# Convicted London rioters should loose all benefits



## irish_only (10 August 2011)

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/7337
 Except it should be ALL of them


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## ladyt25 (10 August 2011)

Yeo they should lose benefits AND they possessions - iPods, Phones etc etc. They should also be made to do community service - that being tidying up the mess they made AND having to rebuild the buildings they destroyed however long that may take them. Funny isn't it these 'disadvantaged' teenagers manage to organise these riots on their expensive phones and via websites for which one assumes they either have computers or again are doing this on their iphones/blackberries etc!!!


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## BBH (10 August 2011)

Not sure if its been accepted as no message to say completed etc ?


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## Zebedee (10 August 2011)

The E-Petitions site seems to have crashed due to 'Unusually high demand'!!
Wonder why that could be..............!


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## MerrySherryRider (10 August 2011)

The first lot of defendants to pass through the courts were in the main, not unemployed. If memory serves me right there was a graphic designer, a PHD graduate and several other professional men in their 20's.
Even more scary...


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## DragonSlayer (10 August 2011)

horserider said:



			The first lot of defendants to pass through the courts were in the main, not unemployed. If memory serves me right there was a graphic designer, a PHD graduate and several other professional men in their 20's.
Even more scary...
		
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...and a TEACHING ASSISTANT!!!!!

~Jaw drops~


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## ladyt25 (10 August 2011)

ladyt25 said:



			Yeo they should lose benefits AND they possessions - iPods, Phones etc etc. They should also be made to do community service - that being tidying up the mess they made AND having to rebuild the buildings they destroyed however long that may take them. Funny isn't it these 'disadvantaged' teenagers manage to organise these riots on their expensive phones and via websites for which one assumes they either have computers or again are doing this on their iphones/blackberries etc!!!
		
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Erm - should read before I post my replies - I mean "Yes" and "lose benefits and THEIR possessions"!


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## ladyt25 (10 August 2011)

horserider said:



			The first lot of defendants to pass through the courts were in the main, not unemployed. If memory serves me right there was a graphic designer, a PHD graduate and several other professional men in their 20's.
Even more scary...
		
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Well, I sincerely hope they lose their jobs as a result. Disgraceful. I can't sign the petition at work as page is blocked.


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## irish_only (10 August 2011)

Just found three more petitions we ought to sign, and add to facebook.

Rubber bullets  - http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/8308
Use benefits to help victims - http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/7648
Water Cannon - http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/8261


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## Magicmillbrook (10 August 2011)

Signed.  I this is totaly disgusting.  We are all having a tough time at the moment.  I just dont understand how destroying and looting prooves any point, just costs everyone a whole load more money.  Bring back national service I say, teach the little twits some repsect for others and themselves.


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## cefyl (10 August 2011)

Magicmillbrook said:



			Signed.  I this is totaly disgusting.  We are all having a tough time at the moment.  I just dont understand how destroying and looting prooves any point, just costs everyone a whole load more money.  Bring back national service I say, teach the little twits some repsect for others and themselves.
		
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National Service indeed, and bring back teachers ability in schools to instill discipline, from primary school upwards.  They get away with murder in schools and continue to do so when they leave.

Use the water cannons with smart water and ruin their expensive designer clothes and trainers they are all wearing from the start (not so poor are they so they cannot afford £75 hoodies and £80 trainers).

They are moaning the youths are "underpriviliged", poor communities, no youth clubs, nothing to do, no propects, poverty level.  Bulls*@! What about the UK following WW1 and WW11.  Hardly properous times but there was no rioting or looting.  This is just an excuse because they know they can and nobody will stop them.  If the police so much as lay a finger on one of them it will be "police brutality".  Where is the Army.  The UK Gov is quick enough to send them into foreign countries to restore law and order - oh of course those foreign countries have huge oil reserves.


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## onceuponatime (10 August 2011)

A rioter just about to speak on BBC1 .... this should be interesting.  Hope he choses his words carefully or he could be lynched on his departure from the building!


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## onceuponatime (10 August 2011)

Ah - he's not in the  building - pre recorded.  Aggressive shopping!  Well that puts a whole new slant on it.  I thought aggressive shopping was going into town on s Saturday when all and sundry are there and fighting your way to the meat counter!  Now I know it means call all yer mates innit and get and loot n' set fire to anyone elses property you can find!


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## abaddon_1974 (10 August 2011)

Rubber bullets and water cannon were authorised today, so we don't need the petition  for those.
I would think that the teaching assistant will be jobless very soon as it will not look good for the school they are at.
Hopefully the rain will put them off at least in Nottinghamshire tonight, not sure what the weather is like in the other rioting areas.


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## Hairy Old Cob (10 August 2011)

All down to DISCIPLINE & RESPECT they dont have any


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## Kat (10 August 2011)

Haven't you heard? It is all our fault, not the fault of the poor little darlings out setting fire to stuff..........


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## Trakehner (11 August 2011)

How evil and non-understanding....racist too!

Looked at the photos of the little darlings in the Sun...Hmmm, seems to be a typical rioter description.  Male and a race that must not be noticed...the Voldemort effect in the news articles.  You're racist if you notice just who is the typical rioter/thief/arsonist/criminal.

Don't worry, by the time they hit the Bailey the judges will make sure nothing happens to them...they are the victims after all.  Being wealthy horse owners, we just don't understand.


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## Tinkerbee (11 August 2011)

Have they honestly got a spelling mistake in something they want to be taken seriously by the Govt.??


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## LittleBlackMule (11 August 2011)

Tinkerbee said:



			Have they honestly got a spelling mistake in something they want to be taken seriously by the Govt.??
		
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Hmmm... I noticed that too...  maybe it's a scam to find out our details!


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## irish_only (11 August 2011)

Tinkerbee said:



			Have they honestly got a spelling mistake in something they want to be taken seriously by the Govt.??
		
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I know!! Copied and pasted, then posted before I realised. groan.


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## Miss L Toe (11 August 2011)

DragonSlayer said:



			...and a TEACHING ASSISTANT!!!!!

~Jaw drops~
		
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I am not totally surprised that  a teaching assistant has been arrested or anyone else, but why are they back on the streets? If in a riot and arrested, they should be locked up, otherwise they will be back at work tomorrow, and out on the streets again at night.

I don't think the army want a loads of thugs working for them as conscripts, and my experience of "volunteers" also known as the young unfortunates or the young unemployable, is that they only do the kind of work they want to do, and at a work rate that no good employer would find acceptable. They have to be supervised, so that removes a capable person from the available workforce.

I am sure there are loads of young black men who want to work, and eventually they will get qualifications and a job, but there are loads of yobs of all colours who only want to be part of the "scene" and moan and groan about how the world treats them badly, they take what they want, and these  riots are just new opportunities for them to extend their criminal activities.


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## Faithkat (11 August 2011)

I suspect that person is now an unemployed ex-teaching assistant  . . . .  prat . . . 

Just signed the e-petition.  It's up to almost 98,000 signatures now and if it gets to 100,000 it is referred to parliament for possible debate . 

  . . . . keep signing, people!


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## Tinkerbee (11 August 2011)

Surely there is no point in signing it? If it gets to 100,000 whoever it is will read it and go "Loose their benefits? What does that..even...what?". How CAN they debate/enact it as it is just nonsense?


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## onceuponatime (11 August 2011)

I heard on the radio this morning that the petition  for rioters to lose their benefits was presented to Parliament but that was all.  

Have heard plenty on the news tonight about the rioters who were arrested appearing in court but have not heard what sentences have been imposed!  Anyone know?????


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## irish_only (11 August 2011)

Tinkerbee said:



			Surely there is no point in signing it? If it gets to 100,000 whoever it is will read it and go "Loose their benefits? What does that..even...what?". How CAN they debate/enact it as it is just nonsense?
		
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What are e-petitions?
e-petitions is an easy way for you to influence government policy in the UK. You can create an e-petition about anything that the government is responsible for and if it gets at least 100,000 signatures, it will be eligible for debate in the House of Commons.

It is now on 103,342


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## SonnysHumanSlave (12 August 2011)

In the news this morning there's alot more about the convictions of looters. 
They've come down hard, someone that stole bottled water has gotten 6 months!! 
Again alot of them are more privileged kids, and alot have degrees. :/


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## irish_only (12 August 2011)

It's on 154,00 now. 
I know it is not realistic to withdraw money as they will only steal to live as can't imagine most of them actively seeking work, and those with convictions will be undesirable, but at least the Govt will see that it is something that motivates the general public and hopefully give them the balls to start getting tough.


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## Miss L Toe (12 August 2011)

To be honest, the only way is to report individuals who are claiming benefits and who do not work, just give their name to the Benefits office, or the VAT people , and hope that you have given them enough evidence to make it worthwhile.


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## Ottinmeg (12 August 2011)

onceuponatime said:



			Have heard plenty on the news tonight about the rioters who were arrested appearing in court but have not heard what sentences have been imposed!  Anyone know?????
		
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The 11 yr olds walked free,the 15 yr olds were given 18 hours community service etc...


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## onceuponatime (12 August 2011)

Ottinmeg said:



			The 11 yr olds walked free,the 15 yr olds were given 18 hours community service etc...
		
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I understand it is hard to determine what sentence an 11 year old should get but there has to be some sort of punishment - not just let the them walk free!  I also heard today from a friend of mine then when walking from the court with the father he (the father) made all sorts of vile jestures infront of cameras and the child followed with a torrent of abuse.  They should have both been turned around and marched back into the court room.  As for the 15 year old - a spell in a dentention centre wouldn't have gone amiss!

The trouble is that as much as David Cameron has said 'they will pay' - how will they pay and who will decide?  A judge?  Someone who has never suffered the loss that some of these people who are victims of these riots have!  Someone who has never had their family run down by irresponsible scum as they tried to guard their property.  Someone who has never had their child pulled of their bike beaten and then robbed.  Someone who has never had a member of their family shot.  Someone who has never had a member of their family beaten to death for trying to put out a fire.  Someone who has never lost their home/all their possesions due to the action of mindless lowlife and so the list goes on!   Maybe Parliament should be made up partially of people who have suffered at the hands of others -  those who know what real pain is and know that time maybe a great healer but there are some things that are never forgotten!  

If capital punishment had been restored and a few examples had been made - I am sure 'normal service would be resumed!'


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## Sleighfarer (13 August 2011)

onceuponatime said:



			I understand it is hard to determine what sentence an 11 year old should get but there has to be some sort of punishment - not just let the them walk free!  I also heard today from a friend of mine then when walking from the court with the father he (the father) made all sorts of vile jestures infront of cameras and the child followed with a torrent of abuse.  They should have both been turned around and marched back into the court room.  As for the 15 year old - a spell in a dentention centre wouldn't have gone amiss!

The trouble is that as much as David Cameron has said 'they will pay' - how will they pay and who will decide?  A judge?  Someone who has never suffered the loss that some of these people who are victims of these riots have!  Someone who has never had their family run down by irresponsible scum as they tried to guard their property.  Someone who has never had their child pulled of their bike beaten and then robbed.  Someone who has never had a member of their family shot.  Someone who has never had a member of their family beaten to death for trying to put out a fire.  Someone who has never lost their home/all their possesions due to the action of mindless lowlife and so the list goes on!   Maybe Parliament should be made up partially of people who have suffered at the hands of others -  those who know what real pain is and know that time maybe a great healer but there are some things that are never forgotten!  

If capital punishment had been restored and a few examples had been made - I am sure 'normal service would be resumed!'
		
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Are you seriously suggesting that somebody should be hanged for stealing a plasma TV?


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## onceuponatime (13 August 2011)

Are your seriously thick or just plain bloody stupid???????

Compared to what some people lost the stealing of a plasma tv pales into insignificance.  Of course I don't bloody well think someone should be hanged for stealing a tv - moron - but I do think they should be made an example of given the circumstances and I do think by bringing back capital punishment we would not have to suffer at the hands of these low life scum.


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## zefragile (13 August 2011)

onceuponatime said:



			Are your seriously thick or just plain bloody stupid???????

Compared to what some people lost the stealing of a plasma tv pales into insignificance.  Of course I don't bloody well think someone should be hanged for stealing a tv - moron - but I do think they should be made an example of given the circumstances and I do think by bringing back capital punishment we would not have to suffer at the hands of these low life scum.
		
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How pleasant.

Pretty sure capital punishment doesn't act as a deterrent, but you carry on.


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## Honey08 (13 August 2011)

onceuponatime said:



			Are your seriously thick or just plain bloody stupid???????

Compared to what some people lost the stealing of a plasma tv pales into insignificance.  Of course I don't bloody well think someone should be hanged for stealing a tv - moron - but I do think they should be made an example of given the circumstances and I do think by bringing back capital punishment we would not have to suffer at the hands of these low life scum.
		
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How funny!  Weren't you the one just saying that the kid and his parent should have been marched into court for giving a torrent of abuse - then two posts later are calling someone seriously thick, plain bliddy stupid and a moron!


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## EAST KENT (14 August 2011)

The death penalty ,if brought back,would certainly be a deterrent to murderers.At the moment ,for killing someone you get out after seven years. The threat of an equal penalty in my opinion would curb what is today quite a commonplace crime.
   As for these scrotes looting..a bit of demeaning corporal punishment fits the bill.


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## tristar (14 August 2011)

take the benefits away? what will that solve? a lot of these people have 
 never known how to behave or lost hope, who's fault is that?

education, education, education,   tony blair

i am sure inside everyone there is some good or more importantly talent, 

this is purely criminality,  david cameron


yes but who are the real criminals here, or should i say the idiots?


the example and action of the people at the top are the first place to look before blaming the population, they have the resources, and the power to act, they set the example, they have wasted the finances of the country, and are clueless about education and devoid of any intelligent notions of how they personally have bought this about and of course have no idea how to rectify the situation.

when in doubt blame the victim


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## EAST KENT (14 August 2011)

The fault lies with stupid laws brought in so that both parents and teachers cannot instill discipline,that is when all hope of any respect for others went out the window.


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## onceuponatime (14 August 2011)

Honey08 said:



			How funny!  Weren't you the one just saying that the kid and his parent should have been marched into court for giving a torrent of abuse - then two posts later are calling someone seriously thick, plain bliddy stupid and a moron!
		
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Calling some thick or plain bloody stupid goes nowhere near to an 11 year old calling the camera men c**** and telling them to ******* off!!!! Neither does it hold to the fathers gesticulations!!!  You are as bad as the plasma tv situation!


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## zefragile (14 August 2011)

onceuponatime said:



			Calling some thick or plain bloody stupid goes nowhere near to an 11 year old calling the camera men c**** and telling them to ******* off!!!! Neither does it hold to the fathers gesticulations!!!  You are as bad as the plasma tv situation!
		
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You need to calm down


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## Flashpaddler (14 August 2011)

I was wondering......if a looter/rioter is convicted and they subsequently turn out to be a member of an equestrian body (BE, BSJA, BD, BHS, etc) should they receive a lifetime ban?

Would get my vote!


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## onceuponatime (14 August 2011)

Yes of course!

And as for calming down - I really am insensed at these appalling actions but some people have short memories.  I have a friend in Ealing who business was affected by the riots and I feel for her and her family.   I have another friend in Clapham who could see the riots from their window and they were terrified!  Calm down?  I have a right to voice how I feel and if I have offended .......


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## HashRouge (14 August 2011)

This thread got me thinking about benefits in general and has made me wonder why there isn't some sort of "condition" attached to receiving benefits, such as a set number of hours per week spent working at some sort of charity, like daycare centres for the elderly and so on? Surely that would help to solve several problems at once, getting people out of the house and "working", even if they can't find a proper, paying job; and helping to preserve charities and insulate them from the cuts.


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## Sleighfarer (14 August 2011)

Onceuponatime - You have offended me, actually. But let's stick to the thread in hand. 

What exactly are you proposing that we use capital punishment for?


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## tristar (14 August 2011)

hashrouge, they do that in usa i believe its called workfare.

if all that energy could be put into something constructive.

you only have to watch young horses playing all the time to know that young people have the same life force drives that need direction, it seems it bursts out in the wrong way if there are no outlets.

these youngsters need to be valued as human from an early age and their abilities uncovered and channelled towards a future in which they can see they have a stake in society, as it is they  are like undisciplined animals with no boundaries, and sadly no self esteem.


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## onceuponatime (14 August 2011)

Seafarer said:



			Onceuponatime - You have offended me, actually. But let's stick to the thread in hand. 

What exactly are you proposing that we use capital punishment for?
		
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There is an old saying 'an eye for and eye, a tooth for a tooth' etc., if someone goes out with the intent to kill or causes death by destruction (as with the three men in Birmingham, them man in Ealing, the man shot in Croydon) then capital punishment should be used.  You have obviously never had someone very close to you killed by their neighbour in a senseless, meaningless manor and sat through a court case, seen the murderer convicted to seven years imprisonment and released in five?  This is one of the reasons I feel so strongly.   I do not think that someone who has killed with intent should be allowed to serve their sentence in the 'University for Criminals' and then walk our streets again.  

Regarding those who have looted and set fire to property/beaten and stolen from others and clearly from some of the photos shown on the TV are VERY pleased with their lot - I am not saying that capital punishment befits the crime but there are other ways of making examples of these individuals.  As this post began - remove their benefits, make sure they can never sign on again, if they are council tenants - they lose their homes, put a curfew on them - don't let them walk the streets at nights.  You can't imprison all of them there is not enough room.  If we are going to harp on about the 'plasma tv' thread - why make a joke of it?  At the end of the day we. the taxpayers bear the brunt of all this!

To most of us the re-introduction of capital punishment would never affect our lives so why would we worry?  Forensics have moved on!  There are ways of proving beyond reasonable doubt whether someone is guilty or not.


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## perfect11s (16 August 2011)

EAST KENT said:



			The fault lies with stupid laws brought in so that both parents and teachers cannot instill discipline,that is when all hope of any respect for others went out the window.
		
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 the fault lies with the hand winging leftys that have done as much as possible to encorage a feckless srounging underclass and  as much as possible to undermine law and order, self respect and pride  and comunity... from buldozing  houses and building tower blocks to attacking grammer school education  the over generous welfare payments    they have done untold harm to the country just to further themselves.. labour scum  vile self serving hipcrites ....


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## smiffyimp (16 August 2011)

itll never happen - soft touch Britain will probably pay them for doing it!


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## Honey08 (16 August 2011)

onceuponatime said:



			Calling some thick or plain bloody stupid goes nowhere near to an 11 year old calling the camera men c**** and telling them to ******* off!!!! Neither does it hold to the fathers gesticulations!!!  You are as bad as the plasma tv situation!
		
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I'm not saying it was.  I thought those people were awful.  I'm just saying that you're not coming across as whiter than white either.  Everything that happened was sickening and disgusting.  We're all appalled, but insulting other people on forums doesn't do anything.  It just makes you look stoopid and aggressive.


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## Tiny Fluffy Coblet (16 August 2011)

e wonder why there isn't some sort of "condition" attached to receiving benefits, such as a set number of hours per week spent working at some sort of charity, like daycare centres for the elderly and so on?
		
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Unfortunately they actively discourage charity work while on benefits. When I first came out of uni I could not get a job (and I was applying for everything from office work to scrubbing floors), I was on benefits for 6 months. All the jobs I was applying for seemed to require more experience than I had and I thought some sort of charity based work would do well to bulk out my CV and give something back for what I was getting. Unfortunately I can't remember the figures but there was a limit of something like 5 hours a week on how much you could do, not enough to boost a CV.


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## stacey_lou (16 August 2011)

Magicmillbrook said:



			Signed.  I this is totaly disgusting.  We are all having a tough time at the moment.  I just dont understand how destroying and looting prooves any point, just costs everyone a whole load more money.  Bring back national service I say, teach the little twits some repsect for others and themselves.
		
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they dont care most of them dont work to pay taxes anyway so its no skin of their noses. Though I wonder if they ever heard the term you dont **** on your own doorstep! 

Ungreatfull little ********ers!!!


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## onceuponatime (16 August 2011)

JessicA 555 - WELL WRITTEN.

Honey08 - 'Stoopid'?  Aggressive?  Not me!  Your really do have the wrong person there.  But I cannot be bothered and don't see why I should justify myself.


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## Tinkerbee (17 August 2011)

Irish only- I understand the concept of the e petition but this was contains a basic spelling error which completely alters the meaning of the whole thing. Even if every mp agreed that they should LOSE their benefits, that is not what is up for debate...


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## woodtiger (17 August 2011)

Tony Blair has devalued the British education system so much that an undergraduate degree is essentially worthless (BSc Surf Studies anyone?) and teachers too scared to teach, not to mention the fact that frequently their students speak fifty different languages, english being their second tongue.  Pupils aspire to X Factor rather than becoming a pilot or a fireman; apprenticeships were phased out almost entirely: girls wanted to become a WAG and boys wanted to become a footballer.  Aspirations are replaced by human rights.

People have been given everything so have nothing to work towards  (how many times have you heard of people choosing benefits over working as they are better off this way?) regardless of whether they are from this country or from anywhere else in the world.  

If I were in charge, I would be put the rioters in orange jumpsuits and chains and have them rebuild the communities they desecrated.  I would introduce corporal, not capital punishment: if a lot of them had been given a good smack bottom as a child, they would have had a little more respect in their elders instilled.  The trouble is they often have no father's and behave as such because they can.  I really don't know what I would do to stop girls from having babies just to get a flat:  take away the flat?  take away the child?
Maybe a legal age for parenting?

There would be a two child policy:  replace yourselves.  More children than that and there would be fines, and parents would have to be responsible for their children behaviour.  These families of fourteen childreen paid for by us taxpayers would be a thing of the past, as would the hit-and-run asylum seeker living an a £2m North London mansion.  I expect the asylum seekers would be seeking refuge somewhere else.  I would certainly have the message that the UK is not somewhere to escape to put out there, and the human rights legislation would be overturned.  Human Rights would be for those decent law-abiding, tax-paying citizens.

Teachers would be given back their authority and policemen given walking boots and set to patrol on foot/bike.  As for benefits, well if you are able to work, then get on and work:  none of these disability and incapacity benefits which decentivise people.  If I really had to pay benefits, then there would be enough to live on basically, not more. 

Anyway, that would be my personal idea for utopia.  End of rant.


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## badattitude (17 August 2011)

Woodtiger you make many good points with which I entirely agree. The crux of the matter is that in the last twenty or thirty years people have begun to believe there is no consequence for their actions and thus have no respect or regard for authority.
  In addition, modern British society tries to give everything to everyone. Take education for example. Woodtiger is entirely right about degrees. They used to be something to strive for, that were offered to people who had achieved excellence in their previous results. This did not stop the clever but underpriviledged child, grants were always available and probably of less burden than the current system. But even to go to a polytechnic and do a vocational qualification, you needed to achieve certain standards. Obviously not everyone is clever enough to do a degree, just as not everyone is able to run the 100m in ten flat. Dumbing down the system so that is 'available to all' breeds a conception that all things should be available to all. Before you had to work hard before and during. You were flung out if you could not achieve certain targets. You had to take responsibility for most of your learning, continuous assesment was originally introduced as CSE level to help those with lesser abilities, now it is in place for virtually all exams apparently to take pressure off those who find exams difficult. Surely one should learn at school that to achieve excellence in any field, eventually you will be tested and the education system should prepare them for that?
   At school now, virtually all responsibility has been removed from the parents and pupils and instead been dumped on the teachers, who, in return, have had their powers to run their own classrooms diminished by the goverment and the polictically correct. 
  The British system is breeding anarchists. I would have thought that much was obvious and these riots are a culmination of that  system. A generation or two with no  jobs, no money, no future and belief that they are entitled to have what everyother person has.


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## SusannaF (17 August 2011)

woodtiger said:



			T frequently their students speak fifty different languages, english being their second tongue.
		
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This isn't a bad thing! God, we need more people who can speak more languages. Modern languages are in massive decline in the UK.


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## badattitude (17 August 2011)

Before I came to this country, I learned the language. Not perfectly but in satisfactory fashion. No one has ever had to 'dumb down' or 'make allowances' for me. I expected when i came here that English would be the language of choice, christianity (predominately Cof E) would be the religion, and that those who lived here would abide by the English laws. That I would have to abide by the laws and culture of the country I was visiting.  This was how it worked when I lived in the USA and other European countries and certainly how it is in the far east. I have not been able to understand, when English is the language of the internet and therefore the most useful of all languages for a non British person to speak, which is widely recognised outside the UK,  that here, it seems to be more important to be 'multicutural' than to have any identity as a nation. I do not understand why foreign nationals can come here and dictate what they will and will not tolerate, this does not happen in other places I have lived.


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## Sleighfarer (17 August 2011)

badattitude said:



			Before I came to this country, I learned the language. Not perfectly but in satisfactory fashion. No one has ever had to 'dumb down' or 'make allowances' for me. I expected when i came here that English would be the language of choice, christianity (predominately Cof E) would be the religion, and that those who lived here would abide by the English laws. That I would have to abide by the laws and culture of the country I was visiting.  This was how it worked when I lived in the USA and other European countries and certainly how it is in the far east. I have not been able to understand, when English is the language of the internet and therefore the most useful of all languages for a non British person to speak, which is widely recognised outside the UK,  that here, it seems to be more important to be 'multicutural' than to have any identity as a nation. I do not understand why foreign nationals can come here and dictate what they will and will not tolerate, this does not happen in other places I have lived.
		
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You do have to abide by the law. What makes you think you don't?


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## Mince Pie (17 August 2011)

badattitude said:



			Before I came to this country, I learned the language. Not perfectly but in satisfactory fashion. No one has ever had to 'dumb down' or 'make allowances' for me. I expected when i came here that English would be the language of choice, christianity (predominately Cof E) would be the religion, and that those who lived here would abide by the English laws. That I would have to abide by the laws and culture of the country I was visiting.  This was how it worked when I lived in the USA and other European countries and certainly how it is in the far east. I have not been able to understand, when English is the language of the internet and therefore the most useful of all languages for a non British person to speak, which is widely recognised outside the UK,  that here, it seems to be more important to be 'multicutural' than to have any identity as a nation. I do not understand why foreign nationals can come here and dictate what they will and will not tolerate, this does not happen in other places I have lived.
		
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I see where you are coming from, I think. Are there Christian churches in the Middle East? Would I have the right to not wear a headscarf/veil?
And on that note, what about the story of the woman who worked at an airport who was disciplined for wearing a crucifix to work, although Islamic women were allowed to wear their head coverings?
Sometimes I really do feel like an ethnic minority in my own country


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## Azbo (17 August 2011)

Out of interest, how many people here have personal experience of living in inner cities and on benefits? 

I'm not condoning anything that happened last week, just so you know before I go on. However the one thing that has scared me the most is the reactionary response from the 'non-rioting' population. By this I do not mean that perpetrators should not be punished for their action.  But what worries me is to what level people are prepared to fore go human rights and civil liberties in the pursuit of so called justice. You see the thing with Justices is, it has to just.

I found this very interesting, please feel free to read it; http://www.independent.co.uk/opinio...ring-costs-ndash-but-so-do-riots-2333991.html
It's another view point.


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## BBH (17 August 2011)

Azbo said:



			Out of interest, how many people here have personal experience of living in inner cities and on benefits? 

I'm not condoning anything that happened last week, just so you know before I go on. However the one thing that has scared me the most is the reactionary response from the 'non-rioting' population. By this I do not mean that perpetrators should not be punished for their action.  But what worries me is to what level people are prepared to fore go human rights and civil liberties in the pursuit of so called justice. You see the thing with Justices is, it has to just.

I found this very interesting, please feel free to read it; http://www.independent.co.uk/opinio...ring-costs-ndash-but-so-do-riots-2333991.html
It's another view point.
		
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Yes its another viewpoint.

However I don't think being poor and feeling dispossessed  is a reason to justify what we saw on the streets. Some of the brightest most driven people I worked with in the city came from horrendous backgrounds of deprivation and their home situation drove them on to make bloomin sure they succeeded their way out of it.

I think another reason why people are so quick to judge is that we've just had enough. Absolutely enough of lawless behaviour with no consequences. The bleeding liberal hearts have had their very loud say for years and we've got this as a result.

Also tax payers are being squeezed really hard at the moment and I think there is an increasing resentment about funding free loaders.


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## Azbo (17 August 2011)

As I said, I'm not condoning anything. 

To be honest I get more annoyed at Corporate tax dodging, false expenses claims and bankers bonuses. Still if you can afford to the beat the system. 

I'm also thankful I have a job and that I wasn't made redundant last year.


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## badattitude (18 August 2011)

Seafarer said:



			You do have to abide by the law. What makes you think you don't?
		
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Last weeks events perhaps? Anyone defrauding the benefit system. Wife/child and animal abusers of which there appear to be many? Many laws, rules and regulations in this country have been amended or changed to conform with EEC regulation or pressure from minority groups. I do not think this is always a good thing as I do not believe so many people are proud to be British as they once were in the past. I think this is very sad. 


With regard to Azbo's link, that is very interesting, thank you.


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## perfect11s (19 August 2011)

Azbo said:



			Out of interest, how many people here have personal experience of living in inner cities and on benefits? 

I'm not condoning anything that happened last week, just so you know before I go on. However the one thing that has scared me the most is the reactionary response from the 'non-rioting' population. By this I do not mean that perpetrators should not be punished for their action.  But what worries me is to what level people are prepared to fore go human rights and civil liberties in the pursuit of so called justice. You see the thing with Justices is, it has to just.

I found this very interesting, please feel free to read it; http://www.independent.co.uk/opinio...ring-costs-ndash-but-so-do-riots-2333991.html
It's another view point.
		
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  Yes  the same attitude that has created this mess IE 
sodding handwinging head in the clouds left wing, champiagne socilists...  bloody independant and the odious guardian and their readers  have a lot to answer for...


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## Kaylum (20 August 2011)

HashRouge said:



			This thread got me thinking about benefits in general and has made me wonder why there isn't some sort of "condition" attached to receiving benefits, such as a set number of hours per week spent working at some sort of charity, like daycare centres for the elderly and so on? Surely that would help to solve several problems at once, getting people out of the house and "working", even if they can't find a proper, paying job; and helping to preserve charities and insulate them from the cuts.
		
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I agree with this^^^^^

But I think if you take benefits away from people what do they live on?  Trading drugs, committing more crime?  

Make them work for their benefits.  They probably wont go to work for a few months but they will soon get fed up. 

Bring back YTS, give every school leaver the chance of being accepted on a training course with the incenctive of a small amount of money and a good qualification at the end of it.  I remember if we completed a YTS we got £200 at the end of tthe course and loads of people got taken on by employers as they had proved they could get to work everyday.   Qualifications are good but if you arent very clever at school you may need to get out and do something your actually interested in.


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## Azbo (20 August 2011)

perfect11s said:



			Yes  the same attitude that has created this mess IE 
sodding handwinging head in the clouds left wing, champiagne socilists...  bloody independant and the odious guardian and their readers  have a lot to answer for...[/QUOTE

*Shudder....Sadly I don't reckon these publications are the first choice for your average disaffected youth. 

I think empathy is a word that really doesn't get a good look in with a large proportion of society these days. People are so quick to pass blame and judgment based on what blinkered information they choose to expose themselves to. I see so much self absorbed bitterness and intolerant to others. It saddens me greatly. And if that makes me 'head in the cloud left wing' then so be it.  At least by trying to understand others perspectives you are trying to be a better person. Which is something the whole of society could benefit from. 

Taking away someones benefit just increase the likely hood of someone trying to make a living outside of society. There have been a couple of suggestions earlier about volunteering. It does happen now but there are not the resources available to really make a difference. 

Nationwide there are not a great number of any jobs available. Even less if your an inexperienced young adult. Companies are having to make cuts and the first of these inevitably will be jobs. 

I currently live in an inner city area. I have been on benefits in the past, having left home at 18 without finishing college. I had no skills and very little self esteem and no idea what jobs I should be going for at that time.  In fact it was an opportunity through the job centre that got me back into college to train that got me off benefits. I know have a good job but not the best job security so who knows what will happen. 

I personally think a much better punishment for the rioters is community service. After all how many of public by ways could do with Ragwort pulling up?
		
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## perfect11s (20 August 2011)

Azbo said:





perfect11s said:



			Yes  the same attitude that has created this mess IE 
sodding handwinging head in the clouds left wing, champiagne socilists...  bloody independant and the odious guardian and their readers  have a lot to answer for...[/QUOTE

*Shudder....Sadly I don't reckon these publications are the first choice for your average disaffected youth. 

I think empathy is a word that really doesn't get a good look in with a large proportion of society these days. People are so quick to pass blame and judgment based on what blinkered information they choose to expose themselves to. I see so much self absorbed bitterness and intolerant to others. It saddens me greatly. And if that makes me 'head in the cloud left wing' then so be it.  At least by trying to understand others perspectives you are trying to be a better person. Which is something the whole of society could benefit from. 

Taking away someones benefit just increase the likely hood of someone trying to make a living outside of society. There have been a couple of suggestions earlier about volunteering. It does happen now but there are not the resources available to really make a difference. 

Nationwide there are not a great number of any jobs available. Even less if your an inexperienced young adult. Companies are having to make cuts and the first of these inevitably will be jobs. 

I currently live in an inner city area. I have been on benefits in the past, having left home at 18 without finishing college. I had no skills and very little self esteem and no idea what jobs I should be going for at that time.  In fact it was an opportunity through the job centre that got me back into college to train that got me off benefits. I know have a good job but not the best job security so who knows what will happen. 

I personally think a much better punishment for the rioters is community service. After all how many of public by ways could do with Ragwort pulling up?
		
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 Yes they could pull up ragwort  however I would like to see a  education system which rewards  hard work and self disapline     so when they end up at working age they have the right attitude  so employers  want them instead of getting polish or other imigrants..  because they are as good or better than them , I would like to see benifits cut for the lazy and feckless breeders,  maybe put them in a hostel system instead of automaticly  finding them a house  
the moment they spit out another mouth breather  that will end up terroriseing and robbing or breeding yet another useless waste of a skin ... Hey  well done you for bettering yourself hope the job lasts...
		
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## GingerCat (21 August 2011)

I really don't see how having a two tier punishment system would work, other than to cause even more problems and alienate people even further.

How can you suggest that more affluent people will (for example) receive a fine and a prison sentence, but poorer people will receive a fine, a prison sentence, lose their benefits and also their council housing?

For a Justice System to work it *has* to be seen as fair for all, you can't have one set of punishments for some people and another for the rest!


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## woodtiger (22 August 2011)

"For a Justice System to work it has to be seen as fair for all" GingerCat

Of courses there should be one justice system, but I disagree that it is wrong to take the benefits and houses away from people who misbehave.  A definition of benefit is "something good and an advantage", so people on benefits are at an advantage over people who are not.  If they misbehave, they should lose those benefits.

"For a Justice System to work it has to be seen as fair for all, you can't have one set of punishments for some people and another for the rest!" BUT there are already one set of rules for some people and another for the rest.  For example my husband and I live on a row of terraced houses: we work a stressful sixty-hour week to pay the mortgage on our house, along with the council tax and the other bills.  My neighbours, a couple of doors down don't have jobs, but have their rent, council tax etc all paid for; they can afford to smoke, and they have recently returned from two weeks in Turkey, paid for by their benefit money.  Their children have the latest clothes, iphones etc. and the house has all the lastest gadgets:  my husband and I have made a conscious decision not to have children yet as we simply cannot afford it.  

Where is the fairness in that?  It seems to me that everyone is equal but some are more equal than others.  I think that the Human Rights Act has a lot to answer for:  it seems to be a get-out clause absolving people.  Maybe it should re re-named the Human Wrongs Act.  

It is a great shame that people require an incentive to go to work, but there is currently none.  When families receive so much for doing nothing, why should they get off their backsides and get a job?  The incentive is to get pregnant and have a couple of kids in order to get a free flat or house. People like me and my husband are the mugs!


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## Azbo (22 August 2011)

woodtiger said:



			"  For example my husband and I live on a row of terraced houses: we work a stressful sixty-hour week to pay the mortgage on our house, along with the council tax and the other bills.  My neighbours, a couple of doors down don't have jobs, but have their rent, council tax etc all paid for; they can afford to smoke, and they have recently returned from two weeks in Turkey, paid for by their benefit money.  Their children have the latest clothes, iphones etc. and the house has all the lastest gadgets:  my husband and I have made a conscious decision not to have children yet as we simply cannot afford it. !
		
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I would question how they can afford that as you would not be able to do that on benefits alone. Seems to me there something not legal here. That's not about them getting benefits it about them potentially breaking the law. And just because this particular family do doesn't mean everyone else does. 

It wasn't that long ago that a large number of politicians were outed for making fraudulent expenses claims with public money. Perhaps they should lose the right to make any claimes at all? 

Why are people so quick to give up your human rights? That just seems ridiculous to me. Do you really want to be told what you should or should not think and do? What happens when you dont like this, what do you do then? 

And just for the record I've been working for quite a number of years without benefits and support myself wholly financially and without any other support. 18 was quite a few years ago for me now, sadly.


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## perfect11s (22 August 2011)

woodtiger said:



			"For a Justice System to work it has to be seen as fair for all" GingerCat

Of courses there should be one justice system, but I disagree that it is wrong to take the benefits and houses away from people who misbehave.  A definition of benefit is "something good and an advantage", so people on benefits are at an advantage over people who are not.  If they misbehave, they should lose those benefits.

"For a Justice System to work it has to be seen as fair for all, you can't have one set of punishments for some people and another for the rest!" BUT there are already one set of rules for some people and another for the rest.  For example my husband and I live on a row of terraced houses: we work a stressful sixty-hour week to pay the mortgage on our house, along with the council tax and the other bills.  My neighbours, a couple of doors down don't have jobs, but have their rent, council tax etc all paid for; they can afford to smoke, and they have recently returned from two weeks in Turkey, paid for by their benefit money.  Their children have the latest clothes, iphones etc. and the house has all the lastest gadgets:  my husband and I have made a conscious decision not to have children yet as we simply cannot afford it.  

Where is the fairness in that?  It seems to me that everyone is equal but some are more equal than others.  I think that the Human Rights Act has a lot to answer for:  it seems to be a get-out clause absolving people.  Maybe it should re re-named the Human Wrongs Act.  

It is a great shame that people require an incentive to go to work, but there is currently none.  When families receive so much for doing nothing, why should they get off their backsides and get a job?  The incentive is to get pregnant and have a couple of kids in order to get a free flat or house. People like me and my husband are the mugs!
		
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 Great post  very well put  and my guess the view of most decent hard working folk .. 
I think   good will come out of the riots ie people want the laws inforced and to be able to live without threat from the lawless and antisocial scum that have been given rights and no responsabiltys and indulged by the left  who live in ivory towers and dont have to live with 
the  results  of there damaging and stupid policys... Hopefully the conservitives will be able to change things  for the better and wont  allow  the librals  derail anything sensible...



                   g


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## Miss L Toe (22 August 2011)

Yep, I have met families who do very well out of the benefit system, if they juggle it right, and if they have a few cash jobs on the side, I don't think they are allowed holidays in Turkey, as they are not available for work!
It is a horrible way to live, lying in bed all morning, and I don't understand how they can live like that, while others who can't find work are depressed and so on.
It seems some councils must have special "clauses" to stop criminals living in council housing, as I can't see a law specially for "rioters" working.
Lets hope the riots have stopped, and now kids are back at school, they are kept under control.


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