# RANT. Pink and fluffy would be Parelli- ites should not be allowed to ...



## Enfys (2 May 2011)

have young horses  I need caffeine.......

I am so mad I could SPIT! 

A Boarder wants her yearling trimmed tomorrow, so I thought I'd bring him in overnight with a buddy as the farrier is here early, all the 'ps' and all that. Simple eh?

*NOT*

 I'm sure there _is_ a point to Parelli, stick waving and all that and it has it's good points, somewhere... but she has also made my other youngsters leery too. Enough! She can stop doing it in my paddock. If she doesn't like it she can take him away. 

It took me half an hour to get near him and a halter on...would this be because the owner _*insists*_ on teaching him to 'respect' her space and walks him away from her before she catches him? (I've watched her, but felt it wasn't my place to say anything - her horse, her business etc) 

Walked him (ish) out of the field with his buddy. He planted, OK, young horse, no matter, we'll take our time, I have an hour or so. Then- the little gobshite went for me with his front feet, and I mean WENT, so I let him go (discretion being the better part of valour, and I am not getting paid to get injured) and decided that if she wants her horse trimmed she can damn well teach him to lead and have a few manners first before I handle him (I don't charge to bring in and hold for the farrier, I merely do it as a favour no more) In fact, SHE can jolly well do it herself.

So, he's put himself in a walkway between two paddocks, I'll just take his halter off and let him back in to his paddock. Easy enough. Oh RIGHT

_Three quarters _of an hour later he is still running up and down the walkway (about a quarter mile long) charging right through me and kicking out on the way past. By this time I am wishing I had:

a) a gun, or 
b) another person to help. 
c) another pack of cigarettes on me. None of which I had.

I gave up, opened his gate and so now the little toe-rag is now hurtling around his paddock with his halter and rope on, and he can keep it on all night for all I care. I don't really have other things to do. I have a lot of patience with babies, but it wears pretty thin when they start getting aggressive, this guy doesn't want anything to do with people. 

*If* he was mine he'd be in a stable for a week learning some manners Unfortunately he isn't mine, so he's in a paddock with a halter on, ah well, he'll learn all about not panicking when he stands on his rope then won't he...maybe not such a waste of time after all.


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## Meowy Catkin (2 May 2011)

Oh dear...


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## Natch (2 May 2011)

Faracat said:



			Oh dear... 

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Indeed


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## Crazy Friesian (2 May 2011)

Joy......


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## dumpling (2 May 2011)

Oh dear. No wonder there's so many ill mannered horses out there now.


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## Spudlet (2 May 2011)

I don't understand, assuming the wee sod isn't charging at people in the field, what purpose is served asking him to back up _before_ he's caught, surely it would make more sense to be teaching all that _after_ he's been caught, as part of his groundwork...? Teaching him to lead, go forwards, backwards etc?


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## CalllyH (2 May 2011)

If it's your paddock tell her to do one. I once saw some parrelli it's trying to teach a horse to load by waving a stick at it. Poor horse looked so con fussed. A good pat on the bum and feed in the trailer would have been better


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## babymare (2 May 2011)

ummm never understood the flapping of arms to make horse go back - in my many years a hand on chest does damn well - mmmm very interesting - ohhh btw no carrot stick hands waving or any other things stops my 2 walking out stable, door wide open ,till headcollar on and told " come on sweetie lets go"  - ummm just nice quiet calm handling maybe????????


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## black_horse (2 May 2011)

Spudlet said:



			I don't understand, assuming the wee sod isn't charging at people in the field, what purpose is served asking him to back up _before_ he's caught, surely it would make more sense to be teaching all that _after_ he's been caught, as part of his groundwork...? Teaching him to lead, go forwards, backwards etc? 

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I thought the idea was you only back them up if they place their shoulder in front of you??


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## Damnation (3 May 2011)

Black_Horse said:



			I thought the idea was you only back them up if they place their shoulder in front of you??
		
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Thats what I do with babies.
Enfys - I think you should set your goat on said bad mannered youngsters  (yes I am STILL hooked on your amazing goat!!)


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## Box_Of_Frogs (3 May 2011)

But it's no good ranting at the horse and calling him a gobshite and leaving him turned out with a headcollar and lead rope still on. He wouldn't have been running up and down the walkway for 3/4s of an hour for fun or exercise. He would have been terrified. It's his owner that needs her backside kicking. I hope someone told her that she needed to come up to get the headcollar and lead rope off her youngster before an awful accident was added to his repertoire.


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## Enfys (3 May 2011)

Box_Of_Frogs said:



			But it's no good ranting at the horse and calling him a gobshite  That's the thing, I didn't rant at *HIM*, I came on here and let off steam insteadand leaving him turned out with a headcollar and lead rope still on...and how do *you know *that I didn't go back out 20 minutes later, sit on the round bale talking to the others and feeding them until *he* came up to *me* for a few nuts and the halter came off nice and quietly? You don't. I did.. He wouldn't have been running up and down the walkway for 3/4s of an hour for fun or exercise. He would have been terrified.No he wasn't terrified at all, again, you judge. He had his pasture mates on one side next to him, and his neighbours on the other. He didn't want to be caught because he has been taught to go away when someone approaches and he's fed up to the back teeth with it. I would get within 15 feet and that would be in the middle of the walkway not with him trapped at one end and he'd charge because he wanted to get by and he is a very bright boy and learns very quickly It's his owner that needs her backside kicking. I hope someone told her that she needed to come up I did contact her of course, she can't get near him and has a 'Trainer' booked to come up and get him startedto get the headcollar and lead rope off her youngster before an awful accident was added to his repertoireNo point chasing round and round a field trying to catch him which would probably cause more danger than 20 minutes cool down at the round bale 

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...as a matter of fact I train all my own horses to cope with a long rope dragging from their halters, as if it had come untied or they had pulled away. It trains them that when they step on the rope they just need to lower their heads and step back to release the pressure, no panicking then if they step on their reins or a rope. Common sense.


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## Enfys (3 May 2011)

Box_Of_Frogs said:



			But it's no good ranting at the horse......
		
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You see, the title of the thread was a clue in itself  *RANT*, a verbal outlet of steam/frustration. Ranting is natural, it does more good than harm. 

I didn't lay a finger on the horse, it isn't his fault.

Neither did I say anything that was less than polite and informative to his owner _because_ I did take 20 minutes to calm down.


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## Echo Bravo (3 May 2011)

So I hope she's turned up to catch him. If she's also making your youngsters a bit leery, I tell her to find somewhere else to ruin her youngster.


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## Wagtail (3 May 2011)

Oh I do feel your pain. I have to deal with a similarly 'trained' livery that frequently gets away from his owner on the ground, only to be rewarded with a stroke and a cuddle. Yesterday he tried it on with me and when I wouldn't let go, kicked me in the shoulder! Then I had to let go! 

There is nothing wrong with natural training methods, and I use a lot of them myself, but when they are put in the hands of clueless owners, they are dangerous.

Edited to add: There is nothing pink and fluffy about Parelli. On the contrary, I find a lot of their methods rather harsh.


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## Natch (3 May 2011)

Wagtail, aint no point in recapturing a horse and then beating it up though. I had the misfortune recently to witness a member of yard staff lose hold of a horse who she really should have been prepared for, go and get some nuts, tempt him back to recapture him and then not allow him the nuts, and beat him over the head repeatedly with the rope to "teach him". Only lesson he learnt is not to be caught and when you do expect to be beaten up. Way to go.

Op im glad it all ended well and calmly. I cant for the life of me work out the purpose of he asking him to walk away when she catches him. Is it a back up a couple of steps once the headcollar is on?


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## Wagtail (3 May 2011)

Naturally said:



			Wagtail, aint no point in recapturing a horse and then beating it up though. I had the misfortune recently to witness a member of yard staff lose hold of a horse who she really should have been prepared for, go and get some nuts, tempt him back to recapture him and then not allow him the nuts, and beat him over the head repeatedly with the rope to "teach him". Only lesson he learnt is not to be caught and when you do expect to be beaten up. Way to go.
		
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Totally agree! But this person just lets him go and then gives him a fuss and ends the session. The horse now believes that this is what he is supposed to _do_. When he is behaving he gets zero feedback or praise at all. So what is he to believe? Of _course_ a horse (or dog for that matter) should never be beaten up in any circumstances. What she _should_ do is quietly collect him and immediately return him to the activity (in his case long reining or lungeing) that he was doing.


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## Natch (3 May 2011)

I see. Nowt as queer as folk. I cant decide whats worse, novices thinking they can handle more challenging situations with nh, or novices going the aggressive route instead. Sometimes common sense doesnt make an appearance as often as it should!


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## Enfys (3 May 2011)

Naturally said:



			Op im glad it all ended well and calmly. I cant for the life of me work out the purpose of he asking him to walk away when she catches him. Is it a back up a couple of steps once the headcollar is on?
		
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Oh no, not a back up _after_ being haltered. He gets sent away, is that a better expression? moved on,  arms and whip (not used) used to make him move away from her *before* she tries to get a halter on him. This is why the horse is so confused, and his owner too I think.  

Then when she does get him she stands a ropes length away and waggles the rope, I am not sure why. 
He has absolutely no idea of leading in the conventional "I walk, you walk beside me" manner. 
I am not sure how far my 'place' as YO goes regarding this colt, apart from being completely confused, he is in good shape physically and his feet don't need doing desperately, they'll wait another month.


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## Enfys (3 May 2011)

Echo Bravo said:



			So I hope she's turned up to catch him. If she's also making your youngsters a bit leery, I tell her to find somewhere else to ruin her youngster.
		
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Apparently she did turn up about 8pm last night. The colt wasn't in the barn with Charley when I did evening stables. 

I had been out and taken his halter off shortly after my rant and cooling off period. I realise my rant made me sound as if I *would* have left him like that all night, but unless I really couldn't have caught him I wouldn't have. 

It was merely a rant and I was so  Catch 22, did I leave said colt in the walkway where he could try to get over the fence, or in his paddock?


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## ironhorse (3 May 2011)

Enfys - I'm guessing your ropes are the heavy,thick sort that you can tie up to a ring and pull undone easily so you don't need twine? 
Anyone who's worried about a youngster 'getting tangled in a rope and potentially having an accident' should see these ropes - they're wonderful and so much better than the flimsy, dangerous things we have in the UK! No risk of getting it wrapped round a fetlock, just a useful lesson for a horse (that obviously isn't getting any from his owner!) to learn.


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## Alfie&Milo (3 May 2011)

Sounds like a horrible situation but surely if this is affecting your own youngsters then you have ground to kick her off your yard? 

 Also (without bringing up a major debate about Parelli) I don't feel you should rant about parelli-ites when she doesn't sound very good at general handling of horses, why has she got a youngster if she can't handle it? She sounds like she needs something a bit more up her street.


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## Enfys (3 May 2011)

ironhorse said:



			Enfys - I'm guessing your ropes are the heavy,thick sort that you can tie up to a ring and pull undone easily so you don't need twine? 
Anyone who's worried about a youngster 'getting tangled in a rope and potentially having an accident' should see these ropes - they're wonderful and so much better than the flimsy, dangerous things we have in the UK! No risk of getting it wrapped round a fetlock, just a useful lesson for a horse (that obviously isn't getting any from his owner!) to learn.
		
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Yes, they are very thick and very heavy and about 8 feet long, maybe longer. Now you mention it I can't remember using that sort of rope in the UK.


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## Enfys (3 May 2011)

Alfie&Milo said:



			Sounds like a horrible situation but surely if this is affecting your own youngsters then you have ground to kick her off your yard? No I wouldn't do that, but I will ask her to remove him from the paddock before she plays anymore

 Also (without bringing up a major debate about Parelli) I don't feel you should rant about parelli-ites when she doesn't sound very good at general handling of horses, why has she got a youngster if she can't handle it? She sounds like she needs something a bit more up her street.
		
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The parelli-ite comment was more frustration than anything else, she is adamant that this is the way she wants to go, but seems confused about what comes first. Hopefully her trainer will get her started right. If someone wants to go down that route then it is up to them, not me.


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## Natch (3 May 2011)

Sounds like shes heard that if you cant catch your horse you can try sending him away, aka join up esque, only got very confused in the process. I guess the best you can do is make it clear you are available to advise if she ever wants.

Your first post did sound like you would abandon him, no mention of calling the owner, and that if you had your way he would be sent to jail in the stable and not allowed out   tis what happens when you rant I guess, happens to all of us I think!


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## Tinypony (3 May 2011)

She's faffing around with the "Catching Game".  You're not supposed to send the horse away at all unless it leaves, the point is to encourage the horse to always come to you.  Sigh.
She's obviously not following Parelli that carefully, because they would say that she doesn't have the required level in Parelli training, or "savvy" to be dealing with a young horse.  It sounds as if she's relatively inexperienced in Parelli terms and should really be working with an older, easy horse.
It must be infuriating for you, but in my experience the sort of problem you're likely to encounter if you have novice owners with youngsters at livery.  (Parelli or not).


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## lexiedhb (3 May 2011)

Sounds like a) she hasnt got a diddly squat clue about Parelli or any other training method, and
b) she has created a right little Gob*****e in the process....


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## rossiroo (3 May 2011)

Oh this did make me smile, why is it that the people who do the parrelli thing seem to have youngsters? is it an excuse not to ride them ?the only people that I have met that ride their parrelli 'trained?' horses never seem to get out of walk, but they do have every type of special headcollar/ rope /stick that is sold with the idea. Oh dear I think I may have upset pink n fluffy peeps!


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## Shysmum (3 May 2011)

This is exactly how Natural Horsemanship gets turned into a circus. I use some of it myself (NOT Parelli), and it takes a lot of studying by the human to be able to work with a trained horse - god help any youngster being "taught" by a person who has just picked up a book from a website.

The result is a dangerous, untrained fully grown horse that has no knowledge of how to behave normally around humans, and sees us all as carrot stick waving prats. To be avoided at all costs. NH done properly is surely about the horse _wanting_ to be with the human, and build a relationship. 

Enfys, I hope you get this sorted, and it is quite clear to me you had your rant on here and not at the pony - something a lot of peeps would not have been able to do  

ps your foals are gorgeous !


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## scarymare (3 May 2011)

Very odd behaviour (hers not yours).  I do chase away my youngsters if they invade my space but only because I cant stand them mobbing me when I go into the field - especially when its pitch black.  Don't know much about Parelli but suspect she's got this completely wrong.  If you have youngsters as a very very basic minimum you must be able to catch and lead them in case there is an emergency - that's all I do with mine but it sounds like she's scared to me.


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## Jennyharvey (3 May 2011)

rossiroo said:



			Oh this did make me smile, why is it that the people who do the parrelli thing seem to have youngsters? is it an excuse not to ride them ?the only people that I have met that ride their parrelli 'trained?' horses never seem to get out of walk, but they do have every type of special headcollar/ rope /stick that is sold with the idea. Oh dear I think I may have upset pink n fluffy peeps!
		
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I would have to disagree that all people who do parelli dont ride their horse's.  I know a fair few who do parelli and have horse's schooled to a very high standard.  I myself do NH, but not parelli even tho what i do is very similar, and i ride, jump etc.  I think that a lot of people go down the route of parelli in the hope that they will be able to fix certain behavioural or training issues.  Plus these people might not want to ride, which i dont have a problem with.  If someone would rather have a relationship on the ground, fair enough.  

I think the issue here is not that this person uses parelli, but more about the fact she hasnt got a clue how to do it.


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## myfatpony (3 May 2011)

CalllyH said:



			If it's your paddock tell her to do one. I once saw some parrelli it's trying to teach a horse to load by waving a stick at it. Poor horse looked so con fussed. A good pat on the bum and feed in the trailer would have been better
		
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i agree, some people on my yard do the same, they get these parrelli people to come in and wave sticks and stuff at the horses giving them the fright of their life bless them. but a lot of people do parrelli so it must have some good uses....


Sounds like you've had a stressful day, glass of wine is needed.


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## Echo Bravo (3 May 2011)

I would still ask her to leave as I don't think you would be able to keep your mouth shut, when she really starts to mess up and guess who will get slated and a bad name. YOU


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## Echo Bravo (3 May 2011)

Should have also added nobody likes to see a young horses ruined through, bad handling and managment. And I for one would have said something, that why I say get rid off, pronto


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## dressedkez (3 May 2011)

rossiroo said:



			Oh this did make me smile, why is it that the people who do the parrelli thing seem to have youngsters? is it an excuse not to ride them ?the only people that I have met that ride their parrelli 'trained?' horses never seem to get out of walk, but they do have every type of special headcollar/ rope /stick that is sold with the idea. Oh dear I think I may have upset pink n fluffy peeps!
		
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You are sooo right...... They do give horse people a VERY bad name - and all those poor confused horses / ponies - a nightmare


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## jinglejoys (3 May 2011)

I don't think a gold and silver at the Paralympics is too bad


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## AndySpooner (3 May 2011)

Quite a few myths here.

Parelli people don't ride their horses, complete rubbish.


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## Herpesas (3 May 2011)

My EDT always said he can tell horses who have been trained in the parelli ways cos they're all so bad-mannered to handle.

I must admit, I used to amuse myself watching the fervant parelli followers at my last yard, as they used to spend hours waggling ropes and sticks at their confused/bored looking horses.  They'd tack them up but rarely get on their backs and, if they did, it was only to plod round in walk.

I have no experience of NH myself.  I follow the consistently fair but firm principal and all my horses have always respected my space whilst wanting to be with me (and not through fear either). I went to a Monty Roberts demo once and, although it was very clever, it was just the bond you should naturally build up with a horse but over a much shorter period of time.

I think too many people are looking for a quick fix or a 'kinder' method of training but don't realise that their inexperience/incompetence is often more damaging and results in more 'problem horses' than a regular beating does.  It's the same principle as a snaffle only being kind in kind hands ......


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## mymare (3 May 2011)

Herpesas said:



			My EDT always said he can tell horses who have been trained in the parelli ways cos they're all so bad-mannered to handle.

I must admit, I used to amuse myself watching the fervant parelli followers at my last yard, as they used to spend hours waggling ropes and sticks at their confused/bored looking horses.  They'd tack them up but rarely get on their backs and, if they did, it was only to plod round in walk.

I have no experience of NH myself.  I follow the consistently fair but firm principal and all my horses have always respected my space whilst wanting to be with me (and not through fear either). I went to a Monty Roberts demo once and, although it was very clever, it was just the bond you should naturally build up with a horse but over a much shorter period of time.

I think too many people are looking for a quick fix or a 'kinder' method of training but don't realise that their inexperience/incompetence is often more damaging and results in more 'problem horses' than a regular beating does.  It's the same principle as a snaffle only being kind in kind hands ......
		
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I quite agree!

There's nothing like a trusting, natural bond between you and your horse, and that's something that takes time and patience.  Not half an hour with a stick.


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## calles1984 (4 May 2011)

The first day i got my first youngster he was 10 months old, he got turned out whilst i ahad popped to get a sandwich and upon my return i found him galavanting around an 8 acre field much to his delight... I waited till all the others got their horses in and i still couldnt catch the little monkey, i got a bucket of feed and sat on the floor in the field.  After an hour the cheeky wotsit came over to have a bit of dinner so i gave him a mouthful of chaff got up walked off and sat down again, so this went on for an age over and over it seemed like and as it started to get dark i caught him and brought him in, ever since that my little angel has run up to me in the field, dont know if thats luck or judgement but hopefully she will realise that common sense works better than practice you dont fully understand.


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## Box_Of_Frogs (4 May 2011)

Enfys hun, you said "...then the little gobshite went for me with his front feet". And you said you let him go with his headcollar and lead rope on. You didn't mention re-catching him to remove the headcollar and lead rope, nor did you mention ringing the owner. Because you told the rest of the story in great detail I think it's fair to expect people to not be psychic and to respond to what you DID tell us. I'm not judging at all, I was just startled to hear someone as experienced as you blaming the horse when it is clearly the owner who is at fault. It's people who make horses "bad". They're not born like that.


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## AndySpooner (4 May 2011)

To start a post 'I don't know anything about NH or Parelli, but my opinion is.' 

Firstly makes me laugh at the arrogance, and stupidity.

Secondly makes me so disappointed that someone may read and be taken in by a silly post like that.

I am now going out on my barefoot, Parelli trained chestnut mare, which I will ride at all paces in a headcollar and lead rope. We will be covering about ten miles this morning, moorland, lanes, tracks and quite a lot of road work.

Parelli people don't ride their horses, rubbish.


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## SJcrazee (4 May 2011)

I won't have parelli practiced on my yard - I feel that strongly about it, people are told when they come to view, and TBH I have a couple of happy liveries  who feel as I do.


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## AndySpooner (4 May 2011)

Sjcrazee, its your yard you can do what you like.


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## MerrySherryRider (4 May 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			Parelli people don't ride their horses, rubbish.
		
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Of course,some do. But why is it such a common misconception then ? Is there not a grain of truth in it ?
My personal experience on ordinary livery yards is that, no, they don't. With the exception of one, who would hack out with me if we were not going faster than a walk. Quite frankly, the horse was unsafe on the roads, would go into melt down if bin lorries/tractors/cyclists were encountered.
 Why, on a 80 horse yard, were the handful of  parelli owners, with the above exception, the ones who never rode healthy horses, but played games in the safety of the school ?
 Would I have ridden any of them ? Nope.


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## Amymay (4 May 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			Parelli people don't ride their horses, rubbish.
		
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I'm sure _some_ do.  My experience is, though, that most use Parelli as an excuse _not_ to ride.......  Usually because the thought of getting on a horse (any horse) is just too terrifying......

Good for you, though, Andy


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## tinap (4 May 2011)

I don't think this thread was meant to be a I hate/love parelli arguments just a general, & deserved, rant by OP! I have days with my own pony where I just can't catch him for some god knows reason, most days he is fine, & on those days I have a rant too!! I hope u had a huge glass of wine on your return home! xx


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## amandap (4 May 2011)

Box_Of_Frogs said:



			It's people who make horses "bad". They're not born like that.
		
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Never a truer word said imo.


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## Kokopelli (4 May 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			To start a post 'I don't know anything about NH or Parelli, but my opinion is.' 

Firstly makes me laugh at the arrogance, and stupidity.

Secondly makes me so disappointed that someone may read and be taken in by a silly post like that.

I am now going out on my barefoot, Parelli trained chestnut mare, which I will ride at all paces in a headcollar and lead rope. We will be covering about ten miles this morning, moorland, lanes, tracks and quite a lot of road work.

Parelli people don't ride their horses, rubbish.
		
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Just a word of warning with 3 insurance companies that I know of if your insured and you have an accident on the road you won't be covered unless you have a bridle on. 

If you're not insured you have nothing to worry about.


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## Natch (4 May 2011)

Argh im getting sucked into another parelli debate! 

It can also be seen on many yards that there are many owners who do not ride their horses, and who dont do anything with them. People who dont ride healthy horses for whatever reason will always exist. It could be argued that at least those doing parelli ground skills are doing something with their horses. 

Please nobody tell me that people who do NH with their horses are ruining and or confusing them. Yes theres a lot of that that goes on, probably due to some people learning from dvds alone, but the same could be said for many people practicing traditional methods without instruction from a decent trainer.


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## unbalanced (4 May 2011)

horserider said:



			Of course,some do. But why is it such a common misconception then ? Is there not a grain of truth in it ?
My personal experience on ordinary livery yards is that, no, they don't. With the exception of one, who would hack out with me if we were not going faster than a walk. Quite frankly, the horse was unsafe on the roads, would go into melt down if bin lorries/tractors/cyclists were encountered.
 Why, on a 80 horse yard, were the handful of  parelli owners, with the above exception, the ones who never rode healthy horses, but played games in the safety of the school ?
 Would I have ridden any of them ? Nope.
		
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It's an interesting question actually. I do Parelli and I take the same approach as Andy. I ride most days, hacking, cross country, sponsored rides, dressage, unaff SJ, riding bridleless, some days I play on the ground on line and at liberty... And I would quite happily hack out without the headcollar and leadrope except that my insurance company and the police would probably be very unhappy with me so I stick something on her head so everybody is happy. It's there as a safety net. There are several others at my yard who also do Parelli and they are the same way so I feel strongly that Parelli people do ride.
So why is it commonly thought that we don't? In level 1 it is suggested that you don't ride. Level 1 is about getting safe with the horse on the ground, being able to move it around, being friendly with it, both of you feeling confident with each other. If you have a straightforward horse, you pass through level 1 very quickly and start riding. For example at our yard we have a little girl with her pony who has finished level 1 after 2 lessons. 
However, a lot of people get into Parelli because they have challenging horses that they are looking for solutions to. Until they work through their problems on the ground and get their horses listening and responsive on the ground they certainly shouldn't be getting on their backs and I'm sure we can all agree that often this will involve a fair amount of education for both horse and rider no matter what 'method' of horsemanship one chooses, Parelli or otherwise.
So safety while getting through that first level especially with a challenging horse is one reason for not riding. The second reason is that Parelli students study four savvys whereas most people in the UK do groundwork such as lunging only in order to improve their horse for riding, so riding is the goal. For a Parelli student you can have just as much fun playing with your horse on the ground on line or at liberty as someone else could riding a great dressage test or jumping a clear round. So fun is the other reason. You've just got to do whatever makes you and your horse happy and confident!


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## Amymay (4 May 2011)

Level 1 is about getting safe with the horse on the ground, being able to move it around, being friendly with it, both of you feeling confident with each other.
		
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God, it really is the most awful crock isn't it..................


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## eahotson (4 May 2011)

unbalanced said:



			It's an interesting question actually. I do Parelli and I take the same approach as Andy. I ride most days, hacking, cross country, sponsored rides, dressage, unaff SJ, riding bridleless, some days I play on the ground on line and at liberty... And I would quite happily hack out without the headcollar and leadrope except that my insurance company and the police would probably be very unhappy with me so I stick something on her head so everybody is happy. It's there as a safety net. There are several others at my yard who also do Parelli and they are the same way so I feel strongly that Parelli people do ride.
So why is it commonly thought that we don't? In level 1 it is suggested that you don't ride. Level 1 is about getting safe with the horse on the ground, being able to move it around, being friendly with it, both of you feeling confident with each other. If you have a straightforward horse, you pass through level 1 very quickly and start riding. For example at our yard we have a little girl with her pony who has finished level 1 after 2 lessons. 
However, a lot of people get into Parelli because they have challenging horses that they are looking for solutions to. Until they work through their problems on the ground and get their horses listening and responsive on the ground they certainly shouldn't be getting on their backs and I'm sure we can all agree that often this will involve a fair amount of education for both horse and rider no matter what 'method' of horsemanship one chooses, Parelli or otherwise.
So safety while getting through that first level especially with a challenging horse is one reason for not riding. The second reason is that Parelli students study four savvys whereas most people in the UK do groundwork such as lunging only in order to improve their horse for riding, so riding is the goal. For a Parelli student you can have just as much fun playing with your horse on the ground on line or at liberty as someone else could riding a great dressage test or jumping a clear round. So fun is the other reason. You've just got to do whatever makes you and your horse happy and confident!
		
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Actually I would agree with that.If you have no control on the ground and you and the horse have no confidence in each other, it is unsafe and unpleasant to ride.There is a whole industry growing in Britain around the nervous rider.We have to ask why all this is occuring.I am sure its a complex subject but I feel that at the root of it all is poor teaching and understanding of both ground work skills and riding skills.This reverberates in the compeition world where many people don't want to move up a level in their chosen disicipline even when they have a good horse to do it with and some of the ugly riding you can see usually born of frustration.


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## amandap (4 May 2011)

amymay said:



			God, it really is the most awful crock isn't it..................

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I'm know very little about Parelli but I do feel that being able to move and control a horse (have it trained to lead and move stop when asked etc. calmly.) on the ground is a fundamental requirement to all horsepeoples learning and skill. I read time and time and time again about horses who can't be led to and from the field without dragging their handlers or wearing a chifney.

I wonder if it may be a case of us remembering the 'bad' incidents we have encountered and then assuming that it's the method that is at total fault rather than the human doing it? I know there are many, many people who have good solid and successful partnerships with their horses doing all sorts of ridden stuff who have followed the Parelli method at some time or used aspects of it. So for me to say they don't ride or are frightened of their horses is simply untrue as a generalization.


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## Amymay (4 May 2011)

amandap said:



			I'm know very little about Parelli but I do feel that being able to move and control a horse (have it trained to lead and move stop when asked etc. calmly.) on the ground is a fundamental requirement to all horsepeoples learning and skill. I read time and time and time again about horses who can't be led to and from the field without dragging their handlers or wearing a chifney.
		
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I completely agree.  You don't need to practice Parelli to be able to achieve that.


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## amandap (4 May 2011)

amymay said:



			I completely agree.  You don't need to practice Parelli to be able to achieve that.

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You're right, no of course not.  I was interpreting the quote you commented on.


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## Amymay (4 May 2011)

amandap said:



			I was interpreting the quote you commented on. 

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As what??


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## jsr (4 May 2011)

I went for a hack with a new fellow livery last weekend. Loaded them up and went to the forest, it was a fabulous ride and I enjoyed her company...got back to the car park (we'd arrived separately), I untacked let Kane have a munch then loaded him into my lorry. Turned to see if she was ready to leave...saw the horrible truth....

Horse was being pushed backwards and forwards off the ramp, words to the effect of 'I have your feet, you go where I want please' were being spoken...then out came the stick...

Needless to say I shouted over 'I'm going now Kane is loaded and I don't want to faff around so I'll go back before you'. 30 minute drive back to the yard and by the time she got back there Kane had been washed down, fed and turned out and I was leaving!!!

Don't see the point, her horse was perfectly happy to load first time but she was insisting on moving him on and off the ramp.


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## unbalanced (4 May 2011)

amymay said:



			I completely agree.  You don't need to practice Parelli to be able to achieve that.

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Absolutely. You get people with amazing horsemanship skills who are Parelli and who are BHS and who are neither and you get people who shouldn't be allowed to touch a horse with a ten foot barge pole (or make that carrot stick) who call themselves Parelli, BHS, traditional, whatever. You get good and bad in every breed. Whatever type of horsemanship you claim to practise you should aspire to have a great relationship with your horse on the ground and in the saddle. 

Where knowledge ends, violence begins, natural, traditional, whatever. Violence might be a whip, carrot stick, gadget, doesn't matter. The horse doesn't know what it's called and doesn't care. Done right any sort of good horsemanship is beautiful. 

(And just because something is basic doesn't mean that it isn't worth learning. Don't you have to pass a test in mucking out for BHS stage 1? Lots of people think that's worth doing )


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## Tinypony (4 May 2011)

Naturally said:



			Argh im getting sucked into another parelli debate! 

It can also be seen on many yards that there are many owners who do not ride their horses, and who dont do anything with them. People who dont ride healthy horses for whatever reason will always exist. It could be argued that at least those doing parelli ground skills are doing something with their horses. 

Please nobody tell me that people who do NH with their horses are ruining and or confusing them. Yes theres a lot of that that goes on, probably due to some people learning from dvds alone, but the same could be said for many people practicing traditional methods without instruction from a decent trainer.
		
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Of course.  It's just that people with orange sticks tend to stand out from the crowd a bit.  (A lot of nh'ers don't use orange sticks of course, but get lumped in with orange stick people).

I think there are idiots, and non-riders, and numpties all over the horse world.  Threads like this are always an opportunity for everyone to say how wonderful they are with their horses, but that seems to miss the point to me.  The point is that someone is being an idiot with their horse and causing Op grief surely, what's the fact that some people are really fantastic with their horses got to do with that?

(Don't mind me, I'm a grumpy old woman who has just discovered that there is no milk in the fridge!),


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## amandap (4 May 2011)

amymay said:



			As what??
		
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I meant I was interpreting (in my understanding) the descripotion of level 1 you commented on as... being able to move and lead your horse safely on the ground. That's all.


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## MerrySherryRider (4 May 2011)

amymay said:



			I completely agree.  You don't need to practice Parelli to be able to achieve that.

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Yes, very true, tho' to be fair, Unbalanced makes some good points, as do the other parelli riders.
My issue is that Parelli is not the method to achieve it. I think many people have problems with working from the ground and are not confident in long lining and teaching movements from the ground. How many RI's teach unridden lessons unless specifically asked ?
 How many people jump on rude, hot horses and then wonder why the horse is running away with them ? Common practice is to do a quick lunge and then hop on.
Ground work is not the preserve of parelli or any NH 'brand'. It is the building blocks of good training and practised in classical dressage. Quite old hat really.


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## amandap (4 May 2011)

Tinypony said:



			Threads like this are always an opportunity for everyone to say how wonderful they are with their horses, but that seems to miss the point to me.  The point is that someone is being an idiot with their horse and causing Op grief surely, what's the fact that some people are really fantastic with their horses got to do with that?
		
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Yes, you are SO right there Tinypony. The point is lost in the perenial H&H battle/discussion/debate.


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## Tinypony (4 May 2011)

p.s.  I've just had a think.  Down the lane where I keep my 3 nags there are a total of 13 horses and ponies.  Only 3 are ridden (mine).  Two are too old and retired to ride.  That leaves 8 horses and ponies doing nothing, and in fact they don't even do groundwork, which I think can give horses at least something interesting and exercising to do.  The only person who is nh'y is me (the rider).  I do think this is all down to perception, the Parelli people tend to be lound and proud, and they stick out with their orange sticks and ropes.  When you think about it though, look on an average large livery yard where there are no Parelli people, and you'll see the usual percentage of people who are fairly clueless.

Edited to say, now I've got to get out of my fluffy dressing gown (my work attire, I work from home) and go get some milk before I expire from tea deprivation.  It's a tough life.


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## amandap (4 May 2011)

Tinypony said:



			When you think about it though, look on an average large livery yard where there are no Parelli people, and you'll see the usual percentage of people who are fairly clueless.

Edited to say, now I've got to get out of my fluffy dressing gown (my work attire, I work from home) and go get some milk before I expire from tea deprivation.  It's a tough life.
		
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I agree it is perception in the main. Also coupled with this...


horserider said:



			How many people jump on rude, hot horses and then wonder why the horse is running away with them ? Common practice is to do a quick lunge and then hop on.
Ground work is not the preserve of parelli or any NH 'brand'. It is the building blocks of good training and practised in classical dressage. Quite old hat really.
		
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Many seem to miss the all important ground work out totally and are just interested in riding. 

Edited to remove too much information. lol


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## team barney (4 May 2011)

unbalanced said:



			Level 1 is about getting safe with the horse on the ground, being able to move it around, being friendly with it, both of you feeling confident with each other.
		
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Being friendly with "it", level 1 is about hitting your horse around the head with a rope, and smacking in the face with a carrot stick in preparation for level 2.

Parelli horses do not feel confident, they are conditioned to a state of constant insecurity which results in the suppression of all natural instincts. 

Parelli is a system based entirely on the principles of learned helplessness.


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## Natch (4 May 2011)

Tinypony said:



			(Don't mind me, I'm a grumpy old woman who has just discovered that there is no milk in the fridge!),
		
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I like it! Hope you get your tea deprivation sorted soon 



team barney said:



			Being friendly with "it", level 1 is about hitting your horse around the head with a rope, and smacking in the face with a carrot stick in preparation for level 2.

Parelli horses do not feel confident, they are conditioned to a state of constant insecurity which results in the suppression of all natural instincts. 

Parelli is a system based entirely on the principles of learned helplessness.
		
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Team barney, I come from a similar point of view as you regarding hitting horses in the face with a stick or clip, but you really are *deliberately* missing the point of what level 1 Parelli's *purpose *is. I'm not saying its without its faults, *far *from it, but anyone who has seriously examined and formed their own opinion on parelli knows that. I also feel you are deliberately leading this thread further off its original path.

It does your posting credit no favours whatsoever


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## M_G (4 May 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			To start a post 'I don't know anything about NH or Parelli, but my opinion is.' 

Firstly makes me laugh at the arrogance, and stupidity.

Secondly makes me so disappointed that someone may read and be taken in by a silly post like that.

I am now going out on my barefoot, Parelli trained chestnut mare, which I will ride at all paces in a headcollar and lead rope. We will be covering about ten miles this morning, moorland, lanes, tracks and quite a lot of road work.

Parelli people don't ride their horses, rubbish.
		
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Do you realise that it isn't the done thing to take your barefoot parelli trained chestnut mare onto a public highway in just a headcollar?
You might just find your insurance company walk in the opposite direction if someone were to make a claim,i think its called negligence?


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## Geri (4 May 2011)

Tinypony said:



			p.s.  I've just had a think.  Down the lane where I keep my 3 nags there are a total of 13 horses and ponies.  Only 3 are ridden (mine).  Two are too old and retired to ride.  That leaves 8 horses and ponies doing nothing, and in fact they don't even do groundwork, which I think can give horses at least something interesting and exercising to do.  The only person who is nh'y is me (the rider).  I do think this is all down to perception, the Parelli people tend to be lound and proud, and they stick out with their orange sticks and ropes.  When you think about it though, look on an average large livery yard where there are no Parelli people, and you'll see the usual percentage of people who are fairly clueless.

Edited to say, now I've got to get out of my fluffy dressing gown (my work attire, I work from home) and go get some milk before I expire from tea deprivation.  It's a tough life.
		
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?? 8 horses and ponies doing nothing !!!


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## MerrySherryRider (4 May 2011)

Naturally said:



			I like it! Hope you get your tea deprivation sorted soon 



Team barney, I come from a similar point of view as you regarding hitting horses in the face with a stick or clip, but you really are *deliberately* missing the point of what level 1 Parelli's *purpose *is. I'm not saying its without its faults, *far *from it, but anyone who has seriously examined and formed their own opinion on parelli knows that. I also feel you are deliberately leading this thread further off its original path.

It does your posting credit no favours whatsoever 

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I'd disagree that it does TB little credit. From the Parelli demo's I've been misfortunate enough to see at the NEC, that was the impression I got. Have never managed to stay to the end of one yet. Have had to go outside and have a rollie to calm down.


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## team barney (4 May 2011)

Naturally said:



			I like it! Hope you get your tea deprivation sorted soon 



Team barney, I come from a similar point of view as you regarding hitting horses in the face with a stick or clip, but you really are *deliberately* missing the point of what level 1 Parelli's *purpose *is. I'm not saying its without its faults, *far *from it, but anyone who has seriously examined and formed their own opinion on parelli knows that. I also feel you are deliberately leading this thread further off its original path.

It does your posting credit no favours whatsoever 

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I assure you that I have thoroughly researched Parelli, I have read, watched and examined it in close detail and what Parelli say they are about and what they actually do is an entirely different matter.  Linda Parelli states in the level 1 DVD box set that you should tap your horse on the nose with a carrot stick to prepare for level 2, her words not mine.

I am not impressed by their demonstrations in the slightest, I can ride my horses bareback and bridle-less, without the neck rope.  From my experience neck ropes give an awful lot of control, more than a padded headcollar which is my everyday 'bridle'.  I hate knotted halters and have found them to be nothing but destructive to correct and fair training, they are far to severe.

It was not my intention to take the thread from it's original path but unbalanced's view deserved a reply as it was exactly that.


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## Geri (4 May 2011)

Tinypony said:



			p.s.  I've just had a think.  Down the lane where I keep my 3 nags there are a total of 13 horses and ponies.  Only 3 are ridden (mine).  Two are too old and retired to ride.  That leaves 8 horses and ponies doing nothing, and in fact they don't even do groundwork, which I think can give horses at least something interesting and exercising to do.  The only person who is nh'y is me (the rider).  I do think this is all down to perception, the Parelli people tend to be lound and proud, and they stick out with their orange sticks and ropes.  When you think about it though, look on an average large livery yard where there are no Parelli people, and you'll see the usual percentage of people who are fairly clueless.

Edited to say, now I've got to get out of my fluffy dressing gown (my work attire, I work from home) and go get some milk before I expire from tea deprivation.  It's a tough life.
		
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8 horses and ponies doing nothing ?? are we to assume that all these horses can be ridden/and depending on the type of groundwork involved would depend whether the horse found it interesting or stimulating, there are a few methods out there that if used i would prefer they didnt do anything with their horses. lol


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## Natch (4 May 2011)

Deleted- its going too far off topic now and I'm only repeating myself 

P.S. I may be in danger of coming across as a "parelli-ite" - just to make it clear that I am absolutely not.


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## Flame_ (4 May 2011)

Ha ha Parelli again.

Parelli is a strange and pointless cult that horses and the horse world really could have done without.

And "natural horsemanship" is no more natural than any other form of horsemanship. I'd argue that those folks who do naf all with their horses are applying natural horsemanship in its truest form.


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## Brandy (4 May 2011)

A friend on mine does parelli. I don't. I was asked to bring her youngster in on occasion and have to say he has been very good indeed every time, easy to catch and walked like a little angel. This is not to say I agree with the methods - yes I have seen her using the rope and halter very violently indeed and whacking her horses with the stick. 

My main issue with bringing them in is that they are trained to walk behind her. They are giants, and I feel very nervous at having them behind me! Mine are not giants but one is prone to spooking and would probably run over me if he was behind me, and I feel a little prone with hers behind me. I don;t try to change the way they walk though as it would only confuse them.

Bit of a pointless psot.....


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## TallyHo123 (4 May 2011)

There is always going to be strange people with horses, in fact I don't know many 'normal' people with horses ha!
Get yourself tabs and lot's of vodka!


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## stencilface (4 May 2011)

I do parelli and I didn't even know it!  I regularly chase my sisters horse away from me when he refuses to be caught, only takes him a little while to realise my game is not fun as he is unable to eat any grass.  Must I go buy a carrot stick?!


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## fibelle (4 May 2011)

I'm not into Parelli at all but would would just say that there are plenty of people out there ruining horses by all sorts of methods! Was a spectator at a show at the weekend and boy did I see some terrible 'riding' - the poor horses!

Also, I read with horror that some people think it's ok to hack on roads in a headcollar! No insurance company would cover you & there isn't a court in the land that would find you anything other than negligent! That applies to injury/damage to property/people /dogs not just car accidents so I wouldn't hack like that even off-road. Plus, having no insurance doesn't mean you don't pay out, it means they bankrupt you!!! Seriously NOT a good idea!


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## Natch (4 May 2011)

fibelle said:



			Also, I read with horror that some people think it's ok to hack on roads in a headcollar! No insurance company would cover you & there isn't a court in the land that would find you anything other than negligent! That applies to injury/damage to property/people /dogs not just car accidents so I wouldn't hack like that even off-road. Plus, having no insurance doesn't mean you don't pay out, it means they bankrupt you!!! Seriously NOT a good idea!
		
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I know several people in person, and several users on here who are covered by their insurance company for riding out without a bitted bridle on. If asked, insurance companies (at least, the ones these people have) will write in a clause that specifically says you are covered for riding out in a headcollar/bitless bridle/etc. I asked mine out of interest a while back and they were fine with it, it wouldn't have even cost me any more. 

In my opinion its down to the individual horse, and they way they have been trained.


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## fibelle (4 May 2011)

Thanks Naturally. I am very surprised to hear that. I can understand a bitless bridle but not a headcollar. I still think that a court would find you negligent & that your insurance company would do their damnedest to get out of paying but perhaps I'm just a terrible cynic... ;-)


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## Golf Girl (4 May 2011)

team barney said:



			Being friendly with "it", level 1 is about hitting your horse around the head with a rope, and smacking in the face with a carrot stick in preparation for level 2.

Parelli horses do not feel confident, they are conditioned to a state of constant insecurity which results in the suppression of all natural instincts. 

Parelli is a system based entirely on the principles of learned helplessness.
		
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What absolute rubbish!


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## Amymay (4 May 2011)

Golf Girl said:



			What absolute rubbish!
		
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I think it's spot on, actually.


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## pip6 (4 May 2011)

So if I want to hack in a hackamore, I'd have to have it specifically added into my insurance?


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## Natch (4 May 2011)

fibelle said:



			Thanks Naturally. I am very surprised to hear that. I can understand a bitless bridle but not a headcollar. I still think that a court would find you negligent & that your insurance company would do their damnedest to get out of paying but perhaps I'm just a terrible cynic... ;-)
		
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They're all just different head gear which you use to control and direct a horse with, IMO.  

Wonder what these guy's insurance companies have to say: http://www.msjump.co.uk/bitless.html


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## Rouletterose (4 May 2011)

amymay said:



			I think it's spot on, actually.
		
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Agree.... I'd like to smack them around the face with a metal clip and wave a long rope in their face/eyes push them backwards constantly and then punish them for not moving forwards, I'd also like to make them so scared that they lose all their natural ability and instincts and become depressed to the point that they are not horses anymore but dummies.

Parelli and the likes should be banned, I have seen too many horses/ ponies ruined completely by fluffy bunnies that should never be allowed near a horse, let alone own one.


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## Natch (4 May 2011)

pip6 said:



			So if I want to hack in a hackamore, I'd have to have it specifically added into my insurance?
		
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I don't know, I would imagine it depends on how your policy is worded. I think many people who train their horses without bits are aware of the controversy and potential for people seeing them as at fault should an accident happen, and like to make sure


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## Tinypony (4 May 2011)

Through the Good Horsemanship Society, Fidelius Insurance give public liability cover that specifically covers people riding both bitted and bitless, including rope halters.
However, I've been insured to ride on the public highway in a rope halter or hackamore with both NFU and South Essex insurance, with letters on file confirming that.


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## Tinypony (4 May 2011)

Geri said:



			?? 8 horses and ponies doing nothing !!!
		
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I must correct myself, the horses and ponies eat grass, drink from time to time and wander about a bit.  With the right person I suspect all of them could be ridden.  )

I don't have any objection to people keeping horses and doing nothing with them, I was adding my two pence worth into the "nh people don't ride" debate.


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## ozpoz (4 May 2011)

Rouletterose said:



			Agree.... I'd like to smack them around the face with a metal clip and wave a long rope in their face/eyes push them backwards constantly and then punish them for not moving forwards, I'd also like to make them so scared that they lose all their natural ability and instincts and become depressed to the point that they are not horses anymore but dummies.

Parelli and the likes should be banned, I have seen too many horses/ ponies ruined completely by fluffy bunnies that should never be allowed near a horse, let alone own one.
		
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I have to agree - I really hate that "shutdown" look in a horse.


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## Wagtail (4 May 2011)

Rouletterose said:



			Agree.... I'd like to smack them around the face with a metal clip and wave a long rope in their face/eyes push them backwards constantly and then punish them for not moving forwards, I'd also like to make them so scared that they lose all their natural ability and instincts and become depressed to the point that they are not horses anymore but dummies.

Parelli and the likes should be banned, I have seen too many horses/ ponies ruined completely by fluffy bunnies that should never be allowed near a horse, let alone own one.
		
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Fluffy bunnies smack horses around the face with a metal clip and wave a long rope in their face/eyes?


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## fburton (4 May 2011)

ozpoz said:



			I have to agree - I really hate that "shutdown" look in a horse.
		
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I am quite willing to believe that not all Parellied horses are "shut down" (compliant but resigned, almost robotic in response) in the way you mean. However, I have seen enough of them to know that such horses can be produced by the system.


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## ozpoz (4 May 2011)

Yes , they do, especially when there is a trademark on their rope!


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## Wagtail (4 May 2011)

fburton said:



			I am quite willing to believe that not all Parellied horses are "shut down" (compliant but resigned, almost robotic in response) in the way you mean. However, I have seen enough of them to know that such horses can be produced by the system.
		
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I agree. My sister is an avid Parelli practitioner and her horses are certainly not at all shut down. They are cheeky and exhuberant. But she is very intelligent in her approach and is a natural with horses. I certainly wouldn't want to follow the same path as I don't agree with some of the practices, but I do think that part of it can be extremely useful. We have some very lively 'discussions' at times!


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## Molly'sMama (4 May 2011)

Stencilface said:





  I regularly chase my sisters horse away from me when he refuses to be caught, only takes him a little while to realise my game is not fun as he is unable to eat any grass.  Must I go buy a carrot stick?! 



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Thats what i end up doing . Now the summer paddocks all lush, shes a nightmare to catch , so its headcollar on and im out there minimum of 15 mins :L
but i *HATE* parelli. nuff said. xx


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## RunToEarth (4 May 2011)

The thing that REALLY annoys me is the amount of people who own horses and do not have a clue- I'm certain there should be a licencing scheme if people want to own horses, if not for my sanity, to bring an end to idiots breeding from horses with bad genes, horses being mistreated and general retarded bahaviour. 
I'm also certain that parelli is for idiots, basic equine training and logic completely out of the window, no respect for the horse. 
I've seen Level 1 and Level 2 done, and I think it is completely backwards. I have far too much respect for my horses to poke them with sticks and wave at them. They might get a smack when they misbehave, but they come to call, they are polite on the ground and seldom do anything to merit a smack.


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## AndySpooner (4 May 2011)

Well, we are back from a cracking ride. Have had a quick look through the thread, nice to see that the usual suspects are still banging on about how bad Parelli is, coupled with even more ignorance about insurance. These threads get better and better.


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## eahotson (4 May 2011)

Ah well Andy you see you are just not as good as these people.You would then know that if you thrashed it on the bum, traditional horsemanship style, preferably because it wasn't going forward because of the dutch gag and tight noseband you would be a PROPER horse person and not a Parelli numpty.And for anyone who wants to argue that was EXACTLY how the very traditional AI I knew was teaching a novice rider who thought that because she was an AI she knew what she was doing!


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## 4faults (4 May 2011)

The only experience I have of Parelli is a woman at a yard I was on who had a big young horse who was constantly getting a rope or stick waved in his face, he was the rudest, nastiest horse I have ever met. 
She was looking after another liverys horse for awhile only for other horse to become bolshy and nasty, culminating in her attempting to double barrel her owner when she came back. Turns out the woman had been going into horses stable and sending her to the back, anytime she came forward she would receive a smack in the face so she was very defensive and headshy.

However we also had people on the yard who do things traditionally but have rude, bolshy horses. The reason this woman stood out was that her horse was just awful, so much so that she was eventually asked to leave.

An for the record she never rode her horse, EVER.


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## Rouletterose (4 May 2011)

eahotson said:



			Ah well Andy you see you are just not as good as these people.You would then know that if you thrashed it on the bum, traditional horsemanship style, preferably because it wasn't going forward because of the dutch gag and tight noseband you would be a PROPER horse person and not a Parelli numpty.And for anyone who wants to argue that was EXACTLY how the very traditional AI I knew was teaching a novice rider who thought that because she was an AI she knew what she was doing!
		
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There are a million and one AI's in this country and some of them are not very good, no experience and no natural way with horses, I grant you that and it's a shame about the one you saw teaching the novice.

But Parelli is actually cruel, I did not buy all the horses I've owned over the years to have some bl**dy idiot in cowboy jeans and chaps tell me I should be getting him/her to stand on a bl**dy box, straddle a pi****g great balloon, push said balloon around arena with nose, etc etc, why don't they all go and join the frigging circus!!!!


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## AndySpooner (4 May 2011)

This is getting really pointless, when we start going on about who has the worse horses or who rides less.

I know some excellent traditionalists, as well as some crap ones, same as for NH really.


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## Echo Bravo (4 May 2011)

Can anyone tell me where I can get the very long thick leadropes from.


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## Geri (4 May 2011)

Tinypony said:



			I must correct myself, the horses and ponies eat grass, drink from time to time and wander about a bit.  With the right person I suspect all of them could be ridden.  )

I don't have any objection to people keeping horses and doing nothing with them, I was adding my two pence worth into the "nh people don't ride" debate.
		
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LOL, as your neighbour i feel i must correct you.  To my knowledge there are a lot of horses on this lane that cannot be ridden, those that can be are.

So the right person for these horses would be ?? lol

Sorry to deviate from original thread but just felt i needed to clarify this.


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## Natch (4 May 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			This is getting really pointless
		
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Yup


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## Golf Girl (4 May 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			This is getting really pointless
		
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There really ought to be a dedicated 'Natural Horsemanship' section in the Horse and Hound forums. That way, those who are interested in it and want to discuss it should be able to do so without the 'haters' deliberately setting out to de-rail the discussion as is their wont. As you say Andy, there is a handful of 'usual suspects' who always crawl out of the woodwork when NH and in particular, the 'P' word is mentioned and start throwing ridiculous statements and insults around. Sad really


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## Kokopelli (4 May 2011)

pip6 said:



			So if I want to hack in a hackamore, I'd have to have it specifically added into my insurance?
		
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It depends, if your insurance just says 'bridle' you might be okay but mine specifically says bitted bridle. It might be worth double checking.



AndySpooner said:



			coupled with even more ignorance about insurance. These threads get better and better.
		
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Not really ignorance when I know for a fact unless my horse hasn't got a bridle on whilst on the road he will not be covered, even if I'm just leading.

If you're willing to take the risk that they will cover you in a headcollar then be my guest but that is not a situation I would like to be in.


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## HashRouge (4 May 2011)

I know diddly squat about the ins and outs of Parelli. What I do know is that I've seen some unpleasant videos featuring Linda Parelli working with horses, which suggest she hasn't got a clue what she's doing. On the other hand, I also know that my friend has used Parelli with her gelding since he was a yearling and he is now one of the sweetest, loveliest, well-mannered horses I've ever met. He's had a go at dressage, XC, SJ, Le Trec and endurance and can be handled by any one. I don't know what that means really...maybe just that it's people who ruin horses, regardless of what methods they use.


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## Tinypony (4 May 2011)

Geri said:



			LOL, as your neighbour i feel i must correct you.  To my knowledge there are a lot of horses on this lane that cannot be ridden, those that can be are.

So the right person for these horses would be ?? lol

Sorry to deviate from original thread but just felt i needed to clarify this.
		
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I think you've got the wrong lane Geri.  But even if you had, the point wasn't that the horses could or couldn't be ridden, it was that there are plenty of people who don't "do" Parelli who also choose not to ride.  If you were actually in the same lane as me you would agree that the only person seen riding along it is me, and that's been pretty infrequent over the winter!


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## Tinypony (4 May 2011)

Kokopelli said:



			It depends, if your insurance just says 'bridle' you might be okay but mine specifically says bitted bridle. It might be worth double checking.



Not really ignorance when I know for a fact unless my horse hasn't got a bridle on whilst on the road he will not be covered, even if I'm just leading.

If you're willing to take the risk that they will cover you in a headcollar then be my guest but that is not a situation I would like to be in.
		
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Re insurance, it's easy to be insured to ride bitless, I've given some info earlier in the thread.


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## unbalanced (4 May 2011)

Kokopelli said:



			It depends, if your insurance just says 'bridle' you might be okay but mine specifically says bitted bridle. It might be worth double checking.
.
		
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Mine says nothing. Who are you insured with, if you don't mind me asking? Does that mean you can't even use a conventional hackamore? It's a bit worrying because as you point out, a lot of people might not check.


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## Pearlsasinger (4 May 2011)

Golf Girl said:



			There really ought to be a dedicated 'Natural Horsemanship' section in the Horse and Hound forums. That way, those who are interested in it and want to discuss it should be able to do so without the 'haters' deliberately setting out to de-rail the discussion as is their wont. As you say Andy, there is a handful of 'usual suspects' who always crawl out of the woodwork when NH and in particular, the 'P' word is mentioned and start throwing ridiculous statements and insults around. Sad really 

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What a very good idea!

Then people like OP could rant about their specific situation without the thread being hi-jacked by followers of the Parellis, who appear to have taken this rant as a personal insult and turned the thread, yet again into a 'justification' of their methods.  
OP you have all my sympathy - I do wonder why some people seem to deliberately get horses that they cannot deal with.


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## Golf Girl (4 May 2011)

Pearlsasinger said:



			What a very good idea!

Then people like OP could rant about their specific situation without the thread being hi-jacked by followers of the Parellis, who appear to have taken this rant as a personal insult
		
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Er, I think the title of the thread was intended to provoke confrontation.


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## AndySpooner (5 May 2011)

Off out for another nice long hack this morning.

Weather is ok, not quite as warm as yesterday.


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## Amymay (5 May 2011)

unbalanced said:



			Does that mean you can't even use a conventional hackamore? It's a bit worrying because as you point out, a lot of people might not check.
		
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I can't imagine that an insurance company would have a problem with a hackamore, as it is a _bridle_ offering you ridden control of the horse whilst riding it because of its specific action.  Whereas a headcollar offers no particular control.

Always best to check with your insurance company if you're intending to ride in anything other than a bridle I would suggest.


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## Jennyharvey (5 May 2011)

amymay said:



			I can't imagine that an insurance company would have a problem with a hackamore, as it is a _bridle_ offering you ridden control of the horse whilst riding it because of its specific action.  Whereas a headcollar offers no particular control.

Always best to check with your insurance company if you're intending to ride in anything other than a bridle I would suggest.
		
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The SEIB insurance company says that as long as your in control of your horse, you are fully insured.  

Why do you think you have no control in a headcollar, wheras you do it a bit or hackamore?  All works on pressure being applied.  It doesnt matter where, the mouth or nose, you apply the pressure, the horse will learn to respond to it the same way.


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## MerrySherryRider (5 May 2011)

The Highway Code advises horses to be ridden with a bridle and saddle on the roads. While it isn't a law, much of the code isn't, but if you have an accident, ignoring the highway code isn't going to encourage any insurance company reach into their pockets to payout.
 There's a rider near me who rides her lovely youngsters on the village roads with no saddle, no hat, no hi viz - just a headcollar. Very impressive, but I could ride my super safe bombproofs like that too, only, I'm the numpty riding with a hat, hi viz, bridle and saddle. Why ? Because its responsible.


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## Tinypony (5 May 2011)

Surely this conversation would be a joke in some other countries where riding bitless in all sorts of shapes and forms is considered more normal?  Does Buck Brannaman worry about control when riding in a rope halter or bosal?  I don't think so, and he certainly doesn't have any lack of control.  Riding bitless is part of every day life for many horse people, and with the right training and experience it is as safe as riding with a bit.  (Ponders that some people aren't particularly safe riding with a bit, and I suppose that is down to training and experience as well...)
Google Buck Brannaman if you haven't heard of him.  He's just another cowboy.

Don't get me wrong, I don't see this as a "them and us" situation.  If you prefer to ride in a bit or bitless, that's your choice and I wouldn't criticise it.  I just think it's a shame that there isn't more understanding of the alternatives to riding with a bit, and the application and reasons for riding bitless.  Maybe the BHS could expand their knowledge a bit and then filter some of this into their training?

By the way - it's looking lovely and grey out of my window.  Could it be that the rain is on it's way?  I've got a nice little riding paddock set up at the moment so I'm out of here to play before it starts.  I reckon I can get to ride two of mine (bitless) before I have to drag myself back to the desk to work. (Cheers and vanishes...).


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## Amymay (5 May 2011)

Jennyharvey said:



			Why do you think you have no control in a headcollar, wheras you do it a bit or hackamore?  All works on pressure being applied.  It doesnt matter where, the mouth or nose, you apply the pressure, the horse will learn to respond to it the same way.
		
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I think that once you understand the principles of how a hackamore or bitted bridle works, you'll be in a better position to understand how differently they act from a headcollar.


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## unbalanced (5 May 2011)

amymay said:



			I think that once you understand the principles of how a hackamore or bitted bridle works, you'll be in a better position to understand how differently they act from a headcollar.
		
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I suppose the thing is that there's a whole spectrum of the things. When AndySpooner said he was riding in a headcollar I'm guessing he would have been riding in what I would call a hackamore which is this:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/NATURAL-HACKA...r_Equipment&hash=item23099a7ca3#ht_2376wt_846
as opposed to the flat webbing halter most people use to tie their horse up or the English hackamore that looks like this:
http://www.totally-tack.co.uk/acatalog/shires_equestrian_english_hackamore.html
that most people think of when you say hackamore. And then there's all the other ones in between like the Dr Cook and these ones http://www.bitlessandbarefoot.com/bitless-shop.php that have other different actions. 
JennyHarvey I agree you can train a horse to stop reliably from whatever cue you like whether that is nose pressure mouth pressure neck pressure or whatever. My instructor has a funny story about an ex racehorse she used to ride in a bitted bridle and she had problems stopping. She eventually taught him a one rein stop and then they would stand in the centre of the field and she would smoke a cigarette and he would graze. As her cigarettes were in her pocket, he learnt that his cue to stop was her putting her hand in her pocket! 
Personally I don't believe you can force a horse to stop whatever you put in its mouth. I weigh 60kgs, my pony weighs 400kgs - the only way she will ever do anything for me is if I ask her nicely and convince her that it would be a good idea - making her just isn't going to happen.


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## Shortcut (5 May 2011)

One thing I can't stand in a horse is bad manners and they definatly need to learn from a young age what is wrong and right. Firm but kind is the way I go about with my youngsters. 

There is a lady who rides past my yard with a thin rope head collar with the carrot stick thing. I'm not one for gadgets but I don't think its safe riding on the road with just a head collar... I think natural horsemanship is a great way to work with horses and I admire Monty Roberts in the way he has changed people's thoughts on horses. But I think parelli is almost a money making scheme... :S It's so expensive for one of those kits and I don't think playing games and all this "alpha" thing is that productive, although I don't pretend to know anything about parrelli.

If she has asked you to trim the horse she should have it ready for you in the stable! Bit cheeky asking you to trim it then you have to get it in from the field!


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## Alfie&Milo (5 May 2011)

I feel its sad that there are so many extreme haters of both traditional and natural horsemanship. 
I practise NH but not many of my friends do (we don't argue against each others training methods!), it's not about methods and types, it is all about how it is done. Many of the examples being used against Parelli in this thread sound like a frustrated owner that doesn't understand how they should be doing it properly and why it doesn't work. 

People get frustrated and impatient, it happens in both traditionalists and NH, we all have different opinions but it angers me when people put so much hatred towards the general group of NH people or traditionalists, there are good and bad people in each don't be so judgemental!


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## Golf Girl (5 May 2011)

Alfie&Milo said:



 I feel its sad that there are so many extreme haters of both traditional and natural horsemanship
		
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Are there though? The only 'extreme hate' that exists as far as I'm aware comes from the anti NH (and in particular, the anti-Parelli) camp ....


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## Alfie&Milo (5 May 2011)

well yeah I feel that too but if I'd put extreme haters to Parelli all the traditionalists would hound me for not including the other way round! Oh bugger it I've said it now


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## MerrySherryRider (5 May 2011)

Alfie&Milo said:



			well yeah I feel that too but if I'd put extreme haters to Parelli all the traditionalists would hound me for not including the other way round! Oh bugger it I've said it now 

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Why do you think Parellism incites such a reaction ? I would not call myself a 'traditionalist', like many posters on here, I use all sorts of techniques that work for my horses.
However, Parelli disturbs me, at worst, it downright cruel. I accept that there must be good horsemen out there who use Parelli but I have not met one that is even vaguely competent. That is why I have little respect for those who use it as a training method. The Parelli horses I've encountered are disturbed ones.  I am open to having my mind changed, but so far I haven't come across one in person. They must be hiding somewhere.


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## Wagtail (5 May 2011)

I do think it is a shame that there seems to be so much hate. I think though that the Parelli's are largely to blame in this. They have been caught practicing some very cruel looking methods on camera, so who knows what they do off camera! I think there is a lot of good in Parelli if it is practiced compassionately and skillfully, but for the Parelli's themselves to practice methods that look cruel, even to their followers, is just plain stupid. In addition, the cost of their products is astronomical. I know people who have spent tens of thousands on their products and courses. This makes me angry.

I use a parelli rope halter and long line on any horse that is difficult to handle, and find it far better than a chiffney, and some of their methods to get horses out of your space and to desensitize horses, are excellent, so I don't think it's all bad. 

But it is a great shame that people jump on others that practice Parelli and assume they are all cruel. If done correctly no horse should be hit in the face with the rope clasp, nor hit with a carrot stick. Like anything else, these things only happen if they are practiced unskillfully by people who are clueless about training horses.


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## Alfie&Milo (5 May 2011)

Well I hope you find some soon, I know plenty.


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## Jennyharvey (5 May 2011)

Wagtail said:



			I do think it is a shame that there seems to be so much hate. I think though that the Parelli's are largely to blame in this. They have been caught practicing some very cruel looking methods on camera, so who knows what they do off camera! I think there is a lot of good in Parelli if it is practiced compassionately and skillfully, but for the Parelli's themselves to practice methods that look cruel, even to their followers, is just plain stupid. In addition, the cost of their products is astronomical. I know people who have spent tens of thousands on their products and courses. This makes me angry.

I use a parelli rope halter and long line on any horse that is difficult to handle, and find it far better than a chiffney, and some of their methods to get horses out of your space and to desensitize horses, are excellent, so I don't think it's all bad. 

But it is a great shame that people jump on others that practice Parelli and assume they are all cruel. If done correctly no horse should be hit in the face with the rope clasp, nor hit with a carrot stick. Like anything else, these things only happen if they are practiced unskillfully by people who are clueless about training horses.
		
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I think this is pretty spot on.


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## Wagtail (5 May 2011)

horserider said:



			Why do you think Parellism incites such a reaction ? I would not call myself a 'traditionalist', like many posters on here, I use all sorts of techniques that work for my horses.
However, Parelli disturbs me, at worst, it downright cruel. I accept that there must be good horsemen out there who use Parelli but I have not met one that is even vaguely competent. That is why I have little respect for those who use it as a training method. The Parelli horses I've encountered are disturbed ones.  I am open to having my mind changed, but so far I haven't come across one in person. They must be hiding somewhere.
		
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My sisters horses are full of beans and very happy and confident. They are barefoot, rugless and Parelli trained. 

I am not a Parelliite myself, far from it, I dislike some of the things such as getting the horse to stand on small platforms etc, but I do think that if done well, it can be a very effective and kind training method.


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## Jennyharvey (5 May 2011)

amymay said:



			I think that once you understand the principles of how a hackamore or bitted bridle works, you'll be in a better position to understand how differently they act from a headcollar.
		
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Well, obviously i know how a english hackamore works.  But all bridles work on applying pressure to certain areas of the horse's head.  Be it nose, mouth, poll, chin grove.  But its all pressure.  Thats what i mean.  A hackamore acts on the poll and nose, a halter or headcollar acts on the nose.  

If you long reined a younster from a bitless, they would learn the same cues for stopping and turning, same as if it was bitted.


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## Jennyharvey (5 May 2011)

Shortcut said:



			One thing I can't stand in a horse is bad manners and they definatly need to learn from a young age what is wrong and right. Firm but kind is the way I go about with my youngsters. 

There is a lady who rides past my yard with a thin rope head collar with the carrot stick thing. I'm not one for gadgets but I don't think its safe riding on the road with just a head collar... I think natural horsemanship is a great way to work with horses and I admire Monty Roberts in the way he has changed people's thoughts on horses. But I think parelli is almost a money making scheme... :S It's so expensive for one of those kits and I don't think playing games and all this "alpha" thing is that productive, although I don't pretend to know anything about parrelli.

If she has asked you to trim the horse she should have it ready for you in the stable! Bit cheeky asking you to trim it then you have to get it in from the field!
		
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Before i learnt about riding in a halter, i would have thought the same as you.  But luckily i have been priveleged to have ridden some very well schooled horses in halters, so perhaps you yourself might change your view if you had this same opportunity?  After all, its not the tools we use, its how we use them.  If we teach a horse to respond well to a bit, we will have plenty of control.  Same for the halter, if the horse is taught to be soft and responsive, you would have plenty of control too.  

But i guess, until you ride a well trained bitless horse, you are perfectly intitled to thinking its unsafe.


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## ChristmasPixie (5 May 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			To start a post 'I don't know anything about NH or Parelli, but my opinion is.' 

Firstly makes me laugh at the arrogance, and stupidity.

Secondly makes me so disappointed that someone may read and be taken in by a silly post like that.

I am now going out on my barefoot, Parelli trained chestnut mare, which I will ride at all paces in a headcollar and lead rope. We will be covering about ten miles this morning, moorland, lanes, tracks and quite a lot of road work.

Parelli people don't ride their horses, rubbish.
		
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This does worry me. I have nothing against Parelli, but I do have close friends who have gone down that route with their horses. They too choose to hack on roads with little more than a head collar. Their horses are well trained and 9 times out of 10 behave well, but when it goes wrong it goes very wrong and the total instant loss of control is scary. One of the people in question ended up in hospital after getting trampled on the yard and the other horse is quite capable of shooting off in another direction with the rider out of control. I think in the rocky mountains where there are no roads this is a lovely idea, but on Uk roads the possible consequences are dire, and threatening to other road users. Riding in normal tack is not cruel, just responsible. It would be very interesting to look at how this affects insurance.

I have an ex racer, he was quite nervous when I first got him. I have never used any fancy techniques, never shouted, never smacked and never lost my temper with him. I simply handle and ride him quietly and with the confidence he needs to feel secure in all situations. I now feel there is no situation that could phase us and he is recognised as being one of the quietest, calmest horses on the yard. 

OP good luck with your situation. I hope the other owner finds someone capable to show them how to help their horse trust people again. Thank goodness you are such a good yard owner, I'm sure there are people out there who would have reacted far worse


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## fibelle (5 May 2011)

If someone has taken the time to train their horse in such a way that it can be ridden in just a headcollar, then good on them - I'm sure the horse is very happy with that. 

The point is; that's fair enough when it is being ridden on private land where the rider's only responsibilities are to themself and the horse. When riding in public, one has a responsibility to others and, personally, I don't think riding in a headcollar (I'm not talking about a bitless bridle here) fulfills that brief. 

If nothing else, us riders get bad enough press from i.e. certain motorists without the perception that a rider is recklessly (and that may just be a perception) ridden in just a headcollar.  

We should also be thinking about the message which could be given out to children/less experienced riders who might be tempted to copy this with a horse who isn't so well schooled.


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## Tinypony (5 May 2011)

Horses can get away from you whatever they have on their head or in their mouths.  I have seen friends get into terrible situations while riding in bits, and myself had a cob who could be stopped by nothing if he really decided to leave.  It's scarey, but we're dealing with large animals that are perfectly able to take over from us if they really want to.  Fortunately, even though they get scared sometimes, the training they get from a young age, and hopefully the trust they develop in their riders, means that we can normally have the last say.
Could riding in a bit, or a strong bit, give some a false sense of security?  The good bitless riders I know give a lot of attention to their horses remaining soft and responsive, having good lateral flexion, a good stop and backup.  It may be just the people I know, but I don't see the same attention to those details in my friends who ride with bits.
Again I say - this isn't criticism, it's observation.  
Anyway, back to work.  My plans didn't work out because I got held up on the phone as I was leaving (escaping!) so I only had time for a 10 minute sit on.  Er, I worked on flexion and soft backup.   
	
	
		
		
	


	




Oh, and it didn't rain, just dribbled a bit.


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## brigantia (5 May 2011)

Riding in normal tack is not cruel, just responsible.
		
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I totally agree with this. It's commonsense.


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## Jennyharvey (5 May 2011)

just out if curiosity, for those that think a bitted horse is safer than a bitless horse, why? Is it personal experience? Bad experience? Or is it something u have been taught to believe?

Would u be happy to ride a horse in a bit, that has never been ridden in one before, and still feel in control?


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## Amymay (5 May 2011)

Jennyharvey said:



			just out if curiosity, for those that think a bitted horse is safer than a bitless horse, why? Is it personal experience? Bad experience? Or is it something u have been taught to believe?

Would u be happy to ride a horse in a bit, that has never been ridden in one before, and still feel in control?
		
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It's not a case of bitted or bitless - but bridle or bridleless.  Massive difference.


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## AndySpooner (5 May 2011)

Well, we are back home, unscathed, again. Stayed out longer than anticipated as the sun came out, and I just couldn't bring myself to head for home.

Been  quite busy in the thread I notice. Responsibility, that's the key word, or so it seems.
I think it is totally irresponsible for people to cart about in the countryside putting their faith in a bit, or worse a strong bit. When the thing you all fear and the horse has a massive panic, do you really think you can hold it with a bit. Or do you really think , hurting it in the mouth or whipping it will save you. You will make things far worse. Training is the key, training, training and more training.


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## MerrySherryRider (5 May 2011)

Jennyharvey said:



			just out if curiosity, for those that think a bitted horse is safer than a bitless horse, why? Is it personal experience? Bad experience? Or is it something u have been taught to believe?

Would u be happy to ride a horse in a bit, that has never been ridden in one before, and still feel in control?
		
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 Are we talking about riding in a headcollar or a hackamore when referring to bitless ? And when you refer to headcollar, do you mean a regular leather/webbing one or one of those nasty cord, knotted things, often wrongly fitted and very unkind ? (I'd like to chuck everyone on a very large bonfire.)

I'd be happy to ride a horse in a bit that has never been ridden in one before as I've done it several times with youngsters. Every horse has a first time and its not an issue. Correctly used bits are for communication, not torture.

 Riding in a regular headcollar does not give as much control or safety as a bridle when riding on roads.


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## zandp (5 May 2011)

CalllyH said:



			If it's your paddock tell her to do one. I once saw some parrelli it's trying to teach a horse to load by waving a stick at it. Poor horse looked so con fussed. A good pat on the bum and feed in the trailer would have been better
		
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ditto someone I knew had a youngster who loaded perfectly until he came back from a Parelli course.  Loading after that was a stressed, panicky affair with the horse being encouraged to load by banging the carrot stick on his neck, back and rump.  Horse regularly fell of the ramp and now has a problem loading.


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## jsr (5 May 2011)

So Andy if your horse has a major panic and I mean full blown head for the hills we're all going to die bolt, that your head collar will stop him? No? So guess the whole subject is utterly senseless?

Maybe we should all stop riding on the roads in whatever form of tack we decided on because in reality we are never going to be able to stop a hulking great horse from mowing down little girls and old ladies so lets all stop being so irresponsible and stay at home shall we?


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## AndySpooner (5 May 2011)

My how things have escalated, old ladies, little girls, mown down all round the place. If you are fearful of riding out don't. If you want to use a bit, use one. I don't, so I won't.


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## DragonSlayer (5 May 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			My how things have escalated, old ladies, little girls, mown down all round the place. If you are fearful of riding out don't. If you want to use a bit, use one. I don't, so I won't.
		
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So do you ride on the road in a bitless bridle (Hackamore/Dr.Cooks/Bosal - or whatever is called..or rope halter..) OR a bog-standard headcollar the majority of people use to lead horses and ponies about?

Also, what insurance company do you use if it's just the headcollar or rope halter?


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## DragonSlayer (5 May 2011)

http://www.horseandcountry.tv/news/2010/06/03/bhs-clarifies-bitless-bridle-insurance-policy

Interesting reading, especially the bit where it says -

On the issue of insurance cover, Mr Cory said: As regards your question about the BHS insurance cover, in the event that a rider should ever be called to account for an accident, one can see that s/he might find it difficult to avoid the charge of negligence if it were shown that s/he had chosen to use tack which did not achieve the fullest measure of control. Nevertheless, the £10m of Public Liability cover provided to all Gold Members does not exclude the wearing of bitless bridles, and any indemnity provided by the policy in respect of legal liability to provide compensation (including claimants costs and expenses) would operate.

Not sure how other insurance companies look at it...but one can only assume that if you were on the public highway, and your horse was only wearing a bog-standard headcollar or bit of rope, and your horse bolted, causing an accident, you might end up in serious bother...


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## Amymay (5 May 2011)

DragonSlayer said:



http://www.horseandcountry.tv/news/2010/06/03/bhs-clarifies-bitless-bridle-insurance-policy

Interesting reading, especially the bit where it says -

On the issue of insurance cover, Mr Cory said: As regards your question about the BHS insurance cover, in the event that a rider should ever be called to account for an accident, one can see that s/he might find it difficult to avoid the charge of negligence if it were shown that s/he had chosen to use tack which did not achieve the fullest measure of control. Nevertheless, the £10m of Public Liability cover provided to all Gold Members *does not exclude the wearing of bitless bridles*, and any indemnity provided by the policy in respect of legal liability to provide compensation (including claimants costs and expenses) would operate.

Not sure how other insurance companies look at it...but one can only assume that if you were on the public highway, and your horse was only wearing a bog-standard headcollar or bit of rope, and your horse bolted, causing an accident, you might end up in serious bother...
		
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But it wouldn't exclude bitless bridless - because they are just that bridles.

Whereas a headcollar is not a bitless bridle - it is a headcollar.


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## DragonSlayer (5 May 2011)

amymay said:



			But it wouldn't exclude bitless bridless - because they are just that bridles.

Whereas a headcollar is not a bitless bridle - it is a headcollar.
		
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It's why I asked Andy if he rode in a headcollar as he said..OR a bitless bridle. I can SEE it says it does not exclude bitless bridles..


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## Amymay (5 May 2011)

DragonSlayer said:



			It's why I asked Andy if he rode in a headcollar as he said..OR a bitless bridle. I can SEE it says it does not exclude bitless bridles..
		
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Andy, Jenny and a few others don't seem to be able to differentiate between the two.............


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## DragonSlayer (5 May 2011)

Well, let's hope it's not my truck their horse bolts in front of then when it's only wearing a headcollar....


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## jsr (5 May 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			My how things have escalated, old ladies, little girls, mown down all round the place. If you are fearful of riding out don't. If you want to use a bit, use one. I don't, so I won't.
		
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But you haven't answered my question. Do you think you can hold your horse in a blind bolt with a head collar? You are obvioulsy missing my point, because if you say you can you are a liar..or lucky enough to never have experienced a REAL bolt, and if you say you can't then you've proved my point that nothing is 100% safe so why the whole conversation about bits or no bits? 

BTW I'm not fearful of riding out, do it everyday (just don't bleat on and on about it) but I don't pretend I'm riding a perfect animal who's under my control and every wish is his command.


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## DragonSlayer (5 May 2011)

jsr said:



			But you haven't answered my question. Do you think you can hold your horse in a blind bolt with a head collar? 

BTW I'm not fearful of riding out, do it everyday (just don't bleat on and on about it) but I don't pretend I'm riding a perfect animal who's under my control and every wish is his command. 

Click to expand...

He must be hell of a guy to stop over half a ton of horse if he can....


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## team barney (5 May 2011)

jsr said:



			But you haven't answered my question. Do you think you can hold your horse in a blind bolt with a head collar? You are obvioulsy missing my point, because if you say you can you are a liar..or lucky enough to never have experienced a REAL bolt, and if you say you can't then you've proved my point that nothing is 100% safe so why the whole conversation about bits or no bits? 

BTW I'm not fearful of riding out, do it everyday (just don't bleat on and on about it) but I don't pretend I'm riding a perfect animal who's under my control and every wish is his command. 

Click to expand...

Unfortunately even the strongest bit wont hold a horse who is genuinely bolting.  When a horse bolts putting barbed wire in it's mouth couldn't stop it (not that I've tried).

Have to say though a knotted rope halter does give quiet a lot of control, I rode a strong pony in one once after a recommendation, it didn't suit us (pony hated it) but I had better brakes in the rope halter than in in an english hackamore (r-eschooling fixed all issues and pony now goes happily in an english hackamore, lozenge snaffle or headcollar).


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## Shortcut (5 May 2011)

Jennyharvey said:



			Before i learnt about riding in a halter, i would have thought the same as you.  But luckily i have been priveleged to have ridden some very well schooled horses in halters, so perhaps you yourself might change your view if you had this same opportunity?  After all, its not the tools we use, its how we use them.  If we teach a horse to respond well to a bit, we will have plenty of control.  Same for the halter, if the horse is taught to be soft and responsive, you would have plenty of control too.  

But i guess, until you ride a well trained bitless horse, you are perfectly intitled to thinking its unsafe.
		
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I would probably change my view if I did get the opportunity to ride a horse that is trained correctly in a halter. Horses can be unpredictable animals and if your horse decided to really bolt you couldn't stop it bitted or in a head collar. When I had ponies I used to ride a lot bareback with just a head collar but now I have competition horses I wouldn't do the same.


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## DragonSlayer (5 May 2011)

team barney said:



			Unfortunately even the strongest bit wont hold a horse who is genuinely bolting.  When a horse bolts putting barbed wire in it's mouth couldn't stop it (not that I've tried).

Have to say though a knotted rope halter does give quiet a lot of control, I rode a strong pony in one once after a recommendation, it didn't suit us (pony hated it) but I had better brakes in the rope halter than in in an english hackamore (r-eschooling fixed all issues and pony now goes happily in an english hackamore, lozenge snaffle or headcollar).
		
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The question has come round to this fact now....IF you were riding on the road in headcollar or rope halter, how would it stand in court if your horse bolted? Not a question of the degree of control....the judge is going to want to know why you WERE NOT in control, then you are going to have to go down the route of what is considered safe, and what isn't, and drag into court, all manner of 'experts' in, to try to fight their case. 

If anyone was just riding in a headcollar 'because my horse is XXXX-trained to an inch, blah blah blah....' and the worst happens, be prepared for hell of a fight in court, because thats what you would get.


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## Golf Girl (5 May 2011)

DragonSlayer said:



			The question has come round to this fact now....IF you were riding on the road in headcollar or rope halter, how would it stand in court if your horse bolted? Not a question of the degree of control....the judge is going to want to know why you WERE NOT in control, then you are going to have to go down the route of what is considered safe, and what isn't, and drag into court, all manner of 'experts' in, to try to fight their case. 

If anyone was just riding in a headcollar 'because my horse is XXXX-trained to an inch, blah blah blah....' and the worst happens, be prepared for hell of a fight in court, because thats what you would get.
		
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@Andy are ya scared yet? ARE ya??


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## Jennyharvey (5 May 2011)

So, is it really a question of insurance, rather than control, that people are talking about?  Rather than trying to say that you would have more control in a bit, bitless, instead of a halter/headcollar.

Just wondering, insurance issue aside, why do people think that you have more control in a bitless bridle rather than a halter or headcollar?  All dont have bits, and all work on nose pressure.  Whats the big difference?  Name?  One is called a BRIDLE, the other a halter?  

I think its daft to say that i bitted horse or one ridden in a BITLESS BRIDLE would surely have more control.  Ive seen enough horse's running off with the riders in both, and on the roads.  Like what andy has said, its about TRAINING.  It doesnt matter a damn bit what you use, as long as your horse is familiar with the equipment, and is safe.  Weather that is a bit, bitless or headcollar.  

In regards to insurance for halters, ive really know idea how i stand.  Maybe im covered, because my horses are well trained in them, but at the end of the day, if i had an accident, how would i prove i was in control of my horse.  But at the same time, how does a bitted horse rider prove they are in control of their horse?  If you horse bolt or something on the road, and you were NOT in full control, you could very easily been in as deep **** as me.


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## Jennyharvey (5 May 2011)

Try to tell this guy he doesnt have enough control!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vsou0PWZRMo


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## Jennyharvey (5 May 2011)

Me and bramble, feel free to say i dont have enough control.  
Hes only 4, lightly backed last year in halter, so not perfect.  
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cn0-co0Ds0s
Ps, one of the things i do teach ANY horse, bitted or bitless, is the one rein stop.  Why?  Becasue it acts like an emergency stop, so any time you feel your horse running off, he is easy to bend to a stop.


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## mymare (5 May 2011)

Golf Girl said:



			@Andy are ya scared yet? ARE ya?? 

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Of?


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## fibelle (5 May 2011)

From the Road Traffic Act: 

A failure on the part of a person to observe a provision of the Highway Code shall not of itself render that person liable to criminal proceedings of any kind but any such failure may in any proceedings (whether civil or criminal, and including proceedings for an offence under the Traffic Acts, the M1Public Passenger Vehicles Act 1981 or sections 18 to 23 of the M2Transport Act 1985) be relied upon by any party to the proceedings as tending to establish or negative any liability which is in question in those proceedings.

The Highway Code states that a saddle & bridle should be worn. In not complying, one is leaving ones self open to being found liable - whether insured or not.

I'm sure there are horses who are under control without a bit but, on my opinion (and the eyes of the law), whilst it is not totally foolproof, you stand a much better chance of keeping control in a bridle than in a headcollar.


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## DragonSlayer (5 May 2011)

Jennyharvey said:



			So, is it really a question of insurance, rather than control, that people are talking about?  Rather than trying to say that you would have more control in a bit, bitless, instead of a halter/headcollar.

Just wondering, insurance issue aside, why do people think that you have more control in a bitless bridle rather than a halter or headcollar?  All dont have bits, and all work on nose pressure.  Whats the big difference?  Name?  One is called a BRIDLE, the other a halter?  

I think its daft to say that i bitted horse or one ridden in a BITLESS BRIDLE would surely have more control.  Ive seen enough horse's running off with the riders in both, and on the roads.  Like what andy has said, its about TRAINING.  It doesnt matter a damn bit what you use, as long as your horse is familiar with the equipment, and is safe.  Weather that is a bit, bitless or headcollar.  

In regards to insurance for halters, ive really know idea how i stand.  Maybe im covered, because my horses are well trained in them, but at the end of the day, if i had an accident, how would i prove i was in control of my horse.  But at the same time, how does a bitted horse rider prove they are in control of their horse?  If you horse bolt or something on the road, and you were NOT in full control, you could very easily been in as deep **** as me.
		
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It's the insurance question Im asking, yes. If people want to do Parelli or whatever they want, in my book, they can go ahead if it floats their boat, not for me to dictate what a person does!

I'm just curious as to whether anyone has come up against this anytime, would be very interesting reading....as to whether they proved control or not...

Doesn't have to be a bolt, does it? Something could spook a horse and it could side-step into the path of another vehicle, or treads on a pedestrian on the pavement....

Surely the first question asked would be 'were you in control, and how can you prove it?'...


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## pizzi (5 May 2011)

When I used to exercise hunt horses on the road , I  would ride 1 and lead 1 . To be insured , the led horse had to be in a bridle. Was common sense, I had much more control over very fit horses.


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## fibelle (5 May 2011)

See previous post - failure to observe the Highway Code may be relied upon as "tending to establish...liability" therefore there is, to an extent, a presumption that you are liable.


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## HashRouge (5 May 2011)

Jennyharvey said:



			Try to tell this guy he doesnt have enough control!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vsou0PWZRMo

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That is very impressive!


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## MerrySherryRider (5 May 2011)

Jennyharvey said:



			Before i learnt about riding in a halter, i would have thought the same as you.  But luckily i have been priveleged to have ridden some very well schooled horses in halters, so perhaps you yourself might change your view if you had this same opportunity?  After all, its not the tools we use, its how we use them.  If we teach a horse to respond well to a bit, we will have plenty of control.  Same for the halter, if the horse is taught to be soft and responsive, you would have plenty of control too.  

But i guess, until you ride a well trained bitless horse, you are perfectly intitled to thinking its unsafe.
		
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 Still not sure what you mean by bitless ? Dr Cook, hackamore, nasty NH stringy,knotty thing or bog standard leather headcollar ?
 You and another poster refer to training as being all you need to have complete control and safety. Not so. Even Mark Rashid and Buck Brannaman have had their own horses bolt with them, not client 'problem' horses. I'm guessing these are pretty well trained and well ridden.
 Given the choice, I think mine would rather be ridden in a snaffle than a NH halter. They are very harsh, particularly when incorrectly fitted.
 Mine go quite happily in a headcollar, but for riding in traffic, I'd rather be covered by insurance. If you are not sure if you have public liability insurance cover, perhaps its not very responsible be on the roads.


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## Kokopelli (5 May 2011)

To ride out in a headcollar is negligent and dangerous to other road users, give me a good argument that you have more control in a bog standard headcollar then a bridle (bitless or non) then I will change my mind.

I ride in a helmet, doesn't mean I'm going to fall of and hit my head but if I do I'm protected.

My horse hacks in a bit (and a pelham at that I should burn in hell or something  ) I don't want to have to use the bit but if he spooks at something or gets excited then I have that extra bit of control. (I think bitless bridles are okay but a headcollar is different.)

If one of your horses damages my property whilst in a headcollar on the road I would sue the hell out of you, end of.


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## team barney (5 May 2011)

horserider said:



			Given the choice, I think mine would rather be ridden in a snaffle than a NH halter. They are very harsh, particularly when incorrectly fitted.
		
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Totally agree, rope halters are a nasty bit of equipment and so rarely correctly fitted.


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## AndySpooner (5 May 2011)

For the record, I ride in a natural hackamore, so I guess you could call it a type of bridle, though to me it is more of a headcollar than bridle.

Yes, I can get insurance.

No matter what you do, or how good you are, you can never say that your horse might not get you into a sticky situation. But, you have to accept that these things happen and minimize the risks.

Before I got into NH and trained in a more traditional way, I had a few horses bolt and to be frank once they had taken hold of the bit, were impossible to stop. 

Now I train everything to stop on one rein. In my view, when a horse bolts in a natural hackamore, and is trained to a one rein stop, because the leverage is better, I have been able to regain control easier than in a bit.  

Once the neck bends the hind quarters disengage if your lucky, otherwise, you have to go in tight circles.


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## Jennyharvey (5 May 2011)

DragonSlayer said:



			It's the insurance question Im asking, yes. If people want to do Parelli or whatever they want, in my book, they can go ahead if it floats their boat, not for me to dictate what a person does!

I'm just curious as to whether anyone has come up against this anytime, would be very interesting reading....as to whether they proved control or not...

Doesn't have to be a bolt, does it? Something could spook a horse and it could side-step into the path of another vehicle, or treads on a pedestrian on the pavement....
Surely the first question asked would be 'were you in control, and how can you prove it?'...
		
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In all fairness, a bitted horse can spook just as easily and can cause an accident.  If your horse causes an accident, whether bitted or bitless, your gonna be in trouble.


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## Tinypony (5 May 2011)

One rein will always make it easier to stop, in a bit or a halter etc.  However, I personally feel more comfortable if I have to take a real hold on one rein to be doing it in a halter.  The halter is not a soft piece of equipment when used that way, and it still puts a lot of pressure on the horse when you use it to stop a bolt, but I feel I'd rather take a hold that way than on a bit.  I'd really hate to do that in a bosal, which is a very deceiving piece of equipment as it just looks like a nice thick noseband.  I could stop my big bolty cob in about the same distance, using the same 1 rein stop, regardless of whether or not I was riding in a rope hackamore or a strong bit.  I couldn't prevent him leaving in either. That's my own personal unscientific bit of scarey research!
I think that a lot of people here are trying really hard to maintain that they aren't saying one is better than the other - bit or bitless, however you wrap it up - they are saying that the control is no more or less in either option.
People seem to think that Dr Cook's bridles might give more control than a rope halter.  I suspect that isn't the case.  Dr Cook's don't release well, and I think the constant pressure desensitises the horse.  A rope halter, bosal or rope hackamore however, should be in the "neutral", no pressure position for most of the time.  That means that when the rider picks up the rein there is an instant feel and it means something because there wasn't constant pressure before.  (I think that applies to how a bit can be used as well).  
I agree with some comments, some rope halters are a horrible fit.  They should be fitted correctly to the individual horse.  I've got a couple where the knots aren't perfectly positioned, but I'm very careful to avoid dangly nosebands.
As for the insurance question, I'm just not going to repeat the information I've given earlier again.  If an insurance company is OK with insuring and supporting a "bitless" rider then I think that should be good enough, even for the H+H legal eagles.
That's all said in the spirit of sharing information and views, I'm really not interested in fighting and arguing over which is "best".


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## Flame_ (5 May 2011)

I understand why horses who are particularly tricky in the mouth end up bitless, and horses with riders with terrible hands, but otherwise why not use a bit? Are you trying to show off how great you are? Do you think your horse can't be comfy in a bit, because most seem to manage, and bits work pretty well for the likes of Carl Hester so they can't be too bad for horses, can they? Is it because Parelli or someone says not to use bits? 

It just seems random to me.


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## Kallibear (5 May 2011)

Mine all ride in a headcollar and have just as much control as with a bit. More for one horse, as a lot of bit pressure (as you would have to apply to 'control' him in a difficult situation) makes him panicy and therefore harder to control.

Why exactly should a bit give you more 'control' than a well fitted headcollar with reins? Mine are well trained to stop and turn to the pressure on a headcollar. They do the same in a bit. Surely the only difference is you can cause your horse a larger amount of pain with a bit? I'd rather not have to hurt them to make them do as I ask. And as that's not the point of a bit (i'm well aware it's a communication tool, not a torture instrument, before anyone goes off on one ) surely there's therefore no difference between the two for a well trained horse. One puts pressure on the mouth, the other on the nose, and hugs harder to hurt them with a headcollar.

I couldn't stop a blind panicing horse in a headcollar but neither can I stop one in a bit. In fact the bit may well make it worse by adding pain to an already panicing and stressed horse.

As someone else said I can't _force_ 500kg of horse to do what I want, I have to rely on it's cooperation.


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## Jennyharvey (5 May 2011)

horserider said:



			Still not sure what you mean by bitless ? Dr Cook, hackamore, nasty NH stringy,knotty thing or bog standard leather headcollar ?
 You and another poster refer to training as being all you need to have complete control and safety. Not so. Even Mark Rashid and Buck Brannaman have had their own horses bolt with them, not client 'problem' horses. I'm guessing these are pretty well trained and well ridden.
 Given the choice, I think mine would rather be ridden in a snaffle than a NH halter. They are very harsh, particularly when incorrectly fitted.
 Mine go quite happily in a headcollar, but for riding in traffic, I'd rather be covered by insurance. If you are not sure if you have public liability insurance cover, perhaps its not very responsible be on the roads.
		
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well, for me it is about training.  I would rather use training, rather than force, to control my horse.  No amount of training will prevent a horse spooking, its in their nature.  But what we can do is teach the horse to come back to us, whether by pulling both reins, or using a one rein stop, whichever has been taught to the horse.  If we train the horse to respond quicker to our aids, we are going to be in much better control.  

If you dont think that training is all it takes, what do you think it does take?  
Guts, luck, skill, bits, gadgets? you tell me.  

I trained a bolter a few years ago.  Her owner asked me to help because her and her daughter couldnt stop her.  
She bolted ones with me, luckily in the round pen so she couldnt go too far.  
I knew that strengh wasnt gonna cut it.  So i had to use training, or tactic you could call it.  
I spent the first two weeks riding in circles, so anytime she wanted to go, i had one rein shorter to bend her to a stop.  Eventually i started to ride her in bigger circles when she bolted less, but i always did one rein stops because two reins wouldnt have stopped her.  Eventually i was able to canter around the arena and jump her, because her bolting had nearly stopped.  She actually got to the stage that when she felt scared and wanted to go, she would bend automatically.  I had taught her to deal with her fear differently, by bending and relying on my guidance, rather than trying to escape.  
I did all this in a rope halter, and in a bridle as her owner was a child and i would never encourage a child to ride without the tack she is use too.  

I think thats its just ignorance when people dont understand how the horse responds to pressure.  And to think that a bit is gonna stop a horse in any situation, and a halter wont, is rediculous.  Like ive said lots before, its not the tools used, but how they are used that dictates how responsive to your aids the horse is.

ps , i ride in a rope halter mostly, but do own a dr cooks and a few libby's scrawbrid bridles.  Contrary to popular belief, the rope halter is not used to inflict pain.  Well, thats not what ive learnt to use it for.  Nothing we use should hurt our horses, its how its used that makes the difference.  If used harshly, it can hurt.  Same as a bit, whip, spurs etc.


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## Jennyharvey (5 May 2011)

Flame_ said:



			I understand why horses who are particularly tricky in the mouth end up bitless, and horses with riders with terrible hands, but otherwise why not use a bit? Are you trying to show off how great you are? Do you think your horse can't be comfy in a bit, because most seem to manage, and bits work pretty well for the likes of Carl Hester so they can't be too bad for horses, can they? Is it because Parelli or someone says not to use bits? 

It just seems random to me.
		
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So if carl hester said jump off a cliff, you would do it?

Im sure my horse's will be perfectly happy in a bit, when trained in one, but at the end of the day, why should i use one?  I dont have a problem with people who choose to use bits, i just prefer to ride in, in my opinion, kinder tack.  

I really couldnt give a toss if all the best riders use bits, i dont look up to them in the slightest.  I believe the bit hurts the horse, because its in a VERY sensitive part of the horse's anatomy, even more sensitive than the nose.  Thats why i dont use bits.  Plus im not a fan of parelli, so have no idea what his views are on the matter.  As far as i know, he still rides his horse's in a bit. 

Ps, i have no interest in showing off.  If i was, i would be out competing and showing off how high my horse can jump, or how easy he is to stop.  But i really couldnt care less.


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## Jennyharvey (5 May 2011)

Flame_ said:



I understand why horses who are particularly tricky in the mouth end up bitless, and horses with riders with terrible hands, but otherwise why not use a bit? Are you trying to show off how great you are? Do you think your horse can't be comfy in a bit, because most seem to manage, and bits work pretty well for the likes of Carl Hester so they can't be too bad for horses, can they? Is it because Parelli or someone says not to use bits? 

It just seems random to me.
		
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So, if a horse dislikes being in a bit, but are quite happy being bitless, what does this tell you.  And why not use a bit? Why the hell use one in the first place.  Its traditional, it has ALWAYS been done, same as shoeing, and if its been around forever, i guess it couldnt be bad, could it?  Dont forget, smoking was onces considered safe, and non harmful, but luckily people have realised this is not the case.  

I really dont mind who rides in a bit, but its about time people stopped being so single minded and accept there are other, and possbly better, ways to train a horse other than ways that have been around since the dawn of time.


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## team barney (5 May 2011)

Flame_ said:



			I understand why horses who are particularly tricky in the mouth end up bitless, and horses with riders with terrible hands, but otherwise why not use a bit? Are you trying to show off how great you are? Do you think your horse can't be comfy in a bit, because most seem to manage, and bits work pretty well for the likes of Carl Hester so they can't be too bad for horses, can they? Is it because Parelli or someone says not to use bits? 

It just seems random to me.
		
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I don't see the need for a bit, my horses will go "on the bit" and do at the very least basic dressage movements (leg yield, shoulder in etc.) whilst ridden in headcollars.  I also jump (up to 4'6") and hack bitless, is suits my horses and I have never had any control issues.  
In fact the only times I haven't had any control on a horse has been with bitted horses, not that being bitless wouldn't have offered me more control but it certainly couldn't have offered any less.

My horses will all accept a snaffle, but they are far happier in their padded headcollars or hackamores.  It also means I can clip on two lead ropes jump on bare back in the field and school.

No one told me to not use a bit, I don't adhere to a school of training, and I certainly don't have terrible hands.


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## RunToEarth (5 May 2011)

The last two pages of this thread form a very good argument why no horses should be allowed on the roads at all, bitted, bridled, hi vized or whatever tickles your fancy. 
I have seen so many idiots (both with bridles and without) riding around the roads this easter in such a way it makes my ears hurt with anger, and I honestly believe if I weren't horsey I would be completely unamused and seriously question just why I should "pass wide and slow." 
The more I think about this responsibility, the more I wonder why people ride on the roads, when there are so many other complete and utter doorknob roadusers about. 
At the end of the day I'm not bothered whether you are riding your horse in an english gag or a dishcloth, if you can't control it, you shouldn't have it there. I know all horses can "bolt blind with fear" but that argument also does not help the equestrian enthusiast's argument for riding on public highways either... 
Just saying


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## Kallibear (5 May 2011)

You're quite right RuntoEarth. There are plenty of horses who shouldn't be on the roads, bitted, bitless or otherwise. Mine are thankfully well trained, sensible and good with traffic but I know some (inc one horse who is parelli'd to death who has so little control they shouldn't be allowed out the school. But that'd due to training (and partically temperament) rather than the gadget on their head used to control them.


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## AndySpooner (6 May 2011)

As I've said before, there is an element of risk in everything, and all you can do is minimize the risk. Most accidents are young male drivers, if you stopped them driving until they were 30 there would be less accidents than stopping horses from using roads. Accidents will always happen, but, to be in constant fear is stupid, and your horse knows your frightened. 'A  coward dies a thousand deaths, a brave man dies but one.'


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## jeeve (6 May 2011)

Jenny Harvey - Good points raised. I know that Pat & Linda do use bits with their horses, they start with the halters but progress to bits, in later stages of training.

I use both rope halters and the kids ride around home, and occasionally hack down the road in them, and also we use bits. (Pony club and some adult riding clubs still insist on a bit in the horses mouth). I have found no difference in the way the horse goes regardless of whether they have a bit or not. For years and years I used the rope halters only, my horses were always responsive in them, whether they had been ridden in one before or not.

The horses seem to like the halters, I have had mys sons horse take off with him with a bit (kimblewick) and he could not stop him, it is not tools or strength but knowledge and experience that help you out in a situation like that (horse bolting etc).


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## DragonSlayer (6 May 2011)

Jennyharvey said:



			In all fairness, a bitted horse can spook just as easily and can cause an accident.  If your horse causes an accident, whether bitted or bitless, your gonna be in trouble.
		
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You are not getting what I am saying. IF you were in just a HEADCOLLAR and this happened, then you will be liable I am sure, forget the bridle....we are talking headcollar and who knows....rope halter....?

I have SEEN people riding in just a rope halter and it had a fancy name, but my argument is, it's all very well being 'au natural'......but in court, those people are not going to have a leg to stand on....are they?

You are going to have a better chance I'm sure, if your horse has what is considered a 'bridle'...bitted or otherwise. In a court of law, will they be interested in Natural Horsemanship? If the judge/jury/lawyers are not horsey, will they know what it means? Doubtful the parents of the kid your horse leapt on will care two hoots....they just want justice.....I am sure it will be seen as an accident if you had a bridle, and your insurance will pay whatever. If you are using a headcollar, then will the insurance cough up? Doubtful, then the rider is up the swannie without a paddle. 'It is in my opinion, Mr Bloggs, that if you had been using a bridle on your horse, this accident might have been avoided....therefore....'....

I said before, to anyone, I don't care what people do, but for goodness sake, if you are on a public highway, make sure you are correctly bridled, and get over this 'but my horse is so well-trained and only needs this halter/headcollar'....and understand the repercussions of your 'morals with regards to your horses'.....

Mr. Spooner answered my question about a bridle, so thankyou for that, I just get the impression from some others, that this 'Natural Horsemanship' often weighs heavy over sense and the legalities of the road....


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## AndySpooner (6 May 2011)

I think a Court would make a considered judgment when the argument was put, using expert witnesses for and against the use of a bit for control.

My non horsey friends have no difficulty in appreciating how I do certain things, but they haven't been brainwashed by tradition.

Courts like everything else evolve through stated cases, so some insurance company trying to wriggle out of its financial obligation would soon be exposed.

The answer to all this is not bits and bridles or lack of , its training.


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## Amymay (6 May 2011)

Just wondering, insurance issue aside, why do people think that you have more control in a bitless bridle rather than a halter or headcollar
		
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As I said earlier, once you understand the principles of how they work you would understand the differences in how they work - clearly.

Worlds apart....................


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## Jennyharvey (6 May 2011)

amymay said:



			As I said earlier, once you understand the principles of how they work you would understand the differences in how they work - clearly.

Worlds apart....................
		
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Well, obviously im clueless as to this, so please enlighten me.


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## unbalanced (6 May 2011)

amymay said:



			As I said earlier, once you understand the principles of how they work you would understand the differences in how they work - clearly.

Worlds apart....................
		
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As I understand it:

Western curb bridle applies pressure to tongue, bars of mouth, poll, curb groove, can't isolate which side of mouth, dependent on neck rein to turn. Leverage action. 

Double bridle applies pressure to: tongue, bars of mouth, poll, curb groove, corners of mouth, depending on which rein is used. Leverage action on curb bit. 

Snaffle bridle applies pressure to: tongue, bars of mouth, corners of mouth, can be used with a one rein stop in an emergency. No leverage action. 

English hackamore applies pressure to: nose, back of jaw, poll. I've never actually used one but I imagine you can teach a horse to bend perfectly well in it. Uses leverage action.

Combination bridle (like Myler) applies pressure to: tongue, corners of mouth, bars of mouth, back of jaw, nose, poll, you can have a one rein emergency stop and more nose/mouth pressure depending on how you attach the reins to the bit according to your/your horse's preference. Leverage action.

Dr Cook type bridle: hugs whole head so applies pressure to opposite side of head to rein aid and tightens on head when reins are tightened. No leverage action. 

Natural Rope hackamore applies pressure to: nose, opposite side of head. Won't tighten when reins are tightened. No leverage action. 

I'm sure I've missed a few but this should get us started....


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## amandap (6 May 2011)

Being a numpty, fool and having no competative experience and a bit old and crumbly to ride well now I think this insurance and general reliance on bits, restraint,  punishment and pain is symbolic of how we view horses. We have to _control_ them. The fact that, as many have stated, no human is actually strong enough to hold a bolting or scared horse, then bits, sticks and other tack used for control is just deluding ourselves (humans) that this will stop an accident.  Insurance companies are notiorius for getting out of paying and will find any chink to proove YOU were at fault.
I believe it also deludes us into taking more risks ie. perhaps riding out when a horse isn't trained enough or desensitized enough . We skip some of the foundations of training a horse and teaching him about the world outside, in our rush to get in the saddle and go...

I take the view these days that if we TRAIN horses to respond to our requests, that is the better option for safety in general. Of course the untoward will always happen and so will true accidents but I believe if we shift our thinking from having control to training, we might improve horses and our lives a bit. 

I am *not* saying that we should dispense with tack btw. far from it. I'm no trainer and am certainly no expert, I'm just expressing my opinion. Before I make a fool of myself once again, no one has to take any notice of what I write and I don't believe I 'know best', this is just the way I see things.


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## Amymay (6 May 2011)

I take the view these days that if we TRAIN horses to respond to our requests, that is the better option for safety in general.
		
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Good to hear that you're finally enlightened.

I think the purpose of _equitation_ generally throughout the centuries has been to train horses to respond to our requests.............


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## Tinypony (6 May 2011)

15 years ago I would have agreed with many posters, I would not have been able to imagine how a bit wasn't the best thing to ride with, for many reasons.  Since then I've dealt with bolting, rearing, bucking etc when riding in a rope halter, and found it easier really.  I've also galloped through scrubland in Australia, spooked at roos, ridden through the mountains of Tuscany... all in a rope halter.  I've also done some "dressidge", jumping and generally had a lot of fun.  Strangely enough I felt more "in control" in unforseen circumstances than I did in my younger days riding in various bits.  I think it was because I knew a lot more about how both myself and the horse had been prepared?


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## ironhorse (6 May 2011)

unbalanced said:



			As I understand it:

Western curb bridle ..... can't isolate which side of mouth, dependent on neck rein to turn. 

Not strictly true....Myler and similar western curb bits have 'independent' side action so can work on one side of the mouth, helping out, along with leg and seat aids if the horse is 'heavy' on one side.

Thankfully we are not dependent on the neck rein to turn, and not everyone rides all the time one handed, especially on an 'unfinished' horse!

Similarly there are so many snaffles with different action it's a bit difficult to generalise....
		
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## Jennyharvey (6 May 2011)

unbalanced said:



			As I understand it:

Western curb bridle applies pressure to tongue, bars of mouth, poll, curb groove, can't isolate which side of mouth, dependent on neck rein to turn. Leverage action. 

Double bridle applies pressure to: tongue, bars of mouth, poll, curb groove, corners of mouth, depending on which rein is used. Leverage action on curb bit. 

Snaffle bridle applies pressure to: tongue, bars of mouth, corners of mouth, can be used with a one rein stop in an emergency. No leverage action. 

English hackamore applies pressure to: nose, back of jaw, poll. I've never actually used one but I imagine you can teach a horse to bend perfectly well in it. Uses leverage action.

Combination bridle (like Myler) applies pressure to: tongue, corners of mouth, bars of mouth, back of jaw, nose, poll, you can have a one rein emergency stop and more nose/mouth pressure depending on how you attach the reins to the bit according to your/your horse's preference. Leverage action.

Dr Cook type bridle: hugs whole head so applies pressure to opposite side of head to rein aid and tightens on head when reins are tightened. No leverage action. 

Natural Rope hackamore applies pressure to: nose, opposite side of head. Won't tighten when reins are tightened. No leverage action. 

I'm sure I've missed a few but this should get us started....
		
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Thanks for that.  Although i already know how the bridles work, and most bits too.  I was being a tad sarcastic earlier.  

I can include a sidepull bridle.  Works on nose pressure, no leverage, works on side of nose also to help steering.  Also no tightening.  

Headcollar.  Works same way as sidepul bridle and rope halter.  Nose pressure, no tightening or leverage.  

Scrawbrig bridle.  Nose pressure, tightens behind jaw.  

Light rider bridle.  Similar to above, nose pressure, tightening effect behing jaw.  

To be honest, there isnt much difference between most bitless bridles or halters.  All work on nose pressure.  The dr cooks is most different because its a whole head hug, and tightens around the horse's head.  Im not a big fan of them.  

Why do people think that a bitless bridle give more control than a halter or headcollar?  No one has actually explained that to me, and im not talking about liability on the roads either.  At the end of the day, if your horse knows how to respond to nose pressure, it will be easy to ride bitless, either in a dr cooks or halter.  But if the horse isnt trained well to respond to nose pressure, then the horse wont be easy to ride in anything bitless.


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## Jennyharvey (6 May 2011)

amymay said:



			Good to hear that you're finally enlightened.

I think the purpose of _equitation_ generally throughout the centuries has been to train horses to respond to our requests.............
		
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Exactly.  If we train our horse's to repond to our requests, softly and easily, it will make a far safer horse to ride, regardless of our choice of tack.


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## amandap (6 May 2011)

amymay said:



			Good to hear that you're finally enlightened.

I think the purpose of _equitation_ generally throughout the centuries has been to train horses to respond to our requests.............
		
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Better late than never, as they say. 



Tinypony said:



			15 years ago I would have agreed with many posters, I would not have been able to imagine how a bit wasn't the best thing to ride with, for many reasons.  Since then I've dealt with bolting, rearing, bucking etc when riding in a rope halter, and found it easier really.  I've also galloped through scrubland in Australia, spooked at roos, ridden through the mountains of Tuscany... all in a rope halter.  I've also done some "dressidge", jumping and generally had a lot of fun.  Strangely enough I felt more "in control" in unforseen circumstances than I did in my younger days riding in various bits.  I think it was because I knew a lot more about how both myself and the horse had been prepared?
		
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Wow, what fantastic experiences, you lucky woman. 

I do think bits and tack that hurt, or are used strongly so they do hurt cause more problems and resistance in horses. So someone hauling on the reins to stop the horse may actually be making the horse 'go' faster or push against the discomfort rather than yielding to it.


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## unbalanced (6 May 2011)

Jennyharvey said:



			Why do people think that a bitless bridle give more control than a halter or headcollar?  No one has actually explained that to me, and im not talking about liability on the roads either.  At the end of the day, if your horse knows how to respond to nose pressure, it will be easy to ride bitless, either in a dr cooks or halter.  But if the horse isnt trained well to respond to nose pressure, then the horse wont be easy to ride in anything bitless.
		
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I totally agree. The first week I started riding bitless, I had a terrible time and my horse had a party. (We stayed in an enclosed arena, on our own without any other horses or riders). I hadn't really got the groundwork good enough in the halter (I use the natural hackamore) so she had a great time taking charge and doing exactly what she liked until I got my act together, got off, sorted out the groundwork and got the communication working. Now I can stop in the halter if we are out hacking and someone gallops past us on the bridlepath (yes, did actually need to test that one!). 
Personally I still find I get more refinement from a bit but I like riding in a rope hackamore to get me riding more with my body and I think it's nicer for them on long picnic hacks to go bitless. Just personal preference really. 
I would really love to be able to do dressage bitless one day - I have to teach her to yield to her nose to way she yields to the bit as at the moment all the energy goes out the front door!


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## Natch (6 May 2011)

Sorry to perpetuate the insurance debate, but doesnt third party insurance pay out if you are negligent and someone else gets injured? Say a car driver hits a pedestrian because they were on the phone and were found to be at fault, a third party insurance policy would surely pay out wouldnt it? Im not too well up on this subject so could anyone confirm if this is right or wrong?

Im suprised at some of the contributors to this thread's apparently stubbon refusal to accept that a horse can be under the same amount of control whether they have been trained with or without a bit.


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## AndySpooner (6 May 2011)

I think the real problem is that people are in too much of a rush. Instead of backing in a rope headcollar and bringing on so that the horse responds to the seat. It is easier to stick a bit in a young horses mouth and start pulling on the reins. Most trainers will tell you that the horses are no problem, its the owner/rider. All the way through this thread people have gone on and on about control and bits. They put too much reliance on a bit thinking it is a brake, and steering aid. The reason for strong bits is normally heavy handedness, causing the horse to put up with discomfort and ignore the requests. As far as people competing goes, most are running before they can crawl. If you need a strong bit, its too soon.
Their horses are poorly prepared for competition as are the riders. If they do win anything, being the best of the worse that turned up means nothing.


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## Kallibear (6 May 2011)

Please Amymay, do enlighten us as to how the 'control' exerted with a bit is so different to the 'control' exerted with a headcollar or bitless bridle? Most people are well aware of the difference in _action_ between the two, but fail to see how the 'control' is different. You yourself said it's down to training.....


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## MerrySherryRider (6 May 2011)

Andy Spooner said:



			I think the real problem is that people are in too much of a rush. Instead of backing in a rope headcollar and bringing on so that the horse responds to the seat. It is easier to stick a bit in a young horses mouth and start pulling on the reins. Most trainers will tell you that the horses are no problem, its the owner/rider. All the way through this thread people have gone on and on about control and bits. They put too much reliance on a bit thinking it is a brake, and steering aid.
		
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I would not agree. No one who ever gets on my horses is allowed to use the bit in that way. There are bad riders out there who do so, but surely those riders would abuse a rope halter in the same way. Thin rope halters put a fair amount of pressure on the nose and when a heavy metal clasp for the reins (rope) is added to the equation, there is little relief from the constant pressure from the thin rope.  Incorrectly fitted, the knots can cause discomfort to delicate areas of the horses head.
 In insensitive hands the rope halter can cause as much discomfort as a rider hanging on to a snaffle. Wouldn't let one near my lot . If the horse is so well trained, why not  use a plain headcollar? Or are there gaps in the training that require correction by discomfort ?
  I do find it a little annoying that the inference is that those of us who use bits are lacking in our ability to train obedient, safe horses.


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## Kallibear (6 May 2011)

Horserider, you have trained your horses well to respond correctly to a bit. I have trained my horse well to respond correctly to headcollar. Which of us has less 'control'? Neither probably, it'll be the one with less correct training, if push came to shove. 

My horses are also trained to respond correctly to a bit (although they prefer their headcollars and are more practised with them) and I would imagine you could quickly and easily train your horse to respond correctly to a headcollar, with the same amount of 'control'. 

'Control' is about _training_ your horse to respond correctly to a signal each and every time, not about the signal used.


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## Jennyharvey (6 May 2011)

horserider said:



			I would not agree. No one who ever gets on my horses is allowed to use the bit in that way. There are bad
 riders out there who do so, but surely those riders would abuse a rope halter in the same way. Thin rope halters put a fair amount of pressure on the nose and when a heavy metal clasp for the reins (rope) is added to the equation, there is little relief from the constant pressure from the thin rope.  Incorrectly fitted, the knots can cause discomfort to delicate areas of the horses head.
 In insensitive hands the rope halter can cause as much discomfort as a rider hanging on to a snaffle. Wouldn't let one near my lot . If the horse is so well trained, why not  use a plain headcollar? Or are there gaps in the training that require correction by discomfort ?
  I do find it a little annoying that the inference is that those of us who use bits are lacking in our ability to train obedient, safe horses.
		
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Im afraid to say that you have no idea how a rope halter is used. Its not used to inflict pain, altho it can in heavy hands, but it should be used very lightly, to create a light, responsive horse. 

Most people who use them ride mainly on a long rein, rarely needing to use the reins at all for control. If u have to 'haul' on your horse's head, either in a bit or halter, ur not training very well. 

There should never be a constant pull on the horses head, by any tack, as this teaches the horse to pull back.


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## MerrySherryRider (6 May 2011)

Kallibear said:



			and I would imagine you could quickly and easily train your horse to respond correctly to a headcollar, with the same amount of 'control'. 

'Control' is about _training_ your horse to respond correctly to a signal each and every time, not about the signal used.
		
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Yes, they can be ridden in a headcollar, nice animals that they are. Actually, one can be ridden with no head collar or rope around his neck, obliging boy that he is.

 Even the four year old responds like a pro to seat and voice aids. She is definitely not ridden from her mouth, the bit is for dialogue. 

Its too easy to say that riders who use bits have not trained their horses as well as those who don't. 
 I just don't ride on roads without a bridle.
 I don't need to wear a hat but I do, just  in case my horse were to stumble.


 Responsibilty over ego.


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## ozpoz (6 May 2011)

Kallibear said:



			Please Amymay, do enlighten us as to how the 'control' exerted with a bit is so different to the 'control' exerted with a headcollar or bitless bridle? Most people are well aware of the difference in _action_ between the two, but fail to see how the 'control' is different. You yourself said it's down to training.....
		
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As an example, when my horse competed with his previous rider at 3* level he wore a double bridle for the finesse and precision required in dressage, a hackamore for the jumping phases when his blood was up and a headcollar for between the stables and truck! 
He is a very wise boy, who knows exactly what is going on and when and like most competition horses has a brain and isn't 'conditioned' 
I think you would find out the difference in control very quickly had you ever had the opportunity to take him ( or watch him) across country in the wrong piece of kit!
 
Hopefully Amymay can describe this better than my example - but I thought it might help to illustrate the different requirements for control at different times/situations.


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## AndySpooner (6 May 2011)

Horserider, sounds like you have some cracking horses there.

No one, least of all me is tarring everyone with the same brush, though I will admit to using a broad brush at times, lol.

What is so disappointing, for me at least, is seeing all the threads asking about bitting youngsters, and all the subsequent threads asking about stronger bits for horses that ignore the riders requests to stop or slow down.

All the rest on this thread about roads, insurance etc is just molly, ie people thinking up any excuse to avoid putting a proper foundation on their horse, before hacking out or competing or whatever.

This is all about training, both for the horse and the rider.


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## Golf Girl (6 May 2011)

horserider said:



			I do find it a little annoying that the inference is that those of us who use bits are lacking in our ability to train obedient, safe horses.
		
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I don't think anyone is saying that, are they?


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## Jennyharvey (6 May 2011)

ozpoz said:



			As an example, when my horse competed with his previous rider at 3* level he wore a double bridle for the finesse and precision required in dressage, a hackamore for the jumping phases when his blood was up and a headcollar for between the stables and truck! 
He is a very wise boy, who knows exactly what is going on and when and like most competition horses has a brain and isn't 'conditioned' 
I think you would find out the difference in control very quickly had you ever had the opportunity to take him ( or watch him) across country in the wrong piece of kit!
 
Hopefully Amymay can describe this better than my example - but I thought it might help to illustrate the different requirements for control at different times/situations.
		
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I do understand what you are saying.  Your horse needed this tack for this sort of work.  Anyway, a bitless or halter is not permitted in dressage.  

But i think that a lot of people think that you need a bit to be able to ride with finesse, which of course isnt true.  Surely the whole idea of training our horse's is to train them to be light and responsive, regardless of tack used.  
Ive persoannly seen, and ridden horse's in a halter that you hardly needed to touch the rein and who where so light.  I reckon they would have done extremely well in dressage.  The truth is, you dont need a piece of metal in a horse's mouth to create a soft and responsive horse, that is just a myth.  Even for advanced dressage moves.  Or even eventers out on the cross country course.  

The way i see it, is the horse learns to come off pressure, in whatever tack we use.  If we teach that horse to come off pressure REALLY lightly, this horse will remain light in whatever we do with it.  If however, we teach the horse that he can lean into this pressure in any way, we might find ourselves reaching for another piece of tack, or a stronger bit, in order to 'control' the horse better.  

But at the end of the day, its not even about control.  Are we really in control of an animal that weighs more than 500kg?  No piece of tack will stop a horse if he really wanted to go, so in reality, we are not.  
So instead of saying we are in control, why not think of it as being in charge.  We should be in charge of our horse's movements, of where his head goes, how fast his feet move, and if he decides to bugger off with us, we are in charge of getting him to stop.  We cannot be in control of such a large animal, but we can be in charge of his movements.  Perhaps if more people thought less about controlling their horse, and more of being in a partnership with him, we wouldnt need controlling devices, like big bits etc.

Even instead of saying in charge, we are the leader. We ask for our horse to do what we say, as a lead mare asks for her herd to obey her.  Its not about control, its about leadership.  Making sure the horse knows we are boss, and they should listen to us for guidance.  If we are not good leaders, our horses will learn to take charge.  If we do not show, or teach the horse how to behave or respond, he will figure out his own way to do it, regardless if its desirable for us or not.


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## ozpoz (6 May 2011)

Actually , i was just trying to point out a british headcollar isn't designed for riding in!


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## Jennyharvey (6 May 2011)

ozpoz said:



			Actually , i was just trying to point out a british headcollar isn't designed for riding in!    

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You are right, they're not designed for being ridden in.  But you still can, if done correctly.  The first pony i went bitless with was firstly long reined in a headcollar, then ridden in one.  Once she learned to respond to nose pressure, the rest was simple.

This page has a sidepull on it, and its pretty similar to a headcollar.  
In looks, and actions.  

http://www.bitlessandbarefoot.com/bitless-shop.php


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## Tinypony (6 May 2011)

It's turned into an interesting conversation hasn't it?  I'm sorry to Op though, because we've gone right down a completely different discussion.
To reply to Amanda, yes, I've been very lucky in the things I've been able to experience with horses over the last 12 years or so (blimey, is it that long??).  I had my comfort zones stretched, and my imagination stretched and also my experience, which has come in quite handy.  
I don't think people have meant to infer that those who use bits are lacking in ability to train obedient, safe horses.  It feels a bit vice versa in some cases, where people are steadfastly maintaining that the riders in halters can't train their horses to the same level of safety as those using bits.  But live and let live eh?  
The biggest thing I lhave learnt about being safe has been that using one rein seems to work much better in terms of safety than using two.  Most of us when we're conventionally trained take up on both reins at once when things go tits up, I don't do that any more.
Rope halters would be horrible things to use for riding if you rode with constant pressure (a contact?) on the rein.  It would also make them ineffective because the horse would become desensitised to the feel.  I am of the opinion that might also apply to Dr Cook's bridles and even bits as well.  If you ride in a rope halter there should always be at least a slight loop in your rein, until you take it up to say something, then when the horse responds, you return to neutral.  Used that way they are a light tool.  (I don't use metal clips on mine by the way, I think they spoil "feel", and must be irritating when they swing about under the chin).
I notice that my supposed "neighbour" hasn't come back.  My real neighbour is an intelligent and thinking horsewoman who would read what I actually said, not what she wanted me to have said to start an argument.  If I upset her she'd ring me up to see if I meant to!  She would also agree that:
a) The other horses down my way aren't ridden.
b) That doesn't bother me in the slightest.  We've chatted about that many times and she knows that, even if a horse could be ridden, I think it's perfectly reasonable for the owner to choose not to and to keep it as a field pet if they want.  I know some here would disagree with that, but if a horse is loved and well cared for then that's the most important thing I think.


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## RunToEarth (6 May 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			Horserider, sounds like you have some cracking horses there.

No one, least of all me is tarring everyone with the same brush, though I will admit to using a broad brush at times, lol.

What is so disappointing, for me at least, is seeing all the threads asking about bitting youngsters, and all the subsequent threads asking about stronger bits for horses that ignore the riders requests to stop or slow down.

All the rest on this thread about roads, insurance etc is just molly, ie people thinking up any excuse to avoid putting a proper foundation on their horse, before hacking out or competing or whatever.

This is all about training, both for the horse and the rider.
		
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I don't doubt anyone who knows anything about horses agrees the key is training, however there are a great deal of people who buy horses from previous owners who have shot the mouth to sh** so to speak. 
I have gone back to basics with my coloured, the fact of the matter still remains that when he gets out hunting, he pulls like a train, because he was never trained not to do that.


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## Azmar (6 May 2011)

Takes two to pull!!


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## Tinypony (6 May 2011)

Runtoearth, it's much harder to retrain a horse that's been ridden in a certain way for years than to start from scratch with your own youngster isn't it?  The two of mine that I started were so easy, and so light and responsive because they'd never learnt to lean and pull.


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## DragonSlayer (6 May 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			Horserider, sounds like you have some cracking horses there.

No one, least of all me is tarring everyone with the same brush, though I will admit to using a broad brush at times, lol.

What is so disappointing, for me at least, is seeing all the threads asking about bitting youngsters, and all the subsequent threads asking about stronger bits for horses that ignore the riders requests to stop or slow down.

All the rest on this thread about roads, insurance etc is just molly, ie people thinking up any excuse to avoid putting a proper foundation on their horse, before hacking out or competing or whatever.

This is all about training, both for the horse and the rider.
		
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Why are you slating people for enquring about insurance? I have not slated you and your technique of riding, so please don't call those who are thinking of insurance and using bits as avoiding 'proper training'....what a bloody insult!


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## Kokopelli (6 May 2011)

RunToEarth said:



			I don't doubt anyone who knows anything about horses agrees the key is training, however there are a great deal of people who buy horses from previous owners who have shot the mouth to sh** so to speak. 
I have gone back to basics with my coloured, the fact of the matter still remains that when he gets out hunting, he pulls like a train, because he was never trained not to do that.
		
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Ditto! 
Wouldn't it be nice for everyone to get a clean slate of a horse who you can train from day 1 the correct way. I have only had this pleasure once though and all the other times has had to undo all the krap before I start teaching new things. That's why I hate it when people judge me on what my horse is ridden in.



DragonSlayer said:



			Why are you slating people for enquring about insurance? I have not slated you and your technique of riding, so please don't call those who are thinking of insurance and using bits as avoiding 'proper training'....what a bloody insult!
		
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Can't agree with this more AS some of your posts on this thread have come across as 'holier than thou.'


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## DragonSlayer (6 May 2011)

Kokopelli said:



			Ditto! 
Wouldn't it be nice for everyone to get a clean slate of a horse who you can train from day 1 the correct way. I have only had this pleasure once though and all the other times has had to undo all the krap before I start teaching new things. That's why I hate it when people judge me on what my horse is ridden in.



Can't agree with this more AS some of your posts on this thread have come across as 'holier than thou.'
		
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I think I thought you were referring to me...!


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## MerrySherryRider (6 May 2011)

Tinypony said:



			Runtoearth, it's much harder to retrain a horse that's been ridden in a certain way for years than to start from scratch with your own youngster isn't it?  The two of mine that I started were so easy, and so light and responsive because they'd never learnt to lean and pull.
		
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Most definitely. The show jumper I bought a while back was a lunatic when I first got on her. Needed someone strong to hold her long enough for me to get my bum in the saddle, then she'd run like something possessed all the time bracing herself waiting for the bit to be taken hold of.
 She was mightily surprised when she realised she still had her head. Lovely mare,she had to learn to chill and take responsibility for her own balance before we could enjoy a new way of riding.

Andy Spooner, thanks, though any credit goes to my lot, they are just nice characters.


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## DragonSlayer (6 May 2011)

DragonSlayer said:



			If you call 'holier than thou' trying to be sensible, then that is YOUR problem.
		
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Ack....was you saying Andy is being 'holier than thou'....?


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## Kokopelli (6 May 2011)

DragonSlayer said:



			Ack....was you saying Andy is being 'holier than thou'....?
		
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Opps sorry should have made it clearer, yes Andy is being 'holier than thou.'

Not you DS I've agreed with pretty much everything you've posted.


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## DragonSlayer (6 May 2011)

Kokopelli said:



			Opps sorry should have made it clearer, yes Andy is being 'holier than thou.'

Not you DS I've agreed with pretty much everything you've posted. 

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Haha!

and yes, all I wanted was clarification on the insurance thing, sure, I agree with AS saying training is important....but to then say those who use bits are avoiding a 'proper foundation'....looses him all credibility in what WAS a sensible debate....


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## Amaranta (6 May 2011)

DragonSlayer said:



			Why are you slating people for enquring about insurance? I have not slated you and your technique of riding, so please don't call those who are thinking of insurance and using bits as avoiding 'proper training'....what a bloody insult!
		
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Could not agree with you more!

I really object to both Andy and Jenny's assumption that 'people who ride with a bit are avoiding proper training'.

EVERY good horseman/woman relies on training, whether you use a damn bit or not.  Steering and brakes are NOT from a pull on the bit and anyone who uses that method with bit or without, is not a good horseman!

I also dislike Jenny's assumption that if she wanted to 'show off' she would compete her horse.  This shows a fundamental lack of understanding of the competitive rider's partnership with his/her horse.  You will not be surprised to read that I am a competition rider (BD), when I compete my horse it is NOT to show off what pretty movements she can make, I compete my horse as a test of my TRAINING!  My horse competes at AM in a snaffle, she is also an extremely sensitive little being and if I were to haul on the reins as has been suggested by the ignorant, I would not stand a rats chance in hell of achieving the softness and willingness that is the result of 8 years of training.

The Aussie guy in the video was very impressive, his horse was forward and off his forehand, therefore he could perform the movements properly.   Sorry Jenny, but your video was less than impressive, the horse was not  nearly forward enough to achieve the movements and the canter was four time and on the forehand, if you continue to ride that horse in that way you will damage it.   I realise that your horse is 'green' but you have made the classic mistake of asking for movements before getting the horse going truly forward. 

I apologise if I am offending you but you have already really really offended me with your assumptions.


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## Tinypony (6 May 2011)

I haven't even looked at the videos, but I'll just throw in something from the sidelines.  One of the downsides that I see fairly regularly from the Parelli approach is horses that are too much on the forehand.  Even sometimes watching Linda P riding, I wish she would get the horse balanced better before doing some of the work.  For the Parelli people... I think that there is too much time spent on "Freestyle".


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## Jennyharvey (6 May 2011)

Amaranta said:



			Could not agree with you more!

I really object to both Andy and Jenny's assumption that 'people who ride with a bit are avoiding proper training'.

EVERY good horseman/woman relies on training, whether you use a damn bit or not.  Steering and brakes are NOT from a pull on the bit and anyone who uses that method with bit or without, is not a good horseman!

I also dislike Jenny's assumption that if she wanted to 'show off' she would compete her horse.  This shows a fundamental lack of understanding of the competitive rider's partnership with his/her horse.  You will not be surprised to read that I am a competition rider (BD), when I compete my horse it is NOT to show off what pretty movements she can make, I compete my horse as a test of my TRAINING!  My horse competes at AM in a snaffle, she is also an extremely sensitive little being and if I were to haul on the reins as has been suggested by the ignorant, I would not stand a rats chance in hell of achieving the softness and willingness that is the result of 8 years of training.

The Aussie guy in the video was very impressive, his horse was forward and off his forehand, therefore he could perform the movements properly.   Sorry Jenny, but your video was less than impressive, the horse was not  nearly forward enough to achieve the movements and the canter was four time and on the forehand, if you continue to ride that horse in that way you will damage it.   I realise that your horse is 'green' but you have made the classic mistake of asking for movements before getting the horse going truly forward. 

I apologise if I am offending you but you have already really really offended me with your assumptions.
		
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Dont worry, i am aware that this horse i rode was not moving forward, and yes he is on the forhand.  But he was only backed last year, i am not expecting anything great from him.  Not yet anyway.  I guess if i put a video up of myself, i have to be prepared for the slack i get when someone doesnt like what i do or how i ride.  Dont worry, im not offended.  When you go against the grain, you do get use to it.


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## Tinypony (6 May 2011)

Jenny, oh, hang on, better not hold a conversation here, I'll pm you.


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## myboo (7 May 2011)

Tinypony said:



			I must correct myself, the horses and ponies eat grass, drink from time to time and wander about a bit.  With the right person I suspect all of them could be ridden.  )

QUOTE]



Tinypony said:



			p.s.  I've just had a think.  Down the lane where I keep my 3 nags there are a total of 13 horses and ponies.  Only 3 are ridden (mine).  Two are too old and retired to ride.  That leaves 8 horses and ponies doing nothing, and in fact they don't even do groundwork.
		
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Tinypony I also made the connection that you may be my neighbour but as I was not registerd last week I did not post a reply but I would say that Geri's question in response to your post would apply to me as well
Please could you PM me so I can clarify  

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## Natch (7 May 2011)

Tinypony, you are being stalked!


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## Tinypony (7 May 2011)

To the new members who are supposedly my neighbours - if you are you're having a joke aren't you?  Just have a chat with me as you normally do, I don't bite do I?  And I haven't said anything nasty.  

Incidentally, the "right person" to ride a horse will vary.  It might be someone who wants to, or someone who has the experience to, or someone who is the right weight, or someone who won't push the horse too hard.  Having said that, riding a horse isn't important and wasn't the point of what was being said.  

Pm's???


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## amandap (7 May 2011)

Naturally said:



 Tinypony, you are being stalked! 

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## Tinypony (7 May 2011)

Don't worry, I don't really think my real neighbours would behave like this.  They'd just talk to me, we do a lot of talking...!


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## Hebe (8 May 2011)

Little story, when I was younger I was asked to swop horses in a lesson, I was put on a renowned hothead, beautiful mare, but really really forward.  Anyways I got on and we started to do some work and she went like a doll for me.  But I don't do much, have a soft giving hand and I don't fight.   She would tank off for her other rider quite frequently, she is an excellent rider and teacher, but the mare didn't like to be forcibly ridden, I gave her head was quiet and she gave me her attention.  

It all comes down to trust and respect at the end of the day, bit less or bitted, and we ve all in our time ridden without a bridle haven't we?  

just have respect for each others outlook, we all do different things and can learn off each other, we all want the best for our horse and ponies....ridden or not


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## AndySpooner (8 May 2011)

Here, nice.


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## AndySpooner (8 May 2011)

Should be, Hebe nice, I'll get the hang of this bloody phone, texting thing one day.


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## AndySpooner (8 May 2011)

I'm going to bed now, but what about the concept of trained horses that have not been tamed.

Tamed is being convinced that they won't be hurt by their handler.

Impossible for some I'd say.


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## jenki13 (9 May 2011)

I've been reading this thread for a while but not commented as it was just an interesting read. 

but can you let me know do you guys ride in a traditional English headcollar like this:http://www.robinsonsequestrian.com/horse-clothing/horsewear/standard-nylon-headcollar.html & then attach the rope clips to the side? Biggest surely when you pull on one side the headcollar & consequently the rope clip push into the side of the horses face  pretty uncomfortable I would have thought. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Also it's funny that some of the stuff that parelli does that people pay £££'s for fancy equipment for, I did from pure common sense/thought process. Such as teaching your horse to back from command & touching it all over.. I don't do it with a stick though can't see the point myself just something else to hold. Also I learnt to one rein stop my pony when I was about 8 when he bolted, I knew he couldn't gallop in a circle that got progressively smaller so thats what I made him do. Using the leg aid and pull back on the rein.


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## AndySpooner (9 May 2011)

Hi Jenki13, the headcollar that most are talking about and use is the thin knotted natural hackamore. Some don't like it as they reckon it puts a lot of pressure on the soft part of the nose. However, fitted correctly it doesn't, but then folk want it lower, there is no winning on this forum.

The Parelli equipment is cheap, all you need is the stick, a couple of ropes and a headcollar.


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## AndySpooner (9 May 2011)

The dear stuff is probably the dvd sets. In one lump a couple of hundred quid is a lot, but there is a lot of information on these discs. About ten averaged priced riding lessons works out similar, depending, but I think the discs are better value.

The good think about Parelli is that if you don't like it, don't do it.


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## BMA (9 May 2011)

I agree with the post that stated...level 1 is about hitting your horse around the head with a rope, and smacking in the face with a carrot stick in preparation for level 2.

I also find that the horses are always 'upside down' their headcollar, halter thing is always be tugged on so their head is in the air and their backs hollow.  

I have never dealt with a nice parelli horse - i either find that they are rude beyond belief...heaven forbid they step back when you open a stable door or the fit into the switched off category...you know how some riding school horses look like are here in body but not in mind...i think quite a few look like that as well as looking utterly confused

I'm sure that there are some horses that are very well trained/competed to a high level but Im pretty sure that 99.9% of competition horses/horses that are competing to a decent level do not do parelli.  and the same with legendry riders

Again i agree that a lot of the people that do it are terrified to get on their backs but instead of having an instructor that is calm and patient and hepls them get back on the horse parelli instructors have them poking the horse on the shoulder with a carrot stick and making it walk backwards....fast forward 12 months, the nervous owner still hasn't got on, the horse is switched off and looks confused at the end of a rope

But the DVD sales are going well ££££


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## jenki13 (9 May 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			Hi Jenki13, the headcollar that most are talking about and use is the thin knotted natural hackamore. Some don't like it as they reckon it puts a lot of pressure on the soft part of the nose. However, fitted correctly it doesn't, but then folk want it lower, there is no winning on this forum.

The Parelli equipment is cheap, all you need is the stick, a couple of ropes and a headcollar.
		
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Oh ok, that makes more sense. I've never come across one so I won't comment on the fit, although any tack incorrectly fitted is painful for the horse so... 

I can just remember going to HOYS (i think) & looking at the parelli stand & they wanted a whole shed load of money for their stuff.. But as you said it was probably the DVDs :/ . I'll just stick to reading some good old fashioned books & making up my own mind lol.


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## fburton (9 May 2011)

Jennyharvey said:



			The way i see it, is the horse learns to come off pressure, in whatever tack we use.  If we teach that horse to come off pressure REALLY lightly, this horse will remain light in whatever we do with it.  If however, we teach the horse that he can lean into this pressure in any way, we might find ourselves reaching for another piece of tack, or a stronger bit, in order to 'control' the horse better.  

But at the end of the day, its not even about control.  Are we really in control of an animal that weighs more than 500kg?  No piece of tack will stop a horse if he really wanted to go, so in reality, we are not.  
So instead of saying we are in control, why not think of it as being in charge.  We should be in charge of our horse's movements, of where his head goes, how fast his feet move, and if he decides to bugger off with us, we are in charge of getting him to stop.  We cannot be in control of such a large animal, but we can be in charge of his movements.  Perhaps if more people thought less about controlling their horse, and more of being in a partnership with him, we wouldnt need controlling devices, like big bits etc.
		
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I agree with all of the above, and I like the distinction you make between "in control" and "in charge".




			Even instead of saying in charge, we are the leader. We ask for our horse to do what we say, as a lead mare asks for her herd to obey her.  Its not about control, its about leadership.  Making sure the horse knows we are boss, and they should listen to us for guidance.  If we are not good leaders, our horses will learn to take charge.  If we do not show, or teach the horse how to behave or respond, he will figure out his own way to do it, regardless if its desirable for us or not.
		
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This is where we diverge (perhaps). You say the "lead mare asks for her herd to obey her". That's not really what I see and understand happening in horse herds - but maybe we need to be clear about what you mean by "obey". What orders/requests does the lead mare give that the others obey?


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## AndySpooner (9 May 2011)

BMA, level 1 is nothing like you describe, but there you go.

I know that most people make hash of most training methods, hardly anyone can train a dog so what chance with horses. Lol.


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## team barney (9 May 2011)

jenki13 said:



			but can you let me know do you guys ride in a traditional English headcollar like this:http://www.robinsonsequestrian.com/horse-clothing/horsewear/standard-nylon-headcollar.html & then attach the rope clips to the side? Biggest surely when you pull on one side the headcollar & consequently the rope clip push into the side of the horses face  pretty uncomfortable I would have thought. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
		
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Yes I use a traditional english headcollar similar to the one in your link (reins can be attached either at the sides or at the back).  I have never found it to twist, but I ride mainly with my seat, not my hands.  The lead rope clips when attached at the back are not in any contact with the horse, when attaching at the side I tend to use reins but have used lead-ropes in the past and have never found them to press against my horses face (One is very sensitive and I would know instantly if he was experiencing even the mildest form of discomfort!)

I don't use a knotted rope halter as regardless of fit they still cause discomfort, one of the great myths about them is that they are a kinder option to a conventional headcollar. They are a severe training aid and exert tremendous pressure, not nice at all.


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## Golf Girl (9 May 2011)

BMA said:



			I agree with the post that stated...level 1 is about hitting your horse around the head with a rope, and smacking in the face with a carrot stick in preparation for level 2
		
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Absolute and utter nonsense!


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## cptrayes (9 May 2011)

fburton said:



			This is where we diverge (perhaps). You say the "lead mare asks for her herd to obey her". That's not really what I see and understand happening in horse herds - but maybe we need to be clear about what you mean by "obey". What orders/requests does the lead mare give that the others obey?
		
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I watched a clip of a feral group once. A colt of two years old was creating havoc with the brood mares and babies. The lead mare kicked it and bit it a couple of times to tell it to behave. It didn't. So she got really violent with it and drove it right out of the group, so that it was forced to stand all by itself out in the open. If any predator had come along it would have been the one to get eaten. She kept it out there for a long time, until it was licking and chewing and dropping its head in total subserviance, begging her to let it back in to the safety of the herd. When she did, it behaved itself completely, it obeyed the orders that the lead mare gave it.

I makes me laugh when people say we should never hit horses - that mare beat seven bells out of that youngster to stop it endangering the herd and there are people who really seriously think it's wrong to slap a horse to get its attention focussed where you need it for safety. 


I'm no fan of Parelli though!


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## rossiroo (9 May 2011)

i agree with cptrayers ,my mare was quite tough on her foal and now at 3 years old it  has impecable manners, i put it down to strict parenting, it made my job easier.


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## fburton (9 May 2011)

cptrayes said:



			I watched a clip of a feral group once. A colt of two years old was creating havoc with the brood mares and babies. The lead mare kicked it and bit it a couple of times to tell it to behave. It didn't. So she got really violent with it and drove it right out of the group, so that it was forced to stand all by itself out in the open. If any predator had come along it would have been the one to get eaten. She kept it out there for a long time, until it was licking and chewing and dropping its head in total subserviance, begging her to let it back in to the safety of the herd.
		
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Very interesting - this is said to be the rationale for Join Up. Do you remember where the clip was from? I'd love to see it myself.




			When she did, it behaved itself completely, it obeyed the orders that the lead mare gave it.
		
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What kind of orders did she give it?




			I makes me laugh when people say we should never hit horses - that mare beat seven bells out of that youngster to stop it endangering the herd and there are people who really seriously think it's wrong to slap a horse to get its attention focussed where you need it for safety.
		
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Yes, but that doesn't mean that we _have_ to use violent and/or aggressive methods if there are alternatives that work just as well or better - as there almost always are. Horses do all kinds of things to each other which we wouldn't dream of doing ourselves - because we aren't horses. The argument that it's fine for _us_ to do these things simply because _horses_ do is a bit spurious, in my opinion.


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## cptrayes (9 May 2011)

She ordered it not to bite and kick people by threatening it, biting it or kicking it when it did. When it did not obey her, she banished it, which is a death sentence to a herd preyed-upon animal. 

No-one said we "have" to use violent methods, but I laugh myself silly at the people who believe that it is never right to hit a horse. The have obviously never had to handle a highly strung horse who is, for example, swinging its head about and risking knocking you out because it is so excited by something going on around it. The safest thing to do in that situation is to get the attention focussed on the handler, and fast, and a slap is very often the best, safest and fastest way to achieve that. I'm not suggesting that it should be routine but it's completely ridiculous, in my opinion, to declare, as some people do, that it is never right to hit a horse.

The TV program on the feral herd was donkey's years ago. It was a David Attenborough, that's all I remember.


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## fburton (9 May 2011)

cptrayes said:



			She ordered it not to bite and kick people by threatening it, biting it or kicking it when it did. When it did not obey her, she banished it, which is a death sentence to a herd preyed-upon animal.
		
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Oh I see - I thought you meant she ordered it to do stuff _after_ the banishment was lifted. My misunderstanding, sorry.




			No-one said we "have" to use violent methods, but I laugh myself silly at the people who believe that it is never right to hit a horse. The have obviously never had to handle a highly strung horse who is, for example, swinging its head about and risking knocking you out because it is so excited by something going on around it. The safest thing to do in that situation is to get the attention focussed on the handler, and fast, and a slap is very often the best, safest and fastest way to achieve that. I'm not suggesting that it should be routine but it's completely ridiculous, in my opinion, to declare, as some people do, that it is never right to hit a horse.
		
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Never say never - especially where a person's safety is concerned - agreed. That said, it is not unusual to see people hitting horses in situations where another approach - such as prevention! - would be more effective (as well as fairer), and in ways that a liable to do more harm than good, for example when the timing is so poor the horse doesn't know what it is being punished for. 




			The TV program on the feral herd was donkey's years ago. It was a David Attenborough, that's all I remember.
		
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Thanks! Although I have a large collection of Attenborough documentaries on DVD, all of which I watched at the time of broadcast, I don't recall the segment you described. However, I will take another look at the more likely ones.


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## cptrayes (9 May 2011)

I'm trying to remember if I was even in this house. I think I was, so it would have been less than 20 years ago, but I think probably at least 10 and more like 15. Have fun trying to find it - let us know if you succeed, it was very interesting.


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## PaddyMonty (9 May 2011)

It seems to me these discussions pro/anti natural/traditional are all fairly pointless.
At the end of the day I haven't come across a training method that doesn't use pressure.  The difference generally lies in how the pressure is applied be it physical, mental or a combination of both.
In all methods the stars will shine. There are beautifully trained horses from both traditional and NH/PNH menthods.
However, I would suggest that the trainers of these horses would have acheived the same results no matter what method they used. 
The key to training any animal is to be able to 'read it', understand why it does xyz and pick up on the tiny clues.
Where PNH is concerned it is no less fluffy or brutal than any other method and still has the key to success in being able to read the horse. How the method is implemented by the trainer and the level of pressure used will ultimately be determined by their natural ability with horses.
Generally its not the methods which fails, its the people that use them.
Good horsemanship is good hormanship what ever label is applied.
What I have noticed is the less someone can read/feel a horse the more they are likely to over or under apply the appropriate pressure leading to confused/problem horses.


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## amandap (9 May 2011)

Ha ha! I'm keeping well out of this one.  

Natural Horsemanship is a dirty 'word' to many, many people however those using it may understand, interpret or apply it. It's either wet, ineffective and fluffy, carried out by idiots who haven't got a grain of common sense or it's a cruel, unfair, con used by deluded twits..   No wonder I'm a foolish numpty.  We are how we are treated and or viewed, just like horses.


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## unbalanced (9 May 2011)

BMA said:



			I have never dealt with a nice parelli horse - i either find that they are rude beyond belief...heaven forbid they step back when you open a stable door or the fit into the switched off category...you know how some riding school horses look like are here in body but not in mind...i think quite a few look like that as well as looking utterly confused

I'm sure that there are some horses that are very well trained/competed to a high level but I&#8217;m pretty sure that 99.9% of competition horses/horses that are competing to a decent level do not do parelli.  and the same with legendry riders
		
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Oh, you should meet my horse, she has lovely manners and is very bright and friendly.

High level Parelli people - I don't really follow high level equestrian sport (or any other sport for that matter) but David and Karen O'Conner and Lauren Barwick spring to mind. A lot of the higher level Parelli people compete in Western disciplines - Pat and his son Caton do very well in cutting and reined cow horse apparently but not many people over her follow that (I don't, although I'd love to have a go ).


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## AndySpooner (9 May 2011)

JunoXV, this is an excellent post.

The problem with all these discussions is that they quickly polarize, particularly when Parelli is added to the mix.


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## Natch (10 May 2011)

The thing about nonviolence; yep totally agree horses use it, but then we come back to do we want our horse to do things for us because they respect and are not afraid, or simply because they know if they don't punishment will follow? The colt in cptrays' example would surely be a prime example of category b. A friend of mine's herd leader is a wonderful example of the other type, he has his herd's full respect and they go wherever he does but keep a respectful distance apart from his pair bond, and if one pushes his luck its put right by a flick of an ear or at most a look. The times he has ever used aggresion can be counted on one hand, and relate to protection of a youngster.


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## AndySpooner (10 May 2011)

The example Cptrayes gives is a good example of a herd leader using dominance as a tool to educate a young colt. This behaviour is well documented amongst mustang groups.
However, too many people confuse leadership and dominance in horse training, and become a one trick wonder, using dominance.
A more balanced approach to training using different strategies to engage with different horses with different issues leads to more success.

I am convinced that a lot of the regular problems highlighted on these threads are easily solved, without the need for strong bits, additional quick fix tack items, the constant need to demonstrate whose boss.

It is the negativity of many owners and trainers that perpetuate these problems unfortunately.


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## eahotson (10 May 2011)

cptrayes said:



			She ordered it not to bite and kick people by threatening it, biting it or kicking it when it did. When it did not obey her, she banished it, which is a death sentence to a herd preyed-upon animal. 

No-one said we "have" to use violent methods, but I laugh myself silly at the people who believe that it is never right to hit a horse. The have obviously never had to handle a highly strung horse who is, for example, swinging its head about and risking knocking you out because it is so excited by something going on around it. The safest thing to do in that situation is to get the attention focussed on the handler, and fast, and a slap is very often the best, safest and fastest way to achieve that. I'm not suggesting that it should be routine but it's completely ridiculous, in my opinion, to declare, as some people do, that it is never right to hit a horse.

The TV program on the feral herd was donkey's years ago. It was a David Attenborough, that's all I remember.
		
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My Highland did just that with a very stroppy young gelding once.Fascinating to watch and they were best of friends after.


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## eahotson (10 May 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			The example Cptrayes gives is a good example of a herd leader using dominance as a tool to educate a young colt. This behaviour is well documented amongst mustang groups.
However, too many people confuse leadership and dominance in horse training, and become a one trick wonder, using dominance.
A more balanced approach to training using different strategies to engage with different horses with different issues leads to more success.

I am convinced that a lot of the regular problems highlighted on these threads are easily solved, without the need for strong bits, additional quick fix tack items, the constant need to demonstrate whose boss.

It is the negativity of many owners and trainers that perpetuate these problems unfortunately.
		
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My very traditional, done the Badminton thing etc.instructor would agree with an awful lot of that I think Andy.


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## fburton (10 May 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			The example Cptrayes gives is a good example of a herd leader using dominance as a tool to educate a young colt.
		
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Using aggression and threats of aggression, certainly. Dominance can also be viewed as the relationship that results from this process. In relation to the clip that Cptrayes clip, do we know that the horse in question was actually herd leader or simply the most dominant? The common assumption is that they are (must be) one and the same, whereas we know that isn't true. As humans, we naturally assume that the most dominant horse is the herd leader, and vice versa. Discarding these in-built preconceptions is a challenge!




			This behaviour is well documented amongst mustang groups.
		
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I think this is right, though it's worth bearing in mind that feral horses don't always show exactly the same sets of behaviours, the differences apparently being related to habitat ecology. This just goes to show how adaptable horses are. I think it also shows that, while all horses have the _potential_ to express aggressive and threatening behaviours, it isn't a given - rather, it depends on the situation they find themselves in. I believe horses are generally peace-loving and will choose the option of less hassle as long as they are able to satisfy their basic needs. If we can work with that tendency and avoid unnecessary conflict, so much the better.




			However, too many people confuse leadership and dominance in horse training, and become a one trick wonder, using dominance.
		
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I agree - it's probably the easier option (certainly easier to understand and relate to from our human point of view).




			A more balanced approach to training using different strategies to engage with different horses with different issues leads to more success.
		
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Again, I agree, but would go further to say that it is possible to train and work with horses very effectively without having to engage/create dominance at all. It isn't necessary to use actively aggressive threats to move horses around, just the right amount of pressure. Unwanted behaviour can (and should) be punished, but that doesn't _have_ to be done in the manner of a dominant horse.

I'm not sure if Natural Horsemanship demands that one does, as a matter of principle. Perhaps you could throw some light on that?


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## amandap (10 May 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			JunoXV, this is an excellent post.
		
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I agree. 
I'm keeping out of the perceived herd dynamic in horses and it's relevance, or not, to us. Done it a few times. 
I'm more interested in horses behaviour and responses than how herds work these days. I mean interested in the sense of relevance to me as a horse owner.
Of course I'm extremely interested in everything about horses.


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## AndySpooner (10 May 2011)

It is the appropriate application of pressure, dominance or energy, and the ability to release, or alter your strategy in the nano second that counts.


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## amandap (10 May 2011)

fburton said:



			Again, I agree, but would go further to say that it is possible to train and work with horses very effectively without having to engage/create dominance at all. It isn't necessary to use actively aggressive threats to move horses around, just the right amount of pressure. Unwanted behaviour can (and should) be punished, but that doesn't _have_ to be done in the manner of a dominant horse.
		
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With my new concept of dominance I agree. 
_"just the right amount of pressure._ " 
I would aslo go further on this point and agree with Andy that learning to see the smallest response from the horse and then releasing that pressure is the really important thing. I also believe learning to see and release early is a big way to stop that increase in pressure and frustration that we all fall into. This is my opinion of course.


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## fburton (10 May 2011)

amandap said:



			I'm keeping out of the perceived herd dynamic in horses and it's relevance, or not, to us. Done it a few times. 
I'm more interested in horses behaviour and responses than how herds work these days. I mean interested in the sense of relevance to me as a horse owner.
		
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Yes, I too believe the significance of herd dynamics is overplayed and unnecessarily complicating. The dyed-in-the-wool NHers will probably pounce on me for that, but I think one can focus on one-on-one behaviour of horses relating to us as humans (rather than other horses) and still be within the definition of NH. Of course, others would argue it is just good horsemanship, and I would be inclined to agree!


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## fburton (10 May 2011)

fburton said:



			Yes, I too believe the significance of herd dynamics is overplayed and unnecessarily complicating.
		
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Re-reading what Amandap wrote, I realize I may well have misrepresented her, for which I apologize.  I should have written something more like:

"Yes, I agree. I personally believe the significance of herd dynamics is overplayed and unnecessarily complicating."


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## Golf Girl (10 May 2011)

fburton said:



			I personally believe the significance of herd dynamics is overplayed and unnecessarily complicating."
		
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On the contrary - an understanding of herd dynamics is essential in order to understand why horses behave the way they do (which is probably the most important bit!)


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## amandap (10 May 2011)

That depends fburton.  I think I probably do agree with you and especially because herd dynamics are not universally agreed upon in my understanding. No need to apologise but thank you for seeing the possible difference in emphasis.
You have prompted me to write my thinking down to get it clear in my head, possibly for a short article.  Be very scared.


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## Tinypony (10 May 2011)

I agree with fburton.  It may be relevant to have some understanding of herd dynamics (although what is the one correct interpretation of that?), but I think that in some training it is overplayed and unecessarily complicating.  
Just a sort of "for example" - Parelli teaches one version of herd dynamics, which is slightly at odds with what Monty teaches, which again doesn't quite agree with Mark Rashid, who is at variance with Ben Hart... so someone must have some of it wrong... however they all manage to train horses quite effectively.


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## amandap (10 May 2011)

Golf Girl said:



			On the contrary - an understanding of herd dynamics is essential in order to understand why horses behave the way they do (which is probably the most important bit!) 

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Do we need to fully understand herd dynamics to understand behaviour and responses though? We can observe horses and get a good feel for their feelings about other horses, humans and events etc. without knowing precisely how they interact with each other in a horse only herd surely. 

Learning how to move and control a horse is partly down to us knowing how they respond to stimuli which we can and must learn from observing them interacting but what more can the 'natural' herd structure and dynamic give us in practice? I don't want to kick them and if I did why shouldn't it be ok for them to feel the same and kick me? Which is where the horse herd behaviour ultimately goes surely.

Mta. Strangely I read and see non 'NH' people advising to and kick back and hit much more commonly than those who practice some form of 'NH'. None of us thinks a horse should bite or kick us though. It has always puzzled me where this thinking actually comes from.


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## fburton (10 May 2011)

Golf Girl said:



			On the contrary - an understanding of herd dynamics is essential in order to understand why horses behave the way they do (which is probably the most important bit!) 

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It's useful, but to my mind the most important bit is what some call "learning theory". Of course it's also essential to know what _motivates_ horses (as opposed to dogs or people, say) and to be aware that the way horses perceive the world around them is very different from the way we do, so as to be able to apply learning theory sensibly. Reading body language - tuning in to very subtle cues - is also a crucially important skill for anyone wanting to be successful with horses. However, understanding herd dynamics - which essentially boils down to "dominance hierarchy" for a lot of folk, I'm sad to say - comes fairly low on my list of priorities.



Tinypony said:



			Just a sort of "for example" - Parelli teaches one version of herd dynamics, which is slightly at odds with what Monty teaches, which again doesn't quite agree with Mark Rashid, who is at variance with Ben Hart... so someone must have some of it wrong... however they all manage to train horses quite effectively.
		
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That's quite telling, isn't it? I would venture to suggest that it is their ability to apply learning theory, whether they are consciously aware they are using it or not (Ben Hart certainly is), which really accounts for their success in training.


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## fburton (10 May 2011)

amandap said:



			You have prompted me to write my thinking down to get it clear in my head, possibly for a short article.  Be very scared. 

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Oooerr - got me worried now!   (Seriously though, i'd love to read it if/when you do.)


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## cptrayes (10 May 2011)

fburton said:



			I think it also shows that, while all horses have the _potential_ to express aggressive and threatening behaviours, it isn't a given - rather, it depends on the situation they find themselves in. I believe horses are generally peace-loving and will choose the option of less hassle as long as they are able to satisfy their basic needs. If we can work with that tendency and avoid unnecessary conflict, so much the better.
		
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I don't understand how anyone who has ever kept more than two horses together in an area where they have plenty of freedom, food, shelter and water (ie their basic needs are all met) and watched them for any length of time can believe that horses avoid being aggressive.

Mine, in ten acres of knee high grass, will walk over to each other, say "what plant have you got there that I might like better than what I've got" and if the other will not give it up, will bite or kick or at least threaten to do so. 

I've been watching horses do this for 30 years. Aggression, unless your turnout is single horse paddocks only (and why would there be so many of those these days if horses were sweetness and light to each other all the time???) is part and parcel of daily horse life. 

Young horses will deliberately cause a fracas to have some fun. My Shetland will stand directly behind one of the others, touching his hocks. Then turn his head and bite the other's hamstrings. He means to make them run, and he stands where they can get no power into the kick that he knows full well is coming his way.

My big boys bite each others lips to get a twitch on all the time. Several times a year I will find kick marks on the front legs.

That's what horses do!

I often used to kick my Shetland, it's easier than leaning down to thump him when he is trying to get into the feed shed and kill himself with a bellyfull of unsoaked sugar beet. Strangely, he never seems to think that means that it's OK to kick me, but he does beg like a dog with one paw when he wants me to scratch his back for him   I hear other people calling them "Shitlands" because they behave so dominantly and badly. Mine is more like a poodle, I wonder why?


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## fburton (10 May 2011)

cptrayes said:



			I don't understand how anyone who has ever kept more than two horses together in an area where they have plenty of freedom, food, shelter and water (ie their basic needs are all met) and watched them for any length of time can believe that horses avoid being aggressive.
		
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In some domestic herds I have observed, aggressive behaviour really amounted to a _tiny_ part of all interactions. In the groups where aggression was more obvious, it was because there were one or more bullies. I guess it depends on the individual horses and the setup (amount of space, opportunities for competition). Of course aggression is part of what horses are. However, I would suggest that it's not a very important part - or at least, need not be. If horses are spending a significant amount of time and effort being nasty to each other, I would begin to thing something was wrong - and I wouldn't count play fighting as true aggression.




			I often used to kick my Shetland, it's easier than leaning down to thump him when he is trying to get into the feed shed and kill himself with a bellyfull of unsoaked sugar beet. Strangely, he never seems to think that means that it's OK to kick me, but he does beg like a dog with one paw when he wants me to scratch his back for him   I hear other people calling them "Shitlands" because they behave so dominantly and badly. Mine is more like a poodle, I wonder why?
		
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Because he has learned to be like that?


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## Ranyhyn (10 May 2011)

alligator40 said:



			Pat Pepperoni's
		
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Just peed myself.


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## AndySpooner (10 May 2011)

I don't doubt that aggression does play some part in the interaction of domestic horses kept on  limited areas, I expect that other emotions such as boredom also influence their interaction with one another in a very contrived existence .


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## cptrayes (10 May 2011)

fburton said:



			I often used to kick my Shetland, it's easier than leaning down to thump him when he is trying to get into the feed shed and kill himself with a bellyfull of unsoaked sugar beet. Strangely, he never seems to think that means that it's OK to kick me, but he does beg like a dog with one paw when he wants me to scratch his back for him I hear other people calling them "Shitlands" because they behave so dominantly and badly. Mine is more like a poodle, I wonder why? 

Because he has learned to be like that?
		
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Precisely. I got him as a little handled two year old, and I treated him in the way that his mother would have treated him whenever he offered behaviour that was unacceptable around humans, and I have a Shetland that people who HATE Shetlands swoon all over when they visit me and who is safe alone with the smallest child. He tried to bite me once. I smacked his nose so quick and so hard he's never forgotten it. He has never offered to bite anyone since. Is it kinder to have told him off with my voice, waited for him to do it again and told him off again, and so on until he finally, (if he ever did, being a Shetland with all the strong will that goes with the package), got the message that it is not OK to bite people? Meanwhile, there will be a whole bunch of people on this forum thinking or saying that it is cruel and unnecessary to hit horses in training them, whose horses are taking a chunk out of their backsides and rifling their pockets for their clicker treat at every opportunity. 

Horses speak the language of a quick physical reprimand and then immediate reward for desired behaviour. If its good enough for them its good enough for me.


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## cptrayes (10 May 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			I don't doubt that aggression does play some part in the interaction of domestic horses kept on  limited areas, I expect that other emotions such as boredom also influence their interaction with one another in a very contrived existence .
		
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Andy do you not think it is normal for horses to be aggressive at all?

Have you never seen feral stallions fight?

Have you never seen how a feral mother of a yearling tells it that it cannot suckle from her any more because she has a new foal to feed?

I can't really see how my three and a bit boys free to roam in twelve acres of hill meadow could constitute being bored by a contrived existence, really. They race because it is natural to them to race (the cows and sheep on land around me will do it too from time to time and lambs do it constantly). They kick out at each other when they are racing because they want to win. They want to win, of course, because in the wild the one at the back is the one who is going to get eaten. So how much more natural can it get than to disable your rival so the lion eats him and not you??


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## team barney (10 May 2011)

Agression is very minimal in any stable herd.  Most domestic horses however are subjected to constantly changing herd environments and as a consequence cannot establish a harmonious co-existence.  If a herd is steady and stable infighting is a rare occurrence, the members establish relationships within their herd dynamic and accept their roles. 
If the herd is party to one or more challenging, overly aggressive members it will of course suffer a certain degree of friction (usually surround those particular horses) as they will undoubtably challenge for leadership despite their temperament's utter unsuitability.


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## cptrayes (10 May 2011)

team barney said:



			Agression is very minimal in any stable herd.
		
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But this just isn't true in the wild, is it? Every year a colt will get old enough to think it can challenge the stallion and there will be at least one violent fight, probably at least one for the year of birth of a group of colts from the bachelor herd. 

Every year each mare will drive off last year's foal so this year's can have her milk and care. Sometimes that will be violent.

Every foal will get playful and be put in its place by either its mother or another mare with threats of bites and kicks, which will be real bites and kicks if it does not pack it in.

Every time food is short, the more dominant horses will drive the lower ones off the best bits of food by threatening, and if they are more equal in rank, actually kicking and biting. The same will happen if water is short. 

Life in a normal horse herd is full of threats of violence, and sometimes actual violence, its how horses get what they want. They can't sit down and negotiate over a bottle of Suavignon Blanc, can they ?


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## fburton (10 May 2011)

cptrayes said:



			Precisely. I got him as a little handled two year old, and I treated him in the way that his mother would have treated him whenever he offered behaviour that was unacceptable around humans, and I have a Shetland that people who HATE Shetlands swoon all over when they visit me and who is safe alone with the smallest child. He tried to bite me once. I smacked his nose so quick and so hard he's never forgotten it. He has never offered to bite anyone since. Is it kinder to have told him off with my voice, waited for him to do it again and told him off again, and so on until he finally, (if he ever did, being a Shetland with all the strong will that goes with the package), got the message that it is not OK to bite people?
		
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No, I would say that was very effective punishment. I certainly wouldn't condemn you for what you did.




			Meanwhile, there will be a whole bunch of people on this forum thinking or saying that it is cruel and unnecessary to hit horses in training them,
		
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I would say it is largely unnecessary, and can be cruel if overdone or done unfairly. Wouldn't rule it out as an option though.




			whose horses are taking a chunk out of their backsides and rifling their pockets for their clicker treat at every opportunity.
		
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I'm not a clicker trainer myself but have put the technique to good use on several occasions. However, I think your comment betrays a misunderstanding of how it works when done properly (i.e. horse taught, very easily, not to mug for treats). 




			Horses speak the language of a quick physical reprimand and then immediate reward for desired behaviour. If its good enough for them its good enough for me.
		
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Yet one doesn't need to reprimand very often, surely?


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## fburton (10 May 2011)

cptrayes said:



			But this just isn't true in the wild, is it?
		
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Depends which "wild" herd one studies. One would be forgiven for thinking that aggression is a _major_ part of herd life if National Geographic documentaries were your main source of information. Naturally, they focus on the "interesting" bits of behaviour. However, if you look at the published studies - for example Stephanie Tyler's of New Forest ponies, or Joel Berger's of Great Basin horses, or Lucy Rees' of Pottoka ponies - you will find plenty of evidence to show that, at least in some herds, aggression plays a very minor role indeed in herd life _when one looks at the whole picture_.




			Every year a colt will get old enough to think it can challenge the stallion and there will be at least one violent fight, probably at least one for the year of birth of a group of colts from the bachelor herd.
		
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I accept there is considerable aggression associated with challenges over mare 'ownership'. However, I would question the applicability to our interactions with horses.




			Every year each mare will drive off last year's foal so this year's can have her milk and care. Sometimes that will be violent.
		
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Ditto this.




			Every foal will get playful and be put in its place by either its mother or another mare with threats of bites and kicks, which will be real bites and kicks if it does not pack it in.
		
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This is much more relevant in that youngsters may try this kind of behaviour on with humans. They need to be taught it is not acceptable behaviour. We don't need to resort to violence to do this though.




			Every time food is short, the more dominant horses will drive the lower ones off the best bits of food by threatening, and if they are more equal in rank, actually kicking and biting. The same will happen if water is short.
		
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Ditto above. 




			Life in a normal horse herd is full of threats of violence, and sometimes actual violence, its how horses get what they want. They can't sit down and negotiate over a bottle of Suavignon Blanc, can they ?
		
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I think "full of" is a bit of an exaggeration to say the least!

But, you know, this argument about herd dynamics is all rather academic given that we already know we don't need to use violence or threats of violence to get what we want with horses. Some people do, and are quite successful in spite of it, but that _doesn't_ mean it is mandatory!


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## AndySpooner (10 May 2011)

Of course there is violence and aggression within a herd environment. Whatever horses do between themselves is fine, the question is where and how do we best fit in.

It's like the riding without a bit section of this thread. People got wound up about that and missed my point which was, yes you can ride in a bit, but surely you should be able to control your horse in walk trot and canter without one first.

If you can't either you cannot ride or your horse is not trained well enough to be ridden in a bit.


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## amandap (10 May 2011)

fburton said:



			However, if you look at the published studies - for example Stephanie Tyler's of New Forest ponies, or Joel Berger's of Great Basin horses, or Lucy Rees' of Pottoka ponies - you will find plenty of evidence to show that, at least in some herds, aggression plays a very minor role indeed in herd life _when one looks at the whole picture_.
		
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Oh no I am going to get into this.  I'm currently (still, keep getting distracted by other books.) reading Joel Berger's study of horses of the Great Basin and am getting a very different picture than I got from reading the Pottoka article.  Berger's study isn't focussed on individual interaction and dynamic in the herd though so that may well be why. The stallion influence on the herd seems much more evident and important than I imagined from reading other stuff, the rest of herd interaction seems almost incidental and based on pure survival rather than any other social process. I've a lot more to read and digest though so may be very off the mark here. 

Incidentally, Berger's book is really interesting and well written imo. It is very expensive so order it from a library if anyone wants to read it. So far it's the most convincing study book on horses I've read.


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## fburton (10 May 2011)

amandap said:



			Oh no I am going to get into this.  I'm currently (still, keep getting distracted by other books.) reading Joel Berger's study of horses of the Great Basin and am getting a very different picture than I got from reading the Pottoka article.  Berger's study isn't focussed on individual interaction and dynamic in the herd though so that may well be why. The stallion influence on the herd seems much more evident and important than I imagined from reading other stuff, the rest of herd interaction seems almost incidental and based on pure survival rather than any other social process. I've a lot more to read and digest though so may be very off the mark here. 

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No, you're quite right - they are different, highlighting the importance of environmental factors in determining behaviour. Unless I have misremembered (I will check again tonight), Berger does include figures for time budgets for various classes of behaviour which shows that the frequency of aggression was low.


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## cptrayes (10 May 2011)

fburton said:



			I'm not a clicker trainer myself but have put the technique to good use on several occasions. However, I think your comment betrays a misunderstanding of how it works when done properly (i.e. horse taught, very easily, not to mug for treats).
		
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It's not my misunderstanding. It's the people who I see whose horses are constantly at them for treats who have misunderstood. I don't need a clicker, I just use a voice full of praise



fburton said:



			Yet one doesn't need to reprimand very often, surely?
		
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No, that's the point. Done properly at the right time it is VERY quick to teach the horse  he has overstepped the boundaries, and quite often never needs a repeat. I wold generally only use it when the response has to be VERY quick to that the horse can connect his behaviour directly with the result, like when my tiddler bit me. Or when there is danger in the horse's behaviour and for safety it MUST get its attention focussed back on its handler.


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## cptrayes (10 May 2011)

fburton said:



			This is much more relevant in that youngsters may try this kind of behaviour on with humans. They need to be taught it is not acceptable behaviour. We don't need to resort to violence to do this though.
		
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I'm genuinely interested. You have a two year old whose mouth is in mid-flight to sink his teeth into part of your clothing or anatomy. What do you do that will teach him that this behaviour is incorrect, which will work in one lesson and end the problem for good?


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## cptrayes (10 May 2011)

fburton said:



			Depends which "wild" herd one studies. One would be forgiven for thinking that aggression is a _major_ part of herd life if National Geographic documentaries were your main source of information.
		
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My main source of information is to look out of my lounge window at the interactions between my own horses, and to see my friends and neighbours horses as I pass by or visit.

Tonight I had a wild playfight going on with a nine year old, eight year old and five year old, plus tiny pony, hurtling up and down the field, kicking out when someone got too close, biting when they could get a purchase, and although these are play bites they draw blood from time to time. This often happpens as dusk falls in the spring. From what I see with my own eyes, casual violence is a normal part of horse life. 

I am not advocating routine physical abuse of horses, but I am fed up with the minority but growing group who think it is wrong to ever hit a horse.


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## fburton (11 May 2011)

cptrayes said:



			It's not my misunderstanding. It's the people who I see whose horses are constantly at them for treats who have misunderstood.
		
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Then I respectfully submit you are not seeing the clicker trainers who know what they are doing; rather, you are seeing people who feed randomly and inadvertently reward nuisance behaviour. 




			I don't need a clicker, I just use a voice full of praise
		
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Sometimes the extra motivation provided by a food reward makes all the difference.




			No, that's the point. Done properly at the right time it is VERY quick to teach the horse  he has overstepped the boundaries, and quite often never needs a repeat. I wold generally only use it when the response has to be VERY quick to that the horse can connect his behaviour directly with the result, like when my tiddler bit me. Or when there is danger in the horse's behaviour and for safety it MUST get its attention focussed back on its handler.
		
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I have no problem with that at all. Unfortunately, one sees physical reprimands being used inappropriately, ineffectively and/or with unwelcome knock-on effects all too often.



cptrayes said:



			I'm genuinely interested. You have a two year old whose mouth is in mid-flight to sink his teeth into part of your clothing or anatomy. What do you do that will teach him that this behaviour is incorrect, which will work in one lesson and end the problem for good?
		
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Mouthiness in colts is a perennial problem. My response would depend on whether the biting is at the nibbling/nipping stage or whether it has progressed to lunge-biting (sometimes due to the horse being smacked on the mouth/face and thus learning to get his head in and away again quickly so as to avoid the smack). Obviously it's best to nip any mouthiness in the bud as soon as it appears, at the foal stage if possible.

With nibbling/nipping, I make it uncomfortable enough for the horse (but without hurting or scaring him) that he learns that it's not worth the effort and stops. I have a favourite technique based on sticking my finger into the roof of the horse's mouth the instant he starts to nibble and holding it there for 2-3 seconds while he tries to spit it out which I have found to be 100% effective in dozens of horses now. Although I have never been hurt doing this, it may be criticized on the grounds of safety. It also requires a certain deftness and being ready to intercept any oral approaches. Anyway, it's what _I_ do (which is what you asked for); I don't expect others to do it. It typically works in 2 or 3 short lessons _and_ has the advantage that there is no risk at all of creating bad feeling towards the handler, because the horse thinks the discomfort is self-inflicted. The same cannot be said for hitting/slapping. 

With lunge-biting, which sounds more like what you have, I would allow the horse to run into a hard bit of anatomy - an elbow, knee or even a fist (though I prefer the first two) - so that he clunks himself hard enough to punish the attempt to bite. As above, the important thing (for me) is to avoid it appearing to the horse that I have _responded_ personally to his action; I don't particularly wish to be seen as an aggressor. Using the horse's own movement as part of the punisher ensures optimal timing, i.e. it occurs exactly the same time as the bite attempt. The disadvantage of this method is that it demands alertness and anticipation. On the other hand, it only needs to be done 2 or 3 times (sometimes just once) to produce a lasting change in behaviour.

If you're in a position to reward behaviours incompatible with biting, that is definitely worth doing.



cptrayes said:



			I am not advocating routine physical abuse of horses, but I am fed up with the minority but growing group who think it is wrong to ever hit a horse.
		
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As you will have gathered by now, I am not in that group. However, it's something I haven't done for many years now. I would certainly feel that I had failed if I found myself resorting to hitting in anger, as I believe anger has no place in horsemanship.


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## fburton (11 May 2011)

amandap said:



			Berger's study isn't focussed on individual interaction and dynamic in the herd though so that may well be why. The stallion influence on the herd seems much more evident and important than I imagined from reading other stuff, the rest of herd interaction seems almost incidental and based on pure survival rather than any other social process.
		
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I looked at Berger's "Wild Horses of the Great Basin" last night and it has a lot to say about both aggressive behaviour _and_ dominance. I would like to quote from it liberally but I'm not sure that is appropriate here. However, the gist of it is that stallions are  pretty aggressive towards each other, occasionally inflicting dreadful injuries on rivals, but even then "This does not imply that aggression was rampant; more than 98% of a stallion's annual time budget was spent in non-aggressive activities. As in zebras [...], bands of horses often graze adjacently without aggression or perceptible concern regarding others." (Here Berger is talking about interband encounters.)

Regarding the mares: "Classically, it has been thought that through aggressiveness individuals may achieve high rank and access to limited food resources [...]. This did not seem to be the case among Granite Range females. Mares were not often aggressive to those with who they were familiar (e.g. band mates of either sex). Intraband variation in aggression was considerable, but even in early spring when food was most limited and new vegetative growth had not begun, few feeding displacements occurred. The most food-related supplantations observed in an hour was nine, but this was exceptional. On the average less than one individual per three hours of observation would be involved in food-related aggression during the most stressful season. [...] Aggression among band females was detectable in two other broadly defined situations; those concerned water and infants. In winter when water sources froze or in summer when they sometimes slowed to a trickle, females (infrequently) congregated for access to water. When doing so, they invariably kicked and pushed their bodies at one another. Most intraband aggression occurred, however, when individuals approached too close to a newborn foal. Aggression was also observed when weaned yearlings annoyed their mothers and attempted to suckle."

Finally (for this post, which is already becoming too long!), Berger makes an interesting comment about domestic vs feral horses: "In domestic horses, aggression and combat among males is less frequent and among females is more frequent than in feral populations [...]." One reason for the male difference is obvious (gelding); the reasons for the female difference are less clear, but Berger seems to be implying that reduced availability of space in many domestic situations is a factor.

Fascinating stuff!


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## amandap (12 May 2011)

fburton said:



			Finally (for this post, which is already becoming too long!), Berger makes an interesting comment about domestic vs feral horses: "In domestic horses, aggression and combat among males is less frequent and among females is more frequent than in feral populations [...]." One reason for the male difference is obvious (gelding); the reasons for the female difference are less clear, but Berger seems to be implying that reduced availability of space in many domestic situations is a factor.

Fascinating stuff!
		
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Thanks fburton, I'm still taking in the information I've read and it takes me a long time to process it.

In my observations of aggression and overt moving of others between horses in my herd I have noticed that space is the factor that has the most effect on this behaviour. I have a large yard with double access to a barn which I thought was big enough. This year I have opened my other yard as well so they have twice the space. The mare I have who is the most active and assertive with others has been extremely chilled and I have seen very little aggressive behaviour from her at all. The only times I have observed it is when I am late with a hay round (diets) and they are hungry. 
I have come to realize that for my herd at least 'space' is critical to their feeling of peace and security (I use these terms based on my observations of their interactions). I'm begining to tie this in with personal space and access to survival resources in my head but not being a scientist and enough knowledge of others research it is only my thinking.
I remember bing a bit shocked when I first read Marthe Kylie Worthingtons thoughts that much of domestic horse behaviour may well be abberant (hope I haven't misrepresented her here, this is my understanding) but the more I thought about it, observed my herd I think I may well agree.

Yes it is all very fascinating.


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## Tinypony (12 May 2011)

Great discussion.  

I am just squirming in envy at Cptrayes "My main source of information is to look out of my lounge window at the interactions between my own horses..."

Oh, if only!


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## amandap (12 May 2011)

Tinypony said:



			I am just squirming in envy at Cptrayes "My main source of information is to look out of my lounge window at the interactions between my own horses..."

Oh, if only!
		
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I'm another lucky enough to have mine outside my back door. It is a real privelage and so interesting. I have my tea breaks often with them and if I need a chill or fancy some company I just go out and sit with them.  I am so very lucky.


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## Fellewell (12 May 2011)

Treats and misunderstandings?

So you're standing in front of a vending machine, you know it's full of goodies. You insert a coin, IN YOUR MIND you've done as much as you need to do to get the goods. The goods don't arrive. Bummer. You give the machine a nudge, nothing happens. You give a bigger nudge, no sweets. Finally in frustration you kick it.
This is not rational behaviour for a problem solving human being is it? So how do you expect a horse not to get confused with clicker training? YOU'RE A HUMAN VENDING MACHINE and he will run through his gamut of remembered tricks in the hope of a reward (not necessarily in the right sequence!)

'Timing has a lot to do with the outcome of a raindance'. This couldn't be more true when applied to horses


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## AndySpooner (12 May 2011)

Fellewell, couldn't agree more, this sort of training is a long way from NH in my view, I know some claim to have great success with it but I think s lot depends on the mindset of the horse you have.

I also agree with Berger's conclusion that space is the most influencing factor regarding aggression within the domestic 'herd'. Male aggression being somewhat thwarted in the domestic setting.

I know we think of ten or twenty acre fields as big, but this is nothing compared to the range of a wild herd.


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## cptrayes (12 May 2011)

fburton said:



			Then I respectfully submit you are not seeing the clicker trainers who know what they are doing; rather, you are seeing people who feed randomly and inadvertently reward nuisance behaviour.
		
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I know that. But many of these people whose horses nibble at their pockets constantly will criticise me for hitting one of my horses.  That's what pees me off!



fburton said:



			With lunge-biting, which sounds more like what you have
		
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I don't "have" anything. No horse of mine has ever tried to bite me a second time.  I was interested in how you would achieve the same result, not looking for advice as to how I should do it. 



fburton said:



			If you're in a position to reward behaviours incompatible with biting, that is definitely worth doing.
		
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I reward all desireable behaviour with approval. I never use titbits, I find them unnecessary to start with and counterproductive later. My latest horse would not move off the leg until it had been given the titbit for "allowing" its rider to get on. I just taught him to stand still to be mounted.



fburton said:



			I believe anger has no place in horsemanship.
		
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I agree with you completely, but I have no fear of my horses perceiving me as an occasional aggressor. I don't see or experience any conflict in the occasional use of physical correction of a horse and they never seem to love me any the less for it. I am still followed everywhere I go if I am out doing some work in field. I never tie a horse up to tack up, groom, worm, rasp feet or anything else. I don't think they perceive me as anything but a force for good, and yet I have, at times, hit all of them. 


PS Tinypony I know! I am SO lucky. I wasn't born to it and I worked hard to get it, as well as having some luck. I hope you'll be as lucky one day.


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## Natch (12 May 2011)

Ok I can't find the reason why clicker training was first mentioned, but I'd just like to pipe up that I had a wonderfully fun afternoon this week, teaching a horse who has never done it before to raise a named leg, touch a target, bow and do his stretches when asked by me pointing to his flank.

He didn't, and still doesn't, mug for treats.  He tries to anticipate the click, and sometimes he gets caught up in the moment and can't for the life of him work out what he did work out and repeat 3 times in a row, but he gets there again eventually.

My own experiences of clicker training (not always me training) have mostly been very positive, and resulted in horses who will try their heart out to figure out what you want from them. Of course I don't believe it can be used in all situations with all horses, and indeed my less than brilliant experiences when I was learning were down to my inexperience at the time, and working with horses who got completely over-excited by the prospect of treats. At the opposite end of the scale I have a friend who tried it and her horse just isn't food oriented.

Regarding the human vending machine, my success with this week's horse was due to being able to guide him (okay, and he is a very intelligent horse too!). When I clicker train I don't leave a horse to work out what he has to do by himself, unless there is a high probability of him accidentally exhibiting a behaviour which I can reward. 

Is it strictly necessary? No, probably not, there are often many and varied ways of training things, and indeed the things I have been training don't even need to be done. But its good fun for both horse and human.


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## amandap (12 May 2011)

cptrayes said:



			I know that. But many of these people whose horses nibble at their pockets constantly will criticise me for hitting one of my horses.  That's what pees me off!
		
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I really dislike horses nuzzling for treats as well even though I am an anti hitting horses. I must say hand on heart that if a horse did bite me I can't say I wouldn't slap in the moment. 

Luckily I haven't been bitten or kicked by any of mine.

I am not a clicker trainer but I do believe one of the first things to teach is no mugging so if the human has studied the theory and carries it out 'correctly' then mugging/searching for treats shouldn't be a problem.
Problems with food and treats imo come from ad hoc trreating that as fburton says inadvertantly reward mugging/nuzzling behaviour. Small ponies and Shetlands are notoriously known for mugging and biting but they are also very cute and I think people forget to have rules with them. They are after all little horses and behave and learn the same.


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## tazzle (13 May 2011)

Fellewell said:



			Treats and misunderstandings?

So you're standing in front of a vending machine, you know it's full of goodies. You insert a coin, IN YOUR MIND you've done as much as you need to do to get the goods. The goods don't arrive. Bummer. You give the machine a nudge, nothing happens. You give a bigger nudge, no sweets. Finally in frustration you kick it.
This is not rational behaviour for a problem solving human being is it? So how do you expect a horse not to get confused with clicker training? YOU'RE A HUMAN VENDING MACHINE and he will run through his gamut of remembered tricks in the hope of a reward (not necessarily in the right sequence!)

'Timing has a lot to do with the outcome of a raindance'. This couldn't be more true when applied to horses

Click to expand...

well you do have a point Fellewell ..... many CT horses will indeed offer familiar behaviours when you are trying to train a new one  and when they are new to the work they have not learned that they just need to retry.

this is my horse doing that ......... but she does not kick the "vending machine"  or walk away in disgust ... she just tries again    ( btw I amalgamated the offered behaviours in the vid , they were not offered all together like that.)


http://s17.photobucket.com/albums/b89/tazzle22/?action=view&current=vendingmachine.mp4


however I would ask you to consider that *all* training methods involve trial and error on behalf of the horse.  No horse automatically knows what to do in order to release pressure for example to a particular area...... it might generalise also when you are trying something new.  It might have learnt that two legs applying pressure means walk forward but when you change that to one leg on the girth he does not know you want lateral work or behind the girth moves haunches, he has to work it out and will offer other stuff.  Some horses get frustrated at this too.  


All training "factions" also do have learners and experienced practitioners . and every stage in between...... we cant judge a method only by the "poorer" examples we have seen.  I for example have people local to me that are "traditional" / bhs whos horses  cannot back up, cannot sidepass into small spaces to let lorries pass, cannot pass tractors, cannot be trusted to keep in the pace they are in when the contact is dropped etc... yet my mainly CT horse is rather good at all the above .  I do not blame the method for the practioners less than perfect knowlege or skills (or mistakes cos we all make them  ) ...... most methods applied correctly and sympathetically and fairly will produce a balanced, polite well trained horse



I dont think we fall into the more negative  sterotyped Nh / CT image ..... well we do do groundwork ..... and well Taz does do tricks I suppose









but she also does other things too
















she is also so gentle and sensitive that we do work with people with special needs  .. some in wheelchails,  most with learning  / physical difficulties  and some with challenging behaviours.

No way I could have a horse doing this that was demanding of treats   . I watched a young man recently with learning difficulties and in a wheelchair ask Taz to pick up her feet for him while she was practicaly in his lap he was asking her to be so close. He was using a cue unfamiliar to her but asking for a known behaviour ....and not rewarding her. She had to work out what he wanted. This was a situation like the intial quote as being a situation where a CTd horse would get frustrated and "kick the vending machine" ....

 errrmm   please could I ask critics of the method to  reconsider when you have seen a more experienced partnership .... not that I am an expert by any means  . there are more experiencesdpractitioner than me out there !!!


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## AndySpooner (13 May 2011)

Tazzle, interesting and enlightening post, for me anyway.


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## amandap (13 May 2011)

I have 'met' Tazzle on other forums in the past and have always had a huge amount of respect for her achievements especially as her horse was a 'problem' horse. 
Another very balanced and thought provoking post as usual Tazzle.


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## Fellewell (13 May 2011)

No disrespect Tazzle, but the behaviour of your dog told me more about the relationship you have with that horse than your post did.
So far no one has been able to make a case for the defence of conditional training. Even in the original studies scientists noted that when the treats dried up so did the behaviour. As for mounted work; when you back a horse properly, with time and patience, the training stays for life. The prosecution rests.


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## Tinypony (13 May 2011)

Hi Tazzle (waves)
Tazzle's horse is a beautifully trained riding horse.  I've seen her casually riding around on one rein, doing lateral work with the head bent towards and away from the rein.  Lovely stuff.


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## Amymay (13 May 2011)

Hi Tazzle, really enjoyed reading your post.  Your horse sounds like one in a million.


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## Natch (13 May 2011)

Felewell, do you speak of classical and operant conditioning? In which case there is plenty of anecdotal evidence that once reward stops behaviour continues (if trained well), in all sorts of schools of training. Does everybody reward their horse when picking out his feet every day? I confess I do praise that behaviour out of old habit, but plenty of people would say that since it is a known cue and response, the behaviour shouldnt be rewarded, and so 1000s of horses up and down the country who were initially conditioned via reward to pick up their feet, now never receive a reward for it but still perform the behaviour.

Some heartening vids on you tube too, of clicker trained horses who are advanced in their training and are performing advanced sequences to only the click as reward, and sometimes a 10 min long performance with only one click at the end.


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## cptrayes (13 May 2011)

tazzle said:








Click to expand...




Off topic,,but can't resist. What a FABULOUS set of barefoot feet    !!


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## Serenity087 (13 May 2011)

Feck Parelli, everyone should be watching Monty Roberts!! <3 <3 <3

Felewell - you are wrong.  Dorey was clicker trained years ago and then went to stud for three years.  Upon returning she remembered she had me trained to give clicks when she did certain things and started to repeat what she had learnt.  She does it for clicks, not treats (often her reward is a scratch on her itchy spot!) and often she gets ignored, but she never gives up.
Thats not just mere conditioning, thats a horse who understands why I've taught her what she knows.  She tells me when she wants something without barging, kicking or being rude and if it's the right time, she gets it.

Parelli assumes horses are eejits and humans have all the brains.  People need to realise the horses are the ones with the brains and we're not.

They work out oh so quickly they get what they want from us if they do the right things.  It's calling human training.  It's just some humans respond better to being kicked and bitten than anything else.

FTR - I encourage everyone with problems catching to chase the horse away.  You run, fine, I shall keep you running.  You want to graze, you're going to have to do it whilst I'm approaching you.  But you shouldn't be chasing unless they're running away anyway!


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## Spudlet (13 May 2011)

Fellewell, I clicker trained a long sequence of behaviours into my dog step by step years ago (a formal retrieve, which involves a number of distinct phases). He had to be taught each step in sequence - touch the dummy, then go to the dummy, the go the dummy and pick up the dummy, then bring the dummy to me, then hold the dummy, then hold and sit with the dummy in front of me, give the dummy to my hand, wait for the send away without running in, watch me for direction - every step taught one at a time and built into a chain. He still does it - only I now rarely reward the behaviour with a treat although it is always incentivised in some way. Nor do I need to reinforce every step now, the chain of behaviours is fully established in his mind and he carries each one out in sequence in order to bring the dummy (or bird) back to me. Does he need an incentive to work? Of course he does, how many people would carry on showing up at the office every day if their paypackets stopped? But the chain of behaviours is indeed ingrained and conditioned in him.

Oh, and ALL animal training is conditioning IMO, the difference is in the enforcement used. You condition a horse that legs on mean forward etc.


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## Natch (13 May 2011)

Serenity087 said:



			They work out oh so quickly they get what they want from us if they do the right things.  It's calling human training.  It's just some humans respond better to being kicked and bitten than anything else.
		
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So true! This was the point I was trying to make ages ago when people were debating if a horse can fake lameness. Of course they can, if the horse links limping with a positive response (cessation of work, removal of an annoying stimulus or pain...).


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## tazzle (13 May 2011)

Fellewell said:



			No disrespect Tazzle, but the behaviour of your dog told me more about the relationship you have with that horse than your post did.
So far no one has been able to make a case for the defence of conditional training. Even in the original studies scientists noted that when the treats dried up so did the behaviour. As for mounted work; when you back a horse properly, with time and patience, the training stays for life. The prosecution rests.
		
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I would truly be interested in reading  your thoughts about the dog / horse behaviour Fellewell  

hmmmmmmmm   I wonder what scientists noted the behaviour drying up when the treats dried up ..... one the behaviour is on cue it stays there whether the treats are there or not.. if I treated for every single behaviour I have even "taught" Taz I would never get on her and ride  , drive or anything ...... I could never have done an endurance ride of 20 miles or a driving trials course / dressage / trec  stopping to reward behaviours. 

Taz is now 16 and there are behaviours still intact that I have not rewarded in 10 years !

I dont treat her now for lifting up her feet  or a myriad of other behaviours....ridden  /driven or on the ground ... only new or being improved  behaviours are rewarded... she would also be the size of a house 

If you found out  more about positive reinforcement you would realise that the  treat aspect can be very quickly phased out ....... the behaviour I was trying to establish in that clip is a small part of what is actually a larger one I am working on and involves something that few horses would tolerate, its been done as a special project.


I did the time and patience to back my horse properly   ....... one that someone with less respect  for horses had so ruined she was dangerous ..... terrified of tack, whips and people. So I had to undo all that garbage and change her perception of being trained before I  re backed her.  

You will note I have not disrepected any other person / training method  ....... and if I had used other methods they would probably have worked too ( I incorpotrate some NH) ........ but I know that rewarding is horse is not just operant conditioning, its building a relationship.




			The prosecution rests
		
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I find that phrase rather telling imo 



Thank you very much for the positive comments about Taz from others...... much appreciated


  re the barefoot ...... thanks  for comments .......... We were rare in doing endurance barefoot then and had to bring a letter from our farrier to let the event farrier know I had not just  pulled them the day before as if she had cast a shoe ... ermmm dont shoes leave holes for quite a while  

we did take boots with us but never needed them   we also drove miles on the road and never been lame, never needed shoes.... boots very occasionally if she was wearing feet down faster then growing.


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## Tinypony (13 May 2011)

Tazzle, when I first met you, you were postively reinforcing every time she stood still to be mounted. (Bearing in mind here that you were re-training a very traumatised horse that had been ridden before).  It's a simple example, but I haven't seen you do that when you've got on for a very long time.  So, it appears to me that when the treats dried up that behaviour stayed firmly in place.  Of course, the horse can be trained to stand well for mounting in other ways, but that's just a different approach surely, it doesn't mean that one is wrong and one is right.  There is more than one way to back a horse "properly".


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## amandap (13 May 2011)

Tinypony said:



			Of course, the horse can be trained to stand well for mounting in other ways, but that's just a different approach surely, it doesn't mean that one is wrong and one is right.  There is more than one way to back a horse "properly".
		
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So true imo. For me the way we train has to fit both horse and human and be flexible.


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## tazzle (13 May 2011)

Tinypony said:



			Tazzle, when I first met you, you were postively reinforcing every time she stood still to be mounted. (Bearing in mind here that you were re-training a very traumatised horse that had been ridden before).  It's a simple example, but I haven't seen you do that when you've got on for a very long time.  So, it appears to me that when the treats dried up that behaviour stayed firmly in place.  Of course, the horse can be trained to stand well for mounting in other ways, but that's just a different approach surely, it doesn't mean that one is wrong and one is right.  There is more than one way to back a horse "properly".
		
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thanks tinypony    . sorry didn't acknowledge  you and   * wave *  earlier  as I was in a bit of a rush  just in from work and  checking mails etc before heading off to yard  ......... and still have not worked out all the "buttons to press"  to quote / modify etc   easily yet. takes me a while to  find them   


For those that dont know me I work with people who have learning difficulties,  many of whom present very  challenging behaviour,  so have to use very adaptable and mixed  means of faciltating learning  (and modifying some behaviours ) .   The one thing we can NEVER use is physical punishment ....... ( if a person is biting me I have to use other means to try and prevent reccurence. ).  I also cannot  use food as a reward ..... so have to find whatever motivator I can to provide incentive for change.   

Just like with horses one learning tool  rarely works in isolation ....  most training methods utilise  parts of  each "section" of positive and negative reinforcement /  positive and negative punishment.  What we tend to do  however is polarise towards   either positive or negative reinforcement and "label" ourselves whether we realise or or not.  Other people then get preconceptions based on their own defintions / interpreations of that label and make judgements  ..... sometimes without evaluating all the evidence. 

Off to have more of a look around


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## Tinsel Town (13 May 2011)

hehe, your post has made me giggle (altough i know not intended) bless you  how ANNOYING!!   galaxy ripples being sent to you along with some faggs


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## tazzle (13 May 2011)

alligator40 said:



			is there some purpose to your horse being able to stomp on balloons? 

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well  yes    she was such a nervous horse  we did a lot of getting her used to scary stuff ..... including ... .balloons ( and pushchairs / umbrellas plastic bags etc etc etc.  Balloons seemed to be everywhere on gateposts in villages and towns telling folks where parties were .     Maked sense for her to be habituated to as much as possible as she seemed to have not had much of an education even before she was messed  up by someone .... the less scary stuff being met for the first time out on our  walks / hacks the better 


We were planning a demo day at EMW and as the finale (and a bit of fun which also demontrated how far rescue pones had come ) we put in as much "scary" stuff as we could based round  a fairytale style commentary.  We were helping the prince to get through and past loads obstacles the wicked witch had put in his way to find his princess (so they could get wed  and live happily ever after).  Taz was destroying the poisonous fungi ( to show that even sudden bangs right next to a horse need not necessarily be an issue ).

 Plus seeing unusual stuff that most horses don't do makes people remember and go ahhh  or laugh  ( hopefully) ....... and maybe donate just a little bit more to the charity   

bit like the police horses doing their demo stuff ... jumping through fire  makes for great watching but rare indeed will an officer need to ask his horse to do it in real life .


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## DragonSlayer (13 May 2011)

alligator40 said:



			is there some purpose to your horse being able to stomp on balloons? 

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It looks clever?


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## tazzle (13 May 2011)

DragonSlayer said:



			It looks clever?
		
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  well she is     but the reason at the time was the demo ..... something "different" ..... if its also useful so much the better !


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## cptrayes (13 May 2011)

alligator40 said:



			is there some purpose to your horse being able to stomp on balloons? 

Click to expand...

Well you can bet your bottom dollar she won't be one of those people who post every darned Fireworks night, (as if we don't know it's coming and don't have long enough to desensitise our horses), to complain that people are allowed to set off fireworks and it should be banned because their poor ickle horse is afraid of the bangs.


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## Tinypony (13 May 2011)

tazzle said:



			well  yes    she was such a nervous horse  we did a lot of getting her used to scary stuff ..... including ... .balloons ( and pushchairs / umbrellas plastic bags etc etc etc.  Balloons seemed to be everywhere on gateposts in villages and towns telling folks where parties were .     Maked sense for her to be habituated to as much as possible as she seemed to have not had much of an education even before she was messed  up by someone .... the less scary stuff being met for the first time out on our  walks / hacks the better 


We were planning a demo day at EMW and as the finale (and a bit of fun which also demontrated how far rescue pones had come ) we put in as much "scary" stuff as we could based round  a fairytale style commentary.  We were helping the prince to get through and past loads obstacles the wicked witch had put in his way to find his princess (so they could get wed  and live happily ever after).  Taz was destroying the poisonous fungi ( to show that even sudden bangs right next to a horse need not necessarily be an issue ).

 Plus seeing unusual stuff that most horses don't do makes people remember and go ahhh  or laugh  ( hopefully) ....... and maybe donate just a little bit more to the charity   

bit like the police horses doing their demo stuff ... jumping through fire  makes for great watching but rare indeed will an officer need to ask his horse to do it in real life .
		
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Purpose = raising funds for a great charity.  Purpose = helping to make a nervy horse less nervous.  Wish we had a like button.


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## tazzle (13 May 2011)

cptrayes said:



			Well you can bet your bottom dollar she won't be one of those people who post every darned Fireworks night, (as if we don't know it's coming and don't have long enough to desensitise our horses), to complain that people are allowed to set off fireworks and it should be banned because their poor ickle horse is afraid of the bangs.
		
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ohhhhh you have hit that button soooo precisely    

that and the much ado about the england flags for the  world cup   ... doh , it happens every four years for goodness sake ..... and we have royal weddings and st georges day ..


same with kids and balls and bikes and toys etc.......so many people dont habituate their horses too all this stuff and end up trying to sort it out on a hack or at a show

thanks goodness I did some "silliy" stuff like throwing balls not only over her but ON her . ....  last year I saw this little kid in his garden eliberatley line his football up and kick it over the fence right at her    . ok she winced a little as she had not seen it coming till the last millisecond.... but she did not have a meltdown into the traffic *phew.

She is not perfect and not immune from having ... "oops that's  a scary new traffic sign  been put up in mY village.... how dare they" day ... but  hey, she is  a horse she has an "off" day like we all do sometimes


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## DragonSlayer (13 May 2011)

alligator40 said:



			CPT....my ponies take no notice of firework night WSE TBH..and they dont stomp on balloons 

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Mine don't bother either, they stand and watch, when we are down the field checking them!

Don't bother with bird-scarers, we ride past the shooting range on the bridle-way, and they don't give a hoot when it sounds like WW3 in there.....

...and mine don't stamp on balloons.


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## cptrayes (13 May 2011)

And neither do mine but I can't see any reason to question why someone else teaches their horse to do it. It looks like a lot of fun.


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## DragonSlayer (13 May 2011)

cptrayes said:



			And neither do mine but I can't see any reason to question why someone else teaches their horse to do it. It looks like a lot of fun.
		
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If they wanna do it then that is fine.

HOWEVER...like others on this thread who might go 'a different way' on training horses against 'tradition'....the poster in question is once again implying that those people might not 'be bothered' to 'train' their horses correctly.

Those, like me...who have used traditional methods for years, find this rather trying after a time, do these people think that are 'mightier than us' because of their 'alternative' training methods?

Not in my book.

Tazzle said -

'.......so many people dont habituate their horses too all this stuff and end up trying to sort it out on a hack or at a show...'

I hack and go to shows. Yet my horses seem to be unfazed by the heaviest traffic, loud sudden noises etc etc etc.....

I have not once implied that those whose use 'alternative' methods are wrong, so it is only natural to expect back the same respect, don't you think?


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## cptrayes (13 May 2011)

DragonSlayer said:



			Tazzle said -

'.......so many people dont habituate their horses too all this stuff and end up trying to sort it out on a hack or at a show...'
		
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But she didn't say you had to habituate yours using the same methods as her, did she, or have I missed something on previous pages?  I think we just all agree that they should be habituated to scary things, don't we?

I don't clicker train either, but I have no problems with someone who really knows how to do it using it to teach her horse to pop balloons. I would think that could raise a lot of money at a charity event 

Alligator40 you had confidence in the pony after your desensitisation, breaking it in with a brand spanking new saddle


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## Natch (13 May 2011)

DragonSlayer said:



			Tazzle said -

'.......so many people dont habituate their horses too all this stuff and end up trying to sort it out on a hack or at a show...'

I hack and go to shows. Yet my horses seem to be unfazed by the heaviest traffic, loud sudden noises etc etc etc.....

I have not once implied that those whose use 'alternative' methods are wrong, so it is only natural to expect back the same respect, don't you think?
		
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But there ARE people out there who don't habituate their horses to stuff. I don't think Tazzle has ever said that everyone who does things traditionally is wrong? I know another contributor did seem to be saying that a few pages back, but not Tazzle?



alligator40 said:



			we can all desensitise..without clickers..or balloons..or any other circus tricks..

spar bags/empty fab cond bottles/stuffed overalls..etc...






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Good lord you used a dummy jockey?! They shoot you for that on here you know 

Desensitisation can be done in any manner of ways, agreed.


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## tazzle (13 May 2011)

I dont think I ever said it was necessary anywhere for any horse to burst balloons in order to get them used to loud noises like birdscarers.... normal habituation will do just fine in most cases  ..... but  no reason not to either.    ....why is it such an issue 


Since we also drove father chrismas and his fairies to the christmas party  ..... and gave carriage rides to kids at birthday parties .... balloon training generally came in handy.  


The reason for posting the actual picure was illustrating that I can do things like this and  not just talk about it . Too many people say their horses can do stuff but dont show any examples . I am new here so provided evidence that of  what I say I do.


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## tazzle (13 May 2011)

DragonSlayer said:



			If they wanna do it then that is fine.

HOWEVER...like others on this thread who might go 'a different way' on training horses against 'tradition'....the poster in question is once again implying that those people might not 'be bothered' to 'train' their horses correctly.

Those, like me...who have used traditional methods for years, find this rather trying after a time, do these people think that are 'mightier than us' because of their 'alternative' training methods?

Not in my book.

Tazzle said -

'.......so many people dont habituate their horses too all this stuff and end up trying to sort it out on a hack or at a show...'

I hack and go to shows. Yet my horses seem to be unfazed by the heaviest traffic, loud sudden noises etc etc etc.....

I have not once implied that those whose use 'alternative' methods are wrong, so it is only natural to expect back the same respect, don't you think?
		
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Can I ask you please to go back and re read my posts ........... I have said several times that I am not disrepecting any other methods or saying CT is the only way to do all this stuff. I am saying that many people  I see out and about do not prepare their horses properly.. ...... often I dont know what training method they have used on their horses. 


Please note that I have said just the same about those who choose CT /NH /IH ( or any other acronym) . .....a poor  / just learner practitioner of any persuaion will make mistakes or not be able to use the method properly or fairly and mis represent the "method".


I came here only to present evidence that a  CT horse properly trained and prepared can do anything other horses can ..... and to refute the very prejudicial and biased statments that were being made by some that CTing  produced frustrated horses  .... and that they or NH folks were afraid to ride and did not actually "do" anything.


I am missing  reading posts that are crossing my own as I am slow to type ... so please excuse any inconsistancies or apparrent ignoring of questions / comments in my replies.


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## Tinypony (13 May 2011)

I've re-read a couple of times and I think that some are looking for a fight where one doesn't exist.
Nobody's made any sweeping generalisations.  People are just happily chatting away about alternative ways of approaching things.  I don't know why some are outraged at the concept of teaching a horse to burst a few balloons, life with horses doesn't always have to be serious, or have some great "purpose" does it?
If someone cared for their horse well, and chose to play with things like balloons rather than ride, I personally wouldn't have a problem with it.  Who's to say what should or shouldn't be done?


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## tazzle (13 May 2011)

do these people think that are 'mightier than us' because of their 'alternative' training methods?
		
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I think the first inferrence made on the thread  was that those who practice "alternative" methods wont / cant ride and confuse / scare their horses .

I admire good horsemanship not any particular method as an entirety.

A good friend and hacking companion of mine is BHS through and through ...... and judged at windsor horse show  ......... she respects what I do and I respect her ways...... and we both have polite neddies


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## tazzle (13 May 2011)

alligator40 said:



			we can all desensitise..without clickers..or balloons..or any other circus tricks..











spar bags/empty fab cond bottles/stuffed overalls..etc...







6 weeks later...after being petrified of a brush touching his back...







2 weeks after....







it can be done without "circus tricks"
		
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brilliant work 


 yup , of course it can  ...... the "circus trick" was special for the fundraiser . made it fun for the kids to watch too.


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## Tinypony (14 May 2011)

Circus tricks that aren't unkind to the horse can be fun though.  Another thing to do with the horse, adds variety.


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## Tinypony (14 May 2011)

Thinks.  Another interesting discussion might be desensitiing and flooding - what makes them different?


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## amandap (14 May 2011)

I applaud both tazzle and alligator40 for sensitively (lol) desensitizing their horses. I agree with tazzle that it is often largely over looked and may (imo) be one reason for some horses panicing when out and about.

I see no problem training tricks within a respectful and caring relationship. My problem with circus tricks is associated with use and abuse of animals especially non domesticated ones. That's a long standing foible of mine.

Surely we are 'allowed' to enjoy the process as well as hoping our horses do or at least are stressed as little as possible. I think we should applaud anyone who trains a confident, generally relaxed and content horse however they get there.
I don't know which way is 'best' I only know what I like and feel right with. I don't think others should do exactly the same as me.

I will read your desensitizing v flooding thread with interest kas.


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## AndySpooner (14 May 2011)

It would be really nice to get folk to understand the reasons behind the pedestal and green ball exercises in the Parelli program.

With regard to desensitizing v flooding, it seems ironic that when the green ball first made its's appearance, the general opinion was that it was a gimic and what was the point of frightening horses with something like that anyway.

Now, fortunately the more enlightened can see the sense in familiarizing horses with unusual objects and occurances. Rather than avoiding anything which may cause a reaction.

Obviously flooding a horse just masks a reaction and an explosion is never far away, desensitizing is a technique which builds a horses confidence to a level where it easily copes with situations which may  otherwise cause an adverse reaction.

Of course you don't need a green ball, and there are many ways to do this, Police riot training of horses springs to mind.


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## fburton (14 May 2011)

cptrayes said:



			I don't "have" anything.
		
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I meant "have in mind", although I also assumed the scenario you described isn't entirely hypothetical for you in that you have had to deal with this behaviour in the past!




			I reward all desireable behaviour with approval. I never use titbits, I find them unnecessary to start with and counterproductive later.
		
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For approval to work, it has to mean something to the horse. I think that has to be learned one way or another. Whether it's _always_ a "strong enough" motivator could be debated; I still think the extra motivation provided by a food reward can sometimes make all the difference.




			I agree with you completely, but I have no fear of my horses perceiving me as an occasional aggressor.
		
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So we'll have to agree to disagree on the use of aggression. In any case, I don't doubt that you have an excellent relationship with your horses. I sincerely mean that.


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## fburton (14 May 2011)

Okay, back to the usefulness (or otherwise) of clicker training... 

Let me say first of all, I don't use a clicker for routine training - so I am a long way from being any kind of expert. However, I have used it successfully several times to address specific problems. Here's an example.

Some years ago, I knew a young Welsh Sec A pony stallion that the farrier insisted on being sedated for trimming because he misbehaved so badly. Fear caused him to detest having his feet touched, let alone held, pared and rasped. However, a few short CT sessions completely turned him around.

The pony had received minimal handling from birth and had never learned to accept people messing with his feet. Instead he would react aggressively to attempts to restrain him for hoof care - rearing, striking out and biting. The root cause of his aggression was fear, and the fact he was a stallion gave it an extra edge. He had already gone through a lot of unpleasantness in previous farrier visits. As far as I know, the routine sedation started at about age 3. Before that, physical force was apparently sufficient to get the job done - though I don't imagine it could have been particularly 'routine' or safe. I wouldn't rule out that he had been slapped or punched either, in response to his unruly behaviour and lack of manners.

(It would be easy to blame the 'owner' for not giving this pony the early handling experience that every horse deserves, except that the 'owner' was not one person and the whole situation was rather complicated and messy. The fact that he was not gelded early on, as he should have been in my opinion, is also due to this situation.)

Anyway, I wanted to see how useful clicker training would be in solving this problem, and to help the pony. Before doing this, however, I spent a little while just seeing how far I could get with gentle, sympathetic handling and 'advance and retreat'. The answer was not very far because he would quickly get upset as soon as any attempt was made to get close to his feet or lower legs. That clearly brought back bad memories for him.

Teaching the pony what the click means -- always be the first lesson -- took less than five minutes, as I have found it does with every horse I've tried it with. (I usually use a traffic cone for that.) Subsequently teaching him to lift each foot reliably to a cue using CT took three or four sessions of 5-10 minutes.

The cue for lifting a forefoot was putting my hand over the pony's nose in a particular way and pointing to the foot I wanted lifted; for a hindfoot it was putting one hand on the croup and pointing to the foot on the same side as me. I associated the cue with the behaviour once it had been produced and reinforced. However, to cause foot lifting initially I didn't even need to touch the foot or leg. In fact, I specifically wanted to avoid doing that. Simply moving my hand towards the leg in the act of pointing was sufficient mental pressure to cause a reaction. No physical pressure was needed or used.

It's worth emphasizing that what the pony felt wasn't merely relief from pressure. That would not have been sufficient to permit me to go beyond pointing to actually touching/cradling his foot, because physical contact would have constituted an even greater pressure. (This example illustrates the fundamental difference between 'relief of pressure' and true reward, and why it's incorrect to view them as the same.)

The clicker training dispelled fear. The fear that something bad might happen to his feet (and to him) was diminished by experiencing that good things were happening in relation to them. That's why acceptance of my getting even closer and touching them came so readily. CT effectively short-circuited this pony's bad feelings about people touching his feet and legs: he couldn't be happy and eager to do something _and_ fearful about it _at the same time_. Once the pony had learned to lift feet on cue - to _offer_ the behaviour himself - it was a straightforward matter to habituate him to having the foot held for longer and longer periods of time, manipulated, tapped, rasped and so on. The only reason he let me hold his feet in the first place was that foot-lifting had become an activity with positive associations.

By the way, targetting rewards is vastly more effective than simply plying a horse with food - otherwise one might expect (wrongly, of course) that plonking a bucket of feed in front of a horse will miraculously produce good behaviour. That is one crucial difference between rewards and bribes. Rewards are more meaningful for a horse when they are linked to specific behaviours. The pony thought he was in control of the situation because it was _his own actions_ (i.e. lifting his feet) that made pieces of carrot appear. So there was no confrontation or struggle or upset, no need for ropes or restraint. The rest of the habituation process could then proceed from a new baseline of willingness that would not have been there, I believe, if I had simply used advance and retreat.

The outcome was a pony that previously needed to be sedated to have his feet trimmed had learned, without any fuss, to lift each foot to a cue and stand quietly while the foot was manipulated. He didn't need sedating for the farrier again (and he didn't start nibbling at pockets). I'd say that was pretty useful!

Incidently, although I didn't use CT with this pony again, I found that in doing other things with him his general attitude had improved in the following days - he was a bit less fearful, touchy and aggressive.

Okay, I'm not saying there is anything special or 'magical' about this. It isn't rocket science. As far as I am concerned, it's just applying basic principles - as basic as (and complementary to) 'pressure and release'.

Cptrayes... I would be interested to hear how you would deal with a case like this.

It just seems a bit of a shame to limit one's options by declaring a tool to be useless or incompatible with a particular kind of horsemanship.


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## cptrayes (14 May 2011)

fburton said:



			Some years ago, I knew a young Welsh Sec A pony stallion that the farrier insisted on being sedated for trimming because he misbehaved so badly. Fear caused him to detest having his feet touched, let alone held, pared and rasped. 

Cptrayes... I would be interested to hear how you would deal with a case like this.
		
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I think the answer to this is that I do clicker training without a clicker or titbits   And that I will, perhaps, more often deliberately cause the behaviour that I want to reward, rather than waiting for the horse to display it so that I can reward it.

I have bought several unhandled horses in the past with varying amounts of fear of having their feet picked up, and one mare who had been ruined by someone else and was terrified of anyone picking up her feet. 

If it is that bad, I would start with laying my hand on the leg wherever the horse will allow me and praising it. I would work my way down the leg until it would allow me to leave my hand on the foot. More praise. I would ask him to pick his foot up and reward, with praise, any movement towards doing that, even if it is just a shift of weight. (I might cause that weight shift by turning the horse or backing it up,  or a strategic push on the shoulder with my hip, but as soon as the horse moves the foot, praise)  At some point the horse will pick the foot off the floor, cue big praise even if he stamps it down again. Eventually you can pick it up, hold it, pick it out, hammer it, etc. Then get OH to do the same, then the farrier. 

It's pretty much the same as clicker training, but I don't click, I speak. And I don't have a titbit, the tone of my voice is the reward. Just like clicker training, the timing of the praise is everything, the horse has to understand what it did that was right. I've never failed, with one exception*. It's never taken more than a week (two in the case of one very unbalanced very big horse with his back nearside leg). 

I have always found horses very reactive to an approving voice. Perhaps I'm lucky with how I sound or something?  I know confidence has a lot to do with it, if you radiate enough confidence that the horse looks to you for leadership, it makes everything much easier.


I did teach my Shetland to "beg" by lifting one paw and "counting" with it,  to the command "ask", with food. I was absolutely astonished when he generalised his "ask" trick into asking for a gate to be opened so that he could come in, and he will use it in other situations when he wants a back scratch, for example, and no food is involved. How clever a horse is THAT ???





* the 4 year old chestnut mare I bought who had been ruined also came from a racing line with a lot of very mentally "odd" horses in it. She never accepted the farrier banging nails into her hind feet, though she was happy with the rest of the shoeing process. I'm a barefooter now and looking back at her extreme reaction I am convinced that nailing on actually hurt her. However, if clicker training had been around then (this was loooong ago!) I would happily have tried it for that mare.


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## tazzle (14 May 2011)

soooooooooooo  really you both might be not that far apart in some respects   .....  . you both want to use positive reinforcement   to train  the same behaviour ..... and whether that involves edible treats /scratches /  verbal praise does it really, really matter as long as the horse considers it pleasant enough to be a motivator of sufficient value for it to change its perception of the human and / or  action it has a negative association with ( in CT terms a "poisoned cue" ).


food treats def come in handy as a motivator when a horse is sooo scared you cant touch it and scratchies at the time are most def not a pleasant prospect  / association for it  ( thats the sad place we were when I first had Taz.


I like to have as many tools in the box as possible and use whatever is appropriate to the situation ... there are some horses / people I cetainly dont reccomend CT to.... some just dont want to for various reasons. I use whatever is needed and imo will serve the horse best.



We didn't use CT for all of the horses in the yard to get them used to stuff. either ....... Taz was the only CT one there anyway  ... but we just left things around, let the kids play with all sorts noisy toys etc and did normal habituation ...... and I consider all  four of them safe to be left loose and walk around the yard whatever happens.  I can, and have, used the "squeeze " game and similar when needed cos sometimes its appropriate to "tell" a horse rather than ask.......Many roads to Rome 





			I applaud both tazzle and alligator40 for sensitively (lol) desensitizing their horses. I agree with tazzle that it is often largely over looked and may (imo) be one reason for some horses panicing when out and about.
		
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The only vital thing I think is that we  create safe and non fearful horses if we go out an about on the roads especially ...... it is the thing that can get me to "rant"  for sure  especially since an occurence a year or so ago.

I was out and met two people out for a hack in the same direction as me, one of whom I was friendly with and I was invited to join them. A few mins later a cycle passed us and the lady I did not know had to deal with a very prancy horse and told us he was really scared of bikes.  erm ok    thinks... bikes are rather common around here, this will be fun ( not).  Mabye the other two will give him some confidence though.  


Later in the hack I was in front when suddenly no2 horse rushed up behind and to the left of us shoving Taz a step or two to the right ... and circling / rearing to the right of us was the "scared of bikes"  horse .... with several racing bikes having to swerve wide onto the other side of the road to avoid a collision.  Had a car or van ( or heaven forbid a lorry) been coming the other way it would have been utter carnage and maybe have cost lives  including the rider and her horse.

Such an unneccesary risk and sooo forseeable with the commonality of bikes around. It has really made it a bit of a "thing" with me I do admit, failure to habituate ( however its done) or prepare a horse for walking on the most dangerous track it ever will, our roads.


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## Natch (14 May 2011)

Desensetising v flooding, tiny pony. I reckon the (only?) difference is how intense the stimulus is for the horse. Oh, sorry, and if its escapable. Or continuous. Guess those depend on the methods used though.


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## AndySpooner (14 May 2011)

Naturally said:



			Desensetising v flooding, tiny pony. I reckon the (only?) difference is how intense the stimulus is for the horse. Oh, sorry, and if its escapable. Or continuous. Guess those depend on the methods used though.
		
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I really do think that there is a massive difference, if you flood the horse you will cause massive problems, it should never be continuous, and there should always be an escape, but, if you do it sensitively the horse should not feel the need to leave.


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## tazzle (14 May 2011)

My problem with circus tricks is associated with use and abuse of animals especially non domesticated ones. That's a long standing foible of mine.
		
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couldnt agree more  ...... . need clapping hand smilie


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## AndySpooner (14 May 2011)

tazzle

My problem with circus tricks is associated with use and abuse of animals especially non domesticated ones. That's a long standing foible of mine.

couldnt agree more ...... . need clapping hand smilie 

What you normally find on here is that people put in emotive phrases like 'Circus Tricks' in order to provoke a response.

Of course they get one.


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## Tinypony (14 May 2011)

Actually, I don't think I have the strength to get into desensitsation and flooding.  I've had a great afternoon out with the pones, and now I've got work to do.  I can't set off at another tangent.   
	
	
		
		
	


	




   I'll just peer in when i get bored and see what everyone's saying.


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## lassiesuca (14 May 2011)

Joining in on the discussion late. But am a fellow clicker trainer **waves** 

I will only be echoing what Laura (Tazzle) and Francis has said, but wanted to add my two cents in.

I think, that people are scared to venture to try new things, particularly food training, as people think treat training = bad habits. Well my question, is how many of you feed your horses from a bucket in a stable or in the field? Does he mug you? Does he chase you around trying to consume you  

I think, as with punishment, it is all about timing which is that clicker training is all about! I think it's unfair to assume that you can train any horse with out needing to use clicker or not use clicker! We're all individuals as are our horses and we have to respect that our horses are the same- individuals. Some horses don't respond to totally to negative reinforcement based training (i.e. using a dually or pressure and release system). 

I think that there are huge misunderstandings also in treat training. My horse used to mug me for treats before we began clicker training, but I taught him not to mug using treats. I think it's unfair to assume that this system is causing bad horses. My horse has developed both physically and more importantly mentally. A lot of clicker training is done through trail and error on the horses behalf. Without writing an essay, we usually use shaping or chaining plans, which allow the horse to do things at his own accord. The thing I find with some of these ideas, is that horses are forced to comply and submit, or they are here all day. My horse has the choice to work with me in the field, and 90% of the time, he comes to play and we do some training. Will attach a vid in a second. 

I totally respect why people are skeptical of using treat training, I was, but I used the thing that motivated my horse the most and used it to train him, we then, as Taz said, fade the clicker, after moving onto a variable schedule of reinforcement. It sounds ridiculous and lots to learn, but it's amazing. 

It's great if you can train without needing to use a clicker, of course, but there is nothing wrong with using one too. It doesn't make you a better trainer or a worse trainer, it makes you a trainer of your horse and that is that. 

What people forget, is clicker training is just a general phrase, it's much easier than saying ''I am a positive reinforcement, clicker/cllucker/voice/body language and treat trainer'' . I personally use the click sound, for several reasons. 

1) I use voice combined with clicker, however I use my voice to cue behaviours and then the click as a consistent sound to mark the end of the behaviour. I use a ''goooood'' as a keep going cue, and the click as a terminal stimulus. 

2) I have speech issues, without going into huge details, I have respiratory issues, since I was a baby and my voice can fluctuate in sound greatly, things come out perhaps poorly and therefore not how I mean it. People misinterpret that, sometimes I sound snobbish other times I mutter and other times I sound sarcastic. So, for my horses sake, I combine the clicker with my voice, as the consistent end cue. 

I've taught behaviours with the clicker, which are now asked for without needing to click and treat and he doesn't mug me anymore either. Clicker training is not a system, it wasn't founded by anyone, it's learning and theory and behavioural science, from years of tests- from Pavlovian conditioning to Fred Skinner's work and Karen Pryor introducing it into the dog world and so on. Nobody pioneered this or founded the method, it's a system based on solid, hard scientific evidence, which is practical and a good tool to add onto your training regime. It aids training, you don't need anything special, you can use scratches instead of treats, you can use a cluck or an 'x' or special word instead of a 'click'. I use treats and a click because my horse is more motivated by treats and thus training progresses faster and the click as stated above. 


Nobody is suggesting you train like this, nobody thinks it's a better system. We combine clicker with other things, just as you apply your system of working (i.e. praising with your voice and scratches) it may work for you and that's fantastic, but your horse isn't my horse and vice versa, it's unfair to mock a system because you think it's rubbish because what you do works. I despise Linda and Pat Parelli, however, have used their 7 games on my youngster! I'm not a brain washed, cult follower, I just take good bits and apply them. Although I'm a fan of the classical training school of work and riding, which also fits in well with clicker! 



Now, for the videos, a lot of these are work in progress. I am at school and have little time to see Shadow because he's kept quite a way away and I have restricted facilities yadeya ya. Anyway, feel free to critique, because I put my vids on youtube for that reason, however please respect that these aren't all finished products and we're both novices, who are learning an awful lot of one another, he's a different horse now and I am proud of him and what he does for me. He's forgiving and patient when I make mistakes, and tolerates my faffing around now. So please don't mock my horse or begin stereotyping, cos he's a clever lad, with a high IQ  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXVE6mDYSRU&feature=channel_video_title


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZ1mJAzNSmk&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

May I also add, that many of these behaviours aren't pointless, and come in very handy for what we do! They may look pointless. I think nothing is pointless, because sometimes you can just have fun training a behaviour. I used to compete and ride dressage an awful lot, however since having Shadow, I've learnt that we can have fun without riding/ After all, one coulisd argue what is the point in riding  horses don't actually NEED to be ridden, not really. But we ride them to keep their minds active, for our own pleasure and to develop their fitness. Training on the ground with or without clicker, is good fun. It isn't all doom and gloom and is a great way to get to know your horse and earn his respect and trust. For that, I couldn't be happier to have met my horse and gained a wealth of understanding of horses in general. How to appreciate them  

Happy horse training everyone. Whether you clicker train, clucker train, ''non-circus-trick'' train, or just train in general


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## Tinypony (14 May 2011)

That's an interesting post, good read, thanks.

(I think it's generally worth sticking to using people's forum names?).

I had a friend who worked for a reputable equine rescue.  She found clicker a really useful tool when the babies came in, as they did every year.  Maybe 4 little foals to a stable, that had been weaned from their mothers at the auction and manhandled about, completely traumatised.  She used to introduce them to clicker over the door, then teach them to target on a stick, and once that was established she could at least start to make move them about without a halter.  They would follow her to and from the paddock just by following the stick.  She continued to use clicker with them during their education, and also (I cringe as I type this...) Parelli.  All I can say is that it worked very well for her and the frightened little ponies.


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## amandap (14 May 2011)

Tinypony said:



			Actually, I don't think I have the strength to get into desensitsation and flooding.  I've had a great afternoon out with the pones, and now I've got work to do.  I can't set off at another tangent.   
	
	
		
		
	


	




   I'll just peer in when i get bored and see what everyone's saying.
		
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That's just how I feel atm. 
	
	
		
		
	


	




Back from a fair and did resist various donkeys, goats, ducks, piglets, calves and ponies.  Very nearly aquired some bantums though.


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## Golf Girl (15 May 2011)

Tinypony said:



			(I think it's generally worth sticking to using people's forum names?)
		
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Hear hear! It seems to be a common misconception on this forum that 'we' are a small, elite 'clique' who all know each other and share the same views and value sets. We're not. This is a large, public equestrian forum and like it or not, 21st century 'horsemanship' is much less exclusive, and much more wide and varied than ever before. Different viewpoints can't just be rubbished and shouted down any longer - 'natural horsemanship' is as valid as any other branch of equestrianism. Better get used to it


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## Golf Girl (15 May 2011)

Tinypony said:



			Thinks.  Another interesting discussion might be desensitiing and flooding - what makes them different?
		
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They are very different. Desensitising is much preferable and more effective, in my humble opinion


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## Natch (15 May 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			I really do think that there is a massive difference, if you flood the horse you will cause massive problems, it should never be continuous, and there should always be an escape, but, if you do it sensitively the horse should not feel the need to leave.
		
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I completely agree that there is a huge difference in the emotional result on the horse. I have been doing a lot of thinking about behavioural and training theory, and one of the outcomes of my thoughts is that I think the two can be different ends of a continual scale - when does one become the other and what defines that?



Tinypony said:



			Actually, I don't think I have the strength to get into desensitsation and flooding.  I've had a great afternoon out with the pones, and now I've got work to do.  I can't set off at another tangent.   
	
	
		
		
	


	




   I'll just peer in when i get bored and see what everyone's saying.
		
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Oi you, you started it!


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## Dry Rot (15 May 2011)

Interesting thread.

The cavalry used to sound a cannon at midday which is when the horses got their hard feed -- and that is how they got horses to gallop towards the Russian guns at The Charge of the Light Brigade!

Coming to training horses from parallel disciplines, it was natural to me to desensitise my youngsters and was amazed at the criticism I got from some other horse owners. Do they not send their kids to nursery school?


Dog proofed....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llLgWst3UlQ

Umbrellas....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YvSxLA7A_U

Training a youngster....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ia34rjhBgA


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## AndySpooner (15 May 2011)

Golf Girl said:



			They are very different. Desensitising is much preferable and more effective, in my humble opinion 

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Whilst I agree they are different, it can be argued that flooding may be the result of a handler/trainer who may not be subtle enough or not understand how a desensitizing technique can be the cause of flooding.

For example, using the green ball, I say this because it is what I am familiar with, can easily cause flooding rather than the desired desensitizing. Where there is no escape the horse may submit to having the ball placed on its back. When done properly the horse accepts this as par for the course, understands there is no danger or threat of danger and stands relaxed. Conversly, the ball placed on a flooded horse's back is still there but the horse is not relaxed and can and will explode.

The result appears to be the same but to the skilled trainer the difference in the horse is obvious. To some trainers what I have said is blindingly obvious, to others it is not.


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## tazzle (15 May 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			Whilst I agree they are different, it can be argued that flooding may be the result of a handler/trainer who may not be subtle enough or not understand how a desensitizing technique can be the cause of flooding.

For example, using the green ball, I say this because it is what I am familiar with, can easily cause flooding rather than the desired desensitizing. Where there is no escape the horse may submit to having the ball placed on its back. When done properly the horse accepts this as par for the course, understands there is no danger or threat of danger and stands relaxed. Conversly, the ball placed on a flooded horse's back is still there but the horse is not relaxed and can and will explode.

The result appears to be the same but to the skilled trainer the difference in the horse is obvious. To some trainers what I have said is blindingly obvious, to others it is not.
		
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Agree with you there  ..... great example of this today at our agility club.

we had a new obstacle to build and it include a lot of rustly tarp style material so we the opportunity to increase the "energy" we could put into a flappy tarp ..... both horses are already habituated to tarps  including it being placed right over them. However  his is a different colour and much, much bigger so they both had bit of a look as we shook it.

so I took it and let Taz have the full lenght of the line while I shook it vigourously, She looked andmoved a foot or two but did not take up the slack.  I jsut kept on at the same energy and as she relaxed I gradually moved closer.... did this till she was happy ( floppy ears)  to have it all over, down the back and pulled around her legs.... and this is about 20 foot long. 

other person holds horse on short rope and tells him to stand ( which he didnt) while she shook the tarp. She did get him eventually to "accept" it but he was a hand taller and very "alert". 

I accept  there might be vallue is sometimes being able to get a horse to stand when the proverbial hits the fan so not saying she is wrong.... just  an illustration that I feel differentiates between desenitisation and flooding.


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## baymareb (15 May 2011)

This is an interesting thread actually. My take on a couple of things -

Desensitizing - I don't generally set out to deliberately do this but I always take the opportunity to work around potentially scary things. My stable is a big one with a lot of activity so there are often people filling up large plastic bags with manure, tractors driving about, vaulting shows with fluttering flags, visitors with dogs, people with umbrellas on rainy days, etc.  

Honestly I think the most valuable thing when working a horse near anything like that is the handler's expectations - if I'm holding my breath and expecting my horse to freak out, she's probably going to. If I treat it as a normal occurrence, she barely flicks an ear.

Training with treats - I did some clicker training with my mare and she caught on quickly but she really didn't seem to need the clicker to "lock" the behavior - the treat itself did that. As someone else said, as far as treats go, it's all in the timing - I would add also the frequency.

My mare is very food oriented - she really equates a treat with her behavior. I only treat her when she perfectly performs whatever behavior I'm asking for and I don't treat every time - in fact, I generally only treat once or at most twice in a session. Their natural optimism works as well (or better) than the knowledge that they'll get a treat every time.

She never, ever mugs for treats. She knows that she only gets them by hand during a training session and only rarely then. She also doesn't nip. My daughter's horse, on the other hand, makes no association between a treat and his behavior so there's no sense using it as a training tool. It all depends on the horse.

As for Parelli, I don't use any one system to train. I've taken bits and pieces that I agree with from a number of clinicians, used a number of tried and true traditional methods and added in a large dose of common sense to train my mare. It seems to be working well and no one appears to be confused. 

Much of Parelli seems to be similar to others but with cutesy names - the porcupine game, the friendly game, etc. Much of it I don't like at all. My horse has learned to keep out of my space by me using my body language to push her out of it, not by shaking a lead rope at her. I don't like the idea of my horse trailing behind me on a lead - I prefer to have her next to me on a loose lead. And I do think too many people are using it who are looking for a fits-every-size handling method because they don't have the experience or common sense to appreciate the diversity in horses.

Sorry, longer than I meant it to be.


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## Spudlet (15 May 2011)

Common sense - the most valuable tool any trainer, whatever their chosen method, can ever have!

There's more than one way to do anything you care to mention, so why should training a horse be any different? Do what works best for you and your horse, remember there is always something new to learn for everyone, and you won't go far wrong


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## amandap (16 May 2011)

Dry Rot said:



			Dog proofed....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llLgWst3UlQ

Click to expand...

Hehe. I'm dying to know what is going through that hounds mind... "how _do_ you get up there?"... lol

Incidentally, does this vid show the power of food? lol


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## Natch (16 May 2011)

baymareb said:



			Training with treats - I did some clicker training with my mare and she caught on quickly but she really didn't seem to need the clicker to "lock" the behavior - the treat itself did that. As someone else said, as far as treats go, it's all in the timing - I would add also the frequency.
		
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Very true. The click is only really needed if a) you're interested in seeing how it works and/or b) you're planning on working at a distance or in a type of work which you can't stop and treat for (or are working from a distance and can't get the reward to the horse quickly).

The voice is also a great and widely used secondary reinforcer.

Now then, can anybody who knows their behavioural theory help me here? I have:

Cicker and reward (secondary and primary reinforcer)
Voice (another reinforcer)
Wip to tap tap horse to illicit desired response (what is this called?)
M action which I want the horse to respond to (cue)

So say I want my horse to raise his left leg when I raise mine.

I raise my leg (provide a cue, or is it a primary reinforcer? Something else?). Gie horse a chance to see and respond. No response, so I tap leg gently with whip indicating I'd like him to do something with that leg (is that called a secondary cue?) He picks up leg (offers correct response) and I click (secondary reinforcer) and treat (primary reinforcer) and use my voice (out of habit not necessity - but is this a 3rd reinforcer??)

Anyone who can help me by coming up with the technically right names for the above sequence gets a cup of hot chocolate with extra whipped cream on top!


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## Captainmouse (16 May 2011)

well had my thoughts on Parelli well and truely confirmed this weekend having watched a horse rear up and go over, whilst being parellied and being told it was good cos she was locking on, I'll continue to avoid like the plaque!


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## Natch (16 May 2011)

Hello and welcome to the forum captainmouse. Have you been here before?


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## Captainmouse (16 May 2011)

Nope 1st post, have been reading for a while


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## tazzle (16 May 2011)

I raise my leg (provide a cue, or is it a primary reinforcer? Something else?).
		
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it is not a cue as it means nothing yet to the horse, its not linked to an established behaviour .....  unless of course your horse already has learnt the principles  of copying body actions in which case  maybe rethink this 

, 




			Gie horse a chance to see and respond. No responseso I tap leg gently with whip indicating I'd like him to do something with that leg (is that called a secondary cue?)
		
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the tap of the leg is an aversive if he is sufficiently bothered by it to move the leg away. It can later become the cue. 






			He picks up leg (offers correct response) and I click (secondary reinforcer) and treat (primary reinforcer)
		
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hmm technically it depends on the timing  .... if you released the pressure (stopped tapping)  before you clicked then its was negative reinforcement taking place.  If you click just before you release the pressure then it is more likely to be viewed by the horse as positive reinforcement.  This is a huuuuge topic and it depends on which "expert" you listen to as to whether they think any or what level of aversive should be used.





			and use my voice (out of habit not necessity - but is this a 3rd reinforcer??)
		
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 Has your horse for definate made the connection that your voice means he is correct........ it could be a conditioned ( learned) reinforcer

It is  hard to say categorically as human voices have such variation and we use certain words like "good girl" so often when not linked to an actual action its very confusing for the horse........... although indeed I was able to tell that new loaner of Bonney was using those words as the "click" before she told me or I saw .... Bonney "told" me   







			Anyone who can help me by coming up with the technically right names for the above sequence gets a cup of hot chocolate with extra whipped cream on top!
		
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well I have done this very quickly ....... but I like hot chooccy     do I get a mouthful ?


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## suejs001 (1 September 2011)

Why blame it on the horse - why blame it on Parelli - get over yourself have you ever thought it could have been YOU that was the problem! 
FGS the Parelli method is just fine if it is taught correctly as is every other method.... but everything is down to interpretation and rather than MOANING about said livery on here and the horse and Parelli you would be better speaking to the owner CONSTRUCTIVELY if that is at all possible.  Just because you don't do Parelli does not mean that it is not a good way to teach and train your horse.  Come play with my boy sometime anytime lets see what kind of horse woman you really are ... Mmmm Narrow Minded and biggoted perhaps????


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## DragonSlayer (1 September 2011)

suejs001 said:



			Why blame it on the horse - why blame it on Parelli - get over yourself have you ever thought it could have been YOU that was the problem! 
FGS the Parelli method is just fine if it is taught correctly as is every other method.... but everything is down to interpretation and rather than MOANING about said livery on here and the horse and Parelli you would be better speaking to the owner CONSTRUCTIVELY if that is at all possible.  Just because you don't do Parelli does not mean that it is not a good way to teach and train your horse.  Come play with my boy sometime anytime lets see what kind of horse woman you really are ... Mmmm Narrow Minded and biggoted perhaps????
		
Click to expand...

Who is this aimed at? There are many for and against people participating on this thread....


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## fatpiggy (1 September 2011)

The biggest problem is that an awful lot of people have jumped onto the bandwagon of "horse whispering", Parelli, "natural horse methods" or whatever and embraced them with biblical zeal, but as with most things in life, it takes YEARS of practice to become good at anything, so you get someone who has watched a couple of, say, Parelli demonstrations, thinks they know it all and set to work ruining horses, and the reputation of the technique.  I taught my horse to back up on command simply by touching her chest and saying back. Now, after many years I just say BACK and she will keep going until I stop saying it.  Its a method I've used for donkey's years, stresses no-one and WORKS.  When I first got her I did use join-up with her as much to see what she knew and what she didn't, but us old fogeys know that join-up is just plain and simple and totally obvious body language and has been going on since the year dot.  You don't need a tickling stick, tambourine or speaking in tongues to train animals, just common sense, fairness and empathy.


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## suejs001 (1 September 2011)

Sorry I didn't realise it was 36 pages long i just saw the initial comments and posted a reply at the person who was ranting to begin with.  (I was searching for something came across pink / parelli and I felt the urge to reply!!!  

I have used the method on my 8 year old since he was a foal and I also use it on my yearling it has nothing to do with the horse or method it is down to how it is interpreted IMO


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## Enfys (1 September 2011)

suejs001 said:



			Why blame it on the horse - why blame it on Parelli - get over yourself have you ever thought it could have been YOU that was the problem! 
FGS the Parelli method is just fine if it is taught correctly as is every other method.... but everything is down to interpretation and rather than MOANING about said livery on here and the horse and Parelli you would be better speaking to the owner CONSTRUCTIVELY if that is at all possible.  Just because you don't do Parelli does not mean that it is not a good way to teach and train your horse.  Come play with my boy sometime anytime lets see what kind of horse woman you really are ... Mmmm Narrow Minded and biggoted perhaps????
		
Click to expand...

Are you talking about the original post?  Untwist your knickers lovely, you'll give yourself a headache too with all that bitchiness bubbling about in there  

Presumably you have read everything else too then, let me get something straight here, no I didn't beat the pony, OR leave it running around with a rope attached either, Okey dokey?

You aren't Sue James are you? From Carms?


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## DragonSlayer (1 September 2011)

suejs001 said:



			Sorry I didn't realise it was 36 pages long i just saw the initial comments and posted a reply at the person who was ranting to begin with.  (I was searching for something came across pink / parelli and I felt the urge to reply!!!  

I have used the method on my 8 year old since he was a foal and I also use it on my yearling it has nothing to do with the horse or method it is down to how it is interpreted IMO
		
Click to expand...

Ah, I see!

I too, have had dealings with Parelli, personally, I didn't rate it, and that wasn't just from seeing one horse......but perhaps thats because the human didn't know what they were doing, I don't know. 

But as I have also said, it is down to the individual horse and the owner. If it works for you, then thats great, and keep at it.

I call my handling of horses 'Herd Mentality'. No, it doesn't mean I boot them in the gut with metal shoes on just coz they stuck their nose in my feed bucket...! I believe it's all about being firm and consistent, and showing the horse that unfortunately, I'm top of the shop but I DO respect the fact they are a horse.



The result?

Well-mannered and pleasant animals to deal with, and the family are all safe if they all handle them.


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## suejs001 (1 September 2011)

I agree fat pig it is a mind-set last night I was helping with an un-handled wild brood mare - direct line thinking was not going to work she was terrified but using body language and empathy did ... I know how long parelli as a method takes and it takes a great deal of hard work time patience understanding and being prepared to look like an idiot and to be bullied by those who are not willing to let it be.  There are a lot of people who talk Parelli who practice who are not very good but is that not the same for any horse person???  just coz you can ride one horse does not mean you can ride!  My point is it isn't the horses fault, it isn't the methods fault - the method has proved itself to be sound - it is how that is interpreted and then put into effect.  I myself used to think it was just circus tricks until i had the need to venture down this route - i was very much a traditionalist but sometimes you have to do what you have to do.  It opens your eyes to see actually yes this stuff works.  

If my horse rears - it begs the question why is he rearing - If my horse bolts why does he bolt if he bit or kicked the same thing - horses don't do these things there is a reason and those that don't understand horse psychology should look into this before knocking natural horsemanship of any ilk.  

I don't go round bashing people up for using a gag / draw reins / as saddle that is too small / spurs / whip / riding too hard handed etc etc as the list is endless - just let people do what they want to do ...


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## Tinypony (1 September 2011)

Suejs001, why don't you wind your neck in for an hour, make yourself a coffee and sit and read the whole thread?
(I can't believe it's been resurrected yet again LOL!).

p.s.  I'm an ex Parelli student and yes, it does work fine when applied properly, but I do think it's a pretty harsh way to go about things.  People keep telling me things have changed.  Well, I was at a clinic last weekend where there was a lovely lady with her horse.  They are STILL teaching people to smack their horses around the face with the clip in the Yo Yo "game".  And it still hurts horses.  And there are still better and fairer ways to go about things.

Are you Sue James then??? )


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## suejs001 (1 September 2011)

As previously mentioned I did a search for a pink halter and came across this post I replied without realising it was 36 pages long.... I have read quite a bit of this now but not all and as previous I have said I am sorry for jumping in with two feet without realising that it was 36 pages.  

As for the comment about winding my neck in ... and other remarks, I do not apologise for the comments I made about blaming the horse or the method, this is just indicative of my experience.  

I have said my bit (a bit too hasty) and that is that ... I have nothing further to add or subtract on the subject and it looks like it has all been said both for and against and i believe we all have the right tho choose and not be criticised / made to feel an idiot  out of what we chose to do with our horses and keep our opinions to ourselves.  What I cannot stand and the reason I replied was that rather than ranting on here about the horse and its lack of manners and the parelli method - speak to the owner.  Dont blame the horse.  For all we know the person who owns the horse may say she does parelli but may do it really badly ?? how do we know??  There are two sides to everything.  Sue is a fairly common name! 

whilst you were at the clinic did you not ask the PP taking the clinic why they were using a phase 4 on the yo yo?  Anyway, enough said on the subject and each to there own!


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## Tinypony (1 September 2011)

Sorry for offending with the wind yer neck in comment, it wasn't meant as sharply as it came over when typed.  ;-)

It was not a Parelli clinic.  She had been having some lessons with one of the newer Parelli professionals currently on their list of UK instructors.  Fortunately I don't think she's going to be having any more.

I wouldn't have needed to ask her why she was using the Yo Yo, or why she was using phase 4.  I spent some years as a Parelli student and worked for them for a while, so I know the answer to that one.  It's a rough and ready way to get a horse to back up though.  I also puts in all sorts of braces you don't want on the ground or when you ride, it has them reversing in a state of tension with their neck on upside down.


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## fburton (1 September 2011)

Tinypony said:



			p.s.  I'm an ex Parelli student and yes, it does work fine when applied properly, but I do think it's a pretty harsh way to go about things.
		
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Was it applied properly by Pat when he roped and twitched Catwalk? Was it applied properly by Linda when she kept clunking and pulling at Barney's head? If those were examples of properly applied Parelli, then then _is_ something wrong with the method, in my opinion.




			People keep telling me things have changed.  Well, I was at a clinic last weekend where there was a lovely lady with her horse.  They are STILL teaching people to smack their horses around the face with the clip in the Yo Yo "game".
		
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That is _so_ depressing to hear. 




			And it still hurts horses.  And there are still better and fairer ways to go about things.
		
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It isn't necessary to hurt or bully horses to train them. When will this message be universally understood. Not in my lifetime, I suspect.


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## suejs001 (2 September 2011)

I do agree with the sentiment Tinypony I really do, perhaps I view parelli in a slightly more optimistic way trying to get a phase 1 move and never having to go to phase 4?  (especially on a back up) but that is not to say in the right circumstances I wouldn't condone the use of it such as horse goes Right Brain extrovert and needs a short sharp shock to listen again - I think this is better than everyone getting hurt horse and human - however surely this is the exception and not the norm?  In my limited parelli experience I have not seen many phase 4's of anything and I have an extreme Left brain extrovert cusp Right Brain Extrovert ... it is all down to body language with the intention of what you mean rather than the actual act??  Isn't that what they try to convey in the one suggest, two ask, don't make me pick up my stick, three ... im telling ya... 4 I promised I would ... (that sounds like my parents when I was a kid and I didn't need telling twice.  )  

I don't know about Parelli before I started, I don't know if they have sold out, all I know is that for me it has worked for my horse...  its not my issue whether people believe in parelli or not, I just get sick of the bullying that is associated with it when someone practices it - I saw PINK!! yesterday because these people don't have the courage to speak to the person and just say it all behind their backs etc etc I am obviously emotive about it because of personal experience.  I believe there are flaws with all methodology of training just by its very nature, you can only do what you think is best and right and everyone will take a slightly different slant on the original as with everything... its human nature.  Personally I would love to win the Euro millions tonight so I could afford to go and spend a year with KFH in Denmark with my two! How wonderful to be in a bubble for a whole year but at 87,000 its a bit out of my reach for the mo! 

Anyway on that cheery note I will get on with some work!


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## Dancing Queen (2 September 2011)

I dont know that much about Parelli - but I do know common sense. I have been around horses for long enough to produce well mannered horses without the need for fancy tools - just respect for the horse, calm and patient manner and common sense.

Is the wheel is still round ?


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## suejs001 (2 September 2011)

I don't think it is just horses that are bullied ... I certainly wouldn't say that I bully my horse with the use of the parelli method - if I bullied him he would soon let me know I can assure you!  I give him choice and respect to have a 'conversation' with me.  
Its a debate as is religion and politics .. however whether you believe it or not, the fact of the matter is that people bully other ppl who practice Parelli end of.  No one can argue with that and this thread proves that I think the title says it all ... it is classing all 'parelli-ites' as pink and fluffy and insinuating that we should not have horses??? That is my interpretation but yet again mmmm was it me sorting out a wild mare last night with calm compassion and respect for her and her foal without putting pressure on her and giving her the choice to do the right thing???  I believe parelli gave me the platform to understand horse psychology better ... and I thank them for that.  

What ever the argument and debate will continue and you, and only you can know in your own heart if you do the right thing by your horse or not...  As Pat Parelli says you take the halter off you know the truth... no strings nothing ... if your horse chooses to stay with you he chooses to stay with you.  

Best wishes everyone and apologies again for stirring up the hornets nest...


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## suejs001 (2 September 2011)

At my last yard I was bullied and to the point that some kind person stabbed my green ball 4 times with a knife just to make sure I was unable to re-pair it and my experience of this type of behavior over the years has left me a little 'sour' of those who kick off about people who practice this training method...sigh


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## Golf Girl (2 September 2011)

suejs001 said:



			At my last yard I was bullied and to the point that some kind person stabbed my green ball 4 times with a knife just to make sure I was unable to re-pair it and my experience of this type of behavior over the years has left me a little 'sour' of those who kick off about people who practice this training method...sigh 

Click to expand...

Unbelievable! I guess that is indicative of the mentality of the typical 'Parelli hater' ....


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## fburton (2 September 2011)

suejs001 said:



			At my last yard I was bullied and to the point that some kind person stabbed my green ball 4 times with a knife just to make sure I was unable to re-pair it and my experience of this type of behavior over the years has left me a little 'sour' of those who kick off about people who practice this training method...sigh 

Click to expand...

No one should be subjected to such nasty treatment. That it happened merely because you were into Parelli is truly appalling. 

However, please don't assume that everyone who dislikes aspects of PNH and the Parelli machine, even as strongly as I do, also hates those who practice it. I know several 'Parelli people' who I like and respect. The fact you disagrees with someone else's views shouldn't be a barrier to friendship. I might seek to change people's views through argument and/or by showing alternative approaches, but that's quite normal, isn't it? I wouldn't _dream_ of doing anything as petty and vindictive as what you described.


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## suejs001 (2 September 2011)

Thank you fburton I believe in health debate! and I firmly believe that you never stop learning ... I think its nice when friends can support each other despite the different opinions! )


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## DragonSlayer (2 September 2011)

Golf Girl said:



			Unbelievable! I guess that is indicative of the mentality of the typical 'Parelli hater' ....
		
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A bit of a generalising statement, don't you think?

I'm not a fan of Parelli, but it doesn't make me a knife-wielding maniac. The person who stabbed the ball has no doubt....other problems, to make them as vicious as that.


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## Miss L Toe (11 September 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			I am now going out on my barefoot, Parelli trained chestnut mare, which I will ride at all paces in a headcollar and lead rope. We will be covering about ten miles this morning, moorland, lanes, tracks and quite a lot of road work.

Parelli people don't ride their horses, rubbish.
		
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Be careful of this, it might invalidate your insurance, as it could be considered that you need a saddle and bridle to be "in control", not me, just insurance perception.
I think the "non riding" referred to the fact that many people spend such a lot of time on ground work that they forget the idea was to ride, not to spend ages learning a training technique. I think there are enough examples of "parelli abuse", if one wants to call it that, to put people off this particular system.
From my experience, with youngsters one has to be quick to sort out any "challenge", I spent ages with my [one and only foal] after I managed to get hold of it [six months old!], and it only "had a go" at me twice, the first time I was surprised, it tried the same trick the next day [a wee rear and a flash of teeth], got a skelp on the neck with the rope [no carrot stick involved], and never tried again.


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## amandap (11 September 2011)

fburton said:



No one should be subjected to such nasty treatment. That it happened merely because you were into Parelli is truly appalling. 

However, please don't assume that everyone who dislikes aspects of PNH and the Parelli machine, even as strongly as I do, also hates those who practice it.
		
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Disgraceful behaviour but reflects in action what I have observed verbally and in writing by the more zealous of the anti NH lot. Hating the person may not be said to be in the agenda but dismissing, and insulting definitely is... 

A general (certainly not applied to fburton) observation that has prompted me to post when I decided to keep off these threads on horse behaviour and training... I find it interesting that trashing an object arouses such emotion when trashing a person or their confidence by derision and insult is accepted or even applauded.  Go figure us humans, I can't, no wonder horses have problems with us.


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## Tinypony (11 September 2011)

Oh Mrs D, that invalidating insurance thing has been done many times before.  There are plenty of insurance companies that insure people to ride bitless, and long debates have been had about "what is a bridle"?  Anyone with any worries can insure themselves with The Good Horsemanship Society (cringe at the name...) and be certain.
Fburton...  I think that Linda "clunking" with the clip is Parelli applied as they teach it because it's on a level 1 instructional DVD.  Until the Parellis issue some sort of retraction of the phase 1-4 in the Yo Yo "game" then that's how it's done.  
I think in the Catwalk incident Pat completely lost his marbles!  Why he didn't at leasst use some sensible approach and retreate (probably would have been called Friendly Game with bridle) to deal with Catwalk, why he weighed in with his ropes and gumline so quickly is anybody's guess.  We can only speculate about how much easier the horse might have appeared if he hadn't backed Catwalk into a corner so quickly.


"Unbelievable! I guess that is indicative of the mentality of the typical 'Parelli hater' .... "

Golfgirl, I think that's an incredibly daft statement.


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## Tinypony (11 September 2011)

suejs001 said:



			I do agree with the sentiment Tinypony I really do, perhaps I view parelli in a slightly more optimistic way trying to get a phase 1 move and never having to go to phase 4?  (especially on a back up) but that is not to say in the right circumstances I wouldn't condone the use of it such as horse goes Right Brain extrovert and needs a short sharp shock to listen again - I think this is better than everyone getting hurt horse and human - however surely this is the exception and not the norm?  In my limited parelli experience I have not seen many phase 4's of anything and I have an extreme Left brain extrovert cusp Right Brain Extrovert ... it is all down to body language with the intention of what you mean rather than the actual act??  Isn't that what they try to convey in the one suggest, two ask, don't make me pick up my stick, three ... im telling ya... 4 I promised I would ... (that sounds like my parents when I was a kid and I didn't need telling twice.  )
		
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I think the RBE, LBI etc is a handy marketing gimmick that enabled Parelli to sell a load more stuff.  Read the horse in front of you, they change all the time.  Nobody should need to do a chart to work out if a horse has a tendency to shut down a bit, or leap around, or like playing... whatever... and bear it in mind when working with them.  I worry about applying labels to the horse because I think it makes people slow to recognise when the horse is out of that box.

I think intent is very important, but the act is just as important.  So for example if I was to do something that caused a metal clip to smack my horse on the jaw, it doesn't matter what intent or emotion I was trying to project, it hurts the horse a lot and it's wrong.  Sue, your description is how I was taught and how many other Parelli students are still taught to feel that this way of dealing with horses is OK. In other words - We've given them fair warning and they've ignored our intent so the "phase 4" is fair and they understand it.  They understand alright, but it's just not necessary.  I put my hand up to what I have done in the past, thinking it was fair, but once I'd seen better trainers in action I realised how unfair I'd been on my horses.  And that was that.

Oh, I've got Parelli friends as well, we don't hate each other, we agree to differ.


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## Golf Girl (11 September 2011)

Tinypony said:



			"Unbelievable! I guess that is indicative of the mentality of the typical 'Parelli hater' .... "

Golfgirl, I think that's an incredibly daft statement.
		
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I think you misunderstand me TP. I am not saying that everyone who does not endorse Parelli and his methods is like that. What I am suggesting is that the typical 'hater' is - do you see the difference?


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## Scheherezade (11 September 2011)

QR

I just don't see the point in it, simple as. My horse is very much a people person - we got him as a 2 year old and he LOVES humans, is always fussing for attention. However he knows "no" "back up" "over" "turn around" and "stand" voice commands. I used to ride him to and from the field bareback in a headcollar with two leadropes attached to either side. When he's out of work he's not shod. This is the same way I treat all my horses - just common horsey sense. My YO is extremely old fashioned, hunting type - if anyone is caught hitting or physically punishing the horses they are thrown off the yard. He 'talks' to them when in the stable, so he now has 18hh £100K horses who understand "excuse me" and are very gentle - a bonus as I am 4 weeks away from giving birth, and would never risk getting pushed about.

WTF is the point in spending hundreds of pounds on ropes and DVDs - when simply treating horses how they should be - common sense and understanding, gets a better result?!


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## team barney (11 September 2011)

Scheherezade said:



			QR

I just don't see the point in it, simple as. My horse is very much a people person - we got him as a 2 year old and he LOVES humans, is always fussing for attention. However he knows "no" "back up" "over" "turn around" and "stand" voice commands. I used to ride him to and from the field bareback in a headcollar with two leadropes attached to either side. When he's out of work he's not shod. This is the same way I treat all my horses - just common horsey sense. My YO is extremely old fashioned, hunting type - if anyone is caught hitting or physically punishing the horses they are thrown off the yard. He 'talks' to them when in the stable, so he now has 18hh £100K horses who understand "excuse me" and are very gentle - a bonus as I am 4 weeks away from giving birth, and would never risk getting pushed about.

WTF is the point in spending hundreds of pounds on ropes and DVDs - when simply treating horses how they should be - common sense and understanding, gets a better result?!
		
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Excellent post, your YO's method also sounds kind unlike Parelli (Parelli utilises physical punishment despite their claims to the contrary, they just name it "levels" instead)

I use the "excuse me" on my boys too, it works very well when I ask them to move over     I also ask them to "be polite" or "be a gentleman" when they get too excitable, they understand some unusual requests!  I talk to my boys virtually non stop, I am sure a non-horsey people would think me mad if the overhead me nattering away  

Understand horses is the key, not understand well marketed regimes.


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## fburton (11 September 2011)

Golf Girl said:



			I think you misunderstand me TP. I am not saying that everyone who does not endorse Parelli and his methods is like that. What I am suggesting is that the typical 'hater' is - do you see the difference?
		
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Are there many 'typical Parelli haters' on this board, and are you really suggesting that they would bully someone who did Parelli to the extent of vindictively destroying something that belonged to them and represented their enthusiasm and joy for the system of horsemanship which they followed? I don't think you are - and I imagine that what TP is getting at.


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## team barney (11 September 2011)

fburton said:



			Are there many 'typical Parelli haters' on this board, and are you really suggesting that they would bully someone who did Parelli to the extent of vindictively destroying something that belonged to them and represented their enthusiasm and joy for the system of horsemanship which they followed? I don't think you are - and I imagine that what TP is getting at.
		
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I suspect I am classed as one of those "typical Parelli haters", but I can assure you that I would never dream of damaging anyones property.  I will have a reasoned debate with anyone willing to engage in one, I will express my opinions on Parelli but I would never damage someones carrot stick and more than I'd damage someones draw reins, I hate both gadgets but unless they were mine to destroy I wouldn't touch them.  I don't borrow anyones tack, equipment of horses unless I have specifically asked permission, and I don't expect anyone to use my stuff.  Sadly it does happen, I have had equipment stolen (once off of my horse's back), I have had my gear used and damaged, I have had stuff mysteriously (most likely deliberately) broken, but I don't practise Parelli.  What I am trying to say is people are destructive bullies regardless of your equine faith.


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## amandap (11 September 2011)

fburton said:



			Are there many 'typical Parelli haters' on this board, and are you really suggesting that they would bully someone who did Parelli to the extent of vindictively destroying something that belonged to them and represented their enthusiasm and joy for the system of horsemanship which they followed? I don't think you are - and I imagine that what TP is getting at.
		
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Surely this applies to insulting, horrid, derogatory comments (of which I have read many on various boards) about a person that represents your joy and enthusiasm for horsemanship? 
This is one aspect of these threads when they get nasty that has always perplexed me...


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## fburton (11 September 2011)

amandap said:



			Surely this applies to insulting, horrid, derogatory comments (of which I have read many on various boards) about a person that represents your joy and enthusiasm for horsemanship? 
This is one aspect of these threads when they get nasty that has always perplexed me...
		
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Yes, I see your point Amandap. Is it possible to criticize a religion (or religion itself) without blaspheming against the Singular Being or reviling the official conductors of its rites? Can it be done in a way that isn't rude or cruel or insulting to its followers? Okay, I'm not really saying Parelli is a religion (though some might try to claim that!) - I'm searching for an analogy that might be helpful to define what is acceptable or not in the way of criticism. Sticking to discussing "what" rather than "who", scrupulously avoiding _ad hominem_ remarks - that has to be okay, I think - even if there is almost always _someone_ doing the "what" which you dislike and are arguing against. Hating an act or idea doesn't mean you hate the person who does or has it.


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## fburton (11 September 2011)

Just wanted to add... Some respect for context is appropriate too. For example, in my opinion it would be rude and possibly hurtful to launch into a criticism of PNH in a thread which was started with the clear intention of Parelli people celebrating something they had done, or an event they had attended. Also, I wouldn't boo loudly or badmouth methods at a Parelli convention (though I might walk out of a demo if it was horrid to watch).


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## amandap (11 September 2011)

fburton said:



			Yes, I see your point Amandap. Is it possible to criticize a religion (or religion itself) without blaspheming against the Singular Being or reviling the official conductors of its rites? Can it be done in a way that isn't rude or cruel or insulting to its followers? Okay, I'm not really saying Parelli is a religion (though some might try to claim that!) - I'm searching for an analogy that might be helpful to define what is acceptable or not in the way of criticism. Sticking to discussing "what" rather than "who", scrupulously avoiding _ad hominem_ remarks - that has to be okay, I think - even if there is almost always _someone_ doing the "what" which you dislike and are arguing against. Hating an act or idea doesn't mean you hate the person who does or has it.
		
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I lost my post. lol

I do believe it is possible to criticize a belief/religion/method without reviling the 'leaders' or those who subscribe to similar thinking. Revile to me means criticize in an abusive and insulting manner.
Of course the 'followers' may see any criticism this way but generally I believe people see criticism as just that and insult and contempt within or disguised as criticism, differently. Perhaps I'm wrong but I definitely do not believe reviling is a necessary or integral part of disagreement or criticism. 

To me reviling implies contempt and mockery and involves a lot of hatred, anger and frustration similar emotions that no doubt prompted the slashing of the ball...

I don't think a method can be discussed in this context without discussing the  'who'.
Saying, for example, someone is 'putting too much pressure on'  or shouldn't hit is a bit different to saying someone is a bully or a cruel idiot etc. etc.
I don't know if this example is any help in making my feeling/thinking clearer but along with using words like idiot and bully comes the implication that anyone subscribing to this is also thought of as a bully and idiot. 
It could be argued it's the readers/hearers perception that is the problem and I do agree perception can be a big problem in discussions.

I certainly do not believe we shouldn't question and criticize or that we should believe what we are told without question and careful thought but I do believe we can question, criticize and disagree without being intentionally or unthinkingly hurtful.

Being nasty and insulting also makes people switch off and polarizes people making discussion difficult if not impossible. 

Anyway, I've babbled enough the only difference to me is doing the actual act and thankfully I'm physically safe and secure behind my keyboard... my feelings are ok too now.


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## Tinypony (11 September 2011)

fburton said:



			Are there many 'typical Parelli haters' on this board, and are you really suggesting that they would bully someone who did Parelli to the extent of vindictively destroying something that belonged to them and represented their enthusiasm and joy for the system of horsemanship which they followed? I don't think you are - and I imagine that what TP is getting at.
		
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Yes, it was, thanks Fburton.  The context being that Golfgirl said that someone damaging the poster's property was a "typical Parell hater" and I think that's probably not the case.  Teambarney has confirmed that she wouldn't dream of destroying a Parelli Person's Poperty.  (Note the thoughtful use of 3 P's...).


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## team barney (11 September 2011)

Tinypony said:



			Teambarney has confirmed that she wouldn't dream of destroying a Parelli Person's Poperty.  (Note the thoughtful use of 3 P's...).





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Perhaps I am being extremely dense but I don't understand this ^^^ does 3 P's mean something?  If it does I am completely lost...

p.s I wouldn't dream of destroy anyones property, so it isn't only Parelli practitioners who are safe to leave their gear in my sight


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## Tinypony (11 September 2011)

Parelli folk like P's Teambarney (how did you manage to miss this?)... you'll particularly like this one:
"Punishment doesn't work for Prey animals, a Programme of Prevention does".

However, top marks must surely go to:

"Pat Parelli 45 P's

Pat Parelli Proudly Presents his Provocative Programs and the Proclamation that Prior and Proper Preparation Prevents P-Poor Performance, Particularly if Polite and Passive Persistence is Practised in the Proper Position.  This Perspective is Patience from Process to Product, Principle to Purpose.  The Promise that Pat Plans to Prove is that Practice does not make Perfect, only Perfect Practice makes Perfect and, it is Peculiar how Prey animals Percieve People as Predators."

Copyright ParelliNaturalHorsemanship, inc.


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