# Laminitis and snow



## milliethemoo (6 February 2009)

I have been told that snow and heavy frost can bring on laminitis. Is this so ?


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## Shanny (6 February 2009)

Hi Milliethemoo.

My farrier told me this too, but didn't explain the reasons why!?  

I am sure I've read somewhere that frosty grass can cause colic as well.


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## kellyeaton (6 February 2009)

i have never heard snow can cause lammi but yes certainly frosty grass can triger it what it is when the grass is frosty the sun warms it up and defrosts it when the sun is doing this it causes all the sugars in thr grass to rise to the top of the grass thats why it causes lammi. if you have a frosty cold day with no sun you are safer because the grass thraws on its own!


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## teddyt (6 February 2009)

I think frost then sunny days increases the sugar in grass because the light triggers photosynthesis but because it is too cold the grass doesnt grow so the sugar builds up in the grass. Also, stressed grass accumulates sugar so snow might stress the grass?


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## alisonpook (6 February 2009)

I think I read recently that there is a thought that the cold from the snow / frost etc may have an adverse effect in some laminitis prone horses and that some horses find leg wraps beneficial in cold weather. My Cushings horse now has thermatex leg warmers on if turned out on cold days and I have put him a large straw 'square' down to stand and eat his hay on. Magnetic bell boots were also mentioned as being useful.


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## TarrSteps (6 February 2009)

It is the change in temperature that's supposed to precipitate laminitis  Or is it just from a grazing perspective?

I'm just curious why horses that live in snowy climates aren't foundering every day of the week?  In fact, from anecdotal evidence, I'd say it seems to be LESS of a problem in places like that, although that probably has to do with differences in grazing, popular horse types etc.


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## alisonpook (7 February 2009)

Hi - Sorry should have been a little clearer. My info was taken from a thread on the metabolic site which referred to the effect of cold on chronic laminitics. It has been noted that some chronic laminitics become uncomfortable in cold weather but unfortunately the mechanism causing the discomfort is unknown. As this was US based the few degrees of frost in the Uk may well be a different matter to the plummeting temperatures over there. Sorry didn't mean to scaremonger.


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## Tiggy1 (7 February 2009)

Mine has been turned out with a haynet with no ill effects.
I thought it was the frost and sun causing sugar issue not snow.


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## milliethemoo (7 February 2009)

thanks for all your replys that makes sense as the pony was eating defrosted grass around the edges on a sunny day. will not let that happen again !!.


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## PapaFrita (8 February 2009)

Ages ago I went to a lecture at Rossdales about laminitis, and that there was evidence to suggest that extreme cold was actually beneficial to a laminitic's feet. I think, as someone suggested, that the problem comes from eating frosty grass rather than the temperature of the ground.


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## alleycat (8 February 2009)

I am interested to see this as I believe that extreme cold CAN cause hoof problems of this kind, based on an experience one winter with my pony mare. 

She was not lamnitic, and normally lived out with other ponies. One winter we had an extremely cold snap; snow followed by freezing weather with very low ground temperatures. I noticed that she seemed a bit pottery, as if her feet weren't quite comfortable, and brought her into a spare stable to warm them up. (The YO laughed at me, it was such an odd notion; but my own feet felt like blocks of ice in my wellies, and she looked like I felt, so to speak.) 
She went back out later that afternoon and had no further problems, but when the farrier next trimmed her he asked whether she had had an episode of laminitis and showed me bruising or staining in the trimmed horn which he said suggested an attack.

I therefore think that if by bad luck a horse's feet do drop below a certain temperature, perhaps by standing still too long on frozen ground, damage can occur, and this damage mimics laminitis, just as we can get chilblains from extreme cold, though this isn't something that happens routinely.

Edited to say that I wouldn't normally worry about turning a horse out in snow, etc., but following that experience I would watch it more carefully now; and if it shifted its weight or looked uncomfy, I'd take that seriously.


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## kellyeaton (8 February 2009)

the only reason i would say the cold ground was good for lammi feet his the first thing i was always told to by my vet was if i horse has pulses give bute bring in and cold hose feet. but then i can see your point of view awelll alleycat. i dont think it is the frosty grass i think it is all about when the sun is defrosting it!


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## Jo C (8 February 2009)

All I can say is that both my vet and farrier have warned me about turning out on frosty/frozen grass and my farrier had 2 new cases of laminitis yesterday. Coincidence?


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## Cuffey (8 February 2009)

Interesting thread and lots of good advice
ie that sugars are stored in grass on sunny frosty days when it is too cold for grass to grow. So the day after a really sunny frosty day could have high sugar grass. Dull frosty days out are safer.
That leg warmers can help with older/insulin resistant ponies and horses.
Leg warmers help us to maintain good blood circulation to our feet--same for ponies
My pony who shows some of the signs of Cushings (long curly coat but does not drink more than normal) had a difficult time in early December when we had 2 weeks of frost, he did not follow his friend down the grazing just stood in one place in the paddock looking miserable but eating hay delivered to his spot, his feet were sore and he just pottered--however it did not seem to be a laminitis attack, his heels were sore, he kept resting alternate hind feet and a trim recently showed no signs of lami. Vet just offered Danilon but it had no effect.  Leg warmers at night however did help.
We have had further cold weather and this time (touches wood) he seems OK--seen bucking a few days ago!!
He has extra magnesium and agnus castis in his diet with some Hi Fi Lite and Speedibeet and top Spec Antilam
The only thing I have done differently since early December is clip and rug him including neck rug, his coat was so long he was not getting dry and when the sun was out he was sweating. Farrier took minimum hoof off at the last trim.  He seems much more comfortable and happy without his winter woolies!  Still got his leg warmers on though!


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## jvoyce (8 February 2009)

This is an interesting one for me.  My horse has acute laminitis that started when we had the first big freeze 4 weeks ago.  He has been diagnosed with insulin resistance/metabolic syndrome so has a low starch diet and turnout with no grass so there can be no dietary reason for this episode.  We'd wondered whether it could be triggered by concussion on frozen ground but maybe it is as simple as the cold ?


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## alisonpook (8 February 2009)

Lliedi - My vet says they tend to get sudden batches  of horses with laminitis after frosty spells  -  they had a surge of cases in early January - and he feels some of them are as a result of concussion on the hard , frosty ground .


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## teddyt (8 February 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
the only reason i would say the cold ground was good for lammi feet his the first thing i was always told to by my vet was if i horse has pulses give bute bring in and cold hose feet. but then i can see your point of view awelll alleycat. i dont think it is the frosty grass i think it is all about when the sun is defrosting it! 

[/ QUOTE ]
It used to be recommended to cold hose feet or stand in a stream but latest research says not to as it can actually make laminitis worse. There has been some research into extreme cold inhibiting the development of laminitis but this is in the first 72 hours, which has no clinical signs. This research was carried out on ponies that had experimentally induced laminitis, i.e. they knew it was coming. Once the horse is showing clinical signs of laminitis cold is thought to make it worse as it restricts the blood flow to the feet even further.


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## jvoyce (8 February 2009)

Trouble is, whatever the cause the outcome is the same.  It seems that this bout is the final straw for my boy - vet's coming to see him tomorrow


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## gothdolly (10 February 2009)

Oh no, Lliedi, are you OK? Is it really the end for your boy? 

Im struggling with laminitis prevention at the moment - my lad has had it two year running in Feb/March.


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## suejs001 (26 November 2010)

Hello, 
Snow can cause laminitis, it basically freezes the foot, the blood vessles are then damaged blood cannot get to the foot and the lamini starts to seperate from the pedal bone.  Some horses have more sensitive feet than others and it is the compaction of the snow / ice in the hoof (in the shod horse)   I have first hand experience of this from the snow from last year, my horse got acute laminitis and this became chronic I nearly lost him.  the pedal bone rotated and sunk all from the snow basically freezing his hoof. 

Please be aware that this is not the same cause of laminitis as frosty grass.  Frosty grass is a trigger as it contains high levels of NSC fructans which are sugars which then upset the gut flora as normal laminitis.  Also... (as if this was not enough!!!)  The hard ground can cause concussion. 

I am petrified of the snow and my ponies feet / frozen grass etc ...


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## Tnavas (26 November 2010)

If this is the case how come the Shetland, Exmoor & Dartmor ponies aren't all suffering from lami? Laminitis never used to be this prevelant in the era I had my ponies - the difference though was that we didn't feed anything except some hay on snowy days. They wintered out, with no covers, if we hard fed all that was available were oats, barley, Spillers Horse & Pony cubes, Bran and Sugarbeet. We didn't strip graze but allowed our horses and ponies free access to roam their field and exercise when they felt like it. INteresingly we didn't add masses of supplements either. Yet our horses and ponies were sound, worked far harder than they seem to these  days - we would ride to pony club, shows, to the hunt meet and generally didn't hard feed.

Nowadays everyone seems to be obsessed with feeding - something - often a processed feed, strip grazes so that the horse has limited space and then riders wonder why they get hyper to ride - they've not been able to have a hoon around. Exercise is one of the most important parts of maintaining a healthy horse. A horse on strip grazing can't do that.

The horses in my Signature live out 24/7 are not covered have no hard feed, last winter had no hay as the field as there was plenty of 'Hay on the Stalk' all they do have is a large multi mineral block that is left out in the paddock - they go through a couple a year.


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## FinkleyAlex (26 November 2010)

At the risk of sounding completely thick - does sunlight have the same effect on snow as it does frost? My boy had lammi about 5 years ago and fortunately (fingers crossed) hasn't had it again but I try to be as informed as possible as I know it could come back at any time. He also has athritis so I try to avoid keeping him in unless absolutely necessary. As we have already had a fair bit of snow up in Norfolk, should I be keeping him in on sunny days?


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## AngieandBen (27 November 2010)

Evelyn said:



			If this is the case how come the Shetland, Exmoor & Dartmor ponies aren't all suffering from lami? Laminitis never used to be this prevelant in the era I had my ponies - the difference though was that we didn't feed anything except some hay on snowy days. They wintered out, with no covers, if we hard fed all that was available were oats, barley, Spillers Horse & Pony cubes, Bran and Sugarbeet. We didn't strip graze but allowed our horses and ponies free access to roam their field and exercise when they felt like it. INteresingly we didn't add masses of supplements either. Yet our horses and ponies were sound, worked far harder than they seem to these  days - we would ride to pony club, shows, to the hunt meet and generally didn't hard feed.

Nowadays everyone seems to be obsessed with feeding - something - often a processed feed, strip grazes so that the horse has limited space and then riders wonder why they get hyper to ride - they've not been able to have a hoon around. Exercise is one of the most important parts of maintaining a healthy horse. A horse on strip grazing can't do that.

The horses in my Signature live out 24/7 are not covered have no hard feed, last winter had no hay as the field as there was plenty of 'Hay on the Stalk' all they do have is a large multi mineral block that is left out in the paddock - they go through a couple a year.
		
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In a way I completley agree!  But, a lot of our pasture has been grown for fattening cattle   My native ponies live out, although restricted from April until the first frosts ( they still have at least an acre)I do use a track system which keeps them moving.

I don't take them off frosty or snowy grass, never have done, but then they don't get fed, clipped or rugged either!


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## Lotty (27 November 2010)

My mare had lami earlier this year so I don't turn her out until lunchtime. My vet said its once the grass starts to thaw that the sugar content becomes very high that is the danger for those prone to lami or similar.


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## AngieandBen (27 November 2010)

Lotty said:



			My mare had lami earlier this year so I don't turn her out until lunchtime. My vet said its once the grass starts to thaw that the sugar content becomes very high that is the danger for those prone to lami or similar.
		
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See, I was always lead to believe that lunchtime is the worst time to turnout as the sun is at its highest, therefore sugar levels are higher as the've had a few hours to work?!!  If I had a problem I would be  turning out at 4pm and bringing them in around 8/9am.


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## Daisy2 (1 December 2010)

Oh its such a dilema, I have muzzled and stripped grazed my guys up until two days ago because the ground was so hard on the strip I felt it would be better for them to have the whole field, softer, can move around and access to the stream instead of frozen buckets which freeze as soon as I defrost, anyway, my heart is in my mouth, I just hope that they stay sound, check for heat in the mornings, no hard feed or hay and unrugged but 13 acres of grass...No stable facilties so trying to choose the best of two evils hard ground no grass or soft ground and lots of it...


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## brucea (2 December 2010)

I have a chronic "professional" laminitic and I havea  "recreational" laminitic. In both cases grass is an issue

They are both out in the snow now enjoying a normal herd life - perfectly fine. A prolonged period of snow is good for them I think. They do get grass, but they are having to work very hard to get a significant amount.


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## Luci07 (2 December 2010)

Hunt for the other very recent post on laminitis - the person whose horse was affected had an arab with thin walls and the snow had balled up in the foot, frozen and caused this. So in theory horses whom are barefoot/thick walls would not have this issue. I put "legwarmers" on my older mare now as a matter of course - can't hurt and she is being an almight wooz about being turned out in the snow for a couple of hours (and she HAS to be because that is the only exercise she will get till it stops freezing!)


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## Kokopelli (2 December 2010)

Laminitis is basically a lack of blood flow to the hoofs, the cold weather can restrict this blood flow further as the veins constrict in the cold which is why this cold weather may cause laminitis.


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## Lotty (3 December 2010)

Kokopelli said:



			Laminitis is basically a lack of blood flow to the hoofs, the cold weather can restrict this blood flow further as the veins constrict in the cold which is why this cold weather may cause laminitis.
		
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My farrier told me this so I only turn my mare out for an hour.


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## Luciejjkk (3 December 2010)

So am I right in thinking that the snow can be a problem directly to the physical hoof which can lead to lami

whereas

turning out on frost can cause an internal problem with sugar levels etc which leads to lami??

Is that right??


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## brucea (3 December 2010)

Hmm...if that was the case then the hooves would die and fall off all the horses, they would have terminal frostbite and be lying on their backs in the morning.


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## touchstone (3 December 2010)

brucea said:



			Hmm...if that was the case then the hooves would die and fall off all the horses, they would have terminal frostbite and be lying on their backs in the morning.
		
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That is true! 
 The horse has the ability to divert the blood flow from the arteries directly to the veins avoiding the sensitive blood vessels which is why they don't get frostbite and their feet drop off!  I would suspect that in a laminitic prone horse that this mechanism in itself might be sufficient to upset the balance and trigger an attack - my laminitic prone is fine out in the snow at -15, so not all laminitics are affected.


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## Violett (3 December 2010)

Hi,do i assume if a horse / pony has hole in hoof wall so the inside of the hoof is exposed then if turned out in snow that would be an even greater risk????


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## tallyho! (5 December 2010)

http://www.aebm.org.au/documents/safergrass_seminar.pdf


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## horserosemary (13 January 2011)

Hi my  mare has laminitis, the vets says chrionic we are waiting on the results of blood tests, as she is not responding to anti inflammatories and pain relief, but she was out during all the cold snow and ice. On haylage.
You said you nearly lost your horse, how did your horse respond to treatment and what treatment was she given?  I'm very concerned that there has been to much damage done already, and thats why shes not responding! Any suggestions.


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## amandap (13 January 2011)

horserosemary said:



			Hi my  mare has laminitis, the vets says chrionic we are waiting on the results of blood tests, as she is not responding to anti inflammatories and pain relief, but she was out during all the cold snow and ice. On haylage.
You said you nearly lost your horse, how did your horse respond to treatment and what treatment was she given?  I'm very concerned that there has been to much damage done already, and thats why shes not responding! Any suggestions.
		
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I suggest you stop the haylage and give her hay soaked for minimum of twelve hours and rinsed. In my experience well soaked hay is by far the best feed for acute laminitis.


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## glenruby (13 January 2011)

Brucea - that wouldnt happen as the equine digit is well equipped to resist cold temps by mechanisms such as what Touchstone has described. However, constant exposure to serious sub zero temps (remember ground temp is usually colder than air temp) may cause the blood vessels to constrict for long periods - which due to the "protective" mechanisms in the hoof may result in necrosis of the laminae. It would appear that this is as bad as it gets - though actually I do know of one QHx in North America to fall foul of a horrendous case of lami this past week which has resulted in severe bilateral pedal bone rotation (through the sole) combined with the start of sloughing of one hoof. No evidence of selenium toxicity. No previous history of lami, turned out 24/7 in very small bare paddock.

It is all, of course, only a theory, but an increasingly common one and since laminitis is STILL to a great extent unexplained/a mystery then I would be careful until proven otherwise.


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## Rose Folly (14 January 2011)

My previously non-laminitic mare has been crippled since Christmas with laminitis. Both the emergency vet and my own vet put it down to frosted grass - we were having constant night temperatures of -11C and it never got above zero during the day. I personally think it was compounded by some much richer haylage than we normally have, and too much of it (kindness killing). The emergency vet told me she'd been out 3 times in 48 hours to previously non-laminitic horses over Christmas.


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## iestynlad (16 January 2011)

Sad but glad to read all these posts re: winter lami. Most people think it is all about grass! Check this and see my other posts: 2 ponies living out on bare turnout (no access to grass - it is woodchip). 1 EMS and chronic laminitic, 1 Cushings (previously 1 lami attack was prob grass). Both laminitic this winter at onset of freezing weather. 
I entirely buy the argument about freezing blood vessels BUT they both had digestive upsets too. Chronic really bad Xmas day, other off feed. Both now recovered from lami and digestive upset after probiotic (6 day dose) and prebiotic ongoing. 
There must be a common cause for the digestive and the lami as symptoms were together so we are back to the usual cause of lami - toxicity. Does this rule out the freezing blood vessels argument? 
What about Seasonal Affective Disorder in equines?  Given I have both with hormonal problems and SAD affects hormones we are back to the shortening daylight hours argument (see some other posts on this around this subject).
Theory: shorter daylight = affect on hormones = affect on ability to digest/metabolise = colic/digestive upset = toxicity = laminitis
Anyone help me out with this please? Any research done on SAD on equines. 
If this theory is correct how come equines in the Nordic countries aren't dropping like flies in the winter? or could it be that the ones with a predisposition e.g. EMS and Cushings actually are. Anyone with experience of equines in Scandinavia or other cold climes with longer hours of winter darkness?


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## bensababy (17 January 2011)

All i can add is those that are still feeding haylage to Laminitics - stop feeding it.


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## brucea (18 January 2011)

^^^^^


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## Katkin (18 January 2011)

Just found this thread and it makes interesting reading.  I have two ponies which are prone to laminitus and are therefore carefully managed.  The younger has only ever had an attack of lami during winter months (frosty grass or perhaps combined with extremely hard ground - concussion).  Interestingly the older of the two (who has never had full blown lami but only goes footy) had terribly bruised hooves at the end of last winter.  With 4 white feet it was easy to see the extensive red bruising which the farrier put down to the extreme cold and restricted blood vessels.  Neither of them are fed ad-lib hay but are fed old hay twice a day along with Alfa-Lite and Top Spec balancer.  I was tempted to bring them off the grass as soon as the cold weather started in November but I've taken a chance, left them out and strangely enough neither of them have gone footy or shown other signs of the onset of lami.  I don't know if this is the connection but the only difference between the regime for last year and this is that I have fed the Alfa-Lite and balancer to pad out their hay ration as opposed to just a field supplement and rationed hay.  Fingers crossed I've cracked it but we'll wait and see!


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## cptrayes (18 January 2011)

Katkin there are a lot of barefoot horses that do not do well on either Top Spec or alfalfa. I would not feed either to a known laminitic. On the other hand I have fed haylage to one severe non-typical (fit eventer) laminitic and one insulin resistant horse with no issues at all.   It just goes to show each horse is an individual!


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## brucea (18 January 2011)

Both mine just went footy right away on the haylage CPT - 3 days and the cob was footy!


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## cptrayes (18 January 2011)

I think it's a bit like hay Bruce, there is hay and there is hay. Hay cut at 6pm on a sunny day will be full of sugar, and hay cut at 9am from the same field may be fine. Haylage, really well made, will have a lot of the sugar fermented out of it into alcohol. It's interesting to see just how keen horses can be on a newly opened bale compared to the same bale which has been open 7 days and all the alcohol evaporated away   

I'm guessing I have been lucky with the haylage that I bought. One lot (the atypical horse) was top class competition horse haylage and very expensive but perfectly made new ley ryegrass haylage. The other (the IR horse) was grown at height, cut in September and unfertilised hill meadow.

I don't doubt that soaked hay is safest, but with the IR horse it simply did not give him enough calories for his work, and it seems, with him, safer to feed him haylage than to feed him straights to give him the calories he needs for a serious workload.

I continue to be amazed at just how individual horses are in their nutritional requirements.


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