# Update: Court it is then....



## Illusion100 (31 August 2015)

Following on from this thread,

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?707296-Being-charged-£100-to-poo-pick!!!!

the remaining monies have not been returned within the reasonable timeframe I specified. I have made it very clear that if this occurred I would proceed with Legal Action/Court.

I believe this is an open and shut case in my favour, let's see if you agree or not!

My notice period ended on the 14th August. On the 26th July, I emailed YO expressing that I would have the stable/paddock/my property cleared/removed before that date, thereby fulfilling my contractual obligations.

On the 7th August the YO texted and gave me an ultimatum, come back again to clear the paddock to her satisfaction by the end of the following day or they would and charge me for it. Unfortunately, I was unable to drop everything to satisfy her demand.

Therefore the YO has fraudulently retained money from my Deposit by charging (extortionately) for work carried out before the end of my Notice period, even though I had paid to retain use of these facilities until the 14th August.

BOOM! Can't argue that surely?!


----------



## Michen (31 August 2015)

No and good luck!


----------



## ester (31 August 2015)

good luck both of you!


----------



## Illusion100 (31 August 2015)

Error


----------



## Amymay (31 August 2015)

Good luck!! Xx


----------



## Illusion100 (31 August 2015)

ester said:



			good luck both of you!
		
Click to expand...

Thanks Ester!


----------



## Mike007 (31 August 2015)

Sadly things are never that simple . I hope you do win,and so I also hope you have sufficient hard evidence to back your claim.


----------



## Michen (31 August 2015)




----------



## Peregrine Falcon (31 August 2015)

edited just to say "GOOD LUCK!"


----------



## Illusion100 (31 August 2015)

Edited: Thanks PF!


----------



## Michen (31 August 2015)

PMSL


----------



## Fidgety (31 August 2015)

Just had a hellish experience with a car insurer - the formal warning of a countdown to placing the matter with the County Court from me + an invoice for my time dealing with the matter was the catalyst.  They had been forewarned that they would be charged (heftily) for my admin time after a certain date, along with my payment terms and this focused their minds when they eventually realised that their standard threat of debt collectors/CCJs wasn't bringing on the desired attack of the vapours on my part.  We came out with a mutual agreement/payment and the matter was settled to each side's satisfaction.  

If you know you're in the right go for it!    Good luck xx


----------



## Illusion100 (31 August 2015)

Mike007 said:



			Sadly things are never that simple . I hope you do win,and so I also hope you have sufficient hard evidence to back your claim.
		
Click to expand...

What would you suggest I need? I want to be prepared as much as I can anyway and would appreciate any opinion/advice.


----------



## D66 (31 August 2015)

Good luck. &#128512;


----------



## WelshD (31 August 2015)

I think its crazy that you are planning to do this to be honest especially given that you have admitted on here that you did not clear the paddock to the YO satisfaction as much of the poo was ground in by your horse fence walking

I am with you 100% on your dissatisfaction regarding the previous set up and paddock allocation but I think you are on dodgy ground here especially if they have been clever enough to get some pictures before the clean up was done


----------



## Mike007 (31 August 2015)

Illusion100 said:



			What would you suggest I need? I want to be prepared as much as I can anyway and would appreciate any opinion/advice.
		
Click to expand...

What the court will want to see is Firstly ,what were the contractual obligations , anything in writing will carry infinitely more weight than reference to verbal communications. The old fashioned ,recorded delivery letter is a wonderful thing. sadly there is a temptation in disputes to argue over the phone. My advice to anyone is ; Get it in writing and write a letter that you would be happy to have read out in court. Text  and Email are not recognized by the courts as written evidence. Fax or letter are. Be prepared to prove you are in the right . have everything to hand . The court will need proof (he who asserts must prove). You must also show that you have acted reasonably. The worst thing you could do is walk into court and expect the court to believe you and understand ,simply because YOU believe and understand. SO ! Get your ducks in a row and go get em!


----------



## Illusion100 (31 August 2015)

WelshD said:



			I think its crazy that you are planning to do this to be honest especially given that you have admitted on here that you did not clear the paddock to the YO satisfaction as much of the poo was ground in by your horse fence walking

I am with you 100% on your dissatisfaction regarding the previous set up and paddock allocation but I think you are on dodgy ground here especially if they have been clever enough to get some pictures before the clean up was done
		
Click to expand...

The paddock was poo picked and track raked daily. Yes I found it difficult due to having Fibro but it was done anyway. Clearing the paddock to the satisfaction of an 'average' YO and clearing it to an unrealistic standard are different things altogether. Anyway, I feel I am not at fault here. Even if a single pile of poo had been found hidden in the longer grass, it would be deemed that I have not cleared the paddock!


----------



## Illusion100 (31 August 2015)

Mike007 said:



			What the court will want to see is Firstly ,what were the contractual obligations , anything in writing will carry infinitely more weight than reference to verbal communications. The old fashioned ,recorded delivery letter is a wonderful thing. sadly there is a temptation in disputes to argue over the phone. My advice to anyone is ; Get it in writing and write a letter that you would be happy to have read out in court. Text  and Email are not recognized by the courts as written evidence. Fax or letter are. Be prepared to prove you are in the right . have everything to hand . The court will need proof (he who asserts must prove). You must also show that you have acted reasonably. The worst thing you could do is walk into court and expect the court to believe you and understand ,simply because YOU believe and understand. SO ! Get your ducks in a row and go get em!
		
Click to expand...

I'm confused, I am lead to believe texts and emails are admissible as evidence? The Police recently issued an Harassment Warning against my OH's ex wife based on text message evidence?


----------



## Mike007 (31 August 2015)

Illusion100 said:



			I'm confused, I am lead to believe texts and emails are admissible as evidence? The Police recently issued an Harassment Warning against my OH's ex wife based on text message evidence?
		
Click to expand...

They do not count as written evidence. Sending someone a text or email is not proof of service.


----------



## Ladyinred (31 August 2015)

Good luck! Let's hope the notice of court will be sufficient to scare her into paying up andmaybe treating people with a bit more respect. Crazy bat!


----------



## ILuvCowparsely (31 August 2015)

Illusion100 said:



			I'm confused, I am lead to believe texts and emails are admissible as evidence? The Police recently issued an Harassment Warning against my OH's ex wife based on text message evidence?
		
Click to expand...

can you print out the conversation/ text to her phone Illusion??? and any photos voice mail etc.  Any copies of the letters to her which you printed off and signed???

 or the contract you signed when you moved there??? judges like evidence any kind of factual evidence


----------



## Illusion100 (31 August 2015)

Mike007 said:



			They do not count as written evidence. Sending someone a text or email is not proof of service.
		
Click to expand...

So in that case the YO has no proof she asked me to clear the paddock and that she has no proof she was unhappy about the standard? Pictures taken on a phone are unreliable evidence as they can be tampered with, so therefore there is no proof against me either?


----------



## Illusion100 (31 August 2015)

HGA-12 said:



			can you print out the conversation/ text to her phone Illusion??? and any photos voice mail etc.  Any copies of the letters to her which you printed off and signed???
		
Click to expand...

Conversations done via text/email, I have full records of any communication, (including other topics such as day of arrival, etc). I can print the texts directly off my iPhone? We never wrote letters to each other and the only signed document is the Contract. It was the YO that started communicating 'officially' via email?


----------



## Mike007 (31 August 2015)

A good point, they are no better than your phone pictures  etc. What you need is to create a well structured set of arguments that you can back up. If others have had the same problem ,ask them if they will give evidence to that fact. But above all ,dont think you wont have to work and think clearly to win ,because you will!


----------



## ILuvCowparsely (31 August 2015)

I must say I do find it strange you have to pay a deposit when you moved there, what was the deposit for???

Surely the money you pay is one months livery upfront so when you leave that money is used to finish your rent and allow YO  to find someone else.


Must say that in watching many many court cases  Judges like your answer to be short and too the point, so practice answers  on paper and don't let the other side get you riled or trick you into anything.


----------



## Mike007 (31 August 2015)

A months livery/rent up front is basically a deposit.


----------



## ILuvCowparsely (31 August 2015)

Mike007 said:



			A months livery/rent up front is basically a deposit.
		
Click to expand...

Yes I know that but if Illusion left when her rent was used up then the YO cannot keep anything.

 The only time an owner leaves before the rent used up is usually serious disagreement and in those cases the monies are forfeited, as the Livery owner chooses to leave before the 1 months livery notice.   Here the YO is withholding the monies, when she should really just suck it up and move on.

 I am led to believe that this deposit is monies separate to the 1 months livery up front.  Some yards hold a deposit so if livery leaves before her months notice or just up and leaves then the YO has a months rent  up front, instead of billing the owner a months notice when that Owner gives written notice AND if this fall within the duration of a livery month than part of that remaining livery is used as notice and the additional added and billed to make up the rent month


----------



## Mike007 (31 August 2015)

HGA-12 said:



			Yes I know that but if Illusion left when her rent was used up then the YO cannot keep anything.

 The only time an owner leaves before the rent used up is usually serious disagreement and in those cases the monies are forfeited, as the Livery owner chooses to leave before the 1 months livery notice.   Here the YO is withholding the monies, when she should really just suck it up and move on.
		
Click to expand...

No, its quite common to have to pay a months livery, and pay ahead for a month . So if you give notice at the beginning of the month , and pay your normal payment, on departure you are entitled to the deposit. Unfortunately this is often a scam by yard owners. Incidentaly ,if I were preparing for this case ,I would have all these financial transactions laid out so that the court can see clearly the situation,and they will also take notice if the client is a problem payer ar if they pay on the dot each month, just a little point ,but it all helps construct a case.


----------



## ILuvCowparsely (31 August 2015)

Mike007 said:



			No, its quite common to have to pay a months livery, and pay ahead for a month . So if you give notice at the beginning of the month , and pay your normal payment, on departure you are entitled to the deposit. Unfortunately this is often a scam by yard owners. Incidentaly ,if I were preparing for this case ,I would have all these financial transactions laid out so that the court can see clearly the situation,and they will also take notice if the client is a problem payer ar if they pay on the dot each month, just a little point ,but it all helps construct a case.
		
Click to expand...

Well down this area a deposit  is never required, only a small deposit  when they say they want the stable  and that is deducted of their first months rent.    Never a months deposit and a months livery up front, un called for IMO

If they give notice 1 week into a livery rent month already paid  then only 3 weeks they are billed for.

totally wrong IMO specially if you have 2 horses  and pay 2 horses 1 month bill and 2 months deposit up front.


Extortionate cost  that...................


----------



## Mike007 (31 August 2015)

HGA-12 said:



			Well down this area a deposit  is never required, only a small deposit  when they say they want the stable  and that is deducted of their first months rent.    Never a deposit and a months livery up front, un called for IMO

If they give notice 1 week into a livery rent month already paid  then only 3 weeks they are billed for.
		
Click to expand...

I agree,yet that is the way it is so often ,and why it is so open to abuse by yard owners who have long ago spent the deposit and dont want to stump up for it now.


----------



## Illusion100 (31 August 2015)

Mike007 said:



			I agree,yet that is the way it is so often ,and why it is so open to abuse by yard owners who have long ago spent the deposit and dont want to stump up for it now.
		
Click to expand...

The Deposit was 5 weeks livery, just FYI for you all!

Have a look at this Mike http://www.aboutsmallclaims.co.uk/evidence-small-courts-rules.html

What do you reckon?


----------



## WelshD (31 August 2015)

Deposits seem to be more and more commonly asked for these days

I guess its an offshoot from the housing rental market where one is normal to rectify any damage not put right by the tenant. Maybe its a sign of the lack of respect that people have for what are essentially expensive facilities (a general comment not a slur on the OP I hasten to add)


----------



## ILuvCowparsely (31 August 2015)

Well thank god this yard never asks for a deposit  and months livery up front that is all I can say.  As it is wrong, as one months livery up front is more than enough deposit without asking for added monies


----------



## Mike007 (31 August 2015)

Illusion100 said:



			The Deposit was 5 weeks livery, just FYI for you all!

Have a look at this Mike http://www.aboutsmallclaims.co.uk/evidence-small-courts-rules.html

What do you reckon?
		
Click to expand...

Did you see the note about the type and quality of evidence, thats what you need.good quality evidence. If you have to explain to a court about poo picking ,then be able to cite documentry evidence about the subject and as to what the intent is.


----------



## Illusion100 (31 August 2015)

HGA-12 said:



			Well down this area a deposit  is never required, only a small deposit  when they say they want the stable  and that is deducted of their first months rent.    Never a months deposit and a months livery up front, un called for IMO

If they give notice 1 week into a livery rent month already paid  then only 3 weeks they are billed for.

totally wrong IMO specially if you have 2 horses  and pay 2 horses 1 month bill and 2 months deposit up front.

Extortionate cost  that...................
		
Click to expand...

This was the 1st time I have ever had to pay a Deposit for any yard. Current YO didn't want a deposit/livery in advance but I paid 4 weeks in advance anyway. Also at previous, previous yard I also paid a months livery in advance even though it wasn't required. I just like to have a month paid in advance where I can in case I had an accident/illness and wouldn't want to be in arrears. However that's my personal choice.


----------



## Dave the dog (31 August 2015)

A deposit paid without a written contract is essentially an unsecured loan.. If It's less than £1000 then walk away, court costs will easily exceed this. Judge will have a dim view of the case if there is no legal representation, whose bill will exceed this. If you sue for malpractice then you need others in the same boat that will share the cost thus lending weight to your case, plus evidence. The law is not fair, it's justice. And the law will not allow you to be seen to reap revenge however much you feel you have been cheated.


----------



## Illusion100 (31 August 2015)

Mike007 said:



			Did you see the note about the type and quality of evidence, thats what you need.good quality evidence. If you have to explain to a court about poo picking ,then be able to cite documentry evidence about the subject and as to what the intent is.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, I have and am continuing to gather evidence regarding this. I will probably be significantly over prepared but I'd rather that. I plan to leave no stone unturned regarding many angles.


----------



## Illusion100 (31 August 2015)

Dave the dog said:



			A deposit paid without a written contract is essentially an unsecured loan.. If It's less than £1000 then walk away, court costs will easily exceed this. Judge will have a dim view of the case if there is no legal representation, whose bill will exceed this. If you sue for malpractice then you need others in the same boat that will share the cost thus lending weight to your case, plus evidence. The law is not fair, it's justice. And the law will not allow you to be seen to reap revenge however much you feel you have been cheated.
		
Click to expand...

Deposit was paid via a written, dated, signed contract by YO and myself. Revenge is not my motivation.


----------



## Mike007 (31 August 2015)

Unlike Dave the dog ,I have found the law to be pretty well fair and unbiased and i suspect my experience is somewhat greater. This is the small claims court ,a monthys deposit is not a trivial sum for this court (or indeed for any court ,but if you proceed in another court ,you had better bloodywell win or the costs will crucify you)


----------



## Illusion100 (31 August 2015)

WelshD said:



			Deposits seem to be more and more commonly asked for these days

I guess its an offshoot from the housing rental market where one is normal to rectify any damage not put right by the tenant. Maybe its a sign of the lack of respect that people have for what are essentially expensive facilities (a general comment not a slur on the OP I hasten to add)
		
Click to expand...

Oooh, ooh, no.....I will have to take that personally!


----------



## Illusion100 (31 August 2015)

Mike007 said:



			Unlike Dave the dog ,I have found the law to be pretty well fair and unbiased and i suspect my experience is somewhat greater. This is the small claims court ,a monthys deposit is not a trivial sum for this court (or indeed for any court ,but if you proceed in another court ,you had better bloodywell win or the costs will crucify you)
		
Click to expand...

I only intend to proceed through Small Claims Court.


----------



## SO1 (31 August 2015)

Texts and emails have definitely been used in court as evidence as have verbal agreements too.

I think the difficulty is going to be neither of you have good evidence of the state of the field after you left. My understanding is that the contract says you have to clear the field on a daily basis otherwise you would be charged £40 per day. If you did not clear the field on the day you left then you broke the contract in regard of clearing the field on a daily basis regardless of the fact that you had paid for the full month and still had a couple of weeks left. If you then did not come back to finish off the poo picking until 3 days later the YO may have charged you for every day that the field was not poo picked not for the just amount of work that it took to do it.


----------



## ILuvCowparsely (31 August 2015)

You sound pretty much sorted and just need to check if there is anything else you can do.


I have never been in a yard where they asked for livery and a deposit and that wont happen here thank god.


----------



## Dave the dog (31 August 2015)

Illusion, I meant the courts perceived motivation for your action! There is too much sharp practice in this world because the law does not facilitate a reaction to it unless the evidence is overwhelming. I wish you luck, but proceed with caution. I would say that the sums involved are directly related to the alacrity of the law, in my experience.


----------



## Echo Bravo (31 August 2015)

But she hadn't broken the agreement, to do the poo picking up and if she had moved her horses the only poo she needed to pick up was from the last day her horse was in the paddock. I have 3 horses in 5 acres and they produce 2 barrowfulls a day so 1 horse, every 2 days?. If she has photos of the field while her horse was there, so much the better.


----------



## Illusion100 (31 August 2015)

SO1 said:



			Texts and emails have definitely been used in court as evidence as have verbal agreements too.

I think the difficulty is going to be neither of you have good evidence of the state of the field after you left. My understanding is that the contract says you have to clear the field on a daily basis otherwise you would be charged £40 per day. If you did not clear the field on the day you left then you broke the contract in regard of clearing the field on a daily basis regardless of the fact that you had paid for the full month and still had a couple of weeks left. If you then did not come back to finish off the poo picking until 3 days later the YO may have charged you for every day that the field was not poo picked not for the just amount of work that it took to do it.
		
Click to expand...

I understand what you are saying however it is unnecessary to poo pick a paddock daily if the field is unoccupied. There is nothing in the contract to state the paddock must be poo picked on the day the horse is removed.


----------



## SO1 (31 August 2015)

2 out of the 3 yards I have been on have asked for nearly a month livery as a deposit I expect that is because they were DIY yards where people bought hay, bedding and services for YO so if there was any difficulty in paying for these then the deposit would cover it.

I am now on a part livery yard and so all inclusive paid in advance which means YO would not be chasing payment for services/hay/bedding etc if someone gives notice and less risk in terms of delayed payments for services etc slow so I did not have to pay a months deposit.



HGA-12 said:



			You sound pretty much sorted and just need to check if there is anything else you can do.


I have never been in a yard where they asked for livery and a deposit and that wont happen here thank god.
		
Click to expand...


----------



## Mike007 (31 August 2015)

SO1 said:



			Texts and emails have definitely been used in court as evidence as have verbal agreements too.

I think the difficulty is going to be neither of you have good evidence of the state of the field after you left. My understanding is that the contract says you have to clear the field on a daily basis otherwise you would be charged £40 per day. If you did not clear the field on the day you left then you broke the contract in regard of clearing the field on a daily basis regardless of the fact that you had paid for the full month and still had a couple of weeks left. If you then did not come back to finish off the poo picking until 3 days later the YO may have charged you for every day that the field was not poo picked not for the just amount of work that it took to do it.
		
Click to expand...

For me ,the single biggest weakness in the yard owners case is the failure to give sufficient notice that the work carried out (poo picking) was in their opinion ,substandard. Just as the OP has to request repayment of the deposit twice prior to issuing the court proceedings , the YO should have given the op sufficient time to respond. The OP should line up evidence to show that any delay was not detrimental to the interests of the YO . Poo in a field is normal, continued failure to clear is a health hazard for horses. Why? endoparasites.


----------



## ILuvCowparsely (31 August 2015)

SO1 said:



			2 out of the 3 yards I have been on have asked for nearly a month livery as a deposit I expect that is because they were DIY yards where people bought hay, bedding and services for YO so if there was any difficulty in paying for these then the deposit would cover it.

I am now on a part livery yard and so all inclusive paid in advance which means YO would not be chasing payment for services/hay/bedding etc if someone gives notice and less risk in terms of delayed payments for services etc slow so I did not have to pay a months deposit.
		
Click to expand...

As I said around here they only ask a livery month up front no extra unless it is bedding.  

No deposit so to speak required here.


----------



## Illusion100 (31 August 2015)

Dave the dog said:



			Illusion, I meant the courts perceived motivation for your action! There is too much sharp practice in this world because the law does not facilitate a reaction to it unless the evidence is overwhelming. I wish you luck, but proceed with caution. I would say that the sums involved are directly related to the alacrity of the law, in my experience.
		
Click to expand...

I appreciate your views and please don't think I'm having a pop! I'm going to proceed with Legal Action because I believe my money is being fraudulently retained. This is the 1st time I've had to do this as I've never before had such a hideous experience/treatment by a YO towards both myself and my horse. I do not believe charging £100 to poo pick a cleared paddock before my Notice period has ended is acceptable.


----------



## Illusion100 (31 August 2015)

Echo Bravo said:



			But she hadn't broken the agreement, to do the poo picking up and if she had moved her horses the only poo she needed to pick up was from the last day her horse was in the paddock. I have 3 horses in 5 acres and they produce 2 barrowfulls a day so 1 horse, every 2 days?. If she has photos of the field while her horse was there, so much the better.
		
Click to expand...

I posted a few photos and a video on FB of my horse in his paddock over various timescales, they show a very clean environment without a poo to be spotted!


----------



## ILuvCowparsely (31 August 2015)

Illusion100 said:



			I posted a few photos and a video on FB of my horse in his paddock over various timescales, they show a very clean environment without a poo to be spotted!
		
Click to expand...

Maybe the Yard owner needs to go to Spec Savers lol


----------



## Queenbee (31 August 2015)

Mike007 said:



			Sadly things are never that simple . I hope you do win,and so I also hope you have sufficient hard evidence to back your claim.
		
Click to expand...

Actually in a court of law... things can be this simple, yes... evidence will be needed... correspondence to the like, but when it comes to anything legal... the very best advice I can offer is to keep it to the bare facts, the very bare mininum OP and dont add unnecessary details.... look at your original post, prove those points and only those and that should be enough... adding that which is not needed will only ever hinder.


----------



## Illusion100 (31 August 2015)

Mike007 said:



			For me ,the single biggest weakness in the yard owners case is the failure to give sufficient notice that the work carried out (poo picking) was in their opinion ,substandard. Just as the OP has to request repayment of the deposit twice prior to issuing the court proceedings , the YO should have given the op sufficient time to respond. The OP should line up evidence to show that any delay was not detrimental to the interests of the YO . Poo in a field is normal, continued failure to clear is a health hazard for horses. Why? endoparasites.
		
Click to expand...

IMO, the YO should have given me until the end of my Notice period to do this (even though no matter what I did would have been good enough). I poo picked daily during my time at the yard, although the YO said that every other day was fine. My horse was wormed according to Yard worming programme approx. 2 weeks before I moved him. YO required the paddock to be poo picked everyday for 1 week after worming, I did this. 

I wish to add that the track my horse paced only became a concern to YO after I requested he be moved because he wasn't settling (one text only from YO in the approx. 5 weeks my horse occupied that paddock) and my poo picking 'failures' only an issue after I had paid any o/s livery monies after I had given my Notice and removed my horse from the Property.

No big issues before that!


----------



## ycbm (31 August 2015)

Dave the dog said:



			A deposit paid without a written contract is essentially an unsecured loan.. If It's less than £1000 then walk away, court costs will easily exceed this. Judge will have a dim view of the case if there is no legal representation, whose bill will exceed this. If you sue for malpractice then you need others in the same boat that will share the cost thus lending weight to your case, plus evidence. The law is not fair, it's justice. And the law will not allow you to be seen to reap revenge however much you feel you have been cheated.
		
Click to expand...

It is normal for there to be no legal representives in the small claims court. It's what it's for, people to present their own case without lawyers.

Illusion t think you have a strong case and I am glad that you are taking this bully on.   You might like to research 'unfair contract terms', as forty pounds per day to poo pick a paddock sound more like a penalty fine than payment due for work undertaken.


----------



## Mike007 (31 August 2015)

Its proving the points that is the issue, and yes, dont cloud the argument with unnecessary detail.


----------



## Illusion100 (31 August 2015)

Queenbee said:



			Actually in a court of law... things can be this simple, yes... evidence will be needed... correspondence to the like, but when it comes to anything legal... the very best advice I can offer is to keep it to the bare facts, the very bare mininum OP and dont add unnecessary details.... look at your original post, prove those points and only those and that should be enough... adding that which is not needed will only ever hinder.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks Queenbee. I will be factual and to the point.


----------



## SO1 (31 August 2015)

The things with contracts is that they are very factual and not based on what is expected to be reasonable or not. You agree to do something you don't do it and then the implications for not doing that are applied.

The contract stated poo picking every day, failure to do this incurs a £40 per day surcharge owner moves horse and poo picking not completed to YO standards on the day of the horses departure. YO texts owner on that day saying come back and complete job by end of next day. Owner unable to comply as her partner is unwell. Therefore at least 2 days of field not being poo picked to standards required by YO therefore YO can apply charges under her contract for £40 per day. It is irrelevant if a horse is using the field or not or if there is a welfare issue or not by not poo picking the field.

The sensible option would have been to have to check with YO that everything was clean to the correct standard on the day of departure so if it was not then you would know what was needed to do get your deposit back.

Yes a kind YO would have been more understanding and given more time considering that owner left early and no other horses were in the field and owners partner was unwell but sadly not everyone is like that.

I think you will struggle to win this one under the terms of the contract unless you have photograph dated evidence that the field was clean.



Mike007 said:



			For me ,the single biggest weakness in the yard owners case is the failure to give sufficient notice that the work carried out (poo picking) was in their opinion ,substandard. Just as the OP has to request repayment of the deposit twice prior to issuing the court proceedings , the YO should have given the op sufficient time to respond. The OP should line up evidence to show that any delay was not detrimental to the interests of the YO . Poo in a field is normal, continued failure to clear is a health hazard for horses. Why? endoparasites.
		
Click to expand...


----------



## Illusion100 (31 August 2015)

ycbm said:



			It is normal for there to be no legal representives in the small claims court. It's what it's for, people to present their own case without lawyers.
		
Click to expand...

I have no doubt YO will turn up will a Legal Rep, as liveries previously conversed that a family relation is a Solicitor of YO. I won't be using a Legal Rep.


----------



## Illusion100 (31 August 2015)

SO1 said:



			The things with contracts is that they are very factual and not based on what is expected to be reasonable or not. You agree to do something you don't do it and then the implications for not doing that are applied.

The contract stated poo picking every day, failure to do this incurs a £40 per day surcharge owner moves horse and poo picking not completed to YO standards on the day of the horses departure. YO texts owner on that day saying come back and complete job by end of next day. Owner unable to comply as her partner is unwell. Therefore at least 2 days of field not being poo picked to standards required by YO therefore YO can apply charges under her contract for £40 per day. It is irrelevant if a horse is using the field or not or if there is a welfare issue or not by not poo picking the field.

The sensible option would have been to have to check with YO that everything was clean to the correct standard on the day of departure so if it was not then you would know what was needed to do get your deposit back.

Yes a kind YO would have been more understanding and given more time considering that owner left early and no other horses were in the field and owners partner was unwell but sadly not everyone is like that.

I think you will struggle to win this one under the terms of the contract unless you have photograph dated evidence that the field was clean.
		
Click to expand...

YO did not ask me to poo pick on day of horses departure, nor even within the next few days. Regardless, if this was the case, the YO was legally within their rights to poo pick on the day if I did not and charge me £40. They didn't. The Contract does not state that there will be a £40 surcharge per day that a paddock is not poo picked by Client when the paddock is unoccupied.

The things with contracts is that they can be contested on many grounds.


----------



## Achinghips (31 August 2015)

Sorry but you're mad! This is £100 not £10000. It's not about the principle, it's about the stress and drama this is causing you, which is not worth £100 ...... this paltry amount of money isn't worth your time,  chalk it up to experience, and cheap at that, unless you have your own land you can't call the shots. Alleviate your stress and move on. I mean to be kind, I'm an older person and have some life experience. I know that's hard to understand.when you are younger and passionate  ...... but I'm right.


----------



## Illusion100 (31 August 2015)

Achinghips said:



			Sorry but you're mad! This is £100 not £10000. It's not about the principle, it's about the stress and drama this is causing you, which is not worth £100 ...... this paltry amount of money isn't worth your time,  chalk it up to experience, and cheap at that, unless you have your own land you can't call the shots. Alleviate your stress and move on. I mean to be kind, I'm an older person and have some life experience. I know that's hard to understand ...... but I'm right.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, I am mad, I can't deny that!  

This may sound odd to you but letting this go would actually cause me more stress and anxiety. I appreciate this may be hard to understand. Taking action like this is pretty much unheard of for me and it's something I need to do, whether win or lose. I hope you can see things from my POV?


----------



## SO1 (31 August 2015)

I think you are best to let things go, learn from the experience and move on.

If other YO in the area find you have taken a YO for such a small amount to court then you may find yourself unwelcome on many local yards - new travels fast and YO may see you as a trouble maker.


----------



## Achinghips (31 August 2015)

In that case, I wish you well. But please bear in mind, the bottom line.  Life is a bitch, things are unfair and it isn't worth your time or mental space. Leave it to karma. People die of terminal illnesses at a young age,  there's cancer, mnd, and you have your whole beautiful life ahead of you. And you seem such a lovely kind person.  This is minor rubbish, it's not important you are allowing this ahole to live rent free in your head and it's taking up your focus and time .....  And she's loving it ..... Let it go


----------



## Exploding Chestnuts (1 September 2015)

WelshD said:



			I think its crazy that you are planning to do this to be honest especially given that you have admitted on here that you did not clear the paddock to the YO satisfaction as much of the poo was ground in by your horse fence walking

I am with you 100% on your dissatisfaction regarding the previous set up and paddock allocation but I think you are on dodgy ground here especially if they have been clever enough to get some pictures before the clean up was done
		
Click to expand...

If it was impossible for OP to remove the poop/mud then it would be impossible for YO, but it seems that YO acted unreasonably for the purpose of retaining the deposit. That surely is the point.


----------



## JanetGeorge (1 September 2015)

I agree primarily with Achinghips but I also agree with Illusion100

I think (know) there are some stark, raving mad livery owners out there - and that some of them are downright dishonest.  ANYTHING that be done to inconvenience them - and maybe stop them - is worthwhile and may well help dozens of people in the future!

I'm guessing you are doing a Small Claims action, Illusion100 and - provided you don't use a solicitor at all (and you don't need to) it's going to cost you no more than £100 to do this.  And assuming you win (a bigger gamble) it will give you some well deserved results - the LY owner is sure to be pi**ed off at least.  If you arrange for a win to be reported in the local media, it will add to your satisfaction and add to her 'inconvenience' and probably warn at least a few people to run a mile from her LY.

You DO need to be firmly of the conclusion that losing is a real possibility - and how you'll feel if you lose - not least because you losing will give the dishonest bitch some satisfaction - and you don't want to give her ANYTHING.  Personally I would probably do what you are doing - and risk losing £100 for the pure pleasure of trying - but then I know me and how I WOULD react.  I don't know you - so haven't a clue about you EXCEPT - that what you've written on the subject would also tend to support your action.

Good luck - I'll be keeping an eye out for a result with real interest!


----------



## Illusion100 (1 September 2015)

JanetGeorge said:



			I agree primarily with Achinghips but I also agree with Illusion100

I think (know) there are some stark, raving mad livery owners out there - and that some of them are downright dishonest.  ANYTHING that be done to inconvenience them - and maybe stop them - is worthwhile and may well help dozens of people in the future!

I'm guessing you are doing a Small Claims action, Illusion100 and - provided you don't use a solicitor at all (and you don't need to) it's going to cost you no more than £100 to do this.  And assuming you win (a bigger gamble) it will give you some well deserved results - the LY owner is sure to be pi**ed off at least.  If you arrange for a win to be reported in the local media, it will add to your satisfaction and add to her 'inconvenience' and probably warn at least a few people to run a mile from her LY.

You DO need to be firmly of the conclusion that losing is a real possibility - and how you'll feel if you lose - not least because you losing will give the dishonest bitch some satisfaction - and you don't want to give her ANYTHING.  Personally I would probably do what you are doing - and risk losing £100 for the pure pleasure of trying - but then I know me and how I WOULD react.  I don't know you - so haven't a clue about you EXCEPT - that what you've written on the subject would also tend to support your action.

Good luck - I'll be keeping an eye out for a result with real interest!
		
Click to expand...

Thanks Janet, 

I have honestly never experienced this sort of tyrannical/unreasonable/illogical treatment from any YO. Liveries are intimidated to speak up about any concerns they have as they feel they will just be given their Notice by YO. 

My horse was on this yard for approx. 6 weeks and he was removed on Welfare Grounds. Otherwise I tended to have spent at least several years on any yard and keep in touch with them all and I'm welcome to return anytime. I know this is irrelevant to my Case but I just wanted to say every other YO has been 'normal'.

Current YO is just fab, she really has her Clients horses welfare at heart and takes very good care of my boy. It's a very organised but relaxed yard and chatting about anything horsey wise is more than welcome. To me, this is what a YO is about, not poo!

I feel I have a strong case, I also feel (know) that what the YO is attempting is fairly routine. Time to put a stop to it, or at least try.

In my limited experience of Courts, Judges don't like a Bully.

Off track, am I right in thinking you like ID's? If so I know of a ID breeder that produces great specimens including Stallions for stud, mares and youngstock (coincidently a previous YO!). If you want I can put you in touch.


----------



## Illusion100 (1 September 2015)

SO1 said:



			I think you are best to let things go, learn from the experience and move on.

If other YO in the area find you have taken a YO for such a small amount to court then you may find yourself unwelcome on many local yards - new travels fast and YO may see you as a trouble maker.
		
Click to expand...

News has previously travelled faster to local livery yards than my difficulty. Local YO's already have a very dim view of the YO I'm having problems with. I wish I'd have known and never moved my horse there in the first place. 

He's a happy camper now though, very settled and content. I honestly couldn't recommend my current YO highly enough, she's just wonderful.


----------



## asmp (1 September 2015)

Just wanted to say good luck. Quickly reading through all the posts I can see some people think you're mad but I can understand why you're doing it - the situation would get my blood up too!


----------



## ILuvCowparsely (1 September 2015)

Achinghips said:



			Sorry but you're mad! This is £100 not £10000. It's not about the principle, it's about the stress and drama this is causing you, which is not worth £100 ...... this paltry amount of money isn't worth your time,  chalk it up to experience, and cheap at that, unless you have your own land you can't call the shots. Alleviate your stress and move on. I mean to be kind, I'm an older person and have some life experience. I know that's hard to understand.when you are younger and passionate  ...... but I'm right.
		
Click to expand...

 I disagree, one of my livery owners owed us £ 75 in rent when we gave notice of reserving the right to proceed further.  

We got the money when she realized we were going to go further and not opt out.


 I have seen court cases on Judge Rinder and JJ  in court for less than £100 - what some  call pennies is others fortune


----------



## JanetGeorge (1 September 2015)

Illusion100 said:



			Thanks Janet, 

I have honestly never experienced this sort of tyrannical/unreasonable/illogical treatment from any YO. Liveries are intimidated to speak up about any concerns they have as they feel they will just be given their Notice by YO.
		
Click to expand...

I hope not many horse owners have.  I hope to hell there are VERY few LYO's who behave anywhere NEAR this one!  Let's face it, the BEST way to deal with this one is for some generous person to finance a hit man - and get rid of it forever.  In fact the only PRACTICAL way of dealing with it that wouldn't carry the risk of jail is to quietly try and chat to EVERY horse owner there and persuade them that moving their horse is the best thing they can do for their horse's welfare and their own sanity!





			Off track, am I right in thinking you like ID's? If so I know of a ID breeder that produces great specimens including Stallions for stud, mares and youngstock (coincidently a previous YO!). If you want I can put you in touch.
		
Click to expand...

Funnily enough, I breed Irish Draughts and am probably the 'biggest' breeder of them in the UK (not a big race!)  I'm certainly curious about who you refer to - partly because I'm a Council Member - but also partly because if I don't have anything 'suitable' for a potential buyer it's easy and sensible to be able to give them another breeder's phone number, particularly if that breeder is within - say - 100 mles of me.  Although I know a handful of breeders within 100 miles of me, they are all breeders who breed 1 or 2 foals a year (so VERY little chance they will have a horse to suit anyone who wants one.)  Do please let me know this breeder's name and either phone number or e-mail address, use messages, in case you friend doesn't like his/her name being bandied on the internet.


----------



## ester (1 September 2015)

I'm not sure cases brought to Judge Rinder are a great example of how things work in real life .


----------



## Auslander (1 September 2015)

HGA-12 said:



			Well thank god this yard never asks for a deposit  and months livery up front that is all I can say.  As it is wrong, as one months livery up front is more than enough deposit without asking for added monies
		
Click to expand...

I don't take a depost AND a months livery up front -I take the equivalent of a months livery as a deposit. When/if they leave, liveries get the choice of having it returned, or using it as the last months livery. I'm very glad I did with a recent livery, who left with my wheelbarrow and my storage keys, and refused to return them, as I hadn't stated in the contract that she wasn't allowed to keep keys/pinch my stuff!


----------



## Luci07 (1 September 2015)

When going to court, along with all the other good things suggested, bear in mind the judge will not have equine knowledge so back up your claims with hard evidence. By this I mean, adverts or confirmation of the cost of employing someone to poo pick. Vets letter confirming how much poo a horse the size of yours would normally do in 24 hours. Then you can break it into 1 days dropping = x barrows = x time.  You must take a step back and be clear (or ask a non horsey friend) to look at this so you can see that you can explain your case, easily and with proof to a 3rd party. Good luck..it really is the principle here.


----------



## Gloi (1 September 2015)

I used the small claims court at one time against an insurance company that missold me a policy and had no problems. I was encouraged to do it my a friend who uses the small claims court whenever he can't sort out problems with something he has bought. The process isn't difficult or expensive so I'm glad you are taking them on.


----------



## Ladyinred (1 September 2015)

I'm sorry and realise this is no laughing matter, but when I saw someone advise you to contact the local paper I immediately visualised a 'Sun' type article under the heading "S**t Happens"....


----------



## Dry Rot (1 September 2015)

Ladyinred said:



			I'm sorry and realise this is no laughing matter, but when I saw someone advise you to contact the local paper I immediately visualised a 'Sun' type article under the heading "S**t Happens"....
		
Click to expand...

...and that's exactly the way to do it! Someone with a sharp oen could turn that YO into a figure of fun. Sometimes it is more effective to ridicule people than sue them.


----------



## ILuvCowparsely (1 September 2015)

Auslander said:



			I don't take a depost AND a months livery up front -I take the equivalent of a months livery as a deposit. When/if they leave, liveries get the choice of having it returned, or using it as the last months livery. I'm very glad I did with a recent livery, who left with my wheelbarrow and my storage keys, and refused to return them, as I hadn't stated in the contract that she wasn't allowed to keep keys/pinch my stuff!
		
Click to expand...

Similar to us, we bill them to coincide with the other bills then 4 weekly after that.  We ask a months on either side as notice of terminating the contract so  when they leave the only money returned to them is the deposit on the keys.


----------



## LCH611 (1 September 2015)

JanetGeorge said:



			I hope not many horse owners have.  I hope to hell there are VERY few LYO's who behave anywhere NEAR this one!  Let's face it, the BEST way to deal with this one is for some generous person to finance a hit man - and get rid of it forever.  In fact the only PRACTICAL way of dealing with it that wouldn't carry the risk of jail is to quietly try and chat to EVERY horse owner there and persuade them that moving their horse is the best thing they can do for their horse's welfare and their own sanity!
		
Click to expand...

You can't seriously be suggesting that someone should be assassinated because of a contretemps over some poo-picking? ! I haven't read all the posts but in my experience things are rarely as one-sided as this seems to be. I am not unsympathetic to the fact that OP has really been rattled by this, but the horse is now happy, they have a lovely new YO and I would be surprised if the court action turned out to be a stress-alleviator.


----------



## Ladyinred (1 September 2015)

LCH611 said:



			You can't seriously be suggesting that someone should be assassinated because of a contretemps over some poo-picking? ! I haven't read all the posts but in my experience things are rarely as one-sided as this seems to be. I am not unsympathetic to the fact that OP has really been rattled by this, but the horse is now happy, they have a lovely new YO and I would be surprised if the court action turned out to be a stress-alleviator.
		
Click to expand...

I think you might find it is a tongue in cheek joke :roll eyes:


----------



## Illusion100 (2 September 2015)

JanetGeorge said:



			I hope not many horse owners have.  I hope to hell there are VERY few LYO's who behave anywhere NEAR this one!  Let's face it, the BEST way to deal with this one is for some generous person to finance a hit man - and get rid of it forever.  In fact the only PRACTICAL way of dealing with it that wouldn't carry the risk of jail is to quietly try and chat to EVERY horse owner there and persuade them that moving their horse is the best thing they can do for their horse's welfare and their own sanity!




Funnily enough, I breed Irish Draughts and am probably the 'biggest' breeder of them in the UK (not a big race!)  I'm certainly curious about who you refer to - partly because I'm a Council Member - but also partly because if I don't have anything 'suitable' for a potential buyer it's easy and sensible to be able to give them another breeder's phone number, particularly if that breeder is within - say - 100 mles of me.  Although I know a handful of breeders within 100 miles of me, they are all breeders who breed 1 or 2 foals a year (so VERY little chance they will have a horse to suit anyone who wants one.)  Do please let me know this breeder's name and either phone number or e-mail address, use messages, in case you friend doesn't like his/her name being bandied on the internet.
		
Click to expand...

I remain shocked with this particular YO and their behaviour. On one day when I was cleaning out stable/removing my property from outside stable, YO was showing a potential livery round. YO has never spoken to me so politely before! All I could think regarding the viewers was 'run while you can.....otherwise, I know the grief in store for you, you poor, poor sod'. 

Regarding the ID Breeder I mentioned they are based in N.I. known as Rockrimmon Stud. If you see anything of interest to you, PM me and I will drop him a call and let him know you might wish to get in touch, or of course you can contact him directly.


----------



## Illusion100 (2 September 2015)

Ladyinred said:



			I'm sorry and realise this is no laughing matter, but when I saw someone advise you to contact the local paper I immediately visualised a 'Sun' type article under the heading "S**t Happens"....
		
Click to expand...

PMSL!


----------



## JanetGeorge (2 September 2015)

Illusion100 said:



			Regarding the ID Breeder I mentioned they are based in N.I. known as Rockrimmon Stud. If you see anything of interest to you, PM me and I will drop him a call and let him know you might wish to get in touch, or of course you can contact him directly. 

Click to expand...

TBH, I'm very unlikely to have any need - he's in Northern Ireland and I have neve had a potential buyer of a ridden ID who woud have made the trip.  Shame he doesn't have a website - I found a LOT of 2nd hand references on other sites - and pictures of a divine stallion he apparently used to own (but which HAS to be dead now - given age) - Rockrimmon Silver Diamond.  Now if he was still available and semen could be got to England, I'd be more than interested!


----------



## Illusion100 (2 September 2015)

JanetGeorge said:



			TBH, I'm very unlikely to have any need - he's in Northern Ireland and I have neve had a potential buyer of a ridden ID who woud have made the trip.  Shame he doesn't have a website - I found a LOT of 2nd hand references on other sites - and pictures of a divine stallion he apparently used to own (but which HAS to be dead now - given age) - Rockrimmon Silver Diamond.  Now if he was still available and semen could be got to England, I'd be more than interested!
		
Click to expand...

Yes, that was one of his homebreds, I remember him well while I was there, he was sold to America if my memory serves me. Yes, I reckon he'd have passed on by now as I think he was around 6/7 when he was sold and that was a couple of decades ago.


----------



## Elbie (2 September 2015)

Good luck Illusion! 

I reckon she was trying to call your bluff and didn't think you'd go through with it. She'll probably change once she receives the court documents! I know that's what happened with my ex who I took to court lol. Fingers crossed it will resolve outside of court though. 

She was definitely unreasonable in giving you such a short time frame to clear the paddock (among other things!).


----------



## jokadoka (2 September 2015)

I'm with Aching Hips, life's definitely too short.
If arguing the toss over somebody charging you for poo picking is as bad as it    gets for you, then you're one lucky person
But then, like Aching Hips, I'm older too, and therefore am probably in a different mind set then 'younger folk' (no offence intended)


----------



## paddy555 (2 September 2015)

jokadoka said:



			I'm with Aching Hips, life's definitely too short.
If arguing the toss over somebody charging you for poo picking is as bad as it    gets for you, then you're one lucky person
But then, like Aching Hips, I'm older too, and therefore am probably in a different mind set then 'younger folk' (no offence intended)
		
Click to expand...

I'm older as well and with you both. If life doesn't get any worse than a few piles of **** and £100 then you are going to have it pretty good.


----------



## Magnetic Sparrow (2 September 2015)

I'm older, I could afford to lose £100, but I really can't tolerate bullying. I salute Illusion 100 for standing up to someone who thinks that they can get their own way by behaving like this. Principles are worth a lot more than £100.


----------



## Reacher (2 September 2015)

Magnetic Sparrow said:



			I'm older, I could afford to lose £100, but I really can't tolerate bullying. I salute Illusion 100 for standing up to someone who thinks that they can get their own way by behaving like this. Principles are worth a lot more than £100.
		
Click to expand...

I agree, it's about not letting a bully get away with it, and hopefully putting her off trying it on someone else. Good luck Illusion 100.  I know someone who went to Small Claims Court over a much smaller amount of money....and won.


----------



## WelshD (2 September 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			If it was impossible for OP to remove the poop/mud then it would be impossible for YO
		
Click to expand...

In what way? lots of things that are impossible for me are no problem for someone else. The OP has said previously that they found it hard to poo pick everything, IF they said they left the paddock immaculate then I would agree 100% with you but they admitted they didn't


----------



## dianchi (2 September 2015)

Good luck!
YO like this do deserve threats to be followed through!


----------



## Possum (2 September 2015)

Good luck OP. The world is depressingly full of entitled bullies with brass necks - good for you for taking her on and will be keeping my fingers crossed for a positive outcome. I completely see your POV is doing something is better than feeling helpless - if you lose, at least you gave it a good shot.


----------



## Illusion100 (4 September 2015)

Thanks all, really appreciate the support. Can I just say, *in a mushy, love you all kind of way*, the support, advice, experiences and opinions have been wonderful.  

Have got some further valuable advice and I'm not rushing into Legal Proceedings, I will take time over the next while and get what I need together and give them 1 last chance (via letter) before going ahead with Court documentation. If it gets to that stage....'Gloves are off'!


----------



## Dry Rot (4 September 2015)

YO isn't on Facebook is she? 

I've just taken great delight in putting a rude posting on a supplier's FB page. They made FIVE mistakes in my address! The postal town was omitted and the post code alone contained two mistakes yet they managed to get my credit card details right and extract an extortionate payment for goods that are probably lost. The good old GPO still delivered the receipt so well done them. Of course, I need the items urgently and the suppliers are ignoring messages! At least I can enjoy a small revenge and I hope the OP will be able to as well!


----------



## Illusion100 (5 September 2015)

Dry Rot said:



			YO isn't on Facebook is she? 

I've just taken great delight in putting a rude posting on a supplier's FB page. They made FIVE mistakes in my address! The postal town was omitted and the post code alone contained two mistakes yet they managed to get my credit card details right and extract an extortionate payment for goods that are probably lost. The good old GPO still delivered the receipt so well done them. Of course, I need the items urgently and the suppliers are ignoring messages! At least I can enjoy a small revenge and I hope the OP will be able to as well!
		
Click to expand...

No, they aren't on Fb. 

I really didn't expect or want this situation at all. I truly believed that yard was where my horse was going to happily spent years.

In reality, once the YO had my (over £200 deposit), they became very tyrannical, uncaring and unyielding. 

Ha! It's funny how they can take your money and faff everything else, isn't it?! ******ing %&*£"!

The more paying customers that stand up to these bullies, the better.


----------



## dianchi (7 September 2015)

Any update Illusion?


----------



## Illusion100 (7 September 2015)

dianchi said:



			Any update Illusion?
		
Click to expand...

No, I've been a bit busy recently so not had time to focus too much on it. I think I need to speak to BHS again as I've been advised elsewhere to send a 'Letter before Action' letter, however I have already stated twice to YO that unless my Deposit is returned I will proceed with Legal Action so trying to figure out what's best.

I am swayed towards sending this letter as it will demonstrate I have made 3 attempts for my money to be returned before initiating Court Action but it will take a good bit of time and research as I have soooooooo many angles to come from. 

I have also been advised to contact the RSPCA with regards to unnecessary suffering caused to my horse, so that could be a saga. I don't think they would assist? Yes, the pacing showed my horse was distressed but he had access to plenty of food and water. I'm just not sure they would even bother to get involved.....


----------



## YorksG (7 September 2015)

Surely if the animal  was caused unnecessary suffering it was your responsibility to remove him from the yard? Which you did, I do think this would be pointless and actually would weaken your moral stance on this situation, it appears to be a desperate and spiteful act.


----------



## muckypony (7 September 2015)

YorksG said:



			Surely if the animal  was caused unnecessary suffering it was your responsibility to remove him from the yard? Which you did, I do think this would be pointless and actually would weaken your moral stance on this situation, it appears to be a desperate and spiteful act.
		
Click to expand...

I have to agree. 

I was initially with you on this and really respected you standing up for yourself, but having followed this through I think you are more and more likely to loose this case. Going to the RSPCA is pointless, he is your horse and you are accountable for how he is treated. I actually now think that the field was left unclean and honestly feel rather sorry for this YO having her name dragged through the mud because she is charging you in line with her contract that you signed. You can say that her liveries all think the same, but at the end of the day they are still there so clearly don't find her that bad.


----------



## Illusion100 (7 September 2015)

YorksG said:



			Surely if the animal  was caused unnecessary suffering it was your responsibility to remove him from the yard? Which you did, I do think this would be pointless and actually would weaken your moral stance on this situation, it appears to be a desperate and spiteful act.
		
Click to expand...

Which is why I have not contacted the RSPCA, I just don't see that it is their responsibility. Particularly as throughout his stay at that yard I tried numerous ways to assist the issue and when it was clear nothing was going to come of it, I moved him asap, so again I can't see how it is an RSPCA matter.

A Legal advisor stated that RSPCA involvement would be prudent but I'm just not convinced. I can provide Professional evidence to demonstrate that my need to remove my horse due to being stressed/pacing was warranted.


----------



## Illusion100 (7 September 2015)

muckypony said:



			I have to agree. 

I was initially with you on this and really respected you standing up for yourself, but having followed this through I think you are more and more likely to loose this case. Going to the RSPCA is pointless, he is your horse and you are accountable for how he is treated. I actually now think that the field was left unclean and honestly feel rather sorry for this YO having her name dragged through the mud because she is charging you in line with her contract that you signed. You can say that her liveries all think the same, but at the end of the day they are still there so clearly don't find her that bad.
		
Click to expand...

Bit of cross posting going on but I had replied to YorksG that I don't think involving the RSPCA is appropriate but it was Legal advise given to me, so it's good to hear peoples views regarding it. 

I haven't dragged anyones name through the mud and I am not being charged in line with the contract. You are of course entitled to your opinion.


----------



## muckypony (7 September 2015)

Illusion100 said:



			Bit of cross posting going on but I had replied to YorksG that I don't think involving the RSPCA is appropriate but it was Legal advise given to me, so it's good to hear peoples views regarding it. 

I haven't dragged anyones name through the mud and I am not being charged in line with the contract. You are of course entitled to your opinion. 

Click to expand...

Well I do wish you luck with the case but I really would reconsider before going to court. Legal stuff is too expensive. We had a (completely different) dispute to deal with two years ago. We had an obviously strong case so were prepared to take it to court, that wasn't needed in end but we still racked up about £2k in solicitor fees just for letters to be written to and fro. Although we got back what we had paid, we didn't get much extra than what was then rightfully ours (it was a land/boundary fence dispute) it would never have been worth the time, money and stress caused for the sum of £100. I am very much a 'stand up for yourself' type, but I think this has too much potential to go in either favor and you could end up so much worse off than £100.


----------



## Goldenstar (7 September 2015)

I can assure everyone that the RSPCA have far to much to do to deal with a horse fence walking partcularily one that's not fence walking any more .
The involvement of a vet to a behaviourist might be useful but that will cost money and it's not worth it .


----------



## Illusion100 (7 September 2015)

muckypony said:



			Well I do wish you luck with the case but I really would reconsider before going to court. Legal stuff is too expensive. We had a (completely different) dispute to deal with two years ago. We had an obviously strong case so were prepared to take it to court, that wasn't needed in end but we still racked up about £2k in solicitor fees just for letters to be written to and fro. Although we got back what we had paid, we didn't get much extra than what was then rightfully ours (it was a land/boundary fence dispute) it would never have been worth the time, money and stress caused for the sum of £100. I am very much a 'stand up for yourself' type, but I think this has too much potential to go in either favor and you could end up so much worse off than £100.
		
Click to expand...

I have never had to take such action before and I'm not enjoying it but it's what I am going to do. My OH used a Solicitor in the past and he spend around the same as you but didn't really get anywhere. I am certainly not using one! 

I'm glad you got your money back though and sorry it was so stressful for you.


----------



## Illusion100 (7 September 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			I can assure everyone that the RSPCA have far to much to do to deal with a horse fence walking partcularily one that's not fence walking any more .
The involvement of a vet to a behaviourist might be useful but that will cost money and it's not worth it .
		
Click to expand...

Yes, I found it odd that I was advised to involve RSPCA regarding this. Hey ho, you can always listen to advice but you don't have to take it!

Vet/behaviourist statements are on their way to me and they haven't cost a penny.


----------



## YorksG (7 September 2015)

Illusion100 said:



			Which is why I have not contacted the RSPCA, I just don't see that it is their responsibility. Particularly as throughout his stay at that yard I tried numerous ways to assist the issue and when it was clear nothing was going to come of it, I moved him asap, so again I can't see how it is an RSPCA matter.

A Legal advisor stated that RSPCA involvement would be prudent but I'm just not convinced. I can provide Professional evidence to demonstrate that my need to remove my horse due to being stressed/pacing was warranted.
		
Click to expand...

Obviously I have no idea of the level of qualification, or specialism of the legal advisor, but I would be wary of taking advice from some-one who made that suggestion. The YO may have a duty of care under the animals act, but so do you as the owner, it would be a strange standpoint to take IMO, and serve only to confuse the issue (the hundred pounds depost) and conflate it with concerns which have no connection with the money.


----------



## Illusion100 (8 September 2015)

YorksG said:



			Obviously I have no idea of the level of qualification, or specialism of the legal advisor, but I would be wary of taking advice from some-one who made that suggestion. The YO may have a duty of care under the animals act, but so do you as the owner, it would be a strange standpoint to take IMO, and serve only to confuse the issue (the hundred pounds depost) and conflate it with concerns which have no connection with the money.
		
Click to expand...

I agree, any argument put forward under the Animal Welfare Act should certainly be very carefully considered. I've been involved in many seizure cases, which are only justified under Vet Grounds and I, as the Owner, removed my horse from the yard well before it came to this. That however does not negate that I had to remove my horse due to unnecessary suffering and I have incurred costs of approx. £500 to do this. I was willing to put the sorry ordeal behind me.

However, I poo picked daily and left the paddock clean. Immaculate? Impossible, but clean, as stated in contract. If I had not removed my horse, he would still be pacing that paddock and the YO would still be taking my money. They could have given me notice, they didn't. Being paid came above my horses Welfare. This just isn't on in my book. 

How many of you think it is acceptable to have to remove your horse from a yard you pay because they don't give a stuff about welfare? The proof is in the pudding, happy horse and no pacing under appropriate YO management.

Sorry, came across a bit ranty at the end there, not directed at you YorksG!


----------



## Achinghips (8 September 2015)

Errrr..... Most of us, I'm sure have removed horses from a yard where we believe the YO doesn't give a stuff. That's our prerogative, not theirs. And whether it's acceptable or not is not the point.
Life isn't fair,  and some things aren't worth the effort to make it so .....you need to accept this.  Your perceptions about what is morally right make no difference, there will always be someone who thinks their perceptions are more justified than yours and you won't change their mind.  I think you should put all this time and energy into getting on with enjoying your horse at your new place.  This is now close to becoming, if nothing else,  vengeful.


----------



## KrujaaLass (8 September 2015)

Aching hips. This is the voice of reason. Sometimes although you think you are morally right some battles are not worth the time and stress.


----------



## ycbm (8 September 2015)

Why did it cost you £500 to move yards a few miles?

Are you now planning to sue for that as well, because that's a completely separate argument to your one about the poo picking fine?

I was with you on a quick small claims court case, but you've lost me now.

Unless every horse at that yard is suffering, you don't have a hope in hell of succeeding with any animal welfare claim for a fence walking horse. Your horse didn't like the place. You moved him. It happens. End of.


----------



## D66 (8 September 2015)

ycbm said:



			Why did it cost you £500 to move yards a few miles?

Are you now planning to sue for that as well, because that's a completely separate argument to your one about the poo picking fine?

I was with you on a quick small claims court case, but you've lost me now.

Unless every horse at that yard is suffering, you don't have a hope in hell of succeeding with any animal welfare claim for a fence walking horse. Your horse didn't like the place. You moved him. It happens. End of.
		
Click to expand...

This ^^^You've probably got a case for the £100, if you push too far you will risk coming over as vengeful.


----------



## ester (8 September 2015)

Illusion100 said:



			How many of you think it is acceptable to have to remove your horse from a yard you pay because they don't give a stuff about welfare? The proof is in the pudding, happy horse and no pacing under appropriate YO management.
		
Click to expand...

So many examples of horses being less stressed on some yards compared to others, not necessarily for any clear reason - I don't think that gives you any case for a welfare issue on the grounds of the YO management?!? I think that is quite a bizarre stance to take tbh and would be sticking with the paddock was clean ergo full deposit should be returned.


----------



## SpringArising (8 September 2015)

Illusion100 said:



			How many of you think it is acceptable to have to remove your horse from a yard you pay because they don't give a stuff about welfare? The proof is in the pudding, happy horse and no pacing under appropriate YO management.
		
Click to expand...

What do you mean? The YO is just providing the facilities. It's up to you to decide whether or not they're suitable for your horse, and whether or not that situation is working for you both. It's not up to the YO to ensure your horse is happy. That's your job, as the horse's owner.


----------



## fatpiggy (8 September 2015)

SpringArising said:



			What do you mean? The YO is just providing the facilities. It's up to you to decide whether or not they're suitable for your horse, and whether or not that situation is working for you both. It's not up to the YO to ensure your horse is happy. That's your job, as the horse's owner.
		
Click to expand...

The trouble is though, so many YOs will tell you everything you want to hear just to get you on ,and then you cease to be of any interest to them.  Where I used to keep my horse they kept sticking more and more horses on the field, way more than the field could support, then one day we came down and a third of the field had been fenced off so that a friend of the YO could keep their animals separate from ours.  New people got everything they wanted at the expense of the existing owners. When I was viewing, I was told that they had 5 elderlies on already and they weren't planning to get any larger.  The last I heard there were 25 there.


----------



## Elbie (8 September 2015)

This may not actually go to court. From having used small claims court before they try to resolve outside of court. That's the whole point of the service. If you can't reach an agreement then it may be taken before someone but even then I don't think you need to go down the route of appointing a solicitor. My friend took her old YO to small claims court over failure to return deposit. From what I recall they just had to discuss with a judge and put their case across. That was it


----------



## southerncomfort (8 September 2015)

Am I getting confused?  Didn't the horse fence walk at previous yards too? Apologies if I'm thinking of a different horse.  But if it is the same one, you can't claim that the YO had anything to do with it really.

Personally, I agree with those that say pick your battles.  Yes, it's galling to have to give in but I really don't think it's worth the stress and aggro.  I'd just put it down to experience and just make sure not to sign an agreement like that again.  You live and learn.

Good luck whatever you decide.


----------



## jokadoka (9 September 2015)

Achinghips said:



			Errrr..... Most of us, I'm sure have removed horses from a yard where we believe the YO doesn't give a stuff. That's our prerogative, not theirs. And whether it's acceptable or not is not the point.
Life isn't fair,  and some things aren't worth the effort to make it so .....you need to accept this.  Your perceptions about what is morally right make no difference, there will always be someone who thinks their perceptions are more justified than yours and you won't change their mind.  I think you should put all this time and energy into getting on with enjoying your horse at your new place.  This is now close to becoming, if nothing else,  vengeful.
		
Click to expand...

Again, I totally agree with Aching Hips.
Sorry to say, but I think this is slowly turning in to a farce....


----------



## 9tails (9 September 2015)

Not wishing to pee on your chips, but why exactly couldn't the field be cleaned properly?  I've cleaned up plenty of scattered and trampled poos (I have an occasional fencewalker if she feels abandoned) with a Speedskip. Totally off topic, I know, but my fieldmates clean up with a shavings fork and I wish they didn't bother because they leave so much mess.  Use the right equipment and you can do a good job.


----------



## luckyoldme (9 September 2015)

i admire your dedication to the cause......but i really could nt be bothered to fight this one out. it sounds like its taking up a lot of your time and energy.


----------



## Illusion100 (10 September 2015)

9tails said:



			Not wishing to pee on your chips, but why exactly couldn't the field be cleaned properly?  I've cleaned up plenty of scattered and trampled poos (I have an occasional fencewalker if she feels abandoned) with a Speedskip. Totally off topic, I know, but my fieldmates clean up with a shavings fork and I wish they didn't bother because they leave so much mess.  Use the right equipment and you can do a good job.
		
Click to expand...

Well, this is the problem. The few poos in the middle of paddock where picked up using a poo picker, main clumps of poo on track the same way and then (as usual) a rake used to go over the track, (jagged edge to dislodge flattened poo, then flat edge to scrape), so from my POV the field was cleaned. I cannot see how it then took 4.5 hrs to clean!


----------



## Illusion100 (10 September 2015)

SpringArising said:



			What do you mean? The YO is just providing the facilities. It's up to you to decide whether or not they're suitable for your horse, and whether or not that situation is working for you both. It's not up to the YO to ensure your horse is happy. That's your job, as the horse's owner.
		
Click to expand...

Many of your posts strongly indicate to me that you perceive things in a 'black and white' opinion. If a YO is providing facilities, why can they not provide the facilities they have at hand to prevent distress to a paying customers horse? 

If my current YO decided to move my horse to a paddock where he started becoming distressed and pacing, that's just an 'ah well' time to move my horse again scenario? 

When does it become my 'job' to tolerate YO's who will subject a horse to stress? 

Yes, this YO is very similar in mind set to yourself and has lost another customer as a result.


----------



## YorksG (10 September 2015)

Illusion100 said:



			Many of your posts strongly indicate to me that you perceive things in a 'black and white' opinion. If a YO is providing facilities, why can they not provide the facilities they have at hand to prevent distress to a paying customers horse? 

If my current YO decided to move my horse to a paddock where he started becoming distressed and pacing, that's just an 'ah well' time to move my horse again scenario? 

When does it become my 'job' to tolerate YO's who will subject a horse to stress? 

Yes, this YO is very similar in mind set to yourself and has lost another customer as a result.
		
Click to expand...

I don't think anyone is saying that anyone should tolerate YO's who subject a horse to stress, the message is move yards! and yes it saying time to move yards, just as if any service does not meet your needs, you then change to another provider. It is as black and white as that, you cannot hope to influence others to do as suits you, you have to either have your own yard, or be prepared to do what the YO wants, or move.


----------



## Illusion100 (11 September 2015)

Achinghips said:



			Errrr..... Most of us, I'm sure have removed horses from a yard where we believe the YO doesn't give a stuff. That's our prerogative, not theirs. And whether it's acceptable or not is not the point.
Life isn't fair,  and some things aren't worth the effort to make it so .....you need to accept this.  Your perceptions about what is morally right make no difference, there will always be someone who thinks their perceptions are more justified than yours and you won't change their mind.  I think you should put all this time and energy into getting on with enjoying your horse at your new place.  This is now close to becoming, if nothing else,  vengeful.
		
Click to expand...

To me, it IS the point. Why are these people in this Industry if they don't give a stuff? Why should we pay for that? Do you just lie down and roll over every time 'life isn't fair', or weigh up how unfair do things need to be before 'I will possibly think about doing something about it as long as it doesn't cause any effort on my behalf'?

I am putting time and energy into enjoying my horse at this new yard, why would you think I am only capable of doing acting against this YO and nothing else? I'm not trying to change morality, perceptions or associated justification. I am using the Law to do my little bit to stop YO's like this. It is because so many people fold and walk away out of pocket that allows people like this to bully.


----------



## Illusion100 (11 September 2015)

YorksG said:



			I don't think anyone is saying that anyone should tolerate YO's who subject a horse to stress, the message is move yards! and yes it saying time to move yards, just as if any service does not meet your needs, you then change to another provider. It is as black and white as that, you cannot hope to influence others to do as suits you, you have to either have your own yard, or be prepared to do what the YO wants, or move.
		
Click to expand...

So in livery yard terms there can be no dissatisfaction of service, the only solution is to suck it up, pay your money and move regardless?! 

I agree, I should buy my own yard, do what I like regardless of whether it causes suffering and get paid for it! Get in! Easy Money!

Line up folks, I won't give a cr*p about your horses but you can pay me for it......'I don't give a cr*p costs start at £40 per week'. Then when your horse has been distressed enough you've had to move, meh I'll charge *let me pick a number...say £100* to clear a cleared field.

Doesn't matter, people just pay up and move on.....it's not worth the hassle of Small Claims Court for that....EASY MONEY!


----------



## jokadoka (11 September 2015)

Illusion100 said:



			So in livery yard terms there can be no dissatisfaction of service, the only solution is to suck it up, pay your money and move regardless?! 

I agree, I should buy my own yard, do what I like regardless of whether it causes suffering and get paid for it! Get in! Easy Money!

Line up folks, I won't give a cr*p about your horses but you can pay me for it......'I don't give a cr*p costs start at £40 per week'. Then when your horse has been distressed enough you've had to move, meh I'll charge *let me pick a number...say £100* to clear a cleared field.

Doesn't matter, people just pay up and move on.....it's not worth the hassle of Small Claims Court for that....EASY MONEY!
		
Click to expand...


Dear oh dear......


----------



## ihatework (11 September 2015)

TBH you are starting to sound a bit weird now.
I get why you are peed of, I have quite a strong sense of right & wrong and in your shoes I would be persuing return of my deposit - just to make a point.
BUT you have to do it in a confidently assertive unemotional way. 
You went to a dodgy yard, it happens and it's not the end of the world.


----------



## dianchi (24 September 2015)

Sorry to ping this up the list but Ilusion how are you getting on?


----------



## YorksG (24 September 2015)

Illusion100 said:



			So in livery yard terms there can be no dissatisfaction of service, the only solution is to suck it up, pay your money and move regardless?! 

I agree, I should buy my own yard, do what I like regardless of whether it causes suffering and get paid for it! Get in! Easy Money!

Line up folks, I won't give a cr*p about your horses but you can pay me for it......'I don't give a cr*p costs start at £40 per week'. Then when your horse has been distressed enough you've had to move, meh I'll charge *let me pick a number...say £100* to clear a cleared field.

Doesn't matter, people just pay up and move on.....it's not worth the hassle of Small Claims Court for that....EASY MONEY!
		
Click to expand...

I have only just seen this childish and rude respons to my post. I will try again, for one last time, the only time that you can dictate what a yard owner does, or exactly what happens with your horse,, where it is turned out and when, is when you have your own yard! Is that clear enough?


----------



## Illusion100 (24 September 2015)

dianchi said:



			Sorry to ping this up the list but Ilusion how are you getting on?
		
Click to expand...

Tbh, not focused too much on it recently, got until mid Nov to start proceedings so I'm taking my time and slowly gathering info/legislation etc as and when I have time. 

So once my Letter of Action is sent they will have 2 weeks to respond, then I strongly suspect it will end in a Court Hearing. I will likely update or post thread when all is done and dusted, which may take several months. 

Horse still very chilled at 'new' yard under a YO that accommodates horses individual needs and works for their money, so both horse and I are very happy.


----------



## Exploding Chestnuts (25 September 2015)

Good, chances are even  if you attend court, they won't


----------



## cremedemonthe (25 September 2015)

Good luck OP I'm fully behind you on this, I've stood up to rip off bullies in court too and won, it's a matter of principle when you get accused of all sorts you just have to prove them wrong.
Oz


----------



## Luci07 (25 September 2015)

YorksG said:



			I have only just seen this childish and rude respons to my post. I will try again, for one last time, the only time that you can dictate what a yard owner does, or exactly what happens with your horse,, where it is turned out and when, is when you have your own yard! Is that clear enough?
		
Click to expand...

I have to disagree. I have always had input as to what happens to my horse. I agree the feeding, who he is turned out with etc etc. I have worked with my YO when I had a pain in the backside horse who just could not be left unsupervised.  I am now on assisted DIY and still care for my horse how I want to. Obviously compromises have to be made as they do in all walks of life but he is managed as I want him to be. I am always aware that where I am now is at my YO's home so am perhaps a little more cautious but that is just out of common courtesy.


----------



## PollyP99 (25 September 2015)

YorksG said:



			the only time that you can dictate what a yard owner does, or exactly what happens with your horse,, where it is turned out and when, is when you have your own yard! Is that clear enough?
		
Click to expand...

This is utter nonsense, why should any client of any service put up with this kind of treatment.  It's people putting up I with this stuff that empowers these YO that go on a power trip.  

It's a service, like any other, we are clients, regardless of where they are providing the service from, the client should always have a say in how the service is delivered and full notice of any changes.  It's pretty simple.


----------



## fburton (25 September 2015)

Yes, like landlords and tenants.


----------



## YorksG (25 September 2015)

PollyP99 said:



			This is utter nonsense, why should any client of any service put up with this kind of treatment.  It's people putting up I with this stuff that empowers these YO that go on a power trip.  

It's a service, like any other, we are clients, regardless of where they are providing the service from, the client should always have a say in how the service is delivered and full notice of any changes.  It's pretty simple.
		
Click to expand...

I would never put up with it, but the reallity is that unless you own the yard, the final say is with the YO. No-one is suggesting that anyone should put up with it, if it doesn't suit you move. It really is that simple! I have no quible with the OP declining to allow the YO to keep her ddeposit, but the other stuff is irrelevent and will have noimpact on the suit for the humdred pounds.


----------



## Goldenstar (25 September 2015)

The clue is in the word ,owner .Yard owners decide the service they offer the type is food aviable , the turnout rules the time you can be on the yard etc etc .
The cilents decide if they want the service offered if they don't they move.


----------



## Illusion100 (26 September 2015)

I appreciate everyone has an opinion on this situation.

I have mine and I'm not a happy camper. I will go to Court with the aim to recover the retained portion of my deposit and also the costs I incurred to relocate my horse to a yard where the YO gives a flying about welfare, AS THEY SHOULD DO. If the YO in question did the same, I wouldn't have needed to move.

My horse is well and happy and my YO is great, just the kind of person I'd want to pay for their services, why...well she gives a **** about my horse and his welfare. Wow, what a big ask to pay for, eh?

Bottom line is I am taking that YO to Court without hurry. I for one cannot just shrug my shoulders and think 'it's easier to let it go'. 

My decision was made long ago. I'm not asking everyone to agree with me and support my opinions on this. That said, I have no interest in splitting hairs with other posters. 

To finalise: If you don't agree, fair enough. Find another thread to argue on.


----------



## alainax (26 September 2015)

Illusion100 said:



			To finalise: If you don't agree, fair enough. Find another thread to argue on. 

Click to expand...

Not quite how it works on a forum, can't just have everyone who agrees with you post.


----------



## Frumpoon (26 September 2015)

I've taken yard managers to court before OP so if you need any help with filling out forms or court processes or suchlike feel free to get in touch


----------



## Illusion100 (27 September 2015)

Frumpoon said:



			I've taken yard managers to court before OP so if you need any help with filling out forms or court processes or suchlike feel free to get in touch
		
Click to expand...

That would be great, thank you.


----------



## Luci07 (27 September 2015)

alainax said:



			Not quite how it works on a forum, can't just have everyone who agrees with you post.
		
Click to expand...

Well said....and actually that is not a pop at the OP. I often seen people state their opinions on here and feathers are seriously ruffled when others disagree or have another POV! And not necessarily the person who placed the original post!


----------



## Roasted Chestnuts (27 September 2015)

Mike007 I have to disagree with the photos on a phone statement. The police used pictures on my phone as evidence against someone driving dangerously around myself and my horse and a friend in her out riding one day.

Good Luck OP


----------



## cobgoblin (27 September 2015)

alainax said:



			Not quite how it works on a forum, can't just have everyone who agrees with you post.
		
Click to expand...

That's fine in a discussion but OP has made the decision to go ahead with court action, so there is no point in disagreeing. Unless, of course, you are hoping that her action fails.
I wish you the very best of luck OP. Far too many people get away with bullying behaviour because no one can be bothered.


----------



## Kaylum (27 September 2015)

If she didn't have your money already she wouldn't have charged you end of. Any excuse to keep it.


----------



## Illusion100 (29 September 2015)

cobgoblin said:



			That's fine in a discussion but OP has made the decision to go ahead with court action, so there is no point in disagreeing. Unless, of course, you are hoping that her action fails.
I wish you the very best of luck OP. Far too many people get away with bullying behaviour because no one can be bothered.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks, my decision was made and that's that really. I've never liked bullies and I want my money back.


----------



## Illusion100 (29 September 2015)

Kaylum said:



			If she didn't have your money already she wouldn't have charged you end of. Any excuse to keep it.
		
Click to expand...

Yup, she must need to find dodgy ways to retain deposits to help cover the numerous empty stables she can't keep filled.


----------



## Michen (29 September 2015)

Good on you OP. Might be an idea to go on trustonline.org.uk and see if she has other judgements against her, unpaid or not....


----------



## Illusion100 (30 September 2015)

Michen said:



			Good on you OP. Might be an idea to go on trustonline.org.uk and see if she has other judgements against her, unpaid or not....
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for that, will have a check. 

Still a significant amount of empty stables at her yard. In hindsight, the whole experience has been a good reminder in a way. I really loved the yard set up from a potential livery perspective and it clouded my better judgement despite numerous little niggles I felt before moving my horse there. I could kick myself for thinking she couldn't really be that OCD/Finicky/irrational as I'm a bit of a perfectionist myself.....but she has taken this beyond reason and justification and my horse suffered also. Yup, still p*****d off and going to Court about it!

Current YO is still just fab, I've not been lulled into any pretences and she takes great care with my horse. She was there off her own want to be a part of me getting on my youngster for the 1st time last w'end, (along with a really lovely livery who did a great job getting pics and vids in the floodlights!) and I couldn't have appreciated them more. 

I'm not saying such should be expected of a YO or fellow liveries but I suppose my point is it's nice to be around people who are in the business/ownership for the love of it and being on a 'horsey level' rather than only the money aspect.

Sorry Michen, I've rambled on for no particular reason. I'm really happy you got the PL sorted.


----------



## Michen (30 September 2015)

I get where you are coming from  

Thanks... What a nightmare. Even better when SEIB removed vet cover a few days later as well. As if it wasn't all stressful enough eh....





Illusion100 said:



			Thanks for that, will have a check. 

Still a significant amount of empty stables at her yard. In hindsight, the whole experience has been a good reminder in a way. I really loved the yard set up from a potential livery perspective and it clouded my better judgement despite numerous little niggles I felt before moving my horse there. I could kick myself for thinking she couldn't really be that OCD/Finicky/irrational as I'm a bit of a perfectionist myself.....but she has taken this beyond reason and justification and my horse suffered also. Yup, still p*****d off and going to Court about it!

Current YO is still just fab, I've not been lulled into any pretences and she takes great care with my horse. She was there off her own want to be a part of me getting on my youngster for the 1st time last w'end, (along with a really lovely livery who did a great job getting pics and vids in the floodlights!) and I couldn't have appreciated them more. 

I'm not saying such should be expected of a YO or fellow liveries but I suppose my point is it's nice to be around people who are in the business/ownership for the love of it and being on a 'horsey level' rather than only the money aspect.

Sorry Michen, I've rambled on for no particular reason. I'm really happy you got the PL sorted. 

Click to expand...


----------



## 9tails (30 September 2015)

Illusion100 said:



			I appreciate everyone has an opinion on this situation.

I have mine and I'm not a happy camper. I will go to Court with the aim to recover the retained portion of my deposit and also the costs I incurred to relocate my horse to a yard where the YO gives a flying about welfare, AS THEY SHOULD DO. If the YO in question did the same, I wouldn't have needed to move.
		
Click to expand...

Really?  You may have stood a slight chance of getting £100 back if you can get evidence but also the costs incurred to relocate?  I think you're barking.




			To finalise: If you don't agree, fair enough. Find another thread to argue on. 

Click to expand...

Aww bless.  I didn't realise you own this thread and can dictate what is posted.  I had a FB friend once who used to add "End Of" whenever she was losing an argument, this reminds me of her.


----------



## Tiddlypom (30 September 2015)

Illusion100 said:



			I appreciate everyone has an opinion on this situation.

I have mine and I'm not a happy camper. I will go to Court with the aim to recover the retained portion of my deposit *and also the costs I incurred to relocate my horse to a yard where the YO gives a flying about welfare, AS THEY SHOULD DO. *If the YO in question did the same, I wouldn't have needed to move.
		
Click to expand...

You're trying to get your costs of relocation back, for moving yards? Goodness.

Yet another timely reminder that I will never, ever, have liveries.


----------



## Red-1 (30 September 2015)

I can see where you are coming from re getting your deposit back, but I do not think there is any claim for relocation expenses. 

I would go as far as to say the judge would look poorly upon it, and it would weaken your case as a "reasonable person" of you presue it.

If it were me I would drop it, but if you do go ahead I would go for the £100 and any expenses involved in getting this money back.


----------



## Illusion100 (1 October 2015)

9tails said:



			Really?  You may have stood a slight chance of getting £100 back if you can get evidence but also the costs incurred to relocate?  I think you're barking.



Aww bless.  I didn't realise you own this thread and can dictate what is posted.  I had a FB friend once who used to add "End Of" whenever she was losing an argument, this reminds me of her.
		
Click to expand...

I'm glad I invoked some memories for you, fascinating.


----------



## Illusion100 (1 October 2015)

Tiddlypom said:



			You're trying to get your costs of relocation back, for moving yards? Goodness.

Yet another timely reminder that I will never, ever, have liveries.
		
Click to expand...

I agree with you entirely, some people are suited to running Livery, others most certainly are not. I have no doubt you would be making yourself and many others more than satisfied with your choice.


----------



## Illusion100 (1 October 2015)

Red-1 said:



			I can see where you are coming from re getting your deposit back, but I do not think there is any claim for relocation expenses. 

I would go as far as to say the judge would look poorly upon it, and it would weaken your case as a "reasonable person" of you presue it.

If it were me I would drop it, but if you do go ahead I would go for the £100 and any expenses involved in getting this money back.
		
Click to expand...

How a case is looked upon depends very much on how it is presented, the Law behind the arguments and what side of the bed the Judge woke up on that morning. I'll take my chances.


----------



## YasandCrystal (1 October 2015)

I agree on taking your chances. I took a company to small claims for a damaged £300 sink. The judge actively encouraged me to also claim the time I had to take off work to attend court, which you are allowed to do along with the fees (it was a set rate). The company ended up paying around £400 to me. 
So in your case I may not claim relocation, but I would ask for some compensation for your time having to pursue this claim even if just a token amount. It makes a point I think. Interest is also calculated albeit tiny be the judge. Just stay calm and stick to your facts.


----------



## Tiddlypom (1 October 2015)

Illusion100 said:



			I agree with you entirely, some people are suited to running Livery, others most certainly are not. I have no doubt you would be making yourself and many others more than satisfied with your choice.
		
Click to expand...

And you are so wrong (as you have no knowledge of me). I would offer good facilities and, more importantly, superb care if I ever had liveries.

Asking for your deposit back is fair enough, if you are up for a fight. IMHO asking for relocation costs on top  paints you as a vexatious litigant.

People move yards all the time, in search of one that will better suit their horse. It would be a nonsense if they all started to claim for relocation fees each time.

I was, in fact, quite sympathetic to your situation at the time you started posting about it. You are now in danger of making yourself 'hot property', and if you need to move yards again, you may find it difficult to find somewhere prepared to take you on.


----------



## Doormouse (1 October 2015)

Tiddlypom said:



			And you are so wrong (as you have no knowledge of me). I would offer good facilities and, more importantly, superb care if I ever had liveries.

Asking for your deposit back is fair enough, if you are up for a fight. IMHO asking for relocation costs on top  paints you as a vexatious litigant.

People move yards all the time, in search of one that will better suit their horse. It would be a nonsense if they all started to claim for relocation fees each time.

I was, in fact, quite sympathetic to your situation at the time you started posting about it. You are now in danger of making yourself 'hot property', and if you need to move yards again, you may find it difficult to find somewhere prepared to take you on.
		
Click to expand...

I'm afraid I agree with this. Having been a YM I know just how difficult it can be to keep everyone happy and if someone has a slightly tricky horse it becomes all the harder. I know that to each person their horse is perfect and their number one priority and we all understand that but as a YO or YM you are in the very stressful position of dealing with lots of people who feel like this and I'm afraid it is usually down to facilities and time as to whether you can get it right for everyone.

I do appreciate that this YO was not ideal with your horse and that she has been rather unnecessary with withholding money but I honestly think that claiming for more than your deposit is stretching the point a bit, at the end of the day your horse did not settle, YO did not have a solution in her mind and you moved. Your horse is now happy - leave it there.


----------



## paddy555 (1 October 2015)

Doormouse said:



			I'm afraid I agree with this. Having been a YM I know just how difficult it can be to keep everyone happy and if someone has a slightly tricky horse it becomes all the harder. I know that to each person their horse is perfect and their number one priority and we all understand that but as a YO or YM you are in the very stressful position of dealing with lots of people who feel like this and I'm afraid it is usually down to facilities and time as to whether you can get it right for everyone.

I do appreciate that this YO was not ideal with your horse and that she has been rather unnecessary with withholding money but I honestly think that claiming for more than your deposit is stretching the point a bit, at the end of the day your horse did not settle, YO did not have a solution in her mind and you moved. Your horse is now happy - leave it there.
		
Click to expand...

I totally agree with this and Tiddlypom. To reclaim your deposit if you can prove the field was clean is one thing. To claim for the relocation costs of moving your horse is just ridiculous. You chose to put your horse on that yard. If you didn't think the YO's caring attitude was up to scratch why go in the first place. At the end of the day the YO has the right to run the business as they chose. If someone doesn't like it they don't have to buy the service. In view of what appear to be your attempts to claim for relocation and what could be looked at as a vendetta against the YO I just wonder if in fact the field was satisfactorily cleaned or if the YO does has a point?


----------



## Lizzie66 (1 October 2015)

Having just read your original post to confirm the "facts" you said that the grass was elbow deep. Arguably at this point you should have requested it was toped before you moved in as it would be extremely difficult for you to poo pick to her standards.

Having not done this then it is highly likely that you did miss poos in the long grass and that it could well have taken time to get them all out.

You signed a contract agreeing to pay for poo picking and failed to get her confirmation that the field had been left in a satisfactory state.

I would think that the in light of this you are likely to lose the court case and potentially have to pay for her time in preparing a defence against what is likely to prove a weak case. 

Yard owners always have the right to move horses to new paddocks and the fact that your horse didn't settle in the new paddock obviously gives you the option to discuss with the YO moving somewhere different (either an alternate paddock or to a new yard). 

You have mentioned that your horse is young and youngsters do tend to cause more problems as they can be boisterous and it could be the YO just wanted to keep the other horses on the yard happy. Also having your increasingly stroppy / obnoxious replies she could just have been pushing you to the point where you would leave.


----------



## Illusion100 (2 October 2015)

Tiddlypom said:



			And you are so wrong (as you have no knowledge of me). I would offer good facilities and, more importantly, superb care if I ever had liveries.

Asking for your deposit back is fair enough, if you are up for a fight. IMHO asking for relocation costs on top  paints you as a vexatious litigant.

People move yards all the time, in search of one that will better suit their horse. It would be a nonsense if they all started to claim for relocation fees each time.

I was, in fact, quite sympathetic to your situation at the time you started posting about it. You are now in danger of making yourself 'hot property', and if you need to move yards again, you may find it difficult to find somewhere prepared to take you on.
		
Click to expand...

I'm glad to hear that you would take superb care if you had liveries, yet you believe I am out of order for deciding to take action against a YO that did not, with a case defining the full reasons? 

This isn't about trying to get as much money back as I can, this is about a YO ignoring equine welfare. I cut my losses and moved my horse for his quality of life. I didn't give the YO the reason why I handed in my Notice as I wanted to leave things on good terms. Then they added insult to injury, so to speak, and I've decided to stand up about it. 

As for being 'hot property', I've never left a previous yard on bad terms and stay in touch with all of them, even those from when I was 11 with my 1st pony. I fully disclosed the reasons to my current YO as to why I was looking for a new yard and gave her the opportunity to view my horse pacing at 'old yard', the track he'd made, watch him being handled and then turn us down for livery with her if she had any doubts. I asked her what she would do if he started pacing at her yard, she said she'd help him in whatever way we agreed might work. 

He's very happy at her yard.

If people wouldn't want me as a livery because they have no interest in welfare, then I'm glad they'd refuse me. If that was made evident by the YO in question, I Would never moved to that yard and wouldn't have had this issue.


----------



## Illusion100 (2 October 2015)

Lizzie66 said:



			Having just read your original post to confirm the "facts" you said that the grass was elbow deep. Arguably at this point you should have requested it was toped before you moved in as it would be extremely difficult for you to poo pick to her standards.

Having not done this then it is highly likely that you did miss poos in the long grass and that it could well have taken time to get them all out.

You signed a contract agreeing to pay for poo picking and failed to get her confirmation that the field had been left in a satisfactory state.

I would think that the in light of this you are likely to lose the court case and potentially have to pay for her time in preparing a defence against what is likely to prove a weak case. 

Yard owners always have the right to move horses to new paddocks and the fact that your horse didn't settle in the new paddock obviously gives you the option to discuss with the YO moving somewhere different (either an alternate paddock or to a new yard). 

You have mentioned that your horse is young and youngsters do tend to cause more problems as they can be boisterous and it could be the YO just wanted to keep the other horses on the yard happy. Also having your increasingly stroppy / obnoxious replies she could just have been pushing you to the point where you would leave.
		
Click to expand...

'your increasingly stroppy / obnoxious replies'? What do you mean?


----------



## Illusion100 (2 October 2015)

paddy555 said:



			I totally agree with this and Tiddlypom. To reclaim your deposit if you can prove the field was clean is one thing. To claim for the relocation costs of moving your horse is just ridiculous. You chose to put your horse on that yard. If you didn't think the YO's caring attitude was up to scratch why go in the first place. At the end of the day the YO has the right to run the business as they chose. If someone doesn't like it they don't have to buy the service. In view of what appear to be your attempts to claim for relocation and what could be looked at as a vendetta against the YO I just wonder if in fact the field was satisfactorily cleaned or if the YO does has a point?
		
Click to expand...

I guess the Court Case will decide it all. That's their business after all.


----------



## Theocat (2 October 2015)

Illusion100 said:



			this is about a YO ignoring equine welfare.
		
Click to expand...

No - it isn't. It's about alleged breach if contract. You are asking the court to decide if you breached your contract by failing to clear the paddock, or she breached it by failing to return your deposit once you had.

You're clearly getting frustrated, but complicating things and getting wound up will not help your case. Just concentrate on what you're after - which is getting your deposit back.


----------



## Clodagh (2 October 2015)

I think well done for trying to get your deposit back, the woman is a nutter. Personally I think relocation costs are a step too far, but that is just MO. Best of luck anyway.


----------



## Achinghips (3 October 2015)

You are claiming for your deposit back and saying you poo picked the field. She believes you did not and left the field unpicked. It's up to the court to decide this. 

All this stuff about YO responsibilities, relocation expenses etc will be viewed as entirely malicious on your part. You were on DIY, not full livery, weren't you?  Do you think when people change yards because their horses needs are not met in any aspect, they then bring a claim against the YO because they didn't find the yard suitable?


----------



## EQUIDAE (5 October 2015)

Illusion100 - I'd temper your attitude a little in court if I were you. They don't like cocky smart alecs and if you talk in court the way you are on the forum it is unlikely to go in your favour. A little humility is likely to do you much more of a favour than the bordering-on-obnoxious stance you are taking currently.


----------



## Illusion100 (5 October 2015)

EQUIDAE said:



			Illusion100 - I'd temper your attitude a little in court if I were you. They don't like cocky smart alecs and if you talk in court the way you are on the forum it is unlikely to go in your favour. A little humility is likely to do you much more of a favour than the bordering-on-obnoxious stance you are taking currently.
		
Click to expand...

Typed replies are tricky, for instance, I've just re-read my reply to Tiddlypom and it can be read as I was in a bit of a temper but I wasn't. It was typed in a calm /contemplative frame of mind. 

Again, I'm not asking people to agree with me, this is the first time I've made the decision to take someone to Court, I have my reasons for that and I will win, lose or end up somewhere in between. 

I do not plan to irritate the Judge!



I have no plans to raise my voice, interrupt nor say what I really think in Court.


----------



## Echo Bravo (6 October 2015)

Good Luck hope you win


----------

