# The sacked horse hitting ex teacher is going to court



## TPO (25 January 2022)

I think the title sums it up...

The RSPCA are taking her to court.

https://www.stamfordmercury.co.uk/n...ourt-after-kicking-and-hitting-horse-9236757/


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## Birker2020 (25 January 2022)

That will be interesting and may set a precedent for future cases.


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## bonny (25 January 2022)

TPO said:



			I think the title sums it up...

The RSPCA are taking her to court.

https://www.stamfordmercury.co.uk/n...ourt-after-kicking-and-hitting-horse-9236757/

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That’s a bit harsh, I think she’s suffered enough.


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## stangs (25 January 2022)

They're making an example of her because the story went viral. That said, I don't know what they think the case will achieve?


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## CanteringCarrot (25 January 2022)

I don't condone what this woman did and how she acted, but as far as "abuse" goes, I would think there are bigger fish to fry.


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## Birker2020 (25 January 2022)

CanteringCarrot said:



			I don't condone what this woman did and how she acted, but as far as "abuse" goes, I would think there are bigger fish to fry.
		
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I suppose it depends whether it was a sustained attack or just a quick punch/kick neither of which are appropriate.


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## Birker2020 (25 January 2022)

stangs said:



			They're making an example of her because the story went viral. That said, I don't know what they think the case will achieve?
		
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I expect they think it will put off anyone else.

The woman that tried to drown her dog Bella, only got a 12 month community order.  I don't think anything major will come of it (hunting woman) if the case doesn't meet the threshold for a custodial sentence (which is highly unlikely).


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## mini_b (25 January 2022)

CanteringCarrot said:



			I don't condone what this woman did and how she acted, but as far as "abuse" goes, I would think there are bigger fish to fry.
		
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harry evans? he’s “viral” in the horse world, just because joe bloggs hasn’t seen him batter a horses teeth out in a video in a news rag he’s still getting away with it. 

i think this woman has been vilified by the public and her peers, (quite rightly so really) but for her to lose her job, go to court. I absolutely do not condone her behaviour but i do not think the punishment fits the crime.

Honestly, if this was me in this situation I would be suicidal.


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## Pinkvboots (25 January 2022)

Seen worse in livery yards over the years and it wont stop people they will just be careful when they do it so it doesn't end up on line somewhere.


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## BeansNsausages (25 January 2022)

She has already lost her job and been heaped with burning coals on social media. 

Typical RSPCA wanting to really stick the dagger in. 

She has suffered enough.


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## CanteringCarrot (25 January 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			I suppose it depends whether it was a sustained attack or just a quick punch/kick neither of which are appropriate.
		
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Did you see the video?

Also, I'm not arguing whether or not the action was appropriate because it wasn't. Perhaps my point was missed.


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## Arzada (25 January 2022)

CanteringCarrot said:



			I don't condone what this woman did and how she acted, but as far as "abuse" goes, I would think there are bigger fish to fry.
		
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It's easier to pick on the 'little' people. Like elderly ladies sitting in their communal garden in the summer socially distanced etc rather than eg people in a similar garden in Downing Street.


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## LEC (25 January 2022)

What a waste of Charity money. This is why the RSPCA does not get a penny from me. 

So many BIG issues in animal welfare and they will happily blow £20k on this bit of self serving marketing by undertaking a civil case like this. The money they will spend could pay for staffing, vet care etc


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## AdorableAlice (25 January 2022)

LEC said:



			What a waste of Charity money. This is why the RSPCA does not get a penny from me.

So many BIG issues in animal welfare and they will happily blow £20k on this bit of self serving marketing by undertaking a civil case like this. The money they will spend could pay for staffing, vet care etc
		
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Spot on.  They are totally not fit for purpose.


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## onemoretime (25 January 2022)

LEC said:



			What a waste of Charity money. This is why the RSPCA does not get a penny from me.

So many BIG issues in animal welfare and they will happily blow £20k on this bit of self serving marketing by undertaking a civil case like this. The money they will spend could pay for staffing, vet care etc
		
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The RSPCA are against hunting, it is more likely that this is their chance to get back at someone who hunts!  Ive seen far worse at competitions over the years, although I am not condoning what she did but I do feel she has been punished enough.


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## YorksG (25 January 2022)

The other thing that strikes me about this, is that Packham said he was tweeting the video to "alert " the RSPCA. It appears to me that two self serving entities are scratching each others backs somewhat.


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## TPO (25 January 2022)

What I find to be the saddest part of this is that all/nearly all of us can say that we have witnessed the same types of behaviours, if not worse.

Isn't it upsetting that this type of behaviour towards horses is verging on the "norm" and that there are people so willing to dismiss it because "people lose their tempers"?

I don't know where I stand exactly in regards to this person's behaviour. If she hadn't have done something "wrong" she wouldn't be in any bother. So whether what she did was a big wrong or a small wrong it's still a wrong?

She's probably also had that type of behaviour normalised. She has lost her job, is going to court and no doubt has had a very hard time of it since she took the action that she did.

To me I don't know if "it was only..." excuses the behaviour or if this, possibly OTT, action is required to try and stamp out the "low level" violence towards horses.

Perhaps this womans case will make others who are a bit handsy think twice or learn to control their tempers? Perhaps the sacking and court case will empower others to speak up when they see similar instead of being worn down to accept that this is what happens sometimes.

Honestly some of the replies in the various threads about this woman have been more distressing than what she did but that's the joy of the Internet I guess.


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## RHM (25 January 2022)

I think there is no denying her actions and behaviour are wrong. No one can condone what she did. However, surely when bringing cases to court there has to be an element of what is in the public’s best interest? 
This will cost a absolute fortune to vilify someone even further. It’s absolutely ridiculous, she won’t be anywhere near the bar for a custodial sentence. I sense they are merely jumping on the bandwagon in the hope of a bit of publicity.


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## Birker2020 (25 January 2022)

CanteringCarrot said:



			Did you see the video?

Also, I'm not arguing whether or not the action was appropriate because it wasn't. Perhaps my point was missed.
		
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Yes I saw the video.  But given by what I said last time on the subject (given I had two years experience gained within a POT team) and the resultant threat inimated towards me, I think its safer to pretend not to admit to knowing anything.


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## luckyoldme (25 January 2022)

I think she's been through a hell of a lot as it is and the whole thing stinks of social media driven 'justice'.
It feels like public outrage is directly linked to wether or not someone is investigated/prosecuted these days


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## YorksG (25 January 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			Yes I saw the video.  But given by what I said last time on the subject (given I had two years experience gained within a POT team) and the resultant threat inimated towards me, I think its safer to pretend not to admit to knowing anything. 

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That is a very serious allegation, if you believe that a threat was intimated towards you, the I would hope that you reported the threat to admin.


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## Pearlsasinger (25 January 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			Yes I saw the video.  But given by what I said last time on the subject (given I had two years experience gained within a POT team) and the resultant threat inimated towards me, I think its safer to pretend not to admit to knowing anything. 

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Which tbf, you don't really.  Not compared with those who have real experience of working in the field


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## SEL (25 January 2022)

She shouldn't have lost her temper but I wasn't exactly polite to my mare when she squashed me against the gate in a tizz last week. I didn't think at the time it justified her losing her job and I don't think it justifies a court case either.

I'm another who stopped donating to the RSPCA after failing to get them interested in genuine abuse so now support smaller charities


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## Birker2020 (25 January 2022)

YorksG said:



			That is a very serious allegation, if you believe that a threat was intimated towards you, the I would hope that you reported the threat to admin.
		
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Yeah like they have ever took any notice.


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## Nicnac (25 January 2022)

What she did was wrong, there's no denying that fact.  Whether we have seen the same or worse elsewhere is sad but not pertinent here.

The RSPCA are using this as a marketing exercise as we all know they are near to useless in the majority of cases.

This woman has suffered enough - she's lost her job, her PC position, been vilified on social media, her children have suffered.


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## CanteringCarrot (25 January 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			I suppose it depends whether it was a sustained attack or just a quick punch/kick neither of which are appropriate.
		
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Birker2020 said:



			Yes I saw the video.  But given by what I said last time on the subject (given I had two years experience gained within a POT team) and the resultant threat inimated towards me, I think its safer to pretend not to admit to knowing anything. 

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Ah, ok. Your first quote made it sound like you didn't see the video or weren't sure about what had happened. Perhaps I misread.

If there was a threat, I hope you reported it and that it was dealt with.


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## Gallop_Away (25 January 2022)

bonny said:



			That’s a bit harsh, I think she’s suffered enough.
		
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Completely agree. What she did was awful but the woman has lost her job, had her life and her family's lives turned upside down. Leave her be!


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## Birker2020 (25 January 2022)

Pearlsasinger said:



			Which tbf, you don't really.  Not compared with those who have real experience of working in the field
		
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I know enough about the work done with LADO and in the field of position of trust and if someone works in a position of trust and a referral is made against them that it has to be investigated.
If it is investigated and on the balance of the transference of risk  there is a case to be made then a meeting will be held and the matter may be investigated further by the appropriate agencies and the POI may be asked to attend additional training or they may be sacked dependent on a number of factors of which we are not and will not be party to.

I don't think anything that I have said about any of it was incorrect. But if you choose to beg to differ then that is up to you and I couldn't care less.  Going home now.


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## Velcrobum (25 January 2022)

Some years ago the Police and Fire Brigade requested the assistance of RSPCA they refused to attend leaving myself to help as best I could. I stopped donating then as I and the emergency services were utterly disgusted.


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## meleeka (25 January 2022)

RHM said:



			I think there is no denying her actions and behaviour are wrong. No one can condone what she did. However, surely when bringing cases to court there has to be an element of what is in the public’s best interest? 
This will cost a absolute fortune to vilify someone even further. It’s absolutely ridiculous, she won’t be anywhere near the bar for a custodial sentence. I sense they are merely jumping on the bandwagon in the hope of a bit of publicity.
		
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There was a similar prosecution local to me last year of a fairly well know dealer. It could have been that  the RSPCA have just decided to actually do something, but seeing as though the scum that really abuse animals are still carrying on, sticking two fingers up at the law as they usually do, I’ve come to the conclusion it’s just high profile people/videos that they deem worthy of a prosecution.


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## eahotson (25 January 2022)

CanteringCarrot said:



			I don't condone what this woman did and how she acted, but as far as "abuse" goes, I would think there are bigger fish to fry.
		
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Wish there was a love button.


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## ycbm (25 January 2022)

This is the RSPCA trying to avoid criticism for not acting and also having a go at hunting,  I think. 

It simply isn't in the public interest to waste court time and money to prosecute this when there is a huge Covid backlog of dealing with real criminals.  If the CPS had been given it I don't believe it would have met the threshold to get to court.  IMO it's a misuse of charity funding against a women whose punishment has already been grossly disproportionate to her crime. 
.


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## milliepops (25 January 2022)

TPO said:



			To me I don't know if "it was only..." excuses the behaviour or if this, possibly OTT, action is required to try and stamp out the "low level" violence towards horses.

Perhaps this womans case will make others who are a bit handsy think twice or learn to control their tempers? Perhaps the sacking and court case will empower others to speak up when they see similar instead of being worn down to accept that this is what happens sometimes.
		
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Problem is, i just don't think people WILL feel empowered. Depressing as it is, i don't think one person can make much difference in most situations.  It's hard to work out how to say what i mean without coming across like a person with a massive superiority complex, which i am not, i teeter on the "we shouldn't have horses" rabbit hole edge pretty often. but there are a lot of people out there riding and handling horses with pretty minimal horsemanship/skill, who would give you a gobful if you commented on it. In fairness it's also easy to make a wrong judgement of something you happen upon the wrong moment and it is not always helpful to go wading in telling people they are Doing It All Wrong (what makes the onlooker *right* anyway?)

Behind closed doors i think it's almost impossible to have any influence. on the affiliated competition stage there are at least the red cards etc to flag the biggest abuses that happen in public.  I have mostly bowed out of grass roots stuff, i got asked to judge for a little show once and i said to one participant's (accredited) instructor that the horse was lame and i wouldn't judge it, and was told to stop party pooping. well i just left them to party by themselves. I pretend it's not happening now.  It feels like an unsolvable problem. the RSPCA aren't going to be videoing little informal events or yards 24/7


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## eahotson (25 January 2022)

TPO said:



			What I find to be the saddest part of this is that all/nearly all of us can say that we have witnessed the same types of behaviours, if not worse.

Isn't it upsetting that this type of behaviour towards horses is verging on the "norm" and that there are people so willing to dismiss it because "people lose their tempers"?

I don't know where I stand exactly in regards to this person's behaviour. If she hadn't have done something "wrong" she wouldn't be in any bother. So whether what she did was a big wrong or a small wrong it's still a wrong?

She's probably also had that type of behaviour normalised. She has lost her job, is going to court and no doubt has had a very hard time of it since she took the action that she did.

To me I don't know if "it was only..." excuses the behaviour or if this, possibly OTT, action is required to try and stamp out the "low level" violence towards horses.

Perhaps this womans case will make others who are a bit handsy think twice or learn to control their tempers? Perhaps the sacking and court case will empower others to speak up when they see similar instead of being worn down to accept that this is what happens sometimes.

Honestly some of the replies in the various threads about this woman have been more distressing than what she did but that's the joy of the Internet I guess.
		
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We could start ,of course,with the violence routinely dealt out in competition rings up and down the country.Mostly it's ignored.The worst thing otherwise is a fine and suspension.No criminal charge,no loss of job or vilification on social media.


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## Winters100 (25 January 2022)

While I hate what she did, and strongly suspect that I would dislike this woman if I ever met her, I begin to feel very sorry for her.  What she did was wrong, but to lose your job and have to go into hiding, surely that is enough punishment?


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## J&S (25 January 2022)

Sadly she is an "easy target",  as people have said, there is far worse cruelty going on which does not get dealt with apropriately because it is hidden and not "out there".  I too think she has been punished enough and that this court case is over kill.


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## windand rain (25 January 2022)

I don't condone her actions she was stupid/arrogant enough to think she could do it without repercussion I don't think her actions warrant the hang draw and quarter process that has gone on. The RSPCA are reknown for going after easy targets mostly avoiding the more serious stuff from the thugs that perpetuate violence against horses. I too have seen far worse at shows usually in the lorry park and yes I did try to do something about it but it is not easy when they are likely to turn on you with equal violence


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## scats (25 January 2022)

I would much rather see Harry Evans in court than this woman, to be honest.  That video from a year or two ago will haunt me forever. 
I’m assuming this is happening because it ended up all over the news, so the RSPCA have to be seen to act.


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## YorksG (25 January 2022)

I thought the RSPCA were giving up prosecutions in "cruelty " cases and were leaving out to the cps, which they should imo


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## PapaverFollis (25 January 2022)

Dear God.

I've very much said my piece on this on the previous thread. 

I just hope that the woman has good support.


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## BeansNsausages (25 January 2022)

PapaverFollis said:



			Dear God.

I've very much said my piece on this on the previous thread.

I just hope that the woman has good support.
		
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This. 

I hope she is reading this so she can see that the majority of us, although not condoning her behaviour, feel she needs to be cut some slack now.


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## Quigleyandme (25 January 2022)

So the RSPCA will waste more of the money well meaning and trusting people donate or leave to them thinking it will be used to save animals from abuse and neglect on yet another spurious court case. Million pound donations to the Labour Party, plush new headquarters, the purchase of a large detached house  for a cat sanctuary in which the director’s daughter and her eight pet cats were the only residents, rescued horses starved and neglected under their stewardship and hundreds of thousands wasted on prosecuting hunts. They are the bloody criminals here.


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## mariew (25 January 2022)

Yup, agree it's using a viral media event to do some marketing for themselves, and I also wouldn't be surprised that the fact that she is a hunts woman has fuelled the fire. Trial by social media terrifies me as it just riles up the keyboard warriors into some sort of lynch mob mentality. 

She did wrong but the punishment doesn't fit the crime


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## Nudibranch (25 January 2022)

I don't know.
I'm a teacher.
I'm not a bunny hugger, and have given the odd wallop on the chest for downright rudeness in the past.
I have no time for the RSPCA.
I can't stand Packham.
I detest the way social media seems to have a bigger influence than the law these days.
I suspect she shouldn't really have lost her job over it.
I believe there are many worse cases of abuse and cruelty that should be dealt with.

And yet, I still can't muster any sympathy for her. The way she went at that horse, who wasn't being rude or dangerous, and kicked and smacked him in the face. That's pure temper. You just don't hit horses in the face. That is clear abuse and there is an element of an example needing to be made. 

The fact that it's not the worst case of abuse doesn't mean it should go unpunished.


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## YorksG (25 January 2022)

Nudibranch said:



			I don't know.
I'm a teacher.
I'm not a bunny hugger, and have given the odd wallop on the chest for downright rudeness in the past.
I have no time for the RSPCA.
I can't stand Packham.
I detest the way social media seems to have a bigger influence than the law these days.
I suspect she shouldn't really have lost her job over it.
I believe there are many worse cases of abuse and cruelty that should be dealt with.

And yet, I still can't muster any sympathy for her. The way she went at that horse, who wasn't being rude or dangerous, and kicked and smacked him in the face. That's pure temper. You just don't hit horses in the face. That is clear abuse and there is an element of an example needing to be made.

The fact that it's not the worst case of abuse doesn't mean it should go unpunished.
		
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But surely "it" has already been punished way beyond what is reasonable?


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## minesadouble (25 January 2022)

The RSPCA are beyond a joke! At the very least they should have their charitable status removed. 
They have zero interest in animal welfare, I'm quite sure the vast majority of those who donate to them would not be happy to see their money spent in this way.


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## SO1 (25 January 2022)

I think you are wrong there. I expect most people who donate to RSPCA know nothing about horses and are anti hunting l. Many of their supporters may have seen that video and been horrified and the RSPCA could easily have been lobbied by their supporters to prosecute. They may even have high net worth supporters who have been willing to donate to fund the case.

The RSPCA has some very wealthy supporters including Deborah Meaden who has horses https://www.looktothestars.org/charity/rspca

I agree there are certainly situations which are much worse including dodgy dealers and professional riders but because they are not seen by the right person they probably get away with it. 

This is probably strategic they have to been seen to be doing something if they didn't they may lose supporters and they may even gain supporters from this case such is the vitriol against hunting from the average person. Think of it as a fundraising investment. Yes the case will cost a lot of money but it will raise the profile of RSPCA, may attract new supporters and stop supporters from leaving they could actually end up being financially better off by taking this to court than by letting it go.

I doubt they will win. If they do win it will be a wake up call for the equestrian community as anyone who is able to film similar sort of behaviour would be able to send it to the RSPCA and expect them to investigate. 

What we don't know is if this was a one off incident where the stress of the situation lead to unacceptable behaviour or if this woman regularly treats horses like this. If this is normal behaviour for this lady then it is a very different situation than if it is a one off. 



minesadouble said:



			The RSPCA are beyond a joke! At the very least they should have their charitable status removed. 
They have zero interest in animal welfare, I'm quite sure the vast majority of those who donate to them would not be happy to see their money spent in this way.
		
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## Birker2020 (26 January 2022)

I've just read that she was suspended then sacked following a thorough investigation. And removed from her voluntary role within the pony club I assume due to a possible transference of risk that might be associated with a role like that.  Something I've been saying all along could/might happen in such a situation anyone in a position of trust.

The RSPCA are attempting to bring 2 charges against her.

This is one of the links, the original one I read this morning on my mobile which was 9 hours old I can't find.
https://www.itv.com/news/2022-01-25/woman-to-appear-in-court-charged-with-kicking-and-hitting-pony


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## ycbm (26 January 2022)

Nudibranch said:



			The fact that it's not the worst case of abuse doesn't mean it should go unpunished
		
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It hasn't.  
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## Birker2020 (26 January 2022)

YorksG said:



			But surely "it" has already been punished way beyond what is reasonable?
		
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It's not beyond what is reasonable though.  It is perfectly reasonable given the role the woman did as a teacher.
https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/offences/magistrates-court/item/animal-cruelty-revised-2017/
This is a guideline for animal cruelty I've just pulled from the internet in respect of sentencing guidelines.  Have no idea if it applies in this case but what I'm trying to stress is the sentence third from bottom.  

Those of you on the forum who say "but I smack my horse" or "I lost my temper last week with the pony" - *its not relevant. * But if you were a teacher, nursery worker, doctor, coach or anything else whose role is predominately working with children* then it would be relevant*.


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## meleeka (26 January 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			It's not beyond what is reasonable though.  It is perfectly reasonable given the role the woman did as a teacher.
		
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Reasonable would have been banned from the hunt and a warning from the police.  The whole country baying for blood was not reasonable imo.


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## YorksG (26 January 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			It's not beyond what is reasonable though.  It is perfectly reasonable given the role the woman did as a teacher.
		
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Well your view of reasonable and just, is very different from mine. I prefer due process, rather than social media witch hunt.


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## CanteringCarrot (26 January 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			It's not beyond what is reasonable though.  It is perfectly reasonable given the role the woman did as a teacher.
		
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So if I did what the woman did to the horse, but I'm an office secretary (for example), my consequences should be different? Interesting to consider when it comes to animal abuse, that different professions are held to different standards.


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## Pearlsasinger (26 January 2022)

That link does not match your summary, no mention of suspension from her job or that she was sacked.   It simply says that she was 'let go' which can cover a multitude.


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## Birker2020 (26 January 2022)

CanteringCarrot said:



			So if I did what the woman did to the horse, but I'm an office secretary (for example), my consequences should be different? Interesting to consider when it comes to animal abuse, that different professions are held to different standards.
		
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Do you work with children in your role as office secretary? No.  Therefore there is nothing to safeguard.
If you worked with children in your role as office secretary it could be construed that there is a risk to children. If you are that short tempered and a child gave you a mouthful of cheek you could react and slap the child.  Doubtful that could happen I know.  

But the role that the person in question did meant she was surrounded by children all day long.  THerefore the transference of risk is greater.


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## J&S (26 January 2022)

SO1 said:



			I think you are wrong there. I expect most people who donate to RSPCA know nothing about horses and are anti hunting l. Many of their supporters may have seen that video and been horrified and the RSPCA could easily have been lobbied by their supporters to prosecute. They may even have high net worth supporters who have been willing to donate to fund the case.

The RSPCA has some very wealthy supporters including Deborah Meaden who has horses https://www.looktothestars.org/charity/rspca

I agree there are certainly situations which are much worse including dodgy dealers and professional riders but because they are not seen by the right person they probably get away with it.

This is probably strategic they have to been seen to be doing something if they didn't they may lose supporters and they may even gain supporters from this case such is the vitriol against hunting from the average person. Think of it as a fundraising investment. Yes the case will cost a lot of money but it will raise the profile of RSPCA, may attract new supporters and stop supporters from leaving they could actually end up being financially better off by taking this to court than by letting it go.

I doubt they will win. If they do win it will be a wake up call for the equestrian community as anyone who is able to film similar sort of behaviour would be able to send it to the RSPCA and expect them to investigate.

What we don't know is if this was a one off incident where the stress of the situation lead to unacceptable behaviour or if this woman regularly treats horses like this. If this is normal behaviour for this lady then it is a very different situation than if it is a one off.
		
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This comes under the heading of "Any publicitiy is good publicity"!


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## honetpot (26 January 2022)

Just a thought, what do people think about electric cattle prods, or electric collars for dogs, and how do they compare?


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## Birker2020 (26 January 2022)

Pearlsasinger said:



			That link does not match your summary, nomention of suspensionfromher job or that she was sacked.   It simply says that she was 'let go' which can cover a multitude.
		
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I told you I was having an issue finding the article but I've found it now:
Leicestershire teacher Sarah Moulds charged with animal cruelty over video of horse being punched and kicked | UK News | Sky News


Third paragraph from end


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## southerncomfort (26 January 2022)

I suspect statements from her supporters along the lines of ' she hasn't done anything wrong, the horse was being naughty' really didn't help her cause.  I suspect if she'd expressed an iota of regret or remorse at any point the story would be old news by now.

Not sure how I feel about the prosecution.  And I do think as a society we are very slow to forgive.  But it's hard to feel sympathy for someone who refuses to acknowledge their poor behaviour.


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## Birker2020 (26 January 2022)

honetpot said:



			Just a thought, what do people think about electric cattle prods, or electric collars for dogs, and how do they compare?
		
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Not the issue here.


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## mariew (26 January 2022)

honetpot said:



			Just a thought, what do people think about electric cattle prods, or electric collars for dogs, and how do they compare?
		
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Cattle prods, not sure as cows are big and can be pretty dangerous and possibly a necessity for emergencies. Not too far off electric fencing?

I didn't even know electric collars were legal, they shouldn't be. Together with those that have spikes towards the neck.

But as birker said, not really that relevant to the original issue


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## stangs (26 January 2022)

honetpot said:



			Just a thought, what do people think about electric cattle prods, or electric collars for dogs, and how do they compare?
		
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Don't know much about cattle management so can't comment, but an electric prod doesn't sound like a tool I'd want to use if anything better was available. 

Despise electric collars and think there's no place for them in 99.9% of cases where they're used. I'd say they're about the same as what this woman did (depending on the voltage), but you can't really compare them given different animals, different parts of the body, and different contexts.


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## BeansNsausages (26 January 2022)

honetpot said:



			Just a thought, what do people think about electric cattle prods, or electric collars for dogs, and how do they compare?
		
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E collars have been extensively discussed on the dog section if you do a search. 

https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/controversial-electric-collars.804956/


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## TPO (26 January 2022)

I think the difference is that this person set about her horse for her own reasons/temper and cattle prods/e-collars etc are totally different things.

Re cattle prods and e-collars; each has their place in EXPERIENCED hands. Neither do anything of their own accord ots the human element that makes them dangerous.

It's the good old "blue pipe" I've experienced being used when working cattle as its more about getting into their space/bubble safely to get them to move away from "pressure". I've used a prod on beasts who plant in the race and are causing difficult situations so need to be moved when shouting/jumping/blue pipe isn't doing the job or when a beast has locked onto a person who won't make it out the way in time.

I've never used an e-collar but in the right hands I'd imagine that they could be a useful, if extreme/last chance, training aid in certain situations. I don't like that they are available wily nily to any Joe Bloggs.

Of course as with all things they have the potential to cause serious harm but as this ex teacher has shown you don't need anything if you want to set about an animal yo cause it harm or distress. 

I do think it's a separate discussion from this one though.


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## Birker2020 (26 January 2022)

meleeka said:



			Reasonable would have been banned from the hunt and a warning from the police.  The whole country baying for blood was not reasonable imo.
		
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But the decision wasn't made by the whole country..  And what the media have written about would have been disregarded.  The decision would have been made up with a panel of professionals who would have thoroughly investigated the allegations, decided if it met the threshold for further input, taken into account the history of the POI, address the scope of the investigation including other children possibly at risk and consider the allegation in the context of any previous allegations or concerns and then made a decision based on parameters set by a safeguarding committee.


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## meleeka (26 January 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			But the decision wasn't made by the whole country..  And what the media have written about would have been disregarded.  The decision would have been made up with a panel of professionals who would have thoroughly investigated the allegations, decided if it met the threshold for further input, taken into account the history of the POI, any previous employment issues, any previous police warnings/criminal record (if applicable), made a decision based on whether they posed a risk of harm to children in their role as teacher and made a decision based on parameters set by a safeguarding committee.
		
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Would that have happened if the video hadn’t been posted everywhere and the name of the school and LEA also widely named?


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## Birker2020 (26 January 2022)

meleeka said:



			Would that have happened if the video hadn’t been posted everywhere and the name of the school and LEA also widely named?
		
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Then it would have been reliant on someone making a referral based on what they had seen.
But this may never have happened if they didn't know she was a teacher.  Such is the power of media, that what took place has been brought to the forefront.  And that can only be a good thing.


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## Pearlsasinger (26 January 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			But the decision wasn't made by the whole country..  And what the media have written about would have been disregarded.  The decision would have been made up with a panel of professionals who would have thoroughly investigated the allegations, decided if it met the threshold for further input, taken into account the history of the POI, any previous employment issues, any police record and made a decision based on parameters set by a safeguarding committee.
		
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You write as if you were privy to the minutes of any meetings. You were not.  Neither, when you have taken minutes at a LA level safeguarding meeting, have you been present to hear the outcome of any meeting with the employee, their union rep and their employer.  You also seem to forget that in schools The Governing Body, who acts as the employer, has the last word, the LA will advise but the Govs don't have to act on that advice and in many 'grey area' situations, where no harm has come to an actual child, will give a warning. Dismissal for an incident in which no child was harmed would be  an extreme measure and could well see the employer in an ET.
HR advice usually is to avoid ET situations.


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## Birker2020 (26 January 2022)

Pearlsasinger said:



			You write as if you were privy to the minutes of any meetings.
		
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That's purely your interpretation.

Why do you think she lost her job then?  Lets hear your explanation.
Of course I knew the outcomes to the meetings I attended.  What a ridiculous thing to say.


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## conniegirl (26 January 2022)

Pearlsasinger said:



			You write as if you were privy to the minutes of any meetings. You were not.  Neither, when you have taken minutes at a LA level safeguarding meeting, have you been present to hear the outcome of any meeting with the employee, their union rep and their employer.  You also seem to forget that in schools The Governing Body, who acts as the employer, has the last word, the LA will advise but the Govs don't have to act on that advice and in many 'grey area' situations, where no harm has come to an actual child, will give a warning. Dismissal for an incident in which no child was harmed would be  an extreme measure and could well see the employer in an ET.
		
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This, but i will also add the Birker seems to have decided that the woman was fired due to safeguarding issues after safeguarding meetings etc.
It may never have got that far, she may have resigned or been fired for bringing the school into disrepute rather than safeguarding


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## Birker2020 (26 January 2022)

conniegirl said:



			This, but i will also add the Birker seems to have decided that the woman was fired due to safeguarding issues after safeguarding meetings etc.
It may never have got that far, she may have resigned or been fired for bringing the school into disrepute rather than safeguarding
		
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I haven't 'decided' anything.  She may have been fired for bringing the school into disrepute I agree.
The news reports clearly say she was suspended and then fired.

I wonder what her being asked to leave her voluntary role with the pony club has to do with it though?


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## YorksG (26 January 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			I wonder what her being asked to leave her voluntary role with the pony club has to do with it though?
		
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That could well have been a a result of the pony club wishing to distance themselves from the social media witch hunt.


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## Birker2020 (26 January 2022)

YorksG said:



			That could well have been a a result of the pony club wishing to distance themselves from the social media witch hunt.
		
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Possibly, who knows


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## Winters100 (26 January 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			But the role that the person in question did meant she was surrounded by children all day long.  THerefore the transference of risk is greater.
		
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To me this is just a totally theoretical risk.  Would any of us, based upon what we have seen, be seriously afraid for the safety of our children if she was their teacher?  I just cannot see any way that I would be worried about it.  Really if she was dismissed because of this then I would view it as a hysterical overreaction.


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## YorksG (26 January 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			Possibly, who knows
		
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Quite, and yet you are so sure that you know the rest of it and you implied that she was asked to step down, as a result of safeguarding concerns.


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## cornbrodolly (26 January 2022)

I have sent an enquiry to RSPCA via therir website,outlining my concerns as to why they are bringing this case.


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## skinnydipper (26 January 2022)

The Royal Society for the _Prevention of Cruelty to Animals_ had no choice but to take action.  What message would it have sent to animal abusers if they had done nothing?

The fact that you may have seen worse abuse doesn't make what she did any better.


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## Birker2020 (26 January 2022)

YorksG said:



			Quite, and yet you are so sure that you know the rest of it and you implied that she was asked to step down, as a result of safeguarding concerns.
		
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Look you please yourself what you want to believe, I couldn't care less. I am only telling you what usually happens *if* there are any potential safeguarding issues because she is in a position of trust with her role. 

If an allegation arises about a member of staff outside work and this could present as a risk of harm/risk to children for whom the member of staff is responsible for through their role then it is the norm for a position of trust meeting to be held and the level of risk of harm assessed.

She could have been sacked for bringing the school into disrepute.  She could have been sacked for other reasons and she could have been asked to leave her voluntary position with the pony club in case she brought them into direpute.  I've never disagreed with any of that.


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## meleeka (26 January 2022)

skinnydipper said:



			The Royal Society for the _Prevention of Cruelty to Animals_ had no choice but to take action.  What message would it have sent to animal abusers if they had done nothing?

The fact that you may have seen worse abuse doesn't make what she did any better.
		
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I just wish they’d act on things that didn’t make the evening news too.  Harry Evans was ‘investigated’ but he’s still abusing horses and posting it online.  The travellers round here are still racing with lame and injured horses in full view of the RSPCA who turn up to monitor proceedings.    It’s very sad that donations are more important than animal welfare


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## Birker2020 (26 January 2022)

meleeka said:



			I just wish they’d act on things that didn’t make the evening news too.  Harry Evans was ‘investigated’ but he’s still abusing horses and posting it online.  The travellers round here are still racing with lame and injured horses in full view of the RSPCA who turn up to monitor proceedings.    It’s very sad that donations are more important than animal welfare 

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I suppose they have guidelines and thresholds to meet and if they don't think they have enough evidence to bring forth a criminal conviction based on the evidence that they have then they won't bother. It doesn't make it right but they can only work with what they have.


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## eahotson (26 January 2022)

Like everyone else I do not like what this woman did and of course I think she should be punished but her punishment is disproportionate to what she did.Her actions, especially in front of what was probably her own child was very unpleasant BUT the pony looked to me to be healthy and generally well cared for.I wish I could say that about all horses.
I was at a fairly high profile show and saw a quite well know show jumper in the ring up end his stick,lean over and deal his horse a vicious blow across the ribs for stopping at a jump.He did that in full view of the audience including no doubt children and young teenagers who may well have thought that if he did it it was perfectly acceptable.He wasn't even called to the judges tent.I wrote to the BSJA and complained and pointed out that it was all on camera.They did say they would investigate but I heard no more.Probably he received the lightest of wrist taps.He certainly wasn't suspended,investigated by the RSPCA or anything else.
I hope in future that if behaviour like that can be caught on camera that the RSPCA will investigate.If nothing else to show fairness.


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## meleeka (26 January 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			I suppose they have guidelines and thresholds to meet and if they don't think they have enough evidence to bring forth a criminal conviction based on the evidence that they have then they won't bother. It doesn't make it right but they can only work with what they have.
		
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This is what they’d like us to believe.  My personal experience is that they generally do as little as possible, while making it look like they care.  That would be ok if they weren’t expected to do the job of the local authorities and the police too.  The fact that a charity is masquerading as the police force for animals and that those who are responsible for upholding the law are happy with that is just wrong.


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## conniegirl (26 January 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			I suppose they have guidelines and thresholds to meet and if they don't think they have enough evidence to bring forth a criminal conviction based on the evidence that they have then they won't bother. It doesn't make it right but they can only work with what they have.
		
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No they just want soft targets.

I reported 2 starved horses to them, they were skeletal and there was a pony who had died of starvation in the same field. 
My Vet said it was one of the worst cases he had seen (i called him because they were loose on the road so i herded them into my stables)

The horses and my vet were both in my stables when the RSPCA inspector turned up. Inspector decided they knew more that the vet and there was no evidence of starvation. 
Refused to do anything about it.


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## meleeka (26 January 2022)

conniegirl said:



			No they just want soft targets.

I reported 2 starved horses to them, they were skeletal and there was a pony who had died of starvation in the same field. 
My Vet said it was one of the worst cases he had seen (i called him because they were loose on the road so i herded them into my stables)

The horses and my vet were both in my stables when the RSPCA inspector turned up. Inspector decided they knew more that the vet and there was no evidence of starvation. 
Refused to do anything about it.
		
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That’s been similar to my experiences too.  None of the severe welfare cases we hear about happen overnight and I’ll bet the RSPCA we’re aware of all of them.


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## eahotson (26 January 2022)

conniegirl said:



			No they just want soft targets.

I reported 2 starved horses to them, they were skeletal and there was a pony who had died of starvation in the same field.
My Vet said it was one of the worst cases he had seen (i called him because they were loose on the road so i herded them into my stables)

The horses and my vet were both in my stables when the RSPCA inspector turned up. Inspector decided they knew more that the vet and there was no evidence of starvation.
Refused to do anything about it.
		
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Disgraceful.


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## Gallop_Away (26 January 2022)

Let's be honest if this hadn't generated such a social media poo storm, I doubt things would have gone so far. Now thanks to the trial by social media gang the woman has lost her job and had her life turned upside down.
I'm still not quite sure what the sabs were filming for in the first place. I'm not sure what evidence of "illegal hunting" they had hoped to film while people were loading their horses to go home for the day, but anyway that's not the point.
A proportional response would have been that she was banned from the hunt and I can understand the local PC wanting to take action to.
I do not think the woman deserved to loose her job or face prosecution over this. What she did was wrong but people make mistakes.
The RSPCA have simply selected her as an easy target and run with it. I feel very sorry for her.


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## Errin Paddywack (26 January 2022)

My old, very down to earth, vet told me about being rung by the local RSPCA inspector in the middle of the night.  Apparently the Inspector had been rung by an elderly lady as her dog had died and she was in distress and wanted it taken away.  He wanted my vet to go and collect it.  His reply was 'why don't you go?' to which the Inspector replied that he would have to get up out of his warm bed and go.  I think you can imagine what the reply to that was.  Not sure what did happen in the end.  I do know my vet had no time for the RSPCA at all as he had witnessed too many of these sort of things.


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## honetpot (26 January 2022)

stangs said:



			Don't know much about cattle management so can't comment, but an electric prod doesn't sound like a tool I'd want to use if anything better was available.

Despise electric collars and think there's no place for them in 99.9% of cases where they're used. I'd say they're about the same as what this woman did (depending on the voltage), but you can't really compare them given different animals, different parts of the body, and different contexts.
		
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 I agree, but you are still inflicting pain, as a discipline, deterrent. So is the cruelty bit, that inflicted pain, or the degree of pain, and was the use justifiable, how long was the distress caused. If there was no injury, and it's so long after the event even if there was, was it caused by the blow.
  Where does the ball of string end?  Do you end up banning every form of control or restraint?.


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## tristar (26 January 2022)

how fascinating that what she did has generated lots of posts, while mule`s thread about bloodying of 4 years olds mouths in competing and training, which i find utterly shocking has so few responses

funny old place the horse world

and i don`t like what she did, the worst part is the fact the pony did nothing  wrong, from what i saw of the video

 whilst realizing this thread is about does the punishment fit the crime


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## BeansNsausages (26 January 2022)

tristar said:



			how fascinating that what she did has generated lots of posts, while mule`s thread about bloodying of 4 years olds mouths in competing and training, which i find utterly shocking has so few responses

funny old place the horse world
		
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That post is in the competition section which has far less traffic.


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## milliepops (26 January 2022)

not only that, but the person is not identified and has not been subject to a social media storm nor losing their job etc. it's hard to add much to that discussion except "that's rubbish" etc.


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## Pearlsasinger (26 January 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			That's purely your interpretation.

Why do you think she lost her job then?  Lets hear your explanation.
Of course I knew the outcomes to the meetings I attended.  What a ridiculous thing to say.
		
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You knew the outcome of the meetings that you  were the minute taker for but you were not apprised of the outcome of the disciplinary processes that the employees were subject to,  as that was not part of your role.


As a matter of interest, do you now consider yourself to be able to design buidlings,or do the job of a quantity surveyor?


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## Arzada (26 January 2022)

skinnydipper said:



			The Royal Society for the _Prevention of Cruelty to Animals_ had no choice but to take action.  What message would it have sent to animal abusers if they had done nothing?

The fact that you may have seen worse abuse doesn't make what she did any better.
		
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In this case then I'd suggest that it is time that the RSPCA set up an online reporting site so that any of us can film and submit footage and they can get on with prosecuting all offenders. In the meantime we could upload the same footage to eg YouTube, Facebook, Twitter to generate the social media uprising which is clearly essential to the RSPCA decision to go to court because apparently they have to be seen to take action. Interestingly dashcam footage of road traffic offences/dangerous situations submitted to the Police should not be uploaded to social media before the outcome is known in order not to prejudice any case.


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## dorsetladette (26 January 2022)

conniegirl said:



			No they just want soft targets.

I reported 2 starved horses to them, they were skeletal and there was a pony who had died of starvation in the same field.
My Vet said it was one of the worst cases he had seen (i called him because they were loose on the road so i herded them into my stables)

The horses and my vet were both in my stables when the RSPCA inspector turned up. Inspector decided they knew more that the vet and there was no evidence of starvation.
Refused to do anything about it.
		
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I've had similar. A dozen starving ponies in an acres or less with no shelter/ hay etc only an automatic water trough. on our track on the way in to our field. Reported numerous times to RSPCA, they come and look put a note on the gate and do no more. A laminitic pony in our field comes down with an abscess over night, poulticed and farrier contacted. They were on the phone that same afternoon demanding a vet attend in their presence due to reports of neglect. My vet pointed out that we had done the correct thing and confirmed pony was prone to foot problems but was improving since being in our care. Vet also pointed out the ponies in the field on the lane and inspector dismissed the vets comments as 'they had already investigated those ponies and found no issues' - not long after this (2 months maybe) a pony in that field went down and we couldn't get it up, it was put to sleep and a small charity ended up taking the rest. Really sad and never needed to happen. 

I don't condone what the woman did, but RSPCA are just going for low hanging fruit.


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## mini_b (26 January 2022)

These are the 2 offences …

Moulds caused ‘unnecessary suffering’ to Bruce by ‘kicking and hitting’ him.

She also did not take reasonable steps to ‘protect the animal from pain, suffering, injury or disease’

the amount of footage we have seen from notorious, even prolific horse abusers - I think should be sent to the paper as well then! 
RSPCA not prosecuting Harry Evans is a f*cking joke considering the above. 

honestly it absolutely sickens me - trial by social media or what.

i don’t have twitter but someone should tweet the RSPCA with a link to Harry’s videos (if they are around still!) and ask if they are going to act on this as well?


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## Birker2020 (26 January 2022)

Pearlsasinger said:



			You knew the outcome of the meetings that you  were the minute taker for but you were not apprised of the outcome of the disciplinary processes that the employees were subject to,  as that was not part of your role.


As a matter of interest, do you now consider yourself to be able to design buidlings,or do the job of a quantity surveyor?
		
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why you feel the need to constantly ridicule, oppose and undermine me over and over again says more about you than me.


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## honetpot (26 January 2022)

tristar said:



			how fascinating that what she did has generated lots of posts, while mule`s thread about bloodying of 4 years olds mouths in competing and training, which i find utterly shocking has so few responses

funny old place the horse world

and i don`t like what she did, the worst part is the fact the pony did nothing  wrong, from what i saw of the video

whilst realizing this thread is about does the punishment fit the crime
		
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  I didn't look because I am so fed up with sticking an extra gadget or a bit of metal in or on a horse, unfortunately seems to be normal. It's prolonged exposure to pain or discomfort, which it can not evade in the name of training, or sport. 
  In this case, you could see on video what ever harm was caused. When you look at a picture of say the 17thC and 18thC, you used to think we wouldn't use that bit or spurs, now I just think if they could get away with it, they would.


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## Fellewell (26 January 2022)

stangs said:



			They're making an example of her because the story went viral. That said, I don't know what they think the case will achieve?
		
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The story went viral because they were desperate to link it to hunting (legal trail hunting at that). Ricky Gervais retweeted the video to his 14 million followers and Chris Packham in his role as vice president of the RSPCA ordered them to act on it.


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## CanteringCarrot (26 January 2022)

What exactly is the agenda and purpose of the RSPCA. I mean really.


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## YorksG (26 January 2022)

Fellewell said:



			The story went viral because they were desperate to link it to hunting (legal trail hunting at that). Ricky Gervais retweeted the video to his 14 million followers and Chris Packham in his role as vice president of the RSPCA ordered them to act on it.
		
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If that is Packhams role within the organisation, then his statement about tweeting the video to get the rspcas attention, was disingenuous at best, a downright lie at worst.


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## dorsetladette (26 January 2022)

Fellewell said:



			The story went viral because they were desperate to link it to hunting (legal trail hunting at that). Ricky Gervais retweeted the video to his 14 million followers and Chris Packham in his role as vice president of the RSPCA ordered them to act on it.
		
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And we all know how much Chris Packham loves hunting and horses/ponies in general. Wasn't long ago that he was campaigning to remove all the new forest ponies from the forest.


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## sunnyone (26 January 2022)

Ok here's  here's my two pennorth. I think I see both sides of the argument for and against hunting, but I have no sympathy for this person. The Cottesmore did the right thing by getting rid of her asap as the legal sport of hunting currently has a bad reputation in the public eye.
However,

1. How come the incident was filmed by the Sabs? Balance of probabilités leads me to think they were aware that something similar might just happen because it's happened before. Well done them for being in the right place at the right time.

2. The RSPCA might have been awaiting evidence to allow them to deter others from simply thinking they could get away with mistreatment. Presumably the police rejected taking any action.

3. A criminal conviction has to be declared in job applications, would you want her to be able to work with animals/children / vulnerable adults? Without a formal record she could do.

4. Her actions brought her own professional behavioural standards (teaching) into question as well as sullying the school's reputation. Hence after investigation she was dismissed, but may still be a "qualified teacher" due to no criminal record.
If somebody cannot control their frustrations then they have no place being in a position of a trust.


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## lannerch (26 January 2022)

tristar said:



			how fascinating that what she did has generated lots of posts, while mule`s thread about bloodying of 4 years olds mouths in competing and training, which i find utterly shocking has so few responses

funny old place the horse world

and i don`t like what she did, the worst part is the fact the pony did nothing  wrong, from what i saw of the video

whilst realizing this thread is about does the punishment fit the crime
		
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I saw mules friend and it was shocking especially as I know mule is brilliant at bringing on youngsters and whose opinion I value. The lack of responses compared to this thread is also got a lot to do with the fact that mule posted in the competition forum which does not have the footfall of here.


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## Birker2020 (26 January 2022)

sunnyone said:



			Ok here's  here's my two pennorth. I think I see both sides of the argument for and against hunting, but I have no sympathy for this person. The Cottesmore did the right thing by getting rid of her asap as the legal sport of hunting currently has a bad reputation in the public eye.
However,

1. How come the incident was filmed by the Sabs? Balance of probabilités leads me to think they were aware that something similar might just happen because it's happened before. Well done them for being in the right place at the right time.

2. The RSPCA might have been awaiting evidence to allow them to deter others from simply thinking they could get away with mistreatment. Presumably the police rejected taking any action.

3. A criminal conviction has to be declared in job applications, would you want her to be able to work with animals/children / vulnerable adults? Without a formal record she could do.

4. Her actions brought her own professional behavioural standards (teaching) into question as well as sullying the school's reputation. Hence after investigation she was dismissed, but may still be a "qualified teacher" due to no criminal record.
If somebody cannot control their frustrations then they have no place being in a position of a trust.
		
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100% on all this


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## Gallop_Away (26 January 2022)

sunnyone said:



			1. How come the incident was filmed by the Sabs? Balance of probabilités leads me to think they were aware that something similar might just happen because it's happened before. Well done them for being in the right place at the right time.
		
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Or very convenient depending on how you look at it......


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## ycbm (26 January 2022)

sunnyone said:



			1. How come the incident was filmed by the Sabs?
		
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They film constantly when they are out otherwise they get accused of being violent and breaking the law themselves and can also be the victim of nasty assaults.

Some sabs also behave very badly,  but there is nothing sinister about them having singled her out to film.  She just happened to be there. 
 .


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## conniegirl (26 January 2022)

Gallop_Away said:



			Or very convenient depending on how you look at it......
		
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Or they wound her up to the point she just wanted to get out of there and get her children safe and away from any potential blow up as fast as physically possible, the pony getting loose may well have been the final straw. Fear makes people do strange and uncharacteristic things.

I don’t condone what she did however i do think the punishment is disproportionate.

It would be like being slightly over the limit but instead of getting a speed awareness course you lose your licence, get locked up, lose everything you have and your family get dragged into it to.


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## Gallop_Away (26 January 2022)

ycbm said:



			They film constantly when they are out otherwise they get accused of being violent and breaking the law themselves and can also be the victim of nasty assaults.

Some sabs also behave very badly,  but there is nothing sinister about them having singled her out to film.  She just happened to be there.
.
		
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Sorry but I must disagree with you there. Sabs film as an intimidation tactic. They were focused on her and her children before anything kicked off with the horse. 
I've experienced first hand how they will try and intimidate and wind people up to get a reaction. Then conveniently have recording equipment on them when they get the reaction they seek.
If they simply submitted the footage to the authorities for investigation that would be one thing but no its plastered all over social media for their gaggle of baying followers to rip to shreds. Images of children and all. 
I'm not condoning what she did towards the pony, but if there was a bunch of masked randomers filming my kids I would want to load up and get the hell out of there as quickly as I could to.


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## Gallop_Away (26 January 2022)

conniegirl said:



			Or they wound her up to the point she just wanted to get out of there and get her children safe and away from any potential blow up as fast as physically possible, the pony getting loose may well have been the final straw. Fear makes people do strange and uncharacteristic things.

I don’t condone what she did however i do think the punishment is disproportionate.

It would be like being slightly over the limit but instead of getting a speed awareness course you lose your licence, get locked up, lose everything you have and your family get dragged into it to.
		
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My thoughts exactly conniegirl


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## smolmaus (26 January 2022)

If she had lost her temper and slapped a person (let's say a big fella who is more than capable of defending himself and took no real hurt) would people still give her the "oh but she might have had a really bad day" excuse? Of course not. 

I said to myself I wouldn't comment on this again but the extents to which people will stretch to excuse or mitigate her behaviour is still wild 😂


Gallop_Away said:



			I'm not condoning what she did towards the pony, but if there was a bunch of masked randomers filming my kids I would want to load up and get the hell out of there as quickly as I could to.
		
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Would you make sure and take the time to punch and kick your horse before you left though? (Of course you wouldn't!)


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## ycbm (26 January 2022)

Gallop_Away said:



			Sorry but I must disagree with you there. Sabs film as an intimidation tactic. They were focused on her and her children before anything kicked off with the horse. 
I've experienced first hand how they will try and intimidate and wind people up to get a reaction. Then conveniently have recording equipment on them when they get the reaction they seek.
If they simply submitted the footage to the authorities for investigation that would be one thing but no its plastered all over social media for their gaggle of baying followers to rip to shreds. Images of children and all. 
I'm not condoning what she did towards the pony, but if there was a bunch of masked randomers filming my kids I would want to load up and get the hell out of there as quickly as I could to.
		
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I think it's more important  to argue against the point I was arguing against.  The post I responded to was making a strong suggestion that she was being filmed because the people filming knew that she was in the habit of hitting  ponies.

I think that suggestion is probably  libellous and certainly unfounded.  
.


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## ycbm (26 January 2022)

smolmaus said:



			If she had lost her temper and slapped a person (let's say a big fella who is more than capable of defending himself and took no real hurt) would people still give her the "oh but she might have had a really bad day" excuse? Of course not.
		
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The law would.  Provocation is a recognised mitigation in sentencing for assault.  
.


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## Gallop_Away (26 January 2022)

smolmaus said:



			If she had lost her temper and slapped a person (let's say a big fella who is more than capable of defending himself and took no real hurt) would people still give her the "oh but she might have had a really bad day" excuse? Of course not.

I said to myself I wouldn't comment on this again but the extents to which people will stretch to excuse or mitigate her behaviour is still wild 😂

Would you make sure and take the time to punch and kick your horse before you left though? (Of course you wouldn't!)
		
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I say in the post that you quoted that I do not condone her actions but people make mistakes. I don’t think the punishment fits the crime.


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## laura_nash (26 January 2022)

conniegirl said:



			It would be like being slightly over the limit but instead of getting a speed awareness course you lose your licence, get locked up, lose everything you have and your family get dragged into it to.
		
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More like being a bit over the alcohol limit or driving tired and being unlucky enough to cause something dreadful.  Lots of people do it and get away with it, but wrong place and wrong time means you pay 100x worse for the same action.  Unfortunate but life isn't fair.  Shouldn't have done it in the first place.


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## Gallop_Away (26 January 2022)

ycbm said:



			I think it's more important  to argue against the point I was arguing against.  The post I responded to was making a strong suggestion that she was being filmed because the people filming knew that she was in the habit of hitting  ponies.

I think that suggestion is probably  libellous and certainly unfounded. 
.
		
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Now that is a very good point.....


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## smolmaus (26 January 2022)

ycbm said:



			The law would.  Provocation is a recognised mitigation in sentencing for assault. 
.
		
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Well in this hypothetical the slapped man did as much to "provoke" as the horse did, which is to be vaguely in the wrong place. I don't see a court taking too much time over that. 


Gallop_Away said:



			I say in the post that you quoted that I do not condone her actions but people make mistakes. I don’t think the punishment fits the crime.
		
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The excuse of her being scared or frightened that you seem to be giving credence to is implausible based on her behaviour, is what I was trying to point out.


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## YorksG (26 January 2022)

smolmaus said:



			Well in this hypothetical the slapped man did as much to "provoke" as the horse did, which is to be vaguely in the wrong place. I don't see a court taking too much time over that.

The excuse of her being scared or frightened that you seem to be giving credence to is implausible based on her behaviour, is what I was trying to point out.
		
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So do you agree with the vilification, on social media, the interest by main stream media, the total disruption of her life and that of her family? Do you believe that the reaction is proportionate?


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## Gallop_Away (26 January 2022)

smolmaus said:



			Well in this hypothetical the slapped man did as much to "provoke" as the horse did, which is to be vaguely in the wrong place. I don't see a court taking too much time over that.

The excuse of her being scared or frightened that you seem to be giving credence to is implausible based on her behaviour, is what I was trying to point out.
		
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How is it implausible exactly?...how can you say how people will react under stress? 

Again I am not condoning her actions. Yes it was wrong and should have resulted in a ban from the hunt and pony club....but to have her face and her children's faces plastered all over social media, her place of work named, to loose her job, be hounded on social media and the press, and now to face prosecution!? That goes way beyond her offence in my opinion.


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## smolmaus (26 January 2022)

YorksG said:



			So do you agree with the vilification, on social media, the interest by main stream media, the total disruption of her life and that of her family? Do you believe that the reaction is proportionate?
		
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I don't think I have ever said that. 

I think the only comment I have made on the subject was that if it hadn't been made available publicly that it probably would have been swept under the rug entirely which is also not the correct outcome in my opinion. I am not going to answer for the behaviour of lunatics who like to chuck abuse at people on twitter as that has absolutely zero to do with me. It isn't a binary choice between thinking she should maybe be allowed to hit her horses if she is stressed vs getting the torches and pitchforks out.


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## smolmaus (26 January 2022)

Gallop_Away said:



			How is it implausible exactly?...how can you say how people will react under stress?

Again I am not condoning her actions. Yes it was wrong and should have resulted in a ban from the hunt and pony club....but to have her face and her children's faces plastered all over social media, her place of work named, to loose her job, be hounded on social media and the press, and now to face prosecution!? That goes way beyond her offence in my opinion.
		
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If (and it's a big IF made up on the previous thread) she was afraid for her children being filmed I just don't think a reasonable person would a) give the sabs something to look at and report or b) take up time punching her horse when it would have been quicker to just load him herself. I just don't find that plausible, therefore the mitigating excuse of "the sabs made her do it by being there" doesn't hold any water with me.


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## Gallop_Away (26 January 2022)

smolmaus said:



			If (and it's a big IF made up on the previous thread) she was afraid for her children being filmed I just don't think a reasonable person would a) give the sabs something to look at and report or b) take up time punching her horse when it would have been quicker to just load him herself. I just don't find that plausible, therefore the mitigating excuse of "the sabs made her do it by being there" doesn't hold any water with me.
		
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I am not saying the sabs made her do it. Thats ridiculous. But the fact is they were there and I have seen first hand how quickly they use intimidation to escalate a situation.
We do not know what had happened before and as conniegirl pointed out the pony getting loose may have been the tipping point.
That doesn't make her actions ok but it may provide some context.
I'm also curious as you also say you don't condone trial by social media, what punishment would you deem appropriate?


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## ycbm (26 January 2022)

Deleted not worth it.


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## paddy555 (26 January 2022)

conniegirl said:



			No they just want soft targets.

I reported 2 starved horses to them, they were skeletal and there was a pony who had died of starvation in the same field.
My Vet said it was one of the worst cases he had seen (i called him because they were loose on the road so i herded them into my stables)

The horses and my vet were both in my stables when the RSPCA inspector turned up. Inspector decided they knew more that the vet and there was no evidence of starvation.
Refused to do anything about it.
		
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yes I'm afraid they want a soft target and maximum publicity. This woman hitting the horse AND the hunt. What luck. 

I've reported similar as you to them and the same useless result. I wouldn't have minded but they returned them to an owner who had already been prosecuted and  was already banned from horse keeping for 10 years. Go figure.


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## blitznbobs (26 January 2022)

The RSPCA are not a welfare organisation, they are a political lobbying body with powers similar to the police — it is genuinely scary how Much power they have … they certainly shouldnt be classed as a charity and should be scrutinised for taking money under false pretences. How many people give them cash so that they can help stray cats and dogs as per their adverts — yet millions of pounds are spent trying some very dubious cases which are far more about political views than welfare.


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## DabDab (26 January 2022)

If she had slapped a person I very much doubt there would have been the online storm there has been. Maybe if she had kicked and punched a person, but even then I doubt that it would have gone viral.

Completely different context of course, but just thinking about acts seen on high profile media - Fights breakout on rugby pitches all the time, sometimes reciprocal, sometimes with a clear aggressor, and nobody really bats and eye. And the there is some instances of biting in football (always one sided), and I think sometimes they might get a short term ban.


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## southerncomfort (26 January 2022)

dorsetladette said:



			And we all know how much Chris Packham loves hunting and horses/ponies in general. Wasn't long ago that he was campaigning to remove all the new forest ponies from the forest.
		
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😯 I didn't know that!!


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## honetpot (26 January 2022)

blitznbobs said:



			with powers similar to the police
		
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 They do not have special powers, they have no right of entry, and the quasi uniform is just to fool people into thinking they do.
http://the-shg.org/The Law and the RSPCA.htm


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## Upthecreek (26 January 2022)

What do people think the general public would think of the school and the pony club if they had not taken action to disassociate themselves from this woman? I am not a teacher but I can 100% guarantee I would lose my job if I was filmed doing what she did.

Would it be acceptable to the animal loving general public for the RSPCA not to investigate the case? (let’s not forget this was not just one reactive slap).


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## YorksG (26 January 2022)

Upthecreek said:



			What do people think the general public would think of the school and the pony club if they had not taken action to disassociate themselves from this woman? I am not a teacher but I can 100% guarantee I would lose my job if I was filmed doing what she did.

Would it be acceptable to the animal loving general public for the RSPCA not to investigate the case? (let’s not forget this was not just one reactive slap).
		
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The majority of the general public would have forgotten all about this incident, if they'd ever known about it, had Packham et al not whipped up the mob


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## Upthecreek (26 January 2022)

YorksG said:



			The majority of the general public would have forgotten all about this incident, if they'd ever known about it, had Packham etc al not whipped up the mob
		
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Yes of course. But once it got out there I don’t think the organisations had any choice but to take action. It’s very easy for us to sit at home in our armchairs and say the punishment doesn’t fit the crime, but presumably she went through her employer’s disciplinary process and the outcome was termination of her employment. I imagine the pony club followed their process to get rid of her as well. So for everyone saying the punishment doesn’t fit the crime, it does if her behaviour was in breech of her contract of employment or deemed to be an unacceptable example of how to treat horses to members of the pony club.


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## Lexi_ (26 January 2022)

I don’t really care to watch the video again, but wasn’t she standing round the front of the box, chatting away to other people and not even watching while the kid rather badly tried to load the pony? Kid feebly let go of the pony, it calmly wandered round to its mates and she then proceeded to hit it multiple times in the head?

That doesn’t exactly equal with the spin some posters are making, that she was so wound up or under pressure by sabs that she was desperate to protect the kids and get home.


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## Pearlsasinger (26 January 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			why you feel the need to constantly ridicule, oppose and undermine me over and over again says more about you than me.
		
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Nothing personal, I don't like misinformation being spread on SM


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## honetpot (26 January 2022)

Upthecreek said:



			What do people think the general public would think of the school and the pony club if they had not taken action to disassociate themselves from this woman? I am not a teacher but I can 100% guarantee I would lose my job if I was filmed doing what she did.

Would it be acceptable to the animal loving general public for the RSPCA not to investigate the case? (let’s not forget this was not just one reactive slap).
		
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  I just do not get the point, it's not nice to watch, but the pony was not in any danger. This case will cost thousands of pounds and I do not think it will achieve much in welfare terms, but I suppose it will raise money from donors. 
  I used to have a pony mare who could reverse a speed, kicking out with every stride, one of those connecting could break a leg, and that's normal horse behaviour. Has anyone been nutted by a pony that didn't want to do something, one flick of the head, and you could be missing your teeth.


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## smolmaus (26 January 2022)

Gallop_Away said:



			I'm also curious as you also say you don't condone trial by social media, what punishment would you deem appropriate?
		
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It doesn't matter what I think is appropriate. As soon as I give an opinion that's me part of the kangaroo court, isn't it? Upthecreek has it exactly right that it would be up to her employer, the pony club and her hunt.


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## SusieT (26 January 2022)

If we don't make an example of someone who is happy to behave like that as an adult in public - what do we condone? Many people have been taken to court for similar behaviour towards dogs - this is no different.

It also means that even if she gets no custodial sentence if she is seen doing the same again there is a recorded precedence to act on. 

I have very little sympathy. The animal did not ask to be treated like that.


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## skinnydipper (26 January 2022)

honetpot said:



			I used to have a pony mare who could reverse a speed, kicking out with every stride, one of those connecting could break a leg, and that's normal horse behaviour. Has anyone been nutted by a pony that didn't want to do something, one flick of the head, and you could be missing your teeth.
		
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Did the pony in the video do any of that?


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## MagicMelon (26 January 2022)

Excellent, delighted they are. Disgusting behaviour from this woman, she deserves everything she gets. I hope she is banned from keeping animals (and kids!) for life.


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## MagicMelon (26 January 2022)

honetpot said:



			I just do not get the point, it's not nice to watch, but the pony was not in any danger.
		
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The horse was in danger, it got punched in the face!  How is that not cruelty?  She's a nasty person, had my sons teacher done something like this, I 100% would demand she was fired, I would not want someone like that around my children let alone my animals.  Why on earth should a person be allowed to do this and it go unpunished, Id worry what you did to your pony!


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## honetpot (26 January 2022)

skinnydipper said:



			Did the pony in the video do any of that?
		
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 No, but I wish I had the video of me nearly being knocked out, by a pony that didn't want to be tied up while I brushed him, or the same pony carefully placing his hoof on my daughters foot, when before he moved her foot was nowhere near his hoof. Or the time he bit the nice judge who was giving him a pat. I can not say any of these aggressions were provoked, it was just spur of the moment. When he nearly knocked me out, I got a real wallop, seeing stars and feeling dizzy.
 But do not worry, he was not sacked, and is fighting biting fit, at twenty six.


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## skinnydipper (26 January 2022)

honetpot said:



			No, but I wish I had the video of me nearly being knocked out, by a pony that didn't want to be tied up while I brushed him, or the same pony carefully placing his hoof on my daughters foot, when before he moved her foot was nowhere near his hoof. Or the time he bit the nice judge who was giving him a pat. I can not say any of these aggressions were provoked, it was just spur of the moment. When he nearly knocked me out, I got a real wallop, seeing stars and feeling dizzy.
But do not worry, he was not sacked, and is fighting biting fit, at twenty six.
		
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Sorry HP, I really don't feel that is relevant to the case being discussed.


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## skinnydipper (26 January 2022)

I feel like any moment someone is going to come along and say "who hasn't done that to their pony at some time".


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## ycbm (26 January 2022)

MagicMelon said:



			Why on earth should a person be allowed to do this and it go unpunished
		
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It hasn't gone unpunished. 
.


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## ycbm (26 January 2022)

MagicMelon said:



			Excellent, delighted they are. Disgusting behaviour from this woman, she deserves everything she gets. I hope she is banned from keeping animals (and kids!) for life.
		
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What do you want done to someone who actually damages an animal?  Hang them? 
.


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## ycbm (26 January 2022)

SusieT said:



			If we don't make an example of someone who is happy to behave like that as an adult in public - what do we condone?
		
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Nobody has condoned her behaviour and she has been punished.  
.


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## ycbm (26 January 2022)

SusieT said:



			Many people have been taken to court for similar behaviour towards dogs - this is no different
		
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For smacking a dog 3 or 4 times and leaving no mark?  I'm pretty sure there's never ever been a case in court of that.  
.


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## honetpot (26 January 2022)

skinnydipper said:



			Sorry HP, I really don't feel that is relevant to the case being discussed.
		
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  I think its about proportionality, you are at far more danger of being hurt by a horse, that's why should wear head protection and gloves when you handle them, than us using no equipment.  I can not think the horse was injured, and it's doubtful taking her to court will improve its welfare. There was no evidence to seize it on the day.
  I am sure when my cows had their hooves trimmed, they are held in a crate and tipped on their side, it looks terrible, anyone videoing could make it look bad, and I am sure they are stressed at the time, but that does not give a whole picture of how they are kept.


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## YorksG (26 January 2022)

MagicMelon said:



			Excellent, delighted they are. Disgusting behaviour from this woman, she deserves everything she gets. I hope she is banned from keeping animals (and kids!) for life.
		
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You would seriously see her children in care as a result of this?


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## minesadouble (26 January 2022)

I am actually shocked that anyone supports this prosecution. 

All I will say is that if that is the worst thing that ever happens to that pony in his entire life at the hands of humans then he is one damned lucky equine!! 

Way luckier than the millions of neglected/starving  ponies that are ignored by the RSPCA. 

As an organisation they actually make me sick!!


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## paddy555 (26 January 2022)

MagicMelon said:



			Excellent, delighted they are. Disgusting behaviour from this woman, she deserves everything she gets. I hope she is banned from keeping animals (and kids!) for life.
		
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and what would you do with real cruelty cases? hang draw and quarter them? 

for heaven's sake it wasn't the end of the world. If you really want to worry about cruelty go and look at starving horses, ones who can barely stand or even cannot stand for lack of care, curly toes, totally terrified wrecks, real cruelty cases and then compare the damage to them against the damage to that pony. 

Look in any collecting ring at kids hitting horses who won't jump or behind the horse lines where people think they cannot be seen. . I have seen far worse. Of course they should not hit them and neither should she have. 

She has set a poor example to the pony club and to any others especially in her role as a teacher but there is no evidence she has harmed a child so extrapolating hitting a pony to hitting kids is rubbish. 

This is a total waste of money by the RSPCA but perhaps this is all they are capable of.


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## Upthecreek (26 January 2022)

honetpot said:



			I just do not get the point, it's not nice to watch, but the pony was not in any danger. This case will cost thousands of pounds and I do not think it will achieve much in welfare terms, but I suppose it will raise money from donors.
  I used to have a pony mare who could reverse a speed, kicking out with every stride, one of those connecting could break a leg, and that's normal horse behaviour. Has anyone been nutted by a pony that didn't want to do something, one flick of the head, and you could be missing your teeth.
		
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The point is the organisations have to be seen to be doing something. Otherwise what is the point in having contracts of employment, codes of conduct etc.? If people can behave in a way that breaches those things with no consequences there is no point in having them. The horse in the video was stood still being punched and kicked. It was not behaving in a threatening and dangerous manner. In over 30 years of owning horses I can honestly say I have never punched a horse in the face or kicked it, so I struggle to understand where you are coming from.


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## BeansNsausages (26 January 2022)

MagicMelon said:



			Excellent, delighted they are. Disgusting behaviour from this woman, she deserves everything she gets. I hope she is banned from keeping animals (and kids!) for life.
		
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Can you imagine if you were in charge of our justice system? 

You would have your hands cut off for pinching a Refresher Bar.


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## minesadouble (26 January 2022)

This prosecution has nothing to do with animal welfare and everything to do with politics. 

Does anyone remember the Arab horses case, where they killed so many while ignoring offers of help with rehoming from the AHS and even the protestations of the man who actually shot them? 
I think that was the final straw for me.


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## Matafleur (26 January 2022)

MagicMelon said:



			Excellent, delighted they are. Disgusting behaviour from this woman, she deserves everything she gets. I hope she is banned from keeping animals (and kids!) for life.
		
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You'll be happy if she kills herself as a result of all this then will you? She'll deserve that too presumably?

Honestly, I never comment on this forum anymore but there really are a lot of holier than thou people on here. The woman has lost her job over this, among other things, and she and her family have been harrassed. Do her kids deserve that too? I would say she has paid enough now, her life is pretty ruined and I can't begin to imagine the toll on her mental health. I am pretty anti hunting but you'd be very naive not to see that this is the RSPCA capitalising on a situation to try and make themselves look good.

This was not a pleasant incident to see, the pony did not deserve it and she shouldn't have done it. Maybe she did deserve to be dismissed from her job and volunteer positions but this was not extreme and sustained cruelty that warrants a costly, private prosecution using charitable donations. There are far better things the RSPCA could be spending their money on.


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## windand rain (26 January 2022)

Sublime to rediculous comes to mind in some of these responses. I would also include the grossly overweight and ridden lame horses that need more help than that pony. You see it everywhere. Laminitis is epidemic but still ponies in particular look like house ends the notion of ad lib forage and standing at big bales is just as cruel as the odd swipe. She was wrong no doubt but so are those piling on with blatantly silly punishments. "She/He who is without sin may cast the first stone" compassion for others should also extend to our fellow humans education education education.


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## laura_nash (26 January 2022)

honetpot said:



			I think its about proportionality, you are at far more danger of being hurt by a horse, that's why should wear head protection and gloves when you handle them, than us using no equipment.  I can not think the horse was injured, and it's doubtful taking her to court will improve its welfare. There was no evidence to seize it on the day.
  I am sure when my cows had their hooves trimmed, they are held in a crate and tipped on their side, it looks terrible, anyone videoing could make it look bad, and I am sure they are stressed at the time, but that does not give a whole picture of how they are kept.
		
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I still have no idea what point you are trying to make here.  She attacked the pony for no reason, or no reason related to the pony anyway.  It has nothing to do with causing unavoidable stress to deliver routine treatment.  Have you actually watched the video?  No one made it "look bad", it was bad.  

That kind of unprovoked violence makes you more at risk of injury from a horse going forwards than handling and training it properly would so the stuff about the size and danger of the horse etc is also totally irrelevant.  Of course a horse can hurt you more than you can hurt it, doesn't make it okay for you to hurt it (unless it's absolutely necessary for self preservation, which clearly wasn't the case here and is usually due to human error in training or planning).

I don't think they are trying to seize it and as for seizing it on the day, I'm sorry but what?  

Neither of your last two posts make any sense to me in the context of this thread.


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## Upthecreek (26 January 2022)

windand rain said:



			Sublime to rediculous comes to mind in some of these responses. I would also include the grossly overweight and ridden lame horses that need more help than that pony. You see it everywhere. Laminitis is epidemic but still ponies in particular look like house ends the notion of ad lib forage and standing at big bales is just as cruel as the odd swipe. She was wrong no doubt but so are those piling on with blatantly silly punishments. "She/He who is without sin may cast the first stone" compassion for others should also extend to our fellow humans education education education.
		
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I don’t understand the need for comparison with starving horses or horses with laminitis or horses being smacked at competitions. All of us know those things are unacceptable. It is not helpful or relevant to this situation. The fact is, in this particular case, the behaviour of the woman in the video has been deemed to be unacceptable to her employer and the pony club and they have ended their associations with her as a consequence *of her behaviour.*

Do I think she should have had her employment terminated? Yes if the disciplinary process was correctly followed

Do I think her children are in danger and should be removed from her care? No

Do I think she should be threatened and vilified? No

Do I think she should be officially warned about her treatment of animals? Yes

Call it punishment, call it education; People need to realise that behaviour like that is not acceptable and has consequences, regardless of hypothetical mitigating factors about how the person *may* have been feeling  at the time which *may* have influenced their behaviour.


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## YorksG (26 January 2022)

Upthecreek said:



			I don’t understand the need for comparison with starving horses or horses with laminitis or horses being smacked at competitions. All of us know those things are unacceptable. It is not helpful or relevant to this situation. The fact is, in this particular case, the behaviour of the woman in the video has been deemed to be unacceptable to her employer and the pony club and they have ended their associations with her as a consequence *of her behaviour.*

Do I think she should have had her employment terminated? Yes if the disciplinary process was correctly followed

Do I think her children are in danger and should be removed from her care? No

Do I think she should be threatened and vilified? No

Do I think she should be officially warned about her treatment of animals? Yes

Call it punishment, call it education; People need to realise that behaviour like that is not acceptable and has consequences, regardless of hypothetical mitigating factors about how the person *may* have been feeling  at the time which *may* have influenced their behaviour.
		
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The reason for the comparison, is that this horse is unlikely to have any lasting harm as a result of the incident, whereas obese, laminitic horses do suffer tremendous harm. The rspca are seeing fit to prosecute this woman, but do nothing about ongoing cruelty to horses.


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## windand rain (26 January 2022)

No one has condoned her actions at all but she has been tried hung drawn and quartered by a biased social media court. Punishment for her crimes should follow a trial in a court of law the rest is in my view very damaging to the law of the land. If she is guilty to the extent of a caution or criminal record then she would and always will be unable to be cleared by the dbs. So no the vitriol is not justified as she has not been found guilty by the cbs prosecution


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## laura_nash (26 January 2022)

Matafleur said:



			You'll be happy if she kills herself as a result of all this then will you? She'll deserve that too presumably?

Honestly, I never comment on this forum anymore but there really are a lot of holier than thou people on here. The woman has lost her job over this, among other things, and she and her family have been harrassed. Do her kids deserve that too? I would say she has paid enough now, her life is pretty ruined and I can't begin to imagine the toll on her mental health. I am pretty anti hunting but you'd be very naive not to see that this is the RSPCA capitalising on a situation to try and make themselves look good.

This was not a pleasant incident to see, the pony did not deserve it and she shouldn't have done it. Maybe she did deserve to be dismissed from her job and volunteer positions but this was not extreme and sustained cruelty that warrants a costly, private prosecution using charitable donations. There are far better things the RSPCA could be spending their money on.
		
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I don't think it's acceptable for her or her kids to be harassed.  Unfortunately there are always nutters who take things too far when a mob gets whipped up.  The social media hysteria that is prevalent these days is a mystery to me and not a good thing.

As regards the prosecution, I don't think the RSPCA have ever claimed to be neutral or non-political.  They took out full page anti-hunting adverts at huge expense after all.  Sure there are better things (in my opinion) they could spend their money on, but it is their money after all.  They aren't tax payer funded.  I suspect most people who donate are aware of the political and anti hunting side and support it.  Certainly a lot of people in the horse world are aware of how often they are useless with equine issues.  I haven't donated to them for many, many years.

You could argue, and it's a good argument, that a lot of their role should be done by the police.   But then the police haven't time or funds to do their most fundamental stuff at the moment so that wouldn't go well.  Blame the government for that.

In the end it will be decided in court if she is guilty.  I don't think the argument that loads of other people are doing the same or worse and getting away with it makes it wrong to prosecute per se.  After all given rape prosecution figures in the UK you could make that argument for not doing anything about rape too.  

As I said before it's unfair she is being made an example of in this way, but life is unfair.  She gave the anti hunt campaigners exact the kind of ammunition that they were looking for, it's not really surprising they are making as much use of it as they can.


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## Upthecreek (26 January 2022)

YorksG said:



			The reason for the comparison, is that this horse is unlikely to have any lasting harm as a result of the incident, whereas obese, laminitic horses do suffer tremendous harm. The rspca are seeing fit to prosecute this woman, but do nothing about ongoing cruelty to horses.
		
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Yeah I get that, but unfortunately for this woman what she has done has been filmed so it’s handed to the RSPCA on a silver platter. There is no disputing that she committed the offence. Owning a fat horse is not against the law. Punching and kicking a horse is. It’s more about intent I think. What did she intend by punching and kicking the pony? What did someone intend by letting their horse get fat (not necessarily on purpose)?


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## laura_nash (26 January 2022)

windand rain said:



			No one has condoned her actions at all but she has been tried hung drawn and quartered by a biased social media court. Punishment for her crimes should follow a trial in a court of law the rest is in my view very damaging to the law of the land. If she is guilty to the extent of a caution or criminal record then she would and always will be unable to be cleared by the dbs. So no the vitriol is not justified as she has not been found guilty by the cbs prosecution
		
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Isn't the whole point of this thread that she is being taken to court and people think that is wrong?  So actually those people are arguing FOR the court of opinion and AGAINST that of the court of law.  They just think the court of opinion came down on the wrong side.  

Rightly or wrongly (and I think wrongly) in the UK bringing animal abuse to court has been done by the RSPCA for years now.  That they are taking her to court doesn't automatically mean she will be found guilty.  Maybe she will be found innocent and vindicated (though I find that unlikely given the video evidence).


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## Amymay (26 January 2022)

Lexi_ said:



			I don’t really care to watch the video again, but wasn’t she standing round the front of the box, chatting away to other people and not even watching while the kid rather badly tried to load the pony? Kid feebly let go of the pony, it calmly wandered round to its mates and she then proceeded to hit it multiple times in the head?
		
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Yep.


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## windand rain (26 January 2022)

Ah but is punching and kicking a horse an offence in law and if so why are the CPS not pursuing it. The RSPCA will bring a private prosecution at great expense as they have no more right than you to do so except they have the charity money to pay for it. It is time in my view that the RSPCA got back to doing what they were chartered to do to protect animals from harm by education and rescue if needed they are not there to prosecute but to protect which they rarely do unless they find soft targets. As a charity they should be banned from using the charities money to bring spurious private prosecutions and collate information to present to the CPS who will then either throw it out or progress it


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## Upthecreek (26 January 2022)

windand rain said:



			Ah but is punching and kicking a horse an offence in law and if so why are the CPS not pursuing it. The RSPCA will bring a private prosecution at great expense as they have no more right than you to do so except they have the charity money to pay for it. It is time in my view that the RSPCA got back to doing what they were chartered to do to protect animals from harm by education and rescue if needed they are not there to prosecute but to protect which they rarely do unless they find soft targets. As a charity they should be banned from using the charities money to bring spurious private prosecutions and collate information to present to the CPS who will then either throw it out or progress it
		
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I think the RSPCA has always prosecuted for deliberate acts of violence against animals?


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## SO1 (26 January 2022)

What she did was wrong, but when it comes down to it many horses are hit and kicked every day as part of normal riding in order to get them to do things or to stop them doing things. There is quite a lot of agressive riding and handling out there, competition seems to bring out the worst behaviour in a lot of people.

We all agree what she did was unacceptable but how does that feed into for example using a whip or a lot of leg to encourage a horse to jump or go forward from the leg or some of the training methods used in dressage by some people. 

The RSPCA are going to a bit variable as it depends on the local branch and I don't think they are always very brave, understandable in some cases as people who are aggressive towards animals are often aggressive towards people. 

If the RSPCA do nothing they are effectively saying to the millions of people who saw that video that it is ok to kick and punch animals like that. It is not just about horses but other companion animals. If it is ok to do that to a horse then it is ok to that to a dog or cat?


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## DabDab (27 January 2022)

Upthecreek said:



			I think the RSPCA has always prosecuted for deliberate acts of violence against animals?
		
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Rarely and inconsistently. They seem to go for private prosecution only with situations that are already high profile.


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## Kaylum (27 January 2022)

If you are put in prison/charged with an offence by private prosecution you don't get  a criminal record. Or at least you didn't use to.  Won't show up on a dbs check.  Maybe it's changed. This was a few years ago now.


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## Birker2020 (27 January 2022)

Pearlsasinger said:



			Nothing personal, I don't like misinformation being spread on SM
		
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Oh its personal allright. You just like to argue. And the little clique that follow you are evident by your 'likes'.  I've not said anything that is incorrect nor what many others have said. Due process was followed by her employers and other agencies. She was suspended which is the norm following allegations of this nature. Then she was sacked. Now she's going to Court.

 You still haven't answered my questions to you which makes me even more certain of your intentions towards me.

You don't give a damn about this woman, you are just using your 'concern' as a way to undermine my comments, the facts have already shown your theory "how do you know she didn't hand in her notice?" to be wrong.  Not that you would admit this.


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## DabDab (27 January 2022)

laura_nash said:



			Isn't the whole point of this thread that she is being taken to court and people think that is wrong?  So actually those people are arguing FOR the court of opinion and AGAINST that of the court of law.  They just think the court of opinion came down on the wrong side. 

Rightly or wrongly (and I think wrongly) in the UK bringing animal abuse to court has been done by the RSPCA for years now.  That they are taking her to court doesn't automatically mean she will be found guilty.  Maybe she will be found innocent and vindicated (though I find that unlikely given the video evidence).
		
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People are arguing against it because there seems to be little value in it from an ongoing animal welfare pov and because it won't be just quietly prosecuted as per a CPS prosecution, it will and already is being treated as a publicity activity. The woman has already been through the mill as a result of her actions and people can keep going and going at her, with the RSPCA providing a new way to ensure it stays in the news, until there is little left of her life. But at some point you've got to (one has to) question whether you are (one is) making the world a better place for animals or just making yourself (oneself) feel better because the wicked witch has been effectively identified and destroyed.

I should probably add that if truth be known I don't really care, she's just one person who I have no connection to. But I also don't think those who are continuing in their campaign against her are doing so for any animal welfare reason.


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## laura_nash (27 January 2022)

SO1 said:



			If the RSPCA do nothing they are effectively saying to the millions of people who saw that video that it is ok to kick and punch animals like that. It is not just about horses but other companion animals. If it is ok to do that to a horse then it is ok to that to a dog or cat?
		
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Also, there was a good thread on here before about the social contract we have for riding horses, ie whether most people think it is an ok thing to do, and how that is strained by high profile things like the Olympic pentathlon and the recent racing scandals. Like it or not this is now high profile.  If she is not prosecuted, especially since she has not made any public apology and lots of people are defending her on the basis what she did was fine (not on here) then that is saying to non-horsey people that this is normal behaviour in horse ownership and riding.  That type of thing is playing right into PETA's hands.


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## DabDab (27 January 2022)

laura_nash said:



			Also, there was a good thread on here before about the social contract we have for riding horses, ie whether most people think it is an ok thing to do, and how that is strained by high profile things like the Olympic pentathlon and the recent racing scandals. Like it or not this is now high profile.  If she is not prosecuted, especially since she has not made any public apology and lots of people are defending her on the basis what she did was fine (not on here) then that is saying to non-horsey people that this is normal behaviour in horse ownership and riding.  That type of thing is playing right into PETA's hands.
		
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The RSPCA prosecuting won't make any difference to that perception. If people have that view of those that ride horses then they will just think that it is the RSPCA who stopped us in this case. They won't think the rest of us are alright because the RSPCA prosecuted this one woman.

If we really wanted to make a difference we should be campaigning for change in the way that the sporting aspects of equestrianism are governed for a start, then reporting every abusive incident witnessed to the police and RSPCA, and then when they (inevitably) don't do anything, funding private prosecutions ourselves.

Pretending that this woman is the beginning and the end of the problem and by clapping on the RSPCA prosecuting her we can undo the ills of the horse world is just silly imo.


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## Gallop_Away (27 January 2022)

I think people have very short memories. I've said this before but I can't help but remember what happened to Caroline Flack. 
People make mistakes. She has been punished enough. Leave it be now.


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## laura_nash (27 January 2022)

DabDab said:



			The RSPCA prosecuting won't make any difference to that perception. If people have that view of those that ride horses then they will just think that it is the RSPCA who stopped us in this case. They won't think the rest of us are alright because the RSPCA prosecuted this one woman.

If we really wanted to make a difference we should be campaigning for change in the way that the sporting aspects of equestrianism are governed for a start, then reporting every abusive incident witnessed to the police and RSPCA, and then when they (inevitably) don't do anything, funding private prosecutions ourselves.

Pretending that this woman is the beginning and the end of the problem and by clapping on the RSPCA prosecuting her we can undo the ills of the horse world is just silly imo.
		
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I didn't suggest anything of the sort, and I absolutely agree that ideally people would be encouraged to report everything of that kind they see and ideally another body would take on private prosecutions for them if the police and RSPCA won't.


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## scats (27 January 2022)

Was musing about this thread this morning and although I think what she did was absolutely disgraceful, how many of us think nothing of giving a horse a firm tap with a whip because it won’t go forwards/is ignoring our leg etc. 

Though hitting a horse in the face out of temper is horrid behaviour, is smacking a horse with a whip because it wont do what you want not pretty horrid also, in reality?  Yet we accept that riders do this, day in and out, across the world.  
This doesn’t excuse her behaviour, but it does throw in just what rocky ground we are on as riders, who, on a daily basis, do abuse the good nature of the horse for our own personal gain.


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## Sandstone1 (27 January 2022)

While I am no fan of the Rspca and think that they do waste a lot of money and do not investigate a whole lot of stuff that they should do, I think its right this woman should go to court.
Yes, we have probably all seen behaviour like this at shows over the years.   This does not mean its right.  That pony did absolutely nothing to deserve the treatment he got.  The woman simply took her temper out on him.   If she can not control herself in public I really fear what goes on in private. 
That people normalise that kind of treatment to animals is really upsetting.   All animals deserve our respect. Its time people realised its just not Ok to casually abuse animals like this.     Yes the woman has already lost her job, but would you want someone with a temper like that looking after your kids?
If you saw someone on the street hitting and kicking a dog, would you feel differently?
The post above raises a good point.  I do ride but do not often carry a whip and do not remember the last  time  I used one.  Times are changing and hopefully for the better.


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## BeansNsausages (27 January 2022)

scats said:



			Was musing about this thread this morning and although I think what she did was absolutely disgraceful, how many of us think nothing of giving a horse a firm tap with a whip because it won’t go forwards/is ignoring our leg etc.

Though hitting a horse in the face out of temper is horrid behaviour, is smacking a horse with a whip because it wont do what you want not pretty horrid also, in reality?
		
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I suppose the difference is that this horse will have had no understanding as to why he was getting a smack. 

But I agree with you, who of us has not ridden a nappy horse who we have given a sharp crack with a whip? The pain from a ridden 'pony club kick' would be far harder than the kick that this lady managed to do from the ground.


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## TPO (27 January 2022)

minesadouble said:



			All I will say is that if that is the worst thing that ever happens to that pony in his entire life at the hands of humans then he is one damned lucky equine
		
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And isn't that a very sad indication of the horse world?

At the end of the day she did something wrong and prosecutable (new word?).

I hope the extreme lengths taken for "justice" are a wake up call for every other person that hits, abuses, whips, kicks, etc their horse. Quite a few have tried to justify her behaviour and I find that almost as sickening as her attack on the horse


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## Sandstone1 (27 January 2022)

TPO said:



			And isn't that a very sad indication of the horse world?

At the end of the day she did something wrong and prosecutable (new word?).

I hope the extreme lengths taken for "justice" are a wake up call for every other person that hits, abuses, whips, kicks, etc their horse. Quite a few have tried to justify her behaviour and I find that almost as sickening as her attack on the horse
		
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I agree with this one hundred per cent.  That people think that this is normal behaviour in the horse world is very very sad and upsetting and if people think it Ok to treat horses like this its time people took a good long hard look at the way we use and abuse horses.


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## DabDab (27 January 2022)

TPO said:



			And isn't that a very sad indication of the horse world?

At the end of the day she did something wrong and prosecutable (new word?).

I hope the extreme lengths taken for "justice" are a wake up call for every other person that hits, abuses, whips, kicks, etc their horse. Quite a few have tried to justify her behaviour and I find that almost as sickening as her attack on the horse
		
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Bit of a cop out though no? There is actually stuff that we could all do to raise standards in equestrianism, but often don't. Cultural norms and standards are created by us all.


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## rextherobber (27 January 2022)

MagicMelon said:



			The horse was in danger, it got punched in the face!  How is that not cruelty?  She's a nasty person, had my sons teacher done something like this, I 100% would demand she was fired, I would not want someone like that around my children let alone my animals.  Why on earth should a person be allowed to do this and it go unpunished, Id worry what you did to your pony!
		
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The woman's level of anger/violence escalated rapidly when there was absolutely no retaliation from the horse. She began with a slap, and proceeded to kick and, ( I also do not want to watch the video again) speaking from memory, the last few blows are not far off a punch...There was no reaction from the horse ( other than looking resigned to it all) I would not want my child to be exposed to someone who behaves with this utter lack of control, who escalates violence with no provocation. I would assume the RSPCA investigation has revealed circumstances other than this one filmed instance, otherwise I would agree it would seem unusual for a case like this to go to court, judging by reported dog cruelty cases.  But again, this is pure conjecture...


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## TPO (27 January 2022)

DabDab said:



			Bit of a cop out though no? There is actually stuff that we could all do to raise standards in equestrianism, but often don't. Cultural norms and standards are created by us all.
		
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Agree (about everyone raising standards not that it's a cop out).

But so far there has been next to no consequences for action like this. Now "only" hitting and kicking a horse can lead to loss of job and a court case.


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## Sandstone1 (27 January 2022)

DabDab said:



			Bit of a cop out though no? There is actually stuff that we could all do to raise standards in equestrianism, but often don't. Cultural norms and standards are created by us all.
		
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So is it not time to start changing that?


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## Marigold4 (27 January 2022)

scats said:



			Was musing about this thread this morning and although I think what she did was absolutely disgraceful, how many of us think nothing of giving a horse a firm tap with a whip because it won’t go forwards/is ignoring our leg etc. 

Though hitting a horse in the face out of temper is horrid behaviour, is smacking a horse with a whip because it wont do what you want not pretty horrid also, in reality?  Yet we accept that riders do this, day in and out, across the world.  
This doesn’t excuse her behaviour, but it does throw in just what rocky ground we are on as riders, who, on a daily basis, do abuse the good nature of the horse for our own personal gain.
		
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I agree. Whipping a horse and jabbing it with sharp spurs, harsh hands coupled with severe bits, riding at speed at solid fences with risk of injuring horse, racing two year olds knowing this will likely injure them - all considered OK.


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## Red-1 (27 January 2022)

minesadouble said:



			This prosecution has nothing to do with animal welfare and everything to do with politics.

Does anyone remember the Arab horses case, where they killed so many while ignoring offers of help with rehoming from the AHS and even the protestations of the man who actually shot them?
I think that was the final straw for me.
		
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I do remember this, and also that they charged the court livery for the dead horses, until challenged, whereupon they said it was an 'admin error.' Disgraceful.

From my perspective, I have always been in public eye jobs, and I once went to try a horse that was reputed to be very naughty. The dealer insisted I carry a blue pipe, as that was the only way to get him to stop rearing. I refused, and told the dealer that, if I were to be caught using blue piping, I would lose my job. (I would not have used it anyway, but didn't want the dealer to think I was too fluffy to buy the horse!). I did carry a schooling whip, had no cause to use it. 

My point is that, when in the public eye, you do know that your behaviour outside of work could affect your employment. 

I think she would have done better to resign, with dignity, if she did in fact be sacked. For example, I now work in a school, but once was involved with something that went to court, as a witness not as an accused, but it was an upsetting case involving a colleague. We, as an organisation, as well as the individual, were found to have done nothing wrong. But, when trial by social media reared its ugly head again, years later, I offered to resign so as the school would not be linked, and my school is not a private one! It just seemed the decent thing to do. As it happened, it didn't come to that, we had done nothing wrong, it didn't go further, and I didn't have to resign. I imagine, she would have been as well simply resigning, especially as this school is a private one, with customers to attract.


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## Sandstone1 (27 January 2022)

Marigold4 said:



			I agree. Whipping a horse and jabbing it with sharp spurs, harsh hands coupled with severe bits, riding at speed at solid fences with risk of injuring horse, racing two year olds knowing this will likely injure them - all considered OK.
		
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But its not ok is it?  Thats the point.


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## Marigold4 (27 January 2022)

Sandstone1 said:



			But its not ok is it?  Thats the point.
		
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No - it isn't at all ok. I just can't understand why we all turn a blind eye to it.


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## ycbm (27 January 2022)

rextherobber said:



			The woman's level of anger/violence escalated rapidly when there was absolutely no retaliation from the horse. She began with a slap, and proceeded to kick and, ( I also do not want to watch the video again) speaking from memory, the last few blows are not far off a punch
		
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Your memory is incorrect and I suggest you watch the video again to stop you blowing it up into more than it was.  One kick to the chest followed by  4 slaps to the muzzle. No significant escalation.  Following which an undamaged pony followed her willingly and quietly into the lorry.


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## ycbm (27 January 2022)

Kaylum said:



			If you are put in prison/charged with an offence by private prosecution you don't get  a criminal record. Or at least you didn't use to.  Won't show up on a dbs check.  Maybe it's changed. This was a few years ago now.
		
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Criminal convictions are always counted,  I think, you are maybe getting confused because most private prosecutions are civil. 
.


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## ycbm (27 January 2022)

Upthecreek said:



			Owning a fat horse is not against the law.
		
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It is. 

https://www.yourhorse.co.uk/fit-not...ound-guilty-of-causing-unnecessary-suffering/
.


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## Upthecreek (27 January 2022)

DabDab said:



			Rarely and inconsistently. They seem to go for private prosecution only with situations that are already high profile.
		
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Well yes of course they are more likely to prosecute high profile cases. Not doing so basically says it’s okay for people to treat their animals like that. It isn’t. And yes there is far worse going on, but I do not see how they could do nothing and explain why in a way that makes sense to the general public.

If she was filmed giving her horse one slap with an open hand in a split second loss of control because she was surrounded by hunt sabs and stressed/fearful for the safety of her children none of what has happened would have happened. But that is not what you see on the film and I can see how it is seen as a deliberate act of violence by the RSPCA.


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## Upthecreek (27 January 2022)

ycbm said:



			It is.

https://www.yourhorse.co.uk/fit-not...ound-guilty-of-causing-unnecessary-suffering/
.
		
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Okay! And of course the owner was rightly prosecuted.


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## Sandstone1 (27 January 2022)

ycbm said:



			Your memory is incorrect and I suggest you watch the video again to stop you blowing it up into more than it was.  One kick to the chest followed by  4 slaps to the muzzle. No significant escalation.  Following which an undamaged pony followed her willingly and quietly into the lorry.
		
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Its not the point that it was "undamaged" though is it?  The pony did nothing wrong.  It was completely uncalled for.


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## ycbm (27 January 2022)

DabDab said:



			Rarely and inconsistently. They seem to go for private prosecution only with situations that are already high profile.
		
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This isn't true DD, sorry.  The RSPCA are in Magistrate's courts week after week with cases of mistreated animals.  They just don't make it any further than the local news. 

I've seen privately prosecuted cases brought  by the RSPCA, just in my local area,  of a starved horse, keeping a horse when banned,  failing to control a vicious dog and   starving a dog.  

It's absolutely wrong that the RSPCA are the de facto animal police,  but they are still that,  I believe.


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## ycbm (27 January 2022)

Sandstone1 said:



			Its not the point that it was "undamaged" though is it?  The pony did nothing wrong.  It was completely uncalled for.
		
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The punishment is already grossly disproportionate to the crime,  in my view. In that respect,  yes, it is an important point that the pony was undamaged by the experience.   

How do you escalate from "life as she knew it ripped to shreds"  for someone who actually deliberately damages an animal?  Hang them? 
.


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## Kaylum (27 January 2022)

ycbm said:



			Criminal convictions are always counted,  I think you are maybe getting confused because most private prosecutions are civil.
.
		
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Ok obviously I can't give details. It's maybe something to look out for when doing checks.


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## dorsetladette (27 January 2022)

southerncomfort said:



			😯 I didn't know that!!
		
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https://www.theguardian.com/environ...y-growing-number-of-ponies-says-chris-packham


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## ycbm (27 January 2022)

Kaylum said:



			Ok obviously I can't give details. It's maybe something to look out for when doing checks.
		
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You could give the rules without mentioning any case?   Criminal convictions do become spent in some situations,  but I wasn't aware they could ever not be recorded just because the prosecution was brought by someone other than the CPS. Please correct me if I'm wrong. 
.


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## smolmaus (27 January 2022)

dorsetladette said:



https://www.theguardian.com/environ...y-growing-number-of-ponies-says-chris-packham

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That doesn't say that he wants all ponies removed from the new forest. He is saying the numbers are too high and are being deliberately inflated due to uncapped subsidies. Sounds completely reasonable to me tbh.


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## Pearlsasinger (27 January 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			Oh its personal allright. You just like to argue. And the little clique that follow you are evident by your 'likes'.  I've not said anything that is incorrect nor what many others have said. Due process was followed by her employers and other agencies. She was suspended which is the norm following allegations of this nature. Then she was sacked. Now she's going to Court.

You still haven't answered my questions to you which makes me even more certain of your intentions towards me.

You don't give a damn about this woman, you are just using your 'concern' as a way to undermine my comments, the facts have already shown your theory "how do you know she didn't hand in her notice?" to be wrong.  Not that you would admit this.
		
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Due process takes considerably longer than the time between the video going viral and SM being reported as leaving her job.
You may have taken minutes at meetings, I have actually been involved in the processes, in several roles as an education professional.  I do know what I am talking about, having had relevant training in all those roles, not just from sitting in a few meetings, taking notes.



ETA, you talk about 'facts' as if you have inside information, which you certainly should not have, or are certain that what has been reported inthe media is spot on, which experience tells me would be very rare.  All any of us really know is the statement that the school put out:  'employment has been terminated'.  It did not say terminated by whom.


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## Upthecreek (27 January 2022)

ycbm said:



			The punishment is already grossly disproportionate to the crime,  in my view. In that respect,  yes, it is an important point that the pony was undamaged by the experience.  

How do you escalate from "life as she knew it ripped to shreds"  for someone who actually deliberately damages an animal?  Hang them?
.
		
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If she had physically damaged the pony she would be facing a harsher penalty than the one she will get as a result of the prosecution. There are escalating punishments depending on the severity of the crime. She will get some community service and probably have to attend an anger management course or similar. More serious violence or abuse could result in a custodial sentence for example.


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## eahotson (27 January 2022)

Sandstone1 said:



			But its not ok is it?  Thats the point.
		
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We pay to watch things like that and people frequently win big prizes doing just that.


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## eahotson (27 January 2022)

ycbm said:



			This isn't true DD, sorry.  The RSPCA are in Magistrate's courts week after week with cases of mistreated animals.  They just don't make it any further than the local news.

I've seen privately prosecuted cases brought  by the RSPCA, just in my local area,  of a starved horse, keeping a horse when banned,  failing to control a vicious dog and   starving a dog. 

It's absolutely wrong that the RSPCA are the de facto animal police,  but they are still that,  I believe.
		
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Yes.They came to our yard not so long ago following a complaint I gather.


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## dorsetladette (27 January 2022)

smolmaus said:



			That doesn't say that he wants all ponies removed from the new forest. He is saying the numbers are too high and are being deliberately inflated due to uncapped subsidies. Sounds completely reasonable to me tbh.
		
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Sorry I just quickly googled the article and didn't read the content. It read very differently in the local rag.


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## honetpot (27 January 2022)

smolmaus said:



			That doesn't say that he wants all ponies removed from the new forest. He is saying the numbers are too high and are being deliberately inflated due to uncapped subsidies. Sounds completely reasonable to me tbh.
		
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 The problem is the total payment is capped, and how it's distributed is the issue, and it is not just ponies.
https://www.advertiserandtimes.co.u...set-to-be-halved-in-funding-shake-up-9149982/


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## southerncomfort (27 January 2022)

Genuine question:  do we think that if she is successfully prosecuted and handed a decent fine that it will send shock waves and start the ball rolling of changing attitudes regarding the casual use of violence against horses?

I'm thinking about what some posters have said above about worse being seen at shows.

We live in a surveillance society.  Everyone has a video recorder in their pocket.  It would be nice for those who mistreat horses at shows to have it in the back of their minds that any one could film their behaviour and either pass it to the RSPCA or post it on social media.

(To be clear I'm not talking about monsters like Evans.  He should be in prison as far as I'm concerned).

I suppose what I'm getting at is that while it might be true that this woman is bearing the brunt of our collective anger at every day aggression and violence meted out to horses, might a successful prosecution help focus the minds of the every day bullies?

And equally, might it embolden the rest of us to actually do something if we witness this behaviour if we have a stronger sense that a complaint will be taken seriously?


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## Berpisc (27 January 2022)

MagicMelon said:



			Excellent, delighted they are. Disgusting behaviour from this woman, she deserves everything she gets. I hope she is banned from keeping animals (and kids!) for life.
		
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"She deserves everything she gets"
Interesting pov....


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## YorksG (27 January 2022)

southerncomfort said:



			Genuine question:  do we think that if she is successfully prosecuted and handed a decent fine that it will send shock waves and start the ball rolling of changing attitudes regarding the casual use of violence against horses?

I'm thinking about what some posters have said above about worse being seen at shows.

We live in a surveillance society.  Everyone has a video recorder in their pocket.  It would be nice for those who mistreat horses at shows to have it in the back of their minds that any one could film their behaviour and either pass it to the RSPCA or post it on social media.

(To be clear I'm not talking about monsters like Evans.  He should be in prison as far as I'm concerned).

I suppose what I'm getting at is that while it might be true that this woman is bearing the brunt of our collective anger at every day aggression and violence meted out to horses, might a successful prosecution help focus the minds of the every day bullies?

And equally, might it embolden the rest of us to actually do something if we witness this behaviour if we have a stronger sense that a complaint will be taken seriously?
		
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The complaint will only be taken seriously if it suits the agenda of someone with a high public profile.


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## Birker2020 (27 January 2022)

Pearlsasinger said:



			ETA, you talk about 'facts' as if you have inside information, which you certainly should not have, or are certain that what has been reported inthe media is spot on, which experience tells me would be very rare.  All any of us really know is the statement that the school put out:  'employment has been terminated'.  It did not say terminated by whom.
		
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I have never talked as if I have inside information, show me the paragraph where I said I was party to inside information then and prove it! I've never alluded or suggested that I had inside information - this is total rubbish!  I just now how the process works.  If you don't then its because you've obviously never been party to a position of trust meeting.

I have just spoken about the *possible* process that people go through when an allegation has been made and they are in a position of trust.  And I wasn't relying on just one newspaper - its been confirmed all across the internet and a statement released and read by Paul Maddox, chief operating officer of the Mowbray Education Trust,

And yes it did say she was terminated by Mowbray Education Trust.
https://news.sky.com/story/leiceste...eo-of-horse-being-punched-and-kicked-12525580

"After a public outcry following the release of the video, she was suspended and then sacked by Mowbray Education Trust"

This link said that the trust suspended her:
In a statement issued on December 20, the trust - which represents seven schools in the Melton area - said Moulds had now been removed from her position.

"I can confirm that Sarah Moulds’ employment with the Trust has been terminated, "said Paul Maddox, chief operating officer of the Trust.

and the link https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/teacher-sacked-video-kicking-horse-22524593

Sarah Moulds, 37, has been sacked from her position at the Mowbray Education Trust in Melton Mowbray
and the link: https://metro.co.uk/2021/12/21/teac...g-punched-and-kicked-sparks-outrage-15802230/

A woman filmed slapping and kicking a horse last month has been sacked from her job as a primary school teacher in Leicestershire.

In a brief statement from Mowbray Education Trust, they confirmed Sarah Moulds had been sacked.

and the link: https://www.itv.com/news/2021-12-20...after-being-caught-kicking-and-slapping-horse

Paul Maddox, chief operating officer of the Mowbray Education Trust, said in a statement: "I can confirm that Sarah Moulds' employment with the trust has been terminated.
"As a trust we are committed to ensuring the best standard of education for all of our young people and we look forward to continuing this throughout the 2021/22 academic year and beyond."
Ms Moulds was also removed from a volunteering role she carried out for the Pony Club, which said of the video: "We wholeheartedly condemn this behaviour".

and the link: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-59728476


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## Birker2020 (27 January 2022)

And a excerpt from a LADO position of trust document pulled from the internet

*External safeguarding matters – allegations against staff in their personal lives*

If an allegation arises about a member of staff, outside of their work with children, and this may present a risk of harm/risk of children for whom the member of staff is responsible through their employment/volunteering, a POT meeting should be convened to decide whether the concern justifies:

Approaching the member of staff’s employer for further information, in order to assess the level of risk of harm: and or
Inviting the employer to a further meeting about dealing with the possible risk of harm


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## Birker2020 (27 January 2022)

southerncomfort said:



			Genuine question:  do we think that if she is successfully prosecuted and handed a decent fine that it will send shock waves and start the ball rolling of changing attitudes regarding the casual use of violence against horses?

I'm thinking about what some posters have said above about worse being seen at shows.

We live in a surveillance society.  Everyone has a video recorder in their pocket.  It would be nice for those who mistreat horses at shows to have it in the back of their minds that any one could film their behaviour and either pass it to the RSPCA or post it on social media.

(To be clear I'm not talking about monsters like Evans.  He should be in prison as far as I'm concerned).

I suppose what I'm getting at is that while it might be true that this woman is bearing the brunt of our collective anger at every day aggression and violence meted out to horses, might a successful prosecution help focus the minds of the every day bullies?

And equally, might it embolden the rest of us to actually do something if we witness this behaviour if we have a stronger sense that a complaint will be taken seriously?
		
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Its a good point.


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## smolmaus (27 January 2022)

southerncomfort said:



			And equally, might it embolden the rest of us to actually do something if we witness this behaviour if we have a stronger sense that a complaint will be taken seriously?
		
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We can watch this playing out with "Grocery Store Karen" videos or the like. Some people will spew racist bile when they think they are safe, some will choose not to if they know they are being filmed, some are so secure in their untouchability that they will continue to be disgusting even then they know they are on camera. Some will face consequences and some won't. 

Even if complaints aren't taken seriously by authorities, you can still find there are social consequences with job loss, friends cutting ties etc. MASSIVE caveat here before someone starts trying to paint me as a vigilante who wants people to kill themselves, harassment on social media is still a crime and should ALSO be taken more seriously. These things don't have to go viral worldwide to have some sort of positive effect on accountability.


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## Pearlsasinger (27 January 2022)

Red-1 said:



			I do remember this, and also that they charged the court livery for the dead horses, until challenged, whereupon they said it was an 'admin error.' Disgraceful.

From my perspective, I have always been in public eye jobs, and I once went to try a horse that was reputed to be very naughty. The dealer insisted I carry a blue pipe, as that was the only way to get him to stop rearing. I refused, and told the dealer that, if I were to be caught using blue piping, I would lose my job. (I would not have used it anyway, but didn't want the dealer to think I was too fluffy to buy the horse!). I did carry a schooling whip, had no cause to use it.

My point is that, when in the public eye, you do know that your behaviour outside of work could affect your employment.

I think she would have done better to resign, with dignity, if she did in fact be sacked. For example, I now work in a school, but once was involved with something that went to court, as a witness not as an accused, but it was an upsetting case involving a colleague. We, as an organisation, as well as the individual, were found to have done nothing wrong. But, when trial by social media reared its ugly head again, years later, I offered to resign so as the school would not be linked, and my school is not a private one! It just seemed the decent thing to do. As it happened, it didn't come to that, we had done nothing wrong, it didn't go further, and I didn't have to resign. I imagine, she would have been as well simply resigning, especially as this school is a private one, with customers to attract.
		
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I agree with you and have always said that teachers should be aware that their behaviour out of school can indeed impact on their reputation in their working lives (long before social media was even thought of).
However to put the record straight; the employer in this instance was not a private school but rather a multi Academy Trust (not the LA).  The confusion arose because initially SM incorrectly identifed another teacher who does work for a private school. We do not know the circumstances of her leaving her employment, only that she left, according to the statement put out by the employer.


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## skinnydipper (27 January 2022)

ycbm said:



			Your memory is incorrect and I suggest you watch the video again to stop you blowing it up into more than it was.  One kick to the chest followed by  4 slaps to the muzzle. No significant escalation.  Following which an undamaged pony followed her willingly and quietly into the lorry.
		
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So, I have just watched it again.  

She kicked it once, slapped it twice and punched it twice.  It didn't need to escalate to be bad - it was bad.

It may not have been physically damaged but I wouldn't imagine it did the pony's well being much good.  Or trust in humans.


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## Birker2020 (27 January 2022)

ycbm said:



			Your memory is incorrect and I suggest you watch the video again to stop you blowing it up into more than it was.  One kick to the chest followed by  4 slaps to the muzzle. No significant escalation.  Following which an undamaged pony followed her willingly and quietly into the lorry.
		
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So what if someone who had done this to a horse lost her rag and gave a child a kick to the chest followed by 4 slaps around the face.  Would this be okay in your eyes?  This is what this is all about.  Trying to prove that someone in this type of situation who works with children doesn't pose a risk to a child.

I know I couldn't work with children as I don't have the patience.   That's not to say I would start laying into them but I certainly wouldn't feel comfortable in that situation being surrounded by children playing up and testing my patience and the boundaries that had been put in place.  That's why I'm not a teacher.  And I'm not suggesting for one minute this was the case in this womans case as I don't know, none of us know.  But who would be prepared to take the risk?

I know how nasty children can be in a school situation, we had one teacher many years ago in secondary school who was a recovering alcholic. I have no idea how the kids in the class knew that, I think it was someones Mum was friendly with her Mum or something and word had got out.   One day she came into the lesson carrying a load of Geography books in a box with Smirnoff Vodka  written all over the box.  The trouble makers in the class  created merry hell with her during the lesson and goaded and provoked her teasing her about the Smirnoff Vodka and that she was an 'alchy'.  She ran off in tears.  I've never forgotten it - it was horrible.  She could have reacted and started on the children, she didn't she ran which was the best thing to do.

No one knows how they would react in that situation.


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## BeansNsausages (27 January 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			I have never talked as if I have inside information, show me the paragraph where I said I was party to inside information then and prove it! I've never alluded or suggested that I had inside information - this is total rubbish!  I just now how the process works.  If you don't then its because you've obviously never been party to a position of trust meeting.

I have just spoken about the *possible* process that people go through when an allegation has been made and they are in a position of trust.  And I wasn't relying on just one newspaper - its been confirmed all across the internet and a statement released and read by Paul Maddox, chief operating officer of the Mowbray Education Trust,

And yes it did say she was terminated by Mowbray Education Trust.
https://news.sky.com/story/leiceste...eo-of-horse-being-punched-and-kicked-12525580

"After a public outcry following the release of the video, she was suspended and then sacked by Mowbray Education Trust"

This link said that the trust suspended her:
In a statement issued on December 20, the trust - which represents seven schools in the Melton area - said Moulds had now been removed from her position.

"I can confirm that Sarah Moulds’ employment with the Trust has been terminated, "said Paul Maddox, chief operating officer of the Trust.

and the link https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/teacher-sacked-video-kicking-horse-22524593

Sarah Moulds, 37, has been sacked from her position at the Mowbray Education Trust in Melton Mowbray
and the link: https://metro.co.uk/2021/12/21/teac...g-punched-and-kicked-sparks-outrage-15802230/

A woman filmed slapping and kicking a horse last month has been sacked from her job as a primary school teacher in Leicestershire.

In a brief statement from Mowbray Education Trust, they confirmed Sarah Moulds had been sacked.

and the link: https://www.itv.com/news/2021-12-20...after-being-caught-kicking-and-slapping-horse

Paul Maddox, chief operating officer of the Mowbray Education Trust, said in a statement: "I can confirm that Sarah Moulds' employment with the trust has been terminated.
"As a trust we are committed to ensuring the best standard of education for all of our young people and we look forward to continuing this throughout the 2021/22 academic year and beyond."
Ms Moulds was also removed from a volunteering role she carried out for the Pony Club, which said of the video: "We wholeheartedly condemn this behaviour".

and the link: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-59728476

Click to expand...


You have too much time on your hands..


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## YorksG (27 January 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			And a excerpt from a LADO position of trust document pulled from the internet

*External safeguarding matters – allegations against staff in their personal lives*

If an allegation arises about a member of staff, outside of their work with children, and this may present a risk of harm/risk of children for whom the member of staff is responsible through their employment/volunteering, a POT meeting should be convened to decide whether the concern justifies:

Approaching the member of staff’s employer for further information, in order to assess the level of risk of harm: and or
Inviting the employer to a further meeting about dealing with the possible risk of harm


Click to expand...

Please will you stop making this about you and your two years as an agency admin worker, within a local authority? Some people in this board have had significant input into safeguarding meetings and have experience of working in safeguarding and employment.


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## Upthecreek (27 January 2022)

southerncomfort said:



			Genuine question:  do we think that if she is successfully prosecuted and handed a decent fine that it will send shock waves and start the ball rolling of changing attitudes regarding the casual use of violence against horses?

I'm thinking about what some posters have said above about worse being seen at shows.

We live in a surveillance society.  Everyone has a video recorder in their pocket.  It would be nice for those who mistreat horses at shows to have it in the back of their minds that any one could film their behaviour and either pass it to the RSPCA or post it on social media.

(To be clear I'm not talking about monsters like Evans.  He should be in prison as far as I'm concerned).

I suppose what I'm getting at is that while it might be true that this woman is bearing the brunt of our collective anger at every day aggression and violence meted out to horses, might a successful prosecution help focus the minds of the every day bullies?

And equally, might it embolden the rest of us to actually do something if we witness this behaviour if we have a stronger sense that a complaint will be taken seriously?
		
Click to expand...

Great post. In the times we are living in now everyone should be aware that anything they are doing in public could be caught on camera, whether that be CCTV or a mobile phone and there is the potential that it will be shared on social media. If this case makes people improve their behaviour around horses for no other reason than fear of getting in trouble if they are filmed being rough/violent/abusive then that is a positive outcome.


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## rextherobber (27 January 2022)

ycbm said:



			Your memory is incorrect and I suggest you watch the video again to stop you blowing it up into more than it was.  One kick to the chest followed by  4 slaps to the muzzle. No significant escalation.  Following which an undamaged pony followed her willingly and quietly into the lorry.
		
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I have watched it again, and I disagree, was definitely escalating.


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## Pearlsasinger (27 January 2022)

BeansNsausages said:



			You have too much time on your hands..
		
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Indeed!

The article linked to is merely a rehash of the SM rants, it does not directly quote the statement from the employer, which was quoted much nearer to the beginning of the thread and said that  'employmment was terminated'.  It rather proves my point about inaccurate reporting.


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## meleeka (27 January 2022)

ycbm said:



			This isn't true DD, sorry.  The RSPCA are in Magistrate's courts week after week with cases of mistreated animals.  They just don't make it any further than the local news. 

I've seen privately prosecuted cases brought  by the RSPCA, just in my local area,  of a starved horse, keeping a horse when banned,  failing to control a vicious dog and   starving a dog.  

It's absolutely wrong that the RSPCA are the de facto animal police,  but they are still that,  I believe.
		
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I’m surprised you know of a prosecution of keeping a horse while banned.  There are a few near me who just say it’s a family members and carry on as they did before.   There’s one in particular that still has horses locked in a dark barn 24/7 living in their own s*** and apparently there are no signs of cruelty.  When they find one dead, they’ll no doubt be a statement stating how horrified they are  and appealing for information. 🙄


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## MagicMelon (27 January 2022)

YorksG said:



			You would seriously see her children in care as a result of this?
		
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Seriously, this woman punched a horse. She lost the plot. I would be very concerned when she loses the plot behind closed doors to be honest.


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## YorksG (27 January 2022)

MagicMelon said:



			Seriously, this woman punched a horse. She lost the plot. I would be very concerned when she loses the plot behind closed doors to be honest.
		
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I asked if you believed her children should be taken into care, do you believe that?


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## MagicMelon (27 January 2022)

paddy555 said:



			and what would you do with real cruelty cases? hang draw and quarter them?

for heaven's sake it wasn't the end of the world. If you really want to worry about cruelty go and look at starving horses, ones who can barely stand or even cannot stand for lack of care, curly toes, totally terrified wrecks, real cruelty cases and then compare the damage to them against the damage to that pony.
.
		
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Cruelty does not have to be purely ill looked after animals, this woman punched a horse in the head, how on earth can you poo poo it like it was nothing. It was disgraceful behaviour by anyone, let alone a school teacher. I very much wish the same could be done to the person as to what they do to animals to be honest!  I would also massively question what this woman does to her animals behind closed doors!


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## milliepops (27 January 2022)

southerncomfort said:



			Genuine question:  do we think that if she is successfully prosecuted and handed a decent fine that it will send shock waves and start the ball rolling of changing attitudes regarding the casual use of violence against horses?

I'm thinking about what some posters have said above about worse being seen at shows.

We live in a surveillance society.  Everyone has a video recorder in their pocket.  It would be nice for those who mistreat horses at shows to have it in the back of their minds that any one could film their behaviour and either pass it to the RSPCA or post it on social media.

(To be clear I'm not talking about monsters like Evans.  He should be in prison as far as I'm concerned).

I suppose what I'm getting at is that while it might be true that this woman is bearing the brunt of our collective anger at every day aggression and violence meted out to horses, might a successful prosecution help focus the minds of the every day bullies?

And equally, might it embolden the rest of us to actually do something if we witness this behaviour if we have a stronger sense that a complaint will be taken seriously?
		
Click to expand...

This concept makes me feel very uneasy. tbh i would probably give up keeping horses if anybody could film you and dob you in to some one (who?RSPCA?) or let social media unleash its force on you.  Any one of us has probably had a perfectly innocent moment that could be misconstrued in some twisted way and end up ruining your life.  Even if it went nowhere near a conviction, the damage would already be done via FB etc.

people say they've seen worse at shows but i think that's small fry,  if we were all expected to whip out the phone camera at the sign of any mistreatment of horses then i'd have been busy at some livery yards i've been on, would be constantly filming the horses opposite my field that the RSPCA appear to be ignoring etc etc.  

it's not that i want to brush mistreatment of horses under the rug, not at all. but this could become highly vindictive.


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## MagicMelon (27 January 2022)

Matafleur said:



			You'll be happy if she kills herself as a result of all this then will you? She'll deserve that too presumably?

Honestly, I never comment on this forum anymore but there really are a lot of holier than thou people on here. The woman has lost her job over this, among other things, and she and her family have been harrassed. Do her kids deserve that too? I would say she has paid enough now, her life is pretty ruined and I can't begin to imagine the toll on her mental health. I am pretty anti hunting but you'd be very naive not to see that this is the RSPCA capitalising on a situation to try and make themselves look good.

This was not a pleasant incident to see, the pony did not deserve it and she shouldn't have done it. Maybe she did deserve to be dismissed from her job and volunteer positions but this was not extreme and sustained cruelty that warrants a costly, private prosecution using charitable donations. There are far better things the RSPCA could be spending their money on.
		
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How would you know?  Do you truly believe this woman simply got a bit angry one day and punched her kids pony in the face, but that shes lovely as pie behind closed doors with these same animals?  Really?!  Ive never ever got that angry that I would ever punch an animal!  It truly worries me how many people seem to think this is acceptable or that she just needs a little slap on the hand. I feel really bad for her kids, they dont deserve harassment however they also dont deserve seeing their mother lose the plot and take her anger out in a completely disgraceful manner, what else do they see at home? I believe the RSPCA probably feel there is more to it and will probably be looking into her behaviour around animals further.


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## Gallop_Away (27 January 2022)

I'm curious....had this not been plastered all over SM, let's say a parent had been out hunting with them that day and witnessed the incident and reported it to the school. Do we think that the result would still be that she had lost her job?


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## Birker2020 (27 January 2022)

YorksG said:



			Please will you stop making this about you and your two years as an agency admin worker, within a local authority? Some people in this board have had significant input into safeguarding meetings and have experience of working in safeguarding and employment.
		
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I'm not making it about me, don't be so judgemental and patronising.

I am merely replying to Pearlsasingers allegation saying that I am alluding to being an insider and pretending I know more about the case than I do.


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## Birker2020 (27 January 2022)

Gallop_Away said:



			I'm curious....had this not been plastered all over SM, let's say a parent had been out hunting with them that day and witnessed the incident and reported it to the school. Do we think that the result would still be that she had lost her job?
		
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Yes most probably. It would still have to be investigated and they have a duty of care to pass it to the relevant agencies who will decide if it meets their threshold for further investigation.


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## PapaverFollis (27 January 2022)

A lot of people have really poor understanding of human behaviour.


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## Birker2020 (27 January 2022)

BeansNsausages said:



			You have too much time on your hands..
		
Click to expand...

No I am just explaining against the allegation that I am alluding to the fact that I know more than anyone else because somehow I am involved in the case when I've never said that!!!!!! 

And she reckons I was relying 'my information' on one newspaper article when I have clearly shown that there are hundreds of articles that all say the same thing.


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## Gallop_Away (27 January 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			Yes most probably. It would still have to be investigated and they have a duty of care to pass it to the relevant agencies who will decide if it meets their threshold for further investigation.
		
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I disagree. I think it would have been "investigated" in so far as she would have been spoken to. I don't think a single complaint would have been enough for this woman to loose her job. I also think had this been at a show instead of a hunt it wouldn't have created so much fuss.

I think it wasn't about what she did but rather how much of a sh!t storm it created. Had it not been so greatly blown up it wouldn't have gotten anywhere near this far. 

So the message seems to be that trial by social media is now an acceptable form of justice...... very worrying indeed.


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## Birker2020 (27 January 2022)

Gallop_Away said:



			I disagree. I think it would have been "investigated" in so far as she would have been spoken to. I don't think a single complaint would have been enough for this woman to loose her job. I also think had this been at a show instead of a hunt it wouldn't have created so much fuss.

I think it wasn't about what she did but rather how much of a sh!t storm it created. Had it not been so greatly blown up it wouldn't have gotten anywhere near this far.

So the message seems to be that trial by social media is now an acceptable form of justice...... very worrying indeed.
		
Click to expand...


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## eahotson (27 January 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			So what if someone who had done this to a horse lost her rag and gave a child a kick to the chest followed by 4 slaps around the face.  Would this be okay in your eyes?  This is what this is all about.  Trying to prove that someone in this type of situation who works with children doesn't pose a risk to a child.

I know I couldn't work with children as I don't have the patience.   That's not to say I would start laying into them but I certainly wouldn't feel comfortable in that situation being surrounded by children playing up and testing my patience and the boundaries that had been put in place.  That's why I'm not a teacher.  And I'm not suggesting for one minute this was the case in this womans case as I don't know, none of us know.  But who would be prepared to take the risk?

I know how nasty children can be in a school situation, we had one teacher many years ago in secondary school who was a recovering alcholic. I have no idea how the kids in the class knew that, I think it was someones Mum was friendly with her Mum or something and word had got out.   One day she came into the lesson carrying a load of Geography books in a box with Smirnoff Vodka  written all over the box.  The trouble makers in the class  created merry hell with her during the lesson and goaded and provoked her teasing her about the Smirnoff Vodka and that she was an 'alchy'.  She ran off in tears.  I've never forgotten it - it was horrible.  She could have reacted and started on the children, she didn't she ran which was the best thing to do.

No one knows how they would react in that situation.
		
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No they don't know how they would have behaved in that particular teachers case.They bullied one teacher so badly that he finally snapped (they knew he was vulnerable) and did in fact attack one or two of the children.They filmed it all though so when it went to court the horrifed judge (horrified at the children) made them come and stand before him.The watching parents went very quiet.The teachers career was finished of course and his already fragile mental health will probably never recover.There is though, no indication that this woman was a threat to children.Poor example maybe but not a direct threat.


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## eahotson (27 January 2022)

meleeka said:



			I’m surprised you know of a prosecution of keeping a horse while banned.  There are a few near me who just say it’s a family members and carry on as they did before.   There’s one in particular that still has horses locked in a dark barn 24/7 living in their own s*** and apparently there are no signs of cruelty.  When they find one dead, they’ll no doubt be a statement stating how horrified they are  and appealing for information. 🙄
		
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I know a case of a woman with a ban keeping a horse.Her behaviour hasn't changed!


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## tristar (27 January 2022)

the post saying when you run out of patience, you find some more, makes sense in a re think way of reacting

this sort of thing is inevitably   the forerunner to improvement in attitudes to animal welfare, within the lower and highest echelons of the horse world, for too long rollkur, use of spurs, overfacing of undertrained animals,  lack of education around horse management has been rumbling on, the sheer time and effort to train a horse humanely and correctly is commonly underestimated, if fact some seem to have no clue what they are aiming for, no conception, of  the processes and skills required to produce a properly educated horse or pony

the video shows a child loading a pony, should a child be loading a pony, no it should not

how bad does it have to get for horses before we all collectively get off our arses and start to change the actual role that horses play in our lives, are they really livestock? , commercial commodities? or do they have a deeper part to play in our lives, like what is their real purpose?

why is she being vilified, when the mouth bloodying prat is doing that as if its an accepted training method, ie showing them who is boss


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## YorksG (27 January 2022)

tristar said:



			why is she being vilified, when the mouth bloodying prat is doing that as if its an accepted training method, ie showing them who is boss
		
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Because it suited the agenda of a self serving agitator, who for some reason has been given a broader platform by our national broadcaster, to create a social media storm. Given his assertion about being the target of arson, when in fact he appears to have been nothing of the sort, I wish more people would question the motives of those who wish to try people by social media


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## paddy555 (27 January 2022)

MagicMelon said:



			Cruelty does not have to be purely ill looked after animals, this woman punched a horse in the head, how on earth can you poo poo it like it was nothing. It was disgraceful behaviour by anyone, let alone a school teacher. I very much wish the same could be done to the person as to what they do to animals to be honest!  I would also massively question what this woman does to her animals behind closed doors!
		
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I am not poo pooing anything. I am keeping it in proportion. 
Who knows what anyone does to their animals behind closed doors. One rescue I took on wouldn't move for it's owner so he tied it to a tractor and made it  lead that way. It would never have a rope within feet of it again. Fortunately someone had seen it and told me what had been done to it before I got killed. 

Who knows what you do to horses behind closed doors, or me or anyone on here. All teachers, social workers, NHS staff and many others have the potential to hit people or kids. I'm sure that the very vast majority don't and I see no reason as to why this woman would be a risk either.


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## eahotson (27 January 2022)

milliepops said:



			This concept makes me feel very uneasy. tbh i would probably give up keeping horses if anybody could film you and dob you in to some one (who?RSPCA?) or let social media unleash its force on you.  Any one of us has probably had a perfectly innocent moment that could be misconstrued in some twisted way and end up ruining your life.  Even if it went nowhere near a conviction, the damage would already be done via FB etc.

people say they've seen worse at shows but i think that's small fry,  if we were all expected to whip out the phone camera at the sign of any mistreatment of horses then i'd have been busy at some livery yards i've been on, would be constantly filming the horses opposite my field that the RSPCA appear to be ignoring etc etc. 

it's not that i want to brush mistreatment of horses under the rug, not at all. but this could become highly vindictive.
		
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What happens at shows is often far from small fry sadly.I saw a child nearly knocked off her feet by her father for making a mistake in the ring.Nothing was said.Look at Patrick Kittel (famous dressage rider and now on international horse committees) and the blue tongue.Just to give you a flavour.


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## tristar (27 January 2022)

YorksG said:



			Because it suited the agenda of a self serving agitator, who for some reason has been given a broader platform by our national broadcaster, to create a social media storm. Given his assertion about being the target of arson, when in fact he appears to have been nothing of the sort, I wish more people would question the motives of those who wish to try people by social media
		
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yes well its easy to see that, but what does it say about the funneling of one incident and the ignoring of or failure to confront the bigger fish, are they really are not aware of the broader aspects of horses experiences of life in 2021


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## YorksG (27 January 2022)

tristar said:



			yes well its easy to see that, but what does it say about the funneling of one incident and the ignoring of or failure to confront the bigger fish, are they really are not aware of the broader aspects of horses experiences of life in 2021
		
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That would require a full sociological thesis to address! Most people have nothing to do with horses and have no knowledge or interest in them.  However people have been able to be whipped up about all sorts of things that they had little to no knowledge of, by those who had some personal gain, for millennia.


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## honetpot (27 January 2022)

southerncomfort said:



			Genuine question:  do we think that if she is successfully prosecuted and handed a decent fine that it will send shock waves and start the ball rolling of changing attitudes regarding the casual use of violence against horses?

I'm thinking about what some posters have said above about worse being seen at shows.

We live in a surveillance society.  Everyone has a video recorder in their pocket.  It would be nice for those who mistreat horses at shows to have it in the back of their minds that any one could film their behaviour and either pass it to the RSPCA or post it on social media.

(To be clear I'm not talking about monsters like Evans.  He should be in prison as far as I'm concerned).

I suppose what I'm getting at is that while it might be true that this woman is bearing the brunt of our collective anger at every day aggression and violence meted out to horses, might a successful prosecution help focus the minds of the every day bullies?

And equally, might it embolden the rest of us to actually do something if we witness this behaviour if we have a stronger sense that a complaint will be taken seriously?
		
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 In my job we have a system of incident reporting, which can be anything from a blocked fire escape to a drug error, someone has to review and action if needed for every one. It's a good idea, but over time if you want to make someone leave, you keep sending these reports, so it's escalated. Other people probably make the same errors and nothing is done. Do you really want a society where everyone monitors your actions with a view to reporting you, and I have worked in places where bad behaviour is tolerated because they make people leave.
  It's like rapping, polling or any other training method that involves cohesion, it goes on behind closed doors, and only the people who are within that circle are aware of what is going on.
  I think we have to be very careful what we wish for, because you could edit a lot of things that go on in horse handling that could be edited to look bad. I am all for education and horse welfare, but a teenager losing their temper with their pony, it happens, should it mean they end being reported?


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## milliepops (27 January 2022)

eahotson said:



			What happens at shows is often far from small fry sadly.I saw a child nearly knocked off her feet by her father for making a mistake in the ring.Nothing was said.Look at Patrick Kittel (famous dressage rider and now on international horse committees) and the blue tongue.Just to give you a flavour.
		
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but the everyday grinding misery of a horse that is owned and handled by someone with no horsemanship skills whatsoever is cumulatively much greater than that. which is what i'm getting at. the number of horses kept across the country is massive, the number where you see a horrid spectacle at a show is far fewer.
probably we all look at ourselves and think oh it doesn't apply to me, very easy to point the finger elsewhere and ignore what's under your nose on a daily basis :/


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## ycbm (27 January 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			So what if someone who had done this to a horse lost her rag and gave a child a kick to the chest followed by 4 slaps around the face.
		
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She didn't. 




			Would this be okay in your eyes?
		
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I honestly don't think I've ever seen a more stupid/offensive question raised on this forum.


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## ycbm (27 January 2022)

MagicMelon said:



			! Ive never ever got that angry that I would ever punch an animal! It truly worries me how many people seem to think this is acceptable or that she just needs a little slap on the hand.
		
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Nobody on this forum has said it is acceptable and she has already received far more than a slap on the hand. 
.


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## eahotson (27 January 2022)

honetpot said:



			In my job we have a system of incident reporting, which can be anything from a blocked fire escape to a drug error, someone has to review and action if needed for every one. It's a good idea, but over time if you want to make someone leave, you keep sending these reports, so it's escalated. Other people probably make the same errors and nothing is done. Do you really want a society where everyone monitors your actions with a view to reporting you, and I have worked in places where bad behaviour is tolerated because they make people leave.
  It's like rapping, polling or any other training method that involves cohesion, it goes on behind closed doors, and only the people who are within that circle are aware of what is going on.
  I think we have to be very careful what we wish for, because you could edit a lot of things that go on in horse handling that could be edited to look bad. I am all for education and horse welfare, but a teenager losing their temper with their pony, it happens, should it mean they end being reported?
		
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Its all balance really.Some of the worst abuse in competition is at the higher end I think and No we don't want to become a police state.Neither do we want over reactions to human error such as this case but animal welfare is all too often compromised.If you reported to the stewards at a show something you thought was wrong the answer was always "It didn't happen" "You misunderstood" or some such.Now people film it and put it on social media because it is the only way to get it out there.If they could be sure that governing bodies and stewards would see fair play they may be less tempted to do that.


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## milliepops (27 January 2022)

ycbm said:



			She didn't.




I honestly don't think I've ever seen a more stupid/offensive question raised on this forum.
		
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yeah it's something of a massive leap to think you'd raise a hand to a child just because you would slap a horse.

i know we went over it on the other thread. People can behave entirely different in different situations without it requiring the smallest bit of effort. with my friends i eff and jeff, talking to the big cheeses at work brings out a professional vocab that doesn't get used anywhere else.  i have no patience with children either but internal decency, societal norms and general behavioural inhibitions would always stop me from hitting one!! you just switch one thing on and another thing off, we are all gear changing all day every day.  to suggest that behaviour in one scenario would mean a person would be like that in another is pretty shortsighted.


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## Pearlsasinger (27 January 2022)

*"I can confirm that Sarah Moulds’ employment with the Trust has been terminated, "said Paul Maddox, chief operating officer of the Trust.*

@Birker2020

This direct quote does NOT say that Sarah Moulds was dismissed from her role as a teacher.  The fact that various publications have extrapolated that is one of the things that those who can think critically will have picked up.

I did not say that you had claimed that you have inside info, I said that you write as if you have - there is a subtle difference.

I can assure you that I have not just been the minute taker in meetings to decide the future employment fate of teachers and other school staff but have been an active participant, from different perspectives,  after having been given the appropriate training, which is why I can speak authoritatively on the subject.


And that is my last word on the subject of SM's employment.


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## DabDab (27 January 2022)

ycbm said:



			This isn't true DD, sorry.  The RSPCA are in Magistrate's courts week after week with cases of mistreated animals.  They just don't make it any further than the local news.

I've seen privately prosecuted cases brought  by the RSPCA, just in my local area,  of a starved horse, keeping a horse when banned,  failing to control a vicious dog and   starving a dog. 

It's absolutely wrong that the RSPCA are the de facto animal police,  but they are still that,  I believe.
		
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Sorry, I should have been clear, I was responding to someone talking about the frequency of RSPCA cases brought against someone striking and animal.


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## Upthecreek (27 January 2022)

honetpot said:



			I think we have to be very careful what we wish for, because you could edit a lot of things that go on in horse handling that could be edited to look bad. I am all for education and horse welfare, but a teenager losing their temper with their pony, it happens, should it mean they end being reported?
		
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It depends what the teenager does to the pony as a result of losing their temper. I was stewarding at the weekend and a girl got eliminated. As she was leaving the arena she booted the horse in the ribs, got off and roughly yanked the reins over his head whilst shouting he was a f*cking tw*t. I went and spoke to her and told her in front of her mother that I could see she was upset and frustrated but her behaviour was unacceptable and we would not want to see it happen again at future events. We don’t always need to report people, but I believe we should be prepared to call out bad behaviour if we see it.


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## DabDab (27 January 2022)

Sandstone1 said:



			So is it not time to start changing that?
		
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Well yes 🙄. I've even given some ideas on previous responses 

I don't believe making this woman a sacrificial goat will change anything


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## eahotson (27 January 2022)

milliepops said:



			but the everyday grinding misery of a horse that is owned and handled by someone with no horsemanship skills whatsoever is cumulatively much greater than that. which is what i'm getting at. the number of horses kept across the country is massive, the number where you see a horrid spectacle at a show is far fewer.
probably we all look at ourselves and think oh it doesn't apply to me, very easy to point the finger elsewhere and ignore what's under your nose on a daily basis :/
		
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It's all cruelty but while some of it is ignorance at the level I am talking about,it isn't.


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## eahotson (27 January 2022)

Upthecreek said:



			It depends what the teenager does to the pony as a result of losing their temper. I was stewarding at the weekend and a girl got eliminated. As she was leaving the arena she booted the horse in the ribs, got off and roughly yanked the reins over his head whilst shouting he was a f*cking tw*t. I went and spoke to her and told her in front of her mother that I could see she was upset and frustrated but her behaviour was unacceptable and we would not want to see it happen again at future events. We don’t always need to report people, but I believe we should be prepared to call out bad behaviour if we see it.
		
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Well done.


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## Birker2020 (27 January 2022)

ycbm said:



			I honestly don't think I've ever seen a more stupid/offensive question raised on this forum.
		
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Oh for goodness sake YCBM.  You know damn well what point I was trying to convey.


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## windand rain (27 January 2022)

Wonder what a video of me feeding 5 ponies in a field would look like. Flailing arms to get each one to the right bucket and the odd one throwing its head up as if it had been hit. I don't hit but don't worry too much if they walk into a bump


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## Birker2020 (27 January 2022)

windand rain said:



			Wonder what a video of me feeding 5 ponies in a field would look like. Flailing arms to get each one to the right bucket and the odd one throwing its head up as if it had been hit. I don't hit but don't worry too much if they walk into a bump
		
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a) its not relevant
b) its not a prolonged attack on a single animal
c) you aren't a teacher


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## milliepops (27 January 2022)

but the rspca aren't taking up this case because she's a teacher, are they? we've moved on from that i thought, to a hypothetical approach to improving animal welfare via randoms filming each other and making complaints.


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## BeansNsausages (27 January 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			a) its not relevant
b) its not a prolonged attack on a single animal
c) you aren't a teacher
		
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D) Why are you so blunt and unnecessarily rude?


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## southerncomfort (27 January 2022)

I agree that we don't want a society where we're all waiting for everybody else to slip up so we can make an example of them.  This is why I don't do twitter and their vile witch hunts and 'cancelling' of people.

However, I'm confident I could tell the difference between someone smacking a horse because its stood on their foot or has just taken a chunk out of them and someone who has lost control of themselves.  We know if we see someone taking a horse behind the lorry and giving it a beating because it didn't jump well or won't load is very, very wrong.  

Their seems to be a reticence to report incidents because their is a belief that nothing will be done, or that their might be some comeback on them for reporting it.

Do I feel comfortable with people like CP setting himself up as a judge in these situations?  Not overly.

I do feel like something needs to happen, as the people who bully horses often don't even try and hide their behavior because they don't fear any consequences.

It's a difficult one for sure.  

Their is a clear risk in prosecuting in that if she's cleared abusers won't feel any fear at all.

I'm not sure what the answer is.


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## windand rain (27 January 2022)

milliepops said:



			but the rspca aren't taking up this case because she's a teacher, are they? we've moved on from that i thought, to a hypothetical approach to improving animal welfare via randoms filming each other and making complaints.
		
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This is the point of my post I have never abused an animal in my life but someone from a distance filming me waving the various ponies away could well have said I was hitting them as they do mill around and chuck their heads up. Again I repeat She shouldn't have done what she did. Second point is how do you know what I do now retired, I used to teach in educational establishments and riding kids was a first responder for which I have advanced dbs checks
There goes all of us by the grace of your God


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## Birker2020 (27 January 2022)

BeansNsausages said:



			D) Why are you so blunt and unnecessarily rude?
		
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If you have read it like that then I apologise, no rudeness intended 110%.

But I do keep labouring  the same point that nobody seems to grasp.

I work in construction, so if I hit my horse the way that woman did then the only thing that it would affect is that I might lose my spot on my livery yard and if my boss found out he might not like it (I doubt he'd give diddly squat tbh).  I wouldn't kick my horse and I've never punched a horse either, I have smacked my horse both with my hand and my whip.  But I don't work with children or vulnerable adults so if I lose my temper the only thing that it can do is show people how short tempered I am and that I should learn more appropriate skills to deal with the anger issues 

If I worked as a school teacher or sports coach for example the repercussions would be different and it does matter 100%.

So when so many people put the same thing on here "I've hit my horse does that mean I should lose my job?" (and they work in an office) or "I've walloped  my horse in the past" (and they work as a milkman) its really, really, really not relevant to this case.


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## southerncomfort (27 January 2022)

milliepops said:



			but the rspca aren't taking up this case because she's a teacher, are they? we've moved on from that i thought, to a hypothetical approach to improving animal welfare via randoms filming each other and making complaints.
		
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I'm not sure that's fair MP.

I've taken on board your points and replied politely.

I was never talking about everyone at the yard carrying out surveillance on each other.   I was referring to the serial offenders at shows etc and whether people would be more likely to complain.

I was raising a point for discussion not expressing an opinion.


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## windand rain (27 January 2022)

But it is the animal has still endured that anger whether you are a teacher or a labourer


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## Gallop_Away (27 January 2022)

I am not a teacher, but I work in the legal profession and a lot of my work involves working with vulnerable elderly people.
I was "babysitting" my friend's youngster over Christmas while they were visiting family. One night youngster pinned me to the gate in the field and was basically trying to walk over the top of me. Shouting at her to get back didn't work, and pushing her away with my hands wasn't working, so I gave her a swift boot to the chest. Was it pleasant, no, would I do it again if the situation called for it? Definitely.
Now do I deserve to loose my job over this? Afterall I kicked a horse? I could do the same to someone's gran?


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## milliepops (27 January 2022)

windand rain said:



			But it is the animal has still endured that anger whether you are a teacher or a labourer
		
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yeah and this post being about the RSPCA taking her to court means that anyone who did the same as her could face the same - they might get to keep their job after that or they might not.


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## tristar (27 January 2022)

Gallop_Away said:



			I am not a teacher, but I work in the legal profession and a lot of my work involves working with vulnerable elderly people.
I was "babysitting" my friend's youngster over Christmas while they were visiting family. One night youngster pinned me to the gate in the field and was basically trying to walk over the top of me. Shouting at her to get back didn't work, and pushing her away with my hands wasn't working, so I gave her a swift boot to the chest. Was it pleasant, no, would I do it again if the situation called for it? Definitely.
Now do I deserve to loose my job over this? Afterall I kicked a horse? I could do the same to someone's gran?
		
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depends what the gran was doing?


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## Birker2020 (27 January 2022)

windand rain said:



			But it is the animal has still endured that anger whether you are a teacher or a labourer
		
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Yes of course it is.  But that wasn't what the post was about.  The post was directed at the people who think its unfair she lost her job, or that it was an over reaction.  And it certainly wasn't. 

As for the RSPCA involvement I was surprised to learn they were taking her to court and did wonder why myself but as we are not party to knowing the details its hard to know.


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## milliepops (27 January 2022)

southerncomfort said:



			I'm not sure that's fair MP.

I've taken on board your points and replied politely.

I was never talking about everyone at the yard carrying out surveillance on each other.   I was referring to the serial offenders at shows etc and whether people would be more likely to complain.

I was raising a point for discussion not expressing an opinion.
		
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and i was responding to Birker telling another poster that her example was irrelevant as she wasn't a teacher. but i don't think the RSPCA are particularly fussed that the woman in question is a teacher, I'd assume they'd do the same if a shop worker was filmed doing the same thing. 

OK it was an offhand comment about filming. but i'm not sure that behaviour at shows is particularly different to behaviour out hacking or at home on the yard or indeed hunting. if people can't hold their tempers in public at a show then I'd hazard that it will be worse at home.  Hence the idea of surveillance being confined to shows seems a bit limited?  Further, lots of people who mistreat horses never even go to shows. I am sure we all want to see better behaviour at shows but I can't imagine how you could have private citizens driving this rather than stewards or officials. what if someone's sour-grapes ex partner turned up trying to cause trouble for them and thought, oh i'll just film them at a show and edit it all to make them look like a terrible person? 

I understand your motivation i think, and I would agree with that, we all want to improve things, but we can't have a frying pan/fire situ :/


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## Birker2020 (27 January 2022)

Gallop_Away said:



			I am not a teacher, but I work in the legal profession and a lot of my work involves working with vulnerable elderly people.
I was "babysitting" my friend's youngster over Christmas while they were visiting family. One night youngster pinned me to the gate in the field and was basically trying to walk over the top of me. Shouting at her to get back didn't work, and pushing her away with my hands wasn't working, so I gave her a swift boot to the chest. Was it pleasant, no, would I do it again if the situation called for it? Definitely.
Now do I deserve to loose my job over this? Afterall I kicked a horse? I could do the same to someone's gran?
		
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Its not the same thing at all.

You reacted in the way you did as you were under threat by the horse that could have caused you untold damage.  The vet told me to stick a biro in my youngsters ribs (horse) when he tried to pin me against the wall. Again under imminent danger.  Anyone who has had a horse stand on their foot knows how pointless it is trying to push against the weight of a horse.  A sharp jab with your thumb to the shoulder or flank and they will get off you a lot quicker.


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## Gallop_Away (27 January 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			Its not the same thing at all.

You reacted in the way you did as you were under threat by the horse that could have caused you untold damage.  The vet told me to stick a biro in my youngsters ribs (horse) when he tried to pin me against the wall. Again under imminent danger.  Anyone who has had a horse stand on their foot knows how pointless it is trying to push against the weight of a horse.  A sharp jab with your thumb to the shoulder or flank and they will get off you a lot quicker.
		
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But I still reacted in a "violent" manner towards a horse. If someone had filmed me and posted the clip on social media it may very well have had the same reaction. 
Just for the record I don't make a point of booting nanas as unruly as they can get on times.....


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## Birker2020 (27 January 2022)

Gallop_Away said:



			But I still reacted in a "violent" manner towards a horse. If someone had filmed me and posted the clip on social media it may very well have had the same reaction.
Just for the record I don't make a point of booting nanas as unruly as they can get on times.....
		
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Well in my eyes there's a huge difference but still.


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## milliepops (27 January 2022)

its a complicated thing. Gallop Away could have been said to cause that horse suffering by kicking it - OK in the situation where you are in personal danger you decide as the puny human that your life is more important than the horse getting kicked so you do it (probably most of us would do something similar when threatened) But the horse feels the same kick that someone else might administer in temper.

How do you identify the threshold between when someone was acting in self defense (from a horse that only acts and doesn't have calculated motivations and  - particularly with a youngster, is not capable of much in the way of thinking about what it does to people) and when someone was just cross? it might be both at once.   if relying on a snip of video evidence it's particularly difficult to be black and white about what is and isn't OK.

Ugh. for me it all boils down to we shouldn't ride horses really. There is no way to assure ourselves collectively that they will never suffer.  The longer i have nothing to ride the more i feel like i don't ever want to do it again


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## Sandstone1 (27 January 2022)

eahotson said:



			We pay to watch things like that and people frequently win big prizes doing just that.
		
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Then its time it changed is it not?


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## Sandstone1 (27 January 2022)

I do not dispute this woman has had a hard time on social media, thats the way life is now though like it or not.  People can no longer get away with stuff like this because of mobile phone cameras and social media.  If thats right or wrong is a whole other discussion but like it or not its the way life is now.


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## YorksG (27 January 2022)

Sandstone1 said:



			I do not dispute this woman has had a hard time on social media, thats the way life is now though like it or not.  People can no longer get away with stuff like this because of mobile phone cameras and social media.  If thats right or wrong is a whole other discussion but like it or not its the way life is now.
		
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No, it is this discussion and some of us still believe in the rule of actual law, rather than mob rule and the law of the loudest voices.


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## Tiddlypom (27 January 2022)

windand rain said:



			Wonder what a video of me feeding 5 ponies in a field would look like. Flailing arms to get each one to the right bucket and the odd one throwing its head up as if it had been hit. I don't hit but don't worry too much if they walk into a bump
		
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I have to say that feeding time at yours sounds rather alarming if flailing arms and the occasional bump are needed on a regular basis .

Isn't there a safer way (safer for you and for them) of feeding them all?

You couldn't pay me enough to take on feeding 5 horses loose in a field unless the ground rules were very firmly established so that each horse calmly waited for its turn.


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## paddy555 (27 January 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			If you have read it like that then I apologise, no rudeness intended 110%.

But I do keep labouring  the same point that nobody seems to grasp.

I work in construction, so if I hit my horse the way that woman did then the only thing that it would affect is that I might lose my spot on my livery yard and if my boss found out he might not like it (I doubt he'd give diddly squat tbh).  I wouldn't kick my horse and I've never punched a horse either, I have smacked my horse both with my hand and my whip.  But I don't work with children or vulnerable adults so if I lose my temper the only thing that it can do is show people how short tempered I am and that I should learn more appropriate skills to deal with the anger issues 

If I worked as a school teacher or sports coach for example the repercussions would be different and it does matter 100%.

So when so many people put the same thing on here "I've hit my horse does that mean I should lose my job?" (and they work in an office) or "I've walloped  my horse in the past" (and they work as a milkman) its really, really, really not relevant to this case.
		
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her occupation has no relevance at all.

You've smacked your horse with  your  hand and whip. You work in construction. What's to stop you what's to stop you dropping something on a disagreeable fellow worker from a height. Nothing. Lots of dangerous things on building sites that could people at risk if you lost your temper again. 

I doubt you would and equally her as well.


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## Fellewell (27 January 2022)

dorsetladette said:



			Sorry I just quickly googled the article and didn't read the content. It read very differently in the local rag.
		
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Do you mean The Echo?

A more recent quote printed in The Daily Echo from Cllr Edward Heron; Leader of New Forest District Council: "_It's sad that Chris Packham sometimes appears unwilling to allow facts and the opinion of genuine experts get in the way of his own sensationalist self-promotion. There are many threats to the Forest but the commoners and their livestock isn't one of them"._


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## honetpot (27 January 2022)

Upthecreek said:



			It depends what the teenager does to the pony as a result of losing their temper. I was stewarding at the weekend and a girl got eliminated. As she was leaving the arena she booted the horse in the ribs, got off and roughly yanked the reins over his head whilst shouting he was a f*cking tw*t. I went and spoke to her and told her in front of her mother that I could see she was upset and frustrated but her behaviour was unacceptable and we would not want to see it happen again at future events. We don’t always need to report people, but I believe we should be prepared to call out bad behaviour if we see it.
		
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 I agree, but they were not outed on social media, and had their name plastered all over. As it's in a public place, it could have been filmed. I agree stewards ought to take more of a hand, but most are not trained, most of the time they are giving their time for free, and then when they get abuse, or the show's organiser gets abuse on social media it all gets out of hand.
  I have stewarded at large affiliated shows where there is comprehensive H&S, and the ,some bodies back field sort, where often apart from whips,dogs, poo and rubbish, there is not a lot mentioned, looking for trouble is the last thing they want. It's been hard enough to get a system that tries to stop people doping horses in the ring, plus the whole mess of height certificates.


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## Birker2020 (27 January 2022)

paddy555 said:



			her occupation has no relevance at all.

You've smacked your horse with  your  hand and whip. You work in construction. What's to stop you what's to stop you dropping something on a disagreeable fellow worker from a height. Nothing. Lots of dangerous things on building sites that could people at risk if you lost your temper again.

I doubt you would and equally her as well.
		
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Except I'm a document controller so wouldn't be able to access site??
And construction workers don't have children or vulnerable adults working under them as a rule.
So how can I phrase this so I don't offend you (like I apparently did YCBM) - would you be happy for someone like the person in question to look after your young children given that she loses her temper so easily?


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## milliepops (27 January 2022)

we don't KNOW she loses her temper easily, though.
we only know that she hit that horse on that day.


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## Upthecreek (27 January 2022)

honetpot said:



			I agree, but they were not outed on social media, and had their name plastered all over. As it's in a public place, it could have been filmed. I agree stewards ought to take more of a hand, but most are not trained, most of the time they are giving their time for free, and then when they get abuse, or the show's organiser gets abuse on social media it all gets out of hand.
  I have stewarded at large affiliated shows where there is comprehensive H&S, and the ,some bodies back field sort, where often apart from whips,dogs, poo and rubbish, there is not a lot mentioned, looking for trouble is the last thing they want. It's been hard enough to get a system that tries to stop people doping horses in the ring, plus the whole mess of height certificates.
		
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One of the things I said to the girl was that her behaviour could have been filmed and shared on social media and I asked her how she would feel about that. She said she would feel embarrassed and ashamed of herself. Who knows, maybe it will remind her to think about her conduct in future, maybe it won’t.


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## Asha (27 January 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			Except I'm a document controller so wouldn't be able to access site??
And construction workers don't have children or vulnerable adults working under them as a rule.
So how can I phrase this so I don't offend you (like I apparently did YCBM) - would you be happy for someone like the person in question to look after your young children given that she loses her temper so easily?
		
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in this day and age, i would expect that if she had lost her temper with the children it would have been already been picked up. When my children where at primary school they loved to come home and talk about the day, especially if someone had been naughty or had been told off.  
I really dont like this assumption that because of this one incident she must have anger issues. Weve all done things we are not proud of. 
Unless you know the person in question of course ?


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## eahotson (27 January 2022)

southerncomfort said:



			I'm not sure that's fair MP.

I've taken on board your points and replied politely.

I was never talking about everyone at the yard carrying out surveillance on each other.   I was referring to the serial offenders at shows etc and whether people would be more likely to complain.

I was raising a point for discussion not expressing an opinion.
		
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Well said.


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## Shilasdair (27 January 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			If you have read it like that then I apologise, no rudeness intended 110%.

But I do keep labouring  the same point that nobody seems to grasp.

I work in construction, so if I hit my horse the way that woman did then the only thing that it would affect is that I might lose my spot on my livery yard and if my boss found out he might not like it (I doubt he'd give diddly squat tbh).  I wouldn't kick my horse and I've never punched a horse either, I have smacked my horse both with my hand and my whip.  But I don't work with children or vulnerable adults so if I lose my temper the only thing that it can do is show people how short tempered I am and that I should learn more appropriate skills to deal with the anger issues 

If I worked as a school teacher or sports coach for example the repercussions would be different and it does matter 100%.

So when so many people put the same thing on here "I've hit my horse does that mean I should lose my job?" (and they work in an office) or "I've walloped  my horse in the past" (and they work as a milkman) its really, really, really not relevant to this case.
		
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It's not that no-one 'grasps your point' - it's that few of us agree with you.
And I don't know why you think it's fine for you to abuse your horse with your hand and whip (how the RSPCA would view it) but are baying for the teacher's blood at the same time?
Or do you live in some special gated community where you can't access any children ever, so they are all safe from your violent urges?   
Someone's job is completely irrelevant to offences under the Animal Welfare laws.


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## windand rain (27 January 2022)

Tiddlypom said:



			I have to say that feeding time at yours sounds rather alarming if flailing arms and the occasional bump are needed on a regular basis .

Isn't there a safer way (safer for you and for them) of feeding them all?


You couldn't pay me enough to take on feeding 5 horses loose in a field unless the ground rules were very firmly established so that each horse calmly waited for its turn.
		
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It's fun I like my space they are young and like to be close I keep them at arms length so am as safe as houses. They're very good just sounds alarming. The odd bump is when they get too close it reminds them to give me space. After all I am only little they need to remember I am there. Makes me look bigger that's all. Manners in everything have to be learned


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## paddy555 (27 January 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			Except I'm a document controller so wouldn't be able to access site??
And construction workers don't have children or vulnerable adults working under them as a rule.
So how can I phrase this so I don't offend you (like I apparently did YCBM) - would you be happy for someone like the person in question to look after your young children given that she loses her temper so easily?
		
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not only would I be happy I would think she is probably the safest teacher in the country. She will be aware that people have criticised if she would hit kids and that her every move near them would be watched and under scrutiny.


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## Sandstone1 (27 January 2022)

YorksG said:



			No, it is this discussion and some of us still believe in the rule of actual law, rather than mob rule and the law of the loudest voices.
		
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Well as the title of the thread is about the teacher going to court, I rather thought that was the discussion.


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## YorksG (27 January 2022)

Sandstone1 said:



			Well as the title of the thread is about the teacher going to court, I rather thought that was the discussion.
		
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Did you not read the rest of the thread? I thought you had done..


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## Tiddlypom (27 January 2022)

YorksG said:



			No, it is this discussion and some of us still believe in the rule of actual law, rather than mob rule and the law of the loudest voices.
		
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But now the RSPCA has decided to take this case to court, it *is* going to be tried under the actual law, not by mob rule and the loudest voices 🤷‍♀️.  She might be found not guilty.

I'm another who thinks that the RSPCA were going to be damned by the opposing factions whatever they did.

Do the RSPCA get everything right? No, of course they don't. But I have had a fair few dealings with them when fostering ponies from them, and the staff on the ground that I've worked with have been excellent. These hard working foot soldiers do not deserve all this vitriolic opprobrium being poured over them.


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## YorksG (27 January 2022)

Tiddlypom said:



			But now the RSPCA has decided to take this case to court, it *is* going to be tried under the actual law, not by mob rule and the loudest voices 🤷‍♀️.  She might be found not guilty.

I'm another who thinks that the RSPCA were going to be damned by the opposing factions whatever they did.

Do the RSPCA get everything right? No, of course they don't. But I have had a fair few dealings with them when fostering ponies from them, and the staff on the ground that I've worked with have been excellent. These hard working foot soldiers do not deserve all this vitriolic opprobrium being poured over them.
		
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The RSPCA only ever seem to prosecute against "soft" targets. I doubt that the general public would have remembered the case to expressan opinion. I do accept that the sabs who videod the incident have probably been lobbying, along with packham, for the charity to take this prosecution. The sooner the charity pass this role on to the CPS the better.


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## ycbm (27 January 2022)

Tiddlypom said:



			But now the RSPCA has decided to take this case to court, it *is* going to be tried under the actual law, not by mob rule and the loudest voices 🤷‍♀️. She might be found not guilty.
		
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She has already been tried,  found guilty and sentenced by mob rule. 

This criminal prosecution is in addition to that. 

I don't believe that the RSPCA would have chosen to prosecute this case without the social media storm.  
.


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## Sandstone1 (27 January 2022)

YorksG said:



			Did you not read the rest of the thread? I thought you had done..
		
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Yes I have read it.   It does not change the fact that its about the Rspca taking her to court.  Social media has played a part in it there is no doubt about that.  This is the world we live in now.


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## YorksG (27 January 2022)

Sandstone1 said:



			Yes I have read it.   It does not change the fact that its about the Rspca taking her to court.  Social media has played a part in it there is no doubt about that.  This is the world we live in now.
		
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The title of the thread is hardly neutral, yet another instance of the "mob" deciding the facts, from " evidence " gleaned from Internet posts from sources with an agenda.


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## Sandstone1 (27 January 2022)

YorksG said:



			The title of the thread is hardly neutral, yet another instance of the "mob" deciding the facts, from " evidence " gleaned from Internet posts from sources with an agenda.
		
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Well, like it or not there is evidence of what happened.  The fact is she did hit the pony.  The rest will be up to the court to decide.


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## YorksG (27 January 2022)

Sandstone1 said:



			Well, like it or not there is evidence of what happened.  The fact is she did hit the pony.  The rest will be up to the court to decide.
		
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It will not be up to the court to decide if she was " sacked". The fact that she is/ was a teacher is not relevant, either to the allegations or to the possible prosecution, but it's paraded on here again. We do not know if it was raw footage that we saw, or edited, a court should be able to find that out.  You do not know for a fact that she hit the pony, unless you were there yourself.


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## smolmaus (27 January 2022)

YorksG said:



			It will not be up to the court to decide if she was " sacked". The fact that she is/ was a teacher is not relevant, either to the allegations or to the possible prosecution, but it's paraded on here again. We do not know if it was raw footage that we saw, or edited, a court should be able to find that out.  You do not know for a fact that she hit the pony, unless you were there yourself.
		
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Did the sabs deepfake some random woman and it was so convincing that she herself believed she hit her horse and never denied doing it? 

New heights!!


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## YorksG (27 January 2022)

smolmaus said:



			Did the sabs deepfake some random woman and it was so convincing that she herself believed she hit her horse and never denied doing it?

New heights!!
		
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Now that is a ridiculous response, especially when discussing possible legal actions.  There is a process, even if the mob don't like that fact.  You( one) cannot categorically state a *thing* happened if you ( one) did not see it, or it has not been tested to a standard of proof.


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## YorksG (27 January 2022)

smolmaus said:



			Did the sabs deepfake some random woman and it was so convincing that she herself believed she hit her horse and never denied doing it?

New heights!!
		
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Also, do you recall that initially a totally different woman was named, and the mob were out for her job and blood?


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## Sandstone1 (27 January 2022)

Its just easier to put some people on UI.


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## TPO (27 January 2022)

🙄🙄🙄

I made the title using all the key terms so that the thread was findable because I couldn't find the original thread, only the much shorter second one.

The last I'd read on the original thread it was said/implied that she had been let go (sacked) from her job. Admittedly I didn't even begin to verify that, no idea how I would, and I got bored of the thread because it was way off topic arguing about minute taking...

So if there's an issue with the title that's on me not @Sandstone1


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## YorksG (27 January 2022)

Well I certainly equate this thread title with the sensationalised headlines in comics like the sun.


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## TPO (27 January 2022)

YorksG said:



			Well I certainly equate this thread title with the sensationalised headlines in comics like the sun.
		
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Clearly I'm in the wrong job then 💁🏼‍♀️


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## minesadouble (27 January 2022)

tristar said:



			the video shows a child loading a pony, should a child be loading a pony, no it should not'
		
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My children have always loaded their own ponies, from a very young age! I'm actually bemused as to why this is wrong??


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## minesadouble (27 January 2022)

Tiddlypom said:



			But now the RSPCA has decided to take this case to court, it *is* going to be tried under the actual law, not by mob rule and the loudest voices 🤷‍♀️.  She might be found not guilty.

I'm another who thinks that the RSPCA were going to be damned by the opposing factions whatever they did.

Do the RSPCA get everything right? No, of course they don't. But I have had a fair few dealings with them when fostering ponies from them, and the staff on the ground that I've worked with have been excellent. These hard working foot soldiers do not deserve all this vitriolic opprobrium being poured over them.
		
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I wouldn't touch the RSPCA with a bargepole, no matter what the circumstances, on the basis that they are a corrupt organisation. 
With regard to the employees, someone I know worked for them, breaking and 'schooling' their horses for rehoming, despite the fact she can't ride one side of a decent, well schooled horse. I was incredulous when I discovered her role withing the organisation but not at all surprised.


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## smolmaus (27 January 2022)

YorksG said:



			Now that is a ridiculous response, especially when discussing possible legal actions.  There is a process, even if the mob don't like that fact.  You( one) cannot categorically state a *thing* happened if you ( one) did not see it, or it has not been tested to a standard of proof.
		
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I am also neither judge nor jury, nor part of any mob or court case. To start nit picking to that degree, like we on the forum cannot possibly say this woman did anything unless were were 3 feet away is ridiculous and deserved a ridiculous response imo. I honestly can't remember what her name even is and wouldn't know her if she knocked on my door so when I say "she" or "her" I mean the woman shown in the video. If it was all edited as part of a conspiracy against some random teacher and she in fact kindly patted him on the nose or has a doppelganger I will comment on that as I see it as well. It might as well all be made up for all the effect my opinion, or anyone else's here, has on the whole thing.


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## honetpot (27 January 2022)

smolmaus said:



			I am also neither judge nor jury, nor part of any mob or court case. To start nit picking to that degree, like we on the forum cannot possibly say this woman did anything unless were were 3 feet away is ridiculous and deserved a ridiculous response imo. I honestly can't remember what her name even is and wouldn't know her if she knocked on my door so when I say "she" or "her" I mean the woman shown in the video. If it was all edited as part of a conspiracy against some random teacher and she in fact kindly patted him on the nose or has a doppelganger I will comment on that as I see it as well. It might as well all be made up for all the effect my opinion, or anyone else's here, has on the whole thing.
		
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 We had a man break in to our house one night, he broke the front door, he had an axe, my husband showed him into the kitchen, because he wanted food, I escaped out of the broken door, and got the neighbours to call the police. Even though they caught him sat outside eating the food from the fridge, picnic eggs, with the axe, the police spent two hours taking statements, because he could deny what happened, if it went to court. If you think you have a chance of going to prison, or even having your reputation ruined, you are going to look at any piece of evidence, and check that any footage isn't altered, or if the camera angle alter the perspective of what happened.  I think checking what we are seeing is a true representation of what happened is important.


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## Birker2020 (28 January 2022)

Asha said:



			in this day and age, i would expect that if she had lost her temper with the children it would have been already been picked up. When my children where at primary school they loved to come home and talk about the day, especially if someone had been naughty or had been told off.
I really dont like this assumption that because of this one incident she must have anger issues. Weve all done things we are not proud of.
Unless you know the person in question of course ?
		
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I phrashed the sentence "Would you be happy for someone like the person in question". Don't try and suggest i know the person as I don't. My role ended many many years ago. And although i wouldn't say I'm completely anti hunting i personally dislike it and don't mix with anyone that does although that's just the way it is, not that i deliberately avoid people who do. 

For me (and many others who have their head screwed on) i wouldn't feel happy if someone who lost their temper so easily and so aggressively for such a prolonged period was in charge of my child.

There are many on this thread that have said the same. 

My new horse has been hit somewhere in his dim and distant past. One day he was inside his stable kicking his door. I raised my index finger to him and said a gruff "No!". Seconds later i went into his stable to retrieve a bucket with no intention of taking the telling off any further. However, he fled to the back of the stable visibly shaking. Broke my heart that he expected to be walloped.


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## Sandstone1 (28 January 2022)

It seems like you can not have a different opinion to others here anymore.   If you disagree with someone they report the thread to try and get it closed.  I am expecting this one to that way too anytime now.
People are allowed to have different views!


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## Sandstone1 (28 January 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			I phrashed the sentence "Would you be happy for someone like the person in question". Don't try and suggest i know the person as I don't. My role ended many many years ago. And although i wouldn't say I'm completely anti hunting i personally dislike it and don't mix with anyone that does although that's just the way it is, not that i deliberately avoid people who do.

For me (and many others who have their head screwed on) i wouldn't feel happy if someone who lost their temper so easily and so aggressively for such a prolonged period was in charge of my child.

There are many on this thread that have said the same.

My new horse has been hit somewhere in his dim and distant past. One day he was inside his stable kicking his door. I raised my index finger to him and said a gruff "No!". Seconds later i went into his stable to retrieve a bucket with no intention of taking the telling off any further. However, he fled to the back of the stable visibly shaking. Broke my heart that he expected to be walloped.
		
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Sadly, some people seem to think violence to animals is ok.   I have a pony that reacts like that, I dread to think what happened to him in a previous home.


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## ycbm (28 January 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			lost their temper so easily and so aggressively for such a prolonged period
		
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You don't know how easily she lost her temper,  anything could be going on in her life.  If you think that was particularly aggressive then you've lived a quiet life.  The incident is under five seconds.  "Prolonged" it is not.  
.


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## Tiddlypom (28 January 2022)

minesadouble said:



			I wouldn't touch the RSPCA with a bargepole, no matter what the circumstances, on the basis that they are a corrupt organisation.

With regard to the employees, someone I know worked for them, breaking and 'schooling' their horses for rehoming, despite the fact she can't ride one side of a decent, well schooled horse. I was incredulous when I discovered her role withing the organisation but not at all surprised.
		
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With respect to competency of their employees, my experience is very different.

It turned out that the RSPCA staff member who had put most of the work in gaining the confidence of my second foster pony had formerly been head girl for several years at the renowned horse dealership who supplied the legendary Hovis, and also my late maxicob. Anyone who bought from there (mostly young Irish horses brought over to be fully tried out, anglicised and sold on with a warranty) will remember that the proprietor was both very honest and did not suffer fools gladly. Any top stable yard would be delighted to take on an employee with that on their CV.

A former colleague's husband gave up a secure, well paid job as a farm manager to re train as an RSPCA inspector.

The only time that I have called the RSPCA out, which was to 2 horses fly grazing, one of which had grossly deformed front feet, and both were without water much of the time, the inspector who did turn up (unfortunately after the horses had been whisked away) was a trained farrier.


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## smolmaus (28 January 2022)

honetpot said:



			We had a man break in to our house one night, he broke the front door, he had an axe, my husband showed him into the kitchen, because he wanted food, I escaped out of the broken door, and got the neighbours to call the police. Even though they caught him sat outside eating the food from the fridge, picnic eggs, with the axe, the police spent two hours taking statements, because he could deny what happened, if it went to court. If you think you have a chance of going to prison, or even having your reputation ruined, you are going to look at any piece of evidence, and check that any footage isn't altered, or if the camera angle alter the perspective of what happened.  I think checking what we are seeing is a true representation of what happened is important.
		
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Okay but that is the police checking, this is a discussion forum. If you showed me CCTV right now of that man breaking in I'm not going to be like "well this could be altered or fake or someone else, I can't say this terrible thing actually happened to you because I wasn't there at the time". That's just pointlessly argumentative. We don't need to have beyond reasonable doubt to comment here on a video that is freely available online and has been presumably verified far enough for the woman to lose her job and never release any statement of denial. 

(I am very sorry that happened to you honetpot. That is the stuff of nightmares and I hope you and the OH are okay now.)


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## meleeka (28 January 2022)

Sandstone1 said:



			It seems like you can not have a different opinion to others here anymore.   If you disagree with someone they report the thread to try and get it closed.  I am expecting this one to that way too anytime now.
People are allowed to have different views!
		
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There is a minority on this forum who can’t seem to just debate a point without being rude and insulting. Perhaps they don’t realise how what they’ve written comes across, I don’t know, but it’s that that gets posts/threads reported, not differing opinions.


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## honetpot (28 January 2022)

smolmaus said:



			Okay but that is the police checking, this is a discussion forum. If you showed me CCTV right now of that man breaking in I'm not going to be like "well this could be altered or fake or someone else, I can't say this terrible thing actually happened to you because I wasn't there at the time". That's just pointlessly argumentative. We don't need to have beyond reasonable doubt to comment here on a video that is freely available online and has been presumably verified far enough for the woman to lose her job and never release any statement of denial.

(I am very sorry that happened to you honetpot. That is the stuff of nightmares and I hope you and the OH are okay now.)
		
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 All I can say is the police expected it to be a , 'domestic', when they arrested the man they thought it was my husband, until I asked where he was, and they expected the axe to be a kitchen knife, so nothing is believed until seen in person.
   My story it sounds terrible, but you can tell it in context. The man was mentally ill, his mum had died who he lived with and he stopped taking his medication. He wandered in a camper van, feeding and getting fuel from theft from petrol stations on the main roads, on that night he was lost and ended up in our cul-de-sac. Our house was chosen because he wanted food, and the house had the light on and was right it front of him, he broke the door with the axe, but was not aggressive to us. So he was referred for MH treatment, and we did not press charges, we did not want him to him perhaps going to prison, because it could be classed aggravated burglary.
 It did not make the local rag, but you can imagine the headlines if it had, on the night it was terrible, but because we did not make a fuss the children quickly got over it, and when someone asked me how I was about a week later, I had to think why they were asking. 
  Like the discussion about was she sacked, let go, resigned, no one knows unless you were in the room or saw the paperwork. Things can look certain, but when you investigate, it gives you another perspective.


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## Asha (28 January 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			I phrashed the sentence "Would you be happy for someone like the person in question". Don't try and suggest i know the person as I don't. My role ended many many years ago. And although i wouldn't say I'm completely anti hunting i personally dislike it and don't mix with anyone that does although that's just the way it is, not that i deliberately avoid people who do.

For me (and many others who have their head screwed on) i wouldn't feel happy if someone who lost their temper so easily and so aggressively for such a prolonged period was in charge of my child.

There are many on this thread that have said the same.

My new horse has been hit somewhere in his dim and distant past. One day he was inside his stable kicking his door. I raised my index finger to him and said a gruff "No!". Seconds later i went into his stable to retrieve a bucket with no intention of taking the telling off any further. However, he fled to the back of the stable visibly shaking. Broke my heart that he expected to be walloped.
		
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no , you phrased the question ‘ would you be happy with someone like this who loses her temper so easily ‘ you and the rest of us on here have absolutely no idea if she loses her temper quickly . Other than this one incident.  I added the ‘ unless you know her ‘ as you seem to write with the confidence of someone who knows more than the rest of us . So merely asked that question .

your comment about ‘having your head screwed on as you wouldn’t have her teaching your kids ‘ therefore insinuating that I’m bonkers .. is frankly laughable.  (Well maybe i am a bit bonkers, but arent we all.. ) But certainly not with regards the safety of my children.

Its unfortunate that your new horse reacted the way he did. But, you are assuming your new horse has been hit, which may be the case, but its also possible that he hasnt. Maybe he just hasnt settled yet, and once he gets to know you he will feel more comfortable. From your posts hes certainly had a big change in his life which will have unsettled him.


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## BeansNsausages (28 January 2022)

honetpot said:



			All I can say is the police expected it to be a , 'domestic', when they arrested the man they thought it was my husband, until I asked where he was, and they expected the axe to be a kitchen knife, so nothing is believed until seen in person.
   My story it sounds terrible, but you can tell it in context. The man was mentally ill, his mum had died who he lived with and he stopped taking his medication. He wandered in a camper van, feeding and getting fuel from theft from petrol stations on the main roads, on that night he was lost and ended up in our cul-de-sac. Our house was chosen because he wanted food, and the house had the light on and was right it front of him, he broke the door with the axe, but was not aggressive to us. So he was referred for MH treatment, and we did not press charges, we did not want him to him perhaps going to prison, because it could be classed aggravated burglary.
 It did not make the local rag, but you can imagine the headlines if it had, on the night it was terrible, but because we did not make a fuss the children quickly got over it, and when someone asked me how I was about a week later, I had to think why they were asking. 
  Like the discussion about was she sacked, let go, resigned, no one knows unless you were in the room or saw the paperwork. Things can look certain, but when you investigate, it gives you another perspective.
		
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Just want to say how lovely of you it was to not press charges. This man obviously needed help and support. Bless you.


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## tristar (28 January 2022)

minesadouble said:



			My children have always loaded their own ponies, from a very young age! I'm actually bemused as to why this is wrong??
		
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just for safety really, the pony could fall off the ramp and land on another kid, pull back or run forwards, never thought about it before, but is that not what happened in the incident, the pony came off the ramp before entering so kid lost control basically, if she had loaded herself, we might not be here now


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## tristar (28 January 2022)

honetpot said:



			We had a man break in to our house one night, he broke the front door, he had an axe, my husband showed him into the kitchen, because he wanted food, I escaped out of the broken door, and got the neighbours to call the police. Even though they caught him sat outside eating the food from the fridge, picnic eggs, with the axe, the police spent two hours taking statements, because he could deny what happened, if it went to court. If you think you have a chance of going to prison, or even having your reputation ruined, you are going to look at any piece of evidence, and check that any footage isn't altered, or if the camera angle alter the perspective of what happened.  I think checking what we are seeing is a true representation of what happened is important.
		
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you are so cool honeypot, the pony from hell, men with axes


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## honetpot (28 January 2022)

BeansNsausages said:



			Just want to say how lovely of you it was to not press charges. This man obviously needed help and support. Bless you.
		
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 Thank you, but really we didn't want to waste police/court time, and the phrase,'there but for the grace of god go I', it could be our child in trouble, the door was insured, and we were just lucky it went the right way, my husband is a very calm person.


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## paddy555 (28 January 2022)

Tiddlypom said:



			With respect to competency of their employees, my experience is very different.

It turned out that the RSPCA staff member who had put most of the work in gaining the confidence of my second foster pony had formerly been head girl for several years at the renowned horse dealership who supplied the legendary Hovis, and also my late maxicob. Anyone who bought from there (mostly young Irish horses brought over to be fully tried out, anglicised and sold on with a warranty) will remember that the proprietor was both very honest and did not suffer fools gladly. Any top stable yard would be delighted to take on an employee with that on their CV.

A former colleague's husband gave up a secure, well paid job as a farm manager to re train as an RSPCA inspector.

The only time that I have called the RSPCA out, which was to 2 horses fly grazing, one of which had grossly deformed front feet, and both were without water much of the time, the inspector who did turn up (unfortunately after the horses had been whisked away) was a trained farrier.
		
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then you've had a lot better luck with them than I have.


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## honetpot (28 January 2022)

tristar said:



			you are so cool honeypot, the pony from hell, men with axes
		
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  I bet there a lot of people on here who have loads of life experience. I have a joke with my friends, that I have a horror story for every occasion.
 It's how you phrase things, 'the pony from hell' is actually a good PC pony rides, drives, jumps, he just likes to make you know who is in charge, and the 'men with axes', was a man who was going through a MH crisis.


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## paddy555 (28 January 2022)

tristar said:



			just for safety really, the pony could fall off the ramp and land on another kid, pull back or run forwards, never thought about it before, but is that not what happened in the incident, the pony came off the ramp before entering so kid lost control basically, if she had loaded herself, we might not be here now
		
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that is very true and good to have it pointed out. If I had had kids there was no way that would have happened as they would be kept safely in bed wrapped in cotton wool. 

For heaven's sake how is any one supposed to learn as a child, in this case to load a pony, if they don't get the practise in.


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## tristar (28 January 2022)

well i have had kids, so from my point of view, ponies and horses can  be unpredictable, and as many on here testify can be unreliable whilst loading. ie making a mad dash out the front unload trampling whatever is in front of them,  etc, i have experienced enough nervy loaders for it to occur to me , it  might not     be    a    good    idea 

i personally would not allow it, safety comes first here


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## paddy555 (28 January 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			I phrashed the sentence "Would you be happy for someone like the person in question". Don't try and suggest i know the person as I don't. My role ended many many years ago. And although i wouldn't say I'm completely anti hunting i personally dislike it and don't mix with anyone that does although that's just the way it is, not that i deliberately avoid people who do.

For me (and many others who have their head screwed on) i wouldn't feel happy if someone who lost their temper so easily and so aggressively for such a prolonged period was in charge of my child.
		
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I don't like hunting, at all. My first glance at the footage and the hunt element did come into my mind. However the hunting aspect has long gone as the situation is far more worrying as to what the media can do to someone.. I know lots who hunt and lots who don't. I always keep conversations with people within the areas that are not going to cause ill feeling or contention. That way we all get on.

I didn't sees she lost her temper so aggressively and for a prolonged period. She lost it, made a serious error of judgment and should have realised everything she did could be filmed. 
I really doubt the pony was any worse off 10 minutes later. 


What if you were in this position? you made an error, you have now lost your job and you are due in court. You are in a position totally hyped up by the media. Totally out of all proportion. You have no idea where their vitriol will end.


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## paddy555 (28 January 2022)

tristar said:



			well i have had kids, so from my point of view, ponies and horses can  be unpredictable, and as many on here testify can be unreliable whilst loading. ie making a mad dash out the front unload trampling whatever is in front of them,  etc, i have experienced enough nervy loaders for it to occur to me , it  might not     be    a    good    idea

i personally would not allow it, safety comes first here
		
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letting kids around ponies is not safe. Anything can happen,  ponies are unpredictable. 
Letting adults around horses is not safe, anything can happen, just that they are a lot heavier than ponies when it does.

Yet we all do it and the vast majority let their kids as well.


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## Gallop_Away (28 January 2022)

meleeka said:



			There is a minority on this forum who can’t seem to just debate a point without being rude and insulting. Perhaps they don’t realise how what they’ve written comes across, I don’t know, but it’s that that gets posts/threads reported, not differing opinions.
		
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If this is a reply back to the poster I think it is (I can't see if you've quoted anyone as I have this particular poster on ignore) then they are one of the worst offenders for rude and aggressive comments in a debate. 
People are entitled to disagree and debate. It would be so boring if we all shared the same views, but when posters can not debate without being rude and personal, that really is such a shame and the reason why threads get closed.


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## tristar (28 January 2022)

sadly i have known too many kids fatally injured,around horses, so don`t want to discuss this any more


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## tristar (28 January 2022)

paddy555 said:



			letting kids around ponies is not safe. Anything can happen,  ponies are unpredictable. 
Letting adults around horses is not safe, anything can happen, just that they are a lot heavier than ponies when it does.

Yet we all do it and the vast majority let their kids as well.
		
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well when you have kids you can do it your way


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## Gallop_Away (28 January 2022)

paddy555 said:



			I don't like hunting, at all. My first glance at the footage and the hunt element did come into my mind. However the hunting aspect has long gone as the situation is far more worrying as to what the media can do to someone.. I know lots who hunt and lots who don't. I always keep conversations with people within the areas that are not going to cause ill feeling or contention. That way we all get on.

I didn't sees she lost her temper so aggressively and for a prolonged period. She lost it, made a serious error of judgment and should have realised everything she did could be filmed.
I really doubt the pony was any worse off 10 minutes later.


What if you were in this position? you made an error, you have now lost your job and you are due in court. You are in a position totally hyped up by the media. Totally out of all proportion. You have no idea where their vitriol will end.
		
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Quite! I feel very sorry for this woman. She made a mistake. Admittedly a bad one but her life has now been turned upside down. 
We do not know that this woman loses her temper easily. All the know is that she lost her temper on this occasion. We have no idea what was happening before this video was taken, no clue what could be going on in her personal life. We know literally nothing about her. But people have decided exactly what type of person she is based on a 5 second clip.....


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## Birker2020 (28 January 2022)

Gallop_Away said:



			If this is a reply back to the poster I think it is (I can't see if you've quoted anyone as I have this particular poster on ignore) then they are one of the worst offenders for rude and aggressive comments in a debate.
People are entitled to disagree and debate. It would be so boring if we all shared the same views, but when posters can not debate without being rude and personal, that really is such a shame and the reason why threads get closed.
		
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A lot of it is down to interpretation

Like it was with the a) b) c) post that I made.  100% not meant to be rude or direct or anything else, just the way I phrase things, I was amazed someone could interpret it any other way than the way it was meant to survey.  But I think that says more about the person and what they think of me in general than what I wrote.


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## Gallop_Away (28 January 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			A lot of it is down to interpretation

Like it was with the a) b) c) post that I made.  100% not meant to be rude or direct or anything else, just the way I phrase things, I was amazed someone could interpret it any other way than the way it was meant to survey.  But I think that says more about the person and what they think of me in general than what I wrote.
		
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Not directed at you birker. I realise it's difficult to convey meaning writing on a forum and some things are misinterpreted.
However there are some who are blatantly rude and aggressive in their posts. It is a shame because it drags the discussion down


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## SO1 (28 January 2022)

If you are teaching kids to load ponies maybe roadside is not a good place to do it as the risks are greater as if like in this case the pony gets lose and is on a road and could run off and get into a traffic accident. 

In a field at a show where the pony is less likely to get on to a road would be more sensible. 

Loading on a road is going to be one of the more risky places so you would want to make sure the responsible adult was doing it if possible.



paddy555 said:



			that is very true and good to have it pointed out. If I had had kids there was no way that would have happened as they would be kept safely in bed wrapped in cotton wool. 

For heaven's sake how is any one supposed to learn as a child, in this case to load a pony, if they don't get the practise in.
		
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## tristar (28 January 2022)

SO1 said:



			If you are teaching kids to load ponies maybe roadside is not a good place to do it as the risks are greater as if like in this case the pony gets lose and is on a road and could run off and get into a traffic accident. 

In a field at a show where the pony is less likely to get on to a road would be more sensible. 

Loading on a road is going to be one of the more risky places so you would want to make sure the responsible adult was doing it if possible.
		
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quite, that occurred to me as well, the incident took place on the road, also not the best place to upset the pony by slapping it


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## Birker2020 (28 January 2022)

Asha said:



			no , you phrased the question ‘ would you be happy with someone like this who loses her temper so easily ‘ you and the rest of us on here have absolutely no idea if she loses her temper quickly . Other than this one incident.  I added the ‘ unless you know her ‘ as you seem to write with the confidence of someone who knows more than the rest of us . So merely asked that question .

your comment about ‘having your head screwed on as you wouldn’t have her teaching your kids ‘ therefore insinuating that I’m bonkers .. is frankly laughable.  (Well maybe i am a bit bonkers, but arent we all.. ) But certainly not with regards the safety of my children.

Its unfortunate that your new horse reacted the way he did. But, you are assuming your new horse has been hit, which may be the case, but its also possible that he hasnt. Maybe he just hasnt settled yet, and once he gets to know you he will feel more comfortable. From your posts hes certainly had a big change in his life which will have unsettled him.
		
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Post 279
So how can I phrase this so I don't offend you (like I apparently did YCBM) - would you be happy for someone like the person in question to look after your young children given that she loses her temper so easily?

In other words 'similar to the person in question'.  I prefer horse like WB's. I prefer hot drinks like coffee.  I prefer ice creams like Big Feast.   LIKE  having the same characteristics or qualities as; similar to.

Stop trying to trip me up.  It gets boring after a few years.


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## Sandstone1 (28 January 2022)

meleeka said:



			There is a minority on this forum who can’t seem to just debate a point without being rude and insulting. Perhaps they don’t realise how what they’ve written comes across, I don’t know, but it’s that that gets posts/threads reported, not differing opinions.
		
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People also accuse the wrong poster.  I was accused of saying I didnt care if thousands of hounds were put down when in reality I said no such thing.   I think it was a another poster.  I said stop breeding them but apparently that meant I was cruel and should not call myself a animal lover!   Oh well


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## YorksG (28 January 2022)

Sandstone1 said:



			People also accuse the wrong poster.  I was accused of saying I didnt care if thousands of hounds were put down when in reality I said no such thing.   I think it was a another poster.  I said stop breeding them but apparently that meant I was cruel and should not call myself a animal lover!   Oh well 

Click to expand...

On this thread?


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## Asha (28 January 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			Post 279
So how can I phrase this so I don't offend you (like I apparently did YCBM) - would you be happy for someone like the person in question to look after your young children given that she loses her temper so easily?

In other words 'similar to the person in question'.  I prefer horse like WB's. I prefer hot drinks like coffee.  I prefer ice creams like Big Feast.   LIKE  having the same characteristics or qualities as; similar to.

Stop trying to trip me up.  It gets boring after a few years.
		
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Ok, now  I genuinely havent foggiest as to what you are going on about.  But can say that you havent offended me, takes a bit more than this to upset me. Nope.. dont think ive tried to trip you up either on this thread or on any others.. what a bizarre thing to say.


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## Birker2020 (28 January 2022)

Asha said:



			Ok, now  I genuinely havent foggiest as to what you are going on about.  But can say that you havent offended me, takes a bit more than this to upset me. Nope.. dont think ive tried to trip you up either on this thread or on any others.. what a bizarre thing to say.
		
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No worries


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## blitznbobs (28 January 2022)

There is a big problem in society when it is unacceptable to offend anyone. Voltaire seems to have gone out of the window (i disagree strongly with what you say but will defend to the death your right to say it) … there are some interesting essays on why being able to offend is important and when offence is not tolerated in anyway you end up with situations like the Salem witch trials - its a very interesting read i will try and track down a link


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## tristar (28 January 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			Post 279
So how can I phrase this so I don't offend you (like I apparently did YCBM) - would you be happy for someone like the person in question to look after your young children given that she loses her temper so easily?

In other words 'similar to the person in question'.  I prefer horse like WB's. I prefer hot drinks like coffee.  I prefer ice creams like Big Feast.   LIKE  having the same characteristics or qualities as; similar to.

Stop trying to trip me up.  It gets boring after a few years.
		
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i would not be happy to leave her in charge of a child with a pony, she lacks attentiveness to what is going on, then hits the pony, so i would not be happy to 
 leave her with a pony or child, if either or both were mine


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## Sandstone1 (1 February 2022)

It seems she pleaded not guilty and its going to Crown court.


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## Birker2020 (1 February 2022)

Sandstone1 said:



			It seems she pleaded not guilty and its going to Crown court.
		
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Crown Court??? Most cases are heard at Magistrates Court.  Crown Court is for serious crimes like murder or Magistrates may send a case to the Crown Court if they feel they don't have the power to set a sentence as severe as the crime deserves.

Sometimes you can ask to have your case heard by a Judge and jury. I think she probably elected to have her case heard there as I can't think of any other reason.

Crown Court apparently serves a minimum sentence of 5 years if found guilty.  How she can prove not guilty is beyond me when the video clearly shows what it shows.


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## Sandstone1 (1 February 2022)

I do not know to be honest,  I just saw a update.  I will have another look.
https://metro.co.uk/2022/01/31/form...-and-hitting-horse-appears-in-court-16020399/
It seems she has chosen to go to Crown court herself.


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## ycbm (1 February 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			Crown Court??? Most cases are heard at Magistrates Court.  Crown Court is for serious crimes like murder or Magistrates may send a case to the Crown Court if they feel they don't have the power to set a sentence as severe as the crime deserves.

Sometimes you can ask to have your case heard by a Judge and jury. I think she probably elected to have her case heard there as I can't think of any other reason.

Crown Court apparently serves a minimum sentence of 5 years if found guilty.
		
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Anyone is entitled to a jury trial on request for many offences normally done by Magistrates. ETA they are called "either way" offences.  

It's how the Colston 4 got the verdict they did,  a bench of Magistrates or a District Judge would never,  imo, have let them off a criminal damage charge but the Jury were swayed by the defence barrister telling them to "be on the right side of history". 

Your information on the minimum sentence is completely incorrect,  the sentence relates only to the offence,  not where it is tried.  ETA So is your information on Crown Court, Magistrates Courts can only deal with offences with a potential maximum penalty of 1 year in prison and until this year it was 6 months,  so Crown deals with many offences much less serious than murder. 
.


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## Birker2020 (1 February 2022)

I googled it and that's what it said but happy to stand corrected.


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## Birker2020 (1 February 2022)




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## Birker2020 (1 February 2022)

ycbm said:



			Anyone is entitled to a jury trial on request for many offences normally done by Magistrates. ETA they are called "either way" offences. 

.
		
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_"Sometimes you can ask to have your case heard by a Judge and jury. I think she probably elected to have her case heard there as I can't think of any other reason."_

That's what I said


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## ycbm (1 February 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			I googled it and that's what it said but happy to stand corrected.
		
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Where is that cropped from?  It isn't correct for either way trials or for trials referred up from Magistrates Courts for insufficient sentencing powers.
.


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## ycbm (1 February 2022)

Birker2020 said:



_"Sometimes you can ask to have your case heard by a Judge and jury. I think she probably elected to have her case heard there as I can't think of any other reason."_

That's what I said
		
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I didn't disagree with you 🤷


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## ycbm (1 February 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			I googled it and that's what it said but happy to stand corrected.
		
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Try actually reading the text that Google points to,  not just screen shotting the snippet it returns to show you where to look in the Sentencing Guidelines.




			Minimum Fixed Term Custodial Sentences
*Drug Trafficking *- Section 110 Power of Criminal Courts (Sentencing) Act 2000


The section requires that a Crown Court shall impose a sentence of at least 7 years for a third class A drug trafficking offence if the offender:

was 18 or over when they committed the offence;
committed the offence on or after 30 September 1997;
		
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Your screenshot quote was for a different crime.  The above one is for drug trafficking, same wording. 5 years is the minimum for something other crime,  not for hitting a pony.
.


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## ycbm (1 February 2022)

To make this clear,  I have looked up the report and she has elected to go for trial by jury,  it has not been transferred to Crown because the Magistrates think a year in prison is not a long enough sentence.  
.


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## Pearlsasinger (1 February 2022)

ycbm said:



			To make this clear,  I have looked up the report and she has elected to go for trial by jury,  it has not been transferred to Crown because the Magistrates think a year in prison is not a long enough sentence. 
.
		
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What a complete waste of 'charity' money!  Not that I blame the accused.


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## Birker2020 (1 February 2022)

ycbm said:



			To make this clear,  I have looked up the report and she has elected to go for trial by jury,  it has not been transferred to Crown because the Magistrates think a year in prison is not a long enough sentence.
.
		
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one of the media reports said she'd elected to go to Crown Court so she could be heard by a jury. But last time I gave an instance of this I was told off.  So that's why I didn't bother this time.


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## I'm Dun (1 February 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			one of the media reports said she'd elected to go to Crown Court so she could be heard by a jury. But last time I gave an instance of this I was told off.  So that's why I didn't bother this time.

View attachment 86775

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You werent told off. But people do correct you when you are wrong. Most of the issues you have seem to stem from stating things as absolute truth when you either have limited experience or have done a google search. Then you respond in a very undignified manner which winds other people up.

If you just stuck to giving your opinion as just an opinion then you wouldnt get in half the spats you do now.


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## Birker2020 (1 February 2022)

I'm Dun said:



			You werent told off. But people do correct you when you are wrong. Most of the issues you have seem to stem from stating things as absolute truth when you either have limited experience or have done a google search. Then you respond in a very undignified manner which winds other people up.

If you just stuck to giving your opinion as just an opinion then you wouldnt get in half the spats you do now.
		
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Yes I was told that I'd just got one media article so then quoted the same sentence off about six media stations and got told I'd got too much time on my hands! I can't do right from wrong.

I have never been rude and 'responded in an undignified manner', gosh what a ridiculous thing to say!  If you are going to start accusing me of stuff like this then I'd like to see proof please. THanks.


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## limestonelil (1 February 2022)

Slightly swerving post but relevant. I recently realised that a colleague always goes for the first thing that comes up on Google and doesn't think any further /beyond it /question accuracy /context. Can make some conversations quite interesting or baffling or both.
I think teacher gave a poor display of bad temper, but hasn't deserved the life changing consequences she is to endure. I stopped donating to RSPCA when a previous CEO encouraged prosecutions like this, cost a fortune, he got paid oodles, and yet tragedies like the Arab horse scandal were badly handled , made worse by RSPCA attitude.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (1 February 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			I have never been rude and 'responded in an undignified manner', gosh what a ridiculous thing to say!  If you are going to start accusing me of stuff like this then I'd like to see proof please. THanks.
		
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The above is your opinion.

My opinion is that I completely disagree,  particularly having been on the end of one or more of your very caustic diatribes.
Oh, and dont demand proof,  I've still got the screenshots from last summer,  before said posts were edited and/or removed.....the internet is not the place to be unpleasant and then try to take the moral upper hand....


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## Birker2020 (1 February 2022)

It will be interesting to see what transpires when it eventually comes to Court.  Hopefully we will get a better picture of what has gone on.


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## paddy555 (1 February 2022)

what will happen if she is found not guilty in crown court? If she was sacked (and we don't know if she was) could she be reinstated if she wished?


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## minesadouble (1 February 2022)

With regard to electing to go to Crown it is a fundamental right in our legal system to have the right to be tried by one's peers. I can 100% understand why she would choose to do this in her situation. There is a fair chance that member(s) of the jury may have had a negative experience with the RSPCA which will start her off on a good footing. Juries can also come up with perverse decisions in a way magistrates cannot - see the trial of the protestors hauling down a statue for reference.

With regard to her job, if found NG then she could take her employer to a tribunal, though I doubt she would want her old job back she could be awarded damages.

Good Luck to her I say!

Edited to add I say Good Luck to her as I think this prosecution is utterly frivolous! And not because I sanction kicking a pony!


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## DabDab (1 February 2022)

paddy555 said:



			what will happen if she is found not guilty in crown court? If she was sacked (and we don't know if she was) could she be reinstated if she wished?
		
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Depends on the disciplinary reason that she was fired on the back of (if she was dismissed on the grounds of gross misconduct). Breaking the law is a type of gross misconduct but I can't imagine that's what this lady was dismissed for because how could they reasonably conclude that her conduct was illegal in advance of a trial? Any other type of gross misconduct would not be examined or effected by this trial I wouldn't have thought.


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## conniegirl (1 February 2022)

DabDab said:



			Depends on the disciplinary reason that she was fired on the back of (if she was dismissed on the grounds of gross misconduct). Breaking the law is a type of gross misconduct but I can't imagine that's what this lady was dismissed for because how could they reasonably conclude that her conduct was illegal in advance of a trial? Any other type of gross misconduct would not be examined or effected by this trial I wouldn't have thought.
		
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Bringing a business into disrepute can be construed as gross misconduct


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## Pearlsasinger (1 February 2022)

paddy555 said:



			what will happen if she is found not guilty in crown court? If she was sacked (and we don't know if she was) could she be reinstated if she wished?
		
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If she was sacked, I would imagine that she would take the Multi-Academy Trust to an Employment Tribunal. Re-instatement is highly unusual, the most likely recompense is financial.
And who would want to go back?


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## Birker2020 (1 February 2022)

paddy555 said:



			what will happen if she is found not guilty in crown court? If she was sacked (and we don't know if she was) could she be reinstated if she wished?
		
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Hi Paddy 555, I am confused at why you have doubt that she was sacked when there are about 50 media links stating that "Sarah Moulds, 37, has been sacked from her position at the Mowbray Education Trust in Melton Mowbray"

In a statement on its website, Paul Maddox, chief operating officer of Mowbray Education Trust, confirmed “that Sarah Moulds' employment with the Trust has been terminated.

Terminated means sacked, its just a play on words, surely?


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## YorksG (1 February 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			i don't understand why there is doubt that she was sacked when there are about 50 media links stating that "Sarah Moulds, 37, has been sacked from her position at the Mowbray Education Trust in Melton Mowbray"

In a statement on its website, Paul Maddox, chief operating officer of Mowbray Education Trust, confirmed “that Sarah Moulds' employment with the Trust has been terminated.

Terminated means sacked, its just a play on words.
		
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Terminated means ended, that could be because she was sacked, or it could be because she chose to leave.


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## Pearlsasinger (1 February 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			i don't understand why there is doubt that she was sacked when there are about 50 media links stating that "Sarah Moulds, 37, has been sacked from her position at the Mowbray Education Trust in Melton Mowbray"

In a statement on its website, Paul Maddox, chief operating officer of Mowbray Education Trust, confirmed “that Sarah Moulds' employment with the Trust has been terminated.

Terminated means sacked, its just a play on words.
		
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Terminated means 'ended'. Nowhere does the COO of MET make it clear who ended the employment.


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## Birker2020 (1 February 2022)

Pearlsasinger said:



			If she was sacked, I would imagine that she would take the Multi-Academy Trust to an Employment Tribunal. Re-instatement is highly unusual, the most likely recompense is financial.
And who would want to go back?
		
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I don't understand why she would think she has a case though.  If she was sacked because they felt there was a transference of risk because she works with school children then I would have thought that viewpoint would still be upheld. Unless the way she was fired was incorrect in someway, some procedure wasn't followed correctly or something.

I can guarantee she won't be reinstated. - My viewpoint


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## Birker2020 (1 February 2022)

Pearlsasinger said:



			Terminated means 'ended'. Nowhere does the COO of MET make it clear who ended the employment.
		
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https://www.indeed.com/hire/c/info/what-does-terminated-mean
It appears it can be on both sides but I've only ever heard it used as an employee being terminated, i.e. sacked/fired.


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## Amymay (1 February 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			I don't understand why she would think she has a case though.  If she was sacked because they felt there was a transference of risk because she works with school children then I would have thought that viewpoint would still be upheld. Unless the way she was fired was incorrect in someway, some procedure wasn't followed correctly or something.

I can guarantee she won't be reinstated.
		
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We have no idea why her contract was terminated.

However if you felt you’d been unjustly sacked (especially if found not guilty in court of the offence that _may_ have led to your contract being terminated) wouldn’t you fight it?

I would.


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## YorksG (1 February 2022)

Birker2020 said:



https://www.investopedia.com/terms/t/termination-employment.asp#:~:text=Is Getting Terminated the Same,for the position or company.

It means getting fired in employment speak.
		
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There is a subtle difference, the employer has not said* Who* terminated her employment, I don't understand why you have trouble with this concept.


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## conniegirl (1 February 2022)

Birker2020 said:



https://www.indeed.com/hire/c/info/what-does-terminated-mean
It appears it can be on both sides but I've only ever heard it used as an employee being terminated, i.e. sacked/fired.
		
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Not always, as a great many HR bods on here will tell you. Terminated just means ended. If the employer ends it then it could be being sacked or being made redundant. If the employee ends it, it just means the resigned.

her employer is not allowed to tell anyone which eithet


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## Birker2020 (1 February 2022)

Amymay said:



			We have no idea why her contract was terminated.

However if you felt you’d been unjustly sacked (especially if found not guilty in court of the offence that _may_ have led to your contract being terminated) wouldn’t you fight it?

I would.
		
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If you are a teacher you would know that what you had done was wrong, that it would/could possibly lead to this outcome.  If you are a teacher you have to be very careful what you do outside work.  All teachers should know this.


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## Birker2020 (1 February 2022)

YorksG said:



			There is a subtle difference, the employer has not said* Who* terminated her employment, I don't understand why you have trouble with this concept.
		
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I edited and changed my post (before you hang me again).  
I put a smiley face on in case I'm accused of acting

a) in a very undignified manner
b) told that the internet is not the place to be unpleasant and then try to take the moral upper hand....


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## Amymay (1 February 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			If you are a teacher you would know that what you had done was wrong, that it would/could possibly lead to this outcome.  If you are a teacher you have to be very careful what you do outside work.  All teachers should know this.
		
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Well, yes.  But she clearly thinks she’s done nothing wrong, otherwise she wouldn’t be pushing for trial by jury.


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## YorksG (1 February 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			I edited and changed my post (before you hang me again).  

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May I suggest that you don't keep stating as fact, things which are not correct and then perhaps people won't keep correcting you?


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## Birker2020 (1 February 2022)

YorksG said:



			May I suggest that you don't keep stating as fact, things which are not correct and then perhaps people won't keep correcting you?
		
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Oh dear here we go again.... 
I actually said "It appears it can be on both sides but *I've* (that's me) only ever heard it used as an employee being terminated, i.e. sacked/fired".

That wasn't stating fact.


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## YorksG (1 February 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			Oh dear here we go again.... 

Click to expand...

Just what I thought....


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## Sandstone1 (1 February 2022)

I dont see how she can be found not guilty as clearly she did hit and kick the pony.  If any of the jury have previous bad experience of the Rspca they should declare it as a jury should be completely impartial.   Thats the point!


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## Birker2020 (1 February 2022)

YorksG said:



			Just what I thought....
		
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Just because someone disagrees with you, you don't have to talk down to them, be rude, be patronising or just plain vile.

People are allowed to have an opinion other than yours you know.  Its a forum.


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## Tiddlypom (1 February 2022)

Every main stream media source including the BBC, ITV, Sky news, The Guardian, The Independent plus the usual more excitable tabloids reported that SM had been sacked.

Of course they might all be wrong...


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## Amymay (1 February 2022)

Sandstone1 said:



			I dont see how she can be found not guilty as clearly she did hit and kick the pony.  If any of the jury have previous bad experience of the Rspca they should declare it as a jury should be completely impartial.   Thats the point!
		
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She could argue that she was strongly reprimanding an out of control animal, rather than participating in animal cruelty.


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## cauda equina (1 February 2022)

Sandstone1 said:



			I dont see how she can be found not guilty as clearly she did hit and kick the pony.  If any of the jury have previous bad experience of the Rspca they should declare it as a jury should be completely impartial.   Thats the point!
		
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Weren't the Colston 4 found not guilty of something that they definitely appeared to have done?


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## Birker2020 (1 February 2022)

Tiddlypom said:



			Every main stream media source including the BBC, ITV, Sky news, The Guardian, The Independent plus the usual more excitable tabloids reported that SM had been sacked.

Of course they might all be wrong...
		
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Exactly.  That is what I proved when I included all the links to the media.


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## Sandstone1 (1 February 2022)

Amymay said:



			She could argue that she was strongly reprimanding an out of control animal, rather than participating in animal cruelty.
		
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Then she would be lying.  The pony was hardly out of control and even if it was the way she reacted would hardly have helped.  It was sheer temper and anyone that thinks otherwise needs to take a good look at the way they treat animals.


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## YorksG (1 February 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			Just because someone disagrees with you, you don't have to talk down to them, be rude, be patronising or just plain vile.

People are allowed to have an opinion other than yours you know.  Its a forum.
		
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Quite!


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## Birker2020 (1 February 2022)

YorksG said:



			Quite!
		
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I just hope you and PAS who think someone like this has done nothing wrong aren't teachers. That's all I can say because the way you have defended the actions of someone like this teacher really would make me worried that you can fail to recognise exactly what someone like that has done wrong.

Also that you may have also failed to recognise the possible risk that someone that abuses animals could pose to children in a child care setting should such a person lose her rag.


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## Amymay (1 February 2022)

Sandstone1 said:



			Then she would be lying.  The pony was hardly out of control and even if it was the way she reacted would hardly have helped.  It was sheer temper and anyone that thinks otherwise needs to take a good look at the way they treat animals.
		
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That, ultimately, is for the courts to decide.


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## windand rain (1 February 2022)

It is also up to the courts to decide if she used unacceptaptable force the defendant may claim and provide evidence that it was not unacceptable force and wouldn't have much trouble finding it. The other reason for choosing trial by jury is the media trial will have prejudiced a fair trial which is obviously easily proven too. A foolish and unneccesary trial at great expense to the people who donate to the RSPCA. I do not condone her actions but don't think she deserves the vitriol


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## Pearlsasinger (1 February 2022)

Tiddlypom said:



			Every main stream media source including the BBC, ITV, Sky news, The Guardian, The Independent plus the usual more excitable tabloids reported that SM had been sacked.

Of course they might all be wrong...
		
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Indeed they could be, nobody knows.  The only statement from either side, so far as I am aware was the one by the COO of the Mullti Academy Trust, whichclearly said that the employment had been terminated.  It did not say by whom.   It would be a very foolish employer who did state that an employee had been sacked unless it was as a result of a court case.
I have no idea why people insist on  assuming that the media
 a) always tell the truth
b) have inside info beyond the known facts.


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## Birker2020 (1 February 2022)

What happened to this case as the RSPCA were taking an interest in this.  Did it go to Court?

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/huntsman-punches-horse-face-calls-25449090


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## Birker2020 (1 February 2022)

Pearlsasinger said:



			Indeed they could be, nobody knows.  The only statement from either side, so far as I am aware was the one by the COO of the Mullti Academy Trust, whichclearly said that the employment had been terminated.  It did not say by whom.   It would be a very foolish employer who did state that an employee had been sacked unless it was as a result of a court case.
I have no idea why people insist on  assuming that the media
a) always tell the truth
b) have inside info beyond the known facts.
		
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Because if there was just one media stating that then you wouldn't particuarly believe them, but there were about 20 media links so it would seem more reasonable to suspect that they are correct.


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## conniegirl (1 February 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			Because if there was just one media stating that then you wouldn't particuarly believe them, but there were about 20 media links so it would seem more reasonable to suspect that they are correct.
		
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Not really, the only knowledge is that the employment was terminated. No one knows by whom, however the news rags have all decided to interpret it as her being fired. They will not know that for sure, however it makes for a better story so they will run with it


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## Pearlsasinger (1 February 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			Because if there was just one media stating that then you wouldn't particuarly believe them, but there were about 20 media links so it would seem more reasonable to suspect that they are correct.
		
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They often all get their info from the same source.  It seems to me that several people have taken the word 'terminate' to mean what you did, without bothering to think about the actual meaning of the word.

Having worked in education for decades, I can be almost certain that the statement put put by the employer had been agreed with the employee's union (almost every teacher in the land is a union member) and was deliberately unclear.


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## Sandstone1 (1 February 2022)

Amymay said:



			That, ultimately, is for the courts to decide.
		
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It is indeed.    The only way things will change is to bring things like this to court.  While some will think its a over reaction times change and people need to know that losing your temper with a animal is never right.  I am not a fan of the Rspca and do agree that there are other serious cases of cruelty that do not get to court.   would people have felt the same if it was a dog she kicked and slapped?


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## paddy555 (1 February 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			Hi Paddy 555, I am confused at why you have doubt that she was sacked when there are about 50 media links stating that "Sarah Moulds, 37, has been sacked from her position at the Mowbray Education Trust in Melton Mowbray"

In a statement on its website, Paul Maddox, chief operating officer of Mowbray Education Trust, confirmed “that Sarah Moulds' employment with the Trust has been terminated.

Terminated means sacked, its just a play on words, surely?
		
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I do appreciate that you really really hope she was sacked. If she was sacked surely she would have been dismissed ie ordered to leave/removed from her employment. 

Her employment was terminated ie brought to an end. Question is who brought it to an end. Her or the education authority or was there some mutual agreement. 

I am sure PAS and the others will have educated you on the term "terminated' haven't read all the posts.


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## paddy555 (1 February 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			I don't understand why she would think she has a case though.  If she was sacked because they felt there was a transference of risk because she works with school children then I would have thought that viewpoint would still be upheld. Unless the way she was fired was incorrect in someway, some procedure wasn't followed correctly or something.

I can guarantee she won't be reinstated. - My viewpoint
		
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we don't know if she was sacked, you keep saying she was but there is no evidence to that effect. There never will be as that is between her and the education trust. Whatever arrangement they came to. I cannot see how you can comment about a transference of risk to kids. What is your evidence? If you don't have any then I think you should stop posting using "sacked" and about risks to children. You keep making a lot of assumptions based on what you would like her to be guilty of.


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## paddy555 (1 February 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			Because if there was just one media stating that then you wouldn't particuarly believe them, but there were about 20 media links so it would seem more reasonable to suspect that they are correct.
		
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Jeez, let's have trial by media. The verdict is bound to be correct then. One media source, innocent, half a dozen more questionable and 20? Well guilty as sin and string her up.


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## paddy555 (1 February 2022)

Pearlsasinger said:



			If she was sacked, I would imagine that she would take the Multi-Academy Trust to an Employment Tribunal. Re-instatement is highly unusual, the most likely recompense is financial.
And who would want to go back?
		
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yes I can't see anyone would want to go back. I just wondered if not guilty then the whole position would change and how it would change. Just musing really 
If not guilty we could of course have another thread of several pages deciding if the  jury had reached the correct verdict.


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## Birker2020 (1 February 2022)

paddy555 said:



			I do appreciate that you really really hope she was sacked. If she was sacked surely she would have been dismissed ie ordered to leave/removed from her employment.

Her employment was terminated ie brought to an end. Question is who brought it to an end. Her or the education authority or was there some mutual agreement.

I am sure PAS and the others will have educated you on the term "terminated' haven't read all the posts.
		
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I have never stated that I really really hoped she was sacked.  I do think that the reason why someone in her position may have been could have been because there was a possible transference of risk.  I did admit that there was a possibility that she may have put the school into disrepute by her actions although this could be less likely.   I don't know, nobody does, we've all speculated on this.

Yes it is correct that termination doesn't necessarily mean on their part, she could have terminated the contract too.  BUt I said in my experience when you are terminated as the newspaper articles suggested it normally means you have been sacked or that at least is/was my interpretation.

She was suspended  (again newspaper articles say this) and this is usually on full pay pending the outcome of an investigation.  As I explained numerous times - if an allegation arises about a member of staff, outside of their work with children, and this may present a risk of harm/risk of children for whom the member of staff is responsible through their employment/volunteering, a POT meeting is usually convened.  We don't know if this happened in her case. It may have, it might not have.

A POT meeting is a multi agency meeting without the person of interest being there and  they will consider the current allegation in the context of any previous allegations or concerns (not suggesting there were/are any) and consider what support should be provided to the member of staff and others who may be affected and how they will be kept up to date with the progress of the investigation.  They will also make recommendations where appropriate regarding suspension, or alternatives to suspension like additional training if this is deemed to be a better alternative.

I never said this had happened to her I just said I had thought that it might.  If people wish to interpret what I've said to suit their own agenda then that is fine but like you saying "I know you really, really wish she was sacked" its totally inaccurate.


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## Pearlsasinger (1 February 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			I have never stated that I really really hoped she was sacked.  I do think that the reason why someone in her position may have been could have been because there was a possible transference of risk.  I did admit that there was a possibility that she may have put the school into disrepute by her actions although this could be less likely.   I don't know, nobody does, we've all speculated on this.

Yes it is correct that termination doesn't necessarily mean on their part, she could have terminated the contract too.  BUt I said in my experience when you are terminated as the newspaper articles suggested it normally means you have been sacked or that at least is/was my interpretation.

She was suspended  (again newspaper articles say this) and this is usually on full pay pending the outcome of an investigation.  As I explained numerous times - if an allegation arises about a member of staff, outside of their work with children, and this may present a risk of harm/risk of children for whom the member of staff is responsible through their employment/volunteering, a POT meeting is usually convened.  We don't know if this happened in her case. It may have, it might not have.

A POT meeting is a multi agency meeting without the person of interest being there and  they will consider the current allegation in the context of any previous allegations or concerns (not suggesting there were/are any) and consider what support should be provided to the member of staff and others who may be affected and how they will be kept up to date with the progress of the investigation.  They will also make recommendations where appropriate regarding suspension, or alternatives to suspension like additional training if this is deemed to be a better alternative.

I never said this had happened to her I just said I had thought that it might.  If people wish to interpret what I've said to suit their own agenda then that is fine but like you saying "I know you really, really wish she was sacked" its totally inaccurate.
		
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As explained by a temporary minute taker


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## YorksG (1 February 2022)

She was not "terminated " her employment terminated, there is*Nothing* to say who by.  There is no evidence of any safeguarding meeting, or of any "transfer" of risk. That you have repeated,several times, that these things *will *have happened is erroneous. To then suggest that you were only suggesting that they might have, is disingenuous, imo


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## Birker2020 (1 February 2022)

Pearlsasinger said:



			As explained by a temporary minute taker

Click to expand...

Wow.  What a snob.  I'm trying my best. Talking about looking down on soneone.
But I'm not really fit to lick your boots am I Miss High & Mighty? 

Love to know why you think your so right and your speculation is more relevant than anyone elses on this forum.


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## Birker2020 (1 February 2022)

YorksG said:



			She was not "terminated " her employment terminated, there is*Nothing* to say who by.  There is no evidence of any safeguarding meeting, or of any "transfer" of risk. That you have repeated,several times, that these things *will *have happened is erroneous. To then suggest that you were only suggesting that they might have, is disingenuous, imo
		
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Thank you.


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## conniegirl (1 February 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			Wow.  What a snob.  I'm trying my best. Talking about looking down on soneone.
But I'm not really fit to lick your boots am I Miss High & Mighty?

Love to know why you think your so right and your speculation is more relevant than anyone elses on this forum.
		
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No, you are commenting from a position where you have a little knowledge, gained second hand. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Other posters who were fully trained on the processes and have been fully active participants for the full processes from start to finish have commented that you are mistaken but you with your note taking gained knowledge have decided you know better.


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## I'm Dun (1 February 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			Wow.  What a snob.  I'm trying my best. Talking about looking down on soneone.
But I'm not really fit to lick your boots am I Miss High & Mighty?

Love to know why you think your so right and your speculation is more relevant than anyone elses on this forum.
		
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And here we go again. Pretty sure that would fall under undignified behavior. 

Its really, really boring when the discussion gets rail roaded like this. Could you try and stop it or at least tone it down? People cant even put you on ignore as then nothing makes sense as the comments keep coming.


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## laura_nash (1 February 2022)

cauda equina said:



			Weren't the Colston 4 found not guilty of something that they definitely appeared to have done?
		
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Yes, it's well established in common law that the jury can find not guilty even if they clearly are guilty under the current laws if they feel in this particular case it's wrong to find them guilty.  It's why jury trials don't establish precedence.  

It used to be more common when laws were much further out of step with reasonableness, eg when the minimum sentence for a starving child stealing a loaf of bread was deportation the jury might find them not guilty even if it was clear they did steal it.


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## Pearlsasinger (1 February 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			Love to know why you think your so right and your speculation is more relevant than anyone elses on this forum.
		
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Because, as I have posted already on this thread, I have been trained to participate fully in disciplinary processes for teaching and support staff.

 Any dismissal for safeguarding reasons falls under the disciplinary process, which, as I have also said before,  takes considerably longer than the very short time between the video going viral and the statement being issued.


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## Amymay (1 February 2022)

Honestly you lot…… 🥱🥱🥱


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## DabDab (1 February 2022)

conniegirl said:



			Bringing a business into disrepute can be construed as gross misconduct
		
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Yes I know 🙄. I suspect that is what she was sacked for. Won't be affected by the trial though will it, which is what that post of mine there was talking about.


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## Mrs. Jingle (1 February 2022)

paddy555 said:



			If not guilty we could of course have another thread of several pages deciding if the jury had reached the correct verdict. 

Click to expand...

Not trying to stir up the hornet's nest that this thread has become, another possible subject of much heated discussion on here, *IF *the teacher's job was terminated by the school and not by herself, if found not guilty on RSPCA charge, would she then have a case for wrongful dismissal against the school that sacked her (*IF* the school did sack her - or terminate whatever word you want to use)?

Just curious if some of you knowledgeable school discipline/union bods can clarify how that could possibly pan out?


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## Fred66 (1 February 2022)

Sandstone1 said:



			It is indeed.    The only way things will change is to bring things like this to court.  While some will think its a over reaction times change and people need to know that losing your temper with a animal is never right.  I am not a fan of the Rspca and do agree that there are other serious cases of cruelty that do not get to court.   would people have felt the same if it was a dog she kicked and slapped?
		
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Yes.

If an investigation showed this was repeated behavior causing injury to the animal and there was an ongoing risk then obviously the answer would be no.

However if there was no other sign of neglect or damage then I would not expect a court case to ensue.

People tend to attach human behavior to animals and it rarely works. Pack animals establish a hierarchy through submission/dominance behavior, in these situations humans need to ensure they are the Alpha otherwise the animal may well try to dominate them and this can be extremely dangerous. Obviously this dominance from the human should not cause injury but should be sufficiently firm to ensure the pecking order is established.


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## paddy555 (1 February 2022)

Sandstone1 said:



			It is indeed.    The only way things will change is to bring things like this to court.  While some will think its a over reaction times change and people need to know that losing your temper with a animal is never right.  I am not a fan of the Rspca and do agree that there are other serious cases of cruelty that do not get to court.   would people have felt the same if it was a dog she kicked and slapped?
		
Click to expand...

that is presuming she is found guilty. What if she is found not guilty. I think that must be a credible alternative. I doubt her legal team would be pressing on with this if they thought it was a foregone conclusion. If she is not guilty then to the public it may suggest that sort of behaviour is acceptable and no change is needed. 
If they lose it is not going to do the RSPCA any favours. I am not sure how she is going to get a fair trail after the press intrusion so far.


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## Pearlsasinger (1 February 2022)

Mrs Jingle said:



			Not trying to stir up the hornet's nest that this thread has become, another possible subject of much heated discussion on here, *IF *the teacher's job was terminated by the school and not by herself, if found not guilty on RSPCA charge, would she then have a case for wrongful dismissal against the school that sacked her (*IF* the school did sack her - or terminate whatever word you want to use)?

Just curious if some of you knowledgeable school discipline/union bods can clarify how that could possibly pan out?
		
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The short answer is that it would depend on the wording of the dismissal notice.  However I doubt that it would mention cruelty to animals,  so probably not directly.  If it says by reason of bringing the school into disrepute, she might have a case if found Not Guilty because it wasn't her actions that caused the problem.  

She would need to take legal advice, which I'm sure that her union, if she is a member, as most teachers are, would be happy to provide.

 But it seems highly unlikely to me, because of the timescales, that she was sacked.


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## Sandstone1 (1 February 2022)

Fred66 said:



			Yes.

If an investigation showed this was repeated behavior causing injury to the animal and there was an ongoing risk then obviously the answer would be no.

However if there was no other sign of neglect or damage then I would not expect a court case to ensue.

People tend to attach human behavior to animals and it rarely works. Pack animals establish a hierarchy through submission/dominance behavior, in these situations humans need to ensure they are the Alpha otherwise the animal may well try to dominate them and this can be extremely dangerous. Obviously this dominance from the human should not cause injury but should be sufficiently firm to ensure the pecking order is established.
		
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I am afraid the dominance theory has been disproved and is now very out dated.  Try looking up positive reinforcement and learning theory.
Humans do not need to be the "Alpha"
This sort of attitude just shows how much things need to change.


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## DabDab (1 February 2022)

Mrs Jingle said:



			Not trying to stir up the hornet's nest that this thread has become, another possible subject of much heated discussion on here, *IF *the teacher's job was terminated by the school and not by herself, if found not guilty on RSPCA charge, would she then have a case for wrongful dismissal against the school that sacked her (*IF* the school did sack her - or terminate whatever word you want to use)?

Just curious if some of you knowledgeable school discipline/union bods can clarify how that could possibly pan out?
		
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Tried to answer this question when Paddy asked it but conniegirl decided to quote an example of gross misconduct at me, so obviously I didn't do a very good job....will try again...

Assuming she was fired for gross misconduct, then it is unlikely that the verdict would have any bearing on the dismissal. They are not related or interconnected in any way really, unless the gross misconduct that the disciplinary investigation found her guilty of is 'criminal acts'. But that seems very unlikely to be the case here.

No idea on safeguarding if it was those grounds that she was dismissed on. But I would think it unlikely that they would reverse a decision like that unless the video was found to be faked or something. I also think it is unlikely that she was dismissed on safeguarding grounds


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## Sandstone1 (1 February 2022)

paddy555 said:



			that is presuming she is found guilty. What if she is found not guilty. I think that must be a credible alternative. I doubt her legal team would be pressing on with this if they thought it was a foregone conclusion. If she is not guilty then to the public it may suggest that sort of behaviour is acceptable and no change is needed.
If they lose it is not going to do the RSPCA any favours. I am not sure how she is going to get a fair trail after the press intrusion so far.
		
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Time will tell.  I do hope shes found guilty as its time people thought a bit more about how they treat animals.


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## skinnydipper (1 February 2022)

Fred66 said:



			People tend to attach human behavior to animals and it rarely works. Pack animals establish a hierarchy through submission/dominance behavior, in these situations humans need to ensure they are the Alpha otherwise the animal may well try to dominate them and this can be extremely dangerous. Obviously this dominance from the human should not cause injury but should be sufficiently firm to ensure the pecking order is established.
		
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Dominance theory, in the dog world at least, has long since been debunked.

This might interest you:  https://equitationscience.com/equit...ng, attempts to,the individual by moving away.


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## Mrs. Jingle (1 February 2022)

Thank you DabDab and Pearlsasinger, much clearer picture now.


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## skinnydipper (1 February 2022)

Fred66 said:



			People tend to attach human behavior to animals and it rarely works. Pack animals establish a hierarchy through submission/dominance behavior, in these situations humans need to ensure they are the Alpha otherwise the animal may well try to dominate them and this can be extremely dangerous. Obviously this dominance from the human should not cause injury but should be sufficiently firm to ensure the pecking order is established.
		
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You are not seriously suggesting she was training the poor pony when she kicked and punched it?


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## Sandstone1 (1 February 2022)

skinnydipper said:



			You are not seriously suggesting she was training this poor pony when she kicked and punched it?
		
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Poor pony didnt even do anything wrong.  If thats whats classed as training I really do despair.


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## Birker2020 (1 February 2022)

I'm Dun said:



			And here we go again. Pretty sure that would fall under undignified behavior.

Its really, really boring when the discussion gets rail roaded like this. Could you try and stop it or at least tone it down? People cant even put you on ignore as then nothing makes sense as the comments keep coming.
		
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So you think its okay for me to get insulted when my viewpoint differs do you? You think its okay to hurl abuse at me


I'm Dun said:



			And here we go again. Pretty sure that would fall under undignified behavior.

Its really, really boring when the discussion gets rail roaded like this. Could you try and stop it or at least tone it down? People cant even put you on ignore as then nothing makes sense as the comments keep coming.
		
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I will not be patronised and i will not be insulted because my viewpoint is different. And I'm sorry if you don't like it but i do not insult people the way PAS insults me.


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## Birker2020 (1 February 2022)

conniegirl said:



			No, you are commenting from a position where you have a little knowledge, gained second hand. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Other posters who were fully trained on the processes and have been fully active participants for the full processes from start to finish have commented that you are mistaken but you with your note taking gained knowledge have decided you know better.
		
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My viewpoint is no less than yours and i am no less worthy than you.


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## Tiddlypom (1 February 2022)

I'm not at all sure that the wider general public (from whom the jury will be selected) regard the RSPCA with as much disdain as many HHOers seem to think that they do.

I think that, on the whole, the RSPCA is fondly regarded as a force for the good and that they do what it says on the tin.

I'm remembering that having heard some details of a case before trial doesn't preclude you from serving as a juror on that trial, but you must declare if you know any of the defendants or witnesses personally. If you do know anyone, you are stood down from that case.


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## Pearlsasinger (1 February 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			but i do not insult people the way PAS insults me.
		
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Taking a leaf out of your book - where have I insulted you?


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## honetpot (1 February 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			My viewpoint is no less than yours and i am no less worthy than you.
		
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 It's your view, it doesn't mean you are correct.


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## ycbm (1 February 2022)

I just hope you and PAS who think someone like this has done nothing wrong aren't teachers.
		
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NOBODY on this thread has said that she has done nothing wrong,  and you know full well that PaS has had a long career as a teacher and then senior advisor in education.  

Please stop trying to paint yourself as a victim while you give completely incorrect information, which then needs correcting, and follow up by misrepresenting what other people have written.  
.


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## TheLoneWanderer (1 February 2022)

Pearlsasinger You do not me to stand by everything you have said but I do anyway. I am a long time lurker and have the highest respect for you. Well done for putting Birker2020 in her place. Nothing I have ever seen of hers has been decent and she had a obnoxiously high opinion of herself.


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## blitznbobs (1 February 2022)

TheLoneWanderer said:



			Pearlsasinger You do not me to stand by everything you have said but I do anyway. I am a long time lurker and have the highest respect for you. Well done for putting Birker2020 in her place. Nothing I have ever seen of hers has been decent and she had a obnoxiously high opinion of herself.
		
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Well she probably doesn’t live in London so is probably well beneath the londoner in our midst.


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## AFishOutOfWater (1 February 2022)

TheLoneWanderer said:



			Pearlsasinger You do not me to stand by everything you have said but I do anyway. I am a long time lurker and have the highest respect for you. Well done for putting Birker2020 in her place. Nothing I have ever seen of hers has been decent and she had a obnoxiously high opinion of herself.
		
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simp or what!? 🤮


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## Tiddlypom (1 February 2022)

DR alert...


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## ycbm (1 February 2022)

TheLoneWanderer said:



			Pearlsasinger You do not me to stand by everything you have said but I do anyway. I am a long time lurker and have the highest respect for you. Well done for putting Birker2020 in her place. Nothing I have ever seen of hers has been decent and she had a obnoxiously high opinion of herself.
		
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I find this a very odd post by a forum member who only joined 2 days ago, even if you are a long term lurker.  

Birker often contributes good stuff to the forum.  She does not have a high opinion of herself at all,  probably quite the reverse as her overreaction and defensiveness to implied or actual criticism frequently gets her into hot water on the forum.  

She's a good person at heart.  You,  after this post and your comments about York and Yorkshire earlier today,  I'm not yet sure about.  

I suspect that TP's Dunroamin alert might be spot on.  
.


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## AFishOutOfWater (1 February 2022)

Tiddlypom said:



			DR alert...
		
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oh for god's sake. I never work out it's her until someone else points it out.


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## AdorableAlice (1 February 2022)

What a pity that many making comments on this thread have no understanding of the words assumption, hysteria and proportionality.

I sincerely hope those that may sit on a jury for any purpose have full understanding of the words I mention above.


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## paddy555 (1 February 2022)

blitznbobs said:



			Well she probably doesn’t live in London so is probably well beneath the londoner in our midst.
		
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 true. Let's just hope Birker doesn't live in the dreaded Yorkshire.


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## blitznbobs (1 February 2022)

paddy555 said:



			true. Let's just hope Birker doesn't live in the dreaded Yorkshire. 

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Yorkshire, hell, plague infested cesspool - difficult to tell the difference really.


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## Fred66 (1 February 2022)

skinnydipper said:



			You are not seriously suggesting she was training the poor pony when she kicked and punched it?
		
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No I wasn’t.

However I don’t believe that the video alone is sufficient to prove animal cruelty.


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## Upthecreek (1 February 2022)

Fred66 said:



			No I wasn’t.

However I don’t believe that the video alone is sufficient to prove animal cruelty.
		
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Would you say the same about someone hitting and kicking a child?


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## Berpisc (1 February 2022)

Snail said:



			oh for god's sake. I never work out it's her until someone else points it out.
		
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Me neither Snail


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## Shilasdair (1 February 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			My viewpoint is no less than yours and i am no less worthy than you.
		
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Actually, I know that there is a popular idea that all views are equally valid.

But they're not.   Some people have expertise which others lack.

You'd be unlikely (and unwise) to believe me when I offer medical advice for example (I am not a doctor) but quite likely and wise to believe my cousins (they are).


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## OldNag (1 February 2022)

Snail said:



			oh for god's sake. I never work out it's her until someone else points it out.
		
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Yep... me neither! Quick bit of detective work and I'd agree. Why on earth they keep coming back is beyond me though.


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## DabDab (1 February 2022)

Tiddlypom said:



			I'm not at all sure that the wider general public (from whom the jury will be selected) regard the RSPCA with as much disdain as many HHOers seem to think that they do.

I think that, on the whole, the RSPCA is fondly regarded as a force for the good and that they do what it says on the tin.

I'm remembering that having heard some details of a case before trial doesn't preclude you from serving as a juror on that trial, but you must declare if you know any of the defendants or witnesses personally. If you do know anyone, you are stood down from that case.
		
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Yeah, I think she would have stood better chance of being let off by a magistrate tbh. I was surprised when I read she was going for jury trial. I guess it must be a combination of being out of touch (not a stretch given her response to all this so far), and having little left to lose. 🤷

Wish she would just plead guilty, take her punishment and move on tbh. Can't see this jury trial shenanigans doing her or the wider equestrian community any favours.


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## Fred66 (1 February 2022)

Upthecreek said:



			Would you say the same about someone hitting and kicking a child?
		
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Extreme case of whataboutery!!!

Not worth an answer


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## Upthecreek (1 February 2022)

Fred66 said:



			Extreme case of whataboutery!!!

Not worth an answer
		
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You said “I don’t believe that the video alone is sufficient to prove animal cruelty”. So if the same video showed the same woman hitting and kicking a child instead of a horse would it be sufficient to prove child cruelty?


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## conniegirl (1 February 2022)

Upthecreek said:



			You said “I don’t believe that the video alone is sufficient to prove animal cruelty”. So if the same video showed the same woman hitting and kicking a child instead of a horse would it be sufficient to prove child cruelty?
		
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Unfortunately as in a few cases recently, a terrified, confused,starved, bruised, beaten child begging for someone to love them is not enough for a social worker to deem it child abuse. Seems to take a death before they fo anything


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## RaposadeGengibre (1 February 2022)

Upthecreek said:



			You said “I don’t believe that the video alone is sufficient to prove animal cruelty”. So if the same video showed the same woman hitting and kicking a child instead of a horse would it be sufficient to prove child cruelty?
		
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If said child is a 500kg iron shoed beast?... well...probably not, isn't it?


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## Pearlsasinger (1 February 2022)

RaposadeGengibre said:



			If said child is a 500kg iron shoed beast?... well...probably not, isn't it?
		
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And if the incident was a one off.


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## Sandstone1 (1 February 2022)

Pearlsasinger said:



			And if the incident was a one off.
		
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We dont know it was a one off do we?


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## YorksG (1 February 2022)

Sandstone1 said:



			We dont know it was a one off do we?
		
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And we don't know that it wasn't.


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## Sandstone1 (2 February 2022)

The fact that people still think we need to be "Alpha" over animals just shows that it really is time that people updated their approach to how we treat animals.   Its very sad.


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## planete (2 February 2022)

This is ridiculous.  Laying about any living thing is cruel especially if it has done nothing to deserve it.  It does not matter what size it is or how old it is.


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## minesadouble (2 February 2022)

Sandstone1 said:



			The fact that people still think we need to be "Alpha" over animals just shows that it really is time that people updated their approach to how we treat animals.   Its very sad.
		
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For safety reasons alone we do need to be "Alpha" over a 500kg animal I'm afraid!


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## ycbm (2 February 2022)

Not worth it, deleted.


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## Errin Paddywack (2 February 2022)

Sandstone1 said:



			We dont know it was a one off do we?
		
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I don't think it was a regular occurrence based on how the pony reacted.  It wasn't obviously scared, just surprised, at least that was the impression I got.  If it had been used to being beaten up I would have expected it to be panicky, not shrug its shoulders and load into the trailer.


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## Upthecreek (2 February 2022)

conniegirl said:



			Unfortunately as in a few cases recently, a terrified, confused,starved, bruised, beaten child begging for someone to love them is not enough for a social worker to deem it child abuse. Seems to take a death before they fo anything
		
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I completely agree, it’s disgraceful. But the question I asked is because I am trying to understand how people on this thread would feel if the person in that video did exactly the same to a child as she did to the horse. I’m not talking about a child or a horse being starved, bruised and beaten. Fred66 said the video alone would not be sufficient to prove animal cruelty. Pearlsasinger said the same in relation to a child if the incident was a one off. 

I have never stood in front of my children, or my horses or my dogs and hit them on the face and kicked them in the chest. I’m genuinely interested to hear opinions on this because I can’t understand how I am seeing it so differently to some. And I’m not saying they should lock this woman up and throw away the key, but perhaps the consequences she has faced will make her think twice before treating anything in her care like that again.


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## minesadouble (2 February 2022)

Upthecreek said:



			I completely agree, it’s disgraceful. But the question I asked is because I am trying to understand how people on this thread would feel if the person in that video did exactly the same to a child as she did to the horse. I’m not talking about a child or a horse being starved, bruised and beaten. Fred66 said the video alone would not be sufficient to prove animal cruelty. Pearlsasinger said the same in relation to a child if the incident was a one off.

I have never stood in front of my children, or my horses or my dogs and hit them on the face and kicked them in the chest. I’m genuinely interested to hear opinions on this because I can’t understand how I am seeing it so differently to some. And I’m not saying they should lock this woman up and throw away the key, but perhaps the consequences she has faced will make her think twice before treating anything in her care like that again.
		
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As a starting point if I 'patted' one of my children the same way I pat my horses affectionately they would find it painful and would probably be marked. If I scratched my daughter's leg in exactly the same manner I scratch my horses withers, she would be shouting with pain whilst my horse would be curling up in pleasure!! It's all relative and seems pretty obvious to me.


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## ycbm (2 February 2022)

Upthecreek said:



			I am trying to understand how people on this thread would feel if the person in that video did exactly the same to a child as she did to the horse.
		
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It's a bit of a daft question,  though,  isn't it? 

What are you expecting anyone to answer? 

"Oh I think it's fine to hit and kick children". ??

Nobody has said it's fine to do what she did to that pony,  so why would they say anything different about a child? 
.


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## Pearlsasinger (2 February 2022)

I can pretty much assure you that a single instance of an adult hitting /kicking a child within the family would be unlikely to result in any kind of legal action.  It could result in support being offered by Social Services, as it would be felt that the adult was for some reason under extreme stress at the time. I have reported injuries to children which have merely resulted in a  visit by SS with no further action whatsoever.
If the actions were repeated systematically over time, there might be further intervention.

The pony in the video appeared to be uninjured and not overly bothered. A not very big adult would struggle to cause actual physical harm to a pony with a few slaps and kicks, which as I have said before, does not mean that I think she behaved appropriately.


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## Upthecreek (2 February 2022)

minesadouble said:



			As a starting point if I 'patted' one of my children the same way I pat my horses affectionately they would find it painful and would probably be marked. If I scratched my daughter's leg in exactly the same manner I scratch my horses withers, she would be shouting with pain whilst my horse would be curling up in pleasure!! It's all relative and seems pretty obvious to me.
		
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But it’s not relative or obvious in the context of what happened on the video. To use your analogy I walk my dogs on leads and feed them dog food. I don’t do the same to my kids. Of course I understand that we treat different beings in different ways, but hitting and kicking is violent behaviour, regardless of who is on the receiving end.

We all seem to agree that her behaviour was unacceptable, but it certainly seems more acceptable/excusable/less serious to some than others. It will certainly be interesting to hear the outcome of the trial.


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## Birker2020 (2 February 2022)

TheLoneWanderer said:



			Pearlsasinger You do not me to stand by everything you have said but I do anyway. I am a long time lurker and have the highest respect for you. Well done for putting Birker2020 in her place. Nothing I have ever seen of hers has been decent and she had a obnoxiously high opinion of herself.
		
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## Berpisc (2 February 2022)

One of the more unpleasant things I witnessed was a mother speaking to her very small (about 2 or 3 years old) calling him a bloody liar. The viciousness of her tone...no hitting or punching needed 🥺


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## Sandstone1 (2 February 2022)

minesadouble said:



			For safety reasons alone we do need to be "Alpha" over a 500kg animal I'm afraid!
		
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Not true.


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## planete (2 February 2022)

minesadouble said:



			For safety reasons alone we do need to be "Alpha" over a 500kg animal I'm afraid!
		
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We need to have trained him to trust us enough to want to do what we ask of him. At 5' and under 8 stone I have never been under the illusion I was going to get anywhere by bossing around the horses or dogs I trained.  If you call being firm but fair being alpha though, then yes it is very necessary.  Terminology can trip us up.


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## Sandstone1 (2 February 2022)

Being the "Alpha"  is a term that used to be used in dog training.    However, the dominance theory has been disproved some time ago.  It came from wolf packs.   Please look it up before using it.


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## paddy555 (2 February 2022)

Sandstone1 said:



			Being the "Alpha"  is a term that used to be used in dog training.    However, the dominance theory has been disproved some time ago.  It came from wolf packs.   Please look it up before using it.
		
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if you replace "alpha" with leader will that make you happier. Leaders and followers. Not sure where wolves and dogs come from in relation to horses.


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## IrishMilo (2 February 2022)

Sandstone1 said:



			I am afraid the dominance theory has been disproved and is now very out dated.  Try looking up positive reinforcement and learning theory.
Humans do not need to be the "Alpha"
This sort of attitude just shows how much things need to change.
		
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Genuine question - how would you see fit to deal with a horse who, for example, barged through you coming out the stable? Or you were trying to groom and they kept swinging their arse into you and knocking you all over the shop?

Horses understand black and white - which isn't violence. But short, sharp corrections in the heat of their wrongdoing. It's the safest, easiest way to teach them for them AND us.


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## Birker2020 (2 February 2022)

IrishMilo said:



			Genuine question - how would you see fit to deal with a horse who, for example, barged through you coming out the stable? Or you were trying to groom and they kept swinging their arse into you and knocking you all over the shop?

Horses understand black and white - which isn't violence. But short, sharp corrections in the heat of their wrongdoing. It's the safest, easiest way to teach them for them AND us.
		
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I have tried all sorts of 'corrections' during the time I've had Lari.  He isn't a biter per se but likes to nibble on clothes and other items as a kind of coping mechanism (in my mind).   He also likes to carry the lunge line around in his mouth and mouths things quite a lot, whatever he can get his 'hooves on' he will stuff into his mouth, like an overgrown Labrador (which is how he was described in the advert). 

Hand on heart the only consistent thing that I have found that works after the 100th time of smacking his nose or telling him in a gruff voice "NO!" is when he goes to bite/chew something and then decides not to.  You can see him working out the pros and cons in his mind and he goes to mouth something or bite something/someone and then decides against it.

IF I see him stop in his tracks as he's about to mouth my coat pocket and suck mints through the lining he will get rewarded with a scratch/pat/mint. I have found that this is 100% more effective than anything else.

This past fortnight I have rarely had him try to chew/bite anything which is progress. He is very food orientated so this technique has worked quite well with him. But I am quick to recognise they are all different.


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## smolmaus (2 February 2022)

IrishMilo said:



			Genuine question - how would you see fit to deal with a horse who, for example, barged through you coming out the stable? Or you were trying to groom and they kept swinging their arse into you and knocking you all over the shop?

Horses understand black and white - which isn't violence. But short, sharp corrections in the heat of their wrongdoing. It's the safest, easiest way to teach them for them AND us.
		
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A correction which would typically be moving them out of your space (however you do that) isn't at all related to what is typically meant by "Alpha"/ dominance theory. What you're describing is classic positive punishment. 

The "Alpha" theory is based on constant physical competition. Every interaction has to be "won" so you retain your "top dog" position, which might get you a submissive and "obedient" dog if you can physically dominate them often enough but you will lose with any 500kg horse who genuinely sees you as competition. It's nonsense for dogs but completely idiotic to use with horses.


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## Pearlsasinger (2 February 2022)

I sometimes wonder how often people just stand and watch their own horses interacting in the field. I know it's easier when you have your own herd at home, as we do, but I notice that *at times* they are very physical with each other, to the point that the last time we had 4 horses, they had to be separated into 2 pairs, or a couple of them were in real danger of causing each other a serious injury, even without shoes.  No unarmed human could possibly cause a 500kg horse anything like that kind of injury.

Whatever the term you use, the human has to be the decisionmaker in the relationship between horse and human, *for safety's sake*.


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## TPO (2 February 2022)

But she wasn't disciplining it or training it or any of that stuff. She was attacking it with her fists and feet for reasons known only to herself


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## smolmaus (2 February 2022)

Pearlsasinger said:



			I sometimes wonder how often people just stand and watch their own horses interacting in the field. I know it's easier when you have your own herd at home, as we do, but I notice that *at times* they are very physical with each other, to the point that the last time we had 4 horses, they had to be separated into 2 pairs, or a couple of them were in real danger of causing each other a serious injury, even without shoes.  No unarmed human could possibly cause a 500kg horse anything like that kind of injury.

Whatever the term you use, the human has to be the decisionmaker in the relationship between horse and human, *for safety's sake*.
		
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The difference for me here is that the horses are very capable of communicating with eachother, even when they are being aggressive. They both know what is going on and to a certain extent both of them will have escalated to that point knowing what the outcome will be.

When a human whacks a horse in the gob the horse doesn't necessarily know why, we can't really tell them why, they have to figure it out for themselves. A flick in the nose for biting might be clear enough and we have had several examples in this thread and the previous of a good whack being necessary in the heat of the moment to prevent injury, but in a lot of cases (in this case in particular) the whack in the gob accomplishes nothing other than making the horse confused. A horse regularly being whacked and not knowing why is going to cause some sort of psychological "injury" that a scrap between fieldmates isn't going to create.


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## honetpot (2 February 2022)

I think horse, dominance, which a poor description, communication is subtle, it's based on knowledge and trust, but their whole body communicates, from a rested leg to a flicked ear, and often we are communicating like someone shouting very loudly in a foreign language, expecting someone else who does not speak that language to understand.
The horse vocabulary does include biting and kicking, while ours hopefully does not, but most of the time, where they stand, how they stand and facial expressions work day to day, but we ask them to do things, like stand in a moving box, in the dark and accept it, without sometimes clear where the benefit is.  If you have children you often see a pony 'trying it on', it's not being naughty, but really it would rather wander off and eat grass, than be with a small person, it does not really value that much. in any terms it sees a valuable, as worth paying attention to. If the small person is backed by an adult presence, and will not run off crying, it will probably comply.
  We had a pony that used to bully children. You could stand at his head the child one side, the adult the other side, if the child held the rope, he would headbutt them and push them over, you could pass the rope to the adult and he would not move. You can not make any horse doing anything by violence, all you do is make it more advantageous to do as asked, and negative behaviour not rewarded. The same pony would drag a child away from the ramp when loading, he would load for and adult, putting another pony in first and he would drag the child up the ramp, the advantage of being with his friend outweighed the child asking him something he wouldn't normally want to do.
  Horses do a lot worse to each other than the odd kick, there is usually an escalation of events, even if we do not see it before it happens, and in horse terms is makes absolute sense. Horses are a lot more aware of our body language than we are, and the horse being kicked by the women was probably well aware it was in trouble long before she got anywhere near it, and if it was really frightened, or literally the grass was greener, it would have been off like the clappers. She lost her temper, which is human, the horse reacted in a horse way, it thought it better go in the box.


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## Sandstone1 (2 February 2022)

paddy555 said:



			if you replace "alpha" with leader will that make you happier. Leaders and followers. Not sure where wolves and dogs come from in relation to horses.
		
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Because dominance theory  comes from wolf packs.  The top dog is called the Alpha.  Its been completely disproved with dogs as basically dogs are not wolves and they also know we are not dogs. So to try and treat them as other dogs treat them does not make sense.
Its pretty much the same for horses in my opinion.  We are not horses and should not try to use force to control them.  Obviously a 8 stone person can not control a 500kg horse by force but they can by fear....   Try reading about the dominance theory.  It quite complicated.
Whatever, hitting and kicking a pony out of temper is wrong.  Thats the bottom line here.


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## Pearlsasinger (2 February 2022)

It surprises me that some posters think it is acceptable/effective to hit a horse on the nose as retribution for biting and yet think that the woman in the video should have lost her livelihood and be subject to a court case for hitting her pony on the head.  That seems like 'it's fine for me to do it but not for you'. Double standards or what?

The best way to stop a horse biting you is to not put it in a position where it can do that, inthe first place.  You (one) need to be much more aware of the horse's body language.


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## paddy555 (2 February 2022)

smolmaus said:



			A correction which would typically be moving them out of your space (however you do that) isn't at all related to what is typically meant by "Alpha"/ dominance theory. What you're describing is classic positive punishment.

The "Alpha" theory is based on constant physical competition. Every interaction has to be "won" so you retain your "top dog" position, which might get you a submissive and "obedient" dog if you can physically dominate them often enough but you will lose with any 500kg horse who genuinely sees you as competition. It's nonsense for dogs but completely idiotic to use with horses.
		
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dominance (I looked it up) means having power and influence over others. Nothing about aggressive or abusive. That is what we have over the horse. 

I am struggling with your 2nd para. Every interaction has to be won to retain your top dog position. Where else is the human's position other than the leader (dominant if you want to call it that) in the herd of 2 ie horse and owner. Where do you see the position of the horse and the human in relation to each other?


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## paddy555 (2 February 2022)

Sandstone1 said:



			Because dominance theory  comes from wolf packs.  The top dog is called the Alpha.  Its been completely disproved with dogs as basically dogs are not wolves and they also know we are not dogs. So to try and treat them as other dogs treat them does not make sense.
Its pretty much the same for horses in my opinion.  We are not horses and should not try to use force to control them.  Obviously a 8 stone person can not control a 500kg horse by force but they can by fear....   Try reading about the dominance theory.  It quite complicated.
Whatever, hitting and kicking a pony out of temper is wrong.  Thats the bottom line here.
		
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please could we stick to horses. I know very little about dogs or even wolves but from what little I do know I cannot see how the 2 relate. 
I have read about the dominance theory. I am just trying to apply it to horses IRL. 

Everyone agrees kicking the pony out of temper was wrong. I cannot see what that has to do with dominance or any other theory. As I saw it she simply lost her temper.


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## Sandstone1 (2 February 2022)

paddy555 said:



			dominance (I looked it up) means having power and influence over others. Nothing about aggressive or abusive. That is what we have over the horse.

I am struggling with your 2nd para. Every interaction has to be won to retain your top dog position. Where else is the human's position other than the leader (dominant if you want to call it that) in the herd of 2 ie horse and owner. Where do you see the position of the horse and the human in relation to each other?[/QUOTE
https://www.whole-dog-journal.com/behavior/debunking-the-alpha-dog-theory/
I know we are talking about Horses not dogs but as someone keeps going on about being The Alpha it is relevant I think.
		
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## Pearlsasinger (2 February 2022)

Have you never heard of 'the Alpha mare'?   Alpha is the 1st letter of the Greek alphabet, nothing at all to do with dogs!


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## honetpot (2 February 2022)

paddy555 said:



			dominance (I looked it up) means having power and influence over others. Nothing about aggressive or abusive. That is what we have over the horse.

I am struggling with your 2nd para. Every interaction has to be won to retain your top dog position. Where else is the human's position other than the leader (dominant if you want to call it that) in the herd of 2 ie horse and owner. Where do you see the position of the horse and the human in relation to each other?
		
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 I am not a behaviourist, but a wolf  is a predator and the horse is a herd prey animal. The wolf pack works as a team to kill prey and share it in a dominance order, the equine herd is usually led and educated by older usually female members of the herd, and 'teaches' though showing what is safe, the fighting is usually done by males over breeding mares. Where there is a lot of food and water, there is very rarely any need for a mare to aggressive, she is usually dominant because her mother was dominant in the herd. Domesticated horses mainly squabble over food, if there is enough, it's very low level.
  I have learned over the years you are usually teaching the horse that it is more advantageous to comply, because then they can get back to the serious business of eating, or their mates back in the field. They often learn more by being with a quiet, experienced older animal than any human, because we do not really have a full understanding of their communication system.


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## paddy555 (2 February 2022)

dominance (I looked it up) means having power and influence over others. Nothing about aggressive or abusive. That is what we have over the horse.

I am struggling with your 2nd para. Every interaction has to be won to retain your top dog position. Where else is the human's position other than the leader (dominant if you want to call it that) in the herd of 2 ie horse and owner. Where do you see the position of the horse and the human in relation to each other?[/QUOTE
https://www.whole-dog-journal.com/behavior/debunking-the-alpha-dog-theory/
I know we are talking about Horses not dogs but as someone keeps going on about being The Alpha it is relevant I think.

sorry quotes didn't work. 

I read the link but I cannot see the link between wolf and horse behaviour. 
The link talks about the alpha male and female keeping the pack of wolves in  order and that has now been debunked (as I understand it) Do you not think there is an alpha/leader in a herd of horses? A dominant equine? remember dominant doesn't mean abusive or aggressive it simply means having power and influence over others.


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## Sandstone1 (2 February 2022)

paddy555 said:



			dominance (I looked it up) means having power and influence over others. Nothing about aggressive or abusive. That is what we have over the horse.

I am struggling with your 2nd para. Every interaction has to be won to retain your top dog position. Where else is the human's position other than the leader (dominant if you want to call it that) in the herd of 2 ie horse and owner. Where do you see the position of the horse and the human in relation to each other?[/QUOTE
https://www.whole-dog-journal.com/behavior/debunking-the-alpha-dog-theory/
I know we are talking about Horses not dogs but as someone keeps going on about being The Alpha it is relevant I think.

sorry quotes didn't work.

I read the link but I cannot see the link between wolf and horse behaviour.
The link talks about the alpha male and female keeping the pack of wolves in  order and that has now been debunked (as I understand it) Do you not think there is an alpha/leader in a herd of horses? A dominant equine? remember dominant doesn't mean abusive or aggressive it simply means having power and influence over others.
		
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Yes there is certainly a herd leader in wild horses but we are not horses.  Thats the whole point!  I am fully aware what the word dominance means thank you.
Horses should trust us and punching and kicking them does not obtain trust.


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## honetpot (2 February 2022)

Sandstone1 said:



			Yes there is certainly a herd leader in wild horses but we are not horses.  Thats the whole point!  I am fully aware what the word dominance means thank you.
Horses should trust us and punching and kicking them does not obtain trust.
		
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 I think punching and kicking them doesn't obtain trust, but it doesn't mean it's the same to us as it does to them. A horse before it kicks will often threaten to kick, which could just be shifting its quarters, and putting back its ears. It's a whole body warning. A human walking quickly and having a stiff posture, or even coming up out of their sight line, to them could be seen as more aggressive, or frightening than a physical blow. They assess those movements as a potential threat, even if the human does not mean any harm.


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## Upthecreek (2 February 2022)

I don’t think you can make comparisons between what she did in the video and what any of us would do to protect ourselves from a horse barging, kicking or biting. It just isn’t relevant to what happened.

Effective discipline is about giving an immediate correction for unwanted behaviour that the recipient understands. It’s irrelevant in this case anyway because what that teacher did was lost her temper and lashed out. It was not discipline and that horse learnt absolutely nothing.


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## paddy555 (2 February 2022)

Sandstone1 said:



			Yes there is certainly a herd leader in wild horses but we are not horses.  Thats the whole point!  I am fully aware what the word dominance means thank you.
Horses should trust us and punching and kicking them does not obtain trust.
		
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no we are not horses but we have to have some position in the herd of human and horse, some relationship with them.
It is not an equal partnership. We need to be the leader to keep ourselves and the horse safe.


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## Sandstone1 (2 February 2022)

paddy555 said:



			no we are not horses but we have to have some position in the herd of human and horse, some relationship with them.
It is not an equal partnership. We need to be the leader to keep ourselves and the horse safe.
		
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Yes and we should not abuse that relationship by punching and kicking for no apparent reason other than we have lost our temper or are having a bad day.


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## DabDab (2 February 2022)

Upthecreek said:



			I don’t think you can make comparisons between what she did in the video and what any of us would do to protect ourselves from a horse barging, kicking or biting. It just isn’t relevant to what happened.

Effective discipline is about giving an immediate correction for unwanted behaviour that the recipient understands. It’s irrelevant in this case anyway because what that teacher did was lost her temper and lashed out. It was not discipline and that horse learnt absolutely nothing.
		
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It's an interesting discussion in the context of how do we define abuse though. I know to a certain extent we know it when we see it, but that is pretty hard to define legally. We struggle enough to define abuse within our own species let alone abuse of another species.

It's so tricky and nuanced, even just considering my own horses, a raised voice would upset my big horse much more than a punch - he is a very physical horse who communicates a lot through physical contact, both with humans and horses (he has been evicted out of a lot of fields because he is just too physical with the others). It's a tricky subject


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## DabDab (2 February 2022)

honetpot said:



			I think punching and kicking them doesn't obtain trust, but it doesn't mean it's the same to us as it does to them. A horse before it kicks will often threaten to kick, which could just be shifting its quarters, and putting back its ears. It's a whole body warning. A human walking quickly and having a stiff posture, or even coming up out of their sight line, to them could be seen as more aggressive, or frightening than a physical blow. They assess those movements as a potential threat, even if the human does not mean any harm.
		
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And often the horse that kicks is not actually the one in charge of a situation. A horse that has to go as far as kicking to assert itself in a situation is usually bottom of the pile. Like you say, all the 'threatening' signals are often seems to be much more unsettling for horses to deal with.


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## paddy555 (2 February 2022)

Sandstone1 said:



			Yes and we should not abuse that relationship by punching and kicking for no apparent reason other than we have lost our temper or are having a bad day.
		
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I don't think anyone disagrees that she shouldn't have lost her temper.


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## janietee_5 (2 February 2022)

I will probably get loads of hate for this, but here goes…..imagine you are being filmed by a load of balaclava clad sabs.   Worried and stressed about how your kid might feel about this and then the pony runs off when kid is trying to load it.  Instinct kicks in thinking about what might happen if said pony gets loose on road and sadly you discipline it in a way that you wouldn’t usually, but said balaclava clad sabs have un-nerved you and made you act out of character.  The rest is history and you regret forever.  Pony is not harmed physically or psychologically but your world falls in and you lose everything.  Maybe think about this before condemning her.  I don’t know her but have seen sabs in action. Not condoning her actions but they are pretty intimidating and scary.  Maybe if their faces weren’t covered they wouldn’t be so scary, but they apparently are allowed to remain anonymous…..


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## honetpot (2 February 2022)

What do we think about pulling manes? I have purchased at least three animals that have had their manes pulled to the point where any move towards their mane with a brush is met with resistance, one who was loose in a box threatened to kick me. I sold this pony as a three year old and bought it back as a sixteen year old, its gone from being what I  would class as normal, to being obsessed about food, at one point I know he was grossly overweight, and being able to fiddle with his mane, I do not pull manes, to a pony that objects strongly, and will eat the most disgusting straw. It's common to twitch ponies that resist, but surely if you are causing pain that is cruel, and trimming whiskers, is also causing sensory deprivation, which is a longer lasting calculated abuse in the name of fashion and tradition.


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## DabDab (2 February 2022)

honetpot said:



			What do we think about pulling manes? I have purchased at least three animals that have had their manes pulled to the point where any move towards their mane with a brush is met with resistance, one who was loose in a box threatened to kick me. I sold this pony as a three year old and bought it back as a sixteen year old, its gone from being what I  would class as normal, to being obsessed about food, at one point I know he was grossly overweight, and being able to fiddle with his mane, I do not pull manes, to a pony that objects strongly, and will eat the most disgusting straw. It's common to twitch ponies that resist, but surely if you are causing pain that is cruel, and trimming whiskers, is also causing sensory deprivation, which is a longer lasting abuse calculated abuse in the name of fashion and tradition.
		
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Well I have known the odd horse who did seem to enjoy it, but in general I think it is barbaric and I certainly wouldn't ever subject one of mine to it


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## Sandstone1 (2 February 2022)

honetpot said:



			What do we think about pulling manes? I have purchased at least three animals that have had their manes pulled to the point where any move towards their mane with a brush is met with resistance, one who was loose in a box threatened to kick me. I sold this pony as a three year old and bought it back as a sixteen year old, its gone from being what I  would class as normal, to being obsessed about food, at one point I know he was grossly overweight, and being able to fiddle with his mane, I do not pull manes, to a pony that objects strongly, and will eat the most disgusting straw. It's common to twitch ponies that resist, but surely if you are causing pain that is cruel, and trimming whiskers, is also causing sensory deprivation, which is a longer lasting abuse calculated abuse in the name of fashion and tradition.
		
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I dont pull manes.   Use a solo comb.


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## IrishMilo (2 February 2022)

Another who doesn't pull them.


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## IrishMilo (2 February 2022)

Sandstone1 said:



			Not true.
		
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Do you think a horse and it's handler should be equal? Would still be interested to know how you'd deal with the scenarios I brought up a few posts back!


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## Upthecreek (2 February 2022)

DabDab said:



			It's an interesting discussion in the context of how do we define abuse though. I know to a certain extent we know it when we see it, but that is pretty hard to define legally. We struggle enough to define abuse within our own species let alone abuse of another species.

It's so tricky and nuanced, even just considering my own horses, a raised voice would upset my big horse much more than a punch - he is a very physical horse who communicates a lot through physical contact, both with humans and horses (he has been evicted out of a lot of fields because he is just too physical with the others). It's a tricky subject
		
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I get what you are saying, but I’m not sure defining abuse is that complicated really. Someone elbowing their horse in the ribs in immediate response to being barged into the stable wall is not abuse. It is a physical response  to move the horse away from you to protect yourself. Laying into the horse after it has done that to ‘teach it a lesson’ because you are angry is abuse.

Grabbing a dog by the scruff to stop it being aggressive to another dog is not abuse. Kicking the crap out of it once you have removed it from the situation is abuse.

I am not against physical correction that it is appropriate to the behaviour and the situation. People who can’t control their temper in unpredictable situations probably shouldn’t have horses, dogs or kids.


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## Sandstone1 (2 February 2022)

A true horse man has a partnership with a horse based on respect not violence.   If a horse were to barge me its verbally reminded or pushed over.  A horse could easily kill a person if it wanted to so violence will get you no where


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## ycbm (2 February 2022)

DabDab said:



			Well I have known the odd horse who did seem to enjoy it, but in general I think it is barbaric and I certainly wouldn't ever subject one of mine to it
		
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Same. One mare who was in ecstasy, a couple of geldings who didn't care. All the others I cut.

It's very interesting what you find out when you rarely tie up a horse and allow it to tell you.
.


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## Tiddlypom (2 February 2022)

janietee_5 said:



			I will probably get loads of hate for this, but here goes…..imagine you are being filmed by a load of balaclava clad sabs.   Worried and stressed about how your kid might feel about this and then the pony runs off when kid is trying to load it.  Instinct kicks in thinking about what might happen if said pony gets loose on road and sadly you discipline it in a way that you wouldn’t usually, but said balaclava clad sabs have un-nerved you and made you act out of character.  The rest is history and you regret forever.  Pony is not harmed physically or psychologically but your world falls in and you lose everything.  Maybe think about this before condemning her.  I don’t know her but have seen sabs in action. Not condoning her actions but they are pretty intimidating and scary.  Maybe if their faces weren’t covered they wouldn’t be so scary, but they apparently are allowed to remain anonymous…..
		
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I think that you've nailed what her main line of defence is likely to be. I also suspect that she has been advised that she has more chance of swaying a jury with that spiel than a magistrates' court 🤔.


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## smolmaus (2 February 2022)

paddy555 said:



			dominance (I looked it up) means having power and influence over others. Nothing about aggressive or abusive. That is what we have over the horse.

I am struggling with your 2nd para. Every interaction has to be won to retain your top dog position. Where else is the human's position other than the leader (dominant if you want to call it that) in the herd of 2 ie horse and owner. Where do you see the position of the horse and the human in relation to each other?
		
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I am not using the dictionary definition of "dominance" I am using it in the context of a dog training method which I think was fairly clear? That method uses "physical dominance" which is where the term comes from, often pinning the dog forcibly to the ground until they "submit". 

There is also no "herd of two" I am not a horse, I am not in the herd. We are a provider of resources and an asker of silly questions like "pick up your feet" and "move there" in return. You might call that leadership but it doesn't rely on physical dominance. Some people might train in a way that makes every interaction with their horse a battle of wills, which might bear some resemblance to the dog training method but I dont think many here would want to train that way. It sounds exhausting for one, and two there can't be any trusting relationship.


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## ycbm (2 February 2022)

Tiddlypom said:



			I think that you've nailed what her main line of defence is likely to be. I also suspect that she has been advised that she has more chance of swaying a jury with that spiel than a magistrates' court 🤔.
		
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I think her barrister will also call experts who will say that there is no way the pony was caused significant pain, that it was undamaged,  and that there were no lasting psychological effects.  

ETA and others who explain that it is a recognised technique to get a horse that has failed to load to go onto the lorry to make it more uncomfortable to refuse to do what it has been asked.  

ETA and give the rules, and possibly videos,  of how many times a jockey or Olympic rider is allowed to whip a horse.  

I wonder who's funding her defence?  Crown Court won't be cheap.  
.


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## Upthecreek (2 February 2022)

janietee_5 said:



			I will probably get loads of hate for this, but here goes…..imagine you are being filmed by a load of balaclava clad sabs.   Worried and stressed about how your kid might feel about this and then the pony runs off when kid is trying to load it.  Instinct kicks in thinking about what might happen if said pony gets loose on road and sadly you discipline it in a way that you wouldn’t usually, but said balaclava clad sabs have un-nerved you and made you act out of character.  The rest is history and you regret forever.  Pony is not harmed physically or psychologically but your world falls in and you lose everything.  Maybe think about this before condemning her.  I don’t know her but have seen sabs in action. Not condoning her actions but they are pretty intimidating and scary.  Maybe if their faces weren’t covered they wouldn’t be so scary, but they apparently are allowed to remain anonymous…..
		
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Was she being filmed by a load of balaclava clad sabs? Is that a fact? If so I wouldn’t have wasted time hitting and kicking the pony, I would have got it loaded sharpish and been off. My first instinct in that situation if I was intimidated and fearful would have been to protect my children.


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## paddy555 (2 February 2022)

Tiddlypom said:



			I think that you've nailed what her main line of defence is likely to be. I also suspect that she has been advised that she has more chance of swaying a jury with that spiel than a magistrates' court 🤔.
		
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I agree, I think there will be a lot about the press and not getting a fair trial, a lot about the press intrusion. There will be a lot of character witnesses, a lot supporting her behaviour towards her horses, (not this one of course)  I suspect that she probably has a reasonable chance of being found not guilty. 

Possibly the RSPCA expected her to roll over before the magistrate. 

I was curious about who is funding this. The education trust, the press?


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## ycbm (2 February 2022)

For information.  More than one person has referred to "the Magistrate".  In a Magistrate's  Court, cases are heard either before a bench of three unpaid but well trained volunteers or by one paid District Judge who is legally qualified. 

In view of the high profile of this case it would likely have gone before a DJ, but she has chosen to have a jury trial at Crown Court, as is her right. 
.


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## janietee_5 (2 February 2022)

Upthecreek said:



			Was she being filmed by a load of balaclava clad sabs? Is that a fact? If so I wouldn’t have wasted time hitting and kicking the pony, I would have got it loaded sharpish and been off. My first instinct in that situation if I was intimidated and fearful would have been to protect my children.
		
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I have never seen sabs following a hunt without their balaclavas on so would be really surprised if they had taken them off for this bit of filming.  And thinking that she was trying to get the naughty pony loaded sharpish to try and get her children away from the situation.  That’s probably why this happened.   Pony didn‘t look scared at all and just gave in and loaded once it was reminded not to be naughty…..so in my opinion she was trying to protect her children and get them away from the scary situation asap.


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## Pearlsasinger (2 February 2022)

DabDab said:



			Well I have known the odd horse who did seem to enjoy it, but in general I think it is barbaric and I certainly wouldn't ever subject one of mine to it
		
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We had an Appy who thoroughly enjoyed it  - and every other aspect of showing.  I don't pull manes or tails though, nor do I trim whiskers.  That is abuse imo.  Horses use their whiskers to judge distances,  amongst other things. Neither do I  hog manes, anything that stops a horse keeping itself warm/protected from the elements is abuse imo.
I would also say that abuse is most usually sustained, not a one off incident.


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## DabDab (2 February 2022)

Upthecreek said:



			I get what you are saying, but I’m not sure defining abuse is that complicated really. Someone elbowing their horse in the ribs in immediate response to being barged into the stable wall is not abuse. It is a physical response  to move the horse away from you to protect yourself. Laying into the horse after it has done that to ‘teach it a lesson’ because you are angry is abuse.

Grabbing a dog by the scruff to stop it being aggressive to another dog is not abuse. Kicking the crap out of it once you have removed it from the situation is abuse.

I am not against physical correction that it is appropriate to the behaviour and the situation. People who can’t control their temper in unpredictable situations probably shouldn’t have horses, dogs or kids.
		
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All those examples come into the 'we know it when we see it' category though. But what we see is influenced by our experiences, prejudices, morals, values, societal norms, the fact that we are human....


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## Pearlsasinger (2 February 2022)

paddy555 said:



			I agree, I think there will be a lot about the press and not getting a fair trial, a lot about the press intrusion. There will be a lot of character witnesses, a lot supporting her behaviour towards her horses, (not this one of course)  I suspect that she probably has a reasonable chance of being found not guilty.

Possibly the RSPCA expected her to roll over before the magistrate.

I was curious about who is funding this. The education trust, the press?
		
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This is simply my opinion, I have no inside knowledge of the case but I do know how the unions work.
I would imagine that she is a member of one of the education unions, if so her union membership will cover her legal costs.   If she is found not guilty her legal representative will ask for  the costs to be paid by RSPCA.  
I will also add that unions will advise the course of action most likely to get the outcome that you want.  They must think that she has a good (more than 50%) chance of being found NG by a jury, or they would have recommended magistrates court.


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## paddy555 (2 February 2022)

smolmaus said:



			I am not using the dictionary definition of "dominance" I am using it in the context of a dog training method which I think was fairly clear? That method uses "physical dominance" which is where the term comes from, often pinning the dog forcibly to the ground until they "submit".

There is also no "herd of two" I am not a horse, I am not in the herd. We are a provider of resources and an asker of silly questions like "pick up your feet" and "move there" in return. You might call that leadership but it doesn't rely on physical dominance. Some people might train in a way that makes every interaction with their horse a battle of wills, which might bear some resemblance to the dog training method but I dont think many here would want to train that way. It sounds exhausting for one, and two there can't be any trusting relationship.
		
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you are the leader of the herd, like the description or not. Or at least I hope you are because someone has to be and for the horse's own safety that has to be you. You are riding your horse along a busy road, something appears that terrifies the horse, your leadership will mean the difference between life and death.. Yours and the horses. You are not the "asker of silly questions" you are the boss who says "do it now" and the horse is the follower who understands he has to obey without question. As the leader you have given him the confidence. 

I'm not sure people train to make interaction a battle of wills in fact I think most try to avoid that. I also can see no relevance to dogs and wolves. To me that just seems to be people wanting to come up with theories.  Horses are very different animals. 

You say there is no herd of two. How does your horse see that? You see your relationship as being the provider of resources how does he see it? Does he feel safer with you as his leader? 

To get back to Irish Milo who is still missing an answer to her post. We are in the real world. The 16.3 three year old has had very little handling and most of it has been poor, he is in the stable and decides to exit over the top of the handler. Other than ask the silly question of "please don't do that" what are you going to do? 
Another example you have just taken on a 2yo bottle fed horse. He only has 2 modes, firstly on his back feet and secondly his teeth attached to your tits whenever you get close enough. (that is a real life example of one of mine) 

The trusting relationship part is fine but these are big powerful animals and, when young especially, not always very respectful of their human. 
theories are fine but then there is real life.


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## paddy555 (2 February 2022)

Pearlsasinger said:



			This is simply my opinion, I have no inside knowledge of the case but I do know how the unions work.
I would imagine that she is a member of one of the education unions, if so her union membership will cover her legal costs.   If she is found not guilty her legal representative will ask for  the costs to be paid by RSPCA. 
I will also add that unions will advise the course of action most likely to get the outcome that you want.  They must think that she has a good (more than 50%) chance of being found NG by a jury, or they would have recommended magistrates court.
		
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yes that is certainly one source of funding. I wouldn't be surprised if she is found NG. A bad decision by the RSPCA, too much risk.


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## Upthecreek (2 February 2022)

DabDab said:



			All those examples come into the 'we know it when we see it' category though. But what we see is influenced by our experiences, prejudices, morals, values, societal norms, the fact that we are human....
		
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Legally defining abuse is probably more difficult. I guess that will be the job of members of the jury who will be from a variety of backgrounds and have different life experience.


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## Sandstone1 (2 February 2022)

paddy555 said:



			you are the leader of the herd, like the description or not. Or at least I hope you are because someone has to be and for the horse's own safety that has to be you. You are riding your horse along a busy road, something appears that terrifies the horse, your leadership will mean the difference between life and death.. Yours and the horses. You are not the "asker of silly questions" you are the boss who says "do it now" and the horse is the follower who understands he has to obey without question. As the leader you have given him the confidence.

I'm not sure people train to make interaction a battle of wills in fact I think most try to avoid that. I also can see no relevance to dogs and wolves. To me that just seems to be people wanting to come up with theories.  Horses are very different animals.

You say there is no herd of two. How does your horse see that? You see your relationship as being the provider of resources how does he see it? Does he feel safer with you as his leader?

To get back to Irish Milo who is still missing an answer to her post. We are in the real world. The 16.3 three year old has had very little handling and most of it has been poor, he is in the stable and decides to exit over the top of the handler. Other than ask the silly question of "please don't do that" what are you going to do?
Another example you have just taken on a 2yo bottle fed horse. He only has 2 modes, firstly on his back feet and secondly his teeth attached to your tits whenever you get close enough. (that is a real life example of one of mine)

The trusting relationship part is fine but these are big powerful animals and, when young especially, not always very respectful of their human.
theories are fine but then there is real life. 

Click to expand...

I have actually replied to Irishmilo.   I do live in real life and have horses.   I choose not to abuse them. So what do you do to these horses you mention to  control them?


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## Pearlsasinger (2 February 2022)

paddy555 said:



			yes that is certainly one source of funding. I wouldn't be surprised if she is found NG. A bad decision by the RSPCA, too much risk.
		
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I guess that RSPCA hope that they will be awarded costs when she is found guilty.  I can't see it myself.  I wonder if the RSPCA had to prove that they would be able to pay all costs before they were allowed the court time.  I would think that a jury trial can get very expensive.


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## Upthecreek (2 February 2022)

janietee_5 said:



			I have never seen sabs following a hunt without their balaclavas on so would be really surprised if they had taken them off for this bit of filming.  And thinking that she was trying to get the naughty pony loaded sharpish to try and get her children away from the situation.  That’s probably why this happened.   Pony didn‘t look scared at all and just gave in and loaded once it was reminded not to be naughty…..so in my opinion she was trying to protect her children and get them away from the scary situation asap.
		
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Were they sabs or monitors? Do they really all wear balaclavas? It happened because she let the child attempt to load the pony on the side of the road whilst apparently being intimidated by scary sabs. Why didn’t she take control and load the pony quickly herself?

I’m sure her defence will be along the lines of what you suggest. Trouble is there is video of her, but not of the sabs being intimidating and scary.


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## SusieT (2 February 2022)

Out of interest- if this was filmed at a Saudi endurance race with a young Sheik battering the horse would that be different?
Or at the races in the winners enclosure?
Or at Appleby fair? 
Would you all be jumping to say it's really just perfectly appropriate horse treatment ?


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## Lexi_ (2 February 2022)

As I said somewhere earlier in the thread, I am absolutely not buying the  “desperate to get the pony loaded” excuse. She was standing chatting on the other end of the lorry and left the kid to it. She wasn’t watching the kid or doing anything that looked as if she felt threatened or in a rush. She only showed any sense of urgency when she decided to briefly lay into the pony.


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## Upthecreek (2 February 2022)

Lexi_ said:



			As I said somewhere earlier in the thread, I am absolutely not buying the  “desperate to get the pony loaded” excuse. She was standing chatting on the other end of the lorry and left the kid to it. She wasn’t watching the kid or doing anything that looked as if she felt threatened or in a rush. She only showed any sense of urgency when she decided to briefly lay into the pony.
		
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I think that may be her downfall. The video speaks for itself really. It’s going to be difficult for the defence to argue that her actions were as a result of being intimidated and scared when that’s not backed up by the video evidence.


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## DabDab (2 February 2022)

SusieT said:



			Would you all be jumping to say it's really just perfectly appropriate horse treatment ?
		
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Yes that's what these responses read 😂

Honestly Susie, you could start a row with the mirror


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## Sandstone1 (2 February 2022)

janietee_5 said:



			I have never seen sabs following a hunt without their balaclavas on so would be really surprised if they had taken them off for this bit of filming.  And thinking that she was trying to get the naughty pony loaded sharpish to try and get her children away from the situation.  That’s probably why this happened.   Pony didn‘t look scared at all and just gave in and loaded once it was reminded not to be naughty…..so in my opinion she was trying to protect her children and get them away from the scary situation asap.
		
Click to expand...

Its hardly unusual for anyone to wear a mask these days...


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## ycbm (2 February 2022)

SusieT said:



			Would you all be jumping to say it's really just perfectly appropriate horse treatment ?
		
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Nobody,  anywhere on this forum,  has said that. 

The only thing which had been said is that the punishment she has already received,  without even getting to court,  has been disproportionate. 
.


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## Pearlsasinger (2 February 2022)

Upthecreek said:



			I think that may be her downfall. The video speaks for itself really. It’s going to be difficult for the defence to argue that her actions were as a result of being intimidated and scared when that’s not backed up by the video evidence.
		
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I wonder how the RSPCA expert witness is going to explain to a non-horsey jury the difference between  'pony club kicks' and what was seen on the video. There will be plenty of video clips of riders doing pony club kicks, at shows etc. 
They could even show clips of racing a tight finish with whips. that can't be abuse,the RSPCA don't even prosecute 'misuse of the whip cases'.  Jockeys who are found guilty of MOW by racing stewards only lose a few days employment, certainly not their whole careers.

Are they going to be able to say the pony doesn't feel it on his ribs but did on his chest?  How will they explain the clip that will be shown of a fly landing on the skin and the pony obviously twitching because he has felt it?

The whole thing is a nonsense fuelled purely by the anti-hunting lobby.


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## minesadouble (2 February 2022)

Sandstone1 said:



			A true horse man has a partnership with a horse based on respect not violence.   If a horse were to barge me its verbally reminded or pushed over.  A horse could easily kill a person if it wanted to so violence will get you no where
		
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Oh my word you would have our old 13.2 NFs dream owner. He would run over the top of you as soon as you opened his stable door an inch when we first got him. I'm not sure your verbal reprimand would have much impact on his little brown ass as it disappeared off into the sunset, as for a push, he'd be long gone before you could lay a finger on him 😂


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## Sandstone1 (2 February 2022)

minesadouble said:



			Oh my word you would have our old 13.2 NFs dream owner. He would run over the top of you as soon as you opened his stable door an inch when we first got him. I'm not sure your verbal reprimand would have much impact on his little brown ass as it disappeared off into the sunset, as for a push, he'd be long gone before you could lay a finger on him 😂
		
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Maybe he had learnt not to trust people.  I wonder why?


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## Upthecreek (2 February 2022)

Pearlsasinger said:



			I wonder how the RSPCA expert witness is going to explain to a non-horsey jury the difference between  'pony club kicks' and what was seen on the video. There will be plenty of video clips of riders doing pony club kicks, at shows etc.
They could even show clips of racing a tight finish with whips. that can't be abuse,the RSPCA don't even prosecute 'misuse of the whip cases'.  Jockeys who are found guilty of MOW by racing stewards only lose a few days employment, certainly not their whole careers.

Are they going to be able to say the pony doesn't feel it on his ribs but did on his chest?  How will they explain the clip that will be shown of a fly landing on the skin and the pony obviously twitching because he has felt it?

The whole thing is a nonsense fuelled purely by the anti-hunting lobby.
		
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I have no idea. The defence could of course present evidence of all manner of ‘abuse’. Whether or not it is relevant or comparable to this particular case will be for the jury to decide. Unfortunately for the teacher her association with hunting will not help her case.


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## Red-1 (3 February 2022)

If she is now jobless, would she not get legal aid?


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## Amymay (3 February 2022)

Red-1 said:



			If she is now jobless, would she not get legal aid?
		
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Quite possibly.


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## Gallop_Away (3 February 2022)

Upthecreek said:



			Were they sabs or monitors? Do they really all wear balaclavas? It happened because she let the child attempt to load the pony on the side of the road whilst apparently being intimidated by scary sabs. Why didn’t she take control and load the pony quickly herself?

I’m sure her defence will be along the lines of what you suggest. Trouble is there is video of her, but not of the sabs being intimidating and scary.
		
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I'm sure the defence could easily ask fellow hunt members who were also there that day to give witness statements if that is in fact the case and sabs were being intimidating. 
I'm still wondering what illegal hunting they had hoped to film in a car park with women and children. I do work in a legal profession although I work in a solicitors, but this is also a line of questioning I think her barrister may also wish to pursue.


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## Berpisc (3 February 2022)

Sandstone1 said:



			Maybe he had learnt not to trust people.  I wonder why?
		
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He might also have learned that he could move people. When you watch interactions between horses ( as I am sure you know) and other herd animals, who moves who is an important part of group politics. It is in humans in a more complicated way.


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## Sandstone1 (3 February 2022)

Berpisc said:



			He might also have learned that he could move people. When you watch interactions between horses ( as I am sure you know) and other herd animals, who moves who is an important part of group politics. It is in humans in a more complicated way.
		
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I agree, horses use a lot of body language and a look, a ear back or a leg raised is often enough to get another horse to move.   Yes they will at times also kick and bite each other.   As said before though we are not horses and horses are not humans.   They can and do learn they can make us move and we can make them move by getting them to move their feet etc.
We can all go round and round with this, but I for one will not except that what that woman did was nothing more or less than a temper tantrum on a innocent animal.
Times are changing hopefully for the better even if slowly and its going to be interesting to see the result of the court case.


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## smolmaus (3 February 2022)

paddy555 said:



			you are the leader of the herd, like the description or not. Or at least I hope you are because someone has to be and for the horse's own safety that has to be you. You are riding your horse along a busy road, something appears that terrifies the horse, your leadership will mean the difference between life and death.. Yours and the horses. You are not the "asker of silly questions" you are the boss who says "do it now" and the horse is the follower who understands he has to obey without question. As the leader you have given him the confidence.

I'm not sure people train to make interaction a battle of wills in fact I think most try to avoid that. I also can see no relevance to dogs and wolves. To me that just seems to be people wanting to come up with theories.  Horses are very different animals.

You say there is no herd of two. How does your horse see that? You see your relationship as being the provider of resources how does he see it? Does he feel safer with you as his leader?

To get back to Irish Milo who is still missing an answer to her post. We are in the real world. The 16.3 three year old has had very little handling and most of it has been poor, he is in the stable and decides to exit over the top of the handler. Other than ask the silly question of "please don't do that" what are you going to do?
Another example you have just taken on a 2yo bottle fed horse. He only has 2 modes, firstly on his back feet and secondly his teeth attached to your tits whenever you get close enough. (that is a real life example of one of mine)

The trusting relationship part is fine but these are big powerful animals and, when young especially, not always very respectful of their human.
theories are fine but then there is real life. 

Click to expand...

Yes it has zero to do with dogs and wolves which is the exact point i was making. Using terms like Alpha and "dominance theory" is idiotic to use with horses as we CANNOT physically dominate them. You're agreeing with me and trying to wordplay it into an argument.


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## Birker2020 (3 February 2022)

Pearlsasinger said:



			I wonder how the RSPCA expert witness is going to explain to a non-horsey jury the difference between  'pony club kicks' and what was seen on the video. There will be plenty of video clips of riders doing pony club kicks, at shows etc.
They could even show clips of racing a tight finish with whips. that can't be abuse,the RSPCA don't even prosecute 'misuse of the whip cases'.  Jockeys who are found guilty of MOW by racing stewards only lose a few days employment, certainly not their whole careers.

Are they going to be able to say the pony doesn't feel it on his ribs but did on his chest?  How will they explain the clip that will be shown of a fly landing on the skin and the pony obviously twitching because he has felt it?

The whole thing is a nonsense fuelled purely by the anti-hunting lobby.
		
Click to expand...

I've never heard such rubbish in all my life.  It scares me that you are a teacher and you think her behaviour is appropriate or justified somehow and how you think the consequence of her actions are disproportionate to what has happened to her.

How can you possibly compare pony club kicks with deliberately kicking a horse in the chest after you have 'lost it' with it??  And comparing hitting a horse with a whip on its ribs and kicking it in the chest - its not the same thing my any stretch of the imagination.

It doesn't matter a jot whether the sabs were being intimidating or not. 

I think you have genuinely lost the plot on this one.


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## ycbm (3 February 2022)

Gallop_Away said:



			I'm still wondering what illegal hunting they had hoped to film in a car park with women and children
		
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And going back to the original point of the thread.  They weren't in a car park.  They were parked on the verges of a road which looked like it was probably a public road.  The sabs were probably hoping to film some of the very prevalent antisocial behaviour,  like blocking roads while you wash down a horse,  which takes place at hunt meets.


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## TPO (3 February 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			I've never heard such rubbish in all my life.  It scares me that you are a teacher and you think her behaviour is appropriate or justified somehow and how you think the consequence of her actions are disproportionate to what has happened to her.

How can you possibly compare pony club kicks with deliberately kicking a horse in the chest after you have 'lost it' with it??  And comparing hitting a horse with a whip on its ribs and kicking it in the chest - its not the same thing my any stretch of the imagination.

It doesn't matter a jot whether the sabs were being intimidating or not. 

I think you have genuinely lost the plot on this one.
		
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You have just posted about hitting your horse on the head 


Birker2020 said:



			after the 100th time of smacking his nose
		
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Know when to call it a day instead of constantly trying to provoke posters so you can then play the victim.


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## ycbm (3 February 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			I've never heard such rubbish in all my life.  It scares me that you are a teacher and you think her behaviour is appropriate or justified somehow and how you think the consequence of her actions are disproportionate to what has happened to her.

How can you possibly compare pony club kicks with deliberately kicking a horse in the chest after you have 'lost it' with it??  And comparing hitting a horse with a whip on its ribs and kicking it in the chest - its not the same thing my any stretch of the imagination.

It doesn't matter a jot whether the sabs were being intimidating or not. 

I think you have genuinely lost the plot on this one.
		
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Please read what PaS actually wrote Birker. She is musing on what will be presented to a non horsey jury,  she is not saying the teachers behaviour was justified or acceptable to her. She doesn't think that and she and others have made that very clear to you now,  many,  many times over.


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## Birker2020 (3 February 2022)

TPO said:



			Know when to call it a day instead of constantly trying to provoke posters so you can then play the victim.
		
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In other words cower to you and your toxic cronies and stop coming on here. Nah I don't think so.  You won't drive me away and why should I let you.  You are just one of a toxic few on here that treat people with an alternative opinion despicably and disrespectfully and you are the ones constantly trying to provoke me so don't come that nonsense.  You are just bullies plain and simple and inflame the situation to incite others into your way of thinking.

I've never played the victim and I haven't hit my horse on the head, I have smacked his nose as he has nipped me yes.  And I don't apologise for that.  Having a conversation with him didn't work at the time .

I have also put a reply a few back about how I have dealt with him now which is more effective way than tapping his nose but I don't expect you were interested in that because you couldn't convert that into a negative remark.  Post 466.

If I got a whip out on him and beat him several times across the face or the chest or the bum or I kicked him in the chest or ribs then I deserve what I get and I would never do those things because I never have treated any horse like that and never would.  Its a huge privilege to have a horse and one that I take in the highest regard. However, I won't be bitten either.

Of course PAS who is saying its my fault I am bitten/nipped or have my coat sucked is because I'm in the way has absolutely never in her life been bitten or kicked, has never done anything wrong or made any mistake and is 100% perfect in everyway.....

If you don't want to take any notice of what I say please by all means put me on UI.


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## TPO (3 February 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			In other words cower to you and your toxic cronies and stop coming on here. Nah I don't think so.  You won't drive me away and why should I let you.  You are just one of a toxic few on here that treat people with an alternative opinion despicably and disrespectfully and you are the ones constantly trying to provoke me so don't come that nonsense.  You are just bullies plain and simple and inflame the situation to incite others into your way of thinking.

I've never played the victim and I haven't hit my horse on the head, I have smacked his nose as he has nipped me yes.  And I don't apologise for that.  Having a conversation with him didn't work at the time .

I have also put a reply a few back about how I have dealt with him now which is more effective way than tapping his nose but I don't expect you were interested in that because you couldn't convert that into a negative remark.

If I got a whip out on him and beat him several times across the face or the chest or the bum or I kicked him in the chest or ribs then I deserve what I get and I would never do those things because I never have treated any horse like that and never would.  Its a huge privilege to have a horse and one that I take in the highest regard. However, I won't be bit.

Of course PAS who is saying its my fault I am bitten/nipped or have my coat sucked is because I'm in the way has absolutely never in her life been bitten or kicked, has never done anything wrong or made any mistake and is 100% perfect in everyway.....

If you don't want to take any notice of what I say please by all means put me on UI.
		
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🙄 you conveniently skipped past @The Fuzzy Furry post as she has screenshot of you being a bully.

You were a horrible bully and nasty as applecart and hopscotch. Now as birker as soon as something doesn't go your way you claim to be be a victim of bullying and that you've never done anything wrong to anyone. Maybe instead of constantly derailing threads you could spend some time looking through the posting history of all three accounts to gain some perspective.


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## Pearlsasinger (3 February 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			Of course PAS who is saying its my fault I am bitten/nipped or have my coat sucked is because I'm in the way has absolutely never in her life been bitten or kicked,
		
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No, actually, I haven't, I watch their body language and am aware of my own.   I have kept horses for almost 50 yrs, in multiples up to 5 and the nearest that I have come to being bitten was when the TBxWelsh grabbed the toggle on my coat while I was feeding her in the field and swallowed it!

I would not dream of smacking a horse's nose, or any other part of its face, it's all equally bad to me. I push them away if I need to. 

I am pleased that you have now found a better way but there is really no need to become evangelical about it, like a reformed smoker, condemning those who have not yet seen the light.


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## Birker2020 (3 February 2022)

Pearlsasinger said:



			N 

I am pleased that you have now found a better way but there is really no need to become evangelical about it, like a reformed smoker, condemning those who have not yet seen the light.

Click to expand...

Err, I wasn't????? 

I don't know why you come out with this stuff other than to provoke me into another reaction.


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## YorksG (3 February 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			Err, I wasn't????? 

I don't know why you come out with this stuff other than to provoke me into another reaction.
		
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Perhaps you could ask yourself why you make personalised, unpleasant comments. It appears to me that you do so, to then complain about being bullied, when actually, you are the one who appears to be behaving in a bullying manner.


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## Pearlsasinger (3 February 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			Err, I wasn't????? 

Click to expand...

You have been condemning Sarah Moulds all the way through this thread for hitting her horse on the head a few times on camera, and yet as TPO showed you, you have told us yourself that you hit your horse on the head (that's where his nose is) 100s of times.  Personally I feel that it  is wrong to hit a horse anywhere on the head *once*


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## Gallop_Away (3 February 2022)

ycbm said:



			And going back to the original point of the thread.  They weren't in a car park.  They were parked on the verges of a road which looked like it was probably a public road.  The sabs were probably hoping to film some of the very prevalent antisocial behaviour,  like blocking roads while you wash down a horse,  which takes place at hunt meets.
		
Click to expand...

Ok but then I think this will still also help towards her intimidation defence. "The masked men were filming me and my children". Sabs also do use filming as an intimidation technique and I'm sure they could as hunt members to testify to that effect.


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## Amymay (3 February 2022)

Gallop_Away said:



			Ok but then I think this will still also help towards her intimidation defence. "The masked men were filming me and my children". Sabs also do use filming as an intimidation technique and I'm sure they could as hunt members to testify to that effect.
		
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How does intimidation lead to you kicking and slapping your horse?  And if you feel intimidated why leave a child and pony unattended?


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## Gallop_Away (3 February 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			It doesn't matter a jot whether the sabs were being intimidating or not.
		
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It may not matter in your opinion but it could make every difference to her defence and the opinion of the jury.


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## Pearlsasinger (3 February 2022)

Pearlsasinger said:



			You have been condemning Sarah Moulds all the way through this thread for hitting her horse on the head a few times on camera, and yet as TPO showed you, you have told us yourself that you hit your horse on the head (that's where his nose is) 100s of times.  Personally I feel that it  is wrong to hit a horse anywhere on the head *once*
		
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I should also add that the horses muzzle (nose/mouth) is the most sensitive part of the horse's head, so most likely to feel pain if it is hit.


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## Gallop_Away (3 February 2022)

Amymay said:



			How does intimidation lead to you kicking and slapping your horse?  And if you feel intimidated why leave a child and pony unattended?
		
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I'm not saying I agree with this line of thinking, but I agree with the previous posters who have said that they think her defense barrister will use this argument, that she felt intimidated by sabs who were masked and filming her and her children, and she acted out of panic/distress or whatever you want to call it, trying to get out of there as quickly as possible.


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## Gallop_Away (3 February 2022)

janietee_5 said:



			I will probably get loads of hate for this, but here goes…..imagine you are being filmed by a load of balaclava clad sabs.   Worried and stressed about how your kid might feel about this and then the pony runs off when kid is trying to load it.  Instinct kicks in thinking about what might happen if said pony gets loose on road and sadly you discipline it in a way that you wouldn’t usually, but said balaclava clad sabs have un-nerved you and made you act out of character.  The rest is history and you regret forever.  Pony is not harmed physically or psychologically but your world falls in and you lose everything.  Maybe think about this before condemning her.  I don’t know her but have seen sabs in action. Not condoning her actions but they are pretty intimidating and scary.  Maybe if their faces weren’t covered they wouldn’t be so scary, but they apparently are allowed to remain anonymous…..
		
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Janietee has worded it much better than I x


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## YorksG (3 February 2022)

Given the behaviour of some sabs, then I think she may well be able to use the "intimidation " defence. I saw on Facebook, this week,  a photograph, on a sabs page,of a woman at a meet,eating a sausage roll, the vile and extremely personal comments were astonishing. Nothing whatsoever to do with illegal hunting.


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## Birker2020 (3 February 2022)

Pearlsasinger said:



			You have been condemning Sarah Moulds all the way through this thread for hitting her horse on the head a few times on camera, and yet as TPO showed you, you have told us yourself that you hit your horse on the head (that's where his nose is) 100s of times.  Personally I feel that it  is wrong to hit a horse anywhere on the head *once*
		
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Firstly I don't hit him on the head, you make it sound like I am striking him on the side of his face or the top of his head.
Secondly I don't 'hit' him at all, I give him a tap on his nose
Thirdly I haven't 'hit' him hundreds of times 
Fourthly I have tried lots of corrective behaviour techniques and explained twice now about the one I have found that is most effective.

And giving him a smack/tap on the nose as I used to because he has nipped me or pulled my coat for the umpteenth time *IS NOT* the same as punching a horse four times and kicking it in the chest and to suggest it is comparable is totally erroneous.

You act like you can do no wrong criticising us mere mortals and looking down from your pedestal like you are God or something.
One thing I've never doubted is that you never stop learning with horses and those that think they know it all like you, I'm afraid usually don't.


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## YorksG (3 February 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			Firstly I don't hit him on the head, you make it sound like I am striking him on the side of his face or the top of his head.
Secondly I don't 'hit' him at all, I give him a tap on his nose
Thirdly I haven't 'hit' him hundreds of times
Fourthly I have tried lots of corrective behaviour techniques and explained twice now about the one I have found that is most effective.

And giving him a smack/tap on the nose as I used to because he has nipped me or pulled my coat for the umpteenth time *IS NOT* the same as punching a horse four times and kicking it in the chest and to suggest it is comparable is totally erroneous.

You act like you can do no wrong criticising us mere mortals and looking down from your pedestal like you are God or something.
One thing I've never doubted is that you never stop learning with horses and those that think they know it all like you, I'm afraid usually don't.
		
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Surely you have told us that you have struck your horse on the nose? If you are now debating the level of force behind the strike, then this is a whole other level. Who is to decide what level of force is acceptable, in any given situation?


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## Asha (3 February 2022)

Sabs can be very intimidating . I dont hunt, never have but did go to watch what it was all about. I had my first and last interaction with them. I can assure you they are very intimidating. I can imagine if i was alone on the side of the road with young children and was being watched / filmed etc by them i too would panic.  ( im not saying the lady in question did as i wasnt there /dont know her and in no way where her actions right bla bla  etc etc ) But i can understand why anyone would panic. 
The 'sabs' i met drove a car at the hunt secretary in front of everyone. They then slashed tyres on all horseboxes.  They where masked. On my home i bumped into them, and to stop anything getting out of hand filmed them. As by that point the ring leader was leaning over a fence  swearing and threatening the hunt master. After this, they came over to me and my daughter and suggested hunting was as bad as them coming to my home with their pit bulls and letting them eat my cats....


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## Pearlsasinger (3 February 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			Firstly I don't hit him on the head,

.
		
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Birker2020 said:



			Hand on heart the only consistent thing that I have found that works *after the 100th time of smacking his nose *or telling him in a gruff voice "NO!" is when he goes to bite/chew something and then decides not to.  You can see him working out the pros and cons in his mind and he goes to mouth something or bite something/someone and then decides against it.

............................................

This past fortnight I have rarely had him try to chew/bite anything which is progress. .
		
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I rest my case.

How long have you had him?   How many weeks did you persevere with trying to stop the habit through physical punishment?  Poor horse!


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## YorksG (3 February 2022)

Which action do people think is most likely to cause a horse to become headshy? One occasion, that we are aware of, or being hit in the face or a hundred times on the muzzle,over a matter of weeks?


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## tristar (3 February 2022)

IrishMilo said:



			Do you think a horse and it's handler should be equal? Would still be interested to know how you'd deal with the scenarios I brought up a few posts back![/QUOTE

sometimes i say to a horse oh go on its fine, and sometimes a horse says to me, come on its fine.
i have one who will be a bit interfering in a head shaking way in the field, so i turn towards him and stamp my foot, to which he nearly has heart failure then dodges away, then a few moments later comes up quietly for a chat, and reading all this i thought what i was doing is just what a stallion or dominant mare might do, so his reaction is spot on, ie he understands
i might add he ran wild for  4 years on his own, except for goats, until 6 months ago
		
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## Amymay (3 February 2022)

Gallop_Away said:



			I'm not saying I agree with this line of thinking, but I agree with the previous posters who have said that they think her defense barrister will use this argument, that she felt intimidated by sabs who were masked and filming her and her children, and she acted out of panic/distress or whatever you want to call it, trying to get out of there as quickly as possible.
		
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Yes I think that’s exactly what will happen.  I guess my question was to counter that, especially where the child was concerned.  It’s what I’d ask as the prosecutor.


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## Quigleyandme (3 February 2022)

Hunt sabs, as opposed to hunt monitors can be vile. There are the ones who just make a lot of noise to confuse hounds and disrupt and there are the ones who think of themselves as some sort of SAS style militia. I’m old enough to recall when the local hunt was followed by a police helicopter during Saturday meets to protect the field against sabs. One puffed English mustard powder up my friend’s horse’s nose causing it a great deal of distress. These people dragged a disabled young man out of a car in central London because of a liberty and livelihood sticker. Dug up and stole the remains of an elderly woman whose family farmed Guinea pigs. Expressed their unbridled joy when a child was killed in a hunting accident and when a hunt supporter was decapitated by a gyrocopter there to disrupt and film a hunt. How long do you imagine you or I could film children in a playground whilst wearing a balaclava before we were arrested? When hunting no longer exists these crazy nihilists will turn their attention to other horse sports or maybe to us for just keeping horses “in captivity”.


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## Birker2020 (3 February 2022)

TPO said:



			🙄 you conveniently skipped past @The Fuzzy Furry post as she has screenshot of you being a bully.

You were a horrible bully and nasty as applecart and hopscotch. Now as birker as soon as something doesn't go your way you claim to be be a victim of bullying and that you've never done anything wrong to anyone. Maybe instead of constantly derailing threads you could spend some time looking through the posting history of all three accounts to gain some perspective.
		
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wow what a lovely person you are. Talk about toxic, you literally ooze vitrol from every orifice.     

Of course if you can show me any examples of when I've been bullying towards others I'd very much like to see. But of course you never can, when questionned like the others I have asked to give me examples, none are ever forthcoming.  I've never treated anyone the way you have treated me and your other little cronies.


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## Birker2020 (3 February 2022)

Gallop_Away said:



			It may not matter in your opinion but it could make every difference to her defence and the opinion of the jury.
		
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Gosh you are living in cloud cuckoo land.  She was filmed hitting a horse and being (imho) quite violent towards it. I would hazard a guess (not hard to imagine tbh) that the school don't want someone that can do that near any kids nor would any sensible parents. Nor in a volunteering role either.  Now whether that is as a result of a meeting such as I described having taken place or whether it is as a result of the school being bought into direpute.  What defence she has has got to be minimal. Unless she can prove they terminated her employment illegally or without justification (if it was terminated )

What happened to her being filmed by sabs won't figure.

Years ago when I was in my mid twenties a livery who I'd grown quite close to hacking out together lost her rag with her horse, jumped off it in the school and started beating it with a whip, like pounding it with the whip over and over -she was dragged off it by other liveries.  She reckoned she'd had a nervous breakdown.

If someone had wanted to they could have made a whole lot of trouble for her as she was a foster carer at the time.


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## milliepops (3 February 2022)

the court case is not about  her employment though??


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## Gallop_Away (3 February 2022)

Amymay said:



			Yes I think that’s exactly what will happen.  I guess my question was to counter that, especially where the child was concerned.  It’s what I’d ask as the prosecutor.
		
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I think it will be a very interesting case to watch unfold regardless of your feelings on the matter.


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## Gallop_Away (3 February 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			Gosh you are living in cloud cuckoo land.  She was filmed hitting a horse and being (imho) quite violent towards it. I would hazard a guess (not hard to imagine tbh) that the school don't want someone that can do that near any kids nor would any sensible parents. Nor in a volunteering role either.  Now whether that is as a result of a meeting such as I described having taken place or whether it is as a result of the school being bought into direpute.  What defence she has has got to be minimal. Unless she can prove they terminated her employment illegally or without justification (if it was terminated )

What happened to her being filmed by sabs won't figure.

Years ago when I was in my mid twenties a livery who I'd grown quite close to hacking out together lost her rag with her horse, jumped off it in the school and started beating it with a whip, like pounding it with the whip over and over -she was dragged off it by other liveries.  She reckoned she'd had a nervous breakdown.

If someone had wanted to they could have made a whole lot of trouble for her as she was a foster carer at the time.
		
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I'm sorry have you been a "minute taker" in a similar court room case to? 🙄
Wind your neck in. I'm entitled to give my opinion on the matter exactly the same as you. 
Where also have I mentioned the school or an employment tribunal? I am talking about the upcoming prosecution case by the RSPCA.


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## Birker2020 (3 February 2022)

milliepops said:



			the court case is not about  her employment though??
		
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No and it won't be allowed to be mentioned and if the case goes ahead I expect the case will be heard in an area away from her locality due to public feeling on the matter.  The jury may be asked to disregard what they know of her to date.


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## milliepops (3 February 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			wow what a lovely person you are. Talk about toxic, you literally ooze vitrol from every orifice.     

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I do have to counter this, TPO is actually a tremendously kind and generous person and i think quite a few of us on this forum have been on the receiving end of her thoughtfulness. 
I think it would be better if you stepped away from this thread Birker for your own sake, it's just becoming a bit of a circus now.


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## Birker2020 (3 February 2022)

Gallop_Away said:



			I'm sorry have you been a "minute taker" in a similar court room case to? 🙄
Wind your neck in. I'm entitled to give my opinion on the matter exactly the same as you.
		
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Misquoted again I see.  I never said I minute took at Crown Court but neither have you.  'Wind your neck in' what a totally lovely and charming way to speak to someone 

I used to minute take at Position of Trust meetings where referrals were made iwhen it met the harm threshold and it was alleged that the person who worked with children has behaved in a way that had harmed a child, or may have harmed a child; possibly committed a criminal offence against or related to a child; or behaved towards a child or children in a way that indicates they may pose a risk of harm to children.  Also in addition to that if an allegation arose about a member of staff, outside of their work with children, and this may have presented as a risk of harm/risk of children for whom the member of staff is responsible through their employment/volunteering the we would investigate that.

I used to convene the meetings and invite all the relevant agencies and then minute take.

Yes you can give your opinion and your opinion is worth as much as mine.   I didn't say otherwise.  But her defence won't be anything about sabs.  If anything she will try and minimise her involvement in hunting I would have thought as I expect most people that form a jury I would have thought would be anti hunt.


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## Birker2020 (3 February 2022)

milliepops said:



			I do have to counter this, TPO is actually a tremendously kind and generous person and i think quite a few of us on this forum have been on the receiving end of her thoughtfulness.
I think it would be better if you stepped away from this thread Birker for your own sake, it's just becoming a bit of a circus now.
		
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Whatever


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## Gallop_Away (3 February 2022)

Birker you really do need to take a deep breath and step away from the thread.....

I replied to you with the same patronising tone in which you replied to me. 
Unless you have been privy to this woman's meetings with her barrister you can not categorically state what her defence will be or tell me my opinion on the matter is wrong. 
I have stated what I *think* her defence will be. Who are you to tell me I am wrong? By all means hold a different opinion but the way you shout those down who hold a different view to you is rude and undermines your point.


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## milliepops (3 February 2022)

OK well i guess we can look forward to another 19 pages of tit for tat. At some point it might pay to accept that we can't all have the last word.


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## Birker2020 (3 February 2022)

Gallop_Away said:



			Birker you really do need to take a deep breath and step away from the thread.....
		
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## Birker2020 (3 February 2022)

milliepops said:



			OK well i guess we can look forward to another 19 pages of tit for tat. At some point it might pay to accept that we can't all have the last word.
		
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Sorry but its a forum.

I've been insulted on here left right and centre and accused of God only knows what that no one can back up.  And you want me to back off?? How does that work exactly?

Oh I forgot I'm a bully (apparently).


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## milliepops (3 February 2022)

I don't give the smallest toss whether you back off or not, it doesn't affect me in the slightest.
 I am not trying to add fuel to the fire, but to stop you from self combusting tbh.  It appears that you're getting really personally involved and i can only see this either getting even worse or the thread being locked.

On another thread TFC said it was unlikely that each side would change the other's mind, this feels similar.. sometimes it's better to save your breath, that's all.


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## Birker2020 (3 February 2022)

milliepops said:



			I don't give the smallest toss whether you back off or not, it doesn't affect me in the slightest.
I am not trying to add fuel to the fire, but to stop you from self combusting tbh.  It appears that you're getting really personally involved and i can only see this either getting even worse or the thread being locked.

On another thread TFC said it was unlikely that each side would change the other's mind, this feels similar.. sometimes it's better to save your breath, that's all.
		
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Well its nice to think someone gives a damn about the state of my mental health after all these nasty comments and unfounded allegations about being a bully and hitting my horse over the head a few hundred times have been said, that's if its a genuine concern.

I just think we should all be kinder to each other, I would never dream of saying the stuff people have said to me in the last two dozen posts especially without any proof.  And saying poor horse about the horse I have hit a few hundred times.  I'm sorry but I've not HIT him a FEW HUNDRED TIMES.  He has has a smack when he has bitten me, yes.  PAS stop making up lies please!!


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## Gallop_Away (3 February 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			Well its nice to think someone gives a damn about the state of my mental health after all these nasty comments and unfounded allegations about being a bully and hitting my horse over the head a few hundred times have been said, that's if its a genuine concern.

I just think we should all be kinder to each other, I would never dream of saying the stuff people have said to me in the last two dozen posts especially without any proof.  And saying poor horse about the horse I have hit a few hundred times.  I'm sorry but I've not HIT him a FEW HUNDRED TIMES.  He has has a smack when he has bitten me, yes.  PAS stop making up lies please!!
		
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A lot of which you have brought on yourself sadly, but you refuse to see that. Milliepops is right. For your own wellbeing take a step back


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## Forum Admin Team (3 February 2022)

That's enough on this matter. 

If civility doesn't take priority when posting then some users may find their access limited in future.


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