# Low BE entries - what’s up with that?



## Bernster (9 September 2021)

Similar to an earlier thread discussing unaff v what does BE offer.  Bishop Burton and Dauntsey cancelled due to low entries. Low entries so far for Weston Lawns. And I saw post about an unaff at Cirencester also being low on numbers.  Is this unusual - is it due to COVID and people not being ready/fit, not being able to afford it…?

I’m not a BE eventer but noticed these posts on Facebook and it got me curious.


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## TPO (9 September 2021)

Following on from the unaff vs aff posts on the last thread I've noticed on Instagram that quite a few professional/big name eventers have been taking horses out unaff.

Cost? That you can get a run over an equally as good course that's well organised for a lot less outlay?


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## asmp (9 September 2021)

Bernster said:



			Similar to an earlier thread discussing unaff v what does BE offer.  Bishop Burton and Dauntsey cancelled due to low entries. Low entries so far for Weston Lawns. And I saw post about an unaff at Cirencester also being low on numbers.  Is this unusual - is it due to COVID and people not being ready/fit, not being able to afford it…?

I’m not a BE eventer but noticed these posts on Facebook and it got me curious.
		
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Yet Wellington ran for over 4 days recently as they had so many entries.


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## RachelFerd (9 September 2021)

I've blathered on about unaff/aff recently so won't do it again. But did note that Anvil Park were posting on their socials that they were experiencing low entries across BD and BS and unaffiliated shows, and that other centres also seemed to be facing low entries. So perhaps there is some degree of total oversaturation of the show calendar beyond just eventing and people simply aren't going out competing to justify the volume of opportunities out there?

Or perhaps the financial pinch of covid is actually finally making itself known? It has been a time of winners and losers - some people have padded their coffers and others have struggled. We've seen inflated horse prices, but it is only one side of the story and there are lots of people who have found their income reduced to varying degrees.


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## Lindylouanne (9 September 2021)

The UA event I am fence judging this weekend which combines a normal event and a Championships has over 500 entries. Same course BE mid October are struggling for entries.


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## Bernster (9 September 2021)

Hmm, yeah am trying to work out if it’s low across all, or just affiliated, or just BE. But this seems quite unusual which got me wondering if it was COVID and lockdown linked. That said there are loads of things on the first weekend of Oct for some reasons. Maybe some bad planning amongst everything else?!


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## Roxylola (9 September 2021)

Imo
Money is a big one - unaffiliated is just a bit cheaper. Last year the employed but furloughed got 80% pay and had nowhere to go and nothing to spend money on. This year there's been the chance of holidays, some may still not be back to full work levels, or may be redundant after last year.
Also, on the money thing, when an unaffiliated event cancelled I've had a full refund all in one go BE,  I got a bit, then a bit more, but not all. Tbh, I'd be happy if they'd kept the money to use against a later entry if it were fully transferable.
The ground, we seem to bounce from flood to drought and back. Now, I know they do lots to improve the ground in poor conditionsbut there is only so much to be done. Heavy rain increases the risk of needing to abandon. 
On a personal level I try not to run a lot on hard ground although he prefers too hard to too soft, but this then also has to be factored in to my training so I've eased off while the ground has been hard and I'm not pushing to look for my next event. I'm also quite proud he has a clear xc record so far and to keep it that way I'm not keen to run on soft going either - he doesn't trust it.
Also, not much ran at all last year, affiliated or otherwise. This year we've been able to do some arena eventing - over and done in under an hour, unaffiliated dressage etc all of which we can do a couple of goes at 2 levels and still be done in a morning or afternoon - much easier with childcare etc to sort out. And just easier to plan round


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## teapot (9 September 2021)

Think @Roxylola covers a lot of the economic side - this year compared to last year is almost a perfect storm of why people aren't spending on BE (and I don't think it's just limited to BE either...)


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## Fern007 (9 September 2021)

I'm wondering if it has to do with covid? Many reports say there will be lockdowns of sorts during October so I'm wondering if the event organisers are just too wary of putting events on and if people are running unaff whilst they can as stuff may be cancelled later in year?


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## ester (9 September 2021)

I understand not a good refund policy if you enter before the ballot either so it doesn't encourage earlier entries so then they end up cancelling instead.

I don't think it's covid induced, other than people being skint as it's been happening all summer. They're just not running events they don't have enough entries to not run at a loss.

Expensive and crap prizes compared to the unaffiliated that is now running
Some poor dates given so multiple events in one area (unaffiliated don't have their dates dictated by anyone)
- I think BE have dropped the ball a bit as the unaff stuff has been improving again over recent years.


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## McGrools (9 September 2021)

Hi, i personally dont like how far in advance the ballot date is. 4 weeks is a long time in the horse world to commit £100 plus. I’m about to enter weston park and even they are struggling for enough entries by ballot date which i assume is very unusual. I dont like feeling pressured to enter under the threat they will cancel if not enough entries received by ballot date. I’m not sure how quick the refund will take to arrive if they do cancel. 
Seems a bit stick rather than carrot to me. 
There does seem to be plenty of choice in the calendar this year which must be affecting BE.


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## GinaGeo (9 September 2021)

I think the Unaffiliated options being run at good ‘BE’ Venues have boomed since I last evented four years ago. 

With the Brigante Cup in the North and the Cotswold Cup in the South there are enough opportunities and good venues to have a season without joining BE.

I have a young horse who I am planning to Event. I loved Eventing my other horse at Grassroots BE. It felt special. We were aiming for the Grassroots Champs and we got to ride at venues that we wouldn’t otherwise get to ride at.

But now I can do unaffiliated at the same venues, run by the same people. For less Entry Fee. Better cancellations. No ballots. Enter later. And without paying out for a membership. I could have a full and varied season upto 100 without running BE. 

I think BE have missed a serious trick by not providing a current Grassroots champs. It’s a real shame. I love BE. But I won’t be rejoining yet.


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## ester (9 September 2021)

__ https://www.facebook.com/e.venting.co.uk/posts/4286406274741801


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## RachelFerd (9 September 2021)

McGrools said:



			Hi, i personally dont like how far in advance the ballot date is. 4 weeks is a long time in the horse world to commit £100 plus. I’m about to enter weston park and even they are struggling for enough entries by ballot date which i assume is very unusual. I dont like feeling pressured to enter under the threat they will cancel if not enough entries received by ballot date. I’m not sure how quick the refund will take to arrive if they do cancel.
Seems a bit stick rather than carrot to me.
There does seem to be plenty of choice in the calendar this year which must be affecting BE.
		
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Weston has struggled for entries several times because it is considered to be a 'tough' course, it scares people off...


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## ester (9 September 2021)

I guess with the cancellations that might have had a knock on effect to the tougher courses if people haven't had the runs they expected/hoped to?


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## McGrools (9 September 2021)

RachelFerd said:



			Weston has struggled for entries several times because it is considered to be a 'tough' course, it scares people off...
		
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Yes i suppose its an end of season, lets put the practice to the test, championship type if course. But fabulous venue. I havent been scince they started doing the 80’s and 90’s but it does feel like a special venue. And v local! So hopefully it will run 🤞


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## shortstuff99 (9 September 2021)

I don't think it just a BE problem. This years riding club championships, which ran last weekend, were down on entries. Our areas autumn area qualifiers are really low on entries, it is very weird. Then you get the odd show which is massively over subscribed.


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## ycbm (9 September 2021)

I honestly think part of it is the 5 horses recently killed in transit to events (2 separate accidents) .  I drove a horse down the M6 Smart 🙅 motorway a week ago and I was petrified the whole way.  
.


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## Bernster (10 September 2021)

Oh no I knew about the nick turner one but hadn’t realised there was another. it did make me think when I was out, I was extra careful about who was behind me and how fast they were going when we hit some traffic. I’ve also booked in for a service which the mechanic wasn’t able to do during the mot.


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## LEC (10 September 2021)

I think its a nuanced answer. On my E-V post there is a lot of different answers but I do think there are several reasons:
Over-saturation
Finances
Inertia
Timing with going back to offices/workload
Issues with BE.

The very good 'special' events have not struggled. The ones with a bit of a reputation have. I quite like Dauntsey so don't see why it has such a reputation but I guess I come from that background of hunting. Pontispool in May was ridiculous. A horrible track at 100, just completely overdone by Eric Winter. Great if you are a pro wanting to educate ready for Novice. Lousy if you are an amateur on a greenish horse. It put a lot of people off going back, they also have tonnes of unaff round the same tracks. I have found this year that its a tricky job to challenge and encourage at 100. Eric's tracks have been tough this year at 100. He seems to have a bee in his bonnet about getting people better prepared for the next level. Which is fine unless you are not looking to be at the next level!! I thought his 2* at Hartpury asked plenty of questions and it used to be considered a lot friendlier. Now I would say it was top end.


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## RachelFerd (10 September 2021)

LEC said:



			I think its a nuanced answer. On my E-V post there is a lot of different answers but I do think there are several reasons:
Over-saturation
Finances
Inertia
Timing with going back to offices/workload
Issues with BE.

The very good 'special' events have not struggled. The ones with a bit of a reputation have. I quite like Dauntsey so don't see why it has such a reputation but I guess I come from that background of hunting. Pontispool in May was ridiculous. A horrible track at 100, just completely overdone by Eric Winter. Great if you are a pro wanting to educate ready for Novice. Lousy if you are an amateur on a greenish horse. It put a lot of people off going back, they also have tonnes of unaff round the same tracks. I have found this year that its a tricky job to challenge and encourage at 100. Eric's tracks have been tough this year at 100. He seems to have a bee in his bonnet about getting people better prepared for the next level. Which is fine unless you are not looking to be at the next level!! I thought his 2* at Hartpury asked plenty of questions and it used to be considered a lot friendlier. Now I would say it was top end.
		
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I think at all the levels we could do with a tiered system that makes specific provision for allocating softer and tougher tracks at 90/100/Nov, poss Int too (although that's beyond my lived experience!) with MER requirements based on completing the tougher tracks in order to move up. It is the perennial reason why Aston is so popular - you know that the grassroots and nov and int tracks will be at the softer end of the spectrum, and have alternatives where required. But that isn't adequate prep to move up.

Of course, the problem with doing this is that people will bleat on about the system being more complicated - but i'd say it is about being more transparent whilst ensuring that the standards of XC don't drop. overall. And no different to BD qualifications being based around getting certain percentages in the Q-demarcated 'harder' tests at each level.

I think there's also a bit of a general disconnect between the 'we just want to have a nice time and enjoy our horses' and 'we want to be competitive and improve' crowds - BE could cater to both, but needs to tailor its offering. Although there's a part of me that thinks the 'we just want to have a nice time' crowd, might be better off just enjoying fun rides and training and not bothering with competition (which, by its nature, is competitive)

Edited to add - I saw the course photos of Hartpury and thought thank god i hadn't entered it - looked much tougher by a country mile than some of the 2* shorts i've done...


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## LEC (10 September 2021)

And this is another issue with BE there are 5 tiers as I see it:
Pros - aim 4/5*
Juniors/Young Riders - out at 2/3* regularly 
Ambitious amateurs - aim 2/3* have ridden at Novice. 
Competitive amateurs - very competent and competitive at 90- 100, might do a novice. 
Fun Amateurs - happy just to be competing and enjoy the journey at 80-100. 100 is top of what they want to do. 

These are very different groups in ability, mindset, and attitudes to training. Also in horsepower. BS gets away with it just about and dressage just has more championships to hit the mark. BE is probably a bit behind the curve and doesn’t quite know how to deal with them all. It’s getting better but some of their offerings like the 80/90 teams haven’t been done quite right IMO and they should look at the inter counties system of BD which a few of my friends have done and absolutely LOVE.


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## Spot_On03 (10 September 2021)

I think across the board everywhere seems to be low entries. Even the unaffiliated things round my way all have low attendance from what's been posted on social media.

Work, finances, time of year all have an impact. Also noticed cost of entry seems to be creeping up too. When you couple that with possible overnight accommodation for horse (and maybe rider) too, fuel, food quite an expense. Always find end of summer things go quiet as many families are finding that work/school/life balance again.


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## milliepops (10 September 2021)

LEC said:



			And this is another issue with BE there are 5 tiers as I see it:
Pros - aim 4/5*
Juniors/Young Riders - out at 2/3* regularly
Ambitious amateurs - aim 2/3* have ridden at Novice.
Competitive amateurs - very competent and competitive at 90- 100, might do a novice.
Fun Amateurs - happy just to be competing and enjoy the journey at 80-100. 100 is top of what they want to do.

These are very different groups in ability, mindset, and attitudes to training. Also in horsepower. BS gets away with it just about and dressage just has more championships to hit the mark. BE is probably a bit behind the curve and doesn’t quite know how to deal with them all. It’s getting better but some of their offerings like the 80/90 teams haven’t been done quite right IMO and they should look at the inter counties system of BD which a few of my friends have done and absolutely LOVE.
		
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Inter counties is only for England I think, there isn't a corresponding one in Wales, not sure about Scotland. but agree with the theory and Wales sends a few teams to the Home International for BD each year which is similar. There are lots of opportunities for fun ,competitive and ambitious amateurs BD, it's a big part of the appeal I think.


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## ester (10 September 2021)

Less so BS but (as someone who would def only ever be a fun amateur in anything, who is there to have a nice day over and above anything else ) BD and BE wise you can also be there to improve on your last scores, so you can compete with yourself even if you are totally uncompetitive with the rest of the field.


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## little_critter (10 September 2021)

Ref oversaturation, I reckon there’s space for some events to branch out and do smaller courses. I’d like to have a go at my first HT (with current horse) but everything seems to start at 80cm. I want a nice inviting 60-70cm to try.


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## Kat (11 September 2021)

little_critter said:



			Ref oversaturation, I reckon there’s space for some events to branch out and do smaller courses. I’d like to have a go at my first HT (with current horse) but everything seems to start at 80cm. I want a nice inviting 60-70cm to try.
		
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Me too


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## Bob notacob (11 September 2021)

I come across disechanted riders regularly. They put in all the effort and training but their wonderhorse (absolutely blinding xc and sj but was born with four left hooves when it comes to dressage. You kind of loose heart when you see a dressae3 horse which can just about make it round a 100 course beats your game jump anything horse.


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## dixie (11 September 2021)

little_critter said:



			Ref oversaturation, I reckon there’s space for some events to branch out and do smaller courses. I’d like to have a go at my first HT (with current horse) but everything seems to start at 80cm. I want a nice inviting 60-70cm to try.
		
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there’s a good point to this.   Bicton used to have a tiny course and it was hired all the time. Now there’s nothing below 90 and I’m not sure you can hire it anymore.  
   It filters through up the amateur levels as if there’s nowhere to start and get the xc bug, then it’s difficult to progress and unlikely to join BE.


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## Roxylola (11 September 2021)

Personally I think that's where unaffiliated could do better, the unaffiliated are in direct competition with BE in a lot of cases. With classes that are 80+ or doing lower rounds with workers fences. I think there's a market for 50/60/70 solid courses as well. Eland ran a 50 ode at the end of August so there is a market for it for sure.
I find it difficult as Charlie has a trailer and I've never towed (got hgv license though) so I'm reliant on my owner who's a single mum to 3. For us the focus tends to be training and things that don't require all day attendance because honestly it's boring for the kids, they like horses but it's not their everything. So a one day takes a lot of planning for childcare etc. While I don't expect them to provide a creche, and I certainly don't want agricultural show levels of goings on it might be worth investigating if there would be a desire for some more child friendly "things" in the trade stands. The fact there was a little playground at cholmondeley made it a huge hit for us but that was just lucky coincidence


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## Kat (11 September 2021)

Eland's 50 ode is really popular, I wish they would add a 60. I feel a bit shit entering a 50 against kids barely off the lead rein but the 70 has a couple of fences that have quite a big brush top and I'm a wuss! 

I like a pick a height class, a couple of years ago a venue near me did a pick a height hunter trial (alongside the 60 and 80 class) it was brilliant and really popular. It was good to be able to jump the simple fences from the bigger course but swap to the smaller ones for tricky combinations or if you had a stop. 

A small riding club here do clear round training days where you can enter right up to the night before and pick which fences you jump as you go around. You can jump any height, miss a fence or pop one a couple of times. Really popular and the fences range from about 50cm upto about 95cm. 

For me being able to enter close to the actual date is important, I like to be able to decide when I know how the ground is looking and how my horse is feeling.


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## Bernster (11 September 2021)

Around the south east there are a few really popular smaller xc and odes at 50 and 60.  I realise that for a lot of people that’s a tiny height unless you’re on a lead rein, but it works for me. Am doing a 60 have a go xc tmrw. im hoping it will seem very small but it’s the first outing with Bertie so I’d like to reduce the things I get to stress about!


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## LEC (11 September 2021)

See this might be a very unpopular view but I have a real issue with 50cm and 60cm xc. They are incredibly difficult to build for and complex unless done in one field for small kids on ponies who are just off the lead rein. I have actually run some 50/60cm ODE and they are not terribly well supported vs 80/90cm. I am surprised BRC doesn’t do 70cm but they are jam packed at champs so doesn’t surprise me either. 
Cotswold cup does a few 70cm now and the courses were lovely and very encouraging. I personally think this is what people should be aiming for.


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## L&M (11 September 2021)

Weston Park just advertised on fb, saying they will be pulling their Oct event if no more entries, what a shame and has always been so popular up until now......


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## LEC (11 September 2021)

Bob notacob said:



			I come across disechanted riders regularly. They put in all the effort and training but their wonderhorse (absolutely blinding xc and sj but was born with four left hooves when it comes to dressage. You kind of loose heart when you see a dressae3 horse which can just about make it round a 100 course beats your game jump anything horse.
		
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so you have two options - train better or move up a level. On the whole mine are very mediocre doing dressage so I don’t bother aiming for stuff like Badminton GR as accept they won’t get anywhere so tend to educate and move them up a level. I have one at moment who has scored 27, 25 and 26 in last 3 outings. It’s not a special horse in the slightest. It’s a heavy lump but she gives away absolutely no marks as so consistent and correct. She is so far from a dressage horse. Her sister has complete charisma and is a bloody useless xc horse even naughty and bucking 5 times will score a 30 which is ridiculous. She also won’t go very far. Novice if I work hard and get her to stop being so suspicious.


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## Bob notacob (11 September 2021)

LEC said:



			so you have two options - train better or move up a level. On the whole mine are very mediocre doing dressage so I don’t bother aiming for stuff like Badminton GR as accept they won’t get anywhere so tend to educate and move them up a level. I have one at moment who has scored 27, 25 and 26 in last 3 outings. It’s not a special horse in the slightest. It’s a heavy lump but she gives away absolutely no marks as so consistent and correct. She is so far from a dressage horse. Her sister has complete charisma and is a bloody useless xc horse even naughty and bucking 5 times will score a 30 which is ridiculous. She also won’t go very far. Novice if I work hard and get her to stop being so suspicious.
		
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In a cold clinical way you are correct .However what gets riders to enter and what disenchants riders are entirely another matter. I think grass roots has been the best thing for eventing since sliced bread. However the distance one might have to travel to a "regional" is ridiculous . It nearly put off one of my disenchated crew .Fortunately she did go and now has her second entry for grass roots having lost last years entry (a bitter blow as the pony isnt gettin any yougner). I will get more satisfaction wathching that pony tackle the 100 than any of the stars in the main event.


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## Fools Motto (11 September 2021)

I haven't competed in years, but helped a friend enter a hunter trial... the entry fee has put me right off. What I used to pay BE years ago is now the same for the unaffiliated ht! I gave up BE because of the cost....


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## RachelFerd (12 September 2021)

LEC said:



			See this might be a very unpopular view but I have a real issue with 50cm and 60cm xc. They are incredibly difficult to build for and complex unless done in one field for small kids on ponies who are just off the lead rein. I have actually run some 50/60cm ODE and they are not terribly well supported vs 80/90cm. I am surprised BRC doesn’t do 70cm but they are jam packed at champs so doesn’t surprise me either.
Cotswold cup does a few 70cm now and the courses were lovely and very encouraging. I personally think this is what people should be aiming for.
		
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Ditto - 50/60 courses being tripped over, dangerously quick, by large horses, always worries me. 70cm really is an adequate starting height for anything other than kids and ponies. Shoot me down, but I'm not sure why anyone wants to compete at 50/60 rather than just continue to train. 

Solution for me is probably 70/80/90 BE 'club' levels with much cheaper membership, integrated training offerings and a clear stepping stone up to the 'proper' grassroots and then onwards to the Novice+ stuff beyond that - so three tiers, with increasing costs. Because from Novice upwards you're generally a total addict and will willingly pay anything (at least, I think that's where my head is at!!)


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## little_critter (12 September 2021)

I’m not surprised a 50/60 ODE isn’t well supported, but a 50/60 HT is just what I’d be looking for. Nothing technical, just a friendly selection of logs and roll tops, just so you have an opportunity to string a course together rather than the ‘bitty’ training you get when you go to an xc training venue.


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## LEC (12 September 2021)

RachelFerd said:



			Ditto - 50/60 courses being tripped over, dangerously quick, by large horses, always worries me. 70cm really is an adequate starting height for anything other than kids and ponies. Shoot me down, but I'm not sure why anyone wants to compete at 50/60 rather than just continue to train.

Solution for me is probably 70/80/90 BE 'club' levels with much cheaper membership, integrated training offerings and a clear stepping stone up to the 'proper' grassroots and then onwards to the Novice+ stuff beyond that - so three tiers, with increasing costs. Because from Novice upwards you're generally a total addict and will willingly pay anything (at least, I think that's where my head is at!!)
		
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I was told the other day they are going to reduce BE GR membership costs. It will annoy me a lot if I move the horse to novice and get taxed for it.

On an aside I was at Cotswold Cup yesterday and winners of 80/90/100 got £1k cash plus juniors are separate. Amazing really. The 80 was won by a 5* eventer but the rules allow it and with that kind of cash and a chance to train with Harry Meade…


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## Bernster (12 September 2021)

As someone who does 60s, I’m not sure why it should bother anyone else what height I’m doing. Great for those who do bigger heights, good for them, but I don’t do those and I’m enjoying myself at the lower heights. Maybe I will go up in height in time but that’s my choice.  I’m happy there are events that cater for a wide range.


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## RachelFerd (12 September 2021)

LEC said:



			I was told the other day they are going to reduce BE GR membership costs. It will annoy me a lot if I move the horse to novice and get taxed for it.

On an aside I was at Cotswold Cup yesterday and winners of 80/90/100 got £1k cash plus juniors are separate. Amazing really. The 80 was won by a 5* eventer but the rules allow it and with that kind of cash and a chance to train with Harry Meade…
		
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I honestly don't mind being taxed for.competing at the "higher" levels - I fully understand the courses I want to jump are longer, take more construction and are not supported by the same volumes of competitors. And there's no alternative cheaper option anyway. 

The Cotswold Cup money just seems like serious errors have been made in not attracting that sponsorship into the core sport. Also, quite frankly laughable that a 5* rider is winning the 80. At BE they would have to ride HC.  I still don't believe there is any justifiable place for unaffiliated eventing - that's not me slating people who choose to do it, because it absolutely makes financial sense. It just doesn't make sense to me from a 'for the good of the sport'/'for the good of the horse' perspective... (I know my view is unpopular etc etc etc)


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## Ambers Echo (13 September 2021)

I agree with you RF. I think unaffiliated eventing over BE courses is killing off BE. A lot of my friends have switched to unaff and are competing for the Brigante cup. Pretty much the only ones I personally know still out BE are the kids doing the U18s. There was a discussion about this at a recent training camp and I was raising the risks set out in your previous post on this but I was a lone voice . The overwhelming perception was that the Unaff comps at BE events ‘proved’ that BE was a complete rip off and overpriced as ‘if they can run it so cheap unaff then clearly the BE prices are ridiculous’ not recognising that the UA comps are benefitting from the costs BE have already absorbed.

I don’t know what the answer is but running 2 identical comps one day after the other, with day 1 prices being necessary for day 2 to safely happen, but with day 2 being half the price of Day 1 is not it!


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## RachelFerd (13 September 2021)

Ambers Echo said:



			I agree with you RF. I think unaffiliated eventing over BE courses is killing off BE. A lot of my friends have switched to unaff and are competing for the Brigante cup. Pretty much the only ones I personally know still out BE are the kids doing the U18s. There was a discussion about this at a recent training camp and I was raising the risks set out in your previous post on this but I was a lone voice . The overwhelming perception was that the Unaff comps at BE events ‘proved’ that BE was a complete rip off and overpriced as ‘if they can run it so cheap unaff then clearly the BE prices are ridiculous’ not recognising that the UA comps are benefitting from the costs BE have already absorbed.

I don’t know what the answer is but running 2 identical comps one day after the other, with day 1 prices being necessary for day 2 to safely happen, but with day 2 being half the price of Day 1 is not it!
		
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The organisers of Frickley wanted to bring the second day (the Brigante final) fully under the umbrella of BE, to try and bring people into affiliated sport. BE didn't approve them to do this - which I personally think is a shame although i also get some of the reasoning. I think the organisers of the Brigante cup did actually have an ambition to make it a series that underpinned a drive to get people into affiliated sport. But the Cotswold Cup seems to be a slightly more disruptive and separate thing. I could be wrong, but it is the vibe I get from the mega prize money and free-for-all rules.

I am pretty certain that Helen is ready to tackle the low participation head on. It is going to require quite a shake up and i'm sure will upset a few people in the process. Part of the role of a National Governing Body is to increase the accessibility and inclusivity of sport - so it really *is* on BE to bring people into the fold and not allow a (at surface level) cheaper and easier option to exist, disconnected but in parallel.


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## ycbm (13 September 2021)

Ambers Echo said:



			I think unaffiliated eventing over BE courses is killing off BE.
		
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They always knew it would,  that's why back when I started no unaffiliated event could be run over a BE course.   But then they started chasing venues for lower heights for the membership revenues it would bring,  first PN/BE100, then BE90, Now BE 80, and this muddle is where we end up.  
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## Roxylola (13 September 2021)

RachelFerd said:



			The organisers of Frickley wanted to bring the second day (the Brigante final) fully under the umbrella of BE, to try and bring people into affiliated sport. BE didn't approve them to do this - which I personally think is a shame although i also get some of the reasoning. I think the organisers of the Brigante cup did actually have an ambition to make it a series that underpinned a drive to get people into affiliated sport. But the Cotswold Cup seems to be a slightly more disruptive and separate thing. I could be wrong, but it is the vibe I get from the mega prize money and free-for-all rules.

I am pretty certain that Helen is ready to tackle the low participation head on. It is going to require quite a shake up and i'm sure will upset a few people in the process. Part of the role of a National Governing Body is to increase the accessibility and inclusivity of sport - so it really *is* on BE to bring people into the fold and not allow a (at surface level) cheaper and easier option to exist, disconnected but in parallel.
		
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The not allowing the brigante to be brought in to the BE highlights an attitude for me that BE feel they are untouchable and that people will cough up a lot of money just because its BE. 
I'm conflicted personally because I sort of like the whole having an official record thing (even if mine is made up of 2 clear but unplaced BE events). However, I equally don't feel like I'm "really" eventing yet. My goal for now is a 100 eventually - which was prenovice in the days I started out. When I get there maybe I'll feel like an eventer. 
Tbh, I'd not object to good club stuff with some sort "affiliated" step up towards BE, maybe a bit like trailblazers. But it would have to be good, proper length solid fences etc. I'd be happy to pay more in membership for lower entry fees as well.


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## TPO (13 September 2021)

So isthe problem not BE rather than the people spending their money on unaff?

There's been discussions about how BE is run since this forum started before 90s/intros I think and definitely before 80s.

Doesn't BRC have to shoulder some responsibility too? The infrastructure for developing and training to get people ready for affiliated doesn't appear to be there [in every club]. I remember the dark old days when to get onto a team was a hard earned honour but now RCs seems to scrape to make a team and if you want to take part regardless of ability then you get a spot. 

Thats obviously a numbers issue too so why aren't people attracted to RC?

Again harking back to days of yonder but all the older people (friends of my mum) who affiliated were all well established riders who did all the training and got experience RC/HT so we're more than ready to go out at novice. Now "the masses" appear to demand that everything is made easier because its only fair that they are catered to and should have the option.

#bekind and "people should be supportive" seems to be replacing common sense & straight talking. The have a go attitude seems to have replaced the need for serious homework to be done before hand.

Competing affiliated was something to be earned almost and now it's a given as most horses can get around an 80/90. I've seen comments on FB from people wanting BE to introduce even smaller courses too. 

That then appears to result in what is often seen at lower level BE; unfit horses, unfit riders, horse out of control, riders who can't stay with their horses over a fence, people jumping wildly out of any stride and having no influence over their horse/gait/stride/direction. Blair aside I haven't been at a BE event in over 3yrs but all that was a common sight and I still see it when people post their pictures and videos to the Internet. 

Surely if BE want to eradicate/reduce the need for unaff then they need to work alongside BRC to build a training and development pathway and they have to be stricter regarding unfit (fitness and ability) pairings on the day.


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## RachelFerd (13 September 2021)

Roxylola said:



			The not allowing the brigante to be brought in to the BE highlights an attitude for me that BE feel they are untouchable and that people will cough up a lot of money just because its BE.
I'm conflicted personally because I sort of like the whole having an official record thing (even if mine is made up of 2 clear but unplaced BE events). However, I equally don't feel like I'm "really" eventing yet. My goal for now is a 100 eventually - which was prenovice in the days I started out. When I get there maybe I'll feel like an eventer.
Tbh, I'd not object to good club stuff with some sort "affiliated" step up towards BE, maybe a bit like trailblazers. But it would have to be good, proper length solid fences etc. I'd be happy to pay more in membership for lower entry fees as well.
		
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I think the logic around not allowing it was about upsetting BE members who would feel like the unaff Brigante lot were getting something for nothing. Which they kind of would have been, but I do think it would have shown a better unified picture to bring them together.

I think having an affiliated system which runs all the way from the smallest to the largest events and has a logical progression system throughout it, is the most 'inclusive' a sport can be, and also ensures that you are "really" eventing, even if it is at the starting rungs of that ladder rather than the top rungs. Because you can see the rungs above you and understand the process of how you would get there.


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## milliepops (13 September 2021)

The BRC thing is a tricky one, is it the chicken or the egg that has made those dwindle in disciplines like eventing...? I can't see how they can rebuild tbh, they need the membership for the ££, the demand and the volunteers, but without the offering already available it's not an attractive prospect. I rejoined a local RC a couple of years ago but there is nothing for me so I let it lapse again. it used to be the THING that everyone did when I was younger. and there was a kudos to affiliated sport because it was different to what unaff had to offer. (and was simply harder so you had to prove your ability really in order to do it)


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## RachelFerd (13 September 2021)

TPO said:



			So isthe problem not BE rather than the people spending their money on unaff?

There's been discussions about how BE is run since this forum started before 90s/intros I think and definitely before 80s.

Doesn't BRC have to shoulder some responsibility too? The infrastructure for developing and training to get people ready for affiliated doesn't appear to be there [in every club]. I remember the dark old days when to get onto a team was a hard earned honour but now RCs seems to scrape to make a team and if you want to take part regardless of ability then you get a spot.

Thats obviously a numbers issue too so why aren't people attracted to RC?

Again harking back to days of yonder but all the older people (friends of my mum) who affiliated were all well established riders who did all the training and got experience RC/HT so we're more than ready to go out at novice. Now "the masses" appear to demand that everything is made easier because its only fair that they are catered to and should have the option.

#bekind and "people should be supportive" seems to be replacing common sense & straight talking. The have a go attitude seems to have replaced the need for serious homework to be done before hand.

Competing affiliated was something to be earned almost and now it's a given as most horses can get around an 80/90. I've seen comments on FB from people wanting BE to introduce even smaller courses too.

That then appears to result in what is often seen at lower level BE; unfit horses, unfit riders, horse out of control, riders who can't stay with their horses over a fence, people jumping wildly out of any stride and having no influence over their horse/gait/stride/direction. Blair aside I haven't been at a BE event in over 3yrs but all that was a common sight and I still see it when people post their pictures and videos to the Internet.

Surely if BE want to eradicate/reduce the need for unaff then they need to work alongside BRC to build a training and development pathway and they have to be stricter regarding unfit (fitness and ability) pairings on the day.
		
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I completely agree with you TPO on most points - I think there has to be some kind of integrated training offering that runs alongside starting out a competition. And that used to be delivered by PC and RC, but does seem to have faded away in many places. BE did start to step into the training space, but then stepped back out of it - which was a shame, I actually really enjoyed the group training sessions that were run around the East of England when I was there. 

I don't agree that 'competing affiliated' is what needs to be earned - I think competing FULL STOP is what needs to be earned. Don't go out competing without doing the neccessary training and preparation. Affiliated, unaffiliated, whatever, wherever. 

I think this is where there's a rock/hard-place situation - lots of people saying they don't like BE because they don't like "some stuck up steward telling them that they were riding dangerously" or that they don't like the continued performance requirements and think they have a right to enter/do whatever they like. But a responsible NGB can't just let people be dangerous and compromise welfare of horses. I would personally like to see a stricter take on competence and welfare, but I know it wouldn't be popular.


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## TPO (13 September 2021)

RachelFerd said:



			I don't agree that 'competing affiliated' is what needs to be earned - I think competing FULL STOP is what needs to be earned. Don't go out competing without doing the neccessary training and preparation. Affiliated, unaffiliated, whatever, wherever.
		
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Ah yes, I agree. It blows my, admittedly small, mind that people will happily spend £££ to go BE when clearly it would have been better invested in training.

It was always drilled into me to be training a level above at home to the one that you are competing at. That really doesn't seem to be the case for a lot of pairings and not just BE/xc. 

To an outsider there seems to be a rush to get out competing over everything else.


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## shortstuff99 (13 September 2021)

A lot of the centres run unaffiliated to be able to fund the affiliated. BE makes venues pay for the upkeep of the courses etc., they can't make enough money just doing that via BE competitions, they have to run unaffiliated to make up the money.


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## Roxylola (13 September 2021)

I think perhaps all affiliated organisations in the UK at least could potentially offer better and more accredited training. I'm incredibly lucky to have access to some awesome facilities within a couple of hours drive and follow at least a couple of trainers who offer clinics at those facilities. But approaching them for the first time is hard. If I could have subscribed to BE and got access to clinics and coaches who are give training dates and info I'd 100% have been happy to pay a full membership rate for that alone. Especially if you can then book with that person regularly (as far as time money etc allows). I have one coach I see maybe 6 times a year, but its enough that I can ask for and trust her opinion about competing.


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## RachelFerd (13 September 2021)

shortstuff99 said:



			A lot of the centres run unaffiliated to be able to fund the affiliated. BE makes venues pay for the upkeep of the courses etc., they can't make enough money just doing that via BE competitions, they have to run unaffiliated to make up the money.
		
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I see this point being made a lot. But i'm not so sure that the only solution is running identikit unaffiliated versions of affiliated events. I'm pretty sure that money could also be made from offering clear round jumping, course hire, training events, clinics etc. I know it is trickier at the sites which are one-offs and not an equestrian centre year-round.


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## shortstuff99 (13 September 2021)

RachelFerd said:



			I see this point being made a lot. But i'm not so sure that the only solution is running identikit unaffiliated versions of affiliated events. I'm pretty sure that money could also be made from offering clear round jumping, course hire, training events, clinics etc. I know it is trickier at the sites which are one-offs and not an equestrian centre year-round.
		
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Not really, most of those events barely cover the cost of running them. You need events where you're going to get a few hundred entries, that only really works at eventing or other big shows. Trying to cover costs now is almost impossible. I have had to double entry fees for my hunter trial and hope I get at least 100 entries or I can't even run. I know people are going to complain at the price and if they do well I can't run anymore.


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## RachelFerd (13 September 2021)

shortstuff99 said:



			Not really, most of those events barely cover the cost of running them. You need events where you're going to get a few hundred entries, that only really works at eventing or other big shows. Trying to cover costs now is almost impossible. I have had to double entry fees for my hunter trial and hope I get at least 100 entries or I can't even run. I know people are going to complain at the price and if they do well I can't run anymore.
		
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Whenever i'm at Somerford I marvel at how effectively they've monetised the entire site. They rarely run any competitions, because clearly there is far more income to be made from well prepared and thought out training opportunities than there are from running comps.


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## shortstuff99 (13 September 2021)

RachelFerd said:



			Whenever i'm at Somerford I marvel at how effectively they've monetised the entire site. They rarely run any competitions, because clearly there is far more income to be made from well prepared and thought out training opportunities than there are from running comps.
		
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They also have lots of other things that fund Somerford not just training.


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## RachelFerd (13 September 2021)

shortstuff99 said:



			They also have lots of other things that fund Somerford not just training.
		
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Yes - they've monetised every last corner. I'm there nearly once a week at the moment for various things - they get lots of my money one way or another!


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## shortstuff99 (13 September 2021)

RachelFerd said:



			Yes - they've monetised every last corner. I'm there nearly once a week at the moment for various things - they get lots of my money one way or another!
		
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Unfortunately that is just not possible in a lot of places, and I think if BE venues are not allowed to run unaffiliated then many will close and there will be even less BE.


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## coblets (13 September 2021)

Anyone else noticing an increase of people who affiliate sticking to BS rather than BE? Quite a few friends stopped BE due to worries about injuries and the cost, and now just showjump.


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## Ambers Echo (13 September 2021)

I have lots of conflicted thoughts. Someone posted the ‘types’ of competitors with fun amateurs first in the last. But there is another rung - have a go competitors.  Eland have always run unaff comps and some of these are great - 50-80 HTs or ODEs. You can carry on after elimination. You can skip a fence. You can qualify for finals. Good rosettes and prizes and an ‘event’ feel. Lots of people enjoy a competition even at lower levels. These attract ‘have a go’ people whose horses are not in a structured training/strengthening  programme to make sure they are fit and robust enough to cope. Which is fine up to 80ish but they run up to 100 with the broken bridge which is a huge drop onto fairly hard ground. They also had a big box fence uphill towards the end of the course. I saw far too many unfit horses there.

I don’t know what the answer is. I’m glad it’s not up to me to sort out!


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## DabDab (13 September 2021)

The thing is that BE wouldn't be competing with UA events if they had stuck at Novice (or even pre-novice) lowest heights. UA events run over the same tracks as affiliated in large part because BE moved into the unaffiliated 'space' to try to get a bit of the money being spent on them. Short term it worked for them, longer term not so much.

Once you are in the market that caters for the low to middling aspiration amateur then you have to try and cater for them. BE isn't terribly good at this and arguably don't really want to be (except for financial reasons). So maybe they should back out and stick the starting height for BE back up and make it a bit more aspirational again. As mentioned up thread, they would probably be better trying to make up the grassroots money by providing much improved training opportunities


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## Ambers Echo (13 September 2021)

They could stop U/A events at 80. If they had an 80 limit on all UA events run over BE tracks  they could still keep the 80T sections for those planning to step up with the coaches helping with advice on the day and training events. While those happy to stop at 80 stay unaff


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## ester (13 September 2021)

In my head they used to have similar (like BSJA not allowing judges to also judge unaff) but the competition commission ruled against it?


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## spacefaer (13 September 2021)

When I started eventing, there was nothing below Novice. 
You belonged to the Pony Club and then a Riding Club for both training and experience. 
XC courses were mainly 2'6-2'9 (novice) or 3'-3'3 (open) 
Anyone who wanted to jump lower xc courses didn't compete, or would do the clear round or minimus course. 
Those who competed BE weren't particularly welcomed back at Riding club - I offered to be available for RC teams and it was made perfectly clear that they'd rather not send a team than take up my offer. 
I think BE prostituted itself at the lower levels to get the money but has no real interest in the smaller tracks. There is no interest in the "happy amateur" other than as a source of funds. 
In an ideal world, as said above, they should redefine themselves as an aspirational sport and people should have to work their way up to be competent enough to compete. However, that's not going to happen as costs of running events seem to be stuck in an upwards spiral and the lower levels of membership are used to fund the higher. 

If I was still competing, I wouldn't be entering anything just at the moment with the state of the ground. It's hard enough to train on, let alone run xc on. 

I competed with an aim  - all my horses had a career path. I never took a horse out that I didn't feel could be competitive on the day, and I genuinely don't understand why anyone would want to spend 100s of pounds with the vague hope of completing. Go home, spend the money on training and come back when you stand a chance of a decent dressage and a double clear ,😄


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## spacefaer (13 September 2021)

So in answer to the original question - I'd put it down to three current factors 
1. lack of time - people have gone back to work
2. money - no furlough, back at work, able to take holidays again 
3. The ground - it's currently like concrete with no sign of any significant change 

I've also seen a lower take up of training places in my local riding clubs so I guess it's an issue across the board.


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## RachelFerd (13 September 2021)

DabDab said:



			The thing is that BE wouldn't be competing with UA events if they had stuck at Novice (or even pre-novice) lowest heights. UA events run over the same tracks as affiliated in large part because BE moved into the unaffiliated 'space' to try to get a bit of the money being spent on them. Short term it worked for them, longer term not so much.

Once you are in the market that caters for the low to middling aspiration amateur then you have to try and cater for them. BE isn't terribly good at this and arguably don't really want to be (except for financial reasons). So maybe they should back out and stick the starting height for BE back up and make it a bit more aspirational again. As mentioned up thread, they would probably be better trying to make up the grassroots money by providing much improved training opportunities
		
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The problem, for me, with just catering for the novice+ audience, is that you have then potentially removed the stepping stones required for people to progress from the lower levels into the upper levels. If the unregulated (term i prefer to unaffiliated, because it is a bit more descriptive!) sport doesn't adapt to the same rule changes and overarching developments that the upper level sport does, it gets harder and harder for people to move across. That is not a good thing for the longevity of the sport. You only fix this by ensuring that PC and RC step into that space more effectively - but it seems like they've already been eroded from where they were, and don't have the infrastructure to be able to do it in the short term. 

@Ambers Echo I am also conflicted, as i love to see people having fun with their horses and enjoying them at whatever level. But then, I go to those types of events and can feel pretty demoralised by what i see. I noted that Kelsall have put a 'competency evidence' request on entries for under 11s for their winter arena eventing this year - I guess they've had some bad experiences with people having a go (Which was always the danger when they dropped their lowest height down to 70cm rather than 80cm).


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## teapot (13 September 2021)

Helen West was on the Cornbury commentary and talked about voice of the membership, wants to listen but as long as it's constructive. 

Did anyone watch the Lucinda Green, Eric Winter, Helen West zoom chat? That was great as it covered the whole who do you cater for the pros and those who want to go for a xc pottle, never rising up the levels.


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## milliepops (13 September 2021)

Roxylola said:



			I think perhaps all affiliated organisations in the UK at least could potentially offer better and more accredited training. I'm incredibly lucky to have access to some awesome facilities within a couple of hours drive and follow at least a couple of trainers who offer clinics at those facilities. But approaching them for the first time is hard. If I could have subscribed to BE and got access to clinics and coaches who are give training dates and info I'd 100% have been happy to pay a full membership rate for that alone. Especially if you can then book with that person regularly (as far as time money etc allows). I have one coach I see maybe 6 times a year, but its enough that I can ask for and trust her opinion about competing.
		
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this is something I do think BD has got broadly right, the regions offer lots of varied training (I feel quite fortunate as I straddle 3 of them so have loads of choice if I want it).  much is subsidised. 
The only thing I find irksome is their insistence on UKCC which rules out loads of extremely qualified people. 



Ambers Echo said:



			I have lots of conflicted thoughts. Someone posted the ‘types’ of competitors with fun amateurs first in the last. But there is another rung - have a go competitors.  Eland have always run unaff comps and some of these are great - 50-80 HTs or ODEs. *You can carry on after elimination. You can skip a fence. You can qualify for finals. Good rosettes and prizes and an ‘event’ feel. Lots of people enjoy a competition even at lower levels*. These attract ‘have a go’ people whose horses are not in a structured training/strengthening  programme to make sure they are fit and robust enough to cope. Which is fine up to 80ish but they run up to 100 with the broken bridge which is a huge drop onto fairly hard ground. They also had a big box fence uphill towards the end of the course. I saw far too many unfit horses there.
		
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i think the "problem" with this, for me anyway, is that *this* is not a competition. 
Being able to skip a fence makes it training. IMO. This is possibly part of the reason why there ends up being a disconnect between bumbling along at the lowest level and then having a huge gulf to cross where you learn how to prepare and train properly because even a BE80 or 90 requires a bit more in the way of focus and competence to avoid running into problems.  Why aren't those folk getting that experience in a clinic environment and then competing when they can get round reliably?


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## ester (13 September 2021)

Swalcliffe just put up their total entries the day before ballot, it's interesting to see the current breakdown as haven't seen that with the others. There's only 5 in the 80. 

Sat
100-29
100U18-3
80-5
90U18-1
Nov -17
ON-19

Sun
100-28
100op-11
Nov-39
90-28


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## Ambers Echo (13 September 2021)

milliepops said:



			i think the "problem" with this, for me anyway, is that *this* is not a competition.
Being able to skip a fence makes it training. IMO. This is possibly part of the reason why there ends up being a disconnect between bumbling along at the lowest level and then having a huge gulf to cross where you learn how to prepare and train properly because even a BE80 or 90 requires a bit more in the way of focus and competence to avoid running into problems.  Why aren't those folk getting that experience in a clinic environment and then competing when they can get round reliably?
		
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When the kids were starting out, they did the Eland Hunter Trials at 70cm. No clinic sends you round 20 fences nonstop. You need a fence judge at every fence for that. In clinics you can never be out of sight of the instructor. So although they had been to clinics at Eland and elsewhere and were capable of getting round in theory, the experience of warming up then going to the start box by yourself and setting off round the whole track nonstop was totally different to anything you can do in training. Some flew round and were placed. Great. But others (like Katie on her little Section C) had a nightmare at fence 3 and she was eliminated there. But rather than just go home she was allowed to carry on and jumped the rest fine which was very educational for both her and the pony. I can't see a problem with allowing that.


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## milliepops (13 September 2021)

I can understand why it's useful and why people like it, don't get me wrong.
I just think it's like entering a prelim dressage test and then not cantering. you haven't met the requirements of *competition*.

obviously your children were competent enough to get round with one problem, but what happens if the rider has problems everywhere and is allowed to continue and then there's an accident? there are reasons why you get eliminated in most competition if you have too many mistakes, and one is to save your neck!  

I think dropping any sort of rules like that and still calling it competition just sets expectations incorrectly. the point of training is not to jump every fence anyway, you will always take the chance of coming across a fence you don't like in competition.   so clinics don't have to string dozens of fences together to get the right feel for XC riding - and then wouldn't you go and hire the course to check you could ride a string of fences? I dunno, that's what I did but I accept it was in the dark ages compared to what is available now.


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## ester (13 September 2021)

^^ That was my issue on XC, clinics were always 100% fine, bold as you like happy to leave everyone, would go round whole course on his own. Judge's cars rocking up to fences not so much and that was incredibly hard to practice for without just going out at lower heights and hunter trials/ODE were few and far between at that point.
Put my instructor on him once as she only saw the good training stuff, that was amusing too.


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## Roxylola (13 September 2021)

milliepops said:



			this is something I do think BD has got broadly right, the regions offer lots of varied training (I feel quite fortunate as I straddle 3 of them so have loads of choice if I want it).  much is subsidised.
The only thing I find irksome is their insistence on UKCC which rules out loads of extremely qualified people.



i think the "problem" with this, for me anyway, is that *this* is not a competition.
Being able to skip a fence makes it training. IMO. This is possibly part of the reason why there ends up being a disconnect between bumbling along at the lowest level and then having a huge gulf to cross where you learn how to prepare and train properly because even a BE80 or 90 requires a bit more in the way of focus and competence to avoid running into problems.  Why aren't those folk getting that experience in a clinic environment and then competing when they can get round reliably?
		
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I wanted to say like BD, but we don't seem to get a huge amount up here and I'm only a winter member so I thought I might be misremembering. 
I'd argue the other side of that from an 80 pov is that it is 80T - it is a training level. Again, I'd pay more and/or enter more if I got some feedback beyond a dressage sheet. Send me fitness programs, at the point of entry have some tick boxes that you complete - my horse and I can canter for 8 minutes without stopping, my horse and I can canter up and down hills, my horse and I can jump a course of showjumps up to 85cm including a double 🤷‍♀️ prompts that might help people consider if they're ready. And if at any point my horse and I are deemed to be unfit or unable to continue for safety reasons I understand I will be stopped, in this instance I will be offered feedback by a BE approved trainer so that I can enter my next event better prepared. Those who get sniffy or don't go for their feedback don't get to enter again without booking a lesson with an approved coach.
There's so much they could do to make 80 an actual training level.


ester said:



			Swalcliffe just put up their total entries the day before ballot, it's interesting to see the current breakdown as haven't seen that with the others. There's only 5 in the 80.

Sat
100-29
100U18-3
80-5
90U18-1
Nov -17
ON-19

Sun
100-28
100op-11
Nov-39
90-28
		
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When is it? I'm presuming mid Oct if they're about to ballot. As an 80 competitor I'd be concerned about how good the ground would be - as an inexperienced combination I want to maximise our chances of having at least a clear round so I'd avoid anything very early or late in the season unless I was really sure of the ground there. 
I'd also be concerned that as I'm competing on a ticket there's a likelihood it might abandon if the weather is bad and I won't get my full entry back. I know the ticket is just sort of held but I don't know if I don't use it this year would it be there next year? 
I know that sounds penny pinching but it would be enough to put me off


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## milliepops (13 September 2021)

Roxylola said:



			I wanted to say like BD, but we don't seem to get a huge amount up here and I'm only a winter member so I thought I might be misremembering.
I'd argue the other side of that from an 80 pov is that it is 80T - it is a training level. Again, I'd pay more and/or enter more if I got some feedback beyond a dressage sheet. Send me fitness programs, at the point of entry have some tick boxes that you complete - my horse and I can canter for 8 minutes without stopping, my horse and I can canter up and down hills, my horse and I can jump a course of showjumps up to 85cm including a double 🤷‍♀️ prompts that might help people consider if they're ready. And if at any point my horse and I are deemed to be unfit or unable to continue for safety reasons I understand I will be stopped, in this instance I will be offered feedback by a BE approved trainer so that I can enter my next event better prepared. Those who get sniffy or don't go for their feedback don't get to enter again without booking a lesson with an approved coach.
There's so much they could do to make 80 an actual training level.
		
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I think you'd have to spend a bit more to get that kind of input, and then we're back to BE not being competitive with uanff on the price point. because people will think they are competent  anyway 

Are there no trainers any more? Yonks ago when they first came in I attempted to help someone prepare for her first BE80 and there were course walks and all sorts (you had to be there at the right time but the training was offered).  i don't know what the quality was like cos needless to say my person thought she didn't need it so didn't go. (and then got pulled up!!... think this has strongly informed my personal POV because she had come up from the "just have a go" approach and basically wasn't safe. i think she + family thought I was overkill but it turned out some proper prep might have helped ).

I took up the course walk when i did an old CCI* and it was SO helpful I still remember the stuff the pro told us now, it was 12 years ago!


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## ester (13 September 2021)

9th/10th oct. It's just that that has been the pattern all year re. not enough before the ballot but not sure if feasible to ballot closer to the event date.


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## Ambers Echo (13 September 2021)

I think the difference with a prelim is that you can do a prelim at home. The only way to do a XC course is by doing a XC course. And I would actually not let them go off round it alone in training when they were little - because if they did have a problem and came off I would not necessarily see it and it did not feel safe enough outside of an orgabised event with fence judges and safety protocols in place.

I think Eland Lodge get the entry level - getting you going - bit right. It's a competition but those who are not able to be competitive can enter without feeling intimidated and can learn how to ride a full course. My first 70cm course felt amazing and a genuine challenge. A world away from the feel I got from a clinic.  It's friendly and allows kids, green horses, nervous riders etc to give XC riding a go and to learn things like pacing, how fit the rider needs to be (I toitally underestimated that!). I loved it. And the people entering the 50-70cm classes at Eland are not the ones dropping out of the BE80s and 90s so I don't think that is part of the problem really. If anything places like Eland inspire people to believe they can get better and step up because while there are inexperienced combinations giving it a go, there are also competitive combinations who are going clear round a decent track in the time who then make the step to BE. It's the fact that this 'step' seems to be disappearing as you can stay unaff to 100 and still ride in iconic locations that is problematic.

But there are so many different ways of viewing this I guess and potential problems aith every viewpoint. The one thing I do disagree with Eland on is that they allow you to remount after falling. That is a step too far in 'carry on regardless'. Or at least they did a few years ahgo because I fell off Max many years ago before the first fence when he stumbled. I got 60 pens but was allowed to go round.


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## Kat (13 September 2021)

milliepops said:



			i think the "problem" with this, for me anyway, is that *this* is not a competition. 
Being able to skip a fence makes it training. IMO. This is possibly part of the reason why there ends up being a disconnect between bumbling along at the lowest level and then having a huge gulf to cross where you learn how to prepare and train properly because even a BE80 or 90 requires a bit more in the way of focus and competence to avoid running into problems.  Why aren't those folk getting that experience in a clinic environment and then competing when they can get round reliably?
		
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I think this kind of thing has a place. 

Obviously if you skip a fence or carry on after elimination you aren't going to win or qualify for finals. However if things go badly you can still have a nice day, get round the course and learn from it. 

A ODE is massively expensive, it would be gutting not to complete for a reason that has no effect on overall safety. If you get eliminated for leaving your bandages on in the dressage does it matter if you jump xc and SJ but don't get a score? It makes no difference to anyone but the person who has paid a huge wedge of cash for a nice day out. 

As a wimpy middle-aged lady if there is one fence on course that gives me the collywobbles does it matter to anyone if I bypass it and get eliminated but complete the rest of the course? 

At the last xc clear round I went to I missed the third from last fence. My horse was getting strong and I didn't feel I could get the approach I wanted on the terrain and it was a bit slippy so I skipped it and carried on to jump the last two which I had no concerns about. I don't see why that should matter to anyone but me. 

It is just value for money. 

You don't get the full experience going to clinics or training days.


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## Roxylola (13 September 2021)

milliepops said:



			I think you'd have to spend a bit more to get that kind of input, and then we're back to BE not being competitive with uanff on the price point. because people will think they are competent  anyway 

Are there no trainers any more? Yonks ago when they first came in I attempted to help someone prepare for her first BE80 and there were course walks and all sorts (you had to be there at the right time but the training was offered).  i don't know what the quality was like cos needless to say my person thought she didn't need it so didn't go. (and then got pulled up!!... think this has strongly informed my personal POV because she had come up from the "just have a go" approach and basically wasn't safe. i think she + family thought I was overkill but it turned out some proper prep might have helped ).

I took up the course walk when i did an old CCI* and it was SO helpful I still remember the stuff the pro told us now, it was 12 years ago!
		
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No, but I think some has been due to covid. 
I think there was a course walk at kelsall but it was only certain times which didn't fit with what I could do with my times and travelling etc. 
I think something like lucinda greens academy but in a sort of "light" form would be good maybe. Again, I'd pay more membership to get better training happily - not saying it would mean I entered more because it is a lot for me personally to pay and just logistics of working full time, owner/driver being a single parent etc etc.

Eland and the Brigante stuff is to me what good club grassroots should be


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## quizzie (13 September 2021)

spacefaer said:



			When I started eventing, there was nothing below Novice.
You belonged to the Pony Club and then a Riding Club for both training and experience.
XC courses were mainly 2'6-2'9 (novice) or 3'-3'3 (open)
Anyone who wanted to jump lower xc courses didn't compete, or would do the clear round or minimus course.
Those who competed BE weren't particularly welcomed back at Riding club - I offered to be available for RC teams and it was made perfectly clear that they'd rather not send a team than take up my offer.
I think BE prostituted itself at the lower levels to get the money but has no real interest in the smaller tracks. There is no interest in the "happy amateur" other than as a source of funds.
In an ideal world, as said above, they should redefine themselves as an aspirational sport and people should have to work their way up to be competent enough to compete. However, that's not going to happen as costs of running events seem to be stuck in an upwards spiral and the lower levels of membership are used to fund the higher.

If I was still competing, I wouldn't be entering anything just at the moment with the state of the ground. It's hard enough to train on, let alone run xc on.

I competed with an aim  - all my horses had a career path. I never took a horse out that I didn't feel could be competitive on the day, and I genuinely don't understand why anyone would want to spend 100s of pounds with the vague hope of completing. Go home, spend the money on training and come back when you stand a chance of a decent dressage and a double clear ,😄
		
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  I started in the same era, Novice was the first level eventing, and discovery in SJ ...although the courses were less technical in those days.

Local unaffiliated held show jumping all the way up to 3'6", and the open hunter trials were 3'9"...so provided a good training ground for moving up to affiliated. Competitions as such barely existed below 2'6" (75-80cm)

The gradual lowering of the starting levels eroded the financial base for unaffilated/riding club, and they have gradually disappeared or only run to about 2'9/3'.....but now that people are finding the costs too great for affiliated eventing, that middle ground has all but gone.

BE really only seem to want the professionals at Novice plus level now, and treat the lower levels as a cash cow...but that attitude is coming coming back to bite them .

I also think the old concept of a spring and autumn season for eventing was much better for the horses, Spring started last weekend of March  and ran to 1st weekend June, then the horses had a break, with Autumn running from August to 1st weekend October.  But in the drive for more money, many horses now run from Early March right through to the end of October, inevitably often on unsuitable ground.

I loved eventing back in the "old days", there was a great camaraderie especially at the three day events with the full speed and endurance.....and XC felt like you were crossing the country, not going round a manicured set of portable skinnies!!! Someone said a few years ago at Badminton, that you needed a cross between a top show jumper and a gymkhana pony!!

Rant over!!...I think I was very lucky to compete in what I regard as the heyday of eventing, and really don't miss what it has now become!


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## milliepops (13 September 2021)

Kat said:



			I think this kind of thing has a place.

Obviously if you skip a fence or carry on after elimination you aren't going to win or qualify for finals. However if things go badly you can still have a nice day, get round the course and learn from it.

A ODE is massively expensive, it would be gutting not to complete for a reason that has no effect on overall safety. If you get eliminated for leaving your bandages on in the dressage does it matter if you jump xc and SJ but don't get a score? It makes no difference to anyone but the person who has paid a huge wedge of cash for a nice day out.

As a wimpy middle-aged lady if there is one fence on course that gives me the collywobbles does it matter to anyone if I bypass it and get eliminated but complete the rest of the course?

At the last xc clear round I went to I missed the third from last fence. My horse was getting strong and I didn't feel I could get the approach I wanted on the terrain and it was a bit slippy so I skipped it and carried on to jump the last two which I had no concerns about. I don't see why that should matter to anyone but me.

It is just value for money.

You don't get the full experience going to clinics or training days.
		
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I do understand everything you've said. I'd have liked going SJ if I could go round the gappy oxers, haha.
Personally i just struggle with that concept forming part of a *competition*. If there was a stronger training scene you could run "have a go days" sort of leading on from what Roxy was talking about with a trainer etc on hand which might be more productive than a person going round in their own head dealing with their own demons - like AE says you do learn a lot when you ride round a course, but you might not learn the right things by yourself.  It's no skin off my nose, i don't even have a jumping horse at the moment. but i can't imagine going to a show not even intending to jump the course.  and it's a fact of competition life that you sometimes get an E for getting the tack rules wrong, again that's the definition of competition to me, there are parameters you have to meet.


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## milliepops (13 September 2021)

Ambers Echo said:



			I think the difference with a prelim is that you can do a prelim at home. The only way to do a XC course is by doing a XC course.
		
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you can ride the test pattern, but you still only get the flags and judges boxes and white boards, flowers and atmosphere at a show, unless you "hire the course"


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## ester (13 September 2021)

Easier to set up a comp dressage arena than a comp XC course though. 
Urchinwood was the only one round us that would do some clear round days, but again no one actually on course, no one even noticed I'd fallen off at one point 😂


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## Ambers Echo (13 September 2021)

True but sending kids off round a course  I had hired felt a bit reckless with no one to help if they came a cropper miles away.
The safety issue is tricky but I think you are more likely to have under prepared combinations who don’t understand the level of challenge if you don’t have lower level ‘have a go’ events but had to go straight in at BE80 or BE90. 

My real problem is people taking that ‘have a go’ mentality to 90/100 tracks. I think that is unfair on horses and unsafe for horse and rider.


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## Bernster (13 September 2021)

Yesterday was a have a go non competitive event. Rosette for turning up. As you’d expect there was a wide range of horses and riders, but it was well attended, well run, and great practice for a comp.  A nice mid way betweenlessons and comps, although no training elements at that one. I assume be80t was intended to be similar for those getting into BE?


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## Kat (13 September 2021)

milliepops said:



			I do understand everything you've said. I'd have liked going SJ if I could go round the gappy oxers, haha.
Personally i just struggle with that concept forming part of a *competition*. If there was a stronger training scene you could run "have a go days" sort of leading on from what Roxy was talking about with a trainer etc on hand which might be more productive than a person going round in their own head dealing with their own demons - like AE says you do learn a lot when you ride round a course, but you might not learn the right things by yourself.  It's no skin off my nose, i don't even have a jumping horse at the moment. but i can't imagine going to a show not even intending to jump the course.  and it's a fact of competition life that you sometimes get an E for getting the tack rules wrong, again that's the definition of competition to me, there are parameters you have to meet.
		
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I don't think that is necessarily that people go not intending to jump the course, it is more not being too harsh if for whatever reason they don't feel able to. If someone makes a silly mistake or has a wobble should they forfeit the whole day (and entry fee) or should they be able to enjoy the rest of the activity they have paid for? 

I think have a go days are something that could really help encourage people and bring them on. Give them chance to jump a course in semi competition conditions with a little less pressure. 

However with the right rules this could be part of the same event and run alongside. Unaffiliated ODE with rules that allow the competitive to compete but are sympathetic to those starting out or building up who might not be competitive, black flag options, ability to miss a fence for a penalty but continue, allowing those eliminated to continue if safe to do so, none of this affects the competitive types who want to qualify for a final, but it might bump up entries to make qualifiers more profitable. 

I mentioned that a riding club near me do a kind of have a go day, it is really popular.  The HT course is opened up for what they call a clear round. It is relaxed, no strict start times (they give windows to avoid queues or gaps). They don't have a fence judge per fence, they have stewards with a radio per area so each fence is overseen but not individually to keep numbers of volunteers reasonable. No rosettes or prizes or scoring. You can go as fast or slow as you like, alone or in pairs and can have someone on foot if you like. You can pick a height, jump a fence more than once or miss a fence. I used to go to something similar back in the 90s too. 

There is clearly demand for this type of thing so why not embrace it?


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## RachelFerd (13 September 2021)

When I did an 80T back in 2015 there was a BE trainer present for all three phases warm-ups available to give help and assistance, and then there were also organised course walks with the trainer. I did have a brief chat in the dressage warm-up, but the conversation was broadly "you appear to know what you're doing, do you mind if i focus elsewhere" - which was fine by me. 

I think the budget for trainers was cut due to COVID or prior to COVID.


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## RachelFerd (13 September 2021)

Kat said:



			I don't think that is necessarily that people go not intending to jump the course, it is more not being too harsh if for whatever reason they don't feel able to. If someone makes a silly mistake or has a wobble should they forfeit the whole day (and entry fee) or should they be able to enjoy the rest of the activity they have paid for?

I think have a go days are something that could really help encourage people and bring them on. Give them chance to jump a course in semi competition conditions with a little less pressure.

However with the right rules this could be part of the same event and run alongside. Unaffiliated ODE with rules that allow the competitive to compete but are sympathetic to those starting out or building up who might not be competitive, black flag options, ability to miss a fence for a penalty but continue, allowing those eliminated to continue if safe to do so, none of this affects the competitive types who want to qualify for a final, but it might bump up entries to make qualifiers more profitable.

I mentioned that a riding club near me do a kind of have a go day, it is really popular.  The HT course is opened up for what they call a clear round. It is relaxed, no strict start times (they give windows to avoid queues or gaps). They don't have a fence judge per fence, they have stewards with a radio per area so each fence is overseen but not individually to keep numbers of volunteers reasonable. No rosettes or prizes or scoring. You can go as fast or slow as you like, alone or in pairs and can have someone on foot if you like. You can pick a height, jump a fence more than once or miss a fence. I used to go to something similar back in the 90s too.

There is clearly demand for this type of thing so why not embrace it?
		
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Yeah, I don't think there is anything wrong with this - I'd prefer to see the BE venues running days like this for their unaff dates, rather than identikit versions of BE. BE did trial some training events at the start of un-lockdown this year and actually a number of the pros were really complimentary of them being good experience for the more novice horses - not quite as easygoing as what you've described above, but i think it was similar with overseeing areas, height options on XC and no results/records/prizes. No reason why it couldn't be rolled out to be appropriate for more novice riders and combinations too.


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## ester (13 September 2021)

They also had the decision on whether you could continue or not (mum had a SJ issue, can't remember what, so had to go be obs in the XC warm up first)


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## milliepops (13 September 2021)

Ambers Echo said:



			My real problem is people taking that ‘have a go’ mentality to 90/100 tracks. I think that is unfair on horses and unsafe for horse and rider.
		
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and that, for me, is why "have a go" needs to be separate from competition, because otherwise it will just naturally bleed upwards 



Bernster said:



			Yesterday was a have a go non competitive event. Rosette for turning up. As you’d expect there was a wide range of horses and riders, but it was well attended, well run, and great practice for a comp.  A nice mid way betweenlessons and comps, although no training elements at that one. I assume be80t was intended to be similar for those getting into BE?
		
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thing is BE80 has become a competitive end in itself now, understandably, so there are some really competitive combinations at that level. sounds like the original ethos has sort of fallen away, my fleeting experience was like RFs with trainers at each phase.


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## ycbm (13 September 2021)

RachelFerd said:



			Whenever i'm at Somerford I marvel at how effectively they've monetised the entire site. They rarely run any competitions, because clearly there is far more income to be made from well prepared and thought out training opportunities than there are from running comps.
		
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They don't provide any training either,  do they?  AFAIK, SPF only hire out facilities.  Andy Heffernan also trains people,  but as "himself" if you get my meaning,  not as "SPF".

It's a brilliant place and a brilliantly run business,  I have their haylage outside. 
.


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## Kat (13 September 2021)

milliepops said:



			and that, for me, is why "have a go" needs to be separate from competition, because otherwise it will just naturally bleed upwards 

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I think "have a go" is being used with two meanings in this thread, one would be fine if it "bled upwards" the other wouldn't. 

I agree that a "just have a go" attitude to competing is dangerous at higher levels and can compromise welfare at any level and we should discourage ill-prepared combinations from having a go. 

I am not sure that the option to have a non-competitive low pressure run in a competition environment is necessarily a problem at any level. There are lots of times this could benefit horse or rider. In fact lots of knowledgeable coaches talk about lack of xc practice and "have a go" or clear round hunter trials would be one way to deal with that. It is much easier to get dressage or SJ practice than practice riding a full course of xc jumps.


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## Ambers Echo (13 September 2021)

They have clinics pretty much every day in every discipline though individual trainers run them not SPF. But that’s like Eland too. And 3 camps on the go most weeks Feb - Oct. there is a lot of training at Somerford by dozens and dozens of different trainers and groups.


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## RachelFerd (13 September 2021)

ycbm said:



			They don't provide any training either,  do they?  AFAIK, SPF only hire out facilities.  Andy Heffernan also trains people,  but as "himself" if you her my meaning,  not as "SPF".

Is a brilliant place and a brilliantly run business,  I have their haylage outside.
.
		
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Yep, they don't organise any of the training. They provide the (incredible) facility, and then everyone hires it - either individually, or through trainers, riding clubs etc. Plus you've got the cafe running all the time, a number of other units let out to vets, tack shops etc. 

They also don't run the livery directly - that is sub-let too.

It clearly works and makes sense, because what they do is detailed focus on providing excellent facilities, organisation of the rest of it is down to the individuals.

It is an interesting example because it is clearly run as a proper commercial business, not as a the hobby event of the landed gentry.


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## TPO (13 September 2021)

See I don't think there should be any "having a go" when it comes to travelling at speed towards fixed fences 😬

*dons flak suit*

Admittedly you can't build Badminton in your back field to practise but there are lots of things that you can do.

If the goal is to enter a 60cm HT/unaff event then at home I'd expect someone to be CONFIDENT and CAPABLE schooling over at least 70cm.

If there are jumps on the yard it's not that hard to make xc fences like corners, coffins, ditches and narrow fences. I know this isn't isn't same as a "blood up" day at an actual competition but its a good start.

The Caroline Moore & Ros Canter lecture demos are good examples of practicing xc with showjumps (admittedly they did have the jump for joy narrow brush fence). 4yrs to 4* is the first I think and I can't remember the second but both are available on H&C TV, if you have Prime you can get a free trial.

Similarly all you need are markers to work on improving the canter and influencing the stride. There are people endangering themselves at any height because of the holes in their flatwork. The horse isn't in front of the leg and the rider can't direct or influence them. 

Spiralling rapidly off topic as I do but... I think there is also an element of people not wanting to hear the truth and a lack of self awareness. Instructors have to make their wages, clients are less likely to keep paying a trainer who stops/doesn't support their "fun". I saw it when I was on yards and to a degree it crops up on here, paraphrasing, "I wasn't allowed to do X, Y or Z but they don't know what they're talking about because I have done A, B and C so I won't be going back to them"

Not just in horse sports but there does seem to be a great degree of entitlement these days. 

Every chance I'm looking back with rose tinted glasses but it felt almost if there was more of an unofficial apprenticeship required best for horse ownership or competing. Now it seems like things are too easy got be it buying a horse or heading out to charge at fences.


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## RachelFerd (13 September 2021)

TPO said:



			See I don't think there should be any "having a go" when it comes to travelling at speed towards fixed fences 😬

*dons flak suit*

Admittedly you can't build Badminton in your back field to practise but there are lots of things that you can do.

If the goal is to enter a 60cm HT/unaff event then at home I'd expect someone to be CONFIDENT and CAPABLE schooling over at least 70cm.

If there are jumps on the yard it's not that hard to make xc fences like corners, coffins, ditches and narrow fences. I know this isn't isn't same as a "blood up" day at an actual competition but its a good start.

The Caroline Moore & Ros Canter lecture demos are good examples of practicing xc with showjumps (admittedly they did have the jump for joy narrow brush fence). 4yrs to 4* is the first I think and I can't remember the second but both are available on H&C TV, if you have Prime you can get a free trial.

Similarly all you need are markers to work on improving the canter and influencing the stride. There are people endangering themselves at any height because of the holes in their flatwork. The horse isn't in front of the leg and the rider can't direct or influence them.

Spiralling rapidly off topic as I do but... I think there is also an element of people not wanting to hear the truth and a lack of self awareness. Instructors have to make their wages, clients are less likely to keep paying a trainer who stops/doesn't support their "fun". I saw it when I was on yards and to a degree it crops up on here, paraphrasing, "I wasn't allowed to do X, Y or Z but they don't know what they're talking about because I have done A, B and C so I won't be going back to them"

Not just in horse sports but there does seem to be a great degree of entitlement these days.

Every chance I'm looking back with rose tinted glasses but it felt almost if there was more of an unofficial apprenticeship required best for horse ownership or competing. Now it seems like things are too easy got be it buying a horse or heading out to charge at fences.
		
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Putting my rose tinted glasses on again. When I first started doing BE in 2003 I was under 18 and the rules then (now scrapped) were that I had to be signed off by an accredited trainer before I could enter a BE event. So we looked in the paper directory for who the nearest accredited trainer was, rang up, arranged to visit, and took 15 year old me and my lovely 6yo generic Irish lump to see Angela Tucker to sign us off. 

My first reaction was that she was quite scary!! But, she took her job of being able to assess whether we were SAFE to take part quite seriously. After some work in the arena, we headed out onto small XC field - she didn't want to see me jump all sorts of stuff, she had 1 test - could I ride uphill and downhill, in balance, to an upright solid fence, safely. I could (just) and managed to get signed off. 

It is a good basic test of whether you're safe to run XC - I know all sorts of things happen when blood is up at a competition that don't happen in training - but what percentage of people at 80/90 level would pass the test of being able to canter in balance down a relatively steep hill to an upright set of rails and pop them safely?


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## Ambers Echo (13 September 2021)

Kat said:



			I think "have a go" is being used with two meanings in this thread, one would be fine if it "bled upwards" the other wouldn't.

I agree that a "just have a go" attitude to competing is dangerous at higher levels and can compromise welfare at any level and we should discourage ill-prepared combinations from having a go.

I am not sure that the option to have a non-competitive low pressure run in a competition environment is necessarily a problem at any level. There are lots of times this could benefit horse or rider. In fact lots of knowledgeable coaches talk about lack of xc practice and "have a go" or clear round hunter trials would be one way to deal with that. It is much easier to get dressage or SJ practice than practice riding a full course of xc jumps.
		
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I introduced the phrase 'have a go' to describe how we all started off. The kids had nice ponies and did a bit of lots of things: pony club, clear round SJ, hacking, gymkhanas, lessons, farm rides. They had XC lessons at the yard we were on at the time and there is just no comparison between jumping portable 70cm fences in a field and jumping the 70cm XC course at Eland. We were not aspiring to event necessarily but Eland ran HT events and they looked fun so we decided to 'have a go'.  And then I did the same on my fell pony and loved it. It does not mean we were reckless and under prepared. Just that we were not die hard wannabe eventers on a pathway to BE. Not then anyway! We were just dipping our toes in at a really fun venue that made the experience feel special at every level. 

Underprepared riders can be at risk in any discipline. An even more so if they have no chance to prepare for eventing any other way than by doing a higher level event.


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## teapot (13 September 2021)

RachelFerd said:



			Putting my rose tinted glasses on again. When I first started doing BE in 2003 I was under 18 and the rules then (now scrapped) were that I had to be signed off by an accredited trainer before I could enter a BE event. So we looked in the paper directory for who the nearest accredited trainer was, rang up, arranged to visit, and took 15 year old me and my lovely 6yo generic Irish lump to see Angela Tucker to sign us off.

My first reaction was that she was quite scary!! But, she took her job of being able to assess whether we were SAFE to take part quite seriously. After some work in the arena, we headed out onto small XC field - she didn't want to see me jump all sorts of stuff, she had 1 test - could I ride uphill and downhill, in balance, to an upright solid fence, safely. I could (just) and managed to get signed off.

It is a good basic test of whether you're safe to run XC - I know all sorts of things happen when blood is up at a competition that don't happen in training - but what percentage of people at 80/90 level would pass the test of being able to canter in balance down a relatively steep hill to an upright set of rails and pop them safely?
		
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In the same way Lucinda Green makes everyone on her clinics go through the same process in walk, trot, then canter over small sj fences miles away from any xc fences. She won't let anyone get to the fun bit unless they're safe, and quite rightly too. I know of someone, old school, always out with the local hunt etc, and her first clinic with LG gave her a massive wake up call.

Unfortunately there are people who'll bypass that level of training and it's accessible too, not like Lucinda only teaches one clinic a year, goes off to a BE90 as the 80 'is too small' and comes a cropper at the fourth fence and they don't understand why.

Signing off anyone/everyone would be a good start, especially those teens who don't get involved with pony club and keep jumping bigger and wider for the 'gram account


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## RachelFerd (13 September 2021)

teapot said:



			Signing off anyone/everyone would be a good start, especially those teens who don't get involved with pony club and keep jumping bigger and wider for the 'gram account 

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And then those people go back to unaffiliated only, exacerbating the problem. It's a really difficult conundrum - how to make a sport inclusive and inviting whilst also keeping it safe and having strict safety standards. 

I have done a bit of training with Lucinda this year. She's a funny character and I do get that she can be marmite in opinions - but i do sometimes think those that haven't enjoyed her sessions are those that didn't want to hear that they have to make major changes to their training before they can crack on and do anything. Because nobody likes hearing what they don't want to hear.


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## teapot (13 September 2021)

RachelFerd said:



			And then those people go back to unaffiliated only, exacerbating the problem. It's a really difficult conundrum - how to make a sport inclusive and inviting whilst also keeping it safe and having strict safety standards.

I have done a bit of training with Lucinda this year. She's a funny character and I do get that she can be marmite in opinions - but i do sometimes think those that haven't enjoyed her sessions are those that didn't want to hear that they have to make major changes to their training before they can crack on and do anything. Because nobody likes hearing what they don't want to hear.
		
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Definitely - see my edit re someone at a clinic. Her fb post afterwards could have been spitting feathers.


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## spacefaer (13 September 2021)

quizzie said:



			I started in the same era, Novice was the first level eventing, and discovery in SJ ...although the courses were less technical in those days.

Local unaffiliated held show jumping all the way up to 3'6", and the open hunter trials were 3'9"...so provided a good training ground for moving up to affiliated. Competitions as such barely existed below 2'6" (75-80cm)

The gradual lowering of the starting levels eroded the financial base for unaffilated/riding club, and they have gradually disappeared or only run to about 2'9/3'.....but now that people are finding the costs too great for affiliated eventing, that middle ground has all but gone.

BE really only seem to want the professionals at Novice plus level now, and treat the lower levels as a cash cow...but that attitude is coming coming back to bite them .

I also think the old concept of a spring and autumn season for eventing was much better for the horses, Spring started last weekend of March  and ran to 1st weekend June, then the horses had a break, with Autumn running from August to 1st weekend October.  But in the drive for more money, many horses now run from Early March right through to the end of October, inevitably often on unsuitable ground.

I loved eventing back in the "old days", there was a great camaraderie especially at the three day events with the full speed and endurance.....and XC felt like you were crossing the country, not going round a manicured set of portable skinnies!!! Someone said a few years ago at Badminton, that you needed a cross between a top show jumper and a gymkhana pony!!

Rant over!!...I think I was very lucky to compete in what I regard as the heyday of eventing, and really don't miss what it has now become!
		
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Yes - this!


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## spacefaer (13 September 2021)

I'm getting the feeling that the arguments for the "have a go" low/no pressure xc sessions - I hesitate to call them events - spring in some part from school non competitive ethos.

The number of school sports days with all inclusive, no winner, non- competitive sports has saddened me.  Life may not be all about winning, and eventing may not be either, but someone has to get it so right that they're the best on the day, and others will mess up. 
I don't think it teaches anyone anything to subscribe to the pov that we're all equal and there are no consequences to making mistakes. 
I fell off at the last fence of the BE Novice xc at Hartpury once, when in the lead. I didn't get a pat on the back and a "never mind dear" - I learnt the hard way not to see a flyer on a tired horse.


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## Bernster (13 September 2021)

Ah SF, that takes us to another element then I suppose. I’m in the not competitive, have a go and have fun bracket. I don’t want to only spend my time at lessons and clinics though, and I do like to have an ‘event’ to aim for.  But I think there’s space enough for riders to have a go and not worry about being competitive and just doing it for fun.  Maybe that’s what unaff is and where BE is/should be different?


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## Ambers Echo (13 September 2021)

That is not remotely what lower level competition is like. It IS competitive. If you are eliminated you get an E by your name. You have to earn your placing by beating other people like in any other competition. The only difference is that you can carry on if you are eliminated. But you can in BE anyway, once you are on the XC. No-one flags you down and drags you off the course if you jump the wrong fence or miss one out.


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## ycbm (13 September 2021)

spacefaer said:



			I competed with an aim - all my horses had a career path. I never took a horse out that I didn't feel could be competitive on the day, and I genuinely don't understand why anyone would want to spend 100s of pounds with the vague hope of completing. Go home, spend the money on training and come back when you stand a chance of a decent dressage and a double clear ,😄
		
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The only way to get the thrill of a run over big fixed fences when I started eventing was to event.  I couldn't give a stuff about my dressage score and show jumping was something to get through with a low enough score to get on the cross country course.   I'd already been eventing several seasons before I gave a stuff about actually trying to win anything. For me in those early years,  it was all about the thrill of galloping round courses that were unavailable any other way.


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## DabDab (13 September 2021)

spacefaer said:



			I'm getting the feeling that the arguments for the "have a go" low/no pressure xc sessions - I hesitate to call them events - spring in some part from school non competitive ethos.

The number of school sports days with all inclusive, no winner, non- competitive sports has saddened me.  Life may not be all about winning, and eventing may not be either, but someone has to get it so right that they're the best on the day, and others will mess up.
I don't think it teaches anyone anything to subscribe to the pov that we're all equal and there are no consequences to making mistakes.
I fell off at the last fence of the BE Novice xc at Hartpury once, when in the lead. I didn't get a pat on the back and a "never mind dear" - I learnt the hard way not to see a flyer on a tired horse.
		
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Yep, you're probably right about it being a bit of a social shift.

It's an uncomfortable reality that if there is no hierarchy then there can be nothing seen of more comparative value to anything else - nobody can be considered as having done a better or worse job than anyone else. 

As humans we instinctively want to equalise stuff because being worse at something than someone is not pleasant to us. But just because it is our instinct to want to equalise doesn't mean it is the right thing to do.


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## Roxylola (13 September 2021)

RachelFerd said:



			After some work in the arena, we headed out onto small XC field - she didn't want to see me jump all sorts of stuff, she had 1 test - could I ride uphill and downhill, in balance, to an upright solid fence, safely. I could (just) and managed to get signed off.

It is a good basic test of whether you're safe to run XC - I know all sorts of things happen when blood is up at a competition that don't happen in training - but what percentage of people at 80/90 level would pass the test of being able to canter in balance down a relatively steep hill to an upright set of rails and pop them safely?
		
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Interesting that was used, at the clear round I went to at kelsall not one of the 80 combinations I saw cantered down the hill to the last fence which was a sj (including Charlie and his owner) he managed just fine down it with me in the 90 although it was pretty steep not scarily so imo but potentially some of those folk could be thinking well I've done the arena eventing at 80 I'll book the BE there (have a go heroes 😬)


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## iknowmyvalue (13 September 2021)

I was at a “have a go” event over the weekend at Epworth. It’s not advertised as a competition in any way. I personally think it’s a great thing, and could be a way to start people off in the sport or be a stepping stone to step up a level. You pick your dressage test from a list, height for SJ, and the XC allows you to mix and match heights to some extent. Starts at 70cm up to 100cm. You’re allowed 3 attempts at each fence before you have to move on. There’s no expectation of prize money/rosettes but it is a competition environment, and seemed pretty well attended. I’m another who has a horse who’d jump round an XC fine in training, but on the same course on a competition day the wheels fell off. So it was good to be able to go out in that sort of environment with less pressure to “perform”.

Though the one thing I would say is that I wish there were more training/clinics available at weekends. I know this is because they want to run comps then, which is understandable. But I would definitely be more interested in training days if they were at a time I could get to them. It might well be that I’m not looking in the right places, or that it’s just in my area, but I struggle to find weekend clinics/training sessions for what I want. I work full time with long, unpredictable hours, so I can’t get to any training during the week (unless it’s at the yard/the one small venue down the road, and not reliably most of the year unless it’s after 6:30-7pm). So I would love it if more venues could do stuff like that!


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## Lexi_ (13 September 2021)

RachelFerd said:



			It is a good basic test of whether you're safe to run XC - I know all sorts of things happen when blood is up at a competition that don't happen in training - but what percentage of people at 80/90 level would pass the test of being able to canter in balance down a relatively steep hill to an upright set of rails and pop them safely?
		
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From my experience of watching a lot of them go past me over the course of a season, quite a high percentage would fail that test 🙈  There are a worrying amount of riders at that level who don’t look as if they’ve ever put their stirrups up properly and gone at a decent cross country canter over varied terrain.


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## Velcrobum (13 September 2021)

I have just spent 5 days at Cornbury BE. A person entered the 3* I watched them and their horse at fences 13, 14ab, 15ab, 16 the combination then went out of sight. The horse was very clearly struggling and it was not nice to watch. The combination had a rotational fall at 20c the second of the day (the first resulted in a horse fatality). I looked up the competition record of the struggling horse and was quite shocked. The horse had this year done 1 100, 4 Novices 1 2* and 1 Intermediate. It was then entered for 3* having achieved minimum MER with no real experience at intermediate level. The last novice run and only intermediate run were at Aston le Walls which is just about undulating. IMHO this was definitely a very poor preparation for a 3* over hilly terrain. I know the FJ steward well she said the horse was struggling after the first hill on the course. It would appear that even at the higher levels there are riders who are not preparing horses well which is very sad. The FJ steward reported the rider to the Ground Jury.

Edited to add this is a professional rider ie rides owners horses.


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## Kat (13 September 2021)

Ambers Echo said:



			I introduced the phrase 'have a go' to describe how we all started off. The kids had nice ponies and did a bit of lots of things: pony club, clear round SJ, hacking, gymkhanas, lessons, farm rides. They had XC lessons at the yard we were on at the time and there is just no comparison between jumping portable 70cm fences in a field and jumping the 70cm XC course at Eland. We were not aspiring to event necessarily but Eland ran HT events and they looked fun so we decided to 'have a go'.  And then I did the same on my fell pony and loved it. It does not mean we were reckless and under prepared. Just that we were not die hard wannabe eventers on a pathway to BE. Not then anyway! We were just dipping our toes in at a really fun venue that made the experience feel special at every level. 

Underprepared riders can be at risk in any discipline. An even more so if they have no chance to prepare for eventing any other way than by doing a higher level event.
		
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I think you are using it in a way that encompasses a lot of the people that BE doesn't accommodate but well organised unaffiliated does. 

I'm one of them, I could probably



TPO said:



			See I don't think there should be any "having a go" when it comes to travelling at speed towards fixed fences 😬

*dons flak suit*

Admittedly you can't build Badminton in your back field to practise but there are lots of things that you can do.

If the goal is to enter a 60cm HT/unaff event then at home I'd expect someone to be CONFIDENT and CAPABLE schooling over at least 70cm.

If there are jumps on the yard it's not that hard to make xc fences like corners, coffins, ditches and narrow fences. I know this isn't isn't same as a "blood up" day at an actual competition but its a good start.

The Caroline Moore & Ros Canter lecture demos are good examples of practicing xc with showjumps (admittedly they did have the jump for joy narrow brush fence). 4yrs to 4* is the first I think and I can't remember the second but both are available on H&C TV, if you have Prime you can get a free trial.

Similarly all you need are markers to work on improving the canter and influencing the stride. There are people endangering themselves at any height because of the holes in their flatwork. The horse isn't in front of the leg and the rider can't direct or influence them. 

Spiralling rapidly off topic as I do but... I think there is also an element of people not wanting to hear the truth and a lack of self awareness. Instructors have to make their wages, clients are less likely to keep paying a trainer who stops/doesn't support their "fun". I saw it when I was on yards and to a degree it crops up on here, paraphrasing, "I wasn't allowed to do X, Y or Z but they don't know what they're talking about because I have done A, B and C so I won't be going back to them"

Not just in horse sports but there does seem to be a great degree of entitlement these days. 

Every chance I'm looking back with rose tinted glasses but it felt almost if there was more of an unofficial apprenticeship required best for horse ownership or competing. Now it seems like things are too easy got be it buying a horse or heading out to charge at fences.
		
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I have done one of those Caroline Moore clinics, back when I was brave, so long ago it was before she started working with Ros! 


It was fantastic really educational and did absolute wonders for my confidence and jumping skills. I went and entered a 3ft3 ODE afterwards. It wasn't for everyone though, one girl left in tears part way through. 

Sadly I am not that brave now and my horse really takes her confidence from her rider. On the horse I was riding then it was a different matter.


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## ester (13 September 2021)

I'm all on board with non-competitive sports, I'm never going to be competitive at any sport I never have been but that doesn't mean it's not good for me to join in with them just for the sheer enjoyment of the day.

I'm not a quick cyclist but very much enjoy a day round a route that someone else has planned, signed, and provided me with part way refreshments. I'm never going to go racing 😂. Even though I am very much not goal orientated, in anything in life, I just like to enjoy doing stuff. I wonder if for some people that sort of just doesn't exist as a *thing* so they don't understand why you would?


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## DabDab (13 September 2021)

ester said:



			I'm all on board with non-competitive sports, I'm never going to be competitive at any sport I never have been but that doesn't mean it's not good for me to join in with them just for the sheer enjoyment of the day.

I'm not a quick cyclist but very much enjoy a day round a route that someone else has planned, signed, and provided me with part way refreshments. I'm never going to go racing 😂. Even though I am very much not goal orientated, in anything in life, I just like to enjoy doing stuff. I wonder if for some people that sort of just doesn't exist as a *thing* so they don't understand why you would?
		
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Yep likewise. I'm unlikely to ever enter an event again but I would love to enter a proper signed, stewarded xc round with well built fences at a specified height.

ETA: badged up height and optimum time would be important elements for me - I'm not at all competitive but am very goal oriented 😂

I don't think people who run BE 'get' people like me though. And I guess that's part of the problem (well, it's a problem if they want to get money out of people like me)


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## Velcrobum (13 September 2021)

Further to my post about Cornbury the horse that had the fatal rotational fall was very experienced, had this year run at Advanced, 3*S, 3*L and some Intermediates. Last year 2x 3*S, Advanced and a few Intermediates. It was a very unfortunate fall.


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## RachelFerd (13 September 2021)

Velcrobum said:



			I have just spent 5 days at Cornbury BE. A person entered the 3* I watched them and their horse at fences 13, 14ab, 15ab, 16 the combination then went out of sight. The horse was very clearly struggling and it was not nice to watch. The combination had a rotational fall at 20c the second of the day (the first resulted in a horse fatality). I looked up the competition record of the struggling horse and was quite shocked. The horse had this year done 1 100, 4 Novices 1 2* and 1 Intermediate. It was then entered for 3* having achieved minimum MER with no real experience at intermediate level. The last novice run and only intermediate run were at Aston le Walls which is just about undulating. IMHO this was definitely a very poor preparation for a 3* over hilly terrain. I know the FJ steward well she said the horse was struggling after, the first hill on the course. It would appear that even at the higher levels there are riders who are not preparing horses well which is very sad. The FJ steward reported the rider to the Ground Jury.

Edited to add this is a professional rider ie rides owners horses.
		
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To go straight into a full-up 3* direct from what is well known to be a soft, if not *the* softest intermediate seems like a very odd choice.



DabDab said:



			I don't think people who run BE 'get' people like me though. And I guess that's part of the problem (well, it's a problem if they want to get money out of people like me)
		
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I don't think we're totally at odds. It's a bit like me running half marathons a few years ago. I wasn't running to win, but I was running over a properly marked, stewarded and timed course in order to get a result that I was happy with (but was obviously never going to be fastest woman in the Great North Run!) - incidently, pretty much *all* running events in the UK are run under British Athletics licence. Nobody goes on about 'not being good enough to enter a licensed race' - they just enter licensed races at a distance that they think they can run, because that is what there is, and the races successfully cater for all capabilities (and reward completion, not just winning). I think British Eventing could learn quite a lot from the mass participation in running (albeit the barriers to participation are obvs much higher)

Edited to add - key difference is obviously that in horse sports we also need to have welfare of the horse as number 1 consideration. Obviously with athletics it is quite a bit simpler. This is where "have a go" and "well done for completing" need to be balanced against "is this ok for all of our participants, particularly those that don't have a voice"....


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## Kat (13 September 2021)

RachelFerd said:



			To go straight into a full-up 3* direct from what is well known to be a soft, if not *the* softest intermediate seems like a very odd choice.



I don't think we're totally at odds. It's a bit like me running half marathons a few years ago. I wasn't running to win, but I was running over a properly marked, stewarded and timed course in order to get a result that I was happy with (but was obviously never going to be fastest woman in the Great North Run!) - incidently, pretty much *all* running events in the UK are run under British Athletics licence. Nobody goes on about 'not being good enough to enter a licensed race' - they just enter licensed races at a distance that they think they can run, because that is what there is, and the races successfully cater for all capabilities (and reward completion, not just winning). I think British Eventing could learn quite a lot from the mass participation in running (albeit the barriers to participation are obvs much higher)

Edited to add - key difference is obviously that in horse sports we also need to have welfare of the horse as number 1 consideration. Obviously with athletics it is quite a bit simpler. This is where "have a go" and "well done for completing" need to be balanced against "is this ok for all of our participants, particularly those that don't have a voice"....
		
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I guess some of us might be happy doing park run rather than a half marathon race


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## RachelFerd (13 September 2021)

Kat said:



			I guess some of us might be happy doing park run rather than a half marathon race
		
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Well, Park Run is equivalent to a training event isn't it - not officially competitive, even if some people treat it fairly competitively! Definitely not comparable to eventing with the free entry fee though


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## iknowmyvalue (13 September 2021)

Just another thought. I guess the other advantage of BE events is the vet coverage. I’m fairly sure most of the BE events have some kind of vet on site or nearby on standby. When Rosie had her fatal rotational with me on board, I was incredibly grateful for that. Yes she was gone before they got there, but they were there in minutes, and had it not been almost instantly fatal I would have been even more grateful for the quick response. It could so easily have been an unaffiliated event, as they run them over the same course. It was only a BE90 and I’d been round the course unaffiliated at the same height multiple times. Plus I happen to know which vets they use and the practice itself is at 25-30mins away…


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## Velcrobum (14 September 2021)

iknowmyvalue said:



			Just another thought. I guess the other advantage of BE events is the vet coverage. I’m fairly sure most of the BE events have some kind of vet on site or nearby on standby. When Rosie had her fatal rotational with me on board, I was incredibly grateful for that. Yes she was gone before they got there, but they were there in minutes, and had it not been almost instantly fatal I would have been even more grateful for the quick response. It could so easily have been an unaffiliated event, as they run them over the same course. It was only a BE90 and I’d been round the course unaffiliated at the same height multiple times. Plus I happen to know which vets they use and the practice itself is at 25-30mins away…
		
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All BE events have Vets, Horse Ambulances, Doctors, Paramedics and Ambulances on site. It is this level of support/care provision that increases the cost of affiliated eventing. BE does take an affiliation fee from entries but that is small when provision of temporary infrastructure is taken into account.  However the Doctors and Vets get paid a very small amount aka they are subsidised volunteers. Paramedics are paid considerably more than highly qualified Doctors!!!! I have no knowledge about Horse ambulance costs.

Blenheim is an event I know very very well as I have volunteered there for many years my, OH was a Doctor there as well. On XC day there are 4 sectors each has a BE Steward, Doctor with resuscitation kit + necessary drugs, Paramedic staffed Ambulance, Vet with all their necessary drugs and a Horse Ambulance. There is also separate spectator first aid and  Doctor provision. If a competitor/spectator needs to go to A&E the local ambulance service is called in via 999. 

It was this level of care/support that led me to affiliated eventing many years ago having been to many rather dodgy hunter trials. I was also working in the NHS as a radiographer so was acutely aware of horse related nasty injuries!!


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## ester (14 September 2021)

I was discussing this at the weekend (with there just having been a horse fall team chasing and the horse stayed down- was ok in the end). I think most of the unaffiliated I have done (all at places that also ran BE) didn't have a doctor but did have the rest on site. I'd be interested in others experiences.


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## Roxylola (14 September 2021)

ester said:



			I was discussing this at the weekend (with there just having been a horse fall team chasing and the horse stayed down- was ok in the end). I think most of the unaffiliated I have done (all at places that also ran BE) didn't have a doctor but did have the rest on site. I'd be interested in others experiences.
		
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Belvoir? I did the fun class, we'd gone by that time but heard about it. Everywhere I've been un or aff for one days has all had vets and some medical support on sight. I don't recall a farrier at eland last year but I might just not have seen one. Less so with arena eventing but that's been at kelsall and I think they have a lot just based on site anyway


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## RachelFerd (14 September 2021)

Roxylola said:



			Belvoir? I did the fun class, we'd gone by that time but heard about it. Everywhere I've been un or aff for one days has all had vets and some medical support on sight. I don't recall a farrier at eland last year but I might just not have seen one. Less so with arena eventing but that's been at kelsall and I think they have a lot just based on site anyway
		
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Pretty much every time i've been teamchasing there has been a massive delay waiting for an air ambulance to come in. I mean, I love *doing* teamchasing, but the risk to horse and human life is preeeeety high, probably unjustiably so/?? But one of the people on my team worked in fundraising for the air ambulance for the region, so at least she was giving with one hand whilst taking away with the other!!!


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## ester (14 September 2021)

Roxylola said:



			Belvoir? I did the fun class, we'd gone by that time but heard about it. Everywhere I've been un or aff for one days has all had vets and some medical support on sight. I don't recall a farrier at eland last year but I might just not have seen one. Less so with arena eventing but that's been at kelsall and I think they have a lot just based on site anyway
		
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Yup  5/6 vehicles ended up with it (not sure who was who particuarly) and they got screens up very quick. I wasn't sure they would actually have them.


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## Roxylola (14 September 2021)

ester said:



			Yup  5/6 vehicles ended up with it (not sure who was who particuarly) and they got screens up very quick. I wasn't sure they would actually have them.
		
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My friends were very impressed how it was handled.
@RachelFerd  I don't think I could in good conscience ask a horse to do more than a novice competitively, it was a fantastic day but its so fast and challenging all round, of the inter we saw it seemed less than half the teams completed with 4 riders. At least one horse looked pretty sore after clambering through a hedge - Rider was clearly pulling up but even the walk looked ouchy


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## teapot (14 September 2021)

Velcrobum said:



			All BE events have Vets, Horse Ambulances, Doctors, Paramedics and Ambulances on site. It is this level of support/care provision that increases the cost of affiliated eventing. BE does take an affiliation fee from entries but that is small when provision of temporary infrastructure is taken into account.  However the Doctors and Vets get paid a very small amount aka they are subsidised volunteers. Paramedics are paid considerably more than highly qualified Doctors!!!! I have no knowledge about Horse ambulance costs.

Blenheim is an event I know very very well as I have volunteered there for many years my, OH was a Doctor there as well. On XC day there are 4 sectors each has a BE Steward, Doctor with resuscitation kit + necessary drugs, Paramedic staffed Ambulance, Vet with all their necessary drugs and a Horse Ambulance. There is also separate spectator first aid and  Doctor provision. If a competitor/spectator needs to go to A&E the local ambulance service is called in via 999.

It was this level of care/support that led me to affiliated eventing many years ago having been to many rather dodgy hunter trials. I was also working in the NHS as a radiographer so was acutely aware of horse related nasty injuries!!
		
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Are the paramedic costs higher because a lot of the time the cover is provided by private companies?


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## LEC (14 September 2021)

@RachelFerd  I don't think I could in good conscience ask a horse to do more than a novice competitively, it was a fantastic day but its so fast and challenging all round, of the inter we saw it seemed less than half the teams completed with 4 riders. At least one horse looked pretty sore after clambering through a hedge - Rider was clearly pulling up but even the walk looked ouchy[/QUOTE]

Team chasing does have an attrition rate but as its low key and not affiliated, nor are numbers kept about falls etc then its stays on the low. I will go round Intermediates at bogey speed but I would have to have a specialist horse for opens who truly loved the game.


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## Velcrobum (14 September 2021)

teapot said:



			Are the paramedic costs higher because a lot of the time the cover is provided by private companies?
		
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Not entirely sure it was my OH who told me that. Most of the paramedics working for the private companies are moonlighting on their days off!!


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## RachelFerd (14 September 2021)

LEC said:



			Team chasing does have an attrition rate but as its low key and not affiliated, nor are numbers kept about falls etc then its stays on the low. I will go round Intermediates at bogey speed but I would have to have a specialist horse for opens who truly loved the game.
		
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I'd say it isn't really technically unaffilaited, as all the events are run under the ausprices of the MFHA as a governing body. But since the MFHA isn't a member body of British Equestrian, and has no dotted line to the FEI, it is 'affiliated' in the absolute loosest term.

I've ridden round intermediate teamchases on my lovely event horse, who always gave me a very safe feeling as he was a careful and educated jumper and neither of us were major risk takers! I rode in a team with a bunch of people who were adequately prepared on equally suitable horses. It is however the world of the worst type of "have a go" riders, which are the "have a go riders, without any fear" - these are the truly dangerous lot. The attrition rate in teamchasing would probably relate more to the absence of any qualifying regime or MER process. It is 'ok' so long as it bubbles away in the background and stays on the low. Mass participation in teamchasing would result in it having to change quite drastically!


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## abb123 (14 September 2021)

As an outsider, who is a keen attendee to the larger events, has a perfectly capable horse, and who's instructors (eventers) keep trying to get to have a go but doesn't want to ..I thought my thoughts might be relevant.

Normally, I can never understand why events are always balloted and yet not enough events seem to be on. Seems to be a constant gripe by eventers. To me this seems to suggest a big problem is the calendar itself - clashes, not spread out enough etc. Added to this year by covid and weather last minute cancellations and difficulties in getting money back - I would be reluctant to book myself in too!

For the newbie it is very daunting. I didn't come from a horsey family (most eventers seem to to me?) and didn't really have a clue where to start so never got into it. If you have a smart pony and a supportive mum that has evented then it is much more approachable. If you have never done it before then it is totally overwhelming.

The 80 is too big for me as a starting point, especially with the brush fences that are super scary. I'm perfectly capable of showjumping 1m+ but for some reason the xc jumps scare me more (I can canter down a hill by the way..).

It is a lot of money and time to commit to. I'm affiliated in dressage and showjumping but there is always something on, always something reasonably local, and always can get enough outings to make affiliation worthwhile. Also I can do it quite reasonably on my own - it always seems like you need a team of helpers for eventing but again that might be because I do not have a clue.

Put that all together and i think you have to be really committed to it in order to make affiliating worthwhile in a way that a lot of people just can't these days. It is easier to just do the farm rides or the xc at camps, or a local unaffiliated event/HT..

I quite like the arena eventing that Kelsall does all summer - course of showjumps and xc jumps so you can do a good course and you can hire it out easily. They start at 70cm, so a bit less scary. You never know - if I can enjoy going round that I might actually take the plunge one day!


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## ester (14 September 2021)

RachelFerd said:



			I'd say it isn't really technically unaffilaited, as all the events are run under the ausprices of the MFHA as a governing body. But since the MFHA isn't a member body of British Equestrian, and has no dotted line to the FEI, it is 'affiliated' in the absolute loosest term.

I've ridden round intermediate teamchases on my lovely event horse, who always gave me a very safe feeling as he was a careful and educated jumper and neither of us were major risk takers! I rode in a team with a bunch of people who were adequately prepared on equally suitable horses. It is however the world of the worst type of "have a go" riders, which are the "have a go riders, without any fear" - these are the truly dangerous lot. The attrition rate in teamchasing would probably relate more to the absence of any qualifying regime or MER process. It is 'ok' so long as it bubbles away in the background and stays on the low. Mass participation in teamchasing would result in it having to change quite drastically!
		
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You forgot to mention the pre-match alcohol intake in order to reduce said fear


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## shortstuff99 (14 September 2021)

Not sure if anyone has seen the press release from BS about competing in unsanctioned events. Someone had posted that BS had said unaffiliated could only go up to 100cm. Wondered how that impacted riding club and pony club or trailblazers that go above 100cm.


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## spacefaer (14 September 2021)

Velcrobum said:



			Not entirely sure it was my OH who told me that. Most of the paramedics working for the private companies are moonlighting on their days off!!
		
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I was secretary for our local point to point and it was a nightmare getting medical cover. It's expensive - think a couple of thousand for the day - and we had to book a private company who provided all the medical cover. Two ambulances, doctors, paramedics etc.  
Our main issue was that the doctors were all hospital doctors and had to have done a specialist trauma course - which not all doctors have done - and they need to be off duty on the day of the meeting. With shift changes etc it was impossible to know until a few days before who would be available, and they had to be approved by the BHA. 
A bit of a nightmare!


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## Velcrobum (14 September 2021)

spacefaer said:



			I was secretary for our local point to point and it was a nightmare getting medical cover. It's expensive - think a couple of thousand for the day - and we had to book a private company who provided all the medical cover. Two ambulances, doctors, paramedics etc. 
Our main issue was that the doctors were all hospital doctors and had to have done a specialist trauma course - which not all doctors have done - and they need to be off duty on the day of the meeting. With shift changes etc it was impossible to know until a few days before who would be available, and they had to be approved by the BHA.
A bit of a nightmare!
		
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My OH when asked to cover point to points was an Anaesthetics/ITU senior consultant and had done an intensive specialist trauma course but the P2P governing body deemed him unsuitable! He was not asking to be paid just fed and watered and was providing the "required resus equipment and drugs" his only requirement was being reimbursed for any drugs and disposables he used.


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## RachelFerd (14 September 2021)

shortstuff99 said:



			Not sure if anyone has seen the press release from BS about competing in unsanctioned events. Someone had posted that BS had said unaffiliated could only go up to 100cm. Wondered how that impacted riding club and pony club or trailblazers that go above 100cm.
		
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I've seen keysoe's references to it, but not the release itself. Do you have a link?


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## teapot (15 September 2021)

Just had the BD South and SE newsletter through - range of things to get involved with/do over the winter months, does BE offer that?


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## ycbm (15 September 2021)

shortstuff99 said:



			Someone had posted that BS had said unaffiliated could only go up to 100cm.
		
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How can BS mandate what classes are run at an unaffiliated event?  Have I misunderstood?


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## shortstuff99 (15 September 2021)

RachelFerd said:



			I've seen keysoe's references to it, but not the release itself. Do you have a link?
		
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No it was an email. Not 100% sure what is going on really.


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## shortstuff99 (15 September 2021)

ycbm said:



			How can BS mandate what classes are run at an unaffiliated event?  Have I misunderstood?
		
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I don't think they can 🤷‍♀️, but it has been mentioned that people could be banned for 6 months if found to be competing at an unsanctioned event.


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## Bernster (15 September 2021)

I was wondering that, do they even have the power to do that?


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## The Fuzzy Furry (15 September 2021)

Bernster said:



			I was wondering that, do they even have the power to do that?
		
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If it was a member,  then quite possibly,  depending on the rulebook  (I haven't seen their rulebook).
If not in the rules, then no, they cannot.


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## sportsmansB (15 September 2021)

I am a grassroots amateur but EI rather than BE 
We don't run 80's over here except at a few venues which already have suitable small jumps in place 
I do 90's and 100's on an ex int horse. It is my choice to stay at those heights, I almost moved up to novice a few years ago with another horse but lost her before I ahd the chance. I have no notion of doing that now. HOWEVER I'd like to think that if someone saw me from a distance while I was on course that I wouldn't look that different to other competent people in higher classes. I work hard to make sure both me and my horse are fit enough and ready for the test in front of us. 

I don't think 80 should be a BE height to be honest. Affiliated competition used to be something which people aspired to, and you would always have been competing unaff a height higher than you would go out aff (in both SJ and eventing). It is like offering a walk trot test at BD- do they do that? 

I don't compete unaff as I like the comfort of knowing there is an ambulance, that the course has been built by someone accredited, that the portables are all correctly secured, etc. My horse also doesn't like thrown together fences, he's used to proper ones and it makes him super spooky... 
We don't have enough people over here for there to be a big unaff alternative in terms of full events- there are a lot of 2 phase (SJ & XC) and Derby type things. My heart is in my mouth watching some of the combinations at these though they are good for getting going and getting a mini xc experience. I use them at the start of the season to get going but wouldn't risk my horse on chancy ground at them just for fun. 
Are there many 2 phases in England? Maybe thats a way of the BE venues being able to offer something to boost their revenues but not in direct competition.


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## teapot (15 September 2021)

sportsmansB said:



			I don't think 80 should be a BE height to be honest. Affiliated competition used to be something which people aspired to, and you would always have been competing unaff a height higher than you would go out aff (in both SJ and eventing). It is like offering a walk trot test at BD- do they do that?
		
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Yup they do - called Intro and only three available tests currently.


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## sportsmansB (15 September 2021)

teapot said:



			Yup they do - called Intro.
		
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There is nothing really aspirational about that is there. Its a shame. I don't know if dressage ireland do that too. 
I think its great to get a baby horse out to a small local venue, don't get me wrong, but I don't see that its a good addition to aff competition


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## milliepops (15 September 2021)

in fairness Intro is highly restrictive, there's no championships and you can very quickly ride yourself out of eligibility if you have any ambition at other levels at all.


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## teapot (15 September 2021)

sportsmansB said:



			There is nothing really aspirational about that is there. Its a shame. I don't know if dressage ireland do that too.
I think its great to get a baby horse out to a small local venue, don't get me wrong, but I don't see that its a good addition to aff competition
		
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They do: https://www.dressageireland.ie/regions/dressage-ireland-tests/intro-tests

Interesting, Intro C includes canter.

As MP says, Intro is somewhat limited at BD, and with only three tests it can get dull very quickly. I _can_ understand why someone would take their youngster out to BD for a walk & trot when it means (or should do) better surfaces, slightly more organisation, and less carnage than some local unaffiliated venues...

I used the Intro tests in an old job for clients, got a BD judge in, and clients soon asked for prelim as an option. They found some of them easier!


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## DabDab (15 September 2021)

sportsmansB said:



			I am a grassroots amateur but EI rather than BE
We don't run 80's over here except at a few venues which already have suitable small jumps in place
I do 90's and 100's on an ex int horse. It is my choice to stay at those heights, I almost moved up to novice a few years ago with another horse but lost her before I ahd the chance. I have no notion of doing that now. HOWEVER I'd like to think that if someone saw me from a distance while I was on course that I wouldn't look that different to other competent people in higher classes. I work hard to make sure both me and my horse are fit enough and ready for the test in front of us.

I don't think 80 should be a BE height to be honest. Affiliated competition used to be something which people aspired to, and you would always have been competing unaff a height higher than you would go out aff (in both SJ and eventing). It is like offering a walk trot test at BD- do they do that?

I don't compete unaff as I like the comfort of knowing there is an ambulance, that the course has been built by someone accredited, that the portables are all correctly secured, etc. My horse also doesn't like thrown together fences, he's used to proper ones and it makes him super spooky...
We don't have enough people over here for there to be a big unaff alternative in terms of full events- there are a lot of 2 phase (SJ & XC) and Derby type things. My heart is in my mouth watching some of the combinations at these though they are good for getting going and getting a mini xc experience. I use them at the start of the season to get going but wouldn't risk my horse on chancy ground at them just for fun.
Are there many 2 phases in England? Maybe thats a way of the BE venues being able to offer something to boost their revenues but not in direct competition.
		
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A lot of unaffiliated events are very well run now. Certainly the ones that I help out at have horse ambulance, human ambulance and well built xc course.

This is the problem, and the reason a lot of people are choosing UA over affiliated.


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## RachelFerd (15 September 2021)

sportsmansB said:



			Affiliated competition used to be something which people aspired to,
		
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This is where I really disagree - competition is something that people should aspire to, and if affiliated competition is the safest and best environment, why not make all competition as good and safe, at every level? There's no need it for it to be aspirational.


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## sportsmansB (15 September 2021)

RachelFerd said:



			This is where I really disagree - competition is something that people should aspire to, and if affiliated competition is the safest and best environment, why not make all competition as good and safe, at every level? There's no need it for it to be aspirational.
		
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I mean more in terms of versus the small local competitions, which were seen as a stepping stone, not an alternative. 

FWIW I agree, I think everyone should train until they are fit and safe and competent enough to go around a reasonable level of competition. 
The problem is that the current attitude of everyone wanting to be able to do everything and it being seen as discriminatory in some way if they can't, means that won't happen. It'll be discrimination against people who can't afford lessons, and everyone should be able to potentially wreck themselves for the sake of political correctness and 'fairness'


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## TPO (15 September 2021)

RachelFerd said:



			This is where I really disagree - competition is something that people should aspire to, and if affiliated competition is the safest and best environment, why not make all competition as good and safe, at every level? There's no need it for it to be aspirational.
		
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Aspire is probably the right and wrong word. Maybe attain? As in affiliated was a standard to be attained through putting the work in?

Although that way of thinking seems to hard back to the rose tinted days when there was a structure in place via RC to work up the lower levels to end up at a standard* to compete at an affiliated level.

*by standard I guess I mean safe and capable.

Whereas now BE isn't the pinnacle, so to speak, because they themselves have lowered their entry requirements to 80cm. Even still there are often complaints about fences being too difficult in an 80/90 course.

The main driver for unaff appears to be cost. So really BE have to be looking at a tiered system BUT on the other hand to provide the necessary support/coaching/stewarding would probably mean that 80/90 would cost more. Its more likely to be those heights that need more supervision?

Borrowing slightly from the French system I do think some sort of stamped card to ok you to compete BE would be a good idea. The uphill/downhill riding would be the second stage after showing in a school that they could ride all paces, control strides between 2 poles and jump a small short course on the flat demonstrating control of pace/the off and that the rider can sit in balance on the flat and over a fence.

As an observer I'm really sick seeing horses back teeth pulled out (usually while their mouth is tied shut) while the rider is a county behind the horse over a fence.

I do understand why RC is unappealing (cliques!) and why being an "eventer" is very appealing but I don't think it should be a right. As in I want to event so I'm going BE end off

Admittedly having one governing body from sticks on the ground to 5* would make that easier to police. That would require BE to work with current organisers as they don't always seem to make a good job of that?

Do BE even want to do away with unaff??


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## RachelFerd (15 September 2021)

TPO said:



			Do BE even want to do away with unaff??
		
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Well, I suspect they don't when  it provides a useful pipeline of people to enter into the sport. But given that the recent development seems to have provided a more extensive pipeline to keep people out of the affiliated sport, I think their view may be evolving.

But this definitely isn't *just* a BE thing, it seems like there is stuff bubbling away on the BS side too. Funnily enough, BD seems to be the more stable one. But then it does genuinely provide opportunities for all to qualify for lots of different things.


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## shortstuff99 (15 September 2021)

On that line, BD don't allow their tests to be used in online competitions unless you pay them a registration fee.


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## TPO (15 September 2021)

I think availability of competitions count too.

The Scottish BE calendar is pretty dire and has lost lots of events. 

There are a few HT but I can't think of an unaff ODE off the top of my head and definitely no 3 day unaff.

So if you want a decent season just of "doing" a lot of people would do unaff and aff.

However in certain parts of England there is a lot more going on unaff wise so if its cheaper to spend a season doing unaff 60-90 courses over BE tracks it's a no brained? Especially with the change to the GR Badders qualifications now taking 2 years and lack of anything else to aim for?

Plus the difference between possibly wining cold hard cash vs a hoofpick 😬


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## milliepops (15 September 2021)

I think the split between BD and unaff dressage is probably still similar to the old relationship between RC/PC ODEs and BE

If you're interested in progressing your training, riding at a higher level and getting feedback from trained judges then the leap to affiliate is an obvious step.  I remember a judge putting that i should affiliate in the comments of the last unaff test i rode    The offer at BD is not equalled by the unaff scene in many areas. Even in super horsey Gloucestershire unaff competitions above elementary are pretty much non existent. it's like when BE started at Novice. if you want to ride at Medium + you have to affiliate.

of course the quality of unaff competition has improved as more people see value in using listed judges etc but there are still lots of low level *fun* shows judged by randoms for those who just want to have a go


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## DabDab (15 September 2021)

See I think the reason that BD does better out of the grass roots stuff is because they have done quite a good job of making those levels aspirational - not in a can you reach the level kind of way, but aspirational in the sense of having plenty for people who want to stay at a level but still have championship opportunities and the opportunity to develop and get better at that level. 

I certainly know plenty of people who compete at Novice, Elementary or Medium with no desire for higher levels but enjoy doing the BD circuit thing and training at those levels.


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## milliepops (15 September 2021)

oh yeah I agree. I just mean there's a clear driver to affiliate still, because of the offer which unaff can't meet, possibly because BD have successfully cornered the market? Round my way even the elem classes where they are offered unaff are not exactly hot competition at most venues, so if you are an ambitious grass roots rider unaff starts to feel a bit pointless?


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## Jango (15 September 2021)

I think a big difference between BD and BE/BS is safety. If I tried to get my horse round a medium test we would score about 40%, but neither of us would be in any danger. Whereas if we tried to jump a BE100 track we could both get seriously hurt. 

I think the issues with BE entries are probably a collection of different issues for different people. I think they need to really ask not only their membership but turn up at some decent unaff events and ask for feedback on why not BE (all round the country not just the south!). Ultimately cost is going to be a huge factor, but there is plenty they could do to attract 1 horse, BE80/90/100 amateurs if they wanted to. Tiered membership, local leagues, decent prizes etc. I am planning to do 5 X ODEs next year at 80, maybe 90 level. Probably a mix of unaff and affiliated depending on dates, the ground, how we are progressing. Even if I did 4 X BEs (day ticket limit) there is literally no benefit for me to join, I'm financially better on tickets, if my horse goes lame I haven't lost the membership money. If we did qualify for a championship I could just join then to attend. There must be lots of people like me who want to event, but can't afford/don't have the time to commit their entire summer to it.

When I used to do dressage it made sense to affiliate, as the standard is just so much higher, there's loads to qualify for, prize money and I would ride approx 1 X competition a month all year round, plus I did regionals and area festivals. The high BE fees but the relatively short season (realistically for working amateurs April to sept 6 months) doesn't compare favourably to BS and BD.


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## DabDab (15 September 2021)

Oh yeah definitely. Elementary unaffiliated is more of a practice for BD kind of gig I think. 

Although, while not wanting to take anything away from the work that BD have done in that respect, I suppose they don't have the safety/welfare element to deal with in the same way.


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## ycbm (15 September 2021)

shortstuff99 said:



			On that line, BD don't allow their tests to be used in online competitions unless you pay them a registration fee.
		
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That's fair enough they own the copyright,  but you can make up a new dressage test easily.  A show jumping round is a show jumping round, surely you you can't protect that when there aren't any BS approved course plans?  
.


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## ycbm (15 September 2021)

shortstuff99 said:



			I don't think they can 🤷‍♀️, but it has been mentioned that people could be banned for 6 months if found to be competing at an unsanctioned event.
		
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I seriously doubt if they have that power legally.  I'd like to see that tested.  Maybe instead they should be spending their energies trying to work out why people want to compete unaffiliated and addressing those problems.  

For BE it seems clear,  it's all about the cost.  For me, BD is the same,  I just can't see the point of paying the additional five to ten quid per test,  plus affiliation fees,  until I want points and that wouldn't be until I'm at least doing a competent medium.  
.


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## shortstuff99 (15 September 2021)

ycbm said:



			I seriously doubt if they have that power legally.  I'd like to see that tested.  Maybe instead they should be spending their energies trying to work out why people want to compete unaffiliated and addressing those problems. 

For BE it seems clear,  it's all about the cost.  For me, BD is the same,  I just can't see the point of paying the additional five to ten quid per test,  plus affiliation fees,  until I want points and that wouldn't be until I'm at least doing a competent medium. 
.
		
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They're doing it behind the FEI rule, I think it would be hard to enforce for riders that aren't FEI registered.


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## LEC (16 September 2021)

milliepops said:



			I think the split between BD and unaff dressage is probably still similar to the old relationship between RC/PC ODEs and BE

If you're interested in progressing your training, riding at a higher level and getting feedback from trained judges then the leap to affiliate is an obvious step.  I remember a judge putting that i should affiliate in the comments of the last unaff test i rode    The offer at BD is not equalled by the unaff scene in many areas. Even in super horsey Gloucestershire unaff competitions above elementary are pretty much non existent. it's like when BE started at Novice. if you want to ride at Medium + you have to affiliate.

of course the quality of unaff competition has improved as more people see value in using listed judges etc but there are still lots of low level *fun* shows judged by randoms for those who just want to have a go
		
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as someone who has never done BD but competes pretty regularly at all the other aff disciplines - I agree, though round here you can do unaff at Adv - med. There are a lot of small series at unaff dr but nothing big and bold like cotswold cup did for eventing. I think due to amount of champs BD offers nobody picks up the mantle on dr. Trail blazers a bit but that seems quite localised.


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## Old school (16 September 2021)

We have an Unaff ODE venue not too far from us, it used to be an EI venue. Love the Unaff ODE, can do all three phases with 45 mins of dressage time, if you wish. Attended 3 EI events this season , XC at 6:30 in the evening, for 2 of them. One venue only had 150 entrants.  Mind boggling. 7 hours at the venue. Nuts. 

Fence judging too is a nightmare for these ridiculously long days at Aff.  But the insight you get fence judging at EI is eye opening. There is significant lack of sharpness about getting things done properly first time. Every event seems to be their first one. No lessons learnt or improvements re running the events are made.

Finally, the ground management knowledge is abysmal. Both competitors and officials seem clueless. The outcome is one EI ODE cancelled this weekend due to lack of entries. With the mix of the above, it is not surprising.


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## RachelFerd (16 September 2021)

So as an update to this thread - I had the opportunity to have a chat with Helen as new BE Chief Exec and feel very reassured that she's got an excellent vision for making proactive changes to the way things are done - potentially addressing lots of the issues raised on this thread. Rome wasn't built in a day etc. but I certainly feel much more positive about the future of the sport I love


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## Old school (16 September 2021)

Sorry, to re-interrupt from a district outside of BE. Did I read that you might have an ERQI system on its way to you in UK? I see the value of it here in EI, but I do think that venues and stewarding should also be rated. That is not a popular opinion when I have voiced it. But if horse and riders are expected to be of a certain standard, in a commercial agreement when we make an entry, so too should the venue and the organisation's representatives. Here is it is very much a weight born by the competitor and no-one else. Lack of balance and lack of transparency allows for indifference.


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## RachelFerd (16 September 2021)

Old school said:



			Sorry, to re-interrupt from a district outside of BE. Did I read that you might have an ERQI system on its way to you in UK? I see the value of it here in EI, but I do think that venues and stewarding should also be rated. That is not a popular opinion when I have voiced it. But if horse and riders are expected to be of a certain standard, in a commercial agreement when we make an entry, so too should the venue and the organisation's representatives. Here is it is very much a weight born by the competitor and no-one else. Lack of balance and lack of transparency allows for indifference.
		
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Not that i'm aware of. We have a much more limited version of the ERQI system, which is the 'continued performance requirements' - meaning if you get eliminated (for anything other than a techincal elimination) twice in a row at any level you have to move back down a level and gain an MER before moving back up. If the Es are at BE80 level then you need to be signed off by a BE approved coach.

And I don't really share any specific worries about venues and stewarding on this side - i've very rarely had any real reason to be annoyed by the venues or stewarding on this island!


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## MagicMelon (21 September 2021)

Im in Aberdeenshire, we barely have any BE up here anymore, its certainly not worth joining unless you're willing to travel at least 3 hours to the central belt. I think a lot of people stuggled through covid and perhaps dont have the spare money and time to spend on trips like this anymore. Personally, I have a young horse so I need some unaffilated ODE's under out belt first, BE entries are more expensive so I feel I need to know I can generally get round without being eliminated before even considering it. Up here, we had Burgie BE last weekend (which I didnt do as horse not ready for 80), Im doing the RC ODE there at the weekend instead which has a 70 class and is £30 cheaper. I find RC just more relaxed and low key, great for young horses to start with. There's so few ODE's up here full stop though, I havent seen any other RC ODE's in my area this year, perhaps they just dont advertise them well, I dont know but its very hard to get a young horse out on runs with so little choice.


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## ycbm (27 November 2021)

Just spotted this in the news.

It does seem to me that the new Chief Exec is understanding the issues,  though perhaps she doesn't understand what "subsidise" means if she thinks more members paying more fees is somehow BE then subsidising the sport if it spends those fees.

https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/british-eventing-agm-2021-770503


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## ester (27 November 2021)

Interesting the multiple IT constraint mentions, didn't they spend quite a lot on that 

If no abandonment premium does that mean no insurance? Might have said more in the email to members than what hho gives on that?


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## teapot (27 November 2021)

ester said:



			Interesting the multiple IT constraint mentions, didn't they spend quite a lot on that 

If no abandonment premium does that mean no insurance? Might have said more in the email to members than what hho gives on that?
		
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It was, in some detail. There's a 180 odd comment thread in the Twitereventing fb group about it!


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## ester (27 November 2021)

Ah I don't do TE.


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## LEC (30 November 2021)

The problem with TE is it’s full of people who don’t actually event so their opinions are IMO not valid. I do actually event, so currently pulling data to decide on how I feel about this subject!


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## Roxylola (30 November 2021)

I'm a bit on the fence about this latest. Not that I event a great deal (not BE anyway), mainly as I can't afford to.
There's at least one in May I won't risk entering with the new set up. I'd take likely ground conditions in to consideration anyway with my entries but even more so now.
Does anyone know why they ballot so early? It's not like times are published well in advance or anything. Personally if the ballot was at 2 weeks I'd feel happier about the change to the abandonment process - at least then I could look at the long range forecast. 
Last May we were entered for somerford, when I entered before ballot we'd had a very dry spell, but then a couple of weeks before we started getting a lot of rain. In the end they abandoned but wet doesn't suit us so I probably wouldn't have entered if I'd been able to wait a bit longer


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## LEC (30 November 2021)

They tell us they ballot early to ensure viability of the event. Tbh the whole system pisses me off.
Though admittedly I was entering some unaff ODES up to 2 months in advance but they had a fair WD policy and abandonment.


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## Roxylola (30 November 2021)

I'll enter happily well in advance on that basis - I prefer to book early if I can but not at risk of losing everything due to the weather


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## teapot (30 November 2021)

LEC said:



			The problem with TE is it’s full of people who don’t actually event so their opinions are IMO not valid. I do actually event, so currently pulling data to decide on how I feel about this subject!
		
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Oh it's a complete mother's meeting, but there is some sense in there if you dig deep enough. 

What I find interesting is all the 'but BE never abandons'. Hmmm go onto the BE facebook page and search for the word 'abandon', either 2019 was a bad year weather wise, or they do abandon more than people are willing to accept. 

As a complete outsider too, I do wonder where it stands under consumer law for paying for something, it gets cancelled, you get nothing back...


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## LEC (30 November 2021)

teapot said:



			Oh it's a complete mother's meeting, but there is some sense in there if you dig deep enough.

What I find interesting is all the 'but BE never abandons'. Hmmm go onto the BE facebook page and search for the word 'abandon', either 2019 was a bad year weather wise, or they do abandon more than people are willing to accept.

As a complete outsider too, I do wonder where it stands under consumer law for paying for something, it gets cancelled, you get nothing back...
		
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This is why I am pulling data on it. Mine will be based on the SW as thats where I live and know well. I am going back to 2016 currently


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## RachelFerd (30 November 2021)

I emailed in support of retaining AI. I can't think of anything that will put off newish members more than entering an event and never seeing a penny of it again. 

Being based in the soggy NW abandonment rates are definitely higher here than in the east of England. So I'd definitely be disproportionately impacted.


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## Roxylola (30 November 2021)

I've seen a few times people saying if you put the saving you're making on insurance to one side it will cover your entry fees if anything I'd abandoned. Which might be the case if you have 6 or more events amd only 1 abandons. I don't enter 6, last year I entered 2 BE  of which one abandoned the evening before due to rain


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## ihatework (30 November 2021)

I think the removal of AI may be the death of some early/late events in notoriously wet areas. I’d imagine decreased entries meaning possibly that the events just aren’t viable. Will be interesting to see how it plays out.

My view is we will see a reduced calendar a few years from now, more reliance on arena Eventing. More pros will base in Europe for early qualifications. C’est la vie.

I certainly don’t get excited about trucking to Aston or Tweseldown any more!!!!


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## RachelFerd (30 November 2021)

ihatework said:



			I think the removal of AI may be the death of some early/late events in notoriously wet areas. I’d imagine decreased entries meaning possibly that the events just aren’t viable. Will be interesting to see how it plays out.

My view is we will see a reduced calendar a few years from now, more reliance on arena Eventing. More pros will base in Europe for early qualifications. C’est la vie.

I certainly don’t get excited about trucking to Aston or Tweseldown any more!!!!
		
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Some of that early prep stuff has to exist for pathway to big events (eg Badminton) ... But equally applicable at the mid levels - ie. I'll need them to prep for my aim of Chatsworth.
 Then again, those qualified for Badminton GR also need prep runs.. perhaps BE80 could be scaled back to a late April start to avoid the wrath of abandonments?

I'd also support a more flexible approach to rescheduling cancelled events and carrying over entries - and for early season events to be able to adapt and run more on a surface.


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## teapot (30 November 2021)

RachelFerd said:



			I'd also support a more flexible approach to rescheduling cancelled events and carrying over entries - and for early season events to be able to adapt and run more on a surface.
		
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Let me guess, BE would say monitoring who's owed what credit from x event would be impossible to do? Even though a basic IT system could easily do so? (hahahaha...)


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## ihatework (30 November 2021)

RachelFerd said:



			Some of that early prep stuff has to exist for pathway to big events (eg Badminton) ... But equally applicable at the mid levels - ie. I'll need them to prep for my aim of Chatsworth.
Then again, those qualified for Badminton GR also need prep runs.. perhaps BE80 could be scaled back to a late April start to avoid the wrath of abandonments?

I'd also support a more flexible approach to rescheduling cancelled events and carrying over entries - and for early season events to be able to adapt and run more on a surface.
		
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Exactly, it will be interesting to see how it plays out. I think we will see less events over time, early season - particularly at lower levels.


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## LEC (30 November 2021)

I have looked at the SW and splitting out March vs April alone has a big difference. March you have a 62% chance of running in the SW vs 80% in April. The data is skewed as well as 2020 was terrible in March but this has been hidden behind Covid as everything cancelled. I used to enter late events but now will not even bother trying until April. Over the years I have not been too badly hit by cancellation and abandonment but I also have enough experience to know what events to enter. Sept/Oct are pretty reliable running at 82%. I didn't bother to split them out for that reason. 2019 was a bad year for cancelling but it looks like a blip. 

Its a bit of a mess really and I am not sure they have looked at the big picture with how this will impact entries. Also having to enter 6 weeks in advance will be a swine. The cancellation policy is watery and weak after the ballot date. Plus the psyche of events if they have the entries is to try and run so lots make late decisions on it, and so it should be.


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## Elf On A Shelf (30 November 2021)

I do not see how BE can justify keeping full entry fees if they abandon. It is not done in any other form of event - equine or not! It's just plain cheeky expecting people to cough up the cash regardless! 

And how many organisers will cancel for barely passable reasons just because they already have the money?


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## BronsonNutter (30 November 2021)

If abandonment insurance is scrapped, I'd hope they'd bring in something like a transfer system where your entry could be moved to another event, or the event rescheduled? However, this is BE...


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## ycbm (30 November 2021)

I wrote this on the other thread. 

I am  trying to remember back 20 years.  There were a tiny number of events in April or October. If an event was cancelled my recollection is they kept some of the entry fee but not all.

Then insurance was introduced and more events that were very early and very late or ran on very risky ground were scheduled because the organisers knew they would be compensated if they were cancelled.

And that resulted in the crazy situation where every single entry is £15 more expensive to cover the cancellation insurance of events that have a way above average chance of being cancelled,  many of which should probably  never have been allowed in the schedule in the first place.

If removing insurance results in people not entering events which are likely to have to cancel,  then I think that will probably be more fair for the sport overall.


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## LEC (30 November 2021)

[QUOTE="ycbm, post: 14780434, member: 118895"
Then insurance was introduced and more events that were very early and very late or ran on very risky ground were scheduled because the organisers knew they would be compensated if they were cancelled.

And that resulted in the crazy situation where every single entry is £15 more expensive to cover the cancellation insurance of events that have a way above average chance of being cancelled,  many of which should probably  never have been allowed in the schedule in the first place.[/QUOTE]

BE used to cover the cost of organisers cancelling through their own insurance. Then there was a terrible year - cannot remember which but lots cancelled so hence BE couldn’t afford to subsidise it and looked to riders covering insurance.


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## teapot (2 December 2021)

Entries might be even lower after latest updates... 

https://www.britisheventing.com/news/british-eventing-2022-membership-restructure


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## Bernster (3 December 2021)

I saw that but wasn’t really sure what the impact would be. Not good at maths!  Seems like the main membership was quite expensive, but pay as you go might suit a casual person like me if I ever get to the lofty heights of 80. Then I couldn’t work out what the total cost for me would be over a year!  Not that I tried very hard mind you…


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## RachelFerd (3 December 2021)

I think PAYG looks great value and will significantly reduce costs for those intending to do less than 10 events in a year - with no hard ceiling on their use as there was with the day ticket system.

There's quite a bit if noise from people who think that 3* one-horse amateurs are being shafted - but the reality is that it's a tiny tiny corner of the market, and why should 80/90 riders be paying the same as them.

I'm pretty sure that new membership structure is going to boost participation when the dust settles.


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## Roxylola (3 December 2021)

I've found it a bit confusing re PAYG and qualifying for things. I can't see it made clear anywhere, but I'm assuming it will work like BD where you can get your qualifying scores then upgrade your membership to go to champs. 

At the moment it all seems a bit confusing tbh, and I'm not anticipating any significant saving anywhere. Which as people seemed to be saying at grassroots they were choosing unaffiliated because of costs I can't see this making much difference.


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## YorkshireLady (3 December 2021)

i think that if you do 10 events and you are 80 or 90 you are better off as a full member. if you are 5 events a year PAYG is great. 

I think its interesting that the first level membership is now cheaper than BD. I am not sure this is right really!


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## LEC (3 December 2021)

RachelFerd said:



			I think PAYG looks great value and will significantly reduce costs for those intending to do less than 10 events in a year - with no hard ceiling on their use as there was with the day ticket system.

There's quite a bit if noise from people who think that 3* one-horse amateurs are being shafted - but the reality is that it's a tiny tiny corner of the market, and why should 80/90 riders be paying the same as them.

I'm pretty sure that new membership structure is going to boost participation when the dust settles.
		
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Also the saving is £23 on overall horse and rider membership so not that great TBH. I know you are a big advocate for BE but I am at the moment looking at this and thinking what is the point? The costs keep going up and my love of the sport does not go up exponentially with it. Actually it has decreased with the loss of special events.

So I have worked out at 80/90 if you did 8 runs in a year it would cost you £24 a run in membership alone.


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## RachelFerd (3 December 2021)

RachelFerd said:



			I think PAYG looks great value and will significantly reduce costs for those intending to do less than 10 events in a year - with no hard ceiling on their use as there was with the day ticket system.

There's quite a bit if noise from people who think that 3* one-horse amateurs are being shafted - but the reality is that it's a tiny tiny corner of the market, and why should 80/90 riders be paying the same as them.

I'm pretty sure that new membership structure is going to boost participation when the dust settles.
		
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LEC said:



			Also the saving is £23 on overall horse and rider membership so not that great TBH. I know you are a big advocate for BE but I am at the moment looking at this and thinking what is the point? The costs keep going up and my love of the sport does not go up exponentially with it. Actually it has decreased with the loss of special events.

So I have worked out at 80/90 if you did 8 runs in a year it would cost you £24 a run in membership alone.
		
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But that's not any more than now is it? it is a saving on now (especially given that with AIP gone you're also saving £7 per entry up to 105 level).  So, dependent on events not cancelling, it does make sport a fair bit cheaper. 

I'm an advocate for BE because without an sporting body, there will be no structured sport - so I am fairly invested in wanting it to work out because I like doing this sport and want to keep doing it.


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## Roxylola (3 December 2021)

I've just seen a response from BE to someone who raised concerns about the increased costs above grassroots. 
In summary, it looks like they're addressing the reduction in grassroots because that's what they've seem the biggest loss of entries in. I see two issues with this, first it's still significantly more expensive than unaffiliated (and more complicated to enter with tickets, membership etc)
Secondly grassroots riders do have alternative events to enter, up the levels there aren't unaffiliated events to enter so it's BE or nothing. 
I think there are riders now who may look to change discipline as a result of this. In BS if you've got a decent jumper there's good money to be won, a horse with nice flatwork stands a chance of at least winning their entry back at BD, both disciplines continue year round, plenty of indoor venues etc. There's also team chasing, hunting etc as XC alternatives. 
It seems to be perhaps better suited to pros with multiple horses if you're going to try and move up levels now, for a one horse person wanting to do 2 or 3 runs at inter the reduction in price I don't think will outweigh the loss if a venue abandons - obviously if you're doing more it potentially would. 
I think they could find they lose more with these changes though, they've tried to address costs at grassroots but not by enough imo especially to outweigh the risk of losing all due to abandonment. And it's hitting those competing higher up who have stuck by eventing for love of the sport and are at a high enough level to not have unaffiliated alternatives.


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## RachelFerd (3 December 2021)

Roxylola said:



			I've just seen a response from BE to someone who raised concerns about the increased costs above grassroots.
In summary, it looks like they're addressing the reduction in grassroots because that's what they've seem the biggest loss of entries in. I see two issues with this, first it's still significantly more expensive than unaffiliated (and more complicated to enter with tickets, membership etc)
Secondly grassroots riders do have alternative events to enter, up the levels there aren't unaffiliated events to enter so it's BE or nothing.
I think there are riders now who may look to change discipline as a result of this. In BS if you've got a decent jumper there's good money to be won, a horse with nice flatwork stands a chance of at least winning their entry back at BD, both disciplines continue year round, plenty of indoor venues etc. There's also team chasing, hunting etc as XC alternatives.
It seems to be perhaps better suited to pros with multiple horses if you're going to try and move up levels now, for a one horse person wanting to do 2 or 3 runs at inter the reduction in price I don't think will outweigh the loss if a venue abandons - obviously if you're doing more it potentially would.
I think they could find they lose more with these changes though, they've tried to address costs at grassroots but not by enough imo especially to outweigh the risk of losing all due to abandonment. And it's hitting those competing higher up who have stuck by eventing for love of the sport and are at a high enough level to not have unaffiliated alternatives.
		
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I don't think your assessment is really correct. I think there's a lot of tiny violins being played right now by people for whom £150 is a relative drop in the ocean. "I would have been on the British Olympic team but it was £150 too far" etcetera. I read on here that someone assessed the yearly costs of running their daughter's intermediate horse were £33,000 - if £150 is too much on top of that - well...

The new PAYG system is fundamentally simpler than the old day ticket one. For people thinking of doing a handful it will now be closer to unaffiliated prices than it was before. [no i don't love the removal of AIP, but we are where we are - many venues may offer much better refund terms, lets hope].

The riders who want to change discipline - fair enough. But there's no equivalent to to the enjoyment of jumping around novice/2* XC tracks for me (and I also actively SJ, previously teamchased, even rode p2p) - if you love it, you love it. It isn't anyone's birth given right to participate in eventing - if you love it enough to do it, you have to pay for it.

I always find this 'you make more prize money BS/BD' argument bizarre too - most BD classes don't have enough entries to give any prize money at all. I went BS the other day and came 2nd and 1st in my two classes, won £62 which covered entries, but in no way covered the costs of registration or my fuel to get to the venue. And the reality is, I was lucky -most the time I don't win lots of money, as money goes to 1 in 5 starts. So 4 in 5 starters (aka most people) are getting nothing.


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## RachelFerd (3 December 2021)

whoops duplicate post


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## milliepops (3 December 2021)

i used to get my entry fee back in prize money at BD up to about elementary.  Agree with RF above that the classes often aren't big enough to expect prize money. even my lowly little horse has won a fair few classes overall but we stopped seeing pennies for that years ago.


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## Roxylola (3 December 2021)

Those are fair points @RachelFerd and horses are expensive no matter what. But, I'm a fairly savvy grassroots person. I'm bamboozled by it all and have come to the conclusion as a day ticket member assuming I'm not hammered with abandons it likely won't make a huge difference to me either way. Which is fine, I'll still do a bit of both because I like having a record. So my point there is that BE have literally said they've focused on making it more affordable at grassroots. If I don't think its going to make much difference to me I imagine others feel the same. If there are a lot of tiny violins from higher level riders, and a lot of those are sufficiently disenchanted I'm concerned BE have made a mistake.
I want affiliated sport to continue, I won't go to any old 2 bit unaffiliated, I want quality judging, challenging courses and I'm happy to pay for them - if it was affiliated or cheap and shonky I'd do less runs but they'd all be affiliated, my budget is for the season and I want the best I can for my money. The reduction isn't enough to attract droves of unaffiliated back at grassroots- there are some good alternatives at that level. And the membership increase at a higher level certainly seems to have upset a lot of people.
They may or may not be justified in being upset but that's irrelevant if a significant number choose to leave BE. 
I'm worried for my sport not for how it affects my purse on a personal level.


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## RachelFerd (3 December 2021)

Roxylola said:



			Those are fair points @RachelFerd and horses are expensive no matter what. But, I'm a fairly savvy grassroots person. I'm bamboozled by it all and have come to the conclusion as a day ticket member assuming I'm not hammered with abandons it likely won't make a huge difference to me either way. Which is fine, I'll still do a bit of both because I like having a record. So my point there is that BE have literally said they've focused on making it more affordable at grassroots. If I don't think its going to make much difference to me I imagine others feel the same. If there are a lot of tiny violins from higher level riders, and a lot of those are sufficiently disenchanted I'm concerned BE have made a mistake.
I want affiliated sport to continue, I won't go to any old 2 bit unaffiliated, I want quality judging, challenging courses and I'm happy to pay for them - if it was affiliated or cheap and shonky I'd do less runs but they'd all be affiliated, my budget is for the season and I want the best I can for my money. The reduction isn't enough to attract droves of unaffiliated back at grassroots- there are some good alternatives at that level. And the membership increase at a higher level certainly seems to have upset a lot of people.
They may or may not be justified in being upset but that's irrelevant if a significant number choose to leave BE.
I'm worried for my sport not for how it affects my purse on a personal level.
		
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I think the tiny violins will fade out when the initial shock subsides into remembering that it is a drop in the ocean. If they want to event they have nowhere else to go unless they leave the country. Which will cost more than £150.

I think the next step (from reading AGM notes etc) is introduction of regional grassroots leagues/champs which should incentivise a little bit more regular participation.

I think the whole point of the PAYG system is that it doesn't reward the 'one off' BE entry (which was £15 day pass membership plus £25 per event (£40 cost to do 1 event, £115 to do 4 events, no option to do more than 4 events without then forking out for a full membership), but does reward more participation (PAYG £60 membership plus £15 per event, so £75 to do 1 event, £120 to do 4 events, £150 to do 6 events, no upper cap) - so hopefully people will  enjoy the events they enter and decide to run more 5, 6, 7, 8 times in the season and work on getting points for a regional league (in the same way that they have enjoyed doing for the cotswold cup, IF they happened to live in the right area....)


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## I'm Dun (3 December 2021)

It seems very complicated! I have one horse, not a hope in hell of chasing badminton etc, but would like to get round two or three 80/90s over the season. I'm not sure I can work out what it actually costs per event based on whats been released so far, but I need to sit down and read it properly later! I think on balance I'm still leaning heavily towards unaffiliated, but I am lucky to be in a part of the world that has them in abundance. 

Maybe if I ever get to the point I want to chase grass roots qualifications then it might be worth a rethink though


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## ScampiBigMan (3 December 2021)

Just another insult to add to the many have received from BE over many years

It's a great product (doing the actual eventing) but you do get punished as a customer if not part of the clique

Love my horses, love doing the actual eventing, some of fellow competitors, organisers, hosts, volunteers are good fun too

Vast majority of people involved in all aspects and particuarly at higher levels - would happily never meet or spend time with them again - and as I am not 'one of them' am sure is mutual

But that is the case for much of the horse sector. It's always been the horses I liked

Endurance GB are much more welcoming and supportive of people interested in their sport and you even get (very nice) rosettes for completing as well as multiple achievable goals for progress. Don't get the thrill that get XC but there are just so many downsides once you get past Novice BE, the disproprotionate cost increase if want to go FEI 3* is the latest addition. 

We'll see how it plays out


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