# Addington High Profile report...



## Prince33Sp4rkle (18 January 2014)

Sooo... Addington High Profile... We went with high hopes of a nice easy clear round and if I'm looking very hard for the silver lining the changes were clean and he didn't drop me in the piris...

Beautiful boy, ready to go at 7.45am. Having been rudely awoken at 3am:







Wouldn't make an eventer, ever! Did NOT want to put a toe through this:







Sadly tension got to him, in his usual dramatic way! He tried very very hard for me in the warm up and actually didn't put a foot wrong (in hindsight I perhaps should have let him have a leap and a buck but it's hard to do without getting in people's way). He didn't really settle in the mouth and I never really got him through. He was just too buzzy and too het up  I could have done with another half hour but he's been so good recently I didn't expect him to be quite so sharp. Hoo hum, hello again hindsight!

He just about contained it in the ring, broke in the ext trot (well not so much broke as shot off with his head between his knees like an out of control thelwell pony!). Jiggled through the walk and flung himself round the walk piris. By then I had already decided to put my hand up. Squeaked up into canter and was just impossibly tight, legs going mad but not covering any ground at all, managed the canter HP left and then couldn't hold it any longer  







Whoopsie captured on video:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=798213160205605

Did manage to nurse him round the rest of it, wasn't amazing or particularly accurate but we got round. The extended canter was a mix of 1's, 2's and bucks lol!!!!

In a weird way I'm not madly disappointed, he's always going to be prone to this, he just needs to keep doing bigger shows to get more blasé. Anything up to Area Festival busy/buzzy is ok now normally, I've just got to go through the pain barrier of bigger and buzzier!!!

I also changed his curb just after Xmas and whilst he's be lovely at home, I think he DID back off a bit today which would be enough to upset his equilibrium. Back to the old bit ASAP. That will teach me to meddle!

Perhaps I just need to double up on Velcro and kick him on through the warm up tension? It's a hard call to make.

Had planned our first inter 1 in feb and tbh still intend to go as it will be quieter and less buzzy. However before that we are going for a confidence building romp round another PSG  I will not change my tack but I will re Velcro my pants! Of course if the wheels fall off a re-think will be in order but I'm hoping this was just 'one of those things'. He certainly wasn't the only one finding it too exciting and the atmosphere was 'heavy', if you know what I mean?

Still love you daft pea head shark face horse 

Until next time Addington, and your sheep with 'killer' eyes (as NMT says!):






Off to catch up on some sleep!!!


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## BeckyC (18 January 2014)

Well sat is the first thing that comes to mind!!!! he is a very lucky pony that you are so accepting of him! With my mental tb what seems to work best if hes in a tizz is just cantering round and round for 10/15mins to take the edge off of him, maybe that would help? goodluck for the inter 1!!


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## dieseldog (18 January 2014)

Wow - he can go a long way on 2 legs.  I like that you are so open about your shows, lots of other people would never mention this blip.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (18 January 2014)

BeckyC said:



			Well sat is the first thing that comes to mind!!!! he is a very lucky pony that you are so accepting of him! With my mental tb what seems to work best if hes in a tizz is just cantering round and round for 10/15mins to take the edge off of him, maybe that would help? goodluck for the inter 1!!
		
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I do always canter first, lots of long and low and moving him laterally but I did say to NMT maybe when he next feels ready to explode I go and find a quiet outdoor arena, no matter how wet or crappy, and just let him have at it until he chills himself out? It's so hard to do with other people around.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (18 January 2014)

dieseldog said:



			Wow - he can go a long way on 2 legs.  I like that you are so open about your shows, lots of other people would never mention this blip.
		
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Thanks, it's really important to me/ NMT to be open and realistic, I can't stand it when people fudge the figures!!!


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## Sheep (18 January 2014)

Well sat. I know damn all about dressage (or any serious competition for that matter, all I do is pop around RC comps) but I love reading your and your sister's reports. Your horses are fabulous!


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## BeckyC (18 January 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			I do always canter first, lots of long and low and moving him laterally but I did say to NMT maybe when he next feels ready to explode I go and find a quiet outdoor arena, no matter how wet or crappy, and just let him have at it until he chills himself out? It's so hard to do with other people around.
		
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sounds like a good plan! it is hard, thats the bonus with eventing, you get a giant field to warm up in so plenty of room to let him canter round like a loon!


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (18 January 2014)

Sheep said:



			Well sat. I know damn all about dressage (or any serious competition for that matter, all I do is pop around RC comps) but I love reading your and your sister's reports. Your horses are fabulous!
		
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Awww thank you, I do love him, little toad!


BeckyC said:



			sounds like a good plan! it is hard, thats the bonus with eventing, you get a giant field to warm up in so plenty of room to let him canter round like a loon!
		
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Will give it a go I think....prob not in a field though, am not that brave!!!


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## Booboos (18 January 2014)

Ah how disappointing for you and very well done for taking it on the chin! You have such amazing patience with him!

What did the judge make of the airs above ground?


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## Apercrumbie (18 January 2014)

Well sat and well done for staying positive.  I'm also sure that those around you are hugely grateful that you try to contain him in the warm up if you're looking for another silver lining  
It does seem that these incidents are becoming rarer from what I can tell from your reports, so credit to you for sticking with him.  There's always a next time


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (18 January 2014)

Yes a lot rarer and I really feel today was pure OMG rather than him being naughty/ behind the leg/nappy or confused....I can deal with OMG just by keeping taking him out I hope 

Booboos no sheets yet as we left hours before it finished but I'm expecting a nice array of 2/3/4 for submission!!!


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## rara007 (18 January 2014)

Onwards and downwards!


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## TarrSteps (18 January 2014)

Ah well, highs and lows.

What about something like the spookbusting work MH has been doing with her lovely young horse?  The fellow they worked with is very popular with some pretty high end people (although the same sort of work is being done by many people, I guess they like the dressage connection) and seems to yield good results with tense horses.


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## DonkeyClub (18 January 2014)

What a naughty boy ! Do you think he was having a tantrum about having to get out of bed so early/ would the early start have made him cross as it was out of his routine? He is peculiar!! Very well sat!


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## Nicnac (18 January 2014)

Another silver lining - you stayed on and he didn't fall over.

Haven't seen him do that for a while.  No advice here - you know him far better than any of us. (well...you could take him hunting to get over that fear of mud :devilish


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## Goldenstar (18 January 2014)

Horses are a roller coaster of ups and  downs the downs help you enjoy the ups more .
Onwards and upwards .


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## Holidays_are_coming (18 January 2014)

Wow well sat, I think I may have pooed myself at that!! Hopefully you will get the calm chilled CS next time!


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## lurcherlu (18 January 2014)

Thank god he belongs to you .... A patient non violent owner , well done


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## angelish (18 January 2014)

he certainly spends a long time in the air  
he looks so glam too , i hope he settles better next time good luck


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (18 January 2014)

TarrSteps said:



			Ah well, highs and lows.

What about something like the spookbusting work MH has been doing with her lovely young horse?  The fellow they worked with is very popular with some pretty high end people (although the same sort of work is being done by many people, I guess they like the dressage connection) and seems to yield good results with tense horses.
		
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Definately worth looking at, he isn't spooky per se, flags banners etc don't get eyeballed and he never does the holyhell spin round, he just crosses his eyebrows at things. However I'm going to look in to this more deeply to see what we can do to make big shows pfffft boring!



DonkeyClub said:



			What a naughty boy ! Do you think he was having a tantrum about having to get out of bed so early/ would the early start have made him cross as it was out of his routine? He is peculiar!! Very well sat!
		
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It's possible, he's a very finicky horse. I do think I've peed him off messing with his bits, slapped wrist for me 



Nicnac said:



			Another silver lining - you stayed on and he didn't fall over.

Haven't seen him do that for a while.  No advice here - you know him far better than any of us. (well...you could take him hunting to get over that fear of mud :devilish

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Now that scares me lol!!!



lurcherlu said:



			Thank god he belongs to you .... A patient non violent owner , well done
		
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Thanks, I really believe in him, he's super cool when he's on side and I 100% think he will get to GP....he's worth all this.


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## stencilface (18 January 2014)

Can't see the video but that rear on the pics is impressive!

Do you think perhaps you were at all edgier? I don't know how often you've competed at this level, but sometimes lack of sleep (if you were up at 3am!) plus a bit of nerves/tiredness related weakness can have an effect. And as he's such a sensitive soul and so in tune with you maybe he picked something up? 

Or maybe he fears the killer eyed sheep


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (18 January 2014)

It's possible. I'm generally so laid back I'm half dead but this is my first season at high profile/ premier league- maybe we both just need more mileage?


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## NinjaPony (18 January 2014)

Bloody hell that is quite a rear....Well sat! Does he do that at home too out of interest?


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (18 January 2014)

Rarely with such gusto now, but he used to. He's been seen by vet and physio, mctimoney, thermally imaged, lameness work up etc and nothing  has found a thing.

He has done it since he was backed at 2yo and did it frequently in race training.

It's his go to manoeuvre!


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## Mince Pie (18 January 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			Onwards and upwards .
		
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Or not as the case may be! :biggrin3:

Little sod! Well sat and lol to Nic's commentary!


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## only_me (18 January 2014)

Wow! quite and impressive rear! I wonder if cracking an egg on his poll would work, might discourage it? Difficult to do though and stay on 

He hasn't done it for a while (I think?) so could just be a combo of leaving that early and too much work in the early morning for him? I know you said that he prefers to be warm so could be it took longer that morning, what if you warmed him up in his exercise sheet? just thinking out loud really, much better than learning about thermoregulation and sympathetic nerves...


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## missprimitive (18 January 2014)

That horse landed on his feet the day he found you. Your dignity on days like today is inspiring. He'll find his brave pants for you I'm sure!!


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## nikkimariet (18 January 2014)

Broke_But_Happy said:



			Little sod! Well sat and lol to Nic's commentary!
		
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My pleasure  (forgot about the sound!!!)


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (18 January 2014)

Thank you  I guess we owe each other, and I do feel like he's trying very hard to be good these days, just can't always manage it!

He does always have a quarter sheet on for the first 20mins so sadly don't think that's it, he also travels well bundled up and isn't ever allowed to get cold.


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## only_me (18 January 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			He does always have a quarter sheet on for the first 20mins so sadly don't think that's it, he also travels well bundled up and isn't ever allowed to get cold.
		
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Ah well that's my theory out of the bucket  If he wasn't with you I doubt anyone else would have perservered, he looks fantastic and when he keeps all 4 feet on the ground he goes fantastically  
One day, I shall come over and admire how clean you stay from lorry to warm up to arena


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## dominobrown (18 January 2014)

Errr... Well sat! He doesn't half stay in the air a while.

As for rearing it is the 'go to' reaction for some horses. I once had a pony to break in and it would rear at everything. If he was out in the field with another horse arguing he would rear, the first night he came to me (and first night in a stable) he stood and reared in the stable, and he did a few times ridden too. However when he was truly happy and comfortable in his work and learnt his job a bit more he didn't do it. It was just his reaction to something he didn't like!

The problem with sensitive horses is that it can go either way, both for and against you.


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## nikkimariet (18 January 2014)

only_me said:



			One day, I shall come over and admire how clean you stay from lorry to warm up to arena 

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Slave with a towel!!!!


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## ester (18 January 2014)

lurcherlu said:



			Thank god he belongs to you .... A patient non violent owner , well done
		
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I thought that post was going to say: Thank god he belongs to you ...... and not me!


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## Sneedy (18 January 2014)

Such a shame :-(.......glad to see you still have excellent limpet stickability though.......that would scare me stupid!!!


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## Cortez (18 January 2014)

Nice Courbette-ish-ness.......


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (18 January 2014)

ester said:



			I thought that post was going to say: Thank god he belongs to you ...... and not me!  

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Ha ha ha!!!!


Sneedy said:



			Such a shame :-(.......glad to see you still have excellent limpet stickability though.......that would scare me stupid!!!
		
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I still haz the skillzzzzzz!



Cortez said:



			Nice Courbette-ish-ness.......
		
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Don't encourage him!!!!


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## little_flea (18 January 2014)

Really well put. The Sparkle sisters are an inspiration (and having met them at shows a number if times, really, really lovely people). Hell, I am proud of CS achievements, he probably just got a bit overcooked with the atmosphere this day. (Also, going indoors this time of the year can confuse)


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (18 January 2014)

Thank you little flea


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## Darremi (18 January 2014)

I don't do pure dressage so I may be totally out the ballpark here and do correct me if this sounds crazy,
but do you ever train/compete him in a snaffle?

I believe the rules changed a few years ago to allow snaffles up to GP so long as non FEI?

My old TB eventer used to go bananas in the dressage like your horse and explode into rearing. She had a very small mouth and was always very unhappy/fussy in the contact. She tolerated a snaffle up to a point but the hackamore was bliss for her!

Just a thought. Otherwise extremely well sat! Rearing is unpleasant thing.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (18 January 2014)

He prefers the double  it's never used to force an outline/ frame. He perversely prefers the bulk of the two bits and is more forward in it- tends to suck back off a snaffle.

He's a bit of an oddball in many respects!


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## Firewell (18 January 2014)

Oh well, we all have one of those days every now and again! He's still amazing .


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## EmmaB (18 January 2014)

Jesus that's high! Unbelievably well sat, amazed how calm you can stay! I would have weed myself...no saving the white jods then, towel or no towel haha!

Well done though, really hope the next test goes better, you deserve it


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## Vodkagirly (19 January 2014)

Another well sat. Are you sure he doesn't want to go jumping, he can get his front feet high enough.


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## amage (19 January 2014)

Yikes well sat first of all! What a monster when he has been going so well. I know you queried it before as a suggestion for next year I think but something like the sunshine tour would probably be the making of him as you'd have several days in the atmosphere. Given the lack of multi day shows for dressage why not book him a stable for something like the addingtin high profile sj show and just keep riding him through it. SJ warms usually a lot buzzier and more forgiving of explosions and maybe if he could do his boil over and be a road without actually having to go in the ring it might help you work out a way to get it out if his system at a show! Even if you wanted to get into the ring to continue the learning I'm sure a show organiser would let you work around course builders as they change tracks between classes?! Just an idea but may help


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## Whiff&Tico (19 January 2014)

As others have said, I find your posts inspiring and admire your approach to training and horse care. I'm sure you will move past this blip.


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## Bryndu (19 January 2014)

Hi,
I don't know you or the pony...and havn't followed your posts....but just have to say complete respect to you with your attitude to your pony.

Don't know if this may help .....as I say...I have no idea of you or pony's history....

I had a TB very similar in outlook to what happened to you at your show.....and I found out...purely by chance that he used to get his tongue pinched (not trapped) between the bits of the double...which then resulted in the same effect you have. I solved this by buying him a sliding cheek weymouth.... which he could move around and therefore not get his tongue pinched.
Just thought I would pass this on.
Best of luck
Bryndu


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (19 January 2014)

amage said:



			Yikes well sat first of all! What a monster when he has been going so well. I know you queried it before as a suggestion for next year I think but something like the sunshine tour would probably be the making of him as you'd have several days in the atmosphere. Given the lack of multi day shows for dressage why not book him a stable for something like the addingtin high profile sj show and just keep riding him through it. SJ warms usually a lot buzzier and more forgiving of explosions and maybe if he could do his boil over and be a road without actually having to go in the ring it might help you work out a way to get it out if his system at a show! Even if you wanted to get into the ring to continue the learning I'm sure a show organiser would let you work around course builders as they change tracks between classes?! Just an idea but may help
		
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I think you are right, the more, multi day shows he does the better be will get- the winter champs last year improved his attitude HUGELY and I really felt were valuable as training as much as a competition. It wouldn't  have worked for addington( as they didn't have any stables left) but probably for at least some of the premier leagues I need to go down the day before, and the try and do two classes so he has time to acclimatise and also time to soak it up and improve day by day.



Bryndu said:



			Hi,
I don't know you or the pony...and havn't followed your posts....but just have to say complete respect to you with your attitude to your pony.

Don't know if this may help .....as I say...I have no idea of you or pony's history....

I had a TB very similar in outlook to what happened to you at your show.....and I found out...purely by chance that he used to get his tongue pinched (not trapped) between the bits of the double...which then resulted in the same effect you have. I solved this by buying him a sliding cheek weymouth.... which he could move around and therefore not get his tongue pinched.
Just thought I would pass this on.
Best of luck
Bryndu
		
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Definately going back to his old curb bit but he has done this since a 2yo ( backed for racing) so unlikely to be the whole problem but thanks


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## Festive_Felicitations (19 January 2014)

Oh dear! :-/ Well done on sitting that rear and getting through the rest of the test (sort of) hopefully it will have been 'good' experience for him. 

I hope the next few shows go more smoothly!


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## Fuzzypuff (20 January 2014)

Ouch, he goes so high! At least he is well balanced enough not to fall over...!

Don't beat yourself up too much because of the bit, it might have been more the early start? If you think about it, he didn't know he should go to bed early because he'd be up at 3, and although he is used to travelling it does still take some out of them. Maybe worth trying the bit again at other shows as it might not have been that at all? He could have been backing off due to being tired/grumpy/overwhelmed and not the bit itself? In preference I'd go the day before but it's a pain if they don't have any stables  Maybe in future it might be worth getting stabling nearby to at least give you a slightly later start?

Re letting him have a blow up, would that really help him? I know for mine it would make him worse, but I think they are quite different. Didn't you used to ride him twice on a show day or am I making that up? It wouldn't have helped in this situation though unless you had a stable 

How about county shows for atmosphere-proofing?


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (20 January 2014)

i did wonder to NMT that riding him for 20mins or so then putting him away and then warming up properly like we do with fig may have helped, but impossible in this particular situation.

for somerford PL and Hartpury CDI/PL we will be there day before anyway so its only keysoe and addington that i need to decide what to do re going day before-if possible, i will i think.

he's going to solihull on thur, as thats indoor warm up linked to indoor school so as similar to adders as i can get. if he lopes round the PSG ok (in old bit) he will go to do the inter 1 in feb as planned.

do you ever sometimes do a bit of an uncontrollable shiver? i sometimes feel thats how it is with him, he tries to hold on to it, but he just cant. once hes gone absolutely apoplectic once, he generally isnt so bad afterwards so perhaps i need to kick on and let him have at it in the warm up.

i can't take him anywhere on grass as it makes him a million times worse and i do worry he might slip over accidentally, at least on a solid artificial surface its down to him to hold his balance, on grass he could hit a wet bit or a rough clumpy bit and go over without meaning to.....


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## Four Seasons (20 January 2014)

Oh my gosh, he goes just as high as my mare! And does the whole "Spirit, Stallion of the Cimarron" thing with his front legs too. Has he ever flipped all the way over?

Anyway, you've come so far with him, and his difficult character... Must be so satisfying when it all comes together!


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (20 January 2014)

no, thank god! I wouldnt say it doesnt phase me, but im used to it and am fairly confident of knowing the point at which i can turn his neck and get him down on the ground again.

it is....and im also not too fed up with him/this, because he tried so so hard in the warm up and pehaps i should have tweaked a few things(or not!bit!) to make it just that bit easier for him.

onwards to thur-will report back


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## nikkimariet (20 January 2014)

Fuzzypuff said:



			Didn't you used to ride him twice on a show day or am I making that up?
		
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Was me and Fig


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## HufflyPuffly (20 January 2014)

Not posted before as had nothing else to add to the 'well sat' comments, but just want to say how lovely it is how you roll with the punches so to speak, I know he is massively talented but not many would persevere with him like you have.

Fingers crossed for Thursday, I hope you get him back on side.

x x


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## montanna (20 January 2014)

cor he's not messing about is he! he doesn't give you much warning so kudos for staying put!!
your attitude is remarkable, you should be proud of yourself for seeing the good, when so many would just see the bad... we all have days like it, and it's really refreshing you put it all out there.
well done


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (21 January 2014)

thank you  i do think its very important to be honest about the journey-so many amateurs dont have purpose bred, pro trained horses and its important to be clear that we all have days or even weeks when we struggle and it seems 1 step forward 2 back etc. covering it up doesnt help anyone!

rode last night (in original bit) and he was very very good. so another schooling session tomorrow, a canter on wed then solihull show on thur. fingers crossed he is back to his normal, only moderately quirky self lol!!!!!


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## Lolo (21 January 2014)

Well done, and the fact you do blog warts and all with such honesty is really nice. It's comforting to know that it's not just us who have days where the wheels fall off! Glad CS is back to 'normal' and I hope Solihull goes well!


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## j1ffy (21 January 2014)

As others have said, it's great to read the downs as well as ups - it's great to see the overall improving trend though and you have both done great work with Pea and Fig.  Good luck for the next comp!


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## leflynn (21 January 2014)

Your reports give me a great deal of hope in my small world in intro DR and tiny jumping with my stubborn ex racer.  I am also AMAZED at how clean you manage to stay as to us it's is almost impossible *oops*, I also can't blame poor pea for not wanting to get his little toes dirty in the mud either.
Credit to you both for warts and all reports and sticking in there way past what many others would do!
Shall cross everything for a return to less explosive ways on thurs   (Always impressed as your stickability too and his tantrums!)


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## nikkimariet (21 January 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Now, call me slow, but I have only just realised that you are the Fran Turner (no button pushing please, this is public information from the BD dressage site)
		
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I have reported you cptrayes. You are not at liberty to reveal someone's identity; however much you like to think you are exempt from the rules.

I believe you reported me for calling you by your first name last year even though that is public information on several sites


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (21 January 2014)

cptrayes said:



			I admire completely what you have achieved with this horse. And I also think it is good for everyone who trains horses that you have posted this before you had good news to balance it with.

Here comes the but.

Now, call me slow, but I have only just realised that you are the Fran Turner (no button pushing please, this is public information from the BD dressage site) who posted on my blog  telling me at considerable length how I had ruined every horse I had ever owned and that I was currently ruining the rehab of my horse that has recently been operated on for kissing spines.

You may like to know that since I got to the bottom of what is troubling his stomach, his rehab is going as sweet as a nut 

If you haven't already done so, I would personally have CS x rayed for kissing spines.  There is considerable similarity between the way he explodes under pressure to my own horse, as you can see below The surgeon who operated on him said that be has seen dressage horses where the riders were only aware of something seemingly slight, like the fact the horse was a bit stiff in the piris in one direction.


I am of course fixated on kissing spines right now, so feel free to completely ignore me.






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CPT:

I STILL dont think the way you train your horses helps at all, but to each their own. I AM genuinely interested in the supplementation issues you are going through for the hind gut acidosis and am happy and content to ONLY duscuss those with you in the fture, as on the training of horses we are polar opposites.
I maintain that you need to take a good long look at your methods/ideals and bear in mind that if you always do what you have always done you will always get what you have always got. It will be interesting to see how Ace progresses now that you feel any potential KS issues are soon to be ticked off the list.

The way you allow your horses to chose their own destiny shall we say, in each schooling session, does not sit well with me and would not work for CS.

But lets leave that now (and note I have only clarified as you have bought it up in an un-related trhead, I would not have mentioned it otherwise so again, no button pushing)

As far as KS goes, the horse saw a vet for a KS work up when i first had him and has seen the vet again at least twice since (for seperate check ups but i always get them a once over at same time) and shows NO clinical symptoms.
He has been thermally imaged and shows no hot spots.
he shows no pain upon palpitation.
He has no SI, hock or front leg soreness. No bilateral un-levelness, no muscle wastage, no one sidedness..... NOTHING normally associated with horses working with back pain.

Gived he shows zero indication of KS and that many vets and many people (myself incl) think that an awful lot of horses (working happily) would show "KS" on x ray -how do i determine if the horse has a KS type issue? Have him operated on anyway, in the total absence of symptoms?

I also dont think they horse could have got from basically un-backed, to schooling GP with KS without such severe worsening of the problem that he would show at least SOME symptoms-do you?
Do you think you could have produced Ace to schooling GP without the op? Can you imagine that ever happening? I cannot, and thus myself, vet, trainer, chiro all feel the horse has no pain issues (he has also had a lameness work up incl nerve blocks).

So thank you for your concern but i think we can tick that one off the list.


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## cptrayes (21 January 2014)

Your sister's horses name is on your blog, published at the bottom of the page every time she posts. BE records for that horse are publicly available on the BD website. She commented on my publicly available blog under her full name when she had no need to do so, so clearly she is not precious about her identity.

She had already fully identified herself, what I have done is no news to anyone who has the tiniest spark of interest to find out.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (21 January 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Your sister's horses name is on your blog, published at the bottom of the page every time she posts. BE records for that horse are publicly available on the BD website. She commented on my publicly available blog under her full name when she had no need to do so, so clearly she is not precious about her identity.

She had already fully identified herself, what I have done is no news to anyone who has the tiniest spark of interest to find out.
		
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but you are still not at liberty to clarify it here, rules are rules regardless  your name is also available on your blog and there are also BD and BE records available to the public. it doesnt take much to put 2 and 2 together but yet i can respect the HHO forum rules and not call you by your full name......hmmm........


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## cptrayes (21 January 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			The way you allow your horses to chose their own destiny shall we say, in each schooling session, does not sit well with me and would not work for CS.
		
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I don't. It was a limited time period in the rehab of a horse in considerable fear of pain. I have explained that too you more than once but you do not wish to hear it.





			So thank you for your concern but i think we can tick that one off the list.
		
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That's good to know. Not having followed your story from the beginning, I was unaware what you had already investigated, so just thought it was worth a mention.


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## cptrayes (21 January 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			but you are still not at liberty to clarify it here, rules are rules regardless  your name is also available on your blog and there are also BD and BE records available to the public. it doesnt take much to put 2 and 2 together but yet i can respect the HHO forum rules and not call you by your full name......hmmm........
		
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Oh get off the high horse . Unlike most people I post under my own name. I have never made any attempt to hide my identity. I do not like people referring to my first name on this forum because I find it can make total strangers believe that I am their friends.


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## TPO (21 January 2014)

Another well sat from another fan of you and NMT's posts. From the beginning I've enjoyed and appreciated the "warts and all" approach even though you've both had to roll with the punches from others. I can't believe what was posted on FB re this episode for example.

Like others have said, Pea/Star is lucky to have found you as not everyone would have had the patience to work with him and help him figure it all out.

Just to be a downer seriously can the bickering stop! CPT I appreciate hugely the advice and help you've given me but please stop going out of your way to constantly nit pick and try to start trouble with the Sparkle Sisters. It does seem entirely one way and you're always the instigator. Fine you don't get on, that's life but this is getting pathetic and it does not reflect well. There are posters who I don't like or respect the opinion of so guess what, I don't read their threads or posts and for the ones that really get under my skin I have them on UI. Might be worth trying that since you can't seem to help yourself.


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## nikkimariet (21 January 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Your sister's horses name is on your blog, published at the bottom of the page every time she posts.
		
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You are incorrect. Neither mine or my sisters FULL NAMES are published on our Diamonds in the Rough Dressage page.


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## nikkimariet (21 January 2014)

TPO said:



			It does seem entirely one way and you're always the instigator. Fine you don't get on, that's life but this is getting pathetic and it does not reflect well.
		
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Quite.


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## Jenni_ (21 January 2014)

*rolls eyes*

As I said on FB, well sat and boo to the Parelli Pipers. I've seen the vid and the clip where he explodes, ok he looks tense, but he is being ridden quietly and sympathetically. He's not sore in his mouth, not being ridden in a barbed wire bit, and as justified by PS, there is signifigant evidence to support that the horse IS NOT in physical pain. He's just a talented horse who has the occasional Plebby Moments.

Aren't all the best horses 'quirky?'

I also admire how you two open yourselves up and write about EVERYTHING. You leave yourself open to criticism either by people who have no clue, or like to think they know better. And when this happens, you are always so diplomatic and gracious about it. 

Good Luck at the Inter 1. Have fingers and toes crossed for a less Plebby Pea!


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## dianchi (21 January 2014)

Well sat, my TB rears like this but on the HorseBall pitch the added height helps with catching at times 
I'm surprised that CPT hasn't told you it's cushings yet but guess she picked KS as today's fav topic.

Anywho all the best top comp horses are quirky, "special" minds make special horses! I would say immerse him as much as possible in buzzy atmospheres and not sure if I've seen a stay away report but does that help at all??


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## HuntingB (21 January 2014)

I can't believe how vertical he goes, I think he knows exactly how high he can get before he has to come back down!
From looking at other pics on the facebook page, I didn't realise the boys don't wear shoes, what nice little feet. Perhaps Pea likes it for extra grip when he's waving his front legs about?


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## ester (21 January 2014)

nikkimariet said:



			You are incorrect. Neither mine or my sisters FULL NAMES are published on our Diamonds in the Rough Dressage page.
		
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she did say horse's name and then a BD search.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (21 January 2014)

but equally, rules are rules and when NMT called her by her full name last year, CPT was most upset and reported it.
Lesson learnt and we have never called her by her proper name again, despite knowing it (as it is not hard to work it out, her name is on her blog and on BD). But now all of a sudden its ok to do it?

it doesnt matter how easy or hard it is to find, the rule is not to use it on here.

regarding stay away shows, yes it helps and will try and stay away at as many of the premier leagues as we can manage


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## ester (21 January 2014)

Oh gosh, no I do agree just being pedantic!


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (21 January 2014)

ester said:



			Oh gosh, no I do agree just being pedantic!
		
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lol ok


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## nikkimariet (21 January 2014)

Deleted because I can't read

Sorry Ester, you're right!


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## nikkimariet (21 January 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			but equally, rules are rules and when NMT called her by her full name last year, CPT was most upset and reported it.
		
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Prepared to be corrected but I thought I only used her first name!


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## Goldenstar (21 January 2014)

Oh I wondered why cptrayes had gone grey now I know ,happy days 
Not every horses who rears or bucks or swishes its tail etc is suffering from a medical condition .
The difficulty is discovering what you have got a horse that 'likes ' a rear or a horse with an issue .
My best horse loved walking on her back legs it was her party piece when ever displeased or excited that was her answer me upset me and I eat caburys caramels .


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## doriangrey (21 January 2014)

I don't know .. I hate to say it because I am as far from a ridden expert as like the earth to the moon as the OP, but that looks like a terrible evasion to me.  Horses will give us _so much_, but eventually it becomes too much.  I do understand that all possible avenues have been explored because OP is very thorough but something doesn't seem right.  It does look like he's reacting to pain as the very high rear and kicking out seems indicative of that - but that is my opinion only.  He looks like a good boy that will put up with a lot, but the question is what is he putting up with?  Is this a 'talented quirky' horse or is it just that his problems have not yet been identified?


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## glamourpuss (21 January 2014)

I take it the people (although one has gone grey now) who think this is a pain 'thing' have seen the previous posts PS (& NMT) have posted? Their horses are managed & cared for to the finest...FINEST detail. They retired Bruce simply because he wasn't 'enjoying' competitions anymore!! I really don't think they would miss a horse in discomfort if I'm honest. I don't *know* these girls personally but I know they are excellent horsewomen & this should be respected. 

Also if I recall correctly this horse used to rear like this out hacking as well but PS has managed to work through this. It's just what he does when he gets stressed (or is being a turd)....he's just bloody lucky he belongs to PS!

PS thank you for sharing what happened. Like others have said it's refreshing to have someone willing to share both the ups & downs of their journey. Having seen how well you have overcome the other challenges CS has thrown your way, I'm sure you'll overcome this one as well x


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (21 January 2014)

So, if all possible avenues have been explored........and bearing in mind he has done the EXACT same thing since he was TWO ( ie rear, spin right, run back and cow kick) and that at home he works through ALL the Grand Prix work softly and easily........would you do?

What would you take away from the above and how would you proceed?

This is something he has always done but its got 500% better over the last 2 years, not worse. He qualified for the regionals at PSG in two shows, basically the minimum possible. Do you really think that he has such a severe physical issue, that somehow makes him react so violently yet never draws a single comment from judges, chiro, trainer, vet etc?

Or is it possible hes a dominant horse ( who has quirky on both sides of his family tree btw) that learnt to ditch people at a young age and has yet to discover the true determination of my Velcro butt?!

It's all to easy to say " oh there must be something wrong" than to accept the less palatable option that some of them ARE born *bad*.

Put this another way, it's this or dog meat, who the eff else would put up with it! I am the last chance saloon and I've poured hundreds if not thousands in to checking, re-checking and tweaking.

Honestly, what would YOU do, given all the above?

As I said to someone else earlier, do you really think its got from 4yo to working GP with a serious physical issue but never taken an un-level step in its life, never had a sore back, never been one sided?

It doesn't add up and I think that is clear to anyone who actually looks at the entire history.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (21 January 2014)

glamourpuss said:



			I take it the people (although one has gone grey now) who think this is a pain 'thing' have seen the previous posts PS (& NMT) have posted? Their horses are managed & cared for to the finest...FINEST detail. They retired Bruce simply because he wasn't 'enjoying' competitions anymore!! I really don't think they would miss a horse in discomfort if I'm honest. I don't *know* these girls personally but I know they are excellent horsewomen & this should be respected. 

Also if I recall correctly this horse used to rear like this out hacking as well but PS has managed to work through this. It's just what he does when he gets stressed (or is being a turd)....he's just bloody lucky he belongs to PS!

PS thank you for sharing what happened. Like others have said it's refreshing to have someone willing to share both the ups & downs of their journey. Having seen how well you have overcome the other challenges CS has thrown your way, I'm sure you'll overcome this one as well x
		
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Thank you  if I had even an inkling he was in pain it would be checked immediately.


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## doriangrey (21 January 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			So, if all possible avenues have been explored........and bearing in mind he has done the EXACT same thing since he was TWO ( ie rear, spin right, run back and cow kick) and that at home he works through ALL the Grand Prix work softly and easily........would you do?

What would you take away from the above and how would you proceed?

This is something he has always done but its got 500% better over the last 2 years, not worse. He qualified for the regionals at PSG in two shows, basically the minimum possible. Do you really think that he has such a severe physical issue, that somehow makes him react so violently yet never draws a single comment from judges, chiro, trainer, vet etc?

Or is it possible hes a dominant horse ( who has quirky on both sides of his family tree btw) that learnt to ditch people at a young age and has yet to discover the true determination of my Velcro butt?!

It's all to easy to say " oh there must be something wrong" than to accept the less palatable option that some of them ARE born *bad*.

Put this another way, it's this or dog meat, who the eff else would put up with it! I am the last chance saloon and I've poured hundreds if not thousands in to checking, re-checking and tweaking.

Honestly, what would YOU do, given all the above?

As I said to someone else earlier, do you really think its got from 4yo to working GP with a serious physical issue but never taken an un-level step in its life, never had a sore back, never been one sided?

It doesn't add up and I think that is clear to anyone who actually looks at the entire history.
		
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Honestly?  I don't know - probably hand him over to Jean luc Cornille?  Why is this good horse objecting so violently?


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## tristar (21 January 2014)

definately go the day before, you  must feel tired and slightly tense after 3.0am start, could this not communicate to the horse as tension, sort of last straw thing?


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## Goldenstar (21 January 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			So, if all possible avenues have been explored........and bearing in mind he has done the EXACT same thing since he was TWO ( ie rear, spin right, run back and cow kick) and that at home he works through ALL the Grand Prix work softly and easily........would you do?

What would you take away from the above and how would you proceed?

This is something he has always done but its got 500% better over the last 2 years, not worse. He qualified for the regionals at PSG in two shows, basically the minimum possible. Do you really think that he has such a severe physical issue, that somehow makes him react so violently yet never draws a single comment from judges, chiro, trainer, vet etc?

Or is it possible hes a dominant horse ( who has quirky on both sides of his family tree btw) that learnt to ditch people at a young age and has yet to discover the true determination of my Velcro butt?!

It's all to easy to say " oh there must be something wrong" than to accept the less palatable option that some of them ARE born *bad*.

Put this another way, it's this or dog meat, who the eff else would put up with it! I am the last chance saloon and I've poured hundreds if not thousands in to checking, re-checking and tweaking.

Honestly, what would YOU do, given all the above?

As I said to someone else earlier, do you really think its got from 4yo to working GP with a serious physical issue but never taken an un-level step in its life, never had a sore back, never been one sided?

It doesn't add up and I think that is clear to anyone who actually looks at the entire history.
		
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I don't think it's likely he has an undiagnosed physical issue .
I think it's likely he has a problem when he feels under mental pressure and upwards is his answer .
Time and more experiance will improve this but I think he will probally be a horse whose answer is up when he feels stuff is a bit much .
My Favorite mare reared till the day she retired it was her thing .


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## nikkimariet (22 January 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			I don't think it's likely he has an undiagnosed physical issue .
I think it's likely he has a problem when he feels under mental pressure and upwards is his answer .
Time and more experiance will improve this but I think he will probally be a horse whose answer is up when he feels stuff is a bit much .
My Favorite mare reared till the day she retired it was her thing .
		
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I'd agree with this. Everyone/thing has a different reaction to stressful situations; Fig goes very spooky and whizzy. Which plays on his natural inclination to be forward going and sharp. 

Funnily enough, just because it's a more acceptable/less dramatic way of showing stress, no one has ever suggested there is anything wrong with Fig


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## charlie76 (22 January 2014)

You said you rode him a different bit? I would say there lies your answer if he hasn't behaved like this for a while in the old bit. When you school and warm up its very rare that the movements are ridden in such quick succession and if it feels like it might be going wrong then in the warm up and schooling we tend to ride out and start again. In a test situation we dont have this luxury! In your video, as he comes down he very obviously has his mouth open and is not happy in the contact, I imagine the particular movement you started caused him to object to the bit and then display this reaction. When you get the contact straight again he shuts his mouth and looks OK again. What bit was it? Mine was in a NS warmblood Weymouth, he found this far to sharp and would get upset in it.
I have been schooling my horse in a double at home, he is good in it 99% of the time, however, last week at dressage at a spooky venue I chose to ride in the snaffle as I know if he spooks and the double catches him slightly wrong it would result in hysterics as he is sensitive. Be interesting to see what he is like in his old bit.


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## dominobrown (22 January 2014)

Didn't Laura B's Alf used to bolt?
I suppose if you were training a horse up to Novice/ Elem level you probably wouldn't see any major disagreements, however to train up to GP is not easy, for horse or rider, and you will hit some roadblocks along the way. It is very for horse to get to the top in any horse sport without some setbacks.


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## Perfect_Pirouette (22 January 2014)

I don't think he's in pain.

A horse that's in pain would surely exhibit this type of behaviour a lot more regularly than at a competition every now and again?! Yes, he could feel under more 'pressure' and be a bit more 'tense' but if this horse is schooling GP at home, then he will be under pressure then too.

At the end of the day the movements and work that he is being asked to do ARE hard, if he can get out of it (like any horse) he will. Some horses will protest more violently than others and I suspect this is just natural, learned behaviour for this horse and probably always will be.

If he was doing this day in, day out every time something was asked of him then yes, I'm sure we'd all be thinking pain.

Anyway, good luck for your next comp OP.


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## TarrSteps (22 January 2014)

Jenni_ said:



			*rolls eyes*

Aren't all the best horses 'quirky?'
		
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As a point, no.  And, even more relevant, every horse that's "quirky" isn't good. 

I pick this out because I am tired of people with badly behaving horses telling me this and using it as an excuse not to get to the bottom of the situation.

HOWEVER I don't think this is necessary relevant in this case. PS has made great strides with the horse and seems to have a decent support system around her. It's not unusual for even very skilled dressage horses to need some "training" other than in the actual movements - staying over at shows and going in the ring repeatedly (this is hard to do here but is standard practice where there are more multiday shows and makes a world of difference to many horses) or the "tension training" mentioned in the other thread. It's a fine line sometimes between admiring someone for persevering and wondering why they don't make a change.

PS seems to be on it (literally and metaphorically) and, frankly  she's the only one who has to care.


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## TarrSteps (22 January 2014)

dominobrown said:



			Didn't Laura B's Alf used to bolt?
I suppose if you were training a horse up to Novice/ Elem level you probably wouldn't see any major disagreements, however to train up to GP is not easy, for horse or rider, and you will hit some roadblocks along the way. It is very for horse to get to the top in any horse sport without some setbacks.
		
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As did Salinero. He broke Anky quite spectacularly in his early days, after having already been passed back to them by another very successful dressage rider. In fact upper level dressage riders get hurt a fair bit when the "brilliance" gets out of hand! Anyone who has ridden a horse with that potential knows how truly scary it can be to push the envelope!


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## KPM (22 January 2014)

PS - As the owner of another quirky horse, with quirky both sides of his heritage, i'm with you.  This one *did* have a naff start...but if CS is good at home, good 95% of the time at shows and shows no other symptoms of a physical problem (which im with you, he doesn't appear to), then i would agree it is probably is a mental thing. 

To me, not EVERY problem is physical...the mind (and mindset) has to be considered too.  And this is the biggest fight IMO.


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## nikkimariet (22 January 2014)

TarrSteps said:



			every horse that's "quirky" isn't good. 

I pick this out because I am tired of people with badly behaving horses telling me this and using it as an excuse not to get to the bottom of the situation.

It's not unusual for even very skilled dressage horses to need some "training" other than in the actual movements - staying over at shows and going in the ring repeatedly
		
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Agree with all of this 

We feel like ring experience is really going to be a major part of both the boys training, and for us too! CS is not spooky but tense in other ways. Fig isn't spooky (he can be in the warm up, but generally not in the ring) as such but holds tension through his body in a more typical way (rushing, tight etc). Practice practice practice is the key in so many ways.


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## cundlegreen (22 January 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			Oh I wondered why cptrayes had gone grey now I know ,happy days 
Not every horses who rears or bucks or swishes its tail etc is suffering from a medical condition .
The difficulty is discovering what you have got a horse that 'likes ' a rear or a horse with an issue .
My best horse loved walking on her back legs it was her party piece when ever displeased or excited that was her answer me upset me and I eat caburys caramels .
		
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I've had two here, one a hackney, the other a TB, who, when feeling very well, walked around on their hind legs in the field like circus horses. great balance from both, and the hackney actually did it when driven, and pivoted neatly round when startled by something.
On a serious note, I would recommend trying an Arc equine unit. I have found for box rest and even de sensitising, it has worked wonders. Francis Whittington uses it on Sir Percival who used to completely boil over in the dressage phase. If you get stuck in finding one to try, you could have mine for a short period on trial to see if it helps. I'd be surprised if it didn't.


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## RunToEarth (22 January 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			Not every horses who rears or bucks or swishes its tail etc is suffering from a medical condition .
The difficulty is discovering what you have got a horse that 'likes ' a rear or a horse with an issue .
		
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I really agree with this. I understand the importance on exploring options when horses start to rear, but the bottom line is that not all behavioural issues can be written down to a medical issue. 

PS - my last horse used to launch off all fours out hunting sporadically, in the end we just had to write it down to *****s and giggles because there were no pain related symptoms found anywhere. I got pretty handy at identifying when he was going to do it, and when he was feeling "that way out" and a good few times I just put him back on the lorry and took him home for an easy life. It's annoying for you as he seems to be going so sweetly for you lately but I would say if he does that one trip out of 10 and you're confident it isn't pain related, you've just got yourself a pretty funny horse!


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (22 January 2014)

cundlegreen said:



			I've had two here, one a hackney, the other a TB, who, when feeling very well, walked around on their hind legs in the field like circus horses. great balance from both, and the hackney actually did it when driven, and pivoted neatly round when startled by something.
On a serious note, I would recommend trying an Arc equine unit. I have found for box rest and even de sensitising, it has worked wonders. Francis Whittington uses it on Sir Percival who used to completely boil over in the dressage phase. If you get stuck in finding one to try, you could have mine for a short period on trial to see if it helps. I'd be surprised if it didn't.
		
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thank you, lovely offer  can you expand on how/when you use it-morning of show or for a few days leading up to it or every day?


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## TarrSteps (22 January 2014)

nikkimariet said:



			Agree with all of this 

We feel like ring experience is really going to be a major part of both the boys training, and for us too! CS is not spooky but tense in other ways. Fig isn't spooky (he can be in the warm up, but generally not in the ring) as such but holds tension through his body in a more typical way (rushing, tight etc). Practice practice practice is the key in so many ways.
		
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I had a horse to school who had pathological competition anxiety - he used to get to the in gate (if you were lucky) and then flip himself over backwards. If he did manage to make it into the ring he would suddenly freeze while moving - an alarming feeling!

He had real reasons for his problems, mostly tied to having won a 4 year old class, the poor ******, and we did a lot at home to help him but eventually he had to go to the shows. We picked a 3 day one and entered every test he was eligible for, worked out a system to get him into the ring in a relatively calm state (first test took 45 min) and I resigned myself to not much caring what happened at that point. Some of the judges were a bit unpleasant but that didn't kill me. By the end of the last day he was unrecognisable from the first test. It was hard work but it was the making of him.

Re rearing, there was a popular stallion in my area who threw pretty, talented dressage horses. And every last one stood up as a first resort. Fresh, annoyed, confused - it was their go to. Rearing is just an expression, it's the 'why' that matters.


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## Jenni_ (22 January 2014)

TarrSteps said:



			As a point, no.  And, even more relevant, every horse that's "quirky" isn't good. 

I pick this out because I am tired of people with badly behaving horses telling me this and using it as an excuse not to get to the bottom of the situation.

HOWEVER I don't think this is necessary relevant in this case. PS has made great strides with the horse and seems to have a decent support system around her. It's not unusual for even very skilled dressage horses to need some "training" other than in the actual movements - staying over at shows and going in the ring repeatedly (this is hard to do here but is standard practice where there are more multiday shows and makes a world of difference to many horses) or the "tension training" mentioned in the other thread. It's a fine line sometimes between admiring someone for persevering and wondering why they don't make a change.

PS seems to be on it (literally and metaphorically) and, frankly  she's the only one who has to care.
		
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I said that in tongue and cheek off the back of the long, humoured discussion that was had on facebook- sorry.

But 'quirky' to me doesn't always mean outright badly behaved. But then, one mans quirky could be another mans badly behaved. 

I also agree with everything you said.  The first comment wasn't meant to be as blase as it appears though.


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## Booboos (22 January 2014)

This is quite time consuming but could you try ringing up secretaries at all the major shows around you and seeing if they could allow you to ride in either before the show, after the show or during some break? You could approach it as an actual competition, e.g. getting dressed up, plaited, etc., but the actual thing would be a training session and you could work through his tension with a bit more leeway. I appreciate it's quite a lot to ask of show organisers but you never know they might be willing to help.

(Adelinde said a similar story about Parcival. Once he was fine at home he was still bonkers at shows, so every weekend she called organisers up and asked who would let her do just that. She spent a few months 'mock competing' until he got it out of his system and calmed down enough to actualy compete).


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## Honey08 (22 January 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			I don't think it's likely he has an undiagnosed physical issue .
I think it's likely he has a problem when he feels under mental pressure and upwards is his answer .
Time and more experiance will improve this but I think he will probally be a horse whose answer is up when he feels stuff is a bit much .
		
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That would be my take on it too.


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## nikkimariet (22 January 2014)

TarrSteps said:



			By the end of the last day he was unrecognisable from the first test. It was hard work but it was the making of him.
		
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Absolutely - Fig is still like this, to an extent. He is one million times better than when he first started competing, but he is still totally different from his first warm up to his second.

I'm going to return to doing a mini first warm up with him - it's harder work, takes more times and means more effort. But hey, if helps him then I'm game


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## Mickyjoe (22 January 2014)

TarrSteps said:



			Re rearing, there was a popular stallion in my area who threw pretty, talented dressage horses. And every last one stood up as a first resort. Fresh, annoyed, confused - it was their go to. Rearing is just an expression, it's the 'why' that matters.
		
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Yep, I firmly believe that there are horses for whom rearing is their automatic "go-to" reaction to excitement, pressure, pain, basically anything that causes them to react.

We have a TB at home, who will roll in the field, then literally spring up on all four legs, then stand on his hind legs waving his front feet around for a bit and then drops down and quite often finishes it off with a cow kick just like PS's boy did. 

We have others who will turn themselves inside out bucking, but never let their front feet get light. 

Thankfully the rearer doesn't really do it under saddle but I know if he was a more obstinate or dominant horse, he would be waving his front feet around as a resistance. 

I am also in the camp of suspecting that there's not really anything physical wrong with PS's horse at this point. I follow all of the girl's threads and admire the way they have turned out and produced their ex racehorses. It seems to me like most avenues have been explored and I completely agree with PolarSkye's post above that notices him reacting to the bit. Personally, I also feel that's the answer. 

Might be worth giving the Arc a go - I have one for a horse with an injury but having read that it works also for calming I tried using it on a young mare. I travelled her to the event in it and took it off just before dressage. She was sooo cool, calm and collected and did a lovely test. I forgot to put it back on to finish the cycle and when I took her back out for the showjumping she was a different horse and dumped me unceremoniously when another horse cantered towards her!   I dunno.. might be coincidence, but she was definitely unusually calm before the dressage - I thought she must have been tired!


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## DonkeyClub (22 January 2014)

TarrSteps said:



			Re rearing, there was a popular stallion in my area who threw pretty, talented dressage horses. And every last one stood up as a first resort. Fresh, annoyed, confused - it was their go to. Rearing is just an expression, it's the 'why' that matters.
		
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I do agree that there is a HUGE genetic element it rearing. I've worked at a lot of studs,  especially thoroughbred studs, and find it highly amusing to have foals that rear from the very day they are born. Some are just like their mothers. Others must get it from their sires. It it totally, naturally, normally their reaction to any kind of stress, excitement or upset.

I do think that people/ the general public totally over - react about rearers, nappers and buckers when for a lot of horses, especially talented blood horses it is just their natural reaction to a  slightly stressful or difficult situation


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## _GG_ (22 January 2014)

Wow, I just watched the video...very well sat and ridden by the way...and jumped to the end to comment only to read what this has turned into. 

Horses are not machines. They don't need to have pain or discomfort or issues or habits or anxieties or anythingiin order to explain the occasional moment. I don't often like to anthropomorphise horses, but sometimes we just get days where we can be in a mood and end up telling someone to eff off. Horses are no different...sometimes they just decide to have a snap at us. Sometimes they don't even do that...and they'll do stuff for fun/excitement/boredom relief. 

Having a think about whether it could be due to something and doing the checks is of course a good thing but you know what...there doesn't have to be an answer for absolutely everything. 

Sisters, you know your horses inside and out so, for what it's worth, I'd take no notice of the opinions of others. If I had a quid for every competition, especially high level dressage horse I have known that's had a propensity to explode occasionally I wouldn't need to work!!! It doesn't have to mean there is any problem, physical or mental!


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## humblepie (22 January 2014)

Was going to reply much earlier but didn't - Addington indoors does seem to have an electric effect on some horses - not sure why as it is a big spacey nice arena but it does seem to.   Good luck for tomorrow. 

NMT - off thread but if you read this but interested to know more about how you warm Fig up as sounds a little like one of mine, with the anxiety.  The two warms up does seem to help.


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## Auslander (22 January 2014)

_GG_ said:



			Wow, I just watched the video...very well sat and ridden by the way...and jumped to the end to comment only to read what this has turned into. 

Horses are not machines. They don't need to have pain or discomfort or issues or habits or anxieties or anythingiin order to explain the occasional moment. I don't often like to anthropomorphise horses, but sometimes we just get days where we can be in a mood and end up telling someone to eff off. Horses are no different...sometimes they just decide to have a snap at us. Sometimes they don't even do that...and they'll do stuff for fun/excitement/boredom relief. 

Having a think about whether it could be due to something and doing the checks is of course a good thing but you know what...there doesn't have to be an answer for absolutely everything. 

Sisters, you know your horses inside and out so, for what it's worth, I'd take no notice of the opinions of others. If I had a quid for every competition, especially high level dressage horse I have known that's had a propensity to explode occasionally I wouldn't need to work!!! It doesn't have to mean there is any problem, physical or mental!
		
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Damn right! They aren't machines, and bad behaviour isn't always because they need a part oiling. I once said "some horses just like to buck" in response to a thread full of people saying that a horse must be in pain because it had a buck - and got roasted. I kinda like that my big lad will have the odd explosion. I don't think for a minute that its because his back/teeth/saddle are hurting him - he just likes to party sometimes!


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## _GG_ (22 January 2014)

Auslander said:



			Damn right! They aren't machines, and bad behaviour isn't always because they need a part oiling. I once said "some horses just like to buck" in response to a thread full of people saying that a horse must be in pain because it had a buck - and got roasted. I kinda like that my big lad will have the odd explosion. I don't think for a minute that its because his back/teeth/saddle are hurting him - he just likes to party sometimes!
		
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Probably the same people that say Parelli horses are like zombies and isn't it a shame they're personalities have been diminished. I say that myself, but then I don't also moan when horses DO show their personalities. 

Can. Worms. Opened. Oh well....this thread has gone so far from the rather brilliant report it started with why the hell not. 

PS & NMT...I hope you never stop with the brutally honest reports you do. I can't say I follow necessarily as it seems I managed to completely miss this for ages, but when I see them, I really do enjoy them and love seeing how much you treat your horses like horses....not like machines or cotton wool.


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## TarrSteps (22 January 2014)

Jenni_ said:



			I said that in tongue and cheek off the back of the long, humoured discussion that was had on facebook- sorry.

But 'quirky' to me doesn't always mean outright badly behaved. But then, one mans quirky could be another mans badly behaved. 

I also agree with everything you said.  The first comment wasn't meant to be as blase as it appears though.
		
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And I narked at you, so I apologise. 

To me "quirky" (which is not really a phrase I use) describes a horse that acts in an unexpected/abnormal way for reasons that are completely mysterious. The horses that make you stand there with your mouth open. But, as was pointed out to me earlier today, for some people used to dealing with certain types, the sort of behaviour that I would consider normal and expected for athletic horses would be considered "quirky". As you say, a sliding scale.


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## Lyle (22 January 2014)

I have nothing really constructive to say, other than how much I love your reports, PS and NMT. The realistic representations of training and competing horses can be a huge help to those of us trying to do the same things with our horses, but may have hit a rough patch! I have no doubt that both of Fig and CS are looked after to the highest degree, both physically and mentally. Both girls seem to know their horses inside out, and make accurate decisions for their management based on that, far more accurately than readers on a forum!

I can understand part of the struggle of training 'sensitive' horses, having had a few myself! One whos party trick was to stand on his back legs to express ANY emotion. As we know, Horses don't have a voice, so they use action to display how they are feeling. So yes, sometimes it does mean confusion, pain, excitement, but I do believe it can sometimes be just a simple 'NO'. 

I hope those small minded people with bizarre vendettas don't put off the sparkle sisters from posting very informative and engaging threads about their journeys.


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## maccachic (22 January 2014)

Hmm if its not the bit I wonder if its worth looking at the nose band?  Like the update tho.

Had a guy who wouldn't do a nice dressage test if he could see the xc (his fav) I ended up only doing dressage for a season (not planned) and it really settled him.


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## dafthoss (22 January 2014)

Yet I posted a video of mine standing on his back legs for 20 mins having a strop and no one commented about him being majorly broken or in pain he was just being a git..... Admittedly far lower than CS but for longer. 

Any way I agree with the commentator on the video. Little whatsit! Hopefully a few more outings in similar atmosphere will help him settle.


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## maccachic (22 January 2014)

Couldn't hurt to have a look at connected riding they help teach my guy to self relax, he used to get himself wound up and couldn't calm himself down - napping (rear, spin, wouldn't go forward), fence walking etc
He spent a week with Peggy and was a much more relaxed horse who improved in leaps and bounds over the following years.


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## Fools Motto (22 January 2014)

Certainly worthy of a 'Rear of the Year' award.... without big bottoms.. mind you, he has to have a good rear end to stand on! I reckon it has to be due to being rudely awoken at godly hour.. take his duvet, and mattress with you next time!! lol - don't forget his teddy!!
Jokes aside, Swine. Well sat, well managed.


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## cundlegreen (22 January 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			thank you, lovely offer  can you expand on how/when you use it-morning of show or for a few days leading up to it or every day?
		
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I would use it for three or four days before an outing, then travel him with the unit on. I just find it keeps my TB chilled, and more rideable. Mine tends to suffer from a tight lumbar region, and things can just escalate. Certainly worth trying.


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## doriangrey (22 January 2014)

He looks like a horse that is objecting, mentally or physically, no doubt he's objecting though, right?  Just because I see what I see from a video does not mean that I'm being vindictive I am just telling how I see it rightly or wrongly.  Of course the OP knows her horse much more than anyone on this forum does. How does anyone on this forum differentiate between exuberance (in the horse) or a fear/pain response.  An honest question - does a horse have to have so much talent for dressage that it is labelled 'quirky'?


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## Goldenstar (22 January 2014)

doriangrey said:



			He looks like a horse that is objecting, mentally or physically, no doubt he's objecting though, right?  Just because I see what I see from a video does not mean that I'm being vindictive I am just telling how I see it rightly or wrongly.  Of course the OP knows her horse much more than anyone on this forum does. How does anyone on this forum differentiate between exuberance (in the horse) or a fear/pain response.  An honest question - does a horse have to have so much talent for dressage that it is labelled 'quirky'?
		
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My trainer has two saying I like 
" with talent comes trouble "
"for every strength ( as in talent ) the horse has most will have a corresponding weakness ( ie the horse that loves to extend often won't wish to collect )


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## _GG_ (22 January 2014)

doriangrey said:



			How does anyone on this forum differentiate between exuberance (in the horse) or a fear/pain response.  An honest question - does a horse have to have so much talent for dressage that it is labelled 'quirky'?
		
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Personally, I listen to the horse. If a horse only does it in certain situations, like big shows, I almost rule out pain. I say almost because I would still get a work up done in case there are any deep tissue or underlying issues that are exacerbated by tension. If that were the case, I wouldn't necessarily stop doing what I was doing, I would take the lead of my professional team (vet/physio/chiro) and go on their advice so the possibility in this thread of using ArcEquine can be very realistic and effective, amongst other things. 

I think about how the horse was looking, behaving and moving before the explosion and how it goes afterwards. I ask myself what were the outside influences i.e. hard rain, high winds, loud noises etc. I do a quick tack check and generally just "read" the horse and how it is. 

I have always found it quite obvious through the movement to differentiate between pain and just tension or pain and excitement/exuberance. It's harder with horses you don't know and I can't say I am always right, but I can say that when you know a horse, you know it's nature and personality and you know when something is not right through a deep seated sense of feeling. 

The same way we can look at our dog after a night asleep and within 30 seconds of seeing it in the morning, know it is ill. The way you can arrive at the yard in the early hours, pop your head over the stable door and be reaching for your phone within seconds because even though your horse is upright and rugged so you can't see how it's holding itself, you know it has colic. 

I do believe horse have an ability to work through a certain level of pain and discomfort or even just annoyance at a piece of tack or way of riding, but I also believe that this is usually quite obvious when looking at everything else.


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## nikkimariet (22 January 2014)

Just a quick thank you to everyone's helpful suggestions and kind words 



humblepie said:



			NMT - off thread but if you read this but interested to know more about how you warm Fig up as sounds a little like one of mine, with the anxiety.  The two warms up does seem to help.
		
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Spied it!

Yes - 2 warm ups really help.

The first I bring him out and I aim to stretch in w/t/c. Fig works best with lots of walk, little trot and lots of canter. The main aim at this point is just to let him have a look. So I ask him to be round, but don't ask for much (if any!) power. Sometimes he needs a light seat in canter for 10 mins, and that's fine because it clears his head and gets the same result (I just have to remember to work on the lateral stuff more later on). Usually I do little bits of lateral work, thinking shoulder in to travers esp in walk trot and canter (shoulder in to renvers really relaxes him and the change in bend lets me take control of him in terms of neck bend/rib bend/leg on). I find that softens him in the neck and under the saddle, stops him from skipping behind where he's quick/tight/tense. The moment he relaxes, usually 15/20 mins, I put him away for 10-20 mins (time dependent!!!).

I bring him back out and work through a more controlled warm up. With him, I have to focus on getting the ribs soft and getting my leg on. Otherwise he's too electric and over reacts to every leg aid. So 'proper' shoulder in to renver (walk and trot, canter later on - w/t on the straight, canter always on a circle). LY zig zags in walk and trot to get control of the shoulder, make sure he's bringing the quarters over - can I change the bend and keep the angle? Can I give with my inside hand and keep the bend with my leg? Loads and loads of give and retakes, I can't let him take too much of a hold when I warm him up or he can be impossibly strong through tension when I do pick him up. I find asking for deep and round, and then letting my reins slip right out, then bringing the nose back in (keep the leg on so the back keeps swinging) and then back out etc really helps soften him into my hand. Stops him bracing over his withers is the only way I could describe it! Up into canter, inside to outside flexions on a circle. If he's bracing, give and retakes. If he's falling on his shoulder, leg yield out the circle. I like to do counter LY in canter, and play with the flexion - can I keep the angle of the step the same even if I ask for more neck bend etc etc. Really encourage him to step under and over behind, make him use those hips and get rid of any tight feeling. For him, that works better than true LY in canter, where he fobs me off with a braced neck and trails his quarters (counter LY allows me to get my leg on a bit more, which again, is my main thing to achieve with him). Counter canter keeps him concentrating too - it gives me a good moment to check I can hold him on my seat too, that he's not just pulling me along. Renver in CC is good for him too, as focuses on my leg being ON and him moving away from it. The positioning of that with the CC means he can't just run off away from me too. If he's soft in the canter, but just running a little, gear changes back and forward (and really trying to use my seat and not let him encourage me to hang on the reins) helps him. I steer clear of doing transitions whilst stretching, they make him too sharp and too quick behind for it to be productive.

That's about it for the stretching - the follow on when I pick him up depends on what's in the test, and equally, what mood he is in. I've found that not practicing medium trots in the warm up prevents him from running into the hand in the trot work (so sometimes we get a duff one in the ring, but that's a better experience for him and me quite frankly than running and pulling). On a circle, LY out to a G&R encourages them to stay up and soft in the hand. It sure looks messy, but it gets Fig feeling really elastic.

I have one rule that always applies whatever I'm doing and wherever I am - if they do something well, pat and move on (even if you've only done it once)


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## doriangrey (22 January 2014)

_GG_ said:



			Personally, I listen to the horse. If a horse only does it in certain situations, like big shows, I almost rule out pain. I say almost because I would still get a work up done in case there are any deep tissue or underlying issues that are exacerbated by tension. If that were the case, I wouldn't necessarily stop doing what I was doing, I would take the lead of my professional team (vet/physio/chiro) and go on their advice so the possibility in this thread of using ArcEquine can be very realistic and effective, amongst other things. 

I think about how the horse was looking, behaving and moving before the explosion and how it goes afterwards. I ask myself what were the outside influences i.e. hard rain, high winds, loud noises etc. I do a quick tack check and generally just "read" the horse and how it is. 

I have always found it quite obvious through the movement to differentiate between pain and just tension or pain and excitement/exuberance. It's harder with horses you don't know and I can't say I am always right, but I can say that when you know a horse, you know it's nature and personality and you know when something is not right through a deep seated sense of feeling. 

The same way we can look at our dog after a night asleep and within 30 seconds of seeing it in the morning, know it is ill. The way you can arrive at the yard in the early hours, pop your head over the stable door and be reaching for your phone within seconds because even though your horse is upright and rugged so you can't see how it's holding itself, you know it has colic. 

I do believe horse have an ability to work through a certain level of pain and discomfort or even just annoyance at a piece of tack or way of riding, but I also believe that this is usually quite obvious when looking at everything else.
		
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Thanks, and also to Goldenstar.  But I struggle, because isn't dressage supposed to be about harmony between rider and horse?  It so often seems at odds when you watch it!  Fair enough though, OP knows her horse better than any other and I truly hope they can work through the issues and have the best success


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## _GG_ (22 January 2014)

doriangrey said:



			Thanks, and also to Goldenstar.  But I struggle, because isn't dressage supposed to be about harmony between rider and horse?  It so often seems at odds when you watch it!  Fair enough though, OP knows her horse better than any other and I truly hope they can work through the issues and have the best success 

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Harmony is the aim, the goal, the pinnacle that is sought. So, unless you are watching Charlotte and Valegro or a few other great combinations, when you watch competitions at all levels, you are watching works in progress. 

What you see at the competitions is horses that are often a little excited and tense and riders that are often a little nervous or apprehensive. This means that the harmony that for many of these combinations would be seen in everyday training at home, is lost at competition, if not always, sometimes. 

The more experienced a horse gets at different venues and with different levels of competition/number of spectators, the more it will relax and the harmony that is achieved at home can be seen in the ring. Even then, even at the level of qualifying for the Olympics having years of experience in international arenas, we still saw some horses freak out at London 2012. Harmony is hard to show in the ring in those circumstances so I don't think the harmony between horse and rider can be judged on what you see in the ring. 

That said, there are also plenty of people for whom harmony is unimportant...but the tide is turning and they won't be getting the results they want for much longer IMO.


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## delaneys (23 January 2014)

For what it's worth I have followed your journey with him and also knew him a bit before you had him, this horse is very lucky to have you and I know someone who was going to view him before you did and thank god he didn't go there! 
You have done a fantastic amazing job with him and your sister with her horse too. I think some negative comments you get are due to jealousy, and others just seem to want to bring you down and I'm really unsure why?! 
Keep doing what your doing, it's obviously working and the horse is always going to be prone to rearing, it's his thing, doesn't mean there is a problem! 

P.S I think this incident was just due to CS objecting to early start and being jealous that Fig was still in bed


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## Firewell (23 January 2014)

Wow well sat! He looks absolutely gorgeous though. I can only admire you for having the talent, the drive and skill to produce a horse so well. He is normally so consistent I can't be the only person secretly glad that you get the odd bad day also, makes us lesser mortals feel a bit better . Cptrays or whatever her name is, is probably just jealous. I find it odd how people can genuinely have the time or inclination to get so wound up about others. I like looking at the pretty pictures and get inspiration from reading yours and NMT's updates. Your posts do wonders for my position and Jae gets to thank you for his sparkly browband (even if I do fail at the matchy!).


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## humblepie (23 January 2014)

NMT thank you for your response to my question.  Will peruse over a cuppa.


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## Pigeon (23 January 2014)

Firewell said:



			Wow well sat! He looks absolutely gorgeous though. I can only admire you for having the talent, the drive and skill to produce a horse so well. He is normally so consistent I can't be the only person secretly glad that you get the odd bad day also, makes us lesser mortals feel a bit better . Cptrays or whatever her name is, is probably just jealous. I find it odd how people can genuinely have the time or inclination to get so wound up about others. I like looking at the pretty pictures and get inspiration from reading yours and NMT's updates. Your posts do wonders for my position and Jae gets to thank you for his sparkly browband (even if I do fail at the matchy!).
		
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Hahaha after admiring PS's wonderful seat and gorgeous turnout, I'll admit that did cross my mind! But maybe I'm just evil  

Seriously though, he's looking absolutely fantastic.


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## monkeybum13 (23 January 2014)

Firewell said:



			Wow well sat! He looks absolutely gorgeous though. I can only admire you for having the talent, the drive and skill to produce a horse so well. He is normally so consistent I can't be the only person secretly glad that you get the odd bad day also, makes us lesser mortals feel a bit better . Cptrays or whatever her name is, is probably just jealous. I find it odd how people can genuinely have the time or inclination to get so wound up about others. I like looking at the pretty pictures and get inspiration from reading yours and NMT's updates. Your posts do wonders for my position and Jae gets to thank you for his sparkly browband (even if I do fail at the matchy!).
		
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 Of course it is jealousy, that's why all the posts towards PS and NMT are always bitter and nit picking.

PS I love reading your reports, you have done such an amazing job with CS, something few other people could achieve.


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## doriangrey (23 January 2014)

monkeybum13 said:



			Of course it is jealousy, that's why all the posts towards PS and NMT are always bitter and nit picking.

PS I love reading your reports, you have done such an amazing job with CS, something few other people could achieve.
		
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That's nonsense, if someone can't have an opposing viewpoint without being accused of jealousy then you might as well accuse the rest of being raging sycophants!

Lastly, as for Cpt (and she won't thank me for this, don't know her tbh), but I followed her blog for a while and she got just as much advice (probably less polite) from the OP.

As I said before, good luck and success to the OP and her horse and I expect she'll get to the bottom of his problems.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (24 January 2014)

doriangrey said:



			That's nonsense, if someone can't have an opposing viewpoint without being accused of jealousy then you might as well accuse the rest of being raging sycophants!

Lastly, as for Cpt (and she won't thank me for this, don't know her tbh), but I followed her blog for a while and she got just as much advice (probably less polite) from the OP.

As I said before, good luck and success to the OP and her horse and I expect she'll get to the bottom of his problems.
		
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i was actually incredibly polite to CPT! I tried to point out the flaws in her training in the most systematic and logical manner possible, based on not only my experience with CS but also my very difficult previous horse and all the re-hab/re-school horses i ride for other people.... and do you know what i got back from CPT for my trouble-swearing, childish and immature rants and in the end basically got told that anyone who disagreed with her on her blog could F off......lovely, very grown up, very classy, very adult....

Am just typing up a report on Solihull yesterday for both CS and Fig


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## Sheep (24 January 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			Am just typing up a report on Solihull yesterday for both CS and Fig 

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Looking forward to reading the next installment! They are a fascinating duo.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (24 January 2014)

ok, so firstly Fig:

(From NMT)

"We set off to Solihull with the best intentions of arriving well in time for Fig to do 2 warm ups for his first class  this does settle him (and me!) and although its a bit of a faff, it works best for the horse. Sadly, held up on M6 for what felt like an eternity so arrived late and frazzled!!! He was very sharp when I first got on, but all credit to him he did try his hardest for me. I couldnt quite get the swing and connection in his work I had at Vale, but I would say he was softer into the contact yesterday. Silver linings and all that 

Outside for the Elem, and its quite an open arena with lots to look at. So very good practice for him! He didnt spook to be fair to him, but just peacocked off the contact and went a bit show pony on me. Everything was sweet  barring a break in a canter circle  but just too tight. I came out fully aware it wasnt a brilliant test (also the judge for Elem and Med prefer big and big moving horses, so I knew we werent going to be winning them over at any rate!!!!); there wasnt enough time to put him away and get him back out for the Med so I focussed on getting him really round and really soften to try and release the tension in his back. He felt loads better and the warm up was quieter so I could press him and work him through more (although it was calm with sensible riding when we first got there, and I quite enjoyed admiring some of the other horses. Id happily sell my soul for one of them!).

Off I went for the Med... Only for the judge to make some unnecessary and uncalled for comments  wont go any further into it as have lodged a formal complaint with the RDO. So I started *very* flustered!!!! Poor Fig, he didnt half impress me. I was expecting him to spook at the fillers/poles against the sides, and also the light strips from the door ways/roof on the surface. But he didnt even hint that he was thinking about doing so  The test was ok  the tempo went a little ragged and some bits were green. But not a bad job for our first attempt at the hardest medium there is!!!! We had one major bobble  a simple change because canter walk wrong leg trot correct leg. And although it was a mistake, it was my fault and Im pleased he let me sort it without any fuss.

We came 2nd with 65% in the Elem (winner on 66%)  which I am pleased with as this judge gave me lower marks ages back for what I thought was a good test. So if we can improve marks when I know that it wasnt spot on, it can only be a good thing! In the Med we got 63.5% (training) - with marks ranging from 4's to 8.5s! (judge hated everything to do with his extensions and not mad keen on his general trot work, but liked all of the sideways stuff, centre lines/halts, walk and rein back) Got an 8.5 for the simple change I didnt mess up and a 4 for the one I did! Whoops. 

All in all not our best day, but feel like it was good experience for Fig and worth the trip. Onwards to Keysoe "

So swapped the boys over, sorted out the revolting mess CS had made eating his lunch in the lorry (seriously horse, feed splattered on the ceiling?!) and got on his lordship....

He was MUCH more settled straight away, but then of course it was a much less buzzy show. Really concentrated on pushing him forward out every corner in the canter and not letting him bunch up on me and get too quick quick behind. I obviously can't say if employing the same tactics would have made ANY difference at Addington as he was just softer and less wound up generally but it certainly didnt MAKE him hotter (by me pushing him forward and longer) so worth a try next time he does come out on fire.

He felt to me, and looked to NMT, like he just wasn't quite his usual self in the warm up: he didn't put a foot wrong but equally he felt a bit holding and unsure and not as snarly and cocky as is normal.............in to the test and it started off positively with nice trot work and settled walk work. Up in to canter sweetly and did the canter HP left, changed...........then stopped, propped, thought about rearing but immediately decided not to and of his own volition popped back up to the HP right, hit the track and changed beautifully.
He did then stop off the next corner again, but instantly decided he was actully going and went off and did a really smart piri and from then on it was all nicely flowing and forward.

I put my hand up again as know the judge is very very hard, but on totting it up it wouldn't have been too horrendous-58% ish, or 63.4-64% ish if i took at 6 or 6.5 instead of the 3/4's for the blips and submission etc. I would have been thrilled with that from that particular judge so at least it's all coming together generally.

My gut feeling is that he remembered Addington, knew what was coming and stopped to take stock almost in the zig zag. He picked it up again without any pushing and was very up for it and on the ball in the piris and tempis so not a loss of confidence generally.

Inter 1 debut is shelved for time being and he will toddle off to Vale to do a PSG in Feb, and work on the zig zag at home in bewteen and hopefully by then he will have forgiven me for messing with his bits!

Watching the video back, the biggest thing sticking out like a sore thumb is that he is still only 99% in front of me, 99% of the time and those 2% areas are a hole that needs filling asap. I have contacted someone I really respect, who reached GP on an *off breed* and is very down to earth and will be making this the focus of our work before we move up. The quality of the contact needs to improve a bit before anything else-sometimes its very good and sometimes its ok but as she immediately noticed "its on his terms".
If hes just bracing a little bit, it stops the hind leg in its tracks, and of course if he's not submissive in the contact it gives him more opportunity to not be submissive in his mind!

So.....contact and forward need tweaking a bit now, in order to move up, but i feel like i've got some good advice to work on that will really help  It may well be a case of breaking eggs to make omlettes initially but ive got a few weeks before Vale to hopefully talk CS round!


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## JustMe22 (24 January 2014)

My TB is similar in that rearing is his thing when he gets stressed, though he tends to go not as high, and couple it with a leap/spin/buck, we invariably end up facing the other way to how we started out! Have the same thing with the double too - seems to be happier with two bits than one.

I know you used to use a calmer, is it worth putting him back on it for the big shows? Or even something like rescue remedy? Otherwise - lunging before you sit on him if he feels stressed? Haven't read all the replies so sorry if it's been mentioned already


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## TarrSteps (24 January 2014)

Sounds like a productive if somewhat stressful day.

Re PS, it's that old thing about margins and basics, isn't it?  Your basics can be "good enough" (which can be very good indeed) for one level but not quite there when you move up a notch and the margins get smaller.  I think this happens to everyone - you get used to the way things are and it's working so that extra push doesn't seem necessary.  It also may not be "there" - the horse may not be strong enough or developed enough to get that next % of straightness/softness when you do step up, it's only by stepping up that you find that line there and have to work across it.

I don't think it's necessarily pertinent to you, but to tie everything together, this is where I find the "spook busting" is helpful for the bigger picture and why I get cranky when people think it's just about exposing the horse until it doesn't react anymore.  I find quite often people tell me their horse is great off the leg/into the contact/whatever (or that it leads perfectly) . . . right up until it meets with a stressful situation. Proper work teaches the horse to react positively to those situations, to work THROUGH (in all senses) not just shut down and take it.  Done correctly, it provides infinite, controllable situations to keep having that conversation with the horse and "checking your work".  It's an easy, at home way of enhancing performance by feeding little bits of stress into the situation.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (24 January 2014)

its a very fine line with him, the calmer eventually made him too asleep and then behind the leg and then pissy about going forward. I did wonder if i should try it again but equally feel like if i can sort the contact out 100% and get him some more big show exposure it might not be needed?

lunging isnt really and option as he's not very good at it, he swings his bum in and takes pot shots at you and rears and puts his leg over the line. Never really do as feel like i need to pick my battles-no point irritating him over something that doesnt really matter, it wouldnt have any impact on his ridden work except to pee him off. Same reason i dont push him to hack a lot or to jump at all-i almost need to reserve all his good will for what really matters lol!


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (24 January 2014)

TarrSteps said:



			Sounds like a productive if somewhat stressful day.

Re PS, it's that old thing about margins and basics, isn't it?  Your basics can be "good enough" (which can be very good indeed) for one level but not quite there when you move up a notch and the margins get smaller.  I think this happens to everyone - you get used to the way things are and it's working so that extra push doesn't seem necessary.  It also may not be "there" - the horse may not be strong enough or developed enough to get that next % of straightness/softness when you do step up, it's only by stepping up that you find that line there and have to work across it.

I don't think it's necessarily pertinent to you, but to tie everything together, this is where I find the "spook busting" is helpful for the bigger picture and why I get cranky when people think it's just about exposing the horse until it doesn't react anymore.  I find quite often people tell me their horse is great off the leg/into the contact/whatever (or that it leads perfectly) . . . right up until it meets with a stressful situation. Proper work teaches the horse to react positively to those situations, to work THROUGH (in all senses) not just shut down and take it.  Done correctly, it provides infinite, controllable situations to keep having that conversation with the horse and "checking your work".  It's an easy, at home way of enhancing performance by feeding little bits of stress into the situation.
		
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brilliant post TS, nail on head.

Ponies will have an easy weekend but then will get thinking caps on about the spook busting next week as i totally see what you mean


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## siennamum (24 January 2014)

this is an interesting thread. PS you are very brave.

My gelding rears in any situation, when happy, cross, frustrated or excited. He rears when ridden, in his stable and in the field. He is very happy and comfortable on his back legs.

He learned fast with his previous owner that rearing gets you out of work. Inevitably rearing will work because however brave or competent you are, when the horse rears the rider becomes passive. While the horse is in the air the pressure is off.

Mine rarely rears under saddle these days, he knows I will hit him around the head & spin him, if he rears and it has put him off a bit he also has far more confidence in me and argues less generally. Fundamentally though he has a streak of stubborn insubordination, which will always be there. It's like the notion of off the leg, he is lovely off the leg - till he isn't, which is not a training issue but a state of mind!


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (24 January 2014)

siennamum said:



			this is an interesting thread. PS you are very brave.

My gelding rears in any situation, when happy, cross, frustrated or excited. He rears when ridden, in his stable and in the field. He is very happy and comfortable on his back legs.

He learned fast with his previous owner that rearing gets you out of work. Inevitably rearing will work because however brave or competent you are, when the horse rears the rider becomes passive. While the horse is in the air the pressure is off.

Mine rarely rears under saddle these days, he knows I will hit him around the head & spin him, if he rears and it has put him off a bit he also has far more confidence in me and argues less generally. Fundamentally though he has a streak of stubborn insubordination, which will always be there. It's like the notion of off the leg, he is lovely off the leg - till he isn't, which is not a training issue but a state of mind!
		
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its hard isnt it, because how do you work on it? (without just pasting them senseless) and how do you work on it when it isnt there all the time? I think Tarr Steps ideas are very clever and probably the crux of the solution-keep training for unexpected issues at home, so you can train the response to be different. Subtely different to *traditional* training but an interesting idea and one that as off next week ill be putting in to practice. Will report back 

as far as punishment goes-again a tough one, if you belt CS he will stop....then......but next time he will go higher and quicker and its almost like hes going to get in there first and *have you* because last time you hit him. 
when he lands back on the floor THEN i can tell him forward at all costs, but not mid rear.


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## TarrSteps (24 January 2014)

But, to be fair, traditional training IS about infinitely refining the aids and the horse's response. If you read Seunig, or Littauer or any classic they are all about incrementally increasing the pressures and schooling for the immediate correct response. The same is true of Dorrance or Hunt, of course. Or any 'modern master' like Morris or Karl or any of the very successful competitive dressage trainers. The usefulness of 'spook bursting' is that it's a bit more measurable and adjustable in the sort of training environment most of us work in now. 

Having a horse off the leg is ALWAYS a state of mind. For the record, I've never seen it 'taught' successfully by kicking or hitting. These aids can be use to get the horse going and punish an incorrect response, definitely. But the actual training is much more subtle. It's a bit like 'seeing a stride' - people who know how to do it have a hard time explaining it. I still maintain the only way to learn it is to ride a horse that's truly off the leg, at least once. You'll never confuse the feel with a horse just going forward again.


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## siennamum (24 January 2014)

I think this is all true of my horse TS. He is a clever horse who went from A - Z in his mind and I had to go back and try for a few steps in between in his training, to get him on side & happy, there's an argument for a parallel training programme now which focusses on resetting many of his responses. He would love Parelli or another form of NH, he likes using his brain and is playful. He is also continually seeking to dominate  though and I worry that doing something a bit left field could actually make him dangerous if it went wrong!
I keep meaning to get our local AEBC lady out to him, I think Andrew Maclean makes huge amounts of sense and this stuff could unlock his resistance. It's just finding time really.
http://www.aebc.com.au/moreaboutaebc


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## JustMe22 (24 January 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			its a very fine line with him, the calmer eventually made him too asleep and then behind the leg and then pissy about going forward. I did wonder if i should try it again but equally feel like if i can sort the contact out 100% and get him some more big show exposure it might not be needed?

lunging isnt really and option as he's not very good at it, he swings his bum in and takes pot shots at you and rears and puts his leg over the line. Never really do as feel like i need to pick my battles-no point irritating him over something that doesnt really matter, it wouldnt have any impact on his ridden work except to pee him off. Same reason i dont push him to hack a lot or to jump at all-i almost need to reserve all his good will for what really matters lol!
		
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Fair enough - read through the thread now, bloody hell, I missed a lot didn't I?

I have the same issue with calmer, mine is a lazy, idle sod by nature but when he does get excitable it is never in a forward way that can be harnessed. Just in an upwards/sideways manner. Same with the hacking - I gave up on it, he's terrible to hack! Good to jump though, fortunately, but hacking just isn't worth the hassle for something that is meant to be fun/a 'switch off' of sorts.

Still on the calmer note though, the only calmer that worked for him was one that made use of Tryptophan..it was the only one that kept him sane but still forward, so may be worth a look, but totally understand where you're coming from if you think it may be unnecessary. Would give you the name but it would be useless as I'm not in the UK, but it was basically Vitamin B and Tryptophan...have you tried Brewers yeast, as an aside? Its super cheap and I seem to remember you saying a while back that he had a sensitive gut? Can help to settle it so could be worth a punt as it certainly shouldn't do any harm. (I also don't think there's anything particularly wrong with him, however!)


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## cundlegreen (24 January 2014)

TarrSteps said:



			But, to be fair, traditional training IS about infinitely refining the aids and the horse's response. If you read Seunig, or Littauer or any classic they are all about incrementally increasing the pressures and schooling for the immediate correct response. The same is true of Dorrance or Hunt, of course. Or any 'modern master' like Morris or Karl or any of the very successful competitive dressage trainers. The usefulness of 'spook bursting' is that it's a bit more measurable and adjustable in the sort of training environment most of us work in now. 


Having a horse off the leg is ALWAYS a state of mind. For the record, I've never seen it 'taught' successfully by kicking or hitting. These aids can be use to get the horse going and punish an incorrect response, definitely. But the actual training is much more subtle. It's a bit like 'seeing a stride' - people who know how to do it have a hard time explaining it. I still maintain the only way to learn it is to ride a horse that's truly off the leg, at least once. You'll never confuse the feel with a horse just going forward again.
		
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I have Nuno Oliveira's Fundamentals of Equestrian Art, which I found very inspiring. There's a lot in there about response to the leg, which I tried on a very sour 5 yr old, who had completely shut down to any leg aid due to incorrect schooling. I got her really listening for the leg aid mostly in turns on the haunches, and it really was a "light bulb" moment.


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## spookypony (24 January 2014)

Kudos to NM for taking something positive away from what could have been a stressful occasion! CS really is rather clever, isn't he; first remembering what happened before, and then deciding to go with you anyway. I'll be interested to hear how the "spook busting" works in practice; do keep us posted!


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## cptrayes (26 January 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			i was actually incredibly polite to CPT! I tried to point out the flaws in her training in the most systematic and logical manner possible, based on not only my experience with CS but also my very difficult previous horse and all the re-hab/re-school horses i ride for other people.... and do you know what i got back from CPT for my trouble-swearing, childish and immature rants and in the end basically got told that anyone who disagreed with her on her blog could F off......lovely, very grown up, very classy, very adult....
		
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Please excuse me for digging this thread up again, but I was unavoidably detained.

The truth is here :

Www.diaryoface.blogspot.com

starting with a comment on Sunday 16th of November which says:




			each and every one of your horses has ended up the same way; bargy, unsettled and showing signs of illogical behaviour.
		
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I never told any poster to f off, the comment I made was that I couldn't give a flying f about her results, after she had quoted her scores as her evidence that she knew best how to train my horse. That is the only edit that has been done and it was done the day after it was written.

The horse which she is so adamant that I am ruining and making unrideable is now going so sweetly that I am  planning his return to competition.


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## shortstuff99 (26 January 2014)

I don't normally comment like this but on your blog (and here) you sound very very bitter. If you really don't get on well wouldn't the best response be to continue on your path and then show your successes? Show how YOUR way has worked? Rather then take continual potshots?


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## delaneys (26 January 2014)

shortstuff99 said:



			I don't normally comment like this but on your blog (and here) you sound very very bitter. If you really don't get on well wouldn't the best response be to continue on your path and then show your successes? Show how YOUR way has worked? Rather then take continual potshots?
		
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This, and why do you feel the need to post about them with links to on here? 

Touch of the green eyed monster I think.


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## JFTDWS (26 January 2014)

The horse you abandoned in a field, fully tacked up to "think about what it had done" only a matter of weeks ago, CPT?  That is an astounding turn around, clearly...

At least PS and NMT are honest about their shortcomings on here.


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## only_me (26 January 2014)

JFTD said:



			The horse you abandoned in a field, fully tacked up to "think about what it had done" only a matter of weeks ago, CPT?  That is an astounding turn around, clearly...

At least PS and NMT are honest about their shortcomings on here.
		
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I'm glad I wasn't the only one to think that leaving horse in field tacked up to think about its mistakes was a bit unusual... but everyone has their methods I guess. 

The not so perfect horse is a good book to read


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (26 January 2014)

cptrayes said:



Www.diaryoface.blogspot.com

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I've posted a comment on your blog, in order to correct a few inaccuracies of your latest post


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## TarrSteps (26 January 2014)

*sigh* It was all going so well.


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## dianchi (26 January 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Please excuse me for digging this thread up again, but I was unavoidably detained.

The truth is here :

Www.diaryoface.blogspot.com

starting with a comment on Sunday 16th of November which says:



I never told any poster to f off, the comment I made was that I couldn't give a flying f about her results, after she had quoted her scores as her evidence that she knew best how to train my horse. That is the only edit that has been done and it was done the day after it was written.

The horse which she is so adamant that I am ruining and making unrideable is now going so sweetly that I am  planning his return to competition.
		
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For goodness sake get over yourself.

Wanna prove them wrong, do it, then come and tell us all about it once you get the comp results to back up your methods. I hope ace does return to competition so that it's then a level surface (so to speak) Currently you sound like a very bitter person.

Ps who knew banning was now termed "unavoidably detained" lol


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (26 January 2014)

It's ok TS, don't cry! Just that CPT got myself and NMT mixed up and I don't want her blog followers getting confused etc etc


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## Jenni_ (26 January 2014)

Have just read the latest post on that blog. Seriously?

*sighs and shakes head*


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## ihatework (26 January 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			I've posted a comment on your blog, in order to correct a few inaccuracies of your latest post 

Click to expand...

Someone has to be the bigger person. The only thing in my mind is to ignore people like this, let them have the last word, anyone with half a brain can see the situation for what it is.


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## TPO (26 January 2014)

ihatework said:



			Someone has to be the bigger person. The only thing in my mind is to ignore people like this, let them have the last word, anyone with half a brain can see the situation for what it is.
		
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This

Just a general question but are you "allowed" to write libelous statements about people, even in personal blogs?  Can people just get away with fully naming you and writing whatever they want?? I find that quite scary!


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## LittleGinger (26 January 2014)

I strongly suggest, CPTrayes, that you put the 'SparkleSisters' on UI. I can see little to be gained from not doing so!

Initially, apart from revealing PS' name, I didn't think your reply seemed particularly out of order, although it's obviously much clearer now that there is history here. However, because you posted a link to your blog, I have read through it - from the post which prompted PS to comment initially (in which, if I have read it correctly, your horse was poorly behaved throughout a hack, so once you were home you turned him out - fully tacked up - in a friend's field and left him there whilst you went to work another horse?) to your most recent, which I found extremely inappropriate. This is not really the thread for discussing your blog in detail (or at all, really?), and of course you won't care what I think since you don't know me from Adam, but I am concerned that whatever point you were trying to make by posting the blog above has potential to backfire on you.

I don't necessarily agree that it is straight forward jealousy, but I also see no point at all in continuing this online 'conversation' across different sites.  By using UI you will indeed be able to "wrap up this nonsense and put it to bed".


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## charlie76 (26 January 2014)

I think some one has an unhealthy obsession with the sparkle sisters! Very very weird!


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## Mickyjoe (26 January 2014)

I have absolutely no dog in this argument,  but just for context, what level do you yourself compete CPT?


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## little_flea (26 January 2014)

Videos available on YouTube, judge for yourself... cptrayes, you really don't come across very well on the Internet, time to pack it in for a bit perhaps.


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## montanna (26 January 2014)

What a strange and quite frankly creepy obsession with the girls this person has. Think I will be putting them on user ignore myself! Very, very odd.


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## philamena (26 January 2014)

TPO said:



			This

Just a general question but are you "allowed" to write libelous statements about people, even in personal blogs?  Can people just get away with fully naming you and writing whatever they want?? I find that quite scary!
		
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And a general answer...  No you're not. Publishing is publishing. But as well as the content, proving defamation is based on how many are likely to have read it (so in this case not many) and proving damage to reputation.


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## redcascade (26 January 2014)

Surely for cptrayes to take such offence to what PS said, she must've had some sort of belief in it? If she was really happy with Ace she would've just deleted the comment and forgot all about what PS wrote, rather than coming on here and nit picking and putting slanderous posts about PS on her blog. 
Just my opinion, easily solved with U.I though!


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## Lyle (26 January 2014)

Such a highly inappropriate post on cptrayes blog :/ honestly, you are making yourself look more like a fool, and a nasty, immature and vindictive one! The insinuation in the post is nothing short of insulting and is profoundly childish.  Just delete it, and back away for ever...


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## Moomin1 (26 January 2014)

Do you know what? This whole thread is getting ridiculous. Surely it's time to give it a break?


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## Goldenstar (26 January 2014)

I am speechless ,does not happen often.


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## loopiesteff (26 January 2014)

That blog is just... OMG. How old is this CPTyraes whatever the hell it is meant to be?!! This has become ridiculous, and as others have said, an unhealthy obsession with both NMT and PS!!! 

Freak dot com.


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## LittleGinger (26 January 2014)

LittleGinger said:



			I strongly suggest, CPTrayes, that you put the 'SparkleSisters' on UI. I can see little to be gained from not doing so!
		
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Just to clarify (can't edit post due to timings) - I suggested this purely to save CPT from further embarrassment and not because I think NMT or PS have said anything nasty or inappropriate to her! I actually think they have handled any criticism or bizarre comments really quite professionally.


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