# Information on Alpha mares



## sporthorsefrance (13 September 2015)

I'm researching the behaviour and descendancy of Alpha mares - to hopefully produce a book that will help owners, breeders and riders understand the difficulties one encounters when dealing with a true Alpha mare. I have bred 3 generations of them & I am still learning! I am not interested in the person  who just thinks they have an Alpha mare, unless they have sound reasons why, but I am interested in someone who had the dam with the same temperament & Alpha signs & passed them on to the first female foal . Please email me if you have useful input. kslsporthorses@orange.fr


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## planete (13 September 2015)

Could you please define what, for you, a "true Alpha mare" is?  For me, a 'leader' mare is sane and sensible but does not suffer fools gladly, so needs sensitive and highly educated management and handlers to give her best.  End of problems.

Anybody for popcorn?


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## maccachic (14 September 2015)

Id agree with that definition planete - my current mare is alpha and she is the first out of 7 I've owned previously that has been.

Unsure on her foals tendency's and wasn't aware it was a generational thing.


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## JillA (14 September 2015)

I had an alpha mare who controlled all the other horses in her herd with just a flick of an ear, and would take them all on a hike around the track, no arguments. She was easy enough to handle but was never broken to ride because of really badly turned feet. She bred 5 foals, only one of which had pigeon toes, like hers but not as bad. I sold 3 at weaning so can't comment on their characters, but the two I kept to maturity one I broke and kept, and he is a very opinionated gelding, and the other filly I had to have professionally done and then sold. She has ideas of her own, but then she is a mare!! I think her subsequent owner would describe her as slightly challenging but bold. You certainly have to be tactful with both of them.


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## Equi (14 September 2015)

The only issue i have with my alpha mare is that she decides when the herd is being caught or not. Bloody annoying.


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## Irish gal (14 September 2015)

As the others have said you're talking about the herd leader, that's what the Alpha mare is as opposed to just a stroppy mare who might bully others but is not in charge. Mares hugely influence their offspring which is why embryo transfer has run into problems when heavy horses are used as recipients for say polo ponies. It was seen that the offspring turned out to be too slow and pretty useless and it was down to being nurtured by such a placid animal. If the gypsy mare heard a startling sound she would ignore it and keep eating where a blood mare would have torn across the field with the foal following.

It's well known that the mare passes a lot of traits to the foal, just like in humans who copy their mother and act like her. So with foals, to the extent that orphans can be extremely difficult to rear into a well mannered animal as they are missing their mother's discipline. 

I have heard experienced breeders say they would prefer foals from Alpha mares as their confidence will be passed on to the foal; contrast that with a foal from a mare who is at the bottom of the herd pecking order and bullied so growing up in a less secure way.

I had a mare who was leader of a herd of 20 horses, who had liberty on an 80 acre farm with the gates open so living in a real natural herd environment. A TB, I often saw her to go from grazing quietly to turning on a six pence and taking off at a gallop across the farm with the whole gang behind her. She was undisputed leader but never bullied any horse and was just quietly dignified. She showed her disgust by wrinkling one nostril slightly and would only pin her ears if really pushed. She was very good to do anything with and wouldn't try dominate a person, but she had no need whatsoever for affection, human praise etc. An Alpha mare, there were no problems at all dealing with her, perhaps you just have a difficult mare? In the same herd another mare completely tried to dominate all the horses except the lead mare - she also tried to dominate people, yet she was not herd leader, the quiet, dignified TB was.


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## sporthorsefrance (14 September 2015)

Irish gal said:



			As the others have said you're talking about the herd leader, that's what the Alpha mare is as opposed to just a stroppy mare who might bully others but is not in charge. Mares hugely influence their offspring which is why embryo transfer has run into problems when heavy horses are used as recipients for say polo ponies. It was seen that the offspring turned out to be too slow and pretty useless and it was down to being nurtured by such a placid animal. If the gypsy mare heard a startling sound she would ignore it and keep eating where a blood mare would have torn across the field with the foal following.

It's well known that the mare passes a lot of traits to the foal, just like in humans who copy their mother and act like her. So with foals, to the extent that orphans can be extremely difficult to rear into a well mannered animal as they are missing their mother's discipline. 

I have heard experienced breeders say they would prefer foals from Alpha mares as their confidence will be passed on to the foal; contrast that with a foal from a mare who is at the bottom of the herd pecking order and bullied so growing up in a less secure way.

I had a mare who was leader of a herd of 20 horses, who had liberty on an 80 acre farm with the gates open so living in a real natural herd environment. A TB, I often saw her to go from grazing quietly to turning on a six pence and taking off at a gallop across the farm with the whole gang behind her. She was undisputed leader but never bullied any horse and was just quietly dignified. She showed her disgust by wrinkling one nostril slightly and would only pin her ears if really pushed. She was very good to do anything with and wouldn't try dominate a person, but she had no need whatsoever for affection, human praise etc. An Alpha mare, there were no problems at all dealing with her, perhaps you just have a difficult mare? In the same herd another mare completely tried to dominate all the horses except the lead mare - she also tried to dominate people, yet she was not herd leader, the quiet, dignified TB was.
		
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No, I don't just have a difficult mare. I've been a professional breeder of sport horses for over 20 years with some success. Eventing to international 2* & 3* level & dressage to national. All here in France with british bred horses. There is a difference between a lead mare & an Alpha mare. Every group of horses has a lead mare but only a true Alpha will show certain traits - for example, in a field full of mares & foals she will take all the foals & herd them. Ellen Parker, a very well respected authority on TB racehorses, has done a ton of research into Alpha mares, or Queens of the Turf as she calls them & has identified definite 'family' lines. I would like to extend that research into other breeds. It's amazing when you look back at the pedigrees of very successful horses who have a lot TB in their ancestry, just how many of Ellen's Queens there are. I have an exceptional 6 yr old event mare who will go 1* next year & is expected to then move up the levels very quickly. She is the daughter & grand daughter of Alpha mares & has 19 TB Queens in her pedigree. I find that fascinating.
I saw my 15 yr old Alpha mare, who had always been in charge, actually doing the foal submission mouthing to her own 3 yr old daughter. The daughter took over from that day. So I'm interested to hear from other breeders who may have had similar experiences.


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## Barnacle (14 September 2015)

OP do you have any academic affiliations? Have you published any peer-reviewed papers?


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## sporthorsefrance (14 September 2015)

JillA said:



			I had an alpha mare who controlled all the other horses in her herd with just a flick of an ear, and would take them all on a hike around the track, no arguments. She was easy enough to handle but was never broken to ride because of really badly turned feet. She bred 5 foals, only one of which had pigeon toes, like hers but not as bad. I sold 3 at weaning so can't comment on their characters, but the two I kept to maturity one I broke and kept, and he is a very opinionated gelding, and the other filly I had to have professionally done and then sold. She has ideas of her own, but then she is a mare!! I think her subsequent owner would describe her as slightly challenging but bold. You certainly have to be tactful with both of them.
		
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Can you give me a bit more info please? 
How old was your mare when she had her first foal, and how old when she had the 'bold' filly? Of the 5 foals, which were male & which female?
Would you say that she bred a better class of foal than you expected?
The gelding you kept, was he the first male?
What breeding was the mare?

Many thanks.


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## sporthorsefrance (14 September 2015)

Barnacle said:



			OP do you have any academic affiliations? Have you published any peer-reviewed papers?
		
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Millions.


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## fburton (14 September 2015)

It's just that "alpha mare" doesn't have a definition that everyone can agree on - witness the responses on this thread. The closest thing to a definition that's 'generally accepted' in the scientific literature is that the alpha mare is the most dominant individual, where dominance is 'resource holding potential'. But even then it isn't totally clear cut because dominance may manifest differently depending on what is being competed for. (For example see http://www.ebta.co.uk/faq-dominance.html.)

Assuming we are talking about dominance, there are a couple of generalizations that often (but not always) apply. In more natural family groups where mares raise foals and the female offspring stay with their dams, it is the older mares that are dominant over the youngsters because they always have been. That may also explain why older mares are leaders (in the sense that others tend to follow them), in addition to the fact that they have more experience of life and its dangers. The other is that offspring of dominant mares tend to be dominant within their own age group, and we can speculate how much of this is due to nature vs. nurture.

ETA: I am aware of the recent Czech paper that reports results suggesting that dominance _isn't_ passed on to foals.


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## sporthorsefrance (14 September 2015)

I would have to disagree with the Czech paper and 'dominant within their own age group'. I have 3 generations of proof at home.  Suggest you read about Ellen Parker's theories on Queens of the turf or Reines du Course. It's interesting reading. I'm disappointed with the response to this thread, I'm a breeder & I firmly believe the way forward is to chart the mare, not so much the stallion and the Alpha mare is the way to go. The trouble with breeding is that by the time you are beginning to understand what goes on you are too old to see what happens next. I don't like the word 'dominance', that's not really what it's about - it's survival of the herd. A clever, agile & ultimately courageous mare to lead the herd to food, water & safety. Voilà.


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## ihatework (14 September 2015)

I presume you deal with sports horses.
Genuine and possibly daft question but how do you know a sports mare is or isn't alpha? Usually sports horses aren't managed in family groups, the artificial environment they are bought up in would surely mean a lot of the natural traits aren't witnessed?
I have a mare I would be very interested to observe in a more natural situation, she certainly shows some leader traits (but I do know little about this admittedly)


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## maccachic (14 September 2015)

3 Generations doesn't make proof?  You would need a hell of a lot more to prove these aren't just outliers.  Its going to be a hard asking consider most sport horse are well looked after so there is no need to fight for resources and very few are kept anywhere close to a natural herd situation.

TBs are artificially breed ie no natural selection going on there.  Your best bed would be to document feral herds possibly.

Will have a look at Queens of the Turf but if a winning racehorse defines an alpha then its just a straw man argument.


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## Irish gal (15 September 2015)

What you're saying is interesting Sportshorsefrance, it's just normal heritability by the sounds of it and reinforced through nurture. I reckon whatever applies to one branch, say racing, generally applies to others like jumping. For example the most successful racing stallion in Ireland is Gallileo, he won the usual flat classics before going to stud and is proving a great sire. His trainer was interviewed and said the greatest trait the horse passes on is his mental toughness which is why he is so popular. So it's a psychological trait he appears to be most prized for. 

Similarly a jumper needs the right attributes to succeed and they can also be more tempermental like being a show off and enjoying performing for a crowd or being competitive. I've known talented jumpers that were sensitive and didn't like being the focus of attention in the ring, could jump the moon at home but were put off their game in a show environment.


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## sporthorsefrance (15 September 2015)

maccachic said:



			3 Generations doesn't make proof?  You would need a hell of a lot more to prove these aren't just outliers.  Its going to be a hard asking consider most sport horse are well looked after so there is no need to fight for resources and very few are kept anywhere close to a natural herd situation.

TBs are artificially breed ie no natural selection going on there.  Your best bed would be to document feral herds possibly.

Will have a look at Queens of the Turf but if a winning racehorse defines an alpha then its just a straw man argument.
		
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My broodmares & youngstock are all at home living in a herd situation on over 30 acres. The competition horses are of course in training but lived with the herd for the first 3 years of their lives.  I have 2 unrelated families, one submissive, one not. When the competition horses come home for a break, those belonging to the dominant family are immediately recognised & accepted, the others are not. It has taken 25 years of observing them & living with them to make me think that there is more to Alpha mares than we understand & if, as I believe, the trait is hereditary, that they could be used in conjunction with stallion performance to produce top class competition horses. Just a thought.


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## sporthorsefrance (15 September 2015)

Yes I agree


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## Doormouse (15 September 2015)

My bogof is an alpha mare as was her mother. Both very calm laid back mares who control all the other horses they are with. Mother now sold, daughter is a 4 year old. She never fights or bullies but the rest of the yard all do exactly as she does and will scream for her but not each other. She never calls for anyone!  Gentle and easy to do things with but not interested in humans especially unless they  have  food. Will put up with being kissed etc but has no interest in it. 

Her mother was exactly the same and with both of them they are wiser than their years so to speak.

4 year old just started Autumn hunting and the only thing she is worried about is the horses being in different places. Provided everyone is together she is calm and peaceful but it drives her mad when some horses go one way and some the other. I think because she is an alpha mare she believes they should all stay with her as a herd!


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## sporthorsefrance (15 September 2015)

Doormouse said:



			My bogof is an alpha mare as was her mother. Both very calm laid back mares who control all the other horses they are with. Mother now sold, daughter is a 4 year old. She never fights or bullies but the rest of the yard all do exactly as she does and will scream for her but not each other. She never calls for anyone!  Gentle and easy to do things with but not interested in humans especially unless they  have  food. Will put up with being kissed etc but has no interest in it. 

Her mother was exactly the same and with both of them they are wiser than their years so to speak.

4 year old just started Autumn hunting and the only thing she is worried about is the horses being in different places. Provided everyone is together she is calm and peaceful but it drives her mad when some horses go one way and some the other. I think because she is an alpha mare she believes they should all stay with her as a herd!
		
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Oh yes, that's exactly what I am talking about. Most certainly you have an Alpha family. Is the 4 yr old the first female the mother bred? My experience is that a second filly foal is NOT Alpha but I could be wrong. The lack of interest in humans seems to be a common trait! What is their breeding?


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## Doormouse (15 September 2015)

The 4 year old is a first foal. Her mother was 4 when I bought her and then discovered she was in foal! Dam was by VDL Douglas out of Drumagoland who was by Zero Watt. Foal (now 4) was supposedly by a young jumping bred colt who was running with a couple of mares to continue his line but I suspect she is much more likely to be by a pony!


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## Irish gal (15 September 2015)

That's really interesting about them having no interest in humans, that's exactly like my TB mare, who led a herd of 25, she had zero interest in us. I used to say that if she was a person I would get her a T shirt that read - Humans Are For Losers. 

Her biggest sign of disapproval was to wrinkle one nostril in disgust at both horses and humans behaving in a way she disapproved of. For instance if you petted her, the disgusted look was her reaction! She rarely had to go beyond that to control the herd. Hard to have a bond with her though, she just had no interest, and although well behaved it was clear she just tolerated us.


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## sporthorsefrance (15 September 2015)

Doormouse said:



			The 4 year old is a first foal. Her mother was 4 when I bought her and then discovered she was in foal! Dam was by VDL Douglas out of Drumagoland who was by Zero Watt. Foal (now 4) was supposedly by a young jumping bred colt who was running with a couple of mares to continue his line but I suspect she is much more likely to be by a pony!
		
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Interesting, as Zero Watt has 12 of Ellen Parkers Queens in 6 generations, which is a lot! And was the sire of numerous international eventers.


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## sporthorsefrance (15 September 2015)

Irish gal said:



			That's really interesting about them having no interest in humans, that's exactly like my TB mare, who led a herd of 25, she had zero interest in us. I used to say that if she was a person I would get her a T shirt that read - Humans Are For Losers. 

Her biggest sign of disapproval was to wrinkle one nostril in disgust at both horses and humans behaving in a way she disapproved of. For instance if you petted her, the disgusted look was her reaction! She rarely had to go beyond that to control the herd. Hard to have a bond with her though, she just had no interest, and although well behaved it was clear she just tolerated us.
		
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Was she a first filly foal do you know? Who is she by?


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## Lgd (15 September 2015)

My 7/8 TB mare is the boss and has always been quite a dominant mare with other horses, particularly if there are foals around. Even away at a stud for a spell where she was in the mare herd she often had several foals with her in addition to her own.
She is another who only needs to snake her neck or scowl at a transgressor, it is very rare to see her have to lift a hind leg or apply teeth in discipline. She was far stricter with her colt foal than she was with either of the two filly foals.
Conversely she is is very human orientated and is actually very motherly with kids (and has been since long before she had foals).
Her 9yo daughter is also quite an alpha personality and has taken over a 'second in command' in the herd. She does not challenge her mother even now! Lost the other filly at 10 weeks old so never really knew how she would have been although she was a very bold foal.
The colt is now 5yo and an entire so not in with the mares. He is a very bold personality and if you give him an inch he will take a mile. Not nasty but quite strong willed and very intelligent with it.

All three are on the more intelligent end of the spectrum, my 3yo out of the other mare (Orlov x TB/Connemara) is a bit Tim Nice but Dim (like his mother). All very trainable but the alpha mare and her offspring are far more likely to challenge you.
Sire of the foals from the 7/8TB mare is a KWPN stallion with a good chunk of TB in his lines. The more submissive one from the other mare is from KWPN/German bloodlines.


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## sporthorsefrance (15 September 2015)

tgd - how old is the senior mare? I'm asking because my old mare lost the herd to her daughter at 15, BUT the 3 yr old daughter was in foal, which definitely had something to do with it. We tried to put the old mare back in foal  (she'd had 4 with no probs) but she never took again. However she is a fantastic granny & takes over the foals when her daughter is bored with them. The Alpha mare has just been to stud - she was with 3 other horses in a field with a stone barn for shelter. She laid claim to the barn & wouldn't let the others in.


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## Equi (15 September 2015)

Next year I'll be able to tell more. I've got a subdominant mare in foal to a sub dominant stallion and the foal will be weaned with the alpha mare and head gelding. It will be very interesting to see.


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## Irish gal (15 September 2015)

Yes she was the mare's first foal.

She's by Classic Cliche and out of Laura Croft by Mister Lord. 

This is really thought provoking and could have far reaching consequences for breeding - must read that book!


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## sporthorsefrance (15 September 2015)

Irish gal said:



			Yes she was the mare's first foal.

She's by Classic Cliche and out of Laura Croft by Mister Lord. 

This is really thought provoking and could have far reaching consequences for breeding - must read that book!
		
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She has an amazing 38 TB Queens of the Turf in 6 generations! Many horses with TB genes don't have ANY!


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## Lgd (15 September 2015)

sporthorsefrance said:



			tgd - how old is the senior mare?
		
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She's 26yo now, she was my competition horse first and competed up to Inter I. 
I took her out of competition to breed off her (went to stud a month after being at petplan finals at winter nationals) and had first foal at 17yo. She injured a shoulder which ended her competition career so she went back to stud and had number 2 and 3 at 21yo and 22yo. She's actually still sound and rideable, although I don't ride her as have enough to ride without adding another one back on the roster and she has more than earned a happy retirement other than the odd escort duty for vet visits and competitions. 
Her dam (3/4 TB) was not particularly dominant nor was the maternal granddam (TB x New Forest) but her paternal granddam (full TB) was very dominant and was around when P was a foal. Both of mine are very like her in traits and looks. 
The daughter has just had an ovariectomy as regumate makes her acutely lame and she was throwing up ovarian cysts and retained follicles making her life a misery with pain. Will be interesting to see if that changes her dominant traits, she is already a much happier horse just 3 weeks post-op.


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## sporthorsefrance (15 September 2015)

[
The daughter has just had an ovariectomy as regumate makes her acutely lame and she was throwing up ovarian cysts and retained follicles making her life a misery with pain. Will be interesting to see if that changes her dominant traits, she is already a much happier horse just 3 weeks post-op.[/QUOTE]


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## sporthorsefrance (15 September 2015)

sporthorsefrance said:



			[
The daughter has just had an ovariectomy as regumate makes her acutely lame and she was throwing up ovarian cysts and retained follicles making her life a misery with pain. Will be interesting to see if that changes her dominant traits, she is already a much happier horse just 3 weeks post-op.
		
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[/QUOTE]

Oops pressed wrong button! I would be interested to know how she gets on afterwards. My 6 yr old has hormone problems but Calovet sent her over the top, which isn't supposed to happen! This could be a part of the Alpha thing also.


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## Irish gal (15 September 2015)

sporthorsefrance said:



			She has an amazing 38 TB Queens of the Turf in 6 generations! Many horses with TB genes don't have ANY!
		
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That sounds great, but what does it mean exactly, does it mean she's more likely to produce winners? Her first foal, a filly died within a week; is it only first foals that the Alpha is passed on to, or would colts from her have a higher chance of success then normal because of all the Queens in her family.


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## sporthorsefrance (15 September 2015)

Irish gal said:



			That sounds great, but what does it mean exactly, does it mean she's more likely to produce winners? Her first foal, a filly died within a week; is it only first foals that the Alpha is passed on to, or would colts from her have a higher chance of success then normal because of all the Queens in her family.
		
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I have no experience of a first filly foal dying so I don't know whether in that situation a second filly would take on the Alpha role. The colts would have a higher chance of success, especially the first one, I think. My first colt foal of the second generation went to 3* eventing level & was placed several times at 2*. He was out of the first foal of my original mare & by Classic who is the sire of Classic Moet. There are lots of Queens there & also in her sire line Chantro/Sing Sing. Thanks to Ellen Parker, it's possible to track TB queens but who knows about the queens in other breeds? It would be useful to have a database.


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## Irish gal (15 September 2015)

Well jumpers are also well documented pedigree wise going back up to 10 generations so it should be just the same really to do if you think about it. I've been on her website now for ages and there doesn't seem to be any overview of her theory, just data on every individual mare. I can't seem to find an overview anywhere, perhaps you know of one and can send me a link?

That TB mare is by an Ascot Gold Cup and St Ledger winner so not surprised if there are Queens on his side as he's descended from champions, but her dams lot haven't produced a blacktype winner in few generations, so I'm not sure what all the Queens prove. If the mare's brothers and sisters start winning then she might be worth breeding for the track. Would love to investigate this queens in her family thing further, it's fascinating alright.


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## sporthorsefrance (15 September 2015)

Irish gal said:



			Well jumpers are also well documented pedigree wise going back up to 10 generations so it should be just the same really to do if you think about it. I've been on her website now for ages and there doesn't seem to be any overview of her theory, just data on every individual mare. I can't seem to find an overview anywhere, perhaps you know of one and can send me a link?
		
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## sporthorsefrance (15 September 2015)

Irish gal said:



			Well jumpers are also well documented pedigree wise going back up to 10 generations so it should be just the same really to do if you think about it. I've been on her website now for ages and there doesn't seem to be any overview of her theory, just data on every individual mare. I can't seem to find an overview anywhere, perhaps you know of one and can send me a link?

Pressed wrong button AGAIN! She's really easy to talk to - email her with your questions. I'm not saying that breeding a super horse is down to finding an Alpha mare, I'm saying that after looking at the usual stallion routes for improvement, one should also look at the Alpha mare as a big part of the picture. Spoke to Janet Scollay of the Muschamp stud tonight, she has an Ukrainian staying who is researching Trakhener bloodlines for her degree. Have asked her to try & research the mare lines for Alphas.
If you go on to Thoroughbred Pedigree website, all Queens are starred.
		
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## Irish gal (15 September 2015)

Thanks I see her email on the site, I might do that. It's all very intriguing! I hope you gets lots more feedback from people here for your research and thanks for posting and bringing this to light.


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## Barnacle (16 September 2015)

sporthorsefrance said:



			Millions.
		
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Your concept of an "Alpha mare" came across as vague and ill-defined and I thought such resources might help me - and others who were asking for clarification - to understand what you were referring to. I am familiar with the literature and this is not a concept that is used (or even indicated at) in the way you seem to be implying. Having links to this kind of information (research group, papers etc) would make it much easier for people to get background on the concept so they can provide relevant information and understand what you are asking.

But I'll assume your reply was sarcastic.


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## fburton (16 September 2015)

It seems to me that the term "Alpha mare" has become part of the vernacular for part of the horse world, including some breeders. At least, that is the impression I get from what OP has written. So I think the requested "input" would be more along the lines of anecdote and possibly magazine/newsletter articles than science literature. 

In my opinion it would really help to have a list of "alpha signs" - so we know exactly what's being talked about. There may then be a problem in assuming that because there is such a list, they must all refer to the one unified trait, when in reality they may be aspects of entirely different behavioural traits. For example, people have tended to assume that dominance and "leadership" are aspects of the same temperament or personality type whereas in reality they are quite different, with it being entirely normal for one horse to show one and not the other (notwithstanding individuals that happen to show both). It rather depends how "leadership" is defined. It is a notoriously slippery concept because of the constant temptation to view and interpret it through human-tinted glasses. Of course, some people will choose to define "leadership" _as_ dominance.

But first, can we make a definitive list of the "alpha signs"?


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## Equi (16 September 2015)

fburton said:



			But first, can we make a definitive list of the "alpha signs"?
		
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I would quite like this too. My own mare i feel is alpha, but i have only got two mares a gelding and a stallion so its not really a big herd. She will lead where they go, move them with a flick of her ear, is never aggressive and has never needed to be, will stop a stallion covering the other mare (my gelding who i feel is top boy will also do this) and generally she looks after the herd.


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## Irish gal (16 September 2015)

I don't think herd size matters Equi, she would do the same with two horses or 25. As well as the list of Alpha traits I would love to know what it is these 'alpha' mares are supposed to pass on to their offspring so we can evaluate this hitherto unknown side of their breeding potential. So a lists of those benefits would be great too. I too think it's very confusing, and on that researher's website - there seems to be no overview of her theory which would be of great benefit...so we could actually understand it


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## sporthorsefrance (16 September 2015)

Barnacle said:



			Your concept of an "Alpha mare" came across as vague and ill-defined and I thought such resources might help me - and others who were asking for clarification - to understand what you were referring to. I am familiar with the literature and this is not a concept that is used (or even indicated at) in the way you seem to be implying. Having links to this kind of information (research group, papers etc) would make it much easier for people to get background on the concept so they can provide relevant information and understand what you are asking.

Dear Barnacle
I apologise for being 'sarcastic' but I find your tone rather aggressive, as is so often a problem with the written word. I presume by literature, you mean Ellen Parker's research on Reines de course? I have exchanged many emails with her over the past few years & she firmly believes that her TB queens are in fact Alpha mares, that may not be totally evident in her writings because she is a respected authority on breeding racehorses & her clients are looking for lines, facts & figures. I contacted her originally because to me, her research showed a link to Alpha mares that I wanted to know more about.

Vague & ill defined? Yes maybe. But I'll try & list the traits that I consider to be true Alpha, but they are only my observations.

1. All other members of the herd of any age perform the foal mouthing submission to the mare at some point, especially newcomers.

2. In a situation where the mare is with another family member amongst strange horses (for instance at stud) she will attack them & refuse to allow them contact with her own. I don't think this is so much aggression as rather protection.

3. She will steal & herd foals from other mares. I am often surprised to see fields full of mares & foals together as my mare & her mother before her would have taken them all.

4. The first filly foal from the mare shows exactly the same tendencies

5. They breed better quality foals than themselves - that one's up for more input or argument please!

6. They are exceptionally good mothers, foaling easily, strong foals but encouraged to be totally independent at a very early age.

7. First to the food & everybody else takes what's left.

8. Aloof & only tolerant of humans. Can be friendly & biddable but only on their terms.

9. A shelter or stable is their personal possession & other horses are banned from entering but may occasionally be invited in.

10. Riding them & competing them has to be a partnership not rider dominance. They are never easy but often brilliant.

11. They are very intelligent.

These points are outside of the general behaviour of a lead mare. There is always a lead mare but not necessarily an Alpha.

Ok everyone you can now pull all that apart & disagree!!
		
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## Equi (16 September 2015)

I'll agree with the human part. My mate is incredibly indifferent and not very affectionate anymore (when she first came she was the lowest as my gelding was above her) she was very sweet then. 

I've been working with her lately and she's getting better though so maybe I'm breaking through to her a little.


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## Doormouse (16 September 2015)

My alpha mare was an exceptional mother and from day one taught her daughter manners and independence. The most classic example of this was the first time they travelled when the foal was 3 months old. We arrived at the field and drove in, let the ramp down and I led the mare down the ramp. The foal was horrified and refused to tackle the ramp, her mother looked back, called her once and then walked away. The foal thought for a few seconds and then leaped from the top of the ramp to join her mother. The mare also happily allowed a gelding to be turned out with her and the foal and in fact considered the gelding a babysitter for her foal and would often be the far side of the field while the foal chewed bits of the gelding for entertainment.
The foal, now 4, is definitely even more talented than her mother and has better conformation.
They both felt that their stables were their own personal space and found constant interruption from humans irritating.


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## Irish gal (17 September 2015)

Honestly, isn't it their disdain for humans that is somehow their most endearing quality. I think my Apha mare 'trained me' to just really ignore her in the field as she clearly wanted no fraternisation with me; so I duly respected her wishes and didn't interfere with her. No need whatsoever for scratches behind the ear or elsewhere!


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## Equi (17 September 2015)

Normally that would be fine lol my mare needs a lot of interaction or she gets ridiculously spooky and I can't catch her and she generally gets very stressed out and "wild". More I do with her the more she settles.


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## sporthorsefrance (18 September 2015)

Thanks equi, Irish gal & Doormouse. At least you have responded. Having supplied my definition of an Alpha mare as requested, the subject has completely dried up. I won't be using this forum again. But many thanks for your input you three.


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## Alec Swan (18 September 2015)

sporthorsefrance said:



			Thanks equi, Irish gal & Doormouse. At least you have responded. Having supplied my definition of an Alpha mare as requested, the subject has completely dried up. I won't be using this forum again. But many thanks for your input you three.
		
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That's called 'flouncing',  and flouncing says little for the flouncer!  Rejoin with your thoughts,  please.

The subject is one of interest and to many.  The Irish will tell us,  and correctly that 'It's all in the mammy'.  The black type mares may well NOT be the alpha mares,  and it may well not be the alpha mares which produce the horses that we need,  though filly foals may well follow their dam's disposition,  but is that honestly what we need?  

We gifted a very difficult filly to a very competent girl,  and two years later she's now passed the mare on to a stud.  I shall follow with interest this mare's progeny.  I suspect that her brood-mare status will be short lived.  The breeding was wrong,  and it's that simple.

Alec.


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## dominobrown (18 September 2015)

I work with TB's and we have about 10 mares breeding for racing.
One 2 year old currently is exactly what you would describe as an Alpha mare. She is out with another 7 horses, and although not the oldest she is definitely the leader. 
However, her mother, is not bottom of the pack, but definitely not the Alpha, she won't be bullied, but she follows, normally two other mares are above her. So I am not sure it is heredity, in fact the Alpha broodmares foals are not the leaders, but neither is the most submissive broodmares foals.


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## sporthorsefrance (19 September 2015)

dominobrown said:



			I work with TB's and we have about 10 mares breeding for racing.
One 2 year old currently is exactly what you would describe as an Alpha mare. She is out with another 7 horses, and although not the oldest she is definitely the leader. 
However, her mother, is not bottom of the pack, but definitely not the Alpha, she won't be bullied, but she follows, normally two other mares are above her. So I am not sure it is heredity, in fact the Alpha broodmares foals are not the leaders, but neither is the most submissive broodmares foals.
		
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Thank you, our post is very interesting, so rather than take my bat home at the lack of response, I would like to know a bit more please. 2 is very young to take over but that may be because she's a quick to mature TB. Who is her sire? TBs are easy to trace & I would like to look at her pedigree. Is she the first filly foal of the dam?


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## MotherOfChickens (19 September 2015)

sporthorsefrance said:



			Thank you, our post is very interesting, so rather than take my bat home at the lack of response, I would like to know a bit more please. 2 is very young to take over but that may be because she's a quick to mature TB. Who is her sire? TBs are easy to trace & I would like to look at her pedigree. Is she the first filly foal of the dam?
		
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TBs are no faster to mature than anything else. This could be an interesting area of study but it needs more than anecdata to prove its point.


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## sporthorsefrance (19 September 2015)

MotherOfChickens said:



			TBs are no faster to mature than anything else. This could be an interesting area of study but it needs more than anecdata to prove its point.
		
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Totally agree, which is why I am asking for genuine information & observations in order to be able to delve a bit deeper & accumulate some facts as opposed to fancies. As to TBs maturing, it's my experience that a warmblood type is much slower to mature but everyone has their own opinion. Mature is maybe the wrong word.


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## Alec Swan (19 September 2015)

The eternal question which we ask ourselves is what is the level of input from the mare,  and exactly how is each in coming influence likely to affect the progeny.  Will colt foals or fillies have a tendency towards a gender related behaviour or predisposition tendency?  It's a subject which may benefit from research,  even the anecdotal!

Alec.


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## MotherOfChickens (19 September 2015)

sporthorsefrance said:



			Totally agree, which is why I am asking for genuine information & observations in order to be able to delve a bit deeper & accumulate some facts as opposed to fancies. As to TBs maturing, it's my experience that a warmblood type is much slower to mature but everyone has their own opinion. Mature is maybe the wrong word.
		
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maybe, but this is why the choice of language in such a study is so important. Physiologically and skeletally breeds mature the same  (although draft horses may be on the far end of the bell curve). Musculature may be different but of course there are many different factors affecting that.


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## sporthorsefrance (19 September 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			The eternal question which we ask ourselves is what is the level of input from the mare,  and exactly how is each in coming influence likely to affect the progeny.  Will colt foals or fillies have a tendency towards a gender related behaviour or predisposition tendency?  It's a subject which may benefit from research,  even the anecdotal!

Alec.
		
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Yes I agree with that also. I just feel that maybe too much is attributed to the stallion & mares are for the most part ignored. I know so many people who put their very ordinary mares in foal on a whim to a good stallion & wonder why the offspring is not as good as they'd hoped. Yet a true Alpha mare, (ordinary or not) in my experience, will produce offspring far better than herself. Identifying 'Alpha' is difficult perhaps one should say influential - but that is not exactly right either.


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## sporthorsefrance (19 September 2015)

MotherOfChickens said:



			maybe, but this is why the choice of language in such a study is so important. Physiologically and skeletally breeds mature the same  (although draft horses may be on the far end of the bell curve). Musculature may be different but of course there are many different factors affecting that.
		
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And mentally?


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## MotherOfChickens (19 September 2015)

sporthorsefrance said:



			And mentally?
		
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any comment I make about when or even if, warmbloods ever mature mentally might mean a lynch mob after me


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## sporthorsefrance (19 September 2015)

MotherOfChickens said:



			any comment I make about when or even if, warmbloods ever mature mentally might mean a lynch mob after me 

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I originally said 'warmblood type'!!! Don't get me on to my pet subject of why aren't we breeding true British warmbloods from the Shire, who were originally warhorses not agricultural dumbos. ShirexTBs are fantastic, 2nd generation even better. Very intelligent too!


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## tristar (22 September 2015)

i had an alpha mare, very disinterested In humans, often awkward to catch, and not easy to school, yet had natural talent jumping  if left to do the job, all other horses respected her, one day a gelding notorious for attacking other horses was in her way, she actually bunted him up the bum with her nose and moved him, I closed my eyes, but he just moved away. that pic stays In my mind and you could send out someone for a hack on her and `know` she would bring them back safe.

I now have her gelding grandson, he is very human dominant, able to think for himself, super intelligent, passes everything on the road, with him its a 50 50 relationship sometimes 50 51, just to say `oi`,  I should really do the saying, he learns everything first time, yet I feel he will be super reliable and very genuine, and I feel she has passed a lot on to him, so I think in our case she has dominated through breeding.


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## sporthorsefrance (22 September 2015)

tristar said:



			i had an alpha mare, very disinterested In humans, often awkward to catch, and not easy to school, yet had natural talent jumping  if left to do the job, all other horses respected her, one day a gelding notorious for attacking other horses was in her way, she actually bunted him up the bum with her nose and moved him, I closed my eyes, but he just moved away. that pic stays In my mind and you could send out someone for a hack on her and `know` she would bring them back safe.

I now have her gelding grandson, he is very human dominant, able to think for himself, super intelligent, passes everything on the road, with him its a 50 50 relationship sometimes 50 51, just to say `oi`,  I should really do the saying, he learns everything first time, yet I feel he will be super reliable and very genuine, and I feel she has passed a lot on to him, so I think in our case she has dominated through breeding.
		
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Thank you for sending this info. Was the gelding grandson her first foal? Please respond, so many people don't! My gelding grandson exactly the same and went international, first born from alpha mare.


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## Kathy657 (22 September 2015)

We had an Alpha mare. If she was introduced to a new group she would keep herself to herself, wouldn't look for trouble. If they came close she would roar at them. After a few days they would be following her around the field. If she wanted to go for a drink, she would just look at them , then walk towards the trough & every time they'd all follow.
We bred 3 fillies out of her.


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## honetpot (22 September 2015)

My alpha mare is a Connemara brood mare, has had about nine foals, none with me, she is about 19 now. She hates being caught, not really interested in people and lives with her girlfriends where she is the quiet boss, even of the outwardly bossy younger mare. She has lived out with geldings where she has the most aggressive set of back legs I have ever seen, she will run back at speed kicking out both barrels.
  One of my old mares that I had from three, was 'loved' by every equine, she had a quiet dignity, very sensible and caring, looked after weanlings and got what she wanted because they willingly  shared food with her. When she and the alpha mare were out together on their own they lived totally in separate areas of the paddock, neither seeming to need the other, the quieter mare seemed to have decided if the alpha mare wanted to be boss she would be on her own.


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## tristar (23 September 2015)

hi sporthorsefrance,  the alpha mare grandmother had one filly when in other ownership, then another filly with  us, the gelding is the first foal of that filly.

the alpha grandmother was never aggressive to other horses, they just `knew something` about her, interestingly, I often experienced an elevated mood after riding the alpha mare, and have felt the same with the gelding grandson, and I value this experience greatly.


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## sporthorsefrance (23 September 2015)

tristar said:



			hi sporthorsefrance,  the alpha mare grandmother had one filly when in other ownership, then another filly with  us, the gelding is the first foal of that filly.

the alpha grandmother was never aggressive to other horses, they just `knew something` about her, interestingly, I often experienced an elevated mood after riding the alpha mare, and have felt the same with the gelding grandson, and I value this experience greatly.
		
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Thank you. How many years between the 2 fillies? The second filly - did she show no signs of alpha? That's my experience, second one doesn't. But first colt foal & first filly foal do. But if a first filly is born to a relatively young mare, in the wild she would be cast out by her mother to make a herd of her own.The grandmother of mine never showed more than firmness, but still ruled the herd. Her daughter who took over at 3 (mother was 15) showed more aggression but that has diminished each year, she's now 10 and matured. An interesting thing happened to the first filly foal of the daughter, we weaned her to the 4th foal of her grandmother, her uncle in fact. (Yes I know, bit complicated) but this astounded me. He was a big gentle giant & really looked after her, she adored him. When she went away to be broken, he went round the field & stable yard eating her droppings. Only hers. Definitely not a lack of vitamin thing - more of a 'I won't forget you'. So much we don't understand.
I also know exactly what you mean when you ride the alphas. It's a privilege & an honour.


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## sporthorsefrance (23 September 2015)

, she will run back at speed kicking out both barrels.

Glad someone else has seen that! I never knew horses could canter backwards and kick out at the same time, until they rang me from the stud to say that my young mare (who was there with her mother, both hopefully to be put in foal) was doing exactly that to the other mares. They had to be put in a field on their own & lo & behold only the young Alpha took. Hmmmnh!


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## sporthorsefrance (23 September 2015)

Kathy657 said:



			We had an Alpha mare. If she was introduced to a new group she would keep herself to herself, wouldn't look for trouble. If they came close she would roar at them. After a few days they would be following her around the field. If she wanted to go for a drink, she would just look at them , then walk towards the trough & every time they'd all follow.
We bred 3 fillies out of her.
		
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And was the first filly foal the same?


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## sam72431 (24 September 2015)

Have read this thread with interest I'm not sure I own a true alpha but as have only owned her a short time and unfortunately we only have individual turnout so I have no way of knowing how dominant she is for sure. She seems to be quite picky about certain horses she either likes them or she doesn't and seems to always want to be out in front on rides. My friends horse who is a fairly quiet chap she really doesn't like constantly pulls faces at him but when we went for a ride other day she seemed to be taking to him a bit more and when some horses she didn't know joined us she really didn't like one and didn't want it between her and my friends horse and I had to take her out in front to stop her kicking! She is out of a Moscow society mare I had a look on her dams breeding on the throrough bred pedigree database and although her dam and mares on dam side don't have stars all mares on her grandsire (Moscow society) do? She is a lovely little horse she can be affectionate when it suits her and does seem to like people to a point if she knows them I seem to be developing a fairly good bond with her so far and she will always come to me in the field but I'm not sure whether this is because she isn't in a herd setting or whether it's because she isn't a true alpha? Thanks


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## tristar (28 September 2015)

hi sporthorsefrance, the alpha grandmother had a filly foal at 3 yrs, not ours, then another at 9 yrs, this was the dam of the gelding, she was a very strong minded mare, difficult to say if she was real alpha  as I bought her a companion pony mare and they had their own turnout.

I would say that the alpha grandmother and her grandson are very similar in type, compact with a short back, very powerful quarters, and both have a very straight profile to the head and both have a  single hair whorl midway between the eyes.


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