# Navicular



## DGIN (12 April 2010)

First of all I just want to say 'Hi' to everyone on here as i'm new to this!!

I have an Irish TB who has just been diagnosed with Navicular. I have looked on many different websites to try and understand it a bit more but have got myself more confused really! 

I think if I could hear from people who have been in this situation before, how they dealt with it (treatment etc) and what the outcome was I would be able to understand it a bit better 

Thanks


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## criso (12 April 2010)

There have been quite a few posts recently so if you search you will find some experiences.  You may also want to use caudal foot pain, collateral ligament damage or ddft damage as search terms.

Here are a couple.

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=360176&highlight=Navicular


http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=351936&highlight=collateral


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## reindeerlover (12 April 2010)

Hi, my horse has navicular and has for many years. He has been kept sound by initially rebalancing his feet with heel wedges as they were very broken back and then regular (4-5 weekly) shoeing with natural balance shoes and now center fit. He has good and bad days but it doesn't help that he is quite a big chap and rather heavy in the chest/shoulder region so most of his weight is in front. Different things work for different horses so do what you find works- try to keep him out as much as possible to keep the circulation going and try to work more in straight lines than circles if you can, this has helped my boy. Good luck and keep researching!


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## DGIN (12 April 2010)

Thanks, i'll have a look at them!


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## DGIN (12 April 2010)

At the moment he has heart bar shoes on and gel pads and seems to be sound in walk (ever so slightly lame in trot). The vet has said that he is only allowed out in a restricted paddock for 1 hour a day which isnt working out, he keeps escaping through the electric fence and the rest of the day he is box walking as he is kept in on his own. I made the decision last week to put him back in his bigger field (still only about 1/2 acre or so) with his friends and he has chilled out as i leave him out all day. I know the vet did not want him out but i didnt think he was doing much good box walking and escaping from other fields! He is on 1 bute a day now and allowed to be ridden on a flat surfact in a straight ish line for up to 1/2 hour a day and seems to be doing well. I hope iv made the right decision about turning him out.


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## reindeerlover (12 April 2010)

Ask your vet if he's meant to be on box rest due to the risk of pulling the bar shoes off? Is he on bar shoes to allow the heel to flex? Maybe it would be worth contacting an AWCF farrier with experience in remedial shoeing to discuss the foot confirmation? I know that all the issues may be different but my horse had very low heels and hsi toes looked long so to counteract the appalling foot balance we hiked up the heels to make the balance better and decrease the pressure from the DDFT on the navicular bone. This in turn made his heels grow in a better shape and eventually he didn't need the wedges any more. He has great looking feet from the outside now but his heel bulbs are still contracted and his frogs are a bit rubbish. Not much more we can do at this stage in his life though so we just take each day as it comes!


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## mrdarcy (12 April 2010)

I really recommend googling barefoot and navicular - more and more people are going the barefoot route with their navic horses and finding that with a proper rehab program their once lame and written off horses come 100% sound, and stay sound as long as the shoes are kept off. Remedial shoeing can relieve the pain to a greater or lesser degree but it's not a cure whereas the barefoot route results speak for themselves. This is a great article to read http://www.hoofrehab.com/NavicularSyndrome.htm It's just common sense really. You might also look at http://www.rockleyfarm.co.uk/Rockley_Farm/Research.html where they have been rehabbing navicular cases for a while and are currently undertaking research with Liverpool Vet School. There are loads of photos and videos of the rehab cases on the blog http://www.rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/

I had a navicular diagnosed horse a few years ago, degeneration of the bone on x-rays. I was given two choices de-nerve - which is don't agree with - or PTS. I wish I knew then what I know now - that navicular is completely curable (though many are still sceptical but it took years before accepted opinion on pin firing changed from being THE treatment for tendon injury to being recognised as pointless). Now I would have taken his shoes off, done the rehab and had many more happy years with him.


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## JaneyP (13 April 2010)

My yard owners horse has navicular and she gives him Navilox from the vets, he has been sound since being on this, with no special shoeing,


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## misst (13 April 2010)

It all depends whether your horse has true navicular or 'navicular syndrome'. True navicular tends to occur in older horses or heavier breeds. Young TBs don't tend to suffer from true navicular although this doesn't mean it isn't possible and I know some cases where it has happened. Navicular syndrome is used to cover a large number of injuries including soft tissue damage within the foot (collateral ligaments, DDFTs, etc). Soft tissue damage needs to be treated very differently to navicular. With both conditions good shoeing is key, however with soft tissue damage rest is also important. My only advise would be to make certain you know which you are dealing with.

Edited - just remembered I'm on Mum's computer so this is her account, oops! (Normally Marchtime)


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## stormybracken (14 April 2010)

As well as the rockley farm website MrDarcy detailed, have a look at www.performancebarefoot.co.uk .

Good luck, I hope things turn more positive for you and your horse.


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## DGIN (14 April 2010)

Many thanks for all the replies; he is 17 now so i&#8217;m guessing it is true Navicular? He seems to be doing well anyway with the heart bars on. He is also on a strict diet to take some weight off his feet (think he has fallen out with me because of this!!)

The vet said that she didn&#8217;t want him out in a big field as she didn&#8217;t want him charging about, he has got over reach boots on and his heart bars don&#8217;t really hang too much from the back of his hoof so i&#8217;m hoping he won&#8217;t pull it off. The ground isn&#8217;t boggy anymore so i&#8217;m hoping for the best.

From reading different articles I was under the impression that part of the cause was bad blood flow to the area so I would of thought him stood in his box wouldn&#8217;t be doing any good? Being out in the field he can walk around free all day.

Here is a picture of his heart bars and gel pads (I hope)


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## mrdarcy (14 April 2010)

Navicular - or rather navicular where bony changes could be seen on x-rays used to be blamed on lack of blood circulating to the bone, leading to it degenerating. There was no scientific basis behind this - just a best guess at the time.

The accepted thought now is that changes to the navicular bone are the result of soft tissue damage. The soft tissue damage always comes first. The deep digital flexor tendon runs round the back edge of the navicular bone. If this tendon gets damaged (usually as a result of low heels putting too much strain on the tendon and repeated toe first landing) it can result in bony changes happening to the navicular bone itself. The proof of this is that when you get a healthy balanced foot, with a strong heel and digital cushion the soft tissue damage heals and even bony changes can be reversed - resulting in no more navicular. Where once navicular was seen as incurable it is now not the case.

Heart bar shoes will relieve the pain - by raising the back of the foot (sometimes wedges are also used) and easing the strain on the DDFT. However it is not a cure as the horse will continue to land toe first rather than heel first as nature intended. The cure is achieved by growing a healthy foot with a thick digital cushion and strong heels and as a result gaining a proper heel first landing. This has been achieved time and time again by taking off the shoes, a good trim, proper diet and living and working in a suitable environment. Hope that helps explain things a bit.


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## reindeerlover (14 April 2010)

Your horse looks like he has decent heels already thank goodness, keeping blood circulating will help to ease discomfort but navicular syndrome/disease is generally now accepted to be caused by external factors including poor/irregular trimming and poor conformation. Unfortunately bone damage cannot be reversed and any invaginations on the caudal portion of the navicular bone will stay that way, you just need to remove pain from the equation to improve him. It is a degeneration in the bone and it is not cureable.


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## mrdarcy (15 April 2010)

http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2009/10/navicular-horses.html

http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2010/02/reversing-navicular-bone-damage.html

http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2010/02/stress-shielding-more-about-bones-and.html

http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2009/11/navicular-what-happens-next.html


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## merliebug (15 April 2010)

Hi there,
My 7yo TB was diagnosed with advanced and acute navicular last summer, with a very poor prognosis. He has since been on a course of navilox, and three doses of Tildren (through IV, every three, six and nine months; now due another dose) but at £470 a shot it's an expensive 'experiment' to undertake. 
He has had wedge shoes, pads (of various different types) but very few stayed on for longer than a day or two as he over-reaches terribly, even with boots on, and his hoof walls are fairly weak. We managed to get him to his best level of soundness with aluminium wedge shoes, which do still come off more easily, but are lightweight and a good compromise between heart-bar/ egg-bar and wedges. Merlot is not sound at the moment, but this is also due to having had to be walked in hand 3 times a day on the roads whilst on box rest for another injury, meaning that the hard surface has aggravated the navicular.

I think your horse's prognosis depends entirely on what your MRI report (if you had one done) shows; mine was pretty awful and gave very little hope, but even despite that we have sound days and even weeks. I try not to use bute too frequently as Merlot is so young and I would rather explore other options before using this solely, and relying on heavier and heavier dosing. (At the moment he has 1/2 or 1 sachet on bad days just to keep the pain at bay). I have looked into neurectomies, but still not convinced that these are entirely the best way to go - personal preference of course.

It's a demoralising condition to have to deal with, but I do know of horses who are living with navicular and still living happy and useful lives.

Good luck!


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## DGIN (15 April 2010)

He has had nevre blocks and xrays done and all that they said was there was slight darkness showing up on his front left xray. I really cant afford to start giving him Tildren as that sounds quite expensive! He seems to be comfortable at the moment and not in any pain so i will keep going as i am. He is far happier and chilled since being back out with his friends. New shoes due on soon and then the vet is coming out again to check on him so will keep you all updated. 

Thanks everone for the help!


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## DGIN (28 April 2010)

Vet came out again last Friday, we trotted him up and put him on the lunge. The vet was very impressed with his progress, she said he is hardly lame at all just throws the odd stride every now and again. His feet still arent the same shape but much better. Soooo he is off the bute completly but still walking out for 30 mins a day on flat ground in a straight line. The vet now wants to come out in a month to check his progress. So things are looking up


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## cptrayes (28 April 2010)

Farrierlover said:



			Unfortunately bone damage cannot be reversed and any invaginations on the caudal portion of the navicular bone will stay that way, you just need to remove pain from the equation to improve him. It is a degeneration in the bone and it is not cureable.
		
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This is not true in at least one case but I think probably most barefoot rehabs are the same. I know of  a 23 year old whose bar shoes were removed at 18, having been used for 6 years. He has been MRI'd out of interest and lesions on the navicular bone in the original radiographs are no longer present. It seems totally logical to me - when I broke my arm it mended. Why wouldn't a navicular bone "mend" if you take away the toe-first action that caused the damage in the first place? If the bone stayed damaged then surely the horse would stay lame, and they don't. I have one with navicular bone changes on his radiographs  with me at the moment and he is sound on the road in trot after nine weeks without shoes on.


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## soloequestrian (28 April 2010)

http://www.hoofrehab.com/NavicularSyndrome.htm
http://easycarenews.com/08-31-2009/articles/physiology-of-navicular/


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## maggiesmum (28 April 2010)

Farrierlover said:



			Your horse looks like he has decent heels already thank goodness,
		
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Am curious as to how you can tell from this angle?


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## Andalucian (29 April 2010)

You can see that the width across the heels is OK (not brilliant, but OK), but you can't see the length of the heels at all.

To me the size of the shoe looks very large for the foot, if the hoof wall meets the outer edge of that shoe, then its very flared and that indicates the diet prescribed is necessary.


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## shirley123 (30 April 2010)

if the hoof wall meets the outer edge of that shoe, then its very flared and that indicates the diet prescribed is necessary.[/QUOTE]

hi just reading this thread as i have  and had similar experiances and i did'nt understand the above  quote - does the type of diet dictate how a hoof grows - i apolize if i am having a 'blonde' momment


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## kezimac (30 April 2010)

diet affects entirely the way the feet grow - starch and sugar content - lack of magnesium in diet can produce poor brittle hooves. sugar in spring grass can cause senstive feet (footyness) and then ridges growing down hoof. 
Always aim for high fibre (good for guts) low starch and sugar content meals - feed magnesium if needed (magox or calmag) to supplement strong growth
diet wont ness affect way hoof grows (i.e. flared etc) but will affect strength and quality of horn


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## DGIN (5 May 2010)

He has now been off the bute since 23/04 and seems to be doing well on the straight, i notice he is still sore when turning round but not half as bad as he was. Below are some more picture of his shoes when they were first put on so that you can see his heel etc. I will try and get some more recent ones to see if you can see any change.


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## kezimac (5 May 2010)

wow he got some chunky legs!!!! - heels still look underrun - takes a while to get that sorted - toe looks short - sould still be shorter - my farrier sets eggbar back then rolls toe on shoes and foot so her toes are mega short. 
good he not on bute now and looking sounder. Hard ground is just rotten for them. 
I was considering taking mine barefoot if didnt come sound  is this something you would think about - alot of people say can help them - if he does come sound though - leave him in shoes for a bit.


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## DGIN (5 May 2010)

Yes i would consider barefoot if he doesnt come sound, i am going to continue with the heart bar shoes as he seems to be progressing well. I have had him without shoes for a short period before and he get awfully foot sore, but if it was to help him in the long run then anything is worth a try!!

Here's a pic of the main man himself last july winning supreme champion, never thought 7 months down the line he would have Navicular


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## rupertsmum (5 May 2010)

I feel so sorry for you. My TB has been diagnosed today with navicular and I'm totally devastated and I was just thinking that this time last year, who woul dhave thought that we'd be in this position.

some of the replies on here are really positive and are giving me some hope.

hope all goes well for you


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## kezimac (5 May 2010)

hey DGIN and rupertsmum have hope.... it is terribly hard ground at the moment. Mine went unlevel for a few weeks and is now sound again. She had been flying over winter no issues - DGIN she also been tried barefoot previously and flattest soles ever so gets sore - but if she hadnt come sound i would have taken her shoes off. 
Mine is not on bute and is working as normal again - its just a matter of management, no trotting on roads, watch whether ground is level or rutty and hard. Work on arenas as much as can and horses can be fine and go on for years.
there should be a navicular support group for all us navicular affected horse owners!!!!


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## Kayfamily (5 May 2010)

You could look on the UKNHCP Forum, they gave me a lot of advice when I thought my pony had Laminitis, there is a lot of good advice about going barefoot aswell if you decide too.


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## DGIN (6 May 2010)

Hey rupertsmum

When I got told the vet 'thinks' its Navicular I just cried and cried. I didnt know much about it but all I could think was that he would be a write off. Since reading up on Navicular and speaking to people on here I can now see a light at the end of the tunnel. You just have to find out what works best for your horse, at the moment these heart bar shoes seem to be working well but it could be that barefoot works best for yours?

Please keep us all updated as it helps to see how other people are progressing and how their horse is doing.   

kezimac, I started off riding my horse down the drive at the stables which took about 10 mins there and 10 mins back which was Ideal at first. I have just started taking him round the block which take approx 30 mins this means that he has to walk on grass at some point which he seems ok on as its nice and flat but there is a slight hill which he has to walk down which he seems to struggle more, he likes to take it steady so I just let him walk at his own pace down there so he is more comfortable. I think me and him both were sick of walking up and down this drive every night so a change of scenery is much better. 


I just want to thank everyone for their replies and hope everyone keeps us updated with their horses progress.


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## DGIN (6 May 2010)

Took some pictures last night of his feet now, so you can have a look at the before (02.03.10) 













and now (05.05.10) see if you can see much difference


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## Kallibear (6 May 2010)

With underrun tight heels like that I'm not surprised he's lame! You can actually see the crushed lines of heel growth at the back. His heels will be sore to walk on, causing toe-first landing and all the stress and strain on the flexor tendons and the navicular bone that entails. 

Until his heels improve and are comfortable to walk on, so he can land heel first as he's meant to, he's never going to be truly sound and you'll only be masking the symptoms. With some seriously good farrier-ing it might be possible to improve them enough, but it'll take a long time and a lot of effort (wedges and bars will make him temporarily more comfortable but in the long run are counter productive to actually fixing the problem)


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## DGIN (28 July 2010)

Hi, just wanted to give you an update on how he is getting on. 

I chucked him out in a flat field about 4 weeks ago right near the sea, I just left him and maybe once a week I took him for his 1/2 hr hack. I have then been on holiday for a week so he hasnt really done much. I came back from holiday and decided to trot him up, he looked pretty sound on the straight so decided to get the vet out again! 

He was shod 2 weeks ago with just heart bars on and no gel pads (yippee) farrier seemed to think that he didnt need them anymore. 

Vet cam out last Friday, we trotted him up and flexion tested him and he was sound on the straight, took him into the school and lunged him in trot, still short every now and again but the vet has said that he will probably always be like that? Soooo now I am allowed to bring him back into work slowly and start schooling again just no circles allowed, yay!! I will try and get some pics of his feet now to see the difference.


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## Jennyharvey (28 July 2010)

Its a pitty that more people dont understand that shoes can actually cause navicular.  You dont get navicular on a wild horse.  And its very rare on a barefoot horse.  
It doesnt make sense to me to try to correct something with shoes, that was caused by shoes in the first place.  
I dont agree with what the vet says, that thats just gonna be the way he goes.  Why not actually try to correct the cause, and you correct the problem.


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## MattFranks (28 July 2010)

Jennyharvey said:



			Its a pitty that more people dont understand that shoes can actually cause navicular.  You dont get navicular on a wild horse.  And its very rare on a barefoot horse.  
It doesnt make sense to me to try to correct something with shoes, that was caused by shoes in the first place.  
I dont agree with what the vet says, that thats just gonna be the way he goes.  Why not actually try to correct the cause, and you correct the problem.
		
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Ive seen more than one disected cadaver from dead feral horses that appears to have navicular remodelling and ossification of the lateral cartilages. Largely due to negative palmer angle of the pedal bone I'd of thought.


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## soloequestrian (28 July 2010)

MattFranks said:



			Ive seen more than one disected cadaver from dead feral horses that appears to have navicular remodelling and ossification of the lateral cartilages. Largely due to negative palmer angle of the pedal bone I'd of thought.
		
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That's interesting - do you have any more info on it?  Do you know what state the horse was in before it died?


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## Jennyharvey (28 July 2010)

MattFranks said:



			Ive seen more than one disected cadaver from dead feral horses that appears to have navicular remodelling and ossification of the lateral cartilages. Largely due to negative palmer angle of the pedal bone I'd of thought.
		
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Ye, if you had more info on this, it would be appreicated. 
I suppose i should have said that shoes were a cause of navicular, but they are not the only cause.  Poor hoofcare is the main cause, which, does include shoeing.


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## cptrayes (28 July 2010)

MattFranks said:



			Ive seen more than one disected cadaver from dead feral horses that appears to have navicular remodelling and ossification of the lateral cartilages. Largely due to negative palmer angle of the pedal bone I'd of thought.
		
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Were the horses lame before they died? If not, then it would never have been diagnosed with navicular syndrome. There are probably several with the same navicular bone changes in every livery yard that aren't lame but they never get xrayed because - they aren't lame. Lateral cartilage ossification is a natural ageing phenomenon.

What generally causes the lameness found in "navicular syndrome" (now a very outmoded term since MRI diagnosis) is most often damage to the deep digital flexor tendon caused by a toe first landing, and next often by collateral ligament damage caused by foot imbalance. It's that rapid healing once the shoes are off that convinces me that they cause the syndrome in the first place.


Most toe first landing and imbalanced feet is seen in horses with shoes. It should be noted, too, that "imbalance" does not mean the shoe was not set level on the foot. It can often mean that the horse NEEDED an "imbalanced" foot in order to compensate for something not quite perfect higher in the body and that forcing it to work on a foot square to its leg made it lame.

Did you assume that the feral horses with navicular bone remodelling has negative coffin bone angle or was it measured while they were alive and on their feet before the tissues all shrank due to drying out from being dead or expanded due to decay?

I have heard of only one barefoot horse that had "navicular syndrome" (I'm sure there must be some others, but it's difficult to find them), actually identified by MRI as severe DDFT lesions. That horse had  frogs that were suspended clear of the floor and a toe first landing. It has  now been treated for around six weeks at a rehab yard , its frogs are on the floor and it is heel first landing, and surprise surprise, it's also much sounder. 

It remains a fact that the overwhelming majority of horses suffering from "navicular sydrome" are shod, and also a fact that the vast majority of them come sound within months if not weeks (10 1/2 weeks in my case) of taking them barefoot with a good diet, the right work and a decent trim specific to that horse.


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## Orangehorse (28 July 2010)

Before I had even heard of the "barefoot horse" I asked someone if wild horses get navicular but didn't get an answer.

When I was growing up navicular was something that was in a veterinary book, but not really something that most people came across, it was something that typically older hunters suffered from.  Of course in those days most horses had time off in the field with no shoes for part of the year.  Now most horses are shod from age 4 and keep shoes on all year round, so their feet don't get a rest.


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## MattFranks (28 July 2010)

One was a bone colum only, seen during a lecture in America. Horse was apparently somewher IRO 12 - 15 yrs old, found dead. Xray of unloaded distal limb showed a -0.5 palmer angle. Extensive remodelling could be seen, and ossification along the upper palmer process. COD unknown, so no history. Foot was typically feral in appearance, ie looked very functional from the outside. Very healthy frog and bars, although very low heel, and typical natural wear patterns. I observed this in photos only.

Second horse was an Australian brumby, found alive seperated from the herd, acutely lame (subsequent xray revealed fractured P1, and swelling and wound was present). Horse was euthanased on site. Both forelimbs were removed and used by local farriers and vets for study. One limb(again unloaded, so I suppose that could affect the angle slightly) was xrayed and showed a +1.2 angle (not negative, but definately not whats considered healthy). Again, slight remodelling was present, along with associated DDFT lesion. Other limb wasnt xrayed but showed similar navicular lesions, plus ossification of the cartilages. I observed this first hand.


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## cptrayes (28 July 2010)

Oooh, DDFT lesions in a wild horse are interesting! Shame it also had a P1 fracture, which complicates the picture rather..... I would just love some seriously funded research into DDFT lesions in wild horses and barefoot rehabs in domestic ones. I'll just have to go and buy a Euro lottery ticket I guess


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## DGIN (29 July 2010)

Wow them replies are very interesting, thanks. 

As for shoes, do you reccommend that i take his shoes off then? I have spoken to my vet and farrier about this and non of them reccommend it? Maybe i need to ask why? I need to ride him on the roads regulary to keep him moving and he has very brittle feet so they would just break up without shoes on. I appreciate any advice.

Thanks


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## criso (29 July 2010)

DGIN said:



			Wow them replies are very interesting, thanks. 

As for shoes, do you reccommend that i take his shoes off then? I have spoken to my vet and farrier about this and non of them reccommend it? Maybe i need to ask why? I need to ride him on the roads regulary to keep him moving and he has very brittle feet so they would just break up without shoes on. I appreciate any advice.

Thanks
		
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My Vet and Farrier were completely against it - vet is now amazed at the change in his feet and my farrier was at the yard the other day shoeing someone and took a look" at Frankie's feet.  His comment was "oh my god, he's got heels now and said the break was the best thing I could have done for his feet.

Didn't tell him the break was permanent though.

I took the easy option though and had him rehabbed for me.  I put boots on for the moment for really sharp stony tracks but he is fine on the roads and normal tracks and any other surfaces.


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## Kallibear (29 July 2010)

Anyone with barefoot knowledge will recommend you take his shoes off as it DOES work. But most 'traditional' types, and that most definintly inculdes vets and farriers, are horrified at the thought as horses MUST be shod, of course. It's just a lack of knowledge and an unwillingness to change.

BUT it's not just a case of whipping them off and hoping he gets on with it. It takes commitment and knowledge to make sure he's not sore. He will be sensitive at first but he should NOT be sore - many think it's 'ok' for them to be sore to begin with, which is rubbish: they only grow healthier stronger feet if they are using them correctly, and they can't use them correctly if they are sore.

And if you are new to barefoot horses you will probably need help and advise on how to make it work. Unless you are lucky with your farriers, they won't be able/willing to give the kind of indepth advise on management (sucessful barefoot-ing has very little to do with the trim and 99% to do with the horses diet and management) so getting a trimmer in would probably be a good idea.


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## Ali2 (29 July 2010)

Barefoot, barefoot, barefoot


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## brucea (29 July 2010)

Well..... When the only tool you have is a hammer...

Quite how casting the hoof in an inflexible and concussion generating shoe, providing mainly peripheral support,  can help repair damaged soft tissue and associated bony changes is unclear to me.

Far better to let the hoof regrow naturally, in the shape the horse needs it to be to support the peculiarities of the column above it (and I see 0.5 deg palmar deviation a peculiarity of that horse rather than a pathology) and get into a shape where it is supporting rather than interfering with the balance requirements of the horse.  

Left to themselves, they will balance their hooves the way that they need them - and the results are often interesting to see. You might see for instance that one back hoof throw more on the inside, and if you take it away the horse is not comfortable. One of my lad's feet looks uneven and a trimmer or farrier might even them up, but recent xrays say the M/L and D/P alignment are spot on perfect, he maintains it himself, take it away and he is unsound. 

Shoes tend to impose an "ideal" on the horse - that's fine if it is an "ideal" horse - but how many of them really are? imho, the whole navicular/back of foot thing is caused by shoeing from an early age and preventing the development that occurs naturally in an unshod hoof

I'm very lucky - in my herd of 4,  I have one who was shod from an early age and shod for 10 years of his life - and another who has never been shod. Same breeding, same type. The difference in the feet, and in particular the back half of the foot and heel are very clear. Much better development of the digital cusions, thicker palmar extensions, deeper and meatier heels...on the one that has never been shod. My herd has been bare for 4 years now

I have reached a point now where I see shoeing as something we have done for our convenience, and a major hidden welfare issue in the horse world. I wonder how many of these horses would be sound for life if we never put shoes on in the first place.

P.S. I used to be a strong traditional minded shoeing enthusiast, and then I fell in with a real bad crowd


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## DGIN (30 July 2010)

Hi all, i managed to take some pictures of his feet this morning (apologies for the mud as he was in the field) let me know if you can see an improvement. I am going to persevere with the shoes for now but would be prepared to give barfoot a go it he doesnt progress.


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## DGIN (30 July 2010)

Obviously the muddy ones arent that helpfull, i didnt realise they were that bad!


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## brucea (30 July 2010)

Hard to tell from these pics - but these feet look contracted to me. A time without shoes will help to "open out" the back of the foot - the decontraction will in turn help the whole navic syndrome.


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## Kallibear (30 July 2010)

They look like pretty typical 'shoe-sick' feet. Heels are VERY contracted and quite underrun too, with dogdey hoof axis angle. I'm not suprise the horse is heel-sore. They could be fixable with shoes but I would't even know where to start. They can most definetly be fixed barefoot, and fairly quickly too.


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## brucea (30 July 2010)

Thanks Kallibear...I was trying to be subtle


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## Laura1812 (30 July 2010)

My thoughts (bearing in mind im going off limited photographs):

You look like you have a pretty bad central sulcus infection in the frogs for a start and contracted heels which will mean you have a very week digital cushion and soft tissue in the back of the foot.

They don't look like typical navicular feet though i.e. under-run, low heels, long toes.

My advice to you as a barefoot advocate would be to get the shoes off, treat the infections agressively, get a good EP out and start to handwalk on tarmac for 15 -20 mins a day - depending on lameness this could be with or without pads - and building up from there.

I would expect this foot to be rehabilitated in about 3 months with dedication.


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## Kallibear (30 July 2010)

I don't do subtle 

They look like many shod feet you see - most owners THINK they look ok because they aren't cracked or split but in fact they are really quite damaged.




			They don't look like typical navicular feet though i.e. under-run, low heels, long toes.
		
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I supect they are a lot longer toed than they currently look - that thick white hoof colour on the front (with otherwise black horn on chestnut legs) suggest the farrier has dumped a huge amount off the toe.


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## rupertsmum (30 July 2010)

please read my 'good news navicular story!

ps my AEp treated my boy with Clean trax to get rid of whiteline disease that nobody else had spotted and he walked away sound from the treatment. i think that if this had been spotted before the x rays we would never have known about the navicular.

pps i have a TB and 4 months ago i would NEVER have considered barefoot. please try it!


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## Ted's mum (30 July 2010)

go barefoot!!!!!!! cant recommend it enough...x


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## GMR (3 September 2010)

Ted's mum said:



			go barefoot!!!!!!! cant recommend it enough...x
		
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was this good for you then?


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## rupertsmum (4 September 2010)

rupertsmum said:



			I feel so sorry for you. My TB has been diagnosed today with navicular and I'm totally devastated and I was just thinking that this time last year, who woul dhave thought that we'd be in this position.

some of the replies on here are really positive and are giving me some hope.

hope all goes well for you
		
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Gosh I forgot that I wrote this!!

Last week we won a riding horse class and next week we have an RoR qualifier!! He is totally sound within 12 weeks...... Barefoot is the reason why this happened, so many stories on here are about navicular horses with remedial shoeing, box rest etc and mine was out in the field as soon as I spoke to my barefoot trimmer


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## Lila (4 September 2010)

I tried bar shoes on my girl but she just pulled them off all the time so decided to go barefoot. Best thing we ever did.
 We gave her a good 6months off living out ( with the odd walk round the field) and she never showed any problems after this. 

I really would recommend leaving out of work for a few months (our lived out for half the year) and see how he goes. Really worked well for my girl.


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## LucyPriory (4 September 2010)

DGIN said:



			Hi all, i managed to take some pictures of his feet this morning (apologies for the mud as he was in the field) let me know if you can see an improvement. I am going to persevere with the shoes for now but would be prepared to give barfoot a go it he doesnt progress.  































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OP the feet in these pictures look unhealthy to me.  The toe has obviously been heavily rasped and possibly also the quarters.  The top part of the foot is showing heavy event lines which are stretching at the heel.  I don't know what you are feeding but if this hoof were on my horse I would check the diet first.

The heels appear very contracted and under all that shoe and pad probably have a hefty infection of the central sulcus.  IMO the shoes and pads will not help this.

The diagnostics as described in an earlier post would appear insufficient for a concrete diagnosis of anything.

You may find (as has happened for others) that the caudal heel pain comes from the central sulcus infection and contracted heels.  Fix these, improve the trim and you may find that all the expensive vet treatment and shoeing is not necessary.

Good luck and best wishes.


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## cptrayes (4 September 2010)

Ditto. Agree totally with LP.

Definite signs of a sheared heel in those photos, almost certainly with an infection in. With infected heels causing him pain he could easily give symptoms of navicular even if he does not have it. And if he does not have it yet, sore heals will easily give  him it. Pads in that situation are simply a nightmare breeding ground for infection.


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## Kallibear (5 September 2010)

DGIN - how's you horse getting on? It's be interesting to know, esp as rupertsmum took the barefoot route suggested by so many and her horses is totally fixed.


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## Lainey123 (5 September 2010)

brucea said:



			P.S. I used to be a strong traditional minded shoeing enthusiast, and then I fell in with a real bad crowd
		
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Me too.lol. My boy was diagnosed with navicular, turned out 6 months later after an MRI that he had a lateral collateral strain to his near fore. He is now at Rockley Farm and doing really well, he is on their blog under Bailey W. We had tried every shoe under the sun and nothing worked, he was sound on a straight line but was short striding and lame on a circle. It was my last option after 18 months of trying everything, IRAP, tildren and so on. I would recommend going barefoot I was at my wits end and now it looks as though he is going to be alright, fingers crossed.x


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## criso (5 September 2010)

brucea said:



			P.S. I used to be a strong traditional minded shoeing enthusiast, and then I fell in with a real bad crowd
		
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Lainey123 said:



			Me too.lol. My boy was diagnosed with navicular, turned out 6 months later after an MRI that he had a lateral collateral strain to his near fore. He is now at Rockley Farm and doing really well, he is on their blog under Bailey W. We had tried every shoe under the sun and nothing worked, he was sound on a straight line but was short striding and lame on a circle. It was my last option after 18 months of trying everything, IRAP, tildren and so on. I would recommend going barefoot I was at my wits end and now it looks as though he is going to be alright, fingers crossed.x
		
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Well clearly both of you have come under the influence of some sinister barefoot cult


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## spookypony (6 September 2010)

criso said:



			Well clearly both of you have come under the influence of some sinister barefoot cult 

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OH! Can we please have a "Sinister Barefoot Cult" membership?  I feel the need to add to my siggy...


BTW, just finished a 6-day trek across the Highlands...riding 6--8 hours a day...8 of 10 horses were barefoot. Boots were used some of the time.


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## Lainey123 (6 September 2010)

criso said:



			Well clearly both of you have come under the influence of some sinister barefoot cult 

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Yeah, sure have....lol....


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## cptrayes (6 September 2010)

Dammit you're not going to go telling everyone that we use eye of toad and toe of newt with the brewer's yeast to get them sound, are you? That's supposed to be a secret between cult members


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## Luciejjkk (7 September 2010)

My horse first went lame in May/June 2009 and was finally diagnoised with Navicular in Jan 2010. 

I have tried absolutely everything (several steriod injections, Tildren, Naviculex, egg bar shoes) and he is still very lame.  He deteriorated rapidly a couple of months ago but seems to have stabalised now however he is still lame and is on 1 bute a day and devils relief to keep him comfortable.

I am yet to find anything successful but have researched the final option for me which is going barefoot.  He is going down to Rockley Farm in the next month and I hope the work they do there will help him.


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## LucyPriory (9 September 2010)

My vet has actually referred to me as a 'witch', but in the same breath he also encouraged me and I quote 'I don't know what you are doing, but keep on doing it because it obviously works.'

So I did, and it does 

But the only cauldron I possess is the one I make the weekly casserole in


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## cptrayes (9 September 2010)

But what's in the casserole ??????????????


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## criso (9 September 2010)

Luciejjkk said:



			I am yet to find anything successful but have researched the final option for me which is going barefoot.  He is going down to Rockley Farm in the next month and I hope the work they do there will help him.
		
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Good luck with that - Frankie loved being down there and he is going from strength to strength since he's been back.


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## Luciejjkk (10 September 2010)

criso said:



			Good luck with that - Frankie loved being down there and he is going from strength to strength since he's been back.
		
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Thanks Criso!!  I really hope they can help him because he is not happy


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## DGIN (8 October 2010)

Hi, sorry I haven't been on her in ages!! 

Ginger is still out in the field but is now 99% SOUND! There is the odd stride going downhill that you can feel it but nothing really. I have been walk, trotting and cantering in the school and he is really comfortable  I am very pleased with the farrier he has been great. I am going to leave ginger out over winter to have some time off, I have taken his back shoes off and he has now got normal shoes on the front, farrier said that he doesnt need heart bars on anymore and also with him not being ridden he doesnt need the extra support anyway. The vets have still never 100% found out that its Navicular but if it is (he showed all the normal signs) he has made great progress. I hope others out there do too! I think its personal preference whether you go barefoot or for the shoes, in my case the shoes seem to have done the job  I hope when I bring him into work in Jan Feb time he is still coping as well


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## DGIN (8 October 2010)

I also got some more pictures of his feet so you can all see the difference. Im sorry they are muddy again, he's in the field so there is no hope


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## brucea (8 October 2010)

Well clearly both of you have come under the influence of some sinister barefoot cult
		
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Very funny....you have no idea how sinister.  

DGIN - glad you have had a good result.


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## MerrySherryRider (9 October 2010)

So pleased for you ! My horse was diagnosed with navicular syndrome earlier this year and she too is sound and now hacking 7/8 miles without problem in all gaits. My vet and farrier worked together at each shoeing with wonderful results.


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## DGIN (22 October 2010)

Hello, 

I trotted ginger up the other day to check that he was sound in his 'normal' shoes and he wasnt :-( same leg he was short on before all the heart bars, rang the farrier and he said if you are definatly not doing anything with him then we will take his fronts off too, so now ginger has no shoes on and is barefoot in the field with his friends for the winter! I wasnt going to ride him over the winter anyway as he needs some good time off! 

He is a bit foot sore atm as he has always has shoes on but improving day by day, i have given him some bute too to help him through it. I will just leave him out now untill Jan/Feb time untill i decide if he is sound enought to get shoes (heartbars) on again for him to start work as he was sound with heart bars on, he must still need that extra support, or i may keep him barefoot??

Anyway he is happy out in the field, he has a shelter and a big bale of haylage - what more could he want!  

I'll just have to see how he goes!


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## cptrayes (22 October 2010)

DGIN said:



			what more could he want!
		
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A trim which is perfectly suited to his problems as frequently as he needs to keep him moving in a way which will heal his injuries. For a horse I know, a six week trim did not keep her sound and a two week trim looks as if it is doing the trick nicely.  Other horses need longer intervals. Some need to be allowed to grow deviations in the hoof wall to support problems higher in the leg and some have heels that shoot forwards or outwards if they grow too long. 

A barefoot cure for navicular is not just to remove the shoes and chuck them in a field, I'm afraid. He'd probably also benefit from staying in regular work. If you are simply laying him off for the winter prior to putting shoes back on, fair enough. But if you want the barefoot to produce the cure that it can for his syndrome, it may take a bit more input which plenty of people on here can advise you about.


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## DGIN (25 October 2010)

I will ensure that ginger feet get trimmed as often as they need it, I have been working closely with the farrier to ensure that we are doing the best for ginger and I will keep on doing that as he means everything to me. I do realise that I cant just leave him in the field for the winter, I am still feeding him and checking him daily. He is happy. I am not going to ride him at all over the winter as he deserves some time out to just chill. Why do you think that he would benefit being kept in work? I still dont understand Navicular as there are so many different answers


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## ferrador (25 October 2010)

believe me there are a lot more questions than answers when it comes down to good old navicular syndrome types of lameness
chris


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## cptrayes (25 October 2010)

DGIN said:



			I will ensure that ginger feet get trimmed as often as they need it, I have been working closely with the farrier to ensure that we are doing the best for ginger and I will keep on doing that as he means everything to me. I do realise that I cant just leave him in the field for the winter, I am still feeding him and checking him daily. He is happy. I am not going to ride him at all over the winter as he deserves some time out to just chill. Why do you think that he would benefit being kept in work? I still dont understand Navicular as there are so many different answers 

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Work tends to make their feet grow more quickly and a certain amount of stress, in the good sense of that word, results in a stronger repair of soft tissue injuries (which is why tendon injuries are now worked at walk as soon as possible). In addition, if your horse's syndrome is, as is shown by MRI scans to be the  usual case, actually a soft tissue injury (usually DDFT, sometimes impar or collateral ligaments) then controlled work would benefit, since it will not only cause a stronger repair but prevent adhesions that can cause more trouble than the original injury. Nic Barker used a great expression on her blog the other week "rest the injury, not the horse". Having said all that, if it suits you over the winter to rough him off completely, then he'll probably do fine if his feet are kept balanced and his mineral and vitamin levels kept up. Hopefully, you'll have a much sounder horse in the spring. Then watch for the spring grass. If you bring him back into work in spring and he goes unsound, don't immediately blame the old injuries, it could be a reaction to too much spring grass, which can be felt very early in a barefoot horse as "footiness". 

Good luck with this, I hope he comes sound for you.


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