# Olympic Rollkur rider Patrik Kittel



## MissMincePie&Brandy (2 August 2012)

For the sake of Patrick Kittel's horse....
if you are going to watch the dressage at Grenwich tomorrow, please turn your back on rollkur rider Patrik Kittel, who rides at 2.44. Please object in some way. Leave the stands, turn your back, or simply stay quiet at the end.


----------



## perfect11s (2 August 2012)

MissMincePie&Brandy said:



			For the sake of Patrick Kittel's horse....
if you are going to watch the dressage at Grenwich tomorrow, please turn your back on rollkur rider Patrik Kittel, who rides at 2.44. Please object in some way. Leave the stands, turn your back, or simply stay quiet at the end. 





Click to expand...

 Yes Hatefull 3rd rate rider this  abusive  turd deseves a good beating .... yes hope spectators will do the above  well said...


----------



## Pale Rider (3 August 2012)

Excellent idea, if you are there, turn your back on rollkur.


----------



## Wizzkid (3 August 2012)

Good idea


----------



## Jazz1 (3 August 2012)

was it just me or when Anky finished her test yesterday - she punched the air expecting massive immediate applause - yet it didnt really happen!!


----------



## vic07 (3 August 2012)

I was watching yesterday. The crowd didn't react to anky the way they did 4 yrs ago as she isn't the podium topper she used to be..... Not sure it was to do with the rk issue!


----------



## Trolley Hunter Type (3 August 2012)

Post this all over twitter and facebook. I would love to see a silent crowd or even better one that turned away. Sadly and realistically I dont think it will happen :-(


----------



## sister duke (3 August 2012)

why is this being allowed??????!!!!!! this is photographic evidence!!!!!!!!!! what are the officials doing about it??????


----------



## M_G (3 August 2012)

A friend tweeted Horse & Hound and asked them to back our 'Turn your back on rollkur' campaign, and there response was laughable:
"We will not encourage this unsportsmanlike behaviour" 

Rollkur is so sportsman like.. I will not be buying H&H again and I know of many more who are canceling their subscriptions...horse and hound used to be cutting edge sadly it is no more


----------



## Mondy (3 August 2012)

M_G said:



			A friend tweeted Horse & Hound and asked them to back our 'Turn your back on rollkur' campaign, and there response was laughable:
"We will not encourage this unsportsmanlike behaviour" 

Rollkur is so sportsman like.. I will not be buying H&H again and I know of many more who are canceling their subscriptions...horse and hound used to be cutting edge sadly it is no more
		
Click to expand...


I am not surprised that H&H choose a perverse 'sportsmanship' - with that stance they certainly cannot be considered supporters of horsemanship.


----------



## Starzaan (3 August 2012)

I have just cancelled my subscriptions to both H&H and Eventing Magazines after reading their response to the above.


----------



## M_G (3 August 2012)

Starzaan said:



			I have just cancelled my subscriptions to both H&H and Eventing Magazines after reading their response to the above.
		
Click to expand...

If enough of us kick up a stink then something has to be done.. Thank you Starzaan from all the horses who suffer this abuse


----------



## bexj (3 August 2012)

Who else competing is a known Rolkur user apart from this foul individual?


----------



## Jnhuk (3 August 2012)

bexj said:



			Who else competing is a known Rolkur user apart from this foul individual?
		
Click to expand...


Another one from a photo who presume dutch rider Patrick van deer Meer & Uzzo 

http://www.st-georg.de/bilder_popup.php?objekt_id=13009&next=12


----------



## Munchkin (3 August 2012)

The FEI can police this at shows, but not at private yards.

However, horses who have been trained in Rollkur tend to stand out due to their flashy (and technically incorrect!) movement. Until judges start to lower marks for this, nothing will change, because everyone wants to be at the top of the sport.

ETA Laughable response from the FEI, also:

The FEI &#8207;@myfei_home
Aware of concern about some Dressage training methods. Photos can be misleading. Stewards monitor all training sessions. We&#8217;re on the case.


----------



## Munchkin (3 August 2012)

bexj said:



			Who else competing is a known Rolkur user apart from this foul individual?
		
Click to expand...

Adelinde Cornelissen

Patrick van der Meer

Edward Gal


----------



## Lady La La (3 August 2012)

Any comments to H&H article would be much appreciated, I'm sure  
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/olympics2012/7631/313649.html


----------



## Mondy (3 August 2012)

bexj said:



			Who else competing is a known Rolkur user apart from this foul individual?
		
Click to expand...


Anky van Grunsven
Adelinde Cornelissen
Edward Gal
Hans Peter Minderhoud
Andreas Helgstrand
Patrick van der Meer
Michal Rapcewicz
Lyndal Oatley

ANYBODY trained by Sjef Janssen


----------



## Lilly79 (3 August 2012)

bexj said:



			Who else competing is a known Rolkur user apart from this foul individual?
		
Click to expand...

I think the better question is: Who isn't?

Same as for the show jumpers: Who doesn't train 'behind closed doors' before shows?
And what about the way tennessee walking horses are trained (this really is the worst animal cruelty I have ever seen, just disgusting what they do)? Or western horses?

Don't get me wrong i'm not saying it's ok what they are doing, but this is where the sport is going, it's all about money and success and not about the most important part of our sport, the horse.


----------



## Munchkin (3 August 2012)

Lilly79 said:



			Same as for the show jumpers: Who doesn't train 'behind closed doors' before shows?
.
		
Click to expand...

Not so much of a problem anymore, thank goodness.


----------



## Lilly79 (3 August 2012)

Munchkin said:



			Not so much of a problem anymore, thank goodness.
		
Click to expand...

I don't agree. It's still very much a problem, people are just more careful and make sure the doors are closed properly...


----------



## scotlass (3 August 2012)

Jazz1 said:



			was it just me or when Anky finished her test yesterday - she punched the air expecting massive immediate applause - yet it didnt really happen!!
		
Click to expand...

My thoughts were that it was a spontaneous reaction out of relief - her husband Sjef Janssen (also commented on in a later post about Rollkur) - was taken ill just before she was due to compete.   He had a brain tumour removed last year and has been taken ill with an viral infection, as although the tumour was benign, it may well have left him with low immunity.

BTW - Thought Charlotte and Valegro were brilliant


----------



## Trolley Hunter Type (3 August 2012)

PK is up next. It will be interesting to watch the crowds reaction.


----------



## amage (3 August 2012)

So I've just switched on tv....have crowd been silent for every rider coming in or is it just for this muppet??


----------



## Munchkin (3 August 2012)

I love that the horse just put its chin on its chest and refused to move when he asked it to rein back.


----------



## amage (3 August 2012)

Munchkin said:



			I love that the horse just put its chin on its chest and refused to move when he asked it to rein back.
		
Click to expand...

Very disappointed that Judy has just blatantly covered it up though....


----------



## Trolley Hunter Type (3 August 2012)

Munchkin said:



			I love that the horse just put its chin on its chest and refused to move when he asked it to rein back.
		
Click to expand...

Im not the only one that noticed that little bit of irony then? Just as the commentator remarked that this horse always has his head low as well.


----------



## Jazz1 (3 August 2012)

very telling test isnt it - horse puts itself into rollkur when asked to go backwards!!!


----------



## Boxers (3 August 2012)

When the camera scanned the crowe, I didn't see anyone standing with backs turned.  Perhaps the message hasn't got through, and we must remember that some of the crowd won't be 'horsey' necessarily.


----------



## Munchkin (3 August 2012)

She keeps hammering home the point about him being low in the frame/behind the vertical.

If this scores higher than the Luso, that proves that names score percentages in this game.


----------



## Mondy (3 August 2012)

On the forehand ALL the time.

'Low in the frame' - they do have a nonsense term for every aspect bad/wrong riding, don't they?


----------



## MerrySherryRider (3 August 2012)

Will no one from FEI, olympic organisers, judges and commentators speak up for Scandic ?

Poor horse.


----------



## SusannaF (3 August 2012)

Sadly my daydream about Scandic pulling a "Ginger in Black Beauty" and going apeshit were not fulfilled


----------



## rambling (3 August 2012)

Some sort of interaction around the bitting steward PK and the groom.  Anyone.?


----------



## littlenordic (3 August 2012)

I missed it! Saw him come out and he didnt look happy! What happened?


----------



## Trolley Hunter Type (3 August 2012)

I just rewound the live feed, no he didnt look happy at the bitting steward at all.


----------



## SusannaF (3 August 2012)

Munchkin said:



			She keeps hammering home the point about him being low in the frame/behind the vertical.

If this scores higher than the Luso, that proves that names score percentages in this game.
		
Click to expand...

What did he get?


----------



## Munchkin (3 August 2012)

Argh she was still hyperflexing on her way into the ring!  Pics can be deceiving eh, FEI?


----------



## jessdarcy (3 August 2012)

How is any of this being allowed?!?!?


----------



## SusannaF (3 August 2012)

Munchkin said:



			Argh she was still hyperflexing on her way into the ring!  Pics can be deceiving eh, FEI?
		
Click to expand...

Tug, tug, tug, tug, tug.


----------



## SusannaF (3 August 2012)

Also hesitant with the rein back!


----------



## Kiristamm (3 August 2012)

Was it just me or was Pazrzival hyperflexing into the ring?


----------



## Katikins (3 August 2012)

Kiristamm said:



			Was it just me or was Pazrzival hyperflexing into the ring?
		
Click to expand...

He most definitely was.  I was amazed at the blatant use of this technique at an Olympics!!


----------



## Honeylight (3 August 2012)

I'm really disappointed some of the riders whose horses have clearly been trained in this way got high marks.
In the commentary it was mentioned the Dutch & Polish riders had been eliminated in a previous competition due to "welfare issues". Was this Rolkur?
The Dutch rider's horse was over bent during the test but still scored highly. Why?


----------



## Miss L Toe (3 August 2012)

This is what I can't understand, if the head has to be not beyond the vertical, why are they riding this way all the time, risking penalties, well presumably they are not being penalised.
The vertical is 90 degrees, and very few are one this.


----------



## Freddie19 (3 August 2012)

M_G said:



			A friend tweeted Horse & Hound and asked them to back our 'Turn your back on rollkur' campaign, and there response was laughable:
"We will not encourage this unsportsmanlike behaviour" 

Rollkur is so sportsman like.. I will not be buying H&H again and I know of many more who are canceling their subscriptions...horse and hound used to be cutting edge sadly it is no more
		
Click to expand...

Cancelled my subscription some time ago, its going downhill all the time.  confirmed their stance this week.....


----------



## Kiristamm (3 August 2012)

Miss L Toe said:



			This is what I can't understand, if the head has to be not beyond the vertical, why are they riding this way all the time, risking penalties, well presumably they are not being penalised.
The vertical is 90 degrees, and very few are one this.
		
Click to expand...

I second this. I am also confused why this is not picked up.


----------



## elaineh (3 August 2012)

Horrendous, have shared.


----------



## HashRouge (3 August 2012)

I just don't understand why these riders score so highly, but then again I prefer the tests that look effortless and natural, like the Portuguese pair


----------



## starryeyed (3 August 2012)

I wasn't able to watch the coverage of it & can't find anywhere to watch it online but have seen a few pictures on my facebook and it's just awful  I don't understand how they can just get away with this, poor horses.


----------



## Marydoll (3 August 2012)

HashRouge said:



			I just don't understand why these riders score so highly, but then again I prefer the tests that look effortless and natural, like the Portuguese pair
		
Click to expand...

Yes this test was beautifully carried out, a joy to watch and criminally low marked imo


----------



## sister duke (3 August 2012)

oh COME ON horse and stupid hound!!!!!!!! if that response quoted earlier is correct youre doing ALL of us a diservice!!!!!! a few horrid people aside WE DONT DO ROLLKUR OVER HERE!!!!!!! AND WE DONT WANT TO SEE IT AT OUR OLYMPICS!!!!!!! well i dont anyway and im sure im not alone. what can be done though? who do we complain to? about horse and hounds response as well as this hideous practice? 

im so angry that the "top selling equestrian magazine" of the host country should turn a blind eye to this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! shame on you!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Renvers (3 August 2012)

just caught up with all of this - been at aston le walls (no rollkur in sight there  ) can't believe this response and the inference it is a single photo and we shouldn't regard what it shows!

Not sure I want to watch all the tests now if they are like that, can i ask what apart from Team GB tests are worth watching, was Fuego good?


----------



## thespanishmane (3 August 2012)

Was there today.  All very quiet when he entered the arena, & pretty quiet when he exited.  He did a big wave of triumph but no one was taking a lot of notice! Fuego was delightful!.

A good day but lots of busy hands and concrete riding.

 Charlotte a different kettle of fish entirely!


----------



## Stilldreamin' (4 August 2012)

Adelinde Cornelissen's test on Parcival was horrible to watch and it is a travesty that she got 80% plus. As soon as she entered the arena the horse's head was cranked into his chest and she never got off his mouth for a second. 

The ugly face of dressage, when compared to the lovely flowing tests of, well, our British riders really!


----------



## Katikins (4 August 2012)

Stilldreamin' said:



			Adelinde Cornelissen's test on Parcival was horrible to watch and it is a travesty that she got 80% plus. As soon as she entered the arena the horse's head was cranked into his chest and she never got off his mouth for a second. 

The ugly face of dressage, when compared to the lovely flowing tests of, well, our British riders really!
		
Click to expand...

I totally agree... I thought both horse and rider looked tense the whole way through.  Not even comparable to the harmony that Charlotte and Valegro have together.


----------



## Stilldreamin' (4 August 2012)

Just posted on oither thread but:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/...video/p00w305c

Adelinde Cornelissen makes her entrance at 4.16.39.

Horse is hyperflexed from get go.


----------



## Stilldreamin' (4 August 2012)

Shots of what I mean:

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.4335149866245.2176732.1512297978&type=3&l=fcb43e0706


----------



## Dovorian (4 August 2012)

From comments made about the horses' way of going, rollkur doesn't work! Frame too low, reinback issues etc etc.

Is it only intended to produce the 'extravagant' movement at the expense of the overall outline?

Would be grateful for an expert explanation.


----------



## ester (4 August 2012)

Just watched both tests.. adelinde was ridic, I'm not sure sawing your horses mouth with a horizontal curb in front of the judges box is a great advertisement.. and love that Mike then choose to mention welfare concerns! 

Its great that these horses can now stand still just can't reinback  

I do feel a bit for the judges though re scandic's test I watched fuego previously and (although he is v. 'necky') was btv as much as scandic was and they can only judge what is in front of them. Though I'd have dropped a mark for every movement for adelinde after her entry display


----------



## sbloom (4 August 2012)

Dovorian said:



			From comments made about the horses' way of going, rollkur doesn't work! Frame too low, reinback issues etc etc.

Is it only intended to produce the 'extravagant' movement at the expense of the overall outline?

Would be grateful for an expert explanation.[/QUOTE

There is a ton of information online about rollkur, the whys and wherefores, rather than turning this into a "why rollkur" bunfight .  What REALLY annoys me is that the resulting work is rewarded - the FEI rules themselves don't actually say that the horse should be on the vertical, they say the face should be in FRONT of the vertical, so many have forgotten that.  A recent change means that ON the vertical is okay for piaffe, but it didn't used to be, and, to me, is a reflection of the popularity of this type of training - including the grey area of low, deep and round.
		
Click to expand...


----------



## KingfisherBlue (4 August 2012)

Have just added my voice to this petition:

http://no-rollkur.com/

Also added my displeasure to the FEI FB page.


----------



## attheponies (4 August 2012)

Also just signed - let's hope some action is taken.


----------



## HappyHooves (4 August 2012)

KingfisherBlue said:



			Have just added my voice to this petition:

http://no-rollkur.com/

Also added my displeasure to the FEI FB page.
		
Click to expand...

Could this be started again as a separate thread since some may not bother to read this thread again as its so long or indeed maynot know about the petition?


----------



## theopuppy (4 August 2012)

I am shocked to se the picture of PK and also the list of other riders who use RK. I am staggered to see Edward gal on that list...

It seems that all bodies try to turn a blind eye to horse welfare.A post on PK on the BD forum was removed!!They are all a bunch of hypocrites. Whats it all about.. I really don't know anymore??

It seems the horse is the least important creature in this equation.. winning at all costs seems to be the thing,

Unfortunately I have also just seen Christian Ahlmann stike his horse and sock it in the teeth when it had a double down in the SJ. If I had been there I would have taken a whip to the rider!God if he does this in public.. what does he do behind the scenes??


----------



## Stilldreamin' (4 August 2012)

theopuppy said:



			Unfortunately I have also just seen Christian Ahlmann stike his horse and sock it in the teeth when it had a double down in the SJ. If I had been there I would have taken a whip to the rider!God if he does this in public.. what does he do behind the scenes??
		
Click to expand...

Is that the one where it was his error anyway for not making up his mind on a stride and he was just expecting the horse to manage? Poor sod was doing its best!


----------



## theopuppy (4 August 2012)

HappyHooves said:



			Could this be started again as a separate thread since some may not bother to read this thread again as its so long or indeed maynot know about the petition?
		
Click to expand...

Can someone paste this onto the other thread re 'Rolkur , what can we do',, as I don't know how to.


----------



## micramadam (4 August 2012)

Mondy said:



			Anky van Grunsven
Adelinde Cornelissen
Edward Gal
Hans Peter Minderhoud
Andreas Helgstrand
Patrick van der Meer
Michal Rapcewicz
Lyndal Oatley

ANYBODY trained by Sjef Janssen
		
Click to expand...

Just the tip of the iceberg!


----------



## lula (4 August 2012)

Stilldreamin' said:



			Is that the one where it was his error anyway for not making up his mind on a stride and he was just expecting the horse to manage? Poor sod was doing its best!
		
Click to expand...

i saw that. think i heard a gasp of disapproval from the crowd when he struck the horse too. It was so obviously a rider error. Very bad sportsmanship

im another whose dismayed to hear the likes of Edward Gal using Rollkur 

For god's sake, if we have a rider of the caliber who produced and rode the great Totilas to such World acclaim using such a training method on his horses it seems the whole dressage world is going to hell in a handcart in Europe.


----------



## Stilldreamin' (4 August 2012)

lula said:



			i saw that. think i heard a gasp of disapproval from the crowd when he struck the horse too. It was so obviously a rider error. Very bad sportsmanship
		
Click to expand...


Yep heard the gasp too and good for them.


----------



## ElphabaFae (4 August 2012)

Totilas new rider uses Rollkur to train him....Scroll down for photos in this link http://www.tackntails.com/2012/04/totillas-they-may-have-banned-pictures.html


----------



## micramadam (4 August 2012)

ElphabaFae said:



			Totilas new rider uses Rollkur to train him....Scroll down for photos in this link http://www.tackntails.com/2012/04/totillas-they-may-have-banned-pictures.html

Click to expand...

. 

Yep, because 'The Rat' can't ride! Totilas hates him. 
He's always had mummy to buy his way onto top rides.


----------



## sbloom (4 August 2012)

But none of them call it Rollkur, they would all deny using it.  There is a nearly 30 year history of its development, this time around, and Anky was the main proponent of it in the late 80s and 90s.  But when cornered Sjef called it "low deep and round" and said it was not Rollkur, so it all became a grey area.  Edward Gal rode with Anky for many years and rode in RK, all the horses over 6 years old in training at her yard were/are ridden this way, but because they call it LDR, and the FEI have been bamboozled into saying that their version does NOT use force (no, just a slow drip drip of pressure over years and years) it is acceptable, and the grey area persists.

Until the results are penalised in the ring, it will all continue.


----------



## lula (4 August 2012)

sbloom said:



			But none of them call it Rollkur, they would all deny using it.  There is a nearly 30 year history of its development, this time around, and Anky was the main proponent of it in the late 80s and 90s.  But when cornered Sjef called it "low deep and round" and said it was not Rollkur, so it all became a grey area.  Edward Gal rode with Anky for many years and rode in RK, all the horses over 6 years old in training at her yard were/are ridden this way, but because they call it LDR, and the FEI have been bamboozled into saying that their version does NOT use force (no, just a slow drip drip of pressure over years and years) it is acceptable, and the grey area persists.

Until the results are penalised in the ring, it will all continue.
		
Click to expand...

dont understand how a horse can open and use its shoulder properly when schooled LDR anyway.
How can it possibly do when its head is glued between its forelegs?

all seems a bit of a contradiction to me but perhaps the exponents would just say im not advanced enough to understand it


----------



## galaxy (4 August 2012)

ElphabaFae said:



			Totilas new rider uses Rollkur to train him....Scroll down for photos in this link http://www.tackntails.com/2012/04/totillas-they-may-have-banned-pictures.html

Click to expand...

That is because he had been trained that way by Edward Gal and the poor animal knows no different.


----------



## lula (4 August 2012)

="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zo...om/watch?v=Zo8W2fUjdM4&feature=watch_response

Patrick Kittel on the same stallion, Scandic warming up before a show in 2009.

poor bloody horse.


----------



## Marydoll (5 August 2012)

I never got all the hype over totilas, imo he doesnt move correctly when ridden, but is so flashy, so all the judges love him, i much prefer Rubi .


----------



## Keen (5 August 2012)

Stilldreamin' said:



			Adelinde Cornelissen's test on Parcival was horrible to watch and it is a travesty that she got 80% plus. As soon as she entered the arena the horse's head was cranked into his chest and she never got off his mouth for a second. 

The ugly face of dressage, when compared to the lovely flowing tests of, well, our British riders really!
		
Click to expand...

I thought Richard Davidson's horse looked hauled about and unhappy at times ... but I didn't watch many of the other competetors and know nothing about the sport at that level, so am probably not well placed to judge.


----------



## Marydoll (5 August 2012)

Keen said:



			I thought Richard Davidson's horse looked hauled about and unhappy at times ... but I didn't watch many of the other competetors and know nothing about the sport at that level, so am probably not well placed to judge.
		
Click to expand...

I dont know a lot about dressage at that level, but i can still tell if a horse is tense, and a sock in the teeth is the same at any level tbh


----------



## Keen (5 August 2012)

Keen said:



			I thought Richard Davidson's horse looked hauled about and unhappy at times ... but I didn't watch many of the other competetors and know nothing about the sport at that level, so am probably not well placed to judge.
		
Click to expand...

*competitors



marydoll said:



			I dont know a lot about dressage at that level, but i can still tell if a horse is tense, and a sock in the teeth is the same at any level tbh
		
Click to expand...


Yeah, I take your point.


----------



## theopuppy (5 August 2012)

Keen said:



			I thought Richard Davidson's horse looked hauled about and unhappy at times ... but I didn't watch many of the other competetors and know nothing about the sport at that level, so am probably not well placed to judge.
		
Click to expand...

Didn't bother to watch him. I was put off by the fact he filed some sort of lawsuit when he didn't get into the european team .I guess he felt the selectors didn't know their job but it seemed a bit unsporting at the time.. however I don't have the true facts.It wouldn't suprise me if he got the individual place just to pacify him. 

IMHO he doesn't ride as effortlessly as some other british riders and to me he isn't a pleasure to watch.


----------



## christine48 (5 August 2012)

To be honest there are a lot of show jumpers who use draw reins in this way too.


----------



## Mondy (5 August 2012)

Keen said:



			I thought Richard Davidson's horse looked hauled about and unhappy at times ... but I didn't watch many of the other competetors and know nothing about the sport at that level, so am probably not well placed to judge.
		
Click to expand...

Well spotted. Richard Davison is, of course, one of the most active defenders of 'LDR', ie. the politically correct term for rollkur. 

I also absolutely agree about the travesty that was Cornelissen. Considered alongside the low score for the correct Rubi it indicates that something is very rotten indeed in the state of dressage. It must be so incredibly frustrating for the few who try to ride according to the rules of dressage and the rules of biomechanics.


----------



## Mondy (5 August 2012)

theopuppy said:



			Unfortunately I have also just seen Christian Ahlmann stike his horse and sock it in the teeth when it had a double down in the SJ. If I had been there I would have taken a whip to the rider!God if he does this in public.. what does he do behind the scenes??
		
Click to expand...

Yes, and it is disturbing too that nobody commented upon - not the TV-commentators, not the news reports, not the ringside stewards...

Clearly, this is another industry that cannot be self-regulating. 

RE: Edward Gal, there is a considerable number of videos of him riding Gribaldi in Rollkur on youtube.


----------



## cefyl (5 August 2012)

Mondy said:



			Well spotted. Richard Davison is, of course, one of the most active defenders of 'LDR', ie. the politically correct term for rollkur. 

I also absolutely agree about the travesty that was Cornelissen. Considered alongside the low score for the correct Rubi .
		
Click to expand...

Cornelissen's ride made me cringe, appalling.


----------

