# So-called "Rescue sites" Charity comes out AGAINST!!!



## JM07 (2 July 2009)

WELL SAID.....

http://www.horsemart.co.uk/news/the_horse_trust_criticises_rescue_of_foreign_slaughter_horses_/484


----------



## MurphysMinder (2 July 2009)

Here, here (have replied in NL).


----------



## Gonetofrance (2 July 2009)

Let's hope that note is taken of it ........


----------



## Amymay (2 July 2009)

It's interesting that this is comming on the back of the latest  DEFRA directive too.


----------



## M_G (2 July 2009)

I was about to post the same thing


----------



## Rollin (2 July 2009)

Where are the horses for loan?  

A contact on another forum has been looking without success for months.  She is knowledgeable and experienced based in East Anglia and is not picky 14.2hh-16.2hh young or old riding horse who is good in traffic.

I did a survey of UK rescue sites three months ago and did not find many riding horses available.  I purchased my second horse several years ago because ILPH had a waiting list.

Perhaps there should be a UK Rescue and Rehoming websit.


----------



## JM07 (2 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]

Perhaps there should be a UK Rescue and Rehoming websit. 

[/ QUOTE ]

there is...

its called .....

THE BLUE CROSS
WHW
REDWINGS
HORSETRUST
HORSEWORLD
HAPPA
TRALLWM FARM
EMW.......


take your pick......at least these KNOW what they're doing.


----------



## Rollin (2 July 2009)

The problem is that there is no one site for people searching to rehome.

There are plenty of companion animals or horses who are unsuitable for novice riders.  People who are looking for sensible riding horses spend a lot of time combing through different rescue sites and sale sites.

Hence my suggestion.


----------



## Happy Horse (2 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
The problem is that there is no one site for people searching to rehome.

There are plenty of companion animals or horses who are unsuitable for novice riders.  People who are looking for sensible riding horses spend a lot of time combing through different rescue sites and sale sites.

Hence my suggestion. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably because not many sensible riding horses end up needing 'rescuing'.  It is generally horses with problems or that have suffered from neglect and possibly psychological issues.  Rehoming a rescue should not be looked at as a cheap way to end up with the perfect horse.


----------



## competitiondiva (3 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Perhaps there should be a UK Rescue and Rehoming websit. 

[/ QUOTE ]

there is...

its called .....

THE BLUE CROSS
WHW
REDWINGS
HORSETRUST
HORSEWORLD
HAPPA
TRALLWM FARM
EMW.......


take your pick......at least these KNOW what they're doing. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't forget RSPCA, 
http://www.rspca.org.uk/servlet/Satellit...d=1236788796418
I was only looking through their website of horses/ponies for adoption the other day and was struck by the increased amount of them!

As it has already been said the 'sain' riding horses don't often end up needing rescuing and those that do by the time they've been badly treated and are then rescued are no longer 'sain'!


----------



## Rollin (3 July 2009)

The argument from the UK charities is that people looking to rescue a horse should do so in the UK.  You are all agreeing that there are not many riding horses available from UK charities?

Plenty of good horses go for slaughter in France, which is why these charities attract customers from the UK looking for a cheap horse.

Infection Risks

Any horse imported to the UK from France (not just rescues)under the tripartate agreement presents a possible risk to British horses.  The French National Stud only requires horses going to stud to be tested for CEM and not EVA even for natural covering.  One on my mares contracted EVA while at stud in France.  She was in a field next to a horse imported from Romania.

A year ago Normandy had a major outbreak of EVA.


----------



## BankEndRescue (3 July 2009)

Let me put one thing straight here.  This mare is not being funded by Bank End, the money that I was donating is my owm personal money, nothing to do with Bank End.  The rest was being raised by other individuals and should that target not be met then all money donated thus far will be returned.

I would never consider traveling a horse in such poor condition and if we do proceed then she will be liveried at a yard that I pesonally will be checking out for suitability.  Vet checks and bloods will be done before and decision for her to travel is made.  I am perfectly aware of the risks involved in importing an equine from France and I won't for one moment risk any infection.

I have always maintained that I only had an issue with unfit horses being sold/traveled, long, unregulated journey times and no vet checks being done.  Where people spend their money has nothing to do with any one else and who's to tell them how it can be spent?

As for the allegations that I am making a profit through Bank End, I suggest that you do your homework.  I don't take one penny from Bnk End funds, I have in fact spent the last 2 years funding things myself.  Yes, we have to charge people who no longer want to keep their horses, how else would you suggest we fund things?  For example, a dutch warmblood mare with a knee fracture came in, we DIDN'T as it happens charge that owner but have you any idea how much it cost us to nurse that horse to fitness?  Probably not but it was a lot!

In one breath owners are condemned for placing their retirees in my care without funding them, then in the next I'm accused of profiteering because we expect a donation to be made.  We don't turn away horses that are needy, donations or not.

Mrs M, I said on 2 occassions that I was happy to help you with your pony but each time you said it was all in hand.  I hope that you DO get his situation sorted out, but remember, YOU contacted me.

Also, before I'm accused of taking in more horses when I "haven't got room" as you seem to think....how do you know how many horses I have rehomed lately?  How do you know if I have more land than the 30 acres I had 6 months ago?

Gonetofrance et al will tear anything I say to shreds but I rather hoped that the rest of you could think for yourselves.

I won't get into further debate on this, my phone number is public, I'm sure you know how to find it, Finnishlapphund will direct you to it, she's spending boringly long amounts of time browsing my website


----------



## Gonetofrance (3 July 2009)

A huge proportion of these horses from the rescue sites are unrideable also. What they say on the sites is very often at odds with the reality of the situation. 

Have you followed the progress of these horses once in the UK, rollin? Very very few of these 'rescues' end up in safe homes. Some are dead, some will be soon, and loads have been sold on in an already overloaded UK market. 

We have followed the situation very closely, which is what prompted us to act, and is why the major welfare associations are against the practice. 

As regards this TB mare, the UK has some fantastic rehoming charities for ex-racehorses, with the animals assessed and rehabbed before going to new homes. 

Surely that is a more sensible choice than buying an obviously injured, unfit and possibly unrideable mare....... and putting her through the journey back to the UK. 

She will be costing well over £1000 to get her to the UK. That money would be far better spent supporting Greatwood, Moorcroft, ROR, HEROS, TRC or an equivalent charity........ not lining the pockets of French dealing sites.


----------



## M_G (3 July 2009)

So Toni who will be paying for the general up keep of the mare? I bet that will fall to BER donations which on the whole are given to help UK equines


----------



## M_G (3 July 2009)

Its nice to hear you have more room


----------



## TGM (3 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
 You are all agreeing that there are not many riding horses available from UK charities? 

[/ QUOTE ] Actually most people were saying that it is hard to find 'perfect' riding horses through UK charities, although not impossible as you can see from the letter in Horse &amp; Hound this week about a fabulous PC pony acquired through the WHW.

However, many of the riding horses/ponies available through UK charities will have some sort of 'if', such as this chap:

http://www.bluecross.org.uk/web/site/Ado...ation=&amp;pg=4

who is only suitable as a hack due to a stifle problem.

The thing is, the UK charities carefully assess their animals and are honest about their problems, so they end up in the most suitable homes.  The French horses are also likely  to have 'ifs' and problems, but you only find out what they are after you get them home!


----------



## TGM (3 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
The problem is that there is no one site for people searching to rehome.

There are plenty of companion animals or horses who are unsuitable for novice riders.  People who are looking for sensible riding horses spend a lot of time combing through different rescue sites and sale sites.

Hence my suggestion. 

[/ QUOTE ]

That is a good idea, as long as all partners in the site are reputable equine charities who have a policy of carefully assessing all animals and ensuring homes are suitable.  Perhaps you could write to the charities that JM7 has listed and suggest they consider liaising with each other to create a central web database of horses requiring rehoming?


----------



## SirenaXVI (3 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The problem is that there is no one site for people searching to rehome.

There are plenty of companion animals or horses who are unsuitable for novice riders.  People who are looking for sensible riding horses spend a lot of time combing through different rescue sites and sale sites.

Hence my suggestion. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably because not many sensible riding horses end up needing 'rescuing'.  It is generally horses with problems or that have suffered from neglect and possibly psychological issues.  Rehoming a rescue should not be looked at as a cheap way to end up with the perfect horse. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Round of applause Happy Horse - nail on head!


----------



## Gonetofrance (3 July 2009)

As a genuine welfare asso in France, ERF do NOT take a rehoming fee from the donating owner.


----------



## FinnishLapphund (3 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
 (Erased a lot of text, so that my reply wouldn't take up so much space.) 

Gonetofrance et al will tear anything I say to shreds but I rather hoped that the rest of you could think for yourselves.

I won't get into further debate on this, my phone number is public, I'm sure you know how to find it,* Finnishlapphund will direct you to it, she's spending boringly long amounts of time browsing my website * 

[/ QUOTE ]






 There can't be much happening on your website if you thinks I spend much time browsing it! 

Let me see, I have currently oops  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 , 54 tabs open with different internet pages, one is BER's, another one is f.ex. about the Bombina frogs. 
I have read through some of BER's pages once, other than that I presume it is only one page that refreshes itself when I start up my internet window each morning? Although there was one day when I did press the updating-button myself a few times but does it count as browsing if I'm still on the same page? 











Hm, I thought I went through my number of open tabs recently and closed a whole lot of them hm 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 , the problem with BER's site is that I don't really want it amongst my bookmarks...


----------



## spaniel (3 July 2009)

FL.....54 tabs????????  How the heck?????? 
	
	
		
		
	


	





Spring cleaning woman!!!!!!


----------



## Flame_ (3 July 2009)

I think fair play for asking for a donation from people acquiring horses re-homed by you, I have always thought this to be standard practice. Not sure about asking people donating a horse for money, but since you are, in effect providing a service by taking on their responsibility, I don't have a problem with this if it goes towards your running costs.

I'm still not sure what it is that's made you decide rescuing French horses is now the way forward. You used to seem quite sensible.  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 Especially while reputable charities are publicly stating why they disapprove of it. 

Oh well, I'm glad the powers that be are doing what they can to help protect our UK horses from infections.


----------



## FinnishLapphund (3 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
The argument from the UK charities is that people looking to rescue a horse should do so in the UK.  You are all agreeing that there are not many riding horses available from UK charities?

Plenty of good horses go for slaughter in France, which is why these charities attract customers from the UK looking for a cheap horse.

Infection Risks

Any horse imported to the UK from France (not just rescues)under the tripartate agreement presents a possible risk to British horses. * The French National Stud only requires horses going to stud to be tested for CEM and not EVA even for natural covering.  One on my mares contracted EVA while at stud in France.  She was in a field next to a horse imported from Romania.

A year ago Normandy had a major outbreak of EVA. * 

[/ QUOTE ]

I only have a vague memory about reading about the risks with EVA and horse breeding in Swedish Ridsport a few years ago, since I'm not involved in breeding I didn't think it would be any information I would need to know so I'm sorry in advance if my memory is wrong, but as far as I recall, in general if your horse gets EVA it only causes problems for you, your horse and any future breeding plans that you have for your horse. If your horse does get EVA, I don't think there is any risk that a government official comes and tells you, that your horse and (possibly) other horses on "your" yard that it has had contact with, must be euthanized?   

If I'm correct, then though I understand that it causes problems, I don't think it is quite the same. 

To make that analogy, if I get a sexual transmittable disease on my vacation, it makes a lot of difference if it is HIV or something else. Regardless of what (some) other people seem to think today, I still think of HIV as a deadly disease since there is no cure and if you want to survive you need to take x amount of pills on a daily basis, other such diseases can cause f.ex. infertility and although that can be heartbreaking for some, it isn't deadly.


----------



## FinnishLapphund (3 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
FL.....54 tabs????????  How the heck?????? 
	
	
		
		
	


	





Spring cleaning woman!!!!!! 

[/ QUOTE ]


I know, I know 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 , I could hardly believe it myself when I counted them earlier 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 .


But I swear I recently did go through them and closed almost half of the ones I had then, I thought I had managed to get them down to around 20 or so but I didn't count them and I now realise I must have had 30-something left *sigh*. Just checked, 10 tabs seems to involve smileys somehow...


----------



## suestowford (3 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The problem is that there is no one site for people searching to rehome.

There are plenty of companion animals or horses who are unsuitable for novice riders.  People who are looking for sensible riding horses spend a lot of time combing through different rescue sites and sale sites.

Hence my suggestion. 

[/ QUOTE ]

That is a good idea, as long as all partners in the site are reputable equine charities who have a policy of carefully assessing all animals and ensuring homes are suitable.  Perhaps you could write to the charities that JM7 has listed and suggest they consider liaising with each other to create a central web database of horses requiring rehoming? 

[/ QUOTE ]

A central database is a sound idea but I wonder how it would fit in with the smaller charites, such as the Mare &amp; Foal Sanctuary. They will only rehome within their own area; this is because they want to be able to keep an eye on their loaned out ponies, without having to travel across the country to do it.
Maybe a central database could have area links, so that people could find their local rescue easily?


----------



## Amymay (3 July 2009)

And then of course there are the markets, some of which are well known for the meat man and low end dealers generally.

Easy to pick up something there in need of help, for no money at all.


----------



## spaniel (3 July 2009)

I have been thinking about this all morning JS and to be honest any site set up to collate all these different organisisations is going to run into problems in the end.

How will a host be able to vet these charities?  Do you stick with the big names or start to include the smaller more regional ones?  How do you know these charities arent a front for other dealing?


Can you see where this is going.


----------



## Natch (3 July 2009)

Beeston auction this wednesday was a pefect example.

£40-60 would get you one of several native type ponies, shaggy coated and ungroomed but otherwise appearing  healthy. Or perhaps you'd prefer a donkey?

£120 would have got you a 15.2hh TB type, looking poor but tacked up and available to be tried ridden.

£400 would have got you a really nice looking welsh C/D with change to spare...

Only 1 or 2 horses went for over £1k, not more than £1600, all in that bracket were riding horses of some description.

i'd I'd have been buying I would have come home with one of two gorgeously marked and nicely moving coloured cob 3 year olds, approx 14.2- 15hh @ £450 each...

All having the advantage that you can see them there to assess &amp; try them, some of the "more expensive" coming with warranties. Take a vet or knowledgeable friend with you and you could come home with some very nice horses &amp; ponies at bargain basement prices.


----------



## Amymay (3 July 2009)

BER herself picked up the most wonderful Hunter a few months ago for some ridiculous amount (£750, possibly lower) at one of the sales.   Dumped at the sale by the owner - with no interest in where the horse ended up.......  Luckily for him he did not end up with the meat man.


----------



## JM07 (3 July 2009)

i buy these types ALL the time...

its really sad..


----------



## flowerlady (3 July 2009)

When down on Exmoor a few weeks ago, when the Golden Horse Shoe was on.  I went to the Exmoor pony Centre.  A lot of these are sent to slaughter or to zoos and they are a UK pony they are weight carriers well upto about 12 stone apparently.  I would rather support them. They do put ponies into homes but vet them and you very carefully.  If we lose the Exmoor Ponies then that would be such a disaster in my opinion.  As they are just a few pounds when rounded up off Exmoor and sold at market


----------



## Amymay (3 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
i buy these types ALL the time...

its really sad.. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, what was your recent 'haul' JM - and what of their futures now???


----------



## Amymay (3 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
If we lose the Exmoor Ponies then that would be such a disaster in my opinion.   

[/ QUOTE ] 

Didn't Countryfile do a piece on Exmoor's last Sunday??


----------



## JM07 (3 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i buy these types ALL the time...

its really sad.. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, what was your recent 'haul' JM - and what of their futures now??? 

[/ QUOTE ]

3 "meat-chain" ponies...

1 has a new home already!


----------



## spaniel (3 July 2009)

It was just a snippet but yes they did.   

As a child I remember both Exmoor and Dartmoor babies being sold for a pound or given away.  Many of us ended up with cracking ponies that would hunt all day,  gymkana,  jump and play pony club.  

Sadly a lot of the breeding is now dilute but as JM will testify the NF is producing some real quality animals and these are real bargains in the grand scheme of things and certainly shouldnt be dismissed purely as ',meat animals' just because they are a  bit wormy and hairy.  I know a lot are produced purely for slaughter but for those who really do want a bargain and have a good eye (this really is the key) then there are some very nice animals going through the rings.


----------



## bellissimo (3 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i buy these types ALL the time...

its really sad.. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, what was your recent 'haul' JM - and what of their futures now??? 

[/ QUOTE ]

3 "meat-chain" ponies...

1 has a new home already!






[/ QUOTE ]

That's good
I purchased two 'meat' comtois earlier this year via one of the rescue sites and everything went fine and they are fit, healthy and delightful.
I fully understand people's concerns with regard to possible health/disease problems and also I know there are an abundance of equines in the UK that need re-homing/care.
Is it not all down to personal choice though?  It is not just the same as donating to a charity - why do some people give to some and not to others?


----------



## Rollin (3 July 2009)

Yes GTF I have followed progress of several horses. Yes I am aware of at least one horse which collapsed in transit and another who foaled on a lorry.  I also know of good outcomes.

You may also have seen my highly critical reports on this forum on horse transport generally.  I have pedigree horses shipped by DEFRA approved transporters who arrived dehydrated and looking like toast racks.  Lots of people have responded who have had similar experiences.  I am now VERY prescriptive before I let anyone ship a horse for me.

Horses in poor condition may not be able to cope with a journey to the UK - I don't disagree with that.

When this whole debate kicked off earlier this year I spoke to everyone I could.  People who had rescue horses, transporters, WHW and the Proprieter of one charity.

I wrote a comprehensive report which I sent to WHW and I wrote to DEFRA expressing my concerns, which are somewhat different to those being expressed on this board.

If the Rescue charities are (so called) i.e. deliberately posting misleading information and using monies in an inappropriate way a formal complaint should be made to the Charities Commission.


----------



## SirenaXVI (3 July 2009)

I knew about the one who callapsed and died, but did not realise that one mare actually FOALED
	
	
		
		
	


	




 did they not realise she was close to foaling?


----------



## Rollin (3 July 2009)

Dear Bank End I don't understand your post.  What mare?  Was this on another thread?


----------



## Amymay (3 July 2009)

Hi Bellisimo,

What prompted you to purchase two comtois?  Were you specifically after a heavier type of breed?


----------



## SirenaXVI (3 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
Dear Bank End I don't understand your post.  What mare?  Was this on another thread? 

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the mare in question Rollin

http://www.bankendequinerescue.com/destinedforslaughter.htm


----------



## Gonetofrance (3 July 2009)

I'm not sure which rescue 'charities' you refer to? 

The internet sites dealing the 'rescue' horses are not registered charities, so there is little or no point reporting them to the Charities Commission? 
	
	
		
		
	


	





Having seen in the flesh a fair proportion of the horses being shipped in the name of rescue, I can assure you that not one of them was as described on the sites. 

I'm sorry, but I don't follow what you're saying. Are you supporting the practices of these sites, or disagreeing with them?


----------



## Amymay (3 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
 I wrote to DEFRA expressing my concerns, which are somewhat different to those being expressed on this board 

[/ QUOTE ] 

Ah, interesting.  What, specifically, are your concerns?


----------



## SirenaXVI (3 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
 [ QUOTE ]
 I wrote to DEFRA expressing my concerns, which are somewhat different to those being expressed on this board 

[/ QUOTE ] 

Ah, interesting.  What, specifically, are your concerns? 

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahh beat me to it Amymay, was just going to ask the very same question?  Would like to know how they differ from ours.


----------



## bellissimo (3 July 2009)

To be honest no I wasn't and I wasn't looking for a youngster either.  I had been looking for a cob type for general hacking and also company for a pony I have adopted who has been on his own for some time.
I guess the questions that will follow are; was my decision an emotional one, did I know what I was doing, do I feel I paid too much, etc, etc.
I would say that it wasn't a decision taken lightly and yes it was slightly emotional but I am absolutely delighted with them.  They are fit, healthy, a lovely temperament, just what we wanted!
I have land, stables, time and experience and this was my chosen route for purchasing a horse.


----------



## Amymay (3 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
They are fit, healthy, a lovely temperament, just what we wanted  

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, that's really great.


----------



## Rollin (3 July 2009)

I don't think this mare's case is atypical.  An English friend who lives a few miles away has a TB ex race horse with excellent irish blood lines.

He was not much good as a race horse and was sold to a Chateau for horse riding holidays - also not much good for real beginners.  She bought him for meat money, which is all she could afford.  

Ignorant?  No an ex Whipper-In for a British Hunt and a point to point jockey.  Well heeled? No.

It is a sad thing that TB's and French Trotters who are no good on the race track are 'disposable'.


----------



## Amymay (3 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
It is a sad thing that TB's and French Trotters who are no good on the race track are 'disposable'  

[/ QUOTE ] 

As indeed they are in the UK and around the world generally.....


----------



## SirenaXVI (3 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think this mare's case is atypical.  An English friend who lives a few miles away has a TB ex race horse with excellent irish blood lines.

He was not much good as a race horse and was sold to a Chateau for horse riding holidays - also not much good for real beginners.  She bought him for meat money, which is all she could afford.  

Ignorant?  No an ex Whipper-In for a British Hunt and a point to point jockey.  Well heeled? No.

It is a sad thing that TB's and French Trotters who are no good on the race track are 'disposable'. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Not saying that it is atypical Rollin, that is really not the point here, the point is why bring a french horse over when there are several british tbs in exactly the same boat, only for the money spent you could save 2 not 1?


----------



## Happy Horse (3 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
 If the Rescue charities are (so called) i.e. deliberately posting misleading information and using monies in an inappropriate way a formal complaint should be made to the Charities Commission.  

[/ QUOTE ] 

They are not charities although they try to give the impression they are doing charitable work.  Really they are just agents for the low end dealers and dodgey farmers, whether or not this is what they want to believe themselves.

With regards to the misdescriptions one that springs to mind is a donkey.  On the 'rescue' site it was described as having a wart under the tail however on the Photobucket account of the person advertising the donkey there was a photograph of a large, bleeding sarcoid.  When questioned, this picture was not posted because it may have put people off rescuing the donkey.  This is the kind of deception that takes place in the name of 'rescue'.  It is all about saving the animals at whatever cost to them or the new owners to make the 'agents' feel good about themselves.  what really makes me laugh is the number of 'rare' Comtois being advertised at ridiculous prices on the sales websites - if only people knew


----------



## PopStrop (3 July 2009)

BER - On your website it states that you "are having to turn new arrivals away on a weekly basis." I am disappointed that you are turning away ponies and horses with uncertain futures in this country, yet find the room, and upkeep, for horses from overseas. I also note that you are appealing for funds to geld colts, fit a permanent water supply, new fencing and an arena.
Surely the money spent on this horse would be better used on the things that YOUR rescue centre needs, rather than adding a rather expensive mouth to feed?

(P.S I didn't scour your site, I looked at 2 pages, one of which I don't seem to be able to access from your site anymore?)


----------



## Rollin (3 July 2009)

As I have already suggested what about a UK site for horses for loan or rehome.  I am sure lots of folk would love to buy a TB for less than £500.


----------



## lucretia (3 July 2009)

then they are better off going to Ascot or Donny and picking one that they can atl least look at to make sure it has four matching legs and pat to make sure it doesnt gnaw their arms off, if you dont mind me saying so.


----------



## MurphysMinder (3 July 2009)

Exactly Lucretia, I cannot understand the appeal in buying a horse from a photo when you can go to a sale over here and actually see them in the flesh before you buy, and probably pay a lot less money too.


----------



## jes_nibley (3 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
i buy these types ALL the time...

its really sad.. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair play to you JM, I would dearly love to buy / rescue (call it what you will) but unfortunately, whilst I could happily manage the upkeep, I can't afford the initial purchase!!!

Keep up the good work hun, and the rest of you guys too!!


----------



## Ravenwood (4 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
When down on Exmoor a few weeks ago, when the Golden Horse Shoe was on.  I went to the Exmoor pony Centre.  A lot of these are sent to slaughter or to zoos and they are a UK pony they are weight carriers well upto about 12 stone apparently.  I would rather support them. They do put ponies into homes but vet them and you very carefully.  If we lose the Exmoor Ponies then that would be such a disaster in my opinion.  As they are just a few pounds when rounded up off Exmoor and sold at market 

[/ QUOTE ]

Flowerlady - it's lovely that you visited Exmoor and went to the pony centre which is a charity to rehome exmoors on an adoption process - but I suggest that you come again when the pony sales take place more usually in October where you will see first hand what the ponies make. 

Make sure you realise at the time that they are driven off the moor into coralls and seperated from their mother there and then to be sold either to a private home (very rare) or for meat for around £50 or less.

You also have to remember that this practise has been ongoing for hundreds of years and has resulted in what is probably the very last pure herd of exceptionally healthy and true to breed native ponies also currently on the rare breeds list.

The Exmoor Pony Society (which you visited) possibly do an invaluable job training the youngsters with natural horsemanship techniques but you also have to remember that the herds have been sustained pure for many generations before that by the very local and insular people who have looked after this breed.


----------



## flowerlady (4 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When down on Exmoor a few weeks ago, when the Golden Horse Shoe was on.  I went to the Exmoor pony Centre.  A lot of these are sent to slaughter or to zoos and they are a UK pony they are weight carriers well upto about 12 stone apparently.  I would rather support them. They do put ponies into homes but vet them and you very carefully.  If we lose the Exmoor Ponies then that would be such a disaster in my opinion.  As they are just a few pounds when rounded up off Exmoor and sold at market 

[/ QUOTE ]

Flowerlady - it's lovely that you visited Exmoor and went to the pony centre which is a charity to rehome exmoors on an adoption process - but I suggest that you come again when the pony sales take place more usually in October where you will see first hand what the ponies make. 

Make sure you realise at the time that they are driven off the moor into coralls and seperated from their mother there and then to be sold either to a private home (very rare) or for meat for around £50 or less.

You also have to remember that this practise has been ongoing for hundreds of years and has resulted in what is probably the very last pure herd of exceptionally healthy and true to breed native ponies also currently on the rare breeds list.

The Exmoor Pony Society (which you visited) possibly do an invaluable job training the youngsters with natural horsemanship techniques but you also have to remember that the herds have been sustained pure for many generations before that by the very local and insular people who have looked after this breed. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Ravenwood I think you misunderstood.  That is what I was saying I think though there are two herds aren't there the ones with the Anchor mark and the ones with the diamond?  Please correct me if I'm wrong?  The lady at the centre explained about the processes ie fostering from ferrel almost to rideable after they have broken them in.  I fully intend to visit again and if you can tell me when the market days are I would like to go.  What I was trying to say before is that these beautiful ponies are very cheap and also go to market and they are British. (Does that make sense).   
	
	
		
		
	


	









I know they go for meat more than private homes I really wish it was the other way round.


----------



## Rollin (4 July 2009)

There are plenty of small British native ponies which fetch very little money at sale.  The problem ponies face today is that they live a long time and British children in 2000 plus are much taller and heavier than children of 1950's.

So they are outgrown very quickly and one pony will have several child riders in its life.  In fact they are ideally suited to French children who are so much smaller and lighter.

The last BHS survey I saw identified that 60% of British horse riders are women aged 40 or over.  Many new riders are women who return to the sport when children are grown up.  So the only ponies likely to be suitable for them are Dales, Highlands, Section D, etc and these don't come cheap.

I would expect to pay at least £3k for an unbacked Highland.


----------



## terigower123 (4 July 2009)

some friends and myself have offered  to give money to save Royal.....i admire anyone who saves and gives time ,love and money.to those horses that need urgent help  ..i trust Toni  will do her utmost  in every stage of this   rescue....and hope she gets the support she needs...


----------



## Gonetofrance (4 July 2009)

Why is she more special than the hundreds of needy TBs in the UK?

For the money going to Royal, you could take at LEAST two UK horses out of the meat chain. 

I am genuinely confused?


----------



## Rollin (4 July 2009)

Tell us where we can find these TB's for meat money.  

Some months ago I heard of an Irish Draft going for slaughter.  My informant told me the UK slaughter houses (I think there are only two) were very reluctant to sell horses once purchased.

She had managed to get him to agree to sell THIS particular horse but I don't know if there were any takers.

Of course many ex-track TB's are not suitable for recreational riders who only want to hack out, which is why there are now re-training centres.

Let us have a UK Rescue and Rehoming Board where people can post their horses for loan also.


----------



## jes_nibley (4 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
Tell us where we can find these TB's for meat money.  

Of course many ex-track TB's are not suitable for recreational riders who only want to hack out, which is why there are now re-training centres.

Let us have a UK Rescue and Rehoming Board where people can post their horses for loan also. 

[/ QUOTE ]

 <font color="purple">  </font> 

I second that - I, for one, would love to have an ex-racer to event. I would prefer to have one fresh from the track as I'd like to do the re-training myself, however I'd also take on one that had be part re-trained. I just can't seem to find the one - sorry if that sounds wrong but if I'm going to rescue one, I'd like it to be the right one...!


JM07 : Well done and huge thank you's (if you like) for all the hard work you and the others (apologies, I'm not sure who exactly is involved) are doing. If there is anything I can do to help - be it research, letter writing or anything else please let me know. Pm me if you want a phone number or e-mail etc.

Cheers.


----------



## MurphysMinder (4 July 2009)

I had an ex racer straight from the trainer, but that was 30 odd years ago.  However I know someone else who has had 2 ex-racers who have had injuries, some time off and some tlc and they were fine.  
They may not all have raced but plenty of TBs go through Beeston, and I expect through the other sale rings, at meat prices.


----------



## Amymay (4 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
Tell us where we can find these TB's for meat money.   

[/ QUOTE ] 

Not even meat money Rollin.  I have been offered three TB's this year - all free, straight out of racing and rather nice.

Go to some of the bigger sales and you will see some nice ones going through the ring for not very much money.

Go direct to the trainers and ask them to keep an eye out for anything that might come up.

It takes a bit of effort, but they are all out there.


----------



## Amymay (4 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
Of course many ex-track TB's are not suitable for recreational riders who only want to hack out, which is why there are now re-training centres.


[/ QUOTE ] 

Actually that's not quite true.  They make brilliant recreational horses.  They are often bomb proof to hack out.  Just need some re-education on the use of brakes (and what they mean) and working alone.

I had an ex hurdler, who was just wonderful.  My friend had his 'training' partner, also who was a really nice sort.


----------



## Rollin (4 July 2009)

So why don't horse lovers UK on this board set up a website to save them from slaughter or dodgy dealers.  

Then kind hearted people, short of cash, and with no aspiration to be Olympic Showjumpers could offer them loving homes and not waste their money on the unsuitable mounts rescued from France.

This would seem a win win solution.  Ask Admin to do a Sticky on horses which need to be saved from slaughter.


----------



## flowerlady (4 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
So why don't horse lovers UK on this board set up a website to save them from slaughter or dodgy dealers.  

Then kind hearted people, short of cash, and with no aspiration to be Olympic Showjumpers could offer them loving homes and not waste their money on the unsuitable mounts rescued from France.

This would seem a win win solution.  Ask Admin to do a Sticky on horses which need to be saved from slaughter. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't you think if people are short of money as you put it.  It would not be a good idea to buy or rescue a horse they are expensive most of the time and need farriers, vets etc.  They are not like a car that can stand on a drive until you can afford to pay for them.


----------



## Gonetofrance (4 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
Tell us where we can find these TB's for meat money. 

[/ QUOTE ] 

At the various TB dispersal sales held throughout the year, straight out of racing, through the general sales etc. It is a case of doing research. 

Most abattoirs in general do not sell direct to the public. Neither do the French ones. 

[ QUOTE ]
Of course many ex-track TB's are not suitable for recreational riders who only want to hack out, which is why there are now re-training centres.


[/ QUOTE ]

Based on what? As someone who has been involved in racing and and competed and reschooled TBs I totally disagree with that. Of course there are *some* horses unsuitable, but in the main, when the horse is taken off the rocket fuel it is fed when in training, it is quite capable of being a 'normal' horse. 

The retraining centres exist to help horses leaving training, and to be a halfway house between racing and the public. 

If someone is incapable of taking on a horse out of training in the UK, their last consideration should be importing an injured TB out of racing in France.........


----------



## Amymay (4 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
So why don't horse lovers UK on this board set up a website to save them from slaughter or dodgy dealers.  

Then kind hearted people, short of cash, and with no aspiration to be Olympic Showjumpers could offer them loving homes and not waste their money on the unsuitable mounts rescued from France.

This would seem a win win solution.  Ask Admin to do a Sticky on horses which need to be saved from slaughter. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Seems to me that the majority of people who post on here are savvy enough to source horses themselves if that is what they wish to do.   
	
	
		
		
	


	





I'm still really interested to know what _your_ concerns are regarding 'rescue's' as you alluded to in a previous post....


----------



## Rollin (4 July 2009)

Yes and no.  There are plenty of horses (particularly British Natives) who can live out 24/7 and are fed just forage.  After all it is all horses got to eat before man discovered farming fed them grain and built them stables.

My children's first pony had never been shod and he just had his feet trimmed.  In France many horses are unshod.

I have friends in Berkshire who keep horses on very modest incomes.

Capital and cash flow are not the same.


----------



## Rollin (4 July 2009)

Sorry I should have explained.  I did not wish to post on this forum what I wrote to DEFRA or rather some aspects of my letter.


----------



## Amymay (4 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry I should have explained.  I did not wish to post on this forum what I wrote to DEFRA or rather some aspects of my letter. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough - obviously not everything is for public consumption.  But generally, without giving away 'trade' secrets as it were??

It would be great to know what other angles are being worked.


----------



## flowerlady (4 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
Yes and no.  There are plenty of horses (particularly British Natives) who can live out 24/7 and are fed just forage.  After all it is all horses got to eat before man discovered farming fed them grain and built them stables.

My children's first pony had never been shod and he just had his feet trimmed.  In France many horses are unshod.

I have friends in Berkshire who keep horses on very modest incomes.

Capital and cash flow are not the same. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Rollin I never said to shoe a farrier does just trim too.  As for people who have horses on modest incomes.  I just hope their horses never need a vet as if they can't afford them then I don't think the vet would be very pleased.  Owning a horse is a commitment when they are wild they learn to survive.  We have domesticated them to a certain extent so have to pay the price for injuries sustained whilst riding them and keeping them hemmed in paddocks and stables.  Before farmers discovered them as you say they weren't ridden either were they


----------



## Tankey (4 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]

I wrote to DEFRA expressing my concerns, which are somewhat different to those being expressed on this board.



[/ QUOTE ]In what way are your concerns different to ours?


----------



## Rollin (4 July 2009)

Ok Let me try again.  My friend's horses are well cared for.

My vet in Scotland stopped invoicing his equine clients many years ago.  His particular no-go area were local livery yards, where DIY clients had to pay before the vet left.  i understand that such bad debt is not uncommon for vet practices.  During 8 years he never had to chase me to pay a bill.

My painter/decorator spent more on fags than it cost me to keep three horses.


----------



## Rollin (4 July 2009)

Sorry I missed a bit of your post.  Yes horses were ridden before man farmed.  Man was a hunter gatherer before he was a farmer.

Nomads kept animals but did not grow grain e.g. Mongols, Apaches, Bedoins.  All their animals did and still do live on forage.


----------



## Amymay (4 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
My painter/decorator spent more on fags than it cost me to keep three horses.  

[/ QUOTE ] 

Wow, love to know how you managed that one.  My horse is bankrupting me


----------



## flowerlady (4 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
Ok Let me try again.  My friend's horses are well cared for.

My vet in Scotland stopped invoicing his equine clients many years ago.  His particular no-go area were local livery yards, where DIY clients had to pay before the vet left.  i understand that such bad debt is not uncommon for vet practices.  During 8 years he never had to chase me to pay a bill.

My painter/decorator spent more on fags than it cost me to keep three horses. 

[/ QUOTE ]

deleted


----------



## Tankey (4 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I wrote to DEFRA expressing my concerns, which are somewhat different to those being expressed on this board.



[/ QUOTE ]In what way are your concerns different to ours? 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]Just quoting again....perhaps you missed me


----------



## Rollin (4 July 2009)

No didn't miss you.  Someone else asked the same and I have already responded.

This is a very stimulating debate.  Lots of good stuff and no mud slinging.


----------



## Tankey (4 July 2009)

I cant find the response


----------



## Cuffey (4 July 2009)

Living in the Borders with Riding of the Marches festivals lots of young men own TBs out of racing and they have a fantastic time with them as every gala has a flat race meeting (flapping)
Many have been bought for little money at Doncaster sales or by direct negotiation with a trainer for a horse ready to retire--and they are still young.
TBs are great for these galas as the horses love going out with their ''friends''
Many of the lads are not great riders but they are brave and love the speed.
Some hunt through the winter do the odd XC but most get winter off.


----------



## Amymay (4 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
I cant find the response  
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

No, Tanks, Rollin did respond to my question earlier:

 [ QUOTE ]
_Sorry I should have explained. I did not wish to post on this forum what I wrote to DEFRA or rather some aspects of my letter. 
_ 

[/ QUOTE ] 

Sounds intruiging.  But as I said earlier, some things may need to be kept out of the public domain.  Perhaps because of their sensativity.


----------



## Tankey (4 July 2009)

Sounds all a bit odd to me


----------



## Amymay (4 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
or by direct negotiation with a trainer for a horse ready to retire--and they are still young.  

[/ QUOTE ] 

There's quite a few ex - racers at my old yard.  One, a lovely little bay, was given to the girl straight out of racing as a 7 year old.  She didn't pay a penny for him.  He went through the sales ring as a yearling for 3/4 million pounds......

My jaw nearly hit the flaw when I heard that.


----------



## Gonetofrance (4 July 2009)

And at top level over the years , off the top of my head, Wily Imp, Miner's Frolic, Reddy Teddy, Phoenix Park...........


----------



## SirenaXVI (6 July 2009)

I asked the same question and can't remember receiving a reply, could youi possibly repeat your reply Rollin?  I cannot find it anywhere

Thank you


----------



## lucretia (6 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
  Yes horses were ridden before man farmed.  Man was a hunter gatherer before he was a farmer.

Nomads kept animals but did not grow grain e.g. Mongols, Apaches, Bedoins.  All their animals did and still do live on forage. 

[/ QUOTE ]

actually just so you know, horses were 'farmed' and therefore eaten, well before they were ridden. The reason someone probably thought of riding one was because they were already around semi- domesticated for food. 
   Just like to keep all our facts clear.


----------

