# Position of the head in dressage movements



## Lola13 (3 October 2015)

Hello everyone, 
I am training dressage for some time and I am very confused with the head position of the horse in dressage. The texbooks describe and show a difference between gaits types but most of the riders ride every single movement with head on the vertical or even slightly bellow. Some ride with slightly in front of the vertical but thats it.  

What texbooks show:
http://www.sustainabledressage.net/collection/true_collection/trot_continuum.gif

What I see on the pictures of the competitions:
https://horsesportnews.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/dujardin-valegro4-rau_0.jpg
http://static1.squarespace.com/stat...bb56befba43/1438714918481/f2.jpg?format=1000w

Could anyone explain why there is no difference in head positions in different movements, and why there is so much heads bellow the vertical?


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## pip6 (3 October 2015)

As a very non-dressage person, I stopped trying to understand head carriage as I was brought up being told correct position was with poll highest point and in so many photos it seems as though (in showing as well) people are rewarded for having the crest the highest point which would surely infer the horse was overbent?


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## alice.j (3 October 2015)

Sylvia Loch, in one of her books, says that the poll should be the highest point, and that the head should be perpendicular to the neck - e.g. the neck and the head should make a 90 degree angle (at the front of the head, not the cheeks). Being broken at the 3rd (aka having the crest highest) can actually lead to joint and muscle problems, as well as being awkward for the horse; imagine always walking around with your back bent, it's not comfortable!
Some showing judges are apparently starting to reward those with polls highest and put down over bent horses, so I've been told.


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## Lola13 (3 October 2015)

I agree with both of you, I hope there will be a change, it is so sad that there is so few riders nowdays who ride correctly like real dressage masters like Nuno Oliveira used to.

I love this picture so much: http://www.dany-lahaye.fr/Images/oliveirabw.jpg beauty, grace, elegance, correctness and a healthy, relaxed horse.


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## Goldenstar (3 October 2015)

In the shot of CD and Valegro in piaffe 
He's showing a slightly incorrect postion at the top of the neck ( but only if you the be all and end all of everything is where the horse has it's poll ) but the rest of what's going on is lovely.
So in that second in time it was less than 'correct '
Horses are living breathing moving things and a fixed not moving head carriage would not be desirable or comfortable for the horse .
In the second shot the horse in very short in the neck and over bent and has ducked behind the contact and you can clearly that the connection through the rein has been lost .
 I think it's a young horse on a big occasion for it and they often duck behind and go short in the neck when they are tense and weakness often leads to less than perfect outlines as the horse learns and develops .
I am interested OP do you think the rider of the grey horse is training the horse to go like that ?
Because that's a huge assumption from a picture.
There's a big difference between riding a horse and looking at a picture someone's drawn .


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## alice.j (3 October 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			In the shot of CD and Valegro in piaffe 
He's showing a slightly incorrect postion at the top of the neck ( but only if you the be all and end all of everything is where the horse has it's poll ) but the rest of what's going on is lovely.
So in that second in time it was less than 'correct '
Horses are living breathing moving things and a fixed not moving head carriage would not be desirable or comfortable for the horse .
In the second shot the horse in very short in the neck and over bent and has ducked behind the contact and you can clearly that the connection through the rein has been lost .
 I think it's a young horse on a big occasion for it and they often duck behind and go short in the neck when they are tense and weakness often leads to less than perfect outlines as the horse learns and develops .
I am interested OP do you think the rider of the grey horse is training the horse to go like that ?
Because that's a huge assumption from a picture.
There's a big difference between riding a horse and looking at a picture someone's drawn .
		
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This is a really good point, and why I didn't address those pics directly - it's hard to tell a horse's entire way of going from one snapshot in time. From what I've seen of Valero (admittedly not much, I love doing dressage but watching it, well, it's not always that interesting!) he generally seems to have a really nice frame, but sometimes seems to be broken at the third. 
I'm not an expert by any means, and while I know the theory behind a lot of things, in practice I can't always get it! So I'm not going to judge other people, but just try and ride how I feel I should be riding


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## Lola13 (3 October 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			In the shot of CD and Valegro in piaffe 
He's showing a slightly incorrect postion at the top of the neck ( but only if you the be all and end all of everything is where the horse has it's poll ) but the rest of what's going on is lovely.
So in that second in time it was less than 'correct '
Horses are living breathing moving things and a fixed not moving head carriage would not be desirable or comfortable for the horse .
In the second shot the horse in very short in the neck and over bent and has ducked behind the contact and you can clearly that the connection through the rein has been lost .
 I think it's a young horse on a big occasion for it and they often duck behind and go short in the neck when they are tense and weakness often leads to less than perfect outlines as the horse learns and develops .
I am interested OP do you think the rider of the grey horse is training the horse to go like that ?
Because that's a huge assumption from a picture.
There's a big difference between riding a horse and looking at a picture someone's drawn .
		
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That second in time? Valegros poll is always lower, excepts some rare times in extended trot. 

Fixed head position is just what they are trying to achieve, same in extended, collected etc as well as piaffe, passage etc. And you are right, it is not comfortable for the horse, that is why I asked why are they doing it. 

No I dont think she is doing it on purpouse during the test, I think it is the result of the "deep, low and round" exercises which are for me gentler rollkur. 

There are so manny younger riders doing the "deep, low and round" exercise and it affects the carriage badly and also some movements. In my country Ive seen people on higher levels not able to do simple streching because the horse automaticly goes very deep behind the vertical as soon as the reins loosen up a bit, and their horses also have lower polls just like Valegro. I guess after some thinking, that is why the head of the horse always stay in the same position, so they cover up the bad training. (In my country foreign judges look at deep, low and round" and its consequences like something really bad, I dont understand when a grand prix rider does it its great.)

Carl Hester covers it up well but because he has a lot of experience, and Charlotte cannot cover it up because she doesnt have that amount of experience.

There are pictures not just drawings of old masters and the carriage of the horse doesnt look even similar. 

http://www.europeanhorsemanship.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/horsemen-nuno-oliveira.jpg


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## Goldenstar (3 October 2015)

They are trying to achieve a still head postion not fixed they will be flexing the poll and influencing a horse neck all the time .
While I am not in anyway saying that you don't see too many horses over bent I do struggle to understand the obsession with horses heads in threads on here .
TBH when I am riding at my best I will rarely be thinking about where the horse has it's head .


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## Lola13 (3 October 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			They are trying to achieve a still head postion not fixed they will be flexing the poll and influencing a horse neck all the time .
While I am not in anyway saying that you don't see too many horses over bent I do struggle to understand the obsession with horses heads in threads on here .
TBH when I am riding at my best I will rarely be thinking about where the horse has it's head .
		
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I expressed myself wrong then, they are trying and achieving to have same head position in all the movements, why I am asking this, because of everything I have been learning about dressage, even the certified dressage textbooks for dressage licences have descriptions of all the different movements with head position described for each one of them, and they are different. And I can find hardly any correct examples nowdays except old masters. Head position is very important just like positions of any other part of the body. Why is leg position important and head is not?

Same head position from movement after movement:








Dressage then, and dressage now, for me de-evolution.


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## Goldenstar (3 October 2015)

That's your view , personally I don't think everything was rosy in the past it's just the issues where different and the exposure of the top riders was less .
And I am old enough to remember the dressage 'past '.
I strive live in the moment with my own horses I train them as I like and don't worry about much else .


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## ycbm (3 October 2015)

In the shot of CD and Valegro in piaffe 
He's showing a slightly incorrect postion at the top of the neck ( but only if you the be all and end all of everything is where the horse has it's poll ) but the rest of what's going on is lovely.
So in that second in time it was less than 'correct .
		
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I completely agree it's just a moment in time. But I don't agree that  the rest is lovely. The foreleg which is on the floor shows that he is rocking his weight forward onto his forehand. His bum is in what I think of as  the  'dog with worms' tuck, giving a false impression that he is taking  more weight on his hocks than he is. If he was truly supporting himself on his hocks at that moment in time, his foreleg would be perpendicular to the floor and his head would be higher. As a moment in time, it's a moment of less than top quality piaffe.


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## Lola13 (3 October 2015)

ycbm said:



			I completely agree it's just a moment in time. But I don't agree that  the rest is lovely. The foreleg which is on the floor shows that he is rocking his weight forward onto his forehand. His bum is in what I think of as  the  'dog with worms' tuck, giving a false impression that he is taking  more weight on his hocks than he is. If he was truly supporting himself on his hocks at that moment in time, his foreleg would be perpendicular to the floor and his head would be higher. As a moment in time, it's a moment of less than top quality piaffe.
		
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Moment in time?

This picture shows different steps in her piaffe, so not a moment, it is entire piaffe:








The rules from British Dressage Members Hand Book:









One example of good head position:


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## Lola13 (3 October 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			That's your view , personally I don't think everything was rosy in the past it's just the issues where different and the exposure of the top riders was less .
And I am old enough to remember the dressage 'past '.
I strive live in the moment with my own horses I train them as I like and don't worry about much else .
		
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Not just my oppinion, if something is against the rules of the rulebook than it is a step backward. I am not saying everything was rosy in the past, but most top riders were riding correctly.

Because people nowdays train their horses as they like we are in this position, if you are in dressage sport you should follow the rules, they are not here for no reason.

Even if you ride horses for pleasure that doesnt mean everything you think of is ok or the horse, old masters CREATED dressage, and not for the sake of sport but horses fitness and better communication, and it should be used primarely for that. If you bypass the rules for a quicker,easier (false) results, than you are not doing real dressage.


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## merlinsquest (3 October 2015)

Maybe you should offer Carl & Charlotte some help.....


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## Lola13 (3 October 2015)

merlinsquest said:



			Maybe you should offer Carl & Charlotte some help.....
		
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Hahahahahaha... I hope in a few years I will be able to show with example it can be done in a right way even in modern dressage


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## Matafleur (3 October 2015)

Lola13 said:



			Moment in time?

This picture shows different steps in her piaffe, so not a moment, it is entire piaffe:








The rules from British Dressage Members Hand Book:









One example of good head position:








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I find it rather ironic that you have selected a picture of Adelinde and Parzival to demonstrate "good head position".  I don't have anything against Adelinde, I think she did extremely well and is a very good rider, but there are some very unflattering pictures of her floating around if you take a dim view of BTV!!!


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## Lola13 (3 October 2015)

Matafleur said:



			I find it rather ironic that you have selected a picture of Adelinde and Parzival to demonstrate "good head position".  I don't have anything against Adelinde, I think she did extremely well and is a very good rider, but there are some very unflattering pictures of her floating around if you take a dim view of BTV!!!
		
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I agree, this picture is from the page with unflattering pictures also, this picture is "moment in time" where that one looks good in comparison of all the other pictures. I had difficulty finding a modern rider who rides correctly by the dressage rules, so I posted this picture. I only said that it is an example of how a head approximately should be positioned. I didnt say it shows a rider who follows the rules. Next picture is how her riding really looks like: http://horsetalk.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/adelinde-Cornelissen-parzival2.jpg


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## chestnut cob (3 October 2015)

One thing to remember is that no one is claiming these horses are perfect.  If the judges considered their way of going to be perfect they would all be getting 10s for every movement.  However they don't which reflects the fact that they don't always perform absolutely correctly.  They all still have more to learn and can improve.


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## Lola13 (3 October 2015)

chestnut cob said:



			One thing to remember is that no one is claiming these horses are perfect.  If the judges considered their way of going to be perfect they would all be getting 10s for every movement.  However they don't which reflects the fact that they don't always perform absolutely correctly.  They all still have more to learn and can improve.
		
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Noting in this world is perfect, but this amazing and wonderfull horses could move CORRECTLY and HEALTHY if their owners/trainers/riders only cared, and they could really earn their high points. For me a rider which rides a horse low and deep doesnt deserve 9s and 10s, actually they dont deserve to compete at all but thats another story. Look at the beginners sometimes which ride in collection, you will rarely see overbent horse, so why is a grand prix rider unable to achieve correct collection, a base of complete dressage. Because of their bad training methods which serve to hurry up the proces. Everybody used to admire Totilas (and it is justified because he is such a special wonderfull horse) but very few saw also how poor this wonderfull creature is (even after harsh rollkur pictures) until he started braking down. 

If you had the opportunity to ride/own a wonderfull and talented horse like this

[Content removed]

Would you allow/do this?

[Content removed]

And this to him, just to hurry up the training process?








And do you really think this pictures above are because the horse is not perfect? 

Only thing I see is a terribly insensitive rider who only has his mind set on one thing, a medal/ribbon.


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## tallyho! (3 October 2015)

Lola13 said:



			Hello everyone, 
I am training dressage for some time and I am very confused with the head position of the horse in dressage. The texbooks describe and show a difference between gaits types but most of the riders ride every single movement with head on the vertical or even slightly bellow. Some ride with slightly in front of the vertical but thats it.  

What texbooks show:
http://www.sustainabledressage.net/collection/true_collection/trot_continuum.gif

What I see on the pictures of the competitions:
https://horsesportnews.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/dujardin-valegro4-rau_0.jpg
http://static1.squarespace.com/stat...bb56befba43/1438714918481/f2.jpg?format=1000w

Could anyone explain why there is no difference in head positions in different movements, and why there is so much heads bellow the vertical?
		
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Guys guys, I think we all know it all just needs chucking out.

OP, IF you are training for the first time and you are getting confused, please just stick to classical masters and Sylvia Loch is a good place to start. At least her books quote the old masters and you can then study at your leisure. Go to classical clinics, spend your money in things you believe in and things that feel right in your heart. Not the things that get high marks in a test. The people judging in the FEI are as bad as the poor riders so you will never learn anything noble there.

People will criticise. The fact is, the FEI are trying to raise the profile of dressage and losing it's followers. The best way, is to walk away. Dressage to he public is boring. That is why they are bringing in the circus acts to draw in the money. Leave the tent. It's clearly time to start again.


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## Lola13 (3 October 2015)

chestnut cob said:



			One thing to remember is that no one is claiming these horses are perfect.  If the judges considered their way of going to be perfect they would all be getting 10s for every movement.  However they don't which reflects the fact that they don't always perform absolutely correctly.  They all still have more to learn and can improve.
		
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One more thing on the quality of the horse, actually a picture.

First picture: elite grand prix horse in top form, one of the best riders in the world, two bits, years of daily training using most modern methods.- OVERBENT

Second picture: chunky older horse who spends most of his time eating, average rider, no bits and bridle, some training on liberty using clasical methods.- COLLECTION


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## Lola13 (3 October 2015)

tallyho! said:



			Guys guys, I think we all know it all just needs chucking out.

OP, IF you are training for the first time and you are getting confused, please just stick to classical masters and Sylvia Loch is a good place to start. At least her books quote the old masters and you can then study at your leisure. Go to classical clinics, spend your money in things you believe in and things that feel right in your heart. Not the things that get high marks in a test. The people judging in the FEI are as bad as the poor riders so you will never learn anything noble there.

People will criticise. The fact is, the FEI are trying to raise the profile of dressage and losing it's followers. The best way, is to walk away. Dressage to he public is boring. That is why they are bringing in the circus acts to draw in the money. Leave the tent. It's clearly time to start again.
		
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Thank you for your insight, I agree on everything you said. I am asking and saying all this because I have become forced to do classical modern dressage to support my family (I used to do only dressage on liberty) and I am scared that modern cruel methods will be expected of me, I am trying to find arguments that will in a nice way say "no bloody way I will ever do that to a horse". If it will still be expected o me to use the methods I will walk away, and find anything else to do, just not that.


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## Illusion100 (4 October 2015)

For me, I want a horse to be slightly above the vertical.

On the vertical is ok with me.

I detest behind the vertical. I can't fathom why it became 'fashionable'. Disgrace imo.


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## shortstuff99 (4 October 2015)

Illusion100 said:



			For me, I want a horse to be slightly above the vertical.

On the vertical is ok with me.

I detest behind the vertical. I can't fathom why it became 'fashionable'. Disgrace imo.
		
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Why is slightly above the vertical okay but slightly behind not? Both are as incorrect as each other and both would cause 'physical' issues? Is it people think above the vertical causes less issues? When if you look at it above would probably cause worse issues as the back would hollow which meant it wouldn't carry a rider properly leading to spinal damage/issues. Just my musings really.


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## ycbm (4 October 2015)

shortstuff99 said:



			Why is slightly above the vertical okay but slightly behind not? Both are as incorrect as each other and both would cause 'physical' issues? Is it people think above the vertical causes less issues? When if you look at it above would probably cause worse issues as the back would hollow which meant it wouldn't carry a rider properly leading to spinal damage/issues. Just my musings really.
		
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The horse's skeleton is built for it to carry its nose in front of the vertical. Horses at liberty spend very little time with the face at or behind the vertical. I doubt if it's damaging, but I'm not sure anyone has proved that being mildly overbent is either, and it is now part and parcel of modern dressage, rightly or wrongly.


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## shortstuff99 (4 October 2015)

Yes but in the wild a horse is not carrying a rider on it's back. A hollow horse can not carry a rider correctly which in turn should be damaging.


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## Goldenstar (4 October 2015)

shortstuff99 said:



			Yes but in the wild a horse is not carrying a rider on it's back. A hollow horse can not carry a rider correctly which in turn should be damaging.
		
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Yes that's very true .
The most important thing you can do for your ridden horse is learn how to develop it's back well .
Oh it's the second the first is learn how to look after it's feet .


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## paddi22 (4 October 2015)

good article in the irish field this week about taking the emphasis away from the head and concentrating more on the core muscles of the horse
http://www.theirishfield.ie/horse-sense-on-the-bit-explained-190608/


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## ycbm (4 October 2015)

shortstuff99 said:



			Yes but in the wild a horse is not carrying a rider on it's back. A hollow horse can not carry a rider correctly which in turn should be damaging.
		
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Nose out does not automatically mean hollow.  Showjumpers are not normally hollow as they bascule over a fence but you won't see  them jumping well and overbent.


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## Lola13 (4 October 2015)

Illusion100 said:



			For me, I want a horse to be slightly above the vertical.

On the vertical is ok with me.

I detest behind the vertical. I can't fathom why it became 'fashionable'. Disgrace imo.
		
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Great for you, your horse and the future of dressage, wish you lots of luck


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## Lola13 (4 October 2015)

ycbm said:



			The horse's skeleton is built for it to carry its nose in front of the vertical. Horses at liberty spend very little time with the face at or behind the vertical. I doubt if it's damaging, but I'm not sure anyone has proved that being mildly overbent is either, and it is now part and parcel of modern dressage, rightly or wrongly.
		
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ycbm said:



			Nose out does not automatically mean hollow.  Showjumpers are not normally hollow as they bascule over a fence but you won't see  them jumping well and overbent.
		
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It is true that it is not natural for the horse to be behind vertical, and it is true nose out doesnt mean hollow back, if the hind end in engaged well with a head sligtly in front of the vertical it is a great collection. But the extent of how much the head should be in front of vertical depends on types of movements.


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## crabbymare (4 October 2015)

I think there is far too much focus on the head and its position. if people thought more about how the back end was working the head will slot into a position thats correct for the individual horse and its conformation


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## Goldenstar (4 October 2015)

crabbymare said:



			I think there is far too much focus on the head and its position. if people thought more about how the back end was working the head will slot into a position thats correct for the individual horse and its conformation
		
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That's exactly right and will mean that horses will work at times with their heads in less than perfect positions .


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## Lola13 (4 October 2015)

shortstuff99 said:



			Yes but in the wild a horse is not carrying a rider on it's back. A hollow horse can not carry a rider correctly which in turn should be damaging.
		
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shortstuff99 said:



			Why is slightly above the vertical okay but slightly behind not? Both are as incorrect as each other and both would cause 'physical' issues? Is it people think above the vertical causes less issues? When if you look at it above would probably cause worse issues as the back would hollow which meant it wouldn't carry a rider properly leading to spinal damage/issues. Just my musings really.
		
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Goldenstar said:



			That's exactly right and will mean that horses will work at times with their heads in less than perfect positions .
		
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Modern dressage methods (that lead to less perfect positions) have been proven to be very damaging to the horse, I have seen manny autopsy pictures of modern dressage and showjumping horses and they are hearbraking. I dont want to post the autopsy pictures or articles, I dont want to ruin anyones day. But they have found: Partial crushing of partoid salivary gland, injury of atlanooccipital membrane, damage on cervical spine and spinal muscles, severe recrudescent necrosis of the muscles etc. etc.  Something to think about when we look at videos and pictures of modern dressage.


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## Goldenstar (4 October 2015)

Lola13 said:



			Modern dressage methods (that lead to less perfect positions) have been proven to be very damaging to the horse, I have seen manny autopsy pictures of modern dressage and showjumping horses and they are hearbraking. I dont want to post the autopsy pictures or articles, I dont want to ruin anyones day. But they have found: Partial crushing of partoid salivary gland, injury of atlanooccipital membrane, damage on cervical spine and spinal muscles, severe recrudescent necrosis of the muscles etc. etc.  Something to think about when we look at videos and pictures of modern dressage.
		
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And do you think horses lives were perhaps better in the duke of Newcastles days ?.

Horses move their heads when they are being ridden .
You appear to lumping this in with extreme training methods like rollkur where the horses head is fixed in an extreme position .
I personally don't mind my horses moving their heads with in the bounds of good manners .
If a young horse drops off the bit , they do this sometimes , I just keep riding the rest of the horse and what choice the horse takes .


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## Lola13 (4 October 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			And do you think horses lives were perhaps better in the duke of Newcastles days ?.

Horses move their heads when they are being ridden .
You appear to lumping this in with extreme training methods like rollkur where the horses head is fixed in an extreme position .
I personally don't mind my horses moving their heads with in the bounds of good manners .
If a young horse drops off the bit , they do this sometimes , I just keep riding the rest of the horse and what choice the horse takes .
		
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This topic is about horses head position not keeping the horses through the ages, we all know what the situation was and is. 

People here use the word rollkur without een knowing what it means. Deep low and round is the same thing just easier to look at and doing a little less damage.


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## Lola13 (4 October 2015)

crabbymare said:



			I think there is far too much focus on the head and its position. if people thought more about how the back end was working the head will slot into a position thats correct for the individual horse and its conformation
		
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Because of this kind o oppinions the dressage has gone and it is going in a wrong way. You try working out regularely in this position for a year.


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## paddi22 (4 October 2015)

If you relate it to humans though, doing yoga classes I know the position of my head should be a certain way to do the moves correctly and engage all the muscles correctly, but sometimes you do just drop the head or place it at the wrong angle if you are tired, distracted 
 or finding a move hard.  Or you lose balance for a second and your head moves to help you rebalance youself.   I always think of that when I'm riding horses, it's a constant conversation, striving for the best but accepting where the horse is at that day. 

During any yoga class you could take several pictures at different times and depending on that second you could say I either had a great head position in yoga or I was a disaster.   Are snapshots really any use to judge? should it be a few seconds of video at a very minimum to get a more complete impression of how everything is working.


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## Lola13 (4 October 2015)

paddi22 said:



			If you relate it to humans though, doing yoga classes I know the position of my head should be a certain way to do the moves correctly and engage all the muscles correctly, but sometimes you do just drop the head or place it at the wrong angle if you are tired, distracted 
 or finding a move hard.  Or you lose balance for a second and your head moves to help you rebalance youself.   I always think of that when I'm riding horses, it's a constant conversation, striving for the best but accepting where the horse is at that day. 

During any yoga class you could take several pictures at different times and depending on that second you could say I either had a great head position in yoga or I was a disaster.   Are snapshots really any use to judge? should it be a few seconds of video at a very minimum to get a more complete impression of how everything is working.
		
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Comparing yoga with rollkur it means the horse would need to stay in halt, try running for an hour like that, and even doing some gimnastics every day for a year.


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## paddi22 (4 October 2015)

Lola13 said:



			Because of this kind o oppinions the dressage has gone and it is going in a wrong way. You try working out regularely in this position for a year.








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It's probably me being stupid but i would have thought crabbymare was in agreement with you? in that if people stopped fixating on the head and got the back end working it would be more beneficial for the horse? Is your reply disagreeing with this?


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## Lola13 (4 October 2015)

paddi22 said:



			It's probably me being stupid but i would have thought crabbymare was in agreement with you? in that if people stopped fixating on the head and got the back end working it would be more beneficial for the horse? Is your reply disagreeing with this?
		
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Not at all paddi, I apologise I have read the post incorectly, I agree we should always strive for the best with a constant conversation with a horse. I do believe quite a few professional riders are trying to do this, but after the rollkur damage has been done and the horse is no longer capable to carry himself correctly, even when a rollkur is not asked. The other riders just keep on riding an overbent horse without trying to correct it so they could achieve better obediance and faster "results". 

If people stopped doing the hyperflexion, achieving real collection from the back end, through the back and body, to the head, that would be correct and beneficial to the horse, and the head wouldnt be overbent.


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## shortstuff99 (4 October 2015)

ycbm said:



			Nose out does not automatically mean hollow.  Showjumpers are not normally hollow as they bascule over a fence but you won't see  them jumping well and overbent.
		
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If you look at pictures of show jumpers right at the pinnacle of the bascule you will see that their heads are pretty bang on the vertical. They tend to only be in front on the landing side of the bascule or the take off (unless the horse has jumped hollow).


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## crabbymare (4 October 2015)

paddi22 said:



			It's probably me being stupid but i would have thought crabbymare was in agreement with you? in that if people stopped fixating on the head and got the back end working it would be more beneficial for the horse? Is your reply disagreeing with this?
		
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I was sort of in agreement to the point that there is too much interest in  the position of the head but it seems that Lola is also over fixated on that and seems to think that all dressage riders use rollkur and all of them are incorrect. the marks judges give for each movement are only to a 10 which is excellent and not perfect. plus they are only able to judge what is in front of them in the actual test and not the training methods - although there are frequent disagreements as to how correct the judges are in  their marking. I dont think anyone wants to see horses ridden using rollkur and few people will agree that it is correct in any way or good for the long term wellbeing of the horse. but there are more people now starting to try and train in ways that are better for the horse and its long term health which is partly due to Carl/Charlotte and the way  they train their horses which among other things includes turnout  and hacking plus their horses are not always ridden in a double bridle. Look on the thread I saw a week or so ago about a german lady who is trying to get the german fn and the fei to act and stop the misuse of tack and nosebands and also try to remember there are more flies caught with honey.... I think its far better to show the good in pictures and praise people who are trying to improve the training and way of going/wellbeing of their horses so that others strive to be like them and hopefully gradually more and more horses will be better off for that


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## Lola13 (4 October 2015)

crabbymare said:



			I was sort of in agreement to the point that there is too much interest in  the position of the head but it seems that Lola is also over fixated on that and seems to think that all dressage riders use rollkur and all of them are incorrect. the marks judges give for each movement are only to a 10 which is excellent and not perfect. plus they are only able to judge what is in front of them in the actual test and not the training methods - although there are frequent disagreements as to how correct the judges are in  their marking. I dont think anyone wants to see horses ridden using rollkur and few people will agree that it is correct in any way or good for the long term wellbeing of the horse. but there are more people now starting to try and train in ways that are better for the horse and its long term health which is partly due to Carl/Charlotte and the way  they train their horses which among other things includes turnout  and hacking plus their horses are not always ridden in a double bridle. Look on the thread I saw a week or so ago about a german lady who is trying to get the german fn and the fei to act and stop the misuse of tack and nosebands and also try to remember there are more flies caught with honey.... I think its far better to show the good in pictures and praise people who are trying to improve the training and way of going/wellbeing of their horses so that others strive to be like them and hopefully gradually more and more horses will be better off for that
		
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I agree there are a lot of good things some riders are doing regarding turning out the horses and hacking. But it is not a thread about that. I am trying my best to find some professional riders who ride correctly, without any luck (I need more time I will find some) I have found some nice pictures on facebook of my facebook friends riding beautifly but I cannot post those pictures here. So now I am doing a scetch of a picture of a correct collected trot with an outlines of the pictures I have found on facebook.

My goal is to show positive examples, the problem is I need to post first the negative ones so people could see the difference, and it is much harder to find positive ones tese days.


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## Goldenstar (4 October 2015)

Lola 13
I understand extremely well what rolkur is.
It's driving the horse with strong driving aid into a fixed and extreme head position which is then sustained .
It's not the same as the horse being over bent .
It's not the same as influencing the horse to work in a LL or LLD position. 
It's not the same as allowing a horse to move it's head and make a mistake and ignoring it because your focus is on the hind legs and the lateral bending in the body


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## Lola13 (4 October 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			Lola 13
I understand extremely well what rolkur is.
It's driving the horse with strong driving aid into a fixed and extreme head position which is then sustained .
It's not the same as the horse being over bent .
It's not the same as influencing the horse to work in a LL or LLD position. 
It's not the same as allowing a horse to move it's head and make a mistake and ignoring it because your focus is on the hind legs and the lateral bending in the body
		
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Using and old outdated definitions of rollkur is not even a beginning of the understanding of the problem.

First when the public saw the extremely flexed necks they called that hyperflexion, ater some research the modern "deep, low and round" joined the deffinition, after some more research false collection we see nowdays also joined the deffinition. These two joined the deffinition after looking the whole body of the horse, not just the head, it starts with the head but spreads through the whole body. Just like true collection starts with the back and spreads through the whole body.


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## Goldenstar (4 October 2015)

Lola13 
You have decided that everything gets dumped into being rolkur .
I do not share this belief .
I ask you again to share with us why it's such a terrible thing to ignore a horse who puts it head into an incorrect postion and allow it time to correct it's self because the rider is correctly focused on other things .
Training is not principally about the where horses head is .
Why are you so fixated on this ?


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## crabbymare (4 October 2015)

Lola13 said:



			Just like true collection starts with the back and spreads through the whole body.
		
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This is where I disagree with you. for me collection does not start with the back it starts from the hindlegs. I start working the horse with the question what do you actually collect when you get to that stage of training? my answer is energy and therefore I always look at the back legs as the source of the energy and from the start the horse must therefore work from its hindlegs. all the hands do is hold the energy and direct it into the movements that are required for the level of training the horse is at. a horse can work ldr without having its head on its chest and can work from behind over its back to that position with loose swining paces. not all ldr is rollkur or incorrect


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## Lola13 (4 October 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			Lola13 
You have decided that everything gets dumped into being rolkur .
I do not share this belief .
I ask you again to share with us why it's such a terrible thing to ignore a horse who puts it head into an incorrect postion and allow it time to correct it's self because the rider is correctly focused on other things .
Training is not principally about the where horses head is .
Why are you so fixated on this ?
		
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I didnt decide that, the scientists decided that. I am against putting all of the above under a same name that has already been used, because people that way will keep defending the incorrect riding. They saw a few times horses head on its chest during riding and deciced in their minds only that is cruel because it looks extremely unnatural, and because some people who benefit from dressage riding, no matter how incorrect it is, have told them that only if a horses neck is on its chest is incorrect, so with them pretty much anything goes.

The scientists didnt one day wrote "Atention, atention! now every unnatural overflexing of the horses head is hyperflexion", they uncovered over the years all the different signs of hyperflexion that show in different parts of the body, and they have been shown in also "deep, round and low" and incorrect "collection".

Training is about where every part of the horse is, so excluding one, any one if simply wrong. 

I have already written some of the efects of the incorrect "collections" : Partial crushing of partoid salivary gland, injury of atlanooccipital membrane, damage on cervical spine and spinal muscles, severe recrudescent necrosis of the muscles etc. etc.


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## Goldenstar (4 October 2015)

Straight question .
What do you do when a young horse drops behind the contact because it's inconsistent with it's balance .


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## Lola13 (4 October 2015)

crabbymare said:



			This is where I disagree with you. for me collection does not start with the back it starts from the hindlegs. I start working the horse with the question what do you actually collect when you get to that stage of training? my answer is energy and therefore I always look at the back legs as the source of the energy and from the start the horse must therefore work from its hindlegs. all the hands do is hold the energy and direct it into the movements that are required for the level of training the horse is at. a horse can work ldr without having its head on its chest and can work from behind over its back to that position with loose swining paces. not all ldr is rollkur or incorrect
		
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English is my second language so I apologise for some errors, I didnt mean it starts from his back, but from the back end/hind end/hind legs. Also I didnt say all LDR is incorrect, I said modern LDR is incorrect.


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## Goldenstar (4 October 2015)

Lola13 said:



			English is my second language so I apologise for some errors, I didnt mean it starts from his back, but from the back end/hind end/hind legs. Also I didnt say all LDR is incorrect, I said modern LDR is incorrect.
		
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But what do you mean ?
Modern LDR is it wrong to do it now but it was not wrong to it before .
I have been doing LDR for more than forty years I don't do it any differently now .


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## crabbymare (4 October 2015)

Lola13 said:



			English is my second language so I apologise for some errors, I didnt mean it starts from his back, but from the back end/hind end/hind legs. Also I didnt say all LDR is incorrect, I said modern LDR is incorrect.
		
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I had not realised that it was not your first language. the thing with ldr is that the incorrect use of it is modern in that its relatively few (5?) years that its been used as an excuse for hyperflexion in that since the outcry about hyperflexion a few people have said what they are doing is not hyperflexion (not allowed under rules) its ldr (allowed under rules) so its not really "modern ldr" in reality its some people pretending they are doing ldr to get around the rules


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## ester (4 October 2015)

Lola13 said:



			This topic is about horses head position not keeping the horses through the ages, we all know what the situation was and is. 

People here use the word rollkur without een knowing what it means. Deep low and round is the same thing just easier to look at and doing a little less damage.









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These pictures don't seem to show anything as they aren't even in the same phases, and the hyperflexion pics don't match charlotte's trot at all IMO. 
Out of Adelinde and parcival and charlotted and valegro I know which ones I would rather watch!

I'm also never sure if there is one correct way of dressage, I think the classical has been spilt from the competitive side for quite a long time, especially when actually some rolkured horses appear to be able to keep going at the top of their game for a reasonable amount of time. - Salinero competed at the olympics aged 18... 
Personally I have seen plenty of dressage under guise of 'classical' that I don't like to watch, and plenty under the 'modern' that I don't like either. 

You are wrong to state that everyone thought Totilas amazing.


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## Lola13 (4 October 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			Straight question .
What do you do when a young horse drops behind the contact because it's inconsistent with it's balance .
		
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First I try not to let that happen. Training from the ground in mostly straight lines without draw or side reins is the key for that, but with a collection in mind, not letting horses head or hind legs to be all over the place. Also working little by little with a young horse is another solution. If a horses head drops, I loosen the contact and ask for a horse to search for the contact, not having in mind the perfect collection at that moment, but bringing a horse to a balanced movement. After that ask for a collection again.


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## Goldenstar (4 October 2015)

Why would you be asking a young horse to collect ?


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## ester (4 October 2015)

Yes I thought the question wasn't about collecting, rather what you would do in a normal trot if a young horse dropped behind the contact.


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## Regandal (4 October 2015)

Fascinating discussion,  but I'm not sure what the op is after.  I am a leisure rider who has neither the talent or inclination to  school to a high level. If I can get my horse to'swing' through his back,  I'm happy.  I suppose horse training is influenced by apparently successful techniques but I can't see that rolkur has had any impact on my sporadic instruction.  I think there is a move away from harsh methods,  but it is a slow process.


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## Lola13 (4 October 2015)

ester said:



			These pictures don't seem to show anything as they aren't even in the same phases, and the hyperflexion pics don't match charlotte's trot at all IMO. 
Out of Adelinde and parcival and charlotted and valegro I know which ones I would rather watch!

I'm also never sure if there is one correct way of dressage, I think the classical has been spilt from the competitive side for quite a long time, especially when actually some rolkured horses appear to be able to keep going at the top of their game for a reasonable amount of time. - Salinero competed at the olympics aged 18... 
Personally I have seen plenty of dressage under guise of 'classical' that I don't like to watch, and plenty under the 'modern' that I don't like either. 

You are wrong to state that everyone thought Totilas amazing.
		
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I didnt say they are the same, it is a starting point to start observing all the little details of the horses movements. I dont have that much time to go through all the videos and fint exact same movements, but will have eventually.

The modern dressage has been split from the clasical dressage as soon as people started riding incorectly, so it appears there is two kinds of dressage, classical and modern, actually there is a dressage and then some incorrect form of dressage called modern dressage.

I dont know the whole world so I cant say for every rider, but most of the people I know and know of adore Totilas.

You are right that there is quite a lot of "clasical" dressage nowdays that has very little in common with real classical dressage, and it can be heartbraking t watch.

Salinero did compete till his old age, but what quality of life that horse has after the damage that has been done to his body, that is the question. Rollkur wouldnt be banned if it was good or unharmfull for the horse.


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## Lola13 (4 October 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			Why would you be asking a young horse to collect ?
		
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In my country by a young dressage horse people mean for a 6-7 year old horse.


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## ester (4 October 2015)

What tells you that modern dressage is incorrect?

Salinero can't have had too much damage, joint injections don't cover up everything...


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## Goldenstar (4 October 2015)

Lola13 said:



			In my country by a young dressage horse people mean for a 6-7 year old horse.
		
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Why would you be asking a young horse not confirmed in it's balance to collect ?


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## Lola13 (4 October 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			Why would you be asking a young horse not confirmed in it's balance to collect ?
		
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If he has lost a balance for a second for some external reason I would do that, if a horse has problems with balance than he is not a dressage horse and we are talking about dressage horses here, that are already balanced and doing dressage.

I personaly dont have a problem with young unbalanced horses, my young horses have never been unbalanced. I work with them a lot from the ground, prepare them to carry themselves and the rider, ride step by step, having always rithym and correct cues in mind which are the key to the balance.

If your horse is totally out of balance when you are riding him than I would reccomend a professional rider who has an experience with young horses.


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## Goldenstar (4 October 2015)

Dressage horses do not start out balanced .
No matter how talented they are young dressage  horses have to learn their balance under saddle they are no different to all horses in this respect .


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## Lola13 (4 October 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			Dressage horses do not start out balanced .
No matter how talented they are young horses have to learn their balance under saddle they are no different to all horses in this respect .
		
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I am talking in this topic about horses who already learned their balance under saddle, and are competing, I am not talking about marely broken under the saddle horses who cant walk properly under the rider. Regarding this kind of horses I would strongly reccomend working from the ground first so when you do mount he has had all the help from the ground possible, so he has less problems under the saddle. To correct the problems I would pay atention to the rigth rythm for the young horse, the rigth cues at the right time and going step by step. But actually if my horse was severely unbalanced under me I would call a proper trainer and let him do the job properly.


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## Goldenstar (4 October 2015)

And I am asking you how you deal with the young horse altering it's outline due inexperience.
 I appreciate English is your second language but I am asking a straight question .why would you be asking a horse altering it's outline due to inexperience to collect .
You do own the thread you can't choose the questions that are posted .
You can of course choose not to answer and all following the thread can make what inferences they choose from that.


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## Lola13 (4 October 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			And I am asking you how you deal with the young horse altering it's outline due inexperience.
 I appreciate English is your second language but I am asking a straight question .why would you be asking a horse altering it's outline due to inexperience to collect .
You do own the thread you can't choose the questions that are posted .
You can of course choose not to answer and all following the thread can make what inferences they choose from that.
		
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I clarified the second one, I wouldnt ask for unbalanced young horse to collect. I wrote the collection part for a competing dressage horse who has lost his balance for a moment due to external influence, not because he is unbalanced. 

For a young horse I would ask for a slower rythm, and with my seat and hands ask him to stretch his neck and head and come to a better balance. Also talking to him in a calm and assuring manner to relax him.

But rarely the very unbalanced movements are the fault of a horse, mostly it is a rider with a bad seat.


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## paddi22 (4 October 2015)

Lola13 said:



			But rarely the very unbalanced movements are the fault of a horse, mostly it is a rider with a bad seat.
		
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agree it can be a huge rider issue, but you are very lucky if you have never met unbalanced horses.  I've got some horses in who literally tip over their own feet even with no rider. Or ones who have always been on the forehand and struggle to balance. 

The perfectly trained-from-the-ground-up dressage horses would be a million miles away from what my experiences would be. And a lot of people on this site too I'd imagine. I think what would be interesting to ask is how you treat the contact on a normal horse that has maybe bad conformation and doesn't understand contact? 

From some of the views in the discussion so far, people make it sound damaging to the horse for it to be behind or in front of the vertical. While from my experience i don't care where the head is once the horse is working on being relaxed, rhythmic and forward. If someone took pictures of it im sure the head wouldn't be 'theoretically perfect' at times. Discussions like this tend to drift off into an ideal world of dressage where people are picking superstars apart for having the nose an inch behind. But that doesn't help normal riders on the ground to get a complete picture of what is good practice in reality i think.


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## shortstuff99 (4 October 2015)

I always disagree when people say to leave the head and neck completely alone, that can't work either. You have to provide a contact for a horse to work into otherwise any energy you've created will just fall out the front door. And what some people seem to forget is that the neck is part of the spine, you need to be able to influence the neck to be able to influence the back. You can't have a relaxed back without a relaxed neck!


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## Lola13 (4 October 2015)

paddi22 said:



			agree it can be a huge rider issue, but you are very lucky if you have never met unbalanced horses.  I've got some horses in who literally tip over their own feet even with no rider. Or ones who have always been on the forehand and struggle to balance. 

The perfectly trained-from-the-ground-up dressage horses would be a million miles away from what my experiences would be. And a lot of people on this site too I'd imagine. I think what would be interesting to ask is how you treat the contact on a normal horse that has maybe bad conformation and doesn't understand contact? 

From some of the views in the discussion so far, people make it sound damaging to the horse for it to be behind or in front of the vertical. While from my experience i don't care where the head is once the horse is working on being relaxed, rhythmic and forward. If someone took pictures of it im sure the head wouldn't be 'theoretically perfect' at times. Discussions like this tend to drift off into an ideal world of dressage where people are picking superstars apart for having the nose an inch behind. But that doesn't help normal riders on the ground to get a complete picture of what is good practice in reality i think.
		
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I cannot offer much help on the horses with bad conformation,tipping all the time etc. I have ridden some a little but thats about it. I have to say that they were horses that have been ridden by other people incorrectly. They were horses that have been tought everything wrong. But with that kind of horses I soften the contact even more than with a regular horse, and use soft cues, except for the seat. 

For example horse was tought by other riders: 1.Bring the head down cue was used for slowing down the horse who rushes all the time and it was not helping at all. 2.Half halt cue was used to change gait. 3. Horse was being turned by a sharp angle, by hands only so he was completely unbendable. 4.Because of bad conformation tipping constantly, always on the foreheand and very heavy in the hands constantly rushing. 5.Desensitised on seat cues and oversensitized on leg cues.

When I sat on that horse I was completely baffled. So I did the best I could, I decreased any cue intensity (except for seat) from very, very gentle to practicly non existant, but I gave all the right cues constantly. I asked the horse to slow down dramatically and used legs and seat to encourage correct movements, while with my hands asking the horse to relax the neck and bring the head down and bend with my whole body (not collection, just to normal head level because his head was up in the air) I mainly asked him to relax, strech, bring the head down, slow down, accept the new light cues and accept them correctly, accept constant, engaged and correct seat cues, and bend (just ligtly for beginning). After a month that horse was a delight to ride, it wasnt excellent but it was going in that direction. After that for some time I couldnt come and someone else was riding him, and when came after a break and I mounted it was the same as before, the horse has returned to his old habbits. So I gave up because I cannot go there often enaogh to keep him in correct training. If he remained in correct training in future he could do dressage.

I have ridden one other horse like that one time but he had extremely bad conformation, I could make him to go nicely but any attempt to strive to some more serious dressage work in the future would be pointless and damaging to the horse so I quit immediately. Didnt see the point in riding at all such a horse.


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## Lola13 (4 October 2015)

shortstuff99 said:



			I always disagree when people say to leave the head and neck completely alone, that can't work either. You have to provide a contact for a horse to work into otherwise any energy you've created will just fall out the front door. And what some people seem to forget is that the neck is part of the spine, you need to be able to influence the neck to be able to influence the back. You can't have a relaxed back without a relaxed neck!
		
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Greatly said!


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## ihatework (4 October 2015)

I'm really interested in your discussions Lola13.

Would you be willing to post some videos of you working a few different horses as an example of what you are trying to explain?


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## spotty_pony2 (4 October 2015)

This is what puts me off Dressage as I think what a lot of Dressage Judges 'like' is not necessarily beneficial for the horse. I tend to work my horse's with the concept of forward and out into a contact which encourages them to stretch into it and work over their backs and also really encourage them to bend around their corners and stretch through their shoulders too. Once this is all achieved, I encourage lift through the shoulders from the same 'stretchy' outline, completely avoiding drawing the head back towards the chest which just encourages them to bend and hollow IMO.


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## paddi22 (4 October 2015)

shortstuff99 said:



			I always disagree when people say to leave the head and neck completely alone, that can't work either. You have to provide a contact for a horse to work into otherwise any energy you've created will just fall out the front door. And what some people seem to forget is that the neck is part of the spine, you need to be able to influence the neck to be able to influence the back. You can't have a relaxed back without a relaxed neck!
		
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its not leaving the head and neck alone though, I put that badly, its just not making them the focus of what is happening with rest of the horse.  Obviously it should be a soft supporting contact. but to switch it round, you can't have a relaxed neck without a relaxed back first either!


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## ester (4 October 2015)

OP have you mostly ridden uphill warmbloods? As opposed to traditional cobs/native ponies/thoroughbreds?

I have a balanced, flexible welshie whose favourite evasion is to duck behind the contact, usually an indication that he isn't going forwards sufficiently. He is very good for teaching people that horses must go forwards from behind first. Softer cues wouldn't work with him, you need to be quite clear with your expectations.


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## Lola13 (4 October 2015)

ihatework said:



			I'm really interested in your discussions Lola13.

Would you be willing to post some videos of you working a few different horses as an example of what you are trying to explain?
		
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I will be making videos in some time, I just bought a camera, just dont have someone to film me so I am saving money to buy this http://www.movensee.com/store/pixio-robot-cameraman.html It will make my life so much easyer 

You can send me your email via private message here, so I can send you the links when I will have the videos.


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## tallyho! (4 October 2015)

I think talking about abut the head position automatically brings you onto talking about just that and how it is achieved.

If people spent just as much time talking about engagement and impulsion, I wonder if we would have ever been in such a situation we are now internationally.

All everyone ever talks about is the leg movers and never about how the body is moving. Now we have generations of young people who have no clue about how horses move and how to ride unless they buy as much leather, webbing and sheepskin as they possibly can to strap the head to it's chest to make their tb look like totilas.

If we concentrated on impulsion, engagement and getting the body strong enough to become "on the bit", I think there would be less problems. I don't think HHO and other horse magazines are helping either.


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## shortstuff99 (4 October 2015)

But for most riders influencing the neck is easier then influencing the back (seeing as the neck is in front of you and most of the back is behind you) so learning how to relax the neck correctly will vastly improve a horse's way of going (through the back).


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## Lola13 (4 October 2015)

spotty_pony2 said:



			This is what puts me off Dressage as I think what a lot of Dressage Judges 'like' is not necessarily beneficial for the horse. I tend to work my horse's with the concept of forward and out into a contact which encourages them to stretch into it and work over their backs and also really encourage them to bend around their corners and stretch through their shoulders too. Once this is all achieved, I encourage lift through the shoulders from the same 'stretchy' outline, completely avoiding drawing the head back towards the chest which just encourages them to bend and hollow IMO.
		
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I agree completely, modern dressage horses remind me of huge accordions, simply squished in the middle


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## tallyho! (4 October 2015)

shortstuff99 said:



			But for most riders influencing the neck is easier then influencing the back (seeing as the neck is in front of you and most of the back is behind you) so learning how to relax the neck correctly will vastly improve a horse's way of going (through the back).
		
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Influence it how exactly?


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## shortstuff99 (4 October 2015)

tallyho! said:



			Influence it how exactly?
		
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To relax and work in a way that increases balance and muscle to be able to carry riders easily and increase riding longevity through whatever exercises you are doing.


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## tallyho! (4 October 2015)

shortstuff99 said:



			To relax and work in a way that increases balance and muscle to be able to carry riders easily and increase riding longevity through whatever exercises you are doing.
		
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Ok, yes, so how do you that with the neck?


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## Lola13 (4 October 2015)

ester said:



			OP have you mostly ridden uphill warmbloods? As opposed to traditional cobs/native ponies/thoroughbreds?

I have a balanced, flexible welshie whose favourite evasion is to duck behind the contact, usually an indication that he isn't going forwards sufficiently. He is very good for teaching people that horses must go forwards from behind first. Softer cues wouldn't work with him, you need to be quite clear with your expectations.
		
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I have ridden all kind of horses, ponies, arabs, warmbloods, coldbloods, througbreds, cobs. And I have ridden some horses that dont respond to any leg cue whatsever, or jump in the air on slightest contact. No matter of the breed. Thats when seat is the only humane option until the horse starts responding to leg normaly. (I dont want to overuse the reins or spurs). Last thing I want is a horse that has to be sqeezed all the time to just go foward. You could possibly teach him with seat and leg cues to respond only to seat cue for forward motion. And then teach students to improve their seat.


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## shortstuff99 (4 October 2015)

Lots of ways  whichever suits your horse. I like to use slight flexions between straight to inside/outside from which I taught on the ground first when I was backing. I ask for flexions using my legs and seat (not pulling with my hands only ever guiding). I've taught my horse to trust the contact so now I can raise/lower/flex the neck as needed. This is obviously in conjunction with working on impulse on etc not just the neck.


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## ester (4 October 2015)

Lola13 said:



			I have ridden all kind of horses, ponies, arabs, warmbloods, coldbloods, througbreds, cobs. And I have ridden some horses that dont respond to any leg cue whatsever, or jump in the air on slightest contact. No matter of the breed. Thats when seat is the only humane option until the horse starts responding to leg normaly. (I dont want to overuse the reins or spurs). Last thing I want is a horse that has to be sqeezed all the time to just go foward. You could possibly teach him with seat and leg cues to respond only to seat cue for forward motion. And then teach students to improve their seat.
		
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You misunderstand you don't have to nag him, just be clear. As my instructor would say he is a legs off pony, rather than a hot type who you would want to get a little more used to presence of legs.

 I don't have students, but he has a couple of sharers that he has been showing the ropes too in his older age. 

If you are only using the seat how do you get the horse to start responding to the leg normally if you aren't using it? I think you are lucky if none of those horses you have ridden have been conformationally challenged.

Out of interest are you hoping to somehow get wholesale change in competitive dressage?


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## tallyho! (4 October 2015)

shortstuff99 said:



			Lots of ways  whichever suits your horse. I like to use slight flexions between straight to inside/outside from which I taught on the ground first when I was backing. I ask for flexions using my legs and seat (not pulling with my hands only ever guiding). I've taught my horse to trust the contact so now I can raise/lower/flex the neck as needed. This is obviously in conjunction with working on impulse on etc not just the neck.
		
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Just flexions of the neck? So your horse just looks left or right with variations on height? 

So what happens to the spine?


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## Lola13 (4 October 2015)

ester said:



			You misunderstand you don't have to nag him, just be clear. As my instructor would say he is a legs off pony, rather than a hot type who you would want to get a little more used to presence of legs.

 I don't have students, but he has a couple of sharers that he has been showing the ropes too in his older age. 

If you are only using the seat how do you get the horse to start responding to the leg normally if you aren't using it? I think you are lucky if none of those horses you have ridden have been conformationally challenged.

Out of interest are you hoping to somehow get wholesale change in competitive dressage?
		
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Not using seat only, but as a main cue. 

I am not hoping for competing, but I will be expected to train horses for dressage, competitions are not obligatory. But online "competitions" sound like a good idea, to get a feedback from the judges, it will also make an interesting experiment, what do judes think about clasicaly trained horses.


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## tallyho! (4 October 2015)

Lola13 said:



			Not using seat only, but as a main cue. 

I am not hoping for competing, but I will be expected to train horses for dressage, competitions are not obligatory. But online "competitions" sound like a good idea, to get a feedback from the judges, it will also make an interesting experiment, what do judes think about clasicaly trained horses.
		
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Classical is not a "new" way... rather it's the "back to basics" way. It returns back to the rulebook, back to the dressage rules. 

Competition, has ripped up the rulebook and thrown it to the dogs as you can see.... who do think rewarded this in the first place?? You ask what judges think?? I think you know Lola.


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## shortstuff99 (4 October 2015)

No my flexion is not turning the head. Infact the 'head' hardly seems to move. What you are wanting is a 'relaxation' to the flex, and the flex can be in different parts of the neck/body. Eg, poll or base of neck or rib cage. What you are aiming to do is release tension through the whole spine so the contact can be taken forwards and out.


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## Lola13 (4 October 2015)

tallyho! said:



			Classical is not a "new" way... rather it's the "back to basics" way. It returns back to the rulebook, back to the dressage rules. 

Competition, has ripped up the rulebook and thrown it to the dogs as you can see.... who do think rewarded this in the first place?? You ask what judges think?? I think you know Lola.
		
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I agree, but I want to hear their comments, one more inspiration to explore this topic more in depth. I dont think people should be discouraged from ridding propper dressage just because of what judges think. When I buy a new horse that will be dressage prospect horse, I might in the future want to compete. Why let the clasical dressage die out.


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## tallyho! (4 October 2015)

shortstuff99 said:



			No my flexion is not turning the head. Infact the 'head' hardly seems to move. What you are wanting is a 'relaxation' to the flex, and the flex can be in different parts of the neck/body. Eg, poll or base of neck or rib cage. What you are aiming to do is release tension through the whole spine so the contact can be taken forwards and out.
		
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Ok, I think I understand. Easy, I think that for advanced riders and people who understand in-hand and what you are trying to achieve. It needs to be used in context though for people who don't so that it's not seen as just controlling the head and neck gets results because they may not realise how - which is why there is such a big share in gadgets.


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## shortstuff99 (4 October 2015)

tallyho! said:



			Ok, I think I understand. Easy, I think that for advanced riders and people who understand in-hand and what you are trying to achieve. It needs to be used in context though for people who don't so that it's not seen as just controlling the head and neck gets results because they may not realise how - which is why there is such a big share in gadgets.
		
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This probably going to make me sound really preachy and I don't want to offend but maybe people should learn this before they try to train a horse for dressage. But I guess this is what a lot of these discussions are about!


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## Goldenstar (4 October 2015)

tallyho! said:



			I think talking about abut the head position automatically brings you onto talking about just that and how it is achieved.

If people spent just as much time talking about engagement and impulsion, I wonder if we would have ever been in such a situation we are now internationally.

All everyone ever talks about is the leg movers and never about how the body is moving. Now we have generations of young people who have no clue about how horses move and how to ride unless they buy as much leather, webbing and sheepskin as they possibly can to strap the head to it's chest to make their tb look like totilas.

If we concentrated on impulsion, engagement and getting the body strong enough to become "on the bit", I think there would be less problems. I don't think HHO and other horse magazines are helping either.
		
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This is not at all the case everywhere .
The trainers I work with are very committed to developing how the horse uses it's body .


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## Goldenstar (4 October 2015)

shortstuff99 said:



			I always disagree when people say to leave the head and neck completely alone, that can't work either. You have to provide a contact for a horse to work into otherwise any energy you've created will just fall out the front door. And what some people seem to forget is that the neck is part of the spine, you need to be able to influence the neck to be able to influence the back. You can't have a relaxed back without a relaxed neck!
		
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No one is saying you leave the head totally alone .
I am saying your main focus is not on the position of the head you will still be seeking to maintain connection ( unless you're working on loose reins in which case you are maintaing  the connection with your legs and body ).


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## ycbm (4 October 2015)

shortstuff99 said:



			You have to provide a contact for a horse to work into otherwise any energy you've created will just fall out the front door. !
		
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But this just isn't true, is it? I went to an exhibition of 16th century style riding recently and there was very little contact and the horses were full of energy and very highly collected and doing airs above the ground.  Western horses have tons of energy and even less contact a lot of the time. Horses are  quite capable of working with energy and in self carriage carrying a rider with no contact on a bit at all.


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## shortstuff99 (5 October 2015)

Actually they do both work into a contact, it's just a different contact from a 'dressage' looking frame. In order to be so collected and do airs above the ground they would be in 'self carriage' which they've developed through using contact. And the western way is often misconstrued, they are working with a contact it's just a very long frame. Why do you think these riders use (both classical and western) use such large shank bits? They use it for minute communication through the contact. And riders without bridles with a strap around the neck are still using a contact just not with the mouth.


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## tallyho! (5 October 2015)

shortstuff99 said:



			This probably going to make me sound really preachy and I don't want to offend but maybe people should learn this before they try to train a horse for dressage. But I guess this is what a lot of these discussions are about!
		
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There just isn't the consistency in this country to make this assumption. And yes, this is why we are having the discussion I guess.

I didn't come across a decent teacher until my 20's. Before then it was the proven UK method of "kick/pull or both together" and whilst I appreciate this is not representative of everyone's experience, it is for many.


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## tallyho! (5 October 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			This is not at all the case everywhere .
The trainers I work with are very committed to developing how the horse uses it's body .
		
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The country needs more trainers like this. Sadly there is a shortage...


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## tallyho! (5 October 2015)

ycbm said:



			Horses are  quite capable of working with energy and in self carriage carrying a rider with no contact on a bit at all.
		
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I agree with this. If you train young horses, often it's counter productive to control the "frame" early on. The strength has to be built upon according to the capability of the young horse - and the core, back and quarters strength has to come before anything else. Then the spine influences the neck.


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## AdorableAlice (5 October 2015)

This comment is number 100 on the thread and I think it sums up the whole discussion.

Always always ride from the leg to the hand, NEVER the other way round.


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## shortstuff99 (5 October 2015)

But you will need a contact at some point. Having horses on a loose rein and just working on the back will never produce a 'frame' (for want of a better word). As soon as your reins are shorter then the buckle you will be having a contact.


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## Goldenstar (5 October 2015)

shortstuff99 said:



			But you will need a contact at some point. Having horses on a loose rein and just working on the back will never produce a 'frame' (for want of a better word). As soon as your reins are shorter then the buckle you will be having a contact.
		
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But I don't think anyone has said on the thread that you ride all the time with no contact .
There's a big difference between fixing the head with the hand and having and keeping the contact and allowing the horse to move it's head.
There's also a difference between fixing the head and using flexion and bending to influence the horse .


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## Tnavas (5 October 2015)

alice.j said:



			Sylvia Loch, in one of her books, says that the poll should be the highest point, and that the head should be perpendicular to the neck - e.g. the neck and the head should make a 90 degree angle (at the front of the head, not the cheeks). Being broken at the 3rd (aka having the crest highest) can actually lead to joint and muscle problems, as well as being awkward for the horse; imagine always walking around with your back bent, it's not comfortable!
Some showing judges are apparently starting to reward those with polls highest and put down over bent horses, so I've been told.
		
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Lola13 said:



			I agree with both of you, I hope there will be a change, it is so sad that there is so few riders nowdays who ride correctly like real dressage masters like Nuno Oliveira used to.

I love this picture so much: http://www.dany-lahaye.fr/Images/oliveirabw.jpg beauty, grace, elegance, correctness and a healthy, relaxed horse.
		
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To be honest its best to forget the head and focus on getting the rear end in the right place - but over all at whatever level you work at 

*The poll should always be the highest point of the neck, with the face preferably just in front of the vertical* - it should never be behind the vertical - nor should the third vertebrae be the highest point of the neck.


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## shortstuff99 (5 October 2015)

ycbm said:



			Horses are  quite capable of working with energy and in self carriage carrying a rider with no contact on a bit at all.
		
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This is what I was replying to. I was trying to say in training there will always be a contact even if in the end you work to this goal contact will have been used at some point.


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## Goldenstar (5 October 2015)

Tnavas said:



			To be honest its best to forget the head and focus on getting the rear end in the right place - but over all at whatever level you work at 

*The poll should always be the highest point of the neck, with the face preferably just in front of the vertical* - it should never be behind the vertical - nor should the third vertebrae be the highest point of the neck.
		
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The poll canot be the highest point if you do stretching work in training of course there is a school of training that does value stretching and working Land L but it's pretty well proven that working Land L does help develop the back and it gives the back and neck muscles a chance to stretch during a work session and at the end .
Horses are designed to go L and L their  back muscles are stretched like this all the time they are grazing so it makes sense to me to include it during every work session


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## JFTDWS (5 October 2015)

Lola13 said:



			I didnt decide that, the scientists decided that. ...

The scientists didnt one day wrote "Atention, atention! now every unnatural overflexing of the horses head is hyperflexion", they uncovered over the years all the different signs of hyperflexion that show in different parts of the body, and they have been shown in also "deep, round and low" and incorrect "collection".

I have already written some of the efects of the incorrect "collections" : Partial crushing of partoid salivary gland, injury of atlanooccipital membrane, damage on cervical spine and spinal muscles, severe recrudescent necrosis of the muscles etc. etc.
		
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And you have provided links to evidence to support these claims, where exactly?  And I do mean evidence, not opinion articles...  I'm not disagreeing that rollkur and some aspects of competitive dressage are unedifying, but that doesn't mean you can make these sorts of claims without justifying them.  

I'd also tentatively suggest you drop your evangelical attitude and accept that you're not the only one who thinks they know what they're talking about


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## ycbm (5 October 2015)

shortstuff99 said:



			This is what I was replying to. I was trying to say in training there will always be a contact even if in the end you work to this goal contact will have been used at some point.
		
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You said that without a contact all the energy you create will disappear out the front. Rightly or wrongly, I took that to mean that as soon as you drop the contact the energy will disappear.  This is something I read and hear said often to explain what often look like fairly heavy hands. I don't think that has to be true, though it certainly seems to be true of a lot of competitive high level dressage.


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## abb123 (5 October 2015)

So the backlash to Charlotte and Carl has started already then...

For what it is worth, I am no dressage expert. The highest level I have got to is BD novice with my little arab so I don't really feel like I can comment on the technicalities.

But I can give my opinion as a spectator and say that Charlotte and Carl's horses always look very relaxed and secure in their work. They always look like they are enjoying their job and for me are a joy to watch. Yes, sometimes they go behind the vertical but they certainly don't look like the white eyed stress balls that the likes of Adelinde and Edward Gal's horses do.

I am yet to see any evidence that long, deep and round is bad for the horse or that being slightly behind the vertical is any worse than being slightly above? In the absence of which this seems to just come down to a technicality and a conclusion that dressage is hard and the perfect outline at all times for the hardest of movements while maintaining relaxation, tempo and energy is near to impossible??


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## Tnavas (5 October 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			The poll canot be the highest point if you do stretching work in training of course there is a school of training that does value stretching and working Land L but it's pretty well proven that working Land L does help develop the back and it gives the back and neck muscles a chance to stretch during a work session and at the end .
Horses are designed to go L and L their  back muscles are stretched like this all the time they are grazing so it makes sense to me to includes it during every work session
		
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The description for free walk on a long rein has the muzzle in line with the point of the shoulder so the poll still remains the highest point of the neck. But I do know what you mean, when working long and low the head is often lower than the withers but care needs to be taken to ensure the face does not go behind the vertical, which it often does.


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## Lola13 (5 October 2015)

JFTD said:



			And you have provided links to evidence to support these claims, where exactly?  And I do mean evidence, not opinion articles...  I'm not disagreeing that rollkur and some aspects of competitive dressage are unedifying, but that doesn't mean you can make these sorts of claims without justifying them.  

I'd also tentatively suggest you drop your evangelical attitude and accept that you're not the only one who thinks they know what they're talking about 

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I dont want to post ugly autopsy pictures on forums, people get very upset when they see them, so much that some of the uglyest were completely taken off the internet. I instead wrote what was discovered in the researches. If you are interested to see the pictures just go to google, and for the most detailed ones you will have to contact the people who conducted the researches. I am not sending any picture like that to anyone, just to be accused of disturbing people. I am reluctant even to write about it because people from a few sentences start imagining things and get disturbed.

I am again writting, english is my second language and I havent used it for ages, so my writting may seem like I am a smarty pants, actually I just try to write in english correctly.


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## Regandal (5 October 2015)

The only research I remember (Clinton? ) showed that hyperflexion did not affect blood oxygen levels.  There may be other studies though.


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## ycbm (5 October 2015)

Lola13 said:



			I dont want to post ugly autopsy pictures on forums, people get very upset when they see them, so much that some of the uglyest were completely taken off the internet. I instead wrote what was discovered in the researches. If you are interested to see the pictures just go to google, and for the most detailed ones you will have to contact the people who conducted the researches. I am not sending any picture like that to anyone, just to be accused of disturbing people. I am reluctant even to write about it because people from a few sentences start imagining things and get disturbed.

I am again writting, english is my second language and I havent used it for ages, so my writting may seem like I am a smarty pants, actually I just try to write in english correctly.
		
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Lola I think your English is very good indeed. I also think that you are making a valid point, but I am confused why you are using pictures of Charlotte Dujardin and Valegro when there are so many much worse examples.   Although we have had a calm discussion about the subject, it is pretty likely to annoy people to come onto an English forum and use her as a example when she and her trainer Carl Hester are probably among the least likely people competing at top level to be using abusive methods of training.

I also don't think there is any evidence that being mildly overbent for short periods is damaging to a horse, nor do I think there is any comparison between being mildly overbent and rollkur. And I agree with others that long and low is not rollkur.


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## ester (5 October 2015)

Lola13 said:



			I dont want to post ugly autopsy pictures on forums, people get very upset when they see them, so much that some of the uglyest were completely taken off the internet. I instead wrote what was discovered in the researches. If you are interested to see the pictures just go to google, and for the most detailed ones you will have to contact the people who conducted the researches. I am not sending any picture like that to anyone, just to be accused of disturbing people. I am reluctant even to write about it because people from a few sentences start imagining things and get disturbed.

I am again writting, english is my second language and I havent used it for ages, so my writting may seem like I am a smarty pants, actually I just try to write in english correctly.
		
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Oh no I think some of us would be well up for post mortem pictures, you could just put the links then they wouldn't show directly! I am sure the likes of jftd and myself have seen much worse/attended enough pms to not be affected! 

From your response I am guessing there aren't any actual scientific papers on these though, it would be interesting to know where these horses came from and what their regimes were/length of time worked in hyperflexion etc.


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## Lola13 (5 October 2015)

abb123 said:



			So the backlash to Charlotte and Carl has started already then...

For what it is worth, I am no dressage expert. The highest level I have got to is BD novice with my little arab so I don't really feel like I can comment on the technicalities.

But I can give my opinion as a spectator and say that Charlotte and Carl's horses always look very relaxed and secure in their work. They always look like they are enjoying their job and for me are a joy to watch. Yes, sometimes they go behind the vertical but they certainly don't look like the white eyed stress balls that the likes of Adelinde and Edward Gal's horses do.

I am yet to see any evidence that long, deep and round is bad for the horse or that being slightly behind the vertical is any worse than being slightly above? In the absence of which this seems to just come down to a technicality and a conclusion that dressage is hard and the perfect outline at all times for the hardest of movements while maintaining relaxation, tempo and energy is near to impossible??
		
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ycbm said:



			Lola I think your English is very good indeed. I also think that you are making a valid point, but I am confused why you are using pictures of Charlotte Dujardin and Valegro when there are so many much worse examples.   Although we have had a calm discussion about the subject, it is pretty likely to annoy people to come onto an English forum and use her as a example when she and her trainer Carl Hester are probably among the least likely people competing at top level to be using abusive methods of training.

I also don't think there is any evidence that being mildly overbent for short periods is damaging to a horse, nor do I think there is any comparison between being mildly overbent and rollkur. And I agree with others that long and low is not rollkur.
		
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They are certainly enjoying their job because they just dont care about riding correctly, horses not so much. If you need evidence just google it, simple as that. As I said, I am not going to disturb anyone with such pictures. Perfect outline is possible if you ride a horse correctly, if you dont you will struggle. I just want to say I am not trying to pick on Charlotte or Carl, I am talking about most of modern dressage riders. I posted their pictures because they are supposed to be the best of the best, and they do ride incorrectly, and not in the best interestof the horse, just like most modern riders. Most researches that have been done are not focused on rollkur, but a "collection" slightly behind the vertical. What has been found in those researches I have allready posted twice on this thread.


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## ester (5 October 2015)

They meant the horses look to be enjoying their job. 

It is also really annoying when people declare things and insist we spend time googling it!

'What has been found in those researches I have allready posted twice on this thread.'

you have mentioned them, not provided any substantive evidence.


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## Goldenstar (5 October 2015)

Exactly Ester , Lola13 show us these papers and these photos you're not dealing with a load of fluffy bunnies who are going to take a fit of the vapours faced with an unpleasant photo.


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## ycbm (5 October 2015)

I would also like to see the photos, however disturbing you think I might find them, and references to the peer reviewed and published research that working mildly overbent damages horses Lola. Thank you.


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## Goldenstar (5 October 2015)

ycbm said:



			I would also like to see the photos, however disturbing you think I might find them, and references to the peer reviewed and published research that working mildly overbent damages horses Lola. Thank you.
		
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Could not have put it better.


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## Lola13 (5 October 2015)

ester said:



			Oh no I think some of us would be well up for post mortem pictures, you could just put the links then they wouldn't show directly! I am sure the likes of jftd and myself have seen much worse/attended enough pms to not be affected! 

From your response I am guessing there aren't any actual scientific papers on these though, it would be interesting to know where these horses came from and what their regimes were/length of time worked in hyperflexion etc.
		
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This website has posted some of those pictures, but they are not the ones who conducted the research. http://fairhorsemanship.tumblr.com/ 

On the bottom of the first page you can see "LDR" used in Spanish riding school, so they also strayed from classical dressage. And what a suprise, they also struggle to keep the horses topline correctly when ridding in "collection". 
http://40.media.tumblr.com/7dd7f4c8cd8d9a3dc2a4e107e0b044bb/tumblr_nm701kdaNP1s6zhtjo1_1280.jpg
http://40.media.tumblr.com/fc5c9d127ccf81c58768e7cf072fad0c/tumblr_nm701kdaNP1s6zhtjo2_1280.jpg
http://40.media.tumblr.com/f069a079bd8ba4dffe465fc432d34365/tumblr_nm701kdaNP1s6zhtjo3_1280.jpg

If you search through the website pictures you will find one autopsy picture. And I have to say I didnt read the articles on that page so I am not supporting any other article because I dont know what are they about.


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## Lola13 (5 October 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			Could not have put it better.
		
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I posted now one link with website that has reposted one picture. I am not posting direct links, I have done that one time on one forum, and I have been verbaly attacked by manny people. So not doing that mystake again.


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## ester (5 October 2015)

Who did conduct the research?


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## Goldenstar (5 October 2015)

What are these pictures supposed to prove ?


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## Lola13 (5 October 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			Exactly Ester , Lola13 show us these papers and these photos you're not dealing with a load of fluffy bunnies who are going to take a fit of the vapours faced with an unpleasant photo.
		
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Hahahaha, I am not trying to foll anyone, I just have bad experience of posting those kind of links, and I want to stay a member on this forum, people are very smart and nice, and they make a very good debate. 

What I am struggling to find is complete british official dressage rulebook, not the ones that have half of the rules deleted, the complete thing. They have them in every single country in their language, only british rulebooks have half of the things deleted. Does anyone know where to find a complete one?


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## ester (5 October 2015)

Oh, so I found the picture after trawling through several pages of that blog

It credits NHE research center for the work, good old Nevzorov so you will have to excuse me if I don't take his findings too seriously!


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## Meowy Catkin (5 October 2015)

Lola13 said:



			I posted now one link with website that has reposted one picture. I am not posting direct links, I have done that one time on one forum, and I have been verbaly attacked by manny people. So not doing that mystake again.
		
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You don't need to worry about that here. Post links to the photos, rather than just posting the photos so that they automatically show. Also put a warning that they are photos from post mortems and to only click on the links if you are happy to view such images.

ETA - a link to programme showing an equine post mortem (Inside nature's giants) has been posted on this forum previously, plus there are often 'worst injury' photos and I have posted photos of minor operations and not been banned.


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## ester (5 October 2015)

Here is the dressage rulebook, I will provide a link for you. 

http://www.britishdressage.co.uk/uploads/File/BD Memebers Handbook 2016 Webfile.pdf


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## ester (5 October 2015)

the photo 
	
	
		
		
	


	





and the caption:Here is the photo of the autopsy of a horse that was considered healthy, myologically at least. On the photo, you can easily see the affected regions. In this case we see a very severe, obvious and definite chronic affectation of the splenius neck muscles. The ones that together with the trapezius and the atlas muscles-suffer most of all from forced collection. The grey mass that is perfectly seen and shown in the picture is unquestionably necrotized muscle tissue. Dead muscle tissue within the body of the living horse whom the equestrian sport community foredoomed to be happy athlete (It is phenomenal that this term be used by the FEI in such an instance of marasmus. The term happy athlete is used for dressage horse.) 
NHE Research Center


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## Lola13 (5 October 2015)

ester said:



			Oh, so I found the picture after trawling through several pages of that blog

It credits NHE research center for the work, good old Nevzorov so you will have to excuse me if I don't take his findings too seriously!
		
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I dont like the guy eather, but he did a lot of researches with qualified researchers:H. Strasser, dr.vet.med. ,S. Skinner, dr.vet.med.E. De Buckeler, dr.vet.med.I. Colloredo &#8211; Mannfeld, dr.vet.med. prof Zelenevskij, prof V. D. Isakov, dr.med.. prof dr B. E. Sysoev,  S.M. Logatkin etc etc

If you dont trust researches saying that modern "collection" is incorrect, bring out the dressage rulebooks (complete ones) and lets compare them to the videos of the modern riders.


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## ester (5 October 2015)

Mr Nevzorov also likes to publish in his own journals, I don't know why the rest of us scientists didn't think about doing that!


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## Goldenstar (5 October 2015)

What's a foredoomed horse folks ?


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## ester (5 October 2015)

Lola13 said:



			I dont like the guy eather, but he did a lot of researches with qualified researchers:H. Strasser, dr.vet.med. ,S. Skinner, dr.vet.med.E. De Buckeler, dr.vet.med.I. Colloredo &#8211; Mannfeld, dr.vet.med. prof Zelenevskij, prof V. D. Isakov, dr.med.. prof dr B. E. Sysoev,  S.M. Logatkin etc etc

If you dont trust researches saying that modern "collection" is incorrect, bring out the dressage rulebooks (complete ones) and lets compare them to the videos of the modern riders.
		
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I have added the complete rule book. 

It doesn't matter who was doing the research if it isn't published in an independent peer reviewed manner it is pretty defunct and tells us nothing. I certainly wouldn't believe anything Strasser came up with either..


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## Meowy Catkin (5 October 2015)

foredoom
f&#596;&#720;&#712;du&#720;m/Submit
verb
past tense: foredoomed; past participle: foredoomed
condemn beforehand to certain failure or destruction.
"the policy is foredoomed to failure"


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## Lola13 (5 October 2015)

ester said:



			Mr Nevzorov also likes to publish in his own journals, I don't know why the rest of us scientists didn't think about doing that!
		
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I am not here to pick on or promote anyone particularely, not the riders, not the people who make researches. I just said it is interesting to see autopsy pictures. Nevzorov made a lot of mystakes in presenting himself and gets a LOT of hate. If he was a little different person he could of make a lot for horses. But his behaviour is doing quite the opposite unfortunately.


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## Lola13 (5 October 2015)

ester said:



			I have added the complete rule book. 

It doesn't matter who was doing the research if it isn't published in an independent peer reviewed manner it is pretty defunct and tells us nothing. I certainly wouldn't believe anything Strasser came up with either..
		
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I didnt said they were gods and everything they say is true, it is an interesting starting point to start a discussion, not bashing people, but talking about different bodyparts of the horse, their function and what is done to them by using different methods. Not taking a research for granted, just as a starting point for a healthy discussion.

I dont see the rulebook.


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## ester (5 October 2015)

Work like this is much more useful and more importantly valid, although sample numbers are always a problem http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0031938414000419

I am sorry but you cannot declare there to be evidence, refuse to provide the sources when that evidence has then been provided it turns out to have nothing to do with the established scientific community, work and routes to publishing, therefore making it pretty invalid.


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## ester (5 October 2015)

again, 

rulebook 
http://www.britishdressage.co.uk/uploads/File/BD Memebers Handbook 2016 Webfile.pdf

I am not bashing people, I am pointing out that the validity of their work, from a scientific viewpoint is seriously suspect and cannot be relied upon as any sort of evidence.


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## ycbm (5 October 2015)

ester said:



			the photo 
	
	
		
		
	


	





and the caption:Here is the photo of the autopsy of a horse that was considered healthy, myologically at least. On the photo, you can easily see the affected regions. In this case we see a very severe, obvious and definite chronic affectation of the splenius neck muscles. The ones that together with the trapezius and the atlas muscles-suffer most of all from forced collection. The grey mass that is perfectly seen and shown in the picture is unquestionably necrotized muscle tissue. Dead muscle tissue within the body of the living horse whom the equestrian sport community foredoomed to be &#8216;happy athlete&#8217; (It is phenomenal that this term be used by the FEI in such an instance of marasmus. The term &#8216;happy athlete&#8217; is used for dressage horse.) 
NHE Research Center
		
Click to expand...

But surely this picture tells us nothing at all without knowing exactly what work the horse has done and when, and comparing it both with other horses which had done the same work - to prove it was not a one-off, and other horses which had NOT done any of that work - to prove that it was the work that caused it. For all we know, this was one horse that tripped over its own feet in a paddock and caused a neck injury.

I'm not a scientist but even I know that much, I think.


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## Lola13 (5 October 2015)

ester said:



			Work like this is much more useful and more importantly valid, although sample numbers are always a problem http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0031938414000419

I am sorry but you cannot declare there to be evidence, refuse to provide the sources when that evidence has then been provided it turns out to have nothing to do with the established scientific community, work and routes to publishing, therefore making it pretty invalid.
		
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I said there were researches made, I did not come here to preach, I came here for a discussion, it is a forum. What I am interested is what is peoples oppinions on the points made (correct or incorrect), riding by the rulebooks, modern riding, LDR, rollkur etc.

I want to hear the oppinion on the points made about splenius, trapezius and the atlas muscles.


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## Tnavas (5 October 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			And I am asking you how you deal with the young horse altering it's outline due inexperience.
 I appreciate English is your second language but I am asking a straight question .why would you be asking a horse altering it's outline due to inexperience to collect .
You do own the thread you can't choose the questions that are posted .
You can of course choose not to answer and all following the thread can make what inferences they choose from that.
		
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Every bit of work we do with our horse is geared towards collection.

Collection is not just a term for work done at higher levels. Collection is in degrees, every time we work the horses hind end to move under its body we are asking for a degree of collection.

Lola, I think your posts and your English are excellent. I'm really enjoying this thread.


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## ester (5 October 2015)

ycbm said:



			But surely this picture tells us nothing at all without knowing exactly what work the horse has done and when, and comparing it both with other horses which had done the same work - to prove it was not a one-off, and other horses which had NOT done any of that work - to prove that it was the work that caused it. For all we know, this was one horse that tripped over its own feet in a paddock and caused a neck injury.

I'm not a scientist but even I know that much, I think.
		
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boom, got it in one! 

It could have spent all of it's life inverted doing damage too.

As I scientist it is always nice to see supporting evidence for the long term detrimental effects of hyperflexion that are proposed.
As a topic that has come up on here before it has been clear that there is very little if any, hence I may have gotten over excited of the prospect of some quality dissection with good scientific experimental design. It is disappointing to find that is not the case.


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## ycbm (5 October 2015)

Lola13 said:



			I said there were researches made, I did not come here to preach, I came here for almost ssion, it is a forum. What I am interested is what is peoples oppinions on the points made (correct or incorrect), riding by the rulebooks, modern riding, LDR, rollkur etc.

I want to hear the oppinion on the points made about splenius, trapezius and the atlas muscles.
		
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Lola I think things are confused because you are trying to discuss three different things at once and they are only loosely related, if at all.

1.  The use of severe overbending, rollkur, in training.

2. The prevalence of mildly overbent as a head carriage in training and in competition. Chosen as a preference to mildly in front of the vertical.

3. Incorrect movements which do not conform to the FEI rulebook, given high scores in top level competition.

I agree with you that 1 and 3 are an issue. I am not sure if 2 is or not, as it is now simply accepted by almost all top competitive riders that horses should be ridden like it, Hester and Dujardin included.  I struggle to understand whether it is genuinely wrong, or just that things have changed from what used to be regarded as correct.


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## Lola13 (5 October 2015)

ester said:



			again, 

rulebook 
http://www.britishdressage.co.uk/uploads/File/BD Memebers Handbook 2016 Webfile.pdf

I am not bashing people, I am pointing out that the validity of their work, from a scientific viewpoint is seriously suspect and cannot be relied upon as any sort of evidence.
		
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This is not the complete rulebook like other countries have.


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## ester (5 October 2015)

It is our BD rulebook, I cannot provide you with anything else! 

For those interested this is a nice pilot study paper which goes on to model and assess the relative load on the cervical vetebrae 
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.2042-3306.2010.00228.x/pdf

Table 4 gives the % strains


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## Lola13 (5 October 2015)

ycbm said:



			Lola I think things are confused because you are trying to discuss three different things at once and they are only loosely related, if at all.

1.  The use of severe overbending, rollkur, in training.

2. The prevalence of mildly overbent as a head carriage in training and in competition. Chosen as a preference to mildly in front of the vertical.

3. Incorrect movements which do not conform to the FEI rulebook, given high scores in top level competition.

I agree with you that 1 and 3 are an issue. I am not sure if 2 is or not, as it is now simply accepted by almost all top competitive riders that horses should be ridden like it, Hester and Dujardin included.  I struggle to understand whether it is genuinely wrong, or just that things have changed from what used to be regarded as correct.
		
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I started this topic to discuss the mildly overbent and the use of it as a collection in every single movement. Rollkur topic was started by other people so it joined the discussion. 

My personal oppinion is that it is wrong, but I will be happy for someone to prove me wrong.


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## Lola13 (5 October 2015)

ester said:



			It is our BD rulebook, I cannot provide you with anything else! 

For those interested this is a nice pilot study paper which goes on to model and assess the relative load on the cervical vetebrae 
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.2042-3306.2010.00228.x/pdf

Table 4 gives the % strains
		
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Ok I will find some from several countries and post in english some rules from one that has the most informations, when I will have time.

Thank you for posting this, I will deffinetely read it attentively.


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## Lola13 (5 October 2015)

Video that is interesting to see, horses head goes from and to the vertical and in front of the vertical, and at times behind the vertical.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWpFXtXsDkM

An article about the fashion of the horse head carriage in piaffe. (This is particularely interesting to me, because in clasical dressage, most of the piaffe was done a good amount in front of the vertical, after that people started riding it slight in front of vertical, then on the vertical, and they now ride behind the vertical. -this is not in article) In this or similar articles of the study only the scores of the dressage tests were mentioned, horses health or wellbeing not even one time.
http://lusitanoportal.com/articles/shorter-reins-higher-scores/

Interesting read about -Working the Horse Behind the Vertical
http://www.ridingart.com/balance.htm

Some pictures of horse in front of the vertical and the clasical piaffe
http://lizditz.typepad.com/i_speak_of_dreams/2005/05/well_ridden_dre.html

Modern piaffe
http://www.eurodressage.com/equestr...ata/images/12_hagen_dujardin_valegro_0355.jpg


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## Goldenstar (5 October 2015)

Tnavas said:



			Every bit of work we do with our horse is geared towards collection.

Collection is not just a term for work done at higher levels. Collection is in degrees, every time we work the horses hind end to move under its body we are asking for a degree of collection.

Lola, I think your posts and your English are excellent. I'm really enjoying this thread.
		
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Collection is at the top of the training pyramid in the young horse collection may be the eventual aim but when training the young horses collection would be very low on the things I would be thinking about .


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## ycbm (5 October 2015)

Lola I am curious. Can I ask why you chose to join a British forum and write in a foreign language instead of discussing this on a horse forum in your native language?  You have created a really interesting discussion and your English is really excellent, but surely it would have been easier for you to have this discussion 'at home'?  You are very welcome here, I am just being nosy and it would be interesting to know the attitudes in your home country.


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## Lola13 (5 October 2015)

ycbm said:



			Lola I am curious. Can I ask why you chose to join a British forum and write in a foreign language instead of discussing this on a horse forum in your native language?  You have created a really interesting discussion and your English is really excellent, but surely it would have been easier for you to have this discussion 'at home'?  You are very welcome here, I am just being nosy and it would be interesting to know the attitudes in your home country.
		
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In my country there is specific situation, best to describe it would be with a saying "Monkey see, monkey do" copying everything they see, without thinking is it really good or not, in a combination with very bad riding very often. Imagine lousy rider who copyes everything modern riders are doing. The situation is tragical, dressage riders on higher levels who literally cannot even sit on a horse properly, but they are doing LDR. Ruined horses everywhere with the method. Even the judges say it is very sad situation, but they dont want to say any more or do something about it, dressage brings them money. And that is just situation in dressage, in other disciplines it is much worse.


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## Goldenstar (5 October 2015)

I think sports change .
Classical dressage , who turely knows what classical is or was ,now a days the Duke of Newcastles methods who have us all running for the hills screaming .
Who knows what modern dressage is the top riders ride in different ways you can't lump them all together and say they do the same thing .
I think it was Kottas who said the most important thing you look for in a performance / partnership is harmony and I think you won't go far wrong if you keep that in mind .
I find it hard to get in a sweat about things because teaching horses to go round in circles is really a stupid and esoteric way to spend your time when you look at the big picture .
So CH does things in a way that Lola13 does not like , Lola13 thinks I am not fit to train horses because my young horses lose their balance and experiment with where they put their heads and I let them get on with it .
Lola13 expects her young horses to be capable of collection and never to lose their balance as long as she never in charge of one of mine I am happy with that too .
Lola13 can compete and prove her way is better if she's so minded ,personally I can think of nothing worse than traveling round Europe doing dressage tests .

When I look at my horses I know they are happy and work willingly they have a nice life I am not deluded in this it's just how it is .
We have a harmonious time ,they enjoy life ,to me that's what matters .
I think with horses it's the big picture that counts as I get older I become less and less interested in anything more than this .
If a classical riders horse is happy in it's work that's good enough for me , Valegro ( I pick him out because he's been used on the thread as the example of bad training )does always look confident in himself and his rider.
I think what I am trying to say if the horse is happy and in harmony with it's rider ,perhaps it's my age , but that's good enough for me .


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## Regandal (5 October 2015)

I did a little research via Google last night and fried my brain. There's a small voice in my head whispering  'Emperor's New Clothes'. Who decides all these rules and what are they based on?  The scant research out there seems to be discipline specific or skewed to favour your product. The only reliable indicator I can fathom is soundness following one specific training style.  I did find out that my saddle needs to go back an inch tbough.


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## Tnavas (5 October 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			Collection is at the top of the training pyramid in the young horse collection may be the eventual aim but when training the young horses collection would be very low on the things I would be thinking about .
		
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Ultimate collection is at the top of the pyramid but as I said - everytime you improve the degree of hindlegs under the body you are developing collection.

Each degree of collection increases the engagement and activity of the quarters - you may not be actively thinking 'collection' but you are actually building on it as your work progresses through the levels

Lets remember the first true 'collecting' exercise is Shoulder In - only Elementary level!


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## Lola13 (5 October 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			I think sports change .
Classical dressage , who turely knows what classical is or was ,now a days the Duke of Newcastles methods who have us all running for the hills screaming .
Who knows what modern dressage is the top riders ride in different ways you can't lump them all together and say they do the same thing .
I think it was Kottas who said the most important thing you look for in a performance / partnership is harmony and I think you won't go far wrong if you keep that in mind .
I find it hard to get in a sweat about things because teaching horses to go round in circles is really a stupid and esoteric way to spend your time when you look at the big picture .
So CH does things in a way that Lola13 does not like , Lola13 thinks I am not fit to train horses because my young horses lose their balance and experiment with where they put their heads and I let them get on with it .
Lola13 expects her young horses to be capable of collection and never to lose their balance as long as she never in charge of one of mine I am happy with that too .
Lola13 can compete and prove her way is better if she's so minded ,personally I can think of nothing worse than traveling round Europe doing dressage tests .

When I look at my horses I know they are happy and work willingly they have a nice life I am not deluded in this it's just how it is .
We have a harmonious time ,they enjoy life ,to me that's what matters .
I think with horses it's the big picture that counts as I get older I become less and less interested in anything more than this .
If a classical riders horse is happy in it's work that's good enough for me , Valegro ( I pick him out because he's been used on the thread as the example of bad training )does always look confident in himself and his rider.
I think what I am trying to say if the horse is happy and in harmony with it's rider ,perhaps it's my age , but that's good enough for me .
		
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I am talking about correct classical dressage, there were a lot of people who used to turn dressage into something bad, just like there are people today who are doing that. 
Most of modern riders ride behind the vertical, that is the link between them, about the methods how they achieve that we didnt even talked in this thread.  But we can if you want to. 

Regarding Kottas here is the quote from an inerview with him : Whereas, we always want the poll to be the highest point with the nose in front of the vertical. 

I said regarding your question about balance, if your horses are extremely unbalanced, try with more experienced trainer, you will quickly see where the problem is, and you will quickly know what to do, two heads are better than one. That is all I wanted to say. It is not a shame to ask your trainer a question, or for help, actually it is the best you can do. 

So dressage is stupid for you? Why are you posting on a thread thats named Positions of the head in dressage movements then?

Oh my gosh, I never said I expect a young horse to collect, I was talking about young dressage horse that is already competing, I corrected the mistake twice by saying what I expect of a young horse: balance and relaxation. 

OK kill me for having horses who are well balanced to start with, preparing them from the ground to have less problems under saddle and then riding them correctly. (Again no collection for a young horse)

I dont know how you managed to conclude I am going to drag my horse all over the Europe constantly, I only said I might compete, never said how much. For me it is ok to go on a few trips a year, if a horse likes to travel to different places and enjoys the attention,  new environments, meeting new horses, people etc.

I aplaud you for only wanting for your horses to be happy, and work in the area that doesnt affect their happiness. That is my goal too for manny years, that is why I stopped competing regularely.


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## Tnavas (5 October 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			I think sports change .
Classical dressage , who turely knows what classical is or was ,now a days the Duke of Newcastles methods who have us all running for the hills screaming .
Who knows what modern dressage is the top riders ride in different ways you can't lump them all together and say they do the same thing .
I think it was Kottas who said the most important thing you look for in a performance / partnership is harmony and I think you won't go far wrong if you keep that in mind .
I find it hard to get in a sweat about things because teaching horses to go round in circles is really a stupid and esoteric way to spend your time when you look at the big picture .
So CH does things in a way that Lola13 does not like , Lola13 thinks I am not fit to train horses because my young horses lose their balance and experiment with where they put their heads and I let them get on with it .
Lola13 expects her young horses to be capable of collection and never to lose their balance as long as she never in charge of one of mine I am happy with that too .
Lola13 can compete and prove her way is better if she's so minded ,personally I can think of nothing worse than traveling round Europe doing dressage tests .

When I look at my horses I know they are happy and work willingly they have a nice life I am not deluded in this it's just how it is .
We have a harmonious time ,they enjoy life ,to me that's what matters .
I think with horses it's the big picture that counts as I get older I become less and less interested in anything more than this .
If a classical riders horse is happy in it's work that's good enough for me , Valegro ( I pick him out because he's been used on the thread as the example of bad training )does always look confident in himself and his rider.
I think what I am trying to say if the horse is happy and in harmony with it's rider ,perhaps it's my age , but that's good enough for me .
		
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I sort of know where you are coming from - many years ago I was quite happy with the way my horses were going UNTIL I went to work for Jennie Lorriston-Clarke and I got to ride Grand Prix horses every day - WOW - my first Piaffe - WOW - when I left there and went back to riding my own horses and schooling others I realised that mine were like wooden planks.

Riding a well trained high level dressage horse is incredible! Spurred me on to school mine better.


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## Auslander (5 October 2015)

Going back to the comments about Valegro - I think it's important to differentiate between incorrect training, and conformation. If you look carefully at pictures of him working, and then relaxed he has an exceptionally large crest - and even when relaxed with his neck stretched out, his crest is higher than his poll. You can see the natural line of his neck clearly in this picture, and once you see it, it's clear that he is working correctly more often than not. Even when his face is on, or in front of the vertical - which it actually is, in the majority of the photos that I have spent the last half hour poring over, his crest still makes it appear as if he is broken over. He cannot physically have his poll as the highest point - he just isn't built that way. If he were to be presented with his poll as the highest point, he would either have to contort his neck until it snapped, or his face would have to be practically horizontal.  Perhaps the judges who mark him so highly are able to make this differentiation, where a less experienced person would see the huge crest and shout "Terrible training, terrible rider!". Perhaps the changes in how dressage horses work are down to the shift towards a more heavily muscled powerful type of warmblood for world class dressage, rather than bad training/riding. With the evolution of a heavier type of horse, with very different conformation to those ridden by the classical masters of yesteryear, I think it's important that judges and trainers evolve alongside, and take into consideration the physiology of the horses they are working with/judging.


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## ester (5 October 2015)

Can I turn this around a bit and rather than discussing the proof, or not, that hyperflexion causes damage is there proof that classical training is good for them?


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## Goldenstar (5 October 2015)

Tnavas said:



			I sort of know where you are coming from - many years ago I was quite happy with the way my horses were going UNTIL I went to work for Jennie Lorriston-Clarke and I got to ride Grand Prix horses every day - WOW - my first Piaffe - WOW - when I left there and went back to riding my own horses and schooling others I realised that mine were like wooden planks.

Riding a well trained high level dressage horse is incredible! Spurred me on to school mine better.
		
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No I don't think from your reply you get where I am coming from .
I am very well trained and I am not going to name drop by whom but trainers who rode in teams and trained teams oversaw my development .
I cared for horses and rode horses who went on to be on teams .
And rode my first grandprix movements on horses who competed all over the world .
I am absolutely not a rider who has diddled around at home not doing much.


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## Goldenstar (5 October 2015)

ester said:



			Can I turn this around a bit and rather than discussing the proof, or not, that hyperflexion causes damage is there proof that classical training is good for them?
		
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Fair point ,is the high degree of collection needed for say levade good for a horse ?Its certainly not necessary .


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## ester (5 October 2015)

Also re. the crests if we are seeing that more frequently these days, even in non stallions I guess the question is whether that always suggests the horse is a product of more modern methods? OP are there any classically trained warmbloods that could compare with. And is that perhaps different to say an iberian type that is constructed differently to the modern warmblood?


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## Goldenstar (5 October 2015)

ester said:



			Also re. the crests if we are seeing that more frequently these days, even in non stallions I guess the question is whether that always suggests the horse is a product of more modern methods? OP are there any classically trained warmbloods that could compare with. And is that perhaps different to say an iberian type that is constructed differently to the modern warmblood?
		
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I think there's defiantly a difference in how the modern types of horses heads are set on .
Modern warmbloods find it very easy to overbend verses say a old fashioned baroque type horse or say Fatty (an  ID  ) it would be unkind in the extreme to over bend him and very difficult to do.


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## Auslander (5 October 2015)

ester said:



			Also re. the crests if we are seeing that more frequently these days, even in non stallions I guess the question is whether that always suggests the horse is a product of more modern methods? OP are there any classically trained warmbloods that could compare with. And is that perhaps different to say an iberian type that is constructed differently to the modern warmblood?
		
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Uta Graf might be one to look at - she is considered to be a classical trainer/rider - and does lots of GP level work bitless/bridleless. To me, her horses are similar to Valegro, in that the poll is rarely the hghest point, because it's not physically possible, not because she is training them badly!


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## tristar (5 October 2015)

good luck lola,  with thinking for yourself, we need more people promoting  discussion, deep thoughts about training who don`t follow just success in the dressage arena

I believe collection can  be shown by at moments by young horses, its natural as they achieve moments of balance, we have to listen more to the horse, to ride in a way that allows the horse to develop his whole body.

I too have seen so much damage done to horses, its heartbreaking, and totilas will be remembered not only for his high marks but he will maybe be a catalyst for change, who could not see his frustration with his riders, in front of the whole world too.


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## Lola13 (5 October 2015)

Auslander said:



			Going back to the comments about Valegro - I think it's important to differentiate between incorrect training, and conformation. If you look carefully at pictures of him working, and then relaxed he has an exceptionally large crest - and even when relaxed with his neck stretched out, his crest is higher than his poll. You can see the natural line of his neck clearly in this picture, and once you see it, it's clear that he is working correctly more often than not. Even when his face is on, or in front of the vertical - which it actually is, in the majority of the photos that I have spent the last half hour poring over, his crest still makes it appear as if he is broken over. He cannot physically have his poll as the highest point - he just isn't built that way. If he were to be presented with his poll as the highest point, he would either have to contort his neck until it snapped, or his face would have to be practically horizontal.  Perhaps the judges who mark him so highly are able to make this differentiation, where a less experienced person would see the huge crest and shout "Terrible training, terrible rider!". Perhaps the changes in how dressage horses work are down to the shift towards a more heavily muscled powerful type of warmblood for world class dressage, rather than bad training/riding. With the evolution of a heavier type of horse, with very different conformation to those ridden by the classical masters of yesteryear, I think it's important that judges and trainers evolve alongside, and take into consideration the physiology of the horses they are working with/judging.






Click to expand...

With Carl on he looks much, much better, and his neck didnt snap.


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## Goldenstar (5 October 2015)

Lola13 said:



			With Carl on he looks much, much better, and his neck didnt snap.








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He's much younger and less developed in his muscles in the pictures with Carl on him.


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## Auslander (5 October 2015)

Lola13 said:



			With Carl on he looks much, much better, and his neck didnt snap.








Click to expand...

Did you read anything I wrote, or did you just look at the picture?


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## Lola13 (5 October 2015)

Auslander said:



			Did you read anything I wrote, or did you just look at the picture?
		
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Yes Ive read it and I posted pictures where he looks much better, poll higher, and head slightly in front of vertical, so if it is impossible to be perfect, it is very possible to be much better.


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## Auslander (5 October 2015)

Lola13 said:



			Yes Ive read it and I posted pictures where he looks much better, poll higher, and head slightly in front of vertical, so if it is impossible to be perfect, it is very possible to be much better.
		
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But you didn't address my comments at all - you simply posted pictures of a much younger, less muscular horse. The poll isn't higher in those pics, the crest is less pronounced. The point I was making was that his build is what makes him look broken over, not his way of going - and this is the case with the majority of modern type dressage horses. It doesn't neccessarily mean that they are badly trained/ridden - just that the way their structure develops as they muscle up means that the position of their head is different from that of the finer built dressage horses that were around when the trainers that you prefer were riding. I think that it's not possible for every single modern rider to be wrong - so maybe we need to look more closely at how the horses they ride are bolted together.


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## tallyho! (5 October 2015)

Lola13 said:



			Video that is interesting to see, horses head goes from and to the vertical and in front of the vertical, and at times behind the vertical.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWpFXtXsDkM

An article about the fashion of the horse head carriage in piaffe. (This is particularely interesting to me, because in clasical dressage, most of the piaffe was done a good amount in front of the vertical, after that people started riding it slight in front of vertical, then on the vertical, and they now ride behind the vertical. -this is not in article) In this or similar articles of the study only the scores of the dressage tests were mentioned, horses health or wellbeing not even one time.
http://lusitanoportal.com/articles/shorter-reins-higher-scores/

Interesting read about -Working the Horse Behind the Vertical
http://www.ridingart.com/balance.htm

Some pictures of horse in front of the vertical and the clasical piaffe
http://lizditz.typepad.com/i_speak_of_dreams/2005/05/well_ridden_dre.html

Modern piaffe
http://www.eurodressage.com/equestr...ata/images/12_hagen_dujardin_valegro_0355.jpg

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Hi Lola13, I read http://lusitanoportal.com/articles/shorter-reins-higher-scores/ and it reminded me of something I read the other day http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/kick-says-charlotte-dujardin... about shorter reins wins medals (I know she is talking about contact and the lusitano article was about excessive contact). They are not similar articles at all by the way, it's just the pervading message about rein length in competition. 

I am far from putting CH & CD in the rk camp by the way!!! So how does that compare to the classical masters who ride with long reins... anyway, I think I know what GS is alluding to... why try and emulate something you know is wrong, just to win a medal? If you think modern dressage has diverted well away from where you think it should be, then don't subscribe. Or at least support those who try an uphold the original rules in the arena and the warm-up - CH et al. If that is what you want to do. It may mean not competing in BD/FEI but it's good that less and less people compete, they have to listen to their members... eventually.

I don't really want to carry on the hyperflexion debate, I don't think you need a study to prove it's damaging. It wouldn't get past the ethics committee nor is it necessary to prove it unless you had severe vision impairment.


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## tallyho! (5 October 2015)

ester said:



			Can I turn this around a bit and rather than discussing the proof, or not, that hyperflexion causes damage is there proof that classical training is good for them?
		
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I'm not sure how you compare hyperflexion to "classical" which is a collective term for correctly training a horse using it's physiology and psychology as a foundation of training... used by cavalries since Xenophons time in order to develop and preserve strength on allsorts of horses??

There was no iberian or warmblood argument then... allsorts of horses were trained for war over the centuries.

Lets not forget that dressage is just a word for training. The training was to prepare a horse to carry someone in to war without spooking and bolting off in the opposite direction. I'm not sure they cared where the head position was as long as it could see where it was going in the mud.


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## Lola13 (5 October 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			I think there's defiantly a difference in how the modern types of horses heads are set on .
Modern warmbloods find it very easy to overbend verses say a old fashioned baroque type horse or say Fatty (an  ID  ) it would be unkind in the extreme to over bend him and very difficult to do.
		
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ester said:



			Also re. the crests if we are seeing that more frequently these days, even in non stallions I guess the question is whether that always suggests the horse is a product of more modern methods? OP are there any classically trained warmbloods that could compare with. And is that perhaps different to say an iberian type that is constructed differently to the modern warmblood?
		
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Le cadre noir uses warmbloods, but after I saw this picture I gave up on the picture hunt on their pages. 

https://www.facebook.com/cadrenoirE...=568E18F4&size=2048,1365&fbid=890267994345848


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## tristar (5 October 2015)

rein length,   how often do you see the horse in extended trot also lengthen his neck, or his whole frame? as a truly well balanced horse should, to be correct.

there are pics of oliviera where the whole frame is lengthened, Iberian horses are just as variable as any other breed in the head neck connection, its not just modern warmbloods.

I understand that on many `top` dressage yards lunging YOUNG horses in tight side reins is the norm, its not just rollkur making horses go overbent.


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## tallyho! (5 October 2015)

You don't have to look at top yards even... the amount of posts on HHO saying they use pessoa's on their 4yo is enough to know how deeply the message pervades with even vets recommending (personal experience)... thankfully you can take or leave their advice and change who you register with.


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## Goldenstar (5 October 2015)

I don't think I will start on the subject of pessoas .I will get indigestion .
But I have enjoyed this thread I thank you Lola13.


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## Tnavas (5 October 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			No I don't think from your reply you get where I am coming from .
I am very well trained and I am not going to name drop by whom but trainers who rode in teams and trained teams oversaw my development .
I cared for horses and rode horses who went on to be on teams .
And rode my first grandprix movements on horses who competed all over the world .
I am absolutely not a rider who has diddled around at home not doing much.
		
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I do know where you are coming from, just I expressed myself badly.


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## Goldenstar (5 October 2015)

Tnavas said:



			I do know where you are coming from, just I expressed myself badly.
		
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Fair enough ,I do that too .


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## Lola13 (5 October 2015)

Auslander said:



			Uta Graf might be one to look at - she is considered to be a classical trainer/rider - and does lots of GP level work bitless/bridleless. To me, her horses are similar to Valegro, in that the poll is rarely the hghest point, because it's not physically possible, not because she is training them badly!
		
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interesting to look at 6. and 8. picture: http://www.ashantifarm.com/carreras.html


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## Lola13 (5 October 2015)

Auslander said:



			But you didn't address my comments at all - you simply posted pictures of a much younger, less muscular horse. The poll isn't higher in those pics, the crest is less pronounced. The point I was making was that his build is what makes him look broken over, not his way of going - and this is the case with the majority of modern type dressage horses. It doesn't neccessarily mean that they are badly trained/ridden - just that the way their structure develops as they muscle up means that the position of their head is different from that of the finer built dressage horses that were around when the trainers that you prefer were riding. I think that it's not possible for every single modern rider to be wrong - so maybe we need to look more closely at how the horses they ride are bolted together.
		
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 Compare the lines.


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## Auslander (5 October 2015)

Lola13 said:



			interesting to look at 6. and 8. picture: http://www.ashantifarm.com/carreras.html

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I like the first. I do not like the second


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## PolarSkye (5 October 2015)

Lola13 said:



			interesting to look at 6. and 8. picture: http://www.ashantifarm.com/carreras.html

Click to expand...

And your point is?  A cresty, well-developed horse will still not have his poll as the highest point . . . all this ****** about behind/in front of the vertical doesn't take into account where the horse is in its training.

P


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## Lola13 (5 October 2015)

PolarSkye said:



			And your point is?  A cresty, well-developed horse will still not have his poll as the highest point . . . all this ****** about behind/in front of the vertical doesn't take into account where the horse is in its training.

P
		
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Shape of the neck including the crest

https://www.facebook.com/cadrenoirE...oe=568A4181&size=960,626&fbid=856526267720021


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## ester (5 October 2015)

Picture 8 the piaffe, the muscle under the neck appears to be engaged almost generating a sort of swan neck like posture, the horse looks tense compared to the pic of valegro in piaffe.


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## ester (5 October 2015)

Lola13 said:



			Shape of the neck including the crest

https://www.facebook.com/cadrenoirE...oe=568A4181&size=960,626&fbid=856526267720021

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has nowhere near the neck of valegro??


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## ester (5 October 2015)

Lola13 said:








 Compare the lines.
		
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And compare a horse that always had a huge canter as a youngster/fab hind leg who is now powering himself even more from behind- surely the aim of impulsion?


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## Lola13 (5 October 2015)

Compare the lines again


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## Auslander (5 October 2015)

Lola13 said:








 Compare the lines.
		
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You may want to ensure that the image on the left is aligned horizontally before using it as a comparison with the one on the right!


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## Goldenstar (5 October 2015)

There's little point of comparing pictures as you can choose a picture that prove anything you like .
It's not really a fruitful debate .
In the the pictures you posted when you asked to look at picture 6 and 8 I thought six was a nice picture marred by the fact the horse looked down in it's back , I did not like picture 8 at all the horse  looked tense was looking backward .
However you can't form an overview of a horse from a photo chosen by someone trying to prove a point .
I could post a photo of J my horse in extended trot looking amazing , he not he's a very naughty boy .


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## Auslander (5 October 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			There's little point of comparing pictures as you can choose a picture that prove anything you like .
It's not really a fruitful debate .
In the the pictures you posted when you asked to look at picture 6 and 8 I thought six was a nice picture marred by the fact the horse looked down in it's back , I did not like picture 8 at all the horse  looked tense was looking backward .
However you can't form an overview of a horse from a photo chosen by someone trying to prove a point .
I could post a photo of J my horse in extended trot looking amazing , he not he's a very naughty boy .
		
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That's a very good point. I have one picture of my horse in passage where his poll is the highest point - he is clearly bouncing away very merrily, and his limbs are all in the correct place - but it's a horrible pic because he is tense, strong and rude. I have another where he is soft, swingy and beautifully forward, on a very light, almost loose rein, but he is behind the vertical. I know which picture I prefer.


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## Lola13 (5 October 2015)

Auslander said:



			You may want to ensure that the image on the left is aligned horizontally before using it as a comparison with the one on the right!
		
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I am not saying compare the lines of one picture to the lines of the other picture. Compare where the poll of the horse is compared to the riders body etc. 

Carl- eye of the horse/waist of the rider, poll/middle of upper arm of the rider
Charlotte- eye of the horse/saddle, poll/waist of the rider


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## ester (5 October 2015)

But to do that your lines have to be perpendicular to the floor, they aren't they are at a horizontal that doesn't exist.


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## Apercrumbie (5 October 2015)

A small bit of input on the subject of what is 'correct'.  Who decides this?  Does an older view of what is 'correct' have more sway simply because it is older?  Modern dressage certainly has many problems but I find the insistence that the classical way of training is correct very dogmatic.  Again, until I see some more scientific evidence about which way is better, I will continue to keep an open mind and enjoy a variety of methods.  Dogma rarely creates the best trainer.  

I also find the critique of Valegro a bit silly - anyone can see that he is relaxed and happy when competing, he also looks sound.  It seems the only problem is that a certain sect believes that he is slightly 'incorrect'.  Again, by whose authority?  There are far, far bigger problems in the modern dressage world than the training of Valegro.  It smacks of nit picking and point scoring.


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## Lola13 (5 October 2015)

ester said:



			But to do that your lines have to be perpendicular to the floor, they aren't they are at a horizontal that doesn't exist.
		
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Oh I get it now, sorry people.


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## ester (5 October 2015)

I think that is my point on whether classical is good for horses, or does asking them to do piaffe and passage inherently detrimental to joints/tendons/ligaments etc regardless so though is no 'right' even if classical was based on horse physiology and psychology- was the assessment of those two things correct at the time?


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## Lola13 (5 October 2015)

Apercrumbie said:



			A small bit of input on the subject of what is 'correct'.  Who decides this?  Does an older view of what is 'correct' have more sway simply because it is older?  Modern dressage certainly has many problems but I find the insistence that the classical way of training is correct very dogmatic.  Again, until I see some more scientific evidence about which way is better, I will continue to keep an open mind and enjoy a variety of methods.  Dogma rarely creates the best trainer.  

I also find the critique of Valegro a bit silly - anyone can see that he is relaxed and happy when competing, he also looks sound.  It seems the only problem is that a certain sect believes that he is slightly 'incorrect'.  Again, by whose authority?  There are far, far bigger problems in the modern dressage world than the training of Valegro.  It smacks of nit picking and point scoring.
		
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He is supposed to be the best of the best, and has the most pictures on internet of all the horses that are not famous for being in deep rollkur, thats why his pictures are used.


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## EQUIDAE (5 October 2015)

Lola13 said:



			Oh I get it now, sorry people. 








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It's more than head position. The horse on the right isn't tracking up and is hollow in the back. Neither horse is working completely correctly but I would rather see a horse working as the one on the left is - the dip behind the vertical could have been a moment in time, whereas the hollow back, lack of elevation in the shoulder and dragging hind limbs show a horse that isn't working correctly. The horse on the left, although behind the vertical, is lifted through the shoulder, is working through the back and is stepping under from behind.

Taking one part of the horse alone (and for one moment in time) doesn't give a true reflection of the overall picture.


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## paddi22 (5 October 2015)

absolute nit picking. the whole analysing pictures is a complete waste of time. If you had a ballet dancer on stage doing a move three times, im sure each pic would look different.

Breaking down issues to a few inches difference is crazy, its a living animal reacting to every step, not a machine locked into place.

Dressage is shooting itself in the foot if it takes this dogmatic approach. I love dressage, but this debate would make me go 'sod it il never do it properly unless did 5 years of perfect groundwork with an old masters I'l just run off and jump a few hedges for fun instead.!'

They would be better off working correct theory from grassroots up of relaxation and correct contact, and not just draw reining heads into place.


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## EQUIDAE (5 October 2015)

paddi22 said:



			absolute nit picking. the whole analysing pictures is a complete waste of time. If you had a ballet dancer on stage doing a move three times, im sure each pic would look different.

Breaking down issues to a few inches difference is crazy, its a living animal reacting to every step, not a machine locked into place.

Dressage is shooting itself in the foot if it takes this dogmatic approach. I love dressage, but this debate would make me go 'sod it il never do it properly unless did 5 years of perfect groundwork with an old masters I'l just run off and jump a few hedges for fun instead.!'

They would be better off working correct theory from grassroots up of relaxation and correct contact, and not just draw reining heads into place.
		
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I agree  a moment in time is just that and we need to look at the overall picture.


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## _GG_ (5 October 2015)

I'm not even going to begin to respond to many of the comments made on this thread. I find the whole thing quite disturbing if I'm being 100% honest. 

My points...

1/ Looking at a picture of a horse and thinking you can determine whether or not it is poll high is about as scientific as saying a book proves that dinosaurs didn't exist, but a deity created the earth in seven days. Yes, some photographs show horses in obvious hyperflexion where the poll is very definitely low, but there are many pictures being posted on this thread where horses of totally different form, conformation, muscle development, type and levels of relaxation are being compared against each other. You can't compare any one horse against another. Ever.

Unless you can see the skeleton in action through the skin and muscle, you cannot say with even a fraction of surety in many of these photographs being shared, whether the poll is the highest point or not. Photographs are pretty much useless for this type of debate. 

2/ Picture 8 in the last link is awful. Head position is the last thing that should be considered when looking for a correctly performing horse, I do not understand why people still focus on the position of the head over the rest of the body. Why does Valegro win so much? Because he is so fully engaged through his back, lifted through his core and round in his entire frame, sitting well back on his haunches and creating lightness and ease of movement....that's why. It's got beggar all to do with where his head is...and quite rightly so. 

3/ My main point and the one I am most passionate about - We are forgetting about the horse. I truly believe this. In every thread, article and video I've seen on the subject of head carriage, people bang on and on about where the head should be and that it should be on or just above the vertical. This is what is wanted in dressage, that is because, it is the aim, the goal, what is achieved when everything else has come together. Nobody is forcing anybody to go out and compete, so if people are putting this up as their holy grail...that's their personal issue. What I mean by that is, not all horses are the same. We can't converse in English with horses....if we could, it would be hilarious. Stop the horse half way through schooling and tell it it's head should be on or just above the vertical and you'd get laughed at by some. Not all horses are made equal....some will be out of their comfort zone in the position that humans have decided is the required ideal. Is it fair to judge a horse and rider on that? No. The masters of dressage, those on pedestals that many people quote or reference in threads like this....they all knew that. They understood that each and every mount was different and the focus was on the overall horse, not the head. They knew that years ago...but we are still obsessing over the head being in the *right* position now??? Not only that, but before hailing the masters of dressage as the pinnacle of all that is good in the world...take a closer look....some of the methods and training was downright disgraceful. I am never popular for saying that....but there it is. Not everyone is perfect. Not all horses are the same. Focussing on the head position is fruitless if what you want to do is consider the welfare of the horse (with the exception of obvious forced hyperflexion). They are all different. All I am seeing in the judging of dressage nowadays is that horses that are more correct in their frame (engaged core and hindquarters, rounded, lifted back and self carriage) are being more highly marked than those who are on or just above the vertical but hollow in the back and dropped through the core. I hope it stays that way as the latter is never a good thing to see for the well being of the horse. 

If I could promote one thing about the head position of horses in dressage or any other type of work...it would be that it's the last flipping thing that matters!


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## Lola13 (5 October 2015)

EQUIDAE said:



			It's more than head position. The horse on the right isn't tracking up and is hollow in the back. Neither horse is working completely correctly but I would rather see a horse working as the one on the left is - the dip behind the vertical could have been a moment in time, whereas the hollow back, lack of elevation in the shoulder and dragging hind limbs show a horse that isn't working correctly. The horse on the left, although behind the vertical, is lifted through the shoulder, is working through the back and is stepping under from behind.

Taking one part of the horse alone (and for one moment in time) doesn't give a true reflection of the overall picture.
		
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That picture of him does seem to have a dipped back, others not so much, but on that video. Better to look at videos. I do like better how Carl manages the horses head most of times, but horses do have dipped back with him sometimes, especially when he loosens up the reins. Gets me thinking why hollow back when just a little more freedom to the head is offered. Hmmm.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgx6IBewcU4 Carl on Valegro 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcDLLxgWa_Y Charlotte on Valegro

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_dic5ghbWA Carl on Uthopia


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## EQUIDAE (5 October 2015)

Lola13 said:



			Moment in time?

This picture shows different steps in her piaffe, so not a moment, it is entire piaffe:








The rules from British Dressage Members Hand Book:









One example of good head position:








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I actually wouldn't consider that a 'good' example. The horse is tense through the throat and is hollow in the back. The pictures shown of Valegro show a horse that is working through the back and soft through the neck. The only reason it doesn't look ike the poll is at the highest point is you are focusing on the crest, not the poll. The horse is minutely BTV.

The horse shown in the first series of pictures looks relaxed and happy to carry the rider, the horse that is shown as a good example looks tense and unhappy in his job.

ETA - I've just seen it is the same person posting both posts I have quoted. You really need to have a look at the overall picture as what you are viewing as 'good' are horses that are working with tension and don't appear happy and relaxed in their jobs.


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## Lola13 (5 October 2015)

EQUIDAE said:



			I actually wouldn't consider that a 'good' example. The horse is tense through the throat and is hollow in the back. The pictures shown of Valegro show a horse that is working through the back and soft through the neck. The only reason it doesn't look ike the poll is at the highest point is you are focusing on the crest, not the poll. The horse is minutely BTV.

The horse shown in the first series of pictures looks relaxed and happy to carry the rider, the horse that is shown as a good example looks tense and unhappy in his job.

ETA - I've just seen it is the same person posting both posts I have quoted. You really need to have a look at the overall picture as what you are viewing as 'good' are horses that are working with tension and don't appear happy and relaxed in their jobs.
		
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Where did I say everything good on this picture? Just head position, it looks similar to classical head position but it is not that, but I also said in other post that I dont like the rest as I dont like how this riders rides the horse.

Also I mentioned that I cannot find any modern rider riding in clasical style. That is why I posted some pictures in which some body part poses look similar to the real thing. Modern riders as soon as they give a little more freedom to the head everything falls apart.


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## _GG_ (5 October 2015)

EQUIDAE said:



			I actually wouldn't consider that a 'good' example. The horse is tense through the throat and is hollow in the back. The pictures shown of Valegro show a horse that is working through the back and soft through the neck. The only reason it doesn't look ike the poll is at the highest point is you are focusing on the crest, not the poll. The horse is minutely BTV.

The horse shown in the first series of pictures looks relaxed and happy to carry the rider, the horse that is shown as a good example looks tense and unhappy in his job.

ETA - I've just seen it is the same person posting both posts I have quoted. You really need to have a look at the overall picture as what you are viewing as 'good' are horses that are working with tension and don't appear happy and relaxed in their jobs.
		
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Couldn't agree more. I have a big 17.1hh warmblood dressage horse here on livery as he's retired. He's only 8 but retired for non-training related issues. He hasn't worked for 12 months now, not even been sat on - but he can have his nose 20 degrees above the vertical and would still look wrong to Lola13. He can have his poll well above his atlas and axis, but still won't look poll high because he's built that way.


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## EQUIDAE (5 October 2015)

Lola13 said:



			Also I mentioned that I cannot find any modern rider riding in clasical style. That is why I posted some pictures in which some body part poses look similar to the real thing. Modern riders as soon as they give a little more freedom to the head everything falls apart.
		
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Have a look on the Enlightened Equitation FB page and website if you want some inspiration. My favourite rider is Valdici Evaristo - truly beautiful and relaxed horses


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## Lola13 (5 October 2015)

EQUIDAE said:



			Have a look on the Enlightened Equitation FB page and website if you want some inspiration. My favourite rider is Valdici Evaristo - truly beautiful and relaxed horses
		
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Thank you very much, I have found one more modern clasical rider,

http://knighthoodoftheacademicartofriding.eu/

https://www.facebook.com/1401702626...0.1444083690./828717217174559/?type=3&theater

I am interested what people here think of this pictures, not just the head, an overall impression.


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## Goldenstar (5 October 2015)

Lola13 said:



			Thank you very much, I have found one more modern clasical rider,

http://knighthoodoftheacademicartofriding.eu/

https://www.facebook.com/1401702626...0.1444083690./828717217174559/?type=3&theater

I am interested what people here think of this pictures, not just the head, an overall impression.
		
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What do I think, it's so not what I aspire to .


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## _GG_ (5 October 2015)

Lola13 said:



			Thank you very much, I have found one more modern clasical rider,

http://knighthoodoftheacademicartofriding.eu/

https://www.facebook.com/1401702626...0.1444083690./828717217174559/?type=3&theater

I am interested what people here think of this pictures, not just the head, an overall impression.
		
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The facebook picture? A little tense but pretty good form. Something to note on this though is that the angles of the forearm and hindlimb are quite different and there is no evidence of hyperflexion and given the source, shouldn't have ever been hyperflexion used in the training of this horse....so it's a good example that leg angles do not automatically paint a picture about the horses training. Sometimes, that just how a particular horse uses itself.


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## Lola13 (5 October 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			What do I think, it's so not what I aspire to .
		
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Care to share what are the reasons? Not talking about Haute Ecole elements, just riding.


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## _GG_ (5 October 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			What do I think, it's so not what I aspire to .
		
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Me either...horse doesn't look happy and I hate the bit!


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## Lola13 (5 October 2015)

_GG_ said:



			The facebook picture? A little tense but pretty good form. Something to note on this though is that the angles of the forearm and hindlimb are quite different and there is no evidence of hyperflexion and given the source, shouldn't have ever been hyperflexion used in the training of this horse....so it's a good example that leg angles do not automatically paint a picture about the horses training. Sometimes, that just how a particular horse uses itself. 

Click to expand...

Thank you for your insight. Also would like to hear an oppinion on overall riding https://www.facebook.com/Academic-Art-of-Riding-by-Bent-Branderup-140170262695928/photos/


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## Lola13 (5 October 2015)

Me too, and his hands dont seem to be as gentle as he is saying they are.


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## _GG_ (5 October 2015)

Lola13 said:



			Thank you for your insight. Also would like to hear an oppinion on overall riding https://www.facebook.com/Academic-Art-of-Riding-by-Bent-Branderup-140170262695928/photos/

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I'm not a massive fan. Too much to go into and personal opinion....and it's late...but I will say that it's possible for anyone to use a *light* hand when you have a 3 inch shank on a bit!


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## Lola13 (5 October 2015)

_GG_ said:



			I'm not a massive fan. Too much to go into and personal opinion....and it's late...but I will say that it's possible for anyone to use a *light* hand when you have a 3 inch shank on a bit!
		
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Im talking about his hands, his seem like they would be harsh even with simplest bit. If he is pulling so hard on this shanks what would he do with a snaffle. This shanks offcourse cannot be called light whatever you do with them.


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## Lola13 (5 October 2015)

One more

http://www.anja-beran.com/photogalery.html

and one more

http://straightnesstraining.com/marijke/


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## EQUIDAE (6 October 2015)

Deleted as HM might not appreciate me nabbing her pics


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## EQUIDAE (6 October 2015)

Putting myself out there a bit here (eek) but here is my mare - I'm no pro rider and she is only 6 but I am loving the way she is coming on. I aim for uphill, a light shoulder and working through the back. the head position comes all by itself when the horse is working underneath you correctly (well as near to correctly as I am capable of asking for as I'm no CDJ or CH)







excuse my hands in this pic - it looks like a harsh contact but it was a moment-in-time thing honest













Her just over 4 months ago...







In this one she has dropped her head fractionally and is running through onto the forhand so I'm not as happy with


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## Lola13 (6 October 2015)

EQUIDAE said:



			Putting myself out there a bit here (eek) but here is my mare - I'm no pro rider and she is only 6 but I am loving the way she is coming on. I aim for uphill, a light shoulder and working through the back. the head position comes all by itself when the horse is working underneath you correctly (well as near to correctly as I am capable of asking for as I'm no CDJ or CH)







excuse my hands in this pic - it looks like a harsh contact but it was a moment-in-time thing honest













Her just over 4 months ago...







In this one she has dropped her head fractionally and is running through onto the forhand so I'm not as happy with






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What a beauty, I love her blue outfit.


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## EQUIDAE (6 October 2015)

Lola13 said:



			What a beauty, I love her blue outfit. 

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Choc mint  She only wears an ear bonnet when it is windy or there are flies about as she is a sensitive soul


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## Lola13 (6 October 2015)

So after looking all those pictures of famous riders:

Modern dressage riders: If a poll is a bit higher the head and neck are squished or/and the back is hollow, if the head goes in front of vertical or in some cases on the vertical everything falls apart.
Modern classical dressage riders: Harsh hands with even harsher bits and not enough consistency and correctness to be called a good work.


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## EQUIDAE (6 October 2015)

Lola13 said:



			So after looking all those pictures of famous riders:

Modern dressage riders: If a poll is a bit higher the head and neck are squished or/and the back is hollow, if the head goes in front of vertical or in some cases on the vertical everything falls apart.
Modern classical dressage riders: Harsh hands with even harsher bits and not enough consistency and correctness to be called a good work.
		
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It depends who you are looking at - there is a lot wrong with the world of dressage but a lot right too. Not all classical dressage riders use harsh bits and not all bits perceived as harsh actually are - a mullen mouth pelham ridden on the snaffle only is a beautiful light bit.


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## Lola13 (6 October 2015)

EQUIDAE said:



			Choc mint  She only wears an ear bonnet when it is windy or there are flies about as she is a sensitive soul 

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I love working with sensitive horses, all of mine are very sensitive and I love the way they respond to every littlest cue in training, and never let me doubt what they are thinking, they allways "tell me" right away. haha


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## ester (6 October 2015)

My morning pondering is that you really cannot separate out bits of a horse for analysis, looking at the head position is pointless without looking at the whole horses posture. If everything else is good apart from a less than 'ideal' head position that is probably still a lot better than most people manage.


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## ester (6 October 2015)

I also think that most 'classical' riders, particularly the blokes are a bit up their own arses .
Knighthoods....

Anja has always seemed a bit more normal .


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## Goldenstar (6 October 2015)

ester said:



			I also think that most 'classical' riders, particularly the blokes are a bit up their own arses .
Knighthoods....

Anja has always seemed a bit more normal .
		
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I went for some classical lesson a few years ago there had been a thread on here and I thought I would give it a whirl .
I managed three before the unpleasant ego of the trainer did for me .
There was stuff that I took away and found useful like the emphasis of positioning the horse  but I did not enjoy the lack of forward ness and expression allowed to the horse and my horse was not happy he felt frustrated by being ridden very slowly in an unnatural rhytmn for him with his head in a very up postion despite the fact he was tense and he was never being ridden through .
He's a difficult horse and I had hoped a different approach might be for him he let me know he did not like it .
The next time I took a Clydesdale / welsh D cob he had an easier mind and it was easier for me to learn rather than dealing with a horse than was upset be the system.
These two lessons were more constructive but I was struggling with the trainer who topped it by saying something so sexist and offensive that I finished the lesson left politely never to return.


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## ycbm (6 October 2015)

_GG_ said:



			I'm not a massive fan. Too much to go into and personal opinion....and it's late...but I will say that it's possible for anyone to use a *light* hand when you have a 3 inch shank on a bit!
		
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The length of shank on a bit is not the determinant of how harsh it is though. The length of the piece above the mouthpiece is also key to the leverage forces. If there was no length to the piece above the bit, there could be no pressure on the mouth or poll until the shanks were in a straight line with the rein. Most classical long shank bits seem to me to have a shorter piece above the mouthpiece than most pelhams and weymouths.

With the length of shank and top on classical bits, it's almost impossible to put any significant pressure on the mouth unless the curb is too tight,  most is done  by subtle poll pressure and by neck reining, when the reins are used at all. These long shank bits are therefore very subtle in the range of aid that they can give. And the longer the shank, the more the hand can move to create the same effect. And for the less well trained horse, they are actually, unless misused, quite forgiving is situations where they may move their head when that movement isn't wanted.

I don't ride baroque classical or in long shank bits, but they are wrongly reviled because of the way they look.

Reverence for all things old escapes me, though. The Duke of Newcastle and his era had  seats that would, today, be considered appalling. Sat back with  legs stuck forwards and only the tip of the boot in the stirrup!


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## ester (6 October 2015)

A nice quote and pic on my fb this morning 

Those, who are unable to make their horse balanced, supple and through, should rather abstain from riding gaits that can only be achieved in highest collection, than performing them in a caricatural manner." Oskar Maria Stensbeck (1858 - 1939)






the same page has this as an example of a classical piaffe, I think it is probably more like valegros than the others posted by the OP earlier (second link)

https://www.facebook.com/accademiae...479412784506/1024804297552014/?type=3&theater

http://postimg.org/image/5ao71ycvr/


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## MotherOfChickens (6 October 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			These two lessons were more constructive but I was struggling with the trainer who topped it by saying something so sexist and offensive that I finished the lesson left politely never to return.
		
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some of our more well known female 'classical' trainers are just as ego driven and prone to acting like schoolgirls behind the scenes. I gave up trying to deal with any of them.


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## Tnavas (6 October 2015)

ycbm said:



			The length of shank on a bit is not the determinant of how harsh it is though.
		
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You are actually incorrect saying this - the longer the lower shank the more the bit can be tipped and the stronger the action.

The physics behind this are that the the further from the centre the action is stronger. Take for example a spanner - the longer the spanner the easier it is to undo the nut. Its hard to undo a nut with your fingers because they are so close to the nut.

The longer the upper cheek the harsher the curb action will be as the curb chain is linked to the bit above the mouthpiece.

Pressure on the poll comes about by the double action of the bit, the shank tilting the bit forward, tightening the curb chain in the chin groove, which encourages the horse to relax the jaw, followed by the pressure on the poll lowering the horses head.


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## ester (6 October 2015)

MotherOfChickens said:



			some of our more well known female 'classical' trainers are just as ego driven and prone to acting like schoolgirls behind the scenes. I gave up trying to deal with any of them.
		
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One in particular has demonstrated that on here too!

Whereas I have done some in hand work with a classical chap who was lovely, great at answering questions and I hope I can manage to have him back sometime.


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## ycbm (6 October 2015)

Tnavas said:



			You are actually incorrect saying this - the longer the lower shank the more the bit can be tipped and the stronger the action.

The physics behind this are that the the further from the centre the action is stronger. Take for example a spanner - the longer the spanner the easier it is to undo the nut. Its hard to undo a nut with your fingers because they are so close to the nut.

The longer the upper cheek the harsher the curb action will be as the curb chain is linked to the bit above the mouthpiece.

Pressure on the poll comes about by the double action of the bit, the shank tilting the bit forward, tightening the curb chain in the chin groove, which encourages the horse to relax the jaw, followed by the pressure on the poll lowering the horses head.
		
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I am not sure how I can be wrong tnavas, when I said exactly what you have just repeated 

And let's not forget that the number one criteria in how harsh a bit is are the hands on the other end of the reins. Any bit is harsh on the wrong hands. No bit is harsh in the right hands.


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## Casey76 (6 October 2015)

ycbm said:



			I am not sure how I can be wrong tnavas, when I said exactly what you have just repeated 

And let's not forget that the number one criteria in how harsh a bit is are the hands on the other end of the reins. Any bit is harsh on the wrong hands. *No bit is harsh in the right hands*.
		
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I completely disagree with that.  There are some bits which shouldn't be allowed withn 10 feet of a horse, never mind put in it's mouth - you only have to look at "barrel racing bits."  when you have gag action, coupled with a twised wire mouth piece, the best hands in the world aren't going to make it a "good" bit.


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## Apercrumbie (6 October 2015)

I would still like to know why classical training is the 'best' and 'correct' way, in comparison to modern dressage?  Why is it better?  I don't necessarily entirely disagree, I'm just not understanding where this mythical devotion comes from.


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## Regandal (6 October 2015)

Apercrumbie said:



			I would still like to know why classical training is the 'best' and 'correct' way, in comparison to modern dressage?  Why is it better?  I don't necessarily entirely disagree, I'm just not understanding where this mythical devotion comes from.
		
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I think it's because it is recognised that horses worked in such a way remain sounder and more athletic. ie it's good for them. 
You would think that with all the technology available today that it would be possible to analyse tests against a desired 'ideal'. Leg angles etc  You can monitor heart rate too. Might remove some of the subjectivity from judging.


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## ester (6 October 2015)

In one of the studies I posted earlier they tested saliva cortisol and heart rate with head positions and the latter wasn't affected, just for info. 

I am interested to know if they do remain sounder and more athletic or not, as I said Salinero was still at the olympics at 18.


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## Apercrumbie (6 October 2015)

ester said:



			In one of the studies I posted earlier they tested saliva cortisol and heart rate with head positions and the latter wasn't affected, just for info. 

I am interested to know if they do remain sounder and more athletic or not, as I said Salinero was still at the olympics at 18.
		
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I suppose that this is my point, more evidence is needed before these sweeping claims can be made.  I am actually very pro-classical but I find this evangelism very frustrating as I firmly believe that a closed mind makes a poor trainer.  That's what I mean about the nit-picking of Valegro.  When a relaxed, happy horse is at the top of its game and yet still being criticised, it is clear that the criticism is entirely arbitrary on the basis of one school versus another, as opposed to genuine merit.


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## EQUIDAE (6 October 2015)

I love how this guy rides 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/Enlightenedequitation/permalink/10153201708053946/


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## tallyho! (6 October 2015)

Apercrumbie said:



			I would still like to know why classical training is the 'best' and 'correct' way, in comparison to modern dressage?  Why is it better?  I don't necessarily entirely disagree, I'm just not understanding where this mythical devotion comes from.
		
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I don't know to be honest... it's kind of become something it isn't. 

It's about working horses in harmony and lightness to achieve collection and it's not mythical as if you read the dressage rulebook, i actually says that this is the aim. Training a horse using this collection of principles handed down and developed from country to country, century by century will obviously result in a number of styles of classical but the harmony and lightness stays the same. It's basically training the horse using language it understands like weight aids and positive reinforcement. The ultimate aim is collection and the prescribed time to get there is roughly 10 years. This is how long it takes to train a horse properly so you can ride it with reins of spider silk and a seat like a feather (an actual saying i read somewhere from a drawing on a hotel wall). Any horse or rider can achieve collection and lightness and be a harmonious ride when these principles (the training scale) are applied. Indeed the BHS started out teaching this way and some continue to do so. 

I don't know what modern is to be fair.. but if it's anything that involves harsh training methods then I'm not interested and is probably modern.

I think modern is classical that has lost it's way a bit?


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## tallyho! (6 October 2015)

Apercrumbie said:



			I suppose that this is my point, more evidence is needed before these sweeping claims can be made.  I am actually very pro-classical but I find this evangelism very frustrating as I firmly believe that a closed mind makes a poor trainer.  That's what I mean about the nit-picking of Valegro.  When a relaxed, happy horse is at the top of its game and yet still being criticised, it is clear that the criticism is entirely arbitrary on the basis of one school versus another, as opposed to genuine merit.
		
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I agree, I don't know why the evangelistic views exist... but I can imagine why people can start to compartmentalise methods when they see things they like or don't like. e.g. rolkur is the product of "modern" dressage but it existed centuries ago under a different training style.

People forget that dressage is a collection of lots of principles. Rules are written and rewritten.

Personally, if you want to learn all you can, ride many and go to many different teachers and collect what works for you and your horses. As long as it sticks to your principles of harmony and lightness etc.

Competition is a whole different ballgame... I guess you then you need to adapt to win...


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## MotherOfChickens (6 October 2015)

for me the difference between classical and modern is purely competition. A pure classicist would never compromise what/how they feel the horse should be ridden for a test or ring showmanship and if they follow the French school more, then canter circles at Prelim are out. What I've found along the way is there is a lot of bad in both camps and a lot of misconception of both camps, both want the same result but have different ways of getting there. I now much prefer the 'stop overthinking and get on and do it camp' after years of 'not feeling worthy camp' and 'I mustn't do anything other than walk camp' -the former I learned in Portugal and my local RS.

If I had money and time, I would fully commit to the French school out of interest. I also admire Anja Beran and the in hand work of Marijke de Jong and there are one or two young classical trainers in the UK I know of, who are excellent. People are in cloud cuckoo land though if they think 'classically' trained (in all guises) horses don't break or aren't worked extraordinarily hard though.


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## Tnavas (6 October 2015)

Apercrumbie said:



			I would still like to know why classical training is the 'best' and 'correct' way, in comparison to modern dressage?  Why is it better?  I don't necessarily entirely disagree, I'm just not understanding where this mythical devotion comes from.
		
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Classical Dressage took longer to produce the horse, working systematically and steadily, increasing suppleness both longitudinally and laterally, building strength and fitness with the horse co-operating in an harmonious way. It was about getting the horse to be relaxed, with a relaxed jaw. Totally accepting the work without grinding its teeth, pinning its ears back or swishing its tail.

You only have to look at what goes around and in the horses face these days to prove that the horse is resisting. Flash nosebands, crank nosebands, double jointed bits (because horse doesn't like the single joint) In classical dressage we used a simple single jointed snaffle and horses competed in a plain cavesson noseband, done up with two fingers between horse and noseband. Young horses were broken and brought on in a Fulmer and drop - the drop done up loosely enough to allow the horse to relax its jaw and for the horse to be able to accept a cube of sugar (Spanish Riding School), the reason for the drop is to prevent the young horse even learning to open its mouth or evade the bit. We took at least a year between levels to compete - the horse working at home at least a level above what he was competing at. We rarely started competitive dressage before the horse was 5yrs old. Horses only reached the top level around 10 or more years. We took time and didn't fry the horses brain by asking so much so early.

Now its all about the flashy front legs, and until the judges can be made to mark down horses that don't work correctly behind, have their mouths open or tails swishing throughout a test then Modern Dressage is not going to improve.


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## ycbm (6 October 2015)

Tnavas, what's wrong with double joined bits?  They've been around at least fifty years, afaik, and a lot of horses prefer them to a single joint. Why do you include them in a list of things that prove that a horse is resisting?


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## tallyho! (6 October 2015)

MotherOfChickens said:



			for me the difference between classical and modern is purely competition.
		
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MOC, just wondering, do you view the difference being a modern phenomena or something that has existed since competition began? 

Equestrian sports existed in the Olympics regularly from 1912 (sporadically before that and only really jumping apparently) and the FEI wasn't founded until 1921 but if you look at pictures from then, would you say things are the same?


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## Tnavas (6 October 2015)

ycbm said:



			Tnavas, what's wrong with double joined bits?  They've been around at least fifty years, afaik, and a lot of horses prefer them to a single joint. Why do you include them in a list of things that prove that a horse is resisting?
		
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The plain french link has been around a lot longer than 50 years but was rarely used. 99% of horses were ridden in an eggbut snaffle - In the mid 70's the 'Loose ring German Hollow mouth' was the bit in fashion. The early French links had a far shorter centre plate - most often it was two small rings joined together. If you look the skeleton of the lower jar the two jaw bones that make up the bars are at the most 1" apart, while the double jointed bit reduces stops the nutcracker action it now places the joints over the top of the bars, causing bruising and in some cases breaking the skin on the sides of the mouth - see photo below.  The nutcracker action is not as harsh as some have tried to make it be - its action limited by the width of the upper jaw, and also the placing of the horses head. I've never found I've needed anything other than a single jointed bit, despite the hundreds of horses that I've schooled. I bring all mine on in a Fulmer & drop - including the TB's off the track who usually need re mouthing, they then go into a single jointed eggbutt snaffle and cavesson noseband.


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## MotherOfChickens (6 October 2015)

tallyho! said:



			MOC, just wondering, do you view the difference being a modern phenomena or something that has existed since competition began? 

Equestrian sports existed in the Olympics regularly from 1912 (sporadically before that and only really jumping apparently) and the FEI wasn't founded until 1921 but if you look at pictures from then, would you say things are the same?
		
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I dunno, I'm not that old  

I've a feeling its more modern, much can be laid at the feet of different types of horses as well but I got tired of analysing this stuff a few years ago, so I don't. I don't like to watch high level competitive dressage-I find it unattractive although mostly what I've seen is an improvement on around 10 years ago. I would rather watch some of the top WE riders tbh and that is not always pretty (although it looks more fun!).

Most of the riders we see competing are relatively young, they aren't 'made' yet in the way that some of the older 'masters' are, despite their competitive achievements. When we see the likes of late Oliveira, Racinet etc they were much older and were always evolving-all of them changed their viewpoints over the years and many were past their prime physically when we are able to see them on film. Even the likes of PK and Mendez are constantly reviewing what they do and how they get there.


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## tallyho! (6 October 2015)

MotherOfChickens said:



			I dunno, I'm not that old  

I've a feeling its more modern, much can be laid at the feet of different types of horses as well but I got tired of analysing this stuff a few years ago, so I don't. I don't like to watch high level competitive dressage-I find it unattractive although mostly what I've seen is an improvement on around 10 years ago. I would rather watch some of the top WE riders tbh and that is not always pretty (although it looks more fun!).

Most of the riders we see competing are relatively young, they aren't 'made' yet in the way that some of the older 'masters' are, despite their competitive achievements. When we see the likes of late Oliveira, Racinet etc they were much older and were always evolving-all of them changed their viewpoints over the years and many were past their prime physically when we are able to see them on film. Even the likes of PK and Mendez are constantly reviewing what they do and how they get there.
		
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Lol! 

Good points.


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## GemG (7 October 2015)

Very interesting thread...

A side from the original post being about horses head position I thoroughly recommend a look at 

www.eponatv. (Search for Dr Gerd Heuschmann) who provides a very interesting insight into the world of modern dressage and I think he is well placed to comment (think videos are called Dressage Astray).  Someone else on here has previously referred to these and they do make for interesting viewing.   

Although not about head position alone he is referring to the tension, which as we all know is then expressed through incorrect paces/frame etc etc.... And is sometimes not being penalised as we have become used to a far more extravagant 'show' rather than the correct principles of dressage.

Read also the foreword in General Decarpentary's Academic Equitation..  Refers to us taking shortcuts to achieve the circus act 'show' that is so often applauded (and he was no modern day riding master!) but is detrimental to what we are trying to achieve - the lightness, suppleness and grace that a horse at Liberty has, but with the weight and encumberance of a rider.  Again interesting reading. 

I am yet to achieve this personally..  But aim to work slowly in that direction!!


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## tristar (7 October 2015)

to add to GemG, also speed is used in the mistaken belief its  going forward, calmness is a valuable trait I am trying to breed this into my horses, and by calmness by the way I train.

its was mentioned earlier that some classical trainers look underpowered, or lacking in impulsion, at times, but I find that riding in that way unlocks the horses power, but you need to wait, and be able to set up the horse when it is ready and it will give loads, in fact if tension is the enemy it makes calm  and relaxed horses most valuable for dressage, for me the whole idea is to make the horse`s muscles energised yet soft and flexible, while keeping its mind calm.


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