# **Pedal Bone Rotation advice needed**



## ~LucyLocket~ (17 March 2011)

My horse was diagonised with a bruised sole on 20th December 2010 with a bruised sole on 20th Dec 2010, then on the 28th Dec 2010 he was unable to walk, the vet came out and diagonised cushings/laminitis. 

He was put on full box rest and 2 weeks later the vet advised heart bar shoes, which my farrier put on, after these were put on he was in alot of pain (flinching and on tip toes all the time ) therefore the vet advised to take them off as they may have been put on too early. 

He was then xrayed and showed 9-12% rotation in right fore and 6% in left fore, they put lilly pads on as thought these would be more comfortable, he has gone from strength to strength with these, and the vet was pleased with progress, but when xrayed 6 weeks later, the rotation had got worse 19% in right fore and 8% in left fore, he has said the doesnt think there is much else they can do and had advised me to put him to sleep. 

He is a part of the family and I have owed him for 14 years and feel when he looks so comfortable there maybe more opitions I could consider... He is 21 years old and would love to hear of anyones experiences or advice that I could consider at this stage...


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## OAViola (17 March 2011)

our pony went lame on 22nd Dec and had pedal bone rotation although NO signs of laminitus, so a very sad and difficult time for us. I too had the bloods done for cushings and metabolic and all came back clear. I had 'Imprint shoes' put on her and I can honestly say she has been amazing ever since. (google Imprint shoes and read the website and they can advise you of a local farrier who can help) Its not cheap, but its non-invasive and works! Our pony is now back in full work and 100% sound! I did have to have a huge lifestyle change....shavings not straw, soaked hay not haylege, and I feed a diet advised by 'Thunderbrook feeds' as needed to do a gut cleanse and go 'organic'. She is on her 2nd set of Imprints and had Xrays done this morning to see where we are at as will return to 'normal' shoes very soon I hope. I know how devastating it all is and how much hard work is involved.


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## LucyPriory (17 March 2011)

Before you make any hasty decisions read 'Founder Prevention and Cure' by Jamie Jackson.  You can get it on Amazon.

Pedal bone 'rotation' is not the death sentence some vets think it is.  

http://barefoothorseblog.blogspot.com/2010/12/which-one-has-laminitis.html  This horse has a substantial (think house brick) lamellar wedge (the outward sign of 'rotation') but is very sound and doing more than 40 minutes work including roadwork every day.

Oh and he had been on box rest for many months - at least 9 and the owner had been told to PTS by both vet and farrier too.


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## mrdarcy (17 March 2011)

Please read this article and print off and pass onto your vet:

http://www.aanhcp.net/Bulletin 113 Mythos of P3 Rotation.pdf


Pedal bone rotation is not the end of the line. I have clients with horses that have had rotation and are now back in work. I get so upset by hearing so many vets advising to PTS just because of rotation - this is even if the horse is sound as a pound! Your horse sounds like he's improving in leaps and bounds. Listen to the horse not the vet!


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## shortstuff99 (17 March 2011)

mrdarcy I found the link to the article you posted very interesting. My horse has recently been diagnosed with cushings and laminitis and on x-rays has shown to have some rotation in the front feet and I have been prescribed the usual heart bars and pain killers, but vets do seem to have a very pessimistic view of this condition as a whole and I found it refreashing to read an article that wasn't so 'doom and gloom' on the subject. Thanks!


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## olop (17 March 2011)

My mare had pedal bone rotation diagnosed at age 24.  Unfortunately we had her PTS as we couldnt afford the treatment she needed & as we rescued her at age 21 from a really harsh life we felt that having her PTS was the kindest thing for her.

If you are determined to get your horse through it then the above reponses have some great advice, I wish you all the best & hope your horse pulls through


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## alsiola (18 March 2011)

LucyPriory said:



			Pedal bone 'rotation' is not the death sentence some vets think it is.
		
Click to expand...

Absolutely agree.  I find x-rays extremely useful for guiding trimming (and shoeing  ), but they have been shown to be very poor at determining the likelihood of recovery.  Your horse's lameness, and how well you can control his pain are the most important factors in deciding whether to continue treatment or not.  A couple of extreme examples to illustrate this point - I am currently seeing a 16 y.o. 17hh ex-showjumper with Cushings, who has 23 degrees of rotation in his left fore.  Last time I saw him he was sound walking on concrete with no painkillers.  I am no longer seeing a 20 y.o. Welsh C mare with Cushings who had no x-ray changes whatsoever, because she was in severe pain that was non-responsive to multiple forms of pain relief.
I always say to people that I will keep trying until I am blue in the face as long as their horse's pain is controlled, and not overly affecting their quality of life, but as soon as they can no longer cope with the pain that is when we think about calling it a day.


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## Lotty (19 March 2011)

My mare was diagnosed with laminitis last March, there were a couple of times during her recovery when another vet from the same practice mentioned to me that he didn't hold out much hope.

My mare was stabled for a full 5months only coming out her stable for a very short walk to be x-rayed, she was on bute and sedalin - this was reduced the last couple of months. Over the 5month period my farrier put on 4 sets of Imprint Shoes, then heartbars after that she was back to her normal shoes. My farrier came every 3-4 weeks and a day before the vet would come out to x-ray so my farrier could see exactly what was going on.

I am pleased to say my mare has made a full recovery and I'm now riding her. Her management has changed, she is still on shavings, her hay is weighed and soaked and she goes out in a muzzle or is only turned out for a few hours.


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## tallyho! (20 March 2011)

My chap had bruised soles, rotation, navicular and lami 2009 and we tried the remedial shoeing route. This made his hooves so deformed after a year and so expensive.

Then I discovered pete ramey and even though it took me another year and more setbacks to make the decision, best thing I ever did was to take his shoes off.

Usually we have many episodes of lami and lameness. 7 months now and no lami. I even drive barefoot as well as doing a couple of unaff dressage comps and SJ. Moves better than he ever did.


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## ~LucyLocket~ (30 March 2011)

UPDATE - 

I have had his heels cut down and his toe cut right back and he seems comfortable again, the pedal bone has not come through the sole as yet and the vet seemed to think it would have by now, the vet thought it was too early to consider the imprint shoes, therefore I have had his front shoes taken off and he has 'bare' front feet.

He got worse last weekend and the farrier thought it maybe due to the back lash of having the work done to his feet, I have although found he has a abbess coming out of his coronet band, I have now been putting a poltice on it and it seems to be drawing out the infection and he seems comfortable again which is good. 

He is now been on box rest for 3 months and seems to be a slow process of trying and eliminating things to improve things but I hope we are finally getting there, the vet said he is not out of the woods yet. 

So we will have to wait and see, I do although find all comments/experiences VERY useful as my vet is very slow with coming up with ideas on how to improve things and it seems that I am doing all the research and passing this on to him as suggestions to try...

Thank you for everyones help


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## emmachiro (3 April 2011)

My old mare went on for about 10 years post pedal bone rotation/laminitis/cushings diagnosis.  Imprint shoes really helped, correcting diet, deep bed, keeping toes cut back.  Be aware that if they have a really bad couple of days it may be an abscess brewing, as this tends to go hand in hand with rotation.  

I really believe you can still give a horse a good life even with rotation.   The farrier Robin Compton was amazing at helping us out and does amazing remedial work.

Easy boots were also very helpful, with soft pads in the bottom to help her when she was barefoot towards the end of her life.

Good luck!


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## brucea (4 April 2011)

This is my laminitic pony a year or so after we were advised that he should really be put down. He had rotation in both fronts, was off his feet for 2-3 weeks

We kept him barefoot, on supportive surfaces, got his diet right and gave him as much movement as he was comfortable with

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xd1n7UzL5_U

It can be done, but it takes time and patience - you can't "fix" laminitis, you can only address the underlying causes and grow a new and better hoof capsule

Essentials in my toolbox are also Agnus Castus Tincture, Nettle, Rosehip, Cinammon and Magnesium Oxide - all good support for Cushings/laminitics.

Good luck with your pony


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## Amymay (4 April 2011)

How old is the horse??  And how much improvement has he shown over the past 3 months generally??


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## Kezza (4 April 2011)

My friend's 27 yr old pony got lami last year in Oct, found to be Cushings related. He had pedal bone rotation of both fronts, one worse than the other. Vet prescribed box rest for 2 months, pergolide, sedalin and bute and then gradual turnout. Farrier put pads on all round with his natural balance shoes with frog supports on fronts. He has been sound ever since and will always be in the pads I think. Best of luck.


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## ~LucyLocket~ (13 April 2011)

He is 21years old, I would say he has made a good improvement in the last 2 months, it was generally the first month where he was most uncomfortable and when heart bars were put on. 

Currently apart from the abbcesses he has had in his front feet he looks normal in the stable, hes having another xray in a month or so to check the rotation and then we will consider the next step we need to take ( such as exercise and movement out of his box )


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## Sheila C (13 April 2011)

My mare of 17 went down with infection in one of her front and one hind feet last June, possibly due to Lami but not confirmed as she had no Lami stance or other symptoms but was on Danilon for Arthritis and my vet said it could possibly have masked Lami - I poulticed them for 8 weeks and pedals were just tipping through - it was an horendous time but my vet who is in his 60's said to let nature take it's course keep her quiet, restrict grazing and then she began to "grow" new feet.  My vet kept a strict eye on her and gently trimmed the old hoof to allow the new hoof to grow properly.  I am over the moon to say she now has two new feet, soles are perfect and she is already enjoying the Spring - please, please do not give up let nature takes it course and yes I second the advice of the others please read the books on Founder - they were an inspriation to me!  Good Luck and keeping giving your horse loads of TLC and have faith as he will know you need him to get over this!!


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## Sheila C (13 April 2011)

Lucy - just noticed you are from Cambs, so am I.  If you are close to Haddenham, you are quite welcome to come and see my mare and I will tell you the whole story of how it's taken nearly a year but you can get there.


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## bensababy (14 April 2011)

Seems a similar story to mine that i went through late last year. Mine got Laminitis and was diagnosed with Cushings. He also had the exact same rotation as yours, my farrier tried a special made pair of clogs for him as his soles were incredibly thin and he has very narrow feet, these appeared to make him no comfier, so vet/farrier decided would be best to leave unshod, i bought him some Old Mac boots and put them on when he walked anywhere, 4 months later and he is probably 98% sound. I have to say after seeing the x-rays i honestly could not see any light at the end of the tunnel, i thank my farrier for all the hard work and patience he has put in with my pony and has never been defeatist in his attitude. 

I am going to have another set of x-rays done in the summer to see where the pedal bone is and hopefully a big improvement. 

I wish you all the best - and i can say not to give up, it does get better.


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## Tashza (2 June 2011)

Thank you to EVERYONE who has posted so far.

My 16hh mare around 18yrs old suddenly took laminitis 2 weeks ago. The first week she appeared to recover, however slowed down and the latest visit resulted in x-rays which I just got a call about (and once the tears subsided enough, determination has set in! I love her more than life and want to give her every chance even without the backup of insurance).

However it must be pointed out from the start that this affects ALL 4 feet ....
as for the rotation degree, I have no idea as yet, appointment to see the x-rays in just over an hour and awaiting glasgow vet schools comments.  I will be asking them to contact the laminitis clinic for their input also - thinking being, they are the experts. It must be noted there is only one vet practise where I live and they have real equine specialist  that is not to say my vet (of choice from the practise) is not doing her best.

The first item that came up was the imprint shoes that I have seen several people already mention and gives me hope, also the comments about vets saying PTS as this has been hinted at.

My girl is already barefoot and has been for a good few years but unfortunately we have no barefoot trimmers near so have only managed to get a trainee once  and until a new farrier came into the area I didnt like the way the few that service this area could (and have) picked up and dropped people at will, however blunt he may be he's upfront what he offers and what he expects in return  though I have not spoken to him about this as yet (think he is on holiday right now).

I will check out the links offered in earlier posts and ask for any referals or contact from people who cover or live in the dumfries and galloway region especially if they have dealt with or experienced pedal rotation and treated with success to allow me to tap into their knowledge or contacts who can help me.  Please feel free to pm if you prefer.

The last 2 weeks treatment has been:-

deep shavings (thankfully am deep litter which meant bed was there)
I will raise the issue of imprint shoes at the appointment.
Frog supports
ACP 25mg one 3 times daily - unfortunately I'm using carrot to get this in her any better ideas very much appreciated
Bute 1.5g twice a day (danilon equidos 15%) 

Using soaked haylage as she has a COPD and when at vet school a few years ago she managed to grab a mouthfull before we left for the journey and windpipe was bad with muscus/froth (endiscope for tumour in head/airway) some 10 hrs later (broke down on way) and were advised in no uncertain terms to feed hay though have sourced a small bale of good quality hay to soak and try but not holding much hope in this case. 

SheilaC - thank you for sharing what must be the worst case in rotation, I may pm you if that is acceptable 

I also would like to thank everyone for taking the time to read this and any advice they offer.


Questions
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Can anyone can advise when too soon is to put imprints on?

Any alternatives to hay or haylage (please note the haylage is grown on the farm where kept and goes to seed before cutting)

Brucea 
mentions essentials and one in particular that jumps out is the Magnesium Oxide as I was speaking to a friend who when I advised about my mare had mentioned someone she knew who had sworn Magnesium something had made all the difference - I will be phoning her and hopefully get my number passed on to this person (both are miles away) but in the meantime if Brucea could expand or if anyone else can jump in 

Kezz
I would be interested in the type of pads used (if one direction doesnt work I want to have other plans lining up!)


I hope I make sense as my brain is still reeling right now and should be asking a lot more questions

I apologies for the length of the post, I am still in shock at my never sick or sorry made of steel girl having laminitis let alone now rotation.  Unfortunate series of events (2 minor injuries and out of formula 4 feet for 2 months as well as the weather we've had that all together tipped her over the edge, other horses in same field and next are fine and barr one, were not doing as much work as she was) maybe I'm looking for a reason and this is none .....

Sincere and greatful thanks in advance


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## Tashza (2 June 2011)

sorry re haylage paragraph - she got a mouthful of hay before travelling which I did not know about until returning to trailer to update everyone and thats when it came out.


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## Tashza (2 June 2011)

x-rays show between 12 & 19% rotation at present


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## Tashza (3 June 2011)

reposting on a new thread to try and get some new input

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?p=9717956#post9717956


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## ILuvCowparsely (16 November 2011)

lucy     did you horse have any heat with the abcess??


 My mares on 4th month box rest was improving till  fri eve when she gone back to very  painful in 1 1/2 days still is.   vet out today  she has heart bar shoes on in front  virt sugar free diet  soaked and rinsed hay etc, the pulse has gone up  there is no reaction to hoof testers  feet are not that warm??


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## Oberon (16 November 2011)

moorman said:



			After 36 years of treating referral laminitics from vets, mainly using steel, plastic, or aluminium shoes, I now only use a barefoot approach, this is because I realised along with others that the problem was not with the rotation or assumed rotation of P3, but it was to do with making sure the repair mechanism was working at its bests.
This was something I could not achieve by the fitting of shoes but by the recommendation of the right diet and correct balance of the hoof tissues that were able to weight bare.
http://www.rockfoot.com/lameness.html#avoid 
This may explain it better
		
Click to expand...


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