# Kauto and Denman stay in training.



## TelH (20 March 2011)

Not sure if it's the right decision myself but Paul Nicholls has said on Twitter that neither Kauto nor Denman will be retired yet.


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## The Virgin Dubble (20 March 2011)

It's a tough one tbh.

Before the GC, I would have been all for retiring the pair of them, but having seen them race, I'm now not sure they are ready to retire...

They came 2nd and 3rd against much younger opposition. Take Long Run out of the equation, and they would have got 1st and 2nd. 

We, as humans, hate to see brilliant horses fading, but Denman and Kauto know no different, and clearly enjoyed themselves on Friday, beating all but one of a much younger field.

PN knows the horses inside out, and knows what he's doing, and if he gives them a light, careful campaign, there is no reason why they can't enjoy another year.

Personally, I'd be happy to take denman off his hands though, if he changes his mind...  

*ETA*
Thoughts and Vibes to Tricky Trickster, who sustained a fracture to the top of his neck yesterday. The next few days are critical according to PN, so fingers very firmly crossed for him...


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## Daffodil (20 March 2011)

You're absolutely right, Dubs.   For all the reasons you state it is a difficult one.    I thought the chances of Denman remaining in training were quite high, but I think Clive Smith has already stated (though whether he's persuadable otherwise, I suspect he might be) that Kauto has run in his last Gold Cup.     

Looking at them yesterday at the parade at Ditcheat they all looked magnificent, and I couldn't see a scratch on any of them.  

Fingers crossed for TT.   It was a horrible fall and he was down for a very long time.


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## HashRouge (20 March 2011)

Does anyone know if the parade is available online anywhere? I'm abroad so I couldn't watch it on TV.

I was kind of hoping Kauto and Denman would be allowed to bow out on the back of that amazing race, but I can understand why their owners would want to keep them in training. They are both magnificent horses, although I think Denman is perhaps aging better than Kauto.


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## The Virgin Dubble (20 March 2011)

Daffodil said:



			You're absolutely right, Dubs.   For all the reasons you state it is a difficult one.    I thought the chances of Denman remaining in training were quite high, but I think Clive Smith has already stated (though whether he's persuadable otherwise, I suspect he might be) that Kauto has run in his last Gold Cup.     

Looking at them yesterday at the parade at Ditcheat they all looked magnificent, and I couldn't see a scratch on any of them.  

Fingers crossed for TT.   It was a horrible fall and he was down for a very long time.
		
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Yep, I expected Denman to stay in training, but not Kauto if I'm honest.

The day after the GC, Denman was reported as being in fine fettle, whereas there seemed to be hints that the race had taken it out of Kauto, and he definitely wasn't going to race any more this season.

But then Denman is the tank, compared to Kauto being more like a Ferrari imho: flashy, fast, excellent performance, but needs more care, so I must admit I am less enthusiastic about Kauto staying in training.
I adore Denman, but I take nothing away from Kauto, and I would hate to see him hurt unnecessarily. 
That said, they can just as easily damage themselves fatally in the paddock at home....


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## The Virgin Dubble (20 March 2011)

HashRouge said:



			Does anyone know if the parade is available online anywhere? I'm abroad so I couldn't watch it on TV.

I was kind of hoping Kauto and Denman would be allowed to bow out on the back of that amazing race, but I can understand why their owners would want to keep them in training. They are both magnificent horses, although I think Denman is perhaps aging better than Kauto.
		
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Just my opinion, but I think the Irish bred horses do age better than the French bred in general.


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## Lobelia_Overhill (20 March 2011)

They both produced superb runs in the GC and they would both deserve to bow out after that, but I think Denman looked like he could keep going for another season...

IMO Kauto looked like he gave up after he jumped the last and was reluctant to run on up the hill, so I'm not so sure he wants to keep racing.  Maybe his fall last year took more out of him mentally/emotionally than physically?


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## ladyt25 (20 March 2011)

I certainly don't think Denman looked like he needed to retire. Not sure about Kauto to be honest I agree with the ferrari analagy there but we shall see. I wonder what they will do with them when they do retire - who own Denman? God, would lurve to have a jump on him. Bet he'd have potential to be a decent competition horse afterwards - bit of eventing etc...! Lol. Hmm, do you think we should start noting our interest to take him on now.....?! ha ha - racehorse to riding horse classes anyone?! hehe


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## Dobiegirl (20 March 2011)

Im another who before the Gold Cup thought they should retire after but after their magnificent efforts I dont think they should. Kauto  I do believe will take less racing than Denman  because he raced very young in France and its interesting that Long Run also raced as a 3year old in France and will have to be lighly campaigned if he is to have such a long career as Kauto.

Paul Nicholls will be aware that they now have a prescence in the publics hearts and will have their welfare as his no.1. priorty. I trust him to do the right thing in the horses interests.

I also wish Tricky Trickster to make a full recovery and it was a nasty fall so its touch & go by the sound of it but full marks to connections for trying their best. Not the cold hearted greed driven  owners that the antis would have us believe is behind horse racing.


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## cloudandmatrix (20 March 2011)

I love Kauto. I was really hoping that after this GC, and he did so well, that he would be allowed a retirement which he has earnt a million times over.
IMO he owes nothing to anyone, has nothing to prove, and I am pretty sad that he is going to have to continue.


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## oldvic (20 March 2011)

Both horses were bred to race. Nobody wants to see them hurt, least of all their connections, but there is still no reason that they shouldn't carry on. Yes, it is harder for them than it was against younger horses but they both showed that they still have the desire to run. Denman has a lovely rapport with Sam and, with his great friend to help him, he excelled on ground that didn't play to his strengths. Kauto travelled much better in the race than last year and was asked to go and win his race a long way from home. For me it was this, rather than lack of desire, that made him look laboured up the hill and why What a Friend could get so close to him. They may not be quite as good as they were but they deserve to be allowed to carry on doing what they appear to enjoy. After all, why should our sentiment preclude them from doing what they are still very good at?


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## CalllyH (20 March 2011)

they said on channel 4 after the race that they would stay in training but just do a couple of races. 

I agree with the others - they are still making money and fit and sound so why would they retire them?


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## MICHAELA8228 (21 March 2011)

Dubs said:



			It's a tough one tbh.

Before the GC, I would have been all for retiring the pair of them, but having seen them race, I'm now not sure they are ready to retire...

They came 2nd and 3rd against much younger opposition. Take Long Run out of the equation, and they would have got 1st and 2nd. 

We, as humans, hate to see brilliant horses fading, but Denman and Kauto know no different, and clearly enjoyed themselves on Friday, beating all but one of a much younger field.

PN knows the horses inside out, and knows what he's doing, and if he gives them a light, careful campaign, there is no reason why they can't enjoy another year.

Personally, I'd be happy to take denman off his hands though, if he changes his mind...  

*ETA*
Thoughts and Vibes to Tricky Trickster, who sustained a fracture to the top of his neck yesterday. The next few days are critical according to PN, so fingers very firmly crossed for him...
		
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Totally agree...... though I think you'll find I'm first in the queue for Denman..... ;-)


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## TelH (21 March 2011)

Seeing as everyone seems to want Denman I will be more than happy to take Kauto


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## pip6 (21 March 2011)

If (in my wildest dreams) either were mine I'd leave them training & respect the ability of their trainer to know when they've had enough & until that time take the very best care of them & pick only plum races that they will enjoy (as in conditions as far as possible in their favour & not giving too much weight away). End of the day, then went in a very tough race & beat everything bar the winner.

woudl love to have the little gelding ridden by AP M who came 3rd in the Midlands national. Such a gutsy little guy, carrying topweight through that sodden ground for 4 1/2 miles, would make an amazing endurance horse.


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## Double_choc_lab (21 March 2011)

If they do continue I may  have to get some valium.  iI's definately a case of watching through my fingers as I love to see them compete but dread anything going wrong.


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## The Virgin Dubble (21 March 2011)

Lol, I think we'll have to be a syndicate of Denman owners and share babysitting duties...  

Re Tricky Trickster:

Quote from PN on Twitter today: "Tricky Trickster stable this am and going right way at the moment."

Keeping my fingers crossed for him.


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## Whichypoohs (21 March 2011)

Well I'm keeping everything crossed for Tricky Trickster after his dreadful fall in the Midlands National. Poor, poor boy.

I wasn't impressed with Ruby Walsh; rather than stay with the stricken horse he decided to walk away and watch the race. Not the first time I've seen him turn his back on his mount, unlike the wonderful Tony McCoy who seems to have more of a heart than most and stays with the horse.

Thumbs down for Ruby from me


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## Daffodil (21 March 2011)

Whichypoohs said:



			Well I'm keeping everything crossed for Tricky Trickster after his dreadful fall in the Midlands National. Poor, poor boy.

I wasn't impressed with Ruby Walsh; rather than stay with the stricken horse he decided to walk away and watch the race. Not the first time I've seen him turn his back on his mount, unlike the wonderful Tony McCoy who seems to have more of a heart than most and stays with the horse.

Thumbs down for Ruby from me
		
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I noticed that too


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## The Virgin Dubble (21 March 2011)

That's really surprised me. Shame on Ruby.

AP McCoy has a rather aggressive riding style, which doesn't always sit well with me, but his emotional commitment to the horses he rides, is without question imho.


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## SmilingMadly (21 March 2011)

AP has said himself he doesn't like horses, so the above surprises me.

What constitutes an Irish bred, as a posed to a French or any other Country bred?


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## Starbucks (21 March 2011)

Last year I thought they should both be retired - how wrong was I and how right were the owners/trainer.

Agree maybe Kauto is past his best, maybe he should retire now, just because he used to be a real talented winner, he doesn't seem to cope so well when he needs to battle on.

Denman on the other hand - I don't think is past his best at all!  He's always been a battler who might not have the speed of the french horses, but he's kept going!!  He's like a Duocell bunny!!  

They are only 11 at the end of the day, in normal horse terms it's not that old.


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## Starbucks (21 March 2011)

SmilingMadly said:



			What constitutes an Irish bred, as a posed to a French or any other Country bred?
		
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Where they were bred, maybe???


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## Dobiegirl (21 March 2011)

To put it in to some sort of perspective Kauto has run 37 times, Denman 23.

Desert Orchid on the other hand raced 70 times.

Ibelieve Red Rum won the Grand National  when he was 12yrs old.

As long as their races are cherry picked no reason why they shouldnt race again.

Irish bred I believe is that Irish bred and registered in Ireland.


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## marmalade76 (22 March 2011)

Red Rum was actually entered in the National in '78 as a 13 year old and was only pulled out a day or two before the race.


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## teagreen (22 March 2011)

SmilingMadly said:



			AP has said himself he doesn't like horses, so the above surprises me.
		
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No, he hasn't. AP has always said how much he loves horses, how he does it for the love of horses. It was Ruby who said he didn't like horses, although I'm sure he didn't say it quite like that. Personally, I think it shines through that AP loves the horses, but Ruby not so much.

I think Denman and Kauto should stay in training. If the horses look well and want to race, they should race. Retiring them for retirings sake seems daft if they are still fit and well, and it wouldn't have happened like that in the old days. I'm sure if either of them don't show their usual spark at home, they'll think otherwise. I cried watching them race the horse day - to come 2nd and 3rd in a Gold Cup shows that you may be getting on, but by God you still have class.


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## SmilingMadly (22 March 2011)

LOL!  If you say so, I know what I know 

And yes, so an Irish bred is a horse that was simply born there.  Easily be the case that the mare travelled over there to foal, about a month before her due date, be covered and return to her permanent country of residence when safely in-foal again.  Which if in-foal on one cover, means the foal could be about 70 days old when leaving Ireland.  The point I am making, is that just because the suffix is one country, doesn't mean the horses was raised there.


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## hostler (22 March 2011)

Kauto loves Ireland I wonder if he will take it to Puncherstown festival in May.

Deman would make a good national horse they should enter him in the trials next season


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## teagreen (22 March 2011)

SmilingMadly said:



			LOL!  If you say so, I know what I know 

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Are you laughing at me? Prove it - it was Ruby Walsh who cause a hoo-ha when he said he didn't like horses. I don't recall AP McCoy ever saying "I don't like horse", but if you can prove it to me, fair enough. I could find the stuff about Ruby saying he didn't like them, and I could find stuff that says AP loves horses, but I can't be bothered. I will, however, point out a nice quote by the wonderful writer Brough Scott:

"McCoys  award as BBC Sports Personality of The Year  should not just be a cue for racing to loosen up but for the whole horse world too. Remember the most consistent reason that he gives for living the life he does? Because he loves it. So should we."

McCoy may have a different riding style from Walsh, who has a different riding style from others, just like all of us. But McCoy's love for and dedication to the horses is second to none.


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## HashRouge (22 March 2011)

Well I just had a google and the only result I could find suggesting that either McCoy or Walsh doesn't like horses was this thread....so you both need to prove it


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## teagreen (22 March 2011)

HashRouge said:



			Well I just had a google and the only result I could find suggesting that either McCoy or Walsh doesn't like horses was this thread....so you both need to prove it 

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I don't like arguing about this on poor Kauto and Denman's thread, I'm sure they will both agree that Ruby and Tony are top blokes  

I'm quite sure, off the top of my head, that it was in the H+H that a columnist had a go at Walsh because he'd admitted that he didn't really like horses, or something along those lines.

For McCoy, I would point to that quote from Brough Scott. I could go and get my McCoy autobiography, where he actually says "I do it for the love of horses" at some point, but it's all the way upstairs. However, I'm sure McCoy has said plenty of places how much he loves the animals. I just had to read the bit in a newspaper report where he said he was sitting on the turf crying and cradling Witchita Lineman's head when he died last year/year before and I was wailing. 

However, this thread wasn't for Walsh/McCoy debates, I apologise.


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## Dobiegirl (22 March 2011)

New update on Tricky Trickster from Paul Nicholls site, bright comfortable today, overall slight improvement.

Sounds like things are qoing the right way, fingers crossed.


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## oldvic (22 March 2011)

SmilingMadly said:



			LOL!  If you say so, I know what I know 

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In that case you know something about AP that AP doesn't know about himself. 

You only have to see his emotion at the deaths of Gloria Victis and Wichita Lineman or to Binocular when he won the Champion hurdle. Hardly the reaction of a man who doesn't like horses. While I respect Ruby as a jockey, you never see those sort of emotions from him.


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## sleepingdragon10 (22 March 2011)

oldvic said:



			In that case you know something about AP that AP doesn't know about himself. 

You only have to see his emotion at the deaths of Gloria Victis and Wichita Lineman or to Binocular when he won the Champion hurdle. Hardly the reaction of a man who doesn't like horses. While I respect Ruby as a jockey, you never see those sort of emotions from him.
		
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I remember vividly AP being utterly distraught after Valiramix broke his shoulder at the Festival a few years back too......was plain then, as it is now, that he isn't the cold hearted ******* some would make him out to be!

I haven't heard or read that Ruby doesn't like horses, so couldn't comment on that one, although I'm sure, years ago, Richard Dunwoody either wrote in his book, or said that HE didn't like horses much, which always seemed odd to me


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## The Virgin Dubble (24 March 2011)

SmilingMadly said:



			LOL!  If you say so, I know what I know 

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You may 'know what you know', but that doesn't necessarily mean you know a lot, or that what you know is factually correct... 

McCoy was accused of being unprofessional because he sat alone, crying and distraught, when Valiramix was fatally injured. Watch any footage of him talking about Gloria Victis, and you will see his emotion is almost palpable.

As for the French - Irish horse debate, if you look back, you will see that I stressed it was my opinion. 
My opinion is based on over thirty years of riding, owning, and being around an awful lot of different types and breeds of horses.
However, it is just my opinion.
I don't pretend to know more than anybody else... 

Tbh it's a shame your nitpicking has changed the track of a good thread.
If you're bored, perhaps you'd like to start your own about McCoy not liking horses.


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## The Virgin Dubble (24 March 2011)

Dobiegirl said:



			New update on Tricky Trickster from Paul Nicholls site, bright comfortable today, overall slight improvement.

Sounds like things are qoing the right way, fingers crossed.
		
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Update about 25 minutes ago: "Tricky Trickster stable and still improving slowly."
Sounds cautiously optimistic.


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## Clarew22 (24 March 2011)

I am 99% sure it was Ruby who said he didn't like horses in a Ch4 interview last year.  It really dissapointed me to hear that from him 

Saying that, Ruby was still with TT when he got to his feet and was lead back, so may be he just got out the way of the vets while they did their work  

Wishing TT a full and speedy recovery


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## sleepingdragon10 (24 March 2011)

Dubs said:



			Update about 25 minutes ago: "Tricky Trickster stable and still improving slowly."
Sounds cautiously optimistic. 

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Good news, even if the improvement is slight


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## millhouse (24 March 2011)

Best wishes to TT for a full recovery.


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