# He's only gone and done it! :)  Jonty Evans has ART!



## gunnergundog (9 August 2017)

He's done it!  Official statement at 1200.  Bloody fantastic......an awful lot of work and long hours from a lot of people.  I know a couple of people on here contributed, so a big thank you to those and if you are going to Blenheim be ready for the party to end all parties.


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## BigBear (9 August 2017)

Such a shame it was conducted like this. Greed, gluttony and exploitation of the general public.


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## Auslander (9 August 2017)

BigBear said:



			Such a shame it was conducted like this. Greed, gluttony and exploitation of the general public.
		
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Go boil your head. No-one was forced to contribute


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## _EVS_ (9 August 2017)

Auslander said:



			Go boil your head. No-one was forced to contribute
		
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Hear Hear!


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## AFB (9 August 2017)

BigBear said:



			Such a shame it was conducted like this. Greed, gluttony and exploitation of the general public.
		
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Well I think it's fantastic that's he's managed to keep him and not been sold off to America. I hope you never need help with anything.


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## ester (9 August 2017)

I still find it a bit nuts, and wonder who will be the next.


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## paddi22 (9 August 2017)

BigBear said:



			Such a shame it was conducted like this. Greed, gluttony and exploitation of the general public.
		
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wow! not a big believer in personal choice eh? I actually think it showed a lack of greed on the owners part to accept that amount for a horse that is worth a massive amount more on the open market. 

Absolutely delighted he gets to keep the horse. He is the loveliest man to meet and he absolutely adores that horse.  He has brought on and developed that horse from the bginning and it's lovely to see it not being sold off to a millionaire with a big chequebook, as so many horses are. It was heartbreaking to see Greg Brodrick lose the ride on Going Global. 

I don't get the uproar about it - if you think its a horrible idea then it's very simple to just ignore it.

I'm baffled were the gluttony comes in??


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## Fun Times (9 August 2017)

Yeah everyone has a choice as to whether or not to contribute, granted. I just hate to see people having their heart-strings pulled and being emotionally manipulated. I remain to be convinced it was anything other than a money making scam and, like any scam, I have little admiration for the perpetrators.  Sorry folks, if you have contributed and are happy that's great but you will struggle to convince me it wad genuine.


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## ihatework (9 August 2017)

BigBear said:



			Such a shame it was conducted like this. Greed, gluttony and exploitation of the general public.
		
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Whoa!! I did not donate and wasn't really supportive of the crowd funding but really?!
No one has been exploited, I'm sure everyone who donated did so willingly and with no expectations of anything other than what was written on the tin I.e Jonty keeps Art.

I'm pleased for him and hope the partnership goes on to be very successful


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## Lexi_ (9 August 2017)

I'm absolutely delighted for him! I donated quite happily and feel a nice warm glow that my tiny (in the grand scheme of things) contribution has helped keep such a lovely partnership together. If you don't like it, don't concern yourself with it. That's how crowdfunding works.


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## ester (9 August 2017)

Pretty sure people are still allowed to have opinions about crowdfunding, plenty of conversations about gofundme's for vets fees, for other people to purchase horses etc.


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## Goldenstar (9 August 2017)

If those who contributed are happy that's great but it's not something I would have considered .
I am however delighted for the horse he gets to stay with people he trusts .


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## Lexi_ (9 August 2017)

Fun Times said:



			Yeah everyone has a choice as to whether or not to contribute, granted. I just hate to see people having their heart-strings pulled and being emotionally manipulated. I remain to be convinced it was anything other than a money making scam and, like any scam, I have little admiration for the perpetrators.  Sorry folks, if you have contributed and are happy that's great but you will struggle to convince me it wad genuine.
		
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I'm intrigued as to who you think is scamming? It seemed straightforward to me - if he could crowdfund the purchase price then the money was going to the current owner who wanted to sell. If he didn't reach the target then the donations would be returned.


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## MuddyMonster (9 August 2017)

Lexi_ said:



			I'm intrigued as to who you think is scamming? It seemed straightforward to me - if he could crowdfund the purchase price then the money was going to the current owner who wanted to sell. If he didn't reach the target then the donations would be returned.
		
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I think it's to do with the question was there any proof the horse was for sale? Theoritically, the owner could now be much richer when there was never any intention of the horse to ever leave his stable.


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## FfionWinnie (9 August 2017)

I'd love if people donated an equal amount to say Willberry Wonderpony since that would really be life changing for those who need and deserve it most.


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## Fun Times (9 August 2017)

Lexi_ said:



			I'm intrigued as to who you think is scamming? It seemed straightforward to me - if he could crowdfund the purchase price then the money was going to the current owner who wanted to sell. If he didn't reach the target then the donations would be returned.
		
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O.k here is my cynical take on it. There was no intention to really sell the horse. However, the owner would like to receive the perceived value of the horse without actually having to sell it or Jonty lose the ride. Rather than take out a loan or raise proper bank finance which has to be repaid in order for Jonty to acquire the horse, the public is asked to do so. This form of funding does not have to be repaid. So the owner gets a whack load of money, there is no debt to be repaid and the horse stays put. Am I the only one that sees it this way? Yes, there was a promise that if the (in my view, arbitrarily set target) was not reached, all funds would be returned. Happily for Jonty, several large anonymous donations were (allegedly) made outside the crowdfunding forum to ensure the total was met. 
Finally, Horse and Hound itself ran an article to the effect that if the total was not reached by the specified date, Jonty (whilst having been selected to.ride for the Irish team) would not be able to compete - seriously????


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## ester (9 August 2017)

I found the specified date/countdown thing odd/orchestrated to push. Part of me understands they had to put something on it, the other part wonders whether the owner really would have said no had they been 15k short at that point.


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## ester (9 August 2017)

I find the 100k donation interesting, I'm surprised that anyone putting that much in does not want an official share.


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## Fun Times (9 August 2017)

ester said:



			I found the specified date/countdown thing odd/orchestrated to push. Part of me understands they had to put something on it, the other part wonders whether the owner really would have said no had they been 15k short at that point.
		
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I think you and I share similar misgivings Ester. I really just hope this doesn't start a trend of professional riders doing this.


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## eventer and proud (9 August 2017)

Lexi_ said:



			I'm absolutely delighted for him! I donated quite happily and feel a nice warm glow that my tiny (in the grand scheme of things) contribution has helped keep such a lovely partnership together. If you don't like it, don't concern yourself with it. That's how crowdfunding works.
		
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Make sure you tell him not to pull out the tail hairs you own&#128514;&#128514; over the moon for him.


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## milliepops (9 August 2017)

FfionWinnie said:



			I'd love if people donated an equal amount to say Willberry Wonderpony since that would really be life changing for those who need and deserve it most.
		
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This was how I squared it with myself. I gave a small amount to the fund for Art having so enjoyed watching them at several major competitions, I reckoned that was worth a few quid... next job was to send a bit to Willberry so it didn't seem so frivolous.


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## Bernster (9 August 2017)

Me too, I know it could have been a scam but I didn't see it as that and felt it was genuine.  And I was happy to donate a tiny bit to help them along the way for what I perceived was a fair cause. Didn't actually think they would do it and I really hope the horse has a long and happy career.


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## Antw23uk (9 August 2017)

How much!!!!!!!!! For a horse!!!!!!!


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## ycbm (9 August 2017)

ester said:



			I found the specified date/countdown thing odd/orchestrated to push. Part of me understands they had to put something on it, the other part wonders whether the owner really would have said no had they been 15k short at that point.
		
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This is a standard direct marketing (junk mail!) technique. More people respond if you put a date, and even more if you put a short date.

If you allow people time to think and 'do it later', they either forget or go off the idea.

The people who put the campaign together knew exactly what they were doing. .


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## Hullabaloo (9 August 2017)

Bernster said:



			Me too, I know it could have been a scam but I didn't see it as that and felt it was genuine.  And I was happy to donate a tiny bit to help them along the way for what I perceived was a fair cause. Didn't actually think they would do it and I really hope the horse has a long and happy career.
		
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Totally agree.

This isn't the sort of thing I would normally support but I saw Jonty and Art at Badminton and was so impressed with their partnership.

It's easy to be cynical but sometimes it warms the heart to show a little faith in people.


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## Casey76 (9 August 2017)

Who... what? huh?


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## Mule (9 August 2017)

I'm glad he gets to keep the horse. Crowd funding to buy a horse for a professional athlete is off the wall though.


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## ester (9 August 2017)

ycbm said:



			This is a standard direct marketing (junk mail!) technique. More people respond if you put a date, and even more if you put a short date.

If you allow people time to think and 'do it later', they either forget or go off the idea.

The people who put the campaign together knew exactly what they were doing. .
		
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countdown timers on website offers are a biggy too.


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## Rowreach (9 August 2017)

Not something I would have contributed to for a lot of reasons, but iirc when Valegro was being "sold", there were a number of people on here keen for us all to donate a few quid to buy him for CH/CD.

All a bit weird, but as GS says, at least the horse will stay with the people he knows.


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## DirectorFury (9 August 2017)

From abbijay on the original thread: 


abbijay said:



			Wow, this https://daks2k3a4ib2z.cloudfront.ne...fb57/59663c1afe56633eb897d38b_artbrochure.pdf makes interesting reading, *it's his sales brochure and even talks about selling supplementary shares to the general public "One section of the investment to come from  The Friends of Art... we anticipate the uptake of this section of shares in the Peoples Horse to be significant. This section of the ownership will not obviously have significant ownership perks of the other shareholders... to create a family feeling that will ensure uptake and help possibly to cover running costs on annual basis going forwards."*
Suddenly it is revealing much more business thought and planning to tap into the naivety of the public over a genuine dash to find funds to keep the horse.
		
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Bolding is mine.

There's also a section on there (page 3) that talks about "the creation of the brand that is "Art"". Some very savvy marketing has gone on!


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## ester (9 August 2017)

But I still find that confusing as that was never stated on the website, only if you clicked on the brochure link hidden at the bottom of the page. 

So does that include people who have 'donated' or not? Is what has happened Friends of Art? will they be considered to have an - albeit small- share, and what about the mention of running costs?


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## ScottyJ (9 August 2017)

Fun Times said:



			Rather than take out a loan or raise proper bank finance which has to be repaid in order for Jonty to acquire the horse, the public is asked to do so. This form of funding does not have to be repaid. So the owner gets a whack load of money, there is no debt to be repaid and the horse stays put. Am I the only one that sees it this way?
		
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This is all I can see in this situation too. Right from the very beginning it didn't feel right to me.


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## paddi22 (9 August 2017)

But there is honestly no way an event rider could go to a bank and get a loan for half a million for a horse. It just wouldn't happen.  No bank would go for it


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## ihatework (9 August 2017)

ester said:



			But I still find that confusing as that was never stated on the website, only if you clicked on the brochure link hidden at the bottom of the page. 

So does that include people who have 'donated' or not? Is what has happened Friends of Art? will they be considered to have an - albeit small- share, and what about the mention of running costs?
		
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The way I read it is that you will have what is essentially a syndicate with X named individuals (who would be those who offered up a significant contribution) and then an extra shareholder that would be named along the lines of 'friends of art'.

I might be wrong on that.

Hopefully Jonty will be in a position to disclose how this will work once the deal is done. It would be nice to see the transparency for those that did donate.


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## ester (9 August 2017)

Yes that would certainly make sense, it just seems odd that there was no mention of that on the website really, or making a thing of that.


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## Velcrobum (9 August 2017)

ester said:



			I found the specified date/countdown thing odd/orchestrated to push. Part of me understands they had to put something on it, the other part wonders whether the owner really would have said no had they been 15k short at that point.
		
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The deadline was the latest date that the horse could go to the europeans. 

I happen to know the owner and the horse but not Jonty. The owner has remained very loyal to Jonty and could have sold abroad for considerably more.


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## Lanky Loll (9 August 2017)

paddi22 said:



			But there is honestly no way an event rider could go to a bank and get a loan for half a million for a horse. It just wouldn't happen.  No bank would go for it
		
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But a more savvy business person that had ridden the horse since it was 5yo would have had a contract in place or even bought shares in it then to ensure that he kept the ride in the future.  
I'm happy as others have said that the horse is staying in a home where he is obviously adored but people are paying for Jonty's lack of foresight sadly.


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## ester (9 August 2017)

Oh I am under no illusion that he could have been sold for more, thank you for the clarification on the date, I had forgotten that, was it that he had to be under the same ownership? Or just confirmed to be listed and they wouldn't list him until it was sorted?


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## paddi22 (9 August 2017)

Lanky Loll said:



			But a more savvy business person that had ridden the horse since it was 5yo would have had a contract in place or even bought shares in it then to ensure that he kept the ride in the future.  
I'm happy as others have said that the horse is staying in a home where he is obviously adored but people are paying for Jonty's lack of foresight sadly.
		
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I don't think he could have had that foresight though. The horses value would probably trebled after his big result last year.  I don't know of any rider that would have a contract with an owner that allows them to keep the horse without paying the value of it? How would that even work?  As for shares, you could still own 25% of the horse and the remaining 75% of shareholders could override him to sell the horse on. 

And in all honesty Jonty knew the horse had talent, but a lot of horses either get injured or don't reach the heights expected of them.  If all event riders were to try and secure every decent horse with potential that they ride years in advance, then they'd have fields full of them!


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## ihatework (9 August 2017)

Lanky Loll said:



			But a more savvy business person that had ridden the horse since it was 5yo would have had a contract in place or even bought shares in it then to ensure that he kept the ride in the future.  
I'm happy as others have said that the horse is staying in a home where he is obviously adored but people are paying for Jonty's lack of foresight sadly.
		
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It's not quite that simple though is it?
To have exclusivity on a ride means the rider has to input something, either by purchasing a %share or offering a very good deal on production costs.
Event riders in general work on very tight margins and unfortunately can't always afford to subsidise other people's horses. Those are the risks you take! 
I don't think this is about Jonty not being savvy, it's about life as an event rider full stop. Another rider might take the hit easier if they had another top horse or two coming through, but for those with just one it hits hard. 

But then these are first world problems, let's face it!


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## abbijay (9 August 2017)

paddi22 said:



			But there is honestly no way an event rider could go to a bank and get a loan for half a million for a horse. It just wouldn't happen.  No bank would go for it
		
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If a bank won't fund it is it really a worthwhile investment? 
Imagine this were a house not a horse: You want to buy a wonderful house that's up for sale at £550k. The owners have had a much bigger offer from a Chinese investment firm but "don't want the house to stop being a family home" perhaps they even know you as the buyer. You apply to the bank for a mortgage and they tell you the house is not worth that money and the most they will fund is £250k. Do you start asking your friends to donate £300k to buy you a new home? 
For me, the way this has been managed as a PR exercise smacks of there being a number of funders in place prior to this being publicised but they didn't feel the price tag being asked was appropriate so had to think up a way to fund the shortfall. Ultimately the former owner wins, the rider wins and the new owners win. It is the donors who lose out.


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## Lanky Loll (9 August 2017)

ihatework said:



			It's not quite that simple though is it?
To have exclusivity on a ride means the rider has to input something, either by purchasing a %share or offering a very good deal on production costs.
Event riders in general work on very tight margins and unfortunately can't always afford to subsidise other people's horses. Those are the risks you take! 
I don't think this is about Jonty not being savvy, it's about life as an event rider full stop. Another rider might take the hit easier if they had another top horse or two coming through, but for those with just one it hits hard. 

But then these are first world problems, let's face it!
		
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Maybe I'm looking at it with SJ eyes  but most professionals would have either a share or other clauses in place that whilst they might not have prevented the sale of the horse (CH and Uthopia being an example here, or Ben Maher and one of his that ended up being sold.. can't think which one now) but would have meant that they at least benefited from the sale - doesn't appear that any of this was done in this case and he had the ride due to goodwill - which is all well and good until the owner needs funds and then you end up in this situation.  And yes I do know of other riders that have had the ride sold out from under them - they've learnt from it and moved on!


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## Fun Times (9 August 2017)

Sorry if am missing the obvious but can anyone clarify why the horse couldn't have gone to the Europeans unless the money was raised by a specified date? Could the owner not have waited till after the Europeans for the cash?


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## Lanky Loll (9 August 2017)

Fun Times said:



			Sorry if am missing the obvious but can anyone clarify why the horse couldn't have gone to the Europeans unless the money was raised by a specified date? Could the owner not have waited till after the Europeans for the cash?
		
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It's to do with clarity of ownership - if there is any dispute / uncertainty the FEI wouldn't have allowed the horse to compete.  Again see what happened with Uti and him being unable to compete for a year +


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## Fun Times (9 August 2017)

But wasn't the Utopia thing to do.with the horse being involved in bankruptcy proceedings? That I can understand as causing dispute as regarding ownership. There is no dispute here.


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## Lanky Loll (9 August 2017)

Fun Times said:



			But wasn't the Utopia thing to do.with the horse being involved in bankruptcy proceedings? That I can understand as causing dispute as regarding ownership. There is no dispute here.
		
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Just my understanding  could also be down to the selection process - if they selected him and then he became unavailable (sale going through new owners not wanting him to run due to risk of injury for example) that wouldn't be a great place for the team to be in.


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## Leo Walker (9 August 2017)

ester said:



			I find the 100k donation interesting, I'm surprised that anyone putting that much in does not want an official share.
		
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People do think they have shares. I've seen so many Facebook updates today taking about how people own a share of the horse. They dont.


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## AFB (9 August 2017)

abbijay said:



			If a bank won't fund it is it really a worthwhile investment?
		
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Yes, a lot of the time it is. It's about the amount of risk you're willing to take and a bank will not do that on a horse that could go lame in the field 30 minutes later.

If we thought along the lines of a bank none of us would own horses.


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## teapot (9 August 2017)

I thought the timing thing was due to the fact he and Art wouldn't be allowed to compete at the Euros if there were queries over ownership? They'll be heading to Poland this weekend/early next week!


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## ester (9 August 2017)

But as there was no dispute/forced sale if the money wasn't raised he wouldn't be sold and the original owner wouldn't own him - and it would be pretty rough of her to sell him within the week!? and she'd definitely have needed someone waiting in the wings to buy him.


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## Lanky Loll (9 August 2017)

ester said:



			But as there was no dispute/forced sale if the money wasn't raised he wouldn't be sold and the original owner wouldn't own him - and it would be pretty rough of her to sell him within the week!? and she'd definitely have needed someone waiting in the wings to buy him.
		
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But therein begs the question - if there isn't a (now p'd off) buyer sat waiting why the hoohah before the Europeans, it could have waited until after surely if the other money wasn't on the table to start with?


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## teapot (9 August 2017)

Lanky Loll said:



			But therein begs the question - if there isn't a (now p'd off) buyer sat waiting why the hoohah before the Europeans, it could have waited until after surely if the other money wasn't on the table to start with?
		
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That's what I was wondering, or are you not allowed to compete at FEI level on a horse that is 'for sale'?


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## ihatework (9 August 2017)

teapot said:



			That's what I was wondering, or are you not allowed to compete at FEI level on a horse that is 'for sale'?
		
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I don't know the answer to that question although it wouldn't surprise me if there was some sort of NF or FEI rule, 

But the other consideration would be owner consent. If I was an owner with a life changing amount of money on the table for my horse, there is no way I would risk it running at championship level until the deal was confirmed.


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## DabDab (9 August 2017)

Oh good, I'm glad he's been able to keep him -  thanks for updating op


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## Turitea (9 August 2017)

Not a fan of begging the public for money in order to keep a horse.


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## mle22 (9 August 2017)

So pleased for Jonty and Art


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## Fun Times (9 August 2017)

Well it's certainly divided opinions!


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## Haphazardhacker (9 August 2017)

I donated and am thrilled for them. I also have donated a fair bit to Willberry and will continue to do so.


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## Hoof_Prints (9 August 2017)

It just doesn't sit comfortably with me, for a number of reasons .. but you can't tell people what to do with their money, so might as well be pleased for him I suppose!


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## teapot (9 August 2017)

ihatework said:



			I don't know the answer to that question although it wouldn't surprise me if there was some sort of NF or FEI rule, 

But the other consideration would be owner consent. If I was an owner with a life changing amount of money on the table for my horse, there is no way I would risk it running at championship level until the deal was confirmed.
		
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That's a very good point! 

I didn't donate but it's been an interesting story to follow.


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## Mariposa (9 August 2017)

ihatework said:



			But the other consideration would be owner consent. If I was an owner with a life changing amount of money on the table for my horse, there is no way I would risk it running at championship level until the deal was confirmed.
		
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I imagine this was the reason - the owner probably wouldn't ( and rightly IMHO) risk it if the horse was for sale.

I donated a small donation ( maybe a tail hair or two!) to the Art fund, and I'm delighted Jonty has secured him!


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## Honey08 (9 August 2017)

Loads of people have donated £££ to the Wilberry cause.

I donated quite happily.  I've enjoyed watching the pair of them progress over the past few years at various events and I've always liked Jonty from how he comes across in the celebrity talk area at Burghley.  I've wasted £20 on a lot worse things!  I will have a big smile on my face at events now when my nose whisker/tail hair goes past.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (9 August 2017)

I would far rather give my money to a worthier cause than buying an event rider a horse. To those that parted with their money for this I'd imagine you feel great just now and that's good. 

I just ran an obstacle race for charity, with a friend, it was EGS and I promoted it and everyone that wanted to/could donated, wasn't anywhere near the amount raised for this 'cause' however  my money raised will go to helping treat or cure a horrible disease, not funding someone to jump round Blenheim. 

Each to their own as we say however


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## DabDab (10 August 2017)

Black Beastie said:



			I would far rather give my money to a worthier cause than buying an event rider a horse. To those that parted with their money for this I'd imagine you feel great just now and that's good. 

I just ran an obstacle race for charity, with a friend, it was EGS and I promoted it and everyone that wanted to/could donated, wasn't anywhere near the amount raised for this 'cause' however  my money raised will go to helping treat or cure a horrible disease, not funding someone to jump round Blenheim. 

Each to their own as we say however 

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Why would a donation to this cause reduce the amount donated to other causes? Often the opposite is true, people donate to a 'successful' cause and then become more open to donating to other things in future. Maybe they just put in the £20 that would otherwise have been spent on overpriced coffee or cheap clothes made in sweat shops - you don't know.

Having some of the most competitive horses and riders in these isles is one of the reasons we have such a great eventing culture and heritage. I can, do and will continue to contribute to sports activities, because far from frivolous, I believe them to be absolutely vital to public health and conscience. Without horse sport I have no idea what my life would be - if I wish to contribute to the wider fabric of that sport then I absolutely shall.


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## ycbm (10 August 2017)

Is equestrianism the only sport where British people will give money to help another country to beat British competitors at the European Championships, do you think?  Serious question.


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## Honey08 (10 August 2017)

Black Beastie said:



			I would far rather give my money to a worthier cause than buying an event rider a horse. To those that parted with their money for this I'd imagine you feel great just now and that's good. 

I just ran an obstacle race for charity, with a friend, it was EGS and I promoted it and everyone that wanted to/could donated, wasn't anywhere near the amount raised for this 'cause' however  my money raised will go to helping treat or cure a horrible disease, not funding someone to jump round Blenheim. 

Each to their own as we say however 

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Are you suggesting that those who have donated think of it as a charity donation?  I don't!  I was contributing to something I enjoy (just like paying for my own horses!).  I put a lot of work and money into various causes, most people do, it's nothing to brag about.  But we all still spend money on other things too.  Most people on here spend hundreds a month on horses - that's for our amusement too...  I used to spend £100s on Be membership and entries, so £20 to watch someone I admire compete doesn't compare!!


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## MotherOfChickens (10 August 2017)

ycbm said:



			Is equestrianism the only sport where British people will give money to help another country to beat British competitors at the European Championships, do you think?  Serious question.
		
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possibly. I think as riders we are more likely to cheer on a foreign rider if they ride a good round -we all know how difficult it is and a certain amount of luck is involved.

I didnt contribute, I find the idea ridiculous and hope it doesnt set a precedent. however, each to their own with their own money.


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## ycbm (10 August 2017)

MotherOfChickens said:



			possibly. I think as riders we are more likely to cheer on a foreign rider if they ride a good round -we all know how difficult it is and a certain amount of luck is involved.

I didnt contribute, I find the idea ridiculous and hope it doesnt set a precedent. however, each to their own with their own money.
		
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Agree on both counts.

I keep wondering how many people will be waving goodbye this week to a horse they adore but divorce/job loss/something means they are forced to sell, when five grand would change their lives beyond reckoning, never mind half a million.


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## Auslander (10 August 2017)

Dear me. I've only just returned to this post, and seen all the kerfuffle! Particularly loving the conspiracy theory.

I'm delighted for Jonty - he's a nice bloke, who has worked hard to achieve what he's achieved, and is overwhelmed at the support he has received from the equestrian community. Judging by the radio interview I heard yesterday, he is genuinely over the moon to have secured the ride on a horse that he has produced through the levels to be one of the best event horses in the world. 

If people want to bung a few quid towards the purchase of a great horse, for a rider who deserves to keep the ride, then good for them. No-one coerced them into donating, and no-one conned them into thinking they owned a share in the horse. Yes - it was a well marketed campaign, but there's nothing wrong with that either. It did what it was supposed to do, in a very short time frame. That's why marketing exists.

I think it's bit sad that horsey people are being so negative about something that has made the equestrian community come together to do something lovely, particularly as it's not something that directly affects anyone who didn't choose to donate, but I guess the nay-sayers have as much right to be negative as the people who donated have the right to be thrilled that Jontys "hare-brained scheme" was a success.


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## ycbm (10 August 2017)

Auslander said:



			If people want to bung a few quid towards the purchase of a great horse, for a rider who deserves to keep the ride, then good for them. No-one coerced them into donating, and no-one conned them into thinking they owned a share in the horse. Yes - it was a well marketed campaign, but there's nothing wrong with that either. It did what it was supposed to do, in a very short time frame. That's why marketing exists.
		
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Totally agree.


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## twiggy2 (10 August 2017)

Each to their own, if you wanted to give and we're able to great, if you didn't then I hope you enjoyed your money elsewhere.


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## DabDab (10 August 2017)

ycbm said:



			Is equestrianism the only sport where British people will give money to help another country to beat British competitors at the European Championships, do you think?  Serious question.
		
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It's not any other nation though, it's Ireland. Their horse sport industry and ours are so closely linked, particularly where eventing is concerned. And I'd happily give money in other sports if it meant keeping other nations stars on the road, because I enjoy watching them.

In football the British public pretty much do fund the teams of other nations that beat us, by paying the players ridiculous salaries to play in our national leagues.

Sport is one of the few areas of life where performance at the highest level is strongly dependant on talent and hard work. And in this twisted up commercialised world that the majority of us have to operate in, that is a very welcome relief.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (10 August 2017)

I don't think people are being negative, I do just think that people lose the rides on horses all the time, that's just the nature of things.  I just think that spending that amonti of money to buy a name a horse is strange when we all moan the price of this or that and the next thing. Yes everyone is allowed to spend their money as they like, Christ o don't particularly like the fact that my taxes pay for dole rats who have never worked a day in their life through choice have horses, massive cars, paid for house etc etc but hey I wouldn't walk up to one of them and say 'I fund your bl***dy horses'. 

The idea of giving someone money at that level to buy a horse just doesn't sit right. As I said to all those who gave great and I hope that in future you may put your hands in your pockets once again for a cause more likely to effect a large number of horses rather than just the rider of one of them as someone suggested feel good about one 'cause' so give to another


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## milliepops (10 August 2017)

DabDab said:



			Why would a donation to this cause reduce the amount donated to other causes? Often the opposite is true, people donate to a 'successful' cause and then become more open to donating to other things in future. Maybe they just put in the £20 that would otherwise have been spent on overpriced coffee or cheap clothes made in sweat shops - you don't know.

Having some of the most competitive horses and riders in these isles is one of the reasons we have such a great eventing culture and heritage. I can, do and will continue to contribute to sports activities, because far from frivolous, I believe them to be absolutely vital to public health and conscience. Without horse sport I have no idea what my life would be - if I wish to contribute to the wider fabric of that sport then I absolutely shall.
		
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^^ totally agree  

In my case, me giving a small token to the fund for Art directly led to a donation to Wilberry that I wouldn't have made at that time otherwise, and I bet I wasn't the only one.


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## ycbm (10 August 2017)

DabDab said:



			It's not any other nation though, it's Ireland. Their horse sport industry and ours are so closely linked, particularly where eventing is concerned. And I'd happily give money in other sports if it meant keeping other nations stars on the road, because I enjoy watching them.

In football the British public pretty much do fund the teams of other nations that beat us, by paying the players ridiculous salaries to play in our national leagues.

Sport is one of the few areas of life where performance at the highest level is strongly dependant on talent and hard work. And in this twisted up commercialised world that the majority of us have to operate in, that is a very welcome relief.
		
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I agree with you on everything except the football analogy. I don't think there is any way that some who enjoys seeing their team compete against another team would pay one penny directly towards buying a player for the other team. 

I'm a Macc season ticket holder and we do crowd fund buying players because the club has no money,  but I'm sure Wrexham and Chester aren't contributing


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## junglefairy (10 August 2017)

I can't quite wrap my head around the idea of it myself and I didn't 'donate', but then lots of my friends will easily blow £100 on a Friday night out, or I've just spent £100 on a 1 hour lesson. We work hard for our money and should enjoy spending it however we choose to do so.

That said I can't help but think that both Jonty, and Art's previous owners, have done very very well out of all of this! 

Does anyone know what's the going rate for a horse like Art (or is there not one)?


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## ester (10 August 2017)

Auslander said:



			Dear me. I've only just returned to this post, and seen all the kerfuffle! Particularly loving the conspiracy theory.

I'm delighted for Jonty - he's a nice bloke, who has worked hard to achieve what he's achieved, and is overwhelmed at the support he has received from the equestrian community. Judging by the radio interview I heard yesterday, he is genuinely over the moon to have secured the ride on a horse that he has produced through the levels to be one of the best event horses in the world. 

If people want to bung a few quid towards the purchase of a great horse, for a rider who deserves to keep the ride, then good for them. No-one coerced them into donating, and no-one conned them into thinking they owned a share in the horse. Yes - it was a well marketed campaign, but there's nothing wrong with that either. It did what it was supposed to do, in a very short time frame. That's why marketing exists.

I think it's bit sad that horsey people are being so negative about something that has made the equestrian community come together to do something lovely, particularly as it's not something that directly affects anyone who didn't choose to donate, but I guess the nay-sayers have as much right to be negative as the people who donated have the right to be thrilled that Jontys "hare-brained scheme" was a success.
		
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Aus what are your thoughts on the 'Friends of Art' mentioned in the brochure and whether people think that was what was actually happening. As well as the obviously flippant 'I own an eyelash' posts on facebook I, like Leo (and others have) says have seen some from people that seems to suggest that is maybe what they think they have entered into.


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## ihatework (10 August 2017)

ester said:



			Aus what are your thoughts on the 'Friends of Art' mentioned in the brochure and whether people think that was what was actually happening. As well as the obviously flippant 'I own an eyelash' posts on facebook I, like Leo (and others have) says have seen some from people that seems to suggest that is maybe what they think they have entered into.
		
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I know you asked Aus, but I think you are getting way too hung up on trying to interpret what people 'think' they have signed up for. Personally I think there would be a very small minority who have gone into this thinking they have done anything other than donate, no strings attached. I'm struggling to see why this concerns you so much given I assume you haven't donated (and neither have I, as my main standpoint is because it's not a British combination!)


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## Goldenstar (10 August 2017)

I don't think anyone who gave really seriously thinks they own part of the horse , it was quite clear they gave money to the rider and he would use the money to buy the horse .
Of course there may well be other stuff going on with people who gave big donations but once the horse belongs to the rider he can sign part of it over to anyone he chooses .


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## DabDab (10 August 2017)

ycbm said:



			I agree with you on everything except the football analogy. I don't think there is any way that some who enjoys seeing their team compete against another team would pay one penny directly towards buying a player for the other team. 

I'm a Macc season ticket holder and we do crowd fund buying players because the club has no money,  but I'm sure Wrexham and Chester aren't contributing 

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But those ain't all British are they  you're funding the careers of people who will contribute to beating Britain in international competitions - what's the difference? 

Honest confession - I don't really like football, it's one of the few sports that I struggle to get much enjoyment out of watching. But I know lots of people do get a lot of enjoyment out of it and therefore fund the slightly mad industry that exists as a result. To each their own and all that. 

The involvement of money in sport I don't think sits well with most people, because sport should be somehow more 'pure' than that, but I guess it is what it is.


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## ester (10 August 2017)

ihatework said:



			I know you asked Aus, but I think you are getting way too hung up on trying to interpret what people 'think' they have signed up for. Personally I think there would be a very small minority who have gone into this thinking they have done anything other than donate, no strings attached. I'm struggling to see why this concerns you so much given I assume you haven't donated (and neither have I, as my main standpoint is because it's not a British combination!)
		
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Me get hung up on something  Never  

TBF it is mostly because I do like things to add up and make sense and the brochure and website just didn't to me at all from the outset, they are quite contradictory.  Someone did mention originally it was probably done in haste but there weren't any corrections put through. So I just wondered as pro what Aus thought given her mention of the good marketing/that it no one was conned, ergo it was all very clear. 

I am sure that most people don't think they have any sort of share given the button clearly said donate and most people wouldn't have found the brochure but I am just not sure we can say no one did.

FWIW I don't think anyone who has said they have reservations doesn't think he is a good bloke or is genuinely over the moon either. And I am pleased that those who donated are happy and got what they wanted too . But it is ok to think that and still find a bit a strange .


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## AFB (10 August 2017)

Auslander said:



			Dear me. I've only just returned to this post, and seen all the kerfuffle! Particularly loving the conspiracy theory.

I'm delighted for Jonty - he's a nice bloke, who has worked hard to achieve what he's achieved, and is overwhelmed at the support he has received from the equestrian community. Judging by the radio interview I heard yesterday, he is genuinely over the moon to have secured the ride on a horse that he has produced through the levels to be one of the best event horses in the world. 

If people want to bung a few quid towards the purchase of a great horse, for a rider who deserves to keep the ride, then good for them. No-one coerced them into donating, and no-one conned them into thinking they owned a share in the horse. Yes - it was a well marketed campaign, but there's nothing wrong with that either. It did what it was supposed to do, in a very short time frame. That's why marketing exists.

I think it's bit sad that horsey people are being so negative about something that has made the equestrian community come together to do something lovely, particularly as it's not something that directly affects anyone who didn't choose to donate, but I guess the nay-sayers have as much right to be negative as the people who donated have the right to be thrilled that Jontys "hare-brained scheme" was a success.
		
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Very well put.


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## bluedanube (10 August 2017)

FfionWinnie said:



			I'd love if people donated an equal amount to say Willberry Wonderpony since that would really be life changing for those who need and deserve it most.
		
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Agree wholeheartedly


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## Annagain (10 August 2017)

https://daks2k3a4ib2z.cloudfront.ne...fb57/59663c1afe56633eb897d38b_artbrochure.pdf

Am I the only one who is more bothered by the superfluous apostrophe in this than anything else? 

ETA - actually all the drafting is pretty terrible. There's a load of punctuation missing and sentences without any verbs.


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## DabDab (10 August 2017)

annagain said:



https://daks2k3a4ib2z.cloudfront.ne...fb57/59663c1afe56633eb897d38b_artbrochure.pdf

Am I the only one who is more bothered by the superfluous apostrophe in this than anything else? 

ETA - actually all the drafting is pretty terrible. There's a load of punctuation missing and sentences without any verbs.
		
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Haha, yes you are you funny creature - now get back to conspiracy theories or '"I heart Jonty" posts please


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## ester (10 August 2017)

annagain said:



https://daks2k3a4ib2z.cloudfront.ne...fb57/59663c1afe56633eb897d38b_artbrochure.pdf

Am I the only one who is more bothered by the superfluous apostrophe in this than anything else? 

ETA - actually all the drafting is pretty terrible. There's a load of punctuation missing and sentences without any verbs.
		
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I had issue with covert


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## Annagain (10 August 2017)

ester said:



			I had issue with covert  

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I find it really odd that someone could charge a lot of money for a brochure like that but not have the professional skill to write correctly or the self-awareness to get it proof-read. Surely it's as important as the design? I'd argue it's more important but I'm a words, not pictures, person


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## Auslander (10 August 2017)

ester said:



			Aus what are your thoughts on the 'Friends of Art' mentioned in the brochure and whether people think that was what was actually happening. As well as the obviously flippant 'I own an eyelash' posts on facebook I, like Leo (and others have) says have seen some from people that seems to suggest that is maybe what they think they have entered into.
		
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Haven't really got any thoughts! I'm just commenting on how I feel about the fundraising effort  - which is that it's nice, and I have a warm glow seeing how happy and relieved Jonty is. Personally, it wouldn't occur to me to think that I owned any part of the horse, just that I had gifted a small sum to help make it happen. Jonty has said that he is thinking about how to make the "Friends of Art" feel included, so I'm sure there will be more info in the not too distant future.


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## ester (10 August 2017)

Ah no see that is still a helpful reply as I haven't seen that term be used anywhere else but did wonder if it might come through later  but just wasn't specified/didn't have time to be specified yet . I'd think even if it were just a blog everyone could follow to feel still included etc.


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## ycbm (10 August 2017)

DabDab said:



			It's not any other nation though, it's Ireland. Their horse sport industry and ours are so closely linked, particularly where eventing is concerned. And I'd happily give money in other sports if it meant keeping other nations stars on the road, because I enjoy watching them.

In football the British public pretty much do fund the teams of other nations that beat us, by paying the players ridiculous salaries to play in our national leagues.

Sport is one of the few areas of life where performance at the highest level is strongly dependant on talent and hard work. And in this twisted up commercialised world that the majority of us have to operate in, that is a very welcome relief.
		
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The difference is that football fans pay to watch games, not directly to finance players.  The analogy would be that people who go and watch Brits competing affiliated in Ireland are funding the Irish team. 

The analogy with Jonty would be that English fans sent money direct to the Irish FA so that they can afford to go to the world cup. It would never happen. I think, though, that it's possible that it might happen in Rugby, because that's a much tighter knit sport internationally. 

I don't much like football either, but my OH watches enough horses he doesn't much like watching


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## Mariposa (10 August 2017)

I think the main thing is that people are getting hung up the charity analogy. It's not a charity, no one has pretended it's a charity. 

I gave £20 to Jonty ( who gives his time to us freely each year when he presents a Badminton preview in aid of the RDA and has always been utterly charming and generous with his time). I also give to Prince Flulffy Kareem and Cancer Research monthly. Will any of that change because I happened to put £20 towards a crowdfunding project? Er....no. 

One is a crowdfunding project, one is charity - they are not the same!


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## Auslander (10 August 2017)

ester said:



			Ah no see that is still a helpful reply as I haven't seen that term be used anywhere else but did wonder if it might come through later  but just wasn't specified/didn't have time to be specified yet . I'd think even if it were just a blog everyone could follow to feel still included etc.
		
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Quote from Jonty's facebook page

 "I cannot pretend that the last few weeks/months has been easy. But, YOU did it. I came to you with a hair brained plan that required huge commitment on your part. Unsurprisingly you stepped up to the mark and Arts ownership is now secure. He is at his forever home. 
I need to take a little time, to let this incredible thing sink in, to make sure I make the right plans and decisions by the horse, and to make sure I do the same for the part owners and crowd fund members. We have a stack of ideas on how to keep you all involved and how to create the family around Art that we envisaged at the beginning. 
What you have done for Art and I is unprecedented, we need to work out our best ways of thanking you and our best ways ways of keeping you involved. 
For now, I am going to take 24hrs and try and focus on the day job, as well as make some decisions. 
Below is a little picture of someone who really wants to thank you to you all. 
As for me, I am genuinely speechless, the sentiment, the messages and the kindness has been mind blowing. I cannot find suitable words to Thank-you all so much. Speak soon - cheers Jontyandart"


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## DabDab (10 August 2017)

ycbm said:



			The difference is that football fans pay to watch games, not directly to finance players.  The analogy would be that people who go and watch Brits competing affiliated in Ireland are funding the Irish team. 

The analogy with Jonty would be that English fans sent money direct to the Irish FA so that they can afford to go to the world cup. It would never happen. I think, though, that it's possible that it might happen in Rugby, because that's a much tighter knit sport internationally. 

I don't much like football either, but my OH watches enough horses he doesn't much like watching 

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You just said up thread that you have contributed to the crowd funding of purchasing players?

There are lots of models for getting money into sport, but they all boil down to people paying to experience the world's best and feel collective inclusion in their success and outstanding performances. This may have been an unprecedented method in equestrianism, but the fundamentals are not a great deal different to anything that is commonplace. I would rather contribute directly to a horse purchase for a top rider who has done a brilliant job producing the horse than be sold some 'magic' product I neither want nor need.


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## Luci07 (10 August 2017)

I am delighted for him. I don't see any great conspiracy and I would agree that eventing (with the exception of Olly Townsend) is not commercially set up at all. showjumping does a much better job. I can't blame the owner - it's life changing money but I do not,for one moment, believe this to be some sort of scam dreamed upto con Joe Public.  You event because you love it/obsessed with it. You don't become a pro rider to make a fortune! Well done!


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## ycbm (10 August 2017)

DabDab said:



			You just said up thread that you have contributed to the crowd funding of purchasing players?
		
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Yes, when your team is as skint as ours is, you need to buy the odd player or we'd be going down the leagues and have no decent level of football to watch!  Last year we crowd funded one month because there wasn't enough money in the kitty to pay the wages.  We're paying ten grand between two thousand of us, for a team we go and watch three times a month, not half a million quid for an international who will play against England!

I have a brick in the stadium wall with my name on it too


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## paddi22 (10 August 2017)

the 'why didn't people donate to the wilberberry thing instead' thing is a bit annoying. People can chose to give their cash to whatever they want, and noone said it was a charity. To follow that line of reasoning then you'd be walking behind people in supermarkets saying 'why don't you give to wilberberry instead of buying that bottle of wine'

I donated purely because as a horse lover I cannot imagine how difficult it would be to be parted from your horse of a lifetime, a horse you adore and  who you produced to olympic level. If I can skip a takeaway and donate to a fellow horselover to keep their dream alive then i consider it money well spent. I don't care if I own part of a horse or not - and my friends who think along similar lines don't either.

I'l get paid back by enjoying watching them compete and having a little glow that I helped in a tiny way.


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## ozpoz (10 August 2017)

I'm happy for him and I don't have an issue with crowdfunding. All of the UK sports are crowdfunded in a way, if you think about the National Lottery. 
It is nice for the horse, to stay with the rider he trusts and lovely for the rider who has put in so much work.


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## Mariposa (10 August 2017)

paddi22 said:



			I'l get paid back by enjoying watching them compete and having a little glow that I helped in a tiny way.
		
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Nicely put


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## {97702} (10 August 2017)

Since I am a livery on the yard of a rather well known eventer, I was in two minds about the whole idea - my instinct said 'why can't he find a syndicate like everyone else' even though I like what I have seen of Jonty from social media/interviews.  I have seen the support Jonty has got from the rest of the eventing world, that was enough to show me that people don't generally seem to resent the idea.   I did not donate, personally I would rather support my yard owner, but I can quite see why people did


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## DabDab (10 August 2017)

ycbm said:



			Yes, when your team is as skint as ours is, you need to buy the odd player or we'd be going down the leagues and have no decent level of football to watch!  Last year we crowd funded one month because there wasn't enough money in the kitty to pay the wages.  We're paying ten grand between two thousand of us, for a team we go and watch three times a month, not half a million quid for an international who will play against England!

I have a brick in the stadium wall with my name on it too 

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Then I just don't see why you would have such an issue with this way of raising money.


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## ycbm (10 August 2017)

DabDab said:



			Then I just don't see why you would have such an issue with this way of raising money.
		
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I don't recognise anything I have written in your description 'such an issue'.  I don't have any issue with it. I am bemused by it. It's for other people to decide whether they want to buy a half a million quid horse for a single owner.  

If you can't see the difference between two thousand people from a small geographical area wanting to watch an hour and a half of live football of a reasonable standard three times a month by players wearing the blue shirt of their home town and contributing ten quid each to that goal ( ) on top of three hundred plus they've already spent on a season ticket,  and people buying a half a million pound international horse for one lucky owner who they don't know,  will never meet and rarely, if at all, watch in live action for a couple of minutes, then I really can't help you


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## DabDab (10 August 2017)

ycbm said:



			I don't recognise anything I have written in your description 'such an issue'.  I don't have any issue with it. I am bemused by it. It's for other people to decide whether they want to buy a half a million quid horse for a single owner.  

If you can't see the difference between two thousand people from a small geographical area wanting to watch an hour and a half of live football of a reasonable standard three times a month by players wearing the blue shirt of their home town and contributing ten quid each to that goal ( ) on top of three hundred plus they've already spent on a season ticket,  and people buying a half a million pound international horse for one lucky owner who they don't know,  will never meet and rarely, if at all, watch in live action for a couple of minutes, then I really can't help you 

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There is no difference, other than in the inclinations and emotional makeup of the person donating the money. I wouldn't give a penny of my money to add to the obscene amount of money that floods into football daily - I'd rather chew my own arm off frankly.

Decisions are allowed to be made by the heart sometimes, if you always try to find the logic in them it will do no good for your soul.


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## ycbm (10 August 2017)

DabDab said:



			There is no difference, other than in the inclinations and emotional makeup of the person donating the money. I wouldn't give a penny of my money to add to the obscene amount of money that floods into football daily - I'd rather chew my own arm off frankly.

.
		
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I think there is every difference. No one individual is being gifted a half a million pound asset.

Did you miss my references to not being able to pay the wages, and paying ten grand for a 'good' player?  There is no obscene amount of money in the lower leagues of football. There is barely enough to run the game. Our players probably don't even get national average wages and some of them are paid only if they play. Others in our league are part timers with other jobs. I think you are mistaking Premier League for National League, there is simply no comparison.


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## Dave's Mam (11 August 2017)

ycbm said:



			I think there is every difference. No one individual is being gifted a half a million pound asset.

Did you miss my references to not being able to pay the wages, and paying ten grand for a 'good' player?  There is no obscene amount of money in the lower leagues of football. There is barely enough to run the game. Our players probably don't even get national average wages and some of them are paid only if they play. Others in our league are part timers with other jobs. I think you are mistaking Premier League for National League, there is simply no comparison.
		
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National is a whole different kettle of potless compared to the dazzling & eyewatering money in Premier.


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## DabDab (11 August 2017)

ycbm said:



			I think there is every difference. No one individual is being gifted a half a million pound asset.
		
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Eventers don't generally get paid much to ride either.

It's not an asset Jonny can sell really, and most of the value in that asset was created by his hard work.


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## ycbm (11 August 2017)

DabDab said:



			Eventers don't generally get paid much to ride either.

It's not an asset Jonny can sell really, and most of the value in that asset was created by his hard work.
		
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You are starting to sound incredibly defensive. If you were happy giving Jonty money, fine. It doesn't bother me one way or the other. 

But please don't try and compare a sport which costs an individual many thousands of pounds a year to compete in, driving assets worth half a million  round in a lorry worth the deposit on a large house, with a National League football team!  

Come to a match with me sometime. I'll buy you a pie and show you the difference.


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## DabDab (11 August 2017)

I'm not defensive, I just don't agree with you, there is a difference.
I did not make that comparison, you did, I mentioned football and international players because you seemed concerned about the fact that he was not British. You then raised the issue of your own team.

I was talking in general about getting money into sport and in response you wombled off into some sour grapes type argument about buying an individual a half million pound asset. I personally hope that there can be more community funded horse sport activities.

You are the one that criticised this scheme and it's supporters (in fairly strong terms on the other thread), I merely responded on this thread to your criticisms.

I made a small donation to this because I wanted to, you put money into things I never would because you want to. You can just live and let live, you don't have to criticise everyone that makes different life choices to you.


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## {97702} (11 August 2017)

ycbm said:



			I think there is every difference. No one individual is being gifted a half a million pound asset.

Did you miss my references to not being able to pay the wages, and paying ten grand for a 'good' player?  There is no obscene amount of money in the lower leagues of football. There is barely enough to run the game. Our players probably don't even get national average wages and some of them are paid only if they play. Others in our league are part timers with other jobs. I think you are mistaking Premier League for National League, there is simply no comparison.
		
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Sorry I beg to differ - I used to do HR for a club who have just moved up to League Two, the salaries being paid to their players were not inconsiderable even when they were still in the lower league (can't remember what that is called).  They were certainly above national average wage!


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## Luci07 (11 August 2017)

Lévrier;13611053 said:
			
		


			Sorry I beg to differ - I used to do HR for a club who have just moved up to League Two, the salaries being paid to their players were not inconsiderable even when they were still in the lower league (can't remember what that is called).  They were certainly above national average wage!
		
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Interesting points. We are all coloured by our personal experiences. This quote about owning/being given a £1/2 million asset is misleading. Said asset has a fluctuating value and can only only go down. I am influenced as I have a friend who tried to make a go of it eventing professionally and gave up everything to slog at it for years. Hence I understand this is not a sport which will make the riders wealthy and when I see someone who, against the odds, has found produced and made it the top I want to support him. Not as an English woman versus the Irish team but as a fellow equestrian. I strongly dislike football and a lot of the arguments about this could be made about football too. End of the day, no one was forced to contribute, we are not idiots, we made our choices. I can't imagine contributing to a footballers salary but we if we were all the same, how boring our lives would be!


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## ester (11 August 2017)

Now I really fancy a pie....


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## Bernster (11 August 2017)

ester said:



			Now I really fancy a pie.... 

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That's the ticket ester, let's remember what's important in life &#65533;&#65533;. Although as it stands I think this thread is more in need of popcorn...


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## ester (11 August 2017)

Well dessert obviously. 

(I don't do salted popcorn  I mean why would you .)


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## ycbm (11 August 2017)

Lévrier;13611053 said:
			
		


			Sorry I beg to differ - I used to do HR for a club who have just moved up to League Two, the salaries being paid to their players were not inconsiderable even when they were still in the lower league (can't remember what that is called).  They were certainly above national average wage!
		
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You know Macclesfield Town's finances? We are lucky to get a home crowd of 1500.  That's WHY that club moved into the real league, because they could afford to pay for better players! 


I am intrigued by the level of defensiveness of some of the people who contributed to the fund. If it made you feel good, isn't that the only thing that matters? What other people might think is irrelevant.


Toffee popcorn is definitely the only one worth eating Ester


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## milliepops (11 August 2017)

ycbm said:



			I am intrigued by the level of defensiveness of some of the people who contributed to the fund. If it made you feel good, isn't that the only thing that matters? What other people might think is irrelevant.
		
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I don't think anyone is getting defensive, but it is a little tiring for those of us who gave a small amount - or even perhaps for those who didn't want to give any money but weren't offended by the idea-  to keep reading posts suggesting that we should only donate to charity, or that it was all a scam etc.


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## MotherOfChickens (11 August 2017)

ester said:



			Now I really fancy a pie.... 

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I _always_ fancy a pie.


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## ycbm (11 August 2017)

MotherOfChickens said:



			I _always_ fancy a pie.
		
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I can do you steak, meatanpotata, cheese and onion, 'Cornish' pasty, or a sausage roll. Bovril, tea or coffee?    Give me your order and I'll get them tomorrow


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## ester (11 August 2017)

steak and tea please


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## paddi22 (11 August 2017)

ycbm said:



			You know Macclesfield Town's finances? We are lucky to get a home crowd of 1500.  That's WHY that club moved into the real league, because they could afford to pay for better players! 


I am intrigued by the level of defensiveness of some of the people who contributed to the fund. If it made you feel good, isn't that the only thing that matters? What other people might think is irrelevant.


Click to expand...

I can personally vouch for myself being slighly defensive as their seems to be a viewpoint that I am some kind of selfish assh*le for giving 20 quid to jonty instead of a person's randomly chosen charity. Or that i'm some kind of simpleton who has been conned out of cash in some of kind devious scheme to fool everyone out of their money. 

I would also love some toffee popcorn, but maybe we should donate the cost of it to charity instead


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## Michen (12 August 2017)

https://www.horsesportireland.ie/update-from-jonty-evans-regarding-cooley-rorkes-drift-ish/

Surprising given the rush there was to secure the horse before the event etc, and the postings of dressage practice etc. Lots of disappointed donars I imagine!


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## Clodagh (12 August 2017)

Michen said:



https://www.horsesportireland.ie/update-from-jonty-evans-regarding-cooley-rorkes-drift-ish/

Surprising given the rush there was to secure the horse before the event etc, and the postings of dressage practice etc. Lots of disappointed donars I imagine!
		
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Yes, is a bit of a downer.


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## {97702} (12 August 2017)

ycbm said:



			You know Macclesfield Town's finances? We are lucky to get a home crowd of 1500.  That's WHY that club moved into the real league, because they could afford to pay for better players!
		
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Fortunately no, my experiences were enough to never want to do HR for a football club ever again   Actually the club is notable for losing a lot of players who are now playing very successfully for other clubs - they certainly didn't buy better players.....


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## ycbm (12 August 2017)

Michen, sounds like the owners are being very sticky about insisting on full payment before he goes anywhere.




ester said:



			steak and tea please 

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There ya go, Ester. Nil nil draw, not a bad result for us. Boys played well.


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## ycbm (12 August 2017)

Lévrier;13612188 said:
			
		


			Fortunately no, my experiences were enough to never want to do HR for a football club ever again   Actually the club is notable for losing a lot of players who are now playing very successfully for other clubs - they certainly didn't buy better players.....
		
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No, it's pretty clear that you don't know a lot about football   It's a team sport. Players play better in some team configurations than in others. You buy the players who suit your team. Players who fail for you succeed in a different team.  If they have been promoted, then clearly they were able to pay both the team players  and the manager that enabled them to do that. Success in football, unfortunately, depends on money. Outside the Premier League, most clubs struggle unless they have a sugar daddy with deep pockets.  Outside the top four ranks, into the National League,  teams scratch a living from month to month.  There were fewer than 1300 people at today's match, at an average ticket price of £15, twenty players in the squad, manager, assistant trainer, physio, ground staff, stewards, police,rates, maintenance, water, electricity..... Work it out for yourself, no-one in our club is making any kind of serious money!


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## {97702} (12 August 2017)

ycbm said:



			No, it's pretty clear that you don't know a lot about football   It's a team sport. Players play better in some team configurations than in others. You buy the players who suit your team. If they have been promoted, then clearly they were able to pay both the team players  and the manager that enabled them to do that. Success in football, unfortunately, depends on money. Outside the Premier League, most clubs struggle unless they have a sugar daddy with deep pockets.  Outside the top four ranks, into the National League,  teams scratch a living from month to month.  There were fewer than 1300 people at today's match, at an average ticket price of £15, twenty players in the squad, manager, assistant trainer, physio, ground staff, stewards, police,rates, maintenance, water, electricity..... Work it out for yourself, no-one in our club is making any kind of serious money!
		
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Awww bless - no, I am pleased to say I don't know anything about football so I am not sure why you feel it necessary to score cheap points in that way     Oh - yeah, maybe I do know....     I know perfectly well how the finances of a club work, I worked for the company that owned the club and hence I was fully conversant with their finances   Sugar Daddy with deep pockets - proves you don't know what you are talking about


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## ycbm (12 August 2017)

Lévrier;13612215 said:
			
		


			Awww bless - no, I am pleased to say I don't know anything about football so I am not sure why you feel it necessary to score cheap points in that way     Oh - yeah, maybe I do know....     I know perfectly well how the finances of a club work, I worked for the company that owned the club and hence I was fully conversant with their finances   Sugar Daddy with deep pockets - proves you don't know what you are talking about  

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You know how the finances on ONE club work,  which clearly had the money, as you have said, to pay higher wages than are generally available in the National League. Which is why they are no longer in the National League.


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## {97702} (12 August 2017)

ycbm said:



			You know how the finances on ONE club work,  which clearly had the money, as you have said, to pay higher wages than are generally available in the National League. Which is why they are no longer in the National League.
		
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Sore loser as ever


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## ycbm (12 August 2017)

What was the Club Levrier?


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## ycbm (13 August 2017)

Michen said:



https://www.horsesportireland.ie/update-from-jonty-evans-regarding-cooley-rorkes-drift-ish/

Surprising given the rush there was to secure the horse before the event etc, and the postings of dressage practice etc. Lots of disappointed donars I imagine!
		
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Sorry about the diversion Michen, let's get back to the topic.


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## sunleychops (13 August 2017)

All a bit fishy to me.

Why set the countdown clock to the date they did and then come out and say after everyone has donated that they won't have time? 
The entire thing seems like a bit of a farce to be honest.


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## Fun Times (13 August 2017)

It stinks. I've made my views known on it previously but I genuinely think it borders on fraud.


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## Velcrobum (13 August 2017)

http://www.horsesportireland.ie/update-from-jonty-evans-regarding-cooley-rorkes-drift-ish/

This might explain quite a lot of why he is not going and also there is the issue of transferring ownership as required by F.E.I. which is rather bureacratic and slow. It would not be the smartest idea to transport a horse all the way to Poland if you did not have the correct documents ready. I am sure if they had "chanced it" and had to turn round and come back there would be a fair few on this forum who would have critisised that citing horse welfare............


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## stormox (13 August 2017)

Fun Times said:



			It stinks. I've made my views known on it previously but I genuinely think it borders on fraud.
		
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How? No one was forced to donate,it was all done voluntarily. Just because he isnt going to Poland doesnt mean he isnt going to compete in the future.


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## sunleychops (13 August 2017)

Velcrobum said:



http://www.horsesportireland.ie/update-from-jonty-evans-regarding-cooley-rorkes-drift-ish/

This might explain quite a lot of why he is not going and also there is the issue of transferring ownership as required by F.E.I. which is rather bureacratic and slow. It would not be the smartest idea to transport a horse all the way to Poland if you did not have the correct documents ready. I am sure if they had "chanced it" and had to turn round and come back there would be a fair few on this forum who would have critisised that citing horse welfare............
		
Click to expand...

Surely they knew of all this before the crowdfunding finished?

Bottom line is people donated as they wanted to see the combo in Poland, they clearly had no intention of going else they would have surely set the countdown date sooner to allow time for all the relevant paperwork to be completed?


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## Clannad48 (13 August 2017)

ester said:



			I had issue with covert  

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Me too, as well as the punctuation or lack of it.


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## Velcrobum (13 August 2017)

sunleychops said:



			Surely they knew of all this before the crowdfunding finished?

Bottom line is people donated as they wanted to see the combo in Poland, they clearly had no intention of going else they would have surely set the countdown date sooner to allow time for all the relevant paperwork to be completed?
		
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Have you ever dealt with the FEI ?????????? or tried to.........


I personally think it is in Arts best interests not to go if the preparation has not been 100% We will see the combination in action at some point soon no doubt.


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## Supertrooper (13 August 2017)

I didn't donate because I wanted to see him in Poland, I donated because I really liked how Jonty was after his dressage test at Badminton. He was so genuinely overjoyed and proud of Art and I admired that. 

I think I own a hair but I'm pleased that my very small donation helped xx


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## ycbm (13 August 2017)

I feel sorry for anyone who donated if the good feeling they got has been a bit tarnished, or anyone who is now beginning to wonder if they fell for a con (I don't think they did).

I feel sorry for Jonty, for whom this is a royal anti climax and has the potential to make him look either very stupid or very bad. Short term, it's not a good outcome to the campaign. 

I'm still pleased for the horse.

 Anyone else think this method of fund raising for such an expensive horse is unlikely to work a second time?



PS reading between the lines of this press release, the current owners sound like they have been pretty difficult to deal with, and presumably the new co owners with the£150,000 and £100,000 shares are going to want the horse insured for vets fees, so there's a vetting still to go through yet?


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