# Hoof X-rays: continue barefoot or put shoes back on?



## ponyparty (8 June 2018)

A brief history:

Had Bs shoes pulled in January. 
After a couple of trims by an EP, which in my opinion took too much off and left him footy, I switched to a different trimmer. Very happy with this trimmer  theyre due out tomorrow. He is fine (to my eye) on soft surfaces and smooth tarmac, but footy on stony tracks/gravel still. I was expecting better than this, 5 months in, and always said from the start that if his transition is taking too long and he's uncomfortable, then I am not averse to putting shoes back on. His comfort is most important to me.

This week I had Bs back X-rayed  spinous processes close together (see other thread http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...roiliac-pain-(-trying-not-to-assume-the-worst! )
Had a laminitis scare last week too so got them to X-ray his front feet whilst he was there, and also to see what's going on with the barefoot transition. 

I haven't had the written report from the vet yet - I have spoken to him, but I was in the car and my mobile reception kept breaking up, plus he has a strong Italian accent so I struggled to understand him a bit too! The general gist is, he thinks B needs shoes back on because his feet are so flat that he is always going to struggle with stony surfaces. He said he has slight navicular in the off fore, which he recommended remedial shoeing for, and I'm sure he said something else too but I'm struggling to remember now. The report should be winging its way over to me soon, so I'll have a full update then. 

I'm going to ask my trimmer tomorrow (he's a fully qualified farrier too and will be honest if he thinks a horse needs shoes back on). 

So - any hoof experts out there want to have a look at the X-rays?
What would you do in my situation? 

I'm leaning towards having shoes put back on, I can't stand seeing my horse uncomfortable - I do have boots, but they're not always practical, e.g. the slightest bit of rain and the clay mud goes so sticky it pulls boots off. I really need his way of going to be correct, for the rehab of his back - if he's stepping short, trying to protect his feet, his back muscles are not going to be used correctly.

His hooves have come a long way from where they were in January but the fact he's still footy now - and bearing in mind there are no livery yards geared up to barefoot round by me - I feel like I'm fighting a losing battle and that shoeing is the most ethical thing I can do for my horse, to make sure he's not in discomfort.


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## Alibear (8 June 2018)

Hi, as you know I tried too but I've put the shoes back on. In your situation I'd be doing the same, perhaps in future years once you and your horse are up and running and fine in all respects it could be worth revisiting, but currently you seem to have too many variables for it to work out.


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## Fiona (8 June 2018)

You've given it a very good try, but in your position I'd put the shoes back on...

Fiona


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## Pearlsasinger (8 June 2018)

I would go with your farrier/trimmer's advice.  But I must say, I wouldn't want to risk masking the early stages of laminitis.


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## ester (8 June 2018)

The way of going of a footy horse does effect everything else, that's not debatable so although I think it is early days to resolve the flatness I think shoes are worthy of consideration. 

How is he on a hard ground field, because I would say at the moment that is probably what matters as where he is spending the majority of his time? If he is ok there and is ok on flat tarmac I'd be less keen to shoe, but only you know how he is (it did take F a long time to be anywhere near ok on stones, but we didn't need to do them so they could either be avoided or booted for, not everyone can do that).

Now I do think it is important to say that not all shoes are equal, I'm always forgetting the name but there is a nice half shoe half pad combination that I know Ihatework used with success- so it still allows the back of the hoof to work properly and become more optimal but provides protection for the rest.


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## ester (8 June 2018)

Pearlsasinger said:



			I would go with your farrier/trimmer's advice.  But I must say, I wouldn't want to risk masking the early stages of laminitis.
		
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see when they are sore anyway I'm not sure how helpful it is for this anyway TBH.


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## ester (8 June 2018)

remembered! 

http://www.equinefootclinic.co.uk/EFC_Pad.html

maybe worth speaking to farrier about hoof armor too, then you know you have discussed all the options (that I can think of anyway   )


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## Kat (8 June 2018)

If there is navicular I would be cautious about shoes as they could make things worse. 

It takes more than five months to grow a whole hoof and plenty of shod horses are a bit gimpy on stones so don't panic too much. If he is comfy in the field and the school as well as on smooth tarmac I think I would press on (providing your trimmer agrees). 

What boots do you have? Would it be worth investing in some different ones and using them more often? I have ridden in some pretty muddy conditions in boots without losing them so you might be able to get a better more secure fit. 

I spent months with my horse never leaving the stable without boots and pads while we were transitioning her. She also had flat feet (as well as thin soles and negative rotation of the pedal bone). After a while she was sound enough to hunt barefoot. Getting the diet right and getting comfortable movement into them can help flat feet (pads in boots can help more than just boots so if you have boots that will take a pad try some EPS pads in them)

Also consider things like glue on glove shells and hoof armour. Not something I have experience of but worth talking to your farrier about. The weather conditions recently have been really tough for barefoot so you have my sympathy.


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## ponyparty (8 June 2018)

Thanks for all your replies! I'm so torn. On one hand - need to get his back right - just got the vet report through, Grade 1 Kissing Spines between T17-T18. Should I just bang shoes on in the short term so he's moving correctly? It's not the barefoot that's caused this however, as in hindsight he was already displaying signs of it before I took his shoes off in January. But I would imagine it hasn't helped... On the other hand, navicular + shoes might not be such a great idea either.

Here is what the vet report says about his feet: 

"Findings: mild bilateral distal interphalangeal (coffin) joint osteoarthritis, mild bilateral navicular bone disease,
decreased right front pedal bone palmar angle ( 1-2 °), decreased depth of the sole bilaterally"

Deffo going to see what farrier says tomorrow - I hadn't heard of those boots ester, or glue on glove shells and hoof armour?! Kat - I'll have to investigate. My trimmer should know more. The first time he came out to me, he mentioned a new spray-on foam pad which can help protect the soles - he was so incredibly sore back then though, he didn't want to try something new and unproven on B (as he hadn't used the stuff yet) in case it exacerbated the situation. I'll ask him about it tomorrow, and potentially boots with pads etc.


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## Kat (8 June 2018)

The spray on pad might be hoof armour that sounds like a way of describing it!

The glue on gloves are the easy boot glove boots but they can I believe be glued on in certain cases. I think there might be other glue on boots now but I haven't looked into that kind of thing. I am just looking to replace my ancient worn out cavallos! 

I would really really recommend the 4lb eps pads inside a suitable boot they made my mare comfortable when shoes couldn't. The vet was gob smacked!


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## ponyparty (8 June 2018)

Very useful advice, thank you. Will be sure to let you know what the farrier says tomorrow!
There's got to be another solution for him other than shoes...


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## ponyparty (8 June 2018)

ester said:



			remembered! 

http://www.equinefootclinic.co.uk/EFC_Pad.html

maybe worth speaking to farrier about hoof armor too, then you know you have discussed all the options (that I can think of anyway   )
		
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Ahhh ester I've seen these before! I'm sure someone on the yard I used to work at had her horse in these, on one foot at least... Deffo something to consider!


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## ponyparty (8 June 2018)

Oh and Kat - I have Cavallo Entry Level boots. They pull off ever so easily in the field, or in the thick clay mud we have around here. I was booting for turnout as we kept gettinf frost and our fields were so poached, it was really uncomfortable for him.
 I'm not actually riding him at the moment (haven't done since January) so he'd be booted only for either walking out or turnout if the ground gets really hard. 
He is comfortable in the field as far as I can tell, he is happy to have a canter and hoon around when turned out anyway.
Diet-wise he's on Thunderbrooks Healthy Herbal Muesli and Daily Essentials balancer. He was on haylage but since lami scare is on soaked hay. 
Will deffo update you with what farrier says tomorrow, thank you all for your replies! 
I guess it's good timing being pregnant - plenty of time to get him right, and then hopefully it won't be too long post-baby before I can hop back on..! Fingers crossed, anyway. Trying so hard to stay positive.


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## ester (8 June 2018)

I'm not sure I'd be keen to glue on gloves, as a gloves fan, afaik they are most usually glued on for endurance rides (as are the flip flops and the love child (not sure if that one came out officially!). I've not seen them used with any sort of antibac compression material to prevent frog mankiness as you wouldn't be able to get to it. 

Personally I would like to think that there is a better happy medium than just sticking bar shoes and wedges on . (FWIW I did tell someone else with KS to just shoe the other week, but that horse had been operated on and the post op rehab was IMO far more important then).

hoof armour isn't foam, its more of an epoxy resin/glue type thing- quite a few trimmers are using it over here now though and people seem to find it useful for helping the sole thicken and increasing comfort.


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## ester (8 June 2018)

It is worth pointing out that some do not find the daily essentials great, I'm trying to remember but I think it doesn't have as much copper and zinc as some of the other options. 

how well do the cavallos fit, do they twist if you try? Ive had both simples and sports on while poulticing in silly deep sticky mud mid winter and never had one come off but there would also be other options. 

Fwiw Frank seems to have reverted to type with his flat soles with lack of work, bloomin horses!


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## Fiona (8 June 2018)

You didn't say in the OP that you weren't riding....

That changes my answer,  if he is comfy in the field then leave his shoes off so his feet get a break.. 

Fiona


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## Kat (8 June 2018)

I don't know the ELB I have simples and will buy another pair (they seem cheapest and the last pair lasted well) but they never came off even in deep mud. I wonder if you could get away with a smaller size, or pad them a bit to make them a bit more snug (try the EPS pads). 

I wouldn't shoe if you are pregnant and not riding.


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## PoppyAnderson (8 June 2018)

ponyparty said:



			Very useful advice, thank you. Will be sure to let you know what the farrier says tomorrow!
There's got to be another solution for him other than shoes...
		
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There is. Stop having him trimmed. Leave him to grow the foot he needs. Recalibrate your view of how a hoof should look. It's not about it looking symmetrical and conventionally pleasing to the eye - it's about it being functional. If he were mine, I'd get the best hoof supplement into him, get the sugar content in his diet as low as possible, invest in new (better) hoof boots, exercise him as much as possible and go at least 3 months, if not longer, without trimming. I bet you find he's not as footy on this regime. If you put shoes on him, all the problems you have now will still be there - you will just be masking them, at best. Have you heard of Rockley Farm btw?


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## PoppyAnderson (8 June 2018)

Duplicate deleted.


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## ycbm (9 June 2018)

Are you feeding a no iron, no manganese, high copper supplement?.  And have you removed all added sugars from his diet?

This transition is taking far too long. If you have his feed right I would suggest testing for Cushings.


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## tda (9 June 2018)

PoppyAnderson said:



			There is. Stop having him trimmed. Leave him to grow the foot he needs. Recalibrate your view of how a hoof should look. It's not about it looking symmetrical and conventionally pleasing to the eye - it's about it being functional. If he were mine, I'd get the best hoof supplement into him, get the sugar content in his diet as low as possible, invest in new (better) hoof boots, exercise him as much as possible and go at least 3 months, if not longer, without trimming. I bet you find he's not as footy on this regime. If you put shoes on him, all the problems you have now will still be there - you will just be masking them, at best. Have you heard of Rockley Farm btw?
		
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This //


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## ester (9 June 2018)

ycbm said:



			Are you feeding a no iron, no manganese, high copper supplement?.  And have you removed all added sugars from his diet?

This transition is taking far too long. If you have his feed right I would suggest testing for Cushings.
		
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Why do you say that? Frank was still very flat soled and not 100% on flat tarmac up to the 6 month point, he needed to be booted for all roadwork. OP says hers is ok on flat tarmac and it's just stones that are an issue and when people say that I do think it is very hard to judge comfort without seeing them. 

(btw that is a question not a challenge as I know you have transitioned many more than I have!)

OP iirc you were working him, when did that stop? I am wondering if that isn't helping.


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## ycbm (9 June 2018)

Some horses take longer than others, for sure. But any horse these days still uncomfortable at five months and on a good diet, I would recommend a Cushings test, because so many of them are being found at much younger ages than we used to expect it.


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## DabDab (9 June 2018)

ycbm said:



			Are you feeding a no iron, no manganese, high copper supplement?.  And have you removed all added sugars from his diet?

This transition is taking far too long. If you have his feed right I would suggest testing for Cushings.
		
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I would expect a transition to take this long if there are issues in other parts of the body - that's why I'm really not keen on putting shoes on for rehab because you lose the most (for me) indicative sign of how the body is developing, and you restrict the ability of the hoof to change shape and angles to adapt to a different posture and way of going. I'd much rather use a removable type of protection if the horse is a bit tender on its feet. 
Reading massively between the lines so I may be way off the mark, this horse doesn't sound like to hoof quality is poor, just that the angles/shape are a bit out of whack...?


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## ester (9 June 2018)

I cant remember if Ive seen any hoof pics for this one, I usually remember if I have.

I do think it can be very chicken and egg, I persisted as he was hoof lame but frank certainly got quite posturally sore while we were getting the hooves sorted and needed quite a bit of regular body work to keep him comfy.
Interestingly now several years later we are in a potentially similar position.


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## ycbm (9 June 2018)

DabDab said:



			I would expect a transition to take this long if there are issues in other parts of the body - that's why I'm really not keen on putting shoes on for rehab because you lose the most (for me) indicative sign of how the body is developing, and you restrict the ability of the hoof to change shape and angles to adapt to a different posture and way of going. I'd much rather use a removable type of protection if the horse is a bit tender on its feet. 
Reading massively between the lines so I may be way off the mark, this horse doesn't sound like to hoof quality is poor, just that the angles/shape are a bit out of whack...?
		
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Perhaps I should clarify. I would not expect a horse with a decent diet still to be sore on minor stones at five months. Other issues with its body may mean it's not sound, but should not mean that it still has thin soles.  And while some might well take that long or longer, I would always test for Cushings if that happens because it's proving to be so incredibly common.


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## ponyparty (10 June 2018)

Thanks for all of your replies. I'm going to try and answer all the questions, apologies if I miss any - do ask again. It's so hard to get everything into an initial post without making it into (even more of) an essay, and more questions always come up anyway.

He has been tested for Cushings and EMS last week - both came back negative. 

He is on a small amount of Thunderbrook Healthy Herbal Muesli and Daily Essentials balancer. I did have him on Forageplus, but he stopped eating it very quickly and wouldn't touch his feed if it had even a tiny sprinkle in it. Fussy beggar. I'd rather him be eating the correct amount of a decent (if not THE best) balancer, than none at all because he refuses to eat it. 
He was on haylage until recent lami scare, and now is on soaked hay. 
He was out overnight without a muzzle, now he's on restricted turnout muzzled, until I'm confident he won't get his muzzle off. Then he'll go out overnight, but from quite late - 8.30-9pm. 

I have heard of Rockley Farm and have been in contact with Nic, and am considering asking my vet for a referral as I'm concerned about his feet taking so long to recover. Whether they would refer me is another question...

I am aware that trimming is not essential, the main reason I have been having trimmers out is to get a qualified professional to look at his feet and give me their advice and opinion. My current trimmer does not take any off unless he sees a need; he has not made Bruce sore with trimming. I'm new to barefoot and being on a livery yard where most people have shod horses, I find it helpful to have a professional's opinion to reassure me and back me up.

Unfortunately my farrier/trimmer was taken ill this weekend and is in hospital, so hasn't seen Bruce. Will just have to wait for him to get better - his feet are by no means in a bad state, they don't really need trimming - some walking out on the road will sort them out. I mainly wanted to see him to discuss treatment options for the issues revealed by the X rays. 

I have indeed been working Bruce - walking out on the lanes in hand, groundwork and some lunging. I stopped this last week due to the laminitis scare, as the vet said not to do anything that may cause concussion. I have the all clear now to go ahead but as he's currently on restricted turnout until we get to grips with the grazing muzzle (he is adept at removing them!!) he's erm a bit "bright" shall we say...! So not ideal for walking the lanes as he's sharp and spooky at the best of times!

I have noticed since he's been in/on restricted turnout that his hoof wall has grown down, he was self trimming nicely before. I'm sure this will chip off after a few walks out in hand though. 

I am waiting on two bits to try from the Bit Bank and his Equi-Ami to be delivered, and am also getting him booked in for steroid injections for this week for his back. So exercise will be resumed very soon. Walking out in hand can resume whenever really, it's just he's being a bit of a **** to lead out because he's so fresh from being cooped up.

I will take some pics of his feet later when I go to bring him in - fingers crossed the grazing muzzle is still in place! I have photos of his feet from way back when I first took the shoes off, up until a few months ago. I was blogging about our journey together but as we keep hitting brick wall after brick wall, and I've been so busy, and pregnant (!) I've let that slip. Plus I don't want to blog about it, until I have some good news  it was just getting too depressing!


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## SusieT (10 June 2018)

If your horse is lame on surfaces that you want to work him on you need to protect his feet with boots, shoes, or other - or avoid working the horse on said surfaces- you wouldn't walk yourself down stoney surfaces to harden your own feet.


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## ester (10 June 2018)

the horse isn't working?

and TBF human barefooters do just that...


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## ycbm (10 June 2018)

SusieT said:



			you wouldn't walk yourself down stoney surfaces to harden your own feet.
		
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How else do you think barefoot runners and people all around the world who don't wear shoes do it?  How do you think bricklayers get the callouses they need  on their hands unless they handle bricks?  I heard a country singer on Vintage earlier this evening that she works to rebuild the callouses she needs on her fingers to play the guitar before a tour starts. 

The key is only to do as much as the horse can cope with.


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## ponyparty (11 June 2018)

I'm only working him on flat tarmac, and the arena surface. He seems fine on both. 
He does have to go over stony surfaces to get to the arena or turnout, I've been just letting him pick his own way over it. Maybe I should boot for this... But last time he saw him, my trimmer advised me to just let him get on with it, pick his way and eventually he'll be ok. Also, if I always boot, how will I know if there's any improvement or deterioration? But obviously want him to be comfortable so might boot him for it, for now, whilst we get him back right. I'm also going to boot him next time I lunge him and see if there's any difference in his way of going. 

I didn't take photos last night because when I got to the yard, the muzzle was still in place! He was happily grazing so I have left him out overnight, just hope to god he kept it on. Nervously awaiting a text from the yard phone! I will get the pics tonight and post a comparison of week 1 and now.


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## Pearlsasinger (11 June 2018)

I would ask the vet for a TRH test.  We had a mare tested for Cushings 3 times (ACTH test), each time came back negative, although slightly higher level each time.  Then, because we were concerned about her symptoms (no laminitis) we had the TRH Stim test done.  That reading was *8 times* normal upper limit.  She was immediately put onto Prascend.


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## ponyparty (11 June 2018)

Interesting Pearl - I didn't realise there were different tests that could be done. I'll give the vets a buzz later on today and discuss with the one who took his bloods. 
Also want to discuss Rockley with the vet who has advised he has shoes back on. The more I've discussed it over the weekend, the less inclined I am to want to put shoes back on. Really need my trimmer to get well so I can get his opinion on this! (Well, I want him to get well either way, horse's feet or not!)


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## OldNag (11 June 2018)

Pearlsasinger said:



			I would ask the vet for a TRH test.  We had a mare tested for Cushings 3 times (ACTH test), each time came back negative, although slightly higher level each time.  Then, because we were concerned about her symptoms (no laminitis) we had the TRH Stim test done.  That reading was *8 times* normal upper limit.  She was immediately put onto Prascend.
		
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We had a very similar story. Definitely worth getting the extra test. It is more pricey but you will be much more certain.


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## paddy555 (11 June 2018)

Pearlsasinger said:



			I would ask the vet for a TRH test.  We had a mare tested for Cushings 3 times (ACTH test), each time came back negative, although slightly higher level each time.  Then, because we were concerned about her symptoms (no laminitis) we had the TRH Stim test done.  That reading was *8 times* normal upper limit.  She was immediately put onto Prascend.
		
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negative doesn't always mean negative. Mine was tested at 17 (<29) I was sure he had cushings. He was tested a couple of weeks later at 11 (<29). He went onto prascend as a trial. This was 2 false negatives in a fortnight. He was 12. He had had cushings (by symptoms of which footy on stones was one) since he was 5.


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## Leo Walker (11 June 2018)

And equally its not always cushings. Mine didnt have it. My vet at the time was a specialist and hes the vet other vets go to with questions about cushings etc. He doesnt think its as common as people believe especially in young horses.


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## paddy555 (11 June 2018)

Leo Walker said:



			And equally its not always cushings. Mine didnt have it. My vet at the time was a specialist and hes the vet other vets go to with questions about cushings etc. He doesnt think its as common as people believe especially in young horses.
		
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no it's not always cushings but it is important to rule it out hence the TRH test. If you have cushings then you never make any progress with this sore feet problem. It never occurred to my vet because he was only 12. It certainly never occurred to me why my 5yo was behaving like a cushings horse.


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## SusieT (11 June 2018)

If he is comfortable in the field what's the need to do anything different? Or is it because you want to ride?


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## ponyparty (12 June 2018)

Well I don't want him to have anything wrong with him, for starters! 
Clearly he is in pain - when exhibiting footiness over stony ground, and when asked to work (in hand only at the moment) e.g. on the lunge, going hollow. I couldn't just turn him away, knowing there are unresolved issues which are unlikely to sort themselves out. For his feet to come right, he needs work - movement is key for barefoot horses.
And eventually I do want to ride him - not right now as I'm pregnant, but baby is due in early November so hopefully by early 2019. Surely this gives me the perfect opportunity to get him well again? I can work him in hand, I can rest him if required, I can send him away to rehab if required (which I will be discussing with my vet tomorrow). 

Forgot all about taking foot photos last night, was in a massive rush after pregnancy Pilates class and then there was a road closure en route to the yard so what should have been 10-15 mins at that time of night took nearly 40! Will try and do them tonight.


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## ponyparty (13 June 2018)

Well last night when I got there, brought him out to give him a butt wash and apply Camrosa ointment - he has rubbed the top of his tail raw, will come back to that issue in a minute - he looked uncomfortable on his feet, checked and could feel pulses. Pulled his bed all the way forward, he's on soaked hay anyway so put a net in for the night for him and another in to soak for him for this morning. Heading up there shortly. 
Yes he has been out overnight, but in a Greenguard muzzle (think they're meant to be amongst the most restrictive?) - and there isn't THAT much grass in his field. I'm shocked to be honest; i've never had to deal with a laminitic horse before though. Good job the vet is out at 9am today. 

Can itchiness be a sign of Cushings? 

I ask because, although he does scratch his tail, it doesn't look like sweet itch that I've seen before. It's also not pinworm. He did it in the autumn/winter last year, after the midges were about really. I thought it was pinworm and he was treated for it, but there weren't actually any signs of them e.g. yellowy crust. He was just itchy. He continued to rub for a while afterwards, I'm forever giving him butt washes and applying various creams to the area. The only thing that works is Camrosa and that's super expensive so I tried other stuff - and he's rubbed it raw again. ARGH. 

Definitely asking for the TRH test this morning. He does not look like a metabolic horse and tested negative for EMS, he isn't overweight, I just cannot believe he is this susceptible to lami without an underlying issue. Suppose we shall see.


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## ester (13 June 2018)

greeguards tend to be the least restrictive, which is why so many take to them so well. 

The itchiness, I've only seen it when they are hot from coat problems, we have one who does it in the stable a lot probably a bite  reaction but no sweet itch and a bit of killitch/benzyl benzoate stops her.

See what the vet thinks in a bit


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## ponyparty (13 June 2018)

I didnt realise that about the greenguard ester! The fellow livery I bought it from had to stop using it because her horse dropped so much weight being out overnight in it, she reckoned he was only getting 20% of the grass intake. Bruce was really struggling with the Shires bucket one so I thought Id give the greenguard a try! Wish I hadnt now! Just waiting on vet, update in a bit.


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## Leo Walker (13 June 2018)

Yes itching can be a sign of cushings. He does sound like a candidate for the TRH test with that list of symptoms.


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## ponyparty (13 June 2018)

So vet thinks TRH test unnecessary - his ACTH reading was so low that it would be extremely unlikely to have a positive TRH test. 
Vet thinks butt scratching is recurrence of pinworm - going to treat this again with wash/paint and also an injection (the name of it escapes me now - same injection they use for feather mites I think?). I've got the Camrosa ointment now so the raw bits should heal up quickly now that I'm using this. 
Vet is advising shoeing, ASAP. Bruce's feet are sore, but not just where they would be from laminitis. He needs to be comfortable in his feet to get to work on his back. I've got a farrier in mind who I am going to contact ASAP, who is highly rated both by the vet and several friends. 
Vet also says he needs to be exercised much more than he is currently - think 30-40 mins lunging per day. I have to say this isn't something  I would normally do, but will do it on vet advice. I don't have to do it on a tight circle, I can use the whole school. I'm also going to boot him up as much as possible.
Vet didn't do steroid injections, as didn't want to exacerbate any laminitis risk, but will do them in 2-3 weeks when hopefully he's a bit better in himself. 

I'm going to just do what the vet says, follow all his advice to the letter, and see where we are in a few weeks' time. If it works - great. If it doesn't - we change the plan and try some of the alternatives. 

Just need to get cracking now!


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## Alibear (13 June 2018)

ponyparty said:



			I'm going to just do what the vet says, follow all his advice to the letter, and see where we are in a few weeks' time. If it works - great. If it doesn't - we change the plan and try some of the alternatives. 

Just need to get cracking now!
		
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Thanks for the update and I agree 100% with your decision for next steps. Good luck.


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## DabDab (13 June 2018)

Good luck, hope he gets sorted out and good to go by the time you're post pregnancy - like you say, ideal time to get stuff sorted. I don't envy you having to do 40mins lunging a day though, I think I'd die of boredom!


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## ponyparty (13 June 2018)

Thanks all for your input. This is a great place to vent worries and get some great ideas for where to go next if what my vet has prescribed doesn't work out. I don't want to abandon barefoot altogether but I really need my horse to be comfortable right now. 

Ha, yes I think I may die of boredom - or dizziness/nausea! Having said that, the last 5 months of walking him out on the lanes hasn't exactly been stimulating either. Oh well, the things we do for our horses


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## supsup (14 June 2018)

In case your pinworm treatment doesn't pan out - my vet recommended double Pyrantel, followed by 5 day Panacur a week later, and smearing ivermectin-based wormer around the anus until the Panacur is finished. It resolved the problems my boy had with bum rubbing upon his return from 6 months on the common. Never saw any direct evidence of pinworm, but he kept backing into stuff to rub, and when given a chance would target the area under the tail, rather than the dock itself. Had the vet out to do his teeth and mentioned it, and got the above advice. The vet said they have yet to find a case where this protocol doesn't work, and I have to say, it did for me. I also washed the tail with Dermoline insecticidal shampoo at the end of it (get rid of remaining scabs and ivermectin paste), which I think also helped with any remaining itchiness due to caked up skin/cream etc. Not sure the external ivermectin did very much though, but I followed the advice to the letter.
I think it also helped that he lives out 24/7 will electric fencing all around, so no particular place where he could rub and shed eggs to re-infect himself. His field mate didn't pick it up, thankfully.


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## Pinkvboots (14 June 2018)

I think if his comfortable in the school and on the road leave his shoes off and try to avoid very stony paths, I have a horse that has a very low grade navicular and I pulled his shoes straight away didn't want remedial shoes and he was sound 3 months later and has remained sound, he is a bit sensitive on stony areas but I just avoid them as much as I can and he actually moves better in the school without shoes.

I think in many cases most vets will recommend you go down the remedial shoe route for navicular as that's what they have been taught, I did read up a lot about it and came on here for advice and I am glad I did because his foot shape has changed quite dramatically.


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## Reacher (14 June 2018)

Best of luck, Ive not followed the whole story but I remember how excited you were when you bought him and am sorry youve had a rough time.

Ps supsup im going to bookmark your pinworm protocol - I have a horse with itchy tail / mane, think its sweet itch but your advice is worth remembering just in case!


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## ponyparty (14 June 2018)

Pinkvboots, I really want to leave shoes off but I need him to be comfortable on his feet to resolve the back issue. Even if I just shoe him until we've got that under control, I am just going to do it. I'm contacting a farrier who does those shoes that ester mentioned - half shoe, half plastic pad so the frog and heel is still stimulated. The navicular is mild right now, so hopefully putting shoes back on for a few months won't be the end of the world. He is incredibly flat footed, so the slightest stony ground and he's sore. He was sore all over when the vet used hoof testers the other day.

Reacher - thanks, it hasn't been quite the dream I expected but that's horses! I still love him to bits and am glad I bought him, and I'm sure that there'll be happier times ahead. But yeah it's pretty stressful right now! 

supsup - I'm going to speak to a different vet about pinworm treatment and will mention this approach. I've heard the 5 day Panacur is the only one that works really; but agree tackling from all angles is probably best. It's just odd because he had this itchy tail head last summer, and forelock, and that cleared up and healed just with me washing it weekly and applying Camrosa ointment. So perhaps he's got a bit of both, pinworm AND sweet itch. That would be just my luck!


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## Reacher (14 June 2018)

Just out of curiosity what was the point of the lunging? To keep weight off or to strengthen core to support kissing spine? Has he said anything about in hand work over poles / carrot stretches  to strengthen his core or is that not appropriate for KS? (Not arguing with vet, just interested)


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## ponyparty (14 June 2018)

Partly to keep weight off (although I don't think he is actually overweight - he's just got this cresty neck all of a sudden); partly to get him moving, as he's off grass at the moment so is stood in his box most of the day; partly to stimulate blood supply and circulation to the legs, to reduce inflammation in the feet. That's how he explained it to me anyway. 
I'm not actually lunging for 40 full mins, for the record - I'm doing 10 mins warm up and cool down, and 20 mins of actual work - walk/trot/canter transitions, changes of direction etc. I try to use the whole school if I'm in there on my own, I don't see the value in a horse running round and round on tight circles. 
He's recommended using the Equi-Ami to get him engaged and working over his back, to support the KS recovery - I'm going to try this for the first time tonight and see how we go. I'm not expecting miracles though as, if it's uncomfortable for him to work "correctly" then surely he will just resist it?
He did seem to start relaxing his head/neck down a bit by the end of the 20 minutes of work on the lunge last night, so we shall see...

Vet hasn't mentioned carrot stretches etc yet - but that, along with straightness training, is something I was going to investigate myself. Once he's had the steroid injections, I assume that physio will also be prescribed, so I would hope for the physio to give me strengthening and stretching exercises to do with him. I was already planning lunging over scattered/raised poles to vary the work and keep him engaged (in both mind and core!) - this is what I had started doing before all this happened 
I booted him up in front last night to lunge, and he seemed to move more freely - so I wonder if even the rubber pieces of the arena surface were previously hurting his flat, sensitive feet..!


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## be positive (14 June 2018)

A cresty neck often comes from tension, a horse that holds itself in a tight way because of back or foot pain will frequently have a crest that is out of proportion to the rest of its body and has little to do with its weight, I have seen very lean horses with impressive but incorrectly built up crests, I suspect yours is much the same due to him holding himself the wrong way even when turned out, it can sometimes be seen on horses in no work.

I think putting shoes on is probably the best solution to help resolve his issues, while barefoot may be ideal it does not work for all horses in all scenarios and you have to do what is right for yours at the moment.


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## ponyparty (14 June 2018)

I didn't think of that, bp. But his crest has definitely become hard with the arrival of the lush grass. Either way - hopefully with exercise and moving properly, it'll subside soon. 

And thank you, re: the shoes - that is exactly what I'm thinking.


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## Reacher (14 June 2018)

Fingers crossed you'll soon be back with a positive update x


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## ponyparty (19 June 2018)

Collected pinworm treatment and administered first dose yesterday. Consists of: 
Panacur 5 day 
Ivermectin wormer administered rectally x 1
Ivermectin "paint" - applied after washing the area.

However, I've been applying Camrosa ointment for a week now - so he had already stopped rubbing his tail, his skin is healing and the hair is growing back. I will be VERY interested to see if there are any dead pinworms in his poo, or if (as I suspect) I've just wasted £80 on worming treatment for a horse with nothing more than sweet itch...!! 

I can't get hold of the remedial farrier I want, he was meant to phone back last Thursday/Friday and hasn't. I know he's really busy and not technically meant to be taking on new clients, but he did say he'd sort something out as I was a vet recommendation. 
In the meantime, my barefoot trimmer has recovered from his illness and will be in the area this Sunday - so I'm going to have him look at Bruce and see what he thinks. If he gives me some good options, which the vet will consider, I'll try that path first. If he agrees that for the sake of Bruce's other problems, I should just get him shod, then I'll harangue this remedial farrier with renewed vigour. His feet are not overly long in the meantime, so he's not desperate for a trim. I actually think it might have been good for them to just have a rest and let a bit of hoof wall grow down. They're looking a bit raggedy, but nothing that a walk up and down the lane wouldn't sort out. 

He is going well on the lunge - he still works hollow to begin with but I find the longer I work him, the more he relaxes (I found this ridden as well, it always took him a while to loosen up and start relaxing down into the contact). I'm currently doing, for example:
10 mins warm-up in walk
5 mins trot with lots of transitions down to walk and back again
5 mins trot/canter, lots of transitions
10 mins in Equi-Ami in walk/trot
10 mins cool down in walk
Does this all sound ok to you guys, am I on the right track? Equi-ami is only to be used for 10 mins and it's a big ask considering he's been out of proper work for some time now; I've got it on a fairly loose setting, I'm not asking him to bring his head in but rather down and out.

Last night, as someone had conveniently left poles in the school, I also did some zig zag poles, trotting poles on the ground and raised at alternate ends. Just a couple of times of each, to keep him interested. He certainly seemed to enjoy the pole work more - pricked his ears forward and looked interested, bless him! Will try and incorporate that every other day or two.  

We have a classically trained, international grand prix dressage trainer coming to the yard this weekend running clinics so I'm going to have a groundwork session with him on Sunday hopefully, get a few exercises I can be doing with B to encourage him to work over his back properly. 

Bitting - I've now tried the Myler ported loose ring and eggbutt snaffle from the Bit Bank, I'd say he goes marginally better in the eggbutt but still does his usual gurning. He hasn't got his tongue over the bit in either... yet, but still not ideal; if he's resisting the bit/uncomfortable in his mouth, this will be reflected in head/neck carriage and travel down his back. I'm going to try a single jointed Happy Mouth next (as someone has one they can lend me), any other suggestions welcome! I prefer French link as I think they're kinder but... some horses do go better in a single jointed bit, and he does have a dainty little mouth. So we shall see. 

Feeling more positive this week anyway, thanks everyone for all your input so far x


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## ester (19 June 2018)

If he's being fussy in the mouth which might not be helping getting the correct work do you need to bit him currently?


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## ponyparty (19 June 2018)

He needs bitting for use of the Equi-Ami i believe... Suppose I could hook it to the side rings of the lunge cavesson, but would this not change the action of it? 

I would rather just find him a bit he's comfortable in, to be honest. If I really can't find anything he is comfortable in, I'll have to rethink - but I'd prefer to just find something he likes and goes well in ASAP and then stick to that, for all groundwork and eventually ridden work, for continuity. 

I do like the idea of going bitless but I don't think it's for us, he's super spooky and strong and I just wouldn't trust that I could control him without being bitted. I'm sure I'll get a load of comments now saying that control shouldn't come from the bit etc... Yep I know that, but when you've got half a ton of sport horse on high alert, spooking, ready to flee from perceived danger, not responding to voice or other aids, you need whatever tools are in the box to keep you both safe.


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## ester (19 June 2018)

I thought you could maybe do both together, just possibly tricky finding the best bit option while introducing other new kit. 

I wasn't suggesting it as a long term solution, just that when re-establishing the basics/correct way of going it might be a) possible, b) better to take it out of the equation.

Fwiw frank much prefers a single joint over a french link and hates a lozenge but will also go in anything, just a bit differently so his definition of hate is lower than others. 

There are a lot of options out there now, almost too many!  A couple of friends have had fitting clinics and been pleased with the results.


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## ponyparty (19 June 2018)

ester said:



			I thought you could maybe do both together, just possibly tricky finding the best bit option while introducing other new kit. 

I wasn't suggesting it as a long term solution, just that when re-establishing the basics/correct way of going it might be a) possible, b) better to take it out of the equation.

Fwiw frank much prefers a single joint over a french link and hates a lozenge but will also go in anything, just a bit differently so his definition of hate is lower than others. 

There are a lot of options out there now, almost too many!  A couple of friends have had fitting clinics and been pleased with the results.
		
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Ah yeah OK - I was thinking more of long term/permanent solutions. I agree, there are too many options out there! I didn't think of fitting clinics, I had asked for advice from the Bit Bank but I suppose without seeing how the horse goes themselves, how would they know? 

I did go through a phase of lunging him in just a rope halter, but our school is massive and spooky (to Bruce...) and he broke free, galloped madly around the school, wound himself up even more and when I eventually caught him he was a sweating, snorting, rearing mess. So I went back to a bridle. I now use an Equi-Ami lunge cavesson with bit clips - so I can work him on the Equi-Ami from the bit, but not interfere with the action with the lunge line, which I clip to the cavesson. He only really does his gurning when you take up a contact; so it's the action of the bit that he doesn't like, not the fact he has it in his mouth, I guess. 

Deffo will try a single jointed one to start with, as I have access to one that I can try; then will consider a fitting clinic if no joy; and can look at bitless if I'm getting nowhere.


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## Pinkvboots (19 June 2018)

ponyparty said:



			Collected pinworm treatment and administered first dose yesterday. Consists of: 
Panacur 5 day 
Ivermectin wormer administered rectally x 1
Ivermectin "paint" - applied after washing the area.

However, I've been applying Camrosa ointment for a week now - so he had already stopped rubbing his tail, his skin is healing and the hair is growing back. I will be VERY interested to see if there are any dead pinworms in his poo, or if (as I suspect) I've just wasted £80 on worming treatment for a horse with nothing more than sweet itch...!! 

I can't get hold of the remedial farrier I want, he was meant to phone back last Thursday/Friday and hasn't. I know he's really busy and not technically meant to be taking on new clients, but he did say he'd sort something out as I was a vet recommendation. 
In the meantime, my barefoot trimmer has recovered from his illness and will be in the area this Sunday - so I'm going to have him look at Bruce and see what he thinks. If he gives me some good options, which the vet will consider, I'll try that path first. If he agrees that for the sake of Bruce's other problems, I should just get him shod, then I'll harangue this remedial farrier with renewed vigour. His feet are not overly long in the meantime, so he's not desperate for a trim. I actually think it might have been good for them to just have a rest and let a bit of hoof wall grow down. They're looking a bit raggedy, but nothing that a walk up and down the lane wouldn't sort out. 

He is going well on the lunge - he still works hollow to begin with but I find the longer I work him, the more he relaxes (I found this ridden as well, it always took him a while to loosen up and start relaxing down into the contact). I'm currently doing, for example:
10 mins warm-up in walk
5 mins trot with lots of transitions down to walk and back again
5 mins trot/canter, lots of transitions
10 mins in Equi-Ami in walk/trot
10 mins cool down in walk
Does this all sound ok to you guys, am I on the right track? Equi-ami is only to be used for 10 mins and it's a big ask considering he's been out of proper work for some time now; I've got it on a fairly loose setting, I'm not asking him to bring his head in but rather down and out.

Last night, as someone had conveniently left poles in the school, I also did some zig zag poles, trotting poles on the ground and raised at alternate ends. Just a couple of times of each, to keep him interested. He certainly seemed to enjoy the pole work more - pricked his ears forward and looked interested, bless him! Will try and incorporate that every other day or two.  

We have a classically trained, international grand prix dressage trainer coming to the yard this weekend running clinics so I'm going to have a groundwork session with him on Sunday hopefully, get a few exercises I can be doing with B to encourage him to work over his back properly. 

Bitting - I've now tried the Myler ported loose ring and eggbutt snaffle from the Bit Bank, I'd say he goes marginally better in the eggbutt but still does his usual gurning. He hasn't got his tongue over the bit in either... yet, but still not ideal; if he's resisting the bit/uncomfortable in his mouth, this will be reflected in head/neck carriage and travel down his back. I'm going to try a single jointed Happy Mouth next (as someone has one they can lend me), any other suggestions welcome! I prefer French link as I think they're kinder but... some horses do go better in a single jointed bit, and he does have a dainty little mouth. So we shall see. 

Feeling more positive this week anyway, thanks everyone for all your input so far x
		
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I understand about the shoes you have to do what is right at the time, as for the itching one of my horses only rubs his tail and only in the summer I think its just an irritation from bites and the heat, as he never rubs his mane or anywhere else, I put wonder gel on the top of his tail and it does stop it but you have to do it everyday, I cant use strong products on his skin he is allergic to so many things so I just stick to what I know his ok with.


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## ponyparty (19 June 2018)

Pinkvboots said:



			I understand about the shoes you have to do what is right at the time, as for the itching one of my horses only rubs his tail and only in the summer I think its just an irritation from bites and the heat, as he never rubs his mane or anywhere else, I put wonder gel on the top of his tail and it does stop it but you have to do it everyday, I cant use strong products on his skin he is allergic to so many things so I just stick to what I know his ok with.
		
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Thank you. And yeah - last summer he rubbed his forelock as well as his tail, which makes me suspect sweet itch/bite irritation. I am kicking myself for not just sticking with Camorsa ointment, which I know works and he's not allergic to. But he has had pinworm previously (or so I've been led to believe...), and it's renowned for recurring and being an absolute beast to get rid of; so I guess that's why the vet thinks it's that. 

Guess I'll find out when I see his poo later? How long do these wormers take to work, I wonder?


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## supsup (20 June 2018)

Don't expect to see any worms. I didn't, and yet I am convinced mine had pinworm, because his itchiness definitely decreased after treatment, and he's never been particularly itchy otherwise. As I mentioned above, I did double dose Pyrantel, then a week later the Panacur guard. By the time I finished the 5 day Panacur (and had washed his tail area to get the ivermectin residue off), he stopped being itchy. Previously, he'd try to back into me in the field to solicit a bum scratch a few times! Other days he'd seem ok, until I groomed him around his tail area, and doing that would then seem to make him more and more itchy (maybe like scratching a mosquito bite?). 
I would do the 5-day, give him a good wash and see what he's like after. BTW, how did you manage to spend £80 on the wormers? I'm afraid you may have been unlucky there! I spent £30 for the double pyrantel plus Panacur, and another £9 for two tubes of Mole valley ivermectin (which was enough to do the "ivermectin wash" thing around the anus. Vet told me proper ivermectin wash was difficult to get my hands on, and just to take a regular wormer).

BTW, I also washed all my grooming kit in Virkon S, and sprayed a few places around the yard with it that I'd seen him rub his bum on (fence posts).


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## ponyparty (20 June 2018)

supsup said:



			Don't expect to see any worms. I didn't, and yet I am convinced mine had pinworm, because his itchiness definitely decreased after treatment, and he's never been particularly itchy otherwise. As I mentioned above, I did double dose Pyrantel, then a week later the Panacur guard. By the time I finished the 5 day Panacur (and had washed his tail area to get the ivermectin residue off), he stopped being itchy. Previously, he'd try to back into me in the field to solicit a bum scratch a few times! Other days he'd seem ok, until I groomed him around his tail area, and doing that would then seem to make him more and more itchy (maybe like scratching a mosquito bite?). 
I would do the 5-day, give him a good wash and see what he's like after. BTW, how did you manage to spend £80 on the wormers? I'm afraid you may have been unlucky there! I spent £30 for the double pyrantel plus Panacur, and another £9 for two tubes of Mole valley ivermectin (which was enough to do the "ivermectin wash" thing around the anus. Vet told me proper ivermectin wash was difficult to get my hands on, and just to take a regular wormer).

BTW, I also washed all my grooming kit in Virkon S, and sprayed a few places around the yard with it that I'd seen him rub his bum on (fence posts).
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for that - interesting that you didn't see any worms. I discussed with the vet and she recommended we try this approach first. That is very disappointing about price, if  I'd realised I could pick some of these things up from a country store rather than buy from the vets at inflated prices, I would have done that instead  now I'm wondering about the double pyrantel too, whether I ought to give him that as well, a week after the Panacur... Off to google if I can get it anywhere else! He did have a rectal ivermectin wormer too - a whole tube of it up the bum. 

I've washed one of his rugs and the other will be done when the 5 days is up, and will be Virkoning surfaces at the weekend - he is in a sweet itch rug constantly and vet seemed to think it unlikely that eggs would transfer to surfaces as he is unable to come into direct contact with any; I'm just going to keep washing his rugs regularly, weekly probably. Hadn't thought about grooming kit, I'll have to Virkon that too... What fun!

His butt is looking better every day and the hair growing back nicely, so that's something at least...


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## supsup (20 June 2018)

Fingers crossed it will do the job... In case it does turn out to be a sweet itch thing in the end, I find the biteback products (particularly the sweet relief cream) to be quite economic and effective. A few friends of mine on the yard have horses with full SI and after years of trying all sorts have settled on this stuff. I use it on sheath and in ears against midges/ear biting flies on my gelding. A 500g tub costs £12 and lasts me the entire summer (for the smallish amounts I need. The full-on SI horses need more.). Definitely cheaper than a similar amount of camrosa ointment.


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## ponyparty (21 June 2018)

Ooh thanks for the tip supsup - will have to try that stuff. Maybe once he's all healed up and hair has grown back. The only thing is, he's also allergic to lots of products! Neem oil being one of them. Doesn't look like there is Neem in that one though, so worth a try if it can save me money. My poor bank balance at the moment


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## ponyparty (25 June 2018)

Update: Trimmer came out yesterday. I was hoping for a definitive answer - I got lots of information but probably more questions than answers! 

I'll try to remember all the key points: 

- Bruce's feet are looking amazing, compared to the first time trimmer saw them
- He is walking fine on flat concrete, but still picks his way over challenging surfaces - our yard surface is amongst the most challenging type, concrete/rubble so trimmer agrees he should be booted to cross this... although less challenging surfaces e.g. just a bit of gravel etc should be OK and he should be asked to cross them. 
- Trimmer agrees it would be a shame to nail shoes on now, after such a massive improvement, but that equally Bruce is under the vet and insurance company are involved so I need to take vet advice. Even if I put shoes back on him now, we can take them off again and his feet would still be much better than when trimmer first saw him. If I do go down shoeing route, get farrier to use extra thin clenches and choose farrier very carefully, use one who will work with me for the aim of taking shoes back off. 
- Trimmer is going to look into alternative shoeing options and try to find a local contact for me e.g. glue on shoes, or a sort of resin shoe which they paint on in layers and then just trim off x weeks later as the hoof grows. 
- Vet originally said that 6 weeks of working B in Equi Ami and he should be ok to get saddle fitter back out and start ridden work. I'm not going to, for various reasons, but the point is that vet seemed to think it's going to be a short rehab time. Whether this is too optimistic, I don't know. Anyway, trimmer said for such a short rehab it would be a shame to put shoes back on - if it were going to take 6 months, then maybe worth it.
- He also said that I should speak to my vet - explain to vet how much the hooves have improved, show comparison photos of Bruce's feet when he had retracted soles, severe bruising, which had abscessed. This is still growing out - you can see the discolouration of the sole, it has nearly grown out but he is still sensitive in that area. He just needs time - and stimulus - to grow new sole.
- If I'm to keep him barefoot, he's recommended trying to get an area of pea shingle for him. I don't think this'll happen, what livery owner would want to do that? Even if they agreed I'd have to pay for it myself and what if I then moved? So I don't know how practical that'll be. Will have to see. 

I took some photos yesterday after the trim, my lovely boyfriend will put them next to old photos in photoshop later and I'll post them then so easy to compare. 
Will be interesting to compare when I first took shoes off, to when trimmer first saw B, to now. 

So - no answers really! I think the option I want to go for is temporary, non invasive i.e. glue on or other alternative shoes, if vet will agree to it. But if not, then I think I will just get him shod, as it will only be short term and trimmer is happy that we will be able to get his feet back fairly easily. He's growing good quality hoof down, just need the crap stuff to finish growing out and he'd have lovely feet.


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## ester (25 June 2018)

Shoes are temporary too, arguably nails are an even more temporary attachment than glue. 
Glue ons had advantages and disadvantages depending on which ones you are considering and what for. The main drawback is the limited ability you have to shape/adjust them to a horse compared to using metal.
If going that route the performance easyshoe will also allow the back of the hoof to do it's thing (and has a nailing option)


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## be positive (25 June 2018)

ester said:



			Shoes are temporary too, arguably nails are an even more temporary attachment than glue. 
Glue ons had advantages and disadvantages depending on which ones you are considering and what for. The main drawback is the limited ability you have to shape/adjust them to a horse compared to using metal.
If going that route the performance easyshoe will also allow the back of the hoof to do it's thing (and has a nailing option)
		
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I agree you need to look at the bigger picture and do what is going to be best and easiest to get right at this stage. 
Also the rehab is not just 6 weeks, the 6 weeks lunging is just the start, the whole rehab will take as long as it takes and to a degree will be a lifelong commitment, I think your vet has not made that very clear and your trimmer is being too literal in her interpretation or lacks understanding of how long it can take to build up the body correctly.


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## ponyparty (25 June 2018)

ester said:



			Shoes are temporary too, arguably nails are an even more temporary attachment than glue. 
Glue ons had advantages and disadvantages depending on which ones you are considering and what for. The main drawback is the limited ability you have to shape/adjust them to a horse compared to using metal.
If going that route the performance easyshoe will also allow the back of the hoof to do it's thing (and has a nailing option)
		
Click to expand...

Thanks ester - have sent a link about the easyshoe performance to my trimmer. 
I'm thinking it'll probably just be easier to shoe him for now... as long as I choose my farrier wisely then hopefully his feet won't be too bad when I take the shoes back off again! So annoying when you see how good they're looking though. Still - feet are easier to fix than spine, so got to focus on that really I guess?!


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## ponyparty (25 June 2018)

be positive said:



			I agree you need to look at the bigger picture and do what is going to be best and easiest to get right at this stage. 
Also the rehab is not just 6 weeks, the 6 weeks lunging is just the start, the whole rehab will take as long as it takes and to a degree will be a lifelong commitment, I think your vet has not made that very clear and your trimmer is being too literal in her interpretation or lacks understanding of how long it can take to build up the body correctly.
		
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I fully agree BP - I don't for a second believe that 6 weeks of lunging in an Equi Ami is going to cure my horse! And do realise that it'll be a lifelong commitment, ensuring he's working correctly to keep that spine elongated. 
The vet is Italian so I think the language barrier doesn't help, but he did say he saw no reason why he shouldn't be ridden after steroid injections and 6 weeks rehab on the lunge in Equi-Ami. 
I dont even particularly believe that the Equi Ami is the best thing long term, hence why I'm also doing groundwork clinics and looking at other forms of exercise that can help. I'm still doing the Equi Ami too though. 

I think unless I can quickly find a farrier who can put these fancy rubber/plastic shoes on, then I'm just going to get the best possible recommendation and go with traditional shoes. A shame that I can't get hold of Carl Wain, I know he's chocka though and not meant to be taking on new clients so I don't really blame him! Just don't want a farrier who is going to undo all my good work over the last nearly 6 months


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## ponyparty (9 July 2018)

Well, Bruce had shoes put back on his fronts on Friday - used Harvey Lymer in the end on a recommendation. 
He put on shoes that are slightly wider at the heel, with two toe clips and a bevel on the toe to keep the breakover short. 
He did say that we can try barefoot again at a later date, his soles are still pretty soft and we need to work on concavity.

Working him in this heat has been torture for both of us, I'm doing it either early morning or late evening but I'm exhausted from it all, it's no fun being pregnant in the heat  hope it breaks soon, I am so fed up of being hot and sweaty and it's making me so grumpy! 

Vet said he will reassess for steroid injections in about a week - but I'm not convinced it's safe to give them to him, his neck felt a bit cresty again last night! HOW? He is getting probably 2 hours max turnout, muzzled, soaked hay only, topped up with oat straw chop (using TopChop Zero at the moment but switching to Honeychop this week as he's finding the TopChop too palatable and scoffing it too fast!). I'm watching him like a hawk. 

He has been sweating in his stable in his sweet itch rug, so I bought a lighter fly rug - clearly doesn't keep the midges away from his tail head as the two night's he's had that on, he's lad little scabs on his tail the next day. I can't win! 

I've also wormed now with Pyrantel (as well as all the other wormers, washing his bum regularly, washing his rugs weekly, virkoning surfaces etc...) and the scabs are still appearing so I cannot believe it can be pinworm... SURELY..?!

Apparently the plonker got cast on Saturday too, I wasn't there and the girls on the yard managed to pull him over. He's not done that before! He stayed calm, I'm told, and is none the worse for it (as far as I can see). I haven't asked him to do much since, to be fair, as it's been too hot - so next time I pop him on the lunge will be monitoring closely.

Please tell me that one day I won't feel totally stressed out about this horse!!


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## ponyparty (16 July 2018)

Further update: 

Vet came out to reassess on Friday, and also take blood for adiponectin test for EMS. He assessed Bruce on the lunge and said that generally he is very happy with his progress. He is building up condition and is working correctly in the Equi-Ami. However, he is not stepping under fully with his right hind; we have started him on Danilon (1 per day) and I am to continue working him, then vet is going to reassess in 3 weeks. If he is then moving correctly, we take him off Danilon and reassess without it - and if not then further investigative work will be done to locate where the source of pain is. Kissing spines is often a secondary condition that is caused by an issue further down. Just hope we can get to the bottom of it, treat it and get him back to full health. 

Bruce has felt a bit flat at times, so vet has advised me to start him on Equitop Myoplast or equivalent. My local feed store had NAF M Power on special offer this weekend so I got that instead, my understanding being that it does a similar job. He's also advised me to reduce the work on the lunge to 3 times per week, but higher intensity/for longer in the Equi Ami. I gace him the weekend off (mainly because it was too hot for me to function!) and will recommence the rehab program tonight. 

So, progress and feeling positive, but also some doubts over his hind leg soundness - and await the EMS test result. 

I'm moving him to a new yard in the next few weeks too, with hard standing turnout pens so he can go out and move around without being on grass. Their paddocks are also much smaller and the grass isn't as rich (well it's all dead at the moment anyway!) so hoping he can also have some normal turnout too.


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## ester (16 July 2018)

Well not buying the myoplast was the right decision!


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## ponyparty (16 July 2018)

ester said:



			Well not buying the myoplast was the right decision!
		
Click to expand...

Why so? I've read mixed reviews to be fair... Vet's reasoning is to help support the build up of muscle/topline, without upping the hard feed/calories too much. 
I have had a google and a look at some old threads on here, can't really find much about the NAF stuff I've bought... the myoplast is just spirulina and sugar, I believe? 
Knowing what a fussy so-and-so Bruce is, and having tasted spirulina myself (I used to put it in my smoothies - BLEURGH) I didn't want to risk spending that amount of money on something he probably wouldn't eat.


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## ester (16 July 2018)

Why would you want to give him that much sugar when you don't need to.

Dr Marlin I think did a nice comparison of oats v. linseed v. spirulina and how small an amount of each you would have to feed. 
https://www.facebook.com/DrDavidMar...t®-and-spirulina:-separating/594424007428491/

It seems baffling why vets are so keen on it to me anyway.

What else were you feeding supplement wise currently as the NAF one has quite a lot of ingredients/minerals.


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## ponyparty (16 July 2018)

Well, quite... Espcially in a potentially EMS horse. I considered feeding pure spirulina but the taste is so strong, I just know he wouldn't accept it. 

He's on Thunderbrooks Daily Essentials and a sprinkle of salt currently. 

I haven't started the NAF supplement yet, his first dose would be tomorrow. I think I need to do more reading into this, if the same (or better) results can be achieved with linseed, what is the point of all this fancy, expensive, unpalatable nonsense?! 

I think I have some linseed left in a feed bin in my garage... how long does it keep? I'd be reticent to start feeding oats, are they not terrribly heating? Or has this also been disproven (I've had people tell me that linseed is heating when it's been nothing of the sort...).


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## ester (16 July 2018)

In which case you are already feeding a lot of the ingredients by analysis in the NAF products


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## ponyparty (16 July 2018)

Sigh. Why don't I just set fire to a wad of £20 notes?

Wonder if the feed store will accept a return. I think I'll just go back to adding micronised linseed to his feed.

ETA - thanks ester!


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## ponyparty (18 July 2018)

Bruce has "evidence of metabolic obesity" - adiponectin 0.50 ug/ml. 
His insulin is working well so the plan is to continue with careful diet and exercise and reassess in 6 weeks.


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## ponyparty (3 August 2018)

Just a little update - vet came out to reassess today, after 3 weeks of working him in Equi Ami 3 times per week at a higher intensity, and a Danilon trial, since the last visit.

He is definitely a little stiff in his right hind, he swings it outwards rather than bringing it under his body. On the right rein, he is reluctant to maintain canter and disunites behind at times. 

Vet thinks it is probably his hocks, and has advised to shoe him behind as well as in front, with squared off, bevelled  shoes to assist with breakover. Farrier is due out in a couple of weeks, by which time we will have moved yards and he'll be on individual turnout, so I'll be happier about him having hinds on. 

I'm to concentrate on his canter when lunging,  2-3 times per week, perhaps doing some polework/cavaletti too and long reining in straight lines (out hacking maybe) so he's not just exercised on a circle all the time. Vet will come and reassess again in 3-4 weeks time, and we may consider injecting his hocks then, depending on how he has progressed. 

His back is much more mobile now, vet is really happy with how flexible he is and he is moving much more freely and with more cadence. Just need to sort these hocks out. Vet doesn't think he now needs steroid injections in his back - managing the issue through exercise and change of management is working, and if we get the hind limb issues sorted we should be on course for him to come back into ridden work once I've had the baby


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## Michen (3 August 2018)

Super best of luck to you both. X




ponyparty said:



			Just a little update - vet came out to reassess today, after 3 weeks of working him in Equi Ami 3 times per week at a higher intensity, and a Danilon trial, since the last visit.

He is definitely a little stiff in his right hind, he swings it outwards rather than bringing it under his body. On the right rein, he is reluctant to maintain canter and disunites behind at times. 

Vet thinks it is probably his hocks, and has advised to shoe him behind as well as in front, with squared off, bevelled  shoes to assist with breakover. Farrier is due out in a couple of weeks, by which time we will have moved yards and he'll be on individual turnout, so I'll be happier about him having hinds on. 

I'm to concentrate on his canter when lunging,  2-3 times per week, perhaps doing some polework/cavaletti too and long reining in straight lines (out hacking maybe) so he's not just exercised on a circle all the time. Vet will come and reassess again in 3-4 weeks time, and we may consider injecting his hocks then, depending on how he has progressed. 

His back is much more mobile now, vet is really happy with how flexible he is and he is moving much more freely and with more cadence. Just need to sort these hocks out. Vet doesn't think he now needs steroid injections in his back - managing the issue through exercise and change of management is working, and if we get the hind limb issues sorted we should be on course for him to come back into ridden work once I've had the baby 

Click to expand...


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## ponyparty (3 August 2018)

Michen said:



			Super best of luck to you both. X
		
Click to expand...

Thank you  x


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