# interchangeable gullets??



## Cliqmo (20 April 2009)

Has anybody any experience of the saddles with interchangeable gullets? 
I *believe* the two major players seem to be Bates and Wintec (are there others I don't know of?)
Are these saddles any good? Are the gullets easy to change? Is all of the novelty in the gullet or are the saddles also well balanced, well made, comfortable etc? 

Opinions please!!


----------



## teddyt (20 April 2009)

Thorowgood/kent and masters also have changeable gullets and IMO they are much better designed saddles. Changing the gullet is one thing but the rest of the saddle must fit too. Thorowgoods fit much better and they do ranges for high withered horses, cobs and standard withers. 
I personally dislike Wintec saddles. I have never seen one fit properly as all the ones i have seen sit up at the back of the saddle off the horses back. IMO the cair system is also very hard.


----------



## hellybelly6 (20 April 2009)

I personally dislike Wintec saddles. I have never seen one fit properly as all the ones i have seen sit up at the back of the saddle off the horses back. IMO the cair system is also very hard. 

[/ QUOTE ]

I second that.

I have a wintec and it fits my horse, but it still tips forward and it tips me forward too.  It is a cair and very hard.


----------



## Cliqmo (20 April 2009)

Ooh thanks TeddyT, I will have a look at them... ha ha OH is reading this over my shoulder and rolling his eyes


----------



## Cliqmo (20 April 2009)

Duly noted thanks highlandponylass! I bought a second hand Ideal saddle some years ago that had been converted to the Cair system and didn't get on with it at all (so I had it converted back 
	
	
		
		
	


	




) I have always assumed the Ideal and Cair are just incompatible but perhaps it is a widespread problem?


----------



## Kallibear (20 April 2009)

Unfortunautly, by design, saddles with interchangable gullets are generally badly balanced. On a particular horse they only balance at one width. Unfortuntly that width may not be the right width fitting for the horse. They also start getting more and more curved as the tree gets wider, which is why the wintecs lift up at the back. 

Bates/wintec saddles (same company: one's leather, one's synthetic) were the first saddles to make changable gullets widely avalible. Sadly they fit very few horses, mainly because they were designed for Australian TB's. The balance and curvature (or spoon ) of the saddle is too curved for most british (wide or fat! 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 ) horses, making the back lift up. And the panels at the back are designed for the sloping loins of TB's, not flat wide horses, so the outside edges dig in. Dangerously, they are marketed as 'fitting all horses' with a simple gullet change 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 and that has cause so many miserable, sore horses 
	
	
		
		
	


	





They are however well made and comfortable to ride in.

Thorowgood saddles have just started making changable gullets (bate's patent ran out!) and are better designed. They have a couple of different tree types and different types of panels (to suit the various different back shapes) and an overall better design. They still don't suit all horses, but there's a better chance one of their many types will suit most horses.


----------



## Kallibear (20 April 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
Duly noted thanks highlandponylass! I bought a second hand Ideal saddle some years ago that had been converted to the Cair system and didn't get on with it at all (so I had it converted back 
	
	
		
		
	


	




) I have always assumed the Ideal and Cair are just incompatible but perhaps it is a widespread problem? 

[/ QUOTE ]

P.s - Cair is only found in Wintec saddles and is closed bags of airaited foam, at atmospheric pressure. You cannot adjust the amount of air in them as the bag is sealed. You're saddle will have had Flair in it - ajustable bags of air. They work totally differently and can work brillaintly if done correctly and the horse likes it. If your air bags were hard, they weren't adjusted correctly! They should be soft.


----------



## Cliqmo (20 April 2009)

All seems like a bit of a minefield!- in all honesty am I better of getting a standard saddle and having the saddler out at six monthly intervals to adjust the flocking?...my gelding is 4yrs and likely to be changing alot of the next few years!


----------



## rosie55 (20 April 2009)

hi, don't be put off Bates saddles. I have one for my quarter horse as he changes shape during the year and so I call out the saddler every 3 months to do a saddle check. so far the gullet has only needed to be changed twice. Bear goes really well in the saddle and my daughter finds it comfortable too. so would recommend it.
also would strongly recommend you get a really good saddler to look at your horse and suggest what is best, afterall a good saddler is worth his/her weight in gold!


----------



## Cliqmo (20 April 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
 Cair is only found in Wintec saddles and is closed bags of airaited foam, at atmospheric pressure. You cannot adjust the amount of air in them as the bag is sealed. You're saddle will have had Flair in it - ajustable bags of air. They work totally differently and can work brillaintly if done correctly and the horse likes it. If your air bags were hard, they weren't adjusted correctly! They should be soft. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Ha ha you're quite right, it was Flair- about 5yrs ago so I had forgotten! Interesting I will have to look up the Cair system as I don't know it at all, LOL.


----------



## smirnoff_ice07 (20 April 2009)

I have a wintec with cair and absolutely love it! It's really comfy to ride in, but i do find it tends to come up at the back sometimes which can be annoying.


----------



## Cliqmo (20 April 2009)

Interesting, thanks Smirnoff_ice. I might put up a new post asking directly about this problem- just to see how widespread it is!


----------



## CBAnglo (21 April 2009)

[ QUOTE ]

I have a wintec and it fits my horse, but it still tips forward and it tips me forward too.  It is a cair and very hard. 

[/ QUOTE ]

It doesnt really fit your horse then.

I have seen Wintecs work well for TBs (around the 16hh mark) and a curious suffolk punch x.  They are designed to fit Australian TB/QHs.  

OP - the best thing to do would be to get a saddler out with a range of saddles to try, including the wintec and thorowgood range, if you are looking for synthetic.  Even if you buy a wintec, it really ought to be fitted by a saddle fitter.


----------



## MillionDollar (21 April 2009)

I have Bates and Wintecs and love them..............and so do the horses!


----------



## Bowen4Horses (21 April 2009)

i LOVE wintec 2000s...


----------



## JessPickle (21 April 2009)

I am a Throwgood saddle fan.  so much confier than the rock hard wintec saddles!


----------



## ihatework (21 April 2009)

Hi,

You are right, the 2 main players are Wintec and Bates. 
Wintecs are obviously the budget market with the Bates competing against the middle market.

Being able to adjust the head plate is always a useful additional feature to any saddle, especially if you have a horse that is maturing or if you use one saddle on a variety of horses. Changing the headplate doesn't gaurentee fit, as you need to take into account the balance of the saddle as well, to that end I think you are better off with flock rather than cair. That said my saddler has said that Bates have really improved the cair in latest models and he will now sell them whereas before he wouldn't.

I don't know what type saddle you are after, but another very new one to the market is one that I have. It's a Pessoa Legacy XP3 jumping saddle, it comes at a price but there is a lot to like about it. It has a changeable gullet system, the panels have a soft foam layer against the horses back with flock above for balance/adjustability.
http://www.pessoasaddles.com/legacyXP3.htm

There are some makes of saddles without changeable gullets that still have good scope for adjusting relatively cheaply, 2 that spring to mind are ideal and barnsby, both can be done by some saddlers or sent back to the factory.


----------



## clopper (21 April 2009)

Hi - I have a wintec isabella werth dressage saddle and love it!  Fits my kwpn (granted she looks like TB) peffectly.

I was never a fan of wintecs - or synthetics for that matter -but as I have a 4yo horse I didn't want to spash out majorly- so after trying many many saddles in the less than £600 category I bought a wintec Werth saddle and am converted.

It's nice to ride in, it's cair and panels are soft.


----------



## CalliChristmasTree (21 April 2009)

Have just bought the 500 wintec dressage saddle and it arrived a few days ago. Have also bought the red-wide changeable gullet (which hasn't arrived yet)
Took the saddle apart the other day, just to have a quick nosey.
Must say the "6 easy simple steps to change to gullet" took me "35 hard minutes of lining up the saddle and screwing the screws in wrong" 
But then again it was my first go!
Have ridden in a wintec before and they arn't as "stiff" as i thought they'd be. Very happy with mine though.
x


----------



## Donkeymad (21 April 2009)

Have to agree with those who dislike Wintecs. They are not well designed for our horses and tend to not fit too well. Thorowgood have had the changeable gullet system for some years now, and are very good saddles. There is also the new leather ranges of Fairfax and Kent &amp; Masters.


----------



## hellybelly6 (21 April 2009)

It fits my horse, but he is a clydesdale x highland and xxxxx wide and I do not think they are designed for the broader equine back.  As somebody interestingly said, the are designed for Australian TBs who will be a bit less narrow than my wide boy.

Thanks Kallibear for your interesting and obviously knowledgable post.  I have learnt something new today.


----------



## Coffee_Bean (21 April 2009)

Hated my wintec 500. It was uncomfortable and lifted at the back and rubbed her badly, it was the saddle she came with. I changed it pretty quickly after I bought her!!


----------



## jumptoit (23 April 2009)

I have 4 bates and 1 wintec saddle all with cair and the interchangeable gullets and I wouldn't go back. There are also pessoa ones out there now.


----------



## maginn (24 April 2009)

Ditto Ben &amp; Jerry's.
There are lots of saddles out there which can be adjusted, without dealing with gullets or similar.  I bought a Bates GP saddle for a youngster a few years ago with the misguided idea that it would fit because of the changeable gullets, but it didn't and I didn't like it to sit on either, I found that it tipped me forwards.  I did not find the gullets easy to change on the Bates, looked easy in the diagram , took me about half an hour and lots of swearing to do it. Ended up selling mine at a loss as brought off internet....so that was an expensive mistake.  

Some others that you can alter are the Prestige saddles and John Whitaker range, I think they both have a tree that can be adjusted by the saddler  - I think they just have to heat it up or something then they can mound it to the shape required.

If the saddle fits your horse and you like the flexibility of the gullets then fine, but I wouldn't recommend that you buy one without having it fitted by a saddler first.

Buying saddles for youngsters is a nightmare and I find it very frustrating that the saddlers in my area have only a couple of second hand saddles in stock.  I guess there is more money to be made selling brand new but if you have a youngster that is bound to change who wants to go &amp; spend over a grand on a saddle.  I think there is a real untapped market for second hand saddles, most get sold on ebay I am sure but it's so difficult to buy off there unless you know exactly what you want.  I find it very frustrating ! rant over !!


----------



## Cliqmo (24 April 2009)

Hi Busywithhorses, just wondering if you have come across www.saddlesdirect.co.uk? It can be a bit of a treasure trove if you kow what you are after


----------

