# Horse still bucking WWYD?



## Illusion100 (8 July 2014)

Horse purchased and the moment a rider sat on back, would buck until rider dumped.

Horse sent to Trainer and was sent back recently deemed suitable for Novice riders and without any issues. 

Trainer came to give lesson 3 days after horse home and horse, as soon as rider/owner got on, bucked until rider was dumped on ground for no apparent reason. (Horse was ridden day after coming home by owner and did not buck)

A more experienced rider got on horse, moment asked to walk on horse spun 180 and legged it up arena. 

Trainer said can't believe horse bucked first rider off, but they have the other rider to ride horse for them, left yard and cashed the cheques paid by client. 

Horse owner has fractured vertebrae and very distressed.

Advice please!


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## Goldenstar (8 July 2014)

Hard one but I am dealing with a horse ATM who broncs if you put him in a schooling environment with a person on the ground .
If you saw this horse until it has a 'turn ' you would not believe it it's bizarre .
I hope the owner is going be ok I fractured vertebrate twice I recovered well .


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## be positive (8 July 2014)

It may be behavioural  and with a stronger more experienced rider it just gives up and is well behaved, hence being good while at the trainers yard, it could also be that it worked far harder each day and couldn't put up much of an effort, BUT it is far more likely that underlying is a physical problem that has yet to be found or resolved.

A vet is the first route now, the owner will presumably want to get the horse sorted out and sold on if that is possible, I take it they tried to find out more from the previous owner and failed on that route before sending it away.


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## Tiddlypom (8 July 2014)

Did the trainer use the owner's saddle?

Is the owner a similar weight as the trainer?


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## Goldenstar (8 July 2014)

Tiddlypom said:



			Did the trainer use the owner's saddle?

Is the owner a similar weight as the trainer?
		
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Good questions


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## Illusion100 (8 July 2014)

Horse mis-sold by dealers. Had back issue and was much greener than told. Dealers went underground when new owner tried to get back in touch. Horse received vet checks, thermo-imaging and physio until back loose and supple before going to Trainer. Physio checked horse twice at Trainers yard and reported no issue. 

The horse appeared very laid back and chilled when handled, tacked up etc but was clearly anxious when at mounting block and rider getting on. It started bucking before rider could get foot in outside stirrup. Exactly the same problem it was sent to Trainer for.

When more experienced rider got on, it was anxious about having that rider on back too, pulled a fast one and it backfired on horse in that the rider had sharper reactions and controlled the situation.

Find it surprising that the Trainers attitude was, oh, so that's what horse does, horse did that with a grin on his face, anyway they can ride him for you, see ya, p.s thanks for the chunk of cash I'm off to bank.


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## Illusion100 (8 July 2014)

Tiddlypom said:



			Did the trainer use the owner's saddle?

Is the owner a similar weight as the trainer?
		
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Horse was sent to Trainer with own saddle that was used throughout and checked by saddle fitter and physio shortly before being sent away, same saddle used that day during lesson. Trainer possibly a stone heavier than rider/owner thrown.

Edited to say, Trainer smaller in height and more muscular than owner/rider, who is taller but slim build. I am useless at guessing weights but second rider quite small and very slim.


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## BethanT (8 July 2014)

Illusion100 said:



			Horse mis-sold by dealers. Had back issue and was much greener than told. Dealers went underground when new owner tried to get back in touch. Horse received vet checks, thermo-imaging and physio until back loose and supple before going to Trainer. Physio checked horse twice at Trainers yard and reported no issue. 

The horse appeared very laid back and chilled when handled, tacked up etc but was clearly anxious when at mounting block and rider getting on. It started bucking before rider could get foot in outside stirrup. Exactly the same problem it was sent to Trainer for.

When more experienced rider got on, it was anxious about having that rider on back too, pulled a fast one and it backfired on horse in that the rider had sharper reactions and controlled the situation.

Find it surprising that the Trainers attitude was, oh, so that's what horse does, horse did that with a grin on his face, anyway they can ride him for you, see ya, p.s thanks for the chunk of cash I'm off to bank.
		
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How old is the horse??? 

It may be that a) he is remebering pain from before vet checks. You mention he gets anxious at the mounting block so this could be an indication of remembering past pain. When my pony started to get funny about the mounting block it turned out to be his back and for a good 2 months or so after he was still a bit off as a result of the prior pain. 
b) he could have been backed incredibly badly. So you could try going back to basics and starting from scratch, though I suspect this would only be effective if he is faaaairly young. 
c) get a bloody good jockey who is unlikely to fall off. When I worked at a yard the jockey there was fearless and literally didnt fall off anything no matter what it did. Once a horse realised he wasnt going to come off it soon stopped its antics.


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## be positive (8 July 2014)

Trainer may have not really done the job properly, the attitude implies that is likely, he has probably got the horse to the stage he can ride it, carefully mounting, lots of hard work etc but not taken the care to ensure it will be suitable on it's return to a less able rider.
It may not be a totally lost cause, if it is just the getting on that is the issue, it is a matter of finding the right person to take it on, get it genuinely confident with mounting in different situations with different people , ridden away properly, it will take time and more money but as the last rider did manage to stay on and in control it should be possible, care needs to be taken where is goes from here if it is to have a useful future.


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## Illusion100 (8 July 2014)

BethanT said:



			How old is the horse??? 

It may be that a) he is remebering pain from before vet checks. You mention he gets anxious at the mounting block so this could be an indication of remembering past pain. When my pony started to get funny about the mounting block it turned out to be his back and for a good 2 months or so after he was still a bit off as a result of the prior pain. 
b) he could have been backed incredibly badly. So you could try going back to basics and starting from scratch, though I suspect this would only be effective if he is faaaairly young. 
c) get a bloody good jockey who is unlikely to fall off. When I worked at a yard the jockey there was fearless and literally didnt fall off anything no matter what it did. Once a horse realised he wasnt going to come off it soon stopped its antics.
		
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A very green 6 yr old. Horse had lots ground work done before going to Trainer. Completely relaxed at being tacked up, travelled to and standing at mounting block and rider leaning over back. Horse is now anxious about mounting block in general and having rider on after coming back from Trainer.

Horse sent to Trainer to be re-backed and came home with same problems.

Owner may have problem finding a fearless jockey with a sticky bum willing to train the horse for nothing or minimal money. Small fortune spent on Trainer.


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## Illusion100 (9 July 2014)

be positive said:



			Trainer may have not really done the job properly, the attitude implies that is likely, he has probably got the horse to the stage he can ride it, carefully mounting, lots of hard work etc but not taken the care to ensure it will be suitable on it's return to a less able rider.
It may not be a totally lost cause, if it is just the getting on that is the issue, it is a matter of finding the right person to take it on, get it genuinely confident with mounting in different situations with different people , ridden away properly, it will take time and more money but as the last rider did manage to stay on and in control it should be possible, care needs to be taken where is goes from here if it is to have a useful future.
		
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Totally agree with you. 

However, I feel the Trainer is at fault and has completely dismissed any responsibility for the horse doing exactly the same thing it was sent to them to 'fix'. They took a significant amount of money and basically wiped their hands when they witnessed first hand the bucking issue.

It's not my horse and not my problem but if I was the owner, I'd be pretty furious with Trainer? 

Does owner have any right to say 'Oi?!', money back/sort out issue that you didn't etc?


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## alainax (9 July 2014)

Sounds like the owner really doesn't click with this horse. 

I rode a fab wee horse, 100% in ever way. I rode him for prospective buyer, no issues, she got on and he acted like he had been electrocutred! She fell off, I got back on, he was absolutely fine. 

Sometime we just dont click with some horses. 

As for the trainer, he/she can try all she might to have the horse supposidly ready for a novice, but if the owner and horse just are polar opposites, then its really the trainers job to say " you just dont click"

As for money back, that depends on the contract. If it was x week's schooling livery  (which it usually is) then they did their job, for them, and for all intents and purposes, for others they have seen ride, the horse is fine. 

If the contract stated until the horse is suitable for a novice to ride (which would be bonkers) then yes, they need to keep up their side of the deal.

Maybe its time the owner thought about finding  more suitable mount, and the trainer may be able to help with the sale?


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## Illusion100 (9 July 2014)

alainax said:



			Sounds like the owner really doesn't click with this horse. 

I rode a fab wee horse, 100% in ever way. I rode him for prospective buyer, no issues, she got on and he acted like he had been electrocutred! She fell off, I got back on, he was absolutely fine. 

Sometime we just dont click with some horses. 

As for the trainer, he/she can try all she might to have the horse supposidly ready for a novice, but if the owner and horse just are polar opposites, then its really the trainers job to say " you just dont click"

As for money back, that depends on the contract. If it was x week's schooling livery  (which it usually is) then they did their job, for them, and for all intents and purposes, for others they have seen ride, the horse is fine. 

If the contract stated until the horse is suitable for a novice to ride (which would be bonkers) then yes, they need to keep up their side of the deal.

Maybe its time the owner thought about finding  more suitable mount, and the trainer may be able to help with the sale?
		
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Owner asked several times if horse suitable for them, Trainer said yes each time. Owner noted when having lessons at Trainers yard that horse was figeting/anxious at mounting block/rider getting on/walking off sideways when mounting and although owner concerned, Trainer said nothing to worry about, with knowledge owner novice rider.

No contract was signed as none was offered by Trainer. 

As far as I know, Trainer won't assist with sale as horse isn't their 'stamp'.


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## showpony (9 July 2014)

Could be that owner is exhibiting tension and green nervy horse picking up on it.


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## Illusion100 (9 July 2014)

showpony said:



			Could be that owner is exhibiting tension and green nervy horse picking up on it.
		
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That is certainly a factor. However the horse isn't a nervy type, although green in experience he is quite sensible and laid back in general. 

Definitely anxious/concerned about being mounted though.


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## sasquatch (9 July 2014)

Might be the horse knows if they buck, owner falls off.
Sounds as if trainer has given him an extra fear of being mounted which won't help either.

Or he's just at that page in the book if he's a very green 6yo horse.
Some of the more stubborn ones go through a stage of 'don't want to, so I won't' - had a similar thing with a young horse I'd been riding for a while. He was good as gold for a few months then decided he wanted to protest for a few months, and the cycle continued. He was also a very laid back yet green horse, the things that spooked my 12yo he didn't even seem to notice.

Is it possible to get someone who is just good at sticking to ride? Doesn't necessarily have to be someone 'pro' just someone with Andrew Nicholson-type stickability.


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## Illusion100 (9 July 2014)

sasquatch said:



			Might be the horse knows if they buck, owner falls off.
Sounds as if trainer has given him an extra fear of being mounted which won't help either.

Or he's just at that page in the book if he's a very green 6yo horse.
Some of the more stubborn ones go through a stage of 'don't want to, so I won't' - had a similar thing with a young horse I'd been riding for a while. He was good as gold for a few months then decided he wanted to protest for a few months, and the cycle continued. He was also a very laid back yet green horse, the things that spooked my 12yo he didn't even seem to notice.

Is it possible to get someone who is just good at sticking to ride? Doesn't necessarily have to be someone 'pro' just someone with Andrew Nicholson-type stickability.
		
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Defo not Andrew stickability rider (who is? and how does he do that???!!!) but the second rider (that got on bucky horse)that spun and pelted off as soon as their bum reached the saddle might be an option. However I'm not sure if they would ride the horse foc and owner already spent over 4 figures on vet/diagnostics/physio/saddler/trainer (most on *cough* trainer)

The horse was anxious as soon as it went to mounting block, backing up, turning hind end away and Trainer ignored/didn't read signs and 'accident' happened. 

The horse was certainly anxious and realised it was getting owner/rider off-balance and kept going until it finished the job. 

Horse bucked approx. 10-15 times in a row while spinning, when horse realised it had owner suitably off balance it dropped a shoulder. Bucks were small but consistent. Owner has fractured vertebrae, arm damage and eye damage.

Trainer, uninterested and laughing their way to bank. Just feeling very upset, not even my problem but owner is lovely person and feeling very annoyed about what's happened.


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## cptrayes (9 July 2014)

Has this horse's back been x rayed?

It sounds to me like the horse is in pain and not wanting to be ridden, but an experienced rider can force it to accept it when a novice can't.


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## HeresHoping (9 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Has this horse's back been x rayed?

It sounds to me like the horse is in pain and not wanting to be ridden, but an experienced rider can force it to accept it when a novice can't.
		
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Sorry to be a harbinger of doom, but I totally agree with this.  You can only see KS with an X-ray, and SI issues with a scan.  Thermal imaging might show heat spots but it's not 100% positive all the time. I suggest you see what's left on the insurance and send for X-rays - even neck ones - and a scan.

HH - with horrible, debilitating and injurious experience of bronking horse with mild KS but also a severely compromised SI joint that only showed up on PM.


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## be positive (9 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Has this horse's back been x rayed?

It sounds to me like the horse is in pain and not wanting to be ridden, but an experienced rider can force it to accept it when a novice can't.
		
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That is my thinking also, horses will often put up with the pain when ridden forcefully by a really tough person but revert once the less able rider gets on as they feel the weakness and revert, I do think the trainer has done a poor job as it seems the horse was still not "perfect" while at their yard despite saying it was, they should have at least said there was still an issue and suggested further tests.


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## Christmas Crumpet (9 July 2014)

I also agree on this - horses don't behave this way unless they are in pain and it sounds like the poor horse is in a lot of pain.


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## Regandal (9 July 2014)

I would also go with pain.  The first sign my WB showed (with his previous owner) of pain from navicular was reluctance to stand at the mounting block, especially turning his quarters away.  Back xray sounds good plan, not sure what they cost though.


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## xTrooperx (9 July 2014)

Some horses just can't deal with a rider I've know a horse who just wasn't happy under saddle to point of dangerous,  so they broke him  to drive. Said horse is the happiest hes been and no problems since change of career.


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## Slightlyconfused (9 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Has this horse's back been x rayed?

It sounds to me like the horse is in pain and not wanting to be ridden, but an experienced rider can force it to accept it when a novice can't.
		
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Yep, having been trying to log on all morning to ask this......sorry op but it sounds like pain related.


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## stormox (9 July 2014)

It sounds to me the horse wasn't properly broken in the first place-maybe itd only been sat on a couple of times at the previous owners? Or had it been drugged when she tried it? What do you mean 'dealer (previous owner) went to ground?' if theyr a dealer surely they can be traced?? I think the problem lies more with the seller than the trainer.


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## Illusion100 (9 July 2014)

Evening all! 

No the horse has not had any spinal x-rays or MRI/CT scan. KS or bony change may be a possibility and was discussed with vet, physio and trainer, this may be an avenue that needs investigating. 

Offered a hand today. Walked horse up to mounting block with just a headcollar on and leant over it at a couple of different mounting blocks, then repeated with bridle on, then repeated with bridle and saddle. 

With headcollar - really quite relaxed about it all.

With bridle - When reins gathered, signs of anxiety, head up, ears back to monitor what's going on, tense.

With bridle and saddle - same as with bridle but also anxious when foot/weight placed on stirrup, stepping backwards.

In time, horse became much more relaxed. Soft eye, slow blinking, lowered head, ears floppy, relaxed muzzle. Then a big sigh and a yawn, so left it at that.

It appears the horse is anxious about the whole mounting process and maybe hasn't been allowed time to settle and relax with each stage before rider goes the whole hog and gets on.

The horse was ridden by the owner and another novice rider on several occasions at the trainers yard and did note the horse tensed when mounted and immediately started moving before being asked to, also tensed when reins gathered.

Physio examined horse twice while at trainers yard and expressed no back issue noted and horse round and active in walk/trot, bringing hindlegs underneath well, however slightly unbalanced in canter, which they felt was not unexpected.

When horse threw riders before going to trainers yard, it wasn't messing around one little bit, when each rider was forcefully dumped horse tended to run to a corner and stop.

When it dumped owner the other day, after it came back from Trainer, they were small but consistent bucks (done in lovely pirouettes), when rider disposed off, horse went charging round with a proud neck, tail up, showing extended paces and gleefully avoided attempts to be caught with a significant turn of foot and a lot of showing off.


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## galaxy (9 July 2014)

I would also say this horse needs a full vet work up, symptoms are screaming pain if he is generally a laid back character.

If however you want to rule out fear of mounting block I would stop trying to force the issue and see if the horse was mountable by a leg up. I had an extremely sensitive mare who was scared of them, but fine to have a leg up onto or even bizarrely the ground eventually (although this was hardly ever done! But shows that the issue was the block itself)


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## cptrayes (9 July 2014)

Assuming the teeth are ok, given its history,  I would start the horse again from scratch as if it had never been ridden. If it started to buck again I would get back and neck x rays. If they showed nothing, I would get a gamma ray scintigraph. And if that found nothing I would have it put down.

But if I was the current owner, I would ask the trainer who is convinced that the horse is fine to take it and sell it with full disclosure to the buyers.  I don't think this is necessarily the right thing for the horse, but she is in a really tough place with this one.


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## Illusion100 (9 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Assuming the teeth are ok, given its history,  I would start the horse again from scratch as if it had never been ridden. If it started to buck again I would get back and neck x rays. If they showed nothing, I would get a gamma ray scintigraph. And if that found nothing I would have it put down.

But if I was the current owner, I would ask the trainer who is convinced that the horse is fine to take it and sell it with full disclosure to the buyers.  I don't think this is necessarily the right thing for the horse, but she is in a really tough place with this one.
		
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Trainer has refused to do this on the principle of the horse is not their 'stamp'.

Really feel for the owner. Spent a small fortune on this horse and back at square 0. Decided to stick my neck out and re:re: back horse for them foc on the basis that they fully cover me insurance wise and do my labour jobs in the time I'd lose working with their horse.


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## cptrayes (9 July 2014)

Illusion100 said:



			Trainer has refused to do this on the principle of the horse is not their 'stamp'.

Really feel for the owner. Spent a small fortune on this horse and back at square 0. Decided to stick my neck out and re:re: back horse for them foc on the basis that they fully cover me insurance wise and do my labour jobs in the time I'd lose working with their horse.
		
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The owner is lucky they have you. The dealer sounds like he knows it will rebound on his reputation if he sells it.


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## Illusion100 (9 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			The owner is lucky they have you. The dealer sounds like he knows it will rebound on his reputation if he sells it.
		
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Thanks, it's amazing the lengths I'll go to get out of poo-picking


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## Illusion100 (25 July 2014)

The saga continues.....

Shortly after posting this thread, the decision was made to go down the vet route. Initial vet visit involved watching horse on lunge then hind limb flexion tests. Vets opinion was horse not tracking-up behind and unsound.

Full lameness work-up and bone scan later......numerous Vets scratching their heads not finding anything specifically wrong with horse. Vets decision is a Bute Trial.

Anyone else been in similar predicament? 

Thanks everyone!


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## cptrayes (25 July 2014)

Just to make sure we know what we mean, the horse has had a gamma ray scintigraph?

Has it had back x rays?  Kissing spine pain can be caused by clashing nerves that won't necessarily show as inflammation on a scintigraph.

Under the circumstances, I would not expect a Bute trial to do anything,  it at least it would be cheap!


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## old hand (25 July 2014)

I had a horse that behaved exactly like this.  we did find the problem.  he had an unusually wide spine bone and considerable remembered pain from saddles. broken in Ireland and had a career bucking all and sundry off in England.  Sold to me as unbroken but was aware there would be problems when he jumped three feet in the air when I put my hands in the saddle area when I bought him. he was very nervous but kind enough so decided to take a chance.  two very experienced friends helped me reback him but the problem remained until I found the problem which was two fold.  needed a high but back head and a very wide channel in the saddle plus sufficient padding to ensure the saddle did not ever touch the spine, plus a sheepskin ( with sheepskin on) half pad and a sheepskin numnah.  massaged his back to release tension before girthing up very slowly, he would cramp the supporting muscles before your eyes if you did not.  he did not have any physical problems as was thoroughly checked.  to start with had to spend time backing in the stable before every ride,  and yes he was terrified of a mounting block etc.  However as long as you were always very careful he was the safest hack ever and jumoed really well but still had problems in the school if there were no jumps in it.  memories I assume as he never did it in the ring only if you decided to do flat work, I assume that's as far as they ever got before. so, in short as long as he was not doing what they did before he was fine and I did have to make sure no-one ever stood next to a jump ( presumably had been chased over them.  lovely horse just wish I had got him first as he would have been broken at his speed.


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## Booga22 (25 July 2014)

carolineb said:



			I also agree on this - horses don't behave this way unless they are in pain and it sounds like the poor horse is in a lot of pain.
		
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I have to agree with the others suggesting the pain factor - this sounds so much like my girl 2 years ago. All the anxiety/fidgeting etc and then explosions, and i mean, real explosions under saddle. Didn't know she was capable of making the shapes she made (and she is such a kind natured horse who loves working). Long story short, x rays revealed and confirmed our suspicions - kissing spines but, after surgery she is doing extremely well and never a repeat of those explosions


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## Ceriann (25 July 2014)

My now 6 year old mare did this about 14/15 months ago.  Id had her about 4 months - sane, sensible (if green in school) but genuine.  I came off her in a hacking accident (spooked by ramblers) and broke my leg weeks before i moved her home from livery.  When i started riding again (ridden by a mate whilst i was off) - second or third time, she lost it, took off down our drive, broncing, i came off and she took herself through our neighbours hedge (5 foot drop over stock fencing).  Next time i got on (in school) she tensed the minute i got and rodeod me about the place - no doubt about intention.  I was frankly terrified of her.  We went down the scan route (especially as she wasnt 100% sound at the back after her broncing fits) - they found nothing (other than mild hot spots which i was told were v normal).  I got a new saddler (saddle had been checked and adjusted only 2/3 months before) and as a result bought a new saddle and have not looked back.  Im ashamed that i caused her the pain i must have done to make her do that but it shows you can never check the basics too much.  We are now on saddle 3 as 6 months post new saddle she started to play up to mount, so got saddler again and issue resolved immediately.  Whilst she has no identifiable physical issues, i  am now live to how sensitive she is in her back and work with it.  She's also a growing/changing shape all the time so be careful yours hasnt just had a growth spurt or weight spurt and saddle no longer right.


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## Illusion100 (25 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Just to make sure we know what we mean, the horse has had a gamma ray scintigraph?

Has it had back x rays?  Kissing spine pain can be caused by clashing nerves that won't necessarily show as inflammation on a scintigraph.

Under the circumstances, I would not expect a Bute trial to do anything,  it at least it would be cheap!
		
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The report states a Nuclear Scintigraphy was performed. No spinal x-rays done. Bute trial next Vet prescribed form of action. 

Personally, I believe this horse has spinal issues.

Over £2k spent on VF presently.

Vets did not choose to investigate the spine further, they focused on the RH where they could later find no lameness!


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## cptrayes (25 July 2014)

It is now known that a Bute trial will not help with back pain. This horse surely needs  back x rays?  The vets have spent over a thousand quid of insurance money, I hope,  on a scintigraph, why did they not do two hundred quids worth of x rays?  If I was the owner I would now insist on them.


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## Goldenstar (25 July 2014)

£200 won't X-ray a whole back but I do think that's what the owner needs to .
It of course could be a serious soft tissue issue but you would expect him to show some sign of it .
I am not a fan of thermal imaging but perhaps that's worth a shot it does not cost a fortune .


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## Slightlyconfused (26 July 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			£200 won't X-ray a whole back but I do think that's what the owner needs to .
It of course could be a serious soft tissue issue but you would expect him to show some sign of it .
I am not a fan of thermal imaging but perhaps that's worth a shot it does not cost a fortune .
		
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My mares back X-rays cost around the five hundred or a little less mark, had it done at the yard in her stable and could see straight away the KS. 

Would push for the back X-ray, danilon never did my mare any good when she was on it for the trial before the X-ray.


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## cptrayes (26 July 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			£200 won't X-ray a whole back
		
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I paid £200 for whole back x rays in July 2013 in Cheshire

My bill for four xrays and  five DSP injections came to £550


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## ILuvCowparsely (26 July 2014)

Illusion100 said:



			Horse purchased and the moment a rider sat on back, would buck until rider dumped.

Horse sent to Trainer and was sent back recently deemed suitable for Novice riders and without any issues. 

Trainer came to give lesson 3 days after horse home and horse, as soon as rider/owner got on, bucked until rider was dumped on ground for no apparent reason. (Horse was ridden day after coming home by owner and did not buck)

A more experienced rider got on horse, moment asked to walk on horse spun 180 and legged it up arena. 

Trainer said can't believe horse bucked first rider off, but they have the other rider to ride horse for them, left yard and cashed the cheques paid by client. 

Horse owner has fractured vertebrae and very distressed.

Advice please!
		
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 Have you had a physio to check the horses back???

Believe me if there is inflammation or pain related in the back the end result is the horse bucks till the rider comes off

  I have only now after 9 months off riding and 5 months with a broken humerus then had surgery to fix it  been given the all clear.

all down to inflammation in his back and injury (all down to a livery's stupidity).  It was not horses fault when physio checked his back he reacted to 10lbs of finger pressure so a rider would have been excruciating.


I would get vet
check back
check saddle


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## conniegirl (26 July 2014)

My lad had X-rays of his spine, hocks and knees, a full lameness work up, was scoped etc for £600 2 yrs ago! He was a bolter!
The bone scan showed a fractured pelvis despite the fact he was 100% sound in all other tests.

As yours has had the bone scan I'd be insisting on spinal X-rays. 
I also know one very very good trainer Who will come out to you and assess the horse. She was instrumental in getting my lad through the remembers pain


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## BethanT (26 July 2014)

Agree with above. Back X-rays are a must do. If current vet won't find another. 

As you mention he got tense with the bridle on I would also maybe inclined to have poll and neck checked too. Worked with a horse very similar to the one you describe and as soon as you picked up the reins he bucked reared etc. turned out he was tight or had a broken poll (can't remember was a while ago). 

Hope you get an answer soon poor soul.


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## Illusion100 (26 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			It is now known that a Bute trial will not help with back pain. This horse surely needs  back x rays?  The vets have spent over a thousand quid of insurance money, I hope,  on a scintigraph, why did they not do two hundred quids worth of x rays?  If I was the owner I would now insist on them.
		
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Do you have any good links re: bute trial ineffective for back pain? I would like to show these to owner as they may sway their opinion to push for spinal x-rays!


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## Illusion100 (26 July 2014)

Hi all, thanks for recent replies. Sorry to hear of the injuries of your horses and yourselves. 

Horse has had physio before and during time it was at Trainers yard. Physio was very happy with horses back during it's re:backing. 

It has also had saddler out, has a well fitting saddle according to Saddler, physio and Vet. It was also ridden in this saddle whilst being re:backed.

When I briefly rode the horse, I got nothing from it's righthand side, nothing, nada, zero. Extremely unwilling to flex to the right and very resistant to right aids in walk, I didn't even bother trotting it just wasn't right. Co-incidently on the lunge this horse is resistant to flex to the inside on right rein from approx. withers to head, maybe even from a bit further down the spine.

I agree with you guys, spinal x-rays seem to be the best port of call and I'm worried about the bute trial anyway, if it doesn't work some poor person (probably me!) might well get violently dumped in the dirt just to 'see if it works'! 

It's not my horse and I can't force x-rays but I can now say many people would recommend this. Thanks for all the help!


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## cptrayes (26 July 2014)

Illusion100 said:



			Do you have any good links re: bute trial ineffective for back pain? I would like to show these to owner as they may sway their opinion to push for spinal x-rays!
		
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No, sorry, I was told it by the owner of agnew equine, a hugely experienced vet, and others on the forum have been told the same by other vets. If you check the Mail for Thursday, though, you'll find an article that says they have just done a huge trial which shows that paracetamol doesn't work on back pain in humans!


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## Slightlyconfused (26 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			No, sorry, I was told it by the owner of agnew equine, a hugely experienced vet, and others on the forum have been told the same by other vets. If you check the Mail for Thursday, though, you'll find an article that says they have just done a huge trial which shows that paracetamol doesn't work on back pain in humans!
		
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Im have been telling my doctors that for ages! 


Maybe show them this thread? Might be reading what others have suggested might help them decide. 

Also if back X-rays come back clear scoping would be my next port of call as I think I remember seeing on here a few others with ulcers said their horses didn't do well to the right.


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## Daytona (26 July 2014)

I had a 6 year old, bought as 4 year old, bucked me off on many occasions, spent thousands and thousands on horse being professionally schooled.

Horse never bucked pro's off only me.  Had all the physical checks done, vets , thermo imagining, made to measure saddles

You name it I done it.

After numerous nasty hospital trips and operations for me thanks to said horse I finally after 2 years cut my loses and got rid of the horse.

Wish I'd done it at the start instead of wasting so much money, I could of bought the horse 4 times over for what I spent on schooling

You live you learn... Won't make that mistake again

Some people and horsey just don't gel.


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## surreygirl17 (28 July 2014)

Have you had the dentist recently? I had issues with mine where he was edgy about being mounted, fine in walk but awful in trot and throwing head up, became lame and very stiff. Physio found nothing, saddle fitter checked and reflocked saddle with no improvement. 

Eventually worked out it was wolf teeth which might explain reluctance to be bridled.  (Had dismissed teeth as dentist had been recently but apparently filing off sharp edges had enabled the bit to touch the wobbly wolf teeth).  So with us, the dentist came, removed sharp edges and this unmasked a wolf teeth problem that.  Might be worth checking?


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## Illusion100 (28 July 2014)

surreygirl17 said:



			Have you had the dentist recently? I had issues with mine where he was edgy about being mounted, fine in walk but awful in trot and throwing head up, became lame and very stiff. Physio found nothing, saddle fitter checked and reflocked saddle with no improvement. 

Eventually worked out it was wolf teeth which might explain reluctance to be bridled.  (Had dismissed teeth as dentist had been recently but apparently filing off sharp edges had enabled the bit to touch the wobbly wolf teeth).  So with us, the dentist came, removed sharp edges and this unmasked a wolf teeth problem that.  Might be worth checking?
		
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Thanks, I'll check about the teeth but think he was checked by dentist in March.


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## Illusion100 (28 July 2014)

More info guys!

Procedure: Nuclear scintigraphy examination

Summary/findings: following locations:

1. Moderate and focal IRU associated with the RH pastern.

2. Moderate and focal IRU associated with the RH fetlock.

3. Mild and focal IRU associated with the distal hock joint of the RH and this extends distally on the DP view on the RH.

4. Moderate coalescing IRU along the dorsal spinous processes of the thoracolumbar spine and some mild IRU associated with caudal thoracic vertebral bodies.

Bone scan vet stated the spinal issue would easily be enough to warrant bucking under saddle.

Horse referred back to initial treating practice, even though the referral was to include a full lameness work-up as explained when owner took horse to referring vets, but anyway. Initial practice then performed a lameness work-up after the bone scan was performed but without the referral vets full report. Lunged on soft surface only, nerve blocks and a lameness locator. Results inconclusive, however initial vets now leaning towards a LH lameness but performed no further investigation, opting for a ridden Bute Trial.

Initial vet believes the spine is secondary and did not warrant investigation as it would NOT cause bucking, as this is behavioural, in their professional opinion. (Why bother with a Bute Trial then, or am I missing something?!).

Owners insurance company obviously will not pay out for behavioural issues, they feel insecure about requesting spinal x-rays from another practice in case they show nothing and they have to foot the majority of the vets bills. 

Crystal Ball time everyone.....WWYD???? 

Thanks!!


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## stormox (28 July 2014)

How long has the owner had the horse?  Did she get it from a dealer or private seller? Was it vetted on purchase?  I think current owner may have some claim on the seller, or original vet.


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## Illusion100 (28 July 2014)

stormox said:



			How long has the owner had the horse?  Did she get it from a dealer or private seller? Was it vetted on purchase?  I think current owner may have some claim on the seller, or original vet.
		
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Owned since last Sept. Bought from Dealers who have since upped and moved from area shortly after selling horse. Yes, vetted and blood sampled, however I can't remember if 2 or 5 stage vetting and now too late to sample bloods. 

Please, stormox, if you don't mind, would really appreciate any info or idea suggestions you have as owner is very upset about everything.


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## Regandal (28 July 2014)

Illusion100 said:



			Bone scan vet stated the spinal issue would easily be enough to warrant bucking under saddle.
		
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I'd be going with this.  I believe there are various treatments now, including a specific exercise regime.


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## stormox (28 July 2014)

In your original post you seem to be blaming the trainer that was hired, but it seems like the trouble started before you hired the trainer, so I don't think you can blame them. If it was a 5 stage vetting, bloods should have been taken, I believe they are kept for 6 months but may still be in storage? But I think you should have tried to sort the problem out with the dealer, rather than hire a trainer. How soon after purchase did the problem start? If they were proper dealers surely someone knows where they went? And you would definitely have a claim as the horse wasn't 'fit for purpose' at time of purchase.


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## be positive (28 July 2014)

Illusion100 said:



			Owned since last Sept. Bought from Dealers who have since upped and moved from area shortly after selling horse. Yes, vetted and blood sampled, however I can't remember if 2 or 5 stage vetting and now too late to sample bloods. 

Please, stormox, if you don't mind, would really appreciate any info or idea suggestions you have as owner is very upset about everything.
		
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I hadn't realised it had been so long, the stay at the trainers was several months no wonder he was happy!!! 

As is so often the case everything is done too late or in response to whatever the horse does next, it would have made sense to do the bloods as soon as it showed the initial behaviour.
I don't think you are likely to have any comeback on the vet, it is still not showing to be unsound as such, any behavioural issues could have been well hidden by the sellers, much as the trainer has managed, any comeback on the dealers will probably prove expensive it all should have been started early on, it may be worth trying Trading Standards but the dealer is likely to turn round and say it was fine when it was vetted, what has been going on in the past 10 months, it could have been injured traveling.

As for what the owner actually does next, the referral vets have not help much just found possible sites of slight concern but then failed to do any further diagnostics, the first vets think the back is not a problem and find an issue on the near hind, the scan found something on off hind, so very murky and unhelpful. 
I think the owner needs to consider how far she wants to take this, if the insurance will not pay out, nothing physical is found that can be treated, she must have spent ££££sss on an unrideable horse that she cannot feel much for having barely dealt with it, I am not one to say this lightly but I would consider cutting my loses and having it pts or just turning it away for a year and see what it looks like when it comes back in but that may prevent her being able to move on with her life.


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## Illusion100 (28 July 2014)

stormox said:



			In your original post you seem to be blaming the trainer that was hired, but it seems like the trouble started before you hired the trainer, so I don't think you can blame them. If it was a 5 stage vetting, bloods should have been taken, I believe they are kept for 6 months but may still be in storage? But I think you should have tried to sort the problem out with the dealer, rather than hire a trainer. How soon after purchase did the problem start? If they were proper dealers surely someone knows where they went? And you would definitely have a claim as the horse wasn't 'fit for purpose' at time of purchase.
		
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Hi,

This is not my horse, it is a friends horse. I am simply trying to assist them with a difficult situation. 

Blood sampling is not a requirement of a 5 stage vetting, just as x-rays aren't. Blood samples are only stored for 6 months. However, as said before this horse was b/sampled at vetting.

The owner did try to sort the issue out with the dealer. They ignored phonecalls, letters and visits to their property, then relocated. Since this happened, through a lot of digging, this is a normal trend for those dealers, they relocate and change their name.

A trainer should resolve issues (that's what they are paid for), however they did not/could not. At no point did they express any significant problem with the horse to the owner and walked away after witnessing the bucking first hand with the owner, saying they had another rider (other livery) to train it for owner! 

The problem started in March this year. Last Sept, the day the horse moved to owners livery yard, the horse got over-excited when unloaded and stood on owners foot, causing a nasty fracture involving approx. 6 months recovery. (For owner, not horse!). When re: introduced to ridden work in March, horse threw 4 different riders.

Yes, personally I am angry with Trainer., they didn't do their job.


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## Illusion100 (28 July 2014)

be positive said:



			I hadn't realised it had been so long, the stay at the trainers was several months no wonder he was happy!!! 

As is so often the case everything is done too late or in response to whatever the horse does next, it would have made sense to do the bloods as soon as it showed the initial behaviour.
I don't think you are likely to have any comeback on the vet, it is still not showing to be unsound as such, any behavioural issues could have been well hidden by the sellers, much as the trainer has managed, any comeback on the dealers will probably prove expensive it all should have been started early on, it may be worth trying Trading Standards but the dealer is likely to turn round and say it was fine when it was vetted, what has been going on in the past 10 months, it could have been injured traveling.

As for what the owner actually does next, the referral vets have not help much just found possible sites of slight concern but then failed to do any further diagnostics, the first vets think the back is not a problem and find an issue on the near hind, the scan found something on off hind, so very murky and unhelpful. 
I think the owner needs to consider how far she wants to take this, if the insurance will not pay out, nothing physical is found that can be treated, she must have spent ££££sss on an unrideable horse that she cannot feel much for having barely dealt with it, I am not one to say this lightly but I would consider cutting my loses and having it pts or just turning it away for a year and see what it looks like when it comes back in but that may prevent her being able to move on with her life.
		
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Was at trainers for 4 weeks. Owner noted the horse anxious to be mounted when they went to ride horse at trainers yard but trainer said not a problem (described in more detail in earlier posts). I do not understand statement of 'no wonder he was happy' at trainers yard in comparison to 'home'?

Yes, this horse may well be PTS. Very sad situation all round.


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## ester (28 July 2014)

If I were the owner I would go back to the vets that did the bone scan and question them on treatment options if the back issue was the problem. On the basis that they are the 'experts' over the referring practice and if they thought it significant enough to cause bucking then it should have been worked up, regardless of the referring practices opinions.


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## be positive (28 July 2014)

I have just seen your last post where it now appears the horse  was turned away for 6 months, it read as if it had bucked riders off back in Sept then spent a long while with the trainer, my comment about being happy was the trainer getting paid for months of work, not the horse being happy. 

It is a sad case all round, the poor owner has been seriously injured not once but twice, has spent money trying to sort out a horse that probably has a deep rooted problem, more than likely the back but the chances are it is chronic, that may be why it ended up at the dealers, whatever is done now may be too late to work, certainly the current owner will be unlikely to want to ride it again.


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## Illusion100 (28 July 2014)

be positive said:



			I have just seen your last post where it now appears the horse  was turned away for 6 months, it read as if it had bucked riders off back in Sept then spent a long while with the trainer, my comment about being happy was the trainer getting paid for months of work, not the horse being happy. 

It is a sad case all round, the poor owner has been seriously injured not once but twice, has spent money trying to sort out a horse that probably has a deep rooted problem, more than likely the back but the chances are it is chronic, that may be why it ended up at the dealers, whatever is done now may be too late to work, certainly the current owner will be unlikely to want to ride it again.
		
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Sorry, I misread what you meant! Apologies.

Poor horse is 6, quite tragic really. What gets me most is horse is really nice person and very sensible for his age. Yes, horse had around 6 months off. 

No, the owner will never ride this horse again. I will be riding horse for them during the bute trial, although having already ridden the horse I am extremely unhappy about doing so as the horse is abnormally unresponsive on the right rein. I do not believe this horse is sound in the spine but vets want ridden bute trial, and so, they shall have one, at the horses expense. Very sad.


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## Illusion100 (28 July 2014)

ester said:



			If I were the owner I would go back to the vets that did the bone scan and question them on treatment options if the back issue was the problem. On the basis that they are the 'experts' over the referring practice and if they thought it significant enough to cause bucking then it should have been worked up, regardless of the referring practices opinions.
		
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Owner being p****d about by vets, imo. Agree with you though and will forward your opinion to owner.


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## Pearlsasinger (28 July 2014)

ester said:



			If I were the owner I would go back to the vets that did the bone scan and question them on treatment options if the back issue was the problem. On the basis that they are the 'experts' over the referring practice and if they thought it significant enough to cause bucking then it should have been worked up, regardless of the referring practices opinions.
		
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That is what I would do!

OP, I don't think any-one should ride this horse until the vets mentioned above have had their say, for your own safety and the horse's well-being.  I can't see that bute will do any good, it's an anti-inflammatory, so works on soft-tissue not bone, and it's not powerful enough to mask the kind of pain that it sounds as if this horse is in.


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## cptrayes (28 July 2014)

Illusion100 said:



			4. Moderate coalescing IRU along the dorsal spinous processes of the thoracolumbar spine and some mild IRU associated with caudal thoracic vertebral bodies.

Bone scan vet stated the spinal issue would easily be enough to warrant bucking under saddle.




Crystal Ball time everyone.....WWYD???? 

Thanks!!
		
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I'd take the horse back to this vet for back xrays which can be claimed on the insurance, and treat for the kissing spines they are almost certainly going to find.

Your client's vets seem to me to be on the verge of a negligence claim. They have a diagnosis of something which does not respond to a bute trial and yet they prescribe a Bute trial. Poor horse


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## Illusion100 (28 July 2014)

Pearlsasinger said:



			That is what I would do!

OP, I don't think any-one should ride this horse until the vets mentioned above have had their say, for your own safety and the horse's well-being.  I can't see that bute will do any good, it's an anti-inflammatory, so works on soft-tissue not bone, and it's not powerful enough to mask the kind of pain that it sounds as if this horse is in.
		
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I don't think it's safe for me or positive for the horses physical and mental wellbeing for horse to be ridden straightaway either. I'd much prefer for the vet that recommended the bute trial to ride horse for me in the interim...... 

I've expressed to owner that I will take the time it needs to re train horses association with being tacked/mounting block/initial weight placements in stirrup and over back before I get on. If I'm not happy with horses responses, I'm not getting on. 

If horse happy with this process, I will only work initially in walk and if I'm not happy about abnormal responses to the aids, I will be getting off. I feel this horse has spinal issues and will not force it to tolerate pain but I do wish to go down this process, ride it like a Novice rider and determine if this bucking is physical or behavioural.


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## Illusion100 (28 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			I'd take the horse back to this vet for back xrays which can be claimed on the insurance, and treat for the kissing spines they are almost certainly going to find.

Your client's vets seem to me to be on the verge of a negligence claim. They have a diagnosis of something which does not respond to a bute trial and yet they prescribe a Bute trial. Poor horse 

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Completely agree. 

The only concern I have is if the x-rays show 'nothing significant' ( as any diagnostic image is only as good as the person that reads it) the owner will end up footing the VFs. Or am I being paranoid?


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## Meowy Catkin (28 July 2014)

I100 - please don't get on this horse.


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## cptrayes (28 July 2014)

Illusion100 said:



			Completely agree. 

The only concern I have is if the x-rays show 'nothing significant' ( as any diagnostic image is only as good as the person that reads it) the owner will end up footing the VFs. Or am I being paranoid?
		
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As long as the vet commissions the x rays, the insurance will pay even if they show nothing.

Ditto Faracat, please don't ride this horse, he could kill you


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## Amymay (28 July 2014)

Under no circumstances should you get on this horse.


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## Illusion100 (28 July 2014)

Faracat said:



			I100 - please don't get on this horse.
		
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Could I just ask why? I appreciate this comes across as a stupid question but would appreciate your reasons.

I just want to try and help with the right thing here for both horse and owner.


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## Meowy Catkin (28 July 2014)

4. Moderate coalescing IRU along the dorsal spinous processes of the thoracolumbar spine and some mild IRU associated with caudal thoracic vertebral bodies.

Bone scan vet stated the spinal issue would easily be enough to warrant bucking under saddle.
		
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Isn't this plus the injury to the owner enough to make you put your own safety first?


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## Illusion100 (28 July 2014)

If a ridden bute trial is not carried out, which is the vets decision, do you guys believe a diff vet practise would carry out spinal x-rays without repeating full lameness work-up etc?

Thanks for your concern everyone, it's very touching.  I promise I will not ride the horse until bone scan vet has been interrogated and any further diagnostics/treatments carried out/horse physically/mentally safe to ride!


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## cptrayes (28 July 2014)

Illusion100 said:



			Could I just ask why? I appreciate this comes across as a stupid question but would appreciate your reasons.

I just want to try and help with the right thing here for both horse and owner.
		
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You could be bucked off, break your back and never walk again.

You could be bucked off, break your neck and die.

The horse is in pain and does not deserve to be put in more pain by a stupid vet who is not listening to a vet who has better information that the horse is in pain.


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## cptrayes (28 July 2014)

Illusion100 said:



			If a ridden bute trial is not carried out, which is the vets decision, do you guys believe a diff vet practise would carry out spinal x-rays without repeating full lameness work-up etc?

Thanks for your concern everyone, it's very touching.  I promise I will not ride the horse until bone scan vet has been interrogated and any further diagnostics/treatments carried out/horse physically/mentally safe to ride!
		
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Absolutely yes!

I can give you the name of two vet practices near me who would, on the basis of what you have told us, x ray the horse immediately.


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## Meowy Catkin (28 July 2014)

I think the horse needs to go back to the Vet who did the bone scan if possible. 

I'm sure that CPT has mentioned (please correct me if I'm wrong) that bute trials are ineffective for back pain.

It's all very well the other Vet wanting a ridden bute trial, but they aren't the one getting on the horse and risking their life. Sometimes you do have to stand up to Vets and say 'no, what else can be done?' or change Vets.


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## Illusion100 (28 July 2014)

Faracat said:



			Isn't this plus the injury to the owner enough to make you put your own safety first?
		
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I appreciate what you are saying, thank you! Problem is initial vets have investigated the moderate IRU in the RH, found nothing of significance and have expressed as they have found nothing in the RH there is no reason to investigate the moderate spinal IRU. 

They have also disagreed that the back is the primary source of pain and would not cause the bucking, that is behavioural.

Rock and a hard place?!


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## Illusion100 (28 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Absolutely yes!

I can give you the name of two vet practices near me who would, on the basis of what you have told us, x ray the horse immediately.
		
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Please PM and I will pass info on to owner. Thank you!


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## Meowy Catkin (28 July 2014)

Just so you know, not walking again isn't the worst thing about a spinal injury at all.


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## Illusion100 (28 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			You could be bucked off, break your back and never walk again.

You could be bucked off, break your neck and die.

The horse is in pain and does not deserve to be put in more pain by a stupid vet who is not listening to a vet who has better information that the horse is in pain.
		
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Sounds strange but I was more concerned that riding would cause the horse damage! 

I just don't get why the horse apparently did not buck once during the 4 weeks with trainer but bucked after returning home? Ridden by trainer at home yard day horse came back, ridden by owner day after (no bucking), horse had next day off, then home lesson with trainer the next day owner, bucked off as soon as bum in saddle? 

The vet that did bone can had no interest in investigating spine further, sent horse back to initial vets to do a lameness work-up they were supposed to do before the performed the bone scan?

My brain is melting.....


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## Meowy Catkin (28 July 2014)

Some people have a way of riding that is less painful for the horse, or the horse is so full of adrenaline that it doesn't feel the pain so much, or it's more frightened of that rider than the pain, or something else... 

It's not unusual for horses with physical problems to be different at shows compared with home.


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## Illusion100 (29 July 2014)

Faracat said:



			Just so you know, not walking again isn't the worst thing about a spinal injury at all.
		
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Previously broken my back due to rotational fall xc, due to the fracture, spinal canal stenosis set in to the point of bilateral leg paralysis. Major surgery required and couldn't be more thankful over the result. To me, not being able to walk was the worst thing. I think I am too wimpish to even ask what is worse!


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## Illusion100 (29 July 2014)

Faracat said:



			Some people have a way of riding that is less painful for the horse, or the horse is so full of adrenaline that it doesn't feel the pain so much, or it's more frightened of that rider than the pain, or something else... 

It's not unusual for horses with physical problems to be different at shows compared with home.
		
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Have you any suggestions as to how to convince the vets of this? I really think the horse is in pain.


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## Meowy Catkin (29 July 2014)

If you damage the spinal cord so you get loo problems (double incontinence) and the associated loss of dignity, being in a wheelchair pales into insignificance.

I'm honestly shocked that you've had a serious injury previously and still thought about riding that horse.

ETA - just tell the Vet that no-one is willing to ride it - full stop and that they need to come up with another way forward.


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## Illusion100 (29 July 2014)

Faracat said:



			If you damage the spinal cord so you get loo problems (double incontinence) and the associated loss of dignity, being in a wheelchair pales into insignificance.

I'm honestly shocked that you've had a serious injury previously and still thought about riding that horse.

ETA - just tell the Vet that no-one is willing to ride it - full stop and that they need to come up with another way forward.
		
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I never did have any loo problems whatsoever even though the stenosis was crushing my spinal cord to 1/4 of it's original size, apparently this was very unusual however. Previous doctors failed to diagnose the condition because I had no loo problems! Thank goodness for the specialist.

I've had a lot of nasty injuries, I take it as part and parcel of horses and should perhaps seek mental help, although I doubt they could do anything for me.

Would the insurance company not refuse to pay if the client refused to follow the vet advice and recommended course of action?


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## Meowy Catkin (29 July 2014)

Plenty of people get second opinions. The insurance company can't force anyone to get on the horse.


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## Illusion100 (29 July 2014)

Faracat said:



			Plenty of people get second opinions. The insurance company can't force anyone to get on the horse.
		
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Good to know this is still standard re: insurance!

Just feel really bad for the horse, lovely person and this bucking behaviour is certainly not representative of character. 

Thank you for the advice, much appreciated.


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## ester (29 July 2014)

If the bone scan vets will not take on the case further I would transfer to an alternative practice, and get them to request all of the previous notes and reports and investigate from there. This happens with small animals all the time! and doesn't usually effect the insurance situation. You are allowed to disagree with what the vet says and go elsewhere. I wouldn't try and convince the current vet they are wrong/bute trial is wrong as they don't always like being told you disagree and I wouldn't trust them to work up the back issue properly and risk proving themselves wrong.


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## cptrayes (29 July 2014)

Illusion100 said:



			Sounds strange but I was more concerned that riding would cause the horse damage! 

I just don't get why the horse apparently did not buck once during the 4 weeks with trainer but bucked after returning home? Ridden by trainer at home yard day horse came back, ridden by owner day after (no bucking), horse had next day off, then home lesson with trainer the next day owner, bucked off as soon as bum in saddle? 

The vet that did bone can had no interest in investigating spine further, sent horse back to initial vets to do a lameness work-up they were supposed to do before the performed the bone scan?

My brain is melting.....
		
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That sounds like medication wearing off to me.  But it could also just have been a very dominant rider who could temporarily bully the horse into submission and it took the horse a couple of days to work it out.

Did the weather change? My kissing spines horse was very different in cold weather. Maybe the trainer heated him up with infra red before he rode?


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## cptrayes (29 July 2014)

Illusion100 said:



			Would the insurance company not refuse to pay if the client refused to follow the vet advice and recommended course of action?
		
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Yes, which is why you must get a second opinion by moving the horse to another vet.


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## Illusion100 (29 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			That sounds like medication wearing off to me.  But it could also just have been a very dominant rider who could temporarily bully the horse into submission and it took the horse a couple of days to work it out.

Did the weather change? My kissing spines horse was very different in cold weather. Maybe the trainer heated him up with infra red before he rode?
		
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It was another hot day, the weather here has been pretty consistent, as in too blooming hot!

The trainer always used a massage pad for up to an hr before riding horse, apparently they did this with all of the horses under their care. The day after horse had bucked owner off, it had a tight back but it has since softened back up again.


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## Illusion100 (29 July 2014)

ester said:



			If the bone scan vets will not take on the case further I would transfer to an alternative practice, and get them to request all of the previous notes and reports and investigate from there. This happens with small animals all the time! and doesn't usually effect the insurance situation. You are allowed to disagree with what the vet says and go elsewhere. I wouldn't try and convince the current vet they are wrong/bute trial is wrong as they don't always like being told you disagree and I wouldn't trust them to work up the back issue properly and risk proving themselves wrong.
		
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Great, thanks for the info!

Owner waiting on vets to get back re: total costs so far, then making a decision re: spinal x-rays.

This is probably my paranoia talking but I'm not sure I entirely trust the situation here. At the 1st vet visit, initial vet seemed to defend the trainer (as in they felt trainer would know if horse not right, probably as vet previously approved/recommended the trainer to the owner!) BEFORE they actually examined the horse. Which on that occasion was, well not lame per say, but certainly not normal, prompting the whole do a bone scan but only investigate the RH inconclusively, ignore the back part and chuck some bute at it. I just can't get my tiny brain around it unless I'm right to be a bit suspicious....


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## cptrayes (29 July 2014)

Illusion100 said:



			It was another hot day, the weather here has been pretty consistent, as in too blooming hot!

The trainer always used a massage pad for up to an hr before riding horse, apparently they did this with all of the horses under their care. The day after horse had bucked owner off, it had a tight back but it has since softened back up again.
		
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Well there's your answer then. In the early days, my horse responded very positively to heat and many respond very well to massage pads. Couple that with a very strong rider, and the horse decided not to buck. Remove the massage, provide a less authoritative rider, and the horse bucks.

I think I'm going to eat my hat if this horse does not have kissing spines on x ray!


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## Illusion100 (29 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Well there's your answer then. In the early days, my horse responded very positively to heat and many respond very well to massage pads. Couple that with a very strong rider, and the horse decided not to buck. Remove the massage, provide a less authoritative rider, and the horse bucks.

I think I'm going to eat my hat if this horse does not have kissing spines on x ray!
		
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I hope it's not a really big hat you have?! 

Since been informed they didn't scan the entire spine either, apparently scanning only up to just behind the withers or thereabouts. Not very helpful considering they charged £1400 for it for 1/2 to 2/3rds of the spine. Seems expensive to me but anyway. 

How is your horse coping?


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## Goldenstar (29 July 2014)

These vets sound awful .


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## ozpoz (29 July 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			These vets sound awful .
		
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Yes,they do.


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## stormox (29 July 2014)

SO- the story so far-please correct if Im wrong- Buyer buys horse last  Sept, full clean vetting.  Gets it home and it treads on her foot so its turned out until March (6 months later). During this period the dealers move away, horses and everything. Buyer gets on and is bucked off, so she sends it to a trainer for 4 weeks (until April). Trainer says horse is quiet, rider tries to ride horse and is bucked off and it misbehaves with another, better rider from the yard. Trainer washes her hands of it, saying theres a rider at the yard able to ride it.
Then another veterinary investigation with scintography proves there MAY be a problem, but its inconclusive. Now they want to  but it to see how it behaves when ridden....
I think its just grasping  at straws, I don't think it will suddenly turn into the perfect ride on bute. And what if it does? The owner still wont/cant ride it, so theres not much point. I think it should be sold (telling the complete truth), maybe someone will get its back x-rayed and operated on if necessary, be retired as a paddock ornament, or pts.


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## Illusion100 (29 July 2014)

stormox said:



			SO- the story so far-please correct if Im wrong- Buyer buys horse last  Sept, full clean vetting.  Gets it home and it treads on her foot so its turned out until March (6 months later). During this period the dealers move away, horses and everything. Buyer gets on and is bucked off, so she sends it to a trainer for 4 weeks (until April). Trainer says horse is quiet, rider tries to ride horse and is bucked off and it misbehaves with another, better rider from the yard. Trainer washes her hands of it, saying theres a rider at the yard able to ride it.
Then another veterinary investigation with scintography proves there MAY be a problem, but its inconclusive. Now they want to  but it to see how it behaves when ridden....
I think its just grasping  at straws, I don't think it will suddenly turn into the perfect ride on bute. And what if it does? The owner still wont/cant ride it, so theres not much point. I think it should be sold (telling the complete truth), maybe someone will get its back x-rayed and operated on if necessary, be retired as a paddock ornament, or pts.
		
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Yep, apart from I think it was May/June horse went to trainers as it's not long back and the horse threw 4 diff riders before going to trainers.


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## Apercrumbie (29 July 2014)

Firstly, do not get on this horse.  Not only is he almost certainly in pain, you being injured does no one any good at all.  Stop "feeling bad for the owner" - she no longer rides the horse!  

Then push for further scans/x rays.  Nothing will change unless you get to the bottom of what is going on in that poor horse's back.  Tension while mounting is classic "I'm worried this will hurt".  

Even if you cure his pain problems, he will probably still be prone to buck for a while afterwards as he will remember the pain and he now knows how to get out of anything he doesn't want to do.  The owner needs to be prepared that this horse may never be "fixed".


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## Goldenstar (29 July 2014)

Poor horse .
I don't know what the money situation is and I don't insure my horses so I am used  to pleasing myself in this area .
If I where in this situation I would get the horse off for a 'lack of performance ' work up from a another carefully chosen vet .
I would get a ACPAT trained physio I trusted to go right over the horse again with a fresh pair of eyes .
A full set of back X-rays would seem an essential next step.
I have lost count of how many horses I have known who bucked off weaker riders ( including one of our own ) but worked for a strong determined rider and turned out in the end to carrying a serious problem .
Horrible all round ,OP don't get hurt it's just not worth it .
Neck issues can cause this sort of behaviour as well.


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## Illusion100 (30 July 2014)

Apercrumbie said:



			Firstly, do not get on this horse.  Not only is he almost certainly in pain, you being injured does no one any good at all.  Stop "feeling bad for the owner" - she no longer rides the horse!  

Then push for further scans/x rays.  Nothing will change unless you get to the bottom of what is going on in that poor horse's back.  Tension while mounting is classic "I'm worried this will hurt".  

Even if you cure his pain problems, he will probably still be prone to buck for a while afterwards as he will remember the pain and he now knows how to get out of anything he doesn't want to do.  The owner needs to be prepared that this horse may never be "fixed".
		
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Really appreciate what you're saying. The owner of the horse has really helped me out previously when I got a triple whammy of having a beloved horse PTS, then # pelvis, then Shingles (those were a fun few months!). It's hard not to try and help when they could use it.

It may sound odd but I think if this horse wasn't in pain it would stop bucking, horse is a really nice person and very genuine. Really enjoys getting things right.


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## Illusion100 (30 July 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			Poor horse .
I don't know what the money situation is and I don't insure my horses so I am used  to pleasing myself in this area .
If I where in this situation I would get the horse off for a 'lack of performance ' work up from a another carefully chosen vet .
I would get a ACPAT trained physio I trusted to go right over the horse again with a fresh pair of eyes .
A full set of back X-rays would seem an essential next step.
I have lost count of how many horses I have known who bucked off weaker riders ( including one of our own ) but worked for a strong determined rider and turned out in the end to carrying a serious problem .
Horrible all round ,OP don't get hurt it's just not worth it .
Neck issues can cause this sort of behaviour as well.
		
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I think spinal x-rays are the next port of call. Coincidently, one of the vet practices involved are the ones that severely mentally traumatised my young horse. I did mention this to owner before they took the horse to that practice.

Personally I believe the horse is abnormal on the right rein. Not being rude, or was deliberately ignoring me, just did not want to flex to the right from any aspect of horses body. Left hand side was normal response for a horse of that age and training, right hand side was like a poker.


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## LadyGascoyne (30 July 2014)

Just a different thought- total unresponsiveness on one side.. Something neurological maybe? Or almost stroke-like symptoms?

Could the bucking be due to lack of balance then?


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## Apercrumbie (30 July 2014)

Illusion100 said:



			Really appreciate what you're saying. The owner of the horse has really helped me out previously when I got a triple whammy of having a beloved horse PTS, then # pelvis, then Shingles (those were a fun few months!). It's hard not to try and help when they could use it.
		
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Sorry but if that person is even vaguely a friend they will not ask or expect you to get on that horse!  You said he threw off four differents riders before he even went for training and has completely reverted since.  The horse means business and the owner is being unbelievably irresponsible and selfish by letting other people ride him before his physical issues have been sorted.


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## Illusion100 (30 July 2014)

LadyGascoyne said:



			Just a different thought- total unresponsiveness on one side.. Something neurological maybe? Or almost stroke-like symptoms?

Could the bucking be due to lack of balance then?
		
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Maybe I didn't explain that well, sorry!

I could have forced the horse to flex to the right, horse would have responded with enough pressure. However imo it is abnormal for a horse to resist both hand and leg to a significant extent on one side only considering it had just been pro schooled for 4 weeks.

From what the trainer and physio said (from watching trainer riding horse), horse worked very well in walk and trot, slightly unbalanced in canter.

Horse will carrot flex to both sides (better to left) and put hindquarters underneath well when asked to turn tight circle on the ground, horse will also 'leg yield' well enough (for a first try!) on the ground also. Problem seems to be ridden work. Other than that the horse is a pleasure really.

I just hope the problem is found.


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## Illusion100 (30 July 2014)

Apercrumbie said:



			Sorry but if that person is even vaguely a friend they will not ask or expect you to get on that horse!  You said he threw off four differents riders before he even went for training and has completely reverted since.  The horse means business and the owner is being unbelievably irresponsible and selfish by letting other people ride him before his physical issues have been sorted.
		
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The owner did not ask or even hint, I offered. Owner very unhappy about it but I forced the issue, so if anyone is to blame it's myself! 

I did ride the horse once after owner bucked off. At that point we thought horse was just being naughty given what we had been told, i.e no issue with trainer. It was only after riding the horse (before bone scan) that this severe unhappiness to flex to the right was picked up on, and so the horse went down the vet route and now a ridden bute trial recommended, rightly or wrongly.

However, in light of the fact several HHO's (is that the right term?) have come forward identifying similar experiences that involved KS or #'s, bute is very likely to be useless and spinal x-rays are strongly recommended, the previous plan of going with a ridden bute trial is being strongly re-evaluated as we now feel that riding the horse is extremely unfair if it is in pain and dangerous. The vets may have misdiagnosed the issue and further investigations need done.


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## Magicmillbrook (30 July 2014)

Poor owner, and how lucky (for you both) to have such supportive friends.  I am not experienced in this field, but as an impartial observer I think, given the amount of money that has been spent on the horse already the extra expense of x-rays is negligible.  I would have them done (hopefully they would be covered by insurance), then you both would have a clearer idea of what you are faced with and a decision can be made - treatment/surgery, PTS, re-homing as a companion  or if nothing found perhaps selling with full disclosure to an experienced person.  I am dearly hoping for a happy ending.


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## Illusion100 (30 July 2014)

Magicmillbrook said:



			Poor owner, and how lucky (for you both) to have such supportive friends.  I am not experienced in this field, but as an impartial observer I think, given the amount of money that has been spent on the horse already the extra expense of x-rays is negligible.  I would have them done (hopefully they would be covered by insurance), then you both would have a clearer idea of what you are faced with and a decision can be made - treatment/surgery, PTS, re-homing as a companion  or if nothing found perhaps selling with full disclosure to an experienced person.  I am dearly hoping for a happy ending.
		
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Thank you. Owner is very distressed about the whole situation (rightly so) and will really appreciate the support. I would also be delighted if my final update was indeed the happy ending I think the owner and horse deserve.


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## Goldenstar (30 July 2014)

Illusion100 said:



			The owner did not ask or even hint, I offered. Owner very unhappy about it but I forced the issue, so if anyone is to blame it's myself! 

I did ride the horse once after owner bucked off. At that point we thought horse was just being naughty given what we had been told, i.e no issue with trainer. It was only after riding the horse (before bone scan) that this severe unhappiness to flex to the right was picked up on, and so the horse went down the vet route and now a ridden bute trial recommended, rightly or wrongly.

However, in light of the fact several HHO's (is that the right term?) have come forward identifying similar experiences that involved KS or #'s, bute is very likely to be useless and spinal x-rays are strongly recommended, the previous plan of going with a ridden bute trial is being strongly re-evaluated as we now feel that riding the horse is extremely unfair if it is in pain and dangerous. The vets may have misdiagnosed the issue and further investigations need done.
		
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I have two KS horses both responded well to danilon .
So I don't think it's a given a pain killer trial won't work .


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## Illusion100 (30 July 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			I have two KS horses both responded well to danilon .
So I don't think it's a given a pain killer trial won't work .
		
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Aren't Danilon and Bute NSAID's? (Or am I missing something....yet again!)

Did you do a ridden bute/danilon trial before KS diagnosed? How did they go?


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## springtime1331 (30 July 2014)

My mare had a bute trial (3 per day) for a fortnight before going for a bone scan. She really improved during the trial and bone scan revealed serious KS, so in my case the NSAIDs did decrease pain.


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## cptrayes (30 July 2014)

mine was fine with four a day but bucked again on two a day.  

Is anyone else puzzled why vets are going straight for very expensive bone scans before doing much less expensive xrays????


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## Illusion100 (30 July 2014)

Think horse on 2 per day. Beginning to think this is not enough!

Anti-inflammatories and painkillers are funny things though with bony change.

What works for 1 issue doesn't always for the same issue in another individual and the amount of bony change seen via diagnostics does not always correlate to pain experienced. (Or so my spinal surgeon told me!)

Springtime, Did your mare throw you off/bucking before trial and stopped with NSAID's or was it 'lack of performance' that prompted the investigation?

Yep, CTP and why ignore the highlighted area in the back the bone scan identified. However they didn't x-ray the RH hock, pastern or fetlock either when horse went in for work-up.


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## Jenna1406 (30 July 2014)

I hope they get to the bottom of everything with this poor horse.  You are a great person stepping in to help the owner like that, not many people like you.

My horse has recently been diagnosed with slight impingement of the spine and I knew something was wrong because she was bucking.  

Hope you get it sorted.

Jenna


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## Illusion100 (30 July 2014)

Jenna1406 said:



			I hope they get to the bottom of everything with this poor horse.  You are a great person stepping in to help the owner like that, not many people like you.

My horse has recently been diagnosed with slight impingement of the spine and I knew something was wrong because she was bucking.  

Hope you get it sorted.

Jenna
		
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Thank you.

Sorry to hear about your mare, how is she now? What treatment was advised if you don't mind me asking?


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## Slightlyconfused (30 July 2014)

Have pm you.


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## be positive (30 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			mine was fine with four a day but bucked again on two a day.  

Is anyone else puzzled why vets are going straight for very expensive bone scans before doing much less expensive xrays????
		
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It seems to be the way they are going, mine was booked for MRI before xrays were done, he had a clear fracture nowhere near the area that was to be MRI'd  he  only had xrays at my insistence, the vet looked somewhat embarrassed, I was not happy as had been asking for weeks for them but she was pushing for the MRI.

I do not see the point of the bonescan if they do not then xray the areas that show as potential problems, sending the OPs horse home with only half the work done seems puzzling to say the least.


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## Goldenstar (30 July 2014)

Illusion100 said:



			Aren't Danilon and Bute NSAID's? (Or am I missing something....yet again!)

Did you do a ridden bute/danilon trial before KS diagnosed? How did they go?[/


Both where older both high mileage horses , both came to me in their teens .
I suspected KS for both for a while both where normally and well muscled for type the WB carrying more muscle than the near TB.
After diagnosis ( by X-ray ) which gave in each case gave a clear picture of what was of what was going on I put gave them danilon ( I never use bute now ) and worked them both showed good results .
I knew then I could control their pain so they had lighter work load complimentary therapies , lots of turn out exercise included lots of targeted lunging and being led from other horses  extra Physio and danilon was used to manage times of discomfort in both horses the lighter work load was hunting so not exactly no work but they had fun one went on to be PTS for something else and the others symptons did develop and he was PTS just before his 20th birthday .
So these two are not really the same to ' your ' case.
There is I am sure something wrong with this horse you need to find it .
I really wish you would demand that they X-ray the horses back before you risk your back (and other bits of you ) riding him .
		
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## smellsofhorse (30 July 2014)

Was horses vetted and ridden, tested etc before purchase?

Did new owner actually see horse being ridden by trainer?

Have all obvious tack, teeth, back lameness etc been checked?


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## Illusion100 (30 July 2014)

Goldenstar said:





Illusion100 said:



			Aren't Danilon and Bute NSAID's? (Or am I missing something....yet again!)

Did you do a ridden bute/danilon trial before KS diagnosed? How did they go?[/


Both where older both high mileage horses , both came to me in their teens .
I suspected KS for both for a while both where normally and well muscled for type the WB carrying more muscle than the near TB.
After diagnosis ( by X-ray ) which gave in each case gave a clear picture of what was of what was going on I put gave them danilon ( I never use bute now ) and worked them both showed good results .
I knew then I could control their pain so they had lighter work load complimentary therapies , lots of turn out exercise included lots of targeted lunging and being led from other horses  extra Physio and danilon was used to manage times of discomfort in both horses the lighter work load was hunting so not exactly no work but they had fun one went on to be PTS for something else and the others symptons did develop and he was PTS just before his 20th birthday .
So these two are not really the same to ' your ' case.
There is I am sure something wrong with this horse you need to find it .
I really wish you would demand that they X-ray the horses back before you risk your back (and other bits of you ) riding him .
		
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Wow, you put a lot of hard work and effort into these horses, they were very fortunate. Kudos!

I can't force the owner to do anything, all I can do is forward all of the advice and experience you guys have given and hope the right decisions are made re: x-rays.

If I decide to get on this horse, it will be a carefully deliberated decision, if I get the lightest indication that the horse is tense or uncomfortable being tacked or when presented to mounting block, or weight placed in stirrup I will not get on. If I don't feel on 'top form' on that day, I won't even bother tacking horse up. I am not saying I will get on the horse but I am that incurably stupid, there is a chance. There is no cure for my stupidity.
		
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## old hand (30 July 2014)

Just a thought. One of mine recently had a full set of x rays on an 8/10 lameness in one foot. X rays inconclusive and the horse was unable to travel as so lame.  had a thermal image done which highlighted hot spots, whilst it does not give a diagnosis it does highlight relative areas of heat,  in this case pinpointing a pedal bone fracture which has now been successfully treated.  Horse sound and back in normal shoes.  Cost £59 with report.  maybe this might highlight the relative areas of heat and therefore which is likely to be causing the most problem, my vet was sceptical until the red hot area was highlighted. I don't think it will show internal issues such as ulcers or liver problems though.


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## Illusion100 (30 July 2014)

smellsofhorse said:



			Was horses vetted and ridden, tested etc before purchase?

Did new owner actually see horse being ridden by trainer?

Have all obvious tack, teeth, back lameness etc been checked?
		
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Horse tried twice by owner and vetted but forgot to ask if 2 or 5.

Owner went and rode horse several times during it's time at trainers yard.

Tack checked (several times), teeth checked and back checked by physio who also treated the horse twice at trainers yard, physio had no concerns.


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## Illusion100 (30 July 2014)

old hand said:



			Just a thought. One of mine recently had a full set of x rays on an 8/10 lameness in one foot. X rays inconclusive and the horse was unable to travel as so lame.  had a thermal image done which highlighted hot spots, whilst it does not give a diagnosis it does highlight relative areas of heat,  in this case pinpointing a pedal bone fracture which has now been successfully treated.  Horse sound and back in normal shoes.  Cost £59 with report.  maybe this might highlight the relative areas of heat and therefore which is likely to be causing the most problem, my vet was sceptical until the red hot area was highlighted. I don't think it will show internal issues such as ulcers or liver problems though.
		
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Horse has had thermo-imaging done, white spot from withers radiating down back. Vets dismissed this.

So glad to hear your horse is ok. OUCH!


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## Slightlyconfused (30 July 2014)

Illusion100 said:





Goldenstar said:



			Wow, you put a lot of hard work and effort into these horses, they were very fortunate. Kudos!

I can't force the owner to do anything, all I can do is forward all of the advice and experience you guys have given and hope the right decisions are made re: x-rays.

If I decide to get on this horse, it will be a carefully deliberated decision, if I get the lightest indication that the horse is tense or uncomfortable being tacked or when presented to mounting block, or weight placed in stirrup I will not get on. If I don't feel on 'top form' on that day, I won't even bother tacking horse up. I am not saying I will get on the horse but I am that incurably stupid, there is a chance. There is no cure for my stupidity.
		
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if there was nothing wrong with our girl following vet checks she was going to be sent to a pro as she had my sister off so many times, it might be wise to look at one of those backing dummy thingys.....don't know the name, so he and freak out with a weight on his back with out hurting any one.....if his xrays come back clear.
		
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## Illusion100 (31 July 2014)

Slightlyconfused said:





Illusion100 said:



			if there was nothing wrong with our girl following vet checks she was going to be sent to a pro as she had my sister off so many times, it might be wise to look at one of those backing dummy thingys.....don't know the name, so he and freak out with a weight on his back with out hurting any one.....if his xrays come back clear.
		
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I've always wanted one of those backing dummy thingys too but then I feel it would be having more fun than I would. 

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## stormox (31 July 2014)

Illusion 100, if you do get on this horse, why do everything as its always been done- mounting block, foot in stirrup..... why not treat it like an unbroken horse, get someone to leg you over, lay over while its led around guage reaction. You can slip off easily then if it starts bucking and wont get hurt, or can gradually wriggle your right leg over if all is going well?


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## Illusion100 (31 July 2014)

stormox said:



			Illusion 100, if you do get on this horse, why do everything as its always been done- mounting block, foot in stirrup..... why not treat it like an unbroken horse, get someone to leg you over, lay over while its led around guage reaction. You can slip off easily then if it starts bucking and wont get hurt, or can gradually wriggle your right leg over if all is going well?
		
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Leaning over and having someone lead would be initially be another safety precaution, before the stirrup exercise, IF I do decide to get on.

I would have someone leg me up, however I am the worst most useless person at getting a leg up in the world, ever. I don't know why I cannot carry out this simple task, mount from ground, check, mounting block, check, leg up, useless! Apparently it's comical, all my co-ordination goes out the window. Even calm, experienced horses have a look of 'what just happened?'


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## PollyP99 (31 July 2014)

Illusion100 said:



			Leaning over and having someone lead would be initially be another safety precaution, before the stirrup exercise, IF I do decide to get on.

I would have someone leg me up, however I am the worst most useless person at getting a leg up in the world, ever. I don't know why I cannot carry out this simple task, mount from ground, check, mounting block, check, leg up, useless! Apparently it's comical, all my co-ordination goes out the window. Even calm, experienced horses have a look of 'what just happened?'
		
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I'm a tit with a leg up too, with me it's total lack of coordination as in when to bounce when to jump, end doing opposite to the giver of said leg up and landing in a weird heap on horse, not recommended for a nervy mounter!


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## Illusion100 (31 July 2014)

PollyP99 said:



			I'm a tit with a leg up too, with me it's total lack of coordination as in when to bounce when to jump, end doing opposite to the giver of said leg up and landing in a weird heap on horse, not recommended for a nervy mounter!
		
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Me too! We should share humiliating videos, you know, for our self-esteem!


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## cptrayes (31 July 2014)

Oh can I join the TWALU club???  I thought it was just me!

When my most recent horse was backed for me I said I don't care if he canters but you must be able to mount from the stirrup!!


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## Illusion100 (31 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Oh can I join the TWALU club???  I thought it was just me!

When my most recent horse was backed for me I said I don't care if he canters but you must be able to mount from the stirrup!!
		
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You can only join this elite club if you are TRULY awful at it! If people don't burst out laughing at you or stand there shaking their heads in bewilderment, you don't qualify!

I don't want anybody scamming a membership...


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## cptrayes (31 July 2014)

Oh I'm hopeless!  I still have a damaged back from where I mistimed getting on a newly broken horse and touched its hip bone!  People truly fall around when I have a leg up - me, the person trying to leg me up, anyone standing too close


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## stormox (31 July 2014)

Im not good either ...1-2-3 they push and I don't jump, else I jump and they don't push!! worst thing was when I got a good leg up- but the horse peed off when I was almost in the saddle,I went with it but the legger kept a fierce grip on my leg  splat


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## Illusion100 (31 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Oh I'm hopeless!  I still have a damaged back from where I mistimed getting on a newly broken horse and touched its hip bone!  People truly fall around when I have a leg up - me, the person trying to leg me up, anyone standing too close  

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Ok, you can join, you are suitably diabolical at leg ups to qualify! lol!

Because I'm quite little I always get 'over legged-up', nearly resulting in me falling off other side of horse head first, so I try to counter-act this predicament and end result looks like someone trying to shove a reluctant luggage bag into the plane over-head baggage locker.....


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## cptrayes (1 August 2014)

Illusion100 said:



			Because I'm quite little I always get 'over legged-up', nearly resulting in me falling off other side of horse head first, so I try to counter-act this predicament and end result looks like someone trying to shove a reluctant luggage bag into the plane over-head baggage locker.....
		
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## Illusion100 (1 August 2014)

stormox said:



			Im not good either ...1-2-3 they push and I don't jump, else I jump and they don't push!! worst thing was when I got a good leg up- but the horse peed off when I was almost in the saddle,I went with it but the legger kept a fierce grip on my leg  splat
		
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Oh dear! The legger-upper is officially sacked! 

I apologise but the way you've described it is very funny, however I do hope you were ok!


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## nuttychestnut (3 August 2014)

Nothing to add regarding treatment. But if the vets are pushing for the horse to be ridden, could you not hire an ardall safety rider and lunge or long rein the horse? Not sure if it weighs the same as a person, but better to hurt a dummy than yourself.


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## Illusion100 (4 August 2014)

nuttychestnut said:



			Nothing to add regarding treatment. But if the vets are pushing for the horse to be ridden, could you not hire an ardall safety rider and lunge or long rein the horse? Not sure if it weighs the same as a person, but better to hurt a dummy than yourself.
		
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Will suggest hiring a dummy, didn't know you could do that, thanks!


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## Illusion100 (12 August 2014)

Quick update!

Horse still on bute trial. Now happy to be bridled, saddled, led to mounting block but still anxious about weight on back and reins being gathered. 

Long reined horse today and was not happy about rein contact, anxious and resistant to right contact, if allowed to escalate things would have become messy. 

Owner looking to hire a 'dummy'.


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## cptrayes (12 August 2014)

Illusion100 said:



			Quick update!

Horse still on bute trial. Now happy to be bridled, saddled, led to mounting block but still anxious about weight on back and reins being gathered. 

Long reined horse today and was not happy about rein contact, anxious and resistant to right contact, if allowed to escalate things would have become messy. 

Owner looking to hire a 'dummy'.
		
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Why is anyone looking to hire a dummy?

The horse has responded partially to a Bute trial and is unhappy without a rider on board.

Tell the owners to find a vet who will find the pain, poor horse


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## Goldenstar (12 August 2014)

I agree, partial improvement is a result take the horse off the bute and I bet you the reaction will get worse and find a decent vet to help .
Has any examined this horse head and jaw and neck yet .
Finally you can't always get an answer , I sadly PTS one of these before someone squashed .


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## Illusion100 (13 August 2014)

No further diagnostics done to date. 

I can only offer my opinion to Owner. After a small lap of arena on long lines, stated I felt horse was unhappy and anxious. The bridle/saddle has come about well with patient training but the horse is not happy with any further pressure.

I think the dummy may be used to prove a point to Vet. Vet insistent on bute trial and I suppose better a dummy than a person.

Treating Vet thinks behavioural. I don't. 

I cannot dictate to Owner on what to do, only help if and when I can. 

Really hope for x-rays!


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## Fides (13 August 2014)

Point the owner in the direction of this thread...

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...-Explosive-behaviour-from-4yo-opinions-please


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## Illusion100 (27 August 2014)

Update:

Bute trial over, vet visit today. Owner at work so just vet and I. They asked how bute trial went, I said not great. Vet immediately claimed that that meant the bucking etc was behavioural. I disagreed. Trot up and lunge later, vets opinion was they have no further diagnostics they can do, horse not showing anything that would bother them and only answer is to send horse to somewhere like Newmarket for MRI etc, which will cost more than the horse is insured for and they probably won't find anything. I didn't suggest x-rays, vet didn't mention them but apparently they believe x-rays aren't viable but bone scan and MRI are!

They admitted they hadn't discussed the horse with the referral practice that performed bone scan (that vet stated to owner that the bone scan highlighted back issue that would be enough to warrant bucking), so owner getting in contact with them next and see what they suggest as both practices appear to have a different view on bone scan report. If referral practise changes their story re: highlighted area NOT enough to warrant bucking, then I believe the plan is to get a second opinion and x-rays.

I don't understand why current vet does not want to carry out some x-rays, they get paid for them after all! Very unusual.....


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## be positive (27 August 2014)

I still don't understand why they didn't xray after the bone scan showed an area of concern in the back, the bone scan is not definitive just a guide to where requires further investigation, as you say the vet gets paid whether he finds anything or not, most will do a few simple xrays without all this drama, maybe they prefer the diagnosis of behavioural as they can walk away without having to do any more.
I am also unsure why they would refer for MRI, it is not really suitable for this type of issue, it can only see a tiny area and you would expect the horse to have been xrayed first, MRI is extremely expensive compared with the cost of xrays.


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## Illusion100 (27 August 2014)

be positive said:



			I still don't understand why they didn't xray after the bone scan showed an area of concern in the back, the bone scan is not definitive just a guide to where requires further investigation, as you say the vet gets paid whether he finds anything or not, most will do a few simple xrays without all this drama, maybe they prefer the diagnosis of behavioural as they can walk away without having to do any more.
I am also unsure why they would refer for MRI, it is not really suitable for this type of issue, it can only see a tiny area and you would expect the horse to have been xrayed first, MRI is extremely expensive compared with the cost of xrays.
		
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Me neither, when I took horse up to referral vets they said to owner and myself they had decided to swop original idea, do bone scan first and then investigate anything that it highlights. After bone scan, next thing was referral vets said was, nope going back to original vets for them to do it instead. These vets did inconclusive hindlimb lameness work-up and recommended bute trial. 

The 'reason' being if the bone scan highlighted area in LH but they didn't find anything meant no point investigating the back, bucking therefore behavioural and will prove this by doing a bute trial. If horse difficult on bute (2 sachets per day) then nothing physically wrong with horse. And that was certainly what vet was sticking to again today.

What?????!!!!!.............................

It was almost as if vet trying to dissuade against further diagnostics.  This is just so odd as vets do seem to enjoy extracting as much money as they can!

does sense it not make


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## Goldenstar (27 August 2014)

These vets just sound awful .
Why the hooting heck won't they just do a few X-rays .


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## be positive (27 August 2014)

It makes absolutely no sense, a bute trial is limited and hardly scientific, just because the hind limb work up was inconclusive does not mean the bone scan was a waste of time and money, or does it prove exactly that!

I thought bute trials were not that conclusive for back pain and still cannot work out why they don't want to xray, as you say they are usually more than happy to run diagnostics until the insurance runs out.


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## Goldenstar (27 August 2014)

I have both good and no result at all from bute trials on back pain .
But it's the first thing you taught about bute trials is that if they can prove a horse has pain but they can't prove a horse has no pain .
It's difficult for OP it's not her horse she can only advise the owner and if the owner trusts the vet there's nothing OP can do but stay safe and try to be a advocate for the horse .


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## crabbymare (27 August 2014)

I dont understand the vets at all and if it was me I think I would have had strong words with them


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## Illusion100 (27 August 2014)

Spoke to owner, gave opinion and a more detailed overview of conversation with vet today (earlier was just a quick check-in to confirm vet visit done and important points as they were at work). Looks like they are phoning current vets tomorrow and telling them, thanks but no thanks (yay!). Then contacting referral vets and asking them to investigate the bone scan indication in the spine, if they even get a whiff of these vets back-tracking or supporting soon to fired vets, they will then get a second opinion.

So hopefully this horse will be getting spinal x-rays within a few weeks and won't be ridden in interim!


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## Goldenstar (27 August 2014)

Result OP .
Good for you for hanging in there many would not have bothered .


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## Illusion100 (27 August 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			Result OP .
Good for you for hanging in there many would not have bothered .
		
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Thanks, there were times when I was literally 'hanging in there'! IMO, a calm, sensible horse with manners to burn on the ground does not react/buck/rear that violently under saddle without a good reason. I'm glad this bute trial is over and x-rays are definitely next. However, I will be gutted for horse and owner if x-rays show nothing.

It's awful to hope a horse has something physically wrong.


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## ester (27 August 2014)

Good news in the end then, I wouldn't persist with current vets either and the bone scan vets already have some info and clearly think there is something there to work up a bit. It would be interesting to hear any final diagnosis if you don't mind updating.


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## Illusion100 (27 August 2014)

ester said:



			Good news in the end then, I wouldn't persist with current vets either and the bone scan vets already have some info and clearly think there is something there to work up a bit. It would be interesting to hear any final diagnosis if you don't mind updating.
		
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No probs, updates will be coming when I have anything further. It's been lovely to have all the moral support in a situation I'm involved in but at the same time is out of my hands.

So a big thank you to everyone and I hope final update is about a happy ending.


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## Illusion100 (28 August 2014)

What is this vet on?

After yesterday (to me) dismissing any physical pain, they've done everything they could, only option is to send to Newmarket for vastly expensive and probably not worth it diagnostics, then they called and said the same to Owner today. Owner disagreed MRI etc needed at this point and mentioned spinal x-rays....... Vet said oh, yes that would be suitable in this case, can do them here for you!

How unbelievable is that???!!!!

Owner replied, Errrr, no, I'll be taking horse elsewhere thanks very much. Good on them!!


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## crabbymare (28 August 2014)

Well done to the owner those vets sound like they are not exactly on the ball with regard to non obvious diagnostics


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## liberty and tommy (28 August 2014)

Illusion100 said:



			Horse purchased and the moment a rider sat on back, would buck until rider dumped.

Horse sent to Trainer and was sent back recently deemed suitable for Novice riders and without any issues. 

Trainer came to give lesson 3 days after horse home and horse, as soon as rider/owner got on, bucked until rider was dumped on ground for no apparent reason. (Horse was ridden day after coming home by owner and did not buck)

A more experienced rider got on horse, moment asked to walk on horse spun 180 and legged it up arena. 

Trainer said can't believe horse bucked first rider off, but they have the other rider to ride horse for them, left yard and cashed the cheques paid by client. 

Horse owner has fractured vertebrae and very distressed.

Advice please!
		
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in my opinion they dont sound very experienced. get the vet out


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## Illusion100 (28 August 2014)

liberty and tommy said:



			in my opinion they dont sound very experienced. get the vet out
		
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Have you read the thread completely? In your opinion, who exactly doesn't sound experienced? #Confused


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## Goldenstar (28 August 2014)

Well you could not make it up could you OP.
It's not nice to say but I really really hope the X-rays fine something and I am very glad the owner is going back to the vets that did the bone scan .
I really hope you get an answer for the horses sake .


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## Illusion100 (28 August 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			Well you could not make it up could you OP.
It's not nice to say but I really really hope the X-rays fine something and I am very glad the owner is going back to the vets that did the bone scan .
I really hope you get an answer for the horses sake .
		
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I wish I was making it up.... The whole situation re: vet has been a dangerous joke, and a p*ss poor one at that!

Owner got in contact with an old friend whose horse was diagnosed with KS at referral vets. Owner calling them back to ask for same vet to examine this horse. I too, in the wish I didn't have to way, hope they find something wrong. 

Vet (sacked one) said just to sell the horse how it is to a Hunting Yard as problem behavioural and would do horse world of good. Owner called bluff and said they would if Vet would sign document horse physically sound and bucking etc 'just behavioural'. Guess what...........Vet back-tracked! Complete Farce!


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## Goldenstar (28 August 2014)

Sounds like the owner has woken up and smelt the coffee.
Let's hope you can go forward now .


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## Illusion100 (28 August 2014)

Indeed. 

Next update will hopefully be regarding results of x-rays. Everything crossed for a treatable/manageable problem.


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## Illusion100 (8 September 2014)

Update:

Horse underwent diagnostics today.

Lameness workup and spinal x-rays. Both hocks to be treated in 3 weeks as horse failed those on flexion. Narrowing of the lumbar spine but no KS or anything significant to report.

Vet feels the horse has niggling but not significant pain issues and needs to be put in work and ridden through the anxiety and potential bucking episodes. Feels if horse is fit, muscled and active the issues it has will become manageable for the horse to cope with.

Horse will now spend next 3 weeks being put into decent work, lunging and under saddle, until it is re-examined and has hocks treated in 3 weeks time.

Vet recommends an active home with a more experienced rider/owner. Owner quite devastated but wants a happy future for horse. A potential new owner is already on the cards.


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## Slightlyconfused (8 September 2014)

if there is a narrowing of the lumber spine I would look at getting a smaller saddle, if they can be ridden in a 17 or 16 1/2 " saddle so it takes pressure off that area. We have just changed our tb to a 16 1/2 " as his shoulder motion pushes saddles back when ridden to his other saddle was sitting right on his last rib. 

glad there is no KS but does the narrowing need to be kept an eye on? 

were his hock xrayed? 

glad you now have answers.


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## Illusion100 (8 September 2014)

Slightlyconfused said:



			if there is a narrowing of the lumber spine I would look at getting a smaller saddle, if they can be ridden in a 17 or 16 1/2 " saddle so it takes pressure off that area. We have just changed our tb to a 16 1/2 " as his shoulder motion pushes saddles back when ridden to his other saddle was sitting right on his last rib. 

glad there is no KS but does the narrowing need to be kept an eye on? 

were his hock xrayed? 

glad you now have answers.
		
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Just texted owner to ask if they x-rayed hocks, I think they nerve blocked at least. Saddler out again last week, saddle fine according to them. The narrowing, I believe Vet explained, is between the vertebrae and possibly pinching the relevant ligaments, however in their opinion is not enough to cause bucking.

TBH, at this point, I feel the only help I can give is to assist with fittening/muscling horse and helping find a new home with full disclosure.


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## conniegirl (8 September 2014)

I'd be dubious about any amount of pain not being enough to cause bucking.

I had a connemara who's back was absolutly fine, however he started rearing, bucking and plunging. My first port of call was vet who said nothing wrong with him, EDt checked his teeth but nothing wrong there. Saddler came up looked at saddle and said it possibly needed the tiniest amount of flocking and normaly he wouldnt bother as there wasnt enough to warent it under normal circumstances, I asked him to do it anyway as at the end of my teather and lo and behold behavior stopped instantly!
Saddler said he had never in 30+ years of making and fitting saddles had he ever seen such a reaction to such a miniscule change!


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## Illusion100 (8 September 2014)

Yep, hocks x-rayed with small areas of change.

conniegirl, it's not my horse nor my place to question the Owners decisions. All I can do is help and offer opinion if I'm asked for it.

However, well done for being so astute and solving your boys issues. Credit to you.


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## cptrayes (8 September 2014)

These vets really bug me! The horse is lame in both hocks, but not enough to cause bucking. How do they know it's not enough to cause bucking? My friends had a horse with hock changes and it reared sky high every time it was mounted. Have they checked for PSD, which is often found with hock bone changes and often causes behaviour problems too? I know it had a scintigraph, but the changes in PSD can, I understand, become mechanical and not inflammatory and they wouldn't then show on a scintigraph. 

Thanks for updating us I100. All you can do now is stand back and let the owners sell it to someone else to try and ride the horse through its issues. Lets just hope for the horse's sake that the vet is right about most of it being in its head, otherwise it's in for a life of constant pain.


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## Illusion100 (8 September 2014)

cptrayes said:



			These vets really bug me! The horse is lame in both hocks, but not enough to cause bucking. How do they know it's not enough to cause bucking? My friends had a horse with hock changes and it reared sky high every time it was mounted. Have they checked for PSD, which is often found with hock bone changes and often causes behaviour problems too? I know it had a scintigraph, but the changes in PSD can, I understand, become mechanical and not inflammatory and they wouldn't then show on a scintigraph. 

Thanks for updating us I100. All you can do now is stand back and let the owners sell it to someone else to try and ride the horse through its issues. Lets just hope for the horse's sake that the vet is right about most of it being in its head, otherwise it's in for a life of constant pain.
		
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Hiya, I wasn't there today with horse as I am pretty poorly atm. I just got a phonecall from very emotional owner and didn't really want to press them asking exactly what vet had done.

Hopefully if I feel well enough I will be heading up to see my lad tomorrow (other lovely liverys checking him over in meantime!), will hopefully see owner and chat in more detail. 

I was sure this horse had an issue with it's withers but x-rays are negative. X-rays picked up narrowing on lumbar area that Physio and thermo-imaging also picked up on but nothing significant according to vet opinion.

Not sure why hocks not treated today. They want the horse worked on bute for next 3 weeks before injecting them. 

I just don't know what to think anymore as horse is lovely person and I can't do a thing to make it right for it.


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## Amymay (8 September 2014)

You're not going to get on it though, are you illusion 100?


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## Illusion100 (8 September 2014)

amymay said:



			You're not going to get on it though, are you illusion 100?
		
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At this stage in time, no,  I'm too poorly to ride any horse.


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## Amymay (8 September 2014)

Good


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## Pearlsasinger (8 September 2014)

Illusion100 said:



			At this stage in time, no,  I'm too poorly to ride any horse.
		
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Although I wouldn't wish illness on you, I'm pleased to hear that, iyswim.

I simply cannot understand how the vet can say that the pain isn't enough to make the horse behave as he is doing!  
I have had enough horses to know that they all react differently to pain and would expect an experienced vet to have seen far more horses in pain than I have.


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## Illusion100 (8 September 2014)

Pearlsasinger said:



			Although I wouldn't wish illness on you, I'm pleased to hear that, iyswim.

I simply cannot understand how the vet can say that the pain isn't enough to make the horse behave as he is doing!  
I have had enough horses to know that they all react differently to pain and would expect an experienced vet to have seen far more horses in pain than I have.
		
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iyswim? What does that stand for *feels stupid*!! lol!

This latest advice/opinion came from a referral vet practice that maintains a high reputation. Just don't know what to think anymore.


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## Pearlsasinger (8 September 2014)

If you see what I mean - sorry, it is very annoying when people use abbreviations that aren't obvious.

I know this advice was from the referral vet, I just don't understand how they can know how much pain an individual horse can put up with, or how they will express that pain.


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## be positive (8 September 2014)

Pearlsasinger said:



			Although I wouldn't wish illness on you, I'm pleased to hear that, iyswim.

I simply cannot understand how the vet can say that the pain isn't enough to make the horse behave as he is doing!  
I have had enough horses to know that they all react differently to pain and would expect an experienced vet to have seen far more horses in pain than I have.
		
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It amazes me that so called experienced equine vets, who are supposed to be intelligent, can make such sweeping generalisations, to state that the pain isn't enough when they really cannot guess what is going on with the horses brain when it feels and reacts to the pain. 
They do all react differently, that is why the vets need to listen to the owners more carefully, the owners are the ones that deal with the horse and often  sense when a horse is not right, this horse is either in real pain or has become so sensitive that he reacts just in case it may hurt, either way it is still real to him, if he has been carrying a hock issue for some time there will be other areas effected and they may also hurt, maybe not much but to him it all adds up to being too much to cope with.

I hope he can be helped but fear that his reaction may take longer to go than the actual pain he is running from, he is still young enough to come through it if he is given plenty of time.


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## Illusion100 (8 September 2014)

Pearlsasinger said:



			If you see what I mean - sorry, it is very annoying when people use abbreviations that aren't obvious.

I know this advice was from the referral vet, I just don't understand how they can know how much pain an individual horse can put up with, or how they will express that pain.
		
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It's more likely I'm just not on the ball with abbreviations, thanks for explaining!

I agree with you, each horse is different in coping with and expressing pain and it can't necessarily be quantified by a vet opinion.


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## Illusion100 (8 September 2014)

be positive said:



			It amazes me that so called experienced equine vets, who are supposed to be intelligent, can make such sweeping generalisations, to state that the pain isn't enough when they really cannot guess what is going on with the horses brain when it feels and reacts to the pain. 
They do all react differently, that is why the vets need to listen to the owners more carefully, the owners are the ones that deal with the horse and often  sense when a horse is not right, this horse is either in real pain or has become so sensitive that he reacts just in case it may hurt, either way it is still real to him, if he has been carrying a hock issue for some time there will be other areas effected and they may also hurt, maybe not much but to him it all adds up to being too much to cope with.

I hope he can be helped but fear that his reaction may take longer to go than the actual pain he is running from, he is still young enough to come through it if he is given plenty of time.
		
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Do not disagree with anything in your comment. Horse is 7 yr old, has been re-backed at least twice, still unhappy under saddle, imo. 

Not sure what is best for this horse.


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## Darremi (8 September 2014)

Has the horse been scoped for gastrointestinal ulcers? They can cause significant behavioural changes such as bucking, rearing and anxiety related behaviours that may masquerade as a musculo-skeletal issue...


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## GlamourDol (8 September 2014)

Where abouts in the country are you? If he was mine I would be taking him straight to Bushys at Breadstone and insisting they took a look at the x rays.

Everything about this horse is screaming KS to me, what you are saying is very similar to one on our yard. 

Poor poor horse that none of the vets are listening. IME a horse in pain is far more dangerous than a naughty horse as they will do anything to get away from what is hurting, please please don't get on it, it is not worth the risk.

Have the vets done a valium trial or anything like that?


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## Illusion100 (8 September 2014)

Darremi said:



			Has the horse been scoped for gastrointestinal ulcers? They can cause significant behavioural changes such as bucking, rearing and anxiety related behaviours that may masquerade as a musculo-skeletal issue...
		
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I have mentioned that possibility to Owner, suggested they put this to Vet and have horse scoped. So far no Vet has indicated ulcers as a possible factor. Will bring subject of ulcers up again to owner again asap.


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## Sugar_and_Spice (9 September 2014)

Tbh I'm hoping the horse breaks a leg in the field and gets PTS. At least then the poor thing won't be suffering any more. The vets in this situation have been rubbish but the owner is as bad, they're not being determined enough with insisting on the problem being found. Who do they think is going to buy this horse with a bad back, at any price however cheap? Someone looking for a project maybe, hoping to fix it quick and sell on for a profit, who may not be so keen on PTS themselves if the problem can't be quickly or easily fixed, perhaps preferring to try to get their money back by selling on again. Or worse, someone promising a forever home who drugs the horse up then sells it on to the first unsuspecting person who wants it. Poor poor horse.


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## be positive (9 September 2014)

Sugar_and_Spice said:



			Tbh I'm hoping the horse breaks a leg in the field and gets PTS. At least then the poor thing won't be suffering any more. The vets in this situation have been rubbish but the owner is as bad, they're not being determined enough with insisting on the problem being found. Who do they think is going to buy this horse with a bad back, at any price however cheap? Someone looking for a project maybe, hoping to fix it quick and sell on for a profit, who may not be so keen on PTS themselves if the problem can't be quickly or easily fixed, perhaps preferring to try to get their money back by selling on again. Or worse, someone promising a forever home who drugs the horse up then sells it on to the first unsuspecting person who wants it. Poor poor horse.
		
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While I agree on most of your post to say the owner is just as bad is rather unfair, the OP says the owner is inexperienced and that will mean she has limited knowledge in dealing with not just a difficult horse but also with vets who can be obstructive, uncommunicative, they frequently make decisions based on not just clinical diagnostics but on behavioural issues which they judge are part of the whole problem, with little evidence to back up that opinion other than no obvious injury. 
I know how some vets treat their clients they tend to add an air of mystery to their powers, not all are like this, it can be extremely hard to push a vet when they have made up their minds that part of the issue is the owner, naughty horse, novice owner getting bucked off, no obvious source of pain, easy answer behavioural problem, this is I think where they started and are reluctantly moving on due to the owner being fairly persistent but it all takes time.


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## IrishEmma (9 September 2014)

We had a horse that reared when she was to be separated from the rest or when she didnt want to go for a hack. A lot of people said to hit her on the top of the head with my whip but couldnt do it.


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## Illusion100 (10 September 2014)

Well, after a lengthy and emotional phonecall from owner tonight, having the horse PTS may be on the cards.

This journey is not over yet though. There may still be hope yet. Owner is upset/angry/emotional over this ordeal, I will be seeing them tomorrow at yard for a good chat. It's just awful as I have really grown fond of this horse.


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## Illusion100 (10 September 2014)

IrishEmma said:



			We had a horse that reared when she was to be separated from the rest or when she didnt want to go for a hack. A lot of people said to hit her on the top of the head with my whip but couldnt do it.
		
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When I was 13 my 3 yr old pony reared upright when I took him for a hack. Went back to yard very upset. YO/trainer gave me a whip and told me to go back out hacking, if he reared again, whip him across the ears when he went up. I did it and he never reared again.


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## cptrayes (11 September 2014)

be positive said:



			While I agree on most of your post to say the owner is just as bad is rather unfair, the OP says the owner is inexperienced and that will mean she has limited knowledge in dealing with not just a difficult horse but also with vets who can be obstructive, uncommunicative, they frequently make decisions based on not just clinical diagnostics but on behavioural issues which they judge are part of the whole problem, with little evidence to back up that opinion other than no obvious injury. 
I know how some vets treat their clients they tend to add an air of mystery to their powers, not all are like this, it can be extremely hard to push a vet when they have made up their minds that part of the issue is the owner, naughty horse, novice owner getting bucked off, no obvious source of pain, easy answer behavioural problem, this is I think where they started and are reluctantly moving on due to the owner being fairly persistent but it all takes time.
		
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I've had this as a novice owner. For whole year I tried to convince a vet that my horse was ill, but he was convinced I was imagining it as it looked well. Yes, it looked well because I was feeding it twice what it should have needed!  He did  a few things at my insistence, but not enough. Finally I was recommended another vet, who took blood tests, and the horse was put down for almost total kidney failure the next day, having been in pain for a year.

These owners sound as if they are a bit nervous and timid, and the vets they are meeting are assuming that it is them causing the issues. They are simply not listening to the fact that the horse has been started three times over by other people and does not want to be ridden.

Illusion please tell them that there are plenty of us on this forum who would support a decision to put this poor horse down and not pass it on to a likely future of more pain.


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## Illusion100 (12 September 2014)

I don't expect people to agree with this but the horse has a potential buyer.

A lengthy discussion was had today over pro/cons regarding selling vs PTS. 

It will be up to the owner to decide.


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## Illusion100 (12 September 2014)

cptrayes said:



			I've had this as a novice owner. For whole year I tried to convince a vet that my horse was ill, but he was convinced I was imagining it as it looked well. Yes, it looked well because I was feeding it twice what it should have needed!  He did  a few things at my insistence, but not enough. Finally I was recommended another vet, who took blood tests, and the horse was put down for almost total kidney failure the next day, having been in pain for a year.

These owners sound as if they are a bit nervous and timid, and the vets they are meeting are assuming that it is them causing the issues. They are simply not listening to the fact that the horse has been started three times over by other people and does not want to be ridden.

Illusion please tell them that there are plenty of us on this forum who would support a decision to put this poor horse down and not pass it on to a likely future of more pain.
		
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Sorry to hear about your horse, very sad.


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## cptrayes (12 September 2014)

Illusion100 said:



			Sorry to hear about your horse, very sad.
		
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It was a long time ago, and it helped that the vet apologised to me for not listening to me. 

I wouldn't criticize sale to the right owner who definitely will not pass the horse on again if it can't be resolved. I wish the owners luck.


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## Goldenstar (12 September 2014)

Very sad story ,
Poor poor horse I hope he has a soft landing whatever happens to him , and poor owner I hope it does not put her off and she's luckier with the next horse .
If the horse is passed on I hope it's to someone kind as well as brave .
I salute you Op for sticking with this when your own horse is far from easy as well .
There's not always an answer I have had to PTS sleep with out the answer it's a horrible place to be .
I would not pass this horse on but then I have been at this more than forty years and you develop your instinct for the ' not right ' rather than the difficult and sharp over time, I won't condemn this owner she tried hard and will have learnt from this expensive and heartbreaking episode .


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## Illusion100 (13 September 2014)

I genuinely feel this horse could have a happy ridden career. Just not with an unconfident rider. I feel horse may have memory of pain/abusive riders etc. Yes, horse may have minor niggling issues but tbf many, many horses do and it does not prevent them from doing their job. IMO, the diagnostics have not shown anything significant. Owner loves this horse and I appreciate the awful situation they are in. Right home is key and they are willing to bend over backwards to do everything they can to get this horse combined with the right new owner.

However CTP, I will mention to Owner running a blood test, regardless that horse is a very good doer, will winter out without issue and is a lovely horse to be around. Bloods may pick up on something. 

GS, I don't think Owner is put off but will be very careful about a future purchase. I am nervous as I feel I may be asked for my opinion pre-purchase and would hate myself if things went wrong! Also, on Monday I will be getting results of my bloods back. There is a possibility that I may be suffering from a condition that does not mix with my highly strung/anxious/suspicious youngster!

I would like to say thank you to you all for following this thread and offering your advice and support. Very much appreciated.


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## Turks (13 September 2014)

Hi OP, I haven't posted on this but just wanted to wish you all the very best for Monday...


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## Illusion100 (17 October 2014)

Turks said:



			Hi OP, I haven't posted on this but just wanted to wish you all the very best for Monday...
		
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Thank you!


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## Illusion100 (17 October 2014)

Well, the problem has been pin pointed down to anxiety over being mounted. Horse has recently been put into ridden work and with the right approach has not bucked once under saddle. There have been a few tantrums but no bucking. 

Horse is going to its first dressage competition on Sunday, so fingers crossed. 

Owner still wishes to sell though as he is not suitable for a 'Novice Novice'. Horse is more like a 4/5 yr old under saddle and needs reassurance and guidance. However things are looking positive! 

Turks, I just popped on thread to update and saw your comment, thank you! Bloods came back pretty normal which was a surprise but it seems I am definitely on the road to recovery.


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## Goldenstar (17 October 2014)

Good progress forward and a chance of a future for the horse .
I hope his show goes well and a suitable home is just around the corner and his owner has better luck next time .
Why the horse is anxious about mounting is really what you need to know .


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## Illusion100 (17 October 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			Good progress forward and a chance of a future for the horse .
I hope his show goes well and a suitable home is just around the corner and his owner has better luck next time .
Why the horse is anxious about mounting is really what you need to know .
		
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Tbh, I think the horse has initially been very poorly started. Very tight rein contact, heavy thud into saddle and immediately booted forward. Very green under saddle but tries very hard.

Thanks, I have expectations dressage will go well although the weather is to be very windy (typical!).

Right home is key for owner, this horse deserves it. 

Will update after dressage!


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## ladyt25 (17 October 2014)

Very unlikely this is totally 'in the horse's head'. I have been/am going through this with mine and it is very frustrating.  I did not believe he was just being naughty thou but physio couldn't find any issues once we resolved the issues I think i caused by using a poor fitting saddle. 
He has been away for re-backing for 5 weeks after a year of not being sat on after it all went wrong.  However,  his explosions and reactions started again and then he went Lame. Vet referred him and, after various tests,  x-rays and ultrasound followed by a full bone scan they found nothing wrong with his limbs and no kissing spines BUT the ligaments between some spinous processes were inflamed and that was also causing the muscles to be tense. 
He is now on a rehab programme and will have two more sessions of shockwave therapy (he's had steroid injections and some shockwave), a rescan in 3 mths and in the meantime some work to help build up his strength and encourage him to stretch. 
This inflammation would in my opinion make sense as far as his explosions were concerned and I hope we can come out the other end.vets couldn't say if a saddle could have caused it but it certainly didn't help.  I am hopeful I can try back him again in the spring.  He will be 6 then


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## Illusion100 (17 October 2014)

ladyt25 said:



			Very unlikely this is totally 'in the horse's head'. I have been/am going through this with mine and it is very frustrating.  I did not believe he was just being naughty thou but physio couldn't find any issues once we resolved the issues I think i caused by using a poor fitting saddle. 
He has been away for re-backing for 5 weeks after a year of not being sat on after it all went wrong.  However,  his explosions and reactions started again and then he went Lame. Vet referred him and, after various tests,  x-rays and ultrasound followed by a full bone scan they found nothing wrong with his limbs and no kissing spines BUT the ligaments between some spinous processes were inflamed and that was also causing the muscles to be tense. 
He is now on a rehab programme and will have two more sessions of shockwave therapy (he's had steroid injections and some shockwave), a rescan in 3 mths and in the meantime some work to help build up his strength and encourage him to stretch. 
This inflammation would in my opinion make sense as far as his explosions were concerned and I hope we can come out the other end.vets couldn't say if a saddle could have caused it but it certainly didn't help.  I am hopeful I can try back him again in the spring.  He will be 6 then
		
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What an upsetting journey you've both had, really wish you every success. Please keep us informed how backing goes as I love to hear of a happy ending.


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## ladyt25 (17 October 2014)

He started great as an almost 4 year old but after getting him his own (economy) adjustable saddle it all went wrong. He has a very wide spine and wide across the wither.  He 'told' me things weren't right by starting to be girthy and a little nappy but then it finally became too much resulting me in being ditched twice and him developing a fear of the saddle which caused more problems trying to overcome that. 
We did but obviously the work has highlighted the underlying issue. 
The vets said it's a very new thing they've started to diagnose but for me it explains his behaviour. He didn't buck,  it was more a rodeo type bronc and I can only explain it as as if he got an electric shock.  Makes sense as the pain would be like a spasm. 
Makes me wonder how many horses may have the same?
I think an older horse may put up with it to a degree as they have learned more manners and what not to do with a human on board, but a young one will just react to pain in the only way they know.


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## cptrayes (18 October 2014)

I'm afraid I agree with ladyt25 that is unlikely that this horse's problems are all in his head, and much more likely that a strong (mentally and/or physically) rider is convincing him that objecting is not an option. I hope I am wrong, and have my fingers crossed that he has many happy years of ridden work ahead of him.


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## ladyt25 (18 October 2014)

I am hopeful with mine as the damage should be fixable - vets say should be absolutely fine - and he's young I will have a nice, happy ridden horse eventually.  I have made the mistakes with mine and, going forwards we both have the mental aspects to get through but with time I am sure it will come.  OP I think you will have a good chance too of turning that corner but you need to try and find out the cause for the behaviour.


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## Turks (18 October 2014)

Illusion100 said:



			Well, the problem has been pin pointed down to anxiety over being mounted. Horse has recently been put into ridden work and with the right approach has not bucked once under saddle. There have been a few tantrums but no bucking. 

Horse is going to its first dressage competition on Sunday, so fingers crossed. 

Owner still wishes to sell though as he is not suitable for a 'Novice Novice'. Horse is more like a 4/5 yr old under saddle and needs reassurance and guidance. However things are looking positive! 

Turks, I just popped on thread to update and saw your comment, thank you! Bloods came back pretty normal which was a surprise but it seems I am definitely on the road to recovery. 

Click to expand...

Well that's very good news. Let's hope tomorrow brings some more


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## old hand (18 October 2014)

I too had a horse with a high wide wither and very wide spine, went off as if electrocuted and bucked like a rodeo bull.  did cure it to an extent with an Albion jump saddle witha high wide head and extra wide channel.  it was fear but always had to girth up slowly and reback him if he had any time off.  Was told by a showjumper that a certain german line are particularly bad for this, but having a senior moment and can't remember which one.  He did not have a kissing spine and did not react in his back or muscles at all, it was just deep seated fear of being girthed up, much better if you rode him daily or at least saddled him up.  Had several saddles for him til I bought the Albion at a car boot sale, previous ones were fitted by saddlers but even the wide ones just did not accommodate his wither width.  Also had to have a 16.5" saddle as the wither went so far back.  He was 16.3hh and a middle to heavyweight.


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## ladyt25 (19 October 2014)

old hand said:



			I too had a horse with a high wide wither and very wide spine, went off as if electrocuted and bucked like a rodeo bull.  did cure it to an extent with an Albion jump saddle witha high wide head and extra wide channel.  it was fear but always had to girth up slowly and reback him if he had any time off.  Was told by a showjumper that a certain german line are particularly bad for this, but having a senior moment and can't remember which one.  He did not have a kissing spine and did not react in his back or muscles at all, it was just deep seated fear of being girthed up, much better if you rode him daily or at least saddled him up.  Had several saddles for him til I bought the Albion at a car boot sale, previous ones were fitted by saddlers but even the wide ones just did not accommodate his wither width.  Also had to have a 16.5" saddle as the wither went so far back.  He was 16.3hh and a middle to heavyweight.
		
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That's interesting.  Mine doesn't have a high wither, his is pretty flat and the problem's been exasperated as saddles seem to slip forwards. I have had one specially made but it is not 100% yet and, when he is able to have a saddle on again I will have to get the saddler to adjust it further or take it back and start the saddle search again!


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## Illusion100 (20 October 2014)

Dressage yesterday. 5th/13 in Intro and 6th/20 in Prelim. Didn't put a hoof out of line and this was as far as I know horses first competition. Horse is for sale and has a potential lwvtb coming this week to try.


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## _Annie_ (20 October 2014)

Oh that's brilliant!  Just read this thread from the start, that's a fantastic outcome :-D


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## Illusion100 (20 October 2014)

Thanks Annie! 

Just again for others, I must stress this is not my horse and I cannot force Owners decisions in what they decide to peruse physically/psychologically with their horse. However the horse will now stand quietly at mounting block and be mounted/dismounted with varying amounts of rein contact from both sides, wait quietly until asked to move off, relaxed about girth tightened/loosened both sides and have rider balance with both legs either side. It working rounded and forward under saddle, mostly with ears pricked forward and is not displaying signs of pain. 

Personally, I think the horse has taken great leaps in the right direction and each time ridden is improving.


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## Turks (20 October 2014)

Lovely news


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