# Chemical castration



## rowan666 (9 December 2016)

Anybody tried this?
 I've been looking into it as I'm reluctant to put my lad through GA, he doesn't display any unwanted behaviour and is never off the lead in public so he doesn't actually need to have his balls lopped off but he will never be bred from so its just something i've mulled over. There seems to be a minefield of conflicting advice though, my boy weighs in at nearly 70kg now, whopping huge mastiff and no he's not overweight just seems to never stop bloody growing despite being 4yrs old in March (hence why I haven't already done anything about it). If chemical castration isn't a viable option then he won't be going under the knife.


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## druid (9 December 2016)

Do consider the increased risk of testicular and prostate cancers if left intact vs the risk of GA.


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## Moobli (10 December 2016)

If there is no reason to castrate him then I would leave him entire.   

I had a friend who tried the Suprelorin implant in her GSD to see if it would lessen his aggression towards other males and it did seem to help (and with no side effects), so she then went ahead and had him neutered.


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## Leo Walker (10 December 2016)

Theres a big long post from me somewhere on here. My whippet had it. It served the purpose I wanted it for, which was to see if he was just a little git or if there was a hormonal element. Its not something I would do just in case though.


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## Moobli (10 December 2016)

It is also something I might consider for my entire male GSD if my husband decides not to spay his working collie bitch, because he is a nightmare when she is in season (like right now!).  

You can get either a 6 month or 12 month implant.

http://www.virbac.co.uk/suprelorin


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## Tiddlypom (10 December 2016)

WorkingGSD said:



			You can get either a 6 month or 12 month implant.

http://www.virbac.co.uk/suprelorin

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That's interesting. The JRT had the suprelorin implant at age 8 or 9 yrs, I wasn't offered a choice of length of efficacy but was told it would last 6 months. It worked very well at calming him down and lasted for 2 years +.

New folk had moved in over the road with several entire bitches, he was very randy and unsettled until the implant.


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## jumbyjack (10 December 2016)

I had chemical castration done for my GS x Springer who was a very nervous fear biter, it worked brilliantly so followed it up with surgery. That didn't work at all, his behaviour went back to post implant immediately. Was very odd, vet flummoxed!


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## Leo Walker (10 December 2016)

I wasnt offered a choice of length either, but it definitely lasted well over a year


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## Snowy Celandine (10 December 2016)

Can I ask why those of you who have not opted for castration as the first option wish your dogs to remain entire? Are you intending to breed from them in the future or is it a personal preference and, if so, on what is it based? I believe that many dogs in less affluent areas of the country are not castrated and I always assumed it was due either to cost or a wish to live vicariously through one's dog somehow, urgh!!


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## Moobli (10 December 2016)

I make a neutering decision based on the dog as a mature adult - and am neither pro neuter nor pro entire - it depends on the individual dog for me.

I currently have three dogs - two are entire and one is neutered.  I have never had any plans to breed - although my WL GSD is being used at stud twice next year but this was never a factor in my keeping him entire.

There is an abundance of reading on the internet about the pros and cons of neutering, so it is really up to the individual owner to arm themselves with as much information as possible and make a decision based on their own findings and their own dog.  There are health benefits in both cases, and behaviour benefits in either case too, so I don't think it is as simply as saying neuter all or don't neuter at all.

Oh and for me, it has nothing to do with cost or that I wish to live vicariously through my dogs!


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## hobo (10 December 2016)

Why do you think he will die under a GA I would think that is very, very rare. I am a great believer in castration unless it is really important that you want to breed from them. I also think they look much better trotting down the road looking neat and tidy behind.


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## Snowy Celandine (10 December 2016)

"Oh and for me, it has nothing to do with cost or that I wish to live vicariously through my dogs!"

Glad to hear the second part of that sentence as it strikes me as a rather revolting way of seeing your dog!!


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## Moobli (10 December 2016)

druid said:



			Do consider the increased risk of testicular and prostate cancers if left intact vs the risk of GA.
		
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Two significant studies released in 2013 showed that the disease rates for hip dysplasia, cranial cruciate ligament tear, lymphosarcoma, hemangiosarcoma, and mast cell tumour were significantly HIGHER in both males and females that were neutered either early or late, compared with that of sexually intact dogs. Specifically, early neutering was associated with an increase in the occurrence of hip dysplasia, cranial cruciate ligament tear, and lymphosarcoma in males and in the occurrence of cranial cruciate ligament tear in females.

AVMA Journal:
https://www.avma.org/News/JAVMANews/Pages/130401s.aspx

The study report:
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0055937

Another major study (done on Hungarian Vizslas) has shown that, regardless of the age at the time of neutering, altered dogs had "significantly increased odds of developing mast cell cancer, lymphoma, all other cancers, all cancers combined, and fear of storms, compared with the odds for sexually intact dogs."

So food for thought and I don't believe it is as simple a choice as we once all believed it to be.


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## Tiddlypom (10 December 2016)

hobo said:



			I also think they look much better trotting down the road looking neat and tidy behind.
		
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  a proper coffee snort moment!!!


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## Moobli (10 December 2016)

Snowy Celandine said:



			"Oh and for me, it has nothing to do with cost or that I wish to live vicariously through my dogs!"

Glad to hear the second part of that sentence as it strikes me as a rather revolting way of seeing your dog!!
		
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I found the second part of the sentence decidedly odd   I have never even considered that this might be why some people keep their dogs entire!!


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## Snowy Celandine (10 December 2016)

WorkingGSD said:



			I found the second part of the sentence decidedly odd   I have never even considered that this might be why some people keep their dogs entire!!
		
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Really? I thought it was a fairly common interpretation of the situation  I've even heard it expressed on television by the male owners of some of these entire dogs. They honestly seem to regard their dog as an extension of their own body in some weird, unfathomable and entirely grotesque way


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## Moobli (10 December 2016)

Snowy Celandine said:



			Really? I thought it was a fairly common interpretation of the situation  I've even heard it expressed on television by the male owners of some of these entire dogs. They honestly seem to regard their dog as an extension of their own body in some weird, unfathomable and entirely grotesque way 

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Ha ha well that's men for you


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## Snowy Celandine (10 December 2016)

Yup, I bet some of them (not you, obviously!) walk with their legs wide apart for a few days after their dogs have had their bits chopped off, ha ha


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## Moobli (10 December 2016)

Snowy Celandine said:



			Yup, I bet some of them (not you, obviously!) walk with their legs wide apart for a few days after their dogs have had their bits chopped off, ha ha 

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Ha ha especially not me ... I'm not a man!


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## Snowy Celandine (10 December 2016)

WorkingGSD said:



			Ha ha especially not me ... I'm not a man!  

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Oops! Sorry  I don't know why I though you were. I'll get me (dog) coat shall I?


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## Moobli (10 December 2016)

Snowy Celandine said:



			Oops! Sorry  I don't know why I though you were. I'll get me (dog) coat shall I?  

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Ha no I'll let you off, it's an easy mistake to make (just glad you hadn't said the same thing after seeing a photo though  )


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## Snowy Celandine (10 December 2016)

WorkingGSD said:



			Ha no I'll let you off, it's an easy mistake to make (just glad you hadn't said the same thing after seeing a photo though  )
		
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Now that would have been embarrassing ... for both of us


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## druid (10 December 2016)

WorkingGSD said:



			Two significant studies released in 2013 showed that the disease rates for hip dysplasia, cranial cruciate ligament tear, lymphosarcoma, hemangiosarcoma, and mast cell tumour were significantly HIGHER in both males and females that were neutered either early or late, compared with that of sexually intact dogs. Specifically, early neutering was associated with an increase in the occurrence of hip dysplasia, cranial cruciate ligament tear, and lymphosarcoma in males and in the occurrence of cranial cruciate ligament tear in females.

AVMA Journal:
https://www.avma.org/News/JAVMANews/Pages/130401s.aspx

The study report:
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0055937

Another major study (done on Hungarian Vizslas) has shown that, regardless of the age at the time of neutering, altered dogs had "significantly increased odds of developing mast cell cancer, lymphoma, all other cancers, all cancers combined, and fear of storms, compared with the odds for sexually intact dogs."

So food for thought and I don't believe it is as simple a choice as we once all believed it to be.
		
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The studies are in breeds heavily over represented in neoplasia already - something that should also be taken into account... 

I'm not pro or against. I have 2 neutered and 2 entire dogs currently, however I do think fear of a GA isn't a particularly rational way to make the choice.


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## planete (11 December 2016)

There are plenty of good reasons for and against castration but I have a sneaky suspicion that some women prefer not to be reminded of male appendages and find it enough of a justification to  make their dogs undergo a major operation. (runs for cover!)

PS. I am a woman before anybody starts wondering.


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## Leo Walker (11 December 2016)

Snowy Celandine said:



			Can I ask why those of you who have not opted for castration as the first option wish your dogs to remain entire? Are you intending to breed from them in the future or is it a personal preference and, if so, on what is it based? I believe that many dogs in less affluent areas of the country are not castrated and I always assumed it was due either to cost or a wish to live vicariously through one's dog somehow, urgh!!
		
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Why would I castrate my dog unless there was a really good reason to? 

In this particular dogs case there were behavioural quirks that could have been influenced by testosterone, but they could equally have been made dramatically worse by castrating and causing a sudden drop in testosterone. Chemical castration was a compromise. He had it once, we worked with him and he hasnt been a problem since. 

It is absolutely nothing to do with cost. The implant costs the same as castration, and how on earth do you live vicariously through a dog?! I'm sure I must be misunderstanding what you mean there!

Oh, and in this house its my male OH who is pro neutering, and me who is very pro not neutering. He buys into the popular opinion that neutering solves all problems, whereas I know it generally makes them worse


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## twiggy2 (11 December 2016)

planete said:



			There are plenty of good reasons for and against castration but I have a sneaky suspicion that some women prefer not to be reminded of male appendages and find it enough of a justification to  make their dogs undergo a major operation. (runs for cover!)

PS. I am a woman before anybody starts wondering.
		
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I have had both castrated and entire dogs,  I am female and my decisions have nothing to do with dangle bits (or lack of) I just wanted to say castration is not 'a major operation'.
I am happy to leave dogs entire as long as there would be no health or behavioural benefits to castration.
As a dog trainer I do promote the idea of chemical castration for adolescent dogs that have behavioural issues that may be related to a peak in hormones. Reducing the hormones for a period of time whilst addressing the unwanted behaviours can result in a well behaved entire dog that once the injection wears of remains a well behaved/ well balanced dog for life. 
OP I don't understand what benefit you see to chemically/ temporarily castrating a dog with no issues to start with?


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## Clodagh (11 December 2016)

Snowy Celandine said:



			Really? I thought it was a fairly common interpretation of the situation  I've even heard it expressed on television by the male owners of some of these entire dogs. They honestly seem to regard their dog as an extension of their own body in some weird, unfathomable and entirely grotesque way 

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I think it is more anthromorphism. They would hate to have their knackers off and assume dogs think about it in the same way.
We might get a male pup next time and if so he will not be castrated. The only male we have ever had done was a border terrier who bit people, started fights, peed on things and was a vile little dog. We ended up with a vile little dog with all the same behaviours but no balls.


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## CorvusCorax (11 December 2016)

All boy bits present and correct lol.
Would only castrate if it was really causing a problem...healthwise or something that couldn't be corrected by training.

My last dog was done for health reasons and behavioural issues which were mostly corrected through training. When I first got involved in sport he was considered a novelty and I don't think I've come across a castrated dog actively competing since.
Even if my current dog was interested in girls, lol, he's kept in such a way as not to roam or cause nuisance.


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## Snowy Celandine (11 December 2016)

FrankieCob said:



			Why would I castrate my dog unless there was a really good reason to? 

In this particular dogs case there were behavioural quirks that could have been influenced by testosterone, but they could equally have been made dramatically worse by castrating and causing a sudden drop in testosterone. Chemical castration was a compromise. He had it once, we worked with him and he hasnt been a problem since. 

It is absolutely nothing to do with cost. The implant costs the same as castration, and how on earth do you live vicariously through a dog?! I'm sure I must be misunderstanding what you mean there!

Oh, and in this house its my male OH who is pro neutering, and me who is very pro not neutering. He buys into the popular opinion that neutering solves all problems, whereas I know it generally makes them worse
		
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Why would you castrate your dog? I've no idea, only you can answer that question 

I'm sorry that you can't understand my post. I can write it out again but I'm not sure how much more clear I can make it so I apologise for that.

What problems are made worse by neutering? Does neutering also make female animals problems worse? Does this apply to geldings? Neutered tom cats? Can you elaborate please because now it's my turn to be puzzled?


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## Snowy Celandine (11 December 2016)

Clodagh said:



			I think it is more anthromorphism. They would hate to have their knackers off and assume dogs think about it in the same way.
We might get a male pup next time and if so he will not be castrated. The only male we have ever had done was a border terrier who bit people, started fights, peed on things and was a vile little dog. We ended up with a vile little dog with all the same behaviours but no balls.
		
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I agree that is is anthropomorphism  I think it's amusing but some of the men on the television seemed to take their dogs balls as their, er, personal property and were determined to preserve them intact even in the face of evidence from the dog trainer woman that they needed lopping off. Maybe chemical castration would have been more acceptable to those men but it was never mentioned.


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## Clodagh (11 December 2016)

Snowy Celandine said:



			I agree that is is anthropomorphism  I think it's amusing but some of the men on the television seemed to take their dogs balls as their, er, personal property and were determined to preserve them intact even in the face of evidence from the dog trainer woman that they needed lopping off. Maybe chemical castration would have been more acceptable to those men but it was never mentioned.
		
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At least you corrected my spelling.&#9786; I doubt many men would volunteer for chemical castration either! Why they are bothering to develop a male pill for example...


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## Snowy Celandine (11 December 2016)

Clodagh said:



			At least you corrected my spelling.&#9786; I doubt many men would volunteer for chemical castration either! Why they are bothering to develop a male pill for example...
		
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Mm, I don't think male contraceptive pills will ever catch on - too many pitfalls methinks!!


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## Mister Ted (20 December 2016)

From what I have researched as I was thinking about having my dog done leaving him intact can prevent diseases in later life and testosterone is key in protecting him.If prostrate cancer does develop the vet can remove the testicles and the problem is solved.


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## q105 (22 December 2016)

OP. My male pug was castrated due to his ejaculating twice, once while cuddling my OH!
He is brachy, obviously, and the short time he was GAd for the procedure was no problem for him. I hope that helps.


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## rowan666 (22 December 2016)

Mister Ted said:



			From what I have researched as I was thinking about having my dog done leaving him intact can prevent diseases in later life and testosterone is key in protecting him.If prostrate cancer does develop the vet can remove the testicles and the problem is solved.
		
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This was exactly my thinking, as most, I assume will be aware that it would be completely detrimental to a large dogs health to be castrated before fully matured. My dog I'm assuming must now be fully matured at 3 going on 4 but he does not display undesirable qualities that would be fixed by castration so to me the thought of putting him through an operation if a simple injection is an alternative (albeit more costly in the long run) seems an unnecessary risk. My local vet doesn't offer this service and I haven't yet contacted others as I wanted to do my research first as I know many vets in my area will push people into simple castration even on large dogs before they are even a year old which I find highly irresponsible! (If anybody wishes to comment on this then please do your research on growth plates and cascastration in large dogs first) so I want to be sure it's the right choice first


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## rowan666 (22 December 2016)

twiggy2 said:



			OP I don't understand what benefit you see to chemically/ temporarily castrating a dog with no issues to start with?
		
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TBH right now there would be no benefit or reason to reallyhence why I'm in no rush but he is not stud worthy (cross breed) so will never be bred from but I have been toying with the idea of getting another, I only rehome dogs so will only take something that fits with our lifestyle/family and sex is irrelevant, breed however not so much, I do really find larger dogs, specifically mastiff types are much more in my comfort zone so I would hate to have to discount something otherwise perfect because it was the wrong sex and waiting around to have both fitted in for an op would, I imagine be more hassle than it's worth and a risk I wouldn't want to take. I'm very much anti breeding for anyone that isn't a responsible pedigree breeder and to me "it was an accident" isn't really acceptable


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## Clodagh (22 December 2016)

rowan666 said:



			This was exactly my thinking, as most, I assume will be aware that it would be completely detrimental to a large dogs health to be castrated before fully matured. My dog I'm assuming must now be fully matured at 3 going on 4 but he does not display undesirable qualities that would be fixed by castration so to me the thought of putting him through an operation if a simple injection is an alternative (albeit more costly in the long run) seems an unnecessary risk. My local vet doesn't offer this service and I haven't yet contacted others as I wanted to do my research first as I know many vets in my area will push people into simple castration even on large dogs before they are even a year old which I find highly irresponsible! (If anybody wishes to comment on this then please do your research on growth plates and cascastration in large dogs first) so I want to be sure it's the right choice first
		
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I think someone else asked, but why would you chemically castrate at all if he is showing no need for it?


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## rowan666 (22 December 2016)

Clodagh said:



			I think someone else asked, but why would you chemically castrate at all if he is showing no need for it?
		
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Cross posted, answer above lol


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## {97702} (22 December 2016)

I apologise if this is irrelevant, but it brings into mind the man who I met whilst collecting for Greyhound Rescue (standard street collection) - he suddenly started a campaign to support castration of rescue dogs rather than full neutering.  He seemed so average when I was speaking to him when {metaphorically!) shaking my collection tin....

His reason for suggesting this was an emasculation of male dogs... as a female I must admit I never got it, but he lost his case.....


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## Clodagh (22 December 2016)

rowan666 said:



			Cross posted, answer above lol
		
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Lol! Thank you.


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## MotherOfChickens (22 December 2016)

Lévrier;13443959 said:
			
		


			I apologise if this is irrelevant, but it brings into mind the man who I met whilst collecting for Greyhound Rescue (standard street collection) - he suddenly started a campaign to support castration of rescue dogs rather than full neutering.  He seemed so average when I was speaking to him when {metaphorically!) shaking my collection tin....

His reason for suggesting this was an emasculation of male dogs... as a female I must admit I never got it, but he lost his case.....
		
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do you mean vasectomy rather than castration? I don't know about the emasculation of male dogs, but it is a interesting ethical discussion. If all someone wants from castration of their dog is the inability to sire pups and given the problems that can be caused by the lack of testosterone etc why is vasectomy not a more available option? 

I've had this discussion (along with ovariectomy for bitches versus a full spay) before and Aru had some excellent points but purely for removing puppy-making potential castration seems way OTT when there are alternatives imho. just sayin' : ) (and ftr, I've only ever had neutered dogs as an adult)


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## {97702} (22 December 2016)

MotherOfChickens said:



			do you mean vasectomy rather than castration? I don't know about the emasculation of male dogs, but it is a interesting ethical discussion. If all someone wants from castration of their dog is the inability to sire pups and given the problems that can be caused by the lack of testosterone etc why is vasectomy not a more available option? 

I've had this discussion (along with ovariectomy for bitches versus a full spay) before and Aru had some excellent points but purely for removing puppy-making potential castration seems way OTT when there are alternatives imho. just sayin' : ) (and ftr, I've only ever had neutered dogs as an adult)
		
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Yes sorry that was exactly what he advocated - too much wine tonight!  I also cannot recall the argument that the charity put forward for castration V vasectomy but it sounded logical to me as a non-scientist..


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## MotherOfChickens (22 December 2016)

Lévrier;13444006 said:
			
		


			Yes sorry that was exactly what he advocated - too much wine tonight!  I also cannot recall the argument that the charity put forward for castration V vasectomy but it sounded logical to me as a non-scientist..
		
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yes, I expect a charity would-easier, cheaper, more accepted, no chance of any subsequent behavioural issues being attributed to sex hormones etc etc etc.


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## Mister Ted (22 December 2016)

rowan666 said:



			This was exactly my thinking, as most, I assume will be aware that it would be completely detrimental to a large dogs health to be castrated before fully matured. My dog I'm assuming must now be fully matured at 3 going on 4 but he does not display undesirable qualities that would be fixed by castration so to me the thought of putting him through an operation if a simple injection is an alternative (albeit more costly in the long run) seems an unnecessary risk. My local vet doesn't offer this service and I haven't yet contacted others as I wanted to do my research first as I know many vets in my area will push people into simple castration even on large dogs before they are even a year old which I find highly irresponsible! (If anybody wishes to comment on this then please do your research on growth plates and cascastration in large dogs first) so I want to be sure it's the right choice first
		
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I discussed my findings with my vet and surprisingly she was in agreement with me and could not see a reason for uneccessary castration and said if cancer does develop the testicles can be removed then.Also my dog does not have an aggressive nature in fact the complete opposite so I wont get it done.


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