# Welcome, Hermosa



## Caol Ila (4 March 2021)

I thought my baby PRE should have her own thread, now that she has arrived. She was worried about the getting off the lorry and it took some faff and convincing. But when she did, she sensibly made her way down the ramp, instead of launching into space. Unfortunately, the lorry was so efficient that we didn't have much time to make up her bed. OH got a crash course from the barn staff in laying down a bed instead of being a photographer, while I led Hermosa around the yard. She was really good for a two-year old. Then we put her into the stable. She was happy once hay appeared and ignored the sounds of construction in the background, but acted a bit worried by horses going back and forth. There wasn't a lot of activity at her old yard. Hopefully, she will soon get used to that. But she let me brush her and pick up her front feet.  

Here are the best of our rubbish photos. I'll get some better ones later. She sweated up a bit on the lorry ride.


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## ArklePig (4 March 2021)

She's beautiful!! I hope ye settle in well together.


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## LeneHorse (4 March 2021)

What a wee sweetie 💕


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## j1ffy (4 March 2021)

How exciting! You can't beat a baby PRE 😍


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## ycbm (4 March 2021)

Her head is so like Deza   Lovely girl,  I'll look forward to your progress reports.  

Congratulations!


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## zandp (4 March 2021)

She's gorgeous, but you know that !


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## Tarragon (4 March 2021)

How exciting! She  looks lovely and I am looking forward to seeing  how she develops.
I love your airy stable barn too


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## Slightlyconfused (4 March 2021)

Oh she is lovely


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## Ambers Echo (4 March 2021)

Gorgeous! Wishing you many happy years together. What does Gypsum think of her?


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## Cortez (4 March 2021)

Very nice, what's her breeding? UK bred I presume?


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## Caol Ila (4 March 2021)

Yeah, she's from the South Side of Glasgow, and her breeder has conveniently put her pedigree on her website: https://www.foresideandalusianstud.com/bozenas-hermosa.html

Gypsum hasn't met her yet. They're not stabled next door to one another, and Gypsum likes to eat horses so I don't let her touch noses with things.


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## Cortez (4 March 2021)

Caol Ila said:



			Yeah, she's from the South Side of Glasgow, and her breeder has conveniently put her pedigree on her website: https://www.foresideandalusianstud.com/bozenas-hermosa.html

Gypsum hasn't met her yet. They're not stabled next door to one another, and Gypsum likes to eat horses to I don't let her touch noses with things.
		
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Aha! My horse (<<< in avatar) is your filly's uncle! Macetero is lovely, and the breeding on this side is exceptionally good old Bocado lines. Congratulations.


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## Caol Ila (4 March 2021)

That's awesome. I met Dad at the stud. He's running with the broodmares and youngstock, and he was beautiful and seemed very kind and gentle.


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## Cortez (4 March 2021)

Caol Ila said:



			That's awesome. I met Dad at the stud. He's running with the broodmares and youngstock, and he was beautiful and seemed very kind and gentle.
		
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Yes, the line has lovely temperaments, if quite sensitive. The stud are well into the whole natural stuff, so she won't have been mollycoddled. Macetero is by the same sire as mine, and out of a half sister of his, so they are actually 3/4 brothers AND uncle/nephew.


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## TheOldTrout (4 March 2021)

She is lovely.


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## Red-1 (4 March 2021)

Congratulations! You look very happy.


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## Inda (4 March 2021)

Congratulations on the baby. Maybe in the future we can let the sisters meet for a hack


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## Meowy Catkin (4 March 2021)

She's really lovely.


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## Caol Ila (4 March 2021)

Inda said:



			Congratulations on the baby. Maybe in the future we can let the sisters meet for a hack
		
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That would be wonderful. Maybe by the time Hermosa is under saddle, we will be free from travel restrictions.


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## Jeni the dragon (4 March 2021)

She is lovely!


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## ycbm (4 March 2021)

Caol Ila said:



			That would be wonderful. Maybe by the time Hermosa is under saddle, we will be free from travel restrictions.
		
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😲😲😲


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## Peregrine Falcon (4 March 2021)

What a nice soft, kind eye she has. I hope you have lots of great times together.


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## Baywonder (4 March 2021)

Oh she is absolutely gorgeous!


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## Quigleyandme (4 March 2021)

Lovely. My two youngsters have given me so much enjoyment.


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## LadyGascoyne (4 March 2021)

So lovely!


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## OldNag (4 March 2021)

Oooh how exciting. She's lovely.


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## Caol Ila (4 March 2021)

Stupid bureaucracy question. @Cortez and @shortstuff99, I'm doing paperwork for the BAPSH ownership transfer stuff, and it is asking me for "nationality." Does that mean the country where I live and where the horse lives, or my actual nationality, like my passport? Those are very different answers!


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## Cortez (4 March 2021)

Caol Ila said:



			Stupid bureaucracy question. @Cortez and @shortstuff99, I'm doing paperwork for the BAPSH ownership transfer stuff, and it is asking me for "nationality." Does that mean the country where I live and where the horse lives, or my actual nationality, like my passport? Those are very different answers!
		
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Passport; your nationality.


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## nikicb (4 March 2021)

She's lovely - a beautiful kind eye.  Looking forward to following your journey together.  Bay mares are simply the best in my opinion!  xx


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## shortstuff99 (4 March 2021)

Caol Ila said:



			Stupid bureaucracy question. @Cortez and @shortstuff99, I'm doing paperwork for the BAPSH ownership transfer stuff, and it is asking me for "nationality." Does that mean the country where I live and where the horse lives, or my actual nationality, like my passport? Those are very different answers!
		
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Lovely looking horse you've got there! I think it is your nationality as in passport.


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## Caol Ila (5 March 2021)

I felt bad leaving the barn tonight. Hermosa was so cuddly and sweet and nuzzling me and my friend, but box walked a bit when we walked away from her (at 8pm). I said to my friend, "If we get out of sight, hopefully she'll settle." But I wish I could have camped out in the barn. I'm sure she'll settle into livery yard life, but I need to take out lottery tickets or find a better paying job, because horses at home would be pretty awesome. At least the horses are only seven miles away. Gypsum was 30 miles away for years.


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## Caol Ila (5 March 2021)

Well, that went badly. I went to the yard early so I could turn out when there were only a few mares in the field and she could meet the herd in drips and drabs. She walked to the field pleasantly enough, but once I let her go, one of the four mares already in there aggressively chased her. Relentless, head snaking nastiness. Wouldn't let up. She pinned Hermosa against a fence, and Hermosa jumped the damned fence. I shat myself. She cleared it and jumped into an empty field that's currently being rested. It was clear that trying to catch her would scare her even more, and she was kind of fine in that field.  Grazing a bit, not panicked. I left her for a few hours, and then returned. Half an hour and a little bit of vague join-up technique later, I caught her. Thank God. She had a few testing baby moments but got into her stable fine and seemed more settled there than she had been yesterday. 

So, now what's the way forward? I honestly don't know. I'm terrified of putting her back into that field. That could have gone so much worse than it did. I mean, I know what I would like to do, but it's not totally up to me. In addition to the herd fields, they have lots of smaller paddocks, but they only like to have a tiny number of those in use at any one time. Before I bought Hermosa, YM told me they had no free spaces in those paddocks, and I thought the filly would be fine in the herd because she'd always been in a herd. I have never been so wrong. About anything. In a perfect world, I would turn her out in one of those paddocks with one or two quiet horses. For a while. But the yard doesn't seem keen on being that helpful. Unless they change their tune, I don't know what to do. 

Anyone know of any good youngstock livery north of Glasgow? *siiiigh*

But she can sure trot. She jumped the fence about a minute after I took this picture. The horse in the red rug is a nasty piece of work.


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## ycbm (5 March 2021)

Oh lord CI, its awful when the pleasure of  getting a new horse is ruined by that kind of worry and stress,  I feel so sad for you.

I had a horse who was utterly vile to any new one I brought in,  very dangerous.  It would take 4 or 5 days,  but he was always fine in the end.  I how you can sort something staged out for poor Hermosa.


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## Cortez (5 March 2021)

One at a time; always one at a time, until she can have at least one buddy to help her out. Mares are nasty, clannish beasts until they have worked out the herd order,.


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## littleshetland (5 March 2021)

She's extremely Hermosa!  Can you put her adjacent to the 'herd' for a few days?  she could meet them gradually over the fence? perhaps with an elderly, kindly pony while she gradually meets the others?


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## Cortez (5 March 2021)

littleshetland said:



			She's extremely Hermosa!  Can you put her adjacent to the 'herd' for a few days?  she could meet them gradually over the fence?
		
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Or even put a line of electric across the field until they have stopped making faces at her?


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## Caol Ila (5 March 2021)

Will she be able to function with adult mares at this point? Do I need to find her a more suitable herd?


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## littleshetland (5 March 2021)

Caol Ila said:



			Will she be able to function with adult mares at this point? Do I need to find her a more suitable herd?
		
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Ideally, I think putting her with one or two other youngsters would be good (once they've met 'over the fence' but if thats not possible, try and organise it so she goes out with some kinder companions?  as Cortez` says, perhaps some electric fencing to keep her seperated for a while , while everything settles down.


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## Meowy Catkin (5 March 2021)

Is the horse in the red rug the bottom of the herd? IME whoever is bottom of the herd will be vile to any newcomer for a short while to ensure that they are no longer at the bottom. If you then added another, the new bottom horse would be the vile one and the now 2nd from the bottom would be fine. It's just how it appears to work with equine social structure.

I'm so glad that she wasn't hurt. Thank goodness.

It would really help you if the YO would be flexible for two weeks or so, so that you can control the introductions carefully.


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## Caol Ila (5 March 2021)

All your suggestions are great. But I desperately need the backing of the staff/management for all of them, and they were not going out of their way to be helpful today. When I asked, "What should I do?" they suggested allowing her to buddy up with somebody. How? I said. Take her on in hand walks with someone, let them meet over stalls doors, they said.  Not really ideal. I'm feeling so frustrated and stressed, and I can't stop horses from chasing each other, or rearrange the field.


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## doodle (5 March 2021)

That’s is a very big ask of her. (Not criticising you, more the yard). To get to new yard and straight away asked to go in a big herd. Not surprisingly it went wrong. If yard are not helpful in solving the issue (could she go in the adjoining resting field for a couple of weeks?) then you don’t have much choice but to move.


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## Caol Ila (5 March 2021)

I'm thinly hoping that after the staff have slept on it and had their usual morning meeting (me looking very desperate in the middle of the day when they've got loads of things to do is probably not that useful) that they come up with some safer, more viable ideas. I _just_ need them to shift a bit on their 'no available paddock' hardline and a friendly horse, and it's totally solvable. Several liveries have offered friendly horses.


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## doodle (5 March 2021)

Fingers crossed. Surely if you have other liveries offering horses there shouldn’t be a problem.


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## Tiddlypom (5 March 2021)

Glad that she’s ok. Is it normal practice at that yard to put a new horse straight in with an established herd?

I hope that you find a resolution, but alarm bells are ringing, I’m afraid.


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## Caol Ila (5 March 2021)

Kamikaze said:



			Fingers crossed. Surely if you have other liveries offering horses there shouldn’t be a problem.
		
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One would think. But they are very protective of their ground. Surely horse welfare and safety is more important, but what do I know.



Tiddlypom said:



			Glad that she’s ok. Is it normal practice at that yard to put a new horse straight in with an established herd?

I hope that you find a resolution, but alarm bells are ringing, I’m afraid.
		
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A lot of people do what I attempted to do -- turn out the horse early so it meets the other horses slowly. But yeah, they do. So did my last yard. I was thinking it was a UK thing, to be honest, based on my tiny dataset. My barn in the US had "welcome pens" next to each herd pen and newbies spent about a week in the welcome before they were let loose in the herd. A much better system. Never seen that here.


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## doodle (5 March 2021)

.


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## PurBee (5 March 2021)

Id be asking also about using the rested area she jumped into for the other mares to get a chance to slowly accept her..its just for 1 horse, the field wont get ruined.

its amazing she jumped the fence...how tall was it?
...rather than just run from dominant horse her solution was to completely escape the scenario. Being young and being in a friendly herd before, evidently the dominant mare really surprised her.

if others are offering their friendly horse solo paddock to share, that would be preferable.

she looks beautiful!


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## windand rain (5 March 2021)

I always try to quarantine new arrivals for a week or two doesn't always happen as the last newby upset her new owner by destroying the wooden and electric fence that was there to protect her so she had the king pin pony as a field companion before taking time to add the others in one at a time, Bottom pony is still not in with them as she is a witch to the youngsters and might never make it into the herd. Fortunately the dartmoor is perfect he is top of the heap but he is quietly affirmative and is too lazy to chase


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## Caol Ila (5 March 2021)

PurBee said:



			Id be asking also about using the rested area she jumped into for the other mares to get a chance to slowly accept her..its just for 1 horse, the field wont get ruined.

its amazing she jumped the fence...how tall was it?
...rather than just run from dominant horse her solution was to completely escape the scenario. Being young and being in a friendly herd before, evidently the dominant mare really surprised her.

if others are offering their friendly horse solo paddock to share, that would be preferable.

she looks beautiful!
		
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When she was in the resting field, she went nowhere near the fenceline with the other mares. And that was the safest fence to jump. The others have a stone wall on the other side, and there is a long fenceline along a public road.

She was really scared.  Don't think she had ever been chased that viciously in her life. The herd at her breeder's yard was very chilled and once a horse was told off by a dominant horse, the discussion ended there. None this relentless chasing stuff. I'd forgotten how awful herd dynamics can be. Gypsum has been kept as a single or a pair because she spent years being that nasty horse who would chase things endlessly, and it was better for everyone's safety and sanity for her to not be in herds.


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## McFluff (5 March 2021)

Gosh, poor you and Hermosa (she’s stunning BTW). Our yard puts newbies in a field next to the herd and lets them meet over the fence. Usually a week then carefully into herd. But I’ve never seen any behave that badly. No wonder you’re shaken. Hopefully your yard will let you take advantage of one of the kind horse nannies.


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## Inda (5 March 2021)

I’m sorry. At least she’s ok after it. I don’t have any useful suggestion, as you know I gave up and put Carmin in with the geldings. Generally she and the other horses are mutually vile to each other.

She gets along ok with the dales and highlands, I don’t know if it’s based on phenotypes. At the stud hermosa came from the PREs didn’t want to interact with the other breeds, hugely irritating in the livery field.


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## Caol Ila (5 March 2021)

I am considering moving her somewhere more suitable if myself and yard staff/management can't reach an agreement and a plan on a safe way to get her turned out and socializing. I just can't have her being chased over fences. Or in a stable all the time. And some of the fences in that field are super dangerous. We were all lucky that she jumped the safest one.

I really don't want to put her through the stress of moving or me through the stress of having two horses in two places. But I'm looking at all options. Ugh. No idea where she would go, but there have got to be some sort of options out there.


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## atropa (5 March 2021)

It does seem to be, if not a UK thing, a Central Scotland thing to just fire new horses in to existing herds. I cant think of anywhere I've been that has done it really 'the right way', however I generally move with a pre existing herd of 3 mares so they are pretty set.
Afraid I can't think of anywhere particularly suitable for youngsters in the North Glasgow area, I know Easterton used to breed prior to changing hands.


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## LadyGascoyne (5 March 2021)

Caol Ila said:



			Will she be able to function with adult mares at this point? Do I need to find her a more suitable herd?
		
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She’s rising three, isn’t she? I think she’ll be absolutely fine with adult mares, I’d just try to find a more appropriate group or somewhere where you could introduce her more slowly.

Mimosa was the same age when we got her. We started in a field on her own, and I confess I did spend most of the day with her. After about a week, we introduced her to two old, quiet mares. It was perfectly amicable and easy for about a month but she became bored with them and they were not sound enough to play with her so she went out with the boys - and loved it.

Would your yard let you fence off a portion of the field with electric fencing temporarily?


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## SatansLittleHelper (6 March 2021)

She's gorgeous,  what a shame she's being bullied. I hope you get the situation sorted ASAP x


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## Lyle (6 March 2021)

She can move! Is there anyway you can set up an electric pen in the field? So she can spend a week or two meeting the mob over the fence? Is there a chance you could introduce her to the agro mare in an arena, with Hermosa loose and the mare on a lead? Give her a chance to meet and greet all the horses first? 
 Mares are totally odd. I had a mare who was obviously having a slight hormonal episode (she'd just gone in foal) I returned her paddock buddy to the paddock after having her out for a few hours, and the in foal mare whent ballistic, like you experienced, head down flat stick galloping and chasing. Was very scary, I eventually lured the one being chased through a gate-way and locked the preggo one on her own! She's totally fine now, I just introduced another (older) mare who hung out in the yard next to her for a few weeks. Apart from one rather unsightly little kicking match, they pretty much got down to eating straight away.


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## babymare (6 March 2021)

She is beautiful. Such a sweet face 😍😍


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## Meowy Catkin (6 March 2021)

Flippin' heck the yard staff are being so unhelpful! Other owners are offering to lend horses but they won't provide a safe space.  

Can you electric tape off a paddock inside the mare field? 

When I got my gelding I had a paddock split in two for about two weeks with the youngster and companion one side and the rest the other side. It really wasn't a big deal and when the fence came down the horses hardly noticed that it had gone. 

The yard has a duty of care, they need to take this seriously!


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## Caol Ila (6 March 2021)

I've messaged the manager about having a sit-down meeting to spitball options. Maybe we can come to a resolution. I don't know, but I did point out that if she jumped the wrong fence, she could end up on a public road. The impression they gave me yesterday was that I made a decision to bring a baby to the yard; it was my fault and my problem to solve, not theirs. Maybe it was stupid, but here we are now. I have had youngsters before and never had this drama -- but it was a different horse, a different herd (mixed adults!), different introduction process, so I genuinely thought it would be fine. 

I don't think their introduction system works very well. I know of two adult mares who had to be on a month of box rest within days of moving to the yard. Horses will be horses and do stupid things, but that's not great.


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## ITPersonnage (6 March 2021)

Just to say how sorry I am that her new "home" doesn't seem very open to her needs, not what you were expecting at all  Horrified to hear their response to be honest, I bet they were feeling defensive because of the situation but it never helps.


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## CanteringCarrot (6 March 2021)

That's a difficult situation, but I think you're going about it in the best way. See if the existing yard can accommodate, if not, then move. You're a bit flexible with a youngster at the moment since you don't really need a school and are looking for (I assume) a field mostly. Of course you'll want more facilities later on for her, but at the moment I think you can get by with something basic.

You could inquire at local studs to see if they have anything available. Sometimes they have small herds of youngsters. 

Either way, I hope you can figure something out for her. Poor girl. I think the situation she was put into would've only worked out of sheer luck. It's not the best method, but I've seen less thought out herd introductions go ok.


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## Tiddlypom (6 March 2021)

Can you livery her back at the stud where you bought her from while you figure out a long term plan?


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## Meowy Catkin (6 March 2021)

Just read your edit. 

It sounds like they are totally inflexible. Two horses have needed box rest, yours has been chased out of the field and they still think that chucking the new horse in is fine!

Well if anything shows that the fault lies with them rather than you for getting a youngster it is those two injured horses. You aren't asking for the world, just sensible, controlled introductions of a new horse to the herd. OK, they need to change things slightly for what... a fortnight or so? 

I'm furious on your behalf.


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## CanteringCarrot (6 March 2021)

Honestly, this could've happened with mare of any age, IMO. Her being a youngster is somewhat irrelevant. The yard should be able to accommodate, but I've also seen some yards have a gelding herd and a mare herd, if it doesn't go well, then you're SOL, those are your options. So if they really choose that "this is what we offer and that's it" then the choice is clear...but still no simple task.


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## Caol Ila (6 March 2021)

CanteringCarrot said:



			That's a difficult situation, but I think you're going about it in the best way. See if the existing yard can accommodate, if not, then move. You're a bit flexible with a youngster at the moment since you don't really need a school and are looking for (I assume) a field mostly. Of course you'll want more facilities later on for her, but at the moment I think you can get by with something basic.

You could inquire at local studs to see if they have anything available. Sometimes they have small herds of youngsters.

Either way, I hope you can figure something out for her. Poor girl. I think the situation she was put into would've only worked out of sheer luck. It's not the best method, but I've seen less thought out herd introductions go ok.
		
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Yeah, I would be happy with grass livery so long as there was a place I could take her to do some ground work. I can't find any nearby studs on a Google search, but maybe there's something small and not on Google?



Tiddlypom said:



			Can you livery her back at the stud where you bought her from while you figure out a long term plan?
		
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Yes -- that's my option C (A being make a plan with current yard, and B being move her somewhere nearby).


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## CanteringCarrot (6 March 2021)

Caol Ila said:



			Yeah, I would be happy with grass livery so long as there was a place I could take her to do some ground work. I can't find any nearby studs on a Google search, but maybe there's something small and not on Google?
		
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That's the hard part, some stuff isn't advertised or easily searchable. This happened to me when I first came to Germany. You sort of have to be "in the know" or ask seasoned locals.

I even searched around Google Maps in my area for anything that looked like stable. I could then drive by and see or stop in and inquire. Sort of creepy but eh. Fortunately I found a place so I didn't have to do that.


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## Caol Ila (6 March 2021)

In good news, Hermosa was very settled in her stable this morning. OH mucked out (he's getting skills he never thought he have) while I led her around the yard. We're working on backing up out of my space, as she likes to push her shoulder into me when she's a bit worried about something. She was concerned/curious about a mounting block, so we went up to it and I tapped it and climbed onto it. She took a step back and eyeballed this, and then calmly came forward again. She's not a fly backwards panic first kind of girl (unless she's really scared and being chased). 

I'm just super stressed and feel knackered.


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## littleshetland (6 March 2021)

Caol Ila said:



			In good news, Hermosa was very settled in her stable this morning. OH mucked out (he's getting skills he never thought he have) while I led her around the yard. We're working on backing up out of my space, as she likes to push her shoulder into me when she's a bit worried about something. She was concerned/curious about a mounting block, so we went up to it and I tapped it and climbed onto it. She took a step back and eyeballed this, and then calmly came forward again. She's not a fly backwards panic first kind of girl (unless she's really scared and being chased).

I'm just super stressed and feel knackered.
		
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Aaah bless you!  I’m sure it’ll all pan out.  Keep positive... it’ll all be worth it in the end.


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## Wishfilly (6 March 2021)

This sounds really stressful and I'm sorry this is happening. It's clear the introduction systems don't work if two horses have had to go on box rest. Could you point out that the yard would have some level of liability if she jumped out onto a public road and caused an accident?

Sounds like you were able to do some productive work with her this morning, and I hope you're able to come up with a good solution for her!


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## Zuzan (6 March 2021)

Caol Ila said:



			In good news, Hermosa was very settled in her stable this morning. OH mucked out (he's getting skills he never thought he have) while I led her around the yard. We're working on backing up out of my space, as she likes to push her shoulder into me when she's a bit worried about something. She was concerned/curious about a mounting block, so we went up to it and I tapped it and climbed onto it. She took a step back and eyeballed this, and then calmly came forward again. She's not a fly backwards panic first kind of girl (unless she's really scared and being chased).

I'm just super stressed and feel knackered.
		
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I feel your pain.. I remember the stresses of young horse..  your livery doesn't sound ideal...  When mine was a baby (2 yo) until N was about 5 I kept her on a local farm with owners 2.. her riding mare and retired highland gelding.   

We did the intro's over a fence first so pretty much what Hermosa did for herself ..   Once my friend's mare accepted mine it was utterly trouble free .. so a small local herd set up for me and N worked really well..  ground work was done on the farm yard, on the farm track and later on the lane .. we did a couple of boot camps with a local trainer who was handily married to a farrier who did the hoof handling training as N was like Hermosa pretty much unhandled when I got her.   The training we did was pretty much NH type stuff.. sacking out.. throwing rugs around, spook busting a bit of clicker / target training etc.   

I would be looking for a similar set up with a youngster somewhere low key but with enough going on to be able to desensitise to other horses coming and going a bit etc.

Hope this helps thoughts with your both.


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## Caol Ila (6 March 2021)

Zuzan said:



			I feel your pain.. I remember the stresses of young horse..  your livery doesn't sound ideal...  When mine was a baby (2 yo) until N was about 5 I kept her on a local farm with owners 2.. her riding mare and retired highland gelding.  

We did the intro's over a fence first so pretty much what Hermosa did for herself ..   Once my friend's mare accepted mine it was utterly trouble free .. so a small local herd set up for me and N worked really well..  ground work was done on the farm yard, on the farm track and later on the lane .. we did a couple of boot camps with a local trainer who was handily married to a farrier who did the hoof handling training as N was like Hermosa pretty much unhandled when I got her.   The training we did was pretty much NH type stuff.. sacking out.. throwing rugs around, spook busting a bit of clicker / target training etc.  

I would be looking for a similar set up with a youngster somewhere low key but with enough going on to be able to desensitise to other horses coming and going a bit etc.

Hope this helps thoughts with your both.
		
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That would be a perfect set-up for her. But how do I even go about finding such a place? These obviously don't exist on the internet.


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## Caol Ila (6 March 2021)

I'm spiralling into regretting life choices. Why did I buy this horse and not an older one, even if I had to do it sight unseen? I feel really stupid, like lockdown has made my brain malfunction. I really thought I could manage a two-year old. 

Meeting with yard manager at 4:30. Guess that'll be the come to Jesus moment. I could always try tears.


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## blodwyn1 (6 March 2021)

Can you swap gypsum and Hermosa turnout arrangements?


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## Caol Ila (6 March 2021)

No, because Gypsum has a field buddy, and Gypsum can't be in herds because she's the one who chases horses over fences. And having her run around in a strange herd with her age and arthritis is just asking for trouble.


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## spookypony (6 March 2021)

Aww, I'm so sad to hear how stressed you are about the situation. Try to keep in mind that between you and the wee mare, all is well just now and she worked well with you and seems sweet. The unhelpfulness of the yard is no personal reflection on your abilities to handle a young horse. 

As to what to try: would the YM be amenable to your building an electric corral in a corner of the same field (can be as simple as just taping off a corner with a straight line)? I'd use a double fence to be safe; just make sure it has enough zap to keep the bullies out until they have a while to sort out their horse politics.

If moving yards seems like a better idea, maybe a smaller private yard would be a nicer environment, and you could take both of yours...Could you PM me the approximate area you are looking?


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## planete (6 March 2021)

Have you looked on the local Facebook horsey groups?  You could even ask whether somebody has somewhere suitable.  I spent a few weeks with just a stable and a 3 year old once.  I used to take him out twice a day for a couple of hours in hand and walk and graze him anywhere around the area until I found him suitable turnout.  Not ideal, but we both survived in one piece and as a bonus he was dead easy to back and ride away later.  i am aware this may not be possible for you if you are working.  Sorry I wish I could help, I know I would be tearing my hair out in your situation.


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## DabDab (6 March 2021)

This could easily have happened with an older horse too, don't be hard on yourself. 

If the yard keep on with their current line with this then they are being unreasonable and that isn't on you, it's just how they have decided to be for whatever reason. There will be a solution

Good luck with the yo later


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## Zuzan (6 March 2021)

Caol Ila said:



			I'm spiralling into regretting life choices. Why did I buy this horse and not an older one, even if I had to do it sight unseen? I feel really stupid, like lockdown has made my brain malfunction. I really thought I could manage a two-year old. 

Meeting with yard manager at 4:30. Guess that'll be the come to Jesus moment. I could always try tears.
		
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Don't do that .. you will find a way through this with Hermosa..  I went thro some challenges with N but 16 yrs on from the unhandled 2yo arriving in the remote N Highlands I have the horse of a lifetime and am so pleased I managed to get thro those challenges..

Re finding a suitable set up .. take some time to look at maps and drive around looking for likely setups .. connect and network as far and wide as you can .. this isn't an internet search other than looking at maps for areas that would work.. quite lanes etc .. is it worth finding your local riding club as many members of our local RC are horses at home or livery at someone elses home .. there are virtually no yards near me .. apart from a couple of big very regimental ones that are a bit of nightmare..   maybe talk to Hermosa's breeders as they may have some ideas / connections.. stick with it.  In the meantime both your safety is paramount..  hope the yard meeting goes as well as possible.


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## Caol Ila (6 March 2021)

What were those challenges, Zuzan?

Yeah, DabDab, logically, I know that many an older horse has run through or over a fence. But I'm feeling overwhelmed and out of my depth.

But hey, she can jump. Don't have to free jump her now to know she can hop four foot. Not that I ever wanted to do that.


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## ITPersonnage (6 March 2021)

Long shot but might it be an idea to try your older mare's field - a corner separated off with electric fence ? If she and your older mare could work it out (and you will never know till you try) that could be a game changer for the whole thing ? Don't lose heart, you've made a good choice and this could just turn into a soon forgotten blip...


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## Caol Ila (6 March 2021)

I can't wait for this to be a funny story rather than a source of me melting down.

That isn't a bad idea. Gypsum and her buddy are only out two ours per day at the moment, which isn't ideal. But it would be a lot better than nothing.

Edit: OH pointed out that the field isn't just used for Gypsum and her field mate. Other horses are rotated throughout the day. So it would need to be uncornered every day. Those particular paddocks are not very big.


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## spookypony (6 March 2021)

Caol Ila said:



			Edit: OH pointed out that the field isn't just used for Gypsum and her field mate. Other horses are rotated throughout the day. So it would need to be uncornered every day. Those particular paddocks are not very big.
		
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That would be easily done: get a piece of tape with one of those gate handle hooks at either end. Then you don't even need to turn the fence off to attach the length of tape. Just slip it into a few posts first, and then hook the handles to the main fence: done!


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## littleshetland (6 March 2021)

Surely the yard owner can't object to a small part of the field being fenced while the youngster settles in? or the rested paddock being used for just a few days?  Hope your meeting later goes well.....you could try bursting into tears or getting them in a head lock until they give in to your demands (humour!)


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## DressageCob (6 March 2021)

I'm surprised you didn't have to quarantine a new horse. It's a big ask, arriving one day and then very swiftly out into an established herd. I've always been told you turn out with one other and then gradually introduce the others so they aren't overwhelmed. 

I'm glad nobody posts my horses on forums calling them a "nasty piece of work" too. Horses are horses. They have herd dynamics. It's for the humans to control the situation so that it is safe for all of the horses. It sounds like your yard set you up to fail there. 

The same herd with a gradual introduction may be possible, but I would feel quite uneasy knowing that she can jump out if troubled. Hopefully she won't do that again. But if the yard isn't being helpful then I would go elsewhere. I don't think her age is a factor here; it's not that she did silly baby things. Any submissive horse could have been chased in the same way. 

She certainly lives up to her name. Lovely head and that's a flashy trot she's got. I hope you find a good solution for her.


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## abb123 (6 March 2021)

Can you find out when the horses come in/out and see if you can put yours out when most have either come in or still in their stables? an introduction with far fewer horses might out be less stressful. Could yo arrange to go down super early and get her out with one of the friendly horses that has been offered up and then bring her in before the others go out?


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## Caol Ila (6 March 2021)

Feeling very defeated and exhausted. Gradual one-by-one introduction is not possible because the staff don't have time. They'll put like ten in the field in one go. Sectioning off any section of any paddock is not possible. Don't have enough grass. Putting her out with some shetlands that have babysat youngsters in the past is not possible (youngster in question belonged to now-ex yard manager). They don't mix livery horses with school horses. Putting her in one of the existing paddocks is not possible. Again, with the grass. 

Wish I'd got the wee gelding, in a way. He would have gone into one of the gelding fields with less drama.


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## Wishfilly (6 March 2021)

So, presumably they'll pay your vets bills if she gets injured? (I know you obviously won't risk this, but it feels like they are being very unreasonable).

Will the situation get any better as the ground improves into summer?

I would put out a wanted ad on facebook, looking for private livery yards. Look for local groups- there's a couple where people post advertising or looking for livery in my area.


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## Caol Ila (6 March 2021)

Yeah, they said the paddock situation might improve in the summer, but that doesn't solve my problem now.


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## be positive (6 March 2021)

Without wanting to state the obvious why did they agree to taking in a youngster at livery if they are not prepared to even consider giving her a chance to settle in, as a former YO I am furious on your behalf as if I knew a new horse was coming in I was always half expecting to have to make some changes/ compromises until I had got to know it, this is a bad time of year to bring in a new one possibly the worst time to introduce an extra one into a herd which any sensible YO should know and have either refused to take her in or be prepared to get involved with making it work. 
It will be about the money but with their attitude I am surprised they have not yet had a serious injury, you do seem to be unlucky as your other mare is presumably settled there which has been an issue in the past, you don't deserve this


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## Caol Ila (6 March 2021)

They asked me to guarantee that she would be okay in the mare herd because they had no paddocks available. I agreed to this, but I couldn't 100% guarantee anything with a horse *I* didn't even know. If it's one you've had for a while, you can predict what it might do, but if it's one you just bought, you will have no idea.

There have been some injuries.


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## blodwyn1 (6 March 2021)

And you are paying for this lack of service??


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## be positive (6 March 2021)

Caol Ila said:



			They asked me to guarantee that she would be okay in the mare herd because they had no paddocks available. I agreed to this, but I couldn't 100% guarantee anything with a horse *I* didn't even know. If it's one you've had for a while, you can predict what it might do, but if it's one you just bought, you will have no idea.

There have been some injuries.
		
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That was not the most sensible thing to agree to with a youngster that has never been away from where she was born but equally that was a ridiculous thing to ask of any owner, I have known even the nicest horses turn on another, sometimes even when they have been together for some time, so to ask for guarantees of any sort is stupid, shows no empathy or horses sense and makes me wonder whether they are in the right business.

They should always have a spare paddock, quarantine being just one reason, I had a sick pony earlier this year and the vet wanted him kept away from my other until we could rule out, or in, something infectious, it was something I was not really prepared for but quickly sorted just as I did when I had a livery yard,  even if it is inconvenient the horses come first.


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## Caol Ila (6 March 2021)

Yeah, I know I should not have agreed to that but when you get a space, you just nod and find yourself going along with it. And I'm not that switched onto herd dynamics anymore because Gypsum has been out of herds for a very long time, (she would chase things through fences) so I didn't really foresee this. Someone who had a horse going in and out of herds might have made a better decision.

The manager is not horsey. This does not help.


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## ycbm (6 March 2021)

I can't help in the slightest CE but I am gutted for you that you've been brought to a point of doubting whether the *beautiful* filly you've bought is the right horse by a yard owner's total incompetence


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## Meowy Catkin (6 March 2021)

ycbm said:



			I can't help in the slightest CE but I am gutted for you that you've been brought to a point of doubting whether the *beautiful* filly you've bought is the right horse by a yard owner's total incompetence 

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This 100%.


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## spookypony (6 March 2021)

The filly is not wrong. She's gorgeous, and sounds super sweet. The situation is wrong. And that can be solved, hopefully within a few days. In a few months, these early days will hopefully be an ever-retreating memory, as you are enjoying the development of your lovely filly! I confess I don't understand why the YM won't let you section off a corner (and pop in a hay net or two, of there's not enough grass). What on earth would they do if a horse needed corral rest, or separation from the others for any other reason? Sounds like they knew they were overstocking when they asked you to make that silly guarantee!


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## Wishfilly (6 March 2021)

Caol Ila said:



			Yeah, they said the paddock situation might improve in the summer, but that doesn't solve my problem now.
		
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Only thinking in terms of whether you're looking for something short term, or if you move longer term? It might be possible to make compromises in terms of distance/facilities if it was only a move for a few months.


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## wills_91 (6 March 2021)

Where abouts are you based and how close would you be looking - I know you said North Glasgow for yard but I'm terrible and a rough area your looking at would be more helpful 😂 Do you need yard that can provide services or would you be happy with DIY only, year round turnout, school etc? I am a born and bred Weegie - although no longer live there - I have horsey friends up there who could may know of somewhere suitable.


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## LadyGascoyne (6 March 2021)

If you were closer, I’d have a stable ready for her in ten minutes. I’m really sorry you’re going through this.

Unfortunately I am hundreds of miles in the wrong direction!


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## Caol Ila (6 March 2021)

I just need someone like LadyGascoyne, but here! That would be perfect.

@wills_91, My other horse is in Milngavie. So I don't go totally mad, the filly needs to be as near to Milngavie as possible. She would be fine with grass livery (provided the company was suitable). If they're stabled, it really has to be assisted livery, with the possibility of full here and there when I have to be out of town. Not an issue with lockdown (so for the next two months) but will be one afterwards.


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## spookypony (6 March 2021)

So a private person who maybe has their own horses at home at grass, and has space for one extra, would possibly be ideal? I'll keep asking around!


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## Caol Ila (6 March 2021)

Yeah, that sort of situation. Ever since I moved to the UK, I keep running into trouble with commercial yards, which are incapable of adapting management to my horses. Is this a British thing? I feel like a magnet for this sh1t at the moment.


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## EventingMum (6 March 2021)

I was sure the yard manager there was horsey although I had heard the owners weren't? Not that it matters. Have you tried other yards in the area as there are quite a few although I don't know how they'd be set up for a youngster? Another option would perhaps be to approach some studs that may have youngstock herds, they may not be so close but if they were keeping an eye on her would you have to go every day? Obviously, once you start to do more you'd need to reassess the situation. Maybe put a question on some Facebook pages and see if you get some answers.


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## Caol Ila (6 March 2021)

The horsey yard manager gave up being a yard manager about a month ago (maybe two?). Now the buck stops with the owners, who are not horsey, but making all decisions. When I moved G there, horsey yard manager assured me that they would do whatever was necessary to accommodate her needs. But this is clearly not the line anymore since she's left.


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## milliepops (6 March 2021)

Caol Ila said:



			Yeah, that sort of situation. Ever since I moved to the UK, I keep running into trouble with commercial yards, which are incapable of adapting management to my horses. Is this a British thing? I feel like a magnet for this sh1t at the moment.
		
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Have only ever kept horses in Britain so nothing to compare it to, but I have been on a lot of yards over the years and I don't think it's unusual for yards here to have a particular offering which you either accept or don't,  as a client. 

I can't think of any livery yard in my area that I'd take a young horse to until it was literally ready to back 🤔 none would be accommodating enough, I've struggled plenty finding something suited to my needy adult horse!

Hope you can find something suitable ASAP.   Local FB plea sounds like possibly the best option.


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## EventingMum (6 March 2021)

Caol Ila said:



			The horsey yard manager gave up being a yard manager about a month ago (maybe two?). Now the buck stops with the owners, who are not horsey, but making all decisions. When I moved G there, horsey yard manager assured me that they would do whatever was necessary to accommodate her needs. But this is clearly not the line anymore since she's left.
		
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Oh dear, the previous tenant used to breed IDs and isn't too far away, would it be worth seeing what her set up is now? I don't know if she still has youngstock or what her facilities are like but might be worth asking.


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## Caol Ila (6 March 2021)

Following up on that. One of my yard friends is still pals with her, so I've reached out to him. 

Why do I wish I'd bought the colt? He was nice too, but had sweet itch. Maybe that was a stupid reason to not look closely at a horse.


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## milliepops (6 March 2021)

If they do introductions to a gelding herd in the same way then there's no reason to think that would have worked any better, tbh. It's a big ask for any horse to join an established herd.  One of mine was chased through a fence by a gelding 😒


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## Caol Ila (6 March 2021)

It's not just mares that can be nasty? Everyone at the yard is saying, "Well, that's just mares, isn't it?"


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## shortstuff99 (6 March 2021)

Caol Ila said:



			It's not just mares that can be nasty? Everyone at the yard is saying, "Well, that's just mares, isn't it?"
		
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No, there is a gelding I know who has to live on his own as he picks any other horses up by the neck and shakes them!

It has been their poor introductions that has caused this. It can be so stressful when everything seems to be going wrong. Internet hugs for you.


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## ester (6 March 2021)

no! friends yearling gelding got chased into a hedge and poked his eye with a blackthorn as a result.


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## spookypony (6 March 2021)

When my young pony mare arrived 2 years ago, it was the Spooky Pony, who is normally an utter gentleman, that tried to kick her ears off her head (after they had been in separate paddocks for about a week). The Ballerina Mare just ran along snorting and bucking because it was all so exciting. Fortunately, the field is roomy, and they all settled down after a short while! Now, they're all the best of friends, as long as the buckets are distributed in the correct order.


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## Zuzan (6 March 2021)

Caol Ila said:



			I just need someone like LadyGascoyne, but here! That would be perfect.

@wills_91, My other horse is in Milngavie. So I don't go totally mad, the filly needs to be as near to Milngavie as possible. She would be fine with grass livery (provided the company was suitable). If they're stabled, it really has to be assisted livery, with the possibility of full here and there when I have to be out of town. Not an issue with lockdown (so for the next two months) but will be one afterwards.
		
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I know a yard which is probably too far / wrong side of the Clyde but it had decent land and facilities .. seemed to manage horses pretty competently .. at Kilmacolm .. just outside think it was called Gryfeside ..


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## be positive (7 March 2021)

Caol Ila said:



			It's not just mares that can be nasty? Everyone at the yard is saying, "Well, that's just mares, isn't it?"
		
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A friend recently brought a pony mare back home, it was in a paddock adjoining the rest of the herd but decided to go under the fence to join them, one of the geldings took a dislike to her being with them and ran her round for some time before she finally managed to get out,  they had been together a few years ago but he has new friends now and apparently was really nasty, I have also seen a gelding turn on another gelding, in that case it was because there was a mare that he wanted to himself.

It is why as a YO it is so important to be careful with introductions and herd dynamics and why so many yards take the easy option of having individual turnout  because that requires much less effort and the risk of injury is lower.


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## DabDab (7 March 2021)

Caol Ila said:



			It's not just mares that can be nasty? Everyone at the yard is saying, "Well, that's just mares, isn't it?"
		
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Nah, my gelding is a thug. Doesn't kick or chase fortunately, but he does play very rough and resource guards with teeth, charging and flying front legs. He was turned out alone when younger and on a proper livery yard. Whereas my mares are very easy (which is good, they just stay out of his lordship's way)

YO sounds particularly unhelpful . What a rubbishy situation when you should be enjoying your new horse. Hope you can find a solution


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## CanteringCarrot (7 March 2021)

Not just mares. My gelding was relentlessly chased and ran through a fence by a gelding introduced to the herd. The owners were idiots and insisted that my horse (who was literally grazing with a friend in a herd that previously had no issues) caused their horse to chase him and had some weird chip on their shoulder toward me until they left (for other reasons). Sometimes it just doesn't work. Fortunately that yard had many other options. 

Friend does have a mare that she keeps alone as she has to be shod behind and kicks the ever living crap out of anyone in her space.

Our bigger mare herd is actually very quiet. There are also two mares living together in the same stable (share a large box) and paddock that get along.

Totally horse dependent. 

Sweet itch is a huge headache IMO, and I would've went for the mare over the gelding too. If I have a horse that developed sweet itch, whatever, but I'd not buy one on purpose, I don't think.


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## Lipglosspukka (7 March 2021)

This yard sounds completely unreasonable! 

Stop stressing. Get in your car and drive round the area. Stop and ask everywhere. You will find somewhere more suitable.


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## ycbm (7 March 2021)

Caol Ila said:



			It's not just mares that can be nasty? Everyone at the yard is saying, "Well, that's just mares, isn't it?"
		
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Absolutely not!   My most vicious horse was a sweet natured cob until you put a new horse in the herd.  The only other ones I've met are also geldings and all 3 have to be kept separate from other horses. 

And I wouldn't take a horse with sweet itch if you paid me.  
.


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## atropa (7 March 2021)

OP if push really comes to shove, my last yard would very likely help you out with youngstock livery in a mixed herd including other youngsters. It is 40 miles away along the M8 but would do full livery.


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## Slightlyconfused (7 March 2021)

Caol Ila said:



			It's not just mares that can be nasty? Everyone at the yard is saying, "Well, that's just mares, isn't it?"
		
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My gelding is an arse to be polite. 

He is in with my other boy and that's it because he chases new horses round and round the feild till they are exhausted and then will refuse to let the owners get them out of the feild once he decides they are "his"

So it's not just mares.


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## Caol Ila (7 March 2021)

Between myself and the filly, the filly is coping better. She is proving to be a tough, adaptable little horse. I have a few options so far. One is going back to her breeder's yard; two is going to a field somewhere in Milngavie where there would be no facilities; three is a yard about 18 miles away where my friend has her horse, and the YO said she's happy to take a youngster.


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## laura_nash (7 March 2021)

Caol Ila said:



			It's not just mares that can be nasty? Everyone at the yard is saying, "Well, that's just mares, isn't it?"
		
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I have a sweet natured old cob gelding.  Over the years he's been in with different horses and as long as there is enough to eat he's lovely with them.  I used to offer him as company for visiting summer liveries at a previous yard.  When our new mare arrived she was in next to him and jumped the fence over night, next morning they were happily grooming.

A couple of years ago a shetland colt escaped from a neighbour and got in with him and his pony companion.  My cob totally went for him!  Beat him up and thrashed him around the field.  It totally took me by surprise.  Very lucky he escaped uninjured, probably helped that my cob is barefoot.


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## Caol Ila (7 March 2021)

Just feel so bummed. I had been so looking forward to having the mare at this yard, because the liveries and facilities are really good, and my yard friends are so supportive.  But even with an older horse, I don't know how to safely introduce it to their herds now, given that neither management nor staff have at any point enabled a systematic, safe (or as safe as possible) protocol for doing so, or suggested that there even is one.


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## Flame_ (7 March 2021)

Safe, well managed, regular turnout has to be the top priority of most horse owners and where most yards fall short.

"Yes, lovely that you have 3 arenas, a washbox, a solarium, a walker, a cross country course, etc. Can my horse go in a field every day and stay in one piece?"

Get looking. This is why I'm on a little yard with no school virtually on my own! Your filly is lovely and all will be OK when you find the right place.


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## Berpisc (7 March 2021)

I think the yard owners have let you down. Regardless of age/sex herd dynamics are very important for horse welfare and even if you were not as aware of this as ideal they should have been froma good practice point of view and been more helpful. 
She looks lovely, don't regret buying her, it does sound as if you have some solutions for now and things will work out.


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## Reacher (7 March 2021)

The YO sounds very unhelpful. Sorry you are having this headache and are again on the looking for a new yard treadmill. Hope that by word of mouth you find something suitable - maybe somewhere that would take both filly and Gypsum


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## PurBee (7 March 2021)

Caol Ila said:



			Following up on that. One of my yard friends is still pals with her, so I've reached out to him.

Why do I wish I'd bought the colt? He was nice too, but had sweet itch. Maybe that was a stupid reason to not look closely at a horse.
		
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My young colt was with a mixed small herd for a while, being bullied to the lowest herd position, which actually made him aggressive to handle when he returned to me. ...so gender isnt a guarantee of not being bullied by the elders.

IF the herd are used to having bolshy youngsters around they are mature enough not to chase them on intro’s, it seems like your yard herds arent this type of herd.

i cant believe how unhelpful theyre being. As stated already, what if suddenly a horse needs quarantining for whatever reason? A yard usually is aware of this and makes allowances. 
But if the owners arent horsey, theyll have no idea or relate to these situations at all...i really feel for you.

”dont have time” to deal with your horse? Youre friggin paying them, so some of their time should absolutely be dedicated to aiding your horses needs. 
To ask you to ensure unknown horse would be ok with the mare herd just goes to show their ignorance of horses. Any horse might be, or might not be, regardless of age.

Put another thread on here of specific area youre looking, for anyone for space for one horse with need initially for small paddock. 
If i had home horses near you with small spare paddock space, i’d be willing, even if not my normal set-up to offer livery. worth a shot. 
Fingers firmly crossed a small paddock and stable near you becomes available very very soon!


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## Midlifecrisis (7 March 2021)

Caol ila..really sorry to read this your stress drips from each post. Try an ad on the central Scotland livery yard Facebook page to see if it turns up anything.


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## Caol Ila (7 March 2021)

Turned her loose in the indoor tonight, but all she wanted to do was follow me. She's fed up with being in her stable, though. I need to fix this, like yesterday. 

The more I think about it, the more upset I get that *no one* who works at the yard made the slightest effort to help me or show much empathy after she jumped the fence. OH and I caught her ourselves -- didn't need help with that -- but I asked a few staff, what should I do now? How do we fix this? And I got nothing. Basically, I agreed to put the horse into the mare's field, and that's the end of it. The risk is all mine.



Midlifecrisis said:



			Caol ila..really sorry to read this your stress drips from each post. Try an ad on the central Scotland livery yard Facebook page to see if it turns up anything.
		
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OH already has. I didn't want to do it myself because I didn't want aggravation from people who I know are on that page.


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## Midlifecrisis (7 March 2021)

Ah..ok. I ll have a really good think about somewhere...I think Blair’s Farm near Larbert offers a young stock herd/grass type livery but of course it’s not on your doorstep.


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## PapaverFollis (7 March 2021)

Any yard I've been on with a "just chuck them out" policy of introducing new horses to each other, especially in established herd groups, it has ended badly for someone regardless of the sexes or ages of the horses.  It's just not a safe way to do things.  

I'm sorry you're having this stress when you should be concentrating on enjoying your lovely new girl.  I hope you can get something sorted for her.


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## the_sophies (7 March 2021)

http://www.milndaviefarm.co.uk/

Don't know what its like now, I was here as a kid when Marjorie Mcnicol had it, there was always plenty of turnout. Just outside Strathblane


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## Roasted Chestnuts (7 March 2021)

Caol Ila said:



			Well, that went badly. I went to the yard early so I could turn out when there were only a few mares in the field and she could meet the herd in drips and drabs. She walked to the field pleasantly enough, but once I let her go, one of the four mares already in there aggressively chased her. Relentless, head snaking nastiness. Wouldn't let up. She pinned Hermosa against a fence, and Hermosa jumped the damned fence. I shat myself. She cleared it and jumped into an empty field that's currently being rested. It was clear that trying to catch her would scare her even more, and she was kind of fine in that field.  Grazing a bit, not panicked. I left her for a few hours, and then returned. Half an hour and a little bit of vague join-up technique later, I caught her. Thank God. She had a few testing baby moments but got into her stable fine and seemed more settled there than she had been yesterday.

So, now what's the way forward? I honestly don't know. I'm terrified of putting her back into that field. That could have gone so much worse than it did. I mean, I know what I would like to do, but it's not totally up to me. In addition to the herd fields, they have lots of smaller paddocks, but they only like to have a tiny number of those in use at any one time. Before I bought Hermosa, YM told me they had no free spaces in those paddocks, and I thought the filly would be fine in the herd because she'd always been in a herd. I have never been so wrong. About anything. In a perfect world, I would turn her out in one of those paddocks with one or two quiet horses. For a while. But the yard doesn't seem keen on being that helpful. Unless they change their tune, I don't know what to do.

Anyone know of any good youngstock livery north of Glasgow? *siiiigh*

But she can sure trot. She jumped the fence about a minute after I took this picture. The horse in the red rug is a nasty piece of work.

View attachment 67236

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Kia chased Faran for the first two days that they were in together then He grudgingly accepted him as long as he didn’t go near his mare fence line. He chased him and he jumped the fence. I had to put Faran in quarantine for three weeks so it was Kia for company or nothing.

Putting youngsters in with an established herd is worrying, you would be better introducing to one then another then another. I’ve had to do it this winter again so Faran can go in with the big boys when his buddy is away, it was worrying as he’s prone to jumping fences when scared. He hasn’t and has even established that he’s not bottom of the herd.

Here is a video of one of the chasing episodes. Thank god Kia wasn’t as fast as he used to be nor as agile


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## Caol Ila (8 March 2021)

Unless some amazing private stable pops up locally, she might be going to a place 20 miles away. Ugh. I am telling myself that it is very temporary -- once she has the skills to function at current yard, she will come back. I know the yard has some issues, but I've done the rounds locally and everything else is worse.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (9 March 2021)

Caol Ila said:



			Unless some amazing private stable pops up locally, she might be going to a place 20 miles away. Ugh. I am telling myself that it is very temporary -- once she has the skills to function at current yard, she will come back. I know the yard has some issues, but I've done the rounds locally and everything else is worse. 

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Speak to the mare owners and ask if you can put them in the school together one at a time for some supervised meetings. Let them talk over doors and spend time in the school then add another and another then before you know it they won’t bother with her. Flinging a horse into an established herd is just not the way to do it and usually results in what happened to yours.

Taking her away then putting her back won’t make the issues any different. Still going into the same herd.


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## Tiddlypom (9 March 2021)

Cheeky Chestnut said:



			Taking her away then putting her back won’t make the issues any different. Still going into the same herd.
		
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I agree with this. It’s just delaying a re run of what happened the first time, unless the introductions can be managed better.

The yard is failing in its duty of care by throwing newbies out into an established herd and letting them get on with it.


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## abb123 (9 March 2021)

I agree, taking her away and then bringing her back is not going to resolve anything. I don't think these issues are because she is a baby at all, adding any horse into a herd would be the same.

Agree with the other suggestions of meeting in the school and over doorways, hand graze along the fence line etc. Can you also make your own little electric fence area and put it up just inside the gate for an hour with you supervising? You could do it at a quiet time when no horses going in or out and it doesn't have to be big just big enough that the other horses can't reach her.  

I'd also reach out to the other mare owners and ask for their help. Would they let you bring the main instigators in for an hour so you can turn yours out with the friendly ones? 

It doesn't sound like the YO/staff care so you might as well just take matters into your own hands and crack on. This phase doesn't normally last long, you just have to get over it and then it will be fine!!


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## Xtra (9 March 2021)

Are the other mares out 24/7?


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## bouncing_ball (9 March 2021)

Cheeky Chestnut said:



			Speak to the mare owners and ask if you can put them in the school together one at a time for some supervised meetings. Let them talk over doors and spend time in the school then add another and another then before you know it they won’t bother with her. Flinging a horse into an established herd is just not the way to do it and usually results in what happened to yours.

Taking her away then putting her back won’t make the issues any different. Still going into the same herd.
		
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It might help, if she learns to meet new horses in herd of youngsters for a few months. Then you carefully added her back in this mare herd, in summer, when it is warmer, and maybe the are all a bit more relaxed? I did wonder if the mare herd are only out daytime at the moment, whether you could use the time early morning  and late afternoon to get your filly used to the field with just one mare? 

e.g. If mare herd is currently out 8-4pm at the moment, you turn her out with one mare 6.30-8am. You come back and turn her out with a different mare 4pm until darkness. Repeat until she has met all the mares. The start with two mares and her. And build to whole herd. You do all the leg work, but you hopefully get a good outcome.


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## Caol Ila (9 March 2021)

To be honest, I think she needs both. Learning social skills in a friendlier group and then a gradual introduction, like you guys are describing. Yard has expressed willingness to make paddocks or use the existing paddocks in the summer, once the grass is established. But I can't keep her in the box for the next two or three months.


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## Meowy Catkin (9 March 2021)

You can only ever do your best with the options and facilities that are available to you at the time. 

If the place a few miles away is the best option, then that is what you should do. 

Whatever you choose I hope that it all works out and you can stop worrying about her safety. That is just the worst.


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## Dexter (9 March 2021)

Caol Ila said:



			To be honest, I think she needs both. Learning social skills in a friendlier group and then a gradual introduction, like you guys are describing. Yard has expressed willingness to make paddocks or use the existing paddocks in the summer, once the grass is established. But I can't keep her in the box for the next two or three months.
		
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That sounds like a good plan to me in the circumstances


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## Caol Ila (14 March 2021)

Hermosa is moving to the yard 30 miles south of where I live. I turned over every closer rock I could. One kind of came through at the 11th hour, but it wasn't a lot closer and I had already arranged transport and told the YO 30m away that I was coming, and I didn't want to be a dick. The 11th hour place wasn't close enough to justify that.

I fear my boarding stable in CO where I spent my formative years as a horse person has set me up for a lifetime of disappointment. I cried a lot when I went to uni; not because I left my friends and parents, but I left the barn. I was a mess when Gypsum boarded a lorry that would take her to Massachusetts. It was a special barn, with an incredible community, a wonderful horsey support network, and I understood that, even at 18. It was magical, really. When we came back after graduated, that barn built a pen for Gypsum, a whole damn pen! Just for her. And it wasn't like it was a small barn. Or that it didn't have a lot going on. When my current yard told me they had 88 horses and could not possibly do anything special for just one, I almost laughed. Or cried. Mostly cried. My old barn had about 90. It ran a riding school. It ran an equine assisted therapy program. It ran horsey camps for kids in social care and for kids who'd been entangled in the criminal justice system. But if a boarder horse wasn't getting on with existing arrangements, whatever they were, they figured it out, or tried their motherfkucing best to. People left for lots of reasons, like at any barn, but no one ever left because their horse needed some tweak to turn-out arrangements or whatever and they couldn't work it out. People bought two year olds, weanlings. They had foals. They had everything. God, I miss that place. Doesn't exist anymore. The old owners died -- Ellie while I was at uni for degree #1 (and I was devastated; she was like a second mother), and her husband, Bob, around the time I finished my PhD -- and their sons ran it for a number of years, but while their parents had been horsemen/women through and through, the sons weren't that into it. And as you can imagine, the ranch made no money. Probably broke even. So there was that. The sons sold it to the city as open space in 2015 or thereabouts, and now all the buildings are gone and it's just trails for the public.

RIP, Joder Arabian Ranch. Gypsum knew it, and she's a lucky girl. Even if I moved back, Hermosa never will and that is sad for her.

And before anyone says anything about grass, this is Colorado. There is no fkucking grass.

Gotta start buying those lottery tickets.


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## spookypony (14 March 2021)

@Caol Ila, a really heart-felt post from you! Sounds like your early livery experiences were wonderful. I do hope you manage to sort out your livery arrangements in the future to suit all three of you, Gypsum, and Hermosa! I tried keeping mine at my cottage (for nearly 5 years), but found I got too stressed with my job, and not being able to compartmentalise when I got away from the uni. For me, the solution has been a small private yard, where I get 4.5 acres, 2 stables, and a school (albeit weirdly shaped) for less than I would pay for grass livery for 3 (or DIY for 2). With 2 horses, it might be worth looking around for something similar, although I appreciate the issue of Gypsum being really settled where she is and hard to move. 88 horses is a pretty big yard, and if the horsey manager has moved on, I'm not surprised that the non-horsey owners are struggling a bit! I hope Gypsum and Hermosa eventually have the opportunity to become friends: if they managed that, it would help you no ends, I think.


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## Caol Ila (15 March 2021)

How do you even find that? I desperately tried to find a private set-up nearby, and the only one I found would have required Hermosa to be all on her own, until the owners of the stable block and paddocks eventually got around to buying a horse for themselves. Screw that.

I also think Gypsum is the worst horse in the world to be teaching Hermosa equine social skills. The filly really needs to be around a horse who actually has some. Ever since we moved to the UK, Gypsum has been getting us chucked out of yards.


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## spotty_pony (15 March 2021)

Caol Ila said:



			How do you even find that? I desperately tried to find a private set-up nearby, and the only one I found would have required Hermosa to be all on her own, until the owners of the stable block and paddocks eventually got around to buying a horse for themselves. Screw that.

I also think Gypsum is the worst horse in the world to be teaching Hermosa equine social skills. The filly really needs to be around a horse who actually has some. Ever since we moved to the UK, Gypsum has been getting us chucked out of yards.
		
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 Could you not move both to the private set up you found and just put them in fields next to each other?


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## Jeni the dragon (15 March 2021)

Caol Ila said:



			How do you even find that?
		
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I think sometimes they find us. Mine certainly did. Which doesn't help alot unfortunately. But making sure people know you are looking will make a difference.


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## atropa (15 March 2021)

Caol Ila said:



			When my current yard told me they had 88 horses and could not possibly do anything special for just one, I almost laughed. Or cried. Mostly cried.
		
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So I think from this I've just realised where you are (I may have mentioned it previously in the thread). I'm sad and surprised that you're having that experience there, I thought since the owners took it back from the previous long term tenant it had vastly improved but maybe not. I've only ever been there for a couple of lessons in the distant past.

In my experience there are really not a lot of private yards coming up for rent along the central belt, I'm always jealous of people who manage to find them.


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## Dexter (15 March 2021)

Jeni the dragon said:



			I think sometimes they find us. Mine certainly did. Which doesn't help alot unfortunately. But making sure people know you are looking will make a difference.
		
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Thats how I found mine. It found me. I couldnt cope at livery yards anymore. I want my horses to have turnout and in order for them to have that I do without a school, and just make do. It works just fine with a bit of compromise from me.


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## Caol Ila (15 March 2021)

spotty_pony said:



			Could you not move both to the private set up you found and just put them in fields next to each other?
		
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She only had two fields that she wanted to rotate between, and she also wanted to leave the space free for her future pony.



atropa said:



			So I think from this I've just realised where you are (I may have mentioned it previously in the thread). I'm sad and surprised that you're having that experience there, I thought since the owners took it back from the previous long term tenant it had vastly improved but maybe not. I've only ever been there for a couple of lessons in the distant past.

In my experience there are really not a lot of private yards coming up for rent along the central belt, I'm always jealous of people who manage to find them.
		
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It had improved and become a lovely yard. When I moved Gypsum there, I gave them fair warning of all her weird sh1t, and they assured me they would figure her out and make it work. They were one of the only yards to do that. The others I approached didn't want to touch her with a bargepole. They saved her life. If I failed to find somewhere willing to work with her, I don't know what I would have done. I'm sad and surprised too. Or maybe I should not be surprised since the horsey director stepped down from her role, and the buck now stops with the one who does not have a background in horses, but rather farming and hospitality. I assumed it was still the same. I'd assured them that the filly could run with the mares and did not need a paddock, but I suppose I had also wrongly assumed that if everything went pear shaped -- and as we know, things do, even with older horses -- they would work out a plan. They'd said they would in the fall of 2018 with a much more difficult horse, and to be honest, incessant fencewalking can break the will of most YOs (and horse owners), but the filly's issues are straightforward, normal horse stuff.


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## milliepops (15 March 2021)

it does sound like your old barn has sort of spoilt the livery experience for you. Don't know about other HHOers, but I expect my experience is a common one, which is largely that you are buying the service that is offered and you either put up with it or shuffle off to somewhere else (which usually means a different version of putting up with it!)

I had one different experience on a yard where I stayed for 14 years, which started like that but gradually I became absorbed into the family, but the flip side was they did no maintenance, I was more or less unpaid staff doing the other liveries, and it took over my whole life. Flexibility was no problem... but things were going to rack and ruin so I had to move to ensure the safety of my horse.

I got my private yard by.... marrying a bloke with some fields, haha. No facilities at home though so I'm still a livery client for the ones in work, i just have a bit more flex because I can ship them home if needs be.

Glad you've found an alternative for H and hope it helps her to get settled with a new gang.


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## spookypony (15 March 2021)

That's a shame about the private yard, because that might have been a good solution. But you can't have a 2yo be alone for an indeterminate period of time! And I'm guessing it would have been on you to find a companion, while waiting for the other person to find a pony. I guess the thing to hope for now is that by the summer, your current yard will be able to come up with a better plan for introducing your filly. I still don't get why they are being quite so rigid about the idea of fencing off a corner of the field, but there's not much you can do about that. I hope the yard owners get a new horsey manager in soon!


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## Caol Ila (15 March 2021)

If that woman already had a horse, my filly would be there. But she said, "I might buy one next month..... I might buy one in a few months....I don't want to guarantee anything." Yeah, no. 

Took an hour to load her. She's not a dramatic horse or very hot (apparently missed the memo that PREs are supposed to be hot). She glued her feet to the ground. She is not very responsive to pressure at her hind end and ignored it rather than moved forward or did anything else. Teaching her those (ground) driving aids is going to have to be a thing at some point. Some horses wil naturally move off from pressure at their flank, but she doesn't give a damn. However, she loaded willingly, without force or coercion, when a Lickit was provided, and she followed that into the lorry. I guess everyone has their price. 

On my way back to Gypsum's yard, I took a wrong turn and ended up on another back road. Passed a house with maybe half a dozen stables and some grassy paddocks divided by electric fences and a few horses in the paddocks. Dammit, I thought. Another door I didn't knock on.


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## spookypony (15 March 2021)

@Caol Ila , huge hugs to you, and please don't beat yourself up about those doors. It's hard to see the big picture when you're in the middle of the moment, as you are right now. But we are all rooting for your filly to settle in well into her new place, for you to cope ok with the commute for the next few months, and then for things to improve. She looks so lovely, and she seems to be doing remarkably well so far. I really hope that in the long run, you will look back on these days and see them as a road bump on the way to wonderful things to come.


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## bouncing_ball (16 March 2021)

spookypony said:



@Caol Ila , huge hugs to you, and please don't beat yourself up about those doors. It's hard to see the big picture when you're in the middle of the moment, as you are right now. But we are all rooting for your filly to settle in well into her new place, for you to cope ok with the commute for the next few months, and then for things to improve. She looks so lovely, and she seems to be doing remarkably well so far. I really hope that in the long run, you will look back on these days and see them as a road bump on the way to wonderful things to come.
		
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This is very well put. There are lots of us rooting for you, and both your horses. 

I’m hoping things level out, and you can get the filly integrated into the home mare herd by the end of the year and can have some fun with both over the summer.


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## Caol Ila (16 March 2021)

I can't wait for this to be a funny story rather than a huge hassle.

The filly went out with 'nanny mare' today in the arena. YO sent a video. They look calm and happy. Hopefully they'll graduate to the field in the next couple days. 

While talking to people during this clusterfkuc, it has struck me that everyone is obsessed with horses having the lushest pastures possible, hence the drama with 'not enough turnout' or 'not enough grass.' But while a horse like Gypsum needs the lushest pasture possible, a lot of these British natives (and PREs) definitely do not. They are much healthier on rougher grazing. People seem genuinely baffled by this revelation. How is this not common knowledge?


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## Dexter (16 March 2021)

Caol Ila said:



			I can't wait for this to be a funny story rather than a huge hassle.

The filly went out with 'nanny mare' today in the arena. YO sent a video. They look calm and happy. Hopefully they'll graduate to the field in the next couple days.

While talking to people during this clusterfkuc, it has struck me that everyone is obsessed with horses having the lushest pastures possible, hence the drama with 'not enough turnout' or 'not enough grass.' But while a horse like Gypsum needs the lushest pasture possible, a lot of these British natives (and PREs) definitely do not. They are much healthier on rougher grazing. People seem genuinely baffled by this revelation. How is this not common knowledge?
		
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I have no idea. I have mine on a track and feed hay all year round. It genuinely horrifies some people. Come spring they want to chuck out onto lush green grass till winter.


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## Slightlyconfused (16 March 2021)

Caol Ila said:



			I can't wait for this to be a funny story rather than a huge hassle.

The filly went out with 'nanny mare' today in the arena. YO sent a video. They look calm and happy. Hopefully they'll graduate to the field in the next couple days. 

While talking to people during this clusterfkuc, it has struck me that everyone is obsessed with horses having the lushest pastures possible, hence the drama with 'not enough turnout' or 'not enough grass.' But while a horse like Gypsum needs the lushest pasture possible, a lot of these British natives (and PREs) definitely do not. They are much healthier on rougher grazing. People seem genuinely baffled by this revelation. How is this not common knowledge?
		
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Because people are idiots and don't actually understand how horses work.

I'm not bothered about nice lush pasture, I just want grass that isn't sick. Don't mind it there is weeds etc mixed in plus in the winter grass and mud never mi, but it comes good again as long as their isn't too many horses on it.


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## Caol Ila (16 March 2021)

Slightlyconfused said:



			Because people are idiots and don't actually understand how horses work.
		
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Unfortunately, they all seem to be running yards. My filly could still be at the yard if they'd been willing to accept that one of their paddocks might not be as lush as the others because it had a couple extra horses on it for a few weeks. That's actually not a bad thing for many horses (probably the majority....as natives bred to survive on nothing outnumber hard keeper TB types). My theory is that people like the _look _of verdant fields.


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## zandp (16 March 2021)

Caol Ila said:



			I can't wait for this to be a funny story rather than a huge hassle.

The filly went out with 'nanny mare' today in the arena. YO sent a video. They look calm and happy. Hopefully they'll graduate to the field in the next couple days.

While talking to people during this clusterfkuc, it has struck me that everyone is obsessed with horses having the lushest pastures possible, hence the drama with 'not enough turnout' or 'not enough grass.' But while a horse like Gypsum needs the lushest pasture possible, a lot of these British natives (and PREs) definitely do not. They are much healthier on rougher grazing. People seem genuinely baffled by this revelation. How is this not common knowledge?
		
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I have no idea, one YO a few years ago got really offended when I asked to see her hay and grass in the fields and pointed out there was ryegrass in both so I couldn't move my horses there.

My yard isn't perfect by any means but the YO lets me set a track up and even provided wooden corner posts for me to use so my horses could have no to minimal grass with hay.  I reseed and section off the really bare patches so that they have grass over winter and her field doesn't look quite as much like a mud bath (we're on clay).  Almost all of the rest of the yard don't turnout over winter (we have dry lots for turnout as well) so that they have loads of grass for Spring.  I set my track up 3 weeks ago as was worried about grass growing !


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## Tarragon (16 March 2021)

With 2 native field-kept ponies, this time of year makes me very nervous! trying to judge when to whip them out of the well grazed and big winter field and get them grazing their summer space. Leave it too soon and ruin the summer grazing, leave it too late and catch the spring grass! Get it just right and they move into their summer grazing and already have it grazed down before the spring grass starts to come through in earnest...


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## Tarragon (16 March 2021)

Caol Ila - I do hope it all works out well for you and that in a few weeks time you will have two happy horses and will have forgotten all this stress!


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## Annagain (16 March 2021)

milliepops said:



			Don't know about other HHOers, but I expect my experience is a common one, which is largely that you are buying the service that is offered and you either put up with it or 
shuffle off to somewhere else (which usually means a different version of putting up with it!).
		
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I've definitely found this. My yard really suits me - there are few rules and we're all trusted to do the right thing, which most of us do most of the time. My fellow liveries are generally a good bunch. Most importantly, the boys are really happy there - they have daily turnout (24/7 in summer and 12 hours a day in winter) settled herds that aren't too big or too small and well maintained fencing and facilities. In emergencies, they're great - M currently has a fenced off pen in the corner of the field he goes into three times a day as he's on box rest and won't wee in his stable - or while on a leadrope so it was the only solution for him. However, several people have had to leave because the grass is just too good and the YO won't allow a starvation paddock or strip grazing as they look messy. We've had several natives go down with laminitis and many of the better doers have to be muzzled while out all summer. As lovely as the place is and as much as people want to stay, if the set up doesn't suit the horses they have no choice but to move. There are enough horse owners in the area that the YO can afford to do this.


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## ester (16 March 2021)

For some people what’s their fields look like is more important than how good they are for horses


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## laura_nash (16 March 2021)

Tarragon said:



			With 2 native field-kept ponies, this time of year makes me very nervous! trying to judge when to whip them out of the well grazed and big winter field and get them grazing their summer space. Leave it too soon and ruin the summer grazing, leave it too late and catch the spring grass! Get it just right and they move into their summer grazing and already have it grazed down before the spring grass starts to come through in earnest...
		
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After 3 years of this I gave up on it and bought some cows.  Now they eat the spring grass and the ponies follow behind them in summer.


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## Tiddlypom (16 March 2021)

ester said:



			For some people what’s their fields look like is more important than how good they are for horses
		
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I reckon that either the fields look well, or the horses look well, but very rarely do the two coincide.

Sheep, on the other hand... though sheep only want to escape or die, so preferably someone else's' sheep.


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## holeymoley (16 March 2021)

Oh yes it’s definitely about how they look. They’re mad on fertilising too. If it’s not green enough then boof, horses off right away!

Our natives were evolved to survive off the moors with heather,gorse, thistles etc etc not fields of just grass.


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## J&S (17 March 2021)

I'm not a fan of grass!  A good space to roam around and have a pick here and there seems the best way for mine.


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## LadyGascoyne (17 March 2021)

Mine are already on a track system for summer. I’m hoping they murder the grass the moment it emerges. Spanish and Araby ones here. The Araby one can look at a blade of grass and expand.


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## milliepops (17 March 2021)

I have some that need grass and some that don't... on the whole though, I need hay, and if our grass doesn't grow well then we end up short of hay. So my home fields get fertilised and over seeded etc, and then fenced off til the hay is taken, which works well.

Yard ground is so wet and mainly grazed by sports horses so they're pretty keen on pretty grass too 😅


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## Caol Ila (17 March 2021)

How come you all understand this, but people running yards don't? I wanted to scream when the YM told me, "There isn't enough grass" while I was staring at multiple empty paddocks with more than enough grass for a small PRE and a native friend.

Hearsay has it that _I_ dismissed the idea of letting her partner with another horse. I didn't, but I was genuinely baffled by how to do it without a paddock. Hand graze them together, they said. Well, when my horse is on the end of a lead, 95% of her focus has to be on me, not what another horse is doing. Even the 2-year old got that memo. They can't really do horse things. Plus, finding a livery willing to take half an hour or an hour out of their busy day to hand graze for a week or two is impossible, and allowing them to run loose in the arena even harder, because it's only through sheer luck that it will be free at the same time both myself and fellow livery and I are there.


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## Caol Ila (17 March 2021)

It feels like a set back. She was a lot spookier and more worried about things than she had been at the previous yard. But she was very light and responsive to the groundwork I taught her -- back up and disengaging the hind end.

The yard staff at Gypsum's yard don't seem to be speaking to me at the moment. That's cute. I can't figure that one out. I did what you fkucking wanted -- I got my baby horse out of your hair.


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## DressageCob (17 March 2021)

Might it be that they have seen this post? 
I hope she grows in confidence again soon. She's perhaps just a little unsettled given the events of the last few weeks. 

You're doing your best for her so I hope it all gets less stressful!


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## Caol Ila (17 March 2021)

I don't feel my best is enough. The turn-out situation right now isn't perfect for a youngster (but it will hopefully change in a few weeks), but everywhere I turned felt like a choice that would present difficulty one way or another. I was unhappy with everything. Rocks and hard places and all that.


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## palo1 (17 March 2021)

milliepops said:



			I have some that need grass and some that don't... on the whole though, I need hay, and if our grass doesn't grow well then we end up short of hay. So my home fields get fertilised and over seeded etc, and then fenced off til the hay is taken, which works well.

Yard ground is so wet and mainly grazed by sports horses so they're pretty keen on pretty grass too 😅
		
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I spent years frantic about grass - too much of it, the wrong sort, clay when trying to create tracks etc etc.  It was a minor revelation to work with my OH (who is a farmer's son) including having to have some really difficult discussions about what horses need.  We now find a good balance between productive, organically fertilised fields that provide good, growing grass which we effectively (though not quite) mob graze but within healthy limits for the horses and where necessary removing them from that good grass.  In my experience with some quite tricky horses, grass is pretty important and the good growing stuff in safe quantities is far healthier than some of the horse sick grazing that many livery yards have.   We have limited land so our grass needs to work reasonably hard.  The ideal for some of our horses would be open hill grazing but the ideal for the others would be much richer grass.  My understanding of grass itself is that happy, relatively long and happily growing grass is the safest but only if in appropriate quantities.  That actually takes some doing!!  Most livery yards really struggle to invest in the ground too which does lead to problem grazing ime.  Our horses have probably never been healthier than they are now - where we have been able to lime our ground, fertilise organically and graze within what both the horses and the pasture itself can cope with.  It is part and parcel of the livery market here that the land isn't usually well looked after.   Sorry Caol Ita - I really hope you find that things settle down for you now.


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## Caol Ila (18 March 2021)

I'm just doubting all my life choices right now.


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## PurBee (18 March 2021)

Hey, maybe that ‘wrong turn’ on those backroads was a ‘meant to be’ in disguise. To find, out of the blue, while ’accidently’ on the wrong road, a multi-stable and paddock set-up...just what youve been searching for.

Worth keeping that as a fall-back idea should new place not work. 😉


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## CanteringCarrot (18 March 2021)

PurBee said:



			Hey, maybe that ‘wrong turn’ on those backroads was a ‘meant to be’ in disguise. To find, out of the blue, while ’accidently’ on the wrong road, a multi-stable and paddock set-up...just what youve been searching for.

Worth keeping that as a fall-back idea should new place not work. 😉
		
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Yeah, honestly, I'd still inquire.

If it works it's easier and you'd just have have tell the place she is at now that you found something closer you didn't know about before. It is added stress moving her so often though. So that depends on the horse. No place is a guarantee either. You sometimes don't know what works until you're in the thick of it 🙄 

I'm sorry this has worked out this way for you. It's incredibly frustrating, but I know you'll have a wonderful journey with her in time. There is nothing like a good Spanish horse.


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## ycbm (18 March 2021)

Caol Ila said:



			(apparently missed the memo that PREs are supposed to be hot).
		
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I think most of them are gentle creatures to handle, mine is.  I hope she settles quickly in the new place CI.




Caol Ila said:



			I'm just doubting all my life choices right now.
		
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Can't like that .  I hope things all come together for you soon.


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## CanteringCarrot (18 March 2021)

ycbm said:



			I think most of them are gentle creatures to handle, mine is.  I hope she settles quickly in the new place CI.
		
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Mine is very gentle to handle and generally calm. OH and I have gone hiking and taken him (in hand) because he's so easy to lead and is sort of like walking a dog, happy to be out and about, just follows along. 

Under saddle with actual work...welllll, that's when the heat is turned up 🤣 but I never feel in danger or that he's out of control or something like that.

So she might not have missed the memo 😉


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## j1ffy (18 March 2021)

I've just been catching up on this thread and have nothing helpful to add other than I'm so sorry for you that it's turned out so tricky  I hope the yard staff stop being childish and remember that you're still a paying livery.

She'll settle in just fine and it sounds like you're already doing plenty of groundwork with her to build her confidence. Like CC, my PREs are all absolutely lovely to handle, certainly not hot! They've all gone through phases of being a bit stubborn to load - nothing nasty, just stubbornly standing with their feet at the bottom of the ramp - but patience and waiting it out has always worked with a rope halter in the lorry in case of emergencies. My last PRE was very easy to load unless we were at a venue with grass in sight on a sunny day, in which case he'd prefer to stay put  

Best of luck, hopefully once the sun comes out and you're enjoying Hermosa in the summer months this will all be forgotten.


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## tristar (18 March 2021)

congrats, ifind my iberians come off the lorry very carefully, as if they like to know where their feet are safely and unload in slow motion, and i hope they stay like that,! in fact when the first one came the transporter had to push him off in the end it took ages to unload  

also we have just moved and settling in has been a long process for whatever reason

best of luck with her


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## tristar (18 March 2021)

Caol Ila said:



			If that woman already had a horse, my filly would be there. But she said, "I might buy one next month..... I might buy one in a few months....I don't want to guarantee anything." Yeah, no. 

Took an hour to load her. She's not a dramatic horse or very hot (apparently missed the memo that PREs are supposed to be hot). She glued her feet to the ground. She is not very responsive to pressure at her hind end and ignored it rather than moved forward or did anything else. Teaching her those (ground) driving aids is going to have to be a thing at some point. Some horses wil naturally move off from pressure at their flank, but she doesn't give a damn. However, she loaded willingly, without force or coercion, when a Lickit was provided, and she followed that into the lorry. I guess everyone has their price. 

On my way back to Gypsum's yard, I took a wrong turn and ended up on another back road. Passed a house with maybe half a dozen stables and some grassy paddocks divided by electric fences and a few horses in the paddocks. Dammit, I thought. Another door I didn't knock on. 

Click to expand...

one of ,mine did that when moving two weeks ago, i got a transporter to do the job, he was brill,  the horse just rooted, so i asked everyone to stand back,and he did all sniffing of the ramp stuff, then i put his foot on the ramp, more sniffing then carrots, for temptation, then just stood there while he thought about it, then in the end he walked on sweet as a nut, but i swear no amount of force would have got him on, so just like hermosa really


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## tristar (18 March 2021)

Caol Ila said:



			Just feel so bummed. I had been so looking forward to having the mare at this yard, because the liveries and facilities are really good, and my yard friends are so supportive.  But even with an older horse, I don't know how to safely introduce it to their herds now, given that neither management nor staff have at any point enabled a systematic, safe (or as safe as possible) protocol for doing so, or suggested that there even is one.
		
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not surprised you feel bummed, priority is the horses safety not just intro but you need peace of mind daily, start looking upwards aim higher hope something better turns up soon


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## tristar (18 March 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			I agree with this. It’s just delaying a re run of what happened the first time, unless the introductions can be managed better.

The yard is failing in its duty of care by throwing newbies out into an established herd and letting them get on with it.
		
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 i think its illegal from a a health and safety point of view, totally against all the good standards of horse management  well i  think its just cruel, i`ve seen horses kicked and legs broken etc, a nice companion she can settle with is what you need, and come on don`t let the face book lot put off  get on everywhere till something turns up that takes the stress away for you and risk for the horse. x


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## tristar (18 March 2021)

spotty_pony said:



			Could you not move both to the private set up you found and just put them in fields next to each other?
		
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i do this with my stallion but he has 2 fences between, but at night can socialize and groom over a stable door


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## palo1 (18 March 2021)

CanteringCarrot said:



			Mine is very gentle to handle and generally calm. OH and I have gone hiking and taken him (in hand) because he's so easy to lead and is sort of like walking a dog, happy to be out and about, just follows along.

Under saddle with actual work...welllll, that's when the heat is turned up 🤣 but I never feel in danger or that he's out of control or something like that.

So she might not have missed the memo 😉
		
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I think, although the situation feels bad at the moment @Caol Ita, you should take heart that you have got a lovely young horse and one of the very best things is that as a traditional 'working' breed, she will probably be both resilient and keen to work with you and establish a partnership.  In my experience, those true working breeds- the best kind of arabs, well managed natives , PREs, Criollos, even TBs have a superb attitude when they are handled correctly.  (I am not dissing other breeds at all - I just have a love of and more understanding of the traditional types of working horses) You both have time to get things sorted long before you need to ask her to engage the 'heat' of her heart!    Her working heritage will help her and you and you will find things settle down.  I certainly hope you find things easier soon.


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## Caol Ila (18 March 2021)

I mean, out of the two of us, the filly seems to be handling it all better. But the bar is low.


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## Caol Ila (20 March 2021)

I hope she's resilient. Even after a week (and no turnout) at the yard we had to leave, she was developing confidence and trust. Now she is a lot warier and more sceptical of humans, especially me. I just feel depressed by it all.


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## holeymoley (20 March 2021)

Is there no way you can stable her at the place you bought her from?


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## Caol Ila (20 March 2021)

Yeah, that's an option. But I don't think I should move her again this quickly, especially as she is bonding with the yard's nanny mare. I'm just working on handling her feet, which has never been done except during the vetting, and her toes are far too long. Like starting to curl long. Not ideal. So, there's that.


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## Caol Ila (21 March 2021)

Groundwork is coming along, and she is getting better at lifting her front feet and tying like an old veteran. So that's good. However, I am flapping about turnout. Currently, she's out in a pen with nanny mare for a couple hours per day, and otherwise in her stall. I was under the impression that this would be a fairly temporary situation, and they would be in a field soon. Besides, it wasn't like I had a lot of choice. But one of the lassies who works there today indicated that it could be "months," because YO's husband is a farmer, and he dictates field usage and prioritizes the cattle. I will try to get a better sense of things next time I see the YO, but while H is coping, I don't think it's ideal for a youngster to be in this much. I want her sound when she's 20. Will she survive a few weeks/months? Should I be flapping?


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## laura_nash (21 March 2021)

Caol Ila said:



			But one of the lassies who works there today indicated that it could be "months," because YO's husband is a farmer, and he dictates field usage and prioritizes the cattle. I will try to get a better sense of things next time I see the YO, but while H is coping, I don't think it's ideal for a youngster to be in this much. I want her sound when she's 20. Will she survive a few weeks/months? Should I be flapping?
		
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Whilst its not ideal I wouldn't panic too much over a few weeks as a one-off given the alternative options are not ideal either (it can't really be months, surely).  Hopefully you can find a better solution for next winter.

My main worry would be if YO's husband is a farmer and prioritizes the cattle then what are the fields like?  If they are a sea of well-fertilised rye grass that would not be ideal for a PRE that can't be in hard work due to her age.


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## Caol Ila (21 March 2021)

Oh, yeah. Next winter she will not be there.

When I looked at the yard, the YO pointed to one of the (many) fields and said that her husband didn't fertilize that one, and that's where she would go. The field in question currently has some sheep on it.


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## DressageCob (21 March 2021)

Caol Ila said:



			Oh, yeah. Next winter she will not be there.

When I looked at the yard, the YO pointed to one of the (many) fields and said that her husband didn't fertilize that one, and that's where she would go. The field in question currently has some sheep on it.
		
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That's no bad thing. At least the sheep will keep the grass down before the horses go on it. And it sounds like the YO has given it some thought. I hope she can get her husband to let you have that field 😄


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## Caol Ila (21 March 2021)

I had said that PREs can't be on rich fields, hence the chat about that one. I would just like her to be on it.

I'll keep documenting stuff here. Maybe I will be able to start a sequel to the Dressage Curmudgeon blog some day. But I don't think I will be as funny.


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## Caol Ila (27 March 2021)

Hermosa was a bit rattled and spooky about the world after her first hot date with the farrier for a trim, but she was fine the next day, and we went on our longest walk yet. Ideally, I would have had more time to work on getting her feet handled, but her front feet were pretty damned desperate (she's never been trimmed nor been taught to even lift her feet until I bought her) so it just had to be done. They are okay now, so I can take a bit of time to make the next visit easier.

Cows, on the other hand, are not a thing. This will make hacking easy.
	


Gypsum was three-legged lame today. Vet is coming out around 2000 hours tonight.


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## Meowy Catkin (27 March 2021)

I hope that Gypsum is OK and it is just an abscess that is quickly resolved.

I'm very impressed with Hermosa and the cows. What a star.


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## Jeni the dragon (27 March 2021)

I hope things go OK with Gypsum and the vet tonight.


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## holeymoley (27 March 2021)

Hopefully it’s just an abscess. Perfect conditions for it at the moment.


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## Caol Ila (27 March 2021)

Vet thinks Gypsum has tweaked something in her fetlock in the slimy conditions. She's on box rest and (more) Danilon until she is less lame. Had the same issue on the other hind leg a couple months ago. We need dry and warm conditions, which is not what the West of Scotland is known for. It doesn't help that we can no longer use the barn driveway to get to her turnout field and also the main road into Mugdock, but rather we have to use the WWI trench of a gallop, because yard management have banned us from riding or leading horses on the newly paved barn driveway because the horses will, allegedly, damage the new asphalt. My arse. Don't get me fkucking started.


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## spookypony (27 March 2021)

All the best for Gypsum!


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## Caol Ila (28 March 2021)

Hermosa stopped following me around the arena for long enough to take a proper side-on photo. This has been harder than you think.

She's very bum high and fuzzy at the moment, going for more of a yak look than a majestic PRE look.


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## shortstuff99 (28 March 2021)

Ahhh she is beautiful!


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## Caol Ila (29 March 2021)

shortstuff99 said:



			Ahhh she is beautiful!
		
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I hope so. When buying a horse in the fugly two-year old stage, I feel like you're trusting your gut and what you _think _you can see.


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## shortstuff99 (29 March 2021)

Caol Ila said:



			I hope so. When buying a horse in the fugly two-year old stage, I feel like you're trusting your gut and what you _think _you can see.
		
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Here is my PRE for 1.5 to 2.5 years old 🤣


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## Caol Ila (29 March 2021)

Your horse at 2.5 looks a bit more mature than mine. Her birthday is the end of June, so she's not exactly a spring foal.


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## CanteringCarrot (29 March 2021)

.


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## Inda (29 March 2021)

Thus is my PRE, 1 1/2, 21/2, 31/2 and 4 1/2. She went through a phase of a face only her mother could love 😳


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## Caol Ila (29 March 2021)

I am feeling really sad about Gypsum tonight. She is less lame than she was a few days ago, but the weakness and deterioration in her hind end is undeniable. I am hoping she will have this summer, but I don't know. I feel like I'm in the last rounds of a losing fight.

I hope this filly wasn't a stupid life choice, and that she wlll mature into something beautiful. Her temperament is impressive, so there's that.


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## spookypony (30 March 2021)

Caol Ila said:



			I am feeling really sad about Gypsum tonight. She is less lame than she was a few days ago, but the weakness and deterioration in her hind end is undeniable. I am hoping she will have this summer, but I don't know. I feel like I'm in the last rounds of a losing fight.

I hope this filly wasn't a stupid life choice, and that she wlll mature into something beautiful. Her temperament is impressive, so there's that.
		
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I'm really sad to hear about Gypsum, and hope she'll rally for a while. Re. filly, temperament is such a huge important thing! My companion pony mare is not the most athletic shape, to say the least, but her extraordinarily kind temperament suggests she'd have a secure future wherever she went (she's intended as hacking pony for friends, which she is doing admirably now), and that's so very important for a horse!


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## shortstuff99 (30 March 2021)

I have a beautiful horse with a very difficult temperament, she is easily stressed and can't take change. I have had ugly horses with an awesome attitude, I can tell you now which one I prefer 🤣. Also as you get to know her she will become beautiful!


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## southerncomfort (30 March 2021)

I'm so sorry.  Its absolutely heartbreaking watching our old friends deteriorate.

Regarding your lovely filly.  It might be helpful to think of her as a project and say that you'll put maybe 6 months education in to her, and then reassess whether she is going to be right for you long term.

It's very hard to think of committing yourself to a new horse long term when you have an older horse that needs lots of care. X


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## View (30 March 2021)

Sorry to hear about Gypsum.  Your love for her, and your determination to do right shines through everything you have written about her - and I'm sure that you will always make sure she has the right care.  Echo the suggestion to think of Hermosa as a project for a few months, and then take stock in six months.

And I'm another that will take temperament over looks any day!


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## Caol Ila (30 March 2021)

Yeah, I guess you're not married to a horse. I had wanted a youngster for years, but now that I have one, I sort of regret not buying something that could go easily into my yard's herds, although there's no saying an adult would have managed that, or buying something I could ride, even if £3500 doesn't get you as far in terms of quality.


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## TPO (31 March 2021)




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## Caol Ila (31 March 2021)

Yeah, I saw that and I think I might know which yard that is. No 100% sure, but fairly sure. If you want some light reading, check out my thread from October/November 2019 and the COTH thread I linked to.


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## Caol Ila (31 March 2021)

YO tells me she is "working" on getting her husband to allow Hermosa and her buddy into a field. This apparently depends on the ground staying dry enough for farmer husband to be happy putting a couple horses on it. In the West of Scotland, the one thing you cannot bet on is dry ground.

How much time would you give it before yard shopping (again)? Another move is definitely not ideal, but neither is staying in for an indeterminate amount of time. From April 4th, she will have had no real turnout for a month. Currently, she is out 1-2 hours per day with her buddy in a paddock. It's not nothing, but I am not happy about this. YO knows that, and she's very sympathetic, but it seems like she can't really control field allocation.

The filly was spooky and all over the place today. It was blowing a gale, so I hope it's that and not her getting fed up with the lack of proper horse time.


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## PurBee (1 April 2021)

I guess if the husband is so precious about the land, which i do personally understand being in 3000mm rain west ireland...!....id be questioning what happens in the upcoming warmer months when youve had a week of constant rain and the land is drenched - bring horse in for a week to wait for better weather and drier land again? So if its going to be that kinda setup, out when dry, in when land is saturated and will easily poach....id be looking for elsewhere personally.

I happily wreck my land - to an extent when temps are above 10 degrees, it is always recovering then. I tried to save the land but that would mean hardly any grazing time if i waited for it to be dry!

Each spring, around now i hire a huge digger and have hundreds of tonnes of hardcore delivered, and continue extending my ‘dry lot paddock’ so the horses have safe turnout even in the most dire conditions. Its where they loaf a lot of time on their own choice as they have an open stable, drylot and hardcore tracks to fields. Id cover the whole acerage in hardcore and top with sand if i could afford it! Dealing with constantly wet land in a wet climate no matter what month it is, grows old. But id never offer livery without the drylot so your owners have to choose to wreck the land or give up livery to off-farm horses to be frank. Its just not fair on the Horses. You have my sympathy C, i’d be keeping eyes peeled. She’s young, she’ll adjust - especially in a place with more freedom. It does them good to have exposure to different environments when young and be travelling. My mare was a 1 yard horse, who hates change because she never had it - the gelding brave and loves ‘new’ stuff, as he had change especially when between 6 months and 18months old. You’ll be her ‘constant’ and that’s excellent natural ‘bonding’ opportunity, aiding ongoing handling/training.


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## Caol Ila (1 April 2021)

Those are very good points, Purbee. I suppose quite a lot of young horses bounce from the stud, to auctions, to sales yards or dealers, to breakers' yards, etc.


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## PurBee (1 April 2021)

Yes, it’s common, and the thinking that its stressful for them is because usually (in the down n dirty horse-trade scenario) theyve passed quickly to different handlers with differnt ways of handling them, as well as surrounded by different horses without chance to herd bond, so sometimes these changes are a lot to process for them, but in your scenario, the handler, you, will remain constant....and she’s not going from one yard full of stressed young horses to another stressful horse ‘dealer’ trade stablishment. 
Fingers crossed for you, and gypsum too. I love her name - is she a salt of the earth kinda horse? 🙂


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## Caol Ila (1 April 2021)

Gypsum is sound (ish...as much she can be these days), so I'm having her turned out again. At least that's good news.

I guess it would be no worse than my filly's distant relatives ending up at an auction and/or a dealer's yard in Spain, then on a truck, then at a dealer's yard here.... And that must surely happen a lot because many PREs are imported.


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## Caol Ila (1 April 2021)

I also feel like I would acting like a bit of a dick to the YO, who is a very nice person. I know my horse's welfare comes first. But it goes back to my initial question....  At one point do I tell her (as diplomatically as possible), This isn't working. Another week? Two?


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## CanteringCarrot (1 April 2021)

I don't think it's a dick move to be like..

I really appreciate your efforts and find you and your yard to be lovely, but it is very important to me that my filly is out on a field all the time/for the majority of her day. I know it's out of your control, and I hoped that they'd be out sooner. Unfortunately I am going to have to move her. 

I mean, you were under pressure to move her from the last place so that she would at least be outside in some way. This looked like a good option and you were initially under the impression that the field would be open sooner. If you find some place that is ideal/definitely offers what you want, then I would do it so I could sleep better at night 😅 but only if I found another place and was dead certain.

I do agree that turnout is important, especially for young horses.


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## PurBee (1 April 2021)

What impression were you given about the new place? That you would have turnout for the youngster? Afterall that was the issue with the last place.
If theyve basically conned you into thinking youll have turnout then youve moved there and youre told “oh the field is too wet at the moment for turnout, maybe next week” - then i’d immediately say “i was hoping for turnout, you told me it would be available, she’s young and really needs turnout, its been x weeks now so im going to have to look for a place with immediate turnout”
Maybe that will spur them into making it available?

You said shes getting a couple of hours paddock time with her buddy- is there any way that time can be extended? Why is it only short stints?


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## Caol Ila (1 April 2021)

It's only short stints because the paddock gets rotated around all the horses. So each one only gets an hour or two. If they'd built four or five paddocks instead of one, they would have a really good set-up for winter. There are between 8 and 10 horses at the place.


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## holeymoley (1 April 2021)

TPO said:



View attachment 68844

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That sounds good


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## Caol Ila (1 April 2021)

holeymoley said:



			That sounds good
		
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I know it does, but if it's what I think it is, it would just add the epic drama of fall 2019 to the drama of 2021. Like I told TPO, you could probably unearth my thread about that clusterfkuc.


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## Jellymoon (1 April 2021)

If I were you, I would probably grit my teeth and hang in there for the better weather and more turnout, which must surely be soon. Keep on at the YO to put pressure on her OH. I probably wouldn’t move her again so soon. I know it’s not ideal, and I completely sympathise, btw, with that ‘what have I done?’ feeling. I think I’ve had that with every new horse! ESP the young ones.


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## Caol Ila (1 April 2021)

You're probably right, Jellymoon. One of my friends from uni (in the US) said that everything near her gets a couple hours of turnout per day, regardless of age, because that's life in suburban America. They survive. 

I constantly ask myself if I did the right thing. I sometimes look at my friends' cob. He goes in any field; he's easy and forgiving to handle; he hacks anywhere; he's not the pinnacle of equine athleticism and he will never do a piaffe. But he's fun and he makes his owners very happy. I could have had one like that. But after a moment of thinking, "I could buy something actually built for collection, instead of the series of quarter horses and draft crosses I have forced into a dressage career," I bought the Andalusian I could afford, which was a 2-year old.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (1 April 2021)

Turnout was so important to me that I have Faran 30mins drive from my house and from my work. I’m driving 40miles a day for work and horse, never have I done that. The yard has everything I need hay and straw on site, fabulous outdoor school and lovely indoor stables and more importantly all year turnout. In winter it’s out daily and in at night but they will be going out shortly 24/7 until October.

Farmer sets aside a geldings field and a mares field in winter for turnout. In summer we all have fields to our our horses in. We all share fields usually from pairs to 4/5 per field.

I wouldn’t stay somewhere I didn’t have daily turnout. Farmers are precious about their land. I would find somewhere else if I could, if they go out before you do great, if not then I’d leave.


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## Caol Ila (1 April 2021)

This yard was never going to be long term accomodation. I just needed somewhere to put her now, because of all the faff at Gypsum's yard. Ideally, she would go back there, and they have excellent winter turn-out provided you can safely integrate your horse into the big herds. So that's the hurdle to jump at some point (hopefully without jumping any more actual fences). And it's close to where I live, unlike 99.9% of other yards.

Don't suppose your yard is near Glasgow, Cheeky Chestnut?


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## Roasted Chestnuts (1 April 2021)

__ https://www.facebook.com/100003294335698/posts/3778568348929606



Is this close to you? New apparently?


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## Roasted Chestnuts (1 April 2021)

Caol Ila said:



			This yard was never going to be long term accomodation. I just needed somewhere to put her now, because of all the faff at Gypsum's yard. Ideally, she would go back there, and they have excellent winter turn-out provided you can safely integrate your horse into the big herds. So that's the hurdle to jump at some point (hopefully without jumping any more actual fences). And it's close to where I live, unlike 99.9% of other yards.

Don't suppose your yard is near Glasgow, Cheeky Chestnut?
		
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Hmmmm I wouldn’t say that close to Glasgow. Airdrie area so I’d say slap bang in the middle of Glasgow and Edinburgh 🤔

It’s on the other side of the Dunsyston Forest near where you Liveried years ago 🙂


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## Caol Ila (1 April 2021)

Is the world that small? 

To be honest, that yard near Dunsyston was not a desperate drive from the West End. It was closer than the one I moved to after I was in Airdrie, and it's probably less of a mission than where my filly is now.

That one in Cumbernauld isn't desperate, either.  It's definitely worth a look.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (1 April 2021)

Caol Ila said:



			Is the world that small?

To be honest, that yard near Dunsyston was not a desperate drive from the West End. It was closer than the one I moved to after I was in Airdrie, and it's probably less of a mission than where my filly is now.

That one in Cumbernauld isn't desperate, either.  It's definitely worth a look.
		
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Only thing is where I am right now is pure DIY. No services offered at all. YO gives you your hay and straw but nothing else gets done for you that’s no maintenance. Not horsey he’s a Farmer. Suits me as I love DIY and my friend and I split mornings and evenings for turnout/bring in in winter.


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## TPO (2 April 2021)

Caol Ila said:



			Is the world that small?

To be honest, that yard near Dunsyston was not a desperate drive from the West End. It was closer than the one I moved to after I was in Airdrie, and it's probably less of a mission than where my filly is now.

That one in Cumbernauld isn't desperate, either.  It's definitely worth a look.
		
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I'd do a wee fb stalk of the people attached to the Cumbernauld yard first. It may or may not be a fit for you.


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## brighteyes (2 April 2021)

Caol Ila said:



			I can't wait for this to be a funny story rather than a huge hassle.

The filly went out with 'nanny mare' today in the arena. YO sent a video. They look calm and happy. Hopefully they'll graduate to the field in the next couple days.

While talking to people during this clusterfkuc, it has struck me that everyone is obsessed with horses having the lushest pastures possible, hence the drama with 'not enough turnout' or 'not enough grass.' But while a horse like Gypsum needs the lushest pasture possible, a lot of these British natives (and PREs) definitely do not. They are much healthier on rougher grazing. People seem genuinely baffled by this revelation. How is this not common knowledge?
		
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New to this thread and am sitting here, opening and closing my mouth like a stranded fish. I have my own place and NONE of mine graze together. They are all in adjacent paddocks, split by electric fencing and I have had zero injuries' inflicted by the 'characters'. How is this not the obvious solution?

And as to the 'rubbish' grass is the best grass thing, look at all the obese and laminitic ones we have because owners really do not have the basic knowledge of nutrition. That combined with the inherited predispositions to metabolic disease and PPID. 

Most livery clients have no clue about land management either. It's a precarious business at best with the vagaries of our weather and many are outraged if the fields don't open on the day of pronouncement _because there was a deluge on the preceding five days... _Or 365 turnout, you know because fields repair themselves overnight. I'd be unhinged by uncleared fields, too, and worming schedules and herd dynamics being constantly upheaved. 

Finally, I had a VERY nasty gelding because he was herd leader - a very stressful position - who settle immediately he left to be part of an established herd and was relieved (literally!) of his duties as field manager!

Now I will finish reading the thread...


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## brighteyes (2 April 2021)

ester said:



			For some people what’s their fields look like is more important than how good they are for horses
		
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Aye, but with effort both can be achieved!


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## brighteyes (2 April 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			I reckon that either the fields look well, or the horses look well, but very rarely do the two coincide.

Sheep, on the other hand... though sheep only want to escape or die, so preferably someone else's' sheep.
		
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Is what I do - from another ex member on here.



holeymoley said:



			Oh yes it’s definitely about how they look. They’re mad on fertilising too. If it’s not green enough then boof, horses off right away!

Our natives were evolved to survive off the moors with heather,gorse, thistles etc etc not fields of just grass.
		
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Most people have forgotten this. Farmers have a hard time understanding they don't need feeding like meat of dairy cattle.



J&S said:



			I'm not a fan of grass!  A good space to roam around and have a pick here and there seems the best way for mine.
		
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It's the very devil, isn't it!



LadyGascoyne said:



			Mine are already on a track system for summer. I’m hoping they murder the grass the moment it emerges. Spanish and Araby ones here. The Araby one can look at a blade of grass and expand.
		
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Lol!



Caol Ila said:



			The yard staff at Gypsum's yard don't seem to be speaking to me at the moment. That's cute. I can't figure that one out. I did what you fkucking wanted -- I got my baby horse out of your hair.
		
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Livery people can be very strange.



PurBee said:



			I guess if the husband is so precious about the land, which i do personally understand being in 3000mm rain west ireland...!

Each spring, around now i hire a huge digger and have hundreds of tonnes of hardcore delivered, and continue extending my ‘dry lot paddock’ so the horses have safe turnout even in the most dire conditions. Its where they loaf a lot of time on their own choice as they have an open stable, drylot and hardcore tracks to fields. Id cover the whole acerage in hardcore and top with sand if i could afford it! Dealing with constantly wet land in a wet climate no matter what month it is, grows old. But id never offer livery without the drylot so your owners have to choose to wreck the land or give up livery to off-farm horses to be frank. Its just not fair on the Horses. You have my sympathy C, i’d be keeping eyes peeled. She’s young, she’ll adjust - especially in a place with more freedom. It does them good to have exposure to different environments when young and be travelling. My mare was a 1 yard horse, who hates change because she never had it - the gelding brave and loves ‘new’ stuff, as he had change especially when between 6 months and 18months old. You’ll be her ‘constant’ and that’s excellent natural ‘bonding’ opportunity, aiding ongoing handling/training.
		
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Stop permanently wrecking your ground and get Mudcontrol mats!!!


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## Caol Ila (2 April 2021)

TPO said:



			I'd do a wee fb stalk of the people attached to the Cumbernauld yard first. It may or may not be a fit for you.
		
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I stalked a bit but couldn't get a sense of it. Your stalking skills may be superior.



brighteyes said:



			New to this thread and am sitting here, opening and closing my mouth like a stranded fish. I have my own place and NONE of mine graze together. They are all in adjacent paddocks, split by electric fencing and I have had zero injuries' inflicted by the 'characters'. How is this not the obvious solution?

And as to the 'rubbish' grass is the best grass thing, look at all the obese and laminitic ones we have because owners really do not have the basic knowledge of nutrition. That combined with the inherited predispositions to metabolic disease and PPID.

Most livery clients have no clue about land management either. It's a precarious business at best with the vagaries of our weather and many are outraged if the fields don't open on the day of pronouncement _because there was a deluge on the preceding five days... _Or 365 turnout, you know because fields repair themselves overnight. I'd be unhinged by uncleared fields, too, and worming schedules and herd dynamics being constantly upheaved.

Finally, I had a VERY nasty gelding because he was herd leader - a very stressful position - who settle immediately he left to be part of an established herd and was relieved (literally!) of his duties as field manager!

Now I will finish reading the thread...
		
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I have spent years looking for a yard with paddocks divided as you describe and horses individually turned out, or put into carefully thought-out small herds. Living the dream, but that's not a thing that seems to exist within a sane driving distance Glasgow. My old horse does very well in that kind of arrangement, and I can't tell you how many missions I have gone on looking for it. I have no idea why almost no one does that around here, but they don't. And the two yards I know of that do kind of set-up their fields that way I've had to leave.


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## springer-tb (2 April 2021)

That yard near Cumbernauld is what used to be Horse Haven, it doesn't seem to be the same people involved this time though.

It's not very close to Cumbernauld, more equidistant between Gartcosh and Moodiesburn.


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## PurBee (2 April 2021)

brighteyes said:



			Is what I do - from another ex member on here.



Most people have forgotten this. Farmers have a hard time understanding they don't need feeding like meat of dairy cattle.



It's the very devil, isn't it!



Lol!


Livery people can be very strange.



Stop permanently wrecking your ground and get Mudcontrol mats!!!
		
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At £12k per acre to install of mud mats and never be able to re-seed, mole drain etc again - i’ll stick with 80 quid bag of grass seed!


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## atropa (2 April 2021)

Seen the new old Horse Haven heavily advertised on FB, it seems like livery could be a new venture for the new owners. Sounds potentially like winter turnout is just an hour in a barn while you muck out though.


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## Caol Ila (2 April 2021)

atropa said:



			Seen the new old Horse Haven heavily advertised on FB, it seems like livery could be a new venture for the new owners. Sounds potentially like winter turnout is just an hour in a barn while you muck out though.
		
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I'd guessed that as well. 

In other news, she went out today! No drama. Just grazed and lazed around in the sun, and then came up to the YO to be caught. 

The drive is still a bitch, but she will stay where she is for now.


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## brighteyes (2 April 2021)

PurBee said:



			At £12k per acre to install of mud mats and never be able to re-seed, mole drain etc again - i’ll stick with 80 quid bag of grass seed!
		
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I thought you said you are hiring a digger and putting hardcore down! And of course you can reseed with mudcontrols - you lift them.


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## Caol Ila (4 April 2021)

Hermosa had a very busy today. First, I introduced her to ground poles. She stepped over one like she'd seen a million of them. Then we upgraded to three, and OH, who has never laid a ground pole in his life, placed them, so the striding was...whatever. She cruised over them, no bother. Didn't care about the hitting the odd one with her foot. Next time, I can get creative with configurations. 

Then I did a bit of gentle join-up. Very controversial, apparently. Who knew? It's what we do with everything in the US. I didn't chase her hard or aggressively...None that making it run fast while waving a flag at it. I just put a gentle bit of pressure on her to walk and trot around me, until I could draw her in and she followed me around. Once we achieved that, I praised lavishly, put the halter back on, and took her out of the arena for more brushing.


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## Caol Ila (9 April 2021)

Oh, boy. We have a loading issue. I feared as much when I moved her from Gypsum's yard to current yard because she did not want to go near the bloody ramp. We bribed her on board with a Lickit.

YO's trailer was hooked up and parked with its ramp down today, so I thought we would check it out. My goal was to get her to approach the ramp and maybe put a foot on. No big deal. She, however, wanted nothing to do with it. She planted about two-to-three feet shy of the ramp and refused to go closer. I could see that she was quite anxious, and she wouldn't look at me or the trailer. Kept turning her head to the side. I tried to gently encourage her to approach and got a couple tiny steps. Okay. I moved her away from it a bit and returned to some groundwork, but she had plainly mentally checked out and had gotten really anxious. She's not an explosive, dramatic horse, but you can see when she's unhappy. She won't look at you and puts her ears flat sideways, like an airplane. I did more super basic groundwork, the stuff she's really good at, and then settled on leading her back and forth past the trailer. When we could walk by it without her focusing on it instead of me, I considered it a win and left it there.

I'd sell my firstborn child to have my own trailer. I would hook it up every day, and we would play with it until it was a nothing thing.

I think the driver who moved her from her breeder's yard to my yard scared the crap out of her in order to get her on board. I wasn't there, but I would bet you a million pounds that's what he did. I thought I was doing the right thing, because everyone swears by them, and she was traveling with an older brother, but now I wish OH and I had rented a 3.5 ton and fetched her ourselves. If it takes four hours, it takes four hours. Commercial drivers on a timetable, however, aren't going to spend four hours loading a horse.

With a sensitive, intelligent horse like this, frightening or intimidating them into doing something will leave you in a bigger mess. Hermosa is still being difficult about picking up her hind feet, and YO suggested that we put her in the stocks and try to hold her leg up with a rope. I said that is not going to happen. I think the filly would panic, potentially injure herself, and at the very least, you'd then have messier problems to untangle. I'm going to clicker train the hind feet thing. Started the basics today -- training her to the click with touching a target and teaching the rules of the game (look away for treats... no mugging).


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## TPO (9 April 2021)

I'd be careful insinuating that a Gillies driver used force on/frightened/intimidated  a horse to load it. They and their associates read this forum when their name comes up.

I've used Gillies for a terrible loader who was reactive when stressed and the driver was brilliant. I've used them three other times including for an extremely sensitive mare and for a 2yr old. I couldnt fault the drivers at all, they are excellent IME.

I'd edit your post if you still can


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## milliepops (9 April 2021)

Do you think you've got a *problem* or just a horse that doesn't really understand the question and was maybe on an off day, brain-wise? Has she been in a trailer before?  Pros normally have lorries don't they?

My baby tb was doped to travel to me. I expect him to be useless at loading into my lorry so will expect mild disinterest and not a great deal of enthusiasm about going up the ramp. I doubt I'll ever try him in a trailer until the lorry is rock solid.


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## shortstuff99 (9 April 2021)

The good thing with Spanish horses (and mares too I think), is that they are quick to learn and will give more when they trust you. 

My mare became a terrible loader after an accident in the lorry, but slow and careful training cured her of it. I think with the training you are doing she will soon come round.

When you get a youngster again you start to realise how stressful it can be, like forgetting what puppies are like 🤣.


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## Jeni the dragon (9 April 2021)

The Gillies drivers I have met have been wonderful with horses!  The man who collected Rog was so lovely with him.


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## PurBee (9 April 2021)

With the hinds - if shes fine with you touching/grooming butt and hind legs -use that as an approach to picking up feet. 
My gelding needed re-training hinds, and i found , once i could get to touching his hind legs, that if i groomed his hind legs and then itched all the places he cant reach...behind canon bone, heel crevice, inbetween outside canon ligaments, inside hock crevice...that relaxed him enough to then, after about 5 mins of grooms and itches, to place hand on heel bulb, with your shoulder at their flank, and gently pull up while asking ‘give’...they know what we’re asking, sometimes stubborness ensues...ask again, giving pressure on the heel bulb pulling up, dont give up/in. 
When she gives it, ‘good girl’ pressure comes off immediately from heel bulb, give some itches around the foot, tap the hoof sole, just a few seconds, not long, so you get the chance to decide the hoof goes down, instead of prolonging the first experience and she gets wiggly and decides to pull from you, and begins to learn how to fight hind hoof handling.

If she fights straight away, dont let go, she’ll see it as winning and a useful tactic for the future. Hang on the hoof until she’s still, then at calm, the hoof is released.

If you cant get near her hind legs intimately for grooms/scratches - my gelding was like this initially, totally re-wilded, kicky, double-barrelled me - the whole shabang!....i used a long soft rope, swung it on the floor encircling the hind hoof, held each end of the rope with me standing at his front shoulder, and i gently guided the rope up his hind heel up to heel crevice and pulled towards me gently, asking again ‘give’ as he resisted lifting it. More pressure applied, pull towards you, ‘give’ ask when pressure applied, and they eventually give,   give praise while allowing their hoof to cradle in the rope, lifted. Then when all calm and standing still, lower the rope, praise again.

Then move onto grooms/itches when the rope method is fully accepted without issues.

Trailer loading is something ive got to approach too 😬


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## daffy44 (9 April 2021)

TPO said:



			I'd be careful insinuating that a Gillies driver used force on/frightened/intimidated  a horse to load it. They and their associates read this forum when their name comes up.

I've used Gillies for a terrible loader who was reactive when stressed and the driver was brilliant. I've used them three other times including for an extremely sensitive mare and for a 2yr old. I couldnt fault the drivers at all, they are excellent IME.

I'd edit your post if you still can
		
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Agree with this, I've used Gillies twice for two different yearlings, and the drivers were fantastic, calm, endlessly patient, and couldnt have given the horses a better introduction to loading and traveling, both horses have gone to be excellent loaders and travelers.

I'm sorry you had a bad day with your mare today, but I'd be careful of making assumptions about a company/its employees.


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## bouncing_ball (9 April 2021)

daffy44 said:



			I'm sorry you had a bad day with your mare today, but I'd be careful of making assumptions about a company/its employees.
		
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It could be due to moving home twice in a short time, she associates travel with leaving behind everything she knows and unrelated to how she was loaded. It’s a challenge you’ve got plenty of time to resolve together.


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## daffy44 (9 April 2021)

bouncing_ball said:



			It could be due to moving home twice in a short time, she associates travel with leaving behind everything she knows and unrelated to how she was loaded. It’s a challenge you’ve got plenty of time to resolve together.
		
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I think this is so true, I think often the actual travel is not too bad for the horse, but when they travel and lose everything they know, and dont return home it creates a very stressful association, which takes time and patience to resolve.


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## atropa (9 April 2021)

I think its quite unfair to say that about Gillies on a public forum, especially if you weren't even there to witness the loading. They have an excellent reputation for a reason.
If she had a real problem with travel I doubt you'd have managed to bribe her with a Lickit last time.


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## Northern (9 April 2021)

Caol Ila said:



			I think the Gillies driver who moved her from her breeder's yard to my yard scared the crap out of her in order to get her on board. I wasn't there, but I would bet you a million pounds that's what he did. I thought I was doing the right thing, because everyone swears by Gillies, and she was traveling with an older brother, but now I wish OH and I had rented a 3.5 ton and fetched her ourselves. If it takes four hours, it takes four hours. Commercial drivers on a timetable, however, aren't going to spend four hours loading a horse.
		
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This is unfair, transporters have to deal with a wide range of horses (and I bet most of them do not have appropriate handling) and the majority have the tricks to get them on efficiently but sympathetically. I understand it comes from a place of frustration, but as you would know horses are no robots and she's had a lot of upheaval in her life. Trying to find someone to blame for her acting like a insecure young horse is not a solution. Take her back and start from the very beginning, like she has never seen a trailer or truck in her life. 

She's only been with you a short time, chill out and stop being so hard on yourself (I say that because your frustration comes out in your posts). Spend more time doing the basics, take her for walks, get the ground work perfect and then leave her to be a horse once she's out 24/7. You'll get there, with time


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## Caol Ila (10 April 2021)

My only other experience was my other horse being given no hay during a full day's drive from Newmarket to Co. Durham, which wasn't direct by any means. It was a circuitous adventure through the Midlands picking up horses, and it took about eight hours. How do I know for sure?  I was on the lorry with her, the whole time. When I asked why, I was firmly told that they are not fed on the trucks because they might choke. My horse had crossed the US -- three times in total -- and they definitely had hay on board. The truck that took us from Schiphol to Kent also gave them haylage. So... I dunno...

She approaches unknown things quite bravely. Farm equipment, cows (Gypsum does not even do this one), plastic bags, jump blocks, etc. Unfortunately, she now knows what a lorry/trailer looks like and what it does. With my last youngster, I loaded and unloaded him before I moved him to his new home, but I had my own rig. Did not have that option here.

Unfortunately, we might have to jump that hurdle sooner rather than later if we want (a) 24/7 turn-out (b) me not going insane because my 80 mile round trip commute sucks. I'm reverting to my New York City levels of road rage.

I'm not that frustrated with the horse herself. The horse really is fine. I think people only pick up on the glitches. I write that she walked over poles nae bother, and that picks up a few likes but that's it. Which is also fine. As all writers know, the good sh1t's bloody boring.

That said, I'm still pi$$ed at this whole situation. If we'd been able to figure out something at Gypsum's yard, I think I would be enjoying her, a lot. And I could have made a better yard choice if I had given myself more time to look, but I felt like I needed to move ASAP. In reality, another few days would not have made a damned bit of difference because the filly was coping, but that wee bit of extra time would have got us to a place a hell of a lot closer (albeit still dealing with the sh1tshow that is the M8), with a great youngstock turnout set-up.

Feet-wise, she's perfectly happy for you to brush and stroke her hind legs. But not even the farrier could hold onto her hind foot while she was wildly kicking out. If he can't, I have no chance. I think my +R approach will probably work.


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## milliepops (10 April 2021)

She's had a lot of change in a fairly short space of time. It sounds like she wasn't doing much except hanging out with her mates at the stud and she's gone to new places with new people and embarked on quite a bit of new learning... which is productive but I just wonder whether you need to step it back a notch and let her absorb what she's already learned?

 It just comes across a bit desperate, northern is right, the frustration of your situation is palpable and I understand that.  But I think she's 2? Even older young horses can have miniscule attention spans and get a bit frazzled by things. It must be frustrating with gypsum being off buy my feeling would be that this mare can't fill the gap quite yet.


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## CanteringCarrot (10 April 2021)

Not sure if you're interested but here's a short story...

My PRE came from Spain to Germany as a coming 5 year old. This was his first traveling, which took 5 or so days, with a few stops in France. John Parker International did a really great job. The video of him getting on his first lorry was a bit comedic (really dramatic high stepping on the ramp). Anyway, he had been backed, had a good basic walk, trot, and canter. Had hacked a time or two.

When I went to ride him it was as if he had never been backed...if I didn't have several videos I would've thought I had been fooled! I basically had to re-start him (laying over his back, accepting weight, OH being a great ground person for me). It took a bit of time, not going to lie.

He knew riding, mounting, and whatnot, and I don't think he had a bad experience, I think he was just so unsure and a lot was new (me, the yard, the other people, etc.). So he had a reintroduction to riding. The same could've been said for trailering, but he just followed me right on. I think because of all of the ground work, time spent, and "connection" that we had built with the whole rebacking thing. He's not the bravest of creatures, but is really brave about many things that cause other horses to lose the plot.

Anyway, my point is, she could've had an ok experience with her traveling but then just felt overwhelmed or unsure about everything new. She didn't/doesn't know your expectations, and things (her home) change every time she gets off the lorry/trailer. It is a big life change for her. So it's possible that they sometimes go a bit backwards or change their feelings toward something.

However, once you get her "with you" and solid on the ground (no idea about join up, so can't comment on that) I think you'll find that your connection with this horse is like no other. Someone said this to me about Iberians and I rolled my eyes and thought "cheesy" but then...it's true 😅

The loading will come and there's a lot of work you can do without a trailer to prep for loading. She's 2, and even if she were 8, don't fret too much. Short positive sessions will work in the end. Even the slightest progress is progress. Don't overwhelm yourself or the horse with expectations. You'll get there. Some horses at 2 are completely feral, so you're ahead of the game 

I can understand your yard frustrations. People love to keep horses in small stables/boxes here 24/7 at least 6 months out of the year. It's so common and drives me up a wall. It becomes a "best of the worst" type game sometimes, and you're at mercy of the YO if livery is your only option. It's mentally draining.

I wish you the best of luck, I'm sure you'll get it all sorted out eventually.


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## Tiddlypom (10 April 2021)

Reading your posts, with their increasing levels of frustration, I'm afraid that I am of the opinion that this youngster and your wants and needs at this time are not a good fit.

You need something up and running sooner that she will be.

There's no shame in selling her on to someone with the time and facilities to do her justice. She's a lovely filly, but IMHO she's not for you at this time. Youngsters have short attention spans, they don't want or need a lot of handling/in hand work at that age. The loading issue is a minor one, common with babies, and is one to be expected and calmly worked through.

Find something that is already backed and being ridden out, and that you can crack on with riding from the off.


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## ycbm (10 April 2021)

When I brought my first warmblood home I saw him loaded and he went on easily and travelled quietly.

The next time I tried to load him he wouldn't go on. And when I retrained him to load  and started travelling him he trashed the lorry trying to get out.  

I don't think you can blame previous bad handling for a horse not loading unless you were there and saw it.  
.


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## ycbm (10 April 2021)

CI when I bought my mare she was 7 and unbroken.  The stud told me they never break them before 6 because they aren't mature enough to do much until then. Since then,  I've heard quite a few comments about how many PREs go lame,  and I wonder if it's connected. 

There's a possibility your fillly won't be ready to do much for 3 or 4 years,  and I'm another who thinks,  sadly,  that you might have the wrong horse,  and would be better with an older one.  

I'm really sorry if that's not helpful,  but your posts sound sad about the situation.


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## CanteringCarrot (10 April 2021)

Edit: that's also true, the maturity thing. She may or may not be ready for much at a certain again.


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## milliepops (10 April 2021)

Even older more established horses go backwards after a change of environment.  I moved mine last August (to a place they had both visited frequently) and the TB instantly lost about 6 months of learning, it just fell out of his head. The advanced horse went feral. I think because they seem to do ok we overlook what effect it has on them deep down. 

I understand the desire to do stuff with a new horse esp when the older one approaches retirement but I think most people find a blank canvas youngster does ok without years of pre-backing prep.  so I'd just want to tick off the hoof trimming and slowly chip away towards loading, and thats probably plenty for a young mind to be getting on with.

CI I'm guessing you're not wanting to sell her, so can the yard do full livery a few days a week to save you the travel, and then you do the other days? I think before you moved there you said they were experienced with youngsters so presumably that might work?


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## Lyle (10 April 2021)

FWIW a lot of the youngsters I've worked with can be bribed easily onto a trailer once/twice, but after that they obviously start to question the process, especially if the journey has resulted in a move from their homes. 
groundwork, groundwork, groundwork. Wouldn't be looking at loading until you have the respect, and trust from the ground. The fact that legs are difficult is a huge red flag that the respect and trust isn't there. 

Hook into it with your filly, getting them great on the ground sets them up to being an amazing partner for the future


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## southerncomfort (10 April 2021)

For what it's worth, when I bought my youngster from his breeder I basically turned him out for a month and did nothing but bring him in for a brush and a feed and check he still led ok. I just wanted him to relax and begin to see this as his home, and see us as his humans before I put any pressure on him.

Moving from the only home they've ever known is a huge thing for them. They've lost their buddies, their humans and all certainty about their day to day life.

Honestly, I think taking a step back, letting both of you relax and get to know each other without any pressure will be hugely beneficial.

It's not a huge disaster if you put the farrier off for a bit. Let her get to know you and trust you and all these things will be much easier to achieve.


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## Caol Ila (10 April 2021)

The front feet were hugely desperate -- the toes were curling. The hinds are long, but not curling yet.

I really can't say she is the wrong horse. Yet. I don't know. But I'm just not sure she is in the right place. They have had young warmbloods, but I was not happy about their plan of putting her in the stocks to force the hind feet issue. She's only getting all day turnout on days when it's not too wet and not too windy. Which can't be relied on in Scotland. Come fall, she will have to move again because there is NO winter turnout. If I sold her, she would also have to move, so....

The yard I'd wish I had found in time has 24/7 herd turnout, year round. In the winter, they are on hardstanding paddocks at night, but still with their little herds of two to four.


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## southerncomfort (10 April 2021)

Might be worth sedating for the first couple of trims just to make it less stressful and it avoids you having to force the issue at a time when you are trying to build trust.


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## tristar (10 April 2021)

i got a 5 year old last year, never picked up his feet before, the hinds were impossible, i would ask for lift he would stamp, so i let him, then just kept patting the rear end running my hand down his leg, and left it  at that for the day, eventually he would lift and i would hold for a few seconds then let him stamp, it was untidy, gradually he would pick up his hoof when i ran my hand down his leg and rest his toe, this took months to complete, one day i asked , he lifted and rested his toe so i held and lifted his leg and picked out his hoof, now he is fine, he was good with the fronts so i would pick out the front then casually touch the  hinds, the important thing for me was he is good for the rest of his life when he needs his feet lifted,  all this was going on while he was being lunged and long reined, no sweat and understanding of what is being asked, balance and habit.

just saying because any normal person teaches their youngsters to lift their feet  when they are still on the mare , well we do

hope she improves soon

with the travelling you were not there so you don`t know, anything good or bad could have happened.

if you can in the future try loading her in a lorry with another horse in there already, who was loaded in her sight, i`sure you are right about having your own trailer, then you could have fed her on the ramp every day to get her feet on a least.

i dont know really , but try taking some steps backwards and relax,  find something she likes and is good at and have some fun and play time together.

i know i go on a bit,  but i wish i could take some of the stress away or help


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## milliepops (10 April 2021)

southerncomfort said:



			Might be worth sedating for the first couple of trims just to make it less stressful and it avoids you having to force the issue at a time when you are trying to build trust.
		
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i was thinking this, too, if it's a really pressing issue and she's finding it difficult, then it would be easier to just get them done even though it's not the 100% perfect way, then there is plenty of time to be teaching her the right way before next time.
  if she's that bad I would wonder whether she'd been doped previously to just get it done, same as mine was given a couple of clicks to load him when the transporter came rather than faff about for hours.

Horses always pick up on it when you're feeling a bit *argh* about something, when there's a deadline of some kind, even if you think you're covering it up they always seem to suss it out and react accordingly  if you can deal with the deadline everyone can breathe a sigh of relief and start again without any pressure.


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## paddy555 (10 April 2021)

Caol Ila said:



			She's only getting all day turnout on days when it's not too wet and not too windy. Which can't be relied on in Scotland. Come fall, she will have to move again because there is NO winter turnout. 

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I have sat on my hands on this thread. However, the above is simply not good enough for a 2yo IMHO. Sorry, I am not being rude but the needs of the horse especially a youngster come above all else. What you do with a youngster will be reflected  in the adult horse. In this case you are basically going to be sitting waiting for at least 3 and possibly 4 years until you have the riding horse you want. All  the problems created along the way, insecurity, nervousness and everything else will come to the fore. 


ATM until she can be turned out, live in either a herd of youngsters or with an adult full time baby sitter who will look after her for a couple of years I cannot see  the point of training especially join up. She just looks sad and confused in the join up pics. Many youngsters are bad about the back legs. It takes a very long time before they are confident, months sometimes. 
I have had a lot of youngsters (all of whom I have done lots with) but they have all had a very stable and consistent background. I am not one of those who thinks youngsters should just be turned out with a herd. Mine love working but they have a very secure home life to fall back on. Nothing is unexpected. They live in the same place, nothing changes. A couple of moves of home in a month is going to affect any youngster badly. I am not sure why she needs to learn to load ATM. Getting her happy and secure would be much higher on my list. 


It is a sad fact that a lot of livery yards cannot cater for youngsters. They are not set up to do so in the UK so many people at livery just don't have the chance of a youngster. 

I looked at your link to the stud she came from and I was a bit surprised. I understand from your comments you are N Glasgow. I expected the stud to be the other end of England but it is only S Glasgow. It also offers 3 sorts of livery. Presumably if they have accommodated Hermosa's needs for 2 years they could continue to do so. Why can't she go back there on livery for a couple of years. It may be further for you to travel but she would be in an environment she is used to so that she can grow up. 

I am afraid I really wonder if she is the horse for you. It is going to take a lot of patience to wait for several years. Youngsters are not consistent about working (in hand before they are broken) My youngster came at 7 mths and now, just short of 6, he has become the horse I wanted. He was rideable before but now he is "giving" what I had hoped he would not just "being ridden" because that is what he was broken to do. 

In the meantime he has done loads even as a yearling and 2yo. However that was when he wanted to learn. There were spells when he didn't want to learn and it was a case of chuck him out in the field for a couple of months to just let him grow up. 
I realise that is an unpopular question for you but are you content to just wait, turn Hermosa out for spells and do nothing for months whilst she grows and mentally matures?


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## chaps89 (10 April 2021)

If you have now found a yard with 24/7 herd turnout, whilst another move is not great, would it not be better in the long run for her? She can be a horse, have some basic handling, the pressure can come off and who knows, you may even start enjoying it 
I've been where you are where a yard has changed and you just want it back to how it used to be. It's very easy to stay and just hope/live on a memory of what it could be like. Unfortunately that doesn't help and makes the present worse always wishing for how it could be. Without wishing to sound blunt it doesn't sound like Gypsums yard is ever going to suit, too many changes that just aren't working for you.


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## Boulty (10 April 2021)

If you think you've found somewhere that would be a better option, which you wish you'd found earlier then I'd move her there if you can. You're going to need to move her before Winter anyway & if you do it now she's the whole Summer to get settled in a herd (Winter is always a PITA) time to be doing introductions in smaller or more muddy fields!). She's not getting what you thought she'd be getting where she is now & I wouldn't be happy with that setup for a youngster.  

If she's only travelled in lorries before I really wouldn't worry that she's unsure about a trailer (equally if she's only been in a big lorry I wouldn't worry if she's not sure about a 3.5 ton... The orange one took ages to "get" side loading lorries as he'd only been in trailers or 7.5 ton & he always hated anything with a steep ramp). I wouldn't take it as a sign she was mistreated unless someone saw something happen. 

I think you're right re doing little & often with the feet, safer than risking her freaking out & injuring someone or herself (I'm sure I don't need to say this but make sure you're doing your foot handling on a decent surface... Numpty features went down on his knees a few times before he twigged that he couldn't lift his opposite leg up as normal when I was holding the other one as I can't support his full weight / how to shift his weight when stood on 3 legs... Didn't bother him & he was fine but if we'd been on concrete he might have hurt himself)


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## PurBee (10 April 2021)

CanteringCarrot said:



			Edit: that's also true, the maturity thing. She may or may not be ready for much at a certain again.
		
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my arab gelding wasn’t ready for much full-time learning until around 4ish, when his brain could actually hold a thought Longer than a second!


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## Caol Ila (10 April 2021)

I will know whether or not the 24/7 yard has space on Monday. 

OH and I had a long chat. We feel the best way forward is to move Hermosa to that yard as and when we can, and keep Gypsum comfortable for as long as possible. I don't think she has another winter, given she goes very lame when it's cold and wet, so at best, that will be through the summer. If that. When we can't do that anymore, buy a green (but backed) cob-type all-rounder horse, 5/6 years old, and put some mileage into it for a couple years. When Hermosa's old enough to do more and be in more or less full time work, sell it (or find a sharer if I like it too much...lol) to a kid or adult who wants that 7-9 year old sensible, well-trained, not-scary horse.


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## Dexter (10 April 2021)

I'm sorry to hear about Gypsum. I'll be in that situation shortly and I'm upset just thinking about it coming.

You could buy the highland. A ridden highland who has been well schooled and educated is going to be hugely in demand.


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## Caol Ila (11 April 2021)

I would get what looks like would work. As it doesn't have to be a horse I fall in love with or looks like it might be able to do Advanced Medium, I'm less fussy.

Everything about watching your old horse deteriorate totally sucks. Making good decisions about what you want v. what you can afford also sucks. Most nice, broke PREs are like five figures.

Re: feet. The first time Hermosa had her feet handled, ever, was the vet check. Her breeder did not handle them at all. No farriers. Nada. Hence the curling toes in the front. As far as the back feet go, she might as well be a mustang in a BLM pen.


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## Wishfilly (11 April 2021)

I'm sorry about Gypsum. It must be so hard to be facing losing a horse you've had for so long and obviously love so much.


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## tristar (11 April 2021)

Caol Ila said:



			I would get what looks like would work. As it doesn't have to be a horse I fall in love with or looks like it might be able to do Advanced Medium, I'm less fussy.

Everything about watching your old horse deteriorate totally sucks. Making good decisions about what you want v. what you can afford also sucks. Most nice, broke PREs are like five figures.

Re: feet. The first time Hermosa had her feet handled, ever, was the vet check. Her breeder did not handle them at all. No farriers. Nada. Hence the curling toes in the front. As far as the back feet go, she might as well be a mustang in a BLM pen.
		
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that is terrible about the feet


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## Inda (11 April 2021)

You’ll get there. I got there.

Carmins feet needed done as well as her teeth, she had some points that needed rasped down. It’s hard when they don’t even know what a brush is.

You’re ahead of me, it took 6 months of standing around in the youngstock field before I could get a head collar on her, my personal best/worst was 6 1/2 hours. And that was for me, she was notorious for not coming near anyone else.

I would recommend getting her use to a rug before the winter, rugs were my biggest battle.

You’ve met Carmin, she’s a big soft lump who thinks everyone is her friend. It’s not impossible but it’s hard work.

Although I had trimmer out for her feet who called her feral... they were not invited back.


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## Caol Ila (11 April 2021)

Oh, wow. Yeah, she takes a headcollar like any veteran horse and comes to you in the field and the stable to be caught, she picks up her front feet and lets you pick them out, she ties better than a lot of horses, and she enjoys being brushed. Haven't faced the rug thing yet, but I will stand with her and drape an arm over her back and down the other side. I can stroke her all over, with my hand, a brush, and even with a dressage whip. She doesn't mind this.

When I first got her, she would snatch her head away when you tried to put the headcollar on. But she stopped doing that after about three days. However, at the vet check, it took her breeder about twenty minutes of chasing her around the stable to get it on (and I still bought it??).

TBH, most of the work we are doing is basic leading work. Cementing the whole yield from pressure thing and respecting my space thing and not running me over thing. The horse only learned to lead (and the rest) after I bought her. She is coming on leaps and bounds (the little bit of join-up helped) with it, and leads like a trained horse most of the time now.

Other than the yard faff, the hind feet really are the biggest issue right now.


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## PurBee (11 April 2021)

It’s amazing that she’s totally cool with front feet handling yet so resistant to hinds. I guess with them being rear-driven animals, those hinds get them out of trouble, so it suggests, that she’s possibly not as relaxed as she seems to be. She wants her hinds for what theyre intended for as she may need to run at any time, and ‘giving them up’ to someone to handle, means she cant run anywhere.

As she’s allowing body touching willingly, and leading well etc...i’d definitely try the soft rope method i detailed in an earlier post. It allows the slow introduction to hind lifting, it enables you to be in a safe position, at her neck to also be encouraging to her, it enables you to gently coax a few inches lift, then lower the foot, in seconds. It also means to her mind, no-one is grabbing hold of her foot and leg, preventing her from running away. 

The cowboy method of grab hold, and fight, and never let go until they calm down, is tricky because it sometimes tells the horse, that everything was ok in the end, and some horses remember the fight and it frightens them more, making the next time impossible. My gelding experienced the cowboy method with a farrier and he decided no-one was going to handle those rears. So slow and steady, rope method, was my approach. 
When i got to lift his feet with hands and if he tried to get loose, i didnt grip his fetlock, just had the tip of his hoof in my hand and moved back and forwards with his movement. He would stop the resistance and i’d carry on trimming 10 seconds, then drop the hoof when I wanted it down. I had to teach him i wasnt going to vice-grip him like he had before and never let go. 

At a push for a really resistant horse, food is a great encourager. Some agree with treats, others dont. Its up to you and the situation and the horse. With her fronts, ask for a foot, which she easily gives, then praise and give a treat. Like with training a dog. Do the other front foot, praise, treat. Ask her to yield back, praise, treat. Walk-on, praise, treat. All the stuff she does willingly easily now, use that as a basis for praise, treat. She’ll soon understand, like a dog, that when asked to do something, if she does it, she gets food rewarded. 
Then move onto the rope for the rear feet, gently put pressure on the heel bulb, using the same word you use for the fronts, and she’ll get the ask of her, and that moment she knows she’ll be rewarded if done as asked.

Some might think if you use this method, they’ll always want treats when asked to do anything but like with dogs, they dont, they end up becoming accustomed to doing as asked and verbal praise becomes the reward. If everyday, for everything you ask of them you give food reward youll train the dependence on food reward, so i’ve never used food reward as a constant stimulator. Just adhoc, for tricky stuff.  Sometimes a mini 10 minute handling session, they get a bundle of hay afterwards. Thats like a reward but they never know theyre going to get it. So they learn to relate working with me with good feelings, rather than stress. Again, only used for stressy, difficult animals. 
So as a last resort for really tricky situations where there’s no give from the animal, food treat training is a go-to method, if other methods aren’t helping.

As Inda said, it’s a slow process but you’ll get there. Youngsters really are good at teaching patience! I had a short supply before working with my youngster. Now im so laid-back and patient im practically horizontal 😂


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## tristar (11 April 2021)

Caol Ila said:



			Oh, wow. Yeah, she takes a headcollar like any veteran horse and comes to you in the field and the stable to be caught, she picks up her front feet and lets you pick them out, she ties better than a lot of horses, and she enjoys being brushed. Haven't faced the rug thing yet, but I will stand with her and drape an arm over her back and down the other side. I can stroke her all over, with my hand, a brush, and even with a dressage whip. She doesn't mind this.

When I first got her, she would snatch her head away when you tried to put the headcollar on. But she stopped doing that after about three days. However, at the vet check, it took her breeder about twenty minutes of chasing her around the stable to get it on (and I still bought it??).

TBH, most of the work we are doing is basic leading work. Cementing the whole yield from pressure thing and respecting my space thing and not running me over thing. The horse only learned to lead (and the rest) after I bought her. She is coming on leaps and bounds (the little bit of join-up helped) with it, and leads like a trained horse most of the time now.

Other than the yard faff, the hind feet really are the biggest issue right now.
		
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you are doing great, don`t worry about the hinds, don`t push too hard, herself or yourself, one day at a time, one week at a time, let HER work it out.


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## paddy555 (11 April 2021)

re the hinds.. Do you have access to concrete which is the best foot trimmer of all or is she safe to lead on tarmac, even a drive. 
I took on a 6yo 16hh rescue, Spanish X stallion. His feet were untrimmed, he had been very cruelly treated and it took me a very long time even to pick the fronts up. One back I never managed. I sorted  the trimming (I can trim  my own so he had every resource and time available to him but still couldn't) by putting him on a concrete yard for part of the time. He had beautifully trimmed feet and I was quite safe thanks to the concrete.


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## Caol Ila (11 April 2021)

She has to go on part of a road to get to the turnout field, so she is safe to lead on roads, and when I tie her outside her stable, she's on concrete.


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## Caol Ila (19 April 2021)

Tell me what to do. Having Hermosa forty miles from my other horse isn't working for me, but I've found a space at a yard that seems pretty good, and she will be out 24/7 all summer. It's cheap as well, as it's grass livery. Seems simple, right?

But it never is that. The other day, as I'm driving into my old girl's yard, I see a livery's (who happens to be good pals with YM) two-year old and his three-year old buddy in one of the paddocks. I ascertain that he's not going to be here 'long term,' whatever that means, but still. Quite a 180 from being told that they don't want youngstock. I've drafted an email to the current YM, nicely asking if my filly could possibly go back there now that there's more grass, yadda, yadda, as I still like the yard, despite our differences, and it's the closest one to my flat, plus having two horses in the same place would be nice. I'm hesitant about sending it. 24/7 yard is not desperately far, it would save a ton of money, and the YO will introduce my horse to their herd with proper introductions and I won't have to herd cats (aka, other liveries) to make that happen.


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## milliepops (19 April 2021)

I honestly wouldn't go anywhere at this point, that wasn't able to give a fairly cast-iron long term plan.   Otherwise you might find yourself looking for somewhere else in the autumn. 

obviously things change for unforseen reasons but this place seems to change plans fairly often, plus if it's the YM's best buddy then it may well be that it's one of those special arrangements that normal clients never get offered.


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## Annagain (19 April 2021)

Caol Ila said:



			Tell me what to do. Having Hermosa forty miles from my other horse isn't working for me, but I've found a space at a yard that seems pretty good, and she will be out 24/7 all summer. It's cheap as well, as it's grass livery. Seems simple, right?

But it never is that. The other day, as I'm driving into my old girl's yard, I see a livery's (who happens to be good pals with YM) two-year old and his three-year old buddy in one of the paddocks. I ascertain that he's not going to be here 'long term,' whatever that means, but still. Quite a 180 from being told that they don't want youngstock. I've drafted an email to the current YM, nicely asking if my filly could possibly go back there now that there's more grass, yadda, yadda, as I still like the yard, despite our differences, and it's the closest one to my flat, plus having two horses in the same place would be nice. I'm hesitant about sending it. 24/7 yard is not desperately far, it would save a ton of money, and the YO will introduce my horse to their herd with proper introductions and I won't have to herd cats (aka, other liveries) to make that happen.
		
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If you don't ask, you don't get. There's no harm in asking and at least you'd know where you stand. You could still opt for the other yard even if they say yes. But I also agree with mp - I wouldn't got to either place unless you see it as at least a semi-permanent move.


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## Caol Ila (19 April 2021)

milliepops said:



			I honestly wouldn't go anywhere at this point, that wasn't able to give a fairly cast-iron long term plan.   Otherwise you might find yourself looking for somewhere else in the autumn.

obviously things change for unforseen reasons but this place seems to change plans fairly often, plus if it's the YM's best buddy then it may well be that it's one of those special arrangements that normal clients never get offered.
		
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Ugh, it's who you know, right?

24/7 yard does have a cast-iron long term plan. She could easily stay there until next spring, or even longer, and she will stay until at least spring 2022 if we go there. Their winter turnout arrangement is also pretty sweet. Gypsum's yard would probably not offer a cast iron plan for introducing a youngster into their adult mare herd. Their view in early March was that I should be able to arrange this with the other mare owners, but without support from yard staff (which one would need, given half the horses are on full livery) or even a paddock to do it in. Who knows if that has changed?

The filly's current yard has no winter turn-out, so if she were to stay there now, I would be looking for somewhere else in the autumn anyway.


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## milliepops (19 April 2021)

therefore I would stick with your plan re the 24/7 TO place  I think and not try and put her on a yard that is not really set up for babies unless you're in the in-crowd.  if you ask, they might say yes just to avoid confrontation but then withdraw the offer when it becomes inconvenient or some other arbitrary reason.  It doesn't seem like they are terribly keen on making exceptions for all clients so why set yourself up for more hassle?

It's the same all over, I can't complain, I'm an in-crowd where I am, as YO doesn't really *do* livery but she has me....  I've been the out-crowd in other places.


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## Caol Ila (19 April 2021)

Yeah, you're probably right. The youngster will get lots of experience living in an adult herd at this other place and grow up a bit, which will set her up for life and being slung into adult herds. That is a really common thing around here. I have found that many places do it that way (with Gypsum, I had no idea what introduction SOP was in this corner of the world because she hasn't lived in a herd in 20 years).

How do you get to be in the in-crowd? I clearly suck at this (c.f. my academic career). But that's probably for another thread.


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## milliepops (19 April 2021)

Hand over about 50% of my salary to the training yard next door  long long term trouble free client, that's me


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## Caol Ila (19 April 2021)

I tried that at Gypsum's previous yard, but my horse wasn't trouble free, so even after eight years, he didn't like me.


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## milliepops (19 April 2021)

yeah i have a tricky horse but she is neutralised by my other one, you wouldn't really know how awkward she is esp at the moment as her current friend is retired so she is never left alone, ever ever ever ever. Not many people opt to keep a spare horse to save other people from hassle though  see what a nice client I am? haha.

I see why it would be tempting to try and take her to Gypsum's yard, i have my horses in 3 different places and its a PITA... but I do think you have to be really careful to be realistic and not sink into wishful thinking. Yeah it would be really nice if they would change the way they do things to accommodate Hermosa and make life easy, but the chances are, even if they do it will only be for as long as it suits THEM, and realistically as clients we have no say about decisions that get made. They've already shown you how they work at that yard.  the choice is to accept it or move, as you've already found. so if they say you could have a paddock for her, I'd want it written into a contract how long for, what space is yours, how it is to be managed and so on before even thinking about it... they will probably see that as an unattractive prospect. Hence thinking the other yard is the better bet, don't be trying to get a place to bend to your needs, go somewhere that can already meet them.


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## Caol Ila (19 April 2021)

I think once Hermosa is four, or nearly four, with a year of experience in different herds, she will be able to toe the line just fine at Gypsum's yard. Chances are high that I'll still have a horse there one way or another. 

Two yards is better than three. Why are yours so spread out?


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## milliepops (19 April 2021)

Caol Ila said:



			I think once Hermosa is four, or nearly four, with a year of experience in different herds, she will be able to toe the line just fine at Gypsum's yard. Chances are high that I'll still have a horse there one way or another. 

Two yards is better than three. Why are yours so spread out?
		
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Different groups have different needs.  
The babies are in one field which has a foaling sized stable, hardstanding, generator for electric etc. Field only big enough for 2 though, so the oldies live the other side of the village on a bigger acreage but no facilities except water.
Ridden horse off site for mega facilities and company for me 😄


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## windand rain (19 April 2021)

It might not work putting babies together either I took on a young livery to krrp kitten company but it is an out and out bully so Kitten is with the 25 year old and the young livery is with the black git gelding. He really does earn his keep as a companion only don't tresspass on his property if you value your life. He is great with new horses and young horses just not their owners. I would try to get her with your other horse if possible but not if she will be bullied and they make it difficult to get her settled


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## chaps89 (19 April 2021)

Exactly what @milliepops says.
I have a special needs horse, who also has her own companion pet. It's a pain but that's my problem, not a YO's.
It does not work going to a yard that says they will accommodate you by doing things they don't normally, because then you are the odd one out and then you stand out for the wrong reason, and sooner or later (and it's very often sooner!) They get fed up and you have to move on.
It might be nice to have them on the same yard sure but it doesn't sound the right move right now, the 24/7 yard is presumably closer than the current 40 miles which is a win in it's own right.


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## Caol Ila (19 April 2021)

The last thing I want is her learning social skills from my other horse. There are reasons why she's been in individual turn-out for 20 years. She's less homicidal (equicidal?) these days and she is out with a buddy, but I think it's just because she's too arthritic to chase a horse into a corner, pin it there, and then double-barrel the crap out of it. She's also only out two hours per day, which is not ideal for a youngster (or for her...but it's better than fencewalking).

Hermosa will be in a mature mare herd on a big acreage at the new yard, but will be introduced slowly. Everything is on full livery, so YO told me that she will have her in a paddock with something suitable for a day or two, then put them in the field and add the rest, one by one. And she will be a hell of a lot closer to me. Only 14 miles away. That's a lot more livable than 40! Current yard says she's made friends with some of the older mares over the fence.


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## SEL (20 April 2021)

chaps89 said:



			Exactly what @milliepops says.
I have a special needs horse, who also has her own companion pet. It's a pain but that's my problem, not a YO's.
It does not work going to a yard that says they will accommodate you by doing things they don't normally, because then you are the odd one out and then you stand out for the wrong reason, and sooner or later (and it's very often sooner!) They get fed up and you have to move on.
It might be nice to have them on the same yard sure but it doesn't sound the right move right now, the 24/7 yard is presumably closer than the current 40 miles which is a win in it's own right.
		
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I'm another who has a pet to keep my mare company because she's neurotic and it avoids having to turn out with other people. I've also found out that no matter how explicit you are about your needs if it doesn't suit a specific YO then it doesn't happen!

Having horses on separate yards is a PITA but from reading through I think that's your best answer right now


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## Jellymoon (20 April 2021)

I haven’t been on for a while so haven’t caught up with the latest, but I’m interested in your story because I like Spanish horses and understand why you bought one! And I also get that feeling of thinking you’ve done the wrong thing, as I said before! (FWIW I don’t think you’ve done the wrong thing, and I think the reasons you stated for buying a Spanish are why I don’t think you would be fulfilled with a cob-type)
Are you sorted now and feeling better?


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## Caol Ila (20 April 2021)

Jellymoon said:



			I haven’t been on for a while so haven’t caught up with the latest, but I’m interested in your story because I like Spanish horses and understand why you bought one! And I also get that feeling of thinking you’ve done the wrong thing, as I said before! (FWIW I don’t think you’ve done the wrong thing, and I think the reasons you stated for buying a Spanish are why I don’t think you would be fulfilled with a cob-type)
Are you sorted now and feeling better?
		
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Hopefully on the way to being sorted. The horse being almost 40 miles away is driving me crazy, and I found a closer yard that's suitable. I feel like an idiot for not finding this yard when I was first looking and in a major flap about it all, but c'est la vie. She will have a lot more time on this yard to just be a horse, which will be good for her.


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## CanteringCarrot (20 April 2021)

Glad to hear you found a solution. I wish you and Hermosa the best at her new yard.


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## holeymoley (20 April 2021)

It sounds like the 24/7 yard would now suit her the best.


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## Caol Ila (20 April 2021)

I've arranged transport, and I'm in the process of arranging a vet to draw blood for a strangles test. Have to use yard vets because she's out of my vet's range at the moment. Added faff. They travel pretty far, but not to South Ayrshire.

Led her over more poles today. She really likes poles. Back feet are still a work in progress. Currently going with the advice given on here of having her lift her leg and just following with my hand when she puts it down, but without cowboying it -- grabbing foot and hanging on for dear life. Some days, she rests the toe for a moment when she puts it back down.


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## Caol Ila (21 April 2021)

Non-horsey (increasingly horsey) OH sometimes works near Hermosa's yard when not working from home. One of the reasons she's there. He stops by on days he's down in Kilmarnock, but normally just brushes her loose in the stable, as her stable manners are safe and reliable. He's been taking care of Gypsum on days I'm down with Hermosa, so he has been getting horse-handling experience, albeit with the 28-year old. But today, YO asked if he wanted to lead the filly about, under supervision. He did. And he even managed to successfully work on her little habit of dropping behind you when led, rather than keeping her head at your shoulder. He's always had a good way with critters.


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## Caol Ila (23 April 2021)

We wore a thing today.






Her head is losing some of the baby look. I think she will be a very pretty mare.


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## windand rain (23 April 2021)

She is beautiful


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## Meowy Catkin (23 April 2021)

Knowing that you have a collection of brightly coloured and patterned saddle pads, I'm slightly surprised to see a plain one. Maybe a swallow tailed one made from damask or brocade with metallic braid trim next time?


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## Caol Ila (23 April 2021)

Meowy Catkin said:



			Knowing that you have a collection of brightly coloured and patterned saddle pads, I'm slightly surprised to see a plain one. Maybe a swallow tailed one made from damask or brocade with metallic braid trim next time? 

Click to expand...

Yeah, that's because it isn't mine, LOL. I don't own any as boring as this one. All mine are at Gypsum's yard. I just grabbed one of the YO's for training purposes.  The horse has not worn any clothing, ever, so I thought a saddle pad would be a less intimidating start than a rug.


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## Inda (23 April 2021)

Good start! We would have had a melt down with that 😊


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## Caol Ila (23 April 2021)

Inda said:



			Good start! We would have had a melt down with that 😊
		
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That gives me hope that she will be fine when we graduate to rugs.  I'd showed her a saddle pad last week without putting it on her, and she eyed it in a worried manner and then I stroked her with it. Today, I just chucked it on her back and she was totally chilled. 

The back feet remain a slow process. She rested the left hind after I did my half-assed pick up today, which was a win, and let me hold the right for a couple seconds before she remembered she wasn't happy. It's funny what these semi-unhandled babies think is a thing, and what isn't. So individual!


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## Inda (24 April 2021)

it’s a shame for her that she’s experienced so little as a baby. youll get there and have lovely horse at the end ❤️


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## shortstuff99 (24 April 2021)

If it helps my (now 13) Spanish mare came to me un handled at nearly 4 years old and a big 15.3. If I tried her feet she would try and kill me, grooming tried to kill me, leading tried to kill me 🤣. Now she is the best to handle, just took it calmly and consistently. 

You really seem to know what you are doing so I wouldn't worry, she looks like she will be awesome!


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## tristar (24 April 2021)

Caol Ila said:



			That gives me hope that she will be fine when we graduate to rugs.  I'd showed her a saddle pad last week without putting it on her, and she eyed it in a worried manner and then I stroked her with it. Today, I just chucked it on her back and she was totally chilled. 

The back feet remain a slow process. She rested the left hind after I did my half-assed pick up today, which was a win, and let me hold the right for a couple seconds before she remembered she wasn't happy. It's funny what these semi-unhandled babies think is a thing, and what isn't. So individual!
		
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i pick up the foot hold the fetlock well  bent,  and not too high, and start picking out the foot, while talking loudly but softly using their name to distract them from dropping the leg


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## holeymoley (26 April 2021)

Did you move? Can’t remember if you did or were going to look. She’s very pretty!


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## Caol Ila (26 April 2021)

I'm hopefully going to move on Saturday.


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## Caol Ila (27 April 2021)

Our move could be delayed. Blah. She has a respiratory thing -- cough and nasal discharge. Vet has taken swabs and bloods to test for everything. She thinks most likely cause is allergies due to being in a lot and being fed dusty hay from a hayrack where the horse had to reach upwards. We only changed to floor-fed haylage over the weekend. Hopefully it's just that and nothing sinister.


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## Meowy Catkin (27 April 2021)

I hope she's OK and that you can move soon.


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## Caol Ila (1 May 2021)

One horse moved. She did not want to have anything to do with the lorry, but my God, it makes such a huge difference when there's only two of you trying to load a recalcitrant horse, and you're both on the same page and working perfectly as a team in terms of timing pressure/release. She tried planting. She tried going backwards. She tried standing on two legs (very balanced, almost a levade, but also, no.... she got in massive amounts of trouble for that). She didn't try throwing her weight against you and tanking off, which is what Gypsum liked doing around trailers/lorrys. It took an hour and a half of faff, but Hermosa genuinely changed her mind about the whole affair and walked onto the lorry. My friend (the owner of the lorry) is a fantastic horsewoman.

Traveled fine and arrived at new yard. She was put into the wee pen in the photo and they spent a few hours introducing her to a couple horses. Initially, she got very worried about being chased, but the horses weren't terribly aggressive about it, and she realized it actually wasn't the end of the world, although it was traumatic to watch, at first. Once they looked more settled, they went into a field. Everyone started grazing. YO sent me a video (which I would add, but getting videos onto this site is such a hassle) of everyone with their heads down.


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## PurBee (1 May 2021)

Woohoo brilliant update! Shes got turnout, mates and they all get on...you must be relieved.


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## Meowy Catkin (1 May 2021)

Excellent update.


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## Caol Ila (2 May 2021)

Popped by the yard today. The summer field is a five-to-ten minute hike from the yard. I left Hermosa in the field but went in to say hi, and she came up to us for a cuddle before wandering off with the herd. She's buddied up with the black horse.


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## Caol Ila (2 May 2021)

There are eight horses (including mine) in the field, seven mares and a gelding. Not a bad sized herd for learning skillz. It only took the YO half a day of introductions, using the pens in yesterday's photo, to get the horses to a point where they could go into a field together. No fence jumping needed. Also, not as hard as I thought. We could have done this at Gypsum's yard. There was a way. But what I clearly needed was a knowledgeable and authoritative YO/YM to hold my hand through and take charge of the process (remember, Gypsum hasn't been in herds for 20 years). Not just, "Talk to the other liveries" and then being expected to punter it with a nearly-unhandled two-year old. So, we got that. Finally.


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## southerncomfort (2 May 2021)

That looks absolutely perfect!


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## Caol Ila (2 May 2021)

I should add, happy birthday to Gypsum. She's 28 today. I didn't take photos and in fact forgot, because I was flapping about her not eating her hard feed and giving her a deconstructed feed -- the different bits in different buckets -- to see what parts of her concoction she actually liked, or not. But she got the haynet from Hermosa's journey as a birthday present. She preferred Kilmarnock yard's hay to her usual hay.


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## ycbm (2 May 2021)

I'm so relieved on your behalf about the move.  I hope this is now onwards and upwards for Hermosa and you


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## Meowy Catkin (2 May 2021)

Hermosa looks so happy. 

Happy Birthday to Gypsum!


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## Caol Ila (2 May 2021)

She's proven she can tolerate stabling as well as any horse, but she will be out in that field 24/7 for the rest of the summer. I think she prefers that.


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## shortstuff99 (2 May 2021)

That's brilliant news! She really is a gorgeous little filly.

Happy birthday to Gypsum!


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## Wishfilly (2 May 2021)

So glad you have found a good set up for her!

And Happy Birthday to Gypsum. 28 is a very impressive age!


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## HollyWoozle (2 May 2021)

Great update! This field and herd look brilliant.


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## holeymoley (2 May 2021)

Great news, glad you have found somewhere that looks like it will work out x


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## atropa (3 May 2021)

She looks so settled, sounds like a much better set up for her. I'm so glad for you.
What did you say to the previous YO regarding the promised turnout that never materialised, how did she react?


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## Caol Ila (3 May 2021)

atropa said:



			She looks so settled, sounds like a much better set up for her. I'm so glad for you.
What did you say to the previous YO regarding the promised turnout that never materialised, how did she react?
		
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The YO talked farmer husband into letting her onto the field. She was getting out most days. But not when it was raining. Or really windy. And the YO sometimes brought her in after four or five hours if she was looking too much like a blimp, which was probably the right thing to do because that Ayrshire grass isn't great for a little PRE. When I gave notice, I said that a space had opened up at a yard only 15 miles away from my flat and 10 miles away from my other horse. The quality of grazing north of the city is generally a lot more meh than Ayrshire and Lanarkshire, which is ideal for her (but has been a headache with Gypsum).


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## atropa (3 May 2021)

Caol Ila said:



			The YO talked farmer husband into letting her onto the field. She was getting out most days. But not when it was raining. Or really windy. And the YO sometimes brought her in after four or five hours if she was looking too much like a blimp, which was probably the right thing to do because that Ayrshire grass isn't great for a little PRE. When I gave notice, I said that a space had opened up at a yard only 15 miles away from my flat and 10 miles away from my other horse. The quality of grazing north of the city is generally a lot more meh than Ayrshire and Lanarkshire, which is ideal for her (but has been a headache with Gypsum).
		
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Thats good, glad it wasn't too stressful for you. If you ever need really poor grazing, hit up some of the North Lanarkshire areas closest to the M8. I found East Dunbartonshire grazing rich enough to cause multiple colics in my WB for the couple of years I was there, although my native poor doer did well on it.


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## Caol Ila (3 May 2021)

She's out with some natives in a sparse field, so she should be fine. If she ever goes back to Gypsum's yard, the grazing there is also not brilliant, but good for fat natives and Spanish horses. Haven't seen anything with laminitis since I moved there, and they have a lot of natives and more turn-out time than most places.  When I was at the yard in S. Lanarkshire, horses were getting laminitis left and right, but Gypsum looked brilliant.


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## SatansLittleHelper (3 May 2021)

Brilliant news for you all...such a relief for you. She's a pretty girl 😍


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## Caol Ila (10 May 2021)

I empathize with the parents of teenagers everywhere.

She's gone from a sweet, willing wee lassie, eager to please, to a rebellious teenager who wants to sit in the basement with their mates smoking weed while exploring all the novel ways they can say f--k off. She likes her herd and being out 24/7, and has decided she doesn't want to be caught, be led, etc. Show her a headcollar, she acts like she's never seen one in her life. We've gone back to basics. Basic basics. Catch, feed, lead to the gate, feed, release. Catch again, with a treat. She looks like a Kiger mustang with the dun coat and long black mane, and she sure as hell is acting like one. Oh, well, at least she's pretty.


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## Goldenstar (10 May 2021)

I am glad everything is no well settled she is very nice is that a huge whorl on the bottom of her neck?


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## Caol Ila (10 May 2021)

Goldenstar said:



			I am glad everything is no well settled she is very nice is that a huge whorl on the bottom of her neck?
		
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I could do without the teenage rebellion, but I guess that's youngsters.  Yeah, it is a huge whorl.


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## TheMule (11 May 2021)

I suspect you're just seeing the product of her having had an unsettled few weeks and not having had the right set up. Now she's back happy in her herd it makes sense that she would really just rather stay with them!
Personally I would just ease off expecting anything and just let her relax and realize she is there to stay


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## LadyGascoyne (11 May 2021)

She’s 3 isn’t she, CI?

I agree she’s had a lot of change very quickly and had to deal with some unfortunate circumstances, so I’d probably also let her be.

After Mim moved around the same age, we basically did a leg, eye and ear count and left her to it for a while. I don’t think I even caught her although she would come up for a scratch and a pat.

What did work nicely for me is that I was doing the two other horses in the field with her so she would see me around but not bothering her. I’d do feet, groom, feed, tack up and even ride from the field and she’d watch in amazement and then want to be involved in everything I was doing.

Do you think you could arrange with the owners of the ponies that you could catch, lead, groom one of them?


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## CanteringCarrot (11 May 2021)

The process with young horses is almost never linear. You'll have the ups and downs, the forward and 2 steps back, but at this point, I'd just relax. A lot of horses act feral this time of year anyway because there is something about springtime. So don't take it personally. I'm sure when she is in her new home for awhile the novelty will wear off a bit  and she'll slide right back into the routine of being handled. 

I have a bay dun, who is more dun than bay in the summer and I refer to him as Sprit the wild stallion of the Cimarron when he has certain lapses of judgment  

Along the same lines of what LadyGascoyne said, I've also heard of people just going out to the field and poo picking, reading a book, eating a sandwich, just doing something,  and the horse sort of gets used to the person just being around and often their curiosity is piqued and they venture over to investigate. Especially if one decides to crinkle a food wrapper.


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## Caol Ila (11 May 2021)

Better today. Caught her without attempts to run away. She acted a bit dubious of the headcollar but let me put it on. Led her a short distance to feed bucket and took headcollar off. She chose to hang around me/the gate until I got into the car. Only wandered off when I started the engine. So, that's progress.

My main concern with the handling at the moment is her feet. I can't imagine it's great for development of joints/tendons etc. for her feet to be as long as they are. It would be a lot easier to relax if I could get that under control. The rest of it... manana.

But at least she's pretty.


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## Rosemary28 (12 May 2021)

She is so beautiful CI


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## Errin Paddywack (12 May 2021)

She is really coming on isn't she and what a lovely colour.  My sister's old mare used to go a similar colour in the summer.


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## KEK (12 May 2021)

Shes gorgeous. My fave colour and look at her dapples! Can't the vet sedate her to let the farrier do her feet which will then give you time to counter- condition and desens?


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## Caol Ila (12 May 2021)

Yeah, she's definitely got past the fugly stage. Had a really good groundwork lesson with the YO today. YO knows her stuff and knows youngsters. She's really good. Farrier up tomorrow. I won't be there as Gypsum has the vet, but YO will probably handle it a lot better than me, so that's not a bad thing. I've left her with half a tube of Domesedan.


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## Cloball (12 May 2021)

She is just gorgeous. Does she have nd1? (Non dun gene)


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## LadyGascoyne (12 May 2021)

Caol Ila said:



			Yeah, she's definitely got past the fugly stage. Had a really good groundwork lesson with the YO today. YO knows her stuff and knows youngsters. She's really good. Farrier up tomorrow. I won't be there as Gypsum has the vet, but YO will probably handle it a lot better than me, so that's not a bad thing. I've left her with half a tube of Domesedan.
		
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I’m sure she’ll be ok. Mimosa sat on the farrier the first time he did her back feet. We all lived, including the farrier. She’s great now and gives feet nicely.


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## Caol Ila (12 May 2021)

Cloball said:



			She is just gorgeous. Does she have nd1? (Non dun gene)
		
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I think so. Her passport, which has that info, is at the yard. But I vaguely remember seeing that. Not sure what the colour genetics in PREs means. I know mom is black, and dad carries the dun gene.


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## Cloball (13 May 2021)

Caol Ila said:



			I think so. Her passport, which has that info, is at the yard. But I vaguely remember seeing that. Not sure what the colour genetics in PREs means. I know mom is black, and dad carries the dun gene.
		
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I think I am correct in saying there is both Dun and Nd1 in PREs but the Nd1 is more common. Nd1 gives the dun markings with little to no dilution, typically more of a normal light bay colour rather than the buff/yellower tones of a true dun. 

https://www.spanishhorsebreedersuk.co.uk/spanish-horse-information.html/#colour


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## shortstuff99 (13 May 2021)

Cloball said:



			I think I am correct in saying there is both Dun and Nd1 in PREs but the Nd1 is more common. Nd1 gives the dun markings with little to no dilution, typically more of a normal light bay colour rather than the buff/yellower tones of a true dun. 

https://www.spanishhorsebreedersuk.co.uk/spanish-horse-information.html/#colour

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Yes true Dun is very rare in PREs and from what I can remember there is only a total of 5 in the whole studbook?


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## Caol Ila (13 May 2021)

She's got the dorsal stripe. The breeder has photos of her as a yearling on her website, and I have photos from when I bought her in early March -- and she looked like a standard bay horse. I wrote 'bay' as the colour on the PPE stuff and the insurance paperwork. She's become so much lighter.  The passport has the details of the colour genetics. Can write them down when I'm at the yard tomorrow if anyone is geeky enough to understand it.

Farrier visit went okay. Got fronts done, but hinds are still a thing. YO and I (mainly YO) chose to not push it, because traumatizing her would be unhelpful. The farrier is back next week, and I got Domesedan off the vet while she was seeing Gypsum, so we can give Hermosa the horsey valium and just get it done. Then we can continue to work on it, so hopefully we won't need more horsey valium in 6-8 weeks.


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## Caol Ila (18 May 2021)

Had a lesson with a classical trainer today. These notes are more for me, but maybe they will be useful to anyone else who stumbles across the thread.

On a scale of Ghandi to my flatmate, who overcommits herself and then flaps around in a whirlwind of frantic stress, one must be near-as-dammit to Ghandi. Hermosa is far more sensitive and in tune to her handlers than my assorted quarter horses and draft crosses. Obviously, it's better to be zen-like with any horse, but the draft crosses never acted phased by a wee bit of flapping. Do I enjoy being around my flatmate when she's like that? No. Multiply that tenfold with something as sensitive as a little hotblood horse. And don't flap. Definitely don't flap when the filly plants. Just walk forward thinking very calm thoughts. Filly responds to this.

I had taught the filly reinback and turn on the forehand, but the trainer wanted me to use different cues for the latter than what I initially used. I'd trained turn-on-the-forehand it the way Richard Maxwell shows in his book. You bring the lead rope back and up to the withers and you move towards the horse's hip. That's how a lot of the western-style trainers in the States do it as well. This trainer had me slightly bending Hermosa's head to the inside (as Richard says), but then cueing with my hand, just behind the girth area. She pointed out that when you're riding the horse, this is where you cue that movement with your leg. So why not teach the horse that now? That made sense. Horse understood it easily.

Next, we started leg yield. Lead horse forward in walk. Slightly bend her head away from you, and brush your hand against her side, more or less where your leg would be, to ask her to step under with the hind leg. Somehow watch the horse walk while you lead her and not crash into things, because you want to apply the cue as the outside hind leg is in flight. This was harder, more so for me than Hermosa. It takes a bit of multitasking skill to lead the horse, apply the aid at the right moment, and remember to keep her head bent in the correct direction for baby leg yield. When I didn't balls up the cues, the filly got it.

She also said to lead from the off-side sometimes. It will help the horse be less one-sided when I eventually ride her.


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## ycbm (18 May 2021)

Caol Ila said:



			Had a lesson with a classical trainer today. These notes are more for me, but maybe they will be useful to anyone else who stumbles across the thread.

On a scale of Ghandi to my flatmate, who overcommits herself and then flaps around in a whirlwind of frantic stress, one must be near-as-dammit to Ghandi. Hermosa is far more sensitive and in tune to her handlers than my assorted quarter horses and draft crosses. Obviously, it's better to be zen-like with any horse, but the draft crosses never acted phased by a wee bit of flapping. Do I enjoy being around my flatmate when she's like that? No. Multiply that tenfold with something as sensitive as a little hotblood horse. And don't flap. Definitely don't flap when the filly plants. Just walk forward thinking very calm thoughts. Filly responds to this.
		
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Oh boy do I recognise this!   And I really don't do Ghandi


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## Caol Ila (18 May 2021)

ycbm said:



			Oh boy do I recognise this!   And I really don't do Ghandi 

Click to expand...

I imagine this is true of Deza as well then? 

I'm not particularly great at Ghandi, either. We were actually doing better at approaching scary stuff when she was Gypsum's yard, but I was relaxed and happy there, and in an environment where I was super comfortable. New yards are unsettling for everyone, not just horses. Oh, well, just need to get better at Ghandi. Or good enough to convince my horse.


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## ycbm (18 May 2021)

Caol Ila said:



			I imagine this is true of Deza as well then?
		
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I get the impression it's true of most of them,  they are just very,  very sensitive horses. When I bought my new one it brought her into stark relief.  Ludo can be over sensitive, but the contrast of Deza and the mongrel Joe is a real eye opener.  And I've realised how much I value that calmness.

I hope you learn to enjoy Hermosa's sensitivity better than I've managed. 
.


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## Caol Ila (18 May 2021)

Are you still thinking of selling Deza?

I think I can, in part because she's sensitive, but not a drama queen. When the pigs were galloping up and down their field, she stopped and stared. Then walked calmly onwards after a pat. Today, when I got to the yard in a flap (I was late to lesson due to a stuck lorry on the main road out of Glasgow), she caught easily, but planted on the road down to the yard. Planting is annoying and not ideal, but it's not scary, like a horse trying to tank off in the middle of the road. I feel there's plenty of potential for us to meet somewhere in the middle. 

On the other hand, if I get a project pony of riding age, it will not be a hot breed. One is enough!


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## milliepops (18 May 2021)

My crackpot welsh has been the greatest Ghandi teacher I've ever come across. I was never very flappy before, that PRE i rode before was a good rehearsal but even so, i was far too flappy for her to begin with. I had a reminder of this the other day when I got to the yard really late for a lesson for reasons out of my control and she absolutely hoovered up my emotions and well and truly erupted.  I'd forgotten how extreme her reactions could be to my frame of mind. Back to zen. sounds like a useful thing to be able to practice now before you want to think about backing.


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## CanteringCarrot (18 May 2021)

Ah yes, my Spanish horse has taught me all about Ghandi  He is the coolest of horses and the hottest of horses. I love his sensitivity. Not necessarily his occasional drama queen antics, but the fact that he's so easy in other ways makes up for it.

Ground work is very fun with these horses. They're so in tune with their handlers body language. You can teach them so much. I also started lateral work on the ground in the beginning with him. He also loves tricks. They want to please so badly, sometimes too badly 😅 

I think you'll learn a lot from each other. My horse really teaches me to "leave the BS at the door" so to speak. It's actually a good exercise for me, mentally. 

I'm excited to read more updates. I want to start a youngster (specially another Iberian) so badly, but it's not in the cards at the moment.


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## ycbm (18 May 2021)

Caol Ila said:



			Are you still thinking of selling Deza?
		
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Yes,  I think so. There are other things,  like her stride isn't a fit for my body like the breeds that swing their backs and use less leg action.  And I have to split the barn to stop her having too much food and that means I can't ride in there and winters are getting so I can't work them  for days at a time unless I can ride/do in hand in there.  And I've realised that I only really want one horse in proper work,  and if the other horse is going to be mostly a companion,  it's ridiculous if that horse is worth a fortune and could break a leg or get colic tomorrow. I have a holiday soon and I'm going to decide after that. 

I hope Hermosa works out for you but if not you've got a lovely filly who will sell easily.  
.


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## milliepops (18 May 2021)

CanteringCarrot said:



			My horse really teaches me to "leave the BS at the door" so to speak. It's actually a good exercise for me, mentally.
		
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same, it's really grounding having to just park the stress and be in the moment for a while.

Though I am very very much hoping the next horse is rather less sensitive!  I want a bit of carefree time, haha.


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## Caol Ila (18 May 2021)

It will probably be good for me. Could do with being more grounded and finding my inner zen. I like the filly more and more, and I love how quickly she learns things. She thinks about stuff. Not bogging off and asking questions later. Super smart wee horse. Plus, she's pretty.

Gypsum makes up her own mind about stuff and doesn't really care what you think. The nice part of that is that you can be pretty carefree around her. And she agrees with you (enough) about whatever you are doing, she is pretty bombproof. The downside is... good fkucking luck teaching her to do something she does not want to do. Hermosa has coped with pigs and cows with very little drama because she wants to tune in and believe in her human. Gypsum was always like, "See ya later." 

Never ridden a PRE, so that will be interesting, but what I *didn't* want was another big, bouncy warmblood-type mover. I've felt much more effective as a rider on the assorted Welshes, Arabs, Highlands, cobs, and Connemaras I've sat on over the years. In the US, Spanish horses have become very popular amongst dressage riders who don't want to sit the warmblood paces.


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## palo1 (18 May 2021)

milliepops said:



			My crackpot welsh has been the greatest Ghandi teacher I've ever come across. I was never very flappy before, that PRE i rode before was a good rehearsal but even so, i was far too flappy for her to begin with. I had a reminder of this the other day when I got to the yard really late for a lesson for reasons out of my control and she absolutely hoovered up my emotions and well and truly erupted.  I'd forgotten how extreme her reactions could be to my frame of mind. Back to zen. sounds like a useful thing to be able to practice now before you want to think about backing.
		
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I think that the really useful phrase for young horse riders 'never take fear to the saddle' should have a sister statement:  'never take 'flap' to the saddle'!!  I have one horse who simply won't tolerate 'emotional' bad news; he is a very sensitive soul and it is profoundly upsetting to see him so bothered by his rider's 'stuff'.  I learnt very early when he was a 3yo not to do that - he has never been naughty but definately can't cope well with extra 'stuff'.  My young Welsh is very funny in that she responds with an attack of the 'bolshies' when and if I am flustered, wobbly, irritable etc but of course she is still young.  Horses teach us such great life lessons, especially the sensitive ones and I am pretty grateful for that tbh  I have never owned a spanish horse but have ridden them and they seemed to me to be very strong characters but not likely to 'suffer fools gladly'.  I loved the riding I did with them - definately as much mental discipline as physical...


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## shortstuff99 (18 May 2021)

I think the breeding lines of the PREs can really impact on how sensitive they are too. Ones from a bullfighting line tend to be really sharp but the dressage/sport bred ones tend to be more chill.

My 3 year old filly is practically horizontal, she never finds anything a problem and am yet to see her spook 😂. 

My older mare from very famous bullfighting lines can be an absolute hot mess in the wrong hands. It helps that I'm very chill naturally which is maybe why I've never found them that bad. Others think she is a lunatic 🤣.

I like horses that think for themselves as I'm too lazy to be telling them what to do all the time so we are well matched I think.....


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## scopeybay98 (18 May 2021)

Late to the party and had to read through 13 pages BUT I used to ride at the yard that you used to have Hermosa at/Gypsums yard. Always thought once I got a horse I’d keep it there, but soon saw how not great it is. Yes the facilities are lovely and they’ve put a lot of money into it, but the treatment of the school horses isn’t great. The stables are small and they have way too many horses up there, and the cafe and soon petting zoo pose worries for horse owners up there. Very riding school driven which isn’t always ideal. We live in the west end too but have now sold as we’re moving to a property with private stables and arena etc. Was going to suggest looking at private yards round there and knock on every door you can but I’ve seen you’ve moved again. Hope this yard works out for you, good luck!


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## Caol Ila (19 May 2021)

scopeybay98 said:



			Late to the party and had to read through 13 pages BUT I used to ride at the yard that you used to have Hermosa at/Gypsums yard. Always thought once I got a horse I’d keep it there, but soon saw how not great it is. Yes the facilities are lovely and they’ve put a lot of money into it, but the treatment of the school horses isn’t great. The stables are small and they have way too many horses up there, and the cafe and soon petting zoo pose worries for horse owners up there. Very riding school driven which isn’t always ideal. We live in the west end too but have now sold as we’re moving to a property with private stables and arena etc. Was going to suggest looking at private yards round there and knock on every door you can but I’ve seen you’ve moved again. Hope this yard works out for you, good luck!
		
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Well done for making it through 13 pages. I knocked on a few doors around that area, but got nowhere. Some of the horse properties have huge, scary gates, so you can't knock on the door. Anyway, I think she's in a good place for now, albeit not quite as convenient for me.

I think it being riding school driven was one of the reasons Hermosa had to leave. None of the staff have the time to involve themselves with sorting out a potentially tricky livery situation. It actually wasn't. It took owner at current yard less than half a day of faff to safely introduce her to an adult herd of eight horses. But she had the time and willpower to do that.

A lot of us owners are hanging fire with regards to the cafe and alleged petting zoo (to be honest, we have no idea what the latter will look like or entail). Many of us are a bit worried, as you noted. Hermosa will definitely stay where she is for at least the next year, which gives me an opportunity to see if the chaos of the general public traipsing around the yard becomes stressful and untenable. It might not. It might be fine. The jury is very much out. If it's a problem, there could be a mass exodus. And my horse is already somewhere else, which means I don't have to scrabble for spaces at other yards.


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## holeymoley (19 May 2021)

I passed your place the other day, we actually rode around the park. Funnily enough on seeing the signs and explaining what was proposed, my husband said that it would really put him off being a livery there. And he’s not even the horsey one! It’s bizarre, i don’t think there’s really any need for it in the area. Who knows how it will pan out.


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## Caol Ila (19 May 2021)

There are two coffee shops in the Mugdock visitor centre and plenty in Milngavie (it's just that sort of place). Lots of competition. I will be really sad if it becomes unworkable as a livery yard. Despite them being totally sh1t about the situation with Hermosa, I still like the place. The liveries are great bunch, they have always done right by Gypsum, the facilities are brilliant, and I would miss hacking in Mugdock. It's also just up the road from where I live. But we will have to see.


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## Caol Ila (21 May 2021)

Very sticky feet today when being led away from her friends, and then some speed reversing. Not ideal. I didn't leave the field, but rather brought her to the gate and gave her a Lickit. She liked me a lot more after that. Did some really nice field liberty work, walking in a circle around me on command, without a headcollar. When I left, she pressed her chest against the gate and looked like she would have come, but I had the sense to leave it on a good note. She followed me on the other side of the fence when I walked back to the barn.

I thought about it, and I don't think it's entirely a young horse issue. Some of it is a _different _horse issue. I've got 21 years with Gypsum, who was either actually fine, in which case she would stand quietly, gentle and obedient, and do what you asked, or not fine. And if she wasn't fine, believe me, you (and everyone else in the barn) were going to know all about it. She was never ambiguous about her feelings. Hermosa is much quieter and internalizes stuff, so if she's bit a tense but not doing anything crazy, she's still not fine. She's just not a loud, opinionated drama queen who thinks the world revolves around her. I think she's quite worried about being in the yard by herself. YO had initially offered to let me catch another horse and bring it in with her, but because she was walking down there and seemingly coping, we didn't continue that conversation. Next time I see YO, I think I will reopen it.


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## Caol Ila (2 June 2021)

Went on a hack today with a calm buddy. Some curious dairy cows trotted up to the fenceline, and Hermosa spooked and flew backwards. I held her, and she pranced and dragon snorted, which set off calm buddy, and he started spinning and reversing (and in the meantime, a cyclist rode between two spooking horses... luckily neither one cares about bikes). Calm buddy's rider and I dithered over continuing onwards or bailing and going in a different direction.

While we flapped, Hermosa stared down the cows and decided everyone was clearly being a fanny, and we were going. to. pass. those. cows. She arched her neck and set off, and the rest of us went with her. When we passed them on the way home, they were still hanging over the fence, but she just gave them a disdainful look.

I guess she's a pretty cool little horse.


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## PurBee (2 June 2021)

Caol Ila said:



			Went on a hack today with a calm buddy. Some curious dairy cows trotted up to the fenceline, and Hermosa spooked and flew backwards. I held her, and she pranced and dragon snorted, which set off calm buddy, and he started spinning and reversing. His rider and I dithered over continuing onwards or bailing and going in a different direction.

While we flapped, Hermosa stared down the cows and decided everyone was clearly being a fanny, and we were going. to. pass. those. cows. She arched her neck and set off, and the rest of us went with her. When we passed them on the way home, they were still hanging over the fence, but she just gave them a disdainful look.

I guess she's a pretty cool little horse.
		
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😂😂😆

I often wonder if to horses, cows look like alien versions of them!

I’m so glad mine weren’t on the yard the day a huge pissed off cow crashed onto my yard space in desperate search for her just weaned calf. The snorts wouldve been so huge im sure theyd have breathed fire! 😂

That little session she’s had with cows and deciding herself to pass by it is great testament to her emerging confidence and bravery....thats brilliant from such a youngster.  🥳


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## Errin Paddywack (2 June 2021)

She is showing she has a brain and is capable of reasoning something many horses don't have.  She could be a star in the making.


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## PurBee (2 June 2021)

Errin Paddywack said:



			She is showing she has a brain and is capable of reasoning something many horses don't have.  She could be a star in the making.
		
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That’s something that was a bit of a shock for me to experience about horses. Having handled/ridden riding school horses for many years, they rarely ever showed a raised eyebrow at anything...so deeply trained, de-sensitised to everything. 

Only by owning (hot blooded i will admit!...so different to chilled-out RS natives!) horses was it revealed to me that no, that flight instinct is powerful and when those flight chemicals are whizzing around that massive body in huge doses, they easily lose their minds, and that training them to better deal with _that_ inate prey-driven response is just as important, if not more important than any other training.  
It’s really nice when we reach the stage that during a stress moment, they have pause, assess, listen to us, rather than just blindly react.


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## Casey76 (3 June 2021)

PurBee said:



			That’s something that was a bit of a shock for me to experience about horses. Having handled/ridden riding school horses for many years, they rarely ever showed a raised eyebrow at anything...so deeply trained, de-sensitised to everything.

Only by owning (hot blooded i will admit!...so different to chilled-out RS natives!) horses was it revealed to me that no, that flight instinct is powerful and when those flight chemicals are whizzing around that massive body in huge doses, they easily lose their minds, and that training them to better deal with _that_ inate prey-driven response is just as important, if not more important than any other training. 
It’s really nice when we reach the stage that during a stress moment, they have pause, assess, listen to us, rather than just blindly react.
		
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I’d say that the majority of school horses are not ‘deeply trained’ and ‘de-sensitized’; they are shut down, inured to their existence... I’ve seen so many school horses blossom when they’ve been sold on and in a 1:1 relationship; to the point that their new owners suddenly don’t know what to do with their favourite mount, who is now showing some personality.

Tartine is a Mérens, a breed known for their tractability and calm nature.  Tartine didn’t get the memo 🙄. She is an exceptionally sensitive pony, and not particularly people oriented.  She has a fabulous levitate (not levade  ) and raised voices or fast movements will have her jumping away to hide in a corner.  She is very much a pony that you need to leave your baggage at the door when you are working with her.  I’ve actually got a permanent disabling injury because I ignored my common sense and tried to force an issue because I was in a hurry.

Sensitive mares can be frustrating, but they are also immensely rewarding, and once you’ve got them onside and win their trust, they are *amazing*


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## zandp (3 June 2021)

Both my mares are sensitive, although the one who was in a RS for 2 years and passed from pillar to post for her life before I got her (5 owners before me and she was 10 when I bought her) didn't seem sensitive at first.  The QH/TB has taught me to leave everything at the door and be in the moment and I'm grateful for the lessons she's made me learn.  I think I'm almost ok to be her human now, she thinks I shouldn't have any other horse and puts up with the other one mostly.


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