# UKIP - are the party for repeal



## Judgemental (13 May 2013)

I am beginning to wonder if UKIP are not the the party we should all support to cause a repeal of the Hunting Act 2004.

Their Manifesto states that there will be a county by county referendum concerning the 2004 Hunting Act.

When Mr Nigel Farage was campaining recently in Lincolnshire he was a wearing a BFSS red tie - splendid fellow. 

He has put the wind up Cameron (you will note I speak of Mr Farage as opposed to Cameron), so much so the latter has flown to Washington to reassure the Americans about our status in Europe when Cameron announces the referendum.

Some will argue that a vote for UKIP will give the keys to 10 Downing Street to Labour, well so be it. The Conservatives have done nothing whatsoever to repeal the Hunting Act 2004. At least UKIP are having a crack at the job.


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## Fidgety (13 May 2013)

Agree.  There's much more to UKIP than exiting the EU - and that's what's scaring the other parties right now!


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## Twinkley Lights (13 May 2013)

I would hope that after their p poor economic performance that Labour would be unelectable for generations to come. I'm undecided on the others. Lets hope we actually have proper policy debates and manefestos unlike last time.


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## Fidgety (13 May 2013)

Twinkley Lights said:



			Lets hope we actually have proper policy debates and manefestos unlike last time.
		
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Don't hedge your bets on there being more TV debates though - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-Nigel-Farage-demanding-place-UKIP-claim.html


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## Judgemental (13 May 2013)

*EXTRACT FROM THE UKIP 2010 MANIFESTO*

The rural economy has sustained heavy blows in recent decades. The scares surrounding salmonella and BSE hit farmers hard, as did the recent foot and mouth outbreak. Many young people are leaving the countryside due to a lack of perceived job opportunities, and difficulties climbing on the housing ladder. The banning of hunting and other countryside pursuits was seen by many in the countryside as little more than class revenge by an urban political elite, with damaging consequences for rural culture, identity and leisure.  The scenes of countryside folk being ruthlessly beaten and arrested by police during a peaceful demonstration in response to this ban outside the Houses of Parliament remains a disgraceful chapter in British political history.

http://www.ukip.org/index.php/issues/2013-01-25-10-55-7/2010-manifesto?id=505


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## LittleBlackMule (13 May 2013)

Another vote for UKIP here. I've been following Nigel Farage for years (not literally I'm not a stalker ) and I've no doubt if he ever made prime minister most of this country's problems would be solved.


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## Shutterbug (13 May 2013)

Their stance on hunting is the least of my concerns - I do like their idea for immigrants and benefits and for making the entry to the UK for work the same as what America and Australia do - a points system.  They do need to change their attitude towards gay marriage and Scottish independence before they get my vote though but I can see why so many people are giving them a vote.


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## Countryman (13 May 2013)

Judgemental the key flaw in your otherwise seemingly ideal plan for Britain is what you yourself outlined-that voting UKIP will hand Labour the keys to power. 

If the reason you are backing UKIP is to get repeal, then your argument does not hold up.

Unfortunately, if you vote UKIP, Labour will get in in 2015 and that will be the end of Hunting. It will be gone. I fear they will tighten the ban and remove every possible loophole, (As POWA are lobbying them to do; indeed POWA have produced a draft New Huntjng Act) which would result in nothing even remotely resembling hunting being legal in this country, along with much harsher penalties (think prison time). 

I agree with much of what UKIP say and I find Farage to be quite a reasonable sensible party leader. If they agreed to repeal the ban I might have more sympathy for them however. 

A county-wide referendum is simply not going to keep hunting going. Certainly not in any counties with urbanisation or cities - so no hunting in the home counties, anywhere within 50 miles of London, the midlands, even Leicestershire. Ok it *might*
Get lifted in parts of the West Country but even that is dubious.

Now if it was rural people only allowed to vote...

No, I stand by the Tories I'm afraid. From a purely hunting point of view they are the party that will get is repeal - and they will if they have a majority, I'm confident of that. Look at their MP's - Nick Herbert, former Huntsman of the Newmarket Beagles, Simon Hart of the CA, Cameron himself - no matter how wet you might find him - is a country man and comes from a hunting background. The vast vast majority of Tory MP's back repeal and will vote for it. 

I apologise from what seems to be, looking back, a party political broadcast, but from a Hunting point of view the Tories are the only ones who are going to deliver Repeal.


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## Alec Swan (13 May 2013)

Fidgety said:



			......  There's much more to UKIP than exiting the EU - and that's what's scaring the other parties right now! 

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Really?  I wish that someone would explain to me what it is!  They'll extricate us from the EU,  and they're showing a passing interest in things rural.  So far so good,  but what of their other policies?  Do they have an agenda,  of any sort?

Alec.


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## Judgemental (13 May 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			Really?  I wish that someone would explain to me what it is!  They'll extricate us from the EU,  and they're showing a passing interest in things rural.  So far so good,  but what of their other policies?  Do they have an agenda,  of any sort?

Alec.
		
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I was a sceptic but Alec it's all there: http://www.ukip.org/index.php/issues/2013-01-25-10-55-7/2010-manifesto

At the very least it will make the Conservatives get off their backsides.


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## Anglebracket (13 May 2013)

Would you really vote for a party based on one relatively trivial issue? There are far more important issues than hunting. If UKIP's policies float your boat then by all means vote for them but please consider their policies as a whole. The one policy you vote a party in for may never happen. Look what the LibDems did with student fees. Most of UKIP's support is based on the fact that they are anti EU. That is what they will focus on when they get into power. Hunting is a side issue to get the rural vote.


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## Hunters (14 May 2013)

Well I've traipsed the streets for the last two elections on behalf of hunting for the conservatives & was forwarded an email from a fairly well known MP stating that he had been elected on his own merit & the hunting folk had nothing to do with his election.

Hmmmp !!! I for one am done helping the Conservatives & will watch UKIP with interest..,


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## happyhunter123 (14 May 2013)

Who do you think will win the next election?

In many ways I struggle to imagine Labour winning with Miliband leading them, and even if they do, I predict that he'll probably be worse than Brown (that's beside the point though).

The Lib Dems will do abysmally.

The Tories are losing support to UKIP, and if they couldn't get a majority last time, they're almost certain not to get one this time. 

UKIP are unlikely, in reality to win many seats. 

The best thing would be to have a UKIP/Tory coalition, but I can't see it happening.

Remember, not all UKIP candidates will be pro hunting-it'll be as with the Tories. 

Nothing looks very promising.


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## Twinkley Lights (14 May 2013)

happyhunter123 said:



			In many ways I struggle to imagine Labour winning with Miliband leading them, and even if they do, I predict that he'll probably be worse than Brown (that's beside the point though).

QUOTE]

That would be impossible I worked for him and all rumours were true about his demeanour and temper.
		
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## happyhunter123 (14 May 2013)

Twinkley Lights said:





happyhunter123 said:



			In many ways I struggle to imagine Labour winning with Miliband leading them, and even if they do, I predict that he'll probably be worse than Brown (that's beside the point though).

QUOTE]

That would be impossible I worked for him and all rumours were true about his demeanour and temper.
		
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Impossible in regards to Brown? I can sort of see....

But still Miliband seems to have all the charisma and leadership skills of a turnip. 

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## Judgemental (14 May 2013)

We now have an acceptable alternative to vote for so far as hunting and rural affairs are concerned.

Chris Moncrieff in The Western Daily Press has a good piece today, which starts off as follows; 

"Fred Karnows Army is beginning to look like a well drilled, efficent fighting force in comparison with the ramshackle, rickety coalition government".

He is so right and what have they done for country folk, nothing. At least UKIP might cause them to do something but I doubt it! 

Perhaps use of the Statutory Instrument built into the Hunting Act. 

I realised that we were simply not being led when George Osborne was seen weeping a Lady Thatcher's funeral - pathetic and Cameron was telling us we were all Thatcherite.

I was earwigging a couple of lads in their early 20's, at the time of the lady's death and they were at something of a loss as to who exactly she was. One said, "oh something in the last millenium". Almost in the same vein as Boadicea or Joan of Ark, sums it all up.


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## Countryman (14 May 2013)

Our right to hunt is not something that can be gambled with. It is vital that we have it back.

Some of you have suggested hunting is a trivial issue and should not influence who you vote for.

It may be trivial for some of you, but for many of us, Hunting is one of the most important things in our lives. It is part of our identity. And for me, I would not vote for an Anti-Hunting candidate even if I supported all of his other policies.


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## Hunters (15 May 2013)

David Cameron, whilst I acknowledge is in a difficult position with the Lib Dems, would seem to have the charisma and leadership skills of a mole & Ed Milliband, well he's excellent at sending me to sleep!

Nigel Farage is possibly a bit bonkers, but he at least seems innovative lively and has some fresh ideas. 

If I was the Mfha, i would be cosying up to him & striking a deal, after all, the Mfha have a little army of leaflet droppers at their disposal....


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## Herne (15 May 2013)

A referendum by county, as promised by UKIP, would be hopeless.

In Cambridgeshire, for example, the pro-hunting people in rural areas would be competeing against the city dwellers of Peterborough and Cambridge. The same situation would pertain for most counties in England.

It may have escaped your notice that hunting people are a *minority*. If you want the Hunting Act repealed, then you need a party that will protect the rights of minorities to make their own moral choices, not one that will just crush them under the burden of public opinion - in the guise of allowing local referendums. 

_"Democracy must be something more than two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner."_ - James Bovard

There is only one political party at present that offers any hope for the repeal of the Hunting Act, and that is the Conservative Party.

Yes, they have not repealed it yet &#8211; but that is because they do not have the power to do so, not because they do not have the will. Too many people make the mistake of forgetting that even though we have a Conservative Prime Minister , we do not have a Conservative *Government* &#8211; and it is only a Conservative Government that will repeal the Hunting Act.

Had Labour won in 2010, we would not be saying now &#8220;Oh, the Conservatives haven&#8217;t repealed the Hunting Act yet, so we won&#8217;t support them next time&#8221;. We would all recognise that they don&#8217;t have the power. Well, that wouldn&#8217;t be because Labour won, it would be because the Conservatives *didn&#8217;t* win &#8211; and that is exactly the same situation that we are in now.

Getting cross with someone for not doing something that they do not have the power to do is simply wasting your energy, Much better to spend that energy in giving them the power to do it.


As for the rest of UKIP&#8217;s policies, they don&#8217;t seem to have any more substance either.

When I was down in Eastleigh, supporting the pro-repeal candidate in the by-election this spring, I ended up &#8220;telling&#8221; at a polling station with 2 UKIP Councillors (who had both been elected as Tories, incidentally).

I asked them: &#8220;OK, so you want to get out of Europe. Fair enough, But, British agriculture has been constructed around the European grant system for the past 40 years. If you pull us out of Europe, that will be cut off overnight. How do you propose to prevent thousands of British farmers going to wall in the chaos?&#8221;

After looking confused for a while, the best they could offer was &#8220;Oh, well, the important thing is to make the decision. We can work out the details later.&#8221;

That is hardly a basis for sound government.

Because UKIP have no hope of winning a majority, they can promise pie-in-the-sky because they know they will never have to deliver.

Don&#8217;t fall for it, it&#8217;s all fairy dust. 

Put your votes and your work into a party that actually has a chance of forming a Government. 

Don&#8217;t waste it on meaningless protest votes &#8211; especially if that means that a party that you like even less than the one you are protesting against might win instead.


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## Judgemental (15 May 2013)

Herne said:



			A referendum by county, as promised by UKIP, would be hopeless.

In Cambridgeshire, for example, the pro-hunting people in rural areas would be competeing against the city dwellers of Peterborough and Cambridge. The same situation would pertain for most counties in England.

It may have escaped your notice that hunting people are a *minority*. If you want the Hunting Act repealed, then you need a party that will protect the rights of minorities to make their own moral choices, not one that will just crush them under the burden of public opinion - in the guise of allowing local referendums. 

_"Democracy must be something more than two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner."_ - James Bovard

There is only one political party at present that offers any hope for the repeal of the Hunting Act, and that is the Conservative Party.

Yes, they have not repealed it yet  but that is because they do not have the power to do so, not because they do not have the will. Too many people make the mistake of forgetting that even though we have a Conservative Prime Minister , we do not have a Conservative *Government*  and it is only a Conservative Government that will repeal the Hunting Act.

Had Labour won in 2010, we would not be saying now Oh, the Conservatives havent repealed the Hunting Act yet, so we wont support them next time. We would all recognise that they dont have the power. Well, that wouldnt be because Labour won, it would be because the Conservatives *didnt* win  and that is exactly the same situation that we are in now.

Getting cross with someone for not doing something that they do not have the power to do is simply wasting your energy, Much better to spend that energy in giving them the power to do it.


As for the rest of UKIPs policies, they dont seem to have any more substance either.

When I was down in Eastleigh, supporting the pro-repeal candidate in the by-election this spring, I ended up telling at a polling station with 2 UKIP Councillors (who had both been elected as Tories, incidentally).

I asked them: OK, so you want to get out of Europe. Fair enough, But, British agriculture has been constructed around the European grant system for the past 40 years. If you pull us out of Europe, that will be cut off overnight. How do you propose to prevent thousands of British farmers going to wall in the chaos?

After looking confused for a while, the best they could offer was Oh, well, the important thing is to make the decision. We can work out the details later.

That is hardly a basis for sound government.

Because UKIP have no hope of winning a majority, they can promise pie-in-the-sky because they know they will never have to deliver.

Dont fall for it, its all fairy dust. 

Put your votes and your work into a party that actually has a chance of forming a Government. 

Dont waste it on meaningless protest votes  especially if that means that a party that you like even less than the one you are protesting against might win instead.
		
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Phew, by the time I reached the end I thought you were going to sign off as; "Rattled".

UKIP are a fact of life, they are novel, Mr Farage is entertaining, he tells jokes, he laughts and generates a jolly atmosphere around him. 

Likes his pint and I rather like his yellow cords.

Seemingly so do the ladies, indeed I have been told they like the 'general presentation'.


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## Twinkley Lights (15 May 2013)

happyhunter123 said:





Twinkley Lights said:



			Impossible in regards to Brown? I can sort of see....

But still Miliband seems to have all the charisma and leadership skills of a turnip. 

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Better than the worm in the turnip  yes I meant Brown 

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## JanetGeorge (15 May 2013)

Judgemental said:



			Phew, by the time I reached the end I thought you were going to sign off as; "Rattled".

UKIP are a fact of life, they are novel, Mr Farage is entertaining, he tells jokes, he laughts and generates a jolly atmosphere around him. 

Likes his pint and I rather like his yellow cords.

Seemingly so do the ladies, indeed I have been told they like the 'general presentation'.
		
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It's a good thing Herne replied to this before me because my reply would have been shorter - and rather than sounding 'rattled' I'd probably have been outright rude.

Farage may entertain you - and maybe at a party when I was pi**ed I'd find him amusing.  As a politician, he falls flat on his face and makes some of the Labour MPs look slightly intelligent!  If you want to give up hunting, waste a vote on UKIP!  Otherwise, if you DO care about repeal, help ensure we have a CONSERVATIVE Government with a decent majority next time - it's our ONLY hope!


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## Alec Swan (15 May 2013)

In an ideal world,  which this isn't,  UKIP will give the Conservatives such a fright that they'll move towards us getting out of Europe,  which let's face it would be the only use for UKIP,  and then having done that,  they can govern.

Cameron has decided that we need to re-evaluate our relationship with Europe.  Does he honestly believe that the bulk of this country's voters are that stupid?  We've been promised reform and improvement for over 30 years,  without any improvement,  and in-fact a deepening and worsening situation.  The EU is heading for a huge crash anyway,  so all that we have to do,  is sit and wait,  and then bale out when the seams leak to a greater extent than those who are doing the bailing,  can cope with. 

The UKIP are doing as every other party has done,  making the right noises regarding rural issues,  and as the other parties,  they have no intention of following through with their pledges.  As for allowing regional rural votes,  have they taken leave of their senses?  The void between rural and urban is already at a point where neither cares nor understands the view of the other,  so just how they expect further division to help,  is a mystery.  I'm not too sure how this regional vote would work either,  does it mean for instance,  that we may be able to hunt in Devon,  but not in Essex?

Farage and his party have and are providing one useful service;  they're a wake up call to the other 3 parties.  

Alec.


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## Countryman (15 May 2013)

Farage may entertaining and he may talk some common sense; however, the cold hard fact remains that a vote for him in a General Election is effectively a vote against Repeal.

If you really want the Tories to be rattled, fine get UKIP to win in the coming EU elections, but do not waste your votes on them in the General Election if you want to see Repeal.


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## Judgemental (15 May 2013)

JanetGeorge said:



			It's a good thing Herne replied to this before me because my reply would have been shorter - and rather than sounding 'rattled' I'd probably have been outright rude.

Farage may entertain you - and maybe at a party when I was pi**ed I'd find him amusing.  As a politician, he falls flat on his face and makes some of the Labour MPs look slightly intelligent!  If you want to give up hunting, waste a vote on UKIP!  Otherwise, if you DO care about repeal, help ensure we have a CONSERVATIVE Government with a decent majority next time - it's our ONLY hope!
		
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Well now Mrs George, it's a few moons since we last had a joust and I always enjoy the challenge, especially as I have followed your career path since the mid 70's. True to form you come galloping to the defence of Herne and of course I too know the identity of Herne, so his piece is par for the course. But as Alec has said, UKIP is a wake up call.

However the one thing I will never do is tell folk how to vote and I do have to timidly suggest you are pushing boundaries.

That said, don't underestimate the British voting public, they are bored with the mainstream parties, UKIP provides a means to express their frustration with the 'same old rhetoric'. 

Frankly I don't think Call-Me-Dave will lead the Tories come the general election. Although I seem to recollect reading something in possibly the Mail (OMG he reads the mail!) Simon Heffer thought that there could be an election in July. In which case it will be difficult for 'second horses' to have been brought on.   

No in my humble opinion, I would rule nothing out and nothing in. My fellow Britons (Americans has more of a ring about it i.e. 'Fellow Americans' that is) are just in the mood to kick over the traces and throw the trap in the ditch.  

Call-Me-Dave has to become more Farage than Farage. 

The more folk say a vote for UKIP is a waste or an open door for Labour, the more folk are going to go down the road with them.

Finally Call-Me-Dave has no intention of repealing even with a majority. He might tinker, perhaps there is a hope, my personal 'wish list' hope that there is a chance that someone with some imagination might use the Statutory Instrument.

I will leave it there and anticipate, enter stage right, perhaps - Herne. Perish the thought I should suggest enter stage left  That may be presumptious of me however the mention of the Statutory Instrument normally causes him to break cover.


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## Countryman (15 May 2013)

JM, I must admit I don't really understand why you doubt a Conservative Majority government would repeal the ban. 

The vast majority of Tory MP's, both rural and urban, back repeal; the ones that do not can literally be counted on the fingers of your hands. 

Most of these MP's sympathise with the countryside, hunts and hunting and instinctively feel repeal is important. 

Furthermore, we then have a great number of farming and landowner MP's who are equally determined to see repeal, including Jim Paice, Richard Benyon etc.

Our DEFRA minister Owen Paterson was a keen hunter.

Cameron has ridden with several hunts and as we know he is a country boy at heart. 

Simon Hart was head of the CA and an amateur Huntsman.

Nick Herbert, until recently Police minister, founded a new pack of Beagles and was a Joint-Master for many years.

Edward Garnier, the Solicitor General headed up the Repeal Comittee.

Lord Mancroft and Viscount Astor, both Tory Peers, both Chairmen of Foxhound packs. 

All of the above will fight tooth and nail to ensure the ban is eventually repealed.

HOWEVER the vast majority of Tory MP's, Peers and supporters have a natural affinity for Hunting and so will be keen for repeal of the Hunting Act.

The Antis are petrified about a Tory Majority, they poured millions into trying to prevent it happening in 2010, because they know the Conservatives want Repeal.


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## Judgemental (15 May 2013)

Countryman said:



			JM, I must admit I don't really understand why you doubt a Conservative Majority government would repeal the ban. 

The vast majority of Tory MP's, both rural and urban, back repeal; the ones that do not can literally be counted on the fingers of your hands. 

Most of these MP's sympathise with the countryside, hunts and hunting and instinctively feel repeal is important. 

Furthermore, we then have a great number of farming and landowner MP's who are equally determined to see repeal, including Jim Paice, Richard Benyon etc.

Our DEFRA minister Owen Paterson was a keen hunter.

Cameron has ridden with several hunts and as we know he is a country boy at heart. 

Simon Hart was head of the CA and an amateur Huntsman.

Nick Herbert, until recently Police minister, founded a new pack of Beagles and was a Joint-Master for many years.

Edward Garnier, the Solicitor General headed up the Repeal Comittee.

Lord Mancroft and Viscount Astor, both Tory Peers, both Chairmen of Foxhound packs. 

All of the above will fight tooth and nail to ensure the ban is eventually repealed.

HOWEVER the vast majority of Tory MP's, Peers and supporters have a natural affinity for Hunting and so will be keen for repeal of the Hunting Act.

The Antis are petrified about a Tory Majority, they poured millions into trying to prevent it happening in 2010, because they know the Conservatives want Repeal.
		
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Countryman, I don't disagree with a word you have said.

However Hunting with hounds of live quarry has become a criminal offence.

If there is any sort of a repeal, there will be civil disorder by those opposed to hunting at every hunt meet and hunt up and down the country.

No government will take the risk of the consequences of an all out repeal to return the staus quo as to pre 2004. It would not surprise me if the Police said, "we really don't want the bother and hassel".


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## Countryman (15 May 2013)

JM, you raise an extremely interesting point, which really belongs in another thread, but it is that very issue of if we get repeal, what can be done to prevent popular opinion going against hunting and protests etc. Some might say nothing needs be done-pointing to falling Anti funds and supporters in the last 20 years, and rising in public support for hunting, while others have got plans for the Hunting Regulatory Body, Lord Donohughes Cruelty Bill (which might be a handy way to repeal the ban) and indeed the mythical draft of a law many sabs and monitors seem to believe exists which will prevent them from even observing Hunts, post repeal.


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## Alec Swan (15 May 2013)

Judgemental said:



			.......

If there is any sort of a repeal, there will be civil disorder by those opposed to hunting at every hunt meet and hunt up and down the country.

.......
		
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"Civil Disorder"?  Are you suggesting rioting hordes and looting and pillaging?  The reality J_M,  is that there are very few operational activists,  of course they'll demonstrate and be a pain in the arse,  but I'd suggest that they'd have little in the way of credibility,  and with the number of packs which still exist,  I'd suggest that they'd be spread a bit thin!

The real question is just how those who hunt achieve assurances from those who we vote in to parliament,  that they will take a meaningful stance against an injustice,  and correct the wrong.  There needs to be a concentrated effort to bring pressure to bear upon our public servants.

In the unlikely event that UKIP gained a majority,  they'd be far to busy extricating us from Europe,  to bother with such triflings as a bunch of straw chewing yokels.  No political party that I'm aware of,  has ever reversed a major political decision of a previous government,  and Labour will be no different.  It would be better for the Conservatives to have rebellion within their ranks,  remove us from the lunacy of the EU,  and to reinstate our rights;  two birds with one stone,  so to speak! 

Alec.


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## flyingfeet (16 May 2013)

I'm voting UKIP, because I want out of Europe - they haven't signed off a single set of accounts in 18 years!!!! 

So we give them lots of money, it goes into a black hole and they are less accountable than our own dodgy MP's that we at least get to vote in 

Plus I like UKIP's simplification of the tax system - it should be one fair rate for all. The current increasing burden system just encourages the uber rich to offshore it and pay nothing. When you are paid £5m like bankers, would you want to hand £2.5m over to the government or employ accountants and pay far less???


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## KautoStar1 (16 May 2013)

VOTE UKIP ???  are you insane JM ????


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## Judgemental (16 May 2013)

Clearly my point has not been fully understood and the subtlety thereof.

There is no way UKIP are ever going to command a majority in the H of C, indeed if they even muster a dozen MPs, if any will be most surprising.

However they will take a large number of Conservative voters with them at any General Election.

As a consequence Call-Me-Dave and Co have to recognise the very real haemorrhaging of votes, which will let Milly and Co in the door with a large majority.

But Call-Me-Dave and Co have two years in which to address the Hunting issue to a greater or lesser extent, using the mechanism of the Statutory Instrument.

It's very simple, The Secretary of State places before the H of C amendments &#8211; NOW. I emphasis NOW. TODAY, nothing like the present.

Whether or not the amendments are passed or successful is neither here nor there, at least Call-Me-Dave and Co can say to the rank and file, we tried.

Those of the Repeal or Nothing camp are a wholly lost and wasted cause. A nice pipe dream.

Last night's vote concerning the failure to incorporate the vote on a referendum on Europe in the Gracious Speech, tells all concerned that they are in trouble. Farage has made his point.

However a move using the Statutory Instrument on the Hunting Act now will be seen as a tangible action to combat the Farage bandwagon.

Farage will promise anything and everything and knows he does not have to deliver. 

The rank and file of hunting will in many cases be seduced by Farage at a General Election, largely due to inaction todate. Coupled to his image in his cords, very nice tweed jackets and coats. Rydale Yorkshire cap (well it might not be Rydale nevertheless of type) and the jolly pint in the local. The old BFSS tie.      

Yes I know it's a Coalition but for reasons that are simply too complex to describe here, I think the Libdems will say, &#8220;oh anything for a quiet life, we might get one of our sacred cows in return if we support a minor amendment to the Hunting Act under the Statutory Instrument and of course our core vote in the west will recognise that&#8221;. In the West Country that will have more of an impact than might appear on the surface.

Herne, tactics tactics, perhaps I should come an run the show!


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## JanetGeorge (16 May 2013)

Judgemental said:



			Well now Mrs George, it's a few moons since we last had a joust and I always enjoy the challenge, especially as I have followed your career path since the mid 70's. True to form you come galloping to the defence of Herne and of course I too know the identity of Herne, so his piece is par for the course. But as Alec has said, UKIP is a wake up call.

However the one thing I will never do is tell folk how to vote and I do have to timidly suggest you are pushing boundaries.
		
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How on earth did you manage that - I wasn't even IN the UK in the '70s!!  My 'career path' in the UK would have been totally invisible until the early '90s!  

Herne doesn't NEED my defence - he's about the only other person on this forum who actually understands how politics WORK!  And no - UKIP ISN'T a wake-up call - when people like that brain-dead female Tory say SHE wants to join them - hell - that puts them even further down in my estimation!  

Yes - I'll push boundaries when so much rubbish is talked.  IF people really want repeal, then a Tory Government with a decent majority is the ONLY way it can happen!  If they don't care too much, then it doesn't matter (to hunting) which party gets in!


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## Judgemental (16 May 2013)

JanetGeorge said:



			How on earth did you manage that - I wasn't even IN the UK in the '70s!!  My 'career path' in the UK would have been totally invisible until the early '90s! The error is mine due to having seen you in full cry for the BFSS whenever, you became hot branded on my aging memory bank. Nevertheless you have been about for a while? 
Herne doesn't NEED my defence - he's about the only other person on this forum who actually understands how politics WORK!  Oh Mrs George how could you. Nothing changes, "Dear boy, don't worry about a thing, we have good chaps dealing with 'it' ". Quiet word in the right ear over a Gin and French. Nobody else on this board understands the politics of hunting - oh really. The refrain I have heard so many times, all my life, it makes me want to weep.   And no - UKIP ISN'T a wake-up call - when people like that brain-dead female Tory say SHE wants to join them - hell - that puts them even further down in my estimation! On yes it is and if you are referring to the very attractive Nadine Dorries, who has earnt the displeasure of Call-Me-Dave. Jeff Wells in the Western Daily Press today, said she had been "slapped down". By Call-Me-Dave because she wants to join UKIP.     

Yes - I'll push boundaries when so much rubbish is talked.  IF people really want repeal, then a Tory Government with a decent majority is the ONLY way it can happen! The likelyhood of that happening is very remote. If they don't care too much, then it doesn't matter (to hunting) which party gets in!
		
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KEEP CALM AND CARRY ON WITH THE STATUTORY INSTRUMENT


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## Alec Swan (16 May 2013)

J_M,

_"By Call-Me-Dave because she wants to join UKIP."_

Nadine Dorries,  last night,  TWICE corrected channel 4,  when she said that joining UKIP _could_ be an option for the future.  She flatly denied saying that she wanted to.

Alec.


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## madmav (16 May 2013)

For FS, don't talk up that flaming idiot Farage. I quite liked him when he was a figure of fun, but oh my days, he is not to be taken seriously as a political contender.


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## Judgemental (16 May 2013)

madmav said:



			For FS, don't talk up that flaming idiot Farage. I quite liked him when he was a figure of fun, but oh my days, he is not to be taken seriously as a political contender.
		
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Personally I have a wholly bipartisan view. 

However in my assesment Mr Farage and his party UKIP are the most potent political force since WWII.

They will fundamentally distort the voting patterns and whilst their ability to send MPs to Parliament is still in doubt, they will take many votes from the Conservatives and will provide Mr Miliband with the key to Downing Street.


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## Herne (17 May 2013)

Judgemental said:



			I will leave it there and anticipate, enter stage right, perhaps - Herne. Perish the thought I should suggest enter stage left  That may be presumptious of me however the mention of the Statutory Instrument normally causes him to break cover.
		
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JM, my problem has never been with the Statutory Instrument - it has always been with your misinterpretation of what can be done with it. You keep on referring to amending all sorts of aspects of the Act with it, whereas in fact, as I have been telling you for the past several years, the only thing that it can used for is to vary the exempt clauses contained within in the schedule.


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## Judgemental (18 May 2013)

Herne said:



			JM, my problem has never been with the Statutory Instrument - it has always been with your misinterpretation of what can be done with it. You keep on referring to amending all sorts of aspects of the Act with it, whereas in fact, as I have been telling you for the past several years, the only thing that it can used for is to vary the exempt clauses contained within in the schedule.
		
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Yes I quite agree Herne that you have been peddling this fudge and fog as to the use of the Statutory Instrument for a number of years and frankly you are talking complete and utter rubbish.

The Statutory Instrument can be used by the Secretary of State for any purpose in the Hunting Act 2004.

You and others have done a great job 'holding the covert up'. But you have all now run out of road and instead of this drivel about Repeal or Nothing, go for the Statutory Instrument.

The Tories will never command a majority in the H of C and UKIP have effectively become their outright nemesis.

For the record, yet again the Act states, as follows. I challange you to tell me where the Statutory Instrument only applies to Exempt Hunting. It a very convienient and misguided 'excuse' to keep peddling Repeal or Nothing.

*Subordinate legislation

An order of the Secretary of State under this Act&#8212;

(a)shall be made by statutory instrument,

(b)may not be made unless a draft has been laid before and approved by resolution of each House of Parliament,

(c)may make provision which applies generally or only in specified circumstances or for specified purposes,

(d)may make different provision for different circumstances or purposes, and

(e)may make transitional, consequential and incidental provision.*


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## CracklinRosie (18 May 2013)

Judgemental said:



			However in my assesment Mr Farage and his party UKIP are the most potent political force since WWII.
.
		
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Yes, in an entirely hitleresque way! A UKIP government would make me vote for Scottish independence!


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## MotherOfChickens (19 May 2013)

CracklinRosie said:



			Yes, in an entirely hitleresque way! A UKIP government would make me vote for Scottish independence!
		
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me too, and I'm not for Independence!


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## Judgemental (19 May 2013)

CracklinRosie said:



			Yes, in an entirely hitleresque way! A UKIP government would make me vote for Scottish independence!
		
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The sudden popularity of a contemporary political party that is not in power, is normally a direct reflection upon the party or parties in power and the overall dissatisfaction with them by the electorate.


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## Alec Swan (19 May 2013)

Judgemental said:



			The sudden popularity of a contemporary political party that is not in power, is normally a direct reflection upon the party or parties in power and the overall dissatisfaction with them by the electorate.
		
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Correct,  and how political parties,  being as aware as they are of public opinion,  and failing to make any attempt to rectify such dire disdain,  is beyond me.

Alec.


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## CracklinRosie (19 May 2013)

Judgemental said:



			The sudden popularity of a contemporary political party that is not in power, is normally a direct reflection upon the party or parties in power and the overall dissatisfaction with them by the electorate.
		
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Contemporary, more like Draconian! Not to mention that their figures do not stand up to scrutiny! Just like any other political party, they will promise the earth and deliver misery!


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## oakash (19 May 2013)

Well, I've enjoyed reading this forum; but I am a little surprised that no-one has mentioned the obvious truth behind the UKIP debate. It seems very unlikely that Labour would get into power again: lets face it, in broad terms the British public are surely not THAT stupid?
What on earth makes pro-europe people think that we need Brussells bureaucrats to rule us? Historically, it has taken us nigh on a thousand years to become independent, after all. All this talk about tactical voting is the sort of politics that has made many of us despair of polititians as a bunch of crooks. If you believe in something, then vote for it. I believe UKIP will be able to take sufficient support away from the Conservatives so that their only option will be to go into coalition with them - in that case we will get the Repeal we want. Remember UKIP was initially just a pressure group, and if the Tories do what they promised then we will also come out of our disastrous association with the EU, and be able to make our own laws for the benefit of the people of this country.


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## Alec Swan (19 May 2013)

oakash said:



			....... It seems very unlikely that Labour would get into power again: lets face it, in broad terms the British public are surely not THAT stupid?
........
		
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I wouldn't bank on it. 

I'll make a prediction.  The Conservatives will poach the UKIP voters,  promise a referendum,  or complete removal from the EU,  just for the sake of the votes,  then they'll do as they,  and Labour,  and for all we know UKIP would do,  and renege on any previous promises,  and then in 10 years time,  we'll be exactly where we are now,  with an EU which has been promising reform since inception,  with politicians finding ever more plausible reasons for their lethargy,  and I'll be in a home for the bewildered. 

What we need is a revolution,  a proper one,  not one of these "Would you mind awfully" style of revolt,  but an "Off with their heads" one.  That's how the French sorted out the parasitic element of their Society. 

Alec.


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## Spook (19 May 2013)

Or a renaisance, something more positive and artistic? or are we in such a financial mess that this is impossible?.... In that case is a revolution is inevitable?.


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## VoR (22 May 2013)

Have we not ALL seen small parties (and the LibDems from time-to-time), punching well above their weight in local elections, shouting their emergence as 'real contenders for government' or at the very least as 'a real alternative to the 'big-two'', only to disappear at the general elections? The local elections have registered the protest vote against the political direction the country has gone in and hopefully woken up the Conservatives.

The biggest danger we face is that UKIP split the Conservative vote in a general election and purely through a protest we end up, by default, with a Labour government again..............scares the hell out of me!


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## Alec Swan (23 May 2013)

Which ever party gets in step with public opinion,  will be the one most likely to succeed.  It sounds rather obvious,  doesn't it? 

Alec.


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## Herne (5 March 2014)

Judgemental said:



			Yes I quite agree Herne that you have been peddling this fudge and fog as to the use of the Statutory Instrument for a number of years and frankly you are talking complete and utter rubbish.

The Statutory Instrument can be used by the Secretary of State for any purpose in the Hunting Act 2004.

For the record, yet again the Act states, as follows. I challange you to tell me where the Statutory Instrument only applies to Exempt Hunting. It a very convienient and misguided 'excuse' to keep peddling Repeal or Nothing.

*Subordinate legislation

An order of the Secretary of State under this Act

(a)shall be made by statutory instrument,

(b)may not be made unless a draft has been laid before and approved by resolution of each House of Parliament,

(c)may make provision which applies generally or only in specified circumstances or for specified purposes,

(d)may make different provision for different circumstances or purposes, and

(e)may make transitional, consequential and incidental provision.*

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Sigh. JM, I have told you this many times before and I will now do so again.

The bit that you have quoted comes from Part 3, Clause 14.

The relevant clause that tells you _where the Statutory Instrument only applies to Exempt Hunting_ is in Part 1, Clause 2 (2).

And I quote: *The Secretary of State may by order amend Schedule 1 so as to vary a class of exempt hunting.* (My underlining)

So, Clause 2(2) says *WHAT* the SoS can do by order. Clause 14 sets out *HOW* the order can be implemented.

As I have pointed out to you before, if your interpretation of Clause 14 were correct, then Clause 2(2) would be pointless. 

Why would Clause 2(2) specify that he could vary a specific bit if Clause 14 then said that he could vary any of it? That would not make sense.

What do you think that Clause 2(2) means or is for under your definition?


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## Isbister (5 March 2014)

As has been pointed out in various posts, the most UKIP can hope to achieve - regardless of how attractive some of their policies might appear - is to split the Conservative vote. At the moment, opinion polls suggest that Labour will win the next election. That alone ought to be the focus of concern of those (that includes me) who wish to preserve some semblance of proper hunting in this country. The current law is far from ideal but is preferable to the situation that will prevail under an incoming Labour government.


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## Judgemental (20 March 2014)

I have been studying the leader of the party and I wonder if he has a case of Strabismus? In which case one wonders if his political intentions are in two different directions?


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## Isbister (20 March 2014)

Judgemental said:



			I have been studying the leader of the party and I wonder if he has a case of Strabismus? In which case one wonders if his political intentions are in two different directions?
		
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I've absolutely no idea what Strabismus might be, but it sounds both painful and somehow acutely embarrassing - Mr Farage, I feel very sorry for you.


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## Judgemental (20 March 2014)

Isbister said:



			I've absolutely no idea what Strabismus might be, but it sounds both painful and somehow acutely embarrassing - Mr Farage, I feel very sorry for you.
		
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Stabismus is where one's eyes point in different directions.


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## Isbister (20 March 2014)

Judgemental said:



			Stabismus is where one's eyes point in different directions.
		
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So he's really a political chameleon, then?


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## marianne1981 (21 March 2014)

As an honest question... do you seriously think (with all due respect) that you have any hope of repeal, regardless of political party?


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## Isbister (21 March 2014)

marianne1981 said:



			As an honest question... do you seriously think (with all due respect) that you have any hope of repeal, regardless of political party?
		
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No. UKIP haven't a cat in hell's chance, and the Conservatives don't care, so who else is there?

My personal view is that it would be wrong to make repeal a big issue again because all that would do would be to stir up the antis. One good thing (perhaps the only good thing) about the Hunting Act was that it took some of the heat out of the situation and the anti lobby moved on to other matters. Things have blown over and settled down a bit now and people have a choice of living with the law, imperfect as it is, or of quietly overlooking its more unreasonable requirements. Not that I am advocating breaking the law, mind.


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## Judgemental (21 March 2014)

marianne1981 said:



			As an honest question... do you seriously think (with all due respect) that you have any hope of repeal, regardless of political party?
		
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If a repeal took place or partial repeal took place, I personally would not want to be anywhere near any pack of hounds. The reason, it will become a 'battlefield' between Antis, the Hunt and it's staff/followers, coupled to the Police seperating one side from the other.

That said, the so called Hunt Monitors who are stilll causing a great deal of trouble on any given hunting day, for those lawfully hunting a trail, up and down the country and have to be curbed. Their interference is unwarranted and should be made a criminal offence, as to harrasement and stalking.

The law needs to be more fairly balanced.

Until that happens there will be constant calls for repeal.


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## ester (21 March 2014)

No one is going to win an election based on a promise to repeal the hunting act, it wouldn't be nationally popular if a party in power did repeal it either and I think it is old news to many so can't see an in power party wanting to upset the applecart.


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## Judgemental (21 March 2014)

ester said:



			No one is going to win an election based on a promise to repeal the hunting act, it wouldn't be nationally popular if a party in power did repeal it either and I think it is old news to many so can't see an in power party wanting to upset the applecart.
		
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I believe the current flurry of activity is due to the fact, we are only a year away from a General Election. The Conservatives have been told by various large traditional doners that their 'giving' is conditional upon a repeal.


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## nikCscott (2 April 2014)

Twinkley Lights said:



			I would hope that after their p poor economic performance that Labour would be unelectable for generations to come. I'm undecided on the others. Lets hope we actually have proper policy debates and manefestos unlike last time.
		
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I agree completely with the above - and lets not forget it was Labour who banned hunting to begin with.

UKIP- although I support the points system for immigration, their attitude in other areas i find un-exceptable- so they'll have to sort that before I could ever vote for them. Yes we want hunting but not at the expense of progress in other areas.


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## Maesfen (2 April 2014)

I seem to remember years ago when anyone who voted Liberal was judged to have given a vote to another party and look where they've ended up.


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## Isbister (2 April 2014)

Maesfen said:



			I seem to remember years ago when anyone who voted Liberal was judged to have given a vote to another party and *look where they've ended up*.
		
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Despised.


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## Herne (4 April 2014)

Maesfen said:



			I seem to remember years ago when anyone who voted Liberal was judged to have given a vote to another party and look where they've ended up.
		
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The only people the fact that the Libs are in coalition has benefited are the  Liberal politicians themselves - some of whom are getting an unexpected taste of power, for which they are happily selling most of their "liberal" principles down the line. 

It certainly hasn't benefited those people who _voted_ Liberal, because they have still got a mostly Conservative Government with a mostly Conservative set of policies - just as predicted...


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## ribbons (25 April 2014)

Do you know, this idea that UKIP haven't got a cat in hell's chance of a majority vote is beginning to look a bit thin. 
They seem to be gaining popularity in leaps and bounds.
Never underestimate the british public. There are thousands and thousands who haven't voted at all for years. Suddenly they are energised again. UKIP has done that.
2015 could be very interesting.


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## LaMooch (25 April 2014)

ribbons said:



			Do you know, this idea that UKIP haven't got a cat in hell's chance of a majority vote is beginning to look a bit thin. 
They seem to be gaining popularity in leaps and bounds.
Never underestimate the british public. There are thousands and thousands who haven't voted at all for years. Suddenly they are energised again. UKIP has done that.
2015 could be very interesting.
		
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Fully agree with this


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## NinjaPony (25 April 2014)

I cannot stand UKIP. The people in that party have proven themselves over and over to be frankly racist or bigoted. Farage can keep kicking them out but the fact they keep popping up is very concerning to me. Farage paints himself as a "new politician" but he is using the same old tricks as all the rest- take their new campaign posters for example. "26 million people in the EU, and whose jobs are they after?"- sensationalist, xenophobic propaganda. He is a member of the EU Parliament, receives a lovely fat paycheck and doesn't turn up to any sessions whatsoever, thus neglecting his duty, plus he's been accused of fiddling his expenses. That's not who I want running the country. I actually heard the deputy speak at a conference- I study politics- and was somewhat horrified to find out that he was kicked out of Parliament as a Tory MP for accepting bribes. That's not who I want running the country. As far as I'm concerned they are a one trick party, full of big blustering ideas about the EU, who want to turn back the clock to a more racist Britain. No thank you.
Concerning the Hunting Act, which I have no strong views on whatsoever as someone who doesn't hunt, I don't think any party will want to tackle the issue. There is not enough strong public support to make it a pressing concern...


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## Judgemental (26 April 2014)

ribbons said:



			Never underestimate the british public. There are thousands and thousands who haven't voted at all for years. Suddenly they are energised again. UKIP has done that.
2015 could be very interesting.
		
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Ribbons you have hit the nail on the head with massive accuracy. I believe Winston Churchhill said something similar when he lost the General Election immediately after the end of WWII.


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## Alec Swan (26 April 2014)

ribbons said:



			Do you know, this idea that UKIP haven't got a cat in hell's chance of a majority vote is beginning to look a bit thin. 
They seem to be gaining popularity in leaps and bounds.
Never underestimate the british public. There are thousands and thousands who haven't voted at all for years. Suddenly they are energised again. UKIP has done that.
2015 could be very interesting.
		
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I'm all for leaving the EU.  We joined The Common Market.  We didn't join a fragmented United States of Europe,  to be administered too by those who wont have our best interests at heart.

As you rightly say,  UKIP have touched a chord amongst many who either previously didn't vote (one here),  or were generally so apathetic about and mistrustful of our system,  that they simply couldn't care less.

I don't believe that UKIP will gain any form of majority at the next election.  The only reason why they appear to be,  as you say "Energising" many who previously didn't bother is because the two major parties STILL refuse to take the wishes of many,  seriously.  Before the next GE,  I suspect that those parliamentarians, who are currently so dismissive of them,  will be taking the threat more seriously and closer to the date.

Farage is an impassioned and incredibly powerful speaker.  He has a persona which deluges those who take him on in debate,  and it's Farage as a man,  as well as the UKIP policies which are currently supplying the apparent buoyancy.  Whilst we are all quite certain of the UKIP policy on Europe,  I wonder how many of us can quote their other policies,  I wonder how many of us are aware of the policies on Defence,  or Education or Health or Agriculture.  I'm certainly not,  and to be quite truthful,  neither I suspect,  are UKIP!

I don't believe that any political party has the will to repeal the Hunting Ban.  Placating minority,  though none the less,  vociferous splinter groups,  is all about vote gathering,  "Casting bread upon the waters......" sort of thing.

I don't believe one single word that ever issues from the mouth of any politician,  and that includes UKIP,  and it wouldn't surprise me to find,  that in the unlikely event that UKIP win a majority,  then three years after the election,  we are still members of the bloody EU!!

Alec.


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## Isbister (26 April 2014)

I too would like to see the whole sinister EU scheme unravel. It is fast becoming the incarnation of everything Adolf Hitler attempted to achieve by more straightforward means. Nothing flies without approval from Berlin.

I still believe that UKIP have no chance of winning the general election, and a vote for them then could prove disastrously counterproductive, but they may well achieve some form of upset in the European elections. I for one shall vote for them then, but will have to wait and see what I do in the general elections. I'm hoping UKIP success in the European elections will at least ginger up the other parties.


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## ribbons (26 April 2014)

You could well be right Alec.
I'm not so sure.
I do think though that it is the man more than the party that is so popular. He is brilliant at drawing people in. He has charisma, and says what many people want to hear, in a way that is believable. What he says is what he thinks, the words are his own, not a team of spinners writing for him.
People seem to trust and admire him. Should that be deserved, time will tell.
Would UKIP be as popular without Nigel Farage, probably not, and they know that, which of course is why he is the leader.
Given the ridiculous puppets/muppets leading the other parties, he is a breath of fresh air.
On the subject of the rest of their policies, its not difficult to find out where they stand.


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## Countryman (27 April 2014)

Isbister said:



			I still believe that UKIP have no chance of winning the general election, and a vote for them then could prove disastrously counterproductive, but they may well achieve some form of upset in the European elections. I for one shall vote for them then, but will have to wait and see what I do in the general elections. I'm hoping UKIP success in the European elections will at least ginger up the other parties.
		
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This is very true-people should vote for UKIP all they like in the EU elections, but when it comes to 2015, anyone desiring a Conservative or pro-repeal or indeed any other kind of government other than Ed Miliband must vote Conservative for them to have a chance of winning. They will need every vote they can get. He system is already so biased against them that if the Conservatives win 10 million Votes and Labour 8 million (similar to what happened in 2010) the Conservatives win 306/650 seats - 20 seats short of a majority, while if the opposite happened and Labour win 10 million votes and the Conservatives 8 million, Labour win a massive 87 seat majority with 413 seats out of 650 (as happened in 2001, and it was with this massive majority that Blair was able to ban hunting).


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## TigerTail (28 April 2014)

Im with Countryman 

Ideally Id vote UKIP loudly and proudly - however I do NOT ever want to see Labour get back in. They wrecked the financially stable country they were handed by MT and for those of us in our mid 20's and down have p!ssed our careers and ability to get on the property market away.

Id love the UKIP to take a stance on capping building in the UK - there won't be any land left at all if Labour get back in - who will let all ad sundry in as it secures them more voters and then need to house them somewhere.

So whilst my heart is firmly with UKIP Il vote conservative- and I don't think they have done a bad job despite being ham stringed by the LD's.


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## Houndman (28 April 2014)

I'll be voting UKIP for the Euro elections.  What happens in 2015 I will decide nearer the time.

Interesting idea that if Scottish devolution ever occurs, then Labour will lose a massive number of seats, which is of course one of the main reasons they are opposing it.


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