# Lame... PLEASE look (pics inc) farrier issue?



## L&B (24 October 2012)

I have had my TB a little over 6 weeks now & after his second shoeing he is lame.

I had him shod all around after him struggling a little with the increased hacking we had been doing - so you might expect after months of not having shoes on his backs (and then only racing plates) he might be a little ouchy or feel strange until he got used... But it's his front right which seems to be causing him grief.
I got the farrier back out the following day, fairly knarked that he had seemingly lamed him & he took a very careful look - said there was no sign of abscess, no sign of nail bind. He re-checked as I had, for swelling, increased pulse & heat -- none! Said the only thing he could suggest was that he had taken a LOT of toe off, and perhaps he was feeling a little footsore...

A week later & he is STILL lame.
I have been through every emotion & I have tried everything I know how to - tomorrow I will (of course) be calling the vets, but until then I was wondering if anyone could offer any stories of anything similar, or any moral support, or even suggestions as to what's gone wrong.

He DOES have typical TB feet; long toe, low heel.
He is bobbing & clearly lame on the hard in walk and outright refuses to trot.
In the sand school however he is short but better in walk & will trot when pushed, but again bobs and struggles...

Here are pics of his feet currently:


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## Shysmum (24 October 2012)

no pics yet ?

Did you have him vetted ?  i think the first plan of action has to be the vet, and a full lameness work up. It may be nothing to do with his feet - and riding him could be bringing up an issue ?


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## Echo Bravo (24 October 2012)

Sorry but no pics,but you could have his shoes taken off,tub his feet and try again.


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## L&B (24 October 2012)

Oh no  I can't get the pics to load... Am I doing something wrong?? Can anyone help? (first post, sorry!)


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## L&B (24 October 2012)

shysmum said:



			no pics yet ?

Did you have him vetted ?  i think the first plan of action has to be the vet, and a full lameness work up. It may be nothing to do with his feet - and riding him could be bringing up an issue ?
		
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Sorry just to clarify, not been riding him. Everything I've done since he's been lame has been from the ground... I wouldn't do that to him


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## memenom (24 October 2012)

you should take him to the vet for an x ray. my horse kept being lame and nobody know why until the x ray when we found out that his pedal bone was too low and this was stretching his tendons. He's now on remedial shoeing


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## rema (24 October 2012)

The easiest way to upload photo's is onto Photobucket...then just copy and paste the IMG code..


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## L&B (24 October 2012)

rema said:



			The easiest way to upload photo's is onto Photobucket...then just copy and paste the IMG code..
		
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I will try this THANKYOU!


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## L&B (24 October 2012)




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## Oberon (24 October 2012)

Deleted


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## L&B (24 October 2012)

Jesus Christ that's huge... Never mind, you get the point! Lol...


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## mole (24 October 2012)

have you painted that red on the frog?


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## Echo Bravo (24 October 2012)

Have his shoe taken off his foot looks bruised but that could be the photo.


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## Oberon (24 October 2012)

L&B said:



			I have had my TB a little over 6 weeks now & after his second shoeing he is lame.

I had him shod all around after him struggling a little with the increased hacking we had been doing - so you might expect after months of not having shoes on his backs (and then only racing plates) he might be a little ouchy or feel strange until he got used... But it's his front right which seems to be causing him grief.
I got the farrier back out the following day, fairly knarked that he had seemingly lamed him & he took a very careful look - said there was no sign of abscess, no sign of nail bind. He re-checked as I had, for swelling, increased pulse & heat -- none! Said the only thing he could suggest was that he had taken a LOT of toe off, and perhaps he was feeling a little footsore...

A week later & he is STILL lame.
I have been through every emotion & I have tried everything I know how to - tomorrow I will (of course) be calling the vets, but until then I was wondering if anyone could offer any stories of anything similar, or any moral support, or even suggestions as to what's gone wrong.

He DOES have typical TB feet; long toe, low heel.
He is bobbing & clearly lame on the hard in walk and outright refuses to trot.
In the sand school however he is short but better in walk & will trot when pushed, but again bobs and struggles...

Here are pics of his feet currently:
		
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So you had him shod because "he struggled a little" and now he's "clearly lame".

How are those shoes working out for ya?

Get the vet


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## Holly Hocks (24 October 2012)

Oberon said:



			So you had him shod because "he struggled a little" and now he's "clearly lame".

How are those shoes working out for ya?

Get the vet 

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Not like you to sound sarky!  Had a bad day?


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## L&B (24 October 2012)

Oberon said:



			So you had him shod because "he struggled a little" and now he's "clearly lame".

How are those shoes working out for ya?

Get the vet 

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Vets coming out tomorrow, if I can get them... As I say above ^^
However (and I've a feeling you're going to LOVE this)... It was the vet who advised I got back shoes put on


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## L&B (24 October 2012)

mole said:



			have you painted that red on the frog?
		
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No, it doesn't look like that in real-life though, I'm not sure if it's the flash or if I had red eye on or something... Sorry


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## snopuma (24 October 2012)

The farrier has dubbed the toe its what they do to counteract the underslung heel, it doesn't work only masks the problem, he has also fitted your horse with  a shoe that isn't even flat to the ground, and pinching his frogs, and the sole appears to be proud of the shoe so will be putting great pressure on the inner and outer wall, basically if you farrier thought that was a good job, sack him.

You could try another farrier, or try barefoot with boots to rehab your horses feet, whatever you do you have to do it very soon, your horse is attempting to recify the problem look at the event line and the band, there is a plethera of advice about hooves on the internet now and you are allowed to learn as much if not more than your farrier.

What you will find is that farriers like to keep us in a mushroom state, and by that I mean keep us (the owner) in the dark and feed us BS.

Whereas Barefooters are happy to pass on all examples, diet, contact numbers etc.. 

as they say a little knowledge can be dangerous, that is why I looked at everything, read everything and talked about everything, alot of knowledge to be had out there, good luck


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## mole (24 October 2012)

thank goodness for that lol. 

 rather than the shoeing id prop, if its the fronts you are having a problem with, look at his work load and when the lameness started. you had back shoes put on because his workload has increased and that could be part of the issue (the workload not the back shoes).

hope you get things sorted


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## L&B (24 October 2012)

snopuma said:



			The farrier has dubbed the toe its what they do to counteract the underslung heel, it doesn't work only masks the problem, he has also fitted your horse with  a shoe that isn't even flat to the ground, and pinching his frogs, and the sole appears to be proud of the shoe so will be putting great pressure on the inner and outer wall, basically if you farrier thought that was a good job, sack him.

You could try another farrier, or try barefoot with boots to rehab your horses feet, whatever you do you have to do it very soon, your horse is attempting to recify the problem look at the event line and the band, there is a plethera of advice about hooves on the internet now and you are allowed to learn as much if not more than your farrier.

What you will find is that farriers like to keep us in a mushroom state, and by that I mean keep us (the owner) in the dark and feed us BS.

Whereas Barefooters are happy to pass on all examples, diet, contact numbers etc.. 

as they say a little knowledge can be dangerous, that is why I looked at everything, read everything and talked about everything, alot of knowledge to be had out there, good luck
		
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What brilliant information!! Thankyou so much!!
Can I ask then. The farrier is coming back out tomorrow - I have also been given the number of a newly qualified (but apparently brilliant) female farrier in my area.
What would you do? Get the original farrier to take another look? Or call out the female farrier & start afresh, asking her to take off the shoe & what to do if needed?
Or vets vets vets immediately??


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## Oberon (24 October 2012)

Holly Hocks said:



			Not like you to sound sarky!  Had a bad day? 

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Came out more caustic than it was meant  

Having said that - I am a little frustrated by sick hooves and horses in pain with a frantic owner in the middle not knowing where to turn .



L&B said:



			It was the vet who advised I got back shoes put on 

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Ah yes. Magic shoes fix everything.


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## Oberon (24 October 2012)

L&B said:



			What brilliant information!! Thankyou so much!!
Can I ask then. The farrier is coming back out tomorrow - I have also been given the number of a newly qualified (but apparently brilliant) female farrier in my area.
What would you do? Get the original farrier to take another look? Or call out the female farrier & start afresh, asking her to take off the shoe & what to do if needed?
Or vets vets vets immediately?? 

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It wouldn't hurt to get a second opinion. 

What is the horse eating?


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## FairyLights (24 October 2012)

that hind just doesnt look right. I's see about changing the farrier.


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## L&B (24 October 2012)

Horsesforever1 said:



			that hind just doesnt look right. I's see about changing the farrier.
		
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That's cos it's not his hind... Lol  it's his front!


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## Nickles1973 (24 October 2012)

As the owner of an ex-racehorse that has had on-off front hoof lameness for virtually all of the 3 years that I have owned him you do have my sympathies.
However, please don't make the mistake that I did of hanging on the every word of a farrier that believes the answer to all ill's is a metal shoe. And then allowing him and a vet that obviously knew no better to contribute (rather than address) to my horse's problems with remedial shoes.
If you do nothing else please find a new farrier that has a more balanced view of hoof care. One that will consider other options than just "chasing the foot" (a term used by my new brilliant farrier) and give your horse the chance of a sound future. 
As mentioned before there is a wealth of information out there and you owe it to your horse to arm yourself with as much as you can.


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## Kat (24 October 2012)

No advice as I'm far too inexperienced but I've just had my girls shoes off due to bruising and I can't tell you how happy she looks in hoof boots. She gets such a stomp on, striding out and stretching down. If you are struggling really consider some boots, they protect soles and frogs while giving the foot the stimulus it needs to grow and improve.


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## FairyLights (24 October 2012)

L&B said:



			That's cos it's not his hind... Lol  it's his front! 

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!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## L&B (24 October 2012)

Oberon said:



			Came out more caustic than it was meant  

Having said that - I am a little frustrated by sick hooves and horses in pain with a frantic owner in the middle not knowing where to turn .



Ah yes. Magic shoes fix everything.
	
	
		
		
	


	




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(oooh! I've learnt how to multi-quote!)
I didn't take it to be that way, don't worry  -- has there been a lot of this lately then??
I would ABSOLUTELY LOVE for my lad to be barefoot & happy... I have always owned hardier horses than my lad just now & really dislike he has crap feet & I've been told to have him shod.



Oberon said:



			It wouldn't hurt to get a second opinion. 

What is the horse eating?
		
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I have contacted previously mentioned female farrier, who has said she will come out first thing Saturday morn (9am) & said it doesn't sound right, but she will have a look & do her best.
He's is out in the day (or was before coming up lame & box rest) so winter grazing & one meal a day of: graze-on & calm & condition (I add sunflower oil, turmeric and flexi-limbs) x


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## L&B (24 October 2012)

Kat said:



			No advice as I'm far too inexperienced but I've just had my girls shoes off due to bruising and I can't tell you how happy she looks in hoof boots. She gets such a stomp on, striding out and stretching down. If you are struggling really consider some boots, they protect soles and frogs while giving the foot the stimulus it needs to grow and improve.
		
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Can you recommend any boots please??


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## Oberon (24 October 2012)

L&B said:



			graze-on & calm & condition
		
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Lots of sugar and starch in that combination (added to the sweet, autumn grass).

Could be the clue as to why he was struggling prior to the shoeing .


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## mightymammoth (24 October 2012)

Nickles1973 said:



			As the owner of an ex-racehorse that has had on-off front hoof lameness for virtually all of the 3 years that I have owned him you do have my sympathies.
However, please don't make the mistake that I did of hanging on the every word of a farrier that believes the answer to all ill's is a metal shoe. And then allowing him and a vet that obviously knew no better to contribute (rather than address) to my horse's problems with remedial shoes.
If you do nothing else please find a new farrier that has a more balanced view of hoof care. One that will consider other options than just "chasing the foot" (a term used by my new brilliant farrier) and give your horse the chance of a sound future. 
As mentioned before there is a wealth of information out there and you owe it to your horse to arm yourself with as much as you can.
		
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this is similar to my story, my horse had unexplained lameness and long story short he had hoof x rays ( not that expensive and done at the yard) this showed low heels poor hoof balance and thin soles). I knew no better so on the remedial farrier advice had egg bars put on which disguised the problem for a bit longer 

I was also feeding cereal conditioning mix and conditioning chaff , after seeking advice on here I now feed the low sugar high fibre diet. I took the back shoes off to test the water in june and so far so good.

Fronts are still bad with the same issues as before, so going to bite the bullet and take the fronts off next. My thoughts are that I need to allow him to right his body by allowing him to grow the hoof he needs.

There is another brilliant forum for people who keep there horse unshod- google phoenixhorse


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## wench (24 October 2012)

I've had three tb's and none of them have had "typical" tb feet... They've all been great!


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## L&B (24 October 2012)

Thanks for all the great (and friendly) replies everyone!

I'm really left with two options now:
Get the farrier who shod him to take his shoes off now & see how he goes without until saturday (when 2nd farrier who I called tonight in tears, lol) comes....

Take them off all together & order some boots to use through winter...

Or leave him as he is and call the vets...


If I take his shoes off though, my worry is his heel is that low & his sole that proud -- will it do more damage than good??


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## L&B (24 October 2012)

wench said:



			I've had three tb's and none of them have had "typical" tb feet... They've all been great!
		
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You are very lucky! Every TB I have ever know has been hard work in the foot-dept  I envy you!! Send some 'good foot' vibes my way!x


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## Pearlsasinger (24 October 2012)

I am not a barefoot exponent but I'd take that shoe off straight away!

The shoe doesn't fit the foot, the heels of the shoe are pressing on the bulbs of the horse's heels - no wonder  the poor animal is lame!

Unless you can get a better farrier the horse will be better off without shoes imo.


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## L&B (24 October 2012)

Pearlsasinger said:



			I am not a barefoot exponent but I'd take that shoe off straight away!

The shoe doesn't fit the foot, the heels of the shoe are pressing on the bulbs of the horse's heels - no wonder  the poor animal is lame!

Unless you can get a better farrier the horse will be better off without shoes imo.
		
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Thankyou! That final opinion was all I needed! Shoes coming off tomorrow!
x


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## Kat (25 October 2012)

My vet took shoes off and advised box rest on a deep bed at first. I'm now exercising in boots, so,don't be afraid to take the shoes off, you can always put them back on, and without shoes you can see exactly what is going on. 

WRT boots you need to work out what will fit so measure your horse and take it from there. I've got cavallo simple boots which are working well but they may not suit you. The saddlery shop website has lots of advice and a hire service which is a good place to start your research.


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## Moomin1 (25 October 2012)

snopuma said:



			The farrier has dubbed the toe its what they do to counteract the underslung heel, it doesn't work only masks the problem, he has also fitted your horse with  a shoe that isn't even flat to the ground, and pinching his frogs, and the sole appears to be proud of the shoe so will be putting great pressure on the inner and outer wall, basically if you farrier thought that was a good job, sack him.

You could try another farrier, or try barefoot with boots to rehab your horses feet, whatever you do you have to do it very soon, your horse is attempting to recify the problem look at the event line and the band, there is a plethera of advice about hooves on the internet now and you are allowed to learn as much if not more than your farrier.

What you will find is that farriers like to keep us in a mushroom state, and by that I mean keep us (the owner) in the dark and feed us BS.

Whereas Barefooters are happy to pass on all examples, diet, contact numbers etc.. 

as they say a little knowledge can be dangerous, that is why I looked at everything, read everything and talked about everything, alot of knowledge to be had out there, good luck
		
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Yeah.

Ish.


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## L&B (25 October 2012)

Moomin1 said:



			Yeah.

Ish.
		
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Huh??


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## Moomin1 (25 October 2012)

L&B said:



			Huh??
		
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My opinion from the pics are that the shoe is pinching the heel bulb and frog, as suggested earlier.

I would get a different farrier!   

I would also make your own mind up, over time, whether having your horse unshod (or 'barefoot') suits you and your horse's regime, and try not to follow the fashion of doing it just because!


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## YorksG (25 October 2012)

.

What you will find is that farriers like to keep us in a mushroom state, and by that I mean keep us (the owner) in the dark and feed us BS.

Whereas Barefooters are happy to pass on all examples, diet, contact numbers etc.. 

as they say a little knowledge can be dangerous, that is why I looked at everything, read everything and talked about everything, alot of knowledge to be had out there, good luck[/QUOTE]

What a ridiculous sweeping generalisation!


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## Moomin1 (25 October 2012)

YorksG said:



			.

What you will find is that farriers like to keep us in a mushroom state, and by that I mean keep us (the owner) in the dark and feed us BS.

Whereas Barefooters are happy to pass on all examples, diet, contact numbers etc.. 

as they say a little knowledge can be dangerous, that is why I looked at everything, read everything and talked about everything, alot of knowledge to be had out there, good luck
		
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What a ridiculous sweeping generalisation![/QUOTE]

Agree!! I just didn't say it in my last post!


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## PapaFrita (25 October 2012)

I've had loooads of TBs. Many have gone unshod, others not... My farriers (not trimmers!) have been wonderful but I'm not about to get into a debate on HHO about how farriers don't know how to do a 'barefoot trim', blah blah.
Please get a different farrier. Or PM me and I'll be happy to share my experiences


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## TwoStroke (25 October 2012)

Please be aware that simply removing the shoes is just the start. For the horse to grow healthy feet you really need to address the diet. As Oberon said, there's a lot of sugar and starch there that may be causing your horse problems.

Good luck


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## LucyPriory (25 October 2012)

I agree that shoe does not from photo evidence appear to fit the foot - which also has health issues which need addressing.  How you choose to do this is up to you.  But addressing diet and using well fitting boots with decent pads is a very kind and effective way to go.


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## peaceandquiet1 (25 October 2012)

The frog has been overtrimmed. That's the problem IMO.


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## charlie76 (25 October 2012)

Typical h & h.  It's lame,  must be the evil shoes,  whip them off,  all will be better.  What a load of rubbish!
op,  if the horse is still lame get the farrier out to take the shoe off and check for bruising or pus in foot,  it could be something a simple poultice will solve,  or it could be something going on with the internal structure of the foot in which case the vet can x ray. 
Do not decide, from advice on here,  to take the shoes off when it could be something simple.  If it is pus or a bruise,  deciding to go without shoes from people on here may well make your horse worse.


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## ester (25 October 2012)

well tbf the horse was shod.. the horse is now lame so not the best of evidence of a good shoe job  

I'd be interested to know why you think taking shoes off will make the horse worse if it is puss or a bruise?

OP have you used this farrier previously?


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## Shysmum (25 October 2012)

Just seen the photos, and that shoe is WRONG !!!!  i would get a different farrier out asap - touching the frog like that while cause it to shrink and not work as it should, and it just looks painful to start with


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## Oberon (25 October 2012)

charlie76 said:



			Typical h & h.  It's lame,  must be the evil shoes,  whip them off,  all will be better.  What a load of rubbish!
		
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Not really.

The horse is lame with shoes.

So the answer is what?

More shoes? 

Or address the diet and grow a healthier hoof?

No one is anti shoe on here.

I am personally against unhealthy hooves and patching them together with more shoes to stall pathology. 
I would rather people get aggressive with poor hoof health and address it immediately  - rather than ignore it until the horse is broken a few years down the line.

It's so frustrating to try and help someone sort out their horse's hooves and get a few months down the line - with hooves much better......only to be felled by chronic internal damage to the joints, coffin bone, tendons and ligaments. 
Too little. Too late


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## charlie76 (25 October 2012)

She said it was not right before he had shoes hence why she got him shod


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## Oberon (25 October 2012)

charlie76 said:



			She said it was not right before he had shoes hence why she got him shod
		
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Yes - and that will have been diet related and something easy to sort out.

If you read the OP, the horse wasn't lame before.


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## Littlelegs (25 October 2012)

Whatever your views on shoes, its clear that shoe doesn't fit. And from the pic, the frog looks over trimmed too. I'm pretty sure even if you took a horse like mine with healthy feet, who's never had soundness issues, & was fine in shoes, just as she is now without, & put on a shoe like that, she'd show soreness. Let alone one who's feet are already compromised. I'd ask around for recommendations for a good vet, & get them asap. Meantime I'd get some good footage of the horse in those shoes, then remove them, because that can't be comfortable.


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## Meowy Catkin (25 October 2012)

L&B said:








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There are huge event lines growing down (right under the coronet at the moment). I've only seen event lines so big - like big ripples - in horses with laminitis.

OP, please talk to your Vet (or a different Vet).


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## maree t (25 October 2012)

So( in fear of hi jacking the thread) what is the best way to feed for having a horse unshod. My gelding is on hay and grass, a tad overweight at the moment but we are having a try with his shoes coming off next week. he only has fronts on at the mo anyway.


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## kchappers (25 October 2012)

He had a click from his stifle on the right hind before and the vet advised back shoes and getting some muscle on him.
He only had fronts previously. And since the farrier put a full set on he has been lame on the front right. I think OP correct me if I'm wrong but the original farrier has had a second look at the fronts. And said he may have taken too much toe off. 
Can I just say there has been some brilliant friendly advice on this thread


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## thatsmygirl (25 October 2012)

I think it's very hard to tell by those pics tbh as the angle etc isn't great but the shoe does look to be pushing into the frog. 

Get the vet and go from there.

I would be very concerned about just taking his shoes off, if that's the route you would like to take after the vet has been etc than you will get loads of support and advise via here but you know to RESEARCH loads and learn


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## thatsmygirl (25 October 2012)

Bloody phone

you need to RESEARCH and learn as much as you can. But boots I feel are a must.


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## DragonSlayer (25 October 2012)

YorksG said:



			.

What you will find is that farriers like to keep us in a mushroom state, and by that I mean keep us (the owner) in the dark and feed us BS.

Whereas Barefooters are happy to pass on all examples, diet, contact numbers etc.. 

as they say a little knowledge can be dangerous, that is why I looked at everything, read everything and talked about everything, alot of knowledge to be had out there, good luck
		
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			What a ridiculous sweeping generalisation!
		
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^^This^^

My farrier tells me EVERYTHING he is doing, and why he is doing it and HE suggested keeping two of mine barefoot, he trims them, and they have been doing fine for the last....ooo....5 years now....


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## Zargon_91 (25 October 2012)

agree with getting farrier back out. I would get them to pressure test the soles etc just to check there isnt an abcess. Has he gone unsound in front/behind?


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## Zargon_91 (25 October 2012)

re-read the OP... if he has had hinds put back on and already had fronts on id say it is unlikely that having shoes on fullstop is the problem? How old is he? How long out of racing etc? Ask youre farrier to seat the shoes out when they take them off- he might just be feeling his soles.


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## L&B (25 October 2012)

Zargon. He was shod on fronts once before, reshod & now lame. During his first 6wks with me his foot had grown a hell of a lot, I put this down to a change in his diet & rich feeds... Farrier couldn't believe how much it had grown and said he took a lot of toe off.
He is 4. Last race March. 


What I have done now, rightly or wrongly, was have his shoes removed. I have padded & wrapped them for the evening & have a different farrier coming out tomorrow to give a second opinion & reshoe the fronts if possible - I have done this purely for piece of mind & to tick bad farriery off of my list.

The next thing I will do if the farrier can see no obvious foot issues - is get the vets out. I waited for a callback today & nothing... 

I am also going to speak to a nutritionalist & get their take on a sugar free diet - or at least changing to somewhat... 
I'm very exhausted again & drained. I only want this to stop & for him to become right again  x


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## kchappers (25 October 2012)

Hugs  xx


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## snopuma (25 October 2012)

DragonSlayer said:



			^^This^^

My farrier tells me EVERYTHING he is doing, and why he is doing it and HE suggested keeping two of mine barefoot, he trims them, and they have been doing fine for the last....ooo....5 years now....
		
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Lucky you I have been through 8 farriers in 36 years, only one was interested in  discussing the feet every time they shod he was a great farrier but we moved from his area, my present one actually asked me 'Whats going on with your mares feet' when he had come out for a 4th time to put a lost shoe on, of all the people to say that - he should know! 

Its high time there was a website that you could rate a farriers work on, very soon the best would be obvious, and the useless would be out of work, there is no proper regulation, the farriers council is next to useless if you complain as I am sure we are all aware.


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## L&B (26 October 2012)

Right so, progress so far:

I have sacked my farrier! HOORAH!
I called the vet out today along with the female farrier I spoke about: they timed it between them so they arrived at the same time to discuss what was going on & the best action:

The vet dug around both of his fronts, his left is worse than his right - she hoof tested & he was ouchy all over it, she had a scrape at one part and he bled, she said this was from a very deep bruise, she stopped right away.

She said she cannot say exactly why he is lame but can only suggest he had existing bruising which coupled with bad shoeing & taking too much toe off has made him worse & caused him to become inflamed.
Farrier agreed. She also added the other guy had nailed very close to the white line which you can sometimes get away with in hardier types, but rarely tbs, said his feet are totally unballanced (he is tilting inwards on both feet) and he has an underslung rolled heel as well as his toe being trimmed incorrectly. So in short totally flat footed & wonky.

What I have been told to do is leave the shoes off for 5days to hot poultice each day until only frog juice is showing on the pad; hopefully all of the bruising and any nasties that may be lurking will have been drawn out & gone by then. Then dry poultice for a further 2days. She has given 5 days worth of Bute just to make him that wee bit more comfortable.
Has said on day 6 if he is feeling & looking better to call the farrier back out & put some shoes on.

I asked about barefoot & boots and the farrier said she can work with me towards being barefoot in the future, but his feet are THAT flat and unballanced currently he will probably struggle ballance wise and have lots of cracks/chips (creating more of a problem) barefoot or in boots. She said she saw no reason why he couldn't go barefoot behind though & actually diagreed with the vet when she said she had advised it. Vet said it was cos he was footy on the hard & his legs looked puffy & swelled. Farrier said that if a leg is puffy and filled shoes definitely wouldn't help the problem.

Farrier says he's THAT sore that he probably won't be sound after first shoeing so she wants to just put lightweight fronts on with a finer nail to start with and get him comfortable, if it takes her an hour per shoe just to get them on; then that's what she'll do.
He is to be on box rest for at least the next two weeks & I should start seeing improvement after 3weeks & with a bit of luck should be able to ride again in 4weeks (if I'm lucky).
If there's absolutely no improvement after the third week the vet was talking about X-Rays!!!! (Ahhhhh!! :/)


In your guys experiences what do you think? A decent enough explanation given today? I'm struggling to believe a horse could become this lame through bruising & a bad trim??? Should I be worried it's more do you think?xx


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## dressedkez (27 October 2012)

shysmum said:



			no pics yet ?

Did you have him vetted ?  i think the first plan of action has to be the vet, and a full lameness work up. It may be nothing to do with his feet - and riding him could be bringing up an issue ?
		
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Agree - if it is not foot - then possibly tendon, shoulder et al.
Where did you buy him from? And what was his history......your photos are lovely  - but no help in diagnosing anything, sadly. A vet should know / help. Hopefully something minor, and TB's are wimps - the slightest thing to make them wince. I have a V good farrier - but he has proved hopelesss on getting to the knub of hoof abcesses - the Vet sorted my horse out, after I had listened to the farriers advice for 3 weeks and the horse was hopping thoroughout. Vet found the route of the abscess within minutes - I kept it in for 2 weeks, dressing the foot each day, (farrier had told me to turn it out) and now cured and sound - just have to put the weight on now that it lost through 5 weeks of being in agony!


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## kiskadee (27 October 2012)

In my experience of thoroughbreds they often have flat feet and thin soles.  They therefore bruise very easily and yes I am afraid that a bad bruise and incorrect trimming can make a horse very lame.  Bruises are sub solar heamatomas (blood blisters).  The build up of blood within the lamia  causes pressure and therefore pain bit like an abcess.  Vet and farrriers explanations make sense to me.  As 90% of lameness in horses is in the foot then I would go with them for the mo.  My old TB boy was forever going lame through bruising and always had to be shod all round due to his paper thin soles unfortuanately they don't breed them for good feet.!


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## PeterNatt (27 October 2012)

I hope that your horse goes sound shortly.
Many thoroughbreds have delicate feet.
You could try him on a daily measure of Formula4Feet
If nothing is found by vet maybe try Imprint shoes (plastic)


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## LD&S (27 October 2012)

I've been following your story with interest, it was good to read your vet and farrier were there together and it sounds as though you'll get good support from your farrier if you try and go the barefoot route.
Even if your horse is never comfortable without shoes and needs to be shod hopefully some of the advice you've received will ensure that his feet are the best they can be and he is sound, if he can go barefoot even better, it saves the cost of shoes


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## charlie76 (27 October 2012)

And my point exactly.....glad it was some thing simple.  Tb do often suffer from bruised feet.


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## charlie76 (27 October 2012)

And yes,  he can easily be that lame from bruised soles,  seen it a lot in Tb types


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## TigerTail (27 October 2012)

L&B said:



			Right so, progress so far:

I have sacked my farrier! HOORAH!
I called the vet out today along with the female farrier I spoke about: they timed it between them so they arrived at the same time to discuss what was going on & the best action:

The vet dug around both of his fronts, his left is worse than his right - she hoof tested & he was ouchy all over it, she had a scrape at one part and he bled, she said this was from a very deep bruise, she stopped right away.

She said she cannot say exactly why he is lame but can only suggest he had existing bruising which coupled with bad shoeing & taking too much toe off has made him worse & caused him to become inflamed.
Farrier agreed. She also added the other guy had nailed very close to the white line which you can sometimes get away with in hardier types, but rarely tbs, said his feet are totally unballanced (he is tilting inwards on both feet) and he has an underslung rolled heel as well as his toe being trimmed incorrectly. So in short totally flat footed & wonky.

What I have been told to do is leave the shoes off for 5days to hot poultice each day until only frog juice is showing on the pad; hopefully all of the bruising and any nasties that may be lurking will have been drawn out & gone by then. Then dry poultice for a further 2days. She has given 5 days worth of Bute just to make him that wee bit more comfortable.
Has said on day 6 if he is feeling & looking better to call the farrier back out & put some shoes on.

I asked about barefoot & boots and the farrier said she can work with me towards being barefoot in the future, but his feet are THAT flat and unballanced currently he will probably struggle ballance wise and have lots of cracks/chips (creating more of a problem) barefoot or in boots. She said she saw no reason why he couldn't go barefoot behind though & actually diagreed with the vet when she said she had advised it. Vet said it was cos he was footy on the hard & his legs looked puffy & swelled. Farrier said that if a leg is puffy and filled shoes definitely wouldn't help the problem.

Farrier says he's THAT sore that he probably won't be sound after first shoeing so she wants to just put lightweight fronts on with a finer nail to start with and get him comfortable, if it takes her an hour per shoe just to get them on; then that's what she'll do.
He is to be on box rest for at least the next two weeks & I should start seeing improvement after 3weeks & with a bit of luck should be able to ride again in 4weeks (if I'm lucky).
If there's absolutely no improvement after the third week the vet was talking about X-Rays!!!! (Ahhhhh!! :/)


In your guys experiences what do you think? A decent enough explanation given today? I'm struggling to believe a horse could become this lame through bruising & a bad trim??? Should I be worried it's more do you think?xx
		
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It sounds like sensible opinions, for a farrier and vet.

However personally I wouldnt want any nails going into a foot that is so clearly bruised and when the laminae are inflamed and compromised.

Please get the TB stereotype out of your mind. His breeding is not an excuse for him to have poor feet. Its not an excuse to shoe. I would be booting, looking at diet, natural anti inflammatories and letting his feet alone for about 8-12 weeks, then getting them very conservatively trimmed.

He is your horse, the vet and farrier can offer opinions but you do not have to carry them through.

Link to bruising article by barefoot trimmer Lucy Priory - follow the links on the right hand side for more info 

http://barefoothorseblog.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/bruising


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## Tnavas (27 October 2012)

snopuma said:



			The farrier has dubbed the toe its what they do to counteract the underslung heel, it doesn't work only masks the problem he has also fitted your horse with  a shoe that isn't even flat to the ground, and pinching his frogs, and the sole appears to be proud of the shoe so will be putting great pressure on the inner and outer wall, basically if you farrier thought that was a good job, sack him.

You could try another farrier, or try barefoot with boots to rehab your horses feet, whatever you do you have to do it very soon, your horse is attempting to recify the problem look at the event line and the band, there is a plethera of advice about hooves on the internet now and you are allowed to learn as much if not more than your farrier.

What you will find is that farriers like to keep us in a mushroom state, and by that I mean keep us (the owner) in the dark and feed us BS.

Whereas Barefooters are happy to pass on all examples, diet, contact numbers etc.. 

as they say a little knowledge can be dangerous, that is why I looked at everything, read everything and talked about everything, alot of knowledge to be had out there, good luck
		
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Are you are barefoot trimmer? If so you should know the term for excessive rasping of the toe of the foot is 'DUMPING' - Dubbing is what they do when recording music.

Generally there is a small gap at the ground surface where the quarter clips are drawn up.

The OP has had the horse 6 weeks - the event line will be as a result of different grazing/feed not the horse trying to sort out its feet after only being shod a few days!

The picture shown does not have a 'Dumped' toe
This is a *dumped* toe






Compare






Heels are a little close to the frog, the farrier could have opened the heels of the shoes a little more but has given the horse a wide bearing surface around the quarters to allow for the expansion of the foot when on the ground, he could have straightened the shoe a littl more which would have allowed more room for the heels and frog..

The shoe is not set below the level of the sole - that's just the effect the water has on the photo.

The sole however does look bruised and could be the reason for the tenderness.

What sort of surface was the horse previously used to?


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## ester (27 October 2012)

Am glad you got them together OP and sounds like you do then have a way forwards. 

The only bit I was a bit concerned about was why it was going to take an hour to get a shoe on each foot.. is that because she thinks he might be that uncomfortable with it? I might be a bit reluctant to put nails in if it is going to make him more uncomfortable. 

I also am not sure why if he were to be wearing boots (+pads) why his feet would chip and crack . 

Re the lameness/bruising our shod horse was recently really rather lame when she developed a corn under her shoe.. this was resolved by banging flat the shoe in that area to take the pressure off which certainly worked. 

fwiw I'm only thinking re the physics of this really rather than shoes off being the only way.


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## Kat (27 October 2012)

My vet said virtually what tigertail said, that she didn't want to nail shoes onto a bruised foot. I was told that after 4 weeks we could consider glue ons but no nails for quite sometime. And the bruising mine has doesn't sound as bad as yours, she certainly didn't bleed when examined!


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## tallyho! (27 October 2012)

L&B said:



			I asked about barefoot & boots and the farrier said she can work with me towards being barefoot in the future, but his feet are THAT flat and unballanced currently he will probably struggle ballance wise and have lots of cracks/chips (creating more of a problem) barefoot or in boots. She said she saw no reason why he couldn't go barefoot behind though & actually diagreed with the vet when she said she had advised it. Vet said it was cos he was footy on the hard & his legs looked puffy & swelled. Farrier said that if a leg is puffy and filled shoes definitely wouldn't help the problem.

Farrier says he's THAT sore that he probably won't be sound after first shoeing so she wants to just put lightweight fronts on with a finer nail to start with and get him comfortable, if it takes her an hour per shoe just to get them on; then that's what she'll do.
He is to be on box rest for at least the next two weeks & I should start seeing improvement after 3weeks & with a bit of luck should be able to ride again in 4weeks (if I'm lucky).
If there's absolutely no improvement after the third week the vet was talking about X-Rays!!!! (Ahhhhh!! :/)


In your guys experiences what do you think? A decent enough explanation given today? I'm struggling to believe a horse could become this lame through bruising & a bad trim??? Should I be worried it's more do you think?xx
		
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Oh yes a horse can easily become so lame after bruising and a bad trim! The hoof is a very sensitive thing yet so strong it can bear the weight of a horse so easily... when healthy. When it isn't then little things can trigger an avalanche of problems.

My worry with what your farrier has said about shoeing really worries me. If he is so sore and his white line so inflamed, would YOU nail and hammer a shoe on? If your nail was hurt and bruised, would you let someone near it with a hard object to hit it with? Poor horse. 

I see boots and pads as "bandages" for poorly hooves. They envelop the whole foot protecting it from tough surfaces, dirt, provides shock absorbancy and allows feet to expand ond contract allowing the pus and bad stuff to come out and more importantly, good blood flow to heal from the inside. This will invariably help with the abscess too.

To shoe now would be prolonging the healing process in my eyes. So I disagree with the farrier in this case as I think balance is quicker got in boots than in shoes. Balance is not just about the hoof wall, it's about the digital cushion, the lateral cartilages, the frog etc and these are the very things shoes destroy over time. 

I think you do have a long patient stretch ahead of you but an even longer one in shoes. Boot and pad until the hoof is healthier, then shoe if you think it's still necessary. Not too soon.

I think the vet & farrier have been very good, but they want to make sure their client is riding her horse which is their professional aim, but don't rush into it, make sure you have eliminated all problems so an x-ray is a good idea!

I'm so sorry you're having this problem so soon after you got your lovely horse but take heart, it will get better. All that is needed is a bit of time


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## L&B (27 October 2012)

Thankyou everyone for your advice. I am reading it all and taking it all in...
I suppose my worry with boots & pads is that even after we have some healthy hoof on there and I decide to shoe we will be back at square one again as soon as a shoe it put back on - whether that be in 6weeks, 8 weeks or whatever... What do you think?
I will look into boots though, I have a good week before I have to make any kind of decision so will do all the reading I can.
Can anyone who has mentioned boots recommend some boots and pads? The more economical in price the better as I don't doubt my two vets bills are going to be big, all in one go!x


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## ester (27 October 2012)

Pines of Rome on here had her boy in boots for turnout etc for quite a while I think initially. I think she used cavallos which are one of the more economical boots and can be well padded. I've not used them myself but you could pm her to ask . 

I think the thing to think about putting shoes back on is that the aim would be to have yours more comfortable before you did that so you wouldn't really be back to square one when you put shoes on as you would hopefully have a less bruised foot to start with . 

fwiw re vets mine was happy for me to take my lame boys shoes off.. but his main reluctance was that I was then not going to be able to ride him as I had been doing pre lameness and I do think they get stuck on getting the horse back to work asap for the owner. He was very much 'you know thats going to take a while don't you' I was happy to be patient about it and conventional treatments didn't work anyway so there wasn't really another choice by then anyway .


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## lachlanandmarcus (27 October 2012)

L&B said:



			Thankyou everyone for your advice. I am reading it all and taking it all in...
I suppose my worry with boots & pads is that even after we have some healthy hoof on there and I decide to shoe we will be back at square one again as soon as a shoe it put back on - whether that be in 6weeks, 8 weeks or whatever... What do you think?
I will look into boots though, I have a good week before I have to make any kind of decision so will do all the reading I can.
Can anyone who has mentioned boots recommend some boots and pads? The more economical in price the better as I don't doubt my two vets bills are going to be big, all in one go!x
		
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You can often find them second hand on eBay or Phoenix forum too. Or hire from saddlery shop. They have a guide on how to measure. They are a good investment as you can use them if the horse loses a shoe in the field or out hacking too - or they are readily re-sellable for at least 50% of new price.


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## tallyho! (27 October 2012)

L&B said:



			Thankyou everyone for your advice. I am reading it all and taking it all in...
I suppose my worry with boots & pads is that even after we have some healthy hoof on there and I decide to shoe we will be back at square one again as soon as a shoe it put back on - whether that be in 6weeks, 8 weeks or whatever... What do you think?
I will look into boots though, I have a good week before I have to make any kind of decision so will do all the reading I can.
Can anyone who has mentioned boots recommend some boots and pads? The more economical in price the better as I don't doubt my two vets bills are going to be big, all in one go!x
		
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What do you think boots will do? Look for a pair of Cavallos. Pad them with gel pads or dense foam on the bottom only. It will mould into the shape of the sole and frog.

It's the best thing as it protects the whole hoof yet allows stimulation and growth naturally.

After you have sorted the abscess, what I would do is bed/turnout on soft stuff. Boot up (pads in obviously) and walk in hand. This stimulates growth but protects the feet and hardens up the sole and frog.

There is no way you will end up at back at square one.


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## pines of rome (27 October 2012)

I did turn my boy out in cavallo boots and comfort pads for about 3 months, this so helped his sore feet, I did try epona glue ons but they would not stay on!
I do feel that if I shod my horse now he would be ok in the short term but after doing this once before I know I would be back to where I started, so he is staying barefoot, he has grown some great feet in the nine months the shoes have been off


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## L&B (8 November 2012)

Just an update on the above & another dilemma:

 I ran with Xrays for my boy: no pic yet though, as I only got him Xrayed and his results today. I am going to see them in-life tomorrow at 3pm.

What has been said is: there is no sign of lammi in my boy, he has VERY flat feet, even by TB standards. The vet said his pedal bone was practically touching flat to his sole... And typically, he has very thin sole.
Now, this is the part I'm not happy with: she says he may never come right, she also says IF he does come right I may be looking at a horse who will be on/off lame for the rest of his life, she doubts he will ever be more than a 'fun' horse, and he will without a doubt require remedial farriery...

However, after speaking to my new farrier, his seller (retraining co), and ALSO his old jockey/trainer my thoughts are these: he was sound whilst he was racing else he would have had a bullet - simples, he was sound after coming off of the track & being with his seller for six months (that's 3-4 sets of shoes/trimming worth & 5days work per week), and he was sound with me for 4weeks. 
The second he went lame was when he was trimmed and shod at my place, by the yard farrier. Coincidence? 

I cannot understand how with patience and correct management & remedial farriery he wouldn't come sound again??? He's been sound before with a 'flat' pedal bone, and if there's been no lammi or rotation, then how can this be affecting him now without it being related to the farrier job? BAFFLES ME!
What I *NOW* think has happened is; he has shockingly flat feet (that's just him), the farrier has been un-sympathetic, brutal & has done a rush job: trimming too much toe back & leaving him on his heels, putting pressure on that pedal bone. He's ended up sore & possibly bruised as a result. BAM! 
Nothing can conclude until he's comfy in remedial shoes and grows some hoof back! Thoughts?
I am following a strict diet now also, xx


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## asommerville (8 November 2012)

sounds like his feet were just about identical to my mares, ive had her 6 years and yes ive spebt a lot of money on shoes/remedial farriery and she has been lame on and ofd but....but innbetween shes done showing, jumping up to 1m workera and xc and rc activitea.  Her wee feet are going backwards atm but i think theres other things going on..just shows you though with a good farrier and good practice anything is possible.  fingers crossed for you x


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## Frozen Hoof Boots (8 November 2012)

Tnavas said:



			The picture shown does not have a 'Dumped' toe
This is a *dumped* toe





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Interesting thread....
This was my horse btw you've quoted pic as toe dumped which turned out to be a wobbler who was PTS earlier this year.  Sadly whilst my farrier was a giant nobber I can't attribute all of the dubbed toe to his poor workmanship it was the fact the horse had C3/C4 spinal compression he didn't know where is legs were.


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## Frozen Hoof Boots (8 November 2012)

On a lighter note I have taken my new horse barefoot.  He is very flat footed underun heels, long toes in front.  He is however doing brilliantly barefoot and we hack in boots and 12mm soft pads.  Tons of new hoof and new growth line correcting his flattest pancake foot.  New farrier kept dubbing his toe in shoes and not giving him enough heel support lead to them getting worse. Happy to share a pick of the changes if you are interested.


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## muff747 (8 November 2012)

OP, I would give barefoot a chance to work. In shoes - as the vet says - he's going to be on and off lame so what have you to lose by trying?
He has big fat frogs which are a big advantage to start with.
IMO and if he were mine, I would buy a set of boots and thick pads and give it a year, or even six months and then re think, you may find he does better without shoes.  
Look at Rockleys blog, do some research and look at all the threads on here which mention barefoot TB's that have been brought back from the brink of PTS and are leading a hard working barefoot healthy useful life.
Good luck with what ever you decide


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## L&B (8 November 2012)

GiddyUpGirl said:



			On a lighter note I have taken my new horse barefoot.  He is very flat footed underun heels, long toes in front.  He is however doing brilliantly barefoot and we hack in boots and 12mm soft pads.  Tons of new hoof and new growth line correcting his flattest pancake foot.  New farrier kept dubbing his toe in shoes and not giving him enough heel support lead to them getting worse. Happy to share a pick of the changes if you are interested.  

Click to expand...

GUG! Yes! Pics or anything I can lay my mitts on at this satge is comforting - just to know people are getting there with theirs is giving me hope.
Four years old seems too young to think about retirement or PTS yet :'(


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## Wagtail (9 November 2012)

L&B said:



			Just an update on the above & another dilemma:

 I ran with Xrays for my boy: no pic yet though, as I only got him Xrayed and his results today. I am going to see them in-life tomorrow at 3pm.

What has been said is: there is no sign of lammi in my boy, he has VERY flat feet, even by TB standards. The vet said his pedal bone was practically touching flat to his sole... And typically, he has very thin sole.
Now, this is the part I'm not happy with: she says he may never come right, she also says IF he does come right I may be looking at a horse who will be on/off lame for the rest of his life, she doubts he will ever be more than a 'fun' horse, and he will without a doubt require remedial farriery...

However, after speaking to my new farrier, his seller (retraining co), and ALSO his old jockey/trainer my thoughts are these: he was sound whilst he was racing else he would have had a bullet - simples, he was sound after coming off of the track & being with his seller for six months (that's 3-4 sets of shoes/trimming worth & 5days work per week), and he was sound with me for 4weeks. 
The second he went lame was when he was trimmed and shod at my place, by the yard farrier. Coincidence? 

I cannot understand how with patience and correct management & remedial farriery he wouldn't come sound again??? He's been sound before with a 'flat' pedal bone, and if there's been no lammi or rotation, then how can this be affecting him now without it being related to the farrier job? BAFFLES ME!
What I *NOW* think has happened is; he has shockingly flat feet (that's just him), the farrier has been un-sympathetic, brutal & has done a rush job: trimming too much toe back & leaving him on his heels, putting pressure on that pedal bone. He's ended up sore & possibly bruised as a result. BAM! 
Nothing can conclude until he's comfy in remedial shoes and grows some hoof back! Thoughts?
I am following a strict diet now also, xx
		
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I would buy him some hoof boots and put styrofoam pads inside. They are about an inch thick but squash right down and mold to the shape of the feet. Take the shoes off if not already. Then give him time to grow more hoof.


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## LucyPriory (9 November 2012)

Flat feet/thin soles can be resolved.  It is not always easy - but it can be done.  Depends a lot on how determined the various parties involved are.  

As others have commented - having great frogs really helps and while you are sorting everything out - use boots and pads.  I have no idea why these are not more routinely 'prescribed' they are so effective, so versatile and so (relatively) cheap.  Yes sometimes it is hard to get a good fit, but as the number of styles and brands evolves and as our collective wisdom grows this is becoming less and less of an issue.

I've worked a lot on TBs and I do find these can be very sensitive to diet - which is invariably reflected in the quality of their hooves.


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## L&B (9 November 2012)

Thankyou for all of your replies...
I have awoken after probably 3hours of sleep & hours and hours of crying yesterday with a more positive attitude.
My lad's temperament is just too good to throw away & give up hope on because of some lameness in his feet. I stayed up til 3am last night cramming myself full of information - it could be so much worse - his pedal bone hasn't rotated or anything of the kind, it's just low, that's all: he's JUST flat footed & being clever about farriery/trimming and diet as far as I can see will fix this.
He's four years old and has never put a foot wrong. He looks after me both ridden and in the field like a little soldier... I'm not about to let that go. We'll get there. I don't give a sh*** if it takes a year.


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## Littlelegs (9 November 2012)

Op, I'll leave the advice to those with more expertise of remedial work. But to give you some hope, my mare has big flat feet, prone to flares & spreading if not kept on top off. Being a good doer with excess energy, her diet has always been low in sugar, before I knew about the relevance to feet. So by chance a barefoot diet already, she has just enough concavaty for her sole not to touch the floor. However if I put up a pic, its so slight it would look flat. She was shod from starting work, cos that's what everyone did 20 yrs ago. 5yrs ago my farrier recommended leaving her barefoot, which required little in the way of transistion. But, I've been lucky her whole life with farriers. The amount of times I was told by other farriers, vets, experienced people her toe needed trimming back when shod, feet to wide etc, do this that the other to reshape her feet. Luckily I had a farrier who knew his job, & left well alone, which in time educated me to her needs. So when I moved areas, met new farriers, vets etc, I could stand my ground & say no, this is what she needs, not textbook pretty hooves & crippling. I realise your boy needs more work than I put in. But, if I hadn't been lucky in her coincidental good diet & initial farrier, her hooves would no doubt be the same. And if she can still march across rocks at 23, there's no reason your boy can't too. Good luck.


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## Oberon (9 November 2012)

L&B said:



			Thankyou for all of your replies...
I have awoken after probably 3hours of sleep & hours and hours of crying yesterday with a more positive attitude.
My lad's temperament is just too good to throw away & give up hope on because of some lameness in his feet. I stayed up til 3am last night cramming myself full of information - it could be so much worse - his pedal bone hasn't rotated or anything of the kind, it's just low, that's all: he's JUST flat footed & being clever about farriery/trimming and diet as far as I can see will fix this.
He's four years old and has never put a foot wrong. He looks after me both ridden and in the field like a little soldier... I'm not about to let that go. We'll get there. I don't give a sh*** if it takes a year.
		
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I am watching a horse with 'genetically flat' soles who went barefoot a few months ago in desperation.

He has been shod since 4 and is now 10. 

His owner floated the idea of barefoot with a trimmer a few years ago - but the trimmer (correctly) recommended to keep him in shoes "for now" as the soles were so thin and flat. He recommended some dietary changes and the horse appeared better - so the owner went on as normal and thought no more about the hooves.

But the lameness kept coming back.

So, after some other dietary tinkerings, the shoes came off a few months ago. The horse was unhappy for a couple of weeks (I have not been involved in this process ) but has gone from strength to strength - his soles are thickening up 

While there is still blood supply, there is ALWAYS the potential to turn around the sickest hooves.

If I can be any help - let me know .

http://www.hoofrehab.com/jessica.htm


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## Scarlett (9 November 2012)

L&B said:



			What has been said is: there is no sign of lammi in my boy, he has VERY flat feet, even by TB standards. The vet said his pedal bone was practically touching flat to his sole... And typically, he has very thin sole.
Now, this is the part I'm not happy with: she says he may never come right, she also says IF he does come right I may be looking at a horse who will be on/off lame for the rest of his life, she doubts he will ever be more than a 'fun' horse, and he will without a doubt require remedial farriery...

However, after speaking to my new farrier, his seller (retraining co), and ALSO his old jockey/trainer my thoughts are these: he was sound whilst he was racing else he would have had a bullet - simples, he was sound after coming off of the track & being with his seller for six months (that's 3-4 sets of shoes/trimming worth & 5days work per week), and he was sound with me for 4weeks. 
The second he went lame was when he was trimmed and shod at my place, by the yard farrier. Coincidence? 

I cannot understand how with patience and correct management & remedial farriery he wouldn't come sound again??? He's been sound before with a 'flat' pedal bone, and if there's been no lammi or rotation, then how can this be affecting him now without it being related to the farrier job? BAFFLES ME!
What I *NOW* think has happened is; he has shockingly flat feet (that's just him), the farrier has been un-sympathetic, brutal & has done a rush job: trimming too much toe back & leaving him on his heels, putting pressure on that pedal bone. He's ended up sore & possibly bruised as a result. BAM! 
Nothing can conclude until he's comfy in remedial shoes and grows some hoof back! Thoughts?
I am following a strict diet now also, xx
		
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I had one the same, feet so flat that in the end we eneded up with soft tissue damage. I have taken her shoes off and followed a barefoot regime and guess what, her feet are no longer flat, she has heels and her feet are at a completely different angle. She has gone off to have a foal as was my original plan for her. I had the talk of retirement or being PTS, now I get to have the conversation on how I can't wait to get her back into work after her foal next year.

TB's don't need to have 'typical' feet, I have 3 and all have had their feet transformed by removing shoes. 

I think to say he was 'sound' before is a bit misleading... his issues havn't came on overnight, they came on because the farrier changed something, the issues were always there. One persons idea of a sound horse is different to another. Shoes can hide a multitude of issues, be thankful you have found out his issues and now have the chance to correct them.

Good luck with him whichever way you go about helping him - he is lucky to have someone who cares this much...!


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## Rose Folly (9 November 2012)

I'm coming in right at the end of this, and I should be somewhere else. Two things strike me:
1. From the photo, your horse appears to have abnormally long pasterns - never a good thing.
2. Recent experience. My ex-chaser livery had to be on box rest for 3 months. When walked out in hand after ailment was cured he was a tad pottery.When ridden he was occasionally OK in walk, and def. lame in trot. Both the vet and the farrier said 'muscle wastage', and I think they've been proved right. He then went on to a very careful regime of walk  in hand, then 10 minutes ridden on flat, three weeks on he's on 20 minutes ridden in walk up and back down the nearest hill. He's now totally sound. We had immediately put the problem down to the fact that he had been re-shod after his confinement and, I'm afraid, had blamed it on the farrier (behind his back). We've now eaten our words...... Could it be the same for your horse, as from your post it sounds as though he'd been out of work for a bit, or in very light work?


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## EnduroRider (9 November 2012)

No real advice but just wanted ti say do not give up hope, there is always a way forward and it needn't be the same for all.

I am no barefoot evangelist but do think that you need to be flexible and adapt to what suits each horse, rider, and the job they wish to do together.

I have a TB that raced until he was 10. He then had a very quiet yr, some R&R and light schooling. I started him in endurance in June 2009 and he was fine that summer. He continued in light work through the winter and competed throughout spring and summer 2010. However he was shoeing intermittent lameness from about August and my vets asked their preferred Farrier to take him on. The new Farrier was very certain that all his problems were foot related, very flat feet, thin soles and hideously under run heels.

He didn't think the feet were healthy enough to continue nailing in to so we tried Imprint Sports. Unfortunately given the shape of the feet and our ground conditions we just couldn't keep them on. My Farrier advised that we take the shoes of completely, this would allow him to really work on getting his heels corrected and his feet to recover. However we also knee that this horse would never stand up to the work that I needed him to do barefoot (no debate on 'everyto horse can go barefoot in all work' here please!). 

So we came upon a plan to suit all parties. The horse was to have his shoes off until February (it was now September), come the spring, when I needed to up the work we would look a putting shoes back on.

Unsurprisingly he was dreadfully sore, despite being turned out in hoof boots. However over those 5 months his feet improved massively and he actually grew foot, and indeed heels for the first time since I'd had him.

In the spring the shoes went on but with advice from the Farrier that his time in them may cause some of the problems to restart and may be limited.

In 2011 we kept shoes on from february until september and unlike previously his feet were now healthy enough that they didn't keep falling off. Once the competition season finished the shoes came off again and he had the winter off. This time he coped without the boots.

In 2012 we did the same, shoes back on in February to allow us to compete and they came off again in September. This winter, having had a quieter season, the horse is staying in light work through the winter. His bare feet are not up to lots of road work but we are happily hacking farm tracks and schooling.


Oops, that turned out really long! Really I just wanted to share that it doesn't have to be bare or shod and with the right Farrier and a little flexibility it is possible to come to a solution that is workable x


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## CBFan (9 November 2012)

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE look at his diet - it is so full of sugar and starch at the moment it really is no wonder he has such sore and inflamed feet. I have seen feet twice as flat as those come good so PLEASE don't give up on him. Try barefoot. Get him some boots - Don't whatever you do let anyone bang nails in those poor sore feet. It isn't going to be a quick or easy journey but it will be worth it in the end.

Start by keeping him in on a deep bed. any short time turnout needs to be on a soft surface - arena ideally. then build him up as he becomes more comfortable.

Diet wise I'd put him on fast fibre and micronised linseed for starters. Then look at a good hoof supplement like pro hoof by progressive earth.

You can make flat feet more upright (and thus correct the structures within them) but only with the correct diet, trimming and exercise.

How vets can get away with saying 'it's only bruising' these days is beyond me...


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## Kat (9 November 2012)

CBFan said:



			PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE look at his diet - it is so full of sugar and starch at the moment it really is no wonder he has such sore and inflamed feet. I have seen feet twice as flat as those come good so PLEASE don't give up on him. Try barefoot. Get him some boots - Don't whatever you do let anyone bang nails in those poor sore feet. It isn't going to be a quick or easy journey but it will be worth it in the end.

Start by keeping him in on a deep bed. any short time turnout needs to be on a soft surface - arena ideally. then build him up as he becomes more comfortable.
Diet wise I'd put him on fast fibre and micronised linseed for starters. Then look at a good hoof supplement like pro hoof by progressive earth.

You can make flat feet more upright (and thus correct the structures within them) but only with the correct diet, trimming and exercise.

How vets can get away with saying 'it's only bruising' these days is beyond me...
		
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The bit in blue is exactly what the vet has recommended for my mare with flat feet and thin bruised soles. 

Mine had been sound in shoes for a couple of years before becoming uncomfortable. 

I have bought boots and I'm changing her diet to try and help. 

She is switching to speedibeet (unmolassed) pro hoof, micronised linseed and salt. We are tailing off her pure condition with a view to using the linseed to keep weight on instead but may need to use something like a chaff to get her to eat up. 

I bought 12lbs EPS pads and cavallo simple boots. The boots are easy to put on, stay on and haven't rubbed (despite her being the type that gets rubbed easily). She is really comfortable in the boots, striding out on all surfaces in hand. I'm not riding her yet, and she isn't 100% comfortable turned out bare yet but the boots give her the comfort and support she needs to move and exercise and the deep bed does the same when she is in. 

If your horse is as bad as the vet says surely it is worth giving him a try in boots. They will protect and cushion his sole better than shoes and won't involve nailing into his sore feet. My vet won't hear of nails going in for ages, but has suggested glue on shoes. I'm happy with the boots for now though and they work out far cheaper. Mine were £80 per pair including delivery and a set of gel pads. The EPS pads (thicker than the gel pads) were about £10. Boots last for a year or more depending upon how heavily you use them so although they cost more than a set of shoes you are quickly on the winning side


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## TigerTail (9 November 2012)

I would be using boots and pads - not remedial farriery - this often causes more problems than it fixes and also means nailing into those poor bruised feet which will probably cause a flare up of pain and lameness.

Please get his feet measured and then call the Saddlery Shop for advice on which make of boot will fit him best. 

What is the 'strict diet' ?


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## Goldenstar (9 November 2012)

L&B said:



			Thankyou for all of your replies...
I have awoken after probably 3hours of sleep & hours and hours of crying yesterday with a more positive attitude.
My lad's temperament is just too good to throw away & give up hope on because of some lameness in his feet. I stayed up til 3am last night cramming myself full of information - it could be so much worse - his pedal bone hasn't rotated or anything of the kind, it's just low, that's all: he's JUST flat footed & being clever about farriery/trimming and diet as far as I can see will fix this.
He's four years old and has never put a foot wrong. He looks after me both ridden and in the field like a little soldier... I'm not about to let that go. We'll get there. I don't give a sh*** if it takes a year.
		
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Your story is a more serious version of mine.
I took his shoes off in April he is now walking on Tarmac and working well On grass and in the school and jumping and landing freely and happily his feet will still improve he has not got a whole new foot .
The diet is key mines horn quality growing has improved since I changed him to farriers formula so thats helped mine it was already better but it looking really good now at tthe top I can't wait to get it to the bottom and see how much thicker his wall are going to be.
Boots and pads are a god send for these type of horses you seem to have a good vet and farrier so you are in good shape to give him every chance.


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## Angua2 (9 November 2012)

My TB had feet like you describe, flat paper thin soles that you could flex with your thumb etc etc....

Shoes came off  and these are the latest photos I have ( I am sorry for the size of them)














you can even see some concavity in the second picture..... something I was told would never be achived with a TB

Address the diet, get some boots (I got the cavello simples) and hunker down for the long haul...... it is worth it honest, as my TB is sounder than the natives on my yard over every surface you can think of


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## L&B (12 November 2012)

I am overwhelmed at the amount of replies I have had trying to spread the hope & let me know I'm not alone in all of this... Being told in not-so-many words that your horse MAY be good for nothing but a tin, isn't nice when I adore him so much!!!

I've seen the Xrays now, which show that my boys feet are EXTREMELY flat & he has INCREDIBLY thin soles... I will add a picture shortly.

For me it seems to be a little tricky atm, idk if that's down to the type of person I am, or what I'm actually being told, but both the vet & the farrier are saying it would be to my boys deterement to try going barefoot just now even with boots & pads (even though I've expressed I'd like that as an option), because his feet are JUST that FLAT they-say that boots just wouldn't give him the support he needs that shoes can.

I'm kind of stuck in a rock & a hard place as to go against vet & farrier advice is a hard thing to do & leaves me feeling very vulnerable. Also my insurance doesn't particularly recognise barefoot trimming as a way forward unless the vet suggests it, in which case I really would be left to fend for myself.
I was told to take him out of shoes would be cruel at this point; until he has grown some heel back and thickened his soles up (where the last farrier butchered him). What do you all think?

You will be pleased to know I have changed his diet, he was on haylage and one hard feed per day of: sugarbeet, grazeon & conditioning cubes.

He is now on haylage and one (smaller) hard feed per day of: speedibeet & high fibre cubes. He is also on Topspec's Healthy Hoof Supplement/Balancer and has a mineral lick as well as a salt lick on offer in his stable.

So I'm guessing it is a waiting game, do we think?
Both the vet & farrier want to leave the shoes he has on for at least 4weeks (and to be honest, so do I, as he's had two pairs on & then pulled in the last four weeks it's just going to cause more stress to his feet) -- and then I guess BIG decisions are to be made as to where to go from here!

His Xray:


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## CBFan (12 November 2012)

Ok... first things first. Don't feel that you are alone. There are plenty of people on here and other forums who can offer you support. I personally would find youself a barefoot trimmer who can at least come out and offer you some advice. They may well agree with your farrier and your vet but they may also think otherwise. You have to go with your gut instinct. One thing I would question is how do they expect the horse to grow more heel and thicken his sole in shoes, when neither will be in contact with the ground?? On that basis alone I'd be tempted to go it alone...

 I know I am so pleased I changed from a farrier to a BF Trimmer... my boys feet have changed so much - for the better. and I was chatting to a friend yesterday who took her TB with 'typical TB feet' BF a few months ago and she admitted that she was gobsmacked at the change in the angle of growth and the qualit of horn growing down... he's still in hoof boots much of the time but she is slowly pushing him a bit more on various surfaces without them on and he is improving all the time. I can't wait til he has a whole new hoof... he's almost half way there and it's only been just over 3 months... baring in mind that before that he wasn't growing enough hoof to put shoes on him, that really does say something don't you think??!

As for the diet - sounds like a vast improvement although watch the hi-fibre cubes as they do contain mollasses but you might be ok.. I would reccomend you get hold of some micronised linseed and feed a good mug a day. you may also find the addition of some magnesium beneficial. I'm not sure what quantities the TS supp has in it but the ready made supps often fall short... It is quite hard to OD on MG as excess is easily extreted in the urine...


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## Wagtail (12 November 2012)

Your horse has very severe reverse rotation of the pedal bone. I expect they will want to shoe him with wedges to raise his heels and try to correct this. However, it is often shoeing which is to blame for this condition in the first place. The tip of his pedal bone is extremely close to the hoof wall at the toe and so I expect that shoeing him will be extremely painful in itself. Personally, if you cannot get your vet on board with going barefoot, then I would ask if your horse can be shod with imprint shoes, which are glue on. They will support the frog and the sole and give immediate comfort to your horse. Most insurance companies will pay for these.


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## L&B (12 November 2012)

Wagtail can you elaborate on what that means please? Sorry, again, not trying to be ignorant, I just don't understand...

Is barefoot the solution? If so, why? Can bone conformation be corrected?


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## TigerTail (12 November 2012)

Id second the Topspec supp not being enough - forage plus or pro hoof would be much better options, and you get more minerals for your money, rather than a sneeze of mineral and lots of fillers.

I think Wagtail has hit on a nice happy medium, maybe try one or two cycles or imprints and see how he's doing then - Id still get a barefoot trimmer out to consult with on the x rays and see what they think. I do not think there is anyway I could countenance putting nails in those feet atm.


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## Wagtail (12 November 2012)

L&B said:



			Wagtail can you elaborate on what that means please? Sorry, again, not trying to be ignorant, I just don't understand...

Is barefoot the solution? If so, why? Can bone conformation be corrected?
		
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Yes, it can be corrected. If you look at the marker on the front of the hoof, the pedal bone should be parallel with this. However, your horse's pedal bones are rotated upwards. Imagine walking on just your heels with your toes in the air. That is how your horse is effectively walking. The bottom of his pedal bone should be slightly above the parallel to the ground. Your horse's is lower at the back. Traditional remedial farriery will try to correct this by raising his heels and so correcting the angle of the pedal bone. IME this very rarely works and can have a detrimental effect on the hoof structures. I would not want to be putting nails through those hoof walls either. Imprint shoes will offer lots of support and comfort without compromising the structure of the hoof.


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## L&B (12 November 2012)

Wagtail said:



			Yes, it can be corrected. If you look at the marker on the front of the hoof, the pedal bone should be parallel with this. However, your horse's pedal bones are rotated upwards. Imagine walking on just your heels with your toes in the air. That is how your horse is effectively walking. The bottom of his pedal bone should be slightly above the parallel to the ground. Your horse's is lower at the back. Traditional remedial farriery will try to correct this by raising his heels and so correcting the angle of the pedal bone. IME this very rarely works and can have a detrimental effect on the hoof structures. I would not want to be putting nails through those hoof walls either. Imprint shoes will offer lots of support and comfort without compromising the structure of the hoof.
		
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Thankyou for explaining!!
I am just looking into imprint shoes now... I like them!!! I can see how they work!! I also agree with keep on banging nails into his hoove  I don't want that either, I'm leaving him as he is for four weeks, purely because I don't want to keep pulling shoes on & off, on & off for the sake...
If I were to have imprints for say, a good few months, is there any reason why he couldn't transfer from these to boots, to barefoot?? x


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## Wagtail (12 November 2012)

L&B said:



			Thankyou for explaining!!
I am just looking into imprint shoes now... I like them!!! I can see how they work!! I also agree with keep on banging nails into his hoove  I don't want that either, I'm leaving him as he is for four weeks, purely because I don't want to keep pulling shoes on & off, on & off for the sake...
If I were to have imprints for say, a good few months, is there any reason why he couldn't transfer from these to boots, to barefoot?? x
		
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No, not at all. They will give him just the right support until the pain settles down and then he could easily go barefoot. I would buy him some boots and get the thick styrofoam pads. You can leave them on pretty much 24/7 to begin with and then start leaving them off for a few hours to give his feet chance to toughen up. With correct trimming, he will hopefully come right for you.


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## CBFan (12 November 2012)

Agree. Wagtail has given you some great advice. I think they key is, while you have decided not to touch his feet for the next 4 weeks, try to get a BF trimmer out to assess him and give you an idea of a rehab programme. It may well be that they can help fight your corner with the vet / farrier too.

keep going with the feeding regime. Use up that tub of TS Hoof supp and then replace with something more suitable. and try and gradually introduce some exercise (even just walking a couple of lengths of the yard to begin with) building up as you feel he can cope...


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## TigerTail (12 November 2012)

Is he bare at the minute? If he's already bare id buy the boots and pads but thats just me


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## Amymay (12 November 2012)

both the vet & the farrier are saying it would be to my boys deterement to try going barefoot just now even with boots & pads
		
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Please, please, please listen to them.


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## Scarlett (12 November 2012)

L&B said:



			I am overwhelmed at the amount of replies I have had trying to spread the hope & let me know I'm not alone in all of this... Being told in not-so-many words that your horse MAY be good for nothing but a tin, isn't nice when I adore him so much!!!

I've seen the Xrays now, which show that my boys feet are EXTREMELY flat & he has INCREDIBLY thin soles... I will add a picture shortly.

For me it seems to be a little tricky atm, idk if that's down to the type of person I am, or what I'm actually being told, but both the vet & the farrier are saying it would be to my boys deterement to try going barefoot just now even with boots & pads (even though I've expressed I'd like that as an option), because his feet are JUST that FLAT they-say that boots just wouldn't give him the support he needs that shoes can.

I'm kind of stuck in a rock & a hard place as to go against vet & farrier advice is a hard thing to do & leaves me feeling very vulnerable. Also my insurance doesn't particularly recognise barefoot trimming as a way forward unless the vet suggests it, in which case I really would be left to fend for myself.
I was told to take him out of shoes would be cruel at this point; until he has grown some heel back and thickened his soles up (where the last farrier butchered him). What do you all think?
		
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I'm very lucky that my vet believes the only way to correct flat, thin soled feet is to remove shoes. He told me with my girl that shoes and wedges can 'buy time' but that to truly cure the issue shoes need to be removed, although his personal preference was to pull shoes and turn away for a period of rest, while I kept my mare moving which he did support and was as pleased as me to see her start to come right.

All 3 of mine had flat, thin soles feet (although only one was xrayed so I'm not sure how they would have compared to yours) and all 3 have been turned around. It takes time and attention to detail but it can be done. IMO Wagtails advice is superb, sort the diet, look into Imprints and go from there.


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## L&B (12 November 2012)

TigerTail said:



			Is he bare at the minute? If he's already bare id buy the boots and pads but thats just me 

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No he's in shoes (shown in Xray) which is what I am going to keep him in for the next, at least 3weeks, just to give his feet time whilst I get these imprints sorted...  THEN I'll allow them to be pulled & imprints put on. But not until I know everything is prepared


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## L&B (12 November 2012)

amymay said:



			Please, please, please listen to them.
		
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I am listening... As I say, the shoes are staying on until he can have imprints, then once his feet have had time to harden up, rest & change for the best in imprints; I will discuss boots & pads next of all


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## Wagtail (12 November 2012)

Good luck, and keep us informed. I'm sure you will get him right.


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## whisp&willow (12 November 2012)

my only addition to this thread is that from your picture he looks to have very long and upright pasterns, which may be a contributory factor in his lameness.  

Hope you can work out a way of making him more comfortable.  I can vouch for a combination of speedibeet, fast fibre and pro balance + minerals-  as changing my youngster to the a fore mentioned has made a huge imporvement in her feet-  they were incredibly flat and soft, but are now much more concave, hard as nails and she is no longer footy on hard surfaces.

good luck!    xxx


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## L&B (12 November 2012)

whisp&willow said:



			my only addition to this thread is that from your picture he looks to have very long and upright pasterns, which may be a contributory factor in his lameness.  

Hope you can work out a way of making him more comfortable.  I can vouch for a combination of speedibeet, fast fibre and pro balance + minerals-  as changing my youngster to the a fore mentioned has made a huge imporvement in her feet-  they were incredibly flat and soft, but are now much more concave, hard as nails and she is no longer footy on hard surfaces.

good luck!    xxx
		
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This has been mentioned before and he does have long pasterns, I knew this when I bought him - he is a very thoroughbreddy thoroughbred  
I asked my vets about it, as I would like to do a bit of jumping for fun (nothing huge) with him eventually and wanted to make sure it wouldn't be to his downfall & they seemed to think so long as he built up plenty of muscle he would be fine, they're not horrendously long, given his breed. 
Thankyou for your well wishes! Nice to know I'm on the right lines with the speedibeet, hi fibre & supps  x


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## Oberon (12 November 2012)

L&B said:



			No he's in shoes (shown in Xray) which is what I am going to keep him in for the next, at least 3weeks, just to give his feet time whilst I get these imprints sorted...  THEN I'll allow them to be pulled & imprints put on. But not until I know everything is prepared 

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I think that's a good plan.


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## TigerTail (12 November 2012)

L&B said:



			No he's in shoes (shown in Xray) which is what I am going to keep him in for the next, at least 3weeks, just to give his feet time whilst I get these imprints sorted...  THEN I'll allow them to be pulled & imprints put on. But not until I know everything is prepared 

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Good plan - dont forget to get the pro hoof rather than the topspec supp too!

And keep us updated with pics


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## L&B (12 November 2012)

Oberon said:



			I think that's a good plan.
		
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TigerTail said:



			Good plan - dont forget to get the pro hoof rather than the topspec supp too!

And keep us updated with pics 

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Thankyou & THANKYOU. I will do  x


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## Bedlam (12 November 2012)

Really interesting thread - and it leaves me with one big question. If you don't trust your vet or your farrier to give you good advice then why don't you change them?

I have to admit that I haven't read ALL the replies, but it does seem that you've sought professional advice and are choosing to go a different way. The X-ray looks really quite bad, and I wouldn't be wanting to do anything without veterinary advice. If you can find a vet and farrier that supports barefoot or imprint then great - but I wouldn't be wanting to go down the road alone, and certainly not with just a trimmer. You'll need X-rays a few months down the line to check progress so you'll need to have your vet on board I would think.

Apologies if I've misunderstood, and I know that you're leaving the shoes on until you can get imprints.


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## Wagtail (12 November 2012)

Bedlam said:



			Really interesting thread - and it leaves me with one big question. If you don't trust your vet or your farrier to give you good advice then why don't you change them?

I have to admit that I haven't read ALL the replies, but it does seem that you've sought professional advice and are choosing to go a different way. The X-ray looks really quite bad, and I wouldn't be wanting to do anything without veterinary advice. If you can find a vet and farrier that supports barefoot or imprint then great - but I wouldn't be wanting to go down the road alone, and certainly not with just a trimmer. You'll need X-rays a few months down the line to check progress so you'll need to have your vet on board I would think.

Apologies if I've misunderstood, and I know that you're leaving the shoes on until you can get imprints.
		
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The majority of vets are not open to the idea of horses going barefoot because all their training centres around traditional shoeing.


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## tallyho! (12 November 2012)

Like wagtail says that is upward rotation of the pedal bone. Quite a severe one at that too. Also the coronary band looks to be higher than the top of the pedal bone which makes it look as if the bone has "sunk". So it's not that the bone has moved, it is the hoof that has moved around the foot and has pulled it upward.

What is happening is that the sole is so thin that it cannot support the weight of the horse and the shoes are literally lifting the hoof wall up and around the pedal bone.

To try and help you picture this, put a piece of card/paper over a bowl and put an elastic band around the edge to secure it. Make a fist. Push your fist down into the bowl on the card. See the card crumple and go into the bowl? This is highly simplistic but is exactly what you are doing to the foot by putting shoes on when he has no strength in his sole or hoof wall. There is nothing to support the sole for as long as he remains in shoes, The only support is the strength of the steel clamping the hoof wall around the internal structures.

Imprints are a very good idea. The BEST thing would be boots and pads to support the SOLE and the internal structures of the foot. It may take 6 months to grow a new hoof capsule but it will be a better connected hoof capsule with a thicker sole.

I don't know how your experts can't see this and tell you to continue to nail a metal ring on the outside wall of his foot when they have both commented on how THIN his soles are. I am so angry right now and if I were you I would have listened to myself and told them both where to go.

Sorry that I come across as angry, however, we do not suffer a shortage of professionals in this country and are at liberty to pick and choose who we want. Nor, are we limited to the amount of information and research available to us laymen. Ultimately it is up to us to keep up the care. As soon as your money runs out they will not come back to help. You will be on your own anyway. 

Also, the fact that he has a long pastern has nothing to do with where his P3 is, it's whats happened to the hoof capsule that is entirely responsible. The bruising is not all to do with your farrier, I think your original farrier actually had it right by trying to support the sole a little bit but he wasn't to know how thin the soles were and the position of his pedal bone. The pain is from his whole weight on the soles that are so thin, they can hardly support him nevermind protect him from whats beneath his foot.


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## Bedlam (12 November 2012)

Wagtail said:



			The majority of vets are not open to the idea of horses going barefoot because all their training centres around traditional shoeing.
		
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I think a lot of good equine vets would take issue with that statement. If I wanted my horses to go barefoot I would find a vet that supported me so that I could be sure of the best professional back up. I wouldn't trust a forum with members that may or may not know what they are talking about or a barefoot trimmer with no professional accreditation or affiliation and therefore no official professional standards to trust. Sorry. Not against barefoot at all, just think that this horse and OP needs some truly professional assistance and there are some very good vets out there who wouldn't poo poo barefoot but would work with her to achieve it if that is actually what would benefit the horse most. But it just might not be the best thing - and surely a good equine vet is the best person to decide that based on the x-rays we've seen?


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## Meowy Catkin (12 November 2012)

Also, the fact that he has a long pastern has nothing to do with where his P3 is, it's whats happened to the hoof capsule that is entirely responsible.
		
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I want to second this. Some TB's do have very long pasterns.


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## Goldenstar (12 November 2012)

I was not surprised when my vet did not support my desision to take some of my horses BF but I was shocked to be told that boots would be too hard ( as in not soft rather than difficult ) for my TB to walk in and when I said I would be using pads they had no idea what pads were and had never seen any.


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## Wagtail (12 November 2012)

Bedlam said:



			I think a lot of good equine vets would take issue with that statement. If I wanted my horses to go barefoot I would find a vet that supported me so that I could be sure of the best professional back up. I wouldn't trust a forum with members that may or may not know what they are talking about or a barefoot trimmer with no professional accreditation or affiliation and therefore no official professional standards to trust. Sorry. Not against barefoot at all, just think that this horse and OP needs some truly professional assistance and there are some very good vets out there who wouldn't poo poo barefoot but would work with her to achieve it if that is actually what would benefit the horse most. But it just might not be the best thing - and surely a good equine vet is the best person to decide that based on the x-rays we've seen?
		
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The problem is finding a vet that would consider alternative methods such as barefoot. I am lucky in that my vet does support it, and it was also my vet that suggested the imprint shoes for my mare. However, the vast majority of vets are not aware of these alternatives. Even my vet was impressed by the fact that I had cut styrofoam pads to fit into my horse's hoof boots. She thought it was a brilliant idea. Vets do use the pads but they are usually taped onto the hoof and slide around being next to useless. The idea of using hoof boots to keep the pads in place had never been encountered by her before (was my sister's idea and she's a barefoot trimmer). Also my vets and farrier had not heard of the wraps that can be used on hooves or the aluminium glue on shoes. They just are not trained in this way.

This forum has been invaluable to me and to others. I am sure MANY horses have been saved through the advice given on here. In fact, the first vet (and farrier) missed the laminitis in my mare, and it was only through discussion on here that I was encouraged to get them out and suggest laminitis myself. So, to pooh pooh taking advice from forums such as this is foolish IMO. Obviously, you soon learn who gives good advice and who to take with a pinch of salt. Always, obviously, you need your vet on side.


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## tallyho! (12 November 2012)

Oberon said:



			I am watching a horse with 'genetically flat' soles who went barefoot a few months ago in desperation.

He has been shod since 4 and is now 10. 

His owner floated the idea of barefoot with a trimmer a few years ago - but the trimmer (correctly) recommended to keep him in shoes "for now" as the soles were so thin and flat. He recommended some dietary changes and the horse appeared better - so the owner went on as normal and thought no more about the hooves.

But the lameness kept coming back.

So, after some other dietary tinkerings, the shoes came off a few months ago. The horse was unhappy for a couple of weeks (I have not been involved in this process ) but has gone from strength to strength - his soles are thickening up 

While there is still blood supply, there is ALWAYS the potential to turn around the sickest hooves.

If I can be any help - let me know .

http://www.hoofrehab.com/jessica.htm

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Please please read Jamie's article about Jessica.


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## Tnavas (12 November 2012)

Something that people need to consider with their thin soled horses - Is what surface are you working them on?

If you constantly ride in an arena surfaced with sand you will find your horse has thin soles. Most sand arenas will have a mix of sharp (Abrasive) and polished sand. Pick up a handful and look at it carefully. Sharp sand has angular edges that help in compressing it into a hard surface, polished sand has a very smooth surface - used alone and the surface will slip all over the place.

Mix them and you have a secure surface with give but also firm to work on.

A prime example of this was the comparrison between my school and a friends school. My arenas were surfaced with bark (post peelings) non of my school horses were shod and had great feet. On the other hand the other school had sand in their arenas, the horses initially unshod knocked out the toes of their hind feet very fast and then started to go unsound as the sand abraided their soles down. They ended up having to shoe everything.

Here in NZ I find horses often get stone bruises, They rarely work on tarmac and when they get on a gravel road they go lame, yet when I worked in the UK we lived in a flint area and some of the tracks we rode on were very stoney yet we rarely had horses with bruising - they often worked on hard surfaces so their feet were tougher.


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## LucyPriory (12 November 2012)

Wagtail said:



			However, the vast majority of vets are not aware of these alternatives. Even my vet was impressed by the fact that I had cut styrofoam pads to fit into my horse's hoof boots. She thought it was a brilliant idea. Vets do use the pads but they are usually taped onto the hoof and slide around being next to useless. The idea of using hoof boots to keep the pads in place had never been encountered by her before (was my sister's idea and she's a barefoot trimmer). Also my vets and farrier had not heard of the wraps that can be used on hooves or the aluminium glue on shoes. They just are not trained in this way.
		
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I've had barefoot horses for over 17 years.  I meet a variety of vets across the South East on my travels.

Number of vets I've met in 17 years and 10's of 1,000's of miles that was aware of boots = less than a handful; number experienced in their use = 0

Maybe I'm unlucky.


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## tallyho! (12 November 2012)

/\/\

Scary!


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## Goldenstar (12 November 2012)

LucyPriory said:



			I've had barefoot horses for over 17 years.  I meet a variety of vets across the South East on my travels.

Number of vets I've met in 17 years and 10's of 1,000's of miles that was aware of boots = less than a handful; number experienced in their use = 0

Maybe I'm unlucky.
		
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No you are not I was amazed that mine had to be shown a pad.


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## deicinmerlyn (12 November 2012)

L&B said:



			Right so, progress so far:

I have sacked my farrier! HOORAH!
I called the vet out today along with the female farrier I spoke about: they timed it between them so they arrived at the same time to discuss what was going on & the best action:

The vet dug around both of his fronts, his left is worse than his right - she hoof tested & he was ouchy all over it, she had a scrape at one part and he bled, she said this was from a very deep bruise, she stopped right away.

She said she cannot say exactly why he is lame but can only suggest he had existing bruising which coupled with bad shoeing & taking too much toe off has made him worse & caused him to become inflamed.
Farrier agreed. She also added the other guy had nailed very close to the white line which you can sometimes get away with in hardier types, but rarely tbs, said his feet are totally unballanced (he is tilting inwards on both feet) and he has an underslung rolled heel as well as his toe being trimmed incorrectly. So in short totally flat footed & wonky.

What I have been told to do is leave the shoes off for 5days to hot poultice each day until only frog juice is showing on the pad; hopefully all of the bruising and any nasties that may be lurking will have been drawn out & gone by then. Then dry poultice for a further 2days. She has given 5 days worth of Bute just to make him that wee bit more comfortable.
Has said on day 6 if he is feeling & looking better to call the farrier back out & put some shoes on.

I asked about barefoot & boots and the farrier said she can work with me towards being barefoot in the future, but his feet are THAT flat and unballanced currently he will probably struggle ballance wise and have lots of cracks/chips (creating more of a problem) barefoot or in boots. She said she saw no reason why he couldn't go barefoot behind though & actually diagreed with the vet when she said she had advised it. Vet said it was cos he was footy on the hard & his legs looked puffy & swelled. Farrier said that if a leg is puffy and filled shoes definitely wouldn't help the problem.

Farrier says he's THAT sore that he probably won't be sound after first shoeing so she wants to just put lightweight fronts on with a finer nail to start with and get him comfortable, if it takes her an hour per shoe just to get them on; then that's what she'll do.
He is to be on box rest for at least the next two weeks & I should start seeing improvement after 3weeks & with a bit of luck should be able to ride again in 4weeks (if I'm lucky).
If there's absolutely no improvement after the third week the vet was talking about X-Rays!!!! (Ahhhhh!! :/)


In your guys experiences what do you think? A decent enough explanation given today? I'm struggling to believe a horse could become this lame through bruising & a bad trim??? Should I be worried it's more do you think?xx
		
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This sounds like the scenario I've just had with my TB. A week ago when I asked my Vet if he could go without shoes he said no he wont manage. this morning he has agreed that a break from shoes is the right thing to do. He's had no fronts on for a week after the same foot soreness after shoeing as your boy. 4 days after the shoes came off he is sound and free moving on concrete and gravel. He is to have his backs off as soon as Farrier can get out.  I debated this for a long while, but wasn't brave enough to make the step until now. I have read all the very useful information on here. Luckily i feed a low starch low sugar diet anyway. I am hoping that giving him a break from shoes will be a positive step. Time will tell. He has been shod since the age of 2.
Good luck and I hope your boy improves soon.


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## L&B (12 November 2012)

All things listened to, and as always appreciated & taken onboard.
To whoever raised the concern that I was not listening to professionals; to reassure you, I am...
Imprints were given as an option to me by both farrier and vet. 
But vet was pushing towards conventional shoes with a wedge & taking more toe back... Farrier has disagreed & thinks imprints will take the pressure off of his hoof & stimulate his frog whilst giving himself a chance to 'toughen up'. Says it will also correct his toe landing first & if fitted correctly encourage heel growth. But mentioned that his imbalance would be a lengthlier fix & I'd be looking at middle of next yr... A good six months. Farrier thinks imprints are the way fwd & after doing research (and I'm talking scholary articles also) I would be inclined to agree, wedges & heavy metals would just be masking an issue & wouldn't sort my boy long term... 
Please don't think I'm not doing my best by my lad, cos honestly, I've been through every emotion in the book... I worship the ground he walks on. 

Please let's not get into a barefoot vs shod debate & turn what has been an incredibly valuable thread to me, sour. X


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## L&B (12 November 2012)

To add. I don't NOW (after seeing xrays) blame my old farrier & we have cleared the air. 
I do think he could have trimmed & shod a million times more sensitively though.


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## ester (12 November 2012)

L&B its definitely nice to hear you have a potential plan, it certainly sounds like imprints might be a good half way house for your lad. I also wouldn't worry about it being a lengthier  fix too much, sometimes they can be better in the long term 

Eta do please keep us updated!


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## maccachic (13 November 2012)

Tnavas said:



			Something that people need to consider with their thin soled horses - Is what surface are you working them on?

If you constantly ride in an arena surfaced with sand you will find your horse has thin soles. Most sand arenas will have a mix of sharp (Abrasive) and polished sand. Pick up a handful and look at it carefully. Sharp sand has angular edges that help in compressing it into a hard surface, polished sand has a very smooth surface - used alone and the surface will slip all over the place.

Mix them and you have a secure surface with give but also firm to work on.

A prime example of this was the comparrison between my school and a friends school. My arenas were surfaced with bark (post peelings) non of my school horses were shod and had great feet. On the other hand the other school had sand in their arenas, the horses initially unshod knocked out the toes of their hind feet very fast and then started to go unsound as the sand abraided their soles down. They ended up having to shoe everything.

Here in NZ I find horses often get stone bruises, They rarely work on tarmac and when they get on a gravel road they go lame, yet when I worked in the UK we lived in a flint area and some of the tracks we rode on were very stoney yet we rarely had horses with bruising - they often worked on hard surfaces so their feet were tougher.
		
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I regulary work on the beach and my horse has never worn his feet down the more tarmac etc I do the more his feet grow, he requires trimming every 4 weeks.  He is a TB and used to have horribly contracted feet they have improved heaps but still not there yet  Before and after pics


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## Tnavas (13 November 2012)

maccachic - is the sand the sharp sand or polished sand.

Most likely it will be polished sand.


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## tallyho! (13 November 2012)

L&B said:



			Please let's not get into a barefoot vs shod debate & turn what has been an incredibly valuable thread to me, sour. X
		
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I certainly am not turning this into a shod v bf debate, I'm discussing very simple mechanics and common sense care. I'mtrying to help you get to a stage where you CAN shoe again, as painlessly as possible for your horse. 

To me shoeing (unless imprints) to THAT foot does not make sense.


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## L&B (13 November 2012)

Tallyho! I wasn't saying you at all  I am thankful for all the help


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## missyclare (13 November 2012)

If this were my horse, I'd pull the shoes and have boots ready, makeshift, so that you can order the right size after the trim and get him padded right away.
I believe I can see what is hurting this horse. Its a negative palmer angle. The nose of P3 has been elevated and the height has forced the weight to go down on the heels, which have pulled forward and collapsed down. The coronary band should be 30 degrees and its not even close. This did not happen with this last trim either. It's been developing for awhile and it will take awhile to fix it. The best way is to trim for the horse, not for the shoe, tweak the trim often and wear padded boots for protection. 







The white lines are existing and the red is balance. I've drawn a line on the ground as well. Look at the position of the white bone in relation to the ground line. The bone is down at the back because of the heels and is also up at the front because of the jammed up/flared toe. This is a negative palmar angle. See how the red lines have the bone ground parallel, or 5 degrees to the positive?
The blue line is marking the flatness of the confirmation of fetlock and heel bulb. Flat and tight. That represents pull on the DDFT, which is the green line. It goes past the navicular bone as it curls under P3 and attaches at the bottom. See how the back white-lined bone, being down at the back is the fulcrum of pull on the whole length of the DDFT? That hurts. 
With the toe getting so jammed up, it constricts the Extensor tendon in the front. Think of it as an imbalanced pulley system  between Extensor and DDFT. 
This kind of DDFT pull, pulls P3 back away from the front hoof wall, causing bubbles of separation inside the hoof wall, so you won't necessarily see a stretched white line at the ground. 
So imagine a hard pull on the DDFT starting where it attaches to P3, then tight around the navicular bone, aggravating it. Now consider the descending weight of the horse and the ground coming up to meet where bone and tendon attache. The shoe won't protect the hoof from this. If you look at the solar shot, you will see the frog is depressed at the apex...smashed flat. Same area. I think the blood that trimmer hit was the tip of the iceberg of an abscess, the huge corium blow kind, cause this pathology will cause this and I suspect that blowing that abscess is going to part of the healing. You need a pad under the bone to support it, prevent permanent damage to it and to make the horse comfortable. 
The shoe in turn, as it is now, attaches to the white line and everything inside of the inner rim of the shoe is hanging through the shoe. No barefoot vs. shoe stuff, just this pic of this shoe on this horse.







Not only are the heels down on this shoe, but the shoe is jamming up the heels at the same time. Look at the shape of the heels bulbs. Look at the bulge of the central sulcis area. (sag) Also see the shape of the central sulcis. The direction of jam has the heel bulbs starting to twist around each other. Can you feel everything falling through the shoe?

This hoof is so similar to a horse I rehabbed, only he was worse. Even the medial/lateral imbalance is identical. The horse could barely make it from trailer to barn, heel bulbs twisted so hard it erupted its own ergot. If you put your hand out flat, palm down, then raise up your fingertips higher than the heel of your hand, then tilt your hand down on the baby finger side, then go pidgeon-toed, because that's what a high inside does, and imagine what it would be like to walk on. Six months later, booted and trimming often and 5 abscesses later, he was a new horse. The last abscess was a huge corium blow. I'd been whittling away at the same abscess and finally hit the Mother Load. Remember, your horse isn't near as bad, but don't be surprised if abscessing is part of his healing as well. The trimmer, may have hit the tip of the iceberg when she drew blood. 
When I got that last big corium abscess to blow on my rehab, I cleaned gently as deep into the hoof that I could safely go. I explored with Q-Tip and went from to the top of the central sulcis at the heel bulbs and followed the passage under the twisted heel bulbs. I thought it would come out of the other side of the twist, but it didn't. It went down deep towards the apex. 24 hours later, huge blow and we were finally done. I will never stop staying that getting squeaky clean is 90% of the answer you seek. 

These feet aren't near as bad as my rehab, but the signs are unmistakable. You need to get balanced as quickly as possible and pad the foot well. If you put shoes back on, you're going to have the same problems with the heels. If you pad under them, the height of pad will support gently and not jam the heels up to his armpits. I would pad from the widest part of the hoof, back to the back of the heel platforms and leave a bare toe in the boot. I would put 2 thicknesses of pads in if it made him more comfortable.

He needs a good trimmer who knows his stuff and does the right thing and keeps doing the right thing, and often enough to stay on top of it and move forward.(4 weeks tops) With the padding and daily 30 minute Promenade Walks on asphalt or the barn aisle, he will start to correct and heal. A flat shoe with a flat trim under it every 8 weeks, is only going to perpetuate the pathology. The shoe has the pathology locked in, the cause of this is the trim under that shoe and its been going on for awhile. 

The boots are for your convenience, the pads are magic for the horse. He's going to need boots 22/7, with air time to dry out for the first while, then only when you ride later, then you won't need them at all. I think he has a very stressed, but very strong back of the hoof and will snap back quickly. 
I wouldn't be riding until you get straightened around. The Easy Care Rx are great rehab boots and padding changed daily using children's foam playground mats. 

I hope this helps you understand better what's going on and why he's sore.


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## L&B (13 November 2012)

Wow! MissyClare! Thanks so much for all that! I had to read some of it two, three, four times to get my head around it (complex stuff) but I think I have a better picture. But I also feel a wee bit stupid as those pics you've so carefully helped me with are from a fair few weeks back (although that doesn't change his foot situ), I had them pulled as soon as I realised how bad they were & padded his feet for 9days (poulticed & then with nappies & vet wrap). Then the vet/farrier recommended we shod him again... Although he was footy to begin with he's become progressively more comfortable in his new shoes. Although after seeing the xrays, they too will be pulled (hopefully for good if I can get my own way) in three weeks, after giving his poor feet a chance to settle... 
Would anyone wish to see pics of his feet taken a week ago? (soles are markedly improved even since then) x


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## Kat (13 November 2012)

missyclare, any chance you would have a look at my hoof pictures? I posted them here: http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=572144 but haven't had any comments. 

Thanks 

Sorry to hijack OP


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## missyclare (15 November 2012)

Definitely post the newer pics. It's always good to see improvement.


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## L&B (20 November 2012)

Okay, thought I'd update as I'm starting to have a wee bit of a wobble...

My lad is due to have his light-steel shoes off on Thursday to try out these plastic imprint ones with gel pads... My current farrier seems to think it's a large possibility that he could be in discomfort again  I'm worried as he's doing SO well in his metals at the mo, improving every day, that I'm nervous...

Farrier says it's for the best though & will give his feet the best chance of healing & growing, where metals won't... Says he will need Bute though still incase he's footsore & his metals don't come off easily :l 
Am I doing him more harm than good? Just needing some reassurance  I so SO SO want him to become sound & I can't afford imprints forever 
xx


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## Wagtail (20 November 2012)

L&B said:



			Okay, thought I'd update as I'm starting to have a wee bit of a wobble...

My lad is due to have his light-steel shoes off on Thursday to try out these plastic imprint ones with gel pads... My current farrier seems to think it's a large possibility that he could be in discomfort again  I'm worried as he's doing SO well in his metals at the mo, improving every day, that I'm nervous...

Farrier says it's for the best though & will give his feet the best chance of healing & growing, where metals won't... Says he will need Bute though still incase he's footsore & his metals don't come off easily :l 
Am I doing him more harm than good? Just needing some reassurance  I so SO SO want him to become sound & I can't afford imprints forever 
xx
		
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The only reason he might be sore is because when you pull his shoes they may cause some trauma. But this may not happen at all, and if it does, then it will only be for a few days. The imprints will actually give more support and protection to his feet than metal shoes will. He may even be instantly more comfortable. The thing to ensure however, is that there are no abscesses brewing before putting them on, as they cover up more of the sole than normal shoes do. It is important to keep them well picked out as stones can easily get lodged underneath. They are harder to pick out than normal shoes, but you do get used to it. Let us know how it goes.


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## L&B (20 November 2012)

Wagtail said:



			The only reason he might be sore is because when you pull his shoes they may cause some trauma. But this may not happen at all, and if it does, then it will only be for a few days. The imprints will actually give more support and protection to his feet than metal shoes will. He may even be instantly more comfortable. The thing to ensure however, is that there are no abscesses brewing before putting them on, as they cover up more of the sole than normal shoes do. It is important to keep them well picked out as stones can easily get lodged underneath. They are harder to pick out than normal shoes, but you do get used to it. Let us know how it goes.
		
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Wagtail! My little ray of light, lol! Thanks for taking the time to comment again  
Thankyou. I will keep everything crossed and I hope to the powers that be he can do it as comfortably as possible!! Noted re: abcesses/stones.
Will let you know how it goes & will get pics/videos too xx


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## TigerTail (20 November 2012)

If the shoe pulling is done carefully it shouldnt hurt, but there is only a tiny wee margin for where the nails go in the first place before they hit live tissue so they need to come out at the same angle they went in.

He will be ok, and you are doing the best for him in the long run


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## Oberon (20 November 2012)

You can make shoe pulling less traumatic by removing the nails individually and keeping packed dirt in the hoof while doing it.


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## L&B (20 November 2012)

Thankyou Oberon. Farrier has said they will do it one by one


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## L&B (22 November 2012)

He's had what can only be described as his moonboots on today. Farrier seems to have done an okay job considering he has pretty much NO hoof to play with... He said the balance issue is going to take such a long time because he never invisaged how little hoof he has to play with & growing some is the current priority.
I walked him up and down on the hard after being done & whilst he was unsure still he seemed to be striding out much better, still not 100% sound though... 

I lost it a wee bit again today, as although I know (or at least I think) what I'm doing is for the best, it keeps dawning on me worst case, if in 6months he's not improved what will I do? What if my insurance runs out? Then what? :'( Urgh...


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## Wagtail (22 November 2012)

That's very positive news. He will probably get slowly better over the next few days.


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## L&B (22 November 2012)

Wagtail I hope so... I'm not holding up v well at the moment. I'm torturing myself with the worst. He has to come sound - doesn't he?


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## kchappers (22 November 2012)

stay positive  he looked better on them today xxx


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## Wagtail (22 November 2012)

L&B said:



			Wagtail I hope so... I'm not holding up v well at the moment. I'm torturing myself with the worst. He has to come sound - doesn't he? 

Click to expand...

Yes. He will be fine. I am sure of it. His problems are likely to be purely very bad foot balance. So many worse things for a horse to have, and still come sound.


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## L&B (23 November 2012)

Well, I let my lad stretch his legs for the first time in his new shoes in an empty school this eve. And after him previously (in his metals) standing there when Ive let him stretch before, doing nothing but shouting for me to bring him in; tonight he was doing some, erm, some VERY fancy moves, consisting of never being on more than two legs at a time & one speed - verybloominfast; most of which with his man bits out! (no Bute I hasten to add).
I was worried he was going to overdo it, but, I truly didn't expect him to carry on that way!! 
Not really sure what else to update with, but I sincerely hope this is the road to recovery...


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## Wagtail (23 November 2012)

L&B said:



			Well, I let my lad stretch his legs for the first time in his new shoes in an empty school this eve. And after him previously (in his metals) standing there when Ive let him stretch before, doing nothing but shouting for me to bring him in; tonight he was doing some, erm, some VERY fancy moves, consisting of never being on more than two legs at a time & one speed - verybloominfast; most of which with his man bits out! (no Bute I hasten to add).
I was worried he was going to overdo it, but, I truly didn't expect him to carry on that way!! 
Not really sure what else to update with, but I sincerely hope this is the road to recovery... 

Click to expand...

Yay! There you go. He is obviously feeling much more comfortable now. No reason at all why he won't be able to progress to barefoot with the help of boots in a few months' time.


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## carthorse (23 November 2012)

Just read all this and you are a star and he is lucky to have found you. Once his feet are good I hope you expect a lively horse.lol


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## L&B (23 November 2012)

Carthorse, Thankyou... I'm just trying my very best. You're so kind for saying


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## wallykissmas (23 November 2012)

That must have been amazing to see him having a loon, just goes to show how good he is feeling. I keep toying with the idea of making mine bare foot but then panic thinking about a trimmer, what if it doesn't work my farrier won't come back, what if he goes lame, he needs to be in work as is afresh youngster etc etc etc, arggghhhhhh runs away and hides from barefoot threads. Your not alone


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## christine48 (23 November 2012)

To me it looks like he has a broken foot/ Pasternak axis, the heel looks too low too.


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## L&B (23 November 2012)

A broken foot? How do you mean? Surely that would have shown up on the billion xrays I've had?


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## Kat (23 November 2012)

She means the hoof pastern angle, not a broken bone.


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## L&B (24 November 2012)

Ohhh I see! Yes! He does have a broken back hoof axis; currently working on getting him built up with his new shoes & a decent diet  x


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## L&B (28 November 2012)

Me again, with yet another dawning question (I know, 'SIGH' right?): 

My lad is looking a wee bit more comfortable in his imprint shoes & gel pads, albeit STILL not 100% a week in (my best friend at the yard has said they can see improvement although I'm finding it hard to notice much considering I see him every day)...

I have my own thoughts on what has happened making him lame (to do with past farriery); but the vets haven't particularly pin-pointed anything except 'he has crap feet'... 
We STILL don't know WHY his lameness occured & it doesn't explain why he was sound for the first 6weeks of me having him - if he's always had crap feet, what triggered this?
So with this in mind; would it be worth having nerve blocks to make absolute certain it's his feet that are the problem? I have had Xrays? Should I be seeing a 100% sound horse in new shoes by now?


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## christine48 (28 November 2012)

L&B said:



			A broken foot? How do you mean? Surely that would have shown up on the billion xrays I've had?
		
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The angle of the Pastern and the front wall of the hoof should be at the same angle (as if you could draw a straight line down the front). I'd like to see the shoe longer & wider at the here. 
Sounds like you've found a farrier to sort him out any way now. Foot imbalance causes so many problems ( been there myself).
Good luck I'm sure you'll get him sorted out.


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## christine48 (28 November 2012)

L&B said:



			Me again, with yet another dawning question (I know, 'SIGH' right?): 

My lad is looking a wee bit more comfortable in his imprint shoes & gel pads, albeit STILL not 100% a week in (my best friend at the yard has said they can see improvement although I'm finding it hard to notice much considering I see him every day)...

I have my own thoughts on what has happened making him lame (to do with past farriery); but the vets haven't particularly pin-pointed anything except 'he has crap feet'... 
We STILL don't know WHY his lameness occured & it doesn't explain why he was sound for the first 6weeks of me having him - if he's always had crap feet, what triggered this?
So with this in mind; would it be worth having nerve blocks to make absolute certain it's his feet that are the problem? I have had Xrays? Should I be seeing a 100% sound horse in new shoes by now? 



Click to expand...

Be patient it's going to take time.


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## L&B (28 November 2012)

christine48 said:



			Be patient it's going to take time.
		
Click to expand...

But what Christine, what will take time, what is it I'm waiting for? 
I don't know what caused the lameness for sure to let it correct itself... Thankyou for all your replies


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## christine48 (28 November 2012)

L&B said:



			But what Christine, what will take time, what is it I'm waiting for? 
I don't know what caused the lameness for sure to let it correct itself... Thankyou for all your replies 

Click to expand...

We have the same problem with one of ours. We are now having a specialist remedial farrier shoeing her but it is going to take a few shoeings. He looks at them walk up and down and looks at the limb flight. He also uses a T bar to ensure the balance of the heel is correct. 
The imbalance caused her to over load the inside of the foot and consequently the inside of the limb. This made her tight in that shoulder and the diagonal hind as she hadn't been using them as we'll as she should have been. 
I suppose it's the same with human athletes, they have gait analysis, see podiatrists and have special trainers to suit them, we don't always take the same care with them.


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## christine48 (28 November 2012)

Just thinking, could he not just have some deep bruising? TBs have flat feet and if he has thin soles there could be some bruising which can take a while to come out.


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## L&B (3 December 2012)

Just thought I'd update as I know a few people have inboxed me wishing me good luck and asking to hear how the imprint shoes are...

Billy was doing fab in them over the past 4/5 days especially. Today he was turned out in a fairly muddy field & pulled them straight off...
Now, once again, hopping lame.
Possibly having some more on tomorrow. Absolutely gutted & heartbroken and wondering if I can carry on... But thought I'd update xx


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## thatsmygirl (3 December 2012)

I can't read all the posts as my phoneis so slow.
Has he got reverse rotated pedal bones?
If so this is what my lad has got and DID have in racing but was never picked up on, when I said he felt wrong I was told that's just him.
If it is rotated pedal bones barefoot really is working fab for my  lad and he's not had a lame day since the shoes come off.


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## L&B (3 December 2012)

Thatsmygirl, all I can say is lucky you  he's hopping lame without shoes, even his plastics that he pulled today. He needs to grow SOMETHING in order to go.barefoot unfortunately  x


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## Oberon (3 December 2012)

Glue on boots left on for a few weeks can be in extreme circumstances. Yes you trade off thrush, but it can be done if there are no other options. Although I'm not sure on why standard boots and pads aren't suitible for this horse in particular?


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## Goldenstar (3 December 2012)

OberBaubles said:



			Glue on boots left on for a few weeks can be in extreme circumstances. Yes you trade off thrush, but it can be done if there are no other options. Although I'm not sure on why standard boots and pads aren't suitible for this horse in particular?
		
Click to expand...

Me neither that's what I would try if OP can't keep the imprints on ordinary but well fitting boots and pads .


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## mightymammoth (3 December 2012)

Just looked at this thread http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=182542 would these be worth a look?http://www.equicast.co.uk/


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## L&B (4 December 2012)

I asked my farrier about the normal boot/pad combo & they said the number of hours he would have to have them on would mean they rub...?? I do believe the farrier is replacing the imprint shoes tomorrow. If he pulls them off again & it meant I'd have to pay, quite frankly he would be having boots & pads. 
As awful as it sounds & I'm not saying he's not worth it - I cannot.afford £200 a pop when insurance don't pay out immediately. X


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## Oberon (4 December 2012)

Yes the boots may rub if left on a long time. But you can minimise this with a few tricks and he'd only need them for a couple of weeks, max.

A couple of minor rubs aren't life threatening


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## L&B (4 December 2012)

Not to sound dim, but how would it mean he could only have them on a couple of weeks max? 
He's had these imprint shoes with gel sole pads on for almost 2wks & now they're off he's in hopping again (its absolutely awful to see)? 
Only asking cos I'm led to believe plastic shoes & gel pads are just an expensive more permanent (not in this dire case, lol) version of boots & pads? X


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## TigerTail (4 December 2012)

Can you get pics of his feet before the next lot of glue ones go on?

To be THAT lame the farrier has surely overtrimmed or he has bad thrush or something to be causing such pain 

Cant he have boots and pads to be out in and be on deep shavings at night?


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## Kat (4 December 2012)

L&B I had this discussion with the vet and farrier and decided that since I wouldn't stand a cat in hells chance of keeping imprints on turned out in the mud we have at the moment I may as well go with boots and pads. I wouldn't be able to turn out in the field in boots and pads either, so if she has to stay in with just exercise in hand/under saddle and turnout in the school then she may as well have boots and pads as they are cheaper, provide plenty of support and protection and allow the foot to grow without the risk of pulling a load of horn off if the shoe comes off. 

My mare is barefoot on a deep bed for about 21 hours a day. At first she was just having turnout in boots on sand and walking out in hand in the boots, now we are riding in boots and turning out on sand bare. She grew absolutely shedloads of foot, giving the farrier lots to work with when he trimmed her. She looks incredible in the boots, striding out actively, the vet was quite amazed by the difference, she looks better in the boots than she ever did in shoes. They have stayed on while she has hooned about and bucked in the school. 

They cost me £70 a pair or thereabouts, and had I not got on with them I could have sold them on without making much of a loss. I have been so impressed with the boots. My farrier also thought that they were a great choice (and he has recommended them to other people in the past), as did the vet who hadn't really experienced them before.


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## L&B (4 December 2012)

I will certainly try to get pics this morn, they will only be from my phone albeit, but I can try...x


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## L&B (4 December 2012)

Thanks KKat... I think what I am going to do is... If the farrier comes out today & puts on his front pair again for nothing, I will go with them for the six weeks they were supposed to be on, then after the 6wks I will go with boots & pads. 
If he takes a look and decides its going to cost then I will get boots & pads on order right away.x


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## TigerTail (4 December 2012)

Yay for pics 

Boot research - good place to start here http://phoenixhorse.myfastforum.org/about1073.html


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## Kat (4 December 2012)

The saddlery shop website is really useful too. 

I went for cavallo simples, nice and cheap, easy to use, and suited my mare's round feet. Then I used the 4lb EPS pads from here: http://www.equinepodiatrysupplies.co.uk/Pads/

As recommended by Lucy Priory on here. They cushion and support the sole. 

I bought my boots on ebay as it was cheapest as the seller did free postage, but if you want ones made by easyboot then the saddlery shop do a try before you buy service which is worth considering. 

If his feet are really very compromised you may need to leave him in on a deep bed until your boots arrive, for the first few weeks mine didn't leave her deep shavings bed without her boots on.


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## Goldenstar (4 December 2012)

Is the horse good in the stable?
What facilities are there on the yard that you might use ? Is there a school ?
The horse is in a tough place now if he won't keep these shoes on its boots or what ?
In the mud boots are not ideal either but at least you can find them and reuse them yourself and they may rub but as OB says up to a point you can manage this .
If he's comfortable in good boots and pads you have hope , a way forward if the shoes won't work.
But it may well be management intensive for you it might be a lot of stable time for the horse over winter with you leading round and putting him in the school to play short bits of turn out .
As for vets and farrier commenting on boots be sure they are commenting on something they know something about my vet a very respected equine one clearly had little knowledge about modern boots when we got into a discussion on them.
And a bit of hope a TB horse i knowwho although older ( in his teens ) has been  unsound for a long time with foot trouble his owner came to me a couple of months ago similar story to you horse lame feet falling apart nothing to nail to imprints not staying on owner at wits end .
She had seen my BF tribe out and about and asked me advice ( personally I hate this it's one thing to stand up to the vet and farrier yourself another to get others to do so).
Que OB,s diet stuff and a class in BF the GS way horse out of shoes now in boots and pads after two months the horse is sound in boots and pads and being ridden in the school and is sound she is amazed he was been sore for years there is still hope remember that.


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## thatsmygirl (4 December 2012)

My horse was going to be pts, barefoot ( boots/pads) were his last option and I wish I had tried it in the first place. 
The start was a stuggle as the feet ESP the heel area was very weak but I was back in the saddle after a month. Hasn't had a lame day since his feet have been left alone.

When I say left alone I mean left alone, even a trim put my horse back to square one so iv not let anybody touch his feet since and he self trims on the rds and he's 100% sound. 
Maybe this is a route to try.
My lad also grow lots of feet once bare


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## paddy555 (4 December 2012)

L&B said:



			I asked my farrier about the normal boot/pad combo & they said the number of hours he would have to have them on would mean they rub...?? I do believe the farrier is replacing the imprint shoes tomorrow. If he pulls them off again & it meant I'd have to pay, quite frankly he would be having boots & pads. 
As awful as it sounds & I'm not saying he's not worth it - I cannot.afford £200 a pop when insurance don't pay out immediately. X
		
Click to expand...

I've come to this thread a bit late and have read all of it. I have no experience with imprint shoes but I have a fair bit with boots and pads. My question would be how much experience have your vet and farrier had using boots and pads to rehab horses? Not much would be my guess. 

Looking back over 19 pages I am really struggling to see why he wasn't booted and padded back in October. I see from your last couple of comments that you are now going to give these a go so hopefully you will make some progress. Someone commented about him having a deep bed at nights so he only had to be booted in the day time which sounds like an excellent idea. 

A few pages back you asked what would happen when the insurance etc ran out and the horse was still sore. Simples. He will have padded boots and start to make progress but it is so depressing that boots and pads seem to be the final stage in rehabbing horses when they could be the first choice. 
Good luck with him.


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## Slightlyconfused (4 December 2012)

Our lami is booted, he doesn't need the pads anymore. For turnout and ridden work as he had a bad abcess that came out of three holes. Farrier couldn't get shoe on so vet said boot him up and if he needs it pads and wraps. 

For the first month he did, then he just needed the wraps......now three months on I have to buy the next size up as he had changed shape so much. He can now be ridden without the boots on and while I'm waiting fir the new ones to arrive he is turnt out bare. He is sore over stones but fine on flat. It will just be a case of hardening up. He was walking on just his sole three months ago and now has a hoof wall. 

I've had him on fast fibre, a bit of happy hoof( he is on metformin for IR and its the only way he will eat his tablets) and pro balance plus hoof supplement from progressive earth. 
My farrier is really impressed with the supplement, says its one if the best he has seen. And at 26.99 for 72 days supply my pocket is happy too


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## Kat (4 December 2012)

paddy555 said:



			I've come to this thread a bit late and have read all of it. I have no experience with imprint shoes but I have a fair bit with boots and pads. My question would be how much experience have your vet and farrier had using boots and pads to rehab horses? Not much would be my guess. 

Looking back over 19 pages I am really struggling to see why he wasn't booted and padded back in October. I see from your last couple of comments that you are now going to give these a go so hopefully you will make some progress. Someone commented about him having a deep bed at nights so he only had to be booted in the day time which sounds like an excellent idea. 

A few pages back you asked what would happen when the insurance etc ran out and the horse was still sore. Simples. He will have padded boots and start to make progress but it is so depressing that boots and pads seem to be the final stage in rehabbing horses when they could be the first choice. 
Good luck with him.
		
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Just to re-iterate - OP I had my girls shoes taken off about two weeks before you posted this thread because she was sore in shoes - very similar. 

My vet did not tell me to get boots. The vet recommended box rest and in a few weeks imprint shoes until her feet are strong enough to take nail on shoes. I asked the vet about boots because I was worried about how my horse would cope with box rest, and I was keen to be able to walk her out as soon as possible. The vet said that if I wanted to try them I could, but didn't seem to think it would change the plans at all. 

However when she saw how comfy my mare was in the boots and pads she was VERY impressed. She hadn't seen them before and didn't know what to expect. We haven't bothered going down the route of imprints because she is doing so well in the boots and realistically she wouldn't be able to do anything in imprints that she couldn't do in boots, but boots will not damage her feet further and can easily be taken off and replaced. 

I went down the boots route based on advice from here and the phoenix forum and from a friend on the yard my vet would not have recommended them. Few vets seem to recommend them, even speaking to one who had more experience of boots they seemed to be a bit reluctant to recommend them, and unaware of the range that is available or things like the try before you buy services. 

Interestingly my farrier has been quite positive about boots and has recommended boots to clients in the past.......


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## L&B (4 December 2012)

Just a quick reply to say THANKYOU once again for all of the support & to say I'm off up the yard just now to try & get a few pics of his feet (bare).

My farrier came today & has advised to leave him on box rest until Thursday (when he visits again) on a very deep bed, which I have lovingly prepared this afternoon...  This has been said to give his feet time to rest from pulling the glue off & to dry them out again.
He has then offered on Thursday either imprints & gel pads again - which he will do (reduced) again, or to glue on an aluminium metals with gel pads (for more hard wear) for free, OR I could chose boots & pads to order myself...

The *only* thing the farrier has said about this is & I quote: 
'You can if you want to but I personally think we need more hoof on there and for him to be sounder before you go down that route'; could I have thoughts on this please?

I don't want anyone on here underestimating quite how little hoof he has, he has NONE & extremely flat feet as well as his imbalance. Are boots going to give him the real-time support he needs?
And if I take them off of an evening when he's in bed for the night to let his feet 'breathe' and to prevent rubbing, is he going to be in agony again & recovering each time they go on, off, on, off, on, off? 
Our yard is lovely & I have an immense amount of support, but what we lack is facilities -- the fields are knee deep in mud and stones/bricks/rubble. The entire yard is concrete and the school is sand.... With these things as options I'm wondering what good any of that is going to do for his feet? 

Thanks once again for all of these excellent replies. I'm not ignoring any of them, just exploring options... xxxxxx


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## Wagtail (4 December 2012)

I have my mare in imprints. When she lost them a few weeks ago I relented and had her fitted with ordinary nail on shoes, thinking she was as sound as a pound in the imprints so could probably now go with normal shoes. How wrong was I? She quickly went lame and came down with laminitis. Pads and boots helped with this (she had them on 24/7 once I had the metal shoes removed) for three weeks on box rest and they never rubbed. But she did not come fully sound, I think because of the lami. I had her refitted with imprints and she went sound without bute after four days and has been sound ever since (around 3 weeks). I am keeping her in the imprints until the insurance runs out, and then will attempt to get her back barefoot with the help of boots and pads. For her, the imprints are better than boots and pads, but far too costly to keep putting on her!


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## Oberon (4 December 2012)

L&B said:



			Not to sound dim, but how would it mean he could only have them on a couple of weeks max? 
He's had these imprint shoes with gel sole pads on for almost 2wks & now they're off he's in hopping again (its absolutely awful to see)? 
Only asking cos I'm led to believe plastic shoes & gel pads are just an expensive more permanent (not in this dire case, lol) version of boots & pads? X
		
Click to expand...

Every part of the hoof has a job to do.

Nature didn't put anything on the bottom of the hoof that wasn't meant to touch the ground.

The frog and the back of the hoof are particularly important. You have the digital cushions and the lateral cartilages internally and you have the frog and heels externally. When the back of the hoof is strong and well formed - the horse can land heel first (which is widely recognised as being important for the health of the joints, tendons and ligaments).

When the back of the hoof is weak and contracted (internally and externally) then the horse will not be able to land heel first. It will land toe first and this means the tip of the coffin bone is constantly jamming into the ground. Ouch.

The horse is designed to move and travel around 10 - 20 miles a day from the second day of life. Everything is designed to work best when moving and touching the ground. The action of moving creates circulation and thus (with the hoof) stimulates creation of more tissue. When in touch with the floor, the sole in particular becomes thicker in order to do it's job of protecting the coffin bone. 

It is found time and time again that 'genetically' thin soles will become magically thicker with a decent diet and some time out of shoes.

Shoes lift the hoof off the ground. This is great BUT you are taking the stimulation away from the underside and (importantly) the back of the hoof. You are also loading the whole weight on the horse on the wall and it wasn't designed to work alone. It's supposed to work in partnership with the sole, frog, bars and heel.

Lack of stimulation to the frog means it withers and shrinks. The heels contract and start to run forward.

The Imprints allow some stimulation to the frog and some of the peripheral loading to be eased. As far as shoes go - I like Imprints. But it's still patching an unhealthy hoof and lifting it off the ground. That's not the same thing as growing a healthy hoof and laying down lots of tissue. So when he loses a shoe - you are still at square one .

The boots and pads allow the whole of the hoof to be in play and so become strong.

Given a decent diet - I would expect a high risk horse with soles so thin they give under thumb pressure, to only need to *live* in boots for around two weeks. 

The horse should be fine bare in the stable on a soft bedding. The boots and pads are there when moving around on hard ground/rocks and they fill in for that weak sole.

If a horse is still so thin at the sole that they still need boots after two weeks - I would be reviewing the diet and then giving another two weeks. I would expect a horse to be able to walk around the stable, yard and field with nothing on the hooves after 4 weeks at the very worst.

Hard/rocky surfaces and ridden work without boots may take longer .

It's all about growing a HEALTHY hoof. Allow at least 9 months in total. Once it's healthy - you can reshoe if needed.


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## Goldenstar (4 December 2012)

Is the horse on any pain relief ?
My vet has no issue with giving quite long term pain relief in the horse is in sort of chronic pain in these circunmtances she offered it to me for my TB and my cob when we removed the shoes even though she was a BF flat earther ( she's coming round it's hard to argue with a sound TB who looks like he's had a foot transplant.) as it was I did not need it.


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## L&B (4 December 2012)

Oberon, inboxed you & I THANK you as usual...

So, if I was to go for boots:- does anyone know if I go off of my own back & pay for something the vets haven't necessarily recommended; (ie: Billy's pulled his expensive £200 imprint shoes off after having them on just over a week & I DO NOT want to pay out again, lining my vets/farriers pocket, so I'm thinking of boots & thick pads, which insurance don't cover)... 
WOULD I then have invalidated my insurance claim by going against vet recommendation? Or would I simply just have pi**ed my vet off? (can't say I'm fussed about the latter lol).xx


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## Scarlett (4 December 2012)

Just quickly - a friend has just pulled shoes on her EXTREMELY flat footed TB, farrier also (helpfully) trimmed the horse and left him hopping lame. She put boots on, instant relief, horse has improved drastically each day and now out every day walking over the concrete yard and in the sand school without the boots on and looks totally comfortable. The boots just offered the protection the feet needed at the time.

Your concrete yard and sand school will be a massive bonus when your horse is ready


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## tallyho! (5 December 2012)

Boots are gods gift to horsekind!!!

Get some leather cavallos here:

http://www.horseandmore.co.uk/Cavallo-Simple-Horse-Hoof-Boots.html

And THESE pads:

http://www.equinepodiatrysupplies.co.uk/Pads/EPS-7lb-Pads

Use a knife to cut to shape to fit INTO the boots.

This costs less than £100 and will last you YEARS.

Regarding the on/off/on/off issue... if he has a nice deep bed then he won't be in pain. Put the boots on before you leave the stable, and take them off in the stable. 

If it makes you feel better, I used mine for turnout in hard ground for about a week. They are not sealed, they have gaps in the boot for breathability and water escape they are SOFT leather. I did not have any trouble with hooves rubbing off.

Just don't use them in deep mud.


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## Wagtail (5 December 2012)

I wish they sold the cavellos individually as my girl has odd sized front feet. Looks like I will have to stick with the equiboots. I need to get some new ones as was using my gelding's boots on her and one is too big.


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## Wagtail (5 December 2012)

My TB gelding has been extremely foot sore (hopping lame) since the removal of his shoes in June. Last time the farrier was here I decided not to have him trimmed and so he went for twelve weeks without a trim. Gradually, over that time he has become sound and I had him trimmed yesterday. The farrier didn't take too much off and he has remained completely sound. The farrier said that his soles have really thickened up. It's such a shame that I can't ride him as he is sounder than he's ever been.


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## amandap (5 December 2012)

paddy555 said:



			I see from your last couple of comments that you are now going to give these a go so hopefully you will make some progress. Someone commented about him having a deep bed at nights so he only had to be booted in the day time which sounds like an excellent idea.
		
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I agree. 



paddy555 said:



			but it is so depressing that boots and pads seem to be the final stage in rehabbing horses when they could be the first choice.
		
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I agree again. 

Best of luck. Also do look into the diet aspect seriously and remember time is an important aspect. Sore hooves don't heal and get stronger overnight. x

ps.Often sore shod hooves don't have enough structure and the trim for shoeing removes even more. Just a roll on the base of the wall is enough if something has to be trimmed.


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## paddy555 (5 December 2012)

L&B said:



			Oberon, inboxed you & I THANK you as usual...

So, if I was to go for boots:- does anyone know if I go off of my own back & pay for something the vets haven't necessarily recommended; (ie: Billy's pulled his expensive £200 imprint shoes off after having them on just over a week & I DO NOT want to pay out again, lining my vets/farriers pocket, so I'm thinking of boots & thick pads, which insurance don't cover)... 
WOULD I then have invalidated my insurance claim by going against vet recommendation? Or would I simply just have pi**ed my vet off? (can't say I'm fussed about the latter lol).xx
		
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I doubt either your vet or farrier have the experience to recomend and supply boots. Unless they have dealt with boots and rehabbed horses that way in the past they are unlikely to know which ones or which pads so yes I suspect you will have to buy your own. Cost as someone said will be around £100 all in. 

I would go with the cavallos as someone has just said. 

Go on to the equine podiatry site that Tallyhoho has suggested. E mail or ring the owner who is very knowledeable. Make sure she understands your problem and take some advice. When she has your measurements she will be able to help with sizing etc and answer any other queries you will have. 
This site is probably one of the cheapest for hoof boots and certainly the place to go for pads. 

You asked a question about support and more hoof. Look at the boots and the thickness of them. Look at the pads and the thickness of those. Your feet will be very well protected.

The advantage of boots is that you can take them on and off when you chose. If your horse cannot manage on his bed at night to start with then boot him as well. As he starts to manage take them off. Boot him and start him walking on your yard. As his feet become less sore he will start to move. Movement will produce growth. 
With boots you will be in control. On days as he gets a little better you will be able to take them off for short periods and let him lose on mud. 
You will work out very quickly how to use the boots to provide protection and when to back off with them to let him develop his feet. 
Obviously don't let anyone trim them. 
As I see it this will cost you £100. I appreciate you are being funded by insurance for imprints etc but I woul have thought this was worth a risk financially, even if you have to pay yourself. I cannot really see that your farrier or vet can object to you taking 10 days out of their treatment to try something different.

If you want more comments on the cavallos then go onto the phoenix group if you are not there already. There are several users of the cavallos and posts on there which will give you some information on using them.


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## TrasaM (5 December 2012)

L&B..following this thread with interest. We've got a horse on our yard who is now extremely sore on 3 feet. It's gotten progressively worse over the past two weeks. He had his front shoes done a week ago but was lame in his LF and BR beforehand. He's had his back shoes off but is now hopping from foot to foot on the backs and can only use the toe on the LF.. It's upsetting to watch as hes in so much pain and can barely cope with soft ground. Not looking good but owner has not been to see him although she has been told how he is. I was almost in tears yesterday because if he was mine I would have had the vet out and put something ..Anything! On his poor feet to ease his pain. It's not looking good. I don't understand some owners ..he's a beautiful boy and she lves him but what good is love without care.
 Well done for looking after yours so well and trying to find a solution.  Friend uses boots for her boy when he's been a bit tender and they seem to work really well. Ive even hacked him out with 4 boots on and he coped beautifully.    Fingers crossed your chap comes sound.


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## be positive (5 December 2012)

Baubles said:



			L&B..following this thread with interest. We've got a horse on our yard who is now extremely sore on 3 feet. It's gotten progressively worse over the past two weeks. He had his front shoes done a week ago but was lame in his LF and BR beforehand. He's had his back shoes off but is now hopping from foot to foot on the backs and can only use the toe on the LF.. It's upsetting to watch as hes in so much pain and can barely cope with soft ground. Not looking good but owner has not been to see him although she has been told how he is. I was almost in tears yesterday because if he was mine I would have had the vet out and put something ..Anything! On his poor feet to ease his pain. It's not looking good. I don't understand some owners ..he's a beautiful boy and she lves him but what good is love without care.
 Well done for looking after yours so well and trying to find a solution.  Friend uses boots for her boy when he's been a bit tender and they seem to work really well. Ive even hacked him out with 4 boots on and he coped beautifully.    Fingers crossed your chap comes sound. 

Click to expand...

If a horse is in that much pain he needs a vet, who is responsible for his daily care? if he is on livery the YO should get the vet, I would just tell the owner the vet is coming, it is a duty of care.


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## Kat (5 December 2012)

Wagtail said:



			I wish they sold the cavellos individually as my girl has odd sized front feet. Looks like I will have to stick with the equiboots. I need to get some new ones as was using my gelding's boots on her and one is too big.
		
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You could buy two pairs (cavallos are pretty cheap in the scheme of things) and then sell the spares (I bet you'd get decent money on ebay for a single unused boot). Or you could post on the for sale/wanted section of phoenix horse and see if anyone else is in a similar position and would be willing to go halves with you.

You could also contact Cavallo and some of the stockists and tell them what you are after, you never know they might be able to oblige.


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## Wagtail (5 December 2012)

KristmasKat said:



			You could buy two pairs (cavallos are pretty cheap in the scheme of things) and then sell the spares (I bet you'd get decent money on ebay for a single unused boot). Or you could post on the for sale/wanted section of phoenix horse and see if anyone else is in a similar position and would be willing to go halves with you.

You could also contact Cavallo and some of the stockists and tell them what you are after, you never know they might be able to oblige.
		
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Thank you. That's a good idea.


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## Angua2 (5 December 2012)

cavello's were my boot of choice for my TB who had a sole you could flex with your thumbs when we embarked on our "grow new feet" project.  Don't really use them now but I keep them "just in case"


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## ester (5 December 2012)

be positive said:



			If a horse is in that much pain he needs a vet, who is responsible for his daily care? if he is on livery the YO should get the vet, I would just tell the owner the vet is coming, it is a duty of care.
		
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agreed, I find it pretty shocking that noone has got a vet to at the very least supply pain relief to said horse.


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## Kat (5 December 2012)

tallyhohoho! said:



			Boots are gods gift to horsekind!!!

Get some leather cavallos here:

http://www.horseandmore.co.uk/Cavallo-Simple-Horse-Hoof-Boots.html

And THESE pads:

http://www.equinepodiatrysupplies.co.uk/Pads/EPS-7lb-Pads

Use a knife to cut to shape to fit INTO the boots.

This costs less than £100 and will last you YEARS.

Regarding the on/off/on/off issue... if he has a nice deep bed then he won't be in pain. Put the boots on before you leave the stable, and take them off in the stable. 

If it makes you feel better, I used mine for turnout in hard ground for about a week. They are not sealed, they have gaps in the boot for breathability and water escape they are SOFT leather. I did not have any trouble with hooves rubbing off.

Just don't use them in deep mud.
		
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The 4lb pads are thicker and softer, so should be better for the first couple of weeks. I'm no expert but I was told to use them for my bruised and sore horse by Lucy Priory. 

I cut them to shape using a carving knife. 

My girl is easily rubbed, the binding on a numnah rubs her and she has to have a soft cord girth to avoid rubs but her cavallos haven't rubbed since day 1 and she has worn them for turnout in a very wet sand school! 

If they rub you can put a mans sock over the hoof and pull it up higher than the top of the boot to protect from rubs. 

The cavallos are leather so will soften too. Once you are satisfied with the fit treat them with leather balm to help soften them (Ko-cho-line will do) and then allow your horse to wear them in the wet and keep them on to help them soften and mould to shape. 

The cavallos are great if they fit your horse's foot, measure up to see, the simple is better for round feet and the sport for longer feet, but you may find that a different brand suits better. 

I did lots of reading and didn't buy the gaiters as the feedback generally seemed to be that cavallo gaiters are rubbish and socks work better. 

I found a supplier that was a bit cheaper than the others and offered next day delivery on ebay too. 

Lots of advice on choosing the right boots here http://www.thesaddleryshop.co.uk/MeasureHoofBoots.aspx


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## TrasaM (5 December 2012)

ester said:



			agreed, I find it pretty shocking that noone has got a vet to at the very least supply pain relief to said horse.
		
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& be positive.. I completely agree. Owner is off tomorrow and YO ( small private yard) said they will get the vet. BUT I would have done it much much sooner.  Horse also possibly has shivers. If he's not dealt with by tomorrow I will make a scene.


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## Kat (5 December 2012)

L&B said:



			Oberon, inboxed you & I THANK you as usual...

So, if I was to go for boots:- does anyone know if I go off of my own back & pay for something the vets haven't necessarily recommended; (ie: Billy's pulled his expensive £200 imprint shoes off after having them on just over a week & I DO NOT want to pay out again, lining my vets/farriers pocket, so I'm thinking of boots & thick pads, which insurance don't cover)... 
WOULD I then have invalidated my insurance claim by going against vet recommendation? Or would I simply just have pi**ed my vet off? (can't say I'm fussed about the latter lol).xx
		
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I told the vet I was thinking of getting some, and she was skeptical but didn't object, she seemed to think they would just do for a bit of hand walking/turnout in the early days, but once she saw my mare in them she was quite happy for her to have them and stopped suggesting imprints. Far from being pissed off she was quite interested in the boots.


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## L&B (5 December 2012)

Hmmm interesting ... Tried to call Saddlery shop for help but just an automated service saying to fill a form out online :l how did a lot of you get to speak to someone for help??x


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## amandap (5 December 2012)

Here's another place to phone for advice and supply of  boots and pads. http://www.equinepodiatrysupplies.co.uk/


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## paddy555 (5 December 2012)

L&B said:



			Hmmm interesting ... Tried to call Saddlery shop for help but just an automated service saying to fill a form out online :l how did a lot of you get to speak to someone for help??x
		
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I always use equinepodiatry supplies. firstly they are considerably cheaper and the pads come from there. Also the owner is very knowledeable about barefoot and I think would give the best advice. The mobile no is on the top of their "home" page. She will usually ring back pretty quickly if she is not there and if you leave a message.


I have found vets are interested in boots once they have actually seen boots and pads. The problem is that unless they have clients rehabbing horses using padded boots or they are involved alongside trimmers using boots many just don't seem to have had the chance to see any especially those who do more general vet work.


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## Wagtail (5 December 2012)

paddy555 said:



			I always use equinepodiatry supplies. firstly they are considerably cheaper and the pads come from there. Also the owner is very knowledeable about barefoot and I think would give the best advice. The mobile no is on the top of their "home" page. She will usually ring back pretty quickly if she is not there and if you leave a message.


I have found vets are interested in boots once they have actually seen boots and pads. The problem is that unless they have clients rehabbing horses using padded boots or they are involved alongside trimmers using boots many just don't seem to have had the chance to see any especially those who do more general vet work.
		
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I agree. My vets were fascinated by my boots and pads when my mare had lami. Both of them asked to have a close look at them and asked where I got them from and looked at the indentation marks where the pads had moulded to my mare's feet. I think that both will go away and suggest them to other clients now.


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## Kat (5 December 2012)

L&B said:



			Hmmm interesting ... Tried to call Saddlery shop for help but just an automated service saying to fill a form out online :l how did a lot of you get to speak to someone for help??x
		
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I didn't I just read all their online info, and spent a lot of time googling for further information. 

What specifically do you need help with? Someone on here, or on the phoenix forum might be able to help.


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## L&B (5 December 2012)

I have spoken to the lady at equ' podiatry supplies who was ever helpful & v.friendly - I would recommend.
She has advised the Cavallo boots with 4lb pads, so I believe we will go for that. 
However, he is 125mm from toe to buttress & 130cm at the widest part. 
What does everyone think fit wise?:

It is either Size 2 which are: 118-125mm
OR Size 3 which are: 126-133mm

?????????


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## Kat (5 December 2012)

Whereabouts do you live L&B? PM if you prefer, I have size three cavallos that you could look at try on if you happen to be close.


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## tallyho! (5 December 2012)

Since you are expecting more foot to grow, go for the Size 3.


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## L&B (5 December 2012)

KK, have inboxed...  very kind offer.

Tallyho! Hmmm, I'm more concerned with the tightness around the pastern/coronet?? You think?


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## Slightlyconfused (5 December 2012)

I would go with size three. 

Lami pony was in size two simples three months ago but is now in a side three sport has he has changed shape. 

My vet recommended me the cavellos as he has had good results with them before.


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## Kat (6 December 2012)

L&B said:



			KK, have inboxed...  very kind offer.

Tallyho! Hmmm, I'm more concerned with the tightness around the pastern/coronet?? You think?
		
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Your lad is a TB isn't he? In which case even the size two won't be tight around the pastern. Even if they fit they will be kind of like wellies rather than long riding boots. They stay on fine though. 

The crucial thing is how snug they are around the bottom of the hoof.


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## L&B (7 December 2012)

Yes that's also an issue... I don't know whether I've measured up right. Did you get my inbox KK? x


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## Kat (7 December 2012)

L&B said:



			Yes that's also an issue... I don't know whether I've measured up right. Did you get my inbox KK? x
		
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Sent you my mobile number, I couldn't find you on facebook...


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## L&B (7 December 2012)

Haven't received anything


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## tallyho! (7 December 2012)

L&B said:



			KK, have inboxed...  very kind offer.

Tallyho! Hmmm, I'm more concerned with the tightness around the pastern/coronet?? You think?
		
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Don't be concerned about pastern/coronet. When you see the boot you will see that the fit is all about the bulb/heel/foot. 

If the boot were to be tight around the pastern then the foot will not move correctly and you will get rubbing sores.

Think about how a horses fetlock joint moves. The boot gives plenty of clearance for the movement of the foot and the joint itself. The foot is not like ours, it needs to be loose to accommodate tendon action and flexion.

Trust the boot. It is very well designed.


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## Kat (7 December 2012)

L&B said:



			Haven't received anything 

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Ok will PM again, could be because I was using my phone when I sent it!


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