# Does anyone have or know a nutty Connemara?



## Patterdale (5 July 2018)

So last year I bought a lovely 3 year old performance bred connie. 

Fast forward 10 months and, despite spending £100s on schooling and being no novice myself, he's been branded dangerous to the point I've been advised he be PTS. I can't work out why he is doing the behaviour. 

Since this has happened I've started coming across lots of people who've had or known of similar Connemaras. Before this I thought they were one of the nicest breeds, temperament wise. Now I'm wondering. 

Soooo.....anyone else?


----------



## ycbm (5 July 2018)

Patterdale said:



			So last year I bought a lovely 3 year old performance bred connie. 

Fast forward 10 months and, despite spending £100s on schooling and being no novice myself, he's been branded dangerous to the point I've been advised he be PTS. I can't work out why he is doing the behaviour. 

Since this has happened I've started coming across lots of people who've had or known of similar Connemaras. Before this I thought they were one of the nicest breeds, temperament wise. Now I'm wondering. 

Soooo.....anyone else?
		
Click to expand...

Friend has a ten year old who is too much for most riders. Michen on here has one that's been very tricky. I know a few others that are very sharp little horses. I would be wary of advising anyone to buy one unless they wanted a competition animal.


----------



## Patterdale (5 July 2018)

That's exactly what I wanted lol but he got a few weeks into breaking then starting exploding and bolting (proper bolting) v unpredictably and strangely. 
Got sent home from one v angry trainer and then another disappointed and bewildered trainer. Been advised never to think of getting on him.


----------



## ester (5 July 2018)

All the performance bred ones I've known have been **** sharp and quite, ermm fragile personalities if that makes sense, the sort to take things to heart?

Has he taken off again? - I see that's probably a yes, , how much vet work has he had?


----------



## Patterdale (5 July 2018)

He had back x rays and all kinds of checks then 6 weeks in the field. Came back and now won't even lunge or long rein. He just randomly explodes and turns himself inside out, no regard for anyone's safety or his own. Could be stood in the stable, could be 20 minutes in when he's walking on a long rein after working well. No rhyme or reason, no trigger and no warning. 

It's weird and upsetting  I haven't actually seen it which makes it harder to process as he's never done it with me.


----------



## ester (5 July 2018)

I thought that was the case, sadly I suspect something is causing it that you won't be able to find if it's that random, in the stable etc .


----------



## Goldenstar (5 July 2018)

I know a lovely Connie he been with his family for years and years I have to say he&#8217;s a naughty naughty boy but a great horse .


----------



## KittenInTheTree (5 July 2018)

My view based on what you've posted is that he's barely even four years old yet - still very much a baby, and growing/maturing both physically and mentally. Mine (also performance bred) was a right pain at that age. By five he'd begun to settle down again, and now aged six he's delightful (but still growing). So I'd be inclined to turn your one away and forget about training him for at least a year, especially since you go on to say that he's never demonstrated the behaviour in question with you. He may just need more time. Personally, I think there's a stupid fashion in place for starting them far too young, and these sorts of behaviours are very probably related to that. Just my opinion, do feel free to ignore and/or mock as preferred.


----------



## Nari (6 July 2018)

Not a Connemara but an ID who sounds almost identical. He got worse & worse until we finally found he had gastric ulcers, once those were treated his behaviour improved though he always remained quirky & sensitive. I carried on for a long time before we got a diagnosis because he was the nicest person & I knew there had to be a reason for the explosions, he was too kind to do it for the hell of it & also he seemed to almost lose control of actions when the outbursts happened, often seeming shocked & shaky afterwards.

If he was mine I'd feel he was far too young & early in his education to make such a drastic decision as pts. I'd get him scoped, treat if I got a positive result & treat for hindgut ulcers *which don't show on a scope) if I didn't. I'd also turn away from all work & treat as a pet for a while, probably trying again next spring & going very slowly to make sure he was relaxed & happy with each step before moving on.


----------



## MotherOfChickens (6 July 2018)

worrying and weird that he even does it in the stable. agree at 4yo though, I would treat for ulcers (if you've not already) and see if you can get him turned away for a fair while and then maybe see if someone like Maxwell or Peace were an option. I have a horse thats a non-ridden fwiw (not a connie though) and I spent as much on diagnostics and pro help that I could and then cut my losses but his issues were only when ridden.

eta my horse is a breed that seemingly indifferent breeding has introduced some issues-of the group that mine came over with most have had to specialist trainers such as J Webb etc. I also think some of the issues with mine were brought about by unsympathetic starting that I didnt know about until after it had happened.


----------



## SpringArising (6 July 2018)

I don't think I'd go any further with a horse who's unpredictably dangerous on the ground. It's not worth it. 

We've only had one Connie but he chucked my mum off and broke her shoulder. I had him back a few years later and while he wasn't nutty he was a rude little ****** and tried to deck me as well!

My friend bought a Connie and had to sell on to a pro rider. 

I think as with all breeds there are hot and 'normal' ones.


----------



## Casey76 (6 July 2018)

The two Connemaras I&#8217;ve known personally were nutters.

One was 20+ and regularly used to make unilateral decisions whilst hacking; the other was a competition pony, and regularly used to get warnings at the xc phase in ODE for being &#8220;out of control&#8221;


----------



## be positive (6 July 2018)

I have had two in my yard fairly recently, the first had man made issues of separation anxiety and being nervous in traffic but was otherwise safe and sensible, he was a really smart pony that had been failed by his previous owner/ trainers so never achieved very much living here as a hack until he was pts. 
The other became a super confidence giving competition schoolmaster while here, he was uncomplicated in almost every way and could never have been described as anything other than straightforward and sane to ride, both were bred in England and had very few homes.


----------



## MotherOfChickens (6 July 2018)

hmm, I have known of some a couple of headbanger TB x Connies and always put it down to the TB part!


----------



## BenvardenRach2 (6 July 2018)

I own a connie and a connie x ISH they are both fab and i do not have any behavior/ridden issues with them, only thing i will say is that they are stubborn bu**ers haha!
Like others have said unfortunately not all personalities reflect the breed characteristics, I hope it's just him being a baby and not being ready to 'adult' yet... fingers crossed  he comes right


----------



## [59668] (6 July 2018)

I had a VERY tricky quirky sharp verging on dangerous one.  Would never get another


----------



## Laafet (6 July 2018)

Mine could be counted in this sort of area, we have come to an agreement now, me and him, where he has promised not to kill me and I don't stress him out. He has strange OCD tendancies, like having to poo at the side of wherever he is, so he won't go on the road and gets upset if you don't let him park in a bush, he also must absolutely has to stop to perform the act otherwise he has a mental breakdown when the poo touches his legs. We went through a really bad patch where I had to dope him to ride him, he was incredibly sharp and reactive putting me on the deck a number of times. Turned out he hated the competition yard we were on and after I had had some mindset coaching and moved him to a more chilled out yard with 24/7 turn this behaviour decreased so I don't dope him any more. However he is constantly on that cusp of being hysterical at times so I would not put anyone else on him, he is very strong and quick when he wants to be. That said, I love him to bits and he is my best friend, he's not everyone's cup of tea but he is mine.


----------



## honetpot (6 July 2018)

I have owned four, my old boy who is 18 who I have just bought back is not an easy pony. I bought him from the breeder estate when he was two, and backed him at 3/4 ourselves, he was easy and uncomplicated but we did everything slowly. We sold him as my daughter was 5'9'' at fourteen to an experienced Connemara home, where he did well in competitions but reading between the lines I think he was a bit much for his older owner and someone else rode.
  I then lost track of him for nearly 12 years, but looking at his passport he changed hands every two years, he was an expensive pony but I think if you press the wrong buttons or get after him he dumps people. I caught up with him about three years ago when he was being ridden nicely by a 12 year old, who asked little of him and they got on well. When they sold him he had 3 homes in two years an that is when I bought him back.

I worked on a Connemara stud in the 70's, and the ponies then were nearly all under 13.2, and more Thelwell type, not the taller SP/RP we see to today, I wish I had more photos of the dumpy brood mares back then. The trouble is now they have combined the ponies active mind with the athleticism of a TB type, which has the ability to twist, buck and run. You not only have to have the ability to ride well but understand a ponies brain, trying to school it out of them just makes them fitter and more creative. 
  My other three Connemaras all had a kink and if I wanted to choose an even tempered pony from a breed I would go to NF or Highland which so far do not seen to have been overly selected.
  I think a lot of trainers make the mistake of thinking a pony is a small horse, it is definitely not and has a completely different attitude to work and seems to be able to spot rider mistakes and retain them. That's why I think you have to train the rider to ride the pony and there is usually no value in a trainer schooling it as soon as the 'weaker' rider gets on its just sees an open door.


----------



## SEL (6 July 2018)

Patterdale said:



			He had back x rays and all kinds of checks then 6 weeks in the field. Came back and now won't even lunge or long rein. He just randomly explodes and turns himself inside out, no regard for anyone's safety or his own. Could be stood in the stable, could be 20 minutes in when he's walking on a long rein after working well. No rhyme or reason, no trigger and no warning. 

It's weird and upsetting  I haven't actually seen it which makes it harder to process as he's never done it with me.
		
Click to expand...

It does sound like some sort of pain reaction. Is he back home now? When you say he wont lunge or long rein now is that with you at home? It is something I would want to see for myself and assess before going down the PTS route. It is also one of those cases the Tom Beech & Rob Jackson's of this world can sometimes work a miracle with where the vets can't.


----------



## LaurenBay (6 July 2018)

Have you though of a possible tumor on the brain? A friend at the stables had to PTS her 4YO Horse for the same sort of issues, he was also very aggressive.


----------



## ester (6 July 2018)

LaurenBay said:



			Have you though of a possible tumor on the brain? A friend at the stables had to PTS her 4YO Horse for the same sort of issues, he was also very aggressive.
		
Click to expand...

That was my concern TBH.


----------



## confirmedponyaddict (6 July 2018)

I've owned my connemara for over 10 years now and when I first got him I could barely ride one side of him and he was never dangerous to handle but was always ready to run, couldn't keep weight on him as he was so anxious all the time. I would love to say he's totally changed...he hasn't, I've just learnt to manage him better, we are on our own yard, he is turned out with mares- hates other geldings, either bullies them or gets bullied- and he dislikes any kind of change, however tiny. Incredibly sharp to ride but once you know him he's a donkey. I adore him and would have another the same in a heartbeat (would be nice to have one that did the dressage element of eventing not just the double clear) but I realise for other people he would be the pony from hell. 
Re the unpredictable behaviour, we had one in the dealer yard I used to work at that would behave like that, never got him diagnosed (because my boss was a heartless cow who didn't care) but we suspected broken ribs as it always happened when you went near his sides, but he didn't do it every time. Might be worth giving him some time and if it is some kind of traumatic injury it may sort itself...long shot I know but sometimes things melt away on their own.


----------



## Patterdale (6 July 2018)

Thanks very much for all the replies. 

Brain tumour/some kind of neurological issue is what the trainer thinks. I asked the vet who pooh-poohed it saying it's an urban myth to explain bad behaviour and that he'd never seen one in 30 years of practice. So I dunno. 

Since he's come back I've been reminded of what a lovely pony he is to deal with. He was such an easy breaker, my kids were riding him round the yard after a few weeks, just very kind. He's always had a bit about him, never been a dope on a rope but he's always been kind. Which is why I struggle with what everyone here is telling me. 

My options are pretty limited; 
1. start working him again myself
2. send to another trainer
3. turn away
4. sell
5. investigate
6. PTS

1. I'm not allowed as he's been branded dangerous. I also don't want to for the same reasons. Not an option. 
2. I think it would be irresponsible to put someone else in danger, and would also stress him beyond belief. Not an option.
3. I don't have endless space and grass for useless horses but it could be done. But then what!?
4. I would actually consider this to the right home - if he wasn't what he is. But a well bred, nice colour 14.2 Connemara with amazing paces, a massive jump and a lovely nature is a dodgy dealers dream. If he was 16hh and I didn't think a child might get him, I might. But as it is - not an option. 
5. Expensive - and to what end? Even if he has terrible ulcers, should something with such extreme reactions be ridden?
6. Probably the most sensible and safest option on paper - but I just can't. He's a nice, kind healthy pony. Not an option. 

Personally, I think it's pain. I think he's screaming at us. I don't think he's just a wrong un. 

I think I'm going to get him scoped for ulcers and any other diagnostic things we can come up with. He's insured. He'll then have had a good chance?

Any thoughts very welcome!!


----------



## Red-1 (6 July 2018)

I remember reading about your pony, how you backed him and he was no trouble then went to a trainer where he was. 

The fact that the trainer was angry makes me think something untoward was done, even if unintentional. Anger at a horse with problems is not a normal  reaction of a good trainer. It seems defensive to me.


The second trainer sounds more genuine. 


It must be hard for you as you have not had any of this behaviour. I guess, if you don't want to have a sit yourself (understandably) that it depends on how much money you want to throw at it. Could he go to one of the specialist horse trainers? 


I take it he had the same saddle on at both training yards to the one you had at home? 


I would certainly have saddle, ulcers etc re-checked. A bute trial at a specialist yard if nothing is found?


----------



## Patterdale (6 July 2018)

The first trainer was very angry and I strongly suspect the horse had a good hiding from him  
I sent a well-fitting saddle with him but in the bucking video he sent the pony had a massive saddle on which clearly didn't fit as it was flying everywhere. He also had no hat and trainers on.....

The second trainer he had a well-fitting saddle. He didn't Buck with him until day 5 and I immediately had his back checked and x rayed when a small sore spot was found. X Ray was clear and another back check 3 weeks later was fine.


----------



## ester (6 July 2018)

I think for your own sanity throwing vet work that the insurance will hopefuly pay out for is not a bad route to take. Nor would getting Tom beech/rob out to give an opinion/see if they have any hunches. 

You've had him a fair time pre backing without issues or strange reactions to things so I'd wonder if A something happened at the first yard that you have not been told about, or backing has aggravated something that is seriously painful when in affects him.

I've known one with a tumour, but he did go from fine to very strange over  period of days (and was obviously PTS quick then).


----------



## Nari (6 July 2018)

If he has ulcers that are causing him problems then you may well find the extreme reactions go away once they're treated, I know it did with mine. He could still be sharp & opinionated but the sudden explosion that came with no warning & with no regard to either of our safety stopped, and it was only then I realised just how extreme his behaviour had been. It may take him some time to realise things don't hurt anymore, and for you to trust him again, but at 4 you have time. 

If you don't want to work with him yourself would it be possible to get someone in to work with him at home with you there? It would be far less stressful for him, though I'd still leave him until spring unless you can find & fix a physical problem that takes away the pain.


----------



## Kezzabell2 (6 July 2018)

Are you sure your horse is not in pain?

My connie x tb was branded dangerous / needing to be sold to someone who could handle him.

before I decided to part with him, I got the vet out to make sure he didn't have any kind of mental health issues.  Guess what! he was actually lame!  and despite paying £45 every week for a lesson with a "professional" no one noticed this.

He has hock spavin on this back left and pedal osteitis on his front right!  after a year of treatment and remedial shoing, my vet suggested removing his shoes!! this was almost 3 years ago! and guess what I no longer have a dangrous horse!!

Okay he doesn't like schooling and will try it on, but actually that doesn't both me, I can take him anywhere else with absolutely no issues!

PS he was 18 months old when I got him!! his issues occurred when he was 4, had been backed for about 6 months.  He's now 8!


----------



## WelshD (7 July 2018)

I had a few problems with my mare at one point, nowhere near as bad as yours and she isn't a Connie but for what it's worth I will relate....

 I had various people all happy to chip in with their opinions (some professional people some not) ranging from Wobblers, a brain tumour, blindness to her being an angry mare with a bad attitude and her 'brain had gone' (that last one after she had thrown herself on the floor in the stable in a 'temper') 

I got more and more confused and ran myself ragged with vets, behaviourists, dentist, farrier, saddler etc etc before realising (with help from a fresh set of  eyes) that it all came down to how the mare was being handled and her routine (or lack of one) she was just so sensitive that she couldn't cope with people in a hurry, bashing buckets together, throwing tack on her etc.. and a lack of routine meant she didn't know what was coming next, it literally was that straightforward. She is a completely changed mare with a bit of tweaking to her management

When she next went off the rails she started to panic and run with her child rider but again this came down to handling her sensitive side, things started to spiral again because the pony needed help coping, needed direction etc but the rider was too busy being nervous or angry to help so the pony panicked

I've learned that trainers aren't necessarily good or bad but sometimes not a good 'fit' for a particular equine's personality, they don't always adjust their handling to acommodate the different personalities of their charges

If your gut is telling you that the pony you have now is not what you sent away for schooling I would go with that gut instinct and hang in there

I'd personally either turn the pony away and take all pressure off or I would send him to someone like Micky Gavin for evaluation, Micky is I suppose what they describe as a natural horsemanship person however alongside that he has a huge amount of really solid common sense and bravery to take on these sorts of cases. He is expensive but he doesn't overload his stables to make ends meet, he only has in what he has time to cope with


----------



## SusieT (7 July 2018)

They don't tolerate abuse. My guess is he has either been pushed beyong a point he didn't understand (he is only just 4) and flipped, or has a painful stimulus somewhere. 

I'd work very slowly and build up his confidence at teeny tiny steps - very few horses are 'bad' just misunderstood or overdone.


----------



## Daughter of the Moor (9 July 2018)

He is a baby. Native ponies are late to mature. he will not be physically or mentally mature until around six. I suspect he is letting you know he is not ready fro ridden work and is probably very confused by having been to two different trainers as well as being ridden by you. Please give him a break, turn him away and allow him to grow up before expecting him to work.


----------



## gallopingby (9 July 2018)

I agree, can't push young natives and five is quite old enough to start doing some work. If they're handled /treated kindly as babies they'll go on much longer than the TB types that are backed and ridden at 3. How many of them are still active when they're 20 years plus? I once sent a pony to a "professional" she's been broken and was hacking out nicely, the pony came back 'broken' and all I could do was turn away - the vet was horrified at the state of the ponies mouth. She's been playing in the field for the last few years but is now finally ready to start doing some work. Won't ever be one to sell though. A lot of 'professionals' are not all they seem these days, many don't have the time to put into all the animals they take on and so frequently a rushed job is done or the pony is pushed to quickly when they realised its been on their yard for a few months and they haven't done as much as they should, often because they've been out with other well established older animals thus creating a good impression to the unsuspecting public.


----------



## starfish8 (9 July 2018)

I would also be investigating for physical issues as he is insured, I couldn't in good conscience not - especially as you say this behaviour wasn't in evidence before you sent him away. I would say something has changed, either physically, environmentally, emotionally - to produce this change in behaviour.  

I would also bring him home while you do this and see what happens to his behaviour.  Take all the pressure off and treat him as you were before you started doing any work with him - let him be a pony and see what happens to his behaviour. 

I'm not against sending horses away for breaking, but maybe the combination of a new environment, young horse, different people, different routine, being asked to work etc has blown his mind & he needs 'normal life' as he knows it.  Especially if that's happened twice over in a short period.  

He's only a baby, give him a chance.


----------



## Michen (9 July 2018)

I dont understand the hes a baby comments. Yes hes a baby, and absolutely therefore that should be a consideration regarding his behaviour under saddle. But this is a horse (if Im reading correctly) whose turning himself inside out, randomly, in his stable with no meaningful trigger?

Thats not normal behaviour and I dont think Id even consider getting on something like that ever again (and I say this as the owner of a very tricky Connie whose now 90% of the time wonderful).


----------



## Fiona (9 July 2018)

My 6yo connie though clever and spooky, is very sensible for his age.   He held it together yesterday when hubby's horse panicked in traffic, jumped a hedge and galloped off, I had to leave poor FIonn being held in the road by a lady while I ran on foot for help.

All those I know in our PC are also on the whole level headed.

I hope something turns up when you have your pony checked over (back, ulcers etc) and that he can have a few months off, and eventually become a good ridden pony...

Fiona


----------



## HashRouge (9 July 2018)

Michen said:



			I don&#8217;t understand the &#8220;he&#8217;s a baby&#8221; comments. Yes he&#8217;s a baby, and absolutely therefore that should be a consideration regarding his behaviour under saddle. But this is a horse (if I&#8217;m reading correctly) whose turning himself inside out, randomly, in his stable with no meaningful trigger?

That&#8217;s not normal behaviour and I don&#8217;t think I&#8217;d even consider getting on something like that ever again (and I say this as the owner of a very tricky Connie whose now 90% of the time wonderful).
		
Click to expand...

Yes I thought that, although I'm intrigued by the fact that the OP has never seen him do this. What is he generally like at home to lead/ handle/ stable?


----------



## starfish8 (9 July 2018)

Michen said:



			I don&#8217;t understand the &#8220;he&#8217;s a baby&#8221; comments. Yes he&#8217;s a baby, and absolutely therefore that should be a consideration regarding his behaviour under saddle. But this is a horse (if I&#8217;m reading correctly) whose turning himself inside out, randomly, in his stable with no meaningful trigger?

That&#8217;s not normal behaviour and I don&#8217;t think I&#8217;d even consider getting on something like that ever again (and I say this as the owner of a very tricky Connie whose now 90% of the time wonderful).
		
Click to expand...

It sounded to me like he's been lovely at home, and the turning himself inside out started while away from home and starting to work - and that physical causes etc haven't been ruled out.  What appears random might not be. And his age may well be a contributing factor in how he's reacting.  It may be that he is dangerous and a cause can't be found, in which case I agree with not ever getting back on it.  For me it just seemed to much of a coincidence with all the changes in his young life so I'd want to investigate further.


----------



## Ddraig_wen (9 July 2018)

A friend of mine has a rather sharp and somewhat explosive connie. She's pretty sensible at home but has ditched her in the ring at shows, run off a few times and can be ridiculously reactive if she's in one of her moods. Friend just sits there calmly and tries to reassure her but sometimes its not enough and she just explodes. She has no consistent trigger but she's working on her slowly. She's gone from actually running off to just threatening so hopefully she's getting better. They do try and avoid things that have set her off in the past


----------



## BBP (9 July 2018)

Not a Connemara but BBP was well known for being insane and flipping out seemingly randomly. Investigations included head CT scan, bone scan, blood tests, muscle biopsy, back x rays and scoping. Outcome was no brain tumour but instead severe hayfever leading to headaches (dies your horse have enlarged temporalis/ forehead muscles?), muscle disease (RER), sacroiliac injury and gastric ulcers. I had to treat all of those things before I was able to uncover my wonderful beautiful amazing little horses potential.


----------



## Abi90 (9 July 2018)

Oh I can post again! I agree it could be something physical. My very sensible and honest 5 yr old ID turned into a complete nightmare on February this year. She had gastric ulcers and a stifle issue, which combined were causing her a lot of pain and for her to react quite violently! She went from being lovely and forward to very backward and threatening to rear and buck if you asked her to move forward. She also became very stressy on the ground (although never did anything). Nearly 6 months, a yard move and a lot of vets fees later shes coming back into work absolutely fine. She just needed fixing and some chill time.

Both a professional and a very experienced vet told me it was just behavioural and she had an attitude problem

Explosive behaviour can absolutely be a result of ulcers which could be due to stress from being sent away or from another underlying pain issue. Especially as its a drastic change in behaviour


----------



## Patterdale (9 July 2018)

HashRouge said:



			Yes I thought that, although I'm intrigued by the fact that the OP has never seen him do this. What is he generally like at home to lead/ handle/ stable?
		
Click to expand...

He's 100%, has been since he came back. He's quiet as a mouse. He was tricky to lead at first and has never enjoyed being in the school ever but has always been very good to do and hack out. 

This is what bewilders me. I've known total nutters - but I really don't think he is one. 

He's home now and I'm going to try lunging him one day and see what happens


----------



## Patterdale (9 July 2018)

BBP said:



			Not a Connemara but BBP was well known for being insane and flipping out seemingly randomly. Investigations included head CT scan, bone scan, blood tests, muscle biopsy, back x rays and scoping. Outcome was no brain tumour but instead severe hayfever leading to headaches (dies your horse have enlarged temporalis/ forehead muscles?), muscle disease (RER), sacroiliac injury and gastric ulcers. I had to treat all of those things before I was able to uncover my wonderful beautiful amazing little horses potential.
		
Click to expand...

Hay fever is a very interesting idea, thank you! How was it diagnosed?

He's booked in for scoping and I will get anything else that I can think of investigated too. He's a really lovely pony, I paid a lot for him as an unbroken 3 year old, and as well as being top class HOYS quality he has such a lovely nature. So I'm not giving up yet. There is a reason - I just need to find it!


----------



## windand rain (9 July 2018)

seen a few quirky ones but never one thats totally unpredictable until a mare I raised from a foal was reported to be being nasty. Always as sweet as a nut with me and when living with me but apparently in pain and reactive when away.


----------



## millikins (9 July 2018)

I'm sure you have done this but have his teeth been checked by a proper EDT? Tooth pain could even cause the behaviour when stabled if he chewed something and caught a nerve?


----------



## minesadouble (9 July 2018)

Michen said:



			I dont understand the hes a baby comments. Yes hes a baby, and absolutely therefore that should be a consideration regarding his behaviour under saddle. But this is a horse (if Im reading correctly) whose turning himself inside out, randomly, in his stable with no meaningful trigger?

Thats not normal behaviour and I dont think Id even consider getting on something like that ever again (and I say this as the owner of a very tricky Connie whose now 90% of the time wonderful).
		
Click to expand...

Kind of agree with this, Ive known quite a few Connies and I tend to think of them as quite sharp but never known a lunatic and dont think age is an excuse for such dramatic behaviour.

Michen - I thought yours was a part bred - my mistake &#128561;


----------



## Patterdale (9 July 2018)

millikins said:



			I'm sure you have done this but have his teeth been checked by a proper EDT? Tooth pain could even cause the behaviour when stabled if he chewed something and caught a nerve?
		
Click to expand...

Yes, this was the first thing, done by the vet then checked by VERY experienced EDT.


----------



## BBP (9 July 2018)

Patterdale said:



			Hay fever is a very interesting idea, thank you! How was it diagnosed?

He's booked in for scoping and I will get anything else that I can think of investigated too. He's a really lovely pony, I paid a lot for him as an unbroken 3 year old, and as well as being top class HOYS quality he has such a lovely nature. So I'm not giving up yet. There is a reason - I just need to find it!
		
Click to expand...

Partly by process of elimination (CT scan showed no tumour or any other abnormalities) and partly my own observations backed up by my vets and reinforced by changes over time. 

Hed always been a bit nuts and scary but had a heart of gold, so when he got more and more unpredictable I started investigating. He was head flicking, not a lot but a bit, and would over react wildly if a bug touched his face. His eyes were dull with eyelashes always pointing down, not out at 90 degrees (this is a bit tell for me as to when he is in pain), he had huge temporalis muscles (the ones the sit over the eyes and form the v on the forehead). The tiniest noise, like me sniffing, or a bird scarer going off a mile away would send him into fits, like he was hugely over sensitised. He would panic on the yard or in the field and to ride he was plain dangerous so i didnt try much as I knew something was wrong. I would say he looked like he had a massive migraine all the time, I am now a firm believer that horses get bad headaches, but its not something we ever consider when we think about behaviour, other than jumping straight to tumours. Once we hit late sept/October the explosive behaviour reduced, although he was still anxious, which is when I then scoped him. Over winter with treatment for ulcers he improved massively. Then in late feb/March the erratic behaviour and more head flicking returned and I started to think it must be linked the plants coming into flower. So after discussions with my Vet I started treating with antihistamines. He was so much happier that following summer and was no longer wild and unpredictable.

The following year I started the antihistamines in Feb, before symptoms started, and he was a complete delight last year, perfect to ride, doing everything bitless or bridleless, dressage and xc schooling, hacking on a loose rein, relaxed and happy and a real pleasure, the horse I always knew he could be. His temporalis muscles went from bulging to flat and his eyes softened and eyelashes pointed out not down. I think the headaches/hayfever and ulcers caused the most issues. Sacroiliac made him electric behind Saddle but rectified quickly, and the muscle issue is stress triggered so I just work with it in mind.


----------



## Michen (9 July 2018)

minesadouble said:



			Kind of agree with this, Ive known quite a few Connies and I tend to think of them as quite sharp but never known a lunatic and dont think age is an excuse for such dramatic behaviour.

Michen - I thought yours was a part bred - my mistake &#128561;
		
Click to expand...

Nope, he is a full registered connie out of the rather yummy (and sadly now late) sure Westside Mirah. Mine is not a good example of the breed in terms of looks!!


----------



## kimberleigh (10 July 2018)

Funny you say he is out of Westside Mirah - a friend of mine has over 100 connies with a lot being by WM. The good ones are great, he has a stallion by him who has a bloody impeccable temperament, runs with mares and foals and yet will still come up for a good cuddle even when they're all bang in season and his mind is on covering, he's an angel!

But there seems to be a huge trend in "quirky" progeny too! He has quite a few that it is lucky they are brood mares because its unlikely that anyone would even bother with trying to back them...one particular mare is stunning but god does she have a temper.

I think perhaps it may be the fact that there is so much outcrossed blood in that particular line, people treat them as natives when really they need treating like more blooded horses? Just a musing! What people/professionals "get away with" in backing/breaking a native, they may not if it was a TB for example. 

WM himself is 12.5% TB on dam side alone - also has TB on sire side. So depending on damline you could actually end up with progeny who are not really Connie after all!


----------



## Crackerz (10 July 2018)

He is 4, if you are sure it's not pain related then clearly something has gone wrong in his training when he was away from home. I'd turn him away, then next year have a trainer come to YOUR yard to start from scratch again.

We have a yard full of Connies, none of them are dangerous and only 1 i would class as sharp and he is from Ireland. 4 of the Connies on the yard are from the same family and are fantastic, including a stallion and 2yold colt. They are however, very clever, more so than any New Forest i have met


----------



## MotherOfChickens (10 July 2018)

BBP said:



			His temporalis muscles went from bulging to flat and his eyes softened and eyelashes pointed out not down. I think the headaches/hayfever and ulcers caused the most issues. Sacroiliac made him electric behind Saddle but rectified quickly, and the muscle issue is stress triggered so I just work with it in mind.
		
Click to expand...

I think this is very interesting, I remember the photos of his temporals muscles I think? glad you managed to get on top of it. I am very interested in grimace scales etc generally and we need to be applying them to all farm and companion animal species (sorry, going off topic OP).


----------



## bubsqueaks (10 July 2018)

Patterdale said:



			Thanks very much for all the replies. 

Brain tumour/some kind of neurological issue is what the trainer thinks. I asked the vet who pooh-poohed it saying it's an urban myth to explain bad behaviour and that he'd never seen one in 30 years of practice. So I dunno. 

Since he's come back I've been reminded of what a lovely pony he is to deal with. He was such an easy breaker, my kids were riding him round the yard after a few weeks, just very kind. He's always had a bit about him, never been a dope on a rope but he's always been kind. Which is why I struggle with what everyone here is telling me. 

My options are pretty limited; 
1. start working him again myself
2. send to another trainer
3. turn away
4. sell
5. investigate
6. PTS

1. I'm not allowed as he's been branded dangerous. I also don't want to for the same reasons. Not an option. 
2. I think it would be irresponsible to put someone else in danger, and would also stress him beyond belief. Not an option.
3. I don't have endless space and grass for useless horses but it could be done. But then what!?
4. I would actually consider this to the right home - if he wasn't what he is. But a well bred, nice colour 14.2 Connemara with amazing paces, a massive jump and a lovely nature is a dodgy dealers dream. If he was 16hh and I didn't think a child might get him, I might. But as it is - not an option. 
5. Expensive - and to what end? Even if he has terrible ulcers, should something with such extreme reactions be ridden?
6. Probably the most sensible and safest option on paper - but I just can't. He's a nice, kind healthy pony. Not an option. 

Personally, I think it's pain. I think he's screaming at us. I don't think he's just a wrong un. 

I think I'm going to get him scoped for ulcers and any other diagnostic things we can come up with. He's insured. He'll then have had a good chance?

Any thoughts very welcome!!
		
Click to expand...

Hi Patterdale, please please get him scoped for ulcers especially if he was transported over from Ireland - we have an 8 year old Connemara who had glandular ulcers (very different & difficult to treat from the more normal squamous ulcers) - they caused him to bronc my 16 year old daughter off & our instructor - after 4 rounds of treatment he has just been turned away to give us all some breathing/decision time - it was explained to me as like having acid splashed in your face & produces very explosive reactions on what are already quite highly strung Connemara ponies - good luck.


----------



## Farma (10 July 2018)

My sister has a connie, she bought her and she was a total dream, the easiest horse ever even as a 4 yr old, but with a few breaks here and there and having my sister who is very nervous ride her she has turned into a bit of a nut a few times, she went from a quiet plod to a sharp broncing rodeo bull a couple of times, put someone more experienced back on a few times and she goes back to her quiet self.
So as kind as she is she just doesn't cope well for long periods with a nervous/novice on her, to be fair mine is a wb and is exactly the same.


----------



## Michen (10 July 2018)

Not quite sure I understand the logic of breeding from mares you wouldnt ride due to behaviour! 

Mine is quirky no doubt, but its his quirkiness that also makes him talented and very engaging. 



kimberleigh said:



			Funny you say he is out of Westside Mirah - a friend of mine has over 100 connies with a lot being by WM. The good ones are great, he has a stallion by him who has a bloody impeccable temperament, runs with mares and foals and yet will still come up for a good cuddle even when they're all bang in season and his mind is on covering, he's an angel!

But there seems to be a huge trend in "quirky" progeny too! He has quite a few that it is lucky they are brood mares because its unlikely that anyone would even bother with trying to back them...one particular mare is stunning but god does she have a temper.

I think perhaps it may be the fact that there is so much outcrossed blood in that particular line, people treat them as natives when really they need treating like more blooded horses? Just a musing! What people/professionals "get away with" in backing/breaking a native, they may not if it was a TB for example. 

WM himself is 12.5% TB on dam side alone - also has TB on sire side. So depending on damline you could actually end up with progeny who are not really Connie after all!
		
Click to expand...


----------



## SEL (10 July 2018)

Michen said:



			Not quite sure I understand the logic of breeding from mares you wouldn&#8217;t ride due to behaviour!
		
Click to expand...

I thought that! Mainly because I deal with PSSM every day and we know now that leads to behaviour issues and is passed on through untested breeding. If this stallion is throwing some challenging offspring then there's every chance there's a genetic link to something nasty. Let's hope for OP its 'just' a case of mishandling at the training yard and can be overcome with patience and TLC.


----------



## Michen (10 July 2018)

SEL said:



			I thought that! Mainly because I deal with PSSM every day and we know now that leads to behaviour issues and is passed on through untested breeding. If this stallion is throwing some challenging offspring then there's every chance there's a genetic link to something nasty. Let's hope for OP its 'just' a case of mishandling at the training yard and can be overcome with patience and TLC.
		
Click to expand...

Ive onky ever heard good things about Westside Mirah personally... they are competition bred horses so unlikely to be dobbins hence why he was such a successful stallion. I dont think theres anything wrong with quirky and sharp when they do the job they were bred for very well. Not that this is anything to do with Op so off track!


----------



## Bellalily (10 July 2018)

We've had ours almost 18 1/2 years, bought as an almost 5 year old from a dealer who had backed him. They are the most intelligent and quick thinking equine I know and our wonderful Connie has taught us both so much.  He's been there and done it and the last 7 years has been a happy hacker and loved it.  If his behaviour is that bad, then he is trying to tell you something. I have never ridden anything that felt so safe and as tho I was being looked after so well. Yes, he has a buck in him, yes it comes out of nowhere, but I wouldn't change a hair on his body. Please, please contact a behaviourist or a really experienced Connie owner, or someone out there who can help you.
Having now read your post about scoping, please, please do. All Connies are quirky, but he is definitely trying to tell you something.


----------



## kimberleigh (10 July 2018)

I can only comment on ground behaviour, as none have ever had any form of backing and seeing as most are unhandled you cant be sure that it isnt purely from lack of handling that some are pretty wild!! 

But anyone who has bought connemaras from ireland is more than likely to have one from a mare that has done no more than stand in a field - therefore technically they could be absolutely anything behaviour wise under saddle.

It is the way things are done in ireland with Connemara breeding - rightly or wrongly!


----------



## Yuki1290 (10 July 2018)

SusieT said:



			They don't tolerate abuse. My guess is he has either been pushed beyong a point he didn't understand (he is only just 4) and flipped, or has a painful stimulus somewhere. 

I'd work very slowly and build up his confidence at teeny tiny steps - very few horses are 'bad' just misunderstood or overdone.
		
Click to expand...

This ^^^

I bought my Connie after he had been chucked out in the field for a couple of years and nobody was willing to touch him, after having been sent to a pro that just sent him back! I re-backed him VERY slowly to built his trust in me; we only hacked for a year (first 6 months only walk in company!) and slowly progressed from there. I guess that your boy, like mine, is a sensitive soul and that you might need to take things a bit slowly with him.

Also, please consider the horse that you have in front of you and have known, rather than simply listen to other "people/professionals" words. I heard a lot of horror stories about my Connie that made me wary of him and never matched up to the horse that I had/have! Sometimes horses build stronger bond with their owner than we give them credit for and, therefore, behave differently when with them/someone they trust.

Good luck and keep us posted!


----------



## Laika (10 July 2018)

I have a connie x appy and we have had quite a few problems but he's come on leaps and bounds. He was a nightmare throughout winter but now I can honestly say he's my pony of a lifetime. He's taught me an awful lot. 

From what I have read my thoughts are; 1. he's either in pain and is trying to tell you this 2. he needs to do some maturing and could do with some time turned away. I think I'd personally start ruling anything out with his health as a priority and then tackle his maturity if nothing shows up. I'm not sure I would put an animal down at this stage without doing any investigating - UNLESS that is what YOU want to do.


----------



## Patterdale (10 July 2018)

Thank you so, so much for the replies. Especially what you said Yuki about considering the horse in front of me. I've heard lots of bad things about him but it's very hard when he's only ever been lovely with me. 

He's definitely getting scoped, and hind legs x rayed if the vet/insurance will agree. I think he's definitely trying to tell us something. 

I'm also going to try lunging him this week just to see what happens.


----------



## Grey.mare (10 July 2018)

Patterdale said:



			So last year I bought a lovely 3 year old performance bred connie. 

Fast forward 10 months and, despite spending £100s on schooling and being no novice myself, he's been branded dangerous to the point I've been advised he be PTS. I can't work out why he is doing the behaviour. 

Since this has happened I've started coming across lots of people who've had or known of similar Connemaras. Before this I thought they were one of the nicest breeds, temperament wise. Now I'm wondering. 

Soooo.....anyone else?
		
Click to expand...

My Connie mare is mental at the best of times and is very sensitive went through a phase where if anyone else rode her on the flat she wouldnt canter 3 time for a month... Not easy animals like people like to make out! Maybe turn him away to mature and give him a break then spend lots of time on the ground work? Not normally one to suggest it but maybe try some other methods ie natural horsemanship trainer and see if they can help? If its random it could be confusion or just a lack of respect depending on the cause? Good luck! My connie is amazing and wouldnt swap her for the world  hopefull he will be worth all the hassle in the long run!


----------



## Yuki1290 (24 July 2018)

Any news Patterdale? Have you started working your boy again?


----------



## Hand that feeds (21 November 2020)

Patterdale said:



			Thank you so, so much for the replies. Especially what you said Yuki about considering the horse in front of me. I've heard lots of bad things about him but it's very hard when he's only ever been lovely with me.

He's definitely getting scoped, and hind legs x rayed if the vet/insurance will agree. I think he's definitely trying to tell us something.

I'm also going to try lunging him this week just to see what happens.
		
Click to expand...

Hi Patterdale.   Here we are 2 1/2 years on. Just wondering what happened to your pony ? . I am in the same boat with one. I’m starting with scoping and taking it from there .....


----------



## Goldenstar (21 November 2020)

Oh yes Connies can be tricky and quirky .
A friend had an epically amusing one ,well he was that if you where highly competent 
They dont make up so many of the FEI event ponies for no reason .


----------



## Littlewills (21 November 2020)

I'd test for PSSM2. Its fairly prevalent in connies sadly and can cause that sort of weird explosive behaviour.


----------

