# National Day Is Upon Us



## Elf On A Shelf (9 April 2016)

Which horse is getting your money and which outsider is getting a lucky 50p?!

Now the ground has softened I can see Goonyella going well. My other is Hadrians Approach. 

I'd love to see Many Clouds come in though. He should, in theory, just need s clear round to see him in front. But it's the National! Anything can happen!


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## freckles22uk (9 April 2016)

Ive got Saint Are.. Vics Canvas (well I am an artist) and Soll.. ( non horsey) BF picked Many clouds last year and I'm still not hearing the last of it   though the winnings did buy us a new tv


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## Clodagh (9 April 2016)

I just want Many Cluds to finish safe and sound and not keel over at the end.
Would like a Nicholl's horse to do well as really want to trainers championship to stay over here.


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## Elf On A Shelf (9 April 2016)

I too would like to see Nichols win as that would put the championship to bed in this country.


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## Sandstone1 (9 April 2016)

Just hope they all finish safe and sound.


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## Alec Swan (9 April 2016)

selinas spirit said:



			Just hope they all finish safe and sound.
		
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This,  well said.

The social media furore surrounding the losses has me wondering how much longer we'll have jump racing.  Just how any jump race fan can justify the losses,  and want to continue,  and we do,  would take a better pen and mind than mine.  Those of us who are avid followers will accept the risks but how we justify it in a way that will pacify the lay-person,  I'm unsure.

For me?  I want to see one of the old troopers win,  and as selinas spirit,  for them all to come home safely.

Alec.


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## AdorableAlice (9 April 2016)

I would like to see a small stable win, the domination of the sport by the big yards is boring as is a rich daddy spending 90k on the eve of the race for child to have a ride in the race. Horses are great levellers so child has every chance of inspecting the turf at the first.

Lets hope they all return safe and sound.


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## Love (9 April 2016)

Got some small bets on The Last Samuri and Silviano Conti with a lucky £1 EW on Double Ross as he's my birthday number and 100/1!

Would love to see Many Clouds win again. Praying for the safe return of all horses and riders


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## Madam Min (9 April 2016)

Hoping all come home safe. Got a few on St Are, Katenko (rank outsider, I know but just a feeling) and Many Clouds, would love to see him do it again


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## Alec Swan (9 April 2016)

Having now just had a pre-National G&T and an excellent lunch,  the DG just sent me this,  and I found it rather moving;

Alec.

https://www.facebook.com/TheJockeyClub1750/videos/1127807720583243/


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## wellwisher (9 April 2016)

Would LOVE Dicky Johnson to get his first win, but not looking promising! So More Clouds or a Nicholls horse realistically  But really just a safe and exciting race


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## Dunlin (9 April 2016)

Like many I just want all the horses and jockeys to come home safe and sound, I have had my annual flutter, I've gone for Onenightinvienna and Holywell.


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## blodwyn1 (9 April 2016)

I also hope all come home safe and sound but at least the horses are seen immediately if anything goes wrong. I have very bitter memories of holding my old mare in agony from 8am till 1.30pm when the vet finally turned up to put her to sleep.


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## wellwisher (9 April 2016)

Nervous for Thistlecrack - that weather is evil


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## Love (9 April 2016)

Only just caught the end of the 3.40 to see Thistlecrack romp home - saw him at Cheltenham, what a horse. So pleased


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## wellwisher (9 April 2016)

Wow! What a horse, he just kept finding more.  Team Tizzard in awesome form at the moment


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## Elf On A Shelf (9 April 2016)

It's teeming down at Aintree! It's going to be a very testing, tiring National.


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## Alec Swan (9 April 2016)

Having just seen him,  I've a sneaking liking for Goonyella,  but the truth is that it's a lottery,  nothing more or less!

Have a safe journey,  all of you.

Alec.


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## Equi (9 April 2016)

That was some race. Rule the world just turned on the turbo boosters and flew up like a rocket!


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## Love (9 April 2016)

All home safe too apparently. What a race


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## Equi (9 April 2016)

And all horses home safe


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## Sandstone1 (9 April 2016)

Very glad they are all safe, the winner did well. I thought the winning jockey was very whip happy though.


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## wellwisher (9 April 2016)

Fab race all home safe and yet again a "good story"


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## googol (9 April 2016)

selinas spirit said:



			Very glad they are all safe, the winner did well. I thought the winning jockey was very whip happy though.
		
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I agree. Would he have been whipping him each time he moved it to his bum?
I can't believe the horse had broke his pelvis twice


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## MagicMelon (9 April 2016)

equi said:



			And all horses home safe 

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Well amazingly they were today - except for the 4 horses dead on Thursday and yesterday.  Sorry but I stand by my opinion that the Grand National is a horrific event. In the UK, thats now 1378 deaths in 3316 days... sorry not good enough IMO.


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## Sandstone1 (9 April 2016)

MagicMelon said:



			Well amazingly they were today - except for the 4 horses dead on Thursday and yesterday.  Sorry but I stand by my opinion that the Grand National is a horrific event. In the UK, thats now 1378 deaths in 3316 days... sorry not good enough IMO.
		
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I agree 100%, although I've watched and enjoyed racing in the past. I feel the cost is too high in horses lives.


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## teapot (9 April 2016)

MagicMelon said:



			Well amazingly they were today - except for the 4 horses dead on Thursday and yesterday.  Sorry but I stand by my opinion that the Grand National is a horrific event. In the UK, thats now 1378 deaths in 3316 days... sorry not good enough IMO.
		
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With two of those being pulled up on the flat/breaking down, which we all know can happen anywhere!


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## MagicMelon (9 April 2016)

selinas spirit said:



			I agree 100%, although I've watched and enjoyed racing in the past. I feel the cost is too high in horses lives.
		
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It really is, can you imagine if this was the death rate in any other equestrian sport - there'd be outrage from the general public (and equestrian). The general public have no idea whats involved in racing though and what the true loss is.  They just think its a fun thing to bet on once in a while  Yet again, all comes down to money.


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## MagicMelon (9 April 2016)

teapot said:



			With two of those being pulled up on the flat/breaking down, which we all know can happen anywhere!
		
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Umm.. 2 somersalted breaking their necks, 1 collapsed and died, 1 yes broke down and then was put down afterwards. They're pushing these horses way beyond an animals ability.


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## teapot (9 April 2016)

MagicMelon said:



			Umm.. 2 somersalted breaking their necks, 1 collapsed and died, 1 yes broke down and then was put down afterwards. They're pushing these horses way beyond an animals ability.
		
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Were you as annoyed about the seven that died at Cheltenham? It's funny how those who hate racing seem to only come out the woodwork on National day... 

A horse can break down anywhere which is my point, and I assume you hate polo for the same reasons?


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## googol (9 April 2016)

What's it mean for a horse to break down? Excuse my ignorance


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## teapot (9 April 2016)

googol said:



			What's it mean for a horse to break down? Excuse my ignorance
		
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Do a leg/tendon irreparably - ie they're unfixable. Doesn't need to be anywhere fences for it to happen either.


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## Elf On A Shelf (9 April 2016)

Statistically only 0.2% of horses in training will lose their life each year. A very, very low number. That's far far less than the number of horses who die in their fields and could potentially wait for hours to be dealt with. 

I am interested - does anyone keep a tally of the number of horses that die on the cross country courses each year? Or out hunting? 

No one likes to see a horse lose its life and as a stable lass who has looked after a horse that I had to collect the bridle from I can assure you it is even more devastating for us! We are the ones who have lost a friend, Noble steed and trusted warrior. We take our horses to the track with pride and only ever wish for them to come home safe.


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## wellwisher (9 April 2016)

If you want to state percentages, a horse at pony club camp recently had fatal colic and had to wait 3+hrs with its small owner fully aware of what was going on while a vet could get there. That is 1 out of 20 horse so could say a 5% loss risk??  I know which animal suffered most compared to the incredibly high welfare standards racehorses enjoy.


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## Nicnac (9 April 2016)

Eventing far worse as people are killed... When was the last time a jockey was killed whilst racing?  I abhor horse deaths but still put humans above horses.

Although the GN made me squirm a few times with the falls it was an amazing race.  Loved watching the riderless horse who kept up with the field and jumped beautifully showing how us as riders hinder our horses a lot of the time.


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## Alec Swan (9 April 2016)

MagicMelon said:



			Well amazingly they were today - except for the 4 horses dead on Thursday and yesterday.  Sorry but I stand by my opinion that the Grand National is a horrific event. In the UK, thats now 1378 deaths in 3316 days... sorry not good enough IMO.
		
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If your figures are correct,  and if we assume that the average field is 12 horses,  then that's approaching 40.000 individual horse/race days annually.  I wonder,  if we take 40000 horses in this country which are kept for pleasure riding alone,  I also wonder during the course of a year how many sustain fatal field or road accidents and how many die in their stables.  An awful lot more than 1400 would be the answer.

To the credit of all those jockeys who pulled up in the National,  every one of them did it to save a horse which was tired and had no realistic chance of success.  I only wish that amongst the high numbers of idiot pleasure riders that I see,  that there was such a commitment to the welfare of their own horses.  By and large,  the care levels shown to horses in racing and within the UK,  are exemplary both on and off the track.

Alec.


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## MagicMelon (9 April 2016)

EKW said:



			I am interested - does anyone keep a tally of the number of horses that die on the cross country courses each year? Or out hunting?
		
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BE and FEI will certainly keep figures as to death on XC courses, I assume BRC and PC would keep logs of this as well (but I assume its not great advertising for PC for example to openly admit how many there's been).  There were very few deaths when I last looked at the BE figures. The risk seems to be far far higher for racing.  If 4 horses died at one FEI event for example then there would be huge enquiries into it wouldn't there?  Hunting, I bet there's loads. I don't support hunting and even if you removed the fox factor I still wouldn't risk my horse hunting. I do XC, but I believe those fences have been made as safe as possible so risk is minimised. 



Nicnac said:



			Eventing far worse as people are killed... When was the last time a jockey was killed whilst racing?  I abhor horse deaths but still put humans above horses.
		
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Yes, eventing probably has killed more people however as terrible as any death is, that's the riders choice.  All of us who event take that risk, we know what can potentially happen. Horses have no idea.

I'd also argue about the "high welfare standards" of racehorses. Sure, they're well looked after outer wise but mentally?  I'd say the life of a racehorse is pretty gruesome if I'm honest, I believe most are stabled 24/7 - pretty dull life especially when they start their careers off so young when they should be learning basic socialising skills in a herd.

Anyway, its really quite pointless argueing about this again simply because nothing will change. The racing industry is worth too much money for anything to damage it.


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## Elf On A Shelf (9 April 2016)

MagicMelon said:



			I'd also argue about the "high welfare standards" of racehorses. Sure, they're well looked after outer wise but mentally?  I'd say the life of a racehorse is pretty gruesome if I'm honest, I believe most are stabled 24/7 - pretty dull life especially when they start their careers off so young when they should be learning basic socialising skills in a herd.

A
		
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Yup ... Locked up in solitary confinement, totally stressed out of their brains not learning how to be horses ...








Different trainer. Another who keeps them locked away ... I mean those outdoor boxes really do screw with horses heads ...

http://www.brianellisonracing.co.uk/


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## Madam Min (9 April 2016)

I try not to get drawn into these threads but cant sit on my hands! Yes, its sad when horses die racing but tragedies occur in all equestrian disciplines. Horses can have freak accidents in the field and at home. No one in racing sends their horses out to die!!! These antis seem to revel in deaths on a race track! Racing is an easy target as its in the public eye.What they should concentrate on is the overbreeding in the UK usually from half baked mares. Idiots who think its cute to have a foal but fail to think of long term costs. So many horses are then abandoned and dumped! Thats cruelty!!!!


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## splashgirl45 (9 April 2016)

well said EKW.   I think rather than focus on racing everyone should be focusing of horses and ponies who have YEARS of neglect and die horribly.    look at the number of poor animals who have been found by the welfare organisations this year, many of the poor things were too far gone to save and had suffered for a long time. racehorses are looked after well and their end is almost immediate.  I am very soft and since the death of dark ivy many years ago I don't watch the national live but once I know what has happened I watch the replay.   I hate the fact that some lose their lives but feel there are other more important horse issues, including recent endurance abuses and the horses being made to travel for hours and then killed..


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## AdorableAlice (9 April 2016)

EKW - is the horse on Brian Ellison's page called 'Scary' ?  I saw him as a foal at Kirklington Stud a few years ago if it is.


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## Alec Swan (9 April 2016)

MagicMelon said:



			&#8230;&#8230;..

Anyway, its really quite pointless argueing about this again &#8230;&#8230;.. .
		
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So why did you start a derail process on a thread which was celebrating a wonderful day's racing and was rejoicing in the safe return of every horse?

-----------------------

We watched the programme through to the end and what a delight it was to see two of the lads who work for Mouse Maurice with RtW,  and both sharing in the pleasure,  the responsibility the work and the glory too.  Emma asked them when they were going home to Ireland,  and they said that they were supposed to be going tomorrow,  but that they'd probably stay here and 'party' for a while! 

Then there was the winning jockey's younger brother,  in floods of tears at his big bro's success.  The sense of passion isn't limited by age,  it seems.

An excellent day allround.

Alec.


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## Ditchjumper2 (9 April 2016)

At my local point to point last Sat at least three horses died. One had a heart attack and the other two broke down between fences, one in front of us. The % rate far higher than the National meeting  but obviously as not high profile nothing said. There will always be risk, all we can do is to minimise it where possible and provide efficient services when the worst does happen.

Certainly last week the vet and hunt could not have been speedier.

If there was no racing there would be no racehorses. You can never, ever remove risk from any part of life, it is part and parcel of it.  It does not make tragedies any less sad, but you have to have realism. There is life and there is death.


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## asterope (9 April 2016)

AdorableAlice said:



			EKW - is the horse on Brian Ellison's page called 'Scary' ?  I saw him as a foal at Kirklington Stud a few years ago if it is.
		
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It's Top Notch Tonto - his markings are gorgeous!


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## Elf On A Shelf (9 April 2016)

Rule The World has been retired. What a way to end your career - your first and last chase win being in the National! A very sensible and considerate decision from his owners. The horse owes no one anything. 

Enjoy your retirement Rule The World!


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## AdorableAlice (9 April 2016)

EKW said:



			Rule The World has been retired. What a way to end your career - your first and last chase win being in the National! A very sensible and considerate decision from his owners. The horse owes no one anything. 

Enjoy your retirement Rule The World!
		
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He could join the HHo team chase group - Denman, B King, Somersby and Rule the World.  Unbeatable and what a sight that imaginary team that would be.


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## Hexx (9 April 2016)

I have heard that Mouse is very careful when it comes to his retired horses and he makes sure they go to good homes.  The last thing we would want is another Kauto Star incident.

With regard to fatalities - last year, we lost London to a fractured leg in the field and then the following day my Gus was pts due to toxic laminitis.  The month before, we lost Larry to an infected joint that was untreatable.  That's three horses off a yard of 30 - 10% by my reckoning.


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## Elf On A Shelf (9 April 2016)

Hexx said:



			I have heard that Mouse is very careful when it comes to his retired horses and he makes sure they go to good homes.  The last thing we would want is another Kauto Star incident.
		
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Kauto went to a very highly respected event rider to do some dressage. Sadly he had a field accident. The way the whole thing was handled was what was wrong but not his second career.


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## popsdosh (10 April 2016)

EKW said:



			Kauto went to a very highly respected event rider to do some dressage. Sadly he had a field accident. The way the whole thing was handled was what was wrong but not his second career.
		
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In my opinion three words should have been ommitted in that statement. Plainly it was the wrong second career in that instance.

More thought should be put into whats right for the horse rather than the people involved.


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## teapot (10 April 2016)

MagicMelon said:



			I'd also argue about the "high welfare standards" of racehorses. Sure, they're well looked after outer wise but mentally?  I'd say the life of a racehorse is pretty gruesome if I'm honest, I believe most are stabled 24/7 - pretty dull life especially when they start their careers off so young when they should be learning basic socialising skills in a herd.
		
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I'd rather be a racehorse than a pony in your lower than average run of the mill riding school...

EKW - awful photo, I mean reallly, two on the left look a bit lifeless


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## Equi (10 April 2016)

If racing died, the thorouhbred dies. It was bred to race. Without it, there will be no real need. They are not the ideal competition/sport horse, they are good at putting good blood onto other horses for that purpose, and yes some go on to have nice careers after, but by and by they are only useful for racing. 

Same with hounds - hunting dies they die. No use as anything other than a hound.


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## Sandstone1 (10 April 2016)

Yes, but hunting to kill with hounds IS banned and yet hunting is more popular than ever?
The racing industry has a lot of waste, horses that are not fast enough or sound enough what happens to them?
Times change and I honestly think that racing will have to change or it will go.


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## Elf On A Shelf (10 April 2016)

selinas spirit said:



			The racing industry has a lot of waste, horses that are not fast enough or sound enough what happens to them?
		
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I take them home...  I currently have 2  from the yard I work at, a 3Rd from.another yard out on loan and the first one I took home sadly got pts 8 years later from a freak field injury. 

And the horse that is currently banging it's door wanting it's feed doesn't shut up in the next 3 seconds I may have to do the unmentionable!


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## Equi (10 April 2016)

selinas spirit said:



			Yes, but hunting to kill with hounds IS banned and yet hunting is more popular than ever?
The racing industry has a lot of waste, horses that are not fast enough or sound enough what happens to them?
Times change and I honestly think that racing will have to change or it will go.
		
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It's not illegal to scent tho it's only illegal to set out with the intention of getting an animal 

And racing HAS changed. A lot.


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## Sandstone1 (10 April 2016)

equi said:



			It's not illegal to scent tho it's only illegal to set out with the intention of getting an animal 

And racing HAS changed. A lot.
		
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Not enough to stop a lot of horses dying though sadly.


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## popsdosh (10 April 2016)

selinas spirit said:



			Not enough to stop a lot of horses dying though sadly.
		
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More horses die of neglect in this country every day than those that die on a racecourse just its not on the telly so you can shut your eyes to it! At least the BHB publish the figures and dont shy away from it. Its not the huge numbers you would like people to think they are.

Dont you just love the Antis now that all the runners came back safe the big headline they are spouting is 4 dead at Grand national and the meeting bit is chucked in as an after thought if its questioned.


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## Elf On A Shelf (10 April 2016)

Yup a lot of.people are now focusing on the 2 that died - on the flat - in the Foxhunters over the big fences. Not mentioning that it wasn't the National itself. 

They seem that peeved that no horses died in the National that they missed the one that died in the hurdle at the start of the day. Again broke down on the flat between fences. 

So do we then question the soundness of racehorses and what effect in-breeding has on them? Does it affect soundness? Is it because the horses are started too young or.not young enough (and before the anti racers start a lot of jumpers don't start work.til they are 4 as they are too big and weak. They are called store horses.)

At the end of the day you will.never please everyone no matter what walk of life you come from.


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## Sandstone1 (10 April 2016)

popsdosh said:



			More horses die of neglect in this country every day than those that die on a racecourse just its not on the telly so you can shut your eyes to it! At least the BHB publish the figures and dont shy away from it. Its not the huge numbers you would like people to think they are.

Dont you just love the Antis now that all the runners came back safe the big headline they are spouting is 4 dead at Grand national and the meeting bit is chucked in as an after thought if its questioned.
		
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Please don't presume to put words in my mouth!
I don't like people to think it's huge numbers, I'm sorry when it's one horse, unfortunately it's a lot more than that.
I've said I watch and have enjoyed racing but just wonder how long it will go on with the number of horses that are killed, which, like it or not is a considerable number.
Times change and I just don't think it will continue in years to come as it is now.


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## AdorableAlice (10 April 2016)

selinas spirit said:



			Not enough to stop a lot of horses dying though sadly.
		
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Spend a day around the bin end sales, have a drive across the moors, along the motorways, onto a few commons.  You will see plenty of equines who would love to be a racehorse.


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## Madam Min (10 April 2016)

AdorableAlice said:



			Spend a day around the bin end sales, have a drive across the moors, along the motorways, onto a few commons.  You will see plenty of equines who would love to be a racehorse.
		
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Agreed!!!!!


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## Alec Swan (10 April 2016)

selinas spirit said:



			Not enough to stop a lot of horses dying though sadly.
		
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Horses die;  they die in paddocks,  they die on roads,  hunting,  eventing and in their own stables.  We would all mourn the untimely death of any horse,  but at least,  as others have said,  they're spared the hideous and drawn out end of so many which are,  so we're told,  in loving homes.

For those who can't cope with the facts of life,  perhaps they should look the other way or dissociate themselves from any equine interest.



EKW said:



			Yup a lot of.people are now focusing on the 2 that died - on the flat - in the Foxhunters over the big fences. Not mentioning that it wasn't the National itself. 

They seem that peeved that no horses died in the National that they missed the one that died in the hurdle at the start of the day. Again broke down on the flat between fences. 

So do we then question the soundness of racehorses and what effect in-breeding has on them? Does it affect soundness? Is it because the horses are started too young or.not young enough (and before the anti racers start a lot of jumpers don't start work.til they are 4 as they are too big and weak. They are called store horses.)

At the end of the day you will.never please everyone no matter what walk of life you come from.
		
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A first class post.  There are without doubt,  a group who focus upon the losses,  with each and every loss being used as ammunition and as an aid to point scoring,  and curiously (or understandably) from those who generally haven't a clue what they're on about.

Alec.


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## Equi (10 April 2016)

Nothing will ever be good enough to some until the human race is gone. Considering that's unlikely to happen anytime soon, I think we best get used to racing. It's been around since the horse was first created.


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## TeamChaser (10 April 2016)

Great race - did you see Hadrians Approach fly the chair, ears pricked, on his own leading the field?! Bloody shame he made a mistake at the first as certainly looked to be eating up those fences after that and loving it! 

I have to unfriend people on fb every year at this time! The classic this year was the horse owner wailing at the cruelty of the GN having let her own pony get grossly fat and end up with laminitis. I do wish people would educate themselves before passing judgement. EKW so glad you posted that stat around fatalities - beat me to it!

The care of racehorses has come so far and it really pi$$es me off when people make assumptions that they're locked in stables 24/7 out of their heads with boredom. In the main, these are valuable animals and someone is paying a lot in training fees in the hope their horse will be successful on the racetrack. It therefore makes sense that trainers and stable staff give those horses the best care possible (including ensuring mental well being) to obtain optimum performance. Very old fashioned view and whilst it may still happen in very few yards, you'll find the same in some dressage yards or show jumping yards .... which never seem to be singled out for criticism

The BHA works closely with great charities such as ROR to ensure welfare after retirement as well - another thing the antis seem to completely ignore! It's true that some sadly fall through the net (and this is more usually further down the line than straight out of training - a lot of trainers make genuine efforts to successfully and responsibly re home) but in far fewer numbers than the poor horses/ponies at the very bottom of the value chain


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## Clodagh (10 April 2016)

AdorableAlice said:



			Spend a day around the bin end sales, have a drive across the moors, along the motorways, onto a few commons.  You will see plenty of equines who would love to be a racehorse.
		
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Brilliant, I am arguing on FB at the moment, I may have to quote you.


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## claracanter (10 April 2016)

Well said AA

Teamchaser: You are right,  some dressage and showjumping yards have hideous practises but they are not under public scrutiny like the GN runners. Neither are the RSPCA consumed by calls to visit racing trainers yards, but instead they go to rescue ponies owned by members of the public.That is where the abuse happens. I can think of two high profile cases recently, one did involve a racehorse but it was an EX racehorse abused by its current owner and the other was a pony foal.


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## alliwantforchristmas (10 April 2016)

tbh I don't get the whole argument of 'there's much worse going on'.  I don't see why everything else in the horseworld should be perfect before anyone criticises racing.  we know there are problems with lots of things, racing included.

I liked the pictures that someone put up, but I wonder how common the turnout, and the in-and-out stalls are in racing.  Are the horses turned out every day?  and for how long?  I don't think the in and out stalls are particularly common-place, it would be great if they were.

this came up on my facebook feed, in thread where someone said the GN should be banned, and I thought it raised some interesting points, particularly about The Last Samuri and his jockey.

"The point for me is that it is about more than the deaths. No horses died in the actual Grand National this year, which is great - in fact that is the 4th year with no actual fatalities in the race. Maybe some of the jump modifications (that all the hard-core racers complained about) have helped. However, four horses did die at the meeting overall, and seven at Cheltenham a few weeks ago. Last week two horses collapsed and died at a meeting at Doncaster. So that's bad, but a lot of people will come up with the repetitive argument, horses die in all sports, in fields etc all the time and so on. But, the second horse, The Last Samuri, was excused from entering the public unsaddling enclosure after the race as he was suffering from post-race ataxia, and presumably having a horse wobbling about on point of collapse is going to do nothing for the pro-race argument - not to mention that he needed emergency veterinary care. His jockey was pulled before the stewards for using his whip too high - his fifth offence in six months. So this horse, who had already given his all, was unlawfully whipped on the run in, and was in such a state as a result he couldn't even make it to the unsaddling enclosure. Another horse also suffered post-race ataxia, and Many Clouds suffered breathing difficulties on the track and will need an operation before he runs again. So while it may look like no horse was injured, horses were in a bad way after the race. I have to say that the sight of horses, who had already given more than virtually any other horse in the country would be capable of, being whipped on the run in was truly sickening and to my mind totally indefensible. The very least that racing could do is limit whip use for safety reasons only. But of course when the BHA tried to tighten up whip regs after their 2011 investigation into the use of the whip on horses, the jockeys threatened to strike! And then we could talk about all the welfare implications of the way they are managed, the stress of travelling, what happens to the unwanted ones etc ... but that would be a book."


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## TeamChaser (10 April 2016)

But no one is saying that racing shouldn't be criticised at all nor continually strive for improvement ... which it makes a huge effort to do, particularly where equine welfare is concerned

Very unfair to say The Last Samurai was not presented at the winners enclosure to avoid bad publicity. This will have been done purely on welfare grounds which is paramount. 

There are strict whip rules ensuring that a horse is not hit more than a maximum number of times in a race .... but that's a whole other debate which will rumble on

No racing fan wants to see a horse pushed beyond it's endurance and many jockeys sensibly pulled up when their mounts flagged. Conditions were very soft on Sat though and the national is run over 4 miles plus - it's a test of endurance. The care the horses get post race is second to none and Many Clouds reacted similarly last year I believe, some do. He also recovered very quickly

I was at a team chase today and the ground was very wet and horses were finishing tired and having a good blow ... so might you if you went for a run in deep mud I suspect!

Again - "way they are kept" "stress of travelling" "unwanted ones" outdated view and not based on today's reality of racehorses in training


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## alliwantforchristmas (10 April 2016)

well, the post did say he needed veterinary attention.  and the condition of some of the horses was glossed over by the presenters just saying they were 'very tired'.  but I get your drift.  

tbh I think quite a few people are saying that we shouldn't be criticising racing or looking for ways to improve - not you, obviously, but others.  I think that's the point she was making though, that these horses had given their all, given how many pulled up etc, and it wasn't good to see them hit to the finish, or to know that one jockey over used the whip and the horse had been struggling afterwards.  I guess that's the bit to racing that the public aren't made aware of - the whip infringements and the condition of the horses who finish. Everyone focuses on the deaths and just says ban it, but it is not so black and white as that.


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## alliwantforchristmas (10 April 2016)

I don't think it's that outdated, it's admitted by the racing industry itself.

quote - Not every horse coming out of training will have ulcers but it is commonly accepted that over 90% of horses leaving the training environment will have ulcers to some degree, 

quote - The racehorse, in general terms, does not tend to be fed the much larger volumes of forages and fibres that its non-racing counterparts do, the ingestion of which produces large volumes of saliva which is a natural acid buffer.

It is also known that stress from travel, competition, environment, etc. can contribute to ulcer formation as can illness, and certain drug therapies.

http://www.ror.org.uk/faq/how-common-are-gastric-ulcers-in-former-racehorses/

and it would be impossible for all racehorses who are retiring to find good homes.  there just arent enough good homes out there, although obviously some do get lucky.  probably more jump horses than flat ones.


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## TeamChaser (10 April 2016)

You're right and it's always an emotive subject at this time of year given the profile of the race

I so think horses enjoy racing and jumping (mine loves team chasing) but I do think racing has an on going struggle with use of whips - which some of the general public find unsavoury and I get that - balanced against athletes wanting to win and a jockeys job being to attain the best finishing position possible

Aintree, and racing generally, have made huge strides in making racing as safe as possible but it cannot ever be risk free


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## TeamChaser (10 April 2016)

alliwantforchristmas said:



			I don't think it's that outdated ... it's admitted by the racing industry itself.

quote - Not every horse coming out of training will have ulcers but it is commonly accepted that over 90% of horses leaving the training environment will have ulcers to some degree, 

quote - The racehorse, in general terms, does not tend to be fed the much larger volumes of forages and fibres that its non-racing counterparts do, the ingestion of which produces large volumes of saliva which is a natural acid buffer.

It is also known that stress from travel, competition, environment, etc. can contribute to ulcer formation as can illness, and certain drug therapies.

http://www.ror.org.uk/faq/how-common-are-gastric-ulcers-in-former-racehorses/

Click to expand...

All of which can be attributed to any competition animal - not just the racehorse so why is it any worse than dressage/show jumper/hunter/polo pony? Horses kept at grass may not be prone to ulcers and yet vets are constantly warning of laminitis epidemics - which is worse?

Horse on my yard has had worse ulcers you're likely to see .. has never been anywhere near a competition or racecourse!

It's an outdated view to say they're never turned out. Most trainers recognise value of horses at liberty but at the same time, they're athletes, and if you were an Olympians, you wouldn't include ad lib McDonald's in your training regime! !


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## alliwantforchristmas (10 April 2016)

youre right, life can't be risk free.  and also I agree that there are some horses that are well-suited to racing.  i wouldn't particularly want to see it banned, for one thing it is a completely unrealistic expectation.  It annoys me that everyone gets excited about racing and welfare for about three weeks of the year and then forgets all about it, when horses are being killed and jockeys are over-using the whip, and there are lots of other welfare concerns all year round.  I think there's loads of areas that racing could try to improve in, in terms of safety, welfare, whip use etc.  I just think people should not see it as black and white - a horse died, therefore the race should be banned vs racehorses are the best kept horses there are.  neither is true imo.


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## alliwantforchristmas (10 April 2016)

TeamChaser said:



			All of which can be attributed to any competition animal - not just the racehorse so why is it any worse than dressage/show jumper/hunter/polo pony? Horses kept at grass may not be prone to ulcers and yet vets are constantly warning of laminitis epidemics - which is worse?

Horse on my yard has had worse ulcers you're likely to see .. has never been anywhere near a competition or racecourse!

It's an outdated view to say they're never turned out. Most trainers recognise value of horses at liberty but at the same time, they're athletes, and if you were an Olympians, you wouldn't include ad lib McDonald's in your training regime! !
		
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Well, it is higher in racehorses - even by RoR 's own figures.  but I agree that across the board we should be looking at the welfare of horses in all walks of life, and if we really can't keep them as 'athletes' or 'competition horses' without compromising their welfare, then maybe that's an area that's open to debate. and yes, laminitis is just as bad. however, it then goes back to me saying that it shouldn't be the case that the rest of the equestrian world is perfect before we address the problems with racehorses.  As the article says, lots of things can cause ulcers including illness and medication.  also stress comes in many forms.  

hence why I asked above how common is turnout and in-and-out stabling.  I did look at a few trainers websites, and while they talk about gallops and horsewalkers I couldn't see any pictures of in and out stalls or horses in paddocks, so it would be good to know how common that is.


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## minesadouble (11 April 2016)

We have two ex-racehorses at home, each from opposite ends of the country, both had regular turnout as racehorses. Both are very happy and confident around people, one in particular ADORES human company, neither show any signs of having received harsh treatment in the past.

We also supply haylage to a Northern trainer whose horses also receive regular turnout, his paddocks are always full of horses in training.

What has amazed me most is the interest that has been taken in them by their racing connections. The trainer of one is in regular contact, always asking how he is and what he's up to etc., and emailed his breeder, copying us in, to say this is where Henry is now, his breeder also keeps in touch and loves to hear of his progress.

The other horse's trainer is now sadly deceased but when we tried to trace him we received loads of help from other trainers, being put in touch with his old head lad and even the girl who helped break him in.

I think the days of racehorses being cooped up 24/7 and being treated as machines are long gone, in my experience at least.


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## case895 (11 April 2016)

Just been looking through the Daily Mail's photo page from Ladies' Day. One of the new dresscode rules must be "No real eyebrows".


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## fburton (11 April 2016)

case895 said:



			One of the new dresscode rules must be "No real eyebrows".
		
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What?? <raises virtual eyebrow>


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## Mariposa (12 April 2016)

alliwantforchristmas said:



			hence why I asked above how common is turnout and in-and-out stabling.  I did look at a few trainers websites, and while they talk about gallops and horsewalkers I couldn't see any pictures of in and out stalls or horses in paddocks, so it would be good to know how common that is.
		
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I think its more and more common, even in flat racing. A good example is Brian Ellison - he trains some great horses, including Top Notch Tonto, and he has these stables ( as well as a traditional yard)


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## alliwantforchristmas (12 April 2016)

If it is 'more and more common' can we have more than one example?  Given that there are around 600 licensed trainers in the uk?  Brian Ellison's yard was the photo someone else posted.  I think it *should* be very common.  i think the absolute least we should offer these horses is the choice to stand either inside or outside and to see other horses!  how many hours a day to the horses get to live like this as opposed to shut in a stable, does anyone know?


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## Elf On A Shelf (12 April 2016)

A day in the life of one of 'my' horses at the moment who is in for summer jumping.

7am 2.5kg of haylage 
7.30am 1scoop racehorse cubes and a good handful of Alfa A. All supplements added to breakfast feed, in this lads case cortaflex. 
11am ridden out twice up the gallops which is a good mile and a half walk out and back.
12.15pm out in an individual paddock til 2pm.
When in he will get his lunch which is the same as breakfast. This is fed at 1pm but being in the field.means he gets it a bit late. There is also another 2.5kg of hay waiting for him that was put in his box at 12.30pm.
2.30pm groomed, rugged,  legs checked and injuries tended to.
4pm fed again, same as earlier.
8.30pm late feed. Scoop of cubes and more haylage.

Another day he may be ridden out at 9.30am and spend 11-1 in the field. Another day he might be ridden at 12pm so he would be I'm the field 8-10am.

We have individual paddocks for horses in training so they are next to each other but not.in with each other to minimise the risk of injury. 

When the winter horses are on their holidays they will spend 6-12 weeks (depending on the horse) out in a 10-20 acre field with up to 12 other horses. A couple of bales of haylage are always available and they are out 24/7 being checked on a few times a day. Unturned unless it the weather turns.

The summer horses on their holidays over winter go out at 9am and back in at 3pm. Rugged up.

We try to get the majority of the horses out every day, weather pending though some go out every other day due to not having enough paddocks. The paddocks are big enough to have a roll a buck and a kick but not enough to get some.proper hooley speed up.

The yard up the road turns out for 2-3 hours every day but they have fewer horses.

There have been plenty of pictures put up of racehorses in the fields, and national horses out in the fields over the last few days so there really are loads and loads of yards that turn out.

It is harder when you have a yard of 50 colts and 50 fillies for obvious reasons but jumping rarely has colts. They become too protective of their private parts to jump quick enough and low enough after a while.


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## Alec Swan (12 April 2016)

EKW,  such a heartening and excellent post.  I do so wish that those who will judge (but only when the accidents occur),  would find a way to understand the level of care and commitment which goes in to the daily management of a horse in training.  'Care and commitment' will read from the Trainer down to the Lads and Lasses with everyone focussing on what's right for the horse.

I continue with the belief that racehorses,  mostly,  couldn't be in better hands.  

Alec.


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## Spilletta (12 April 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			EKW,  such a heartening and excellent post.  I do so wish that those who will judge (but only when the accidents occur),  would find a way to understand the level of care and commitment which goes in to the daily management of a horse in training.  'Care and commitment' will read from the Trainer down to the Lads and Lasses with everyone focussing on what's right for the horse.

I continue with the belief that racehorses,  mostly,  couldn't be in better hands.  

Alec.
		
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Agree.

It seems to me that most people involved in racing are always working towards improving things, and are transparent about it. If I could ever afford to buy/train quality horses to send to some form of competition yard, I'd pick racing over anything else.

I occasionally watch dressage, but I usually start to feel uncomfortable with the tail swishing and general demeanour of some horses. I wonder if some tail-swishers would love to just break free for a little while and have a good old gallop. Some horses, if they had a choice, might pick a career in racing for themselves. (I'm positive mine would, anyway. She'd load herself in the lorry if she could for trips to the gallops!)


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## marotelle (12 April 2016)

I would rather be a racehorse in England than any type of riding school horse on most yards  on the continant. Here there is no turn out,horses are in 23/24 ;some privately owned horses can get some field time, others , turn out is iether some loose play in the indoor school(if it is
free at the time) or half an hour on the horse Walker, which most of the time requires extra pay, so some people simply ignore it.
  Race horses have been bred to race, they enjoy racing.
If we make it too easy for them there would be no more competition; which would mean the breed in itself would suffer.Compare the bone structure of the old fashioned tb hunter chaser
we had a few years back, with the leaner flat type chaser we see now a days, you will notice
a huge differance!
  The fact we have altered the fences, making them smaller and removing the hazards behind them, have made them alot more Dangerous;horses no longer respect them, they take them at an absurd speed and this accounts for the increase in injuries,speed not the size of the jumps.


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## Mariposa (12 April 2016)

alliwantforchristmas said:



			If it is 'more and more common' can we have more than one example?  Given that there are around 600 licensed trainers in the uk?  Brian Ellison's yard was the photo someone else posted.  I think it *should* be very common.  i think the absolute least we should offer these horses is the choice to stand either inside or outside and to see other horses!  how many hours a day to the horses get to live like this as opposed to shut in a stable, does anyone know?
		
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Sorry- - didn't realise it had already been posted - my bad!

I think I've misunderstood your argument - do you think horses should never be stables and always have the choice of being in or out? I think most NH trainers turn their horses out ( most that I know of anyway, and certainly when my grandfather was training his all went out most days) - just like 'normal' horses.


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## alliwantforchristmas (12 April 2016)

so for between 9 and 10 and a half months every year, 2 hours a day individual turnout, and not nec every day.  thanks for clarifying.

I agree that people shouldn't just complain for cheltenham and the grand national.  horses are experiencing welfare issues all year round, and getting killed and injured, and jockeys are over-using the whip and horses finishing exhausted and needing medical care, or even collapsing and dying after the races, or even in the races. this should be spoken about all year round.  And i think a lot of people do try to raise awareness of it, and a lot of people do worry about it all year round.  it's just going to be more obvious at this time of year when the number of fatalities is more in the public eye and people are going to be openly discussing it. 

I don't know why people think that just because someone disagrees with their point of view they don't know what they are talking about.  It may be that they know very well what they are talking about, but they have a different set of priorities, or a different opinion.  a racehorse may seem to be 'treated like a king' from one person's point of view, but from the horse's point of view it might be very different.  horses are social animals who are designed to cover many miles per day at a slow, steady pace, closely interacting with others in the herd, and eat high volumes of low quality roughage.  none of these behavioural needs are adequately met in the majority of yards.  the fact that over 90% of racehorses leave training with ulcers suggests that they are under considerable stress, be that physical, psychological or a combination.  the vast majority of yards are designed entirely for the convenience of the people, not the horses. 

I have never said that the people involved in day to day care don't care about the animals.  however, on that point I would just question the wisdom of running a horse with a twice fractured pelvis in what is arguably the toughest race in the uk - quote from the trainer: He's fractured his pelvis twice. Before that I always thought he was the best horse I ever had, how good would he be with a proper rear end on him?  and another quote:

Because of his injuries, his rear end isn't as strong as it should be muscle-wise and I think the better the ground the better he is.'

so, let's take a horse without the best rear end on him, due to him fracturing his pelvis twice, and stick him in the national - even though he has never even won over fences.  that doesn't look like prioritising the horse's welfare and safety to me.  

I do agree, the majority of dressage horses look pretty miserable to me as well.  



Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ely-Grand-National-triumph.html#ixzz45cPAqVi7
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Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-jockey-win-Grand-National.html#ixzz45cNlghGs
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook


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## alliwantforchristmas (12 April 2016)

Mariposa said:



			Sorry- - didn't realise it had already been posted - my bad!

I think I've misunderstood your argument - do you think horses should never be stables and always have the choice of being in or out? I think most NH trainers turn their horses out ( most that I know of anyway, and certainly when my grandfather was training his all went out most days) - just like 'normal' horses.
		
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no, i think it's fine for horses to spend part of their life in stables, so long as they have turnout time as well.  I don't like to think of horses spending 22 hours a day in a stable with maybe 2 hours turnout.  But 22 is better than 24.  The in and out stables you said were more and more common, but so far it seems like only one trainer uses them, and again i was wondering if the horses were in those for a significant portion of the day or just a couple of hours, and that was deemed their 'turnout'.  and how common they are.


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## TeamChaser (12 April 2016)

But these behaviour needs you specify are not met for the vast majority of domesticated horses - be they racehorses, competition horses, happy hacks or field ornaments! 

You're singling out racing for criticism when the same could be applied to a huge number of leisure horses. I would imagine most horses at livery have had a restriction on turn out this winter it's been so wet

You're very lucky if your horses have the freedom to roam for miles. Most horse owners would struggle to get anywhere near "natural" conditions. 

And by the way, filthy here yesterday - mine broke my bloody electric fence down to get in!! Worse things than being in a stable with nice haylage to eat apparently!


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## alliwantforchristmas (12 April 2016)

marotelle said:



			I would rather be a racehorse in England than any type of riding school horse on most yards  on the continant. Here there is no turn out,horses are in 23/24 ;some privately owned horses can get some field time, others , turn out is iether some loose play in the indoor school(if it is
free at the time) or half an hour on the horse Walker, which most of the time requires extra pay, so some people simply ignore it.
  Race horses have been bred to race, they enjoy racing.
If we make it too easy for them there would be no more competition; which would mean the breed in itself would suffer.Compare the bone structure of the old fashioned tb hunter chaser
we had a few years back, with the leaner flat type chaser we see now a days, you will notice
a huge differance!
  The fact we have altered the fences, making them smaller and removing the hazards behind them, have made them alot more Dangerous;horses no longer respect them, they take them at an absurd speed and this accounts for the increase in injuries,speed not the size of the jumps.
		
Click to expand...

breeding also accounts for the number who break down.  surely the speed should be down to the jockeys.  

i cant be doing with the 'something is always worse' argument.  if we extrapolated that argument to its logical conclusion it would mean that no one was ever allowed to criticise anything ever, as no matter what you discuss someone is always going to say something else is worse.  we dont need to fix the problems for horses in riding schools in the continent before we can discuss racing.


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## alliwantforchristmas (12 April 2016)

TeamChaser said:



			But these behaviour needs you specify are not met for the vast majority of domesticated horses - be they racehorses, competition horses, happy hacks or field ornaments! 

You're singling out racing for criticism when the same could be applied to a huge number of leisure horses. I would imagine most horses at livery have had a restriction on turn out this winter it's been so wet

You're very lucky if your horses have the freedom to roam for miles. Most horse owners would struggle to get anywhere near "natural" conditions. 

And by the way, filthy here yesterday - mine broke my bloody electric fence down to get in!! Worse things than being in a stable with nice haylage to eat apparently!
		
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see my other point - in order to be able to discuss racing, i dont need to fix the rest of the entire equestrian world first.  if we all took that stance no one could ever criticise anything because someone would always say 'but what about'.  likewise if we all turned a blind eye to things we disagreed with we'd probably still have slavery, bear-baiting and burning witches.  I do agree that horses struggle in many walks of life.  but this thread is about racing.  we could discuss those other problems if you want, but it does not take away from the idea that there are problems in racing.  

it's also not an either/or argument.  nothing wrong with turning your horse out when the weather is good and letting him come in when the weather is poor.  or even better give him a field shelter to make his own choice, with his haylage in it.  actually my horses do roam over a reasonable acerage all year round and make choices.  i would not have horses if i could not meet their basic needs. maybe another problem to discuss at some point is livery yards who take money off owners but provide inadequate facilities for the horses.


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## Alec Swan (12 April 2016)

alliwantforchristmas,

I'm not sure about others,  but I'm starting to wonder if you aren't something of a 'campaigner'! 

I also wonder if you have a caps button on your keyboard.  I'm not that bothered,  you understand,  it's just out of idle curiosity that I ask. 

Alec.


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## teapot (12 April 2016)

I think as per every racing thread there are two issues. One, the sport itself, deaths in races/after races; and two, the lifestyle that racehorses have. Moreover threads move from the first to the second as though they're one and the same, they're not. EKW's posts prove that it's not all hideous. Heck, it sounds like her charges have had far more turnout than the horse I'm riding had over the winter!



alliwantforchristmas said:



			no, i think it's fine for horses to spend part of their life in stables, so long as they have turnout time as well.  I don't like to think of horses spending 22 hours a day in a stable with maybe 2 hours turnout.
		
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That's fine but don't single out racing as the bad guy when the above is happening in generic livery yards, competition yards and riding schools across the country.


I believe the Giffords turnout a fair bit too.


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## Alec Swan (12 April 2016)

alliwantforchristmas said:



			no, i think it's fine for horses to spend part of their life in stables, so long as they have turnout time as well.  &#8230;&#8230;.. .
		
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Best you go and have a word with the Met Police mounted division,  and also ALL the mounted and London based regiments.  The closest that any of their horses get to grass,  is hay!

Alec.


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## Elf On A Shelf (12 April 2016)

alliwantforchristmas said:



			breeding also accounts for the number who break down. .
		
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This is unproven. BUT I do happen to believe that we are breeding for speed and an earlier racecourse appearance these days. Proper old fashioned leg at each corner chasers wouldn't be seen on the track until they were 5 or 6 but would have had been broken at 3 or 4 and hunted/done other things until they were physically ready to race. 

Having a horse 3x in, at least, with Northern Dancer is also not something I would be best pleased about.

I also think that the ages at which they are trained has something to do with it. As I have said before I do not agree with breaking yearlings. I wouldn't like to see 2yo races start before June. But that is not my call. Yes I think that early work.leads to early problems but equally I find that the later you start you encounter other problems.


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## alliwantforchristmas (12 April 2016)

no, I'm not a campaigner, i can promise you that.  it's just that if I feel strongly about something I will state my point.  and if I think my point is being stated as being clueless, i'll back up my point, because i may be many things, but I am not clueless.  like i said above, i am not against stabled horses etc.  i have my own horses, and I ride and my horses do spend time in stables/barns as well as turned out.  

I also do have a caps button, two infact.  one of them is a bit sticky, and I got fed up of back tracking to correct the typing when the caps didn't work, and now I have got used to ignoring the caps and accepting that sometimes they work and sometimes they don't.  so half the time I don't even bother to hit caps, and if I do and it doesn't work I don't bother to go back and change it.  hope that clarifies things for you.


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## alliwantforchristmas (12 April 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			Best you go and have a word with the Met Police mounted division,  and also ALL the mounted and London based regiments.  The closest that any of their horses get to grass,  is hay!

Alec.
		
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don't see your point.  thread is about racing.  See my previous comments, it is not necessary to address every problem in the entire equestrian world before racing can be discussed.  If that were the case then nothing could ever be discused or criticised, as someone could always say there is something else worse.


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## teapot (12 April 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			Best you go and have a word with the Met Police mounted division,  and also ALL the mounted and London based regiments.  The closest that any of their horses get to grass,  is hay!

Alec.
		
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Except their two month winter break and a few weeks off in the summer.


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## alliwantforchristmas (12 April 2016)

teapot said:



			I think as per every racing thread there are two issues. One, the sport itself, deaths in races/after races; and two, the lifestyle that racehorses have. Moreover threads move from the first to the second as though they're one and the same, they're not. EKW's posts prove that it's not all hideous. Heck, it sounds like her charges have had far more turnout than the horse I'm riding had over the winter!



That's fine but don't single out racing as the bad guy when the above is happening in generic livery yards, competition yards and riding schools across the country.


I believe the Giffords turnout a fair bit too.
		
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I have addressed this above.  It is not necessary to fix everything before we discuss racing.  If that were the case we could never discuss anything, as someone could always say 'what about'. Horses face multiple welfare issues in all walks of life.  it is just that this thread happens to be about racing.

there are many issues in racing, the management and lifestyle, what happens to horses on the course, the whip argument, what happens to horses when their racing days are over and so on.  the death issue is different to the rest of it.  that's why i said it shouldn't be horse died therefore ban racing vs race horses live like kings and there are no problems.  Neither approach is accurate or realistic.


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## Alec Swan (12 April 2016)

teapot said:



			Except their two month winter break and a few weeks off in the summer.
		
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Have you ever seen the Household Cavalry when they come to Norfolk for their summer break?  The best that they get is a gallop on Holkham beach! They certainly don't get 'turn-out'! 

Horses are kept in London,  and many for years,  and without being turned out.  They settle to the regime and they are ridden out every day,  and from what I remember of it,  to no ill effect.

Alec.


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## teapot (12 April 2016)

alliwantforchristmas said:



			I have addressed this above.  It is not necessary to fix everything before we discuss racing.  If that were the case we could never discuss anything, as someone could always say 'what about'. Horses face multiple welfare issues in all walks of life.  it is just that this thread happens to be about racing.

there are many issues in racing, the management and lifestyle, what happens to horses on the course, the whip argument, what happens to horses when their racing days are over and so on.  the death issue is different to the rest of it.  that's why i said it shouldn't be horse died therefore ban racing vs race horses live like kings and there are no problems.  Neither approach is accurate or realistic.
		
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I think you're missing my point - it's not about 'what about x, y, z' it's about the fact people seem to single out racing as the big bad nasty evil when it isn't the only one with welfare issues. Now if racing was the anomaly in the equestrian world then yes I'd agree welfare needs discussing alongside the sport itself, but it isnt. Banging on about welfare in raceyards, when the exact same happens at your average local livery yard or riding school weakens the argument somewhat. 

Besides, you could have a racehorse out 24/7 in a massive herd, and it could still die on a racecourse.


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## alliwantforchristmas (12 April 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			Have you ever seen the Household Cavalry when they come to Norfolk for their summer break?  The best that they get is a gallop on Holkham beach! They certainly don't get 'turn-out'! 

Horses are kept in London,  and many for years,  and without being turned out.  They settle to the regime and they are ridden out every day,  and from what I remember of it,  to no ill effect.

Alec.
		
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I don't see what this has to do with racehorses, except that if these horses could live this lifestyle with no ill effect vs 90% or more of racehorses leaving training with ulcers, then there must be a lot more problems in racing than just turnout time.


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## teapot (12 April 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			Have you ever seen the Household Cavalry when they come to Norfolk for their summer break?  The best that they get is a gallop on Holkham beach! They certainly don't get 'turn-out'! 

Horses are kept in London,  and many for years,  and without being turned out.  They settle to the regime and they are ridden out every day,  and from what I remember of it,  to no ill effect.

Alec.
		
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No Alec I've not been to their summer camp, but they definitely get two months of winter turnout at Melton. It's a well documented issue of having to turn mud monsters back into cav blacks in time for the first state occasion of the year (photos on the HQ London facebook page if you're interested). Some also regularly leave London for weeks of hunting.


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## alliwantforchristmas (12 April 2016)

teapot said:



			I think you're missing my point - it's not about 'what about x, y, z' it's about the fact people seem to single out racing as the big bad nasty evil when it isn't the only one with welfare issues. Now if racing was the anomaly in the equestrian world then yes I'd agree welfare needs discussing alongside the sport itself, but it isnt. Banging on about welfare in raceyards, when the exact same happens at your average local livery yard or riding school weakens the argument somewhat. 

Besides, you could have a racehorse out 24/7 in a massive herd, and it could still die on a racecourse.
		
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No, I think you are missing my point.  I have already said that there are many welfare issues with horses in all walks of life.  we could say this - I will criticise racing, but you say indiscriminate breeding is worse, so I shouldn't focus on racing.  then someone else could say that dressage horses suffer more - so now we can't discuss indiscriminate breeding, or racing.  Then someone else could say that show jumpers get the worst time, and someone else says that riding school ponies have it worse, so now we can't discuss racing, or indiscriminate breeding, or dressage horses, or showjumpers because none of that is as bad as being a riding school pony.  And then the owner of a riding school will come along and say her ponies are all treated just fine, and we should look at what goes on in the showing world.  And so it goes on.  There is good and bad in everything, but saying 'you can't talk about x because y is worse' or 'well it happens in z as well so just leave x alone' is utterly pointless. 

did you not get the point that the death issue is different to the lifestyle issue?

and just because it happens in livery yards doesn't make it ok - either in livery yards or racing yards.  So the welfare aspect need to be addressed in both, not just not picking on the welfare aspect of one because it occurs somewhere else as well.


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## teapot (12 April 2016)

alliwantforchristmas said:



			No, I think you are missing my point.  I have already said that there are many welfare issues with horses in all walks of life.  we could say this - I will criticise racing, but you say indiscriminate breeding is worse, so I shouldn't focus on racing.  then someone else could say that dressage horses suffer more - so now we can't discuss indiscriminate breeding, or racing.  Then someone else could say that show jumpers get the worst time, and someone else says that riding school ponies have it worse, so now we can't discuss racing, or indiscriminate breeding, or dressage horses, or showjumpers because none of that is as bad as being a riding school pony.  And then the owner of a riding school will come along and say her ponies are all treated just fine, and we should look at what goes on in the showing world.  And so it goes on.  There is good and bad in everything, but saying *'you can't talk about x because y is worse' or 'well it happens in z as well so just leave x alone*' is utterly pointless.
		
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No, you CAN talk about them, together, as compare and contrast. I take issue with people singling out the welfare of racehorses in yards, when the same or worse is happening under everyone's nose, and making racing the nasty evil section of the equine world. Racing's nasty and evil, and those poor horses with no turnout/no tlc compared to what? You cannot accuse something/a sector/a sport of having issues without having a base line to place it against, and the beauty of the equestrian world is the huge number of differing sports and activities that make up the sector as a whole. Moreover given how intertwined the equestrian world is, trying to isolate one specific sport weakens any form of argument. It has to be put in perspective because racing is not alone or a one off, it is part of a wider industry which cannot be seperated imho.

Doesn't make it right wherever it's happening, but I get annoyed when there are so many horses owned privately who would potentially have a better lifestyle in a raceyard, yet everyone singles out racing (as the collective industry) as the bad guy. There are bigger issues in the equestrian world and it would be so nice if racing was put in perspective occasionally :smile3:


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## alliwantforchristmas (12 April 2016)

teapot said:



			No, you CAN talk about them, together, as compare and contrast. I take issue with people singling out the welfare of racehorses in yards, when the same or worse is happening under everyone's nose, and making racing the nasty evil section of the equine world. Racing's nasty and evil compared, and those poor horses with no turnout/no tlc to what? You cannot accuse something/a sector/a sport of having issues without having a base line to place it against, and the beauty of the equestrian world is the huge number of differing sports and activities that make up the sector as a whole. Moreover given how intertwined the equestrian world is, trying to isolate one specific sport weakens any form of argument. It has to be put in perspective because racing is not alone or a one off, it is part of a wider industry which cannot be seperated imho.

Doesn't make it right wherever it's happening, but I get annoyed when there are so many horses owned privately who would potentially have a better lifestyle in a raceyard, yet everyone singles out racing (as the collective industry) as the bad guy.
		
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This is a thread about RACING.  If you want to start other threads on other welfare issues, then go ahead.  If you want to talk about other aspects of welfare in this thread, then go ahead.  but the demands on racehorses vs riding school ponies, vs field ornaments, vs someone's happy hacker, vs a competitive show jumper, or dressage horse or polo pony or endurance horse are all different.  and within each of those disciplines you will find horse who are happy and well treated, with enough of their needs sufficiently met that they do not develop ulcers or stereotypies or other behavioural problems, and others where the management is inadequate and/or the demands placed upon the horse too high and they will suffer as a result.  but it depends upon individual circumstance, not a blanket description of the discipline.  hence why posting pictures of free choice stabling is a good example in the racing world of how someone is trying to meet horses needs.  so his yard may be higher in welfare standards than some others. hence why  I asked how common they are and how are they actually used.  that's the comparison that matters.  what are poeple doing now to improve racing, and what more can be done.  and what can be done at home for the horses vs what can be done for them on the track in terms of safety and whip use and the deciding factors that put them in a race, and jump design.  and what else can be done about things like breeding, work load, when to start youngsters etc.  but none of it will be discussed in any meaningful way if the people who support racing just say 'its all fine so pee off and go and pick on something else'.  and it just makes people who are on the outside, or less supportive of racing, even more suspicious.  i never even thought much about racing until the victoria pendleton thing at cheltenham, and then seven horses died, and there were whip rules broken but jockeys still kept the race, but the attitude on here and elsewhere was of people saying 'they died, s*** happens, move along, nothing to see here'.  that gave me the impression that what people want out of racehorses is way more important than their welfare, and that anyone who questions the 'tradition' is just seen as a clueless pleb who should mind their own business.  which doesn't look good when anyone with even a bit of knowledge of horses can tell that a lot of horses suffer for people to enjoy their racing.


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## Elf On A Shelf (12 April 2016)

You'd be surprised at just how many "normal" horses have undiagnosed ulcers. 

Last summer we gastroscoped 40 horses. A random selection of those who looked like they were ulcery all the way along to those who you wouldn't expect to have ulcers in a million years. 

Of those 40, 17 had ulcers worthy of treating. 5 of them were actually very bad. Of these 5 4 were very poor doers, dull coated and had a lack of sparkle. 1 was a fat heffalump who we always struggled to get the weight off of, looked superb in its coat and could gallop with the best of them. 

Of the other 23, 12 had the beginnings of ulcers but not sufficient enough to warrant treatment anymore than a slight change of diet. Ie they got a bit more hay and extra Alpha throughout the day.

The rest showed no signs of ulcers what so ever. One of which was a very poor doer. He had every test imaginable done to him and there was no reason why he looked so naff he just did. Well he didn't look naff he just ran up very very light when racing. Still ate up etc. He just obviously gave you 150% every time he ran. Which I do find amusing as he is was one of the slowest, and I mean I could run faster than this horse slow! Horses I have ever ridden! He is now loving life as a happy hunter and the lifestyle is obviously suiting him as he is keeping his weight much better.


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## alliwantforchristmas (12 April 2016)

I wouldn't be surprised tbh.  Plenty of welfare issues across the board, as I have already said.  And there are plenty of statistics out there on ulcers.  

So out of 40 horses 29 with ulcers or the start of them, and one who had a lifestyle change. so just below 75% with ulcers - lower than the 90% + quoted for racehorses, so your yard must be doing a bit better than some others. point is, what is acceptable?  And I think that will be different for different people.  And of course what can be done to improve it?  because surely 90% or even 75% cant be acceptable in a professional sporting environment?


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## Elf On A Shelf (12 April 2016)

Ideally you would have 0% but in reality that is never going to happen. 

With the way racing is changing, and mostly for the better, I can see the percentages dropping as the years go by. But it can't be done overnight. Nothing can be done over night. 

I work in racing and I will hold my hands up and say that no I don't agree with breaking at a young age. No I don't agree with the whip rules. No I don't always agree with how things are done, how horses are looked after etc. BUT times are changing. 

The whip rules have changed dramatically over the last couple of years. The jumps have been made 'safer'. More and.more trainers are seeing the value in turnout and varied lifestyles. 

We are getting there and we are getting there quicker than many other disciplines. 

Racing is paving the way for many other things. The pro's out weigh the cons. Veterinary science for one. It is the biggest benefactor for the horse world. 

Take St Nichols Abbey. He broke a leg, badly. Normally that is a straight pts injury. But with the money and the science they tried to fix him to stand at stud. They remodelled pretty much half of his bone and what bits didn't fit the jigsaw puzzle they made with metal and plastic. (how the bone breaks under pressure is pretty amazing and until you understand how it does it you will never understand why it can't be fixed). They fixed St Nick. He could stand. His leg held. He could walk. He got lammi. He recovered. He colicked and got put down.

Now you may say that was a total waste of time and that they should never have tried to fix him but in reality by trying out all these new fangled ideas and methods and bits of technology they have a whole new understanding into what they can and can't do with bones now. Without dear old St Nick that bit of veterinary science wouldnt have come to light for a good few years, if ever.

And yes. That was all about money. But the long term benefits outweigh the short term goal.


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## alliwantforchristmas (12 April 2016)

Dear god ... poor b****y horse.  how can it be justified to put any horse through that.  no wonder he colicked.  Now, I'm sorry but that really is suffering beyond.  They only did it because they wanted him to stand at stud.   some knowledge doesn't justify the price for the horse, and if it is used again it will only be for another one they can try to make a fortune from.  No way can they justify putting a horse through that much pain.  I know what you are saying about vet advancements, and some are very good, but that really is out of order imo.

as for the whip rules - when the bha tried to tighten things up the jockeys went on strike!  It said in the facebook post and I looked it up.  How can that be right?

it's good that you can see the problems as well as the benefits, and from the inside.  I have much more respect for someone with that kind of view than someone who says 'you don't know what you are talking about, now go away and stop bothering us' or words to that effect.


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## Elf On A Shelf (12 April 2016)

Your right. St Nick was put through far too much. Time should have been called at the lammi stage. His long term life would have been very restricted. No doubt he would have had the best of everything but I doubt he would have done anything more than a controlled inhand walk. For this the horse suffered to an extent but he would have been so spaced drugs he wouldn't have noticed. The long term medical benefits - were they worth it? If it wasn't St Nick that was the guinnae pig then it would have been another - behind closed doors with everything hushed up if it didn't work. At least Coolmore were very open with every stage of the process to let people see how much they tried.


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## alliwantforchristmas (12 April 2016)

yes, too much.  there has to be a line somewhere, drugs and pain killers or no.  Esp if long term quality of life was questionable.  

I'm sure lots goes on we don't hear about.  

Like some others have said, death is definitely not the worst thing that can happen to a horse.  One of the things no one can argue with is the way horses are dealt with swiftly when things go wrong in the race.


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## teapot (12 April 2016)

alliwantforchristmas said:



			it's good that you can see the problems as well as the benefits, and from the inside.  I have much more respect for someone with that kind of view than someone who says 'you don't know what you are talking about, now go away and stop bothering us' or words to that effect.
		
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If you think that's what my post implied then you've read it incorrectly, far from it in fact. Open comparative discussion is what the equestrian world needs, but so so so many threads, articles in the press or online put racing in a negative light and imho isn't always fair. EKW's original post on this thread got ignored by someone else because it didn't fit with their anti racing agenda. 

From a personal perspective, I spectate at all levels of BE/FEI and I also watch a lot of polo. I've seen far worse falls, welfare issues etc at both of those, than I ever have with my own eyes racing. It would be utterly hypocritical of me to condone racing, but not the other two. Every sport has its issues, which is again why I think they should be compared to others, to learn from others and to improve like others. 

The horse I'm riding at the moment has gone through its his own welfare issues recently where I've had to stand my ground so much it caused a lot of stress, tears and a fair few ruffled feathers, for his own benefit and sanity. I can assure you I am not a '**** happens' kinda girl, but I can certainly put racing in some form of perspective, especially when welfare related issues happen right under your nose.


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## alliwantforchristmas (12 April 2016)

teapot said:



			If you think that's what my post implied then you've read it incorrectly, far from it in fact. Open comparative discussion is what the equestrian world needs, but so so so many threads, articles in the press or online put racing in a negative light and imho isn't always fair. 

From a personal perspective, I spectate at all levels of BE/FEI and I also watch a lot of polo. I've seen far worse falls, welfare issues etc at both of those, than I ever have with my own eyes racing. It would be utterly hypocritical of me to condone racing, but not the other two. Every sport has its issues, which is again why I think they should be compared to others, to learn from others and to improve like others.
		
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Just to clarify, my comment you have quoted above was not directed at you.

You can definitely learn from what other sports are doing, but that is not the same thing as saying that the welfare problems in racing shouldn't be discussed, or racing is being painted as 'the bad guy' because we are discussing racing as opposed to something else.  It is impossible to discuss everything in one go, but i think most people care about welfare across the board.  sometimes it is hard to see the welfare concerns in your own sport, because you're a bit too close to it, and also there is a degree of cognitive dissonance involved in actually accepting your sport does have welfare concerns.  there are not many people who can be truly objective about a thing they love - sport, person or animal!  I am sure people would look at the way i care for my horses and some would disagree with some things i do.  but i am only one person with a small herd of horses on my own land, not a multi-million pound industry that is responsible for the existence and welfare of thousands of horses.


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