# Racing Welfare: The Horse Comes First



## Spilletta (25 June 2015)

I recall some heated debates about racing on this forum, normally around Grand National time, so when I spotted this today, I thought it worth posting for anyone interested.

Leading organisations in British Horseracing are working together to raise awareness of the high levels of equine welfare in the sport. This is the microsite:

http://www.thehorsecomesfirst.com/


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## PaddyMonty (25 June 2015)

Sorry but if the horse really did come first the they wouldn't be raced as 2yo.

Raise the minimum (true) age to 5 and I wouldn't have an issue with racing.


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## SpringArising (25 June 2015)

And provide more turnout. That's my one major issue with the industry.


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## webble (25 June 2015)

PaddyMonty said:



			Sorry but if the horse really did come first the they wouldn't be raced as 2yo.

Raise the minimum (true) age to 5 and I wouldn't have an issue with racing.
		
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Agreed


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## ycbm (25 June 2015)

The 14,000 horses registered in training at any one time enjoy a quality of life virtually unsurpassed by any other domesticated animal.
		
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My free range cats and horses would not agree. Neither do I.  I do not think horses judge quality of life by clean shiny coats or well mucked out stables. 




			A study by Liverpool University found that 62% of traumatic injuries (ranging from grazes to fractures) suffered by a sample of leisure and competition horses occurred when turned out in the field, compared to only 13% during ridden exercise. The British Horse Society also estimates that there are over 3,000 road accidents annually involving horses.
		
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Of what relevance is this as an answer to the question of how dangerous racing is? If racehorses were turned out as much as leisure horses, they would get the same injuries. It's not a reason for preventing turnout in those racing yards which don't turn out. Are they still the majority?


Very interesting to see that deaths in racing have reduced over the last twenty years from three in one thousand starters to two in one thousand starters though.  If each of the 14,000 horses in training runs an average of, say, five times in the year, then only 140 will die each year on the race track instead of 210.  It is a big improvement, I wonder what they attribute it to?


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## ycbm (25 June 2015)

PaddyMonty said:



			Sorry but if the horse really did come first the they wouldn't be raced as 2yo.

Raise the minimum (true) age to 5 and I wouldn't have an issue with racing.
		
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Agree except I'd be happy to see flat racers broken at three, not before, and lightly raced on the flat only, no hurdles (do we hurdle three year olds, I think the French do?) provided they also had several hours turnout a day.


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## Elf On A Shelf (25 June 2015)

ycbm said:



			Agree except I'd be happy to see flat racers broken at three, not before, and lightly raced on the flat only, no hurdles (do we hurdle three year olds, I think the French do?) provided they also had several hours turnout a day.
		
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Yes we have Juvenine Hurdles for 3yos from May onwards. From Jan- end of April the Juvenile races are 4yos - the previous seasons 3yos. Nothing will run athe big Festivals until it is 4yo. 

I do not agree with 2yo racing. 3yo +.


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## Elf On A Shelf (25 June 2015)

SpringArising said:



			And provide more turnout. That's my one major issue with the industry.
		
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A lot of yards are now turning out more. Mostly jumping yards granted. It is hard in a yard for 100+ where have a 75/25 split in favour of the colts to turn them all out safely. 

Our yard turn out. We try to get every horse out at least twice a week. It is not possible to do more than this mid season due to the volume of horses in.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (25 June 2015)

Racing of two year olds is part of the structure of racing, so it will never end, but you have to be aware that these two year olds are always far more forward than the average leisure horse at two. In addition the riders are lightweight and are professional riders, its not rocket science, but the horse maturity and the weight are relevant.
Also lots of people on here tend to assume all registered TBs are run at two, have ulcers and flat feet, this is just not true.


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## Meowy Catkin (25 June 2015)

They are no more skeletally mature than an average leisure horse.


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## hackneylass2 (26 June 2015)

Agree with Faracat. Also, in the last 20 years veterinary treatment has evolved quite a lot.

I would think that the introduction of racing horses at 3 and then a long lead in to racing them at 4 would provide massive welfare improvements.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (26 June 2015)

Faracat said:



			They are no more skeletally mature than an average leisure horse.
		
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I don't know how to answer this, as am no expert, but most are born two months earlier than leisure horses [a lot of effort goes in to eg  getting early foals] and they are well fed before and after birth, so will be more forward skeletally than an animal which is "held back", in the way we see horses which have been rescues or poorly fed when young take longer to become skeletally mature. They are also in professional hands so any problem eg limb problems are sorted f possible as soon as it is spotted. World class veterinary treatment is available for world class horses, due in no part to the moneys involved.
There is evidence that the conditioning methods used in racing will affect bone development, which re models in response. The scientific [modern] training methods may have affected affect on course fatalities and injuries.
I am not here to defend racing, just saying that no comments on here or elsewhere will change the age of racing horses, its part of the structure of the industry, and it is an industry it is all geared to certain patterns of racing, which will never change.


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## fburton (26 June 2015)

ycbm said:



			Agree except I'd be happy to see flat racers broken at three, not before, and lightly raced on the flat only, no hurdles (do we hurdle three year olds, I think the French do?) provided they also had several hours turnout a day.
		
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This would be a very welcome move, I agree.


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## ester (26 June 2015)

ycbm said:



			My free range cats and horses would not agree. Neither do I.  I do not think horses judge quality of life by clean shiny coats or well mucked out stables. 



Of what relevance is this as an answer to the question of how dangerous racing is? If racehorses were turned out as much as leisure horses, they would get the same injuries. It's not a reason for preventing turnout in those racing yards which don't turn out. Are they still the majority?


Very interesting to see that deaths in racing have reduced over the last twenty years from three in one thousand starters to two in one thousand starters though.  If each of the 14,000 horses in training runs an average of, say, five times in the year, then only 140 will die each year on the race track instead of 210.  It is a big improvement, I wonder what they attribute it to?
		
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It's a complete non argument, by many measures battery hens are technically healthier (ie suffer less disease etc) than free range. That doesn't make it better!


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## Blurr (26 June 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			I don't know how to answer this, as am no expert, but most are born two months earlier than leisure horses [a lot of effort goes in to eg  getting early foals] and they are well fed before and after birth, so will be more forward skeletally than an animal which is "held back", in the way we see horses which have been rescues or poorly fed when young take longer to become skeletally mature. They are also in professional hands so any problem eg limb problems are sorted f possible as soon as it is spotted. World class veterinary treatment is available for world class horses, due in no part to the moneys involved.
There is evidence that the conditioning methods used in racing will affect bone development, which re models in response. The scientific [modern] training methods may have affected affect on course fatalities and injuries.
I am not here to defend racing, just saying that no comments on here or elsewhere will change the age of racing horses, its part of the structure of the industry, and it is an industry it is all geared to certain patterns of racing, which will never change.
		
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The feed and exercise will affect musculature and bone density but I've never seen any evidence to suggest that it will affect the maturation of bone in terms of bringing forward the times growth plates are closed, and that is what people are referring to when they say that maturation in the TB is the same as any other horse.  I totally agree that knowledge of this (and it is well known, long before the oft quoted 'Ranger Piece' became popular) will not change the racing industry - people want a quick return on their cash.


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## Meowy Catkin (26 June 2015)

Blurr said:



			The feed and exercise will affect musculature and bone density but I've never seen any evidence to suggest that it will affect the maturation of bone in terms of bringing forward the times growth plates are closed, and that is what people are referring to when they say that maturation in the TB is the same as any other horse.  I totally agree that knowledge of this (and it is well known, long before the oft quoted 'Ranger Piece' became popular) will not change the racing industry - people want a quick return on their cash.
		
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Exactly this.


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## Meowy Catkin (26 June 2015)

I should add that it's worth reading the Ranger article mentioned above as it also discusses what pre race conditioning actually does to the bones. http://www.equinestudies.org/ranger_2008/ranger_piece_2008_pdf1.pdf


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## Clodagh (26 June 2015)

Horses that are bred to do a job are always going to have compromises. I think I would rather be a racehorse than a show hoorse - rugged, stabled, tied down with side reins in the box and so on.
As long as they are offered the best possible care, within the confines of the industry expactations I don't have a problem. Yes, living out would be nice, and I am glad that some yards are going towards having turnout but compare a tb to a gypsy trotter - both are born to race, but the care is not comparable.


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## Meowy Catkin (26 June 2015)

I don't really know anything about gypsy trotters and their care so can't comment on that.

I do know a few people in the racing industry though and it does make me very cross when the anti-racing types make sweeping statements about how no-one in the racing industry cares for the horses' welfare. This isn't what I have found, as IME they care very much. The stud that I used to live near, cared for their broodies, foals and youngsters very well and 'naturally'. They were out, unrugged in herds. I have seen young TB's being backed and they were ridden by a lady that wasn't a tiny jockey... I'm being tactful there, so I've never believed that they are only ever ridden by lightweight riders. My own late TB had been born at that stud mentioned above and she was mentally scarred from her time in race training and couldn't take being stabled at all. I have known a lot more ex racers than her though and the vast majority were not affected like that and actually seemed like pretty balanced individuals.


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## ester (26 June 2015)

I don't think comparing them to gypsy trotters mean it's ok ... and that it rather depends on the definition of 'best possible care' when many that come out of racing have shocking feet as well as other issues as long as they keep running well - it doesn't often seem that long term welfare is considered on the flat. I don't think Michen's poor lad was that long out of racing for example but had a whole host of issues.


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## Meowy Catkin (26 June 2015)

There is definitely seems to be a dichotomy in racing where the people that deal with the horses daily do care, but the system that they work within, isn't that horse friendly in many ways (eg starting them so young, lack of daily turnout, high incidence of gastric ulcers etc...).


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## Equi (26 June 2015)

I think anyone who has had a tb off a racing yard will agree they can have a lot of psychological issues (weaving, anger, cribbing, box walking etc) 

Horses are just not meant to live in a box.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (26 June 2015)

Blurr said:



			The feed and exercise will affect musculature and bone density but I've never seen any evidence to suggest that it will affect the maturation of bone in terms of bringing forward the times growth plates are closed, and that is what people are referring to when they say that maturation in the TB is the same as any other horse.  I totally agree that knowledge of this (and it is well known, long before the oft quoted 'Ranger Piece' became popular) will not change the racing industry - people want a quick return on their cash.
		
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I am not here to defend the people who buy racehorses, if they want a quick return on cash they can go to the bookies this afternoon, I can give them a tip, or maybe buy in to the art world, or a lottery ticket.
No way does anyone go in to racing to make money, what planet are you on?
Most people do not seem to understand the structure of the racing industry but are happy to demand a re structuring. It makes no difference, we have what we have, there will always be races for two year olds, and it will never be illegal. If it were illegal in the UK it would just shift to another country where welfare would be disregarded, ask the endurance people what happens when the Arabs have control.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (26 June 2015)

equi said:



			I think anyone who has had a tb off a racing yard will agree they can have a lot of psychological issues (weaving, anger, cribbing, box walking etc) 

Horses are just not meant to live in a box.
		
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Really? I have seen horses who have never raced doing all these things.  I have worked in racing and none of our horses weaved, or box walked. I was at a big stud a few months ago and a foal was cribbing on the water trough, it was three months old.
I bought a little filly out of racing and she had a few mental problems, but after four months she won several races and seemed quite happy to live with us, her former jockey came to  see us, I was having my coffee in her stable, she was leaning against me, hing legs leaning, he said ,  "no one goes in her  box" ....... really? 
Ditto a stallion who had "savaged his groom" the vet refused to handle him without a twitch and sedation, absolute rubbish.
Most of the people who post on here have never worked in a racing yard, I can tell this by their posts.


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## Optimissteeq (26 June 2015)

equi said:



			I think anyone who has had a tb off a racing yard will agree they can have a lot of psychological issues (weaving, anger, cribbing, box walking etc) 

Horses are just not meant to live in a box.
		
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From my own personal experience I can't agree with this. I've seen many OTTB re-homed and not one of them exhibited the behaviours you have listed. It's too much of a sweeping statement IMO. I have 3 TB's myself - 2 have raced and the other one hasn't - guess which one crib bites? 
Yes, there will be some that exhibit those behaviours but that's the same for horses who aren't ex-racers.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (26 June 2015)

ester said:



			I don't think comparing them to gypsy trotters mean it's ok ... and that it rather depends on the definition of 'best possible care' when many that come out of racing have shocking feet as well as other issues as long as they keep running well - it doesn't often seem that long term welfare is considered on the flat. I don't think Michen's poor lad was that long out of racing for example but had a whole host of issues.
		
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I really think her horse was the exception not the rule, loads of leisure horses fail vettings, it is not because thy have been kept in a stable for a year. Racehorses are not actually stabled 24/7, they go out for some exercise, usually twice a day. In my experience young horses sleep a lot  anyway. Certainly most horses in racing are left in the afternoon for a zizz. Our farrier was far better than the average farrier for leisure horses, they don't get the job unless they are better than average.
I had my ponies in a local yard and discovered there was a stallion there one day, poor thing had been locked in for three months, what is that about?


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## Jim bob (26 June 2015)

I can see both sides really. The racing side and the non racing side, I have a OTTB, and yes he does crib, windsuck and can box walk as well as having flat feet. I believe people in the racing industry do care. However I disagree with racing the horses at 2 year olds. My horse was one of the lucky ones, due to his size and a decent trainer they waited until he was 3 before training and he was bred for flat. That's another thing that annoys me. There not seen as pets, there seen as an animal there to do a job and sadly when they cant do the job or are too slow then they move on. I went to a racing open day near me last year and the amount of horses that were going to auction eg the meat man if not gone in the week. There was a lot of them, they were just racehorses that were no longer needed, that how they end up in bad homes or with people who don't understand their needs. 
So;
not racing the horses so young, starting at 4 for example. I know so many young ex racers who have joint problems, or soundness issues. and most of it , from vets have said its due to the hard work of racing. Also They litrally never get a day off. Even your eventers get at least a day off. When their doing work as hard as a racehorse you need a day off. If you think a horse has been overworked, its continued with the training but has pulled something, it cant tell you and if its not that painful they will pay for that later in life. 

Were talking about racehorses, not cobs and stallions.


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## be positive (27 June 2015)

Jim bob;12953573

There not seen as pets said:
			
		


			They are NOT pets they are owned frequently by people who look at them as an investment, a very expensive one, they are there to do a job and if they cannot do that job then they are sold on, pts or sent to stud, the same happens to leisure horses not all live an idyllic life in retirement once they are no longer able to do the job they were bought for.

Most racehorses will have a day off every week, they are rarely exercised on Sunday when the yard will have a quiet day with limited staff on duty, they obviously do work hard to become as fit as possible but to say they literally never get a day off is ridiculous.

Most NH horses are currently turned out 24/7 having a well earned holiday, the top trainer near me has fields of horses lounging about, they will start to come back in within the next few weeks and the few that are still in training are getting turned out each day after work for a few hours, it may not be perfect but most are looked after well within the constraints of a very demanding industry and many do retire to an active life afterwards.
		
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## Alec Swan (27 June 2015)

be positive said:



			They are NOT pets &#8230;&#8230;..
&#8230;&#8230;..then they are sold on, pts or sent to stud, &#8230;&#8230;...
		
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I agree with you,  except that those which fail to live up to the hopes of their owners,  rarely go to stud,  thankfully.  If a horse proves to be useless for its intended purpose,  then there would be little point in breeding from it,  only to produce more which are useless.  The odd Black Type filly may be bred from,  even though she herself has no supporting record,  but it would be unusual.

As with racing greyhounds,  all so often,  racehorses rarely fill any other role in life following their early years of training and treatment.  There will be the odd animal which will go to the odd home,  and which will then go on and to a useful life,  but they are the exception,  rather than the rule.  

Plucking figures from the air,  I'd guess that perhaps less than 10% of racehorses bred,  go on to succeed and win,  and many of those that do join the detritus of the industry and then again fail to live up to the ambitions of their new owners.  I don't like it any more than anyone else,  but the breeding,  keeping and training costs of racehorses is a precarious business,  and the failure rate is huge.  The 'industry',  both from the Owner's and Trainer's perspective is already a balanced and risky business,  that the funding simply isn't in place to have these horses treated as charity cases.

The Meat Man?  Is it really such a bad thing?  Is it not a better and a more responsible end for the animal,  rather than spending the rest of its days living the miserable life that many do?  When we took in three TB mares as ET recipient mares,  and from established stud farms,  the condition attached to all of them was that they were humanely destroyed,  when we no longer needed them,  and that's exactly what we did.  One went to the Hunt Kennels,  and the other two were taken away dead,  by the knackerman. 

If we're to consider 'Welfare',  then the responsible will accept,  how ever distasteful it may be,  that the end of a career,  no matter how short and for most horses,  will be the end of their lives.  It's the better way.

Alec.


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## MotherOfChickens (27 June 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			I agree with you,  except that those which fail to live up to the hopes of their owners,  rarely go to stud,  thankfully.  If a horse proves to be useless for its intended purpose,  then there would be little point in breeding from it,  only to produce more which are useless.  The odd Black Type filly may be bred from,  even though she herself has no supporting record,  but it would be unusual.
		
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you say that Alec but in my experience, loads of fillies that didn't make it on to a track went to stud instead. I worked in a pre training/sales prep/rehab/spelling yard which was full of very nicely bred horses. So many never made it even into training and lots of those that were female were sent to stud. To me the stats that focus on track and training injuries mean little, because there's a whole raft of animals below that that have already been discarded.

I am not one to think the knackerman is the worst fate for a horse but equally I don't think animals should be disposable to that extent-not when it could possibly be improved upon by using slightly older horses.


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## Blurr (29 June 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			I am not here to defend the people who buy racehorses, if they want a quick return on cash they can go to the bookies this afternoon, I can give them a tip, or maybe buy in to the art world, or a lottery ticket.
No way does anyone go in to racing to make money, what planet are you on?
Most people do not seem to understand the structure of the racing industry but are happy to demand a re structuring. It makes no difference, we have what we have, there will always be races for two year olds, and it will never be illegal. If it were illegal in the UK it would just shift to another country where welfare would be disregarded, ask the endurance people what happens when the Arabs have control.
		
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I'm on the planet where the owners of race horses don't want to pay to keep them for three years before finding out if they're any good.  That's why they race two year olds.


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## Optimissteeq (29 June 2015)

Blurr said:



			I'm on the planet where the owners of race horses don't want to pay to keep them for three years before finding out if they're any good.  That's why they race two year olds.
		
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I am incline to agreed with you to a degree, but I don't understand the logic behind this. Surely it costs more to have a two year old horse in training than it does having a two year old at grass in a field? This is the part I don't get - if it boiled down to costs alone then it would be cheaper to wait until it's  three wouldn't it? I can see the breeders wanting an earlier return on their money but if science proves (caveating that I am not saying it does) it's better to wait then why 'waste' money training two year olds...
I can only go off my own experience here - horse in training =expensive, horse not in training, less expensive! By the way - my horse was 3 before he started training, and was still rubbish! 

And for the person who says horses never have a day off - again from personal experience  thats not true. for my local yard, when in training, the horses have Sunday off (if not running) and have a complete break of several weeks/months  once they've finished for their season.


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## Alec Swan (29 June 2015)

I think that it should be borne in mind that those 2 YOs which go in to training,  are generally the most precocious and forward of colts.  Are 2 YO fillies in training?  It would surprise me.

Optimissteeq,  and again,  those 2 YOs which are not considered to be worth the Trainer's fees are generally turned away to allow them to mature for another year,  as many do.

I do agree though,  that when once-upon-a-time we had horses which come over from Ireland as unbacked 5 and 6 YOs,  so they were horses which had full and useful lives before them,  and it does seem a shame to take the best from a youngster whilst it's still so young,  only to have it on the scrap-heap and at an age when it may well have been able to prove it's worth,  had there only been a little patience.

Racing is a serious business,  and expecting 'Owners' and 'Breeders' to be patient will never happen,  and that's because both the Owner and the Trainer give little thought,  generally,  to the long term,  and to the animal itself.  'Horses for Courses',  if you see what I mean!

Alec.


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## Optimissteeq (29 June 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			I think that it should be borne in mind that those 2 YOs which go in to training,  are generally the most precocious and forward of colts.  Are 2 YO fillies in training?  It would surprise me.

Optimissteeq,  and again,  those 2 YOs which are not considered to be worth the Trainer's fees are generally turned away to allow them to mature for another year,  as many do.

I do agree though,  that when once-upon-a-time we had horses which come over from Ireland as unbacked 5 and 6 YOs,  so they were horses which had full and useful lives before them,  and it does seem a shame to take the best from a youngster whilst it's still so young,  only to have it on the scrap-heap and at an age when it may well have been able to prove it's worth,  had there only been a little patience.

Racing is a serious business,  and expecting 'Owners' and 'Breeders' to be patient will never happen,  and that's because both the Owner and the Trainer give little thought,  generally,  to the long term,  and to the animal itself.  'Horses for Courses',  if you see what I mean!

Alec.
		
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Hi Alec,
not 100% convinced it's only the colts that go into training as 2 year olds, but I don't have the data to hand to be able to disagree. I am uncomfortable with training as early as two - I've heard many an argument from trainers to justify why it happens, but not actually seen any scientific evidence published to say it is beneficial - someone please feel free to enlighten me 
I am a small time owner/breeder and so I do my level best to guarantee the horses future post racing. The afore mentioned failed racer is now looking promising as my next eventer (should I be able to get a saddle that fits us both). But I am a in a minority I know.
Racing is indeed a serious business and it is changing for the better in my view. There will always be more room for improvement, but raising the age limit is probably not going to be a consideration for a long time (if ever).


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## Exploding Chestnuts (29 June 2015)

Blurr said:



			I'm on the planet where the owners of race horses don't want to pay to keep them for three years before finding out if they're any good.  That's why they race two year olds.
		
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That is not why an owner buys a two year old: he might have to fork out 100,000gns for an unraced two year old, so another 3K to keep it till it was three is not relevant.
Breeders are in the business of breeding and in order to keep their heads above water they have to sell them, the market demands young horses, so there are foal sales and yearling sales and breeze ups and two year old sales, but owners can buy older horses if they want to. 
Typically an owner puts the horse he buys in to training straight away, he does not take it home. 
The owners who have the facility to keep horses at home may have a few out of training, or youngstock, but the trainer trains horses on the understanding that when they are fit and are capable of giving a reasonable show on a racecourse they will  run in a race to suit their level..


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## Exploding Chestnuts (29 June 2015)

Colts and fillies may run at age two, and if in a mixed race the fillies generally get a weight allowance.
Backward types may be entered in a little race near the end of the season, you will often see the top trainers running a few well bred animals to give them a bit of experience, so they start their serious racing career age three. 
There is no point in running poor specimens if they have no future in racing, so there are some who are in trainng but never see a racecourse.


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## Piglet123 (29 June 2015)

I work in a racing yard and our horses get turned out everyday and have sundays off if not running. after a race they have 2/3 days off to chill out and when season has finished they have 2 months off!  Granted we are a small yard but I can tell you first hand, racehorses are a lot better cared for than people might think and if you have never worked in the industry how do you know?
If anyone has ever worked in a big livery yard or dressage yard like i have I bet you, like me, have horror stories to tell about things you may have seen?! I for one would never keep my horse on full livery unless i knew the yard VERY well, but i do know there are lovely yards out there as well as nasty ones.
Dressage horses standing in their boxes with side reins so tight they cant move their heads, always ridden in draw reins or in rolkur position - is that nice for a horse? Livery yards with no turn out at all - horses put on the walker for 20 mins a day and then in their stable for the rest of 23 and a half hours with very little hay and no people interaction.
People should not be so tunnel vision about racing and realise there will be conflict of opinion in every discipline. I dont completly agree with 2yr olds racing but then is making your horse jump massive fences at Grand Prix level or " dancing" in the dressage arena at GP level any better for them regardless of age! None of it is natural for a horse, we are the ones who have made horses into domesticated animals and made them move and do things which is not natural for them and then we go and judge each other for they way you may look after your horse, when we are all guilty for taking them as far away from natural as possibly ( granted I know some people keep them very naturally like we do with our retired horses ) Look at polo ponies if you want to begin another debate, some of them are horrifically treated!
It is very unfair to tarnish every racing yard with the same brush. In every single discipline in the world you will get people that treat their horses with respect and love that they deserve and people who shouldnt be allowed to have animals and treat them no better than machines. This is why if people want to help we should support the work of the BHS, Hereo's, Blue cross etc for the work they do helping these horses that cant speak for themselves.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (29 June 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			Racing is a serious business,  and expecting 'Owners' and 'Breeders' to be patient will never happen,  and that's because both the Owner and the Trainer give little thought,  generally,  to the long term,  and to the animal itself.  'Horses for Courses',  if you see what I mean!

Alec.
		
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Not true Alex.
Breeders are very patient, it takes four years of planning to get  return for your money paid from the purchase of a brood mare, and it costs at lot in between, not including the stallion fee, purchase of a stud farm and staff employment.
Many owners have an interest in breeding and will have good family lines, they may have invested many years in racing, Robert Ogden,  The Aga Khan, Oppenheimer, many others.
Trainers have to pass exams, put in a stack of money, find owners employ staff, etc etc, they are in it for the long term, yes they need to make it pay, but their primary motivation is to train horses to win races year in year out.
There are plenty of horses which run for many years and give their owners much pleasure. 
But no trainer would suggest owning a racehorse as a safe investment.


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## PaddyMonty (29 June 2015)

Faracat said:



			There is definitely seems to be a dichotomy in racing where the people that deal with the horses daily do care, but the system that they work within, isn't that horse friendly in many ways (eg starting them so young, lack of daily turnout, high incidence of gastric ulcers etc...).
		
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This in a nutshell which is why making a big thing about the horse coming first is just wrong. Return on investment comes first, the horse second.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (29 June 2015)

Its a pity that so many people have so little understanding of this industry which is one of the top earners in the UK. 
The UK is World Class in terms of race quality, of breeding knowledge, staff training, veterinary care, horse welfare etc etc. Top jockeys from around the world will ride here, horses are sent here from Europe, the Americas, and Australia to compete in our top races. It is the envy of the world, and all we get is people knocking it.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (29 June 2015)

PaddyMonty said:



			This in a nutshell which is why making a big thing about the horse coming first is just wrong. Return on investment comes first, the horse second.
		
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What is the return on investment for the average owner? [Its rhetoric]. 
The average one horse owner has sufficient disposable income to spend £20,000 per annum on his hobby.


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## Optimissteeq (29 June 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			What is the return on investment for the average owner? [Its rhetoric]. I know, but you don't!
		
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i would hazard a guess at the 'average' owner not getting an increase return on their 'investment'. many do it for the love of racing, not to make a profit.....Those that do are very lucky
And I did acknowledge the rhetoric bit....but answered anyway!


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## Exploding Chestnuts (29 June 2015)

Optimissteeq said:



			i would hazard a guess at the 'average' owner not getting an increase return on their 'investment'. many do it for the love of racing, not to make a profit.....Those that do are very lucky
And I did acknowledge the rhetoric bit....but answered anyway! 

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Correct. Though they could easily do better in France where prize money is more realistic.
I worked for a novice trainer, father very wealthy, she had twelve to eighteen horses in training, three staff full time plus two part time,, after three or four months we got a winner, cost of wages £18,000, winnings £1800.


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## PaddyMonty (29 June 2015)

ROI does not have to be in money terms. Prestige of owning horse racing. Using as a corporate day out or with group of friends etc. The excitement of seeing your horse run? There are many ways the owner is repaid for their investment but I would hazard a guess that their main concerns are that the horse is running in races and preferably getting placed.


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## Optimissteeq (29 June 2015)

PaddyMonty said:



			ROI does not have to be in money terms. Prestige of owning horse racing. Using as a corporate day out or with group of friends etc. The excitement of seeing your horse run? There are many ways the owner is repaid for their investment but I would hazard a guess that their main concerns are that the horse is running in races and preferably getting placed.
		
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Not to the detriment of the horse though - of course an owner wants to see their horse run and get placed, but given they are as you put it 'an investment' then the horses well being generally does come first (putting aside the training at 2 years debate).
I find this type of debate fascinating and frustrating in equal measures - clearly the perception of racing is far from favourable  but the racing industry feels that they have done much to improve, and yet it's not being recognised. Generalising a lot in this last statement I know!


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## Exploding Chestnuts (29 June 2015)

The perception of racing seems to be from a lot of ill informed people who have little interest in racing, little knowledge of racing and yet are telling those in racing to put their house in order.
This is not uncommon, when I tell people I go to the races they assume I go to bet, which is illogical, it is much easier to bet from my laptop. Most people in racing probably don't bet. The two interests are different, and though I only bet on horses, not any other sport, I never considered betting to be the reason for my interest in racehorses. My interest in racehorses started through riding out,  and then I found a new world in the racing community. It is a fascinating hobby/job/interest, it does not have to be about betting, and it s not about the abuse of horses to make owners happy to invest.


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## PaddyMonty (29 June 2015)

I think you need to put aside a little more than just racing at 2 for the statement to be true. Add in over feeding and the resulting deformities, lack of turnout etc. The horse is just a commodity to most (not all) owners. Whilst those looking after the horses may well have the horses best interests at heart they can only work within the confines of the needs of the industry.
I agree the industry has made significant improvements for which it should be commended but it still has a long way to go, given the poor starting point, before the horse comes first. With the amount of money involved in racing I doubt it will ever be the case.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (29 June 2015)

PaddyMonty said:



			I would hazard a guess that their main concerns are that the horse is running in races and preferably getting placed.
		
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Yes, that would be the idea, how is that different to the average horse owner whose main motivation is to gain pleasure from horse ownership, perhaps by riding or showing, eventing, driving, etc etc. 
Like novice horse owners who buy in to the sport initially knowing very little, novice racehorse owners gain knowledge as they go along, and this makes it more interesting for them. For most it will be all about the social side of racegoing, but some will pursue their interest further, very few will invest their capital and make it a business proposition, to many this would defeat the object.


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## marmalade76 (29 June 2015)

Clodagh said:



			Horses that are bred to do a job are always going to have compromises. I think I would rather be a racehorse than a show hoorse - rugged, stabled, tied down with side reins in the box and so on.
As long as they are offered the best possible care, within the confines of the industry expactations I don't have a problem. Yes, living out would be nice, and I am glad that some yards are going towards having turnout but compare a tb to a gypsy trotter - both are born to race, but the care is not comparable.
		
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Totally agree, and would say the same for most dressage and SJ yards, yet no one seems to complain about them. Also agree with Bonkers, whilst I don't agree with racing horses at two, at least they are ridden by light weight professionals and have the best care (veterinary, feeding, etc) money can buy, most are ridden in basic snaffles, no tying down or gadgets. 

At the yard my horse came from they ALL go out daily unless the weather or ground is really bad. I walked round a yard full of happy horses, not one was grumpy or pulled a face. I'd sooner put a horse in a racing yard than dressage/SJ/showing any day.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (29 June 2015)

PaddyMonty said:



			I think you need to put aside a little more than just racing at 2 for the statement to be true. Add in over feeding and the resulting deformities, lack of turnout etc. The horse is just a commodity to most (not all) owners. Whilst those looking after the horses may well have the horses best interests at heart they can only work within the confines of the needs of the industry.
I agree the industry has made significant improvements for which it should be commended but it still has a long way to go, given the poor starting point, before the horse comes first. With the amount of money involved in racing I doubt it will ever be the case.
		
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Really pointless continuing this discussion. You seem to have a very skewed view, I don't know where you get these ideas.


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## marmalade76 (29 June 2015)

equi said:



			I think anyone who has had a tb off a racing yard will agree they can have a lot of psychological issues (weaving, anger, cribbing, box walking etc) 

Horses are just not meant to live in a box.
		
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My horse (whom I picked up myself straight from a racing yard six months ago) has no such issues. He is very sweet and cuddly, has fabulous manners and happily hacks alone and in company. I can also say the same of my previous ex racehorse.


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## Clodagh (29 June 2015)

Piglet123 said:



			I work in a racing yard and our horses get turned out everyday and have sundays off if not running. after a race they have 2/3 days off to chill out and when season has finished they have 2 months off!  Granted we are a small yard but I can tell you first hand, racehorses are a lot better cared for than people might think and if you have never worked in the industry how do you know?
If anyone has ever worked in a big livery yard or dressage yard like i have I bet you, like me, have horror stories to tell about things you may have seen?! I for one would never keep my horse on full livery unless i knew the yard VERY well, but i do know there are lovely yards out there as well as nasty ones.
Dressage horses standing in their boxes with side reins so tight they cant move their heads, always ridden in draw reins or in rolkur position - is that nice for a horse? Livery yards with no turn out at all - horses put on the walker for 20 mins a day and then in their stable for the rest of 23 and a half hours with very little hay and no people interaction.
People should not be so tunnel vision about racing and realise there will be conflict of opinion in every discipline. I dont completly agree with 2yr olds racing but then is making your horse jump massive fences at Grand Prix level or " dancing" in the dressage arena at GP level any better for them regardless of age! None of it is natural for a horse, we are the ones who have made horses into domesticated animals and made them move and do things which is not natural for them and then we go and judge each other for they way you may look after your horse, when we are all guilty for taking them as far away from natural as possibly ( granted I know some people keep them very naturally like we do with our retired horses ) Look at polo ponies if you want to begin another debate, some of them are horrifically treated!
It is very unfair to tarnish every racing yard with the same brush. In every single discipline in the world you will get people that treat their horses with respect and love that they deserve and people who shouldnt be allowed to have animals and treat them no better than machines. This is why if people want to help we should support the work of the BHS, Hereo's, Blue cross etc for the work they do helping these horses that cant speak for themselves.
		
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What an excellent and knowledgable post. Well done!


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## Exploding Chestnuts (29 June 2015)

.deleted


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## Spilletta (29 June 2015)

I'm afraid I haven't really contributed to my own thread but it's because I'm not too good at writing a decent post when it matters.

I think racing gets too hard a time - hence the reason for seeing the positive message in "The Horse Comes First" and trying to help it along by posting the link. I'm not saying the industry is perfect but I think it's trying. I may be naive but I think it's a genuine, rather than a cynical, effort to show that racing people do care. Sure, money needs to be made, but doesn't it across most horsey enterprises from livery yards to riding schools to dressage, polo and showjumping yards? 

Piglet123's post hits the nail on the head for me, and I certainly couldn't have put it better myself!


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## Exploding Chestnuts (29 June 2015)

Spilletta said:



			I'm afraid I haven't really contributed to my own thread but it's because I'm not too good at writing a decent post when it matters.

I think racing gets too hard a time - hence the reason for seeing the positive message in "The Horse Comes First" and trying to help it along by posting the link. I'm not saying the industry is perfect but I think it's trying. I may be naive but I think it's a genuine, rather than a cynical, effort to show that racing people do care. Sure, money needs to be made, but doesn't it across most horsey enterprises from livery yards to riding schools to dressage, polo and showjumping yards? 

Piglet123's post hits the nail on the head for me, and I certainly couldn't have put it better myself!
		
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You are fine, whenever racing is mentioned there are always a flurry of ante racing posts, I agree with you, [obviously].


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## ester (29 June 2015)

Piglet123 said:



			I work in a racing yard and our horses get turned out everyday and have sundays off if not running. after a race they have 2/3 days off to chill out and when season has finished they have 2 months off!  Granted we are a small yard but I can tell you first hand, racehorses are a lot better cared for than people might think and if you have never worked in the industry how do you know?
If anyone has ever worked in a big livery yard or dressage yard like i have I bet you, like me, have horror stories to tell about things you may have seen?! I for one would never keep my horse on full livery unless i knew the yard VERY well, but i do know there are lovely yards out there as well as nasty ones.
Dressage horses standing in their boxes with side reins so tight they cant move their heads, always ridden in draw reins or in rolkur position - is that nice for a horse? Livery yards with no turn out at all - horses put on the walker for 20 mins a day and then in their stable for the rest of 23 and a half hours with very little hay and no people interaction.
People should not be so tunnel vision about racing and realise there will be conflict of opinion in every discipline. I dont completly agree with 2yr olds racing but then is making your horse jump massive fences at Grand Prix level or " dancing" in the dressage arena at GP level any better for them regardless of age! None of it is natural for a horse, we are the ones who have made horses into domesticated animals and made them move and do things which is not natural for them and then we go and judge each other for they way you may look after your horse, when we are all guilty for taking them as far away from natural as possibly ( granted I know some people keep them very naturally like we do with our retired horses ) Look at polo ponies if you want to begin another debate, some of them are horrifically treated!
It is very unfair to tarnish every racing yard with the same brush. In every single discipline in the world you will get people that treat their horses with respect and love that they deserve and people who shouldnt be allowed to have animals and treat them no better than machines. This is why if people want to help we should support the work of the BHS, Hereo's, Blue cross etc for the work they do helping these horses that cant speak for themselves.
		
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Out of interest is that flat or jump?


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## Spilletta (29 June 2015)

Thanks Bonkers2. I have sometimes wondered if H&H should add a racing forum but not sure if it would be that popular. I don't get the magazine often but racing coverage seems to have decreased quite a lot. Oh well!


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## EquiEquestrian556 (29 June 2015)

Agree with backing them later (& racing too), and more turnout. Faracat, just thought I'd mention this to you. We have a new kitten (our beautiful old lady was PTS in May) and she's currently trying to 'play' and touch your running cat, with great interest!


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## Meowy Catkin (29 June 2015)

Awww - you're going to have to post some photos of your kitten now!


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## fburton (30 June 2015)

Bonkers2, do you believe the racing industry is perfect and there is no room for improvement at all? I suspect you don't. Would you like it to change for the better? Maybe not, if that means potentially disruptive changes. However, I see "giving racing a hard time" (at least in areas where improvements could be made) as one of the main motivating forces for change. It doesn't mean the people who criticize are necessarily anti racing.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (30 June 2015)

fburton said:



			Bonkers2, do you believe the racing industry is perfect and there is no room for improvement at all? I suspect you don't. Would you like it to change for the better? Maybe not, if that means potentially disruptive changes. However, I see "giving racing a hard time" (at least in areas where improvements could be made) as one of the main motivating forces for change. It doesn't mean the people who criticize are necessarily anti racing.
		
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I don't believe the UK racing industry is perfect, no, but it has a high level control, if one wants to put it that way.  There are several organisations which run racing, allocate races, decide on race conditions, check stabling, staff, training, security etc etc, so that in general the horses are well looked after, raced and trained on the best facilities. Of course there will be a few debates, a few unneccessary interventions, and in some cases not enough intervention, but the UK is relatively free of drugs, and the horses get a better deal than in the US of A for example, where so many never see beyond a track, from their first race to their last, and where certain drugs are permitted. 
I am trying to be realistic, I don't hold such strong views about racing of two year olds as some on here, though it comes under the heading of "it would be nice if horses first ran at three", its not going to happen.
The whole racing industry is geared to breeding the winner of a Classic Race, of which there are few. 
There are a number of other major races which are targetted for both prestige and for prize money. Sponsors are found to provide a lot of prize money, though the owners have to pay a significant amount to enter the Classics.
Breeders may hope to find another Saddlers Wells / Northern Dancer, horses which changed the breeding lines for many generations, and reversed the trend of breeding from US stock http://www.ownerbreeder.co.uk/2011/05/tribute-to-sadlers-wells/

Part of the excitement and the preparation for the more important races means finding from the newly broken two year olds those which can run in good races at two and then at three, and then go to stud or to win more races. 
If for example the UK decided to ban two year old racing, it would just mean owners would send their horses to France, its as simple as that. They might also send them to countries who already have a shadowy history of horse preparation, and where drug testing may not be possible, so effectively you have given those who wish to cheat, eg by using steroids, a free pass.

It is not illegal to organise racing outside the BHA and the Jockey Club, it happens all over the UK, we know it as flapping, the courses are not as safe as the licenced tracks, it is an amateur sport, the horse are not drug tested, but as the only real money to be made is from betting, there can be a bit of skullduggery. Not everyone does it to make money of course. The horses are often ex racehorses, and they are all in handicaps, so they don't run two year olds, as they would not win due to the fact they are carrying essentially the same weight as a five year old.


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## fburton (30 June 2015)

You make some good and interesting points, Bonkers2, and I appreciate your taking the time to do that.


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## marmalade76 (30 June 2015)

Why are horses run at two? I can't believe a two year old could be faster than a three or four year old, is it that way just because that's the way it's always been or is there a particular reason why?  Surely if they changed the age for the big money races there wouldn't be a mass exodus to France?


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## ester (30 June 2015)

No but you can start comparing them to their peers at 2 I guess.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (30 June 2015)

Two year olds are raced against their peers, never against three year olds, however there is a big difference between a foal born 15th January and one born15 July, so that early foals will always be favoured particularly when they are racing as two year olds. 
The first big meeting of the year will see precocious types winning good races. This year it was Golden Horn [a three year old horse] who won the Derby [only 3 year old horses may enter], after puting on a brilliant show in his first race of 2015, but he had already had some racing experience as a two year old. It merits a whole page on wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Epsom_Derby
The story of how this horse came to win the Derby is fascinating to those who follow racing, involving big money, a top trainer, an owner who was persuaded against his better judgement to supplement [a £75,000 entry fee]. The trainer would not have been confident of winning this classic had he not had the horse in training and been able to run him at two.
The structure of the racing is to some extent set in stone. The classic races have been running for hundreds of years, and they set the best of the best against their peers, the winning horses will usually become stallions, like Frankel, where the moneys involved are huge,  the mares he covers are the best of the best in the hope that they will recoup the costs of breeding and the costs of owning.


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## marmalade76 (30 June 2015)

Yes, I know they are not raced against three year olds. So it's for experience and to sort the wheat from the chaff and the big money races at three so the colts can be packed off to stud as soon as they become stallions. Not  good enough reasons really, 'cause as far as I can tell all these reasons are money related but as you say, unlikely to change 'cause that's just the way it's always been.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (30 June 2015)

marmalade76 said:



			Why are horses run at two? I can't believe a two year old could be faster than a three or four year old, is it that way just because that's the way it's always been or is there a particular reason why?  Surely if they changed the age for the big money races there wouldn't be a mass exodus to France?
		
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The racing calendar follows a general format year after year, with the bigger races attracting the best quality entries but also the entry fees are bigger, and the race conditions may require certain qualifications, this is to ensure that in most races there is an element of competition, which is what makes it interesting. It is not possible to change the conditions of the Classics, they are set in stone, otherwise we can't compare horses year on year.
Other important races will also have regular sponsors who do not want conditions changed dramatically, so although the GN is not the same "gamble" it was forty years ago, and both the horses and the jockeys now need to qualify, the essence of running four miles over big fences remains.
There are good races for two year olds too, and the whole of the breeding industry, the sales preparation, the sales, the ownership and the race sponsorship revolves around producing two year olds ready to run in their second year.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (30 June 2015)

marmalade76 said:



			Yes, I know they are not raced against three year olds. So it's for experience and to sort the wheat from the chaff and the big money races at three so the colts can be packed off to stud as soon as they become stallions. Not  good enough reasons really, 'cause as far as I can tell all these reasons are money related but as you say, unlikely to change 'cause that's just the way it's always been.
		
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Not all colts are sent to stud as soon as they have won a few good races, but there is a big financial risk that the horse will be defeated, so his value will plummet, also there are risks inherent in racing which could lead to eg a leg breaking, and this is less likely to happen at stud than if the horse is in training. 
Frankel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankel_(horse) was raced after he had already proved himself superior, but we think that was due to the generosity of his owner Prince Khalid Abdulla, with respect to the ill health of the trainer, Sir Henry Cecil. Its not all about money , emotion takes a big hand in it: the  whole of the racing community was overjoyed to see Henry Cecil back where he belonged in the winners enclosure after several sad years in the wilderness. The cry went up "Three cheers for Sir Henry" "hip hip hooray" tears were shed when he died and when his widow was able to take up the reins and win some top races with his horses. There is a lot of emotion involved, people put their all in to the game, and not in the hope of making a million, it is their whole life, for better or worse, for richer or poorer.
The moneys involved at the top end are beyond even the most generous lottery winner, far more, and no one can just throw money into the pot year on year.


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## Alec Swan (30 June 2015)

Bonkers2,

a series of excellent posts.

Alec.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (30 June 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			Bonkers2,

a series of excellent posts.

Alec.
		
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I think you were the only one with the stamina to read them thru Alec.


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## imaginegenerous (30 June 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			Two year olds are raced against their peers, never against three year olds, however there is a big difference between a foal born 15th January and one born15 July, so that early foals will always be favoured particularly when they are racing as two year olds. 
The first big meeting of the year will see precocious types winning good races. This year it was Golden Horn [a three year old horse] who won the Derby [only 3 year old horses may enter], after puting on a brilliant show in his first race of 2015, but he had already had some racing experience as a two year old. It merits a whole page on wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Epsom_Derby
The story of how this horse came to win the Derby is fascinating to those who follow racing, involving big money, a top trainer, an owner who was persuaded against his better judgement to supplement [a £75,000 entry fee]. The trainer would not have been confident of winning this classic had he not had the horse in training and been able to run him at two.
The structure of the racing is to some extent set in stone. The classic races have been running for hundreds of years, and they set the best of the best against their peers, the winning horses will usually become stallions, like Frankel, where the moneys involved are huge,  the mares he covers are the best of the best in the hope that they will recoup the costs of breeding and the costs of owning.
		
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I think it's worth pointing out that some races are open to horses of 2 years and up (i.e. 2yo can race against older horses). It doesn't happen very often but one example is the Group 1 Nunthorpe Stakes which is a sprint open to 2yo and up. Kingsgate Native won as a 2yo against older horses a few years ago (incidentally he later retired to stud but proved infertile and was put back in training. He won a race earlier this year - I believe he is now 10 years old). The Group 1 Prix de l'Abbey in France, run on Arc day, is also open to 2yo as well as older horses. Superstar Leo finished 2nd as a 2yo in 2000. As a 2yo filly she would have received a weight allowance for both her age and sex. I think it's quite unusual to see 2yo pitched against older horses but it does happen on occasion, presumably the weight allowance can be very beneficial if the younger horse is good enough. I asked a vet several years ago (who had an involvement in treating racehorses) what his opinion on racing 2yos was. He felt that it depends very much on the individual horse and a good trainer will know when to ease up and take their time with those that are more backward. Going back to Kingsgate Native, he's raced 47 with races in every season since his 2yo year so he certainly seems to have thrived on racing. Interestingly, he still belongs to Chevely Park Stud who purchased him as a stallion prospect. Nice to see that they kept him despite his fertility issues. 

Going back to an earlier point raised about unraced fillies/those with poor race records being bred from, there will certainly be plenty going to the paddocks. At least two of the last Epsom Derby winners in the last 15 years have been bred from unraced mares. If they have a decent pedigree (sometimes if they don't) there's a good chance they'll be bred from, rightly or wrongly.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (30 June 2015)

imaginegenerous said:



			I think it's worth pointing out that some races are open to horses of 2 years and up (i.e. 2yo can race against older horses). It doesn't happen very often but one example is the Group 1 Nunthorpe Stakes which is a sprint open to 2yo and up. Kingsgate Native won as a 2yo against older horses a few years ago (incidentally he later retired to stud but proved infertile and was put back in training. He won a race earlier this year - I believe he is now 10 years old). The Group 1 Prix de l'Abbey in France, run on Arc day, is also open to 2yo as well as older horses. Superstar Leo finished 2nd as a 2yo in 2000. As a 2yo filly she would have received a weight allowance for both her age and sex. I think it's quite unusual to see 2yo pitched against older horses but it does happen on occasion, presumably the weight allowance can be very beneficial if the younger horse is good enough. I asked a vet several years ago (who had an involvement in treating racehorses) what his opinion on racing 2yos was. He felt that it depends very much on the individual horse and a good trainer will know when to ease up and take their time with those that are more backward. Going back to Kingsgate Native, he's raced 47 with races in every season since his 2yo year so he certainly seems to have thrived on racing. Interestingly, he still belongs to Chevely Park Stud who purchased him as a stallion prospect. Nice to see that they kept him despite his fertility issues. 

Going back to an earlier point raised about unraced fillies/those with poor race records being bred from, there will certainly be plenty going to the paddocks. At least two of the last Epsom Derby winners in the last 15 years have been bred from unraced mares. If they have a decent pedigree (sometimes if they don't) there's a good chance they'll be bred from, rightly or wrongly.
		
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Yes, of course there are various reasons why some mares are unraced yet are sent to stud, but when buying a brood mare nearly everyone will buy one which has run in, and run well in a decent race, this is because some trainers will not buy horses whose dams have not won. The better mares have *black type* ie have won or placed in the top echelons, and black type mares are the sort most breeders will buy over the run of the mill mare. Trainers will run fillies in Listed races to get *black type* as this enhances their value considerably.


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## Alec Swan (30 June 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			I think you were the only one with the stamina to read them thru Alec.
		
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Not at all,  it's to do with learning!  Most of us on this thread have an interest in racing,  but do we really understand the ethos and the protocol attached to the 'system' which is in place?  I certainly don't!

Interesting thoughts from others too,  whether they're in agreement,  or not.

Alec.


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## tristar (30 June 2015)

lammtarra won the Epsom derby on his first race of his 3yr old season, and only ran once as a two year old, and to me he looked just like a novice pony down at the start, just shows they can come out at three and clean up .

breeding from mares who are not raced  is a none subject as no one knows what they would have done if they had raced.

if I was buying a race brood mare for me it would be 50 50 the horse itself and its pedigree, if it hadn't raced and I liked it I`d still buy it, if it had won it would be the cream on the cake, but still would not mean she would produce class racehorses, as has been shown many times, perhaps there is a link between early racing as two year olds and failure as a brood mare.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (30 June 2015)

Quite an interesting page on Wikipedia on Lamtarra, who was not a sire of any particular note, with his stud fee plunging down to £2500 nfnf but nevertheless his bloodlines were of interest to many breeders. He was retired at his original owners stud.
I don't think there is a link between racing as a two year old and success as a broodmare, but to me a good mare should be a good size, sound,  good feet and a no conformational defects, but good solid breeding lines are essential in a mare.
When buyers go through a catalogue they have to select those to see from the breeding, and from those who they can afford.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (30 June 2015)

An article in the Racing Post highlights concerns about prizemoney at the grassroots ........... where SIXTY per cent of horses who ran in 2014 failed to recover a single month's training fees from prize-money.
http://www.racingpost.com/news/live.sd


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## Optimissteeq (1 July 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			An article in the Racing Post highlights concerns about prizemoney at the grassroots ........... where SIXTY per cent of horses who ran in 2014 failed to recover a single month's training fees from prize-money.
http://www.racingpost.com/news/live.sd

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Good article Bonkers - although no surprise to me. I was at the races yesterday chatting to some owners who were saying it is now getting too expensive to keep going (at grassroots level). I have seen a decline in the past couple of years in the number of owners keeping horses in training. I do wonder if the sport is becoming more 'elitist' as the costs will price the grassroots owner out of the market. 
This raises a lot more questions than answers but it does highlight that many (grassroots) owners are not in it to make money as a primary objective.
On your point re brood mares - I did smile a little at the last sentence as I can rarely get the one I want re breeding for the price I can afford. I've somewhat given up on that score and will no longer breed.  I know when I'm beaten!


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## tristar (1 July 2015)

i don`t see how size is a factor in a brood mare, either a racing mare or sport horse.

solid feet: while normally considered essential, the mare Bosra Sham had  dodgy feet yet performed brilliantly on the racecourse, just thinking about Bosra Sham and Lammtarra  gives me goose bumps, i would have loved to have owned them.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (1 July 2015)

I had a barn of mares which were going to Poland to set up a big stud, they were all the same stamp, a good frame and good legs, they had been selected by a top bloodstock agent, so I assumed he knew what to buy. Quite a few of the older mares which came back for covering showed wear and tear in their fetlocks, so from this I would want good feet and strong legs. 
 In racing, and in showing a good big un beats a good little un, they can cover more ground than smaller one, I don't mean oversize, just not undersized. As jockey weights are creeping up we probably need to have bigger bloodstock. Of course there are exceptions, Lady Rebecca was tiny, but she was  sold for 400gns at one stage, and no one wants to sell a filly for that sort of money.


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## tristar (2 July 2015)

Northern Dancer was 15.2hh,  
Hyperion was small `good things come in small packages`

a big horse may stride longer,  but racing is all about speed not size.


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## dominobrown (2 July 2015)

tristar said:



			Northern Dancer was 15.2hh,  
Hyperion was small `good things come in small packages`

a big horse may stride longer,  but racing is all about speed not size.
		
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I work for TB breeder and in bloodstock now. When looking to buy he (and the people who come to look at the horses from DBS etc) always like the big ones, and I think if you looked there would be a correlation between a horses height and the price it make in the ring.
However you are right, when asked what is the best broodmare, it would be the small 15.1hh dark bay mare who was by far the best racehorse out of all the mares!! 
I have my own theories about raced/ unraced broodmares. You would be surprised how many of them have been in training...


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## tristar (2 July 2015)

its common knowledge about a lot of buyers looking at the bigger ones, are they really more impressive? but maturity may be on their minds, confusing size with development, I don`t know! I`m not saying that, genuine talent for  picking a horse, especially a yearling, is a gift, how many people truly have that gift? 

I`ve open pondered about the unknown life of unraced mares and them being tried yet not racing, and also  pondered about if some of them were raced at three or four for the first time, instead of two how they would have worked out by having the advantage of more time to grow up before racing.

when you say they like to look at the big ones it makes it sound like they buying by the pound!

in other spheres of the horse world there is active prejudice towards small horses, at risk of being executed, my opinion is it`s a  cover for lack of being able to truly evaluate conformation and potential


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## dominobrown (2 July 2015)

Completely agree tristar, often the bigger horses have worse conformation and therefore don't stay sound, meanwhile the smaller ones are actually quite well put together and therefore sounder and have a better career, certainly in the case I mentioned above.

It is a breeders trick to get a well bred mare, send into training, and if she is useless/ not showing any inclination to brilliance, not risk racing her, as a bad record is worse than no record, not always the case... but common! 
We have a couple of 2 year old fillies that I broke and have been sent back to summer with me as they are not going to make 2 year old racehorses, there is no point running them if they physically and mentally not ready for it. One in particular that has come back- her dam had all her best form over the age of 4, and she is a tall leggy type that needs to time to fill out, also she has one hell of an attitude! It does help that they go to an honest trainer who will do what's best for the horse and not just keep it for the training fees when as a 2 year old said horse is better out in a field (terrorising everyone else!)


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## Clodagh (2 July 2015)

Bosra Sham should never have been bred from, she raced so lightly as her hooves bled after running. She was incredible, my Dad's horse used to lead in the winners of the Guineas races and we always went to watch him, what a mare she was, but a cripple.


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## tristar (2 July 2015)

domino, its great to hear horses having time to come into themselves more before racing, I love the sound of `the leggy one with attitude.`



Clodagh, wish I could have been there too.


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## Optimissteeq (2 July 2015)

Perhaps I'm in a minority, but I don't class 15.2 as small - not for flat anyway. Jump horses do tend to be bigger. I've known 3 horses that were 'small' and they stood at around 14.2 to 14.3, that is small in my view and as they went up the handicap, they struggled to carry the weight.
A friend of mine that breeds horses had a lovely little mare that he decided not to breed from because she was so little and barely made 14.3 with shoes on.
There will always be exceptions of course, but they are generally just that.

Not meaning to argue by the way - just musing at the various opinions on small


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## dominobrown (2 July 2015)

We breed mainly National hunt horses, but do have 3 or 4 flat broodmares. Some of NH horses are over 17hh, one standing near 17.2hh so next to those 15.2hh is tiny!

We have one broodmare that is very small- was going to be a racing pony but is very well bred so became a broodmare- never produced a decent horse though...


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## Alec Swan (2 July 2015)

I'm reliably informed by a breeder friend,  that there were only 630 NH bred foals which were registered with Weatherbys,  in 2014.  I wonder what that tells us.

Alec.


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## Optimissteeq (3 July 2015)

dominobrown said:



			We breed mainly National hunt horses, but do have 3 or 4 flat broodmares. Some of NH horses are over 17hh, one standing near 17.2hh so next to those 15.2hh is tiny!

We have one broodmare that is very small- was going to be a racing pony but is very well bred so became a broodmare- never produced a decent horse though...
		
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ah yes, can see how 15.2 would look tiny to a typical NH horse. I actually prefer NH to flat but seem to have somehow wandered off track a little into the flat world. Must find my way back...


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## Alec Swan (3 July 2015)

It would also be my view,  though I accept that it deviates from the theme of this thread,  that for blood to be maintained as an influence upon Event Horse Breeding,  so it should be the reliable NH producing Stallions which should be given greater consideration.  The 'stayers' and those that can jump are what we need,  I suspect.

Alec.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (3 July 2015)

I am not sure what you mean NH stallions and their offspring, most coverings are made to breed flat horses, Saddlers Wells was one of the best NH stallions, but his fees were such that breeders were looking for flat horses.
From conception to proving themselves over fences could easily take 5 or six years, and in the first few years of standing at stud most fees would be quite high, more than most NH breeders would want to pay.
There is no "category" NH or "flat" on the passport.


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## Racergirl (4 July 2015)

the first thing that I said when I met my current broodmare was "**** you're big" - luckily the people I bought her from know me or I would have sounded a right numpty!! At the time I had a peace loving sprint broodmare who was just over 15hh and was Sharing a field with a 14hh pony, so to suddenly be faced with just over 16 hands of leggy snorting mare was quite a shock &#128516; 

I think there's a definite divide in stallions, although you wouldn't be able to say that a particular stallion wouldn't produce for one code, a lot will depend on the mares he gets sent and I think that ends up being the deciding factor.depending on the mare, Id happily send a flat mare to some of the stallions in the TBA elite mares book (though it's not out of the question!) and my mostly NH mare could easily go to a flat stallion - it's just all about research. 
Of course it's as much about luck, no matter how well you think you've looked into it !!!


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## Michen (4 July 2015)

I think my view on the racing world has been tainted from my experience with Torres but if I ever take another horse off the track (and it would have to be something really special) it will not be a flat racer.

When I went to see T he had been in his box for 10 days. 10 solid days without being exercised, led out, turned out (as he had bled and therefore officially retired). I will never forget the sad little horse that arrived off the lorry and, when turned out, stood in the middle of the field staring into space for hours. You could be forgiven for thinking he had tetanus. 

I know not all horses come out of racing like this, but he was a real mess. Physically and emotionally.


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## Horsetruth (10 July 2015)

Yes well said that Piglet. And there are many dressage horses that never get turned out. In countries with extreme climayes the horses don't get turned out either for whole spans of time because of the weather.  Our show jumpers in Canada and Switzerland were in their barns all winter and on limited if any turn out during the summer because there was not enough room.


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## Nudibranch (12 July 2015)

Michen I have a former (flat) racer - the third off the track horse I have owned - who also has a few issues. He won 11 races but then suffered a suspensory injury and went to rehab livery. He was abandoned there by his owner (and presumably the trainer played no further part). He now lives out and seems to suit it but is on something of a last chance as he ran through a fence while out, for no apparent reason, and sustained £2K worth of injuries. It may have just been a freak accident but there may be underlying behavioural issues which have not fully surfaced yet. He did indeed have ulcers on arrival, and if stabled will box walk, crib and weave. None of the three I owned were entirely issue free. 

I am not using these examples to either defend or attack the industry; I am just stating what I have seen. I have no opinion either way quite honestly, however I do have experience of dealing with horses who have gone through the system as opposed to being still within it.


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## Alec Swan (12 July 2015)

Horsetruth said:



			Yes well said that Piglet. And there are many dressage horses that never get turned out. In countries with extreme climayes the horses don't get turned out either for whole spans of time because of the weather.  Our show jumpers in Canada and Switzerland were in their barns all winter and on limited if any turn out during the summer because there was not enough room.
		
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Though not so common these days,  those horses which are Army mounts and those in private ownership in the centre of London,  are or mostly were stalled and none that I saw ever came to any harm.  Providing that they have adequate care and they're out on exercise or working,  then they very soon settle to the routine and are none the worse for it!

Alec.


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## ycbm (12 July 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			Though not so common these days,  those horses which are Army mounts and those in private ownership in the centre of London,  are or mostly were stalled and none that I saw ever came to any harm.  Providing that they have adequate care and they're out on exercise or working,  then they very soon settle to the routine and are none the worse for it!

Alec.
		
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I think that some time in the future we may recognise that many of those horses are simply shut down and resigned to their inescapable fate, and that many are far from happy.


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## glenruby (13 July 2015)

Alec - I would guess it tells you that the market for GB bred NH horses is poor - they are being bred in Ireland. Secondly, the number of decent NH stallions standing in the UK is abysmal - Dunadin, Midnight Legend and Kayf Tara are among the most successful/popular. As a result many British breeders are sending their mares to Ireland for covering - which will result in many  foals belonging to UK breeders being foaled down in Ireland.

Clodagh - just as well she hasn't contributed much to the gene pool, as she was (I believe) euthanised in 2006 after more foot related problems. It appears she only had 2 fillies of which only one has had offspring go through the ring.


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## Clodagh (13 July 2015)

glenruby said:



			Clodagh - just as well she hasn't contributed much to the gene pool, as she was (I believe) euthanised in 2006 after more foot related problems. It appears she only had 2 fillies of which only one has had offspring go through the ring.
		
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Thank you for that, very interesting.


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## tristar (14 July 2015)

Bosra Sham had the same genes as thousands of racehorses that being bred from today, she was bred from top class stallion lines, she was just one mare.

she was a  champion racehorse, she did this in spite of her feet, she won nearly £600.000.

her trainer the late Henry Cecil said,` she was the best I ever trained, even better than  the colts`  

run free beautiful girl


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## marmalade76 (15 July 2015)

SpringArising said:



			And provide more turnout. That's my one major issue with the industry.
		
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Today I visited the NH yard my horse came from with a friend who's looking to rehome an ex racehorse after a two or three year break from owning (after riding mine she just had to have one of her own!) Here are the mares out on their summer hols, all happy, chilled and beautifully behaved as we fussed them and chatted about them for a good half hour. 

The mare my friend has agreed to take has been turned away here for the last twelve months waiting for the right home to come along, nothing wrong with her, no injuries, just wasn't good enough as a racehorse.


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## Alec Swan (15 July 2015)

Lovely pics marmalade.  We no longer have a herd of mares,  but when we did,  the best times were always in the evenings,  when going to them and just spending time,  watching and being with them.  I envy you! 

Alec.


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## Lanky Loll (15 July 2015)

glenruby said:



			Alec - I would guess it tells you that the market for GB bred NH horses is poor - they are being bred in Ireland. Secondly, the number of decent NH stallions standing in the UK is abysmal - Dunadin, Midnight Legend and Kayf Tara are among the most successful/popular. As a result many British breeders are sending their mares to Ireland for covering - which will result in many  foals belonging to UK breeders being foaled down in Ireland.
		
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Worth noting that French bred NH horses are "fashionable" at the moment.  We've somehow ended up with 2.
The mare is a big lass (17hh) by Passing Sale who has US lines but she is very French on her dam's side one grand-dam is actually "arab complement" so she's closer to the arab than a lot of the UK bred TBs - although that hasn't given her good feet x-(
The gelding is a lot smaller with a mixture of US/French lines and a lot of (to me) new blood.


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## Elf On A Shelf (15 July 2015)

Lanky Loll said:



			Worth noting that French bred NH horses are "fashionable" at the moment.  We've somehow ended up with 2.
The mare is a big lass (17hh) by Passing Sale who has US lines but she is very French on her dam's side one grand-dam is actually "arab complement" so she's closer to the arab than a lot of the UK bred TBs - although that hasn't given her good feet x-(
The gelding is a lot smaller with a mixture of US/French lines and a lot of (to me) new blood.
		
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I have a BIG French horse. All 17.2hh of him. Currently standing on box rest - again! He is all French bred and goes back quite quickly to Selle Francais on the mothers side. The father French bred TB for 3 generations before some English slips in.

Not forgetting Kauto Star who was French too.


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## marmalade76 (16 July 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			Lovely pics marmalade.  We no longer have a herd of mares,  but when we did,  the best times were always in the evenings,  when going to them and just spending time,  watching and being with them.  I envy you! 

Alec.
		
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Thank you


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## Spilletta (16 July 2015)

Marmalade, my idea of horsey heaven - a field of bay TB mares!

I sometimes wonder why racing gets picked out a lot for lack of turnout. I'm not saying there aren't bad examples out there, but of the racing stables I know of, there is turnout - better turnout than for many 'normal' horses I've seen.

It's almost as if whatever the industry does to improve things, it'll never be good enough. I'm not linked in any way to "The Horse Comes First" (in case anyone was wondering since I posted the original link). I'm just a keen supporter: maybe non-supporters will think I'm a naïve optimist for thinking the horse does, indeed, come first. I ride out a bit - not my day job, so obviously only a small snapshot just from my experience - and the horses have been some of the most well-adjusted, happy horses I've met even if they're not currently on turnout.


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## Lanky Loll (16 July 2015)

EKW said:



			Not forgetting Kauto Star who was French too.
		
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and Long Run


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## Dobiegirl (16 July 2015)

French breds have been on the NH racing scene for a long time now, Martin Pipe was the first I believe to see their potential and use them.


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## marmalade76 (17 July 2015)

Spilletta said:



			Marmalade, my idea of horsey heaven - a field of bay TB mares!

I sometimes wonder why racing gets picked out a lot for lack of turnout. I'm not saying there aren't bad examples out there, but of the racing stables I know of, there is turnout - better turnout than for many 'normal' horses I've seen.
		
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Indeed, and I very much doubt you'd see this on a dressage or SJ yard.


Friend's new horse will be delivered tomorrow, she's so excited! She the one in the centre, doesn't she look well?!







I was told the leaner ones have recently been brought over from France.

This is mine, picked him up back in January.


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## Alec Swan (17 July 2015)

The very same concerns and comments which surround the Race Horse can also be levelled at the Greyhound.  Both are bred for one purpose,  and whilst in training,  generally,  their needs are attended too.  The problem often arises when their racing days are over,  and often at a young age,  considering their general lifespan,  and to subject a horse or a dog to a life for which it wasn't bred,  intended,  schooled or used,  must have us wondering.

Of course there are those who are competent and who have the knowledge and the experience which will enable them to find and provide a secondary life for the occasional horse or dog,  but I see so many that languish.  Brood mares which live as a herd seem to be quite content with their lot,  slopping about being pregnant and then rearing foals,  and there will be those as I've said,  who will come in to work of a different nature when in the hands of the competent owner or rider,  but there are many former Race Horses and Racing Greyhounds too which are subjected to the misery of retirement.  Too many I think.

Alec.


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## ester (17 July 2015)

Spilletta said:



			Marmalade, my idea of horsey heaven - a field of bay TB mares!

I sometimes wonder why racing gets picked out a lot for lack of turnout. I'm not saying there aren't bad examples out there, but of the racing stables I know of, there is turnout - better turnout than for many 'normal' horses I've seen.
		
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Flat or NH out of interest?


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## Alec Swan (17 July 2015)

Thinking about our responsibilities,  and after further thought,  the answer quite clearly and the responsibility for horses and dogs too,  which have come out of training lays with the Owner and if they'll listen to the Trainer's advice,  then them too.  Specifically with horses,  the Trainer and the Staff who know the horse best,  will be very well aware of the animal's temperament and its likely future,  either in competition,  or even as a happy-hacker.

It's the Owners who need to be pressed in to issuing clear instructions to the Trainers,  or those who have charge of their horses,  that their property,  if it can't be placed where it will have a quality of life,  should be humanely disposed of.  There are still too many,  who rather than face the disposal costs,  will accept the £500 from the sale of the horse,  without giving the animal a second thought.

The question of Racing Welfare,  of any animal,  falls squarely upon the shoulders of the Owners,  all of them.

Alec.


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## marmalade76 (17 July 2015)

The trainer takes charge of this in the yard my horse came from, probably not for all the horses, but obviously offers this to her owners. Mine was listed as belonging to her when I took him on.


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## Spilletta (19 July 2015)

ester said:



			Flat or NH out of interest?
		
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Both, although they are probably relatively small compared with yards in Newmarket or Lambourne, for example. So only a very small snapshot.


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## ester (19 July 2015)

Thanks, in my head NH horses tend to get turned out but I really haven't across many flat yards to know!


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## lizziebell (19 July 2015)

I'm not anti-racing and enjoy a day at the races. I do believe that for the majority of people working directly with racehorses, the horses welfare comes first.

I do however, as others have posted, dislike seeing 2 year olds race. At a meet several weeks ago, the 2 year olds I watched close up in the paddock prior to racing didn't look any more mentally or even physically more mature than my 2 year old Warmblood.

I also have concerns over the use of foster mares, specifically the outcome of their birth foals. There are so many indiscriminately bred horses in this country already, without fuelling this with foals born purely to provide foster mares to the racing industry.


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## marmalade76 (19 July 2015)

I think Measfen (sp?) has a couple of the foster mare foals.


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## pip6 (20 July 2015)

I think the thing that really bothers me about 2yr olds racing, is that they've been backed as yearlings and put into work. When you see them as 2 year olds (ie babies) on the racecourse, they lost all pretence of a 'childhood' for want of a better description when they had time to grow as a young horse should, as a yearling. People are very ready to attack travellers for breaking such young horses and driving them, well this is no better to me. The youngsters we bred are given time to be youngsters. Let's not forget that a horse of ANY breed is no skeletally mature until 7 years old. Hot housing them does not change this.


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## Elf On A Shelf (20 July 2015)

At least the fostermares have a job. At some studs the foals with only the best conformation and chance of a decent life andcareer go on. A lot are culles atweaning. As unpleasant as that may be to most at least thestud farms are taking responsibility of them.


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## Optimissteeq (20 July 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			Thinking about our responsibilities,  and after further thought,  the answer quite clearly and the responsibility for horses and dogs too,  which have come out of training lays with the Owner and if they'll listen to the Trainer's advice,  then them too.  Specifically with horses,  the Trainer and the Staff who know the horse best,  will be very well aware of the animal's temperament and its likely future,  either in competition,  or even as a happy-hacker.

It's the Owners who need to be pressed in to issuing clear instructions to the Trainers,  or those who have charge of their horses,  that their property,  if it can't be placed where it will have a quality of life,  should be humanely disposed of.  There are still too many,  who rather than face the disposal costs,  will accept the £500 from the sale of the horse,  without giving the animal a second thought.

The question of Racing Welfare,  of any animal,  falls squarely upon the shoulders of the Owners,  all of them.

Alec.
		
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Hmmm, i don't think it's that easy though Alec. I personally take responsibility but, as discussed on here multiple times, you can never guarantee a horses future once it has been sold on. If the trainer were to advise the horse gets re-homed, there's nothing to say that the home is suitable, or that the horse will stay with that home.
On the front of humanely destroying those that are not suitable to be re-homed, how will this be viewed by Joe Public? given the racing industry already receives a large amount of negative publicity/perception, I can't imagine this will help at all - whether it's the right thing to do or not. it would have to be managed very sensitively, if it were to become common practice. 
i'm not saying I don't agree by the way - I'm just offering a perspective as an owner that it's not that easy from what I've seen


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## Exploding Chestnuts (20 July 2015)

Optimissteeq said:



			Hmmm, i don't think it's that easy though Alec. I personally take responsibility but, as discussed on here multiple times, you can never guarantee a horses future once it has been sold on. If the trainer were to advise the horse gets re-homed, there's nothing to say that the home is suitable, or that the horse will stay with that home.
On the front of humanely destroying those that are not suitable to be re-homed, how will this be viewed by Joe Public? given the racing industry already receives a large amount of negative publicity/perception, I can't imagine this will help at all - whether it's the right thing to do or not. it would have to be managed very sensitively, if it were to become common practice. 
i'm not saying I don't agree by the way - I'm just offering a perspective as an owner that it's not that easy from what I've seen
		
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You are quite right, its not clear cut, and if the owner was to say "I will buy it and if it does not make the grade I will cull it. The owner would be immediately castigated.
This is a hobby for most owners, they don't assume responsibility for the horse from birth to death, and you have to realise that most horse owners do not this either.
We can look at greyhound racing and say ...... they breed in the hope of a winner and the rest will be shot, to some members of the public there will be no difference.


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## Alec Swan (20 July 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			&#8230;&#8230;..
This is a hobby for most owners, they don't assume rseponsibility for the horse from birth to death, and you have to realise that most horse owners do not so this either.
		
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Really?  When I take on a horse,  I assume a responsibility.  It's a moral obligation,  and one of the very few 'one rule fits all' arguments that can be applied.  There remain too many,  far too many who set their responsibilities on one side,  when it suits them.  And then,  many have the front to shed tears! 

The general public,  and their thoughts?  Really?  Our responsibilities take precedence over public opinion.

Alec.


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## Optimissteeq (20 July 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			Really?  When I take on a horse,  I assume a responsibility.  It's a moral obligation,  and one of the very few 'one rule fits all' arguments that can be applied.  There remain too many,  far too many who set their responsibilities on one side,  when it suits them.  And then,  many have the front to shed tears! 

The general public,  and their thoughts?  Really?  Our responsibilities take precedence over public opinion.

Alec.
		
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Not arguing about our responsibilities BUT public opinion does matter and does influence the racing industry - we've seen many changes come about due to public opinion. I really don't think it's as clear cut as you imply.
Should the public get the feeling that racehorses are being culled because they are not any good then I feel the backlash would be great and would add more weight to a call for banning it.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (21 July 2015)

Most horses are bought and sold at some stage in their life, I don't think owners are necessarily evading their responsibilities.  There is no moral obligation to keep an animal forever,  in many cases it would not be desirable for either the animal or the owner.


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## Dobiegirl (26 July 2015)

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Ed-Dunlop-Racing/400426843304961



I thought you may be interested in seeing this, scroll down for Red Cadeaux having a bit of down time.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (26 July 2015)

Dobiegirl said:



https://www.facebook.com/pages/Ed-Dunlop-Racing/400426843304961



I thought you may be interested in seeing this, scroll down for Red Cadeaux having a bit of down time.
		
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Its a bit small! I would rather see them out on an acre of grass where they can have a proper leg stretch. We had all our horses out all day in decent weather, as long as they are used to it they don't go berserk.
We had a sand paddock the size of this to let them roll after work.


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## Dobiegirl (26 July 2015)

Yes it is a bit small I agree, but we are talking a fit racehorse here and a very valuable one at that, a lot of these horses are entire as well which brings fresh challenges.


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