# Can anyone help RSPCA identify those in this video?



## amandap (17 June 2011)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oC-g_nfOiw&feature=player_embedded


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## joeanne (17 June 2011)

Good Lord......
Shame the horse didn't come down on her head and knock some sorely needed sense into it!


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## trick123 (17 June 2011)

i wish! what a brave pair of ladies NOT!


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## amandap (17 June 2011)

Here's a post at the top of comments...
*RSPCA are now checking this video. Someone, somewhere must be able to identify these two. If anyone knows who&#65279; they are, don't post it on here, contact the RSPCA directly on             0300 1234 999      . Speciaist investigators looking into it now. *

Anyone who thinks this is an acceptable way to load a horse is seriously missing the point imo! Just because something is legal doesn't make it right or thoughtful and certainly doesn't make it kind! Grrr.


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## darkhorse123 (17 June 2011)

bakedbean said:



			Why are the RSPCA interested?
Whats the problem?
they are using a LEGAL cattle prod to load a horse...SO?

i've had one stuck on my arse..its just like a leccy fence jab..
horse wasnt that bothered was he?
		
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u are joking?????
i suggest everyone with fb shares this and asks their friends to share  also - baked bean you are just disgusting


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## Sarah Sum1 (17 June 2011)

bakedbean said:



			Why are the RSPCA interested?
Whats the problem?
they are using a LEGAL cattle prod to load a horse...SO?

i've had one stuck on my arse..its just like a leccy fence jab..
horse wasnt that bothered was he?
		
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Horse wasn't bothered! (sarcastic remark btw) He reared up and would have been off!

Ok, I think there are far more cases the RSPCA could be focusing on.

But surely this horse will end up associating that electric shock to loading? so not really going to solve the problem long term.


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## Polo*Pony (17 June 2011)

What nasty girls. I hope they're identified ASAP.


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## amandap (17 June 2011)

darkhorse123 said:



			u are joking?????
i suggest everyone with fb shares this and asks their friends to share  also - baked bean you are just disgusting
		
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Seconded! I got it from my FB news feed.


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## joeanne (17 June 2011)

bb that honestly scared me. The girl with the prod has NO hat on and the horse came close to coming down on her. The girl also used it at the wrong time. She was ready to zap when the horse was walking forward.
And although I couldn't swear to it, the horse was ready to load when it clocked her coming the second time and tried to go backwards.
Useful tool wrong applied in this instant.


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## dozzie (17 June 2011)

bakedbean said:



			Why are the RSPCA interested?
Whats the problem?
they are using a LEGAL cattle prod to load a horse...SO?

i've had one stuck on my arse..its just like a leccy fence jab..
horse wasnt that bothered was he?
		
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I agree with this. It took, what, 3 attempts, and the horse was in. 
Next time it will only need to see the prod. 

Where can i get one?


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## darkhorse123 (17 June 2011)

amandap said:



			Seconded! I got it from my FB news feed.
		
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ty amanda and baked beans or whatever your called  - if you really think this is acceptable behaviour i feel very sorry for your horses - how can you justify such cruelty????


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## Sarah Sum1 (17 June 2011)

dozzie said:



			I agree with this. It took, what, 3 attempts, and the horse was in. 
Next time it will only need to see the prod. 

Where can i get one?
		
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Will it though? Or will it freak out when it sees the box, knowing it's going to get zapped?

Unless they don't think that far ahead that is. 

Still, there are better ways, not very compassionate is it. But I wouldn't say it was serious cruelty, just unkind and stupid. Especially as she could have got booted in the head!


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## sprite1978 (17 June 2011)

I personally wouldnt use this technique, but are we going to outlaw electric fences, or the electric fences on horse walkers. These are designed to make a horse go forward, if it stops. 

I dont like the vid, but i dont think there is a case to answer in law.


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## darkhorse123 (17 June 2011)

bakedbean said:



			OK..shall we get this in context yes?

Cattle are treated like this at markets/farms/abattoirs on a daily basis...2 dumbass bitches post a vid on FB of themselves trying to load a horse that looked like it would have loaded quite happily if bitch #1 hadnt applied said prodder and made horse rear..who, IMO had had prodder "stuck" before without loading attempts, judging by his reaction to its introduction...and the RSPCA are up in arms about it?

give me a break...they are a bunch of tossers
		
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 I just really really hope you dont own a horse '"or cattle" as you say


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## joeanne (17 June 2011)

darkhorse123 said:



			ty amanda and baked beans or whatever your called  - if you really think this is acceptable behaviour i feel very sorry for your horses - how can you justify such cruelty????
		
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Grow up you silly person!
Do you think there is a difference between a cattle prod used on a cow and a horse?
Errr no there isn't.
The ONLY problems I have with that particular video is it was a) done by a muppet with no hat on and b) it was IMO applied at the wrong time, as from what I can see the horse was going to go in when she nipped up for a second zap. The horse will never learn if the tool is wrongly used....be it a cattle prod/lunge line/mr blue pipe.....insert your own choice here!


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## DragonSlayer (17 June 2011)

bakedbean said:



			maybe...but can we all then complain to the RSPCA at the use of a prod against Cattle?

disgusting?..get real
		
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True point here, whether people like it or not!


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## amandap (17 June 2011)

I am totally stunned and deeply depressed that anyone considers the use of electric shocks an appropriate training tool. Pain, pain and more pain, no wonder horses kick, bite and even sometimes attack humans! Who are the ones with the brains here then? Not those women that's for sure and I don't care how many degrees they might have, they haven't got any brains that matter as far as horses are concerned. 
I know this stuff and even wetting a horse to get more 'effect' (erm pain) goes on but seeing it has made me see red.


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## el_Snowflakes (17 June 2011)

bakedbean said:



			Why are the RSPCA interested?
Whats the problem?
they are using a LEGAL cattle prod to load a horse...SO?

i've had one stuck on my arse..its just like a leccy fence jab..
horse wasnt that bothered was he?
		
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tells us just what you are then.


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## Mike007 (17 June 2011)

Personaly ,I thought they handled it very well. Jabbed twice (jolt like an electric fence) Loaded like a lamb. The timing and understanding of the horses mental stance were spot on. I dont expect many will agree ,but then most people havent come across a truely difficult loader. The fact that the girl holding the horse was wearing a crash hat also suggests that they were expecting trouble. As for the RSPCA well they can go F++K themselves.


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## DragonSlayer (17 June 2011)

elsazzo said:



			tells us just what you are then.
		
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This has to be one of the most childish comments I have ever read on here.


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## Mike007 (17 June 2011)

the RSPCA are nothing but a bunch of media whores..[/QUOTE]

I wish I had said that !


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## Ranyhyn (17 June 2011)

Bad application, bad timing, bad set up but not a bad product (used properly) People use electric shocks in training dogs and on cattle as said above - if you are disgusted with its use - you have to be disgusted with the use of electric shocks on all animals.

I personally wouldn't do it - I think your timing has to be bang on and you have to be very careful, at one point I seriously thought she was going to get a boot to the face...

But if used once, properly and the horse loads sensibly ever after - fair deal I think.


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## darkhorse123 (17 June 2011)

joeanne said:



			Grow up you silly person!
Do you think there is a difference between a cattle prod used on a cow and a horse?
Errr no there isn't.
The ONLY problems I have with that particular video is it was a) done by a muppet with no hat on and b) it was IMO applied at the wrong time, as from what I can see the horse was going to go in when she nipped up for a second zap. The horse will never learn if the tool is wrongly used....be it a cattle prod/lunge line/mr blue pipe.....insert your own choice here!
		
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Im actually not a silly person joeanne - just one who doesnt and wouldnt  use cruelty or pain to get my horse to behave
If you want to be come ona horse forum and be "big" by prmoting animal cruelty so be it - but dont call me stupid because i dont or wont - i personally think there are other ways - 
No im not a "stupid person"  because i wouldnt ever electrocute my horse to do as i asked -


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## Ranyhyn (17 June 2011)

The_Hooligan said:



			If the RSPCA contact Youtube they will provide the IP adress and details etc, BakedBean has long since proved herself as scum. the sooner she is got rid of the better.
		
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I have reported your comment The_Hooligan, totally out of order and a ridiculous way to act, in what could have been a really interesting debate about a training method.


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## amandap (17 June 2011)

The cattle question is slightly different imo (though I don't like the use of these or sticks on cattle or any animal, surprise, surprise!) cattle aren't trained like we train horses and have to be moved en masse in stange places like markets and slaughter houses.


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## dozzie (17 June 2011)

Mike007 said:



			Personaly ,I thought they handled it very well. Jabbed twice (jolt like an electric fence) Loaded like a lamb. The timing and understanding of the horses mental stance were spot on. I dont expect many will agree ,but then most people havent come across a truely difficult loader. The fact that the girl holding the horse was wearing a crash hat also suggests that they were expecting trouble. As for the RSPCA well they can go F++K themselves.
		
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This...apart from the last part re the RSPCA copulating amonst themselves..we dont want indiscriminate breeding...


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## DragonSlayer (17 June 2011)

BoolavogueDC said:



			if you are disgusted with its use - you have to be disgusted with the use of electric shocks on all animals.

.
		
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Exactly.

Like it or not, one has to question.....a short sharp shock....or....leathering said animal for ages to get it into a box? I've seen THAT many times, believe me....


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## Muchadoaboutnothing (17 June 2011)

Nativeponies back again I see


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## sprite1978 (17 June 2011)

The_Hooligan said:



			If the RSPCA contact Youtube they will provide the IP adress and details etc, BakedBean has long since proved herself as scum. the sooner she is got rid of the better.
		
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I cant comment on this ststement, as I havent trawled back through past posts...However. We need to stop the inconsistancies we have when dealing with horses....THIS IS NOT CRUEL in the true sense.... If it is, then so are electric fences, horse walkers, spurs, whips, or anything else you choose to control, or direct your horse.


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## amandap (17 June 2011)

TFC! Sorry for causing a riot but I hope the link can stay at least a day or two.


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## minigal (17 June 2011)

You CANNOT compare an electric fence to this!  A fence is stationary and the horse can choose to stay away from it.  This horse was shocked deiberately and by someone who wanted to cause it pain.  Disgusting, there are so many ways to deal with bad loaders I can't see how anyone can justify doing this.

I don't think you can compare cattle to a horse either, I believe cattle have much thicker skin - hence why barbed wire is a suitable fence for them and not for horses.

I am no sensitive soul and I believe in discipline and punishment if necessary but this is just so so wrong.


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## Dobiegirl (17 June 2011)

Well Im a cruel sod, we had a pony prone to laminitis who was forever going through a mains fencer so I hosed him down before I turned him out. Once I caught him and repaired the fencer he never did that again.


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## joeanne (17 June 2011)

darkhorse123 said:



			If you want to be come ona horse forum and be "big" by prmoting animal cruelty so be it - but dont call me stupid because i dont or wont - i personally think there are other ways -
		
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Nothing "big" in it, you dont know me from Adam, and those that do will tell you I am no advocate of cruelty, but there is nothing in that video (other than the complete misjudging of when to "zap" and lack of a hat) that strikes me as "cruel".
And how do you know they have not tried every other way?
You dont!


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## tallyho! (17 June 2011)

Can I get one of those to zap my boys out of bed in the morning?

Seems ideal


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## teddyt (17 June 2011)

DragonSlayer said:



			Like it or not, one has to question.....a short sharp shock....or....leathering said animal for ages to get it into a box? I've seen THAT many times, believe me....
		
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Neither!




			far too many "precious" types around these days
		
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Because they prefer to see a horse loaded with patience and training as opposed to with a cattle prod?


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## Girlracer (17 June 2011)

I mean obviously the RSPCA won't do b***er all even if they do find them, but honestly as far as locating them there can only be so many hideous pink lorries sold in the UK. 

I've shared it on Facebook anyway.


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## Ranyhyn (17 June 2011)

^^ no taste - clearly pink lorries are the way forward!!


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## DragonSlayer (17 June 2011)

teddyt said:



			Neither!
		
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Of course neither are good, but we are talking about the lesser of two evils here.


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## MrsElle (17 June 2011)

Before we all start baying for the blood of the girls in the video, we shouldn't be jumping to conclusions.

We know nothing of the horse and its temperament.  There are difficult loaders who are petrified of loading.  The prod would be totaly inappropriate in that case, but if the horse is just being an arse, a prod properly used is no worse than a sharp crack with a whip.  

As for getting the RSPCA involved, I was going to say that it is wrong to waste their time investigating this video when there are proper cases of abuse out there.  On second thoughts though, it is right up the RSPCA's street, pandering to the fluffy bunny hugging public while true cases of neglect and abuse go uninvestigated.


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## amandap (17 June 2011)

tallyho! said:



			Can I get one of those to zap my boys out of bed in the morning?

Seems ideal 

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Perfect for crying babies who wont shut up too.  
I think every horse should be issued with one (actually a tazer would be better on humans, shuts them up too.) to use on their human when the human doesn't do what the horse is telling him.


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## blueneonrainbow (17 June 2011)

I can't imagine the RSPCA are genuinely interested in this when I've seen welfare cases they turned a blind eye to. As someone else has said... Cattle are just as intelligent as horses, you can't apply double standards to this!


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## darkhorse123 (17 June 2011)

let me get this clear - you are all  saying giving an electric shock ie pain and fear to your horse is ok????


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## tallyho! (17 June 2011)

darkhorse123 said:



			let me get this clear - you are all  saying giving an electric shock ie pain and fear to your horse is ok????
		
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Actually no.. technically, not ALL of us...


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## teddyt (17 June 2011)

DragonSlayer said:



			Of course neither are good, but we are talking about the lesser of two evils here.
		
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Yep, lots of evil people involved with horses


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## darkhorse123 (17 June 2011)

im actually so sad people think this is ok and acceptable - and we wonder why cruelty exists - im actually gutted people can defend this horrible video


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## joeanne (17 June 2011)

amandap said:



			Perfect for crying babies who wont shut up too. 

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Now exchange that crying baby for trappy teenagers that wont get out of bed and you could just about be onto something there!


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## tallyho! (17 June 2011)

amandap said:



			Perfect for crying babies who wont shut up too.  
I think every horse should be issued with one (actually a tazer would be better on humans, shuts them up too.) to use on their human when the human doesn't do what the horse is telling him. 

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Such fun!!!!!!


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## tallyho! (17 June 2011)

joeanne said:



			Now exchange that crying baby for trappy teenagers that wont get out of bed and you could just about be onto something there!

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That was my original idea!!!

Idea stealer!!!!!


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## DragonSlayer (17 June 2011)

teddyt said:



			Yep, lots of evil people involved with horses 

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Of course.

But many on here seem completely incapable of having a debate.

Time and again, it ends up in with a slanging match....why can we not sit and discuss the ways and means of HOW this might work, and WHY it's seen as wrong?


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## Echo Bravo (17 June 2011)

And as Baked bean and several others know Cattle prods are ILLEGAL, so anyone caught using them are on a criminal charge.


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## EAST KENT (17 June 2011)

The_Hooligan said:



			If the RSPCA contact Youtube they will provide the IP adress and details etc, BakedBean has long since proved herself as scum. the sooner she is got rid of the better.
		
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Aha..the happy hooligan appears again with a rabid statement


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## Muchadoaboutnothing (17 June 2011)

darkhorse123 said:



			let me get this clear - you are all  saying giving an electric shock ie pain and fear to your horse is ok????
		
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Heck no! But I'm sure I, along with you, will be accused of being a fluffy bunny soon 

There are alot of people on this forum that I would not let within a mile of my horses.


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## ezililaur (17 June 2011)

Taken from their YouTube chanel as a reply to comments I assume:

"This horse is 3yrs old and has been travelled regularly since a foal and always loaded first time, now she is bigger she has decided she would rather rear and jump on our heads, so surely this is a better option than having it rearing and causing an accident to itself or us. I take it that by searching for this video you are having trouble loading a horse, good luck with mamby pambying it and waisting hours of your time being taken for a mug by a horse. Kind regards mr turbin. "   

"rearing and causing an accident" Did that prod prevent that then? not from where I was sitting.

I thought they were vile, this response says it all.


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## darkhorse123 (17 June 2011)

Echo Bravo said:



			And as Baked bean and several others know Cattle prods are ILLEGAL, so anyone caught using them are on a criminal charge.
		
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really? good - who would do it on their horses????


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## tallyho! (17 June 2011)

DragonSlayer said:



			Of course.

But many on here seem completely incapable of having a debate.

Time and again, it ends up in with a slanging match....why can we not sit and discuss the ways and means of HOW this might work, and WHY it's seen as wrong?
		
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Except me!!! I'm just spectating.

Popcorn?


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## dozzie (17 June 2011)

EAST KENT said:



			Aha..the happy hooligan appears again with a rabid statement

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But should we just brush the comment aside?


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## amandap (17 June 2011)

Oh well, I'll leave the electric prods for you to play with and point at the RSPCA. 
I can guess what many on this thread will be wanting in their Xmas stockings.  Wish I hadn't bothered posting it, I'm thoroughly depressed at the thought that this will have given some peeps 'ideas.'  

H&H big lesson learned by me here.


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## teddyt (17 June 2011)

DragonSlayer said:



			Of course.

But many on here seem completely incapable of having a debate.

Time and again, it ends up in with a slanging match....why can we not sit and discuss the ways and means of HOW this might work, and WHY it's seen as wrong?
		
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I agree. I love a good debate


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## Ranyhyn (17 June 2011)

DragonSlayer said:



			But many on here seem completely incapable of having a debate.

Time and again, it ends up in with a slanging match....why can we not sit and discuss the ways and means of HOW this might work, and WHY it's seen as wrong?
		
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Agreed, some people are here to express opinions, get information and learn!  Simply because someone has an opinion, doesn't mean it can't be changed - but the only way that will be done is with reasoned, sensible discussion...not name calling.


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## darkhorse123 (17 June 2011)

Muchadoaboutnothing said:



			Heck no! But I'm sure I, along with you, will be accused of being a fluffy bunny soon 

There are alot of people on this forum that I would not let within a mile of my horses.
		
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i totally agree but do i care - dont let it bother you - you are obviously not evil xxxx


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## CatStew (17 June 2011)

It says on the comments that the horse is a 3yo. 

I dont agree with this method at all.  As stated in the other thread regarding this video, surely if the girl was standing at the horses side and not right in front of it she may be more successful?  I've seen plenty of bad loaders in my time and feel that there are better ways of dealing with this then electrocuting them!


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## teddyt (17 June 2011)

darkhorse123 said:



			really? good - who would do it on their horses????
		
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I cant comprehend someone who thinks 'my horse wont load- wheres the cattle prod'  The thought wouldnt even enter my head!! There are some crazy uneducated people out there, thats for sure. Another example of horsemanship gone AWOL


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## Echo Bravo (17 June 2011)

And again you stupid lot CATTLE PRODS ARE ILLEGAL. Anyone caught using them is a criminal offfence. You cann't not use them on cattle or anything else have been illegal for several years in this country.


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## Tinkerbee (17 June 2011)

This place is bizarre at times.

Some people need to get out of the Shires and see some proper cruelty to get their knickers in a twist.

Sad really, what goes on and people pass by yet this video has us on a manhunt.


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## minigal (17 June 2011)

I have no idea whether it is legal or not?  But I think the only possible justification for using one on a horse (not a cow - thay ARE totally different) is to get a horse out of a situation more distressing/dangerous than using the prod.  If that makes sense.  It is totally inappropriate in that video, the horse wasn't being an arse prior to being shocked, granted the handler had a hat on and had some nifty footwork but she was blocking the horse from loading to start with.  The one doing the shocking was laughing.  It is bullying, dominating and the ultimate quick fix.  If you read the comment from the maker of the video they say the horse had only recently started playing up. 

I don't care a jot who gets involved with identifying these people they either need some serious education or some kind of repurcussion to stop them doing this.  It's obviously not the first time they did it and they looked to be enjoying it.

This is not the way to treat horses


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## SJcrazee (17 June 2011)

I've seen worse TBH.

So I suppose it would have been acceptable if the animal was walloped with a carrot stick or had a parelli rope slapped around it's head??

The way it was loaded was not ideal, but the horse was loaded fairly quickly in the end, but then again I personally despise those flimsy little vehicles for travelling horses in - but that's a whole new can of worms isn't it??


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## MrsElle (17 June 2011)

Echo Bravo said:



			And as Baked bean and several others know Cattle prods are ILLEGAL, so anyone caught using them are on a criminal charge.
		
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Where did you get that information from?  I have just done a quick search of online UK shops, including ebay, who sell cattle prods in the UK.  If they were illegal ebay would definately not be selling them, and I doubt the other online shops would be too.


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## Sarah Sum1 (17 June 2011)

amandap said:



			Oh well, I'll leave the electric prods for you to play with and point at the RSPCA. 
I can guess what many on this thread will be wanting in their Xmas stockings.  Wish I hadn't bothered posting it, I'm thoroughly depressed at the thought that this will have given some peeps 'ideas.'  

H&H big lesson learned by me here.
		
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Don't be down, i'd like to think people wouldn't even consider getting one! I didn't think it was seriously cruel. but still is cruel in the sense that they are not bothering to take time to help the horse past it problems, there is no compassion. Just a quick jolt of pain. 

Difficult loaders can be helped without the use of shocks.


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## Echo Bravo (17 June 2011)

Defra and they are illegal, believe me and they should not be on sale.


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## Ranyhyn (17 June 2011)

Echo Bravo said:



			And again you stupid lot
		
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Well you are very pleasant aren't you?  How on earth is someone going to _know_ that unless they come into contact with livestock?  Another bang out of order reply on this thread...no wonder I keep away from bonkers NL if possible nowerdays...


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## GeeGeeboy (17 June 2011)

Stupid idiots! That girl didn't lead the horse to the box properly to start with, just turned and looked ai it. No wonder it didn't load. The cattle prod was totally un necessary .


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## tallyho! (17 June 2011)

GeeGeeboy said:



			Stupid idiots! That girl didn't lead the horse to the box properly to start with, just turned and looked ai it. No wonder it didn't load. The cattle prod was totally un necessary .
		
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Do you think they from Essex??


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## EAST KENT (17 June 2011)

Oh I find Hooligan popping up with a rabid comment quite funny! Anyway..after all that I got to watch the vid!!  I think the mare was just trying it on,and quite quickly thought it was a far better idea to load as she had always done before. 
   I have seen "loadings" many times worse than this,and prolonged into as much as an hour as well,in fact one was a mare I was returning (it spun and bolted as a habit)Watching the dealer loading her almost had me in tears,and it was then I realised why she was so terrifyed by any whip around her.SO..this mare..what I would really like to know is..does she now load easily as before??
   No, I have no desire to use a prod on anything,just interested.


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## MurphysMinder (17 June 2011)

I've googled and found the statement "cattle prods are illegal for people who are not dealing with livestock", so you can't use them on the annoying yobs in your street, but fine on cattle.

Ets.  I remember watching a parelli type attempt at loading a horse into a trailer, now that was painful to watch, went on for ages and the poor horse had no idea what was wanted of it.  Oh and dobiegirl, thanks for the tip for hosing before letting horse to electrice fence, it might just keep Murph off our hay field, I currently have double electric fence, 4' high and 4' wide, and the swine still keeps appearing the wrong side of it.


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## EAST KENT (17 June 2011)

Oh bugger,that IS a shame


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## Echo Bravo (17 June 2011)

Well the Trading standards person that came to check over my books, several years ago asked if I had a cattle prod I said no good he said cause they'd been banned and I could have a hefty fine if caught using one,seeing I had only 3 cows who never went anywhere and my pigs I trained to go into trailer 3 weeks before they went for slaughter. My next door neighbour had 3 bullocks that had to go for slaughter and incineration at the BSE crisis, the haulier used one on them to get into lorry, said not to say anything as they had been banned and he could get into serious trouble and no he didn't use them on their balls.


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## Queenbee (17 June 2011)

I personally would not resort to a cattle prod, but then I do understand some of the comments saying it is no worse than a shock from an electric fence.  My main observation is that the horse never seems to be putting up much resistance, and hence the response is way too harsh for the action.  It also made me think about my mare who now loads like a peach, but she was the most resistant cow.

Prior to this I sent her away, she was great to lunge but whilst away at a professional trainers yard had an accident and came back petrified of the lunge line and would bolt if lunged when she saw the line catch in the wind.  We never touched her, or hurt her, to train her to load we made a 3 gate coral with the trailer at the other end and walked her in with a line behind her, after that we used to park by a hedge at shows and if she tried to query going in, out came the lunge on the other side of the trailer, she would only have to see the lunge and she would walk in.  

I then asked myself, with the relatively little pain that the horse would receive from a prod, it is more psychological pain from that that upsets me... was I any better??


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## Kokopelli (17 June 2011)

Honestly it wasn't nice to watch and unnecessary but a lot worse things are going on. (That doesn't make this okay though.) The RSPCA could probably spend their time better on something else but of course that wouldn't give them enough public attention to actually do something useful.


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## jhoward (17 June 2011)

bakedbean said:



			no they are not...it is frowned upon if used on genitalia..but not illegal
		
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luckily I dont own one, but now youve planted the thought,. oh how id of prodded ones x jsut for amusement.. 


talking of bad loaders ive got a chap that could do with the treatment! 

to everyone else. TBH id rather see this method then egits pulling, poking and hitting 3 low voltage shocks or a hiding and beng jabbed about... umm


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## ClobellsandBaubles (17 June 2011)

GeeGeeboy said:



			Stupid idiots! That girl didn't lead the horse to the box properly to start with, just turned and looked ai it. No wonder it didn't load. The cattle prod was totally un necessary .
		
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thats the bit i found uncomfortable but then i don't know the horses history but it seemed to me to only start 'jumping on their heads' after it got shocked. Also the attitude of the 2 girls who IMHO could't wait to get the cattle prod out without even trying to get the horse to load and then being incredibly proud of themselves and posting it on youtube in order to get some sort of applause?! they seemed rather to pleased at inflicting pain on a young horse


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## penhwnllys_stardust (17 June 2011)

Absolutely disgusting  who would want a pink horse box?


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## tallyho! (17 June 2011)

penhwnllys_stardust said:



			Absolutely disgusting  who would want a pink horse box? 

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Brilliant!!!!!


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## Pedantic (17 June 2011)

Didn't look that bad to me, and it worked, as others say, next time it will only have to see the stick to load, she didn't overuse it, only critisism is she should have had a hat on.


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## Ranyhyn (17 June 2011)

penhwnllys_stardust said:



			Absolutely disgusting  who would want a pink horse box? 

Click to expand...

me


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## Serenity087 (17 June 2011)

There's only half as many batteries in a cattle prod as your smallest electric fence generator... as an FYI!

I've used one, on sheep, who are stupid creatures at best.  Didn't really achieve much it has to be said.

I don't understand how it's okay to plug your fence into the mains and shock your horse but hideously cruel to jab it with two 6v batteries..

I mean, dude, is this a textbook case of detatchment from the causality of the pain and suffering electric fences cause or what!!!!
Turning it on means you ARE responsible for causing your horse pain!!!!
(And tbh, I'm happy to do so if it keeps everyone in the right fields!)


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## minigal (17 June 2011)

Serenity087 said:



			There's only half as many batteries in a cattle prod as your smallest electric fence generator... as an FYI!

I've used one, on sheep, who are stupid creatures at best.  Didn't really achieve much it has to be said.

I don't understand how it's okay to plug your fence into the mains and shock your horse but hideously cruel to jab it with two 6v batteries..

I mean, dude, is this a textbook case of detatchment from the causality of the pain and suffering electric fences cause or what!!!!
Turning it on means you ARE responsible for causing your horse pain!!!!
(And tbh, I'm happy to do so if it keeps everyone in the right fields!)
		
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Again, a horse can choose to stay away from a fence.


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## Kokopelli (17 June 2011)

The difference with electric fence is the horse is inflicting the shock on themselves, they know if they touched it they get shocked, whereas with a cattle prod the pain is inflicted directly by the person whether it is the horses fault or not.


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## Mike007 (17 June 2011)

minigal said:



			Again, a horse can choose to stay away from a fence.
		
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Or walk onto a lorry.


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## darkhorse123 (17 June 2011)

Serenity087 said:



			There's only half as many batteries in a cattle prod as your smallest electric fence generator... as an FYI!

I've used one, on sheep, who are stupid creatures at best.  Didn't really achieve much it has to be said.

I don't understand how it's okay to plug your fence into the mains and shock your horse but hideously cruel to jab it with two 6v batteries..

I mean, dude, is this a textbook case of detatchment from the causality of the pain and suffering electric fences cause or what!!!!
Turning it on means you ARE responsible for causing your horse pain!!!!
(And tbh, I'm happy to do so if it keeps everyone in the right fields!)
		
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and who on here with your background would take anything you had to say seriously ????


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## LizzyandToddy (17 June 2011)

Pedantic said:



			Didn't look that bad to me, and it worked, as others say, next time it will only have to see the stick to load, she didn't overuse it, only critisism is she should have had a hat on.
		
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If she was going to use the stick, she should not have used it when the horse was about to go in of its own accord, rather she should have used it when the horse had misbehaved.

All it achieved was the horse associated wanting to load with being zapped. Watch his ears they tell the story. She didn't over use it, but I don't think it was necessary in the first place when there are many other substitutes :/

But again, there are worse cases for the RSPCA to deal with.


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## Queenbee (17 June 2011)

Just out of interest, if someone did have a stubborn bar steward of a horse who wasn't scared, but just would not load or sodding move, how would you deal with it.  I tried halters, lines, food, patience, backing to the stable so he only had one way to go, the wierdest thing is when we had 4 people there and one lifted his leg onto the ramp he waltzed straight up... little focker   but how would you deal with just one person??!!


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## cremedemonthe (17 June 2011)

Not worthy of argueing over and cattle prods are not illegal as someoene has said this is off defras site:

"Electrical goads should only be used on the hind-quarters of adult cattle or adult pigs if necessary to move them forward where there is space to do so."

So they are wrong on that for starters and also cattle prods are sold on ebay to be used on cattle, horses and dogs see here 

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Unique-Cattle...287?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20ba42ef4f

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Unique-Cattle...300?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20ba1cb24c


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## minigal (17 June 2011)

Mike007 said:



			Or walk onto a lorry.
		
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I do not think the end justifies the means.  I cannot imagine needing a horse to get on a lorry so desperately that it is ok to shock it.  Keeping them in the right fields keeps them safe.

And I don't think horses possess the ability to process the thought that walking into the lorry stops the pain, kicking her in the head and running off will have stopped the pain also but would not have been a desirable result.


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## Pedantic (17 June 2011)

Yea the timing was crap and she was in the wrong place etc, but I don't think the stick was particularly harsh or rspca worthy.


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## Kokopelli (17 June 2011)

queenbee said:



			Just out of interest, if someone did have a stubborn bar steward of a horse who wasn't scared, but just would not load or sodding move, how would you deal with it.  I tried halters, lines, food, patience, backing to the stable so he only had one way to go, the wierdest thing is when we had 4 people there and one lifted his leg onto the ramp he waltzed straight up... little focker   but how would you deal with just one person??!!
		
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Honestly?

I had a horse like this and I am ashamed to say we gave up with him. This was after trying everything method under the sun (which wasn't cruel.) A 16.2 welsh x tb having a tantrum was not a pretty sight. 
We sold him onto a non-competitive home in the end.


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## teddyt (17 June 2011)

Mike007 said:



			Or walk onto a lorry.
		
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Yes, but the horse has to choose between 2 things it is scared of- a dark confined space or an electric shock. In this case, the horse would go in the lorry because it is less scared of that than the prod. It doesnt mean its ok with going in the lorry. It is choosing the lesser of two evils in an effort to keep itself safe.

In the case of an electric fence it can choose between a nice place or getting a shock- so there is a difference. It is only when for example, hunger, exceeds the fear of a shock that the horse goes through a fence. Again, the horse is driven by natural desire to keep itself safe (i.e. fed).

Its also all relative to an individual, some are more frightened of pain than others. And some are greedier than others.

So to me, a prod can not be compared to an electric fence in this circumstance. And furthermore, whatever happened to patience and training? Why bully the horse- isnt riding meant to be a partnership?


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## jhoward (17 June 2011)

queenbee said:



			Just out of interest, if someone did have a stubborn bar steward of a horse who wasn't scared, but just would not load or sodding move, how would you deal with it.  I tried halters, lines, food, patience, backing to the stable so he only had one way to go, the wierdest thing is when we had 4 people there and one lifted his leg onto the ramp he waltzed straight up... little focker   but how would you deal with just one person??!!
		
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wellll.. the chap i bought from the sales wouldnt load he got a hiding from a dealer. 
then i had to load him again to move him.. closing his exit behind him didnt work, he went so far back on his front legs resisiting his belly was near the floor. 

he isnt one to be hit! so i called on 2 big men, explpained what i wanted them to do .. they crosed arms and ran his arse up the ramp. 

I Do need to get him loading and am watching energisers on ebay as the **** all so walks through fencing...


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## blueneonrainbow (17 June 2011)

Someone explain why it's ok to use prods on cattle and not horses then?


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## jhoward (17 June 2011)

bakedbean said:



			steady, jhoward, you'll be called Scum next LOL 

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noooooooooooooo it cant happen!!!!


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## Mogg (17 June 2011)

i dont think anyone is saying it's acceptable to use a cattleprod to load a horse, and its not something i would personally try or condone. But that in the grand scheme of things there are worse cases that the RSPCA refuse/have refused to get involved in. 

What is so terribly cruel in this clip? 2 fast short zaps that no doubt hurt in the moment of application but cause no lasting  damage. No worse, imo, than what can be seen at local shows with ponies & horses being beaten after a sj round for having a fence down and you dont see the RSPCA patrolling those to catch offenders

many members on here have first hand experience of reporting severe long term cruelty in the form of mistreatment, starvation etc to which the RSPCA did nothing.  Look back to the Carrot & Spud thread 'as it happened' for example, when a non-horsey member of the public turned to HHO for help in the case of 2 starving, literally dead on their feet ponies in a field with no water. He had reported them to the RSPCA on the Sunday, and there had been no sign of anyone being near them, nor any contact from RSPCA, by the time he posted on HHO on the Wednesday.
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=300933&highlight=neglected+horses

Thanks to forum members the BHS welfare officer was down the very next day, the ponies were rescued and moved to a place of safety.  Now why couldnt the RSPCA have done that?

Would i use a cattle prod on a horse? no   Do i think these girls were silly/irresponsible to do it? yes      Do i think there are more deserving cases that the RSPCA could use their resources on? yes


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## Queenbee (17 June 2011)

Kokopelli said:



			The difference with electric fence is the horse is inflicting the shock on themselves, they know if they touched it they get shocked, whereas with a cattle prod the pain is inflicted directly by the person whether it is the horses fault or not.
		
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The question that springs to my mind is that if a horse stops at a fence and gets a crack from a whip, they don't know that they are in control of the receiving of that crack,  whilst the video does not sit at all well with me, where is the real difference between the horse refusing to go in the trailer and getting a 6v shock and the horse refusing a jump and getting a crack of the whip, and whilst we would not like to see this as a regular (or even a one of consequence) where is the difference between the horse learning that if it resists loading it gets a very short shock, and if it stops at a jump it gets a crack of the whip.

I repeat again that my heart says 'no' to what I see in the video, but my logical brain, asks the above questions.


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## xspiralx (17 June 2011)

To those saying that it's okay to use these on cows but not horses because they are different - what a foolish notion! Why is it okay to inflict shocks on cows, but not horses? Just because they aren't kept as pets doesn't mean they feel an electric shock any differently.

Generally I think some sense of perspective would be good. I wouldn't use something like this - unless perhaps as a very last resort. In this case it seems unnecessary - the horse is not protesting that much, with a little time, or just a normal 'blue pipe', the effect would be just the same.

However, two shocks with a cattle prod aren't the end of the world. They aren't doing it repeatedly, once the horse behaves, its over and done with. The horse is well looked after by the looks of things - it didn't look terrified or mentally scarred.

In short - there are many things worth getting up in arms over and this isn't one of them.


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## darkhorse123 (17 June 2011)

bakedbean said:



			if they are NOT scared, i would shut them up for 12 hours, no water, no food, no hay, nowt...take them out, put said food water hay up into a lorry/trailer...in a small paddock/yard..and let them load themselves..simples.
As soon as they are on, remove food, the horse, and repeat, they'llbe on and off in no time.
		
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you are surely a troll -or just evil ?????


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## Mike007 (17 June 2011)

minigal said:



			I cannot imagine needing a horse to get on a lorry so desperately that it is ok to shock it.  Keeping them in the right fields keeps them safe.

.
		
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Where they can safely graze with all the fluffy bunnies.


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## Sarah Sum1 (17 June 2011)

cremedemonthe said:



			Not worthy of argueing over and cattle prods are not illegal as someoene has said this is off defras site:

"Electrical goads should only be used on the hind-quarters of adult cattle or adult pigs if necessary to move them forward where there is space to do so."

So they are wrong on that for starters and also cattle prods are sold on ebay to be used on cattle, horses and dogs see here 

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Unique-Cattle...287?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20ba42ef4f

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Unique-Cattle...300?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20ba1cb24c

Click to expand...

But it is neither a cow or a pig. And who would use one on a dog!? and what for! I bet you anything that DEFRA wouldn't permit the use of a cattle prod on a dog!


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## jhoward (17 June 2011)

darkhorse123 said:



			you are surely a troll -or just evil ?????
		
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pipe down, BB has common sence, and a logic approach much more than can be said about a lot of horse owners. and i bet all of BB horses load, have manners and are nice to be around.


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## Mrs B (17 June 2011)

darkhorse123 said:



			you are surely a troll -or just evil ?????
		
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 She's neither. In fact, she's one of the people on here I would trust with my horse. Who, by the way, means the world to me.


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## cremedemonthe (17 June 2011)

Sarah sum1 said:



			But it is neither a cow or a pig. And who would use one on a dog!? and what for! I bet you anything that DEFRA wouldn't permit the use of a cattle prod on a dog!
		
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It's to stop a dog from attacking your dog, latest craze is people having dogs trained to attack others, this repels them.


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## darkhorse123 (17 June 2011)

imo if you have to resort to pain to get your horse to do what you want - your no horseman or woman - just my opinion xxx


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## The Virgin Dubble (17 June 2011)

I'm not debating whether cattle prods are cruel or not, as I don't know enough about them or their effects.

However, the fact is, there were two young girls, 'loading a horse', with camera rolling, and a cattle prod at the ready. 

In reality there was no real attempt made to load the horse at all - the loader was standing idly on the ramp facing the horse ffs.

The whole episode was set up ready for filming, and if they get their kicks out of causing a horse to panic, for entertainment purposes, then they need to be made an example of.


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## Baggybreeches (17 June 2011)

I actually couldn't care about the use of the cattle prod, just that morons like that who obviously haven't got a clue shouldn't try to load horses!


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## jen_444 (17 June 2011)

I just saw this on Horse and Hound's page on facebook and i can't believe it!! im still in shock! The horse so nearly fell overbackwards. As well the issue of horse cruelty etc I also think it was very dangerous, the horse could have shot forwards and seriously injured the people.


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## Mike007 (17 June 2011)

bakedbean said:



			LOL

have you not been on any average livery yard, my dear?

most are without food for at least 12 hours when their "doting" owners have fed them their 2 slices of hay, which is then eaten within an hour of owner leaving at 7pm..then its a long wait til said owner reappears at 7am..

QUOTE]

Now aint that the truth !My pet hate!So which is more cruel.Taking a grazing animal and restricting its feed intake for 12 hours or two zaps with a cattle prodder. Some crueltys are socialy acceptable in the horse world yet other lesser things have the bunneyhuggers out baying for blood. Fat lamanitic ponies , Horses that dont get regular exercise. Over rugging  , lack of fresh water. It goes on all the time ,but zap some git of a horse twice with a cattle prodder and you are some kind of monster.
		
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## Shilasdair (17 June 2011)

darkhorse123 said:



			let me get this clear - you are all  saying giving an electric shock ie pain and fear to your horse is ok????
		
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I use it in my fields.
If the horse doesn't walk only where I want it to, I shock it.
S


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## jhoward (17 June 2011)

darkhorse123 said:



			imo if you have to resort to pain to get your horse to do what you want - your no horseman or woman - just my opinion xxx
		
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arggg people like you make me want to bang my head on a wall, what hte hell do you think sticking a bit in a horses gob is? or even a pair of spurs? 

for godness sake get real.


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## MurphysMinder (17 June 2011)

bakedbean said:



			LOL

have you not been on any average livery yard, my dear?

most are without food for at least 12 hours when their "doting" owners have fed them their 2 slices of hay, which is then eaten within an hour of owner leaving at 7pm..then its a long wait til said owner reappears at 7am..

troll?..better than a sniping weirdo, eh?
		
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At a yard my daughter kept her horse one summer, there was a woman who gave her pony one slice of hay at 4 pm, and returned at 9 am, and then said daughter was cruel because she was keeping her horse in during the day to try and get some weight off him.


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## Serenity087 (17 June 2011)

What's my background that I'm a complete joke?

Oh, I get it, I'm smart so I can work out the power in a cattle prod compared to a leccy fence.  Gettid.


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## deicinmerlyn (17 June 2011)

I feel sickened and saddened that people think it is acceptable to use an electric prod on a horse to load it and then justify it by giving examples of it's use on other animals.   

The horse in this video is probably well on the road to being labelled a problem horse,  which will be entirely 'man made'  ruined like so many others from ignorant cruel handling.


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## The Virgin Dubble (17 June 2011)

jen_444 said:



			I also think it was very dangerous, the horse could have shot forwards and seriously injured the people.
		
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Shame it didn't...  They wouldn't have done it again in a hurry.


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## Foxhunter49 (17 June 2011)

I do not approve at all of cattle prods but I am certain that there is no law to prevent them being used on horses so there is sod all the RSPCA can do. 

Many years ago I well remember a pony refusing to load on a lorry after a show. In those days few people had their own transport so firms that transported cattle would take them to and from a show. 
This pony was being really naughty so they took three partitions from one wagon. put one either side of the ramp held by two men and a third was put behind the pony whereby another driver leant over and poked the pony with a cattle prod. Well that pony, all of 12.2 never reared it just double barrelled the back partition flattening it with the man under it and then the pony ran back further squashing him. 

It was one up to the pony and those men all agreed that a cattle prod on horses was not a good idea! Wish the horse had double barrelled the girl prodding it.


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## Serenity087 (17 June 2011)

Sarah sum1 said:



			But it is neither a cow or a pig. And who would use one on a dog!? and what for! I bet you anything that DEFRA wouldn't permit the use of a cattle prod on a dog!
		
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But they DO allow electric shock collars...

Much of a difference?  Let me see, two pins apply electric shocks at the requirement of a human pushing a button to repremand bad behaviour...


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## MurphysMinder (17 June 2011)

Serenity087 said:



			But they DO allow electric shock collars...

Much of a difference?  Let me see, two pins apply electric shocks at the requirement of a human pushing a button to repremand bad behaviour...
		
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But not in Wales


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## Serenity087 (17 June 2011)

MurphysMinder said:



			But not in Wales 

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Yeah, but thats the welsh!!! They do things no one else in the world bar New Zealanders do with sheep...


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## Sarah Sum1 (17 June 2011)

Serenity087 said:



			But they DO allow electric shock collars...

Much of a difference?  Let me see, two pins apply electric shocks at the requirement of a human pushing a button to repremand bad behaviour...
		
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Gah, all this electrical equipment is beyond me. But will be looking into the cattle prods for use on future boyfriends.  Possibly the electric shock collar also


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## MurphysMinder (17 June 2011)

LOL


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## CorvusCorax (17 June 2011)

But electric collars are probably going to get banned too.
Never used one myself but I know a couple of dogs who would be dead without them.
Better getting run over, shot, or the needle instead of a pop of current, or GOSH, the buzz setting.

Also, pressing a button to reprimand bad behaviour is not the way to use an electric collar, unless your timing is perfect. 

It's to say 'hey!' and once you have attention, you use a positive reinforcement.


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## cremedemonthe (17 June 2011)

Serenity087 said:



			Yeah, but thats the welsh!!! They do things no one else in the world bar New Zealanders do with sheep...  

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lol


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## minigal (17 June 2011)

Mike007 said:



			Where they can safely graze with all the fluffy bunnies.
		
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I have lurked on here for a few years now and always read your posts with interest and respect however that is a ridiculous judgement to make!  You know nothing of me and whilst I don't have to defend my opinion on here I can assure you there is nothing fluffy about any bunnies anywhere near me or my horses 

ETA actually if thats your definition of fluffy I'll happily be a bunny if my horses are safe in their fields and not out on the roads or something.  What a daft thing to say!!


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## horseandshoes77 (17 June 2011)

..well i can say i must be a horse whisperer..... horse out of field after 9 years...has been broken before rebacked 2 months....never seen a box or wagon.....rope halter n hand full treats.....20 mins first day on box....2 mins second day on box travelled came off no sweat etc......i gt to say i wud like to meet these girls and shove the prod where the sun dnt shine....no wonder so many horses are classed as dangerous etc....they must be so sick of humans treating them like ****....i believe u only get out what you put in....putting in this training can only bring out an aggressive unwilling animal.
what a shame the horse didnt land on her (unprotected) head it may have nocked some sense into her !


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## Dobiegirl (17 June 2011)

It just amazes me all the people who are so up in arms at this post have to resort to name calling and being very rude.

I am pretty darn sure that all the people who think the RSPCAs involvement is unnecessary dont have a cattle prod in their grooming box so why the upset?

Im all for a good debate but when people start a slanging match they know they are losing the arguement. 

Dark horse you have lost it big time on here is that why you have started another thread ,especially as its past your bed time.


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## Serenity087 (17 June 2011)

Sarah sum1 said:



			Gah, all this electrical equipment is beyond me. But will be looking into the cattle prods for use on future boyfriends.  Possibly the electric shock collar also 

Click to expand...

Mum and Dad had hours of entertainment with the dogs collar. Well, Dad did.

"Here, test this, I don't think it works"
"OOOOOOWWWWW"
"nah, it's definitely broken..."
"OOW OW OWW OWWW OWWW OOOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWW"

Pretty sure thats not legal either 

Back to dogs, we had an electric fence (would be a shame if they were banned for dogs, NO different to horses AND they buzz a warning when you get too close!!!) and a collar.  Dog soon worked out collar had a range so if anything just encouraged him to run away twice as fast... But the fence worked a treat!
Damn brittanies and their brains


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## horseandshoes77 (17 June 2011)

deicinmerlyn said:



			I feel sickened and saddened that people think it is acceptable to use an electric prod on a horse to load it and then justify it by giving examples of it's use on other animals.   

The horse in this video is probably well on the road to being labelled a problem horse,  which will be entirely 'man made'  ruined like so many others from ignorant cruel handling.
		
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here here.....totally agree


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## deicinmerlyn (17 June 2011)

minigal said:



			I have lurked on here for a few years now and always read your posts with interest and respect however that is a ridiculous judgement to make!  You know nothing of me and whilst I don't have to defend my opinion on here I can assure you there is nothing fluffy about any bunnies anywhere near me or my horses 

ETA actually if thats your definition of fluffy I'll happily be a bunny if my horses are safe in their fields and not out on the roads or something.  What a daft thing to say!!
		
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Echo this.  

It appears fashionable on here to call anyone who disagrees with cruelty or poor horsemanship 'fluffy bunnies'


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## jenki13 (17 June 2011)

horseandshoes77 said:



			..well i can say i must be a horse whisperer..... horse out of field after 9 years...has been broken before rebacked 2 months....never seen a box or wagon.....rope halter n hand full treats.....20 mins first day on box....2 mins second day on box travelled came off no sweat etc......i gt to say i wud like to meet these girls and shove the prod where the sun dnt shine....no wonder so many horses are classed as dangerous etc....they must be so sick of humans treating them like ****....i believe u only get out what you put in....putting in this training can only bring out an aggressive unwilling animal.
what a shame the horse didnt land on her (unprotected) head it may have nocked some sense into her !
		
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Some horses couldn't care less, some could & some are just little beggars! 
I had a horse once that loaded absolutely fine when we got him.. occasionally had to circle him twice.. or trot him up but that's it. Nothing ever happened to him in the trailer & he was only getting taken to PC rallies where nothing happened (except having to do work :/ ).
One day (about 3months after having him) he decided that he wasn't going to load, tried circling trotting, food, lunge rein round the bum..  & he started jumping around so put a bridle on to just try & keep him still then he started striking out with front & back hooves then reared & snapped the rein. At that point dad put it back in the field & phoned the owner saying that if they wanted their "100% safe, good loader. They could come fetch it themselves" 

Oh I don't agree with using a cattle prod.. wouldn't beat a horse into a trailer either BUT in the scheme of things there are much more needy/severe cases that the RSPCA should be dealing with. Also you can't agree with using it on cattle & not on horses IMO.


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## jodie3 (17 June 2011)

Dubs said:



			I'm not debating whether cattle prods are cruel or not, as I don't know enough about them or their effects.

However, the fact is, there were two young girls, 'loading a horse', with camera rolling, and a cattle prod at the ready. 

In reality there was no real attempt made to load the horse at all - the loader was standing idly on the ramp facing the horse ffs.

The whole episode was set up ready for filming, and if they get their kicks out of causing a horse to panic, for entertainment purposes, then they need to be made an example of.
		
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^^^^^^^^^^ This!!  The fact that at the beginning they showed the prod 'zapping' onto the fence made me very uncomfortable.


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## Serenity087 (17 June 2011)

No, fluffy bunnies are the ones with no justification behind what they say.

"Electic shocks are cruel because I don't think the horse liked it!"

Cruelty, as defined by the law, is the deprivation of food, water or veterinary care or deliberatly causing an animal harm in an extreme fashion.
No where does the law say "not liking" is grounds for something to be cruel.


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## minigal (17 June 2011)

I would put money on this not being the only situation that those girls use electric shocks as a training tool.  If the RSPCA (or any organisation) can step in and re-educate them or stop them in any other way then politics aside it is only a good thing.


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## Serenity087 (17 June 2011)

Dubs, if it is a case of "girls shock horse on camera for entertainment" then hell YEAH get a DECENT NON-RSPCA BASED charity involved!!!

I'm just discussing cattle prods... I ain't even seen the video...


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## minigal (17 June 2011)

Serenity087 said:



			No, fluffy bunnies are the ones with no justification behind what they say.

"Electic shocks are cruel because I don't think the horse liked it!"

Cruelty, as defined by the law, is the deprivation of food, water or veterinary care or deliberatly causing an animal harm in an extreme fashion.
No where does the law say "not liking" is grounds for something to be cruel.
		
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I have read the whole thread and nobody says that?  

Somebody did say they would withold water and food from a horse though - does that make them cruel?


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## suzysparkle (17 June 2011)

It's a known fact with interogation that mental torture is far worse than physical. Whilst this isn't the same, it's kind of similar.

The whole clip was less than 2 minutes and the Horse was on. I've witnessed difficult loaders be subjected to all sorts. They range from being dragged in via a lunge line through a ring at the front, whips, pressure halters, chifneys, brooms up the backside, lunge lines etc etc. In many cases it's taken over an hour, which to me must be mental 'torture' for a Horse. In many cases I've seen the Horse rear. This has normally been at shows. Rearing for a Horse is a pretty normal thing. If you have a Horse that lives out (ie as naturally as possible) you see them rear and buck loads. Mine does, but never when ridden.

Ok so an electric prod might look awful but I'll bet it's probably more humane than a lot of those methods I've mentioned. It's a quick zap, and over in an instant. That Horse looked like it was being stubborn, and despite the fact the two girls didn't exactly do it right (or maybe they did, who knows?), the stress part to the Horse was very quick. 

We spend a fortune looking after our Horses. It's not too much to ask that they load at all providing we have safe transport and drive well.  However, I would only ever use something like that if I was certain it was stubborn and not afraid. If it was fear I would take the time to overcome this.

You can't judge in full from that clip. As for the RSPCA - get real. This isn't what I would class as cruelty at all. It's no worse than using a whip, and probably hurts less. Horses are big animals, they think nothing of using teeth and heels on each other, again which hurt a lot more than a prod. I'm not trying to justify it - just look at it realistically.

For those saying electric fences are ok but have an issue with these prods - I know of 2 Horses killed (horifically) in electric fence accidents. Hardly relevant, but thought provoking. Horses can avoid them, but, accidents happen.


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## penhwnllys_stardust (17 June 2011)

bakedbean said:



			forget sheep...the Welsh treat ponies like no other race on earth...

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Not all of us


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## Serenity087 (17 June 2011)

minigal said:



			I have read the whole thread and nobody says that?  

Somebody did say they would withold water and food from a horse though - does that make them cruel?
		
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I doubt they withhold them indefinitely.

Same way that if you apply a prod indefinitely, you'd have the RSPCA knocking.

SuzySparkle - point - Before I got her Dorey climbed up the side of a tree (large oak with big roots before anyone pictures Dorey scaling trees  ) and got stuck on an electric fence for two hours.

For years she couldn't even cross tape on the floor without a human touching her.

Now there's a lasting effect of pain...


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## Roasted Chestnuts (17 June 2011)

suzysparkle said:



			It's a known fact with interogation that mental torture is far worse than physical. Whilst this isn't the same, it's kind of similar.

The whole clip was less than 2 minutes and the Horse was on. I've witnessed difficult loaders be subjected to all sorts. They range from being dragged in via a lunge line through a ring at the front, whips, pressure halters, chifneys, brooms up the backside, lunge lines etc etc. In many cases it's taken over an hour, which to me must be mental 'torture' for a Horse. In many cases I've seen the Horse rear. This has normally been at shows. Rearing for a Horse is a pretty normal thing. If you have a Horse that lives out (ie as naturally as possible) you see them rear and buck loads. Mine does, but never when ridden.

Ok so an electric prod might look awful but I'll bet it's probably more humane than a lot of those methods I've mentioned. It's a quick zap, and over in an instant. That Horse looked like it was being stubborn, and despite the fact the two girls didn't exactly do it right (or maybe they did, who knows?), the stress part to the Horse was very quick. 

We spend a fortune looking after our Horses. It's not too much to ask that they load at all providing we have safe transport and drive well.  However, I would only ever use something like that if I was certain it was stubborn and not afraid. If it was fear I would take the time to overcome this.

You can't judge in full from that clip. As for the RSPCA - get real. This isn't what I would class as cruelty at all. It's no worse than using a whip, and probably hurts less. Horses are big animals, they think nothing of using teeth and heels on each other, again which hurt a lot more than a prod. I'm not trying to justify it - just look at it realistically.

For those saying electric fences are ok but have an issue with these prods - I know of 2 Horses killed (horifically) in electric fence accidents. Hardly relevant, but thought provoking. Horses can avoid them, but, accidents happen.
		
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Wheres the blooming LIKE button when you need it????

Well said


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## amandap (17 June 2011)

Recovered to post. 


teddyt said:



			So to me, a prod can not be compared to an electric fence in this circumstance. And furthermore, whatever happened to patience and training? Why bully the horse- isnt riding meant to be a partnership?
		
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Erm yes, what happened to the 'partnership' and respect for other living creatures? What happened to actually *training* the horse to lead, load etc. What happened to listening to the horse? Oh, left to the 'bunny huggers' I expect. Thank the lord I'm one rather than a bully, because that is what this video is all about really. It's also about glorifying and enjoying being a bully, being 'dominant'. being the boss. Thosee women appear to actually revel in what they are doing, at their 'training' at hurting a horse... 
Says a lot about them imo.

There may be some merit in looking at how the prod is used to learn about timing as Dragonslayer suggests but I have a personal rule not to inflict pain or hit in my training so for me there is little point. Reading some of the replies just reinforces for me how important having that basic rule is in ensuring I have to think what and how I am training and what the horse is actually learning. Don't get me wrong, I'm far from perfect btw.

Comparing to cattle, Parelli, horses locked in stables with no hay is fine but just takes away from looking at what is going on in this video.
Must say though that I think implying that 'bunny huggers' *(whoever they are) leave horses locked up with no food is a gross exaggeration, it has gone on as long as humans have domesticated horses and is imo amongst the most underrated abuse horses have endured since man decided to use them. Whatever my feelings about this and the use of prods on other animals, it doesn't make what is shown in this video right or any more acceptable to me. Yes worse stuff that goes on... perhaps we should all just say "Oh it's ok coz they do it to cows" or "it's ok coz that man just beat his horse to within an inch of it's life"...  That sort of 'comfort' thinking isn't for me.  
Where on the 'worse' scale do we stop saying "it's OK because?" 
Anywhere? Or is it a slippery slope to _anything goes_?


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## darkhorse123 (17 June 2011)

amandap said:



			Recovered to post. 


Erm yes, what happened to the 'partnership' and respect for other living creatures? What happened to actually *training* the horse to lead, load etc. What happened to listening to the horse? Oh, left to the 'bunny huggers' I expect. Thank the lord I'm one rather than a bully, because that is what this video is all about really. It's also about glorifying and enjoying being a bully, being 'dominant'. being the boss. Thosee women appear to actually revel in what they are doing, at their 'training' at hurting a horse... 
Says a lot about them imo.

There may be some merit in looking at how the prod is used to learn about timing as Dragonslayer suggests but I have a personal rule not to inflict pain or hit in my training so for me there is little point. Reading some of the replies just reinforces for me how important having that basic rule is in ensuring I have to think what and how I am training and what the horse is actually learning. Don't get me wrong, I'm far from perfect btw.

Comparing to cattle, Parelli, horses locked in stables with no hay is fine but just takes away from looking at what is going on in this video.
Must say though that I think implying that 'bunny huggers' *(whoever they are) leave horses locked up with no food is a gross exaggeration, it has gone on as long as humans have domesticated horses and is imo amongst the most underrated abuse horses have endured since man decided to use them. Whatever my feelings about this and the use of prods on other animals, it doesn't make what is shown in this video right or any more acceptable to me. Yes worse stuff that goes on... perhaps we should all just say "Oh it's ok coz they do it to cows" or "it's ok coz that man just beat his horse to within an inch of it's life"...  That sort of 'comfort' thinking isn't for me.  
Where on the 'worse' scale do we stop saying "it's OK because?" 
Anywhere? Or is it a slippery slope to _anything goes_?
		
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just this  - if you have a horse be lucky you can and love him / her xxx


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## suzysparkle (17 June 2011)

Serenity087 said:



			SuzySparkle - point - Before I got her Dorey climbed up the side of a tree (large oak with big roots before anyone pictures Dorey scaling trees  ) and got stuck on an electric fence for two hours.

For years she couldn't even cross tape on the floor without a human touching her.

Now there's a lasting effect of pain...
		
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Big difference between a second and 2hrs. Your Horse was very very lucky. The two I mention were braindead a lot quicker than that. One I used to own and happened after I sold her on (to an excellent home). The other, well, I shan't go into details, was a friend of mine's Horse.


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## Amymay (17 June 2011)

Completely agree with what Dubs has said. And for that reason alone someone needs to take these stupid women to one side and have a word.

The other thing they should consider in future is the type of vehicle they transport thier horse in.

That box is too small for the horse, and notoriously bad for delivering a stable journey.

As for the rspca - well this is right up thier street.  Soft target, nothing to get thier hands dirty over and the media all done for them.


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## dumpling (17 June 2011)

How do you think she gets it back in at shows? Do you think she takes the prod with her for everyone to see?


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## minigal (17 June 2011)

Re: loading - I have to admit to observing with interest the troubles people have loading when at shows or other "dos"  I particularly like seeing people giving their horses a "run up" - all mine can manage to walk up the ramp without needing momentum to get up there!  However that is off topic, except I can fully appreciate it is intensely frustrating to have a pony that is a bad loader - that and being bad to catch is on my list of no-nos.

I agree that watching ponies being hit, poked with brooms and otherwise bullied onto lorries is horrible but I don't think that just because these things happen, it justifies the using a cattle prod on a horse.  I repeat, perhaps if the use of one makes a situation safer then it might be ok, but as a training aid to load a horse?  No thanks I'd rather not travel my horses than subject them to that.


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## amandap (17 June 2011)

suzysparkle said:



			We spend a fortune looking after our Horses. It's not too much to ask that they load at all providing we have safe transport and drive well.
		
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Arghhhhhhhhhh not that one. This is my pet hate! The thinking that because we spend fortunes of money on horses that they somehow 'owe' us!
If we want them to travel we have to teach them how to load and convince them that we can drive carefully, that the trailer or lorry is safe or alter it so it is safe to that horse. We shouldn't expect anything imo. So yes it's too much to ask unless we do our bit in training and preparation etc. If we haven't done it why should we have the right to force a horse onto a trailer, especially using pain? I bet he *must* get to that show or move house now and really doesn't want to loose money when the trailer is rented etc. 

My horses don't even know money exists let alone our obsession with it being so important... they have no idea that humans think and often insist they should get their monies worth. 

Runs and hides from the onslaught of people that believe horse do owe us for what we spend on them...


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## Spins (18 June 2011)

minigal said:



			Re: loading - I have to admit to observing with interest the troubles people have loading when at shows or other "dos"  I particularly like seeing people giving their horses a "run up" - all mine can manage to walk up the ramp without needing momentum to get up there.
		
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hehe I thought EXACTLY the same until we got a bad loader only when leaving the yard never on the way home.. if you can get him walking forwards even trotting (a struggle..) he'll go on first time no problems.. if you amble up to the box it ends in rears and generally p***es about but goes on in the end...

However I would never justify using a cattle prod on a horse, and if someone tried to load some of the horses I've worked it the way she tried to load that horse there she'd have teeth missing and serious rope burns on those hands! I feel SO sorry for the horse he must have been terrified standin in that box!  Well what goes around comes around and if he ever backs into/glances off an electric fence with one of those delightful girlies onboard they're gonners!


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## Sportznight (18 June 2011)

Good GOD but there's a load of muppets in the horse world!!  Well on HHO anyway!  SUCH extremes of opinion, with so few with middle of the road common sense!  I genuinely feel sorry for the horses in the care of so many people, including _some_ of the 'rescue' societies!!


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## minigal (18 June 2011)

Spins said:



			hehe I thought EXACTLY the same until we got a bad loader only when leaving the yard never on the way home.. if you can get him walking forwards even trotting (a struggle..) he'll go on first time no problems.. if you amble up to the box it ends in rears and generally p***es about but goes on in the end...

However I would never justify using a cattle prod on a horse, and if someone tried to load some of the horses I've worked it the way she tried to load that horse there she'd have teeth missing and serious rope burns on those hands! I feel SO sorry for the horse he must have been terrified standin in that box!  Well what goes around comes around and if he ever backs into/glances off an electric fence with one of those delightful girlies onboard they're gonners!
		
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Oooh I am not knocking it if it works!  However I have found it amusing to watch a pony (and it's normally a tiny little thing with a very smug expression) being run towards the ramp and it grinding to a halt yet again.  It will, of course load in time but only when it feels the time is right and it has driven its poor handler (normally a flustered mother) to tears of frustration.


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## Apercrumbie (18 June 2011)

Although I don't personally agree with their method, I can think of far worse ways of getting a horse to load.
What disgusts me is their implementation of the method.  For those who haven't bothered to watch the video, the horse is being stubborn, not loading.  Just as it's taking a few steps forward the stupid blonde with no hat steps forward and cattle prods it.  Funnily enough the horse goes absolutely nuts, rears up, nearly lands on the stupid blonde (shame it didn't) and funnily enough is even more stubborn afterwards.  The second time it's prodded, same reaction.  Her timing was appalling and really upset the horse when there is no need.  I bet the horse is still a tricky loader.


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## Serenity087 (18 June 2011)

suzysparkle said:



			Big difference between a second and 2hrs. Your Horse was very very lucky. The two I mention were braindead a lot quicker than that. One I used to own and happened after I sold her on (to an excellent home). The other, well, I shan't go into details, was a friend of mine's Horse.
		
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Gosh, maybe 2 hours was an exaggeration on their part then!! I also don't know what powered the fence!

Either way I've never met a horse who couldn't even jump tape on the floor in case it got her 

Makes you think though, we all use tape so freely (and some fences look appaulling, slack tape, broken posts etc!) and yet we don't think of the consequences!


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## suzysparkle (18 June 2011)

amandap said:



			Arghhhhhhhhhh not that one. This is my pet hate! The thinking that because we spend fortunes of money on horses that they somehow 'owe' us!
If we want them to travel we have to teach them how to load and convince them that we can drive carefully, that the trailer or lorry is safe or alter it so it is safe to that horse. We shouldn't expect anything imo. So yes it's too much to ask unless we do our bit in training and preparation etc. If we haven't done it why should we have the right to force a horse onto a trailer, especially using pain? I bet he *must* get to that show or move house now and really doesn't want to loose money when the trailer is rented etc. 

My horses don't even know money exists let alone our obsession with it being so important... they have no idea that humans think and often insist they should get their monies worth. 

Runs and hides from the onslaught of people that believe horse do owe us for what we spend on them...
		
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If you read what you quoted, I actually did say that we need to provide safe transport and drive well. I also said that I would never use such a method if the Horse was afraid. I would spend the time. You do get Horses who are stubborn and you do see the methods I mantioned used. That is what I was getting at. What is abuse and what isn't. 

FWIW I used to own one who was terrified of loading, even walking through a doorway. I spent a very long time getting him over this, with success, and the only method I used was a lot patience. 

My point was that if you know your Horse well enough to know he or she is taking the **** then people do resort to the methods I mentioned. Oh - and no I don't think my Horse owes me anything. That said, if he's naughty (very very rare) he gets a slap with a whip, which is probably no worse than a cattle prod.  However, if you didn't have money you wouldn't have Horses, food, a house, a computer, the internet etc etc so don't even go there. Very few people can afford field ornaments after all.


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## suzysparkle (18 June 2011)

Serenity087 said:



			Gosh, maybe 2 hours was an exaggeration on their part then!! I also don't know what powered the fence!

Either way I've never met a horse who couldn't even jump tape on the floor in case it got her 

Makes you think though, we all use tape so freely (and some fences look appaulling, slack tape, broken posts etc!) and yet we don't think of the consequences!
		
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I don't know what powered the fences either. 

Mine hates being zapped by a fence. Will trot round in disgust for minutes. However, if I lay the tape on the ground he calmly steps over. I guess it depends on the Horse 

But yes, it is a good point. You see a lot of badly maintained electric fencing that just looks flimsy and asking for an accident.


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## The Virgin Dubble (18 June 2011)

kirsty17 said:



			How do you think she gets it back in at shows? Do you think she takes the prod with her for everyone to see?
		
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Well precisely!

The fact that the cattle prod was shown beforehand, being 'tested' on wire, and the fact one of the morons didn't even try to load the horse, while the other moron waited to pounce with the prod at the ready, shows it was done purely for their own twisted idea of entertainment.
Not to mention the camera man/woman zooming in on the prod, and filming the episode.
Just a bunch of ***** making complete arses of themselves....


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## suzysparkle (18 June 2011)

Amandap - to save you looking for the comparison :



suzysparkle said:



			Amandap (copied and pasted)
If we want them to travel we have to teach them how to load and convince them that we can drive carefully, that the trailer or lorry is safe or alter it so it is safe to that horse. We shouldn't expect anything imo. So yes it's too much to ask unless we do our bit in training and preparation etc.

So what exactly are you getting at then??
I have basically said the same as you?
		
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## snaptie (18 June 2011)

For those who would dismiss me I'm not bleating that a half tonne of horse does not need controlling or that a slap/crack is needed if things go awry. 

What I find strange a so-called horse forum mainly supports such idiotic actions. You clearly see the handler either deliberately or frankly stupidly doing little or nothing to encourage the horse to load up. And in fact standing in his way. Then we get sparky yellow jumping in all too willing to shock the horse for not obeying immediately whatever they expect him to understand. 

Only for the clearly confused and frightened horse I would find this laughable. For both the cold people with their pre-judged action of shits and giggles filmed for youtube or the gullible who reason that that this is right. 

My point is what kind of weirdos will film themselves sparking an electric prod off a barbed fence before shooting footage of a horse getting the same and laughing about it too, regardless of the horses manners (and frankly he didn't appear more than slightly hesitant eitherway)? 

Why is that acceptable?


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## Gingersmum (18 June 2011)

ezililaur said:



			Taken from their YouTube chanel as a reply to comments I assume:

"*This horse is 3yrs old and has been travelled regularly since a foal and always loaded first time, now she is bigger she has decided she would rather rear and jump on our heads*, so surely this is a better option than having it rearing and causing an accident to itself or us. I take it that by searching for this video you are having trouble loading a horse, good luck with mamby pambying it and waisting hours of your time being taken for a mug by a horse. Kind regards mr turbin. "   

"rearing and causing an accident" Did that prod prevent that then? not from where I was sitting.

I thought they were vile, this response says it all.
		
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*If this is the case I would look at their driving skills.*
They need to make sure they are giving it a quiet, calm ride, cornering carefully and not scaring/stressing the horse. Also the box/lorry needs to be free from scary rattles etc while travelling.
I believe once you get a horse in the lorry if it always has a comfortable journey it will load ok in the future.


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## horsegirl (18 June 2011)

It once took 3 hours to get my horse in to a trailer. He was soaked in sweat and kept rearing and running away, he was striking out with his front hooves and we had tried everything we could think of. I'm not saying I would use the cattle prod method but I would have been very tempted


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## talkinghorse (18 June 2011)

A reminder of the legal responsibility of horse ownership.
The Animal Welfare Act 2006 (the Act) requires you to ensure that any horse, pony, donkey or mule for which you are responsible, whether on a permanent or a temporary basis: has a suitable environment to live in; has a healthy diet; is able to behave normally;   has appropriate company; and is protected from pain, suffering, injury and disease.

You are therefore not allowed, by law, to inflict pain on an animal deliberately.

This is not law because it is a whim, but because a lot of consultation and consideration has gone into considering the points for and against certain courses of action.

When you inflict pain on a horse you take away its trust, when you take away a horse's trust, you create untold future problems until you regain its trust again. Problem horses are dangerous, they can kill easier than a human without needing to pick up a weapon.

These two girls and their photographer are uneducated and inexperienced and think because the amount of electricity in an electric fence = that in an electric prod makes their behaviour okay.

The fact that the horse used to load and now doesn't shows that something has gone badly wrong, not with the horse, but with the handlers understanding of horses. 

When I told my three year old son to get up in the morning he did so straight away, when I told him at thirteen he didn't. A cattle prod was inappropriate, I had to be more intelligent in my behaviour to get the result I wanted. If you can't find the solution to a problem, never choose violence as the answer.


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## YasandCrystal (18 June 2011)

bakedbean said:



			Why are the RSPCA interested?
Whats the problem?
they are using a LEGAL cattle prod to load a horse...SO?

i've had one stuck on my arse..its just like a leccy fence jab..
horse wasnt that bothered was he?
		
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Baked Bean if you believe that using a cattle prod on a horse is an acceptable thing to do then I am gobsmacked and even more gobsmacked you would be so stupid and heartless to admit it on a equine forum!!!! 
People use this forum to access and gain from the vast years and acres of expertise the members have and the valuable advice they freely give. I believe that MOST forum members love and want the best for their horses. Using a cattle prod on a horse is animal cruelty. Horses are extremely sensitive giving creatures - you obviously hadn't realised!!!


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## Kaylum (18 June 2011)

We have cattle and would never use a cattle prod on them.   We have horses would never force them into an eletric fence to get a shock.  Its a totally different thing to force a horse afterall it has no choice.  Your applying the pain.  

Cant they be bothered to show the horse its not scarey being loaded.  Its called time and patience and this must have happend before for them to have a cattle prod.  

Havent been able to watch the vid as its not there.


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## Amymay (18 June 2011)

Baked bean hasn't said its ok to use a cattle prof, merely questioned the outcry over its use.

And for the poster who quotes the animal act (which is flimsy at best), I'm guessing you don't ride with a stick then.

Don't get me wrong, these woman's techniques are questionable. But let's keep a sense of proportion.


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## Kaylum (18 June 2011)

Funny that the rspca havent bothered to come out to a field full of starving horses that was reported to them on sunday but can be bothered spending time trying to trace someone on youtube.


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## tania01 (18 June 2011)

darkhorse123 said:



			you are surely a troll -or just evil ?????
		
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Darkhorse are you for real ???

How is bakedbean evil in doing that????

The chestnut in my pics is a nightmare to catch sometimes,I had tried every trick there is to catch him,couldn't get near him,I got in contact with a very well known horseman in how to catch him.He advised the same thing as bakedbean said,take everything away from him including water.

It worked and caught him the next day.


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## Amymay (18 June 2011)

@Kaylum. Hear, hear!!!


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## Syrah (18 June 2011)

Dubs said:



			Well precisely!

The fact that the cattle prod was shown beforehand, being 'tested' on wire, and the fact one of the morons didn't even try to load the horse, while the other moron waited to pounce with the prod at the ready, shows it was done purely for their own twisted idea of entertainment.
Not to mention the camera man/woman zooming in on the prod, and filming the episode.
Just a bunch of ***** making complete arses of themselves....
		
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^^^^ This!

That little episode was filmed for fun.  That's got to be one of the most pathetic attempts at loading regardless of what happened beforehand (prior to the cattle prod being used). 

Their main aim that day was to film zapping the horse.


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## Dry Rot (18 June 2011)

It is surely a great thing to have this forum where there can be (mostly!) reasonable discussion about such an emotive subject. I am sure a lot of people reading this thread will be learning from it. 

It is pretty disgusting how some approach loading horses. One owned by a girl here (since departed!) was beaten onto the lorry by the haulier so violently I had to leave the scene -- and I am not a bunny hugger by any means. That horse died 48 hours later, presumably from stress. 

Another, in to meet the stallion, could not be caught and was only managable by shedding her off like cattle. When the owner (a professional livestock haulier) arrived with transport, the poor brute shot into the trailer like a bullet, obviously viewing the transport as a final sanctuary! I've never seen anything load as fast in my life! The owner remarked, "I believe in treating animals like animals". Clearly!

So, I agree with a lot of the posts on this thread -- both for and against. The trouble with using electricity is that the results are all too often unpredictable. An electric fence is fixed and the animal has a choice whether to touch it or not. Electric prods, electric collars, etc. are different, which is why Wales has banned the e-collar and Scotland will soon follow. I am sure a universal ban (which already applies in government establishments such as the police, prison service, MOD, etc) will follow in due course. These measures are unnecessary and should be replaced by good training. I believe there are restrictions on the use of cattle prods which could lead those two into court. The definition of cruelty is the infliction of unnecessary suffering -- and electric cattle prods, e-collars, etc. are unnecessary, except to the ignorant and stupid who won't learn and don't know any better.


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## Dobiegirl (18 June 2011)

Cant believe this thread is still going on and on about the same subject.

I did post a question on Pasties thread which was where and when had anyone said they used a cattle prod.

I didnt get a reply, theres a surprise. There are some people on here who are pretty contensious and  the fact that they started 2 other threads prove it.


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## amandap (18 June 2011)

suzysparkle said:



			Amandap - to save you looking for the comparison :



Amandap (copied and pasted)
If we want them to travel we have to teach them how to load and convince them that we can drive carefully, that the trailer or lorry is safe or alter it so it is safe to that horse. We shouldn't expect anything imo. So yes it's too much to ask unless we do our bit in training and preparation etc.

So what exactly are you getting at then??
I have basically said the same as you?
		
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First, I did take your statement out of context and I apologise for that. I did actually say more or less the same, you are right but I didn't make clear that even if you have done the training etc. I still believe that having an attitude that horses do owe us somehow leaves the door open for us to stop looking at why we might be having problems in training or why a horse still behaves unpredictably or why suddenly a horse wont do something it has done willingly many times. It also leaves the door open for us to say tat the horse is being stubborn or doing it on purpose and perhaps allows us to excuse getting rough and hitting etc?
I hope this clears the point I am making better than my other attempt.

I've been thinking about the effect of using pain in training or getting a horse to cooperate. Some believe horses store memories as pictures and I do think this is a possibility. So if the horse in the video is doing this what might he be associating the pain with? What is in his memory picture that means pain?.. Human's? those particular girls? that van? all vans? ramps? colour of the van? markings on the van? certain noises that may be going on around? Lead ropes? Humans walking behind him?! How on earth do we know what the horse is storing up in it's memory banks? This might partly explain why some horses problems are especially difficult to get to the bottom of or why horses seem to do things for no apparent reason?
Pain seems to burn memories more deeply too...


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## Amaranta (18 June 2011)

darkhorse123 said:



			let me get this clear - you are all  saying giving an electric shock ie pain and fear to your horse is ok????
		
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Are you being deliberately obtuse?  Or is it that you cannot actually read and assimilate the words?

NO ONE has said it's ok to use a cattle prod to load a horse, what HAS been said is that  a)  No it is not actually illegal (at the moment) and b) why is it different to prodding cattle.

I find it absolutely hypocritical that people on here say that 'cattle are different', one saying that they were different to horses as they were not trained (trained not to feel pain?) and as for the poster who claimed that cows had hides whereas horses have skin, the crass stupidity of that comment just shows up her basic lack of knowledge.

As for the morons with the cattle prod, I agree with Dubs - the whole thing was a set up for the camera, the stupid inane giggling in the background is proof of this.  Moron number 1 actually seems to set the horse up to fail in order to allow moron number 2 to use the cattle prod with bad timing, in fact there was a moment (between prods) that they had the opportunity to allow the horse to load, but no moron number 2 just had to use that prod.  It is a wonder no one was hurt, not least of all the poor unfortunate horse.


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## tallyho! (18 June 2011)

Hello everyone!!! Still having fun???

Oh yes looks like it... 20 pages.. nice one amandap...


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## fburton (18 June 2011)

Mike007 said:



			Personaly ,I thought they handled it very well. Jabbed twice (jolt like an electric fence) Loaded like a lamb. The timing and understanding of the horses mental stance were spot on.
		
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The timing with the prod was poor (as was the jerking of the lead) but they got lucky. I would not be at all surprised if they have continuing troubles loading this horse - worsening if their timing doesn't improve.


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## amandap (18 June 2011)

tallyho! said:



			Hello everyone!!! Still having fun???

Oh yes looks like it... 20 pages.. nice one amandap...
		
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Lol! I must say I've learned loads about what not to post on H&H Forum. Having said that there are many calm and reasonable and sensible posters on this thread as well as those just getting defensive and using personal insult. 

I wonder if anyone has identified the women/girls?


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## Amaranta (18 June 2011)

bakedbean said:



			i didnt quite call them morons
i would repost what i actually thought of those young ladies...but as someone button-pushed the first time, and it was deleted last night, i wont repeat, for fear of the wrath of TFC.
		
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Lol no you didn't BB, that was me 

_sits and waits for the button pushers_


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## Kadastorm (18 June 2011)

I can say, i would have thought about using one once. We had been trailered to a place for a hack, gone for a lovely ride and then when it came to loading again, my friends horse point blankly refused. It wasnt scared it just refused. 
Lots of pulling, pushing, enticing with food, covering her head and spinning her, whips, lunge lines, tears, lots of swearing and an hour later we called the vet to sedate her. Another hour later and even more attempts she finally gives in. But if we had a prod we probably would have used it...

There are so many others in such a state around the country that im not going to spread the word about this. 
And i find it ridiculous that so called adults shoot insults at each other and cant have a civilised debate.


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## fburton (18 June 2011)

joeanne said:



			Nothing "big" in it, you dont know me from Adam, and those that do will tell you I am no advocate of cruelty, but there is nothing in that video (other than the complete misjudging of when to "zap" and lack of a hat) that strikes me as "cruel".
		
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Is it even possible to be objective about cruelty and abuse? Both seem, like beauty, to be in the eye of the beholder. (Anti-beauty or ugliness might be appropriate words for it!) Lots of people who watched the bumping reiner video couldn't see any cruelty or abuse; ditto Linda Parelli's handling of Barney, or Pat's handing of Catwalk.

How do we define what is "cruel"? Deliberately inflicting unnecessary suffering is one way to define it. How would this example be rated on that criterion? Clearly, the act of delivering an electric shock was deliberate, and it must have hurt, or at least been very unpleasant, so there was some suffering albeit short lived - although the fear created by the pain/unpleasantness could last a lot longer. So then, was it necessary? To prove necessity, you'd have to show that none of the alternatives worked or would have worked. I don't think that's possible here - though personally I would not be surprised if someone who believes that use of electric shocks is a valid training method failed even to try methods at the other end of the spectrum.


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## tallyho! (18 June 2011)

amandap said:



			Lol! I must say I've learned loads about what not to post on H&H Forum. Having said that there are many calm and reasonable and sensible posters on this thread as well as those just getting defensive and using personal insult. 

I wonder if anyone has identified the women/girls? 

Click to expand...

It's been entertaining at least  some right classics!


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## fburton (18 June 2011)

Serenity087 said:



			There's only half as many batteries in a cattle prod as your smallest electric fence generator... as an FYI!
		
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FYI, one cannot extrapolate from the voltage of the supply to the voltage, current or energy in the shocks delivered by a device.


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## Fairynuff (18 June 2011)

amandap said:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oC-g_nfOiw&feature=player_embedded

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much ado about nothing......................................again!


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## Fairynuff (18 June 2011)

darkhorse123 said:



			and who on here with your background would take anything you had to say seriously ????
		
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cool it Darkhorse. Dont see what S has done to merit your acidity AND I think we can decide for ourselves who to take seriously or otherwise. Thats you off my xmas card list


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## fburton (18 June 2011)

Serenity087 said:



			Cruelty, as defined by the law, is the deprivation of food, water or veterinary care or deliberatly causing an animal harm in an extreme fashion.
		
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Do you have a citation for that? Not saying you're wrong, but it would be useful to see that in black and white.


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## Amaranta (18 June 2011)

fburton said:



			Do you have a citation for that? Not saying you're wrong, but it would be useful to see that in black and white.
		
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I believe that is quoted by WHW, but would say that that is what I understood it to be by law too


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## fburton (18 June 2011)

Serenity087 said:



			Same way that if you apply a prod indefinitely, you'd have the RSPCA knocking.
		
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What if the prod was targetted deliberately at the horse's genitals (if it was a mare)? Would that be cruel if it wasn't before? Does intent have anything to do with it or just the end result of an action? However... a sick sadist could claim they were merely using the prod to load the horse! Could you prove they were lying? As far as the horse was concerned the pain wouldn't be much different if the prod was applied a few inches to left or right - so arguably it doesn't actually matter where the prod is applied as long as it gets the horse to move forwards. Who are you (we) to say it's cruel or not?


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## fburton (18 June 2011)

Amaranta said:



			I find it absolutely hypocritical that people on here say that 'cattle are different', one saying that they were different to horses as they were not trained (trained not to feel pain?) and as for the poster who claimed that cows had hides whereas horses have skin, the crass stupidity of that comment just shows up her basic lack of knowledge.
		
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I agree with you that anyone who claims horses and cattle don't feel comparable pain from electric shocks because their skins are different is on a sticky wicket. However, they _are_ potentially different in the way they react to a prod behind. I cannot imagine a cow double-barrelling at the prodder or rearing up and falling over backwards, both _possible_ reactions of a horse. Furthermore, the consequences of getting shocked in this way are likely to differ vastly in relation to how we train the two species. With cattle, a prod is just to make them move (usually forwards); with horses, one is presumably involved in teaching them something a bit more sophisticated - like loading into a horsebox when required - and any other consequences of inflicting momentary pain have to be reckoned with, such as creating fear or bad associations or confusion as to what is being asked.


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## EAST KENT (18 June 2011)

darkhorse123 said:



			and who on here with your background would take anything you had to say seriously ????
		
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Pardon..what are you on about??


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## Holly Hocks (18 June 2011)

Just tried to watch the video, but it has been removed by the people who put it on there.....I wonder why?  If they're so proud of it, why have they felt the need to remove it?


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## Amaranta (18 June 2011)

fburton said:



			I agree with you that anyone who claim horses and cattle don't feel comparable pain from electric shocks because their skins are different is on a sticky wicket. However, they _are_ potentially different in the way they react to a prod behind. I cannot imagine a cow double-barrelling at the prodder or rearing up and falling over backwards, both _possible_ reactions of a horse. Furthermore, the consequences of getting shocked in this way are likely to differ vastly in relation to how we train the two species. With cattle, a prod is just to make them move (usually forwards); with horses, one is presumably involved in teaching them something a bit more sophisticated - like loading into a horsebox when required - and any other consequences of inflicting momentary pain have to be reckoned with, such as creating fear or bad associations or confusion as to what is being asked.
		
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Agreed, but my point was that a cow is just as likely to feel the pain as a horse is, the posters concerned seemed to think it was OK for cows as they were not 'pets', in my opinion ALL animals deserve to be treated fairly, not just those we choose to pat but also those who we choose to eat.


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## fburton (18 June 2011)

bakedbean said:



			It would certainly be defined as illegal use as would use on a stallions scrotum/sheath/geldings sheath, same for cattle.

It is to be used only on the fleshy rump area 

So to do so, prosecutable under current welfare laws
		
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But no more or less cruel, it could be argued, as they both cause pain. The law is as it is to protect public sensibilities, I suspect.

It is curious that the law allows only application on the rump, given that electric fences can touch various other parts of the body - including testicles as I recall in one funny (or "funny", depending on your point of view) YouTube video of a boar that backs into an electric fence while _in flagrante delicto_, so to speak. I wonder how the law-makers would justify that inconsistency!


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## Queenbee (18 June 2011)

Kokopelli said:



			Honestly?

I had a horse like this and I am ashamed to say we gave up with him. This was after trying everything method under the sun (which wasn't cruel.) A 16.2 welsh x tb having a tantrum was not a pretty sight. 
We sold him onto a non-competitive home in the end.
		
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This is my youngster and only his 4th time near a box/trailer, the first couple of times he was so small, he was bullied in by his old owners.  But now he is 15.2 and just being a typical tit!  I think he will get there in the end, and without a cattle prod too!


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## amandap (18 June 2011)

I also do not like the use of the electric prods on cattle or any other animal. Like fburton I don't think the reasoning or aims for use on horses and cattle can be compared despite the probability both feel the pain in a very similar way.
As fburton says the context is poles apart here and I believe it isn't used on cattle for 'training' purposes just to prod forward movement and often in a group situation where cattle have to be moved en masse. I do think design of markets etc. might help here but I'm no cattle expert of Farmer.


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## fburton (18 June 2011)

Amaranta said:



			Agreed, but my point was that a cow is just as likely to feel the pain as a horse is, the posters concerned seemed to think it was OK for cows as they were not 'pets', in my opinion ALL animals deserve to be treated fairly, not just those we choose to pat but also those who we choose to eat.
		
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I which case I completely agree with you!


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## Amaranta (18 June 2011)

fburton said:



			I which case I completely agree with you!
		
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## YasandCrystal (18 June 2011)

Amaranta said:



			Agreed, but my point was that a cow is just as likely to feel the pain as a horse is, the posters concerned seemed to think it was OK for cows as they were not 'pets', in my opinion ALL animals deserve to be treated fairly, not just those we choose to pat but also those who we choose to eat.
		
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True to an extent but let's be realistic - noone will pay Monty or Maxwell to load their cattle kindly and willingly onto the meat lorry now will they??? It's a oneway journey


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## fburton (18 June 2011)

bakedbean said:



			It is LEGAL to use correctly on both Equine and Bovine..doesnt make it right..neither does it need to involve the RSPCA because it was used on a horse. THAT was my point...and it obviously by-passed many, who then started name calling and deliberately being obtuse.
		
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My worry is that all the talk and threats of RSPCA investigation will make it _less_ rather than more likely that the two in the video will come to understand the error of their ways.


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## Amaranta (18 June 2011)

YasandCrystal said:



			True to an extent but let's be realistic - noone will pay Monty or Maxwell to load their cattle kindly and willingly onto the meat lorry now will they??? It's a oneway journey 

Click to expand...

Maybe so but still does not make it any less cruel, THAT is my point and is, I believe, the point that BB was trying to make.


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## EAST KENT (18 June 2011)

Would still be interested in an update on the horse`s loading ease now.


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## amandap (18 June 2011)

bakedbean said:



			You are again, slightly, moving the goalposts.

Last night it was the "cruel use of the prod" for loading..which i have seen,on both horses and cattle, to now using as "training purposes", which i havent seen..

I still see no difference whatsoever between "sticking" a cow, which several thought was OK?..and "sticking" a horse?

Why the doulble standards?
Either you can hit a horse/cow and its cruel or not.
Why is there any difference?
I did ask this yesterday..but didnt get too much of a response TBH.
It is LEGAL to use correctly on both Equine and Bovine, even Porcine..doesnt make it right..neither does it need to involve the RSPCA because it was used on a horse. THAT was my point...and it obviously by-passed many, who then started name calling and deliberately being obtuse.

ETS...IME, the best way to load Cattle, move them forwards, is to use a bloody good Drover (dog)
		
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OK, I think it's cruel to use an electric prod full stop. I haven't moved my goal posts, I was explaining the difference in using it on cows as opposed to horses. It's use on horses is surely to 'train' it to go, in this example, into a van. Just using it to move a horse forward is not enough in this instance and the fact that those girls did so many other things to block the horse and used the prod at incorrect times for the horse to associate it with stepping forward anyway (imo) makes it even more of an unreasonable use leading to one totally confused horse with a big memory of pain.

Also, when is it usually used on cattle? Are they in a shute or some sort of narrow passage or crammed between other cattle? I can't see any point in using it in a field where the cow could run off in any direction, surely the cow is already restrained to some extent so it has very few choices about where to go to get away from the zap?

The difference for me is that cattle are managed NOT trained. In training we are surely supposed to be thinking things through and building a relationship with the horse? Many Farmers have some sort of relationship with cattle and manage fine without using prods. So that leads me to ask why are they ever needed even for managing cattle?


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## martlin (18 June 2011)

I'm not sure using a cattle prod is cruel as such, but it is at best unpredictable in its outcome, even on cattle - the assumption is that the bovine prodded will move forwards, they quite often strike out and then move upwards/sideways or even turn to face the prodder. I personally would rather use a stick, one has more control over it's application and the outcome is more predictable, and even when they do turn on one, there is the tool (stick) to fend them off.
I would certainly not use an electric prod on any livestock, I might even be a tinsy bit fluffy, I fear. 
Also, don't remember who said it about not wanting to load cattle calmly on meat lorries... I hope I am more than an exception to the rule, as all my livestock, regardless where and for what purpose they are travelling, are loaded calmly and gently. I might be a mug, who knows, but ALL my animals will follow me with a bucket, pretty much anywhere.


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## amandap (18 June 2011)

Actually Martlin since helping (or hindering in my case) a few Farmers here move cattle from field to field along the road I have learned that cattle are very much more sensitive to pressure of 'driving' than domestic horses. I got too close and too assertive at first and sent them over a fence rather than past a car on the road.  I thought I was being very low key but not for the cattle. I have much improved now and Farmers no longer look to the skies when they see me approaching to offer assistance.


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## BecsraeJD (18 June 2011)

I've not read the entirety of the post but I think some of your opinions are completely disgusting. 

This is most certainly NOT an acceptable way of loading a horse. I have just recently conquered my horse's loading problem. He was by far the worst loader I've ever met and potentially very dangerous. I would NEVER resort to this method, in what world will this ever gain the respect required to have a 'succesful' relationship with a horse. The mentality of horse and cow is wavelengths apart, although I'm not keen on the idea of shocking any animal, to get a horse to load in order to compete it or what not certainly does not justify such a method.

Lazy, cruel owners will resort to this, most likely because their knowledge of horses and handling skills are completely s***

Sorry, this topic really angered me.


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## DragonSlayer (18 June 2011)

BecsraeJD said:



			I've not read the entirety of the post but I think some of your opinions are completely disgusting. 

This is most certainly NOT an acceptable way of loading a horse. I have just recently conquered my horse's loading problem. He was by far the worst loader I've ever met and potentially very dangerous. I would NEVER resort to this method, in what world will this ever gain the respect required to have a 'succesful' relationship with a horse. The mentality of horse and cow is wavelengths apart, although I'm not keen on the idea of shocking any animal, to get a horse to load in order to compete it or what not certainly does not justify such a method.

Lazy, cruel owners will resort to this, most likely because their knowledge of horses and handling skills are completely s***

Sorry, this topic really angered me.
		
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Before you can rant and rave and make a judgemental post such as this one, please DO read the whole thread.

MANY excellent points have been made both for and against, and it seems to me, you have just picked out the ones you want, in which to launch your angered post.

Sure, you have an opinion as much as anyone, but don't blast in with it saying ' ...have not read all....' because your arguement then loses all credibility.


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## darkhorse123 (18 June 2011)

DragonSlayer said:



			Before you can rant and rave and make a judgemental post such as this one, please DO read the whole thread.

MANY excellent points have been made both for and against, and it seems to me, you have just picked out the ones you want, in which to launch your angered post.

Sure, you have an opinion as much as anyone, but don't blast in with it saying ' ...have not read all....' because your arguement then loses all credibility.
		
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i disagree - using electric torture to load a horse is unacceptable, no matter how many posts you have read


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## BecsraeJD (18 June 2011)

DragonSlayer said:



			Before you can rant and rave and make a judgemental post such as this one, please DO read the whole thread.

MANY excellent points have been made both for and against, and it seems to me, you have just picked out the ones you want, in which to launch your angered post.

Sure, you have an opinion as much as anyone, but don't blast in with it saying ' ...have not read all....' because your arguement then loses all credibility.
		
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I read to around page 14, it's fairly obvious that the opinions are just going round in circles. I have to disagree with you believing that excellent points have been made for the use of the cattle prod, because they all lie upon unfounded grounds. I cannot believe any horse owner would condone such disgusting behaviour. This is my opinion, it is a free world and is entirely upto me wether or not I want to read the entire topic. This isn't some court case, it's a horse forum. Major difference. As mentioned previously, I gave up reading because it kept going round in circles, with the odd inclusion of personal slating.

I'm in shock at most of the comments made by a lot of members, not one in particular.


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## DragonSlayer (18 June 2011)

BecsraeJD said:



			I read to around page 14, it's fairly obvious that the opinions are just going round in circles. I have to disagree with you believing that excellent points have been made for the use of the cattle prod, because they all lie upon unfounded grounds. I cannot believe any horse owner would condone such disgusting behaviour. This is my opinion, it is a free world and is entirely upto me wether or not I want to read the entire topic. This isn't some court case, it's a horse forum. Major difference. As mentioned previously, I gave up reading because it kept going round in circles, with the odd inclusion of personal slating.

I'm in shock at most of the comments made by a lot of members, not one in particular.
		
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It seems you are still picking what you want out of it, AND not read the whole lot.

Your argument holds no water.


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## DragonSlayer (18 June 2011)

darkhorse123 said:



			i disagree - using electric torture to load a horse is unacceptable, no matter how many posts you have read
		
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You are well within your rights to disagree. I also disagree it's a sad state of affairs to do so.

BUT, not everyone agrees with you, as is their right.


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## BecsraeJD (18 June 2011)

DragonSlayer said:



			It seems you are still picking what you want out of it, AND not read the whole lot.

Your argument holds no water.
		
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It's not an argument, it's an opinion.


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## Serenity087 (18 June 2011)

So as long as we use electric torture to keep horses in one place, it's okay, but using electric torture to move them is cruel.

okay, I get it.  No double standards between leccy fences and cattle prods going on at all, whatsoever.

Come on Darkhorse123 - you're even less real than me with that pathetic argument!


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## fburton (18 June 2011)

DragonSlayer said:



			MANY excellent points have been made both for and against
		
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I'm astonished you think many excellent points were made for using electric shocks to get (let alone train) horses to load. I have read every word in this thread and cannot find even one compellingly good point in favour!


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## BecsraeJD (18 June 2011)

fburton said:



			I'm astonished you think many excellent points were made for using electric shocks to get (let alone train) horses to load. I have read every word in this thread and cannot find even one compellingly good point in favour!
		
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Point made. My reading of the entire 24 pages would not have changed my opinion.


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## DragonSlayer (18 June 2011)

fburton said:



			I'm astonished you think many excellent points were made for using electric shocks to get (let alone train) horses to load. I have read every word in this thread and cannot find even one compellingly good point in favour!
		
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What would you rather.....using 'Natural Horsemanship' methods which involve random hitting in the face with a lead-rope and a stick that does bugger all?

Wouldyou prefer several people trying to shove said horse in so it get's so het-up the fear grows?

Would you rather a beating with a large stick to get the horse in?

OR...a quick shock that helps the horse make up it's mind straight away?

These girls went about it the wrong way, and administered the prod at the wrong time...

BUT....

WHICH is the lesser of the two evils?

I'm astonished like you....at the amount of people here who get so het-up and in a frenzy over this, yet say nothing against the livestock who arre herded about everyday with these things.

I'm astonished those who believe in this 'Natural Horsemanship' will entertain such abuse with that, that has been seen...ropes, sticks, large bouncy balls......and will yell about a cattle prod, ranting about it being used on a horse, yet will confuse their horse to no end trying to teach it circus tricks, THAT is mental abuse in my mind.

I'm astonished that there are very few on this thread that seem to UNDERSTAND WHY such an item might be used WHETHER WE AGREE OR NOT.

It is a waste of time even TRYING to have a decent discussion in this place, as most throw their toys out of the pram the first second they get.


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## minigal (18 June 2011)

I didn't realise we had to pick our favourite method of abuse...can we just pick none of the above?


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## NinjaPony (18 June 2011)

Very suprised at the number of people who think it is ok to electrocute a horse to get it in a box.


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## DragonSlayer (18 June 2011)

minigal said:



			I didn't realise we had to pick our favourite method of abuse...can we just pick none of the above?
		
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Of course you can pick none of the above, as do I!

BUT.....points have been made here, that need discussions, and may people refuse to discuss, just yell.

Meh, knock yourselves out people, argue to the cows come home.....if you have to insult, refuse to accept others think differently to you....then....go ahead.


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## amandap (18 June 2011)

DragonSlayer said:



			What would you rather.....using 'Natural Horsemanship' methods which involve random hitting in the face with a lead-rope and a stick that does bugger all?

Wouldyou prefer several people trying to shove said horse in so it get's so het-up the fear grows?

Would you rather a beating with a large stick to get the horse in?

OR...a quick shock that helps the horse make up it's mind straight away?

These girls went about it the wrong way, and administered the prod at the wrong time...

BUT....

WHICH is the lesser of the two evils?
		
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I don't think the choices you list are actually what we are all faced with. There are many other approaches that don't include any of the things you have mentioned (not least, time and patience) so why are you stuck on either ors where none are acceptable?  For me all the things on your list are not acceptable so I personally would not restrict myself to making choices between those on your list. I know I am not alone.

I do accept others think differently but I don't have to like their thinking or agree just because I read it.


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## HappyHorses:) (18 June 2011)

Fookin heck! Could be any number of people from this thread!


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## darkhorse123 (18 June 2011)

DragonSlayer said:



			What would you rather.....using 'Natural Horsemanship' methods which involve random hitting in the face with a lead-rope and a stick that does bugger all?

Wouldyou prefer several people trying to shove said horse in so it get's so het-up the fear grows?

Would you rather a beating with a large stick to get the horse in?

OR...a quick shock that helps the horse make up it's mind straight away?

These girls went about it the wrong way, and administered the prod at the wrong time...

BUT....

WHICH is the lesser of the two evils?

I'm astonished like you....at the amount of people here who get so het-up and in a frenzy over this, yet say nothing against the livestock who arre herded about everyday with these things.

I'm astonished those who believe in this 'Natural Horsemanship' will entertain such abuse with that, that has been seen...ropes, sticks, large bouncy balls......and will yell about a cattle prod, ranting about it being used on a horse, yet will confuse their horse to no end trying to teach it circus tricks, THAT is mental abuse in my mind.

I'm astonished that there are very few on this thread that seem to UNDERSTAND WHY such an item might be used WHETHER WE AGREE OR NOT.

It is a waste of time even TRYING to have a decent discussion in this place, as most throw their toys out of the pram the first second they get.
		
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what a load of twaddle - think u need to shut up !!!!!


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## varkie (18 June 2011)

I truly don't see how anyone can justify the use of a cattle prod - on any animal.  

And I think minigirl makes a great point - this isn't about picking the better form of abuse, it's about saying a cattle prod isn't an acceptable tool when working with a difficult loader.  Just because it may be less cruel than other methods doesn't make it ok!  It is still wrong.


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## amandap (18 June 2011)

varkie said:



			I truly don't see how anyone can justify the use of a cattle prod - on any animal.  

And I think minigirl makes a great point - this isn't about picking the better form of abuse, it's about saying a cattle prod isn't an acceptable tool when working with a difficult loader.  Just because it may be less cruel than other methods doesn't make it ok!  It is still wrong.
		
Click to expand...

Simple and succint post that sums it up for me.


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## Amaranta (18 June 2011)

darkhorse123 said:



			what a load of twaddle - think u need to shut up !!!!!
		
Click to expand...

And I think you need to learn not to become insulting when people do not agree with you - it is childish and does nothing for your argument.

As I said before, I am against the use of a cattle prod on ANY animal and especially in the hands of complete incompetents as shown in the video so I do disagree with Dragonslayer, but at least she is putting points across without resorting to rudeness!


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## DragonSlayer (18 June 2011)

amandap said:



			I don't think the choices you list are actually what we are all faced with. There are many other approaches that don't include any of the things you have mentioned (not least, time and patience) so why are you stuck on either ors where none are acceptable?  For me all the things on your list are not acceptable so I personally would not restrict myself to making choices between those on your list. I know I am not alone.
		
Click to expand...

OK, last time I am going to say this, then I will retire from this thread.

Of COURSE none of those I listed are acceptable BUT why is it people cannot sit back, and say '....OK.....you said you needed to use that prod....why?'.....

Someone else then cannot say '....here are my reasons...'...

The first person could then reply '...have you tried this..?'...

Replied with 'No, I haven't...I will do, thanks'..

Instead, we get yells, insults, immature behaviour with name-calling blah blah blah...

The point I am trying to get across, and am obviously failing....is that WHY can people NOT discuss the points of WHY it might deemed a better way to go than others. 

As much as we would like, not everyone thinks the way we would like them to, and if given the choice, I would rather said person give the poor creature a short, sharp shock, than the usual beating it might get. And yes, HAVE seen others beat horses to get them in, and use all manners of ways.

I am NOT condoning abuse, JUST trying to reason WHY someone might use that method. Because I bet they are not the first to use it! 

Or would you rather me yell back at you, with insults and derogatory remarks? Waste of time, right? 

I am wasting my time trying to debate a situation here as well, happens everytime....


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## DragonSlayer (18 June 2011)

Amaranta said:



			And I think you need to learn not to become insulting when people do not agree with you - it is childish and does nothing for your argument.

As I said before, I am against the use of a cattle prod on ANY animal and especially in the hands of complete incompetents as shown in the video so I do disagree with Dragonslayer, but at least she is putting points across without resorting to rudeness!
		
Click to expand...

Thankyou!!!!!!!

TRYING is the word......it is fine you disagree.....why can't others understand we don't need to insult each other?


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## DragonSlayer (18 June 2011)

darkhorse123 said:



			what a load of twaddle - think u need to shut up !!!!!
		
Click to expand...

I said I WAS going to leave this thread...

No. I will NOT shut up.

YOU are the type of person I am talking about, insults, rudeness, and an inability to act like an adult.


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## Amaranta (18 June 2011)

DragonSlayer said:



			Thankyou!!!!!!!

TRYING is the word......it is fine you disagree.....why can't others understand we don't need to insult each other?
		
Click to expand...

Yup there are some on this thread who seem incapable of rational discussion, they also misconstrue what is actually written, become emotive and then start to hurl insults which achieves absolutely nothing, they then go off and start another thread on almost the exact same subject


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## DragonSlayer (18 June 2011)

Amaranta said:



			Yup there are some on this thread who seem incapable of rational discussion, they also misconstrue what is actually written, become emotive and then start to hurl insults which achieves absolutely nothing, they then go off and start another thread on almost the exact same subject 

Click to expand...

Of course I can accept many don't agree with my train of thought....but heck!

Telling me to shut up?

Playground behaviour....

Tsk.....


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## Dobiegirl (18 June 2011)

Once again the insults have started Dark Horse telling someone to shut up is very immature, is this how you conduct yourself in the outside world when someone disagrees with you, you tell them to shut up. Show you are an adult and apologise.,


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## Amaranta (18 June 2011)

DragonSlayer said:



			Of course I can accept many don't agree with my train of thought....but heck!

Telling me to shut up?

Playground behaviour....

Tsk.....
		
Click to expand...

TBH that particular poster is very close to being the first one I have ever put on UI  really not worth the trouble of replying to, almost every post is an insult to someone or other.


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## CorvusCorax (18 June 2011)

**titters at all the people saying they are 'shocked'**


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## Echo Bravo (18 June 2011)

So Boolavoguedc, I'm the unpleasent one, having read some of the posts after mine, some of these people seem to think it's ok to use cattle prod. At lest I can live with myself, not sure about with some of the ops.


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## gracey (18 June 2011)

snaptie said:



			For those who would dismiss me I'm not bleating that a half tonne of horse does not need controlling or that a slap/crack is needed if things go awry. 

What I find strange a so-called horse forum mainly supports such idiotic actions. You clearly see the handler either deliberately or frankly stupidly doing little or nothing to encourage the horse to load up. And in fact standing in his way. Then we get sparky yellow jumping in all too willing to shock the horse for not obeying immediately whatever they expect him to understand. 

Only for the clearly confused and frightened horse I would find this laughable. For both the cold people with their pre-judged action of shits and giggles filmed for youtube or the gullible who reason that that this is right. 

My point is what kind of weirdos will film themselves sparking an electric prod off a barbed fence before shooting footage of a horse getting the same and laughing about it too, regardless of the horses manners (and frankly he didn't appear more than slightly hesitant eitherway)? 

Why is that acceptable?
		
Click to expand...

 

^^^ well said ..101% agree ..


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## Dobiegirl (18 June 2011)

CC I so agree the irony has escaped them.


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## Ravenwood (18 June 2011)

minigal said:



			Oooh I am not knocking it if it works!  However I have found it amusing to watch a pony (and it's normally a tiny little thing with a very smug expression) being run towards the ramp and it grinding to a halt yet again.  It will, of course load in time but only when it feels the time is right and it has driven its poor handler (normally a flustered mother) to tears of frustration.
		
Click to expand...

LMAO     Been there, done that....sooooo many times!


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## NinjaPony (18 June 2011)

varkie said:



			I truly don't see how anyone can justify the use of a cattle prod - on any animal.  

And I think minigirl makes a great point - this isn't about picking the better form of abuse, it's about saying a cattle prod isn't an acceptable tool when working with a difficult loader.  Just because it may be less cruel than other methods doesn't make it ok!  It is still wrong.
		
Click to expand...

Totally agree with that.


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## Trinity Fox (18 June 2011)

I have not read all the replies on this thread but a few, my family and i have lots of horses between us i bring on and sell and my dad runs point to pointers so am used to dealing with all types.

I have seen all types of extreme behaviour especially from young tbs who can really throw the toys out of the pram and display sometimes dangerous behaviour while i do not condone letting horses walk all over you resorting to this type of training or even trying to justify it as being better than a beating frankly shows a lack of horsemanship.

Myself or any of my family have never had to do either even when dealing with fit hyper racehorses playing up.

I also buy from some of the not so nice markets often buying unhandled horses and  youngsters so have seen the rough handling funnily enough in any situation we still never have to resort to this type of handling it is lazy as far as i am concerned.
And yes we have had lots who have exhibited bad agressive behaviour but still have never needed to behave in such a stupid way,and i have no stuck up thought that we are some amazing unique people just sensible firm fair and patient.


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## Natch (18 June 2011)

Has anyone mentioned hitler yet? Nazis?


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## CorvusCorax (18 June 2011)

**Naturally invokes Godwin's Law**


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## Amaranta (18 June 2011)

HITLER!  GOEBELS!  NAZIS!

and




_whispers_ gypsies

Thats me banned then


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## CorvusCorax (18 June 2011)

Franch Nazi Gypsies


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## Amaranta (18 June 2011)

CaveCanem said:



			Franch Nazi Gypsies
		
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who are dealers - it's disgusting I tell you


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## Mike007 (18 June 2011)

CaveCanem said:



			Franch Nazi Gypsies
		
Click to expand...

Franch Nazi Gypsies using draw reins.


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## CorvusCorax (18 June 2011)

Franch Nazi Gypsy Dealers Using Draw Reins And Asking 'How Much Is He Worth?' and Posting Pics in New Lounge and Having Massive Sigs


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## Amaranta (18 June 2011)

CaveCanem said:



			Franch Nazi Gypsy Dealers Using Draw Reins And Asking 'How Much Is He Worth?' and Posting Pics in New Lounge and Having Massive Sigs
		
Click to expand...

whilst not wearing hats


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## CorvusCorax (18 June 2011)

...or Hi Viz or a body protector....


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## Amaranta (18 June 2011)

CaveCanem said:



			...or Hi Viz or a body protector....
		
Click to expand...

but completely matchy matchy right down to the cattle prod


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## CorvusCorax (18 June 2011)

Oooooh, where do I get a pink shiny diamante cattle prod?


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## Hacked_Off (18 June 2011)

Amaranta said:



			but completely matchy matchy right down to the cattle prod 

Click to expand...

Whilst doing Parelli with their barefoot unrugged horses


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## Amaranta (18 June 2011)

CaveCanem said:



			Oooooh, where do I get a pink shiny diamante cattle prod?
		
Click to expand...

As it happens I am just about to start marketing them in pink AND purple, bargain at £2,500


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## Hacked_Off (18 June 2011)

Amaranta said:



			As it happens I am just about to start marketing them in pink AND purple, bargain at £2,500 

Click to expand...

Do you do them with the horses name written on in diamante?


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## Amaranta (18 June 2011)

Hacked_Off said:



			Do you do them with the horses name written on in diamante?
		
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Oh yes AND at no extra charge to boot


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## Mike007 (19 June 2011)

Amaranta said:



			Oh yes AND at no extra charge to boot 

Click to expand...

Whats Diamante ??????Seriously


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## Munchkin (19 June 2011)

DragonSlayer said:



			Meh, knock yourselves out people, argue to the cows come home...
		
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Do you mean 'til the cows come home? Because I don't think that'll be too long - they have cattle prods up their *rses!


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## CorvusCorax (19 June 2011)

Mike007 said:



			Whats Diamante ??????Seriously

Click to expand...

Little fake diamonds made of glass or plastic? I think? 

I want my cattle prod to say, in diamante, 'I DID ask nicely...'


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## Hacked_Off (19 June 2011)

Mike007 said:



			Whats Diamante ??????Seriously

Click to expand...

Little diamonds that are stuck onto things


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## Mike007 (19 June 2011)

CaveCanem said:



			Little fake diamonds made of glass or plastic? I think? 

I want my cattle prod to say, in diamante, 'I DID ask nicely...'
		
Click to expand...

Congratulations you win the prize for the first sane answer on this thread So its horsey "Bling"


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## CorvusCorax (19 June 2011)

Yaaaaaay!


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## Mike007 (19 June 2011)

CaveCanem said:



			Yaaaaaay!
		
Click to expand...

Prize to be shared with Hacked off.


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## Hacked_Off (19 June 2011)

Mike007 said:



			Prize to be shared with Hacked off.

Click to expand...

Woooo! What's the prize? Something good i hope!


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## CorvusCorax (19 June 2011)

Erm...a diamante cattle prod?!


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## Mike007 (19 June 2011)

Hacked_Off said:



			Woooo! What's the prize? Something good i hope!
		
Click to expand...







  A genuine autographed picture of Bob the "not a"cob.


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## CorvusCorax (19 June 2011)

I want to know what Bob is so interested in. You're clearly withholding his feed and he has spotted his box


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## Mike007 (19 June 2011)

CaveCanem said:



			I want to know what Bob is so interested in. You're clearly withholding his feed and he has spotted his box 

Click to expand...

Damn ,your right,he is half crazy with hunger and has spotted that the next jump is a hedge.


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## Hacked_Off (19 June 2011)

CaveCanem said:



			I want to know what Bob is so interested in. You're clearly withholding his feed and he has spotted his box 

Click to expand...

Either that, or someone is chasing him with a cattle prod


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## Mike007 (19 June 2011)

Hacked_Off said:



			Either that, or someone is chasing him with a cattle prod 

Click to expand...

And his amused expression is because he knows exactly where he is going to shove it.


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## Tickles (19 June 2011)

Not sure what is going on with this thread but if that is you/your horse Mike007 please have a think abt rider diets and weight before getting/letting that rider get back on!


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## CorvusCorax (19 June 2011)

Hmmm, wrong thread!


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## Mike007 (19 June 2011)

Tickles said:



			Not sure what is going on with this thread but if that is you/your horse Mike007 please have a think abt rider diets and weight before getting/letting that rider get back on!
		
Click to expand...

LOL.


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## Suzie86 (19 June 2011)

This thread is like a strange merging of the weight one and the hitting horses one!!!! There are some right twits on here


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## Amaranta (19 June 2011)

Tickles said:



			Not sure what is going on with this thread but if that is you/your horse Mike007 please have a think abt rider diets and weight before getting/letting that rider get back on!
		
Click to expand...


Ditto - wrong thread luv


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## Time Tells (20 June 2011)

Mike007 said:








  A genuine autographed picture of Bob the "not a"cob.
		
Click to expand...

I think Mike...You are winding us up!


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## Trixie64 (22 June 2011)

At the risk of resurrecting this mess of a thread, I thought I should pop this post on here. I've been waiting to get my account activated andony today got the link in my inbox.

I'm horsetrix on youtube and I'm responsible for the message which someone quoted on the first page of this thread. I decided to report the video to the RSPCA on the basis of the glee expressed by the two people during the video and also in their comment when the video was uploaded.

From the very start of the video, it was obvious that the filly would be zapped, no matter how she behaved, given the demonstration of the zapper on the barbed wire fence. I could go on about how the handler's body language prevented the filly from loading, but that boils down to poor handling and lack of knowledge of body language.

For me, what caused me to report the video was at 0:55 (the video has been removed so you can't check it out) when the filly began to step onto the ramp to load and got zapped for her troubles. You can argue that that boils down to really bad timing, but you'd have to persuade me that it was a one-off. Given the tone of the message which accompanied the video on upload, it is obvious that they see nothing wrong in what they were doing, even when they watched it on playback.

I don't want to get into any argument about how effective the RSPCA are, nor even the rights and wrongs of zapping a horse with a cattle prod. My issue was with this particular video and the strong impression that the filly was set up to fail so that the use of the cattle prod could be recorded. I will point out that the law says you can use a electric encourager to get animals to move forward ONLY if the way forward is clear, otherwise the use breaks the law.


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## Wagtail (22 June 2011)

Trixie64 said:



			At the risk of resurrecting this mess of a thread, I thought I should pop this post on here. I've been waiting to get my account activated andony today got the link in my inbox.

I'm horsetrix on youtube and I'm responsible for the message which someone quoted on the first page of this thread. I decided to report the video to the RSPCA on the basis of the glee expressed by the two people during the video and also in their comment when the video was uploaded.

From the very start of the video, it was obvious that the filly would be zapped, no matter how she behaved, given the demonstration of the zapper on the barbed wire fence. I could go on about how the handler's body language prevented the filly from loading, but that boils down to poor handling and lack of knowledge of body language.

For me, what caused me to report the video was at 0:55 (the video has been removed so you can't check it out) when the filly began to step onto the ramp to load and got zapped for her troubles. You can argue that that boils down to really bad timing, but you'd have to persuade me that it was a one-off. Given the tone of the message which accompanied the video on upload, it is obvious that they see nothing wrong in what they were doing, even when they watched it on playback.

I don't want to get into any argument about how effective the RSPCA are, nor even the rights and wrongs of zapping a horse with a cattle prod. My issue was with this particular video and the strong impression that the filly was set up to fail so that the use of the cattle prod could be recorded. I will point out that the law says you can use a electric encourager to get animals to move forward ONLY if the way forward is clear, otherwise the use breaks the law.
		
Click to expand...

Completely agree with you. You did the right thing.


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## fburton (22 June 2011)

Trixie64 said:



			For me, what caused me to report the video was at 0:55 (the video has been removed so you can't check it out)
		
Click to expand...

Some of us who expected the video would sooner or later be removed will have taken a copy.




			when the filly began to step onto the ramp to load and got zapped for her troubles. You can argue that that boils down to really bad timing, but you'd have to persuade me that it was a one-off.
		
Click to expand...

The issue of timing is debatable though, isn't it? I thought it was rotten timing myself, but others here would disagree and say "but the horse went on, didn't it?".




			Given the tone of the message which accompanied the video on upload, it is obvious that they see nothing wrong in what they were doing, even when they watched it on playback.
		
Click to expand...

Agreed.




			I don't want to get into any argument about how effective the RSPCA are, nor even the rights and wrongs of zapping a horse with a cattle prod. My issue was with this particular video and the strong impression that the filly was set up to fail so that the use of the cattle prod could be recorded. I will point out that the law says you can use a electric encourager to get animals to move forward ONLY if the way forward is clear, otherwise the use breaks the law.
		
Click to expand...

I'm not doubting what you say at all, but I would be very grateful if you could cite the relevant law so I can see it in B&W and have it for future reference.


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## Amaranta (22 June 2011)

Trixie64 said:



			At the risk of resurrecting this mess of a thread, I thought I should pop this post on here. I've been waiting to get my account activated andony today got the link in my inbox.

I'm horsetrix on youtube and I'm responsible for the message which someone quoted on the first page of this thread. I decided to report the video to the RSPCA on the basis of the glee expressed by the two people during the video and also in their comment when the video was uploaded.

From the very start of the video, it was obvious that the filly would be zapped, no matter how she behaved, given the demonstration of the zapper on the barbed wire fence. I could go on about how the handler's body language prevented the filly from loading, but that boils down to poor handling and lack of knowledge of body language.

For me, what caused me to report the video was at 0:55 (the video has been removed so you can't check it out) when the filly began to step onto the ramp to load and got zapped for her troubles. You can argue that that boils down to really bad timing, but you'd have to persuade me that it was a one-off. Given the tone of the message which accompanied the video on upload, it is obvious that they see nothing wrong in what they were doing, even when they watched it on playback.

I don't want to get into any argument about how effective the RSPCA are, nor even the rights and wrongs of zapping a horse with a cattle prod. My issue was with this particular video and the strong impression that the filly was set up to fail so that the use of the cattle prod could be recorded. I will point out that the law says you can use a electric encourager to get animals to move forward ONLY if the way forward is clear, otherwise the use breaks the law.
		
Click to expand...


totally agree, as I said in my post, the poor horse was set up to fail and the two girls concerned obviously wanted it that way


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## Amymay (22 June 2011)

Amaranta said:



			totally agree, as I said in my post, the poor horse was set up to fail and the two girls concerned obviously wanted it that way 

Click to expand...

I also agree that this horse was set up to fail.


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## tigerlily12345 (22 June 2011)

Trixie64 said:



			At the risk of resurrecting this mess of a thread, I thought I should pop this post on here. I've been waiting to get my account activated andony today got the link in my inbox.

I'm horsetrix on youtube and I'm responsible for the message which someone quoted on the first page of this thread. I decided to report the video to the RSPCA on the basis of the glee expressed by the two people during the video and also in their comment when the video was uploaded.

From the very start of the video, it was obvious that the filly would be zapped, no matter how she behaved, given the demonstration of the zapper on the barbed wire fence. I could go on about how the handler's body language prevented the filly from loading, but that boils down to poor handling and lack of knowledge of body language.

For me, what caused me to report the video was at 0:55 (the video has been removed so you can't check it out) when the filly began to step onto the ramp to load and got zapped for her troubles. You can argue that that boils down to really bad timing, but you'd have to persuade me that it was a one-off. Given the tone of the message which accompanied the video on upload, it is obvious that they see nothing wrong in what they were doing, even when they watched it on playback.

I don't want to get into any argument about how effective the RSPCA are, nor even the rights and wrongs of zapping a horse with a cattle prod. My issue was with this particular video and the strong impression that the filly was set up to fail so that the use of the cattle prod could be recorded. I will point out that the law says you can use a electric encourager to get animals to move forward ONLY if the way forward is clear, otherwise the use breaks the law.
		
Click to expand...

totally agree!! this is disgusting and the girls were clearly trying to get some attention at the expense of the horse




			Some of us who expected the video would sooner or later be removed will have taken a copy.
		
Click to expand...

how do you take a copy of a video from youtube?


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## Trixie64 (22 June 2011)

fburton said:



			Some of us who expected the video would sooner or later be removed will have taken a copy.


The issue of timing is debatable though, isn't it? I thought it was rotten timing myself, but others here would disagree and say "but the horse went on, didn't it?".


Agreed.


I'm not doubting what you say at all, but I would be very grateful if you could cite the relevant law so I can see it in B&W and have it for future reference.
		
Click to expand...


I found this document, Equine Industry Welfare Guidelines Compendium for Horses, Ponies and Donkeys (Third Edition)
http://www.newc.co.uk/codes/documents/EquineBrochure09.pdf

On page 41, at the end of Paragraph 295 which deals with transporting horses, it states;




			The use of electric prods upon horses is not permitted.
		
Click to expand...

While this document is Guidance only, it represents accepted interpretation of the relevant statutes and is used by courts, police and animal welfare organisations.

DEFRA publishes the Code of Recommendations for the Welfare of Livestock. Under the heading of cattle it states




			The use of electric goads on adult cattle should be avoided as far as possible. If goads are used you should always ensure that there is suffiient space for them to move forward
		
Click to expand...

The Codes of Practice are published to interpret and give specific examples pertaining to the Animal Welfare Act (2006). National and Local Authorities published codes of practice and guidance. Horses seem to fall between farm livestock and pets, which is why I have quoted from the cattle guidance.


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## Trixie64 (22 June 2011)

Quote:
Some of us who expected the video would sooner or later be removed will have taken a copy.  

how do you take a copy of a video from youtube?
		
Click to expand...

Being a bit of a technonumpty, I personally pointed my mobile phone at the computer screen and recorded it.


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## amandap (22 June 2011)

Trixie64 said:



			My issue was with this particular video and the strong impression that the filly was set up to fail so that the use of the cattle prod could be recorded. I will point out that the law says you can use a electric encourager to get animals to move forward ONLY if the way forward is clear, otherwise the use breaks the law.
		
Click to expand...

I agree with this and I found their tone and using an animal for sadistic amusement vile and totally unacceptable. 

Imo, you made the right decision and good on you for being so clear in your complaint. I tend to get lost a bit in the emotions it brings up in me.

I want to know how you copy videos please?


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## Mike007 (22 June 2011)

Trixie64 said:



			Being a bit of a technonumpty, I personally pointed my mobile phone at the computer screen and recorded it.
		
Click to expand...

For some of us even doing that would be considered the height of technology


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## Amymay (22 June 2011)

So Trixie,  What has been the outcome with the RSPCA???


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## fburton (22 June 2011)

Trixie64 said:



			I found this document, Equine Industry Welfare Guidelines Compendium for Horses, Ponies and Donkeys (Third Edition)...
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info.

I think you can get software to download and save videos from YouTube, but I just fish the relevant movie file out of my cache folder. It's usually easy to spot as being larger than other files, but you can clear the cache first and then it should be obvious which file it is. (I use the Opera browser - YMMV!) I suppose pointing a mobile phone at the screen is one way!


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## amandap (22 June 2011)

Trixie64 said:



			Being a bit of a technonumpty, I personally pointed my mobile phone at the computer screen and recorded it.
		
Click to expand...

I've done this with pics of stolen horses but hadn't thought of video. Mind you my phone only takes about 30 seconds of video.


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## amandap (22 June 2011)

fburton said:



			I think you can get software to download and save videos from YouTube, but I just fish the relevant movie file out of my cache folder. It's usually easy to spot as being larger than other files, but you can clear the cache first and then it should be obvious which file it is. (I use the Opera browser - YMMV!) I suppose pointing a mobile phone at the screen is one way! 

Click to expand...

Ok, I'll set a whole day aside to understand and work out how to apply this to my computer.


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## Trixie64 (22 June 2011)

Imo, you made the right decision and good on you for being so clear in your complaint. I tend to get lost a bit in the emotions it brings up in me.
		
Click to expand...

I was a bit lost in the emotion as well, but was totally exhausted after spending two weeks finding and arranging recovery of my 3 horses, stolen 3 years ago. I'd made so many phone calls and had to continually repeat a rather complicated story so many times that being clear about this video in one more phone call was a doddle.


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## amandap (22 June 2011)

Trixie64 said:



			I was a bit lost in the emotion as well, but was totally exhausted after spending two weeks finding and arranging recovery of my 3 horses, stolen 3 years ago. I'd made so many phone calls and had to continually repeat a rather complicated story so many times that being clear about this video in one more phone call was a doddle.
		
Click to expand...

Wow. I don't think I'd be able to do anything constructive at all under those circumstances. I'm so very glad to hear you found and recovered your horses after such a period. Hope they're ok too.


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## tigerlily12345 (25 June 2011)

has  there been any response from the RSPCA? *sits knowing the likely answer already*


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## Trixie64 (19 August 2011)

Don't know what the outcome was was planning to phone them in a week or two. I've  been snowed under what with the return of my horses and son being on holiday from school.


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## soulfull (19 August 2011)

video now removed


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