# Can you successfully sue someone if you take a fall from their horse?



## Sunny08 (26 November 2010)

As title says really. An individual was invited to ride another individuals 4 yr old sports horse. Nice horse but known to be a bit a of a handful. Horse played up, put in a few bucks, individual 1 fell off. Individual 1 broke collar bone and is self employed. Now is threatening to sue individual 2 for putting her on a 'dangerous horse' and loss of income. Is this even possible - surely if you ride another persons horse you accept the liability?


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## emm0r (26 November 2010)

Well i would assume aslong as the person was aware of what they were getting on and agreed to get on the horse then no because everyone knows horses are unpredictable .... I have never heard of anybody try to sue someone though ...


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## Chestnutmare (26 November 2010)

Oh dear what is this world coming too?....presumabily the rider knew what they were doing and knew of horse?....so really it's a bit of you get you on the understanding so to sue someone else cos you fell off....daft in my eyes.


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## BBH (26 November 2010)

Everytime you get on a horse you take a risk. She is freelance so you assume not an incompetant rider and therefore must take it on the chin IMO.

Also as a freelance she should have insurance for injury loss of income etc etc.

Personally I don't think she'd get far in any claim but I hate these people who sue at the drop of a hat so maybe i'm biased.


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## Weezy (26 November 2010)

Sadly it is true   A girl at my yard had someone come to view her horse - the horse is 20+ and a schoolmistress.  As the woman was mounting she kicked the horse on the rump, the horse moved sideways, not in a dramatic fashion, but she moved.  The woman sat BEHIND the saddle and the horse did a couple of tiny bucks and said woman fell off.  After saying, at the scene and awaiting the ambulance that it was just an accident and she was cool with it, she has proceeded to sue my friend.  Luckily her insurers, NFU, are dealing with it and they have said that they prob won't contest it and just simply pay out!!!!


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## Sunny08 (26 November 2010)

I have never heard of it either - buit equally when I had a sharer for my youngster it was something I was worried about - who has liability?/ responsibility - and if it is possible surely loaning and sharing is a potential mine field!


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## nikkiportia (26 November 2010)

I can't see it happening, although who knows in this mad world?
I would imagine you can only sue if you were employed to ride? Rather than getting on the horse of your own free will as a recreational pursuit.
She wasn't forced to get on the horse was she?


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## Shay (26 November 2010)

Sadly yes - and they will very probably win.  That is why our insurance premiums are so high.

There is strict liability with horses.  So even if the injury was entirely the human's fault, even if they had no permission to ride the horse (neither the case here I recognise) then the injured party can still sue and win.  In this case the fact that the horse was known to be a handful might act to reduce the amount of damages payable - a doctrine called "volenti non fit injuria" it will not affect the fact that the rider will probably win.  

The owner needs to get in contact with the insurer ASAP.  They will take the matter on.

The lesson here - never be without 3rd party liability insurance!


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## Sunny08 (26 November 2010)

And yes they are on the same yard so she knew the horse very well and is a competant rider. Just seems ridiculous to me!


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## JanetGeorge (26 November 2010)

Sunny08 said:



			Now is threatening to sue individual 2 for putting her on a 'dangerous horse' and loss of income. Is this even possible - surely if you ride another persons horse you accept the liability?
		
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Yes - and No!  It depends very much on the circumstances.  Was the owner of the horse more knowledgeable than the the person she invited to ride?  If so, it could be argued that she should have known her horse was too much for the other rider.  That would be negligence.  If the injured rider was just as experienced as the owner - and knew the horse was 'difficult' but still got on - then it could be argued she accepted the risk.

But as things stand at present - due to a recent High Court judgement - the owner of ANY horse can be found to have full liability for any injury or damage it causes, because - the Court found - a horse is a potentially dangerous and unpredictable animal and the owner should KNOW that.  So even if there is no 'fault' on the part of the owner, the owner may still be found liable.  That's why insurance is so important.


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## tallyho! (26 November 2010)

Weezy said:



			Sadly it is true   A girl at my yard had someone come to view her horse - the horse is 20+ and a schoolmistress.  As the woman was mounting she kicked the horse on the rump, the horse moved sideways, not in a dramatic fashion, but she moved.  The woman sat BEHIND the saddle and the horse did a couple of tiny bucks and said woman fell off.  After saying, at the scene and awaiting the ambulance that it was just an accident and she was cool with it, she has proceeded to sue my friend.  Luckily her insurers, NFU, are dealing with it and they have said that they prob won't contest it and just simply pay out!!!!
		
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No way!!!! I'm shocked that NFU are even considering paying.

Should have thought about riders insurance in my humble opinion. 

Now I've read this, the next person to ride my horse I'm going to make them sign a sheet of paper saying anything that happens is thier responsibility. Or at the very least ask if they are insured. I mean you can be insured from BHS for 50 quid.


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## nikkiportia (26 November 2010)

Bloomin 'eck, I'm never letting anyone else ride my youngster!


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## smellsofhorse (26 November 2010)

I wouldnt think so as they had the choice and decided to ride it.

Maybe if the horse was known as a total dangerous nutter and the owner didnt say anything, but a 4 year old who is a bit of a handful isnt that.


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## tallyho! (26 November 2010)

"But as things stand at present - due to a recent High Court judgement - the owner of ANY horse can be found to have full liability for any injury or damage it causes, because - the Court found - a horse is a potentially dangerous and unpredictable animal and the owner should KNOW that. So even if there is no 'fault' on the part of the owner, the owner may still be found liable. That's why insurance is so important. " (forgot to push quote button)

Does this mean riding schools will now be liable for every buck & fall???

Oh well that's that then for the whole of equestrianism.


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## JanetGeorge (26 November 2010)

tallyho! said:






			Does this mean riding schools will now be liable for every buck & fall???

Oh well that's that then for the whole of equestrianism.
		
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Potentially, yes!  But this judgement is about 2 years old - and we're still surviving!  There IS talk of legal clarification at some stage - because it IS a bit silly.  And not every judge will follow in their Lordships' footsteps for every case (although if a Judge threw a claim out, it could still be appealed.)
		
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## dieseldog (26 November 2010)

tallyho! said:



			Now I've read this, the next person to ride my horse I'm going to make them sign a sheet of paper saying anything that happens is thier responsibility. Or at the very least ask if they are insured. I mean you can be insured from BHS for 50 quid.
		
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Wouldn't waste your time, its not worth the paper its written on.  You are still liable.  You need the insurance - not them.


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## Luci07 (26 November 2010)

Yet the irony is (and I checked when thinking of sharers for my mare) - they need their own riders insurance to be covered when riding my horse YET my own liability would cover them anyway? 

Made me think though - will be putting my boy up for sale at some point - better check the insurance - hes very straightforward but still a horse!


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## kirstie (26 November 2010)

What about if you had an injury at work backing a young horse you didn't think was ready but you felt pressured into doing? Not forced, but a lot of pressure. 
The result being a very nasty fall and broken back.

Could you sue for that?


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## MissTyc (26 November 2010)

and yet someone I know was badly kicked through no fault of her own (passing horse, she stood to the side on bridleway, horse kicked her), severely injuring her leg ... she sued for loss of earnings for while she was in hospital (6 weeks) and lost because "horses will be horses".


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## Merlotmonster (26 November 2010)

kirstie said:



			What about if you had an injury at work backing a young horse you didn't think was ready but you felt pressured into doing? Not forced, but a lot of pressure. 
The result being a very nasty fall and broken back.

Could you sue for that?
		
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Yes, and I settled a claim in very similar circumstances a few years back.


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## Twizzel (26 November 2010)

I ride other peoples horses all of the time and wouldn't dream of suing... ride at your own risk especially if you know the horse has a few quirks.


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## foraday (26 November 2010)

Yes but it does depend upon circumstances!

Friend had similar happen but owners did lie about what the horse had done for the 3 days previous like just stood in stable!

So insurers just paid out!


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## kirstie (26 November 2010)

Twizzel said:



			I ride other peoples horses all of the time and wouldn't dream of suing... ride at your own risk especially if you know the horse has a few quirks.
		
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So you are saying that if you had a really nasty injury, lost your job, spent ages in hospital, couldn't afford to keep your horse anymore, let alone yourself you wouldn't want to sue for loss of earnings?


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## Hippona (26 November 2010)

kirstie said:



			So you are saying that if you had a really nasty injury, lost your job, spent ages in hospital, couldn't afford to keep your horse anymore, let alone yourself you wouldn't want to sue for loss of earnings?
		
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Why should you be able to, frankly? 
You make the choice whether to put your foot in the stirrup or not, unless someone had your arm up your back


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## The Fuzzy Furry (26 November 2010)

I have a clause in the loan agreement I gave to the current people (nice ones) who loan my old pony.
It roughly says that THEY take all liability whist she in in their care, this includes being ridden. Whilst I also included that 'nobody else should ride the pony except the loan family' and 'this agreement could be immediately terminated if the loan family break any clauses', I accept that kids will do daft things & swap ponies when they are out of parents/adult supervision - and they will hop on bareback too to come in from fields etc. (Havent' we all?).
I made mum aware of this & insisted she took out BHS membership to cover in the event of accident.

Sadly, as Janet George mentions earlier - Insurance IS an absolute must.


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## R2R (26 November 2010)

OMG, surely it is simple, you sit on a horse, you decide, and you take the risk.


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## **Vanner** (26 November 2010)

When I was a sharer I had full riders insurance which covered me for loss of earnings as well as public liability, tack and injury to the horse.  If I was sharing my boy I would insist on this cover not just public liability from a sharer for this exact reason.


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## Maizy (26 November 2010)

dieseldog said:



			Wouldn't waste your time, its not worth the paper its written on.  You are still liable.  You need the insurance - not them.
		
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tallyho! said:



			No way!!!! I'm shocked that NFU are even considering paying.

Should have thought about riders insurance in my humble opinion. 

Now I've read this, the next person to ride my horse I'm going to make them sign a sheet of paper saying anything that happens is thier responsibility. Or at the very least ask if they are insured. I mean you can be insured from BHS for 50 quid.
		
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So do you think the BHS would not cover you should this happen and someone tried to sue?  Only this is my only 3rd party insurance, I joined specifically for this reason.  The rest of my insurance is covered by NFU.  Would this cover me for both paid riders/friends to ride/train my horse?

Slightly off topic, but what happened if your horse did this to you?  I'm recovering from a broken back, horses are horses and my bum was not as secure as it should have been.  Does anyone do insurance for loss of earnings? I've looked but got lost in insurance waffle and in hindsight in might have helped my current poverty!


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## Tannis (26 November 2010)

As others have said it really depends on the circumstances.

First of all, the rider appears to have agreed to ride a young horse that she knew was lively and therefore, if negligence on part of the owner can be established, the rider contributed to the negligence by accepting the risk.  If the rider didn't know the horse was lively and was unaware of any potential behavioural problems, then the rider didn't contribute to the negligence.

Secondly, check the insurance very carefully - some insurance policies will have a clause about other riders and you may find that insurance cover is not offered for horses under the age of 7 (this is true for horses in a riding school).

Also depends on what the rider was riding for - was it to school the horse, exercise it or what?  And did the rider accept payment for riding the horse?  Was the rider insured for riding other people's horses. 

I think your friend needs to seek proper legal advice - are they a member of BHS - their legal helpline can help you.


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## birchave0 (26 November 2010)

the simple answer is yes, a friend of mine is currently being sued after another friend rode a pony at a local show and fell off in the warm up, the pony did nothing wrong, she just fell off after a small jump.
Now suing and asking for over 30k in damages and lost earnings.

The sad thing is she also told a few porkies to her solicitor about the pony and the owner which were untrue, I doubt it will end up in court as my friend has witnesses and the other girl has none to back her story up.
It's a sad world we live in now........


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## kirstie (26 November 2010)

CuriousYellow said:



			Why should you be able to, frankly? 
You make the choice whether to put your foot in the stirrup or not, unless someone had your arm up your back

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I used to think this too. To be fair, I may as well have had my arm held against my back. I didnt want to get on, I thought it was all to soon and I voiced my concerns. I was ignored and hassled to get on with it as quickly as possible.

I was right, I now have a broken back because I did what I was asked. I suppose it's all my fault. I wasn't doing it for fun, it was my job. I wasn't scared that I was going to fall off, I thought the horse was too young at not yet mature enough. I could go on and on but there is no point.

I wouldn't want compensation, just loss of earnings. To not have to constanty worry about money and not be able to do anything about it because I can't physically work!


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## Maizy (26 November 2010)

kirstie said:



			So you are saying that if you had a really nasty injury, lost your job, spent ages in hospital, couldn't afford to keep your horse anymore, let alone yourself you wouldn't want to sue for loss of earnings?
		
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CuriousYellow said:



			Why should you be able to, frankly? 
You make the choice whether to put your foot in the stirrup or not, unless someone had your arm up your back

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Personally, if this had happened to me,  ie working with horses, I would have hoped the people I worked for either covered my loss of earnings whilst recovering, or have some insurance in place to cover this.  Kirstie, have you contacted the http://www.injuredjockeys.co.uk/, apparently they help people who work with horses not just racehorses.


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## kirstie (26 November 2010)

Maizy said:



			Personally, if this had happened to me,  ie working with horses, I would have hoped the people I worked for either covered my loss of earnings whilst recovering, or have some insurance in place to cover this.  Kirstie, have you contacted the http://www.injuredjockeys.co.uk/, apparently they help people who work with horses not just racehorses.
		
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Thank you, no I haven't but I will. No, they didn't have me covered for anything like that. I thought I had personal accident cover on my own insurance but stupidly didn't read the small print that said I wasn't covered if recieving a wage.

I understand that all circumstances are different and I hate the thought of the 'suing/ compensation' culture. But surely you have insurance so that if someone really does hurt themselves they can sue?


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## Rana (26 November 2010)

Just to add, that the BHS insurance isn't all it's cracked up to be.  I'm sure their 3rd party insurance is great, but they also offer personal accident insurance, which is part of the reason we became members (we being me and OH).

OH fell off a horse he rides (not ours, a friends).  Horse is known to be sharp, OH (in my opinion) took a risk and rode in an area where the horse is known to buck and P off.  OH has fallen off him several times doing exactly the same thing   Men!  Anyway, he came off, landed badly and broke his arm.  Not a serious injury by any means (he would argue!), but he can't drive....  He can't drive, he can't work (he's a mobile engineer), he gets no sick pay (statutory only).

So I tell him to claim on the BHS accident insurance.  However, it's only really geared up for permanent disability, loss of limb etc.  Not these minor, but time consuming to heal, injuries.  He didn't pursue it in the end, the payout would have been less than £200.

I'm seriously considering banning him from riding 

Anyway, just wanted to add that in case anyone else was relying on their BHS accident insurance in the event of a broken limb.  And if anyone has any recommendations for personal accident insurance which covers things like this, I'd be very grateful....


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## Rollin (26 November 2010)

Weezy said:



			Sadly it is true   A girl at my yard had someone come to view her horse - the horse is 20+ and a schoolmistress.  As the woman was mounting she kicked the horse on the rump, the horse moved sideways, not in a dramatic fashion, but she moved.  The woman sat BEHIND the saddle and the horse did a couple of tiny bucks and said woman fell off.  After saying, at the scene and awaiting the ambulance that it was just an accident and she was cool with it, she has proceeded to sue my friend.  Luckily her insurers, NFU, are dealing with it and they have said that they prob won't contest it and just simply pay out!!!!
		
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When my husband ran a manufacturing business he always weighed the cost of paying up against defending and facing a hefty legal bill!!


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## jodie3 (26 November 2010)

What an interesting thread, and having suffered back injuries falling off my own (stupidly uninsured youngster) and ending up really struggling to survive on SSP I have huge sympathy for anyone else broken.

You can get accident only insurance cover and you get a certain amount for every day you are in hospital and for things like fractures but not sure if you could claim on that if you had standard horse and rider insurance as well?


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## noblesteed (26 November 2010)

How bloody ridiculous!!!! You get on a horse using your own free will, therefore you accept it may result in injury to yourself!!!! That's the whole point of it being a 'risk sport'! I wouldn't dream of suing someone if I fell off their horse. 
I wouldn't be able to sue someone if I had was driving their car and injured myself in an accident caused by my incompetence as a driver! Why are horses any different?

Crumbs, better not let anyone else ride my little monkey!!!


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## Twizzel (26 November 2010)

kirstie said:



			So you are saying that if you had a really nasty injury, lost your job, spent ages in hospital, couldn't afford to keep your horse anymore, let alone yourself you wouldn't want to sue for loss of earnings?
		
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No I wouldn't. If the horse belonged to me I wouldn't be able to sue anybody so why should I sue the owners just because it's their horse? You get on a horse and accept that it's a risk sport and accidents happen. I have rider insurance which covers me against injury so if I was unable to work I would claim off that, not sue the owners.


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## kirstie (26 November 2010)

noblesteed said:



			How bloody ridiculous!!!! You get on a horse using your own free will, therefore you accept it may result in injury to yourself!!!! That's the whole point of it being a 'risk sport'! I wouldn't dream of suing someone if I fell off their horse. 
I wouldn't be able to sue someone if I had was driving their car and injured myself in an accident caused by my incompetence as a driver! Why are horses any different?

Crumbs, better not let anyone else ride my little monkey!!!
		
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I hope you never have a nasty, painful and debilitating accident where you end up losing your job, unable to carry on with your career or work for a lenghty period of time and survive on £80 a week!

It's not bloody ridiculous, it's a bloody nightmare!!!!


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## Jim Moriarty (26 November 2010)

Sadly, it's becoming common place for some folk to turn to law to assuage their bruised pride when it'd be better for all concerned (except the lawyers) to brush oneself down and laugh it off.


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## kirstie (26 November 2010)

Twizzel said:



			No I wouldn't. If the horse belonged to me I wouldn't be able to sue anybody so why should I sue the owners just because it's their horse? You get on a horse and accept that it's a risk sport and accidents happen. I have rider insurance which covers me against injury so if I was unable to work I would claim off that, not sue the owners.
		
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If I was riding my own horse, my insurance would have covered me. I'll admit I was stupid and didn't read the small print, I thought I was covered.

I most likely won't sue, I couldn't deal with the stress or bad feeling. I'm not a nasty person, I was told I was covered by their insurance, turns out I wasn't. I'm struggling financially and panicking that I am really going to find it difficult to find a job when I am well enough to work that will understand and be able to accomodate my needs for rehab and physio etc.

Before my accident I would have had the same opinion as you but when it actually happens your views can change a bit!


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## Hippona (26 November 2010)

kirstie said:



			If I was riding my own horse, my insurance would have covered me. I'll admit I was stupid and didn't read the small print, I thought I was covered.

I most likely won't sue, I couldn't deal with the stress or bad feeling. I'm not a nasty person, I was told I was covered by their insurance, turns out I wasn't. I'm struggling financially and panicking that I am really going to find it difficult to find a job when I am well enough to work that will understand and be able to accomodate my needs for rehab and physio etc.

Before my accident I would have had the same opinion as you but when it actually happens your views can change a bit!
		
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Were you employed to ride this horse?

If so, surely your employer has a duty to make sure you are 'safe' at work and you should be covered by employers liability? Same as if I tripped at work and fell down the stairs or something?

Thats terrible if you are fiancially struggling due to a work-related incident.


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## kirstie (26 November 2010)

CuriousYellow said:



			Were you employed to ride this horse?

If so, surely your employer has a duty to make sure you are 'safe' at work and you should be covered by employers liability? Same as if I tripped at work and fell down the stairs or something?

Thats terrible if you are fiancially struggling due to a work-related incident.
		
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Hi, yes I had the accident at work. I have been left truly in the ****! TBH I haven't even looked into it too much. The only information I gleaned was that horses are unpredictable and you can't cover for that. Fair enough.

I just find it frustrating that people are so quick to judge and condem people for suing when maybe they have to.


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## Maizy (26 November 2010)

I think there is a big difference between doing this for a living and riding a horse for fun.

Employers have a duty of care and therefore IMO should ensure they either have cover in place or insist on the rider/grooms having a policy in place (and cover the cost of this via salary) in order to make a claim in the event of an injury.

Surviving on SSP is almost impossible.  It's certainly life changing if you are a paid groom/rider and can no longer look after/ provide for yourself and horse.  Savings on a grooms salary are pretty hard to do. 

I don't think it's right that everyone sues everyone else, but each case has it's own merits and these should be considered.  I think we have gone slightly off track from the OP's scenario.  

If your horse had to have 4 months re hab livery and your insurance covered for it I don't think many people would not claim, I see no difference in riders claiming to cover basic earnings and enabling them to carry on life as normally as possible.   The difference being is that everyone should either be provided the cover (if they work with horses and are employed) or take out their own policy either as a freelance rider or a pleasure rider.

JM - It's very hard to brush off ones' broken bones!


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## Weezy (26 November 2010)

kirstie - I am very, very against the suing culture, however, you really should sue.  The reason I say that is that your employer should have the correct insurance in place.  If they do, then you should be covered.  If they don't then it will be a sharp lesson for them.

In your case, forget about hard or bad feelings, you need financial help and you really do need to explore every avenue to see what is available to you.  Your accident was not of your own making, you were asked to do something, you voiced your concerns that it was too risky, you were made to do it, you were injured....liability has to land firmly in the lap of your employer on this case.


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## Hippona (26 November 2010)

What Weezy said.....

I don't agree with the suing culture either, but this is work-related.....it's not on.

I would speak to CAB or get some free advice from someone legal....


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## WoopsiiD (26 November 2010)

Ditto Weezy.
Your employer has a legal responsibility to ensure they have done everything to keep you safe. They clearly didn't.

Even if you don't win, they should have a nasty shock and it may well stop another getting hurt.


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## kirstie (26 November 2010)

Thank you weezy. I probably won't sue, it's really not the sort of thing I want to do. 

I don't think the accident was my fault however, I did my best to make it as safe as possible for myself. But these things happen.

I just don't think it is as simple as "well you get on a horse, thats the risk you take."


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## Hippona (26 November 2010)

kirstie said:



			I just don't think it is as simple as "well you get on a horse, thats the risk you take."
		
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I think it is as simple as that when its a hobby - then its a matter of personal choice. But this is your job- its totally different.


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## PapaFrita (26 November 2010)

kirstie said:



			Hi, yes I had the accident at work. I have been left truly in the ****! TBH I haven't even looked into it too much. The only information I gleaned was that horses are unpredictable and you can't cover for that. Fair enough.

I just find it frustrating that people are so quick to judge and condem people for suing when maybe they have to.
		
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Kirstie, I'm with Weezy and the others and think that you should definitely sue.


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## martlin (26 November 2010)

PapaFrita said:



			Kirstie, I'm with Weezy and the others and think that you should definitely sue.
		
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And me, your employer should have Employers Liability insurance in place or, if it's a private yard and you were employed as a groom, you should be covered as their domestic staff under home insurance. Either way, I think you need to bring in a claim.


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## Fellewell (26 November 2010)

Kirstie, would it be worth contacting the NASS (formerly Stable Lads Association). They might be able to give you some advice. It really is grossly unfair that kids are expected to ride anything for minimum wage.


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## kirstie (26 November 2010)

Thank you guys for your comments, you have definately given me some food for thought.

My OH agrees with you all, thinks I should sue for loss of earnings. £80 does not go very far at all when you own a horse!

I will have a think about it and maybe seek some legal advice. Even a little bit extra would go a long way.


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## kirstie (26 November 2010)

Fellewell said:



			Kirstie, would it be worth contacting the NASS (formerly Stable Lads Association). They might be able to give you some advice. It really is grossly unfair that kids are expected to ride anything for minimum wage.
		
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Thanks, I will look in to it. Just to add though, I'm not a kid and I wasn't on the minimum wage!!


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## ladyt25 (26 November 2010)

People can sue for this yes BUT whether they are successful will depend on the circumstances. In the example given the horse insurance are quite likely to turn down the claim if the person who was injured was a friend/family of the insured as under most insurances they would be considered as being in custody and control of the horse at the time and therefore would essentially be treated as the owner of the horse (ie the insured). You cannot claim under your liability section under your own policy so would not be able to claim under that.

However, if the policy covering the horse had personal accident cover included then it is likely the other person who rode the horse could claim under that section of the policy as, like the liability section this generally extends to cover the policyholder or anyone given permission by the policyholder to ride or be in control of the insured horse.

Thankfully many of these claims that go to court do get thrown out but it depends on the judge at the time. There was case when a lady tried to sue the owner of a riding establishment as she fell off during a xc lesson as she jumped a fence and hit an overhanging branch which caused her to fall off. The judge threw it out stating that the claimant had been knowingly taking part in a dangerous activity and basically it was part and parcel of horseriding (or words to that effect).

IF you intend to ride other people's horses you are much better off ensuring you have adequate personal accident cover to be honest so you know you have cover should the worse happen. That is the same with driving (as someone mentioned that), if you are inuured in a car crash, even if you were at fault, if you had the PA extension to your cover you could claim for injuries/loss of earning etc.

As far as the person who fell off their employees horse - your employee should have employers liability insurance and you should be able to make a claim under that. It is not suing as such, it is claiming under a section of a policy for which your employer should have you covered for. That is their responsibility as an employer and hence why you should always ensure your employer has you covered! If you are injured whilst doing your job then you are entitled to claim for it.

Kirstie - just realised that was you. If you have been injured when at work  and it has affected you either temporarily or permanently then CLAIM! That is what EL cover is for. Christ we have loads of claims notified to us for even minor injuries so you would not be doing anything out of the ordinary and you are entitled.

Personally I wouldn't claim against someone if i got on a horse of my own free will. If I wasn't sure about the horse or my capabilities as a rider then i wouldn't get on, end of.


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## spotty_pony (26 November 2010)

I wouldn't think this would be possible seeing as horses are unpredictable and if you think about it, every time you ride any horse you are taking a risk. Also, she should have been expecting this risk to be higher as she was riding a 4 year old which was known for being a bit of a handful.


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## JanetGeorge (26 November 2010)

kirstie said:



			What about if you had an injury at work backing a young horse you didn't think was ready but you felt pressured into doing? Not forced, but a lot of pressure. 
The result being a very nasty fall and broken back.

Could you sue for that?
		
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Absolutely - although if you didn't make your feelings absolutely clear about the young horse not being ready, any award MIGHT be reduced by - say - 20% due to your 'contributory negligence'.  But that would be a claim on your employer's "Employer Liability" insurance!  (And for anyone who works with horses, make DAMN sure your employer has this.  The certificate should be displayed in tack room, or office, or another public place where every employee can see it!!)


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## Mahoganybay (26 November 2010)

Sorry to hijak the initial OP but i am concerned about Kirstie's post.

Where i work (not horse related) accidents that happen at work are report to the Health & Safety Executive as a RIDDOR:

http://www.hse.gov.uk/riddor/

I would be giving them a ring and see where you stand.


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## eventer28 (26 November 2010)

If she was invited to ride the horse by an experienced owner and not told that the horse could be tricky by a negligent owner then yes. I know a novice rider who was asked to ride a 3yo by a VERY experienced livery yard owner (who was scared to ride the horse herself and therefore using the novice as a crash test dummy), novice rider was bucked off, sustained a serious injury. Rider very successfully sued the owner and IMO deserved every penny of his compensation.


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## kirstie (26 November 2010)

I am going to look into it. I made my feelings clear.

Shortly after I got home from hospital my boss phoned me and told me he had spoken to his insurance company and that a claim could not be made for me. 

I don't know what to do really! I'm in a bit of a crappy situation and I don't want to make it worse. I would describe myself as a little bit emotionally vunerable at the moment!


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## Zirach (26 November 2010)

A friend of mine recently replied to an advert for an very experienced rider seeking horse to ride and explained to the girl (well she was 18) that he was not in any way a novice ride, was spooky and also had not been ridden for a while.

The girl said she was very experienced, used to riding thoroughbreds which 'never have all four feet on the ground at any one time) and that this would not be a problem and she would 'enjoy the challenge'.

She came to try him, my friend lunged him first in front of the girl (as he had not been ridden for a couple of weeks) and then rode him. He was naughty on the lunge but was ok when my friend rode him.

The girl got on and rode him nicely in walk and trot, asked him to canter and to cut a long story short he had her off, ambulance called etc. She had apprently badly bruised her back.

My friend had BHS insurance and they are dealing with the claim but they have also involved her Household Insurers to get them to pay half of the claim if it comes to fruition. My friend had taken out the BHS insurance so any relevant claims could be dealt with under this but it will still go to her Household insurers to contribute and affect her premium. Seems a bit pointless her having the BHS insurance!

Anyway, even though the girl admitted it was her fault and she should not have cantered him, she is still likely to get a pay out - even though my friend had advised he had been known to buck, rear on occasion and was not a novice ride. In my opinion she shouldnt really have let anyone get on the horse in the first place, but as the girl said she was so experienced and my friend needed the help.....lesson learnt........

Please be mindful of this when letting anyone ride your horse, every one is always friends until an incident happens and when money is concerned.....


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## eventer28 (26 November 2010)

She would say that a claim could not be made, the insurance company would have told her to say that. I would get advice from a legal expert.


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## Natch (26 November 2010)

Think about it from the rider's point of view. They have no income for X weeks/months. They will need to find the money to live somewhere. It would be perfectly logical for them to claim from either their own injury insurance or that of the horse owner's. If the accident was caused by the horse i'd probably do the same to be honest - saves the rider's insurance premiums from going up.

I don't see the fuss...?


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## DragonSlayer (26 November 2010)

It's why I never let anyone ride my horse!


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## Sparkles (26 November 2010)

I don't doubt you could in todays world.

I would however be extremely miffed [for a nicer word] if someone had the cheek to try and sue me for them falling off my horse, when I'd be letting them kindly be able to ride him in the first place!

Also another reason why no-one uninsured gets on my horse  Likewise for me also, I have my rider insurance.


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## Luci07 (26 November 2010)

Going back to Kirsty - I don't believe your boss and would follow the advice on the board as to getting compensation. Re read Janet Georges posts again for clarification.

As to having loss of earnings cover - great idea, but its HORRENDOUSLY expensive. My brother wanted me to do this, and logically I should -but the bill was too much. I have covered myself through work anyway now.

And guys - don't assume your own personal policy will automatically allow another rider to benefit from it if they ride your horse with your permission. As I said previously, my liabililty insurance from NFU covers me if either of my horses hurts or damages anyone, but when asked, they were at pains to stress that it does NOT cover anyone riding them with my permissions. So check your policy!


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## JanetGeorge (26 November 2010)

Zirach said:



			My friend had BHS insurance and they are dealing with the claim but they have also involved her Household Insurers to get them to pay half of the claim if it comes to fruition. My friend had taken out the BHS insurance so any relevant claims could be dealt with under this but it will still go to her Household insurers to contribute and affect her premium. Seems a bit pointless her having the BHS insurance!
		
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You don't 'take out' BHS insurance - you JOIN the BHS and the insurance that is included for members is ONE of the benefits.  BUT - BHS insurance (and BD, BE, BRC etc etc etc insurance) is insurance 'of last resort'!  What that means is you are covered by the BHS insurance if you have NO other cover.  IF you have other cover that you can claim on - household, horse policy that includes PL etc - then the BHS insurers will work with those other insurers and 'share' the claim.  This helps keep costs down for everyone.


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## JanetGeorge (26 November 2010)

kirstie said:



			Shortly after I got home from hospital my boss phoned me and told me he had spoken to his insurance company and that a claim could not be made for me.
		
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Your boss is a liar - OR he doesn't HAVE Employer Liability Insurance (in which case he's just a common old law-breaker!)  IF he only has Public Liability insurance, then he is correct that THAT insurance won't cover HIM for any claim you make.

But let's get this straight!  It is not his insurance company you have to persuade to handle your claim - that's HIS problem.  YOUR claim is against HIM - and if he doesn't have the right insurance - and you win your claim - he could lose his house, his business, and ALL his assets (if necessary) to settle your claim.  It is a legal requirement that employers carry a MINIMUM of £5 million of insurance - although if they put their employees in high risk situations (like backing horses - or looking after lions!) then they'd be smart to have £10 million or more.

The Health & Safety Executive has responsibility for enforcing the LAW about employer liability insurance.  They can fine employers up to £2,500 per DAY for every day that the employer is uninsured.  They can also fine the employer £1,000 for failing to display their Certificate of Insurance!

There ARE some exemptions for Employer Liability - if the employer ONLY employs close members of his family in a family business - or ONLY employs freelance staff.  But if you're receiving wages or salary .... he's up the proverbial creek without a paddle!!

That's why he is an IDIOT (as well as a possible law-breaker!)


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## dibbin (26 November 2010)

Not knowing all the facts, I'd say probably not (although my degree is in Scots Law rather than English!) Liability is generally based on causation and reasonable foreseeability. IF she knew the horse was a bit of a handful before she got on it, then she probably wouldn't be able to sue as she was aware of the risk and chose to take it anyway. If, however (as JanetGeorge said), the horse's temperant was in some way misrepresented to her, then she might have a case.


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## Orangehorse (26 November 2010)

I am surprised that the NFU said they would pay out.  I was talking to my NFU lady who said that they fought and won a claim brought by someone on foot holding a gate for the field out hunting and one kicked out and caught him in the chest.  He was quite seriously injured but lost his claim.

However, I am not sure if this was before or after that notorious court judgement.  I thought there were negotitiations going on about this, but I supose the General Election got in the way and it has all been forgotten.


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## steph91 (26 November 2010)

Once had a girl tried to sue us, after falling off one of our youngsters and hurt her shoulder. She was our groom at the time (1 strike silly, trying to sue your boss) My dad was paying her sick wages already (2nd strike silly, she would not of gotten compensation) Dad stopped paying sick wages as she was suing him (no income for her) she then lost her job (she left of her own accord) as my dad carried the grudge that she had tried to sue him, when he was paying her sick leave anyway.


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## night_mare (27 November 2010)

I would say that if someone rides someone else's horse they do so at their own risk unless there was some type of negligence on the part of the horse's owner.

If the horse is known to be dangerous and the owner forgot to mention this, it might be argued this was negligence on the part of the owner.

However, the rider would have to prove that the horse was dangerous and the owner knew this, and didn't mention it.  If the horse had thrown every rider every time they got on in the last 6 months and the owner didn't mention this or even told the rider the horse was safe then the rider they might have a case.  If the horse throws an occasional buck but hasn't thrown every rider off then I think the rider would have a hard time suing.


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## PeterNatt (27 November 2010)

Yes she can sue and the fact that she was 'invited to ride the horse' has implications.

The horses owner should contact her insurers immediately and if she is a Gold Member of the BHS she will be able to discuss this with a solicitor.

All very unfortunate and demonstrates how important it is to have third party public liability insurance on each and every horse one owns.  The legal case mentioned in the posts above demonstrated that Third Party Public liability insurance cover to £10,000,000 is required so always check that you are getting that level of cover.


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## madmax1 (27 November 2010)

Luci07 said:



			..........And guys - don't assume your own personal policy will automatically allow another rider to benefit from it if they ride your horse with your permission. As I said previously, my liabililty insurance from NFU covers me if either of my horses hurts or damages anyone, but when asked, they were at pains to stress that it does NOT cover anyone riding them with my permissions. So check your policy!
		
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I would ask them to check that again...or do you get it cheaper for having rider only policy, mine covers anyone I give permission to ride my horses. 

I have NFU insurance, have done for 12 years, I have claimed under both vets fees AND Public Liability (both seperate occasions).

When I claimed for PL a friend WAS riding my horse, in fact she had my horse as a share with me, as this was my second horse. NFU took all the details of the rider and the driver of the car who my horse happened to 'nudge' whilst passing.

NFU paid out with NO questions, I only found out they paid up as I rang to find out or I would not have Known.

Could not fault them, one phone call, no stress, case settled, and I was not even the rider.


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## dieseldog (27 November 2010)

JanetGeorge said:



			You don't 'take out' BHS insurance - you JOIN the BHS and the insurance that is included for members is ONE of the benefits.  BUT - BHS insurance (and BD, BE, BRC etc etc etc insurance) is insurance 'of last resort'!  What that means is you are covered by the BHS insurance if you have NO other cover.  IF you have other cover that you can claim on - household, horse policy that includes PL etc - then the BHS insurers will work with those other insurers and 'share' the claim.  This helps keep costs down for everyone.
		
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That is not how it is being sold and the BHS probably should be done by advertising standards.  It is sold as your one stop shop for any horse related incident.  I think I will now have to re assess my membership to the BHS as I am actually disgusted to read this.


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## JanetGeorge (28 November 2010)

dieseldog said:



			That is not how it is being sold and the BHS probably should be done by advertising standards.  It is sold as your one stop shop for any horse related incident.  I think I will now have to re assess my membership to the BHS as I am actually disgusted to read this.
		
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Not how it reads to me.  I was involved when the BHS changed insurers back in ... about 1998/1999 it must have been.  It certainly wasn't THEN.  So I went back and read the BHS site and membership benefits.  No mention of it being a one stop shop or anything like.  The facts given in the 'benefits' summary are completely accurate and it asks you to read the 'key terms' of the insurance.  The key terms are given very clearly - and it is very good cover for the cost - even if you thought your WHOLE BHS membership sub was paying for insurance.  It's not, of course - you get the magazine, the Handbook, a free legal helpline, a free tax and Vat helpline, discounts at the bookshop, etc. etc. etc.  To buy 'stand alone' insurance at the levels of cover provided would cost WELL over £150.

Any and every insurance policy has its own terms and conditions - NO insurance policy is a one stop shop!!

My various liability policies (for a small stud and training yard) cost me about £2,200 a year - they have terms and conditions too - and exclusions!!


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## _MizElz_ (28 November 2010)

QR

Blimey - this thread is a bit scary!!! My instructor (also a very good friend) took a bad fall from Ellie one day during a grid work session - she did nothing wrong except peck on landing, and he landed on his feet and snapped both his leg bones  He was out of the saddle for about 8/9 months due to numerous operations, and had to pass his HOYS ride over to another pro rider  Luckily for us, he never even mentioned the possibility of suing - and it didnt even cross our minds. We're just lucky, I guess - especially in this day and age - that he's such a nice, reasonable and rational guy!!!


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## JanetGeorge (28 November 2010)

_MizElz_ said:



			QR

 Luckily for us, he never even mentioned the possibility of suing - and it didnt even cross our minds. We're just lucky, I guess - especially in this day and age - that he's such a nice, reasonable and rational guy!!!
		
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Luck might not have had anything to do with it!  If he's a SENSIBLE professional, he would have had his own personal accident insurance, probably including loss of earnings.  Being your instructor, there would have been no question of him claiming you misled him about the horse's ability, he chose to ride it knowing it might be a clumsy sod  (or make a simple mistake) and he does this for a living (presumably.)  Unless he could prove negligence he would have limited chance of success.

Income replacement insurance is expensive - but ANYONE who freelances would be silly not to have it.  There are limited 'benefits' for the self-employed when they can't work - and freelancers should set their charges to take the cost of such insurance into account.


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## perfect11s (28 November 2010)

Its high time all this sueing nonsense  was stopped and the law changed to how it is now in the USA.  You sign a disclamer if you are doing something dangerous to say YOU understand the risks and have your own insurance...


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## soulfull (28 November 2010)

My thoughts are similar to most on this.  Generally if you get on a horse it is your responsibility!   I would not dream of suing someone who had let me ride their horse.  Also at one time I used to help others out and get on nappy horses or buckers.  I don't do it anymore too old and frail   But wouldn't dream of suing them if I came off, even if they had not told me all the facts (often the case)

Next thing we know they will be suing for psychological damage if a horse scares them

However I once went looking for a horse for a very nervous novice and was very clear about this to potential vendors.  One horse bolted, so badly it nearly jumped out of the field we were in,  I had to bail out as I could see if it did go over the fence there was a huge drain cover where it would land.  I wasn't risking landing on that!   Horse did stop but so late I would have been catapulted over its head anyway.   Typically owner said 'oh its never done that before'
Next one was for loan,  as soon as I took it in the school it reared full up with me and I got off by slipping off the side.

Turns out both of these people knew the horses had problems YET still would let my nervous very novicy friend take them.  They ARE the sort of people that should be sued!!  Of course the thought didn't even enter my head.  They probably  were not insured anyway lol

Kirstie I too think you should look at claiming off employers insurance.  Don't think of it as suing just claiming like you would on your car insurance if someone stole your car as I think it is totally different than riding someone's horse for the pleasure of it.
If you worked in a factory and a faulty piece of equipment had been the cause of your injury you wouldn't even think about it you would just do it!!

Hope it all gets sorted for all concerned


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## dieseldog (28 November 2010)

JanetGeorge said:



			Not how it reads to me.  I was involved when the BHS changed insurers back in ... about 1998/1999 it must have been.  It certainly wasn't THEN.  So I went back and read the BHS site and membership benefits.  No mention of it being a one stop shop or anything like.  The facts given in the 'benefits' summary are completely accurate and it asks you to read the 'key terms' of the insurance.  The key terms are given very clearly - and it is very good cover for the cost - even if you thought your WHOLE BHS membership sub was paying for insurance.  It's not, of course - you get the magazine, the Handbook, a free legal helpline, a free tax and Vat helpline, discounts at the bookshop, etc. etc. etc.  To buy 'stand alone' insurance at the levels of cover provided would cost WELL over £150.

Any and every insurance policy has its own terms and conditions - NO insurance policy is a one stop shop!!

My various liability policies (for a small stud and training yard) cost me about £2,200 a year - they have terms and conditions too - and exclusions!!
		
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You are a buiness and it costs you that much.  When we had a livery yard our insurance was £3k a year - that is what it costs.

I phoned the BHS up and they told me that I have £10m cover for any horse related incident anywhere in the world with no excess.  Why are they lying to people on the phone?  I also spoke to them in person at Badminton - and they still said the same thing.  Do I even need this insurance if they are going to make me claim off my house insurance anyway?  I don't want to use the PL insurance I have with the BS as it has a £1k excess, that is why I joined the BHS - its why lots of people join the BHS.  This is serious misrepresentation which could have terrible consequences for someone.


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## MrsMozart (28 November 2010)

kirstie said:



			I am going to look into it. I made my feelings clear.

Shortly after I got home from hospital my boss phoned me and told me he had spoken to his insurance company and that a claim could not be made for me. 

I don't know what to do really! I'm in a bit of a crappy situation and I don't want to make it worse. I would describe myself as a little bit emotionally vunerable at the moment!
		
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Oh hunny. I, and others, know this feeling only too well. Hugs.

I have only managed to hold onto my current client due to their understanding of my need to work from home, etc., though now the brace is off they expect me in every day. It's killing me off and making the recovery so much longer, etc., but needs must and all that stuff. 

'Needs must' - those are the words you need to hold onto. 

The employer has insurance to cover this. From what you have written, you will not be going back there (forgive me if I've misunderstood that part), so will not be facing any pee'd off employers, but whilst it may affect their future premiums did they show this level of concern for you that you are showing for them? If they had you would not be in this situation.

Mine was my own stupid fault (do not jump when ill!!!). Nobody made me get on. 

Yours is different. You did what your boss told you to do, despite your pointing out that it wasn't safe. I guess that a point blank refusal on your behalf would have seen the end of your employment, so between a rock and a hard place.


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## MrsMozart (28 November 2010)

Sorry, slightly off tangent, but just seen what people are paying for studs/training/teaching/etc. and I think it's quite reasonable...

As a consultant (business type), I pay almost £1k per year in Professional Indemnity Insurance and Public Liability Insurance. No premises as such (an office at home, but I don't have clients visit). I handle large deals (up to £500m), but because I am not an employee of the client's company, I only advise, I do not make the final decisions without someone elses say so.


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## Cinnamontoast (28 November 2010)

If you share, for example, aren't you supposed to get your own insurance for this very reason? My insurance covers other riders who have permission to ride my horse so I suppose they could sue me: dunno.


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## thinlizzy (28 November 2010)

i havent read all the posts too many but if this horse was a known handful and rider got on and fell off her own fault and we can all agree you fall off horses even the saintest of horses i wouldnt sue anyone whos horse i fell off who i knew well and would be at my own risk i would however, never up my riding ability to ride a horse ,i have a 4yo i would never ride someone elses 4yo though !
Did know a case of a lady who was a soliciter years ago about ten years rode a dealers horse and it spooked and she fell off broke her arm she sued and got 3k dont know ins and outs though .If i was buying/viewing a quiet horse i would want to see rode first and possible a friend/relative/instructer of my own before i would asses safe for me to ride ,but that woyuld be my choice to ride .If i was in doubts id walk away.If owner wouldnt ride, id walk away .
I SUPPOSE IF YOU WORK IN A DEALERS/BREAKERS/COMPETITION YARD sorry about caps its part and parcel of job i think sorryx


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## PeterNatt (28 November 2010)

This whole issue is a total nightmare as what it means is that one has to ensure that anyone riding ones horse has got sufficient insurance cover so that in the event of a mishap they are covered.

What Janet George stated was very sensible.  People who ride other peoples horses as part of their work insurance should of course have income replacement insurance so that in the event of an accident they are covered.

I would aslo suggest that before allowing anyone else to ride your horse make sure that they have their own insurance policies which cover them to a sufficient level and I would suggest that when selling a horse and allowing someone to ride it then again make sure that the person riding it has got insurance cover in the event of an accident.


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## Hal1k1 (28 November 2010)

As an owner I believe I am liable for any misdemeanors my horse performs so I rarely let anyone else ride him and I have always had insurance to cover both of us.

But if some idiot thinks they can just get on him without my permission I hope he does react and dump them and I would be very happy to go to court and explain that my horse was severely traumatised and he doesn't speak english.  Horses are known to be unpredictable and lastly I would ask the judge if someone stole his car and drove it up and down his rode and crashed it does that make him (the judge ) liable just because he is the owner? 

If you own a horse and if you agree to let someone else ride it you have a duty to be honest and tell about it's quirks and dislikes but likewise a rider should be honest about their capabilities and if they are not and have a fall it is their own fault.


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## JanetGeorge (28 November 2010)

dieseldog said:



			I phoned the BHS up and they told me that I have £10m cover for any horse related incident anywhere in the world with no excess.  Why are they lying to people on the phone?  I also spoke to them in person at Badminton - and they still said the same thing.  Do I even need this insurance if they are going to make me claim off my house insurance anyway?  I don't want to use the PL insurance I have with the BS as it has a £1k excess, that is why I joined the BHS - its why lots of people join the BHS.  This is serious misrepresentation which could have terrible consequences for someone.
		
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You DO have £10 million cover anywhere in the world with no excess.  No-one has lied to you.  (And I should add I no longer work for the BHS - nor am I even a member anymore.)

Whatever insurance you have for ANYTHING there are always 'deals' done between different insurers who may share liability.  All that matters to YOU is that you are covered!  So if your Household Policy covers you for - say - up to £5 Million - but with an excess, the BHS insurance may pay your excess and do a deal with the other insurers to share the balance.  There is NO misrepresentation - and you get VERY good cover from the BHS insurance at minimum cost!


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## Orangehorse (28 November 2010)

We don't have any household insurance, so I am glad I am a member of the BHS.


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## Tabula Rasa (31 August 2013)

I have a query about this topic, it's a very interesting one at that!

A friend of mine has recently been injured by another woman's horse and has had to result in making a claim.
The friend does not own a rideable horse as she only owns a rising 2 filly. She was grooming and pampering her filly when a woman asked her to help bring her horses in. After being asked twice she went to help, on going with her to help she was told which of the two horses to bring in.
As she put the larger of the two in its stable (as instructed) the horse turned and barged out of the stable. Knocking my friend over and trampling her. She was taken to the accident ermergany department at the local hospital and suffered very bruised organs. She has 6 weeks off work (and did not qualify for sick pay) and because of her work contract and her hours given to someone else while she was off sick she had very little if no hours work and lived off pennies.
She is at the point where she will have to sell her filly as she can't afford to keep it. She had to leave accommodation as she couldn't pay 2 months rent. She owes many other bills(phone bill etc). All because of this accident.
Now for her to be able to keep her filly and pay off all this dept she has been advised to make a claim. 

Luckily she is starting a new job and moving her filly to another yard.
However there were no witnesses only the owner and my friend. 
The owner is not the type of person to have insurance either or pay any money out for legal fees.

So does anyone know what could happen? 
If losing her filly and being in so much dept wasn't at stake I don't think she would be going ahead with this. It is a last resort for her. 

Thanks for any info on this sort of thing.


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## bonny (31 August 2013)

It's a strange world sometimes....accidents happen and it sounds just that, in fact if you want to find fault I would blame your friend. She was leading the horse into it's stable and she let it barge back out....are we really wanting to live in a world where no one will help anyone else out ?


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## Tabula Rasa (31 August 2013)

I partly agree with you. However from what was told on both parts she did try to keep the horse back. 
She's not weak, small or inexperienced. But we all know how strong even the small ponies can be never mind 15h+ well built horses. 

It seems in this situation people are spilt. Some believe it to be the fault of my friend some the owner. Not to mention solicitors believe she has a very good case. But I know nothing about this whole situation. Law baffles me.


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## chocolategirl (31 August 2013)

Tabula Rasa said:



			I partly agree with you. However from what was told on both parts she did try to keep the horse back. 
She's not weak, small or inexperienced. But we all know how strong even the small ponies can be never mind 15h+ well built horses. 

It seems in this situation people are spilt. Some believe it to be the fault of my friend some the owner. Not to mention solicitors believe she has a very good case. But I know nothing about this whole situation. Law baffles me.
		
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To me it's black and white. If you aren't prepared to accept the dangers and risks that come with being around horses then stay as far away as possible!!! We all know that by nature they are flight animals and because of that are totally unpredictable.&#55357;&#56853;


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## Dry Rot (31 August 2013)

I don't think anyone has made the point that if you have someone come in VOLUNTARILY, without pay, to help with horses, by law, you need Employers Liability Insurance. At least, that is what I was advised and, yes, I do have it.

Second point, I am a bit shocked to read of posters on here who have been injured in horse related accidents but haven't then taken professional advice. At least discuss it with a "no win. no fee" solicitor over the telephone as there is no commitment, it's free, and you don't have to take their advice.

I'm reminded of the woman who hired a chain saw and then ran it through her foot. She sued the hire company -- and won! The court ruled that the hire firm should have given the woman instruction on the use of the saw. Crazy but true.

When checking out someone who wanted to purchase a pony from me, I found they ran a trekking business and had been taken to court. Basically, a rider had hired a horse and gone on one of their organised treks. She fell off and was injured. She successfully sued because the trek leader had got a little ahead and the rider's pony had speeded up to catch up and dislodged the rider.

Always insure, consult professionals (not newsgroups!), and leave it to the experts. You are not suing the individual but their insurance company, so leave emotion out of it.

It is really sad to read about the accidents and I hope you all get well soon. Those who haven't had an accident, please review your insurance!


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## Toby_Zaphod (31 August 2013)

Sunny08 said:



			As title says really. An individual was invited to ride another individuals 4 yr old sports horse. Nice horse but known to be a bit a of a handful.
		
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They can try but if what you say in this quote is true & the rider knew this then I doubt if they will be successful.


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## honetpot (31 August 2013)

Recently I looked into employers liability insurance, I am not a business I just needed some help with my ponies. If someone is not self employed you have to provide employers liability insurance and it is expensive, the lowest quote was £500 to cover someone 16 hours a week, some quotes were nearly £1000.
 If you have an accident at work  there should be an Accident book to write anything in and serious injuries are reported to the Health and Safety executive, if anyone is interested I can probably send then the links to the legislation. You employer should also do risk assesments for their insurance and they should have these available. Your employers insurance company will not let them admit liability but that does not mean you have a valid claim, so if you have been injured at work please make a claim that is what it is there for.
  I spent most of my early years riding other peoples ponies as my parents could not afford to buy one for me or could I afford lessons and I fell off a lot but was never injured. It would be a shame if people could never have that opportunity again for the fear of being sued. I would never get on a horse unless I seen it ridden by them and I would have to asses the risk myself, I would always think why do they want me to ride it? It seems the general thing that no one lets you ride a good horse they only have no time for the naughty ones. 
  I think in any insurance claim you have to prove negligence and if the owner was negligent in not providing the right information then perhaps the claimant could be successful. I have a pony that barges out of the stable, when I put him out on loan it is written into the contract that he will do this and I also show the potential loaners the circumstance in which he will do this so they can asses whether they can cope with this behaviour, but there is always a first time an animal will do anything and you can not prepare for that except by experience.


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## WelshD (31 August 2013)

TR i think your friend is pretty stuck. It doesnt sound like the owner will pay up if your friend took them to court anyway. If your friend lost the case she would end up in more debt, if she won it the amount of money awarded may end up on a payment plan, these can be as low as pence a week and at worst may never be paid - we are still waiting for an award from 2009 which is likely never to be paid

Your friend should be entitled to SSP surely

Without sounding like a total cow someone with a horse should be in the basic financial position of being able to cover the costs of a short period of time off work - this could easily have been your friend's filly that caused an accident.


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## Tabula Rasa (31 August 2013)

This accident was in January and she has been out of work since.
She did have savings that payed the bills and rent she has paid, as well as hay, straw and fees ect for her fillies winter months. 

She has insurance for her filly that covers her if her filly injured her.

It is taken on by a no win-no fee company. So even if she loses she pays nothing.
The way I see it is they wouldn't have taken on the claim if she didn't have a good case. 

As for SSP. She has been fighting for this since the accident and does not qualify :/ 
I don't know the ins and outs of it. I just know she definitely doesn't.


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## Bucks Fizz (31 August 2013)

Dry Rot said:



			I don't think anyone has made the point that if you have someone come in VOLUNTARILY, without pay, to help with horses, by law, you need Employers Liability Insurance. At least, that is what I was advised and, yes, I do have it.

Second point, I am a bit shocked to read of posters on here who have been injured in horse related accidents but haven't then taken professional advice. At least discuss it with a "no win. no fee" solicitor over the telephone as there is no commitment, it's free, and you don't have to take their advice.

I'm reminded of the woman who hired a chain saw and then ran it through her foot. She sued the hire company -- and won! The court ruled that the hire firm should have given the woman instruction on the use of the saw. Crazy but true.

When checking out someone who wanted to purchase a pony from me, I found they ran a trekking business and had been taken to court. Basically, a rider had hired a horse and gone on one of their organised treks. She fell off and was injured. She successfully sued because the trek leader had got a little ahead and the rider's pony had speeded up to catch up and dislodged the rider.

Always insure, consult professionals (not newsgroups!), and leave it to the experts. You are not suing the individual but their insurance company, so leave emotion out of it.

It is really sad to read about the accidents and I hope you all get well soon. Those who haven't had an accident, please review your insurance!
		
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Just because you CAN sue does not mean you should or that you would want to. Some of the examples above demonstrate just that!

The world is becoming a worse place because we are increasingly litigious. People are afraid to do things because of being sued. No one takes responsibility for their own actions.

I am not saying people should never bring claims but people should think long and hard about whether they feel it is right to do so.

You are absolutely 100% wrong to say that a claimant is suing the insurance company and not the individual. This is an increasingly common misconception and it is an attitude which encourages spurious claims.

When bringing a claim you also need to remember that, whilst the insurers may bear the financial responsibility (that is assuming there is suitable cover in place) the person being sued will not simply be left out of it and is likely to find the whole experience stressful and unpleasant no matter how good their insurers, solicitors and barrister are.

Cases involving animals in particular are complex and the Animals Act is a particularly tricky piece of legislation which can lead to judgments which are perceived as unfair. The high risk can mean that claims may be bought off rather than defended, but equally it can become a point of principle for an animal owner being sued and may be defended to trial in spite of the risks.


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## Bucks Fizz (31 August 2013)

Tabula Rasa said:



			It is taken on by a no win-no fee company. So even if she loses she pays nothing.
The way I see it is they wouldn't have taken on the claim if she didn't have a good case.
		
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Not necessarily. She has probably been referred to a solicitor by an accident management company. The solicitors will make their own assessment throughout the life of the claim as to whether it is likely to succeed. I doubt in the early stages they have enough information to consider likely prospects.


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## Echo Bravo (31 August 2013)

And this is why I don't let anyone else ride my horses, they say they are experienced most of the time you find they are not, they may know how to get on but very little else about the Aids or grooming and mucking out.


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## Goldenstar (31 August 2013)

Yes you I was badly injured trying a horse .
After the fall the seller made several statements that could have lead to a court deciding they where negligent .
Two separate barristers reviewed the case and said they would not have a leg to stand on so to speak ( in fact that was me that no leg to stand on)
On reflection I took the desision it was not the route I wanted to take.


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## Amy567 (1 September 2013)

Sorry, but this subject REALLY grinds my gears! Everyone know that horses are flight animals, horse riding is a RISK sport, they have their own brains and anyone that owns a horse knows that no matter how much you trust your horse, they are unpredictable animals! 

I went competing last night with my two horses, one goes crazy when the other is out of sight so can't just stay on the trailer or tied up, mum couldn't make it on time so I enlisted the help of two experienced friends (I would never ask a novice or non horsey person to handle any of my horses) I told them she gets stressed and may fidgit/stamp and whinny, they understood and took care. Reading this makes it sound like just asking friends to hold my horse for 30 minutes means I need employers liability insurance! I'm sorry, but I'm not spending £500 for my friend to hold my horse for 30 minutes once in a blue moon!

This suing culture is awful.


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## The wife (1 September 2013)

Have read this with interest and its a worrying state of affairs for the world we live in.  I was always under the impression that so long as the rider was informed of their own capabilities and the traits of the horse that as an owner one would be covered, as every day one takes a risk getting on their own horses and dealing with them.  Had a similar incident a fair few years back while selling a notorious bucker.  Prospective buyer was told many time pony could buck and to ensure her child could manage it.  Child fell off, broke her collar bone and we received a solicitors letter threatening to sue for damages.  Insurance company basically laughed it off and we were found not liable as we're completely honest about the pony.  

Anyhow, what is the world coming to?  It frightens me really, next time The husband annoys me, hell lets just sue him for moaning about me smelling of wee, the straw and mud in the kitchen and saddle soap stains in my hair.  No then, is that possible? Hmmmmm.


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## Booboos (1 September 2013)

There is a big difference between riding as part of your job and riding for fun. Professionals should have personal accident and loss of income insurance (all professionals who work around horses, including farriers, physios, etc) and anyone who employs others to work with horses should have employer's liability insurance. Claims are complicated by how the courts interpret the circumstances surrounding the duty of care and the possible negligence of all parties involved, but insurance should be a part of any business plan.

The legal situation with regards to private individuals is complicated as the courts have tended to come to different interpretations on different cases. A while ago some unknown persons openned a gate, letting loose a horse who eventually colided with a car and killed the driver. The owner of the horse was held strictly liable for the damage. On the other hand, recently a potential buyer described herself as very experienced and rode a horse declared to be difficult, and failed to win compensation for her injuries on the grounds that she knew the risk she was taking. It's an area that requires legal clarification and I don't think anyone knows how things will get decided unless they take the risk of going to court - which is why insurance companies prefer to settle.


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## Booboos (1 September 2013)

steph91 said:



			Once had a girl tried to sue us, after falling off one of our youngsters and hurt her shoulder. She was our groom at the time (1 strike silly, trying to sue your boss) My dad was paying her sick wages already (2nd strike silly, she would not of gotten compensation) Dad stopped paying sick wages as she was suing him (no income for her) she then lost her job (she left of her own accord) as my dad carried the grudge that she had tried to sue him, when he was paying her sick leave anyway.
		
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 Your dad did not do her a favour by paying her sick leave, she was legally entitled to it. You are lucky she did not sue your dad for constructive dismissal, it sounds like he behaved very unprofessionally 'carrying a grudge' against his employee!


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## Goldenstar (1 September 2013)

Amy567 said:



			Sorry, but this subject REALLY grinds my gears! Everyone know that horses are flight animals, horse riding is a RISK sport, they have their own brains and anyone that owns a horse knows that no matter how much you trust your horse, they are unpredictable animals! 

I went competing last night with my two horses, one goes crazy when the other is out of sight so can't just stay on the trailer or tied up, mum couldn't make it on tiYme so I enlisted the help of two experienced friends (I would never ask a novice or non horsey person to handle any of my horses) I told them she gets stressed and may fidgit/stamp and whinny, they understood and took care. Reading this makes it sound like just asking friends to hold my horse for 30 minutes means I need employers liability insurance! I'm sorry, but I'm not spending £500 for my friend to hold my horse for 30 minutes once in a blue moon!

This suing culture is awful.
		
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You don't need employers cover to get a friend to hold your horse you need third party liability cover.
But in circunmtances where you have been negligent it not unreasonable for the law to hold you liable.
It is certainly not the same world I grew up in .
I choose not to sue for the life changing injury I suffered ( I don't want to go into details here ) because I felt its not the right thing to do however I was able that from the the cushion of an income large enough to absord the fairly large costs this accident has put on us for ever .
And that's not even taking into account the suffering and pain .
Others might have been able to afford to think that way , If I had been working for instance I would have lost my employment most people don't have luxury of going its just one of those things in that situation.


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## chocolategirl (1 September 2013)

Bucks Fizz said:



			Just because you CAN sue does not mean you should or that you would want to. Some of the examples above demonstrate just that!

The world is becoming a worse place because we are increasingly litigious. People are afraid to do things because of being sued. No one takes responsibility for their own actions.

I am not saying people should never bring claims but people should think long and hard about whether they feel it is right to do so.

You are absolutely 100% wrong to say that a claimant is suing the insurance company and not the individual. This is an increasingly common misconception and it is an attitude which encourages spurious claims.

When bringing a claim you also need to remember that, whilst the insurers may bear the financial responsibility (that is assuming there is suitable cover in place) the person being sued will not simply be left out of it and is likely to find the whole experience stressful and unpleasant no matter how good their insurers, solicitors and barrister are.

Cases involving animals in particular are complex and the Animals Act is a particularly tricky piece of legislation which can lead to judgments which are perceived as unfair. The high risk can mean that claims may be bought off rather than defended, but equally it can become a point of principle for an animal owner being sued and may be defended to trial in spite of the risks.
		
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Bucks Fizz, I couldn't agree more with you. I have been on the receiving end of litigation for something that was entirely the other persons fault (By her own admission at the time of the accident) it is indeed a very stressful process to go through and a very personal thing. I think morally, people have to take a long hard look at themselves before they enter the litigation process, and at least put themselves in the other person shoes for a moment and ask if they would be happy about being sued if the shoe was on the other foot? Sadly as many have said, we are living in a society where people are terrified of being sued and I often ask myself why people just can't take responsibility for their own actions. Horses are unpredictable and anyone who handles or rides them has to accept this.


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## Goldenstar (1 September 2013)

Horses being unprediticable does not mean an owner can't be negligent .


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## chocolategirl (1 September 2013)

Goldenstar said:



			Horses being unprediticable does not mean an owner can't be negligent .
		
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 In certain circumstances yes I agree. For example if I had a horse that was a known rearer say, and I allowed somebody to ride that horse without revealing that fact and an accident took place involving rearing, I would accept I had been negligent and hold my hand up, but if the horse was usually well mannered etc., and an accident occurred, then no I would not agree I was negligent as this is where the unpredictable nature of horses has to be taken into account surely? It seems to me that as a previous poster suggested, how about we all just refuse to ride or help with anyone else's horses and that way , hopefully no risk of being sued? I,m sure in time though, the leeches that are 'no win, no fee', lawyers, would find another very lucrative source of income at someone else's expense and misery!!


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## Booboos (1 September 2013)

But negligence does come into it. Another recent case had an employee suing for an accident that happened when she did not follow the employer's instructions. She was told to walk the horse on a particular route, but she cantered it on another (downhill) route and fell off. The court found in favour of the employer.


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## The wife (1 September 2013)

Its actually such a mine field that it scary, for those of you that may remember a few weeks ago about a post for prospective buyers trying another horse first, this is my biggest fear of being sued whilst trying the horse I am selling.  One can only do so much to protect themselves without accepting liability unintentionally.  Say for instance by wearing a 'caution young horse tabard' automatically accepting that said horse may play up. When does it stop? Know going slightly off track mind but at times I feel like we should all be wrapped up in cotton wool. Riding schools are the same, long gone are the days when we would canter bareback in headcollars to bring the ponies in from the fields or go apple bobbing for fear of spreading germs.  Our local riding school is being crippled by insurance costs because of the let's sue everybody mentality that those have for minor injuries, ie) a broken toe from being stood on!


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## Goldenstar (1 September 2013)

When selling a horse you need to be completely honest about what the horse does you need to produce the horse on the day in the safest way possible .
Your trail facilities must be suitable and safe.
Selling horses is difficult the court would look at what you did agaisnt what could be said to be the normal good pracise and they would also look at what the buyer did too.
And if you have third party liability you are covered if it all goes wrong so although it would be a deeply unpleasant experiance it would not cost you your home in a worse case senario.


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## cbmcts (1 September 2013)

I suspect people are forgetting that in a lot of cases that claims against them are not 'personal' i.e. that it's not somebody that you considered a friend/colleague/employee that is leading the issue.

For example, if I was injured on somebodies horse (for whatever reason) and I had to take time off and have treatment I would claim from my private medical and accident, sickness and unemployment (ASU) policies. That's what they're there for isn't it? The problem is that the minute I claim from them their small print allows them to act IN MY NAME to recover some or all of their costs if another person can be proved negligent. What should you do in those circumstances - not claim on the policies that you pay for just in case the horse owner is caught up in the claim and might have their actions scrutinised? I know very few people who can afford to do that. I'm not talking about bumps and bruises type injuries here but ones that leave people off work or have ongoing medical costs. Remember that even the NHS will claim their costs back from a car insurer for instance if you are injured in a crash as will your local council if, in the same crash you damage the street furniture! It's just the way the system works.

Employers are a different kettle of fish altogether. There are various laws that don't give them options regarding their responsibilities to employees and their need to have specific insurance to protect them financially. Where a lot of small businesses fall down is that they find themselves unintentionally uninsured because they don't see the need to comply with the conditions that their insurance companies impose on them regarding risk assessments, safety signs, proper training and so on for their staff. As a result when there is an accident they contact the ins co and are told that they can't claim - not because the staff member isn't entitled (yes entitled, even though that word will make people froth ) but because they didn't follow the correct procedures they are now legally personally liable. I have very little sympathy for employers in those cases - it's not difficult in the internet age to find out what you need to do and how to do it well. 

When it comes to people riding a 'personal' horse it is relatively easy to protect yourself. Know what your insurance covers, read the small print. When you are loaning/sharing a horse don't let them on without seeing a copy of their rider insurance. Take a photo of it your phone, only takes a second. When selling, send an email with received and read receipts (or even a text) stating any quirks and the level of rider experience required. Just a little forethought means that while you still might be sued you now have a good defence against any claim.

Yes, in a lot of ways it is wrong that you can be held responsible for some of the things that horses do as we all know that they are large unpredictable animals but the fact is that you can be and people need to be aware of the possibility.


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## cbmcts (1 September 2013)

The wife said:



			Its actually such a mine field that it scary, for those of you that may remember a few weeks ago about a post for prospective buyers trying another horse first, this is my biggest fear of being sued whilst trying the horse I am selling.  One can only do so much to protect themselves without accepting liability unintentionally.  Say for instance by wearing a 'caution young horse tabard' automatically accepting that said horse may play up. When does it stop? Know going slightly off track mind but at times I feel like we should all be wrapped up in cotton wool. Riding schools are the same, long gone are the days when we would canter bareback in headcollars to bring the ponies in from the fields or go apple bobbing for fear of spreading germs.  Our local riding school is being crippled by insurance costs because of the let's sue everybody mentality that those have for minor injuries, ie) a broken toe from being stood on!
		
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I commented on that thread and remember saying that you were doing the right thing in trying to keep people safe - once you put procedures in place you have a defence if anyone is injured and in the worse case scenario your insurance would pay out. Hopefully your precautions would mean that any injuries wouldn't happen anyway. In fact, that's the reason for H&S rules - to avoid anything other than true unforseen accidents...

If a RS or similar business has done all their paperwork and actually put in place the procedures that the risk assessments flag up as potentially dangerous they will find that that a client suing them has no case i.e. if somebody has a broken toe they weren't wearing the proper boots that they were told must be worn around the horses when they signed a disclaimer on their first visit to the RS.

And while I was a kid many, many years ago who cantered ponies bareback I was also a kid that spent a lot of time in casualty because I fell off a lot  That's fine because my parents accepted responsibility for me and my rubbish riding. RS need to make parents responsible for their children again and make it clear that children are only allowed to do the 'riskier' bareback canters etc if the parents give permission in writing. It's a pain but manageable and just one of those things you have to do especially if you are taking peoples money for a service.


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