# Famous stallions' quirks



## itroteverywhere (30 December 2011)

Just out of interest/ for amusement purposes really 
So... do you know any famous stallions who have quirks or certain characteristics that they pass onto their offspring?

I know a couple of horses by Donnerhall and they are all very ticklish!
Dimaggio offspring are lovely across the board in my experience.
Can think of a couple non-famous examples but will see if I can think of any others...


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## tonitot (30 December 2011)

Most horses by One Cool Cat are scatty and a bit bad tempered, I've known and ridden a few, they're all the same! Horses by Kheyleyf are normally very cheeky and bitey but I like them  despite one kicking me in the head lol  Horses by Alke are normally lovely


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## Vicki_Krystal (30 December 2011)

Ramiro Z - sharp and quirky!


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## measles (30 December 2011)

Lux Z mares - sharp, quirky and often hugely talented. I've hard the geldings are generally easier. I've had three by ID stallion Star Kingdom and all have had super temps and been lovely movers.


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## kerilli (30 December 2011)

itroteverywhere said:



			Just out of interest/ for amusement purposes really 
So... do you know any famous stallions who have quirks or certain characteristics that they pass onto their offspring?

I know a couple of horses by Donnerhall and they are all very ticklish!
Dimaggio offspring are lovely across the board in my experience.
Can think of a couple non-famous examples but will see if I can think of any others...
		
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Just to prove that there's always an exception, my homebred DiMaggio filly (out of a truly exceptional mare) was a totally work-shy, physically useless, complete piece of rubbish. She was pretty, and nicely put together, but that's all I could say about her. Honestly the only horse I have ever totally given up with, I couldn't even ask her to trot a circle or walk up the road. Not even any good as a field ornament. Broke my heart, that one, talk about a disappointment!

I have an Alderbrook mare who is wonderfully kind, probably the sweetest horse I've ever known. A friend knew Alderbrook and said he wouldn't ever hurt anyone, to the point where if he really didn't want to do something he would lie down rather than fight! (I'd always thought that was extreme obstinacy but I guess it's also the ultimately passive way of getting out of doing something without hurting himself or anyone else!)

I have a Fleetwater Opposition homebred who is quite challenging, and, like a lot of his apparently, really likes 'waving to the crowds'.

We'll see about the Jumbo homebred, so far she has a divine temperament, nothing fazes her at all. Hope she stays that way!


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## TheMule (30 December 2011)

Abergwiffy- who has been the bravest, boldest and maddest creature I've ever come across- apparently pretty common for them!

Cruising- lazy sod except when he's being sharp as nails!

Fleetwater Opposition beasties who are all the same- exceptionally faithful when they trust you but total nightmares when they dont and very quick to hold a grudge. Tact is your only hope.


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## Roxana (30 December 2011)

Most Gribaldi's have a "human eye". Sometimes it scares me... lol.


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## 4faults (30 December 2011)

Haha I have to agree with the Ramiro Z as I am currently on my third mare of his lines. 

My Broadstone Landmark boy is kind with an amazing personality, very cheeky and loveable.

Does anyone have experience with Concorde babies?


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## Romax (30 December 2011)

Horses by Donnerschlag have (or the 4 I ride regularly ) amazing work ethics and are quick learners, tending to be calm under saddle. No matter what mare we've used he has a very strong stamp.


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## TarrSteps (30 December 2011)

But then I had a first generation Ramiro who was a bit of a dope.  There are so many variables for temperament, it's very hard to generalise about more than tendencies. What has interested me most working for big breeders, is to see how the offspring differ, not just to see how they are similar! 

I am most curious about what I would call quirks, like horses sucking their tongues, or having a particular odd like or dislike or reaction. I have met a few by one stallion who are all tricky to get on, as is, apparently, the horse himself. I know another that passes on his poor neck conformation, which makes the horses tricky in the hand and inclined to panic when the rider takes a hold.


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## FrodoBeutlin (30 December 2011)

Rauti is Ramiro Z lines (on both sides....line-bred) but I wouldn't call him "sharp and quirky", in fact he's a true gentleman both ridden and on the ground.


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## Sportznight (30 December 2011)

tonitot said:



			Most horses by One Cool Cat are scatty and a bit bad tempered, I've known and ridden a few, they're all the same!
		
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He was a complete shite as a yearling!  But then a lot of Storm Cat's are!

Montjeu fillies - stress heads, as are King's Best fillies (would take a Montjeu filly over a King's Best any day!)

Gone West mares - delightfully sweet and kind natured!
Pleasant Colony - big boned/framed horses with generous natures.


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## springtime13 (30 December 2011)

My Jumbo  baby was the most backward thinking, nappy horse I've ever dealth with. He reversed into cars, ditches, fences and was very unpredictable. My Libro baby is hot but safe and I've heard this from others.


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## kerilli (30 December 2011)

springtime13 said:



			My Jumbo  baby was the most backward thinking, nappy horse I've ever dealth with. He reversed into cars, ditches, fences and was very unpredictable.
		
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I've heard exactly the same from someone else with a very tricky Jumbo, hope my girl won't turn out like that.

I forgot, I have a Stonegrove Ace mare, and have been told that he was the sweetest stallion to handle, and passes that on. Sure enough, she has a lovely temperament. Was also told that he threw solid chestnut males or elegant bay fillies - yes, she's the latter, spot on.

TarrSteps, here's a good one: a friend had a mare and stallion, bred them to other horses, and to each other. Neither parent crib-bit or windsucked, nor did any of their offspring by or out of other horses, but that particular cross always produced mares and colts who did both. Hmmmm.


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## TarrSteps (30 December 2011)

Hate to say it, k, but I know another idle Jumbo. Big strong horse, good owner, but he only does the bare minimum.


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## kerilli (30 December 2011)

TarrSteps said:



			Hate to say it, k, but I know another idle Jumbo. Big strong horse, good owner, but he only does the bare minimum.
		
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Ah yes, they're famous for being switched-off, iirc the "ride it like you stole it" came from a top 4* rider who'd been jocked-off a Jumbo horse and was giving genuine helpful advice to the new jockey. 
Idle I can cope with, might even appreciate it in my dotage (!), I just don't relish the thought of a nappy hysterical bint running backwards down the road etc! Possibly had my fill of those...


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## TarrSteps (30 December 2011)

It does beg the question though, what's a representative sample? And how much is the nick?


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## kerilli (30 December 2011)

heaven knows what a 'representative sample' is... esp as, as you say up there, so much depends on the mare's temperament, and on nurture.
what does 'how much is the nick' mean pls?


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## coss (30 December 2011)

Weltmeyer - shiverer  *hides*


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## seabsicuit2 (30 December 2011)

Would agree on Cruisings being complete lazy sods but talented when you can get it out of them!

Jumbos they say you have to 'ride it like you stole it" however that could never be said for Headley Britannia or her full brother Kingdom who were always keen and willing?

Rock Kings-light,small horses that are quite sharp and quirky, excellent jumpers

A few little traits I've picked up from race stallions over the years;-

Fantastic Lights- talented, but dont try& always seem to hold back at the finish line
Hallings, talented, but dont try & as above
Tamures- big top heavy horses with poor feet, that are thugs and not very talented
Kayf Tara- poor limbs
Oscar/midnight legends/supreme leaders- strong well made horses that try their hearts out, sane and sensible/easy

Last but not least! Beneficials, all have super balanced canters and quick athletic jumps, are very very willing,keen and courageous, tough,& brave but very sharp, sensitive and flighty stressheads! And they a lot of them seem to have exactly the same head/eye - so many of them look identical.

Saddlers wells, and a lot of his sons, consistently throw horses that look like his sire Northern Dancer, bright bay with white blaze and white socks/feet, can be quite top heavy, square , butty horses, but with gorgeous temperments.


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## TarrSteps (30 December 2011)

The cross, especially of families. Racehorse talk. 

The Jumbo I know is very safe and does a nice test. Lots to be said for that!


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## kerilli (30 December 2011)

TarrSteps said:



			The cross, especially of families. Racehorse talk. 

The Jumbo I know is very safe and does a nice test. Lots to be said for that!
		
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Ah right, ta. 
Safe and does a nice test will suit me just fine in my dotage!   

Coss, well, if we're going there, you just reminded me, i've heard the same of Randi offspring iirc.


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## Llanali (30 December 2011)

The Randi filly we had= B1tch. Talented, but b1tch. A real 'I don't want to, you can't make me' with a dash of 'Hmmmmm, *bang* oh whoops, did I kick you in the face?'


I have a Ghareeb, mare now, who I ADORE, is the sweetest, unflappable thing alive- apparently that follows from him.....


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## glamourpuss (30 December 2011)

Ah it's funny you should say that about the Sadlers wells lines, my young lad looks just like you say although he is a very flashy moving, pretty lad which I think comes from his dams side. His temperament is fabulous & very Sadlers Wells.

Most welcome - despite being a decent flat horse his progeny show good talent over a fence although they all seem to be built pretty downhill! They are real tryers but keep a cheeky side!


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## TarrSteps (30 December 2011)

I know a talented but somewhat idle Randi, too. Which might explain why he was a good YR horse. . .


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## Llanali (30 December 2011)

In my- admittedly limited- experience, Alflora horses tend to be good too....cheeky, but everything in the right place and a nice brain.


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## carterk3 (30 December 2011)

Had a Dutch Gold mare once who was very pretty, moved beautifully but VERY quirky. Required very tactful riding and absolutely paranoid about having her mouth touched in the first 10mins of being ridden. Any other expereinces with those bloodlines?


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## seabsicuit2 (30 December 2011)

Dutch gold/catherston horses are just notorious for being so quirky yet talented!!

Glamourpuss- the saddlers well's 'look' is so dominant- you seem to see that colouring/type pass down 4/5  generations, each one mirror images of one another.


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## carterk3 (30 December 2011)

yes unfortunately mine had to be PTS when she was 12 due to cushings and went down hill very quickly. I am sure it was brought on by the stress of sending her to stud and she just didn't cope well.


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## only_me (30 December 2011)

Limerick mares can be very hot & sharp, can be quite opinionated.

Have heard that cruising horses are professional horses as well


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## Cheiro1 (30 December 2011)

Broadstone West Country has a reputation for throwing very quirky opinionated horses, and the gelding I know by him certainly is!


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## angelish (30 December 2011)

not as famous as some on here but i wouldn't touch anything by orlando (the colored by oberon) helped a friend sell a mare by him , very tricky and on doing a little snooping found a few others by him the same, a few of them also developed sacoids although i know there not meant to be hireditary


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## LEC (30 December 2011)

I love good breeding and usually find a good looking and athletic horse has good breeding. I tend not to worry about what 'quirks' stallions throw as judge the individual.

I went to see a Puissance horse for sale that was cheap because of the breeding and he had a hell of a buck but his confo was terrible and felt this was why he was limited and probably caused the issues more than his brain.


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## itroteverywhere (30 December 2011)

Proset babies always seem to have the 'proset-look' about them aswell, not just the blaze but head and body aswell.


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## tristar (30 December 2011)

i had a ramiro colt i was going to keep as a stallion, but rejected him at 3 years because he was so nervous, very talented horse, but not what i wanted in my breeding.

the next colt was by the andalusian, Granero, out of an anglo-arab mare, god i love this stallion, so brave and trainable and utterly faithfull, all the energy and paces yet quiet enough to hack on a long rein, goes past anything, i think he has inherited Granero's attitude to work, he loves to be ridden, such a difference to a lot of warmblood  horses i know, i often wish i could share him with others, just so they can experience the joy it brings.


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## Cluny (30 December 2011)

Personally love Donnerhall as a sire, the progeny I've come across (including my own gelding), had fantastic temperaments, and were very rideable.

Although not so keen on Contender progeny, super sharp, hot and a mean eye.  Still have my gelding by Captain Paul (Contender x Salido x Sandro) and you have to have your wits about you to ride him!


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## TheoryX1 (30 December 2011)

We have a mare by Hercorse (a son of Samber), and our YO's business partner has her brother, by the same stallion.  Ours is coloured (this stallion although piebald does not throw many coloured babies), the other horse is a liver chestnut.  They are both very kind and generous, but a bit bitey around meal times and extremely greedy about food.  Both are good doers, very accident prone and have dad's powerful bum.  Both have grandad's very uphill confirmation and beautiful paces.  While the other horse is at 2* level and Mini TX's mare is at Novice, if you look at their records, they do in fact mirror each other up to Novice as well.  They both also have extremely kind eyes as well.


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## bellatrix (30 December 2011)

Does anyone know anything about Cavalier (Royale) offspring?


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## Auslander (30 December 2011)

I used to work with Jumbo. He was just the most gorgeous chap to deal with - and most of his babies were lovely too. I remember one being lazy and nappy - but didn't have any trouble with him once he'd learnt that bad behaviour resulted in a stinging sensation on his bottom!!

The horse in my avatar was second gen Ramiro Z, and he wasn't the sharpest tool in the box! You could put your granny on him to hack out, and he needed a regular rocket up his arse in the school, but he would occasionally get a bee in his bonnet and get completely unreasonable about silly things on the yard. Muck sweat about a new tie ring in his stable - that sort of thing


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## dieseldog (30 December 2011)

I have heard Cavalier Royale's are sharp, as are Samber horses, can't be many of those left around though.  I would never buy a Catherston horse as they are a Pro's ride.  It's the business is supposed to be sharp too and Carnival Drum.  But sharp might just mean not an amateur horse. 

I have heard of a stallion in Devon that throws foals with one eye. 

I used to have a 2nd generation Ramiro Z too, he was a total saint.


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## Kaylum (30 December 2011)

Another one for Randi.  Had a Randi mare out of one of the W's ponies.  Stroppy, temperamental, but amazing jumper.  Just like him apparently.


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## kerilli (30 December 2011)

Auslander said:



			I used to work with Jumbo. He was just the most gorgeous chap to deal with - and most of his babies were lovely too. I remember one being lazy and nappy - but didn't have any trouble with him once he'd learnt that bad behaviour resulted in a stinging sensation on his bottom!!

The horse in my avatar was second gen Ramiro Z, and he wasn't the sharpest tool in the box! You could put your granny on him to hack out, and he needed a regular rocket up his arse in the school, but he would occasionally get a bee in his bonnet and get completely unreasonable about silly things on the yard. Muck sweat about a new tie ring in his stable - that sort of thing
		
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That's comforting to hear about Jumbo and his babies. They can't be that bad, he was highest points earner for his progeny for BE in 2011, not bad for an old boy! I met him at Twemlows last year and he was lovely, such an absolute gent.    

iirc the Cavalier Royales are sometimes VERY quirky, and also mental-case brave, not always what you want!


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## Lolo (30 December 2011)

I've heard that Alflora horses tend to be quite prone to worrying/ being quite sensitive, and Reg fulfils that perfectly- he's lovely but does worry about the little things if he's allowed to!


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## Roody2 (30 December 2011)

coss said:



			Weltmeyer - shiverer  *hides*
		
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Really? Is that an experience of several offspring or just one?


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## Gamebird (30 December 2011)

My Mill Law's a thug! Extremely cheeky, don't leave him without a job for more than a couple of minutes or he'll find something to entertain himself. Quite sharp to ride at home but an utter pro to compete and a natural XC. I'd hesitate to say 'professional's horse' as I am far from a professional but I would say very much suited to a fairly intensive competitive program. No nastiness but a lot of joie de vivre and a total disrespect for your personal space, though this may have been his (lack of) upbringing .

Other Mill Laws that I know have certainly been best when kept occupied.

Anyone got any experience of Iroko or Voltaire/Furioso lines?


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## LEC (30 December 2011)

WFP has a Voltaire horse in Lady Voltaire.

http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=334972


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## Auslander (30 December 2011)

kerilli said:



			That's comforting to hear about Jumbo and his babies. They can't be that bad, he was highest points earner for his progeny for BE in 2011, not bad for an old boy! I met him at Twemlows last year and he was lovely, such an absolute gent.    

!
		
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He's an utter darling. Never so much as looked sideways at a mare unless he had his "special" bridle on, and you could do anything with him. Probably the most mannerly horse I've ever dealt with - stallion, mare or gelding. He's amazing with mares too - quite the smooth operator with tricky ones. Knows what buttons to push to make even tricky mares putty in his hands!! Loved him to bits!

I love stallions. I've known some lovely ones, and some absolute gits - but never met one I didn't like working with. Crown Extravagant was another lovely one - I'd love to know what happened to him. I rode him as a 4 yr old when he came to Talland - loved him to bits!


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## 1t34 (30 December 2011)

Gamebird said:



			My Mill Law's a thug! Extremely cheeky, don't leave him without a job for more than a couple of minutes or he'll find something to entertain himself. Quite sharp to ride at home but an utter pro to compete and a natural XC. I'd hesitate to say 'professional's horse' as I am far from a professional but I would say very much suited to a fairly intensive competitive program. No nastiness but a lot of joie de vivre and a total disrespect for your personal space, though this may have been his (lack of) upbringing .

Other Mill Laws that I know have certainly been best when kept occupied.

Anyone got any experience of Iroko or Voltaire/Furioso lines?
		
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I have - Voltaire/Darco and Irco Polo lines. Lovely straight horses - personally found conformation is very good. Lovely canters and very correct to a fence. Careful and bold. Voltaire horse look spookily similar even through him as a damsire. They would probably be a little less blood with a bit more bone. Haven't got anything really as a downside IMHO.


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## coss (30 December 2011)

Roody2 said:



			Really? Is that an experience of several offspring or just one?
		
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several on his line


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## Mildred (30 December 2011)

All the Catherston horses Ive known have suffered from terrible sweetitch. I have only ever known a couple of Fleetwater Opposition babies but have heard they can be tricky, and this would definitely be the case for those two - talented but certainly not easy!


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## foxy1 (30 December 2011)

Any views on Chellano Z progeny?

I have a foal with Cruising on the Dam's side and Chellano Z/ Ramiro on the Sire's.

He'd better blooming well jump!!


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## foxy1 (30 December 2011)

Mildred said:



			All the Catherston horses Ive known have suffered from terrible sweetitch. I have only ever known a couple of Fleetwater Opposition babies but have heard they can be tricky, and this would definitely be the case for those two - talented but certainly not easy!
		
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I knew an absolute witch of a mare by Dutch Gold, also had really awful sweetitch


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## Mildred (30 December 2011)

foxy1 said:



			I knew an absolute witch of a mare by Dutch Gold, also had really awful sweetitch
		
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Yes one of the mares I'm thinking of is also an absolute cow!


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## James6 (30 December 2011)

kerilli said:



			That's comforting to hear about Jumbo and his babies. They can't be that bad, he was highest points earner for his progeny for BE in 2011, not bad for an old boy! I met him at Twemlows last year and he was lovely, such an absolute gent.    



My Jumbo chestnut mare is the sweetest, most forward-thinking horse I have ever owned. Never says no and not a nappy bone in her body 

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## PoppyAnderson (30 December 2011)

Mildred said:



			Yes one of the mares I'm thinking of is also an absolute cow! 

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I used to work with Catherston horses. Didn't know any who had sweet itch but they were always 'interesting' horses! Never out and out difficult but were quite cute and could be tricky if you didnt keep on top of them and knew how to play 'dumb' if it suited!


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## Louise_88 (30 December 2011)

I've had two by Mill Law, one was very spooky and a little bugger at home but fantastic at competitions. The other is currently unbacked but abit of a thug, bar being abit bulshy to handle I think hes going to be ok to back though.

I also have a horse whos grandsire is Voltaire. He has evented but wasn't quite brave enough XC (which i have heard others say about showjumping) he doesn't look at any filler showjumping though. I do dressage with him now and he has a fantastic temperament very workmanlike.


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## kerilli (30 December 2011)

James6 said:





kerilli said:



			My Jumbo chestnut mare is the sweetest, most forward-thinking horse I have ever owned. Never says no and not a nappy bone in her body 

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Oh good, i've got an orange filly and she's an utter darling so far (only foal i've ever had who stays on the floor for a long cuddle and snooze on my lap when i walk into the field or stable, unbelievably laid-back. 
Thanks for that, I'll keep that firmly in mind, to counter all the "Jumbos are SOOOO quirky" crap I get fed!  

A friend really rated her Catherston horses, she said they were all real athletes, whereas the Welton horses she'd used previously were easier, but not natural athletes.
		
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## foxy1 (30 December 2011)

foxy1 said:



			Any views on Chellano Z progeny?

I have a foal with Cruising on the Dam's side and Chellano Z/ Ramiro on the Sire's.

He'd better blooming well jump!! 

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He also has Ramiro/Alme bloodline combination, the same as the famous mare Ratina Z 

Sorry to keep on!!


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## PoppyAnderson (30 December 2011)

kerilli said:





James6 said:



			A friend really rated her Catherston horses, she said they were all real athletes.
		
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Dont get me wrong, they were lovely, lovely horses and I really liked them, as they had plenty of personality and character but they were, as someone else said earlier, more of a pro's horse.
		
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## illy89 (30 December 2011)

Anyone got any comments on brief encounter or doddington flyer? I've got a 2yo BE filly who has so far been a delight to deal with, a really lovely person and no quirks so far except she loves splashing about in water buckets which has made me and mum question her intelligence as it amuses her for hours!! Haha! and I have a 5yo by doddington flyer who I know nothing about, he has cruising on his dams side too and he is mega talented, very athletic but also VERY quirky and doesn't half have an atttitude on him! Ive seen a few advertised in Ireland with the same lines - cruising on the dam side and doddington flyer as the sire - and all have said 'talented but quirky'!!


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## oldvic (30 December 2011)

kerilli said:



			Ah yes, they're famous for being switched-off, iirc the "ride it like you stole it" came from a top 4* rider who'd been jocked-off a Jumbo horse and was giving genuine helpful advice to the new jockey.
		
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Also the quote from another top rider about his very charming Jumbo horse that is known for being a bit mischievious a corners/skinnies! I have worked with several Jumbos and they have all been charming and trainable. Some have been a little on the lazy side but I really like them. 



Lolo said:



			I've heard that Alflora horses tend to be quite prone to worrying/ being quite sensitive, and Reg fulfils that perfectly- he's lovely but does worry about the little things if he's allowed to!
		
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I have found this too - they try but are possibly not the cleverest so are easily confused.


Of other horses, I have found Old Vics have plenty of energy and enthusiasm. Great characters with a sensitive side.
Beneficials can be stress-heads. Normally good looking.
Craigsteels strong minded but sensitive and very athletic.
Fleminsfirths have a bit of attitude.

Cruisings can have a tricky side to them.
Cavalier Royales are not straight forward.

As TarrSteps says, the nick with some stallions can make a huge difference.


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## Wolfie (30 December 2011)

Cruisings can jump, but are often quite tricky, or at least those that I know are! I wouldn't touch a Western promise with a bargepole, as the only horses I know by him are chronic rearers (though I will admit, the dams were also difficult!). 

I have a Last News gelding, and he worries quite a bit, but is very lazy to ride. He also has a great step. Have not met another Last News though, so not sure if he is characteristic of the bloodline!


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## Lolo (30 December 2011)

oldvic said:



			I have found this too - they try but are possibly not the cleverest so are easily confused.
		
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Yes, this has been a fairly typical Reggie trait. He tries very hard, but isn't the brightest spark although he does pick things up remarkably quickly once it's been clearly explained!

We had a Carnaval Drum mare (only a pony though) and she was very quirky- she went well if she liked you, and if she didn't you could get off and go home or she'd make you! She was very sharp and clever and very talented though.


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## dingle12 (30 December 2011)

Pie in the sky - to brainy for there own good would rather argue with you then do the job, then 10 min after just do the work ?


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## TarrSteps (30 December 2011)

To be fair to the Jumbo I know, he is a lovely fellow and suits his very busy owner down to the ground because he's so consistent. He just looks like he should be more than he is but I suspect with a strong ride he would be!

Re the rearing, the offspring of one horse I knew all seemed this way inclined. It was their ' thing' when they got stressed. I will say it's been my experience that these ' go to' inclinations do seem to run in families, more than complete temperaments. So two horses might have the same inclination but very different arousal thresholds.


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## DoesDressage (30 December 2011)

Does anyone have/or have experience off a negro horse? I'm very interested in his offspring and from what I've seen of his babies I would really love one in the future!!


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## kerryflower (31 December 2011)

Any info on doruto or Wellington? My horse's sire is the kwpn farrington and Ollie looks so alike him! He has a fantastic temperament both on and riding although he is very clever and quick to find subtle evasions to get out of doing things properly. Can have a ginger temper tantrum but nothing horrid if u make sure u tell him off! Just interested to know more about his sire lines as it seems he follows his dad!


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## Fairy Dust (31 December 2011)

Anyone have any info on 'No Complaints' as a Stallion? Mine is very sensitive to ride, the easiest horse to deal with on the ground but can be a bit nappy when ridden and needs a lot of confidence from the rider. Any info would be great, or on his half brother 'Up with the Lark'?


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## MBSJ (31 December 2011)

Anyone had any experiences of Indoctro horses?


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## Countrychic (31 December 2011)

Accondy   Very stressy in the stable, prone to weaving, aggressive, sharp but manageable to ride and talented horses.

Balou du rouet.   Talented and polite

Orklund.   Hot as hell but super stars


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## Ferdinase514 (31 December 2011)

Mildred said:



			Yes one of the mares I'm thinking of is also an absolute cow! 

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Shhhhh!! 

Squizz, our new one is Catherston (Nutsafe/Nurjew)

He's quite "athletic"


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## Ferdinase514 (31 December 2011)

PoppyAnderson said:





kerilli said:



			Dont get me wrong, they were lovely, lovely horses and I really liked them, as they had plenty of personality and character but they were, as someone else said earlier, more of a pro's horse.
		
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Yep...sums up my opinion of Squizz so far. At 14.1hh he was not ever going to be a child's pony!
		
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## GCC (31 December 2011)

i find most horses off King Of Diamonds or Sunny Boy lines tend to be a bit of a pain in the **** until they are about 6.. very quirky and just a bit ignorant, but then I've known OK ones, just generally, but then i am biased to warm-bloods anyway! find a lot of the Z's tend to have a little something about them. I've had a few Mecklenburgs now and i find them generally a really nice temperament. Had a contender horse that was one of the bravest I've sat on and jumped like a stag, and had a very human eye, seriously thought he understood what i was saying half the time!


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## GCC (31 December 2011)

foxy1 said:



			Any views on Chellano Z progeny?

I have a foal with Cruising on the Dam's side and Chellano Z/ Ramiro on the Sire's.

He'd better blooming well jump!! 

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Person i worked with had 2 Chellano z horses and found they got better with time. one was a pain the backside to break but ended up the safest most lovely jumper ever and had the confidence to take on any track. The other was a dream to break but never had the edge to go further than NC really. Both had a great jump though, think any of the Chellano Z horses have a distinctive jump, i recognize the bascule anywhere!

I've also had a Ramiro, dream on the ground, occasionally awkward to ride, if you told him off you he would take offence and you couldn't get sense out of him until the next day! That being said, when he went well, wow he went well!


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## ElleJS (31 December 2011)

seabsicuit2 said:



			Would agree on Cruisings being complete lazy sods but talented when you can get it out of them!

Jumbos they say you have to 'ride it like you stole it" however that could never be said for Headley Britannia or her full brother Kingdom who were always keen and willing?

Rock Kings-light,small horses that are quite sharp and quirky, excellent jumpers
		
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Fascinating thread to read.


The Jumbo's I know with pro riders are all a bit tricky and either stuffy or tend to be very heavy in the mouth and tuck their heads in but are always such good jumpers, all have gone far BSJ/Adv eventing. 

Very true about Rock Kings- the 4 I have had over the years are all such good jumpers apart from one that is saved as a foundation broodmare (but has the same ability) they all got to adv eventing/1m30 bsj- 2 of them went 4*. They are light on their feet but sharp and a bit quirky and wouldn't suffers fools lightly. Very complicated personalities but intelligent. 

All the Cavalier Royals I know have all been immensly talented but little b*****s!! Pro's horses for sure.

Heard that some Mill Laws are tricky. The one we have on our yard is quirky but capable but again wouldn't be an amateurs horse but has won BE with a pro. 

Also have a 5yo cruising- she is very laid back to ride almost lazy but a real worrier and a bit nervy and needs lots of reassurance. Very good jumper though have high hopes for her. 

Has anyone here got a Harlequin du Carel? All the ones I have seen are just so fabulous over a fence. Mine is 5, little, only 15.3 and jumping foxhunters will 1* event next year but my word she is a cheeky little minx!!! In the loveliest possible way but has two buttons- lazy or bouncy rubber ball and you have to have your witts about you! She is also very trainable and we can teach her all sorts of tricks very easily! 

Also all the Ghareeb horses I have come across inc mine have the sweetest personalities and all looks so similar!!! They all seem to do really well eventing as although normally athletic and able jumpers (perhaps not so flashy as some) they seem to have the 'we will try really hard for you' genes installed! The ones we all want for an event horse!!!


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## Britestar (31 December 2011)

From the dark and distant past but Tudor Diver's had a bit of a rep as head bangers. I bought one and loved her to bits, yes she was a bit 'different' but would jump the moon for me.

I loved her so much, I bred one too, much to the horror of everyone around me! She had endless talent, but she and I never quite clicked. I still have both, aged 29yrs and 19yrs.

The younger has now had her own baby, who will be 4 this year. We'll see what becomes of him


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## Llanali (31 December 2011)

ElleJS said:



			Fascinating thread to read.

Also all the Ghareeb horses I have come across inc mine have the sweetest personalities and all looks so similar!!! They all seem to do really well eventing as although normally athletic and able jumpers (perhaps not so flashy as some) they seem to have the 'we will try really hard for you' genes installed! The ones we all want for an event horse!!!
		
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I didn't know you had one too!! I am in good company then. Could we see pictures please? Wonder how similar ours are to look at!


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## Meowy Catkin (31 December 2011)

All the Cavalier Royals I know have all been immensly talented but little b*****s!! Pro's horses for sure.
		
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I rode a friend's Cavalier Royal gelding a couple of times. He really was fantastic and very willing but he did have a tendancy to over-react to silly things eg, if there was twig on the ground, a weed looked at him funny or the tarmack had a patch in a darker colour, he would whip-round so quickly and suddenly. Luckily I was in a twig and weed free school when I rode him. 

I have high hopes for my AV Monyoya (Carmargue on the Dam's side) arab youngster. He really is very sweet, kind and forward thinking. He'll flag his tail and prance at any excuse, but so far even when very excited, he still listens to his handler.

My filly is by Calimeer and she is very willing, bold, brave and again forward thinking. She is also very clever (likes to be occupied) and can be cheeky.


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## Cortez (31 December 2011)

Cruisings tend to be headcases, but athletic alright. Cavaliers suit me, but not for the fainthearted. Don't know very many Doddington Flyers, but those I've worked with have all been athletic and good to train, perhaps more for a pro rider 'tho.


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## Cortez (31 December 2011)

Going back a bit, Euphemisms were all nutjobs, and nasty with it.


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## Auslander (31 December 2011)

GCC said:



			I've also had a Ramiro, dream on the ground, occasionally awkward to ride, if you told him off you he would take offence and you couldn't get sense out of him until the next day! That being said, when he went well, wow he went well!
		
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Sniggers - sounds like both the second gen Ramiro's I've had! My big boy used to get terribly upset, and his sister would get a massive marish strop on and flatly refuse to co-operate with any requests, no matter how small! They were both by Into the West, out of an Irish TB mare - The mare had very strong opinions about everything, and he was KWPN - nuff said!

The mare was the nappiest thing I have ever sat on - but in a plant-y way. She'd stop dead, shut her eyes, stick her nose out and brace herself - and there was NOTHING you could do to shift her once she'd assumed the position! She was so unbelievably talented over a fence, stunning to look at, and moved beautifully, but inside the gorgeous exterior beat the heart of a camel...


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## druid (31 December 2011)

Sportznight said:



			Gone West mares - delightfully sweet and kind natured!
		
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His full sister is the nicest mare I've had the pleasure of dealing with, hands down


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## kerilli (31 December 2011)

going back a bit, but did anyone else have any experience with any Skyboys? Mine was a dream to a fence but probably the MOST opinionated horse I've ever dealt with. I think she spent 10 years carefully training me on the flat, rather than vice-versa...

I had a Smooth Stepper, a real comedian but very genuine and probably the cleverest horses i've ever known, in a good way.

I was told about a stallion down south about 20-30 years ago (TB iirc) who was lethal and every horse he sired was also a vicious nutjob, the person who told me had dealt with quite a few and said they all had to be shot. wtf would anyone breed with that?!?!


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## beano (31 December 2011)

Anyone have any experience of  or Bazaars horses? I've got a 4yo out of Bazaars Exclusive with Welton Crackerjack grandsire. Very talented, very athletic but wow can he buck! Have heard that the 'Welton Crackerjack buck' is a known trait.


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## PoppyAnderson (31 December 2011)

Auslander said:



			but inside the gorgeous exterior beat the heart of a camel...
		
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*snigger*


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## caramel (31 December 2011)

Anyone know what Bandmaster/Accondy horses are like? I rather like them as stallions but wonder what their offspring are like...

Also interested in Cayman Kai offspring as he's a half brother to my boy (on sire's side). I know there aren't many Imperial Frontier babies so interested to see any similarities...


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## kerilli (31 December 2011)

Auslander said:



			She was so unbelievably talented over a fence, stunning to look at, and moved beautifully, but inside the gorgeous exterior beat the heart of a camel...
		
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sounds like a Matinée horse i knew once...


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## Freddie19 (31 December 2011)

Master Imp, Imp by name, Imp by nature........not for the slow or faint-hearted!


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## ellie_e (31 December 2011)

MBSJ said:



			Anyone had any experiences of Indoctro horses?
		
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The one I know, is sharp, but beautiful


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## ellie_e (31 December 2011)

What about Chicos boy - Carpaccio?


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## barneyhunter (31 December 2011)

I had a Master Imp x Cavalier - absolutely the sweetest, kindest horse.  As he got older he did get quite sharp with his spooks but nothing too difficult.

Light in the hand and you could clamber on him bare back in the field - get him to a show though and he could be rather elevated!!!!

Loved him to bits but not very brave


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## teapot (31 December 2011)

I worked/dealt with a Just a Monarch out of Killinghurst Girl (so pretty decent breeding on both sides) gelding and well, the only word to describe him would be a runt. Didn't take to eventing that well either.

I just find it interesting that result of two good lines was a bad one. He was very very easy to do though.


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## josie_s (31 December 2011)

Catherston Dance In the Dark sticks his tongue out when asked as does my 4yr old by him.


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## kirstyhen (31 December 2011)

Mally is King of Diamonds and I think everyone knows how straight forward she is! 

How is this for a Quirk?













Spot the Difference??  Mal and the reason I bought Mally! 

As well as looking shockingly the same (photos really don't do it justice!) they are ridiculously similar in nature despite have completely different starts in life. Very honest, straightforward horses, but both have 'issues' that send them completely hysterical! Jump with exactly the same technique, even when they get it wrong, they get it wrong in the same way! 

The only linking factor between them is Clover Hill, he is both of their Grandsire, but that's it!


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## splash30 (31 December 2011)

Anyone got horses with Aldato either as sire or grand sire?


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## siennamum (31 December 2011)

GCC said:



			i find most horses off King Of Diamonds or Sunny Boy lines tend to be a bit of a pain in the **** until they are about 6.. very quirky and just a bit ignorant,
		
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Ah, you'vemet my KoD 5 year old then,  he is starting to be a little saint rising 6 so I live in hope.

His dad (Old Leighlin) isn't famous but seems to have offspring who are very alike. Love to work, can be really scopy, but a bit eccentric/opinionated - don't like clippers/farrier/leaves etc. I know 3, all the same.


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## abitodd (31 December 2011)

kerryflower said:



			Any info on doruto or Wellington? My horse's sire is the kwpn farrington and Ollie looks so alike him! He has a fantastic temperament both on and riding although he is very clever and quick to find subtle evasions to get out of doing things properly. Can have a ginger temper tantrum but nothing horrid if u make sure u tell him off! Just interested to know more about his sire lines as it seems he follows his dad!
		
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Mine has doruto on the damside. I have heard(from a dutch trainer) that doruto blood is very rare and reknowned for being late maturing. Doruto himself did not get his act together 'til he was 10+. 
My chap seems to be following suit.........He is now eight and at last growing out of his ginga-ninga temper tantrums.........although is still good at the subtle evasions.


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## seabsicuit2 (1 January 2012)

Kerreli was that the TB stallion Precoucious? They are all apparently just downright evil! I had one of his on the yard ( an abandoned livery, how delightful) and it was seriously the most evil sod of a horse I've ever encountered. I never knew it was possible for a horse to be so evil& genuinely nasty.


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## Oscar (1 January 2012)

I've got a Demonstrator with Weltmeyer in the Damline, he's HUGE (nearly 18hh) but is a big black lamb!! Completely trustworthy on the ground - can be sharp ridden, but nothing nasty or malicious.  Only downside is he chews everything! Rugs, tails, haynets etc!!


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## kerilli (1 January 2012)

seabsicuit2 said:



			Kerreli was that the TB stallion Precoucious? They are all apparently just downright evil! I had one of his on the yard ( an abandoned livery, how delightful) and it was seriously the most evil sod of a horse I've ever encountered. I never knew it was possible for a horse to be so evil& genuinely nasty.
		
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I don't think so, I would have remembered that name.
Afaik he sired a handful and every single one had to be shot, they were all downright evil (with no previous bad treatment history to excuse any of them either.)


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## imr (1 January 2012)

DoesDressage said:



			Does anyone have/or have experience off a negro horse? I'm very interested in his offspring and from what I've seen of his babies I would really love one in the future!!
		
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Kind of. Have a negretto mare (ie a negro grandchild). She is going through a bit of a teenager stroppy phase at the moment (5 1/2 yo do I have to do it today I dont feel like it type stuff) but is actually very rideable albeit a little lazy. I feel confident we are going through a phase as opposed to this being default mode if you see what I mean. Clever, playful, has super movement, very good conformation, very pretty and a lovely little friendly cuddly thing albeit a bit silly and not brave. I think she is going to be fab but a bit of a later developer. She is rather big but I think this is more from her dam line (negretto wasnt huge). I know someone with  6yo also a negro grandchild but different sire and hers is also a bit of a later developer.


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## Clodagh (1 January 2012)

Kirstyhen - both of those are a spitting image of a Clover Hill mare I had. She was a bitch! Friend who was a sjing groom said never buy a Clover Hill mare. She was a groom in the days when Irish horses were out there.

Interesting about Western Promsie - friend has a bred a Silver Patriach x Western Promise mare and the result is a evil, nasty horse who thinks he was only born with his hind legs.


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## Rosiefan (1 January 2012)

As if I didn't know it already, this thread is convincing me that breeding horses is a minefield with just the occasional lucky strike.  Good luck to all you breeders out there .


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## Baydale (1 January 2012)

Rosiefan said:



			As if I didn't know it already, this thread is convincing me that breeding horses is a minefield with just the occasional lucky strike.  Good luck to all you breeders out there .
		
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I was thinking the same, Rosiefan, and I'm one of those that is breeding them - more fool me.  Maybe I've got lucky so far but I suppose the proof of the pudding will be when they're grown up and doing a job, and our oldest is rising 5 so not quite there yet. 

I do wonder with some horses if they're labelled as misfits when they're actually square pegs that people are trying to shove into round holes?


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## siennamum (1 January 2012)

Baydale said:



			I was thinking the same, Rosiefan, and I'm one of those that is breeding them - more fool me.  Maybe I've got lucky so far but I suppose the proof of the pudding will be when they're grown up and doing a job, and our oldest is rising 5 so not quite there yet. 

I do wonder with some horses if they're labelled as misfits when they're actually square pegs that people are trying to shove into round holes? 

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I agree. I'm sure you had an Old Leighlin/Laughton Flight horse, which you were allowing to use his brain and work stuff out rather than forcing him to be an automaton (I remember a long ago post). So many horses have to fit a production line mentality, when in reality some like to be told what to do, some hate being told what to do.


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## TarrSteps (1 January 2012)

Or pigs people are trying to teach to sing.


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## kirstyhen (1 January 2012)

Kirstyhen - both of those are a spitting image of a Clover Hill mare I had. She was a bitch! Friend who was a sjing groom said never buy a Clover Hill mare. She was a groom in the days when Irish horses were out there.
		
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How funny! Mal and Jaffa are wonderful, soft as grease to be around and honest, hard working horses that thrive on work.
In fact both of them have caused other people to go out specifically looking for a Clover Hill mare!

I said I'd never even consider a mare when I bought Mal!


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## xLucyGx (1 January 2012)

Does anyone have a horse by Olympic lux? My mares by him, she's a poppet and very talented but likes to do bare minimum if she can get away with it.


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## chloeeze (1 January 2012)

I have 2 3yos that I bought from Ireland and recently backed:
Rose Grey Gelding by Chillout (ISH stallion by Trak Abdullah) out of a Rantis Diamond mare
Brown small mare by Puissance out of a Cavalier Royale mare
The gelding has been an absolute doddle to break, I really cannot speak highly enough of him, he is super clever, well mannered, lovely to handle and has super paces and a scopey jump. He has two full brothers one of which is 2* eventing in Germany and the other sold for a large amount as a show horse. I really would recommend Chillout as a sire, I know of another mare by him who is jumping 1.30/1.40.

The mare has been trickier to back but not unduly so, she has a super scopey jump but doesn't like you moving about in the saddle or too much leg. Puissances and Cavalier are both meant to be sharp but so far (touch wood) I think she will be the right type of 'sharp' to be competitive if you see what I mean. She is the spit looks wise of Puissance but she does have big 'Cavalier ears'!


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## chloeeze (1 January 2012)

Ps. Ive also heard that Olympic Lux's throws better jumpers than Lux Z.


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## xLucyGx (1 January 2012)

Chloeeze - Darcy and Rosie? Is this Chloe at my yard, hurst farm? If it is i am still very jealous of your horses, amazing breeding and from ireland? Can't get much better than that! Lux z i haven't seen as many eventers? I've seen more by olympic lux but that may be just me.


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## millitiger (1 January 2012)

I actually think this thread goes to prove that you can't really guess what a horse will be like just by looking at the stallion- it seems rather like star signs which always have 'something' to fit your personality but I find it hard to see how billions of people can have the same traits because of the month you were born in.

I have owned 3 x Oldleighlin horses and without doubt they were the easiest, quietest and most trainable horses I have ever had. I only sold 2 of them on as they were too quiet for me really and didn't seem to have any competitive bones in their bodies!

Yet someone on this thread thinks they eccentric/opinionated which couldn't be further from the truth for my 3 or any of the others I have known (another 5-6 on top of mine).


My One More Tiger is a feisty, opinionated mare who is pushy on the ground and can be sharp to ride- totally out of character for OMT children according to other H&H users! Her dam was an absolute doll, very quiet and a pleasure to deal with.

I also have a Primitive Proposal x Criminal Law x Gort Boy gelding who according to hearsay about those stallions should be pretty much unrideable- I should know the answer to that by the end of this year


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## Llanali (1 January 2012)

wonkey_donkey said:



			Not many straightforward offspring from many stallions then eh ......!!!  LOL
		
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I don't know, Ghareeb seems to have gotten away with no bad words LOL


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## chloeeze (1 January 2012)

Hey Lucy tis me! what a coincidence, so funny! What a small world. Thanks for your compliments on Darcy and Rosie. Lexi is lovely as well though.  I think most of the Lux Zs are showjumping more than eventing tbh. We will have to talk Irish breeding at the yard sometime! x


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## ElleJS (1 January 2012)

splash30 said:



			Anyone got horses with Aldato either as sire or grand sire?
		
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I had a mare by Aldato, she was jumped in Holland but don't think she was good enough to go to the top so came here and sold on- I bought her after she had done a few BE100's with a YR as a fun project and she went to Advanced level in one season and was jumping 1m30's. (she wasn't fast enough to go 3/4* for me) She was lovely, beautiful and laid back but could be spooky when her mind wasn't kept busy but she was very straightforward and was bought by an amateur who went on to win with her also, she has soundness issues which was a shame but hopefully she'll be having babies very soon.


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## GCC (1 January 2012)

Auslander said:



			Sniggers - sounds like both the second gen Ramiro's I've had! My big boy used to get terribly upset, and his sister would get a massive marish strop on and flatly refuse to co-operate with any requests, no matter how small! They were both by Into the West, out of an Irish TB mare - The mare had very strong opinions about everything, and he was KWPN - nuff said!

The mare was the nappiest thing I have ever sat on - but in a plant-y way. She'd stop dead, shut her eyes, stick her nose out and brace herself - and there was NOTHING you could do to shift her once she'd assumed the position! She was so unbelievably talented over a fence, stunning to look at, and moved beautifully, but inside the gorgeous exterior beat the heart of a camel...
		
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Mine was a second gen too! just wasn't worth the hassle when mine went into self destruct mode! bit of a waste of time arguing, had the personality of a stroppy mare!! shame he was a a gelding really... Found a lot of them don't help themselves out, they have bags of talent you can see it as they are gliding across the field and popping the fence out of it, but under saddle it takes a lot of work to channel them! think you summed it up perfectly "but inside the gorgeous exterior beat the heart of a camel..." !


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## ElleJS (1 January 2012)

Llanali said:



			I didn't know you had one too!! I am in good company then. Could we see pictures please? Wonder how similar ours are to look at!
		
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Llanali said:



			I don't know, Ghareeb seems to have gotten away with no bad words LOL
		
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Mine is bay and leggy! Her full brother is 1* eventing as a 6yo. She is probably the most straightforward mare I have ever had in my yard. Very sensitive but tries hard all the time and has a wow jump! I unfortunately don't own her and I am supposed to sell her but after a massive time waster (who pulled out after she passed a 5* vetting!!) I get to play with her a bit longer. 
There are some pics on my fb http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f....603896083021.157357.277003326&type=3&theater she is the bay called Cherry (its an album of all the 4/5yo's developent over the past 12months!) these were taken only a few months after she was broken in this year so looks a bit scrawny in the first photos. She has put on alot more topline now. 

Everyone I know who has a Ghareeb says the same about how lovely they are. I'm sure there are not so great ones but you do have to remember that the mare counts for a lot more than the sire!


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## TarrSteps (1 January 2012)

millitiger said:



			I actually think this thread goes to prove that you can't really guess what a horse will be like just by looking at the stallion- it seems rather like star signs which always have 'something' to fit your personality but I find it hard to see how billions of people can have the same traits because of the month you were born in.
		
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I'd sort of agree but sort of not. 

There is no question genetics do play a part in temperament but obviously not isolations.  They definitely do give horses tendencies but so much of it is what we make of it.  I would say mares bring more to it, too - it's such a human thing to think somehow the male is the most important part of the equation. 

And really, most people don't see a large enough sample to generalise.  It is so much about seeing trends and patterns, not this horse is this way or that way. I think that's a great value of the big studbooks, if people actually bother to use the information.  The breeding reports track large groups and can start to generalise about things like which stallions improve jumping form or consistently produce ridability scores better than the dams'.  Interesting stuff.

So much depends on how you define your terms, too.  Good approval scores for ridability don't mean "beach donkey" and good temperament reviews don't mean cuddly. We've just had an example of a horse on here displaying what I considered a perfectly reasonable reaction to his situation and an expected level of sensitivity and athleticism for his breeding and yet many people considered him dangerous and unreasonable.  If they'd seen the same horse in different cicumstances I suspect they might have assessed his "quirks" very differently.

There are some stallions that are frighteningly prepotent but they are generally the exception rather than the rule and end up being the sort of "super stallions" people know and so attribute all sorts of things to that one piece of the pedigree.  

Re the dangerous horses, there have been some famously horrid racehorses - St Simon lines for instance - but they ran so they stayed and, I suspect, people kinda liked it.


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## TarrSteps (1 January 2012)

Oh, and I'm stealing the "camel" quote.


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## Kiribati_uk (1 January 2012)

Any TBs who grandsire is ALLEGED, Sir Harry Lewis ,Flemensfirth, Rashar, Safety Catch are usually hardy at best, nutjobs at worst.
Alleged is the stallion Monty roberts talks about in his book he had special covering pen cos he hated people, put many peeps in hospital.
Great Palms usually go wrong in the wind.
Rode some very nice Oscars and beneficals
Everything by Grange Bouncer Jumps and seems to be nice natured and so do Colin Diamonds( LOVE THEM!)
Anyone got anything by Primmores pioneer??(old boss use to ride him would love to know what his children are like)


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## louisem (1 January 2012)

Sorry I'm late....
Belgian sire 'Unique' tends to donate his breathing issues
'Darco' cold backs and/or girthing problems as youngsters
'Pion' and sometimes 'Jokinal de Bornival' blood, sweet itch
'Lys de Darmen' dares to give windsuckers and weavers
However all of the above have given many good horses,just some of them have had a few 'extra' options......


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## Luci07 (1 January 2012)

Clover hill...about from normally producing good jumpers tends to still have stock with the most enormous donkey ears (which I love). KOD I have had 3 from his line and known a further 4. All wildly different! But would walk away from a Primitive Rising horse - had one and directly knew a further 4, all direct descendants. All were appalling cribbers!


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## BeckyCandy (1 January 2012)

I know a Jumbo baby. He's pretty backwards and refuses to walk on alot just stands and sets himself in hand-refuses to load just stares at you other times will walk straight everythings a make me answer. Lacks umph when ridden as well.

Met a Weltmyer offspring mad as a box of frogs used to turn himself inside out for no reason. Wouldn't let you take up a contact when mounting so had to just pray he wouldn't move. Know a mare that also won't let you take up a contact when ridden.


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## vallin (1 January 2012)

ElleJS said:



			Mine is bay and leggy! Her full brother is 1* eventing as a 6yo. She is probably the most straightforward mare I have ever had in my yard. Very sensitive but tries hard all the time and has a wow jump! I unfortunately don't own her and I am supposed to sell her but after a massive time waster (who pulled out after she passed a 5* vetting!!) I get to play with her a bit longer. 
There are some pics on my fb http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f....603896083021.157357.277003326&type=3&theater she is the bay called Cherry (its an album of all the 4/5yo's developent over the past 12months!) these were taken only a few months after she was broken in this year so looks a bit scrawny in the first photos. She has put on alot more topline now. 

Everyone I know who has a Ghareeb says the same about how lovely they are. I'm sure there are not so great ones but you do have to remember that the mare counts for a lot more than the sire!
		
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I would really rather like Butterfly...please?


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## EstherYoung (1 January 2012)

but you do have to remember that the mare counts for a lot more than the sire!
		
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Indeedy. The old desert arab breeders used to say that the basic frame came from the sire but everything else came from the mare. They believed that the very soul of the horse could be traced back down the tail female line and as a result their breeding aims really focussed on the strength of the female lines.

That said, the sire of our two grey arabs really does stamp his stock. They are all deliciously eccentric, but they all have a way of getting under your skin.


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## PoppyAnderson (1 January 2012)

Clodagh said:



			Friend who was a sjing groom said never buy a Clover Hill mare
		
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My mare is descended from Clover Hill. She's 99% angel, 1% the devil incarnate!


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## MandyMoo (1 January 2012)

seabsicuit2 said:



			Would agree on Cruisings being complete lazy sods but talented when you can get it out of them!
		
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I have seen this as well! ridden a couple of them and they have been very laid back! (but talented)

My horse Monty is by Graf Magna, related to Graf Grannus and Graf Fennmaster, and have been told by numerous people that the Graf line are all very brave and talented, so make good eventers... however are a bit sharp and silly with EVERYTHING that isn't put infront of them as a jump...!!! Which to be frank, is so true of Monty and another Graf horse i know of, so talented and will jump anything, but walk them PAST  jump and they look at it like it is going to eat them!!

Clover lines always seem to make very good jumpers.

But looking at this thread, it does prove that breeding and characteristics and quirks passing onto offspring really is still debatable!!!


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## PoppyAnderson (1 January 2012)

MandyMoo said:



			Clover lines always seem to make very good jumpers.

!!
		
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For a bog trotter, she is very very good.


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## kirstyhen (1 January 2012)

Mally's Dam and her Grand Dam are apparently the sweetest, quietest animals alive. Mally is the spit of her Sire and has his jump, but she is her Mother's daughter!


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## SamandMonty (1 January 2012)

louisem said:



			Sorry I'm late....

'Darco' cold backs and/or girthing problems as youngsters
		
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My boy is a Darco Grandbaby but never had any girthing issue or coldbackedness?? (not sure thats a word lol). 
Anyone know anything about Winningmood as thats his daddy?


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## charlimouse (1 January 2012)

I personally would never touch a horse by Classic. Where I used to work there were 5 horses by him, all at different ages. All of them were very quirky and not particularly talented.

Does anybody have experiance of Erhaab (TB) progeny?


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## MandyMoo (1 January 2012)

Forgot to say in my previous post on this thread;

My previous horse Dani was by Kris, an irish thoroughbred racehorse... and his progeny are apparently very sharp and inherit his racing skills - however my poor Dani didn't  he was a steady, easy to handle lad who would turn his little honest heart to anything!!!


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## carterk3 (1 January 2012)

Wow isn't this an interesting thread. Does anyone have experience of trakenhers? I have a little chestnut mare whose grandad is Vatout. Interesting to say the least! Very intelligent, thinks her whole world should just be in our school as everything is else is MUCH too scary but is very beautiful and VERY clever. Everything has to be done in a tacful way to say the least. Terrible manners on the ground but I think that maybe down to the way she has been pampered all her life, unfortunately by me!


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## pigsmight:) (1 January 2012)

What an interesting thread! Would love to know if anyone has any experiences of any horses with similar breeding to mine.

I have a mare by Acapulco Z ( acorado x calpso) Who is stunning to look at and deal with on the ground but super sensitive to ride! I don't know how much of this is down to breedig/ upbringing.

My 3yr old is by valiant ( for pleasure) and out of a jasper mare, she is tiny a very pony 15. 2hh and has the most stunning temp she is the most lovely horse I have ever met!


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## Frankie10 (1 January 2012)

Anyone know anything about  stedinger& his traits ? Have a 5 year old by him who was a tyrant to start with but who I am completely in love with now.
V quirky, but gorgeous to ride.


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## Frankie10 (1 January 2012)

Forgot to add- fab thread!


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## Baydale (1 January 2012)

carterk3 said:



			Wow isn't this an interesting thread. Does anyone have experience of trakenhers? I have a little chestnut mare whose grandad is Vatout. Interesting to say the least! Very intelligent, thinks her whole world should just be in our school as everything is else is MUCH too scary but is very beautiful and VERY clever. Everything has to be done in a tacful way to say the least. Terrible manners on the ground but I think that maybe down to the way she has been pampered all her life, unfortunately by me!
		
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TarrSteps says that trakehners were bred "to gallop headlong into bayonets", hence why they're how they are.  I've got a Grafenstolz 2yo and a Wish Upon A Star yearling so I must be a glutton for punishment.


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## TarrSteps (1 January 2012)

Oi! Context is everything, BD!

I am actually a big Trakehner fan but it's true, the book does value "toughness" more than most due to their history.  They also are the only book that accepts only TB and Arab outside blood, as opposed to the other "open" books which take horses from other WBFSH books and even have reciprocal approvals.  I would say they breed to type more consistently than the other books, which makes sense. And it explains why you see so many eventing, particularly as they usually move well and are pretty.  Traditionally people from TB/eventing backgrounds usually get on well with them.  In the past people who favoured more "old style" warmbloods tended to not be so keen but in the last 20 or 30 years the other books have done so much refining - often using Trakehners - it's not such a radical shift these days.

The breed also puts a lot of emphasis on the damlines, hence their naming practice of using the dam's first letter. 

All that said, I am not so up on my UK Trakehner breeding (the only stallion on this thread I know well personally is Abdullah!) . . . .where is Volatis when you need her? (Also speaking of remarkable injury recovery!)


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## CParker (1 January 2012)

charlimouse said:



			Does anybody have experiance of Erhaab (TB) progeny?
		
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Yes i have a chesnut by Erhaab he has the sweetest temperament and an amazing jump he never made the race track think, would definately have another!!


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## Mrs_Wishkabibble (1 January 2012)

ElleJS said:



			Fascinating thread to read.


Has anyone here got a Harlequin du Carel? All the ones I have seen are just so fabulous over a fence. Mine is 5, little, only 15.3 and jumping foxhunters will 1* event next year but my word she is a cheeky little minx!!! In the loveliest possible way but has two buttons- lazy or bouncy rubber ball and you have to have your witts about you! She is also very trainable and we can teach her all sorts of tricks very easily!
		
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I have a Harlequin mare, she does have a good jump even with a numpty on board like me!
I found her very shy and untrusting when I got her but have had her a year and she is great now she trusts us


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## toomanyhorses26 (1 January 2012)

not so much a quirk but have been told that Robellino offspring have rather large extravagent jumps - my ginger certainly fullfills this


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## coreteam1 (1 January 2012)

bellatrix said:



			Does anyone know anything about Cavalier (Royale) offspring?
		
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A friend of mine has a lovely natured gelding by cavalier royale.  He is currently competing at elementary level bd with a temperament to die for


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## Chloe_GHE (1 January 2012)

seabsicuit2 said:



			Saddlers wells, and a lot of his sons, consistently throw horses that look like his sire Northern Dancer, bright bay with white blaze and white socks/feet, can be quite top heavy, square , butty horses, but with gorgeous temperments.
		
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spot on! I sold a SW a few years back and he fitted this description to a tea!


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## Chloe_GHE (1 January 2012)

anyone have any info on TB stallion CHEVALIER?...

That's Dustry's daddy, and I always thought D looked a bit saddlers wellsy, and turn out Chevalier has SW in his blood line! who knew?...


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## foxy1 (1 January 2012)

SamandMonty said:



			My boy is a Darco Grandbaby but never had any girthing issue or coldbackedness?? (not sure thats a word lol). 
Anyone know anything about Winningmood as thats his daddy?
		
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Winningmood AND Darco!! Lucky you!!


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## charlimouse (1 January 2012)

CParker said:



			Yes i have a chesnut by Erhaab he has the sweetest temperament and an amazing jump he never made the race track think, would definately have another!!
		
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Harry the iron grey in my sig is by him. He raced both on the flat and over hurdles, never won , but came second a few times, and did amass a fair few winnings. He is a very sweet horse, with a huge jump, but is very nappy when he wants to be!


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## Kiribati_uk (1 January 2012)

Chloe_GHE said:



			anyone have any info on TB stallion CHEVALIER?...

That's Dustry's daddy, and I always thought D looked a bit saddlers wellsy, and turn out Chevalier has SW in his blood line! who knew?... 

Click to expand...

Hi yard i worked at in ireland had a few foals by him and they were all HUGE brave foals, don't know what they are like know tho they should be 4/5year olds now.


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## tonitot (1 January 2012)

Sportznight I can imagine he wads! They always seem to be very narrow which makes it hard to stay on them  

I find most fillies in racing are nutjobs though a filly I ride by Tau Ceti is lovely  her half sister is by OCC and she's a complete scat bag 

seabiscuit, we had a Saddlers Wells colt at work, lovely horse  he was bay with three white stockings, white in his tail and a big white face. His name is Vasily, he moved to another yard before his first race and has done well. 

My mare is by Tobougg, she's quite easy going but can't half throw a strop, other Tobouggs I've known are pretty much the same


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## Chloe_GHE (1 January 2012)

Kiribati_uk said:



			Hi yard i worked at in ireland had a few foals by him and they were all HUGE brave foals, don't know what they are like know tho they should be 4/5year olds now.
		
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Yes he is super brave too, doesn't seem to be phased by anything like he's seen it all before.


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## oldvic (1 January 2012)

Chloe_GHE said:



			anyone have any info on TB stallion CHEVALIER?...

That's Dustry's daddy, and I always thought D looked a bit saddlers wellsy, and turn out Chevalier has SW in his blood line! who knew?... 

Click to expand...

I only know one who is a lovely horse. He's quite lazy but can be quite cheeky if he thinks he can get away with it and finds everything very easy even though he is naturally on his forehand.


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## Chloe_GHE (1 January 2012)

oldvic said:



			I only know one who is a lovely horse. He's quite lazy but can be quite cheeky if he thinks he can get away with it and finds everything very easy even though he is naturally on his forehand.
		
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just like D he finds life a piece of cake, but deffo built on the downhill, sometimes lazy like if I'm not spot on with a trans' back down he will just flop into walk, but that's more me than him!


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## Firewell (1 January 2012)

What about horses with Danehill bloodlines? Mine has Danehill lines and the stallions are very muscled powerhouses with 
HUGE arses!
Luckily mine is strangely uphill which he may have inherited from his Dams side (she was out of Miswaki).
My horse is cheeky, playful and a bit too clever for his own good but a real trier and as honest as the day is long with the heart of a lion.
Mine used to whip round out hacking when I first got him, not to nap at all but when he was spooked. Apparently his dad did exactly the same! Mine doesn't do it at all anymore as I've trained him to stop and look for a moment instead . Also his Dad was apparently an absolute sweetie and mine is very sweet also. He also has exactly the same head as his dad, his grandad Danehill dancer and his Great Grandad Danehill. Pony head with broad forehead and little ears, like a welsh pony head .


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## kerryflower (1 January 2012)

abitodd said:



			Mine has doruto on the damside. I have heard(from a dutch trainer) that doruto blood is very rare and reknowned for being late maturing. Doruto himself did not get his act together 'til he was 10+. 
My chap seems to be following suit.........He is now eight and at last growing out of his ginga-ninga temper tantrums.........although is still good at the subtle evasions.
		
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Thanks for that  Mine is only 6 and to be fair is a very cool dude and in general, wuite mature. I mean he goes out hacking alone like an old pro and has successfully done his first season eventing at be90 and now working to elementary bd. Interesting ou say slow to mature as physically he does look like he does need to grow into himself a bit and def still has toddler ginger ninja tantrums!! I have heard good things about Doruto lines and the Wellington line but just wanted to knwo if anyone had more info  Did yours have a late growth spurt??


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## Kiribati_uk (1 January 2012)

festivefirewell said:



			What about horses with Danehill bloodlines? Mine has Danehill lines and the stallions are very muscled powerhouses with 
HUGE arses!
Luckily mine is strangely uphill which he may have inherited from his Dams side (she was out of Miswaki).
My horse is cheeky, playful and a bit too clever for his own good but a real trier and as honest as the day is long with the heart of a lion.
Mine used to whip round out hacking when I first got him, not to nap at all but when he was spooked. Apparently his dad did exactly the same! Mine doesn't do it at all anymore as I've trained him to stop and look for a moment instead . Also his Dad was apparently an absolute sweetie and mine is very sweet also. He also has exactly the same head as his dad, his grandad Danehill dancer and his Great Grandad Danehill. Pony head with broad forehead and little ears, like a welsh pony head .
		
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Chevalier is by danehill


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## SamandMonty (1 January 2012)

foxy1 said:



			Winningmood AND Darco!! Lucky you!!
		
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Yep v lucky.. he's such a lovely boy.. really sweet natured and genuine but with such a cheeky streak, but i'm not sure if that is growing up with two cheeky ponies!! 
He looks so much like Winningmood in his head shape and general build. Have heard they mature late though.


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## Auslander (1 January 2012)

TarrSteps said:



			Oh, and I'm stealing the "camel" quote. 

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You're very welcome! I have other highly descriptive phrases for her, but they are not for sharing in polite company!


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## TarrSteps (1 January 2012)

Auslander said:



			You're very welcome! I have other highly descriptive phrases for her, but they are not for sharing in polite company!
		
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I will credit you accordingly.  

I rode a very long, washy chestnut horse in a Mark Todd clinic once and he dubbed it The Camel the first day.  Even the owner didn't get offended as there was more than a passing resemblance. , ,


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## Nic (1 January 2012)

DiMaggio sharp, stressy, no sense of self preservation. Hugely intelligent and with a spectacular 60-0mph 180° spin manoeuvre. I regularly find myself facing the wrong way with no idea how I got there!


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## Aperchristmastree (2 January 2012)

I know a few by Cruising and while they are all different horses they definitely share some aspects.  They were all "people" horses - very affectionate and constantly looking for reassurance.  Also a weird blend of arrogant and insecure that made for quite an interesting ride.  Definitely talented but I would say a pro's ride as long as that pro is very sensitive.


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## Elfen (2 January 2012)

carterk3 said:



			Wow isn't this an interesting thread. Does anyone have experience of trakenhers? I have a little chestnut mare whose grandad is Vatout. Interesting to say the least! Very intelligent, thinks her whole world should just be in our school as everything is else is MUCH too scary but is very beautiful and VERY clever. Everything has to be done in a tacful way to say the least. Terrible manners on the ground but I think that maybe down to the way she has been pampered all her life, unfortunately by me!
		
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I have a vatout son out of a Rinelander mare and a vatout grandson (on mares side) hes by elfenstein who is by hohenstein. Both are extremely beautiful with huge eyes - big boy has very neat pointy ears, young chap has huge flappy ones 

The vatout son is a complete diva - he's sexy and he knows it! You have to have him completely on your side and generally tends to think he knows best about mostly anything. Sharp as anything - spooky and aloof, but when you get it right my god does he work for you  he's basically taught me to ride! 

His nephew couldn't be more different - he's rising three and takes everything in his (enormous) stride - he's long reining, past flappy bags, galloping horses, cars, motor bikes screaming kids - doesn't bat an eyelid in fact. He's the friendliest, softest horse I've ever known. His work ethic is incredible and I'm very excited about getting him under saddle. His maternal sister who also has hohenstein in her breeding has the same easy going temperament and has been a joy to back.


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## illy89 (2 January 2012)

Dashercrumbie said:



			I know a few by Cruising and while they are all different horses they definitely share some aspects.  They were all "people" horses - very affectionate and constantly looking for reassurance.  Also a weird blend of arrogant and insecure that made for quite an interesting ride.  Definitely talented but I would say a pro's ride as long as that pro is very sensitive.
		
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My 5yo's grandsire is Cruising and this is a very accurate description of how he is!! He is the biggest softie ever on the ground just loves people and attention, he would stand and be fussed over all day long. I always find it hard to describe how he is to ride to people as he is such a complex character but 'a weird blend of arrogant and insecure' is exactly him!! I am definitely not a pro and i am only making slow and steady progress with him (had him just over a year), i'm sure the right pro could get a lot more out him much more quickly as i definitely do not find him easy but do really enjoy riding him and having a bit of challenge!!


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## TPO (2 January 2012)

Someone asked about Accondy about 40 posts ago.... 

I've only owned one gelding and NEVER again! He was vicious, dangerous to handle and be in the stable with (so much so vets refused to treat him) and would throw the most almighty tantrums ridden that it was only slightly safer to cling on as if you'd come off I have the feeling he'd have come back to trample over you! He was incredibly clever and would think of a new evasion in the blink of an eye. He was really nappy, would go backwards, up and when none of that worked he took to throwing himself on the ground (ditto when attempting to load).

In his defence he came to me in poor condition and needed a lot of work, It took a year to turn him into a well mannered horse that gave you a nice ride. I've no idea what clicked for him to turn around his behaviour but he turned out as a nice all rounder. He was also a cribber.

I wondered if it was just me so done some digging and the general opinion seemed to be that although Accondy himself was a nice horse his offspring were very tricky with a tendency to be, ahem, "sharp" and untrustworthy. Handle with kid gloves seemed to be the motto of the day

Has anyone any experience with Cape Cross offspring?


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## MotherOfChickens (2 January 2012)

have known several Accondy's (all geldings). all really sharp, stressy-all cribbed/windsucked but all nice/easy enough on the ground. know nothing about their dams though!


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## Hedgewitch13 (2 January 2012)

Carnival Drum seems to pass on a nasty streak. I knew a CD mare who was the nastiest creature I've ever had the displeasure of meeting, and since have heard that it's a known trait from that stallion. 

They may jump to the skies but I certainly wouldn't have a horse that went for you as you passed by or frequently dropped their rider and headed for home. She was pts sleep in the end as she just became too unpredictable and dangerous (more a psychological issue I guess, that got worse as she got older). She was a miserable mare - poor horse.


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## foxy1 (2 January 2012)

I know a mare by Accondy out of a Dam by Welton Crackerjack, She is a really stressy madam who was difficult to train (was with a pro rider) and inspite of being incredibly talented never got further than Novice because she just 'blew up' in the dressage.

There were two very good (Four star) eventers bred from the same Dam so probably not the Crackerjack factor!


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## Jesstickle (2 January 2012)

Chloe_GHE said:



			anyone have any info on TB stallion CHEVALIER?...

That's Dustry's daddy, and I always thought D looked a bit saddlers wellsy, and turn out Chevalier has SW in his blood line! who knew?... 

Click to expand...

Sorry, I'm late to the game but we had several Chevalier colts at work. I'm trying to remember what they were like.... 

I seem to remember them being particularly cuddly. Not that that is in anyway what you want to know of course


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## TarrSteps (2 January 2012)

I know several Cape Cross horses, but all still in racing. I really liked them - good, honest, sweet, hard working horses. Not sure how they'd be in another job but worth a shot. Is that what D is, TPO?

I know 3, all girls. They all jump but personally I think it's a bit of an old style line. I also get the sense he got a lot of mares whose only claim to fame was they could jump a bit, so perhaps his rep is dicey on that account.


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## FanyDuChamp (2 January 2012)

foxy1 said:



			I knew an absolute witch of a mare by Dutch Gold, also had really awful sweetitch
		
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My lad is grandson to Dutch Gold's grandsire, and he is sharpest horse I have ever known and opinionated too. 

Our YO has a foal by Stormhill Mink turning into a really bonny brave lad. A real star for the future out of an extremely well bred Oldenburg mare.
FDC


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## ttt (2 January 2012)

SamandMonty said:



			My boy is a Darco Grandbaby but never had any girthing issue or coldbackedness?? (not sure thats a word lol). 
Anyone know anything about Winningmood as thats his daddy?
		
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I have a Winningmood, my 17yo daughter has done him herself with no girthiness or cold backed issues, in fact, he is superb in every way. I also have another Darco 3yo baby coming within the next few weeks.


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## Jesstickle (2 January 2012)

festivefirewell said:



			What about horses with Danehill bloodlines? Mine has Danehill lines and the stallions are very muscled powerhouses with 
HUGE arses!
Luckily mine is strangely uphill which he may have inherited from his Dams side (she was out of Miswaki).
My horse is cheeky, playful and a bit too clever for his own good but a real trier and as honest as the day is long with the heart of a lion.
Mine used to whip round out hacking when I first got him, not to nap at all but when he was spooked. Apparently his dad did exactly the same! Mine doesn't do it at all anymore as I've trained him to stop and look for a moment instead . Also his Dad was apparently an absolute sweetie and mine is very sweet also. He also has exactly the same head as his dad, his grandad Danehill dancer and his Great Grandad Danehill. Pony head with broad forehead and little ears, like a welsh pony head .
		
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We had a Danehill colt too. And yep, he was a little powerhouse. Very pretty and extremely nice to do on the ground. He was also a little toad to ride though and would cock his jaw and piss off with you. He took one of the lasses through the post and rail fence round our exercise ring once! One of the other girls snapped her collar bone coming off him when he ran through her hand and took a corner too sharp.


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## tantallon (2 January 2012)

coss said:



			Weltmeyer - shiverer  *hides*
		
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That's really interesting I have a mare by  Jazz and Weltmyer is her dam's sire. My mare is a shiverer


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## Jesstickle (2 January 2012)

I personally have one by Green Horizon who I know never raced so unlikely to find much about him although someone might have one of his as he is a well bred chap I believe and has Danzig lines if that's right?


And another by SirGame who I might have better luck with! Mine is a bit of a simple Simon!


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## caramel (2 January 2012)

Anyone got any opinions on Bandmaster? Like him as a stallion but wondered what his progeny are like.


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## AdorableAlice (2 January 2012)

Very successful getting show horses, but the one I tried with view to purchase was sharp.


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## SamandMonty (2 January 2012)

ttt said:



			I have a Winningmood, my 17yo daughter has done him herself with no girthiness or cold backed issues, in fact, he is superb in every way. I also have another Darco 3yo baby coming within the next few weeks.
		
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I did Monty myself.. first attempt at a baby... he was a darling and still is. Absolute dream.. Glad he's not just a one off quirk!!


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## TPO (2 January 2012)

TarrSteps said:



			I know several Cape Cross horses, but all still in racing. I really liked them - good, honest, sweet, hard working horses. Not sure how they'd be in another job but worth a shot. Is that what D is, TPO?

I know 3, all girls. They all jump but personally I think it's a bit of an old style line. I also get the sense he got a lot of mares whose only claim to fame was they could jump a bit, so perhaps his rep is dicey on that account.
		
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Yip, by Cape Cross out of Deceive (GB) (dam's sire Machiavellian (USA), dam's grandsire Mr Prospector (USA)). He's all of those things and completely unflappable; he's just never left the ground yet as far as I know so wondered if they had form!


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## toomanyhorses26 (2 January 2012)

I have a mare with Luso as her grand sire - any quirks known here ? as she can be ridiculous when ridden in certain situations


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## Scarlett (2 January 2012)

charlimouse said:



			Does anybody have experiance of Erhaab (TB) progeny?
		
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Yes, I got one at just turning 4, he was anxious, arrogant, nappy and generally difficult, but could be a lovely horse to ride as he was nimble and has a lovely pop in him. Very, very smart but not affectionate in the slightest. He needs very clear boundaries to keep him happy. When he's good though he is very, very good, just don't ask him to do anything outside his comfort zone! I wasn't experienced enough when I got him and we never got our act together, he taught my bf to ride though and is now owned by my friend who loves his quirks and is building up a fantastic relationship with him. He's 10 now and mellowed out a lot.

I know a mare who is at the same trainers my boy came from who is exactly the same, she's a decent hurdler but tricky. They manage her well however and she performs well in return.

I knew of a couple more in training who both have the same tricky but talented reputation. I'd have another as I think the right one could be a super horse, they would probably excel in a competative home. The ones I knew off have all be pretty tough too.


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## Firewell (2 January 2012)

Eeeek jesstinsel! Luckily mine isn't like that! He can have the odd moment but luckily remembers his head in time to keep us both safe!

Does anyone have any by bobs return? My late mare was by him and by golly she could be a stressy pain in the arse!! She was genuine and safe though, just very highly strung. She had a 
cracking jump on her though. She was by bobs return who was by bob back. She had grey sovereign on her mother side (which is where she got her grey coat from).


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## sj_mad (3 January 2012)

My 4yr old catherston dance in the dark is a right character, known as cheeky charlie, he is such an immature so and so, his favourite game is sniffing you all over very curiosly then nipping you with his lips, he is very talented tho

I also have an 11yr old mare by Ricardo Z lovely affectionate mare on the ground, nutcase to ride, dont ever tell her off whilst riding I dont dare! nasty in the field with all horses even if she loves them, she hates being petted or scratched while im on her, will scowl at me and kick out, but what a fantastic jumping mare, loves her job, doesnt like you telling her what to do.


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## rotters13 (3 January 2012)

Any experiences of Captain Clover horses? Or even Landos sired horses?


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## YasandCrystal (3 January 2012)

kerilli said:



			going back a bit, but did anyone else have any experience with any Skyboys? Mine was a dream to a fence but probably the MOST opinionated horse I've ever dealt with. I think she spent 10 years carefully training me on the flat, rather than vice-versa...

QUOTE]

My mare has Skyboy as her grandsire and yours is such an apt description Kerilli - she is opinionated in the nicest possible way. She would shirk work anytime sadly, but she is honest when pushed and asked and loves jumping. She is also very sensitive which seems contradictory to her opinionated streak!

Anyone have an Sandro Hit experience? My boy is very intelligent, a quick learner and confident (a  little disrespectful at times). As he had an injury and a very bad start it is hard to tell if his earlier aggression was his breeding or the immense pain he was in or a combo!
		
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## Saratoga (3 January 2012)

Saint_Nic_01 said:



			DiMaggio sharp, stressy, no sense of self preservation. Hugely intelligent and with a spectacular 60-0mph 180° spin manoeuvre. I regularly find myself facing the wrong way with no idea how I got there!
		
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Would agree with that!! 

Every Jazz baby I have known has been ginger, super sharp and with a tendency to stand on their back legs A LOT. But exceptionally talented. LOVE them, and would definitely have another.

I have a 4 yr old by Master Imp, and he's the most confident cocky baby I have come across!! Very intelligent, gets bored very easily, and when he came he was VERY naughty. But never has to learn anything twice, and a huge character!


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## ihatework (3 January 2012)

What an interesting thread to come back to work on 

I haven't known enough of the same stallion offspring to really be able to generalise.

The one that springs to mind for me is Jumbo - the ones I have known by him have generally been backwards thinking, not overly genuine and 2 were sods to break and continued having issues about being mounted for a long time. 

I have a Dutch Gold sat in the field that goes against general opinion. He was the best thing to ever happen to me, the most intelligent cheeky horse I have ever owned but talented and ultra genuine. Certainly not a novices horse though! Unfortunately he was a nightmare to keep sound, always the way with the good ones


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## ihatework (3 January 2012)

While on the topic, anyone have any Ramexico offspring? What are they like?


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## TheMule (3 January 2012)

ihatework said:



			While on the topic, anyone have any Ramexico offspring? What are they like?
		
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I know one- big gangly thing and not particularly bright. Has scope but no actual ability to use it constructively, too busy being dumb around the corners. I don't like it!!


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## seabsicuit2 (3 January 2012)

Ramexico -have one at work,The general consensus is that people just rave about their talent and ability- Anna Ross Davies says she really rates his progeny and says he's about the most underated stallion there is in the UK- they seem to have both enough movement and jump to satisfy both the pro dressage and showjumping people. 
BUT they are complete thugs- very rude and very difficult, very tricky in the mouth and canter can be big and unbalanced but when you work around that, its a mega horse.


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## PoppyAnderson (3 January 2012)

ihatework said:



			I have a Dutch Gold sat in the field that goes against general opinion. He was the best thing to ever happen to me, the most intelligent cheeky horse I have ever owned but talented and ultra genuine. Certainly not a novices horse though! Unfortunately he was a nightmare to keep sound, always the way with the good ones 

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No, your description is about the same as the other comments on Catherston horses.


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## seabsicuit2 (3 January 2012)

TheMule said:



			I know one- big gangly thing and not particularly bright. Has scope but no actual ability to use it constructively, too busy being dumb around the corners. I don't like it!!
		
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This one looked so ugly when it arrived, now it has muscle and topline she looks stunning


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## vam (3 January 2012)

Does anyone have any experience of Quantum or Quidam De Revel lines? I've been looking into my boys lines and I can't find much on his sire Quantum but would be instrested to know if his grandsire has passed anything onto him. 
Need to have a closer look at his Dams lines as well at some point


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## Jesstickle (3 January 2012)

festivefirewell said:



			Eeeek jesstinsel! Luckily mine isn't like that! He can have the odd moment but luckily remembers his head in time to keep us both safe!
		
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In fairness he'd have only been a three year old. When I say work I mean a flat racing yard so they were all very young! I'm sure by now he is much more measured in his approach to life. He was ever so pretty love him. Dark bay with a really neat little star and tiny ears


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## Firewell (3 January 2012)

Jesstinsel J also has tiny ears! He has a face that melts hearts with a perfect lightening shaped white blaze. He certainly knows how to use his pretty boy good looks to his advantage, he is a total attention seeker lol.


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## NR99 (3 January 2012)

Piggy is by Welcome Flagmount - King of Diamond lines, he was a Grade A SJ who sadly was killed as a youngster.  I'm told he was tied to a wall which collapsed and he stood over his groom who was under him with the weight of the wall on him, until she could be pulled free and then he collapsed and died.  I've also been told he was a lovely fella and very easy to handle but not heard of any ridden traits. 

Pig has a lovely nature on the ground, though she can be a bit of a fire cracker when ridden and up to full fitness. Not nasty just keen.

Anyone know anything about Welcome Flagmount?


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## Mynstrel (3 January 2012)

This is a fascinating thread, I'm going to have to join in...

does anybody know anything about Narcos or Polydor lines for our warmblood or Darcy Dancer (don't know how famous he is but seems to have bred plenty) for our irish girl?


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## Kiribati_uk (3 January 2012)

NR99 said:



			Piggy is by Welcome Flagmount - King of Diamond lines, he was a Grade A SJ who sadly was killed as a youngster.  I'm told he was tied to a wall which collapsed and he stood over his groom who was under him with the weight of the wall on him, until she could be pulled free and then he collapsed and died.  I've also been told he was a lovely fella and very easy to handle but not heard of any ridden traits. 

Pig has a lovely nature on the ground, though she can be a bit of a fire cracker when ridden and up to full fitness. Not nasty just keen.

Anyone know anything about Welcome Flagmount?
		
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If you search google comes up with thread about him, he was lovely horse and has some stunning progeny.


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## KatB (3 January 2012)

I'm another with a Cloverhill line mare (Clover Clon VII is her sire) , who is an absolute darling. She is typical Clover hill stamp, bright bay with a long back, massive jumpers bump and big ears! She looks very similar to others by the same stallion I have come across, so think he stamps his progeny well! She is sharp, but very very trainable. Her damnline was mainly TB I believe, and her sire ISH.


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## foxy1 (3 January 2012)

See I once had a pig of a horse by Clover Hill, could jump the moon (once jumped the school fence having jibbed sideways to avoid jumping down a grid), unknown Damline though so maybe his Mum was difficult?!

I'm not a fan of Irish horses in general though, find them awkward backward thinking creatures. I wouldn't give you tuppence for a Connemara although lots of people rave about them, nappy little so-and-so's


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## AdorableAlice (3 January 2012)

What a fabulous thread, so interesting.  Irish Draught for me, had Embla George horse, massive 18hh purebred boy who never ever put a foot wrong from 6 months old to tragic loss aged just 13.  Have a Avanti Amorous Archie now to follow in the above's footsteps I hope.

Friend thinking of using Shining Spirit (TB) any thoughts or experience of him ?


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## kerilli (3 January 2012)

YasandCrystal said:



			My mare has Skyboy as her grandsire and yours is such an apt description Kerilli - she is opinionated in the nicest possible way. She would shirk work anytime sadly, but she is honest when pushed and asked and loves jumping. She is also very sensitive which seems contradictory to her opinionated streak!
		
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Ha, exactly. Mine wasn't a shirker but she'd work exactly as SHE wanted to. The only horse i've ever had boot me hard on the instep because she didn't like exactly where i'd put my leg when requesting rein-back! A top rider used to train me and he rode her a few times, she was utterly frustrating for him too, and one day he decided 'today's the day she's going to do it OUR way' and proceeded to ride her correctly and determinedly (not harshly at all, just 'this is how it is') without letting up, and she tied up completely, the only time she ever did so. Jumping was, ahem, interesting too, because she could jump a house but she did NOT like a deep spot and would do a vile stop if I got one, I ended up over her head in the practice jump at Int level a few times! She did love a flier though and could really take a joke about those fortunately!

Re: Originally Posted by Saint_Nic_01 
"DiMaggio sharp, stressy, no sense of self preservation. Hugely intelligent and with a spectacular 60-0mph 180° spin manoeuvre. I regularly find myself facing the wrong way with no idea how I got there!"

That sounds exactly like the one I had. She dived headfirst into a Fen dyke with me once, survived, then would threaten to do it again as part of her napping, crabbing along the edge and refusing to turn, the witch. She dropped me once and I have no idea which door I even came out of, suddenly I was standing on the ground with the reins still in my hand, looking round for her!

Re: Jumbo's: Lalalala i'm not listening, I'm praying mine's going to be the saintly forward-thinking boring easy version!


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## Amaranta (3 January 2012)

tristar said:



			i had a ramiro colt i was going to keep as a stallion, but rejected him at 3 years because he was so nervous, very talented horse, but not what i wanted in my breeding.

the next colt was by the andalusian, Granero, out of an anglo-arab mare, god i love this stallion, so brave and trainable and utterly faithfull, all the energy and paces yet quiet enough to hack on a long rein, goes past anything, i think he has inherited Granero's attitude to work, he loves to be ridden, such a difference to a lot of warmblood  horses i know, i often wish i could share him with others, just so they can experience the joy it brings.
		
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Totally agree, I have a Granero mare and I wish I could bottle her attitude


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## YasandCrystal (3 January 2012)

kerilli said:



			Ha, exactly. Mine wasn't a shirker but she'd work exactly as SHE wanted to. The only horse i've ever had boot me hard on the instep because she didn't like exactly where i'd put my leg when requesting rein-back! A top rider used to train me and he rode her a few times, she was utterly frustrating for him too, and one day he decided 'today's the day she's going to do it OUR way' and proceeded to ride her correctly and determinedly (not harshly at all, just 'this is how it is') without letting up, and she tied up completely, the only time she ever did so. Jumping was, ahem, interesting too, because she could jump a house but she did NOT like a deep spot and would do a vile stop if I got one, I ended up over her head in the practice jump at Int level a few times! She did love a flier though and could really take a joke about those fortunately!
		
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My mare tells me when she thinks she has had a long enough schooling session - very cheeky! and she takes a flier all the time and had another poor friend off after she landed heavily in the saddle taken unawares by this flier!  It's interesting that the 'Cruising' bloodline people are saying similar things and goes to show just how far back genetics can influence, as Skyboy is back there in the breeding too.


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## oldvic (3 January 2012)

kerilli said:



			Re: Jumbo's: Lalalala i'm not listening, I'm praying mine's going to be the saintly forward-thinking boring easy version!
		
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I'm sure she will be fine. I have worked with 4 and they are all very trainable. Yes, they can be lazy but they are good to ride and work with.


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## kerilli (3 January 2012)

oldvic said:



			I'm sure she will be fine. I have worked with 4 and they are all very trainable. Yes, they can be lazy but they are good to ride and work with.
		
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Thankyou, I hope so. I automatically take on board that it has oodles to do with the calibre of the person on top, of course!


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## oldvic (3 January 2012)

toomanyhorses26 said:



			I have a mare with Luso as her grand sire - any quirks known here ? as she can be ridiculous when ridden in certain situations
		
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The Lusos that I have worked with have been quite thick with a rather silly streak and quite heavy headed. (A bit wooden mentally and physically!!!).


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## black_horse (3 January 2012)

does anyone know of any quirks with donnerhall/donnerschwee/sao paulo mares?


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## ecrozier (3 January 2012)

Really interesting thread. Ref Welcome Flagmount, oh's mare was by Flagmount King, so similar breeding. She was a big lass, but had a great jump for her size and was very bold, bit quirky at times, and a bit of a one person horse - didn't like me much, loved my oh!

Interestingly Roo seems to take after both sides of his breeding according to people who know his breeding! He's def got a 'clover hill' look to him, he's out of a mare by Captain Clover and certainly has similarities with two other Captain Clover 5/6 year olds I know! He's typically bay with white star, fairly large ears and a very active back end over a fence!!
His other side is kwpn. His sire was gelded at 4 but grandsire more prolific, his name was Royal Geneve. Standout names that side are Silvio, Sandro and Ahorn, and on his sire's dam's side, Nimmerdor, Purioso and Jurius. 
Be lovely to hear if anyone has any info on any of those! Still hope to trace roo's dad at some point, Vinnie Jones MF.


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## NR99 (3 January 2012)

ecrozier said:



			Really interesting thread. Ref Welcome Flagmount, oh's mare was by Flagmount King, so similar breeding. She was a big lass, but had a great jump for her size and was very bold, bit quirky at times, and a bit of a one person horse - didn't like me much, loved my oh!

Interestingly Roo seems to take after both sides of his breeding according to people who know his breeding! He's def got a 'clover hill' look to him, he's out of a mare by Captain Clover and certainly has similarities with two other Captain Clover 5/6 year olds I know! He's typically bay with white star, fairly large ears and a very active back end over a fence!!
His other side is kwpn. His sire was gelded at 4 but grandsire more prolific, his name was Royal Geneve. Standout names that side are Silvio, Sandro and Ahorn, and on his sire's dam's side, Nimmerdor, Purioso and Jurius. 
Be lovely to hear if anyone has any info on any of those! Still hope to trace roo's dad at some point, Vinnie Jones MF.
		
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Sounds a lot like Pig, Deffo thinks she is just Rhia's horse


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## ecrozier (3 January 2012)

Millie did NOT appreciate my attentions! Never aggressive or anything, just completely dismissive of me. Another forum user owns her now, and they seem to have bonded really well, def a choosy mare


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## dieseldog (3 January 2012)

ecrozier said:



			Interestingly Roo seems to take after both sides of his breeding according to people who know his breeding! He's def got a 'clover hill' look to him, he's out of a mare by Captain Clover and certainly has similarities with two other Captain Clover 5/6 year olds I know! He's typically bay with white star, fairly large ears and a very active back end over a fence!!
His other side is kwpn. His sire was gelded at 4 but grandsire more prolific, his name was Royal Geneve. Standout names that side are Silvio, Sandro and Ahorn, and on his sire's dam's side, Nimmerdor, Purioso and Jurius. 
Be lovely to hear if anyone has any info on any of those! Still hope to trace roo's dad at some point, Vinnie Jones MF.
		
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http://www.morayfirthstud.co.uk/#/vinnie-jones-mf/4514708919

Vinnie's breeder  used to be a Forum Member on here.

Royal Geneve was stunning.


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## stolensilver (3 January 2012)

Many posts ago someone asked about the Trakehner Va Tout. I had the misfortune to own a Va Tout daughter. She was 16hh, pretty, superb paces, enormous jump, the only horse I've ever taken over a 5'6" hedge and had a foot to spare when she wasn't even trying. She had a 7' jump in her and probably more. 

She was also crazy. So stressy in the stable she almost kicked her way through a breezeblock wall. So stressy in the field she ran the fence from the second she went out to when she came in. One summer we decided to tough it out and leave her in the 70 acre field with 7 other horses for company till she calmed down. 4 days later she was still running the fence...

I had help from a guy who had evented to European level. She jumped a parked car with him out on a hack one day because he'd asked her to stand still at a junction and she didn't see why she should. She took me over several dry stone walls at the side of the road with no rhyme or reason and most worryingly, no warning. She tried to double barrel cars as they went past you. She did that with no warning either. 

I later learned that with her previous owner (I bought her age 5) she regularly reared over backwards. She didn't do that with me but she was ridden every single day and treated very carefully. Asking around my Va Tout was not unusual. A small % of his offspring are super. Most are nutcases. 

That mare almost put me off Trakehners for life. Fortunately I kept an open mind and bought a purebred Trakehner filly 3 years ago. She is by Le Rouge and is the sweetest, kindest athlete you could ever wish to meet. She's schooling half pass and flying changes as 5yo and hopefully will be doing the International 6yo dressage classes next year. She's ridden by an amateur and only gets ridden 3 times a week. I think her lovely trainability comes mostly from her damline which is the Trakehner K line. Le Rouge himself is rather hot and so are the young stallions I've seen by him. They weren't like my mare at all. I wish I could clone her and give her to all my friends. LOL!


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## ecrozier (3 January 2012)

Thanks DD, that's how I traced his breeding actually and Caroline helped me get his DNA test done and proper SSH passport! But she lost touch with bunnies too when he came down south, know he was at a yard in Kent, but beyond that lost track of him!


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## measles (3 January 2012)

I'll join in. Anyone any experience of Parco offspring?


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## shark1 (4 January 2012)

someone mentioned Indoctro and Concorde...I worked with a Concorde son who was a stallion, he was a complete saint. And another gelding, very very easy and sweet natured. 

Indoctro babies, not for the faint hearted IME...very sharp in a bit of mental way but excellent otherwise


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## Seahorse (4 January 2012)

Mildred said:



			All the Catherston horses Ive known have suffered from terrible sweetitch. I have only ever known a couple of Fleetwater Opposition babies but have heard they can be tricky, and this would definitely be the case for those two - talented but certainly not easy!
		
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funny you should say that, the Catherston horse that belonged to my friend had terrible sweet itch too!


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## TGM (4 January 2012)

Have got to disagree about the Carnaval Drum offspring!  Our boy is by Carnaval Drum and he has the sweetest temperament and just loves to please!  Sensible enough to be hunted for the first time by a 14 year old girl.  He is one of the most intelligent horses I have met and learns very quickly.  He has, however, had a good upbringing and I would suspect that he could have learnt some bad tricks just as quickly if in the wrong hands!

A friend has another Carnaval Drum gelding and they are very similar, although hers had a more chequered history and needed a bit of straightening out at first!

Also met two more CD offspring at a local hunter trial, and their owner raved about them too.  One was a mare who has evented to quite a high level but was still safe enough for a young teenager to learn on.

As for Clover Hill, we have a Clover Hill grandson on loan, and he is adorable - a really kind, sweet chap who has his heart in the right place, but perhaps not as intellectually gifted as our other boy!

Once hacked out with someone on a Jumbo gelding and that napped like stink but was apparently a great jumper!


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## Escada2004 (4 January 2012)

4faults said:



			Haha I have to agree with the Ramiro Z as I am currently on my third mare of his lines. 

My Broadstone Landmark boy is kind with an amazing personality, very cheeky and loveable.

Does anyone have experience with Concorde babies?
		
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I have a young mare with Ramiro Z lines, very sharp and qwerky but lots of scope


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## Elfen (4 January 2012)

stolensilver said:



			Many posts ago someone asked about the Trakehner Va Tout. I had the misfortune to own a Va Tout daughter. She was 16hh, pretty, superb paces, enormous jump, the only horse I've ever taken over a 5'6" hedge and had a foot to spare when she wasn't even trying. She had a 7' jump in her and probably more. 

She was also crazy. So stressy in the stable she almost kicked her way through a breezeblock wall. So stressy in the field she ran the fence from the second she went out to when she came in. One summer we decided to tough it out and leave her in the 70 acre field with 7 other horses for company till she calmed down. 4 days later she was still running the fence...

I had help from a guy who had evented to European level. She jumped a parked car with him out on a hack one day because he'd asked her to stand still at a junction and she didn't see why she should. She took me over several dry stone walls at the side of the road with no rhyme or reason and most worryingly, no warning. She tried to double barrel cars as they went past you. She did that with no warning either. 

I later learned that with her previous owner (I bought her age 5) she regularly reared over backwards. She didn't do that with me but she was ridden every single day and treated very carefully. Asking around my Va Tout was not unusual. A small % of his offspring are super. Most are nutcases. 

That mare almost put me off Trakehners for life. Fortunately I kept an open mind and bought a purebred Trakehner filly 3 years ago. She is by Le Rouge and is the sweetest, kindest athlete you could ever wish to meet. She's schooling half pass and flying changes as 5yo and hopefully will be doing the International 6yo dressage classes next year. She's ridden by an amateur and only gets ridden 3 times a week. I think her lovely trainability comes mostly from her damline which is the Trakehner K line. Le Rouge himself is rather hot and so are the young stallions I've seen by him. They weren't like my mare at all. I wish I could clone her and give her to all my friends. LOL!
		
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Not sure if you saw my post earlier - I have a vatout son - v stressy but excellent at his job, and a vatout grandson who is unbelievably calm - his dad (elfenstein by hohenstein) was given a 10 for temperament and I'm fairly certain he's inherited dads brain and mums body - he's 17.1 at rising three!


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## ecrozier (4 January 2012)

TGM that sums up my Clover Hill gelding perfectly! I think the male offspring differ quite a bit from the female


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## kirstyhen (4 January 2012)

ecrozier said:



			TGM that sums up my Clover Hill gelding perfectly! I think the male offspring differ quite a bit from the female 

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I ride one of each (Mally and a gelding called Archie) and they are vastly different! Mally is a compact little mare who is prone to getting tense and rubber ball-ish, Archie is a 17.2h giraffe who lollops around the school in his own laid back world! Although Mally adores working and wouldn't dream of being (too ) naughty, Archie likes to try and bust a few moves every now and again to test us!
However, they both have the same easy ride-ability into a fence and are as honest as the day is long. First time Archie ever saw a placing pole and a grid, he used the placing pole as a ground line then continued down the grid as if nothing had happened!

If I had to describe them - Mally is a typical girl, bit temperamental, you have to ask right and telling her off just sends her hysterical, whereas Archie is a bit more of a laid-back thug, needs chasing up and made to tow the line. But I love riding them both!


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## monkeybum13 (4 January 2012)

oldvic said:



			The Lusos that I have worked with have been quite thick with a rather silly streak and quite heavy headed. (A bit wooden mentally and physically!!!).
		
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The Luso I know is small, backwards thinking, has every vice going but it very cuddly and sweet.

Echo the silly streak too!


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## Super_Kat (4 January 2012)

MBSJ said:



			Anyone had any experiences of Indoctro horses?
		
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Yes, would have another in a heartbeat! He was a shite on the ground at times (displayed riggy behaviour so I always had to keep an eye on him) but every time I take a good look at the photo's of him on my wall I cry buckets.
When I went to try him, DieselDog will vouch for this as I got him off her, I was too scared to jump (and I mean terrified) and after 45 minutes I was jumping a little course of about 2ft, for 3 years after he looked after me and gave me such confidence. The day I said goodbye and walked away from him for the last time destroyed me. 
I've heard alot of Indoctro's are similar (although I've only met 1 other, he was much the same as mine), athletic, awesome work ethic, intelligent, just a super super horse.


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## ecrozier (4 January 2012)

Kirstyhen - exactly what you say in last paragraph! Roo is laid back, not spooky at all, and did a very similar thing with placing poles to start with, also one stride doubles were actually bounced. Always. 
Roo has a fab work ethic although my flatwork trainer reckons that comes from his Nimmerdor lines, he's def not temperamental and is yet to crack under (albeit limited amounts of) pressure.
Two friends claim to have had CH mares that were horrors but id say every chance they maybe hadn't had greatest start in life and maybe but of a personality clash - you and Kat do a great job with both your CH girls who I'm sure would be very different in different hands!


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## TGM (4 January 2012)

kirstyhen said:



			Archie is a 17.2h giraffe who lollops around the school in his own laid back world! ... However, they both have the same easy ride-ability into a fence and are as honest as the day is long.
		
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  That sounds so like Alfie!  (Although he is rarely deliberately naughty and he is only 17.1hh).


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## KatB (4 January 2012)

Haha! Thanks ecrozier... the person  brought her from said something very similar, so as a result she was VERY choosey about who she sold to, as she knew she was very sharp and clever! If she had gone to someone who was slighty less laid back about life, one of them would have been a wreck very quickly!! Luckily, I've had some very good people on hand to help me 

She is also incredibly trainable, so as long as you're subtle and consistent with her, so not to cause hysterics, she will try so so hard for you. Both my flatwork trainer and various jumping people who have met her love her trainability and outlook, as long as they see past the occasional athletic display of exhuberance (!).  

I've also come across a couple of CH geldings who are similar to madam, one is incredibly talented but sharp, and is in the right hands luckily. The other is the same, but not in the right hands unfortunately, and as a result faces an uncertain future


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## quizzie (4 January 2012)

Well, I have one with High Roller (Cavalier) sire, out of a RamiroZ mare....either the best or the worst of two strong willed lines!!. He is a lovely horse on the ground & very talented....but not always particularly easy....has a lot of his own very powerful ideas!  But I think ,if I can continue to gain his trust, he might be the best I have ridden.

   My other horse is by Master Imp.....as someone on HHO once said..."don't pick a fight with a Master Imp..they will fight you back till hell freezes over!"

   Mind you....the fact that I bought both of them after riding homebreds for some years, may say more about MY insanity (hereditary???) than anything else......Maybe we should have a thread about human inherited traits.....or maybe not!


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## kirstyhen (4 January 2012)

ecrozier said:



			Kirstyhen - exactly what you say in last paragraph! Roo is laid back, not spooky at all, and did a very similar thing with placing poles to start with, also one stride doubles were actually bounced. Always. 
Roo has a fab work ethic although my flatwork trainer reckons that comes from his Nimmerdor lines, he's def not temperamental and is yet to crack under (albeit limited amounts of) pressure.
Two friends claim to have had CH mares that were horrors but id say every chance they maybe hadn't had greatest start in life and maybe but of a personality clash - you and Kat do a great job with both your CH girls who I'm sure would be very different in different hands!
		
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I think Mal and I are a perfect fit temperament wise, she doesn't cope well with being told off, it tends to send her hysterical. So when she's being a mardy women, I just tend to work around her and ignore the teeth and legs coming in my direction. Whereas people who have changed her rugs or my farrier tend to tell her off and unless you get the exact right time she ends up cantering around her stable or snapping leadropes!
IMO she is a perfect horse and I wouldn't say a bad word against her, but I know other people would disagree! 
Riding wise, JP said she was very cute and constantly changing her approach to get out of what he was asking and other (limited) people who have ridden her have said she isn't easy.
But I would never ever describe her as difficult or a horror, she is far too wonderful for that


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## ecrozier (4 January 2012)

That's a shame Kat, about the one that hasnt found the right human  
We have three clover hill geldings at our yard, two of which are captain clover. I'd say so far (one not yet backed!) all are of similar laid back temperaments like roo, they've all got their quirks but what horse hasn't?! Funnily enough one of the others is quite snappy on the ground as you describe Mal, Kirstyhen, but as you say all is forgiven when you ride him and he's a fab jumper. 
Having said all that, my instructor was saying the other day that in her opinion you need three attributes to have a young horse as be successful - ability (or access to people who do have that ability ie good trainers), consistency (which in theory anyone can do) and most importantly your own temperament. That last one is the only one she says can't be taught. It came up in relation to a particular acquaintance who is struggling with a young horse - but she loses her temper all the time and the horse gets confused... Then stressed....then stroppy. I think even roo would get wound up! 
I guess it's the nature vs nurture angle again!


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## Sults (4 January 2012)

Anyone have any with Ben Faire bloodlines or welton louis?


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## kirstyhen (4 January 2012)

Mal has always been a fanny about tack and rugs, she is also a witch for the farrier when tightening clenches, and putting hoof oil on is taking your life in your own hands!

The hoof situation is solved by parking her up with a Horslyx, then she is as good as gold, they used her on the website as it really makes a HUGE difference to her!

She rarely actually bites or kicks, unless you don't know her and put yourself in the way, which is why I think igoring it is the best course of action! 

She would definitely be a highly strung, stressy horse in the wrong hands, but I'm so used to my laid back heffalump, that I've always treated her like I would him. When it counts she is as easy as pie to handle, so I'm happy!


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## spottybotty (4 January 2012)

shark1 said:



			someone mentioned Indoctro and Concorde...I worked with a Concorde son who was a stallion, he was a complete saint. And another gelding, very very easy and sweet natured. 

Indoctro babies, not for the faint hearted IME...very sharp in a bit of mental way but excellent otherwise
		
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I have a Concorde gelding, he is just under 18hh and a dope on a rope to handle, very affectionate, but is very intelligent. Learns quickly but anticipates! and is a bit sensative in the mouth. If HE thinks he has done enough schooling then YOU stop or he throws almighty strops lol. I have to  very careful what I feed him as most things send him bonkers, I do think his Quirks are more to do with his early training and not down to him per say.


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## woodtiger (4 January 2012)

What a good thread!

I have a Sheraton gelding (by Indoctro).  He is sharp and thrives on work.  More than two days off in a row and he is a headcase, having said that he is so genuine and has a super back end, and once on side, there's no stopping us.  He turns into a miserable git if I don't work him hard every day.

My Elmshorn horse was a saint.  Classical shape over a jump, and would try his heart out over all but the flimsiest of uprights, which he would boot out.  He was such a lovely natured horse that he was almost boring - you wanted him to do something a bit naughty!

The best horse I have ever had was Larino x Casimir (Larino is by Concorde).  He was a genius, but way too good for an amateur.  Larino offspring have distinctive wide-apart back end over a jump, like a kangaroo, but they aren't all that common as apparently he had a low sperm count or something.  They also have a lot of white on them or are grey.  My horse was bay roan with a white face and four stockings.  He was such a clever horse.

The Carnaval Drum horses I have had have always been very loose in their front legs, not bending tightly enough at the knee.  With Drummy, it very much depends upon the mare as to whether they are any good.

Padinus (Heartbreaker) are super talented but difficult to get to concentrate, and like to do things their way.  You need to adapt to their way of going, they don't like to be drilled into your way.

All the Tangelo van de Zuuthoeve horses I've known have been lovely:  super genuine, talented, easy and kind.  I'd go for another of these any day!

Don't know anything about Parco, other than he will be standing in the UK from this year.


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## Auslander (4 January 2012)

Sults said:



			Anyone have any with Ben Faire bloodlines or welton louis?
		
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Dont have any, but I looked after the event mare Faerie Diadem when I was at WFPs, and she was lovely. Very laid back, easy to ride, and a nice person in the stable. We only hacked and galloped them so have no insight into her trainability, but she certainly wasn't naughty, and just got on with the job in hand. A tad idle, I seem to remember - one of the few we had to kick on the gallops!! Highly in demand when we were hungover.... I have vivid memories of one of the other girls having to stop her several times to throw up when William decided that everything needed galloping the day after the Young Farmers Summer Ball!!

 Her more famous brother (Faerie Sovereign) was there too at that time, and was also very laid back and easy. Seem to remember him being a bit of a facepuller, but he had totally earned the right to be a grouchy old man by then!

Welton Louis was at Talland, and we used to fight over him! Lovely lovely horse to ride - he was a complete dressage machine!! He was getting a bit old and stiff, so didn't jump much, if at all. He was the first horse I rode advanced movements on, so is probably responsible for me going all dressagey after many years of being an eventing nut.


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## YasandCrystal (4 January 2012)

I have a friend with a mare grandsire is Tinkas Boy - she is interested of others of this breeding character traits please?


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## Tinks81 (4 January 2012)

Countrychic said:



			Balou du rouet.   Talented and polite
		
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very true and they all jump (well all the ones i know do) and they all move nicely too !!


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## Sarah1 (4 January 2012)

TPO said:



			Someone asked about Accondy about 40 posts ago.... 

I've only owned one gelding and NEVER again! He was vicious, dangerous to handle and be in the stable with (so much so vets refused to treat him) and would throw the most almighty tantrums ridden that it was only slightly safer to cling on as if you'd come off I have the feeling he'd have come back to trample over you! He was incredibly clever and would think of a new evasion in the blink of an eye. He was really nappy, would go backwards, up and when none of that worked he took to throwing himself on the ground (ditto when attempting to load).

In his defence he came to me in poor condition and needed a lot of work, It took a year to turn him into a well mannered horse that gave you a nice ride. I've no idea what clicked for him to turn around his behaviour but he turned out as a nice all rounder. He was also a cribber.

I wondered if it was just me so done some digging and the general opinion seemed to be that although Accondy himself was a nice horse his offspring were very tricky with a tendency to be, ahem, "sharp" and untrustworthy. Handle with kid gloves seemed to be the motto of the day

Has anyone any experience with Cape Cross offspring?
		
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I know an Accondy mare like this - absolutely exactly like your description of your gelding but she was homebred and spolied rotten which I always thought accounted for some of her behaviour but I have heard that all Accondy's offspring have these traits...
ETS - I knew the mares Dam and she was the sweetest, most gentle, loveable horse ever so the mare definately got it from her Sire!


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## Tinks81 (4 January 2012)

ecrozier said:



			Thanks DD, that's how I traced his breeding actually and Caroline helped me get his DNA test done and proper SSH passport! But she lost touch with bunnies too when he came down south, know he was at a yard in Kent, but beyond that lost track of him!
		
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im sure Vinnie Jones was bought from caroline by Charlotte Foreman - http://www.summerlees.com/

she is near canterbury - contact her she is really nice xx


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## Tinks81 (4 January 2012)

woodtiger said:



			What a good thread!

My Elmshorn horse was a saint.  Classical shape over a jump, and would try his heart out over all but the flimsiest of uprights, which he would boot out.  He was such a lovely natured horse that he was almost boring - you wanted him to do something a bit naughty!

.
		
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OMG really ?????????? The one i owned was extremely sharp but was soooooo careful and turned out a superstar!! i know 2 others who are both like my boy was and never heard of them being saints !!!! x


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## almostthere (4 January 2012)

Brilliant thread!
Like others have said...all horses can be different but some stallions do seem to have stronger genetic (ahem) quirks than others. It was only after (doh!) I bought a horse by Animo that I realised the majority verdict on his  offspring was "only for pros". Mine is gorgeous on ground and mega mega talented but should never have been sold to me as a mere amateur (and I was very honest about my (limited) capabilities....)!
I then met someone who had looked after the great stallion himself once in Holland when he was in the yard she worked on. Animo had remained in his tack once in his stable for 3 days, according to her, cos no-one could get safely near enough to him to get it off..... lovely....


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## Escada2004 (4 January 2012)

almostthere said:



			Brilliant thread!
Like others have said...all horses can be different but some stallions do seem to have stronger genetic (ahem) quirks than others. It was only after (doh!) I bought a horse by Animo that I realised the majority verdict on his  offspring was "only for pros". Mine is gorgeous on ground and mega mega talented but should never have been sold to me as a mere amateur (and I was very honest about my (limited) capabilities....)!
I then met someone who had looked after the great stallion himself once in Holland when he was in the yard she worked on. Animo had remained in his tack once in his stable for 3 days, according to her, cos no-one could get safely near enough to him to get it off..... lovely....
		
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Hi have a friend with an Animo mare and she is fab although very very sharp! I put one of my jumping mares to him many years ago as i loved him so much unfortunately she absorbed


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## Escada2004 (4 January 2012)

measles said:



			I'll join in. Anyone any experience of Parco offspring?
		
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Hi Measls, a friend of mine has a lovely mare by Parco, very easy, calm and great on the ground and when being ridden 

I used to ride a Darco mare who was amazing, the easiest horse i have ever handled with an amazing amout of ability! She was out of a Major De La Cour mare, so might have been the good mix 

I have a Toulon mare, she is fab but a bit clingy, lots of ability but loses concentration easily, cant say much bad about her though 

And then there is Lily the newest of the bunch, she is by Cicero Z Van Paemel, small sharp, qwerky with attitude but fantastic jumping ability if you can stay on! After me hitting the deck 3 times at her first show, i got a saddle with big blocks and some sporty haft spray, stick to her like glue now! She does make my trainer Geoff Glazzard giggle in our lessons when she jumps something 3 foot higher than needed, twists in the air, lands and puts her head between her legs and shoots to the side, but all part of producing a talented youngster!


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## ecrozier (4 January 2012)

Thanks Tinks81, he was indeed and Charlotte had my boy's mum too, and also his half beother's mum I believe  She sold him about 4 or 5 years ago and I'm not sure what happened after that - when BS records are actually free I might try and trace him through that!


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## Escada2004 (4 January 2012)

ecrozier said:



			Thanks Tinks81, he was indeed and Charlotte had my boy's mum too, and also his half beother's mum I believe  She sold him about 4 or 5 years ago and I'm not sure what happened after that - when BS records are actually free I might try and trace him through that!
		
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BS records are free now, just been on there looking at some


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## lillith (4 January 2012)

Not famous in any way but at the college I went to they had 2 fell stallions, if you made a smacking/chiruping noise (like donkey in shrek on the journey) one (Nim) would twitch and the other (Tony) didn't react. You could tell which short, hairy, black babies where whose because all the Nim babies twitched if you chiruped and the Tony ones didn't.

I worked with some Creevagh Camiro babies and all the ones I met gave you the same slightly haughty down-the-nose look even as foals and all the Creevagh Ferro babies had the same kind of flirty, eyelashy way of looking at you. When I met the stallions I recognised each of them straight off because they had the same 'expressions' that their babies gave.


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## Tinks81 (4 January 2012)

ecrozier said:



			Thanks Tinks81, he was indeed and Charlotte had my boy's mum too, and also his half beother's mum I believe  She sold him about 4 or 5 years ago and I'm not sure what happened after that - when BS records are actually free I might try and trace him through that!
		
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just call them and ask them thats free x

wow they are actually free !!!


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## Lark (4 January 2012)

Fabulous Thread
Euphemisms - they were typically the worst and would send you running for the hills.
Cavaliers - I have known a lot and to be honest they were all quite different. One I know is in a riding school!
Lux Z's - like Cavalier a mix. Some right nutters but he has covered a huge amount of mares
Olympic Lux - The one I know was lovely and jumped like hell plus had exceptional movement.
Concordes - 2 I have known are careful as hell.
Calvados - Big and brave jumping but would walk straight through you. Very difficult to put manners on them.
Cruisings - Very intelligent and if they get bored they get tricky. Mare I have is lovely but a worrier.
Big Sink Hope - Painful. Spooky buggers
Ghareebs - Saints
Harlequins - Lovely horses 
Obos Quality - Again Lovely
Guidams - Cold as ice (mine anyway)


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## wildcard (4 January 2012)

What a great thread  Ive got a mare out of not very well known stallion called Omar who is by oberon??  I met the stallion and he was a total BFG amazing temp and seems to have definately passed this on to my mare but did hear Oberon could produce some very quirky to say the least youngsters.. any thoughts?? and anyone with anything By Omar. Just to say i think there is 2 Stallions called Omar one arab but this one is dutch warmblood?? Hope thats correct?? 

 xx


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## seabsicuit2 (4 January 2012)

Any experience with Cult Hero's and Ghareebs?

I have a new one of this cross,( sire Cult hero, damsire Ghareeb) early days yet but he seems very much like a complete good little schoolboy, very goody two shoes, obedient and sensible!


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## Lark (4 January 2012)

seabsicuit2 said:



			Any experience with Cult Hero's and Ghareebs?

I have a new one of this cross,( sire Cult hero, damsire Ghareeb) early days yet but he seems very much like a complete good little schoolboy, very goody two shoes, obedient and sensible!
		
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Ghareebs are absolute saints  gorgeous easy horses.
Although not spectacular looking..more workmanlike.


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## MadisonBelle (4 January 2012)

Anyone any experience with Caretino offspring??


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## seabsicuit2 (4 January 2012)

Lark said:



			Ghareebs are absolute saints  gorgeous easy horses.
Although not spectacular looking..more workmanlike.
		
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That seems to be exactly what mine is like- He's also very plain and workmanlike looking but very correct &well put together! I'm not used to having such a plain jane but he is lovely!


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## GCC (4 January 2012)

MadisonBelle said:



			Anyone any experience with Caretino offspring??
		
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had a friend who had one, gelding he was, and she found him to be an awful worrier and prone to loosing weight from stressing! that being said he did the job very well, but had his own way of doing things


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## toomanyhorses26 (5 January 2012)

sums my luso mare up to be honest - she can be a little thick but equally but her over some x country fences etc and she is very clever,very sensitive in the rein contact -very odd animal


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## Aces_High (5 January 2012)

Hi All!  Another late comer!  I can offer some input on the TB stallions....
Kris - generally the fillies are fairly stressy and sharp.
Erhaab - can be thick winded - another I wouldn't touch due to wind is Dayjur.
Tobougg - I actually broke him in!  He was the most insecure horse I've ever come across but very sweet and a super ride.  He didn't winter in Dubai as you couldn't get him out of his stable and they didn't think it was worth trying to fly him over.
Danehill - worked with a load of these in S.Hemisphere...  Strong, butty and bloody good racehorses.  The ones in the N.Hemisphere tend to be lighter but again very good racehorses.
Danehill Dancer - Similar to the above!


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## TheoryX1 (5 January 2012)

Sorry to hijack thread, but has anyone had experience of Samber offspring.  I've already posted that we have one of his grand-daughters, by Hercorose.  Our mare is the spitting image of Samber, and he seems to be well known, but apart from her half brother, I havent come across too many myself.  Our little mare has his colouring, prescence, paces and is just a lovely little person - the perfect teenagers event horse.  Just wondered about others if anyone has had any experience of his offspring.


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## WellyBaggins (5 January 2012)

Aces_High said:



			Hi All!  Another late comer!  I can offer some input on the TB stallions....
Kris - generally the fillies are fairly stressy and sharp.
Erhaab - can be thick winded - another I wouldn't touch due to wind is Dayjur.
Tobougg - I actually broke him in!  He was the most insecure horse I've ever come across but very sweet and a super ride.  He didn't winter in Dubai as you couldn't get him out of his stable and they didn't think it was worth trying to fly him over.
Danehill - worked with a load of these in S.Hemisphere...  Strong, butty and bloody good racehorses.  The ones in the N.Hemisphere tend to be lighter but again very good racehorses.
Danehill Dancer - Similar to the above!
		
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Facinating about Tobougg, we have a gelding by him and he is the most cocky, sure of himself TB I have ever come across 

Any knowledge on Polish Precedent?


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## Aces_High (5 January 2012)

Welly Christmas said:



			Facinating about Tobougg, we have a gelding by him and he is the most cocky, sure of himself TB I have ever come across 

Any knowledge on Polish Precedent? 

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I love Polish Precendent Colts!  I used to ride a lot of them - very cocky, sweet and great temperaments which is strange as Rakti was incredibly difficult.  I quarantined Pilsudski and he was a complete gent.

What is your Tobougg's dam sire?


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## WellyBaggins (5 January 2012)

The chestnut in my Sig, avatar is by PP , the Tobougg is out of Opalite


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## muddy_grey (5 January 2012)

Another late comer.  From my experience:
It's the Business - Fab!!!  Unbelievable jump, but sharp.  I have had the pleasure to ride 4 and they were all very similar.  I got mine as an unbroken 4yo when I was 17 and I did everything myself.  He was sharp, but the most genuine horse ever.  He went onto compete up to 1m50 despites only being 15.1
They tend to be small and short and also all 4 had "normal" hair at the top of their tails, think first role of a tail bandage length

Demonstrator - Grumpy Biters we had 3

Any one know anything about Vamiro?  My new girl is so sweet on the ground and generally lovely to ride, but with a whopping buck!


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## Daytona (5 January 2012)

Pilot / Epilot difficult sensitive horses, you need the patience of a saint

I have a indoctro baby at the moment and it's fair to say I'm struggling with him.  Superb big jump though


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## Jenni_ (5 January 2012)

I've come across one Accondy gelding - and he was a horrid beast!! Very nice to look at and nice , talented under saddle- but he'd lunge at you, bite, pull faces, etc etc. One of those horse you just growl back at an try to avoid working with ; )


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## ttt (5 January 2012)

MadisonBelle said:



			Anyone any experience with Caretino offspring??
		
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Yes, I have a Caretino mare that is the kindest, easiest mare on the ground. Sharp under saddle though.


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## muffinthemule (5 January 2012)

What a great thread! Fascinating. Totally jumping on the band wagon but can anyone tell me anything about Golden River offspring?  I have one and he is a touch...erm...unique so would love to hear about others.


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## oldvic (5 January 2012)

TheoryX1 said:



			Sorry to hijack thread, but has anyone had experience of Samber offspring.  I've already posted that we have one of his grand-daughters, by Hercorose.  Our mare is the spitting image of Samber, and he seems to be well known, but apart from her half brother, I havent come across too many myself.  Our little mare has his colouring, prescence, paces and is just a lovely little person - the perfect teenagers event horse.  Just wondered about others if anyone has had any experience of his offspring.
		
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I had a lovely Samber horse. Fabulous paces, particularly his walk. He was quite sensitive and could be tense but had a fairly rushed start to his ridden life (imported unbroken and jumping in foxhunters within months!!) so that didn't help. He was very kind and trainable with great presence and very competitive.


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## woodtiger (30 January 2012)

[Big Sink Hope - Painful. Spooky buggers
[/QUOTE]

Ha ha, I had a Big Sink Hope horse, and that is exactly how I'd have described him!


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## woodtiger (30 January 2012)

Tinks81 said:



			OMG really ?????????? The one i owned was extremely sharp but was soooooo careful and turned out a superstar!! i know 2 others who are both like my boy was and never heard of them being saints !!!! x
		
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My Elmshorn was called Moose as when he put his head over the stable door he was so quiet it looked like a stuffed moose head.  He was an angel but the opposite of sharp.  You could put a toddler on him.  

On the other hand my Sheraton horse is out of an Elmshorn mare, and he is the anti-Moose.  You wouldn't want to give him more than a couple of days without work!


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## YasandCrystal (30 January 2012)

wildcard said:



			What a great thread  Ive got a mare out of not very well known stallion called Omar who is by oberon??  I met the stallion and he was a total BFG amazing temp and seems to have definately passed this on to my mare but did hear Oberon could produce some very quirky to say the least youngsters.. any thoughts?? and anyone with anything By Omar. Just to say i think there is 2 Stallions called Omar one arab but this one is dutch warmblood?? Hope thats correct?? 

 xx
		
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Omar was pts a couple of years ago now. I don't know about Oberon's temperament.


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## Colivet (30 January 2012)

Another latecomer:

The only Euphemism I ever met was a filly who was so easy to break the worst she ever did was squeal and shake her head - though she did seem a little dim and took quite a while to figure out poles.

Chairlift mare (sire of Abbervail Dream) - absolute lady.  not particularly affectionate but ground manners to burn.  sensitive ride but not naughty - listens to the rider (in my case to her detriment )

Ginger Dick (ID sire of Flash La Silla) gelding - cheeky monkey, safe as houses, can put your grannie on him but will give his all in competition, but will fight back if you really annoy him.  

Dexter's Puzzle - 3 homebred by him, colts complete dotes, filly a bit more stressy.  Boys kept their gentlemanly behaviour into adulthood and breaking and were gentlemen with mares also (but then their mother (Chairlift mare) was a lady.


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## K27 (2 February 2012)

siennamum said:



			Ah, you'vemet my KoD 5 year old then,  he is starting to be a little saint rising 6 so I live in hope.

His dad (Old Leighlin) isn't famous but seems to have offspring who are very alike. Love to work, can be really scopy, but a bit eccentric/opinionated - don't like clippers/farrier/leaves etc. I know 3, all the same.
		
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Interesting post!-Ha ha my boy has KOD in his breeding- have had him since he was 4, he's 16 now- as others have said- v quirky, opinionated, a real character but very very talented and v clever- would be lethal in the wrong hands and would take the mick something rotten if he could! makes me laugh loads though- love him to bits!, other boy has Limmerick in his breeding- sharp, clever and talented and and a bit gorgeous though! but i'm not biased!.


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## Goldenstar (2 February 2012)

Freddie19 said:



			Master Imp, Imp by name, Imp by nature........not for the slow or faint-hearted!
		
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Mine preferred bucking to breathing unil it was ten


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## unlimited10 (2 February 2012)

this thread is brilliant!! someone asked about cape cross, i've only known one filly from him and she was the most docile creature i've ever met, not quite sure how good she will be on the track mind!

anyone have any information on lordanos?


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## Charem (3 February 2012)

Major late comer here!

Most people I have spoken to about Sandro Hit refer to him as Sandro *****....apparently very tricky which he passes down.

I looked after a filly by Erhaab couple years ago, still have the hoofprint on my leg to prove it! Jet black filly with a wicked attitude and got a couple girls off on the yard. She had her occasional sweet moments though.

Every Opposition horse I have ever come across likes to 'wave' to the crowds  Though most would go to the end of the earth for you if you got them on side.

Looked after a Bandmaster gelding a few years back, very handsome chap but bone idle as hell.

The couple of De Niro fillys I know are insanely pretty and know it! They are stubborn, oppionated but also seem to be very quick learners and utterly float.

I used to own a Great Palm gelding. He was a complete sweety but quite sensitive. Once he understood what was being asked of him he would try his heart out for you. Had one hell of a pop too, I only sold him as had to pay for an op on my other horse.


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## GCC (4 February 2012)

anyone had a Jus De Pomme offspring? Just been offered the ride on one this week


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## rhino (4 February 2012)

GCC said:



			anyone had a Jus De Pomme offspring? Just been offered the ride on one this week
		
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I rode one, didn't own him. Lovely enthusiastic little horse, not very 'cuddly' in the stable but a real worker


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## emmah (4 February 2012)

TheoryX1 said:



			Sorry to hijack thread, but has anyone had experience of Samber offspring.  I've already posted that we have one of his grand-daughters, by Hercorose.  Our mare is the spitting image of Samber, and he seems to be well known, but apart from her half brother, I havent come across too many myself.  Our little mare has his colouring, prescence, paces and is just a lovely little person - the perfect teenagers event horse.  Just wondered about others if anyone has had any experience of his offspring.
		
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My coloured mare (in my sig)  is a Samber grandaughter.  She is the most talented and beautiful horse I have ever owned but also had an attitude problem to go with it sometimes!!!


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## emmah (4 February 2012)

Has anyone got any experiences of Devil's Jump offspring?  I have a nice youngster by him who is a real sweetie to handle and ride in general and shows bags of talent......BUT there is always a but  she seems to get a little bit wild when it comes to jumping!!!!


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## GCC (5 February 2012)

rhino said:



			I rode one, didn't own him. Lovely enthusiastic little horse, not very 'cuddly' in the stable but a real worker 

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thanks for getting back to me, this ride's only 15.2hh one of the smallest i've been offered to bsja since i've been on horses! :') but has a huge jump, was your ride small?


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## rhino (5 February 2012)

GCC said:



			thanks for getting back to me, this ride's only 15.2hh one of the smallest i've been offered to bsja since i've been on horses! :') but has a huge jump, was your ride small?
		
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He was about 15.3/16hh so pretty small. Big enough for me though! He didn't have the hugest paces and was quite 'ponyish' to jump, but was fab in speed classes and jump offs


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## philamena (5 February 2012)

To throw a bit of a spanner in the Catherston comments so far: I have a Dazzler baby. She's very bright and quite talented which occasionally leads to some interesting conversations, but... she's actually very sweet and sensible the vast majority of the time, seems to be doing fine with amateur little me, and certainly doesn't have sweet itch.


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## Mavis007 (5 February 2012)

I have a Numero Uno gelding (out of a Darco x Jasper mare) who is lovely but very cheeky- he has to have a sign outside his stable to warn people not to leave ANYTHING within reach or he will play with it and destroy it. His favourite trick is if people leave a bale of shavings too close because that can make a really fun mess And he has such a long neck (he is 17.1hh) that he can reach an awfully long way. I have lost track of the number of schooling whips he has managed to reach and destroy. He also sticks his tongue out a lot, both in the stable and when ridden and just loves being the centre of attention. He is very fast and careful to jump but a bit chicken as he just hates hitting fences. Anyone else have experience of Numero Unos? He was bought to bring on and sell but 5yrs later is still definitely not going anywhere


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## willowbay (6 February 2012)

angelish said:



			not as famous as some on here but i wouldn't touch anything by orlando (the colored by oberon) helped a friend sell a mare by him , very tricky and on doing a little snooping found a few others by him the same, a few of them also developed sacoids although i know there not meant to be hireditary
		
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I had a mare on loan by Orlando (the coloured by Oberon) and at first she was very tricky and rude when she arrived but after finding out she relied on a firm hand became a different horse. Very pleasant to work with and willing to learn. She was a gentle giant on the ground and slightly hot headed when mounted. Extremly talent mare with lots of potential but shortly after having her found out something wasn't right with her and after x-rays was diagnosed with kissing spines. 

Also had a pony with similar characteristics but would be very trusting of one person and that person only when handling him. I was the only person ever able to stay on his back for longer than five minutes which probably wasn't his fault due to also having kissing spines. He was out of Voltaire and heard that his offspring often have the problem of developing it.


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## Charem (6 February 2012)

emmah said:



			Has anyone got any experiences of Devil's Jump offspring?  I have a nice youngster by him who is a real sweetie to handle and ride in general and shows bags of talent......BUT there is always a but  she seems to get a little bit wild when it comes to jumping!!!!
		
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I worked with a mare a couple years ago by him. She was sweet and I wouldn't call her nasty, she was just very dippy and occasionally would have funny moments of 'I cant do this' and really dig her heals in/rear. She had nice paces and a decent pop but her attitude held her back. I don't recall her being mad to jump, just stubborn at times!


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## lillie07 (6 February 2012)

quizzie said:



			Well, I have one with High Roller (Cavalier) sire, out of a RamiroZ mare....either the best or the worst of two strong willed lines!!. He is a lovely horse on the ground & very talented....but not always particularly easy....has a lot of his own very powerful ideas!  But I think ,if I can continue to gain his trust, he might be the best I have ridden.

   My other horse is by Master Imp.....as someone on HHO once said..."don't pick a fight with a Master Imp..they will fight you back till hell freezes over!"

   Mind you....the fact that I bought both of them after riding homebreds for some years, may say more about MY insanity (hereditary???) than anything else......Maybe we should have a thread about human inherited traits.....or maybe not!
		
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My Master Imp horse (out of an ID mare) was VERY quirky and sharp as a 5/6 year old, he was far too much for me as a novice amateur but we continued through and now (at 11) he is the sweetest most genuine horse ever. He still has the occasional little quirk but I am more to blame for those than his genetics.

I had a mare by Animo previous to him, she was a super fast learner, we progressed very quickly through the grades in dressage- she was unbelievably athletic and you did something once and it was there forever!! However, she would either win with 70% or be so stupid coming off the lorry you couldnt get on. It took over a year to be able to hack her safely and she wouldnt turn out for longer than a couple of hours.  Nearly every professional we came across said she was a pros horse, and in the right hands I am sure she could have been amazing. I loved her dearly but she completely destroyed my confidence.


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## GCC (7 February 2012)

rhino said:



			He was about 15.3/16hh so pretty small. Big enough for me though! He didn't have the hugest paces and was quite 'ponyish' to jump, but was fab in speed classes and jump offs 

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yes, this one reminds me of a big pony quite short strided, but can't wait to get him out and see what he's like!


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## vicky86 (8 February 2012)

Another late comer - that took some reading but was very interesting.
Think someone asked about negros. From what I've heard of most negros they are forward, willing but sharp sometimes very sharp. Canter is generally their strongest pace but trot is most often correct and active with a good hind leg. I have a 5 1/2 year old by negretto (think someone else on here has got one too, would be interesting to compare) and to be honest he seems to follow suit with what I've seen and heard of the negro line. He is very, very (maybe to much so if thats possible) forward and willing,canter is strongest pace yet all 3 paces are correct and active but he is sharp which I personally look for in a horse. My trainer has a direct descendant of negro and to be honest he is very similar to mine, maybe with slightly more attitude. 

I personally would definitely have one by him if I got the opportunity, heres hoping!


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## Badders (8 February 2012)

Hi Mavis007, I know a Numero Uno gelding who is just the same as yours, he belongs to my sj trainer. "Ernie" spends his life dreaming up cheeky new tricks, loves sticking his tongue out, loves playing with the yard dogs and will pick up/ trash anything left within reach. He's a very careful jumper and hates to touch a pole, a bit sharp to ride, but a very sweet boy.


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## Stormy123456 (8 February 2012)

My Graheeb 6 year old is really sweet to deal with, scopey and generally has a 'can do' attitude, although she can be sometimes be quirky and a little hot. She's not particularly plain, good looking actually. 

Does anyone have a Romany Rye (TB) horse? 

Mines nothing to look at, nor moves fantastically, but I've never sat on such a scopey, powerful jump, jumps literally anything and is the soppiest mare. Highly strung and very strong.


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## abitodd (8 February 2012)

kerryflower said:



			Thanks for that  Mine is only 6 and to be fair is a very cool dude and in general, wuite mature. I mean he goes out hacking alone like an old pro and has successfully done his first season eventing at be90 and now working to elementary bd. Interesting ou say slow to mature as physically he does look like he does need to grow into himself a bit and def still has toddler ginger ninja tantrums!! I have heard good things about Doruto lines and the Wellington line but just wanted to knwo if anyone had more info  Did yours have a late growth spurt??
		
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Yes,2 or so inches from 6-8 and has filled out immensely in the last year.


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## chipsy (8 February 2012)

does anyone have any "its the business" "oscar" or " caeser van de helle" horses???


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## applestroodle (8 February 2012)

Brilliant thread only just come acceoss this, anyone any experience with Guest Right horses?


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## kerilli (23 February 2012)

A friend asked me last night about Mayhill offspring, any experiences please, everyone?
His is 3 and, apparently, not being easy at all...


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## maestro (23 February 2012)

We have a few May hills through all of them had talent in varying degrees but big attitude, a bit like a hot air ballon and could deflate rather quickly. That said if you got in their brains they would work for you.


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## Puppy (23 February 2012)

WellyBaggins said:



			Facinating about Tobougg, we have a gelding by him and he is the most cocky, sure of himself TB I have ever come across 

Any knowledge on Polish Precedent? 

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Aces_High said:



			I love Polish Precendent Colts!  I used to ride a lot of them - very cocky, sweet and great temperaments which is strange as Rakti was incredibly difficult.  I quarantined Pilsudski and he was a complete gent.

What is your Tobougg's dam sire?
		
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I'm 99.9999% sure that the little mare staying at mine at the mo is by Polish Precedent and she has a temperament to die for. She is too sweet for words! 

I had a wonderful mare by Augerman whom I lost last year age 25. Funnily enough my farrier had shod Augerman back in his day and apparently Star was very similar to her sire. She was *erm* strong minded, bold and didn't suffer fools but if you had her on side she had the heart of a lion. I loved to see Dunauger in action as I could really see the family resemblance. I'd be interested to hear if anyone else has an Augerman horse?


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## sillygillyhorse (23 February 2012)

louisem said:



			Sorry I'm late....
Belgian sire 'Unique' tends to donate his breathing issues
'Darco' cold backs and/or girthing problems as youngsters
'Pion' and sometimes 'Jokinal de Bornival' blood, sweet itch
'Lys de Darmen' dares to give windsuckers and weavers
However all of the above have given many good horses,just some of them have had a few 'extra' options......
		
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Interesting to hear the Darco line can be cold backed as youngsters, my 4yo has Darco way back in her pedigree and we suspect she may be a little cold backed.  She also has Nimmerdor five generations back on both sides, all the ones I have had with Nimmerdor have had a bit of a nappy side to them, others I have seen at sales look to have "attitude".  From my personal experience I would no longer want anything with Nimmerdor lines which rules out rather a lot!

My Ramiro Z descendant is an absolute gentleman but can get a little worried but is the kindest most loving horse.


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## koeffee (4 March 2012)

4faults said:



			Haha I have to agree with the Ramiro Z as I am currently on my third mare of his lines. 

My Broadstone Landmark boy is kind with an amazing personality, very cheeky and loveable.

Does anyone have experience with Concorde babies?
		
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ihave a concorde although no longer a baby, very sensitive, loyal, honest worker who will try anything i ask!


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## koeffee (4 March 2012)

kerilli said:



			I've heard exactly the same from someone else with a very tricky Jumbo, hope my girl won't turn out like that.

I forgot, I have a Stonegrove Ace mare, and have been told that he was the sweetest stallion to handle, and passes that on. Sure enough, she has a lovely temperament. Was also told that he threw solid chestnut males or elegant bay fillies - yes, she's the latter, spot on.

TarrSteps, here's a good one: a friend had a mare and stallion, bred them to other horses, and to each other. Neither parent crib-bit or windsucked, nor did any of their offspring by or out of other horses, but that particular cross always produced mares and colts who did both. Hmmmm.
		
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My Stongrove Ace mare is chestnut not a single wbit of white, quirky mare but when she trust you i think she would take on the world, throws decent jumpers and dressage youngsters too!

Celano are sweet tempered as well, work hard, very level and try to please.

Granduer throws old stamp of warmblood mare i have is gutsy, very brave and in you face, but very loving, always top dog though!


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## koeffee (4 March 2012)

dieseldog said:



			I have heard Cavalier Royale's are sharp, as are Samber horses, can't be many of those left around though.  I would never buy a Catherston horse as they are a Pro's ride.  It's the business is supposed to be sharp too and Carnival Drum.  But sharp might just mean not an amateur horse. 

I have heard of a stallion in Devon that throws foals with one eye. 

I used to have a 2nd generation Ramiro Z too, he was a total saint.
		
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I have a cracking Cavalier Royal x Cloverhill mare, competed to a decent level, very uncomplicated but a little buzzy, would have another


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## koeffee (4 March 2012)

Cortez said:



			Going back a bit, Euphemisms were all nutjobs, and nasty with it.
		
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Had one years ago, she was a grumpy sod and i felt i got lumbered with a elephant, was glad to sell, my friend wasnt to happy!!! it would eat  a house to and never look really well!!


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## koeffee (4 March 2012)

xLucyGx said:



			Does anyone have a horse by Olympic lux? My mares by him, she's a poppet and very talented but likes to do bare minimum if she can get away with it. 

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Lux produces fab stallion horses but i find the mares make better broodmares, i would happily snap one up!!


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## koeffee (4 March 2012)

xLucyGx said:



			Does anyone have a horse by Olympic lux? My mares by him, she's a poppet and very talented but likes to do bare minimum if she can get away with it. 

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Lux produces fab stallion horses but i find the mares make better broodmares, i would happily snap one up!! Olympic Lux dont now much about!!


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## koeffee (4 March 2012)

SamandMonty said:



			My boy is a Darco Grandbaby but never had any girthing issue or coldbackedness?? (not sure thats a word lol). 
Anyone know anything about Winningmood as thats his daddy?
		
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My foals dad is by Winningmood, and i can honestly say i would have put him in my car had he fit!!!
HUge horse, with donkey ears and a pussy cat temp, and so chilled and laid back, yet now under saddle and loves his work keen, ridable and scopey!


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## koeffee (4 March 2012)

oldvic said:



			The Lusos that I have worked with have been quite thick with a rather silly streak and quite heavy headed. (A bit wooden mentally and physically!!!).
		
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 i had a lovely luso mare, very sweet, almost brainless but so king, was also very chuncky


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## Toby_Zaphod (4 March 2012)

Corland's offspring all seem to kick out a back leg following a big jump. He also mainly sires greys.


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## koeffee (4 March 2012)

muffinthemule said:



			What a great thread! Fascinating. Totally jumping on the band wagon but can anyone tell me anything about Golden River offspring?  I have one and he is a touch...erm...unique so would love to hear about others.
		
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I had a lovely mare by GR sweet tempered, didnt like being overly fussed, jumped a bit, sensible to hack, but a pain in the arse to catch, nice mare though, but very short strided


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## koeffee (4 March 2012)

GCC said:



			anyone had a Jus De Pomme offspring? Just been offered the ride on
 one this week
		
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Had 3 out of my Jus De Pomme mare who was sadly pts last year, mares was a sweetheart, so kind, loveble, big substantial girl, was to old to ride when i got her but she moved straight. Both youngsters are very different by different sires too, eldest with No complaints on sire line, is sharp, sensative like one to one, but not very giving and you could be doing things over and over and he wont improve, his full sister is the opposite, brave, bold and wants to do stuff, last years colt by a winningmood stallion is amazing, inquisative, clever, sane, and stunning and not for sale!!


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## koeffee (4 March 2012)

chipsy said:



			does anyone have any "its the business" "oscar" or " caeser van de helle" horses???
		
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Had a stallion in the yard, chunky horse, worked hard, never stupid, bit green but could be very cheeky, give him an inch and would take a mile, talented, had a filly out of him who was lovely


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## imafluffybunny (4 March 2012)

stolensilver said:



			Many posts ago someone asked about the Trakehner Va Tout. I had the misfortune to own a Va Tout daughter. She was 16hh, pretty, superb paces, enormous jump, the only horse I've ever taken over a 5'6" hedge and had a foot to spare when she wasn't even trying. She had a 7' jump in her and probably more. 

She was also crazy. So stressy in the stable she almost kicked her way through a breezeblock wall. So stressy in the field she ran the fence from the second she went out to when she came in. One summer we decided to tough it out and leave her in the 70 acre field with 7 other horses for company till she calmed down. 4 days later she was still running the fence...

I had help from a guy who had evented to European level. She jumped a parked car with him out on a hack one day because he'd asked her to stand still at a junction and she didn't see why she should. She took me over several dry stone walls at the side of the road with no rhyme or reason and most worryingly, no warning. She tried to double barrel cars as they went past you. She did that with no warning either. 

I later learned that with her previous owner (I bought her age 5) she regularly reared over backwards. She didn't do that with me but she was ridden every single day and treated very carefully. Asking around my Va Tout was not unusual. A small % of his offspring are super. Most are nutcases.
		
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Really interesting SS, I have a mare who's dam sire is Vatout, she is also stressy when put in an unknown situation. (nothing like your mare though!) She has incredable trainability and is very intelligent, she is by Royal Dance (Rohdiament x Donnerhall) so I presume the trainability comes from them. 
Her dam has produced a licenced stallion and a GP gelding both in Germany. A friend of mine has a Va Tout mare who she competes at PSG, my friend is not a confident rider!


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## imafluffybunny (4 March 2012)

Ludoctro said:



			Pilot / Epilot difficult sensitive horses, you need the patience of a saint
		
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I had a gelding who's dam sire was Pilot, extreemly sensitive and nappy. When he wanted to work he was amazing, rest of the time he was a pain in the A**!!


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## GCC (4 March 2012)

koeffee said:



			Had 3 out of my Jus De Pomme mare who was sadly pts last year, mares was a sweetheart, so kind, loveble, big substantial girl, was to old to ride when i got her but she moved straight. Both youngsters are very different by different sires too, eldest with No complaints on sire line, is sharp, sensative like one to one, but not very giving and you could be doing things over and over and he wont improve, his full sister is the opposite, brave, bold and wants to do stuff, last years colt by a winningmood stallion is amazing, inquisative, clever, sane, and stunning and not for sale!!
		
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mine has Jus De Pomme in the sire's lines and Heartbreaker on the mares side, He's nice but isn't half bouncy really up and infront on me to ride, but he'll go all day!


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## unlimited10 (6 March 2012)

Used to ride a big jus de pomme mare, she was about 17.2hh, massive ears, massive jump and a total sweetheart to deal with - i would always have one again!

it's the business - i know a few horses by this stallion, all of whom are fairly sharp, but in a competitive way. they love to win but are also extremely sensitive. They are also oddly normally all super careful infront!!

I've dealt with a few quickstar horses, all of whom have been mega mega sharp and opinionated. one was 15.1hh and the other was 17.2hh, and both of them would have jumped a car if they were asked to. They live to jump and are the boldest horses i've ever ridden. the 15.1hh often used to jump two stride 1.10m doubles with just one stride in between. now he was a proper athlete, but was a bit of a thug to ride!

Does anyone know anything about the stallion Jasper? I know he's referred to as the 'little one', but after that i cant find out much more about him temperament wise and what kind of horses he throws!


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## LadyLuck1977 (6 March 2012)

Anyone know what Elroon off spring are like?


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## Pippin79 (6 March 2012)

bellatrix said:



			Does anyone know anything about Cavalier (Royale) offspring?
		
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We have had quite a few of these, still have a couple and now have several out of Cavalier mares, they are some of the best we've had.  All super talented, scopey, brave and love to jump, very quick and competitive too.  Can be quite playful and quirky though, happy to go over anything spooky but at times not so keen to go past it!  The ones we've had have all been great on the ground and very easy to do though.  We have a Cavalier stallion currently and he is a pleasure to ride and handle, not sharp at all but buckets of scope and ability, has jumped 1.30's successfully with a 16 year old girl.  As you have probably guessed I'm quite a fan of them!


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## Turtul (31 March 2012)

Wow I love this thread! I wrote my undergrad dissertation on genetics and breeding, particularly in the TB world, would love to write a book on it *geek*

A brief bit of my experience would be (although not all stallions in use anymore):

_Saddlers Wells_ - very true to type, often heavy on the forehand almost always bay with pretty white markings, stupidly thick manes! 

_Cloudings_ produced some amazing looking colts but often slow to mature

_Silver Patriarch_ wonderful, wonderful, temperaments but not always good in first time mares - biiiig foals

_Rainbow High_ short, ugly duckling foals with 'go on then, make me attitudes'

_Golden Heights_ Got a screw loose. Volatile isn't the word. Jekyll and Hyde. However, give them a job and full time work and they are super talented.

_Olympic Lux_ Very talented well built and keen, will go like a train on the gallops/cross country


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## DuckToller (31 March 2012)

Know 3 homebred Jumbo offspring - all 3 mares, 2 very easy, one quirky.  

One by Renkum Valentino - straightforward but can be stressy - box walks and weaves when anxious.

Anyone know a horse by Limbo?  I have one by him - very uncooperative horse.


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## sv-masterchef (1 April 2012)

Very interesting thread! Does anybody have any experience of Indorado or Cornet Obolensky horses? 

We had a quick star mare who was exactly as described above! She would jump a house but nothing we did would change her way of going or curb her enthusiasm for jumping. Also have a jacorde (by concorde) gelding who is extremely kind natured and easy to work with.


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## Gingey (1 April 2012)

Anyone with racing knowledge know anything about Green Desert and his progeny?


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## starryeyed (2 April 2012)

Love this thread! So interesting!


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## palomino_pony (3 April 2012)

It's an old one but my aunt has a mare by Brunswick. All her foals have had a particularly bolshy streak, with a vile nap. :-( amazing jump when brain is in the right place. I heard same from most people who has a Brunswick offspring


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## Lgd (3 April 2012)

Bit short on dressage lines here 

Jazz offspring - hot hot hot but very talented, not usually for he faint-hearted or amateur rider.

Flemmingh & Donnerhall lines - very rideable, nice to handle.

Ferro's - nice temperament and trainability but quite sensitive.

My old lady is by a local TB stallion from very old-fashioned lines. He was known locally for producing a lovely temperament even with quirky mares. He only had around 30 offspring but they are all really tough little horses like him. He lived into his late 20's and to my knowledge the only one of his who died before the age of 20 was one due to colic and one that died as a foal. 
This is my mare's lines http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/lucky+miss+perrier
She had a beautiful but quirky Mum but is her sire through and through. Easiest horse I ever backed. Amazing temperament, very trainable and has definitely inherited his toughness as she has managed to come sound at the age of 23yo after almost severing her SDFT last year! She is very like her sire in one trait - she loves her bed and lies in the most weird position with her head and neck up the wall on top of a heap of shavings she has created. He did exactly the same, he also whinnied in his sleep which she also does.

I have two Mooiman (Flemmingh x Roemer) offspring out of the above mare and is fascinating to see how the traits have mixed. I have a 6yo chestnut (!) mare who has been even easier than her Mum to back. I didn't do it due to time constraints but she was happily hacking out 4 days after being sat on for the first time! Both lines mature late (her dam didn't stop growing until she was an 8yo!) and I have certainly seen that with her and left backing until she was almost 5yo. Took her to her first dressage party last week and apart from baby mistakes was an angel, first test bit backward then just took a deep breath and went forward as normal for the second. This all in a very spooky venue. She never chucks the towel in either, even when she is tired she keeps trying for you. Did have a few 'teenage' moments last autumn but soon got past those.
The 2yo colt has a mischievous streak like his sire but has the same sweet nature of both parents.
One trait that has continued down from the grand-sire is the sleeping habit - both do the same as their Mum down to the whinnying in their sleep


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## Goldenstar (3 April 2012)

Any one know any Blackthorn offspring.
Or any of the TB Beauchamp King.


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## peleowner (3 April 2012)

MandyMoo said:



			I have seen this as well! ridden a couple of them and they have been very laid back! (but talented)

My horse Monty is by Graf Magna, related to Graf Grannus and Graf Fennmaster, and have been told by numerous people that the Graf line are all very brave and talented, so make good eventers... however are a bit sharp and silly with EVERYTHING that isn't put infront of them as a jump...!!! Which to be frank, is so true of Monty and another Graf horse i know of, so talented and will jump anything, but walk them PAST  jump and they look at it like it is going to eat them!!

Clover lines always seem to make very good jumpers.

But looking at this thread, it does prove that breeding and characteristics and quirks passing onto offspring really is still debatable!!!
		
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I have a count alaric/graf grannus gelding. Absolute cross country machine, nothing fazes him juping and competing, if.... he has the right rider! And he feels he has to pick them. Otherwise he just won't pick his feet up SJ. Huge, and sensitive but 100% pure talent, and never had a time penalty.


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## Aces_High (3 April 2012)

Gingey said:



			Anyone with racing knowledge know anything about Green Desert and his progeny?
		
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Green Desert is a SMASHING stallion - he stood and is at Shadwell's Nunnery Stud and really smashed a lot of boundaries.  He's by sire of sire's Danzig.  He's a fabulous looking chap and often throws stong, butty, smallish racy types.  Green Desert himself is also a sire of sire's.  A truly amazing racehorse (sprinter) and stallion


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## Rafferoo (3 April 2012)

Sportznight said:



			He was a complete shite as a yearling!  But then a lot of Storm Cat's are!

Montjeu fillies - stress heads, as are King's Best fillies (would take a Montjeu filly over a King's Best any day!)

Gone West mares - delightfully sweet and kind natured!
Pleasant Colony - big boned/framed horses with generous natures.
		
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I have a Gone West gelding but he is a total barm cake!! Retired now but still likes to show us all his tummy button and jog sideways too and from the field with the odd leap in the air thrown in for good measure : ) Fabulous in the stable though and kind - just a tad highly strung!


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## Rafferoo (3 April 2012)

Oh and really brave - not spooky - and with a fab jump on him which was only discovered after racing! He was not tough though - always a niggle or something wrong with him.  Nureyev was his dam sire.


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## 4faults (3 April 2012)

Has anyone had one by Concept?


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## oldvic (3 April 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			Any one know any Blackthorn offspring.
Or any of the TB Beauchamp King.
		
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Beauchamp King stood at Alfie Buller's Scarvagh Stud. Andrew Nicholson's Shady Grey is by him.


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## JVB (3 April 2012)

4faults said:



			Haha I have to agree with the Ramiro Z as I am currently on my third mare of his lines. 

My Broadstone Landmark boy is kind with an amazing personality, very cheeky and loveable.

Does anyone have experience with Concorde babies?
		
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My mare has Concorde as her grandsire, she is challenging and a bit quirky but this has got less as she's matured, otherwise a very sweet loving horse who tries very hard when she's not too scared!

Also, she is completely incapable of standing still


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## AdorableAlice (3 April 2012)

My horse is by Qyou De Longvaut, who is by I Love You 

I love you is by Alme, I understand they are all show jumping bred.

Anybody heard of them ?


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## spotty_pony (3 April 2012)

What an interesting thread! 

I know a chestnut mare by Carnival Drum who has a lovely temperament and is very talented. 

Does anyone have any information on Star of Orion, Future (by Florestan I) Marmite D'or or Apache Run offspring?


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## Aces_High (4 April 2012)

Rafferoo said:



			I have a Gone West gelding but he is a total barm cake!! Retired now but still likes to show us all his tummy button and jog sideways too and from the field with the odd leap in the air thrown in for good measure : ) Fabulous in the stable though and kind - just a tad highly strung!
		
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I have always found Gone West's to be very very very sharp!!  The fillies tend to be worse than the colts.  All good fun


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## smiles24 (4 April 2012)

Anyone got sambertino offspring?


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## Millie-Rose (4 April 2012)

MandyMoo said:



			I have seen this as well! ridden a couple of them and they have been very laid back! (but talented)

My horse Monty is by Graf Magna, related to Graf Grannus and Graf Fennmaster, and have been told by numerous people that the Graf line are all very brave and talented, so make good eventers... however are a bit sharp and silly with EVERYTHING that isn't put infront of them as a jump...!!! Which to be frank, is so true of Monty and another Graf horse i know of, so talented and will jump anything, but walk them PAST  jump and they look at it like it is going to eat them!!

Clover lines always seem to make very good jumpers.

But looking at this thread, it does prove that breeding and characteristics and quirks passing onto offspring really is still debatable!!!
		
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I have a gelding who has Graf Magna as a grand-Sire and he is exactly as you descibe. He is also the most tricky, complicated creature I have ever come across but despite this is always impeccable to ride just on the ground he is a sod! I have known him since birth and owned him since rising 2 so know he has never been mistreated. Also knew his Dam very well and unfortunately he is nothing like her at all very much his fathers son which is a shame. Also has navicular aged 12   He has major water phobia so can't see him making an eventer!

Also have a mare by Secret Rumour who was Grade A and ridden by Nick Skelton. She is amazing and I would actively look for another by him she is very talented (instructor reckons int eventing- not with me I hasten to add!) but is also incredibly easy to deal with good to clip, shoe, catch, box and I genuinely think I could hack her down the M1 if I wanted nothing phases her. This is very refreshing as my other two are quirky to hack and in other ways. She is a true allrounder amateurs horse. Also looks a lot like her sire with a distinctive white blaze. Know nothing about the dam except she had a weatherbys passport so can't comment on how much is down to her.


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## kirstyl (4 April 2012)

Gingey said:



			Anyone with racing knowledge know anything about Green Desert and his progeny?
		
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I have one by Desert Prince, Green Desert is my boy's grandsire. Extremely talented and generally very trainable but he is quirky. Do you have one by him?


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## caramel (4 April 2012)

I have an Imperial Frontier and I've found him to be sharp, tricky in the head, forward thinking but wonderful to handle. Non competitive and will try almost anything.

Any info on Presenting? Out of curiosity really.


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## kirstyl (4 April 2012)

Has anyone got a horse by Shambo?  Mine was the nicest boy you could ever wish to meet. Temperament to die for, handsome, trainable, scopey and 100% honest. Unfortunately he wasn't as co-ordinated with his legs as he could be and the more schooled he became in dressage, the tenser and more hoppy he became. He was never going to be a dressage horse but he loved jumping and was so honest. Little tear as I remember!!


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## 3Beasties (4 April 2012)

Has anyone dealt with horses by Ceaser Van De Helle or Cabdula Du Tillard? Thoughts on these stallions?


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## Gingey (4 April 2012)

Aces_High said:



			Green Desert is a SMASHING stallion - he stood and is at Shadwell's Nunnery Stud and really smashed a lot of boundaries.  He's by sire of sire's Danzig.  He's a fabulous looking chap and often throws stong, butty, smallish racy types.  Green Desert himself is also a sire of sire's.  A truly amazing racehorse (sprinter) and stallion 

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kirstyl said:



			I have one by Desert Prince, Green Desert is my boy's grandsire. Extremely talented and generally very trainable but he is quirky. Do you have one by him?
		
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Yes, I do, Green Desert's his sire  Sold for a huge amount as a yearling, raced well for a few years and had a few wins, then from what I'm told basically lost interest and was sold as a 7yo. I bought him just before he turned 9, and we do a bit of everything. Had him for 2yrs now but we've only really 'clicked' and properly unlocked his potential in last 9months or so! He is pretty cracking to look at, and naturally athletic but definitely quirky. Main issue we've had is that he is a real overthinker and is easily worried (took us months and months to regain his jumping confidence once he'd had a bad experience) but he's a genuine trier with a big heart  Nice paces and big scopey jump too. And his gallop- Wow!  He really can cover the ground, I'd happily gallop him all day 
As you can tell I'm quite a fan of him...


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## Amaretto (12 April 2012)

Badders said:



			Hi Mavis007, I know a Numero Uno gelding who is just the same as yours, he belongs to my sj trainer. "Ernie" spends his life dreaming up cheeky new tricks, loves sticking his tongue out, loves playing with the yard dogs and will pick up/ trash anything left within reach. He's a very careful jumper and hates to touch a pole, a bit sharp to ride, but a very sweet boy.

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Ernie (Zillion S) is my horse's full brother, a year older!  He is very similar in looks and just mirrors your description!  He's spooky, but that's what makes him so careful.


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## kirstyl (12 April 2012)

Gingey said:







Yes, I do, Green Desert's his sire  Sold for a huge amount as a yearling, raced well for a few years and had a few wins, then from what I'm told basically lost interest and was sold as a 7yo. I bought him just before he turned 9, and we do a bit of everything. Had him for 2yrs now but we've only really 'clicked' and properly unlocked his potential in last 9months or so! He is pretty cracking to look at, and naturally athletic but definitely quirky. Main issue we've had is that he is a real overthinker and is easily worried (took us months and months to regain his jumping confidence once he'd had a bad experience) but he's a genuine trier with a big heart  Nice paces and big scopey jump too. And his gallop- Wow!  He really can cover the ground, I'd happily gallop him all day 
As you can tell I'm quite a fan of him... 

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Lovely to hear about yours. Mine too was sold for big bucks as a yearling, then went to race in Hong Kong at 2.5 yrs. Apparently didn't race as injured but interestingly did come back to England and hurdled and National Hunt flat raced here - I say interestingly as it's been made clear to me on H+H forum and other places that generally horses don't come home from HK so someone must have thought a lot of him - I haven't managed to find out who.  I took him on in an emaciated state in 2010, I've now had him two years and he is going well, we've competed quite a lot prelim dressage and he's won and been placed. He's lovely to jump, really polite and careful. His canter is fantastic! Yet he's quirky and can get worked up extremely quickly. His nimbleness and athletic ability is not a bonus in these situations! Still - he's gorgeous, and a gentleman to handle and ride (most of the time)


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## claracanter (12 April 2012)

Gingey said:



			Anyone with racing knowledge know anything about Green Desert and his progeny?
		
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I know of 3. Apparently a bit difficult as youngster but matured into lovely natured horses, although 2 of them prefer to take life a bit easy


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## Geema (9 July 2012)

which one seems to throw things tricky in the hand?


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## sammylou93 (10 July 2012)

QUOTE "I have a Fleetwater Opposition homebred who is quite challenging, and, like a lot of his apparently, really likes 'waving to the crowds'." QUOTE

Yes I have on like this. He is black and far too intelligent for his own good! Anytime I take him anywhere all I have to do is say he is a Fleetwater horse and people immediately understand why he is the way he is.


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## cobwithattitude (10 July 2012)

Elroon - have friend who has mare by him - sharp, big but talented. Not novice ride.  

How about Canadian River?   (BWB) or Scindian Magician/Good Apple Mare? have heard Good Apple had quite a temper.


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## TheSylv007 (10 July 2012)

Anyone know anything about Diamond Mine offspring?  He has Flagmount Diamond and King of Diamonds in the ancestry and I think one of Oli Townends horses is by him - ODT Sonas Rovatio.

I have a Diamond Mine mare and she is incredibly sweet (a bit daft as well).


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## Botters (10 July 2012)

What a thread, took me a while to get here!

I did have a mare that had Sadler's Wells paternal Grandsire and Danehill maternal grandsire.

She is bay, white socks, white star and has a massive arse! She was lovely to handle though. You'd think with that breeding she'd be a good racehorse, but was utterly useless!

I have 2 by Yarland Summersong (Fleetwater Opposition) having met him in person he waves to anyone, not just a crowd. He is an utter show off!

He supposedly throws hot offspring, but my two are anything but.


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## unlimited10 (10 July 2012)

I love this thread!! does anyone know anything about verdi offspring? I know that Quidam de Revel can throw rather hot offspring with a top jump, but I don't know anything about verdi... anyone?


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## kerilli (10 July 2012)

My Fleetwater Opposition mare continues to surprise me. She seems to have got over the extreme stroppyness but there's still a hell of a lot about her!


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## dressageforever (10 July 2012)

cobwithattitude said:



			Elroon - have friend who has mare by him - sharp, big but talented. Not novice ride.
		
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Throws OCD also!


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## thermidor08 (10 July 2012)

My boy's sire is Giants Causeway. He is head strong and stubborn but tries his heart out! We have had him since a 5yr old (now 9) and he is the nicest natured boy


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## Venevidivici (10 July 2012)

I have a Voltaire grandson(out of a Conto mare). He is the double of his sire&grandsire. He is very clever,lots of character,very nosey,a complete show-off and thinks a lot of himself! However,in the stable he is extremely affectionate and a real people person (he'd rather be with the humans than the horses I think!) and ridden he always tries to please,picks things up very quickly but can,(if he doesn't find what you're doing particularly interesting),be lazy. He is huge movement (DR says biggest trot she's ridden) and is brave&keen SJ & XC (1st time took him xc,jump instructor said he was bravest 5yr old she'd seen-he was gagging for more!) He can be a pig to handle on the ground if it's windy/rainy/he's on one (but I think that's due to the fact he was gelded late & is still coltish in many ways.) I'd have another tho


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## Venevidivici (10 July 2012)

Should say DR trainer... :-/


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## The wife (26 June 2013)

What a very interesting thread! Loved reading all these and find them fascinating.  Has anybody and experience of the below?  

Love the comment about Rainbow High and couldn't agree more, the 4YO is exactly the same, short, ugly duckling, well put together but a truly 'make me attitude'.

Primitive Proposal gelding: unbroken to date but so far an absolute gem, kind, genuine and actually a bit boring.  Extremely well put together, moves well and has a lovely attitude.  Heard they can be very sharp so this autumn will tell!

Stanhopes Diddicoy gelding: very sharp, holds a grudge And has a slight attitude and can be bad tempered.

Randi fillies : had 2 in for breaking and were polar opposites.  One very sharp, sensitive and a little argumentative.  The other a saint, as genuine as the day is long, superb jump but very big and slow maturing.

zahaar : Had 2 geldings for breaking.  Both absolute pigs. Bad tempered, mean spirited and naughty.  Horrible animals.

Kalanisi's : Very, Very sharp, say no more!

Aflora's : Known of lots, all very sweet, big, late developers, honest, genuine and will try their hearts out.

Regal Bronze, Fillies: very, very sharp and liable to temper tantrums.

Royal Blend : Absolute fruit loop!  Highly talented and workable but extremely sensitive.


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## Pigeon (26 June 2013)

I've heard that Jazz offspring are, well, sharp


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## ForeverBroke_ (26 June 2013)

I've got a KWPN, his grandfathers are both Lux and Ramiro. His dad being Niveau.  Got a cracking jump and is the most laid back thing in the world - although I often describe him as being a bit 'special needs.' Just finds life a bit difficult sometimes I think...


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## DabDab (26 June 2013)

This is an interesting thread - seeing as it is a couple of years old it would be interesting to hear if people's youngsters are turning out to be 'true to type'.

One line that I love is a racehorse line  - Elusive Quality/Elusive City - such sweethearts and fabulous conformation and movement (for a thoroughbred). From what I can gather though they are highly regarded in the racing industry too, so prizing them out of racing while they are young and fit is a bit of a game of luck.

I've ridden four Puissance's and owned one and they were all sharp as tacks and could buck for Ireland, but when you got them on side they would bust a gut for you. They were the type of horse that if you pointed them at the moon and asked them to jump it they would have had a bl***y good go! I would have another one in a heartbeat.

I've ridden a few Animo's but they were all very different, and I've heard a lot about other stallions but haven't had experience of enough of them to comment. Recently I've heard of a lot of quirky horses from the Bazzars lines.


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## Nightmare before Christmas (26 June 2013)

Harlequin Du Carel - All horses ive ridden by him have been sharp, scopey, careful, but do it my way type horses

Lord Zs that I have met have been a feisty but sweet

Manhatten - sharp but willing


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## Deleted member 104317 (26 June 2013)

Mine's Cruising and Clover Hill and is stupidly sharp/spooky - again, I'm no pro so not sure about the professional's horse thing! Used to get really excited when I saw other Cruising horses at big competitions (Master Crusoe!), until I realised that Cruising must have had gazillions of babies as there are so many by him... :O


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## ecrozier (26 June 2013)

Megan my boy's neighbour is cruising/clover hill. He's CH on his sire's side, cruising dam line. He is as laid back as they come but very talented jumping horse, jumping newcomers now with lightweight amateur lady rider, despite being 17hh and 7' long!


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## sussex brook (26 June 2013)

I have a Wellcome Flagmount gelding. I would describe him as somewhat opinionated but a great jumper and good to handle on the ground.


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## Deleted member 104317 (26 June 2013)

Megan my boy's neighbour is cruising/clover hill. He's CH on his sire's side, cruising dam line. He is as laid back as they come but very talented jumping horse, jumping newcomers now with lightweight amateur lady rider, despite being 17hh and 7' long!
		
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That's so cool! Is he careful? Ours took lots of time to get confident over the fillers but doesn't like to touch a pole


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## Mickyjoe (26 June 2013)

Megan97 said:



			Mine's Cruising and Clover Hill and is stupidly sharp/spooky - again, I'm no pro so not sure about the professional's horse thing! Used to get really excited when I saw other Cruising horses at big competitions (Master Crusoe!), until I realised that Cruising must have had gazillions of babies as there are so many by him... :O
		
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Master Crusoe is by Master Imp though! 

Out of a Cruising mare alright. :nod:


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## Deleted member 104317 (26 June 2013)

Oh yeah! Sorry, that's embarrassing, knew there was some Cruising in there somewhere!


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## gadetra (26 June 2013)

Do you find your Cruisings spooky? They can be a little spooky/looky. Ya gotta love the head/pink nose and neat little feet though! Talk about stamping his stock!


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## ecrozier (26 June 2013)

He's incredibly careful. He's gone up from BN to newcomers with barely a pole down anywhere. He's not spooky - but definitely stamped Clover Hill side, big bay with a white star, no little heads or pink noses there! Did have another friend with a Cruising gelding - more typey, but lethally sharp and she had to sell him on as was very amateur and he was a pro's ride!


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## Rebels (26 June 2013)

Kheleyf - bitey, naughty and very careful
Compton Place - kind, genuine, sometimes a bit dim but lovely people
Holy Roman Emperor - great in full work, pita if not! Like to be busy busy busy
Sir Percy- have the odd extra white round one eye often and seem kind people who try for you
That's all the ones I have seen lots of.


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## rachyblue (29 June 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			T I will say it's been my experience that these ' go to' inclinations do seem to run in families, more than complete temperaments. So two horses might have the same inclination but very different arousal thresholds.
		
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Agree on this one, I know the people who have my boy's full brother and they are very alike, mine is just a little easier going.

Funnily enough he is by Medoc, but everyone tells me he is very unlike most Medoc babies. He is however, to look at, a clone of his Mum who is by Regazzoni (Rubinstein).


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## Jatsar Equestrian (24 August 2013)

Hi I would love to hear about your Fleetwater Opposition baby??? Thanks
Monique


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## Mike007 (24 August 2013)

probably entirely lost the plot on this thread but you face a fence on any horse as you mean to jump it and evereythig else is nonsense. Breeding ,training , ++++.  Fence.. Heels ... jump.Coloured cob or high bred warmblooid ,its the same.


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## mbsports (26 August 2013)

No complaints Mine so bad lovely looking horse later on heard her almost killed someone so he was shot


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## tigger2 (27 August 2013)

Really interesting reading! Anyone know anything about the sires 'freestyle' or 'superstar w'? Freestyle is out of florestan I and superstar w is out of Voltaire.


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## NorthernDancer (4 April 2014)

Foxy1

Was this mare called Annie? If so, I own her now!! X


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## googol (5 April 2014)

Love this thread and know of / have heard of lots of stallions mentioned. It's interesting to hear about their offspring. I'm so not into breeding but I do think a well bred horse oozes a certain quality- hard to explain. Could be that I've convinced myself of that haha

My late mare was by master imp she was soo sweet and sensitive on the ground. Way too buzzy and talented for me under saddle tho but no nastiness. Also know 2 others by master imp. Both hugely talented. Not too quirky/sharp I don't think 

My boy is by grange bouncer. He has the pink on his face which I think is common for them. He can and would jump the moon and is a lovely mover. He is seriously clever and very cheeky. Quite mareish in the stable but soo easy and genuine under saddle. Love him to bits he is my absolute perfect horse and I trust him with my life

My friend has a cyrano gelding who is very backward unless he's spooking (which is a lot) when he becomes sharp and unpredictable. He has nice paces and is lovely to work around. 

My other friends gelding has clover hill bloodlines (I think) He is out of work ATM but is a lovely, quality all rounder

I know of a few limerick horses. All seriously sharp and with nastiness. 1 was so dangerous she used to kick the absolute **** out of anyone for no apparent reason.


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## Wundahorse (6 April 2014)

carterk3 said:



			Had a Dutch Gold mare once who was very pretty, moved beautifully but VERY quirky. Required very tactful riding and absolutely paranoid about having her mouth touched in the first 10mins of being ridden. Any other expereinces with those bloodlines?
		
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We have a 14 year old gelding by Dwilliam courage who was by Dutch courage. Super show jumper but can be lazy on the flat,and a little strong to bring in from the paddock at times.Can tank off when leading if something like the JCB upsets him.Oh but an absolute darling on the ground and in the stable.Loves to be massaged and scratched and really thrives on lots of tactile attention.Love him to bits.


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## rainer (6 April 2014)

Can't see all previous posts but does anyone have a horse by Axis? I know of two,a mare and a gelding who are lovely kind horses,beautiful honest heads, wonderful movement and easy to handle  would buy them in a heartbeat


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## ozpoz (6 April 2014)

Nightmare before Christmas said:



			Harlequin Du Carel - All horses ive ridden by him have been sharp, scopey, careful, but do it my way type horses

Lord Zs that I have met have been a feisty but sweet

Feisty and sweet, and the most intelligent horse I have ever known. 

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## oldie48 (6 April 2014)

I have a gelding by Amanti, he's lazy, opinionated and lacks generosity, such a shame as he's handsome, has lovely paces and is  very clever. I'm having a Lostock Huntsman horse vetted next week, anyone have any experience of this stallion?


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## Wundahorse (7 April 2014)

koeffee said:



			I had a lovely mare by GR sweet tempered, didnt like being overly fussed, jumped a bit, sensible to hack, but a pain in the arse to catch, nice mare though, but very short strided
		
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  	We have a wonderful Golden River son,the grey in my avatar.He is clever,kind and very easy,just wants to please.He is out of a SF/WB mare who has Animo lines,so not too sure about the Animo temperement.Our boy is good in all disciplines and fantastic to hack.My daughter competes him while i do the hacking.I love riding him and other than the odd buck,he is so uncomplicated.
  	What quirks does yours have;and pics please.
  	I understand Golden River had an excetional temperement and excelled in working hunter and SJ classes.Gather he won the workers at the Royal Dublin some years ago.Cannot find any photo&#39;s of GR though.


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## KarlyHT (8 April 2014)

I have a ghareeb mare and would agree with everyone's else's comments about them. Such an interesting thread!


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## TheMule (8 April 2014)

oldie48 said:



			I'm having a Lostock Huntsman horse vetted next week, anyone have any experience of this stallion?
		
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The 2 LHs I've known have been devils to break in, very girthy and sensitive but have made nice horses once over this


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## ellieseedhouse (23 January 2016)

I have an Erhaab offspring and I completely agree with everything you said! She was originally unaffectionate, strong willed, a kicker, aggressive and nappy, but with persistance she's turned out the be the most rewarding horse I've EVER worked with! I would definitely work with Erhaab progeny again. 
She's slightly more affectionate when she wants to be, still strong willed. Loving her life as a polo pony and much happier as I'm sure you'll agree they're quite 'hot' horses! 
Very tricky, but if managed well, VERY rewarding and will give you everything they've got! Very honest horses. 

What were the names of the ones you knew? I've got a jet black 9yr old my the name of Inky Miss (out of Scarlett Miss)


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## ellieseedhouse (23 January 2016)

Scarlett said:



			Yes, I got one at just turning 4, he was anxious, arrogant, nappy and generally difficult, but could be a lovely horse to ride as he was nimble and has a lovely pop in him. Very, very smart but not affectionate in the slightest. He needs very clear boundaries to keep him happy. When he's good though he is very, very good, just don't ask him to do anything outside his comfort zone! I wasn't experienced enough when I got him and we never got our act together, he taught my bf to ride though and is now owned by my friend who loves his quirks and is building up a fantastic relationship with him. He's 10 now and mellowed out a lot.

I know a mare who is at the same trainers my boy came from who is exactly the same, she's a decent hurdler but tricky. They manage her well however and she performs well in return.

I knew of a couple more in training who both have the same tricky but talented reputation. I'd have another as I think the right one could be a super horse, they would probably excel in a competative home. The ones I knew off have all be pretty tough too.
		
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I have an Erhaab offspring and I completely agree with everything you said! She was originally unaffectionate, strong willed, a kicker, aggressive and nappy, but with persistance she's turned out the be the most rewarding horse I've EVER worked with! I would definitely work with Erhaab progeny again. 
She's slightly more affectionate when she wants to be, still strong willed. Loving her life as a polo pony and much happier as I'm sure you'll agree they're quite 'hot' horses! 
Very tricky, but if managed well, VERY rewarding and will give you everything they've got! Very honest horses. 

What were the names of the ones you knew? I've got a jet black 9yr old my the name of Inky Miss (out of Scarlett Miss


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## blackhor2e (23 January 2016)

MBSJ said:



			Anyone had any experiences of Indoctro horses?
		
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I have a beautiful indoctro x goodtimes horse, he is small and very sharp. But a beautiful mover and has the 'I will do my best gene', an absolute saint on the ground. The only thing I will say is he can be incredibly sharp and a little bit explosive if given the chance, jumps like a stag though so we forgive hi . He's doing advanced / 3* this year.


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## blackhor2e (23 January 2016)

Daytona said:



			Pilot / Epilot difficult sensitive horses, you need the patience of a saint

I have a indoctro baby at the moment and it's fair to say I'm struggling with him.  Superb big jump though 

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Definitely keep the indoctro, they are worth their weight in gold in my opinion &#128513;


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## Pigeon (23 January 2016)

tonitot said:



			Most horses by One Cool Cat are scatty and a bit bad tempered, I've known and ridden a few, they're all the same! Horses by Kheyleyf are normally very cheeky and bitey but I like them  despite one kicking me in the head lol  Horses by Alke are normally lovely 

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 I've heard the Cats (Stormcat get) can be mean as anything! But my tb can be a little snarky and he's not bad tempered, just sensitive, so it could just be a case of very hot horses and people being in the wrong place at the wrong time! 

Also heard Jazz horses are hot but have ridden approximately one Jazz horse in my life and he was a saint! 

I would have thought that the mare would have more influence on temperament but I guess it's the age old nature vs nurture debate.


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## Mooseontheloose (23 January 2016)

measles said:



			Lux Z mares - sharp, quirky and often hugely talented. I've hard the geldings are generally easier. I've had three by ID stallion Star Kingdom and all have had super temps and been lovely movers.
		
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I'd agree with the Star Kingdom horses, very easy.


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## marotelle (24 January 2016)

Hi; I had a Ceasar van de Helle mare,she was huge, 18h, her dam only stood at 16h.This mare was very easy to break in ,had a super balanced canter,she tended to be a "diesel character" very laid back to begin with but got progresively strong and stressy.She was a lovely mare to deal with and a looker.Sadly she developed navicular at 11 and although it could be managed, we never bred from her.(her dam had 12 live foals from other studs, who were all sound,we never used Ceasar after that...).
 I also had a Chellano Z filly,one certainly did not go 'googoo ghagha with that one, she was quite vile, in fact we sold her on to a pro; she spent her time on her hind legs,but she could really jump.I don't know if Chellano's clone has the same mind as his sire; but I personally wouldn't touch it.


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## marotelle (24 January 2016)

Pilot was a very strong European jumping line,I have used one of his son's'Pavarotti'who also stood in the Van de Helle's stud.Pavarotti could be quite a handful; but he gave equally talented jumpers as he did dressage horses.I have two offsprings of Quavarotti(dressage)his Grandson.One was kept entire until he was 7;he had the most amazing temperement,the kindest nature and the most willing attitude for work,although a beautiful horse and good mover, he never made it to FEI level ; we had him cut so he could enjoy a happier life with other horses.His sister has the same kind nature but is alot sharper in her ridden work, she is  a v keen eventer, sometimes a little too brave for her own good; she retired sound at16 and is now in foal to 'finest'.Both Pavarotti and Quavarotti were known to throw 'hot' horses, but I was Lucky,in that both mine were level headed.



imafluffybunny said:



			I had a gelding who's dam sire was Pilot, extreemly sensitive and nappy. When he wanted to work he was amazing, rest of the time he was a pain in the A**!!
		
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## Pinkvboots (24 January 2016)

imafluffybunny said:



			I had a gelding who's dam sire was Pilot, extreemly sensitive and nappy. When he wanted to work he was amazing, rest of the time he was a pain in the A**!!
		
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I had a mare with pilot on her dam side she too was sensitive and could get stroppy in the school you had to ride her very quietly and ask her never tell her to do anything, she had the most loving temperament for a mare you could lie on the floor with her and cuddle her for ages she just loved people.


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## Irish gal (24 January 2016)

The King OF Diamonds had a haughty, arrogant streak. He was basically full of himself and liked to hold his head really high, so it was above other horses around him and from that elevated height he surveyed things. There's a great photo of him standing like that. I sometimes see the same stance in horses with his blood and many of them don't suffer fools and are not the most forgiving.


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## HashRouge (24 January 2016)

Countrychic said:



			Balou du rouet.   Talented and polite
		
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I know two geldings by Balou du Rouet and I totally agree. They are absolute superstars and real charmers. One is very quirky, which comes from his dam, but they are both delights to be around. I adore them.

The worst horse I've ever known temperament wise was by Warrant, so I'd be interested to hear if anyone has experience with any by him.


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## Irish gal (24 January 2016)

xLucyGx said:



			Does anyone have a horse by Olympic lux? My mares by him, she's a poppet and very talented but likes to do bare minimum if she can get away with it. 

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I had some foals by him, they were gorgeous. He is a lovely underrated stallion - gets really quite talented jumpers and eventers with nice temperaments. Quietest stallion you ever met. No banging on the stable door, you can walk into the stable and he will stand like a pony. Not like his neighbours Harlequin du Carel (Stunning, plenty of attitude) and Beowolfe x Cruising (dangerous, had stable lads quaking!)


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## catembi (24 January 2016)

My Cruising horse (in avatar) was very spooky - a real spooky-spinner.  He was 17 hh & would jump *anything* - I had never competed beyond British Novice on a ticket jumping, but with him in charge we got as far as 1 m 15 BS & were preparing to have a crack at Fox when he got sick & later died.

He was my horse of a lifetime, although he would also scare the living daylights out of me on a regular basis!  But when the bell went sj, he'd be off & would try & jump whatever caught his eye first.  It was like riding a rolls royce - so smooth & so much power...but you had to sit tight!

T x


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## StarlightMagic (24 January 2016)

Anyone have any horses by fraam? My boy is a real sweetheart can pull the odd face but he doesn't mean it, super temperament under saddle tries his heart out all the time


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## Emms321 (24 January 2016)

Great thread. I have one whose grand sire is Balougran Z. Good looking Chestnut and very bright. 
Anyone else got one?


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## dibbin (24 January 2016)

I have a Master Imp grandson (his sire is by MI out of a mare by Clover Hill), and bl**dy hell he's true to the "quirky but talented" byline! Totally switched on all the time, you can't take your eye off the ball or he'll whip out from under you. I bought him as a 6yo and he was wonderful, then became a nightmare almost overnight when he turned 7. He takes all of his confidence from his rider and worries about STUPID things - while ignoring genuinely scary things - but when he's moving properly he goes like a dream. Light in the hand, floats along like he's on springs, and so SO responsive. When you have his attention you have every single little bit of his attention; the trick has always been keeping it because he's got such a busy little brain! He's also the loveliest person to have around, he adores people and is just generally a delight to own and to handle.

On his bad days, he has me in tears. On his good days, I can fly.

I tried a mare by Ricardo Z (out of a mare by Touchdown) when I was horse hunting and she was just the most fantastic creature I have ever sat on.

My sister has a KoD great-grandson. He's generally lovely, but can be difficult to get going and is sometimes a bit of a thug on the ground. He's 17.2hh and has no issue pushing his weight around if he thinks he can get away with it.


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## xspiralx (25 January 2016)

I've got an ISH gelding that has KoD lines on his dam side. He's definitely quite arrogant, not super forgiving and doesn't suffer fools gladly. But he also has a very sensitive hysterical streak that I think comes more from his sire line which is Oldenburg/Selle Francais.


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## Tash88 (26 January 2016)

This thread is so interesting and it is great to hear some well-informed and authentic opinions on progeny from various stallions/lines. 

Does anyone have any opinion/experience on Stanhope Diddicoy-sired horses? I know he isn't as prolific as some of the others mentioned on the thread but thought it was worth asking. I met another SD gelding owner at a show a couple of years ago and it was interesting to see how similar our horses were in appearance and temperament.


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## Irish gal (26 January 2016)

Cruising horses are a bit notorious alright but he was apparently quite difficult himself. The girl who broke him said she spent most of her time on the ground - as in thrown there! I do know that his stallion son Beowulf is a nightmare. When the stable lads try to go into him they are greeted by the two front legs - they're scared of him. Also fertility in Cruising mares is not supposed to be the greatest.

Interesting about Cavalier Royales being tricky. He is the grand sire of two broodmares I have, by Garrison Royal, who are so quirky and funny. They don't walk anywhere only trot, especially if a little stressed. So instead of walking in a field to graze in another spot, they trot over there. Although it could be from the dam's side as she was known as 'the mad one' in her stud, and moved everywhere at speed! They also seem to get startled by invisible things, all the other horses will be totally chilled and they'll be staring at something and looking worried. They're lovely mares but a bit quirky!


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## Damnation (26 January 2016)

Gamebird said:



			My Mill Law's a thug! Extremely cheeky, don't leave him without a job for more than a couple of minutes or he'll find something to entertain himself. Quite sharp to ride at home but an utter pro to compete and a natural XC. I'd hesitate to say 'professional's horse' as I am far from a professional but I would say very much suited to a fairly intensive competitive program. No nastiness but a lot of joie de vivre and a total disrespect for your personal space, though this may have been his (lack of) upbringing .

Other Mill Laws that I know have certainly been best when kept occupied.

Anyone got any experience of Iroko or Voltaire/Furioso lines?
		
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I know the above was posted ages ago but my mare has Furoiso lines on her dams side (Sorry if its huge!). Very sweet mare, well put together, incredibly mannerly. However she worries about life, sharp to ride, can stress. Is this a common thing with Furoiso, Furoiso II types?


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## Luci07 (26 January 2016)

Damnation said:



			I know the above was posted ages ago but my mare has Furoiso lines on her dams side (Sorry if its huge!). Very sweet mare, well put together, incredibly mannerly. However she worries about life, sharp to ride, can stress. Is this a common thing with Furoiso, Furoiso II types?








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Furioso is known for having a good temperament. Having had a French Buffet gelding and then researching later...I would point the finger of blame at him. Mine was also very very sharp. Got fed up with it in the end as he was relentless. Nice on the ground, good jumper but took over reacting to a new level.


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## Damnation (26 January 2016)

Luci07 said:



			Furioso is known for having a good temperament. Having had a French Buffet gelding and then researching later...I would point the finger of blame at him. Mine was also very very sharp. Got fed up with it in the end as he was relentless. Nice on the ground, good jumper but took over reacting to a new level.
		
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Thank you Luci07, she is a fantastic mare and I did consider breeding from her but I didn't want to risk a foal that would self combust! 

I've never been able to find out much about French Buffet (barring he was a racehorse turned SJ'er) or what his breeding is like so its nice to find someone who knows about him!! (I know my mare is well bred down her dams side but no idea of her sire!)


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## Luci07 (27 January 2016)

Damnation said:



			Thank you Luci07, she is a fantastic mare and I did consider breeding from her but I didn't want to risk a foal that would self combust! 

I've never been able to find out much about French Buffet (barring he was a racehorse turned SJ'er) or what his breeding is like so its nice to find someone who knows about him!! (I know my mare is well bred down her dams side but no idea of her sire!)
		
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French Buffet stood in Holland and was used in the KWPN studbook. He also SJ'ed to GP level so had a good record. He went to Ireland when he was quite old so didn't sire much - maybe 3 years or so? He tends to throw stock which is short coupled and agile but as I said, sharp! Mine was a superb careful jumper once he got over his incredible loathing of fillers. That took forever to sort out and a lot of teeth grinding but once he got there he was superb. We felt he had been started badly over coloureds as was never a problem with XC. We did get there in the end but it was a lengthy job!


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## dibbin (27 January 2016)

Having now read the entire thread, it does appear I got a typical Master Imp ...


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## Damnation (28 January 2016)

Luci07 said:



			French Buffet stood in Holland and was used in the KWPN studbook. He also SJ'ed to GP level so had a good record. He went to Ireland when he was quite old so didn't sire much - maybe 3 years or so? He tends to throw stock which is short coupled and agile but as I said, sharp! Mine was a superb careful jumper once he got over his incredible loathing of fillers. That took forever to sort out and a lot of teeth grinding but once he got there he was superb. We felt he had been started badly over coloureds as was never a problem with XC. We did get there in the end but it was a lengthy job!
		
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Thats awesome, thank you Luci07, my mare's conformation is actually rather good (Hence breeding from her) but she is just such a worrier. She will jump anything and has jumped 1m30 with previous home. She was bred in Holland, and I don't know if she was roughtly broken in or what because she just panics under saddle so easily. No bucking, napping, spinning etc. But I CANNOT ride her with a whip. It took me 3 months to be able to lead her with one... At the age of 14 I doubt she is going to get much better


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## 4faults (28 January 2016)

Not read all replies but anyone else with a 'For Pleasure' baby? Had mine just under a year and he is wonderfully talented but pretty head strong and likes things his own way when ridden. Very sweet on the ground though

My Armitage/Quick Star/Pilot baby was sharp with a very active back end! Amazingly talented with lovely straight movement but came to me with a note that read 'Good luck,' however after gaining his trust that horse would walk through fire for you if you asked him to. Sadly lost him to colic a year ago today at age 5


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## ihatework (28 January 2016)

HashRouge said:



			I know two geldings by Balou du Rouet and I totally agree. They are absolute superstars and real charmers. One is very quirky, which comes from his dam, but they are both delights to be around. I adore them.

The worst horse I've ever known temperament wise was by Warrant, so I'd be interested to hear if anyone has experience with any by him.
		
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Balou du Rouet - This is what I like to hear!
I have one due in 10 weeks time!!


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## HashRouge (28 January 2016)

ihatework said:



			Balou du Rouet - This is what I like to hear!
I have one due in 10 weeks time!!
		
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I am ridiculously jealous haha! I honestly cannot emphasise enough how much I like both the ones I know and the younger one is the first thing I'd buy if I came into any money. They are both very talented and real stunners too. I adore them!

I hope you'll post pictures when yours arrives!


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## sz90168 (29 January 2016)

Damnation said:



			Thats awesome, thank you Luci07, my mare's conformation is actually rather good (Hence breeding from her) but she is just such a worrier. She will jump anything and has jumped 1m30 with previous home. She was bred in Holland, and I don't know if she was roughtly broken in or what because she just panics under saddle so easily. No bucking, napping, spinning etc. But I CANNOT ride her with a whip. It took me 3 months to be able to lead her with one... At the age of 14 I doubt she is going to get much better 

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I have got a mare sired by French Buffet and she is lovely. Very willing and sensible yet a little pocket rocket as she is very short coupled.


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## Goldenstar (29 January 2016)

dibbin said:



			Having now read the entire thread, it does appear I got a typical Master Imp ...
		
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Does he buck ?


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## dibbin (29 January 2016)

Goldenstar said:



			Does he buck ?
		
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He has done on occasion, I wouldn't say it's a habit though. It's only if he's upset/excited/impatient, and it's more of a little back hump than a proper buck. Sometimes he tips back on his haunches slightly first. He does absolutely massive twisty fly bucks on the lunge that I'd have no hope in hell of sitting to!


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## Esme (7 August 2018)

Zombie thread alert! Loved reading through this - can't remember how I stumbled across it now but has there been a more recent iteration? 

If any has experience of my boy's Slip Anchor (Shirley Heights, Mill Reef) line or relatives I'd love to hear!


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## Auslander (7 August 2018)

Esme said:



			Zombie thread alert! Loved reading through this - can't remember how I stumbled across it now but has there been a more recent iteration? 

If any has experience of my boy's Slip Anchor (Shirley Heights, Mill Reef) line or relatives I'd love to hear!
		
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I helped start a Slip Anchor filly many many years ago - she came to us as a 2yr old to be backed before going into training. Lovely little thing, who was a real character. We discovered very early on that if you rode up next to her and said "One, Two, Three, GO...", she'd squeal, and clear off broncing like a good'un. Never put a foot out of line at any other time!


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## Esme (7 August 2018)

Auslander said:



			I helped start a Slip Anchor filly many many years ago - she came to us as a 2yr old to be backed before going into training. Lovely little thing, who was a real character. We discovered very early on that if you rode up next to her and said "One, Two, Three, GO...", she'd squeal, and clear off broncing like a good'un. Never put a foot out of line at any other time!
		
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 Brilliant!

Mine is the most loving and wonderful person to be around, with (for better or worse!) personality in spades.


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## Mule (7 August 2018)

I have one by the tb Shareef. Has anyone else had any experience with Shareef horses?


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