# Farouche



## SusieT (25 April 2018)

Am I the only one disappointed to see that yet again a 'superstar' dressage youngster hasn't stood up to the test of time but is still going to be bred from to make more 'flashy' but probably prone to injury horses... She has been basically retired through a 'strain' that wont stand up to work anymore that appears to have happened at 10
I certainly wouldn't want to buy the offspring of a horse who couldn't make it to even competing at the highest level due to injury - excluding the obvious external traumatic injury.

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/eilbergs-farouches-future-650663


----------



## ycbm (25 April 2018)

SusieT said:



			Am I the only one disappointed to see that yet again a 'superstar' dressage youngster hasn't stood up to the test of time but is still going to be bred from to make more 'flashy' but probably prone to injury horses... She has been basically retired through a 'strain' that wont stand up to work anymore that appears to have happened at 10
I certainly wouldn't want to buy the offspring of a horse who couldn't make it to even competing at the highest level due to injury - excluding the obvious external traumatic injury.

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/eilbergs-farouches-future-650663

Click to expand...

A friend of mine used to train with Ferdi Eilberg. She tells me that Farouche was on box rest with a tendon strain at either three or four. 

I agree with you, it is shameful to breed from her.


----------



## McFluff (25 April 2018)

I&#8217;m asking this as a genuine question...is the issue potential genetic weakness or the byproduct of being started and worked so young?
Would she have suffered that sort of (presumably work related injury) if she&#8217;d been left to mature before training hard?


----------



## ycbm (25 April 2018)

McFluff said:



			Im asking this as a genuine question...is the issue potential genetic weakness or the byproduct of being started and worked so young?
Would she have suffered that sort of (presumably work related injury) if shed been left to mature before training hard?
		
Click to expand...

Good question. Her movement was extraordinary. She was mesmerising to see in the flesh at five and six. It may be that she simply moved so huge that her body couldn't cope.   I don't know if we will ever know the answer to that one. I can't see starting these elite horses at three ending any time soon.


----------



## Orangehorse (25 April 2018)

Most horses are started at 3 though.  What a shame for the horse, so much promise after such a successful early career.


----------



## Goldenstar (25 April 2018)

The starting at three has no bearing on long term soundness in my experiance ,I have one still in work at 18 that was pulling a carriage at two .
I bought one beautiful horse started at five I got her a six she was a disaster soundness wise .
On Farouche she was beautiful and we just don&#8217;t know why and how she damaged her self one screeching halt in the paddock and a dose of bad luck is all it takes .
A soft tissue injury is not hereditary condition I do understand them breeding from her .
Very sad ,horses fail to train on for lots of reasons but it would have been lovely to see this mare through to GP.


----------



## daffy44 (25 April 2018)

McFluff said:



			I&#8217;m asking this as a genuine question...is the issue potential genetic weakness or the byproduct of being started and worked so young?
Would she have suffered that sort of (presumably work related injury) if she&#8217;d been left to mature before training hard?
		
Click to expand...


I dont think its either, she wasnt started younger than an awful lot of horses, and the Eilbergs are very experienced at producing horses through a good, solid, systematic training programme, lets not forget they also have an 18yr old horse still competing very successfully at GP.  
Personally, I think that she simply was not physically designed for the GP work, that combined with her huge movement meant that problems were almost inevitatable once she started to make the transition from Small Tour to Big Tour.


----------



## Cortez (25 April 2018)

I agree with Goldenstar, breeding from the mare - who has lovely conformation and astounding movement - makes all the sense in the world, the injury is not necessarily related to her work. Starting horses at three is the norm, I have almost always done so, and as long as they are not overworked at that age long term soundness has not been a problem in my experience.


----------



## be positive (25 April 2018)

Cortez said:



			I agree with Goldenstar, breeding from the mare - who has lovely conformation and astounding movement - makes all the sense in the world, the injury is not necessarily related to her work. Starting horses at three is the norm, I have almost always done so, and as long as they are not overworked at that age long term soundness has not been a problem in my experience.
		
Click to expand...

They have already bred several from her, embryo transfer, the oldest is 8 now so they should have some idea of what she will produce and which stallions will suit. There is so much wastage in sport horse breeding for her to have got where she did means she at least stood up to more work than many do, they just were not as high profile or successful as Farouche.


----------



## ycbm (26 April 2018)

There is so much wastage in sport horse breeding for her to have got where she did means she at least stood up to more work than many do, they just were not as high profile or successful as Farouche.
		
Click to expand...

And what an indictment that is of the whole elite scene.


----------



## Bernster (26 April 2018)

Just watched a vid of her. What an elegant horse, such a shame.


----------



## ycbm (26 April 2018)

Orangehorse said:



			Most horses are started at 3 though.  What a shame for the horse, so much promise after such a successful early career.
		
Click to expand...

I'm starting one at three myself right now. But he won't be in the school day after day, or lunged in side reins as tight as the ones Ferdi Eilberg had on my friend's four year old to warm up before riding.  I was shocked by them, but Michael walked past and said they were too long. 

I don't think the training these horses get, generally, compares with the rest of the horses started at three. 

And a regime where we know they are treated differently, with Carl and Charlotte, still didn't keep Valegro  competition sound beyond fourteen. 

Have we simply come to accept that to get the stars we will break down another ten, twenty, fifty horses along the way?


----------



## TheMule (26 April 2018)

Woodlander start them at 2, it's not like a normal person's starting at 3 (in the summer and quietly), they were happy to promote 2 year old stallions under saddle at the stallion show in January last year.
But also that freakish movement puts extraordinary strain on soft tissues so it's not very surprising.


----------



## Goldenstar (26 April 2018)

ycbm said:



			I'm starting one at three myself right now. But he won't be in the school day after day, or lunged in side reins as tight as the ones Ferdi Eilberg had on my friend's four year old to warm up before riding.  I was shocked by them, but Michael walked past and said they were too long. 

I don't think the training these horses get, generally, compares with the rest of the horses started at three. 

And a regime where we know they are treated differently, with Carl and Charlotte, still didn't keep Valegro  competition sound beyond fourteen. 

Have we simply come to accept that to get the stars we will break down another ten, twenty, fifty horses along the way?
		
Click to expand...

You cant say that theres any problem with a horse thats srill in work but stepped away from the gruelling roultine of  GP competition work after five years at top level competition.
I do agree that its alot about where the horse is trained and how and theres a lot of wastage at ALL levels of equestrian use theres a lot of lame horses working as hacks I see them out and about and think ough .
A soft tissue injury can be caused by many many things not just over training so to attribute a subtle amount of blame as you do in your post on those who produced Farouche when we dont know anything about the injury seems to me unfair .
The only thing that I think is curious is that if I had owned that horse with an soft tissue injury acquired young I would have used a much smaller lighter rider but we dont know the details so you cant really judge .


----------



## KautoStar1 (26 April 2018)

ycbm said:



			And a regime where we know they are treated differently, with Carl and Charlotte, still didn't keep Valegro  competition sound beyond fourteen.
		
Click to expand...

As far as I am aware Valegro is fit and well and always has been.  He was retired because he'd won everything and had nothing more to prove, not because he wasn't competition sound.


----------



## Goldenstar (26 April 2018)

ycbm said:



			I'm starting one at three myself right now. But he won't be in the school day after day, or lunged in side reins as tight as the ones Ferdi Eilberg had on my friend's four year old to warm up before riding.  I was shocked by them, but Michael walked past and said they were too long. 

I don't think the training these horses get, generally, compares with the rest of the horses started at three. 

And a regime where we know they are treated differently, with Carl and Charlotte, still didn't keep Valegro  competition sound beyond fourteen. 

Have we simply come to accept that to get the stars we will break down another ten, twenty, fifty horses along the way?
		
Click to expand...

You cant say that theres any problem with a horse thats srill in work but stepped away from the gruelling roultine of  GP competition work after five years at top level competition.
I do agree that its alot about where the horse is trained and how and theres a lot of wastage at ALL levels of equestrian use theres a lot of lame horses working as hacks I see them out and about and think ough .
A soft tissue injury can be caused by many many things not just over training so to attribute a subtle amount of blame as you do in your post on those who produced Farouche when we dont know anything about the injury seems to me unfair .
The only thing that I think is curious is that if I had owned that horse with an soft tissue injury acquired young I would have used a much smaller lighter rider but we dont know the details so you cant really judge .


----------



## be positive (26 April 2018)

ycbm said:



			And what an indictment that is of the whole elite scene.
		
Click to expand...

It is true in all breeding to an extent, how many bog standard horses stand up to any level of real work without something going wrong , the cobs bred randomly have numerous issues with many never doing anything like a hard days work, gone are the days of breeding from mares that hunted/ competed for several seasons then went to the local HIS stallion to produce another useful type that would live on the farm until 31/2 then brought in to be started with minimal handling until then. 

We expect far more performance from horses than we used to, we have far better veterinary care yet they are not staying fit for purpose, is it in part that we know more and look for issues, in part that they are weaker genetically and partly that they are spending too much time in stables, small paddocks and working in arenas rather than hacking about, I think everything contributes to a degree and it will get worse rather than better because horses with physical issues can be fixed and continue to work to "prove" their soundness so continuing to breed from the weaker but flashy types, survival of the fittest does not really apply to horses any more.


----------



## NinjaPony (26 April 2018)

Valegro is still sound.... reports say he is still ridden most days and hacked as normal, and still goes to demos. 
I think it's a massive shame. So much potential, such a beautiful mare (and team prospect!). But it seems that she couldn't stand up to the work. Soft tissue injuries can be problematic, and Farouche is  over 17hh with huge movement, so perhaps it has never been able to fully heal. I don't  like to speculate too much, but I will say that I think that backing a horse at 2 does it no long term favours, whatever it goes on to do.


----------



## milliepops (26 April 2018)

daffy44 said:



			I dont think its either, she wasnt started younger than an awful lot of horses, and the Eilbergs are very experienced at producing horses through a good, solid, systematic training programme, lets not forget they also have an 18yr old horse still competing very successfully at GP.  
Personally, I think that she simply was not physically designed for the GP work, that combined with her huge movement meant that problems were almost inevitatable once she started to make the transition from Small Tour to Big Tour.
		
Click to expand...

Totally agree ^^

She was the most amazing horse to watch at the lower levels, such a shame that we won't see her at GP but I can only imagine that after the first injury she must have been produced with sensitivity - the article suggested they've tried a few times so it must be a crushing disappointment to have so much untapped potential - it wouldn't be in their interests to rag her around if the intention was to get her back to competition work.
Michael has spoken at length about how their horses do a variety in their work, not all drilled in the arena so I would expect them to have the knowledge and facilities to give her the best chance - sometimes I guess it's not meant to be. 

I know there's been lots of speculation about Valegro but being fairly local I've seen him a good few times since his retirement and he looks to be very well and still able to perform super work  What more did he have to do exactly? Carl hinted at the same about Nip Tuck last year, he'd done enough, given enough... I don't think I'll expect to see him at lots of GP shows from now on (though I'd love to be pleasantly surprised, everyone loves an underdog <3)


----------



## Cortez (26 April 2018)

There are an awful lot of suppositions and subtle and inaccurate biases being bandied about here: Woodlander horses are not ridden at two, the stallions for grading are started in the spring of their three year old year, as are my own young horses, and very judiciously lightly worked in the basic paces. Riding horses hard at two is not wise or kind, and yet despite the truly awful attrition rate of TB racehorses there are still SOME that remain sound, just as there are plenty of lame horses "given time to mature". Valegro is not lame. 14 is at the cusp of performance for any sporthorse that has to show extreme suppleness; he went out at the top and that is a lovely gift to give to a horse that could not have given any more. 

People are quick to criticise, but horses are fragile creatures and the majority of injuries are actually acquired in the field.


----------



## TheMule (26 April 2018)

Cortez said:



			There are an awful lot of suppositions and subtle and inaccurate biases being bandied about here: Woodlander horses are not ridden at two, the stallions for grading are started in the spring of their three year old year, as are my own young horses, and very judiciously lightly worked in the basic paces. Riding horses hard at two is not wise or kind, and yet despite the truly awful attrition rate of TB racehorses there are still SOME that remain sound, just as there are plenty of lame horses "given time to mature". Valegro is not lame. 14 is at the cusp of performance for any sporthorse that has to show extreme suppleness; he went out at the top and that is a lovely gift to give to a horse that could not have given any more. 

People are quick to criticise, but horses are fragile creatures and the majority of injuries are actually acquired in the field.
		
Click to expand...

Well Woodlander themselves confirmed that the stallions presented had been started before Christmas. That's 2 in my book.


----------



## ihatework (26 April 2018)

Cortez said:



			There are an awful lot of suppositions and subtle and inaccurate biases being bandied about here: Woodlander horses are not ridden at two, the stallions for grading are started in the spring of their three year old year, as are my own young horses, and very judiciously lightly worked in the basic paces. Riding horses hard at two is not wise or kind, and yet despite the truly awful attrition rate of TB racehorses there are still SOME that remain sound, just as there are plenty of lame horses "given time to mature". Valegro is not lame. 14 is at the cusp of performance for any sporthorse that has to show extreme suppleness; he went out at the top and that is a lovely gift to give to a horse that could not have given any more. 

People are quick to criticise, but horses are fragile creatures and the majority of injuries are actually acquired in the field.
		
Click to expand...

Lynne at one point wrote an article about how they started their young horses and prepped the boys for grading (and maybe the girls too, I don&#8217;t recall) - she clearly justified the woodlander stance on starting as a 2yo.

But I do agree with the general gist that there is a lot of supposition going on in this thread. None of us, and possibly even Woodlander/Eilbergs, know the true reason. It&#8217;s likely to be multifactorial. 

Just a crying shame for what was looking to be an amazing horse.


----------



## Hallo2012 (26 April 2018)

Cortez said:



			There are an awful lot of suppositions and subtle and inaccurate biases being bandied about here: Woodlander horses are not ridden at two, the stallions for grading are started in the spring of their three year old year, as are my own young horses, and very judiciously lightly worked in the basic paces. Riding horses hard at two is not wise or kind, and yet despite the truly awful attrition rate of TB racehorses there are still SOME that remain sound, just as there are plenty of lame horses "given time to mature". Valegro is not lame. 14 is at the cusp of performance for any sporthorse that has to show extreme suppleness; he went out at the top and that is a lovely gift to give to a horse that could not have given any more. 

People are quick to criticise, but horses are fragile creatures and the majority of injuries are actually acquired in the field.
		
Click to expand...

Lynne actually said at the January 2017 stallion show that they started those 3yo stallions in the November of their 2yo year........................

i think lightly worked is a bit of a misnomer too-even if they are only SAT on 2/3 times a week they are being lunged hard beforehand in order to maintain the riders safety. This again was seen first hand at various stallion shows with some of the stallions on the lunge for 20+ mins which IMO is far too long. totally understand they dont want people being bronced off left right and centre, so dont understand why they insist on taking the 3yo at all.

i dont disagree with backing at 3 at all but only if you really can genuinely work them lightly-current 3yo is a small pony stallion but can be pulled out the field after a week off and go for a 20min walk with no lunging. He sees plenty of the world with no strain on his body and his schooling is about 10mins on a 35m circle.

last 3yo was a big warmblood and was equally lightly worked as had an equally nice mind.

if i was having to lunge a LOT to keep them safe i would leave them until much older.............i do blame the lunging more than the riding really, right side reins, tiny circles and BIIIIIIG trot=lame horses.


----------



## tristar (26 April 2018)

ms crowden gives advice to other breeders, but frankly  i feel anyone who backs 2 yr olds is not qualified to do so.

also a lot of her `advice` revolves around breeding for money ultimately, commercial breeding.

to give awards to a person who backs 2 yr old horses for commercial exploitation sets a very dodgy example.

monty flippin roberts, parelli, tight side reins, how people are taken in!

it surprises me no end how non horsey or novicey horsey people react when i show them top dressage horse performances and then some classical trainer clips, usually its, `i like that riding` to the classical clips.


----------



## ycbm (26 April 2018)

KautoStar1 said:



			As far as I am aware Valegro is fit and well and always has been.  He was retired because he'd won everything and had nothing more to prove, not because he wasn't competition sound.
		
Click to expand...

Did you see the problem he was having with his temple before he retired?


----------



## Scarlett (26 April 2018)

I'm pretty sure Valegro had some lameness issues before Rio. Iirc he was very lightly shown and there were comments made by Carl Hester about his soundness.

He may well be sound in his current workload but I certainly got the impression that they were retiring him because he wasn't going to stay sound as he was. Also a horse not competing allows for a different management, ie access to ingredients to aid soundness that are FEI banned etc. I'm not saying that's a bad thing btw, just saying...

I am always surprised when people are stunned at top horses being unsound. Do you really think every horse going round Badminton is 100% level? The management of these horses is key and I'm sure many, and I know of a few, top horses are kept out there with strict routine and steroid injections!

The Farouche situation is a shame, but not the first and certainly not the last...


----------



## wingedhorse (26 April 2018)

Scarlett said:



			I'm pretty sure Valegro had some lameness issues before Rio. Iirc he was very lightly shown and there were comments made by Carl Hester about his soundness.

He may well be sound in his current workload but I certainly got the impression that they were retiring him because he wasn't going to stay sound as he was. Also a horse not competing allows for a different management, ie access to ingredients to aid soundness that are FEI banned etc. I'm not saying that's a bad thing btw, just saying...

I am always surprised when people are stunned at top horses being unsound. Do you really think every horse going round Badminton is 100% level? The management of these horses is key and I'm sure many, and I know of a few, top horses are kept out there with strict routine and steroid injections!

The Farouche situation is a shame, but not the first and certainly not the last...
		
Click to expand...

This!


----------



## Hallo2012 (26 April 2018)

Scarlett said:



			I'm pretty sure Valegro had some lameness issues before Rio. Iirc he was very lightly shown and there were comments made by Carl Hester about his soundness.

He may well be sound in his current workload but I certainly got the impression that they were retiring him because he wasn't going to stay sound as he was. Also a horse not competing allows for a different management, ie access to ingredients to aid soundness that are FEI banned etc. I'm not saying that's a bad thing btw, just saying...

I am always surprised when people are stunned at top horses being unsound. Do you really think every horse going round Badminton is 100% level? The management of these horses is key and I'm sure many, and I know of a few, top horses are kept out there with strict routine and steroid injections!

The Farouche situation is a shame, but not the first and certainly not the last...
		
Click to expand...

yep...............


----------



## TheMule (26 April 2018)

Also the 4yr old full brother went lame at 4 and is written off a competitive career


----------



## {97702} (26 April 2018)

Valegro did have soundness issues but I genuinely dont think that was why he was retired - what on earth more could he do? He had nothing else to achieve or prove, so it would necessarily have been a gradual deterioration of performance as he got older and less able. Far better to retire him at the very top of his game IMO

I used to be on the same yard as the baby Woodlanders and they certainly werent over worked as 2YOs in those days!


----------



## Caol Ila (26 April 2018)

Such a shame. I guess only her connections know if it was caused by the work, a field accident, or anything else.  All I can say is that I've known many average shuffling unimpressive movers who had to retire early due to tendon injuries.  They don't get to make the news but it's terribly disappointing for their owners.  Maybe more so in a way because the average one horse amateur owner won't have a field of other prospects waiting in the wings.  Horses are pretty delicate and sh ** t happens. 

Want to make £1 million out of horses?  Start with £2 million.


----------



## wingedhorse (27 April 2018)

Lévrier;13764597 said:
			
		


			Valegro did have soundness issues but I genuinely dont think that was why he was retired - what on earth more could he do? He had nothing else to achieve or prove, so it would necessarily have been a gradual deterioration of performance as he got older and less able. Far better to retire him at the very top of his game IMO

I used to be on the same yard as the baby Woodlanders and they certainly werent over worked as 2YOs in those days!
		
Click to expand...

This too. That's my understanding.


----------



## wingedhorse (27 April 2018)

ycbm said:



			Did you see the problem he was having with his temple before he retired?
		
Click to expand...

Tempis?


----------



## ycbm (27 April 2018)

wingedhorse said:



			Tempis?
		
Click to expand...



Darned Swype!


----------



## sywell (27 April 2018)

I was present when she won the 5 & 6 year old classes  at the WBFSH and  the crowd was mesmerised but some had doubts if she would stand up to the work as her sire also had problems from a 3 year old with his legs. The offer of 3 million on the day should have been accepted but emotion is a strong force.


----------



## {97702} (27 April 2018)

wingedhorse said:



			Tempis?
		
Click to expand...

Ha ha ha..... and here was me thinking when I read that oooo I didnt know Valegro had a head problem - doh how stupid can I be


----------



## zaminda (27 April 2018)

It would be interesting to do an independent comparison of horses competing at the various levels, as I see a lot of horses who aren't sound out competing with their oblivious owners, who all think they are very knowledgeable. I would suggest the pro's probably realise when the horse isn't right a bit sooner as a generality.
I also seem to remember Carl commenting that a horse only has so many extended trots in it, or something like that, although I could have been imagining it!
One of mine is now in a decent level of work having been known as the DSS pony for the first 10 years of her working life. I don't have lots of horses, so have spent years sorting her niggling issues, and have been rewarded. People who are at the top of their game are not going to bother.
While it is sad, we also have to have the comparison with human athletes. Very few are competing at high level past 30, and if you watch them move closely they wouldn't pass a trot up.


----------



## ester (27 April 2018)

Are they oblivious though? I think quite a lot of people know their horse isn't quite right but as they do well enough anyway/probably know the cause and it isn't one for concern so they carry on. 

Carl definitely says that about extended trots.


----------



## PaddyMonty (27 April 2018)

zaminda said:



			While it is sad, we also have to have the comparison with human athletes. Very few are competing at high level past 30, and if you watch them move closely they wouldn't pass a trot up.
		
Click to expand...

Perhaps they should not be allowed to breed either.


----------



## zaminda (27 April 2018)

ester said:



			Are they oblivious though? I think quite a lot of people know their horse isn't quite right but as they do well enough anyway/probably know the cause and it isn't one for concern so they carry on. 

Carl definitely says that about extended trots.
		
Click to expand...

Some are definitely oblivious, as horse is clearly stopping due to pain, and they are just hitting it and saying how ungenuine it is! Although I agree, many know, and its not fixable, but horse is happy so carry on. I also own one of those!!


----------



## Wheels (27 April 2018)

ester said:



			Are they oblivious though? I think quite a lot of people know their horse isn't quite right but as they do well enough anyway/probably know the cause and it isn't one for concern so they carry on. 

Carl definitely says that about extended trots.
		
Click to expand...

According to Sue Dyson around 50% of comp horses may be lame and their owners, trainers, physios, non specialist vets have missed the subtle signs.


----------



## ester (27 April 2018)

The reason they started doing the biomechanic lameness systems was because panels of vets cannot agree on subtle lameness.

But I do also think plenty of owners, especially of older horses know they aren't quite right but are well managed and seemingly happy to keep going in their limits.


----------



## Goldenstar (27 April 2018)

I have an eighteen year old in work he has over the ten years hes been  here had issues with a pair of slightly impinging vertebrae, slight boney changes to one hock and damage to the main body of one of his suspensory ligaments .
All of these have resolved and are managed he remains well and happy to work .
I dont know if he would pass a five stage vetting.
Its likely hes one of these fifty per cent where Sue Dyson thinks that owners cant recognise lameness .
I dont think hes lame to any extent where its a problem  he trots up sound on the soft and hard and works happily but hes an older horse and I accept what that means .


----------



## Wheels (27 April 2018)

Goldenstar said:



			I have an eighteen year old in work he has over the ten years he&#8217;s been  here had issues with a pair of slightly impinging vertebrae, slight boney changes to one hock and damage to the main body of one of his suspensory ligaments .
All of these have resolved and are managed he remains well and happy to work .
I don&#8217;t know if he would pass a five stage vetting.
It&#8217;s likely he&#8217;s one of these fifty per cent where Sue Dyson thinks that owners can&#8217;t recognise lameness .
I don&#8217;t think he&#8217;s lame to any extent where it&#8217;s a problem  he trots up sound on the soft and hard and works happily but he&#8217;s an older horse and I accept what that means .
		
Click to expand...

As far as I know, these horses were presented to take part in the study and their owners presented them as sound but the vets taking part in the study declared them lame.


----------



## ihatework (27 April 2018)

Wheels said:



			As far as I know, these horses were presented to take part in the study and their owners presented them as sound but the vets taking part in the study declared them lame.
		
Click to expand...

Lame is quite a subjective term.
I have no doubt that 50% + of horses out competing, if examined to the Nth degree would not be completely equal on all 4 limbs. I wouldn&#8217;t class them as lame though.


----------



## ycbm (27 April 2018)

zaminda said:



			While it is sad, we also have to have the comparison with human athletes. Very few are competing at high level past 30, and if you watch them move closely they wouldn't pass a trot up.
		
Click to expand...

The difference is that human athletes choose to do that to themselves. 

I do think that at some time in the future, probably a long, long time in the future, it will be accepted that humans do not have the right to request animals to do things which will be life threatening or known to cause early onset of painful conditions, and that it will be recognised as completely unethical to breed extremes of any animal, ignoring increasing wastage rates, in order to win competitions.


----------



## Goldenstar (27 April 2018)

ycbm said:



			The difference is that human athletes choose to do that to themselves. 

I do think that at some time in the future, probably a long, long time in the future, it will be accepted that humans do not have the right to request animals to do things which will be life threatening or known to cause early onset of painful conditions, and that it will be recognised as completely unethical to breed extremes of any animal, ignoring increasing wastage rates, in order to win competitions.
		
Click to expand...

I would not hold your breath .


----------



## Cortez (27 April 2018)

ycbm said:



			The difference is that human athletes choose to do that to themselves. 

I do think that at some time in the future, probably a long, long time in the future, it will be accepted that humans do not have the right to request animals to do things which will be life threatening or known to cause early onset of painful conditions, and that it will be recognised as completely unethical to breed extremes of any animal, ignoring increasing wastage rates, in order to win competitions.
		
Click to expand...

That would be nice, but highly unlikely. It would be even nicer if they would also stop breeding deformed dogs/cats/pigs/cows, etc., but that is even less likely.


----------



## Wheels (27 April 2018)

ihatework said:



			Lame is quite a subjective term.
I have no doubt that 50% + of horses out competing, if examined to the Nth degree would not be completely equal on all 4 limbs. I wouldn&#8217;t class them as lame though.
		
Click to expand...

Not sure Sue Dyson would either.  When I spoke to her about her research she said of the horses she did see as lame that not all of them were subtle lamenesses and were actually quite obvious once pointed out.  That is why she then went on to do the research of how to see pain in a horses face so owners could recognise if the horse was in pain and has done subsequent research on other behaviours the horse may show. Maybe that is a better way to help decide whether they should be ridden / competed or not, if they are unlevel on all 4 limbs and showing behaviours / facial expressions that indicate pain then that would lead to a different conclusion than those horses who are unlevel but not exhibiting pain behaviours or facial expressions.


----------



## oldie48 (27 April 2018)

How sad! I saw her several times in the flesh and she was just lovely. I thought her movement was beautiful, naturally very expressive but not the horrible spidery front leg movement that isn't matched fom behind that you see in some horses that are seen as super stars. Having seen her when she was very young in a highly charged atmosphere she also seemed to have a good temperament. Horses get injured very easily and when they aren't able to come back into work at the highest level, they are often found competing at lower levels where there is less stress on the healed injury. Obviously this isn't an option for Farouche but I can't see any reason for not breeding from her and I look forward to seeing her progeny.


----------



## tristar (27 April 2018)

i believe that a lot of lameness can be cured by correct  work, teaching the horse to, or allowing it to move as it was meant to in a natural, gentle yet dynamic way that` frees all the joints and pulls everything straight somehow.

conversely i think a lot of dressage horses learn to move in ways that damage them, or the pressures of training demands before they reach maturity destroy the natural ability of the body to improve and mend  itself, the training breaks down the body where it should improve and enhance it.

i personally don`t see limitations on extended trot only benefits, if the  horse is working at the correct temperature and posture surely it should be effortless, how many one time   changes should a horse do in one session?  opinions vary.


----------

