# OMG findus has 60-100% horsemeat in their lasagne!!



## meesha (7 February 2013)

On ITV news !!! made in France .... unbelieveable !!

All beef products to be tested !


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## Moomin1 (7 February 2013)

Arr Findus Crispy Pancakes are amazing too!


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## SaharaS (7 February 2013)

No wonder its called Findus lean Cuisine...


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## Moomin1 (7 February 2013)

SaharaS said:



 No wonder its called Findus lean Cuisine...
		
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100% TB!


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## CorvusCorax (7 February 2013)

I was reared on crispy pancakes


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## Moomin1 (7 February 2013)

CaveCanem said:



			I was reared on crispy pancakes 

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Back in the day Findus really did fetch in a fair buck or two..


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## Doris68 (7 February 2013)

Soon to be re-named FIND 'OSS.....!


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## Haylee (7 February 2013)

Makes you wonder, what other "meat products" horse meat is in


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## Elsiecat (7 February 2013)

Why the big hoo-haa!?
The only issue is that we have been lied to about the meat we are eating. Yes, that's very wrong.
But I keep seeing statuses on fb eg -
"to everyone that laughs at me for being veggie - you've probably been eating horsemeat for years, HA - I've had the last laugh.. the last laughs on you all!!!"

Erm? 
I really don't care.
Cow, sheep, pig, horse.
It's all lifestock.


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## CorvusCorax (7 February 2013)

Where did people think all those horses were going and where they were ending up? People have been warning of this for years (before the threads were pulled, ho hum).

I agree, no problem with eating horse, this is a labelling issue and a huge fraud issue and a lesson to buy and eat locally.


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## Moomin1 (7 February 2013)

Elsiecat said:



			Why the big hoo-haa!?
The only issue is that we have been lied to about the meat we are eating. Yes, that's very wrong.
But I keep seeing statuses on fb eg -
"to everyone that laughs at me for being veggie - you've probably been eating horsemeat for years, HA - I've had the last laugh.. the last laughs on you all!!!"

Erm? 
I really don't care.
Cow, sheep, pig, horse.
It's all lifestock.
		
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I don't really care at all what sort of meat I am eating.

However, there could be implications as to how it came to be in the meat chain and also where from.


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## Sandstone1 (7 February 2013)

Its also a concern what drugs the horses have been given. ie bute. we have no idea.


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## meesha (7 February 2013)

The issue for me is that is says "beef" on the packaging !!!  I agree that it is not necessarily wrong to eat horsemeat but I do like to know what I am buying.

and I hope these horses are not the ones being bought cheap in the uk - shipped in horrible conditions only to be slaughtered and returned to us in boxes - they could at least of had the decency if this is the case to slaughter them here !!

think France will be losing alot of business if this is the case ! I did always wonder how some meat was soo cheap (dont eat findus as not keen).


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## olop (7 February 2013)

The thing is the way I have heard people talk about it, nobody really cares.  All they care about is eating cheap and that is where the problem lies, if your prepared to eat cheap meat then it could be anything your eating - in these cases it just goes to show it really is a case of eating enything!


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## Haylee (7 February 2013)

Big up the local butcher


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## CorvusCorax (7 February 2013)

meesha said:



			and I hope these horses are not the ones being bought cheap in the uk - shipped in horrible conditions only to be slaughtered and returned to us in boxes - they could at least of had the decency if this is the case to slaughter them here !!
		
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I'd say that's exactly what has happened.
Consumers want cheap, businesses want to keep their margins down, this is what happens.

Despite all the crying on here some times, the UK has some of the best welfare standards in the worlds in their slaughterhouses and farms.

Out of sight, out of mind, buy it cheap, this is what happens.


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## Hunters (7 February 2013)

The supermarkets have pushed the profit boundaries too far

I'm buying my meat from a butcher from now on.  I don't object to eating horse, I just don't want a supermarket telling me lies. .....


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## Moomin1 (7 February 2013)

Hunters said:



			The supermarkets have pushed the profit boundaries too far

I'm buying my meat from a butcher from now on.  I don't object to eating horse, I just don't want a supermarket telling me lies. .....
		
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The supermarkets haven't told you lies necessarily.  It's the companies making the products.


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## case895 (7 February 2013)

Elsiecat said:



			Why the big hoo-haa!?
The only issue is that we have been lied to about the meat we are eating. Yes, that's very wrong.
But I keep seeing statuses on fb eg -
"to everyone that laughs at me for being veggie - you've probably been eating horsemeat for years, HA - I've had the last laugh.. the last laughs on you all!!!"

Erm? 
I really don't care.
Cow, sheep, pig, horse.
It's all lifestock.
		
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I would put money that some vegetarian ready meals have had horse meat in too. These criminals aren't going to care. I bet it's cheaper than Quorn or other such alternatives.


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## meesha (7 February 2013)

Hunters, I agree but they are talking about testing all beef products within a week (so the shelves maybe empty of beef products in the supermarkets before long!) - dont think anyone will be suprised at the results !!  unless of course we find horsemeat in our chicken curry ! 

Its a no-win situation - if the horses were being bought for meat and its stopped, what will happen to them then !  and if they are being bought for meat and exported we have all heard of the nasty conditions in export !

Maybe the UK market for horsemeat will increase with the knowledge that a. we have all been eating it more than likely for a long time and b. foot and mouth may be coming back and horses are one of the few livestock not to be affected !


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## lhotse (7 February 2013)

There won't be horsemeat in your chicken curry, it will be cat...


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## CorvusCorax (7 February 2013)

Seagull, surely?

Or maybe retired racing pigeons.


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## Spook (7 February 2013)

"Never buy a rabbit with it's skin off"....... "Why?"


Because it's a cat!


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## four_corners (7 February 2013)

Whilst many of you are saying you have no problem eating horsemeat, remember that in general horses are not bred for the meat market. Consequently they may have drugs in their systems which are not particularly good for humans. Bute, for example, has been researched and is known to stay in a horses system almost for it's entire lifetime. Bute poses a risk to human health.

So whilst some horses in France are bred for meat (although most meat breeds are now becoming endangered), most of the animals will have been more cheaply sought from eastern europe, and possibly also the UK. Would you still eat the meat knowing it had travelled hundreds if not thousands of miles in poor conditions? I'm sure we've all seen the photos of that.

Just goes to further point out that if you want to know where your food and meat comes from, buy locally as close to the source as possible. And don't pull the 'I'm poor and I need to buy this food as it's cheap' card. Just eat less meat, but buy better quality local meat.


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## Orchardbeck (7 February 2013)

I've been told that takeaways often substitute eel for chicken... When its covered in curry who's to know!


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## meesha (7 February 2013)

wouldnt suprise me with the takeaways - twice before we have had a takeaway (not from our usual place) and the chicken has not had the right texture ! looks too processed - definately something fishy going on !!

It is scary about the bute situation though - I dont expect for one minute the French (in the findus case) will be prosecuted.  I would not choose to eat animals I consider to be pets (personal choice - dog, cat, horse..) but if they are going to sell horsemeat - label it as such and regulate the industry, slaughter and process in this country as humanely as possible.

Just looked in our freezer and we have frozen mince !! def. not throwing it away (to me that is even worse than eating it - why waste it so others have to be killed) but would now be suprised if it was 100% beef !! - tasted good in the chilli tonight though ! had a kick to it !! sorry !!


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## ILuvCowparsely (8 February 2013)

tescoexpress said:



			I would put money that some vegetarian ready meals have had horse meat in too. These criminals aren't going to care. I bet it's cheaper than Quorn or other such alternatives.
		
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I very much doubt that.  That is a strong accusation to say.

 I have had many vege meals and since they have been approved by the vege society I do not see how that is possible. 

 I know so of you say how can you eat a pig but not ah horse.  Well that is down the the individual person who sees bovine and chickens and pigs in a different light to horses.

  The even looks at a horse burger makes my stomach churn.  Nothing in this world would make me eat an animal which i have been brought up with most of my life.  If I had been brought up with cows or pigs as pets I would feel the same way.


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## Wagtail (8 February 2013)

I don't eat meat, but if I did, I would not see a difference eating horse or eating cow. However, I do see two major problems with this. Firstly, it seems there were also traces of bute found in the samples, and secondly, it means that beef farmers are being undercut by fraudsters passing off horsemeat as beef. Both these things are incredibly serious.


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## 4x4 (8 February 2013)

Surely it's better too eat dead animals than waste them - all drugs are supposed to be on the passports.


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## Archiepoo (8 February 2013)

for me its not the fact of eating horsemeat -i dont have a problem with that exactly ,its the fact that you now cannot trust any product with "meat" to state honestly what its content is. its the bute etc that worrys me as a parent ,when ive always tried to make fresh for my children its not always practical or possible to do so ,so unless your entire family is veggie EVERYONE will have been affected by this.


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## Wagtail (8 February 2013)

4x4 said:



			Surely it's better too eat dead animals than waste them - all drugs are supposed to be on the passports.
		
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But they are not. The only time I have ever had my passport looked at by a vet was when I have taken them to Rossdales, or just to stamp the vaccinations page. Vets maybe supposed to note down all drugs on passports, and owners are supposed to sign the back saying that the horse must not enter the food chain, but this very rarely happens unless the horse gets referred to a major equine hospital.


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## suestowford (8 February 2013)

I suspect this is the tip of the iceberg and there will be more horsemeat found in many other products.
The sorry fact is, that if you buy food that's got meat in it you don't know what meat has been used. The only way to know for sure is to make the food yourself and not buy ready meals or processed meat products.


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## Oliver12 (8 February 2013)

four_corners said:



			So whilst some horses in France are bred for meat (although most meat breeds are now becoming endangered), most of the animals will have been more cheaply sought from eastern europe, and possibly also the UK. Would you still eat the meat knowing it had travelled hundreds if not thousands of miles in poor conditions? I'm sure we've all seen the photos of that.
		
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I agree entirely. I don't have an issue with what animal is eaten. To me it is all about the animal's welfare whilst it is alive and we all know that horses in eastern europe are treated abominably and no doubt this is where most of this cheap meat comes from.

I've never eaten a crap meat sausage, burger, lasagne etc in my life but I have no problem with other people eating this kind of poor diet but we do need to know what we are eating and where it has come from.


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## philamena (8 February 2013)

tescoexpress said:



			I would put money that some vegetarian ready meals have had horse meat in too. These criminals aren't going to care. I bet it's cheaper than Quorn or other such alternatives.
		
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I think this is highly, highly unlikely. Any vegetarian would be able to spot any kind of meat a mile off. You don't realise how distinctive the blood taste is underneath whatever the actual meat tastes like, until the taste of it is repulsive to you and completely dominates the flavour of any meat product. It's hard to explain, but long-term vegetarians who've accidentally eaten meat will know exactly what I mean! And how the texture is very distinctive, even when minced or processed.


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## Hedgewitch13 (8 February 2013)

That's why I don't buy processed or preprepared rubbish - you have no idea what has been put in it!


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## Olliecp77 (8 February 2013)

philamena said:



			I think this is highly, highly unlikely. Any vegetarian would be able to spot any kind of meat a mile off. You don't realise how distinctive the blood taste is underneath whatever the actual meat tastes like, until the taste of it is repulsive to you and completely dominates the flavour of any meat product. It's hard to explain, but long-term vegetarians who've accidentally eaten meat will know exactly what I mean! And how the texture is very distinctive, even when minced or processed.
		
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Totally, chicken tastes like tin foil to me now!!  Can spot it a mile off.  I always send someone in front of me at buffets to guide me and sometimes they think there is no meat and I inadvertently get the odd vol au vent with meat - couldn't disguise it.  I don't eat many mince type veggie things and quorn or plasticine as I call it is nothing like the texture of beef mince - its like a sponge to absorb flavour.  Maybe now there will be more effort made for vegetarian dishes in restaurants/cafes and more choice as more people turn to eating less meat 
My main concern as non horsey people haven't really twigged is the bute in the meat and the countries the meat is coming from potentially tuberculosis in countries.  This has shocked colleagues at work more than "oh there's horse in my food".


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## Luci07 (8 February 2013)

meesha said:



			Maybe the UK market for horsemeat will increase with the knowledge that a. we have all been eating it more than likely for a long time and b. foot and mouth may be coming back and horses are one of the few livestock not to be affected !
		
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No we absolutely do NOT want horses deemed to be livestock in the event of foot and mouth.  Last time, in case you have forgotten (!) horses were not allowed to move, compete etc etc and IF they had been deemed to have been livestock, then Defra would have legally been able to force horseowners to cull horses as carriers. There was a massive discussion at the time as Defra tried to change this discreetly but fortunately it came to light. 

And they have found traces of bute in some of the horsemeat. Anyone else feel even more bitter about the complete waste of time that our passports our? they are not a legal document, they clearly do not prevent a horse entering the food chain and they most certainly do not prove ownership.


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## fburton (8 February 2013)

The whole issue of bute contamination leaves a bitter taste in the mouth.


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## amandap (8 February 2013)

The bute issue and the trade description issues are very worrying but sadly not surprizing to me for processed foods.

Where are the horses for the Polish meat products from? They must be imported from around Europe in the first place. It seems a bit like money laundering just meat laundering.


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## FairyLights (8 February 2013)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...eat-dont-know-long-shelves.html#axzz2KDWywbXL

rendered horse used to make gummy sweets and jellyu! foal skins for shoes. All in the above article


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## amandap (8 February 2013)

When I was young horses were threatened with the glue or sweet factory not the meat factory.


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## philamena (8 February 2013)

Olliecp77 said:



			I always send someone in front of me at buffets to guide me and sometimes they think there is no meat and I inadvertently get the odd vol au vent with meat - couldn't disguise it.
		
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I do the same! Or get people to bite things for me ha ha. Once I put a whole mini-tart full of fish roe in my chops thinking it was some kind of blackberry compote. Literally disgusting. Eeewwww!


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## Rollin (8 February 2013)

I care enormously about what I eat.  I have NEVER eaten lasagne that I did not make myself with beef from a butcher.  Don't eat burgers or crsipy crepes either.

I do like to cook though so that makes a difference.


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## 4x4 (8 February 2013)

I always totally avoid burger vans - it amazes me that even at top quality events this is sometimes all the hot food on offer.  I thought about buying a van and coming out with home made chilli and jacket potatoes and soups etc. but when you see how much the vans cost, then how much they charge for a pitch at these events, it is prohibitive and then you see why they have the cheap burgers in the first place, everyone needs to make  living. It's  no - win situation I'm afraid.


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## SaharaS (8 February 2013)

I think the saying "as sure as eggs are eggs" could even beheld to question these days..you technically can recognise egg - lets face it they should be pretty safe if in their shells still..but we simply just have to take on trust what the chickens were raised on/injected with during their life...think we'll all have to just eat chocolate forever more, honestly it would probably be better for you!


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## fburton (8 February 2013)

SaharaS said:



			I think the saying "as sure as eggs are eggs" could even beheld to question these days..you technically can recognise egg - lets face it *they should be pretty safe if in their shells still*..but we simply just have to take on trust what the chickens were raised on/injected with during their life...think we'll all have to just eat chocolate forever more, honestly it would probably be better for you!
		
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It may be even worse than you suggest...

http://www.chinahush.com/2009/04/24/how-to-identify-fake-chicken-eggs/


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## case895 (8 February 2013)

Leviathan said:



			I very much doubt that.  That is a strong accusation to say.

 I have had many vege meals and since they have been approved by the vege society I do not see how that is possible.
		
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Is it any stronger than putting horse meat in to beef products? Not at all.

Do the Vegetarian Society scrutinise every delivery in to every food factory which makes vegetarian food? Do they sample every batch of veg mince for animal protein or DNA? Of course they don't! Tesco ready meals were approved by their supply chain quality people, but it still happened. If this was criminal behaviour, they would have made sure that inspectors from government, retailer and independent ones were nowhere to be seen.


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## case895 (8 February 2013)

I was listening to Jeremy Vine earlier (difficult as always as his phone-in always attracts the nut-jobs) and one person said they were switching to only buying from their local butcher. That made me think as 100m from my local butcher is a "static" (unmoving member of the itinerant community) who breeds ponies and horses (that is to say he has loads and ties them up on grass verges and even the garden of a block of flats next door to the County Police HQ). I have speculated before as to why he has so many (there must be 20 or so at a time) and where they go to.


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## lhotse (8 February 2013)

It is worth considering that the horsemeat found in these meals possibly hasn't even originated from the EU. Thousands of tons of horsemeat is imported from Mexico. Horses are transported thousands of miles across the US in appalling conditions, to meet an end in appalling conditions and could quite possibly now be in the readymeal in the freezer of a home in the UK. A large percentage are ex-racehorses, full of bute.
To those who are saying that they have no problem eating horsemeat, neither have I, so long as it's been treated in a humane way, but as we all know, even in the EU, this is not the case. 
As for the supermarkets, they have for too long sourced the cheapest ingredients to gain the biggest profit margins. This could just be their final undoing, as more people are really wanting to know exactly where their food comes from. The highstreet butchers are seeing an increase in trade even without this latest scandal.


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## hackneylass2 (8 February 2013)

"I hope these horses are not the ones being bought cheap in the uk - shipped in horrible conditions only to be slaughtered and returned to us in boxes - they could at least of had the decency if this is the case to slaughter them here !!"

At Turners maybe?  

Truth is,  whatever your personal stance over eating horses, we are being told that there is no health risk.

I wouldn't trust what UK sourced horsemeat contained with the farsical passport system here so Gawd only knows whats in US/ Mexican or Eastern European sourced meat.  
Even if the UK passport system was 100% infallible,,  bute  and the like on yards is shared and borrowed and I cant see owners rushing to log those one off doses on their passports.

Someone somewhere is making big bucks out of this at our expense.  But the upshot hopefully is that our local farmers and butchers are going to see a resurgence...it could be the best thing thats happened for a long while and they should capitalise on this.


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## Elf On A Shelf (8 February 2013)

The doctor's told me that I should watch what I eat.

So I've booked tickets to the Grand National.


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## Slightly Foxed (8 February 2013)

The suspicion is that the horses are coming from Argentina, poor sods.

I heard someone from Turners say that horse meat isn't even used in pet food in the UK as people would be too squeamish about it.

I eat very little meat, and none of it processed. I prefer to eat meat once a week and spend a decent amount of money on a decent piece of British beef which ain't cheap but neither should it be. 

British farmers have to adhere to strict welfare standards while others don't. We demand cheap food, so we're importing crap.


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## Slightly Foxed (8 February 2013)

EKW said:



			The doctor's told me that I should watch what I eat.

So I've booked tickets to the Grand National.
		
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Snort!


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## meandmrblue (8 February 2013)

lhotse said:



			There won't be horsemeat in your chicken curry, it will be cat...
		
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Or RAT...


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## amandaco2 (8 February 2013)

False advertising. Which is a type of fraud I'd think.....


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## Doris68 (8 February 2013)

What other checks for DNA are done on "meat"?  Obviously, they've checked for horse, but how extensive are they, ie. some other species already mentioned - but how far do they go??


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## ILuvCowparsely (8 February 2013)

tescoexpress said:



			Is it any stronger than putting horse meat in to beef products? Not at all.

Do the Vegetarian Society scrutinise every delivery in to every food factory which makes vegetarian food? Do they sample every batch of veg mince for animal protein or DNA? Of course they don't! Tesco ready meals were approved by their supply chain quality people, but it still happened. If this was criminal behaviour, they would have made sure that inspectors from government, retailer and independent ones were nowhere to be seen.
		
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 A vegetarian  can tell if they are eating real meat or not.  I for one know what meat taste like.  I was a meat eater for 16 years  I can vouch for the meals I have had are 100% vege.


 Sorry we will have to agree to disagree.   I am sure if in heinsite your ridiculous comment were true it would be in the news specially now.


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## Dolcé (8 February 2013)

Personally I would not choose to eat horsemeat, I eat beef and pork but don't eat lamb.  Maybe that makes me a hypocrite in the eyes of some but it is my personal choice, I don't object in anyway to horsemeat being produced, or even horses being bred to produce meat, I just don't want to eat it.  I doubt I have been affected by this 'scandal', I certainly wouldn't have a health concern about the meat if I had been although the bute issue would certainly change that.  My objection is to a meat that I wouldn't eat being labelled as a meat that I do eat and if I ate processed foods then I would be blurdy furious. I do wonder if the signing of the passport as 'not to enter the food chain' still applies when the horse gets to France, I doubt it!


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## case895 (9 February 2013)

Leviathan said:



			A vegetarian  can tell if they are eating real meat or not.  I for one know what meat taste like.  I was a meat eater for 16 years  I can vouch for the meals I have had are 100% vege.


 Sorry we will have to agree to disagree.   I am sure if in heinsite your ridiculous comment were true it would be in the news specially now.
		
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My comments are not ridiculous and the word is hindsight. The food industry is adept at covering what is in these processed meals. If they had put small amounts of meat in a veg dish you would never know. If it takes a DNA test to establish this, I rather doubt that your taste buds are as sensitive, or maybe you should get a job with the FSA and they bin their laboratory testing!


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## ILuvCowparsely (9 February 2013)

tescoexpress said:



			My comments are not ridiculous and the word is hindsight. The food industry is adept at covering what is in these processed meals. If they had put small amounts of meat in a veg dish you would never know. If it takes a DNA test to establish this, I rather doubt that your taste buds are as sensitive, or maybe you should get a job with the FSA and they bin their laboratory testing!
		
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I do not care how you spell it thank you.

  Ridiculous slandering comment saying the vegetarian society would  not know what is in their foods.

 It is not worth my while continuing this line of conversation.  Unless you can info to back up that statement.
 The vege society has been going a lot longer than you have been alive.  I think enough vege's trust this society a lot more than they can trust your  far fetched comments.


 So do continue with your one man bandit crusade, just do not expect us to listen or believe anything you say .

 Well one things for sure I am sure glad I do not work for Tesco's anymore if your one of their staff,  Wow its gone down hill since I left.


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## Moomin1 (9 February 2013)

Leviathan said:



			I do not care how you spell it thank you.

  Ridiculous slandering comment saying the vegetarian society would  not know what is in their foods.

 It is not worth my while continuing this line of conversation.  Unless you can info to back up that statement.
 The vege society has been going a lot longer than you have been alive.  I think enough vege's trust this society a lot more than they can trust your  far fetched comments.


 So do continue with your one man bandit crusade, just do not expect us to listen or believe anything you say .

 Well one things for sure I am sure glad I do not work for Tesco's anymore if your one of their staff,  Wow its gone down hill since I left.
		
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Blimey this is all a bit OTT isn't it?

I don't think any of us can be 100% certain of anything that goes into food.


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## Moomin1 (9 February 2013)

tescoexpress said:



			I was listening to Jeremy Vine earlier (difficult as always as his phone-in always attracts the nut-jobs) and one person said they were switching to only buying from their local butcher. That made me think as 100m from my local butcher is a "static" (unmoving member of the itinerant community) who breeds ponies and horses (that is to say he has loads and ties them up on grass verges and even the garden of a block of flats next door to the County Police HQ). I have speculated before as to why he has so many (there must be 20 or so at a time) and where they go to.
		
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I think that you are perhaps jumping the gun a bit there!


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## MrPotts (9 February 2013)

Home produce and game - you can't beat it


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## Echo Bravo (9 February 2013)

What you grow yourself or breed you know what goes into them, my potatoes last year were great leeks not so and the carrots none excitant, but that's the way of growing your own.


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## ILuvCowparsely (10 February 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			Blimey this is all a bit OTT isn't it?

I don't think any of us can be 100% certain of anything that goes into food.
		
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What part is over the top?     TescoExpress    saying the Vegetarian Society probably  could put meat additives in the food or me saying .  They wont???
 I am responding to their silly post so no its not OTT.

 I am sure if TescoExpress want to accuse The Vegetarian Society of doing this they would be more than happy to answer them.


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## MillyMoomie (10 February 2013)

There are 4 issues here. 1. If a product is labelled as BEEF, it should be BEEF. Not 100% HORSE. This is fraud.
2. The drive for "cheap" meat/food. People should care what they put into their bodies and be prepared to pay correctly for meat.this involves the cost of rearing correctly. Remember Hugh what's-his-name campaigning against being able to buy a whole chicken for something ridiculous, but it seems the majority just want cheap food.
3.i don't have an issue with horse meat. As long as the welfare standards are good enough. Great Britain export thousands of horses every year for slaughter, same as we do for other livestock. The conditions are not good enough. 
4. This raises questions about what are actually buying and how much we don't know about our food. Yes even vegetarians, unless you only eat what you grow. What chemicals, additives, etc are used in the production of our food?


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## FairyLights (10 February 2013)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/foodandd...ore-contaminated-food-likely-to-be-found.html
I hope they test jelly and sweets, trifles etc [gelatin]as well as pates sausages  bisto granules etc. The list of possible contaminated stuff goes on and on including cakes and biscuits made usingh animal fat.


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## showaddy1 (10 February 2013)

Milliemoomie, these mirror my opinions exactly. I have no issue with eating horse... So ,long as I know I'm eating it. I wonder if as an individual we are now able to sue the manufacturer of these products we have all been eating? Its only a matter of time before someone tries...


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## Milanesa (10 February 2013)

Millymoomie - well said.


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## Alec Swan (10 February 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			.......

I don't think any of us can be 100% certain of anything that goes into food.
		
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I agree with you.  

I worked for a while for the largest producer of turkeys in this country,  and if you knew what went on,  sometimes with the blessing of the FSA,  sometimes with a blind eye turned,  and sometimes with a blatant disregard for the Law,  then you would be staggered.

My employers at that time were generally considered to be amongst the better poultry processors,  so just what the rest were like,  doesn't bare thinking about.  I'm a competent slaughterman,  so my refusal to eat their products isn't from a fluffy or a quaint standpoint.  I wont eat processed poultry,  and if you were aware of what goes on,  neither would you.  

The problem itself,  arises because there is an ever increasing demand for the cutting of costs,  as the producers vie with each other for an expanding share of the market place,  a market place and a customer base which is "Buyer directed".   Consider the single parent girl who's living on benefits,  she has two small children,  and even though she lives life in a frugal fashion,  the pennies matter,  and what she saves on food,  can be used to cloth and keep her children warm,  and however misguided some may say that she is,  she has my sympathy.  

With the cutting of costs,  so there is a lowering of all standards,  and not just the standards which affect the production,  but those of welfare,  and the value,  from an intrinsic standpoint.  I sometimes wonder what we're doing.

Just a thought for those who consider our world,  and what we ingest through our food systems;  "Did you know,  that as we obviously can't predict with any real accuracy,  a long term weather forecast,  and as we apply nitrates to our cereal crops,  and then if we've got it wrong,  and we have prolonged periods of rain,  and if our milling wheat takes off and bolts in its growth,  then we apply growth stunting chemicals to the crop"?  It could be argued that it is a simple business expedience.  It could also be argued that there is in fact a residual effect of the chemical,  and it's damaging us.  It could also be argued that with an expanding world population,  and a shrinking established growing platform,  we have to reach our goals by what ever route we can,  and turn a blind eye to the risks.

Whilst I believe that I see what's wrong,  I've no answers.  

Alec.


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## Alec Swan (10 February 2013)

MillyMoomie said:



			There are 4 issues here. .......

*I accept your points,  without question,  BUT.......*

.......
		
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... if instead of horse meat,  healthy and correctly farmed venison had been substituted,  would you still be up in arms?  To claim meat to be Beef,  when it's Horse or Pork or Venison,  is fraud,  that I accept,  but if we're ignoring of the fraud aspect,  has the fact that we've eaten horse meat actually done us any harm?

Alec.


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## MillyMoomie (10 February 2013)

Alec I don't understand your question. 
As you can see from my post I do not have an issue with horse meat as such as long as .... etc etc etc....
Can you please clarify


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## Alec Swan (10 February 2013)

MillyMoomie said:



			Alec I don't understand your question. 
As you can see from my post I do not have an issue with horse meat as such as long as .... etc etc etc....
Can you please clarify
		
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You've now answered my question,  I think.  Unless I misunderstand you,  your issue *isn't* with the fact that horse meat,  per se has been used,  but that the goods have been misrepresented and sold fraudulently.  Yes?  In which case,  I agree with you.

Alec.


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## ILuvCowparsely (10 February 2013)

MillyMoomie said:



			Yes even vegetarians, unless you only eat what you grow. What chemicals, additives, etc are used in the production of our food?
		
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Most of us vegetarians know exactly what "E" Numbers and additives we are allowed to eat .

http://www.vegsoc.org/page.aspx?pid=728

 I for one always check the label before buying.

http://www.veggieglobal.com/nutrition/non-vegetarian-food-additives.htm





whey. It's now nice and simple and I can just boycott Mars&#8230;
Vegetarian

    Mars (Standard, Duo, Snacksize)
    Snickers (Standard, Duo, Snacksize)
    Galaxy (Milk Chocolate Bars, Snacksize, Ripple, Minstrels)
    Maltesers (Milk, White)
    Revels
    Tracker (Burst of Berries, Zingy Lemon, Roast Nut, Choc Chip)
    Starburst (Chews Original/Strawberry Mix/Sours/Choozers)
    Aquadrops
    Lockets
    Tunes 

Drinks

    Marks Original Refuel Drink
    Galaxy Creamiest
    Maltesers
    Bounty
    Starburst Banana/Orange and Pineapple
    Twix Super Thick Shake
    Moment du Chocolat 

Ice Cream

    None 

Not Vegetarian

Everything else, which includes things like:
Confectionery

    Bounty Dark / Milk
    Celebrations
    Flyte
    Galaxy Promises Cocoa Crisp/Caramel Crunch/Roast Hazelnut/Rich Coffee
    M&M's All Varieties
    Mars Delight
    Mars Planets
    Milky Way / Crispy rolls / Magic Stars
    Skittles Sours / Rainbow
    Topic
    Twix 

Drinks

    Galaxy Hot Chocolate
    Starburst Strawberry/Raspberry
    M&M's shake
    Moment du Chocolat with marshmallows 

Ice Cream

    All of them, including: Bounty Ice Cream
    Galaxy Caramel Swirl Ice Cream / Vanilla / Triple Choc
    Maltesers Ice Cream
    Mars Ice Cream / Xtra Ice Cream
    Snickers Ice Cream / Xtra Ice Cream


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## firm (10 February 2013)

Millymoonie I agree with most of what you've said except the issue of people wanting cheap food being to blame in these particular cases. Supermarkets and fast food restaurants will want to maximise profits no matter what the price of the end product so they will always be pushing producers and suppliers to reduce their prices. They (supermarkets and restaurants) have the responsibility to ensure that they don't sacrifice the quality of what they are being supplied with by their demand to maximise their profits.    

The bizarre thing is the meat in both the Findus case and the Irish case (if what I read is true) had been through 5 or 6 hands before it would even reach the consumer. Presumably each company that handled these meat products had to make a profit?  It does not seem on the face of it a good way to keep cost downs and ensure the quality/safety of the end product. The guy from Morrisons say they have their own abatoirs and producers, that seems a better way?      
However I do wish people would buy better meat and spend less on sweets, crisps and fizzy drinks if only for the sake of better animal welfare.


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## Landcruiser (10 February 2013)

Interesting article on the subject from WHW.
Just for the record, another lifelong veggie here, thank goodness. But if I had to eat meat it would be meat I'd reared, shot, or fully knew the provenance and appropriate welfare standards of (bag grammar!)

http://www.worldhorsewelfare.org/information/latest-news?view=show&content_id=5424


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## windand rain (11 February 2013)

I am more surprised that there is actually any meat in the rubbish mashed meat goods never mind 60-100% 
The issue isnt the use of horse meat in both and pork in halal meat it is the fraud Officially in France horsemeat is very much more expensive than beef so I dont get it it must be some sort of blackmarket meat

I am not bothered about it being horsemeat just the traceability I dont eat mushed up meat anyway I even mince my own minced beef for sauces and pies I hate beefburgers and always have. I think I probably have eaten cat though I once had a chicken dish form a chinese restaurant that was a distinctly glutinous and jelly like very not chicken texture didnt get it there again and couldnt eat it after the first mouthful


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## maccachic (11 February 2013)

Just like processed horse feeds they can put anything in those mushed up things and you aren't any the wiser.  I stay away from prossesed foods / feeds as much as I can but its hard with so much processing going on these days.


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## hackneylass2 (11 February 2013)

My view Re the the recent debacle and points raised.

 Mislabelling is fraud yes  and I would be as aghast as any Muslim or Jewish person who had eaten pork if I found out I had eaten horse. Its my perogative.

Would it have done me any harm if I had eaten horseburger or lasagne?  Well as the powers that be only test1.86% of horses going through UK abattoirs for Bute, and I have no idea what tests are done on meat in the EU or elsewhere,  so I would be worried.

Welfare is a big issue,  well for me it is  we seem to be suspect of foreign attitudes to animal welfare but the recent evidence from Turners shows we cant get it right here.  How many on this forum have sent a horse to Turners and would do so again if they were not present? It would be interesting to see if anyone answers this yes.

Lastly, I want to eat prime meat, not the largely sick and sorry creatures that must form a large proportion of equines going to meet their end for the food chain. I will stick to British beef and support local farmers.

As for folks on low incomes buying ready meals, Ive been in this situation myself and its still far cheaper to make meals using butchers meat than processed junk. If theres more than a tablespoon full of meat in the average ready meal Ill eat my cat   Believe me if youre REALLY  skint you can work  out in no time how far half a kilo of mince will go...and you can stretch it a loooonnng way.  Ready meals and processed foods are largely laziness imo. 

Theres more to this Im sure as its said where theres a hook theres a crook. Cheval may be more expensive on the continent but what price the UK horses? From what Ive seen the majority have not been farm bred for the table they are the old, the sick, the injured and the LOU creatures. So much for haute cuisine a la Francais.


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## Beausmate (11 February 2013)

windand rain said:



			I think I probably have eaten cat though I once had a chicken dish form a chinese restaurant that was a distinctly glutinous and jelly like very not chicken texture didnt get it there again and couldnt eat it after the first mouthful
		
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More likely eel-apparently cat is a bit like rabbit in texture.  Yuk.

I wonder just how cheap this dodgy horsemeat is?  Each time it's changed hands, it's making money-but it still ends up in the low budget crap.  Someone from one of the companies involved (forget who now) said it (the contamination if you like) wasn't accidental.  I'm inclined to believe him.  At some point, someone would have seen a horse carcass going where a beef carcass should have been-and said nothing.


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## hackneylass2 (11 February 2013)

Chicken meat for the Chinese takeaway market is usually processed, rather like the reformed ham you can buy at supermarkets. Chopped and shaped is the usual term.


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## Luci07 (11 February 2013)

So today they showed the horrendous journey that the meat went through before ending up in the UK. I can't remember the entire details but it was something like 4 different countries before it ended up here. 

I am watching all the news carefully and have a very very strong suspicion that we really are being drip fed the truth for this. Now the media is saying that organised crime is involved. There seems to be a complete blanket on admitting that UK horses ended up in the food chain at this time.

I don't like the idea of eating horse, freely admit that is hypocritical of me as I happily eat chicken, beef etc. If someone else wants to, then that is their choice. I do not eat as much meat as I used to so that I can pay for better quality meat and mostly use my local butcher. I have always felt that you need to respect what you eat and that an animal should have a good level of care and slaughter. I can't be 100% sure I have always eaten properly but I have tried.

I was being quite self righteous about this drama to start with as do not eat processed food as a rule (ha ha, does not effect me!). Till my good friends pointed out (thanks guys!) that at any event we have been to, I happily scoff down what we call a dirt burger after competing so its highly likely I too have eaten horse.

I took my own food with me yesterday when we went out with the horses!


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## BigBuck's (11 February 2013)

As well as all the excellent points made already about provenance, welfare, mis-labelling fraud, you get what you pay for where meat is concerned etc, I would also be concerned that there will be long-term welfare implications for our horses, as if the tested meat has been found to contain traces of bute and our so-called equine passport legislation is patently failing in its job, then the easy answer to prevent the risk to humans from bute inadvertently or criminally entering the foodchain is to ban bute across the EU.


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## Milanesa (11 February 2013)

I am awaiting the results of the testing later this week, but I don't think the horses in question are going to be from the uk, Europe rears horses for this purpose and I think this will be more the case- but I could be wrong. Horses here are generally the older/ ill/ lame ones that go to the knackers yard, not the best breeds for meat production I would think. I don't think bute ban will be even contemplated- it shouldn't be if the govt have any sense. What needs to be investigated is why are we all being lied to and who ultimately have authorised horse meat to be used in place of beef and has not been found out until now- !


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## BigBuck's (11 February 2013)

I hope you're right, Milanesa, but given the history of the EU's efforts to ban bute in all food-production animals (which under their guidelines includes horses), I fear you might have more faith in either the 'sense' or the clout of our Government to resist if the subject is raised again, given that a scandal like this weakens our counter-position.


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## Alec Swan (12 February 2013)

Milanesa said:



			I am awaiting the results of the testing later this week, but I don't think the horses in question are going to be from the uk, Europe rears horses for this purpose and I think this will be more the case- but I could be wrong. Horses here are generally the older/ ill/ lame ones that go to the knackers yard, not the best breeds for meat production I would think. I don't think bute ban will be even contemplated- it shouldn't be if the govt have any sense. What needs to be investigated is why are we all being lied to and who ultimately have authorised horse meat to be used in place of beef and has not been found out until now- !
		
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A good post,  and I agree.  I'd add that where horses are reared,  with the same attention as we would give to cattle,  I'd be very surprised to hear that Bute was used,  on a particularly large scale,  so I think that the risk of its inclusion is very slight.

What I find surprising is that our food retailers,  Tescos and others,  have been so slow to test,  or to get assurances from THEIR suppliers that when they claim that beef is the ingredient,  then that's what it is,  and not horse.  The question of horse meat being in our processed foods has been about for some while,  certainly long enough for in-house enquiries to be made.  I suspect a degree of complicity.

Alec.


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## Vintage (12 February 2013)

I am doubting that the meat will contain much Bute at all, I've heard they're mostly going to have been Europe horses, mostly from/processed in Romania.  After seeing a lot of the evidence released to the public of the conditions many of these horses have to endure, I'm doubting they will have been given Bute (though of course it depends where they came from)

The whole business is very sad.  I don't eat any beef products (or, packaged as 'beef' should I say!) as I don't like the taste,  but I feel sad that it seems that many, many horses included in these products must have suffered.

The whole thing is shocking and it makes me wonder if horse will become a part of the UK menu.  This has happened before with Salami products which didn't cause much fuss at all.  The majority of the UK have been against eating horse, and now it seems many have been unknowingly doing just that.  Very sad.


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## Billabongchick (12 February 2013)

Let's face it; if you have eaten in a restaurant and had a pizza with meat topping for example chances are it will have contained horse meat. It doesn't necessarily have to be ready meal cheap rubbish (I won't eat them) and I'm willing to bet that packs of minced beef are also not 100% beef. It's the welfare, live transport and bute issues that concern me and the fact that we have been duped.

I took my passport with me to vet yesterday (she was quite surprised and asked why I had it with me so I pointed out I hadn't had a horse for 10 years so wasn't sure what was meant to be recorded on it). She then said she would sign our mare out of the human food chain (I assume due to the steroids she has been on) but then didn't seem able to find the page in the Weatherbys passport to do so. I checked it when I got home and nothing has been amended in it and I too struggled to find where it should be signed other than by myself? Can anyone clarify this?

Our horse will never go for meat (she is our little sausage and not to be made into someone elses fry-up sausage..) but if the vet was unsure where to sign then I'd imagine that the drugs adminstered and not recorded issue must be huge.


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## Vintage (12 February 2013)

I agree,   I feel sorry for many who go out eating who've likely had this.  I hope this points people back in the direction of local butchers.

I'm unsure about the Wetherby's passports as none of mine have had them, however in most passports it's usually one of the very last 3 pages a small section to sign if they are or are not intended for meat.


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## Beausmate (12 February 2013)

Billabongchick said:



			I took my passport with me to vet yesterday (she was quite surprised and asked why I had it with me so I pointed out I hadn't had a horse for 10 years so wasn't sure what was meant to be recorded on it). She then said she would sign our mare out of the human food chain (I assume due to the steroids she has been on) but then didn't seem able to find the page in the Weatherbys passport to do so. I checked it when I got home and nothing has been amended in it and I too struggled to find where it should be signed other than by myself? Can anyone clarify this?
		
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I'd be more inclined to take my horse's passport, rather than my own. 

Sounds like yours doesn't have the relevant section in it. Simple to sort, just give Weatherby's a ring and they will tell you where to send it and how much it will cost to have the right bit put in.  Cost me about a tenner, but that was a few years ago.


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## Billabongchick (12 February 2013)

Beausmate said:



			I'd be more inclined to take my horse's passport, rather than my own. 

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Ha ha very funny! I'm sure her pic would be better than mine if they had photos...

Well she is with us for life and if anything happens it will be cremation even if it is expensive as per my first horse when I lost her to colic. So I won't be chasing it up particularly as only just paid to have details transferred to us anyway but I was interested from a topical point of view what course the vets would take re passport signing.


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## christine48 (12 February 2013)

4x4 said:



			Surely it's better too eat dead animals than waste them - all drugs are supposed to be on the passports.
		
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Our vet has never asked for the passport when prescribing brute.


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## Beausmate (12 February 2013)

Billabongchick said:



			Well she is with us for life and if anything happens it will be cremation even if it is expensive as per my first horse when I lost her to colic. So I won't be chasing it up particularly as only just paid to have details transferred to us anyway but I was interested from a topical point of view what course the vets would take re passport signing.
		
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I'm surprised they didn't put it in when the details were changed.  I sent mine off when the whole passport thing became law (hahaha) and I didn't want a fine.  Dunno why I bothered now, none of the 'powers that be' seem to give much of a toss. 

My French horse had nothing in his passport with regard to an 'opt-out' either.


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