# Can we please do away with the term 'cubbing'?



## happyhunter123 (7 September 2013)

It's awful! People don't go 'foxing' or 'stagging', they go foxhunting or staghunting (as was pointed out I believe by the Duke of Beaufort, who loathed the expression)! We should really refer to it as* 'cub hunting'* or even better, '*autumn hunting'*, which probably describes it more accurately. 

In Eng/Scot/Wales, the term '_cub hunting_' is not as relevant anymore anyway, though I appreciate that many hunts still carry out forms of fox control in line with the exemptions in the Hunting Act, especially before the season begins.


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## Shysmum (7 September 2013)

Oh dear. Cubbing, "autumn hunting"  and cub hunting sound just as awful as each other, and everyone knows EXACTLY what they mean. And it ain't exactly legal is it. However you dress it up. 

Hunting with hounds is actually ILLEGAL.


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## happyhunter123 (8 September 2013)

Shysmum said:



			Oh dear. Cubbing, "autumn hunting"  and cub hunting sound just as awful as each other, and everyone knows EXACTLY what they mean. And it ain't exactly legal is it. However you dress it up.
		
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Bear in mind that hunting with hounds (in the_ traditional_ form) is only illegal in England, Scotland and Wales. There are other countries in the world! I assume we have forum members on here from Ireland, the US, or from any of the other countries in which hunting is practiced. Also bear in mind that there are several exemptions through which foxes may still be killed by hunts under the Hunting Act (and even bigger loopholes in the Scottish 'ban'). 

People still continue to use the term in this country because that's what they've always called it. I've always been told that it was the _incorrect terminology_, and that 'cub hunting' (the idea of calling it 'autumn hunting' was introduced about 20 years ago, and never fully caught on, though it would be more accurate if people used that term in the post-HA era) was correct.


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## cptrayes (8 September 2013)

Shysmum said:



			Oh dear. Cubbing, "autumn hunting"  and cub hunting sound just as awful as each other, and everyone knows EXACTLY what they mean. And it ain't exactly legal is it. However you dress it up. 

Hunting with hounds is actually ILLEGAL.
		
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I doubt of many people do know 'exactly' what it means.

Exactly what it means is that you ring an area of woodland that you know has foxes born this year inside it with riders on horses and tell them to make a lot of noise to keep the cubs inside the covert.

Then you put in a pack of hounds and sit and wait for them to slaughter the cubs.

No wonder people want it called something else!.


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## Clava (8 September 2013)

cptrayes said:



			I doubt of many people do know 'exactly' what it means.

Exactly what it means is that you ring an area of woodland that you know has foxes born this year inside it with riders on horses and tell them to make a lot of noise to keep the cubs inside the covert.

Then you put in a pack of hounds and sit and wait for them to slaughter the cubs.

No wonder people want it called something else!.
		
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That is disgusting.


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## AdorableAlice (8 September 2013)

Here we go, the town folk versus the countryside folk.


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## Jesstickle (8 September 2013)

cptrayes said:



			I doubt of many people do know 'exactly' what it means.

Exactly what it means is that you ring an area of woodland that you know has foxes born this year inside it with riders on horses and tell them to make a lot of noise to keep the cubs inside the covert.

Then you put in a pack of hounds and sit and wait for them to slaughter the cubs.

No wonder people want it called something else!.
		
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Of course people know what it means. They certainly do in the hunting forum where we are anyway. I have known that since I first went out on the lead rein as does everyone else I hunt with!

No, I will continue to call it cubbing as it is easier to say than autumn hunting and it doesn't bother me in the slightest. The name, or the practise which is, of course, now illegal and cubbing is basically just hacking around and doing not a lot now!

I do see your point OP, it is a weird word but it works and everyone knows what it means so why fix what isn't broken? I haven't seen the meet card for the year but it will use the ohrase autumn hunting I am sure, I just find cubbing easier in general conversation


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## Clava (8 September 2013)

AdorableAlice said:



			Here we go, the town folk versus the countryside folk.
		
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That glib comment is such an inaccurate point of view.


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## Jas123 (8 September 2013)

Cubbing is what everyone refers to it as. I understand "cub hunting" is correct but a bit of a mouthful!
I had a great day cubbing yesterday! 
Seems odd people on a hunting forum being anti-hunting but there we go, takes all sorts!


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## webble (8 September 2013)

cptrayes said:



			I doubt of many people do know 'exactly' what it means.

Exactly what it means is that you ring an area of woodland that you know has foxes born this year inside it with riders on horses and tell them to make a lot of noise to keep the cubs inside the covert.

Then you put in a pack of hounds and sit and wait for them to slaughter the cubs.

No wonder people want it called something else!.
		
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Disgusting!!


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## The Fuzzy Furry (8 September 2013)

cptrayes said:



			I doubt of many people do know 'exactly' what it means.

Exactly what it means is that you ring an area of woodland that you know has foxes born this year inside it with riders on horses and tell them to make a lot of noise to keep the cubs inside the covert.

Then you put in a pack of hounds and sit and wait for them to slaughter the cubs.

No wonder people want it called something else!.
		
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*sigh*

Yet another person who has not kept up with the times..... 
Have YOU actually been autumn hunting in the past few years?
If so, you would know that not only the MFHA, but also the courts, would be very keen to haul any hunt up that might have carried what you suggest out, never heard so much drivel in all my life! :rolleyes3:

Please, try to stick to facts, not to peddle total lies and untruths to generate hostility and division, its really quite unpleasant


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## Moomin1 (8 September 2013)

Jas123 said:



			Cubbing is what everyone refers to it as. I understand "cub hunting" is correct but a bit of a mouthful!
I had a great day cubbing yesterday! 
Seems odd people on a hunting forum being anti-hunting but there we go, takes all sorts!
		
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Why is it 'odd'.  The clue is in the name of the forum 'HORSE' and Hound.  There are plenty of horsey people who disagree with hunting.


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## Jas123 (8 September 2013)

If you disagree then why are you on the hunting part of the forum?
It is ODD!!!


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## Moomin1 (8 September 2013)

Jas123 said:



			If you disagree then why are you on the hunting part of the forum?
It is ODD!!!
		
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I wasn't. I use the 'New Posts' search rather than look at individual parts of the forum.  This popped up.  

Also, just because I may not agree with hunting, does not mean I am not entitled to view certain threads out of interest.


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## dogatemysalad (8 September 2013)

Vile practice what ever term you use. 

BTW. I'm country born and bred unlike the hunting liveries on my yard.


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## Moomin1 (8 September 2013)

dogatemysalad said:



			Vile practice what ever term you use. 

BTW. I'm country born and bred unlike the hunting liveries on my yard.
		
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Hahaha!!  Fantastic post!


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## Morgan123 (8 September 2013)

Hello, I'm interested, what do they do now after the ban instead of the usual cubbing? Is a scent laid but just in a more specific area than usual? Just out of interest!

As regards language, you're fighting a losing battle. People use the language they want to use and have always used, no point moaning about it, you have to just accept it (even when it's annoying, like when apostrophes are misused!).


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## oakash (8 September 2013)

I have to agree that people use the language they wish to. What I find objectional is the way people increasingly refuse to accept we are rational and (reasonably) intelligent animals. History shows that too many of one species becomes a problem. All of us realised that mink and foxes need control - surely the happenings in the city with fox attacks show us that? Why can't all of us accept that culling badgers is the way forward? Silly arguments about badgers moving into empty badger setts are an argument for more extensive culling, not less. If a practical and effective method of vaccination were available, why on earth would it not have been used?  

Culling a few cubs each year by hounds, when foxhunting was legal, was an obvious and natural method, far more in touch with nature than some people's current hysterical objections to it.

Bring back proper hunting if we all want a balanced management of our wildlife.


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## happyhunter123 (8 September 2013)

I had expected that the title of this attract some of the rather more anti members of this forum, though a hunting debate wasn't my intention! 

(I will add that I find nothing remotely 'vile' about the practice, it was effective in thinning out the fox population on a local level and the deaths of the 'cubs' (which are, in reality, half grown foxes, not little cute fluffy things) is very fast at the jaws of the hounds)


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## Morgan123 (8 September 2013)

But what exactly is cubbing now that the ban is in force? This isn't a pro or anti question I'm just interested.


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## happyhunter123 (8 September 2013)

Morgan123 said:



			But what exactly is cubbing now that the ban is in force? This isn't a pro or anti question I'm just interested.
		
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'Cubbing' is still the period of pre-main season hunting from August to October. Different hunts will be doing different things or a mixture of different things. Early mornings/afternoons will be spent either exercising hounds, trail hunting, or carrying out fox control measures within the Hunting Act, for example flushing from covert to a bird of prey (it is far more effective doing this when the foxes are younger) or flushing to guns using two hounds. Terrier work, again under the exemption, may also take place. It is important that hunts provide a fox control service wherever possible to maintain good relationships with the landowners. 

In regards to trail hunting, lines being laid will be much shorter than those laid in the main season. You don't want the hounds and the horses tired out before the main season starts. Training of the hounds is the main aim.


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## Jesstickle (8 September 2013)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			*sigh*

Yet another person who has not kept up with the times..... 
Have YOU actually been autumn hunting in the past few years?
If so, you would know that not only the MFHA, but also the courts, would be very keen to haul any hunt up that might have carried what you suggest out, never heard so much drivel in all my life! :rolleyes3:

Please, try to stick to facts, not to peddle total lies and untruths to generate hostility and division, its really quite unpleasant 

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Cubbing, which has always been as dull as dishwater to be fair, is really just a very slow hack with lots of waiting around now!

I haven't ever seen hunting with a bird of prey but I would love to. I bet they're amazing to watch!


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## Morgan123 (8 September 2013)

Thanks happy hunter! I see. Interesting, I had always wondered how it worked post ban!


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## Orangehorse (8 September 2013)

I think that post ban it is better to refer to it as Autumn Hunting, even though amongst hunting people you will still continue to say "cubbing" as that is what it has always been.

Our hunt has a bird of prey, but uses the Autumn Hunting mainly as a way to get horses fit for proper hunting, as there seem to be a lot of newbies who don't realise how to get a horse fit.  It is also very useful for young horses as they don't go tearing around the countryside, there is still alot of standing around.


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## Sherston (8 September 2013)

So once again we have established the fact that some people like hunting and some people don't - excellent, I have no problem with people not liking hunting, that's a fact of life with everything. But I don't post on cycling forums objecting to it because I don't like cycling (or any other topic, of which there could be may!). I would see this as a waste of my time as I'm a normal human being that is happy that people get on with whatever they want to, other people of course don't just do what they like to do, but also try and tell other people what to, or not to do.

Back to the thread. There is either cub hunting or Autumn hunting, Cubbing is a frequently used made up word. Cubs become foxes on the 1st November and then we go fox hunting.

Of course other people shoot, or snare, or dig, or run over, or poison foxes or cubs all year round, which or course is legal, but that's the law for you. 

Sherston


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## skint1 (8 September 2013)

My daughter is taking my horse to a cubbing thing this weekend.  My horse is an old hand at hunting and I think she will love it, but I don't think it would be fair for her to do a full on hunt as she is older now so they probably won't get too involved later in the season when I understand that things get hairier, they will only do ones with optional fences, I guess that's draghunting. I know nothing about hunting, my daughter did a season with the VWH and Beaufort when she was a teen (she rode for someone else as I could not have afforded the cap)  I got the impression that in reality it is a 6 mile fun ride with hounds which I think my horse and daughter will enjoy.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (8 September 2013)

skint1 said:



			My daughter is taking my horse to a cubbing thing this weekend.  My horse is an old hand at hunting and I think she will love it, but I don't think it would be fair for her to do a full on hunt as she is older now so they probably won't get too involved later in the season when I understand *that things get hairier, they will only do ones with optional fences, I guess that's draghunting.* I know nothing about hunting, my daughter did a season with the VWH and Beaufort when she was a teen (she rode for someone else as I could not have afforded the cap)  I got the impression that in reality it is a 6 mile fun ride with hounds which I think my horse and daughter will enjoy.
		
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Not necessarily.

Most hunts have 'novice days' early season, and plenty will have someone there to help new persons find their way.

However, tho drag hunting is similar in set up, in that sometimes there are novice meets (and dodgable fences) other times the meets are noted as 'not suitable for novices or those who do not jump', so worth checking your hunt card & if in doubt check with the secretary


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## skint1 (8 September 2013)

Thanks for that The Fuzzy Furry! I shall make sure she checks very carefully, she plans to ring the secretary of this meet to introduce herself beforehand and ensure it is ok to come along etc. I'm quite excited for them, I just hope my mare remembers afterwards that she is not a hunter but a babysitter for an old lady hacker


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## cptrayes (8 September 2013)

Sherston said:



			I don't post on cycling forums objecting to it because I don't like cycling (or any other topic, of which there could be may!). I would see this as a waste of my time as I'm a normal human being that is happy that people get on with whatever they want to, other people of course don't just do what they like to do, but also try and tell other people what to, or not to do.
		
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The differences being, of course, that cyclists don't kill animals and that cub hunting is illegal.


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## Jas123 (8 September 2013)

Even if they did make cycling illegal, I personally still wouldn't post nonsense I knew nothing about on a cycling forum!!


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## Jesstickle (8 September 2013)

cptrayes said:



			The differences being, of course, that cyclists don't kill animals and that cub hunting is illegal.
		
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Plenty of the cyclists in Cambridge are highly illegal I assure you!


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## cptrayes (8 September 2013)

Jas123 said:



			Even if they did make cycling illegal, I personally still wouldn't post nonsense I knew nothing about on a cycling forum!!
		
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I so agree with you Jas.   It's twenty and more years since I cub hunted with the Berkeley and I still haven't gone the foul taste of it out of my mouth


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## Jas123 (8 September 2013)

Really? Why did you go then?
I don't take part in anything I dislike or disagree with.......


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## cptrayes (8 September 2013)

Jas123 said:



			Really? Why did you go then?
I don't take part in anything I dislike or disagree with.......
		
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Because I didn't know before I went - once - how utterly disgusting it would be. I left before the end.


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## Jas123 (8 September 2013)

Well, each to their own, like I've said, it seems odd that people with anti-hunting views are posting on a hunting forum!!
As for killing animals, we all do surely to some extent? Even vegetarians kill vermin, rodents, even fleas on cats!!!!!!!


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## cptrayes (8 September 2013)

Jas123 said:



			Well, each to their own, like I've said, it seems odd that people with anti-hunting views are posting on a hunting forum!!
As for killing animals, we all do surely to some extent? Even vegetarians kill vermin, rodents, even fleas on cats!!!!!!!
		
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I hunt, just not wild  animals.  Its all about a clean kill for me, and when I was fox hunting with the Berkeley, Beaufort and Curre I came to realise that I could not support it any longer.

This is an open  forum. I am sure that if you want criticism free discussion of hunting you can find a pro hunting board somewhere else.

JAS we have had a run in on a deleted thread previously about the new CDH and CBH packs. I think I have now placed you as the person who told me you went out with a Fox pack who I won't name last year and killed four foxes right off.

If so, you freely admitted to me on that occasion that you were happy to hunt completely illegally.

If that was not you, then I apologise that your clear pro- hunting stance made me mistake you for that person.


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## Jas123 (8 September 2013)

There's many occasions when we've drag hunted and the hounds went after a real fox. Did you just choose not to notice?
Clean kill? What is that??
Well the tradition of hunting still exists whether people like it or not.


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## cptrayes (8 September 2013)

Jas123 said:



			There's many occasions when we've drag hunted and the hounds went after a real fox. Did you just choose not to notice?
Clean kill? What is that??
Well the tradition of hunting still exists whether people like it or not.
		
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I have never seen a situation out with you or any other time out with a drag pack when the hounds were not swiftly called off any live scent.

I would also remind you that because of my marvellous horse I am always right at the front and in a far better position than you were to know what the hounds were, and were not,  chasing.

In five seasons consecutively and two previously I have never seen a drag pack chase, never mind catch, a fox.


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## Shysmum (8 September 2013)

I know our "local hunt" kill. The last time it was filmed and reported.  How is that legal ?   Hunting with dogs is NOT legal in the UK. I do not care what the majority of posters on here think, it was outlawed because it is cruel - who the hell gets kicks out of seeing a fox ripped apart ?  And walks around with a fox tail on a belt, and raises hounds in his RDA stabling - and gets the "day care kids" to walk them. SICK.  ( step forward an RDA centre owner not far from me in c. Durham).  Perhaps RDA would like to contact me for more info ?  

Control foxes by all means - with a clean shot from a gun !

I saw some horrific videos of a terrier man w****** off while he was training his pups to attack a cub. he was being investigated for badger baiting too. Guys, you have NO IDEA what terrier are up  to !!!  From that day till now, I see hunting as something evil.


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## Jas123 (8 September 2013)

Lol!! And I wasn't always at the front??? 
Maybe you aren't as observant as you think then!!
I don't see why it matters one bit.


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## Jesstickle (8 September 2013)

Surely even dragging a fox has had to die. I'm assuming your runner still pulls a brush behind him/her?


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## cptrayes (8 September 2013)

Jas123 said:



			Lol!! And I wasn't always at the front??? 
Maybe you aren't as observant as you think then!!
I don't see why it matters one bit.
		
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Well if you were on your stocky barefoot fellow with the digestion problems you certainly weren't jumping six foot hedges with me and the Field Master, no.

And if you weren't that person, then you aren't who I think you are.

Why don't you just give up posting anonymously and stop hiding behind a user name, then we'll all know where we stand?


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## cptrayes (8 September 2013)

Jesstickle said:



			Surely even dragging a fox has had to die. I'm assuming your runner still pulls a brush behind him/her?
		
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No no Jess!!!  The drag bit refers to the sequins he wears on his tutu 



In the inconceivable event that your post is serious, the runner or the scent laying horses use a manufactured scent, not a Fox brush


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## Jesstickle (8 September 2013)

You never know! I remember a new runner being given a stinking brush out of a carrier bag and looking utterly horrified. I think he thought the hounds would be able to follow his scent or summat. Poor boy!


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## Orangehorse (8 September 2013)

It isn't illegal to kill a fox, so it is quite possible for the drag to be bits of a dead one.  I


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## happyhunter123 (9 September 2013)

Shysmum said:



			who the hell gets kicks out of seeing a fox ripped apart ?
		
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NO ONE who follows hounds, for the simply fact that it isn't seen (happens under a bush, field are behind hounds, foot followers are even further behind). Half of days I've been out hunting I haven't even seen the quarry, let alone seen it being killed. Not seeing it does not detract necessarily from the quality of the day, indeed some of the best days I've ever had, the fox was not sighted once and it got away in the end.

The point of hunting with scenting hounds is to hunt a scent.  If we wanted to see a fox 'ripped apart' we would go out with a pack of lurchers. If it was all about killing stuff, or satisfying bloodlust, we'd be perfectly fine with the Hunting Act as it still allows that, if you ask me using a bird of prey or shooting a running fox are much more violent! What it does not allow us to do is hunt the fox. I do not ride out hunting (though I do ride),and even if I did I would not go for the ride, I go to see hounds hunt and hounds work. That is what hunting IS, and there are a number of reasons why drag hunting can never be a proper replacement.


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## Moomin1 (9 September 2013)

happyhunter123 said:



			NO ONE who follows hounds, for the simply fact that it isn't seen (happens under a bush, field are behind hounds, foot followers are even further behind). Half of days I've been out hunting I haven't even seen the quarry, let alone seen it being killed. Not seeing it does not detract necessarily from the quality of the day, indeed some of the best days I've ever had, the fox was not sighted once and it got away in the end.

The point of hunting with scenting hounds is to hunt a scent.  If we wanted to see a fox 'ripped apart' we would go out with a pack of lurchers. If it was all about killing stuff, or satisfying bloodlust, we'd be perfectly fine with the Hunting Act as it still allows that, if you ask me using a bird of prey or shooting a running fox are much more violent! What it does not allow us to do is hunt the fox. I do not ride out hunting (though I do ride),and even if I did I would not go for the ride, I go to see hounds hunt and hounds work. That is what hunting IS, and there are a number of reasons why drag hunting can never be a proper replacement.
		
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Oh, well, that's ok then!! PMSL!  How is it POSSIBLY as cruel if you don't SEE it!


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## happyhunter123 (9 September 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			Oh, well, that's ok then!! PMSL!  How is it POSSIBLY as cruel if you don't SEE it!
		
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Hang on, that's a different issue. There are two sides to the hunting argument, the 'morality' side of what the antis call 'killing for sport' and the 'cruelty' side. I was talking about the reason why we go hunting- our motive. That's the _morality_ side.

Shysmum said:



			who the hell gets kicks out of *seeing* a fox ripped apart ?
		
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I _wasn't_ talking about whether the quarry suffers or not. I was talking about whether or not that was why we went hunting!


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## Moomin1 (9 September 2013)

happyhunter123 said:



			Hang on, that's a different issue. There are two sides to the hunting argument, the 'morality' side of what the antis call 'killing for sport' and the 'cruelty' side. I was talking about the reason why we go hunting- our motive. That's the _morality_ side.

Shysmum said:


I _wasn't_ talking about whether the quarry suffers or not. I was talking about whether or not that was why we went hunting!
		
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Ok.  So if you very rarely get to see the kill, how on earth can you possibly say it happens quickly?


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## twiggy2 (9 September 2013)

for me the cruelty is not in the way the fox is killed but in the fact is is hunted and running for its life over what is often a prolonged period of time. the fear and exhaustion is the cruelty.

a good shot will take a fox out with no fear OR suffering

a lurcher will catch its quarry in a very short time frame


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## Jesstickle (9 September 2013)

twiggy2 said:



			for me the cruelty is not in the way the fox is killed but in the fact is is hunted and running for its life over what is often a prolonged period of time. the fear and exhaustion is the cruelty.

a good shot will take a fox out with no fear OR suffering

a lurcher will catch its quarry in a very short time frame
		
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But we're talking about cub hunting where no one chases anything :confused3:


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## Jesstickle (9 September 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			Ok.  So if you very rarely get to see the kill, how on earth can you possibly say it happens quickly?
		
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Where to did the OP say it did?!


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## EAST KENT (9 September 2013)

twiggy2 said:



			for me the cruelty is not in the way the fox is killed but in the fact is is hunted and running for its life over what is often a prolonged period of time. the fear and exhaustion is the cruelty.

a good shot will take a fox out with no fear OR suffering

a lurcher will catch its quarry in a very short time frame
		
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not quite so;my views on hunting changed radically when I found a cub of around four months being eaten alive by maggot after being shot in it`s rear end..that never happens with hounds.Foxes are only ever hunted CLOSE UP the once,so they have no preconception about death whatsoever.I would say 90% get clean away,good for them I say.Terrier work,ah,now there there is a quandary,the fox is "hunted" close up for a considerable time,so NO,don`t like that one bit.


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## Elsbells (9 September 2013)

I'm country born and bred but I don't like or agree to fox hunting at all, I was put off as a kid by the terrier men digging an old grey out of his den and throwing him to the waiting hounds. I was 8 years old and a seasoned blooded follower but that finished me off when I witnessed that and made me aware that a lot of things in life are so unfair.

I


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## Patterdale (9 September 2013)

cptrayes said:



			I hunt, just not wild  animals.
		
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Er.....what!? Does that make it ok then? What point are you trying to make!?


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## twiggy2 (9 September 2013)

happyhunter123 said:



			NO ONE who follows hounds, for the simply fact that it isn't seen (happens under a bush, field are behind hounds, foot followers are even further behind). Half of days I've been out hunting I haven't even seen the quarry, let alone seen it being killed. Not seeing it does not detract necessarily from the quality of the day, indeed some of the best days I've ever had, the fox was not sighted once and it got away in the end.
If we wanted to see a fox 'ripped apart' we would go out with a pack of lurchers. If it was all about killing stuff, or satisfying bloodlust, we'd be perfectly fine with the Hunting Act as it still allows that, if you ask me using a bird of prey or shooting a running fox are much more violent!
		
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sorry but it was in response tp this post


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## twiggy2 (9 September 2013)

EAST KENT said:



			not quite so;my views on hunting changed radically when I found a cub of around four months being eaten alive by maggot after being shot in it`s rear end..that never happens with hounds.Foxes are only ever hunted CLOSE UP the once,so they have no preconception about death whatsoever.I would say 90% get clean away,good for them I say.Terrier work,ah,now there there is a quandary,the fox is "hunted" close up for a considerable time,so NO,don`t like that one bit.
		
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i did say a good shot how anyone can be a bad shot on such a young fox and then not follow it to ground to end its suffering is beyond me


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## Amymay (9 September 2013)

Jesstickle said:



			Where to did the OP say it did?!
		
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Here:



happyhunter123 said:



			I had expected that the title of this attract some of the rather more anti members of this forum, though a hunting debate wasn't my intention! 

(I will add that I find nothing remotely 'vile' about the practice, it was effective in thinning out the fox population on a local level and the deaths of the 'cubs' (which are, in reality, half grown foxes, not little cute fluffy things) is very fast at the jaws of the hounds)
		
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## Jesstickle (9 September 2013)

Missed that!

Silly me. I've seen my lurcher kill things up close. It is bloody quick, can only assume the hounds are equally as fast!


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## MerrySherryRider (9 September 2013)

Oh dear, another attempt to sanitise hunting. Cubbing/autumn hunting is merely foreplay for the bloodthirsty. 

No matter how much the hunt supporters shout, it will never be socially acceptable by the majority of Uk citizens, -both country and town dwellers.


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## Jesstickle (9 September 2013)

horserider said:



			Oh dear, another attempt to sanitise hunting. Cubbing/autumn hunting is merely foreplay for the bloodthirsty. 

No matter how much the hunt supporters shout, it will never be socially acceptable by the majority of Uk citizens, -both country and town dwellers.
		
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I don't really care. Lots of people do lots of things I find unsavory and that is their perogative. Just as it is mine to hunt within the limits of the law. Whether the majority of people find it acceptable or not doesn't overly concern me I'll be brutally honest!


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## MerrySherryRider (9 September 2013)

Jesstickle said:



			I don't really care. Lots of people do lots of things I find unsavory and that is their perogative. Just as it is mine to hunt within the limits of the law. Whether the majority of people find it acceptable or not doesn't overly concern me I'll be brutally honest!
		
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As is your right. And my right not to respect that.


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## twiggy2 (9 September 2013)

Jesstickle said:



			Missed that!

Silly me. I've seen my lurcher kill things up close. It is bloody quick, can only assume the hounds are equally as fast!
		
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for me it is not the killing it is the prolonged hunt and it is why i support the ban on hunting with a pack of hounds

my lurcher has caught many things in the past- many hares we were not out hunting but she was doing what comes naturally, every one of those has gone in the pot and raw left overs in the dogs as at least then they did not die for nothing


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## Jesstickle (9 September 2013)

horserider said:



			As is your right. And my right not to respect that.
		
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Absolutely  Although the name calling isn't terribly becoming of you...  I'm not particularly 'bloodthirsty' believe it or not and I certainly don't think of cubbing as foreplay. I try my hardest to only buy ethically reared meat for the table, I treat my own animals impeccably, I can't stand war and verge on the side of pacifism. I enjoy hunting and I find it a lot less cruel than the way a lot of intensively farmed meat is kept. I also find it less cruel than poison and the incorrect use of traps in controlling the fox population. I have weighed up both sides of the argument and made my decision. I am not sure why the antis feel the need to be rude about it really.


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## happyhunter123 (9 September 2013)

horserider said:



			Oh dear, another attempt to sanitise hunting. Cubbing/autumn hunting is merely foreplay for the bloodthirsty.
		
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I don't think that people who go out hunting are especially bloodthirsty. I know I'm not.


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## Leo Walker (9 September 2013)

twiggy2 said:



			a lurcher will catch its quarry in a very short time frame
		
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A GOOD lurcher will, but there are far too many people getting them now without much of a clue and hunting ILLEGALLY with them. I have lurchers but dont hunt foxes but i know an awful lot that do, and there are more bad than good at the minute


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## Nancykitt (9 September 2013)

twiggy2 said:



			i did say a good shot how anyone can be a bad shot on such a young fox and then not follow it to ground to end its suffering is beyond me
		
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Have you ever tried shooting a fox - or anything else, for that matter? It's really not that easy.
Foxes do get wounded and they can run off and 'disappear'  - following them is often just not possible.
If you apply for a firearms license specifically for fox control you're likely to be given permission only for a small bore rifle...shooting to bring about instant death takes some considerable skill, believe me.

I do know people who've shot foxes with a shotgun and killed them, but they were very close to the animal. Anyone attempting this at too great a distance is likely to wound rather than kill.

People often come up with this argument about shooting foxes being the kindest method of control but there's more to it than this.


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## AengusOg (9 September 2013)

Back in the day, when Horse & Hound was full of hunting reports and hunt-related articles, cub-hunting was about entering young hounds, dispersing young foxes, and preparing horses for the season ahead.

What would be the point of 'slaughtering' young foxes before the season even began?


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## Nancykitt (9 September 2013)

Interesting, because that was always my understanding of cub-hunting, more about 'dispersal' than slaughter. I have no direct experience of any form of 'live' cubbing but perhaps the activity varied from hunt to hunt?


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## AdorableAlice (10 September 2013)

Nancykitt said:



			. I have no direct experience of any form of 'live' cubbing but perhaps the activity varied from hunt to hunt?
		
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Not at all.  AengusOg, is totally correct.  All hunts enter young hounds during cub hunting, occasionally you will see a young hound coupled to an experienced hound if the younger hound is a little giddy.

Cub hunting provides the farmer/land owner with a service, by dispersing young foxes, young hounds with education, hunt staff with the opportunity of getting to know any new horses that may have come into kennels and gets the hunt horses fitter.


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## Goldenstar (10 September 2013)

AengusOg said:



			Back in the day, when Horse & Hound was full of hunting reports and hunt-related articles, cub-hunting was about entering young hounds, dispersing young foxes, and preparing horses for the season ahead.

What would be the point of 'slaughtering' young foxes before the season even began?
		
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That's my memory of it too.


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## Nancykitt (10 September 2013)

So the thing about surrounding the wood and sending hounds in to slaughter cubs is not the case - anywhere?

Just interested, really. 

I have to say that I am always at the back and have never jumped a hedge in my life (I'm too much of a wimp), but I have seen hounds pick up on live quarry - both fox and hare - and the huntsman has had to call them off.


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## cptrayes (10 September 2013)

It was routine with the Berkeley in the 1980s and early 90s.

I did it at the invitation of friends of mine who wore hunt buttons and they told me that it was normal.

It may perhaps depend on how large an area the hunt has to disperse hounds within. At the time, it's my understanding that the Berkeley did not have a lot of ground to hunt.


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## happyhunter123 (10 September 2013)

Nancykitt said:



			So the thing about surrounding the wood and sending hounds in to slaughter cubs is not the case - anywhere?
		
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Yes it was the case in some of the country-not _all _of it however. Down here, we never held up coverts. Hunting just proceeded like a normal day in the main season, though we'd cover much less ground. We would try and hunt younger foxes only, but frequently found adult foxes and hunted them too.

Having said that, in the area in which it did take place, it does not mean that hunting would solely consist of holding up. Can't say I have much experience of it though.


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## AengusOg (10 September 2013)

Nancykitt said:



			So the thing about surrounding the wood and sending hounds in to slaughter cubs is not the case - anywhere?
		
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The purpose of cub-hunting was not to slaughter cubs. Hunting was about sport, providing a pest control service, and conservation. If cubs were slaughtered, there would be little to hunt for the remainder of the season. There is no doubt that a few cubs would be caught during such early outings, but the purpose was never to wipe litters of cubs out.

Young hounds learned to hunt, and to be controlled by huntsman and whippers-in, and fox cubs would disperse which is what they would do anyway. Dispersal of young stock from parental territories is a natural phenomenon, and prevents close breeding between related animals. 



Nancykitt said:



			I have seen hounds pick up on live quarry - both fox and hare - and the huntsman has had to call them off.
		
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Hounds have been selectively bred for hundreds of years to hunt. Hunt staff selected their breeding stock from those hounds with the best conformation, scenting ability, and temperament for the job of hunting their quarry, and a change in the law means nothing to a well-bred hound. 

It may be that hounds will be selectively bred in the future to hunt a smelly rag only, and take no interest in live quarry. Many excellent breeds of canine have been ruined by idiotic breeding...the same could be achieved with hounds, although I doubt that hound breeders would be so destructively inclined.


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## Nancykitt (10 September 2013)

Thank you, AengusOg, I have no experience of live hunting but that was my understanding of 'cub hunting'. 
Incidentally, every time I, personally, have seen hounds pick up on a live animal, they have been successfully called off.


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## NellRosk (11 September 2013)

I've been 'cubbing' this season with my hunt and the only way I could describe it is as a big posh hack around countryside I'd never normally be allowed to ride on. Excellent chance to jump a few things and get the young hounds out. We didn't see any foxes, never mind slaughtered any cubs!


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## turkana (11 September 2013)

I only go cubbing/autumn hunting or whatever you want to call it as it's cheap (I can't afford proper hunting) & like NellRosk, for me it's a good way to have a nice hack round over land I wouldn't normally have access to. I've never seen any foxes either!


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## Ditchjumper2 (11 September 2013)

AengusOg said:



			The purpose of cub-hunting was not to slaughter cubs. Hunting was about sport, providing a pest control service, and conservation. If cubs were slaughtered, there would be little to hunt for the remainder of the season. There is no doubt that a few cubs would be caught during such early outings, but the purpose was never to wipe litters of cubs out.

Young hounds learned to hunt, and to be controlled by huntsman and whippers-in, and fox cubs would disperse which is what they would do anyway. Dispersal of young stock from parental territories is a natural phenomenon, and prevents close breeding between related animals. 



Hounds have been selectively bred for hundreds of years to hunt. Hunt staff selected their breeding stock from those hounds with the best conformation, scenting ability, and temperament for the job of hunting their quarry, and a change in the law means nothing to a well-bred hound. 

It may be that hounds will be selectively bred in the future to hunt a smelly rag only, and take no interest in live quarry. Many excellent breeds of canine have been ruined by idiotic breeding...the same could be achieved with hounds, although I doubt that hound breeders would be so destructively inclined.
		
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Agree with this...way back when one used to hunt the cobs for cubbing therefore saving the quality hunters for the season proper. And please don't say I am a cob knocker......I am not that is just how it used to be.

We use earlies (we are harrier pack and "leveretting" just does not work as a title  !!) to enter young hounds, school new hunters, and get the show all ship shape ready for the season ahead. New Masters and hunt staff get acquainted with our ways.

Those of us who hunt, know what is what....those who don't are entitled to their own opinion.


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## AengusOg (11 September 2013)

Ditchjumper2 said:



			Those of us who hunt, know what is what....those who don't are entitled to their own opinion.
		
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I don't hunt, and probably never will, but that doesn't stop me educating myself on matters hunting.  I wanted to get into hunting employment when in my late teens and, after making some enquiries, was offered a job as kennel-huntsman with a well-known Scottish hunt. Unfortunately, I failed my driving test and had to pass the opportunity up. I never got another chance.


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## Ditchjumper2 (12 September 2013)

AengusOg said:



			I don't hunt, and probably never will, but that doesn't stop me educating myself on matters hunting.  I wanted to get into hunting employment when in my late teens and, after making some enquiries, was offered a job as kennel-huntsman with a well-known Scottish hunt. Unfortunately, I failed my driving test and had to pass the opportunity up. I never got another chance. 

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Sorry I did not mean that those that don't know are not entitled to!


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## AengusOg (12 September 2013)

Ditchjumper2 said:



			Sorry I did not mean that those that don't know are not entitled to! 

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No no, I'm just saying that it's easy to have an interest and to learn about hunting without actually taking part. As you know, there is more to it than killing foxes.


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## Ditchjumper2 (12 September 2013)

AengusOg said:



			No no, I'm just saying that it's easy to have an interest and to learn about hunting without actually taking part. As you know, there is more to it than killing foxes. 

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Very true...but you will not get a true picture on a forum  and that is the truth.


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## kentridingclubber (12 September 2013)

Ditchjumper2 said:



			Those of us who hunt, know what is what....those who don't are entitled to their own opinion.
		
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Quite.

Having followed yesterday I must have missed the murderous part.  Infact I was accosted by a member of the general public, who decided to inform me that "Hunting with hounds is illegal".

Much to absolute giddy amusement a fox then preceded to leg it past all hounds and riders top speed and not one hound even stood a paw out of place.

Good time had by all, expect Mr Fox of course who was out of breath but lives another day (No doubt to be shot very soon, unless he is very Wiley of course).


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## AengusOg (12 September 2013)

I'm a bit sad. I have a huge amount of literature on hunting, from old H&H editions to books (old and modern), and lots of stuff downloaded off the net. 

I also collect prints and hunting-related items, too.


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## FairyLights (12 September 2013)

please explain the difference to me. I put down rat poison in my barn and also go ratting with my JRT. If I didnt kill the rats we would be over run. Most seem to approve of this. Likewise foxes need their numbers reducing or we'd be over run with mangey foxes biting people [see media press cutting, foxes biting babies and so on].So whats wrong with finding and killing them? They too are vermin.  There is a purpose , a result and a social good. So why do the same people who approve of rat control, condem fox control?


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## kentridingclubber (13 September 2013)

Horsesforever1 said:



			please explain the difference to me. I put down rat poison in my barn and also go ratting with my JRT. If I didnt kill the rats we would be over run. Most seem to approve of this. Likewise foxes need their numbers reducing or we'd be over run with mangey foxes biting people [see media press cutting, foxes biting babies and so on].So whats wrong with finding and killing them? They too are vermin.  There is a purpose , a result and a social good. So why do the same people who approve of rat control, condem fox control?
		
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Or think its ok to shoot them which is less likely to kill them instantly.


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## cptrayes (13 September 2013)

kentridingclubber said:



			Or think its ok to shoot them which is less likely to kill them instantly.
		
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This argument only succeeds if you ignore the repeated chases before a Fox is killed.

Around me, they have been successfully shot when required for twenty years or more. I ride all over the area and I have never seen a mangy or a half shot Fox.

There are marksmen who have posted on this board before who are utterly sick of the fact that their help was wanted while the ban was actively being fought, only for people to turn round since and say that they leave foxes to die in agony.


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## Clodagh (13 September 2013)

As someone of 40+ who hunted for 25 seasons, I would say cubbing from pre hunting ban to now has been a fairly seamless change. I love the pro hunt 'only we know about the countryside' people on here! The hunt still meet at ours but I no longer follow, I am so on the fence about it. Cubbing is teaching the hounds to kill, no one cares if the foxes are dispersed or not. If you wanted to disperse them you wouldn't sit round the covert tapping your whip and making a noise - albeit that is only done on private out the way woods now.
We now shoot our foxes, 20 so far this year, all dead before they hit the ground. I have seen one fox that had been shot and injured and that was by an airgun, which is as illegal as straightforward hunting with hounds.


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## Nancykitt (13 September 2013)

Clodagh said:



			I have seen one fox that had been shot and injured and that was by an airgun, which is as illegal as straightforward hunting with hounds.
		
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Really? Although it is certainly not advisable to shoot a fox with an air rifle I have never seen or heard anything to say that it is illegal? Infact, looking at a recent 'Fieldsports Britain' video there is a very powerful large caliber air rifle (FAC) that seems to be marketed for that purpose.  It is a controversial weapon and, in my view, not something that I would want to use on a fox - but it is certainly not illegal, and the testers confirmed that it would deliver a shot comparable to a .22 rimfire rifle. Even though it is an air rifle, it is my understanding that a firearms license is required. 

I am just concerned that some people are under the impression that shooting foxes is 'easy' and always results in a quick death. In my experience, this is definitely not the case.


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## Clodagh (14 September 2013)

Nancykitt said:



			Really? Although it is certainly not advisable to shoot a fox with an air rifle I have never seen or heard anything to say that it is illegal? Infact, looking at a recent 'Fieldsports Britain' video there is a very powerful large caliber air rifle (FAC) that seems to be marketed for that purpose.  It is a controversial weapon and, in my view, not something that I would want to use on a fox - but it is certainly not illegal, and the testers confirmed that it would deliver a shot comparable to a .22 rimfire rifle. Even though it is an air rifle, it is my understanding that a firearms license is required. 

I am just concerned that some people are under the impression that shooting foxes is 'easy' and always results in a quick death. In my experience, this is definitely not the case.
		
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Sorry, I thought it was illegal, I don't know anyone that would use or advise as suitable an airgun for a fox.
It is much easier and more efficient to shoot them than to hunt them.


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## paddocktractor (14 September 2013)

The sick ,old and often suffering from been clipped by cars were mainly the foxes that were killed before the ban .
 People hunt because they enjoy been out in country that they wouldn't normally have access to and with a group of other people on horses 
If they only did it out of blood thirst then why is it still popular after the ban.
 These so called cruel people are trying to keep and create a habitat and surrounding that wildlife can live in and makes good country to hunt over.


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## JulesRules (14 September 2013)

As I plan to take my horse cubbing to try to liven her up, I have been doing lots of reading on the pro hunt/anti hunt argument as I'm still not sure where I sit. One argument for hunting as opposed to shooting is that hunting promotes Survival of the fittest whereas shooting is indiscriminate. 

Once I have been cubbing maybe I will be able to report back what actually happens.


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## Shysmum (14 September 2013)

"Cubbing" is used regularly by terrier men to train their young dogs. BEHIND the scenes.  i have seen videos of this (and the sexual excitement it caused for a few really nasty blokes) ....the suffering of both the cubs and the terriers was dreadful. And yes, they were investigated.

This was in Surrey.  

Perhaps, whilst sitting on your horses, you are not aware of what work is being carried out by the terrier men - IMHO, the really nasty, truly evil  side of hunting. All hushed up.


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## marianne1981 (14 September 2013)

The thing I struggle to understand though, is that if it really is survival of the fittest, how is that so when even if the fox has given a good chase, but gone to ground, he is still dug out by terrier men? That is not fair. It wouldnt be as bad if the fox had at least a sporting chance, but when they are ultimately going to die even if they go to ground and got away that is not right.


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## Shysmum (14 September 2013)

It is the terrier men who have a LOT to answer for. One guy comes into our local with his terrier, and it's face is mashed to pieces.. I sooooooooooo want to say something serious to his face, but it isn't my job any more.


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## marianne1981 (14 September 2013)

I totally agree Shysmum and we posted at the exact same time with the same subject. It must be thrilling to go hunting and I would love to try drag hunting/bloodhounds but I bet all the people sitting on their horses fox hunting having a nice day conveniently forget the reality of the darker side of hunting. I am very interested in hunting but totally against it, it is very interesting particularly the older books, as they didnt have anything to hide then and so wrote it as it is....

 "Never lose sight of the fact that one really well-beaten cub killed fair and square is worth half a dozen fresh ones killed the moment they are found without hounds having to set themselves to the task. It is essential that hounds should have their blood up and learn to be savage with their fox before he is killed."
Cubbing as described in an extract from Fox hunting by the late Duke of Beaufort, Master of Fox Hounds, published by David & Charles, 1980.


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## Shysmum (14 September 2013)

Out of sight, out of mind.  very convenient, eh ?  I suspect that many of these hunters have no idea how it all really works. All such a jolly day, eh ? 

A captured animal is protected under UK law, and the foxes/cubs that are trapped are being held captive. That includes foxes trapped and released just for the enjoyment of the hunt. And yes they ARE folks. And so are badgers for that matter. 

 I cannot understand why so many people think that hunting is within the law, just because they do not see what goes on out of eye shot.  

It is terribly cruel, terrible painful for the trapped fox and terrier, and totally illegal. But hey, what the hell, it's damn good fun.


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## Tiffany (14 September 2013)

Killing wth hounds is not what I would call natural


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## Countryman (14 September 2013)

There seems to be a lot of rubbish being posted on this thread, particularly about terrierwork, by people who have never one hunting and resort to sound bites from Saboteur websites. Badgers being released for hounds to hunt?! How ridiculous! 

Remember, properly conducted, pre-ban fox hunting was a combination of three things; Sport, Wildlife Management, and Pest Control. 

Sport-the mounted field crossing country at pace, a pack of hounds working together to puzzle out a line and follow it.

Wildlife management -culling old sick weak, diseased and injured foxes, allowing the strong to survive and improving the health of the local fox population.

Pest Control - Primarily done via Terrierwork. Problem foxes if put to ground can be dug out to be shot at the landowners request. 



Terrierwork if done properly can be an effective and humane method of pest control. It is a method used by farmers and keepers -and anyone with permission and a terrier across the countryside. When used by the Hunt, it is not in a sporting role, it is for pest control pure and simple. 

A Hunt Terrierman was a humane expert, who had to be fully trained, registered with the MFHA and licensed by the Home Office. 
If pre-ban hounds marked a fox to ground, it would be dug if the landowner or keeper insisted on it. Remember hunts aimed for a balanced, healthy fox population. Digging a fox pre ban was fairly quick and humane. The terrier used had to be 'soft' -it was not allowed to attack the fox just to bark at it. Any terrier that attacked or tried to fight a fox could not be used in digging again. Anyway, the terrier would bark at the fox and confront it- a not unnatural emotion for the fox similar to his vying for territory with other foxes. This kept the fox in one place until it had been dug down to when it was shot. A Quick, well regulated and humane pest control service for farmers.


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## Shysmum (14 September 2013)

It is very interesting how many people think that killing one canine species with another is not actually natural.


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## Tiffany (14 September 2013)

paddocktractor said:



			The sick ,old and often suffering from been clipped by cars were mainly the foxes that were killed before the ban .
 People hunt because they enjoy been out in country that they wouldn't normally have access to and with a group of other people on horses 
If they only did it out of blood thirst then why is it still popular after the ban.
 These so called cruel people are trying to keep and create a habitat and surrounding that wildlife can live in and makes good country to hunt over.
		
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Could it be that people who are blood thirsty don't mind if it's illegal or not. There are some who enjoy things more when they know they shouldn't be doing it.


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## Shysmum (14 September 2013)

good point. Could it partly be about all the dressing up and "having the right clothing, and horse turnout" that I've seen. Oh yes, so posh to go out and do what is done. URGH.

I can not get my head round someone loving a horse, and their dogs - and then justifying hunting.

Not forgetting that the whole thing is ILLEGAL.


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## Countryman (14 September 2013)

Another major misconception people seem to have about Autumn Hunting - perhaps perpetuated by those wo know it's not true but wish to discredit hunting - is that it is about "training hounds to kill by wiping out all the cubs in a wood". This was never what it was about.

Pre Ban, It was primarily to train the young hounds NOT how to kill -all dogs instinctively know how to kill their prey because it is natural - It was to train them to hunt using their noses. This is why it took place in the cool coverts where there was some scent. It was also to disperse the "cubs" - bear in mind a "cub" is a fully grown fox in September, and provided an element of pest control in areas with perhaps too many foxes, killing a few weak ones.


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## Fiagai (15 September 2013)

Shysmum said:



			It is very interesting how many people think that killing one canine species with another is not actually natural.
		
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Shysmum - a bit of a bee in the bonnet there by the looks of it ....

Firstly the hunting act allows exemptions  - this may not be traditional cub hunting but young and older foxes are now legally shot
Probably not natural either but they you are.

Secondly humans using hawks etc to kill pigeons would be also unnatural by your definition. But guess what - this does happen in the wild already and is 'natural'

Predation does not normally commit to non specific animal species - there are plenty of examples of this in nature

Foxes are opportunists and will prey upon just about anything - they rarely discriminate. See for  example http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/a...head-urban-fox-bitten-Surely-wouldnt-die.html

There are plenty of other examples of foxes and this type of behaviour

As fox hunting is now restricted we have mainly shooting to control fox populations. 

Whilst there are excellent & skilled individuals who can and do shoot properly - however too often the quality of marksmanship leaves foxes shot and wounded to die a lingering death - this did not happen with hounds. 

Foxes hunt and there is nothing wrong with that in my opinion.


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## Clodagh (15 September 2013)

I am not totally against hunting although I wouldn't go any more but...
foxes were/are/whatever killed on days when the scent is good. A screaming scent and the right weather conditions means any fox no matter how fit or healthy is more likely to die. An old mangey one could get away on a day when the scent is poor.
Foxes are chopped if they don't hop up and run quick enough, their health is irrelevant.
Heavily pregnant vixens are slow and easy prey.
I agree that hunting is better for the whole population - we have as near to zero foxes on our land now that we lamp them, when we were rabid hunting fans they were all allowed to live so the hunt was guaranteed a find when they came here.
If cubbing was to disperse foxes why is the covert surrounded? Surely to make it easier for the hounds?


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## Countryman (15 September 2013)

Clodagh said:



			I am not totally against hunting although I wouldn't go any more but...
foxes were/are/whatever killed on days when the scent is good. A screaming scent and the right weather conditions means any fox no matter how fit or healthy is more likely to die. An old mangey one could get away on a day when the scent is poor.
Foxes are chopped if they don't hop up and run quick enough, their health is irrelevant.
Heavily pregnant vixens are slow and easy prey.
I agree that hunting is better for the whole population - we have as near to zero foxes on our land now that we lamp them, when we were rabid hunting fans they were all allowed to live so the hunt was guaranteed a find when they came here.
If cubbing was to disperse foxes why is the covert surrounded? Surely to make it easier for the hounds?
		
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Clodagh, it is true that a good scent will help the hounds-but it does not automatically follow that any healthy fox would be killed! Many healthy foxes got away even on days with a screaming scent. Likewise on bad scenting days, it is likely that an injured fox would still be caught by the hounds - though as you say it gets less likely. However, hunting is not a precise science so these things happen-but it is a pretty good way to manage a fox population. 

As for chopping foxes, its wrong to think they are chopped just because they don't run. Any fox will run to keep away from the unknown that is a human rambler, or dog walker, so they certainly do when a pack of hounds enters their covert. Some foxes are chopped-why have they not run? Almost always because they are too sick to move, too injured to move quickly, blind, deaf or unable to smell. In these cases, the hunt is doing these foxes a service and euthanising them from the miserable life of starvation they will be suffering from. That is what happens when a fox gets old. Its body wears out-it may go blind, or its teeth may fall out-and it slowly starves to death. A  quick chop is infinitely preferable. 

Your point about heavily pregnant vixens making slow and easy prey is entirely wrong. Remember, hounds hunt by scent. By a quirk of nature, heavily pregnant vixens give off no scent; even on a day with perfect scenting conditions, a great pack of hounds would be hard pressed to hunt a pregnant vixen more than a few yards. 

The point you make is true about hunting being better for the fox population - many hunting farmers will not shoot their foxes, but will allow the hunt to manage them so that there is a sustainable population.

You seem sceptical that cubbing is to disperse foxes. It is the primary aim, along with training the hounds to hunt (not to kill) and with pest control in areas with too many foxes or where the landowner demands it. 

These 'cubs' - I use the term in inverted commas because they are fully grown - remain in the same area-a couple of hedgrerows and a wood for instance, where they were born. This is not good for them, as they fight among themselves and depopulate that area of prey, while allowing other areas with no foxes to have their prey species grow unchecked. It is better for all if the fox population is spread out and not concentrated. Farmers also prefer this-many keepers can tolerate the odd fox on their land, but would exterminate all of them if they found there were 5 in their best wood. 

You will be aware most covers were not surrounded, though some were. This is because, due to the heat in September, scent is often non existant outside of the covert. Keeping the foxes inside didn't really make the job easier for the hounds, it just let them hunt at all! As time went on, by October most foxes were allowed to cross country -though hounds have no hope of catching them in October due to the (relative) bad scent, it was good training for the hounds to puzzle out a line across country. People seem to think that a fox would necessarily be killed in the wood if it was surrounded. Not true at all.  Once the hounds had had a good run around in it they would often be taken out. If there were too many foxes in the area, hounds *might* be allowed to kill one. It was all part of dispersing foxes, and managing an area's fox population.


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## happyhunter123 (15 September 2013)

On the subject of hunting being 'natural', here is an interesting video of some wolves chasing and killing a coyote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXCvLzDNWz0


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## Shysmum (15 September 2013)

At the end of the day, hunts will carry on whatever. They are that arrogant.  Foxes will be killed by  hounds. That is why people get all dressed up - for the kill.  The "given right" will continue. Terrier men will continue to torture foxes and cubs.  The law will be ignored. 

But I will not turn a blind eye to the law. I simply care too much, and think hunting is outdated and a very nasty lifestyle. AND ILLEGAL.

Hmmm - thinking it may be time for Shy and I to retire to a new forum.  We are not really into hunting are we


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## Countryman (15 September 2013)

Shysmum said:



			They are that arrogant.  Foxes will be killed by  hounds. 
That is why people get all dressed up - for the kill.  The "given right" will continue. 

But I will not turn a blind eye to the law. 
I simply care too much, and think hunting is outdated and a very nasty lifestyle. AND ILLEGAL
		
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Unfortunately this post epitomises the typical uninformed, self-righteous anti-hunt mindset. Firstly their dislike of hunting is first expressed in that hunts are "arrogant" and think they have a "given right". Then comes the ridiculous assertion that people "dress up" for the kill! Now that truly is an absurd statement and nullifies any points previously made by the poster. It makes me wonder whether they know anybody who knows anybody who has ever been hunting! It is such a false statement. 

Lastly the poster gives away perhaps her primary reason for her opposition to hunting - that it is an outdated and nasty way of life. She seems to think that that is a reason to ban it.


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## marianne1981 (15 September 2013)

Another subject entirely, and I may be wrong,  but does anyone recall the Isle of Wight originally had no foxes on it and they were actually brought over in order to hunt them? Also, Countryman, I realise what you are saying sounds kind of humane re the terrier work, but do you really think that everyone does it by the book? I doubt it really happens like that unfortunately. If a fox has given a good chase and gone to ground, he should win and be given a sporting chance. All the people who say that it is only the weak ones that get killed, how does that apply when a healthy fox has gone to ground and is going to die anyway? What I cannot understand is (despite trying to over the years) is how you can justify anything- why are hounds bred for stamina and not speed? Surely it would be more humane if you were hunting an animal, for it to be a quick chase and not a prolonged one? But then, I suppose that would ruin the fields thrilling long chase which is what you probably enjoy most (the equestrian people anyway).


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## A1fie (16 September 2013)

marianne1981 said:



			Another subject entirely, and I may be wrong,  but does anyone recall the Isle of Wight originally had no foxes on it and they were actually brought over in order to hunt them? Also, Countryman, I realise what you are saying sounds kind of humane re the terrier work, but do you really think that everyone does it by the book? I doubt it really happens like that unfortunately. If a fox has given a good chase and gone to ground, he should win and be given a sporting chance. All the people who say that it is only the weak ones that get killed, how does that apply when a healthy fox has gone to ground and is going to die anyway? What I cannot understand is (despite trying to over the years) is how you can justify anything- why are hounds bred for stamina and not speed? Surely it would be more humane if you were hunting an animal, for it to be a quick chase and not a prolonged one? But then, I suppose that would ruin the fields thrilling long chase which is what you probably enjoy most (the equestrian people anyway).
		
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The thing is Marianne - a hunted fox that had gone to ground still needed to be dispatched as that would have been the purpose of hunting it, not for the 'sport'.

Hounds are bred for stamina as they needed to be fit enough to be out for hours.  Before the ban hounds were unlikely to have been hunting a fox for hours but they would have been constantly on the move and they needed to be fit. 

I have to say that I like the way that you try to understand the arguments for hunting, even if you don't agree with them..  Questioning things is good and although you might not ever agree with hunting, at least you are considering all sides without resorting to personal abuse


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## Doug (16 September 2013)

As most hunts are treating the ban as temporary, maybe they don't want to change what they call the activities to avoid confusion for when (if) the act gets repealed.


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## BWa (16 September 2013)

Our pest control man uses a terrier to flush foxes, he shoots them but he doesnt put out snares. All those are legal and nothing to do with the local hunt, we do it protect our lambs and game birds. That's the issue though isn't. It is perfectly legal to snare a fox and only check that snare once every 24 hours, but people only consider pre ban hunting to be cruel. Open your eyes folks, the ban did nothing to protect foxes


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## cptrayes (16 September 2013)

BWa said:



			Our pest control man uses a terrier to flush foxes, he shoots them but he doesnt put out snares. All those are legal and nothing to do with the local hunt, we do it protect our lambs and game birds. That's the issue though isn't. It is perfectly legal to snare a fox and only check that snare once every 24 hours, but people only consider pre ban hunting to be cruel. Open your eyes folks, the ban did nothing to protect foxes
		
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Why do you assume that I and others approve of snares? It is possible to believe that something which is legal is wrong, just as I did with Fox hunting pre ban. I think snares are foul. 

Why do you also assume that all  those who are against hunting with hounds disapprove of killing pest foxes? It's clear that most of us don't, we just don't like the way you choose to do it.


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## BWa (16 September 2013)

You have taken my post the wrong way Cptrayes, I am completely against the ban, I don't like snares. I am a paid up member of my local hunt supporters club and if I had a sane horse when he hears the hounds and a better pair of brave pants I would be out with the field, not just on foot. 
However my point was to the folks saying how cruel autumn hunting is. The ban was never about the fox but about the lifestyle choices of the hunting folk IMO. 
Didn't mean to offend you.


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## marianne1981 (16 September 2013)

Thank you A1fie, it is nice of you to say that. I am not on here to be abusive, it is not my thing, but it is interesting to hear all the different opinions. CpTrayes I have always thought how well constructed your posts are and it's interesting that you have actually hunted and changed your mind. Was there a turning point or a certain thing that triggered you to stop? Since I was a little girl I have found foxhunting both awful but fascinating and I am drawn to learning about it. I will certainly never be pro hunting but I would love to go out with bloodhounds one day, it must be so much fun.

But I often find holes in things pro's say... e.g many a time people on here have argued that it's only the weaker, older foxes that you almost "weed out", but then you have just said, it doesnt matter if the fox is a fit and healthy one or not, it will still be killed. There are so many contradictions in hunting.


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## dogatemysalad (16 September 2013)

Shysmum said:



			Hmmm - thinking it may be time for Shy and I to retire to a new forum.  We are not really into hunting are we 

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Don't do that. Hunting is only a very small part of the forum and an activity supported by a minority. They aren't representative of the several million horse riders in the UK.


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## Nancykitt (16 September 2013)

Shysmum said:



			At the end of the day, hunts will carry on whatever. They are that arrogant.  Foxes will be killed by  hounds. That is why people get all dressed up - for the kill.
		
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This is one of the daftest things I've ever read on the hunting forum! Presumably the poster is against 'dressing up' for shows, dressage etc too? And are those activities OK because they are not 'posh'?

I have never been 'live' hunting in my life as I only started hunting post-ban. I currently hunt with a bloodhound pack  - and hunting with bloodhounds has never involved a kill. I still get 'dressed up' and make sure my pony is clean and smart. Absolutely nothing to do with getting dressed up 'for the kill'!

And as for 'posh' - I'd suggest that anyone who thinks this has never been out hunting, you really do get people from all walks of life. I do not think of myself as posh, I was born and lived for 18 years on a rough council estate. Not exactly the landed gentry!


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## Copperpot (16 September 2013)

I believe you can still use a terrier to dig to a fox as long as the terrier "bays" and the fox is shot when it is reached. As for the terriers not wanting to do it, tell that to my 4 month old fell terrier who I cannot keep out of holes! If you have the landowners permission I  am pretty sure terrier work properly carried out is not illegal, for instance in the protection of game birds on a shoot.


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## cptrayes (16 September 2013)

marianne1981 said:



			CpTrayes I have always thought how well constructed your posts are and it's interesting that you have actually hunted and changed your mind. Was there a turning point or a certain thing that triggered you to stop? 
.
		
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Yes, I was out with The Curre on a day I still remember well, and for the first time I saw a Fox running for its life. Its ears were back and I am certain that it was aware of huge danger and possible imminent death.

From that day on I could not accept that it was right to chase live quarry before killing it. It's not the kill that is unacceptable to me, it's the chase. And therefore I have no truck with the argument that healthy foxes live to be chased again, that for me is simply prolonging the death.  And the idea that it is right to cull a sick or injured Fox by hunting it down with a pack of hounds first does not wash either.

I have really tried to understand the opposing point of view. Janet George has been immensely patient with me.  But in the end, having studied the conservation arguments, I have come to what for me is an inescapable conclusion. That the conservation aspect of Fox management simply serves to create a healthier and stronger population which can run faster and further to give the field more fun.

I am sorry if this offends anyone, it is simply how I feel as a resident in a very rural area which has controlled foxes by shooting  for twenty years and more.


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## twiggy2 (17 September 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Yes, I was out with The Curre on a day I still remember well, and for the first time I saw a Fox running for its life. Its ears were back and I am certain that it was aware of huge danger and possible imminent death.

From that day on I could not accept that it was right to chase live quarry before killing it. It's not the kill that is unacceptable to me, it's the chase. And therefore I have no truck with the argument that healthy foxes live to be chased again, that for me is simply prolonging the death.  And the idea that it is right to cull a sick or injured Fox by hunting it down with a pack of hounds first does not wash either.

I have really tried to understand the opposing point of view. Janet George has been immensely patient with me.  But in the end, having studied the conservation arguments, I have come to what for me is an inescapable conclusion. That the conservation aspect of Fox management simply serves to create a healthier and stronger population which can run faster and further to give the field more fun.

I am sorry if this offends anyone, it is simply how I feel as a resident in a very rural area which has controlled foxes by shooting  for twenty years and more.
		
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I am with you all they way on this one, you have described exactly how I feel


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## twiggy2 (17 September 2013)

Countryman said:



			Clodagh, it is true that a good scent will help the hounds-but it does not automatically follow that any healthy fox would be killed! Many healthy foxes got away even on days with a screaming scent. Likewise on bad scenting days, it is likely that an injured fox would still be caught by the hounds - though as you say it gets less likely. However, hunting is not a precise science so these things happen-but it is a pretty good way to manage a fox population. 

As for chopping foxes, its wrong to think they are chopped just because they don't run. Any fox will run to keep away from the unknown that is a human rambler, or dog walker, so they certainly do when a pack of hounds enters their covert. Some foxes are chopped-why have they not run? Almost always because they are too sick to move, too injured to move quickly, blind, deaf or unable to smell. In these cases, the hunt is doing these foxes a service and euthanising them from the miserable life of starvation they will be suffering from. That is what happens when a fox gets old. Its body wears out-it may go blind, or its teeth may fall out-and it slowly starves to death. A  quick chop is infinitely preferable. 

Your point about heavily pregnant vixens making slow and easy prey is entirely wrong. Remember, hounds hunt by scent. By a quirk of nature, heavily pregnant vixens give off no scent; even on a day with perfect scenting conditions, a great pack of hounds would be hard pressed to hunt a pregnant vixen more than a few yards. 

The point you make is true about hunting being better for the fox population - many hunting farmers will not shoot their foxes, but will allow the hunt to manage them so that there is a sustainable population.

You seem sceptical that cubbing is to disperse foxes. It is the primary aim, along with training the hounds to hunt (not to kill) and with pest control in areas with too many foxes or where the landowner demands it. 

These 'cubs' - I use the term in inverted commas because they are fully grown - remain in the same area-a couple of hedgrerows and a wood for instance, where they were born. This is not good for them, as they fight among themselves and depopulate that area of prey, while allowing other areas with no foxes to have their prey species grow unchecked. It is better for all if the fox population is spread out and not concentrated. Farmers also prefer this-many keepers can tolerate the odd fox on their land, but would exterminate all of them if they found there were 5 in their best wood. 

You will be aware most covers were not surrounded, though some were. This is because, due to the heat in September, scent is often non existant outside of the covert. Keeping the foxes inside didn't really make the job easier for the hounds, it just let them hunt at all! As time went on, by October most foxes were allowed to cross country -though hounds have no hope of catching them in October due to the (relative) bad scent, it was good training for the hounds to puzzle out a line across country. People seem to think that a fox would necessarily be killed in the wood if it was surrounded. Not true at all.  Once the hounds had had a good run around in it they would often be taken out. If there were too many foxes in the area, hounds *might* be allowed to kill one. It was all part of dispersing foxes, and managing an area's fox population.
		
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On one yard where I tend some horses there is a vixen that has raised cubs for the last 3 yrs, she has a deformed leg that looks to have been caused by a break, I used to live on this farm and have regularly seen the vixen catching prey and teaching her cubs to do the same. she hardly uses the deformed leg and her condition is always good. Lamping is carried out on this farm but not on the yard and in the grazing fields, I have seen this vixen much further out than the grazing fields extend but she has not appeared in the scope in an area deemed safe to shoot. A trap was set up and left out for the winter when she was first seen with the injury she has never gone in that although a few of her cubs have and the distress it causes them is extreme so the trap has been removed. 

This is all leading to the fact that this vixen lives on a farm/yard where the hunt regularly meet, I have seen the hounds in pursuit of this vixen 5 times and the first time I just hoped it would be as swift and end as it could be, now I always hope she gets away she has earnt her right to be on the yard and be left to get on with things, she causes no harm and is often seen (when her cubs have left) sitting alongside the yard cat like old friends. 

her cubs are usually shot as they leave the area-it is a quick and and causes no distress to the cubs.

Hunting is not a quick end, they do not catch all the sick or injured, it is definatly not without distress and suffering and most of the people I know that hunt try to justify it by saying they dont often catch very often the rest just say they keep the numbers down. you cannot have it both ways.

i dont like it and do not think it can be justified.

I am up for hunting if the whole thing is quick-watching my lurcher do what comes naturally is amazing, beautiful and quick-so i am not in the fluffy bunny brigade but fox hunting with hounds just does not sit easy with me


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## tootsietoo (17 September 2013)

This is all so confusing, we tie ourselves in knots over what is right and what is wrong.  I think (very luckily for us) that most of us are very disconnected from death these days - people, farm animals, wild animals - so that we don't know how to deal with it.  There are good deaths and bad deaths of every sort of living thing, in every sort of way.  Two people can watch exactly the same incident of death and see it differently and be affected by it differently.  It is sometimes impossible to make an objective judgement over what methods are bad and what are good.  I've been thinking about this a bit lately as I had to send two horse to be shot last week, the first time I've ever had to make that decision for an animal.  I know that I think that that is a good death for a horse, but my friend can't bear the idea of the loudness and "violence" of the shot.  I've seen a fox in the last few moments before hounds killed it and found it hard to watch, but seen a lurcher catch a rabbit and not found it hard to watch.  I think it is down to the precise detail of the situations.  If the management of wild animal populations is accepted as necessary then surely a pack of hounds has a place in that management, we just need to make sure that it is carried out as humanely as other methods of culling animals, all of which can be acceptable or unacceptable depending on who is doing it and the individual situation.


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## marianne1981 (17 September 2013)

I just dont get all the contradictions, one person (usually those taking part for the equestrian side) will say that they dont kill many, or that it is the old and weak only, then another person will say that it is very necessary to keep numbers down! And not one pro has answered, if it is simply for pest control, why did they introduce foxes to the Isle of Wight for hunting? That to me speaks volumes.

 I do realise that at times foxes can be a nuisance and need some kind of control, but hunting just seems very inefficient and certainly not the most humane way. You see so many foxes run over these days it makes me wonder how that is not enough to keep numbers down. As when fox hunting first started, there were no cars. I am pretty much certain (and I hope that even a pro can accept this) that when fox hunting first began, it was nothing to do with pest control but far more a "sport".

Cptrayes that is really interesting that it was one moment that changed you forever. Did you grow up in a hunting family? Sorry for all the questions but it is very interesting, the fact that you have actually hunted and turned against it gives you more credibility than just the typical townie that the pro's think all antis are!


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## cptrayes (17 September 2013)

I didn't own a horse until I was 23 or hunt until I was 30. I hunted as a guest with friends with three different hunts. It was brilliant fun until I was facedv that day with the reality of what I was doing. I only cubbed half a day, I thought it was the most disgusting thing I had ever personally been asked to do.

I adore following hounds across country and I am lucky enough to live in an area with both a drag pack - foxhounds, and a bloodhound pack that hunt a person.

There are as also a number of foxhounds packs near enough to travel to. I cannot go out with any of them because I have it on good authority that they all hunt fox, despite the ban.


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## RunToEarth (18 September 2013)

twiggy2 said:



			for me the cruelty is not in the way the fox is killed but in the fact is is hunted and running for its life over what is often a prolonged period of time. the fear and exhaustion is the cruelty.

a good shot will take a fox out with no fear OR suffering

a lurcher will catch its quarry in a very short time frame
		
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Asides from the "cubbing" debate - this annoys me. 

I shoot, I enjoy shooting, we put a lot of game down every year. I hunt (within the law) and I am passionate about both. I love seeing a fox about, I honestly do. 

A good shot will take anything out, with no fear and suffering. There are, of course, a lot of bad shots out there. A snare has the capability to entrap any fox, young, old, healthy or ill. 

A healthy fox is not going to get caught by a pack of foxhounds, an old one most likely will, and it seemed a sensible way to control a population without contoversy for a good few centuries. 

I take issue with these people who believe we let nature be nature, after human intervention has altered a system so much over so many years that it is not possible to just let nature be nature - what creature in this country we haven't already irradicated would possibly prey on a fox or a badger?

I understand people don't share my views - but don't think we are a bloodthirsty group, because we're not - there isn't a supporter or a huntsman or a whip out there who doesn't have respect for the fox.


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## hnmisty (18 September 2013)

AdorableAlice said:



			Here we go, the town folk versus the countryside folk.
		
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This is so laughably ridiculous that by page 4 of this threat I was still chuckling to myself that someone could be so ignorant.

FYI, I am Somerset born and bred. My dad is a DEFRA vet, and we keep sheep. And I don't support hunting. Guess I must have hallucinated having fields outside my bedroom window then, as I clearly actually grew up in a town. My neighbour sits in his field and pot shots rabbits, I support deer culls (and the badger cull, if I dare bring that up), but not hunting with a pack of dogs.


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## twiggy2 (18 September 2013)

RunToEarth said:



			Asides from the "cubbing" debate - this annoys me. 

I shoot, I enjoy shooting, we put a lot of game down every year. I hunt (within the law) and I am passionate about both. I love seeing a fox about, I honestly do. 

A good shot will take anything out, with no fear and suffering. There are, of course, a lot of bad shots out there. A snare has the capability to entrap any fox, young, old, healthy or ill. 

A healthy fox is not going to get caught by a pack of foxhounds, an old one most likely will, and it seemed a sensible way to control a population without contoversy for a good few centuries. 

I take issue with these people who believe we let nature be nature, after human intervention has altered a system so much over so many years that it is not possible to just let nature be nature - what creature in this country we haven't already irradicated would possibly prey on a fox or a badger?

I understand people don't share my views - but don't think we are a bloodthirsty group, because we're not - there isn't a supporter or a huntsman or a whip out there who doesn't have respect for the fox.
		
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No idea why you open with the line 'Asides from the "cubbing" debate - this annoys me. ' in response to the quote of mine you have offered as non of your response seems to address anything directly from that quote.

A healthy fox that trips, falls, stumbles, is outwitted by the huntsman/hounds or makes the wrong decision about which way to run, or finds a dog walker that forces them to alter direction loses time to the hounds will IMO be likely to fall prey to the hounds. 

We can all agree to disagree


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## RunToEarth (18 September 2013)

twiggy2 said:



			No idea why you open with the line 'Asides from the "cubbing" debate - this annoys me. ' in response to the quote of mine you have offered as non of your response seems to address anything directly from that quote.

A healthy fox that trips, falls, stumbles, is outwitted by the huntsman/hounds or makes the wrong decision about which way to run, or finds a dog walker that forces them to alter direction loses time to the hounds will IMO be likely to fall prey to the hounds. 

We can all agree to disagree
		
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Because the original debate was regarding the term used for cub hunting. 

My point was that not everyone has the same objectives with regard to population control of foxes. Keepers of grouse moors most strive for a monoculture of grouse, smaller farm shoots are often happy for their shoot to feed the foxes to a certain extent. Not everyone with a shotgun or a rifle is the marksman they think they are. Granted a fox in a snare is going to meet its death, cleanly or not, but there are a great deal of people with rifles I would not trust to cleanly dispatch a fox out lamping, and they will be the ones wondering around for a few days.


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## Judgemental (18 September 2013)

There are a considerable number of terms which enrich our whole society.

For example The Chief Whip or a Whipped Vote at the House of Commons.

I don't think it makes any difference now. The Hunting Act 2004 is here to stay and there is nothing in the act that says we should not use the ancient terms in long use by those who hunt.  

Indeed in the circumstances the 'terms' should be retained by way of symbolic adherence to the whole panoply of hunting and tapestry that we all enjoy.

I also feel it confuses the enemy and the more confusion the better.


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## KEF (21 September 2013)

oakash said:



			I have to agree that people use the language they wish to. What I find objectional is the way people increasingly refuse to accept we are rational and (reasonably) intelligent animals. History shows that too many of one species becomes a problem. All of us realised that mink and foxes need control - surely the happenings in the city with fox attacks show us that? Why can't all of us accept that culling badgers is the way forward? Silly arguments about badgers moving into empty badger setts are an argument for more extensive culling, not less. If a practical and effective method of vaccination were available, why on earth would it not have been used?  

Culling a few cubs each year by hounds, when foxhunting was legal, was an obvious and natural method, far more in touch with nature than some people's current hysterical objections to it.

Bring back proper hunting if we all want a balanced management of our wildlife.
		
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So what about the increasing human population?


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## marianne1981 (21 September 2013)

Foxes regulate their own numbers, as one is killed, another will move into their place. While I accept that there can be some "problem foxes" I do not accept that hunting is wildlife management. As I said, when hunting was started, it was not for wildlife management at all. Again, why were foxes introduced to the Isle of Wight... for hunting. Crazy or what?!


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## JanetGeorge (21 September 2013)

marianne1981 said:



			Foxes regulate their own numbers, as one is killed, another will move into their place. While I accept that there can be some "problem foxes" I do not accept that hunting is wildlife management. As I said, when hunting was started, it was not for wildlife management at all. Again, why were foxes introduced to the Isle of Wight... for hunting. Crazy or what?!
		
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You're not wrong that introducing foxes purely for hunting is crazy (or worse!)  That's how we ended up with hundreds of thousands of the ruddy things in Australia - with the devastating damage they have done to some unique wildlife species - and the crucifying effect on lambing!  The national cost of direct fox predation of lambs is estimated at more than A$100 million annually!!!

But you're not accurate regarding foxes 'regulating' their own numbers - they WOULD do it if there was NO food for them - but there's always food.  They just get braver as they get hungrier (or tamer if they live in urban areas where people feed them!)

When done properly, hunting was effective 'management' - providing some control, dispersing foxes, keeping them 'scared' of the smell of dogs, and taking out old and infirm foxes (who are THE most likely to prey on the lambing fields!)  But it also provided some protection against undue control - I used to see a fox or two almost every day on my farm - now - I hardly EVER see one because shooting and snaring have increased enormously on neighbouring farms.  Farmers who used to leave fox control to the local hunt, now let in the lads with rifles and spotlights!


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## Honey08 (21 September 2013)

CPtrayes thank you for your posts, saying a lot of what I feel about hunting.  I'm not against culling foxes per sé, but I find the chase the worst thing about hunting.  Hounds are fittened for the purpose, so are horses, foxes are not.  The ones that run for a while and get away are likely to die a slow death after exhausting themselves.  I'd rather see one shot.  Most farmers would do this anyway, rather than hoping that the hunt would be lucky enough to catch one.

And I am another "townie" that has grown up in the countryside on a farm and has worked in the hunting industry as a groom  and has a clear view of hunting  (having been several times) still decided against hunting.


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## CaleruxShearer (21 September 2013)

Shysmum said:



			. That includes foxes trapped and released just for the enjoyment of the hunt. And yes they ARE folks. And so are badgers for that matter.
		
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May I just ask if you have any solid proof of this? Because that's quite an accusation to start banding about. 

Moving on from that and going back to the original question - I have always known autumn hunting as 'cubbing', that is what I as taught in pony club, that is what I was taught when I first started hunting. Occasionally I will call it autumn hunting, but generally always cubbing. I would be I interested to know what kids coming up through the pony club now are taught to call it, I was taught pre-ban and not been involved with the Pony Club for a few years now so somewhat out of touch.


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## Countryman (21 September 2013)

Honey08 said:



			The ones that run for a while and get away are likely to die a slow death after exhausting themselves.
		
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It's no wonder people are against hunting when people like you go around spreading this utter rubbish!

1) The chase is entirely natural to the fox, it has evolved to be able to run.

2) For the vast majority of the chase, the fox is not running at his full capacity-he is just loping along. 

3) Infact, many foxes are not even aware that it is they who are being hunted! 

4) There has NEVER been a case of a fox escaping from hounds only to die from exhaustion. That has never happened and would not happen. Unless you have scientific proof, you should withdraw that statement. I'm sorry, but it is utter rubbish.


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## EAST KENT (22 September 2013)

Countryman said:



			It's no wonder people are against hunting when people like you go around spreading this utter rubbish!

1) The chase is entirely natural to the fox, it has evolved to be able to run.

2) For the vast majority of the chase, the fox is not running at his full capacity-he is just loping along. 

3) Infact, many foxes are not even aware that it is they who are being hunted! 

4) There has NEVER been a case of a fox escaping from hounds only to die from exhaustion. That has never happened and would not happen. Unless you have scientific proof, you should withdraw that statement. I'm sorry, but it is utter rubbish.
		
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  As a fox is never hunted close up more than once and does`nt read The Sun they just lope along even looking back in disgust at the disturbance.Thank God for your sensible reply to this tripe


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## AdorableAlice (22 September 2013)

hnmisty said:



			This is so laughably ridiculous that by page 4 of this threat I was still chuckling to myself that someone could be so ignorant.

FYI, I am Somerset born and bred. My dad is a DEFRA vet, and we keep sheep. And I don't support hunting. Guess I must have hallucinated having fields outside my bedroom window then, as I clearly actually grew up in a town. My neighbour sits in his field and pot shots rabbits, I support deer culls (and the badger cull, if I dare bring that up), but not hunting with a pack of dogs.
		
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Apologies for offending you. 20 years married to a hunt servant obviously leaves me ignorant.


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## Honey08 (22 September 2013)

And that is why I don't come on this forum, as despite qualifying myself as someone who has hunted, worked with hunters, and grown up on a farm, two replies from the pro-hunters are as un polite as usual!  Utter rubbish, in your opinion.  And how do you know there has never been a fox die of exhaustion?  And if foxes are naturally evolved runners and don't need fittening etc etc, why would we need to fitten the dogs and horses, which are naturally evolved to run too???  There is never any logic in the remarks on here that come in response to those that don't like hunting!!  Anyway, for that reason I usually stay off this page of the forum, so I will leave you experts/obsessive hunters to it. 

ps.  I hunted with the Cottesmore, Belvoir, Grove and Rufford etc while forming my opinion of hunting.  Give me a day out with a good, fast drag hunt any day.


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## GoblinPony (22 September 2013)

Honey08 said:



			And if foxes are naturally evolved runners and don't need fittening etc etc, why would we need to fitten the dogs and horses, which are naturally evolved to run too???  There is never any logic in the remarks on here that come in response to those that don't like hunting!!
		
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Foxes are wild animals, they are free to roam and spend a lot of time on the move. Hounds and horses are kenneled and stabled most of the time and fully depend on humans to provide them with necessary levels of exercise. Isn't that rather obvious? You can't be expected to spend months on your lovely sofa with chocolates and then get up and compete with somebody who's been jogging every morning for years.


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## paddocktractor (23 September 2013)

The fact that foxes were some times  killed is the end of discussion for some and nothing anyone says or does will change that fact for anti hunt side .
  The feeling is so strong on both sides .
The thing I cant understand snaring ,gassing  and flushing to gun or bird of prey or been shot by rifle lamping is any kinder way to go think about all them legal methods .
  some people will say they are all wrong so none are right but most are saying some control mainly been shot is ok.
 vixen gassed in her earth   with young cubs struggling to breath trying to dig way out but no chance.
 some people can get enjoyment from hunting and some feel this is so wrong to get enjoy from the death of a animal?
  Rats and mice are the fair game?


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## cptrayes (23 September 2013)

Can one of you hunting folk answer an important question for me that I've not considered before?

Old reports in horse and hound would celebrate particularly long runs. If we imagined for a moment a run of ,say, four miles. For how much of that mileage, typically, would the Fox have been actively running away from hounds, and how much would be simply the scent it left earlier while going about its normal business?


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## JanetGeorge (23 September 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Old reports in horse and hound would celebrate particularly long runs. If we imagined for a moment a run of ,say, four miles. For how much of that mileage, typically, would the Fox have been actively running away from hounds, and how much would be simply the scent it left earlier while going about its normal business?
		
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lol, you forgot the other question - how many times did hounds change scent (fox) on the run.  I would say that - at most - around 1/4 of a mile would be an active chase - where fox was going like stink.  At the end of that distance he will either have been caught and killed - or he'll have put 'safe distance' between himself and hounds.  When I started hunting with my local hunt - and a few times since - it was on YOUNG horses who I didn't want charging along with the field.  We stood on hillsides and watched the action!  I saw hunted foxes cross into a creek, go 100 yards down the creek - and come out on the same side.  Hounds of course lost him.  I also saw foxes go into the middle of a flock of sheep and sit down!  Again, scent was lost.  Sometimes hounds picked up another scent and went off in an opposite direction with hardly a pause.  I would say foxes COULDN'T run a non-stop 4 miles - and hounds would be very pushed to do it without at least a couple of pauses.  Pauses happen when hounds lose the scent and have to get their noses down again and find it - hounds can't run flat out with their noses on the ground - and very rarely is scent good enough for them to keep it when they're running like stink!

I should add that I read a couple of write-ups of hunting days I'd been out on - and I wondered where I was!


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## cptrayes (23 September 2013)

Thanks JG, great reply as usual.

I wonder how many anti hunting people would change their minds if asked to compare shooting, with its risks, with a chase of four hundred metres and certain death or escape?


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## Judgemental (23 September 2013)

For one moment reading all of the above posts, especially cptrayes', I thought that there had been an overnight repeal of the Hunting Act 2004.


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## cptrayes (23 September 2013)

Judgemental said:



			For one moment reading all of the above posts, especially cptrayes', I thought that there had been an overnight repeal of the Hunting Act 2004.
		
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We've had this discussion before Judgemental, and you requested me to PM you with details of the hunts I know of which hunt fox and I did so.   You must be the last person in the country who is pro hunting not to know that Hunting Act or no Hunting Act, there are hunts actively hunting fox


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## JanetGeorge (23 September 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Thanks JG, great reply as usual.

I wonder how many anti hunting people would change their minds if asked to compare shooting, with its risks, with a chase of four hundred metres and certain death or escape?
		
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Not many!  Even if you persuade antis that hunting is a relatively humane way of reducing numbers, AND they accept that numbers must be reduced, there is still the fact that hunt supporters ENJOY following hounds!

The FACT is that very few hunt supporters hunt because they want foxes killed!  Some will make sure they're nowhere near when it happens (and they're unlikely to be in most situations!)  The farmers, of course, like to see foxes killed on their farm or neighbouring farms!  And the hunt staff like to see it - both for hounds' sake and the safety of their own jobs!

Of course shooting - when done by people with a good eye AND the right firearm - is THE best way of controlling numbers if that's the only aim.  But of course in the UK, shooting foxes can be difficult - partly because the police won't hand out licences for more powerful rifles too easily -and partly because most of the country has risks of what a stray bullet will find!  If you're GOOD you can kill a hell of a lot when circumstances are right - in Oz, I once shot (and killed) 50 foxes in one night! (Beat the 2 blokes who were also shooting!)  But the terrain, the build-up of the area and the power of the firearms used made it a TOTALLY different ball-game!


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## marianne1981 (23 September 2013)

Thanks Janet George and CPtrayes, you are some of the few people on here who do talk sense and can talk reasonably without fighting lol! Hunting fascinates me in one way as it is such an emotive subject, it brings out the best or worst in people. But since a little girl I have hated it very much. I can see what you are saying with the "short" chase thing but how do you ever really know, some foxes must have to endure much longer. If they do escape hounds and go to ground, I do think they should be given the sporting chance, especially if they have evaded the hounds for some time.


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## cptrayes (23 September 2013)

JanetGeorge said:



			Not many!  Even if you persuade antis that hunting is a relatively humane way of reducing numbers, AND they accept that numbers must be reduced, there is still the fact that hunt supporters ENJOY following hounds!

The FACT is that very few hunt supporters hunt because they want foxes killed!  Some will make sure they're nowhere near when it happens (and they're unlikely to be in most situations!)  The farmers, of course, like to see foxes killed on their farm or neighbouring farms!  And the hunt staff like to see it - both for hounds' sake and the safety of their own jobs!

Of course shooting - when done by people with a good eye AND the right firearm - is THE best way of controlling numbers if that's the only aim.  But of course in the UK, shooting foxes can be difficult - partly because the police won't hand out licences for more powerful rifles too easily -and partly because most of the country has risks of what a stray bullet will find!  If you're GOOD you can kill a hell of a lot when circumstances are right - in Oz, I once shot (and killed) 50 foxes in one night! (Beat the 2 blokes who were also shooting!)  But the terrain, the build-up of the area and the power of the firearms used made it a TOTALLY different ball-game!
		
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I am with you on all of this. I can identify with the satisfaction of ridding the area of vermin with skill, whether by shooting or hunting. I still won't hunt with hounds, myself, but thanks mostly to you JG, I really do understand both sides. And the worst of it is that just like the Open Access laws that nearly allowed people to walk their dogs on my water supply, the Act itself was a gross misuse of political favour-grabbing.


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## memenom (29 September 2013)

AdorableAlice said:



			Here we go, the town folk versus the countryside folk.
		
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genius


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## partypremier (2 October 2013)

I have not read all the pages, as I could see just dipping in that it has turned into a hunting debate.
To those that have been cubbing for years (pre ban) it will always be cubbing & yes it was a bit of a slaughter of cubs, but it had its purpose.
Foxes are vermin, very beautiful to look at, but vermin none the less.
Cubbing would encourage the cubs to disperse from that area (or be killed).

Rats are vermin too, so how many of you countryside folk who oppose hunting on a cruelty basis do not put down traps or poison down for not so beautiful ratty?
I look forward to the urban fox taking over the townsfolks gardens, stinking the place out & killing all the pet chickens.
Maybe then people will see what a service the hunt can provide.

I await your abuse.


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## FairyLights (2 October 2013)

No abuse from me PP, I had a great day cubbing yesterday


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## marianne1981 (2 October 2013)

Well well done Partypremier for at last putting it exactly as it is, few pro's would. If I had a rat problem I certainly would not use poison, I fortunately have never had a problem but if I did I would choose a method with the least suffering involved, no matter what animal. Would you put a ring of people round a wood and send hounds in if it were foals/young horses? Why do you have different rules for different animals in that case? What I am trying to say is, surely even the most hardened of hunters, or people in for the equestrian side of hunting alike would find cubbing quite brutal if you really think about it. There are better ways than that.


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## Copperpot (4 October 2013)

If I had a rat problem I would use a terrier. The rat would be caught and killed pretty quickly. Don't see the difference in a hound and a fox. Size and strength difference etc. Horses would be slightly different due to their sheer size so not really a good comparison.  But as rats don't look cute and people think they spread disease no one really cares how they are killed. I would no more like to see a rat have a slow and painful death than I would a fox or any animal for that matter.


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## Judgemental (11 October 2013)

cptrayes said:



			We've had this discussion before Judgemental, and you requested me to PM you with details of the hunts I know of which hunt fox and I did so.   You must be the last person in the country who is pro hunting not to know that Hunting Act or no Hunting Act, there are hunts actively hunting fox 

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You cannot be serious. Never, I cannot believe anybody would possibly think of breaking the law in respect of the 2004 Hunting Act let along actually doing it.

Might I suggest cptrayes a short spell at the Priory might help you?


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## marianne1981 (11 October 2013)

How rude!! Of course they are still breaking the law, with regular prosecutions to prove it, and I'm sure you know it, so I assume you are just being sarcastic.


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