# When WOULD you hit a horse? Or would you?



## Enfys (2 June 2011)

I don't mean a slap when he's bitten you, or a "hey! buck your ideas up" tickle with a schooling whip, I mean a real "Oi, behave yourself!" type wallop.
Is it ever warranted?


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## AndySpooner (2 June 2011)

Never.


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## vikkiandmonica (2 June 2011)

I've never walloped any of my own horses, but when I was learning to ride on very naughty school ponies, they would often buck, nap and generally be little *****s, so yes, they would get a wallop (remembering I was under 10 at the time). This would literally be a one off thing after taking the nice approach with a squeeze, a kick, a tap, followed by a wallop, which generally meant the rest of the lesson was me riding very well behaved, forward horses. One wallop meant that they would then respond to very subtle aids, such as squeezes of my legs, not needing kicking or anything, and were generally very well behaved. 

I've managed to train my own horses without needing to do that, and considering 2 of them would deck me if I even tapped them with a whip, they definitely don't ever need a wallop


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## showqa (2 June 2011)

I did this when I was riding my 5 year old along the usual route and he decided he'd go sideways. Put my leg on to move him back over and he was totally ignoring it - and I could see a very nasty and deep ditch that any minute now we were going to disappear down. Yes - he had a real, sharp whack and was told to move forwards not sidewards - which he did and a bad accident was averted. He's 7 now and never had a repeat performance, I'm glad to say.


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## team barney (2 June 2011)

The only circumstances in which I would hit a horse is if said horse was in serious attack mode (believe me it happens) and I had no other escape.


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## darkhorse123 (2 June 2011)

I dont  think it is personally - if my boy is nasty when i pick his feet - snatching or kicking for example, i will shout oi and  slap his shoulder but not hard .
I also praise him heavily when he does behave.
Ive seen fellow liveries kick their horses in the head for beign naughty - I would never ever do that and have fallen out with them because of it  - that is  abuse plain and simple - i slap my boy the minute he is naughty to remind him of his manners and weh nhe is good he gets lots of praise
I know what im doing and its not in anger - i hate it when horses get kicked or punched in anger - abuse plain and simple


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## Enfys (2 June 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			Never.
		
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Even if it was to avert or stop an attack? As Team Barney says it does happen.  Perhaps you have never been on the blunt end of that kind of thing Andy, fortunate.


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## darkhorse123 (2 June 2011)

what do you mean by attack???
I think if a horse is in that dangerous mode you need to escape sharpish, not sure any whack would help tbh


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## Flame_ (2 June 2011)

My arab had two proper whacks tonight. He leapt right in front of an oncoming car because there was a little white gate in the hedge line which he couldn't see until he was alongside it. I felt mean because he doesn't have a naughty bone in his body, but how else do you explain to a horse that suicide because you've just seen a gate isn't appropriate behavior?


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## showqa (2 June 2011)

There are times I'm afraid I think that it is unavoidable. And by the way, I'm not talking about beating up a horse - I would never condone or do that. But there are times when a "discussion" just isn't going to work and isn't safe - and it is up to me to make sure, as far as it's possible, that we stay safe. Thankfully, I've never had to do it from the ground.


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## Kelly Marks (2 June 2011)

Out of interest Hooligan how often do your horses do these things? I don't carry a whip with any of my six and I've never had any of the problems you mention.  Perhaps you're just unlucky.


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## AndySpooner (2 June 2011)

I think I must be fortunate then, I've never been attacked by a horse.

Very often we are the architects of our own mis fortune when people get into these sort of situations.


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## HollyWoozle (2 June 2011)

I would hit a horse in self-defence if I had no other option and I was being attacked. I would also hit my horse if it was to prevent more serious injury, such as if she was pratting about in front of an approaching lorry and ignored my other attempts to move her (which doesn't happen but I would have no qualms about a smack to save our lives or serious injury).


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## Foxhunter49 (2 June 2011)

All I can say is that people who answer 'NEVER' have not been around horses of all types of temperaments and behaviours.

Yes, I will hit a horse if it warrants it. A horse that is nappy and refusing to go forward will get one hit on the right, one on the left and another back on the right - with my riding whip and without me changing hands and taking not more than a second or two to complete. I can assure you that he will feel it and if a bit thin skinned will be marked. 
I am not ashamed of this, in the natural world it is less than it would get for misbehaviour from a lead horse.

A horse that knows better but is refusing to load will get a crack across the backside or the back legs. (I am talking about seasoned travellers not youngsters or horses that are frightened)

As Enfys says, have a horse attack you and believe me, if you know what you are doing then you will retaliate with whatever is at hand.

I had a Welsh 'A' pony livery that I was told should never be turned out as he attacked when you went to catch him. He did! WHat is more, he meant it. When he came at me ears flat back and mouth open, punching with his front legs I hit him with the halter hard. He spun around and reversed back into me to kick. I again wrapped the halter around his back legs and he shot forward unfortunately taking the halter with him. He backed into me again and the only defence I had was my feet so, I kicked him as hard as I could and got him on his hamstring. He went on three legs across the field. I picked up the halter, walked up to him and caught him. He was never any problem again to catch.

If a horse lifts a leg in a threatening manner then I will set it up so it follows through and actually kicks. I will then punish it hard, usually with a yard broom bristles. End of kicking. 

It is very rare for me to resort to this sort of punishment but should the need arise then I sure as heck will. I can assure anyone that a correctly administered whack applied at the right time does not make a horse frightened of you, it actually makes the horse respectful of you and to actually trust you because it accepts that its behaviour was wrong and you, as leader have told shown it so.


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## Enfys (2 June 2011)

darkhorse123 said:



			what do you mean by attack???
I think if a horse is in that dangerous mode you need to escape sharpish, not sure any whack would help tbh
		
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 Sometimes you have no option, whilst trying to escape you don't actually think of anything, basic survival instinct kicks in and you literally fight for your life.

Horses DO attack people, for various reasons, I was once teaching a private lesson, it was hot and horrid, just walk and trot (pretty boring stuff) I didn't feel like working either so I can't entirely blame the pony, but she dumped her rider (intentionally) and went after me. By that I mean teeth bared, ears flat to her head, neck outstretched and front feet flailing, I have no illusions that should she have got to me before I flew over the fence she would have done serious damage, my Boss had been working in the school and she then went after him and he had to fend he off with a shovel.  Funny thing was, as soon as that pony stopped being used for lessons she reverted to being her usual sweet self, we never used her in the school again after that though. Just having a really bad day.

Then there was the time that I was skipping out a stall whilst an owner groomed her horse and he attacked her and then me. We weren't doing anything that we hadn't done a hundred times before...he was held off as we sidled out of the door with whatever we had in our hands. Physical reason that time, he had a brain tumour, that was discovered after he went after someone else and his owner had him destroyed that same day.

Then there is this kind of situation...the pony would have been killed if the appaloosa hadn't been driven off him, he was kneeling on him and shaking him by the neck. It took two people to get him off.


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## TinselTurkey (2 June 2011)

I have always been told to carry a whip with me when I ride because you never know when you may need to give them a tap. 

When were jumping at shows and horse has stopped twice at same jump so we get eliminated I will only ever smack him if I am 110% sure that it wasn't me ( riding a dodgy line to fence, not enough leg on) and 110% he was not doing it due to pain (Had this problem before and had their backs checked just to be sure). I will only ever smack a horse after stopping if I know I have done all the right things if its them being naughty then they will get a tap. I rarely ever have had to smack my horses when jumping because most of the time it is me thats made them stop. I feel sorry for the ponies/horses that are stopping due to the rider not  riding properly or out of pain and they then get walloped repeatedly. 

I am not against giving them a smack when there being naughty but I do not agree with smacking them because they got confused when you are not giving clear aids.


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## team barney (2 June 2011)

darkhorse123 said:



			what do you mean by attack???
I think if a horse is in that dangerous mode you need to escape sharpish, not sure any whack would help tbh
		
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I did say if there was no other means of escape, in certain circumstances you can't get out of the situation quickly and easily, and it some situations you have to try to protect others in the vicinity.  

By attack I mean a horse that has completely mentally lost it and is hell bent on seriously injuring and possibly killing you. They come at you attacking with both ends at once, teeth legs and body mass all used as weapons.  Whether through past treatment, mental problems or just plain bad breeding it can and does happen and people are lucky to survive it.  

Thankfully horses who are capable of such extreme behaviour are few and far between, the do exist though. One of the reasons I am so against stallions of questionable temperament being kept entire is because this, certain behaviours should mean instant gelding regardless of talent and bloodlines in my opinion, unfortunately this is rarely the course of action.


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## babymare (2 June 2011)

sorry my mare was a mess from being walloped  battered and beatened - i never raise a hand or voice to my 2 - my little mare esp knows from my boby language and " ah ah ah " when she is stepping over line - both are well mannered - open door of stable and will standquiet till told to walk on - but sorry there is no excuse to hit a horse even a biter - 2 wrongs dont make a right - seen the results of hiting a horse to often with happa and nope never a reason or excuse - think horse and work as a horse - michael peace is my hero  xx


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## ladyt25 (2 June 2011)

I have never been attacked by my horse although when my sister got her 12hh pony when she was 7, he actually hated children and would go for her teeth bared and all. Hmm, all she did was leg it! Lol. He was evil but then, thinking back he had probably been abused.

I have never been attacked by a horse as such but i have been guilty of belting mine in the past and now I know better i do feel bad about it. However, it certainly has not affected him andi wouldn't do it now. I guess I have learnt there are different ways and also there are generally reasons for a horse behaving in a certain way. I would NEVER hit a horse around his head though. I have slapped on occasion to avoid a nip (my youngster being a bit of a swine for it) but that's more reactive athan anything. I wouldn't intentionally ever whack something as an act of aggression or to get them to submit or something.


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## Spudlet (2 June 2011)

To save a horse that was going to do itself, or me, an injury - such as the example of a horse backing towards a ditch that was not listening to other aids. It's not ideal but it's better than a broken leg.


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## showqa (2 June 2011)

Oh my life - that picture is horrific.


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## ruth83 (2 June 2011)

Foxhunter49 said:



			All I can say is that people who answer 'NEVER' have not been around horses of all types of temperaments and behaviours.
		
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^^This^^


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## Snowysadude (2 June 2011)

I would if the horse is being a danger to me or to himself! Im really anti walloping for no good reason as I know a few people who do wallop for example if the horse pulls a face (I think they are secretly scared of their horses but hey). However having been run into shut stable doors by bargy horses and squashed so I cant breath I have booted a horse in the chest to escape, also current loan horse will come at you in the field and he has run people down, hes nasty and doesnt respect space so he has been hit with the headcollar before (again he was coming at me in a gallop, i got out the way and he span round and came back for more, ears flat back planning to flatten me). I can probably could the amount of times I have properly hit/kicked a horse though on one hand as I have then found alternative routes to deal with the problems


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## mymare (2 June 2011)

If it insulted my Mother 






Sorry.

Not sure actually, I'm very lucky that any horses I've had/ponies I have are all very laid back and well mannered (apart from one shettie on occasions  ), so I honestly never find it necessary.  Might be different if I'd had some bad mannered horses I suppose.  Maybe I've just been lucky.


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## team barney (2 June 2011)

Enfys said:



			Sometimes you have no option, whilst trying to escape you don't actually think of anything, basic survival instinct kicks in and you literally fight for your life.

Horses DO attack people, for various reasons, I was once teaching a private lesson, it was hot and horrid, just walk and trot (pretty boring stuff) I didn't feel like working either so I can't entirely blame the pony, but she dumped her rider (intentionally) and went after me. By that I mean teeth bared, ears flat to her head, neck outstretched and front feet flailing, I have no illusions that should she have got to me before I flew over the fence she would have done serious damage, my Boss had been working in the school and she then went after him and he had to fend he off with a shovel.  Funny thing was, as soon as that pony stopped being used for lessons she reverted to being her usual sweet self, we never used her in the school again after that though. Just having a really bad day.

Then there was the time that I was skipping out a stall whilst an owner groomed her horse and he attacked her and then me. We weren't doing anything that we hadn't done a hundred times before...he was held off as we sidled out of the door with whatever we had in our hands. Physical reason that time, he had a brain tumour, that was discovered after he went after someone else and his owner had him destroyed that same day.

Then there is this kind of situation...the pony would have been killed if the appaloosa hadn't been driven off him, he was kneeling on him and shaking him by the neck. It took two people to get him off.






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Was the pony ok?  Poor little love must have been so scared.


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## Dizzydancer (2 June 2011)

If the horse was putting me or itself in danger i would give it a whack and tell them to behave. There are times when a horse needs telling off, in the wild the lead horse does this so as we are leaders to our pet horses we need to do this to prevent serious accidents.
My farrier was nearly kicked in the head by my old yard owners shire as it decided to pr*t about when being shod...got a serious whack, those feet dont need to collide with people.


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## LeneHorse (2 June 2011)

HollyWoozle said:



			I would hit a horse in self-defence if I had no other option and I was being attacked. I would also hit my horse if it was to prevent more serious injury, such as if she was pratting about in front of an approaching lorry and ignored my other attempts to move her (which doesn't happen but I would have no qualms about a smack to save our lives or serious injury).
		
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This is exactly what I was going to say. I would have no hesitation giving mine a wallop if her benaviour was putting us in danger. She can be quite bolshy and nappy out hacking. However if her temperment was different eg if she was highly strung and spooky, I think hitting might exacerbate the problem. It depends on the horse and the situation,


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## StormyMoments (2 June 2011)

i have once with my 2 year old, she was all fine and dandy then she got me in the corner, i asked her to move over and instead she ran forward and double barrled me, she was trying to get me the little moo, my hands were level with my head and she kicked me in the arm and just missed my head, shes barefoot and she really was giving me a goodun'. she knew i was there because i was talking to her and grooming her, IMO there was no reason for doing that, so she got a wollop on the shoulder, turned back out then i went to the hospital to have my arm sorted :/ hmmmmmmm


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## 0ldmare (2 June 2011)

Well I whacked my 2 year old on the arse as hard as I could with a plastic shovel! Does that count? Basically I was unaware that she had worked out that if she turned an double barrelled people/horses in the paddock they went away. She thought that was fab. Nobody told me and I only found out when she nearly connected with someone. 

Anyway I was out poo picking in the paddock and she was mooching about watching me. She suddenly turned and reversed with ears flat back. So I whacked her as hard as I bloody could (which is not very hard with a plastic shovel  ) Anyway she never ever did it again so I think it was perfectly justified and I would do it again without hesitation!


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## muddygreymare (2 June 2011)

I'd Never properly wallop a horse unless it attacked me but I think tbh i'd probably just try to get out of the way sharpish as I think it would make it worse if it was in full blown attacking mode.

I am quite lucky though that my mare has never done that and I hope she never does and I have never had to properly 'hurt' her like that but she does occasionally need the odd 'oi behave yourself' nudge but even that is rare as she is usually a star.

So basically I in principal probably would but in reality would  probably try to get out of there pdq if i could and get help!


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## vikkiandmonica (2 June 2011)

I too have walloped a horse with a head collar before, a fairly nasty mare that would charge at you with teeth bared, turn around, and try and double barrel you. Her owner was about 12 at the time, I was 14, went to help her, and was faced with the mare. I must admit, I whacked her with all my might, as she was really serious about hurting us. 

I would never do that with any of mine, 1 because none of them would attack. Sometimes Wings pulls faces, but I think he must have been hit in the past, as if you walk towards him as though you're going to tell him off, not smack him, but make yourself seem threatening, he raises himself up to full height and pulls faces. If you just ignore him, and make yourself smaller and give him a stroke, he goes back to normal. 

I've never been attacked by any of mine though, so have never needed to wallop them due to them trying to get at me.


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## Mrs B (2 June 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			I think I must be fortunate then, I've never been attacked by a horse.

Very often we are the architects of our own mis fortune when people get into these sort of situations.
		
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Sanctimonious twaddle, Andy!

Yes, you are fortunate. And sheltered.

If you work with horses, in any capacity, you may find that you are dealing at short notice with other people's horses who may not have had the benefit of your enlightened approach.

Plus, occasionally, it transpires that you have to deal with an animal - even a well known one -which has gone right back to 'instinct' mode and is therefore quite a dangerous proposition.

In 40 plus years, I've not had to belt (and I DON'T mean beat up) a horse often - maybe half a dozen times in total - but I would not hesitate to do it again if my life, someone else's or the horse's was in danger.


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## team barney (2 June 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			Very often we are the architects of our own mis fortune when people get into these sort of situations.
		
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Some horses have mental issues, their pasts are not always disclosed.  Extreme situations are very rare thankfully.  They can happen anywhere, in a yard, stable or field.  Management is no measure against such behaviour when it is an unknown trait, which it often is.


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## Enfys (2 June 2011)

team barney said:



			Was the pony ok?  Poor little love must have been so scared.
		
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It was Charley at barely a year old at the time, he was very quiet and clingy for a few days, but soon bounced back, he actually looks in the mirror and sees this 17h hulk rather than a 32" scruffbutt!


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## showqa (2 June 2011)

Ah bless him Enfys.


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## Wolfie (2 June 2011)

Have and will again if needed. Rearing, napping, kicking, biting, aggression to other horses would require a slap, as would refusing to load when they know better. A sharp slap in time does a power of good. Not that I batter the daylights out of my horse, just don't fancy him, me or another horse getting injured because I faffed around. For example, when my boy was 5, he decided to start pushing the boundaries. Whilst in the grooming area he reared up and lunged at another horse with teeth and front feet. He got a thump he took to bed with him and has never done it again. When he is fresh, and just back in work he will hump, buck and kick out at cars and horses when hacking, a slap usually reminds him this is unacceptable. Most of the time I use a procush whip btw, certainly for comps etc, but I am not adverse to dealing out some corporal punishment (and would do so to children if I had any as well!).


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## Wolfie (2 June 2011)

Enfys - my last horse put down our colt a couple of times by biting him in the neck and then tried to trample him. It was pretty scary. They had to be separated. Doubt it would do it now though, as said 'colt' is a buff big cob who was late cut!


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## team barney (2 June 2011)

Enfys said:



			It was Charley at barely a year old at the time, he was very quiet and clingy for a few days, but soon bounced back, he actually looks in the mirror and sees this 17h hulk rather than a 32" scruffbutt!
		
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Cripes he was only a baby  glad was alright in the end, must have shaken him up though, and you.  

p.s my shortie thinks he is an awful lot bigger than he actually is too, and he used to be best mates with a horse he could virtually walk under!


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## Jennyharvey (2 June 2011)

Im quite lucky that none of my horses really need a smack.  i guess the only time i would smack a horse is if its behaviour is dangerous ie biting or kicking or being aggressive.  I would rather teach a horse NOT to be agressive, but sometimes a horse you dont know well will catch you off guard, and if they threaten me, i will defend myself if i can.


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## ladyt25 (2 June 2011)

We had a welsh cob (I query now if he was a rig) who would attach other horses and he meant it. He'd go in to a 'kill' type mode. It is very scary to witness and if a horse did that to a person then you would not have much option other than to belt it and/or RUN!!!


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## NicoleS_007 (2 June 2011)

If the horse is being a complete butt brain then yes. My last gelding liked to test people and if he could get away with murder he would!! There were quite a few times my little sister rode him and he would refuse to canter and buck with her just because he new he could get away with it as she wouldnt hit him. Cue me getting on cracking him across the arse, a swift wise up and he was an angel. If my wee sister got off to let me on just to show her something he was a hell of a lot more responsive, probably because he new he wouldnt get away with half arsed efforts. I could litterally sit on the horse and ask for a halt to canter, oh i miss him!!


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## much-jittering (2 June 2011)

Ditto those who have said yes for safety - yes I have and yes I would. Worked with a horse once who used to run backwards sometimes when it was halted (otherwise perfectly behaved under saddle), and one day when I was using him a hack escort along the verge back to the yard and waiting for another horse to finish having a wee he did it into the road - that was the last time I really belted a horse from on board and it must have been 3 years ago. If I hadn't he would have certainly put himself under a car. In hindsight the behaviour in the halt must have been pain related as we found other issues and had a work up and found all sorts of pelvic problems we'd not been informed about - does that mean I regret the 3 hard whacks accross the backside with a stick when he didn't listen to my 'stop it' kick? Of course not. Yes he was in pain and was reacting to pain, but he'd have been in a darn sight more if he'd thrown himself under a car.

In a similar situation somebody I work with has had a driver wind down the window and say 'you can't treat a horse like that', when she's put her heart and soul into making him come right without beating him, and when it's the difference between going under a lorry and not, does wallop him. The horse is finally coming out of the other end of behaviour that would have had plenty of people shoot it.

Ditto completely the person who said the people who say so emphatically 'never', have had the good fortune to never meet some of the extreme ends of equine behaviour. A horse who picks up a cat that happens to be walking by and flings it accross the lawn is clearly not a horse that is open to negotiation at that particular moment.


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## bex1984 (2 June 2011)

Yes. Murphy has had one serious mega-wallop (with a schooling whip) - he messed around when I was trying to load him and pushed me off the ramp into the road. Have never had a problem loading him since - it was a bit of a wonder cure, although I wasn't smacking him for not loading, he got a smack for pushing me.

He has had plenty of other smacks for pushing boundaries, barging, dragging me about, and when ridden for being a nappy pillock in the road/when people are close by on the ground. That's not to say I'd do it with every horse, but it works with Murphy.


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## AndySpooner (2 June 2011)

Some very extreme cases here. Does anyone seriously think a horse with a 'brain tumor' or similar would take any notice of a bloke with a stick, the truth is no, the horse wouldn't feel it. So what chance a child, youngster or woman.(no matter how feisty).


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## cptrayes (2 June 2011)

Over many years I have bought the cheapest horses that I could get hold of, which were very often ones that other people had spoiled by incorrect handling. That handling had never been too hard, it had always been too soft. I probably hit every one of them at one point or another. Every one of those horses left me capable of being managed by a novice, and many went when I sold them to children, with a clear conscience in spite of their previous behaviour, which in some cases had put previous riders in hospital.

I have seen more horses spoiled by not being hit when they needed it than by being hit when they did not deserve it. A horse hit when it does not deserve it forgives you. A horse uncorrected in a bad habit often gets worse until it hurts someone. 

My favourite one was a horse I bought whose owner said "you can't hit him and he won't cross bridges". I took him out on a hack and when I got to the bridge and he refused to cross it, I hit him and he walked across it. He never queried crossing a bridge again. He was, as so many horses are, looking for leadership.

I hit my five year old today. He was out in company with two horses he lives with, but he wanted to go home to his Shetland pony. He spun in the road and almost knocked the child off one of my other horses. I hit him to let him know it was unacceptable behaviour. I did it again when he did it a second time. And the third time I belted him as hard as I could with an extended arm onto his backside. At that point, he understood that doing it again was going to have some very severe consequences, and gave up. The behaviour was dangerous, unacceptable and the punishment was deserved.

There is an old saying "if in doubt hit the horse". It is not, as it sounds, a charter for horse abuse. What it means is "give the horse leadership even if you have to pretend. Don't let your own fear show. If that means that you have to hit the horse, that's better than leaving him wondering whether he can trust you". 

I find the current trend for saying that it is never necessary to hit a horse, at times ridiculous and more often dangerous.  Mind you, I shouldn't complain, I'm always going to be able to pick up cheap "badly behaved" horses when I want one.


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## talkinghorse (2 June 2011)

I would never hit a horse. 

I cannot use a whip to defend myself from a horse, it has far better weapons than I have, so it would always win.

I would not use a whip to punish a horse. If it does something that I don't want it to, I would look at my training and correct the problem. 

I would not use a whip to train a horse, my body movement and language are more effective.

Anyone who thinks hitting a horse will solve a problem is lacking in knowledge of horse behaviour. Anyone who thinks hitting a horse will punish an unwanted behaviour is lacking in knowledge of horse psychology. 

All you will achieve by hitting a horse is to teach the horse that it can't trust you. If you do it often enough, you can even teach a horse to be very dangerous, so you need to take responsibility for what you do.

Some of us make a living solving problems with horses that others have created, it would be better for horses if the owners had the time, patience and education to put us out of business.


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## OneInAMillion (2 June 2011)

You have to be able to say that you would consider it. We have to remember that these horses are much heavier/bigger than us and if they start throwing their weight around they could end up putting you in danger. And no I'm not talking about beating a horse but I won't let a  horse walk all over me. It isn't fun


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## Kokopelli (2 June 2011)

A good wallop, never! But sometimes a reminder of manners needs to be done, although I normally do these by voice.

I had a horse once who also had a brain tumour and he was very nasty. I fell off him once in the school and he went for me teeth bared and was trying to stamp on me. I stumbled to my feet and jumped the fence luckily with only a few bites and kicks and nothing too serious.

I did not have the chance to hit him and even if I did it wouldn't have done anything as he wouldn't have felt it not with the adrenalin going around his body.


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## AndySpooner (2 June 2011)

talkinghorse said:



			I would never hit a horse. 

I cannot use a whip to defend myself from a horse, it has far better weapons than I have, so it would always win.

I would not use a whip to punish a horse. If it does something that I don't want it to, I would look at my training and correct the problem. 

I would not use a whip to train a horse, my body movement and language are more effective.

Anyone who thinks hitting a horse will solve a problem is lacking in knowledge of horse behaviour. Anyone who thinks hitting a horse will punish an unwanted behaviour is lacking in knowledge of horse psychology. 

All you will achieve by hitting a horse is to teach the horse that it can't trust you. If you do it often enough, you can even teach a horse to be very dangerous, so you need to take responsibility for what you do.

Some of us make a living solving problems with horses that others have created, it would be better for horses if the owners had the time, patience and education to put us out of business.
		
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^^Like^^


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## Baggybreeches (2 June 2011)

cptrayes said:



			Over many years I have bought the cheapest horses that I could get hold of, which were very often ones that other people had spoiled by incorrect handling. That handling had never been too hard, it had always been too soft. I probably hit every one of them at one point or another. 

I have seen more horses spoiled by not being hit when they needed it than by being hit when they did not deserve it. A horse hit when it does not deserve it forgives you. A horse uncorrected in a bad habit often gets worse until it hurts someone. 

I find the current trend for saying that it is never necessary to hit a horse at times ridiculous and often dangerous.
		
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This is very true!
I hit a horse when it is warranted, which is never at any defined time. I currently have a 17.1hh TB who I have owned for 6 years and probably smacked with a whip twice in total in all that time, he is a very sensitive well mannered horse and it is usually best to comfort him than smack him. I also have in a 12hh Section A pony who has come for reschooling because she has been allowed to run riot for the past 2 years and her reaction to anything she didn't like was to rear up (right up). With one or two good 'sessions' this pony has made a remarkable turn around but will never be suitable for these people she is far too smart for them. The pony craves discipline, routine and work and hasn't needed a good smack for 3 weeks now.


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## coen (2 June 2011)

Yes I would wallop a horse if need be (would not beat them). I used to be completely against hitting them, didn't agree with harsh measures like chifneys ect but the truth is some horses do need putting in place on occasion and if they are not then there behaviour can escalate and become dangerous.
Oh and this isn't ferring to horses with mental problems or who have had bad lives, some horses just like to be boss and push the boundaries.


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## Wagtail (2 June 2011)

I allow my mare to nip me and basically play with me but not hurt me. If she hurt me then yes I would 'nip' her back! I don't need to now though. She knows exactly what my pain threshold is and if she inadvertently goes too far then she startles and looks at me waiting for the nip. So I don't need to do it any more. She knows


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## Holly Hocks (2 June 2011)

Strange that this post has come up today.  I have had my ex-racer mare a year - I've noticed recently that she's started to walk all over me.  She has been very ill  with various things over the last 10 months, so I've tended to be just too kind to her - she has got exactly what she wants.   Tonight I brought her back from 2 days of lameness investigation at the vets - she was in her stable and had eaten her tea.  She was kicking the door to go out.  I went in and was trying to put her fetlock ring on her back leg (she is a self harmer, so wears it for protection) and for the first time ever she lashed out at me - and she was fast.  I got out of the way, but before I had got upright, she swung her hind quarters round at me and sent me flying into the wall, really hurting my shoulder (going to casualty in the morning!).  Even though I was in agony, I picked up the stick which was right outside the door and smacked her on her chest to get her back from the door which she was then barging to get out of, while saying "back".  I did this a few times, although I only tapped her with the stick after the first time.  She now knows the word "back" and it will be reinforced (hopefully without the stick) until she learns to respect my space.  I don't feel proud of smacking her,  but it's made me realise that I really do need to be more firm with her, or I am going to end up being more injured than tonight.


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## ladyt25 (2 June 2011)

OneInAMillion said:



			You have to be able to say that you would consider it. We have to remember that these horses are much heavier/bigger than us and if they start throwing their weight around they could end up putting you in danger. And no I'm not talking about beating a horse but I won't let a  horse walk all over me. It isn't fun
		
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I agree. I work on the basis that horses 'punish' each other when another in the lower level of the pecking order steps out of line so, if my horse pushes the boundaries with me then he will be reprimanded (this does not mean I belt him though) IF i had to though i guess I would. I have seen my pony go absolutely ballistic with one of the lower ranking of our horses when said lower ranking individual accidentally bit him in his excitement to get to food. Blimey did HE know he was out of line.My pony went mad with him, he got a full on belting, chased away, bitten, squealed at etc etc, he was not allowed near for a good 3 mins (and that was when we were still there!!!). It was quite interesting to watch mind.


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## SophieLouBee (2 June 2011)

My horse gets a whack most days tbh, he's big, rude and takes the pee. He'll barge you right over if you don't assert yourself, I shout first, then failing that he gets a smack, and as hard as I belt him, it still must feel like a gnat on his giant ass anyways. I hold the whip with him when the farrier comes, and he usually gets at least one belt because, again, rude, and takes the farrier, tools and all with him when he goes. If we have all hell breaking loose, someone getting cornered over food etc, I get the lunge whip out and crack it.

Apart from him I don't need to really smack the others, they know as soon as my voice raises that I'v had quite enough as whatever is going on. When they have a tiff in the field I lean over the gate, give a menacing stare and shout 'OI', they all stop dead and pull the most sweet innocent faces, as if nothing was happening, then they skulk off and eat. 

So yeah, I smack my horses, when they deserve it, and guess what, they all still think I'm their biological mother and follow me around the field like the pied piper! Love and respect go very well together!


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## siennamum (2 June 2011)

cptrayes said:



			Over many years I have bought the cheapest horses that I could get hold of, which were very often ones that other people had spoiled by incorrect handling. That handling had never been too hard, it had always been too soft. I probably hit every one of them at one point or another. Every one of those horses left me capable of being managed by a novice, and many went when I sold them to children, with a clear conscience in spite of their previous behaviour, which in some cases had put previous riders in hospital.

I have seen more horses spoiled by not being hit when they needed it than by being hit when they did not deserve it. A horse hit when it does not deserve it forgives you. A horse uncorrected in a bad habit often gets worse until it hurts someone. 

My favourite one was a horse I bought whose owner said "you can't hit him and he won't cross bridges". I took him out on a hack and when I got to the bridge and he refused to cross it, I hit him and he walked across it. He never queried crossing a bridge again. He was, as so many horses are, looking for leadership.

I hit my five year old today. He was out in company with two horses he lives with, but he wanted to go home to his Shetland pony. He spun in the road and almost knocked the child off one of my other horses. I hit him to let him know it was unacceptable behaviour. I did it again when he did it a second time. And the third time I belted him as hard as I could with an extended arm onto his backside. At that point, he understood that doing it again was going to have some very severe consequences, and gave up. The behaviour was dangerous, unacceptable and the punishment was deserved.

There is an old saying "if in doubt hit the horse". It is not, as it sounds, a charter for horse abuse. What it means is "give the horse leadership even if you have to pretend. Don't let your own fear show. If that means that you have to hit the horse, that's better than leaving him wondering whether he can trust you". 

I find the current trend for saying that it is never necessary to hit a horse, at times ridiculous and more often dangerous.  Mind you, I shouldn't complain, I'm always going to be able to pick up cheap "badly behaved" horses when I want one.
		
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Completely agree with this. I really think people who declare they never have hit, or will, hit a horse either have one or two amiable horses, have horses which walk all over them, or really have little experience of horses.

You could spend months trying to reinforce that something is not desirable (like napping), or you could give your horse a sharp smack on the backside and solve the problem in 10 minutes. 

If you are dominant with a horse and do smack it, it doesn't stop respecting you or lose it's trust, in fact the opposite happens. My youngster was aggressive on the ground when I first got him, he still tries it on periodically. He has to be put back in his place with the minimum of fuss and a little rough justice. Pussyfooting around with a 16.2 who will not back down if you square up to him, is not an option.


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## cptrayes (2 June 2011)

talkinghorse said:



			I would never hit a horse.
		
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Good for you. 



talkinghorse said:



			I cannot use a whip to defend myself from a horse, it has far better weapons than I have, so it would always win.
		
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Rubbish. The horse does not win. You can use psychology, plus the whip if psychology is not enough, to put the horse in its place. Horses do not generally fight to the death with a trainer, they give in at the first sharp reminder.



talkinghorse said:



			I would not use a whip to punish a horse. If it does something that I don't want it to, I would look at my training and correct the problem.
		
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Bully for you. While you are contemplating how you will look at your training, the horse that someone else has spoiled has meanwhile smashed you into the stable wall breaking your arm. 



talkinghorse said:



			I would not use a whip to train a horse, my body movement and language are more effective.
		
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Not always they aren't. Sometimes a horse is bolshy because it is actually scared. With some horses like that, giving them a whack to tell them you are in control allows them to release decision making to you, and they can be instantly happier and less nervous about life. It beats me why people think is is always better to take a longer time to train a horse, when it can mean that the horse is unhappy for longer than it needs to be.  "Quick fixes" are not always the evil that they are made out to be. 



talkinghorse said:



			Anyone who thinks hitting a horse will solve a problem is lacking in knowledge of horse behaviour. Anyone who thinks hitting a horse will punish an unwanted behaviour is lacking in knowledge of horse psychology.
		
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Utter rubbish. Hitting horses at the right time does solve problems. In my earlier example, the horse was over his fear of being hit and his fear of bridges in 30 seconds and they never reoccurred.  The result required was achieved in double quick time with no visible upset for the horse. It is perfectly possible to train a horse out of unwanted behaviours by hitting it, and often correct to do so. I have a Shetland who like all Shetlands would raid the feed shed if he could. On the one occasion he got in there and had his head in the dry sugar beat (a death sentence) I kicked him as hard as I could until he scrambled out of there. He's never gone in there again, and if he looks as if he wants to, the simple word "no" makes him turn in the other direction. He seems to have a clear memory of how much trouble it got him into to be in the feed shed, and that's exactly how I want it, in case my OH leaves the door open by mistake again like he sometimes does. I want him scared of that room for his own safety. No amount of positive reinforcement would have the same result with a stomach orientated Shetland. 



talkinghorse said:



			All you will achieve by hitting a horse is to teach the horse that it can't trust you. If you do it often enough, you can even teach a horse to be very dangerous, so you need to take responsibility for what you do.
		
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Rubbish. I hit my horses and they follow me everywhere when I go into their field. I tack them up, groom them, worm them, trim their feet, plait them, bath them and do EVERYTHING with them without tying them up. They trust me absolutely. 

You 'd have to be a complete idiot to continue to hit a horse you were teaching to be dangerous. It's far easier to ruin a horse by being too soft than too hard.



talkinghorse said:



			Some of us make a living solving problems with horses that others have created, it would be better for horses if the owners had the time, patience and education to put us out of business.
		
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I think you probably make a living out of people who don't know how to handle horses, not out of people who hit them occasionally. I'd eat my hat if most of the owners of the horses you train are not too inexperienced, too soft or too inconsistent rather than too hard. On the other hand, it certainly is possible to make a living out of buying horses cheap that other people have ruined and putting them right with a bit of good discipline and rewards for good behaviour and then selling them for twice or three times what you paid for them.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (2 June 2011)

Yes, I have on occasions when warranted (just like many other long-term owners/breakers/breeders etc).

Its NOT nice to experience extreme behaviour, and - I've seen it over the years 

AndySpooner - believe me, some I've had were unhandled (from birth) and to have a heavy 4 or 5 yr old pinning you down or trying to attack (and meaning it!) is quite frankly very dangerous. How can you say that 'its the way its been previously treated?  because it has not had ANY human contact........so no 'treatment' good/bad/indifferent can be pointed at as a cause for such an extreme outburst.

Anyways, could write on various cases from here to kingdom come, but am in total agreement with the likes of Enfys


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## Wagtail (2 June 2011)

I was once severely attacked by a mare. All I did was lean over her door to check if she had haylage. Her teeth clamped around my upper arm like a vice. I had 5 layers of clothing on as it was mid winter. My arm was black from shoulder to elbow. At the time I picked up everything at hand and threw it at her! Later on that year she kicked my trainer and ruptured her spleen, then attacked her owner in the field with her front legs and broke 3 ribs.


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## Dolly_Mixture (2 June 2011)

The only time I've really whacked a horse was after I'd put up with a horrid animal for WEEKS charging at me every time I went in the field, rearing at my head, baring teeth, biting, turning round to double barrel me... I'd had enough and pelted him across the rump with a lead rope. Wouldnt have done any damage, but it gave him a shock and made him remember what little manners he had!!


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## amandap (2 June 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			I think I must be fortunate then, I've never been attacked by a horse.
		
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Me neighter. Nor have I been bitten. I would never hit a horse and I hope I will never get myself into a situation where a horse feels it has to attack me to defend itself. If a horse feels it has to kick, bite or attack imo something is going wrong somewhere, either with the horses physical state, mental state or humans approach. That's my take on things anyway.

I haven't read the whole thread but my views on this subject are well known on here from my previous postings.


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## Hot_Toddy7 (2 June 2011)

I walloped my mare a few weeks ago, that was because she pratted around in canter and then threw herself sideways, 3ft ditch a foot away, gave her a smack but she fell into it anyways! One out of hours vets bill later and marey was fine! Again would only smack if in danger (although in that situation, it didn't work!)


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## Dolly_Mixture (2 June 2011)

Amandap, are you being serious!!? 
The horse referred to in my posts generally an arse, and was massively testing boundaries. Nothing to do with "attacking me to defend itself"!!


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## Cop-Pop (2 June 2011)

Do you mean hit with a whip or a hand?  I gave my mare a damn good smack with a whip the first time she reared up with me on her - it was pure temper as she was in a strop.  She's never done it again.  I gave her a fairly hard smack with my hand today when she decided to try and squash me against a wall.  I don't think it mortally injured her tho


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## Jenni_ (2 June 2011)

When I'm on the ground, especially at a show, and lumi gets excited about a mare - sometimes a wallop over the chest with a stick just reminds him who's in charge and makes him back off and keep 4 feet on the ground. Their skin is much thicker than ours - a good wallop from us is normally no more than a slap about the ear to us for them!


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## JoJo_ (2 June 2011)

Hmm ive not had to wallop a horse often at all. I wouldnt hit a horse that wasnt mine either unless it was a completely dangerous situation. Its up to the owner to discipline horse. The two ive had of my own have had good manners and not needed any smacks really. My mare was really sensitive and the gelding I have now is good. I have walloped him for trying to barge and squishing me against the stable door as he wouldnt move back but he's normally responsive. And i've walloped him for nearly biting once. He occasionally thinks my fingers are carrots I think.


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## AndySpooner (2 June 2011)

amandap said:



			Me neighter. Nor have I been bitten. I would never hit a horse and I hope I will never get myself into a situation where a horse feels it has to attack me to defend itself. If a horse feels it has to kick, bite or attack imo something is going wrong somewhere, either with the horses physical state, mental state or humans approach. That's my take on things anyway.

I haven't read the whole thread but my views on this subject are well known on here from my previous postings.
		
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^^Like^^


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## KateB999 (2 June 2011)

Never.  You don't see horses hitting one another, so why would it mean anything to them if we do it.


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## Cinnamontoast (2 June 2011)

If he's behaving dangerously, he'll get a slap or a shout, nothing too heavy. 

He got the biggest slap of his life at the weekend when I went to catch in with the dog. He went for the dog, ears back, foreleg strike, I'm afraid he was absolutely thumped  Had he killed the dog, I would have sold him, no way could I have kept him. I was terrified and I probably overreacted, but after 3 years of owning him, he should be used to the dog. The dog was sat at my feet: he knows how to behave round horses.

I think to say you would never hit a horse is naive and stupid. It shows a lack of sense: how do you tell a horse it's wrong/dangerous? You back up your leg with your stick, why not use a little forceful behaviour to back up training?

A friend was telling me how they treat horses in Ireland-a slap for any naughtiness, rarely a pat. My lad is Irish and came to me head shy and I'd never touch his head. 

I'd rather my horse respected me and didn't walk all over me. He gets jealous if I talk to other horses, shouts his face off when he sees me and won't let me out of the field without strokes/cuddles. I don't think he fears me, but he damn sure respects me.


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## joeanne (2 June 2011)

Horses may not hit one another, but they certainly kick and bite one another to reprimand and/or determine thier place in a herd. 
But once in a while you will come across a horse thats either badly managed and dangerous, or plain nasty, although this is fairly rare.
If a horse came at me with the intention of attacking, and I had no way to remove myself from the situation, that horse would get whatever came to hand in order to stop it in its tracks.


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## AndySpooner (2 June 2011)

KateB999 said:



			Never.  You don't see horses hitting one another, so why would it mean anything to them if we do it.
		
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^^Like^^


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## Cinnamontoast (2 June 2011)

KateB999 said:



			Never.  You don't see horses hitting one another, so why would it mean anything to them if we do it.
		
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Do you even know what a horse looks like?! My first horse was PTS because another horse double barrelled him and broke his leg. If that's not hitting, then what is? Have you ever seen stallions fight? They can fight to the death. A friend's mare has a dip out of her neck where another horse bit a huge chunk out of her. Mine was covered in bites when he first went into his current herd. 

The unwanted behaviour stops when the horse is smacked: my horse was about to strike my springer with his foreleg-should I have just shouted at him? Think I'd have a dead dog. 

Get real!


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## Tnavas (2 June 2011)

talkinghorse said:



			I would never hit a horse. 

I cannot use a whip to defend myself from a horse, it has far better weapons than I have, so it would always win. 
*Many a time a yard broom or shovel has saved me from 'agressive behaviour' and one of these was a result of someone with the same approach as you have - horse didn't reverse on me again at feeding time.*

I would not use a whip to punish a horse. If it does something that I don't want it to, I would look at my training and correct the problem. 
*Depends on what has not been done - if it is not moving away from your leg, then yes stop and look at your level of training - but if it is napping because it doesn't want to leave its friend and you spend time thinking of the flaws in your training you have just cemented a bad behaviour habit. Horses learn bad behaviour in exactly the same way as they learn good behaviour - allowance and repetition*

I would not use a whip to train a horse, my body movement and language are more effective. 
*It is great if you are able to do that but not every horse is as sensitive as that. Did you have the horse from it's birth and been the only person who has ever ridden it. Because if not then there will have been times when I'm sure someone will  have used a stick to back up a leg aid*

Anyone who thinks hitting a horse will solve a problem is lacking in knowledge of horse behaviour. Anyone who thinks hitting a horse will punish an unwanted behaviour is lacking in knowledge of horse psychology. 
*Horse psychology - is do as the person higher up in the pecking order tells you or else! Test me & I'll sort you out.

You only have to watch herd interaction to know that body language is the first instructiion, example guarding pile of hay. Ears back - "don't come near MY hay!" Ears back, bum swung round "Are you thick or something I said this is MY hay - go away" Ears back, bum swung round, whallop! "Yes stupid I did tell you it was my hay" - got the message?"*

All you will achieve by hitting a horse is to teach the horse that it can't trust you. If you do it often enough, you can even teach a horse to be very dangerous, so you need to take responsibility for what you do.

*For a horse to trust you it has to look at you as herd leader, if not it will use it's own instincts to look after it's self. This may include fleeing, biting, kicking, bucking, rearing, pushing you over and stomping on you. If it doesn't look at you as herd leader then you are in for some fun.*

Some of us make a living solving problems with horses that others have created, it would be better for horses if the owners had the time, patience and education to put us out of business.
		
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I have to laugh at this - are you really being serious? or have you only had one horse in your life? DO you do anything that tests your horses courage and your leadership skills or do you just ride in your paddock.

I once hit my stroppy TB - who I love to pieces - so hard that I saw the tail of my schooling whip on the otherside of his tummy. He was being a prat about going past the bale conveyor which he had passed countless times inthe years that I'd owned him. After him planting himself and threatening to spin and go up I turned my schooling whip upside down and dropped him one. He went straight forward and never again played up when we went past the conveyor.

My most succesful horse came to me with jumping problems - he would refuse everyfence every time - only did it at shows, weak rider had allowed him to stop and he knew three times and we are out of the ring. Surprise for him - first approach he stopped, 2nd approach, Stick turned around, whack, whack, whack and over we went and he never stopped again.

I was taught to always carry a whip as you never know when you might need it - even to fend off dogs!

Spare the rod, spoil the child - is a good saying and maybe there would be less crime & violence in the world if a few more children had received the smacks we got as kids. Then you could leave your doors unlocked, your kids could play in the street safely and teaching was an enjoyable profession where your pupils automatically had respect for you and behaved in class. 

This works too for the horse - the rod does not necessarily mean a whip but disciplpine that ensures respectful behaviour.


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## Cinnamontoast (2 June 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			^^Like^^
		
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Never used a whip, mate?


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## AndySpooner (2 June 2011)

cinammontoast said:



			Never used a whip, mate?
		
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No, no whips or crops at our place.


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## Hot_Toddy7 (2 June 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			No, no whips or crops at our place.
		
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Are your horses kind of wooden looking and full of fluff with a stitched on saddle?


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## Hollycatt (2 June 2011)

I am not a violent person, and I have never hit a horse in temper, but I certainly would hit one if I had to. With my own it is rarely necessary, but if handling other peoples then you have to react as you see fit at the time.

One of my youngsters for example, when scared on the ground would run over me as she wanted to be close to me for comfort.  I am not a horse and cannot take a 500kg animal running up to me and walloping herself against me.  So yes I did hit her with with a headcoller in her face once for self defence. This happened very shortly after I had bought her.  She respected my space but not enough when the chips were down. She never ran over me again.  She also squashed me against a wall once when having her mane combed which she disliked, and yes she was smacked hard and didn't do it again. She did this with everyone new that handled her.  She wasn't scared, just testing the boundaries.  A smart smack and she understood it wasn't an option for her, and was happier as result as she knew where she stood and accepted what was required of her. 

There are situations such as a veterinary emergency when what you require from the horse has to be complied with and there is not time to pussyfoot about, taking time to habituate the horse to this that and the other.  I use positive reinforcement all of the time, but my horses all also understood that some things such as manners are non negociable.


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## Kat (2 June 2011)

I take the view that I can't dish out punishment on the same scale as a horse would receive from its peers so it hardly going to cause as serious problem if I dish out the occasional slap. 

I'd prefer not to have to do it, but horses aren't like bicycles!


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## Cinnamontoast (2 June 2011)

Hot_Toddy7 said:



			Are your horses kind of wooden looking and full of fluff with a stitched on saddle?
		
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^^ like

I think this person is new to riding. Very unrealistic.


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## muffinino (2 June 2011)

Enfys said:



			I don't mean a slap when he's bitten you, or a "hey! buck your ideas up" tickle with a schooling whip, I mean a real "Oi, behave yourself!" type wallop.
Is it ever warranted?
		
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I have actually walloped one that was launching at my horse in the field whilst I was stood in between them. When all you can see is 16.2 of teeth coming towards your 5'1'' head, you don't feel too bad about walloping a horse one on the muzzle with a rope and the one on the behind with the headcollar whilst growling very loudly at it to F off. Instinct takes over at that point and fluffy bunnies can say what they like - it was him or me as he was herd leader and thought he was boss of anyone, horse or human, that was in the field. I'm pretty sure he would have had worse from other horses and he would bugger off toot sweet when he saw me coming from then on.


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## AndySpooner (2 June 2011)

Hot_Toddy7 said:



			Are your horses kind of wooden looking and full of fluff with a stitched on saddle?
		
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Lol, one's an arab she's the other half's horse, I don't ride her because I think I'm too heavy. Mine is a QH and as sharpe as a razer, She can gallop from a standing start and stop from a gallop. Not many horses round here can keep up with the QH over a short gallop even the TB's, all good fun.


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## Trinity Fox (2 June 2011)

We have had all types  of horses over the years we point to point compete and have a few young ones to sell on and a few rescue cases i have to say i have seen more ruined by over aggressive handling than not.

However you must show you are in charge with horses and remember they kick and bite to reprimand each other so giving a sharp reminder is ok.
You should never do this if you have lost your temper never hit in the face or kick or deliver a prolonged use of any type of hitting or attack.

You should only use force in a controlled way unless of course you or someone else or another animal is in danger.

Of course hitting means different things to different people we are pretty feeble compared to what horses do to each other but if it is scaring a horse or being done in anger then it has gone too far.


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## muffinino (2 June 2011)

For the record, I have also smacked horses pretty hard when they've messed around on the road and put themselves in danger. I've also smacked one when he tried to kick a hound - bunny huggers do your worst, it cannot be harsher than the reaction you get if that happens!


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## AndySpooner (2 June 2011)

Trinity Fox said:



			We have had all types  of horses over the years we point to point compete and have a few young ones to sell on and a few rescue cases i have to say i have seen more ruined by over aggressive handling than not.

However you must show you are in charge with horses and remember they kick and bite to reprimand each other so giving a sharp reminder is ok.
You should never do this if you have lost your temper never hit in the face or kick or deliver a prolonged use of any type of hitting or attack.

You should only use force in a controlled way unless of course you or someone else or another animal is in danger.

Of course hitting means different things to different people we are pretty feeble compared to what horses do to each other but if it is scaring a horse or being done in anger then it has gone too far.
		
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I like this, what is the saying, 'where knowledge ends, violence begins'.


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## Foxhunter49 (2 June 2011)

So, for those of you that would NEVER hit a horse here is a scenario and I would be interested to know what you would do in the situation.

You take in a big solid warmblood mare for the owner who has had a car accident. The chap who transports the horse to you warns you that it has a reputation for being nasty. Livery is turn out with feed. 
You turn the horse out with two other mares and later go to feed all three in the field. As you get to the gate the new mare charges the gate, ears flat back meaning to get you. There is no way she is going to let you get into that field although you could give her her feed at the gate and clamber over the fence to fed the other two but, what if she leaves her feed to come get you? 

What would you do in this situation? This mare was not just threatening but meaning business and had she made contact she would have done serious damage.


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## FanyDuChamp (2 June 2011)

NEVER. I have a horse that has been badly abused and will never quite be always able to be the trusting loving horse that he is underneath. Physical abuse is never acceptable. Remember they are powerful, quick and strong animals they choose not to hurt you, how can you abuse that trust?

FDC


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## muffinino (2 June 2011)

Wagtail said:



			I was once severely attacked by a mare. All I did was lean over her door to check if she had haylage. Her teeth clamped around my upper arm like a vice. I had 5 layers of clothing on as it was mid winter. My arm was black from shoulder to elbow. At the time I picked up everything at hand and threw it at her! Later on that year she kicked my trainer and ruptured her spleen, then attacked her owner in the field with her front legs and broke 3 ribs.
		
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I've known 2 horses that would merrily attack you over the door just because you were standing there.


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## FanyDuChamp (2 June 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			I like this, what is the saying, 'where knowledge ends, violence begins'.
		
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I love that saying. You deal with issues, I've never seen violence solve a problem.
FDC


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## muffinino (2 June 2011)

KateB999 said:



			Never.  You don't see horses hitting one another, so why would it mean anything to them if we do it.
		
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No, but they do kick and bite each other pretty damn hard!


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## Hot_Toddy7 (3 June 2011)

I think the main reason horses don't punch each other, is because they don't go to pubs and they don't have hands (just my opinion!)


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## FanyDuChamp (3 June 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			I think I must be fortunate then, I've never been attacked by a horse.

Very often we are the architects of our own mis fortune when people get into these sort of situations.
		
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We REALLY need a "like" button. You really talk some good sense Andy.
FDC


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## Tnavas (3 June 2011)

Fany Du Champ said:



			NEVER. I have a horse that has been badly abused and will never quite be always able to be the trusting loving horse that he is underneath. Physical abuse is never acceptable. Remember they are powerful, quick and strong animals they choose not to hurt you, how can you abuse that trust?

FDC
		
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Because when it suits they would be the first to abuse your trust - you see this everyday when a novice rider gets their first horse, or the cunning riding school pony susses out the rider is a little nervous.

Don't EVER underestimate the power and reactions of a horse or pony.


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## ngrace (3 June 2011)

This has become very 'holier than thou'..

And Fany Du Champ ''Remember they are powerful, quick and strong animals they choose not to hurt you, how can you abuse that trust?''
Not sure if you missed previous posts, but I think thats the point alot of people have made, the horse has chosen to hurt them.


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## Hollycatt (3 June 2011)

Fany Du Champ said:



			NEVER. I have a horse that has been badly abused and will never quite be always able to be the trusting loving horse that he is underneath. Physical abuse is never acceptable. Remember they are powerful, quick and strong animals they choose not to hurt you, how can you abuse that trust?

FDC
		
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The point is when they DO chose to hurt you.  Maybe what they are doing would not hurt another horse too much, but it could kill a human. There  is a big difference between a frightened, abused horse and one that has made a decision to test the water and take the upper hand.


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## AndySpooner (3 June 2011)

Foxhunter49 said:



			So, for those of you that would NEVER hit a horse here is a scenario and I would be interested to know what you would do in the situation.

You take in a big solid warmblood mare for the owner who has had a car accident. The chap who transports the horse to you warns you that it has a reputation for being nasty. Livery is turn out with feed. 
You turn the horse out with two other mares and later go to feed all three in the field. As you get to the gate the new mare charges the gate, ears flat back meaning to get you. There is no way she is going to let you get into that field although you could give her her feed at the gate and clamber over the fence to fed the other two but, what if she leaves her feed to come get you? 

What would you do in this situation? This mare was not just threatening but meaning business and had she made contact she would have done serious damage.
		
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I don't feed lose horses in fields. Ours are always brought in to feed. I had 30 riding horses and when we were feeding them they all came in to be fed. A lot of scenario's like you describe are just common sense really. Of course horses will sqwabble over feed and if you don't have the 'horse sense' not to let it happen or try and sort it when it has, then you are asking to get hurt.


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## Cindygirl (3 June 2011)

Hi
Dont reply on this site very often but just had to in this topic.
I have only truly hit one horse in my life and having backed young horses for more than 25 years I think that is not to bad. It was a heavy weight 6 year old cob that I had backed 5 weeks previously & all was going well but I had a different handler 1 day while I mounted and this mare decided to try & kill the man who was holding her after I got on, que me reversing my hold on my whip & really cracking the horse but only once & it never done anything like it again. Actually went on to be a wonderful RDA horse.
For all those people thaat say they are lucky enough not to belive horses wont attack can I just ask why I have spgnificant scaring on my face & right shoulder after being attacked by two very well treated ownwd from foal horses that decided to try to treat me like a non dominant herd member by grabing me by any available surface, pulling me down & trying to stamp on me. This happened when I was 8 & 10 and wasnt annoying the horses in any way I was just walking past their stables quietly. These 2 horses did nt just do this to me it was recurring with not only children but adults as well.


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## LBertie Wooster (3 June 2011)

I have a TB which is scared s***less of schooling/ lunging whips this I believe is beacause he has been beaten at somepoint in the past... 
He launched himself at my mums cob this morning when fetching in,bit him very hard and went to launch again, to which said cob had dashed backwards in such alarm, TB then reared several times in my FACE to which i was almost landed on, he got a vry shard wack on the neck with end on leadrope several times.
TB will prance around on roads and riding forward will usually stop but odd occasions this wont help to the point where he decided he was going to jump infront of an oncoming car, this he got smacked V hard. IMO, when i smack him when he wont come off leg or being little sod and doing his prancing, I will pat him afterwords to let him know he has done what I ask.
Said Cob wwill take the piss out of anyone who lets him get away with things more than twice, so he has been wolloped once to be put back in box as friend put it...
Both our horses have full trust and confidence in me, mum, and v good friend who is v knowledgeable. For those who say they would NEVER hit a horse has obvs not had a 17.2 chunky fully fit EX eventer doing vertical bucks at point of going over or been very nearly hit by car due to horse broncing across road.

Every horse is diffrent and needs handling/ treating diffrently. Each to their own.


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## FanyDuChamp (3 June 2011)

Evelyn said:



			Because when it suits they would be the first to abuse your trust - you see this everyday when a novice rider gets their first horse, or the cunning riding school pony susses out the rider is a little nervous.

Don't EVER underestimate the power and reactions of a horse or pony.
		
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I don't but trust is a 2 way street, he trusts us to take care of him, protect him from hurt. In return we expect respect. We get it. He is a horse that will happily take the p*ss if allowed, but is happiest with strong, firm but loving leadership.

 I never said my horse was not told off, he is. We had our mare tied up outside our gelding's stable he lunged at her, my daughter drove him back with her voice, he does not like being driven off, so refrains from the behaviour that separates him from us, he has never done it again. There is more than one way to skin a cat, violence is not the only way to go. Like my daughter always says, you have to make a horse want to be with you, to trust you then when their behaviour is unacceptable you let them know, through body language not violence. The punishment is temporary banishment ( only a couple of minutes).

When we bought him he was so aggressive professional grooms were afraid of him.It took 4 people to lead him down the yard and it was a very brave person who entered his stable. He was aggressive because he refused to be beaten any longer, he had basically said enough is enough.

So what do we do? Continue hitting him, he is 17-2hh, was incredibly fit ( had been a comp. horse) and was quite happy to fight his corner. He used to strike incredibly fast with teeth, rear, spin and try to double barrel you. 

We could have gone in with whips, beaten him but others had tried that and not succeeded. So we changed our way of dealing with him, he now knows where the boundaries are and what is unacceptable, it has taken over 3 years but he is a different horse. Happier, calmer and considerably less aggressive. He'll never be truly trustworthy because he has the memories and will still flinch when someone new moves too close or too quickly near him. But the difference is incredible, and all without violence.

FDC


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## AndySpooner (3 June 2011)

Cindygirl said:



			Hi
Dont reply on this site very often but just had to in this topic.
I have only truly hit one horse in my life and having backed young horses for more than 25 years I think that is not to bad. It was a heavy weight 6 year old cob that I had backed 5 weeks previously & all was going well but I had a different handler 1 day while I mounted and this mare decided to try & kill the man who was holding her after I got on, que me reversing my hold on my whip & really cracking the horse but only once & it never done anything like it again. Actually went on to be a wonderful RDA horse.
For all those people thaat say they are lucky enough not to belive horses wont attack can I just ask why I have spgnificant scaring on my face & right shoulder after being attacked by two very well treated ownwd from foal horses that decided to try to treat me like a non dominant herd member by grabing me by any available surface, pulling me down & trying to stamp on me. This happened when I was 8 & 10 and wasnt annoying the horses in any way I was just walking past their stables quietly. These 2 horses did nt just do this to me it was recurring with not only children but adults as well.
		
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I really don't think anyone honestly believes that there aren't times when horses try it on, horses attacking people though is not very common, not to say it doesn't or won't happen.

If a horse is really out to get you, I think that you've probably had it, if you think a stick or whip or whatever has saved you, the horse probably wasn't that serious. Apart from the size, horses react about 10 times faster than people do and so it's all over before you know whats happened.

A lot of stuff horses do people mis read, I had a hunter once who used to pick walkers up by the shoulder and give them a shake, people said he was dangerous, all he was doing was looking for sandwich's, a walker had fed him one once, once that s all it took.

If you think hitting a horse trains it, it doesn't, they just don't think like that.

A lot of people are just a little bit nervous or frightened around horses, if a stick helps you deal with that, ok. Others act the real tough guy round them, lots of bravado, and micro management, you know the one who holds the lead rope by the clip. Others have whips because thats how they were taught as a child, so it must be right.

I don't use a whip or crop, my choice, my horses.


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## FanyDuChamp (3 June 2011)

ngrace said:



			This has become very 'holier than thou'..

And Fany Du Champ ''Remember they are powerful, quick and strong animals they choose not to hurt you, how can you abuse that trust?''
Not sure if you missed previous posts, but I think thats the point alot of people have made, the horse has chosen to hurt them.
		
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What I was trying to say, and maybe did not express myself well enough, is that  I feel that when you resort to hitting you are getting into a p*ssing contest you simply cannot win. They are bigger , stronger and faster than humans, so imho psychology has to be used rather than force. 

I certainly do not want to appear "holier than thou" I don't pretend to know everything, I certainly don't. But I know what has worked with my formerly extremely aggressive horse, and was speaking from that standpoint.

FDC


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## FanyDuChamp (3 June 2011)

The_Hooligan said:



			I used to think you talked sense, but after that statement I realise how wrong i was. oh deary deary me. how sad.
		
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Well each to their own opinion.
FDC


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## LBertie Wooster (3 June 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			Never.
		
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Not even if it stuck 2 fingers up at you and ment to deck you/ kill you? you would never see a reason to maybe put your mark down if you let it get away with something and it had taken an inch everytime?


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## Dobiegirl (3 June 2011)

After reading this thread Ive realised there are people who live in the real world and people who live in fluffy bunny land.

My last horse was never smacked if he was naughty you just had to blow a rasberry at him and he was mortified. His previous owner had done this with him since a weaned foal  and it worked for him. In the past Ive worked with some nasty horses one who was a very successful show hunter. In one season he had six grooms who had all left because he terrified them. I was groom no 7 and he certainly did his upmost to get me when ever he could. He would double barrel you if he could or squash you against the wall, you certainly needed your wits about you. At shows after his class if he was going in the working hunters I needed to get in the back of the lorry with him to change his studs. The minute you stepped in with him he would start and so a good whack from me kept him quiet enough for me to do my job. He was a TB and his sire was nasty and his grandsire kicked his stable door in the night before he won the Derby. But with a lot of these horses its not genetic its people who prat around them and allow them to get away with murder. They get passed on and the process repeats itself.


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## AndySpooner (3 June 2011)

Dobiegirl said:



			After reading this thread Ive realised there are people who live in the real world and people who live in fluffy bunny land.

My last horse was never smacked if he was naughty you just had to blow a rasberry at him and he was mortified. His previous owner had done this with him since a weaned foal  and it worked for him. In the past Ive worked with some nasty horses one who was a very successful show hunter. In one season he had six grooms who had all left because he terrified them. I was groom no 7 and he certainly did his upmost to get me when ever he could. He would double barrel you if he could or squash you against the wall, you certainly needed your wits about you. At shows after his class if he was going in the working hunters I needed to get in the back of the lorry with him to change his studs. The minute you stepped in with him he would start and so a good whack from me kept him quiet enough for me to do my job. He was a TB and his sire was nasty and his grandsire kicked his stable door in the night before he won the Derby. But with a lot of these horses its not genetic its people who prat around them and allow them to get away with murder. They get passed on and the process repeats itself.
		
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Sounds like this horse certainly thought you were a 'fluffy bunny' because he had very little respect for you despite the 'good whack's' he kept getting. But, you are right it is the people who prat around with them that allow this sort of behaviour.


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## AndySpooner (3 June 2011)

LBertie Wooster said:



			Not even if it stuck 2 fingers up at you and ment to deck you/ kill you? you would never see a reason to maybe put your mark down if you let it get away with something and it had taken an inch everytime?
		
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No, there are more intelligent ways to deal with this sort of stuff, and once you've sorted it properly, it doesn't keep happening.


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## LBertie Wooster (3 June 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			No, there are more intelligent ways to deal with this sort of stuff, and once you've sorted it properly, it doesn't keep happening.
		
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i do totally agree with you on this. I do't think it helps that where I came from Said Cob was little s**t and people where rather whips solve problems. I will say this, since I'ne had said TB I have completly changed my way of thinking.
Well like I've said, each to their own. Everybody has their own ways of dealing with things and I believe it also dpends on how you have ben taught to deal with problems...


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## Enfys (3 June 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			Mine is a QH and as sharpe as a razer, She can gallop from a standing start and stop from a gallop.
		
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_All_ horses can do that regardless of their breed, just watch a group at play in a field


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## shortstuff99 (3 June 2011)

I am not a bunny hugger but neither am I on the side of smacking horses. I don't claim to have a vast knowledge of horse psychology but I do have knowledge of general herd behaviour (I am a Zoologist). I find that moving a horse out of your personal space can be the best form of showing a horse dominance. My mare is a very powerful cob she is the alpha mare of her herd, her way of trying to dominate you is to get in your personal space. This tends to be what horses react to in the field. The dominate horse can get in the subordinates personal space and move them this shows dominence. If the horse doesn't move fast enough then more sharper methods are used. 

What I'm trying to say is that horse will move into your space whil grooming etc and subtly alter your position, this is them proving dominence over you. I find if you stand your ground and 'push' (not smack) the horse out of your space they soon realise they can't dominate you and stop pushing. I feel that alot of aggression and naughtiness stems from this.

However if it is a life threatening situation I would react in whatever way my adrenaline tells me! But that is just my oppinnion and everyone is entitled to their own


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## AndySpooner (3 June 2011)

Enfys said:



_All_ horses can do that regardless of their breed, just watch a group at play in a field 

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I'm talking about riding her,lol.


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## Enfys (3 June 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			I'm talking about riding her,lol.[/QUOTE

Cowboy stuff eh?

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## Clippy (3 June 2011)

I think it's foolish to declare you'd NEVER hit a horse.

Ok, horses are generally a non violent animal with only the odd exception, but what about incidents, say, where you're bringing one in from the field and another tries to barge past, or other situations which arise and a sharp slap can prevent an accident


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## AndySpooner (3 June 2011)

Clippy said:



			I think it's foolish to declare you'd NEVER hit a horse.

Ok, horses are generally a non violent animal with only the odd exception, but what about incidents, say, where you're bringing one in from the field and another tries to barge past, or other situations which arise and a sharp slap can prevent an accident
		
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Oh really, just have to take your word on that, lol.


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## StrawberryFish (3 June 2011)

When on my old warmblood with him on 2 legs reversing towards a ditch with me on board. We got a sharp smack on the bum and as much as I don't like walloping horses, in that situation it was to save us from VERY serious injuries, it wasn't a conscious decision but an instinctive 'oh ****, we're gonna die, stop ****ing rearing and GO FORWARDS'


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## c2b (3 June 2011)

I work on the never say never principle lol

In 6 years I have only smacked my mare once. Similar scenario to StrawberryFish. Walking alongside a river. Mare starts backing up and not listening to my leg. A swift smack on her bum to send her forwards before we both ended up in the river. I would do so again in similar circumstances if it was needed. 

When I got her I couldn't even let her see a crop or she would go mental. Just lifting my hand off the reins to thank passing cars sent her in a frenzy. Now I can carry a crop and always do so but use it for wafting flies off more than anything.


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## annaellie (3 June 2011)

Yes I have in the past and would do if needed. I was bought at 14 a 15.2 tb mare who bronced the rider off but rather than stopping or running away continued to bronc and had no care for the rider underneath. This went in for roughly 18 months I was a bag of nerves and was on the verge of giving up I was very lucky I was never badly hurt.
I was riding her in the jumping paddock she was going lovely then all of a sudden I felt her back arch and bam off she went. I fell and was winded I thought I was flippen dying 
When I got my breath back I seen red and lost it with her and give her some hard cracks that did leave marks on her 
I felt so guilty but she never done it again to me and from that day on was amazing  
When I went to college she came with me I explained to them what she used to do yard m was quite adamant her higher students would manage her. She lasted a week before doing toba girl what she used to do to me and damaging her back and fracturing her pelvis  I had her till she was pts and never had a problem again

Another horse I had who was a 17.2 and quite frankly dangerous when bought I only hit him once and that made himm worse he took a long patience route and was put in place by your voice but hit him and he would attack you

I think it depends on the horse and situation but I would never rule it out if it's for saftey off myself, horse or others around


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## tallyho! (3 June 2011)

Yes Enfys, I would and I do.


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## hollyandivy123 (3 June 2011)

ok i bit a horse once...............he was mine and was going through a young biting phase, he conected with my arm, (ended up with a mouth shaped haematoma, to give an indication of the force) i turned round, got hold of his nose and bit him on the nostril. he jumped back with a look of what humans don't do that and he never bit anyone or me again, it didn't make he head shy or anything. the boundries were re-set. by the way he was molting at the time a trust me a mouth full of hair is yuk.

i think every situation is different, yes i have hit a horse, but only when the situation needed it, shying into the road, reversing into cars. i don't believe in thrashing a horse, but that is just my own point of view.


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## SarahWeston (3 June 2011)

What worries me here is how many people go from 0 - 60 in a milisecond. From shouting to hitting. Neither of these things make sense to horses. The first doesn't tell them what they ought to be doing (they just don't understand words) and the second doesn't tell them what they ought to have done.


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## cptrayes (3 June 2011)

I'm still wondering why the no-whip-in-my-yard people think it is better, from some of these posts, to take years to get a horse trained "properly" than it is to ever use a whip.

With a horse that came to me scared of whips, I would  carry a whip everywhere with me. Whenever I handled that horse I would have a whip there, with food, with strokes, with every good thing that happens to it. Or as close as you could get the whip at the time. It would eat and drink from a bucket with a whip in it. Quite quickly it would reach a stage where I could touch the horse with the whip and then stroke it all over with it. Eventually I would stand with it and pull the whip out sharply and wave it at it quite violently without touching it, giving it food or reassurance each time until it stopped reacting excessively. Leaving a horse so that it quivers and jumps when it sees a whip near it is completely unacceptable, to me. 


You have no idea what will happen to you in the future, or where your horse might end up. It is not fair to throw whips out of your yard, and leave the horse scared of them. It is only fair to habituate it to them. 

If I could cure, as I did,  a horse of a lifelong fear of bridges, and whips, by hitting it once and riding it over a bridge, can anyone tell me the sense in taking even half an hour to persuade that horse in a "nicer" fashion to go over that bridge and remain scared of whips? 29 and a 1/2 more minutes of unhappiness for the horse, surely?

Andy if you think an Arab and a Quarter Horse give you the experience to tell all of us that we are wrong to ever use a whip, that's your prerogative, but I suspect you inadvertently caused more than just me to spit our cornflakes out with laughter.


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## MrsElle (3 June 2011)

I have been reading this thread open mouthed.

I am a total novice, had lessons as a child and decided to get a horse three years ago.  Two years ago I got Blue, then aged 20 months as I am a wimp and wanted something un-spoiled and knew the history of. I knew nothing about having a youngster.  Blue was bargy, in your face and stubborn.  His worst thing was walking straight through you, pushing out of the way which did put me and other half on our backsides several times.  Blue thought he was the herd leader and needed to be shown otherwise.  Shouts and the odd slap would usually do it but occasionaly he has needed a good wallop when he has put me at risk, his favourite trick used to be to pin me against the fence and me saying 'nice pony, please move away as you are crushing me' wasn't going to make him move!  I took a crop into the field with me for a while and if he got too close he got a slap accross the chest - not too hard but enough to make him stop and think.  That worked wonders, although he is quite a dominate pony and he does need reminding again from time to time.

I have now got a little welsh filly who was about 18 months when I got her.  She is an angel, never steps out of line, very respectful of space and is so easy in every way - the total opposite of Blue!

Perhaps those people who have never walloped a horse have been extremely lucky and had horses like my lovely Lola - I challenge those people to come and deal with Blue when he is 'on one' with words.  I will have the ambulance service on standby!


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## LaurenBay (3 June 2011)

I've once given my share Horse a big wallop!

She's 15 and knows what back means and usually is good to handle. One day I was turning her out, her friends kept calling for her and she started to get very prancy and strong, we then had to go past a tree and a gap in the bush were she could clearly see her friends, However you can not get into the field this way and have to walk past it. She had other ideas and dragged me through the gap and into the tree, I was pinned between her and the tree. I asked her to back up but she wouldnt move away, she was still barging into me and I could hear my ribs cracking. So I walloped her on the head she jumped back then I gave her another wallop on the shoulder. That was the first and last time she has ever done that!!

I felt very bad as she wasn't my Horse to discipline, so I called the owner and told her what happened. She said she would've done the same thing and was glad I had hit her otherwise I could've seriously hurt myself.


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## Flame_ (3 June 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			A lot of stuff horses do people mis read, I had a hunter once who used to pick walkers up by the shoulder and give them a shake, people said he was dangerous, all he was doing was looking for sandwich's, a walker had fed him one once, once that s all it took.
		
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Until I read this, I quite admired your stance, even though I considered it a bit narrow-minded, but WTF? If you want to allow any bad behavior from your horse towards you to go unpunished that is entirely up to you, but if you are going to take your horse near other people and it does stuff like picking them up  you are a damn sight worse than fluffy mate, you are dangerous.  

Going back to my horse. Even if i decided that he would come to terms with gates in his own time through patience, understanding and repetition, and I was prepared to overlook and accept my own, and his, near death experiences in the mean time, *car drivers have a right not to have horses leaping out in front of them*. I think you have a responsibility to get your horse in line one way or another if its behavior affects other people.


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## FanyDuChamp (3 June 2011)

My point was that, in my experience, violence can escalate extremely quickly and can leave you in a situation which you are no longer in control of. My lad is no small pony, he is 17-2hh of attitude. He needed boundaries fixing but hitting was not the way to deal with him, it had been tried and had made him even more aggressive. Most horses will react to being smacked by moving away, but some won't. Some will attack, my lad was one of those. So new solutions had to be found or someone was going to get hurt.

So I think, as ever , maybe it is better to suit what you do to the horse in front of you. Fany got a light tap on the chest when she used to barge, that was fine it worked for her.So maybe I was hasty to say never, rather I should have said never on my lad. 

FDC


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## Fellewell (3 June 2011)

cptrayes said:



			I'm still wondering why the no-whip-in-my-yard people think it is better, from some of these posts, to take years to get a horse trained "properly" than it is to ever use a whip.

With a horse that came to me scared of whips, I would  carry a whip everywhere with me. Whenever I handled that horse I would have a whip there, with food, with strokes, with every good thing that happens to it. Or as close as you could get the whip at the time. It would eat and drink from a bucket with a whip in it. Quite quickly it would reach a stage where I could touch the horse with the whip and then stroke it all over with it. Eventually I would stand with it and pull the whip out sharply and wave it at it quite violently without touching it, giving it food or reassurance each time until it stopped reacting excessively. Leaving a horse so that it quivers and jumps when it sees a whip near it is completely unacceptable, to me. 
You have no idea what will happen to you in the future, or where your horse might end up. It is not fair to throw whips out of your yard, and leave the horse scared of them. It is only fair to habituate it to them. 

If I could cure, as I did,  a horse of a lifelong fear of bridges, and whips, by hitting it once and riding it over a bridge, can anyone tell me the sense in taking even half an hour to persuade that horse in a "nicer" fashion to go over that bridge and remain scared of whips? 29 and a 1/2 more minutes of unhappiness for the horse, surely?

Andy if you think an Arab and a Quarter Horse give you the experience to tell all of us that we are wrong to ever use a whip, that's your prerogative, but I suspect you inadvertently caused more than just me to spit our cornflakes out with laughter.
		
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 I suspect if Andy rushed up to his horse yelling and brandishing a whip it would not bat an eyelid because it's not used to its handler randomly inflicting pain on it. Horses become whip-shy because they are often punished for something they haven't done or understood.


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## team barney (3 June 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			No, no whips or crops at our place.
		
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Just carrot sticks and ropes????


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## Flicker (3 June 2011)

Only in an emergency to avert danger to life or potential injury.  And only if I was in the position to evaluate whether it would achieve the results required, as opposed to making things worse.
I would never, ever administer the kind of wallop you describe in a disciplinary capacity.


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## Spudlet (3 June 2011)

I have to say, that if I was walking across a field and a horse tried to pick me up and shake me, I would indeed give it a good wallop whether it was looking for sandwiches or not! And then I'd go and find the owner and give them a thorough ear bending! People should be able to go for a walk without being picked up by a random horse, my goodness me!


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## jenbleep (3 June 2011)

Flame_ said:



			Until I read this, I quite admired your stance, even though I considered it a bit narrow-minded, but WTF? If you want to allow any bad behavior from your horse towards you to go unpunished that is entirely up to you, but if you are going to take your horse near other people and it does stuff like picking them up  you are a damn sight worse than fluffy mate, you are dangerous.
		
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Agree with this?!?!?!??! Blimey some people come out with utter tosh. I'm sorry my horse has just picked you up by the shoulder but he was only looking for sandwiches?! 

Jeez


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## Tickles (3 June 2011)

Only if horse was an immediate danger to itself, another animal or person AND if I believed that hitting it would make it move to safety. I.e. never for punishment only as a (very strong) command.

I'm smaller and weaker than a horse (and most ponies!) so need to be confident I have non-physical means to exerting influence.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (3 June 2011)

blimey...............mine get pasted with carefree abandon................

i dont care why they want to kick/bite barge....whether its aimed me, another horse, or an insect etc, its bloody dangerous and i wont stand for it whilst im in their space. they HAVE to learn to stop and think first because they are too big and strong not to.

without fail, all the spoil little swines i get in to sort out, are like that because people didnt tell them off, when they should have.

im too busy to faff and fanny around trying to analyze the little darlings wants and demands, they just learn manners and dont forget them.

dont get me wrong, im not cruel or stupid, if they are genuinely scared and eg swing away and shove me-fine, they were scared, but if they swing away for any other reason and shove me..............a *******ing they will get.

i went to a show with someone a few weeks ago and her horse was a menace, grabbing me, chewing me, shoving me, spinning all over the shop, pulling back, dragging forward,scraping/pawing, constantly in your face for food......................thank god mine have the manners to stand and wait politely for me to be ready for them,because i wont stand for that sort of impatient attention seeking either.

i hasten to add mine are not whip or people shy, love attention and are happy to see me, but they know who the boss is and they know not to push her.....................


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## team barney (3 June 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			If a horse is really out to get you, I think that you've probably had it, if you think a stick or whip or whatever has saved you, the horse probably wasn't that serious. Apart from the size, horses react about 10 times faster than people do and so it's all over before you know whats happened.
		
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I don't think a whip has saved me, I was lucky enough to be able to get my self away very sharply.  However if I had be trapped I would have used anything at hand to defend my self, regardless of the futility of it.

I have never belted a horse and would never hit a horse for anything less than mortal danger or in protection of my family.

I don't carry a whip when I ride, school or handle any of my horses. I have never had cause to doubt mine but certain horses are completely untrustworthy.  

They are as I said previously very few horses like this.  I know the difference between a horse bitting/kicking due to fear from past abuses and a horse that is a genuine danger.  I have had dealings with only one such horse and would not wish it on anyone else and genuinely hope I never encounter another like it.


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## monkeybum13 (3 June 2011)

cptrayes said:



			I have seen more horses spoiled by not being hit when they needed it than by being hit when they did not deserve it. A horse hit when it does not deserve it forgives you. A horse uncorrected in a bad habit often gets worse until it hurts someone.
		
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I agree with all your post but this bit especially. I know a 17.3 that is spoilt rotten, allowed to do what the hell he wants and has injured his owner several times putting her in hospital. 
If I ever handle him (which I try to keep to a minimum) he behaves because I'm bossy with him and he's not allowed to step out of line. Would I ever use a whip on him if he was aggressive? Gosh yes, without hesitation.


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## premiersporthorsesuk (3 June 2011)

Quite a delicate subject in some people's eyes but I always say "a beating is given when a beating is due". I don't agree with horse cruelty or people smacking them for no reason really annoys me but I don't hesitate to let them know when they're in the wrong. This does not mean I do not care for them or love them any less. My outlook is to always make things black and white. When they're naughty they get what punishment is needed, whether it be a "wallop" or a sharp smack and a shout. When they're good they are praised with pats, kisses, cuddles, rubs and lots of "good boys/girls!" so they know what's right and what's wrong. I only think a "wallop" is a bad thing when the horse doesn't understand why he is getting it, or it was given for something that really didn't need it. They are big, powerful animals so need to know what is acceptable and what isn't.


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## Amaranta (3 June 2011)

I cannot remember the last time I hit one of my horses tbh, I agree that body language is key most of the time BUT and it is a big but, I have no qualms about giving a short sharp reminder should I have to.

Those posters who declare they would never hit a horse are obviously not used to dealing with horses other than their own, and as for the person who stated that horses don't hit each other, well she has never watched a herd and how they behave.  Watch a lead mare with a bolshy youngster for instance, she will give cues and if they are not taken up it can become quite violent, this is how horses learn and anyone who says differently is not as experienced as they would like us to believe. 

There is a lot of holier than though going on in this post, with certain posters showing their ignorance of horse psychology, yes we should listen to our horses but sometimes we have to make them listen too.


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## Lady La La (3 June 2011)

Spudlet said:



			I have to say, that if I was walking across a field and a horse tried to pick me up and shake me, I would indeed give it a good wallop whether it was looking for sandwiches or not! And then I'd go and find the owner and give them a thorough ear bending! People should be able to go for a walk without being picked up by a random horse, my goodness me!
		
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This. That horse has probably suffered more pain from random beatings bestowed on it by petrified walkers than that of a quick flick with a whip as a reprimand...


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## bensababy (3 June 2011)

I have and i would again, my 2 year old (who is now 18) grabbed my thumb and started shaking it like a rag doll.. what would you have done? Yep - he got a good whallop round the face - it was either that or lose my thumb and i know what i would prefer.

Is he head shy? No
Did he ever suffer from it? no
Did i? yes a nasty scar and 12 stitches later and a numb feeling in my thumb

In that kind of situation i choose myself.

And as for the comment previously about horses not hitting each other (hitting made me chuckle - can imagine a horse with boxing gloves on), sorry but the award for the most ridiculous comment goes to you .. how do you think they sort out the pecking orders? - and the answer is not in a boxing ring.


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## talkinghorse (3 June 2011)

cptrayes said:



			&#8230; Rubbish&#8230;
		
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Would you do the same with naughty children? Would you treat a dog this way? Why do it to a horse, when there are far more effective ways? Is is because they can't scream in pain? Or is it because you are a bully and know no better?


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## Fellewell (3 June 2011)

I think we muddy the waters when we draw comparisons between horse interaction and their behaviour towards us.
I have one here who did exactly as the Appy did but the yearling didn't survive. His owner was heartbroken.
That horse is a saint around people, on the ground and under saddle. I watched him in the field this morning, he flicked his ears back and a horse 15 feet away trotted off. I've put his behaviour to the test since he's been here but he's as good as gold. Go figure


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## aimeetb (3 June 2011)

team barney said:



			The only circumstances in which I would hit a horse is if said horse was in serious attack mode (believe me it happens) and I had no other escape.
		
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This! Mistakes, bad behaviour, misunderstanding etc etc I try to always keep calm and think of another way to explain and deal with it (not always easy as that) but when they completely overstep the mark like the above it is simply dangerous not to let them know it is unacceptable. x


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## Baggybreeches (3 June 2011)

SarahWeston said:



			What worries me here is how many people go from 0 - 60 in a milisecond. From shouting to hitting. Neither of these things make sense to horses. The first doesn't tell them what they ought to be doing (they just don't understand words) and the second doesn't tell them what they ought to have done.
		
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I would shout at mine even less than I hit them, again because my big horse is very sensitive to shouting (he gets stressed if my neighbours kids cry in the garden!), I would usually use a sharp smack instead, as that will break the behaviour or interrupt the intended behaviour. But again not appropriate every time, ever been leading a really nervous youngster who spooks at something and stands on your foot? That is not an appropriate time for a smack (even if it might be instinctive), instead you must be calm and comforting. (And then go round the corner and scream and swear!)


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## ngrace (3 June 2011)

talkinghorse said:



			Would you do the same with naughty children? Would you treat a dog this way? Why do it to a horse, when there are far more effective ways? Is is because they can't scream in pain? Or is it because you are a bully and know no better?
		
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Well I for one would hit a dog if it was being aggressive which has happened to me before and its not pretty.  Never had a kid violently attack me, but to be honest if someone did I would probably try to pin them to the floor till they calm down but you cant do that with horses.
You obviously havent heard a horse 'scream' when being pushed around in the field, they can.
And play nicely, dont call people bullys.

ETA - I have dogs, horses and a little brother. Never needed to hit dogs or brother (lol) but had a horse try to take a chunk out of dad when he was just standing next to her and she got a smack and deserved it. 
Oh and mum smacked me once for trying to run over the road, no mentally scarring so far, and I havent done it since.


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## turkana (3 June 2011)

I'm not a hitter & I never carry a whip but a few years ago I was mucking out a terratorial mare & she came at me, I was cornered so I wacked her across the chest with a shovel.
It's not something I've done before or since but that mare really meant it, so I have no regrets about defending myself.


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## Firewell (3 June 2011)

Wow I don't think I really hit my horse thinking about it. I'm not soft but I mainly use a whip as a tickle to back my leg up (if he drops behind the leg). I smack him on the neck with my hand if he tries to nibble but I more just push his face away.
Nope I really don't use my whip much! I'm quite impressed with that lol.
With my old horse he only got a hard smack if he stopped at a fence and we were on the right stride but he was a professional showjumper and knew better, he just tried his luck sometimes.

I'd smack a dog if it really needed it but they are predators like us and they react differently to horses.


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## aimeetb (3 June 2011)

KateB999 said:



			Never.  You don't see horses hitting one another, so why would it mean anything to them if we do it.
		
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Are you serious??  

Have you never seen a mare nip a youngster that is out of line?

xx


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## SplashofSoy (3 June 2011)

I would give a horse a wallop with a crop if the circumstances meant this was the only option, usually to prevent harm coming to myself, the horse or a third party.  I have had to do this.

I would do the same to a dog but fortunately my dog has never put me in this situation.  I once at a show where there was terrier racing two dogs locked teeth onto each other, it was an emergency situation and a guy grabbed the agressor dog and hit it once very hard on the head.  It immediately let go.  Not pleasant and far from the ideal way of dealing with things but the right thing to do at the time.

I think there is a huge difference between one hit/smack/wallop whatever you want to call it in a specific situation to someone who beats and abuses animals/children etc.  The former can be necessary and very effective the latter can never be tolerated and is just wrong in all circumstances.


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## Tnavas (3 June 2011)

talkinghorse said:



			Would you do the same with naughty children? Would you treat a dog this way? Why do it to a horse, when there are far more effective ways? Is is because they can't scream in pain? Or is it because you are a bully and know no better?
		
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Naughty children have not been disciplined sensibly since the mid 70's hence why we now have so many violent, disruptive, rude, dishonest bullies of kids and adults.

A smack never hurt anyone - it was a very sharp reminder that you had been told to either do or not do something. I really feel so sorry for teachers nowadays when they have to deal with the horrible offspring of people who say smacking your child is bullying - instead these children bully us by their obnoxious behavior.

You will NEVER stop the people who go overboard with laws against smacking. You just take away a parents freedom of choice as to how they wish to raise their children.

And yes I would hit a dog - I hit mine for growling at my nephew. He didn't ever do it again. I treat my animals in the same way they treat each other. I once had a very dominant spaniel bitch that challenged me one day, I pinned her down on the floor by her muzzle until she gave in - it took a while but from then on she did as I asked when asked. It is just the same way as an alpha dog would have treated her. I can growl at Serenity and she will generally behave herself but there have been times when she has carried on being a pain - usually by squashing me - then she gets a smack and knows I mean it. Putting her on the truck often involves a smack with the whip on the bum when she decides to plant herself. 

I've worked with hundreds of horse - all have different disciplining requirements. Personality, the way they have been handled before you get them. The food they are on - the invironment they are in. All these things affect how a horse behaves.


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## irishcob (3 June 2011)

The_Hooligan said:



			Not remotely unlucky thank you, my horse is unbelievable for his size and age and when out competing nit much can beat him, ALL horses have the capacity to bite/kick/buck/rear/spook for no given reason and when the do they should be reprimanded as such. pehaps you just don't do anything with your which is why they don't react, after 23 years with horses and having some huge sucsesses and some difficult time i shall stick to what i know.
		
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I've been trying to refrain from taking part in this debate, as with such an emotive subject it can get quite heated.  I agree that I would hit a horse if it was endangering the lives of others, but apart from that, no, I think there is always a better way.  

However it is astonishing to me that people think you cannot be successful or competitive without hitting your horses along the way.  Just to let you know that IHK has infact been a Champion Showjumper and Champion Lady Race Jockey in her career.  She has also helped many hundreds of confused or angry horses who nap/bite/buck/rear etc, due to mishandling (whether deliberate or through ignorance) and pain inflicted upon them.  

One of her most impressive achievements for me was to travel to Namibia, and catch 2 wild stallions on the desert, and managing to handle and ride them within 7 days.  These horses are tough animals, who will fight for survival, and had she tried to use a whip on either of them to demand respect, I doubt she'd be alive today.

Anyway, I'm going off track.  So no, you don't have to hit a horse ever to be successful.


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## SassieSoz (3 June 2011)

Yes I would and yes I have.  My now 10 year old ID was terrible between 3 and 4, pushing every available boundary, biting me at every opportunity and lobbing cow-kicks whenever possible. One occasion of bringing him across the field he went to bite me for the 'nth time and by a compete fluke I managed to get first bite on his nostril.  Don't know who was more surprised - needless to say it stopped him trying it for quite a few weeks.  There are times when instant 'horse-like" retaliation/telling off is required - as youngsters their peers dole it out when boundaries are overstepped.  I don't however condone needless abuse as it doesn't get either of you anywhere.  My once bolshy ID is now lovely to handle but, boy, it was hard getting the boundaries established!!


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## amandap (3 June 2011)

Evelyn said:



			Because when it suits they would be the first to abuse your trust - you see this everyday when a novice rider gets their first horse, or the cunning riding school pony susses out the rider is a little nervous.

Don't EVER underestimate the power and reactions of a horse or pony.
		
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I've just picked this post out at random to illustarte a point.

Erm, so the horse is wrong for 'being cunning' or as I look at it learning that this person doesn't give clear, fair, guidance that makes sense to the horse. If a person is a novice then surely they don't know how to be with horses yet? Or are horses able to read human minds now?

I'm sorry but threads like this are so predictable... if  'it' (the horse) doesn't do what you want or is afraid of something and doesn't want to go forward or wants to run etc. etc. just belt it one and it will know what you want or 'do as it's told'! Yikes. Erm, perhaps the pain from the whip or whatever made it stop and wonder where to run next just long enough for you to get 'it' to do what you want that time... result. Or is it?
What happens next time and the next and the next... some humans seem to have the same problems over and over again with a string of horses. I suppose this is because the horses are all 'stupid'? 

I may not be an eventer, show jumper, dressage diva or even good rider so just ignore my thinking cos I don't do much. I try to ask myself why my horse is behaving in a way that I think is potentially dangerous or if he/she is afraid or doesn't want to go somewhere. Do I need to look at diet (mineral imbalance for eg.) management (not enough turnout/too much grass, no mates/ trouble at yard etc.) MY TRAINING (the biggie for me) etc. etc.

I've just been skimming through Kelly Mark's book, 'Perfect Partners' and one thing she says to ask is 'how can I get my horse to WANT to do this?'
I don't know about some posters but I wouldn't want to do stuff for someone who just confused me with their moods, erratic training/rules or who regularly hits me. 
I've worked very hard on myself to stay calm and not take behaviours personally so I can see more clearly what is going wrong rather than blame my horses, I'm very far from perfect and certainly don't have the best trained horses in the universe but they seem happy and so am I. 

I'm sure a horse in a solid, trusting and fair relationship will not hold the odd hit against the owner but that's the nature of horses, they are very forgiving and just want to get on with life.


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## SplashofSoy (3 June 2011)

ngrace said:



			Oh and mum smacked me once for trying to run over the road, no mentally scarring so far, and I havent done it since.
		
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Similar thing happened to me, after that a look from my mum was enough, even at the age of 29 that look can still stop me in my tracks!


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## dibbin (3 June 2011)

I would, if the horse put me, itself, or both of us in immediate danger.  Never in anger (although I'm not going to say I never have done it, I'm human and I've lost my temper before, but it's not been often and I've always felt hideous about it afterwards), and NEVER what anyone could call a "beating". And a horse being a t*t but not actually endangering anyone would be firmly handled but not hit, as it rarely achieves anything in those circumstances.


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## Cedars (3 June 2011)

I am assuming you mean a full on hit, not a tickle or an open palmed slap. 

I would hit any horse if our lives were in danger-I.e. The person who posted about a horse leaping in front of a car. My yearling did get an almighty smack, with a whip, when she stopped dead in the middle of a huge main road. Yes, it wasn't nice, but it was that or be hit by a car, probably killing harself, me and the people in the car. I did calm her at the other side of the road and we did a lot of work with traffic afterwards, but at that moment tbh I would have electrocuted her butt had it saved people's lives. 

I totally condone people smacking when riding though-my OH does lose his temper and I
now make him get off and calm down. There is no reason ever to beat a horse for misbehaving in a school. 

Again, though, if a horse was being so dangerous one or both of us were at risk of really serious harm, I would hit in that situation. 

I think tbh it depends on the circumstances but as my general rule, I wouldn't hit unless lives were in danger or serious harm was about to happen. Xx


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## FanyDuChamp (3 June 2011)

amandap said:



			I've just picked this post out at random to illustarte a point.

Erm, so the horse is wrong for 'being cunning' or as I look at it learning that this person doesn't give clear, fair, guidance that makes sense to the horse. If a person is a novice then surely they don't know how to be with horses yet? Or are horses able to read human minds now?

I'm sorry but threads like this are so predictable... if  'it' (the horse) doesn't do what you want or is afraid of something and doesn't want to go forward or wants to run etc. etc. just belt it one and it will know what you want or 'do as it's told'! Yikes. Erm, perhaps the pain from the whip or whatever made it stop and wonder where to run next just long enough for you to get 'it' to do what you want that time... result. Or is it?
What happens next time and the next and the next... some humans seem to have the same problems over and over again with a string of horses. I suppose this is because the horses are all 'stupid'? 

I may not be an eventer, show jumper, dressage diva or even good rider so just ignore my thinking cos I don't do much. I try to ask myself why my horse is behaving in a way that I think is potentially dangerous or if he/she is afraid or doesn't want to go somewhere. Do I need to look at diet (mineral imbalance for eg.) management (not enough turnout/too much grass, no mates/ trouble at yard etc.) MY TRAINING (the biggie for me) etc. etc.

I've just been skimming through Kelly Mark's book, 'Perfect Partners' and one thing she says to ask is 'how can I get my horse to WANT to do this?'
I don't know about some posters but I wouldn't want to do stuff for someone who just confused me with their moods, erratic training/rules or who regularly hits me. 
I've worked very hard on myself to stay calm and not take behaviours personally so I can see more clearly what is going wrong rather than blame my horses, I'm very far from perfect and certainly don't have the best trained horses in the universe but they seem happy and so am I. 

I'm sure a horse in a solid, trusting and fair relationship will not hold the odd hit against the owner but that's the nature of horses, they are very forgiving and just want to get on with life.
		
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I really do wish we had a like button. You've summed up what I have been trying to say.
FDC


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## Spudlet (3 June 2011)

Sometimes I think people lack alternative strategies to hitting a horse. There have been times in the past when I have hit horses, where now I have a greater armoury of alternative solutions through experience. In other situations, I would still hit a horse, maybe in future I will have more tools to use, but we do have to deal with the world as it is, rather than as it ought to be, and if in the world as it is a horse is endangering itself or me or someone else and I can stop it with a smack, then so be it.

Anthropomorphising horses (or other animals) by calling them cunning, evil, etc etc is rarely helpful, I know we all do it in fun (well, most people do anyway) but people do need to remember that their animals are animals, not hairy people and that therefore we need to tailor our reactions accordingly.


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## Fairynuff (3 June 2011)

The_Hooligan said:



			Yes I would/have/will do again, rearing, knapping and kicking all result in a good hiding, Barging does to on some occasions, anyone that says otherwise talks *******s.
		
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^^^^^this^^^^^ but not if horse is re acting due to fear (although a whack can get his attention back on the handler.)


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## Wolfie (3 June 2011)

talkinghorse said:



			Would you do the same with naughty children? Would you treat a dog this way? Why do it to a horse, when there are far more effective ways? Is is because they can't scream in pain? Or is it because you are a bully and know no better?
		
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If more children received a slap when they needed it, we would have less ill-mannered curs running around, making life hellish for decent people. I was slapped regularly as a child, frankly it did me no harm, and I feel I benefited from it, as I like to consider myself well mannered. I have taught many students who would have benefited from a similar upbringing!

As for dogs, I would roll a dog if it needed it, or rap it on the end of the nose. My own dogs are very respectful - I speak to be obeyed, and they know where the line is.


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## Missmac (3 June 2011)

I have had to smack Charlie a few times over the last 12 years. He can be a really bolshy sod sometimes, especially when there is food involved!!

But I have only ever once really had to punish him hard. We were out hacking and whilst stopped for a min for one girl to catch her breath (she had to lead her horse back - long story). C lunged at the horse who was being led and I gave him 2/3 hard belts on his rump. Im sure he had his reasons but it was not acceptable behaviour whilst being ridden.

I now have a mare who has been spoilt and she is proving to be a real pain. She is sweet natured but can be bargey and rude when she doesnt get her own way. In the few months I have had her she has improved a lot, but much of this is down to laying down boundaries with a good slap! She recently reared and had a go at napping. Once again this was improved with a well timed smack. She now looks to me for leadership in difficult situations because I have shown her that I am in control and that she can trust my judgement and she no longer has to make all the decisions.

I believe smacking her has affected our relationship. It has strengthened it. She doesnt leave my side when im checking fencing/poo picking/weed pulling and comes cantering up the field when I appear at the gate.


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## Spyda (3 June 2011)

I'd never hit, whip, kick, punch a horse as 'punishment' or to defend myself. Nor would I do it for any other reason (just incase you're left wondering )! There are better ways to manage _any_ situation that may arise between a horse and a human being. 99% of the time confidence, body language, your voice and quick thinking can resolve a tricky situation. I try to avoid the other 1% occurring


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## Rudey (3 June 2011)

Amaranta said:



			Those posters who declare they would never hit a horse are obviously not used to dealing with horses other than their own, and as for the person who stated that horses don't hit each other, well she has never watched a herd and how they behave.  Watch a lead mare with a bolshy youngster for instance, she will give cues and if they are not taken up it can become quite violent, this is how horses learn and anyone who says differently is not as experienced as they would like us to believe.
		
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^^  I have to say I have experience of this with my horses.  My two are in a herd of 8 horses.  My 18 year old bay Sammi, is the herd 'top dog'.  My 3 year old coloured Rox, is very much so at the bottom of the pecking order.  

Rox has an extravagant cheeky personality - always looking for fun _(trouble  )_ and wanting to play.  He goes above his station, he gets reprimanded - pure and simple.  Be it Sammi chasing him, or threatening to kick/bite him, and sometimes (probably most of the time), physically being bitten or kicked.  If it is not Sammi, it would be another member of the herd.  They all put him in his place when he gets too much.

I have had Sammi for 15 years.  When I got him he was very head shy and I had to earn his trust.  When he steps out of line I usually resort to ignoring his behaviour, and he soon gets bored and behaves.  If you shout or smack him, it just escalates the situation and makes matters worse.  Having said that, if he goes over the boundaries too far, he will, and has, had a smack.

Rox on the other hand needs firm handling.  He is at a young and impressionable age where he is constantly testing the boundaries.  I do inhand showing with him and so I am very strict with his behaviour on the ground to enforce good manners.  

I will not allow any sort of misbehaviour with Rox.  He steps out of line he gets told - be it a growl, a 'no', shout, and/or slap on the chest/side.  Someone tit-bitted him at one point and he became extremely bolshy and started to nip.  I do not think it is acceptable to allow a horse to form a biting habit - it is dangerous.  He got a sharp tap on the nose, and he hasn't done it since.  He is not head shy at all, and it did not make him afraid of me - it taught him that nipping was unacceptable behaviour which I wasn't going to put up with. xx


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## Circe (3 June 2011)

Personally i think it depends on the horse and the situation. 
My old appy was hit alot before i got him.   Pretty much everyday, as he was aggressive. His handlers said that you had to match his agresson. I couldnt get them to understand that hitting him didnt work ( or he wouldnt still be trying to attack them at every chance. )
I have never hit him. Ive found that body language, good sensible handling, not being afraid of him have worked for him. I keep the number of people handling him to a minimum and those that do have to attend to him are instructed the best way to approach him. 
On the other hand, my tb went through a bratty teenage phase as a 4/5 yr old, he got bolshy, and very nippy. This ended with him biting my boob ( bloody painful ). Im quite fond of having 2 boobs, not 1 and a bit, so he got a wallop and a " dont you dare do that to me again ". So far so good. He has perfect manners now. 
Kx


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## Spyda (3 June 2011)

Rudey said:



			Rox on the other hand needs firm handling.  He is at a young and impressionable age where he is constantly testing the boundaries.  I do inhand showing with him and so I am very strict with his behaviour on the ground to enforce good manners.  

I will not allow any sort of misbehaviour with Rox.  He steps out of line he gets told - be it a growl, a 'no', shout, and/or slap on the chest/side.  Someone tit-bitted him at one point and he became extremely bolshy and started to nip.  I do not think it is acceptable to allow a horse to form a biting habit - it is dangerous.  He got a sharp tap on the nose, and he hasn't done it since.  He is not head shy at all, and it did not make him afraid of me - it taught him that nipping was unacceptable behaviour which I wasn't going to put up with. xx
		
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Now you see, from what I read of the OP I read it as the above sort of 'education' being excluded from the scenario they were asking about. Of course the above is perfectly acceptable. I answered the post as if it were asking about giving a horse a good 'spanking' for doing something.


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## Theresa_F (3 June 2011)

On the rare occasion - I have had a few attack me in the field (not mine) and resorted to a headcollar hard in the face or backside and once has been enough as they then respected me and did not come at me.  Horses need ot know that this behaviour is totally out of bounds and they will get a harsh response.  Come up nicely and they get a ear scratch and fuss.

I have never had to hit any of mine hard over the years, apart from Stinky.
I have on occasion had to give a hard wallop to is Stinky.  On the odd occasion he will barge and be a thug, I ask once, tell a second time and third time, he will get a hard wallop.  He is a typical gypsy cob - full of cheek and fearless and highly intelligent and he knows not to push boundaries or he will get a thump. 

I never leave a mark and do not beat him up, but sometimes a single hard visit from Mr Sticky is the only thing to get him to stay in line.  Without his boundaries he is a very large cob and could be a real thug with no manners.  He is now 7 and rarely needs a thump - a growl is normally all that is required if he starts being gypo thug horse.

Better the occasional reinforcement of manners than having him not able to be handled by kids etc and on the whole, a joy to own.

I have never had a horse that bit, kicked or was difficult on the ground but I will not tolerate this sort of behaviour and do a lot of manners training with them.


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## Fairynuff (3 June 2011)

Foxhunter49 said:



			So, for those of you that would NEVER hit a horse here is a scenario and I would be interested to know what you would do in the situation.

You take in a big solid warmblood mare for the owner who has had a car accident. The chap who transports the horse to you warns you that it has a reputation for being nasty. Livery is turn out with feed. 
You turn the horse out with two other mares and later go to feed all three in the field. As you get to the gate the new mare charges the gate, ears flat back meaning to get you. There is no way she is going to let you get into that field although you could give her her feed at the gate and clamber over the fence to fed the other two but, what if she leaves her feed to come get you? 

What would you do in this situation? This mare was not just threatening but meaning business and had she made contact she would have done serious damage.
		
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bring her in to feed.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (3 June 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			If a horse is really out to get you, I think that you've probably had it, if you think a stick or whip or whatever has saved you, the horse probably wasn't that serious.
		
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Sorry, but totally disagree with this ^

Maybe you just have been very lucky to never have to deal with some of the serious thugs of the equine world - and hey, thats great - plenty of others on here have also had a pretty stress free time.

Having  had 1st hand experience of a very angry & unable to reason horse/pony, you would find anything to hand to fight back to try to extracate yourself.

I'm not a 'whip-wielding, head slapping type of person, in fact very much the opposite.
However, on SOME occasions WITH some thugs, then yes - remonstration has had to take place, and on rare occasions - defence with anything to hand has also occurred.


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## BonneMaman (3 June 2011)

I dont ever carry a stick when I am on the ground with a horse and find that a good, hard, open handed slap on the underside of the tummy works wonders for serious misdemeanours like biting or kicking. 

If I was happened to have a headcollar in my hand during a bolshy moment between two horses and I was in the middle I would certainly have no hesitation lashing out with said headcollar to save myself bruises!

As for riding - I always ride with a stick these days as my mare is a nappy cow and needs a bloody good wallop (one usually works!) when she decides that she wants to nap, spin, bugger off with me - no I am not going to start up fluffy conversation with her at that point!

Other than that - no I have never "laid into" a horse.


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## team barney (3 June 2011)

I find it amusing that some of the people who claim they would never hit a horse no matter the circumstance (I am talking full on attack mode here, no escape route available) are the same people who would defend/defended Linda Parelli's treatment of Barney and Pat Parelli's treatment of Catwalk, complete and utter hypocrites, go figure!

I would never hit my horses if they were being naughty/awkward or grumpy.  But if I ever found my self faced with a horse in attack mode and I couldn't escape I would defend my self however possible.  As I have said before horses like this are one in a trillion, unfortunately they are in some cases bred from


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## AndySpooner (3 June 2011)

I love this forum, for a horse forum where people are supposed to like or even love horses here people are lining up to brag to one another about hitting their horses with whips and how good it is for the horse. One or two including their dogs and children among their hapless victims.
Why do some people miss the point and focus on completely the wrong thing. No wonder there are so many confused horses out there.
The horse that was looking for sandwiches wasn't dangerous, it was looking for food. People mistook his intentions. When I found out what was going on the horse had to be moved,not punished. Some people rewarded his interest in them by feeding him others were terrified by him, he didn't know which monkey was which. I don't need a piece of anyone's mind over that, and they can take their fleas with them.
People backing their horses into cars all over the place, nothing but a whip to save their life.
And what about the professional horse, he gets a crack because being a professional should know better.

You really couldn't make some of it up, fantastic.


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## Queenbee (3 June 2011)

Evelyn said:



			Naughty children have not been disciplined sensibly since the mid 70's hence why we now have so many violent, disruptive, rude, dishonest bullies of kids and adults.

A smack never hurt anyone - it was a very sharp reminder that you had been told to either do or not do something. I really feel so sorry for teachers nowadays when they have to deal with the horrible offspring of people who say smacking your child is bullying - instead these children bully us by their obnoxious behavior.

You will NEVER stop the people who go overboard with laws against smacking. You just take away a parents freedom of choice as to how they wish to raise their children.

And yes I would hit a dog - I hit mine for growling at my nephew. He didn't ever do it again. I treat my animals in the same way they treat each other. I once had a very dominant spaniel bitch that challenged me one day, I pinned her down on the floor by her muzzle until she gave in - it took a while but from then on she did as I asked when asked. It is just the same way as an alpha dog would have treated her. I can growl at Serenity and she will generally behave herself but there have been times when she has carried on being a pain - usually by squashing me - then she gets a smack and knows I mean it. Putting her on the truck often involves a smack with the whip on the bum when she decides to plant herself. 

I've worked with hundreds of horse - all have different disciplining requirements. Personality, the way they have been handled before you get them. The food they are on - the invironment they are in. All these things affect how a horse behaves.
		
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TBH, I do not have children, I can remember a board rubber being thrown at me as well as a tennis ball and bits of chalk by one teacher, I learnt far far more from the other teachers and had far more respect for them, that being said I don't feel it has done me any harm either.  Most of the children  I know are not smacked by their parents, they are not unruly, and are respectful and fantastic, they have been brought up with restricted privilages, such as no sleepover, early to bed, favourite toys/games taken away and of course that fantastic tactic the naughty step   they seem to understand this far better, and it works a lot more effectively.  BUT...

You try telling a horse ' you're not going to the show tomorrow because you have been naughty' or a dog 'you're not having a walk tonight because you just tried to eat the cat!'  Like they can compute the two with actions and consequences!  A human can reason, animals can't (or can, but on a different level)

I had a bargy mare, she broke her door, and damn near flattened me, the third time she did it, i kneed her in the chest... HARD, she never did it again and I had asserted a boundry in one easy step, trying to take the time to teach her that would have been a nightmare and dangerous.

We have a Jack russel who picks on one of our springers (who is like nana out of Hook)  she is a spoilt brat and yes, I give her a smack when she goes after him and he is just stood their minding his own.

My general techniques are far more gentle, but if the need arises and the behaviour is going to cause a danger then I will be harsh, Sometimes (like when the horse is about to splat you on a car) you don't have time to teach them over weeks!  You just have to act, it is in the best interest of everyone. 

But, horses, humans, dogs they all have individual natures and need individual handling, there is no 'one template for all situations'  My mare ebony couldn't take it if you hit her, but if my younster tries any cr ap, he could deal with a clout if warrented.

1. Never repremand in anger

2. Learn to read the individual (horse, dog or human)

3. Learn to read situations and 

4. react quickly and appropriately to the situation and the individual

5. Accept responsibility, don't just blame your animals

and if you want any more advice on how to be perfect with horses set up an 'ask andyspooner' thread... he never gets anything wrong  as such No 5 doesn't apply to him


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## Rudey (3 June 2011)

Spyda said:



			Now you see, from what I read of the OP I read it as the above sort of 'education' being excluded from the scenario they were asking about. Of course the above is perfectly acceptable. I answered the post as if it were asking about giving a horse a good 'spanking' for doing something.
		
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Ah I see.  I guess that sums up the 'topic' pretty much.... how we as people interpret a _subject._  Starting from whether a smack is ever warranted or not, what you believe is an acceptable force, and what is the definition of a _good ol' wallop....._  As a classic example, you and I read this 'topic' differently.

I understood this thread as a case of 'when' do you hit your horse type thing.  I hit, as in slap, Rox (as you describe very well) as education.  He is the type of youngster that could become a massive handful if he was not reprimanded.  

95% of the time he is very good to handle.  I have people praise me for how well behaved he is for his age.  This was achieved by a hell of a lot of handling and ground work - and definitiely not achieved by not punishing him when he stepped out of line.  

By telling him off he learnt that his bolshy behaviour was not acceptable.  This is reinforced on the other end of the scale by loads of praise when he does behave.  Due to this type of handling, he learnt, and knows the difference between the two.  Discipline and praise go hand in hand if you ask me.

On another note, I will say that a slap/smack/wallop delivered from a human to a horse, is not going to inflict a fraction of force or pain of when a horse in the field bites/kicks/double barrells another horse.  

A 'beating' (as I define as excessive force in a situation) of course, is on a totally different level... xx


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## houdinilover (3 June 2011)

i think it depends on the horse. if its a young one or in training then no u shouldnt but if its a horse that should know better then yes xx


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## Spring Feather (3 June 2011)

I think there is a huge difference between people who have handled 20 or 30 horses over 10 or 20 years and those who have handled 100s and 100s over a lifetime; and those who have handled horses in a typical livery situation and those who work in a professional aspect with horses.  Reading this thread shows peoples experience (or lack of) with all sorts of horses ranges wildly and it's clear which camp each poster is in.

There are no right or wrong ways to deal with individual horses but I find it incredibly worrying that there seem to be so many people with absolutely zilch self-preservation!


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## The Fuzzy Furry (3 June 2011)

Spring Feather said:



			I think there is a huge difference between people who have handled 20 or 30 horses over 10 or 20 years and those who have handled 100s and 100s over a lifetime; and those who have handled horses in a typical livery situation and those who work in a professional aspect with horses.  Reading this thread shows peoples experience (or lack of) with all sorts of horses ranges wildly and it's clear which camp each poster is in.

There are no right or wrong ways to deal with individual horses but I find it incredibly worrying that there seem to be so many people with absolutely zilch self-preservation!
		
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Good observation there ^  SF


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## MagicMelon (3 June 2011)

To be honest I've always been very lucky with my horses, all bar one have always been very well behaved so I've never needed to resort to smacking.  Only one of mine came to me extremely bolshy on the ground - he'd charge through me, tank off on the lead, try to kick / bite etc. you name it and he did it!  BUT with him smacking him and getting annoyed would have made him worse as he was stressy with it.  The only times I ever smacked him was on 2 occassions where he had pinned me against the stable wall!  Rather than get crushed, smacking him to move over was the only way.  One other time was when he properly tried to kick me - he got kicked back for that.  I'll only get annoyed with a horse if he is genuinelly being nasty / dangerous towards me.


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## Tormenta (3 June 2011)

I would and I have. A smack or a dunt from my fist when it has been absolutely necessary. However, I find using my body is often enough of a warning with a sharp voice reprimand. I have had a mare challenge me down in the field and because it happened so quickly I stood my ground, suffice to say the Shetland that was in with her at the time hid behind me........


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## lexiedhb (3 June 2011)

yes i have- the most noted time when I looked down the yard and saw an empty wheelchair, and then heard screaming coming from a known nasty stallions box..... he had dragged her over the door and was proceeding to trample her- took me several wallops to even get him to acknowledge i was there, let alone stop pawing at the disabled lady on the floor.

So to all those who "never hit a horse" how exactly would you have resolved that situation? let him carry on until he got bored, and she was dead?


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## applecart14 (3 June 2011)

Enfys said:



			I don't mean a slap when he's bitten you, or a "hey! buck your ideas up" tickle with a schooling whip, I mean a real "Oi, behave yourself!" type wallop.
Is it ever warranted?
		
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It would depend on the situation and the element of danger involved.  Its a very difficult question to answer with either a yes or a no.

I've never been against smacking horses with a whip, they are big animals and trying to reason with them doesn't always work.  Sometimes they need to be disciplined for the riders/handlers safety as much as their own.

On the other side of the coin I saw a 'friend' lose it totally with her horse and it left a very bitter taste in my mouth.  It was a shameful exhibition of lack of anger management and she literally had to be pulled of the poor beast.  She had a pacer and was trying to teach it not to pace in trot (if that's the right terminology) and it wouldn't do as she wanted so she jumped off it in the paddock in front of half the yard and basically beat the c**p out of it with her stick.  She ended up actualyl having a nervous breakdown a minute following this and she was going through difficult problems at home but it wasn't a justifiable excuse in my opinon.


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## Fellewell (3 June 2011)

IHK said:



			Out of interest Hooligan how often do your horses do these things? I don't carry a whip with any of my six and I've never had any of the problems you mention.  Perhaps you're just unlucky.
		
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Yep you need to handle "hundreds of horses" to know what you're talking about. I don't think I'd argue with THIS lady.


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## Enfys (3 June 2011)

Spyda said:



I'd never hit, whip, kick, punch a horse as 'punishment' or to defend myself. Nor would I do it for any other reason (just incase you're left wondering )! There are better ways to manage _any_ situation that may arise between a horse and a human being. 99% of the time confidence, body language, your voice and quick thinking can resolve a tricky situation. I try to avoid the other 1% occurring 

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As I see it, there *is* a difference between angry and frightened. Frightened will go over you and keep going.  Angry will go over you and then come back to finish you off. 
Frightened *and* angry is probably the most dangerous because the horse is fighting for his life in his eyes, but that scenario is probably the one most easily avoided - as you say, with forethought and commonsense.

As I said before, when incidents happen, you don't think, you naturally literally fight to survive, it is human nature, we *want* to live, instinct takes over. I don't care where the blame lies, who did what to whom, whether something should have been done that wasn't, or was done that should not have, at that very moment in time it *has* happened and if you want to learn from it you have to deal with it first. 

I believe that it generally takes years of experience/training/observation, with many horses, in different situations to be capable of consciously tamping down your own instinct for survival when a 1000lb of horse is on the warpath. My own pathetic instinct is to get out of the way or at least protect myself, I might _know_ what I _should_ do but my body doesn't always do as it is told, like _maybe_ I should jump up and down, wave my arms, make myself big when a horse rushes me. Nope, that sad old body of mine takes it upon itself to get the hell out of the way by whatever means available and sod what the brain thinks.


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## Alphamare (3 June 2011)

Yes i would. When the situation warrants it. 
I have a very nervous 4 year old part draft. I have only hit him once. Actually i didnt hit i kicked him. I was putting boots on him, and doing it nicely and gently and he cow kicked me, not only did he cow kick me but he got my hand. So i kicked him. He has NEVER kicked out again, not once not even a threaten. 

I also have a fairly bolshy cob. He went for one of the mares in the field and then he came flying passed me and tried to double barrel my head. I didnt hit him. I chased him away, i probably spent about two hours chasing him away from me and the other horses, but that behavior has never repeated itself. 


I too have bitten a horse, the kind of horse that lunges at anyone walking passed their stable. She did it too me one day and the angle was just perfect i turned my head and chomped down on her nose. She never went for me again. 

Sometimes the situation warrents it. 

I had to laugh, i was taking one of the horses out in hand and she barged me. I slapped her on the chest and a woman walking a very large doberman looked at me with wide eyes and said 'oh my god you are treating that horse like a dog' I took the time to explain to her what i did and why it was appropriate. She walked off nodding


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## mystiandsunny (3 June 2011)

If I am or someone else is in physical danger.  So:

- if horse is on my foot, or about to tread on my foot.
- if horse has bitten or is about to bite.
- if horse is about to, or is kicking out
- if horse is trying to shove me out of the way (with body or head)
- if horse is trying to run off for grass

All of the above are done with my hand, a light stinging slap, and believe me it hurts me probably as much as it hurts them, but they get the point and it's a quick learning experience - after they've been with me a week or two I very rarely have to correct any horse on the safety front.  I make sure it's within a second of the event or as it's acutally happening so they can connect what they did with the consequence, and none of them are scared of me or my hand afterwards.  It's certainly nothing like as harsh as the punishment they deal out to each other!


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## LaurenBay (3 June 2011)

Spyda said:



			I'd never hit, whip, kick, punch a horse as 'punishment' or to defend myself. Nor would I do it for any other reason (just incase you're left wondering )! There are better ways to manage _any_ situation that may arise between a horse and a human being. 99% of the time confidence, body language, your voice and quick thinking can resolve a tricky situation. I try to avoid the other 1% occurring 

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Could I ask what you wouldv'e done in my situation then? I am a confident handler, I couldn't use too much body language as I was pinned against a tree and was struggling to breathe, my voice was not doing anything. She was not listening to me, I asked her to move away from me and she didn't do it. She knows what back means, she has never ever done anything like this before and always has been a pleasure to handle. so it wasn't due to lack of understanding either. She just choose this day not to listen to me. 

There was knowone else around and I was in a lot of pain, she was still barging into me and it got to the point were I could here my ribs cracking. So I hit her, it worked!! that was 2 years ago now and she has never tried that again. She's not headshy because of it and had I not done it I would've probably ended up with broken ribs and perhaps a punctured lung.

I'm not trying to start an arguement but I am interested to know how you would've handled it ?


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## Lady La La (3 June 2011)

lexiedhb said:



			yes i have- the most noted time when I looked down the yard and saw an empty wheelchair, and then heard screaming coming from a known nasty stallions box..... he had dragged her over the door and was proceeding to trample her- took me several wallops to even get him to acknowledge i was there, let alone stop pawing at the disabled lady on the floor.

So to all those who "never hit a horse" how exactly would you have resolved that situation? let him carry on until he got bored, and she was dead?
		
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Jesus Lex. That sounds ******* awful.


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## Kadastorm (3 June 2011)

Yes i will hit/kick a horse if it warrents it. 
Had a youngster attack someone when trying to catch another pony the other day, it double barreled him twice. It got a good whack and kick and it hasnt come at anyone since - lesson learnt? probably.
We also have a cob x who is a real sweetheart to ride but a bugger on the ground and will lunge at people to bite them, he gets a swift whack and then he's fine. 
If we let the horses get away with things then it puts our clients and ourselves at risk. We dont beat our horses and we dont use those methods unless we have to. 
Same goes for loading, riding on the road, riding to a fence - whips will be used when needed and then alot of praise when the horse does what its asked. 
They are big animals, im not going to stand and say 'naughty naughty' im going to make it clear im not happy-just like they do to other horses.


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## only_me (3 June 2011)

Yep, I will hit a horse if I needed to.
Timing is everything with a whip; it can act as a reminder or as a go button. I don't get the attitude of those who never have a whip - to carry or to use - a whip when riding is a safety item - just because you carry it dosen't mean you have to use it! 

It is incredibly naive to think that you will never hit a horse - and shows that the person who thinks this is not taking responsibility for the half tonne of animal with a mind of its own...!


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## SplashofSoy (3 June 2011)

I find it interesting that some say they never carry a stick when even the BHS as part of their riding and road safety course and exam insist you carry a whip when on the road just in case.  This is not for indicating to traffic etc as this is not correct for hand signals but even they recognise that there may be cases when riding a whip may need to be used and if it gets to the point where you do have to use it in a dangerous situation a wallop rather than a tap is probably going to be required.


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## Kadastorm (3 June 2011)

SplashofSoy said:



			I find it interesting that some say they never carry a stick when even the BHS as part of their riding and road safety course and exam insist you carry a whip when on the road just in case.  This is not for indicating to traffic etc as this is not correct for hand signals but even they recognise that there may be cases when riding a whip may need to be used and if it gets to the point where you do have to use it in a dangerous situation a wallop rather than a tap is probably going to be required.
		
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Exactly. 

in all your BHS exams, you should carry a whip. 
it is definately a safety item, 
i wouldnt go without.


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## fibelle (3 June 2011)

I so wish there was a quote button on the mobile version of HHO - so many quotable posts, good & bad!!

The person who said horses don't hit each other made me laugh - I'll tell that to the big hunter next time one of his fieldmates steps out of line!

I don't carry a whip generally as I don't feel my boyneeds it


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## Spudlet (3 June 2011)

I generally have a short crop stuck down in my long boot out hacking, with just the top inch sticking out. If I need it, it's there, if not it's out of the way. I've never needed it yet... but it's been there just in case. The only exception is if an owner specifically asks me not to carry one, in which case I would respect their wishes.


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## fibelle (3 June 2011)

I so wish there was a quote button on the mobile version of HHO - so many quotable posts, good & bad!!

The person who said horses don't hit each other made me laugh - I'll tell that to the big hunter next time one of his fieldmates steps out of line!

I don't carry a whip generally as I don't feel my boy needs it but I wouldn't hesitate to give him a good hard slap with my hand if it was warranted to remind him of his manners. 

There have been occasions in the past where i've swung a headcollar or whatever if I've been under threat - anyone who says they wouldn't do that deserves the double barrels that were coming their way if you ask me!! ;-)


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## Wagtail (3 June 2011)

I think there is a vast difference between someone who is always slapping their horse and whacking it when riding etc. and someone who hits a horse in self defence. People who are saying that horses won't attack unless there is something seriously wrong, just don't know what they are talking about. It is a sad fact that there ARE a small minority of horses that are plain mean and vicious. Now maybe they hve been made that way by bad handling or experience, but it is not always the case.

I run a livery yard and will not have any 'nasty' horses on it. I once had to ask a person to leave because their horse was a total psycho with other horses (though lovely with people). I have only come across one truly nasty horse (with humans) in over 30 years of keeping horses, and that was the mare I mentioned earlier in the thread. This is probably because I choose horses on temperament, and ability/looks etc come second. I don't have to hit any horses, though  do sometimes carry a schooling whip (but never use it - just wiggle it) as it works wonders making my horse work more forward. I can't stand seeing people beat their horses for refusing jumps etc. They are not machines!


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## talkinghorse (3 June 2011)

Interesting the way this thread has gone. There are two sorts of people it seems, those who have had serious problem horses to deal with and have found a way to do it that doesn't involve violence, and those who think violence is the only way. 

Wonder whom the horses would choose?


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## Kelly Marks (3 June 2011)

Hi
What I'm finding most surprising on here is the amount of horses attacking and biting people.  Do other people consider this normal?  When I worked in Dehli for the Brooke Hospital I came across truly vicious horses and I would say a high percentage worldwide (always exceptions) would be 'trained' to be vicious in the same way.

Training Your Horse to be Vicious: Method One: The MOST effective way would be to hand rear or over handle and spoil as a foal and then just as they get a bit older give them a real good beating.  They've lost their flight instinct and with the beating they become attack animals.

Method Two: Randomly feed treats from your pockets and then when they push or barge you next time smack them on the nose. Sometimes smack, sometimes give treats, sometimes smack - this is a good way to get a really cunning biter who learns to snatch at you then run off with a piece of you still in his mouth.

Anyone know how you teach a horse to kick you?    Of course you do!


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## ngrace (3 June 2011)

talkinghorse said:



			Interesting the way this thread has gone. There are two sorts of people it seems, those who have had serious problem horses to deal with and have found a way to do it that doesn't involve violence, and those who think violence is the only way. 

Wonder whom the horses would choose?
		
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Poorly analysed.
And actually they arent saying that violence is the only way.


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## FairyLights (3 June 2011)

If it stood on my foot and wouldnt get off.


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## horseless jorge! (3 June 2011)

There's been many times I've had to give a horse a proper smack. Different horses, different situations means lots of smacks sometimes.
Say, when Shogun comes in on his own to be tacked up. There's not an issue until he sees another horse being brought in, and then he turns into a huge monster. He must grow about three feet, he tries to spin and kick out. He is always very naughty, and that's when he needs a smack. A hard one. After I've asserted myself to 'hey, I AM actually still here!!' then he's fine.


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## Lady La La (3 June 2011)

talkinghorse said:



			Interesting the way this thread has gone. There are two sorts of people it seems, those who have had serious problem horses to deal with and have found a way to do it that doesn't involve violence, and those who think violence is the only way. 

Wonder whom the horses would choose?
		
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Well now lets see...

If horses minds work by this reckoning I think the choice would be as follows:

"I chose not to reveive a smack from my rider, and thus I chose to throw myself into the middle of the road and underneath that on coming lorry. Yes I choose death."

or

"I choose to reveive a smack from my rider, so that I quickly swing my arse back into the position it should be in and thus my backend remains in tact and the driver of that lorry wont have nightmares for years to come. Yes, I choose to live, and carry on eating grass."

As I'm sure we all know, horses minds don't work thusly... however, if they did.. I too wonder which they would choose


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## Molly'sMama (3 June 2011)

I think there is a vast difference between someone who is always slapping their horse and whacking it when riding etc. and someone who hits a horse in self defence. People who are saying that horses won't attack unless there is something seriously wrong, just don't know what they are talking about. It is a sad fact that there ARE a small minority of horses that are plain mean and vicious. Now maybe they hve been made that way by bad handling or experience, but it is not always the case.

I run a livery yard and will not have any 'nasty' horses on it. I once had to ask a person to leave because their horse was a total psycho with other horses (though lovely with people). I have only come across one truly nasty horse (with humans) in over 30 years of keeping horses, and that was the mare I mentioned earlier in the thread. This is probably because I choose horses on temperament and ability/looks etc come second. I don't have to hit any horses, though do sometimes carry a schooling whip (but never use it - just wiggle it) as it works wonders making my horse work more forward. I can't stand seeing people beat their horses for refusing jumps etc. They are not machines!
		
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And I never hit my horse when riding, she's been beaten in the past and doesnt need it. BUT there is a nasty horse at our yard and when going to fetch my horse in from the field once, she did try to attack me and I did react in utter self defence. When I got back , I said to my mother I didnt think about it , or myself , but yelled NO and smacked her with her headcollar/rope pretty hard. I dont like hitting horses but I have no doubt she would have tried to doublebarrel me or something. Said maniac horse also bites a lot in stable, my friend at yard , was coming out from her stable & as she was undoing the bolt , the horse bit her so the skin broke .She gave the horse a whack on head but...she has a massive bruise and cut, and no worse than a alpha horse in the wild would have done. 

I hate it when people smack their horses when riding , 'specially after a course of jumps. Once saw a girl ( about 15) make her little 14hh going round a 2'9 course. Horse was trying but not getting any room to stretch and girl got eliminated , after a few refusals but she stormed out and hit it. After the round . That made me see red.


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## Kelly Marks (3 June 2011)

I find it surprising as well so many horses owned by H & H forum members (as well as biting and attacking) appear to want to throw themselves in front of lorries.  I would have thought that would be fairly unusual.

Obviously these horses would have been got used to traffic before being ridden out on the roads and, of course, they would be schooled to the basic aids.  Isn't it easier and safer to do a shoulder in towards the traffic rather than hit them which would raise their adrenalin and make the situation more dangerous?


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## galaxy (3 June 2011)

Very rarely, but I don't hesitate when it's appropriate.  Usually a stern "ah ah" and a tap with the back with my hand is enough for some of the grumpy ones that threaten to bite or lift a leg etc.  I wouldn't call that a hit, I'd call that a reminder.

There are some horses that I would never hit, nor ever have the need to.  I have never hit my new girl.  She is young and has never given me any need to.  I would never hit a horse for not understanding or being afraid.  Only if they were being dangerous and someone/me was going to get hurt.

The last horse I truely hit was a clients 12hh pony.  He only a companion really, but they do lunge him occasionally. He's an old boy with horrendous manners. Anyway, they asked me to lunge him.  I took him out to the school and quietly sent him away from me, he stood up on his hind legs and charged AT me.  Little toad!  I had a stick in my hand and hit him over the chest with it.  I had no choice, he would have come down on my head.  After that though he lunged perfectly.  He just didn't want to do it and was trying it on.  He has obviously gotten away with it in the past.

I do suspect those who have replied with "never" are the rope wagglers and stick wavers of this world, that because those that be say it's not violent to wave a stick around the head, or sock it in the jaw with a clip of a lead rope think that their way is a better way.  I'd have to disagree.


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## SplashofSoy (3 June 2011)

IHK said:



			I find it surprising as well so many horses owned by H & H forum members (as well as biting and attacking) appear to want to throw themselves in front of lorries.  I would have thought that would be fairly unusual.
		
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The OP question was would you do it, many give examples of things that do not involve thier own horses.  My horse is brilliant in traffic but would always carry a stick and am fully prepared to use it should the need arise.


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## Queenbee (3 June 2011)

lexiedhb said:



			yes i have- the most noted time when I looked down the yard and saw an empty wheelchair, and then heard screaming coming from a known nasty stallions box..... he had dragged her over the door and was proceeding to trample her- took me several wallops to even get him to acknowledge i was there, let alone stop pawing at the disabled lady on the floor.

So to all those who "never hit a horse" how exactly would you have resolved that situation? let him carry on until he got bored, and she was dead?
		
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Your behaviour was completely out of line, you should have waved your finger left to right in his face and asked him nicely if he would mind putting the lady back down, that would have been more effective


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## Molly'sMama (3 June 2011)

Your behaviour was completely out of line, you should have waved your finger left to right in his face and asked him nicely if he would mind putting the lady back down, that would have been more effective 

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Yes yes, I agree, maybe you should have also given him a treat after for putting the lady down nicely & told her not to go so close to him


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## amandap (3 June 2011)

galaxy23 said:



			Very rarely, but I don't hesitate when it's appropriate.  Usually a stern "ah ah" and a tap with the back with my hand is enough for some of the grumpy ones that threaten to bite or lift a leg etc.  I wouldn't call that a hit, I'd call that a reminder.
		
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But, why are they 'grumpy?' 
Horses and even humans generally (ime) are only grumpy when they're fed up, sore, feeling ill or generally unhappy... aka something is wrong! Horses of course can learn that humans might suddenly hit them or do something that hurts them or put them two feet away from their arch enemy in the field and learn to watch out behind, defend before attacked from humans or the horse. Once a horse sees how effective kicking out is at keeping humans away I believe it can quickly become a sort of default behaviour.... those horses that you daren't walk behind...


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## Spudlet (3 June 2011)

IHK said:



			I find it surprising as well so many horses owned by H & H forum members (as well as biting and attacking) appear to want to throw themselves in front of lorries.  I would have thought that would be fairly unusual.

Obviously these horses would have been got used to traffic before being ridden out on the roads and, of course, they would be schooled to the basic aids.  Isn't it easier and safer to do a shoulder in towards the traffic rather than hit them which would raise their adrenalin and make the situation more dangerous?
		
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I think people are probably giving hypothetical situations as examples of when they might consider it necessary / acceptable to hit a horse.


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## lexiedhb (3 June 2011)

Lady La La said:



			Jesus Lex. That sounds ******* awful.
		
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yeah wasnt the best day I had had- literally leathered it 3 times ( with ashort leather whip- that was kept outside its stable for use whne leading th horrible little *ucker)before I could even take its focus of her. She was bruised so badly, especially her legs, as she could not get them out of his way- lucky she did not break anything.



queenbee said:



			Your behaviour was completely out of line, you should have waved your finger left to right in his face and asked him nicely if he would mind putting the lady back down, that would have been more effective 

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Right- shall remember this for next time 

I think the most shocking thing is that there were PLENTY of people willing to breed from it.....


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## Queenbee (3 June 2011)

talkinghorse said:



			Interesting the way this thread has gone. There are two sorts of people it seems, those who have had serious problem horses to deal with and have found a way to do it that doesn't involve violence, and those who think violence is the only way. 

Wonder whom the horses would choose?
		
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Utter BS!  I have had a string of serious problem horses, some aggressive and some afraid of their own shadow, some, boundaries, discipline and understanding come in many different forms, what works for some horses wont work for others, some problem horses are agressive and dangerous because they have been spoilt and had scared owners, they do need to lose a fight (I don't specifically mean take a hit, I mean being stongly reprimanded or losing in a battle of wills) and look to their handler/rider as their leader and give the decision making over to them, other horses have been turned into problem horses because of overly harsh treatment and as such need a different approach of building trust and confidence, some have been beaten and never given boundaries and are dangerous nervous wrecks, see my post of the bargy mare who I kneed in the chest, once she understood that she wasn't supposed to charge out the stable after/over me or anyone and that she was to stay in the stable, you could almost see the tension drain out of her and everything in her relax. My Friesian x TB mare was never beaten, never agressive, just flighty and a diva, I would kill anyone who hit her because I know that whatever the situation it would turn her into a wreck and probably trigger her flight instinct, for other horses it is enough of a tool to snap them out of a dangerous situation before they hurt themselves, you or someone else.  It is not about problem V's non problem! Jesus christ!  It is about learning to read and understand the INDIVIDUAL horse and the INDIVIDUAL situation and reacting ACCORDINGLY and APPROPRIATELY!


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## amandap (3 June 2011)

Molly'sMama said:



			Yes yes, I agree, maybe you should have also given him a treat after for putting the lady down nicely & told her not to go so close to him  

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Lol but seriously, why was the person in the wheelchair in a position to be grabbed over the door, what were they doing? Is the stallion known for this sort of behaviour? 
My Step daughter is in a wheelchair and she has very strict instructions to keep well away from strange horses and unattended horses she doesn't know or have a rapport with.

Of course if a human has somehow managed to get themselves attacked by a horse whatever needs to be done has to be done to save them. How about trying to PREVENT these occurrences though?


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## lexiedhb (3 June 2011)

SHE WAS THE YARD MANAGER

Injured in a riding accident, and still riding sidesaddle with assistance

IT WAS AN ACCIDENT, someone had not shut said gobshites top door


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## Lady La La (3 June 2011)

Spudlet said:



			I think people are probably giving hypothetical situations as examples of when they might consider it necessary / acceptable to hit a horse.
		
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I make you right


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## Queenbee (3 June 2011)

lexiedhb said:



			I think the most shocking thing is that there were PLENTY of people willing to breed from it.....
		
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Herein lies the basis for another thread!!  Breed from a totally unsuitable horse and produce a number of additional gits!


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## Enfys (3 June 2011)

IHK said:



			I find it surprising as well so many horses owned by H & H forum members (as well as biting and attacking) appear to want to throw themselves in front of lorries.  I would have thought that would be fairly unusual. Considering there are what? Tens of thousands of registered members, then the percentage is actually minute, and presumably these are not _all_ owned by members, merely incidents experienced over many years, about 30 in my case for a start.

Obviously these horses would have been got used to traffic before being ridden out on the roads and, of course, they would be schooled to the basic aids.  Isn't it easier and safer to do a shoulder in towards the traffic rather than hit them which would raise their adrenalin and make the situation more dangerous?

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In a perfect world, yes, but this world isn't perfect, or predictable. there could be a horse eating dandelion on the verge that particular day at that particular moment in time that is more distracting than a car or the rider on top. So many variables, it is hard to say "Oh, but they should be..." they might be, but things happen. A "hey, pay attention!" type reminder isn't going to ruin the horse.

My horses don't take a blind bit of notice of traffic, either beside them in the paddock or riding past them, what made my mare leap sideways down a 12' embankment into a drain was a sodding woodchuck crossing the road 30' away...terrifying apparently  Nothing I could have done would have stopped her, even if I had time, and I didn't, one minute we are passing a tractor the size of a house dragging equipment the length of my barn, the next we are in mid air thinking "Oh crap, this is going to hurt!" This is a horse that I can get a sliding stop from, at a gallop, simply by raising my hand and shifting my weight. A trained horse is not an infallible one.


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## La Fiaba (3 June 2011)

I think it is also important to understand the difference between being aggressive and being assertive, some people do think they are one and the same.

Just yesterday, my mare bit her 2 week old filly on the ar5e because she was getting too close to another horse that was obviously saying 'get away'. Filly didn't understand, mum gave her a sharp telling to move out the way, filly avoided possibly getting hurt worse. (Mum then proceeded to give a very stern warning to other horse to stay away from her girl!) Sounds very similar to 'I gave my horse a smack with a whip because it was about to be hit by a lorry/fall down a ditch/squash me against a tree' etc doesn't it?

My horses (and probably most peoples on here) are given every oppurtunity to do the right thing without using violence. If a horse is repeatedly or excessively beaten for no reason then that is abuse plain and simple and we need to understand the difference.


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## galaxy (3 June 2011)

amandap said:



			But, why are they 'grumpy?' 
Horses and even humans generally (ime) are only grumpy when they're fed up, sore, feeling ill or generally unhappy... aka something is wrong! Horses of course can learn that humans might suddenly hit them or do something that hurts them or put them two feet away from their arch enemy in the field and learn to watch out behind, defend before attacked from humans or the horse. Once a horse sees how effective kicking out is at keeping humans away I believe it can quickly become a sort of default behaviour.... those horses that you daren't walk behind...
		
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Said horse I was thinking about was a homebred out of a mare that shouldn't have been bred from.  Apparently she was a nasty piece of work and bullied her foal until he was weaned.  He is no where near as bad as his mum, and with some work is better than he was (he used to attack you when you tried to feed him), but he default is to lift a leg if if people are behind him (noone goes close) or go to nip if someone walks past his stable.  There is nothing wrong with him (all checks done), he was just brought up badly by his mother....  But if you go "ah ah" or worst case a light slap if he lifts a leg, he remembers his manners and is fine.  He is better than he was when his owner bought him 4 years ago when to be honest he was vile!  He has never been beaten (we know full history) and we have never walloped him.  For all his grumpiness he is sensitive to discipline.  

Some horses can have these default behaviours you have to learn to live with.  I know another mare that ALWAYS tries to bite you when you touch her girth area.  She's quite old, came with a terribly fitting saddle.  Her saddle now is perfect and back or sorted, but it's a ingrained reflex behaviour she has done for years because she used to expect pain.  Yes that is terribly sad, and lots of time has been spent with her to make her disassociate it, she is always girthed very gently and slowly, but yet she still does it.  Does that mean you just let her bite you?  I don't think so.  But we are always aware she is going to do it, and usually an "ah ah" as she swings her head around is enough to no get bitten.

Sometimes, no matter how much time you spend and no matter how many checks you do, you cannot rectify long ingrained behaviours.


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## Ranyhyn (3 June 2011)

I was saying only yesterday that there is a very find line between being the boss of a horse and bullying a horse.

No good is to be gained by brutalising and humiliating a horse, but the same is to be said for mollycoddling and spoiling.  A true leader gains respect by always being fair.  Some times in order to be fair you have to to dole out some harsh punishment.  If a horse is truly misbehaving then a sharp, meaningful punishment should serve the purpose of letting them know that's not ok.

This said, every horse is an individual and if someone has already brutalised the horse you are dealing with, then the same processes of leadership do not work.

My Ed would have fought to the death if I had gone to him with the view to beating him for anything.  It took a long while to read the signs, read his body language etc going into his stable his ears would be back, he'd lift a leg, stamp, flick his tail and do everything to tell me to get out of his face.  However if I didn't  bother him in any way he was fine.  So I went in, groomed/tacked up and got on with it.

The one day I made the stupid mistake of mithering him (i hugged him round his neck) he reached over and picked me up by my thigh.  I don't remember ever feeling pain like it.






Hitting him would never have solved his issues, at 12yo everything was too ingrained.  And I truly believe had I gone in there bloody minded, he would have killed me.  So we worked around it and found ways to still get done what I wanted without him feeling the need to fight.


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## Spudlet (3 June 2011)

The other thing is, it's all very well saying that a situation should have been avoided and nine times out of ten that's probably true, but when you are in that situation saying 'oh goodness, this shouldn't be happening, tut tut tut' is perhaps not the best reaction - you have to deal with the situation in front of you as it is, then try and learn from it afterwards and avoid it happening again.

A real example then:
I was out on a group hack, the route of which lead past a scarmbling track (you know, where people on motorbikes go round and round over humps and things). All a bit unnerving, but the horses knew it fairly well so normally they went past with a bit of looky looky and maybe some jogging.

On this day, one of the bikers was wheeling his machine down the bridlepath to the track, and he stood in the hedge for us. Unfortunately one of the other horses got freaked, and started backing up - right onto this guy. He had nowhere to go, the horse was not listening to leg aids, the rest of the group had gone on - it was just me, the lady on that horse in front of me, and one other ride escort. The lady was starting to panic, the biker was somewhat concerned (!) and someone was going to get hurt, so the escort told the lady to smack the horse, which she (eventually) did, which got him to step forward, and I then gave her a lead past the biker, which I had been unable to do before due to the position all the horses were standing in.

Now, should she have been on that horse? Probably not, but all riders were assessed before going out, so how could it be foreseen that this would happen? Should the rest of the ride have gone on like they did? Again probably not, but they had and that was that - they were gone, and there was no getting them back. The ride escort with them got into trouble over that I believe, but at that moment, the situation was as it was and needed to be dealt with. The route and the bike noise was known to all the horses, the horses were all well schooled, but despite all that things went wrong and someone was going to get hurt - the lady, the biker, and/or the horse when he landed on top of the bike. So in that situation, I consider a smack to be very much the lesser of two evils.


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## Enfys (3 June 2011)

queenbee said:



			It is not about problem V's non problem! Jesus christ!  It is about learning to read and understand the INDIVIDUAL horse and the INDIVIDUAL situation and reacting ACCORDINGLY and APPROPRIATELY!
		
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 Amen to that.


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## team barney (3 June 2011)

lexiedhb said:



			yes i have- the most noted time when I looked down the yard and saw an empty wheelchair, and then heard screaming coming from a known nasty stallions box..... he had dragged her over the door and was proceeding to trample her- took me several wallops to even get him to acknowledge i was there, let alone stop pawing at the disabled lady on the floor.
		
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I don't know who people can breed from horses like that.  In my opinion only horses with the best of temperaments should be kept entire.  There are far too many useless nasty stallions and colts out there how should be gelded.  Instead they sit in stables/fields and breed countless foal each year from (usually) questionable quality mares.  Breeding like this is a real hate of mine.  

Better off gelded and being someones low level comp horse than polluting the equine gene pool.

I would geld any horse if it showed it's self to have a questionable temperament, regardless of talent bloodlines or colour. It could be the next Totilas or Arko, I don't care it's bits would be straight off!

I've seen the results of these stallion and they often get worse every generation, any quality goes but that dreadful temperament remains 

Sorry rant over, it is just a real pet hate of mine.


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## kickonchaps (3 June 2011)

I have no qualms whatsoever about walloping my horse from the saddle if he's napping for no reason, and I emphasise the no reason part because I only do it if I know he's not in pain or genuinely scared. It's easy to tell which is which, because if I hit him and he's not being naughty, one way or another I will end up on the floor  But if he's trying it on, he'll get on with it! Mostly I avoid situations where we'll have a falling out but if he chucks a tantrum just because I asked him to walk in front on a hack, he gets a good telling off! 

He's generally very polite on the ground, but he does like to wander round when I'm trying to groom him - the obvious answer is to tie him up so he can't do this, but I admit to generally just getting out the way. One day getting ready for a competition I was just poopicking the stable before plaiting, hadn't tied him up yet, and as he walked round the back of me he knocked into me. I decided I wasn't putting up with it anymore and slapped him on the chest - he looked a bit shocked, stepped back and did the same again. This time I elbowed him twice in quick succession and yelled GET BACK, but because he was at the back of the box with me effectively trapping him against the wall, he panicked and ran over me, trampling my leg. I spent half an hour with an elevated, iced ankle trying to get the swelling down enough to compete. Lesson learnt - be consistent, and be clear. 

The same horse lets me come into his stable while he's lying down, grab his neck and pull him over so he's flat out, and then sit on him, so he's clearly not scared of me, but he's certainly taught me a lot about managing tricky behaviour in a sensitive horse!


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## cptrayes (3 June 2011)

Fellewell said:



			I suspect if Andy rushed up to his horse yelling and brandishing a whip it would not bat an eyelid because it's not used to its handler randomly inflicting pain on it. Horses become whip-shy because they are often punished for something they haven't done or understood.
		
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If people are stupid enough to hit a horse for something it hasn't done or hasn't understood then they deserve what they get, even if the horse doesn't.

I doubt that you are right about Andy's horses because horses are flight animals and anything threatening and unusual will cause most horses to run.

Of course if you use  a whip in the course of training, it is not random and the horse does understand, provided you have your timing right, that he is not to repeat the behaviour which has been punished. To say, as some people have, that   a horse cannot learn from being hit is total and utter nonsense. It learns to avoid the behaviour it was doing immediately before, or while, it was hit.


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## Lady La La (3 June 2011)

team barney said:



			I don't know who people can breed from horses like that.  In my opinion only horses with the best of temperaments should be kept entire.  There are far too many useless nasty stallions and colts out there how should be gelded.  Instead they sit in stables/fields and breed countless foal each year from (usually) questionable quality mares.  Breeding like this is a real hate of mine.  

Better off gelded and being someones low level comp horse than polluting the equine gene pool.

I would geld any horse if it showed it's self to have a questionable temperament, regardless of talent bloodlines or colour. It could be the next Totilas or Arko, I don't care it's bits would be straight off!

I've seen the results of these stallion and they often get worse every generation, any quality goes but that dreadful temperament remains 

Sorry rant over, it is just a real pet hate of mine.
		
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I think thats another thread for another day


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## cptrayes (3 June 2011)

Can the no hitters please tell me, seriously, how they would train a ten hand Shetland to stay out of a feed store in case someone left the door open unattended by accident one day?  

I cannot see how this can be done with positive reinforcement and I'd really like to know if I had any other alternative than to make the feed store a nasty place for him to be.


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## Lady La La (3 June 2011)

cptrayes said:



			Can the no hitters please tell me, seriously, how they would train a ten hand Shetland to stay out of a feed store in case someone left the door open unattended by accident one day?  

I cannot see how this can be done with positive reinforcement and I'd really like to know if I had any other alternative than to make the feed store a nasty place for him to be.
		
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Not sure I agree with this - I wouldn't batter my shetland because some idiot left the feedshed door open and he helped himself to some food.

Surely the answer here to is to lead said shetland out of the feedshed and make sure the door is never left open again 

Edited - Actually, hang on.. Are you saying that you have hit your shetland, in the feedshed, in order to make it seem like a 'nasty' place to him, just in case one day someone leaves the door open?? ..thats all kinds of wrong.

Edited again - You're joking and I just haven't realised, aren't you...


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## M'n'M (3 June 2011)

If I had a good reason such as risk ofinjury because a horse is misbehaving, then yeah, duh I'm going to whallop them! But I wouldn't do it without just cause


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## cptrayes (3 June 2011)

Can the people who believe that horses do not rely on violence between themselves tell me how they think horse DO communicate with each other? I can tell you from watching mine for hours that this is NOT the conversation:

Dobbin: That looks like a nice piece of grass you have there. I need that bit of grass more than you do, would you mind if I had it instead of you?

Blackie: Oh, OK then, feel free, be my guest.

The conversation goes like THIS:

Dobbin: I am mentally and physically stronger than you and I want that bit of grass you've got and if you do not move away from it peacefully I WILL hurt you if I have to.

Blackie: No, I want it.

Dobbin: I am warning you more strongly here by pushing you with my shoulder, and if I have to I WILL kick you or bite you.

It then goes one of two ways. Blackie gives in or Dobbin kicks or bites him.



Why else do you think horses are increasingly being kept in one-horse turnouts?

How else do you think they are communicating, other than with the threat, if rarely carried though, of violence?

Someone once gave a statistic that wild horses were "only" seen to behave violently 2% of the time. That's nearly half an hour a day. And it isn't in a half hour burst, it's in 15/20/30 second bursts all through the day. And when it isn't overt violence going on, the threat of it is still used by the stronger of two horses to get his own way. 

Violence is a language that all preyed upon animals understand perfectly. I have no problem, from time to time, with speaking in that language to my horses.


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## cptrayes (3 June 2011)

Lady La La said:



			Not sure I agree with this - I wouldn't batter my shetland because some idiot left the feedshed door open and he helped himself to some food.

Surely the answer here to is to lead said shetland out of the feedshed and make sure the door is never left open again 

Edited - Actually, hang on.. Are you saying that you have hit your shetland, in the feedshed, in order to make it seem like a 'nasty' place to him, just in case one day someone leaves the door open?? ..thats all kinds of wrong.

Edited again - You're joking and I just haven't realised, aren't you...
		
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That's exactly what I am saying and no I am not joking. Eating unsoaked sugar beat could kill him. And with the best will in the world, I cannot guarantee that door will always be shut, there is stuff in there that my OH needs to get to. I have tried to train him but he won't let me hit him  and especially lately, while he has been ill, I found the door left open twice. 

In case it ever happens again, I want the Shetland to feel that the feed room is a dangerous place to be. I have succeeded in that aim with one well timed "beating" when I meant to frighten the bejaysus out of him for being in there. He has never done it again since. It may save his life. It may already have saved his life twice.

Now, please can you tell me, anyone, how you would achieve the same result with only positive reinforcement?

Or would you just spend the rest of his life giving yourself the additional hassle of moving your feed store up a flight of stairs out of his way, even if it meant you ruptured your discs carrying 25kg sacks of food upstairs and broke your neck carrying buckets full of food down again?


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## Indy (3 June 2011)

I've got a shetland who has escaped and managed to sniff out the grain shed.  The trick I found which cured her was to make sure to shut the door not to kick her arse from one end of Doncaster to the other.


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## Spudlet (3 June 2011)

I would give myself the hassle, frankly. Or store the feed in pony proof containers, for example in dustbins which can be easily and cheaply modified to be unopenable without opposable thumbs with a length of wire.

ETA also, there is a good chance that the pony will have learned not to go into the feedroom when you are about, not never to go in there at all. If you want to build an association with a place you need to remove yourself from the situation, so for example setting up a booby trap that will make a frightening noise when the door is opened or similar. Or better still, keep the door shut...


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## much-jittering (3 June 2011)

Really interesting coming back and reading this thread now it's grown 15+ pages since I last read it.

The thing that I'm seeing is that *some* of the 'never' people are making out that the people who have said 'yes' are habitually beating horses - and sitting and reading the thread I really don't think that's the case. I can't think of a single 'maybe/yes' post on this whole thread where it isn't perfectly clear that the person will only do it if it's warranted, will make allowances for a genuinely frightened horse etc etc. Nobody has come accross as somebody I wouldn't send a horse to because I think they'd be beaten up. 

That is where the 'holier that thou' accusations come from - way back in the thread there was a comment along the lines of 'how can somebody who loves horses hit one', and that sort of thing just isn't helpful IMHO.

Hitting or not hitting horses is not the thing that makes you a better horseperson than somebody else, how good a horseperson you are is what makes that difference - based on the results you get, how you get them, and just how you are. More than one road to Rome and all that. Nobody is 100% right so nobody has the moral highground I'm afraid, and the people on this thread who've taken it (on either side of the arguement) have just made themselves look silly.


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## aimeetb (3 June 2011)

talkinghorse said:



			Interesting the way this thread has gone. There are two sorts of people it seems, those who have had serious problem horses to deal with and have found a way to do it that doesn't involve violence, and those who think violence is the only way. 

Wonder whom the horses would choose?
		
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talkinghorse said:



			Interesting the way this thread has gone. There are two sorts of people it seems, those who have had serious problem horses to deal with and have found a way to do it that doesn't involve violence, and those who think violence is the only way. 

Wonder whom the horses would choose?
		
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I do think this post is very short sighted and that you have conveniently neglected to recognise alot of people including myslef who have said that in any normal situation they would use any other method available to comunicate with their horse. I hardly think that those are the thoughts of someone who thinks violence is the only way. 

My method with horses that i work on is to never lose my temper and to simply keep quietly and patiently asking then heavily praise the good both ridden and on the ground, I would rather be patient for hours with a horse to help it understand than get angry. 

I have in the past taken advice and tried different methods and on accasions lost my temper but it doesnt work and I have had many a "conversation" with people who beat and shout at their horses for every little thing.

However, the only time I will smack a horse and I dont mean a little slap is as I said before if the horse attacks. If the horse is in pain or scared etc I believe and hope that I have a good enough eye and feel to know before it gets to the stage of it attacking me and as such I think most experienced horse people would know the difference and know when violence as you put it is required. If a horse does attack in aggression there is no excuse for that and it is not safe to allow it to go unchecked.

We have the pleasure of enjoying beautiful majestic animals who are also potential killers in the wrong hands that includes both people who beat their horses for everything turning them into aggressive and defensive animals and also the people who do not discipline their horses even for extreme behavior and turn them into aggressive, bolshy animals. 

There is a 3rd group that you failed to mention, those that are sensible and straight down the middle and who use the correct level of discipline for the situation, these people generally (even after starting with a difficult horse) end up with happy well mannered horses and a relationship based on mutual respect. I believe that is what the horse would choose.


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## Lady La La (3 June 2011)

cptrayes said:



			That's exactly what I am saying and no I am not joking. Eating unsoaked sugar beat could kill him. And with the best will in the world, I cannot guarantee that door will always be shut, there is stuff in there that my OH needs to get to. I have tried to train him but he won't let me hit him  and especially lately, while he has been ill, I found the door left open twice. 

In case it ever happens again, I want the Shetland to feel that the feed room is a dangerous place to be. I have succeeded in that aim with one well timed "beating" when I meant to frighten the bejaysus out of him for being in there. He has never done it again since. It may save his life.

Now, please can you tell me, anyone, how you would achieve the same result with only positive reinforcement?

Or would you just spend the rest of his life giving yourself the additional hassle of moving your feed store up a flight of stairs out of his way?
		
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I think you're totally and utterly bonkers...

If you're going to whack your pony around to try and avoid *possible* situations that *may* occur *if* someone forgets something one day... you'll be constantly beating him up?

...and what about your other horses? Do you take them into your feed shed just to scare them? Unsoaked sugarbeet doesn't just kill shetlands...

May I suggest next time, instead of beating your poor shetland up to 'save' his life, you just make sure the feed shed door is closed?

A well timed smack can work wonders in certain situations, but hitting a pony because you can't keep your feed shed door closed is ridiculous...


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## Queenbee (3 June 2011)

Enfys said:



 Amen to that.
		
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Just call me god


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## tallyho! (3 June 2011)

I think everything naughty should be given a good thwack! Including dogs and children. It never harmed me.... or the dog


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## cptrayes (3 June 2011)

Indy said:



			I've got a shetland who has escaped and managed to sniff out the grain shed.  The trick I found which cured her was to make sure to shut the door not to kick her arse from one end of Doncaster to the other.
		
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So tell me what you would do if other people use the door and you cannot be absolutely certain to be there? ANYONE can do what you do if they have complete control over the door. I don't.


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## Lady La La (3 June 2011)

cptrayes said:



			So tell me what you would do if other people use the door and you cannot be absolutely certain to be there? ANYONE can do what you do if they have complete control over the door. I don't.
		
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Move your shetland. Dont beat him up. FFS?


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## cptrayes (3 June 2011)

Lady La La said:



			I think you're totally and utterly bonkers...

If you're going to whack your pony around to try and avoid *possible* situations that *may* occur *if* someone forgets something one day... you'll be constantly beating him up?

...and what about your other horses? Do you take them into your feed shed just to scare them? Unsoaked sugarbeet doesn't just kill shetlands...

May I suggest next time, instead of beating your poor shetland up to 'save' his life, you just make sure the feed shed door is closed?

A well timed smack can work wonders in certain situations, but hitting a pony because you can't keep your feed shed door closed is ridiculous...
		
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You aren't married are you La La? If you think you can 100% control what a husband does you have a sad awakening to come!


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## cptrayes (3 June 2011)

Lady La La said:



			Move your shetland. Dont beat him up. FFS?
		
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Why? He would have to live alone if I moved him, and he loves being in company. The other horses are in stables when they are on the yard, he is the yard hoover. I have no stable for him. What on EARTH was wrong with one lesson? You people are unreal


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## amandap (3 June 2011)

cptrayes said:



			Can the no hitters please tell me, seriously, how they would train a ten hand Shetland to stay out of a feed store in case someone left the door open unattended by accident one day?  

I cannot see how this can be done with positive reinforcement and I'd really like to know if I had any other alternative than to make the feed store a nasty place for him to be.
		
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Lol! I'd say this might be asking for the impossible.  I don't have a feed store but I wouldn't know how to train them not to go in if the opportunity arose, I'd just make sure they weren't around or I didn't forget the door. 

Seriously though could you train him to stop at the door and wait? I don't use just positive reinforcement but clicker might work very well for this but I'm no clicker trainer either. Not much help am I lol. I need to think but I do think training to stop at the door and wait is the approach I'd take, just not sure how I'd train this specifically for this issue. The same as training 'stand' I think but I would definitely add the treat at the 'correct' time for this. You have the lure of grub to 'train' here... 


The difficulty with trying to train this behaviour is that if he does get in before fully trained the reward is so strong it may well overide any training. lol
He may well have already learned very well that he can go in alone if the opportunity arises.

I have no idea how successful this could be but good luck. I think this is one I'd try and work around tbh though. 
Hopefully someone has a good solution for you.

Mta. Just read back and seen about sugar beet etc. I would make sure he never got in I'm afraid. Training for something life threatening is taking a risk imo where food is concerned, people just have to be more aware and focussed or he must be put somewhere at feed times...


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## lazybee (3 June 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			I love this forum, for a horse forum where people are supposed to like or even love horses here people are lining up to brag to one another about hitting their horses with whips and how good it is for the horse. One or two including their dogs and children among their hapless victims.
Why do some people miss the point and focus on completely the wrong thing. No wonder there are so many confused horses out there.
The horse that was looking for sandwiches wasn't dangerous, it was looking for food. People mistook his intentions. When I found out what was going on the horse had to be moved,not punished. Some people rewarded his interest in them by feeding him others were terrified by him, he didn't know which monkey was which. I don't need a piece of anyone's mind over that, and they can take their fleas with them.
People backing their horses into cars all over the place, nothing but a whip to save their life.
And what about the professional horse, he gets a crack because being a professional should know better.

You really couldn't make some of it up, fantastic.
		
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All hail the great oracle


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## Wagtail (3 June 2011)

cptrayes said:



			Can the no hitters please tell me, seriously, how they would train a ten hand Shetland to stay out of a feed store in case someone left the door open unattended by accident one day?  

I cannot see how this can be done with positive reinforcement and I'd really like to know if I had any other alternative than to make the feed store a nasty place for him to be.
		
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I understand your thinking here, but I think you are acting completely irresponsibly by allowing the shetland ACCESS to the feed store in the first place. Why is he wandering around in the same area? Shouldn't the paddock be fenced off from the store? If not, all you need is some electric netting that you can step over, but little tubby tubs cannot. Far better than beating the poor little mite.


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## cptrayes (3 June 2011)

Spudlet said:



			I would give myself the hassle, frankly. Or store the feed in pony proof containers, for example in dustbins which can be easily and cheaply modified to be unopenable without opposable thumbs with a length of wire.

ETA also, there is a good chance that the pony will have learned not to go into the feedroom when you are about, not never to go in there at all. If you want to build an association with a place you need to remove yourself from the situation, so for example setting up a booby trap that will make a frightening noise when the door is opened or similar. Or better still, keep the door shut...
		
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I do not have the room to put up to 40 bags of horse food into containers. The pony cubes could be just as dangerous, if less likely to damage him.

Do none of you share your premises with people who are 100% to be trusted to close a door behind them???

I agree, a scare when I am not around would have been the next step, but it seems to be completely unnecessary, he's made the connection from one episode that physically did him not one jot of harm (for heaven's sake his coat was 3 inches thick at the time!!!) and mentally achieved exactly what I wanted it to.


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## Lady La La (3 June 2011)

cptrayes said:



			Why? He would have to live alone if I moved him, and he loves being in company. The other horses are in stables when they are on the yard, he is the yard hoover. I have no stable for him. What on EARTH was wrong with one lesson? You people are unreal 

Click to expand...

It must have been one hell of a beating if you only had to do it once and he really never ever strays back in there 

I'll stick to making sure dangerous situations aren't left readily available for my horses to walk into, cheers


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## Wagtail (3 June 2011)

cptrayes said:



			Why? He would have to live alone if I moved him, and he loves being in company. The other horses are in stables when they are on the yard, he is the yard hoover. I have no stable for him. What on EARTH was wrong with one lesson? You people are unreal 

Click to expand...

Of course, an even simpler solution would be to invest in a shetland proof grain bin. If a horse got in my feed room, it would not be able to get at any of the feed.


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## cptrayes (3 June 2011)

Wagtail said:



			I understand your thinking here, but I think you are acting completely irresponsibly by allowing the shetland ACCESS to the feed store in the first place. Why is he wandering around in the same area? Shouldn't the paddock be fenced off from the store? If not, all you need is some electric netting that you can step over, but little tubby tubs cannot. Far better than beating the poor little mite.
		
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The feed store is directly off the yard and when the horses are in he lives on the yard. I live in a National Park and I would not be able to get planning consent to build another feed store. Life is not as simple as you would all like it to be 

"Beating the poor little mite"  Are you talking about the cheeky, happy, playful pony I have out in my yard, or a poor downtrodden creature who is beaten every day in your own imagination?


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## Queenbee (3 June 2011)

cptrayes said:



			If people are stupid enough to hit a horse for something it hasn't done or hasn't understood then they deserve what they get, even if the horse doesn't.

I doubt that you are right about Andy's horses because horses are flight animals and anything threatening and unusual will cause most horses to run.

Of course if you use  a whip in the course of training, it is not random and the horse does understand, provided you have your timing right, that he is not to repeat the behaviour which has been punished. To say, as some people have, that   a horse cannot learn from being hit is total and utter nonsense. It learns to avoid the behaviour it was doing immediately before, or while, it was hit.
		
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1 beat the cr ap out of the human who was negligent enough to leave the door open, not the animal with the FAR smaller brain and FAR less reasoning power!!!!

2.  Put your sodding hand in your pocket and invest in a self closing hinge for the door since you and you're OH do not have brains that work.

3. Better still don't own a horse

I seriously hope you are joking, a smack for dangerous bolshy behaviour or to prevent an escilating situation (snap the horse out of it to save any injury) or to counter aggressive and again dangerous behaviour if ok in my opinion.

but this attitude of yours is quite barbaric


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## Spudlet (3 June 2011)

Then put a spring onto the door so it self closes. Like this one: http://www.handles4doors.co.uk/Iron...ng&utm_campaign=googlebase&utm_term={keyword}

£2.99 and a bit of time with a screwdriver, and your feed protected from ponies, rain blowing in etc. Lateral thinking.


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## cptrayes (3 June 2011)

Wagtail said:



			Of course, an even simpler solution would be to invest in a shetland proof grain bin. If a horse got in my feed room, it would not be able to get at any of the feed.
		
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I do not have room to put all the feed I buy in one lot in bins.


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## lexiedhb (3 June 2011)

team barney said:



			I don't know who people can breed from horses like that.  In my opinion only horses with the best of temperaments should be kept entire.  There are far too many useless nasty stallions and colts out there how should be gelded.  Instead they sit in stables/fields and breed countless foal each year from (usually) questionable quality mares.  Breeding like this is a real hate of mine.  

Better off gelded and being someones low level comp horse than polluting the equine gene pool.

I would geld any horse if it showed it's self to have a questionable temperament, regardless of talent bloodlines or colour. It could be the next Totilas or Arko, I don't care it's bits would be straight off!

I've seen the results of these stallion and they often get worse every generation, any quality goes but that dreadful temperament remains 

Sorry rant over, it is just a real pet hate of mine.
		
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I am with you 100%- some folk get hooked on the "bloodlines" and can not see the horrible thug in front of them.


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## cptrayes (3 June 2011)

Spudlet said:



			Then put a spring onto the door so it self closes. Like this one: http://www.handles4doors.co.uk/Iron...ng&utm_campaign=googlebase&utm_term={keyword}

£2.99 and a bit of time with a screwdriver, and your feed protected from ponies, rain blowing in etc. Lateral thinking.
		
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At the time the door is left open by other people, free access is required with arms full of tools and electrical equipment.


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## penhwnllys_stardust (3 June 2011)

queenbee said:



			1 beat the cr ap out of the human who was negligent enough to leave the door open, not the animal with the FAR smaller brain and FAR less reasoning power!!!!

2.  Put your sodding hand in your pocket and invest in a self closing hinge for the door since you and you're OH do not have brains that work.

3. Better still don't own a horse

I seriously hope you are joking, a smack for dangerous bolshy behaviour or to prevent an escilating situation (snap the horse to save any injury) or to counter aggressive and again dangerous behaviour if ok in my opinion.

but this attitude of yours is quite barbaric 

Click to expand...


This ^


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## Spudlet (3 June 2011)

Tough luck on them. They'll have to put their stuff down, won't they. Won't kill them.


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## Wagtail (3 June 2011)

cptrayes said:



			I do not have room to put all the feed I buy in one lot in bins.
		
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Then you must attract a lot of rats!


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## cptrayes (3 June 2011)

queenbee said:



			1 beat the cr ap out of the human who was negligent enough to leave the door open, not the animal with the FAR smaller brain and FAR less reasoning power!!!!

2.  Put your sodding hand in your pocket and invest in a self closing hinge for the door since you and you're OH do not have brains that work.

3. Better still don't own a horse

I seriously hope you are joking, a smack for dangerous bolshy behaviour or to prevent an escilating situation (snap the horse to save any injury) or to counter aggressive and again dangerous behaviour if ok in my opinion.

but this attitude of yours is quite barbaric 

Click to expand...



1. It's not his fault the poor man, he isn't a woman, you see and he forgets, especially when he was ill? I wouldn't hit any animal when it wasn't its fault and when it did it because it was ill. 

2. See above ref self closing door. Access is required which would mean that it has to be wedged open.

3. Ooh, barbaric! Shucks I'll just go beat myself up like so many horse owners seem to want to. Mostly the same ones that are too afraid to ride the horses they own (roughly 30% in the livery yard my friend used to manage).


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## cptrayes (3 June 2011)

Wagtail said:



			Then you must attract a lot of rats!
		
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I have three cats. I've seen two rats dead and one alive in 20 years. On eof the dead and the alive one wre probably the same rat but I can't swear to it


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## Wagtail (3 June 2011)

The largest of my bins stores twenty 20kg sacks and takes up no more room as it is designed t stack the standard size bags. I then open the bags as I need them into smaller bins.


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## Lady La La (3 June 2011)

cptrayes said:



			You aren't married are you La La? If you think you can 100% control what a husband does you have a sad awakening to come!
		
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I will be in 4 weeks and 1 day... not that having a ring on my finger will make even the slightest bit of difference to how my horses are looked after


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## JustMe22 (3 June 2011)

I've never hit hard enough to leave marks/draw blood, but if dangerous behaviour is involved I would.

One 8yo unbacked and virtually unhandled stallion (now gelded and much better behaved) was brought from a farm to a yard where I worked. He used to full on charge at people randomly with his teeth bared, I have no doubts that he would not hesitate to do serious damage. He did it once with me but I was next to the fence and got out quickly. After that I carried a crop so that if needs be I could smack him if he charged at me or any of the kids I taught (I did tell them to stay out of the paddock, but small children don't always listen). YO turned stallion out with the whole herd, so intensified the problem, and the gate between arena and paddock was only about 50cm. Couldn't take the risk of having him hurt kids. As it happened, I never needed it, but would have used it instantly had he come at us.

Also gave my horse a belt when he got crazy at his first show and reared multiple times, caught me on the jaw with his front hoof. Was very lucky that was all. Didn't leave marks though, it was only my hand


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## Damnation (3 June 2011)

I used to ride a cob who would nap badly. Wasn't scared, just knew he could get away with it. I used to give him an almighty wallop. I would rather that then he kept on reversing into a car... he did that on more then one occasion with his owner who didn't have the nerve to tell him! After he did it twice with me and I walloped him both times he never did it again.
It all depends on the situation, type of horse etc. 
If I was on something that was napping out of fear for example then no I would never wallop it.

ETA: I never left marks or drew blood.


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## cptrayes (3 June 2011)

Lady La La said:



			It must have been one hell of a beating if you only had to do it once and he really never ever strays back in there 

I'll stick to making sure dangerous situations aren't left readily available for my horses to walk into, cheers 

Click to expand...


I kicked him on his big round furry bottom with a foot in a rubber boot three times while yelling my head off at him and waving my arms violently in his general direction. 

He was uninjured in any way and he has been wary of the feed store ever since.

I am baffled what on earth all the fuss is about, do any of you really understand how tough a Shetland is and how difficult it would actually be to hurt them?


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## Queenbee (3 June 2011)

Spudlet said:



			Then put a spring onto the door so it self closes. Like this one: http://www.handles4doors.co.uk/Iron...ng&utm_campaign=googlebase&utm_term={keyword}

£2.99 and a bit of time with a screwdriver, and your feed protected from ponies, rain blowing in etc. Lateral thinking.
		
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spudlet:  great minds think alike


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## Queenbee (3 June 2011)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spudlet  
Then put a spring onto the door so it self closes. Like this one: http://www.handles4doors.co.uk/Ironm...={keyword}

£2.99 and a bit of time with a screwdriver, and your feed protected from ponies, rain blowing in etc. Lateral thinking. 





cptrayes said:



			At the time the door is left open by other people, free access is required with arms full of tools and electrical equipment.
		
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bring on the *head-desk* smiley or even the shotgun one.

Cptrayes you are off the wall bonkers, are you for real?  THIS HAS TO BE A WIND UP!!!





please tell me it's a wind up


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## Lady La La (3 June 2011)

cptrayes said:



			I kicked him on his big round furry bottom with a foot in a rubber boot three times while yelling my head off at him and waving my arms violently in his general direction. 

He was uninjured in any way and he has been wary of the feed store ever since.

I am baffled what on earth all the fuss is about, do any of you really understand how tough a Shetland is and how difficult it would actually be to hurt them?
		
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Shouting at my shetland, and kicking him on his arse would do bob all to keep him away from food...

However it would probably do rather a lot to make him develope a rather strong fear/disslike for me. Not something I plan on doing anytime soon. I like that my animals like me. 
I also like that I'm capable of making sure all the doors on my yard are closed as and when they should be.


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## wench (3 June 2011)

For those that said they would just get out of the way when horse is attacking you... doesnt work like that. It's natural reaction to wallop the thing back.


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## cptrayes (3 June 2011)

Wagtail said:



			The largest of my bins stores twenty 20kg sacks and takes up no more room as it is designed t stack the standard size bags. I then open the bags as I need them into smaller bins.
		
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Good for you. 

Out of bins I can stack them as high as I like and take up less floor space. I used to buy smaller quantities and bin them when I had only one horse and it knackers your back getting the bottom ones out, and taking the last few out to rotate the stock when you buy a new lot is a complete nightmare of bending in half and lifting 20kg over a waist high barrier - definitely not recommended lifting technique!


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## cptrayes (3 June 2011)

Lady La La said:



			Shouting at my shetland, and kicking him on his arse would do bob all to keep him away from food...

However it would probably do rather a lot to make him develope a rather strong fear/disslike for me. Not something I plan on doing anytime soon. I like that my animals like me. 
I also like that I'm capable of making sure all the doors on my yard are closed as and when they should be. 

Click to expand...

Yeah yeah. He's so scared of me he follows me everywhere. I trim his feet without tying him up. And he comes to me every evening to have his muzzle put on. Yup, he's just terrified of me.

When are you people going to understand that horses children and dogs LIKE boundaries. It makes them feel safe.

If you have a husband you is prepared to have you watch him for every minute of every day in case he puts a foot out of line then you are married to a man who I would not touch with a bargepole


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## Wagtail (3 June 2011)

wench said:



			For those that said they would just get out of the way when horse is attacking you... doesnt work like that. It's natural reaction to wallop the thing back.
		
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Have to agree. I would class myself as a non hitter, but the time when that mare clamped her teeth round my arm, it was the worst pain I have ever felt and I was terrified. If I hadn't so much padding on she would have ripped off my whole biceps muscle and broken my arm. I screamed at her and threw some brushing boots at her. Completely illogical, I know, but it was a reflex reaction. I never went anywhere near her again. No horse has ever frightened me like that before or since. And all I was doing was checking if she had haylage.


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## Lady La La (3 June 2011)

cptrayes said:



			Yeah yeah. He's so scared of me he follows me everywhere. I trim his feet without tying him up. And he comes to me every evening to have his muzzle put on. Yup, he's just terrified of me.

When are you people going to understand that horses children and dogs LIKE boundaries. It makes them feel safe.

If you have a husband you is prepared to have you watch him for every minute of every day in case he puts a foot out of line then you are married to a man who I would not touch with a bargepole 

Click to expand...

Im simply (about to be) married to a man who is able to shut a door.
Nothing more. Nothing less.


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## Queenbee (3 June 2011)

cptrayes said:



			1. It's not his fault the poor man, he isn't a woman, you see and he forgets, especially when he was ill? ).
		
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Then SHOOT HIM!



cptrayes said:



			I wouldn't hit any animal when it wasn't its fault and when it did it because it was ill. TELL THAT TO YOUR SHETLAND).
		
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cptrayes said:



			2. See above ref self closing door. Access is required which would mean that it has to be wedged open.).
		
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YES, APPARENTLY BY YOUR SHETLAND



cptrayes said:



			3. Ooh, barbaric! Shucks I'll just go beat myself up like so many horse owners seem to want to. Mostly the same ones that are too afraid to ride the horses they own (roughly 30% in the livery yard my friend used to manage).
		
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I AM NOT ONE OF THOSE^^^




Queenbee is now leaving the forum before she jumps out of someones computer screen and throttles them   and that would never do because TFC would be tres upset and give her an infarction.


Tootle pips peeps


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## Spudlet (3 June 2011)

You don't have to smack a horse (or a dog) to establish boundaries. 

Nor do you have to watch people all day, you just need to find decent, trustworthy people who give a rats ass about the things you care about and therefore make efforts to keep them safe.


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## cptrayes (3 June 2011)

queenbee said:



			Quote:
Originally Posted by Spudlet  
Then put a spring onto the door so it self closes. Like this one: http://www.handles4doors.co.uk/Ironm...={keyword}

£2.99 and a bit of time with a screwdriver, and your feed protected from ponies, rain blowing in etc. Lateral thinking. 






bring on the *head-desk* smiley or even the shotgun one.

Cptrayes you are off the wall bonkers, are you for real?  THIS HAS TO BE A WIND UP!!!





please tell me it's a wind up
		
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Are you aware that it is not safe to work in a closed room full of batteries full of sulphuric acid and a mass of electrical equipment?   I'd rather train my pony to stay out of that room than have my OH trapped in it and hurt himself. 

You guys live such narrow lives you seem to think the world should stop because someone kicks a pony!


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## Damnation (3 June 2011)

There are boundries and then there is a bit OTT boundries.
To me a boundry would be closing the door, why do you think people have those childproof lock thingys on cupboard doors, and on medication.. So children can't just wander along and eat them! Like a stable door does to a horse, they can't just wander along and eat everything!!!!!
I have caught loose horses in the feed room before.. never once did I punish them. I either swore at myself for leaving the door open, or had a quick word with whoever did so it doesn't happen again..


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## cptrayes (3 June 2011)

queenbee said:



			Then SHOOT HIM!
		
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Gosh, hadn't thought of that one, might try it if only I could persuade him to take out some life insurance. Thanks for the tip.


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## cptrayes (3 June 2011)

Damnation said:



			, or had a quick word with whoever did so it doesn't happen again..
		
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You surely don't think that's in any way foolproof?  Or that I haven't had more than "a quick word" with him? 

Luckily, what I  HAVE done is condition the pony to stay out of the feed store for long enough for me to catch the door open and do something about it.


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## Damnation (3 June 2011)

Then he should not be allowed on the yard unsupervised if he is so prone to leaving stable doors open.
Sorry but that is my opinion. If he is incapable of closing a stable door adequately I would seriously question his safety around horses.
Closing a door is a very small and important part of owning a horse..

ETA: What if your pony bypassed the feed room one day and ended up on the road somewhere..


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## Lady La La (3 June 2011)

cptrayes said:



			You surely don't think that's in any way foolproof?  Or that I haven't had more than "a quick word" with him?
		
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Is beating him up really 'foolproof' though? If he's anything like the shetlands I've owned over the years (and Im guessing you're going to tell me he isn't  ) ..he'll creep closer and closer, pushing his luck more and more each time in the persuit of food until he's eventually back inside, munching his head off out of the 500 random bags of opened unsoaked sugardbeet you apparently keep in your feed store... and there'll be no one around to beat the living daylights out of him this time.
Put a lock on it. Dont give your OH the key. Do what you have to do, just dont beat your pony up for doing, essentially, nothing wrong..


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## Damnation (3 June 2011)

Or put your feed in lockable bins


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## suzi (3 June 2011)

I have walloped my horse and would again if I felt the circumstances warrented it.

My current horse can be very nappy and a bit of a sod.  We are working and his manners are improving but he's still not overly respectful at times.

I carry a whip out hacking (he has a habit of whipping round and p***ing off in the opposite direction.  If we are somewhere where it is safe for me to deal with his behaviour without smcking him then I will if (like we were the other day) we were heading backwards for a mahoosive ditch then he gets a wallop.  I use this to get him far enough away from the ditch / lorry etc to be out of danger before carrying on calmly.  I've needed to do this three times since I've had him, twice in the first week and once the other day (ditch).  He's napping less and less as we go on but I like to have the back up.

I don't carry one for schooling as he doesn't need it.


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## aimeetb (3 June 2011)

Can I just say, I am really angry now! So angry I am going to type in CAPITALS!

I HAVE TYPED 3 PERFECTLY GOOD RESPONSES TO THIS THREAD AND NO-ONE HAS QUOTED ME AND NOW THE SHETLAND ARGUMENT HAS TAKEN OVER MY POSTS HAVE BEEN LEFT BEHIND! NOT IMPRESSED! 

I AM NOW GOING TO TURN OFF MY COMPUTER AND STOMP OFF IN A PROPER HUFF!


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## Damnation (3 June 2011)

Bye then! 

P.s Its only a forum.. I get ignored all the time, its life!


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## Fellewell (3 June 2011)

cptrayes said:



			If people are stupid enough to hit a horse for something it hasn't done or hasn't understood then they deserve what they get, even if the horse doesn't.

I doubt that you are right about Andy's horses because horses are flight animals and anything threatening and unusual will cause most horses to run.

Of course if you use  a whip in the course of training, it is not random and the horse does understand, provided you have your timing right, that he is not to repeat the behaviour which has been punished. To say, as some people have, that   a horse cannot learn from being hit is total and utter nonsense. It learns to avoid the behaviour it was doing immediately before, or while, it was hit.
		
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That's just it though, to his horses Andy is neither threatening nor unusual (I'm not his mother by the way) and it is possible to wave a whip at a pony who isn't used to them and get little more than a blank look.
I agree with your other comments but I'm not sure you do. But then why would anyone want a shetland in the first place


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## Wagtail (3 June 2011)

aimeetb said:



			Can I just say, I am really angry now! So angry I am going to type in CAPITALS!

I HAVE TYPED 3 PERFECTLY GOOD RESPONSES TO THIS THREAD AND NO-ONE HAS QUOTED ME AND NOW THE SHETLAND ARGUMENT HAS TAKEN OVER MY POSTS HAVE BEEN LEFT BEHIND! NOT IMPRESSED! 

I AM NOW GOING TO TURN OFF MY COMPUTER AND STOMP OFF IN A PROPER HUFF!
		
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LMAO


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## cptrayes (3 June 2011)

I agree Aimeetb, the Shetland's had too much attention from people who don't bother to read posts about why none of their bright ideas will work. Of course what I did is not foolproof, but it's worked so far and I hope it won't be needed again, but if it is it will buy me some minutes to get things safe again.

NOw, someone answer Aimeetb will you  ??


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## Kelly Marks (3 June 2011)

LOL Aimietb!  Did you write anything sensible?!


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## Lady La La (3 June 2011)

cptrayes said:



			I agree Aimeetb, the Shetland's had too much attention from people who don't bother to read posts about why none of their bright ideas will work. Of course what I did is not foolproof, but it's worked so far and I hope it won't be needed again, but if it is it will buy me some minutes to get things safe again.

NOw, someone answer Aimeetb will you  ??
		
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I can actually imagine it now...

 I have a rather funny imagine in my head of a little shetland pony creeping around a stable yard (to the theme of Pink Panther) totally unaware that.. as he edges ever closer to scrumptious 500 bags of unsoaked sugarbeet and that illusive open door.. you are hiding, crouched down behind a bag of food, sweating and brandishing a rolling pin.

..thats made my weekend 

Now, If you'll all excuse me, I have a dog to beat up. He's bound to do something wrong at somepoint this evening so I'll just batter him now and get the telling off over and done with.

Ciao


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## much-jittering (3 June 2011)

I said a few pages back that there was nobody on the thread I wouldn't send a horse to because it'd get beaten up, I think I've found one that I wouldn't send one to because they seem a bit nuts 

Seriously, how hard is to close a door? If people do struggle to close a door, then don't have a free range pony. Both of these seem quite reasonable solutions  Why a National Park means you can't buy a feed bin I have literally no idea.

Your first post, booting the pony the arse to get it's head out of dry sugar beet - fair enough, saving the pony from itself, no doubt didn't have a headcollar on or something to grab and tug - so boot it before it eats enough to make itself ill. All susequent posts suggesting that was actually a conditioning process to make the feed room a place he doesn't want to be just makes you sound crackers


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## Tormenta (3 June 2011)

Lady La La said:



			Shouting at my shetland, and kicking him on his arse would do bob all to keep him away from food...

However it would probably do rather a lot to make him develope a rather strong fear/disslike for me. Not something I plan on doing anytime soon. I like that my animals like me. 
I also like that I'm capable of making sure all the doors on my yard are closed as and when they should be. 

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I'm afraid that I am guilty of being a Shetland butt kicker too. Almost four years ago this 10hh Shetland mare who had been hand reared and let off with murder most of her life (18 years old) then came into my life. She was a little S**t and I am being kind with my phrasing. I was ready to get rid after 5 weeks but decided I wasn't going to back down and be beat. Cue another one of her sessions where she decided to try and tell me who I could or couldn't lead in from the field. She charged, spun and raised two hind feet at me while I was leading in another horse just missing my face, my left leg then inadvertently left the ground and caught her clean on the arse. She took off a few strides and then turned to looked at me with a face that I can only say was riddled with sweet surprise. She has never tried it since and has never had a hand (or leg) lifted to her since. All she needed was someone to stop being scared of her and stand up to her. She is, by the way, lovely now even around children   I don't think I was cruel and she certainly didn't hate me for it because she follows me everywhere  Oh and if say 'BACK' now, she does it, food or no food.


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## mymare (3 June 2011)

Tell him to shut the door behind him ffs!! It's not rocket science.


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## siennamum (3 June 2011)

My brother has a highly intelligent and well trained spaniel who will insist on stealing food. My brother beats it and terrifies it and the dog, who adores my brother is scared to death of it's punishment but simply cannot stop itself from eating the food. It is a behaviour it can't control. How a shetland is supposed to make this connection is beyond me.

The solution is simply to remove food from it's reach. To do otherwise is just cruel and unneccesary. If you had a partner who continually left the front door/gate open allowing animals onto the road, would you beat them then - or ditch the wan**r.

I will hit animals, although I woudn't hit an animal which was trying to kill me, I would vacate the area.

I will use a smack to reinforce a message which is being ignored. Maybe the message could be conveyed more effectively, I'm not too concerned, the horse gets the message immediately and I have well behaved animals. I am also somewhat suprised at how many vicious animals people have encountered. I've had 40/50 horses & ponies and my current one is the first to be threatening.


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## darkhorse123 (3 June 2011)

siennamum said:



			My brother has a highly intelligent and well trained spaniel who will insist on stealing food. My brother beats it and terrifies it and the dog, who adores my brother is scared to death of it's punishment but simply cannot stop itself from eating the food. It is a behaviour it can't control. How a shetland is supposed to make this connection is beyond me.

The solution is simply to remove food from it's reach. To do otherwise is just cruel and unneccesary. If you had a partner who continually left the front door/gate open allowing animals onto the road, would you beat them then - or ditch the wan**r.

I will hit animals, although I woudn't hit an animal which was trying to kill me, I would vacate the area.

I will use a smack to reinforce a message which is being ignored. Maybe the message could be conveyed more effectively, I'm not too concerned, the horse gets the message immediately and I have well behaved animals. I am also somewhat suprised at how many vicious animals people have encountered. I've had 40/50 horses & ponies and my current one is the first to be threatening.
		
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omg poor dog - is it genuineley hungry - why doesnt your brother keep food away from it so it cant steal it??? Your brother terrorises it and you know???? Tell your brother to keep the food out of reach, feed the poor thing and if this fails report him!!!!
Poor poor dog


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## Amaranta (3 June 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			I love this forum, for a horse forum where people are supposed to like or even love horses here people are lining up to brag to one another about hitting their horses with whips and how good it is for the horse. One or two including their dogs and children among their hapless victims.
Why do some people miss the point and focus on completely the wrong thing. No wonder there are so many confused horses out there.
The horse that was looking for sandwiches wasn't dangerous, it was looking for food. People mistook his intentions. When I found out what was going on the horse had to be moved,not punished. Some people rewarded his interest in them by feeding him others were terrified by him, he didn't know which monkey was which. I don't need a piece of anyone's mind over that, and they can take their fleas with them.
People backing their horses into cars all over the place, nothing but a whip to save their life.
And what about the professional horse, he gets a crack because being a professional should know better.

You really couldn't make some of it up, fantastic.
		
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This has to be one of the most sanctimonious posts I have ever read.

Again and again you do the Parelli thing and blame people for 'not understanding' that the horse was simply looking for sandwiches, you knew that but the people he mugged did not and you are responsible for that because you allowed it to happen.  My horses would never in a million years be allowed to terrify people the way yours has, I consider this to be bad manners, but not the poor horse's fault, yours and yours alone.

It is hugely interesting that you castigate people on this thread for 'using violence' when you defended the Parelli's when they used a kind of violence which was far greater than a short, sharp smack.

It must be truly wonderful having your 'vast experience', but I find it such a shame that you have stopped learning because you think you already know it all, a true horseman never ever stops learning.


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## Tnavas (3 June 2011)

queenbee said:



			But, horses, humans, dogs they all have individual natures and need individual handling, there is no 'one template for all situations'  My mare ebony couldn't take it if you hit her, but if my younster tries any cr ap, he could deal with a clout if warrented.

1. Never repremand in anger

2. Learn to read the individual (horse, dog or human)

3. Learn to read situations and 

4. react quickly and appropriately to the situation and the individual

5. Accept responsibility, don't just blame your animals
		
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Excellent advice


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## mystiandsunny (3 June 2011)

Just wanted to add to all the 'my way is the highway because...' posts, the reactions of our pony to the concept of being hit by a human as punishment.  Read the whole thing before you comment, if you do lol.  

She bit, and kicked, and would spin and kick her handler in the ribs to get them to drop the lead rope to get them to let go so she could bog off and eat grass.  She kicked a full grown man hard enough in the ribs that the breath was knocked out of him and he fell to the ground, so safe?  No.  Safe to lead with other horses?  No.  She'd do the same to them.  

So my horse and I, between us, civilised her.  Minimal violence, maximum threat.  First we dealt with her kicking my horse as I led them both - as she went for her, we'd BOTH spin on her, threaten to bite/kick (on her part) or hit (on mine) several hells out of her, but threaten only, like in the herd.  Within a day or two she'd stopped.  Then she started trying to bit me as I led them.  Here my horse helped me out - as the pony stretched her neck forward to bite me, my horse would go for her, teeth bared, and I'd spin round, hand raised.  A few days later that was a distant memory too.  The biting when tied up had the same behaviour from me, plus the odd tap on the nose if the first warning didn't work.  Not once did she become headshy or scared of me or my horse.  She was always given fair warning, so she knew what we didn't like, and the actual hit, if the warning was ignored, was a sting and no more.  Kicking out was treated similarly.  Threat, then if she ignored the threat, sting with bare hand.  Both behaviours were eradicated quickly and as we asserted our authority, being kind in all ways, threatening before any actual punishment so she'd know what was going on, she came to trust and to be affectionate and truly relaxed.

Many years later, we were on a yard where a young girl tended to lose her temper with her horse.  On two occasions my pony obviously appealed to me to stop this, with her eyes and body language, being visibly upset by what was going on.  On both those occasions the girl had lost her temper completely, and was taking out her bad day on her horse.  She was asking unreasonable requests of it, and then hitting it profusely when it could not comply.  There was no warning, the horse's eyes were wide and white, and it was visibly scared.  I don't think I will forget either of those scenes in a hurry either.  On one of them, we were in the arena with her, and my pony became increasingly edgy and scared, and when I took her away, after the other girl wouldn't see reason, she just stood and buried her head in my arms for reassurance.

From a horse's point of view, the threat of violence in the herd is everyday.  Actual violence is not, and is only issued by a sane individual if the clear warning has been ignored.  The violence that actually arrives even then, is usually minimal.  A similar reaction from humans they can understand, but violence without warning related to a specific behaviour, they do not.  I would hope also, that if you would never give a stinging slap if a horse has not responded to warnings and is about to bite/kick you, that you only use the lightest of aids when riding.  A kick or a harsh use of the spur is far worse than that!


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## La Fiaba (3 June 2011)

Quick Q (although it will probably get lost due to crazy shetland training antics) - those who are against smacking horses or husbands, do you or would you use electric fencing?


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## Tnavas (3 June 2011)

queenbee said:



			1 beat the cr ap out of the human who was negligent enough to leave the door open, not the animal with the FAR smaller brain and FAR less reasoning power!!!!

2.  Put your sodding hand in your pocket and invest in a self closing hinge for the door since you and you're OH do not have brains that work.

3. Better still don't own a horse

I seriously hope you are joking, a smack for dangerous bolshy behaviour or to prevent an escilating situation (snap the horse out of it to save any injury) or to counter aggressive and again dangerous behaviour if ok in my opinion.

but this attitude of yours is quite barbaric 

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Excellent answer - just had the same thing in my head waiting to be typed after eading through the rest of the posts.

I have one of those springy gate things on my garden gate so that there is no risk of the gate being left open and the dogs getting out.


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## Megibo (3 June 2011)

i've never walloped any horse...

i've a welsh D that can be very very bolshy at times and shes reprimanded appropriately.

once when she constantly pulled free and barged when i was leading her so i dug my elbow into her shoulder and smacked her twice with the leadrope. she didnt repeat the behaviour.
once she ran me over and got the same treatment-she's not done it since.
she hasnt bitten me for a while cause shes knows if she does i'll bite her on the ear.
she used to try and barge me for the field bowl so i smacked her on the shoulder with a schooling whip and again shes not repeated the behaviour. she followed me from the stable block to field with me holdin her bucket and even tho she really wanted it she kept out of my personal space and when she tried to come infront of me and i growled at her she backed right out.
i carry a whip when jumping as without warning she may decide to try an take the p*ss and i also sometimes carry one on a hack because she may nap. if she does nap, then she gets a smack on the arse. once i didnt have a whip and she napped when i asked her to go in the school, so i smacked her with my hand and she walked in no problem. 

before anyone says anything, i've had her six years and never beaten her up ever. as a result of these actions i described she respects me and my space but shes most certainly not scared of me and we've a very good bond. some other people who have met just cannot get on with her because they wont reprimand her when shes naughty and so she takes the absolute p*ss out of them. as it is, and as i've said, she has a healthy respect of me my sister and my mum cause she knows we wont take any misbehaviour from her and she's a very happy horse for it-we get along great. 
i wouldnt treat another horse in that way before getting to know them as an individual. some horses don't need to be reprimanded in the way my horse was-but it's now VERY rarely she will act up as we acted accordingly when she did and shes a well mannered individual now.
i'd never hit my sisters horse and he doesnt need it as he's very voice sensitive-if he trots at you with his ears back and you growl at him he'll go the other way. 
they're all different. i'd never hit a young horse as at their age (most cases i believe) you can teach them in such a way they never need to be smacked or seriously reprimanded.
none of our horses are scared of us for it-and mostly if we threaten "violence" theres no need to go any further as they accept if they carry on the behavior they will be dealt with


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## dressagelove (3 June 2011)

yep i do, there is nothing wrong with it and people who preach that they don't / think its cruel are daft in my opinion. They are big strong horses, a good smack wont hurt them, half the time they wont even feel it! 

I use a smack as a training aid and it really works. not bothered if people disagree with me, i am experienced and know what does and doesnt work. for example i would never hit a horse that was nervous / shy / young. but older horses who really do know better and are just being downright naughty need a telling off!


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## ljpinkhorse (3 June 2011)

My share horse was being naughty the other day , basically when i went to pick up his feet he would throw them around etc , nearly got me a few times! And he is BIG , he's a heavy horse so his feet at plate sized , and he's shod so him mucking around could lead to serious damage ! So with owners permission ( She was there and saw what was happening ) I whacked him on the shoulder. Also if he barges or doesn't respect my space while being handled he'll get a push , or if that fails a little smack.

Otherwise , when riding I always carry a crop and adopt a squeeze , kick , pony club kick/smack on the butt approach. If he starts napping he generally gets big kicks and a few smacks as he knows its naughty and I don't want it becoming a habit. If we're on the road and he starts playing up he'll get a smack on the butt as well because it's extra important for the safety of the drivers / us that he's under control. If he is being silly because he has spooked then I don't whip him obviously because that would just make things worse but if he's trying it on then you cant let him win.

The bottom line is the horse needs to know that the rider is in control for the safety of everyone involved and if that means he gets a smack when he's playing up and trying to see how much he can get away with then so be it.


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## Tnavas (3 June 2011)

I don't think anyone on here LIKES to hit a horse but some of us have dealt with far more than your average well behaved horse. They are not gloaating over the way they have dealt with a horse as someone stated earlier - but giving examples of situations where they have had to use a stick to back up their instruction.

There are times when a quick sharp slap with whip or hand will avert a possible damgerous situation or back up an instruction given resulting in reinforcing the correct response.

You cannot reason with a horse or explain why you want him to do something. All you can do is aim for the right response to your request - learned good habit. Once the good habit/response is learned then great  - however bad habits/response are learned in exactly the same way usually the result of a rider/handler who is not positive in their instructions to the horse who then says - you are lower down the pecking order than me. eg Novice/nervous owner.


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## amandap (3 June 2011)

Spudlet said:



			Then put a spring onto the door so it self closes. Like this one: http://www.handles4doors.co.uk/Iron...ng&utm_campaign=googlebase&utm_term={keyword}

£2.99 and a bit of time with a screwdriver, and your feed protected from ponies, rain blowing in etc. Lateral thinking.
		
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Fantastic solution.  ...and so easy.


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## much-jittering (3 June 2011)

mystiandsunny said:



			From a horse's point of view, the threat of violence in the herd is everyday.  Actual violence is not, and is only issued by a sane individual if the clear warning has been ignored.  The violence that actually arrives even then, is usually minimal.  A similar reaction from humans they can understand, but violence without warning related to a specific behaviour, they do not.  I would hope also, that if you would never give a stinging slap if a horse has not responded to warnings and is about to bite/kick you, that you only use the lightest of aids when riding.  A kick or a harsh use of the spur is far worse than that!
		
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Ditto this ^

That is why the example of somebody walloping their horse on the bum to get out the way of a lorry when it has just refused to listen to 'quieter' aids (or any of the other examples given by sensible people on here), is totally different from the example of somebody leaving the arena at a competition after a bad time and then belting the horse when they are in the lorry park. Unfortunately I think that some people are thinking that those who have said 'yes I would' would do both of the above, whereas I'm sure 95% of people on this thread wouldn't dream of doing the latter as they know it'll achieve nothing.


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## darkhorse123 (3 June 2011)

Evelyn said:



			I don't think anyone on here LIKES to hit a horse but some of us have dealt with far more than your average well behaved horse. They are not gloaating over the way they have dealt with a horse as someone stated earlier - but giving examples of situations where they have had to use a stick to back up their instruction.

There are times when a quick sharp slap with whip or hand will avert a possible damgerous situation or back up an instruction given resulting in reinforcing the correct response.

You cannot reason with a horse or explain why you want him to do something. All you can do is aim for the right response to your request - learned good habit. Once the good habit/response is learned then great  - however bad habits/response are learned in exactly the same way usually the result of a rider/handler who is not positive in their instructions to the horse who then says - you are lower down the pecking order than me. eg Novice/nervous owner.
		
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 iagree with this but what about those who do hit their horses after the event so the hors ehas no connection? To me that is temper and is wrong, i will slap my horses shoudler when hes beign horrid but for example a pony drags his owner around, gets loose - then is caught and beaten???? 
No connection so wrong


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## skewby (3 June 2011)

IHK said:



			I find it surprising as well so many horses owned by H & H forum members (as well as biting and attacking) appear to want to throw themselves in front of lorries.  I would have thought that would be fairly unusual.
		
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That's a very gross exaggeration.  However point taken.  Perhaps H&H forum members encounter more dangers on horseback because we ride our horses, rather than stay in a school doing "groundwork"?

Surely what matters is, that post-smack these members' horses have gone on to useful ridden careers?  Would your opinion be otherwise, had they used a "whip-***"?

Surprising to me as I would have thought you would have encountered far more difficult animals than anyone has described here.  Or would such animals be "vetted out" for demos?

Would be interesting to hear what you advocate doing in the situations described, rather than just condemning HHO users as a bunch.

ETA so sorry, just realised what a ridiculous question I posted - of course you won't do that.  We would need to PAY for that!  Apologies.  I hope you recruit though.


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## skewby (3 June 2011)

IHK said:



			Obviously these horses would have been got used to traffic before being ridden out on the roads and, of course, they would be schooled to the basic aids.  Isn't it easier and safer to do a shoulder in towards the traffic rather than hit them which would raise their adrenalin and make the situation more dangerous?
		
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Do your horses always remember the "basic aids" in terror?


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## Tormenta (3 June 2011)

A horse (or any animal) should never be hit out of temper IMO because then any sort of reprimand is completely lost in a cloud of misunderstanding and misjudgement. Trust is lost and and no lesson learned.


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## teagreen (3 June 2011)

I'll give a horse a damn good smack any day of the week if the situation warrants it. I would never hit a horse without a good reason, and I would never give a horse a sustained beating, but plenty of mine have hard a good smacking for being rude or naughty and they show absolutely NO ill effects from this whatsoever, the only effect they show is increased respect for me. They are large, dangerous animals who can be very clever and try to take chances, and I'm afraid I will put my safety first every single time.

If there is a reason for my horse acting up, I will naturally try to resolve it without the use of the whip. If, for example, they refuse because they are scared of the fillers, I'll work slowly to help them get over this fear, or if they won't cross a stream out hacking, I'll take my time to help them through it. But if they decide they are coming out of the stable door regardless of who is standing in front of it, they will get shouted at and a sharp smack. And then they don't do it again. If they are napping dangerously, they will get a good few reminders about who is boss and why you have to go forward for both my safety and your own.

I met a woman not so long ago who hated the whip, however was happy to thump her horse in the sides for an hour in the school. I think there is little worse than watching someone repeatedly thump their animal in the sides with their heels. Also, I've seen jockeys/showjumpers/eventers give their horse what could be described as a 'good wallop' on the approach to a fence so they get the right stride and don't turn a somersault; no one seems to have a problem with that because it's done for safety purposes.


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## darkhorse123 (3 June 2011)

Tormenta said:



			A horse (or any animal) should never be hit out of temper IMO because then any sort of reprimand is completely lost in a cloud of misunderstanding and misjudgement. Trust is lost and and no lesson learned.
		
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i so agree with with this - my boy is very verbal and knows a verbal ah - ah  - ah - if he continues he gets a slap, with my hand on his shoulder. 
When he does what i want he gets a "good boy" - he loves his "good boys" and it works
I would never reprimand him after an event - its when he does it or it is pointless and temper - not good and no point
My boy is funny havign his back feet picked out - he used ot try and kick me. When he kicked he got a slap (by hand) on his shoulder and a sharp no
When he let me do he got a stroke and a "good boy" - he loves his "good boys" and i can now pick his feet anywhere - he gets a tickle afterwards and loves it, he also loves it when i praise him while im doing his feet  - ok i sound daft but who cares lol


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## Wobblywibble (3 June 2011)

Enfys said:








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So what would you do if it was a person on the floor in this situation instead of another horse??  This happened to a friend when we were out on a long ride and  untacked the ponies so we could go for a swim. When we saddled up again, hers went for her as she was doing up the girth.  Very scary and it took A LOT of beating before he let go.


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## Onyxia (3 June 2011)

babymare said:



			sorry my mare was a mess from being walloped  battered and beatened - i never raise a hand or voice to my 2 - my little mare esp knows from my boby language and " ah ah ah " when she is stepping over line - both are well mannered - open door of stable and will standquiet till told to walk on - but sorry there is no excuse to hit a horse even a biter - 2 wrongs dont make a right - seen the results of hiting a horse to often with happa and nope never a reason or excuse - think horse and work as a horse - michael peace is my hero  xx
		
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At the other end of the spectrum are the horses who have been allowed to get away with everything because their owner did not give them a wallop when need who are a danger to themselves and eveyone around them- have been involved with three like that(free/meat money horses for VERY good reason) who were lovely animals once a few hard lessons had been learned 

18HH of horse with no respect for humans is NOT a good thing to be around and will only end up one way....


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## tallyho! (3 June 2011)

C'mon guys.. no-one here is talking about beating a horse as in a proper cruel BEATING!!!

I honestly think a thwack with a whip or a slap handed out by most of us flimsy-whimsies on here isn't going to break a horses neck, or it's bone or skin.

Honestly, you're all being quite cruel to each other on here and ENFYS it's ALL your fault.


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## tallyho! (3 June 2011)

Lady La La said:



			I can actually imagine it now...

 I have a rather funny imagine in my head of a little shetland pony creeping around a stable yard (to the theme of Pink Panther) totally unaware that.. as he edges ever closer to scrumptious 500 bags of unsoaked sugarbeet and that illusive open door.. you are hiding, crouched down behind a bag of food, sweating and brandishing a rolling pin.

..thats made my weekend 

Now, If you'll all excuse me, I have a dog to beat up. He's bound to do something wrong at somepoint this evening so I'll just batter him now and get the telling off over and done with.

Ciao 

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Whoa - who's got PMT this week???

cptrayes is talking about something rather minor so wind your neck in abit -it might not hurt as much then.


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## darkhorse123 (3 June 2011)

Wobblywibble said:



			So what would you do if it was a person on the floor in this situation instead of another horse??  This happened to a friend when we were out on a long ride and  untacked the ponies so we could go for a swim. When we saddled up again, hers went for her as she was doing up the girth.  Very scary and it took A LOT of beating before he let go.
		
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Im my opinion there is something very very wrong with that horse - he needs intensive trainign from a sympathetic trainer - that behaviour is not normal!


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## tallyho! (3 June 2011)

darkhorse123 said:



			Im my opinion there is something very very wrong with that horse - he needs intensive trainign from a sympathetic trainer - that behaviour is not normal!
		
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Whatever!!! Horses have a mind of thier own - ANY horse can snap and attack. They are prey animals which lots of people forget and think of them as our fluffy best friends. 

They can get defensive and KILL if they really bloody wanted to.


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## Queenbee (3 June 2011)

I am in no means generalising when I say this but I wonder how many of the 'never people' have only ever owned 'foot perfect, been there done it got the t-shirt' horses and what percentage of the people who would hit a horse are the ones that have produced these 'foot perfect' horses to begin with.

On the other hand, there are also those who are in the 'never' club and end up not being able to cope and sending their horse to those in the 'sometimes yes' camp to be sorted out!

Finally there are those like andyspooner who say they are anti violence and would never hit a horse, yet they see absolutely no problem with whacking it around the face with the metal part of a leadrope or a stick, which is apparently ok because it is called a effing carrot stick and PP says its ok (WTF?!) So this is not barbaric, but hitting a horse who is being a git/dangerous/agreessive is?

I repeat, my mare was an off the wall flighty nervous (never been beaten in her life) thing when I got her and she has never had a hit for anything, the method would have put her and handler in more danger and she would not have learnt anything.

My 2 year old youngster is a stupid (never been beaten) thick as pig s hit plank and incredibly thick skinned, I have no qualms with using a well timed smack with him if needs be, this is not often, but I will not have anyone put in danger, and I will not have a rude bad mannered horse, he is anything but scared of me, if he lifts his leg at me, I smack it with the palm of my hand, if he tries to bite me when he is tired then quite frankly I don't give a monkeys nuts if he is tired, I will not be bitten and he will have an immediate smack on the neck and a growl, he is much better with the biting now and will only do it if utterly bored and tired out I (ie after his first bath the other week)  But believe me, if he tries to kick me or behaves in a threatening way in the field I will boot him one back and I will not feel guilty for it.  And as important as ever is positive reinforcement and praise for everything he gets right


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## Enfys (3 June 2011)

tallyho! said:



			Honestly, you're all being quite cruel to each other on here and ENFYS it's ALL your fault.
		
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 and I only asked a little question! Actually it was related to the rope halter versus dually debate.

This has got a bit Topsy-ish, but has been very interesting, and hasn't descended into downright abuse. Just goes to show what a vast range of people there are on here.


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## Enfys (3 June 2011)

darkhorse123 said:



			Im my opinion there is something very very wrong with that horse - he needs intensive trainign from a sympathetic trainer - that behaviour is not normal!
		
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Bang.

Comment deleted, because it would probably start another long debate.


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## Flame_ (3 June 2011)

OMFG at CPTrayes. Seriously? Have I missed something or was she genuinely saying she batters her loose shetland for going into an open feed room? 

I've read some pretty barking stuff on here but this one is definitely for the win.


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## tallyho! (3 June 2011)

Enfys said:



			Bang.

Comment deleted, because it would probably start another long debate.
		
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yarp... I think I did the same....

Simple questions are usually the best 

but flippin 'eck - some comments were high & mighty indeed - makes you wonder what planet some people come from... they need a slap


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## tallyho! (3 June 2011)

Flame_ said:



			OMFG at CPTrayes. Seriously? Have I missed something or was she genuinely saying she batters her loose shetland for going into an open feed room? 

I've read some pretty barking stuff on here but this one is definitely for the win.
		
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Umm no, come on! I think thats what someone boiled it down to surprise surprise...


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## tallyho! (3 June 2011)

queenbee said:



			I am in no means generalising when I say this but I wonder how many of the 'never people' have only ever owned 'foot perfect, been there done it got the t-shirt' horses and what percentage of the people who would hit a horse are the ones that have produced these 'foot perfect' horses to begin with.

On the other hand, there are also those who are in the 'never' club and end up not being able to cope and sending their horse to those in the 'sometimes yes' camp to be sorted out!

Finally there are those like andyspooner who say they are anti violence and would never hit a horse, yet they see absolutely no problem with whacking it around the face with the metal part of a leadrope or a stick, which is apparently ok because it is called a effing carrot stick and PP says its ok (WTF?!) So this is not barbaric, but hitting a horse who is being a git/dangerous/agreessive is?

I repeat, my mare was an off the wall flighty nervous (never been beaten in her life) thing when I got her and she has never had a hit for anything, the method would have put her and handler in more danger and she would not have learnt anything.

My 2 year old youngster is a stupid (never been beaten) thick as pig s hit plank and incredibly thick skinned, I have no qualms with using a well timed smack with him if needs be, this is not often, but I will not have anyone put in danger, and I will not have a rude bad mannered horse, he is anything but scared of me, if he lifts his leg at me, I smack it with the palm of my hand, if he tries to bite me when he is tired then quite frankly I don't give a monkeys nuts if he is tired, I will not be bitten and he will have an immediate smack on the neck and a growl, he is much better with the biting now and will only do it if utterly bored and tired out I (ie after his first bath the other week)  But believe me, if he tries to kick me or behaves in a threatening way in the field I will boot him one back and I will not feel guilty for it.  And as important as ever is positive reinforcement and praise for everything he gets right 

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There ya go, some sense.


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## Queenbee (3 June 2011)

tallyho! said:



			There ya go, some sense.
		
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Than you


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## Lady La La (3 June 2011)

Tallyho, my comment in which you quoted was clearly (I thought) meant as a lighthearted joke. I dont really think she hides behind bins and batters her pony with rolling pins...
Apologies for being unable to requote it - iphone dictates that I cant, for whatever reason.

If you have a little read back, you'll see I've got nothing against a well deserved smack in order to get horse and or rider out of trouble... but hitting a lose shetland for wondering into an OPEN feed shed as a 
PREVENTATIVE method to stop him killing himself on unsoaked beet? Its ridiculous. Just shut the door? Surely?
I dont think i'I've 'boiled it down' to anything other than what it is - mental. 
.. Up until that point I'd agreed with most of what she'd said 

Also... Not entirely sure as to why you're enquiring about my menstrual cycle - but no, as it goes, I'm not on my period right now


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## Queenbee (3 June 2011)

Dear Forum users please don't escilate and get nasty and dear TFC  if they do please don't pull the thread.  Unlike some on here  I have been quoted loads and am feeling very important and want to get up tomorrow and carry on reading the thread.  So please play nice because I am off to bed now.

Ta very muchley  

Em AKA God 


P.S. the never people will be pleased to hear that ben was good today and only received praise and no brutality, Eb's on the other hand was hot and bothered and stood in the corner of her field well away from me because she didn't want to do exercise in the heat so both horses remained unbeaten tonight  


Night all


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## Queenbee (3 June 2011)

Lady La La said:



			Also... Not entirely sure as to why you're enquiring about my menstrual cycle - but no, as it goes, I'm not on my period right now 

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couldn't go to bed without saying PMSL at this ^^


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## smiffyimp (3 June 2011)

showqa said:



			I did this when I was riding my 5 year old along the usual route and he decided he'd go sideways. Put my leg on to move him back over and he was totally ignoring it - and I could see a very nasty and deep ditch that any minute now we were going to disappear down. Yes - he had a real, sharp whack and was told to move forwards not sidewards - which he did and a bad accident was averted. He's 7 now and never had a repeat performance, I'm glad to say.
		
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Yes in this kind of circumstance. But TBH this is probably the worst ive ever had to deal with and a good slap sorted it. Ive never been 'attacked' thankfully but I'm sure I would do what needed to be done at the time - survival!


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## tallyho! (3 June 2011)

Lady La La said:



			Tallyho, my comment in which you quoted was clearly (I thought) meant as a lighthearted joke. I dont really think she hides behind bins and batters her pony with rolling pins...
Apologies for being unable to requote it - iphone dictates that I cant, for whatever reason.

If you have a little read back, you'll see I've got nothing against a well deserved smack in order to get horse and or rider out of trouble... but hitting a lose shetland for wondering into an OPEN feed shed as a 
PREVENTATIVE method to stop him killing himself on unsoaked beet? Its ridiculous. Just shut the door? Surely?
I dont think i'I've 'boiled it down' to anything other than what it is - mental. 
.. Up until that point I'd agreed with most of what she'd said 

Also... Not entirely sure as to why you're enquiring about my menstrual cycle - but no, as it goes, I'm not on my period right now 

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Ok, I shouldn't have referenced menstrual cycles you're right there. Sorry. It could have explained your outrage...

I did think you took it out of context and I'm sure cpt was having a bit of a laugh - I can't imagine her battering ponies tbh, not anyone here. I just think you were rather ott about it and probably didn't need to be quite so umm personal and I think you just wanted to get riled up about something and picked on her.     Unfair imo.    At least that's what it looked like to anyone who could be bothered to read it.

Anyway, nuff said. I'm just defending the pragmatics (i.e. the slappers) on here and if you are one then great and I can sort of see your point but then it just got too far and quite sour...


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## Tormenta (3 June 2011)

tallyho! said:



			Whatever!!! Horses have a mind of thier own - ANY horse can snap and attack. They are prey animals which lots of people forget and think of them as our fluffy best friends. 

They can get defensive and KILL if they really bloody wanted to.
		
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I actually agree with Darkhorse to an extent. I don't think she/he was trying to be fluffy/pink/soft whatever. I do not think it is part of the norm for a horse to be extremely aggressive. There has to be past circumstance/triggers/defence etc. 

If a horse shows that extent of aggression, then they do actually have a problem be it towards geldings/mares/stallions/foals/people. The situation should then be assessed and outcome decided upon.

I once walked into a stable with a horse because I was up helping my Sister and helping her skip out. She had started at the stalls and when I went to pick up a muck fork further down I saw a lovely gelding (Just my type) and made a start on skipping his stable. Ten minutes later she came down looking for me, took one look and told me to get out. Apparently he was a completely and utter barsteward who would attack people and it took two to muck out. For some reason that day, he kept on munching his haynet even when I asked him to move, when I gave him a clap on the neck and walked round him. He never touched me. I think he sensed I had absolutely no idea of what he was supposed to be. He was blind in one eye and had apparently lost his eye after being hit in the face with a shovel from a previous abusive owner. He was great on the yard and the school with people but not in a confined space. I went to see him quite a few times and he offered me the same respect. I still have his photo, 19 years later.


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## Lady La La (3 June 2011)

In all fairness, I'm not the only who despaired totally at her behaviour...
Yes I have a tendancey to be a bit ott with the sarcasm, but it was never intended to be a personal attack - indeed anyone claiming to wack their horse around in a feed room to make it seem like a 'scary place' would get the very same reaction from me. I dont think I took what she said out of context, and I genuinely do think she's a bit bonkers... but I'll try and conduct myself in a less idiotic manner next time. You have my word


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## tallyho! (3 June 2011)

Tormenta said:



			I actually agree with Darkhorse to an extent. I don't think she/he was trying to be fluffy/pink/soft whatever. I do not think it is part of the norm for a horse to be extremely aggressive. There has to be past circumstance/triggers/defence etc. 

If a horse shows that extent of aggression, then they do actually have a problem be it towards geldings/mares/stallions/foals/people. The situation should then be assessed and outcome decided upon.
		
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Yes but again, out of context. Darkhorse commented on a horse that went mental that was otherwise lovely and was happy to go swimming etc - sounds like a dream horse. Without knowing the history darkhorse said that horse needs help.

Agree, but I'm not gonna stand there and assess what my horse needs whilst it's kicking the **** out of me. I'm going to either defend myself or run away. THEN decide to to either put it down or try again.

MY point was that you can't walk around assessing things methodically when things like that happen, you just react. You cant help it, it's in your very nature. Just like a horse does and you CANNOT control that however well you train a horse. Rather, you need to be walking around remindeing yourself that the horse has free will and could turn and bite you despite giving you a soft whicker that very morning.


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## rubysmum (3 June 2011)

i've obvioulsy had a super bad day [ & no - i am NOT on any menstrual cycle] as i have punched one & hit another with a lead rope
as i weigh 12 stone & the mare weighs in at over 600kg & baby cob at over 500 - i dont think they are physically or emotionally scarred
they both know the rules for leaving a stable/being brought in from the field
& both clearly needed reminding today that *I* choose the speed & way of moving them around the yard
incidentallly, they may not have been scarred but i have some very attractive purple toes now from the barging at the gate incident


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## Enfys (3 June 2011)

tallyho! said:



			Anyway, nuff said. I'm just defending the pragmatics (i.e. the slappers) on here QUOTE]

Oh Good grief! Did you really call some *Slappers*? 

Right then, do you all consider yourself a Slapper, a Petter, a Growler or something else?
		
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## tallyho! (3 June 2011)

Enfys said:





tallyho! said:



			Anyway, nuff said. I'm just defending the pragmatics (i.e. the slappers) on here QUOTE]

Oh Good grief! Did you really call some *Slappers*? 

Right then, do you all consider yourself a Slapper, a Petter, a Growler or something else?
		
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Yes I did!!!  I'm most definitely a happy slapper 

But you've just labeled GROWLER!!! LMFAO!!!! :
		
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## much-jittering (3 June 2011)

Tormenta said:



			I think he sensed I had absolutely no idea of what he was supposed to be
		
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We had a very wild mare in once who to start with we couldn't touch the head end at all - till the day she died she hated with a passion having her nose touched. One day a young girl I taught walked up to where she was being kept and spent five minutes stroking her nose through the fence. We all were gobsmacked, and assumed that it was as you said - there had been no anticipation or anything at all from the girl, she'd just walked over to see if the horse was strokable (they're all used to have babies etc on the yard that might not be that sociable yet) and found it was. It wasn't to anybody else!

Slightly eerie P.S. to that little tale though, mare did have one foal before she died (not out to start a breeding debate), and recently as a yearling said foal was in the same pen with another yearling. For the time they'd been in for their jabs and foot trim etc the above mare's foal had been the more difficult to do, very reluctant to have much to do with anybody etc. Same girl, now not so young and certainly tall enough for a nervous animal to see her as a threat, went over to say hi to them and the reluctant foal was all over her. Must be in the genes.


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## tallyho! (3 June 2011)

much-jittering said:



			We had a very wild mare in once who to start with we couldn't touch the head end at all - till the day she died she hated with a passion having her nose touched. One day a young girl I taught walked up to where she was being kept and spent five minutes stroking her nose through the fence. We all were gobsmacked, and assumed that it was as you said - there had been no anticipation or anything at all from the girl, she'd just walked over to see if the horse was strokable (they're all used to have babies etc on the yard that might not be that sociable yet) and found it was. It wasn't to anybody else!

Slightly eerie P.S. to that little tale though, mare did have one foal before she died (not out to start a breeding debate), and recently as a yearling said foal was in the same pen with another yearling. For the time they'd been in for their jabs and foot trim etc the above mare's foal had been the more difficult to do, very reluctant to have much to do with anybody etc. Same girl, now not so young and certainly tall enough for a nervous animal to see her as a threat, went over to say hi to them and the reluctant foal was all over her. Must be in the genes.
		
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Awwww... bless. That's quite sweet.


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## Enfys (3 June 2011)

tallyho! said:





Enfys said:



			Yes I did!!!  I'm most definitely a happy slapper 

But you've just labeled GROWLER!!! LMFAO!!!! :
		
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ROFLMAO   Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

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## fluffalina (3 June 2011)

Interesting debate - just as many-sided as the smacking children question! 
I tend to side with those who say that the horse is looking for leadership - this is very true and many people just don't give their horses that leadership. They are very sweet and kind, and make sure that he has 20 different kinds of supplement, a rug for every type of weather and they fret and worry about his well being, but they fail to give him confidence. 
Furthermore, they fail to react swiftly to the tiny misdemeanours the horse will display, until these tiny things grow into big things, and become a problem. 

I don't like the idea of actually hitting a horse, just as I don't like the idea of hitting a child BUT if I was in charge of a horse that was bad mannered and bolshy I wouldn't hesitate to get him out of my space, and quick - it's no good trying to negotiate in these situations, you need to react quickly otherwise the horse won't connect the punishment with the crime! I prefer to swash them with something - end of the reins/rope/feed bag whatever is to hand as it is more about making them react than actually inflicting pain. 
I also think that any punishment metered out should be done with a cool head and without getting emotional...


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## DragonSlayer (3 June 2011)

Fook sake....some of you are nuts and need to get your heads out of your asses....

Geez.....


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## cptrayes (3 June 2011)

Lady La La said:



			I can actually imagine it now...

 I have a rather funny imagine in my head of a little shetland pony creeping around a stable yard (to the theme of Pink Panther) totally unaware that.. as he edges ever closer to scrumptious 500 bags of unsoaked sugarbeet and that illusive open door.. you are hiding, crouched down behind a bag of food, sweating and brandishing a rolling pin.

..thats made my weekend 

Now, If you'll all excuse me, I have a dog to beat up. He's bound to do something wrong at somepoint this evening so I'll just batter him now and get the telling off over and done with.

Ciao 

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I loved that vision La La, you made my evening. It was fun, just as I think you really meant it. Pink Panther would suit him, too!

For everyone who has questionned my sanity, this is far from the first time in my life that I've had that suggested, but definitely a first for kicking a Shetland's bum three times with a rubber boot and shouting at him. You'd think I'd cut his throat and hung him up alive by one foot to bleed dry before I ate him for lunch by the way some of you react 

I'll just pop out now and stand on a bonfire so one of you can nip along and burn me at the stake


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## Amaranta (3 June 2011)

fluffalina said:



			Interesting debate - just as many-sided as the smacking children question! 
I tend to side with those who say that the horse is looking for leadership - this is very true and many people just don't give their horses that leadership. They are very sweet and kind, and make sure that he has 20 different kinds of supplement, a rug for every type of weather and they fret and worry about his well being, but they fail to give him confidence. 
Furthermore, they fail to react swiftly to the tiny misdemeanours the horse will display, until these tiny things grow into big things, and become a problem. 

I don't like the idea of actually hitting a horse, just as I don't like the idea of hitting a child BUT if I was in charge of a horse that was bad mannered and bolshy I wouldn't hesitate to get him out of my space, and quick - it's no good trying to negotiate in these situations, you need to react quickly otherwise the horse won't connect the punishment with the crime! I prefer to swash them with something - end of the reins/rope/feed bag whatever is to hand as it is more about making them react than actually inflicting pain. 
I also think that any punishment metered out should be done with a cool head and without getting emotional...
		
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Totally agree, people will provide all the love and care but omit to give the horse one of the most important things - leadership.

One of my mares came to me from abroad as a five year old, sweetest thing on four legs but totally lacking in confidence, to the point where you could not even raise your voice without her having a complete breakdown, she would nap and buck for England.  She is a completely different horse now - and no I have never hit her, her 'naughtyness' was fear based.  I have another (now 7yo) who is a dominant mare, I hit her only once when she first arrived, one short sharp smack across the chest (she ignored my signals to leave my space), never had to hit her again BUT was extremely black and white with her and did not give her an inch but praised her when she got it right, she arrived as a bolshy youngster and by the time she was 4 and ready to be backed she was a sweetheart (and still is), she still has an opinion on everything but knows me as her leader, in the hands of someone mamby pamby she would have been dangerous.

I guess what I am saying is that each horse is different and needs to be treated as such - too many people are afraid to move their goalposts to take this into account.


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## Mildred (3 June 2011)

I haven't read all 347 pages, but all my horses over the years gave been pleasant, polite individuals, even if they weren't to start with, and I am not adverse to giving a sharp whack where necessary.  None have ever been headshy or scared of me but all have respected me; even my husbands old 17.2 shire/ID who for 20 years had done his own thing and simply trampled anyone in his path.  No amount of grrr-ing or fannying about with ground work would stop his door flattening ways but a few sessions of turning out and bringing in with a stout short stick soon made him aware of his boundaries.


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## Sol (3 June 2011)

Lazy horses get one, good & proper slap with the whip, and I expect that to be that! Due to me being a midget, if I get on anything remotely solid over about 12hh, they tend to be quite capable of turning a blind eye to me. So, if the ignorant beast decides that thats how the game shall be played, then fine. I ask nicely, I may ask again (a bit more firmly - giving benefit of the doubt!) and if no answer, then its a good sharp reminder that I'm NOT just there as a passenger!! I don't recall having to have to ask twice on many horses afterwards. May seem a little harsh but I'd rather ask once than have to use the whip to remind the horse every single time.

Stallion also got a slap the other day. Coming back onto the yard, he spotted a mare and as he's not long since finished covering for this year, his mind was well & trully elsewhere. It didn't stay there for long and I'd much rather avoid him running riot! He's a gem 99% of the time, and of course it's only in his nature, but that does not mean he can have his way all of the time, and safety has to come before being 'nice'!


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## Lady La La (3 June 2011)

"I loved that vision La La, you made my evening. It was fun, just as I think you really meant it. Pink Panther wuold suit him, too! "

It was intended as a giggle - my lame attempt to defuse the situation  

For what its worth, the kicking a shetland up the arse wasn't the issue I had, more the fact you would rather scare him than ensure your door was shut... BUT... I did take it a bit far, as per usual  and I certainly dont want to burn you at the stake


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## cptrayes (3 June 2011)

Lady La La said:



			more the fact you would rather scare him than ensure your door was shut.
		
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Which is of course completely untrue and would indeed be stupid if it were the case.

It was the best I could do, short term, to resolve a problem with my husband's temporary dementia due to a massively reduced blood supply to his brain. What's more, it worked. He's a really intelligent little horse and he usually learns from one lesson, as he did this time. I also particularly loved the practicality of the people suggesting that I should throw out my husband of approaching 40 years. Because of course we all know that one tough little pony has to be more important than any human, don't we  ?


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## Lady La La (3 June 2011)

I still think the spring on the door would have been a better option...  
Anyway, olive branch has been extended, do what you will with it


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## cptrayes (3 June 2011)

Lady La La said:



			I still think the spring on the door would have been a better option...  
Anyway, olive branch has been extended, do what you will with it 

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I accept the olive branch in the spirit in which it was offered, but did you not read why a spring would not work? The work the that OH was doing in the room is dangerous in a closed spaces, because there is a massive lead acid battery bank full of sulphuric acid. He would prop the door open, to be safe. And then, just as he walked away for a few minutes and forgot to close it when it had no spring, would walk away from the propped open door, net result identical. 

Much as people may like to think so, I am not stupid, and if it was simply a case of being able to guarantee that the door is never left open unattended for a minute, I would do so. 

I would have thought, myself, that would go without saying, but I can see that it is a lot more fun for people to get over excited about the "unnecessary abuse" of one pony with a three inch thick coat.

The thing is, that I know how many people think Shetlands are awful creatures who they would never want to own in a month of Sundays. People who feel that way came to look at a horse I had for sale a year or so ago. They met him and said that they hated ShItlands (their term) with a vengeance, but that mine was lovely. (They didn't want to buy my horse.)  

Now, how much of people's general hatred for Shetlands is that so many of them are nasty ill disciplined little beasts? And what I am doing with mine that is so terrible that he is safe with tiny children, he follows me everywhere when I am in the yard, and people who hate the breed love him????


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## Holly Hocks (3 June 2011)

I LOVE Shetlands!  We have a mini shetland at our yard - she is a complete angel.  If I ever needed a companion for mine, it would definitely be the breed I would get.  They are adorable creatures with the heart of a lion and the personality of a clown.


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## Marydoll (3 June 2011)

cptrayes said:



			I kicked him on his big round furry bottom with a foot in a rubber boot three times while yelling my head off at him and waving my arms violently in his general direction. 

He was uninjured in any way and he has been wary of the feed store ever since.

I am baffled what on earth all the fuss is about, do any of you really understand how tough a Shetland is and how difficult it would actually be to hurt them?
		
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You sound negligent for not ensuring the feedroom was secure from the pony.
Why was it wandering about loose to get in there ?
Heaven forbid it was my pony at your yard subjected to your treatment, for your negligence, i think i'd have decked you when i found out about it.


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## madeleine1 (3 June 2011)

i do it to mine, a couple of times a year she just gets to up herself to be safe and needs bringing back down to earth. its not about her being submissive its about her coming back to being a pair with me and i could nag at her all the time and keep her down trodden but i prefer to handle her fairly and freely 99% of the time and then just remind her to respect my space very occasionally


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## cptrayes (3 June 2011)

marydoll said:



			You sound negligent for not ensuring the feedroom was secure from the pony.
Why was it wandering about loose to get in there ?
Heaven forbid it was my pony at your yard subjected to your treatment, for your negligence, i think i'd have decked you when i found out about it.
		
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Oh read the posts before you comment will you? All your questions are answered in the previous posts, you preaching person. Meanwhile I'll just go climb back on my bonfire so you can pop along and tie me to the stake and burn me


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## Marydoll (3 June 2011)

cptrayes said:



			Oh read the posts before you comment will you? All your questions are answered in the previous posts, you preaching person. Meanwhile I'll just go climb back on my bonfire so you can pop along and tie me to the stake and burn me 

Click to expand...

Did read the posts, yep still sounds negligent, and yep shetlands still feel pain
This is an open forum, you posted and i commented, im not preaching and am entitled to voice my opinion.


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## cptrayes (4 June 2011)

So what would you propose that is a little more constructive than your violent little comment?  You're entitled to make it, of course. But if you read what I wrote you paid precious little attention to it, didn't you?

What's your constructive suggestion:  that I move house so the feed room is not off the yard; that I tie my Shetland up at all times that the door could possibly be in use (daylight); that I shoot my husband who accidentally left the door open because he happens to be human not a robot; that he works in a dangerous environment with a closer on the door when he needs to maintain the battery bank; that I keep the feed up a dangerous staircase in the hayloft so I can break my neck falling down it carrying buckets; that I build a new feed shed without planning consent and be told to knock it down because developments for horses will not be approved in the National Park in which I live; that I dismantle our wind turbine so I can have the space for feed bins; or all of those? Constructive suggestions please.

No, on the other hand, please don't. My Shetland, who was completely unharmed by the incident did, clever little fellow that he is, learn from the one lesson several months ago. He will now take several minutes before he even thinks about edging towards the open door, which gives me time to realise that the OH has made a  mistake and get it shut. 

Why on earth are people so determined to believe that some terrible harm has come to one tough little pony because one day, for 30 seconds, someone got after him with a welly boot and a shout? As I said earlier, from the strength of some of the reactions on here anyone would think I cut his throat and hung him up alive by one leg to bleed out before eating him for lunch.  

Ooh, there's a thought. I was wondering what I could cook for the sister in law on Sunday


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## Marydoll (4 June 2011)

Yep that last post of yours just confirmed what an arrogant individual you are.
Your yard problems are yours to deal with not mine, and again begs the question of why the pony was loose in such a dangerous environment from your own description
Nobody woyld expect you to risk the lives of you or your family,but its ok to let the pony wander from your staement.


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## Tnavas (4 June 2011)

IHK said:



			I find it surprising as well so many horses owned by H & H forum members (as well as biting and attacking) appear to want to throw themselves in front of lorries.  I would have thought that would be fairly unusual.

Obviously these horses would have been got used to traffic before being ridden out on the roads and, of course, they would be schooled to the basic aids.  Isn't it easier and safer to do a shoulder in towards the traffic rather than hit them which would raise their adrenalin and make the situation more dangerous?
		
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Used to traffic *BEFORE* going out on the road - how do you train your horses to deal with traffic?


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## YorksG (4 June 2011)

Evelyn said:



			Used to traffic *BEFORE* going out on the road - how do you train your horses to deal with traffic?
		
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Presumably you have to have a sample of every sort of vehicle you could possibly meet   That also means that the yard is so full of vehicles, there is no chance of anything, human or equine getting near the feed room   

We currently have two mares who until a week ago were scrapping on a regular basis, one 16.3 ID and a 16 Ardennes type, battering the heck out of each other. Nips and scrapes to both. I have hit horses and will hit them again, most of the time it is not necessary, but when a horse has come to us with bad manners, it will be taught to have/remember its manners. I can't abide bad mannered horses and will not have half a ton of horse walk over me, just because the previous owner has tried to discuss the issue with the animal.


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## Tnavas (4 June 2011)

cptrayes said:



			So what would you propose that is a little more constructive than your violent little comment?  You're entitled to make it, of course. But if you read what I wrote you paid precious little attention to it, didn't you?

What's your constructive suggestion:  that I move house so the feed room is not off the yard; that I tie my Shetland up at all times that the door could possibly be in use (daylight); that I shoot my husband who accidentally left the door open because he happens to be human not a robot; that he works in a dangerous environment with a closer on the door when he needs to maintain the battery bank; that I keep the feed up a dangerous staircase in the hayloft so I can break my neck falling down it carrying buckets; that I build a new feed shed without planning consent and be told to knock it down because developments for horses will not be approved in the National Park in which I live; that I dismantle our wind turbine so I can have the space for feed bins; or all of those? Constructive suggestions please.

No, on the other hand, please don't. My Shetland, who was completely unharmed by the incident did, clever little fellow that he is, learn from the one lesson several months ago. He will now take several minutes before he even thinks about edging towards the open door, which gives me time to realise that the OH has made a  mistake and get it shut. 

Why on earth are people so determined to believe that some terrible harm has come to one tough little pony because one day, for 30 seconds, someone got after him with a welly boot and a shout? As I said earlier, from the strength of some of the reactions on here anyone would think I cut his throat and hung him up alive by one leg to bleed out before eating him for lunch.  

Ooh, there's a thought. I was wondering what I could cook for the sister in law on Sunday 

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To  be honest to leave a pony wandering around in an area where there is a potential risk of him getting into the feed room because someone can't be bothered to shut the door is very poor horsemanship.

You were lucky he didn't get sick that time - you may not be so lucky next time. If you aren't able to store the feed so that its safe then why buy so much at a time. From experience storing feed stacked is a haven for mice & rats. They do love to nibble their way in then contaminate the whole bag. 

Why would you store it in an area that stores dangerous stuff too? If you can't have a shed of your own, then build the shed within the shed and lock up the feed.

One day you may not be there when OH forgets to shut the door. He is an adult and should be more than capable of remembering to shut a door.

Using a stick to hit a horse constructively is one thing but kicking a horse from the ground is just bad temper. My friend has a lovely pony that has taken her three months working with to catch it. It has a steel toe cap size dent in it's rib cage were some b*****d kicked it.


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## lazybee (4 June 2011)

marydoll said:



			You sound negligent for not ensuring the feedroom was secure from the pony.
Why was it wandering about loose to get in there ?
Heaven forbid it was my pony at your yard subjected to your treatment, for your negligence, i think i'd have decked you when i found out about it.
		
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I don't think your open aggression and hostility has any place in this discussion and your holier that thou judgmental attitude is ridiculous.


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## traceyann (4 June 2011)

Three out of four of my horses have been brought up with smacks they have the best manners ever not just me saying that. My fourth as been beaten to inch of his life and is really badly behaved not by me may i add hes now learning he only get a smack for bad behaviour There a place for a smack as long as its as soon as they have been naughty so they know what its for. I never have to smack my three horses now a dirty look or a cough is enough for them to know their over stepping the mark


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## Marydoll (4 June 2011)

lazybee said:



			I don't think your open aggression and hostility has any place in this discussion and your holier that thou judgmental attitude is ridiculous.
		
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Its not holier than thou, its good practice, and the "deck you " was mild if i caught someone booting a pony of mine for their negligence,,  mabe you need to examine your practices if you think retaliating with agression is wrong
when it seemed to be ok to meet it out to the pony .
Just incase you think i'm averse to using crops or sticks
I have no problem with the use of crops/ schooling sticks being used in training, but i do have if they are used to excess.
I am also not averse to taking a leadrope off a horses butt for invading my space
I do think its wrong to punish an animal for somethimg that is in its nature, and a pony with an open feedroom is like a moth to a flame.
I think its sad that you feel good practice is holier than thou, and yes we all make mistakes, but do something to fix it so it doesnt happen again


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## tallyho! (4 June 2011)

marydoll said:



			Its not holier than thou, its good practice, and the "deck you " was mild if i caught someone booting a pony of mine for their negligence,,  mabe you need to examine your practices if you think retaliating with agression is wrong
when it seemed to be ok to meet it out to the pony .
Just incase you think i'm averse to using crops or sticks
I have no problem with the use of crops/ schooling sticks being used in training, but i do have if they are used to excess.
I am also not averse to taking a leadrope off a horses butt for invading my space
I do think its wrong to punish an animal for somethimg that is in its nature, and a pony with an open feedroom is like a moth to a flame.
I think its sad that you feel good practice is holier than thou, and yes we all make mistakes, but do something to fix it so it doesnt happen again
		
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Meh.


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## AndySpooner (4 June 2011)

Can we go back to a post on page 22 or thereabouts. Someone told a story about a stallion dragging someone out of a wheel chair and into its box where it trampled her.

I was first horrified by the tale, but as it expanded, I've come to a different view, notwithstanding I wouldn't like to see anyone hurt or killed.
But this stallion, known to be nasty. A stick kept near his door. The incident with this woman was apparently not an accident as someone had forgotten to close the top door. (was this Cptrayes old man, a serial door opener).

My point is that no wonder this stallion was nasty, kept in a box, top door shut people shouldn't keep any horse let alone a stallion in these conditions.

The responsibility for this horse and his conditions was the yard manager, who was the person who ended up being hurt.

Perhaps if the stallion had been treated more humainly in the first instance she would not have been hurt.

People very often are the architects of their own misfortune.


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## Wagtail (4 June 2011)

It has to be said that the majority of stallions lead a miserable life, shut up most of the time. It's bound to send some of them crazy.


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## teagreen (4 June 2011)

Andy, can I just ask (geuinely out of interest), if, say, you got a new horse and it decided to test things out with you, as they sometimes do, and had a bite at you, what would you do?


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## tallyho! (4 June 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			Can we go back to a post on page 22 or thereabouts. Someone told a story about a stallion dragging someone out of a wheel chair and into its box where it trampled her.

I was first horrified by the tale, but as it expanded, I've come to a different view, notwithstanding I wouldn't like to see anyone hurt or killed.
But this stallion, known to be nasty. A stick kept near his door. The incident with this woman was apparently not an accident as someone had forgotten to close the top door. (was this Cptrayes old man, a serial door opener).

My point is that no wonder this stallion was nasty, kept in a box, top door shut people shouldn't keep any horse let alone a stallion in these conditions.

The responsibility for this horse and his conditions was the yard manager, who was the person who ended up being hurt.

Perhaps if the stallion had been treated more humainly in the first instance she would not have been hurt.

People very often are the architects of their own misfortune.
		
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I do see where you are coming from AndyS, however, having worked on a stud many moons ago with many stallions I can't see that this has any bearing and certainly is not true as this stallion HAS a behavioural issue. 

Your statement is true but this is also applies: _People very often are shaped by thier own misfortune._

There were three stallions on this particular yard. All were treated with the same love and respect however, one was just that bit more "special". The special kind where you would close all top doors of other stables if he were to walk past, you walked with a stick visible to him and you did things very systematically. If you deviated and he spotted a gap, he'd either be killing you or beating a door down to get to a mare/stallion. I've witnessed a stallion fight and had to break it up. That's correct - my tiny friend and I had to break it up on our OWN! Blood was everywhere. I don't think even Pat Parelli nor Monty Roberts would have been in there without whips in both hands!!! Sod horsewhispering!!! I bet they would have done WHATEVER necessary.

In the stable & in the field he was a gent and you could pet him for hours just like the other two.

They ALL received the same affection except for the black one during moving him.

Before the KIA's come down on me saying "duh what were the stallions doing in together??" well DUH accidents happen. That's life. Deal with it.


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## amandap (4 June 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			Can we go back to a post on page 22 or thereabouts. Someone told a story about a stallion dragging someone out of a wheel chair and into its box where it trampled her.

I was first horrified by the tale, but as it expanded, I've come to a different view, notwithstanding I wouldn't like to see anyone hurt or killed.
But this stallion, known to be nasty. A stick kept near his door. The incident with this woman was apparently not an accident as someone had forgotten to close the top door. (was this Cptrayes old man, a serial door opener).

My point is that no wonder this stallion was nasty, kept in a box, top door shut people shouldn't keep any horse let alone a stallion in these conditions.

The responsibility for this horse and his conditions was the yard manager, who was the person who ended up being hurt.

Perhaps if the stallion had been treated more humainly in the first instance she would not have been hurt.

People very often are the architects of their own misfortune.
		
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I agree! It seems stallions are _sometimes_ kept in isolation and in a dark small box! Imo there is no wonder some have turned aggressive and humans should have more sense than to put themselves in danger of a known aggressive horse I'm afraid. Human's have to take responsibility for this and NOT blame the stallon. Keeping horses in ways that are so far from their natural life style is something I think should be seriously addressed. Their physical and mental health is clearly suffering and this is then compounded by humans having to resort to violence to protect themselves when dealing with these horses... erm who is the 'winner' in this senario? It's just total madness imo. 

Surely locking them alone in a dark stall for long periods (years in some cases I believe) is exposing them to acute sensory deprivation at the least? Isn't this against human and animal rights? 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensory_deprivation


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## AndySpooner (4 June 2011)

Teagreen, when they push the boundaries, I want to maintain my personal space, so they don't get close enough to bite, or kick me. Horses even my special one, lol, are invited into my space, they don't barge in.


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## Tinypony (4 June 2011)

I had a conversation with Pat Parelli about stallions over a mug of coffee many moons ago.  
First, in terms of his Parelli training system, he did not consider anyone to have enough "savvy" to deal with a stallion until they were beyond passing their old-style Parelli level 3.  Obviously he realised that the whole world wouldn't work through their levels programme before handling a stallion, but he wouldn't allow anyone in front of him with a stallion who was below that level.  (Apart from Charles Wilson, who I believer sneaked his beautiful coloured stally in under the radar a few times).  So what I mean is that Mr Parelli would say that dealing with stallions is a job for people who really know what they are doing.  
In the case of a stallion with the tendencies described above (regardless of how the horse came to be that way), I suspect that Pat P would either want the issues to be overcome with good training and care, or he would suggest that a horse that dangerous shouldn't be kept in a situation where people could get hurt.  Maybe one of the Parelli students here could pose the question on their forum?  My suspicion is that the cowboys like Pat and Monty are pretty black and white about things like this.  I don't think they would allow a horse that dangerous to stay alive. Pat told me about the day he saw a stallion rip out his lady owner's throat, killing her, that is something that has stayed with him, unsurprisingly.


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## teagreen (4 June 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			Teagreen, when they push the boundaries, I want to maintain my personal space, so they don't get close enough to bite, or kick me. Horses even my special one, lol, are invited into my space, they don't barge in.
		
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So how do you maintain your personal space? I'm not talking about a horse barging in, I'm saying you're leading it and, out of the blue, it turns and has a bite at you. Do you not have some way of telling this horse that this is unacceptable?

What are your views of, for example, eventers using a stick to get a good stride to a fence?


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## DJ (4 June 2011)

teagreen said:



			Andy, can I just ask (geuinely out of interest), if, say, you got a new horse and it decided to test things out with you, as they sometimes do, and had a bite at you, what would you do?
		
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My lad used to bite/nip when he came to me, his old owner used to slap him one for it, he still used to do it, but he had worked out how to do it sneakily, snaking his head, and would then shift his head pdq so he didn`t get the punishment of the slap. 


When he first did it to me i jumped at him and did the largest roar at him, waving my arms about and backed him the hell up. He`s never done it since.
He doesn`t and hasn`t bitten anyone else since. He doesn`t do the head snaking anymore either.


He occasionally mouths (he`s a very immature 4 year old) kind of sucks things .... but never uses his teeth. He loves picking things up in his mouth, mainly the poopicker when i`m using it ... i turn round and he`s stood there "holding" it for me


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## SusannaF (4 June 2011)

Who would want to breed from a stallion with a nasty temperament (not caused by conditions)?

Horse racing I can see it happen. But otherwise?


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## amandap (4 June 2011)

Tinypony said:



			I had a conversation with Pat Parelli about stallions over a mug of coffee many moons ago.  
First, in terms of his Parelli training system, he did not consider anyone to have enough "savvy" to deal with a stallion until they were beyond passing their old-style Parelli level 3.  Obviously he realised that the whole world wouldn't work through their levels programme before handling a stallion, but he wouldn't allow anyone in front of him with a stallion who was below that level.  .
		
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Actually I do think allowing people who aren't experienced in handling stallions to care for them is asking for trouble. I don't have any and have never dealt with one more than occasionally at friends but I do know they do require very consistant and strict handling (not much flexibility in manners etc.) and if not soon become difficult and dangerous. So I do think PP has a very valid point there myself.


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## tallyho! (4 June 2011)

amandap said:



			Actually I do think allowing people who aren't experienced in handling stallions to care for them is asking for trouble. I don't have any and have never dealt with one more than occasionally at friends but I do know they do require very consistant and strict handling (not much flexibility in manners etc.) and if not soon become difficult and dangerous. So I do think PP has a very valid point there myself.
		
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Where'd you start then? You just can't generalise like that.

You can't generalise that ALL stallions are kept boxed up. That is cruel in my opinion and I've never been anywhere that does that but know places that do - however being stallions they have to be kept in strict routines and this includes turnout, secure paddocks quite a long way from each other if you are on a responsible breeding plan and can't afford "accidents".

Having siad that, the stud nextdoor kept thiers turned out with mares 24/7 and never had much trouble except for a constant supply of foals which is all very natural but you'll be lucky to find a stallions as good as that. They were cobs though...


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## Tinypony (4 June 2011)

With the stallion and the lady dragged over the door, personally I'd have done whatever it took to get her safe as quickly as possible.  That might have involved some action with a broom or whatever was to hand, because in that situation, one more stamp could be the one that killed her.  Let's face it though, most of the stuff people are talking about here that they consider justifies a "good smack" etc is nowhere near on that scale.  
In some of the ridden situations, like needing a horse to move over because of the Legendary Lorry, most of us don't train our horses to a high level of responsiveness.  So the horses can be slow to react, or maybe not as precise as we need them to be.  That's when people give them a good whack to get them to respond faster.  That's not a criticism, it is just the way most of us tend to ride, particularly when we're out hacking when we don't expect as much of our horses as we do in the arena.  A well trained western horse, just for example, wouldn't need a whack to get it to move over quickly, it would be there almost before the rider had thought about what they wanted.
In the case of the stallion and the wheelchair lady then after she'd been rescued I guess the question would have been what happened next about the yard owner who allowed the situation to arise in the first place.  You can't work on the assumption that everyone will always do the things they need to for safety around a deranged horse.  The responsibility lies with whoever is in charge of the yard to make sure that dangerous situations are avoided.  If you don't do that, then it can all go wrong in seconds.  (But should the stallion be in the situation where it can cause that much damage in the first place?  That's really the question for me.  Nothing to do with whether or not a person would be justified in walloping it when things got out of hand).


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## Noodlebug (4 June 2011)

Maybe I am lucky with my horse as he has never bitten or pulled a face at me and has definately never been tempted to drag some poor unsuspecting disabled person from their wheelchair so that he could commit a murder in his stable!!!!!


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## Tinypony (4 June 2011)

Well, I've been in situations where I've felt that I needed to respond by hitting, or whatever anyone wants to call it.  Like maybe when I was getting run over by an upset horse, or if the horse wasn't responding as quickly as I needed it to in a ridden situation.  I don't think I've felt the need for some time, and maybe that's down to the experience I've gained and the training I've had, I don't know?  I think maybe it's down to learning to set up some ground rules from the start which mean I tend not to get myself into such sticky situations.  Riding, slapping my own leg tends to sharpen things up if The Lorry approaches.


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## brigantia (4 June 2011)

I came to riding later in life and in the beginning I was very squeamish about using the schooling whip. As a result the school ponies had a lot of fun with me.  So my instructor made me jump off and told me to smack myself with the whip as hard as I could. I did. It didn't actually hurt. I gave myself a wallop in the hip. It was really just a sting. This taught me that a  sharp tap with the schooling whip is really not cruel. It's no big deal. I think the noise is scarier than the actual impact.

My riding progressed better after this. 

When I bought my first horse the first thing I had to learn was to be firm and fair, because she was a clever Welshy with lots of tricks up her sleeve and was trying to figure out exactly what she could get away with. She used to nap at the top of the driveway, etc., I mean really badly nap. So I had to learn to be really firm with her. Naughtiness had to be followed up immediately by discipline and clear consequences. Now I hack her out alone all the time. 

What's ultimately kinder to the horse? Being firm but fair and using discipline to discourage dangerous behaviour while using praise and rewards to encourage positive behaviour? Or letting your horse literally walk all over you and call the shots so it becomes unrideable and is passed from pillar to post and ultimately ends up being sold to the meat man? 

Horses, like children, are actually happier when they have clear boundaries and leadership. It makes their lives a lot less stressed and confusing. 

Obviously I agree with others that you should never hit a horse in anger, NEVER in their head or face unless it's for self-defense, never to be macho, and never actually beat them. You want to be firm and fair, not an abusive bully. 

When exactly did discipline become a dirty word?


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## tallyho! (4 June 2011)

brigantia said:



			I came to riding later in life and in the beginning I was very squeamish about using the schooling whip. As a result the school ponies had a lot of fun with me.  So my instructor made me jump off and told me to smack myself with the whip as hard as I could. I did. It didn't actually hurt. I gave myself a wallop in the hip. It was really just a sting. This taught me that a  sharp tap with the schooling whip is really not cruel. It's no big deal. I think the noise is scarier than the actual impact.

My riding progressed better after this. 

When I bought my first horse the first thing I had to learn was to be firm and fair, because she was a clever Welshy with lots of tricks up her sleeve and was trying to figure out exactly what she could get away with. She used to nap at the top of the driveway, etc., I mean really badly nap. So I had to learn to be really firm with her. Naughtiness had to be followed up immediately by discipline and clear consequences. Now I hack her out alone all the time. 

What's ultimately kinder to the horse? Being firm but fair and using discipline to discourage dangerous behaviour while using praise and rewards to encourage positive behaviour? Or letting your horse literally walk all over you and call the shots so it becomes unrideable and is passed from pillar to post and ultimately ends up being sold to the meat man? 

Horses, like children, are actually happier when they have clear boundaries and leadership. It makes their lives a lot less stressed and confusing. 

Obviously I agree with others that you should never hit a horse in anger, NEVER in their head or face unless it's for self-defense, never to be macho, and never actually beat them. You want to be firm and fair, not an abusive bully. 

When exactly did discipline become a dirty word?
		
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Bravo!!!!


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## Queenbee (4 June 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			Can we go back to a post on page 22 or thereabouts. Someone told a story about a stallion dragging someone out of a wheel chair and into its box where it trampled her.

I was first horrified by the tale, but as it expanded, I've come to a different view, notwithstanding I wouldn't like to see anyone hurt or killed.
But this stallion, known to be nasty. A stick kept near his door. The incident with this woman was apparently not an accident as someone had forgotten to close the top door. (was this Cptrayes old man, a serial door opener).

My point is that no wonder this stallion was nasty, kept in a box, top door shut people shouldn't keep any horse let alone a stallion in these conditions.

The responsibility for this horse and his conditions was the yard manager, who was the person who ended up being hurt.

Perhaps if the stallion had been treated more humainly in the first instance she would not have been hurt.

People very often are the architects of their own misfortune.
		
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Well why don't you instead of preaching offer to go and show them how the experts handle it!

I repeat my post from earlier since you seem fine with commenting on other peoples incidents but negate to answer queries directed at you:



queenbee said:



			Finally there are those like andyspooner who say they are anti violence and would never hit a horse, yet they see absolutely no problem with whacking it around the face with the metal part of a leadrope or a stick, which is apparently ok because it is called a effing carrot stick and PP says its ok (WTF?!) So this is not barbaric, but hitting a horse who is being a git/dangerous/agreessive is?

)
		
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You will also see (and I can't believe that I am saying this) that in some ways I agree with your sentiment that humans often create or misread the situation



queenbee said:



			1. Never repremand in anger

2. Learn to read the individual (horse, dog or human)

3. Learn to read situations and 

4. react quickly and appropriately to the situation and the individual

5. Accept responsibility, don't just blame your animals
		
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But equally there is some behaviour that is inexcusable and the horses need to know this, for example: the horse with a sandwich fettish or my youngster who bites when he is bored or tired.  Yes both of these have reasons for their behaviour but that doesn't make their behaviour any more acceptable, far better to stop the horse from doing this and as the handler be in control of reprimanding the horse than make excuses and do nothing, what then happens when your horse hurts someone and that someone then hurts your horse in response?!

As I said earlier  ben is a baby, and bites when frustrated/bored/tired, whenever he does this he receives a slap on his shoulder and a growl off me.  He hardly ever does it now and I feel much better in the knowledge that no one will get harmed by him bitings!


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## amandap (4 June 2011)

tallyho! said:



			Where'd you start then? You just can't generalise like that.

You can't generalise that ALL stallions are kept boxed up. That is cruel in my opinion and I've never been anywhere that does that but know places that do - however being stallions they have to be kept in strict routines and this includes turnout, secure paddocks quite a long way from each other if you are on a responsible breeding plan and can't afford "accidents".

Having siad that, the stud nextdoor kept thiers turned out with mares 24/7 and never had much trouble except for a constant supply of foals which is all very natural but you'll be lucky to find a stallions as good as that. They were cobs though... 

Click to expand...

I don't think I did generalize that all stallions were kept locked up.


amandap said:



			I agree! It seems stallions are _sometimes_ kept in isolation and in a dark small box!
		
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I was trying to illustrate some of the reasons, in my view, that stallions have problems with humans that's all. Of course there are many stallions cared for in ways that do not lead them to become aggressive. Perhaps those that are not kept/handled in these ways or ones that have become aggressive should be looked at more closely than just saying 'oh that stallion is dangerous' and subject it to more bashing and aggressive handling to keep humans safe. Looking at why a stallion has become aggressive surely is an opportunity to learn and make changes to reduce the incidence of stallion aggression in future. Or am I alone in this view? 

Of course, as I pointed out much earlier in this thread, if a human is being attacked, any means of saving them is acceptable in that moment but I don't think we should automatically assume that this is the fault of the stallion as some do. We humans are the ones 'in control' here and there is an element of we reap what we sow imo...


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## amandap (4 June 2011)

brigantia said... "Horses, like children, are actually happier when they have clear boundaries and leadership. It makes their lives a lot less stressed and confusing."

I agree wholeheartedly that horses are much happier with clear boundries and leadership. I would add consistant though as I think this is a vital element.
Does this have to mean hitting and whipping to hurt though? I think this is the nub of this thread?

I believe all the above can be done without hurting horses...


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## amandap (4 June 2011)

Tinypony said:



			I think maybe it's down to learning to set up some ground rules from the start which mean I tend not to get myself into such sticky situations.
		
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I think 'ground rules' are vital myself as well as good planning.

I do realize I'm not on a livery and therefore don't have to deal with other people's horses in the field etc. and I can see the potential dangers here and also see that defending yourself may be necessary at times. I think it's a shame that *some* liveries don't foster a sort of group strategy for dealing with 'difficult' horses as a group where various liveries have to run the gauntlet of horses threatening to knock you down etc.  Am I in cloud cuckoo land here though? lol

Mta. Apologies for multiple posts in a row.


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## Enfys (4 June 2011)

Wagtail said:



			It has to be said that the majority of stallions lead a miserable life, shut up most of the time. It's bound to send some of them crazy.
		
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Yep, locked in 24/7, no friends to play with.


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## AndySpooner (4 June 2011)

Queenbee, I don't hit horses with a carrot stick, nor do I belt them round the head with a clip.

I don't want to train horses for other people, and I certainly don't want to train people. I haven't got the empathy with people to be a good trainer.


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## Spring Feather (4 June 2011)

amandap said:



			I can see the potential dangers here and also see that defending yourself may be necessary at times.
		
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Correct.  For people who handle many many horses, often of unknown character, then it is completely unrealistic for anyone to say anything different.  For anyone to even remotely consider *not* trying to defend themselves (in what ever manner necessary) when faced with a horse attack has to be a shilling short of a pound.


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## AndySpooner (4 June 2011)

One minute you get asked a simple run of the mill question about hitting your horse, and in the normal course of events, you say you don't, or never.
Then the goal posts change and suddenly horses are trying to kill people and everyone is fighting for their life.


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## Enfys (4 June 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			One minute you get asked a simple run of the mill question about hitting your horse, and in the normal course of events, you say you don't, or never.
Then the goal posts change and suddenly horses are trying to kill people and everyone is fighting for their life.
		
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Isn't that the nature of any conversation though?   Ripples in a pond. No bad thing really.


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## RuthnMeg (4 June 2011)

QR, yes I have wolloped a horse or two in my time. Meg has had a few smacks on the arse. Do I think I am bad? No, has it effected her? No. 
I once did 'set into' a horrid horse, and imho deserved it. I don't regret it for a moment. He could have seriously become dangerous, and I stopped him in his tracks.

For those who say 'never', I don't beleive it for a moment.


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## Queenbee (4 June 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			Queenbee, I don't hit horses with a carrot stick, nor do I belt them round the head with a clip.

I don't want to train horses for other people, and I certainly don't want to train people. I haven't got the empathy with people to be a good trainer.
		
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AS thats good to know, and I couldn't agree more with your last statement, I will help friends that ask for my help because they know me and are happy for me to handle their horses but people often make me so mad.

I was at my friends yard, having just driven in with children running around (which was ok) until I saw this sodding youngster running loose back from the field, the owners caught him and I went in to see the YO,  10 mins later there was a knock at the door, she couldn't handle the youngster she had brought and was asking for help to turn him out in the field (he was 13 hh)  he had peed off from her a total of 5 times before she asked for help.  I went out and her kids were still running around, this instantly ticked me off owning to the situation and I told her to pop them in the car.  It transpired that this youngster who had lived out all his life had for the first 3 days been kept in the stable (on the advice of a far more experienced livery) so that the new owner could bond with it, the second it got near the field it got over excited seeing the other horses and flipped, it had reared and bolted, then it just kept taking the mickey!

She hadn't the brains she was born with and certainly wasn't responsible enough to have kids or a young pony.

I walked up to him, threaded the leadrope over his poll incase I needed control or he tried to rear and promptly and firmly walked the little firecracker to the field, he was like a coiled frustrated spring, this was entirely an error on the humans side, I won't say he was well behaved but all it took was a firm voice and boundaries, I made him stand, patted him and turned him loose in his paddock.


If I had to handle other peoples horses for them daily I would probably come up on an assault charge and not for hurting a horse, this poor thing was totally flipped because of the humans ignorance, she assumed she could treat him like a well seasoned horse who could deal with things, she didn't even consider the fact that he was a baby and had no idea how to behave or that it was her role to teach him


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## millreef (4 June 2011)

Don't have enough hours in the day to read all the replies but for what it's worth......... I would NEVER and have NEVER whacked my horse.  He would crap himself then die of shock.  I think a slap for a nip or something is different but to wallop a horse isn't cricket.  I do see grooms doing it though. My son had to have a word with one today for beating a pony which was scared of the hosepipe.  Now it's scared of the groom, the whip and the hosepipe! Fickin Einstein.


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## amandap (4 June 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			One minute you get asked a simple run of the mill question about hitting your horse, and in the normal course of events, you say you don't, or never.
Then the goal posts change and suddenly horses are trying to kill people and everyone is fighting for their life.
		
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Lol. Even I'm getting drawn into that world. 

The thing  for me is there shouldn't be a reason to hit a horse or fight for your life either. Surely we humans have the brains to train and arrange matters so these occurances are very rare? Or is that asking too much of us?


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## Roasted Chestnuts (4 June 2011)

Yup I would rather give one good belt than several big kicks and little taps, gets the horses attention and shows you mean business.

My two react to this better than nagging or pestering, but TBF found it worked with most horses i have had, better one good belt that makes them behave or pay attention that things leading to a bad situation.


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## tallyho! (4 June 2011)

What I don't get is everyone arguing about dangerous stallions, kicking shetlands but there's tb's out there getting whipped across the finishing line and no-one bats an eyelid.


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## Rosie'smum (4 June 2011)

I have as she has suddenly got into the habbit of planting her feet and not budgeing out on hacks. I ask nicely and she still jus standa there so a good whack will get her movin again. It is really needed when we were crossing the road and sh stopped in the middle of oncoming traffic onna bend!


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## Kelly Marks (4 June 2011)

Tallyho!  They care in Towcester! http://www.racingpost.com/news/hors...-ban-use-of-whip-in-finishes-at-track/847219/


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## brighteyes (4 June 2011)

Just arrived!  400 posts in and I have read them pretty much through.

Can I ask, do you mean hit with your hand, tap with a schooling whip, a wallop on the flank with a normal whip, lash with a lunging whip or what?

And do you mean ANY horse?

Three of ours would die if they were EVER smacked, so no.  Raising any eyebrow, let alone a hand is plenty.  It would be utterly counterproductive as their personalities are too sensitive to process any form of reprimand.

One only needs you to carry a whip to instantly 'shape' up and one we used to have got even less cooperative if smacked with a whip.  I have one, though, who seems to need a reminder every now and again.  He's a bit ADHD and no amount of training seems to implant 'forward' in his brain, except when he is being silly.

Now, I could retire him to the field and laminitis, shut him in to avoid the laminitis but use dietary control to keep him slim, or sell him on and let someone else deal with his inherent idleness. Or continue to administer a slap/threat of one now and again so he listens to and obeys my leg.  He is irrepressible and no amount of repeated correction seems to work.  Do I abandon an otherwise fab little pony with a sense of humour as not being of the right disposition to be ridden.  For a few hours a week?  I don't always carry a whip with him or use it when I do carry it, but a timely slap or sometimes just a hand off the rein serves to re-focus his mind onto the job.


In defence, from a violent horse, I think it would be reflex action, but you'd need to be carrying something handily weapon-like at the time.  

As punishment, and in temper? The former yes, I have instantly reprimanded bad behaviour, the latter to my shame and ignorance also yes.  In the past on a horse I didn't understand and who didn't understand me.  I'd like to think I am a lot older and wiser now. *_creeps away_*


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## Shilasdair (4 June 2011)

I never hit my horses 
Instead, when they ignore my leg when riding I like to take my (hefty) legs off their sides completely, then swing them in for a giant thump.
I am sure they probably have bruises on their rib cage, but at least they don't get marked (as they can from whips).
I also have a Monty Roberts wip w o p - and can give them a good bashing with the knotty part of it.
If they don't respond to that, then I assume they are not suited to be riding horses, and sell them to Potters so another horse can benefit from the good home I offer instead.
I never really hit them though, if you mean with a whip.
S


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## tallyho! (4 June 2011)

IHK said:



			Tallyho!  They care in Towcester! http://www.racingpost.com/news/hors...-ban-use-of-whip-in-finishes-at-track/847219/

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Jolly good show!!! Thanks for that IHK - maybe it could start a trend


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## tallyho! (4 June 2011)

Shilasdair said:



			I never hit my horses 
Instead, when they ignore my leg when riding I like to take my (hefty) legs off their sides completely, then swing them in for a giant thump.
I am sure they probably have bruises on their rib cage, but at least they don't get marked (as they can from whips).
I also have a Monty Roberts wip w o p - and can give them a good bashing with the knotty part of it.
If they don't respond to that, then I assume they are not suited to be riding horses, and sell them to Potters so another horse can benefit from the good home I offer instead.
I never really hit them though, if you mean with a whip.
S 

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 *spectacles, testacles, wallet and watch*

I'll start a vigil for you now Shils... amen x..............


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## lexiedhb (4 June 2011)

Tinypony said:



			With the stallion and the lady dragged over the door, personally I'd have done whatever it took to get her safe as quickly as possible.  That might have involved some action with a broom or whatever was to hand, because in that situation, one more stamp could be the one that killed her.  Let's face it though, most of the stuff people are talking about here that they consider justifies a "good smack" etc is nowhere near on that scale.  
In some of the ridden situations, like needing a horse to move over because of the Legendary Lorry, most of us don't train our horses to a high level of responsiveness.  So the horses can be slow to react, or maybe not as precise as we need them to be.  That's when people give them a good whack to get them to respond faster.  That's not a criticism, it is just the way most of us tend to ride, particularly when we're out hacking when we don't expect as much of our horses as we do in the arena.  A well trained western horse, just for example, wouldn't need a whack to get it to move over quickly, it would be there almost before the rider had thought about what they wanted.
In the case of the stallion and the wheelchair lady then after she'd been rescued I guess the question would have been what happened next about the yard owner who allowed the situation to arise in the first place.  You can't work on the assumption that everyone will always do the things they need to for safety around a deranged horse.  The responsibility lies with whoever is in charge of the yard to make sure that dangerous situations are avoided.  If you don't do that, then it can all go wrong in seconds.  (But should the stallion be in the situation where it can cause that much damage in the first place?  That's really the question for me.  Nothing to do with whether or not a person would be justified in walloping it when things got out of hand).
		
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In reply- this was a home bred stallion- spoilt. It was just an arsey knob, who used his teeth/feet to get what it wanted 9/10. All the stables on that yard had metal barred top doors. This div of a horse was to have its door shut at all times,  if she was on the yard or any clients. (all horses had these shut of a nightime (no idea why- yard policy). Someone had forgotten to shut it. The lady in the wheelchair WAS the YM......

This horse had turnout, and the very best of everything, just NO manners. If it were mine I would have a) had its nuts off if that did nothing to improve it it would have been PTS- nasty peice of work.


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## lexiedhb (4 June 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			Can we go back to a post on page 22 or thereabouts. Someone told a story about a stallion dragging someone out of a wheel chair and into its box where it trampled her.

I was first horrified by the tale, but as it expanded, I've come to a different view, notwithstanding I wouldn't like to see anyone hurt or killed.
But this stallion, known to be nasty. A stick kept near his door. The incident with this woman was apparently not an accident as someone had forgotten to close the top door. (was this Cptrayes old man, a serial door opener).

My point is that no wonder this stallion was nasty, kept in a box, top door shut people shouldn't keep any horse let alone a stallion in these conditions.

The responsibility for this horse and his conditions was the yard manager, who was the person who ended up being hurt.

Perhaps if the stallion had been treated more humainly in the first instance she would not have been hurt.

People very often are the architects of their own misfortune.
		
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INCORRECT- the top door was metal bars- hoss was perfectly capable of seeing what was going on. All the horses on this yard had these doors shut of a night (do not know why yard policy) This horse had turnout every single day, plus holidays out 24/7, plus ridden exercise. 
In order not to get bitten when leading said arse, it was led with a short stick- kept by its stable, as said hoss had 110% more respect for you carrying a stick than without- at least it kept all four legs on the floor, instead of waving 2 at you.
Please tell me what is INHUMANE about that?


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## brighteyes (4 June 2011)

Shilasdair said:



			I never hit my horses 
Instead, when they ignore my leg when riding I like to take my (hefty) legs off their sides completely, then swing them in for a giant thump.
I am sure they probably have bruises on their rib cage, but at least they don't get marked (as they can from whips).
I also have a Monty Roberts wip w o p - and can give them a good bashing with the knotty part of it.
If they don't respond to that, then I assume they are not suited to be riding horses, and sell them to Potters so another horse can benefit from the good home I offer instead.
I never really hit them though, if you mean with a whip.
S 

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Ha - you posted while I was compiling!

when they ignore my leg when riding I like to take my (hefty) legs off their sides completely, then swing them in for a giant thump. I did used to but one of my hips is dodgy now, possibly due to this.

 also have a Monty Roberts wip w o p - and can give them a good bashing with the knotty part of it.  Mine's a leadrope, clip removed, knot made - not ring legal and a bit gung-ho and amateur-looking during application.  Effective though!

If they don't respond to that, then I assume they are not suited to be riding horses, and sell them to Potters so another horse can benefit from the good home I offer instead.  I am too soft (or am I?) and continue to force ponio to lead a harrassed and clearly dreadful life at my home instead of serving him up on a plate (in France) or retiring him to blimpdom.


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## Tinypony (4 June 2011)

tallyho! said:



			What I don't get is everyone arguing about dangerous stallions, kicking shetlands but there's tb's out there getting whipped across the finishing line and no-one bats an eyelid.
		
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That's rubbish though isn't it?  )
Lots of people on here do more than bat eyelids about that.  We've got people here who write letters, sign petitions and many boycott racing completely.  Every time I'm invited to join a Grand National sweepstake I make my views known.


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## Tinypony (4 June 2011)

lexiedhb said:



			In reply- this was a home bred stallion- spoilt. It was just an arsey knob, who used his teeth/feet to get what it wanted 9/10. All the stables on that yard had metal barred top doors. This div of a horse was to have its door shut at all times,  if she was on the yard or any clients. (all horses had these shut of a nightime (no idea why- yard policy). Someone had forgotten to shut it. The lady in the wheelchair WAS the YM......

This horse had turnout, and the very best of everything, just NO manners. If it were mine I would have a) had its nuts off if that did nothing to improve it it would have been PTS- nasty peice of work.
		
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What would "the best of everything" be from the point of view of the horse I wonder?  What works for one stallion, or any horse, isn't going to always be right for all.
They bred it, they created the situation it was in, they were responsible for the lady getting injured because they didn't take adequate measures to prevent it.  
I agree, given the situation the horse was in at the time of this incident, I too would have it's nuts off, give it a chance and if it didn't work have it put to sleep.  There's something seriously wrong mentally or physically or both for a horse to get like that, put the poor creature out of it's misery.  Keep passers-by and handlers safe because next time someone could die.  Who would breed from an animal like this anyway?


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## teagreen (4 June 2011)

Tinypony said:



			That's rubbish though isn't it?  )
Lots of people on here do more than bat eyelids about that.  We've got people here who write letters, sign petitions and many boycott racing completely.  Every time I'm invited to join a Grand National sweepstake I make my views known.
		
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Racing has the best regulation for the whip in the equestrian world. Jockeys get banned for overuse of the whip, even if the horse shows absolutely no ill effects from its use (and the whip itself is specially designed and 100x more humane than your average thin riding crop), however I've seen horses marked at local unaff SJ competitions when they are hit out of pure anger and no one says anything. 

Saying 'no one bats an eyelid' is total rubbish - stewards watch every single race, every single day of the year looking for overuse of the whip. I'm sure if they regulated local competitions as stringently as the regulate racing, a lot of people would find themselves unable to compete.

What I still don't get is that there are people who would NEVER hit a horse if it, for example, napped at a gate, but they'd happily give it a good thump in the ribs with their heel.

ETA: I was at a show today and a horse came in to jump that was being a nappy b*gger, it didn't want to leave the collecting ring and its friends. What I think it needed was a sharp smack and told to get on with it, but for 5 minutes the girl just dug into it with her boots instead. Eventually she gave it a wallop and it got on with it. I'm not sure what some of you lot would have done - just given up when the horse said "Nah, not today mate, I'll just stick with my mates"?


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## lexiedhb (4 June 2011)

Tinypony said:



			What would "the best of everything" be from the point of view of the horse I wonder?  What works for one stallion, or any horse, isn't going to always be right for all.
They bred it, they created the situation it was in, they were responsible for the lady getting injured because they didn't take adequate measures to prevent it.  
I agree, given the situation the horse was in at the time of this incident, I too would have it's nuts off, give it a chance and if it didn't work have it put to sleep.  There's something seriously wrong mentally or physically or both for a horse to get like that, put the poor creature out of it's misery.  Keep passers-by and handlers safe because next time someone could die.  Who would breed from an animal like this anyway?
		
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Well like I have said- he was not shut in 24/7, had turnout everyday, and holidays OUT 24/7, had every check known to man, back, teeth, brain etc. Was kept to the highest standard. I think he would have just liked to be chucked in a feild and had no human contact at all, but that was/is not feesible for 99% of the captive horse population.

Entirely agree with your last paragraph- sadly he was someones "baby"


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## AndySpooner (4 June 2011)

lexiedhb, I have no idea why your stallion behaved like he did.

A lot has to do with attitude and putting the time in with difficult horses rather than just managing them after a fashion.

I note that you refer to this horse as arse and gobshite, did you do this before the accident or has he never been a favourite of yours.


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## AndySpooner (4 June 2011)

Another assumption creeping in here is, if you won't beat them, you must be kicking ***** out of their ribs.

Oh really.


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## lexiedhb (4 June 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			lexiedhb, I have no idea why your stallion behaved like he did.

A lot has to do with attitude and putting the time in with difficult horses rather than just managing them after a fashion.

I note that you refer to this horse as arse and gobshite, did you do this before the accident or has he never been a favourite of yours.
		
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Not mine! If he had have been balls would have been the first thing to go, and failing any improvement, if mine he would have been PTS, as quite frankly he was nasty to be around.

Yes I refered to him as alot of "names" prior to and after the accident.

Do not get me wrong- he was manageable but you had to know him. Any new members of staff had to shadow someone who knew him before being allowed to deal with him alone. He had been given all the time in the world, in differing settings. Including several people attampting to gain his trust through nicey nicey approaches- I imagine they still bear the scars.

I think he was very unusual in his behaviour in that he could be sweetness and light one minute, then switch to satans horse the next- for no reason apparent to the human eye.

Please also understand this horse was not beaten- in fact the above mentioned scenario is the only time I ever actually hit this stallion.


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## Indy (4 June 2011)

cptrayes said:



			So tell me what you would do if other people use the door and you cannot be absolutely certain to be there? ANYONE can do what you do if they have complete control over the door. I don't.
		
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Ok, I see your point with that.  I know when we are leading corn back we can't keep the shutter door shut - we'd be spending half our time jumping on and off tractors.  So we did the radical thing of putting up a fence and gate between the stables and the grain shed.  Farmyards are probably equally as dangerous the shetlands as unsoaked sugarbeet, perhaps if she ever gets out onto the yard again I should run her over with a tractor......just so she realises it's a bad place to be.


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## Amaranta (4 June 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			lexiedhb, I have no idea why your stallion behaved like he did.

A lot has to do with attitude and putting the time in with difficult horses rather than just managing them after a fashion.

I note that you refer to this horse as arse and gobshite, did you do this before the accident or has he never been a favourite of yours.
		
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Oh FGS Andy give it a rest with the patronising garbage please.

You DO NOT know the horse and you obviously have not read the posts properly, I doubt very very much that you have ever been in a position where you have ever had to handle a bolshy stallion, regardless of what you would like us to believe.  

Time and again people have asked you what you would do in certain situations and time and time again you answer ambiguously or don't answer at all.

You seem to believe that you walk on water - sorry I am not convinced


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## asyouwish (4 June 2011)

That stallion sounds like a nasty one, seen a few before some were like yours and nice then nasty an some were just plain nasty, the need to cover or dominate everything just taking them over, wasnt nice for them or for us 

I have given horses a smack with a whip to get them to listen tomy other aids and repeated it again if they didnt catch it the first time.

As for racing whips after being hit with one I think I would prefer this to a normal whip and having attended race meetings and watched for the beating that are so readily applied I have to say I was disappointed, I didnt see one good beating in a whole day 

Each to their own as they say


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## AndySpooner (4 June 2011)

Amaranta, getting a bit touchy are we, lol. I have read quite a bit of your bulls**te and crap in the past.

I tend not to give a lot of advice, as you say I don't know these horses, nor do you.


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## Amaranta (4 June 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			Amaranta, getting a bit touchy are we, lol. I have read quite a bit of your bulls**te and crap in the past.

I tend not to give a lot of advice, as you say I don't know these horses, nor do you.
		
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Whatever Andy 

No I don't know these horses either but have not offered an opinion purely because of that, does not seem to have stopped you though


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## teagreen (4 June 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			Amaranta, getting a bit touchy are we, lol. I have read quite a bit of your bulls**te and crap in the past.

I tend not to give a lot of advice, as you say I don't know these horses, nor do you.
		
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I am genuinely interested in how you would respond to situations! You didn't really give me an answer to my last question, but I'll try again..

You're at a show. Your horse is fine at home leaving his friends, but he refuses to go forwards in the ring when it's your turn to jump, napping instead back to the collecting ring. What would you do?


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## Hollycatt (4 June 2011)

Can anyone EVER say they know what they will do in a certain situation?  I know there are things I have said I would never do, but I have.  Even the most experienced person can act in a completely unexpected way. When I did a CPR course, the instructor said the first time she was in a real life CPR situation she forgot everything and paniced.  She had taught CPR for years.

I do have quite a few friends who do parelli and natural horsemanship and are very anti hitting (though I think actually they use a lot of bullying as opposed to positive reinforcement).  One did end up kicking his horse in the stomache when it ripped the shirt off his back.  I am pretty sure he never though he would do that, but when push came to shove and he was in danger he did.


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## brighteyes (4 June 2011)

Do you think a rider's dig in the ribs given to a nappy horse is equivalent in its capacity to a double barrelled kick to the same from a fieldmate during a squabble?  Most of the stuff delivered in earnest by squabbling horses that I have witnessed far outweighs the 'ticklings' most get from their owners.  

Also, the compliant even-tempered horses of Andy Spooner's (experience) - would they be the bottom of the pecking order of real herds since he has no apparent trouble keeping them in their subordinate position in his relationship with them. If not, do they ever try and assert dominance over him and/or their equine companions?


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## aimeetb (4 June 2011)

Damnation said:



			Bye then! 

P.s Its only a forum.. I get ignored all the time, its life!
		
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I was just kidding, just trying to lighten the mood! LOL


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## aimeetb (4 June 2011)

Wagtail said:



			LMAO 

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YAY!! Someone got it! xxx


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## aimeetb (4 June 2011)

IHK said:



			LOL Aimietb!  Did you write anything sensible?!
		
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Erm, yeah, everything I said was sensible...I am infalible!! LOL


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## aimeetb (4 June 2011)

Enfys said:



			I don't mean a slap when he's bitten you, or a "hey! buck your ideas up" tickle with a schooling whip, I mean a real "Oi, behave yourself!" type wallop.
Is it ever warranted?
		
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Enfys, did you ever think this question would spark this response??


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## AndySpooner (4 June 2011)

Teagreen, this is a game no one wins, and like this thread the goal posts will change after every answer.

When that sort of thing happens to me, I ask myself, what am I doing differently?

It could be something as easy as your own excitement or nerves.

I certainly wouldn't wack him or kick the sides out of him. If he wouldn't go through into the ring is probably take him home and do a lot more with him, to build his confidence.

I am not really interested in winning competitions so going home would not be that big a deal to me.


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## Enfys (4 June 2011)

aimeetb said:



			Enfys, did you ever think this question would spark this response?? 

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Nooooooo  I am really quite startled by it, but it makes interesting reading nonetheless, I am also impressed that something this length hasn't plummetted into too much arguing and insults. 

There are a couple of members who are usually quite vociferous and are conspicuous by their absence I am *very* surprised they haven't commented, thought I might have missed them, but have just checked and they haven't.


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## eahotson (4 June 2011)

One of the best people I have ever seen with horses was a horse driver. He has competed to a very high standard and broken in horses of many different types, ages and breeds.I have never heard him riase his VOICE let alone his hand to a horse but they all left him with beautiful manners.My riding instructor, done the badminton thing etc. also says violence is NEVER acceptable and that many horses learn to be aggressive because they have been treated aggressively.


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## Megibo (4 June 2011)

tallyho! said:



			What I don't get is everyone arguing about dangerous stallions, kicking shetlands but there's tb's out there getting whipped across the finishing line and no-one bats an eyelid.
		
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i think it was tea green who gave the long drawn out answer to this so saved me time! but the horses arent actually hit the whips are brushed against the horses to encourage them to try harder and they jockeys are watched for whip misuse.

i dont agree with every aspect of racing although the majority of the horses are treated well.
the issue is the thousands of thoroughbreds churned out every year for the sport, most of them slaughtered abandoned or mistreated when they lose their racing worth-some not even making it to the track and only a few get to be rehomed with lovely people. that however, is an entirely different issue.


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## team barney (4 June 2011)

lexiedhb said:



			I think he was very unusual in his behaviour in that he could be sweetness and light one minute, then switch to satans horse the next- for no reason apparent to the human eye.
.
		
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In my experience these are the hardest horses to deal with.  

I'd prefer handle a just plain nasty temperament as those can usually be improved as the anger usually (not always) stems from mistreatment, and they often learn to accept kindness.  

Jekyll and Hyde characters are a very different kettle of fish, they are near on impossible to deal with.  These horses don't suffer from mood swings but entire personality changes, moody horses are not a big problem.  

I genuinely believe that in some very rare cases these horses do suffer from a form of psychosis.


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## lexiedhb (4 June 2011)

team barney said:



			In my experience these are the hardest horses to deal with.  

I'd prefer handle a just plain nasty temperament as those can usually be improved as the anger usually (not always) stems from mistreatment, and they often learn to accept kindness.  

Jekyll and Hyde characters are a very different kettle of fish, they are near on impossible to deal with.  These horses don't suffer from mood swings but entire personality changes, moody horses are not a big problem.  

I genuinely believe that in some very rare cases these horses do suffer from a form of psychosis.
		
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Yep- hence he was always walked with a whip- some days it was like walking a dog to the field- others you dodged teeth the whole way. Like you say so much easier to deal with just the one personality!


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## Natch (4 June 2011)

Ok, haven't got the energy to read all these pages, but has cptrays found a way to positively reinforce a horse to not go into the feed room yet? Because it CAN be done. The 20 sacks of feed she buys can also be found metal pony-proof containers (if the huge equestrian yards that don't have cats and have tiny feed rooms can manage it anyone can), or another home, should she so wish, which I suspect would be a lot more effective than kicking the pony up the bottom and thinking that will be effective against the lure of food for the rest of pony's life.

I'm still in the kick the ill husband up the bottom 3 times for failing to shut the door camp  

My position on the broad subject? I have smacked horses before, and I'm not proud about it. I will probably find cause to do it again someday. However I'd rather, wherever possible not use violence in training and handling horses. I do think its effective if done very correctly. I just think that it is so very over used by people making excuses about how necessary it is, and I have seen so many more examples of it done badly more than ever done well, by experienced horse people.

One of the most well respected horse people I know quoted to me that "violence is where knowledge ends". I don't know who she was quoting, but I agree very much with it.  For me, horsemanship is a continual learning process and I've learnt so many more techniques now that I just don't have cause to use violence very often. I'm not saying I'll never use it again, and I'm sure everyone who is pro-smacking on here is of course naturally not of limited knowledge, and that they all use punishment as an effective tool, whilst knowing about and electing not to use other methods. Each to their own


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## cptrayes (4 June 2011)

Naturally said:



			Because it CAN be done.
		
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Tell us all how then, that it is possible to use a positive means of reinforcement to create a negative acting effect? How do you use positive reinforcement to teach any horse NOT to go somewhere? Put your money where your mouth is.


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## Natch (4 June 2011)

Sure. Put very crudely, Make sure the food isn't accessible to the pony, even with the open door. Praise and Reward a.n. Other behaviour when pony goes towards door, maybe a stand in the doorway, maybe head in a different direction. Ignore all other behaviour. 

If you really can't make it so that pony can't reward himself when in there, (not in the original brief but perhaps apparent now) you either need a damn sight more tempting (than the food inside) treat , a highly aversive and consistent punishment, or to remove temptation all together via a barrier other than a sometimes open door.


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## cptrayes (4 June 2011)

That is not training the pony not to go into the feed room, Naturally. It's training him to go somewhere else when you want him to, but it would not serve to make the feed room a negative place.  

Don't feel too bad, no-one else has been able to suggest how to do it either. That's because it is, in fact, impossible to create a negative reaction to a place by using positive reinforcement, or I would have done it. 

Neither have you or anyone else appeared to read what I have now written many times. I do not need "consistent punishment". ONE occasion has been enough to make him very hesitant about approaching the open door (ironically, other than when I am in there, when he will stand at the door watching me clean tack or, of course, put up feeds).

Can we shut up about this pony now, everyone must be SO bored with it and I need to get back on my broomstick


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## tallyho! (4 June 2011)

Tazhazzamoose said:



			i think it was tea green who gave the long drawn out answer to this so saved me time! but the horses arent actually hit the whips are brushed against the horses to encourage them to try harder and they jockeys are watched for whip misuse.

i dont agree with every aspect of racing although the majority of the horses are treated well.
the issue is the thousands of thoroughbreds churned out every year for the sport, most of them slaughtered abandoned or mistreated when they lose their racing worth-some not even making it to the track and only a few get to be rehomed with lovely people. that however, is an entirely different issue.
		
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Pffffffffffffffffffffttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt!!!!!!!!!!!!!!      Absolute Bo888cks! Where did you read that?? The TIMES dear???

Aren't actually hit?? Have you ever worked on a NHY? You ever had to hibiscrub some missing fur and bleeding skin?? No?

I'm sorry no matter how well loved the horse or how well run the yard... I kept seeing blood coming off the track til I left in 1992. I can't imagine much has changed - everything is more expensive and the top bosses keep getting paid more. If anything the grooms care most about these horses. Once a jockey jumps on he's in it for the cup unless he's got his own stock. Not many are humane even though more these days are getting more savvy about these things... it's a business not a pet in racing.


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## Natch (4 June 2011)

You started, and continued it  I suggested a perfectly adequate way of achieving the end goal. 

Anyhoo, I must bid you good night and get back to my own broomstick, i'm sure I left it tied to a tree somewhere around here...


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## Stacey6897 (4 June 2011)

Most horses that have been responsibly trained from the startknow the meaning of the word "No", or even "BAAAAAAD Horse" 

I once had a homebred terror, as a foal, the previous owner thought it was cute to have this little orange foal put his front feet on her shoulders, by the time he was a 3 year old 15hh brat it wasn't funny anymore, he was dangerous, I called him the Ginger Ninja for his accurate kicking, would go into attack mode, running at people with mouth open, ears flat, pawing, then spin and back up, this is the sort of instance where a smack is warranted, and turned out to be pretty useful.  After a bit of training I could take him to a show and he was a big cuddly softy.

He didn't have a brain tumour, he just had no manners and a serious sense of entitlement and did actually need a smack.  I saw him at shows a few years later, had a chat with the owner, said she he was still a big softy, so that was nice.

Keep in mind that no treatment we can dish out is as brutal as what they do to each other, the only difference is they don't do it in anger, sometimes hitting a horse is necessary, losing your rag is not.


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## tallyho! (4 June 2011)

*Decides to also get on her broomstick and fly away from this rather bizarre expo*


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## tabithakat64 (4 June 2011)

I can count the number of times I've hit a horse in my 23 years around them on a couple of fingers each of those times and I believe it was completely necessary.
I think on the odd occasion a proper smack at the right moment is useful as a repremaned or to prevent bad behaviour that may become dangerous.


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## Alyth (5 June 2011)

Naturally - the quote you want is "violence begins where knowledge ends" and is from Charles de Knuffy.....


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## Mearas (5 June 2011)

Alyth said:



			Naturally - the quote you want is "violence begins where knowledge ends" and is from Charles de Knuffy.....
		
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Think you will find this quote in Xenophon 400BC and later in the Gettysberg Address by Abraham Lincoln


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## Alyth (5 June 2011)

Must be a very useful quote then!!!


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## AndySpooner (5 June 2011)

Brighteyes, I understand what you mean when talking about horses like mine, but they didn't start that way. People always assume that well behaved compliant horses somehow just appear, but it takes training.
Just spent a couple of hours with a horse that has had plenty of specialization training, but no foundation training so its back to the drawing board for him
In the horse only situation both our Arab and QH are quite high in the pecking order, locally and if they are turned in with others appear to take the lead. It's when they are being ridden or handled that they behave as they should having been trained to behave that way.


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## eahotson (5 June 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			Brighteyes, I understand what you mean when talking about horses like mine, but they didn't start that way. People always assume that well behaved compliant horses somehow just appear, but it takes training.
Just spent a couple of hours with a horse that has had plenty of specialization training, but no foundation training so its back to the drawing board for him
In the horse only situation both our Arab and QH are quite high in the pecking order, locally and if they are turned in with others appear to take the lead. It's when they are being ridden or handled that they behave as they should having been trained to behave that way.
		
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I agree there Andy.People assume that because you have a well mannered, well schooled pony/horse it is (to put it in the words of an aquaintance of mine) a ready brek pony.No one ever thinks of the amount of work that goes in to producing that type.


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## team barney (5 June 2011)

eahotson said:



			I agree there Andy.People assume that because you have a well mannered, well schooled pony/horse it is (to put it in the words of an aquaintance of mine) a ready brek pony.No one ever thinks of the amount of work that goes in to producing that type.
		
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Horses are born with their temperaments, they can appear to change throughout their lives depending on the treatment they receive but the basic nature of the animal remains fundamentally the same.  

When you have dealt with a lot of un-handled youngsters you realise that most of them are born incredibly compliant and only become awkward due to mishandling.  

Some are born difficult and need very specialised handling, but these are rare.  They have the potential to be very difficult animals but with correct management they can become useful partners.

Then there are those extremely rare creatures who are born schizophrenic.  I have discussed this with equine behaviour experts and vets and they have mostly agreed that it is perfectly plausible for a horse to suffer from mental illness.


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## Wagtail (5 June 2011)

team barney said:



			Horses are born with their temperaments, they can appear to change throughout their lives depending on the treatment they receive but the basic nature of the animal remains fundamentally the same.  

When you have dealt with a lot of un-handled youngsters you realise that most of them are born incredibly compliant and only become awkward due to mishandling.  

Some are born difficult and need very specialised handling, but these are rare.  They have the potential to be very difficult animals but with correct management they can become useful partners.

Then there are those extremely rare creatures who are born schizophrenic.  I have discussed this with equine behaviour experts and vets and they have mostly agreed that it is perfectly plausible for a horse to suffer from mental illness.
		
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Completely agree. It is extremely rare to find a truly nasty or psycho horse that has not been made that way by poor handling, but they DO exist. There are some horses out there tha are just born that way.


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## fidleyspromise (5 June 2011)

There have been a lot of thoughts aired on this thread and for the most part, has been interesting to see responses and situations.  I was lucky enough to start out at a riding school that had upwards of 70 horses when I arrived and many more went in and out of those gates in the following 11 years.  

I saw all sorts of horses and I am grateful not to have seen any like a few posters here describe.  Horses that were simply nasty, differing personalities etc. I think the main difference with the ones that I knew were those that hadn't been disciplined in any manner and so they simply walked over you until they learned that wasn't the way to do it. - Join-Up was used a lot with the newer horses to the herd depending on the issues but that didn't mean a smack wasn't also given.  

Most of the issues we saw came from novice owners that had bought an unsuitable horse and simply couldn;t see the danger they were putting themselves in.  One instance was one pony that would barge over the top of you when bringing him in.  His owner thought he knew it all and read various natural horsemanship books.  A little knowledge was dangerous in this instance, I felt.  One day the YO brought the pony in, and was amazed at the lack of manners.  She gave the horse a smack and roared at him.  Next day, owner brought him in and was delighted that pony was an angel to bring in.  He wouldn't take on board our advice though.
Same pony on a hack with owners daughter would turn and bolt home.  I started to ride him - simply because I was horseless and he needed exercise - well the pony tried twice to turn and I was quick enough to turn him back the same direction.  I found him easy to ride and fun.  Was I a good rider?  God no. I was simply firm and consistant.  After a few hacks, owners daughter took him out and managed to keep him out.

There was also the instance of my highland pony.  She'd only arrived and I decided to do a bit of work with her.  She was on livery to be backed and sold.  One day she managed to escape from field and got into feed room.  I had a headcollar and didn't know her well plus she barged over you, and kicked.  The part of the feed room she was in simpy had cm space either side of her.  Not enough space for my body! I couldn't get near her head and it was at that moment in a freezer munching on bags of happy hoof and chaff.   Only safe way I could see to get her out was one whap on her rump with head collar - staying well back - pony gave a start, backed out and headcollar was put on safely.
It turns out she doesn't/didn't kick people and that was rumours but I didn't know that.  
She also had a novice owner that bought her as an unhandled 3yr old because she was a "steady, highland pony".

This has turned into an essay so I'm stopping here. - I will say though, I'm always looking for other methods to add to my toolbox.


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## amandap (5 June 2011)

Horses might be born with a temperament but that can be 'spoilt' by humans imo.

Horses are not born with 'manners' towards humans or ready trained either.
I'm another who agrees with Andy Spooner on the work that goes into producing a quiet responsive horse is often overlooked. Luck doesn't come into it imo.

I am also one who believes that the majority of nasty horses are made not born and that a truly nasty horse born that way is very rare or there is a medical reason such as a brain tumour.


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## lassiesuca (5 June 2011)

SophieLouBee said:



			My horse gets a whack most days tbh, he's big, rude and takes the pee. He'll barge you right over if you don't assert yourself, I shout first, then failing that he gets a smack, and as hard as I belt him, it still must feel like a gnat on his giant ass anyways. I hold the whip with him when the farrier comes, and he usually gets at least one belt because, again, rude, and takes the farrier, tools and all with him when he goes. If we have all hell breaking loose, someone getting cornered over food etc, I get the lunge whip out and crack it.

Apart from him I don't need to really smack the others, they know as soon as my voice raises that I'v had quite enough as whatever is going on. When they have a tiff in the field I lean over the gate, give a menacing stare and shout 'OI', they all stop dead and pull the most sweet innocent faces, as if nothing was happening, then they skulk off and eat. 

So yeah, I smack my horses, when they deserve it, and guess what, they all still think I'm their biological mother and follow me around the field like the pied piper! Love and respect go very well together! 

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If you have to whack your horse daily, have you perhaps looked at your current training techniques and questioned why they're not working? 

My youngster used to bite, kick, barge. The lot. I've never hit him or shouted at him and the behaviours have been trained out. The same for another horse I've worked with and friends who've used the same training method as me/or similar.


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## lassiesuca (5 June 2011)

cptrayes said:



			That is not training the pony not to go into the feed room, Naturally. It's training him to go somewhere else when you want him to, but it would not serve to make the feed room a negative place.  

Don't feel too bad, no-one else has been able to suggest how to do it either. *That's because it is, in fact, impossible to create a negative reaction to a place by using positive reinforcement, or I would have done it. 

*Neither have you or anyone else appeared to read what I have now written many times. I do not need "consistent punishment". ONE occasion has been enough to make him very hesitant about approaching the open door (ironically, other than when I am in there, when he will stand at the door watching me clean tack or, of course, put up feeds).

Can we shut up about this pony now, everyone must be SO bored with it and I need to get back on my broomstick 

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I disagree with the statement which I've boldfaced. 
We can use something called Counter Conditioning, with our horses. For example; 

When I train my horse, I'm very limited as to where I can work. I have no school, or nowhere concrete, or no stable to work in. Just a choice of two-three fields, all full of grass, even the tying areas, there is grass within 4 feet of each 'non-grassy' bit. 

My horse used to be very 'rude' with food. He used to not understand that he had to wait for it, for example if someone else had their tea, he'd paw, rear, kick. If another horse had a haynet, he'd break the tying rack and steal their hay. Whacking him could of perhaps solved it, but I chose to not use that, because in my experience, unless you're extremely good with timing, then I could of punished him for something totally different. 

The first thing I wanted to do, was to teach him respect with food, so I began clicker training him, and used food to train him to respect it. He would bombard me if I entered the field with a treat and woudl chase me until he got it. Now, he knows he has to wait, and earn his treat. Just like someone has to earn their salary. They work hard, they earn the treat. It's much more positive and also an effective way to train because he is motivated by food, so I used the thing which motivated him most to get the most out of his work. 

With hay situation, it used to be a nightmare, the moment I got him in, he'd run away and either run to the hayshed, or to a patch of grass. This is something we've been working on for a little while and now we've eradicated. 

What I did was counter condition him, he got a choice. He could eat the grass, or he could stay with me and play with his favourite ring and earn treats if he worked hard. He would follow me if I had food, now he waits and will earn it. I have gotten him to respect me, food and his environment and also himself. He can eat the grass if he wants to, but he can train with me, he soon decided that training with me is more fun. For example this video of me training him to stand still, note he's not tied up, has no headcollar on, in his field, I have a bumbag of treats and can walk away from him and he waits, his treats are low in sugar, only given in small quantities and pasture mix nuts, nothing special which makes him go crazy. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXVE6mDYSRU

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXVE6mDYSRU[/youtube]

I haven't got it on footage yet, but we've recently been working on fadign the clicker (i.e. he doesn't get rewarded AS often for these behaviours, he seems to do it now. It was the same with backing up, I decreased the rate of reinforcement because he now finds the behaviour 'rewarding'. He knows when to do it, and I tell him this). 

If he doesn't, he gets 'Ah ah' which stops a unwanted behaviour. Throughout some of the scarier moments with him, I've been able to make a safe exit. I appreciate there are some situations where it is needed (i.e. you're stuck in a corner or no other alternative), but for other behaviours, I prefer to be a bt more patient, ignore behaviours I dislike and highly praise the ones I do like.


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## babymare (5 June 2011)

in 41 years of horses - working traing free lance schooling working at HAPPA  im proud that i dont hit horses - a post at beginning spoke about rearing - my mare reared and spunned and was classed as dangerous before i bought her - she was going blind!!!!! she was battered before i bought her - now the unrideable dangerous mare is a sweetie riden hacked out a gallop and jumped - sorry been bitten kicked barged but yep voice tone will change body language will change but will never hit a horse - they act for a reason its down to us to find out that reason - and more often its them saying im not happy - back sore saddle hurts bit hurts you put me to that jump wrong -or simply they have lost confidence - its down to us to sit back and think ok lets deal with this as a horse cause happily they are not machines and like humans they get it wrong lol  xx


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## cptrayes (5 June 2011)

Lassiesuca yet again that is NOT an example of making a place (or a behaviour) a negative thing with positive reinforcement. It is an example of making a DIFFERENT behaviour a positive thing with positive reinforcement.  It would do nothing to stop a horse doing a behaviour when you were not there to offer the alternative course of action. I could keep that particular pony from doing anything just by standing in the yard, because he so loves being near me when I am around.

I still maintain that it is impossible to create a negative reaction to a particular place with positive reinforcement.


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## babymare (5 June 2011)

aman and lassie here here for what you said - sorry to often children are taught if no responsne then whack it if it refuses hit it ( sorry did you ride that jump right did you ask the right questions)- my dream hopefully to come true soon is buy a young one straight of mum and raise a well mannered horse to show and ride - and not one hand will be raised - just by thinking horse by understanding them and treating the baby as a horse - as said its so so so rare a horse is born bad its the human interaction that turns them bad - micheal peace is my hero and we need more of him


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## lassiesuca (5 June 2011)

babymare said:



			in 41 years of horses - working traing free lance schooling working at HAPPA  im proud that i dont hit horses - a post at beginning spoke about rearing - my mare reared and spunned and was classed as dangerous before i bought her - she was going blind!!!!! she was battered before i bought her - now the unrideable dangerous mare is a sweetie riden hacked out a gallop and jumped - sorry been bitten kicked barged but yep voice tone will change body language will change but will never hit a horse - they act for a reason its down to us to find out that reason - and more often its them saying im not happy - back sore saddle hurts bit hurts you put me to that jump wrong -or simply they have lost confidence - its down to us to sit back and think ok lets deal with this as a horse cause happily they are not machines and like humans they get it wrong lol  xx
		
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Good for you! I agree also. 

I think that 99% of all 'unwanted' incidences are the fault of the human/the horses environment. I saw someone on here said they 'Hit the horse to go over a bridge'. Yes, the horse did go over the bridge and I'm not saying it didn't, but did it go over through willingness or through the fear that he was going to get another clout? 

Perhaps I'm not normal for wanting my horse to do things through willingness and seeing it's not scary, apposed to feeling obliged to in fear of the consequences. Not the way I want him to be raised.


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## lassiesuca (5 June 2011)

cptrayes said:



			Lassiesuca yet again that is NOT an example of making a place (or a behaviour) a negative thing with positive reinforcement. It is an example of making a DIFFERENT behaviour a positive thing with positive reinforcement.  It would do nothing to stop a horse doing a behaviour when you were not there to offer the alternative course of action. I could keep that particular pony from doing anything just by standing in the yard, because he so loves being near me when I am around.

I still maintain that it is impossible to create a negative reaction to a particular place with positive reinforcement.
		
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Oh sorry I mis-read your statement. 

No, but you can use positive reinforcement to make them chose something else


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## Spyda (5 June 2011)

SophieLouBee said:
			
		


			My horse gets a whack most days tbh, he's big, rude and takes the pee. He'll barge you right over if you don't assert yourself, I shout first, then failing that he gets a smack, and as hard as I belt him, it still must feel like a gnat on his giant ass anyways. I hold the whip with him when the farrier comes, and he usually gets at least one belt because, again, rude, and takes the farrier, tools and all with him when he goes. If we have all hell breaking loose, someone getting cornered over food etc, I get the lunge whip out and crack it.
		
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lassiesuca said:



			If you have to whack your horse daily, have you perhaps looked at your current training techniques and questioned why they're not working?
		
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Have to agree. Even if good manners weren't instilled into him as a youngster it seems sad that he's doomed to be wolloped almost daily as part of his daily management. 

And as for saying... _"as hard as I belt him, it still must feel like a gnat on his giant ass anyways"_, bear in mind that a horse's skin is sensitive enough to feel a tiny fly land upon it.


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## lassiesuca (5 June 2011)

This is another thing; without attacking anyone or their beliefs, perhaps we should stop hurling insults at one another and question our own motives, our horses behaviours and then the effects in the long run. 

I was with someone once, who really hit their horse with a whip, it was really unpleasant to watch because all he did was put his head down. He was green, young and hadn't been taught anything before. It took him by surprise and she saw my face, I couldn't conceal my reaction, and she said ''Don't worry, it didn't hurt him, he probably didn't feel it''. 

This is something I've heard from people before, or ''It did him no harm''. So if this is the case (whether it hurts or not is another debate), if you belief it does them no harm or doesn't hurt them, why do you use it as a means of punishment? I'm not condoning hurting them (quite the opposite) but it's interesting because then what would be the point if your aim was to let them know that was unwanted and they will punished for it? 


Whether it hurts or not... hmm as Spyda has just so rightly said, hroses can feel a fly land on them. They are very sensitive, if we have a horse who has been schooled correctly, and has a light rider who uses very lightly in terms of contact and pressure, and is very subtle, and the horse responds, then it certainly raises the question about equine sensitivity. Of course, some respond differently like humans, it doesn't mean they still find it 'pleasant'. 

I rode my trainers Andalusian, and it was the most important lesson I learnt about riding- to become aware of my own body language and the littlest difference or shift in my weight will start a new behaviour. What was meant to be a nice collected trot around the school, turned into me going through extended trot, then passage, then Spanish Walk finished by a Levade. It was amazing to ride, but I'd only asked for a trot! What I'd done, was I'd let my lower leg slide forward an inch, and that was the cue to extend, a little more forward, we were in passage. I bought my leg back, but this time too far, and we got Spanish walk. It's amazing how sensitive they become.


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## cptrayes (5 June 2011)

babymare said:



			aman and lassie here here for what you said - sorry to often children are taught if no responsne then whack it if it refuses hit it ( sorry did you ride that jump right did you ask the right questions)- my dream hopefully to come true soon is buy a young one straight of mum and raise a well mannered horse to show and ride - and not one hand will be raised - just by thinking horse by understanding them and treating the baby as a horse - as said its so so so rare a horse is born bad its the human interaction that turns them bad - micheal peace is my hero and we need more of him 

Click to expand...

I bought one off the mother who I had seen born. He had never been mismanaged in his life and was never hit. His mother had shared her food with him and he had never been short of food. And one day, when I put his food on the floor, he picked me up by my arm and through three jumpers and a padded coat he broke the skin and made me bleed. I still have the scar.

I hope you are not sadly disillusioned when you find your perfect baby.


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## aimeetb (5 June 2011)

Enfys said:



			Nooooooo  I am really quite startled by it, but it makes interesting reading nonetheless, I am also impressed that something this length hasn't plummetted into too much arguing and insults. 

There are a couple of members who are usually quite vociferous and are conspicuous by their absence I am *very* surprised they haven't commented, thought I might have missed them, but have just checked and they haven't.
		
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You know, I was thinking the exact same thing! LOL


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## lassiesuca (5 June 2011)

Also; is it crueler to leave your horse tied up until someone shuts the feed room door or until to let him walk around the yard (you've said your husband has dangerous tools?), where there are potential hazards and if he goes near them gets kicked in the ribs !??! 

Or, do what most people do and keep your sack of sugarbeet in a safe, locked container. Not only does it prevent horses getting hold of it, but also to stop mice eating away at it. I get your husband is human, but we have goats at my yard, and I learnt that lesson when I bought a valuable piece of schoolwork to the yard and they ate it (my teacher didn't believe the 'sorry my goat at my coursework' excuse), and as a result, I've had to be extra vigilant in making sure I shut any gates, keep all bags out of their reach or in a secure place and too make sure I shut everything. Since then, I've not had any issues because I've got myself into a habit of keeping everything shut. 


In terms of solving the behaviour, I think you've obviously not taught your horse well. No disrespect at all (although impossible to avoid it ) I believe that if he still does it, and despite you beating the crap out of him hasn't solved it, you need to review your training program. For example, why don't you do some basic handling skills again? Go back to the beginning. Do leading, standing, backing up etc. Then I'd either let your horse in the field loose, or tie him up when around the yard and potentially hazardous dangers. If it's too much for him to resist the temptation, then simply don't put him in that situation. It was YOUR fault he got beaten and could of got hurt, whether you chose to accept the blame or not (or your husband) is your call, but he took a beating for your error. That's not fair. Yes, he could of been hurt, but jesus christ, all you had to do was pull him away from the feed sack. 

My goats have 'attacked' me (i.e. pushed me out the way) to get to a sack of feed in the past. They can be really set on eating the food, so I had to pull him out. Once he was out, I pushed him out the feedroom and shut the door. I didn't shout at him at all, because it would of been poorly timed and I'd fixed the problem. Making the mental note to never leave the door open. SInce then though, the goats have been in serious training to respect food


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## opinionuk (5 June 2011)

Never. My mare is a 4 year old mare from hell I work to introduce manners by body language and horsemanship but violence towards a horse or any animal is ever acceptable!


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## dressage.diva (5 June 2011)

I think it depends on the situation. I have a horse who was abused, he attacks you in his stable, if you ignore him, give him a stroke and just watch your back, he is fine! in fact now, with me he dose not even bother. However if you tell him off, hit him, scream at him, he will simply full on attack you, the more you fight him, the worse he will get. The only time he is dangerous is if you hit him. I also have a stallion 17hh warmblood, now there is no way he could go through day to day life with-out getting an occasional smack on the bum. I don't mean whacking him- he simply dose not need it. I mean an occasional smack to put him in his place when he even thinks about barging or biting otherwise he would walk all over you..


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## Serenity087 (6 June 2011)

I'm a middle ground smacker.

I refuse point blank to belt Dorey for hurting me.  She has, in 8 years, bitten twice and stomped on my feet on purpose twice (I know the difference as she's stepped on me by accident many more times and it doesn't hurt half as much!) and on all four occasions I can cite pain and discomfort.

The last time she bit me she ended up cowering and shaking more that I did.  I know she didn't mean to hurt me, she just wanted to say she was worried I would hurt her (hadn't touched her, as it happened!)

However, the middle ground stuff, barging, being a tit, ignoring my other aids - they don't go unpunished.  If I let her off with the middle ground then she'll start pushing the dangerous stuff to keep getting her own way!


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## Mike007 (6 June 2011)

Me, well I,m still learning about horses  ,have been for the last 55 years. It seems to me that the more I learn ,the less I need to resort to a whip.


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## Charliepony (6 June 2011)

Once my old pony reared up at my sister and lashed out with his front feet (he was a git, it was because she had his feed bucket) and I went to wallop him! A proper wallop... But I bloody well missed, and the little bugger was up the other end of the field by then  Damn pony.

That's the only time I went to give a proper good smack... I killed a horsefly on my boy's arse yesterday and he nearly chucked me off! So I don't make a habit of even gently smacking him (and it was really more of a firm pat on the bottom in the case of the horsefly) 

If one of mine went to bite me they'd get a prod with an elbow, if they kicked with intent probably something slightly more significant... I don't like carrying a stick either but I think that's more because I drop them constantly...


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## Alyth (6 June 2011)

I want a like button for Mike007!!  I have found it is better to do less sooner rather than more after the fact......if you can step in early and prevent the horse biting or kicking you are winning!!!  Consistently making the horse keep out of your bubble means he will soon learn to stay at arms length and not barge into you.  And that is just one small problem solved!!!


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## FanyDuChamp (6 June 2011)

Mike007 said:



			Me, well I,m still learning about horses  ,have been for the last 55 years. It seems to me that the more I learn ,the less I need to resort to a whip.
		
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This.
FDC


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## amandap (6 June 2011)

Mike007 said:



			Me, well I,m still learning about horses  ,have been for the last 55 years. It seems to me that the more I learn ,the less I need to resort to a whip.
		
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Yes. Short and sweet summing up. 

Btw. Thankyou for the 'like' earlier in the thread FDC.

Mta. Better make it clear that I did it the other way round. I decided that I didn't want to hit and I was then forced to find other ways of controlling my frustration and training horses. I feel I'm learning so much more about horses and myself.


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## templewood (6 June 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			Some very extreme cases here. Does anyone seriously think a horse with a 'brain tumor' or similar would take any notice of a bloke with a stick, the truth is no, the horse wouldn't feel it. So what chance a child, youngster or woman.(no matter how feisty).
		
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Not all the horses mentioned here had 'brain tumors'! When your a small 5' 3" female handling a 17.3hh CB x ID who knows exactly how big and strong he is, believe me, you have to instill some respect, otherwise you would literally get walked all over. A little tap just doesn't do it! On the other hand I've never whacked my PRE stallion, as he is very sensitive and would probably have a nervous breakdown! Usually just shouting at him has the desired effect, as he hates thinking he's been bad.

More horses have been spoiled by not having a whack when they needed it, than by having one when they didn't. I don't mean beating them up either.
You see horses all they time at DIY livery yards becoming unmanageable because they aren't taught what is unacceptable behaviour. They get the reputation of being difficult and are then sold from pillar to post, and end up being destroyed as they are dangerous.
What is kinder?


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## amandap (6 June 2011)

templewood said:



			When your a small 5' 3" female handling a 17.3hh CB x ID who knows exactly how big and strong he is, believe me, you have to instill some respect, otherwise you would literally get walked all over. A little tap just doesn't do it!
		
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Perhaps we need to think about what we mean by respect?  Do some mean fear/respect?

To me 'respect' comes from an understanding,clear, consistant leadership. I aim to have consistant 'manners' by consistant handling so I no longer get barged or pulled along as I have in the past.
I'm shorter than you templewood and my 16hh tb no longer bumps me or thinks about rushing over me if she's alarmed. I have never hit her or shouted at her. I have been very strict about asking her to step out of my space if she walks too close etc. etc. etc. She is the horse that has taught me the most about my failings and inconsistencies in handling and training.


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## georgiegirl (6 June 2011)

Not read all the replies but here is my two penneth worth.......

Things like napping, biting, kicking or to evade danger ie a ditch or car will all warrant a wallop - as will things like a dirty stop.

I think the saying 'spare the rod and spoil the child' applies absolutely to horses and a great deal of horses you see are allowed to walk all over their owners who take the attitude of 'mummys little darling can do no wrong'. Horses are large, dangerous animals and i think its only fair on horses and humans that the be handled and dealt with firmly but fairly.

That said....this is a world away from what people describe as 'beating'  - it is a grave error to hit a horse out of temper.


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## Wagtail (6 June 2011)

amandap said:



			Perhaps we need to think about what we mean by respect?  Do some mean fear/respect?

To me 'respect' comes from an understanding,clear, consistant leadership. I aim to have consistant 'manners' by consistant handling so I no longer get barged or pulled along as I have in the past.
I'm shorter than you templewood and my 16hh tb no longer bumps me or thinks about rushing over me if she's alarmed. I have never hit her or shouted at her. I have been very strict about asking her to step out of my space if she walks too close etc. etc. etc. She is the horse that has taught me the most about my failings and inconsistencies in handling and training.
		
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I am against giving horses a good wallop. However, other horses will do far more than that to one another. And yes, with a horse, there is a mixture of fear with the respect. I recently put a gelding in with an established herd of three others. He was next to them getting introduced for 2 weeks first. When I put him in, he was immediately boss of two of the other geldings, but the existing leader refused to move over for him and whack! Huge kick to the thigh that needed veterinary treatment. Now the subordinate horses scatter as soon as this gelding walks into their space. It is a fear response and yes, they also respect him. Now he doesn't even need to put his ears back. They just leap immediately out of his way. They also all share some mutual grooming with him too though and the herd is peaceful.

So whilst I am against hitting horses in general, I am not against the idea that it may have its place if a horse really steps out of line, especially if its aggressive. But the thought of someone hitting their horse every day, like someone on here has said they do, just disgusts me. That horse does not respect her if she needs to do that every day. That is plain abuse.


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## grey velvet (6 June 2011)

i would only ever hit my horse on the shoulder hard if she misbehaved whilst i was schooling her!  xx


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## cptrayes (6 June 2011)

lassiesuca said:



			you've said your husband has dangerous tools?
		
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No I didn't.




lassiesuca said:



			my teacher didn't believe the 'sorry my goat at my coursework' excuse
		
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You're young, obviously. When you are my age you will realise that the world is not as black and white as you think it is. 





lassiesuca said:



			In terms of solving the behaviour, I think you've obviously not taught your horse well. No disrespect at all (although impossible to avoid it ) I believe that if he still does it
		
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He does not still do it, did you not read what I wrote. 

I have taught him excellently. Everyone loves him because he is so nice, and he loves me. He will do anything for me, untied, including trimming his feet. Any time that I am in sight, he comes to be with me even if it is just to stand by my side. Mostly he loves a back scratch and a mouth massage.



lassiesuca said:



			, and despite you beating the crap out of him
		
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I did not beat the crap out of him. I kicked him 3 times on his backside through a 3 inch thick winter coat with a Harry Hall polyurethane boot with thin soles and no toe-cap through which I could clearly feel how much force I was using. 



lassiesuca said:



			him hasn't solved it
		
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it has, you just don't want to hear it.



lassiesuca said:



			he took a beating for your error.
		
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He did not take a beating. It was my error. But unlike you, I know that Shetland ponies are big escape artists and that humans cannot be guaranteed not to make mistakes. I made a choice that the safest thing to do was to make any place with food in it that he should not have an uncomfortable place for him to be. As a result, he asks permission before entering any of the three open stables as well, in case there is a feed waiting for a horse which is just walking into the yard for breakfast or tea. 



lassiesuca said:



			That's not fair
		
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Life is not fair. Get used to it or you have a hard time in store as you get older.







Now can we PLEASE shut up about this pony, it's all been said and I am fed up with boring people by wanting to correct later posts to put the record straight. Besides, I have newts to catch and toads to de-eye so that I can put them in my cauldron.


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## amandap (6 June 2011)

Wagtail said:



			I am against giving horses a good wallop. However, other horses will do far more than that to one another. And yes, with a horse, there is a mixture of fear with the respect.
		
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I am a firm believer in learning about horses and how they interact with each other as part of my learning. However, I am not a horse and I know my horses know I am not a horse, so replicating horse/horse behaviour is not my bible or aim. My feeling is that we don't see or know enough about what led up to horses biting or kicking each other to fairly inflict that on them in a 'training' scenario. The liklihood it is misunderstood, considered unfair or leaves horses confused as to what they have done to deserve this punishment is imo extremely high.

Yes I will use body language that I have learned the horse understands naturally to my advantage but I think the 'dialogue' we can get with our horses is very far from being good enough to be able to hit fairly and effectively in 99.9% of cases. So I would argue the risk is more of loosing respect and gaining a fear response than gaining 'respect'.

For me the object is to aim to train and manage well enough that I don't get in positions where I am out of control. I'm far from there yet but through careful planning and thinking stuff through I have managed to keep calm and never resported to hitting for a good few years now.


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## Spyda (6 June 2011)

Spyda said:



			I'd never hit, whip, kick, punch a horse as 'punishment' or to defend myself. Nor would I do it for any other reason (just incase you're left wondering )! There are better ways to manage _any_ situation that may arise between a horse and a human being. 99% of the time confidence, body language, your voice and quick thinking can resolve a tricky situation. I try to avoid the other 1% occurring 

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LaurenBay said:



			Could I ask what you wouldv'e done in my situation then? I am a confident handler, I couldn't use too much body language as I was pinned against a tree and was struggling to breathe, my voice was not doing anything. She was not listening to me, I asked her to move away from me and she didn't do it. She knows what back means, she has never ever done anything like this before and always has been a pleasure to handle. so it wasn't due to lack of understanding either. She just choose this day not to listen to me. 

There was knowone else around and I was in a lot of pain, she was still barging into me and it got to the point were I could here my ribs cracking. So I hit her, it worked!! that was 2 years ago now and she has never tried that again. She's not headshy because of it and had I not done it I would've probably ended up with broken ribs and perhaps a punctured lung.

*I'm not trying to start an arguement but I am interested to know how you would've handled it ?* 

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Of course I would have given her a good wallop to get her attention and to move off me!! That scenario falls in the 1% of occasions I try to avoid.  

Because I've generally dealt with expensive, highly strung, temperamental horses (mostly youngstock) I _try_ to avoid putting myself into a position where accidents or bolshy behaviour can escalate. Just for example, I _always_ handle and lead in a Stephens Controller Headcollar and long line. I very rarely need them in practice and in the past 2 years of daily handling haven't had to use the controller's action (except perhaps just the odd jiggle to get someone who's distracted to focus on being handled), but on the 1% of occasions that a horse has lost the plot or pushed the boundaries it's been an invaluable safeguard in protecting me, people around me and the horse itself. It's short sharp action simply stops the horse in its tracks and gets things safely back on track. 

If I have to deal with a horse with known aggression issues, I plan and do everything with a great deal of forethought and care to protect myself. Much can be gleened from reading the horse's body language. Few horses don't forewarn with some subtle indication in their eye, muzzle, stance, ears, etc. Forewarned is forarmed, as they say!

I guess experience has taught me that NO horse is 100% all of the time and it's best to always be prepared for the unexpected - even if the unexpected only happens once in every 10 years!


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## Wagtail (6 June 2011)

amandap said:



			I am a firm believer in learning about horses and how they interact with each other as part of my learning. However, I am not a horse and I know my horses know I am not a horse, so replicating horse/horse behaviour is not my bible or aim. My feeling is that we don't see or know enough about what led up to horses biting or kicking each other to fairly inflict that on them in a 'training' scenario. The liklihood it is misunderstood, considered unfair or leaves horses confused as to what they have done to deserve this punishment is imo extremely high.
		
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My point wasn't that we should replicate what horses do to one another. My point was that horses instill fear in one another to gain respect. We have to find a way of making them respect us without inflicting pain. I have never had a problem with this either. The only time I would hit a horse is if it purposely kicked me or aggressively bit me. Nipping is just ignored by me. But full on biting has probably only happened to me twice in thirty years, and both times it was met with a wallop and then some sending away of the horse. A horse that once kicked me (I still have a dint in my thigh) was immediately kicked back. She never did it again with me, though she continued to with her owner. She became the sweetest little thing with me and I could do anything with her, where as her owner could not even catch her and she often chased her out of the field! I am not talking about horses kicking when startled or being hurt in some way (say when being tacked up). I am talking about pure unprovoked dominance aggression.


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## templewood (6 June 2011)

amandap said:



			Perhaps we need to think about what we mean by respect?  Do some mean fear/respect?

To me 'respect' comes from an understanding,clear, consistant leadership. I aim to have consistant 'manners' by consistant handling so I no longer get barged or pulled along as I have in the past.
I'm shorter than you templewood and my 16hh tb no longer bumps me or thinks about rushing over me if she's alarmed. I have never hit her or shouted at her. I have been very strict about asking her to step out of my space if she walks too close etc. etc. etc. She is the horse that has taught me the most about my failings and inconsistencies in handling and training.
		
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I no longer get barged or pulled along either! A 16hh TB mare is very different propasition, both temperamentally and physically,  to a 17.3h CB x ID gelding who, just two days ago, completely pushed over a 30yr old tree by scratching his backside on it! This same horse once became afraid of going into the field (long story) and would just hang around near the gate. He would only go into the field (without lead rope or head collar) if he was walking next to me, as he felt safe. He wouldn't do that if he was afraid of me, which I can assure you, he isn't!
I agree about being consistant. I've been around horses for 44 years and they all teach you something. Mainly that you can't treat them all the same.


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## Amaranta (6 June 2011)

Mike007 said:



			Me, well I,m still learning about horses  ,have been for the last 55 years. It seems to me that the more I learn ,the less I need to resort to a whip.
		
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*applauds*


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## templewood (6 June 2011)

Wagtail said:



			So whilst I am against hitting horses in general, I am not against the idea that it may have its place if a horse really steps out of line, especially if its aggressive. But the thought of someone hitting their horse every day, like someone on here has said they do, just disgusts me. That horse does not respect her if she needs to do that every day. That is plain abuse.
		
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I've read all the posts and I haven't seen any where someone said that they hit their horse everyday!


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## Natch (6 June 2011)

Such an interesting concept, respect and how to achieve it.  I think the industry has a lot of catching up to do with itself on terms of thinking about how we safely and compassionately control our horses. 500kg of horse vs <100kg of human, of course there will be a school of thought which believes we should dominate through fear. Yet I see more and more examples of horses trained without violence, and they are the politest, most relaxed, switched on horses going. 

For every horse ruined by lack of discipline (which does not = violence in my opinion) there is another ruined by inappropriate use of punishment.


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## flyingfeet (6 June 2011)

Depends on the horse - just watch them in a herd and there are those where a flick of the ear from the herd alpha sends the scuttling away

Then there are those who are either slow or pushing their luck and the herd leader will generally have to nip and or boot them to get them to listen to the alpha

As with humans, there are some sensitive souls who you just have to grumble at to get their respect and attention. Then there are others that require a short sharp shock to get them listening to you

I'd rather 'hit' properly once at the correct timing, as its far more effective. One thing that *really* annoys me is jumping where if a horse stops the rider turns the horse away (from the thing they are spooking at) and then lays into them. Its pointless and reflection of the riders poor understanding

Also to echo Mike - the more l've learnt the less brutal tactics are required. Now for ground work I send away and do not need violence.


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## Wagtail (6 June 2011)

templewood said:



			I've read all the posts and I haven't seen any where someone said that they hit their horse everyday!
		
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SohieLouBee page 6. Granted, she says MOST days, but it sounds like even she wallops the poor horse for panicking with the farrier and knocking his tools over.


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## fburton (6 June 2011)

cptrayes said:



			Can the people who believe that horses do not rely on violence between themselves tell me how they think horse DO communicate with each other?
		
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Body language, of course - most of it non-aggressive - plus some vocalisation.




			I can tell you from watching mine for hours that this is NOT the conversation:
		
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I too am a life-long horse watcher and have watched horses for hours on end. Apart from the antics of bullies (where the group had one) I saw very little argy-bargy over grazing or anything else. I'm not disputing your observations, but I would suggest that not all herds display the same level of violence that yours does.




			Dobbin: That looks like a nice piece of grass you have there. I need that bit of grass more than you do, would you mind if I had it instead of you?
		
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I am curious to know what your grazing is like, because it is very unusual for horses to compete over something as plentiful and widely distributed as grass. Hay piles or feed buckets, for sure - but grass??




			Why else do you think horses are increasingly being kept in one-horse turnouts?
		
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Interesting! Who says they are? This may be a well-recognized phenomenon - and if so, I'd be interested to find out why, because it has not been a particular problem in my experience. Horses have always kicked and injured other horses from time to time, and ructions are more frequent when horses are added and removed a lot. However, I am surprised to hear this problem is getting worse - or do you mean the tolerance of injury is getting less?




			Someone
		
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That would be me. 




			once gave a statistic that wild horses were "only" seen to behave violently 2% of the time.
		
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That was the Great Basin stallions, who obviously do spend some time fighting. The mares were different. "On the average less than one individual per three hours of observation would be involved in food-related aggression during the most stressful season." (since you gave the example of bits of grass)




			Violence is a language that all preyed upon animals understand perfectly. I have no problem, from time to time, with speaking in that language to my horses.
		
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All the same, I am sure you would agree that we are not _obliged_ to use violence simply because they do, and if there are non-violent ways of achieving a goal which work just as well it is better to use them instead.

I am not sure why you asked about teaching a pony not to enter a feed shed using positive reinforcement alone (although, ironically, the scenario does highlight rather well how powerful food reinforcers can be!). I think that's a bit of a red herring in terms of addressing the problem in practice.

Nevertheless, you're right when you say one can't "create a negative reaction to a particular place with positive reinforcement".  Personally, I wouldn't want to rely on any alternative, positively-reinforced behaviours to protect a pony in the first place, when the competing motivation is so tempting.

However, neither would I want to rely on a one-off punisher to ensure safe behaviour!

If you want to discourage entry into the feed shed and also help to ensure that it is appropriately secured, perhaps you could rig up a loud alarm device that activates when the door is opened and that can only be de-activated temporarily? That would provide instant deterrence for any would be equine intruders, and act as a reminder to humans to close the door behind them.

Re hitting. If it was necessary to keep myself or others safe, of course I would, without hesitation - but as a training aid and dealing with day to day behaviour I think it's ugly and unnecessary. I haven't felt the need to hit (or shout at) any horse for years and I concur with whoever said the more they learn the less they need to resort to physical reprimands.


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## templewood (6 June 2011)

Naturally said:



			Such an interesting concept, respect and how to achieve it.  I think the industry has a lot of catching up to do with itself on terms of thinking about how we safely and compassionately control our horses. 500kg of horse vs <100kg of human, of course there will be a school of thought which believes we should dominate through fear. Yet I see more and more examples of horses trained without violence, and they are the politest, most relaxed, switched on horses going. 

For every horse ruined by lack of discipline (which does not = violence in my opinion) there is another ruined by inappropriate use of punishment.
		
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 I see more and more twitchy, jumpy horses, with rolling eyes and dilated nostrils being 'trained' by so called 'kind' methods. When you look into it, these methods are not kind at all! The horses usually seem to be terrified and have absolutely no idea what is being asked of them or what they are supposed to do. My horses back up quietly and calmy when told "back". These horse go back on the end of a long swishing line with rolling eyes and heads in the air, and if they don't, as I've seen recently, they are hit over the head with the end of the rope!
As for polite, relaxed, switched on horses, all I've seen at the other end of the spectrum is horses that have been completely ground down by these methods and are little more than zombies, with absolutely no interest in anything. They do what they're told automatically, but with no enthusiasm, a though they have completely lost interest in life, which they probably have. I remember one stretching his muzzle out to me for a fuss. He was immediately jerked back by his owner, as, apparently, he didn't have 'permission' to enter my space!

Mental cruelty is just as bad, if not worse, than physical cruelty. I could go on, but to sum up, when I was younger, horses seemed a lot happier than they do now, with some of these so-called natural methods. All a horse requires from you (apart from general welfare) is to know where he stands and to feel safe and secure. He is then a happy horse.


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## Wagtail (6 June 2011)

templewood said:



			I see more and more twitchy, jumpy horses, with rolling eyes and dilated nostrils being 'trained' by so called 'kind' methods. When you look into it, these methods are not kind at all! The horses usually seem to be terrified and have absolutely no idea what is being asked of them or what they are supposed to do. My horses back up quietly and calmy when told "back". These horse go back on the end of a long swishing line with rolling eyes and heads in the air, and if they don't, as I've seen recently, they are hit over the head with the end of the rope!
As for polite, relaxed, switched on horses, all I've seen at the other end of the spectrum is horses that have been completely ground down by these methods and are little more than zombies, with absolutely no interest in anything. They do what they're told automatically, but with no enthusiasm, a though they have completely lost interest in life, which they probably have. I remember one stretching his muzzle out to me for a fuss. He was immediately jerked back by his owner, as, apparently, he didn't have 'permission' to enter my space!

Mental cruelty is just as bad, if not worse, than physical cruelty. I could go on, but to sum up, when I was younger, horses seemed a lot happier than they do now, with some of these so-called natural methods. All a horse requires from you (apart from general welfare) is to know where he stands and to feel safe and secure. He is then a happy horse.
		
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I agree, there is a lot of cruelty in some natural horsemanship methods, just as there is in some traditional practices. I like to pick and choose the ones I use. I use a mixture of the two, and hate following any particular regime as I have not found a single one that totally agree with.


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## fburton (6 June 2011)

Naturally said:



			Such an interesting concept, respect and how to achieve it. 

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Yes, it sure is! In my view, many people (understandably) tend to humanize the word 'respect' too much when use it in relation to horses, by implying "obedience to authority". I personally doubt horses have any concept of either obedience or authority, though both are assumed in how horse behaviour is commonly interpreted, leading to all kinds of odd (imo) ideas of a horse being deliberately naughty, "taking the p*ss", "knowing he's done wrong", etc. when 'respect' is lacking.




			I think the industry has a lot of catching up to do with itself on terms of thinking about how we safely and compassionately control our horses. 500kg of horse vs <100kg of human, of course there will be a school of thought which believes we should dominate through fear. Yet I see more and more examples of horses trained without violence, and they are the politest, most relaxed, switched on horses going.
		
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Yes! When one sees what _can_ be achieved without violence, it is a real encouragement to do it oneself. 




			For every horse ruined by lack of discipline (which does not = violence in my opinion) there is another ruined by inappropriate use of punishment.
		
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Education is the key to tackling both problems - setting a good example for others to follow.


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## fburton (6 June 2011)

Jen_Cots said:



			Depends on the horse - just watch them in a herd and there are those where a flick of the ear from the herd alpha sends the scuttling away

Then there are those who are either slow or pushing their luck and the herd leader will generally have to nip and or boot them to get them to listen to the alpha
		
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Confused, sorry - are you saying here that the herd leader is different from the alpha (dominant) or the same? (They _are_ different usually, but are often assumed to be the same.) 




			I'd rather 'hit' properly once at the correct timing, as its far more effective. One thing that *really* annoys me is jumping where if a horse stops the rider turns the horse away (from the thing they are spooking at) and then lays into them. Its pointless and reflection of the riders poor understanding
		
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Annoying, yes, and it makes one wonder the extent to which cause and effect in punishment (and reward) is misunderstood out of the saddle too!


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## Hollycatt (6 June 2011)

Wagtail said:



			I agree, there is a lot of cruelty in some natural horsemanship methods, just as there is in some traditional practices. I like to pick and choose the ones I use. I use a mixture of the two, and hate following any particular regime as I have not found a single one that totally agree with.
		
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I agree with this


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## flyingfeet (6 June 2011)

fburton said:



			Confused, sorry - are you saying here that the herd leader is different from the alpha (dominant) or the same? (They _are_ different usually, but are often assumed to be the same.)
		
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Either - I have a mare who is matriarch and helps the herd leader maintain control, but they are co-dependent in being boss

However if either tell the youngsters to move, the sensible ones do it before the teeth engage (generally from matriarch, depending on how the overall boss is feeling)

Either way horses down the pecking order react differently and precocious youngsters go through a phase of trying it on and getting bitten! Same way that you have to win all the battles with the youngsters (if possible without resorting to brutal methods, but the well trained from day one rarely need this)


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## charlie76 (6 June 2011)

I watch this person on H&C TV:
http://www.downunderhorsemanship.com/

Might be what people class as natural horsemanship but from what I have seen the horses looks terrified of him, are always out of breath and dripping in sweat.
Not nice IMO


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## Queenbee (6 June 2011)

templewood said:



			The horses usually seem to be terrified and have absolutely no idea what is being asked of them or what they are supposed to do. My horses back up quietly and calmy when told "back". These horse go back on the end of a long swishing line with rolling eyes and heads in the air, 

Mental cruelty is just as bad, if not worse, than physical cruelty..... with some of these so-called natural methods. All a horse requires from you (apart from general welfare) is to know where he stands and to feel safe and secure. He is then a happy horse.
		
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Whilst 'usually' is a bit too much of a generalisation in my mind and once trained a horse theoretically will back up with no rolling eyes and head in the air, I do on the whole agree with your sentiment.  That mental cruelty is at least as bad, that is why I would tend to agree with WT



Wagtail said:



			I agree, there is a lot of cruelty in some natural horsemanship methods, just as there is in some traditional practices. I like to pick and choose the ones I use. I use a mixture of the two, and hate following any particular regime as I have not found a single one that totally agree with.
		
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I am not for the most part a NH person and prefer the traditional methods which to some extent have already been gone over in this post.  I lunge with a lunge line and whip and train to voice commands, I do not look at the horses bum when I want it to stop (I just don't get it, although am happy if anyone wants to enlighten me on that one!)  If I want to train a horse to go back, I put pressure in the chest, I don't smack it with my hands in the face or wave a bloomin rope at it.  I do not smack or hit any horse as part of my day to day life, but I will give a smack and a growl to reprimand bolshy, rude or dangerous behaviour.  Seems to me that when training a horse it is simple sense to give very clear signals to the horse, since confusion on the horses part could often cause a worse immediate situation.  I do however use body language and eye contact and go by the behaviour and body language of a horse.  I am a great believer in evading problems before they arise, creating a situation where a horse wants to do something and does not battle against you!


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## amandap (6 June 2011)

Wagtail said:



			My point wasn't that we should replicate what horses do to one another. My point was that horses instill fear in one another to gain respect. We have to find a way of making them respect us without inflicting pain. I have never had a problem with this either.
		
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Thanks for clarifying. I was also expanding and explaining my thinking.



fburton said:



			Confused, sorry - are you saying here that the herd leader is different from the alpha (dominant) or the same? (They _are_ different usually, but are often assumed to be the same.)
		
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I so agree with this. I too watch my herd and have identified clearly who to me is the lead horse. He is certainly not the most bossy or aggressive (dominant  wink for fburton). In fact I very rarely see him being overtly assertive to the point of physical aggression.

Note _he_ is not a mare but a gelding.


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## flyingfeet (6 June 2011)

charlie76 said:



			I watch this person on H&C TV:
http://www.downunderhorsemanship.com/

Might be what people class as natural horsemanship but from what I have seen the horses looks terrified of him, are always out of breath and dripping in sweat.
Not nice IMO
		
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Not sure which episodes you have been watching, as with everything you learn something new. Clinton despooks horses faster than other techniques as he won't remove the agitator until they relax, but he is all about teaching the horse to relax. 

More useful techniques than parelli IMHO


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## amandap (6 June 2011)

queenbee said:



			I am a great believer in evading problems before they arise, creating a situation where a horse wants to do something and does not battle against you!
		
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Yes, me too.

I have forgotten one crucial aspect you mention queenbee that of learning to 'read' your horse and therefore pick up signs of worry or resistance etc. earlier so you can modify your aproach before there is a crisis.


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## Tinypony (6 June 2011)

Jen_Cots said:



			Not sure which episodes you have been watching, as with everything you learn something new. Clinton despooks horses faster than other techniques as he won't remove the agitator until they relax, but he is all about teaching the horse to relax. 

More useful techniques than parelli IMHO
		
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I think Clinton Anderson illustrates flooding quite clearly in some of his film clips.

He's not "what people class as natural horsemanship", he's just one trainer that comes loosely under that banner.  The way they work varies considerably, and he's fairly extreme in some of what he does.


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## Natch (6 June 2011)

Templewood I shall have to agree to disagree with you regarding the majority of 'nh style' trained horses I have had the pleasure of watching. I agree there is good and bad horsemanship under any school of thought and as another poster said, I take the best bits I see from any trainer, and discard the less useful bits 

Incidentally I find it interesting that many people cite 'horses do it in the herd' as a good reason to use aggression. Thats a whole other debate maybe.


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## Winklepoker (6 June 2011)

Tinypony said:



			I think Clinton Anderson illustrates flooding quite clearly in some of his film clips.

He's not "what people class as natural horsemanship", he's just one trainer that comes loosely under that banner.  The way they work varies considerably, and he's fairly extreme in some of what he does.
		
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Clinton does not claim to be a Natural Horseman, you are quite right.  I had a guy out yesterday who uses Clintons methods and I agreed with his methods 100 fold.  I do hit my horse  YES!! I do, I havent bothered to read all the replies so feel about me how you will.  I hit my horse as and when it is warrented, should he turn his back end on me, he will get a spank to let him know it is absolutely not acceptable, exactly how another horse would kick him if he did the same in the field or the wild.  They are animals, that we have dominated whether you like to believe it or not.  If you had no dominance over your horse, how on earth would you be on its back, putting on a halter etc. This is no excuse however, to let your own emotions - anger, frustration etc. become an acceptable reason to give them a smack.  I will admit that a period of being too soft on the current horse has led to some 'unwanted' behaviour as he doesnt feel secure and in control of under my half-hearted leadership.  I turned this around with the work done on him yesterday. And will continue to be the leader for the sake of both of ours safety.


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## Indy (6 June 2011)

FBurton I don't know who you are but I think I might love you!


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## team barney (6 June 2011)

templewood said:



			I see more and more twitchy, jumpy horses, with rolling eyes and dilated nostrils being 'trained' by so called 'kind' methods. When you look into it, these methods are not kind at all! The horses usually seem to be terrified and have absolutely no idea what is being asked of them or what they are supposed to do. My horses back up quietly and calmy when told "back". These horse go back on the end of a long swishing line with rolling eyes and heads in the air, and if they don't, as I've seen recently, they are hit over the head with the end of the rope!
As for polite, relaxed, switched on horses, all I've seen at the other end of the spectrum is horses that have been completely ground down by these methods and are little more than zombies, with absolutely no interest in anything. They do what they're told automatically, but with no enthusiasm, a though they have completely lost interest in life, which they probably have. I remember one stretching his muzzle out to me for a fuss. He was immediately jerked back by his owner, as, apparently, he didn't have 'permission' to enter my space!

Mental cruelty is just as bad, if not worse, than physical cruelty. I could go on, but to sum up, when I was younger, horses seemed a lot happier than they do now, with some of these so-called natural methods. All a horse requires from you (apart from general welfare) is to know where he stands and to feel safe and secure. He is then a happy horse.
		
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You have perfectly summed up branded "natural horsemanship".  The horses go through fear and end up with lives built on abject misery.  It is mental cruelty the love, language and leadership these institutions claim to represent is just a lie.


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## templewood (6 June 2011)

queenbee said:



			I am not for the most part a NH person and prefer the traditional methods which to some extent have already been gone over in this post.  I lunge with a lunge line and whip and train to voice commands, I do not look at the horses bum when I want it to stop (I just don't get it, although am happy if anyone wants to enlighten me on that one!)  If I want to train a horse to go back, I put pressure in the chest, I don't smack it with my hands in the face or wave a bloomin rope at it.  I do not smack or hit any horse as part of my day to day life, but I will give a smack and a growl to reprimand bolshy, rude or dangerous behaviour.  Seems to me that when training a horse it is simple sense to give very clear signals to the horse, since confusion on the horses part could often cause a worse immediate situation.  I do however use body language and eye contact and go by the behaviour and body language of a horse.  I am a great believer in evading problems before they arise, creating a situation where a horse wants to do something and does not battle against you!
		
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Totally agree with this.


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## Tinypony (6 June 2011)

Winklepoker said:



			Clinton does not claim to be a Natural Horseman, you are quite right.  I had a guy out yesterday who uses Clintons methods and I agreed with his methods 100 fold.  I do hit my horse  YES!! I do, I havent bothered to read all the replies so feel about me how you will.  I hit my horse as and when it is warrented, should he turn his back end on me, he will get a spank to let him know it is absolutely not acceptable, exactly how another horse would kick him if he did the same in the field or the wild.  They are animals, that we have dominated whether you like to believe it or not.  If you had no dominance over your horse, how on earth would you be on its back, putting on a halter etc. This is no excuse however, to let your own emotions - anger, frustration etc. become an acceptable reason to give them a smack.  I will admit that a period of being too soft on the current horse has led to some 'unwanted' behaviour as he doesnt feel secure and in control of under my half-hearted leadership.  I turned this around with the work done on him yesterday. And will continue to be the leader for the sake of both of ours safety.
		
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Some of the issues you have raised have already been discussed, if you have a read of the replies previously.


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## cptrayes (6 June 2011)

fburton said:



			Body language, of course - most of it non-aggressive - plus some vocalisation.
		
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The horse body language works on the basis that if the body language is ignored, physical means will be used. The body language REQUIRES the occasional use of violence to work. 




fburton said:



			If you want to discourage entry into the feed shed and also help to ensure that it is appropriately secured, perhaps you could rig up a loud alarm device that activates when the door is opened and that can only be de-activated temporarily? That would provide instant deterrence for any would be equine intruders, and act as a reminder to humans to close the door behind them.
		
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Thankyou! That's actually the best suggestion I have had. If I feel the need in future, now OH is well again, then I will get him to rig an alarm that can be reset to be off for a few minutes only while I clean tack or put up food.  It wouldn't deter my horses, I teach them not to be afraid of loud noises so that they can cope with guns, heavy machinery and fireworks  but it will shriek at anyone who leaves the door open without being present.


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## lastchancer (6 June 2011)

Every single poster on this threat should be deeply ashamed of themselves. 
Why? Because I have just spent the best part of an hour reading 50 pages of it whilst my poor horsey waits in his stable for some attention. So you are ALL guilty of cruelty.
 Even you Spooner.


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## DragonSlayer (6 June 2011)

lastchancer said:



			Every single poster on this threat should be deeply ashamed of themselves. 
Why? Because I have just spent the best part of an hour reading 50 pages of it whilst my poor horsey waits in his stable for some attention. So you are ALL guilty of cruelty.
 Even you Spooner.
		
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~snorts!~


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## amandap (6 June 2011)

lastchancer said:



			Every single poster on this threat should be deeply ashamed of themselves. 
Why? Because I have just spent the best part of an hour reading 50 pages of it whilst my poor horsey waits in his stable for some attention. So you are ALL guilty of cruelty.
 Even you Spooner.
		
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LOL. Classic, blaming others for your actions. Now where have we all seen/done this before?


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## fburton (6 June 2011)

cptrayes said:



			TThankyou! That's actually the best suggestion I have had. If I feel the need in future, now OH is well again, then I will get him to rig an alarm that can be reset to be off for a few minutes only while I clean tack or put up food.  It wouldn't deter my horses, I teach them not to be afraid of loud noises so that they can cope with guns, heavy machinery and fireworks  but it will shriek at anyone who leaves the door open without being present.
		
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You're welcome! I wasn't 100% sure if I understood the problem, but if the idea saves any of your horses from harm I would be well pleased.


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## HuntingPink (11 June 2011)

Jen_Cots said:



			Not sure which episodes you have been watching, as with everything you learn something new. Clinton despooks horses faster than other techniques as he won't remove the agitator until they relax, but he is all about teaching the horse to relax. 

More useful techniques than parelli IMHO
		
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It's called flooding and doesn't teach the horse anything except to suppress their feelings.  CA isn't a gentle trainer, he is quite rough and brutish.  It would be much better to do proper despooking training so that your horse really isn't scared.


To answer the original question, no I don't hit my horse, I have in the past but I learned that it doesn't help and doesn't get me anywhere.

I also don't do these natural horsemanship methods either, gum lines/buckstoppers or whatever you call them are not kind and they're not natural.  Just because something is non violent doesn't mean that it doesn't cause harm.


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## HuntingPink (11 June 2011)

fburton said:



			Interesting! Who says they are? This may be a well-recognized phenomenon - and if so, I'd be interested to find out why, because it has not been a particular problem in my experience. Horses have always kicked and injured other horses from time to time, and ructions are more frequent when horses are added and removed a lot. However, I am surprised to hear this problem is getting worse - or do you mean the tolerance of injury is getting less?
		
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Unfortunately they are.  I've recently been looking at yards for my two and lots of places have either single horse turnout or no more than two.  I want my horses in a herd fgs!


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## tallyho! (11 June 2011)

HuntingPink said:



			Unfortunately they are.  I've recently been looking at yards for my two and lots of places have either single horse turnout or no more than two.  I want my horses in a herd fgs!
		
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You can come and join my herd if you want? They're mainly sedate but every now and they like to play pat-a-cake....


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## Echo Bravo (11 June 2011)

This is one post I'm keeping well out off as I could get banned


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## cptrayes (11 June 2011)

HuntingPink said:



			It's called flooding and doesn't teach the horse anything except to suppress their feelings.
		
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I'm not sure that I understand you here, so can you clarify? Are you saying that it is not possible to train a horse to be genuinely unafraid of an "agitator" by keeping it near the agitator until it relaxes?

If so, I can assure you that you are 100% incorrect and that it is perfectly possible to train a horse to be genuinely relaxed about, say, sheep, by riding in a field of sheep until the horse relaxes with the sheep around.  I have done it many times, with many things, and I can tell the difference between a horse suppressing its reaction (where, for example, the breathing remains faster and heavier than normal) and one which has genuinely relaxed, and so can any decent horseman.


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## Ibblebibble (11 June 2011)

Mike007 said:



			Me, well I,m still learning about horses  ,have been for the last 55 years. It seems to me that the more I learn ,the less I need to resort to a whip.
		
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nicely put,
i have hit horses, a long time ago a young mare leaned out of her stable and bit me as i walked past, it was an instant reaction for me to wallop her on the neck because god damn it , it hurt! i felt guilty because she shot to the back of the stable and looked terrified................ for about 2 minutes! then she came back over and we carried on as if nothing had happened, but she never bit anyone after that
my big girl is a tester, she will use her size to intimidate people if she can, i've seen her be downright bolshy with other people but she doesn't try it with me, when we went to get her she wouldn't load in the lorry, her owner tried hitting, throwing water on her butt, lunge whip the usual array of loading 'techniques'  no joy for an hour, so they phoned her old sharer who came out and did 10 mins in hand leading her ,backing up and moving her about and then proceeded to load her at the 2nd attempt, i decided right there that fighting with that mare would never get me anywhere, treat her with respect and make the boundaries clear and we get on just fine
I'm not a fluffy bunny hugger tho lol, if it bites it will get a slap, i just don't feel the need to 'dominate' my horses and it seems to have worked just fine


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## Dexter (11 June 2011)

I havent read all the replies, but hell yeah! so long as it warrants it. I think a better question would have been have you ever hit/punished a horse in anger. Sometimes I have open palm slapped them, hit them round the bum with head collars/bridles, walloped them hard  a couple of times with a whip when under saddle, etc, etc, etc but I have NEVER EVER hit/disciplined a horse in anger


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## aimeetb (11 June 2011)

JEEZ ENFYS 511 REPLIES!! LOL XXX


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## niagaraduval (11 June 2011)

I won't hesitate in a dangerous situation if that's what the horse needs, although I would never be violent towards him.


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## black_horse (12 June 2011)

Only when my own safety was in danger. Delicia is a bugger for trying to crush people against walls. Was bandaging her one day and she starting leaning on me, pushing me against the wall. I slapped her on the buttock of remind her i was here. She steped sideways out of my way and i immediatly patted her and told her she was a good girl.


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## Enfys (12 June 2011)

HuntingPink said:



			Unfortunately they are.  I've recently been looking at yards for my two and lots of places have either single horse turnout or no more than two.  I want my horses in a herd fgs!
		
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I think YO's have a tough time with this, either they shove a bunch of horses in together and shut their eyes to the injuries and stress, or they juggle. 

In a large pasture I think bigger herds work as individuals have space to retreat to a safe distance, but not all yards have the facilities for that, my mares live on about 10 acres of mixed pasture, woodland and scrub around a half mile oval exercise track, and I think their pasture has a lot to do with how settled and mellow they are. The mares are a mix of  old mares (20, 21, 24) in-foal mares, 3 year olds going down to a 6 week old foal, mares seem to be much easier to integrate than geldings. 

I will not mix the sexes as the geldings always, _*always*_ seem to get riggy and start upsetting the status quo. Maybe I've just been unlucky but all my geldings seem to be alpha males, some are just more alpha than others  Quite frankly, if they weren't paying guests I wouldn't have a gelding on the place at all. My stallion causes less trouble (for less read none) than any gelding here apart from Charley and he doesn't count.

I have three two horse gelding 'groups' *not by choice*, I'd rather they were all together, but that's just the way it has worked out compatibly. I can't stand seeing geldings chase about, corner each other and generally kick the living daylights out of each other and I don't let it go on for long at all, minutes, not hours, not days and actually it horrifies me when I read of horses being left to be seriously bullied for days, sod working it out for themselves, I'd never leave a horse of mine in a situation like that. I know very well the difference between a "Hello, you're new, I'm the boss by the way" kind of malarkey as opposed to the "Who the hell do you think you are? This is my paddock, get in that corner and stay there whilst I kick your teeth down your throat!" type of aggression.  I always have to remember that these are not my own horses but other peoples' and as such I am responsible for them and will not put them at unnecessary risk of injury when there is a far more peaceful alternative - even if it is inconvenient for me. Smaller groups in more paddocks = less boarders = less income. Silly of me to have a conscience and not cram 8 horses into lots of 1 acre paddocks - that isn't unusual here by the way.

Off topic, but what the hell, it began as my thread


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## Enfys (12 June 2011)

aimeetb said:



			JEEZ ENFYS 511 REPLIES!! LOL XXX
		
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 Unexpected.


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## tallyho! (12 June 2011)

Gosh, I never knew geldings could be so horrible. IME they've always got on, even with mares in adjacent paddocks. I have three in together, previous to that more than 5 in at once, with mares too. Infact my friend puts everything in together.. must be very lucky.


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## Enfys (12 June 2011)

tallyho! said:



			Gosh, I never knew geldings could be so horrible. IME they've always got on, even with mares in adjacent paddocks. I have three in together, previous to that more than 5 in at once, with mares too. Infact my friend puts everything in together.. must be very lucky.
		
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Every single time I have problems with groups it is geldings that are the root of it. I may just have been unfortunate. New thread I think.


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## Syrah (12 June 2011)

I would hit a horse if my or anyone elses safety was at risk.


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## lauraanddolly (12 June 2011)

I have no qualms about giving a horse a smack with hand, whip whatever you have to hand, should the situation warrant it.  Horses are bigger and much stronger than us, we have to make them understand our boundaries. This doesn't always mean hitting them, I agree but most of the time it does no harm. Complete beatings are unacceptable and amount to abuse, I once knew a girl who I threatened to take her own whip too, after I had removed it from her for beating her horse with it because it would not stand still! 
 I help with a mare my friend bought last summer for her 14 yr old girls, sold as a quiet hack for novices. She bites, kicks and rears, hence why they are not riding or dealing with her, I am.  Last winter she quite regularly got a slap for biting or trying to when being rugged - I was being very nice folded the rug in half placed it on the front end gave her a scratch and a treat then un folded the rug and started doing it up, when I did the front up she really tried to take a chunk out of you - so yes she gets a slap, not once did I pull on the rug or hurt her in any way therefore she must deal with it. I can rug her no problems now - in fact I had to go and rug her last night - her owner would rather leave her without as its too much hassle for her, she is a skinny tb and lives out - she needs to be rugged! 
 When I watch her owner with her, its almost laughable - the mare makes a face and her owner backs off from whatever she may have been trying to do(this could be rugging to cleaning a wound or picking her feet out) - the mare has her well trained!  However, I go in growl and a slap if needed and she is sweetness and light! She certainly isn't scared of me - just has respect, if she crosses the line, punishment follows, if she is good she gets all the love and praise in the world.  
 My own horse, is very well behaved, however in the 10 years I have owned her I have had call to give her a good slap on a few occasions. If the horse needs it, it will get it. To much pussy footing around will only create problems a short sharp wallop can fix.


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## AengusOg (12 June 2011)

cptrayes said:



			He seems to have a clear memory of how much trouble it got him into to be in the feed shed, and that's exactly how I want it, in case my OH leaves the door open by mistake again like he sometimes does. .
		
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Seems to me it should have been your 'OH' who got the kick in the guts.


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## AengusOg (12 June 2011)

It's usually physical abuse which makes horses dangerous to handle. Of course the humans can always justify it, but the horses seldom understand why they are being hit.

I have never found the need to hit horses. I have had to work with some pretty mixed up horses, many of them quite dangerous, but I've always found that convincing a horse that I can be more dangerous to him if he tries to intimidate me is sufficient to keep myself safe. 

I once got my teeth kicked out by a client's horse when it double-barrelled me whilst I was teaching it to longe. I didn't hit that one either. I just spat the broken teeth out, got after him, and sent him on again. It wasn't his fault I let him close enough to kick me. He didn't try again.

I believe violence against horses usually perpetuates their bad behaviour. Far better to establish a relationship where the horse does as he's asked, when he's asked, and understands that things get difficult for him if he tries to push his luck.


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## cptrayes (12 June 2011)

AengusOg said:



			Seems to me it should have been your 'OH' who got the kick in the guts. 

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I did not kick the pony in the guts. I also understand, as few people seem to, that no person is perfect, even the ones who post on here as if they are.

And we have done the subject of this pony to death, so please go on to something else now while I go fetch a cockerel for a live sacrifice at midnight.


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## cptrayes (12 June 2011)

AengusOg said:



			It's usually physical abuse which makes horses dangerous to handle.
		
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It is very often LACK of handling that makes a horse difficult to handle. I would also question how you know the full history of every horse that you have met that was dangerous to handle. The only horse who has bitten me properly was known to me from birth and had never in his life been physically abused.



AengusOg said:



			Of course the humans can always justify it, but the horses seldom understand why they are being hit.
		
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Those of us who do hit our horses when it is the right thing to do only do it when they DO understand why they are being hit. When I hit a horse of mine it understands perfectly why I do it.



AengusOg said:



			I've always found that convincing a horse that I can be more dangerous to him if he tries to intimidate me is sufficient to keep myself safe.
		
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And how do you do that to a horse which has just flown at you in the field and tried to bite your face off? See another post on New Lounge on this subject.



AengusOg said:



			It wasn't his fault I let him close enough to kick me. He didn't try again.
		
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I wouldn't have a horse that I couldn't let close enough to kick me. My horses are all close enough to kick me any time they choose. They don't choose. Keeping a horse out of kicking range is not, in my yard, an option.




AengusOg said:



			I believe violence against horses usually perpetuates their bad behaviour.
		
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This is not my experience. I have, over the years, routinely paid peanuts for horses that other people could not manage and I have sorted every single one out so they could be ridden and handled by novices. I think I probably hit most of them at one time or another.



AengusOg said:



			Far better to establish a relationship where the horse does as he's asked, when he's asked, and understands that things get difficult for him if he tries to push his luck.
		
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Occasional violence and a good relationship are not mutually exclusive. It is perfectly possible to have a relationship where the horse does what he is asked when the "getting difficult for him" occasionally involves a wallop.


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## AengusOg (12 June 2011)

cptrayes said:



			And we have done the subject of this pony to death, so please go on to something else now while I go fetch a cockerel for a live sacrifice at midnight.
		
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 Maybe if you threaten it enough with the axe, it will chop its own head off.


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## georgiaziggy (12 June 2011)

When I first had my mare I was going for the nice approach (by the way she was evil), which only resulted in 5 months of being bitten, kicked, charged at, bronked off at any available moment, and literally was never allowed to touch her, the only time she was happy was when i was no where near her! In the end I settled with a nice big smack on the nose if she bit me, and after a few attempts she never did it again!! 3 years on she is now one of the sweetest mares ever who loves cuddles and kisses and if she ever even thinks about biting me you can see her mentally stop herself! Having said all that she did put her ears back at me after coming back from holiday for a week and refused to budge from the field, mares will be mares though!!


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## tallyho! (13 June 2011)

AengusOg said:



 Maybe if you threaten it enough with the axe, it will chop its own head off.
		
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Wierd.


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## Dunlin (13 June 2011)

I have only ever used a whip in a strong manner once on a hunt. The boy I was on was being very naughty, kicking, bucking, rearing etc. I led him well away from everyone to pack up and go home, I was telling people to stay back from him but a small girl on a pony came across the front of us and my horse bit her HARD on the thigh and went for her again. He got a very strong smack as at the time I couldn't think what else to do quickly to make him stop. He was 17.3 and hugely strong, I couldn't turn his head at all. I hated myself for hitting him that hard but even to this day I don't know what else I could have done so quickly to stop him. 

At the end of the day, after that event he was not scared of me or whips, when he was good he got pats and treats. It works both ways. If my own child was being nasty and biting other people I wouldn't have a problem smacking them.

A few years ago at Hickstead there was a guy who literally beat his horse round the head with his whip when the horse refused a jump. Can't remember who it was but it was a disgusting thing to watch and many people were in tears. I believe there were a lot of complaints over it and I think the rider got a ban.


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## team barney (13 June 2011)

Dunlin said:



			A few years ago at Hickstead there was a guy who literally beat his horse round the head with his whip when the horse refused a jump. Can't remember who it was but it was a disgusting thing to watch and many people were in tears. I believe there were a lot of complaints over it and I think the rider got a ban.
		
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Yes I remember that it was horrible   I believe the rider was a Belgian man, I think his surname name began with M??? Not 100% sure though


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## Foxhunter49 (13 June 2011)

This whole subject is getting silly. At no point has anyone said that they will BEAT a horse for punishment, by BEAT I mean thrash the horse in temper that makes it inappropriate and will turn a good horse bad.

To punish a horse with a hard whack at the right time, which is AS it misbehaves is not going to do harm. It will be a reminder to the horse that you have the brain and the power to take control. A hit in the correct place, whether it is with the hand across the muzzle for biting or a whack on the backside with a shovel because it threatened to kick and that is what is to hand is going to make them think twice about doing it again.

Those of you that say you have never hit your horses, then I say good for you. I also state that you have never come across a truly bargy, ill mannered (and therefore miserable horse)  
I have horses here that I have never done anything more than raise my voice to them, others have had a whack. Depends on the horse and the sin.  I have the patience of Job when it comes to teaching something to the nervous/insecure horse but when a horse switches off and says 'NO' out of sheer lack of being made to do things then I am not afraid to crack it one.


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## lassiesuca (13 June 2011)

Foxhunter49 said:



*Those of you that say you have never hit your horses, then I say good for you. I also state that you have never come across a truly bargy, ill mannered (and therefore miserable horse)  *
one.
		
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IMO that's an unfair assumption, that the only way we can deal with bad behaviour is with physical reprimand. I had an aggressive, bargy, ''ill mannered'' youngster who knew little (okay, in fairness, a lot of it was babyish and not knowing any better). He bit, kicked, barged the lot. Not once did I raise my hand (or voice). 

I've dealt with bad behaviour using negative punishment, positive reinforcement and negative reinforcement. 

So it IS possible to train without smacking and reprimanding as such. I can also account for two other ponies, whom I've used the same method on. 

All three are gentlemen now


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## ozpoz (13 June 2011)

Foxhunter49 said:



			This whole subject is getting silly. At no point has anyone said that they will BEAT a horse for punishment, by BEAT I mean thrash the horse in temper that makes it inappropriate and will turn a good horse bad.

To punish a horse with a hard whack at the right time, which is AS it misbehaves is not going to do harm. It will be a reminder to the horse that you have the brain and the power to take control. A hit in the correct place, whether it is with the hand across the muzzle for biting or a whack on the backside with a shovel because it threatened to kick and that is what is to hand is going to make them think twice about doing it again.

Those of you that say you have never hit your horses, then I say good for you. I also state that you have never come across a truly bargy, ill mannered (and therefore miserable horse)  
I have horses here that I have never done anything more than raise my voice to them, others have had a whack. Depends on the horse and the sin.  I have the patience of Job when it comes to teaching something to the nervous/insecure horse but when a horse switches off and says 'NO' out of sheer lack of being made to do things then I am not afraid to crack it one.
		
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lol.. Foxhunter, this is far too sensible a post!


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## Kelly Marks (13 June 2011)

"Those of you that say you have never hit your horses, then I say good for you."

Sadly I can't say that - but the last time I hit a horse was in 1989 - I was riding in a race at Salisbury - I won the race but watching the video afterwards I felt sick watching it - I thought "so I 'love' horses and this is the way I treat them?"  Incidentally, the press thought I'd ridden a great race 'Kelly Marks rode her amateur riders to sleep' - yeah right - the press and people who bet on horses seem to positively approve of horses being hit.  Shows you're 'trying' you see.  Incidentally, I rode the best winners of my career after I made the decision never to hit a horse again.


"I also state that you have never come across a truly bargy, ill mannered (and therefore miserable horse)"  

Yes I have.  A lot since working with Monty Roberts!  However, there are more (and this is key) SAFER and more EFFECTIVE ways of getting the results you want than striking a horse.  Won't mention them here or I'll get banned again!  But think about this ... Sir Mark Prescott is generally regarded as a genius racehorse trainer, his favourite sports are bull fighting and anything bloody (!) and yet ... he won't let his lads ride out with whips on his horses. Why?  Because it ruins them and cause more problems than they solve.

I am not here to be adversarial.  But discussion forums are a great place to get people to consider different ideas - and that's all I'd ask you to do.  So if you absolutely couldn't hit a horse - what else might you do to ensure he became a kind, respectful, well mannered horse?


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## fburton (13 June 2011)

ozpoz said:



			lol.. Foxhunter, this is far too sensible a post! 

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It is one point of view - just not the only valid one.

However, the following...

"Those of you that say you have never hit your horses, then I say good for you. I also state that you have never come across a truly bargy, ill mannered (and therefore miserable horse)" 

clearly doesn't make sense because it implies, wrongly, that hitting horses is the only way to deal with bargy, ill-mannered horses. (Apologies if that's _not_ what was meant.)


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## LuckyRed (3 July 2011)

Like many of the posters on here, I'll admit to having hit horses in the past - but once I started actually thinking about what I was doing, reading books and going on a few courses I made the conscious decision not to hit with a whip again.  A horse that can feel a fly land on it's skin can obviously feel a  whip and will feel it a lot - try hitting your leg  with a whip when wearing chaps(kinky) to see how much it hurts.  Horses are prey animals who have evolved not to show pain as the predators pick out the weak members of the herd so of course they won't whimper or such signs of weakness.  I've recently started doing agility with my dog and I wonder how popular it woudl be as a sport if you were actively encouraged to carry a stick and hit the dog if it did wrong in the same way that the horse riding community are?

I want my horse to be pleased to see me when I walk out to him in the field, come to me rather than me have to chase him to catch him and then be happy to let me tack up and mount -I don't see that any horse will react well 
if they know that pain is guaranteed to follow being caught.


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## madabouthehorse (3 July 2011)

team barney said:



			The only circumstances in which I would hit a horse is if said horse was in serious attack mode (believe me it happens) and I had no other escape.
		
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Same. I am involved with a 5 y/o horse that's not disciplined AT ALL and the other day his (kinda clueless) owner was on holiday and left me to look after him and her other horse. was picking out his feet and he tried to kick me in the head after spinning around and almost knocking me off my feet. he got a smack and firm NO. Second time, the same thing happened, another smack and no. THIRD TIME, and believe me he was really going for me he got a rather large wallop as his hoof missed my head by about an inch. He hasn't done it since with me!

*and before 'horsey huggers' ask if he has a problem which mean he could be reacting this way. no he doesn't! he has been taught, knows perfectly well how to, is in no pain, and is just taking the p*ss....and is mean!!!*


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## Marydoll (3 July 2011)

This subject is growing a beard !! you have folks that hit their  horses and those who dont, agree to disagree, you know your own  stance  and put it to bed


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