# Vets Kitchen - dog food



## PalominoMare (12 March 2012)

Hi there

I have always fed my pomeranians HiLife dog food as they don't need to eat alot to be full (they weren't big eaters when they were younger!) http://www.hilifepet.co.uk/osb/showitem.cfm/category/8

We ran out at the weekend and I decided to try "Vets Kictchen" http://www.hilifepet.co.uk/osb/showitem.cfm/category/8 as HiLife was out of stock. However, as I have never heard of it I wondered if any of you good folk have used it or if you can have a look at the nutritional information and advise? I am not so great with canine protein requirements as I am equine and the fellow pomeranian owners I know spoil their poms!


----------



## Vizslak (12 March 2012)

I had never heard of the stuff but they had a huge stand at crufts and I had a quick nosey at the back of some of the bags, it looks pretty good IMO


----------



## Cinnamontoast (12 March 2012)

Cereal is very high on the list plus genetically modified soya. I wouldn't use it. Maybe have a look at this link, green is best, red is don't touch!

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-health-nutrition/189896-dry-dog-food-index.html

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-health-nutrition/194976-wet-dog-food-index.html


----------



## EAST KENT (13 March 2012)

Is`nt it originated by the ex of that vet Emma somebody  from the series about new vets training at Langford? And the Vets in Ptactice. He tried doing manufacturing grass skateboards before this.¬spose it beats emptying anal glands!!


----------



## ester (13 March 2012)

yup Joe 

CT is that the hilife or vets kitchen? the latter specifically says no soya on their website?


----------



## Cinnamontoast (13 March 2012)

ester said:



			yup Joe 

CT is that the hilife or vets kitchen? the latter specifically says no soya on their website?
		
Click to expand...

Hilife, my bad, should have specified. Facepalm moment!

Quote from Joe Inglis himself: 
_*Just seen this post and I would like to say that I'm not just another vet jumping on the pet food bandwaggon - I've been developing natural pet food products for over 5 years, with the Joe & Jack's brand, and have now produced the Vet's Kitchen range of natural veterinary foods. These have been produced using my knoweldge of how nutrition affects health and I have added in specific ingredients to deliver specific health benefits - for example,l nucleotides to strengthen the immune system, prebiotics for the digestion etc. 
So please don't think that this is simply something I have leant my name to - these are my products that I have personally developed and I believe that they are the very best available.

I hope that helps,
Joe*_

Yet here are the ingredients: 
Chicken Meal (36%), Brown Rice (18%), White Rice (18%), Oats (6%), Sugar Beet Pulp, Chicken Fat, Brewer's Yeast, Salmon Oil, Minerals, Vitamins and Prebiotics FOS and MOS, Glucosamine and Chondroitin, Carrot, Apple, Seaweed, Nucleotides.Why does a dog need apple? Or rice? Or oats? Or sugar beet pulp? Interesting.


----------



## Vizslak (13 March 2012)

I would feed it


----------



## stargirl88 (13 March 2012)

I don't know anything about it but looking at the ingredients of both, to me, you're better off buying vets kitchen in future.


----------



## KarynK (13 March 2012)

cinnamontoast said:



			Chicken Meal (36%), Brown Rice (18%), White Rice (18%), Oats (6%), Sugar Beet Pulp, Chicken Fat, Brewer's Yeast, Salmon Oil, Minerals, Vitamins and Prebiotics FOS and MOS, Glucosamine and Chondroitin, Carrot, Apple, Seaweed, Nucleotides..
		
Click to expand...

Veterinary and Natural !  The two piggies ate 2 chicken carcasses each tonight, they pinched another when I wasn't looking, BUT

No additives 
No flavourings 
No cooking to death
No colours 
NO HORSE FOOD
With other parts of their REALLY NATURAL diet all the vits mins Pre and Pro this that and the others in a totally natural package with a minimum of plants and absolutely NO CEREALS 

NOW THAT IS NATURAL  
But then you can lead a human to knowledge but you cant make them see outside the box!!!


----------



## s4sugar (13 March 2012)

I would feed it to some dogs BUT it does have clever label manipulation. 

If the rice was all the same it would be the first ingredient. Can't see any advantage over Skinners F&T & I bet it costs more.


----------



## Laura1812 (13 March 2012)

my two pomeranians eat skinners duck and rice the same as my lab and springer. they get the odd chicken wing as an alternative meal once a week or so. 1 chicken wing really keeps them going for 24 hours and they love them. also keeps their teeth clean!


----------



## Cinnamontoast (13 March 2012)

KarynK said:



			Veterinary and Natural !  The two piggies ate 2 chicken carcasses each tonight, they pinched another when I wasn't looking, BUT

No additives 
No flavourings 
No cooking to death
No colours 
NO HORSE FOOD
With other parts of their REALLY NATURAL diet all the vits mins Pre and Pro this that and the others in a totally natural package with a minimum of plants and absolutely NO CEREALS 

NOW THAT IS NATURAL  
But then you can lead a human to knowledge but you cant make them see outside the box!!!
		
Click to expand...

*Like* 

I did chuckle at the vet's 'knowledge of nutrition', presumably gained after vet training, as they only have one day's training on nutrition, delivered at least in part by Hills. 

I just don't see what value feeding cereals gives. I do see that not everyone can do raw, but there are definitely better kibbles out there.


----------



## Vizslak (13 March 2012)

My point was its on a par with some of the better kibbles that dont cost the earth, ie skinners, arden grange etc. I dont know how much it is I havnt looked, if its the same price as f4d or orijen then obviously I would feed them over it.


----------



## EAST KENT (14 March 2012)

KarynK said:



			Veterinary and Natural !  The two piggies ate 2 chicken carcasses each tonight, they pinched another when I wasn't looking, BUT

No additives 
No flavourings 
No cooking to death
No colours 
NO HORSE FOOD
With other parts of their REALLY NATURAL diet all the vits mins Pre and Pro this that and the others in a totally natural package with a minimum of plants and absolutely NO CEREALS 

NOW THAT IS NATURAL  
But then you can lead a human to knowledge but you cant make them see outside the box!!!
		
Click to expand...

Now3 for some common sense folks!

   And at a fiver for ten kilos it cannot be bettered.


----------



## KarynK (14 March 2012)

Vizslak said:



			My point was its on a par with some of the better kibbles that dont cost the earth, ie skinners, arden grange etc. I dont know how much it is I havnt looked, if its the same price as f4d or orijen then obviously I would feed them over it.
		
Click to expand...

Please don't think I was getting at you, I accept that some people don't want to feed raw for whatever reason and that things like these are a HUGE improvement on Bakers and it's  like.

What REALLY gets my goat is the gall of people to call these feeds Natural and what they get away with as it's pet food, like calling it chicken and rice when it's actually rice and a load of other cheap bulk food more suitable for a hamster,  with a bit of chicken that no one else wants ground off a bone cooked nutrients re-added and often dried into little biscuity type morsels that swell up when moist!!!!

What also gets my goat is that I pay towards their education, they are supposedly my betters educationally having studied for 5 years and yet when it comes to nutrition they are more blinkered than a nervous carthorse!  Where on this earth would a canine encounter cooked rice and horse food as a natural part of it's diet! Then there is the other high profile veterinary sponsored pet food that claims dogs are virtually vegetarians REALLY!  When vet person did you last actually look in a dogs gob and think that those big serrated nashers were in any way designed to grind iddy biddy plants to a pulp!!!!! 

Argh!!!


----------



## Cinnamontoast (14 March 2012)

Likelikelike!


----------



## Aru (14 March 2012)

KarynK said:



			Please don't think I was getting at you, I accept that some people don't want to feed raw for whatever reason and that things like these are a HUGE improvement on Bakers and it's  like.

What REALLY gets my goat is the gall of people to call these feeds Natural and what they get away with as it's pet food, like calling it chicken and rice when it's actually rice and a load of other cheap bulk food more suitable for a hamster,  with a bit of chicken that no one else wants ground off a bone cooked nutrients re-added and often dried into little biscuity type morsels that swell up when moist!!!!

What also gets my goat is that I pay towards their education, they are supposedly my betters educationally having studied for 5 years and yet when it comes to nutrition they are more blinkered than a nervous carthorse!  Where on this earth would a canine encounter cooked rice and horse food as a natural part of it's diet! Then there is the other high profile veterinary sponsored pet food that claims dogs are virtually vegetarians REALLY!  When vet person did you last actually look in a dogs gob and think that those big serrated nashers were in any way designed to grind iddy biddy plants to a pulp!!!!! 

Argh!!!
		
Click to expand...

Like this post 
In the Vet defense nutrition is something that some that you can take an interest in once finished collage!
Personally I dont think that the basic nutrition is ideally taught.But in our defense the understanding of nutrition for sick animals and different disorders like kidney failure,pancreatitis etc is significantly better! Just to reassure people that its not just Hills preaching that goes on  There is just more of an emphasis on the dealing with conditions nutritionally and that takes a lot more precedence than the food fed every day. 

The main issue thats highlighted against the feeding Raw diets is the risk to human and animal health as its often raw poultry/red meat being handled/fed. 
Chicken skin is one of things that is constantly being highlighted in our public health sections of the course (An often unknown fact on Vets is that as one of the main criteria of  the jobs as a vet is to act in the interests of human public health,included in the oath and all in Ireland) Its illustrated as having high levels levels of Campylobacter and Salmonella Bacterias on it in spite of attempts at control on herd levels.To the point thats its often raised as an issue to human health.
So that fact is one of the reasons that you will find vets being unwilling to recommend a raw diet. While those two bacteria do not always cause issues when they do they can cause very severe illness.Dogs can and do get Salmonellosis and its nasty!And when dogs and people overlap theres always the risk of cross-infection to people in bacteria like this that are zoonotic.

Personally I would be happy to give feeding raw a go with my own pets....I know that Id be taking steps to reduce all that transmission and issues.....but ,again its just a personal stance, but I would not be willing to casually recommend just feeding raw as a base food to a lot of people.
The diet needs quite a lot of looking into and research to keep it balanced,esp in younger or giant dogs,as well as the food safety aspect.....there are safer recommendations from the potential consequence point of view. 

Hills etc are balanced foods. I wouldn't feed them to my own dog mainly as she is currently thriving on much cheaper alternative's!However if she was ill I would be more than willing to try her on the prescription diets.
While the commercial foods are not ideal and some dogs are not tolerant of them the vast majority of pets do just fine on them as a balanced functional diet.Plus they do have the advantage of being a safe recommendation.


----------



## Cinnamontoast (14 March 2012)

I beg to differ! Hills is not balanced! It is full of fillers that dogs do not need. It's hardly natural to feed dried nuggets of food to canines. 

The dog's short digestion system does not allow bacteria to fester as much as it might in a human. That is a poor response against raw feeding. The majority of the raw food that I feed is of human grade. I used to be massively paranoid about hygiene but I'm now more relaxed and no-one has been sick. 

Aru, are you qualified, intern, student? I'd be very interested in knowing what a vet feeds their own dog.


----------



## Aru (14 March 2012)

Its balanced nutritionally. It has the requirements that science at the moment says that a dog needs. 
It does have fillers etc ....but that doesn't make it non-nutritionally balanced...It makes it an commercial food. I did not say that hills was natural!! anything but.

Dogs nutritional systems are short, they are quicker than humans,yes.But dogs can and do get bacterial infections in their guts! Its not as uncommon as you are suggesting. Severe cases thankfully are rare enough but bacterial infections are very much possible in dogs GIT systems inspite of the transit times. 
And a more importantly from again the public protection point of view Dogs can carry bad strains of salmonella,can shed it in their faeces even after they have recovered from the obvious illness! Human health risk is why it is raised as an issue....they need several weeks of antibiotics and 3 negative tests before they can be considered negative for the salmonella bug.Its not something that can just be brushed aside by saying dogs never...they can and do get theses bugs thankfully not very often but thats not to say it does not happen!

Human grade food is good food.Im not denying that or suggesting that dogs on BARF diets get anything but the best,they usually have owners who want their dogs on the best healthiest food.And many dogs do thrive on the diet!

...but it being a natural and good diet when applied properly does not change the fact  does increase the chances of salmonella etc.It has an increase risk because your increasing the dogs exposure to the thing that can cause illness.Increased exposure is an increased chance. Human grade chicken is designed to be cooked and the potentially dangerous bacteria on the skin is killed by cooking!Its why the awareness into handling raw meat is pushed to prevent food poisoning in humans.Its more a raw issue than cooked.
Feeding raw means that the burden is higher then normal.Its a risk associated with the diet. Being aware of the risk is how you can identify it and lessen it. Saying it does not exist is not ok.

Im not trying to say its a bad diet.Im just trying to point out the risk issue.Hell dogs eat dead things throw them up or keep them down and can thrive on the most amazing crappy diets imaginable!But they do get side effects sometimes!


Im a Vet Student. I can pm you my year but Id rather not post to much identifying info on the net. If you look through old posts it probably could be discovered easily enough 

My dog is currently on Red Mills Leader. On strict rations to try and keep her weight under control.She has elbow arthritis most likely from Elbow dysplasia as a pup so gets Glucosamine and Chondroitin Sulfate capsules daily as well.

She before I put my foot down was fed on scraps from the table and whatever nuts were picked up in the supermarket special..... Bar being overweight she thrived on it.

I am by no means a nutrition expert! I have an interest in nutriton but have not had time to follow it up to the extent I would like.

All I can comment on is the bits I do have knowledge about.
The drawbacks of the raw diet and the myth that dogs do not get bacterial infections of the gut is one that comes up quite a lot on vet boards. Its one I read a lot into because I was thinking when I'm finished of giving Raw to my next dog a go to see what its like.

There are also a lot of advocates of the BARF diet to.I know vets who swear by it for their own pets,and I know vets who think the exact opposite of nice things on it....but I do feel the need to point out the potential draw backs as well.Awareness is key.

Sorry for the rambling...im not very concise!But i hope you get the point im trying to make?


----------



## EAST KENT (15 March 2012)

There are NO fillers in a chicken carcase..and not many vet fees either. Feed `em,worm `em quarterly ,plenty of exercise and fresh air and a warm dry sleeping area..like foxhounds let your dog be it`s own doctor.
   One vet ONCE said to feed "complete" to me "because it is balanced with everything in it"...I agreed with him..but said "everything indeed,but NOT quite as you mean it".
 All these people making dry foods have one thing in mind  PROFIT.


----------



## KarynK (15 March 2012)

If I were a vet I would be very curious why so many dogs suffer from skin irritations, suffer so badly from kidney failure, pancreatitis and wheat intolerance.  But by far the biggest scandal of the dog food industry is in my humble opinion DIABETES.  No dog should ever suffer from this disease if fed naturally. So why do we need all these expensive corrective feeds, why are we not looking at what the cause behind the disease is and is it indeed the original feed that is playing a role in the need for specialist diets.  We will probably never know for sure as the feed companies are big sponsors of research in the field of nutrition and they are not going to sponsor this!!

Don't get me wrong but wheat is becoming a very bad foodstuff for a lot of animals Humans  included and you have to ask what we have done to it!!!  But I also find it interesting that in horses nutritional thinking is very much moving away from cereal based diets, yet with dogs we are moving towards them!

Ignorance of raw diets particularly in respect of health risks are often displayed by people.  Most raw feed is of human grade, many of those feeding raw to one or two dogs use the supermarket as their main supply, so it is absolutely no different to preparing and cooking some chicken wings in your home kitchen to opening the packet and giving them to your dog usually on the patio outside, where birds and other creatures regularly defecate, dirty world we live in!  

At the end of the day hygiene is down to the individual handling the food so how on earth could a vet be responsible for that?  In no way should a need to protect idiots from disease ever come between recommending a diet that is best for the animal.  Thankfully many more vets especially those studying homeopathy are now actually recommending raw diets, though I often have issue over the balance of the ingredients!  But you cannot be responsible for a human who cannot be bothered to take precautions when handling raw food.

A healthy canine fed raw is highly unlikely to have any issues with bad bacteria.  The canine has evolved to deal with it, dogs are designed to eat some pretty rancid stuff to survive.  As above their gut is short and when fed raw meat and bones it is very very fast, so the baddies have no chance to take hold.  BUT feed a diet more suitable to a horse and that system slows and becomes very vulnerable to such disease, that&#8217;s why humans cannot tolerate rotten meat, we are set up to eat a very different diet.   Fibre in our diet comes from plants, a dogs comes from fur, feathers, bones and claws!  So yes you will see problems in dogs fed on commercial diets but having fed raw for 14 years and knowing a lot of dogs fed on raw in that time I have never known of a case of food poisoning and my dogs like their food very gamey! 

There is risk involved in any feed, something that is designed with a 6 month shelf life and is full of largely unregulated additives to ensure it does not go rancid is not without some risk.  Nor is feeding a dry food that has huge potential to swell in the gut without some risk!  Unregulated sources of food often below human grade have caused many illnesses in the past, most notably poisonous rice from china,  as have machines adding back in overdoses of potentially toxic nutrients lost in cooking.

Raw diet because it is the natural diet of a dog is much more flexible and forgiving, providing a variety of raw meaty bones, offal, eggs and some small amounts of raw veg (not everyone feeds this) are fed over say 2 weeks then all the dogs needs are met nutritionally.  Sadly I feel no one will ever have the stones or the money to undertake a study of raw feeding it might just overturn the industry!.  But there are a lot of breeders of large breeds and working dogs that have been on raw diet for many years and some have generations of raw raised dogs, they report better more sustained growth rate in puppies and also better condition and longer lactation sustained in bitches, milk is always better than a human made dog food.

At the end of the day it is down to personal choice but I would think that a recommendation with a caveat of make sure you handle the food carefully is all that is needed for a vet to fulfil their responsibility to the human owner and do what is best for the dog!


----------



## CorvusCorax (15 March 2012)

I know a lot of raw feeders and neither they nor families nor their dogs are keeling over from bacterial infections. 
I'm well known for playing fast and loose with hygeine  and the worst I suffer is a couple of bad colds a year. 
However I know a lot of dog owners who have lost or nearly lost their dogs far, far too young to torsion and bloat and an increasing number of dogs which suffer from intolerances and allergies.


----------



## weevil (15 March 2012)

cinnamontoast said:



			I did chuckle at the vet's 'knowledge of nutrition', presumably gained after vet training, as they only have one day's training on nutrition, delivered at least in part by Hills. 

Click to expand...

This is the attitude I find really annoying. Vets may only touch on nutrition during their formal training but that doesn't mean that they can't have done more research/had more training after they graduated. To assume that all vets have been brainwashed by Hills is pretty insulting. 
I know quite a few vets and vet nurses, some feed raw, some feed kibble but they all feed what suits their dog best and not just what a rep has told them is best...


----------



## EAST KENT (15 March 2012)

Actually the truth..vets get free  food for in patients if they push that companies dried stuff.They get free feeding bowls too,there is a big mark up in their favour for every sack sold,they are courted to send out that company`s "puppy pack" free with every first vaccination.
   Just ask your vet "how many litters of puppies have YOU reared" when they question the diet sheet issued by a breeder with years of experience.THAT usually does the job smartly. I really do not  like warning my puppy buyers about what the vet might try and say or do..but increasingly it is very necessary.Sad really.
Interestly I do know of a local hound pack feeding Dr John`s, I must make it a job to find out if their litter sizes have decreased..certainly the hounds look well and hunt like demons still.Going out on the flesh round is expensive ,and hound packs are always demanding the huntsman is extremely economic.


----------



## vieshot (15 March 2012)

I switched my dogs to raw a few weeks back. It's nice to see them really enjoying their food!!! They think it's Christmas everyday lol! You read about people whose dogs won't eat, who pick at their meals etc and people give them the advice of only offering food for 5 minutes then removing it if they don't eat or whatever. Maybe just chuck the boring kibble away and pick up some chicken wings instead and watch your dogs attitude to food change instantly!


----------



## Cinnamontoast (15 March 2012)

EAST KENT said:



			One vet ONCE said to feed "complete" to me "because it is balanced with everything in it"...I agreed with him..but said "everything indeed,but NOT quite as you mean it".
 All these people making dry foods have one thing in mind  PROFIT.
		
Click to expand...

Quite.



CaveCanem said:



			I know a lot of raw feeders and neither they nor families nor their dogs are keeling over from bacterial infections. 
I'm well known for playing fast and loose with hygeine  and the worst I suffer is a couple of bad colds a year. 
However I know a lot of dog owners who have lost or nearly lost their dogs far, far too young to torsion and bloat and an increasing number of dogs which suffer from intolerances and allergies.
		
Click to expand...

This-allergies caused primarily by cereal inclusion.



weevil said:



			This is the attitude I find really annoying. Vets may only touch on nutrition during their formal training but that doesn't mean that they can't have done more research/had more training after they graduated. To assume that all vets have been brainwashed by Hills is pretty insulting.
		
Click to expand...


Then don't read my posts...? I defy you to find me a vet's surgery that doesn't have some commercial food in it. My vet mates all merrily admit that they are pushed to supply Hills. Insulting? Yup, because a lot of vets do push it, needlessly. And Hills do most of the nutrition training and offer great subsidies for selling it. How is that insulting?


----------



## MurphysMinder (15 March 2012)

When daughter was at vet uni they got loads of freebies from Royal Canin, not hills.  I still have RC leads, laptop bag and drink bottle , have never used the food  So yes would agree the feed companies do try and influence vets, but I have to say I have never had a vet try to push food on me, maybe they hae more sense.


----------



## letrec_fan (16 March 2012)

It was mentioned that dry food companies are only out to make profit but surely so are the people producing the intensively reared chickens as most people on here that post about raw mention all the cheapest meat and bargain bin stuff. If you buy free range etc it is not cheap at all (which is how it should be). I understand the same chicken is put in dry food too but I think it is possible to source a dry food that perhaps sources meat better but cheaper, as obviously it has rice etc in it. If that makes sense.

Also, re: fillers. Surely intensively grown/reared chickens and other meat are fed food that isn't good for the dog eating it. I think cheaper meat also has a much higher water content.


----------



## KarynK (16 March 2012)

Letrec yes they are also out to make a profit BUT the difference is that they are heavily regulated on what they feed and the quality of food that they produce.  Pet food is poorly regulated in comparison there is not the protection from quality of ingredients or potentially harmful substances or even diseased meat for pet foods, some ingredients are not declared due to huge legal loopholes.  

A UK company made National news for the stench coming from a plant in Cornwall, so perhaps not the freshest of meat going into some of their mixes.  Several dogs have died over the years from contaminated rice products used in dog food and from overdoses of toxic ingredients when mistakes are made in manufacture.  So food not meeting strict human standards is finding it&#8217;s way into dog food.  In the US most states have no laws to prevent the use of euthanased pets and companion animals being used at render plants and being fed to dogs and cats, barbiturates and all, so you see not all in the dog food industry have pets best interests at heart.

Whilst some Raw feeders start off sourcing from supermarkets and a lot of that will be reduced ethically reared and produced meats (the co-op Elmwood range on a Tuesday).  But the majority of raw feeders source locally, my dogs are fed locally raised free-range chickens and lamb, fed on very good diets.  I can do this cheaply as my dogs eat the parts humans no longer want, these parts were actually going to incinerators would you believe.  My dogs eat much better than I do as I can&#8217;t afford free-range prices every day.

So a lot of raw fed dogs are actually virtually carbon neutral, not only is their food uncooked, they save waste food from being transported and dumped or incinerated.  Their waste product is also far more environmentally friendly and hugely less offensive, it is like chalk as it is mostly calcium as all the other nutrients are all available and fully digested by the dog.  Their urine is also less much offensive plus their teeth are clean, they have fewer allergy related problems and rarely need the vet for routine things.

Did you know that New Forest ponies have been observed eating dog faeces?  Because the dogs cannot actually digest a large part of their cereal based diet and the ponies find it attractive for that reason, they can get something from it still.  They would get nothing much form mine!

So do I think that the crappy diet used to force flesh and bone on to a chicken is detrimental to the dog, no not really, not ideal but far far better than feeding the dog what you are feeding the chicken, and lets face it some brands are not far off it anyway.  To be honest broiler mash would probably be more nutritious to dogs than some cheap ranges of dog food, for starters it would probably have more chicken in it!


----------



## CorvusCorax (16 March 2012)

Bargain bins are a good starting point and plenty of humans feed themselves from the bargain bin so I don't see a huge issue.
I've now sourced a greyhound supplier who does ten kilos of chicken carcasses for £5. They are human grade and hand cut and last for a month.
I've had a lot of meat through my gaff in a year and I think I can spot the difference between a crappy quality bird and a good one, these are good birds.


----------



## KarynK (16 March 2012)

Yeyhey CC finally found the mother load!!  But I bet you still can't resist the odd bargain from Tesco!


----------

