# Soaking hay ... What a palaver ...



## Greylegs (19 March 2015)

... And just how much good does it do? My boy has been a bit sore on his feet and vet is saying the dreaded "L" word!! He's on box rest for a week and I've been told to soak his hay. I keep him on livery at a yard quite close to home, and have a tub etc to use, but timings are proving a challenge. Just how long does it need to be soaked for and how long is too long? His morning net will have been sitting in mucky water overnight for up to 16 hours by the time he gets it. Alternative is soaking for 2-3 hours. Everything I've read is confusing me. Some literature says 2-3 hours is enough to make a meaningful reduction in sugar levels, but other stuff says it needs at least 12 hours. Can I soak it during the day, take it out to drain and then feed it the following morning? Any thoughts or advice would be welcome. Thanks.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (19 March 2015)

Two to three hours is fine, buy a huge trug from Jewson for each haynet.I think it will be ok left drained overnight.
You need to rinse off after the soak for best results.
Having removed minerals buy hoof related minerals, forageplus or progressive earth. Add 25gms of salt per day. 
No molasses or afalfa, obviously there is molasses in pony nuts and licks and most chaffs [molassesss=moglo]
So feed Fast Fibre or quick beet [ie non molassed]
This is similar to feeding for barefoot, if the shoes are off they may be off for  while [farrier will advise]
The laminitis [maybe low grade lamintis? LGL] is going to have to be managed, probably best to stable at least part of the day, while feeding ad lib soaked hay. Keep using the minerals, all year round.
Miscronised linseed is good for skin, hoof, and condition in winter , cn be fed from 25 gms to 250gms per day. [summer - winter]


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## Exploding Chestnuts (19 March 2015)

Do not be tempted to starve the horse, this is an old idea related to fat ponies and laminitis. If he needs to shift weight then discuss it with your vet.
The sugars in grass are maximum in spring, autumn, on lush grass, on frosted grass and in the forenoon.


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## ycbm (19 March 2015)

You can soak it for sixteen hours, no problem. I soak for twenty four and drain and leave for up to another twenty four, but check it's not gone warm, and shake it loose if it has and feed when cold.


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## Micky (19 March 2015)

Wintertime when temps are low, its advisable to soak for more than 4 hours, over night is fine, as long as you rinse and feed straight away. Summer time when temps are warmer, you can get away with soaking for 2/3 hours.
I soak mine overnight, rinse and feed , put another lot into soak in the morning, pull it out in the afternoon, rinse and feed. Its just finding a routine that suits, i am up to mine x2 a day so thta does make it easier. 
As bonkers has said, check your feed too. Yes it is worth it if you want a sound horse


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## Colouredwelsh (19 March 2015)

I've been using a wheelie bin for my soaking. It's easy then to thread net string through handle of bin, pull up out of water and tie. Leave to drain while you muck out. No mess and no getting wet or having it dripping all over. Then wheel bin to nearest draining area and tip out. 

I've been soaking this way for the last 12 months or so twice a day. Simples.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (19 March 2015)

I drilled a hole in the wheelie bin to allow water to drain out, you can buy wooden plugs from a yacht chandler. 
But I found the trugs were quicker, and have more uses than a wheelie bin with a hole in it!


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## Greylegs (19 March 2015)

Thanks everyone.  You lot are great .... 

My boy is a 15 year old highland who's been barefoot all his life and never had any issues before. He could do with shifting a bit of weight, but the vet has told me to cut his food intake to 6.5kgs per day max, that's including his hard feed as well as hay. Whilst she's not doubt basing this on his body weight, when I got 6.5kgs of food together in one place yesterday (2 small nets plus two small feeds of HiFi Light, unmolassed beet and a measure of lo cal balancer) it looked woefully inadequate. i'm reluctant to drop his intake so dramatically in one go, so am going to reduce gradually over a week or so and see how he goes. The vet has told me to take him off Happy Hoof (I thought that was OK!?) so I've substituted the HiFi Light. 

I'll get into the soaking thing I'm sure. Just need to get into a routine. I'll look at hoof supplements as well. 

Thanks again all. I'm prepared to anything I can to get this boy right, but it's all a bit new to me at the moment.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (19 March 2015)

Hi Fi light still has molassess, low in sugar [their words] is relative at 7%
Ingredients: Cereal straw, alfalfa, molasses, mould inhibitor

Happy Hoof: can't find the ingredients,   I am not sure that it much different from HiFi Light, but it is promoted as a hay replacer, a tiny handful is not going to kill the horse, but there are non additive chaffs out there' When any horse [or human] is on restricted diet I am always very wary of additives, not sure if this is scientific or just my gut feeling.
I would buy a weightape and measure the pony once a week every week at the same time, you don't want to lose weight too rapidly, but it will be difficult to tell just by looking, use the "weight" over two weeks, and adjust accordingly. If soaking properly there should be little chance of fattening the pony on almost any diet.
The number of feeds may need to be adjusted to make sure the horse does not stand for eight hours with no food.
The diet of 6.5kgs feed if fed at 2%% of bodyweight estimates the actual current weight as 6.5 times 50 = 325Kgs, is this correct?   ...... I stand to be corrected as I m not good at maths.


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## gocharliego (19 March 2015)

I feel your pain! I'm soaking hay for two ponies and it's a right faff. I soak hay during the day for about 7-10 hours and over night for up to 14 hours in two big trugs, then rinse the hay before leaving it to drain for another good 12 hours. Hifi light has molasses in it, so I would be thinking about removing that from his feed. Dengie do a molasses free chaff and Honeychop do a plain chopped oat straw, which are OK alternatives. 

Not sure if your vet has mentioned it, but have you thought about testing for cushings?


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## Greylegs (19 March 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			Hi Fi light still has molassess, low in sugar [their words] is relative at 7%
Ingredients: Cereal straw, alfalfa, molasses, mould inhibitor

Happy Hoof: can't find the ingredients,   I am not sure that it much different from HiFi Light, but it is promoted as a hay replacer, a tiny handful is not going to kill the horse, but there are non additive chaffs out there' When any horse [or human] is on restricted diet I am always very wary of additives, not sure if this is scientific or just my gut feeling.
I would buy a weightape and measure the pony once a week every week at the same time, you don't want to lose weight too rapidly, but it will be difficult to tell just by looking, use the "weight" over two weeks, and adjust accordingly. If soaking properly there should be little chance of fattening the pony on almost any diet.
The number of feeds may need to be adjusted to make sure the horse does not stand for eight hours with no food.
The diet of 6.5kgs feed if fed at 2%% of bodyweight estimates the actual current weight as 6.5 times 50 = 325Kgs, is this correct?   ...... I stand to be corrected as I m not good at maths.
		
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No. He weight tapes at around 615kgs and doesn't look unduly heavy for his type.  He's a very chunky highland with a lot of bone, huge shoulders, a deep barrel of a body and a broad chest -  a real mini heavy ...... (Will have to try to post a recent pic) He's not unduly cresty either. Clearly he needs to lose some but I have known him heavier!! (he's only 14.2 ... my old YO used to call him "a big horse on short legs!"...). His feeds comprise a level stubbs scoop of HiFi Light (used to be H/Hoof), another of soaked beet and half a pint jug of balancer in the evening, and the chaff and beet combo for breakfast. I add a small amount of Flax oil to help his coat and a bit of salt. I used to add a carrot chopped up small as well, but have stopped that. I need to get his hay right as he'd eaten up this morning but had drunk noticeably less water overnight that normal. I don't want to cure his sore feet and finish off with colic!!!! Thanks for your advice. It's much appreciated.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (19 March 2015)

A full on overweight 16.2 hh TB which we once got back from an owner for racehorse training had an actual weight of 650kg [I used to weigh 60 horses per week on a very accurate scale]. 
The weightapes are no use for horses and ponies a bit off the scale, however they are excellent for monitoring weight loss/gain.

So, my guess is your very solid highland will be around 500kgs.
Take measurements. measure from point of shoulder to point of rump and from girth to the wither.

Here is Blue Cross site
http://www.bluecross.org.uk/80161-80956/How-to-check-the-weight-of-your-horse.html

Heartgirth squared times length of body in inches x 330 = weight in lbs.
The answer in lbs
Divide the answer by 2.2 to get weight in kgs.

1% of 500kgs= 5kgs
0.5% of 500kgs = 2.5kgs

SO, the required diet for your highland [which of course I have never seen! and know nothing of], is min 1.5%=7.5kgs
Maintenance @ 2% is 10kgs


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## ILuvCowparsely (19 March 2015)

Greylegs said:



			... And just how much good does it do? My boy has been a bit sore on his feet and vet is saying the dreaded "L" word!! He's on box rest for a week and I've been told to soak his hay. I keep him on livery at a yard quite close to home, and have a tub etc to use, but timings are proving a challenge. Just how long does it need to be soaked for and how long is too long? His morning net will have been sitting in mucky water overnight for up to 16 hours by the time he gets it. Alternative is soaking for 2-3 hours. Everything I've read is confusing me. Some literature says 2-3 hours is enough to make a meaningful reduction in sugar levels, but other stuff says it needs at least 12 hours. Can I soak it during the day, take it out to drain and then feed it the following morning? Any thoughts or advice would be welcome. Thanks.
		
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Having lost my mare to *L*  I soaked 24 hr  no less and rinsed thoroughly till water clear - I had hay soaked indifferent stages of soaking and then added new to the beginning as I used a section.

This website is purely previous H&H post of various ailments , there is a lot on Lami - http://horse-care-and-advice.weebly.com/l.html

I would not feed happy hoof to a  horse having a flare up of laminitis.


 Phone D&H help line


Also Equimins Laminator is good for making the vessels more elasticated in the hoof to help with circulation.


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## Greylegs (19 March 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			A full on overweight 16.2 hh TB which we once got back from an owner for racehorse training had an actual weight of 650kg [I used to weigh 60 horses per week on a very accurate scale]. 
The weightapes are no use for horses and ponies a bit off the scale, however they are excellent for monitoring weight loss/gain.

So, my guess is your very solid highland will be around 500kgs.
Take measurements. measure from point of shoulder to point of rump and from girth to the wither.

Here is Blue Cross site
http://www.bluecross.org.uk/80161-80956/How-to-check-the-weight-of-your-horse.html

Heartgirth squared times length of body in inches x 330 = weight in lbs.
The answer in lbs
Divide the answer by 2.2 to get weight in kgs.

1% of 500kgs= 5kgs
0.5% of 500kgs = 2.5kgs

SO, the required diet for your highland [which of course I have never seen! and know nothing of], is min 1.5%=7.5kgs
Maintenance @ 2% is 10kgs
		
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I'll try that, thanks. Will be interesting to see how that comes out. i'll report back. Here's a pic of him taken last week ... not a brilliant pic, straight in from the field, but it gives you a feel for his size and shape. A bit of a chunk!! (Hope this works ...)






IMG_2583 by NittyNattyNora, on Flickr

ETA ...nope, didn't work. Never could work out how to post pics.  Anyway ... I'll try the measuring thing and see what I get. Thanks again.


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## ILuvCowparsely (19 March 2015)

I know these are expensive but they hold a section hay perfectly and it is what I use to drain the water 

off  http://www.homebase.co.uk/en/homeba...rackets/duraline-basket-runner---white-107839


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## Greylegs (19 March 2015)

gocharliego said:



			I feel your pain! I'm soaking hay for two ponies and it's a right faff. I soak hay during the day for about 7-10 hours and over night for up to 14 hours in two big trugs, then rinse the hay before leaving it to drain for another good 12 hours. Hifi light has molasses in it, so I would be thinking about removing that from his feed. Dengie do a molasses free chaff and Honeychop do a plain chopped oat straw, which are OK alternatives. 

Not sure if your vet has mentioned it, but have you thought about testing for cushings?
		
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Yes, the vet did mention doing blood tests to test for Cushings and EMS.  We have another appointment for next week so we'll see how it goes after a week on the new feed regime. The vet told me to ditch the Happy Hoof (which looks like good advice) and get HiFi Light instead, which i've done. It's a bit of a minefield, and i'm tying to find my way through at the moment. I just want my boy to be sound and healthy .... might be chucking a whole bag of HiFi Light on the muck heap this afternoon!!! ... ARGH!!! I have an excellent local feed store so will see what else they have in stock instead.


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## Greylegs (19 March 2015)

HGA-12 said:



			I know these are expensive but they hold a section hay perfectly and it is what I use to drain the water 

off  http://www.homebase.co.uk/en/homeba...rackets/duraline-basket-runner---white-107839

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Nice idea, thanks for posting, but wouldn't work for me.  The yard has its hay in big round bales so I take what I need from that supply. They're fine with me using however much I need, which is great, but I pull off the right weight and net it. So i'm soaking it ready netted.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (19 March 2015)

Greylegs said:



			Yes, the vet did mention doing blood tests to test for Cushings and EMS.  We have another appointment for next week so we'll see how it goes after a week on the new feed regime. The vet told me to ditch the Happy Hoof (which looks like good advice) and get HiFi Light instead, which i've done. It's a bit of a minefield, and i'm tying to find my way through at the moment. I just want my boy to be sound and healthy .... might be chucking a whole bag of HiFi Light on the muck heap this afternoon!!! ... ARGH!!! I have an excellent local feed store so will see what else they have in stock instead.
		
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Someone will buy your chaff off you, don't bin it!
Have you looked at the feet [in detail] so you can identify white line stretch and so on, the farrier will have time to talk to you about hooves if you spend time with him, we often forget there is someone with a lot of knowledge about hooves, a good farrier knows rather a lot!


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## MyBoyChe (19 March 2015)

Im in the same boat as the OP, a very solid, chunky 14.2 highland.  For the first time ever I am soaking hay.  I feed 6.5kg dry weight of a hay and straw mix every day plus 1 round scoop of hi fi lite in the morning.  By feeding straw and hay mixed he gets more bulk in the feed, he was very very grumpy with 6.5 kg of hay only, straw is much lighter so more in his tummy. I soak the hay and add dry straw.  I soak half the hay overnight, then the rest through the day and feed am and pm.  He is out almost 24/7 but have also switched to shavings in his box to stop him gorging on more straw.  This routine has managed to get him to almost his ideal weight but am very conscious we are just about to hit spring grass   If anyone can add any tips for managing very very good doers through spring and summer I would be very grateful, as Im sure would lots of us.  On my weigh tape he is 605kg, did get up to 640 in December


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## Exploding Chestnuts (19 March 2015)

The grass is higher in sugar in autumn, in spring, when green, when lush, when plentiful, green and just grass! 
Also more sugar in forenoon, and when frosted.
The idea of "paddock paradise" is that horses have to keep exercising while seeking something to eat.
If you are not  able to do this, then I think you will have to do more hacking,  as long as you can keep going, they will keep going, a steady six hour hack is nothing to a fit highlander. If they can be stabled part of the day, even four hours per day, it might be better.
Keep walking.


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## tallyho! (19 March 2015)

ycbm said:



			You can soak it for sixteen hours, no problem. I soak for twenty four and drain and leave for up to another twenty four, but check it's not gone warm, and shake it loose if it has and feed when cold.
		
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That's gross!! Two day old slimy hay????? 

Op sugar leaches out of grass VERY VERY quickly. 30mins is enough. Go to safergrass.org and read all about it.

When I was soaking hay I soaked a net while I was mucking out and hung it for the night/day so it had drained well. 

In the end, after lots of research I found the reason for his lami and it was nothing to do with sugar so stopped soaking hay and he was able to eat grass like a normal horse. Good luck with yours


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## Greylegs (19 March 2015)

MyBoyChe said:



			Im in the same boat as the OP, a very solid, chunky 14.2 highland.  For the first time ever I am soaking hay.  I feed 6.5kg dry weight of a hay and straw mix every day plus 1 round scoop of hi fi lite in the morning.  By feeding straw and hay mixed he gets more bulk in the feed, he was very very grumpy with 6.5 kg of hay only, straw is much lighter so more in his tummy. I soak the hay and add dry straw.  I soak half the hay overnight, then the rest through the day and feed am and pm.  He is out almost 24/7 but have also switched to shavings in his box to stop him gorging on more straw.  This routine has managed to get him to almost his ideal weight but am very conscious we are just about to hit spring grass   If anyone can add any tips for managing very very good doers through spring and summer I would be very grateful, as Im sure would lots of us.  On my weigh tape he is 605kg, did get up to 640 in December 

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I can't tell you you relieved I was to read this post.  i was beginning to think my boy is the chunkiest highland out there, but clearly he's comparable to others. My problem at the moment is that he's on box rest so can only eat what I give him.  The straw idea might be worth looking at because the yard does have a supply of good quality straw which lots of folks use for bedding.  My lad is on shavings on top of rubber matting. I'm now at the point where i'm considering moving to an alternative yard where I can restrict and manage his grass intake a lot better (they allow strip grazing on individual turnout paddocks, where my current yard doesn't) and where the hacking is a lot better (it's awful where I am now!) so I can get him moving a lot more. Once sound, that might be the way forward. Only problem there is that it's a DIY yard and I'm on a 5 day full livery arrangement where I am now. Hey ho ... just have to get used to getting up in the mornings!!!!

Thanks again everyone.  i'm off to the yard with a tape measure ....


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## Greylegs (19 March 2015)

So ... back from my measuring mission.  He measures 78 round his middle and 72.5 long. Which calculates out to 607kg ... so the vet's tape (615kg) wasn't too far out.  Either way, he should probably be nearer 550 - 560 kg so that's what we'll aim at.

Tallyho ... thanks for the link.  The more I read about this the better so I can get on top of it in my head. Offered him some straw just now and he didn't seem interested so that's probably not an option. I suspect I'll be fishing it out of his bed at tea time !!!

Onwards and upwards ...


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## MyBoyChe (19 March 2015)

Mine always eats his hay first, I net it hay on the bottom, soak, drain then add the straw.  He bats the net around until all the hay has gone but always finishes the straw by the time the next net is due.  My boy was so bad tempered because he was hungry on his minimum rations, maybe your lad isnt as hungry as you think.  Based on the  feed ration for his weigh taped weight when he was 640 kg he was getting 8kg hay/straw plus whatever grass he could scavenge from his very bare winter paddock, plus his hifi.  I am gradually reducing it as his weight drops and because his tummy is fuller he has become much more amenable again.  Feeding natives is much harder work than you think it is going to be!


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## gocharliego (19 March 2015)

Greylegs said:



			Yes, the vet did mention doing blood tests to test for Cushings and EMS.  We have another appointment for next week so we'll see how it goes after a week on the new feed regime. The vet told me to ditch the Happy Hoof (which looks like good advice) and get HiFi Light instead, which i've done. It's a bit of a minefield, and i'm tying to find my way through at the moment. I just want my boy to be sound and healthy .... might be chucking a whole bag of HiFi Light on the muck heap this afternoon!!! ... ARGH!!! I have an excellent local feed store so will see what else they have in stock instead.
		
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It is so difficult trying to figure out what is best. Best of luck and I hope he comes sounds. 



MyBoyChe said:



			Im in the same boat as the OP, a very solid, chunky 14.2 highland.  For the first time ever I am soaking hay.  I feed 6.5kg dry weight of a hay and straw mix every day plus 1 round scoop of hi fi lite in the morning.  By feeding straw and hay mixed he gets more bulk in the feed, he was very very grumpy with 6.5 kg of hay only, straw is much lighter so more in his tummy. I soak the hay and add dry straw.  I soak half the hay overnight, then the rest through the day and feed am and pm.  He is out almost 24/7 but have also switched to shavings in his box to stop him gorging on more straw.  This routine has managed to get him to almost his ideal weight but am very conscious we are just about to hit spring grass   If anyone can add any tips for managing very very good doers through spring and summer I would be very grateful, as Im sure would lots of us.  On my weigh tape he is 605kg, did get up to 640 in December 

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I don't think I would be feeding the hifi light, it has a deceptive title really as it has molasses in it - an oat straw chaff or fibre mash would be better, you could even use them as a partial hay replacement. Use a grazing muzzle when turned out on grass (preferably at night), bring in during the day or just take him off the grass (especially is he has a grazing muzzle to give him a break from it) and feed soaked hay from several nets over each other (so, double or triple netting). Other than that, just plenty of exercise and monitor digital pulses morning and night. Think that's all I've got! Good luck for this spring and summer.


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## Mister Ted (19 March 2015)

Depends how rich your hay is.Dont believe it is a waste of time.My lad was munching happily on 2 years old hay when we had to use a much newer bale in Jan. about 9mths old.Despite mixing a small amount  with older he went down with an acute laminitis attack.After soaking the new,The very dark  solution that came out was amazing.After running out of the older hay we tried to get another lot of the same and left the newer bales till the end of the year.Leaving it to soak for around 7hrs should ok but not much longer as it can become smelly and unpalatable.Rinsing the hay  after soaking helps to get rid of the sugars.If you can get hold of older hay but still good quality its half the battle and about 3hrs soaking is usually effective if the horse is prone to laminitis.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (19 March 2015)

I suppose the chaff can be soaked, leaving only straw chaff, but a heck of a faff lol.


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## ycbm (19 March 2015)

tallyho! said:



			That's gross!! Two day old slimy hay????? 

Op sugar leaches out of grass VERY VERY quickly. 30mins is enough. Go to safergrass.org and read all about it.

When I was soaking hay I soaked a net while I was mucking out and hung it for the night/day so it had drained well. 

In the end, after lots of research I found the reason for his lami and it was nothing to do with sugar so stopped soaking hay and he was able to eat grass like a normal horse. Good luck with yours 

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Of course I don't feed slimy hay, for the simple reason that it is not slimy.

30 minutes is not enough for severely affected horses. My friend had one which was only happy on her feet if the hay was soaked TWICE for 24 hours each time, with clean water in between. She was severely insulin resistant and in the end tested positive for cushings and was then put down..

What was the reason for your horses laminitis?


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## tallyho! (19 March 2015)

ycbm said:



			Of course I don't feed slimy hay, for the simple reason that it is not slimy.

30 minutes is not enough for severely affected horses. My friend had one which was only happy on her feet if the hay was soaked TWICE for 24 hours each time, with clean water in between. She was severely insulin resistant and in the end tested positive for cushings and was then put down..

What was the reason for your horses laminitis?
		
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Ok, well perhaps not and if the horse is sound then that is what matters. 

I have found the study and I admit I was quite wrong! 24 hour soaking does remove more sugar than 1 hour. So I apologise 

Here you are: http://www.extension.umn.edu/agriculture/horse/nutrition/hay-soaking/

Note the mineral content.

My horse was suffering from IMS but was fit. In the end it turns out his liver and kidneys were very sluggish. I could never work out why he had swollen legs and the mud fever was severe on top of the lami. 

Sorted the liver and kidneys and this seemed to clear up the mf, he was much brighter, less footy and after a while was turned out without a muzzle with his buddies and competed barefoot.

There are many causes for lami, I think the vet world is waking up to that it's not just sugar. Sometimes over supplementation can be a factor and I was certainly overdoing it on the old balancers!! I took him off everything, and he just had speedibeet and chaff with some magnesium and copper rich licks. His liver just couldn't cope with all the minerals!


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## ycbm (19 March 2015)

tallyho! said:



			Ok, well perhaps not and if the horse is sound then that is what matters. 

I have found the study and I admit I was quite wrong! 24 hour soaking does remove more sugar than 1 hour. So I apologise 

Here you are: http://www.extension.umn.edu/agriculture/horse/nutrition/hay-soaking/

Note the mineral content.

My horse was suffering from IMS but was fit. In the end it turns out his liver and kidneys were very sluggish. I could never work out why he had swollen legs and the mud fever was severe on top of the lami. 

Sorted the liver and kidneys and this seemed to clear up the mf, he was much brighter, less footy and after a while was turned out without a muzzle with his buddies and competed barefoot.

There are many causes for lami, I think the vet world is waking up to that it's not just sugar. Sometimes over supplementation can be a factor and I was certainly overdoing it on the old balancers!! I took him off everything, and he just had speedibeet and chaff with some magnesium and copper rich licks. His liver just couldn't cope with all the minerals!
		
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That's very interesting thank you for explaining about your horse.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (20 March 2015)

tallyho! said:



			O
I have found the study and I admit I was quite wrong! 24 hour soaking does remove more sugar than 1 hour. So I apologise 

Here you are: http://www.extension.umn.edu/agriculture/horse/nutrition/hay-soaking/

Note the mineral content.

My horse was suffering from IMS but was fit. In the end it turns out his liver and kidneys were very sluggish. I could never work out why he had swollen legs and the mud fever was severe on top of the lami. 

Sorted the liver and kidneys and this seemed to clear up the mf, he was much brighter, less footy and after a while was turned out without a muzzle with his buddies and competed barefoot.

There are many causes for lami, I think the vet world is waking up to that it's not just sugar. Sometimes over supplementation can be a factor and I was certainly overdoing it on the old balancers!! I took him off everything, and he just had speedibeet and chaff with some magnesium and copper rich licks. His liver just couldn't cope with all the minerals!
		
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Looking at this survey, 24 hour soaking removes Dry Matter, though I can't work out how much, I would guesstimate 10%, so would increase the amount of forage to compensate, else one might overstarve  the horse who is already on a restricted diet.

quote "When soaking hay, additional hay should be soaked to account for the loss in DM."

I find it difficult to determine correct mineral content for horses, as we were always told a horse exretes excess.
And there is no mention of salt.


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## Micky (20 March 2015)

He will also drink less dueto eating soaked hay, they get a lot of water from that so don't worry too much that his water trug isn't as empty as when on normal hay


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## tallyho! (20 March 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			Looking at this survey, 24 hour soaking removes Dry Matter, though I can't work out how much, I would guesstimate 10%, so would increase the amount of forage to compensate, else one might overstarve  the horse who is already on a restricted diet.

quote "When soaking hay, additional hay should be soaked to account for the loss in DM."

I find it difficult to determine correct mineral content for horses, as we were always told a horse exretes excess.
And there is no mention of salt.
		
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We'll I suppose it would be the combined reduction of sugars and minerals considering the dry matter has been soaked extensively in water!  DM is the dry content which includes carbs, minerals, fats and proteins and fibre etc etc...

I think what's important to draw from the study is that, soaking not only removes the unwanted sugar, it takes everything with it including carbs and minerals which is essentially salts and Na is bound to a lot of things. 

Since carbs are an important part of a horses diet, it's important not to restrict it or else you cause other pathologies and are essentially starving the horse. And the high calcium content is detrimental to health... on top of that, what owners typically do is supplement a broad spectrum mineral balancers and further exacerbates the original problem.

Considering laminitis is a metabolic problem, soaking hay leaches out some of the essential metabolises the horse needs just to function. Whilst the horse may seem sound... is it? 

I agree with the study that hay should be analysed, all other supplemented foodstuffs be taken into account and then soaked accordingly.

Or.... you could just fix the glaring issue... which in most cases in this country and the USA... Over feeding and over supplementation which the system just can't cope with in the first place. This is widely reported by every veterinary practice in the UK.

We just need to look at laminitis in a different way. It's not a sugar issue...


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## Exploding Chestnuts (20 March 2015)

tallyho! said:



			We'll I suppose it would be the combined reduction of sugars and minerals considering the dry matter has been soaked extensively in water!  DM is the dry content which includes carbs, minerals, fats and proteins and fibre etc etc...

I think what's important to draw from the study is that, soaking not only removes the unwanted sugar, it takes everything with it including carbs and minerals which is essentially salts and Na is bound to a lot of things. 

Since carbs are an important part of a horses diet, it's important not to restrict it or else you cause other pathologies and are essentially starving the horse. And the high calcium content is detrimental to health... on top of that, what owners typically do is supplement a broad spectrum mineral balancers and further exacerbates the original problem.

Considering laminitis is a metabolic problem, soaking hay leaches out some of the essential metabolises the horse needs just to function. Whilst the horse may seem sound... is it? 

I agree with the study that hay should be analysed, all other supplemented foodstuffs be taken into account and then soaked accordingly.

Or.... you could just fix the glaring issue... which in most cases in this country and the USA... Over feeding and over supplementation which the system just can't cope with in the first place. This is widely reported by every veterinary practice in the UK.

We just need to look at laminitis in a different way. It's not a sugar issue...
		
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WHOA there .............
Calcium: what matters is the ratio of Ca to P, and I believe remains within acceptable parameters [note scientific term]
I know what dry matter is, its what is left when water is removed from a product, as happens when the oven is left on too long, but not high enough to burn something, the original product retains most of its goodness.

The soaking water is going to selectively remove constituents from the product [hay]
1] sugars -------- these are water soluble, by definition.
2] minerals leach [as above], but some will be bound in to the hay, so we really are in the dark, this is why minerals are added, and as we are in trouble with the hoof, we would assume that using a mineral balanced for feet is the ideal.
Salt [NACl]is very soluble and is required for many functions, so salt is a good  additive, however "salts" covers a whole number of compounds, from chemistry you recall acid+base=salt + water, only a base containing Na will produce "common salt"
Common salt absorbs moisture from the air, and this will spoil any mineral or feed mix, so it is best added to the daily feed.

Yes, in a perfect world we would take the soaked hay and subject it to analysis, and from there, if we know the exact weight and the exact RDA then we could make up a mineral for the horse, be this is not possible.
The evidence suggests that a horse in reasonable health can excrete those minerals it does not require.

Comments about over feeding of supplements are very general, if you go to the Becktolsteimer yard each of the top horses have their own supplement, this is based on detailed scientific plans, it is not detrimental to the health of their horses. However many people do not feed a good basic diet including a BALANCED mineral mix, instead they rush down to the feedstore and pick up the first product that seems to  "cure" today's problem, I have done this myself when faced with horses with a problem who have arrived at the yard without having been fed properly in the previous months.

This study does not suggest that "all supplements are wrong" and no supplements should be fed. Anything that is added to the diet of hay or grass may be viewed as a supplement.


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## tallyho! (20 March 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			WHOA there .............
Calcium: what matters is the ratio of Ca to P, and I believe remains within acceptable parameters [note scientific term]
I know what dry matter is, its what is left when water is removed from a product, as happens when the oven is left on too long, but not high enough to burn something, the original product retains most of its goodness.

The soaking water is going to selectively remove constituents from the product [hay]
1] sugars -------- these are water soluble, by definition.
2] minerals leach [as above], but some will be bound in to the hay, so we really are in the dark, this is why minerals are added, and as we are in trouble with the hoof, we would assume that using a mineral balanced for feet is the ideal.
Salt [NACl]is very soluble and is required for many functions, so salt is a good  additive, however "salts" covers a whole number of compounds, from chemistry you recall acid+base=salt + water, only a base containing Na will produce "common salt"
Common salt absorbs moisture from the air, and this will spoil any mineral or feed mix, so it is best added to the daily feed.

Yes, in a perfect world we would take the soaked hay and subject it to analysis, and from there, if we know the exact weight and the exact RDA then we could make up a mineral for the horse, be this is not possible.
The evidence suggests that a horse in reasonable health can excrete those minerals it does not require.

Comments about over feeding of supplements are very general, if you go to the Becktolsteimer yard each of the top horses have their own supplement, this is based on detailed scientific plans, it is not detrimental to the health of their horses. However many people do not feed a good basic diet including a BALANCED mineral mix, instead they rush down to the feedstore and pick up the first product that seems to  "cure" today's problem, I have done this myself when faced with horses with a problem who have arrived at the yard without having been fed properly in the previous months.

This study does not suggest that "all supplements are wrong" and no supplements should be fed. Anything that is added to the diet of hay or grass may be viewed as a supplement.
		
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Whoa there yourself...

The study says the ca ratio is high and soaking sets to reduce phosphorous and not calcium so that is why the ratio is inverted when hay is soaked.

As for over supplementation "comments", this is not a generalisation. On the contrary... Mineral supplementation which is "assumed" without knowing the true need of the animal is not best practice. Which is probably why Dr Bechstolscheimer's horses all receive a bespoke nutritional plan. Plus they are all in regular work! All the veterinary articles on supplementation suggest forage is analysed before balancing to reduce toxicosis. There are no studies that provide exact requirements... Only guidelines and that is why there are so many on the market claiming they can do miraculous things. I think we agree on this...

The study doesn't say anything about supplementation, it just shows what can be leached from hay samples.

My experience (and subsequent research) has shown me, however, that oversupplemetation is a concern all owners of metabolically challenged horses should consider. The effects on absorption and excretion should be one of the main considerations. A scattergun approach can lead to some minerals inhibiting the absorption of others e.g. Cu and Fe.


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## ChesnutsRoasting (20 March 2015)

I soak overnight in a Wheelie Bin with a plastic tap attached at the bottom (cheap as chips on EBay). In colder weather with cold water the sugars will not seep out as effectively compared to soaking in warm water.


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## OLDGREYMARE (20 March 2015)

Really recomend that you look at The Laminitis Site and join the associated fb group for ems and ppid horses.The ladies on there will help you with all things lami,diet,exercise, hay soaking,trimming etc.I did when I was in the same boat as you and received loads of informative,fact based help. I am sure you won't regret it.


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## Mike007 (20 March 2015)

Find some soft meadow hay(low in sugar ) and dont bother with the soaking.Waste of time.


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## tallyho! (21 March 2015)

Mike007 said:



			Find some soft meadow hay(low in sugar ) and dont bother with the soaking.Waste of time.
		
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I wouldn't have agreed with mike a few years ago but I wholeheartedly agree now!


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## Micky (21 March 2015)

Agree with oldgreymare...have a look at the laminitis site...its not all about the sugars, its about the starch levels as well and how much exercise you do with your horse, esp with ems.


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## Greylegs (21 March 2015)

Thanks for all the replies everyone. The advice is extremely helpful and I've certainly learned a lot from following up some of the links and information sources.  Still got a lot of reading to do, but I'm getting better informed by the day and getting my head round management of my boy's care going forward. I am now in a "soaking" routine, but seem to be soaking myself as much as the hay!! To say nothing of how heavy a net of soaked hay actually is.  Not sure my old back will stand much more of this!! But the vet is back on Tuesday, so I'll see where we go from there.

Micky ... interesting point about exercise. My lad has had less exercise over this winter than he has in previous years because I moved yards in November and the hacking from the new yard is not as good/safe as it was at the old place. We do have a decent indoor school but I'm not much for schooling these days so he's done less, which might be a contributing factor. More reading required on that topic I think.

Thanks again everyone. Interesting discussion and lots to learn.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (21 March 2015)

To save your back, empty the soaked haynet on the the floor near the drain, leave it  for a few minutes before lifting it .


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## Britestar (21 March 2015)

I've been soaking for 10 months now, for a horse that suffered very severe toxic lamintis, resulting in sinking in both hind feet, and rotation to a lesser degree in the fronts.

I soak for 24 hrs. I have 3 trug tubs, so 3 nets soaking and one hanging drying, whilst he eats another. I had this hay tested (home grown), it had been left til late in the season, and still tested 10% sugar. He also has a net of straw at all times. he's been boxed rested the whole time. He get honeychop plain (opnly oat straw chaff), D and H high fibres cubes (400g), Slim aid from feedmark and magnesium.

This week he had a insulin blood test, came back at 4.2, his feet are amazing now, so finally he'll be going out into a tiny paddock, but nonetheless, he'll be out!


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## MyBoyChe (8 April 2015)

Just re read this thread as I am in a very similar position to the OP, same type of pony, same issues.  There is so much to learn about this subject and when you start researching you uncover even more that you didnt even know you needed to know.  I started soaking hay about a month ago as my pony simply wasnt dropping enough weight even with no hard feed and minimal rugging!  It has made a huge difference, he has dropped more in the last month than in the previous 3 and is now almost where I need him to be going into spring.  I soak for 12 hours and he gets 3kg am and the same pm.  If it is very cold I add a little dry straw to the soggy hay to bulk it out.  He has just started picking over the hay and leaving the straw so rations are being cut again and his field has been sectioned off.  I agree, it is a pita soaking hay, dragging buckets of water around and huge, soggy, wet hay nets but in our case it has been completely worth it.  My OH has made up a little hay soaker for me.  Its one of those garden trolleys you see in Sunday supplements, a wire mesh one.  We have put a small plastic water trough in it, drilled a hole through the bottom of the trough and fitted a water butt tap then attached a length of hose to the tap.  I can pull the trolley to the water supple, fill it then drag it back to where I leave it.  Then just point the hose out into the yard, turn the tap to drain and leave the hay to dry a bit.  I do have to unblock the tap from time to time as bits of hay get stuck but it has made life easier.


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## Greylegs (8 April 2015)

Follow up post .... Vet now been again and all tests for EMS and Cushings A&E negative, so very happy about that. Pony's feet now cool and stable and sound on all surfaces, so am going to start him on gentle work again and build up from there.

However, we now have another problem ... Vet says he can go out on restricted grazing, but there isnt anywhere he can go on this yard and not able to fence off a section to contain him in. Think I'll have to go out and get some poles and tape and do the job myself (pony on full livery btw!). At the moment, I'm going up and bringing him in after 3hours to limit his grass time but not ideal. Pointless post really, but feel really frustrated about it all.


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## Apercrumbie (8 April 2015)

Your yard situation doesn't sound ideal.  Could you get him a muzzle?  I personally prefer to have mine on a larger field while muzzled 24/7 than on a tiny patch where they're not moving.  Well done for doing your research, lami is an absolute minefield and causes me more stress than anything else!  I soak my hay for 8-16 hours simply for convenience sake.  I put it in a big water trug by the drain so I just have to tip it over, wait a couple of minutes and then it isn't too heavy to lift.  IME soaking has been necessary - my boys were much worse without it.  However the best thing (once they're sound) is undoubtedly exercise.  A fit horse is very unlikely to get laminitis so once he's feeling better up the exercise as much as you can.  

Just a warning - now he's had lami he is much more likely to get it in the future so keep your eyes peeled for any sign of footiness from now on.  The moment you see any sign, bring him off grass straight away.  It's a faff but it will prevent a full blown attack.  Another thing to consider - larger natives like highlands and Welsh Sec D's are more susceptible to pedal bone rotation due to their higher weight.  Repeated attacks of lami are therefore often more dangerous.  If you have a trimmer, ask him/her to keep an eye out for any signs of rotation, again so you can catch it early.


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## Greylegs (8 April 2015)

Apercrumbie said:



			Your yard situation doesn't sound ideal.  Could you get him a muzzle?  I personally prefer to have mine on a larger field while muzzled 24/7 than on a tiny patch where they're not moving.  Well done for doing your research, lami is an absolute minefield and causes me more stress than anything else!  I soak my hay for 8-16 hours simply for convenience sake.  I put it in a big water trug by the drain so I just have to tip it over, wait a couple of minutes and then it isn't too heavy to lift.  IME soaking has been necessary - my boys were much worse without it.  However the best thing (once they're sound) is undoubtedly exercise.  A fit horse is very unlikely to get laminitis so once he's feeling better up the exercise as much as you can.  

Just a warning - now he's had lami he is much more likely to get it in the future so keep your eyes peeled for any sign of footiness from now on.  The moment you see any sign, bring him off grass straight away.  It's a faff but it will prevent a full blown attack.  Another thing to consider - larger natives like highlands and Welsh Sec D's are more susceptible to pedal bone rotation due to their higher weight.  Repeated attacks of lami are therefore often more dangerous.  If you have a trimmer, ask him/her to keep an eye out for any signs of rotation, again so you can catch it early.
		
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Thanks for this.  I agree I need to get him moving more. The whole situation has now been compounded by my beloved farrier having to retire for health reasons and I now have to look round for another one who I both like and "gets" the barefoot/lami thing. There are two things to consider now ... firstly whether to move to another yard where I can restrict grazing more and there's much better hacking, which will help with the diet and exercise: secondly, whether to shoe his fronts to protect them a bit. I agree the weight thing is critical (he's a chunk of a highland, weighing it at around 600kg at the mo!!). I'm absolutely prepared to do anything I can to get him right and keep him that way. But at the moment that means he's in 20 hours a day for his own sake. Not ideal!! I think the move is the best watt go and I'll discuss the foot care with whoever I get to be his care professional going forward.


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## Apercrumbie (8 April 2015)

Greylegs said:



			Thanks for this.  I agree I need to get him moving more. The whole situation has now been compounded by my beloved farrier having to retire for health reasons and I now have to look round for another one who I both like and "gets" the barefoot/lami thing. There are two things to consider now ... firstly whether to move to another yard where I can restrict grazing more and there's much better hacking, which will help with the diet and exercise: secondly, whether to shoe his fronts to protect them a bit. I agree the weight thing is critical (he's a chunk of a highland, weighing it at around 600kg at the mo!!). I'm absolutely prepared to do anything I can to get him right and keep him that way. But at the moment that means he's in 20 hours a day for his own sake. Not ideal!! I think the move is the best watt go and I'll discuss the foot care with whoever I get to be his care professional going forward.
		
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I think a move would be a good idea for you, not only to give you more flexibility with turnout but also for better hacking for those lovely summer evenings!  I entirely sympathise, I have exactly the same problems with my two natives and I struggle to get them enough exercise.  You sound like you're definitely on the right track so remember to give yourself a pat on the back every now and then, lami is so hard to manage and you're doing all the right things.


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## ILuvCowparsely (8 April 2015)

Greylegs said:



			... And just how much good does it do? My boy has been a bit sore on his feet and vet is saying the dreaded "L" word!! He's on box rest for a week and I've been told to soak his hay. I keep him on livery at a yard quite close to home, and have a tub etc to use, but timings are proving a challenge. Just how long does it need to be soaked for and how long is too long? His morning net will have been sitting in mucky water overnight for up to 16 hours by the time he gets it. Alternative is soaking for 2-3 hours. Everything I've read is confusing me. Some literature says 2-3 hours is enough to make a meaningful reduction in sugar levels, but other stuff says it needs at least 12 hours. Can I soak it during the day, take it out to drain and then feed it the following morning? Any thoughts or advice would be welcome. Thanks.
		
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Having lost my mare to *L*

Why don't you do what I did
   have 3-4 sections soaking  but  have a white board which says when they went in or use your  phone.  A pain I know but use different tubs.   It was easy for me as I had a big hay bath and had 4 sections on their side and called them 1 -2 -3 -4  and knew when they went in so each section she had  - was soaked 12 hrs and easy for others who fed her and when that section was used another put in.

 No hay in the water too long especially if u you use different containers like this - they can be refilled with new water for the new sections  http://www.amazon.co.uk/Tubtrugs-Go...28491549&sr=8-3&keywords=tubtrugs+extra+large


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## MyBoyChe (8 April 2015)

I think you need to move yards too.  Some YOs seem to be more worried about the yard routine and everything fitting in with them, than the welfare of the horses in their care (not saying this is your problem OP but a generalisation).  As a fairly new native owner, having only had TBs or part bred TBs for the last 30 odd years I can honestly say that my hardy native pony is harder to manage than my ex racehorse   He might be fine in the highlands of Scotland but in the lush pasture of North Bucks he is most definitely not.  I am on DIY and we all manage our own little patch.  I have had to really stick to my guns with my YOs and insist that in the summer most of my bit is fenced off, track systemed (sp) or just left to grow long until winter.  They don't like the "untidiness" but have accepted it is for the welfare of the pony and close their eyes when they drive past the long grass   I like him to be out as much as possible so never rest any for spring grass, I do it in reverse and save a bit for winter grazing.  He grazes the same patch 365 days a year with the exception of the bit that I save for winter


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## Greylegs (8 April 2015)

Thanks again for your support folks.  It really does help to "chat" to people who understand and have had similar experiences. I've put myself on the waiting list for the other yard and they have a space coming up very soon I hope. i'll move as soon as I can and will then have my own small patch to manage with a track system or strip grazing which will really help and give my lad a better quality of life too. The YO there is completely OK with that. Also, there's another highland at the other yard and I've had a chat with his owner who has said she may be willing to pair our two up as they're so similar as she's having to really restrict hers too. So I do have hope that things will look up and become easier soon. For now, I'm just going to have to keep restricting him at the present yard and giving him as much exercise as I can in the school until I can move.

Thanks again all.


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## 3OldPonies (8 April 2015)

HGA-12 said:



			I would not feed happy hoof to a  horse having a flare up of laminitis..
		
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Nor would I.  

I used it for my lami prone Shetland a few years ago when he didn't have laminitis and was on restricted grass, lots of exercise and wasn't overweight, and guess what happened - he got laminitis!!!  He was only getting a couple of handfuls at a time.  I wouldn't touch the stuff with a barge pole anymore.

Glad to hear that you have support at your yard, having the two highlands grazing together sounds a good plan. It will make the restriction on grazing much nicer (if that's possible) for them to have each other for company.  It could even stop 'helpful' people letting them out to be with others if they see they are not on their own.  I had that happen once with the shettie, someone thought I was being cruel giving him so little food and keeping him away from his bigger friends and all the lovely grass they were eating.  That led to an episode of lami as well after they let him out.  To do so they had to leave the public footpath and let down two electric fences . . . . some people


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