# Where do I stand with an incident of another livery owner letting my horse loose, out of their field...?



## WellfieldWR (14 May 2020)

Hiya! 

There has been a recent incident at my yard, whereby a new livery, of about 4 days, came to feed her horse outside the field (This is common practice at our place, remove the horse from field, feed, return to field.)
*I would like to know what/if I would have been able to claim against her, if something awful were to have happened!*

When getting her horse in, a few in the herd followed to the gate (The herd consist of 8 horses - 4 Irish draught types, 2 cobs and 2 Thoroughbred types)
When she got to the gate (which opens inwards to the field) she was nervous of the other horses and has stated she felt threatened by them and they were bullying her horse (This isn't usual behaviour of our bunch..)
When she opened the gate to get hers in, she says that she tried to only let hers through, but he was nervous from the attention of the others and the others had clocked her feed bowl waiting and were rowdy and pushy.

She claims that one of the bigger horses pulled the gate open and out of her control. 
Then the horses all pushed through the opening and ran up the driveway - She managed to keep hold of her horse though. 

Witnesses from other fields state that instead of acting straight away and putting her horse back and trying to start catching them, she called the YO, but continued to remove her horse's rug and let him nibble from his bowl - Taking time to put her rug away in the back of her car etc. 

When her horse had finished his supplement feed, she put him back and went after the others with a lead rope and as the YO arrived from the house.

My horse was unfortunately in this group that had been let out - In one direction, the driveway they ran up leads to a heavy plant and lorry park, the other way leads to a busy road...

Fortunately, my horse and the others were returned and checked, by our yard owner upon her arrival from the house - No injuries or issues.

Unfortunately, this woman has proven fairly incompetent on a number of occasions, such as feeding treats to her horse in the field, struggling with latching the electric fencing correctly and this incident. 
She was unapologetic for the incident, didn't consider our horses' welfare and in fact blamed the YO for 'lying' to her that the herd is a chilled out friendly bunch! 
She was more concerned that the YO didn't pay her more attention and apologise to her for the incident!

I am of the opinion that this is nothing to do with the YO - The field gates are secure and safe. Metal gate, with two levels of electric fencing and a chain latch.
The usual behaviours of the horses is not of this nature - I've never had an issue exiting/entering the field and been here 2 years. So, we suspect she has been feeding treats regularly, which attracts them to her, as well as having the 'new boy' in the herd. 

Additionally, my opinion is, and I am angry, that my horse was put at risk, by her incompetence (and to a degree, negligence) in leading her horse from the pasture safely. 
She states she was nervous and felt threatened by the other horses, as she doesn't know them fully, yet had walked into the field in trainers, no hat or gloves, nor a whip to help her out of any potential trouble - When I first came to the yard, I was wary for a similar reason, of not knowing the boys, so initially caught my horse in all my PPE and walk at the edge of field, so I could get out if anything did happen... but it never has done! 

As a result of this incident, she was asked to leave the next day, either returning to her old yard, or finding an alternative within 30-days - Our yard owner had zero-tolerance for the incident occurring, especially due to the livery's reaction and slow response to aid the situation and this never occurring before.
She has since left earlier, as her horse and another were playing/bickering and hers got a kicked to the knee, which meant she had to move swiftly to a yard with stables available for box-rest.

Thank you for any comments


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## meleeka (14 May 2020)

I can’t see how she was negligent in the eyes of the law if it was an accident as she’s claimed. Being stupid is unfortunately not against the law!

My first thought was that you ought to have an inner coral for a  herd with different owners if there’s no gates between the field and the road.  This would give the security of being able to remove one and close the inner gate before opening the main field gate.  She could I suppose argue that YO was negligent by not providing this.  

Hopefully your YO will be more careful who she lets in next time, but I think like most things involving sharing facilities, you just have to move on.


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## Ownedby4horses (14 May 2020)

Not a good thing to happen at all and I would have been seriously mad that she didnt take care and didnt even attempt to get the lose horses asap.  You must be very upset over it, I think a lot of people would be.  

To be honest, its happened and thank goodness no horses were injured but I think you need to put it behind you. Your YO has dealt with the issue very swiftly and sounds as though they are the type of person to now be mindful of similar ever happening again. 

If it is worrying you, that it could happen again, you need to have a chat with your yard owner. It sounds to me that they are the sort of person that may well have already planned changes but not het communicated them (no treats in the field, horses to be brought well away from the field before feeding, a buddy system so that a new/or unsure owner could go to get their horse out of the field with help).


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## ester (14 May 2020)

So your horse is fine
and she's left with a horse needing boxrest.

I think you did ok out of it.

I don't think she was in any way negligent, perhaps someone could have offered to help her to make sure the horses were ok with the new horse?


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## Ambers Echo (14 May 2020)

Allowing liveries to feed horses just outside the fields in full view of the herd is a stupid idea. It was only a matterof time before the herd got loose or one of them got kicked, milling around trying to get to the feed. I feel rather sorry for an inexperienced owner being place at risk by unsafe practices and then getting kicked off!


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## WellfieldWR (14 May 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			Allowing liveries to feed horses just outside the fields in full view of the herd is a stupid idea. It was only a matterof time before the herd got loose or one of them got kicked, milling around trying to get to the feed. I feel rather sorry for an inexperienced owner being place at risk by unsafe practices and then getting kicked off!
		
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Appreciate your comment  

It's never been an issue in the time I've been there, the horses who don't get fed regularly are pretty good and knowing who's coming to get them in and not bothering generally. 
It's not generally common practice, but as I say, there's never been problems with horses coming round the gateways previously, hence we believe she's been calling with treats etc.
There is a tie-up rail which is most often used, as you can then do proper checks of your horse etc and not have to keep hold of them... Again, not sure why the owner of the horse didn't make use of that - Would've avoided the incident!

Again appreciate your comment though


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## WellfieldWR (14 May 2020)

ester said:



			So your horse is fine
and she's left with a horse needing boxrest.

I think you did ok out of it.

I don't think she was in any way negligent, perhaps someone could have offered to help her to make sure the horses were ok with the new horse?
		
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It is a DIY/Grass livery and we all go up a different times, often don't see anyone else from my field, maybe once or twice a week!
I don't believe she'd asked for assistance or advice before going and tending her horse though.

When the horses escaped, the other liveries, from other fields were the first to start gathering up the horses and ensuring their safe return - which was a lifesaver!

Appreciate that fortunately nothing did happen, but my main question was what could I do if something had!


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## HeyMich (14 May 2020)

You say it's a settled herd, but the new livery's horse had just been introduced (4 days previously, with no gradual/separate turnout?), so the herd wasn't settled with a very new member. Not ideal, but not totally unexpected either!

I think the YO should put some better procedures in place, to stop this kind of thing happening again - a double gated area, or a rule about feeding near the herd, or both!

.


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## WellfieldWR (14 May 2020)

Ownedby4horses said:



			Not a good thing to happen at all and I would have been seriously mad that she didnt take care and didnt even attempt to get the lose horses asap.  You must be very upset over it, I think a lot of people would be. 

To be honest, its happened and thank goodness no horses were injured but I think you need to put it behind you. Your YO has dealt with the issue very swiftly and sounds as though they are the type of person to now be mindful of similar ever happening again.

If it is worrying you, that it could happen again, you need to have a chat with your yard owner. It sounds to me that they are the sort of person that may well have already planned changes but not het communicated them (no treats in the field, horses to be brought well away from the field before feeding, a buddy system so that a new/or unsure owner could go to get their horse out of the field with help).
		
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Yep - Grateful nothing tragic happened and all ok - I just feel I would hold the owner specifically accountable, due to her lack of responsiveness to the situation and leaving others to sort it out for her. 
Definitely in a better place since shes left, horses back to being chilled and no worries when i'm not up there!


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## WellfieldWR (14 May 2020)

HeyMich said:



			You say it's a settled herd, but the new livery's horse had just been introduced (4 days previously, with no gradual/separate turnout?), so the herd wasn't settled with a very new member. Not ideal, but not totally unexpected either!

I think the YO should put some better procedures in place, to stop this kind of thing happening again - a double gated area, or a rule about feeding near the herd, or both!

.
		
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Hiya,

I think this is certainly going to be discussed at next yard meeting. As I say, its not something that's ever happened before, all the other gateways lead to adjacent fields or the yard, this one unfortunately doesn't! 
The group is very chilled, even with the integration of this new boy, there had been no running around or 'sillyness' as you may expect - Very lucky group of mainly retired geldings!
I do suspect the lady was treating in the field and giving to others as she met them - but can't be sure, certainly strange that they've only ever done this with her, and none of the other horses when they've arrived new!

Glad she's out now though and the rest of us in the field have been in communication about it and ensuring we're being safe at the gateways etc!


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## ester (14 May 2020)

Unless you actually know she was treating in the field I don't think you should keep accusing her of doing so.


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## Meowy Catkin (14 May 2020)

Removing one horse from the herd and doing the gate without issue is often a tricky thing at livery yards when the livery is maybe more novice and that is combined with them being new there.

A new horse certainly can make horses behave differently from how they usually do (with no treats involved) and I'm going through it at the moment with an old mare who really should know better.

New horses crowding around a person certainly can make them nervous, frightened and feel threatened because they just don't know them and horses are BIG. I think we sometimes forget that when we handle and see the same horses all the time.

I wouldn't have put a single horse in a field alone while others were loose and running about. Horses can get frantic and do stupid things in that situation (eg jump out, crash through the fence) so a stable would have been a safer choice. She could then have safely started to catch the loose horses. No she shouldn't have wasted time fiddling with rugs.

Calling the YO for help was sensible.

I have to admit, I do feel that while she didn't do everything correctly, she has been treated harshly from what you said. I have been on yards with very novice/new owners and they do learn how to cope with emergencies but this doesn't always come naturally. 

If the YO feels that she wasn't right for the yard then they absolutely have the right to give them notice.

I also agree that a corral by the gate would be sensible especially when you have a new horse join the herd. It acts as an 'airlock' and definitely does help to prevent escapes.


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## WellfieldWR (14 May 2020)

ester said:



			Unless you actually know she was treating in the field I don't think you should keep accusing her of doing so.
		
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It has been seen and she had also shaken her bowl to call him over to her since the incident happened!


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## Firefly9410 (14 May 2020)

I think there would be nothing you could do because you would not be able to prove anything. In law you are liable for your horse even if it was deliberately let out by someone. Going forward you could ensure you have very good public liability insurance and vet fee insurance to try to protect yourself from financial damage. You could also leave a headcollar on your horse to make him easier to catch if he escapes or is let out again. Lucky you have a good YO who kicked this person off! I have seen novices before opening gate wide leading their horse right through before turning round to shut gate and it is pot luck if anything nearby follows! I think it is a skill like anything else and the very new to horses have no idea how to extract a horse from the field swiftly with minimal gate opening space and keeping hold of both horse and gate. Her attitude was bad though for not considering the loose horses an emergency and acting accordingly and for being all precious like she has been wronged!


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## Arzada (14 May 2020)

1. I wouldn't have horses fed outside the field in view of the other horses
2. I don't see why you are wondering what you could have claimed. Nothing happened that required any thought to claiming
3. I can understand why she was worried and nervous surrounded by 8 largish rowdy horses around a gate. OK so they aren't normally like this but there was a new dynamic, a new horse, and maybe they were behaving as she said.
4. Why didn't the witnesses do something useful to help her, a new livery and the 8 loose horses?
5. Why is there only one gate, the field gate between the herd and freedom to go into a dangerous situation at both ends of the drive
6. She'd only been there 4 days. Was she shown how to remove one horse from a field of 9? Seriously there aren't many people with that skill especially with unknown horses. Why wasn't she accompanied the first few times of removing her horse from the field? To give her confidence and also for the YO to assess that she was able to do this safely by herself.


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## smolmaus (14 May 2020)

Meowy Catkin said:



			I also agree that a corral by the gate would be sensible especially when you have a new horse join the herd. It acts as an 'airlock' and definitely does help to prevent escapes.
		
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As someone who, like the subject of this thread, is in the middle of getting used to a large group of new horses, not having a second gate before they could get to the lorry park or the main road has me terrified even thinking about it.


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## ester (14 May 2020)

I'm 37, riding since 4 I have only removed a horse from a herd on a handful of occasions.
Would I be worried extricating my horse from an over interested gang of others I didn't know. Yup.
Do I sometimes wish I did some things differently in an emergency situation after the situation. Yup.


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## Meowy Catkin (14 May 2020)

The thing is none of us are born knowing everything. Kind, helpful correction or tips can really help everyone. I try to be pretty forgiving as long as people want to learn and improve.

ETA - this was in response to Firefly.


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## Meowy Catkin (14 May 2020)

WellfieldWR said:



			It has been seen and she had also shaken her bowl to call him over to her since the incident happened! 

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I used to livery with a teenager that sometimes struggled to catch her pony. She would go in the field with a stubbs scoop of pony nuts and when she failed to catch the pony after all she would lob the scoop at her pony and often hit the wrong one. 

If I was there, I'd just offer to catch her pony for her. It was easier as sadly that one was a bit of a lost cause. Being hit by a feed scoop on a regular basis had made the herd a bit wary of her.


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## Pearlsasinger (14 May 2020)

I wouldn't want my horses on a yard where there is no gate to stop them getting onto a road or other harmful area tbh.  There should be a corral of electric fencing when multiple owners are trying to take horses singly out of the field.  A helpful YO would have gone with a new client to ensure that she could get her horse out of the field without problem.


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## dogatemysalad (14 May 2020)

Liveries like this lady make my blood run cold. With a settled herd, it should be possible to take a horse out without problem, unless they are very hungry or the field is overstocked. Unconfident or inexperienced owners often misread the signs and either let the horses run through the gate, or start hitting out with whips or blue pipe. 
I'm glad that the YO got rid of her, I've had a horse let out onto a road two days in succession by a new owner. No idea why they had a problem, in all the years I had him, he'd never pushed through any other time. 
Fortunately, current yard has gates so no escapee come to harm. If a new livery seems to have difficulty, I try to be around until they get used to the herd. A second person to do the gate makes things less stressful, it also deters people from whacking the horses with whips.


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## tiahatti (14 May 2020)

It sounds as though there were witnesses to this incident. Didn't they go and help her?


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## Amymay (14 May 2020)

Accidents happen.


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## Mrs. Jingle (14 May 2020)

I am rather confused. OP you are asking where do you stand when nothing actually happened to your horse or anyone else's as far as I can see from your post?  It sounds like an unfortunate accident that happened with a naive or inexperienced new livery getting out of her depth in a rather unsafe set up for all liveries getting their horses out of the field. 

I would be asking your YO to install some sort of coral that will ensure this never happens again - as just one gate between a field full of horses and very dangerous situations in both directions is just well...an accident waiting to happen!

Your assumption that it is a settled herd and it has never happened before so would not have ever happened without this new livery actually suggests to me you might possibly be rather inexperienced yourself if you rely totally on a herd of horses reacting in a given way on every occasion. No matter how laid back and compliant they normally are? You or or YO should have implemented something such as the coral idea a long time back to avoid just this sort of accident happening.

Sorry if that seems a little harsh but really do think people are so quick to start calculating the what ifs and how could I claim etc...when the responsible thing would be to think now how can I best make sure this never happens again and how could I or someone else have actually helped the other livery when she got into difficulties.


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## DabDab (14 May 2020)

Tbh the whole set up sound like an accident waiting to happen. And why would someone not offer assistance to a new livery to make sure everything runs smoothly?


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## Equi (14 May 2020)

I feel sorry for the lady. I hope her next yard works out better for her.


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## Bellaboo18 (14 May 2020)

A few things, it's not a settled herd they had a new member join 4 days ago. 

The setup sounds dangerous and I wouldn't want my horses in it. I wonder if this was just an accident waiting to happen. 

I feel sorry for the livery that wasn't offered help and has since been thrown off the yard with an injured horse. She's had a hellish 4 days. 

It seems a strange thing to think about if you could have claimed, if something had happened. I'd say it's unlikely you could. 

You seem undecided if you know if she was treating the other horses or not.


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## Auslander (14 May 2020)

Does sound a bit of a dangerous set up - and not one I'd be comfortable leaving a new, inexperienced livery to negotiate her way through. I have gates from the fields into hard standing pens on all but one of my fields, so if anyone squeezes through, they cant get out. The one field that doesn't have a pen has another exit - into the field that has a pen, so hypothetically, no-one needs to use that gate if they're worried. Everyone does, because the horses in that field are a settled herd, and they all know full well that if they cause trouble at the gate while a person is in there, attached to a horse - they will feel the sting of 1000 leadropes. 

That said, I've seen the other side of this story on a dodgy livery yards page on FB, and the woman responsible for letting these horses out sounds utterly batshit, and a troublemaker to boot!


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## Mrs. Jingle (14 May 2020)

Auslander said:



			That said, I've seen the other side of this story on a dodgy livery yards page on FB, and the woman responsible for letting these horses out sounds utterly batshit, and a troublemaker to boot!
		
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Is that the other side to this particular incident Auslander or are they discussing on FB a similar incident? 

Either way I have to say OP's rather smug and self satisfied obvious delight that this livery has been thrown off with an injured horse to find stabling for is actually rather offensive and speaks volumes to me of the attitudes on this particular yard to new liveries.


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## Auslander (14 May 2020)

Mrs Jingle said:



			Is that the other side to this particular incident Auslander or are they discussing on FB a similar incident?

Either way I have to say OP's rather smug and self satisfied obvious delight that this livery has been thrown off with an injured horse to find stabling for is actually rather offensive and speaks volumes to me of the attitudes on this particular yard to new liveries.
		
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I would say that it is the same incident - as all the points add up. I pledge to eat my own foot if I am wrong.


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## ester (14 May 2020)

nom nom. 

I just could see the other side as easily being, I moved to this nice new yard, I've not seen most of the other liveries but all the horses in the field barged through the gate as I was trying to get mine in, I called the YO as they were headed in that direction.  I was asked to leave and now my horse has been kicked and injured and is on boxrest.


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## Mrs. Jingle (14 May 2020)

Of course one also has to ask - if this new horse was turned out with such a friendly and relaxed herd how the ***k did it end up with an injured knee from a kick bad enough to require box rest? Hmmmm...perhaps not such a lovely settled friendly herd as is being claimed?  Highest risk time of injury introducing new horse to a herd.....but of course that will not sit well with OPs narrative will it?


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## Honey08 (14 May 2020)

I can see both sides to this.  You say your horses are a settled, well behaved herd, yet they all barged out of the field and her horse has been kicked on another. They’re not a settled, quiet herd.  They also sound like big, powerful horses that could be quite frightening if pushing around at a gate when you don’t know them.  I wonder if that’s why she didn’t go to catch them if she was scared.  I know I have one, possibly two liveries that would be scared to catch the two big 17h+ horses if they were charging around.  I can understand that.  I wouldn’t want them to.  I try and make all of my gates so that there is a second gate if at all possible, so that escapees can’t run onto the road.  If I was your yard owner I would have gates at the end of the driveways leading to the road and heavy plant area and I would also ban horses being fed right outside the field - whether it had been done before without incident or not.  It was an accident waiting to happen and it did...  I wouldn’t be blaming the lady personally,


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## gallopingby (14 May 2020)

WellfieldWR said:



			Hiya!

There has been a recent incident at my yard, whereby a new livery, of about 4 days, came to feed her horse outside the field (This is common practice at our place, remove the horse from field, feed, return to field.)
*I would like to know what/if I would have been able to claim against her, if something awful were to have happened!*

When getting her horse in, a few in the herd followed to the gate (The herd consist of 8 horses - 4 Irish draught types, 2 cobs and 2 Thoroughbred types)
When she got to the gate (which opens inwards to the field) she was nervous of the other horses and has stated she felt threatened by them and they were bullying her horse (This isn't usual behaviour of our bunch..)
When she opened the gate to get hers in, she says that she tried to only let hers through, but he was nervous from the attention of the others and the others had clocked her feed bowl waiting and were rowdy and pushy.

She claims that one of the bigger horses pulled the gate open and out of her control.
Then the horses all pushed through the opening and ran up the driveway - She managed to keep hold of her horse though.

Witnesses from other fields state that instead of acting straight away and putting her horse back and trying to start catching them, she called the YO, but continued to remove her horse's rug and let him nibble from his bowl - Taking time to put her rug away in the back of her car etc.

When her horse had finished his supplement feed, she put him back and went after the others with a lead rope and as the YO arrived from the house.

My horse was unfortunately in this group that had been let out - In one direction, the driveway they ran up leads to a heavy plant and lorry park, the other way leads to a busy road...

Fortunately, my horse and the others were returned and checked, by our yard owner upon her arrival from the house - No injuries or issues.

Unfortunately, this woman has proven fairly incompetent on a number of occasions, such as feeding treats to her horse in the field, struggling with latching the electric fencing correctly and this incident.
She was unapologetic for the incident, didn't consider our horses' welfare and in fact blamed the YO for 'lying' to her that the herd is a chilled out friendly bunch!
She was more concerned that the YO didn't pay her more attention and apologise to her for the incident!

I am of the opinion that this is nothing to do with the YO - The field gates are secure and safe. Metal gate, with two levels of electric fencing and a chain latch.
The usual behaviours of the horses is not of this nature - I've never had an issue exiting/entering the field and been here 2 years. So, we suspect she has been feeding treats regularly, which attracts them to her, as well as having the 'new boy' in the herd.

Additionally, my opinion is, and I am angry, that my horse was put at risk, by her incompetence (and to a degree, negligence) in leading her horse from the pasture safely.
She states she was nervous and felt threatened by the other horses, as she doesn't know them fully, yet had walked into the field in trainers, no hat or gloves, nor a whip to help her out of any potential trouble - When I first came to the yard, I was wary for a similar reason, of not knowing the boys, so initially caught my horse in all my PPE and walk at the edge of field, so I could get out if anything did happen... but it never has done!

As a result of this incident, she was asked to leave the next day, either returning to her old yard, or finding an alternative within 30-days - Our yard owner had zero-tolerance for the incident occurring, especially due to the livery's reaction and slow response to aid the situation and this never occurring before.
She has since left earlier, as her horse and another were playing/bickering and hers got a kicked to the knee, which meant she had to move swiftly to a yard with stables available for box-rest.

Thank you for any comments 

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What a strange post! It sounds as if the yard isn’t set up very safely, especially as there doesn’t appear to be a closed yard gate which would stop any horses escaping onto a main road. If l ever had to look for a livery yard this would be my first consideration. I think she’s been very sensible in leaving, it doesn’t sound as if you are very friendly. Fortunately l’ve only ever had to use a livery yard once, a long time ago, when relocating and the people there were very helpful to incomers. It sounds as if the whole set up needs reviewing with a risk assessment in place to ensure you ALL are aware of possible risks / consequences. And as you ask, suggesting that it’s possible to ‘Claim against Someone’ maybe your yard owner/ you should make this clear to anyone who may come into contact with your horse so they aren’t victimised by your thoughts or actions.


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## gallopingby (14 May 2020)

How experienced are you?


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## moosea (14 May 2020)

*I would like to know what/if I would have been able to claim against her, if something awful were to have happened! *

If something awful had happened you would have to claim against the yard owner for failing to provide a safe entrance/ exit to the field and yourself for staying at a yard knowing that yo allows such risky practices.


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## Firefly9410 (14 May 2020)

She really does not seem open to polite correction though. I mean she apparently thought people should apologise to her for the accident she caused?! If the YO had not already kicked her off I was going to suggest the OP move her horse because how can you have peace of mind being on a yard with someone who thinks it is ok to deal with escape horses when they get round to it? Especially if that person is the reason for the escape and is unapologetic and sees no fault in their own actions meaning it could easily happen again. And I realised nobody is born knowing stuff but I do believe novice owners should make an effort to educate themselves in the basic principles of horses and handling them before buying one. 



Meowy Catkin said:



			The thing is none of us are born knowing everything. Kind, helpful correction or tips can really help everyone. I try to be pretty forgiving as long as people want to learn and improve.

ETA - this was in response to Firefly.
		
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## Mule (15 May 2020)

I don't know why you think you could claim, nothing happened your horse. It comes across as some weird type of revenge for something that was an accident.

In regards to claiming, frivolous/ ridiculous claims gives insurance companies the justification to hike premiums with the result that many small businesses go under...

Frankly, if it becomes common knowledge that you are the type to take frivolous claims, I can't imagine anyone would be willing to have you as a livery client.


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## Tiddlypom (15 May 2020)

A yard with nothing to contain to contain an escapee from heading for the road, and where owners are expected to take their horses out and tie them to a rail if they want to feed them, where they are in full view of the others?

No knowledgable horse owner would keep their horses in such a place.


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## Mrs. Jingle (15 May 2020)

Firefly9410 said:



			And I realised nobody is born knowing stuff but I do believe novice owners should make an effort to educate themselves in the basic principles of horses and handling them before buying one.
		
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Well back in the day I and many others like me grew up learning and developing our horse skills from being around experienced and knowledgeable horsemen and women. By watching, listening and asking and those more experienced adults were more than happy to help guide us in correct handling, riding and caring for horses. 

Unfortunately it doesn't sound like this livery found herself on the sort of yard that has the experienced and knowledgeable people able or willing to help and guide her - I suspect that is the case on a lot of yards now. Great pity really and little wonder there is so much bullying going on. I feel rather sorry for the livery OP is griping about to be honest.


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## Equi (15 May 2020)

Ok so she could have said whoops sorry about that. But The yard failed to provide a safe area for exiting the field. I’m a relatively experienced horsewoman and if 6 large unknown horses to me escaped and I was (so I thought) on my own with one horse who may go nuts if left id not be chasing them either! I wouldn’t know who kicks or barges or what way they react to being herded. She did the right thing calling the yard owner and waiting for back up. Basic risk protocol.


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## zandp (15 May 2020)

There's a post about this on a group for bad livery yards on Facebook - so I've read the other side.  You can't claim against the livery but the yard owner - yes.

What did you expect her to do ? Leave her horse loose - who'd already had issues with these horses - and run after yours and the others to get them or do the sensible thing of ringing the yard owner and waiting for help ?


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## windand rain (15 May 2020)

I feel sorry for the kicked off livery too I am afraid. All fields should have safe exits and gates between the yard/fields and the road. It is never safe practice to have a large number of horses in a field with only one gate. It is almost always possible to prevent this type of incident The new livery may be a bit odd but that doesnt excuse the poor reception she got on this yard


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## Bellaboo18 (15 May 2020)

I would like to see the other side of this story!


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## Dusty 123 (15 May 2020)

The horses have bad manners if they are behaving like that  and it’s a dangerous set up that  needs to be investigated by animal welfare . I feel sorry for girl and her horse.


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## Auslander (15 May 2020)

Dusty 123 said:



			The horses have bad manners if they are behaving like that  and it’s a dangerous set up that  needs to be investigated by animal welfare . I feel sorry for girl and her horse.
		
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Bit of an over reaction! Horses being horses - it happens


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## gallopingby (15 May 2020)

Bellaboo18 said:



			I would like to see the other side of this story!
		
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Bella there are always at least two sides to every story BUT the simple answer to this is that a yard without a closed main gate and the ability to safely take in and out a horse is lacking a serious amount of direction. Obviously we don’t know much about the set up but it appears a rather Heath Robinson set up.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (15 May 2020)

I’ve had horses go over the top of me at a gate when I’ve been trying to get my horse out. It happens. Horses are sentient beings and their behaviour can change on any given day.

However I’ve given chase with mine in tow and got them back in the field or safely to the yard to be caught. Accidents do happen  and unless you were there to witness this happening then I think there will be a bit of your mind adding things as it’s a potential dangerous situation.

Novice people do novice things it’s to be expected. It’s not great but maybe if the YO had some rules about feeding in gateways and treating then this wouldn’t have happened.


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## zandp (15 May 2020)

There's a group about bad livery yards and debtors and there are a few posts about this from a few sides.  Importantly the horse that was kicked has been seen by a vet and is in rehab and his owner's not on this yard anymore which would seem to please everyone.


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## PurBee (15 May 2020)

I went with a girl to her livery yard to bring in her horse. We passed one gate crowded with horses waiting to be brought in, she said the 2 geldings at the front of the gate were brothers and aggressive and glad she didnt have to bring in her horse from there. I shuddered to think who could ever cope with such a situation, daily, having to deal with horses barging around gates, excited to be brought in and fed.
i’ve never liveried a horse but read this is common practice, and its no surprise to me these incidents happen. Its bound to happen, no matter the experience. 

There's a fair few liveries that now offer individual paddocks so i presume this is in response to large shared fields and field gate barging incidents happening over the years.


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## Kat (15 May 2020)

On our yard it is a condition of the insurance that there is a gate that is kept closed to prevent access to the road. I wouldn't keep my horse anywhere that was open to the road. 

We have mainly settled sensible horses handled by responsible adults but we have had a couple of unfortunate escapes and the yard gate means there is no panic and the risks are reduced. 

Having said that as the horses are only fed in their stables so if they escape they tend to head either for their stable or for the lush grassy verge on the track outside the fields.


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## Auslander (15 May 2020)

Kat said:



			Having said that as the horses are only fed in their stables so if they escape they tend to head either for their stable or for the lush grassy verge on the track outside the fields.
		
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This made me laugh, as we had an escapee last week. She could've had a fabulous time running amok, but she ambled quietly towards her stable


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## DabDab (15 May 2020)

With horses loose and dangerous areas in both directions, the very last thing I would want is someone with their adrenaline up taking chase after them. Particularly when the one horse they do have hold of is injured with no safe place to put them out of the way.


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## Pinkvboots (15 May 2020)

I don't really see the point of this post no horses were injured and the livery that let them out has left, what is there to talk about if you don't like the field set up and feel it's dangerous just go somewhere else.

I also feel any one that goes to a field full of horses with feed buckets is asking for trouble any way, it's obvious they are all going to want to come out having spotted a feed bowl.


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## 9tails (15 May 2020)

Pinkvboots said:



			I don't really see the point of this post no horses were injured and the livery that let them out has left, what is there to talk about if you don't like the field set up and feel it's dangerous just go somewhere else.

I also feel any one that goes to a field full of horses with feed buckets is asking for trouble any way, it's obvious they are all going to want to come out having spotted a feed bowl.
		
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The point is that the OP has a platform for showcasing the perceived numptiness of the new girl with a certain amount of glee.  FWIW, I wouldn't be chasing after 7 big bolshy horses that I didn't know.


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## ycbm (15 May 2020)

zandp said:



			There's a post about this on a group for bad livery yards on Facebook - so I've read the other side.  You can't claim against the livery but the yard owner - yes.
		
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I don't see how you can take a claim against the yard owner when you willingly keep your horse under those conditions.  

.


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## Gloi (15 May 2020)

This sounds an accident waiting to happen. The easiest and cheapest thing would be to make an electric fenced pen in the field round the gateway to get the horses coming in/out into before opening the field gate.


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## Pinkvboots (15 May 2020)

9tails said:



			The point is that the OP has a platform for showcasing the perceived numptiness of the new girl with a certain amount of glee.  FWIW, I wouldn't be chasing after 7 big bolshy horses that I didn't know.
		
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I think your right it seems people get great pleasure from this sort of thing basically spouting crap on a public forum


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## ester (15 May 2020)

nail, head 9tails.


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## Firefly9410 (15 May 2020)

I am totally shocked at how a lot of people have responded on this thread. I see it as the OP is worried for the future not looking for revenge. Like if her horse got loose on the main road and caused a car crash and somebody sued her she could be bankrupt and lose her home if she owns one. As for the yard set up being less than ideal I agree but also wondering what planet most of you live on because 90% of the yards I have viewed or liveried on have been like this even the more expensive ones. IME coralls around gateways are not normal or usual and main gate if there is one is usually permanently open except nights.


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## zandp (15 May 2020)

ycbm said:



			I don't see how you can take a claim against the yard owner when you willingly keep your horse under those conditions. 

.
		
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Because from what i understand the YO hasn't provided a safe environment for the horses to come in/out of the gate.  The OP is looking to claim against the livery who was in an accident apparently, if there is any claim - which you've got to seriously doubt.  Shit like this happens with horses.  It's happened to mine and I didn't sue, just dealt with the injuries.

Mine has been very slowly and carefully introduced and she's been beaten up, after recovering from that she was then moved to another field and as the owners of the horses in there told me and the yard owner there was no need to section as theirs were all calm we didn't, I turned her out in rug and boots though just in case and the next evening bought her in bitten and kicked more.  I didn't try and sue any of the people involved - the first beating up incident the horse was owned by the yard groom who was actually looking after my horse the weekend it happened as I was away.


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## ycbm (15 May 2020)

zandp said:



			Because from what i understand the YO hasn't provided a safe environment for the horses to come in/out of the gate.
		
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But everyone who is a livery there can clearly see that and has accepted both the gate situation and the practice of feeding horses just outside the gate.  The YO would possibly be liable if a horse got out on the road but I can't see how they are liable for grown adults who choose to keep their horses at that yard.  The setup is completely normal. There are many better but it's far from uncommon to have only one gate.  

If you choose to keep your horse at a place like that,  why should you expect to be able to sue the owner if it goes wrong? 

.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (15 May 2020)

Having read the thread on Facebook the livery is claiming that her contract wasn’t adhered to as the horse had several injuries that she wasn’t told about and that should have been checked over and seen to by the YO as it was in the contract her horse would be checked daily. This has apparently not happened. Just what I’ve got from reading through it. Also asked for different turnout options and was told no. Also YO called livery’s vet and told them not to recommend box rest as she wasn’t willing to let her put her now Lame horse in a stable despite that being part of the contract that boxes were available for injured/on boxRest horses.

No I am on no ones side however a Few more things came to light than is put on this very one sided thread.


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## ester (15 May 2020)

Oh that's why there was excitement at it having seen a vet. I couldn't see how that was such a bonus for the livery, but the YO called them.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (15 May 2020)

ester said:



			Oh that's why there was excitement at it having seen a vet. I couldn't see how that was such a bonus for the livery, but the YO called them.
		
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Didn’t call them out, livery did that, just called to make sure the vet didn’t recommend boxrest as she wasn’t giving her an empty stable for the injured horse.


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## Red-1 (15 May 2020)

Firefly9410 said:



			I am totally shocked at how a lot of people have responded on this thread. I see it as the OP is worried for the future not looking for revenge. Like if her horse got loose on the main road and caused a car crash and somebody sued her she could be bankrupt and lose her home if she owns one. As for the yard set up being less than ideal I agree but also wondering what planet most of you live on because 90% of the yards I have viewed or liveried on have been like this even the more expensive ones. IME coralls around gateways are not normal or usual and main gate if there is one is usually permanently open except nights.
		
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I would hope that OP has 3rd party insurance, it is cheap enough. As for the future, the offending livery has left, so I don't see that as the reason OP posted.

To me, it is all about the OP accepting the ways of the yard. OP says that they all feed at the gate, and doesn't see an issue with the one gate onto the main road. No, I would not be happy for the future. I would either ask the YO for a more secure set up, or leave.


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## ester (15 May 2020)

Cheeky Chestnut said:



			Didn’t call them out, livery did that, just called to make sure the vet didn’t recommend boxrest as she wasn’t giving her an empty stable for the injured horse.
		
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Oh definitely don't understand why the horse getting the vet was a good thing then. Much better to not need one in the first place.


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## WellfieldWR (20 May 2020)

Mrs Jingle said:



			Is that the other side to this particular incident Auslander or are they discussing on FB a similar incident?

Either way I have to say OP's rather smug and self satisfied obvious delight that this livery has been thrown off with an injured horse to find stabling for is actually rather offensive and speaks volumes to me of the attitudes on this particular yard to new liveries.
		
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OP was asking for advice on what could be a potential claim against the lady if something HAD happened. 

Your comment is unhelpful and judgemental and certainly being overlooked..


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## WellfieldWR (20 May 2020)

Firefly9410 said:



			I am totally shocked at how a lot of people have responded on this thread. I see it as the OP is worried for the future not looking for revenge. Like if her horse got loose on the main road and caused a car crash and somebody sued her she could be bankrupt and lose her home if she owns one. As for the yard set up being less than ideal I agree but also wondering what planet most of you live on because 90% of the yards I have viewed or liveried on have been like this even the more expensive ones. IME coralls around gateways are not normal or usual and main gate if there is one is usually permanently open except nights.
		
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Thank you for your supportive answer and reading and answering my original question at hand - I''ve had to disregard most of these answers unfortunately! - Thought usually the Horse and Hound forum would provide some better clarity than a facebook group or somesuch, but apparently its just as bad, so will probably deleted my post now Its been up for a while and most people seem to prefer to bash the yard, as oppose to answer the actual question!

Just an FYI for people, no I'm not money grabbing, or looking to claim unnecessarily, but please do imagine how you would feel if your horse was let loose and not caught in a timely manner and returned to his field when the front gate was open! For anyone who has seen the FB post, you will very easily be able to see the holes in the other livery's story she has fabricated about the place/YO....


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## Mrs. Jingle (20 May 2020)

WellfieldWR said:



			OP was asking for advice on what could be a potential claim against the lady if something HAD happened.

Your comment is unhelpful and judgemental and certainly being overlooked.. 

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Oh do get over yourself dear - if you feel you need to delete a post because the majority of responses question your validity and motives for posting in the first place then maybe posting on forums is not for you?


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## Red-1 (20 May 2020)

WellfieldWR said:



			Thank you for your supportive answer and reading and answering my original question at hand - I''ve had to disregard most of these answers unfortunately! - Thought usually the Horse and Hound forum would provide some better clarity than a facebook group or somesuch, but apparently its just as bad, so will probably deleted my post now Its been up for a while and most people seem to prefer to bash the yard, as oppose to answer the actual question!

Just an FYI for people, no I'm not money grabbing, or looking to claim unnecessarily, but please do imagine how you would feel if your horse was let loose and not caught in a timely manner and returned to his field when the front gate was open! For anyone who has seen the FB post, you will very easily be able to see the holes in the other livery's story she has fabricated about the place/YO....
		
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I'm sorry, but the posts here can't be deleted, as it is not Facebook. I think this is why usually there are more considered answers, because they are here forever.

My comment stands, I would not accept the current set up and would be either asking for the 'habit' of feeding close to other horses to stop, plus having a more secure set-up, or finding another yard.

I too would be peeved at the other livery, and would say more about that, but as she has already left, that is a moot point.

I did also presume you have insurance, at least 3rd party. If your horse crashed into something like a person or a Ferrari, it could prove rather expensive to you.


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## WellfieldWR (20 May 2020)

Mrs Jingle said:



			Oh do get over yourself dear - if you feel you need to delete a post because the majority of responses question your validity and motives for posting in the first place then maybe posting on forums is not for you?
		
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I don't believe there is anything to 'get over' - the original questions was regarding if there would be any grounds for me to claim IF something had happened - Unfortunately as is the way of the equestrian world, people love to judge and dig in deeper - The question have easily been answered without judgement or finger pointing.
Admin are seeking to remove the post now as i have received some further perspectives on the situation and think it would be unnecessary for the post to continue snowballing in an irrelevant direction


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## DabDab (20 May 2020)

WellfieldWR said:



			Thank you for your supportive answer and reading and answering my original question at hand - I''ve had to disregard most of these answers unfortunately! - Thought usually the Horse and Hound forum would provide some better clarity than a facebook group or somesuch, but apparently its just as bad, so will probably deleted my post now Its been up for a while and most people seem to prefer to bash the yard, as oppose to answer the actual question!

Just an FYI for people, no I'm not money grabbing, or looking to claim unnecessarily, but please do imagine how you would feel if your horse was let loose and not caught in a timely manner and returned to his field when the front gate was open! For anyone who has seen the FB post, you will very easily be able to see the holes in the other livery's story she has fabricated about the place/YO....
		
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You haven't 'had' to disregard anything, you have chosen to, because the vast majority of answers don't agree with your viewpoint, based purely on your own OP.

People have answered you question. You are unlikely to have a viable claim against this livery.


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## ester (20 May 2020)

errm the post wasn't snowballing, it was quiet since Friday, you brought it back up again.


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## DabDab (20 May 2020)

WellfieldWR said:



			I don't believe there is anything to 'get over' - the original questions was regarding if there would be any grounds for me to claim IF something had happened - Unfortunately as is the way of the equestrian world, people love to judge and dig in deeper - The question have easily been answered without judgement or finger pointing.
Admin are seeking to remove the post now as i have received some further perspectives on the situation and think it would be unnecessary for the post to continue snowballing in an irrelevant direction 

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Because your initial post about the other livery wasnt judgemental at all....


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## Meowy Catkin (20 May 2020)

WellfieldWR said:



			Hiya! 

There has been a recent incident at my yard, whereby a new livery, of about 4 days, came to feed her horse outside the field (This is common practice at our place, remove the horse from field, feed, return to field.)
*I would like to know what/if I would have been able to claim against her, if something awful were to have happened!*

When getting her horse in, a few in the herd followed to the gate (The herd consist of 8 horses - 4 Irish draught types, 2 cobs and 2 Thoroughbred types)
When she got to the gate (which opens inwards to the field) she was nervous of the other horses and has stated she felt threatened by them and they were bullying her horse (This isn't usual behaviour of our bunch..)
When she opened the gate to get hers in, she says that she tried to only let hers through, but he was nervous from the attention of the others and the others had clocked her feed bowl waiting and were rowdy and pushy.

She claims that one of the bigger horses pulled the gate open and out of her control. 
Then the horses all pushed through the opening and ran up the driveway - She managed to keep hold of her horse though. 

Witnesses from other fields state that instead of acting straight away and putting her horse back and trying to start catching them, she called the YO, but continued to remove her horse's rug and let him nibble from his bowl - Taking time to put her rug away in the back of her car etc. 

When her horse had finished his supplement feed, she put him back and went after the others with a lead rope and as the YO arrived from the house.

My horse was unfortunately in this group that had been let out - In one direction, the driveway they ran up leads to a heavy plant and lorry park, the other way leads to a busy road...

Fortunately, my horse and the others were returned and checked, by our yard owner upon her arrival from the house - No injuries or issues.

Unfortunately, this woman has proven fairly incompetent on a number of occasions, such as feeding treats to her horse in the field, struggling with latching the electric fencing correctly and this incident. 
She was unapologetic for the incident, didn't consider our horses' welfare and in fact blamed the YO for 'lying' to her that the herd is a chilled out friendly bunch! 
She was more concerned that the YO didn't pay her more attention and apologise to her for the incident!

I am of the opinion that this is nothing to do with the YO - The field gates are secure and safe. Metal gate, with two levels of electric fencing and a chain latch.
The usual behaviours of the horses is not of this nature - I've never had an issue exiting/entering the field and been here 2 years. So, we suspect she has been feeding treats regularly, which attracts them to her, as well as having the 'new boy' in the herd. 

Additionally, my opinion is, and I am angry, that my horse was put at risk, by her incompetence (and to a degree, negligence) in leading her horse from the pasture safely. 
She states she was nervous and felt threatened by the other horses, as she doesn't know them fully, yet had walked into the field in trainers, no hat or gloves, nor a whip to help her out of any potential trouble - When I first came to the yard, I was wary for a similar reason, of not knowing the boys, so initially caught my horse in all my PPE and walk at the edge of field, so I could get out if anything did happen... but it never has done! 

As a result of this incident, she was asked to leave the next day, either returning to her old yard, or finding an alternative within 30-days - Our yard owner had zero-tolerance for the incident occurring, especially due to the livery's reaction and slow response to aid the situation and this never occurring before.
She has since left earlier, as her horse and another were playing/bickering and hers got a kicked to the knee, which meant she had to move swiftly to a yard with stables available for box-rest.

Thank you for any comments 

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You specifically asked about suing the livery. 

What you actually need (like every other horse owner) is good 3rd party cover.


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## gallopingby (20 May 2020)

Wellfield are you bored? The response was you should have third party insurance, and the answer to the original question was YOU wouldn’t be able to claim. However l hope by now the security arrangements have been reviewed and there is now a closed gate into the yard. That means you have to drive to an entrance, open a gate, go through and close it behind you. Simple really! 😀 Oh and for the avoidance of doubt anyone who doesn’t close the gate could be asked to leave?


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## JFTDWS (20 May 2020)

ester said:





errm the post wasn't snowballing, it was quiet since Friday, you brought it back up again.
		
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Let's not let the facts get in the way of a good toddleresque foot-stamping flounce tantrum!


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## Auslander (20 May 2020)

OP - in a nutshell - any claim you had would be against the owner of the yard, for failing to risk assess/provide a safe environment for people to handle their horses, including bringing in/turning out. If it was my yard that this had happened on, I would fully expect any claim to be against me, not one of my liveries, who is not insured to handle other peoples horses, and who would not have been in the situation if there had been a pen/double gate setup.


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## zandp (20 May 2020)

ycbm said:



			But everyone who is a livery there can clearly see that and has accepted both the gate situation and the practice of feeding horses just outside the gate.  The YO would possibly be liable if a horse got out on the road but I can't see how they are liable for grown adults who choose to keep their horses at that yard.  The setup is completely normal. There are many better but it's far from uncommon to have only one gate.

If you choose to keep your horse at a place like that,  why should you expect to be able to sue the owner if it goes wrong?

.
		
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I wouldn't.  As the rest of my post did say.


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## Apercrumbie (20 May 2020)

Well this is precisely why we always have electric corrals before gates. All the horses here are well-mannered and trained (well...as in the case of the shetland as well-mannered as one could expect...) but very occasionally they can decide to try it on and this has prevented a good few accidents. Horses aren't machines and you need to plan for these eventualities.

OP I understand that you are worried about your horse and what could have happened, but I also feel for this livery. I've been around horses my whole life and am a very competent handler, but I would struggle with 8 large horses crowding me and being bolshy around a gate. I don't think you would be able to claim against her in the circumstances. I suggest you move on as best you can and consider asking the YO about a corral.


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