# TURNERS ABBATOIR - RED LION



## Horselover39 (8 March 2013)

Hi 
I keep seeing this place on the news.
(1) Cruelty to horses inflicted
(2) Bute getting into the food chain
(3) Smuggling of horses from Ireland
All have taken place here.
A Facebook group has been created that wants this place Shut Down
Its called:
Stop Horse Slaughter Full Stop. Look Into Their Eyes Campaign.


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## noodle_ (9 March 2013)

sorry  - but here we go again.


we NEED horse slaughter....there are too many horses as it is.... but we NEED humane killing - thats the whole point


if you want a petition to work - campaign for better travelling and killing conditions.....



*backs away from the thread*


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## Clippy (9 March 2013)

noodle_ said:



			sorry  - but here we go again.


we NEED horse slaughter....there are too many horses as it is.... but we NEED humane killing - thats the whole point


if you want a petition to work - campaign for better travelling and killing conditions.....



*backs away from the thread*
		
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Well put. Less horses slaughtered = more strain on horse charities = more suffering


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## hackneylass2 (9 March 2013)

The point is   humane killing...not what I saw at Red Lion.  Im sure real horse lovers will agree.


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## Alec Swan (9 March 2013)

Horselover39 said:



			Hi 

.......

A Facebook group has been created that wants this place Shut Down
Its called:
Stop Horse Slaughter Full Stop. Look Into Their Eyes Campaign.
		
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So in the unlikely event that this campaign is successful,  and Turners are shut down,  have those who are promoting an end to the slaughter of horses given any thought to how we dispose of them?

All of these reactions are because of a very short piece of film.  There is NO justification for some of what we saw in that film,  but there are two points to consider,  firstly,  the opinions of the vet who commented on a horse being still conscious whilst being bled,  have been discredited by others from his profession,  and secondly,  the fact that a two or three minute piece was made from 8 WEEKS of filming,  should demonstrate that though far from ideal,  the very large part of the slaughter procedures at Turners,  were actually correct.  Were there more evidence,  then it would have been on display,  I'd have thought.

As others have said,  we need more Horse Slaughter facilities,  which are correctly run and managed,  not less.  Those who would join up with these well intentioned but pointless campaigns would do better to lobby their preferred animal charity and demand that a humane end to our equines is encouraged,  by supporting a reinstatement of a LEGITIMATE trade in horse meat,  when the whole business can be correctly regulated and monitored.

Alec.


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## char3479 (9 March 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			So in the unlikely event that this campaign is successful,  and Turners are shut down,  have those who are promoting an end to the slaughter of horses given any thought to how we dispose of them?

All of these reactions are because of a very short piece of film.  There is NO justification for some of what we saw in that film,  but there are two points to consider,  firstly,  the opinions of the vet who commented on a horse being still conscious whilst being bled,  have been discredited by others from his profession,  and secondly,  the fact that a two or three minute piece was made from 8 WEEKS of filming,  should demonstrate that though far from ideal,  the very large part of the slaughter procedures at Turners,  were actually correct.  Were there more evidence,  then it would have been on display,  I'd have thought.

As others have said,  we need more Horse Slaughter facilities,  which are correctly run and managed,  not less.  Those who would join up with these well intentioned but pointless campaigns would do better to lobby their preferred animal charity and demand that a humane end to our equines is encouraged,  by supporting a reinstatement of a LEGITIMATE trade in horse meat,  when the whole business can be correctly regulated and monitored.

Alec.
		
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Absolutely.  People aren't thinking straight. Closing Turners would just relocate the slaughter to a less public abbatoir, or one overseas.  If people don't like horses being slaughtered, they should begin at the beginning and lobby for tighter regulations on breeding.  I write this as the first foals from the local cob breeding 'enterprises' are beginning to make an appearance. I can't help but think their future lies on a plate.


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## luckyoldme (9 March 2013)

For all of those with horses its horrible to think of them ending up in the slaughter house...but it is a necessity.
Anyone who thinks it should be banned in the uk needs to think seriuosly about what the alternatives are. There isn t an alternative.


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## MrPotts (9 March 2013)

Well said Alec


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## lachlanandmarcus (9 March 2013)

Well said Alec x 2


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## ponydi (9 March 2013)

Well said Alec x 3!


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## misterjinglejay (9 March 2013)

Echo this - well said Alec!


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## Maesfen (9 March 2013)

Spot on Alec.


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## Shazbat (9 March 2013)

Alec - as usual hits the nail on the head!
When are people going to realise that if we lose even more horse abbatoirs it will increase the pain and suffering of a lot more horses than we are seeing now.


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## Norfolk Pie (9 March 2013)

Well said Alec X 4


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## Freddie19 (9 March 2013)

Spot on comments, slaughter houses being closed, means more equines starving to death, better I do not think so.  As long as they are treated like cattle, sheep and pigs, let the slaughter houses continue.  If they want to do something about the slaughter regime, start a facebook page about the officials who are supposed to be watching and checking, and are instead sitting drinking cups of tea/coffee and reading papers. Make them do their job properly.


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## Horselover39 (9 March 2013)

Hi Alec
I Agree.... there does need to be horse slaughter in this country. 
It's a well known Fact... That the footage Hillside have is indeed far worse than broadcast!!!!!!!!
It was too disturbing to be shown on national tv!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Also Red Lion has had carcasses ready to go in the food chain which were contaminated with bute FSA findings 7/3
AND
This week the NI tv programme highlighted Red Lion "The Insider, Spectator" highlighted yet more very very serious concerns about RL.


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## Rollin (9 March 2013)

Horselover39 said:



			Hi 
I keep seeing this place on the news.
(1) Cruelty to horses inflicted
(2) Bute getting into the food chain
(3) Smuggling of horses from Ireland
All have taken place here.
A Facebook group has been created that wants this place Shut Down
Its called:
Stop Horse Slaughter Full Stop. Look Into Their Eyes Campaign.
		
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We need better policing and standards.  In the USA campaigners succeeded in closing all US slaughter houses for horses.  Instead horses were sent to the hell hole of Mexican slaughter houses.  Film footage from the American Humane Society is stomach churning.

America has now re-opened its slaughter facilities.  Do you want British horses to be slaughtered in Italy?


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## MiJodsR2BlinkinTite (9 March 2013)

Awful subject this........ but needs airing. Another one who agrees with Alec. 

BUT - methinks there is a lot more than needs to tackled as-well-as, i.e. indiscriminate breeding  - like for example people who think oh lets put the mare in foal, even though either dam or sire may have comformation and/or temperamental defects, just to make a buck. Result = yet another scrub foal which is virtually worthless, and certainly won't sell well. This is going on all the time which results in more & more poor, worthless little foals being produced which will only go to slaughter - here in the UK if they're lucky (and I use the word cautiously), or even worse, bought up for sixpence at auction and then ferried abroad somewhere on some awful one-way journey. We know it happens unfortunately. 

Of course, this overbreeding issue happens in the dog world too; way too much over-breeding by unscrupulous individuals seeking to line their own pockets. Plus stupid people who won't sterilise their dogs, for whatever reason.

Sorry don't have any solutions: can't see licensing doing much good coz the people doing it would just give Two Fingers to the system. Wasn't passporting supposed to be The Be All and End All??? 

But we all know there are far too many horses out there; yet you can never get what you want when you want it. Daft innit. 

Personally I don't have a problem with sending horses to slaughter; whilst it would not be my personal choice coz I'm way too sentimental - I can see the necessity for commercial institutions like racing yards, riding stables etc., which need to make a profit in order to survive, and agree with Alec that there will always, regrettably if you will, be a demand for licensed horse slaughter facilities here in the UK.


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## Horselover39 (9 March 2013)

No. They need to be slaughtered here AND it needs to be done properly!!!!!!!!
I agree.... The overbreeding situation is disgraceful!!!!!! 
And needs addressing..... There's too many horses and they're being farmed off..................
Also within this equation comes the slaughtering of mares in foal. Appar. its illegal to slaughter a cow in calf, sheep in lamb, but not a horse. Not good is it!!!


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## FairyLights (9 March 2013)

ponydi said:



			Well said Alec x 3!
		
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^^^^^^^^^^ x 4


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## Spook (9 March 2013)

Perhaps it would be more constructive to lobby the WHW etc. and suggest that they openly support the horse lines that are available and lobby for another one or two..... A welfare officer could be funded by the charity to supervise these horse lines to ensure good/best practice is followed.... although as I understand it a vet has to be at a slaughterhouse anyway.


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## MerrySherryRider (9 March 2013)

No objection to slaughter houses, but The Red Lion has given cause for grave concern for years locally. 

 Should Turners continue to operate if it is found that they have consistently fallen below the standards required for the humane housing and care of horses, both prior to slaughter and during the slaughter process ?

Or is it ok to turn a blind eye and accept bad and at times, cruel practice ?


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## Mince Pie (9 March 2013)

Girlie1998 said:



			Oh my god, I can't believe the amount of heartless supposedly horse lovers who are happy for horses to be slaughtered in such a cruel way! Shut that place down it's cruel.. Horses should not be slaughtered full stop!!
		
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Ok, we'll just leave them in mudpits (sorry *fields*) and let them starve to death instead, or put them on overcrowded trucks bound for the continent with no hay/water/rest stops...


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## putasocinit (9 March 2013)

Girlie1998 - sorry to burst your bubble, but the only ones heartless will be those that want slaughter houses closed down, so why dont you reeducate your group of followers to do the right thing and campaign for more humane destruction, rather than horses starving to death in fields because their owners can no longer afford them due to the current recession etc etc. thanks for reading.


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## putasocinit (9 March 2013)

I have watched many many videos, and it is sad, very sad, but because an owner can no longer afford their horse who says the next person can, because they are not lining up offering to take over your horse for you, and whilst i and many many others donate to charities those charities are overflowing and cannot take another animal, let alone one that is still in good health but their owner can no longer afford it.

We are horse lovers and we care very much about what happens to our beloved animals, so we would rather they be put down humanely, than left in a field to starve to death or travel on trucks to be slaughtered out of the UK.  Even old retired horses still need to be looked after, they dont just disappear.

You are so full of this valuable emotion, please help us all and put that energy you have to good use and help campaign for humane destruction, and the end to overbreeding.


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## Alec Swan (9 March 2013)

horserider said:



			.......

 Should Turners continue to operate if it is found that they have consistently fallen below the standards required for the humane housing and care of horses, both prior to slaughter and during the slaughter process ?

.......
		
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Produce the evidence,  and then present it to the FSA.  Whinging on here about such matters will achieve nothing.  Take your complaints,  WITH the evidence to the Authorities.  That's how you and I will improve the system. 

Alec.


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## Mince Pie (9 March 2013)

Girlie1998 said:



			And that's why I pay money to various charities. So what your saying is if a human can't look after their horses then they deserve to be killed inhumanly and mistreated before hand rather than rehomed? Have you watched the video, hmmm thought not. How about putting money into charities or rehoming where ever possible? And when you say send the horses off to Europe did you not see the horses being slaughtered are being smuggled over from Ireland, yip so I'm sure they came over in a lovely box with hay and water.... NOT
		
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The same charities that are full to bursting with a huge waiting list? The same charities that are now advising some owners to PTS if they can't afford their horses any more - which is easier said than done if the owner has fallen on seriously hard times and can't find the £200+ to PTS... Sometimes the only way out for an owner is Potters/Turners etc and if they are shut down then many more horses will be neglected, starved, in pain etc.


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## luckyoldme (9 March 2013)

Girlie1998 said:



			And that's why I pay money to various charities. So what your saying is if a human can't look after their horses then they deserve to be killed inhumanly and mistreated before hand rather than rehomed? Have you watched the video, hmmm thought not. How about putting money into charities or rehoming where ever possible? And when you say send the horses off to Europe did you not see the horses being slaughtered are being smuggled over from Ireland, yip so I'm sure they came over in a lovely box with hay and water.... NOT
		
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ive watched the video and did nt like it. I don t suppose i would like to see a similar video with cows, sheep or pigs treat in the same way.
Most of the posters on here don t rejoice in animals being slaughtered.
my horse will stay with me until the day he dies because i don t want him to end his life in the slaughterhouse.
Having said that Girlie and not being nasty but what is your alternative ? The way i see it is a campaign to ban horse slaughter is pretty pointless unless you can come up with a viable alternative.....so what is the campaigns plan supposing horse slaughter was banned?


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## Dab (9 March 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			Produce the evidence,  and then present it to the FSA.  Whinging on here about such matters will achieve nothing.  Take your complaints,  WITH the evidence to the Authorities.  That's how you and I will improve the system. 

Alec.
		
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I understand that is what is happening. 

So OP if you choose to highlight on this site the continued failures at Red Lion then go right ahead....

More horse abbatoirs are needed not less, but Turner needs his licience taken away and replaced with a better run facility.


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## Merrymoles (9 March 2013)

Sorry girlie but I agree with Alec too. I love my horse as I am sure you do but there are thousands of unloved horses out there and I would rather they had a quick end than months of suffering. Slaughterhouses need better regulation and more monitoring but they serve a purpose. Those of us who can may well chose a different method of despatch but for some horses that will never happen.


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## FionaM12 (9 March 2013)

Girlie1998 said:



			Oh my god, I can't believe the amount of heartless supposedly horse lovers who are happy for horses to be slaughtered in such a cruel way! Shut that place down it's cruel.. *Horses should not be slaughtered full stop!*!
		
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Who says? We slaughter cows, sheep, pigs... why do you think horses are different?

Or are you saying all meat products and leather should be illegal?

Of course I believe it should be done humanely, but take issue with your statement that "horses should not be slaughtered full stop".


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## FionaM12 (9 March 2013)

Girlie1998 said:



			Yes thanks I am fully aware old retired horses don't disappear which is why I didn't sell my mare or send her to slaughter, she was with me until she took her last breath which is the way she should have been treated after many years of being my best friend. But unfortunately some people don't look at horses in that way. *At the end of the day horses are going to be slaughtered* however should they be mistreated at the markets and to then go on to be killed inhumanely. It's certainly not how I think they should end their lives. And to be honest most of these horses aren't coming from people who can't afford to keep them. They are breed purely for slaughter! I will continue to give as much as I can to charities and encourage people to rehome wherever possible.
		
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So now you _do_ think humane slaughter's okay? 

I'm guessing you're very young (by the year in your name ) which is why your arguments, although well-meaning, are not very well formed. 

People here are indeed horse lovers, and very opposed to their ill treatment. However it isn't simple, it's far more complex than "banning horse slaughter" (which would only cause greater suffering, sadly).


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## FionaM12 (9 March 2013)

Girlie1998 said:



			With an attitude like yours next we will be eating our pet dogs!
		
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Oh dear. What "attitude" is that?

I have supported animal charities and been doing what I can to reduce animal suffering (horses included) for well over four decades. I have personally rescued and nursed back to health creatures of many species, raised orphans and worked for various charities to help with re-homing.

But according to you, because I believe banning horse slaughter is neither possible nor (however sad) desirable in the current climate, I am the devil.


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## MerrySherryRider (9 March 2013)

*WHW is not as happy with the current system as some posters here seem to be. This is a report on their findings and some proposals for humane horse slaughter*

Outrage at Illegal Welfare Abuses at British Slaughterhouse

24/01/2013

"Disgusting, appalling and totally illegal" is how Roly Owers, chief executive of World Horse Welfare, describes the treatment of horses at one of Britain's main equine slaughterhouses as was revealed in footage obtained by a Sky News investigation aired today. 

Outrage at abuse in slaughterhouse 



     Call for operations to cease at plant until new procedures put in place with FSA guarantee of compliance with law
    Call for CCTV in all slaughterhouses that take horses to help FSA enforce law
    Inhumane slaughter has no place in Britain'

Owers said: "What we have seen is a complete, systemic failure of the slaughterhouse to comply with UK welfare laws, and of the Food Standards Agency which should have been enforcing the law - but clearly has not.

"We are now calling for all operations at these premises to be suspended until new procedures are put in place and the FSA guarantees the plant will comply with the law.   We are also calling for Defra to install and monitor CCTV in all English slaughterhouses to aid enforcement.

"The public and horse owners need to have confidence that slaughter is carried out humanely in Britain. While it may be a sad fact, there is a role for humane slaughter of horses to help prevent them from suffering long and painful deaths due to illness or neglect."

The revelations come as Defra is finalising the arrangements to introduce new EU regulations to protect the welfare of animals at slaughter which will come into effect this summer.

The footage revealed a multitude of illegal practices resulting in unnecessary suffering for the dozens of horses shown in the film. "We saw horses being treated appallingly every step of the way - from a poor level of care before slaughter, to slaughter in groups of two or three which is illegal and extremely distressing to such social and intelligent animals, to botched or incomplete stunning that appeared to allow some horses to regain consciousness before they were killed.

"These practices are disgusting, appalling and totally illegal and they must be stopped immediately," said Owers.  "Any chief government veterinarian would agree. There must be a full investigation, and operations at this plant must cease until new procedures are put in place and the FSA guarantees full compliance with the law."

Just some of the many breaches of the Welfare of Animals (Slaughter or Killing) Regulations of 1995 evident in the footage included:
     Shooting in groups of two or three - the law requires that animals are pithed or bled without delay after stunning.
     This requirement cannot be met when animals are stunned in groups.  Bleeding horses one at a time after being stunned in a group causes totally unnecessary delay for some of the animals in the group. Some horses in the footage appear to be regaining consciousness before being bled. In some cases the footage showed that the first horse to be stunned was the last to be bled, increasing the likelihood that the horse would regain consciousness before they were killed.
     Horses were permitted to be within sight of another horse being stunned or killed - this is specifically prohibited by the regulations as witnessing such an event can cause significant distress to horses- as is evident in the footage. Even when shot singly, horses should not be shot in the sight of other horses, but in the footage another horse or horses are often present and can even see inside the stun box'.
     Animals were not pithed or bled without delay after stunning; in some cases the delay was considerable - the Regulation clearly states that horses should be pithed* or bled without delay to prevent them gaining consciousness.

    In all of the footage viewed, World Horse Welfare did not see any animals being pithed and therefore they should have been bled without delay - but in many instances this did not happen. In many cases the delays in bleeding the animal were lengthy and completely unacceptable.
Animals were not restrained in an appropriate manner prior to stunning/killing so as to spare them any avoidable pain, suffering or agitation - World Horse Welfare saw many botched stuns in the footage.  It appears that three different types of equipment were being used to stun or shoot the animals and in a number of cases the stun was not effective and had to be repeated. In addition the slaughter men had difficulty in raising the head of the animals in order to apply the guns.
 Animals were not moved with care; blows were inflicted on some animals with staves or ropes - this abuse of horses is clearly not allowed under law. Nor is it necessary.

As an exception to this catalogue of breaches, World Horse Welfare did witness at least one slaughter man who demonstrated competence in both handling and killing.

World Horse Welfare believes that the footage showed evidence of catastrophic breaches of the law and that a full investigation is required. The charity strongly believes that operations at the plant should be immediately suspended until new procedures are put in place and the FSA guarantees the plant will comply with the law.  The charity is calling for the introduction and monitoring of CCTV at all slaughterhouses licensed to take horses in order to assist the FSA in their duty of enforcement.

"I cannot see the public trusting this establishment again until we have CCTV monitoring in place. The FSA has staff on the premises who should have been enforcing the laws that protect these horses, but their efforts have been found seriously wanting," said Owers.

However, World Horse Welfare urges the public and horse owners not to panic.  "There is no evidence to suggest that other slaughterhouses in the UK are abusing the law in this way.  We believe there is a role for humane slaughter.  We have identified 6,000 horses at risk in the country and humane slaughter may eventually be the kindest option for them to save them from a lifetime of neglect and suffering.  Homes for horses are in short supply," said Owers.

"We do not want to see horses exported overseas to slaughter where welfare standards may be even lower - that would be an even worse tragedy." The charity has significant evidence of the suffering experienced by horses transported long distances across Europe to slaughter and is campaigning for a short, maximum journey limit in line with scientific evidence that shows that horses suffer on longer journeys.

Defra had indicated in its recent consultation on the slaughter regulations that they were not minded to require compulsory CCTV in slaughterhouses at this time but the issue would be kept under review.

"We said in our response to the Defra consultation that we are not convinced that the case against compulsory CCTV has been made and it should be revisited as soon as more evidence on the value of CCTV became available. We now have that evidence," said Owers. "If the FSA cannot fulfil its duty to enforce the law solely through its staff on the ground, CCTV would not only support them to fulfil their duties but would also provide vital reassurance to the public that horses are being handled and slaughtered humanely."

World Horse Welfare is putting forward the following arguments in favour of CCTV in a formal response to Defra, and has prepared a petition that concerned members of the public can sign:

Sign here: http://bit.ly/WaFEjf

CCTV cameras:
     Can be installed into spaces where an inspector cannot safely be present - such as in the stun box'
     Will always be present, unlike inspectors
     Cannot be intimidated, unlike an inspector
     Produce a permanent record, allowing both good and bad practice to be identified and used in training for slaughterhouse employees.
     Will help counter any malicious accusations against the proprietors or employees of licenced premises and permit proprietors to demonstrate that they treat horses humanely
    Can be viewed securely from any location, offering more flexibility for the FSA and could even save money if they replace some on-site monitors
     Will help improve public confidence that animals will be slaughtered humanely
     Will allow the British public to feel confident that British meat, which has a reputation as a high welfare product, is the result of humane slaughter procedures
     Suitable CCTV systems can be purchased for less than £500, so the costs to business are not unreasonable


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## FionaM12 (9 March 2013)

And before anyone points out, okay guys I know I shouldn't feed the troll. 

I'm just slow on the uptake sometimes.


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## EstherYoung (9 March 2013)

Should horses (or any other animal for that matter) be abused in slaughter houses? Absolutely not.

Should slaughter houses be banned? Absolutely not.

Should there be more slaughterhouses with better standards being enforced therein? Absolutely.

It's not somewhere I'd send one of mine, but there is definitely a need. It costs a lot to have a horse put down at home, and it is a scary place out there these days for horses who don't have someone to watch their back.


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## FionaM12 (9 March 2013)

EstherYoung said:



			Should horses (or any other animal for that matter) be abused in slaughter houses? Absolutely not.

Should slaughter houses be banned? Absolutely not.

Should there be more slaughterhouses with better standards being enforced therein? Absolutely.

It's not somewhere I'd send one of mine, but there is definitely a need. It costs a lot to have a horse put down at home, and it is a scary place out there these days for horses who don't have someone to watch their back.
		
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Good post, entirely agree. 

I think the whole of the meat production industry should be examined and all animals should be handled humanely and kindly. Just because I personally love horses doesn't make them a special case.


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## MerrySherryRider (9 March 2013)

EstherYoung said:



			Should horses (or any other animal for that matter) be abused in slaughter houses? Absolutely not.

Should slaughter houses be banned? Absolutely not.

Should there be more slaughterhouses with better standards being enforced therein? Absolutely.

It's not somewhere I'd send one of mine, but there is definitely a need. It costs a lot to have a horse put down at home, and it is a scary place out there these days for horses who don't have someone to watch their back.
		
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Ah, you're so concise. well put.


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## Dab (9 March 2013)

Good post Horserider, and thanks for sharing. I have already signed the WHW petition. They do some very fine work and they have my highest support.

But the high level of complacency amoungst horse owners surrounding this subject still surprises me


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## Fintan (9 March 2013)

The problem does not start with Turner, it does start miles earlier.

It does start with those people that just increase the population of horses (I don`t want to call it breeding) and here specially with people bar of knowledge about how to keep and produce horses.
So this whole game is is sick from the very start.

As well this problem is caused by the politics. Closing down all local abbatoirs does not only kill the local butcher and craftsman business it does lead to animals that have to travel for days and weeks till they get killed.

No matter if cattle, pigs, horses or what ever. Stressed animals will give stressed meat and stressed meat is never as good as the the local and with this much more human killed product.

The here named company, well I am living near a place where the did turn up a couple of times every week and did load lory loads full of horses. Hundreds.

These horses did come from all over the island and most of them even with no passports. Some in a condition that even the journey to this collecting point was cruelty. Apart from the following transport to UK and other countrys.    

Turner is only a factory and we don`t need to expect that factorys are very human. Time and mass production is cash.

There is no need to close Turner down, there is a need to open many local abbatoirs with proper butchers so that no animal has to travel and specially not under factory circumstances. 

We need them.

But we don`t need a sanctimonious law for so called better controll in center spots, we need them badly local.

OK this won`t help big companys for the global market but it will help the envioronment, the animals and the local business.


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## Parachute (9 March 2013)

Haven't read the whole post so please correct me if I am wrong.
Horse slaughterhouses *NEED* to be working because realistically - and yes people may disagree - there are far too many horses around as it is. If there weren't any slaughterhouses many more horses would be dumped, abused or shot themselves. Now i'm in no way saying that horses should be mistreated or killed inhumanely at all - that's wrong - but when done right, I personally don't see a problem with it. 
I think there are are far too many people trying to shut down abbatoirs because they think horse slaughtering is cruel and wrong. I'd love to take some people who think that to an animal shelter, full up to the brink with unwanted, mistreated horses that didn't get slaughtered and were left for dead.

I think a lot of people are given the wrong impression on how horses are slaughtered and this may make them make judgement on horse welfare in slaughterhouses. Sometimes, I really wish that people would do more research into what they're trying so hard to stop. Because, I don't think many of them actually think about what would happen if there weren't any horse slaughterhouses.


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## Dab (9 March 2013)

Parachute said:



			I think there are are far too many people trying to shut down abbatoirs because they think horse slaughtering is cruel and wrong. I'd love to take some people who think that to an animal shelter, full up to the brink with unwanted, mistreated horses that didn't get slaughtered and were left for dead.
		
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Actually i think there is a very small misguided minority who are calling for all horse slaughter houses to be closed. This misguided bunch of individuals are distracting attenation away from the group (including WHW) who are just calling for Turner's to be thoroughly investigated and shut whilst that happens because the practices at these premises where utterly unacceptable and laws have been broken.


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## Parachute (9 March 2013)

Dab said:



			Actually i think there is a very small misguided minority who are calling for all horse slaughter houses to be closed. This misguided bunch of individuals are distracting attenation away from the group (including WHW) who are just calling for Turner's to be thoroughly investigated and shut whilst that happens because the practices at these premises where utterly unacceptable and laws have been broken.
		
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Oh, I'm sorry. I keep seeing multiple groups trying to shut down horse slaughterhouses in the UK. As far as I was aware, there were only 2 in the uk - Potters and Red Lion - however now I know there are more. In that case, I agree that this small minority of people are going in completely the wrong direction about this. I haven't seen anything wrong with any videos i've seen of Potters, Red Lion looked a tad inhumane but I cannot comment fully on this as I don't know everything about it.

What has being shown/said about Potters?


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## FionaM12 (9 March 2013)

Girlie1998 said:



			4 decades?? Wow your an old devil at that 

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Do be quiet please dear, the grown ups are talking.


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## MerrySherryRider (9 March 2013)

Parachute said:



			Oh, I'm sorry. I keep seeing multiple groups trying to shut down horse slaughterhouses in the UK. As far as I was aware, there were only 2 in the uk - Potters and Red Lion - however now I know there are more. In that case, I agree that this small minority of people are going in completely the wrong direction about this. I haven't seen anything wrong with any videos i've seen of Potters, Red Lion looked a tad inhumane but I cannot comment fully on this as I don't know everything about it.

What has being shown/said about Potters? 

Click to expand...

I think this is more than a 'tad inhumane'.
http://www.horseandcountry.tv/news/2013/01/19/british-abattoir-accused-abusing-horses


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## Parachute (9 March 2013)

FionaM12 said:



			Do be quiet please dear, the grown ups are talking. 

Click to expand...

*Sits back to watch the unfolding argument*


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## Parachute (9 March 2013)

horserider said:



			I think this is more than a 'tad inhumane'.
http://www.horseandcountry.tv/news/2013/01/19/british-abattoir-accused-abusing-horses

Click to expand...

Watched the first 1.04 but found it too distressing. Okay, I see what you mean!


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## Dab (9 March 2013)

Parachute said:



			Oh, I'm sorry. I keep seeing multiple groups trying to shut down horse slaughterhouses in the UK. As far as I was aware, there were only 2 in the uk - Potters and Red Lion - however now I know there are more. In that case, I agree that this small minority of people are going in completely the wrong direction about this. I haven't seen anything wrong with any videos i've seen of Potters, Red Lion looked a tad inhumane but I cannot comment fully on this as I don't know everything about it.

What has being shown/said about Potters? 

Click to expand...

read post #40 above by Horserider with the statement from Roly Owers CEO of WHW...footage from Turners is more than a 'tad' inhumane. Laws appear to have been broken.


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## FionaM12 (9 March 2013)

Parachute said:



			*Sits back to watch the unfolding argument*


Click to expand...

No, Parachute, I'm out of it now.  I suspect her age _is_ in her name despite her protests, and it's really rather silly of me to be be drawn into arguing with a child.  It started out well, I just tried to point out that her wish to ban all horse slaughter was misguided. 

Anyway, I'm off now to put the dog in the oven.


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## Parachute (9 March 2013)

Dab said:



			read post #40 above by Horserider with the statement from Roly Owers CEO of WHW...footage from Turners is more than a 'tad' inhumane. Laws appear to have been broken.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, I've just read the whole post and seen a bit of the video. I understand now, and the video was disgusting. I don't think i'll ever get those images out of my head sadly


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## Parachute (9 March 2013)

FionaM12 said:



			No, Parachute, I'm out of it now.  I suspect her age _is_ in her name despite her protests, and it's really rather silly of me to be be drawn into arguing with a child.  It started out well, I just tried to point out that her wish to ban all horse slaughter was misguided. 

Anyway, I'm off now to put the dog in the oven. 

Click to expand...

*leans forward and puts popcorn down - raises one eyebrow*
So you're telling me, I *FINALLY* find a famous HHO argument and just when i'm getting all comfy and settled you're going to stop it. Damn girl - You're not living up to HHO expectations


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## FionaM12 (9 March 2013)

Parachute said:



			*leans forward and puts popcorn down - raises one eyebrow*
So you're telling me, I *FINALLY* find a famous HHO argument and just when i'm getting all comfy and settled you're going to stop it. Damn girl - You're not living up to HHO expectations  

Click to expand...

As pointed out already, I'm no girl but an an old devil.


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## Parachute (9 March 2013)

FionaM12 said:



			As pointed out already, I'm no girl but an an old devil. 

Click to expand...

You've spoilt my afternoon fun you 'Old devil'


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## FionaM12 (9 March 2013)

Girlie1998 said:



			If age merited wisdom you would not be so condescending old dear.

Hope you remembered to season your dog before putting it in the oven
		
Click to expand...

I apologize. It was condescending of me.  I should not have let myself be irritated by personal insults.


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## FionaM12 (9 March 2013)

Girlie1998 said:



			Likewise. Apology accepted. Hope you enjoy your dinner

Click to expand...


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## Camel (9 March 2013)

Girlie1998 said:



			Oh my god, I can't believe the amount of heartless supposedly horse lovers who are happy for horses to be slaughtered in such a cruel way! Shut that place down it's cruel.. Horses should not be slaughtered full stop!!
		
Click to expand...

I agree, I think the goverment, the RSPCA and the WHW should fund research into an Elixer that will ensure all equines live forever and ever


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## MerrySherryRider (9 March 2013)

Christmas Camel said:



			I agree, I think the goverment, the RSPCA and the WHW should fund research into an Elixer that will ensure all equines live forever and ever 

Click to expand...

Well, perhaps the Racehorse Industry should do the funding instead seeing as they are the one's breeding for the slaughter house.


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## Amymay (9 March 2013)

Girlie 1998. Have you ever seen a horse shot? Quick and efficient.


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## lula (9 March 2013)

horserider said:



			No objection to slaughter houses, but The Red Lion has given cause for grave concern for years locally. 

 Should Turners continue to operate if it is found that they have consistently fallen below the standards required for the humane housing and care of horses, both prior to slaughter and during the slaughter process ?

Or is it ok to turn a blind eye and accept bad and at times, cruel practice ?
		
Click to expand...

this is the crux of it for me.

yes we need slaughter houses in the uk, yes we need the RedLion, HOWEVER, there's been enough bad practise at Turners in charge of the RedLion for too many years. If the Hillside footage had never ben made would we still be unaware of the appalling standards of welfare that existed in there cos Turner himself seemed oblivious or he knew damn well his slaughter men's adherence to welfare law was sloppy and didnt give a sh**.

Turner needs to lose his license now and the Redlion operated under different management where CCTV operates 24/7 and regular monitoring to ensure standards are complied with.

This is he only way forward in my eyes.


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## JanetGeorge (9 March 2013)

Girlie1998 said:



			And that's why I pay money to various charities. So what your saying is if a human can't look after their horses then they deserve to be killed inhumanly and mistreated before hand rather than rehomed? Have you watched the video, hmmm thought not. How about putting money into charities or rehoming where ever possible? And when you say send the horses off to Europe did you not see the horses being slaughtered are being smuggled over from Ireland, yip so I'm sure they came over in a lovely box with hay and water.... NOT
		
Click to expand...

If Paul McvCartney, Brian May and all the rest of the 'celebrity' animal lovers gave ALL their money to equine charities there still wouldn't be enough to cope with all the horses who are old, unsound, unsuitable for riding, or just unwanted!

I'm involved with one of the charities - and have done my share of helping wth rehoming - but what CAN be done is the tip of the iceberg!  Had to laugh at the 'smuggled from Ireland' story - thanks to the current state of the Tripartite agreement there is no need to 'smuggle' them - horses move freely betweent Ireland, France and the UK with NO controls or health checks (so nobody would notice dodgy passports because no-one looks at them!!)

Unwanted horses would - ideally - be humanely PTS at home:  that costs a MINIMUM of £300!  If people have fallen on hard times and can't afford to feed their horse, they probably can't afford that £300!  But taking the horse to the nearest licensed slaughter house means they get PAID - say - £200-300 (which could help with buying the kids' new shoes and school clothes!)  And the horse's neglect, and possible serious suffering on a lorry to Europe, is ended!


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## Amymay (9 March 2013)

Completely agree Lula.


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## FionaM12 (9 March 2013)

amymay said:



			Girlie 1998. Have you ever seen a horse shot? Quick and efficient.
		
Click to expand...

What happened to Girlie? Has she vanished?


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## Dab (9 March 2013)

amymay said:



			Completely agree Lula.
		
Click to expand...

^^^ditto

and them that want to turn a blind eye to the abuse at Red Lion on the pretext of a UK 'equine over population' are surely as bad as them that want all the slaughter houses shut down....there is no excuse for what happened at the Red Lion and CCTV needs to be installed....


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## lula (9 March 2013)

JanetGeorge said:



			Unwanted horses would - ideally - be humanely PTS at home:  that costs a MINIMUM of £300!  If people have fallen on hard times and can't afford to feed their horse, they probably can't afford that £300!  But taking the horse to the nearest licensed slaughter house means they get PAID - say - £200-300 (which could help with buying the kids' new shoes and school clothes!)
		
Click to expand...

um, not convinced on this argument sorry janet. 
I entirely agree that slaughterhouses are needed for the animals no one wants, indiscriminate breeding and those ending up with bin end dealers that dont give a toss but IMO, if you have a horse that has been a good servant to many years as a private owner and you want to do right by it, you find the money to PTS at home. 

Private owners have a DUTY to that animal to PTS at home wherever possible. Quite fancying the slaughter money to put towards a pair of shoes shouldn't even come into it. 

If you're that hard up god knows what would happen if a vet bill came in although i realise there are people who keep horses on this hard a budget.

feck it, there's just too many horses and too little money around at the end of the day. All very sad.


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## Shettie (9 March 2013)

FionaM12 said:



			What happened to Girlie? Has she vanished?
		
Click to expand...

She got scared by the old lady 


Horse slaughter shouldn't be banned, we are already going through a crisis with neglected horses, abandoned horses, waiting lists for rescues. If this stops we only add to the situation of horses suffering unnecessarily. 
If people want slaughter to stop full stop then there are so many other issues to stop first, bin end breeders etc being one, churn them out every year disregard for what there doing, just wanting a quick buck. 

What should be stopped is the unnecessary abuse these animals have been suffering before being slaughtered as shown in the footage. 

I do not agree with the LITE campaign either, not only do they want to shut turners down, they also want everyone to donate money to them to rescue horses from sales. Pleading and making people feel guilty if they do not donate right that second the horse will be murdered because of them. 
Most of these horses are being bid on by private people not turners or workers for him. Telling people to rescue without the knowledge, facilities, money or care actually needed. It seems more about giving them money on the spot then changing anything to do with slaughter.


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## FionaM12 (9 March 2013)

Shettie said:



			She got scared by the old lady 

Click to expand...

Hey!  Less of the lady!


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## Shettie (9 March 2013)

FionaM12 said:



			Hey!  Less of the lady!
		
Click to expand...


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## lula (9 March 2013)

Shettie said:



			I do not agree with the LITE campaign either, not only do they want to shut turners down, they also want everyone to donate money to them to rescue horses from sales. Pleading and making people feel guilty if they do not donate right that second the horse will be murdered because of them. 
Most of these horses are being bid on by private people not turners or workers for him. Telling people to rescue without the knowledge, facilities, money or care actually needed. It seems more about giving them money on the spot then changing anything to do with slaughter.
		
Click to expand...

you try telling them that!

its utter lunacy. The lady 'running' the group has her own issues which has resulted in her getting far too over emotional about wanting to save any mares and foals especially at any cost and frankly, i dont think she should be being encouraged as she's looking at things with 20/20 vision.
How to get these animals home or where they go once you've 'saved' them as people are being encouraged to do are not problems that are people on her group are encouraged to put a lot of thought into.

The whole group is an accident waiting to happen. You simply cant save them all from slaughter and its tackling the problem the wrong way round anyway.


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## Shettie (9 March 2013)

Iv'e already tried, I got accused of working for turners, a private message a minute telling me I had blood on my hands and a murderer for about an hour, crashed my phone and I gave up trying to get back onto facebook 
Then got a witch hunt as I was evil


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## lula (9 March 2013)

Shettie said:



			Iv'e already tried, I got accused of working for turners, a private message a minute telling me I had blood on my hands and a murderer for about an hour, crashed my phone and I gave up trying to get back onto facebook 
Then got a witch hunt as I was evil 

Click to expand...


heh

sounds about right.
wonder how many of these rescued ponies are going to need rescuing off the saviours this time next year? 
i hate to be cynical, im sure they all have hearts on the right place but ego sure is making its rather unsavory presence felt in a lot of the 'thank god for me/arent i great saving ponies' posts from the W.J sisters.


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## Horselover39 (9 March 2013)

From what I've heard there's a lot of good work being done.
The campaign is growing in strength daily and some of the girls are financially secure and have yards.


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## lula (9 March 2013)

Horselover39 said:



			From what I've heard there's a lot of good work being done.
The campaign is growing in strength daily and some of the girls are financially secure and have yards.
		
Click to expand...

mmmm. well, i hope someone is because jackie's running out of room fast and anyone else seems to be looking for land to rent to put some on.

I hope you're right though but that wasn't wholly my impression.


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## Horselover39 (9 March 2013)

Regardless of that. Potter's appear to be getting it right and Turners undisputedly wrong.....
Why do the family not turn it around..... Or is it too late?


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## CindyG (11 March 2013)

Some outlet is needed for slaughter.  Closing everything down wont solve the problem.


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## hackneylass2 (13 March 2013)

But closing the ones who disregard horse welfare is very important.
With things as they are at the moment, others will fill the void if there is profit to be made.

 I cant see how anyone on this forum can defend Red Lion. The ambivalence to this outfit surprises me.


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## Amymay (13 March 2013)

hackneylass2 said:



			But closing the ones who disregard horse welfare is very important.
With things as they are at the moment, others will fill the void if there is profit to be made.
		
Click to expand...

It's not as simple as just closing one plant, and using another to replace the service instead.  Quite simply what needs to happen is that their processes are tightened up, and those put in a position of responsibility to monitor the welfare of the animals simply do their job.




			I cant see how anyone on this forum can defend Red Lion. The ambivalence to this outfit surprises me.
		
Click to expand...

I don't think there is support on this thread for Red Lion, perse - just the service it provides.


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## Alec Swan (13 March 2013)

amymay said:



			It's not as simple as just closing one plant, and using another to replace the service instead.  Quite simply what needs to happen is that their processes are tightened up, and those put in a position of responsibility to monitor the welfare of the animals simply do their job.

.......
		
Click to expand...

Not a waisted word.  

Alec.


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## Bertieb123 (13 March 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			Not a waisted word.  

Alec.
		
Click to expand...

Perhaps we should, tell the Government to stop cutting Inspectors in All Licenced Slaughterhouses and do away with the self regulation of the Meat industry idea, I think the whole horsemeat thing should prove this! What inspectors left and Vet in these places cannot be in all places at place at once, I don't think it would be the case they not doing there job properly, its the fact they cannot, and they are not listened to when things are wrong. Made me mad to hear the quote about Bute "you would need to eat 500 burgers a day to have a harmful effect" (government spin doctor I suspect) so why they when the scandal broke did a almost overnight policy come in that all horse carcases for human consumption must be tested for bute and not released until a negative result for Bute received, if it not harmful then why test?


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## Bertieb123 (13 March 2013)

Bertieb123 said:



			Perhaps we should, tell the Government to stop cutting Inspectors in All Licenced Slaughterhouses and do away with the self regulation of the Meat industry idea, I think the whole horsemeat thing should prove this! What inspectors left and Vet in these places cannot be in all places at place at once, I don't think it would be the case they not doing there job properly, its the fact they cannot, and they are not listened to when things are wrong. Made me mad to hear the quote about Bute "you would need to eat 500 burgers a day to have a harmful effect" (government spin doctor I suspect) so why they when the scandal broke did a almost overnight policy come in that all horse carcases for human consumption must be tested for bute and not released until a negative result for Bute received, if it not harmful then why test?

Click to expand...

http://www.unison.org.uk/asppresspack/pressrelease_view.asp?id=2935

Lots of info here!


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## Alec Swan (14 March 2013)

Bertieb123 said:



			.......

.. What inspectors left and Vet in these places cannot be in all places at place at once, I don't think it would be the case they not doing there job properly, its the fact they cannot, and they are not listened to when things are wrong. 

Made me mad to hear the quote about Bute ....... so why they when the scandal broke did a almost overnight policy come in that all horse carcases for human consumption must be tested for bute and not released until a negative result for Bute received, if it not harmful then why test?

Click to expand...

Para 1,  horses are not slaughtered on a conveyer belt system,  as say sheep would be,  because of the practicalities of the process.  They tend to be dealt with singly and processed (bled,  eviscerated and skinned),  so there should be a Gov. paid official present,  if the animal is to go for human consumption.

Para 2,  the question of Bute is an interesting one.  When the question of page IX was being raised,  it was felt that the simple act of an owner at any time in the horses career opting out of slaughter for the human food chain,  wouldn't be sufficient.  What would be sufficient however,  would be that if there were a drug used for horses which had "Previously",  been banned and so removed from the human medicine chest,  then this would lend support to the argument.

The simple fact is that Bute only presented a minor risk to humans,  when administered,  and the retained quantities within horse meat would be so infinitesimally small,  that the risk is minor.  It pains me to say this,  but that Government minister was actually right!  

The question of Bute was used to support page IX.  

If we really want to worry about the problems of animals retaining fed substances,  then we should consider that ALL of the commercially poultry which is on our supermarket shelves is fed a permanent diet of antibiotics.  I suspect that commercially produced and housed pork,  and possibly beef,  are also fed such a diet,  and we wonder why our resistance to ever more powerful antibiotics continues to grow.  The only reason why these anti-bs are permitted is because were they not then the death rate from farmed livestock would be so great as to make the business unviable.

I suspect that the truth is that we don't really ever know what "Actually"  goes on!!  Worrying,  isn't it?

Alec.


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## niagaraduval (14 March 2013)

It's not the slaughter itself (although I despise slaughter of ANY animal and am proud to be vegetarian) it's the travel and abuse they have to endure before they reach their death. They are already treated like meat whilst they are still alive.

I blame over breeding, back yard breeders and dealers looking to make a quick buck. We have to slaughter horses, there are too many unwanted horses. Their fate would be far worse if we didn't dispose of them in this way. Sickens me though.


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## Fintan (14 March 2013)

@ Niagara

Youre spot on. Like I did write before, I am living close to a "Turner" collection point in Ireland.

I have seen thousands of horses here waiting for to be picked up.

At the collection point they did get at least some hay. But their journey did start long before.

Left to good with no food many of them sick somewhere in Ireland and then brought to this collection point.

Here close to the mainstreet kept in such a way that most people did think well that is nice but this situation was only a temporary situation for to calm the people down.

The horses rugged so nobody can see the condition.

Many many of them no passports, but it is so easy to get a passport. Shipped from Ireland to northern ireland as a sports horse and from the north to UK.

I don`t mind to eat a bit of bute but it is like Alec did say. When you are sick, have a bit chicken or turkey and you will have all the antibiotics you need.

What is making me sick is the big spidernet of lies behind the whole lot and even more the situation that a horse or animals in general have to travel that far for slaughter.

Absolutely no sense, only for the big money factory of meat processors.


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## Alec Swan (14 March 2013)

Fintan,

I'm not questioning what you say now,  but I'm advised that there have been several slaughter halls re-opened in Ireland,  and recently,  so if that's the case,  why are they troubling to ship them to England,  and by a lengthy route,  from what I'm told?  

The thin,  or aged or starved horse is of no commercial value to the Abattoir,  for the simple reason that it's carrying heavily depleted flesh supplies,  and becomes more of a liability to the buyer,  I'd have thought.  

I'm not suggesting that horses aren't shipped from Ireland and across the water,  but if the animals are in the sorry state which everyone seems to say,  where would the profit margin be,  when a 16hh horse which is well covered is only worth £3-400,  where is the profit margin in the emaciated?

I'm here to have it explained to me,  but currently,  there's little that makes much sense,  it seems to me. 

Alec.


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## MerrySherryRider (14 March 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			I'm not suggesting that horses aren't shipped from Ireland and across the water,  but if the animals are in the sorry state which everyone seems to say,  where would the profit margin be,  when a 16hh horse which is well covered is only worth £3-400,  where is the profit margin in the emaciated?

I'm here to have it explained to me,  but currently,  there's little that makes much sense,  it seems to me. 

Alec.
		
Click to expand...

The Red Lion says they buy horses from Ireland and currently the FSA are looking into passport irregularities. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-stoke-staffordshire-21681291


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## Fintan (14 March 2013)

@ Alec

you are dead right. What Turner did here was the average. He did take the good ones and the bad ones and by the amount he was able to get it did level out.

The next thing might be that the control at an abbatoir in Ireland is a bit more strict. Horses with no passport? No.
If you want them to be killed you have to pay about 300 or 400 Euro.

But when you find a little hole in the hedge, somebody taking care about the passport and not charging you and the job is done, you will save the money and many will go this route.

As well the Abbatoirs in Ireland have had waiting lists and you did need to bring the horse to them.

Many people dont want to face the reality and so they give the horses to others doing the dirty job.

Within the last couple of weeks every thing is a bit more quiet. Less activity.

But now when you pass the big hill in Ballymon (Dublin) there is a large amount of horses just left behind again.

Now county council has to deal with them because the way trough the hedge is not working as good as before.

It is not Turner alone, but Companies like this support the business in such a way as they make it possible.

It is in the very first beginning the owners. Some can`t afford the money to put a horse down and other will avoid it because for this money 300 Euro they can buy a new horse on Donedeal.

Normally we should do it in such a way like with kitchen aplience. When you buy a horse you have to pay a disposal fee up front and then the local county council or who ever has to take care about. 

Nearly everybody in this game is guilty, breeders, owners and the industry behind.

But I like the idea with the disposal fee. Any horse has to have a passport like a car a tax book.

The passport should include the disposal fee. So "breeders" will think twice before they increase the population and short minded buyers as well. 

Like somebody else did say, a horse is not only for christmas. Think twice before you buy one and make sure that you can take care about.


@ horserider

now there it is, black on white. I won`t call names but I have seen it over years.


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## MerrySherryRider (14 March 2013)

Isn't there an 8 week waiting list for horses to go to slaughter in Ireland ? Its an expensive wait to keep a horse for an extra 2 months.


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## Fintan (14 March 2013)

I can`t tell you because my horses are not for human consumption. And for to be honest when somebody is so tight that he can`t keep them for 8 weeks longer he is either in trouble because he has lost his job (sad enough) or he did not overview the full responibillity at the time he did buy the horse.


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## amandap (14 March 2013)

There have been fields of horses near Dublin all the 15 years my sister has lived here. She drives to Dublin every three weeks. I suspect there are fields of horses everywhere including UK that used to go for slaughter.

Apologies, just jumping in without reading the whole thread but I don't believe Ireland is the problem. It's the system. If you search the internet waste horses are also coming to Europe from USA and Canada... where are they ending up? Where do the waste UK horses end up?

I'm with Fintan everyone is responsible to some degree or another and the whole system stinks imo. Waste horses are unlikely to be drug free in my view and tbh many of the Irish ones are more likely to be drug free.


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## suestowford (14 March 2013)

horserider said:



			Isn't there an 8 week waiting list for horses to go to slaughter in Ireland ? Its an expensive wait to keep a horse for an extra 2 months.
		
Click to expand...

There's a waiting list at Potter's too, has been for a long time.


amandap said:



			I suspect there are fields of horses everywhere including UK that used to go for slaughter.
		
Click to expand...

Yup. I could show you a few round here.


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## Fintan (15 March 2013)

There is nations, breeding horses for slaughter and consumption. And I don`t mind, I even don`t mind them on my plate.

For some people this might sound cruel. But in my opinion, as long as a horse did life in such a way that it was no cruelty (and I wish the same for any other animal as well) and it was slaughtered without all the stress, it is OK.

If you do it properly the horse will not even realise this. I always did bring my horses when the time did come in person to the abbatoir, mostly on a saturday and I was with the horse till to the end.

There was never a stressed situation. Not for the horse.

Only nowerdays with all these killing factorys like conveur belts I don`t do it.

But I also don`t buy beef or meat from a supermarket that is in their supply chain.

I love my rural butcher, acting also in the sense of animal wellfair. Quiet and behaving like a priest, no stress and every thing with respect for the animal.

But there going to die. Since a KG of meat has to be cheaper than a KG of animal feed, there is no room for humanity and animal wellfare.

The factory process is meassured in "work units" like on a conveur belt and it is one. 
Once when one person gets stuck in the process others are in stand by waiting for supply.
Dependend on the person that has to do the first part of the job before.

The system is wrong and we are a part of the system. 

Looking for discounts for a "better world".


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## Burmilla (15 March 2013)

Fintan, your horses were/are fortunate to have you as their owner. Your respect and committment to them shines through your post. I agree with your opinions.


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## Bertieb123 (15 March 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			Para 1,  horses are not slaughtered on a conveyer belt system,  as say sheep would be,  because of the practicalities of the process.  They tend to be dealt with singly and processed (bled,  eviscerated and skinned),  so there should be a Gov. paid official present,  if the animal is to go for human consumption.

Para 2,  the question of Bute is an interesting one.  When the question of page IX was being raised,  it was felt that the simple act of an owner at any time in the horses career opting out of slaughter for the human food chain,  wouldn't be sufficient.  What would be sufficient however,  would be that if there were a drug used for horses which had "Previously",  been banned and so removed from the human medicine chest,  then this would lend support to the argument.

The simple fact is that Bute only presented a minor risk to humans,  when administered,  and the retained quantities within horse meat would be so infinitesimally small,  that the risk is minor.  It pains me to say this,  but that Government minister was actually right!  

The question of Bute was used to support page IX.  

If we really want to worry about the problems of animals retaining fed substances,  then we should consider that ALL of the commercially poultry which is on our supermarket shelves is fed a permanent diet of antibiotics.  I suspect that commercially produced and housed pork,  and possibly beef,  are also fed such a diet,  and we wonder why our resistance to ever more powerful antibiotics continues to grow.  The only reason why these anti-bs are permitted is because were they not then the death rate from farmed livestock would be so great as to make the business unviable.

I suspect that the truth is that we don't really ever know what "Actually"  goes on!!  Worrying,  isn't it?

Alec.
		
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Alec not all Sheep, Cattle, Pigs are killed on a conveyor system in the UK there are many small Abattoirs in the who don't run this system, there are Government Vets and Inspectors also in these places, in an ideal world all animals would be Stunned, Bled, Skinned, Eviscerated and Inspected as fit for Human Consumption one at a time, in reality this does not happen they are done one after another (not at the speed of the conveyer system obviously) or in batches, after Government cuts there have been cuts to the number of officials in these places who are no longer able to be everywhere at one time, The Vets do Checks on animals arrival (including passport checks, fit to travel and fit for slaughter checks) so are usually outside, the inspector(s) are in the slaughterhall inspecting carcases and doing paperwork, before cuts to officials there were enough inspectors to observe lairage and slaughter practices. This is where CCTV needs to be looked at, but then again who is going to monitor the footage? surely not the abattoir themselves! 

I think my point was missed about Bute I totally agree what you were saying and yes we would be horrified to know what is in all our food Drugs and the list could go on! Even if you a veggie you wouldn't escape from the chemicals! The point I was trying to make was if there only a minimal risk with Bute then why has the carcase from a horse got to be held until a negative result received? You don't have this with any other species on the off chance it may had been given any drug without the correct withdraw period or medicated with something not fit for human consumption.   

Personal thoughts are more horse abattoirs should open (properly run and regulated). Get back to basics with food though I know this is in an ideal world, get back to our butchers, greengrocers, and get cooking! 

Another personal view I hold is all the Cancers, intolerances to certain foods, Allergies, Behaviour problems (plus many more). Could all the Antibiotics, chemicals used to produce our food contribute to this?


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## Alec Swan (16 March 2013)

Bertieb123 said:



			........ This is where CCTV needs to be looked at, but then again who is going to monitor the footage? surely not the abattoir themselves! 

*CCTV footage is all very well,  but for 8 hours of filming,  then presumably,  the next day,  there has to be a paid official who spends their day,  trying to stay awake watching a tedious slaughter regime.  If there are 6 cameras in an abattoir,  would you suggest 6 officials?  This current cry for Camera evidence is a complete and utter waist of time.  Government officials,  Vets and Meat inspectors are in place to ensure that the laws of the land are adhered to.  They are the ones who are,  in part,  responsible.*

....... if there only a minimal risk with Bute then why has the carcase from a horse got to be held until a negative result received? You don't have this with any other species on the off chance it may had been given any drug without the correct withdraw period or medicated with something not fit for human consumption.   

*Despite the existence of page IX I don't honestly believe that a simple signature or a demand,  is legally binding.  If I sell you a car,  can I place within the logbook the condition that the car must never be exported?  Of course I can't.  When you own the car,  it's yours to do with as you will.  I suspect that the same applies to the ownership of a horse,  or anything else where "Possession" is concerned.

With the legal requirement that a horse having had Bute administered,  cannot enter the food chain,  then that's a different matter.  I suspect that Bute is what removes a horse from the human food chain,  and not a decision made by a previous owner,  perhaps 10 years previously.*

Another personal view I hold is all the Cancers, intolerances to certain foods, Allergies, Behaviour problems (plus many more). Could all the Antibiotics, chemicals used to produce our food contribute to this?

*An excellent question,  and one I suspect which wont stand too great an inspection.  The problem is that we have to eat,  and we have to produce food by the cheapest route,  and there's only one way that we can do that,  it seems.*

Click to expand...

Alec.


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## Bertieb123 (16 March 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			Alec.
		
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Once again my point missed about officials in these places, and no I not saying 6 of them to view footage was thinking more on the lines of independent body to do this. Alec you must be so experienced in the matter of what goes on in Slaughterhouses I not going to comment on it anymore.

As for the Bute question? All down to trust then, same with cattle, sheep, pigs, goats, poultry, farmed game, wild game (if you can call it that as most reared in captivity from birth/hatching and of course not medicated!)How many go to market after being drenched with something then straight to abattoir? Just think whole thing is a joke


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## amandap (16 March 2013)

Fintan said:



			The system is wrong and we are a part of the system. 

Looking for discounts for a "better world".
		
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That's it in a nutshell.


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## Bertieb123 (16 March 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			Alec.
		
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amandap said:



			That's it in a nutshell. 

Click to expand...

That's ok then, lets just all turn a blind eye


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## amandap (16 March 2013)

Bertieb123 said:



			That's ok then, lets just all turn a blind eye

Click to expand...

I think you've misunderstood. I think all of us realize things have got to change but we all play a part in the system. Demand and supply is the basis of how it all works.


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## Alec Swan (16 March 2013)

Bertieb123 said:



			Once again my point missed about officials in these places, and no I not saying 6 of them to view footage was thinking more on the lines of independent body to do this. Alec you must be so experienced in the matter of what goes on in Slaughterhouses I not going to comment on it anymore.

As for the Bute question? All down to trust then, same with cattle, sheep, pigs, goats, poultry, farmed game, wild game (if you can call it that as most reared in captivity from birth/hatching and of course not medicated!)How many go to market after being drenched with something then straight to abattoir? Just think whole thing is a joke

Click to expand...

*Becoming cross with me,  will achieve nothing!  We both want the same thing,  but I just don't see your proposals as working.  

Para1.  So you're thinking along the lines of an independent body are you?  We already have one.  THEY ARE ALREADY BEING PAID by the taxpayer and the farmer (by levies),  and they are being found wanting.  They are THE STATE VETERINARY SERVICE.  They're being paid to do a job,  and they are failing,  miserably.*



Bertieb123 said:



			That's ok then, lets just all turn a blind eye

*No,  certainly not.  I understand your frustration,  but appointing a fresh and equally inept group to monitor horse slaughter,  is NOT the way forward.  The way forward is that we insist that our paid Government Employees do the job which they're being paid to do.  Should they be able to offer legitimate reasons for their failings,  THEN we replace them with those who will carry out their paid duties and to our satisfaction.

Have you wondered why our paid officials are being so lax?  Would you like me to tell you?*

Click to expand...

Alec.


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## amandap (16 March 2013)

I know little about slaughter houses but I still think the changes have to come from within them regards animal welfare and respect. A cultural change among those employed and their working conditions and support structures are some of the ways I see to go from previous threads on this matter.

As long as we all demand cheap meat someone will be there to take short cuts to make a profit. Shortening the chain dramatically is going to be vital I think.
We need to realize meat and food in general isn't cheap if you want it well produced with high welfare standards and environmental impact reduced.


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## Alec Swan (16 March 2013)

amandap said:



			I know little about slaughter houses but I still think the changes have to come from within them regards animal welfare and respect. A cultural change among those employed and their working conditions and support structures are some of the ways I see to go from previous threads on this matter.

.......
		
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Such a good post.  

If those who have no self respect,  or no respect for their trade,  aren't encouraged to see their trade as having a basis which is supported by a level of ethics,  then the witnessed sadness will continue.  

If we are able to reinstate,  or support,  a trade which has a purpose,  other than the convenient disposal of our equines,  which we "really can't consider",  because we are spineless,  then not only will the Slaughterman acquire a level of self respect,  but so will those who administer to them,  and importantly,  so will we.  

Perhaps we need to start a National movement,  one which will encourage our all powerful equine and general charities to understand that their supporters demand change,  and support that change.

Loving horses,  as we do,  should have nothing to do with being weak.

Alec.


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## Bertieb123 (16 March 2013)

Alec Swan said:



*Becoming cross with me,  will achieve nothing!  We both want the same thing,  but I just don't see your proposals as working.  

Para1.  So you're thinking along the lines of an independent body are you?  We already have one.  THEY ARE ALREADY BEING PAID by the taxpayer and the farmer (by levies),  and they are being found wanting.  They are THE STATE VETERINARY SERVICE.  They're being paid to do a job,  and they are failing,  miserably.*



Alec.
		
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Sorry Alec not getting mad with you just a little frustrated! Yes we do want the same thing.

Yes the FSA is failing to do the job properly I agree, there have been abuses in other abattoirs not just horse ones, I feel the finger needs pointing at management level they not those on the shop floor who are pushed staff wise and often intimidated in these places. As far as I know there is no State Veterinary  Service in abattoirs the Vets are Contracted to the FSA through agency's.


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## Bertieb123 (16 March 2013)

Bertieb123 said:



			Sorry Alec not getting mad with you just a little frustrated! Yes we do want the same thing.

Yes the FSA is failing to do the job properly I agree, there have been abuses in other abattoirs not just horse ones, I feel the finger needs pointing at management level they not those on the shop floor who are pushed staff wise and often intimidated in these places. As far as I know there is no State Veterinary  Service in abattoirs the Vets are Contracted to the FSA through agency's.
		
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 http://www.food.gov.uk/enforcement/monitoring/mhservice/workwithindustry/workforce#anchor_2


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## Fintan (16 March 2013)

@ Bertieb123

sorry you did get me wrong.

"That's ok then, lets just all turn a blind eye"

This was sarcasm.

The system does start with the costumer. And many of the costumers are like Homer Simson.

A british social reformer did say this (John Ruskin)

There is hardly anything in the world that someone cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price alone are that persons lawful prey. Its unwise to pay too much, but its worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money  that is all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot  it cant be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will have enough to pay for something better.

And he is spot on.

But the average costumer will start to argue about the price no matter how cheap it is.

That is what I did mean when I did say "Discounts for a better world"

The people want to get gifts and they say they don`t have enough money.

I say as long there is enough money for the cigaretts, the pint ond for averybody in the family a expensive smart phone, new every 6 months, there is too much money. 

This money could be converted into a healthy quality of life and with this also to respect of the production process.

And a part of the production process is the animal.

Nobody should complain because of a bit of bute in the meat. Most people did ask for it.

Instead of supporting factories like Tescos and others, buy local, buy controlled and buy if you want organic.

Support the local people (shops craftsman) and start to be a responsible part of the environment.

Dry the big factories out and get the power back in youre hand instead of chasing for discounts.

What goes around that comes around.

Now everybody has to pay the bill for the "discount" from the discounter.

The animals have to pay this bill long since.

I remember my mom was cooking. She did source what we could afford and she was able to feed the whole family in a healthy and delicious way.

She had to cook with brain, we have had the vegetables of the season and not the strawberrys at christmas.

She did bake the cake on her own and not out of the package.

There was a Sunday roast but not a roast e.g. every day.

And we did learn to do the same.

But now I know some people not even able to open a can without an accident. 
They can`t cook at all, they even don`t know what a dinner is made from.

But they cry cheaper, cheaper. 

Sick system and it does start with us. We ask for it, only many won`t realize what they ask for.


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## MerrySherryRider (16 March 2013)

Here's something you can do, the government is due to update legislation regarding the slaughter of animals in the UK. Email the minister for agriculture and food David Heath or click the link to use the campaign email direct link which asks for compulsory CCTV monitoring in slaughter houses. 
 CCTV is supported all welfare charities and as the UK has the most CCTV cameras in the world, it seems rather strange that you are likely to be filmed every day of your life, whereas an animal in a slaughter house is housed and killed without 24/7 monitoring.

http://www.rspca.org.uk/getinvolved/campaigns/farm/cctv


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## Alec Swan (16 March 2013)

horserider,

I'm struggling to accept your points.  Accepting that CCTV cameras will put a stop to all abattoir cruelty,  could you explain to me who is to monitor the film,  and when?  Think it through,  and then reply.

Alec.


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## Alec Swan (16 March 2013)

Fintan said:



			.......

A british social reformer did say this (John Ruskin)

There is hardly anything in the world that someone cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price alone are that persons lawful prey. Its unwise to pay too much, but its worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money  that is all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot  it cant be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will have enough to pay for something better.

And he is spot on.

.......
		
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....... and so he is,  and so are you,  and so are we,  but how do we change our world?

Alec.


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## MerrySherryRider (16 March 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			horserider,

I'm struggling to accept your points.  Accepting that CCTV cameras will put a stop to all abattoir cruelty,  could you explain to me who is to monitor the film,  and when?  Think it through,  and then reply.

Alec.
		
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Okkkaaay.

 How does CCTV monitoring usually work ? 
Someone, -an employee, member of the visiting public, customer or vet, or FSA official blah, blah, blah either sees or believes something unethical/illegal has occurred and reports it.
 The tape is then checked. 
 If this doesn't work for you Alec, then perhaps you could let the government, courts, highways agency, police, department stores, etc, etc know and they can save a lot of money by withdrawing thousands of cameras.

It is not likely that the FSA can be on duty 24/7, so CCTV would be the next best option, unless you want to volunteer for monitoring duty.


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## Alec Swan (16 March 2013)

horserider said:



			Okkkaaay.

 How does CCTV monitoring usually work ? 
Someone, -an employee, member of the visiting public, customer or vet, or FSA official blah, blah, blah either sees or believes something unethical/illegal has occurred and reports it.
 The tape is then checked. 
 If this doesn't work for you Alec, then perhaps you could let the government, courts, highways agency, police, department stores, etc, etc know and they can save a lot of money by withdrawing thousands of cameras.

It is not likely that the FSA can be on duty 24/7, so CCTV would be the next best option, unless you want to volunteer for monitoring duty.
		
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You haven't actually answered my question.  The filmed work is on footage,  Yes?  The checks are done,  as the film is created,  Yes?  WHO IS TO MONITOR THE FILM WORK?

Are you suggesting that whilst there's an *EXISTING* Government Agency,  monitoring the proceedings,  that we have a secondary film of the proceedings?  Are you suggesting that if our paid for Gov. Agency aren't up to the mark that we have a secondary film system?

Would it not be a simple matter to have the FSA agents actually do the job for which they're paid?  Is it that difficult to understand?

Alec.


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## JumpingDizzy (16 March 2013)

It has been proven time and time again that the presence of CCTV cameras changes behaviour. The mere fact that they are there is highly likely to reduce poor practice. CCTV does not work on the basis of constant monitoring. It is a highly useful tool for either retrospective review or remote spot checking. It is actually a cost effective form of regulation that would greatly support and enhance the current oversight mechanisms.


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## Zuzan (16 March 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			You haven't actually answered my question.  The filmed work is on footage,  Yes?  The checks are done,  as the film is created,  Yes?  WHO IS TO MONITOR THE FILM WORK?

Are you suggesting that whilst there's an *EXISTING* Government Agency,  monitoring the proceedings,  that we have a secondary film of the proceedings?  Are you suggesting that if our paid for Gov. Agency aren't up to the mark that we have a secondary film system?

Would it not be a simple matter to have the FSA agents actually do the job for which they're paid?  Is it that difficult to understand?

Alec.
		
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CCTV is being used to monitor fishermen to ensure good practice I see no reason why MHS and State Vets can't use it as an aid to monitoring slaughterhouses.. no need for extra govt / agency body.. just an efficient mondern means of effective monitoring.  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-21577927


Plus there are additional reasons CCTV would be useful:  Not only are cameras a deterrent against acts of animal cruelty and poor practices but they also have other positive uses, such as security at abattoirs and act as a useful training aid for slaughter men, vets and meat hygiene inspectors to ensure standards are maintained

Personally I would like to see a public channel showing slaughter .. good practice as a means to educate those who haven't a clue about how meat is produced..  there is far too much ignorance .. if the public view humane methods at UK slaughterhouses it means that UK produced meat will improve its standing with the public..  there will be few vocal fringe bods who kick up about killing animals for food but they are in reality few.. just very noisy..  the point being that if the general public are well informed they will better be able to rationalise humane slaughter rather than react emotionally when the fringe minority use emotive and sensational propaganda. 

CCTV should be viewed as a WIN WIN scenario.


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## MerrySherryRider (17 March 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			You haven't actually answered my question.  The filmed work is on footage,  Yes?  The checks are done,  as the film is created,  Yes?  WHO IS TO MONITOR THE FILM WORK?

Are you suggesting that whilst there's an *EXISTING* Government Agency,  monitoring the proceedings,  that we have a secondary film of the proceedings?  Are you suggesting that if our paid for Gov. Agency aren't up to the mark that we have a secondary film system?

Would it not be a simple matter to have the FSA agents actually do the job for which they're paid?  Is it that difficult to understand?

Alec.
		
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I think the FSA officers like to go home sometimes... or are you suggesting they are present 24/7/365 ? Without lunch breaks ? 

I do wonder about your negative history of posts on topics of animal welfare and welfare agencies sometimes.


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## amandap (17 March 2013)

Zuzan said:



			Personally I would like to see a public channel showing slaughter .. good practice as a means to educate those who haven't a clue about how meat is produced..  there is far too much ignorance .. if the public view humane methods at UK slaughterhouses it means that UK produced meat will improve its standing with the public..  there will be few vocal fringe bods who kick up about killing animals for food but they are in reality few.. just very noisy..  the point being that if the general public are well informed they will better be able to rationalise humane slaughter rather than react emotionally when the fringe minority use emotive and sensational propaganda. 

.
		
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Yikes! I see your point but I doubt those it's aimed at (general public) would watch it. I expect it would attract sickos and what about the risks of children seeing it? 
Perhaps there should be abbatoir service like jury service? There would be outrage I fear. 

CCTV may well have it's place but where is the reward and incentive? We expect someone to do this for us yet all we want to do is bash them and check them? Surely we have to ensure their working conditions are improved, slaughter is as good and respectful as it can be by improving techniques, facilities and training? Trust has to come into this somewhere and if we continually vilify and just use checks and penalties how will things really improve?


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## Bertieb123 (17 March 2013)

Zuzan and Horserider agree with you. CCTV could be useful in many ways including an aid for the officials in abattoirs, if CCTV is installed as a matter of practice it could be used as evidence if there is an issue and used in a court of law.(To back up any other evidence). Problem with the CCTV footage from the likes of Animal Aid and Hillside is it was done undercover and there are trespass laws which makes the footage unusable in a court of law. 

I have to agree Horserider there does seem to be an issue here towards officials as I have tried to explain many times they cannot be in all places at once, if you know the workings of most abattoirs you would realise this, there are two sides to every story.


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## Fintan (17 March 2013)

@ Alec

how we can change it in general, I don`t know.

I drive around the country looking for good products.

I buy my meat only from a craft butcher I know. He is not doing big numbers and the way he is doing it I like.

His brother runs a farm about 6 miles from his shop. Behind his abbatoir he has some clean and friendly stables.
The animals will also after the transport from the farm to his place be stabled for a couple of days so they can relax.

And then when the time does come they go for a very little walk to the abbatoir in singles and the job is done.

They are used to follow somebody (farm trained) and so every thing is very quiet.

The good ting as well is, he is not more expensive than Tesco or others but the quality is enormous better. 
And he is able to make a living out of this and not under pressure by the combines.


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## Alec Swan (17 March 2013)

Bertieb123 said:



			.......

I have to agree Horserider there does seem to be an issue here towards officials as I have tried to explain many times they cannot be in all places at once, if you know the workings of most abattoirs you would realise this, there are two sides to every story.
		
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If that comment is aimed at me,  could I point out to you the relevant passage,  from an offering,  OF YOURS?;

_Official Veterinarians (OV)  qualified veterinary surgeons, who have additionally attained official designation *to enforce legislation on public health and animal welfare at slaughter*. They carry statutory responsibility under the relevant hygiene regulations for ante-mortem inspection, slaughter, post-mortem inspection, and health marking. The majority are supplied to the FSA by veterinary contractors._

You will see that I've highlighted one of the responsibilities of the visiting FSA Officials.  For anyone to claim that the poor old fsa officials have a home to go too,  is shifting the responsibilities of those government paid employees,  and whilst those who commit acts of cruelty should face the force of the Law,  let us not be in doubt that there are fsa officials,  paid for by you and I,  who are failing in their duties.

Answer me this,  if you will;  If you were on a public highway,  and you witnessed a Police Officer turning his back upon a serious crime,  would you not be the first to claim his negligence?  

The FSA Officials are paid to do a job,  and whilst there are slaughtermen who know full well that the man paid to monitor there conduct will ignore what he should know to be wrong,  then they will continue as they are.

Another question for you;  accepting that there wont be anyone to monitor the filmed footage,  which you're proposing,  just who are you going to blame,  when there is another secret filming done?  The cameras,  perhaps?

For the last time,  I am not opposed to those in officialdom per se,  but those who are already being paid to do a job,  but are negligent.

Install your cameras,  then there'll be someone else to blame,  wont there! 

Alec.


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## MerrySherryRider (17 March 2013)

The Red Lion has 3 full time FSA men, comprising of a vet and 2 meat hygiene inspectors.


 Should that vet work 24/7/365 while the hygiene inspectors could have an easy time and just work 12hr shifts 7 days a week. 

In order to give 24 hour coverage for just one official to be present, they would need 7 FSA officers rather than 3.
 In addition further FSA staff to cover during slaughter and processing periods, so perhaps a total of 10 employees.

So rather than pay the wages of an extra 7 staff, the CCTV might work out cheaper to finance.
 Plus, CCTV would be evidence and uncorruptable.


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## ann-jen (17 March 2013)

At the two abattoirs I worked at, most of the slaughtering started round about 6am and was finished by lunchtime so I don't think the OVS would have to work quite such punishing hours! But generally the role of the OVS is to check the animals in the lairage for obvious signs of disease. And wouldn't be observing the point of slaughter for every animal. I have to say I do think there is a place for CCTV though. And if obvious cases of malpractice were to be found to be going on/suspected then the footage could be reviewed in retrospect. In my experience, at the abattoirs I attended (admittedly only for a brief period of time) I never saw any animals incorrectly stunned and everything was done in a skilled and professional way. Obviously human error may sadly result in poor stunning technique from time to time but I think these occasions are probably the minority and not the norm even at red lion.


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## Alec Swan (17 March 2013)

horserider said:



			.......

 Plus, CCTV would be evidence and uncorruptable.
		
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You miss one important point.  Were the FSA doing the job for which *we pay them*,  then there would be a degree of suffering prevented.  "Prevention is better than cure",  or so my mum told me. 

Would you defend those who do the monitoring of "Welfare",  at the expense of animal cruelty?  

Would it not be better to have a disciplined culture in place,  one where those who police the system,  actually do the work,  for which they're paid?

Alec.


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## Bertieb123 (17 March 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			If that comment is aimed at me,  could I point out to you the relevant passage,  from an offering,  OF YOURS?;

_Official Veterinarians (OV) &#8211; qualified veterinary surgeons, who have additionally attained official designation *to enforce legislation on public health and animal welfare at slaughter*. They carry statutory responsibility under the relevant hygiene regulations for ante-mortem inspection, slaughter, post-mortem inspection, and health marking. The majority are supplied to the FSA by veterinary contractors._

You will see that I've highlighted one of the responsibilities of the visiting FSA Officials.  For anyone to claim that the poor old fsa officials have a home to go too,  is shifting the responsibilities of those government paid employees,  and whilst those who commit acts of cruelty should face the force of the Law,  let us not be in doubt that there are fsa officials,  paid for by you and I,  who are failing in their duties.

Answer me this,  if you will;  If you were on a public highway,  and you witnessed a Police Officer turning his back upon a serious crime,  would you not be the first to claim his negligence?  

The FSA Officials are paid to do a job,  and whilst there are slaughtermen who know full well that the man paid to monitor there conduct will ignore what he should know to be wrong,  then they will continue as they are.

Another question for you;  accepting that there wont be anyone to monitor the filmed footage,  which you're proposing,  just who are you going to blame,  when there is another secret filming done?  The cameras,  perhaps?

For the last time,  I am not opposed to those in officialdom per se,  but those who are already being paid to do a job,  but are negligent.

Install your cameras,  then there'll be someone else to blame,  wont there! 

Alec.
		
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No Alec I wouldn't claim negligence, I am not into the claim culture, Joke in a part as I have said time and again *THEY CANNOT BE IN ALL PLACES AT ONCE!During the investigation and if it emerges that officials not doing their jobs then they should be sacked.

As for CCTV if it there would it not possibly act as a deterrent if you were to have rouge slaughtermen or they not being supervised 24/7. Also as I said before it would be a useful tool if a breach is caught on camera. If there is nothing to hide then why be bothered about being filmed doing your job, I not saying it should be there as officials can't be bothered to do their jobs (as I said if they not then they should be sacked) BUT to back up what they are doing.There are slaughterhouses that use CCTV at the request of their customers who regularly audit the footage randomly for welfare breaches I believe there is a number of monitors around the building for all to see.*


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## Zuzan (17 March 2013)

amandap said:



			Yikes! I see your point but I doubt those it's aimed at (general public) would watch it. I expect it would attract sickos and what about the risks of children seeing it? 
Perhaps there should be abbatoir service like jury service? There would be outrage I fear.
		
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Done well slaughter is not dramatic .. so no I think "sickos" would find it really boring  I don't really see the problem with children seeing slaughter done well.. it is instantaneous and not traumatic.  I think this is a large part of the problem .. children are shielded from seeing things like this and it therefore becomes more of an issue than it should be.


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## ILuvCowparsely (17 March 2013)

Zuzan said:



			Personally I would like to see a public channel showing slaughter .. good practice as a means to educate those who haven't a clue about how meat is produced..  there is far too much ignorance .. if the public view humane methods at UK slaughterhouses it means that UK produced meat will improve its standing with the public..  there will be few vocal fringe bods who kick up about killing animals for food but they are in reality few.. just very noisy..  the point being that if the general public are well informed they will better be able to rationalise humane slaughter rather than react emotionally when the fringe minority use emotive and sensational propaganda. 

CCTV should be viewed as a WIN WIN scenario.
		
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 Personally speaking  I would not watch it.  I do not enjoy watching animals being slaughtered.

 CCTV yes for making sure animals do not suffer, but I will avoid seeing that ty.   Others watch it if you wish but any program like that which comes on tv for education or what ever will not be watched by me, seeing poor animals being shot or stund is not my idea of tv watching. 

Saw this first hand in the 1970's and it changed my life, my views are still the same.


I just didn't like to think about the poor animals, seeing rabbits being skewed on prongs like peas, or some on calling the cow over saying daisy daisy come her - cow comes over and he slits her throat  children supposed not to be traumatized by that??  well they were.  This would not be allowed now.


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## amandap (17 March 2013)

Zuzan said:



			Done well slaughter is not dramatic .. so no I think "sickos" would find it really boring  I don't really see the problem with children seeing slaughter done well.. it is instantaneous and not traumatic.  I think this is a large part of the problem .. children are shielded from seeing things like this and it therefore becomes more of an issue than it should be.
		
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Yes, I agree it may be boring done well but I was thinking of the hanging and bleeding but I suppose it depends how the CCTV is angled. I do agree children are too sheltered in many respects (the opposite in others!) but I can't get my head round slaughter TV.


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## MerrySherryRider (17 March 2013)

The thing is, that horses arrive at the Red Lion during the week and are penned until slaughter, which, and I'm happy to be corrected, but I think this happens once a week on a Friday. Therefore, sick, lame and frightened horses may be penned with other unknown horses for days.
 I would love someone to correct me on this, but a local farmer told me this.

Therefore. wouldn't it make sense for CCTV to monitor these horses from arrival until despatch and not just during periods when FSA are required to be present ?

It might just improve work practice and make the jobs better for the good guys who have to work in this environment with people who should never be let near a sentient being?

I just don't understand the objection to CCTV.


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## elijahasgal (18 March 2013)

To me, there is video out there of red lion slaughter, and potters in taunton.  They are like chalk and cheese.
Potters the animal is calmy led into the room and shot, you can see the speed that they are dead, then chained out and bled.  No cruelty. Almost compassionate. Even the horse that is down outside, that animal welfare makes a huge fuss about (the horse is down, no injuries apparent, looks in general good health, may be winded...)
Red lion, the whole set up is a factory. the animals may be stunned, but they are still hung up alive, and I cannot get my head around that. Its mechanised and grim. 
Yes CCTV needs to be there, they need cameras that can be watched on site, or monitered outside.  Just the simple fact that they are there and recording should help stop wrong doing. It can be prooved, is not just word of mouth, one against another.  Its impartial.


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## Alec Swan (18 March 2013)

horserider said:



			The thing is, that horses arrive at the Red Lion during the week and are penned until slaughter, .......

I just don't understand the objection to CCTV.
		
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I agree with you that there is,  and should be a concern about lairage conditions.  If the sick and the lame are made to stand for days,  with other horses,  then again,  this is wrong.  Monitoring Animal Welfare is the responsibility of the Government Officer who is employed,  in part,  for that purpose.  

I don't "object" to cctv cameras,  I just think that they will be a waist of time,  and they will achieve nothing,  because there will be no one to watch them.  Even if there were someone to watch them,  are you honestly suggesting that there should be two people employed to do the same job?  Are you suggesting that there should be one Government Official,  *and* someone to watch 6 or 8 hours of film footage,  every day?



elijahasgal said:



			To me, there is video out there of red lion slaughter, and potters in taunton.  They are like chalk and cheese.
Potters the animal is calmy led into the room and shot, you can see the speed that they are dead, then chained out and bled.  No cruelty. Almost compassionate. Even the horse that is down outside, that animal welfare makes a huge fuss about (the horse is down, no injuries apparent, looks in general good health, may be winded...)
Red lion, the whole set up is a factory. the animals may be stunned, but they are still hung up alive, and I cannot get my head around that. Its mechanised and grim. 
Yes CCTV needs to be there, they need cameras that can be watched on site, or monitered outside.  Just the simple fact that they are there and recording should help stop wrong doing. It can be prooved, is not just word of mouth, one against another.  Its impartial.
		
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I agree with you that the system used at Potters is the ideal,  and the treatment of those horses which were driven in to a shooting box at The Red Lion,  was anything but ideal.  I suspect that Potters were set up specifically for horses,  and the other was converted from it's more usual work with cattle,  but I'm not sure about that.

As the clamour for cctv seems to be gathering momentum,  then we'll see the outcome.  I suspect that those who are campaigning will win the day,  and that they will be installed,  but my honest belief is that they will be a complete waist of time and money,  and they wont prevent animal cruelty.

I continue to answer the same question with broadly the same answer.  If others believe that my argument is skewed,  or wrong,  then explain to me how.  I'm genuinely happy to hear,  and if there are points which I've missed,  then I'll listen.  

I've worked in an abattoir where there was a resident,  and State employed Vet.  The subject is probably grounds for another thread,  but as the turn round of State staff,  at that particular premises,  was as rapid as it was,  there was a permanent culture in place where there was effectively a stand off.  Those Vets were almost all of Eastern European extract,  generally their English was very poor,  and as they all so often came from a culture where animal welfare isn't actually the priority,  they were rarely present at the times when they should have been.  Many of these vets qualified in their home lands,  and with the promise of improved wages,  they arrive here,  and the only work available to them,  is Government work,  work I would add that most of our British vets don't want.

I'm not bashing vets,  and I'm not "opposed" to cctv cameras,  apart from the grounds which I've given.  There's nothing wrong with our existing system,  except that it isn't working,  and it isn't working because of inefficiency and a good old fashioned culture which involves those in officialdom turning a blind eye.

The above statements DO NOT apply to every British Abattoir,  but they do within some,  and as we all agree,  it's time for change.

Alec.


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## Bertieb123 (18 March 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			I agree with you that the system used at Potters is the ideal,  and the treatment of those horses which were driven in to a shooting box at The Red Lion,  was anything but ideal.  I suspect that Potters were set up specifically for horses,  and the other was converted from it's more usual work with cattle,  but I'm not sure about that.  

I've worked in an abattoir where there was a resident,  and State employed Vet.  The subject is probably grounds for another thread,  but as the turn round of State staff,  at that particular premises,  was as rapid as it was,  there was a permanent culture in place where there was effectively a stand off.

Agree Alec Potters is ideal, it is actually a multi-species abattoir BUT there are a couple of differences between there and Turners. Potters has a purpose built stunning pen for horses (or you could call it a large room) totally enclosed out of view of anything going on and  they use a free bullet.
Turners uses a normal Cattle stun box and appear to use a Captive bolt gun or cow punch which is not ideal for horses. I have been to Potters a couple of times and can hand on heart say the horses do not know what is going on, and they 'wash down' the box between each horse.

As for your other point you could have hit the nail on the head there.

Something else I been thinking about too, Ok I not going to say about officials but really we should blame EVERYONE for what happened in Red Lion (The one golden rule in a slaughterhouse) Alec, you would probably know this "No person engaged in the movement, lairaging, restraint, stunning, slaughter or killing of animals should permit any avoidable excitement, pain or suffering to any animal" taken from a passage of the WASK regs 1995 and it used to be written on the back of the slaughtermans licence (not sure if it still is). So perhaps we should ask ourselves what management and employees were doing too.
		
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## Anglebracket (18 March 2013)

horserider said:



			Here's something you can do, the government is due to update legislation regarding the slaughter of animals in the UK. Email the minister for agriculture and food David Heath or click the link to use the campaign email direct link which asks for compulsory CCTV monitoring in slaughter houses. 
 CCTV is supported all welfare charities and as the UK has the most CCTV cameras in the world, it seems rather strange that you are likely to be filmed every day of your life, whereas an animal in a slaughter house is housed and killed without 24/7 monitoring.

http://www.rspca.org.uk/getinvolved/campaigns/farm/cctv

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Thanks for posting the above campaign link. Hope enough people participate to make a difference.


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## Alec Swan (18 March 2013)

Bertieb123 said:



			.......

"No person engaged in the movement, lairaging, restraint, stunning, slaughter or killing of animals should permit any avoidable excitement, pain or suffering to any animal" taken from a passage of the WASK regs 1995 and it used to be written on the back of the slaughtermans licence (not sure if it still is). So perhaps we should ask ourselves what management and employees were doing too.
		
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How right you are,  and how I agree with the sentiments.  We now have in too many premises,  a lack of care which says as much for Society,  as it does for those who carry out such cruelty.  The truth is that we don't really care.

Alec.


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## elijahasgal (20 March 2013)

The main thing about cctv is that it is there and recording, and the people being recorded have NO idea if they are being watched or not. Nor weather they they will be monitored or not later on.
If someone wanted to play back, they could easily fast forward between the happenings.  
It really is the best way forward.  That and the use of a free bullet so the animal is actually dead when it is hung to be bled.


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## Crazy horse lady (21 March 2013)

1. yes a group has been set up, wow well done Einstien!
2. Its not just bute that is in the horse food chain, there is also antibiotics, fly sprays, sweet itch treatments, wormers, other pain killers, fitness enhancers etc etc, could this be all linked to so many cancers in humans?
3. The group understand the "need" for slaughter houses.  We would prefer (if you had seen the posts on the FB page) that the animals are shot quickly and with as less fuss as possible (as on footage from Potters).  
4. We do not agree with the treatment of horses at Red Lion, it is "breaking the law".
5. Turners should be closed and all operations suspended, until pending prosecution is completed.  How and why this is not happening I do not know.  After all they have broke the law.  
6.  CCTV will hopefully ensure that the processing of horses (and other animals in slaughter houses) is done swiftly, as stated by the law and without cruelty.  Again watch all the footage available, you tube, Hillside animal sanctuary etc.
7.  All monies collected by the group from the sales of products are going directly to Hillside.  
8.  The group was also started to bring awareness to what happens to horses at slaughter houses.  As we all know horses are super sensitive.  If possible shoot the horse in the head, at home, with its owner, while it is eating a bucket of feed, then the horse can go to the hounds.  This way the animal does not have to endure the trip, the smells, the noise etc.
9.  If there is a need for a horse slaughter house  they must abide by the rules and regulations. 
10. Breeders for the meat trade 
11.  Alec how would you expect ppl to react from such a "short" piece of film?  The majority of ppl are horrified to see the small clip.  The rest can't be shown obviously for legal reasons.  I have seen a tiny bit more than whats available and I can assure you "it is very grim"  
12.  The vets opinion in the film is one of horror and he says "oh thats not right" because its not right, the horse should be unconscious before its bled.  And the person sharpening his knives, slowly, while the horse is coming round, the vet comments "why is he taking his time"? why was he taking his time?  Perhaps the other vets who discredited this footage and the vets reactions are the very same vets who have gone a bit blind to this issue. Just saying
13. The group is not pointless, as is any other forum or FB page on this issue.  There are a lot of ppl who had no idea horses even got slaughter, in there fluffy likkle world.  They had NO idea of how cows, sheep etc are kept or slaughtered.  A lot of educated ppl from a huge spectrum of professions are giving a lot of valuable input to these issues.

So to summarise murder your horse at home!!!! The animals has served you well, you owe it this last mission in its life 

Horse killers, do the job swiftly and with compassion, for want of words 

Horse breeders for slaughter


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## Crazy horse lady (21 March 2013)

Crazy horse lady said:



			1. yes a group has been set up, wow well done Einstien!
2. Its not just bute that is in the horse food chain, there is also antibiotics, fly sprays, sweet itch treatments, wormers, other pain killers, fitness enhancers etc etc, could this be all linked to so many cancers in humans?
3. The group understand the "need" for slaughter houses.  We would prefer (if you had seen the posts on the FB page) that the animals are shot quickly and with as less fuss as possible (as on footage from Potters).  
4. We do not agree with the treatment of horses at Red Lion, it is "breaking the law".
5. Turners should be closed and all operations suspended, until pending prosecution is completed.  How and why this is not happening I do not know.  After all they have broke the law.  
6.  CCTV will hopefully ensure that the processing of horses (and other animals in slaughter houses) is done swiftly, as stated by the law and without cruelty.  Again watch all the footage available, you tube, Hillside animal sanctuary etc.
7.  All monies collected by the group from the sales of products are going directly to Hillside.  
8.  The group was also started to bring awareness to what happens to horses at slaughter houses.  As we all know horses are super sensitive.  If possible shoot the horse in the head, at home, with its owner, while it is eating a bucket of feed, then the horse can go to the hounds.  This way the animal does not have to endure the trip, the smells, the noise etc.
9.  If there is a need for a horse slaughter house  they must abide by the rules and regulations. 
10. Breeders for the meat trade 
11.  Alec how would you expect ppl to react from such a "short" piece of film?  The majority of ppl are horrified to see the small clip.  The rest can't be shown obviously for legal reasons.  I have seen a tiny bit more than whats available and I can assure you "it is very grim"  
12.  The vets opinion in the film is one of horror and he says "oh thats not right" because its not right, the horse should be unconscious before its bled.  And the person sharpening his knives, slowly, while the horse is coming round, the vet comments "why is he taking his time"? why was he taking his time?  Perhaps the other vets who discredited this footage and the vets reactions are the very same vets who have gone a bit blind to this issue. Just saying
13. The group is not pointless, as is any other forum or FB page on this issue.  There are a lot of ppl who had no idea horses even got slaughter, in there fluffy likkle world.  They had NO idea of how cows, sheep etc are kept or slaughtered.  A lot of educated ppl from a huge spectrum of professions are giving a lot of valuable input to these issues.

So to summarise murder your horse at home!!!! The animals has served you well, you owe it this last mission in its life 

Horse killers, do the job swiftly and with compassion, for want of words 

Horse breeders for slaughter 

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Oh and support your local butchers x


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## Crazy horse lady (21 March 2013)

luckyoldme said:



			For all of those with horses its horrible to think of them ending up in the slaughter house...but it is a necessity.
Anyone who thinks it should be banned in the uk needs to think seriuosly about what the alternatives are. There isn t an alternative.
		
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I agree, that would be THE worst thing ever to ban horse slaughter in the UK.  As much as I hate horse slaughter.


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## Crazy horse lady (21 March 2013)

Leviathan said:



			Personally speaking  I would not watch it.  I do not enjoy watching animals being slaughtered.

 CCTV yes for making sure animals do not suffer, but I will avoid seeing that ty.   Others watch it if you wish but any program like that which comes on tv for education or what ever will not be watched by me, seeing poor animals being shot or stund is not my idea of tv watching. 

Saw this first hand in the 1970's and it changed my life, my views are still the same.


I just didn't like to think about the poor animals, seeing rabbits being skewed on prongs like peas, or some on calling the cow over saying daisy daisy come her - cow comes over and he slits her throat  children supposed not to be traumatized by that??  well they were.  This would not be allowed now.
		
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If ppl saw how animals are killed, it would probably put them off for life.  i am not a veggie, but i actually can't stomach meat after seeing all the videos of slaughter lately, blood,  guts,  pain,  animals screaming,  animals panicking in the kill line,  the fear in their eyes,    the transportation,  I have dearly tried, but I do love animals, its muscle we are eating,  yukk.  When those burgers (home made of course with british beef) are sizzling on the bbq, I think I may have to be totally pissed to eat on.


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## Crazy horse lady (21 March 2013)

But I freely admit that the best of my fun, I owe it to horse and hound.


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## igglepop (21 March 2013)

From FB incase you care. 


Have you seen the posts on h&h forum about red lion? Hey Alec if you see this, the footage they showed was found to be acceptable, the rest is not, and will not be shown for legal reasons. we realise there is a need for horse slaughter, there is no need to do it cruely and in humanely . If you break the law be prepared to suffer the consequences. This man appears to think he is indistructable a HUGE pillar of the community, he's going down mate, going down............
Like ·  · Follow post · 23 hours ago

 Alec, if only you could see these posts on here, I'm sure word will get back to you. We, as a pointless group? Would rather horses be shot at home than endure freight to death, then the trauma of going through the dispatching process at turners. Also all the monies we have raised from our campaigning will go to Hillside.


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## Alec Swan (21 March 2013)

Crazy horse lady said:



			I agree, that would be THE worst thing ever to ban horse slaughter in the UK.  As much as I hate horse slaughter.
		
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Loathing the idea of horse slaughter,  whilst accepting the realities,  is a realistic and laudable view,  I think.  The slaughter of any animal within our food system is not a spectator sport.  Specifically with horses,  many will find the idea of watching it,  to be distressing,  and would be fearful of witnessing the act,  though many when they've plucked up the courage are often surprised at how peaceful it can be.

Alec.


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## elijahasgal (22 March 2013)

Whatever happens, as long as the animals are treated humanly, necessaties must be faced.
America Banned slaughter of horses.
Net result, horses were still slaughtered, just shipped to mexico and canada, on trips that lasted several days, without food and water
Mexico slaughter is EVIL
Canada, its little more than a production line, BUT a lot of the horses were totally wild
Also a chunk of the trade went secret and underground, so guess what? nobody knows how those horses were killed, what they endured, nor what was in their systems at the time.
They banned horses from being put down, unless it was totally essential. 
Guess what? More horses got shuffled onto the meat wagons, so their end was suffering for days
They banned horses from being shot (The quickest and kindest way going) What are people on ranches, or miles out on trails supposed to do in case of an accident that the worst happens?  Not legally allowed the quick dispatch, so in theory they should somehow get back to base and get a vet out into the wilds to euthanise the animal. How much suffering.

Personally I will if I can have my horses that need it put down at home. The people that take them to the Slaughterhouses, at least they know that the animals are not suffering, being passed from one hand to the other.


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## Moomin1 (22 March 2013)

Crazy horse lady said:



			If ppl saw how animals are killed, it would probably put them off for life.  i am not a veggie, but i actually can't stomach meat after seeing all the videos of slaughter lately, blood,  guts,  pain,  animals screaming,  animals panicking in the kill line,  the fear in their eyes,    the transportation,  I have dearly tried, but I do love animals, its muscle we are eating,  yukk.  When those burgers (home made of course with british beef) are sizzling on the bbq, I think I may have to be totally pissed to eat on.
		
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What an absolute load of scaremongering.

For starters, 'blood', 'guts' - what do you think will happen at a slaughterhouse?!!

Secondly, you have watched some videos, portraying horrendous things at a slaughterhouse.  Have you been to a reputable one, in person, and watched?

Thirdly, what on earth did you think you were eating?! Bone?!!


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## Beau jangles (22 March 2013)

They should regulate how many horses a stallion is allowed to produce a year ! Technology works too well with AI a stallion can still produce youngstock years after they are dead ! 
And surrogate mares for embryo transfer !

Put a cap on breeding that will control it a bit better , well in my dreams anyway


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## elijahasgal (22 March 2013)

@Beau Jangles
The only thing that you miss in capping the horses is this
The ones that they do AI and in particularly Embryo transfer are likely to be the ones that are valuable, competing and doing well, with good confirmation and bloodlines (Look at the costs involved) done by people who care.
What needs to be limited is things like excess breeding in the TB industry, where the wastage is high. natural and indiscriminate cover of semi feral horses, or just because people dont geld nor segregate.
What are the horses that are going there?


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## FionaM12 (22 March 2013)

Crazy horse lady said:



			So to summarise *murder your horse at home*!!!!
		
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Sorry but I simply can't take anyone's views seriously when they write a statement like that. 

The use of the word "murder" IMO is childish and an attempt to be emotive. Look up the definition. Murder is the unlawful killing of one human being by another. Euthanasing your horse is neither unlawful, nor is your horse human. It is *not* murder and it's pretty silly to suggest it. 

Also, the horses going for slaughter very often don't have "homes" in the way you suggest, or not ones who can afford to pts at home.  Many are unwanted or bred for the meat trade. Most of us who consider our horses as much-loved family members will obviously not send them to an abattoir but the majority destined for slaughter are not in such happy circumstances.


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## Crazy horse lady (22 March 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			What an absolute load of scaremongering.

For starters, 'blood', 'guts' - what do you think will happen at a slaughterhouse?!!

Secondly, you have watched some videos, portraying horrendous things at a slaughterhouse.  Have you been to a reputable one, in person, and watched?

Thirdly, what on earth did you think you were eating?! Bone?!!  

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I can assure you, I know exactly what goes on in a slaughter house.  I have seen animals processed humanely and inhumanly.  I do not eat bone.


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## Crazy horse lady (22 March 2013)

FionaM12 said:



			Sorry but I simply can't take anyone's views seriously when they write a statement like that. 

The use of the word "murder" IMO is childish and an attempt to be emotive. Look up the definition. Murder is the unlawful killing of one human being by another. Euthanasing your horse is neither unlawful, nor is your horse human. It is *not* murder and it's pretty silly to suggest it. 

Also, the horses going for slaughter very often don't have "homes" in the way you suggest, or not ones who can afford to pts at home.  Many are unwanted or bred for the meat trade. Most of us who consider our horses as much-loved family members will obviously not send them to an abattoir but the majority destined for slaughter are not in such happy circumstances.
		
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Any form of killing an animal to some is seen as murder.  But thank you for your correction on my description. 

I am very aware that a lot of these horses do not have homes.  Hence my comment that I would rather they are killed  with their heads in a bucket of feed and then sent to the hounds.  Rather than go through the horror of the abattoir. 

I also agree that some horses would, unfortualty, be better off dead than living a miserable existence.


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## Alec Swan (22 March 2013)

igglepop said:



			From FB incase you care. 


....... Hey Alec if you see this, the footage they showed was found to be acceptable, the rest is not, and will not be shown for legal reasons. we realise there is a need for horse slaughter, there is no need to do it cruely and in humanely . If you break the law be prepared to suffer the consequences. This man appears to think he is indistructable a HUGE pillar of the community, he's going down mate, going down............
Like ·  · Follow post · 23 hours ago

 Alec, if only you could see these posts on here, I'm sure word will get back to you. ........
		
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igglepop,  I have never at any time supported any form of lack of care for any animal facing slaughter.  Are you threatening me?

Alec.


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## Crazy horse lady (22 March 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			Loathing the idea of horse slaughter,  whilst accepting the realities,  is a realistic and laudable view,  I think.  The slaughter of any animal within our food system is not a spectator sport.  Specifically with horses,  many will find the idea of watching it,  to be distressing,  and would be fearful of witnessing the act,  though many when they've plucked up the courage are often surprised at how peaceful it can be.

Alec.
		
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I agree.  Hence my recommendation that horses should be shot swiftly and peacefully, as in the footage at Potters.  There are, unfortunately, some vile and law breaking practices at said Turners.


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## Bertieb123 (22 March 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			Loathing the idea of horse slaughter,  whilst accepting the realities,  is a realistic and laudable view,  I think.  The slaughter of any animal within our food system is not a spectator sport.  Specifically with horses,  many will find the idea of watching it,  to be distressing,  and would be fearful of witnessing the act,  though many when they've plucked up the courage are often surprised at how peaceful it can be.

Alec.
		
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Agree Alec, and while Alec and myself have  not always seen eye to eye I really don't think there is a need to be threatening and insulting on here, we all have our own views and it is a open forum, he has actually posted some good thoughts.

I do wonder myself how many times some who have posted have actually spent time in an abattoir? Alec is correct the process is usually a very peaceful one for any species, yes distressing to the untrained eye. Ok there have been problems that need addressing they are a minority, I know many slaughtermen and they are very compassionate, even not working in a abattoir the day their own stock go through and are also very saddened about recent events, please don't tar all with the same brush.

As for Hillside I take my hat off to them for highlighting issues, (have seen the latest horrendous farm footage), I do worry that these people may be putting themselves at risk if they caught filming and would the footage stand up in court as it was done by trespass? It is very frustrating that certain bodies don't seem to be acting (FSA, Trading Standards, Animal Health) worrying they all Government perhaps we should ask them why? Oh and as for RSPCA I would never knowingly give them a penny of mine!


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## amandap (22 March 2013)

Bertieb123 said:



			I really don't think there is a need to be threatening and insulting on here, we all have our own views and it is a open forum, he has actually posted some good thoughts.
		
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I agree. Imo Alec posts some very realistic thoughts.

I have never been to an abbatoir but I do think it should be, and often is, a calm process done well. As I said on another thread I couldn't do it myself but I do feel supportive of those who can and also have respect for the animals.


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## Crazy horse lady (22 March 2013)

Bertieb123 said:



			Agree Alec, and while Alec and myself have  not always seen eye to eye I really don't think there is a need to be threatening and insulting on here, we all have our own views and it is a open forum, he has actually posted some good thoughts.

I do wonder myself how many times some who have posted have actually spent time in an abattoir? Alec is correct the process is usually a very peaceful one for any species, yes distressing to the untrained eye. Ok there have been problems that need addressing they are a minority, I know many slaughtermen and they are very compassionate, even not working in a abattoir the day their own stock go through and are also very saddened about recent events, please don't tar all with the same brush.

As for Hillside I take my hat off to them for highlighting issues, (have seen the latest horrendous farm footage), I do worry that these people may be putting themselves at risk if they caught filming and would the footage stand up in court as it was done by trespass? It is very frustrating that certain bodies don't seem to be acting (FSA, Trading Standards, Animal Health) worrying they all Government perhaps we should ask them why? Oh and as for RSPCA I would never knowingly give them a penny of mine!
		
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AGREE.  

I think the quote above is not directed at Alec, but at Mr Turner.


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## Moomin1 (22 March 2013)

Crazy horse lady said:



			I can assure you, I know exactly what goes on in a slaughter house.  I have seen animals processed humanely and inhumanly.  I do not eat bone.
		
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So have I. In fact I have actually humanely slaughtered numerous cattle and sheep in an abbattoir myself. 

My comment was aimed at the fact that you seem to be including 'blood', 'guts' and the fact that the meat we eat is muscle, in the whole debate surrounding the INHUMANE methods used in the footage of Turners.  Why is the fact that there is an abundance of blood and guts raised?  It's like saying that it's shocking and puts you off going to hospital because operating theatres have lots of blood and guts in them!  Of course there is!! 

Also, you are making a judgement on eating meat based on one set of footage from one abbattoir.  

The two slaughterhouses I actually shot cattle in were very welfare minded and sympathetic.


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## guido16 (22 March 2013)

Alec,

Igglepop didn't write that, she copied it from a FB page for your benefit. I think the old "don't shoot the messenger"phrase applies. 

G


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## Natch (22 March 2013)

I have to ask again why the minority think that they can do better than the big horse welfare organisations?  Fundraise for them by all means,  sign the petitions etc, but if there is something you think is obvious that they aren't doing (like campaigning to close turners) then its worth asking whw or bhs why they aren't already campaigning for it before you do.  Chances are  there's a good reason that's worth listening to. I worry that well intentioned groups such add the Facebook one mentioned here actually do more harm than good when it comes to actually making a difference to horse welfare.


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## Crazy horse lady (23 March 2013)

Natch said:



			I have to ask again why the minority think that they can do better than the big horse welfare organisations?  Fundraise for them by all means,  sign the petitions etc, but if there is something you think is obvious that they aren't doing (like campaigning to close turners) then its worth asking whw or bhs why they aren't already campaigning for it before you do.  Chances are  there's a good reason that's worth listening to. I worry that well intentioned groups such add the Facebook one mentioned here actually do more harm than good when it comes to actually making a difference to horse welfare.
		
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Why do you think the "minority" think they can do better than the big horse welfare organisations?  No other bodies have done such a fantastic job as the welfare groups you have mentioned.  I think these smaller fb groups are doing a fantastic job to alert some ppl who are unaware of such other bigger organisations.  I for one had not heard of Hillside until January this year and this was brought to light by social media.  These smaller groups share a lot of information and hear a lot of cruelty cases (with appropriate evidence) that are then filtered to the said organisations.


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## Crazy horse lady (23 March 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			So have I. In fact I have actually humanely slaughtered numerous cattle and sheep in an abbattoir myself. 

My comment was aimed at the fact that you seem to be including 'blood', 'guts' and the fact that the meat we eat is muscle, in the whole debate surrounding the INHUMANE methods used in the footage of Turners.  Why is the fact that there is an abundance of blood and guts raised?  It's like saying that it's shocking and puts you off going to hospital because operating theatres have lots of blood and guts in them!  Of course there is!! 

Also, you are making a judgement on eating meat based on one set of footage from one abbattoir.  

The two slaughterhouses I actually shot cattle in were very welfare minded and sympathetic.
		
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I think my quote regarding blood guts, etc is totally justifiable after seeing the footage at Turners and any other abbatoirs footage.  Of course this is part and parcel of the process.  The hospital quote, I find, is totally irrelevant in the discussion about abbatoirs?  

My view to change my eating habits are based on the footage I have seen from the whole processing of the system from field to slaughter house.  Yes of course I am aware (as do others) that the meat does not magically appear on the supermarket shelves.  But having watched the whole process, the welfare of some animals, the fact that these animals have no choice but to go to slaughter and the fact that they panick like crazy (from the footage I have seen), then yes it has opened mine and a lot of other peoples eyes. 

I have called a local meat suppliers who assure me that they stay with their animals until the end, and say it is a peacful process, the animals are calm, i am happy about this. And so will buy meat from my farm shop and not from tesco.  

What I am saying is there is a way to do this humanely.  The welfare of animals, to the death.  see the footage on Hillside for their latested investigations.


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## Bertieb123 (23 March 2013)

Crazy horse lady said:



			I think my quote regarding blood guts, etc is totally justifiable after seeing the footage at Turners and any other abbatoirs footage.  Of course this is part and parcel of the process.  The hospital quote, I find, is totally irrelevant in the discussion about abbatoirs?  

My view to change my eating habits are based on the footage I have seen from the whole processing of the system from field to slaughter house.  Yes of course I am aware (as do others) that the meat does not magically appear on the supermarket shelves.  But having watched the whole process, the welfare of some animals, the fact that these animals have no choice but to go to slaughter and the fact that they panick like crazy (from the footage I have seen), then yes it has opened mine and a lot of other peoples eyes. 

I have called a local meat suppliers who assure me that they stay with their animals until the end, and say it is a peacful process, the animals are calm, i am happy about this. And so will buy meat from my farm shop and not from tesco.  

What I am saying is there is a way to do this humanely.  The welfare of animals, to the death.  see the footage on Hillside for their latested investigations.
		
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Crazy horse lady I agree with Moomin about the blood and guts thing the dramatization of the process by media and mis-informed people is what gives others a horrific idea of what goes on in an abattoir. You say having watched the process, the welfare of some animals, and the fact they have no choice but to go to slaughter and they panic like crazy from the FOOTAGE you have seen, perhaps ask your local meat suppliers to arrange a day for you to spend in an abattoir and see it for yourself in the flesh (pardon the pun). Most of the footage people are seeing on the net are focusing on the bad things (and yes it does need highlighting) it is not a true picture of MOST abattoirs.


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## Crazy horse lady (23 March 2013)

Bertieb123 said:



			Crazy horse lady I agree with Moomin about the blood and guts thing the dramatization of the process by media and mis-informed people is what gives others a horrific idea of what goes on in an abattoir. You say having watched the process, the welfare of some animals, and the fact they have no choice but to go to slaughter and they panic like crazy from the FOOTAGE you have seen, perhaps ask your local meat suppliers to arrange a day for you to spend in an abattoir and see it for yourself in the flesh (pardon the pun). Most of the footage people are seeing on the net are focusing on the bad things (and yes it does need highlighting) it is not a true picture of MOST abattoirs.
		
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There seems to be a huge issue with my grammatical format.  Perhaps I should have chose a different representation for my argument.  

I would never go to an abattoir.  Why would I?  I have seen enough evidence, yes the majority of it is of course the worst the media can find.  I have also seen decent abattoirs .


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## Crazy horse lady (23 March 2013)

Lets not forget the issue at hand here.  This company is breaking the law and must be prosecuted.


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## paisley (23 March 2013)

I would never go to an abattoir.  Why would I?  QUOTE]

And thats absolutely an understandable choice. 

However, those of us that have been to an abattoir (including the Red Lion), would tell you there is quite a difference between the sort of footage you have chosen to watch (good and bad) and actually witnessing the process first hand. 

You may feel you don't need to gain this sort of experience, and again, understandable, but for me personally, this makes your arguments or point of view about the matter slightly less valid.


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## Alec Swan (23 March 2013)

Crazy horse lady said:



			Lets not forget the issue at hand here.  This company is breaking the law and must be prosecuted.
		
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Were every Company,  in this Land,  who broke the law,  prosecuted,  then we'd be as bankrupt as the Cypriots. 

The word "Must",  shouldn't apply.  Within the industry,  as modest as it is,  we need a reinstatement of principles.  Shutting down 50% of a National and needed industry will result in far more equine suffering than having a monitored and correctly administered business.

Alec.


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## Natch (23 March 2013)

Is anybody bringing a prosecution against turners though? I am not sure that a court would recognise the evidence of the film,  as it was obtained illegally. It is quite possible that there is no legally valid evidence against them, and that a case for prosecution cannot be built. In which case we had better hope that turners are willing to talk to welfare organisations, and that quite possibly won't be hillside (because would you, in their shoes?!).

Crazy horse lady my comment above was made because somebody mentioned the group were calling for turners to be shut down. That's the type of action that isn't what the likes of whw are trying for, the reasons why already having been covers in this thread at length.


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## ILuvCowparsely (23 March 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			So have I. In fact I have actually humanely slaughtered numerous cattle and sheep in an abbattoir myself. 

.
		
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I for one would not boast online about that 

One  slaughter house I knew of................... every time they killed  you could tell they had killed as there was a pool of blood running down the gutter in the road.


You would never catch me working in an abattoir  doing any of the jobs.
  *shudders at the thought*

 I think CCTV should be in abattoirs and have signed the petition saying so.


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## Crazy horse lady (23 March 2013)

Natch said:



			Is anybody bringing a prosecution against turners though? I am not sure that a court would recognise the evidence of the film,  as it was obtained illegally. It is quite possible that there is no legally valid evidence against them, and that a case for prosecution cannot be built. In which case we had better hope that turners are willing to talk to welfare organisations, and that quite possibly won't be hillside (because would you, in their shoes?!).

Crazy horse lady my comment above was made because somebody mentioned the group were calling for turners to be shut down. That's the type of action that isn't what the likes of whw are trying for, the reasons why already having been covers in this thread at length.
		
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Turners should be shut down. Why should they not under the circumstances? They have broke the law, for years and years I believe, there is evidence to support this, sadly it may not be viable in a court of law.  If this is the case then hopefully their practises will be still further highlighted in the media to bring more evidence of this vile trade.   Further coverage and statements of the Irish slaughter trade has been produced, maybe this horse eat ha been illegally processed in the food chain, and operations still proceed? How is this?


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## Crazy horse lady (23 March 2013)

paisley said:



			I would never go to an abattoir.  Why would I?  QUOTE]

And thats absolutely an understandable choice. 

However, those of us that have been to an abattoir (including the Red Lion), would tell you there is quite a difference between the sort of footage you have chosen to watch (good and bad) and actually witnessing the process first hand. 

You may feel you don't need to gain this sort of experience, and again, understandable, but for me personally, this makes your arguments or point of view about the matter slightly less valid.
		
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Was it a "good" day that you went to the red lion? If I chose to not go to witness the killing by sight rather than from footage, what is the difference.  Like I said on previous posts I have seen good and bad.  Do you really think that by me seeing these killings in the flesh would make a difference? I do not feel the need to gain any visual findings to make my point any more valid.  I have seen how killings are done, good and bad.  turners are doing it BAD!


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## Crazy horse lady (23 March 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			Were every Company,  in this Land,  who broke the law,  prosecuted,  then we'd be as bankrupt as the Cypriots. 

The word "Must",  shouldn't apply.  Within the industry,  as modest as it is,  we need a reinstatement of principles.  Shutting down 50% of a National and needed industry will result in far more equine suffering than having a monitored and correctly administered business.

Alec.
		
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Really? 

I stand by my word, as this issue is close to my heart.  This company must be prosecuted! Are you saying this company supplies 50% of the nations equine slaughter? 

Perhaps to reduce the feed of horses to this vile trade would be to reduce the unnecessary breeding of horses, leading to a vast majority of the horses being abandoned and mistreated.  But this is another issue... 

Are you saying that horses passing through turners gates are correctly administrated?


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## Bertieb123 (23 March 2013)

Crazy horse lady said:



			Turners should be shut down. Why should they not under the circumstances? They have broke the law, for years and years I believe, there is evidence to support this, sadly it may not be viable in a court of law.  If this is the case then hopefully their practises will be still further highlighted in the media to bring more evidence of this vile trade.   Further coverage and statements of the Irish slaughter trade has been produced, maybe this horse eat ha been illegally processed in the food chain, and operations still proceed? How is this?
		
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So if Turners is shut down what do you think is going to happen to all the horses and ponies that usually go through places like this? are we going to rescue them all? or perhaps send them on a horrendous journey through Europe to their final destination?  WHW have had a campaign highlighting the horrors of this for a number of years. OR do we try and work with Turners and even open more welfare friendly Horse Abattoirs in the UK, if not believe me we will see more Spindles Farms and the like (one more exposed in Wales I understand). Look at the bigger picture.


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## Moomin1 (23 March 2013)

Leviathan said:



			I for one would not boast online about that 

One  slaughter house I knew of................... every time they killed  you could tell they had killed as there was a pool of blood running down the gutter in the road.


You would never catch me working in an abattoir  doing any of the jobs.
  *shudders at the thought*

 I think CCTV should be in abattoirs and have signed the petition saying so.
		
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What, you wouldn't boast about euthanasing animals humanely?!! 

I have shot animals inside and outside of a slaughterhouse.  I have injected animals to euthanase, via intravenous, intraperitoneal and intracardiac methods.  All of them are recognised and humane methods of euthanasia when done properly.  

So yes, I would boast that I have done that, because that's the way it should be done.

Not one of those animals which I shot looked panicked or frightened, as CCL seems to suggest every animal who enters a slaughterhouse does.

When done properly and humanely, it is much more distressing for the person doing it, believe me, than the animal in question.

Slaughterhouses should not be closed or banned.  They should be correctly monitored.


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## Bertieb123 (23 March 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			What, you wouldn't boast about euthanasing animals humanely?!! 

I have shot animals inside and outside of a slaughterhouse.  I have injected animals to euthanase, via intravenous, intraperitoneal and intracardiac methods.  All of them are recognised and humane methods of euthanasia when done properly.  

So yes, I would boast that I have done that, because that's the way it should be done.

Not one of those animals which I shot looked panicked or frightened, as CCL seems to suggest every animal who enters a slaughterhouse does.

When done properly and humanely, it is much more distressing for the person doing it, believe me, than the animal in question.

Slaughterhouses should not be closed or banned.  They should be correctly monitored.
		
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Moomin1 I wish there was a 'LIKE' button on that comment.


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## Natch (23 March 2013)

Crazy horse lady said:



			Turners should be shut down. Why should they not under the circumstances?
		
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Because we need one less equine slaughterhouse in the UK like we need a hole in the head. Because I don't believe (happy to be corrected) that there is any legally obtained evidence.

What we need, is the facility for every equine in the UK to have it's life ended artificially in an affordable and humane way. We NEED Turners, and we need it to be run well.




			They have broke the law, for years and years I believe, there is evidence to support this, sadly it may not be viable in a court of law.
		
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  Where is the evidence that they have been breaking the law for years and years 




			If this is the case then hopefully their practises will be still further highlighted in the media to bring more evidence of this vile trade.   Further coverage and statements of the Irish slaughter trade has been produced, maybe this horse eat ha been illegally processed in the food chain, and operations still proceed? How is this?
		
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Because without evidence collected LEGALLY Turners cannot be stopped. Nor can they be shut down because you or I _think _that horse meat slaughtered there has been illegally processed into the human food chain. There needs to be evidence, and the evidence needs to be legal. That's the way our justice system works.



Crazy horse lady said:



			I stand by my word, as this issue is close to my heart.  This company must be prosecuted!
		
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You're baying for blood without legally permissable evidence. They CANNOT be prosecuted without it.




			Are you saying this company supplies 50% of the nations equine slaughter?
		
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Others may well correct me but I believe that this is correct. I know of two slaughterhouses in England. One in Cheshire (Turners), one down south (Potters). Close Cheshire, the horses who would have had a short journey to Turners would be travelled for an additional what, 4+ hours and a doubled  waiting list. Can you see why some of us are so keen to keep Turners open, as long as their activities are monitored and brought up to standard if necessary?




			Perhaps to reduce the feed of horses to this vile trade would be to reduce the unnecessary breeding of horses, leading to a vast majority of the horses being abandoned and mistreated.  But this is another issue...
		
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It's all part of the same issue. There is a huge need to stop producing "unnecessary" horses.




			Are you saying that horses passing through turners gates are correctly administrated?
		
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We can't know on the basis of a few minutes of video evidence, if all the horses are slaughtered incorrectly, if it's 50/50, or if 99% are okay and the ones in the video are the unlucky 1%. NOT that I condone incorrect slaughter methods at all, but in an emotive subject I think it's best to stick to the concrete facts that we know. All we do know is that SOME horses, SOME of the time, are not slaughtered properly, and that the evidence gained is not able to be used in a court of law because it was gained illegally. I am not defending turners, I'm just trying to keep to facts. 

The bottom line is this:


Moomin1 said:



			Slaughterhouses should not be closed or banned.  They should be correctly monitored.
		
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## igglepop (23 March 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			igglepop,  I have never at any time supported any form of lack of care for any animal facing slaughter.  Are you threatening me?

Alec.
		
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Hi, not at all, i simply came across a post on fb for you and copied it for you incase you were interested, hence the reason me saying "From FB incase you care."  and why i edited the post to remove the name of the person so i could not get reported but stated in the reason for editing "Reason: remove fb persons name, pm me if you want the link to post.". I actually agree with what you are saying but thought you may want to reply to a post directed at you.


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## Alec Swan (24 March 2013)

igglepop,

thank you for your explanation.  I obviously misunderstood your words.  

Alec.


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## Crazy horse lady (24 March 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			What, you wouldn't boast about euthanasing animals humanely?!! 

I have shot animals inside and outside of a slaughterhouse.  I have injected animals to euthanase, via intravenous, intraperitoneal and intracardiac methods.  All of them are recognised and humane methods of euthanasia when done properly.  

So yes, I would boast that I have done that, because that's the way it should be done.

Not one of those animals which I shot looked panicked or frightened, as CCL seems to suggest every animal who enters a slaughterhouse does.

When done properly and humanely, it is much more distressing for the person doing it, believe me, than the animal in question.

Slaughterhouses should not be closed or banned.  They should be correctly monitored.
		
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Once again! I will reiterate, the horses that are killed in humanely (as in turners footage) do look panicked.  The horses that are killed humanely, as in your mention above, do not panick.  I ideally this is how it should be. 

You have my sympathy for doing such an awful job.


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## Crazy horse lady (24 March 2013)

Natch said:



			Because we need one less equine slaughterhouse in the UK like we need a hole in the head. Because I don't believe (happy to be corrected) that there is any legally obtained evidence.

What we need, is the facility for every equine in the UK to have it's life ended artificially in an affordable and humane way. We NEED Turners, and we need it to be run well.

  Where is the evidence that they have been breaking the law for years and years 



Because without evidence collected LEGALLY Turners cannot be stopped. Nor can they be shut down because you or I _think _that horse meat slaughtered there has been illegally processed into the human food chain. There needs to be evidence, and the evidence needs to be legal. That's the way our justice system works.



You're baying for blood without legally permissable evidence. They CANNOT be prosecuted without it.



Others may well correct me but I believe that this is correct. I know of two slaughterhouses in England. One in Cheshire (Turners), one down south (Potters). Close Cheshire, the horses who would have had a short journey to Turners would be travelled for an additional what, 4+ hours and a doubled  waiting list. Can you see why some of us are so keen to keep Turners open, as long as their activities are monitored and brought up to standard if necessary?



It's all part of the same issue. There is a huge need to stop producing "unnecessary" horses.



We can't know on the basis of a few minutes of video evidence, if all the horses are slaughtered incorrectly, if it's 50/50, or if 99% are okay and the ones in the video are the unlucky 1%. NOT that I condone incorrect slaughter methods at all, but in an emotive subject I think it's best to stick to the concrete facts that we know. All we do know is that SOME horses, SOME of the time, are not slaughtered properly, and that the evidence gained is not able to be used in a court of law because it was gained illegally. I am not defending turners, I'm just trying to keep to facts. 

The bottom line is this:
		
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Agree and disagree.


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## Natch (24 March 2013)

So if turners does get shut down,  what do you think is going to happen to the horses who would otherwise have been sent there?


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## Crazy horse lady (24 March 2013)

Natch said:



			So if turners does get shut down,  what do you think is going to happen to the horses who would otherwise have been sent there?
		
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I believe Turner purposely goes to market to buy horses for meat.  The ferral ones, could they not be shot by the hounds, they do it for free, and then take the bodies for meat for the hounds.  The pets, again shoot them at home?  give them to the hounds.  And I know what you are going to say, there are thousands of unwanted horses.  This issue/discussion could go round and round for ever.


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## Amymay (24 March 2013)

Hounds with guns. Now there's a thought.


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## Patterdale (24 March 2013)

How many hounds do you think there are???? They'd be super obese on your plan....

Hunts already go out and PTS horses for the hounds. However it would be neither fair nor practical to expect them to do this for free! The hunts wouldn't last very long financially if that happened. 

Also, there is no such thing as a 'feral' horse. They all have owners. 

The question of 'where would the horses go instead of slaughter?' Has been asked on FB many times, but always just results in a ban for the asker 

The truth is that more would be either exported or left to die in the field, neither if which are fair for the horse.


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## Alec Swan (24 March 2013)

Crazy horse lady said:



			I believe Turner purposely goes to market to buy horses for meat.  The ferral ones, could they not be shot by the hounds, they do it for free, and then take the bodies for meat for the hounds.  The pets, again shoot them at home?  give them to the hounds.  And I know what you are going to say, there are thousands of unwanted horses.  *This issue/discussion could go round and round for ever*.
		
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Yes,  you're right,  it could!!  

The problem with presenting horses to the kennels is that because of our new found,  righteous and protective world,  no part of the animal is to be buried.  There are perceived,  though minimal,  risks of undesirable elements of the carcass,  contaminating our world.  It's absolute nonsense,  of course,  and it's the result of our passion for clinging to ever greater legislation which whilst theoretically protecting us,  in reality creates an ever increasing burden.  Much of this nonsense originates from the EU directives which by and large the French ignore,  and we seem to welcome.

I've rather "run-on"! but the result of a non burying policy is that all waste now has to be incinerated at and by licensed premises,  and because of cost of installation,  and the massive costs of diesel,  few kennels can afford such luxury.

Every abattoir in the country has buyers who attend markets to source sheep and cattle.  Why should Turners be any different?  Why shouldn't horses meet with the same end as do our other farmed livestock?

Alec.


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## amandap (24 March 2013)

Surely it's better for horses to be slaughtered here than travel to the continent live? 
With the amount of waste horses in UK surely slaughter is a necessity. For me the way to go is get all slaughter improved, humane and respectful. 

If slaughter was banned what on earth would happen to the thousands of waste race, competition and domestic horses that no one wants? 

Ps. They can't all live in well meaning peoples living rooms! lol We would end up with an unimaginable welfare problem.

Imho, until breeding is restrained there is no choice but slaughter those unwanted.


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## Amymay (24 March 2013)

Horses lined up to be shot and processed by the hunt.

Horses lined up to be shot and processed by Turners.

The difference is???


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## Crazy horse lady (24 March 2013)

Patterdale said:



			How many hounds do you think there are???? They'd be super obese on your plan....

Hunts already go out and PTS horses for the hounds. However it would be neither fair nor practical to expect them to do this for free! The hunts wouldn't last very long financially if that happened. 

Also, there is no such thing as a 'feral' horse. They all have owners. 

The question of 'where would the horses go instead of slaughter?' Has been asked on FB many times, but always just results in a ban for the asker 

The truth is that more would be either exported or left to die in the field, neither if which are fair for the horse.
		
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I have seen quite a few ferral horses and ponies lately.  This "description" has been quoted on numerous occasions on here.

How about ppl geld the stallions of these horses that are left in fields to stop the over breeding.


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## Crazy horse lady (24 March 2013)

Ask yourself this, where are the horses going to go for slaughter, when Turners does shut down, when he gets the planning permission for his 5 residential dwellings?  There are 7 other horse slaughter houses in the UK, who probably do a better job than this place.


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## Amaranta (24 March 2013)

Natch said:



			So if turners does get shut down,  what do you think is going to happen to the horses who would otherwise have been sent there?
		
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Oh don't be silly Natch, obviously the mad lounge woman would buy them all


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## Amaranta (24 March 2013)

Crazy horse lady said:



			I believe Turner purposely goes to market to buy horses for meat.  The ferral ones, could they not be shot by the hounds, they do it for free, and then take the bodies for meat for the hounds.  The pets, again shoot them at home?  give them to the hounds.  And I know what you are going to say, there are thousands of unwanted horses.  This issue/discussion could go round and round for ever.
		
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Sorry but I assume you mean the Hunt?  They no longer do it for free since the hunt ban you have to pay to have them come out, around here it is £200 but cheaper than the vet who is £600 but that does include disposal costs.

I sincerely think you should have the correct facts at your fingertips otherwise you cannot actually argue your case.

I am another who does not want to see abattoirs go, but I do think this particular abattoir should be fined/prosecuted and more effort made to ensure that welfare conditions are maintained.


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## Amaranta (24 March 2013)

Crazy horse lady said:



			Ask yourself this, where are the horses going to go for slaughter, when Turners does shut down, when he gets the planning permission for his 5 residential dwellings?  There are 7 other horse slaughter houses in the UK, who probably do a better job than this place.
		
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Just correcting your facts again, if Turners close there are only 2 other slaughterhouses licensed to slaughter horses, Potters is one and I am unsure as to the other.

ETA:  Oh and Potters already have a waiting list, that is WITH the Red Lion open.


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## FionaM12 (24 March 2013)

Crazy horse lady said:



			How about ppl geld the stallions of these horses that are left in fields to stop the over breeding.
		
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What "ppl" do you propose do that? 

The owners of such horses as I think you mean (neglected, possibly fly grazing) clearly don't want to because of the cost and the fact they *want* them to have foals fro them to sell.

So are you suggesting people who don't own them round them up and geld them without the owners consent?  How would that work?


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## Bertieb123 (24 March 2013)

Amaranta said:



			Just correcting your facts again, if Turners close there are only 2 other slaughterhouses licensed to slaughter horses, Potters is one and I am unsure as to the other.

ETA:  Oh and Potters already have a waiting list, that is WITH the Red Lion open.
		
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The other active one is Peter Boddy in West Yorkshire and there are a couple of others that are licenced to Slaughter Horses but not sure if they active one is in Devon and the other is in Chester.

WE NEED MORE! PROPERLY REGULATED!


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## Crazy horse lady (24 March 2013)

Amaranta said:



			Sorry but I assume you mean the Hunt?  They no longer do it for free since the hunt ban you have to pay to have them come out, around here it is £200 but cheaper than the vet who is £600 but that does include disposal costs.

I sincerely think you should have the correct facts at your fingertips otherwise you cannot actually argue your case.

I am another who does not want to see abattoirs go, but I do think this particular abattoir should be fined/prosecuted and more effort made to ensure that welfare conditions are maintained.
		
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Yes I do mean the hunt.  

I will endeavour to get my correct facts for future reference. 

I do not want to see horse abattoirs abolished.   I do want Turners to be prosecuted and all other horse slaughter houses (and other slaughter houses) to have CCTV installed.


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## Crazy horse lady (24 March 2013)

Bertieb123 said:



			The other active one is Peter Boddy in West Yorkshire and there are a couple of others that are licenced to Slaughter Horses but not sure if they active one is in Devon and the other is in Chester.

WE NEED MORE! PROPERLY REGULATED!
		
Click to expand...

Yes we do.


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## Crazy horse lady (24 March 2013)

amymay said:



			Hounds with guns. Now there's a thought.
		
Click to expand...

What ever floats your boat.


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## Amaranta (24 March 2013)

Bertieb123 said:



			The other active one is Peter Boddy in West Yorkshire and there are a couple of others that are licenced to Slaughter Horses but not sure if they active one is in Devon and the other is in Chester.

WE NEED MORE! PROPERLY REGULATED!
		
Click to expand...

Thanks, it appears the other two are not active as, looking at the FSA figures they only mention 3.

AMEN to your last paragraph


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## Crazy horse lady (24 March 2013)

FionaM12 said:



			What "ppl" do you propose do that? 

The owners of such horses as I think you mean (neglected, possibly fly grazing) clearly don't want to because of the cost and the fact they *want* them to have foals fro them to sell.

So are you suggesting people who don't own them round them up and geld them without the owners consent?  How would that work? 

Click to expand...

I am aware that this practice is rife.  And I am aware that ppl breed, with intent to purposely sell for horse meat.    I am making my point to the ppl who have acres of land with horses on that they think they are looking after when in fact they are too daft to know they are causing more harm than good.  As in the recent neglect case of Spindles farm, also the two ladies from Crediton in Devon, also the owners f Ebony and Lily, also the man up the road from me who breeds from a sorry state of mares, also the poor gypsy vanners, also etcetera etcetera etcetera.


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## Crazy horse lady (24 March 2013)

Amaranta said:



			Thanks, it appears the other two are not active as, looking at the FSA figures they only mention 3.

AMEN to your last paragraph
		
Click to expand...


Congratulations to you, you are right.  It appears there are only 3 licensed  to kill horses, one for each end of the country. 

Turners - Nantwich. 
Potters - Devon.  
Peter Boddy - West Yorkshire.


However there may be a couple of other who do it off the wagon, allegedly.


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## Crazy horse lady (24 March 2013)

Amaranta said:



			Thanks, it appears the other two are not active as, looking at the FSA figures they only mention 3.

AMEN to your last paragraph
		
Click to expand...


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## Crazy horse lady (24 March 2013)

Bertieb123 said:



			The other active one is Peter Boddy in West Yorkshire and there are a couple of others that are licenced to Slaughter Horses but not sure if they active one is in Devon and the other is in Chester.

WE NEED MORE! PROPERLY REGULATED!
		
Click to expand...

We do need properly regulated horse slaughter houses.


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## Crazy horse lady (24 March 2013)

P.S. if you are a Cheshire lass like me, you will have heard of the grim goings on at Turners.  These stories are years old.  Hence the tip off to Hillside to go through the trouble of putting the cameras in there.  Even if the place is not shut down at least it may educate some ppl into the reality of horse slaughter.  And help them understand there is an alternative to the "knackers yard".


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## Crazy horse lady (24 March 2013)

And by grim I mean the beatings, the cruelty, the mistreatment, the alleged bets and cruel dares on the horses.


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## Bertieb123 (24 March 2013)

Tax&Giz NOT SEEN ANYONE ON HERE SAY THEY CONDONE ANY WEFARE BREECHES  JUST A HEALTHY DISSCUSSION WHERE PEOPLE HAVE AIRED THEIR VIEWS, AND SUGGESTED WAY'S IF TURNERS STAYS OPEN TO SEE THAT THE ISSUES HIGHLIGHTED DON'T HAPPEN AGAIN! OK MOST DON'T KNOW TURNERS ARE A NASTY PIECE OF WORK BUT THEY ARE STILL OPERATING!

THE ONLY THING I HAVE SEEN PEOPLE FOR AND PEOPLE AGAINST IS MORE WELL RUN AND REGULATED HORSE ABATTOIRS. NOT HAVE I EVER SEEN ANYONE CONDONE ABUSE OF ANY ANIMAL


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## Patterdale (24 March 2013)

Tax & Giz, NO ONE on here has said they condone the welfare breeches. 

However you will find that people on here, along with all those truly concerned about animal welfare, see slaughterhouses as a necessary evil and DO NOT want to see horse slaughter banned outright.


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## Bertieb123 (24 March 2013)

tax&giz said:



			p.s you are so wrong about there only being 3 lol 
why not do you research before posting crap ?
google can be a good tool if you have the brain to use it !!
for weeks i have come across idiots who comment on assumptions not facts.
you lot would be happy to watch that footage then take your horses to this dump ?
well did you no that footage was over 80 days .. 120 hrs of film ?
not the 3 mins shown on sky .. 
after the fsa investigation it will show how wrong you all are .. 
absolutely  clueless !! why not go muck out, or do something constructive with your time ? 
instead of keyboard warriors who talk rubbish 


Click to expand...

I DO ACTUALLY KNOW WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT AND DONT NEED TO GOOGLE FACTS.

I HAVE SAID NUMEROUS TIMES IN PAST POSTS THE FSA ARE INVESTIGATING,AND DEFENDED OFFICIALS IN THESE PLACES,AND SAID WAIT TO SEE THE OUTCOME OF THE INVESTIGATION SO PERHAPS YOU SHOULD READ UP ON EVERYONES PAST POSTS ON THE MATTER BEFORE YOU START RANTING ON.

I HAVE DONE ALL MY MUCKING OUT HORSES AND OTHER LIVESTOCK, CLEANED MY HOUSE, AND COOKED DINNER (FROM SCRATCH)! CANNOT GET IN THE GARDEN OR WASH THE CAR BECAUSE OF SNOW SO INSTEAD I AM LOOKING AT AND TALKING RUBBISH!


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## FionaM12 (24 March 2013)

deleted


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## Amaranta (24 March 2013)

tax&giz said:



			p.s you are so wrong about there only being 3 lol 
why not do you research before posting crap ?

Right back at ya - check out the FSA figures like your friend did
google can be a good tool if you have the brain to use it !!
for weeks i have come across idiots who comment on assumptions not facts.
see my previous comments
you lot would be happy to watch that footage then take your horses to this dump ?
well did you no that footage was over 80 days .. 120 hrs of film ?
not the 3 mins shown on sky .. 
after the fsa investigation it will show how wrong you all are .. 
absolutely  clueless !! why not go muck out, or do something constructive with your time ? 
instead of keyboard warriors who talk rubbish 


Click to expand...

Not sure why you should think anyone on here condones the clear welfare breeches committed by Turners?  Not one person has said they are right and I have actually stated I want to see them prosecuted for them so your rant has confused me 

What people are actually saying is that there is a need for these slaughterhouses, but they MUST be highly regulated and have CCTV installed.

I am unsure how that makes us pro slaughter so would appreciate your comments on how you have come to this conclusion.

Thank you for your input


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## Crazy horse lady (24 March 2013)

Amaranta said:



Not sure why you should think anyone on here condones the clear welfare breeches committed by Turners?  Not one person has said they are right and I have actually stated I want to see them prosecuted for them so your rant has confused me 

What people are actually saying is that there is a need for these slaughterhouses, but they MUST be highly regulated and have CCTV installed.

I am unsure how that makes us pro slaughter so would appreciate your comments on how you have come to this conclusion.

Thank you for your input 

Click to expand...

I heart google and social networking for information, oh and the media, and word of mouth, or hear say.  

Did you know about all the cruelty stuff?  That is what is so frustrating.....

Please don't write in red, its such an aggressive colour.


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## Bertieb123 (24 March 2013)

Crazy horse lady and Tax&giz are you the same person?


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## Amymay (24 March 2013)

Lovely post amaranta.


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## guido16 (24 March 2013)

Thay are not the same person, they are two people who want turners shut down. Won't name names as TFC might get a bit stroppy with me....

But, one of you means well, one of you is a bit potty!


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## Crazy horse lady (24 March 2013)

Bertieb123 said:



			Crazy horse lady and Tax&giz are you the same person?
		
Click to expand...

LOL, no.


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## Crazy horse lady (24 March 2013)

guido16 said:



			Thay are not the same person, they are two people who want turners shut down. Won't name names as TFC might get a bit stroppy with me....

But, one of you means well, one of you is a bit potty!
		
Click to expand...

Sorry I am not familiar with keyboard slang, what dies FTC mean?


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## Crazy horse lady (24 March 2013)

We are all on the same side here! We all want the best for horses


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## Alec Swan (24 March 2013)

tax&giz said:



			p.s you are so wrong about there only being 3 lol 
why not do you research before posting crap ?
google can be a good tool if you have the brain to use it !!
for weeks i have come across idiots who comment on assumptions not facts.
you lot would be happy to watch that footage then take your horses to this dump ?
well did you no that footage was over 80 days .. 120 hrs of film ?
not the 3 mins shown on sky .. 
after the fsa investigation it will show how wrong you all are .. 
absolutely  clueless !! why not go muck out, or do something constructive with your time ? 
instead of keyboard warriors who talk rubbish 


Click to expand...

Join in with a discussion,  by all means,  but why be so aggressive? 

The only difference that I can see,  between stupidity and genius,  is that stupidity has no bounds,  and you are currently proving me right.

Take a deep breath,  calm down,  provide the evidence to support your statements,  and there are those on here who may listen to you.

Alec.


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## Amaranta (24 March 2013)

Crazy horse lady said:



			I heart google and social networking for information, oh and the media, and word of mouth, or hear say.  

Did you know about all the cruelty stuff?  That is what is so frustrating.....

Please don't write in red, its such an aggressive colour.
		
Click to expand...

Ahh bless you, so sorry that you find red aggressive, it was not meant to be, I used it to differentiate between my replies and the original posters statements, common practice - is blue better for you?


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## Alec Swan (24 March 2013)

Crazy horse lady said:



			Sorry I am not familiar with keyboard slang, what dies FTC mean?
		
Click to expand...

The FTC (TFC) was The FatControlleR,  a mostly benign and reasonable man who administered to us,  by ensuring reasonable behaviour.  He also had a sense of humour!! 

Alec.


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## Crazy horse lady (24 March 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			The FTC (TFC) was The FatControlleR,  a mostly benign and reasonable man who administered to us,  by ensuring reasonable behaviour.  He also had a sense of humour!! 

Alec.
		
Click to expand...

Oh......

Proud of my reasonable behaviour.


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## Crazy horse lady (24 March 2013)

Amaranta said:



Ahh bless you, so sorry that you find red aggressive, it was not meant to be, I used it to differentiate between my replies and the original posters statements, common practice - is blue better for you?

Click to expand...

Uuummm I suppose so.


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## Crazy horse lady (24 March 2013)

Amaranta said:



Not sure why you should think anyone on here condones the clear welfare breeches committed by Turners?  Not one person has said they are right and I have actually stated I want to see them prosecuted for them so your rant has confused me 

What people are actually saying is that there is a need for these slaughterhouses, but they MUST be highly regulated and have CCTV installed.

I am unsure how that makes us pro slaughter so would appreciate your comments on how you have come to this conclusion.

Thank you for your input 

Click to expand...

Wondering if you should change your name to "I'm a ranter".   Ha ha do you like that one Alec, hhhuuuummmm.


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## guido16 (24 March 2013)

You really are crazy. Aren't you. Mind you, you have proven that on the FB page.


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## Crazy horse lady (24 March 2013)

guido16 said:



			You really are crazy. Aren't you. Mind you, you have proven that on the FB page.
		
Click to expand...

Yes I really am, hence my name.  Clever aren't you seeing that I am on a different forum as well as this.  It is no secret you know.  One is entitled to go on any forum they chose.  

And just so you know I am not on THE original mad horse savers forum.  I do not agree with what they stand for.

Whats with all the cyber nit picking?


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## guido16 (24 March 2013)

Who mentioned forums? I said FB, not forums. 

But thanks for the info.


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## Crazy horse lady (24 March 2013)

guido16 said:



			Who mentioned forums? I said FB, not forums. 

But thanks for the info.
		
Click to expand...

FB, forums......... any social media sites.....

You are welcome..


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## guido16 (24 March 2013)

Why thank you. 

Crack on.


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## Amaranta (24 March 2013)

Crazy horse lady said:



			Wondering if you should change your name to "I'm a ranter".   Ha ha do you like that one Alec, hhhuuuummmm.
		
Click to expand...

You really are an idiot, I don't debate with idiots, I prefer to debate with someone who is in possession of the facts which you clearly are not.  Now off you go back to your facebook page, run along now.


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## Natch (24 March 2013)

Crazy horse lady said:



			I believe Turner purposely goes to market to buy horses for meat.  The ferral ones, could they not be shot by the hounds, they do it for free, and then take the bodies for meat for the hounds.  The pets, again shoot them at home?  give them to the hounds.  And I know what you are going to say, there are thousands of unwanted horses.  This issue/discussion could go round and round for ever.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, I would say that  and I would also say that the hunt incurs a cost. Sadly (tragically) some people do not have the means to pay. Others are unwilling to, because they can _get _paid by the slaughterhouse, and they would travel to other parts of the country or abroad to seek payment. 



Amaranta said:



			Oh don't be silly Natch, obviously the mad lounge woman would buy them all
		
Click to expand...

Oh DUUUH I forgot about her and her endless space and funds 



tax&giz said:



			p.s you are so wrong about there only being 3 lol 
*why not do you research before posting crap ?*
google can be a good tool if you have the brain to use it !!
for weeks i have come across idiots who comment on assumptions not facts.
*you lot would be happy to watch that footage then take your horses to this dump ?*
well did you no that footage was over 80 days .. 120 hrs of film ?
not the 3 mins shown on sky .. 
after the fsa investigation it will show how wrong you all are .. 
absolutely  clueless !! why not go muck out, or do something constructive with your time ? 
instead of keyboard warriors who talk rubbish 


Click to expand...

What type of research did you do before posting that us lot would be happy to take our horses there?

The people involved in this discussion are not the clients of slaughterhouses.

120 hours of video and only 3 minutes made public? Perhaps 117 minutes were not in breach of any regulations. Perhaps they were, _we dont know_ because we haven't seen it.


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## Moomin1 (24 March 2013)

You have my sympathy for doing such an awful job.[/QUOTE]

I don't do an awful job.  I ensure that animals do not suffer.  Part of that job involves putting them to sleep to end their suffering by either shooting them or injecting them.  For me, that's a wonderful job.  

Out of interest, what are you actively doing to try and change things about the situation you feel so passionately about?  I assume that you extend these efforts to cattle/sheep/pig slaughterhouses also?



Crazy horse lady said:



			P.S. if you are a Cheshire lass like me, you will have heard of the grim goings on at Turners.  These stories are years old.  Hence the tip off to Hillside to go through the trouble of putting the cameras in there.  Even if the place is not shut down at least it may educate some ppl into the reality of horse slaughter.  And help them understand there is an alternative to the "knackers yard".
		
Click to expand...

What is the reality of horse slaughter?


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## Amymay (25 March 2013)

Crazy horse lady said:



			Even if the place is not shut down at least it may educate some ppl into the reality of horse slaughter.  And help them understand there is an alternative to the "knackers yard".
		
Click to expand...

And the alternative is


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## Amaranta (25 March 2013)

amymay said:



			And the alternative is

Click to expand...


CHL seems to think that everyone will have their horses pts at home by the vet or the hunt. she also seems to think that people do not know that these two methods exist.

Bit insulting really


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## Amymay (25 March 2013)

Amaranta said:



			CHL seems to think that everyone will have their horses pts at home by the vet or the hunt. she also seems to think that people do not know that these two methods exist.
		
Click to expand...

I had read that earlier -  but hadn't taken it as a serious proposal, tbh.


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## Maesfen (25 March 2013)

Amaranta said:



			CHL seems to think that everyone will have their horses pts at home by the vet or the hunt. she also seems to think that people do not know that these two methods exist.

Bit insulting really
		
Click to expand...

Well, I for one wish everyone would have their horses put down at home, I hate to think of their last journeys and situation in an abattoir.

Don't forget how many people come on here not knowing anything about put down methods or availability so I don't see it as insulting as there are far too many now that take on horses that shouldn't even look after a spider; there are an awful lot of ignorant owners about now, that can't be disputed, more's the pity.


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## FionaM12 (25 March 2013)

Amaranta said:



			CHL seems to think that everyone will have their horses pts at home by the vet or the hunt. she also seems to think that people do not know that these two methods exist.

Bit insulting really
		
Click to expand...

No, she doesn't say we should pts sleep at home, she says we should "murder" them at home. 



Crazy horse lady said:



			So to summarise murder your horse at home!!!!
		
Click to expand...


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## Crazy horse lady (25 March 2013)

Amaranta said:



			You really are an idiot, I don't debate with idiots, I prefer to debate with someone who is in possession of the facts which you clearly are not.  Now off you go back to your facebook page, run along now.
		
Click to expand...


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## Crazy horse lady (25 March 2013)

Amaranta said:



			You really are an idiot, I don't debate with idiots, I prefer to debate with someone who is in possession of the facts which you clearly are not.  Now off you go back to your facebook page, run along now.
		
Click to expand...


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## wiz07 (25 March 2013)

char3479 said:



			I can't help but think their future lies on a plate.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry but this made me chuckle!  I am sure there was no pun intended!  

I do however completely agree with the rest of your post! x


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## Crazy horse lady (25 March 2013)

Maesfen said:



			Well, I for one wish everyone would have their horses put down at home, I hate to think of their last journeys and situation in an abattoir.

Don't forget how many people come on here not knowing anything about put down methods or availability so I don't see it as insulting as there are far too many now that take on horses that shouldn't even look after a spider; there are an awful lot of ignorant owners about now, that can't be disputed, more's the pity.
		
Click to expand...

THank you....I know a lot of chaps think Im silly, but do you know what I don't really care.  I have learnt so much from this horse meat and Turners scandal.  And I am also aware that some people do not realise the issues, the breaches of welfare, the cruelty, the alternatives of disposing of a horse, the breaking of the law.  And if my bombastic silly rants alert a few people to these issues, then I am very happy with that.


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## Crazy horse lady (25 March 2013)

Amaranta said:



			You really are an idiot, I don't debate with idiots, I prefer to debate with someone who is in possession of the facts which you clearly are not.  Now off you go back to your facebook page, run along now.
		
Click to expand...

I am not an idiot, you are very insulting and extremely rude.


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## Amaranta (25 March 2013)

Crazy horse lady said:



			I am not an idiot, you are very insulting and extremely rude.  

Click to expand...

You took my perfectly polite post and assumed I was being rude, at that time I was not, the red writing was merely to distinguish between my replies to the original posters statements not surprising I was snarky to you under the circumstances.

If you don't like reactions please don't post to provoke them.


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## Crazy horse lady (25 March 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			You have my sympathy for doing such an awful job.
		
Click to expand...

I don't do an awful job.  I ensure that animals do not suffer.  Part of that job involves putting them to sleep to end their suffering by either shooting them or injecting them.  For me, that's a wonderful job.  

Out of interest, what are you actively doing to try and change things about the situation you feel so passionately about?  I assume that you extend these efforts to cattle/sheep/pig slaughterhouses also?



What is the reality of horse slaughter?[/QUOTE]

My quote is directed at your job in terms of ending a life, to me that would be a hard thing to do.  And if you are putting the animal down for reasons of suffering then that is absolutely the right thing to do.  

I am passionate about the welfare of all animals bred for the table, ie cows, sheep, etc.  I believe they should have a healthy and outdoor rearing, with as less drug intervention as possible, ie growth hormones.  They should have  a slaughter at a local abattoir, even better in a mobile abattoir (Abachem Engineering).  So as to reduce mileage also less stress for the animals.  There should be CCTV to monitor the process, to hopefully reduce the abuse on these animals (as per footage I have seen).  

I would like people to buy british products and not rubbish from abroad, we have thousands of sheep in the UK why import from NZ.

I would like to eat a duck that has swam in a pond.

I would like all the ducks and pheasant that are shot in the season to be eaten in the UK instead of abroad.    

I would like people to realise its not that more expensive to buy from a local butchers, you know what you are eating.  And it supports our local economy.

I would like people to realise what they are actually eating, and what is in a stock cube, jelly sweets.  Google it. NO wonder some people get tummy ache eating certain things. I also wonder if people know what they are actually feeding their dogs? dried or wet dog food.  I make my own dog food.....

I want people to realise how lazy as a society we have become and dependant on supermarkets.

I want Turners to be shut and all operations suspended until all investigations have finalised.  I want them to be prosecuted for the years of abuse and cruelty.

I want a regulated and monitored, correct horse slaughter system.  

I want people to realise that its very expensive to own a horse and a lot of responsibility.  And at the end of its day, put it to sleep at home.

I want people let people know there are other ways of getting rid of your horse rather than send it to an abattoir.

I want people to stop breeding for meat.

I want the gangs in Ireland, Russia and Eastern Europe to stop their cruelty and vile meat trade.  I want the Russians to realise that you can actually kill a horse with one bullet (if you are a good shot) instead of repeatedly smacking it in the head with an axe.  I want the horses to be slaughtered in Europe on their door steps, instead of transported thousands of miles to be killed, just because the Italians like their meat to be fresh and bloody not frozen.

I want ports on the East cost to be monitored for export of our beautiful native ponies.  Which are bought by the French and Germans pretending to be bought for riding schools.  And they are actually being slaughtered and mixed in with our food. 

I would like to see our native ponies round up and some of them gelded.  Perhaps our v rich celabs could pay for this?

I would also like a Bayliner 642 Cuddy.......


----------



## Crazy horse lady (25 March 2013)

Natch said:



			Yes, I would say that  and I would also say that the hunt incurs a cost. Sadly (tragically) some people do not have the means to pay. Others are unwilling to, because they can _get _paid by the slaughterhouse, and they would travel to other parts of the country or abroad to seek payment. 



Oh DUUUH I forgot about her and her endless space and funds 



What type of research did you do before posting that us lot would be happy to take our horses there?

The people involved in this discussion are not the clients of slaughterhouses.

120 hours of video and only 3 minutes made public? Perhaps 117 minutes were not in breach of any regulations. Perhaps they were, _we dont know_ because we haven't seen it.
		
Click to expand...

To me and a lot of people its quite simple, you have a horse, its going to cost a lot of money to end its life, you save up for that day.  Would you send a faithful old dog to its death if their was a doggy equivalent of Turners?


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## Amymay (25 March 2013)

Crazy horse lady said:



			To me and a lot of people its quite simple, you have a horse, its going to cost a lot of money to end its life, you save up for that day.  Would you send a faithful old dog to its death if their was a doggy equivalent of Turners?
		
Click to expand...

I don't think anyone would disagree with you at all.

But as has been said countless times, you have to address the over breeding before you'll address stock going to slaughter.


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## Amaranta (25 March 2013)

Crazy horse lady said:



			I don't do an awful job.  I ensure that animals do not suffer.  Part of that job involves putting them to sleep to end their suffering by either shooting them or injecting them.  For me, that's a wonderful job.  

Out of interest, what are you actively doing to try and change things about the situation you feel so passionately about?  I assume that you extend these efforts to cattle/sheep/pig slaughterhouses also?



What is the reality of horse slaughter?
		
Click to expand...

My quote is directed at your job in terms of ending a life, to me that would be a hard thing to do.  And if you are putting the animal down for reasons of suffering then that is absolutely the right thing to do.  

I am passionate about the welfare of all animals bred for the table, ie cows, sheep, etc.  I believe they should have a healthy and outdoor rearing, with as less drug intervention as possible, ie growth hormones.  They should have  a slaughter at a local abattoir, even better in a mobile abattoir (Abachem Engineering).  So as to reduce mileage also less stress for the animals.  There should be CCTV to monitor the process, to hopefully reduce the abuse on these animals (as per footage I have seen).  

I would like people to buy british products and not rubbish from abroad, we have thousands of sheep in the UK why import from NZ.

I would like to eat a duck that has swam in a pond.

I would like all the ducks and pheasant that are shot in the season to be eaten in the UK instead of abroad.    

I would like people to realise its not that more expensive to buy from a local butchers, you know what you are eating.  And it supports our local economy.

I would like people to realise what they are actually eating, and what is in a stock cube, jelly sweets.  Google it. NO wonder some people get tummy ache eating certain things. I also wonder if people know what they are actually feeding their dogs? dried or wet dog food.  I make my own dog food.....

I want people to realise how lazy as a society we have become and dependant on supermarkets.

I want Turners to be shut and all operations suspended until all investigations have finalised.  I want them to be prosecuted for the years of abuse and cruelty.

I want a regulated and monitored, correct horse slaughter system.  

I want people to realise that its very expensive to own a horse and a lot of responsibility.  And at the end of its day, put it to sleep at home.

I want people let people know there are other ways of getting rid of your horse rather than send it to an abattoir.

I want people to stop breeding for meat.

I want the gangs in Ireland, Russia and Eastern Europe to stop their cruelty and vile meat trade.  I want the Russians to realise that you can actually kill a horse with one bullet (if you are a good shot) instead of repeatedly smacking it in the head with an axe.  I want the horses to be slaughtered in Europe on their door steps, instead of transported thousands of miles to be killed, just because the Italians like their meat to be fresh and bloody not frozen.

I want ports on the East cost to be monitored for export of our beautiful native ponies.  Which are bought by the French and Germans pretending to be bought for riding schools.  And they are actually being slaughtered and mixed in with our food. 

I would like to see our native ponies round up and some of them gelded.  Perhaps our v rich celabs could pay for this?

I would also like a Bayliner 642 Cuddy.......[/QUOTE]

Which is exactly what I would like to see together with most of the people on this thread?

I don't really understand why you are preaching to the converted?

PS: Replied in blue this time as your text ran into mine


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## Crazy horse lady (25 March 2013)

Crazy horse lady said:



			I don't do an awful job.  I ensure that animals do not suffer.  Part of that job involves putting them to sleep to end their suffering by either shooting them or injecting them.  For me, that's a wonderful job.  

Out of interest, what are you actively doing to try and change things about the situation you feel so passionately about?  I assume that you extend these efforts to cattle/sheep/pig slaughterhouses also?



What is the reality of horse slaughter?
		
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My quote is directed at your job in terms of ending a life, to me that would be a hard thing to do.  And if you are putting the animal down for reasons of suffering then that is absolutely the right thing to do.  

I am passionate about the welfare of all animals bred for the table, ie cows, sheep, etc.  I believe they should have a healthy and outdoor rearing, with as less drug intervention as possible, ie growth hormones.  They should have  a slaughter at a local abattoir, even better in a mobile abattoir (Abachem Engineering).  So as to reduce mileage also less stress for the animals.  There should be CCTV to monitor the process, to hopefully reduce the abuse on these animals (as per footage I have seen).  

I would like people to buy british products and not rubbish from abroad, we have thousands of sheep in the UK why import from NZ.

I would like to eat a duck that has swam in a pond.

I would like all the ducks and pheasant that are shot in the season to be eaten in the UK instead of abroad.    

I would like people to realise its not that more expensive to buy from a local butchers, you know what you are eating.  And it supports our local economy.

I would like people to realise what they are actually eating, and what is in a stock cube, jelly sweets.  Google it. NO wonder some people get tummy ache eating certain things. I also wonder if people know what they are actually feeding their dogs? dried or wet dog food.  I make my own dog food.....

I want people to realise how lazy as a society we have become and dependant on supermarkets.

I want Turners to be shut and all operations suspended until all investigations have finalised.  I want them to be prosecuted for the years of abuse and cruelty.

I want a regulated and monitored, correct horse slaughter system.  

I want people to realise that its very expensive to own a horse and a lot of responsibility.  And at the end of its day, put it to sleep at home.

I want people let people know there are other ways of getting rid of your horse rather than send it to an abattoir.

I want people to stop breeding for meat.

I want the gangs in Ireland, Russia and Eastern Europe to stop their cruelty and vile meat trade.  I want the Russians to realise that you can actually kill a horse with one bullet (if you are a good shot) instead of repeatedly smacking it in the head with an axe.  I want the horses to be slaughtered in Europe on their door steps, instead of transported thousands of miles to be killed, just because the Italians like their meat to be fresh and bloody not frozen.

I want ports on the East cost to be monitored for export of our beautiful native ponies.  Which are bought by the French and Germans pretending to be bought for riding schools.  And they are actually being slaughtered and mixed in with our food. 

I would like to see our native ponies round up and some of them gelded.  Perhaps our v rich celabs could pay for this?

I would also like a Bayliner 642 Cuddy.......[/QUOTE]

Also to promote my findings, to highlight alternatives I have printed off petitions for various campaigns and asked ppl to sign them.  I have also been in various newspapers and on various TV news programmes (with others) and I was also on BBC radio.


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## Crazy horse lady (25 March 2013)

Amaranta said:



			My quote is directed at your job in terms of ending a life, to me that would be a hard thing to do.  And if you are putting the animal down for reasons of suffering then that is absolutely the right thing to do.  

I am passionate about the welfare of all animals bred for the table, ie cows, sheep, etc.  I believe they should have a healthy and outdoor rearing, with as less drug intervention as possible, ie growth hormones.  They should have  a slaughter at a local abattoir, even better in a mobile abattoir (Abachem Engineering).  So as to reduce mileage also less stress for the animals.  There should be CCTV to monitor the process, to hopefully reduce the abuse on these animals (as per footage I have seen).  

I would like people to buy british products and not rubbish from abroad, we have thousands of sheep in the UK why import from NZ.

I would like to eat a duck that has swam in a pond.

I would like all the ducks and pheasant that are shot in the season to be eaten in the UK instead of abroad.    

I would like people to realise its not that more expensive to buy from a local butchers, you know what you are eating.  And it supports our local economy.

I would like people to realise what they are actually eating, and what is in a stock cube, jelly sweets.  Google it. NO wonder some people get tummy ache eating certain things. I also wonder if people know what they are actually feeding their dogs? dried or wet dog food.  I make my own dog food.....

I want people to realise how lazy as a society we have become and dependant on supermarkets.

I want Turners to be shut and all operations suspended until all investigations have finalised.  I want them to be prosecuted for the years of abuse and cruelty.

I want a regulated and monitored, correct horse slaughter system.  

I want people to realise that its very expensive to own a horse and a lot of responsibility.  And at the end of its day, put it to sleep at home.

I want people let people know there are other ways of getting rid of your horse rather than send it to an abattoir.

I want people to stop breeding for meat.

I want the gangs in Ireland, Russia and Eastern Europe to stop their cruelty and vile meat trade.  I want the Russians to realise that you can actually kill a horse with one bullet (if you are a good shot) instead of repeatedly smacking it in the head with an axe.  I want the horses to be slaughtered in Europe on their door steps, instead of transported thousands of miles to be killed, just because the Italians like their meat to be fresh and bloody not frozen.

I want ports on the East cost to be monitored for export of our beautiful native ponies.  Which are bought by the French and Germans pretending to be bought for riding schools.  And they are actually being slaughtered and mixed in with our food. 

I would like to see our native ponies round up and some of them gelded.  Perhaps our v rich celabs could pay for this?

I would also like a Bayliner 642 Cuddy.......

Click to expand...

Which is exactly what I would like to see together with most of the people on this thread?

I don't really understand why you are preaching to the converted?

PS: Replied in blue this time as your text ran into mine[/QUOTE]

Yes I know it is.  Some one asked.


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## Crazy horse lady (25 March 2013)

Amaranta said:



			You took my perfectly polite post and assumed I was being rude, at that time I was not, the red writing was merely to distinguish between my replies to the original posters statements not surprising I was snarky to you under the circumstances.

If you don't like reactions please don't post to provoke them.
		
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Originally Posted by Amaranta  
You really are an idiot, I don't debate with idiots, I prefer to debate with someone who is in possession of the facts which you clearly are not. Now off you go back to your facebook page, run along now.

I am referring to this...........


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## Crazy horse lady (25 March 2013)

amymay said:



			And the alternative is

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Read the previous entries.


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## Crazy horse lady (25 March 2013)

amymay said:



			I don't think anyone would disagree with you at all.

But as has been said countless times, you have to address the over breeding before you'll address stock going to slaughter.
		
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I would love to address the over breeding.  At the moment I have my heart and passions directed else where.


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## Amymay (25 March 2013)

Crazy horse lady said:



			I would love to address the over breeding.  At the moment I have my heart and passions directed else where.
		
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In which case, there will always be the need for slaughter houses.

You can't treat the symptoms, but you can treat the cause.


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## Amaranta (25 March 2013)

Crazy horse lady said:



			Originally Posted by Amaranta  
You really are an idiot, I don't debate with idiots, I prefer to debate with someone who is in possession of the facts which you clearly are not. Now off you go back to your facebook page, run along now.

I am referring to this...........
		
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Which was in response to your rather rude post


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## Amaranta (25 March 2013)

For someone who is professing to want to debate you have a very strange way of doing so, especially so as on your facebook page you refer to us as nasty people.

You then come on here and preach to the converted, using inflamatory language and asking us to, I quote 'murder our horses at home'

Not a good way to start off on this forum is it?


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## Crazy horse lady (25 March 2013)

amymay said:



			In which case, there will always be the need for slaughter houses.

You can't treat the symptoms, but you can treat the cause.
		
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Yes I know there is a need or horse slaughter houses.


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## Crazy horse lady (25 March 2013)

Amaranta said:



			Which was in response to your rather rude post
		
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W E!! I was actually referring to some people being nasty.  I refuse to rise to any more of your comments.

This is about Red Lion Abattoir prosecution and horse welfare not about who can get the last word in.


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## Crazy horse lady (25 March 2013)

A BBC investigation was told that horses with false papers have been sent to the Red Lion abattoir in Nantwich.

The abattoir's owner said no horse with false paperwork had ever knowingly been slaughtered there.

In a separate investigation, the Food Standards Agency (FSA) said it was looking at "inconsistencies with horse passports" at the slaughterhouse.

Speaking to BBC Northern Ireland's Spotlight programme, a man claiming to be part of a criminal gang said he had delivered horses to the abattoir on "multiple occasions" on forged papers.

He said some horses were unsuitable for human consumption.

The man, who did not want to be named, said: "[The horses] would come from anywhere, everywhere, good, bad or indifferent, it didn't matter.

"A lot of them were bought at farms around the country; people didn't want them any more or couldn't afford them.

"Some of the horses weren't in the best of condition, but to stimulate and get them up on their feet again you'd give them cortisone and Bute injections."


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## Emma86 (25 March 2013)

Crazy horse lady said:



			A BBC investigation was told that horses with false papers have been sent to the Red Lion abattoir in Nantwich.

The abattoir's owner said no horse with false paperwork had ever knowingly been slaughtered there.

In a separate investigation, the Food Standards Agency (FSA) said it was looking at "inconsistencies with horse passports" at the slaughterhouse.

Speaking to BBC Northern Ireland's Spotlight programme, a man claiming to be part of a criminal gang said he had delivered horses to the abattoir on "multiple occasions" on forged papers.

He said some horses were unsuitable for human consumption.

The man, who did not want to be named, said: "[The horses] would come from anywhere, everywhere, good, bad or indifferent, it didn't matter.

"A lot of them were bought at farms around the country; people didn't want them any more or couldn't afford them.

"Some of the horses weren't in the best of condition, but to stimulate and get them up on their feet again you'd give them cortisone and Bute injections."
		
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I have been following this post, as some have provided some interesting information. 
With all due respect I'm not sure even you know what you are trying to achieve, because I certainly am not sure anymore.
This information doesn't tell people anything that hasn't just been discussed which is adding fuel to a fire that people are getting bored of watching burn and your making your argument less and less valid.

As far as I can see no one on this thread has said they are in anyway pleased with what has been shown in the short clips from Red Lion and I have to VERY strongly agree this is a problem that needs to be dealt with within the slaughter houses, not just close the whole lot down! Agree there needs to be tighter regulations, and more closely monitored procedures within our abbatiors. However, this involves more time and money so how this can be done I do not know.

As someone who lived practically next door to Spindles Farm and helplessly witnessed the whole hideous thing this is a subject that means a lot to me, as we watched truck loads of horses taken past out house every day knowing exactly where they were headed. But if the slaughter houses were closed there would have been a hell of a lot more dead and dying horses found there. As there would be all over the country.


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## Crazy horse lady (25 March 2013)

Did you know that you can ring Hillside animal sanctuary and ask them to post collection boxes?  The monies donated are gratefully accepted and used to feed horses (as well as other animals) that they have rescued either from neglect, rescued from slaughter or from competing and racing yards.


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## Moomin1 (25 March 2013)

Crazy horse lady said:



			Did you know that you can ring Hillside animal sanctuary and ask them to post collection boxes?  The monies donated are gratefully accepted and used to feed horses (as well as other animals) that they have rescued either from neglect, rescued from slaughter or from competing and racing yards.
		
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..Mmmm....

'Rescued from competing and racing yards'?!  Please could you explain why horses need 'rescuing' from such things?


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## Crazy horse lady (25 March 2013)

Emma86 said:



			I have been following this post, as some have provided some interesting information. 
With all due respect I'm not sure even you know what you are trying to achieve, because I certainly am not sure anymore.
This information doesn't tell people anything that hasn't just been discussed which is adding fuel to a fire that people are getting bored of watching burn and your making your argument less and less valid.

As far as I can see no one on this thread has said they are in anyway pleased with what has been shown in the short clips from Red Lion and I have to VERY strongly agree this is a problem that needs to be dealt with within the slaughter houses, not just close the whole lot down! Agree there needs to be tighter regulations, and more closely monitored procedures within our abbatiors. However, this involves more time and money so how this can be done I do not know.


As someone who lived practically next door to Spindles Farm and helplessly witnessed the whole hideous thing this is a subject that means a lot to me, as we watched truck loads of horses taken past out house every day knowing exactly where they were headed. But if the slaughter houses were closed there would have been a hell of a lot more dead and dying horses found there. As there would be all over the country.
		
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I joined this after seeing the first couple of posts. I thought you were all, being horse lovers, into the idea that Turners should be prosecuted, after seeing the footage and abuse, and the abuse of other horses.  We need horse slaughter houses and we need to promote the need to stop over breeding horses, who, if not good enough, will end up in a sorry state.


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## Crazy horse lady (25 March 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			..Mmmm....

'Rescued from competing and racing yards'?!  Please could you explain why horses need 'rescuing' from such things?

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Horses who are excessively bred for the perfect racing horse or the perfect competing horse and then flippantly sold for meat, or sold on and on, or given away to people who have no clue.  Not the ones who are doing well and are obviously treated like kings and queens, and kept to the end of their days at their faithful masters homes.


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## Crazy horse lady (25 March 2013)

Death may be inevitable but cruelty is not. If we must eat meat, then we must ensure that the animals we kill for our food live the best possible lives before they die.....D Morris 1928


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## Crazy horse lady (25 March 2013)

http://www.facebook.com/pages/CCTV-for-ALL-Slaughterhouses/113902138666401?ref=stream


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## Amymay (25 March 2013)

The last place to get my money would bw hillside.


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## Crazy horse lady (25 March 2013)

amymay said:



			The last place to get my money would bw hillside.
		
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Really! why is that?


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## Crazy horse lady (25 March 2013)

Did you know that you can send your old toner cartridges to Hillside animal sanctuary and they can recycle them and all monies go to buying food for the animals they rescue.


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## Moomin1 (25 March 2013)

Crazy horse lady said:



			Horses who are excessively bred for the perfect racing horse or the perfect competing horse and then flippantly sold for meat, or sold on and on, or given away to people who have no clue.  Not the ones who are doing well and are obviously treated like kings and queens, and kept to the end of their days at their faithful masters homes.
		
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See, there you go again!  Why is stopping a horse being slaughtered for meat 'rescuing them'?!  You repeatedly make out that it's 'cruel' to send horses for slaughter.  You base this on one slaughterhouse's failings.  

I also would not donate to Hillside.


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## Natch (25 March 2013)

Other horse charities, collecting boxes and donated ink cartridges are available  

Another who wouldn't donate to hillside. I support several other well known equine charities.


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## Crazy horse lady (25 March 2013)

Wow, you really are a different breed of "Horse lovers".


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## Patterdale (25 March 2013)

No, we just, like most informed people, believe that there is a worse fate for unwanted horses than being humanely killed. Being bought in large batches and kept in a garage by people with no money or sense, for instance. 

To owner of Red Lion does need to be prosecuted if they have broken guidelines. But banning all horse slaughter would be a step backwards for horse welfare.


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## Natch (25 March 2013)

If by a diffetent breed of 'horse lover' you mean someone who follows the party lines of the BHS, World Horse Welfare and Redwings, supports those charities who operate within the law, won't be won over by claims based on unavailable evidence, and who sees the bigger picture and the place that humane slaughter has in it then yes, call me a different breed of 'horse lover' in inverted commas and shout it from the rooftops.


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## Bertieb123 (25 March 2013)

Crazy horse lady said:



			P.S. if you are a Cheshire lass like me, you will have heard of the grim goings on at Turners.  These stories are years old.  Hence the tip off to Hillside to go through the trouble of putting the cameras in there.  Even if the place is not shut down at least it may educate some ppl into the reality of horse slaughter.  And help them understand there is an alternative to the "knackers yard".
		
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Crazy horse lady I have a some questions for you.

1: If you as a Cheshire Lass have heard about grim things going on at Turners years ago, did you report it to any Authorities, RSPCA (if so would be interested to know who and what was done).

2: On this quote you want to educate people into the reality of horse slaughter and understand that there is an alternative to the knackers yard. Well I not quite sure how you are going to educate people on horse slaughter as some time ago I mentioned about you going into a abattoir for a day and the answer was something like why would I want to!  You stated you have seen things good and bad on the net? I am afraid that does not qualify you to be able to 'educate' people in the slaughter of horses or any animal. I am not disputing there were some breeches on the Turners Hillside Video, myself and others have agreed it need addressing and im sure it will be.

3: One moment ie, this quote you come over as being against horse slaughter, now recently you agree with it

4: Hillside, while I take my hat off to them for exposing things (have seen other things like the horrendous farm, and the Dairy Cattle) I do as I said before worry a little for the persons who are actually going onto premises (for their personal safety) again, were authorities or some of the main welfare organisations informed, if so and nothing was done THEY also need highlighting for doing nothing as we are paying for the authorities to act when something reported and many are donating to some of the large welfare 'Charities' if they are turning a blind eye ask why publicly.
How many are Hillside planning on 'rescuing'? they seem to be crying out for donations already.

To finish, I am a horse lover, and I feel there is a need for horse abattoirs, as I have said many, many times, done properly it is a peaceful end to any animal, whether bred for meat or not, and I do actually think (as much as it galls me about what has happened) IF Turners stays open people should work with them to make sure there is no repeat of what has gone on, it is a much needed service. IF it closes I hope another one opens to replace it (properly monitored of course). 

As I have worked in an abattoir (not a horse one, but have visited the other one nr. Taunton a few times) for the last 20 years I think I am able to comment in an informed way as to what goes on in most abattoirs.

We cannot rescue them all!


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## Amaranta (25 March 2013)

Excellent post Bertb123


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## Moomin1 (25 March 2013)

Crazy horse lady said:



			Wow, you really are a different breed of "Horse lovers".  


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Yet more narrow mindedness.

So we are a 'different breed of horse lover' because we choose not to donate to Hillside? 

I spend my entire life rescuing the horses which really need to be rescued - severely neglected and abused ones.  Not ones which are simply being sold for slaughter.

Turners need prosecuting.  They need monitoring much more closely, as do all slaughterhouses.  But I do not blindly blanket them all with the same insinuation of cruelty, or for one second think that it's 'cruel' to send  horses to slaughter.  I also find it quite irritating when people say they 'rescued' a horse from slaughter. No, they didn't 'rescue' it.  The horse did not know it was going to be slaughtered.  The people merely 'bought' the horse to prevent it from being slaughtered.  Not one animal which I have shot in a slaughterhouse looked remotely distressed and not once did I see any bad treatment of the animals by staff.


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## guido16 (25 March 2013)

I think there should be a mass cull. Get the army in, just like during foot and mouth. 

Then try and stop the overbreeding.. I do not have the answer for how we do that though.


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## dalesponydiva (25 March 2013)

I, for one, do support Hillside. They have done some very good work in bringing to the attention, of the general public, the atrocities that occur at markets, abattoirs and illegal slaughter houses. Whilst we all wish for legal and humane slaughter for all animals, including equines, it does not always happen. Highlighting illegal and cruel actions will benefit all animals and ultimately lead to increased confidence by the general public and horse owners. Horse and other farm animal slaughter does not have to be cruel. It can be carried out with calmness and quiet efficiency. This will lead to Humane Slaughter, which I am sure we will all welcome.  However, in order to achieve this there must be safeguards in place - cctv is a proven method of achieving regulation and must help to weed out the "bad apples" and prevent abuse. This should lead to accountability.  Any method of highlighting a problem and bringing it to our attention which ultimately will lead to improvements in handling and slaughter of animals must be welcomed. We must not shut our eyes to this problem or bicker amongst ourselves but stand united and present a concise case.


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## Amaranta (25 March 2013)

dalesponydiva said:



			I, for one, do support Hillside. They have done some very good work in bringing to the attention, of the general public, the atrocities that occur at markets, abattoirs and illegal slaughter houses. Whilst we all wish for legal and humane slaughter for all animals, including equines, it does not always happen. Highlighting illegal and cruel actions will benefit all animals and ultimately lead to increased confidence by the general public and horse owners. Horse and other farm animal slaughter does not have to be cruel. It can be carried out with calmness and quiet efficiency. This will lead to Humane Slaughter, which I am sure we will all welcome.  However, in order to achieve this there must be safeguards in place - cctv is a proven method of achieving regulation and must help to weed out the "bad apples" and prevent abuse. This should lead to accountability.  Any method of highlighting a problem and bringing it to our attention which ultimately will lead to improvements in handling and slaughter of animals must be welcomed. We must not shut our eyes to this problem or bicker amongst ourselves but stand united and present a concise case.
		
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I agree, especially the bit about all animals, I think you will find that most people on here would agree with you.

Sadly when someone posts incorrect facts in a hysterical manner (not you btw) and then insults people who are actually on the same side, they will be treated with the derision they quite frankly deserve, that sort of person does nothing for the cause they are 'supporting'.


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## guido16 (25 March 2013)

Like I said, a massive cull is required to get this back to a manageable number of horses. 

Then we can start again in a controlled manner.


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## niagaraduval (25 March 2013)

^^^^ 

I agree.


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## Amaranta (25 March 2013)

niagaraduval said:



			^^^^ 

I agree.
		
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What a mass cull?  Don't say that you will drive CHL over the edge!


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## Alec Swan (25 March 2013)

guido16 said:



			Like I said, a massive cull is required to get this back to a manageable number of horses. 

Then we can start again in a controlled manner.
		
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niagaraduval said:



			^^^^ 

I agree.
		
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I don't agree.  I agree in principle,  of course,  but we are humans,  and we have freedom of choice,  and unless we have State control,  then there will be no control.  

*A controlled manner*?  Honestly?  Says who?  YOU?  How would you direct our brave new world?  How would you have directives issued?  We struggle with the EU as it is,  do you really want more State Decisions?  I don't.

Alec.


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## Amaranta (25 March 2013)

Psst Alec...................I think it may be a wind up


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## guido16 (25 March 2013)

Alec,

Take a chill pill.


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## Crazy horse lady (25 March 2013)

To further my mission.  I have just received an info pack from PETA for ks1 and ks2, for our head to teach compassion to animals.  Studies have shown a direct link that if children harm animals it is quite probable they will harm humans.  

I have also managed to persuade our staff to look into prices of using local priduce for school meals.

All the things I do are following the hillside investigations at red lion and the disgusting horse meat contamination in our food chain.


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## Crazy horse lady (25 March 2013)

Ps did you know that the lady who runs and founded Hillside, is the very same lady who runs and founded red wings.


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## Amaranta (25 March 2013)

I might have know you would be a PETA admirer


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## Patterdale (25 March 2013)

If you want to be taken at all seriously, by anyone, anywhere, then PLEASE..........step away from PETA!


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## guido16 (25 March 2013)

You are teaching the "PETA" way to children? 

Presumably the school board, parents and authorities are happy with this?


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## MurphysMinder (25 March 2013)

I would have been furious if my children had been taught the PETA way at school !


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## Patterdale (25 March 2013)

Can you imagine guido? They'll come home from school, refuse their shepherds pie and start burning all the leather shoes in the house.


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## Patterdale (25 March 2013)

Then throw red paint over the neighbours got using slug pellets 

Not much scares me but PETA and their ssupporters come close


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## Amaranta (25 March 2013)

It does explain the irrationality of CHLs posts though, could not put a point across properly if it was sticking out of the end of her nose


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## guido16 (25 March 2013)

My thought exactly!!!!

I am sure the school authorities would be interested to know they had an extremist teacher amongst their mix!


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## Natch (25 March 2013)

"Ps did you know that the lady who runs and founded Hillside, is the very same lady who runs and founded red wings."

Not true. She founded Redwings but no longer runs it. Indeed I believe that she has had nothing to do with Redwings for a number of years.


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## Amaranta (25 March 2013)

Very true Guido as a parent I would be flipping furious if I knew the school was encouraging extremist views.  My kids would be out of there pronto!


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## Crazy horse lady (25 March 2013)

I'm not a PETA enthusiast I went onto the website for info.


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## Amaranta (25 March 2013)

Thanks Natch - yet more misinformation from CHL, it never ceases to amaze me the drivel some people will spout to gain support.

Got a lot of respect for Redwings.


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## Amaranta (25 March 2013)

Crazy horse lady said:



			I'm not a PETA enthusiast I went onto the website for info.
		
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With the amount of 'research' you do and you being a teacher an all, I am VERY surprised you did not know about their views.  Why did you not get in touch with the Blue Cross or a less extremist organisation?


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## Crazy horse lady (25 March 2013)

God your so dramatic!!! All the parents are actually rather pleased with the pack.  Stops kids from being cruel to animals.


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## Crazy horse lady (25 March 2013)

Not a teacher.  Been on lots of other web sites.  I found this  particular pack very informative.


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## Amaranta (25 March 2013)

Lol dramatic I think you have been reading far too many of your own posts dearie


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## guido16 (25 March 2013)

So if your not a teacher, why are you teaching?

Frustrated dinner lady? Gobby janitor?  Preaching cleaner?


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## Moomin1 (25 March 2013)

Crazy horse lady said:



			God your so dramatic!!! All the parents are actually rather pleased with the pack.  Stops kids from being cruel to animals.
		
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Children should not be subjected to being taught any kind of extreme views one way or another.  

If you want to teach children the correct way to treat animals, then they should be taught the laws of the country, given examples of instances when the law has been implicated as a result of cruelty being inflicted, the consequences of their actions, and so forth.

There are large welfare organisations which do provide education packs and sometimes send officers out to give lessons/talks at schools on the above issues.


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## Amaranta (25 March 2013)

And I am very glad you are not a teacher, your grasp of grammar concerned me.

Remember, in a written debate, punctuation is your friend.


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## Crazy horse lady (25 March 2013)

Not teaching kids to not eat meat, hence my previous post about asking school to use local butchers rather than a huge supplier.


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## Moomin1 (25 March 2013)

guido16 said:



			Frustrated dinner lady?
		
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Bet there are no burgers on the menu in that school!


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## paisley (25 March 2013)

Amaranta said:



			Remember, in a written debate, punctuation is your friend.
		
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So very true. However, for some posters, use of the exclamation mark should be limited to one per post


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## Amaranta (25 March 2013)

Crazy horse lady said:



			Not teaching kids to not eat meat, hence my previous post about asking school to use local butchers rather than a huge supplier.
		
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You may have got somewhere if you had not come on here preaching, quoting facts incorrectly and generally treating people as if they were ignorant.

What your tiny little mind is failing to grasp is that we are already aware of the breaches of welfare at Turners, most people on here would like to see them prosecuted for these breeches, we are also well aware of the problems causing this influx into slaughterhouses and therefore we do not need someone who is not in full possession of the facts to try to teach us to suck eggs.

Some of us have been campaigning to stop live transport for years, some of us are aware of the discrepancies in the Tripartite that allows our horses to be shipped to Europe, some of us are already doing our thing for horse welfare for a lot longer than you have.


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## Crazy horse lady (25 March 2013)

I'm a ranta, your very naughty!!! Your a very rude person, now go to bed.


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## Crazy horse lady (25 March 2013)

Bored now.  Speak tomoz.


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## Amaranta (25 March 2013)

Crazy horse lady said:



			I'm a ranta, your very naughty!!! Your a very rude person, now go to bed.
		
Click to expand...


A lovely well thought out reasoned post .......again

I may be rude but tomorrow I may be nice, stupid and ignorant however is a permanent thing so sadly you are stuck that way


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## piebaldsparkle (25 March 2013)

Crazy horse lady said:



			I'm a ranta, your very naughty!!! Your a very rude person, now go to bed.
		
Click to expand...



Ranter surely not ranta

You are or you're not your


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## Bertieb123 (26 March 2013)

Bertieb123 said:



			Crazy horse lady I have a some questions for you.

1: If you as a Cheshire Lass have heard about grim things going on at Turners years ago, did you report it to any Authorities, RSPCA (if so would be interested to know who and what was done).

2: On this quote you want to educate people into the reality of horse slaughter and understand that there is an alternative to the knackers yard. Well I not quite sure how you are going to educate people on horse slaughter as some time ago I mentioned about you going into a abattoir for a day and the answer was something like why would I want to!  You stated you have seen things good and bad on the net? I am afraid that does not qualify you to be able to 'educate' people in the slaughter of horses or any animal. I am not disputing there were some breeches on the Turners Hillside Video, myself and others have agreed it need addressing and im sure it will be.

3: One moment ie, this quote you come over as being against horse slaughter, now recently you agree with it

4: Hillside, while I take my hat off to them for exposing things (have seen other things like the horrendous farm, and the Dairy Cattle) I do as I said before worry a little for the persons who are actually going onto premises (for their personal safety) again, were authorities or some of the main welfare organisations informed, if so and nothing was done THEY also need highlighting for doing nothing as we are paying for the authorities to act when something reported and many are donating to some of the large welfare 'Charities' if they are turning a blind eye ask why publicly.
How many are Hillside planning on 'rescuing'? they seem to be crying out for donations already.

To finish, I am a horse lover, and I feel there is a need for horse abattoirs, as I have said many, many times, done properly it is a peaceful end to any animal, whether bred for meat or not, and I do actually think (as much as it galls me about what has happened) IF Turners stays open people should work with them to make sure there is no repeat of what has gone on, it is a much needed service. IF it closes I hope another one opens to replace it (properly monitored of course). 

As I have worked in an abattoir (not a horse one, but have visited the other one nr. Taunton a few times) for the last 20 years I think I am able to comment in an informed way as to what goes on in most abattoirs.

We cannot rescue them all!
		
Click to expand...

CRAZY HORSE LADY IAM DISAPOINTED YOU NEVER ANSWERED ANY OF MY QUESTIONS.

I AM ALSO VERY DISAPOINTED THAT YOU HAVE ONCE AGAIN BEEN ON WEBSITES, ONES WITH VERY EXTREME VIEWS AT THAT TO GET ALL YOUR INFORMATION AND NOW YOU ARE GOING TO SPOUT THAT BILE TO SCHOOL CHILDREN I TOO WOULD BE FUMING IF MY CHILDREN CAME HOME SPOUTING ALL THAT MISFORMED RUBBISH! ESPECIALLY FROM SOMEONE WHO FOUND IT ON THE NET OR IN A INFO PACK, THATS THE PROBLEM WITH THIS WORLD THERE ARE TOO MANY SO CALLED EXPERTS WITH NO PRACTICAL KNOWELDGE THEN THEY TRY TO_EDUCATEOTHERS._

IF I WAS ONE OF THE ORGANISERS OF HILLSIDE I WOULD BE CRINGING WITH  SOME OF YOUR COMMENTS, FOR WHAT THEY ARE DOING NEED PEOPLE WHO KNOW *FACT AND CERTAINLY NOT VERGING ON EXTREMEST VIEWS TO PROMOTE THEM*


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## Crazy horse lady (26 March 2013)

Bertieb123 said:



			CRAZY HORSE LADY IAM DISAPOINTED YOU NEVER ANSWERED ANY OF MY QUESTIONS.

I AM ALSO VERY DISAPOINTED THAT YOU HAVE ONCE AGAIN BEEN ON WEBSITES, ONES WITH VERY EXTREME VIEWS AT THAT TO GET ALL YOUR INFORMATION AND NOW YOU ARE GOING TO SPOUT THAT BILE TO SCHOOL CHILDREN I TOO WOULD BE FUMING IF MY CHILDREN CAME HOME SPOUTING ALL THAT MISFORMED RUBBISH! ESPECIALLY FROM SOMEONE WHO FOUND IT ON THE NET OR IN A INFO PACK, THATS THE PROBLEM WITH THIS WORLD THERE ARE TOO MANY SO CALLED EXPERTS WITH NO PRACTICAL KNOWELDGE THEN THEY TRY TO_EDUCATEOTHERS._

IF I WAS ONE OF THE ORGANISERS OF HILLSIDE I WOULD BE CRINGING WITH  SOME OF YOUR COMMENTS, FOR WHAT THEY ARE DOING NEED PEOPLE WHO KNOW *FACT AND CERTAINLY NOT VERGING ON EXTREMEST VIEWS TO PROMOTE THEM*

Click to expand...

B, where to start.  I did not answer your questions as i have been busy.  Also, to be honest, I got a bit bored of answering the same questions over and over on previous posts.

Turners have been reported on numerous occasions to the RSPA, WHW etc (in the good awl days).  Of course they said they would look into it, maybe they did, but nothing was ever done.  Hence why they are still open and running.  Only now, thanks to social media, has the issue been thoroughly  highlighted. 

The "not going to a slaughter house" issue, I still would never have the stomach or the heart to do that.  Still using good and bad footage to shout out and tell ppl what goes on, the alternatives, etc.  Also a very trusted rep from Hillside went to a certain abattoir for two weeks and said they think the whole affair is still grim, the point they went? was asked to go, like you are asking me to go.  so they went, still not very nice, still agrees humane slaughter needs to be done. 

I am against ppl who put their beloved family, competing, breeding horses to this death.  The animal has served you well, give it a dignified ending at home.  There is a difference between this and slaughter houses.  I know there is a need for slaughter houses, but want a well managed slaughter house with CCTV, where the slaughter men do not beat the horses, leave them for days and days in pens with strangles, colic, broken legs.  

I agree, I too worry about charities that risk themselves getting this footage.  They are super brave and committed to the welfare of animals.  Why dont the authorities use this evidence to prosecute?  Maybe because the fever and anger at the situation from the public dies down, maybe it costs too much money, maybe they have too many cases on their hands, etc etc.

To finnish I too am a horse lover.  I too see the need for horse slaughter houses.  I agree, it pees me off to say this but if I had the money I would open a super efficient well run slaughter house for horses.  I would have it purposely built with correct care for the horses, I would create a totally non mechanical (as mush as one could) atmosphere.  I do believe there are other abattoirs like this for cattle etc. All very calm and peaceful not like huge plants.

Thank you for your info on working in an abattoir its reassuring that it can be done correctly.

B, I fail to see how it disappoints you me looking on the internet for info, the days of me going to the library and leafing through books for reference are well gone.  I prefer to use the internet.  

THE ONLY INFO I HAVE RECEIVED FROM PETA IS TEACHING CHILDREN TO BE COMPASSIONATE TO ANIMALS.NOTHING ELSE!!!!!  It just so happens this is the first pack I saw so ordered it.  PETA have some very interesting information.


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## Crazy horse lady (26 March 2013)

guido16 said:



			So if your not a teacher, why are you teaching?

Frustrated dinner lady? Gobby janitor?  Preaching cleaner?
		
Click to expand...

Im not teaching, Im sharing my knowledge.  Did you know that a yolk does not actually grow into a chick, the yolk is there to feed the chick in the shell, once the yolk is eaten the chick pops out.  How fab is that......


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## Crazy horse lady (26 March 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			Bet there are no burgers on the menu in that school!  

Click to expand...

Actually there is a burger option on the menu, from mince sourced locally. Yummy !


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## Crazy horse lady (26 March 2013)

Bertie, I am very interested in your views and experiences working at a slaughter house.  As I say, I have seen good and bad footage.  When I have time I would like to discuss this with you.  I have spoken to a few slaughter men, so value and appreciate opinions.


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## Alec Swan (26 March 2013)

Crazy horse lady said:



			Im not teaching, Im sharing my knowledge.  .......   How fab is that......

Click to expand...

You're actually displaying a staggering degree of ill-researched and ill-informed ignorance.

Alec.


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## Patterdale (26 March 2013)

You seem to think that this forum is 'harsh' because of the need to be 'factual.'
You will actually find, that if you are in possession of fully researched facts, and present them in a coherent manner, then people will listen. 
In this instance however, people on this forum are already well aware of the issues, and support any prosecution for welfare breaches. 

(Well......when were not being harsh and relentlessly whipping our horses, that is )

Horrors


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## Crazy horse lady (26 March 2013)

piebaldsparkle said:





Ranter surely not ranta

You are or you're not your



Click to expand...

"Im a ranta", is an acronym of Amaranta.  

And yes, absolutely, I am a ranter.


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## Crazy horse lady (26 March 2013)

Patterdale said:



			You seem to think that this forum is 'harsh' because of the need to be 'factual.'
You will actually find, that if you are in possession of fully researched facts, and present them in a coherent manner, then people will listen. 
In this instance however, people on this forum are already well aware of the issues, and support any prosecution for welfare breaches. 

(Well......when were not being harsh and relentlessly whipping our horses, that is )

Horrors  

Click to expand...

I do think some of the ppl on this forum are harsh.  Ban the whip!! in all my years of riding I am proud to say I have "never" whipped any horse, or used spurs.


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## Crazy horse lady (26 March 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			You're actually displaying a staggering degree of ill-researched and ill-informed ignorance.

Alec.
		
Click to expand...

I dont see what I am preaching is ill researched or ill informed?  Are you saying that the footage at Hillside is ill researched?


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## Patterdale (26 March 2013)

Ban the whip?!

Do you know, I just typed out a reasoned reply then deleted the whole thing. There's just no reasoning with some people! 

So lets ban whips, close the slaughterhouses, murder our horses at home and all join PETA. Only thing is, PETA are against keeping animals for any reason, they believe to even ride a horse or keep a pet dog is cruel, so I suppose that would mean an end to keeping piles of ponies in your garage.....


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## Amaranta (26 March 2013)

Crazy horse lady said:



			Im not teaching, Im sharing my knowledge.  Did you know that a yolk does not actually grow into a chick, the yolk is there to feed the chick in the shell, once the yolk is eaten the chick pops out.  How fab is that......

Click to expand...

Yes thanks, already  knew that, bless you for not knowing before the internet


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## MurphysMinder (26 March 2013)

Amaranta said:



			Yes thanks, already  knew that, bless you for not knowing before the internet

Click to expand...

And milk comes from cows, not from supermarkets!


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## Amaranta (26 March 2013)

Patterdale said:



			You seem to think that this forum is 'harsh' because of the need to be 'factual.'
You will actually find, that if you are in possession of fully researched facts, and present them in a coherent manner, then people will listen. 
In this instance however, people on this forum are already well aware of the issues, and support any prosecution for welfare breaches. 

(Well......when were not being harsh and relentlessly whipping our horses, that is )

Horrors  

Click to expand...

She'll be talking about Parelli next 

Definitive proof that if you come on a forum and act like an illinformed idiot, you will be treated like one.

Just going off to beat my horses into submission whist jamming them in their sides with my spurs.


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## Amaranta (26 March 2013)

MurphysMinder said:



			And milk comes from cows, not from supermarkets!

Click to expand...


lol bless her she's learning more all the time


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## Amaranta (26 March 2013)

Crazy horse lady said:



			"Im a ranta", is an acronym of Amaranta.  

And yes, absolutely, I am a ranter.
		
Click to expand...

Oh dear sweetie, if you are going to try to use big words you need to know what they mean, I think the word you are looking for is anagram


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## Natch (26 March 2013)

Wow.

Im going to back away slowly now...


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## suestowford (26 March 2013)

Crazy horse lady said:



			"Im a ranta", is an acronym of Amaranta.  

And yes, absolutely, I am a ranter.
		
Click to expand...




Amaranta said:



			Oh dear sweetie, if you are going to try to use big words you need to know what they mean, I think the word you are looking for is anagram 

Click to expand...

And not even a good anagram. Seeing as it has an I in it and there is no I in amaranta.
It's more the sort of thing you see as a headline in The Sun where they think they're being clever and witty.


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## GrumpyHero (26 March 2013)

Amaranta said:



			Oh dear sweetie, if you are going to try to use big words you need to know what they mean, I think the word you are looking for is anagram 

Click to expand...

it's not even an anagram  there is no I in amaranta!


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## Crazy horse lady (26 March 2013)

Natch said:



			Wow.

Im going to back away slowly now...
		
Click to expand...

Me to.  I hope this episode has enlightened and entertained.  And remember folks.....Turner is GOING DOWN


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## Amymay (26 March 2013)

Let's hope not.


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## FionaM12 (26 March 2013)

Crazy horse lady said:



			Me to.  I hope this episode has enlightened and entertained.  And remember folks.....Turner is GOING DOWN  

Click to expand...

It might have entertained but who would it enlighten?  Not anyone else who took part in this thread, certainly.


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## Crazy horse lady (26 March 2013)

I hope this episode has enlightened and entertained. And remember folks.....Turner is GOING DOWN!! 

And I do hope you all find somewhere else to take your horses when he knocks this place down and builds houses on it, ssssiiiiigggghhhhhhh xx


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## FionaM12 (26 March 2013)

Crazy horse lady said:



			I hope this episode has enlightened and entertained. And remember folks.....Turner is GOING DOWN!! 

And I do hope you all find somewhere else to take your horses when he knocks this place down and builds houses on it, ssssiiiiigggghhhhhhh xx
		
Click to expand...

You are surely perfectly aware that there's no-one here whose horses are ever likely to be going to any abattoir. I don't believe you are _that_ unintelligent.









Are you?


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## Alec Swan (26 March 2013)

amymay said:



			Let's hope not.
		
Click to expand...

I really wouldn't worry too much amymay.  The world always sees the extremists of what ever persuasion,  for what they are.  That there is one person who refuses to look outside their narrow,  opinionated and ineffective world,  and see that the rest of Society suggests that we act for the greater good,  is of little consequence.  

You will also find that there are those who's opinions are of far greater importance to them,  than the subject in hand,  which is equine welfare.  Eventually we see them for what they are.  Gabbling women on face book have never achieved anything of value,  that I'm aware of.

Alec.


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## Emma86 (26 March 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			I really wouldn't worry too much amymay.  The world always sees the extremists of what ever persuasion,  for what they are.  That there is one person who refuses to look outside their narrow,  opinionated and ineffective world,  and see that the rest of Society suggests that we act for the greater good,  is of little consequence.  

You will also find that there are those who's opinions are of far greater importance to them,  than the subject in hand,  which is equine welfare.  Eventually we see them for what they are.  Gabbling women on face book have never achieved anything of value,  that I'm aware of.

Alec.
		
Click to expand...

Perfectly put Alec


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## suestowford (26 March 2013)

Crazy horse lady said:



			I hope this episode has enlightened and entertained.
		
Click to expand...

Not really. I don't find anything entertaining in the subject - do you?


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## Patterdale (26 March 2013)

CHL clearly thinks that she has had a great victory and managed to educate all of us harsh nasty horse murdering HHO people. That's how she's putting it across on her fb page anyway....

Oh and CHL - people on this thread have acknowledged the NEED for horse slaughter.....but NOT ONE of us has said that we would send our own horses. 
The people on this forum tend to be genuine horse lovers, who would always PTS at home (or 'murder at home' as you so nicely put it). However we recognise that not everyone has the means or inclination to do this, and here lies the need for the abattoirs; which should be humanely and fairly run. 

But these ideas have been here long before you so condescendingly 'educated' us 

Just glad Debbie didn't turn up as she hinted she might....!


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## Amaranta (26 March 2013)

FionaM12 said:



			You are surely perfectly aware that there's no-one here whose horses are ever likely to be going to any abattoir. I don't believe you are _that_ unintelligent.









Are you? 

Click to expand...

Oh judging from her posts I am sure she is


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## Bertieb123 (26 March 2013)

I agree, I too worry about charities that risk themselves getting this footage. They are super brave and committed to the welfare of animals. Why dont the authorities use this evidence to prosecute? Maybe because the fever and anger at the situation from the public dies down, maybe it costs too much money, maybe they have too many cases on their hands, etc etc.

To finnish I too am a horse lover. I too see the need for horse slaughter houses. I agree, it pees me off to say this but if I had the money I would open a super efficient well run slaughter house for horses. I would have it purposely built with correct care for the horses, I would create a totally non mechanical (as mush as one could) atmosphere. I do believe there are other abattoirs like this for cattle etc. All very calm and peaceful not like huge plants.

Thank you for your info on working in an abattoir its reassuring that it can be done correctly.

B, I fail to see how it disappoints you me looking on the internet for info, the days of me going to the library and leafing through books for reference are well gone. I prefer to use the internet.


CHL
The reason the authorities probably cannot use Hillsides footage is probably not legal to do so as it was done under trespass.

Glad you now not against the idea of abattoirs, and no I would not send my horses to an abattoir, but there is a need for it as long as we have all types of sport or leisure with horses we will have breeding and there is always going to horses/ponies not suitable for one reason or another, we cannot rescue them all.


I am glad you have realised not all abattoirs are bad and you would consider opening one yourself if you had the chance (properly regulated of course).

The reason I am disappointed that you use the internet (just a personal thought) to get all your info is because at the time you said you wanted to "educate" people of the fact, in my opinion you can only do that if you are qualified to do so, by that I mean have practical skills in the field or have studied Animal Welfare in practice, college or Uni (have qualifications on the subject) That is the only way to be taken seriously not just viewing footage on the net.

I am glad my comments have been some help.


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## FionaM12 (26 March 2013)

I find some of these posts confusing as people don't seem to be able to use the 




			quote
		
Click to expand...

 facility correctly. 

Just click QUOTE guys! Then we can tell who said what!


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## Bertieb123 (26 March 2013)

FionaM12 said:



			I find some of these posts confusing as people don't seem to be able to use the  facility correctly. 

Just click QUOTE guys! Then we can tell who said what! 

Click to expand...

Sorry about that, but I not a expert on the pc lol, didn't want to quote the whole thing, could say I am bit of a old dinosaur


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## FionaM12 (26 March 2013)

Bertieb123 said:



			Sorry about that, but I not a expert on the pc lol, didn't want to quote the whole thing, could say I am bit of a old dinosaur

Click to expand...

As long as you leave the [QUOTE = etc... ] and [ /QUOTE]  at the beginning and end, you can edit some of it out. Just don't accidentally delete the bracket parts. 

I'm a dinosaur too. My daughter despairs.


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## Moomin1 (26 March 2013)

mredd said:



			i can not believe what crap i read on here ....supposed to be a world of animal lovers ? yet you watch the proof of what goes on and the fact the fsa immune the vet and meat inspectors from prosecution, yet think this place deserves to carry on regardless ?
you really think this heartless family with the worst rep deserve a second chance ? do any of you know them ?? or know of them ?
yes the footage was taken over 80 days and was 120 hrs of film.. you really think they have just the 3 mins shown on sky ? pmsl...
derick him self was hoping shut this dump and build houses but planning was refused, what would have happened to welfare then ? do you think he gave a toss about that ? or was just trying line his pockets ? you heard about the rspca complaints about his treatment of ponies bought from the sale ?
you are aware of hewitts i take it not far from the redlion who slaughter horses, read there is only 2 in this country pmsl again research you will find 6, and another due to open and be licensed in cheshire very soon .. please do not preach on here slaughter houses ran by heartless cowboys are needed as they are not.. im sure after the fsa investigation you lot will be proved very wrong, with regards to campaigning to close then to bloody right, these people are not trying to ban slaughter, but do not want to see this heartless family fail again, they should not be allowed to trade after such serious welfare breeches, and i have read that if this place did close they support new management, not them who go round stumping fags out on horses faces just for a laugh !!  think all these key board warrios need get some facts straight you have enough time type ***** on here yet not enough do some simple research 

Click to expand...

That's given me a headache.


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## FionaM12 (26 March 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			That's given me a headache.
		
Click to expand...

Quite. Same repetitious nonsense, it doesn't seem worth trying to decipher.


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## FionaM12 (26 March 2013)

By the way, does anyone sensible here know Hewitts slaughter house? It's been mentioned a few times on this thread as slaughtering 200 horses a week. Yet googling it I could only find one site which said, 




			Species slaughtered: from cattle (bovine), sheep (ovine), pigs (porcine), goats (caprine), poultry, farmed game, wild birds, wild lagomorphs (rabbits, hares), wild ungulates (deer)
		
Click to expand...

 No mention of horses. 


http://www.tracingpaper.org.uk/foodtracer/abattoirs/north-west-england/


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## FionaM12 (26 March 2013)

mredd said:



			animal cruelty is nonsense ???

Click to expand...

Please don't be so silly. It's awfully boring.


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## Moomin1 (26 March 2013)

mredd said:



			thank god someone think's like us !!! or is it because we are local ? and we know about this family ??? and people just believe what they read 

Click to expand...

Forgive me if I am wrong, but nobody has suggested Turners should be allowed to carry on, or get away without being prosecuted.  

The point everyone is making is that slaughterhouses are vital for horse welfare, and they should be more closely monitored NOT closed.


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## FionaM12 (26 March 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			Forgive me if I am wrong, but nobody has suggested Turners should be allowed to carry on, or get away without being prosecuted.  

The point everyone is making is that slaughterhouses are vital for horse welfare, and they should be more closely monitored NOT closed.
		
Click to expand...

A point which has been clear throughout this thread, but our new troll chooses not to read that.


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## Moomin1 (26 March 2013)

mredd said:



			yes i know it !! you are right on the tracing paper site it does not state they slaughter horses, maybe never got round to changing it, they have slaughtered them for over 12 months and yes they do slaughter between 100-200 horses per week
		
Click to expand...

What about Hewitts?


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## FionaM12 (26 March 2013)

mredd said:



			yes i know it !! you are right on the tracing paper site it does not state they slaughter horses, maybe never got round to changing it, they have slaughtered them for over 12 months and yes they do slaughter between 100-200 horses per week
		
Click to expand...

Sorry, I did say anyone sensible.  Thanks anyway.


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## Moomin1 (26 March 2013)

mredd said:



			ok you google past cases like this. fact. the meat inspector and vet are present to monitor the slaughter line/process.. never in a single case have either one of these ever faced prosecution, why because the fsa state that they are not expected to watch the slaughter line 24/7.. to me this is bloody stupid what is the point of there presence then ? i would go as far to say as the whole thing is corrupt, did you know that john young (horsemeat scandal) high job in the fsa is now in fact on turners pay roll, employed just 3 weeks after the footage shown.
		
Click to expand...

So what would you like to happen?


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## Moomin1 (26 March 2013)

mredd said:



			yes i know it !! you are right on the tracing paper site it does not state they slaughter horses, maybe never got round to changing it, they have slaughtered them for over 12 months and yes they do slaughter between 100-200 horses per week
		
Click to expand...

No, I am asking what is the issue with Hewitts?

You mention them but don't say why.


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## lula (26 March 2013)

Turners should lose their license permanently. They have had too many chances over the years and too many incidences of appalling standards to welfare. Derek Turner himself has either turned a blind eye to the standards of his slaughter men in his abbatoir or he didn't know which i really dont believe.

Neither makes him a fit manager to continue.

the Red Lion should have new management brought in, strict welfare standards of slaughter practise, monitored regularly, CCTV installed in all areas, paperwork admin tightened up on passported animals and strong penalties imposed for non compliance.


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## Moomin1 (26 March 2013)

mredd said:



			i think its time every uk slaughter house installed cctv not just the 30% that have to date, if you look online you can find many videos in the uk of vile cases like this.
i do want derick turner stopped as like i said i have known of this family for years,
he makes no point in hiding his heartless ways, stumping fags out on foals faces in public !!
i think every slaughter house needs regulating better and that the fsa need to look at there part in it all, most places have 3 fsa staff on site so surly if 1 goes on a break etc the other 2 continue to monitor the line,
more education on how you get your slaughter licence it is to easy and you can slaughter on a provisional licence,
i rant on as employing polish workers who live on site and are paid £80 a day cash in hand is asking for trouble. i would say lots needs to be addressed but rome wasn't built in a day 

Click to expand...

Err.  Is that not what everyone on here is saying?!!


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## Moomin1 (26 March 2013)

mredd said:



			i mention it with response to previous posts about travelling horses miles if turners was closed 
and the posts i read of just 2-3 horse slaughter houses, when there is 7. 
had derick of had his way the place would have been closed 2 years ago. so i do not understand why people think welfare will be worse if this place is closed.
I hope the old goat gives up, and sells it on to people who have respect for animals not like this monster
changing the subject again did you see the animal aid footage taken at potters ?
only i would rather watch that where animals do not look distressed like they do on the redlion footage 

Click to expand...

I don't need to see it really, I  have shot animals myself in two separate slaughterhouses.  Not one of the animals was distress in either.


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## lula (26 March 2013)

mredd said:



			i mention it with response to previous posts about travelling horses miles if turners was closed 
and the posts i read of just 2-3 horse slaughter houses, when there is 7. 
had derick of had his way the place would have been closed 2 years ago. so i do not understand why people think welfare will be worse if this place is closed.
I hope the old goat gives up, and sells it on to people who have respect for animals not like this monster
changing the subject again did you see the animal aid footage taken at potters ?
only i would rather watch that where animals do not look distressed like they do on the redlion footage 

Click to expand...

mredd, people here ARE saying that Turner should lose his license. I dont think anyone here thinks any differently to you. 

Im not sure what all the histrionics are about..


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## guido16 (26 March 2013)

MurphysMinder said:



			And milk comes from cows, not from supermarkets!

Click to expand...

What?    Liar, get some bloomin proof before you make extreme claims like that.


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## lula (26 March 2013)

mredd said:




here here !!!!!!!!!!!            it seems it us locals who have the same opinion !! knowing the vile family
		
Click to expand...


im not local mredd, but i do agree with you.

i think you'll find that a lot of people on here think the same way tho. at least, i think they do.
Turner has had too many chances now for too many years. enough is enough. Sadly we do need the red lion but it needs a complete overhaul starting from the management to the slaughter men and support staff to the office.
everything needs to be thrown out and start again to rebuild the appalling rep Turner has given the Red Lion for many years. 

its sad we need horse abbatoirs at alkl in the UK but until over breeding is curbed and a world of issues are addressed, we do but that doesn't mean abbatoirs have to be places of horror.


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## Alec Swan (26 March 2013)

mredd said:



			i can not believe what crap i read on here ....supposed to be a world of animal lovers ? yet you watch the proof of what goes on and the fact the fsa immune the vet and meat inspectors from prosecution, yet think this place deserves to carry on regardless ?
you really think this heartless family with the worst rep deserve a second chance ? do any of you know them ?? or know of them ?
yes the footage was taken over 80 days and was 120 hrs of film.. you really think they have just the 3 mins shown on sky ? pmsl...
derick him self was hoping shut this dump and build houses but planning was refused, what would have happened to welfare then ? do you think he gave a toss about that ? or was just trying line his pockets ? you heard about the rspca complaints about his treatment of ponies bought from the sale ?
you are aware of hewitts i take it not far from the redlion who slaughter horses, read there is only 2 in this country pmsl again research you will find 6, and another due to open and be licensed in cheshire very soon .. please do not preach on here slaughter houses ran by heartless cowboys are needed as they are not.. im sure after the fsa investigation you lot will be proved very wrong, with regards to campaigning to close then to bloody right, these people are not trying to ban slaughter, but do not want to see this heartless family fail again, they should not be allowed to trade after such serious welfare breeches, and i have read that if this place did close they support new management, not them who go round stumping fags out on horses faces just for a laugh !!  think all these key board warrios need get some facts straight you have enough time type ***** on here yet not enough do some simple research 

Click to expand...

Rather than being offensive and offering what can only be considered as rather silly comments,  why not place your thoughts in order,  and list your points in a way that make sense?  

You are new to the forum,  apparently,  and following an introductory post,  advising everyone else that they are wrong,  few will take either you,  or your arguments seriously.

One opening point for you to consider;  NO ONE on this thread has justified the treatment of those horses which were filmed during their demise.  WE ALL want change,  but shouting and screaming and accusing others of being "key board warrios",  will achieve nothing.  

Join in a debate which has a generally forward momentum.

Alec.

ps.  and calm down dear.


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## Alec Swan (26 March 2013)

mredd said:



			ok you google past cases like this. fact. the meat inspector and vet are present to monitor the slaughter line/process.. never in a single case have either one of these ever faced prosecution, why because the fsa state that they are not expected to watch the slaughter line 24/7.. to me this is bloody stupid what is the point of there presence then ? ........
		
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Now there I agree with you.  See?  Common ground already! 

Alec.


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## Dab (26 March 2013)

lula said:



			i think you'll find that a lot of people on here think the same way tho. at least, i think they do.
Turner has had too many chances now for too many years. enough is enough. Sadly we do need the red lion but it needs a complete overhaul starting from the management to the slaughter men and support staff to the office.
everything needs to be thrown out and start again to rebuild the appalling rep Turner has given the Red Lion for many years. 

its sad we need horse abbatoirs at alkl in the UK but until over breeding is curbed and a world of issues are addressed, we do but that doesn't mean abbatoirs have to be places of horror.
		
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^^^ditto this

and Mredd kick-on, its an emotive subject and i admire your passion


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## Amaranta (26 March 2013)

mredd said:



			i think its time every uk slaughter house installed cctv not just the 30% that have to date, if you look online you can find many videos in the uk of vile cases like this.

Completely agree ALL slaughterhouses need CCTV
i do want derick turner stopped as like i said i have known of this family for years,
he makes no point in hiding his heartless ways, stumping fags out on foals faces in public !!

IF this is true then it is indeed disgusting
i think every slaughter house needs regulating better and that the fsa need to look at there part in it all, most places have 3 fsa staff on site so surly if 1 goes on a break etc the other 2 continue to monitor the line,

agreed
more education on how you get your slaughter licence it is to easy and you can slaughter on a provisional licence,

Good idea
i rant on as employing polish workers who live on site and are paid £80 a day cash in hand is asking for trouble. i would say lots needs to be addressed but rome wasn't built in a day 

Click to expand...

Careful when mentioning nationalities, in this way you will avoid any accusations of racism.

Now remind me why you are castigating us?


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## FionaM12 (26 March 2013)

mredd said:



			what a rude vile person you are !!!
i suppose its the trolls like you that give this forum a bad name ???
to much time in your boring life ??
to insult people who have a view different to your's ??
well bring it on chic...you just met your match pmsl

Click to expand...

Hooray! I've finally been called a troll. 

I'm a rude and vile one too it seems. Go me (as the young people say)!





eta Mind you, it seems I'm also chic. That means fashionable and stylish doesn't it? Well, thanks, I've not been called that before either...


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## Amaranta (26 March 2013)

mredd said:



			i mention it with response to previous posts about travelling horses miles if turners was closed 
and the posts i read of just 2-3 horse slaughter houses, when there is 7. 

On the FSA site it gives only 3 slaughterhouses licensed to kill horses, Hewitts we therefore only have your word for.
had derick of had his way the place would have been closed 2 years ago. so i do not understand why people think welfare will be worse if this place is closed.

Of course people are concerned about horse welfare, hence the hue and cry
I hope the old goat gives up, and sells it on to people who have respect for animals not like this monster

I agree with you *again*
changing the subject again did you see the animal aid footage taken at potters ?

Yes and saw nothing that concerned me regarding welfare, and before the poor chesnut is brought into the conversation, she waited 7 minutes whilst they got the chap with the licence to arrive, she arrived out of hours, if you want to blame anyone look towards the owner, but even then you do not actually know the full story.
only i would rather watch that where animals do not look distressed like they do on the redlion footage 

Click to expand...

I agree, no one wants to see distressed animals, and one of the things that stood out glaringly in the Potters video, was how calm the animals looked and what respect the slaughtermen showed, I changed my mind completely about slaughterhouses after watching that footage.

When people come on here preaching stuff we already know (I am talking about the brainless one here not you) and then try to 'educate' us in a very condescending manner, they will get people's backs up.


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## Alec Swan (26 March 2013)

Bertieb123 said:



			.......

....... I agree, it pees me off to say this but if I had the money I would open a super efficient well run slaughter house for horses. I would have it purposely built with correct care for the horses, I would create a totally non mechanical (as mush as one could) atmosphere. 

........
		
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There are plans afoot for such a facility.  Whether purpose built,  or a modification of an existing premises,  depends upon those who would fund it,  but the efforts are being made,  and it will be as ethical and as humane as it is possible.

The humane,  and so the correct slaughter of horses is reliant upon a series of both principles and environment.  Those doing the work need to have a demonstrable work ethic,  and a compassionate but practical system needs to be in place.

It CAN work,  but whether the charities will get behind it and offer support,  remains to be seen.  The more vitriolic the campaigner,  it seems,  the louder their voice.  Raised voices rarely work for the common good,  I've found.

Anyway,  we'll see what happens.

Alec.


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## Alec Swan (26 March 2013)

Dab said:



			.......

and Mredd kick-on, its an emotive subject and i admire your passion
		
Click to expand...

No one objects to passion,  providing that it arrives with a balanced argument.  Being offensive and making wild and unsubstantiated claims will achieve nothing but discord,  and benefit no one,  least of all the most outspoken. 

Alec.

ps.   
.

.

.

.

.

Yeah,  I know,  that's rich,  coming from me!  a.


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## Dab (26 March 2013)

errrmmmmm can someone please enlighten me as to what has happened to Mredd's posts???? have they been pulled??? if so why???


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## Amaranta (26 March 2013)

No idea 

unless is was a duplicate account


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## Alec Swan (26 March 2013)

Mredd was being a trifle silly,  in their opening attacks,  but I'm sure that given time,  and a degree of reasoning,  then the poster may well have calmed down,  and offered valid argument.

I suspect that Admin has been a little heavy handed.

Alec.


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## Alec Swan (26 March 2013)

mredd11 said:



			hi im back !! i guess someone must have reported me 
not sure why ?
maybe i did come across a little hostile but i have been attacked for a few weeks now (not on here) and did take a hostile post of 1 person lol
I suppose it comes down to being passionate about what i believe in.
I am no stranger to slaughter houses and as the same as everything in life.
some i have been in have been ran to precision. I believe they all should be.
21st century yet still treat animals like cave men ?
seen lots of distressing footage over the last few weeks cant believe i have been so naive all these years 
I think turner should be made a example of, and it be a lesson to the rest !! 
welfare should always be paramount, and the fsa well they are a waste of space 

Click to expand...

  BYE BYE!!

Next time,  A NONNY MOUSE!! 

Alec.

ETS,  Blimey O'Reilly,  that was quick!! a.

ETS11,  I'm pleased to see that mredd agrees with me that the FSA are not facing up to their work.  It isn't good enough. a.


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## FionaM12 (26 March 2013)

mredd11 said:



			hi im back !! i guess someone must have reported me 
not sure why ?
maybe i did come across a little hostile but i have been attacked for a few weeks now (not on here) and did take a hostile post of 1 person lol
I suppose it comes down to being passionate about what i believe in.
I am no stranger to slaughter houses and as the same as everything in life.
some i have been in have been ran to precision. I believe they all should be.
21st century yet still treat animals like cave men ?
seen lots of distressing footage over the last few weeks cant believe i have been so naive all these years 
I think turner should be made a example of, and it be a lesson to the rest !! 
welfare should always be paramount, and the fsa well they are a waste of space 

Click to expand...

I think everyone here would agree with most of what you say. The mad thing about this thread, is we're pretty much all on the same side, yet people are coming here ranting against us.  It's rather confusing.


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## guido16 (26 March 2013)

Oh. Deep joy, the troll is back. 

I really need to start dredging under these bridges, it must be that time of year when HHO contract me to dredge the bridges.....
where the heck is shils when you need her.....


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## lula (26 March 2013)

guido16 said:



			Oh. Deep joy, the troll is back. 

I really need to start dredging under these bridges, it must be that time of year when HHO contract me to dredge the bridges.....
where the heck is shils when you need her.....
		
Click to expand...


your understanding of the word troll is wrong.

i dont believe mredd is here to cause trouble or stir things up for the sake of it - the definition of a troll. Rather, just a little ranty and defensive in her argument.


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## Alec Swan (26 March 2013)

guido16 said:



			.......

where the heck is shils when you need her.....
		
Click to expand...

The last I heard she was engrossed with a FWB.  Perhaps it's all a bit much for her,  the poor old thing! 

Alec.


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## FionaM12 (26 March 2013)

lula said:



			your understanding of the word troll is wrong.

i dont believe mredd is here to cause trouble or stir things up for the sake of it - the definition of a troll. Rather, just a little ranty and defensive in her argument.
		
Click to expand...

I'm not sure. I suspect she and a few others are goading each other on a fb group to come over here and wind us up.


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## guido16 (26 March 2013)

lula said:



			your understanding of the word troll is wrong.

i dont believe mredd is here to cause trouble or stir things up for the sake of it - the definition of a troll. Rather, just a little ranty and defensive in her argument.
		
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Lula, my understanding of the troll, who she is, what she is doing and what she is stirring, as per her FB page is totally clear to me.

Therefore, TROLL is an accurate description of her. 

Anyway, since the troll has been banned, opened a new account, I will say "see ya troll" to her as TFC is likely to drop kick her somewhere very quickly...


Naughty troll showing total disrespect to TFC.


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## lula (26 March 2013)

FionaM12 said:



			I'm not sure. I suspect she and a few others are goading each other on a fb group to come over here and wind us up. 

Click to expand...

ah, well that's entirely possible and very likely actually. i take my comment back.

i dont blame her for disrespecting the TFC. (watch me get a ban now!) - by trying to sneak in under a different name. its done on loads of forums but i appreciate its not going to make the TFC happy.

The trick is tho to use a bit of savvy and not come back as exactly the same person and start off where you left off!!


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## Dab (26 March 2013)

what a pity there has been a need to 'get rid' of Mredd from this thread....this Forum is a rich tapestry of posters verging on the mad, the bad and the utterly insane, the also rans, the good, the riteous, those that can spell and those that can't, the incoherent, the coherent, the sane and everything inbetween  who all have something to offer 

i suspect that somebody doesnt like the 'T' word being banded about, but at least the posts survive in 'quotes'.


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## Amaranta (26 March 2013)

FionaM12 said:



			I'm not sure. I suspect she and a few others are goading each other on a fb group to come over here and wind us up. 

Click to expand...

Well if that is what is happening you would have thought that they would send over a rather more erudite and informed member than CHL!


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## FionaM12 (26 March 2013)

Amaranta said:



			Well if that is what is happening you would have thought that they would send over a rather more erudite and informed member than CHL!
		
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I don't think they're the brightest crayons in the box. 


(Although, I think those probably were the best they had...)


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## Amaranta (26 March 2013)

Well she's gone again - how quick was that!


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## FionaM12 (26 March 2013)

Amaranta said:



			Well she's gone again - how quick was that!
		
Click to expand...

I'm sure they'll send some more to "educate" us all soon. 



It's very silly, we all pretty much agree about improving conditions for horse slaughter, for which there is a sad and regrettable need (although we don't all want to make personal remarks against the Turner family).  Yet these people from the fb group want to come and shout us down and accuse us all of being horse murderers. 

In this case, they really are trolls. I suppose we should just ignore them all.


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## guido16 (26 March 2013)

Fiona, I fear that the "red" crayon may have been the most educated one in the box.....roll on the next one...


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## Bertieb123 (26 March 2013)

FionaM12 said:



			By the way, does anyone sensible here know Hewitts slaughter house? It's been mentioned a few times on this thread as slaughtering 200 horses a week. Yet googling it I could only find one site which said,  No mention of horses. 


http://www.tracingpaper.org.uk/foodtracer/abattoirs/north-west-england/

Click to expand...

y
yes on the FSA Web site they listed as slaughtering solipeds but not sure if they active now.


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## Bertieb123 (26 March 2013)

OK AFTER POSTING WHAT I THOUGHT MAY BE INFORMATIVE AND POSITIVE POSTS I HAVE DECIDED THAT I WILL NO LONGER PARTICIPATE. I WOULD RATHER WATCH FROM A DISTANCE. MY CONCIOUS IS CLEAR AND I HAVE MY VIEWS, AND I AM NO LONGER GOING TO POST. GOOD LUCK ALL. I REALLY THOUGHT THAT THIS FORUM WOULD BE SENSIBLE AS IT WHAT I USED TO CALL MY BIBLE (HORSE AND HOUND I MEAN BY THIS)HOW TIMES HAVE CHANGEDx


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## FionaM12 (26 March 2013)

Bertieb123 said:



			OK AFTER POSTING WHAT I THOUGHT MAY BE INFORMATIVE AND POSITIVE POSTS I HAVE DECIDED THAT I WILL NO LONGER PARTICIPATE. I WOULD RATHER WATCH FROM A DISTANCE. MY CONCIOUS IS CLEAR AND I HAVE MY VIEWS, AND I AM NO LONGER GOING TO POST. GOOD LUCK ALL. I REALLY THOUGHT THAT THIS FORUM WOULD BE SENSIBLE AS IT WHAT I USED TO CALL MY BIBLE (HORSE AND HOUND I MEAN BY THIS)HOW TIMES HAVE CHANGEDx
		
Click to expand...

 I never understand the need for posts like this. If you don't want to post again, absolutely fine. I don't understand the big shouty announcement though.


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## amandap (26 March 2013)

Bertieb123 said:



			y
yes on the FSA Web site they listed as slaughtering solipeds but not sure if they active now.
		
Click to expand...

That's a new word I've learned today. 
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Soliped


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## Alec Swan (27 March 2013)

Bertieb123 said:



			y
yes on the FSA Web site they listed as slaughtering solipeds but not sure if they active now.
		
Click to expand...

I think that you need to understand that there are those abattoirs which whilst still licensed,  and listed as such,  are in effect mothballed for the purpose of equine slaughter.  There are,  so I understand,  a dozen or so redundant companies and premises,  dotted around the country.

There are also licensed horse slaughterers (knackermen to you and I),  and again,  whilst they operate from a premises,  they are not licensed for the purpose of supplying meat in any form,  except perhaps for the supply to zoos,  for their flesh eating inhabitants.  Such companies invariably incinerate those carcasses which they collect.

The only "Operational" equine abattoirs which are trading as such,  are Turners and Potters,  as far as I'm aware.  

Alec.


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## Amaranta (27 March 2013)

There is a third Alec, in North Yorkshire apparently 

I only knew about Potters and Turners until recently, but the lists on the FSA indicate 3 as well.


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## ann-jen (27 March 2013)

http://www.8hours.eu/manifesto_of_malta/
Interesting following this thread!


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## lula (27 March 2013)

FionaM12 said:



 I never understand the need for posts like this. If you don't want to post again, absolutely fine. I don't understand the big shouty announcement though. 

Click to expand...

its called a flounce fiona 

no point having one if you cant draw the maximum attention to it by announcing it first.


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## Amaranta (27 March 2013)

Amaranta said:



			There is a third Alec, in North Yorkshire apparently 

I only knew about Potters and Turners until recently, but the lists on the FSA indicate 3 as well.
		
Click to expand...

Hmm phrased that wrongly, I mean to say I only knew about Potters and Turners and found out about the third through the FSA site doh!


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## Natch (27 March 2013)

amandap said:



			That's a new word I've learned today. 
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Soliped

Click to expand...


Me too - see, this thread is educational 

I thought this would be of relevance to this thread. An article in H&H about making provision for your horse at the end of his days: http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/397/316333.html and the fallen stock scheme, which sounds like it would be a relatively low cost way to dispose of your horse:
http://www.nfsco.co.uk/about-the-scheme.php#1_2


Of course the sad thing is that this forum doesn't tend to reach those who really need to see the above


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## david c (27 March 2013)

I thought this would be of relevance to this thread. An article in H&H about making provision for your horse at the end of his days: http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/397/316333.html and the fallen stock scheme, which sounds like it would be a relatively low cost way to dispose of your horse:
http://www.nfsco.co.uk/about-the-scheme.php#1_2




yeah I wonder that too, but unfortunately not - by registering you get a list of the local knackermen and the prices they charge - so no reduction in costs unfortunately. Seems to be a way of DEFRA earning money and information imo - you have to pay to register then pay for an annual compliance statement and extra for monthly statements. So not only do they earn a bit for this, but also they know exactly what / how much stock you've lost / disposed of.

The passport system has done absolutely nothing for horse welfare, which if I recall correctly was one of the propaganda selling points of it. Also not so many years ago the knackerman would pay you (albeit a very small amount) to destroy the horse / take it away. Whilst this is distasteful as is sending horses to Potters / Turners, surely that is better for horse welfare for the ones with no future than the downward spiral of dragging them from sale to sale / home to home....


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## MerrySherryRider (27 March 2013)

david c said:



			I thought this would be of relevance to this thread. An article in H&H about making provision for your horse at the end of his days: http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/397/316333.html and the fallen stock scheme, which sounds like it would be a relatively low cost way to dispose of your horse:
http://www.nfsco.co.uk/about-the-scheme.php#1_2




yeah I wonder that too, but unfortunately not - by registering you get a list of the local knackermen and the prices they charge - so no reduction in costs unfortunately. Seems to be a way of DEFRA earning money and information imo - you have to pay to register then pay for an annual compliance statement and extra for monthly statements. So not only do they earn a bit for this, but also they know exactly what / how much stock you've lost / disposed of.
		
Click to expand...

Agree with you. I think the H&H article was misleading.

 It's a not-for-profit organisation that charges subscribers for a list that anyone can source from their vet. 
 And the point of that is ?


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## Natch (27 March 2013)

Ah. Hadn't realised that


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## amandap (27 March 2013)

FionaM12 said:



			I think everyone here would agree with most of what you say. The mad thing about this thread, is we're pretty much all on the same side, yet people are coming here ranting against us.  It's rather confusing.
		
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Yes, and yes it is. 

Yes, Natch, this thread has been educational for lots of reasons.


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## touchstone (27 March 2013)

As I understand it, the fallen stock scheme is free for horse owners to join, when you will be sent a list of disposal options and prices.   When you've chosen the service you wish to use you will pay the following month by direct debit, so it gives horse owners in a difficult financial situation a month to get the money sorted rather than paying straight away.   You are only sent a statement when you use the service.


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## david c (27 March 2013)

touchstone said:



			As I understand it, the fallen stock scheme is free for horse owners to join, when you will be sent a list of disposal options and prices.   When you've chosen the service you wish to use you will pay the following month by direct debit, so it gives horse owners in a difficult financial situation a month to get the money sorted rather than paying straight away.   You are only sent a statement when you use the service.
		
Click to expand...

ahh - just checked their website - you are right for horses - this is what it said:-

) On registering for the Scheme, and setting-up the Direct Debit mandate, the horse owner will be given details of collectors and premises operating in their area, including prices for a variety of collection and disposal services such as:
disposal only;
putting-down the animal by the collector;
collecting an animal after it has been put-down by a vet;
an urgent request for attendance;
out of hours attendance;
roadside attendance.
incineration and return of ashes.

 2) Registering for the scheme is free.

3) On requiring the service, the owner will contact their preferred collector and make the required arrangements.

4) Members will receive a statement from NFSCo summarising the services used. A NFSCo administration fee of £1.75 for members who receive statements by post, or a reduced fee of £1.25 for those opting for email invoicing, will be applied to the monthly statement  but only if a member uses the service in the month.

5) Payment will then be collected 14 days later by direct debit.


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## Alec Swan (31 March 2013)

david c,

so as I understand your post,  the only benefit that I can see,  is that you get a 14 day delay in settling the account.  Am I right?

I also notice that the "Collector" is to put in their bill to the NFSSCo at the end of each month,  which will be paid up to 4 weeks after that.  I pay my local knackerman upon collection,  and on the day.

I also wonder if the fallen stock scheme is sill in it's original format,  or if it's been tweeked.  It does seem to be a rather protracted and cumbersome system,  for so little apparent benefit.  

It may well be that the Company was formed to deal with any future National disease outbreak,  such as FMD.  Don't know,  just pondering!

Alec.


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