# overdosing my pregnant dog on wormer !



## speedbird (5 October 2009)

I ve just wormed my pregnant bassett (pups due inabout a week) with panacur. I followed the measurements and gave her about 20 ml for her 23 kg weight. But now I ve reread the instructions on the other side for pregnant dogs, you re meant to split it over about 3 days ! Im really worried about the puppies now and what damage it could cause !


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## Super_Kat (5 October 2009)

Then call your vet!!!


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## katie_and_toto (5 October 2009)

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Then call your vet!!! 

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Ditto!


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## chevs (5 October 2009)

Panacur is normally dosed at bodyweight for 3 consecutive days so you wont have overdosed her.  She'll have to have the same tomorrow and the following day.


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## FestiveSpirit (5 October 2009)

No idea why you are worming her when she is due to whelp in a week  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 but call your vet if you are concerned/unsure


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## chevs (5 October 2009)

Just found this dosing guide lines on the internet

Dosage for Pregnant Dogs
Use Panacur Small Animal 2.5 percent (10 percent for large breeds) to keep your pregnant bitch from passing roundworms to her litter either pre-delivery or through her milk. Start on the 40th day of her pregnancy and continue until two days after she delivers. That should be about 25 days.

Give her 1ml of Panacur for every 2.2 lbs of body weight. That's 4ml if she's between 4.4 and 8.8 lbs; 8ml if she's 8.8 to 17.6 lbs; and 16ml if she's from 17.6 to 35 lbs. Mix the dose in her food right before she eats or administer it orally after she's eaten.


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## speedbird (5 October 2009)

we only wormed her because the vet told us to.


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## FestiveSpirit (5 October 2009)

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we only wormed her because the vet told us to. 

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Fair enough, I just have never heard of an in-whelp bitch being wormed so near to whelping, normally they are worm free from regular worming anyway


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## star (5 October 2009)

it's correct practice to worm pregnant bitches every day at a dose rate of 1 ml per 1 kg bodyweight daily from day 40 of pregnancy continuously to 2 days post-whelping (approximately 25 days)


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## FestiveSpirit (5 October 2009)

Wow thats really interesting, thanks Star  
	
	
		
		
	


	




  Mum has been breeding dogs for 55 years and has never wormed them during pregnancy, I'll let her know


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## MurphysMinder (6 October 2009)

Agree with Splotchy, I never wormed a bitch after 2nd week of pregnancy.  Amazing how ideas change. 
	
	
		
		
	


	




  As a matter of interest if the bitch is wormed following this regime what is advised for the worming of the puppies?


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## speedbird (6 October 2009)

Panacur say... Puppies should be treated at 2 weeks of age, 5 weeks of age and again before leaving the breeders premises .


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## MurphysMinder (7 October 2009)

I always followed that worming regime, but if the bitch is being wormed constantly from day 40 just wondered if it was still necessary


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## star (8 October 2009)

yes, roundworms are resistant little buggars.  no idea how they manage to get into pups when the mother has been wormed like that, but somehow they still do!


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## MurphysMinder (9 October 2009)

Not being difficult here,(just curious) but in that case why do such an intensive worming programme on the dam.  As long as the pups are routined wormly is it really necessary?


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## star (10 October 2009)

coz u dont worm the pups till 2wks old - if you dont worm the mother then they'll be riddled with them by 2wks of age.  if you worm mum then they'll be covered until they're 2wks and old enough to worm.


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## MurphysMinder (11 October 2009)

I haven't  found that to be the case, my bitches were always wormed regularly prior to mating, and once in the early stage of pregnancy but not again.  Worming the puppies at 2 weeks produced a few worms but I can honestly say in 30 years of breeding I have never had a litter "riddled" with worms.  If and when I have another litter I will probably try the panacur regime, but just wondered if it would make a huge difference.


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## star (11 October 2009)

but if you do mum with panacur, then your pups wont have any at 2wks old - surely this is better than a pup having any worms?


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## FestiveSpirit (11 October 2009)

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coz u dont worm the pups till 2wks old - if you dont worm the mother then they'll be riddled with them by 2wks of age.  if you worm mum then they'll be covered until they're 2wks and old enough to worm. 

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Got to disagree here Star, mum never worms her bitches so intensively and her puppies do not have worms


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## star (11 October 2009)

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coz u dont worm the pups till 2wks old - if you dont worm the mother then they'll be riddled with them by 2wks of age.  if you worm mum then they'll be covered until they're 2wks and old enough to worm. 

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Got to disagree here Star, mum never worms her bitches so intensively and her puppies do not have worms  
	
	
		
		
	


	





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how do you know?  have you examined the insides of their guts?  pups dont always show outward signs of having worms - doesn't mean they haven't got any.  my horse never shows any signs of having worms, but i still worm him!


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## FestiveSpirit (11 October 2009)

If you want to be nitpicking about it, they do not pass any worms when they have been wormed which are visible to the human eye... unlike my poor little lurcher pup who passed pure spaghetti when he was wormed at 8 weeks old


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## MurphysMinder (12 October 2009)

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but if you do mum with panacur, then your pups wont have any at 2wks old - surely this is better than a pup having any worms? 

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I agree it would be great if pups were worm free at 2 weeks, but you said yourself they are resistant little beggars,and if it is still necessary to worm at 2, 5 weeks etc it just seems to be putting a lot of extra chemicals into the bitch with  no end benefit . 
	
	
		
		
	


	




  However as I said previously, I will definitely discuss with my vet the new idea for worming if I take a litter in future.
I'm sorry Star really not trying to pick a fight with you, and I hope I am not one of those breeders who thinks they know better than vets , but I sometimes think vets are not prepared to listen to breeders opinons, and someone who has had experience of a breed for many years may just know a bit more about that breed than a newly qualified vet .


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## star (12 October 2009)

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[ QUOTE ]
but if you do mum with panacur, then your pups wont have any at 2wks old - surely this is better than a pup having any worms? 

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I agree it would be great if pups were worm free at 2 weeks, but you said yourself they are resistant little beggars,and if it is still necessary to worm at 2, 5 weeks etc it just seems to be putting a lot of extra chemicals into the bitch with  no end benefit . 
	
	
		
		
	


	




  However as I said previously, I will definitely discuss with my vet the new idea for worming if I take a litter in future.
I'm sorry Star really not trying to pick a fight with you, and I hope I am not one of those breeders who thinks they know better than vets , but I sometimes think vets are not prepared to listen to breeders opinons, and someone who has had experience of a breed for many years may just know a bit more about that breed than a newly qualified vet . 

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i'm hardly newly qualified anymore thanks!  the worming protocol is all to do with the life cycle of Toxocara canis.  Mine and your opinion doesn't really come into it - i'm not stating my opinion, I'm stating the guidelines provided by panacur and the facts behind them.  Why does this have to turn into a breeder vs vet thing?  You're just adding to my several yrs of experience of most breeders at the moment.  So far most I've met automatically assume they know more than I do.  The ones who dont come across with that attitude are the ones I have the best relationship with and it's great because we are willing to learn from each other.  The rest just drive us up the wall.  I can write out the whole Toxocara life cycle if you want, but I'd rather not as you dont seem to really want to know.


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## MurphysMinder (13 October 2009)

Star, firstly I was not suggesting you were newly qualified, you misunderstood me there, I was talking about newly qualified vets having knowledge of one specific breed and I don't think we mentioned breed at all.  I have also said I have a good relationship with my vet and would discuss worming regimes if I have another litter.  If I felt I knew more than them I would not have their number showing up on my friends and family phone list  
	
	
		
		
	


	




    And if we had a bad relationship they wouldn't put people in touch with me for breed specific advice ! You are  being a bit harsh saying you feel I don't want to know, if I didn't want to know I wouldn't be asking, I would just be saying you are wrong, I don't think I have said that anywhere!
Sorry if you feel it is vet vs breeder, I have never really felt this in the past.  However, in the last week I have heard of vet students being told that if they go to their FIRST whelping, and it is a breeder, they shouldn't let the breeder tell them what to do.  I know some breeders can be arrogant but if  they have called a vet out they are presumably accepting there is a problem, I don't thing new vets should be told to automatically overrule someone who has loads more experience in whelping.  Telling them something like this is just creating the poor opinion of breeders that some vets seem to have.
I have gleaned lots of information from posts of yours on HHO,  and probably will in the future, I really hope you can read back through my questions on this thread and realise I was not arguing with you, just asking for information about something I hadn't heard of before.


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## star (13 October 2009)

well, your post came across as accusing me of not listening to breeders opinions or accepting they might know more than me so if you are saying that's not what you meant then I apologise for snapping.

The toxocara life cycle is similar to that of encysted redworms in horses which needs the panacur 5 day course to sort them out (or did before they became resistant to panacur).  we dont have a dog version of Equest so have to use Panacur and it seems roundworm aren't resistant to it yet.  the life cycle stages encyst in the gut walls and normal routine wormer doesn't kill them so when the bitch lactates the larvae pass out in the milk infecting the pup so by 2wks old it can have a significant infection.  worming the bitch with daily panacur stops this happening.  in theory doing it this way should ensure the pups then wouldnt need worming until they left the home, but somehow the odd one will sneak through and therefore it's still worth worming pups at 2, 5 and 8wks for full protection.

funnily enough we were having a discussion at work today about how many of our breeders actually use the panacur regime for the bitch and it's def not that many.  Perhaps it's something we need to try and advise more strongly on, but TBH I've found most breeders dont want to change the way they've done things for yrs if they've not had any major probs with it.  that's the message we seem to get every time we suggest anything new anyway.  just because a regime hasn't caused a major prob, doesn't mean there's not something better out there.  I used to worm my horses with panacur 5 day and never had a problem, but after reading research about resistance to panacur i made the switch to Equest and still dont have any probs.


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## MurphysMinder (13 October 2009)

My last para was having a moan about vets not listening to breeders, as I opened it by saying I didn't want to pick a fight with you I hoped you wouldn't take it personally, but on reading it again its easy to see how you would, sorry.  I haven't bred a litter in 9 years, hopefully may do so in a year or twand tbh I would never have considered asking my vets about wormers, would probably have just followed my usual regime so glad this has been discussed.  As it was raised at the BVA congress that vets and breeders need a better relationship perhaps it would be a good idea if the panacur regime was promoted in the dog press (it may have been already of course, I am not a regular reader).


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## speedbird (25 October 2009)

wow, thanks for all the advice guys, didn't realise it would open such a can of worms ( excuse the pun !) regardless of what i did worm my bitch, she had 8 large healthy pups !


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