# Interesting article about temperature regulation in horses. Worth a read



## JulesRules (1 October 2018)

Very interesting read...




__ https://www.facebook.com/233421046862124/posts/917577288446493


----------



## sport horse (1 October 2018)

I read that on Facebook and did not know how to copy to this forum.  So many people rug horses too much - hopefully education will be the way forward.


----------



## JFTDWS (1 October 2018)

I like the embedded link.  Cool new forum stuff


----------



## Fiona (1 October 2018)

I read it this morning, hopefully the message is getting through.....

Fiona


----------



## Pinkvboots (1 October 2018)

Maybe I should print this off and take it to the yard next door, most of the horses are in full neck rugs already left on 24-7 mainly because people can't be bothered to take them off before work, I saw a few out in turnouts in 20 degrees because it was raining a few weeks back.


----------



## ester (1 October 2018)

I know I have always been spoilt by essentially living on site but I do massively appreciate the fact that it is easier to change rugs as required, it does seem to be those that only see their horses once a day that seem to struggle, especially at times of year when the variation is so big.


----------



## Fiona (1 October 2018)

Its such a difficult time of year to rug, quite hot sometimes in the middle of the day still, but can be below freezing in places (we live in a frost pocket  ) so I'd rather under rug than overrug.

Over rugging for the night time temps and then not removing or changing rug during the day would definitely be a welfare issue there pinkyboots....

Fiona


----------



## Ambers Echo (1 October 2018)

Interesting article but I suspect won't make anyone change their minds! I rug far less than most people on my yard, though still more than strictly necessary. But in my experience there is absolutely no telling people that a full neck thick rug on a warm Autumn day is unnecessary. They probably think I am cruel for under-rugging!


----------



## buddylove (1 October 2018)

I am standing firm!! My ID mare will not be seeing a turnout until I see a forecast of prolonged wind and rain or freezing temperatures. It's tough though when nearly every other horse on the yard has been rugged for the last 2 months!!


----------



## SpringArising (1 October 2018)

There are about 30 horses on my yard wearing fleeces at the moment, and have been for about a week. Most of these horses are fat and unclipped. I feel so sorry for them - I have been leaving the yard in a T-SHIRT at about 9pm 

I won't be rugging until I clip.


----------



## Art Nouveau (1 October 2018)

Interesting, but I haven't seen 0c as the lower limit before, I've seen it as 5c. Maybe it depends whether the horse has it's summer coat or winter coat.


----------



## DD (1 October 2018)

interesting article thanks for posting


----------



## Ambers Echo (1 October 2018)

No I've not seen zero as the lower limit either. But I did know it was much lower than ours! And yet most people rug theit horses as soon as they are a bit chilly themselves.


----------



## LaurenBay (1 October 2018)

It's really difficult to get it right this time of year. I went up on last weekend to find my mare tucked up and shivering (first time in 7 years I have witnessed her shivering) so I put a rug on her and left her with plenty of hay. 3 hours later and the rain stopped and the sun came out and it went to 22 degrees. Back up to field to remove rugs and she was too hot. If it had been a weekday she would have had to have had it on all day as I can't leave work to remove rugs and it is only her and 1 other Horse so no one to help me.


----------



## Elf On A Shelf (1 October 2018)

But my Shetlands need their 450g full neck turnouts on all the time!!!!!!!


...


----------



## catkin (1 October 2018)

Good to see it written down.
Interesting about the stone stables - makes sense as our stone ones are always cooler in the summer than wooden ones. Just shows that one management regime DOESNT fit all, one has to take all factors into account!
By observation we have seen that the ponies like a light rug if it's stormy and wet but not if it's dry and cold. 

Would like to see more on the research on effects of air temperature on density of hair growth if anyone knows the link. Was having just this conversation the other day about light vs temperature and hair growth, and when each comes into effect in domestic horses


----------



## Pinkvboots (1 October 2018)

Fiona said:



			Its such a difficult time of year to rug, quite hot sometimes in the middle of the day still, but can be below freezing in places (we live in a frost pocket  ) so I'd rather under rug than overrug.

Over rugging for the night time temps and then not removing or changing rug during the day would definitely be a welfare issue there pinkyboots....

Fiona
		
Click to expand...


Thing is there is a person that does services so no excuse, they are still out 24-7 so people tend to see to there horse once a day but if your horse is DIY it's not fair to leave them in the same rug day and night in this weather.


----------



## Slightlyconfused (1 October 2018)

One of mine has a trace clip with neck off and hogged and is naked unless its raining and i want to ride. 
The other has been in a 100g at night if it falls below 10 degrees as he ties up when left to it


----------



## ycbm (1 October 2018)

The stuff about stone stables versus wood is absolute rubbish. Horses do not radiate heat to the nearest available solid surface. They radiate heat into the air that surrounds them. The amount of heat that they lose is dependant on the air temperature, not the temperature of the walls.

In addition, in winter, daylight temperatures (especially if it's sunny) will heat up stone walls, which then release that heat when the temperature drops at night, meaning that  the air in stone stables is often noticeably warmer than the air in wooden stables, which lose their heat much quicker because an inch or two of wood is much less insulating than 8 inches of concrete block.

For the same reason, the greater insulation of stone walls, the heat of the horse inside the stable is better retained, and unless you have big draughts or a very high ceiling, a stone stable will be warmer than a wooden one in very cold weather.


----------



## Annagain (1 October 2018)

My approach to rugging is very pragmatic - it's about keeping them in the way that means I can ride them with the least amount of hassle while ensuring they're comfortable and healthy. Even at 22 my boys would be fine unrugged if they were field ornaments (their two retired fieldmates who are very similar are fat, hairy and muddy) so I'm the first to admit I clip / rug to suit me, which I suppose we all do unless we have very old, unwell or delicate horses.  

They're currently unrugged but will be wearing lightweights once the weather turns wet simply to keep them clean as they're both grey. I won't clip them until mid-late November as I hate it and don't want to do it more than once a year. I'll keep their work fairly light between now and then as they get hairier to avoid too much sweating. When they're clipped they're fully clipped. They don't really need to be fully clipped for the level of work they do these days but I still have their heavyweight rugs (they never really wear them unless the weather is really cold as they're plenty warm enough in mediumweights) but they get filthy without being covered nose to tail so I like them to wear snuggy hoods and they'd be too warm without full clips. Plus I hate the moulting!


----------



## Leo Walker (1 October 2018)

I cant seem to quote, but I'd imagine hes done his research before making such statements YCBM


----------



## ycbm (1 October 2018)

Leo Walker said:



			I cant seem to quote, but I'd imagine hes done his research before making such statements YCBM 

Click to expand...


You'd think so wouldn't you  ðŸ˜‚

Physics 101 anybody?


----------



## JulesRules (1 October 2018)

I think the ones that soak up the heat from the sun are block or brick as opposed to stone.


----------



## ycbm (1 October 2018)

JulesRules said:



			I think the ones that soak up the heat from the sun are block or brick as opposed to stone.
		
Click to expand...

Nope, stone does it too, I have stone.  My stables are noticeably cooler in summer and warmer in winter than wood stables. The thicker the stone/block/brick the longer it takes to warm up and slower it is to cool down.

His explanation is pure nonsense.


----------



## KautoStar1 (1 October 2018)

ycbm said:



			The stuff about stone stables versus wood is absolute rubbish. Horses do not radiate heat to the nearest available solid surface. They radiate heat into the air that surrounds them. The amount of heat that they lose is dependant on the air temperature, not the temperature of the walls.

In addition, in winter, daylight temperatures (especially if it's sunny) will heat up stone walls, which then release that heat when the temperature drops at night, meaning that  the air in stone stables is often noticeably warmer than the air in wooden stables, which lose their heat much quicker because an inch or two of wood is much less insulating than 8 inches of concrete block.

For the same reason, the greater insulation of stone walls, the heat of the horse inside the stable is better retained, and unless you have big draughts or a very high ceiling, a stone stable will be warmer than a wooden one in very cold weather.
		
Click to expand...


The highly regarded Dr Marlin vs. YCBM.   I think my money is on the scientist


----------



## Pearlsasinger (1 October 2018)

Ambers Echo said:



			Interesting article but I suspect won't make anyone change their minds! I rug far less than most people on my yard, though still more than strictly necessary. But in my experience there is absolutely no telling people that a full neck thick rug on a warm Autumn day is unnecessary. They probably think I am cruel for under-rugging!
		
Click to expand...


Perhaps you need to lead by example!  What is the point of rugging more than strictly necessary?  You risk, at best, making your horse uncomfortable and possibly risk skin problems.


----------



## Leo Walker (1 October 2018)

Sometimes you can be really sure about something, and still be wrong. I know that fans dont blow out cold air, but that doesnt stop my body thinking they do as thats what it feels like to me. My moneys on the scientist as well!


----------



## JulesRules (1 October 2018)

Ambers Echo said:



			Interesting article but I suspect won't make anyone change their minds! I rug far less than most people on my yard, though still more than strictly necessary. But in my experience there is absolutely no telling people that a full neck thick rug on a warm Autumn day is unnecessary. They probably think I am cruel for under-rugging!
		
Click to expand...

Yep, told my YO about it as she is (IMO) an over rugger and she just poo -pooed it as of course she knows better. 

I'm going to print it off and put on the yard noticeboard tomorrow though.


----------



## DabDab (1 October 2018)

ycbm said:



			Nope, stone does it too, I have stone.  My stables are noticeably cooler in summer and warmer in winter than wood stables. The thicker the stone/block/brick the longer it takes to warm up and slower it is to cool down.

His explanation is pure nonsense.
		
Click to expand...




ycbm said:



			Nope, stone does it too, I have stone.  My stables are noticeably cooler in summer and warmer in winter than wood stables. The thicker the stone/block/brick the longer it takes to warm up and slower it is to cool down.

His explanation is pure nonsense.
		
Click to expand...

He's possibly not explaining very well, but is talking about thermal radiation/thermal infared, rather than heat transfer through convection or conduction. It passes from one body to another no matter the surrounding air temperature.

But of course this has very little impact when the air temperature is cold and therefore the greater thermal insulation properties mean that the heat that has been transferred from horse to walls does not then disappear instantly out into the outside air. Breeze blocks hold the temperature in, even if they can't heat transfer back in the horse's direction due to their emissivity. If that makes sense?


----------



## Ambers Echo (1 October 2018)

Pearlsasinger said:



			Perhaps you need to lead by example!  What is the point of rugging more than strictly necessary?  You risk, at best, making your horse uncomfortable and possibly risk skin problems.
		
Click to expand...

I have endless arguments with my daughters about over-rugging. We have found a compromise that means they are probably rugged a little more than they need to be  but not enough for them to overheat. Plus they stay cleaner that way which is useful for competition ponies who live out 24/7.


----------



## criso (1 October 2018)

Last week when mine were still out at night someone commented that they came up to the yard one evening and there was a row of stabled chunky irish horses all with rugs and there were my two tbs out in the fields naked.  One of them who's a real wimp had a rain sheet one night when it was raining heavily but that's it.  They swapped to day turnout this weekend and apart from one other horse on the yard, they are the only ones who are rugless day and night.


----------



## Dr David Marlin (2 October 2018)

ycbm said:



			The stuff about stone stables versus wood is absolute rubbish. Horses do not radiate heat to the nearest available solid surface. They radiate heat into the air that surrounds them. The amount of heat that they lose is dependant on the air temperature, not the temperature of the walls.

In addition, in winter, daylight temperatures (especially if it's sunny) will heat up stone walls, which then release that heat when the temperature drops at night, meaning that  the air in stone stables is often noticeably warmer than the air in wooden stables, which lose their heat much quicker because an inch or two of wood is much less insulating than 8 inches of concrete block.

For the same reason, the greater insulation of stone walls, the heat of the horse inside the stable is better retained, and unless you have big draughts or a very high ceiling, a stone stable will be warmer than a wooden one in very cold weather.
		
Click to expand...

Unless you have rewritten the laws of thermodynamics (?), it's not "absolute rubbish". Not even partial rubbish. The transfer of radiant heat occurs between adjacent bodies or surfaces without the need for direct contact and without convection. In the case of the Sun and radiant heat transfer, the Sun is the hotter body and transmits radiation to us (the cooler body), warming us. In a stone building, we are the radiant body (the equivalent of the Sun) as we are hotter and we radiate heat to the colder walls. Its all very clearly explained here: https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/radiation-heat-transfer-d_431.html


----------



## HeresHoping (2 October 2018)

Second Law of Thermodynamics: Heat, cannot of itself pass, from one body to a hotter body. 

Great article, David. Thank you. Have shared across SM. Of course there is always one who strongly believes their horse breaks all the rules... one day the message will get through.


----------



## PapaverFollis (2 October 2018)

I have to say mine does actually break the rules and trying to rug her as I would a normal horse of her size and type (i.e. she's enormous and hairy and shouldn't  need a rug at all unless it goes below freezing with added windchill and rain) has resulted in a tye up again. (I've done a slightly drunken rambling thread about it if anyone is interested).  I hate it because I hate over-rugging and my elderly Anglo Arab is often the least rugged up horse on a yard and people think I'm cruel but she's fine. But then the big fat cob that needs rugging to the eyeballs comes along and I can't process it.  And other people go "see, we told you they needed rugs".... at least they do in my imagination.


----------



## DabDab (2 October 2018)

Dr David Marlin said:



			Unless you have rewritten the laws of thermodynamics (?), it's not "absolute rubbish". Not even partial rubbish. The transfer of radiant heat occurs between adjacent bodies or surfaces without the need for direct contact and without convection. In the case of the Sun and radiant heat transfer, the Sun is the hotter body and transmits radiation to us (the cooler body), warming us. In a stone building, we are the radiant body (the equivalent of the Sun) as we are hotter and we radiate heat to the colder walls. Its all very clearly explained here: https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/radiation-heat-transfer-d_431.html

Click to expand...

I think it is possibly a little confusing where you say that the walls 'draw' heat out of a horse, which isn't really true, it's just that cooler objects radiate less heat back, so the net is more. But the amount of heat that is radiated by a horse is dependent on its own temperature, size and shape (and whether it is wearing a rug)


----------



## Ambers Echo (2 October 2018)

I hesitate to contradict a professor but aren't we just talking different laws of physics as opposed to one being wrong and the other right: stone buildings have a large thermal mass and will stay warmer than the outside air once the temps have dropped.

I checked this all  out with my OH who is a Physicist - this is his day job - and he's with ycbm on this one!

According to him the article linked to is all totally accurate but does not really apply to the situation of a horse in a stable, Radiant heat  generally becomes significant when we are talking about white hot bodies. Like the sun! So yes horses are the 'radiant body' but radiant heat loss from a horse is  negligible compared to heat loss by convection. Not even radiators 'radiate'. Horses will  lose heat rapidly once temperatures drop around them as they seek to reach thermal equilibrium with their surroundings. The vast majority of that heat loss will be via convection. As a stone stable has a larger thermal mass than a wooden one it will  stay warmer anbd so will the horse.


----------



## Pearlsasinger (2 October 2018)

Ambers Echo said:



			I have endless arguments with my daughters about over-rugging. We have found a compromise that means they are probably rugged a little more than they need to be  but not enough for them to overheat. Plus they stay cleaner that way which is useful for competition ponies who live out 24/7.
		
Click to expand...


I must say that I wouldn't argue with children about over-rugging, I would simply tell them how it is going to be.  Perhaps now that there has been an incident with one of the ponies expressing her dislike of rugging would be a good time to insist on pony welfare over a child's natural inclination to 'dress up'.  Especially as that pony isn't going to be competing in the near future.
This might be a good opportunity for the children to really understand how ponies keep themselves warm.


----------



## ycbm (2 October 2018)

Dr David Marlin said:



			Unless you have rewritten the laws of thermodynamics (?), it's not "absolute rubbish". Not even partial rubbish. The transfer of radiant heat occurs between adjacent bodies or surfaces without the need for direct contact and without convection. In the case of the Sun and radiant heat transfer, the Sun is the hotter body and transmits radiation to us (the cooler body), warming us. In a stone building, we are the radiant body (the equivalent of the Sun) as we are hotter and we radiate heat to the colder walls. Its all very clearly explained here: https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/radiation-heat-transfer-d_431.html

Click to expand...


David, a horse is not a fusion reactor.  Horses lose heat into the surrounding air. The amount of heat a horse loses  is unaffected by any surface that is around that at air.  The fact that a wall itself is warm or cold does not alter the amount of heat lost by the horse, only the air temperature.

I live in a stone building with walls two feet thick. So do my horses. They air inside them is cooler in summer and warmer in winter than wood ones, and I rug accordingly.

If you are going to go all physics on us, you really do need to include the heating effect of the horse on the air around it and the difference in insulation properties of wood and stone to keep that heat inside the stable with the horse, and the thermal inertia which  means thick stone walls release heat into cooler air and cool hotter air much more effectively than a thin piece of wood.

You spoiled a really good argument with nonsense physics which isn't right in terms of horse rugging, and are making it worse by arguing about it.


----------



## meleeka (2 October 2018)

Iâ€™m not sure this argument about physics is very relevant to the thread ðŸ™„

I currently have one rigged and three not. Another will have a rug if it rains but the other two will stay rugless. The rugless ones will also have a belly clip. They are all natives but are all different, including their coats. One of tbe unrugged ones gets too hot in a stable but the other one feels chilly. The hot one is quite big for his (wooden) stable so less air around him. 

Iâ€™d always say start with the minimum and only rug/add extra If itâ€™s obvious you need to. Modern rugs are very good at being effective over a wider range of temperatures so adding rugs when it gets colder isnâ€™t always necessary. I would never want mine shivering, but the odd occasion if the weather has changed suddenly wonâ€™t hurt them!


----------



## Ambers Echo (2 October 2018)

Pearlsasinger said:



			I must say that I wouldn't argue with children about over-rugging, I would simply tell them how it is going to be.  Perhaps now that there has been an incident with one of the ponies expressing her dislike of rugging would be a good time to insist on pony welfare over a child's natural inclination to 'dress up'.  Especially as that pony isn't going to be competing in the near future.
This might be a good opportunity for the children to really understand how ponies keep themselves warm.
		
Click to expand...

You raise an interesting point about kids and ponies: how to balance educating them with allowing or expecting them to be indepdendently responsible for their own ponies  which includes making those sorts of decisions - and at their age (14) even allowing them to just disagree with me! Where there is a clear welfare issue of course I step in. But this isn't that - it's rugging a little more then the horse might strictly need and a lot less than everyone else rugs! It is not a welfare issue in my view. I doubt the rug was a trigger for Ginny but it is a point worth considering so thank-you for that suggestion. But when she first arrived she would lunge at people in the same way if they were brining her hay or just being near her in her stable and rugging her when she is tied up on the yard which we have gone back to doing is not causing any problems. 

We are havimng a similar dilemma about barefoot. Jenny's shoes are off and Izzy wants them back on as people are telling her ponies need shoes. At the moment I am winning that one!


----------



## Ambers Echo (2 October 2018)

On a slightly different note, at pony club camp in spring all the campers were told their ponies needed rugs in their stables at night! (The same pony club that peddles the myth about scraping after hosing to avoid super-heating the ponies). How do I combat the over-rugging mind-set when up against that kind of rubbish? Is there any kind of curriculum that PC teaches to? And if so who oversees it/updates it because I really object to my kids being taught things that are at best just unnecessary and at worst may lead to mismanagement like over-rugging.


----------



## Pearlsasinger (2 October 2018)

Ah! I hadn't realised that your girls are so old and I do appreciate that it is difficult on a livery yard where other people do things differently (even if they are incorrect).  I used to have a TBxWelsh mare who, when we first got her,  was very proud of her food, especially around people, and also objected to rugging, girthing.  We found, eventually, that she was in pain and when we got that sorted out she had the sweetest temperament ever.  I'm glad that you are able to manage Ginny so that you are all safe during her rehab.
As for the shoes, I guess you pay the bills!


----------



## Pearlsasinger (2 October 2018)

Ambers Echo said:



			On a slightly different note, at pony club camp in spring all the campers were told their ponies needed rugs in their stables at night! (The same pony club that peddles the myth about scraping after hosing to avoid super-heating the ponies). How do I combat the over-rugging mind-set when up against that kind of rubbish? Is there any kind of curriculum that PC teaches to? And if so who oversees it/updates it because I really object to my kids being taught things that are at best just unnecessary and at worst may lead to mismanagement like over-rugging.
		
Click to expand...


I don't understand how this over-rugging myth has arisen in 'official' circles.  I understand the power of marketting, especially over teenage or novice owners but I was taught as a child by 'old school' instructors that unclipped equines keep themselves warm so long as they are fed appropriately and have shelter in the worst weather and would have expected that knowledge and attitude to have been passed down to up-coming instructors.  Weird isn't it?

Of course in those days, New Zealand rugs were not particularly attractive and were heavy to put on, so we weren't desperate to dress ponies up in them!


----------



## Hack4fun (2 October 2018)

I'm afraid some posters in this thread are not understanding the laws of physics. All surfaces radiate heat - the amount of heat they radiate varies with the 4th power of the temperature measured in a scale called Kelvin. This is the Stefan-Boltzmann law of black body radiation. Those who want some gory details will find them here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stefan–Boltzmann_law. A horse will lose heat during the winter - the horse is warmer than the walls of its stable so the horse radiates more heat than the walls - there is a transfer of radiant heat. This has nothing to do with air temperature and everything to do with the surface temperature of the stable walls and the surface temperature of the horse.

Radiant heat is the same reason it gets cold on a clear night. The earth is warmer than deep space so it loses heat at night by radiation. The sun is warmer than the earth so the earth gains heat during the day. Desserts are the classic example - very very hot during the day and quite cold at night. Camels are exceptionally well adapted to cope with this temperature swing. 

Is radiation the only source of heat loss? Of course not. Heat is transferred by convection to the surrounding air so a low air temperature will cool a horse. Heat is lost by evaporation (which is why we sweat), drinking cold water and even conduction. Conduction is when a hot body is in contact with a cold one.Metal feels cold in winter because it has high conduction so there is a high transfer of heat. 

All these things make us unreliable thermometers - how cold we feel is not a reliable way of knowing the temperature. If I was to go outside on a wet winter day with only a thin shirt I will feel very very cold. The same air temperature on a still day when I am exercising will leave me feeling comfortable. The temperature is the same in both cases. 'windchill' is the term often used to describe how we perceive temperature compared to the actual temperature.

The science of heat is a complex subject and is one of the great scientific accomplishments of the 19th century physics. 

Sorry for the physics lesson. I like to ask which came first - the horse, stable or rug?


----------



## Dr David Marlin (2 October 2018)

DabDab said:



			He's possibly not explaining very well, but is talking about thermal radiation/thermal infared, rather than heat transfer through convection or conduction. It passes from one body to another no matter the surrounding air temperature.

But of course this has very little impact when the air temperature is cold and therefore the greater thermal insulation properties mean that the heat that has been transferred from horse to walls does not then disappear instantly out into the outside air. Breeze blocks hold the temperature in, even if they can't heat transfer back in the horse's direction due to their emissivity. If that makes sense?
		
Click to expand...

I do specifically refer to radiation as opossed to convection or conduction to be fair!


----------



## Dr David Marlin (2 October 2018)

Hack4fun said:



			I'm afraid some posters in this thread are not understanding the laws of physics. All surfaces radiate heat - the amount of heat they radiate varies with the 4th power of the temperature measured in a scale called Kelvin. This is the Stefan-Boltzmann law of black body radiation. Those who want some gory details will find them here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stefanâ€“Boltzmann_law. A horse will lose heat during the winter - the horse is warmer than the walls of its stable so the horse radiates more heat than the walls - there is a transfer of radiant heat. This has nothing to do with air temperature and everything to do with the surface temperature of the stable walls and the surface temperature of the horse.

Radiant heat is the same reason it gets cold on a clear night. The earth is warmer than deep space so it loses heat at night by radiation. The sun is warmer than the earth so the earth gains heat during the day. Desserts are the classic example - very very hot during the day and quite cold at night. Camels are exceptionally well adapted to cope with this temperature swing.

Is radiation the only source of heat loss? Of course not. Heat is transferred by convection to the surrounding air so a low air temperature will cool a horse. Heat is lost by evaporation (which is why we sweat), drinking cold water and even conduction. Conduction is when a hot body is in contact with a cold one.Metal feels cold in winter because it has high conduction so there is a high transfer of heat.

All these things make us unreliable thermometers - how cold we feel is not a reliable way of knowing the temperature. If I was to go outside on a wet winter day with only a thin shirt I will feel very very cold. The same air temperature on a still day when I am exercising will leave me feeling comfortable. The temperature is the same in both cases. 'windchill' is the term often used to describe how we perceive temperature compared to the actual temperature.

The science of heat is a complex subject and is one of the great scientific accomplishments of the 19th century physics.

Sorry for the physics lesson. I like to ask which came first - the horse, stable or rug?
		
Click to expand...

Thank you  The Dunning-Kruger effect is clearly alive and kicking on H&H Forum


----------



## ycbm (2 October 2018)

Hack4fun said:



			I'm afraid some posters in this thread are not understanding the laws of physics. All surfaces radiate heat - the amount of heat they radiate varies with the 4th power of the temperature measured in a scale called Kelvin. This is the Stefan-Boltzmann law of black body radiation. Those who want some gory details will find them here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stefanâ€“Boltzmann_law. A horse will lose heat during the winter - the horse is warmer than the walls of its stable so the horse radiates more heat than the walls - there is a transfer of radiant heat. This has nothing to do with air temperature and everything to do with the surface temperature of the stable walls and the surface temperature of the horse.

Radiant heat is the same reason it gets cold on a clear night. The earth is warmer than deep space so it loses heat at night by radiation. The sun is warmer than the earth so the earth gains heat during the day. Desserts are the classic example - very very hot during the day and quite cold at night. Camels are exceptionally well adapted to cope with this temperature swing.

Is radiation the only source of heat loss? Of course not. Heat is transferred by convection to the surrounding air so a low air temperature will cool a horse. Heat is lost by evaporation (which is why we sweat), drinking cold water and even conduction. Conduction is when a hot body is in contact with a cold one.Metal feels cold in winter because it has high conduction so there is a high transfer of heat.

All these things make us unreliable thermometers - how cold we feel is not a reliable way of knowing the temperature. If I was to go outside on a wet winter day with only a thin shirt I will feel very very cold. The same air temperature on a still day when I am exercising will leave me feeling comfortable. The temperature is the same in both cases. 'windchill' is the term often used to describe how we perceive temperature compared to the actual temperature.

The science of heat is a complex subject and is one of the great scientific accomplishments of the 19th century physics.

Sorry for the physics lesson. I like to ask which came first - the horse, stable or rug?
		
Click to expand...


The horse is not a planet or a fusion reactor producing unimaginable amounts of heat.

The horse is a living being which creates body heat. It does not spend all day sucking up heat from the sun and  then releasing it when the sun is down. It creates heat constantly, and that heat is dispersed into the air constantly irrespective of what temperature the walls are surrounding the air the horse is stood in. Any horse does not radiate any more heat if a wall is cold or hot. It radiates the amount of heat necessary to keep its core body temperature stable. And that depends only on how much heat it is losing into the air. 

The argument fails even before you add the relative insulating properties of thick stone and thin wood, and the ability of a stone wall to collect heat from the sun during the day and radiate it out overnight, where the radiating really does count, like in a storage radiator (which has a block of stone in it to do exactly that).

In terms of advice about rugging, this matters. Stone walls feel colder than wood ones even at the same temperature. People are, in general, already rugging too much. They do not need advice that their horse is likely to be colder if it is in a stone stable. It's quite simply advice that should be reversed.


----------



## Dr David Marlin (2 October 2018)

ycbm said:



			David, a horse is not a fusion reactor.  Horses lose heat into the surrounding air. The amount of heat a horse loses  is unaffected by any surface that is around that at air.  The fact that a wall itself is warm or cold does not alter the amount of heat lost by the horse, only the air temperature.

I live in a stone building with walls two feet thick. So do my horses. They air inside them is cooler in summer and warmer in winter than wood ones, and I rug accordingly.

If you are going to go all physics on us, you really do need to include the heating effect of the horse on the air around it and the difference in insulation properties of wood and stone to keep that heat inside the stable with the horse, and the thermal inertia which  means thick stone walls release heat into cooler air and cool hotter air much more effectively than a thin piece of wood.

You spoiled a really good argument with nonsense physics which isn't right in terms of horse rugging, and are making it worse by arguing about it.
		
Click to expand...

You could not be more wrong  Have a read of some of the other comments by people who understand physics.  Have a look at the Dunning-Kruger principle


----------



## Dr David Marlin (2 October 2018)

Apparently, I have "spoilt" the thread by discussing science, at least according to YCBM. 

Is this the view of most people?


----------



## Dr David Marlin (2 October 2018)

ycbm said:



			David, a horse is not a fusion reactor.  Horses lose heat into the surrounding air. The amount of heat a horse loses  is unaffected by any surface that is around that at air.  The fact that a wall itself is warm or cold does not alter the amount of heat lost by the horse, only the air temperature.

I live in a stone building with walls two feet thick. So do my horses. They air inside them is cooler in summer and warmer in winter than wood ones, and I rug accordingly.

If you are going to go all physics on us, you really do need to include the heating effect of the horse on the air around it and the difference in insulation properties of wood and stone to keep that heat inside the stable with the horse, and the thermal inertia which  means thick stone walls release heat into cooler air and cool hotter air much more effectively than a thin piece of wood.

You spoiled a really good argument with nonsense physics which isn't right in terms of horse rugging, and are making it worse by arguing about it.
		
Click to expand...

Why not come on my Facebook page @DrDavidMArlin and debate your views? You may find its a little uncomfortable though as there are some very bright and knowledgeable people on there


----------



## Lindylouanne (2 October 2018)

Dr David Marlin said:



			Apparently, I have "spoilt" the thread by discussing science, at least according to YCBM.

Is this the view of most people?
		
Click to expand...

It hasn't spoilt the thread for me at all but I had already seen the post as I follow your FB page. I refuse to over rug and my two ponies (a Connie and a WB) are out at night, naked and will stay that way until it either pours with rain or they are clipped. Both are starting to sport lovely winter coats which in the mornings is standing up trapping the heat around them as nature intended.


----------



## KautoStar1 (2 October 2018)

Dr David Marlin said:



			Apparently, I have "spoilt" the thread by discussing science, at least according to YCBM.

Is this the view of most people?
		
Click to expand...


No.  Don't worry she could start a row in an empty room.  And instead of accepting she is wrong and has misunderstood she just keeps digging the hole and throwing herself in.


----------



## ester (2 October 2018)

Dr David Marlin said:



			Why not come on my Facebook page @DrDavidMArlin and debate your views? You may find its a little uncomfortable though as there are some very bright and knowledgeable people on there 

Click to expand...

oi there's some bright and knowledgeable people here too .


----------



## Hack4fun (2 October 2018)

Horses are a thermochemical reactor. They produce heat from chemical reactions. 

There is a phenomena that could be called thermal inertia - it is how storage heaters work. Thick walls take longer to warm up than thin ones because they have greater heat capacity. In the same way they take longer to cool down. That's why your house may feel cool on a hot summer's day - it has not had enough time to reach thermal equilibrium. That won't be the case in protracted hot or cold spells. A thermometer is needed to measure the temperature. If the top half of the stable door is open, then air movement will have a major impact on air temperature and that will impact on the temperature of the surface of the stable walls. It is this surface temperature that determines radiative properties, not the bulk temperature. 

There is also heat conduction through walls, and to the floor, and heat is transported through air movements. The mathematics of heat transfer are surprisingly fierce. 

A simple thought experiment shows that heat transfer is influenced by the temperature of surfaces surrounding air. If it was only air temperature, an electric grill or toaster could not work. One could stand next to a whole wall of electric heaters - the type with a hot bar - and not be burnt. 

Heat transfer is complex. Our perceptions of temperature are not a reliable way to assess heat gain or loss, and thermoregulation and heat transfer involving horses is completely different from people.


----------



## Dr David Marlin (2 October 2018)

KautoStar1 said:



			No.  Don't worry she could start a row in an empty room.  And instead of accepting she is wrong and has misunderstood she just keeps digging the hole and throwing herself in.
		
Click to expand...


----------



## Pearlsasinger (2 October 2018)

KautoStar1 said:



			No.  Don't worry she could start a row in an empty room.  And instead of accepting she is wrong and has misunderstood she just keeps digging the hole and throwing herself in.
		
Click to expand...


In fact, I'm beginning to feel a sense of deja vu.  Haven't we been here before?  Or perhaps it was a different expert who didn't know as much as ycbm/google?


----------



## Dr David Marlin (2 October 2018)

ester said:



			oi there's some bright and knowledgeable people here too .
		
Click to expand...

I didn't mean it to come across that way!  There have been some very good comments! Just not all


----------



## Dr David Marlin (2 October 2018)

KautoStar1 said:



			No.  Don't worry she could start a row in an empty room.  And instead of accepting she is wrong and has misunderstood she just keeps digging the hole and throwing herself in.
		
Click to expand...

I does amuse me. Start arguing with the science by using science, then when she feels she is losing the argument, start saying that science is spoiling it - fairly transparent behaviour!


----------



## Pearlsasinger (2 October 2018)

ester said:



			oi there's some bright and knowledgeable people here too .
		
Click to expand...




Dr David Marlin said:



			I didn't mean it to come across that way!  There have been some very good comments! Just not all 

Click to expand...


Well it made me laugh!


----------



## ester (2 October 2018)

get you and your smiley PaS lol


----------



## Pearlsasinger (2 October 2018)

Hey, ester, are you trying to say that I'm a technophobe?

I must admit that it took me a while to find them!


----------



## Apercrumbie (2 October 2018)

Perhaps a better question on this heat transfer issue would be: what proportion of heat loss comes about from convective heat loss (ie to the air surrounding) and what proportion from radiant heat loss? I would make an educated (though not expert!) guess that the former is larger.


----------



## Dr David Marlin (2 October 2018)

apercrumbie said:



			Perhaps a better question on this heat transfer issue would be: what proportion of heat loss comes about from convective heat loss (ie to the air surrounding) and what proportion from radiant heat loss? I would make an educated (though not expert!) guess that the former is larger.
		
Click to expand...

Good question! It would depend on a lot of factors - for radiant loss, distance from walls, temperature difference, surface area. For convective loss - temp difference, surface area, air movement. Its partly why we have moved to using the WBGT index to quantify thermal environmental stress as opposed to temp or temp and RH alone as these can be misleading. The WBGT index accounts for T, RH, wind and radiant load.


----------



## DabDab (2 October 2018)

Dr David Marlin said:



			I do specifically refer to radiation as opossed to convection or conduction to be fair! 

Click to expand...

Yes. But sometimes you have to explain things in a slightly different way if it seems someone hasn't grasped the point you were making. So I was making the implicit in your article, explicit in my post.


----------



## Denbob (2 October 2018)

I've been positively cruel according to some, Denzel (a chunky Irish sort who holds weight like nobody's business) only saw a lightweight when it rained horrendously. He stayed naked during the snow and was absolutely fine. However this year we've moved onto clay and for him to stay in work and for me to stay sane he may need to be clipped and rugged - my worst nightmare as he has very little respect for electric fencing as is.

Can't contribute on the science front - kettle makes water warm for coffee and fridge makes wine cold is about as far as my understanding of heat transfer is prepared to go!


----------



## JulesRules (2 October 2018)

Dr David Marlin said:



			Apparently, I have "spoilt" the thread by discussing science, at least according to YCBM.

Is this the view of most people?
		
Click to expand...

I started the thread so I get to decide if it's spoiled ðŸ˜œ and the answer is definitely not. I like to understand things well enough to explain them to others and the scientific explanations are interesting.

I'm a minimal rugger,   but then again I have a Highland Pony and a hardy furry Polish bred coloured who both live on fresh air. I can confidently say that if I owned the big cob in the next stable along he would not have been tucked up in his stable wearing a thick stable rug with a neck last night,  he would be out naked with mine!


----------



## Hack4fun (2 October 2018)

Mine are out naked too 24/7, and looking very happy and full of life. I am looking forward to the winter coats coming through and seeing them wrap themselves up in their natural anoraks.


----------



## Surbie (2 October 2018)

Any chance of an old-fashioned link? My version of the new forum refuses to show anything embedded, I just get white space. Would love to share it to my yard's FB page.

I wish mine could stay out 24/7 but that's not available anywhere where I live. He's tucked up in a stable at night and I will be holding off rugging till his ears tell me he's cold. Unless it's horizontal rain all day he is going out nekkid as soon as the midgies are dead!


----------



## scats (2 October 2018)

Iâ€™ll be honest, physics make sure my head hurt, so Iâ€™m not going to pretend I know anything about temperatures and walls and radiating heat... but I do know that my fit and healthy young mares are currently unrugged and will remain unrugged until they are fully clipped in a few weeks, when they will wear 50g filled lightweights.  Once we hit the depths of winter, they go to 100g fills.

Mine havenâ€™t seen a rug since early April... theyâ€™ll probably run a mile when I bring them out!


----------



## JFTDWS (2 October 2018)

My ponies are roughing it this year - no stables, no rugs, just plenty of grass and natural shelter.  If hell freezes over, I may consider sticking a rug on them.  The mare hasn't seen more than a rain sheet in the worst of the wind and rain so far - it'll have to drop spectacularly for me to consider anything else as nobody has told her she isn't a nuclear reactor...


----------



## Tiddlypom (2 October 2018)

ester said:



			oi there's some bright and knowledgeable people here too .
		
Click to expand...

Indeed there are, and funnily enough many of them don't feel the need to browbeat folk in a pompous and arrogant way. If all knowledgeable folk posted on here in the arrogant manner of 'Don't you know who I am' Dr David Marlin, this place would not be the mostly supportive environment that it is now.

It's quite possible to get your point across without resorting to attempts at humiliation. I actually enjoy reading the good dr's offerings on FB. It's as if he has a personality transplant when he comes on here.


----------



## only_me (2 October 2018)

There is a Facebook page I follow that makes me cringe with just how much they rug their horses. Tbh Iâ€™m surprised that they can move with the amount they have on, usually a minimum of 3 rugs! So itâ€™s not just the tog of each rug either that would affect over rugging, the amount of rugs on will increase weight. 

I have a bucas rug, which is 300g. Horse has worn it when was -9 to around 10-12 degrees yet each time when checked was warm, not cold or not hot. The temperature changes were dramatic from night to day and unfortunately I work during the day so rugs arenâ€™t changed. This rug has been amazing though and he has never sweated up - why is that?
The rug has a half fleece lining so bottom half of rug is not filled, would that make the difference?


----------



## MyBoyChe (2 October 2018)

Ill throw myself to the dogs then and admit that my highland has been fully clipped 3 times since August and is still out 24/7 naked.  He has lots of natural shelter in his field and we live in Bucks, not the Highlands but not once have I found him even remotely cold, tucked up or miserable.  He did wear a light sheet on the 1 night about a week ago when we were predicted a much colder night but with temperatures back in high single figures at night this week he is back to "au natural".  He is in the minority already on our yard, most are rugged already overnight, some in the daytime too!


----------



## ycbm (2 October 2018)

Dr David Marlin said:



			Apparently, I have "spoilt" the thread by discussing science, at least according to YCBM.

Is this the view of most people?
		
Click to expand...


I did not say you had spoilt the thread. I said you had spoilt your own argument doing the rounds on Facebook. Which is a shame because over rugging is a definite issue and it needs influential people to speak up about it.


----------



## ycbm (2 October 2018)

Dr David Marlin said:



			Why not come on my Facebook page @DrDavidMArlin and debate your views? You may find its a little uncomfortable though as there are some very bright and knowledgeable people on there 

Click to expand...



This forum is littered with people with PhD's David, please don't be so insulting to them.

Find me a physicist who understands live animals  to reinforce your argument and I'll agree I am wrong.

Meanwhile, let's try this thought experiment.

Put a horse in a room where the air is at 15 degrees and keep the air at that temperature in a radius of, say,  two feet around the horse while you cool the walls to zero. How much heat will the horse radiate? Exactly as much heat as is necessary to stabilize the horse's core temperature to the 38 degrees it needs to be.

Now heat the walls to 50 degrees while keeping that two foot radius of air around the horse at fifteen degrees. How much heat will the horse radiate? Exactly the same amount as when the walls were at zero, because the ambient temperature round the horse has not changed.

Walls do not have an attractive force for heat. They cannot "draw heat from horses" as you suggest. The only heat available to reach the walls from the horse does not change depending on the temperature of the walls. It changes depending on the temperature of the air around the horse.

Now consider the horse standing in a nice draught free stable, with its body heating up the air around it. The horse in the wooden stable is warming the air, and some of that warmth is escaping into the cold night air through the walls and roof of the stable. The identical  horse next door is in a stone stable. That stone warmed up in the winter sunshine during the day, and is now releasing some heat into the stable. In addition, less of the heat being created by the horse is going to escape into the cold night air because a big thick bit of stone, concrete block, or brick is a better insulator than a thin piece of wood.

And for all those reasons, stone stables are warmer in winter to stable a horse in  than wooden ones.


As per my signature, I am happy to admit when I am wrong. But you are not right about horses living in strone stables needing more rugging than horses in wooden ones.


----------



## Sheep (2 October 2018)

only_me said:



			There is a Facebook page I follow that makes me cringe with just how much they rug their horses. Tbh Iâ€™m surprised that they can move with the amount they have on, usually a minimum of 3 rugs! So itâ€™s not just the tog of each rug either that would affect over rugging, the amount of rugs on will increase weight.
		
Click to expand...

There's one I follow which is similar (or possibly the same) - come winter, every single inch is covered (well, except the feet and tail I suppose).


----------



## only_me (2 October 2018)

Sheep said:



			There's one I follow which is similar (or possibly the same) - come winter, every single inch is covered (well, except the feet and tail I suppose).
		
Click to expand...

I imagine itâ€™s the same, legs are always bandaged which canâ€™t be good for them. Must take ages unrugging so can go ride! Will be interesting to see if they rug the new native the same way!


----------



## ester (2 October 2018)

I certainly appreciated DabDabs additional input. 

Regardless of how others view it I do think most people try to treat their horse as the individual it is. F has always been a hot pony and blanket or full clipped all winter and as such minimally rugged. Last winter he did the first half unclipped (and rugged) and is definitely not keeping himself as warm as he always used to. Much prefer to notice that change and act on it.


----------



## Leo Walker (2 October 2018)

Ah, now I know which one you mean Only_Me and the native native is already rugged and wearing pads and banadages to keep his legs warm.


----------



## Rowreach (2 October 2018)

This is what a local rug washing place is posting on FB:

"Hi guys make sure you get your horse rugs ready , as the wet cold nights are here. We all like to be warm and cosy in our homes, just like our horses. They like to be warm and cosy to so keep them protected. Make sure your horse rugs are re/proofed and clean."

It is really mild here at the moment, it's been between 13 and 18 degrees in the daytime, and hasn't dropped below 4 at night time.


----------



## Dr David Marlin (2 October 2018)

ycbm said:



			This forum is littered with people with PhD's David, please don't be so insulting to them. DM - I wasnt - I was suggesting that you might not be able to dominate an open discussion as you try to do on here by shouting most people down. 

Find me a physicist who understands live animals  to reinforce your argument and I'll agree I am wrong. DM - You have several on here who have already commented but you have chosen to ignore them. I've also published a "few" papers on the physics of thermoregulation in live animals myself 

Meanwhile, let's try this thought experiment.

Put a horse in a room where the air is at 15 degrees and keep the air at that temperature in a radius of, say,  two feet around the horse while you cool the walls to zero. How much heat will the horse radiate? Exactly as much heat as is necessary to stabilize the horse's core temperature to the 38 degrees it needs to be. DM - The horse doesn't have a choice of how much heat it radiates. The amount of heat radiated by the horse to the wall is dependent on the temperature difference, the surface areas and the nature of the wall material.

Now heat the walls to 50 degrees while keeping that two foot radius of air around the horse at fifteen degrees. How much heat will the horse radiate? Exactly the same amount as when the walls were at zero, because the ambient temperature round the horse has not changed. DM - In this example the horse won't radiate any heat - it will be absorbing it from the wall - that's how radiant heaters work!

Walls do not have an attractive force for heat. They cannot "draw heat from horses" as you suggest. The only heat available to reach the walls from the horse does not change depending on the temperature of the walls. It changes depending on the temperature of the air around the horse. DM - You are confusing different methods of heat transfer. Heat lost by contact with the air is by convection. Heat lost from the horse to the walls (if they are cooler) is by radiation. "Draw heat" is a figure of speech. You cant take it out of the context and claim its wrong. Well you clearly can and have.

Now consider the horse standing in a nice draught free stable, with its body heating up the air around it. The horse in the wooden stable is warming the air, and some of that warmth is escaping into the cold night air through the walls and roof of the stable. The identical  horse next door is in a stone stable. That stone warmed up in the winter sunshine during the day, and is now releasing some heat into the stable. In addition, less of the heat being created by the horse is going to escape into the cold night air because a big thick bit of stone, concrete block, or brick is a better insulator than a thin piece of wood. DM - But again, you are mixing different situations to try and support your argument. Its not just about insulation. If we are talking open stables, then the air temperature is going to be largely dependent on the heat escaping through the stable door. The radiant heat loss from the horse will be greater in a stone stable than in a wooden one. 

And for all those reasons, stone stables are warmer in winter to stable a horse in than wooden ones. DM - I think you'll find that thick stone is used in very hot countries to insulate against the heat outside! 

As per my signature, I am happy to admit when I am wrong. But you are not right about horses living in strone stables needing more rugging than horses in wooden ones.
		
Click to expand...

 DM - depends on the stable. 

" 
In Italy, building professionals often tell you that thick stone walls will keep you warm in winter. Our first geometra said so. And recently my friendâ€™s architect told him it wasnâ€™t worth adding insulation to his walls since they were porous tufa stone, which the architect claimed was a good insulator. But itâ€™s not true.

A good insulator has a high thermal resistance â€“ it prevents heat from flowing from the warm side to the cool side. Polystyrene, rockwool, and sheepâ€™s wool are all examples of good insulators. In many cases you can compensate for lower thermal resistance by increasing the thickness of material: if your insulation isnâ€™t good, just use more of it. But with stone, the thermal resistance is so low that in order to offer a reasonable level of insulation, the walls need to be unrealistically thick. 

A typical 500mm thick stone wall, for example, has the equivalent insulating value of only 15mm of rockwool. In comparison, to pass building regs a new house in the UK needs the equivalent of 150-200mm of rockwool. The typical stone wall lets out about fourteen times as much heat as a wall in a new house. To meet UK building regs youâ€™d have to make it seven meters thick.

A 500mm wall of porous tufa stone is a bit better with a thermal resistance equivalent of 40mm of rockwool. Medium weight masonry is about the same. But youâ€™d still need a wall two and a half meters thick to achieve a good level of insulation."  https://carbonlimited.co.uk/2007/03/05/the-myth-of-stone-walls-as-insulation/


----------



## catkin (2 October 2018)

An observation from a non-scientist here, who lives in a stone house and whose ponies have a stone stable: the temperatures inside depend greatly on the weather outside.
Wet and windy = cold indoors. Dry for a few days = warm indoors. Doesn't matter if it's winter or summer - though more noticeable in winter.


My clever ponies also 'soak up the sun' in the field on a still cold sunny winter's day but appreciate a light rug outside in storms. I think we also have to be mindful of what our horses are actually doing - the ridden pony has different musculature to the one who is not ridden by dint of his training and workload. That muscle mass needs to be carefully warmed-up and cooled down so we do use rugs at times. It's the same old same old - understand how horses work and use equipment accordingly...........


----------



## Ambers Echo (2 October 2018)

Dr David Marlin said:



			Thank you  The Dunning-Kruger effect is clearly alive and kicking on H&H Forum 

Click to expand...

Wow that's a little harsh! 

No-one is arguing with the laws of physics. Just that when you are talking about a horse at 38 degrees, the radiant heat loss is negligible. So worrying that your horse is going to have the heat sucked out of it by cold stone walls is just not a realistic concern. Not unless it's lying on them! 

Also  the warmer temperatures in a stone stable are nothing to do with insulation but are to do with thermal mass. A stone stable has a far larger thermal mass than a wooden one so will cool down more slowly overnight. Equally it will warm up more slowly in the morning. This is the principle by which storage heaters work: heat up a pile of bricks overnight while electricity is cheaper and then those bricks will lose that heat slowly through the day. You don't make storage heaters out of wood. 

Ycbm you don't need a thought experiement - you can run the equations to work out the radiant heat loss from a 38 degree horse to a cold stone wall. Any takers?


----------



## Rowreach (2 October 2018)

catkin said:



			I think we also have to be mindful of what our horses are actually doing - the ridden pony has different musculature to the one who is not ridden by dint of his training and workload. That muscle mass needs to be carefully warmed-up and cooled down so we do use rugs at times. It's the same old same old - understand how horses work and use equipment accordingly...........
		
Click to expand...

But that requires common sense.


----------



## JFTDWS (2 October 2018)

Rowreach said:



			But that requires common sense.
		
Click to expand...

Which is about as common as a not very common thing, after all...


----------



## ester (2 October 2018)

Totally agree re. harsh AE. I'm not sure why it seems impossible to have an intelligent discussion with also intelligent people on a forum instead of facebook .

ps what if they are scratching their bum on it, that is the only wall contact ours have , lets bring a bit of friction into the mix too eh


----------



## Tiddlypom (2 October 2018)

Oh wow, I've just looked up the Dunning-Kruger effect. How effing patronising and superior. 

_In the field of psychology, the *Dunningâ€“Kruger effect* is a cognitive bias in which people of low ability have illusory superiority and mistakenly assess their cognitive ability as greater than it is. The cognitive bias of illusory superiority comes from the inability of low-ability people to recognize their lack of ability. Without the self-awareness of metacognition, low-ability people cannot objectively evaluate their actual competence or incompetence.[1]
_


----------



## Dr David Marlin (2 October 2018)

Ambers Echo said:



			Wow that's a little harsh!

No-one is arguing with the laws of physics. Just that when you are talking about a horse at 38 degrees, the radiant heat loss is negligible. So worrying that your horse is going to have the heat sucked out of it by cold stone walls is just not a realistic concern. Not unless it's lying on them!

Also  the warmer temperatures in a stone stable are nothing to do with insulation but are to do with thermal mass. A stone stable has a far larger thermal mass than a wooden one so will cool down more slowly overnight. Equally it will warm up more slowly in the morning. This is the principle by which storage heaters work: heat up a pile of bricks overnight while electricity is cheaper and then those bricks will lose that heat slowly through the day. You don't make storage heaters out of wood.

Ycbm you don't need a thought experiement - you can run the equations to work out the radiant heat loss from a 38 degree horse to a cold stone wall. Any takers?
		
Click to expand...

Dunning Kruger effect comment was not directed at the majority of people. Just one person. 
For a horse at 38Â°C and a stone wall of say 5Â°C the heat loss by radiation is not negligible. If it's lying on them then its conduction not radiation.


----------



## Dr David Marlin (2 October 2018)

And this is the reason I generally avoid the H&H Forum


----------



## Tiddlypom (2 October 2018)

Dr David Marlin said:



			Dunning Kruger effect comment was not directed at the majority of people. Just one person.
		
Click to expand...

You really are a nasty piece of work, aren't you .


----------



## ester (2 October 2018)

In which case direct it to that person. I genuinely don't understand why I manage to join in interesting discussions with you/others on your facebook page about your posts but something happens when it's on here.


----------



## Tiddlypom (2 October 2018)

Dr David Marlin said:



			And this is the reason I generally avoid the H&H Forum 

Click to expand...

Please continue to do so.


----------



## Rosiejazzandpia (2 October 2018)

Tiddlypom said:



			Oh wow, I've just looked up the Dunning-Kruger effect. How effing patronising and superior.

_In the field of psychology, the *Dunningâ€“Kruger effect* is a cognitive bias in which people of low ability have illusory superiority and mistakenly assess their cognitive ability as greater than it is. The cognitive bias of illusory superiority comes from the inability of low-ability people to recognize their lack of ability. Without the self-awareness of metacognition, low-ability people cannot objectively evaluate their actual competence or incompetence.[1]_

Click to expand...

I don't think this is patronising, this applies to 60% of the population at least, I fear for the future ðŸ˜‚


----------



## ycbm (2 October 2018)

For a horse at 38Â°C and a stone wall of say 5Â°C the heat loss by radiation is not negligible..
		
Click to expand...


The wall isn't 5 degrees all on its own, is it David?  It's 5 degrees because the air is so cold around it. And the vast majority  of the heat lost from a horse is lost because of the cold air on the horses large area of skin and in  it's lungs.If the horse stands still, the air around the horse, especially where it's breathing, will warm up noticeably. The walls won't.


----------



## MotherOfChickens (2 October 2018)

I live in an old stone cottage-thick stone walls and my stables are built of the same. my cottage is always blinking freezing and my stables always cool-except for the heat wave we had (much shorter in Scotland than elsewhere lol) when the cottage and stables eventually became like storage heaters and were pretty uncomfortable for several days. still, back to freezing now so alls right with the world. My stables actually can become almost fridge like and be several degrees colder than outside. I don't really care about the physics of it, I keep natives so I don't have to feed or rug


----------



## blitznbobs (2 October 2018)

Wow ... just wow... over complicating much? If your horse is cold - put a rug on it, if itâ€™s not donâ€™t... if your worried about the temperature of your stable buy a thermometer... you can get minimum and maximum ones ... I hate it when academia gets in the way of common sense ... 

And yes I say that from the prospective of someone with an alphabet after my name ...


----------



## SEL (2 October 2018)

Ok so now i understand DM's Facebook comment tonight! Had not been following this thread as PSSM horse is religously over-rugged to try and avoid a tie-up.


----------



## Hack4fun (2 October 2018)

Welcome to democracy and alternative facts *Rosiejazzandpia.*


----------



## Ambers Echo (2 October 2018)

blitznbobs said:



			... if your worried about the temperature of your stable buy a thermometer...
		
Click to expand...

 Ah but do you measure the air temperature or the temperature of the walls...?


----------



## Fiona (2 October 2018)

only_me said:



			I imagine itâ€™s the same, legs are always bandaged which canâ€™t be good for them. Must take ages unrugging so can go ride! Will be interesting to see if they rug the new native the same way!
		
Click to expand...

One of you pm me who it is?   Am intrigued ðŸ˜ŠðŸ˜ŠðŸ˜Š

Fiona


----------



## blitznbobs (2 October 2018)

Ambers Echo said:



			Ah but do you measure the air temperature or the temperature of the walls...?
		
Click to expand...

Yes


----------



## Fiona (2 October 2018)

Rowreach said:



			This is what a local rug washing place is posting on FB:

"Hi guys make sure you get your horse rugs ready , as the wet cold nights are here. We all like to be warm and cosy in our homes, just like our horses. They like to be warm and cosy to so keep them protected. Make sure your horse rugs are re/proofed and clean."

It is really mild here at the moment, it's been between 13 and 18 degrees in the daytime, and hasn't dropped below 4 at night time.
		
Click to expand...

Unless  you live in a certain frost pocket in Co Down lol....

We have had three minus two nights here already ðŸ˜£ðŸ˜£ðŸ˜£

Fiona


----------



## Rowreach (2 October 2018)

Fiona said:



			Unless  you live in a certain frost pocket in Co Down lol....

We have had three minus two nights here already ðŸ˜£ðŸ˜£ðŸ˜£

Fiona
		
Click to expand...

I hope you have some good bedsocks


----------



## Rowreach (2 October 2018)

Dr David Marlin said:



			And this is the reason I generally avoid the H&H Forum 

Click to expand...

Having just read the comments on your Facebook post, I'd say it's pretty much the same over there.


----------



## only_me (2 October 2018)

Fiona said:



			Unless  you live in a certain frost pocket in Co Down lol....

We have had three minus two nights here already ðŸ˜£ðŸ˜£ðŸ˜£

Fiona
		
Click to expand...

My car windscreen was frozen twice last week and we had frost on the field - it was cold to the point where I was seriously considering putting a 50g rug on horse as he hasnâ€™t grown a winter coat yet so isnâ€™t ready for such cold temps yet. I decided against it though as he is quite fat so can use a bit of it to keep him warm lol


----------



## Hack4fun (2 October 2018)

"Put a horse in a room where the air is at 15 degrees and keep the air at that temperature in a radius of, say, two feet around the horse while you cool the walls to zero. How much heat will the horse radiate? Exactly as much heat as is necessary to stabilize the horse's core temperature to the 38 degrees it needs to be."

This is not correct. The horse generates heat and loses it through conduction, radiation, convection and evaporation and manages its metabolism so that it maintains a constant 38C (although its peripheral areas can be at a different temperature) 

"Now heat the walls to 50 degrees while keeping that two foot radius of air around the horse at fifteen degrees. How much heat will the horse radiate? Exactly the same amount as when the walls were at zero, because the ambient temperature round the horse has not changed."

If we are talking about radiation alone, then the important thing to understand is that all surfaces emit and absorb radiation. The 50C surface will be emitting a lot more than the 0C surface, and the horse will be absorbing that so the temperature of the horse's coat will rise. This has nothing to do with air temperature. It is why an electric fire feels warm even when the air temperature is cold, it is why grills and toasters work and things cook differently from baking in the oven.

"Walls do not have an attractive force for heat. They cannot "draw heat from horses" as you suggest. The only heat available to reach the walls from the horse does not change depending on the temperature of the walls. It changes depending on the temperature of the air around the horse." 

I hope I have explained that. The term "draw" is used because the net effect of radiation is that heat transfers from the warm horse to the cold wall. 

"Now consider the horse standing in a nice draught free stable, with its body heating up the air around it. The horse in the wooden stable is warming the air, and some of that warmth is escaping into the cold night air through the walls and roof of the stable. The identical horse next door is in a stone stable. That stone warmed up in the winter sunshine during the day, and is now releasing some heat into the stable. In addition, less of the heat being created by the horse is going to escape into the cold night air because a big thick bit of stone, concrete block, or brick is a better insulator than a thin piece of wood."

I think this has already been explained. All this assumes thermal equilibrium. If there is not thermal equilibrium then things are different. A great thick stone wall has lots of thermal inertia and so will take a lot longer to warm up than a wooden wall - this has nothing to do with insulation. It contributes to the reason why stone houses feel cooler on hot summer days. (We could talk about the warm horse creating a convection current so the air is warmer at the top of this hypothetical draught-free stable than at the bottom, and the significant of heat loss through the roof. We could also ask whether the cold walls generate condensation and what happens to the associated latent heat, but that is a whole new thread we had best avoid.)

By the way, I do have am a physicist, have a PhD and keep animals. I do know my science, and so does Dr M.


----------



## MotherOfChickens (2 October 2018)

Rowreach said:



			Having just read the comments on your Facebook post, I'd say it's pretty much the same over there.
		
Click to expand...

Agreed.someone is wrong on the internet? Big deal-move on. Resorting to bitching across different social media platforms should be beneath adults.


----------



## DabDab (2 October 2018)

SEL said:



			Ok so now i understand DM's Facebook comment tonight! Had not been following this thread as PSSM horse is religously over-rugged to try and avoid a tie-up.
		
Click to expand...

Yeah, that's why I didn't read initially either. I have one horse who is over rugged because long, heart wrenching experience with him has taught me that he needs to be, one gets some rugging because she grows no coat and without the rug I'd be taking out another mortgage to feed her, and one grows a shagpile carpet every winter so gets no rug as I can't imagine anyone rugging such a hairy beast. They all live in the same stables though ðŸ˜‰


----------



## ycbm (2 October 2018)

Sorry guys, I know you're sick of this, but if I'm wrong I want to understand why and admit it. Please just skip this if it annoys you.

Hack 4 fun,  OK, let's say the horse is a toaster. A toaster does not radiate more heat because you put a frozen piece of bread in it than a thawed one. Why, then, would  a horse radiate more heat because one type of stable wall is colder than another?

And if it does, if the air temperature has been stable in the stable for some time,  why would it radiate more to a wooden wall than a stone wall when the two would be the same temperature, assuming all else is equal?

And irespective of the wall material, what is the relative heat loss of, say, a 500 kg horse by radiation to a wall and through respiration and through the skin to the air around it, given a air temperature of, say, zero.



Out of interest, I've been out and measured my stables.

Internal temperature of my one wooden wall 13c
Internal temperature of the stone walls. 13c
Internal air temperature of the stables 13c
External air temperature 6c

My horses are in the field one has a rug on three don't.  One in a rug will get a thicker rug later in the year, one will get a thin rug only when out, when he's clipped, later in the year. Two won't get a rug at all.  Horses for courses.


----------



## Hack4fun (2 October 2018)

Let's go over this again - it is not easy but the science of radiation is well established. The amount of heat radiated by the horse depends solely on the temperature of the horse. The amount of heat radiated by the stable walls is determined by the temperature of the walls. 

The walls also absorb the radiation from the horse (and everything else but lets keep it simple). Similarly the horse absorbs radiation from the walls. So, we have heat being radiated and heat being absorbed at both surfaces. What is important is the difference between them.  If they were the same temperature then there would be no flow of heat at all. Turning to the toaster, the frozen bread absorbs more heat than the warm bread because not because the toaster radiates more heat but because the bread radiates less. (This is all very simplistic, things like reflectivity also impacts upon the flow of heat and the ice crystals may make a difference, but lets not go there).

Air temperature has little to do with it - we are talking about the radiation from surfaces and that depends on the temperature of the surface. Well, the fourth power of the absolute temperature to be more accurate. 

Now, lets forget about radiation entirely for a moment. There are other mechanisms of heat transfer such as convection. Air temperature, and also the speed it is moving over the surface, are very very important here. Similarly evaporation rates will depend on air temperature, surface temperature and humidity. Does that help?

I don't have quantitative data about how much heat is exchanged with the environment by all these different mechanisms, but Dr M is your man for that as he is an international expert on this topic.


----------



## DabDab (2 October 2018)

Heat radiation is given out by bodies (a horse, a human, a stove, a wall, a bucket...), even if the temperature of the surrounding air is very cold in comparison to the body and there is no convection of heat into the air (although this is practically impossible in our world). If one body emitting radiant heat is in proximity to another body emitting radiant heat there will be a net effect between the two, and the lower heat emitting body will end up with a net absorption of heat.

A low heat emitting body does not draw radiant heat from a higher heat emitting body, it simply gains from the heat that is freely given out by being in proximity.

The net gainer may then convect that heat to the surrounding air or conduct it to another body that it's touching, or if it doesn't readily do either of those things it will hold onto the heat for a while as thermal mass.


----------



## blitznbobs (3 October 2018)

I get the physics but has anyone actually done the study of how much heat a horse loses and energy Iâ€™d used up in the various stables? Biology is, of course, a whole lot harder to understand than physics ... and has anyone compared the diffetenc in a real world scenario. If so could you give a reference for that study? Thanks


----------



## PapaverFollis (3 October 2018)

I can't help but think that in a real world scenario the volume (particularly ceiling height) and draughtiness of the stable is going to have a much more profound effect on the horse than the building material...


----------



## Bob notacob (3 October 2018)

Stone/Brick/concrete walls tend to draw moisture up from the ground unless having an adequate damp course (as rare as rocking horse dandruff)Evaporation from the walls tends to negate any surface heating by radiation . This creates a larger temperature gradient and thus greater rate of cooling. Wood on the other hand is a poor conductor of heat and is less prone to drawing moisture up from the ground.Thew wood will also be radiating the absorbed heat energy back at a far greater rate than stone. Enough physics, horses are mostly over rugged and its cruelty through misguided kindness.


----------



## KittenInTheTree (3 October 2018)

Hmm. I'll stick to using my own judgement regarding rugs for my lot, and leave those around me alone to do the same.


----------



## DabDab (3 October 2018)

blitznbobs said:



			I get the physics but has anyone actually done the study of how much heat a horse loses and energy Iâ€™d used up in the various stables? Biology is, of course, a whole lot harder to understand than physics ... and has anyone compared the diffetenc in a real world scenario. If so could you give a reference for that study? Thanks
		
Click to expand...

I very much doubt it. There's just too many variables. Modelling the thermodynamics is one thing, but modelling lots of different 'horses' to plug into the model is just completely unrealistic.

And even if you could reliably model all of that, when are we saying that an individual horse is cold and in need of a rug? Beyond a certain energy usage? Is that per unit or cumulative? I can be happily maintaining my body temperature but I'm still 'cold'. Is it the same for a horse?

An exercise in using science to overcomplicate an issue.


----------



## eahotson (3 October 2018)

I think that we should consider various factors.Overnight,in a field with shelter and several field mates horses huddle together for warmth.If there is ,for instance,only two of them and very little shelter they may get cold.Stables.Mostly horses are on their own in stables.No one to cuddle up to.I put a rug on my unclipped welsh last winter when it was very cold and he was much happier.The decision was made easier because their stables have grills between and they can act as a wind tunnel.


----------



## ycbm (3 October 2018)

DabDab said:



			Heat radiation is given out by bodies (a horse, a human, a stove, a wall, a bucket...), even if the temperature of the surrounding air is very cold in comparison to the body and there is no convection of heat into the air (although this is practically impossible in our world). If one body emitting radiant heat is in proximity to another body emitting radiant heat there will be a net effect between the two, and the lower heat emitting body will end up with a net absorption of heat.

A low heat emitting body does not draw radiant heat from a higher heat emitting body, it simply gains from the heat that is freely given out by being in proximity.

The net gainer may then convect that heat to the surrounding air or conduct it to another body that it's touching, or if it doesn't readily do either of those things it will hold onto the heat for a while as thermal mass.
		
Click to expand...


Thank you for taking the time to explain this DabDab. It confirms what I thought I knew what about radiance.

Surfaces absorb radiant heat that's coming at them, they don't draw it out of anything nearby.

And like a toaster does not emit more heat if a slice of bread is frozen if than if it is thawed, a horse does not emit more heat if the stable wall is stone or wood, only if the horse itself is colder or hotter.


----------



## ycbm (3 October 2018)

eahotson said:



			I think that we should consider various factors.Overnight,in a field with shelter and several field mates horses huddle together for warmth.If there is ,for instance,only two of them and very little shelter they may get cold.Stables.Mostly horses are on their own in stables.No one to cuddle up to.I put a rug on my unclipped welsh last winter when it was very cold and he was much happier.The decision was made easier because their stables have grills between and they can act as a wind tunnel.
		
Click to expand...

Absolutely true, there are so many factors.  I lowered a ceiling in one of my stables because it was high, the heat was rising and the horse was freezing. And whether your stables are damp or dry, the walls thick or thin, inside or outside, draughty or not, facing south or north. The list is endless. Fabric of the walls is not especially relevant.

Horses should be rugged according to how cold they are. Unless they are dangeriusly fat, when the cold should be used to get them to lose some weight.


----------



## Pearlsasinger (3 October 2018)

ycbm said:



			Sorry guys, I know you're sick of this, but if I'm wrong I want to understand why and admit it. 

.
		
Click to expand...

What a pity you didn't ask this in your first post, rather than telling an international expert that he was wrong just because you didn't understand what he was saying.

Incidentally, I got rather lost in all the scientific explanations, too.  I am a linguist, rather than a scientist but am definitely against over-rugging horses.  Of course if their health dictates that they rugging, that is not over-rugging.


----------



## ycbm (3 October 2018)

Pearlsasinger said:



			What a pity you didn't ask this in your first post, rather than telling an international expert that he was wrong just because you didn't understand what he was saying.
		
Click to expand...

I didn't tell him he was wrong because I didn't understand PaS.After consulting someone who studied thermodynamics at degree level,  I told people on the forum he was wrong that they need to rug a horse in a stone stable more just because it's stone, because he is wrong. He wrote "stone shelters or stables will "draw" heat from a horse, and they won't". I refer you to DD's post 117 and  my post number 118.


----------



## ycbm (3 October 2018)

So can we go back to the real point now? 

If your horse is cold, rug it unless you are using the cold as a way to reduce weight.


----------



## Ambers Echo (3 October 2018)

DabDab said:



			An exercise in using science to overcomplicate an issue.
		
Click to expand...

Yes! The original article suggested that you should consider the fact that your horse may be colder in a stone stable than a wooden one because of radiant heat transfer. That is a simple suggestion with real-world implications that means people may deliberately rug more in a stone stable because they are concerned that the stone wall is drawing heat from the horse even if the ambient air temperature feels ok. This is where posters are disagreeing or requesting clarification. I believe the radiant heat transfer from a horse to a stone wall to be so small in comparison to convection or conduction as to be something that does not need consideration when making deciosn on rugging. I also believe that a stone buildings stay warmer overnight due to their large thermal mass. Of course they stay colder longer too once cold - but again the key is the ambient air temp. If it feels fairly warm in your stone stable then you can trust that and rug accordingly.

If I am wrong I want to understand why. I do care about what my horses are lying on and I do care about the air temps that are surrounding them because of the large effects of convection anf conduction. I don't worry about the walls they are standing near. If I should worry about the walls independently of the ambient air temperature then that is important. The radiant heat transfer calculations are not that complicated - can someone do them and explain what the number you get out might mean in practical terms?

I  also don't know why this discussion has to get heated/personal. I find it very interesting and it seems others do too. Science in action with real-world validity. It's great to see people engaging with it.


----------



## KautoStar1 (3 October 2018)

Tiddlypom said:



			Indeed there are, and funnily enough many of them don't feel the need to browbeat folk in a pompous and arrogant way. If all knowledgeable folk posted on here in the arrogant manner of 'Don't you know who I am' Dr David Marlin, this place would not be the mostly supportive environment that it is now.

It's quite possible to get your point across without resorting to attempts at humiliation. I actually enjoy reading the good dr's offerings on FB. It's as if he has a personality transplant when he comes on here.
		
Click to expand...

He didn't start this thread, and he responded to YBCM's thread where she just rubbished his comments in her usual rude and pompous way, in his usual polite manner.  I don't think he has humiliated anyone, but certain people can't and won't be told because they have, across all their posts, an 'I know better' attitude.


----------



## KautoStar1 (3 October 2018)

ycbm said:



			I did not say you had spoilt the thread. I said you had spoilt your own argument doing the rounds on Facebook. Which is a shame because over rugging is a definite issue and it needs influential people to speak up about it.
		
Click to expand...

he has.  and you rubbished the science.


----------



## ycbm (3 October 2018)

KautoStar1 said:



			He didn't start this thread, and he responded to YBCM's thread where she just rubbished his comments in her usual rude and pompous way, in his usual polite manner.  I don't think he has humiliated anyone, but certain people can't and won't be told because they have, across all their posts, an 'I know better' attitude.
		
Click to expand...

I love you too KS ðŸ˜


----------



## ycbm (3 October 2018)

KautoStar1 said:



			he has, you rubbished the science.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, the science, a tiny part of the article,  is unfortunately not right. Posts 117/8.

Unless of course you believe that toasters emit more radiation if the bread is frozen than if it's thawed.


----------



## KautoStar1 (3 October 2018)

ycbm said:



			I love you too KS ðŸ˜
		
Click to expand...

I know you do


----------



## southerncomfort (3 October 2018)

blitznbobs said:



			Wow ... just wow... over complicating much? If your horse is cold - put a rug on it, if itâ€™s not donâ€™t... if your worried about the temperature of your stable buy a thermometer... you can get minimum and maximum ones ... I hate it when academia gets in the way of common sense ...

And yes I say that from the prospective of someone with an alphabet after my name ...
		
Click to expand...

AMEN!

Personally don't feel the need to apply physics to the rug/not rug decisions I make.  Most experienced horse people can tell if a horse is warm or cold or liable to become warm or cold during the night.  Do we always get it right?  Nope.  Will applying physics help us get it right every time? Nope.

Does YCBM always get things right?  Nope.  But she sure as hell does not deserve to be humiliated in the way she has been.


----------



## blitznbobs (3 October 2018)

I


DabDab said:



			I very much doubt it. There's just too many variables. Modelling the thermodynamics is one thing, but modelling lots of different 'horses' to plug into the model is just completely unrealistic.

And even if you could reliably model all of that, when are we saying that an individual horse is cold and in need of a rug? Beyond a certain energy usage? Is that per unit or cumulative? I can be happily maintaining my body temperature but I'm still 'cold'. Is it the same for a horse?

An exercise in using science to overcomplicate an issue.
		
Click to expand...

Thatâ€™s kind of my point...


----------



## ycbm (3 October 2018)

Actually I do need to apologize to David. My signature says this:




			Small Print: The view expressed in this post is my own. You should take no action on any opinion given without verifying the facts for yourself. Like all humans,I can be wrong. Polite correction is welcomed.
		
Click to expand...

And  did not correct him in the polite way that I have asked people to correct me if I am wrong. I allowed myself to carry over previous unhappy exchanges over confusion as to whether he was or was not connected with Cambridge University into this discussion in using the word 'rubbish'.  That was wrong.


Can we go back to the point?

Rug your horse if it's cold.


----------



## JulesRules (3 October 2018)

ycbm said:



			Can we go back to the point?

Rug your horse if it's cold.
		
Click to expand...

And more importantly don't rug because you are cold and therefore assume your horse is....


----------



## SEL (3 October 2018)

Pearlsasinger said:



			What a pity you didn't ask this in your first post, rather than telling an international expert that he was wrong just because you didn't understand what he was saying.
		
Click to expand...

Having read this thread end to end yesterday for the first time I actually think that's rather harsh. A query was raised, DM didn't explain his reasoning particularly well and got touchy and then it all got rather heated - on both sides in my opinion.


----------



## ester (3 October 2018)

When someone hasn't understood something all scientists should take the time to read back what they wrote to see why that might have happened and if it can be addressed. Sadly lots don't even those with higher levels of public engagement. As I said earlier I have appreciated HHOers clarifications about the topic which has increased understanding.


----------



## Tiddlypom (3 October 2018)

KautoStar1 said:



			He didn't start this thread, and he responded to YBCM's thread where she just rubbished his comments in her usual rude and pompous way, in his usual polite manner.  I don't think he has humiliated anyone, but certain people can't and won't be told because they have, across all their posts, an 'I know better' attitude.
		
Click to expand...

Erm, KS, DM's reference to the Dunning-Kruger effect was humiliating and wholly unnecessary. 


Dr David Marlin said:



			Thank you  The Dunning-Kruger effect is clearly alive and kicking on H&H Forum 

Click to expand...

 In addition, he started the following thread on FB  and has apparently relished his followers reaction to it, in which HHO generally gets a good drubbing.



__ https://www.facebook.com/233421046862124/posts/918428698361352



It's quite possible to be highly qualified in your field and to be able to impart your knowledge without patronising or belittling a non specialist audience. On here, think of Be Positive's informative and helpful posts as a lesson to us all. I have learned huge amounts off HHO, not least about footcare and feeding, but I'd have run a mile if putdowns like the above were commonplace.

The rugging debate itself is an important and valid one, which we can all learn something from.


----------



## milliepops (3 October 2018)

I do think putdowns about HHO are commonplace tbh... there were people on the BD forum who posted in the past about what a horrible place this was, for example. From memory there was a slating on CoTH on more than one occasion. I'm sure there are others.  I think this is a great place for the most part, it's a shame if people can't see the good but it's usually because they have dipped a toe in and not had a representative experience of the types of really decent folk here.

Dr Marlin does tend to write articles on subjects where people have strong "I was always taught..." type feelings about things, and so I think it's almost inevitable that tensions can run high on threads linked to his content.  Someone mentioned the PC teaching people to scrape water off their horses to avoid overheating, for example.. during the summer there were some strident posts from various people on here about the same subject and contrary to the advice he was giving. I guess it can become frustrating if you're someone who is very well versed in the science, and hard to remain patient enough to explain things in ways that people can understand without actually  compromising the science bits.


----------



## KittenInTheTree (3 October 2018)

Tiddlypom said:



			Erm, KS, DM's reference to the Dunning-Kruger effect was humiliating and wholly unnecessary.
In addition, he started the following thread on FB  and has apparently relished his followers reaction to it, in which HHO generally gets a good drubbing.



__ https://www.facebook.com/233421046862124/posts/918428698361352



It's quite possible to be highly qualified in your field and to be able to impart your knowledge without patronising or belittling a non specialist audience. On here, think of Be Positive's informative and helpful posts as a lesson to us all. I have learned huge amounts off HHO, not least about footcare and feeding, but I'd have run a mile if putdowns like the above were commonplace.

The rugging debate itself is an important and valid one, which we can all learn something from.
		
Click to expand...

I agree wholeheartedly with this.


----------



## MotherOfChickens (3 October 2018)

ester said:



			When someone hasn't understood something all scientists should take the time to read back what they wrote to see why that might have happened and if it can be addressed. Sadly lots don't even those with higher levels of public engagement. As I said earlier I have appreciated HHOers clarifications about the topic which has increased understanding.
		
Click to expand...

absolutely. tbf ycbm could have merely asked for an explanation rather than denouncing it as absolute rubbish-which was rude.  

But to then take it onto a public FB page and the post and comments that followed, well that should be well beneath a grown up, let alone a world renowned academic.

if you can't be bothered to do do public engagement well, then just don't do it.


----------



## Rowreach (3 October 2018)

I think the bottom line is that if you can't explain to (a vast number of) people that horses are not humans and generally do not require wrapping up in layers of duvets, but that some may need more (or less) rugging/feeding/shelter to suit their particular needs, then you are never going to clarify things by bringing physics into it.  Having said that, I found the physics bit very interesting.

Sadly there is no way to teach common sense, but even experienced horse people get rugging wrong sometimes.


----------



## Ali27 (3 October 2018)

What a great article!!! I only rug when my good doer native pony is clipped and then my unclipped 22 year old pony has a 50g on if wet, cold, windy! My pony currently has a chaser clip so 50 g on at night and no rug during day. In Winter, I always pop a 50g over her 100g rug at night. I donâ€™t understand why people leave horses in the same rug 24/7 when it gets colder at night! Also, when people have hairy, natives in rugs now when it really isnâ€™t cold yet!


----------



## ester (3 October 2018)

because they are old/not 100% well/struggle with muscle myopathies?


----------



## chattygoneon3 (4 October 2018)

Hack4fun said:



			I hope I have explained that. The term "draw" is used because the net effect of radiation is that heat transfers from the warm horse to the cold wall.



DabDab said:



			A low heat emitting body does not draw radiant heat from a higher heat emitting body, it simply gains from the heat that is freely given out by being in proximity.


So now Iâ€™m really confused. Are we saying that if I put my horse in a stone stable then the cold wall is actively going to draw the heat out of my horse ?
Because if thatâ€™s the case then I am going to think about how i rug my horse compared to if itâ€™s in a wooden stable.
Or is the heat lost from my horse just absorbed by the cold wall and therefore I donâ€™t need to worry?
Sorry physics not my strong point!
		
Click to expand...



Click to expand...

Sorry my points showing up under DabDab quote, canâ€™t multi quote properly, another thing Iâ€™m not good at !


----------



## Ambers Echo (4 October 2018)

Chattygoneon3 you wrote

 "So now Iâ€™m really confused. Are we saying that if I put my horse in a stone stable then the cold wall is actively going to draw the heat out of my horse ?
Because if thatâ€™s the case then I am going to think about how i rug my horse compared to if itâ€™s in a wooden stable.
Or is the heat lost from my horse just absorbed by the cold wall and therefore I donâ€™t need to worry?
Sorry physics not my strong point"


The article says yes you should consider that as a stone wall will draw heat from the horse via radiant heat transfer. That was new information to me and potentially would alter my management so I checked it out with my OH who is a Physicist by profession.  A senior scientist/technical lead who literally does these sorts of calculations in real-world scenarios all day long. He read the original artiticle. An extract  from our subsequent conversation:

"The bit about radiant heat is nonsense"
"But it was written by a professor"
"Well he's obviously not a professot of PHYSICS"

And indeed he isn't, however esteemed he may be in other fields.

His science is not 'wrong' it is just not relevant to the question under discussiuon. Basically there is some heat transfer to the stone walls but it is a very small amount compared to the amount of heat transfer to the air (convection) or to the ground (conduction). So what they lie on and the air they stand in matters (ie temps and air flow/draughtiness). The walls - for all practical purposes - do not.

The beauty of science is that it is not just opinion - generally you can prove your position. I have (twice) invited Dr Marlint to dispute the above by calculating radiant heat transfer of a horse to a stone wall to demonstrate that radiant heat transfer contributes meaningfully to the overeall heat loss, and twice he has not taken up the offer. So for now I am going with my OH and ignoring walls!


----------



## chattygoneon3 (4 October 2018)

Ambers Echo thank you for that, makes sense. I do wonder if the word â€œ drawâ€ was an unfortunate choice, as it changes the whole meaning .
I agree it would be good if DM could answer some of the queries ,especially as heâ€™s been active on the thread. Having the author of an article answering questions from said article would be very helpful , especially for a non academic like me.


----------



## Ambers Echo (4 October 2018)

They use the word 'draw' because the net effect is that the horse radiates more heat than the wall (all objects radiate heat) so the effect is for the horse to get cooler and the walls warmer - hence this can be usefully visualised as the walls 'drawing heat' even though that is not quite right. But I don't think it is relevant anyway as the amounts are (I believe) not significant enough to matter.


----------



## chattygoneon3 (4 October 2018)

Ambers Echo , thanks again , I suppose the word â€œdrawâ€ to me makes me think of an active process with the walls sucking the heat out of the horse ðŸ˜‚


----------



## Mule (4 October 2018)

Tiddlypom said:



			Erm, KS, DM's reference to the Dunning-Kruger effect was humiliating and wholly unnecessary. 
 In addition, he started the following thread on FB  and has apparently relished his followers reaction to it, in which HHO generally gets a good drubbing.



__ https://www.facebook.com/233421046862124/posts/918428698361352



It's quite possible to be highly qualified in your field and to be able to impart your knowledge without patronising or belittling a non specialist audience. On here, think of Be Positive's informative and helpful posts as a lesson to us all. I have learned huge amounts off HHO, not least about footcare and feeding, but I'd have run a mile if putdowns like the above were commonplace.

The rugging debate itself is an important and valid one, which we can all learn something from.
		
Click to expand...

I've noticed some people who are considered to ve



Ambers Echo said:



			Chattygoneon3 you wrote

 "So now Iâ€™m really confused. Are we saying that if I put my horse in a stone stable then the cold wall is actively going to draw the heat out of my horse ?
Because if thatâ€™s the case then I am going to think about how i rug my horse compared to if itâ€™s in a wooden stable.
Or is the heat lost from my horse just absorbed by the cold wall and therefore I donâ€™t need to worry?
Sorry physics not my strong point"


The article says yes you should consider that as a stone wall will draw heat from the horse via radiant heat transfer. That was new information to me and potentially would alter my management so I checked it out with my OH who is a Physicist by profession.  A senior scientist/technical lead who literally does these sorts of calculations in real-world scenarios all day long. He read the original artiticle. An extract  from our subsequent conversation:

"The bit about radiant heat is nonsense"
"But it was written by a professor"
"Well he's obviously not a professot of PHYSICS"

And indeed he isn't, however esteemed he may be in other fields.

His science is not 'wrong' it is just not relevant to the question under discussiuon. Basically there is some heat transfer to the stone walls but it is a very small amount compared to the amount of heat transfer to the air (convection) or to the ground (conduction). So what they lie on and the air they stand in matters (ie temps and air flow/draughtiness). The walls - for all practical purposes - do not.

The beauty of science is that it is not just opinion - generally you can prove your position. I have (twice) invited Dr Marlint to dispute the above by calculating radiant heat transfer of a horse to a stone wall to demonstrate that radiant heat transfer contributes meaningfully to the overeall heat loss, and twice he has not taken up the offer. So for now I am going with my OH and ignoring walls!
		
Click to expand...

That's the thing isn't it. I think experts in one particular field are often given too much credit when they give their opinions on a different matter. Perhaps that explains the often thin skinned response when people raise questions.


----------



## PapaverFollis (4 October 2018)

I had pretty much the same conversation with my husband as Ambers Echo did with hers. Is that a husband consensus? ðŸ˜‚ I only deferred to him because he's an engineer and I'm a biologist and I wanted to check my understanding.


----------



## ycbm (4 October 2018)

Husband consensus club member here ðŸ˜‚. My husband is an engineer who studied thermodynamics at degree level and is also an expert in insulation.

His response is that a horse radiates a certain amount of heat. That does not change just because something near enough to receive it is cold or hot. Or if it is one material or another.

The only thing that matters is whether your particular horse is warm or cold in their particular stable.




My last night's measurements, in an unheated room above a stable  which a large hot human had been doing manual work all day.

Temperature of wood external wall. 14c
Temperature of stone external wall 15c

Temperature of stone external wall in an area where nobody had been working 13c

Both surfaces had picked up radiant heat from the worker. The stone more than the wood. Both will release that extra heat back to the air in the room over time. The stone has more to give back than the wood. Stone stables are not uniformly colder than wood ones, and the material your stable is made of should not figure in your rugging decisions.


----------



## Ambers Echo (4 October 2018)

mule said:



			That's the thing isn't it. I think experts in one particular field are often given too much credit when they give their opinions on a different matter. Perhaps that explains the often thin skinned response when people raise questions.
		
Click to expand...

Yes! Hence the importance of anonymous peer review in academic papers to  prevent people being distracted by 'names'. I was very surprised at how DM reacted  though. Scientists disagree with each other all the time. That's why they publish a full account of how they arrived at theor conclusions so others can scrutinise what they say and either support it, question it or refute it. Ok I can see how very knowledgeable people being critiqued by Prof Google is irksome but  many of the comments on this thread were perfectly reasonable questions. Not sure why an ego-massaging visit to FB was necessary.


----------



## Cortez (4 October 2018)

Whatever: if your horse is cold, put a rug on it.


----------



## gunnergundog (4 October 2018)

Precisely!  There's an awful lot to commend the old acronym: KISS!  (Keep it simple, stupid!)


----------



## Tiddlypom (4 October 2018)

And right on cue, in the current edition of H&H, there's a three page spread on winter rugging . Plenty of heavyweight turnouts to choose from.


----------



## Pearlsasinger (4 October 2018)

Ambers Echo said:



			Yes! Hence the importance of anonymous peer review in academic papers to  prevent people being distracted by 'names'. I was very surprised at how DM reacted  though. Scientists disagree with each other all the time. That's why they publish a full account of how they arrived at theor conclusions so others can scrutinise what they say and either support it, question it or refute it. Ok I can see how very knowledgeable people being critiqued by Prof Google is irksome but  many of the comments on this thread were perfectly reasonable questions. Not sure why an ego-massaging visit to FB was necessary.
		
Click to expand...

Peer reviews don't usually involve calling other people's work/opinions "rubbish"/"wrong" though.  I can understand perfectly how annoying that might be.


----------



## shortstuff99 (4 October 2018)

Pearlsasinger said:



			Peer reviews don't usually involve calling other people's work/opinions "rubbish"/"wrong" though.  I can understand perfectly how annoying that might be.
		
Click to expand...

Well actually the reviewers often do ðŸ¤£. I've seen some pretty brutal comments from reviewers!


----------



## The Fuzzy Furry (4 October 2018)

Cortez said:



			Whatever: if your horse is cold, put a rug on it.
		
Click to expand...

Is the right answer ðŸ˜


----------



## Goldenstar (4 October 2018)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			Is the right answer ðŸ˜
		
Click to expand...

Of course it is .
I sometimes think â€˜science â€˜ stops people learning to use common sense .
If your horse  is cold rug it ,if your horses loses weight easily keep it a bit warmer than a fat one it really is very simple .


----------



## ester (4 October 2018)

same shortstuff! seems like an excellent description of what happens to me!


----------



## cobgoblin (4 October 2018)

I'm not too sure about the 1-2 togs rating for a winter coat. Are we just talking about tbs here? 

When you're confronted with a cob winter coat that's an inch thick and can be sculpted like a Chinese carpet.... I reckon that's the equivalent of wearing a sheepskin coat... And even I wouldn't want another coat on top of one of them!


----------



## Tiddlypom (4 October 2018)

Pearlsasinger said:



			Peer reviews don't usually involve calling other people's work/opinions "rubbish"/"wrong" though.  I can understand perfectly how annoying that might be.
		
Click to expand...

Indeed, ycbm could and should have been more diplomatic in her comments. She has since acknowledged this. However, Dr David Marlin has continued with his utterly unprofessional personal rants on FB, and many of the comments are still there tonight.


----------



## cobgoblin (4 October 2018)

Tiddlypom said:



			Indeed, ycbm could and should have been more diplomatic in her comments. She has since acknowledged this. However, Dr David Marlin has continued with his utterly unprofessional personal rants on FB, and many of the comments are still there tonight.
		
Click to expand...

I've just had a look at the thread on fb.... Pathetic!


----------



## Pearlsasinger (4 October 2018)

cobgoblin said:



			I've just had a look at the thread on fb.... Pathetic!
		
Click to expand...


As I don't do fb, I can only judge what is on this thread and tbh, ycbm's comments read, just as she says, like a hangover from a previous spat between the two.  But, as you say, she has acknowledged that - and allcredit to her for doing so.


----------



## Ambers Echo (5 October 2018)

Goldenstar said:



			Of course it is .
I sometimes think â€˜science â€˜ stops people learning to use common sense .
If your horse  is cold rug it ,if your horses loses weight easily keep it a bit warmer than a fat one it really is very simple .
		
Click to expand...

Isn't 'common sense' what leads people to over-rug?  My old YO rugs her horses when SHE is cold. Makes perfect sense to her!  I would worry about mine being cold if I did not understand some of the science around how horses stay warm.


----------



## ester (5 October 2018)

aren't we all supposed to be using those bluetooth thingymebobs now anyway?


----------



## ester (5 October 2018)

I'm pretty disappointed to see that Dr Marlin has been screenshotting the forum :/


----------



## blitznbobs (5 October 2018)

Any respect I had for the man has just been lost ... Iâ€™ve read the fb page and itâ€™s the most bullying, disrespectful load of tosh Iâ€™ve ever read. And he calls himself professional... and an educator.


----------



## ester (5 October 2018)

As a scientist I genuinely still don't understand the reluctance to discuss things further when things come into question, I was very disappointed at the number of actually quite interesting and informed comments when he posted about dogs during the summer that were deleted rather than addressing the points, even if you still disagree with them. It is totally alien to me to not discuss and address people's criticisms when dealing with science, IME it always happens between different research groups and when you are researching a fairly niche area you do tend to end up reviewing each others papers. I'm aware it was a BIG lesson for me to learn but certainly made me a better scientist than I was.


----------



## blitznbobs (5 October 2018)

ester said:



			As a scientist I genuinely still don't understand the reluctance to discuss things further when things come into question, I was very disappointed at the number of actually quite interesting and informed comments when he posted about dogs during the summer that were deleted rather than addressing the points, even if you still disagree with them. It is totally alien to me to not discuss and address people's criticisms when dealing with science, IME it always happens between different research groups and when you are researching a fairly niche area you do tend to end up reviewing each others papers. I'm aware it was a BIG lesson for me to learn but certainly made me a better scientist than I was.
		
Click to expand...

I had a look at his reasearch last night ... it was all very niche about pulmonary transfer during exercise mainly... I didnâ€™t see anything about heat loss in a stable or not as the case may be.


----------



## cobgoblin (5 October 2018)

Somehow I get the feeling that HHO doesn't stroke his ego enough.


----------



## Asha (5 October 2018)

blitznbobs said:



			Any respect I had for the man has just been lost ... Iâ€™ve read the fb page and itâ€™s the most bullying, disrespectful load of tosh Iâ€™ve ever read. And he calls himself professional... and an educator.
		
Click to expand...

Ive just read it too.

I never comment on these type of threads, my wee little brain just doesn't want to know. Its full of fluffy unicorns, and hasn't the space for physics/difficult stuff.  But I do read them, as I love a good / bad debate. Yes this forum has its characters, but wouldn't it be a very boring place if it didn't ? What Dr Dave did was in very poor taste, and to take it to a level where he singled ycbm out was unforgiveable, and totally unprofessional. If you have a problem with someone, take it off line and sort it.

and as for rugging ( thought I should at least try and contribute) , I rug mine if they are cold, and don't if they are not. That's as much as my ickle brain can work out. None are rugged at the moment.


----------



## ester (5 October 2018)

Asha, a stirling contribution!


----------



## DabDab (5 October 2018)

ester said:



			As a scientist I genuinely still don't understand the reluctance to discuss things further when things come into question, I was very disappointed at the number of actually quite interesting and informed comments when he posted about dogs during the summer that were deleted rather than addressing the points, even if you still disagree with them. It is totally alien to me to not discuss and address people's criticisms when dealing with science, IME it always happens between different research groups and when you are researching a fairly niche area you do tend to end up reviewing each others papers. I'm aware it was a BIG lesson for me to learn but certainly made me a better scientist than I was.
		
Click to expand...

Yeah, it's a weird one - I've often wondered in exchanges of his on here before, whether his odd resentment to discussing the principles he's writing about is something to do with being in the equine veterinary field. But since I don't know any other academic in that field....I don't know, it is weird.


----------



## Asha (5 October 2018)

ester said:



			Asha, a stirling contribution!
		
Click to expand...


ooohhh, I will take that, you are one of those boffin type scientists.  Thank you !! Celebrates with a go ahead biscuit .


----------



## ester (5 October 2018)

would you not prefer a chocolate hobnob?


----------



## blitznbobs (5 October 2018)

ester said:



			would you not prefer a chocolate hobnob?
		
Click to expand...

Actually yes - I really like chocolate hobnobs especially the dark ones


----------



## Asha (5 October 2018)

oohh no , im one of those 40stone women that was mentioned on Dr Daves page. Got to keep my weight down for my poor mare


----------



## ester (5 October 2018)

sorry milk currently as tescos version . Def my favourite biscuit option!


----------



## ihatework (5 October 2018)

We need puddicat back - anyone remember him?


----------



## blitznbobs (5 October 2018)

ester said:



			sorry milk currently as tescos version . Def my favourite biscuit option!
		
Click to expand...

Iâ€™ll settle for the milk ones ( see how Iâ€™m willing to compromise ðŸ˜‰)


----------



## Mule (5 October 2018)

cobgoblin said:



			Somehow I get the feeling that HHO doesn't stroke his ego enough.
		
Click to expand...

I think you've put your finger on it


----------



## DabDab (5 October 2018)

Oh, oh, hang about
1)who is puddicat?
2) can I have a chocolate hobnob (I'm sick and therefore needy if that helps)


----------



## ester (5 October 2018)

It's all your faults that I opened them


----------



## MotherOfChickens (5 October 2018)

ihatework said:



			We need puddicat back - anyone remember him?
		
Click to expand...

yes I do-he was another arse frankly, who thought it fun to wind people up to see how they'd react and be all superior about it. I nearly posted on here the other night wondering if DM was actually Puddicat except DM isnt ashamed to show himself up under his real name.


----------



## Archangel (5 October 2018)

ester said:










It's all your faults that I opened them 

Click to expand...

I'm guessing this is not the time to bring up the whole Vitamin D thing from his article then


----------



## ihatework (5 October 2018)

MotherOfChickens said:



			yes I do-he was another arse frankly, who thought it fun to wind people up to see how they'd react and be all superior about it. I nearly posted on here the other night wondering if DM was actually Puddicat except DM isnt ashamed to show himself up under his real name.
		
Click to expand...

DM definitely not Puddicat.
I quite liked puddicat, although maybe his sense of humour says a lot about me - not in a good way!


----------



## PapaverFollis (5 October 2018)

Darn it. I need a hobnob now. I do not require any more natural insulation though.

Today is bright, sunny, bit of a chill on the breeze up here in the frozen North... feels like 8 degrees ish. Granny horse, 22 years Anglo Arab, is rug free (apart from the natural mud rug she put on herself) and quite comfortable. The big, fat, tying up maxi cob is, however, in a 200g and I doubt she'll feel too hot. I'm sure I could simultaneously be judged for both. ðŸ˜‚


----------



## Apercrumbie (5 October 2018)

Our mini is still in his fly rug - the warmth in the daytime means they haven't gone yet!


----------



## cobgoblin (5 October 2018)

Archangel said:



			I'm guessing this is not the time to bring up the whole Vitamin D thing from his article then 

Click to expand...

Chocolate contains vitamin D3


----------



## indie1282 (5 October 2018)

'"The Great Rug Debate" will endure long after this post is forgotten and the inevitable many, many others that will follow. 

I have seen experienced owners overrug and inexperienced owners overrug. 

I have seen a Shetland on a humid rainy day in June turned out in full neck rug. The same goes with fat cobs. 

Thin horses, fat horses, old and young - most are over rugged nearly all of the time. 

Incidently, I leave my two naked as much as possible all year. They will wear a fly rug in the summer and in the winter if they are unclipped they are not rugged unless it is going to be wet.


----------



## meleeka (5 October 2018)

indie1282 said:



			Incidently, I leave my two naked as much as possible all year. They will wear a fly rug in the summer and in the winter if they are unclipped they are not rugged unless it is going to be wet.
		
Click to expand...

I really donâ€™t understand fly rugs either. I use a good fly repellent and fly cream on theIr underbits and Iâ€™ve never felt the need to rug in the summer. For my oldie that does need rugging in the winter, itâ€™s the only time she can enjoy the sun on her back and have a good scratch when she wants one without a rug getting in the way.


----------



## Apercrumbie (5 October 2018)

meleeka said:



			I really donâ€™t understand fly rugs either. I use a good fly repellent and fly cream on theIr underbits and Iâ€™ve never felt the need to rug in the summer. For my oldie that does need rugging in the winter, itâ€™s the only time she can enjoy the sun on her back and have a good scratch when she wants one without a rug getting in the way.
		
Click to expand...

Depends on the horse - Shetland has sweet itch so he has to be rugged. Our livery is just really sensitive and gets very, very cross about flies so is much happier in a fly rug. Another livery has very sensitive skin so it protects him from sunburn.


----------



## R2D2 (5 October 2018)

I keep seeing articles like this shared on Facebook, yet there are still several horses local to me out with rugs on, and its 18 degrees and sunny today.  I have had several people question why I'm not rugging yet.  It baffles me!


----------



## Tiddlypom (5 October 2018)

apercrumbie said:



			Depends on the horse - Shetland has sweet itch so he has to be rugged. Our livery is just really sensitive and gets very, very cross about flies so is much happier in a fly rug. Another livery has very sensitive skin so it protects him from sunburn.
		
Click to expand...

I'd agree with this. The two sports horse types hate flies and love the protection that their lightweight fly rugs give them. The IDx with PSSM who feels the cold and normally likes to be rugged warmly hates fly rugs so goes without .


----------



## ester (5 October 2018)

Frank is famously scabby and fly bites are one of the triggers. He broke his long-standing fly rug a few weeks ago and I suggested he could cope on the basis that his life continuation has been a bit questionable of late. summer was nearly over so we'd see if he was here next summer. 
We use tritec/deosect and power phaser
apparently I was wrong so he has a brand spanking new rambo 

I always wonder if people ever ask why owners might be doing something.


----------



## Ambers Echo (5 October 2018)

blitznbobs said:



			Any respect I had for the man has just been lost ... Iâ€™ve read the fb page and itâ€™s the most bullying, disrespectful load of tosh Iâ€™ve ever read. And he calls himself professional... and an educator.
		
Click to expand...

I'd seen a bit of general HHO bashing on FB from when he first posted about this but just been on the page and I cannot believe a respected scientist is behaving like a schoolyard bully, gleefully egged on by his fans. Very disillusioned. I'd followed his page with interest for a while but I'm steering well clear now. What a total and utter tool.


----------



## indie1282 (5 October 2018)

meleeka said:



			I really donâ€™t understand fly rugs either. I use a good fly repellent and fly cream on theIr underbits and Iâ€™ve never felt the need to rug in the summer. For my oldie that does need rugging in the winter, itâ€™s the only time she can enjoy the sun on her back and have a good scratch when she wants one without a rug getting in the way.
		
Click to expand...

I use a fly rug as my horses get eaten alive by horseflies and they are much happier in their fly rugs. No creams or lotions will stop them biting and making my horses lives a misery. 

They get them taken off overnight and can groom and scratch each other if they choose. 

Again, we all know our own horses!


----------



## Tiddlypom (5 October 2018)

It's particulary disheartening that a regular and popular HHOer has been a ringleader in winding it all up on FB.  She hasn't, so far, posted on this thread.  She has posted previously on HHO that DM is a friend of hers. I know that loyalties are loyalties, but I'm disappointed to think that a poster who I have hitherto respected should act in such a childish and unpleasant way .


----------



## meleeka (5 October 2018)

ester said:



			I always wonder if people ever ask why owners might be doing something.
		
Click to expand...

Iâ€™m glad I mentioned it. I think we must be lucky here that horse flies arenâ€™t a major problem (although there was a particularly persistent one today while I was poo picking that sent them all into their stables ðŸ™„).   

Reasons amongst people I know range from â€œThey stop the sun bleaching their coatâ€ to â€œIt saves me bothering with fly repellent, I havenâ€™t got time/canâ€™t afford itâ€.  Iâ€™m pleased to read there are some genuine reasons for using them.


----------



## Rowreach (5 October 2018)

Ambers Echo said:



			I'd seen a bit of general HHO bashing on FB from when he first posted about this but just been on the page and I cannot believe a respected scientist is behaving like a schoolyard bully, gleefully egged on by his fans. Very disillusioned. I'd followed his page with interest for a while but I'm steering well clear now. What a total and utter tool.
		
Click to expand...

I've just read through it and I think it's a bit sad how many current and former HHOers there are on there slagging us off.  But there are a couple of people who used to be on here who really know their stuff and I miss, who are the only ones saying anything positive.


----------



## PapaverFollis (5 October 2018)

Well, I quite like HHO, fwiw. I mean, I don't feel like anyone has been horrid even when I've posted really inane shite and/or really stupid questions.... the worst I've been is not responded too but usually at least one person takes pity. ðŸ˜‚


----------



## Ambers Echo (5 October 2018)

I like it too. I have so far escaped any grief from anyone and I haven't seen much biff generally. There is so much breadth and depth of knowledge that 1 or 2 egos can't just dominate and people who are a bit harsh seem to be called out on it by others which I like. I don't like mob-rule. Which is why DMs FB fandom is so unpleasant.


----------



## JFTDWS (5 October 2018)

ester said:



			I always wonder if people ever ask why owners might be doing something.
		
Click to expand...

Indeed - I've made it through decades of horse ownership without ever needing one of the blasted things.  The orange pony, on the other hand...  Same fields, same flies, but that horse is like crystal meth to them apparently.  Poor horse deserves a bit a peace, so she gets a fly rug!


----------



## Rowreach (5 October 2018)

Ambers Echo said:



			I like it too. I have so far escaped any grief from anyone and I haven't seen much biff generally. There is so much breadth and depth of knowledge that 1 or 2 egos can't just dominate and people who are a bit harsh seem to be called out on it by others which I like. I don't like mob-rule. Which is why DMs FB fandom is so unpleasant.
		
Click to expand...

The only grief I've had has been off-forum, which is why I think this place is "safer" than Facebook


----------



## ester (5 October 2018)

Maybe it's ginger JFTD? they do flock round F, the pair of them will be stood together heads over the water trough (favourite spot, closest they ever get!) and she will have much less than he does. 

I have pointed out to Mum a few times this summer how lucky we are to not have any horse flies having had plenty of them and the odd crab fly on livery. At livery though they were stabled during the day so he didn't actually wear said fly rug much those years, at home they are out 24/7 but always unrugged at sunset - advantages of having them in the garden in that you can change things at random hours (well or Mum can !) I like to pretend he's low maintenance that has always been a lie really.


----------



## Dave's Mam (5 October 2018)

This pony doesn't radiate heat.  He keeps it all to himself!


----------



## milliepops (5 October 2018)

my oranges are fairly fly-free 
I buy a fly rug about once every 5 years.. and sell it again virtually unused the next year. The last time I had one was for Millie who was getting bitten loads, but one day she got something really vicious trapped under the damn rug and that was the end of that!  I wonder if some horses just have "come bite me" pheromones or similar


----------



## ester (5 October 2018)

the pink one doesn't count . F's last one was secondhand, plan was to keep an eye out, then Mum went to the tackshop and there was a sale... lol

love those pics of Dave DM


----------



## DabDab (5 October 2018)

I have a fly magnet who is bay ðŸ˜œ although he is a very red-head type bay...he has also had sarcoids in the past and I live on the edge of a forest, so would rather use a fly rug him than risk him getting more sarcoids or one of the others getting them.


----------



## Ali27 (5 October 2018)

What really annoys me is when a horse wears the same rug 24/7! Ummm! Itâ€™s colder at night! I always make sure if mine is rugged when clipped that she has 50g on more at night! If itâ€™s mild during the day then take rug off or at least put it in lighter rug! Canâ€™t believe how people have same rug on at present when getting up to 18 degrees during day! Would you wear a coat in 18 degrees?


----------



## milliepops (5 October 2018)

unless you plan to say something to said people to find out what their reasoning is, I think it's better for one's sanity not to think about what other people do. You can drive yourself nuts.

I don't think there are blanket (lol) rules about whether it's warmer in the day or at night. Some cloudy nights are very mild and still, whereas the days might be breezy and cool. Plus my horses eat more overnight in their stables than they do outdoors. I often put a lighter rug on overnight.


----------



## Dave's Mam (5 October 2018)

milliepops said:



			my oranges are fairly fly-free 
I buy a fly rug about once every 5 years.. and sell it again virtually unused the next year. The last time I had one was for Millie who was getting bitten loads, but one day she got something really vicious trapped under the damn rug and that was the end of that!  I wonder if some horses just have "come bite me" pheromones or similar 

Click to expand...

That's my fear of the "Ride On" fly rugs.  What if something gets under it & trapped!?!


----------



## DabDab (5 October 2018)

Haha DM....No my little native ain't radiating much either:


----------



## milliepops (5 October 2018)

Dave's Mam said:



			That's my fear of the "Ride On" fly rugs.  What if something gets under it & trapped!?!
		
Click to expand...

poor girl was covered in angry lumps, I really felt like I had failed that day, and I was just doing my best not to let the horseflies get at her  you're right, it would be pretty disastrous to get a wasp or something stuck


----------



## ester (5 October 2018)

Re. the changing rugs, in proper winter I do feel a bit mean if I take a nice warm one off to replace it with cold one!


----------



## JFTDWS (5 October 2018)

Round here it's barely broken 10 during the day with scattered light rain and decent wind.  It's been a bit colder at night, but the wind has mostly dropped off and it's been dry.  Changing rugs wouldn't make sense at all.  Today, it's 20 degrees and over 10 at night, everything is naked, and thoroughly confused by the weather!

I don't worry about wasps getting stuck in my mare's ride on fly sheet.  I've seen her murder one with its stinger still stuck in her shoulder while I was riding.  She barely even flinched - because she's epic


----------



## scats (5 October 2018)

On the subject of fly rugs, Diva used to sweat dreadfully under them, which further attracted the flies.  She was far better off without.


----------



## Surbie (5 October 2018)

Ambers Echo said:



			I'd seen a bit of general HHO bashing on FB from when he first posted about this but just been on the page and I cannot believe a respected scientist is behaving like a schoolyard bully, gleefully egged on by his fans. Very disillusioned. I'd followed his page with interest for a while but I'm steering well clear now. What a total and utter tool.
		
Click to expand...

Same here. He comes across like bit of a wally there.



PapaverFollis said:



			Well, I quite like HHO, fwiw. I mean, I don't feel like anyone has been horrid even when I've posted really inane shite and/or really stupid questions.... the worst I've been is not responded too but usually at least one person takes pity. ðŸ˜‚
		
Click to expand...

Same here.

My lovely Ruggles turnout rugs arrived today. Am grateful for the recommendations on here that sent me their way. Bulky HorseFace will also be grateful when it's both freezing and raining stair-rods.


----------



## little_critter (5 October 2018)

indie1282 said:



			I use a fly rug as my horses get eaten alive by horseflies and they are much happier in their fly rugs. No creams or lotions will stop them biting and making my horses lives a misery.

They get them taken off overnight and can groom and scratch each other if they choose.

Again, we all know our own horses!
		
Click to expand...

See, I figure that as horseflies are capable of biting me though my breeches, then a bit of mesh wonâ€™t stop them. 
I do use a fly rug in midge season as it does stop them, but once the midges go I ditch the fly rug. 
Iâ€™m also not convinced that fly spray works either.


----------



## Pinkvboots (5 October 2018)

It was 20 degrees here I clipped one of mine in a vest and shorts with a ridiculous ladybird infestation that drove both of us mad, I scrubbed him with a warm flannel with peppermint wash afterwards and chucked him out, next door some horses had full neck turnouts on it beggars belief! It's really not cold at all I just don't get it!


----------



## SEL (5 October 2018)

Pinkvboots said:



			It was 20 degrees here I clipped one of mine in a vest and shorts with a ridiculous ladybird infestation that drove both of us mad, I scrubbed him with a warm flannel with peppermint wash afterwards and chucked him out, next door some horses had full neck turnouts on it beggars belief! It's really not cold at all I just don't get it!
		
Click to expand...

You've got the ladybirds too? It's weird!

DM - the big boy gets condensation on him some mornings when he's been stabled overnight. Frost on his bottom I'm ok with, but last winter it felt like he was generating his own weather system in his (wooden) stable.


----------



## blitznbobs (6 October 2018)

SEL said:



			You've got the ladybirds too? It's weird!

DM - the big boy gets condensation on him some mornings when he's been stabled overnight. Frost on his bottom I'm ok with, but last winter it felt like he was generating his own weather system in his (wooden) stable.
		
Click to expand...

If he does that in a wooden stable I would strongly advise never ever stabling him in a stone stable, can you imagine the weather fronts he could create in one of those? Actually do you think horses stabled in stone stables are the real cause of global warming?ðŸ¤”ðŸ¤“


----------



## Sheep (6 October 2018)

This has been such an interesting debate. 
I wonder if livery yards are (partly) to blame, maybe people just copy others because they are either inexperienced or because they know they'll be interrogated by others if they don't rug.
I don't follow that, btw.
For example, my boy is currently out 24/7, naked, he gets rainsheet if it is going to be wet as there isn't much shelter in his field - otherwise his coat is just doing its thing ðŸ˜ and he seems perfectly happy. Someone I know constantly makes comments to me about the weather and how cold it is etc, and I know she's dropping hints. My boy will be rugged when he needs it, could be today, could be the end of next month, just depends on the weather and his condition etc. Her horse is never out without some kind of rug on - on the surface I think she is very wrong in her approach, but her horse is older than mine, underweight etc so I would never interfere. 

Anyway. Any hobnobs left?


----------



## tallyho! (6 October 2018)

Saw someone walk a horse past in a full neck combo yesterday as I was waiting for my lesson... my car said it was 26 degrees.


----------



## DabDab (6 October 2018)

I think people just see putting rugs on as a proxy for caregiving. Non horsey visitors will often make the comment "oo, you can see who your favourites are" when they see one or two of my horses rugged and not the other(s).


----------



## meleeka (6 October 2018)

DabDab said:



			I think people just see putting rugs on as a proxy for caregiving. Non horsey visitors will often make the comment "oo, you can see who your favourites are" when they see one or two of my horses rugged and not the other(s).
		
Click to expand...

I agree Iâ€™ve had this too.  Iâ€™ve also had horsey people think itâ€™s cruel not to rug my cob when itâ€™s dry and freezing. Heâ€™s another that gets condensation when stabled. Iâ€™m pretty sure his coat standing on end is warmer than any rug l can provide.


----------



## little_critter (6 October 2018)

My retired cob is being clipped today, not a day too soon as she was clammy yesterday just standing doing nothing.


----------



## PapaverFollis (6 October 2018)

People do ask if you do something different (in general and with rugging). In my experience anyway. But I am cursed with severe "approachable face" syndrome so maybe people just ask me. They're either genuinely curious (fine, don't mind explaining to those people) or getting you into a conversation where they can explain why you are wrong (grrr) or why they simply couldn't do what you are doing. Which makes me grumpy... alright love I'm not asking you to do what I'm doing, you just crack on and leave me alone.

"Going out again?"
"Yup she needs worked everyday"
"Oh I couldn't do that, I work full time/shift work/have kids etcetc"
"Erm ok." (I didn't ask you to work your horse everyday... Just said mine needs it)


----------



## Meowy Catkin (6 October 2018)

My Mum is the Queen of 'I feel cold, so the horses need rugs'. You'd all be laughing your socks off if you'd have heard her trying to convince me yesterday that it was going to be 'at least -9 C overnight with loads of rain' and that the horses told her that they *need* rugs. I didn't have any of these problems when I had them on livery and she couldn't see them LOL! 

I have found that saying something like 'remember I haven't clipped their fur coat off' is a diplomatic response that she understands. She's not horsey so when she sees other horses that are rugged, she tends to think that mine should be too, so pointing out that they are probably clipped explains to her a logical reason (that she can't argue with) for different management.


----------



## MotherOfChickens (6 October 2018)

little_critter said:



			See, I figure that as horseflies are capable of biting me though my breeches, then a bit of mesh wonâ€™t stop them.
I do use a fly rug in midge season as it does stop them, but once the midges go I ditch the fly rug.
Iâ€™m also not convinced that fly spray works either.
		
Click to expand...

I agree except I now have a black pony, flies of all sorts love him-putting a light coloured rug on him did help reduce the sheer number that targeted him but I now use tritec 14 which kills horseflies on contact and has enabled my other sweetitchy pony to live out without a fly rug. The only other rugs I have these days are rain sheets used about three times a year and a couple of summer thematex for when I bath them if needed.


----------



## scats (6 October 2018)

A couple of cobs appeared locally in an unusual place - a bit of woodland by the start of the motorway. Apparently the bloke purchased the land and moved his horses there.  He was coming to see them daily and they looked well fed and were in good body condition.  It was amusing to see how many non-horse folk on local Facebook pages were outraged that these cobs werenâ€™t wearing â€˜blanketsâ€™ in colder weather.


----------



## Tiddlypom (6 October 2018)

Horse flies are sight hunters. Are the zebra print type fly rugs as effective at warding them off as it is claimed they are?


----------



## ester (6 October 2018)

Re. livery yards my YO did tell me one day that she thought mine had been a bit cold unrugged. 
He was, as he had just been clipped and had gone out with a turnout rug on that someone had subsequently helped themselves too.


----------



## milliepops (6 October 2018)

OMG ester


----------



## KittenInTheTree (6 October 2018)

Yikes, Ester!
I'm considering a rug for this little chap this winter. He has arthritis, so lives out, and I was hoping to mitigate the impact of the colder weather on his joints.


----------



## ester (6 October 2018)

There were much nicer rugs in the field too, his was an 8yo rhino, with a custom tail flap made out of a neck cover as it had got pulled off! I postcoded them all then!


----------



## AlinFaolan (6 October 2018)

Not read the whole thread, very interesting article, today my lad is in a middle weight, but he is a Connie without a full winter coat yet, it's 6c blowing from the NE and he's out on a hill side and doesn't need to loose weight, you can just see his ribs. He is not your typical native is a bu**er to keep weight on in the winter, but when he's got his full coat or if it's warmer tomorrow he will go down in weight of rug or be naked. Surely rugging must depend on the individual horse and the environment it lives in. Common sense aside.


----------



## Pinkvboots (6 October 2018)

SEL said:



			You've got the ladybirds too? It's weird!

DM - the big boy gets condensation on him some mornings when he's been stabled overnight. Frost on his bottom I'm ok with, but last winter it felt like he was generating his own weather system in his (wooden) stable.
		
Click to expand...

I have never seen so many the house windows were covered in them! None today though it's pouring with rain today.


----------



## Leo Walker (6 October 2018)

Mines rugged today. Its cold and wet and she was cold and slightly shivery. Shes only got a 50gm on though. Its the rain that has made her cold rather than the cold, if that makes sense!


----------



## criso (6 October 2018)

Pinkvboots said:



			It was 20 degrees here I clipped one of mine in a vest and shorts with a ridiculous ladybird infestation that drove both of us mad, I scrubbed him with a warm flannel with peppermint wash afterwards and chucked him out, next door some horses had full neck turnouts on it beggars belief! It's really not cold at all I just don't get it!
		
Click to expand...

I can't be that far from you and when I got to the yard yesterday afternoon both my naked tbs were sweating in their stable.  Meanwhile there were lots of hairy irish horses with stable rugs on. 

I have caved today and put a thin rug on the wimpy one tonight as I don't want him to drop any weight.  It was quite cold and their stables (wooden) are a bit drafty and damp. The fat one can stay naked though.


----------



## JFTDWS (6 October 2018)

2 naked and one in a rainsheet here today...  

Gosh these daily rugging reports are fascinating, aren't they?


----------



## ester (6 October 2018)

no friggin clue!


----------



## Tiddlypom (6 October 2018)

LW, yours has just lost her legwarmers and mane so will likely feel the cold more than usual atm. She looks super smart now, though 

ETA The PSSM/PPID mare is in her no neck 100g Rambo, and she was fine when it lashed it down just now with hail and all. The two finer coated sports horse types have grown just enough winter coat to be able to cope rugless in the same downpour, though I think they'd have preferred to be rugged!


----------



## Red-1 (6 October 2018)

Tiddlypom said:



			Horse flies are sight hunters. Are the zebra print type fly rugs as effective at warding them off as it is claimed they are?
		
Click to expand...

I thought it was a load of old rubbish, but when I bought my new horse this spring I needed new rugs anyway as she is smaller than my previous ones. We have horse flies with fangs here, so usually we have sweet itch ones as they are more substantial, and the lighter weight mesh ones for if it is really hot. In fact, the files bother her less in the new mesh zebra one than in the sweet itch one. There are noticeably less horseflies round her. Does not seem to work with other flies though. 

There are still some, as I think they also look for heat and expirated gasses, but still it was an improvement.

I am cutting one to make a fly sheet for riding in next year. 

I tried a horse fly trap with a black ball and upside down cone shaped fly catcher, but that caught absolutely none. I think someone else on here had better luck with glue and a black bucket though.


----------



## DabDab (6 October 2018)

Hehe, well if we're doing daily rug updates....
I did not look at the weather forecast yesterday so mine all went out without rugs. So we had two cold wet cross things this morning crowding the gate. I'm still feeling feeble so OH decided the best way to go was to just open the gate, and they both raced in to their stables. We went with them and put a waffle on each. Then I headed back out to find Pebbles who was merrily meandering around eating the lush grass by the school not sure what the fuss is all about. Tonight Dabs is out with a 200g on and Arty has a rainsheet. It's about 3 degrees here atm.

ðŸ˜ðŸ˜


----------



## Red-1 (6 October 2018)

Go-easy said:








[Content removed]
		
Click to expand...

Gosh, you re a "new member" currently showing 1 post. I guess you are really a current longer standing member who has been upset, using a new identity. Otherwise that is not a very kind post to start here.

I find that if you wish to make a point, it is better to criticise a particular thing a person has done that you take issue with, rather than do a general character attack. It comes across as more constructive and could actually help the person. IMO a character attack is unkind and hurtful to the person that it is about, whilst not being helpful to actually help the person see your point of view.


----------



## Go-easy (6 October 2018)

David Marlin see's fit the make outlandish claims on his page and simply delete comments that question his beliefs and kick off people who disagree with him, that is not science, thats the behaviour of a cult leader. Put his name into this forum and look at how he reacted when people objected to him posting a survey for one of his own products.


----------



## HeresHoping (6 October 2018)

You ought to be careful. There's a fine line between libel and opinion.


----------



## Red-1 (6 October 2018)

Go-easy said:



			David Marlin see's fit the make outlandish claims on his page and simply delete comments that question his beliefs and kick off people who disagree with him, that is not science, thats the behaviour of a cult leader. Put his name into this forum and look at how he reacted when people objected to him posting a survey for one of his own products.
		
Click to expand...

If it is his own facebook page then I expect he would remove anything he didn't like. To be fair, I only have friends access my FB page, it is quite private, but even so, if someone posts something that I find offensive, insensitive or upsetting, I remove that comment from my page too. In fact, I have removed people from my page entirely if they are not respectful to my feelings. 

If you don't like what is on his FB page I would not look there (unless you think there is something illegal or against FB regs, in which case I would report the post).

Your last comment confirms in my mind that you are a previous/current user, not sure why you would change identities, although I think this is the first time it was possible for me to form that opinion in the very first post (although it does not usually take long) of a new reincarnation.


----------



## {97702} (6 October 2018)

Please do not feed the troll.....


----------



## PapaverFollis (6 October 2018)

Ooo. Erm. Back on topic?

We had "feels like" 1 degree last night (4 degrees actual). Mine were stabled (wooden) Granny was naked. The Beast was in a fleece and a 100g over. Both were comfortable this morning. I do feel like this is the wrong way round to be rugging them. But they are fitted with the wrong whinnies too.

I wonder if there is a correlation between depth of whinny and cold tolerance.


----------



## blitznbobs (6 October 2018)

My mare feels the cold. You can tell because if sheâ€™s cold sheâ€™s a megabitch  and tries to bite you, walk on you and on the whole just be bad mannered. Put a rug on her and she returns to her usual, sweet and pleasant and mannerly self. The cob is hard as nails when it comes to the cold, he is clipped out (hunter) and still is quite happy out In the nude and gets sweaty in anything more than a rain sheet, In my experience horses do tell you what they want itâ€™s up to humans to be better listeners not better scientists.


----------



## Northern (6 October 2018)

My thoroughbred is hot, could light a fire hot. Subsequently, she is comfortable in a neckless unlined new zealand rug while most others here are still in winter combos. I've just left a yard where she was on part care, the YO told me multiple times how "cold" she was under just her canvas rug, implying she disagreed with my rugging choice! If it were up to her, there would have been a sweat puddle of horse on the ground. The same horse is already sweaty under her winter combos in the mornings! She's just shedding out her thick winter coat, no comparison to YOs clipped ponies and WBs with many (too many) layers on. Overrugging is rife here (Aus), its hovering around 7-10 degrees at night which is too warm for filled rugs IMO (majority of horses anyway!). 

Before I moved here I looked after a horse who had: a cotton rug, polar fleece rug, unlined synthetic rug, filled winter rug with neck plus a canvas over the top to stop others ripping. That was extreme IMO, considering daylight temperatures were getting up to 17-20 degrees. I did ended up pulling off some layers, but know the horse has been rugged this way for most of his life (was in his teens) and I didn't want to change too much given his owner preferred to rug him this way. Was so difficult though!


----------



## Leo Walker (6 October 2018)

Go-easy said:



			David Marlin see's fit the make outlandish claims on his page and simply delete comments that question his beliefs and kick off people who disagree with him, that is not science, thats the behaviour of a cult leader. Put his name into this forum and look at how he reacted when people objected to him posting a survey for one of his own products.
		
Click to expand...

Oooh please, please, please tell me you are the mad woman who makes Astrids Oil?


----------



## Leo Walker (6 October 2018)

Leo Walker said:



			Oooh please, please, please tell me you are the mad woman who makes Astrids Oil?
		
Click to expand...

Actually you arent  Far to literate!


----------



## Leo Walker (6 October 2018)

Tiddlypom said:



			LW, yours has just lost her legwarmers and mane so will likely feel the cold more than usual atm. She looks super smart now, though 

Click to expand...

Thank you! She lost everything not just the mane and leg warmers, although she has already grown back a really soft, fuzzy coat. Definitely not enough to keep her warm in all the rain and wind though.


----------



## Tiddlypom (7 October 2018)

Go
[QUOTE="blitznbobs said:



			My mare feels the cold. You can tell because if sheâ€™s cold sheâ€™s a megabitch  and tries to bite you, walk on you and on the whole just be bad mannered. Put a rug on her and she returns to her usual, sweet and pleasant and mannerly self. The cob is hard as nails when it comes to the cold, he is clipped out (hunter) and still is quite happy out In the nude and gets sweaty in anything more than a rain sheet, *In my experience horses do tell you what they want itâ€™s up to humans to be better listeners not better scientists.*

Click to expand...

Great post, especially the bit I've put in bold. My metabolic IDx turns into a megabitch when she's too cold, too.

This isn't science bashing (I've got the set of science A levels), but caring for horses is as much an art as a science. However, we can all learn something from science, but it has to be *good* science .

ETA, and Go-easy, please live up to your username. Many of us on here have already had their eyes opened to what DM is really like. His hard core supporters will not listen to you anyway.


----------



## ycbm (7 October 2018)

There are a couple of interesting and related bits in the article which I missed after (over)reacting to the stuff about heat radiation.  

He says that research from Poland is showing that air temperature, not light, has most effect on coat growth. That's interesting because I've read on this forum that it was light, not heat, that was more important.

The second bit is that he says that your horse might acclimatise to the colder temperatures so that after a while you can swap to a thinner rug.   But how can the horse acclimatise to colder temperatures if it's in a thick rug? Especially if the Polish research is right, and hair growth is regulated by air temperature, and you're keeping the air temperature around the body warm with a rug? 

Has anyone swapped to thinner rugs after a horse has been in a thick one for a while, even though the temperature hasn't risen? It isn't something I'd even think of unless the horse was showing signs of being too hot, and  that hasn't happened unless the temperature has risen or I've whacked up the food.


----------



## DabDab (7 October 2018)

Yes, the moulting thing is interesting....because I was always taught that it was the daylight changes that started them moulting and the temperature that dictated how thick a winter coat they grew (comparatively speaking obviously, depending on breeding). But like you say, on this forum that's not generally the understanding that is posted.


----------



## Red-1 (7 October 2018)

DabDab said:



			Yes, the moulting thing is interesting....because I was always taught that it was the daylight changes that started them moulting and the temperature that dictated how thick a winter coat they grew (comparatively speaking obviously, depending on breeding). But like you say, on this forum that's not generally the understanding that is posted.
		
Click to expand...

It is my belief that the light controls the 'when' in coat changing, but the air temp controls the how much.

My observation is that the difference in coat is actually felt one year on. For example, the year I bought my first pony he came from Hampshire where he grew a fine coat, to Yorkshire on the side of a windswept hillside, almost 1000 feet up. He came in summer, and all was well. When winter came he grew an incredibly fine coat and was cold. It was the days of jute rugs with 2 blankets under, and he was still cold. Outdoors was a canvas NZ rug, with single blanket layer. It was hard to keep weight on him!

The next year he made good his mistake - he was a hairy yak!

One yard I worked at, they had half American barn stabling and half outdoor stables. The outdoor ones all grew big coats, and were fully clipped. The first year they moved indoors they also grew big coats and were clipped, but if you left the coat and let them be a bit warm on one year, then the next year they wold only grow a thin coat and not need clipping. If you clipped every year then they always put out a winter coat and needed clipping. You had to grit your teeth for one year to make the magical no coat appear. Thereafter the winter coat is a little fuller that a summer, and if you were competing at seed it would not be good enough, but for general Dressage, SJ and even light hunting (as opposed to being a thruster), it is fine. The yard was commercial, every horse had the same rugging (exactly the same rugs down to the brand and colour).

I have applied this to home-horses too, the first year they come here they have thick coats, but I resist clipping and let them be a touch warm (before everyone gets angry, not enough to make them sweat and I don't use neck rugs), then afterwards - as in the years after -  they don't need clipping again as they have little more than a summer coat. They have adjusted to their new environment.  I also manipulate their coats by having the lights on from 6am until 10pm. 6am is first muck out and 10pm is bed time, so the stable light is on then (except while they are turned out, obviously). This seems to delay winter coats arriving and hasten them leaving.


----------



## PapaverFollis (7 October 2018)

Ooooooooo! We got The Beast in an October (the previous winter she was in Northern Ireland and probably living out without a rug)... That first winter with us she has the most spectacular beard and thick winter coat. Last winter (when her previous winter had been spent with us in Cumbria, stabled (stone) with rugs and daily turnout) she did not produce the beard or coat to anywhere near the same level! Very interesting. 

I will see how coat changes now we've moved up here... but it'll probably be next winter we see the results. They'll gave Cumbrian appropriate coats this year then... Will definitely be getting the heavyweights out at some point I imagine.


----------



## kimberleigh (7 October 2018)

My TB is in a 100g day and night here - no neck as of yet but wont be long if weather keep heading way it is. 

Rain/wind/cold mean she is very much in need of her rug 

My Connie is still naked though and will be for as long as poss, and will stay neckless regardless of weather


----------



## catkin (7 October 2018)

Red-1 said:



			It is my belief that the light controls the 'when' in coat changing, but the air temp controls the how much.

My observation is that the difference in coat is actually felt one year on. For example, the year I bought my first pony he came from Hampshire where he grew a fine coat, to Yorkshire on the side of a windswept hillside, almost 1000 feet up. He came in summer, and all was well. When winter came he grew an incredibly fine coat and was cold. It was the days of jute rugs with 2 blankets under, and he was still cold. Outdoors was a canvas NZ rug, with single blanket layer. It was hard to keep weight on him!

The next year he made good his mistake - he was a hairy yak!

One yard I worked at, they had half American barn stabling and half outdoor stables. The outdoor ones all grew big coats, and were fully clipped. The first year they moved indoors they also grew big coats and were clipped, but if you left the coat and let them be a bit warm on one year, then the next year they wold only grow a thin coat and not need clipping. If you clipped every year then they always put out a winter coat and needed clipping. You had to grit your teeth for one year to make the magical no coat appear. Thereafter the winter coat is a little fuller that a summer, and if you were competing at seed it would not be good enough, but for general Dressage, SJ and even light hunting (as opposed to being a thruster), it is fine. The yard was commercial, every horse had the same rugging (exactly the same rugs down to the brand and colour).

I have applied this to home-horses too, the first year they come here they have thick coats, but I resist clipping and let them be a touch warm (before everyone gets angry, not enough to make them sweat and I don't use neck rugs), then afterwards - as in the years after -  they don't need clipping again as they have little more than a summer coat. They have adjusted to their new environment.  I also manipulate their coats by having the lights on from 6am until 10pm. 6am is first muck out and 10pm is bed time, so the stable light is on then (except while they are turned out, obviously). This seems to delay winter coats arriving and hasten them leaving.
		
Click to expand...

How interesting.

After a cold winter last year it will be interesting to see what the ponies eventually grow this year. (They are both breeds that originate in colder parts than the balmy south-west they live in now)


----------



## criso (7 October 2018)

ycbm said:



			There are a couple of interesting and related bits in the article which I missed after (over)reacting to the stuff about heat radiation. 

He says that research from Poland is showing that air temperature, not light, has most effect on coat growth. That's interesting because I've read on this forum that it was light, not heat, that was more important.

The second bit is that he says that your horse might acclimatise to the colder temperatures so that after a while you can swap to a thinner rug.   But how can the horse acclimatise to colder temperatures if it's in a thick rug? Especially if the Polish research is right, and hair growth is regulated by air temperature, and you're keeping the air temperature around the body warm with a rug?

Has anyone swapped to thinner rugs after a horse has been in a thick one for a while, even though the temperature hasn't risen? It isn't something I'd even think of unless the horse was showing signs of being too hot, and  that hasn't happened unless the temperature has risen or I've whacked up the food.
		
Click to expand...

One year I was struggling with allergies.  He went to the RVC for testing and he went from chaser  clipped Tb wearing a hw stable rug to naked.  It was snowing and anyone who knows the RVC will confirm their stables are especially cold and drafty.  Was advised to keep him rug less when I got him back.  He was fine.    Didn't drop any weight though he could have done with doing so. Since then have rugged him as little as possible.  He got a slightly thicker coat each year the first few years I had him buy now stabilised.  He does get a thick fluffy coat for a Tb but it's quite silky so while he copes with extreme cold, it's not that waterproof


----------



## indie1282 (7 October 2018)

meleeka said:



			I really donâ€™t understand fly rugs either. I use a good fly repellent and fly cream on theIr underbits and Iâ€™ve never felt the need to rug in the summer. For my oldie that does need rugging in the winter, itâ€™s the only time she can enjoy the sun on her back and have a good scratch when she wants one without a rug getting in the way.
		
Click to expand...




MotherOfChickens said:



			I agree except I now have a black pony, flies of all sorts love him-putting a light coloured rug on him did help reduce the sheer number that targeted him but I now use tritec 14 which kills horseflies on contact and has enabled my other sweetitchy pony to live out without a fly rug. The only other rugs I have these days are rain sheets used about three times a year and a couple of summer thematex for when I bath them if needed.
		
Click to expand...

Like I said, we all know our own horses. I also have a black horse and ANY type of fly loves him. I can walk past all the other horses in their fields and none have flies on them but he is covered. My other horse in the same field also has no flies on him. 

I use a Premier Equine Multi buster which is a thicker weave and does stop flies biting through. I choose to put a fly rug on rather than him being bitten and having a miserable life. They both get plenty of naked time to groom and be horses.


----------



## MotherOfChickens (7 October 2018)

indie1282 said:



			Like I said, we all know our own horses. I also have a black horse and ANY type of fly loves him. I can walk past all the other horses in their fields and none have flies on them but he is covered. My other horse in the same field also has no flies on him.

I use a Premier Equine Multi buster which is a thicker weave and does stop flies biting through. I choose to put a fly rug on rather than him being bitten and having a miserable life. They both get plenty of naked time to groom and be horses.
		
Click to expand...

its quite remarkable just how many more flies the black pony will have on him compared to the other-wouldnt hesitate to use a fly rug on him should I need to but also very glad the other pony managed a summer without one and still has a full man and tail


----------



## albeg (7 October 2018)

Red-1 said:



			I thought it was a load of old rubbish, but when I bought my new horse this spring I needed new rugs anyway as she is smaller than my previous ones. We have horse flies with fangs here, so usually we have sweet itch ones as they are more substantial, and the lighter weight mesh ones for if it is really hot. In fact, the files bother her less in the new mesh zebra one than in the sweet itch one. There are noticeably less horseflies round her. Does not seem to work with other flies though.
		
Click to expand...

The flies didn't bother mine as much in his zebra print either, however it did seem to attract lions, and the poor zebra was savaged within about a week... 

Interesting about the air temperature thing, someone needs to tell my boy! Fully clipped (leaving legs and half head) 3.5 weeks ago as was already quite fluffy and wasn't comfortable in the heat. In either 50/100g (old rug and can't remember what it is supposed to be) now, on warmer days/nights he wore his rambo hoody and a waterproof liner, just in case there were any showers. He aims for polar bear every year, didn't notice any real difference between when he lived in overnight and now, when he's out 24/7. He runs warm though, he's in a lighter rug tonight than some of the unclipped guys, but they feel the cold and get sore/cranky.

While the guidelines are nice, they're guidelines, you have to deal with what's in front of you on the day!


----------

