# Once Bitten..........



## xx_ginge_xx (1 August 2015)

I am a new horse owner and have had my gelding since May 15.  He's 17hh Percheron.

About two weeks ago I took him off 'Magic' as everyone was saying how laid back he was and how he didn't need it. 
After about a week we had awful weather and due to the paddock having to be managed as it's not massive, he was stabled a little more during the day.  He was a bit grumpy because of this. 
Last week they were out for most of the day so I would have thought things would improve. 
I would ride him and everything is lovely and he's a 'dope on a rope', however about 5/6 days ago I had brought him in for dinner and I was trying to put up a hay net.  His ears were back and he turned his head and bit me hard on my chest.  He was told off obviously, and I put it down to bad manners. 
This week I was walking round with him in the school and he was following me but with his ears back as if trying to get me to go away.  The next day he did this in the paddock as well. 
Yesterday he was perfectly fine, and even loved a wither tickle for 30 minutes.
This morning I went in to the stable and his ears were back and he tried to turn and bite me again.  Again he was told off. 
As well as this I noticed he was being a bit more 'skitty' walking up from the paddock, not bad, but just a little more 'on edge', so I decided to put him back on the Magic, so he has been back on it now for about 5 days and seems to be improving apart from the odd 'blip'. 

My thoughts are that he has now settled in he is now 'trying it on' and is trying to be the 'Alpha Male' which would explain the following me around with his ears back etc.  I also think that hopefully give it a few more days and he will be more placid and in a better mood. 
It's hard to explain, when he was being 'rude' he would turn and put his bum' in my face, and he was taught not to do this, but this behaviour is more aggressive. 

Any thoughts as I am tearing my hair out.  It's like he had a personality transplant at times.  He is fine to ride, he is pretty good most of the time, but I am just worried that he has taken a dislike to me and I don't know why.  He doesn't want for anything, he has everything he needs, he just doesn't seem to like it when I am in his space at times.  

Any helpful hints on how I can stop him, or what you think it could be would be appreciated. 

Thank you x


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## 9tails (1 August 2015)

Is he kept alone? Individual turnout? How much turnout does he get and what are you aiming for when you're walking him around the school? I think you need to do quite a lot of groundwork to teach him to stay out of your space. I don't mean 20ft away but be consistent about him being far enough away that he can't take a chunk out of you. That's when leading and also in the stable. Teach him to back up, move over etc. Be consistent but fair then you should get a well mannered horse fairly quickly. No hugs and cuddles, adopt a workmanlike attitude to give him boundaries.


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## xx_ginge_xx (1 August 2015)

He has a shetland for company so he isn't on his own. 
On a good day he has turn out from 8.30 - 6pm.  When I was walking him around the school it was to give him some exercise as it had been raining in the morning really hard so I wanted him to go out for a bit so turned him out in the manege.  I was walking around with him on a lead rope and then took it off and thats when he was ears flat back and following me.  He knows about space etc and we have done quite a lot of groundwork, but the time he took a chunk out of me he had just had his dinner and was eating at his hay net and I was putting up another one.  Thinking about it perhaps he was unhappy I was in there when he was eating, however, this morning I was going in there to put his head collar on to turn him out. 
I agree with the consistency, I do try and be consistent, but I am probably guilty of being a bit 'tactile' with him at times, and my OH has said I need to be firmer with him at times.  I was just wondering why now is he like it.  I will adopt the 'workmanlike' attitude, which like you said will give him the boundaries.  Thank you 9tails. 
First horse you always worry what is wrong.


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## planete (1 August 2015)

What to us is an insignificant movement can be significant body language to a horse.  Every time he puts his ears back or tries to crowd you, make him take a few steps backwards.  Watch him to see if he is guilty of any other not so obvious 'pushy' behaviour and again ask him to back when he does it.  Be calm but businesslike when you ask him to back.  He will soon get the point.  Teach to him to 'stay' like you would a dog by putting him in one place and any time he moves one of his feet make him place it back into the original position until he eventually gives up trying to move before you ask him to.  It does not matter if you have to keep hold of a lead rope at first and can only take three steps away from him before he tries to move, over a few weeks you will see a change in his attitude.  Be very very consistent and you will turn him into a respectful horse.


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## xx_ginge_xx (1 August 2015)

Thank you - I will give this a go.  
Why do you think he is just starting this now?  Do you think it's because he has now 'settled in' and is trying it on? 
When he bit me the other day unfortunately I didn't see it coming as I was putting up the hay net.  
To begin with he thought by turning his bum round to face me either in the paddock or the stable would make me go away, but he knows that doesn't happen now so I guess he's trying something new. 

I don't know whether it would be a good or a bad thing if we could read their minds........ ;-)


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## sunshine100* (1 August 2015)

hi I would get a horse behaviorist in to see him-have you checked his teeth,something is def bothering him...horse language expert might be able to observe him with you-google someone nr you-they charge around £30-50 good luck


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## xx_ginge_xx (1 August 2015)

Yes that could be worth a go.  I will speak to my instructor on tuesday - she deals with riding, ground work and the whole caboodle, so if she doesn't have any suggestions then she may know someone who does.  I just can't put my finger on what is bothering him and it frustrates me.


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## Theocat (1 August 2015)

If Magic as working for him, it may be that he has a magnesium deficiency. If that's the case, there is no harm in addressing it with a magnesium supplement. Don't take his behViour personally - if the magic was working for you, just stick with it!


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## Barnacle (2 August 2015)

How old is this gelding?

You also mentioned him "settling in" - did you move? If so, is the Shetland a new turnout buddy? Did he have more (especially larger) horses before? 

You also seem to imply that he used to turn his quarters to you but he now knows that doesn't work to move you away. Can you elaborate? When was he doing this? How did you go about teaching him not to?

Also what does "telling him off" actually involve?


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## planete (2 August 2015)

I just think this horse has found out he can be a bit of a bully and needs some consistent training to mind his manners before you start throwing money at a problem which would not be one for a more experienced person.  Please talk to your  instructor as he/she knows your horse and has the opportunity to observe his behaviour.  There is nothing out of the ordinary in what this horse is doing.  He is just being a horse.  They all have different personalities and if yours has got away with being a bit pushy before you got him he has now sussed you out and is trying his luck with you very probably.  Your body language has probably told him inadvertently that you might be easy to intimidate.  It does not mean he is nasty or dangerous, he is like a kid who needs to be taught some boundaries.


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## xx_ginge_xx (2 August 2015)

He turned 7 in May. 
I bought him at the beginning of May, so he moved from a yard with 6 horses with a shetland for a companion, to a new place with just one shetland (not the same one) as a companion. They arrived within a day of each other.  Before that he was with horses of more his size, although not quite as big! 

When he first arrived he was good as gold and didn't put a foot wrong, was polite and would let me catch him in the paddock and would let me put his head collar on in the stable straight off.  I took him off Magic the second week he was with me because everyone said he was laid back and I didn't need it.  In the third week of having him he then started to misbehave by not letting me catch him in the paddock.  I would walk up to him and he would turn his hind quarters in my face.  He would put his ears back and so I had to chase him around the paddock and make him keep moving until he realised that I was going to keep going.  He was also turning round in the stable putting his tail in my face and being rude.  So I put him back on the magic and things improved. He knows that by turning his hind in my face doesn't work any more, but initially he made me feel anxious by doing this.  I stopped him from doing this by pushing him back round for him to be facing me. 

Two weeks ago a friend came to stay and she rode him and also said he didn't need Magic as he was laid back, so I thought so many people are telling me he doesn't need it, so I took him off it again.  About a week later he started to be really grumpy and this also coincided with the bad weather.  It was absolutely chucking it down so they were in the stable for a longer period of time as my paddock isn't that huge that I can afford to let it get like a bog.  
He followed me up the paddock with his ears back and trying to shoo me away, and did it in the school as well.  The day he bit me I had given him his dinner and then I was tying up a hay net when he just bit me on my right boob.  I gave him a slap on his shoulder and growled at him.  It shocked me because he hadn't bit me before and he hurt!  
I thought that perhaps it was because he was off the Magic so I decided to put him back on it.  He has been back on it now for 6 days and things seem to be improving.  This morning he initially wasn't interested in coming out but after I took the little one out he was stood there waiting. 
This afternoon he stood there while I scratched his withers and was good as gold.  Tonight he came in fine.  He was a little grumpy when I went to spray his fly spray but apart from that he has been improving.  
I know I need to be tougher with him as in not fuss over him so much and be more business like.  
Could it be so simple as being on the Magic?


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## WandaMare (2 August 2015)

Is he doing much work? One of my horses gets like this when she isn't worked enough. She is generally friendly and well mannered in the field, although sometimes she will turn her bum on me if she doesn't want to be caught. But in the stable, she will pull faces at me and occasionally grind her teeth as I walk past as if to say don't come near me. I tend to take no notice but if she gets bad I close her top door (she has 2 doors to her stable so she can walk over to the other one if she wants to). I find regular lunging helps with her because it reminds her that its up to me to decide where she stands and what work she does.

I think some of them do like to test us and its just gentle, firm and consistent handling which reminds them to respect us.


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## xx_ginge_xx (2 August 2015)

I think initially my body language was telling him that I felt intimidated, and I guess I am getting better as I go along, but it was just a total shock when he bit me.  
As for work, he is having a lesson a week, a hack, and a lunge.  The last week he hasn't done much though as they are Combining at the moment so the roads are really busy so last week he was ridden in the school twice and we missed a lesson as I wasn't well.  He was free schooled as well.  
I think you are right in that I need to be doing more with him.  I don't pay attention to him when he is a bit grumpy, it was just the fact I was in the stable hanging the hay net when he bit me.  

I am going to make a concerted effort to be consistent, firm but gentle with him and make sure he knows that although its a 50:50 relationship, I am in charge.  I will also speak to my instructor as we have a lesson on tuesday to see what else we can do when we can't hack out.  I am looking forward to when the field is ploughed next to us as then we can go across the stubble so that will be good.  I won't hack out on the roads on my own, I need a foot soldier, and as I said, at the moment it's not easy as all the big machinery is hurtling down the lane.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (2 August 2015)

More work. A proper work plan, don't faff about with him, he is a horse, he came to you after someone trained him to have good manners and you have allowed him to become naughty. He then got a bit confused, not sure who is the leader, so he tries to test you and discovers he is the leader and you are just a nuisance to him. So he has a go at you.
Horses are very body aware, things that you do tell him that you are a bit nervous of him, a bit unsure, he is young, he is a lot bigger than you and you must reverse the current situation asap.
It is likely the magnesium calmer is helping a little, but it has nothing to do with bad manners, nothing at all.
Get those brave pants on: you are a well educated and intelligent human, he is just a big clumsy clod of a  horse, you need to outwit him, not the other way round.
Forget petting him, he does not need it. Tie him up to groom and do it in a professional manner, consistently, after work he get tied up again for grooming or washing off.
If he is too strong get a training halter and do your groundwork, pressure release, you must move HIS feet not the other way round.
You don't need to be too gentle, you need to be consistent, why would you be gentle, that is not what horses do to each other, they scowl, they bite, they kick, they are not used to "gentle" Different if you have a nervous little filly foal which you need to "gentle" till it becomes confident.


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## Pearlsasinger (3 August 2015)

I always think that if a horse's behaviour/temperament changes, we need to look at any recent management changes.  You know that you have recently changed his feed and then his behaviour changed.  You have had some good advice about how to deal with his bad manners but if you go back to his previous feed, you probably won't need to deal with bad manners.
Another lesson to learn from this is; don't listen to random advice from 'everybody'.  If what you are doing is working, continue to do it.  If what you are doing isn't working ask advice from someone with a *lot* i.e. yrs and yrs of experience.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (4 August 2015)

I think if OP is unsure how to handle this horse she should get someone to do groundwork with her and her horse.

It is almost impossible to learn to drive a car to the standard required to pass the test without instruction, and it is probably about as difficult to do the same with horse handling. The big difference is that the behaviour of the car is consistent, the horse however can develop from dope on a rope to raging monster, in steps, and every day things get worse.

He may be getting too much grub and too little work, we can only surmise, but unfortunately having learned to be aggressive, it is not likely he will go back to original behaviour if all you do is to cut back his feed.


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## Pearlsasinger (4 August 2015)

It isn't a case of cutting back his feed, though, is it?  It is a case of going back to what worked before OP listened to people who were offering, apparently unsolicited, 'advice'.

I know from experience that Heavy Horses will take advantage of the unwary/novices   We had an ex-RS Clydesdale mare, bought for a novice rugby playing OH.  She slammed him into the stable doorframe in her rush to get to her tea, several evenings running.  Smaller but way more experienced sister swapped horses with him and the mare didn't even attempt to rush, so yes body-language etc is key but only if that is the original problem  but tbh it doesn't sound like this to me.  OP says she has changed his management, so the obvious course of action is to change back.  If that doesn't work, then is the time to get outside help.


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## chestnut cob (4 August 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			More work. A proper work plan, don't faff about with him, he is a horse, he came to you after someone trained him to have good manners and you have allowed him to become naughty. He then got a bit confused, not sure who is the leader, so he tries to test you and discovers he is the leader and you are just a nuisance to him. So he has a go at you.
Horses are very body aware, things that you do tell him that you are a bit nervous of him, a bit unsure, he is young, he is a lot bigger than you and you must reverse the current situation asap.
It is likely the magnesium calmer is helping a little, but it has nothing to do with bad manners, nothing at all.
Get those brave pants on: you are a well educated and intelligent human, he is just a big clumsy clod of a  horse, you need to outwit him, not the other way round.
Forget petting him, he does not need it. Tie him up to groom and do it in a professional manner, consistently, after work he get tied up again for grooming or washing off.
If he is too strong get a training halter and do your groundwork, pressure release, you must move HIS feet not the other way round.
You don't need to be too gentle, you need to be consistent, why would you be gentle, that is not what horses do to each other, they scowl, they bite, they kick, they are not used to "gentle" Different if you have a nervous little filly foal which you need to "gentle" till it becomes confident.
		
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All of the above.

OP - I would recommend getting some lessons in how to handle horses on the ground.  You wouldn't hesitate to have a riding lessons so why not a groundwork lesson.  I'd also, TBH, be inclined to move him and his companion to a livery yard for a few months where you have experienced help on hand to show you how you should be handling him.
He needs more work (a LOT more work!).  If the roads are too busy to hack out on then that's even more reason to spend some time at a livery yard where you can hack out with other people to get your confidence.


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## MotherOfChickens (4 August 2015)

among all the other good things people have suggested-a shetland (much as I love them) isn't necessarily a good companion to a very big horse. Think about it, how do they mutually groom? 

He needs more work as suggested. I would also tie him up for everything-grooming, tying up hay, rugging later on, skipping out-don't get sloppy about it, just keep tying him up. Make sure he moves his bum over for you, moves back form the door for you etc and do not go under his neck unless you really must (and don't do it often). Even if you do nothing else in a day, tie him up, groom him and do his feet as much as possible.You don't need to be in his face, you just need to be firm and consistent 


and eta-forget the alpha male/dominance stuff


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## oldie48 (5 August 2015)

Hi, first horses can be a real worry so be prepared to get some experienced help from someone you trust. He's a big horse and can't be allowed to get pushy but clearly he has been taught good manners and I'm sure with help and consistency you'll soon get things back on track. He's still quite new to you and my guess is that he's settled into his new home and is now testing the boundaries. All quite normal behaviour but if he's chipping away at your confidence, and he'll sense that straight away, you really do need some help. It's a pity you are not on a yard with an experienced YO, I didn't have horses at home for a couple of years and I don't think I'd have coped very well in your situation. I lost count of the number of times I needed help and I only had a 14hh pony and a 15hh mare, both were pretty easy. We all have to learn horsemanship it doesn't come naturally with most of us. Good luck I'm sure things will improve.


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