# No place for live-and-let-live in an intolerant world; will hunting survive?



## Isbister (25 January 2019)

I am beginning to doubt it.

Just before Christmas, while standing in a queue outside an Italian restaurant in Borough Market, I (and the entire queue) was  harangued by a sandal-clad vegan with a megaphone. Turning it to max, and standing about 10 feet away, he roundly scolded us in a vaguely offensive way for patronising that utterly blameless establishment. I don't mind vegetarianism or veganism at all, but if I did, I hope I won't behave in the same way as Mr Sandal.

Yesterday I learned of a petition aimed at putting a stop to the Ashford Valley's traditional Boxing Day meet in Tenterden. Something similar was reported in the West Country also. The petition has been put together by LACS, accompanied by the usual type of invective and silly anti-hunting propaganda.

South of London, saboteurs are behaving with increasing boldness, using drones and intimidating farmers,  landowners, publicans and others all with a view to preventing perfectly lawful hunts from going about their business. Some farmers may feel it is not worth the risk of exposing their families and farm machinery to criminal attacks from the balaclava thugs, and will think twice about allowing the hunt over their land.

In my view, the ongoing Brexit debate has served to expose an extreme form of joyless and puritanical intolerance that is fast becoming the norm in this country. It is a form of fascism, pure and simple - my way or the highway. You see someone doing something you don't understand, or having a bit of fun, and you put a stop to it. 

Real hunting was pretty much run off the road by Blair. Modern hunting, and drag-hunting, are merely pale imitations of the real thing. Here and there (I won't say where) there are a few hunts still managing to do things in a reasonably authentic way, but even they are steadily losing their country to the creeping urbanisation that is the reality of modern England, not to mention the financial aspects. 

I'm not being defeatist, merely a realist. Contrary to what the Countryside Alliance might wish for, I suspect the time may soon be upon us when we will say that hunting has had its day.


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## ponyparty (25 January 2019)

Ugh, don't  I find the whole thing thoroughly depressing. It seems these extremists won't be happy until anything vaguely resembling hunting has been consigned to the history books. I believe antis have even been known to target bloodhound packs.
The thing is, where does it stop... There are hardliners amongst these people who do not believe we should have farm animals or even pets, that it is some sort of slavery. I have seen many a comment on Facebook, on threads about horses on the roads, where people have proclaimed we should not even be riding them at all. 
I do try not to be defeatist about it, but That Lot are getting a louder voice and more airtime; and with increasing urbanisation and a growing disconnect between most people in cities and the countryside - a lack of understanding, and a lack of willingness to understand - I think you might be right.


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## twiggy2 (25 January 2019)

You mean fox hunting not all hunting I am guessing?


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## ponyparty (25 January 2019)

twiggy2 said:



			You mean fox hunting not all hunting I am guessing?
		
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Well no - being as drag hunting and bloodhound packs have been targeted, I think these people want rid of all of it! Unless they just can't tell the difference. I think they want rid of it all though, there's a real undercurrent of quote hostile perceived class warfare. A lot of the time it's all "toffs in red coats on horses" - as if that makes a difference to their everyday lives?!

And they are certainly against trail hunting, because they are convinced that every hunt is acting illegally, which is rubbish.


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## twiggy2 (25 January 2019)

Bit your not talking about shooting, fishing etc which results in something that can be eaten?


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## ponyparty (25 January 2019)

Ahhh I get you (I think). I assumed the OP meant hunting with hounds, but it's only a matter of time before all country sports are attacked. There is already quite a bit of unwanted interest in shooting from various groups - I don't know much about it, not really my bag. So I don't think it's anything to do with whether quarry is eaten or not :-/


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## AdorableAlice (25 January 2019)

i will take a slightly different view, although I do agree with you op.

What will put a stop to hunting before a banner waving vegan, is the ever increasing planning committees granting permissions on the green belt.  Intensive farming reduces the land available and farmers not wanting the hunt across.  Farmers/landowners can generate a decent seasonal income with the shoot rather than hounds, and there is  much diversification going on in the countryside in general.

Just today I travelled through the Evesham/Bidford area and could not believe the quantity of houses that had been built in the surrounding villages.  Fields that I have ridden across just 10 years ago with the CWW are now huge housing estates.

Hunting will survive on the big estates and some of the bigger hunts will amalgamate with the smaller packs to enable hunting to continue where there is the land available.


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## ycbm (25 January 2019)

In my view, the ongoing Brexit debate has served to expose an extreme form of joyless and puritanical intolerance that is fast becoming the norm in this country. It is a form of fascism, pure and simple - my way or the highway. You see someone doing something you don't understand, or having a bit of fun, and you put a stop to it
		
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That takes the biscuit for the most tenuous link to Brexit I've seen ðŸ˜‚

The cause is social media. It allows minority groups of people of like mind to find each other and coordinate their activities in a way which has never before been possible.

Fox hunting will die out completely because of it, I think. Likewise trail hunting where the hunt concerned is unable or unwilling to call its hounds of a fox scent. .

I see the same old story trotted out again on this thread, that drag hunts and bloodhounds  are being  sabbed. In the evidence provided on the last thread for this claim,  the hunts concerned explicitly stated that the people concerned were not sabs, just stupid yobs acting alone.

I agree with AA, what will kill drag/trail hunting eventually is lack of space. The land I used to hunt over is now split by three major new roads in the last three years, and rapidly being unfilled with new housing.

But that's what happens if you add a third of a million to your population every year.


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## ponyparty (25 January 2019)

ycbm said:



			the same old story trotted out again on this thread, by the same poster,
		
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Me?! Have I posted about that before? I don't remember doing so. Doesn't mean it didn't happen though  just going by what I've seen (and keep seeing) on social media! You're absolutely right about that, by the way.


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## ycbm (25 January 2019)

ponyparty said:



			Me?! Have I posted about that before? I don't remember doing so. Doesn't mean it didn't happen though  just going by what I've seen (and keep seeing) on social media! You're absolutely right about that, by the way.
		
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Apologies if it wasn't you, my memory must be failing me.. I've edited to remove that.


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## SOS (25 January 2019)

ycbm said:



			The cause is social media. It allows minority groups of people of like mind to find each other and coordinate their activities in a way which has never before been possible.
		
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Agree with this ten times over. Sabs are brilliant at PR online: editing videos, putting together tangible stories out of odd bits and crowd funding/making their followers feel included. People love sharing things on social media but often fail to fact check them. The classic being a missing person post from two years ago that gets shared and shared, when on the description of the original post it says they were found later that day.

The majority of the public doesnt know anything about horses so they take the sabs â€˜used for charging/ abused/ overworkedâ€™ comments as truth.
Even less know about hunting. People who know hunting would ask how hounds can be out of control at fault of the huntsmen when gizmos or horns are being used by sabs.

Yet there is little positive on social media for hunting and unfortunately hunts are becoming more and more private (which can be misconstrued as being exclusive). Gone are the days of inviting the public to come along. Outside of the Christmas period meets how many hunts would welcome foot followers that are strangers? I think this is shooting yourself in the foot behaviour.

As a guess most of the UK probably doesnâ€™t give a toss about fox hunting (they donâ€™t about other animal issues). So they are neutral. However they may be swayed by positive or negative stories... which do you see more of?


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## Isbister (25 January 2019)

ycbm said:



			That takes the biscuit for the most tenuous link to Brexit I've seen ðŸ˜‚
		
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There is no direct link between Brexit and hunting; I simply meant that over the last two years or so, the Brexit debate appears to have brought to light a growing streak of intolerance in the country at large that was not so apparent at one time. An inability to appreciate other people's points of view and way of life if it is different to one's own.



twiggy2 said:



			Bit your not talking about shooting, fishing etc which results in something that can be eaten?
		
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This is the hunting forum. If I had meant to talk about shooting or fishing, I would have posted elsewhere. Anyway, what has eating the thing got to do with it? Plenty of shoots just bury the birds afterwards in a mass grave.

Shooting comes into it later of course. Foxes are now being shot, because they are not supposed to be hunted with hounds.


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## MiJodsR2BlinkinTite (25 January 2019)

This is an interesting thread!

Down here in the Westcountry, we've certainly had a great deal of "sab" activity; they put up some footage on a local "Devon Live news" page, allegedly of a fox being "ripped apart by hounds", except that it patently wasn't........ it was very obviously roadkill, looking at the injuries on it.

On this particular social media group, when anyone (such as myself) tried to point out that this wasn't a fox that had been "ripped apart by hounds" but roadkill, the nastiness and venom that was evident from the "anti" brigade was absolutely unbelievable! It was obvious that they are organised, and lurk on social media, and are very obviously primed to respond as one if anyone dares to put their heads over the parapet and disagree with them. Some of the abuse frankly should have been challenged by the moderators. The best thing I was called was a "cruel bitch", it got worse, a lot worse.....

And then there was the local Devon & Cornwall Police official FB page, which was over-run by the "anti" brigade. Now I don't mind someone having an opinion, but for merely suggesting that limited police resources should perhaps be allocated to people who are in life-threatening situations and thus needing it MORE than the alleged "wildlife crimes" of a few hunts, I was again pilloried and jumped upon en-masse by these people. Someone picked up on my FB profile picture, which is me on my horse, making the assumption that "she's one of them, look she's on a horse in her FB profile". Nasty nasty spiteful little people. I'm sure there are a lot of other issues they could concern themselves with and actually DO some good i.e. ecology, palm oil, deforestation, not to mention women's rights in Arabic countries, and if they really WANT to go for animal cruelty, go on a jaunt to China and REALLY see what goes on out there...... 

When you look a little further, you find a certain unpalatability about the fact that the vast majority of them are in favour, and indeed subscribe to, masked protests and the like. I find that very disturbing indeed.


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## twiggy2 (25 January 2019)

Isbister said:



			This is the hunting forum. If I had meant to talk about shooting or fishing, I would have posted elsewhere. Anyway, what has eating the thing got to do with it? Plenty of shoots just bury the birds afterwards in a mass grave.
		
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Well excuse me!
But are shooting and fishing not hunting?
For me eating it has quite a lot to do with it, I am a live and let live type of person, have chosen not to follow fox hounds but have in the past been out with the mink hounds.
I have all the game that I can get my hands on and if we don't eat it the dogs do.


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## Keith_Beef (25 January 2019)

Isbister said:



			Just before Christmas, while standing in a queue outside an Italian restaurant in Borough Market, I (and the entire queue) was  harangued by a sandal-clad vegan with a megaphone. Turning it to max, and standing about 10 feet away, he roundly scolded us in a vaguely offensive way for patronising that utterly blameless establishment.
		
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Other than finding it slightly ridiculous to stand in a queue outside a restaurant, I think you could have handled this better.

"Cease and desist immediately! Your megaphone is too loud. You are subjecting my eardrums to noise levels which exceed acceptable levels. You are causing me physical pain. I shal count to three, and if you continue to cause me physical pain, I shall riposte, reasonably and proportionately."

You've already commented on his besandled feet... STOMP!

Then confiscate the megaphone and remove its batteries.


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## Isbister (25 January 2019)

Keith_Beef said:



			Other than finding it slightly ridiculous to stand in a queue outside a restaurant, I think you could have handled this better.

"Cease and desist immediately! Your megaphone is too loud. You are subjecting my eardrums to noise levels which exceed acceptable levels. You are causing me physical pain. I shal count to three, and if you continue to cause me physical pain, I shall riposte, reasonably and proportionately."

You've already commented on his besandled feet... STOMP!

Then confiscate the megaphone and remove its batteries.
		
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You may be right.

As to the restaurant, it's food is good; the prices are modest; and they don't take bookings. In London, the result is a queue.


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## honetpot (26 January 2019)

I may be wrong but they stopped the Grove and Rufford Hunt traditional meet at Bawtry last year, but its was on this year.
  The thing is we do not 'hunt' foxes anymore so why should interest vegans? We carry out all sorts of pest control, from poisoning rats and mice. Squires are blooming destructive, cute in the park but when they have stripped all your wiring and costing you thousands not so, so lets get pest control in. Oh and the wasps nest, nobody seems to think twice at killing them.
  Its all a bit subjective , if its bothering you, kill it and if its fluffy and bothering someone else its wrong. Not a lot of people are vegans, and if we were starving we would eat anything.
  I do not eat meat, but raise animals for meat , long story , which I will not bore you with. The only truly vegan restaurant I have ever eaten in the food was so poor I could not believe it, its just a con/lifestyle choice for some, cheap food sold at vastly inflated prices.


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## Tiddlypom (26 January 2019)

Isbister said:



			There is no direct link between Brexit and hunting; I simply meant that over the last two years or so, the Brexit debate appears to have brought to light a growing streak of intolerance in the country at large that was not so apparent at one time. An inability to appreciate other people's points of view and way of life if it is different to one's own.
		
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My local packs are currently being actively monitored/sabbed. I do follow the anti pages trying to keep up and to see if I recognise the locations.

There's not much light relief on either side, but one comedy moment came when a rider in a red coat, who was amongst a section of the field being berated by a local woman for upsetting her animals and allegedly illegally hunting, retorted 'I bet you're a Remainer!'

Is that now the ultimate insult?

ETA The antis are definitely winning the social media battle. There's undoubtedly a lot of misinformation and downright falsehoods on there, but many hunts do little or nothing to help themselves. That, combined with the loss of land and busier roads, will IMHO lead to the cessation of trail hunting with hounds within the next few years.


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## ycbm (26 January 2019)

Unfortunately, I think Joe Public's view of hunting, including drag hunting, is probably influenced by what they see of a hunt. I've either been right in the thick of, or associated with, the following on a regular basis:


Filling a pub at the meet with excited loud talking people wearing fancy dress who don't give the regulars a chance to get to the bar to place an order.
Parking lorries and trailers blocking small roads so other vehicles can't get through.
Parking heavy vehicles on pristine grass verges leaving dreadful ruts in them.
Holding up traffic for an unacceptable length of time by riding in a long pack or crossing over roads.
Hounds with disturbing scarring from hunt activity (kennel fights, barbed wire, etc)
People holding up traffic while cleaning down horses in the road before loading to go home.
Dirty, sometimes very dirty, excited loud talking people in the pub after the meet.
Pub car parks left full of horse shit.
Etc.




honetpot said:



			The thing is we do not 'hunt' foxes anymore so why should interest vegans?
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Because some of you do. It's open knowledge that some hunts are deliberately laying very weak trails so that they have a legal excuse when their hounds 'accidentally' follow a fox trail. And in my area it is open knowledge in the hunting community that the midweek hunts in particular deliberately hunt fox. At a drag hunt once several years ago now, I was invited by someone who knows me very well to go out with a fox pack on a weekday. I asked her if they were going to hunt fox, and she looked at me a bit surprised and said 'yes of course'.

A while ago now the SNP scuppered David Cameron's plan to change the law so that more than two dogs could be used to flush to a gun. If that law had gone through, it would have made a conviction for illegal hunting nigh on impossible if anyone in the mounted or unmounted followers had been carrying a gun. The fight to continue hunting is still very strong more than a decade later.

Sabbing is continuing because there is a hard core of hunting still going on. When it stops, so will sabbing (but not dislike of other hunt behaviour) and the organised sabs will move on to shooting and possibly fishing.


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## Bernster (26 January 2019)

I do wonder if stabbing will continue and theyâ€™ll target drag or bloodhounds instead?  I get the feeling sabs donâ€™t like any of it. But the focus now of course is on fox hunting.

Can hunting survive as just drag or bloodhounds?

Agree with the commentary about social media and how much more effective the negative media is. It would take a heck of marketing campaign to counteract that.

Iâ€™ve only been out a few times a year so that may explain it but Iâ€™ve never experienced any of the above behaviour from hunt folks fortunately. I did find the trail hunt pack less friendly, and much prefer drag hunting for many reasons (not least of which is the assurance of seeing no foxes, and no sabs!).


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## ycbm (26 January 2019)

....


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## twiggy2 (26 January 2019)

ycbm said:



			Unfortunately, I think Joe Public's view of hunting, including drag hunting, is probably influenced by what they see of a hunt. I've either been right in the thick of, or associated with, the following on a regular basis:


Filling a pub at the meet with excited loud talking people wearing fancy dress who don't give the regulars a chance to get to the bar to place an order.
Parking lorries and trailers blocking small roads so other vehicles can't get through.
Parking heavy vehicles on pristine grass verges leaving dreadful ruts in them.
Holding up traffic for an unacceptable length of time by riding in a long pack or crossing over roads.
Hounds with disturbing scarring from hunt activity (kennel fights, barbed wire, etc)
People holding up traffic while cleaning down horses in the road before loading to go home.
Dirty, sometimes very dirty, excited loud talking people in the pub after the meet.
Pub car parks left full of horse shit.
Etc.




Because some of you do. It's open knowledge that some hunts are deliberately laying very weak trails so that they have a legal excuse when their hounds 'accidentally' follow a fox trail. And in my area it is open knowledge in the hunting community that the midweek hunts in particular deliberately hunt fox. At a drag hunt once several years ago now, I was invited by someone who knows me very well to go out with a fox pack on a weekday. I asked her if they were going to hunt fox, and she looked at me a bit surprised and said 'yes of course'.

A while ago now the SNP scuppered David Cameron's plan to change the law so that more than two dogs could be used to flush to a gun. If that law had gone through, it would have made a conviction for illegal hunting nigh on impossible if anyone in the mounted or unmounted followers had been carrying a gun. The fight to continue hunting is still very strong more than a decade later.

Sabbing is continuing because there is a hard core of hunting still going on. When it stops, so will sabbing (but not dislike of other hunt behaviour) and the organised sabs will move on to shooting and possibly fishing.
		
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I have experienced all of the above also the local (at the time) hunt meeting at a diy livery yard on a non fixture dates (repeatedly) whilst all diy horses were out, they knew that no horses were left out on hunt days, they also would not turn up on fixture dates meaning all horses were kept in for them to hunt and they did not bother to tell us they were not hunting. Also the whipper in riding (with hounds) through horses tied up on the yard at a 'spanking trot', now I know a fair few members if that hunt and they agreed the hunt meets were 'unruley' but that's what they liked about it.
Non of this made me an anti but it does cloud your feelings towards the hunt.


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## Red-1 (26 January 2019)

I used to go out with bloodhounds when I was younger, loved it.

When fox hunting was banned I decided to go out with them, only to find that the foxes had apparently merely been christened Ginger Rabbits and nothing much had changed. 

I don't have to agree with a law to believe it should be observed, that is what democracy is about. I have not gone out fox hunting since.

In our village last year the fox hunt came and ran over people's land, permission or not. At one time you would have notice of this and keep your animals in, but last year they were practising secrecy - in case of sabs -and they were where they should not have been, having a fine old time, whilst in the next field a pony got so distressed it ended up dead. Of course, they could not very well say why they were on that particular land, as if they had laid a trail they would not have been there. They did not just pass over either, but were there for a fine while.

They did apologise, and of course, maybe the pony would have died anyway in distress? It caused a lot of ill feeling as the pony was a much loved family pet.

Happily the man who invites them realised that this secrecy was not helping man or beast, and now we are told again so we can keep our animals in.  We are very much live and let live so no, no sabs were informed. People just let them get on with it. But the hunt does not help itself, on my way home a big, excited horse was prancing in the middle of the road, a mounted person holding court with the car followers, who were pulling out indiscriminately against traffic law, excited presumably by the chase.

I am not anti hunt, anti rich people or otherwise, but heck, it is manners to tuck your prancing horse to one side so I can pass. No, he was just chatting. Got a snooty look for waiting until he tucked in a bit.

I think it will be the end when communities no longer want to invite the hunts. Not necessarily the sabs. Just normal people who want to go about their business, want to know when hunts are coming, want to be able to drive home and want courtesy.


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## TGM (26 January 2019)

ponyparty said:



			Well no - being as drag hunting and bloodhound packs have been targeted, I think these people want rid of all of it! Unless they just can't tell the difference.
		
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In the cases where bloodhound or drag packs have been targeted it seems to have been by mistake, at least in our area.   They did target the local drag pack a couple of years ago, but think that was just mistaken identity - hasn't happened since.  I suspect someone saw a van of foxhounds arriving and thought it was the local foxhound pack instead.  And our local bloodhound pack hasn't been targeted by sabs at all in all the time we have been involved with them, which is about ten years.  The fact that the hounds are visibly not foxhounds does help in this respect!


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## Tiddlypom (26 January 2019)

Red-1 said:



			I don't have to agree with a law to believe it should be observed, that is what democracy is about. I have not gone out fox hunting since.
		
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This is how I feel. I did used to hunt pre ban. I have been out with 7 different packs (5 foxhound, 2 harrier, 0 drag or bloodhound) on 5 different horses, all pre ban.

Since the ban into force, I would not expect any active fox hunting to be taking place, but it clearly still does. Only last season I heard first hand of a 'screamer' of a day in which full opportunity was taken of an anti free meet, with the fox taking the hunt well outside of the cleared area and p1ssing off many landowners and animal owners who were taken unawares.

The local Monitor group always corrects people who see a hunt and post on their FB page that they shouted abuse etc at them, if that hunt was the local Drag pack. They know that the Drag pack does not hunt foxes so put folk straight.


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## Rowreach (26 January 2019)

I do agree that the law is the law and should be respected, but that applies to both sides.  I have seen the arrogance and ill manners of hunting people on occasions (and conversely their good manners and camaraderie on others), but I have seen far worse behaviour from the antis, and have also witnessed the police totally disregarding flagrant law breaking from them.

When I was hunting regularly pre ban in the south of England, we used to love meets which were close to the county town, because they used to deploy the traffic police to come out, and they clearly enjoyed their day in the country and off-motorway, and took their policing duties very seriously.

I wonder why people are more tolerant of other things that delay them or cause annoyance in the countryside, than they are of the spectacle of the hunt.  I rather enjoy tootling behind a tractor or waiting for a herd of cows or flock of sheep to come along the lane.  I would be far less worried about a few tyre marks on a verge than I am about the yobs who fire their fast food wrappers out of their car windows up the lane from here, or park up in a field gateway and leave behind their lager cans and evidence of their amorous activities.

I posted on the thread the other day, that in an area (Northern Ireland) where hunting live prey is still legal, the antis still managed to go out and sab a drag hunt in the new year ...


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## Tiddlypom (26 January 2019)

Tootling along behind a tractor and waiting for cattle or sheep on the road is part of country life. Being held up by the 'spectacle' of the hunt, with horses, hounds and car followers gormlessly and unnecessarily blocking the roads is something else. Too many hunts think that everything in the country must still stop for the hunt + extras like it did in the old days, and are oblivious to the disruption they cause.


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## Rowreach (26 January 2019)

Tiddlypom said:



			Tootling along behind a tractor and waiting for cattle or sheep on the road is part of country life. Being held up by the 'spectacle' of the hunt, with horses, hounds and car followers gormlessly and unnecessarily blocking the roads is something else. Too many hunts think that everything in the country must still stop for the hunt + extras like it did in the old days, and are oblivious to the disruption they cause.
		
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Like I said, I have seen arrogant behaviour by people out hunting, and pretty appalling behaviour from other road users, and criminal behaviour by the sabs.  It could be argued surely that the spectacle of the hunt is part of country life.  It certainly used to be, and judging by the popularity of Boxing Day meets, many people still enjoy that spectacle.

There's intolerance all over these days.  Seems a shame to me.


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## tallyho! (26 January 2019)

Isbister said:



			In my view, the ongoing Brexit debate has served to expose an extreme form of joyless and puritanical intolerance that is fast becoming the norm in this country. It is a form of fascism, pure and simple - my way or the highway. You see someone doing something you don't understand, or having a bit of fun, and you put a stop to it.
		
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That's a bit short-sighted of you... how do you know these people don't understand? Plenty of anti-hunt people used to hunt (and have seen the horrific end to a supposedly legal hunt). Plenty of vegans were meat eaters. In fact, many farmers lead the compassion argument in farming - it's thanks to them we have the highest livestock welfare in the world.

Since when has being intolerant to cruelty been joyless fascism? Brexit has nothing to do with it.

The hunt (shoots/fox/drag/fishing etc) will never save the countryside. They think they will, bless them, but people need housing. There's a lot of people sitting on acres and acres of green belt building sites just waiting for the developer to come knocking. Believe me.


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## Sandstone1 (26 January 2019)

The hunt often meets near me with no warning.   If you have a horse or pony thats upset by it thats just tough because they dont have the manners and decency to warn you.
This is due to the secrecy and underhanded behaviour of the hunt and their attempts to carry on hunting foxes without the interference of the antis.
If they are hunting within the law why are they concerned that anyone will see them?
can they not have the common decency to warn people with animals that they will be around?


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## honetpot (26 January 2019)

Perhaps I have just been very lucky. In my twenties I was anti-hunting, I then saw how hunting actually worked and how much land owners had put in the development of the country side. I went hunting to see for myself, to see how it actually worked, and made my mind up on balance there were more positives than negatives and there was more , animal distress caused by the farm practices at the time. This was when I stopped eating meat. Most of there are now outlawed here, so like plastic waste we have shipped our problem abroad.

  As to yobs on the roads. Live in any town with a league football clubs and there are plenty to be seen on match days, I resent having to pay for their control. The violence they attract it seems at any level is unbelievable all in the name of sport, were people are abused and beaten up, on the basis of their race or the colour of their scarf.
  I have lived in two hunting areas and I have never had problems with the hounds, the MFH always contacted me, when they were going to be near my paddock, but he can only contact you if he or his staff know you. 
To be honest where I live now I am more bothered by people shooting which seems some weekends to go on all day, and pop up all over. Some of the members local shoot were sexist louts judging by there language in the pub. 

  I used to take my children hunting, and run the gauntlet of the anti's which they we taught to smile sweetly at and be very polite to. Going way out of sight of the anti's was nothing to do with keeping it secret, why court trouble when you can avoid it? No one in their right mind would seek confrontation, where someone on 500kg animal is always going the look intimidating, just by being on a horse.


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## Isbister (26 January 2019)

tallyho! said:



			That's a bit short-sighted of you... how do you know these people don't understand? Plenty of anti-hunt people used to hunt (and have seen the horrific end to a supposedly legal hunt). Plenty of vegans were meat eaters. In fact, many farmers lead the compassion argument in farming - it's thanks to them we have the highest livestock welfare in the world.

Since when has being intolerant to cruelty been joyless fascism? Brexit has nothing to do with it.

The hunt (shoots/fox/drag/fishing etc) will never save the countryside. They think they will, bless them, but people need housing. There's a lot of people sitting on acres and acres of green belt building sites just waiting for the developer to come knocking. Believe me.
		
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Are you talking about hunting pre-ban? Accidental kills, perhaps?

I've seen more than a few kills, but none were 'horrific' - swift and clean are the adjectives that come to mind. The corpse being torn apart by hounds is something that generally happens post mortem, but either way, it's a far swifter end than other ways of controlling foxes such as poisoning or shooting them. I've had maggoty and poisoned foxes dying in my garden before now and it's not a nice end.

Are there many antis who used to hunt? How anyone could ever have gone hunting in the first place, yet had not the slightest inkling of what was going to happen, what the ultimate purpose was, and what this might mean in terms of what they might see, seems a bit of a puzzle. 

The arguments and overly emotive language touted by antis online suggest to me an almost wilful inability to understand the full picture. Controlling the fox has to be done one way or another.


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## meleeka (26 January 2019)

I donâ€™t think itâ€™s the actual kill that people generally have a problem with, itâ€™s the chase before it and the fact that people are getting enjoyment from controlling the fox population, rather than doing it solely because it needs to be done.  Itâ€™s the idea of posh people riding roughshod over the country getting a thrill out of chasing a wild animal that people object to,
not the controlling of foxes. 

I think hunting with dogs will die out just because the land available is shrinking at an alarming rate or it certainly is where I live. What used to be strategic gaps with farmland is now being built on.


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## Rowreach (26 January 2019)

meleeka said:



			I donâ€™t think itâ€™s the actual kill that people generally have a problem with, itâ€™s the chase before it and the fact that people are getting enjoyment from controlling the fox population, rather than doing it solely because it needs to be done.  Itâ€™s the idea of posh people riding roughshod over the country getting a thrill out of chasing a wild animal that people object to,
not the controlling of foxes.

I think hunting with dogs will die out just because the land available is shrinking at an alarming rate or it certainly is where I live. What used to be strategic gaps with farmland is now being built on.
		
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I think you are right, the shrinking country, major roads and increase in traffic will stop it long before the antis will.

I was lucky enough to spend nearly 20 years hunting with a truly professional huntsman who had a huge respect for the countryside and its wildlife, and an amazing rapport with his hounds.  It was a smallish pack and I never felt there was any glorification in controlling foxes this way.  However, once a year we were visited by a very well known "posh" pack, and were expected to show them a good day (which usually meant using the prime country with the most jumps and giving them a bit of a hooley), but their behaviour when hounds did in fact get a fox was absolutely abhorrent - baying, laughing, trying to get close enough to see what was happening - quite disgusting and certainly made me question their mentality


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## tallyho! (26 January 2019)

Isbister said:



			Are you talking about hunting pre-ban? Accidental kills, perhaps?

I've seen more than a few kills, but none were 'horrific' - swift and clean are the adjectives that come to mind. The corpse being torn apart by hounds is something that generally happens post mortem, but either way, it's a far swifter end than other ways of controlling foxes such as poisoning or shooting them. I've had maggoty and poisoned foxes dying in my garden before now and it's not a nice end.

Are there many antis who used to hunt? How anyone could ever have gone hunting in the first place, yet had not the slightest inkling of what was going to happen, what the ultimate purpose was, and what this might mean in terms of what they might see, seems a bit of a puzzle.

The arguments and overly emotive language touted by antis online suggest to me an almost wilful inability to understand the full picture. Controlling the fox has to be done one way or another.
		
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People can and do change their minds about things.


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## splashgirl45 (26 January 2019)

ycbm said:



			Unfortunately, I think Joe Public's view of hunting, including drag hunting, is probably influenced by what they see of a hunt. I've either been right in the thick of, or associated with, the following on a regular basis:


Filling a pub at the meet with excited loud talking people wearing fancy dress who don't give the regulars a chance to get to the bar to place an order.
Parking lorries and trailers blocking small roads so other vehicles can't get through.
Parking heavy vehicles on pristine grass verges leaving dreadful ruts in them.
Holding up traffic for an unacceptable length of time by riding in a long pack or crossing over roads.
Hounds with disturbing scarring from hunt activity (kennel fights, barbed wire, etc)
People holding up traffic while cleaning down horses in the road before loading to go home.
Dirty, sometimes very dirty, excited loud talking people in the pub after the meet.
Pub car parks left full of horse shit.
Etc.




Because some of you do. It's open knowledge that some hunts are deliberately laying very weak trails so that they have a legal excuse when their hounds 'accidentally' follow a fox trail. And in my area it is open knowledge in the hunting community that the midweek hunts in particular deliberately hunt fox. At a drag hunt once several years ago now, I was invited by someone who knows me very well to go out with a fox pack on a weekday. I asked her if they were going to hunt fox, and she looked at me a bit surprised and said 'yes of course'.

A while ago now the SNP scuppered David Cameron's plan to change the law so that more than two dogs could be used to flush to a gun. If that law had gone through, it would have made a conviction for illegal hunting nigh on impossible if anyone in the mounted or unmounted followers had been carrying a gun. The fight to continue hunting is still very strong more than a decade later.

Sabbing is continuing because there is a hard core of hunting still going on. When it stops, so will sabbing (but not dislike of other hunt behaviour) and the organised sabs will move on to shooting and possibly fishing.
		
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yes they will move on to shooting because that is seen as a posh persons sport,    fishing will be safe as it is seen as not a posh sport but a working mans hobby.....the hunting debate was never about killing foxes, it was about persecuting the posh people....foxes are still being legally killed by gun because in some areas they are causing havoc but how accurate are the marksmen, how many foxes are killed outright?     i am neither for or against fox hunting but i am concerned that animals may not be killed with one shot and will be left maimed to die slowly...


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## tallyho! (27 January 2019)

Hahaha!! Persecuting posh people??!?


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## splashgirl45 (27 January 2019)

tallyho! said:



			Hahaha!! Persecuting posh people??!?
		
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are you agreeing or not?   in case you wonder i am definitely not posh,  you would know the minute i spoke, and also couldnt afford to go hunting even if i wanted to (which i donr)


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## Versatile (27 January 2019)

The sabs have formed in here in Ireland too where fox hunting is legal. Iâ€™d have to disagree with the person saying the members have bad manners, at least for my local hunts. 

There are two local hunt clubs in my area and they arenâ€™t big enough to cause huge disruption as described in other posts. The locals like to see them and come out to the village to see them off. They only come here twice a year. 

The only nay sayers would be the animal cruelty crowd obviously. Iâ€™ve never heard people giving out about disruption. 

I havenâ€™t hunted myself in around five years or so.


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## Tiddlypom (27 January 2019)

Isbister said:



			Are there many antis who used to hunt? How anyone could ever have gone hunting in the first place, yet had not the slightest inkling of what was going to happen, what the ultimate purpose was, and what this might mean in terms of what they might see, seems a bit of a puzzle.
		
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Like honetpot, I rationalised my years of hunting because I believe that the countryside in general, and foxes in particular, were better managed in the days of legal hunting. I knew we were out to do a job, which was to catch the fox, but was always happy if we got a good run and ended up giving it best.

The day I was most uncomfortable was one where we ran the fox to ground. They dug it out, with hounds surrounding the hole, waiting for the fox to bolt. Out it shot, and scarpered, leaving the hounds looking rather silly. The younger members of the field may have cheered were very relieved, as we did not think that was sporting at all. I recall we got a bolloxing. An incident like this could easily have put a sensitive soul off - I wouldn't have been happy if it was routine, but it only happened once.


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## Isbister (27 January 2019)

meleeka said:



			I donâ€™t think itâ€™s the actual kill that people generally have a problem with, itâ€™s the chase before it and the fact that people are getting enjoyment from controlling the fox population, rather than doing it solely because it needs to be done.  Itâ€™s the idea of posh people riding roughshod over the country getting a thrill out of chasing a wild animal that people object to,
not the controlling of foxes.

I think hunting with dogs will die out just because the land available is shrinking at an alarming rate or it certainly is where I live. What used to be strategic gaps with farmland is now being built on.
		
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It may be the perception that the hunt get a thrill from persecuting foxes - that is the idea that the antis like to cultivate. I can only say that, from my own participation in different hunts, the enjoyment was derived principally from the riding and the sheer unpredictability of the chase. A lot happens on the spur of the moment. I have never seen any glorification or revelling in the kill that some have reported seeing, though I'm not saying it hasn't happened. Certainly some people resent seeing other people enjoying themselves.


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## tallyho! (27 January 2019)

If the hunt really were serious about controlling fox population, then they ought to be hunting out in towns. Come to our house, we've got at least 8 or 9 of the little bleeders right underneath my shed.


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## Keith_Beef (27 January 2019)

tallyho! said:



			If the hunt really were serious about controlling fox population, then they ought to be hunting out in towns. Come to our house, we've got at least 8 or 9 of the little bleeders right underneath my shed.
		
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How many do you need for a coat?


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## ycbm (27 January 2019)

Tiddlypom said:



			. An incident like this could easily have put a sensitive soul off - I wouldn't have been happy if it was routine, but it only happened once.
		
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Why do you need it to happen more than once that you saw?. It clearly happened often around the country. I don't think you need to be 'a sensitive soul' to find that kind of behaviour unacceptable.

I went cubbing once. It was the most disgusting thing I've ever experienced with a horse.





Spoiler: Cubbing, don't press if squeamish. 



Cubbing was renamed Autumn Hunting as a PR exercise. It is to teach young hounds to kill fox. The followers, mounted and on  foot are positioned around a piece of woodland and told to make a lot of noise, either with their voices or banging their boot with their whip. The hounds are put into the covert, the young foxes can't escape because of the followers and the hounds slaughter the cubs. This activity is now completely illegal and I hope has died out.


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## Mule (27 January 2019)

Versatile said:



			The sabs have formed in here in Ireland too where fox hunting is legal. Iâ€™d have to disagree with the person saying the members have bad manners, at least for my local hunts.

There are two local hunt clubs in my area and they arenâ€™t big enough to cause huge disruption as described in other posts. The locals like to see them and come out to the village to see them off. They only come here twice a year.

The only nay sayers would be the animal cruelty crowd obviously. Iâ€™ve never heard people giving out about disruption.

I havenâ€™t hunted myself in around five years or so.
		
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There were antis at one of the Clare hunts a couple of weeks ago. Apparently everyone was in shock! Times have really changed. The 'visitors' didn't cause any trouble at least.


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## Tiddlypom (28 January 2019)

ycbm, digging out foxes when the hole was surrounded by hounds wasn't routine when and where I was hunting. Once a fox had gone to ground, IIRC it was normally given best. Maybe it was a known rogue fox that the farmer had especially asked the hunt to target, but I don't remember, it happened back in the 70s. I was outlining for Ibister's benefit why some antis may have previously hunted but seen things which changed their minds, like you after you had been cubbing.

I was recently reading the autobiography of Michael Clayton, the former long time editor of Horse and Hound. It seems that the MFHA did something concrete for once and much later banned the practice of digging out whilst surrounded by hounds, after another pack was seen doing similar.

I think the OP dismissing antis as just being resentful of other folk enjoying themselves is disingenuous.


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## Isbister (28 January 2019)

Tiddlypom said:



			...
I think the OP dismissing antis as just being resentful of other folk enjoying themselves is disingenuous.
		
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It's a bit more complex than that - there is resentment of a number of things that the hunt represents to those of the anti mindset. The antis also have a rather grim and joyless determination to impose their own view of things.


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## tallyho! (29 January 2019)

Oh poor little Isbister... those grim and joyless anti's spoiling all her/his lovely fun in the countryside and how dare they impose their stupid little opinions...  Boo hoo hoo. Come one everyone, lets go chase them away with our keyboards and cups of tea.


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## Isbister (29 January 2019)

tallyho! said:



			Oh poor little Isbister... those grim and joyless anti's spoiling all her/his lovely fun in the countryside and how dare they impose their stupid little opinions...  Boo hoo hoo. Come one everyone, lets go chase them away with our keyboards and cups of tea.
		
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I suppose it takes all sorts, but I don't know why you bother posting here, on a forum intended for hunting matters, when I get the impression you don't really approve of hunting.

But perhaps you can explain to me  why a group of people engaging in an activity that is entirely legal, on private land and with the owner's permission, should have to endure what in many instances amounts to criminal harassment by masked trespassers? I've seen hunt saboteurs in action on sufficient occasions to have formed the opinion that their real motivation is to try to provoke a confrontation, and if possible a violent one. Their supposed concern for wildlife is pretty much a subterfuge, no more than a flakey pretext and at best formulated on an inconsistent and partial understanding of natural ecology.


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## meleeka (29 January 2019)

Isbister said:



			It's a bit more complex than that - there is resentment of a number of things that the hunt represents to those of the anti mindset. The antis also have a rather grim and joyless determination to impose their own view of things.
		
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I donâ€™t think thatâ€™s necessarily true either. Back to the media, I think people have done a really good job of making it seem as if all hunts still carry out illegal activities so why would peoples opinions have altered?
Being a posh sport isnâ€™t why itâ€™s disliked. Iâ€™ve never heard of anyone turning up at a polo match to make sure all is as it should be.  

I think pro hunt people also have a determination to impose their views so not so different there. Thatâ€™s why any hunting threads always turn into arguments, because supporters and antiâ€™s both feel equally as strong on the subject and canâ€™t ever see the other sides point.


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## Rowreach (29 January 2019)

Interesting statement from Cheshire Police ...

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/police-fo...nmFs60Cq0KylLstgwINQsSWrn9mgy3b7AQwznmxP6cilo


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## tallyho! (29 January 2019)

Isbister said:



			I suppose it takes all sorts, but I don't know why you bother posting here, on a forum intended for hunting matters, when I get the impression you don't really approve of hunting.

But perhaps you can explain to me  why a group of people engaging in an activity that is entirely legal, on private land and with the owner's permission, should have to endure what in many instances amounts to criminal harassment by masked trespassers? I've seen hunt saboteurs in action on sufficient occasions to have formed the opinion that their real motivation is to try to provoke a confrontation, and if possible a violent one. Their supposed concern for wildlife is pretty much a subterfuge, no more than a flakey pretext and at best formulated on an inconsistent and partial understanding of natural ecology.
		
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Oh sorry I mustâ€™ve missed the instruction I can no longer post if I no longer hunt.

I said I was against idiots that hunt.


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## GSD Woman (29 January 2019)

I recently worked with a man from Scotland.  He said in the UK that foxhunting is very much considered a sport of the wealthy and disliked for that reason.  In the USA it is mostly wealthy people but the middle class hunts as well.  Loss of land is a bigger problem here.


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## ycbm (29 January 2019)

Isbister said:



			It's a bit more complex than that - there is resentment of a number of things that the hunt represents to those of the anti mindset. The antis also have a rather grim and joyless determination to impose their own view of things.
		
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They may well be. But I'd bet my bottom dollar, in my area at least, that if hunts stop hunting fox and start laying heavy trails that they can call their hounds back to reliably, i.e. an unquestionably legal drag hunt, ,that the Police will have a lot more sympathy with controlling the antis if they know the hunts aren't cocking a snook at the law.

I'd also bet that sab behaviour moves to an entirely different sport and the drag hunters are largely free to enjoy their sport with the odd stupid comment from passers by, just like at present.


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## ycbm (29 January 2019)

Rowreach said:



			Interesting statement from Cheshire Police ...

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/police-fo...nmFs60Cq0KylLstgwINQsSWrn9mgy3b7AQwznmxP6cilo

Click to expand...

It's an interesting piece; a plea from the Police about the difficulty of investigation and the time it takes them. They appear to be asking people not to ask them to investigate things posted on social media.  How does that fit with other types of crime?  If the video of an apparent crime is shown online, they have a duty to investigate. Think how many crimes have been prosecuted after video on social media..  Their request should be to the sabs posting the stuff, not the public for responding. Their request is unreasonable.

I have personally been invited, post ban, to hunt fox. I'd suggest anyone who is concerned about whether illegal hunting still exists goes out on midweek meets  to satisfy themselves that the full requirements of the law are being met.

The sabbing problem for hunts laying decently strong trails, able to call their hounds off a fox scent, hunting entirely within both the letter and spirit of the law is a real problem. But until they can persuade all hunts to do the same, this problem will not end.


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## Rowreach (29 January 2019)

ycbm said:



			It's an interesting piece; a plea from the Police about the difficulty of investigation and the time it takes them. They appear to be asking people not to ask them to investigate things posted on social media.  How does that fit with other types of crime?  If the video of an apparent crime is shown online, they have a duty to investigate. Think how many crimes have been prosecuted after video on social media..  Their request should be to the sabs posting the stuff, not the public for responding. Their request is unreasonable.

I have personally been invited, post ban, to hunt fox. I'd suggest anyone who is concerned about whether illegal hunting still exists goes out on midweek meets  to satisfy themselves that the full requirements of the law are being met.

The sabbing problem for hunts laying decently strong trails, able to call their hounds off a fox scent, hunting entirely within both the letter and spirit of the law is a real problem. But until they can persuade all hunts to do the same, this problem will not end.
		
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I agree with your second and third paras. 

Not sure about your first, I read it that they would be perfectly happy to investigate in instances where the video footage was accurate, but that most of it is edited to inflame public opinion, which isn't really doing anyone any favours, whichever side of the fence one it.

What surprises me on a daily basis is that so many people still believe everything they see on Facebook!


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## Tiddlypom (29 January 2019)

There are at least three separate groups of antis currently operating in Cheshire - pretty much every meet is targeted by at least one of them. One of the groups call themselves sabs, and are sabs. Another says they are monitors, but they are sabs. The third group calls itself monitors, and are indeed monitors.

The two sab groups cause mayhem by interfering with the hounds by use of fake horn calls and gizmos. This also means that the hunt has a ready made excuse if a fox is killed as the hounds have been confused by the sabs. The sabs are playing up to the public but are a right bunch of amateurs. These are the groups that IMHO the police have the most doubts about.

The monitor group do not directly interfere with the day's sport, they merely record it all. I don't have a problem with this group - if the hunt stick to legal trail hunting, and don't, for instance, sneak in an opportunity to have a 'screamer' of a day chasing a live fox when they believe they are not being monitored, then all will be good.


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## ycbm (7 February 2019)

The sab problem in Cheshire will cease once Cheshire based hunts stop hunting fox.  I live in Cheshire, and it is open knowledge in the hunting and drag community which hunts hunt fox and when.

Until the last hunt stops hunting fox, and the  legal trail hunts lay trails strong enough to keep the hounds on them,  all hunts in the area except the drag will still be sabbed


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## Fred66 (7 February 2019)

Tiddlypom said:



			Like honetpot, I rationalised my years of hunting because I believe that the countryside in general, and foxes in particular, were better managed in the days of legal hunting. I knew we were out to do a job, which was to catch the fox, but was always happy if we got a good run and ended up giving it best.

The day I was most uncomfortable was one where we ran the fox to ground. They dug it out, with hounds surrounding the hole, waiting for the fox to bolt. Out it shot, and scarpered, leaving the hounds looking rather silly. The younger members of the field may have cheered were very relieved, as we did not think that was sporting at all. I recall we got a bolloxing. An incident like this could easily have put a sensitive soul off - I wouldn't have been happy if it was routine, but it only happened once.
		
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This is why the middle ground of licencing the hunts would have been a better option.

Using hounds to hunt foxes is the best method of natural selection in that it does tend to lead to healthy stronger foxes surviving and the sick and the ill being killed. 

Shooting is nondiscriminatory and therefore healthy and sick are killed with equal abandon. Speaking to a friend the other week and she said the estate near her had shot over 80 foxes this winter so shooting is by no means a better option for the fox.

Also as someone else said sabs are going out deliberately breaking the law and use the excuse that they are doing so to try and prevent another one being broken. This is vigilantism and is not an acceptable excuse. They are free to monitor from public roads and byways, but aggressive and intimidatory behaviour is not acceptable especially when children are included within their target audience.


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## ycbm (7 February 2019)

Shooting is nondiscriminatory and therefore healthy and sick are killed with equal abandon. Speaking to a friend the other week and she said the estate near her had shot over 80 foxes this winter so shooting is by no means a better option for the fox.
		
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Shooting, apart from lamping by yobs, is not indiscriminate. In this area, where there has never been any fox hunting, itkills the foxes which are taking livestock/birds and leaves the ones causing no problems alone. 

Hunting, on the other hand, takes any fox that it can find, whether it is causing any issues or not.

If they have that many, then the estate near you would almost certainly be shooting as well as hunting foxes if hunting still existed on that estate.

I don't see that the number of foxes shot has any bearing on whether it is a better option for the fox to be shot or hunted.


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## Fred66 (7 February 2019)

ycbm said:



			The sab problem in Cheshire will cease once Cheshire based hunts stop hunting fox.  I live in Cheshire, and it is open knowledge in the hunting and drag community which hunts hunt fox and when.

Until the last hunt stops hunting fox, and the  legal trail hunts lay trails strong enough to keep the hounds on them,  all hunts in the area except the drag will still be sabbed
		
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If you have evidence that they are hunting illegally then give it to the police. If not then what you are talking about is hearsay.

Sabs are vigilantes and have no place intimidating people by trespassing onto private land to disrupt a lawful pastime. Their actions frequently lead to the result that they purport to be trying to stop as they disrupt the hunt staff which leads to loss/reduced control of hounds which can lead to them following an unintended trail.


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## ycbm (7 February 2019)

Yup, it was hearsay,  I heard it said. A personal invitation to hunt fox on a midweek day in Cheshire. A personal friend complaining about sabs in another county, who when I asked him why they were being sabbed, laughed and said 'because we hunt fox!'.  The Police know about it, they just don't have the resources to do anything about it, because it's a difficult crime to prove.


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## Bob notacob (20 February 2019)

ycbm said:



			Shooting, apart from lamping by yobs, is not indiscriminate. In this area, where there has never been any fox hunting, itkills the foxes which are taking livestock/birds and leaves the ones causing no problems alone.

Hunting, on the other hand, takes any fox that it can find, whether it is causing any issues or not.

If they have that many, then the estate near you would almost certainly be shooting as well as hunting foxes if hunting still existed on that estate.

I don't see that the number of foxes shot has any bearing on whether it is a better option for the fox to be shot or hunted.
		
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Sorry but this is not my experience. 9 out of 10 fit healthy foxes will evade a pack of hounds . I have however seen many foxes killed while in extremis from gunshot wounds. A quick death or gas gangrene. I know which I would choose.


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## ycbm (20 February 2019)

Bob notacob said:



			Sorry but this is not my experience. 9 out of 10 fit healthy foxes will evade a pack of hounds . I have however seen many foxes killed while in extremis from gunshot wounds. A quick death or gas gangrene. I know which I would choose.
		
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What did you think 'any fox it can find', meant Bob? If they can't find it, they can't kill it. 

I've lived in a shot, unhunted, area (by invitation and by very occasional rogue lampers) for nearly thirty years. I've never seen a fox, dead or alive, with gunshot wounds.


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## 9tails (21 February 2019)

I find it ironic that the title is "No place for live-and-let-live in an intolerant world; will hunting survive?". Bearing in mind the OP doesn't much care for the legal trail and drag hunts, calling them â€œpale imitationsâ€, I suspect that the live-and-let-live ideal wouldnâ€™t be on the agenda for Mr Fox.




			Real hunting was pretty much run off the road by Blair. Modern hunting, and drag-hunting, are merely pale imitations of the real thing.
		
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## Bob notacob (23 February 2019)

ycbm said:



			What did you think 'any fox it can find', meant Bob? If they can't find it, they can't kill it.

I've lived in a shot, unhunted, area (by invitation and by very occasional rogue lampers) for nearly thirty years. I've never seen a fox, dead or alive, with gunshot wounds.
		
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Not only if they cant find it they cant kill it ,but even if they do find it ,if it is fit and healthy ,it will loose hounds in short order . Sadly I have seen numerous foxes with gunshot wounds run down by hounds. At least hounds kill or loose a fox ,they dont leave them wounded.


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## paddi22 (23 February 2019)

I grew up hunting since i was  a kid, and I love hunting. But someone said something to me recently that really made me pause for thought. they said 'if there was  a gang of kids on a housing estate with quad bikes and staffies, chasing a  rabbit around a park, there would be uproar' 

and they were right. It really made me think how much in love I am with the notion of hunting and the tradition of it. 

But it it was kids in a housing estate doing something similar, I'd probably be horrifed. Because once its stripped of its history and glamour, it's fairly awful. And I am someone whose house is covered in hunting pics!


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## Mule (23 February 2019)

paddi22 said:



			I grew up hunting since i was  a kid, and I love hunting. But someone said something to me recently that really made me pause for thought. they said 'if there was  a gang of kids on a housing estate with quad bikes and staffies, chasing a  rabbit around a park, there would be uproar' 

and they were right. It really made me think how much in love I am with the notion of hunting and the tradition of it. 

But it it was kids in a housing estate doing something similar, I'd probably be horrifed. Because once its stripped of its history and glamour, it's fairly awful. And I am someone whose house is covered in hunting pics!
		
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Good point. I definitely think people who are ok with hunting are ok with it because it's normal to them. 
I've only drag hunted so haven't given much thought to the ethics of fox hunting. I think, because to me fox hunting is an everyday activity it doesn't feel wrong like the example you gave of the kids and the rabbit. It's interesting how we perceive these things.


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## meleeka (23 February 2019)

paddi22 said:



			I grew up hunting since i was  a kid, and I love hunting. But someone said something to me recently that really made me pause for thought. they said 'if there was  a gang of kids on a housing estate with quad bikes and staffies, chasing a  rabbit around a park, there would be uproar'

and they were right. It really made me think how much in love I am with the notion of hunting and the tradition of it.

But it it was kids in a housing estate doing something similar, I'd probably be horrifed. Because once its stripped of its history and glamour, it's fairly awful. And I am someone whose house is covered in hunting pics!
		
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This is a good point. Would people use the same arguments in this scanario such as â€œitâ€™s a quick deathâ€ or â€œitâ€™s ok because it only gets the ill or old onesâ€.   Making anything run for itâ€™s life isnâ€™t ok with me and I think most people dislike stag hunting for this reason.


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## ycbm (23 February 2019)

paddi22 said:



			I grew up hunting since i was  a kid, and I love hunting. But someone said something to me recently that really made me pause for thought. they said 'if there was  a gang of kids on a housing estate with quad bikes and staffies, chasing a  rabbit around a park, there would be uproar' 

and they were right. It really made me think how much in love I am with the notion of hunting and the tradition of it. 

But it it was kids in a housing estate doing something similar, I'd probably be horrifed. Because once its stripped of its history and glamour, it's fairly awful. And I am someone whose house is covered in hunting pics!
		
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Paddi22,   I'm going to quote this post every time a defence of hunting comes up in future. I can't think why it never occurred to me. It absolutely encapsulates the whole argument.


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## ycbm (23 February 2019)

Bob notacob said:



			Not only if they cant find it they cant kill it ,but even if they do find it ,if it is fit and healthy ,it will loose hounds in short order . Sadly I have seen numerous foxes with gunshot wounds run down by hounds. At least hounds kill or loose a fox ,they dont leave them wounded.
		
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For sure, Bob, a fox can always outrun  a hound with legs twice the length it's got, and nobody digs them out and throws them to the pack if they succeed in evading the pack and go to ground. 

Apologies for the sarcasm, but I live in country that has never been fox hunted in  a National Park, surrounded by sheep farms and coverts,  and it isn't riddled with gangrenous foxes.  Farmers know who can shoot, and if they have a fox taking livestock, they call one of them. Same if we get too many deer. Hunters hunt all foxes, whether they are taking livestock or not. 

And if a fox dies of gangrene, you are only comparing that with ONE incident of being hunted and killed by a pack of hounds. In reality, that fox might have been chased for its life many times before, and that has to be added into the equation of cruelty  vs benefit. 

And so must cubbing, which I described earlier in the thread. Which kills an entire pack of cubs each time it's carried out, (for several weeks before the start of the season)  simply as a training exercise for young hounds. When I first described my experience of cubbing on this forum many years ago now, a man who is a bird shooter, farmer and strong supporter of hunting accused me of lying, he found it so impossible to believe. 

If there would be uproar at Paddi22' s  'kids on a housing estate', imagine the outrage if cubbing was generally known about by the public!


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## palo1 (24 February 2019)

paddi22 said:



			I grew up hunting since i was  a kid, and I love hunting. But someone said something to me recently that really made me pause for thought. they said 'if there was  a gang of kids on a housing estate with quad bikes and staffies, chasing a  rabbit around a park, there would be 
uproar'

and they were right. It really made me think how much in love I am with the notion of hunting and the tradition of it.

But it it was kids in a housing estate doing something similar, I'd probably be horrifed. Because once its stripped of its history and glamour, it's fairly awful. And I am someone whose house is covered in hunting pics!
		
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This is a very interesting perspective and a useful one too! However, it is not quite a comparable scenario to my mind: for one thing a rabbit is a very different animal to a fox, with different abilities and habits.  I am not sure if you are referring to trail hunting (post ban) or pre-ban fox hunting but certainly fox hunting never involved, in my experience, the use of quad bikes to chase a fox!!  Foxes were usually a considerable distance away from hounds which follow a scent (I dread to think of how staffies might hunt...!) and of course, fox hunting took place over very large areas of the countryside and not at all in an urban park where a rabbit or other animal would have incredibly limited chances.  I have many, many times in the pre-ban past seen a fox completely calmly trotting well away from hounds which follow a scent on the ground.   More often than not, healthy foxes are not killed by hounds, not least because they have a number of strategies for avoiding them.  Foxes are predators, well equipped to evade other predators which would naturally hunt them (as they do in other countries).  I can't quite accept ycbm's version of cubbing - which I witnessed many times when younger and was never, in my experience about wiping out whole litters of cubs but was far more about dispersing young foxes and about teaching young hounds to follow a scent.  I have never met anyone else who believed that cubbing was about killing whole litters of fox cubs.  I don't claim to be anything like an expert and for some years felt very ambivalent about fox-hunting and sought out information for both pro and anti arguments until the ban came in.   Perhaps my part of the country is different to others but certainly this version of cubbing is not one I am familiar with.  

It is quite perturbing to link the first scenario (of a gang of kids hunting a rabbit in a park with quads and staffies) with any kind of hunting: they seem like completely different things to me but I get the reference to packs of dogs & humans pursuing an animal I suppose.


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## Tiddlypom (24 February 2019)

palo1 said:



			I can't quite accept ycbm's version of cubbing - which I witnessed many times when younger and was never, in my experience about wiping out whole litters of cubs but was far more about dispersing young foxes and about teaching young hounds to follow a scent. I have never met anyone else who believed that cubbing was about killing whole litters of fox cubs.
		
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I can confirm that ycbm's version of cubbing did used to happen, I have witnessed it several times when the hunt were around locally, mostly (but not always) pre ban. I did not go cubbing myself as a rider, maybe it was done differently in the West Country (where I used to hunt) to here.

The field surrounds a covert. Hounds are put in the covert. The field makes a lot of noise to deter the young foxes from escaping the covert, so the new young hounds get some nice easy kills to help them learn their job.

It is beyond me as to how preventing the young foxes from escaping from the covert assisted in their  'dispersal', as the 'official' version states was one of cubbings' main aims . Though I suppose that one or two braver ones may break out past the encircling field.


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## ycbm (24 February 2019)

YCBM's version of cubbing is the one she herself went on with the Berkeley Hunt. She was so disgusted by it, she never went again.


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## palo1 (24 February 2019)

I didn't mean to suggest that you hadn't experienced what you say you have btw, but to say that I have never had that experience nor know anyone else that has.  It is curious that experiences differ so much.


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## Bob notacob (24 February 2019)

Tiddlypom said:



			I can confirm that ycbm's version of cubbing did used to happen, I have witnessed it several times when the hunt were around locally, mostly (but not always) pre ban. I did not go cubbing myself as a rider, maybe it was done differently in the West Country (where I used to hunt) to here.

The field surrounds a covert. Hounds are put in the covert. The field makes a lot of noise to deter the young foxes from escaping the covert, so the new young hounds get some nice easy kills to help them learn their job.

It is beyond me as to how preventing the young foxes from escaping from the covert assisted in their  'dispersal', as the 'official' version states was one of cubbings' main aims . Though I suppose that one or two braver ones may break out past the encircling field.
		
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I am astounded that any hunt draws enough followers for cubbing ,to surround a cover . Even a very small cover of ,say 5 acres would take at least 60 riders at 10 metres apart . My experience has always been that the field may well line up along the side of a cover but other sides are left open.


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## Tiddlypom (25 February 2019)

Bnac, I'm only reporting on what I have seen locally. I don't know how common the practice was in other hunting countries. I did see it happen  at least one further time in the early post ban days, but not recently.

The field didn't try to form an intact physical barrier, they spaced themselves out and made up for lack of numbers by making a lot of commotion. You get quite a good turnout for cubbing/Autumn hunting hereabouts, once the starts get a bit later in the morning later in the season .


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## ycbm (25 February 2019)

60 would have been a small meet for the Berkeley in the eighties. And very small for the Beaufort. 

The cubs were contained by noise. Everyone talking loudly and banging their boots or their saddles with their whips.  We were probably 10 metres apart from each other. 

Why do fox cubs need man's 'help' in dispersing, Bob?  They are territorial and largely solitary animals, not pack animals, it's natural to them to disperse when they are old enough.


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## Bob notacob (25 February 2019)

ycbm said:



			Why do fox cubs need man's 'help' in dispersing, Bob?  They are territorial and largely solitary animals, not pack animals, it's natural to them to disperse when they are old enough.
		
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I think you need to direct this question to whoever put that argument forward


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## palo1 (25 February 2019)

I have always understood that fox cubs were dispersed so that they were less of a nuisance to local livestock: they will stay in an area where there is plenty of food or until they are driven out by other foxes - sometimes there is enough food or other mating partners that an area can become quite 'thick' with foxes, which is what we see in urban areas now.  By dispersing them, this was less likely to happen and also, wittingly or unwittingly mimics the kind of predation that foxes evolved with. There are parallels in Yellowstone park - the moving on and disturbance of animals by top predators throughout the ecosystem is seen to be beneficial across the board.  Healthy, strong foxes were good for fox-hunting and good for fox health generally so dispersal (rather than wholesale slaughter) may have been beneficial to everyone.  I don't know what to say about the surrounding of a covert as I have never seen that nor hunted where that sort of number of a field was evident.  In other areas it does work differently: in hill country for example where there simply aren't those sorts of coverts: foxes are in gorse/bracken/hedges.   In other sorts of country too I understand that parts of a covert may have been 'lined out' but in order to prevent foxes from heading in a particular direction: sometimes because that direction wasn't to be hunted and sometimes to encourage young foxes to head out into open country where they could, indeed be hunted and tested.  A fox with experience of being hunted was considered 'better' and was more evidently stronger, fitter and 'better' stock for the local fox population.  I can't see what slaughtering a whole litter of cubs would achieve in old fashioned hunting terms but clearly this is something that others have seen/got more knowledge of.  I have seen the kind of thing ycbm refers to in films but always assumed that this was an inaccurate sensationalisation of one element of a hunting day.


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