gold Star Bargain Hunter !  No Turkey legs??


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## CorvusCorax (12 January 2011)

They're too dear for me now!!!  I won't pay more than £1.35 for a bird these days


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## Cinnamontoast (13 January 2011)

CaveCanem said:



			Just want to come on and celebrate that I just got two chickens, six chicken quarters (one and a half chickens? ) two packs of liver, and two huge packs of mince for around a fiver in Tesco's bargain bin, woo hoo!!!
		
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I'm scared that nowadays I get excited by raw meat!



KarynK said:



			Only if he's showing other signs like a remote interest in Dancing on Ice or if he was a big strictly fan!
		
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No, I can only watch Dancing on Ice if he's out!


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## KarynK (13 January 2011)

You're definately safe!


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## CorvusCorax (14 January 2011)

cinammontoast said:



			I'm scared that nowadays I get excited by raw meat!
		
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Yep, I get a real thrill sourcing cheap meat, I think I need help.
I always made a point of telling the till people that all the microwave meals are for me and all the meat is for the dogs, they always look at me like I have two heads


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## blackcob (14 January 2011)

Anybody who was buying the BOGOF trays of chicken thighs/drummers at Sainsburys, they're now back at normal price (boooo) _but_ they now do a 2kg sack of value chicken portions (drumsticks, whole legs, wings) in the freezer section for something like £3.40. 

I may have also picked up a bag of value frozen lamb chops for £3 as a treat.


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## willhegofirst (15 January 2011)

Blackcob, that is just the same as we get out dogs!! plus chicken carcases and bit from the butcher.


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## mollichop (17 January 2011)

I'm concerned now that both of mine have had bad tummies off and on for the past few weeks (not both at the same time though).

Have I got the balance wrong?

Typical day is chicken wings or drummers a.m and offal mix from butchers or mince with raw egg or oily fish a couple of times a week p.m. They also sometimes have lamb scragg end and tripe. I was, up til the weekend feeding pork chops/steaks but apparently this is not so good for them so have eliminated from the diet. Does this sound about right? Why the upset to their systems do you think? 

Thanks


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## soloabe (17 January 2011)

mollichop said:



			I'm concerned now that both of mine have had bad tummies off and on for the past few weeks (not both at the same time though).

Have I got the balance wrong?

Typical day is chicken wings or drummers a.m and offal mix from butchers or mince with raw egg or oily fish a couple of times a week p.m. They also sometimes have lamb scragg end and tripe. I was, up til the weekend feeding pork chops/steaks but apparently this is not so good for them so have eliminated from the diet. Does this sound about right? Why the upset to their systems do you think? 

Thanks 

Click to expand...

I feed offal twice a week at most its to rich imo to feed everyday at mine get a bad tummy on it if i feed it more often.

Mine have something with bone in it almost every meal.

Are you feeding the same and they are back to normal now? If so it may just been a little tummy bug they got.


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## mollichop (18 January 2011)

Thanks Katielou, so I can feed bone content in both daily meals? I think the pork was too rich for them.

So should chicken with bones be the main staple for them?


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## KarynK (18 January 2011)

Chicken is one of the best meaty bones for all they key nutrients, it's easy to source, the bones are not to hard and it will be high in essential fatty acids and key amino acids, where some lean red meat's aren't as good.  Basically a diet of mostly raw meaty bones (80% bone to meat) of chicken, lamb an occasional bit of pork, some offal once or twice a week and eggs provide everything a dog needs in abundance and in the correct ratios.

Pork can be very rich, mine only get it occasionally because of the foul botty burps that seem to follow it, that said if it's on offer they get some and they love piggie tooties.

Just read above, have found over the years that lamb bones are excellent for firming up if they have had a bit too much of the rich stuff.


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## soloabe (18 January 2011)

mollichop said:



			Thanks Katielou, so I can feed bone content in both daily meals? I think the pork was too rich for them.

So should chicken with bones be the main staple for them?
		
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Yes you can feed bone every meal as long at its about the correct ratio of bone to meat. If they get to firm just down the bone content a bit.

It really is a by eye thing 

Pork is to rich for mine the only pork product they get is feet occasionally.

Chicken, turkey and offal make up 99% of my dogs diet.

Lamb is sooo expensive here so they generally just get the recreational lamb bones once a month but no real meat.

I have found that pure canned pumpkin is awesome at firming things up.


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## Cinnamontoast (18 January 2011)

Does anyone use tripe as one of their staples? My lot are on tripe and chicken carcasses currently.


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## mollichop (19 January 2011)

Brilliant, that helps a lot thankyou guys! Both seem to be much firmer now 

Mine get tripe prob once a week, either the frozen chunks from Pets at home or my butchers does fresh cuts for a couple of quid a packet. I just hold my nose and chuck it at them on the patio though - bleugh!


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## unicornleather (30 January 2011)

I've been feeding my 3 on raw meat and bones for 5 years or more now, would never go back to commercial food. I use www.landywoods.co.uk hard to beat on price, they sell raw marrow bones too which my dogs love.
The other company I use sometimes is www.thedogfoodcompany.co.uk 
Oz


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## cellie (1 February 2011)

One or two more questions about barf.
Started  5 month  pup on chicken  legs/wings this morning  I understand that I musnt mix his  kibble in same  day but wondered  if he could have cooked  chicken or other cooked meat  later in day.Hes not  been having much kibble  mostly has  cooked offal /pet feed from butcher and  bones with marrow.
Having roast chicken tonight and  he always has  our left over meat potato etc.
Is it same rule not to mix feed types or  does cooked or raw not conflict.


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## soloabe (1 February 2011)

Cooked meats are fine. I wouldn't give him potato but meat and other veg is grand.


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## cellie (1 February 2011)

brilliant, thanks I prefer dishing up cooked offal disgusting looking yuk lol


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## soloabe (2 February 2011)

The thing with cooking offal is that it cooks out most of the nutrients.


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## Toffee44 (16 March 2011)

Just small announcement really. I am never going back to kibble! Mine have been feed raw for over a week. Yellow teeth are white. Dylan actually chews ! And Teal just lives for RMBs. At the moment its not working out cheaper than Wainwrights But with time we will get there. Plus I'm  feeding a growing large puppy. My main expense is poultry but putting order in with landywoods Nd my butcher has just done me 3kg of chicken backs and thighs that didn't sell Monday for 2quid, now having regular order from him. Plus if you get your dogs pig tails they are entertainment for,both canine and human!


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## KarynK (16 March 2011)

You'll probably find that using the Butcher regularly he will start to put the bargains your way!!!!  That brings the price down quite a bit when they have clear outs like that.


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## Toffee44 (16 March 2011)

Doubt it  one butcher has a lot of raw feeders through and now makes ground minces and has a dog freezer charges about 70p - 80p a lb of minced offal and bone. the one I  get chicken carcass from thinks I'm mad lol. Am new to area so Hopefully as I find my way round  I will find more. OH parents live Hampshire way so that's the next area to scout.


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## Cinnamontoast (17 March 2011)

That's double the price I pay for mince. See if there's a big greyhound training kennels nearby or an abattoir. Wonder if The Dog Food Company deliver in your area? I can ask when I see him tonight?


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## Toffee44 (17 March 2011)

They don't  they do a town  nearby three monthly and landywoods monthly so will do that for turkey wings, chunks and tripe. We have 2 freezers. I get venison Nd pork for nothing and rabbits for couple quid from my farrier so can't moan too much.


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## Cinnamontoast (17 March 2011)

Got whole rabbits and discovered the freezer drawer isn't long enough to take them-duh! Can I defrost and give straight to the boys? I dunno if a new meat would upset their little bellies? I'm ok to butcher but someone told me they butchered one and it was going to be a mum-that would not be my top option!


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## KarynK (17 March 2011)

They shouldn't be any problem, I would probably avoid it for dogs just starting out but judging by the humming stuff mine like a nice defrosted whole wabbit should be fine!!


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## KarynK (17 March 2011)

Toffee44 said:



			Doubt it  one butcher has a lot of raw feeders through and now makes ground minces and has a dog freezer charges about 70p - 80p a lb of minced offal and bone. the one I  get chicken carcass from thinks I'm mad lol. Am new to area so Hopefully as I find my way round  I will find more. OH parents live Hampshire way so that's the next area to scout.
		
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Yep you have to get their 1st !!  Trouble is once a shop keeper sees a profit!!


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## Toffee44 (17 March 2011)

If anyone is Nr chichester and can recommend a butcher that would be fab. 

I am so lucky with my dogs they have eaten anything I offered when I wanted to give them the lamb bones they raided them by them selves,  my fault didn't shut the door properly. Was worried about fish but Teal soon learnt that if he fussed over it the steel stomached puppy would eat two! ! 


Lol and today they sorted out their own tea as a car hit a pheasant on our drive and Teal picked it up on his way home lol. They have rabbit next week and still deciding whether to gut it or not, it would have been netted. And they arent fussy and have eaten whole rabbit before that won't be so fresh.
Oh and they love deer  rib cage lol. And deer head but can't watch them eat that! Teal has gained weight looks good. Puppy has gained weight but going to keep eye on him as obv don't want him over weight.


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## liveryblues (30 March 2011)

Hi all. I am a very recent convert to raw after finding out my older dog has bone cancer, it really made methink about their diet. We have two big dogs (ridgebacks) and a 14 week old pup (ridgeback) am I ok to feed any bones? They love chicken wings/thighs/quaters but I have just found a local farm shop who will happily supply free pork, lamb & beef bones, are these all ok? the pork ribs do seem to splinter alot more, the lamb and beef bones are bigger and harder? I know I have very large dogs and am probably worrying about nothing! will the pup be ok with them too or should I stick with chicken carcases for now?


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## cellie (30 March 2011)

As long as you dont give weight bearing bones to puppy he will be fine.Large bones could damage his teeth.My 7 month old will eat  whole  rib of lamb and he has  chicken carcass and wings.I used to give him  large bones for  marrow then take them away rather than let  him continually grind  .


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## KarynK (31 March 2011)

I don't usually bother with beef bones as cellie says  they are too hard, they are the oldest of the farm animals when killed so it makes sense. Beef is also the lowest meat and bone for the essential nutrients and it's expensive too.  I do occasionally use mince beef when it's on offer and now and again they get some ox tail if it is reduced enough!!!

Pork is probably the next in age when killed and they are quite big animals so they can be hard too especially the leg bones, it is better than beef for most nutrients but behind lamb, it can also be a bit rich and I make sure mine get it when I am not going to be around for a while!!!  Ribs are the best bones on pork for dogs and the feet are not bad as they have a lot of cartilage.

Lamb is relatively soft as they are killed quite young, mine love the ribs but as they are getting older I tend to avoid the harder bones to help their teeth in good condition.  Chicken is the best nutritionally and as they are killed not long after thy hatch these days the bones are very soft.

My diet meaty bone wise  is mostly chicken and lamb ribs with occasional pork.


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## soloabe (31 March 2011)

Get this folks.

I had a dog trainer tell me last week that dogs shouldn't be fed pork because they are to closely related to pigs and its practically cannibalistic.

I have to say i laughed in her face.


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## KarynK (1 April 2011)

Wouldn't it be fun to take a pig along to her training sessions????////


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## cellie (1 April 2011)

katielou said:



			Get this folks.

I had a dog trainer tell me last week that dogs shouldn't be fed pork because they are to closely related to pigs and its practically cannibalistic.

I have to say i laughed in her face.
		
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Was it  said on  1st april


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## soloabe (1 April 2011)

cellie said:



			Was it  said on  1st april 

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Sadly not and she was deadly serious!


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## liveryblues (1 April 2011)

Thanks for clearing that up! I have found a couple of decent farm butchers who are happy to give the bones away, so expense is not a prob  I was worried the pork ribs seemed a bit more splintery? They dont seem to have had an adverse affect on poop or farts lol. (yet) will keep an eye out... and nose 
Just wanted to add that I am so glad I made the push to go raw. The pup's coat has such a shine and the older two are looking glossier too. They all seem to have more .. Vitality for want of a better word  I know I sound like a corny advert lol but really am over the moon to be free of processed dog food and all the nasty unknowns hidden in it


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## KarynK (1 April 2011)

Yeah Another convert !!!  It's a big first step but if you can get over it you and the doggies never look back, even if they are cannibals when eating their piggie cousins!!!


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## Cinnamontoast (4 April 2011)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...m-dog-saves-baby-pigs-bacon-adopting-own.html

Don't eat the little piggies!


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## KarynK (6 April 2011)

Only really a snack at that size!!!   

How cute, bet mum is probably not fed raw though??  Mind you that lioness in Africa adopted a oryx calf  several times.   http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/1905363.stm  Strange!


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## Toffee44 (26 April 2011)

Will is on raw now! He hadnt eaten for 4days originally thought because he was at a friends while we were away. Hasnt eaten two days here and he kept wining when feeding the other two. Old but cunning!


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## Cinnamontoast (26 April 2011)

What nice things were the others getting that he wanted?

I'm sad that Brig is refusing to eat even tripe, his favourite, currently. I've put him back on Orijen and Wainwrights. He's always been fussy and refused lots of things like offal, lung etc but now turning up his nose at even 'nice' stuff! Pups eat anything (except weirdly, Zak doesn't like celery!)


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## Toffee44 (1 May 2011)

Question. Have been given load of pig offal from organic farm I seperated lung, kidney, liver and hearts. However in month or so I have been doing this I have not yet fed liver other than what they would have out of rabbits. The liver is quite big. Do I chop up give half each or is that still too much?


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## KarynK (1 May 2011)

Liver is quite big and very rich, what size are the dogs?  Mine usually only have a little as they hate it and I have to flash fry it, but my old girl used to have about 1lb of offal for a feed.


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## Toffee44 (1 May 2011)

Labs and Dylan 6 months whose about  lab size atm. So they haven't had offal for 2 weeks, which was kidney, they have had whole rabbit but thats it. I feel I have the type  of dogs who eat anything so hope I don't have too cook it.


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## Cinnamontoast (2 May 2011)

Toffee44 said:



			Question. Have been given load of pig offal from organic farm I seperated lung, kidney, liver and hearts. However in month or so I have been doing this I have not yet fed liver other than what they would have out of rabbits. The liver is quite big. Do I chop up give half each or is that still too much?
		
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The purist's ratio is 10% bone, 10% offal, 80% meat (this is the recommended ratio but I personally don't worry about too exact measurements: if you're happy raw feeding, then your main way of judging might be the state of poo!). 

I'd start slowly with liver as it's very rich. My pups have probably about 100 grammes a couple of times a week, maybe more. They have roughly 600 g a day altogether.


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## Toffee44 (2 May 2011)

I didn't weigh it as dropped scales gave them about a carrot sized piece they swallowed it whole I think. Lol.


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## Cinnamontoast (3 May 2011)

Fab if they ate it, my adult dog won't. When I get a load of offal, I divide into bags (enough for the two who will eat it) and freeze until required. One way of doing it is to bag up meal sized amounts, ready mixed with whatever you feed, makes sense and saves time.


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## Toffee44 (28 May 2011)

Will has put on 1kg in two weeks since starting raw completly. Vet wasn't keen because of his age but turns out he's doing rather way.


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## Oberon (24 June 2011)

I am still in the research phase at the moment.

I have some questions.....

I have two big dogs. Could anyone give me a breakdown of what they feed.

(I know it's been done already on this thread, but I'd like another view)

And how much would it cost on average?


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## blackcob (24 June 2011)

An individual meal for one of my 26kg dogs would be one of the following:

3 chicken wings
2 chicken drumsticks
1-2 chicken thighs
1/4-1/2 a chicken carcass
300g beef or lamb mince
300g tripe
2 pork ribs
1/2 a breast of lamb
1-1 and a 1/2 lamb's hearts
1-1 and a 1/2 lamb's neck/scrag end
1-2 joints of rabbit dependent on size
1/4-1/2 a pheasant
1 tin oily fish
1/2-1 trout
1 handful sprat/whitebait type things
1 mackerel
250g Fish4Dogs kibble with 1 pouch cooked salmon mousse

Plus small pieces of raw liver as and when they'll take it (50p sized bits a couple of times a week), the odd kidney, small amounts of cooked meat scraps and cooked vegetables, dried tripe sticks, pig's ears, live yoghurt/probiotic culture, marrowbones with a decent amount of marrow and meat scraps on, tuna cake for training. Also a zinc supplement but that's breed-specific. 

They have two meals a day and average out to about 650g a day per dog. 

As a rough guide anything under £3 per kg is acceptable in my eyes, most of the above are well below that and a lot of it is free (marrowbones always free, I get turkey carcasses and wings by the sackful at Christmas again totally free, butcher will sling in a piece of liver or a couple of hearts if it's the end of the day and they can't be offered for sale the next). Make friends with a butcher! I don't imagine I spend much more than £10 a week and could do it a lot cheaper if I had a chest freezer to buy in bulk.


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## Cinnamontoast (24 June 2011)

My two have about 600g a day of:

whole rabbit minced
Lamb tripe
Beef chunks
Chicken mince
Economy mince (feels like lung)
Raw meaty bones
Chicken wings 
Liver
Heart
All of the above are between 35p-75p a pound, I think
Lamb breast £1 a pound

Does this help? I use the company below mostly, but getting matey with your butcher, as Blackcob says, is very handy. 

I went down Edgeware High Street a couple of weeks ago, superb, they had everything like trotters, fish heads, brains, pig heads, tails, ears, all fresh. 
http://www.thedogfoodcompany.co.uk/products.html


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## Oberon (25 June 2011)

Thank you very much - please keep them coming.

I have another question. Chicken wings for my two (large dogs) are not recommended according to advice.

But - I have fed 'frozzie chops' in the past as a treat....these are frozen chicken pieces from supermarket. My two loved them still frozen.

Is it OK to feed this way occasionally?


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## Cinnamontoast (25 June 2011)

Yes, you can occasionally feed frozen as long as the dog is not himself freezing/cold. Chicken wings should actually be ok, as long as they don't gulp them down in one.


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## Toffee44 (26 June 2011)

I feed turkey wings and drummers to my boy after Dylan scared himself with a chicken wing. I do feed whole chickens or legs tho as they seem to eat them differently.


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## Oberon (30 June 2011)

OK, I'm on Day 3 of Raw.

They're on chicken pieces for the week.

Inuit thinks all his birthdays have come at once......old dog...hmmm not so sure.

She's shy of chewing, even though vet says her teeth aren't too bad.

I'm not convinced she's eaten for last two days as she buries the chicken and Inuit goes and digs it up and eats it.

I gave her chicken breast today and she was happy with that and has eaten it.

But she needs bone - what do I do? Would commercial food be better for her?


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## CorvusCorax (30 June 2011)

Do you know any greyhound men? They could help you source a good producer of a mix of meat and bones - some butchers will make a ground mix of meat, will mince bones through it, tripe and even fish through it. Stinks but it is great for them!


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## kirstyl (30 June 2011)

Oberon said:



			OK, I'm on Day 3 of Raw.

They're on chicken pieces for the week.

Inuit thinks all his birthdays have come at once......old dog...hmmm not so sure.

She's shy of chewing, even though vet says her teeth aren't too bad.

I'm not convinced she's eaten for last two days as she buries the chicken and Inuit goes and digs it up and eats it.

I gave her chicken breast today and she was happy with that and has eaten it.

But she needs bone - what do I do? Would commercial food be better for her?
		
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Hi, oh the stress these animals put us through!

My dog is just the same with chicken wings, she buries them and doesn't seem that keen to go back to them, and you can't really leave raw meat lying around in your garden for days on end. I feed her Naturediet packs once a day (moist meat,rice + veg) and then for the other meal she has either baked potato or brown rice,raw chopped veg and sardines in oil or raw mince or chopped chicken and I get her raw bones from the butcher. Is working well for her and she is enjoying eating which she wasn't with the raw chicken wings. They're all different I suppose!


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## Oberon (30 June 2011)

I've just walked them and she's passed some bone - so she must have eaten some of the chicken pieces.

Is it OK to wizz them in a blender for her?

She's always been a '4 poops per walk' mutt and I'm LOVING the 'one small poop' dog - so I'd really like to stick with it.

I don't mind blending - as I was going to buy a new blender for my new kitchen anyway - so she can use the old one.


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## CorvusCorax (30 June 2011)

That sounds fine (I also love the one or two small poops a day )


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## Toffee44 (30 June 2011)

I would keep going. Do you unfold the wing? How about offerring a beef rib. See what she thinks of that. 

I don't understand fussy dogs. Mine don't do fussy. One ate a whole liver once and there are people on here who can't get dog to eat them. Only tine I had a fussy dog was when two were raw and one was kibble because of his age I didn't switch (15yrs) he's now raw can't even get him to eat tinned meat!


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## Oberon (30 June 2011)

Inuit will eat anything.

But the old girl has been shy of chewing things for the last few years.

She's even careful when yawning not to open her mouth too wide - vet just thought it was inflammed ligaments and gave her a course of NSAIDS, which she loved but didn't last forever.


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## CorvusCorax (1 July 2011)

Cooked bones are the danger, raw bones are much safer and raw chicken bones especially are much more softer and malleable


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## Oberon (1 July 2011)

Just an update to say the old girl led down and cracked on with eating the chicken wings this morning with no fuss - phew!

Re getting started on an Raw diet, I have found this resource to be very helpful.

http://preymodelraw.com/how-to-get-started/

I'm only on day 4 of Raw, so no expert but,

From what I have learned in the last couple of weeks, there are two fractions of raw feeders....

The BARF people who believe dogs are omnivores and need raw bones mixed with raw veggies, supplements and fruit.

And the Raw Prey people, who believe dogs are carnivores and only need raw meat and bones. They have a ratio of what bone, muscle and organ meat should be fed and following the dog's stools advises you on how they're doing.

I am with the latter myself. Looking at my dogs teeth suggest they don't need cabbage to survive!

Golden rule is not to feed weight bearing bones of large animals (like beef) as they are too hard for teeth.

Chicken pieces (like the frozen bags in the supermarket) is a good place to start.


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## Cinnamontoast (1 July 2011)

Blending bones is all very well but part of the point of raw is to give bones for them to clean their teeth by breaking them up themselves. Some companies offer raw minces with ground up bone, so all good, but I give lamb breast, pork ribs, pig trotters, chicken wings, all whole. 

The ratio is 10:10:80 bone offal meat if you go for prey model. I give whole carcasses of chicken and whole rabbits. 

I'm appalled at the vet saying chicken bones will pierce the dog. You do have to hold bones to start with so a dog new to it gets the idea of not swallowing whole. 

I think vets get a day or so on nutrition for all animals, so they're not brilliant at the feeding and are sponsored to sell Science Plan, not a stunning feed.


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## Toffee44 (3 July 2011)

My vet said he only supports and understands raw as that is what he feeds. Infact he said it was best thing for Will since his weightloss. They only way I can get him to eat vitalin is to soak in watery blood. Yuck


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## Oberon (6 July 2011)

Just to update.

I've been feeding Raw a week now.

They've been having exclusive chicken peices from Sainsbury's. 

Not the cheapest, but as we're sticking with chicken pieces to introduce it, it won't be as cheap as the 15kg sacks of kibble for £12

Salem (inuit with rash) is barely scratching any more and thinks every meal is Christmas

Xara (the old dog with the sore jaw and 4 poops per walk issue) is happily eating the bones now as long as she is outside and left alone for as long as she needs (Salem would steal her dinner if he was allowed to). She is pooping only twice per walk. She has a bit of breast added to the next meal if she seems a bit too firm. 

They've had a couple of tins of fish in tomato added to chicken pieces for a meal and this has also gone well.

They've had chicken this morning and I'm going to give some pork this afternoon for the first time.

It's been amazingly easy so far. Salem vomited a couple of times in the first days, but not since. Xara has vomited a three times. But I'm not panicking as I understand it can happen at first while they get used to digesting something new.

The information I have gleaned from all the online resources linked on here has been key.

Going slowly and just feeding chicken for the first week, has made everything kinder on the dog's system and much easier on me emotionally!


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## Oberon (6 July 2011)

Would also like to add that before - picking up poop was a chore.

Now it's something I look forward to as it gives me information and reassurance!


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## KarynK (11 July 2011)

Well done so far, but now you need to try and source the chicken from somewhere where you can get it cheaper, Chicken factory, local butcher, market butcher or buy in bulk from a supplier as supermarket stuff can work out expensive if you are feeding a few dogs.


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## Cinnamontoast (11 July 2011)

Oberon, where you based? I can think of three companies that deliver raw around the south or north. Maybe pm me with a vague location if you like. 


http://rawtogo.co.uk/ Abergavenny, Wales, delivers nationwide via courier, leaves delivery outside if necessary in polystyrene so doesn't defrost.


http://www.thedogfoodcompany.co.uk/ Delivers south of Lincolnshire. Truly fab, IMO. Keep phoning/emailing til you get an answer. Based in Suffolk. I use him, I'm in Watford. 

http://www.daf-petfood.co.uk/wb/ Durham/north east and Sittingbourne, weirdly.


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## Oberon (13 July 2011)

Blackpool.

I have got pally with a local, dog loving, butcher so hopefully should get some cheaper cuts.

Would appreciate all suggestions as I am struggling financially right now.

I've introduced pork and they had (seared) chicken livers the other day.

Turkey drums tonight. Yum!


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## Cinnamontoast (13 July 2011)

Google your nearest abattoir and go make eyes at them. Talk to all your local butchers. Phone Rawtogo: nationwide delivery. Find a greyhound trainers or large breeding kennels. 

Life is much easier if you get a cheap freezer and stock up.


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## jasmine (19 July 2011)

I just wondered if anyone knew where i could buy chicken feet from either in the west midlands or by post.

Thanks.


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## Cinnamontoast (20 July 2011)

jasmine said:



			I just wondered if anyone knew where i could buy chicken feet from either in the west midlands or by post.

Thanks.
		
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Dried or fresh? I've seen dried on eBay.


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## jasmine (20 July 2011)

Yikes!!!!!! the fresh ones are scary things, i cant imagine how horrid the dried ones would look 

Fresh ones please CT


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## Cinnamontoast (21 July 2011)

jasmine said:



			Yikes!!!!!! the fresh ones are scary things, i cant imagine how horrid the dried ones would look 

Fresh ones please CT 

Click to expand...

Then maybe a decent butcher? I saw them in the Irish Family Butcher in Burnt Oak near me the other day. I'm not sure why you're after them, tho, really. There's no meat, they're small? I'd rather a wing or carcass.


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## jasmine (21 July 2011)

I have found a halhal butcher who can get them for me  

CT, Elliot has slightly weak pasterns and the chicken feet are good for this


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## Cinnamontoast (21 July 2011)

Have you tried Pooch and Mutt Mobile Bones? I'm hearing great things about it.


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## CorvusCorax (21 July 2011)

Jasmine I am still waiting for my consignment of turkey feet! Have you tried any local farmers? I am feeding Vit C tabs at East Kent's suggestion and codliver oil, and that SA37 powder that was recommended to me is now called S50 or SA50 or something, MurphysMinder tells me


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## jasmine (21 July 2011)

CC, turkey feet will be pretty big  I will have a look for the powder.

Just to add, Elliot had the chicken feet for about a fortnight (one every two days) and you could already see an improvement in his pasterns


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## CorvusCorax (21 July 2011)

Yeah, definitely going to look into it, I am hanging on to the fact that his dad's feet are the same and he has had five years of work and has managed! 
The vet put the wind up me the other night by saying there was quite a lot of movement in his cruciates but then a Sheppy person told me to stop panicking, he IS only six months old  had him swimming tonight for a little while so hopefully that will help too when he is old enough to do more


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## jasmine (24 July 2011)

Picked up the chicken feet today, Elliot will have one every two days.  Possibly for about six - eight weeks.


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## Cinnamontoast (24 July 2011)

jasmine said:



			Picked up the chicken feet today, Elliot will have one every two days.  Possibly for about six - eight weeks.
		
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FFS, we need a like button!


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## Oberon (25 July 2011)

We're now into a month of raw feeding.

Both dogs have adjusted happily. Salem rarely itches now and old Xara has a spring in her step!

We're feeding chicken wings, ox heart and various free ribs from a butcher.

Plan is to add more meat and some organ soon.

I tried chicken liver (5% of diet ratio) and neither would eat them until I seared them.

I have no kitchen for the next 2 weeks, so any further plans need to wait until then.

I will be able to facilitate a spare freezer once the kitchen rebuilt, so worth the wait.

Had to carve up ox hearts in the garden the other morning. Frightened my neighbour's daughter with the huge knife and gore......

Managed to get the costs to around £35 a week so far, but that should drop when I can get the freezer and bulk buy.

I tried raw fish the other week - cue fish vomits all night on the carpet - yikes!


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## Oberon (25 July 2011)

They seem to be happy enough.....


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## Cinnamontoast (26 July 2011)

Costs me about £4 a week per dog (big freezer).

Re fish, mine were bad to start with. I feed them sprats (2 per meal) and tinned sardines/pilchards or very bland white fish now.


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## Toffee44 (26 July 2011)

Don't ever try to defrost tripe (green) in microwave....that is all.


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## CorvusCorax (26 July 2011)

Wow, I thought keeping it in the freezer in the house was anti-social 

(I like to feed it frozen sometimes, keeps the wee sod busy )


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## MydnightShadow (27 July 2011)

I have been feeding RAW for a few months now via Natural Instinct (word of mouth from Ringcraft and friends on the Border Collie Show circuit).  Reading all this I can see that I am going to find it much more affordable if I start sourcing at least some meals elsewhere!!

I have 2 questions from what I am finding from my 2 dogs:

1) They sometimes seem slightly constipated (my bitch also had to have her anal glands emptied) what would people suggest to help?

2) Chatting to the lady at Natural Instinct when I was there the other day she said never to feed pork raw.  It is the one meat they don't sell in meal or bone form.  Why do you think this would be?

Thanks in advance!!


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## Oberon (27 July 2011)

I've no problem with pork. 

Bacteria wouldn't bother a dog's stomach and parasites are killed when meat is frozen first.

Constipation is usually a sign of too much bone and not enough meat content.

My old girl is merrily eating chicken wings, but being a pain with the ox heart - so she is constipated at the moment.


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## Oberon (27 July 2011)

cinammontoast said:



			Costs me about £4 a week per dog (big freezer).

Re fish, mine were bad to start with. I feed them sprats (2 per meal) and tinned sardines/pilchards or very bland white fish now.
		
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I'll stick with the pilchards in sauce - we're safe with them

I totally fail to see how you get it down to £4 per dog?


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## Toffee44 (27 July 2011)

I spend about £35 a month on three dogs. 

From Landywoods I buy

2 bags of tripe chunks
2 bags of chicken chunks
2 bags of turkey wings
1 bag of poultry necks


from the butchers I get 
2kg of carcass a week about 50p-£1/free depending on what butcher serves me lol. They have a carcass alongside chunks of tripe or chicken.
Bag of rib bones 50p


From our friend I get free pork (organic pig farmer)

Pigs head- they have this once a week and have a fatty day and normally have a starve day or just a token feed the next, they dont get walked the day they have pigs head as the literally pig out and spend the rest of the day sleeping and digesting

Trotters-Will gets one every day 

Tails-treats, Dylan swallows them whole 

Offal-heart, lungs, kidney, airway. I tend to give this to them each as and entire piece still together, they get walked in the morning nd then have this for the evening. They have this maybe once a fortnight as it is a lot of offal.


Only Teal has ever had tapeworm but Dylan and Will didn't, so I dont think it was from the pork more likely the manky things he finds when out on a walk.


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## Cinnamontoast (27 July 2011)

I don't worry about pork. If you do worry, freeze for two weeks before feeding. 

Bone is supposed to stop Amal glands being a problem according to other raw feeders. I have no idea if this is true or not. 



Oberon said:



			I'll stick with the pilchards in sauce - we're safe with them

I totally fail to see how you get it down to £4 per dog?
		
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Per week, this is.

Green tripe is 35p for 454g/lb. So that's enough for one dog per day. Multiply by 7 equals £2.45. Obviously, they have a huge variety of meat, offal, bone and some things are more expensive. Chicken wings are 97p a kilo so under 50p a day if I'm feeding mostly bone one day. (My lot eat about 4-600g a day. I feed by eye and 600g is the max they should have for breed standard/actual weight average of both.)

I spent a ruddy fortune when I first started on raw. My advice to anyone thinking about it is source before you start and make eyes at the butcher.


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## Oberon (31 July 2011)

Managed £20 this week (4 Ox hearts, 2 bags of chicken wings and a bag of boney icky bits for free).
It's getting cheaper each time I go to the butcher - and this week I name dropped my family - who've  owned the business next door to the butcher for many years

Then I spent £3 for a bag of frozen tripe from Pets at Home to start them on.

Can't WAIT till I have a kitchen again and then can have another freezer......I can get some organs from Landywoods then.

I've bought some Cod Liver Oil to give them as I'm scared of trying raw fish again after the Fish4Vomit experience last week.

I'm panic ing about Vitamin E now - I'm hearing from the net that they need it???


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## Flint1990 (31 July 2011)

MydnightShadow said:



			I have been feeding RAW for a few months now via Natural Instinct (word of mouth from Ringcraft and friends on the Border Collie Show circuit).  Reading all this I can see that I am going to find it much more affordable if I start sourcing at least some meals elsewhere!!

I have 2 questions from what I am finding from my 2 dogs:

1) They sometimes seem slightly constipated (my bitch also had to have her anal glands emptied) what would people suggest to help?

2) Chatting to the lady at Natural Instinct when I was there the other day she said never to feed pork raw.  It is the one meat they don't sell in meal or bone form.  Why do you think this would be?

Thanks in advance!!
		
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In answer to question (1) Fibre


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## Flint1990 (31 July 2011)

Just to throw it out there....

Dogs can live a very happy healthy life on a vegitarian diet...

So this begs the question if your feeding just meat and bones where do they get the rest of their nutrients from?


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## CorvusCorax (31 July 2011)

I stand to be corrected but I understand from other posters that fibre for a dog is fur and feather, not things like Weetabix or All Bran   
Nutrients a dog needs are not the same as nutrients we need.
I feed tripe, chicken wings, a dry food as a training aid and oily fish to my young dog and he eats plenty of grass 
My older dog is on a dry 'complete' food and also eats lots of grass.

Also, I am not doubting the vegetarian thing, I am sure my older dog could thrive on a vegetarian diet (in fact, that's pretty much what he does eat) as he is intolerant to high levels of protein.
Better vegetarian than some types of dog food


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## Cinnamontoast (1 August 2011)

But why the heck would you feed your dog a vegetarian diet?! There's a girl on another forum talking about this, but IMO, if you have dogs, it's only fair to feed them as properly as possible.


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## CorvusCorax (1 August 2011)

Better than B*****  TBH a lot of the cheaper brand foods have more grain in them than meat content so it is swings and roundabouts really.
As mentioned previously, my older dog tore all his hair out and scratched until he bled on the raw diet, yeah maybe in time he would have adapted but I am never putting him through that again. He was truly miserable.


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## Oberon (2 August 2011)

Bit confused why a vegetarian angle has been introduced into a Raw diet thread, but ok.....


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## davisn (2 August 2011)

Regarding dogs vomiting on raw fish - I had this problem with Dylan when I first tried him on whole oily fish. He used to swallow whole & then chuck it up at least 3 times & re eat it, nice.

I tried giving it to him frozen so he had to gnaw it like a bone - success, problem solved. Might be worth a try.


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## Slinkyunicorn (2 August 2011)

My two reguritate and re eat oily fish especially - they have it in the morning so it the regurgitating happens in the garden!!

As daviesn says I think its the speed they eat it - but that is how they are designed to digest it - it is probably linked to the oil and bone content - but by regurgitating it they are breaking it down into more easily digested parts

No one said dogs don't have disgusting habits


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## Oberon (2 August 2011)

Wouldn't mind if they actually re-ate it. But alas, the old girl found a rare bit of carpet in our house and left it there for hubby to stand in, and me to clean.......


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## Oberon (4 August 2011)

I am still wondering about Vit E?

Should I supplement it?


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## Toffee44 (5 August 2011)

Oberon Katie Lou can prob answer that question for you. 
But the understanding I have, is that if you a are following a prey model aka animal parts, organs etc you don't need to supplement the diet. 

I may stand corrected. I do at times feel that I have not researched this diet enough to feed it however I then have to remember that dogs in the wild cope very well. 
Think of the strays that cope very well etc they dont get supplemented this and that and have complete diets shoved infront of them. 


Maybe I am just naive but I feel I am doing the best for my dogs feeding as much whole prey as poss (rabbit, pheaseant, whole chickens feathers and combs attached) and then animal parts on top(tripe, turkey wings, necks, pork all parts, a fishy day a week which is whatever may be in bargin bin plus a frozen sardine or two) . Mine always have a munch on grass and help themselves to fruit they find (apples, pears, strawberries in this garden).


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## liveryblues (6 August 2011)

Hi Just wanted to double check the meat to bone ratio for raw? I switched to feeding raw about 6 months ago and after abit of trial & error! mine all now exsist pretty much on chicken carcasses. My butcher bones all his own chickens so I get t all for free . They are peppered with bits of chicken legs, wing tips, thigh bones & skin. I also buy offal... giblets,necks and ox cheek, tounge, liver, heart which they get once every week or two.
So doing a bit of extra reading lately I find that the recommended bone should make up 10-20% of the diet, the rest being muscle meat( heart, liver,meat etc)
Mine al get a much higher proportion.... They all look very healthy, no constipation( dry-ish nougaty poo) they get a chicken carcass am & pm 90% of the time. 
Tell me I havent got it wrong???


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## soloabe (6 August 2011)

Oberon said:



			I am still wondering about Vit E?

Should I supplement it?
		
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Honestly in a day to day basis i wouldn't bother.

If your really that worried about it i would go with a multi vitamin.


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## soloabe (6 August 2011)

liveryblues said:



			Hi Just wanted to double check the meat to bone ratio for raw? I switched to feeding raw about 6 months ago and after abit of trial & error! mine all now exsist pretty much on chicken carcasses. My butcher bones all his own chickens so I get t all for free . They are peppered with bits of chicken legs, wing tips, thigh bones & skin. I also buy offal... giblets,necks and ox cheek, tounge, liver, heart which they get once every week or two.
So doing a bit of extra reading lately I find that the recommended bone should make up 10-20% of the diet, the rest being muscle meat( heart, liver,meat etc)
Mine al get a much higher proportion.... They all look very healthy, no constipation( dry-ish nougaty poo) they get a chicken carcass am & pm 90% of the time. 
Tell me I havent got it wrong???
		
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Yes the recommended amount is 10-20% and i wouldn't be comfortable feeding more than that on a regular basis.

They also need much more than chicken. They need red meat. 
You strart them on chicken then they should be introduced slowly to other and chicken will eventually make up maybe 1/3 of their diet.

Chicken is actually pretty low on the nutritional scale for dogs.


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## Oberon (6 August 2011)

katielou said:



			Honestly in a day to day basis i wouldn't bother.

If your really that worried about it i would go with a multi vitamin.
		
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Thank you. I was reading a Yahoo group, but I've unsubscribed as they were making me more confused!


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## liveryblues (6 August 2011)

katielou said:



			Yes you can feed bone every meal as long at its about the correct ratio of bone to meat. If they get to firm just down the bone content a bit.

It really is a by eye thing 

Pork is to rich for mine the only pork product they get is feet occasionally.

Chicken, turkey and offal make up 99% of my dogs diet.

Lamb is sooo expensive here so they generally just get the recreational lamb bones once a month but no real meat.

*Chicken is one of the best meaty bones for all they key nutrients, it's easy to source, the bones are not to hard and it will be high in essential fatty acids and key amino acids, where some lean red meat's aren't as good. Basically a diet of mostly raw meaty bones (80% bone to meat) of chicken, lamb an occasional bit of pork, some offal once or twice a week and eggs provide everything a dog needs in abundance and in the correct ratios*.(another quote from a forum member)

So the above is incorrect?? I am really confused, some seem to say they feed 90+% of chicken, turkey as its cheap , others say red meat?? which is it 

Click to expand...


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## soloabe (6 August 2011)

It should be a mix of everything. 
The above is incorrect to a point. I fed more chicken then I did then because I was going on what the main stream raw feeding stuff says.

Since I have been in school I have done a massive amount of research on where my dogs should be getting what from and the conclusion is that they need red meat.

They still don't get pork because they just don't like it. Lamb is to expensive.
The only thing I have added is cuts of beef and the occasional exotic meat.
They were already getting beef organs as I said above that includes tripe and tongue.
They also get venison when hunting season is here.


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## soloabe (6 August 2011)

I will link you to some of the new researched raw lit when I get home. Can't do it from my phone


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## liveryblues (6 August 2011)

Thank you  Does ox heart, ox cheek, pig/ox/lamb liver count as red meat?? or is separate as it is offal?


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## Cinnamontoast (6 August 2011)

Basic ratio is 10:10:80, bone, offal, meat. I vary what I give, but two of my staples are green tripe and chicken, bone, meat, carcass. They don't really tolerate beef, but they get fish, pork, anything I can find, really.


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## soloabe (7 August 2011)

I count it as yes to a point.


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## Cinnamontoast (7 August 2011)

liveryblues said:



			Thank you  Does ox heart, ox cheek, pig/ox/lamb liver count as red meat?? or is separate as it is offal?
		
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Liver is offal, heart and cheek are meat. Morrison's sell diced ox heart.


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## Oberon (7 August 2011)

One of the reasons we went Raw was because Salem (Utonagan x Inuit) always been itchy and had rashes to his armpits and belly.

The itching is much better in the last 5 weeks we have been raw - but the dark skin and rashes remain.

His armpits are itchy, not painful, but just raw meat today. 

Now - he DID have his first professional Dog Wash on Wednesday, that is a different thing from routine. 

Before I see the Vet about it, I'd like to do more dietery changes.

I know they need more oily fish in their diet. I'll be giving them tinned in tomato sauce for now.

Is there anything else I should do?

Are there any meats they should be avoiding? - at the moment they are on chicken, ox heart, pork belly  and I've started kidney this week.


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## CorvusCorax (7 August 2011)

Five weeks is no time to recover from skin irritation - my fella still has blacky-blue areas from his last 'outbreak' which was over a year ago. He still has raw areas, one on his belly and under his armpits but they are calm, just don't know if the hair will ever come back, it is back everywhere else (he was bald from his chin right down his belly, inner arms and thighs  )


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## Cinnamontoast (7 August 2011)

Oberon, I'd be tempted for a medicated wash and some Dermacton cream, I keep hearing great things about it. I'm gonna get some for the horse's mud fever-bloody persistent. 

http://www.aromesse.com/skin-proble...dermacton-cream-spray-shampoo-dog-canine.html


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## Oberon (11 August 2011)

Side effect of the Raw diet.....

Friend of mine was showing me pictures of her beloved hens....

Guess what my response was?????

OOpps!


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## Cinnamontoast (11 August 2011)

Oberon said:



			Side effect of the Raw diet.....

Friend of mine was showing me pictures of her beloved hens....

Guess what my response was?????

OOpps!
		
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Bad Oberon, naughty! 

I'm exactly the same: a friend took on a rabbit because her friend no longer wanted it but it's a nightmare with her own rabbit. Guess what my offer was?! 

I'm now obsessed with raw meat: had a very interesting conversation with the butcher who was offering pigs' heads for £5 while a family stood by gaping in shock.


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## Toffee44 (12 August 2011)

cinammontoast said:



			Bad Oberon, naughty! 

I'm exactly the same: a friend took on a rabbit because her friend no longer wanted it but it's a nightmare with her own rabbit. Guess what my offer was?! 

I'm now obsessed with raw meat: had a very interesting conversation with the butcher who was offering pigs' heads for £5 while a family stood by gaping in shock. 

Click to expand...

£5 is expensive I know i get them for nothings but even my butcher does them at £1.50 each (£1 for half a pigs head as apparantly thats what most people buy!!!).


I too am obsessed always looking int he bargin bins at the shops and butchers.

Have to say I love the peoples reactions, Dylan greeted the post man with a pigs lungs and airway, luckily he thought it was great and said that his dog would be v v jealous.


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## Oberon (12 August 2011)

LOL!

I hit the butcher at the right time today and managed to score 2kg bones for free.

They are happily chewing on a rib each and thoroughly enjoying themselves....

And this is the old girl who wouldn't chew anything a month ago.....


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## CorvusCorax (12 August 2011)

Noice!

Our butcher has just taken to leaving a bag on the doorstep on his way between shops because my mother and I torture him


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## Oberon (20 August 2011)

So I'm into a routine of pork belly/shoulder, lamb breast but mostly ox heart.

Fish is in the form of tinned pilchards in tomato sauce (still not been brave enough to try fresh again).

Bones is whatever the butcher has got (except beef leg, obviously).

Liver is chicken livers, seared.

The problem I am having is finding the 5% of organs.

The butchers only have kidneys, which I've been using the least couple of weeks.

If I order from Durham Animal Feeds (the only ones who'll deliver to Blackpool), I can get pancreas and kidney.

Is this enough variety?

I'm stumped as to where I'd get lungs from??


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## Toffee44 (21 August 2011)

Lungs get from farm shops that do their own meat or see if theres any organic farms around you etc.


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## Cinnamontoast (21 August 2011)

Oberon said:



			So I'm into a routine of pork belly/shoulder, lamb breast but mostly ox heart.

Bones is whatever the butcher has got (except beef leg, obviously).

Liver is chicken livers, seared.

I'm stumped as to where I'd get lungs from??
		
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I don't think lung is essential.

Pig kidney and liver is easily got from Morrisons, as is the ox heart.


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## CorvusCorax (24 August 2011)

Interesting fact: A pack of Tesco kidneys fits exactly into an XL Kong!!!


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## CorvusCorax (24 August 2011)

Apologies, one packet splits exactly into TWO XL Kongs. Maths is not my strong point. Lamb kidneys, BTW!


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## soloabe (24 August 2011)

I've been trying to post my links on here for a while.
Anyway i suggest looking at the orijen white paper (which i know is biased but has good info)
Does anyone have the book "raw meaty bones"? I lent mine out and it has a index of reserch papers in the back which is where most of my info came from. *looks into buying a new copy*


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## soloabe (24 August 2011)

I saw this on another forum a few days ago so tonight we are trying out a stoumach juice slop meal. Wish me luck :O


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## milo'n'molly (29 August 2011)

*Numpty question alert*

those who feel whole rabbit, i guess these rabbits have been shot, what do you do about the shot?


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## Cinnamontoast (29 August 2011)

I should think it passes through quite nicely! Think the bunnies I get are farmed.


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## Toffee44 (30 August 2011)

Bunnies I get are ferreted.

I find that I freeze them for a couple of weeks because of tapeworm, but if they are not frozen I just gut them first. 


I do have to worm mine 3 monthly as they do eat minging stuff out on walks! And trust me seeing tapeworm hanging out your dogs butt, picking at it thinking what is that and then realising puts you off your tea for the evening.


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## CorvusCorax (30 August 2011)

Thanks, Toffee


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## Cinnamontoast (1 September 2011)

New supplier in Dorset, says they will deliver nationwide. Nurturingbynature.co.uk: website not ready, but they're on Facebook.


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## Oberon (1 September 2011)

cinammontoast said:



			New supplier in Dorset, says they will deliver nationwide. Nurturingbynature.co.uk: website not ready, but they're on Facebook.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for that, I'll have a look.

Mentioned I feed Raw to vet today and she didn't spontaneously combust - so that's a good sign.....


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## Oberon (1 September 2011)

Forgot to add....got Salem weighed....he's 64kg! He should be 55kg ish.....

Looks like he's doing a little too well on the Raw diet - even when I calculated his ration as 2% of 50kg!

Diet time.......


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## Cinnamontoast (1 September 2011)

Prices for that new supplier:

At the moment we have available:

100% Minced, ground Chicken (meat, cartilage & bone) 400g 61p 700g £1.05

Minced Chicken & Turkey (Chicken meat, cartilage, bone & Turkey muscle meat) 400g 83p 700g n/a

Minced Chicken & Beef Liver (Chicken meat, cartilage, bone & beef liver) 400g 91p 700g n/a

Minced Chicken & Pork Liver (Chicken meat, cartilage, bone & beef liver) 400g 87p 700g n/a

Minced Chicken & Chicken Heart (Chicken meat, cartilage, bone & hearts) 400g 95p 700g £1.59

Minced Chicken & Oily Fish (Chicken meat, cartilage, bone & whole fish) 400g £1.15 700g £2.04

Minced Chicken & Lamb (Chicken meat, cartilage, bone & lamb muscle meat) 400g £1.39 700g n/a

Minced Chicken & Lamb Offal ( Chicken meat, cartilage & bone & lamb offal) 400g 88p 700g £1.49

Minced Chicken & Lean Beef Tripe (Chicken meat, cartilage, bone & beef tripe) 400g 69p 700g £1.17

Minced Chicken & Lamb Tripe (Chicken meat, cartilage, bone & lamb tripe) 400g 72p 700g n/a

Minced Chicken & Wild Wood Pigeon (Chicken & Pigeon meat, cartilage, bone) 400g £1.05 700g n/a

Minced Chicken & Rabbit (Chicken & Rabbit meat, cartilage, bone & offal) 400g 83p 700g n/a

100% Minced Oily Fish 400g £1.52 700g n/a

100% Minced Lamb Tripe 400g 89p

Bones:

Our current prices for Raw Meaty Bones (and they are meaty!!)

Chicken: 
2 joint wings £1.52/kg
3 joint wings £2.75/kg
Tails £1.04/kg
Backs 89p/kg
15kg box of carcass (frozen) £10

Lamb:
Ribs, Tails, Necks & Leg bones £1.54/kg

Beef:
Recreational bones 56p/kg
Marrowbone £2.21/kg
Tendon chews £2.76/kg

Fish:
Sprats £3.09/kg
Whole trout £3.15/kg

Tripe:
Chunked lean beef tripe 1kg bag £1.58- None in stock at the moment but we may have it next week.
Chunked lamb tripe 1kg bag £1.98 - None in stock at the moment but we may have it next week.

Pork:
Tails, Ears & Trotters £1.82/kg - A few ears still in stock no trotters or tails at the moment.
Pancreas £5.51/kg - Available next week.

Our prices are due for review November 2011.


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## Oberon (1 September 2011)

Why do they all insist on mincing everything?


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## Cinnamontoast (1 September 2011)

ComparIson with the Dog Food Company (Norfolk, delivers most places south of Lincolnshire)

Product	Unit of Sale	Box	Cost
Lamb and Tripe Mix	1 lb	*	42p / lb
Ox Liver	1 lb	*	48p / lb
Ox Heart	1 lb	*	75p / lb
Chicken Wings	1KG	15 KG	97p / Kilo
Chicken Carcasses	-	15 KG	50p / kilo
Tripe (Chunky)	2lb (block)	 40p /lb
Tripe (Green)	1 lb Tube	*	35p /lb
Lamb (Breast)	1 lb rib	*	£1.00 /lb
Mixer (Chudleys)	10 KG	15 KG	POA
Chicken Necks	*	15 KG	75p / kilo
Chicken Mince with bone	1lb	*	33p /lb
economy mince	1lb	*	31p /lb
Whole Rabbit	each	*	£2.00
meaty bones	1lb	*	32p /lb
Mince Beef	TBA	*	75p /lb
Pig Pluck (offal)	2lb bag	7 lb box	74p /lb


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## Oberon (2 September 2011)

Just had a month's worth and extras delivered from Durham Animal Feed...

I have body parts stashed in every corner of the kitchen and shed and 10kg green tripe in the kitchen sink.

FFS - now I need to go buy a chest freezer.

Bloody dogs, bloody Raw.....Kibble was so much easier


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## Cinnamontoast (2 September 2011)

Oberon said:



			Just had a month's worth and extras delivered from Durham Animal Feed...

I have body parts stashed in every corner of the kitchen and shed and 10kg green tripe in the kitchen sink.

FFS - now I need to go buy a chest freezer.

Bloody dogs, bloody Raw.....Kibble was so much easier

Click to expand...

Yeah, stick them on Bakers!  (Not!) I tell you, my kitchen sometimes looks like the scene of a horror film and I nearly chucked at the bunny crunching yesterday.


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## Oberon (2 September 2011)

I've got 20kgs green tripe defrosting in my kitchen (need to wait 24 hours before I can put stuff in the new freezer) but I don't mind - I rather like tripe.

It feels like seaweed, the dogs love it, it isn't gory with blood and I actually like the smell.

It smells like cow pats and reminds me of running through the fields as a kid


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## Cinnamontoast (2 September 2011)

Bleurgh!


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## Oberon (18 September 2011)

Ok, we are three months into raw now.

Salem (Inuit with permanent rash and constant itching) has now stopped scratching altogether. Even more so now that I have stopped feeding chicken to him.

Xara (elderly, mutt) had been very shy of chewing for about a year. Vet had said it could have been inflamed ligaments around her jaw and not to worry :/ . She had terrible breath (even though her teeth weren't too bad) and would never take a piece of food from your hand without investigating it first and deciding if she could chew it or not. She'd be so ginger and obviously frustrated.....

Three months on and she happily chews on big bones and has a big lump of tripe each day. She also loves whole chicken feet. She has her Yumove tablets each day - and nips my fingers in her enthusiasm

Earlier in the thread I posted that I was concerned if she would be able to do Raw because of her jaw issue.

I can't believe the change! She is so much happier and confident. 

And the poops are so much kinder to me. I am delighted


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## Cinnamontoast (19 September 2011)

Hope Cedars sees this re the scratching.

It's fab when they enjoy their food.


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## SmartieBean09 (25 September 2011)

Just thought I would let you all know how great this thread is.

Clydes Daddy (my OH) is so impressed with what he has read, you have managed to claim another convert!

Only the best will do for his pooch!


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## Oberon (25 September 2011)

We have had runny poop all over the kitchen for the last two nights 
	
	
		
		
	


	





Not the best advert for Raw, but I know (because I am fully in charge of what they eat nowadays) that this has happened because I got a free bag of stuff from the local butcher on a whim when I bought us some chicken the other day. It was a bag full of bony bits, skin, fat etc and I lovingly filled their bowls up and watched them enjoy 
	
	
		
		
	


	





I SHOULD have rationed it out and frozen the rest. 
	
	
		
		
	


	





I blamed Salem (younger Inuit) as it looked like his sized poop, so I have fasted him all day (much to Hubby's sorrow). Now I have just got up (I'm on nights) Hubby comes trotting to me to say he witnessed Xara (old dog) having a runny poop outside today and so Salem (his favourite) is innocent 
	
	
		
		
	


	





So they're both having a big lump of bone now, from the freezer, to firm them both up.

Moral of the story is, go slowly and when you hit a problem, there is always something you can do.


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## Ilovefoals (5 October 2011)

I have never heard of this raw diet before. This is a real eye opener for me. Now this might be a stupid question, but when you say raw, do you really mean raw? Do you cook anything? The chicken for example? Doesn't it make them ill if it's not cooked. Also, 2nd stupid question, I was always told that dogs can't have chicken bones as they get stuck in their throats etc etc. Is that rubbish then? Sorry, I sound stupid though I'm really not. I'm just used to always feeding my dog biscuits


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## Oberon (5 October 2011)

No cooking at all.

Feeding raw means the dogs have full access to the nutrients. You start off very slowly, with only chicken for the first two weeks and gradually introduce different meat sources and then (after about a month) you bring in organs and liver (essential for the nutrients).

This slow introduction allows the dog's stomach to develop the correct type of acid in order to be able to digest properly. Dog's stomachs are much more acidic than our - hence they can cope with raw meat and dodgy meat in a way that we can't.

Chicken bones are fine as long as they aren't cooked. They don't get stuck and (once up to scratch) the acid digests the bones nicely. I found bits of bones coming out when we first started raw, but we don't any more.

The Raw diet follows what a wolf would eat. There is a ratio of 80% meat, 10% bone, 5% organ and 5% liver to follow and that is all you need to do.

No fruit/vegetables/cereals required.

I started raw in June and have seen my chronic itcher stop itching and my non-chewing, sore jaw dog happily devour bones. Their poop is tiny now, they don't smell or pass gas  and they are both calm and happy 

I use a company who deliver my order to my door and it costs me £50 - £65 a month for two large dogs. (I could make it much cheaper, but I'm happy to pay that for the convenience).

This way I know exactly what my dogs are eating. Not sure your biscuits can say the same


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## Ilovefoals (6 October 2011)

Thanks oberon. That's really helpful. Can I ask which company you use?


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## Toffee44 (6 October 2011)

Ive been on raw since March, and for two weeks they have been on Skinners as the freezer died. Teal has had a nasty ear infection and Dylan inhales his food again. 

New freezer up and running today


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## Cinnamontoast (6 October 2011)

Ilovefoals said:



			Thanks oberon. That's really helpful. Can I ask which company you use?
		
Click to expand...

Rawtogo based in Wales, delivers nationwide via courier. They do minces and bones. You need to add offal to the minces.

DAF (Durham Animal Feeds) have franchises in Durham  and Kent and elsewhere. No idea about them but have heard good things.

Dog Food Company based in Norfolk, delivers to anywhere south of Lincolnshire. I recommend him, but be persistent contacting him cos he's a one man band and always busy. Cheaper than Rawtogo.

Morrisons are fab for trotters, lamb bones, diced ox heart, whole lamb hearts, pig skin, kidney, liver.


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## Oberon (8 October 2011)

I use Durham Animal Feeds as they deliver to Blackpool. Very happy with them, lovely people.

It's perfectly possible to use local butchers and supermarkets to source your food, but I like the convenience of having what I need delivered, rather than going here, there and everywhere searching for offal as each butcher didn't have enough kidneys for me


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## Ilovefoals (9 October 2011)

Thanks for all the info guys.  Another couple of questions if I may??

We have started mixing a bit of beef mince or chicken with her Burns biscuits. Is that the right way to go about it or should you just go straight from dry food to raw?

She has had some runny poo since introducing the raw meat 2 days ago. Is that normal?

I've ordered some of the chicken mixes from here http://www.naturalinstinct.com/categories/Adult/ but they wont deliver til tues.  So should I just leave her on the Burns til it arrives and start afresh then?

Thanks


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## Oberon (9 October 2011)

It's all or nothing with Raw. Mixing isn't a good idea - kibble and raw digest at different rates and this is where problems occur.

Is the link you put up raw meat or cooked?

If you are wishing to do raw you need to start slow and continue slow. An eight week programme of introducing new meats is needed. The loose stools is you overloading the stomach which isn't ready. The acid in your dog's stomach is set to a certain mix from the kibble - it needs to be trained into another mix for raw (back to what it should be, naturally).

I found this to be invaluable
http://preymodelraw.com/how-to-get-started/

I fed chicken pieces from Sainsbury's for the first two weeks.
Week 3 - added pork
Week 4 - added fish (tinned at first)
Week 5 - added turkey 
Week6 - added beef
Week 7 - added liver
Week 8 - added kidneys.

All the while using chicken alongside. The first few months are 'bone heavy' to stave off and loose stools (hence the chicken).

You may find a little vomiting and bones in poop for first two weeks. Again, this is while the stomach acid is still in training.

I can't stress how important it is to go slowly at first - people find problems when they get enthusiastic and rush. And the dog gets sick because of it.


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## Ilovefoals (9 October 2011)

Thanks oberon, great link!  The food in the link I put up is all raw.  I think until it comes on tues, I'll feed her the chicken pieces I have bought and cut out the kibble altogether. Does that sound ok?  Then I can get into a regime like you have above from tues.  Many thanks


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## Oberon (9 October 2011)

Good luck - just KEEP IT SLOW

There is a very active couple of Yahoo groups on the subject too - rather militant, but handy for advice when needed...

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/ (larger, more active one)

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/RawMeatyBones/ (UK based one).


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## misterjinglejay (18 October 2011)

Probably been posted before, but are ribs okay to feed?


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## Cyrus (18 October 2011)

misterjay said:



			Probably been posted before, but are ribs okay to feed?
		
Click to expand...

yes all three of mine enjoy a good set of lamb ribs


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## Oberon (18 October 2011)

Ribs are fine. Threw a handful out to the Wolf when at the butcher's before. He enjoyed munching (for free) while I was buying meat for us


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## Cinnamontoast (18 October 2011)

Lamb and pork are fab, never seen beef, so no idea.


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## Oberon (19 October 2011)

There's a pic of my old girl enjoying a beef rib on this thread somewhere.


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## Oberon (26 October 2011)

Raw fed dogs really enjoy their meals......

MMMM green tripe






MMMMM chicken feet (yes, those are toes hanging out of her mouth  )


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## CorvusCorax (30 October 2011)

Collected my first order from Natural Instinct yesterday, got a box full of stuff for just over £30, four tubs of the working turkey mince, week's work of lamb necks, week's worth of lamb spines, will report back!
Still loving the DUCK, it is very versatile in terms of making a Kong stuffing and also being able to use it for hand feeding, fits in a pocket and breaks up easily.


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## CorvusCorax (31 October 2011)

Butchers are hit and miss as they also give to a greyhound man locally, Tescos for lamb shoulder shanks and ribs, turkey legs if I am stuck, Natural Instinct do lamb necks, lamb ribs and lamb spines, chicken and turkey backs. I have the full price list somewhere but they have a website too?
Source a turkey farmer before Christmas - my boss' parents are turkey farmers and they have to pay to dispose of the waste product, I am trying to either get a van load of us to go down to him or he is going to bring a skip lorry up to us


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## blackcob (31 October 2011)

Definitely try another butcher, mine keeps bags of chicken bones and trimmings for me now.  

Desperately wish we had a big chest freezer, last year he offered me sacks and sacks of turkey bits, they do a lot of boned rolled turkey butterfly joints so all the bones, legs and wings are discarded. 

Morrisons also do packs of lamb bones for stock and other raw-friendly bits like hearts and trotters.


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## threeponies (1 November 2011)

After reading this thread with great interest, I've decided our dog should go down the raw route.  She has never enjoyed her food, not a big eater at all and can (and does) go for days without eating/eating very little.  So on Sunday I bought her a chicken quarter and my OH cut off the drumstick for her and presented it to her for her tea.  She ate the lot, then had another one last night.  It's nice to see her excited for food and to see her enjoying eating. 
So, a question- she weighs 6.5kg and is at the perfect weight, she was spayed last Thursday, vet very happy with her condition.  Is 1 'fat' chicken leg enough/too much?  My scales need a new battery so going by the pack the drumsticks weigh approx 180g.  Can she have the rest of the quarter tonight, it seems to have less bone on it?  Sorry for all the questions!


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## Oberon (1 November 2011)

The ratio is usually 2-3% of their ideal bodyweight

So at per day, 6.5kg....130g - 195g.

80% meat would be 108g - 156g
10% bone would be 13.5g - 19.5g
5% organ would be 6.75g - 9.75g
5% liver would be 6.75g - 9.75g

These are the rough ratios that are when they are established at Raw feeding and they're not written in stone.

For the first two week's I'd stick to chicken pieces only. Then introduce different meats slowly. It's going too fast that makes the dog's unwell.

I found the advice from this site invaluable at first.
http://preymodelraw.com/how-to-get-started/


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## Oberon (1 November 2011)

Ostrich said:



			It sounds an obvious question, but where do you get your bones from?  I get chicken carcasses from a local butcher, but they also sell them to the local takeaway places so quite often they dont have any in   They tell me they dont have any 'waste' bones - mainly because I think they have realised they are on to a good thing, and charge pet owners for everything now 

I think I shall try the other local butchers this weekend....
		
Click to expand...

I got fed up of scratching around at butchers every week and worrying about not getting the right amounts of everything so I order from Durham Animal Feeds each month and just dump it all in the spare freezer in the outhouse.

If you go around butchers and ask for what's in their slop buckets, you get a lot of stuff for free and then just buy what you need.

I'm too lazy to do that though


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## Cinnamontoast (1 November 2011)

Ostrich said:



			Thanks for the tips, I do some investigations   I wish I had space for a huge chest freezer too BC, I have a chicken factory about 10mins drive away and they sell the waste stuff really cheaply by the box 

Click to expand...

Cor, where do you live? I'm coming!


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## Toffee44 (7 November 2011)

Buster just ate his first turkey wing, took him 20minutes bless him, least he ate his tripe quicker. His first meal of no kibble what so ever. At least he was really interested in it, he could quite happily stop eating skinners and wonder off 

(hes going to be on just tripe and turkey for two weeks)


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## threeponies (13 November 2011)

My terrier is 2 weeks into the raw diet and is loving it, squeaking at the fridge for her dinner every night!  Can someone tell me if it's ok to give her a wee bit of liver this week or should I give her another full week on chicken?


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## Oberon (13 November 2011)

threeponies said:



			My terrier is 2 weeks into the raw diet and is loving it, squeaking at the fridge for her dinner every night!  Can someone tell me if it's ok to give her a wee bit of liver this week or should I give her another full week on chicken?
		
Click to expand...

I left liver until week 8.
This is how I did it:

Week 1) & 2) Chicken
Week 3) and turkey
Week 4) add pork 
Week 5) add fish (sardines are best, I just feed wild salmon oil though)
Week 6) add beef
Week 7) add kidney/organs
Week 8) add liver

I followed the advice on this site http://preymodelraw.com/how-to-get-started/

Going too fast will give your dog cannon butt and is the biggest cause of 'failure' of the Raw diet. Her stomach acid needs to be 'trained' to digest raw and bone and you shouldn't rush this.

When you do feed liver, if she isn't keen - try it frozen. Mine turn their noses up at organs but will enjoy it when frozen.


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## threeponies (14 November 2011)

Thanks for that guide Oberon, it's very helpful set out like that.  The cats will be having liver tonight!


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## Oberon (15 November 2011)

Weeks 4 - 6 can be in any order though, but I feel (and I'm NOT an expert in this) that Weeks 1 -3 and 7 - 8 are best left as they are.


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## biccie1 (25 November 2011)

I'm doing raw the lazy way and have Rocky on Natural Instinct.  It's already minced and boxed up for us so we simply serve.  

That said a couple of times a week he gets a bone instead (from Natural Instinct or the supermarket discount shelf). 

Reasons mainly for being lazy are we both work full time, our local butcher feeds his own dogs raw (so there is none left over) and we don't have much freezer space.

He is absolutely thriving on it and is another that has gone from being a "wander off in the middle of dinner" type dog (on kibble) to wolfing it down in one go (on raw).

He looks healthy and most importantly (and our main reason for changing to raw) his poos are now solid and can actually be picked up!


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## CorvusCorax (25 November 2011)

The NI lamb spines, lamb necks and turkey backs are really good for bone. I'm saving the tubs of working mix so I can buy a big job lot of chicken mince or tripe, then defrost and decant it into them for less smell/mess and it will work out cheaper.


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## Inthemud (25 November 2011)

We are going the "easy" route too, using packs from Raw to Go.

As a newbie to raw feeding, I want to get used to how it all works first and may try DIY at some point in the future.

It is so funny to see a 12 week old whippet pup, discover her inner wolf, lol.


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## KarynK (27 November 2011)

Some pet shops stock the Prize choice big packs of chicken necks, have bought a pack for mine when I ran out of everything recently (about £4),   and they do meat and tripe chunks as well if you get stuck.


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## Cinnamontoast (27 November 2011)

Ostrich said:



			Blurggh fed herrings to mine tonight as they were cheap at Tescos, and two hours later Islay has just chucked the whole lot up again with no warning   I suppose they are too rich for her, so I will wait for a while and give her some chicken instead  All the dogs loved the herring though 

Click to expand...

Oops! Chop up one, divide between three (?), freeze the rest. Mine always chuck if I give them too much new stuff.


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## davisn (28 November 2011)

Ostrich said:



			Blurggh fed herrings to mine tonight as they were cheap at Tescos, and two hours later Islay has just chucked the whole lot up again with no warning   I suppose they are too rich for her, so I will wait for a while and give her some chicken instead  All the dogs loved the herring though 

Click to expand...

I had this problem with Dylan eating oily fish.

I now feed it frozen so that he has to nibble & bite chunks off rather than swallow it whole. This has made a huge difference & he is no longer sick after eating. Might be worth a try?


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## Slinkyunicorn (28 November 2011)

Mine have done that too - they chuck them up and eat them again - bleurgh!! I think they don't chew them enough when they first eat them so need to have a second go


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## Oberon (28 November 2011)

It happened to me too

I heard whole sardines were the best fish to feed as they mature quickly and don't take in as many pollutants? But I found them hard to get hold of, so I've given up in favour of Wild Salmon Tablets.

Much easier and Salem thinks he's getting a treat every night


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## Inthemud (1 December 2011)

Whippet pup initially fell on her raw to go chicken, but is currently refusing to eat it until I heat it up for half a minute in the microwave (!).

Should I just put it down at room temp, for 10 minutes and then remove and let hunger kick in? Would do this for an adult dog, but not sure about a 14 week old pup?

Really don't want to train her into being a finnicky feeder, but don't want to mess up her growing either.

All advice gratefully received!


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## Toffee44 (6 December 2011)

Mine all had a whole plaice last night. Went down very well, even with the new neighbours looking at Dylan as if what the hell is that in his gob haha.


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## Cinnamontoast (6 December 2011)

Inthemud said:



			Whippet pup initially fell on her raw to go chicken, but is currently refusing to eat it until I heat it up for half a minute in the microwave (!).

Should I just put it down at room temp, for 10 minutes and then remove and let hunger kick in? Would do this for an adult dog, but not sure about a 14 week old pup?

Really don't want to train her into being a finnicky feeder, but don't want to mess up her growing either.

All advice gratefully received!
		
Click to expand...

Do the put it down for ten minutes thing or hand feed to get her going, just not forever or you'll have to rename her Tricky Woo! Why not hea it as you have been doing? If it's straight from the fridge it might not smell as stinky and nice.


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## Oberon (7 December 2011)

Xara tried to bring her green tripe indoors.

I slammed the door in her face.....and she just stood there with it in her mouth until I gave in


Who says an old dog can't teach a human new tricks.....


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## Toffee44 (7 December 2011)

Tripe is swallowed whole in this house.


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## threeponies (14 December 2011)

My terrier has been doing well on raw for 6/7 weeks but on Friday she sort of choked on a chicken wing bone (eating too fast) and had to go to the vet for xrays to make sure the bone wasn't stuck.  She is ok, no stuck bones, but I'm now a bit apprehensive to give her chicken again.  She has been having beef mince and oxtails since Saturday but yesterday she struggled to poo and was squealing  Can someone hold my hand/kick my backside and tell me what to give her please?


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## davisn (14 December 2011)

If she's eating too fast & not chewing properly I'd give her bigger bits so that she has to chew - chunks the size of her head or bigger would be best. Try chicken legs/quarters or carcasses, or turkey wings/necks.

If you are only in week 6 I guess you are still slowly introducing different 'animals'. If you tell us what you have introduced so far we might be able to suggest other things. 

If her pooh is too firm she needs less bone & more meat. Have you introduced offal or fish yet? Liver can sometimes be a bit rich & some dogs take time to accept liver & kidney, but heart, lights (lungs) & tripe should be ok. Oily fish (mackerel, sardines etc) are great, but I need to feed them frozen otherwise the lab swallows whole & brings it back up several times.

I hope this helps a bit.


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## threeponies (14 December 2011)

davisn, she has been having  chicken up to week 5, week 6 I introduced the beef and she has had a few meals with beef/pork mince with her chicken.  I tried her with sprats but she wouldn't eat them, not even frozen.  She had beef mince tonight do I wait a couple of days before giving her bone again?


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## davisn (14 December 2011)

threeponies said:



			davisn, she has been having  chicken up to week 5, week 6 I introduced the beef and she has had a few meals with beef/pork mince with her chicken.  I tried her with sprats but she wouldn't eat them, not even frozen.  She had beef mince tonight do I wait a couple of days before giving her bone again?
		
Click to expand...

I'd ease off on the quantity of bone you are feeding. You are aiming for firm pooh, but it shouldn't cause straining or pain for her to pass motions. You could try introducing some green tripe, ox tongue or heart or maybe some chunks of braising steak (often reduced in supermarkets).


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## Bustermartin (27 December 2011)

Hi all - hope someone can help - I am expecting to have an 8 week old labrador puppy next week and want to feed him RAW.  Am thinking of making it easier for me to start with by buying it in from one of the main suppliers.  I may go DIY in the future.  But my question is - he is being fed BETA Puppy at the moment - does anyone have any advice on how best to manage the change over?  Should I do it graduallly, or just make a quick change.  Would I be better letting him settle in first for a week or so, and then change it? 

Thanks very much for any advice.


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## Cinnamontoast (27 December 2011)

Bustermartin said:



			Hi all - hope someone can help - I am expecting to have an 8 week old labrador puppy next week and want to feed him RAW.  Am thinking of making it easier for me to start with by buying it in from one of the main suppliers.  I may go DIY in the future.  But my question is - he is being fed BETA Puppy at the moment - does anyone have any advice on how best to manage the change over?  Should I do it graduallly, or just make a quick change.  Would I be better letting him settle in first for a week or so, and then change it? 

Thanks very much for any advice.
		
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This is a variety of ideas:
http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-health-nutrition/210591-advice-starting-raw-feeding-please.html

You only need to read the first few pages of this:
http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-health-nutrition/111437-raw-feeding-everything-you-need-know.html

And here's a supplier list: 
http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-health-nutrition/197702-raw-food-supplier-list.html

And in return, lots of puppy pics, please!


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## Bustermartin (27 December 2011)

Gosh thanks - better get reading.  Thank you very much.  
Puppy pictures  ( and probably more questions!) will follow shortly.


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## Cinnamontoast (28 December 2011)

Bustermartin said:



			Gosh thanks - better get reading.  Thank you very much.  
Puppy pictures  ( and probably more questions!) will follow shortly.
		
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*like*


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## Inthemud (28 December 2011)

You will find this forum incredibly helpful with this. Wouldn't have dared try putting whippy pup onto raw without all the advice I got and she LOVES it!


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## Oberon (29 December 2011)

I often use the small butcher at the village for meat for us and I ask for a bone from the slop bucket thrown in.

The butchers are sometimes nervous about what to give me - even when I reassure them that whatever they have is fine. (Then they see the size of the wolf and calm down)....

But today the girl behind the counter almost refused to give me pork bones "because they are not good for dogs and they can splinter and choke the dog." 
	
	
		
		
	


	





Apparantly her own dog had a problem and so this makes her an expert on the subject 
	
	
		
		
	


	





I was treated to a full lecture while she bagged them up and I was instructed to supervise my dogs closely 
	
	
		
		
	


	




.

Needless to say I left the dogs with them while I went to the stables 
	
	
		
		
	


	





Patronising cow


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## Cinnamontoast (29 December 2011)

To be honest, I don't leave the dogs unsupervised with bones, pig ears etc. One of the pups nearly choked on a cow ear one day and it is recommended that you keep an eye. Better safe than sorry, IMO and they're not in the wild, survival of the fittest blah, so I'd rather keep an eye. Wussy, maybe, but I'd never forgive myself if anything happened.


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## Oberon (30 December 2011)

cinammontoast said:



			To be honest, I don't leave the dogs unsupervised with bones, pig ears etc. One of the pups nearly choked on a cow ear one day and it is recommended that you keep an eye. Better safe than sorry, IMO and they're not in the wild, survival of the fittest blah, so I'd rather keep an eye. Wussy, maybe, but I'd never forgive myself if anything happened.
		
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Hubby was in the house

It was the insistence that I hover over them while eating


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## Bustermartin (2 January 2012)

OK - so puppy will be here in two days and although I have read up lots and lots I just have a couple more questions so if one of you lovely people who know about this could help, I really would appreciate it!!

I have wimped out a bit really and bought some of Natural Instinct's chicken with bone as a gentle starter for both of us, but in the first few days is that all I should give him?  I'm guessing he will weigh around about 11lb at 7 weeks old (lab) so how much would you recommend he has?  He is currently on 3 meals of BETA Puppy food.   Do you think I should split it into three meals or perhaps 2 meals of meat and give him some egg or yoghurt for the third?  Someone said that goats milk is good for puppies - any thoughts on that?

You would think I have never had a puppy before in my life the amount I am worrying about it all!

Thanks for any help anyone can give.....


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## Cinnamontoast (3 January 2012)

3 meals and give 2-3% of projected adult weight. Stay with the ?Natural Instinct for a few days then start on chicken wings, hold them so he gets the idea to chew, not inhale.


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## NOISYGIRL (4 January 2012)

I'm really sorry I don't have time to read all the thread, are there links to feeding raw being good for anal glands, this has come from a comment made on another thread so I was just wondering 

Thanks


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## davisn (4 January 2012)

NOISYGIRL said:



			I'm really sorry I don't have time to read all the thread, are there links to feeding raw being good for anal glands, this has come from a comment made on another thread so I was just wondering 

Thanks
		
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Yes. As I understand it the bone content firms up the consistency of the pooh, which means that the anal glands are used for what they were designed for, ie assisting with passing solid motions, expressing the glands each time the dog poohs.

Few dogs fed a raw diet need to have their anal glands manually expressed, although there are some that still need help in this area.


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## Oberon (23 January 2012)

I had my monthly delivery from Durham Animal Feeds today.





This is their different components that I get out of the freezer each day (it changes every month)





And a daily portion for them both (larger portion to get some room in the freezer)





Tomorrow's portion defrosting in the shed.


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## Cinnamontoast (23 January 2012)

I didn't get a delivery this month, I really need ne every six weeks, but the DFC only do monthly. However, scary men with guns at yard yesterday gave me 10 of these! 







If I'm desperate, a local bloke supplies greyhound trainers with green tripe and Morrisons isn't far.


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## Dizzle (27 January 2012)

Ok, so planning on getting our first dog in the next month or so. Im think RAW is the way to go, but I have a few questions. Planning on getting a Border Terrier.
-How much do I feed? 
-How often do I feed?
-What should you feed a RAW puppy?
-What should I avoid?
-How much does it work out to feed the average terrier?
-To start off with is there a company that I can order from (were in the Cotswolds)? How much is this likely to cost per week? Is it feasible to have a weeks worth of small dog food in our freezer? How much is that likely to cost?

Starting to feel owning a dog is scarier than owning a horse for the first time!


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## Cinnamontoast (27 January 2012)

Dizzle said:



			-How much do I feed? 
-How often do I feed?
-What should you feed a RAW puppy?
-What should I avoid?
-How much does it work out to feed the average terrier?
-To start off with is there a company that I can order from (were in the Cotswolds)? How much is this likely to cost per week? Is it feasible to have a weeks worth of small dog food in our freezer? How much is that likely to cost
		
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Feed 10% of breed standard adult weight. 

Feed four times daily, late as poss at night.

Puppies can have anything, no weight bearing bones, nothing likely to break teeth, star with chicken wings, hold so he doesn't try to inhale them (wean off food breeder gave slowly)

Avoid offal for first few weeks, introduce new type of meat every week after first two weeks on chicken or turkey. 

Rawtogo deliver nationwide (based in Wales). For such a small puppy, I'd use the local butcher to start with (Morrisons is fab too).

Read the first three pages: 
http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-health-nutrition/111437-raw-feeding-everything-you-need-know.html

Supplier list: 
http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-health-nutrition/197702-raw-food-supplier-list.html


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## davisn (28 January 2012)

Dizzle said:



			Ok, so planning on getting our first dog in the next month or so. I&#8217;m think RAW is the way to go, but I have a few questions. Planning on getting a Border Terrier.
-How much do I feed? 
-How often do I feed?
-What should you feed a RAW puppy?
-What should I avoid?
-How much does it work out to feed the average terrier?
-To start off with is there a company that I can order from (we&#8217;re in the Cotswolds)? How much is this likely to cost per week? Is it feasible to have a week&#8217;s worth of small dog food in our freezer? How much is that likely to cost?

Starting to feel owning a dog is scarier than owning a horse for the first time!
		
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Firstly, don't be scared. Feeding raw is just like anything else, once you get the hang of it & build your confidence it's second nature.

I have a Border Terrier who I feed raw. I got him at 8 weeks old & was planning to continue with the dry food he had at his breeder's until he had settled in, but as soon as he saw what my lab got to eat he refused to eat his own food, so I switched him at about 10 weeks.

I have found that puppies adapt really easily & will pretty much eat what is put in front of them. To start with I bought food for him from the shops (farm shop & supermarket) as I still had a lot of raw food in the freezer for the lab, but most of it was too big for a pup. I stuck to chicken wings for the first week, then added a few meals of small lamb ribs (from Morrisions) for the second week. After that I introduced new meats more frequently with no problems at all. Sprats, prawns, cans of tuna in spring water, liver, kidney, heart, pork ribs, braising steak, mince etc whatever is reduced or on special offer really.

I used to get my raw food from Landywoods, but a new supplier has just started locally so I now support them, although they are a little more expensive the quality is far better. I have a huge chest freezer & tend to order 2 or 3 months worth of food at a time.

A terrier is very cheap to feed. I would think that if you are good at hunting out bargins & have room to store extra food you could probably do it for about £10 a month, although this will be more if you buy everything at full price in the shops.

I agree with cinammontoast re amount & frequency of feed. Puppies need little & often. By the age of about 4 months I dropped to 3 meals a day, 6 months 2 meals & will aim to take that to 1 meal at about 12 months, but it does depend on the dog. Use your eyes to judge their weight.


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## Dizzle (30 January 2012)

davisn said:



			Firstly, don't be scared. Feeding raw is just like anything else, once you get the hang of it & build your confidence it's second nature.

I have a Border Terrier who I feed raw. I got him at 8 weeks old & was planning to continue with the dry food he had at his breeder's until he had settled in, but as soon as he saw what my lab got to eat he refused to eat his own food, so I switched him at about 10 weeks.

I have found that puppies adapt really easily & will pretty much eat what is put in front of them. To start with I bought food for him from the shops (farm shop & supermarket) as I still had a lot of raw food in the freezer for the lab, but most of it was too big for a pup. I stuck to chicken wings for the first week, then added a few meals of small lamb ribs (from Morrisions) for the second week. After that I introduced new meats more frequently with no problems at all. Sprats, prawns, cans of tuna in spring water, liver, kidney, heart, pork ribs, braising steak, mince etc whatever is reduced or on special offer really.

I used to get my raw food from Landywoods, but a new supplier has just started locally so I now support them, although they are a little more expensive the quality is far better. I have a huge chest freezer & tend to order 2 or 3 months worth of food at a time.

A terrier is very cheap to feed. I would think that if you are good at hunting out bargins & have room to store extra food you could probably do it for about £10 a month, although this will be more if you buy everything at full price in the shops.

I agree with cinammontoast re amount & frequency of feed. Puppies need little & often. By the age of about 4 months I dropped to 3 meals a day, 6 months 2 meals & will aim to take that to 1 meal at about 12 months, but it does depend on the dog. Use your eyes to judge their weight.
		
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Thank you this is super! When you say it's 10% of adult body weight, is that per day or per meal? I don't want to be feeding him 10% 4 times a day for him to go POP!

(btw, put down a deposit on our Border today )


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## davisn (31 January 2012)

Dizzle said:



			Thank you this is super! When you say it's 10% of adult body weight, is that per day or per meal? I don't want to be feeding him 10% 4 times a day for him to go POP!

(btw, put down a deposit on our Border today )
		
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Congrats re finding a BT, mine is such a character, if a little cheeky sometimes.

percentage is per day not meal


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## Dizzle (31 January 2012)

Fab, thank you! I bought a few things for him in town today such as brushes and toys, I take it all the treats in the shop are out of the question, a few were called 'meaty' treats and what about raw hide chews? 

For his first day or so would it be best to start with chicken breast then introduce bones on day two or three once he's used to proper meat? I just worry about tiny teeth and bones (obviously my brain is basing this on his two week old self I saw last night not his 8 week old self!)


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## CorvusCorax (1 February 2012)

I personally would not feed anything from the pet shops, rawhide etc, (it's usually bleached to within an inch of its life and can swell in the gut, I don't even feed pigs ears any more after getting a rollicking from a raw feeder ) the 'bones' are often incinerated and splinter easily, the filled hooves are full of crap (read the label).

Treats for my lad would include hearts, chicken wings or a stuffed Kong, the Nylabone dental range is good too for a non-edible chew.
If you're getting a puppy a frozen carrot is also a great time-waster and will help with teething pain.


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## threeponies (1 February 2012)

Rawhide makes my terrier very very sick.  I second Nylabones, mine has had her puppy wishbone for just over a year and got a 'big' dog one for Christmas  Kongs are great too but they get shredded very quickly here


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## CorvusCorax (1 February 2012)

That's weird, I have heard a lot of people say their dogs wreck Kongs, my fella is a chomper and a shredder, tennis balls are destroyed in seconds, he has to have towels and fleeces instead of a bed, he's wrecked pillows, rugs, cushions...but he has never tried to do a number on his Kongs!
I am using the XXL tough ones though.


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## Oberon (1 February 2012)

Rawhide chews also make my Wolf sick.


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## SusieT (1 February 2012)

'My terrier has been doing well on raw for 6/7 weeks but on Friday she sort of choked on a chicken wing bone (eating too fast) and had to go to the vet for xrays to make sure the bone wasn't stuck. She is ok, no stuck bones, but I'm now a bit apprehensive to give her chicken again. She has been having beef mince and oxtails since Saturday but yesterday she struggled to poo and was squealing Can someone hold my hand/kick my backside and tell me what to give her please? '
Why if your dog is struggling on this diet do you not say, well maybe its not for her? I'd ratehr feed dry than risk an obstruction :/


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## SusieT (1 February 2012)

'I often use the small butcher at the village for meat for us and I ask for a bone from the slop bucket thrown in.

The butchers are sometimes nervous about what to give me - even when I reassure them that whatever they have is fine. (Then they see the size of the wolf and calm down)....

But today the girl behind the counter almost refused to give me pork bones "because they are not good for dogs and they can splinter and choke the dog."

Apparantly her own dog had a problem and so this makes her an expert on the subject

I was treated to a full lecture while she bagged them up and I was instructed to supervise my dogs closely .

Needless to say I left the dogs with them while I went to the stables

Patronising cow '

How ironic- RAW feeders are allowed to share their knowledge and advice but 'others' are not?


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## CorvusCorax (1 February 2012)

My butcher always questions chicken and turkey bones but I just agree to disagree with him  it's my choice, my old girl nearly died swallowing a pair of tights 

I personally do not think all dogs suit the raw diet/it suits them. B tore all his hair out, maybe I should have continued with the cold turkey but I wasn't prepared to subject him to any more pain/discomfort, and his sister puked everything back up. Covered in smelly green bile. Niiice.


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## soloabe (1 February 2012)

SusieT said:



			'My terrier has been doing well on raw for 6/7 weeks but on Friday she sort of choked on a chicken wing bone (eating too fast) and had to go to the vet for xrays to make sure the bone wasn't stuck. She is ok, no stuck bones, but I'm now a bit apprehensive to give her chicken again. She has been having beef mince and oxtails since Saturday but yesterday she struggled to poo and was squealing Can someone hold my hand/kick my backside and tell me what to give her please? '
Why if your dog is struggling on this diet do you not say, well maybe its not for her? I'd ratehr feed dry than risk an obstruction :/
		
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If i wanted to avoid an obstruction i sure wouldn't be feeding dry food. Dry food swells massively in the stomach and causes obstructions regularly.

You likely are feeding to much bone which is why she is struggling to go. If you are feeding just chicken wings for a meal they have around 30% bone so you need to add more muscle meat to even it out or you will get trouble with bowel movements.

I don't feed wings. To small and not enough meat on them. Thighs are much more balanced. 

How long have you been feeding raw? what meat have you introduced so far?


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## davisn (1 February 2012)

Dizzle said:



			Fab, thank you! I bought a few things for him in town today such as brushes and toys, I take it all the treats in the shop are out of the question, a few were called 'meaty' treats and what about raw hide chews? 

For his first day or so would it be best to start with chicken breast then introduce bones on day two or three once he's used to proper meat? I just worry about tiny teeth and bones (obviously my brain is basing this on his two week old self I saw last night not his 8 week old self!)
		
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Sorry, I've been a bit busy & didn't have time to respond earlier.

A few training treats won't do any harm, but I'd steer clear of recreational treats like raw hide chews & roasted knuckle bones. There are plenty of alternatives, some suggested above.

I gave small chicken wings from day one (cut in half at the joint if too big), but you could do breasts for a couple of meals or even de-bone some thighs. Also minced chicken. If you go to a raw supplier rather than a supermarket you can get minced meat with bone added or chicken necks (our local farm shop sells these & you may get them from a butchers). You'd be surprised how well they cope even at that age.

I meant to say before, Morrisons sell packs of bones for pennies (for making stock I guess). They may be a bit big for food when you first start, but they could make great recreational bones as they still have some meat left on. Their packs of liver, kidney & heart are frequently reduced right down in price, as are packs of fresh sprats.

It will cost more to buy this way, but if you are limited for space it may help. Many raw suppliers have a minimum order of about £30, which would last a BT ages.

Also, I remember now that I had to cut his food back a bit as he was getting a bit porky, so keep an eye on the weight & shape.


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## threeponies (1 February 2012)

SusieT:  MY dog will not eat dry kibble food, this is why I am giving raw a try.  She ate a chicken wing too quickly and was showing signs of having a bit stuck so I took her to the vet to be checked out.  She has not been given chicken wings since for 2 reasons: she eats them too quickly and they are too boney so she struggles to poo.  She has gone from a dog who refused to eat kibble (starving herself for more than a week) to one who squeaks for her dinner every night.  I am doing what I believe to be the best thing for my dog = feeding her as nature intended dogs to eat.


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## Oberon (1 February 2012)

SusieT said:



			'I often use the small butcher at the village for meat for us and I ask for a bone from the slop bucket thrown in.

The butchers are sometimes nervous about what to give me - even when I reassure them that whatever they have is fine. (Then they see the size of the wolf and calm down)....

But today the girl behind the counter almost refused to give me pork bones "because they are not good for dogs and they can splinter and choke the dog."

Apparantly her own dog had a problem and so this makes her an expert on the subject

I was treated to a full lecture while she bagged them up and I was instructed to supervise my dogs closely .

Needless to say I left the dogs with them while I went to the stables

Patronising cow '

How ironic- RAW feeders are allowed to share their knowledge and advice but 'others' are not?
		
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How desperate are you for attention? 

The woman in the shop wasn't sharing knowledge - she was force feeding me her opinion, which was not required. If I wish to feed my dogs 'dangerous' bones - then it is my choice.

Anyone else interested is welcome to read this thread. Those who don't - are happy to skip this thread. I'm not interested in preaching about raw to anyone.

I didn't bother to argue with the girl in the shop but there is a world of difference in giving a bone to a raw fed dog - who will eat it and digest it completely, than giving a kibble fed dog, without the appropriate level of digestive acid, a bone purely for recreation only to have it impact.

In the first weeks of feeding raw to my dogs, they would pass shards of bone with just chicken - but now they can eat any bone and it's fully digested....there's no bone in their poop afterwards.

That's one of the reasons raw has to be introduced very gradually.


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## PaddyMonty (14 February 2012)

Another raw diet convert here.
I started my whippet (Brinny) on it 3 weeks ago with chicken wings. Took a couple of days for her to get te idea that it was her food.
My daughters whippet (pidge) has been a problem to put wieght on since we got her a year ago.  Fussy eater, very small and looked like an RSPCA case.
She was started on raw 2 weeks ago as it took me a week to convince my daughter her dog wasn't goiing to die eating raw chicken so mine had to be the trial.
Again it took awhile for her to get the idea.  The breakthrough was when i just threw wings on the floor and let it be every dog for herself.  Amazing motivation is competition for food. Now the wings rarely even reach the floor.
Pidge looks really good after just 2 weeks. Gained lots of weight.
They have chicken or lamb mince (with bone) in evening feed as this is available from local pet food store at £3.02 per 2 klg.

Will shortly be adding in liver, heart etc (slowly) as these also available from local pet store cheap.

Picked up a second hand freeer of Ebay cheap last night so bulk sourcing to start soon.  Also getting an old fashioned cast iron mincer so I can mix up feed and store frozen in meal sized portions.

Who would have thought feeding a dog could be so much fun.  Excitement at meal times is great to see.

So glad I made the switch.
Will get some pics and post on here.


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## CorvusCorax (14 February 2012)

Welcome to the dark side  it's addictive!!


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## Toffee44 (14 February 2012)

Cow tails are very amusing to watch a dog eat, Teal just played with the furry end and I eventually gave it to dylan and Teal thought it was too good to eatlol. Dylan just ate it and Buster stared at it for ages. And apparantly Dylans 20th Road Kill Pheasant was the limit for Dylan so he went hungry for a day last week.


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## Toffee44 (14 February 2012)

soloabe said:



			If i wanted to avoid an obstruction i sure wouldn't be feeding dry food. Dry food swells massively in the stomach and causes obstructions regularly.

You likely are feeding to much bone which is why she is struggling to go. If you are feeding just chicken wings for a meal they have around 30% bone so you need to add more muscle meat to even it out or you will get trouble with bowel movements.

I don't feed wings. To small and not enough meat on them. Thighs are much more balanced. 

How long have you been feeding raw? what meat have you introduced so far?
		
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Hello stranger!! !! 

We need an Abe photoshoot


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## Cinnamontoast (15 February 2012)

SusieT, you sly fox! Are you trying to up your post count by replying to a post that doesn't really interest you and you don't raw feed anyway so why bother? 

Yup, you can respond to whatever you want on here, but it's a bit sudden! I'm so thrilled you joined in the thread I got stickied, keeps it live. Many thanks!


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## PorkChop (17 February 2012)

Was wondering if any of you knowledgeable people could answer a question I have about the RAW diet please?

Is it necessary to feed bones? Two of my dogs are gundogs and they have been trained not to chew - if that makes sense.  Will they be lacking?

Many thanks x


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## Cinnamontoast (18 February 2012)

LJR said:



			Was wondering if any of you knowledgeable people could answer a question I have about the RAW diet please?

Is it necessary to feed bones? Two of my dogs are gundogs and they have been trained not to chew - if that makes sense.  Will they be lacking?

Many thanks x
		
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A lot of the raw diet has to do with raw meaty bones. You can feed without, but most dogs like to chew, it is natural. I should think they'd know the difference if you stick stuff in their bowl as opposed to when out beating and picking up? Maybe avoid whole birds at home? You can get mince with bone in, but a lot of people prefer the whole lumps of meat caveman style.


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## PorkChop (19 February 2012)

cinnamontoast said:



			A lot of the raw diet has to do with raw meaty bones. You can feed without, but most dogs like to chew, it is natural. I should think they'd know the difference if you stick stuff in their bowl as opposed to when out beating and picking up? Maybe avoid whole birds at home? You can get mince with bone in, but a lot of people prefer the whole lumps of meat caveman style. 

Click to expand...

Thank you x


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## vieshot (19 February 2012)

I switched my mutt onto raw today. Shes been fed raw liver a fair bit in the past so her meals today consisted of raw liver for breakfast and pork ribs for tea. Is this an okay feeding arrangement.

Im having panic attacks worrying about her being in pain constipated so im probably not getting the 70/30 quite right yet but dont think im far off?

Is it okay to have a bone based meal in morning (chicken wings or pork ribs) and meat with no bones in eve (liver or mince) or vice versa. Im trying to get the balance right and want to be sure im getting it right!0


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## Cinnamontoast (19 February 2012)

Vieshot, the usual ratio is 80:10:10, meat, bone, offal. Balance that over a week and you won't be going far wrong. Go easy on the liver or you might see lots of runny poo!


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## jodie3 (20 February 2012)

I'm hoping to start my three on a raw diet this week but have a couple of questions.

What do you feed as a treat/training aid?  I think mine will think the world has ended if they don't have a bonio before bed!  Also as my new girl is deaf I am teaching her commands using treats so need something as a substitute.

Is any dairy allowed?  I have goats milk which they love.  Also what about eggs as tend to have a surplus?

Thanks in advance.

Jo


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## CorvusCorax (20 February 2012)

Eggs are fine. I feed mine a dairy culture.

For hand feeding I use raw chicken mince (MMM!), liver sausage from Iceland, Webbox chub (a new discovery) hot dogs cut up, cooked chicken pieces in an emergency (expensive I know!!)

For treats you could substitute a small chicken wing, a chicken thigh, a lambs' heart or half a heart or something or you could look into cooking liver or tuna cake.


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## jodie3 (20 February 2012)

Thank you!

I'm quite excited about it but a little anxious too as worried about not feeding them enough and not being organised enough and running out!

Liver or tuna cake ??  Just bake bits in the oven to dry or is there an actual recipe?  

I quite often end up offering the ponies a bit of dog biscuit from my pocket instead of a pony nut but I think they will be horrified if I offer a bit of minced chicken!!

So if they eat something that isn't totally raw it doesn't set them back at all and cause the runs or wind once they are established on the raw food?  Both Dalmatians are terrible thieves (Blink can open a bolted door to get to the fridge to clear its contents) and all three were in the chicken run this afternoon, helping to tidy up behind the hens.


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## CorvusCorax (20 February 2012)

It hasn't set mine back (cooked chicken, hot dog bits, the Chubb stuff) but obviously all dogs are different in terms of sensitivity, I just make sure it is always meat. It's raw food and cooked kibble which does not pair well.
If you do a search of the forum for home made dog treats there will be a few recipes


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## jodie3 (20 February 2012)

Thank you very much!

Jo


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## Toffee44 (21 February 2012)

I cube kidneys, pan fry and then leave in fridge. Work well for treats


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## jodie3 (27 February 2012)

Well we are four days into the new feeding regime and so far so good!

Just a couple of quick questions - do you feed it at room temp or straight from the fridge? Or even warm it a little or does that then run the risk of bacteria etc?

Is the frozen mince that petshops sell worth feeding or is it poor quality?


Who is the best supplier who will deliver to me in Sussex?

As always, many thanks!


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## davisn (28 February 2012)

Jodie3, I mainly feed at room temp, but sometimes I forget to get it out of the fridge so they get it chilled. I always feed oily fish frozen so they have to chew it. It doesn't seem to cause them any problems. The only time I'd warm food up a bit is if I had a really fussy eater (which I don't), I might warm some green tripe or flash fry offal.

I don't use the frozen mince from pet shops very often as it is more expensive than I pay, but I haven't found a problem with quality.

I don't know about suppliers in Sussex. I used to use Landywoods who I think cover most of the UK, but now I use a new local couple who only cover North Wales. Raw to go are based in Abergavenny, but courier to the whole of the UK, I haven't used them but hear good things about them. Also have a look at the dog food company, I think they may be in your area & several people on here recommend them.

Good luck


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## CorvusCorax (28 February 2012)

Mine gets his at room temperature, chilled, or frozen, and sometimes a bit high and smelly    just whatever. He has an iron constitution though.


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## jodie3 (28 February 2012)

Thank you.

They don't seem to care what temp it is so I will stop worrying!

I've bought a couple of boxes of pet mince so I don't run out and I'm now going to google suppliers.

Dogs seem very happy on it and are crunching merrily through the bones.


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## Toffee44 (3 March 2012)

Just a few pics from today 



















Oh and Dylan says Hi


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## Cinnamontoast (4 March 2012)




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## lexiedhb (8 March 2012)

jodie3 said:



			Well we are four days into the new feeding regime and so far so good!

Just a couple of quick questions - do you feed it at room temp or straight from the fridge? Or even warm it a little or does that then run the risk of bacteria etc?

Is the frozen mince that petshops sell worth feeding or is it poor quality?


Who is the best supplier who will deliver to me in Sussex?

As always, many thanks!
		
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Try the dog food company


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## Inthemud (9 March 2012)

Another vote for Raw to Go in Abergavenny.

Great range and fab service.

I had a delivery today & we are trying venison and pheasant mixes this time. Pupster eats better than I do!


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## Cinnamontoast (14 March 2012)

Dog Food Company 
	
	
		
		
	


	











Happy dogs, happy CT.


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## Inthemud (16 March 2012)

Toffee44 said:



			Don't ever try to defrost tripe (green) in microwave....that is all.
		
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This is still my favourite ever HHO post.....


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## Oberon (17 March 2012)

Inthemud said:



			This is still my favourite ever HHO post.....
		
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I didn't understand it at first....now I do


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## vieshot (18 March 2012)

Partners mum just brought dog a bag of cheap kibble (argh!!!) despite the fact she knows hes fed BARF.. Bit pissed off!

So I instantly interjected that he MUST NOT have kibble on the same day he has his raw. Fine if we run out and he needs kibble for a day its not much of an issue but never ever ever when hes got his raw. She asked why? Truth is I dont really know why, I just know its bad!!

Somebody fill me in!?


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## CorvusCorax (18 March 2012)

The foods move through the gut/are digested at different speeds. Feeding close together risks impaction, bloating and other nasties.


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## moppett (3 April 2012)

Probably a really silly question but i've just bought a massive bag of tripe chunks for the dog, and im now wondering if they count as part of the 80% muscle meat or 10% offal?


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## CorvusCorax (3 April 2012)

Tripe is offal.

Is it Prize Choice? Those chunks honk when defrosted


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## Oberon (3 April 2012)

I belive tripe is meat.


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## CorvusCorax (3 April 2012)

Oberon said:



			I belive tripe is meat.
		
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But it is internal organs/stomach chambers? Even for humans it is classed as offal.


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## lexiedhb (3 April 2012)

A lot of what i have read with regards to feeding dogs raw classes tripe as meat too (only for the ratio things tho)


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## CorvusCorax (3 April 2012)

Ah right, like the man in the  orthopedic shoes, I stand corrected 

I am probably doing it wrong anyway in terms of ratios. Bad me


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## Oberon (3 April 2012)

Either way it's not welcome in the house


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## CorvusCorax (3 April 2012)

I put a tub on the radiator to speed defrost the other day and forgot about it...bad idea.


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## Oberon (3 April 2012)

Xara trying to insist on being let in with a mouthful of tripe!

She was incredulous that I stood behind the door and refused to open it.....






I gave in eventually


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## MissTyc (3 April 2012)

LOL Oberon

In our household, tripe lasts just long enough for the dog to breathe in once ... and then it's inhaled like it never existed.


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## Cinnamontoast (3 April 2012)

I am not best pleased that big dog has suddenly started refusing tripe. He ate sme really reluctantly a few weeks ago then threw up.  The pups ate it no problem and they used to have really dodgy tums, so I don't think it was a bad batch. He still won't eat it and I'm a bit gutted as it's normally a large part of their diet.


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## blackcob (3 April 2012)

D often refuses tripe as well. She threw it up once but R hoovered it up in a nanosecond. *boak* 

She is more inclined to eat the human grade bleached stuff from the butcher but it's £4/kg _and_ she prefers it cooked. I made the effort a few times but the microwave still honks so I've given up.


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## moppett (3 April 2012)

Oberon I'm the same as you, anything messy or smelly (most raw things) are fed in the garden! I decided to vary my doggies raw diet from the stuff that can be bought from the supermarket/butcher and placed an order last week from rawtogo. I just ended up buying a little of everything - tripe and trotters have been a big success so far, and lamb shanks.
Also on the order were stuffed hooves (the description just said stuffed with chicken mince) and they STINK and also I am racking my brains trying to work out what kind of hoof? It dawned on me tonight that they're real hooves, not cloven which surely limits them to being....i hate to say it.....but donkey?horse? I'm horrified. Please someone give me piece of mind and tell me that its not real hoof at all!


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## lexiedhb (4 April 2012)

Its not around long enough in my house to stink!! Defrost in a tupperware- dog hoovers it up in seconds. Those who are struggling with it have you tried the tripe mixed with chicken/lamb/ butchers mince etc? Mate at works dog wont eat it straight but will eat it if mixed with something else.


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## KarynK (4 April 2012)

moppett said:



			...It dawned on me tonight that they're real hooves, not cloven which surely limits them to being....i hate to say it.....but donkey?horse? I'm horrified. Please someone give me piece of mind and tell me that its not real hoof at all!
		
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Of course it isn't now put your fingers in your ears!  Just think of it as everything but the neigh or bray is being used and not incinerated!!!

I feed tripe frozen as I can't stand the smell.  I buy the freeflow mince or chunks of green tripe from Pets at Home and feed it straight from the freezer and they don't turn it down.  Blue hates liver though and I have to mix that with minced beef for him to eat it and he leaves it till last, but the threat of Digger being around is usually enough for him to down it!


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## Nicki85 (10 April 2012)

I never thought i'd be feeding raw to my pup but on a visit to the petshop I decided to try the Natural Instinct range... It has the consistancy of tinned food but smells and looks better!! Pup seems to like it as well 

My concern is that he is not getting anything to chew... he has an antler but I haven't tried him on a meaty bone yet.  Is it essential that he has bones to chew on as part of the diet?  I'm a bit nervous of giving him one TBH.  Any tips?  I've got another dog (elderly spaniel who likes to watch him eat- he doesn't appreciate it!!) so I guess I would need to feed in the garden?  But then he doesn't like staying in the garden by himself!

Oh and this tripe buisness- guessing it's a good food for them?  COuld I start mixing in cuts of offal/ meat with his daily ration of Natural Instinct after a couple of weeks (obv cutting down on the Natural Instinct)?  I don't think the Natural Instinct range has any offal in it..


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## KarynK (11 April 2012)

Yes bone is an essential part of the diet, it provides nutrients, roughage and cleans the teeth.  You could try starting with chicken wings and keep hold of it while he eats if you are worried, so he chews it more or a bigger Turkey wing and let him get on with it!  The supermarket wings are very good as the chicken is younger and the bones softer.  I feed lamb ribs as well, they can be chopped into meal sized sections and the bit at the end of the ribs is more gristle than bone.  There are several companies that supply prepared raw diet on this thread, so you might feel more confident using them to start with.  Some supermarkets do stock packs if lamb bones at a very reasonable price.
Liver is the best offal nutrient wise and it is the one I feed most of because of the vitamins and minerals.  Green tripe gives your dog part digested plant matter, but the intestines themselves are not high in anything essential.  Hearts give them something to really chew on and again massages the gums and is good for the teeth, but is more a muscle than offal.
Chicken is the best meat and bone for dogs it has the highest number of nutrients and is softer bone wise.  Turkey bones can be a bit hard but Turkeys are on a par with chickens.  Rabbit is good especially if you can stomach feeding it intact with the skin on! Lamb is next in value then pork, which some dogs find too rich and lastly beef.  Beef bones are very hard and I don't feed them apart from oxtail when it is on offer.
Fish heads are good if they will eat them and some wont!

My staple is chicken with offal fed once a week,  sardines in tomato sauce with eggs now and again, muscle meat with liquidised veg once a week and lamb ribs once or twice a week depending on how many I've got in the freezer.


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## KarynK (11 April 2012)

Here you go these puppies made it to 12 years old and are still going strong!  Turkey wings in this case!


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## Cinnamontoast (11 April 2012)

Raw bones are fine, it's the cooked ones that are awful. Here's proof: Turkey drumstick:






Pig trotter:






My advice would be to start by smashing up a chicken wing so the bones are easier to chew. Hold the end so he doesn't inhale. You will most likely be amazed at the way in which he inhales them!


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## kerenza (17 May 2012)

I'm new to the RAW diet so will probably be here a lot with questions!

I started feeding the odd bone because I was concerned about my dog's teeth. They are looking so much better (in such a short amount of time) that it has really made me question what I am feeding her.

So I've started slowly with some chicken wings and lamb mince (plus the odd egg and a bit of tinned salmon) - so far, so good. She certainly likes it much better than her old kibble! (Arden Grange). I understand that offal is needed - so will try to get her some liver or kidneys asap.

I have to admit: feeding the chicken wings really scared me. She seemed to have no problem with them at all - however, I've had it so firmly drummed into me that bones are dangerous.

But chicken wings are OK aren't they? They seemed quite soft (from the supermarket). Are they also OK after freezing? Freezing doesn't affect the suppleness of the bone (as cooking does) at all?

And I assume chicken legs are also OK? (from the photos above of turkey drumstick chomping!!).

Is there anything I should really avoid? It is a bit tricky for me as I have very little understanding of meat, the cuts, bones, etc. I've been a vegetarian since I was 13 so don't really know what I'm doing (obviously I'm busy reading up - but the Internet often seems to contradict itself, being full as it is of so many opinions).

One thing I've noticed - my dog seems to be eating grass more than usual - could this mean anything?

All help and advice/reassurance greatly appreciated! My dog btw is a smallish collie x springer and weighs around 13 kilos.


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## Cinnamontoast (17 May 2012)

That's light for a collie x springer! 

Any part of the chicken including whole carcasses (available from decent butchers, most meat will be stripped off, a bit left, often come in trays of 15kg, for example) is fine. 

Freezing does not adversely affect chicken bones etc.

Grass eating is normal: my two youngsters eat quite a lot. 

The general rule is lay off weight bearing bones of ungulants i.e. cow leg bones. They are very dense and the dog may break a tooth. 

The usual ratio is 80:10:10 meat, bones, offal, although this is variable according to your dog and how he reacts. Introduce offal super slowly as it might provoke sloppy poo reactions, so tiny lumps to start. Liver is widely available in all supermarkets, kidneys too, especially Morrisons. 

Ask away, there are plenty of people with great ideas and experience on here.


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## EAST KENT (25 June 2012)

I would avoid turkey necks though,if your dog is a glutton like some of mine,one bitch swallowed it narrow end first ..so it stuck.Luckily I was right there  and soon had her upside down and did a hard manouvre on her chest..and out it popped.Never fed them again though.


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## Cinnamontoast (1 July 2012)

Advice for starting puppies on raw (or switching an older dog) from a lady who has raised a litter of malamutes on raw and still feeds all her dogs raw.

You need to start with one food, preferably chicken, mince, necks, wings, legs and carcasses. 

The bigger the portion to begin with the better as it can't be swallowed whole, as is the tendency for some new to raw in their haste. Once that meat is tolerated, say about one to one and a half weeks you can introduce another meat, perhaps tripe or rabbit and just go on from there. You will have to give a small portion of liver or kidney twice a week to start but just a small amount as liver can make them runny but it is an essential part of raw feeding as it has vitamins that other meats do not. If it isn't liked in the complete raw form it can be flash fried for around 30 seconds each time.

I can't help with weights as I don't go by them personally. I give what looks right in the bowl, remembering they don't need as much raw as commercial as all of it is used by their body with very little waste, hence the smaller poops. There are so many variations in a dogs requirement that the weight ratio is purely a guide and should not be a hard and fast rule. For instance in your case you have a growing puppy so I would slightly increase the amount you feed in each meal, if the pup seems ravenous after a feed then add just a little more. A working dogs of 40kgs would need more than an older less active pet of 40kgs, that's why the ratio is a guide only.

As the dog grows you'll be able to see what amount it needs, feeling for ribs and if it looks over weight. I currently have one of mine on a diet and have cut his meals by one third as he's laid on weight due to no off lead runs, now with field exercise and a short term diet he'll soon be back to his ideal weight. So the amount he was having which suited him well in winter now in summer is too much so I adjust it. I would find the weight thing so complicated with all the different sized dogs I have here and some who use more energy just by running around the house than others who go for long walks on lead.

You do need lots of meaty bones in her diet and Tom Lonsdale recommends the diet consists of around 60-70% of such. I raised a litter of eight Mal pups onto raw at three weeks of age and T-Bo from seven weeks with the method described above and all are fit healthy dogs, all of whom are still raw fed. I like my food from a supplier who gets it directly from the abattoir but you could start on raw from PAH, Prize Choice tripe chunks are very good as are the beef chunks but the beef are very expensive. The minces are a bit 'commercialised' as they are not very bloody and are quite an 'empty' kind of light mince, where as mince from my butcher for pets or from my supplier is heavy and more like real meat. You do not need any supplements or added vitamins as each meat contains many different forms, each is nutritionally unique.

FYI.
A little insight into different meats:
Beef is very high in good quality protein has less fat than other meats but is low in essential fatty acids. Chicken has lower protein than beef, lamb or pork but is high in essential fatty acids, it has low sodium and above average potassium, it is low in calcium, magnesium, iron and zinc. Beef should always be frozen before being fed to dogs as we have Neospora Caninum in some cattle stock in the UK, it's very rare but has been fatal to one dog over here. An Overview of Neospora Canium and Raw Food Diets I always freeze beef even if it's human grade just to be on the safe side, but you don't have to worry about it too much because it is very rare anyway. Lamb is high in fat and as it contains zinc also it is particularly good for the skin and skin conditions where other meats are not so good. For zinc deficient dogs lamb neck or shank contain the highest levels of zinc and along with the fat are the best cuts to feed. Pork is an excellent meat full of good quality protein, high in vits B1, 2 & 3, and high in the essential amino acid Taurine. We don't have to worry about Trichinosis in the UK as we don't have that disease in our stock, we do not have the Hydatids worm either. The total cholesterol in a lean piece of pork is actually lower than in chicken, chicken being one of the fattiest meats (including carcasses) you give your dog. Rabbit especially whole is obviously an excellent food as it contains everything a dog needs the head is particularly full of nutrients in the eyes and brains. Liver is an excellent source of many vitamins including all of the B vitamins, and vitamins A, C, D, E and K in great quantities it also has minerals Zinc, Manganese, Selenium and Iron. It has essential fatty acids both of the omega 3 and 6 type. Kidneys are high in fatty acids and vits A, D, E & K as well as iron and all the B vitamins. Brains supply protein, cholesterol, and most of the B vits. Hearts have high levels of the B vits and fatty acids.
So you see how important it is to vary the meats in a raw diet but it's nothing that is rocket science and so easy once you get the hang of it.

Hope this is useful.


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## CorvusCorax (7 July 2012)

I get 10kg for a fiver, I throw the bag at the ground repeatedly  seems to do the trick!!!


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## KarynK (8 July 2012)

Grass_Proof a cheap axe from B&Q is an invaluable tool for raw!  you can use the sharp end for older dogs to bash it about a bit and the blunt end to separate frozen stuff!!


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## NeverSayNever (8 July 2012)

ok so m thinking of ordering some natural instinct for my girlie and giving the occasional chicken wing for treats. 

I wondered how people deal with the hygiene issue of raw meat ? Do you feed in bowls and then wash after each feed? Those who feed off kennel floor etc are you not continually scrubbing? and with it having had raw meat on it does itnot have to be cleaned with proper antibac stuff?


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## NeverSayNever (8 July 2012)

Grass_Proof said:



			I feed it out in the garden on the grass - would never feed it indoors!
		
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I dont have that option though...  4 kennels, i cant let everyone out to feed in the garden, there would be all hell lol


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## Cinnamontoast (8 July 2012)

You can defrost carcasses enough to separate then refreeze for dogs, it will be fine.

I used to be really precious about the hygiene thing, spraying then wiping blah blah. I got bored and I'm not dead yet! 

The bowls are washed rarely  unless the neighour is checking on the boys during the day and she very obviously washes them and leaves them displayed  The dogs eat in the kitchen and are great at 'washing the floor'. 

I appreciate with a baby crawling round soon, you don't want to have raw meat slopping everywhere, so a quick wipe with a spray disinfectant and an efficient mop would probably be good. 

My three eat within feet of each other, no nonsense.


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## springtime13 (14 July 2012)

Right, I'm feeling a bit confused! I'm getting a lab x poodle (yeah a designer dog ) puppy in a couple of weeks, she'll be 10 weeks old then. She's been weaned onto burns mini bites. I lost my old dog to cancer and since doing a lot of research I want this pup to have the best diet ever  However, I confused because after reading this whole thread from start to finish, I've come away confused to whether I just bring her home and start RAW (I'm thinking the natural instincts puppy stuff to break me in gently, as I want her diet to be balanced and suitable for all the growing she has to do plus I've been a vegetarian for 21 years) or whether I wean her off the burns kibble slowly. What should I do? Is the natural instincts stuff good? Also, I'm very aware she will want plenty of chewy stuff to tide her over when I'm out the house doing the horses. What will keep her occupied and fulfil her need to occupy those little jaws? Thanks in advance for any help.


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## Cinnamontoast (16 July 2012)

Replace two out of four meals with natural instinct then start offering small chicken wings, bashed up, hold one end so she doesn't inhale. You can switch if you're going to use natural instinct pretty much over the course of a week or two until its all raw. It'll be tons cheaper to source from a supplier but I can understand as a vegetarian you might want to stick with ready made. 

For keeping her occupied, give her a stuffed and frozen kong, use her natural instinct food to stuff it. You could also popin chunks of carrots, cream cheese, bits of matteson's sausage, anything, really.


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## {97702} (22 July 2012)

What do you do with the bags which the meat comes in when you feed raw?  I put the empty bags in the outside dustbin (which is also used for dog poo!) but with the recent warm weather, and our council moving to fortnightly collections, I opened the bin the other day to find a thriving collection of maggots.....

I dont want the bags in the inside dustbin because they always have traces of meat/blood on them, and I dont want the hassle of the dogs constantly trying to get into the utility room to empty the dustbin?  Is it unfair to expect the bin men to put up with it?


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## CorvusCorax (22 July 2012)

Yeah, that's been an issue for us this week, I still just throw the bags in the black bin and try to ignore it  I am sure the binmen have to deal with maggots, it all goes into the truck and then into landfill anyway.


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## Cinnamontoast (22 July 2012)

Rinse out the bags. Simples!


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## {97702} (22 July 2012)

cinnamontoast said:



			Rinse out the bags. Simples!
		
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LOL, sadly I dont think I am that nice to the bin men to be faffing around doing that


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## Cinnamontoast (23 July 2012)

Picklenash said:



			LOL, sadly I dont think I am that nice to the bin men to be faffing around doing that 

Click to expand...

Mostly I'm not either! You could wrap them in a clean plastic bag so you avoid the maggot issue!


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## cremedemonthe (3 August 2012)

Or just scoop the maggots up with your fingers and chuck them in the fish pond for the fish, like I do!!


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## NeverSayNever (7 August 2012)

interesting reading the 'starting a puppy on raw' advice

the natural instinct working puppy complete contains -

British duck with bone (35%)
British chicken with bone (35%)
British beef heart (10%)
British beef liver (5%)
Butternut squash
Apples
Carrots
Spinach
Sea kelp
Scottish salmon oil



my pup is 8 weeks and is a little runny since going on this...  they do do a plain chicken puppy version and now im wondering if i should have started her on that instead but have a freezer full of the working puppy

just as an aside - i noticed someone previously in this thread said natural instinct doesnt contain offal - some of them do, just check the ingredients.


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## CarolineWilson (19 August 2012)

Scottish Salmon oil? That is interesting as I feed mine flax or linseed oil. I've been buying it from here:

http://www.pegasushealth.com/product/flax_oil_for_dogs

and it is amazing stuff! I see salmon oil recommended on other sites too but am quite happy with flax.


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## s4sugar (19 August 2012)

I don't often pop in here but deal with bloody wrappers by keeping a carrier bag in the dog freezer -put used wrappers into this & then bin just before collection.


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## kerenza (29 August 2012)

I have a query about allergies.

A few months ago, around about the time that I started feeding Holly raw, I started to notice a problem with her feet. At first it was just a bit of licking, chewing - that I thought might be down to her anal glands (which she has had problems with in the past). Trip to the vet who agreed, sorted glands and gave me some antibiotics.

Feet don't seem to have cleared up, however, and are now getting worse. I am preventing her from licking them at night (with socks) and have tried washing with hibiscrub and malaseb shampoo.

No improvement so I am off to the vets again later in the week.

The skin between her toes isn't infected or scabby or anything - but she has turned the fur pink/reddish with licking. The feet don't smell so don't think it is yeast. It is just on her feet - nowhere else. 

So I think it may be some sort of allergy - previous experience with these is that they are tricky!! My last dog had a reoccurring rash (twice a year) that numerous vets never really got a handle on - just used to have to treat the symptoms with steroids etc (which I'm not keen on using much in all honesty).

It could be a complete coincidence that problems occurred (or I first noticed them) around the time when she went onto a raw diet. I am walking her in a new area as have moved - much more walking through grassy fields and land with livestock rather than the usual cliff paths. I have wondered about a pollen allergy (I know my hayfever has been terrible this year!!).

But if it is the diet - any idea which food source it is likely to be? Is there a protein that dogs are more likely to be allergic to?

She eats a variety through the week: chicken and chicken wings, beef, lamb and pork mince, pilchards, green tripe and occasionally liver. A mixture of what is going cheap at the supermarket, freebies and cheap bits from my local butchers and also some Natural Instinct stuff which I have tried for the first time.

I'm really hoping it isn't diet related as she loves eating raw and seems beautifully healthy in other respects (teeth are looking great and she hasn't had any more anal gland problems since changing from dry food). But if the vet thinks that it could be this...what should I do? I guess feed her one thing and introduce others? Where should I start?!

Ideas, experiences would be really welcome

(Sorry for the really long post!)


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## Cinnamontoast (29 August 2012)

You'd only find the food were you to feed only one protein source for some time. It may well be the grass: can you ask for tests at the vet?


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## kerenza (30 August 2012)

How do the tests work? Are the really reliable?


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## {97702} (30 August 2012)

s4sugar said:



			I don\'t often pop in here but deal with bloody wrappers by keeping a carrier bag in the dog freezer -put used wrappers into this & then bin just before collection.
		
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Sorry about the delayed response s4sugar, I dont usually bother logging in to look in here, but thanks for this idea - brilliant


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## Cinnamontoast (30 August 2012)

kerenza said:



			How do the tests work? Are the really reliable?
		
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I think they're normally skin scrape tests. Ask s4sugar, Cayla or Aru, they're all vet nurses or vets.


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## {97702} (31 August 2012)

Another query please....

I\'ve always thought I couldnt feed my oldest girl on a raw diet because she has literally no teeth, and obviously cannot crunch bones.  I was speaking to my butcher today and he tells me that their chicken mince is the whole chicken minced, bones and all, so there is definitely bone content in there.

Would this be enough for me to feed a raw diet to my oldie?  My instinct says that minced bones wouldnt provide enough roughage in the diet for her; other than the minced chicken I feed tripe, heart, kidneys, tongue, and liver which I would cut up into small pieces for her.


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## CorvusCorax (31 August 2012)

Sounds fine with everything else on top. I feed the whole chicken mince as well, great stuff. Made the mistake of going into the back room where the mincing machine/bagging machine is the other week, puuuke!!!

I'm just feeding chicken carcass, minced chicken, tripe and, er, Happy Dog at the mo.


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## {97702} (31 August 2012)

Thanks CC   But sorry, nothing but nothing can compare to feeding tongues.......instant nausea....

Although I fed liver tonight and little white greyhound ended up looking like something out of a horror film, I had to clean her off with baby wipes   Blood gets everywhere...

Bugger, I have just ordered a bag of Skinners for oldest dog, I should have asked the question first


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## CorvusCorax (1 September 2012)

Did you see the nice picture I posted of the tongue?

















**don't look if squeamish**







I take a size 6 shoe


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## Cinnamontoast (1 September 2012)

Chicken mince with none will be fab (but do meander to that nice chicken factory and ask if they do it cheaper )

Oddly, for an ex veggie, I'm not bothered about chopping up lungs, plucking and chopping pigeons. Weird. I d find cutting a whole bunny in half a bit icky after someone said she chopped one only to find out it was pregnant


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## {97702} (1 September 2012)

CC that is gross, a cows tongue presumably?  The ones I feed are pigs, so just greyhound sized....

I havent ventured into rabbits yet CT as my yard managers OH hasnt been ferreting for ages!  I dont think they would bother me at all....I suppose time will tell


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## CorvusCorax (1 September 2012)

Yep, a big prickly cow's tongue. Bought five of the buggers and ended up giving them to a friend, I wasn't strong enough to cut them up and the pup runs to fat very easily so no chance was he getting a whole one!


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## {97702} (1 September 2012)

As you do...."hello friend, I happen to have 5 cows tongues going spare, would you like them?"  "well thank you CaveCanem, that is very nice of you, I will accept them with pleasure"


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## CorvusCorax (1 September 2012)

Hmm, something like that - your dog is recovering from an op, is living with a bucket on his head in case he eats himself and is very skinny, I have JUST the thing! Aren't I kind!!! And can you help me wrestle the buggers out of the freezer while you're at it...


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## Toffee44 (2 September 2012)

CaveCanem said:



			Did you see the nice picture I posted of the tongue?










**don't look if squeamish**







I take a size 6 shoe








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Dylan is officially jealous!!!


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## Odd Socks (5 September 2012)

sorry for the thread hijack and some of you may have seen my other thread so apologies if this is the wrong place to post.

So... I want to go RAW BUT... My dog is in renal failure AND from his renal prescription diet, he has got pancreatitis.  From what I've read on the internet it would be fairly easy to do a renal variation of RAW but with the added 'bonus' of pancreas problems, a lot of food has been crossed off as the two seem to contradict eachother and I am thoroughly perplexed!  Do any of the RAW guru's have any ideas on what I can feed to get him started?  

He needs: 

low quantity, high quality protein
low phosphorous
low fat (for pancreatitis)

so far I'm pretty sure he can have... egg whites
and definitely can't have...bones

as you can see, im an absolute RAW numpty (and vegetarian lol!)


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## KarynK (5 September 2012)

With the problems your dog has I would seek the advice of a holistic vet, their numbers are growing rapidly and most advocate some kind of raw diet, they would be your best bet to get the diet right.  You might well see an improvement after a while on the raw diet and at that point you might be able to introduce more foods, but with those problems Veterinary Guidance is your best bet.


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## NeverSayNever (11 September 2012)

Harlequin Jazz said:



			sorry for the thread hijack and some of you may have seen my other thread so apologies if this is the wrong place to post.

So... I want to go RAW BUT... My dog is in renal failure AND from his renal prescription diet, he has got pancreatitis.  From what I've read on the internet it would be fairly easy to do a renal variation of RAW but with the added 'bonus' of pancreas problems, a lot of food has been crossed off as the two seem to contradict eachother and I am thoroughly perplexed!  Do any of the RAW guru's have any ideas on what I can feed to get him started?  

He needs: 

low quantity, high quality protein
low phosphorous
low fat (for pancreatitis)

so far I'm pretty sure he can have... egg whites
and definitely can't have...bones

as you can see, im an absolute RAW numpty (and vegetarian lol!)
		
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i know i sound like a salesperson for them, but honestly im not. Give Natural Instinct a call and ask for their advice - they do complete raw packages and Id bet money they will bend over backwards to help your dog.


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## jennywren07 (18 September 2012)

hi, i'm thinking about going RAW with out 2 dogs but struggling to get my head round it a bit.

We have a lab x (apparently shes 5 but looks much older -rescue) and a staff whos 3. The lab has a stupidly sensitive stomach and we've tried literally eveything with her in the way of wet/dry food. The only thing that doesnt go straight through her is wagg but i hate feeding it coz its rubbish and she doesnt hold her weight on it. The staff is a "good doer" with guts of steel lol.

So what do i feed them chicken? beef? 
whole? asin literally a whole chicken?
and how much?! 
also are they likely to fight more over meat than they do dry food? i've got a toddler and although shes kept out of the way i dont really want scrapping dogs every meal time!


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## {97702} (26 September 2012)

jennywren07 said:



			So what do i feed them chicken? beef? 
whole? asin literally a whole chicken?
and how much?! 
also are they likely to fight more over meat than they do dry food? i've got a toddler and although shes kept out of the way i dont really want scrapping dogs every meal time!
		
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I go to a butchers which has its own abattoir next door, so I stock up once a month on chicken carcasses, minced tripe, chicken mince (which is the whole chicken, bones and all, minced up), hearts, kidneys and tongues (all from pigs I believe).  The usual guide is to feed 2 - 3% of the dogs body weight per day, feeding 80% meat, 10% bone and 10% offal (kidneys, liver etc) over the course of a week.

As for fighting, well I have found that my 4 greyhounds are much more likely to fight over raw food.  My smallest greyhound had severe food aggression when I got her 4 years ago as she was a starvation case when she was rescued, but this wore off after 6-12 months when she realised she would be fed regularly   Since I changed them all to a raw diet the food aggression has come back, even though she is a perfect weight, still fed regularly etc.  

I would have thought two dogs would be quite easy to manage, but I do find that four are a little more difficult


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## liveryblues (28 September 2012)

jennywren07 said:



			hi, i'm thinking about going RAW with out 2 dogs but struggling to get my head round it a bit.

We have a lab x (apparently shes 5 but looks much older -rescue) and a staff whos 3. The lab has a stupidly sensitive stomach and we've tried literally eveything with her in the way of wet/dry food. The only thing that doesnt go straight through her is wagg but i hate feeding it coz its rubbish and she doesnt hold her weight on it. The staff is a "good doer" with guts of steel lol.

So what do i feed them chicken? beef? 
whole? asin literally a whole chicken?
and how much?! 
also are they likely to fight more over meat than they do dry food? i've got a toddler and although shes kept out of the way i dont really want scrapping dogs every meal time!
		
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Jenny  I have a 2 year old lab who had a v sensitive stomache beore he came to us (rehomed him at 1year) apparently everything went through him   All my other are raw fed so the  lab was going to be too  He has never had an upset stomache on raw Chicken carcasses are best.. speak to your local butchers of phone around. I think a whole (meat on chicken) would make then fat V quick! 
If your not to confident in sourcing all the stuff youself you could try one of the raw feed specialists that get recommended on here?
My lab gets 1 chicken carcass for breakfast and 1 in the eve. 3 or 4 times a week I sibstitute the carcass for either liver, heart, fish. raw carrots as treats, raw eggs cracked onto meat or by themselves (they eat the shell aswell)
If your dogs put weight on, cut back, if they lose weight up it a bit 
edited to add I am careful at feed time. the younger two eat in their crates, the older two in the kitchen, if they were all toegether is would be carnage lol


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## PorkChop (10 October 2012)

Hi all, well so far so good, however I was wondering if I could have some help please.

Two of my dogs are refusing to eat the offal I have offered them.  So far I have tried them with liver and kidney.

What do you think would be the best type of offal to try them on next?  Recently I had a couple of sheep slaughtered for the freezer and if I remember rightly they did eat the lung and possibly the tongue.

I haven't asked at my butcher's yet if these are readily available.  How often should they be having offal per week and how important is it to the balance of their diet?  Does anyone have any tips to tempt them?


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## Cinnamontoast (10 October 2012)

Flash fry offal to makeit more appetising or stick in the oven on a very low heat for hours and use as treats instead of commercial biscuits etc.

The ratio is 10:10:80 offal, bones, meat. Some dogs don't tolerate offal and a runny bum ensues (I load them up if poo is too hard/chalky) 

The older dog I swapped to raw aged 7 is not at all keen and needs to think the youngsters will eat it for him to go near it. 

Tongue and lung can be tricky to source but there are plenty of online suppliers (eg DAF) who will deliver it.


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## PorkChop (11 October 2012)

cinnamontoast said:



			Flash fry offal to makeit more appetising or stick in the oven on a very low heat for hours and use as treats instead of commercial biscuits etc.

The ratio is 10:10:80 offal, bones, meat. Some dogs don't tolerate offal and a runny bum ensues (I load them up if poo is too hard/chalky) 

The older dog I swapped to raw aged 7 is not at all keen and needs to think the youngsters will eat it for him to go near it. 

Tongue and lung can be tricky to source but there are plenty of online suppliers (eg DAF) who will deliver it.
		
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Thank you, I will try it cooked


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## PorkChop (12 October 2012)

Me again 

We are going away for a few days, and the person looking after my dogs is a bit worried about getting their diet right.

What do you all do when you go away?  My options are, bag up each dogs raw diet in bags, or put them onto something like Fish4Dogs for the days that I am away?

Thank you


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## Cinnamontoast (12 October 2012)

Bag up individual meals.


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## Oberon (12 October 2012)

Just to let you all know - I have been feeding frozen Raw exclusively for almost a year now.

It was a convenience thing at first, but also he seems to prefer stuff straight from the freezer .

I was concerned that it wasn't healthy long term but I've had no health problems so far.

He will also eat any offal happily when it's frozen .


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## goatbabies (16 November 2012)

Loving this thread, CinnamonToast got me into this the other day when I posted about my fussy eater - now I'm hooked! Well, she hasn't eaten any raw chicken yet, but I'm sure she won't go much longer without eating so I'm not too worried. 

I only have one question (after spending over an hour reading this ENTIRE thread from start to finish haha)... what is offal???


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## NeverSayNever (16 November 2012)

i started out with natural instinct as its preprepared and balanced in a handy wee tub

now because its so pricey, ive found a local supplier of meat and get 1 lb blocks of chicken tripe or lamb mince (with bone) for 50p. i keep a tub of mixed fruit&veg, the odd bit of natural youghurt, egg or cottage cheese handy too. They all get chicken wings to chew and still get antler chews as they love them Dogs are thriving.


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## PorkChop (20 November 2012)

Any tips on starting a puppy on raw?  Have been really pleased with all my adult dogs condition on raw so wanted to get puppy on it as soon as possible.

She is a 9 week old Rottweiler puppy.  She came with some Royal Canin puppy food from the breeder , so I haven't carried on with that.  I have been feeding her soaked Fish4dogs working this week.  I wouldn't say she is wolfing it down  and she is far more interested in the other dog's raw 

How do you introduce bones, and should I add an egg?  I am aware that because she is a large breed I want slow growth.

If anyone can be of help - especially cinnamontoast  - I would really appreciate it


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## NeverSayNever (20 November 2012)

LJR said:



			Any tips on starting a puppy on raw?  Have been really pleased with all my adult dogs condition on raw so wanted to get puppy on it as soon as possible.

She is a 9 week old Rottweiler puppy.  She came with some Royal Canin puppy food from the breeder , so I haven't carried on with that.  I have been feeding her soaked Fish4dogs working this week.  I wouldn't say she is wolfing it down  and she is far more interested in the other dog's raw 

How do you introduce bones, and should I add an egg?  I am aware that because she is a large breed I want slow growth.

If anyone can be of help - especially cinnamontoast  - I would really appreciate it 

Click to expand...

tbh i feed my pup still on the natural instinct pre-prepared raw puppy food (working puppy)..  just because i want to make absolutely sure she is getting exactly the right stuff. I just started her on it at 8 weeks.


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## NeverSayNever (20 November 2012)

what do people find is the best meat for getting weight on?  green tripe? lamb? duck?


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## CorvusCorax (20 November 2012)

Tripe. Speaking of duck, there is Duck raw complete food, it's great for putting on condition, a pup I know was emaciated a few weeks ago but now looks like a big fat shiny seal - but it is pricey.


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## NeverSayNever (21 November 2012)

CaveCanem said:



			Tripe. Speaking of duck, there is Duck raw complete food, it's great for putting on condition, a pup I know was emaciated a few weeks ago but now looks like a big fat shiny seal - but it is pricey.
		
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many thanks

NI do a duck raw complete, is that the one you mean or is there another one?


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## CorvusCorax (22 November 2012)

It's a brand:

http://pawfectk9.co.uk/duck-dog-food

http://www.berriewoodwholesale.co.uk/det/292/DUCK-Complete-Excellent-8x1Kg/

Everyone I know who feeds it raves about it, I fed it for a while and it is brilliant, good Kong stuffer and you can feed it from your pockets if you're that way inclined  but price and getting it here didn't really make it viable.


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## NeverSayNever (23 November 2012)

CaveCanem said:



			It's a brand:

http://pawfectk9.co.uk/duck-dog-food

http://www.berriewoodwholesale.co.uk/det/292/DUCK-Complete-Excellent-8x1Kg/

Everyone I know who feeds it raves about it, I fed it for a while and it is brilliant, good Kong stuffer and you can feed it from your pockets if you're that way inclined  but price and getting it here didn't really make it viable.
		
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interesting! thanks for the link will go off and google some more.. interested in why is has grains in it?


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## NeverSayNever (23 November 2012)

just to update - having stared on NI complete tubs and then progressed to sourcing local blocks of tripe/lamb/chicken and doing my own... Im back on NI Im afraid. Yes the stuff was 50p a 500g block and NI is £1.90 per KG for working chicken which is on special at the mo. However Im much more confident feeding the NI... I know its decent quality, it has the veg in it and its been  prepared to current hygiene standards. Whereas the other stuff meant i could not help but get blood on my hands and generally make a mess, plus I am not convinced its not just sweepings off the floor. On the same amounts my lot started to lose weight too.


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## kajabe (26 November 2012)

My 6yr old Chocolate Labrador has such a soft mouth - he can only just peirce the skin of a cherry tomato, and he cant eat a slice of bread- it has to be cut up into smaller pieces! 
How would I feed him the RAW diet if he has a very very very soft mouth?


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## CorvusCorax (26 November 2012)

NSN, the makers would say the grains imitate stomach contents of prey animals.

Kajabe, the chicken mince I get is whole minced chickens, so bone included and I think Natural Instinct do a few bone-in ranges too, including puppy ranges which are ground even smaller, so that would be a good way in.


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## NeverSayNever (26 November 2012)

thanks CC


yes, all the natural instinct ranges have the bone minced through


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## [100855] (27 November 2012)

My 9 year old lab is like a different dog now he is on raw food. It took a while to find a butcher that didnt look at me like I had 2 heads when I went in there.

 Now I get huge bags of chicken carcasses from my local butcher usually with neck and wings still attached weighing about 10kg's + for £2. 

I get some sandwich bags, put 2 carcasses in each bag and a small handfull of mixed veg sometimes and freeze them all. 

Sometimes I will feed heart, liver, sardines, raw carrot etc. 

My 9 year old lab has gone from a fat unhealthy lethargic, itchy boy to a dog who is happy, less arthritic, sprightly and he has lost about 6kg's. He gets 2 chicken carcasses for breakfast chucked out in the garden and he enjoys comping away on them for a few minutes. 

The vet said WOW when he walked in for his annual vaccination at how different he looked..His teeth are pearly white.
I would now never go back to biscuits, I cringe when I look at the prices of cereal dog food now.

Just stick with it.. my lab didnt know what to do with a raw chicken quarter when I first gave it to him so i just ripped at some of the flesh for him and he soon got the idea.


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## Cinnamontoast (28 November 2012)

angeldarcy said:



			Just stick with it.. my lab didnt know what to do with a raw chicken quarter when I first gave it to him so i just ripped at some of the flesh for him and he soon got the idea.
		
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Sorry, completely hilarious visual image there!!


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## NeverSayNever (16 December 2012)

well ive just put in an order to Berriewood to try their meats - am still trying to cut down on the cost of feeding NI Ive ordered a small amount of both types - their BARF and Berriewood premium. Admittedly Im still confused even though i rang them   I dont really understand the difference between the 2 products - apparently the BARF range is courser and the idea isyou add their herb powder mix to it (wont be doing that) and the Premium rang is more retail friendly and nicer packaged - although they are the same price. I also found there are no clear list of ingredients or analysis  on the products. When I asked I was told yes some of the meat contains bone and some doesnt. The first time I rang and they told me all the poultry based ones have 10% bone - I rang again and spoke to someone else who said they (as in the company) didnt know what the bone content was only that the poultry based ones are minced with the bone in. 

Also looked at rawtogo  and now even more confused as they dont recommend any veg at all and do 80 10 10 ratio of meat bone and offal..  claiming this is correct.

Whereas a lot of the NI 'complete' tubs dont have ANY offal in them, but have veg.

Confused.com


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## Cinnamontoast (16 December 2012)

Don't seethe point of veg personally. I don't sweat the bone ratio too much, I go by poo. eek


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## NeverSayNever (17 December 2012)

I'm finding lots of answers here
http://rawfed.com/myths/

however Id be interested to know how credible the info is ?Does anyone know?

cheers


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## Cinnamontoast (21 December 2012)

NeverSeenSanta said:



			I'm finding lots of answers here
http://rawfed.com/myths/

however Id be interested to know how credible the info is ?Does anyone know?

cheers
		
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Jeez, which bit? There's lots! I have to say that all raw feeders I talk to have found their own way eventually re ratios, myths, bone issues, what to feed etc. I don't personally feed veg-unless it's liquidised, it's of no use and looking at their teeth, I think dogs should have a meat/bone based diet. If they're not getting what's right, it should be fairly obvious. 

Looking at my three, the big dog has dropped his weight, at long last, cos I can really ensure that he only gets what he needs with regards to calories-commercial food doesn't lend itself to diets! The werewolf is calm and can concentrate and I reckon Bear would be massivley allergic to commercial cereal based foods. We've had recent skin issues with him and had to emply sulphur in a big way!


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## moppett (27 December 2012)

I cant get my dog to shift some much needed weight! She has been cut down so that she must be surviving on thin air!


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## NeverSayNever (27 December 2012)

moppett said:



			I cant get my dog to shift some much needed weight! She has been cut down so that she must be surviving on thin air! 

Click to expand...

what breed is she ? how old? if spayed, how recently and what , exactly, does she get in 24 hours?


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## moppett (27 December 2012)

She is a podenco. Will have had her a year in January. She was pretty emaciated when I first got her from Spain but now too far the other way and can't shift it. She was spayed last summer. In the morning she has 4/5 pieces of JWB kibble in a bowl (just a token as my parents dog gets breakfast and its routine) and then dinner she will have something like one raw sardine or a lamb heart or lamb kidney or two little necks. Perhaps once a week she will have a trotter or something as she loves them and it occupies her for hours. I've just started clicker training as she is very timid and has no confidence, but even then the treat will just be her kidney for dinner cut up into little pieces. Shes 21.8kgs at the moment. 

This is her a year ago 







this was taken in the past week (i know you can't see how chubby she is in the pink coat but look at the neck rolls!!)







and this was taken last night







Mulled wine and mince pies on offer for any/all advice!


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## s4sugar (27 December 2012)

My guess would be an extra meal while you are out.


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## NeverSayNever (27 December 2012)

yup - i bet she is getting more somehow. But also, its worth thinking about  the fact that lamb is very high in fat so not the best choice for weight loss. Try a meat like turkey instead which is very lean. Id cut out the kibble as it isnt ideal to feed both and give her approx 300g of turkey mince split into 2 feeds, so 150g each feed. Then she can have her trotter or turkey neck a couple of times a week in addition. I based that on her ideal weight being about 18kg but its just a guess from looking at her. If you really are sticking to a strict diet and she is getting plenty of exercise and no weight comes off id get the vet to check her for a medical reason.


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## moppett (27 December 2012)

My mum does doggie day care for me whilst I'm at work....so maybe she is feeding her during the day. She must be as I can't for the life of me work out how she is still gaining weight despite me feeding her less and cycling her miles!I have a freezer full of assorted raw food to get through... I'd been laying off all of the chicken portions I've got as I thought they'd be pretty high in calories? But yes they'd be low in fat....and as off tomorrow I'll try feeding raw twice a day but it is going to be hard to split already small meals in half *out comes the cleaver*..fingers crossed feeding her twice will stop her getting too hungry and indulging in her worst habit which is eating cat poo from the flower beds.


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## NeverSayNever (27 December 2012)

lamb is way higher in fat than chicken


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## gunnergundog (28 December 2012)

Moppett.......the chicken you have in your freezer sounds fine for your podenco;  if you do decide to feed turkey as previously suggested do NOT feed the skin.....too much can cause pancreatitis.

Not sure if yours is a spanish rescue or how you've come by him, but just bear in mind that some of these dogs from abroad will have survived off VERY little for a long time and their metabolisms will have adapted accordingly.  I don't know enough about the breed to advise but I know that they are used for catching rabbits and wonder if they would traditionally have been fed off the carcasses/bits that the humans didn't want.  If so, bear in mind that rabbit has no fat whatsoever!!

Veg is VERY good for a dog like yours.......it can serve as a low calorie filler! Can feed up to 10%.

If exercise is of a good level, diet is 100% tight then do start thinking about vet and possibly thyroid.


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## moppett (31 December 2012)

Thanks Gunnergundog - you're right she survived off so little for such a long time I think she can live off very little. Feeding raw twice a day is going well, even if its just a token smallish breakfast. This morning she had a carrot, a manky corn on the cob, drumstick part of a chicken portion (probably more than 10%) She loves fruit and veg looked delighted that breakfast took longer than all of 2 seconds to eat! My mum is on holiday for the next two weeks - so no sneaky extras. Will let you know when I can see ribs!


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## KarynK (1 January 2013)

I would up the bone content that is their natural filler, if you can change to boned out carcasses or wings this will still fill her up but with less flesh to gain weight a there is quite a bit of flesh on the legs.  If you feed lamb feed rib bones or pork ribs again where there is less flesh and more bone.


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## moppett (2 January 2013)

I've been wondering about this as I have loads of necks and not very meaty bones in the freezer but I am worried about her getting constipated and straining?


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## AntxGeorgiax (2 January 2013)

Might seem stupid, but I have always been very strongly advised against feeding chicken bones as they shatter, are sharp and can really mess with the internal organs of a dog. This goes for all poultry, some pork bones (like ribs) and fish (unless tinned) this too, is backed up by the vet who has seen countless cases of dogs (and cats) eating poultry bones (especially chicken) and choking, scratching/ripping open windpipe and some do not survive.


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## CorvusCorax (2 January 2013)

**Cooked **chicken bones splinter. Raw chicken bones are very soft and malleable.


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## moppett (2 January 2013)

AntxGeorgiax I'd recommend you had a little experiment with raw bones - be it lamb ribs or chicken carcasses, I for one, have never been able to get them to splinter. Next time you have a roast chicken however, just feel how sharp the drumstick part of the leg is once broken in half. Entirely different to raw bones.


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## CorvusCorax (2 January 2013)

And get 'THE' vet to do it as well


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## moppett (2 January 2013)

On  another note, if your dog vomited every time you gave him/her a raw sardine would you stop feeding them? I've given mine raw sardines perhaps 6/7 times and she has been sick maybe 4 of those times? But not until about 6 hours afterwards (last night i fed her one with an egg at 5/6pm and she was sick at bedtime at 11.00ish) - coincidence?


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## Cinnamontoast (4 January 2013)

I'd feed half a sardine on its own and see what happens. One of mine won't eat raw fish.

Can you get sprats? Got loads from Tesco recently, they're a good small size.


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## LearnerLou (6 January 2013)

Hi all

Firstly, WOW, what an excellent source of info this forum is 

I'm just about to take the plunge and switch my 3.5 year old lab bitch to Raw. GULP. She's been on Burns up until yesterday, so not the worst quality food in the world, but clearly not the best option either. She's had reoccurring ear infections for some time now, her ears improved when we changed her onto Burns from a poorer quality kibble, and now I'm hoping an outright change to a better quality diet might help us tackle these infections once and for all. 

So, she had her last bowl of Burns yesterday, and then today I've prepared her some cooked chicken breast with veggies to last her today and tomorrow. This is just to bridge the gap to give me time to work out exactly what I'm supposed to feed her and to get to the butchers to buy it...

Now then, I wonder if any of you more experienced folk could advise on a couple of things... It's all a tad overwhelming! 

Firstly, could anyone check my calculations re quantity of raw food she should be having. She weighs 30k, so based on 2-3% of body weight, I make it 600 - 900g? Am I working that out correctly? And if so, it seems quite a large range, should I just aim for the middle and then adjust down the line depending on how she's doing weight wise?

And then secondly, I'm understanding that chicken is a good one to start them off on for the first 2 weeks. Do I literally just buy in some chicken and put 750g in her feed bowl? Is it as simple as that?! Would i be best going with wings, legs, thighs, other? Should I give her anything with it? She loves veggies and natural yoghurt... Or are the additions just personal preference?

And when people mention chicken carcass, is this just a stripped down chicken?! Do you just hand them the whole thing? 

Sorry about the basic beginner questions, I just want to make sure we get off to the very best start. It all seems so foreign to us in this household at the moment, we hadn't even heard of a raw diet until a few was ago, and don't know a single person who feeds it! Really grateful for any pointers... 

Many thanks
Lou


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## moppett (7 January 2013)

Hi! Welcome to the forum. Feeding raw might seem really daunting but once you realize it really is as simple as it sounds then you wont look back! I would start with chicken portions - so the leg and thigh (i usually go to the freezer aisle in tescos or sainsburys and buy a 2kg bag of cheap chicken portions). Don't cut it up and just give it to her whole. I would stick with chicken for a week just so her stomach doesn't get overwhelmed with lots of different types of protein.

Chicken carcass is just whats left once the meat has been taken off, so the back, sternum, etc. and yup you can just throw it to them whole. Bear in mind that it would constitute as a bone meal so the next meal more meaty (or whatever works for you, just consider the 80:10:10 ratio - which isn't actually as rigid as you'd think so long as you've got a minimum of 5% liver) 

My dogs on a diet so to save her bowl looking empty I do give carrots, apples, etc. from time to time - plus i figure her chasing a cored apple around the floor is a good workout! Some people feed yoghurt - I don't feed much other than occasionally in a KONG as dogs don't do well with too much lactose, though in moderation its fine. 

Consider finding a raw food supplier that can deliver to you if you have the freezer space for it, it does often work out cheaper than the supermarket but I often go months on stuff I have picked out the reduced pile at the supermarket. There is a useful link on petforums.co.uk

Have fun discovering all the cuts of meat and bits of animal that your lab will love!


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## LearnerLou (7 January 2013)

Thank you ever so much! Have got some chicken quarters to kick things off tomorrow, going to keep her on that for a week and gradually add variety. Feel v nervous, how odd! Worried she's going to look at me like I've gone crazy! Really hope she enjoys it bless her. Will post an update.


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## moppett (9 January 2013)

Does anyone have any suggestions about stuffing KONGS? 

I feed raw, but don't feed mince - so I'm pretty stuck.....short of hammering in a chicken portion into the hole?


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## s4sugar (9 January 2013)

moppett said:



			Does anyone have any suggestions about stuffing KONGS? 

I feed raw, but don't feed mince - so I'm pretty stuck.....short of hammering in a chicken portion into the hole?
		
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Chop liver and smear it around the Kong's inside. Freeze and feed from the freezer.


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## Cinnamontoast (26 January 2013)

Happy dogs!


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## Arizahn (3 February 2013)

Can anyone here suggest a good butcher in the Belfast area of Northern Ireland? (Preferably one that will not laugh me out of the shop.)

Have been feeding the freeflow mince from Pets At Home, along with bones and offal from the supermarket - not ideal economically! Have four to feed, though my brother in law supplies us with the occasional freebie when he goes shooting.


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## CorvusCorax (4 February 2013)

Arizahn said:



			Can anyone here suggest a good butcher in the Belfast area of Northern Ireland? (Preferably one that will not laugh me out of the shop.)

Have been feeding the freeflow mince from Pets At Home, along with bones and offal from the supermarket - not ideal economically! Have four to feed, though my brother in law supplies us with the occasional freebie when he goes shooting.
		
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Check your PMs


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## Arizahn (5 February 2013)

Thank you! That's a big drop in expenditure...you just know the extra cash will still end up going on the dogs anyway, lol!


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## Identityincrisis (28 March 2014)

Hi All

I have been reading this thread with interest but wanted to pick some brains if that's ok? As this is all very new to me.

I have 2 Basset Hounds, both 8 yrs old (unrelated) Molly has recently been diagnosed with Pancreatitis. She has had a couple of chronic bouts that have passed within a couple of hours but she has just suffered from a massive acute attack (we presume it is the Pancreatitis, the vets are a bit bamboozled) in which she has been hospitalised and operated on (investigative which found nothing of interest) She is still recovering but I was considering changing her diet when everything has stabilised, the vet advised to take her off the Chappie dried food diet she was on as this was probably an inflammatory factor and put her on the tinned version, but she had this massive acute attack while on the tinned version.  My worry is, the Pancreatitis diet needs to be low fat (she isn't fat, very trim and healthy) is the RAW diet high in fat?

My other Basset is a very sickly animal and has terrible skin conditions, I feel she would benefit hugely from this diet. 

Any thoughts would be greatly received, I would ask the vet but I find, as with horse vets, they are swung by 'big' food companies and don't always consider alternative options


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## PorkChop (28 March 2014)

I can't help with regards to a diet specifically for dogs with Pancreatitis, but the lovely thing about a raw diet is that you can make it what you want.

So for example if you want a low fat diet stick to lean meats, and feed more bone.

I am lucky, in that my Vets are happy with my dogs raw diet, however they wouldn't be able to advise me on it!


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## Teaselmeg (28 March 2014)

My dog had Pancreatitis and she is raw fed ( we think she found something very high fat on a walk). She started on Chappie TINNED, which is low fat and then after a month on that she was back on raw, she is now on either Nutriment Low Purine or Natural Instinct Special Diet. Both are low fat raw mixes and are designed for dogs who have had pancreatitis and other similar issues.


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## Cinnamontoast (28 March 2014)

Chappie dry contains BHT/BHA, known carcinogenics  

The levels of fat in raw food varies. Lamb is very fatty, tripe very much less so. Allergies often disappear if you use raw, but go slowly, introduce one type of meat first for a few days then another to check for reactions. Go super slow with offal which may cause runny poo!


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## Identityincrisis (29 March 2014)

Thanks everyone for the replies, it's scary looking to change as I don't want to cause another episode like the one she is recovering from


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## Cinnamontoast (29 March 2014)

Just go super slowly, start with one type of food, stick with it, don't try to throw loads of stuff at her quickly.


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## Cinnamontoast (24 September 2014)

Very happy to see this back. Shall I kick start it with a pic??

Happy 11 year dog:


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## PorkChop (24 September 2014)

Yay  well done you for making it happen


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## RockinRudolph (24 September 2014)

LJR said:



			Yay  well done you for making it happen 

Click to expand...

^^^^ this! Thanks CT!


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## Cinnamontoast (24 September 2014)

*Bows* But it's not all over yet!


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## C1airey (25 September 2014)

Hello!

Been HHO lurker for a while and have just found this thread - apologies if this has been covered above, my laptop died part-way through and I may have missed some posts in the middle... We recently got a JRX puppy who's always been fed raw but I'm struggling a bit. All the information for feeding quantities seem to be for big, adult dogs. I keep finding conflicting advice about whether to feed him 3% or 10% of predicted adult weight. Either way, it feels like at the moment, he's not eating enough or enough variety.

Puppy has started being rather fussy. If one of the cats did this, I'd let them get hungry enough to eat whatever I put in front of them. I'm not quite brave enough to do this with a puppy though. Am I just being soft? He flat-out refuses all chicken and isn't much better with turkey, lamb or rabbit. The only thing he will eat is tripe and occasionally beef mince. While I'm glad there's something he definitely will eat, the smell of tripe first thing in the morning is putting a serious strain on my own digestive tract...

Also, out of interest, has anyone gone down the raw food route with their cat?


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## Cinnamontoast (25 September 2014)

10% of projected adult weight, dropping to 3% or more or less when adult. Try a variety and only a tiny bit at a time to tempt him. I find shoving salmon oil on (try Ouron-cheapest I can find and recommended by someone else on here) helps no end with making them eat new food and adding weight. Up the amount of whatever he will eat. 

I know people who feed their cats raw, but I think it's more fish based, I think.


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## C1airey (25 September 2014)

cinnamontoast said:



			Up the amount of whatever he will eat.
		
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Erm... buttons, socks, slugs, snails (mmm, crunchy!), shredded paper, cardboard boxes, cat litter, grass, OH's socks (only the smelly ones)... Frankly, anything will go down the hatch except food!

But seriously, thanks for this, esp. the salmon oil hint. Having now read a bit about it, maybe it will also solve his slight itchiness?

Seeing as I have a freezer full of food the dog won't eat, it would make sense to put the cats on raw. I assume it's the same for cats re: not mixing kibble and meat? Happily, the cats love chicken, lamb, beef, rabbit, etc. They both hate fish *sigh*


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## Cinnamontoast (25 September 2014)

Watch out for slugs and snails, lumgworm is on the rise. Make sure you worm with something that covers lungworm!


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## Danny Vet (9 October 2014)

Hi DaisyDuke, 

Raw food diets in general are a bad idea.  Some people get away with it and many dogs cope okay, but dogs are prone to getting gut infections from meat the same way humans are.  It sounds natural but freshly killed meat that wolves would eat haven't been through an abattoir and sat on a supermarket shelf for several days.  Dogs can pick up Salmonella and E. coli infections as humans would if they ate raw meat.  Bones can get stuck in the back of the throat or perforate gut and require surgery to remove, this is really common.  Obviously when asking a question about raw food diets the type of people who feed it are going to be very anti-dog food companies.  It is true that you shouldn't buy the cheapest supermarket brand dog food as that is like feeding junk food to your children all the time.  However, a good quality COMPLETE diet from a good company like Hills, Royal Canin, James Wellbeloved and others are very good quality ingredients, a balanced diet and good for their teeth.  Veterinary nutritionists and scientists spend many years and millions of pounds developing these diets, it would be very difficult to source the variety of ingredients to give a balanced diet like this.  Also, it saves you having to cook something different for your dog every day, just open the bag and it's done!


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## Leo Walker (9 October 2014)

Danny Vet said:



			Hi DaisyDuke, 
Also, it saves you having to cook something different for your dog every day, just open the bag and it's done!
		
Click to expand...

Your entire post seems to be absolute nonsense, but quite apart from that, you dont cook raw food. Even if you did, feeding dry food just because you only have to open a bag isnt really the way you should think about it. Its also incredibly easy to source. I get a delivery once a month, direct to my door that is usually made up of 8 or 10 different meat types. The dry food you mention doesn't contain that, the actual meat content is tiny


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## C1airey (9 October 2014)

Danny Vet said:



			just open the bag and it's done!
		
Click to expand...

Or, just open the fridge. You were headed that way anyway for your own tea...

In other news, puppy back to normal, meals inhaled in blink of an eye, food bowl left so clean it squeaks. &#9786;&#65039;


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## blackcob (9 October 2014)

Danny Vet said:



			HVeterinary nutritionists and scientists spend many years and millions of pounds developing these diets, it would be very difficult to source the variety of ingredients to give a balanced diet like this.
		
Click to expand...

Okay, I'll bite. 

Here are the ingredients of a premium branded dry diet sold by my veterinary practice:

Maize, poultry meat meal (chicken min. 31%), rice, cellulose, animal fat, digest, pea bran meal, dried whole egg, vegetable oil, potassium chloride, flaxseed, salt, dicalcium phosphate. 

Here is what my dogs have been fed in the last two weeks:

Chicken, lamb, beef, pork, beef tripe, oily fish, venison, duck, rabbit, pheasant, heart/liver/kidney/trachea (of various creatures), whole eggs, peas, carrots, blackberry, apple, blueberry, swede, potatoes, rice. All various combinations of minced, bone in/out, pieces on the bone, whole carcass, frozen, chilled, warmed/cooked, tinned. 

What was your point about variety?! 

Also I have seen some really grotty dentals this week on pets fed premium dry veterinary diets so ner, have some anecdata.


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## Cinnamontoast (9 October 2014)

Surely not a real vet?! Although advocating Hills, Royal Canin etc, I wouldn't be amazed. Both brands are composed of remnants, IMO. I know vets only receive about half a day's training on nutrition for all species. Sorry, but many years and many people have gone the raw route because their pets seem to benefit. 

The poster did realise this thread is for those who wish to feed raw, surely? Ooh, let me link the dry food index so we can be amazed at the loveliness of the 'foods' mentioned! :

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?570172-The-Dry-Dog-Food-Index


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## ribbons (10 October 2014)

My vet tried to suggest a complete food, preferably one sold by them.
Then wanted me to buy bottles of chicken flavoured water (at £8 a bottle of 500ml) so the dog would drink more. I pointed out that as she had a raw diet she didn't need the same amount of fluid as the dry kibble fed dog and she was drinking plenty enough.

They also tried to tell me slugs and snails suffered from lung worm, hence the danger.
After explaining to them that lung worm was CARRIED by slugs and snails, mostly picked up from fox poo, I moved vets.

Sadly the days of vets being primarily the healer of animals is long gone. We are now dealing with first and foremost a business. Its hard work not being able to take your vets word as fact anymore. You have to try to work through the sales pitch to work out what is necessary and what is not.

Thankfully my current vet understands I only want them to treat injury or illness.

I don't need chicken water or teeth hygiene products. Mainly because my dog eats a natural diet, a raw one.


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## Cinnamontoast (10 October 2014)

What the devil is chicken water?!


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## ribbons (11 October 2014)

You may well ask.
Its chicken flavoured water with lots of nutrients and electrolytes as well apparently. 
It would seem after surviving for thousands of years on anything from sparkling stream water to filthy ditch water, our dogs now have a real need for this stuff !!!

More expensive unnatural stuff they just don't need, but people are being talked into buying it.

Now I can live with the urge to make money from gullible owners by the likes of pets at home, but I resent my vet, as a proffessional animal medic, trying to treat me as a fool.


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## Cinnamontoast (25 November 2014)

What do raw feeders give as treats? I'm currently giving pizzles, they last a while, aren't greasy and are natural. It took the dogs a while to be happy with them after tasty greasy pig ears, but now they dance for treat time again!


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## Ilovemywelshie (21 January 2015)

Just thought id add to thread as stubbled across this whilst searching for pros and cons of raw. It's only day two of my switch from skinners to raw. 

I have two chihuhuhas and a wiemeraner.  My wiemeraner was pooing so much on skinners and often it was loose, I tried many different dried foods from very expensive to very cheap nothing seemed to settle well with her. 

My once fussy chi's are wolfing down their raw and within one feed my wiemeraners tummy has settled (thought it was going to be initial rocket bum) they all seem more relaxed in themselves, drinking less water therefore not constantly out for the toilet. 
I really am amazed so far at what a change it's had to to them. I realise it's only early days but I wish id started from puppy's and I am frustrated with myself that I didn't do this before as surely it's obvious that natural is the most healthy way to go.

I will say you need to be more organised as a lot of what i have read says variety is the key. I just seperate meals into the freezer and defrost or fridge them the night before. Raw makes you think what actually does go in to 'complete' dog food. 

Im waiting for a delivery but needed food for 3 days for 3 dogs I went to the butchers and can feed off cuts and bone for £1.80. I think raw will work out cheaper for lots of people when buying in bulk.
Thanks for all the really useful information on this thread as there is soo much online.


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## Scarlett (19 February 2015)

Took the plunge this week with the pup - totally raw diet, all Natural Instinct with play bones to chew on in the evening. Very happy puppy and he had no issues at all eating any of it with is dodgy palate. I took him into the NI shop so they could see him and got some advice on bones so we have a list of things to try so we can identify what he can and cant have to eat. He's definitely put weight on this week, he's calmer, has healthy poos and the shine off him is reflective. OH also popped into local butchers who he made friends with and got a bag of bones for a quid - result!

Older dog has been helping finish off the Forthglade we had left and will swap to 100% raw this weekend. 

Happy dogs, happy humans.


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## Leo Walker (19 February 2015)

Whoever asked about cats, mine is raw fed. It took longer to swap him over as an adult than it took with the dogs, but hes away now. He doesnt get much fish though! He gets lots of heart, chicken, turkey, lamb, beef etc. He still after a year wont eat whole wings etc, so we are careful to make sure he gets enough complete mince to balance his diet. He looks and feels amazing!


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## Cinnamontoast (19 February 2015)

Fab news about the pup, Scarlett! Might be worth having a look for a supplier depending on how much he will be eating. I've got a freezer full!


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## Scarlett (22 February 2015)

cinnamontoast said:



			Fab news about the pup, Scarlett! Might be worth having a look for a supplier depending on how much he will be eating. I've got a freezer full!
		
Click to expand...

Thank you,  I'm so pleased. I was really worried that his palate/jaw probs would limit what he could eat but he's doing really well!  He's got an anti -gulp bowl and I squash the meat in with some frozen veg on the top which seems to help slow him down otherwise he can get food in his nose. He's had a couple of simple bones this week with no problems and devoured a turkey neck tonight as part of his dinner. Going to get some lamb ribs this week as our next thing to try. Am oddly excited by it all.

Older dog had a raw dinner tonight too, he's super food sensitive so I'm looking forward to seeing if we see any changes. He had bones this week and really seemed to enjoy the turkey neck at dinner. 

Our freezer is tiny so going to buy weekly for now while we try stuff and see how they go, already thinking about where we could fit in a freezer just for the dogs dinners.


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## Cinnamontoast (22 February 2015)

I bought a huge freezer which had to go in the shed :redface3: Go easy on the other dog, I went a bit mad and threw everything all at once at my lot. Their cage was shocking some mornings! I slowed down and did one protein at a time after that, much nicer all round!


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## Scarlett (22 February 2015)

Yeah, I think we could fit a freezer in, certainly sounds like buying in bulk could save us quite a bit of cash so would be worth it 

Other dog had been having raw food breakfast for the last 3 weeks, replacing breakfast kibble, so hoping he'll swap to it completely easily.


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## SadKen (12 March 2015)

I've just given my two their first actual bone each. Neither have ever had a bone before. I'm not going to fib; I'm on tenterhooks watching them chewing in case the bone splinters, and I've told OH to keep an eye on tomorrow's poo.

They have had a knuckle bone each from pets at home. I'm sure that's not ideal but I wanted to see how they would do. They both seem exceedingly pleased, and they've been chewing for an hour or so. The bones smell and there are bits all over the rug. Good job I love those dogs.

My elder gsd rarely ever chews anything. I've noticed a bit of blood from his gums which I presume is similar to when I first began flossing and had blood from the shifted plaque on the floss?


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## Cinnamontoast (12 March 2015)

A smoked or cooked bone?  Avoid like the plague. Go raw, get chicken wings, pork ribs, lamb breast.


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## Scarlett (12 March 2015)

As I read this my two are crunching through a couple of beef ribs. We've had no problem with the introduction of bones at all. Quite the opposite infact. We started with the frozen, packaged ones from Natures Menu and Natural Instinct and are making friends with the local butcher. 

Ours started with some chicken wings and progressed to lamb spines, their absolute favourite.


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## 0310Star (17 March 2015)

I have a 14 week old Rottweiler pup who has been on the raw diet for just over a week now and we are very happy with the results so far.
She is having the Durham Animal Feeds minced 1lb packs which seem to be going down well. I have started on Turkey (with bone), Chicken and Tripe (with bone), and Tripe (without bone). We are going by 5% of her current weight per day.

I am just curious about what I should be adding in with regards to bones/offal? 

Any info would be great


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## Cinnamontoast (20 March 2015)

Pork ribs, chicken wings, necks, small carcasses. Lamb breast and small non weight bearing bones.


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## 0310Star (23 March 2015)

And would these make up a whole meal at the right weight or would they just be like treats as such?


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## Cinnamontoast (23 March 2015)

0310Star said:



			And would these make up a whole meal at the right weight or would they just be like treats as such?
		
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Up to you. The ratio is 80:10:10, meat, bone, offal. This can be balanced over a week as opposed to a day, so you can feed meaty bones for a meal, give as treats, whatever you like. I might give a pig's trotter as tea, they see it as a treat and take it into the garden. Another meal might be chicken necks plus a small lump of liver, some sprats and a raw egg. 

Once you've got the hang of it, you can throw whatever you fancy in the bowl.


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## Winters100 (18 April 2015)

The thing you have to remember about the raw food diet is that there IS a risk in feeding bones to dogs.  I am not necessarily saying don't do it, for some dogs it may be the best thing, but you do need to be aware of the risks.  Of course wild dogs would eat bones, claws etc, but you have to remember that in the wild dogs are not castrated or spayed, so it is natural that they need to die off at a higher rate than dogs kept as pets.  Personally having seen a dog die a very painful death from being fed chicken carcass I would not do it, but as I said there are other health benefits so for some it is the right decision.  Good luck!


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## aintgotnohay (18 April 2015)

its only cooked bones u shouldnt feed to dogs feeding RAW chicken carcass is fine.i feed my poodles raw chicken wings,quarters etc no problems.never feed cooked chicken to a dog


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## Winters100 (18 April 2015)

Sadly raw bones can also cause problems, many people feed them for years without any issue, but the risk is still there.  My husband is a vet and won't feed this diet to our dogs as he has lost dogs on the table from this and he says it is a terrible way to go.  That having been said it does definitely seem to have some benefits, so if you are aware of and can accept the risk I would not say it is a bad thing.


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## Cinnamontoast (19 April 2015)

Can I ask what food is sold in his surgery?


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## Winters100 (19 April 2015)

cinnamontoast said:



			Can I ask what food is sold in his surgery?
		
Click to expand...

He works at a referral centre in a university so they don't sell food.


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## Winters100 (19 April 2015)

cinnamontoast said:



			Can I ask what food is sold in his surgery?
		
Click to expand...

And actually if you are trying to suggest that vets do not support raw diet because they want to sell food that is ridiculous.  The vast majority of people who do not feed raw do not use food supplied by their vet.  Even if they use the brands most commonly sold at the vet they would normally order online (as we do). My husband spends an enormous amount of time trying to work things out so that people can have their animals treated within their budget and does numerous surgeries for free for rescues.  Most vets truly care about their clients (both animal and human) and would never recommend a diet just for personal profit. What IS wrong is people promoting a diet without acknowledging and explaining the fact that there are very real risks associated with it and that some dogs die from it.


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## 0310Star (22 April 2015)

We are getting on amazingly with raw feeding and my puppy is looking fantastic (the vet even commented on how amazingly shiny her coat is looking and her overall condition!) but I am not too sure what fruit and veg to be adding in.

She has a selection of minced meat from a raw dog feed supplier but it is a mixture of meat/bone/offal only, not a complete food with veg added in. She is currently getting 5% of her body weight as recommended for a growing pup (she is 5 months old on Friday) and this is working well.

Any ideas on what fruit and veg to get and add in? And how often? I want to start using fresh stuff from the farm shop if possible so I can do a weekly shop for us and a little extra for her.

Thanks in advance


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## Cinnamontoast (23 April 2015)

Winters100 said:



			And actually if you are trying to suggest that vets do not support raw diet because they want to sell food that is ridiculous.  The vast majority of people who do not feed raw do not use food supplied by their vet.  Even if they use the brands most commonly sold at the vet they would normally order online (as we do). My husband spends an enormous amount of time trying to work things out so that people can have their animals treated within their budget and does numerous surgeries for free for rescues.  Most vets truly care about their clients (both animal and human) and would never recommend a diet just for personal profit. What IS wrong is people promoting a diet without acknowledging and explaining the fact that there are very real risks associated with it and that some dogs die from it.
		
Click to expand...

Wow, massive leap from one sentence! Most vets don't have more than basic nutrition for all species-half a day according to a mate who qualified recently. 

Start a thread on the main bit of the dog page if you want to defend something (and btw, every vet surgery I've ever been in sells either Hills or Science Plan, neither of which I'd care to touch) the raw thread is not the place, quite honestly.


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## Cinnamontoast (23 April 2015)

Double post.


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## Winters100 (23 April 2015)

cinnamontoast said:



			Wow, massive leap from one sentence! Most vets don't have more than basic nutrition for all species-half a day according to a mate who qualified recently. 

Start a thread on the main bit of the dog page if you want to defend something (and btw, every vet surgery I've ever been in sells either Hills or Science Plan, neither of which I'd care to touch) the raw thread is not the place, quite honestly.
		
Click to expand...

I don't know where your friend qualified from but in any case a vet with 25 years experience is not relying only on what they learned at school.  Most owners would seek advice from an experienced vet on such important topics and not rely on the opinion of someone just qualified.  If you as a vet had operated on dogs who subsequently died from this diet you might have a different view about the safety.  It may well be right for some but it is absolutely immoral that people with little knowledge recommend it without pointing out that there is a risk that must be accepted when making the choice.  What was your point about every vet you had been in selling Hills (or indeed any other brand) food?


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## Cinnamontoast (24 April 2015)

If you don't mind, take this to pms or a main thread. It is taking this thread off topic, not very fair.


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## Karran (24 April 2015)

Mrs Spaniel is taking the plunge into raw food this week!

We've had chicken fillet pieces the last couple of days and I've got some thigh for her to try.

Please tell me again that its ok for her to eat them! I'll be clinging on to the bone nervously tonight.....


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## Cinnamontoast (24 April 2015)

The thigh is quite a chunky bone or are you feeding it off the bone? I like chicken wings, because you can hold them and encourage chewing rather than inhaling! If you can get hold of chicken necks, they're a good size. PM me if you'd like a list of suppliers who do meat on or off the bone specifically for dogs.


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## Karran (24 April 2015)

Yikes are thighs not good then?
Not sure what you mean by off the bone? It was a chunk of meat and I just held onto the bone bit while she ate around me.

I was scared of the wings as I thought smaller would be more likely to be inhaled. She crunched her way through the bone with me holding onto the end so she had to stop and chew and I've monitored her carefully since then so feeling a little more relaxed about bones, although it'll be a while before I give her free rein to get on with it!

Was considering drumsticks as well *eyeing up bags of cheap meat from sainsburys*

But would you advise against them as well then?

Please pm me - i've been a bit hesitant about bemusing my local butcher for scrap ends!


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## Cinnamontoast (1 July 2015)

In the hot weather, frozen raw is handy (I worry about how hard frozen bones are so I avoid) but offal is good as are minces.


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## paulineh (24 March 2016)

Years ago I use to feed my working dogs Lights and melts. The working sheep dogs and the gun dogs.

Cooked it in a small burco  and it stunk but the dogs were healthy with lovely shinny coats. I just added some vegetables and oil.


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## tda (3 June 2016)

So after trawling thru this thread, I'm looking to try my 4 PRT and elderly Border Collie on raw diet.  I guess this means I need quite a lot of meat etc on a daily basis. Does anyone have any contacts where you can buy these products already frozen I guess?

My brothers friend has a butchers shop so he's my first call, but need a backup plan


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## Leo Walker (3 June 2016)

put "raw food suppliers" into google and there will be loads! Manifold Valley Meats are very good quality. Durham Animal Feeds a bit less so, but mine dont seem fussed. I use Landywoods. I find them cheap but good quality and with lots of variety. They do some cat specific stuff as well which is important to me as the cat is raw fed, well mainly, hes a cat so he eats whatever he tells us he wants to eat :lol: 

I also buy bones and heart/offally type stuff from Morrisons and buy chicken hearts from a local polish butcher. I love feeding mine and am always on the look out for new stuff to give them. I love raw feeding


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## Cinnamontoast (4 June 2016)

Pets at Home do raw ready packaged, mince etc. All supermarkets do frozen chicken bits really cheap. Ask your butcher mate for off cuts, non weight bearing bones, ears, tips, anything he'd normally chuck.


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## MotherOfChickens (24 June 2016)

I am feeding my little rescue Nature's Menu and she's doing well on it-seems she has a chicken allergy and feeding this has stopped her paw chewing etc. She also gets bones and fish on top of that.
I am shortly getting a golden retriever pup and would also like to feed him RAW in time but NM will work out quite spendy for the pair of them. Local butcher does dog mince which is chicken free. I must admit I am a bit nervous about doing home-made RAW for a growing dog so haven't decided on that just yet. But in addition to the butcher's dog mince, what veggies and in what sort of proportion should I give her?


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## Leo Walker (24 June 2016)

Mine dot get veg, apart from the odd pack that has mince in it. I find my younger boy drops weight dramatically if he gets a mince with veg in. He does like the odd bit of carrot and loves apples so gets those occasionally. Lots of people dont feed any veg, so its entirely up to you if you want to or not


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## MotherOfChickens (24 June 2016)

ok, thanks-she's an insanely good doer and also on phenobarb for epilepsy which really increases her appetite (plus she's part beagle lol, genes are against her!) so I dunno if veg might make her feel a bit fuller or not. Seems odd for companies to add veg on the one hand so I wondered if there's something in there that they need-fibre for example. Not sure why they might need peas which NM has but it has worked well for two different dogs.


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## Leo Walker (24 June 2016)

I dont like NM, I dont find it great quality. Mine wont eat most of it. Other peoples dogs are fine on it though. I used to get a mince and veg mix from a local supplier. The dogs did eat that but they just seem to do better on just meat. If mine were good doers I'd def be looking for a meat and veg mix or adding my own veg though. It def bulks them out. Have a look at some of the suppliers, there are lots of them and they all do lots of different things, so its just working out which one suits you


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## epemberton94 (27 June 2016)

I feed my spaniel raw. He has everything- bones, hearts, liver, eggs.  I just go down to the butchers, buy loads of trimmings and ask them to save some chicken carcasses etc for me.  I then take it home, bag it up and put it in my chest freezer.


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## Billyboo (9 July 2016)

I dont agree with feeding yogurt, but generally support the RAW diet because it is a lot more natural for dogs. In the wild they wouldn't cook their food! Also bones are a must. Good luck with the new puppy; theres nothing better than bringing home a new pup into the family.


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## Cinnamontoast (10 July 2016)

Why don't you like yoghurt? It seems to settle their stomachs when they're puky.


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## Billyboo (11 July 2016)

To digest lactose, dogs must produce a lactose-breaking-down enzyme called lactase. 'Most' dogs  can't produce this enzyme and can't properly digest and utilise the nutrients in yoghurt. It can also make them bloat, vomit and upset their digestive systems.


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## MotherOfChickens (25 July 2016)

So, proud owner of 10 week old pup (GR) who is currently on Purina. I would like to get him on to RAW-not least as I have a freezer full of RAW from DAF that I bought for the dog that I lost a couple of weeks ago. I know some isn't suitable for him but I do have many packs of minces (game and lamb tripe containing bone and offal, oily fish amongst others-although I avoided chicken as she had a chicken allergy). I won't be doing anything straight away if its not recommended.

Some questions:

Should I start him sooner rather than later or let him get his jags out of the way?

I know I should not feed RAW and kibble together, he's currently on 3 meals a day-how would that work?

Vegetables-could I just get the NM veg nuggets and add one/two of them in a day?

An I better off going for something like Natures Instinct? I've had good results with adult dogs with Nature's Menu but I know some don't rate it.

Any tips? (help!!! please )


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## msowell (1 June 2017)

I've tried my 2yo border collie on raw (Natures Menu and then a local supplier) for the last month because I wanted her to have something healthier, but she just hasn't been stomaching it well. Either runny tummy or getting sick.

Has anyone else had that experience too? I'm home cooking for her now.


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## George_M (8 June 2017)

of course, she needs bones


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## msowell (8 June 2017)

George_M said:



			of course, she needs bones
		
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OK. Thanks George. Thought that would have been covered by the ground bone content in this:
https://www.naturesmenu.co.uk/chicken-salmon-complete

I'll try switching back and adding some full bones aswell.


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## Cinnamontoast (8 June 2017)

msowell, the bone content in Natures diet is fine, you don't need more. I do DIY, so aim for 80:10:10 meat offal bone. 

Are you feeding only chicken ones? Lots of dogs are allergic, might be worth trying another variety if poss.


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## msowell (9 June 2017)

Thanks @cinnamontoast


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## msowell (15 June 2017)

After all that, a friend has tempted me away from raw with these subscription guys butternut box which is cooked but fresh food that you need to keep in the fridge or freezer. So far, going well, although maybe because I didn't get the raw mix quite right. Anyway, thanks for all your help.


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## Rupertthebear (15 June 2017)

How much does it cost on average to feed a raw diet? I have 4x springers between 15-22kg.  Currently they are on dried food, I have an abundance of goat bones/scrap available which sometimes get thrown in with carrots. Is it worth going all out on the raw?


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## Cinnamontoast (15 June 2017)

My three springers cost about 40p a day each. Depends on your supplier/what you give. *Is jealous of your goat bits*


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## Roxylola (15 June 2017)

I spend about £30 to £40 a month on my two. My springer eats about a pound of food a day, the beagle only gets half that!


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## Old HorseBreeder (3 September 2017)

take a look at Honeys Real Dog Food website, and get them to send you their free booklet. Lots of useful info on there, and they don't do a hard sell, they will advise anyone over the phone about raw diet and even making up formulas at home so as not to miss nutrients like bone out. Really helpful people. My Border Terriers have been on raw for years and do very well on it.


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## dougbthom (8 October 2017)

Very interesting topic and as I'm new here I'll throw in my 2 cents. We've had German Shepherd Dogs over the past 50 years or so and had some experience breeding (very little) as well. We've also been "raw feeders" for the past 20 years with huge success. After feeding what I call "crap in a bag" for many years we came to the realization that we were in our opinion doing probably the worst thing we could for the dogs. We've had and seen all types of cancers over the years, dirty teeth and ears and various other things that cause trips to the veterinarian. After doing some serious investigating into what is actually in the kibble foods ( doesn't matter if it was a $100 or $40. bag) we were stunned to put it mildly. Thus, onto raw food and the results were immediate improvement in the dogs overall health and attitudes. We've found that "variety" is the key! We feed a commercially prepared food that we import from another province rather than making our own. We supplement some but not a lot. Consider how wolves feed in the wild. They don't have BBQ's, eat lots of fresh meat and bones! If you follow the Billinghurst diet, I don't think you'll go too far wrong. 
 The other thing we changed dramatically is "vaccines". We pump our dogs with far too many vaccines which can lead to many types of sicknesses in our dogs. Other than initial series of puppy shots, we're done with 90% of vaccines. This was a very personal decision we made about 15 years ago and we haven't looked back.
 It's in my opinion very personal decisions we make for our pets and not everyone is comfortable making major decisions when faced with so much controversy on the raw feeding and vaccine subjects. Mind you over the past number of years, a lot of pet owners are seeing many of the benefits we have with our dogs. 
 Now I'll get off my "soap box" and go fed my dogs!


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## Cinnamontoast (8 October 2017)

I think titre testing is the way forward!


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## dougbthom (8 October 2017)

I feel exactly the same way. In many cases, vaccinations are nothing but a money grab in my opinion. My vet, who happens to be a long time close friend, doesn't vaccinate his own 2 dogs other than their puppy shots.


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## Amymay (27 November 2018)

So, we're going down the raw route.  Daisy has had various allergies to food, the latest one being an issue with her anal glands.  I've got in a good supply (all 80.10.10.  We've started this morning with beef and tripe- gone in 3 seconds!!

Fingers crossed that she does well on it.


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## Cinnamontoast (27 November 2018)

What is she allergic to?


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## Amymay (28 November 2018)

cinnamontoast said:



			What is she allergic to?
		
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Not really sure to be honest.  Just know that kibble (and I've tried several) just doesn't seem to work for her.


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## Cinnamontoast (28 November 2018)

I think some people who discover allergies then go to a fish based kibble. Big dog isn't thrilled on raw so he's on Wainwright's Fishmongers currently, but his poo is pretty disgusting on it!


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## Amymay (28 November 2018)

Done fish......


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## el_Snowflakes (6 April 2019)

Have a look on the Bella & Duke website. It will calculate how much you need to feed & so you can gauge the price also. The â€˜working dogâ€™ food if a complete food so contains correct ratios do you donâ€™t need to add anything. 

Since moving my dog on to this her coat is gleaming, sheâ€™s the best weight she has ever been & her poop is so easy to pick up! Sheâ€™s always suffered from terrible anal gland issues & since starting the raw diet she has had no issues at all which has blown me away! If bought in bulk it also works out very cost effective. We put an extra freezer in the garage in order to do so. 

Iâ€™d honestly never feed canned or kibble ever again!


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## Leo Walker (6 April 2019)

I feed raw but tend to avoid premade stuff as it is expensive. We have 2 local suppliers now and mine get mainly Bulmers minces, some freeflow minces, duck wings and chicken feet, then bones, ribs chopped heart and liver from the supermarket. Mine are on 500gms a day give or take and for 2 of them it costs me about Â£30 a month now


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## cauda equina (25 September 2019)

I am keen to try raw; he's currently on freshly cooked meat and offal.
Can I simply stop cooking and add some bones, or is it more complicated than that?


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## Leo Walker (25 September 2019)

so long as you feed roughly 10% offal, 10% bone and 80% meat then its fine. Lots of people transition them over a long period of time but I never have and if yours is happily eating cooked meat then its even easier.


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## cauda equina (25 September 2019)

Thanks for that, unfortunately my vet has just advised against it on the basis that his immune system might be compromised
I don't want to go back to commercial food so am now investigating how to do a complete cooked diet


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## Leo Walker (25 September 2019)

Could you get one of the complete raw mixes and lightly cook that?


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## cauda equina (25 September 2019)

That's a good idea, thanks


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## dree (25 September 2019)

DaisyDuke said:



			Right so I don't feed the raw diet to my dogs at the moment but my Mother in law does. (a very new thing)
Now from reading some of your posts on here I'm not sure if she is doing the right thing?
All she feeds hers is mince, raw egg and natural yoghurt, no bones or anything, is this right?
When I asked her she seemed to think it was fine?
Wonder if anyone can answer this so that I can give her some gentle guidance!!!
Thanks.
		
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She needs to add something with bone in it.  I feed a diet with minced chicken wings being 60% of the diet....which obviously include bones.  The rest of the diet can be other meats, tripe, eggs, etc.

I have a diet sheet.  If you would like a copy, please email me.


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## Cinnamontoast (25 September 2019)

Why are you replying to a 9 year old post? The OP is no longer active on the forum.


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## dree (25 September 2019)

Cinnamontoast said:



			Why are you replying to a 9 year old post? The OP is no longer active on the forum.
		
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 Sorry, really tired!!


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## Summit (29 October 2019)

My boy has been on raw for 7 years now.  Heâ€™s 9  now and so fit and healthy.   clean breath, lovely coat and teeth, no wind problems and small poos 

 Never goes to the vet unless itâ€™s for injections.  I use DAF, minces are 10% offal, 10% bone, 80% meat


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## dree (30 October 2019)

Summit said:



			My boy has been on raw for 7 years now.  Heâ€™s 9  now and so fit and healthy.   clean breath, lovely coat and teeth, no wind problems and small poos 

 Never goes to the vet unless itâ€™s for injections.  I use DAF, minces are 10% offal, 10% bone, 80% meat
		
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I've been feeding raw for about 30 years now.  Never at the vet.....don't vaccinate at all.


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## ThatConnemara (25 March 2020)

DaisyDuke said:



			Right so I don't feed the raw diet to my dogs at the moment but my Mother in law does. (a very new thing)
Now from reading some of your posts on here I'm not sure if she is doing the right thing?
All she feeds hers is mince, raw egg and natural yoghurt, no bones or anything, is this right?
When I asked her she seemed to think it was fine?
Wonder if anyone can answer this so that I can give her some gentle guidance!!!
Thanks.
		
Click to expand...

The raw egg is great!I'm not too sure about the yogurt. It needs to be sugar free. If she has a large dog/medium dog they would benefit from a bone. If she has a small(ish) dog it wouldn't be a good idea to give a bone, instead raw chicken breast would be great (You can give this to the larger dogs too!).


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## Leo Walker (25 March 2020)

ThatConnemara said:



			The raw egg is great!I'm not too sure about the yogurt. It needs to be sugar free. If she has a large dog/medium dog they would benefit from a bone. If she has a small(ish) dog it wouldn't be a good idea to give a bone, instead raw chicken breast would be great (You can give this to the larger dogs too!).
		
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This is a 9yr old comment and your advice is bloody awful yet again. Please stop dishing out advice on subjects you clearly know nothing about. I'm assuming you are a child and you might mean well but you can do more harm than good giving out ridiculous advice like this.


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## ThatConnemara (25 March 2020)

First


Leo Walker said:



			This is a 9yr old comment and your advice is bloody awful yet again. Please stop dishing out advice on subjects you clearly know nothing about. I'm assuming you are a child and you might mean well but you can do more harm than good giving out ridiculous advice like this.
		
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 If All I am new here and I didn't notice and second of all I may not know a lot about horses but I have had 6 dogs and what I said was advised by VETS so could you stop being so judgemental


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## ThatConnemara (25 March 2020)

Leo Walker said:



			This is a 9yr old comment and your advice is bloody awful yet again. Please stop dishing out advice on subjects you clearly know nothing about. I'm assuming you are a child and you might mean well but you can do more harm than good giving out ridiculous advice like this.
		
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 Also, what is wrong about this?


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## Leo Walker (25 March 2020)

ThatConnemara said:



			First

If All I am new here and I didn't notice and second of all I may not know a lot about horses but I have had 6 dogs and what I said was advised by VETS so could you stop being so judgemental
		
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 Vets have very limited nutritional training, and none whatsoever in raw feeding, and even then I very much doubt any vet ever has advised sugar free yoghurt. One of the ingredients in sugar free produce is poisonous to dogs. The rest of it was just poor advice and best ignored but this specific bit could potentially be lethal. Its the second time today I've seen you giving advice that could potentially end in the death of someones horse/dog.


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## ThatConnemara (26 March 2020)

Leo Walker said:



			Vets have very limited nutritional training, and none whatsoever in raw feeding, and even then I very much doubt any vet ever has advised sugar free yoghurt. One of the ingredients in sugar free produce is poisonous to dogs. The rest of it was just poor advice and best ignored but this specific bit could potentially be lethal. Its the second time today I've seen you giving advice that could potentially end in the death of someones horse/dog.
		
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Well my dear, they gave advice with bones. Large dogs can benefit from bones whereas small dogs can choke on them (they both have the risk but large dogs are less likely to choke on them).I don't know where you got that idea from but yogurt can not kill a dog. A teaspoon of yogurt in a raw meal can not cause harm.


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## Amymay (26 March 2020)

Actually TC there is no less likelihood of a large dog chocking on a bone than a small dog. The key is what _type_ of bone you give.  I have a small dog, and often give a marrow bone (supervised obviously, as you would with any dog).


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## ownedbyaconnie (26 March 2020)

ThatConnemara said:



			Well my dear, they gave advice with bones. Large dogs can benefit from bones whereas small dogs can choke on them (they both have the risk but large dogs are less likely to choke on them).I don't know where you got that idea from but yogurt can not kill a dog. A teaspoon of yogurt in a raw meal can not cause harm.
		
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Sugar free yoghurt sometimes contains xylitol.


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## ThatConnemara (26 March 2020)

ownedbyaconnie said:



			Sugar free yoghurt sometimes contains xylitol.
		
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Sometimes^, I'd expect the owner to read the ingredients.


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## Leo Walker (26 March 2020)

ThatConnemara said:



			Sometimes^, I'd expect the owner to read the ingredients.
		
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They wont have to if they dont follow your idiotic and lethal advice. The fact you clearly werent aware of this means that others wont be either. The fact you are still stating that your advice is just fine, just shows how stupid people can be.

The advice regarding the bones is just nonsense, but luckily unlikely to kill anyones dog/


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## Cinnamontoast (26 March 2020)

Leo Walker said:



			Vets have very limited nutritional training, and none whatsoever in raw feeding, and even then I very much doubt any vet ever has advised sugar free yoghurt. One of the ingredients in sugar free produce is poisonous to dogs. The rest of it was just poor advice and best ignored but this specific bit could potentially be lethal. Its the second time today I've seen you giving advice that could potentially end in the death of someones horse/dog.
		
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A friend was trained at the RVC and received half a day’s training-on all species! If you look at the shit quality ‘food’ pushed by vets in their surgeries then surely you wouldn’t rely on their nutrition advice! Frankly, I probably know more about what’s in dog food than most vets, 10 years of research, although I am absolutely not claiming to be qualified in any way. 



ThatConnemara said:



			Well my dear, they gave advice with bones. Large dogs can benefit from bones whereas small dogs can choke on them (they both have the risk but large dogs are less likely to choke on them).I don't know where you got that idea from but yogurt can not kill a dog. A teaspoon of yogurt in a raw meal can not cause harm.
		
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^^ As already pointed out, it totally depends on the bone. Are you telling me small dogs have different physiology to big dogs and that my mate’s chi shouldn’t be eating chicken wings? Blimey, I better tell her (although she is actually qualified in canine nutrition) 😂


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## ThatConnemara (26 March 2020)

Cinnamontoast said:



			A friend was trained at the RVC and received half a day’s training-on all species! If you look at the shit quality ‘food’ pushed by vets in their surgeries then surely you wouldn’t rely on their nutrition advice! Frankly, I probably know more about what’s in dog food than most vets, 10 years of research, although I am absolutely not claiming to be qualified in any way.



^^ As already pointed out, it totally depends on the bone. Are you telling me small dogs have different physiology to big dogs and that my mate’s chi shouldn’t be eating chicken wings? Blimey, I better tell her (although she is actually qualified in canine nutrition) 😂
		
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That's just what my mother got told.


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## EllenJay (26 March 2020)

ThatConnemara said:



			Well my dear, they gave advice with bones. Large dogs can benefit from bones whereas small dogs can choke on them (they both have the risk but large dogs are less likely to choke on them).
		
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Crikey - my two small dogs had better give up their daily chicken wings then. 

Not sure if you are talking about cooked or raw bones, because you are right - small dogs can choke on cooked bones when they splinter - although large dogs can as well, but it is probably easier to take out the large splinters from their throat and they could possibly be able to swallow the smaller splinters.

Why is it that people who don't actually know give unfounded advice, and then try to claim "unknown/unnamed vets advice"


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## Leo Walker (26 March 2020)

EllenJay said:



			Why is it that people who don't actually know give unfounded advice, and then try to claim "unknown/unnamed vets advice"
		
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The ones that know the least always have this unshaking belief in themselves. I guess they dont know enough to know how stupid they are being. The addition of the mythical vet just adds weight to the argument in their mind.


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## Cinnamontoast (26 March 2020)

ThatConnemara said:



			That's just what my mother got told.
		
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By whom? And did you not do your own research? Have you even looked at the thread you’re posting on? Years of raw feeding and experience combined. It’s a really useful tool for raw feeders. Please don’t come on here espousing myths: we’ll just explode them with research and facts.


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## paddy555 (26 March 2020)

ThatConnemara said:



			Sometimes^, I'd expect the owner to read the ingredients.
		
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as far as xylitol is concerned many dog owners wouldn't know it could kill their pet and secondly it is not necessarily listed as xylitol but by other descriptions so they would again fail to see it.


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## Books'n'dogs (17 June 2020)

Oops, wrong thread. Deleted


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## melodyth (28 January 2021)

My dog just doesn't listen to me. He eats everything! But I love him anyway.


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