# New puppy... but no KC papers yet?



## Spyda (4 July 2010)

I bought a pedigree Whippet puppy last weekend but the breeder explained that there had been a delay in getting the papers sorted for the pups as the bitch had been registered in her son's name (he's 11) and she'd had to send off to have the ownership changed before getting the pups papers sorted. She showed me the letter from the KC confirming the change of ownership into her name, and said she'd sent the puppy's papers on to me once she'd got them. 

Both the breeder and I have signed a contract stating that I am aware that two endorsements had been placed on the puppy's registration with the KC, (i) Progeny not eligible for registration and, (ii) Not eligible for the issue of an Export Pedigree, but made the breeder add that the endorsements may be lifted providing the bitch is over 2 years old and the breeder agrees to the stud dog chosen. 

Should I be worried that I haven't left the breeder with the puppy's KC papers? What's the normal process for puppies registration with KC and how long does it normally take. I assume the Breeder won't be doing it online. 

I'm just worried incase the paper's dont come through and I do want to show the dog.


----------



## Miramis (4 July 2010)

Sometimes the paperwork does take a bit of time to come back. And yes the breeder can submit online.

As long as you are happy that the breeder is reputable then i wouldnt be too concearned and she should hopefully post them on to you.

Oh and congrat's on the new puppy )


----------



## Chestnuttymare (4 July 2010)

why the endorsements?


----------



## MurphysMinder (4 July 2010)

KC registration can be done online now and is pretty quick. However as long as the KC have accepted the change of ownership you should be okay as long as they don't query that the breeder didn't own the bitch at the time of mating.  I always sell my pups with endorsements, however I would only lift the not for breeding one if I was satisfied the dog was of good enough quality to breed from, and had good results on all necessary health tests, not just when it reached 2 years of age.


----------



## MurphysMinder (4 July 2010)

chestnuttymare said:



			why the endorsements?
		
Click to expand...

Many breeders apply the endorsements, it stops people breeding from dogs that are  not good examples of their breed and haven't had health tests.


----------



## CorvusCorax (4 July 2010)

Those endorsements are quite common now with responsible breeders and I totally agree with them and would do it myself if I bred.
Our last bitch had them, I had no issue with it.

Some kennels don't want their pups bred from willy nilly, imagine if you had spent years being a responsible, caring breeder, with a good name, sold a pup and then someone bred from it irresponsibly, not only would you be feeling quite angry, your kennel name would also be attached to something which was the polar opposite of what you had always tried to do.

OP, I do hear at as an excuse a lot, but these people sound reasonably competent.
If it's more than a couple of weeks then do start being persistent.


----------



## Spyda (4 July 2010)

Hopefully it'll be okay. I've just Googled the breeder and they appear a lot; Both listed for winning show classes and for judging, so I assume they're reputable enough. 

Having not bought a pedigree show dog before, I'm just not sure what papers you're supposed to walk away with on the day you collect your pup! I'd not be happy to leave with without a new horse's passport, so I supposed I feel a bit odd not having anything for the puppy except the signed contract thingy and a reciept. The contract doesn't have the puppy's pedigree on it, nor even her KC name entered onto it - it's been left blank. The breeder is selecting the name.

I paid cash and when the breeder was filling out the reciept she kept asking me, "Is that alright? Is that alright? You're happy with that?" At the time I thought it might be because I'd asked her to add the bit to the contract about lifting the endorsements, but now my mind is working over time incase she meant something else. Like there was something I was missing and should have asked for but didn't.


----------



## CorvusCorax (4 July 2010)

What age is she? Maybe her name is being applied for still.


----------



## soloabe (4 July 2010)

MurphysMinder said:



			KC registration can be done online now and is pretty quick. However as long as the KC have accepted the change of ownership you should be okay as long as they don't query that the breeder didn't own the bitch at the time of mating.  I always sell my pups with endorsements, however I would only lift the not for breeding one if I was satisfied the dog was of good enough quality to breed from, and had good results on all necessary health tests, not just when it reached 2 years of age.
		
Click to expand...

Agree with this. Why would they just be happy to lift them at 2 years old?


----------



## Spyda (4 July 2010)

CaveCanem said:



			What age is she? Maybe her name is being applied for still.
		
Click to expand...

13 weeks when I picked her up last week. The letter from the KC regarding the change of ownership was dated about 6th June. I know what the breeder intends to register her as name-wise, although I don't know whether she's done it already or not? Does the breeder register her name with the KC and the KC send the papers back to her, and then she sends them on to me? That's what the breeder implied to me. I don't understand why the KC dont just send the papers direct to me since I am the new owner? Or do I have to do that after the breeder sends the papers on to me?????  Seems long winded!!!


----------



## MurphysMinder (4 July 2010)

I would have thought you should have had a pedigree, unless they were waiting for a KC issued one.  Do you know the kc name of both parents, if so you could always contact the KC and check the registration has been applied for.

The KC will register her, probably with the breeders affix (kennel name).  The breeder will then complete the transfer section of the registration and send it on to you, for you to complete the transfer by sending back to the KC with the transfer fee.  The KC like to make plenty of money out of their registrations.


----------



## Spyda (4 July 2010)

katielou_houston said:



			Agree with this. Why would they just be happy to lift them at 2 years old?
		
Click to expand...

The breeder didn't just state the bitch had to be over two! She also insisted on having to agree to the chosen stud dog, as well. This is fine by me as she has far more experience and contacts that I, so will be in a good position to find me the best stud dog for my bitch (_should_ I decide to breed later down the line). I wouldn't intend breeding more than 1 litter in anycase.


----------



## Spyda (4 July 2010)

MurphysMinder said:



			I would have thought you should have had a pedigree, unless they were waiting for a KC issued one.  Do you know the kc name of both parents, if so you could always contact the KC and check the registration has been applied for.
		
Click to expand...

I know the bitch's name (can't remember the dog).



MurphysMinder said:



			The KC will register her, probably with the breeders affix (kennel name).  The breeder will then complete the transfer section of the registration and send it on to you, for you to complete the transfer by sending back to the KC with the transfer fee.  The KC like to make plenty of money out of their registrations. 

Click to expand...

Yes, I am gathering that's the case. Deep sigh. 

Another thing, the pup was supposed to come with 6 week free insurance. Does the KC provide that, as the breeder didn't give me any info on that?


----------



## soloabe (4 July 2010)

Spyda said:



			The breeder didn't just state the bitch had to be over two! She also insisted on having to agree to the chosen stud dog, as well. This is fine by me as she has far more experience and contacts that I, so will be in a good position to find me the best stud dog for my bitch (_should_ I decide to breed later down the line). I wouldn't intend breeding more than 1 litter in anycase.
		
Click to expand...

Oh


----------



## Spyda (4 July 2010)

katielou_houston said:



			Oh  

Click to expand...

Why the sad face? The dog is superbly bred and will be shown. If she's successful I would like to breed a litter from her. I'm not puppy farming. LOL.


----------



## MurphysMinder (4 July 2010)

It is probably the 6 weeks free insurance that comes with the KC reg, yes.  Not sure how the cover works if the pup isn't registered yet though?  When the insurance does come through I would suggest you look at other companies for insurance rather than just sign up with the KC one, it used to be rather pricey.


----------



## MurphysMinder (4 July 2010)

I think katie's sad face is because the breeder doesn't seem to have put any restrictions re the bitches quality etc before approving breeding.  She may well intend to only remove the endorsements if your bitch is good enough, so cannot judge at this stage.  Sadly the best lines don't necessarily guarantee the bitch will be suitable for breeding. I am typing this with my beautifully bred bitch, from low hip scoring lines, lying on my feet.  Sadly her hip score was above the breed average so I was not able to breed from her, or should I say I chose not to, no endorsements as I bred her myself.


----------



## Spyda (4 July 2010)

MurphysMinder said:



			It is probably the 6 weeks free insurance that comes with the KC reg, yes.  Not sure how the cover works if the pup isn't registered yet though?  When the insurance does come through I would suggest you look at other companies for insurance rather than just sign up with the KC one, it used to be rather pricey.
		
Click to expand...

Ah, thought so. I've assumed she's not covered since I hadn't received anything. She's now vaccinated and microchipped. Which insurance companies would you recommend? There are so many. It's hard to decide which to choose. I love NFU for the horses.


----------



## MurphysMinder (4 July 2010)

I have a very basic £5 a month add on to my household insurance with the NFU. Just covers vets fees but that is enough for me.  A friend had the full NFU dog insurance and they were excellent when she sadly had a lot of claims when her bitch had cancer, which she eventually lost her to.


----------



## Spyda (4 July 2010)

MurphysMinder said:



			I think katie's sad face is because the breeder doesn't seem to have put any restrictions re the bitches quality etc before approving breeding.  She may well intend to only remove the endorsements if your bitch is good enough, so cannot judge at this stage.  Sadly the best lines don't necessarily guarantee the bitch will be suitable for breeding. I am typing this with my beautifully bred bitch, from low hip scoring lines, lying on my feet.  Sadly her hip score was above the breed average so I was not able to breed from her, or should I say I chose not to, no endorsements as I bred her myself.

Click to expand...

Aaah I see. I'm sorry. I should have explained. I spent a long time at the breeders and discussed already that I'd only breed a litter down the line should the pup be good enough to consider breeding from and if she was proving a useful show dog. Since the breeder knows I don't intend breeding willy-nilly she felt the comments concerning a lifting of the breeding endorsement adequate. And let's face it, she's only agreed to 'consider' lifting them - not stated that she _will_ lift them, regardless. 

I felt she was responsible enough. At least she adds the exclusions automatically and DOESN'T normally add any criteria about having the endorsements lifted. It was only that I _insisted_ she agree to consider removing the endorsements for me beause I do wish to show the dog and would like to keep the option open to breed a litter.


----------



## Spyda (4 July 2010)

MurphysMinder said:



			I have a very basic £5 a month add on to my household insurance with the NFU. Just covers vets fees but that is enough for me.  A friend had the full NFU dog insurance and they were excellent when she sadly had a lot of claims when her bitch had cancer, which she eventually lost her to.
		
Click to expand...

I didn't know if NFU did dog insurance. Good to know that they do. I'll give my branch a call in the morning.


----------



## MurphysMinder (4 July 2010)

Just to save Gazey asking, we do of course need pics of your pup,sooner rather than later.


----------



## harkback (4 July 2010)

Gernerally the ownership of the bitch at time of whelping is the name that MUST appear as bitch owner for registration, therefore the change for registration purposes cannot be made after the whelping date.


----------



## Spyda (4 July 2010)

harkback said:



			Gernerally the ownership of the bitch at time of whelping is the name that MUST appear as bitch owner for registration, therefore the change for registration purposes cannot be made after the whelping date.
		
Click to expand...

Hmmm... so what does that mean for the puppies in this litter? The change of name letter was definitely dated 6th June and the puppies were born in April. I've been onto the KC website and entered the propsed name for my puppy and it's appearing as still available.

The breeder did say she'd had to get in touch with the bitches breeder to get the paperwork changed, and this is what had caused the delay. Apparently the breeder had bought the bitch as a puppy for her son to show in young handler classes and that she was still registered in his name at the time the puppies were born. The son would have been 10 years old at the time. The breeder said she'd contacted the bitches breeder to have her son removed as the owner and it transfered into her name for the sake of registering the puppies. Does that sound right?


----------



## MurphysMinder (5 July 2010)

Hmm, doesn't sound quite right, but we're probably all just suspicious souls.  The bitches original breeder should have had nothing to do with the current owner, as I said above, when a pup is sold the breeder gives the paper work to the new owner, so it should have been your pups breeder who did the changeover to her sons name.  Also a dog does not have to be in the childs name to go in junior handling, or certainly didn't.  A lot of junior handlers  show dogs owned by other people.  As you have the dams name and the breeders name I would just phone the KC and ask if they have a litter for registration out of this bitch.
Harkback has confirmed what certainly used to be the case in that the owner at the time of mating has to register the pups, I wasn't sure if still the case.


----------



## harkback (5 July 2010)

It is still the case MM - Quote from the KC registration: - " Both mother and father of the litter must be registered with the Kennel Club. Ownership details of both parents must be correct at time of mating for the stud dog and date of birth for the dam."  So if the bitch was in the son's name regardless of his age he is the "dam owner" for the puppies.

Am I correct in understanding the breeder (B) who bred the puppy you have bought the bitch for HER son to show and it is in HIS name?  Therefore at the time of mating it is his name that should be on the registration as bitch owner, it cannot be changed later.  If the bitch is still in the name of the breeder (A) of that bitch then that breeder (A) would have been required to be named as owner for the other breeder (B) son's handling classes and signed the entry forms.  Goodness confusing or what -  breeder A & breeder B!

The KC registration normally is quick, 14 days max for postal registry, and online I got my litter registration back in a week.


----------



## harkback (5 July 2010)

Forgot to add if the bitch is in the son's name as owner, there is no reason for the breeder of that bitch to sign anything to change bitch ownership to the breeder of your puppy.  It would be the son who is the owner who would sign the form regardless of his age.


----------



## galaxy (5 July 2010)

I didnt get Harley's KC paperwork when I collected him due to a delay at the KC.  I did get a long number though which I could take online and change the ownership.  When the papaerwork did come back to the breeder they forwarded it onto me.

The 6 weeks insurance is SUCH a con!  You have to sign up to the entire year and they just give you the 1st 6 weeks of it free!!!  It's horrifically expensive and uncompetetive!!  I'd be amazed if anyone actually did it.


----------



## CorvusCorax (5 July 2010)

Just to add, I did a bit of junior handling as a nipper and it doesn't matter who owns the dog - our own bitch was in my mother's name and obviously other people's dogs were in theirs.

It is starting to sound a bit over-complicated I'm afraid!


----------



## dozzie (5 July 2010)

If the son didnt have a registered prefix would it make a difference? 

RE Kennel club insurance. It runs for 6 weeks after the date of purchase.


----------



## harkback (6 July 2010)

dozzie said:



			If the son didnt have a registered prefix would it make a difference? .
		
Click to expand...

Not at all, it is not compulsory to have an affix to register a litter.


----------

