# New rule for arab showing in US



## lindsay1993 (12 May 2016)

Just read this on facebook 

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news...-535428?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social


No idea what shanking is so googled it and got this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jW_kWUip7TQ

The poor horses look terrified! How can this be allowed?? Clearly the horses must be used to getting a crack on the head at home to react like they do. 

I just don't get how this is allowed to happen?? I'd be after the handlers with a big stick if I saw something like that!  Awful people. :-(


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## ester (12 May 2016)

no mention of plastic bags I note..

essentially all to get your horse to look more wild eyed than it already does. I rather think, like TWHs, they need to overhaul the whole situation and start from the bottom up for in hand arab showing tbh. I'd worry that they will carry on doing it but just make it look like the horse exploded.


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## chillipup (12 May 2016)

About time too. What abhorrent behaviour. Why does it always seem to take soooo long for 'people' to actually recognize that some practices allowed to be carried out are at the detriment to the very horse/species they are trying to 'show' It's not bl00dy rocket science!!!!

And as for waving plastic bags at them....any spectator doing so should be evicted from a show/event as 'outside the ring, help' should be banned. If handlers are allowed to do this, it has to be stopped immediately. Why are we so slow to act? Has our moral compass finally failed us? Are we no longer able to tell what's right from wrong?


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## Rollin (13 May 2016)

If this works please see this You Tube from the Hungarian National Stud Babolna.  This was the winning stallion at the EU Championships in 2014.  The groom has a plastic bag on the end of a whip, I use one too, the stallion is not afraid of it and nor are any of my horses I include my year old CB filly.  It is a useful swishy and no more, it is not used to punish just to guide.

Shagya stallion GAZAL XIX-4
shagyaworld1


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## HashRouge (13 May 2016)

Do you really think that the horses are not frightened of the plastic bag Rollin? If that is the case, why do they react to it? I'm sure it's not as bad as shanking and whipping/ threatening the whip, but it's hardly what I'd call ideal practice.

Arabs are such beautiful, kind, loyal horses. It breaks my heart to see the way they are treated to get them to "perform" in the show ring


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## Rollin (13 May 2016)

HashRouge said:



			Do you really think that the horses are not frightened of the plastic bag Rollin? If that is the case, why do they react to it? I'm sure it's not as bad as shanking and whipping/ threatening the whip, but it's hardly what I'd call ideal practice.

Arabs are such beautiful, kind, loyal horses. It breaks my heart to see the way they are treated to get them to "perform" in the show ring 

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Have you looked at the film?  I was taught to use a plastic bag, not by an Arabian trainer but a one of only two John Lyons trainers in France, who is a western rider.  He is a horse trainer as famous in this region as Kelly Marks is in the UK.  Never cruel.  Do you use a schooling whip? Do you use a lunge whip?  You can frighten a horse with anything designed to hit it if used in appropriately.

Please note I have three Shagya Arabs and two part breds.  When our stallion was graded for SHGB, Sebastien Poirier who presented him, took his bridle off for the loose jumping and caught him again with no trouble, he got high marks for temperament.  He was broken in by my western trainer.  Quite well known in this area as an endurance horse and as a SJ and in particular for his fantastic temperament.  I think if we had treated him cruelly he would not be a nice horse.

I think I will put a video on my FB site using a plastic bag on the end of a schooling whip.


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## Pinkvboots (13 May 2016)

The bag waving is one of my pet hates to be honest in my view it just winds up the horses too much, I have been at some of the top Arab shows and you get bag wavers standing at the edge of the rings and it just ruins the whole thing a horse can be trotting round doing the real Arab floaty trot with tail up then someone does the bag thing and the horse goes off in a wild canter flinging itself about, I have seen a few handlers telling the bag wavers to stop as it just makes there job harder to keep the horse calm and get a good trot which is what the horse is supposed to do.

I am really glad they have stopped the shanking and whip abuse it does not make for nice viewing and I have seen quite a few nice horses ruined by years of abuse in the show ring.


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## ester (13 May 2016)

I think horse showing should be more refined than requiring the use of bits of plastic bags. They look awful and are just unnecessary in every way. Everyone else manages to guide their horses without them and horses can be trained to react the same way to something that isn't a plastic bag. I hate seeing them with Welshies too.
The people spectating/bag wavers running behind the lines waving them are even worse.

Oh and if they could stop the swinging them round in circles all the  time too..


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## HashRouge (13 May 2016)

Rollin said:



			Have you looked at the film?  I was taught to use a plastic bag, not by an Arabian trainer but a one of only two John Lyons trainers in France, who is a western rider.  He is a horse trainer as famous in this region as Kelly Marks is in the UK.  Never cruel.  Do you use a schooling whip? Do you use a lunge whip?  You can frighten a horse with anything designed to hit it if used in appropriately.

Please note I have three Shagya Arabs and two part breds.  When our stallion was graded for SHGB, Sebastien Poirier who presented him, took his bridle off for the loose jumping and caught him again with no trouble, he got high marks for temperament.  He was broken in by my western trainer.  Quite well known in this area as an endurance horse and as a SJ and in particular for his fantastic temperament.  I think if we had treated him cruelly he would not be a nice horse.

I think I will put a video on my FB site using a plastic bag on the end of a schooling whip.
		
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I can't watch the video - you haven't posted a link and I haven't got time to go hunting it down on youtube (dissertation calls!)

However, Ester and Pinkvboots have summer up my thoughts on using plastic bags. Plus, don't you risk frightening other people's horses, who aren't used to them? I don't think plastic bags are cruel per se (unlike shanking), I just don't see why it is necessary to frighten/ wind up the horses so much.


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## ester (13 May 2016)

links if people do want them, I have viewed them before when rollin has brought them up on a similar topic I think.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEmzUgJAgXE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70VVLp-XYmQ

 To me I also don't understand why having your horse look like it is on the point of explosion/excessively wild eyed is desirable anyway, and that is from a welshie fan!


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## Pinkvboots (13 May 2016)

ester said:



			links if people do want them, I have viewed them before when rollin has brought them up on a similar topic I think.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEmzUgJAgXE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70VVLp-XYmQ

 To me I also don't understand why having your horse look like it is on the point of explosion/excessively wild eyed is desirable anyway, and that is from a welshie fan!
		
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those videos are quite tame compared to some I have seen and it's such a tiny piece of plastic on the end of the stick, and the horse is trotting most of the time not going berserk it's the idiots at the side of the ring with a whole tesco bag flapping and shouting I can't stand,  although I still wouldn't use plastic on the end of the stick I don't think it's needed most Arabs perform quite happily without it. His a lovely stallion in the video I likes him a lot


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## ester (13 May 2016)

Yes I think shagya showing is a bit more tame than the standard lot. I still think it would be smarter without the bag/don't really see what it brings to the table that is of such great value.


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## HashRouge (13 May 2016)

ester said:



			Yes I think shagya showing is a bit more tame than the standard lot. I still think it would be smarter without the bag/don't really see what it brings to the table that is of such great value.
		
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I'm inclined to agree with you there. My experience of plastic bags in Arab showing has been a lot more extreme than the example in the video, hence my opposition! What is the actual purpose of the bag in the video - is it to do with the noise it makes? He's a beautiful horse but have to say I'd prefer it if he didn't look like he was about to mow down his handler 

I like it when in-hand show horses look like they could be led by a child, but that might just be me!


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## Pinkvboots (13 May 2016)

I think it is the noise factor I have seen some in hand people here use the same thing, neither of my Arabs would need it just the fact I am running and being in a show environment is enough to get them to perform, even just waving a whip about would wind my older Arab up too much you could show him without a whip/stick he just loves running about and showing off in front of an audience lol!


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## Goldenstar (13 May 2016)

ester said:



			Yes I think shagya showing is a bit more tame than the standard lot. I still think it would be smarter without the bag/don't really see what it brings to the table that is of such great value.
		
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Me too a horse can be trained to be directed by your body you don't really need a whip.
Surely a show horse should be the a quest for the best individual not the most startled horse I think it adds nothing and in fact makes it hard to assess the horses natural presence .
Rollins stallion is lovely but I have no interest in watching that sort of showing ( in truth any sort of showing ) .


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## J&S (13 May 2016)

I went to the Arab horse show at Malvern some years ago for the first time.  I was frankly horrified by the in hand showing, it was more like a circus ring.  However, by contrast, the ridden Arab classes were perfectly traditional with beautifully turned out riders and horses.  That video of "shanking" is just dreadful. How can an owner allow the handler to do that to their horse? The Shagya stallion looks like he would move that way anyway and the turn out of the handler is quite low profile, can't quite see why he needs the added piece on the end of his whip. So sad what humans will do to horses (or dogs ) just to WIN.


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## hackneylass2 (23 May 2016)

Reminds me of Hackneys in the Netherlands.  The whips and rattle bottles seem to do no more than to break the gait and wind up the horses. I'd much prefer to see a horse shown in hand with its natural spirit than to have it exaggerated by outside means! How can the judges really judge the paces?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZC3Jn0QaL0


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## ester (23 May 2016)

There is a lot of flapping etc that goes on with welshie too, but for the most part they do seem better at keeping up a stonking trot rather than breaking gait.


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## J&S (23 May 2016)

hackneylass2 said:



			Reminds me of Hackneys in the Netherlands.  The whips and rattle bottles seem to do no more than to break the gait and wind up the horses. I'd much prefer to see a horse shown in hand with its natural spirit than to have it exaggerated by outside means! How can the judges really judge the paces?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZC3Jn0QaL0

Click to expand...

I was once told of the most extreme methods used to get hackneys prepared for the show ring:  blind folded in their boxes and then the grooms told to bash footballs against the doors was one. They were apparently only just under control when they went into the arenas.  Once again, I can only say "how could any one do such a thing"! (or even think about it in the first place.)


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## tristar (23 May 2016)

how can anyone judge a horse`s head neck connection with its head stretched out how they show them, the angle of the head neck can sometimes determine how a horse will be capable of carrying its head when ridden.

i once went to the world championships in paris and i think the din was enough to damage your ears.

if you can`t evaluate a horse when it adopts its natural relaxed stance you should`nt be a judge, and truly spectacular movement is only produced by a horse under saddle, because any horse can passage when assaulted by bags and cans full stones and whips, if someone behaved like that to a horse in the street they might be prosecuted!


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## J&S (23 May 2016)

I am not sure that these showing Arab mares actually get ridden in their entire life time....... although I believe the stallions need to prove their performance ability.


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## Clodagh (25 May 2016)

Very interesting points on this thread.
I love that stallion of Rollins, but I do think he would even lovelier just trotting a fantastic and impressive circuit of the ring rather than spinning round the handler. At least he was light in the mouth and just looked excited, not petrified.
Thinking of the hackneys in their blacked out boxes, that happens here doesn't it, with the Welshies? Remember that mare died last year or the year before after overheating in a blacked out box. She died on the journey home. Hideous and dispicable. I am not a natural horseman obsessive and use bits, whips and so on but hopefully trying to achieve somethnig with the horse helping me. Probably why I am not a top competitior!


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## EstherYoung (26 May 2016)

Remember that these horses will have been trained at home. It may only be a tiny bit of plastic bag in the ring, or a tiny movement from the handler, but they will have been conditioned to react....


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