# Access and loopy landowners



## FfionWinnie (24 August 2013)

Out on the ponies with my friend and her daughter riding down a hard track in walk when we were stopped by the landowner. He wouldn't identify himself other than he owns it but I know him, and I know he does. He did not recognise me but is a neighbour I have met socially occasionally. 

He said it was private land and we have no right to be there and he started taking photos of us. 

I said the access code says we can be here and we are doing nothing wrong, he said no, this is a foot path you cannot be on it on a horse and continued taking photos.  We stood there for about five minutes politely trying to reason with him and he asked us our names which we did not give, my friend (out of the area so doesn't know him) asked him for his name and he also would not give it, obviously, I know his name already. 

He said he had seen horses riding on "the grass" which is the ground between forestry so not a crop, and the game crops. I've never seen another horse or tracks of a horse up there, and I have not ridden on the crop. At this time, we were on the hard track. I have looked up the access code to check and we were well with in the law. I have ridden up there for over a year and not seen him, and he has not seen me before as I am sure he would have challenged me. Its a desolate spot and no one goes there (he has a history of harassing walkers which could be why!). 

As we had two small girls (4 and 5 yrs old) we turned back onto a path he could not pursue us on. I was concerned had we carried on the track he could have (and probably would have) pursued us in his vehicle. 

So what would you do. 

Ignore him, continue riding up there and hope not to see him again. 

Educate him, post him a copy of the access code with the relevant parts highlighted anon or otherwise. 

Take it further, I don't want to make trouble over it but part of me feels that trying to intimidate us when we had small girls in tow is really not on. 

I have purposefully avoided his land and never been on it around his house/very long access track, I hadn't actually realised he owned this bit, but as its no where near his house and we are not doing any harm or breaking the access code, I don't see why we should stop using it. 

Other option is I write or phone him and let him know it was me he was accosting. He has always been extremely charming and he will know who I am right away if I do so. But I fear he is also slightly insane over situations like this and I am not sure what the outcome would be.


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## windseywoo (24 August 2013)

Get in touch with your council. I know access laws are different in Scotland, but if you know who this person is, you can report him for hassling you and taking photos. As you had two young children with you I'd use the "he was upsetting the children" card. If you know you have a right to be there, then don't stop using the route just because he's unpleasant. If he didn't recognise you, I wouldn't get in touch with him in normal garb until you've spoken to someone official.


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## Irishdan (24 August 2013)

Not sure where you are but you should contact your local Access Officer (I am in Angus) - will be in the phone book under your local Council.  He will take details of the incident and contact the landowner to keep him up to date with the law.  A lot of these farmer types either dont know the law or simply dont want to know them.
Sounds like he was the one breaking the law by taking photos of you all especially given you had two wee tots with you:/
We had a similar experience on more than one occasion with a very angry little farmer.  Like you we were on a very wide stone farm track, walking and doing no harm to anyone.  He wheel spun his jeep towards the horses then tried to prevent us getting off a very busy main road by standing like a star fish in a gateway.  I got the Police involved and he was giving a stern talking to given his volitile behaviour.  My partner contacted the local access officer who was very interested and asked us for all details.  He in turn made contact with the farmer and explained the Access code.  Farmer has never bothered us again but his son makes a point of asking us to leave the track if we ever go that way and he spots us.  Its truly ridiculous given the track we are on.  Its totally a power thing with them :/


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## FfionWinnie (24 August 2013)

Thanks. He did upset the children, they are both still asking about "the bad man"

I've checked the access code and we are totally blameless and whiter than white.

My worry is he may now work out who I am and where I live.

I'm in Scotland, that's why I posted it in regional as I know the law is totally different up here.


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## Irishdan (24 August 2013)

Actually the more I think about it I reckon you should pop into your local Police Station and report it!  He has to know he cant get away with that!  Imagine if it was two children out on their ponies!


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## MagicMelon (24 August 2013)

Sounds like something I think my local landowner would do! He's a right muppet from the stories I've heard about him and causes an arguement over absolutely everything, he has a sign at the end of a track leading to a wind farm saying "horse riders must seek permission", I'll be approaching him soon about it... Maybe you're near me and this is the same guy!

Personally, I'd print off info from the BHS where it states the law about exactly where you can go (which is basically everywhere) and he has no right to say otherwise.  Send it to him with a polite letter explaining why you appreciate being able to ride on his track due to roads being so dangerous nowadays especially with children.


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## brucea (24 August 2013)

Next time tell him the police were very interested to hear that he was taking pictures of children without parental permission and may be coming to talk to him.


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## bonny (24 August 2013)

Don't be put off going there again, there are farmers who rely on the fact that if they shout at people or put up warning signs or whatever to put people off that horseriders will stay away and alot of them do just that. The law only works if people use it otherwise it's a waste of time.


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## TrasaM (24 August 2013)

Sounds a bit like the man who owns the farm next to the yard I'm at.  He's recently blocked off the bridle path in two sections with no notice, warning nor explanation and the yard we have to go through by his barns is littered with a constantly changing pile of discarded rubbish. As to keeping track of which field the cattle will be in, not a chance. I've never known cattle to move around so much. All perfectly legal but designed to inconvenience I'm sure.  
FW..It sounds like he needs the law explaining to him.. Hopefully by someone in uniform .


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## Dry Rot (25 August 2013)

I agree with Angus Dan. I politely asked my neighbour if it would be alright for the girls to hack out on about 600 acres of young private forestry next door. I was told it would not be alright! I said nothing but had a quiet word with the Access Officer. We are now hacking out and nothing more has been said.

Doing it this way means good neighbour relations are maintained, we've avoided a confrontation, my neighbour now knows the law, and he hasn't lost face - and the access officer is doing something to justify his job and the money I pay in Council Tax!


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## FfionWinnie (25 August 2013)

He has a long record of harassing walkers incidentally. Usually thought his staff however, who have been prosecuted for it.


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## oldhat (2 September 2013)

Sounds like where I live, i rode for 5 yrs down a local estate til suddenly the owner stopped us saying everyone EXCEPT horse riders could go there! We are too scared to go there now as he menaces you , one of his workers already drove a tractor into me and my mare and rendered my bomb proof horse dangerous on roads after being totally unflappable. I rang council and they agree it should all be open, it used to be a cross country course before this git took over and turned it into a farm and sold shooting rights. I told the council 2 yrs ago and am too worried to even ring them again, they said they'd be in touch but nothing! Why are we all so scared? Cos he's our neighbour and could make our lives even worse. What should we do next?


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## Bestdogdash (2 September 2013)

If you know him socially and is charming, why not start with a phone call along the lines of ' ok if, promise to stick to track, won't go in bad conditions etc' first ? Regardless of the rights and wrongs, if you treat him courteously as a neighbour, you may be surprised at the result. You can always resort to the letter of the law if that fails. 

As a landowner, on a few of the fields, we leave a margin (which my husband worked hard to keep n top order) for our own riding/hacking/fitness programme. I am happy for all the local riders to use it as a nice long canter place (I have no obligation to do so) but have asked that it isn't used when very wet - ruins the track. Once or twice as I have been walking the dog I have seen riders using it and asked riders to not ride there because the ground was sodden and received either a) foul mouthed abuse or b) lectures on 'rights' / access officer / police etc. Interstingly, I have never been thanked. Someone giving me a quick call, and assuring me they would be respectful of the land would go a long way with me.


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## Bestdogdash (2 September 2013)

In reply to Oldhat...

Accept that the land is sold, has become a shooting estate (presumably with legal sporting rights licenced) and that horses and guns don't really mix ? If your horse bolted with fear because of a nearby gunshot, I assume you wouldn't be happy? 

Things change, he owns the land and can do as he wishes. If a tractor was driven into you of course that would be completely unacceptable. I am surprised that you didn't report that immediately to the police.


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## dogatemysalad (2 September 2013)

Intimidation and unpleasantness from landowners is very effective in deterring access. We had one farmer locally who made life as difficult as possible for horseriders to use bridleways here in England- so very much more restricted than for you in Scotland.

The law is one thing but anticipating meeting a nasty landowner is very off putting and the arrogant ones know it. Your man might be nice in social situations but in showing his true colours, he isn't.

I'd report him to the council access officer and see if they think contacting the police would be useful.

Other than that, have a word with a local rambling or cycling group. They may have a few members who are happy to stand up to him.

Or wear a headcam. He may be camera shy.


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## dogatemysalad (2 September 2013)

Bestdogdash said:



			Accept that the land is sold, has become a shooting estate (presumably with legal sporting rights licenced) and that horses and guns don't really mix ? If your horse bolted with fear because of a nearby gunshot, I assume you wouldn't be happy?
		
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LOL, if shoots, crop scarers and quarry blasts deterred us from riding, we'd never leave the ménage. Horses get used to anything if it occurs regularly.


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## Bestdogdash (2 September 2013)

dogatemysalad said:



			LOL, if shoots, crop scarers and quarry blasts deterred us from riding, we'd never leave the ménage. Horses get used to anything if it occurs regularly.
		
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I agree ! But you can see that a landowner (in this litigious age) may be wary of this becoming an issue - it only take one ....


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## lachlanandmarcus (2 September 2013)

Bestdogdash said:



			In reply to Oldhat...

Accept that the land is sold, has become a shooting estate (presumably with legal sporting rights licenced) and that horses and guns don't really mix ? If your horse bolted with fear because of a nearby gunshot, I assume you wouldn't be happy? 

Things change, he owns the land and can do as he wishes. If a tractor was driven into you of course that would be completely unacceptable. I am surprised that you didn't report that immediately to the police.
		
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Ummm it doesn't work like that in Scotland. Of course she needs to work around the shooting, to ensure its safe for both. But he doesn't have the right to ban access, Full Stop.


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## TrasaM (2 September 2013)

Our happy farmer neighbour closed off the bridle path again last week. The path is a rear access way which goes through his yard. No notice on bottom gate but got up the slope and around bend and there were metal gates blocking the way. Wouldn't mind if he'd put a notice up then we'd chose a different route.


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## oldhat (2 September 2013)

Bestdogdash- I did report the accident to the police, I agree that you shouldn't ride when shooting's going on but it's only rarely happening, not even weekly, so why can they not put red flag up to warn us, everywhere else I lived did this and we all got along fine. This guy has been caught menacing a young girl riding her pony, terrifying her, they are pretty unpleasant and she came home in tears, her home being right next door to the farm. I agree with Dogatemysalad, we'd never go anywhere if we gave up at the first sign of a problem. We ALL have the legal right here to use the land as long as we take others into account. The bridle ways lady sent me a map showing the tracks I (knew) I could use but I'm too much of a wuss to dare go down there, it is the ONLY wooded and rivered area in this entire corner of east Aberdeenshire and there has always been a right of way. Moan moan!!


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## lachlanandmarcus (2 September 2013)

oldhat said:



			Bestdogdash- I did report the accident to the police, I agree that you shouldn't ride when shooting's going on but it's only rarely happening, not even weekly, so why can they not put red flag up to warn us, everywhere else I lived did this and we all got along fine. This guy has been caught menacing a young girl riding her pony, terrifying her, they are pretty unpleasant and she came home in tears, her home being right next door to the farm. I agree with Dogatemysalad, we'd never go anywhere if we gave up at the first sign of a problem. We ALL have the legal right here to use the land as long as we take others into account. The bridle ways lady sent me a map showing the tracks I (knew) I could use but I'm too much of a wuss to dare go down there, it is the ONLY wooded and rivered area in this entire corner of east Aberdeenshire and there has always been a right of way. Moan moan!!
		
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Can I suggest investing in a helmet cam? That way you can go out knowing that your route will be proven and also any intimidation you face.


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## oldhat (2 September 2013)

The idea of a helmet cam is a great idea!! Now where can I find one??!!


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## lachlanandmarcus (2 September 2013)

oldhat said:



			The idea of a helmet cam is a great idea!! Now where can I find one??!! 

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Lots online, mainly marketed to cyclists.

Here's just one example. You can also use it to record your XC round from the saddle and instructor can use it to record lessons so one can see ones errors and terrible position ! 

http://www.roadhawk.co.uk/roadhawk-ride-bullet-camera/prod_29.html


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## Mithras (2 September 2013)

I had quite an "exceptional day" last week near Aberdeen.  First I rode one horse up to the neighouring farm to politely ask if I could occasionally ride through their farmyard to access a set of tracks on the other side of the road which it led to.  The farmer took this as an excuse to indulge in a rant which included his power to "drive me off the road and put me in the ditch" and how I didn't pay road tax (actually I pay 3 lots, but that's by the by).  There was actually spittle coming out of his mouth, so worked up was he.  So that would be a no.  I wish I had had a helmet cam to record him, he would have been a YouTube sensation!

I then rode my other horse along a track next to Countesswells Forest.  There are a few rural properties off the track and I had a short canter on a short grassy side track off the main track.  Its actually very difficult to find anywhere suitable to canter.  A woman then came out of her house and started ranting at me for cantering on the main track (she was mistaken) and causing damage to it, I should walk my horse everywhere, did I know they spent good money maintaining it, etc..

Finally, I went out for a run that evening, trying to explore new tracks for riding, I was running along the public road and two dogs came out of some woodland next to it, one lept up and bit me.  I spent the rest of the evening in A & E getting the wound treated and anti-tetanus booster.  Not only that, but the dogs were wearing electric collars and their owner managed to zap me as well!  When she asked if I wanted to come in so she could clean the wound, I said not likely and hightailed it away from there asap!


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## lachlanandmarcus (3 September 2013)

Mithras said:



			I had quite an "exceptional day" last week near Aberdeen.  First I rode one horse up to the neighouring farm to politely ask if I could occasionally ride through their farmyard to access a set of tracks on the other side of the road which it led to.  The farmer took this as an excuse to indulge in a rant which included his power to "drive me off the road and put me in the ditch" and how I didn't pay road tax (actually I pay 3 lots, but that's by the by).  There was actually spittle coming out of his mouth, so worked up was he.  So that would be a no.  I wish I had had a helmet cam to record him, he would have been a YouTube sensation!

I then rode my other horse along a track next to Countesswells Forest.  There are a few rural properties off the track and I had a short canter on a short grassy side track off the main track.  Its actually very difficult to find anywhere suitable to canter.  A woman then came out of her house and started ranting at me for cantering on the main track (she was mistaken) and causing damage to it, I should walk my horse everywhere, did I know they spent good money maintaining it, etc..

Finally, I went out for a run that evening, trying to explore new tracks for riding, I was running along the public road and two dogs came out of some woodland next to it, one lept up and bit me.  I spent the rest of the evening in A & E getting the wound treated and anti-tetanus booster.  Not only that, but the dogs were wearing electric collars and their owner managed to zap me as well!  When she asked if I wanted to come in so she could clean the wound, I said not likely and hightailed it away from there asap!
		
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Crikey sounds like some of these people need a visit from the access officer! If track verges are close to a house and lawnmowers mown rather than just topped I stay off them, but other that that they should be ok unless it's very muddy leading to gouges. 

I would contact BHS access officer (think it might be Ruth Riddell for Aberdeen, she's on FB) and the police if the person is being threatening. 

Personally when riding somewhere clearly covered by the access legislation and not near house curtilage, I wouldn't be asking any permissions, since they are not required and asking it as a question lends credence to the owners thinking that they can say no, which they can't but they do in some cases. 

Helmet cam here as well I reckon.

I should add that as well as being a rider I have a small farm and we have the downside of other people riding right through on a track, so I'm not coming at this just from a rider pov, I can see why they want to say no but they cant, that's the law.


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## RLS (3 September 2013)

However, the Land Reform (Scotland) Act does not allow access rights through the actual farm yard/ steading, unless there is already a right of way here.
Similar situation - I have previously asked permission from a farmer's wife, who said yes, that's ok to ride here. Then couple of weeks later when riding through, angry farmer comes out to tell me to leave - turns out Mr and Mrs farmer don't actually speak to each other, so he didn't know that I had asked permission first!


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## Mithras (3 September 2013)

Well the track went right through the middle of the farm so wouldn't be covered by the right of access, which is why I asked permission.  But in view of getting bitten by a dog on the other side its now somewhere I wouldn't want to go with a horse.  All the woods nearby are currently closed for tree felling, the bypass is getting built soon nearby and theres no other off road tracks at all, so its roadwork only.  The ranting farmer seemed to be showing off his ranting powers to a visitor who looked mightily embarrassed by the whole thing, the ranting woman really had no excuse as I only cantered on a grass track which led to a field opening which had nothing to do with her or the main track and was walking when she came out to rant.  Unfortunately some people are so quick to find fault in anything that anyone going faster than a sedate pace is something for them to get excited about, as are the sound of hoofbeats.

It really was an awful day, I had had enough of mad ranting people by the time I got out of A&E at 11pm!  The dog owner was the most pleasant of the lot and very apologetic but the invitation to her house just about finished me off - by this point I had visions of the film The Hills Have Eyes and never getting away from there in one piece!  I'm not from Aberdeen and am actually beginning to wonder if there is some local custom I'm missing, as I've previously had a horseowner complain about me cantering up a country track and making her horses canter about their field, which apparently could have been "dangerous", even though they were separated by 2 fields from said track.


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## FfionWinnie (5 September 2013)

Oops haven't been back on this thread and didn't know it had got replies. 

You are right the folk who said its off putting. I still haven't been back. There is no shooting up there, as far as I can tell. Never seen them/heard them and the pheasant feeders are never filled just lying about on the ground. No gun cartridges etc. 

Keep thinking of reasons not to go that way!

Mithras, that sounds horrendous poor you!


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## brucea (7 September 2013)

I'm not from Aberdeen and am actually beginning to wonder if there is some local custom I'm missing,
		
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AAAARRR we don't like strangers up here! Set the dogs on them we do! Where's me pitchfork..... 

I know where you were Mithras. Some right idiots around there. Roads are mad too.

There are lots of lovely people up here, but there are a lot of idiots too who think that you having a horse puts you above them in some way, they think you must be rich and there's some mad convention about being horrid to horse owners. If you are on any path shared by pedestrians expect to get told that "horses aren't allowed" by someone each time. 

We keep our lads on a working arable farm and since there has been harvesting going on for the last couple of week we have not been riding up to today. Our farmer has no problem letting people go up through the farm to the woods - but he does admit he hates the way they set the dogs off, and since there is a lot of farm machinery moving around he is very aware of the potential for accidents.


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## Irishdan (7 September 2013)

Mithras said:



			I had quite an "exceptional day" last week near Aberdeen.  First I rode one horse up to the neighouring farm to politely ask if I could occasionally ride through their farmyard to access a set of tracks on the other side of the road which it led to.  The farmer took this as an excuse to indulge in a rant which included his power to "drive me off the road and put me in the ditch" and how I didn't pay road tax (actually I pay 3 lots, but that's by the by).  There was actually spittle coming out of his mouth, so worked up was he.  So that would be a no.  I wish I had had a helmet cam to record him, he would have been a YouTube sensation!

I then rode my other horse along a track next to Countesswells Forest.  There are a few rural properties off the track and I had a short canter on a short grassy side track off the main track.  Its actually very difficult to find anywhere suitable to canter.  A woman then came out of her house and started ranting at me for cantering on the main track (she was mistaken) and causing damage to it, I should walk my horse everywhere, did I know they spent good money maintaining it, etc..

Finally, I went out for a run that evening, trying to explore new tracks for riding, I was running along the public road and two dogs came out of some woodland next to it, one lept up and bit me.  I spent the rest of the evening in A & E getting the wound treated and anti-tetanus booster.  Not only that, but the dogs were wearing electric collars and their owner managed to zap me as well!  When she asked if I wanted to come in so she could clean the wound, I said not likely and hightailed it away from there asap!
		
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Sounds like your angry wee farmer in Aberdeen is most probably related to my angry wee farmer in Angus!  Had a laugh at them being YouTube sensations lol!  I have no idea where the anger and hostility stems from and whats worse is a good number of them actually own fire arms!!  Its all about power me thinks


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## frozzy (10 September 2013)

When we lived in our previous house the factory owner who also owned 90% of the houses surrounding ours locked all gates including bridle paths which the local Common Riding used once a year so apart from once a year nobody could use it or any of the other paths/fields around us. The only other way to ride was to get on to the main road to which we had to cross a level crossing! This man is a law unto himself and always will be. Money talks with our council and he always gets his own way. I came out one day to find him narrowing the entrance to our driveway with a fencer! Stating he was renewing the original fence line. We had lived in the house for twenty years and the fence line was never where he said it was. OH sorted it with a chain saw. We were threatened that if we didnt allow him to do what he wished we would be "very sorry" Handed that one to the local constabulary.


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## FfionWinnie (11 September 2013)

Went back up there a bit tonight. Horse was mad and I was looking for him constantly and worrying about trip wires and all sorts. Seems he's won!


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## treacle86 (11 September 2013)

whereabouts are you ffionwinnie ? 

 sounds very like farmer we had arun in with a few times, he does own most of land around , but even bits he doesnt , he comes down , shouting , swearing , driving big truck with snarling dog hanging off the back of it , another one who doesnt care when he is terrorising children too , hes dug up bits of the road and removed top soil from a steel framed bridge so we cant ride over it now , police and access been to see him, warned him, but he thinks he can keep doing it , this is tealing /inveraldie area we encounter him , its a shame as there are so many insane farmers and landowners who ruin it for us walkers, riders etc but then there are the same walkers and riders etc who ruin land and rights by not being respectful etc xx


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## AengusOg (11 September 2013)

FfionWinnie, I am confused as to why you didn't give this individual your name, particularly as you say you know who he is and have met him socially. You are a shepherd, or at least involved in some form of livestock work, are you not? Surely, had you identified yourself, this man would have realised that you are a neighbour, involved in rural employment, and, possibly, the whole thing could have been resolved on the spot. 

I know it shouldn't make any difference, in terms of the Access Code, whether you are a neighbour, or what your ties with the area are, but, as a shepherd myself, I am well aware of how farmers' and land-owners' relationships work. They all know each other, and there is always a degree of inter-dependency which tends to keep the gears oiled, so to speak.


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## FfionWinnie (12 September 2013)

I don't think it would have made much difference if he knew who I was (he likely does now). He was very aggressive and I just on the spot, didn't want to give him my name to be honest, it had got past the "oh its you that's ok" stage by the time he asked.

With any of my other neighbours I would totally agree with you (plus they would have recognised me and not been bothered anyway).


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