# FAWC's Five Freedoms, and Horses



## Shilasdair (22 January 2008)

The Farm Animal Welfare Council (2008) lists the five freedoms as;
1. Freedom from Hunger and Thirst - by ready access to fresh water and a diet to maintain full health and vigour. 
2. Freedom from Discomfort - by providing an appropriate environment including shelter and a comfortable resting area. 
3. Freedom from Pain, Injury or Disease - by prevention or rapid diagnosis and treatment. 
4. Freedom to Express Normal Behaviour - by providing sufficient space, proper facilities and company of the animal's own kind. 
5. Freedom from Fear and Distress - by ensuring conditions and treatment which avoid mental suffering.

*'Stabled horses without turnout, and those turned out individually, do not enjoy the five freedoms, particularly numbers 4 and 5.'
Discuss 
S 
	
	
		
		
	


	



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## SpottedCat (22 January 2008)

Alternatively, horses which get beaten to a pulp by other horses, without exception, do not enjoy Number 5 unless they are given individual turnout.


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## Madam_max (22 January 2008)

Or ones that beat the others to a pulp as in Corroy's case.


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## Shilasdair (22 January 2008)

Freedom to express normal behaviour could include asserting dominance.
S


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## jumpthemoon (22 January 2008)

Depends on the horse IMO. Some horses are quite happy stabled 24/7, some are not. Also depends on the stabling - some stables allow for plenty of interaction with other horses. I do think they should be out of their stables for at least 2 hours a day though.


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## Shilasdair (22 January 2008)

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- some stables allow for plenty of interaction with other horses. 

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Define 'interaction'
S


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## jumpthemoon (22 January 2008)

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Freedom to express normal behaviour could include asserting dominance.
S 
	
	
		
		
	


	





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pts 2 &amp; 3 could apply to horses in fields with dominant horses who beat them up


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## jumpthemoon (22 January 2008)

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- some stables allow for plenty of interaction with other horses. 

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Define 'interaction'
S 
	
	
		
		
	


	





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You know the stables where they only have half walls, so can groom each other etc over the doors? That kind of interaction


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## Madam_max (22 January 2008)

Well yes there is that, but I am not sure their owners would be happy.  Anyhow, I used to be paranoid about turnout.  However I moved Corroy to a yard with loads of turnout, a 5 acre field with 1 other mare (she had enough room to run).  Corroy was really unhappy there and even started to weave when she was in and she is not a stressy horse.  I moved back to my original yard with not the best turnout (small paddocks and not much grass).  She has been in recently for about 2 weeks and actually couldn't care less.  She is much more relaxed at this yard.  So what we think is best for them isn't always the case.


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## Shilasdair (22 January 2008)

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Well yes there is that, but I am not sure their owners would be happy.  Anyhow, I used to be paranoid about turnout.  However I moved Corroy to a yard with loads of turnout, a 5 acre field with 1 other mare (she had enough room to run).  Corroy was really unhappy there and even started to weave when she was in and she is not a stressy horse.  I moved back to my original yard with not the best turnout (small paddocks and not much grass).  She has been in recently for about 2 weeks and actually couldn't care less.  She is much more relaxed at this yard.  So what we think is best for them isn't always the case. 

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How do you/we assess whether a horse is 'happy'?  
Perhaps she weaved when she was in as she enjoyed being out so much she exhibited locomotory stereotypies as a response?  But now going out is no fun....
S


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## Shilasdair (22 January 2008)

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- some stables allow for plenty of interaction with other horses. 

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Define 'interaction'
S 
	
	
		
		
	


	





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You know the stables where they only have half walls, so can groom each other etc over the doors? That kind of interaction 
	
	
		
		
	


	





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And is that the full expression of 'normal behaviour'?
S


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## pinkcatkin (22 January 2008)

Shilasdair you do like to open a can of worms dont you?!

Surely, when we keep horses in fields we are distorting their natural behaviour anyway, as in the wild they would be organised into their pecking order in the herd and the less dominant ones are able to get away from the dominant ones as they have unlimited space?

I am not advocating 24 hour stabling at all but I do sympathise with bullied horses when ultimately they cannot get away from their tormentors.


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## Madam_max (22 January 2008)

I knew you would say that  
	
	
		
		
	


	




  OK, maybe she's not 'happier' but she's more relaxed to ride and handle.  Oh and she was in a barn with bars in between and hated it and spent the whole time kicking the walls.  I think she likes her stable now as it is enclosed and she can go to the back and chill out, she really likes her own space.


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## fairhill (22 January 2008)

Are you bored S 
	
	
		
		
	


	




? 
I'm not a fan of individual turnout, or a complete lack of turnout, and can see where you're coming from... but then it's no fun for you if I agree... 
Where does riding them, and making them go round in silly circles, and over instead of round obstacles fit into to the 5 freedoms  
	
	
		
		
	


	




?


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## jumpthemoon (22 January 2008)

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- some stables allow for plenty of interaction with other horses. 

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Define 'interaction'
S 
	
	
		
		
	


	





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You know the stables where they only have half walls, so can groom each other etc over the doors? That kind of interaction 
	
	
		
		
	


	





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And is that the full expression of 'normal behaviour'?
S 
	
	
		
		
	


	





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No - but that's life I'm afraid! Who gets to live the perfect life? We can only provide a lifestyle as close as possible to a natural one - just because it's not 100% natural, doesn't mean it's cruel. 

Wild dogs don't go in crates, or get walked on leads, but no-one complains about that. Wild cats don't sleep 23hrs a day on a duvet in centrally heated accomodation! Does that mean it's cruel?


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## little_flea (22 January 2008)

If I was allowed to express what would be my normal behaviour, I would not go to work, I would sleep 12 hours a day, chose to sometimes not consider the needs and feelings of other people and drink 1 bottle of red wine every day!

So I agree with jumpthemoon here!


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## ihatework (22 January 2008)

Well my beautiful cripple soon isn't going to get the choice.
He will be going out on large acreage, lots of grass and equine company, natural shelter blah blah blah.

When he complains to me that I am not meeting his welfare needs, which he most certainly will at the first hint of a rain storm, I will be sure to remind him I am complying with The Farm Animal Welfare Council (2008) and that he is to just get on with things


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## xspiralx (22 January 2008)

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- some stables allow for plenty of interaction with other horses. 

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Define 'interaction'
S 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

You know the stables where they only have half walls, so can groom each other etc over the doors? That kind of interaction 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

And is that the full expression of 'normal behaviour'?
S 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

No - but that's life I'm afraid! Who gets to live the perfect life? We can only provide a lifestyle as close as possible to a natural one - just because it's not 100% natural, doesn't mean it's cruel. 

Wild dogs don't go in crates, or get walked on leads, but no-one complains about that. Wild cats don't sleep 23hrs a day on a duvet in centrally heated accomodation! Does that mean it's cruel? 

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I agree with this. No part of keeping animals as pets [which is essentially what horses are] is natural, not really. That doesn't necessarily mean though that the deviation is bad. A responsible owner will do their best to ensure their horse is happy and healthy, free from disease, hunger, thirst and distress. If a horse displayed signs of unhappiness from the conditions it was kept in, a good owner would try to remedy that issue. The fact something is not "free" does not necessarily follow that it is wrong.

Having said that, I believe that it is better to try and keep horses in as natural an environment as possible.


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## pinkcatkin (22 January 2008)

But that's what I do all the time.....


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## WishfulThinker (22 January 2008)

I just thought, see #4 the expressing normal behavior.  I take it these would not count when ridden?  As if so, then when we break in a horse to ride and do what we say, so as to be safe on the roads etc we are suppressing normal behavior - like say being scared of something big an noisy like say a truck,  But if we let them be scared of something big and noisy then we are a danger so and liable under that dangerous animals act.  So technically we are breaking a rule either way.


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## MizElz (22 January 2008)

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The Farm Animal Welfare Council (2008) lists the five freedoms as;
1. Freedom from Hunger and Thirst - by ready access to fresh water and a diet to maintain full health and vigour. 

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Oops....last night I couldnt be bothered to change Ellie's two (full) buckets of water which I had filled that morning.... 
	
	
		
		
	


	





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 2. Freedom from Discomfort - by providing an appropriate environment including shelter and a comfortable resting area. 

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Oops....stable sprung a leak the other day...though Ellie always lies down in her deep straw bed at night, so perhaps I am doing something right! 
	
	
		
		
	


	





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3. Freedom from Pain, Injury or Disease - by prevention or rapid diagnosis and treatment.

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Hmmm, think I pretty much obey that one...unless horse beating counts as 'pain'?  
	
	
		
		
	


	






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4. Freedom to Express Normal Behaviour - by providing sufficient space, proper facilities and company of the animal's own kind. 


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Ellie has only 5 chickens as company....along with just 1/2 acre of turnout....and has had for the past two years....I do, however, provide her with a scratching hand and a back upon which to reciprocate...does this count as 'proper facilities'?  
	
	
		
		
	


	





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5. Freedom from Fear and Distress - by ensuring conditions and treatment which avoid mental suffering.


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Oh dear, guess the horse beating had better stop pretty pronto then!  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 Also, I'm no longer sure whether hanging a Likit in her stable is correct practice; it causes her severe mental anxiety when no Likit remains..... 
	
	
		
		
	


	





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*'Stabled horses without turnout, and those turned out individually, do not enjoy the five freedoms, particularly numbers 4 and 5.'
Discuss 
S 
	
	
		
		
	


	



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Ellie has not had turnout for the past 2 weeks, due to the fact that I cannot get to the field without full-leg Wellies, and also due to the fact that all she would do is act like a wallowing hippo for two minutes, then squelch up and down screaming to be brought back in....she is also very much a lone horse. However she is 110% happier now than when we were on a yard; she no longer weaves, is far more 'in tune' with me, and has a far more chilled, happy outlook on life. So, she may not enjoy the five freedoms...but seeing as her life is obviously a happy one (and please dont question me on that; having known and loved her for 7 years, I do think I am qualified to judge whether she is happy or not!), I don't think I'm going to be fretting too much...


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## Shilasdair (22 January 2008)

Pinkweasel - can of worms....mmmm, I'm hungry now
Fairhill - riding them could be said to fulfill their instinct to roam over distances
Spiral - why is it acceptable not to meet some of the five freedoms, specifically 'company of the animal's own kind' but not others e.g. 'a diet to maintain full health and vigour'?
Oh, and Little_flea - you're a sloth!
S


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## SpottedCat (22 January 2008)

Shilasdair - I think you are misinterpreting some of the FWAC points - and I must at this point confess some insider knowledge having done some (pretty low level - 3rd year degree) research into wlfare in broiler chicken units. In said units, some hens show 'dominant' behaviour in the form of pecking other hens quite violently - causing the recipients to be in pain and distress. Therefore though the 'dominant' behaviour may be considered to be 'natural', it is not considered to be important to maintain it under the FWAC guidelines. Therefore the same could be said for horses which exhibit dominant behaviour in the same way.

Additionally - before everyone goes off on 'nothing is natural' speeches, these guidelines are deisgned to improve the quality of life for  *farmed* animals, not *wild* ones. Therefore the fact that they will not be living natural lives is implicit in the guidelines. Its about keeping them with a decent quality of life whilst still achieving our aims as human keepers!


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## JM07 (22 January 2008)

since when have Horses been defined as Farm Animals???

must have a word with my local council/DEFRA and enquire as to where my "perks" are....those same perks Farmers seem to be able to claim for their "Farm Animals"


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## MizElz (22 January 2008)

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since when have Hoses been defined as Farm Animals???



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My Hose isnt a farm animal...ok, it may resemble a snake (a very VERY long one) but I wouldnt class one of them as a farm animal either!


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## Shilasdair (22 January 2008)

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since when have Horses been defined as Farm Animals???

must have a word with my local council/DEFRA and enquire as to where my "perks" are....those same perks Farmers seem to be able to claim for their "Farm Animals"






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All those beautiful British beaches are costing YOU money.
S


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## JM07 (22 January 2008)

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since when have Hoses been defined as Farm Animals???



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My Hose isnt a farm animal...ok, it may resemble a snake (a very VERY long one) but I wouldnt class one of them as a farm animal either!  
	
	
		
		
	


	




















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OMG...put away the sharp objects..JM has made a faux pas......


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## MizElz (22 January 2008)




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## Shilasdair (22 January 2008)

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OMG...put away the sharp objects..JM has made a faux pas......






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That's hardly new or unusual.... 
	
	
		
		
	


	




S


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## jen1 (22 January 2008)

Me too but make that Rosé!!


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## Tia (23 January 2008)

Interestingly (or not as the case may be) horses are classed as farm animals over here; however we do not receive any "perks" like other farmed animal owners. 

All of my horses live with the Five Freedoms, including your other 2 added on Freedoms for good measure  
	
	
		
		
	


	




.  Do I get a great big gold star??


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## mrhsaddler (23 January 2008)

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since when have Horses been defined as Farm Animals??? 

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This is an interesting one, if you put a planning application in to the local council for a barn, it costs less than if it is a stable, I made that mistake I submitted an application for an agriculteral building but put the word stable on one part of it, so had to pay £120 instead of £40 back in 2001, so in the eyes of the district council horses are domestic animals.

BUT since DEFRA dictated that all equines must have a  passport, and you must state whether your horse is to opt out of the meat chain, therefore they have become farm animals.

It is about time the government got its act together and stated once and for all, which side of the line horses are on.


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