# Cut won't heal!



## jnorman (5 June 2016)

My TB gelding recently got injured in the field, I don't know how but when we brought him in there was a cut just above the hoof on the outside of his foreleg. It was a clean cut and wasn't hot so I hosed it and put some sudacream on then turned him out again. The next day it was hot and swelled up so we started giving him bute in his feed and bandaging it up. We stopped bandaging it after a few days and were hoping for the swelling to go down and a scar to form but it didn't do we called the vet and they gave us antibiotic. The swelling has gone down a bit now but it won't form a scar and the swelling hasn't completely gone down so I wanted to know if anyone had any advice on what to do? He is still getting bute and we put fly cream on it every day. Thanks!!


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## Dry Rot (5 June 2016)

Try salt water. It does work and was told to me by a vet with a twinkle in her eye and a whispered, "Don't tell anyone!"


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## lamlyn2012 (5 June 2016)

Salt water is good for cleaning wounds but will kill healthy cells if not diluted appropriatley. One teaspoon to one pint warm water.
I have always been if the opinion that wounds should be kept moist for optimal healing. I'm surprised your vet didn't leave you with anything to apply. Flamazine ointment is very good, available from the vet. 
How often do you apply fly cream, as if flies are getting on it it will never heal. It may be worth bringing in for a few days.


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## SusieT (5 June 2016)

vet to re examine!


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## SullivanB (5 June 2016)

look into renting a photizo phototherapy unit, they are excellent for wound healing


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## Beausmate (5 June 2016)

Is it possible there could be something in the wound?


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## ycbm (6 June 2016)

How old is the horse?  Cuts failing to heal is one sign of Cushings. If it continues to be a problem and no reason is found you might consider testing him for it. The test is free at the moment.


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## jnorman (6 June 2016)

ycbm said:



			How old is the horse?  Cuts failing to heal is one sign of Cushings. If it continues to be a problem and no reason is found you might consider testing him for it. The test is free at the moment.
		
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 he is ten so still quite  young. What other signs are there?


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## ester (6 June 2016)

Vet, it still sounds infected, your initial treatment wasn't great for infection control tbh and it was a while (days) until antibiotics were first administered so plenty of time for an infection to establish and you don't want this ending up being a lymphangitis.


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## jnorman (6 June 2016)

I don't think there is anything in it because we hosed it each time we bandaged it and the vet was confident that it would be OK!


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## dollyanna (6 June 2016)

I would try bandaging with honey (ideally medihoney but clean manuka would do), a good amount to keep it moist and check it once a day - leave it longer if you can. It seems to heal even faster if you mix a tiny bit of neem with the honey. Don't hose, disturb it as little as possible, if you need to wash it then just drizzle boiled water or cold tea over it to wash it out and gently dab dry.


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## ycbm (6 June 2016)

jnorman said:



			he is ten so still quite  young. What other signs are there?
		
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There are often no signs at all. I've had two friends with ten year olds where the only sign was a slight footiness on stones which most people would put down to being barefoot. The most recent one was told by her vet that she was wasting her money. Cue a very red faced vet when the result came back as a sky high positive.


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## dollyanna (6 June 2016)

^ and Cushings tests are free again at the moment so just the blood sample to pay for.


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## WandaMare (6 June 2016)

One of my horses once had a wound just in the middle above the coronary band. As soon as he arrived the vet told me it was in a position that was notoriously difficult to heal due to the constant stretching there, so it sounded as though he has seen a few. I'm not saying it isn't not healing for another reason, but it might just be because of where it is. I would talk to the vet again. I ended up using manuka honey although I didn't bandage it and eventually it healed. I did have to keep her in for a while though.


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## BethH (6 June 2016)

Try dermagel - brilliant for keeping wound moist and healing from inside out.  Manuka honey, the highest grade possible is fab and if there is no infection calendular oil (Neal's Yard) is brilliant at knitting the wound and for soft tissue healing, also helps prevent scars as it heals.  I think with this cut I would go for Manuka honey as it seems to stop the infections as well as helping the wound mend.

Good luck, sounds in a tricky place.


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## jnorman (6 June 2016)

Thank you so much everyone who replied &#9786; Will try manuka honey and hope for the best but I am still open to suggestions and advice if you have any!!


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## ester (6 June 2016)

Please get the vet to look at it rather than manuka honey (please make sure that is medical grade and gamma irradiated) and hoping for the best. Lymphangitis is horrid and once they have had it they will always be prone.


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## Tnavas (7 June 2016)

Wash with saline solution, then put on an animalintex poultice for a few days - It sounds infected. Avoid wound powder as it can cause proud flesh - the wound itself may produce proud flesh as its natures way of healing.

Ester - Activated MAnuka honey does not need to be of medical grade for horses - especially if it comes from New Zealand, which is where the majority of Manuka bushes grow - our bees are extremely healthy! I've been using supermarket Manuka honey for 15 or so years and I worked in the equine industry here until only a few years ago. It is safe. 

OP - the honey is amazing stuff and does a good job
From this 






to this in 5 weeks


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## ester (7 June 2016)

It needs to be gamma irradiated so that you don't risk the addition of potentially infective spores into the wound. I am a microbiologist, this is not debatable and it has nothing to do with the health of the bees! 
Is no one else seriously worried that this horse has had an infection for quite a few days now (specifics not given) that it hasn't been resolved and if becoming systemic in that leg is not going to be resolved by some saline and animalintex!?!


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## Auslander (7 June 2016)

ester said:



			It needs to be gamma irradiated so that you don't risk the addition of potentially infective spores into the wound. I am a microbiologist, this is not debatable and it has nothing to do with the health of the bees! 
Is no one else seriously worried that this horse has had an infection for quite a few days now (specifics not given) that it hasn't been resolved and if becoming systemic in that leg is not going to be resolved by some saline and animalintex!?!
		
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Head - brick wall. I wouldn't even bother!


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## Tnavas (7 June 2016)

ester said:



			It needs to be gamma irradiated so that you don't risk the addition of potentially infective spores into the wound. I am a microbiologist, this is not debatable and it has nothing to do with the health of the bees! 
Is no one else seriously worried that this horse has had an infection for quite a few days now (specifics not given) that it hasn't been resolved and if becoming systemic in that leg is not going to be resolved by some saline and animalintex!?!
		
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What sort of spores are you expecting to find, I'd only heard of people stressing about botulism, which according to the honey council people is actually very rare. 

Auslander, your rude comments are not appreciated. I am not stupid and have used activated Manuka honey for a long time on many injuries, small and so large a jar was poured into the wound each day. Horse went on to race.


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## ester (7 June 2016)

It doesn't matter if it is rare or not, it just has to be possible, lots of things are rare, it doesn't mean that if you can you shouldn't be taking simple preventative measures. Gamma irradiation doesn't harm the product there is no reason not to buy a gamma irradiated product if you want to use it for wound healing, it is just sensible and I like my horses enough to take that precaution. 

And not just botulism Clostriditum botulinum, but other species of clostridia and Bacillus too, several can cause infection and therefore not assist with wound healing.

It isn't an issue in the honey usually as in it's concentrated form it suppresses germination, it's when it mixes with other stuff, like wound gunk and becomes diluted. 

(I did my PhD in Clostridium spp.)


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## Auslander (7 June 2016)

Tnavas said:



			What sort of spores are you expecting to find, I'd only heard of people stressing about botulism, which according to the honey council people is actually very rare. 

Auslander, your rude comments are not appreciated. I am not stupid and have used activated Manuka honey for a long time on many injuries, small and so large a jar was poured into the wound each day. Horse went on to race.
		
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I have never said that manuka, food or clinical grade, is not wonderful stuff. In fact, I am a great advocate of its use in compromised wounds - as you well know. Yet again, I will explain myself to you - although I know full well that you won't listen. Food grade manuka is not prepared using methods that are deemed safe by wound experts. The risk of introducing toxins that have been collected from the environment by the bees (healthy or otherwise) is slight, but it is a risk nonetheless, and not one that the majority of clinical professionals would be prepared to take. 
If you want to use it, that's fine - it's your choice, but it's irresponsible of you to present your opinions as fact. Saying "In my opinion, food grade is fine" wouldn't inspire such frustration in those of us who are employed by the veterinary/medical industry and are advocates of stringent hygiene protocols.


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## _GG_ (7 June 2016)

Manuka honey aside (and I am totally with Ester and Auslander and every highly renowned vet I know) I just want to put something out there for everyone...

This horse was home treated (poorly) for a few days before getting vet treatment. OP, I apologise, that isn't a dog at you, we all do things poorly until we learn a better way. Sudocrem should be a big no no for anything that is an open wound in my opinion as it does the exact opposite of what skin requires in order to heal (which is usually just cleanliness and time).

To everyone advocating further treatment with whatever...I really can't understand it. You're giving what might be great advice...but to someone you don't know for a wound you haven't seen on a horse that you are not qualified to diagnose. I find it highly irresponsible to offer any advice other than "get the vet back out". 

Coronet wounds can be really nasty, but they can also heal extremely quickly. My mare took a  decent chunk out of hers 3 years ago. 6 days later when the same vet had to come and put her to sleep for an unrelated injury, the coronet wound had granulated and was already forming new and healthy tissue. All we used was wound gel and careful cleaning. 

As others have said, if a wound isn't healing, there's a reason. Cleaning a wound isn't just hosing. Cleaning properly requires correct solutions, syringes and a great deal of care to open the wound, flush every part of it very thoroughly, shave the surrounding hair to avoid contamination and repeating this on a regular basis. Horses can try and kick your head off...so not many people do a proper job but it is worth it. Hosing can actually introduce infection by carrying dirt into the wound from above.

Seriously, the horse isn't healing, the wound is in a high risk site for further infection and we are all surely going to want what is best for this horse and the OP. I don't want the horse to have a prolonged recovery from this nor do I want the OP to have to spend more money and time than needed so for the sake of the horses welfare and the OP having peace of mind at doing the right thing, let's stop the guessing game and advise to get the vet back out. 

We owe it to our horses not to experiment on their wounds with things we've been told to do on Internet forums by people who haven't even seen a picture!


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## ester (7 June 2016)

phew, not just me then!


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## Casey76 (7 June 2016)

_GG_ said:



			Cleaning a wound isn't just hosing. Cleaning properly requires correct solutions, syringes and a great deal of care to open the wound, flush every part of it very thoroughly, shave the surrounding hair to avoid contamination and repeating this on a regular basis. Horses can try and kick your head off...so not many people do a proper job but it is worth it. Hosing can actually introduce infection by carrying dirt into the wound from above.
		
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People on my yard think I'm crazy when I initially clean a wound (small nicks and cuts, not needing vet treatment!) with a toothbrush (sterilized!), then use sterile gauze pads and sterile water for after care.  There is no way I would use our yard hosepipe for wound cleaning knowing how it's kept!  A breeding ground for all kinds of nasties.


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## Damnation (7 June 2016)

jnorman said:



			My TB gelding recently got injured in the field, I don't know how but when we brought him in there was a cut just above the hoof on the outside of his foreleg. It was a clean cut and wasn't hot so I hosed it and put some sudacream on then turned him out again. The next day it was hot and swelled up so we started giving him bute in his feed and bandaging it up. We stopped bandaging it after a few days and were hoping for the swelling to go down and a scar to form but it didn't do we called the vet and they gave us antibiotic. The swelling has gone down a bit now but it won't form a scar and the swelling hasn't completely gone down so I wanted to know if anyone had any advice on what to do? He is still getting bute and we put fly cream on it every day. Thanks!!
		
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For a wound that won't heal get the vet out. End of.

Don't use home remedies, don't faff about, get the vet back out. I would be seriously worried that the wound won't heal and investigating things like foreign bodies, cushings etc. Especially with the location of the wound.

I am completely with Auslander, Ester, and _GG_ on this one.


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## Auslander (7 June 2016)

Casey76 said:



			People on my yard think I'm crazy when I initially clean a wound (small nicks and cuts, not needing vet treatment!) with a toothbrush (sterilized!).
		
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Owww!! Syringing with weak saline is an effective way to clean a minor wound - toothbrushes are for teeth! I don't use anything to clean a wound that I wouldn't use on myself.


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## _GG_ (7 June 2016)

Oooh, a toothbrush would scare me but...I'm not afraid to scrub wounds that need it. Better than leaving stuff in and just the tiniest speck of dirt can mean trouble so whatever floats you'd boat, lol


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## Auslander (7 June 2016)

_GG_ said:



			Oooh, a toothbrush would scare me but...I'm not afraid to scrub wounds that need it. Better than leaving stuff in and just the tiniest speck of dirt can mean trouble so whatever floats you'd boat, lol 

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Irrigation is just as effective as scrubbing, and less likely to break down the wound bed though!


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## Damnation (7 June 2016)

A toothbrush.. good god..


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## stencilface (7 June 2016)

Casey76 said:



			People on my yard think I'm crazy when I initially clean a wound (small nicks and cuts, not needing vet treatment!) with a toothbrush (sterilized!), then use sterile gauze pads and sterile water for after care.  There is no way I would use our yard hosepipe for wound cleaning knowing how it's kept!  A breeding ground for all kinds of nasties.
		
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Does you horse have no immune system?  I'll be honest here, if my horse has a small nick or cut, they barely get a look! Generally they've scabbed by the time I see them, and if they've scabbed they get left. If they're bleeding they get a wash, and might get something on them (dermagel, fly cream depending on the day) but if it looks ok it gets left to do its thing. I don't use sterile pads to clean my cuts after all, and humans are positively disgusting!


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## _GG_ (7 June 2016)

Auslander said:



			Irrigation is just as effective as scrubbing, and less likely to break down the wound bed though!
		
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We'll yes...I'd never consider anything more than gauze to help shift a persistent bit of dirt...syringes are definitely the best way to go. Then again, if I need to go there, I'm doing it with a vet anyway. For me...if a wound needs that much cleaning, I want it looked at by qualified eyes and AB's given. I just don't and never will understand people who support guesswork with horses, let alone those who promote and advise what could be truly awful treatment options.

Manuka Honey (med grade only) can be brilliant, but used for too long or at the wrong time can make things worse for the horse, not better. 

OP...Google proud flesh or scraping away proud flesh...don't risk putting your horse in that position...or any other compromised positions by using trial and error. We have a legal duty to provide veterinary care for our animals and a wound not healing does fall under that.


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## Auslander (7 June 2016)

Wise words from days gone by.


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## _GG_ (7 June 2016)

Auslander said:



			Wise words from days gone by.





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I love this. Everyone is looking for the next miracle cure. ***Spoiler alert*** it's called skin!


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## Illusion100 (7 June 2016)

OP, sorry to hear that this wound isn't healing up (speaking from my own current wound drama lol!), so perhaps looking for the underlying cause is the next step forward, which would involve at least chatting to your Vet about it.

I keep a few bottles of homemade saline in my first aid kit and they are first thing to be used on wounds to clean them. Although, I'll admit after working with vets it's not often I get excited about a wound and often just leave them alone (provided the horse is otherwise fit and healthy) as fiddling with them too much can make things worse. 

I do think that if we are going to DIY minor wounds on own animals, it is worth using high quality products that are as sterile as possible, otherwise you are just risking introducing contaminants and potentially delaying/stressing the healing process. I'm not overly fond of Hibiscrub for wound cleaning unless it is done correctly as it can be quite damaging otherwise and I do like to use natural based products where appropriate.

The toothbrush idea has given me that awful sensation of hair growing on my teeth! If dirt isn't going to come out of a wound via flushing or applying a short term dressing then it's really only humane a Vet does it using some local anaesthetic, ouch otherwise and as said, it will damage and inflamme the tissue.

One story involving the owner using honey was quite a shocker. Poor horse had had a puncture wound to it's knee (which should have meant a same day vet call out at least) but it was left for a few days minimum. They then noticed it had started to swell significantly and were coldhosing it once a day then covering it in honey because the knee 'smelled infected'. They weren't wrong about that tbf but sadly the joint was so badly infected and the window of opportunity to treat was past, the only choice was to put her down. Poor mare was in agony.


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## _GG_ (7 June 2016)

Illusion100 said:



			One story involving the owner using honey was quite a shocker. Poor horse had had a puncture wound to it's knee (which should have meant a same day vet call out at least) but it was left for a few days minimum. They then noticed it had started to swell significantly and were coldhosing it once a day then covering it in honey because the knee 'smelled infected'. They weren't wrong about that tbf but sadly the joint was so badly infected and the window of opportunity to treat was past, the only choice was to put her down. Poor mare was in agony.
		
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I'd have reported the owner of that horse. I may not get many fans for saying it, but that is a perfect example of neglect. When most people think of neglect, they picture horses left starving in poor conditions. Neglect is also the failure to properly care for an animal or person. Condoning home treatment of a wound that is not healing is condoning neglect because, as horrible as it must be to hear, that is the hard truth of the matter. We all learn by experience and I'm sure the OP will learn some lessons here, to be honest, we should all be open to still learning what's best. 

I'd rather upset a person but know that a horse is going to get proper care than worry about offending someone and leaving a horse to be a guinea pig for trying home remedies advised by strangers on an internet forum!


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## Doormouse (7 June 2016)

Water from a tap is not as sterile as you would think.  In the future I would wash a cut with warm water and hibiscrub to eliminate any dirt or possible infection and use a dry dressing to cover for a few days to keep clean.

I would ring the vet again and probably get some more antibiotics. Once he has started on the antibiotics, keep the wound covered for a few days until a scab is beginning to form. Sudocrem is healing and can protect a wound from dirt but there are better healing creams on the market.


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## Tnavas (7 June 2016)

When my young horse put a leg through a wire fence he cut his leg just below the knee. The paddock had no stand pipe for a hose so I made a saline solution in a 4litre pump spray. 

The spray worked really well to flush out the wound.


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## ester (7 June 2016)

Doormouse said:



			Water from a tap is not as sterile as you would think.
		
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LOL it is not sterile at all, and shouldn't be going anywhere near open wounds IMO


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## applecart14 (7 June 2016)

_GG_ said:



			I'd have reported the owner of that horse. I may not get many fans for saying it, but that is a perfect example of neglect. When most people think of neglect, they picture horses left starving in poor conditions. Neglect is also the failure to properly care for an animal or person.
		
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To be honest I would call it ignorance, meaning "lacking knowledge or awareness" and not ignorance in the meaning "rude or bad mannered".

Agreed that people should know all about horses before embarking on the ownership of one, but as you are aware the subject is vast and owners cannot be assumed to know everything there is to know, I am sure they thought they were doing the correct thing.  I wouldn't call it neglect.

An example (both of which I have experience with, not personally);

Example A - a horse with a huge apron of skin hanging down from its chest to below its knees exposing the muscles following a freak accident in the field.
Example B - a small puncture wound over a joint barely visible to the human eye.

I know many horsey people who think that the worse scenario was example A and the horse would have to be PTS immediately, whereas B would carry more risk due to possible foreign body deep within the tissue or joint and obviously due to the risk of bacteria and resulting infection.

I remember at the yard I was at many years ago a mare took fright after getting her head stuck under a rope fixed to wooden posts concreted into the ground.  She bolted carrying the posts with her, broke two fences one of which was an old wooden five bar gate and ended up 1/4 mile way down the field with this huge gaping wound.  Everyone thought she would have to be shot on the spot.  As it was staples, box rest and riding very shortly afterwards worked very well and the mare went on to compete and all sorts with hardly any scarring.

Its easy to be judgemental on folks but maybe its not fair to judge when you don't know what the circumstances were and how obvious the signs were that the mare was in pain.


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## _GG_ (7 June 2016)

applecart14 said:



			To be honest I would call it ignorance, meaning "lacking knowledge or awareness" and not ignorance in the meaning "rude or bad mannered".

Agreed that people should know all about horses before embarking on the ownership of one, but as you are aware the subject is vast and owners cannot be assumed to know everything there is to know, I am sure they thought they were doing the correct thing.  I wouldn't call it neglect.

An example (both of which I have experience with, not personally);

Example A - a horse with a huge apron of skin hanging down from its chest to below its knees exposing the muscles following a freak accident in the field.
Example B - a small puncture wound over a joint barely visible to the human eye.

I know many horsey people who think that the worse scenario was example A and the horse would have to be PTS immediately.
		
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Agreed to a degree, but it's irrelevant. Ignorance is not a valid argument if you are over 16 or 18, can't remember the age. 

In my first post on this thread, I pointed out that I wasn't having a dig at the OP...we all have to learn. Preferably not on a live horse, but we do all have to learn. 

My issue is with people posting who frankly should know better. It's all well and good having confidence in your own knowledge, but to advise others, people you don't know, who don't seem as experienced to do the same as you is just mindlessly stupid. The definition of neglect is failure to provide care, end of. Haphazardly trying out suggestions from an Internet forum is not care...it's potentially harmful. 

We surely all just want this horse to heal as quickly as possible. Guesswork won't make that happen. Veterinary attention will.


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## ester (7 June 2016)

Quite, ignorance is no defence in life or in the eyes of the law even more so in the days of the internet.


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## applecart14 (7 June 2016)

_GG_ said:



			Haphazardly trying out suggestions from an Internet forum is not care...it's potentially harmful. 

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Agree with this, and in doubt I would always speak to my vet. Funnily enough I had this conversation with my friend on the yard recently about this very subject.  I am being steered in one direction by forum advice and yet this is contrary to what my vet is saying.

 Most people post what they have experienced, and I always try to do this.  I remember wishing I had advice from people I could talk to when I suspected my lovely horse had wobblers syndrome. It was one of the most traumatic periods of my life and I felt so helpless with no one to talk to and my vets going down an avenue that they shouldn't have gone down on a incorrect diagnosis which caused immeasurable suffering to my horse and resulted in him being PTS.  I have never forgotten that feeling and to be quite honest never will, even 12 years later it is fresh in my mind as a daisy and I remember every conversation and everything that passed as if it were yesterday and I still feel the hurt and the let down and dissapointment. 

 So this is why I like to come on this forum, to help people through the experiences I have had, which is what most people endeavor to do although there are some who are the exception to the rule and just use the forum for their own ends (don't mean you GG)!!  Just thought I'd better add a disclaimer.


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## ycbm (7 June 2016)

ester said:



			It needs to be gamma irradiated so that you don't risk the addition of potentially infective spores into the wound. I am a microbiologist, this is not debatable and it has nothing to do with the health of the bees! 
Is no one else seriously worried that this horse has had an infection for quite a few days now (specifics not given) that it hasn't been resolved and if becoming systemic in that leg is not going to bee resolved by some saline and animalintex!?!
		
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Yes, vet required!

The wound also sounds dangerously close to a lateral cartilage and if it creates a quittor by infecting it, this horse could be heading for an incinerator very soon.


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## applecart14 (7 June 2016)

ester said:



			Quite, ignorance is no defence in life or in the eyes of the law even more so in the days of the internet.
		
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I am sorry Ester, but you really do come across as a little, shall we say 'hard' so as not to sound rude.  Everyone makes mistakes in life, please don't say you have never made a genuine mistake with your horse???  I am sure there is something that you will have done that others won't have agree with or would have done differently.

No one is perfect.  Give people a break and try and find a little understanding, generosity and forgiveness.


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## ester (7 June 2016)

I think whether forum advice is taken/listened to does rather depend on the severity of the situation and the likely outcomes or taking it/not taking it. There are certain things you can mess around with/take a chance on more than others.
Ignorance is no defence in law that is fact not just my opinion and if you don't know or aren't sure you engage a professional to help you. I certainly haven't made any mistakes that have risked my horses life, health or soundness.


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## Dave's Mam (7 June 2016)

All it takes is a phone call.


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## _GG_ (7 June 2016)

Sharing ideas, experience and knowledge are key! Forums are great for that, I'm happy to share my own experience. What frustrates me is that some people will share their experience as fact. Usually in the belief that because something has worked fine for them, that it will work fine for others as well, but that's just not always going to be the case and it's not us who suffer for it, it's our horses. 

Not all vets are made equal either. We have a horse here who was written off for recurring lameness. He's lucky he has an owner who, despite spending more on him than some pay for a house...is happy to let him retire at a young age and just be a horse. Vet has said he's doing so well that he may actually be sound to hack and do low level work again one day. He never thought he'd utter those words about this horse, but he's a good enough vet to know that they can all get things wrong sometimes. Forums can also be a great place for people to learn how to question vets or other professionals, but it should never stop us turning to them.


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## Illusion100 (7 June 2016)

_GG_ said:



			I'd have reported the owner of that horse. I may not get many fans for saying it, but that is a perfect example of neglect. When most people think of neglect, they picture horses left starving in poor conditions. Neglect is also the failure to properly care for an animal or person. Condoning home treatment of a wound that is not healing is condoning neglect because, as horrible as it must be to hear, that is the hard truth of the matter. We all learn by experience and I'm sure the OP will learn some lessons here, to be honest, we should all be open to still learning what's best. 

I'd rather upset a person but know that a horse is going to get proper care than worry about offending someone and leaving a horse to be a guinea pig for trying home remedies advised by strangers on an internet forum!
		
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The amount of unintentional cases of the kind of neglect you refer to is so common it's frightening. There is always at least one yard 'expert' whom has apparently bred the Popes donkey, trained Mark Todd or has owned horses for 274 yrs and therefore their word can be taken as gospel, from using honey for infection, vaseline to work out imbedded straw from behing the eyeball, to peppermint tea and performing their own rectal exams for colic. Then there is the 'too many cooks will spoil the broth' scenario where practically everyone on the yard has poked grubby fingers into and around the wound, advised contradictory advice from the last person and the owner picks and chooses a new thing to try a couple of times a day, disaster. Honestly, at times if we could've have laughed we'd have cried. 

IRL, if asked my opinion on such a matter, I always respond 'Well if it were my horse, I would *advise initial first aid etc situation depending* and end with 'however with all things like this it is best to at least speak to your Vet asap about it and get their opinion' and if I'm not sure it's always 'I think you should call your Vet'. I don't mind offering an opinion but only where appropriate as I want to sleep easy that night and not wake up to find that my advice has caused complications and/or suffering to any animal. 

I understand your opinion re: reporting neglect in the previous case I described but sadly this would (well, has) deter people further from seeking Vet advise/assistance for fear of prosecution. Ultimately it is always best to encourage Vet involvement regardless of previous home treatments etc for the benefit of the animal, even if that results in euthansia rather than further suffering. It is hard not to be angry about ignorance/neglect but believe me, these people usually learn a very big lesson, very quickly, especially when at the end of the visit their horse is a corpse.


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## applecart14 (7 June 2016)

Illusion100 said:



			There is always at least one yard 'expert' whom has apparently bred the Popes donkey, trained Mark Todd or has owned horses for 274 yrs and therefore their word can be taken as gospel, from using honey for infection, vaseline to work out imbedded straw from behing the eyeball, to peppermint tea and performing their own rectal exams for colic.
		
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After watching my horse have three separate rectal examinations in four days a couple of weeks ago for splenic entrapment I cannot say that I would fancy that one!  The only surprise was how well my horse dealt with having an injection in his neck, a tube down his nose, a hand shoved up his a**e and taken for a 'bumpy' trailer ride all in the space of one hour repeated over the course of three days! I wonder horses really think of us - they must think we exhibit very bizarre behaviour 

Of course you get all sorts of advice (unwanted or not as the case may be) by yard people but all meant with good intentions. Sometimes its a case of separating the wheat from the chaff.


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## _GG_ (7 June 2016)

Illusion100 said:



			The amount of unintentional cases of the kind of neglect you refer to is so common it's frightening. There is always at least one yard 'expert' whom has apparently bred the Popes donkey, trained Mark Todd or has owned horses for 274 yrs and therefore their word can be taken as gospel, from using honey for infection, vaseline to work out imbedded straw from behing the eyeball, to peppermint tea and performing their own rectal exams for colic. Then there is the 'too many cooks will spoil the broth' scenario where practically everyone on the yard has poked grubby fingers into and around the wound, advised contradictory advice from the last person and the owner picks and chooses a new thing to try a couple of times a day, disaster. Honestly, at times if we could've have laughed we'd have cried. 

IRL, if asked my opinion on such a matter, I always respond 'Well if it were my horse, I would *advise initial first aid etc situation depending* and end with 'however with all things like this it is best to at least speak to your Vet asap about it and get their opinion' and if I'm not sure it's always 'I think you should call your Vet'. I don't mind offering an opinion but only where appropriate as I want to sleep easy that night and not wake up to find that my advice has caused complications and/or suffering to any animal. 

I understand your opinion re: reporting neglect in the previous case I described but sadly this would (well, has) deter people further from seeking Vet advise/assistance for fear of prosecution. Ultimately it is always best to encourage Vet involvement regardless of previous home treatments etc for the benefit of the animal, even if that results in euthansia rather than further suffering. It is hard not to be angry about ignorance/neglect but believe me, these people usually learn a very big lesson, very quickly, especially when at the end of the visit their horse is a corpse.
		
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I don't follow that last bit? I may be missing something but prosecution would only come for not getting vet attention. I don't understand why people would fear prosecution for seeking vet advice/care? If you mean, people would be afraid to call the vet after trying and failing to home treat, then I get it and it's  tricky one for sure. Definitely wouldn't want to discourage people from turning to their vets at any time...but at the same time, we shouldn't let it go that a horse has suffered either?

Yep, it's a tricky one, I see your point and am scratching my head! Not much is black and white is it?

I see Ester has been targeted for something a few people have said...not sure why she's been singled out, but I'll reiterate, there should always be a level of understanding, but ignorance is no excuse.


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## _GG_ (7 June 2016)

applecart14 said:



			After watching my horse have three separate rectal examinations in four days a couple of weeks ago for splenic entrapment I cannot say that I would fancy that one!  The only surprise was how well my horse dealt with having an injection in his neck, a tube down his nose, a hand shoved up his a**e and taken for a 'bumpy' trailer ride all in the space of one hour repeated over the course of three days! I wonder horses really think of us - they must think we exhibit very bizarre behaviour 

Of course you get all sorts of advice (unwanted or not as the case may be) by yard people but all meant with good intentions. Sometimes its a case of separating the wheat from the chaff.
		
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My rule of thumb is...if someone starts by saying things like, "check with your vet first", "I'm not sure but...", "I'm not qualified and you should check with someone who is but" usually are knowledgeable and trustworthy because they can admit they may not actually KNOW for certain. Anyone who says things like, "Yeah, it worked wonders on my horse, save yourself the call out charge", "I know what it is/what to do", "Ignore (insert qualified persons name) advice, I've been doing this for years" etc...should be wholly ignored in favour of those who are actually qualified to diagnose and help.

Every yard has one, it won't change, we all learn sooner or later who to trust and who to ignore.


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## applecart14 (7 June 2016)

_GG_ said:



			My rule of thumb is...if someone starts by saying things like, "check with your vet first", "I'm not sure but...", "I'm not qualified and you should check with someone who is but" usually are knowledgeable and trustworthy because they can admit they may not actually KNOW for certain. Anyone who says things like, "Yeah, it worked wonders on my horse, save yourself the call out charge", "I know what it is/what to do", "Ignore (insert qualified persons name) advice, I've been doing this for years" etc...should be wholly ignored in favour of those who are actually qualified to diagnose and help.

Every yard has one, it won't change, we all learn sooner or later who to trust and who to ignore. 

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Gosh I am not disagreeing at all with you _GG_ but I wouldn't think about all that in that detail....  I would just say "I did XY and Z and it worked for me".  Not "I did XY and Z and it worked for me but I am not a qualified person".  

By the time I get to the yard after a busy day I am wiped out anyway without having to work out how to rephrase every sentence so it sounds 'correct' or to add a disclaimer to it. I guess I get straight to the point without going 'around the houses'.  Bit lazy in structuring sentences but certainly never claimed to be something I am not (although I would probably be rich if I were a vet the amount I've given mine over the last 12 years) 

If my horse has a problem (where he is not on his back with legs in air/standing on three legs) I like to step back, watch my horse, assess the situation, watch his symptoms, take notes for the vet and then ascertain whether I actually need the vet in a calm manner. It could take seconds to reach a conclusion, or it could take longer depending on what the problem is.  Although I am conscious of vet=cost I also know that I have a responsibility to the animal and that takes precedence.  I assume that this is what most people with a brain do. 

I also assume that some people come on this forum hoping to avoid vets bills.  If this is for minor things then they are justified I guess.  I wouldn't think it was right if someone said "I've just spent an hour bringing my horse in from the field, as he is on three legs but I thought I'd come on here and ask what you think I should do before/if I call the vet out".

This is an interesting discussion.


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## _GG_ (7 June 2016)

applecart14 said:



			Gosh I am not disagreeing at all with you _GG_ but I wouldn't think about all that in that detail....  I would just say "I did XY and Z and it worked for me".  Not "I did XY and Z and it worked for me but I am not a qualified person".  

By the time I get to the yard after a busy day I am wiped out anyway without having to work out how to rephrase every sentence so it sounds 'correct' or to add a disclaimer to it. I guess I get straight to the point without going 'around the houses'.  Bit lazy in structuring sentences but certainly never claimed to be something I am not (although I would probably be rich if I were a vet the amount I've given mine over the last 12 years) 

If my horse has a problem (where he is not on his back with legs in air/standing on three legs) I like to step back, watch my horse, assess the situation, watch his symptoms, take notes for the vet and then ascertain whether I actually need the vet in a calm manner. It could take seconds to reach a conclusion, or it could take longer depending on what the problem is.  Although I am conscious of vet=cost I also know that I have a responsibility to the animal and that takes precedence.  I assume that this is what most people with a brain do. 

I also assume that some people come on this forum hoping to avoid vets bills.  If this is for minor things then they are justified I guess.  I wouldn't think it was right if someone said "I've just spent an hour bringing my horse in from the field, as he is on three legs but I thought I'd come on here and ask what you think I should do before/if I call the vet out".

This is an interesting discussion.
		
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Yeah it is. It's not that much work though. We all know them. Put simply, those who give advice as fact and won't hear other opinions should be ignored...those who can admit they don't know it all can largely be trusted.


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## Illusion100 (7 June 2016)

_GG_ said:



			I don't follow that last bit? I may be missing something but prosecution would only come for not getting vet attention. I don't understand why people would fear prosecution for seeking vet advice/care? If you mean, people would be afraid to call the vet after trying and failing to home treat, then I get it and it's  tricky one for sure. Definitely wouldn't want to discourage people from turning to their vets at any time...but at the same time, we shouldn't let it go that a horse has suffered either?

Yep, it's a tricky one, I see your point and am scratching my head! Not much is black and white is it?

I see Ester has been targeted for something a few people have said...not sure why she's been singled out, but I'll reiterate, there should always be a level of understanding, but ignorance is no excuse.
		
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Oh, are we picking on Ester?! Yeah well Ester, she always picks on my piccy taking skills, she's such a biaaatch! There is no excuse for her ignorance, why can't she just accept that I'm cr@p at it?! 

Here's a good one, a VERY novice owner that doesn't even know the symptoms of colic, for example, is the President of a local riding club and is therefore looked up to for advice. The mind boggles. 

Anyway, back to what you were saying! I think we have many scenarios so I'll express a few examples, novices that don't understand symptoms/injuries at all and dont recognise they could/are an issue, novices that trust the advice of people who don't know what they're talking about, experienced owners knowing they have a problem and insist on home tx/not involving vet until there is no hope and horse then disposed of by hunt no questions asked and my least fave, people who've tried home tx, failed miserably, got vet out, then continued to ignore vet advice or decide to put it down themselves. 

I suppose my point is that genuine but ignorant owners that make mistakes are very different than those that know better and do it anyway. If it is any consolation the ones that knowingly cause suffering/neglect (certainly in any scenario I've been involved with) have had their horses seized permenantly sooner or later. As for prosecution, that wasn't so much up to the vet but the rescue so we never really got to know what happened after the horse/pony was PTS or treated and travelled to rescue.

All I know is that if there is a fool proof solution to everything scenario that anyone can fix at home, then why do Vets even exist?!


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## Illusion100 (7 June 2016)

applecart14 said:



			After watching my horse have three separate rectal examinations in four days a couple of weeks ago for splenic entrapment I cannot say that I would fancy that one!  The only surprise was how well my horse dealt with having an injection in his neck, a tube down his nose, a hand shoved up his a**e and taken for a 'bumpy' trailer ride all in the space of one hour repeated over the course of three days! I wonder horses really think of us - they must think we exhibit very bizarre behaviour 

Of course you get all sorts of advice (unwanted or not as the case may be) by yard people but all meant with good intentions. Sometimes its a case of separating the wheat from the chaff.
		
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He sounds like a super patient and one that is always very pleasant to have to work with under those conditions!  

It is suprising how well the vast majority cope with such invasive treatment. Put us humans to shame really. Fine, they put me to shame at least!


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## ester (7 June 2016)

well I presumed you were only here because of your current experience of non-healing limbs 

and don't whinge, you should see the instructions/complaints I make on hoof pic threads


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## Wagtail (7 June 2016)

If a wound is small and scabbed over, I leave it (unless it's over a joint). If it isn't scabbed over I clean it and spray with anticeptic or squirted with wound powder. If they do not heal up then I get the vet, although depending on various factors (whether I think it's infected, where the wound is, size of the wound etc) I may poultice it. In the case of what the OP has described then I probably would have poulticed it.


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## Illusion100 (7 June 2016)

ester said:



			well I presumed you were only here because of your current experience of non-healing limbs 

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Makes me the most qualified person on this topic, I reckon?! 

Yeah, was actually hoping for some wondercure but alas, Docs it is *sigh* Although, after an interesting day on Sat, wonky finger is either finally starting to get better or metamorphosing. Sadly my odds are on the latter.....


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## applecart14 (7 June 2016)

Illusion100 said:



			He sounds like a super patient and one that is always very pleasant to have to work with under those conditions!  

It is suprising how well the vast majority cope with such invasive treatment. Put us humans to shame really. Fine, they put me to shame at least! 

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He is very good.  He had the last rectal examination without sedation. He also had his coffin joints injected and PRP in his suspensory branch without sedation too from what I recall.  He has what I call an anxious eye when his eyelid creases but I try not to feel sorry for him too much as I don't want him to feed off me or become anxious.  The other week when he had his SE I honestly thought it was _THE COLIC_ that I had been dreading all these years and I would lose him as he was in so much pain. I thought it was bound to be a surgical route which would have been a no no, my heart was hammering and my legs were like jelly so he probably knows anyway how I feel although I disguise it!!


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## JFTDWS (7 June 2016)

ester said:



			Quite, ignorance is no defence in life or in the eyes of the law even more so in the days of the internet.
		
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There is no sin but ignorance...

Particularly wilful ignorance of those who refuse to see that just because something hasn't happened to them yet, doesn't mean it never will...


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## _GG_ (7 June 2016)

Illusion100 said:



			Oh, are we picking on Ester?! Yeah well Ester, she always picks on my piccy taking skills, she's such a biaaatch! There is no excuse for her ignorance, why can't she just accept that I'm cr@p at it?! 

Here's a good one, a VERY novice owner that doesn't even know the symptoms of colic, for example, is the President of a local riding club and is therefore looked up to for advice. The mind boggles. 

Anyway, back to what you were saying! I think we have many scenarios so I'll express a few examples, novices that don't understand symptoms/injuries at all and dont recognise they could/are an issue, novices that trust the advice of people who don't know what they're talking about, experienced owners knowing they have a problem and insist on home tx/not involving vet until there is no hope and horse then disposed of by hunt no questions asked and my least fave, people who've tried home tx, failed miserably, got vet out, then continued to ignore vet advice or decide to put it down themselves. 

I suppose my point is that genuine but ignorant owners that make mistakes are very different than those that know better and do it anyway. If it is any consolation the ones that knowingly cause suffering/neglect (certainly in any scenario I've been involved with) have had their horses seized permenantly sooner or later. As for prosecution, that wasn't so much up to the vet but the rescue so we never really got to know what happened after the horse/pony was PTS or treated and travelled to rescue.

All I know is that if there is a fool proof solution to everything scenario that anyone can fix at home, then why do Vets even exist?!
		
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Indeed. A very much sought after vet was out to one of the liveries last week. He's now come on board as one of our yard vets (which I'm still pinching myself about) but he was fab. He totally understood why I wanted him to see the horse, but basically said, keep doing what you're doing, keep him in for two weeks to be safe and to trust my judgement because he does. Won't stop me calling though. £60 for peace of mind is worth it every time to me. I called him this morning to give an update on the horse and say I think he'd be better off back out now, 100% sound, no longer soft (sole) and did he want to check him over first. He said, "if you think he can go out, I'm not going to question that, laughed at me and told me to get on with it. lol.


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## applecart14 (7 June 2016)

JFTD said:



			There is no sin but ignorance...

Particularly wilful ignorance of those who refuse to see that just because something hasn't happened to them yet, doesn't mean it never will...
		
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But you could say the same about any scenario.  I could say to you, "you are not wearing an air jacket in your siggy when you are jumping".  You could say "Well I won't fall off".  I could say "Well you are silly because I fell off and I know loads of people that have fallen off and we had air jackets on so we were alright but you won't be if you fall off".  That is my perspective.  If is my opinion.  It is not fact that you WILL fall off anymore than it is fact that if I fall off wearing an air jacket I WON'T hurt myself.  Its just my opinion.  If you did fall off and hurt yourself I wouldn't then say "well you were willfully ignorant for not listening to me"!  I wouldn't look down on you!  

The woman (whoever it was) in the story about the horse with the gammy knee.  It was just her way of doing things.  She didn't know any better, she hadn't  the knowledge.  She made a mistake and her horse paid the price, but ultimately she paid a heavy price too and like someone said, a lesson learned the hard way. She wasn't being intentionally cruel. Whilst everyone on here (not being nasty when I say this) talks about her like she is the lowest form of life, I actually feel very sorry for her.

PS I don't wear an airjacket in my siggy, just in case you think I am picking on you. I hadn't bought it then but I wear it everyday now


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## JFTDWS (7 June 2016)

There's a flaw in your logic, AC14.  There is empirical evidence that medical grade honey is safer than non-medical grade (I didn't actually aim that comment at the OP).  There is no empirical data to support the use of air jackets, and the plural of your anecdotes is not data.  The two concepts are not remotely comparable, purely on the basis of scientific reasoning.


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## _GG_ (7 June 2016)

applecart14 said:



			But you could say the same about any scenario.  I could say to you, "you are not wearing an air jacket in your siggy when you are jumping".  You could say "Well I won't fall off".  I could say "Well you are silly because I fell off and I know loads of people that have fallen off and we had air jackets on so we were alright but you won't be if you fall off".  That is my perspective.  If is my opinion.  It is not fact that you WILL fall off anymore than it is fact that if I fall off wearing an air jacket I WON'T hurt myself.  Its just my opinion.  If you did fall off and hurt yourself I wouldn't then say "well you were willfully ignorant for not listening to me"!  I wouldn't look down on you!  

The woman (whoever it was) in the story about the horse with the gammy knee.  It was just her way of doing things.  She didn't know any better, she hadn't  the knowledge.  She made a mistake and her horse paid the price, but ultimately she paid a heavy price too and like someone said, a lesson learned the hard way. She wasn't being intentionally cruel. Whilst everyone on here (not being nasty when I say this) talks about her like she is the lowest form of life, I actually feel very sorry for her.

PS I don't wear an airjacket in my siggy, just in case you think I am picking on you. I hadn't bought it then but I wear it everyday now 

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JFTD said:



			There's a flaw in your logic, AC14.  There is empirical evidence that medical grade honey is safer than non-medical grade (I didn't actually aim that comment at the OP).  There is no empirical data to support the use of air jackets, and the plural of your anecdotes is not data.  The two concepts are not remotely comparable, purely on the basis of scientific reasoning.
		
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There's a bigger flaw than that JFTD. In AC14's scenario, you'd be making a decision on your own welfare, which you are perfectly within your rights to do. What the thread is about is people making choices on behalf of an animal that can't make the decisions for itself. It's a position of responsibility to an animal, so a point made about what risks we, as humans choose to take is irrelevant.


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## applecart14 (7 June 2016)

_GG_ said:



			There's a bigger flaw than that JFTD. In AC14's scenario, you'd be making a decision on your own welfare, which you are perfectly within your rights to do. What the thread is about is people making choices on behalf of an animal that can't make the decisions for itself. It's a position of responsibility to an animal, so a point made about what risks we, as humans choose to take is irrelevant.
		
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Gosh JFTD have you swallowed a dictionary for your lunch?  Yeah well it wasn't the best example but I thought you might have caught my drift.  Anyway I will retire now that I can add illogical thinking to my list of missdemeanours (and bad spelling is another one too by the looks of it).  Gosh its a wonder I don't get PTS myself.

Tell you what we do have which is nice at our yard.  A sign on the tack room door that simply says "if you can't be nice go home".  I like that.


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## JFTDWS (7 June 2016)

_GG_ said:



			There's a bigger flaw than that JFTD. In AC14's scenario, you'd be making a decision on your own welfare, which you are perfectly within your rights to do. What the thread is about is people making choices on behalf of an animal that can't make the decisions for itself. It's a position of responsibility to an animal, so a point made about what risks we, as humans choose to take is irrelevant.
		
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I would have made that point, but I figured that I'd be opening the old "burden on the NHS", "it's not just you who'll suffer for your lackadaisical attitude to health and safety" can of worms...  And I'm way too lazy for that...


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## _GG_ (7 June 2016)

applecart14 said:



			Yeah well it wasn't the best example but I thought you might have caught my drift.  Anyway I will retire now that I can add illogical thinking to my list of missdemeanours (and bad spelling is another one too by the looks of it).  

Tell you what we do have which is nice at our yard.  A sign that says "if you can't be nice go home".  I like that.
		
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Yeah, I knew...just enjoying a little afternoon banter. I think we've probably derailed the thread enough to be fair, but agree...it's been an interesting discussion. 

I too like the sounds of that sign...I have a few ready to go up around here...my favourite being, "If you think you know it all, sell your horse and buy a My Little Pony" I made it a few months ago


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## applecart14 (7 June 2016)

_GG_ said:



			Yeah, I knew...just enjoying a little afternoon banter. I think we've probably derailed the thread enough to be fair, but agree...it's been an interesting discussion. 

I too like the sounds of that sign...I have a few ready to go up around here...my favourite being, "If you think you know it all, sell your horse and buy a My Little Pony" I made it a few months ago 

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My fav is "you never stop learning with horses".  Too true.


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## JFTDWS (7 June 2016)

The best sign I have is simply: 

"*KEEP OUT*"

Because I have a private yard and I'd rather not have to deal with other people, no matter how nice they're trying to be.  But I am a self confessed grumpy git.


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## ester (7 June 2016)

I don't think JFTD used any particularly long or complicated words?


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## JFTDWS (7 June 2016)

ester said:



			I don't think JFTD used any particularly long or complicated words?
		
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I did quote Marlowe upthread though.  I definitely think that earns me the "pretentious knob of the thread" award.  As usual...


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## NeilDePlume (7 June 2016)

Looking through the post and suggestions good and appalling. Can I ask a few questions as your info is scant. Wound healing is a natural process that follows a path only halted by infection or intervention (usually well meaning?? usually Human). Something has compromised this process
What phase is the wound at? (Inflammatory phase, Proliferation phase, Maturation phase). I guess the middle one?.
A picture would be helpful if you dont know. 
Is it exudating /granulating or looking like a cheesy Pizza?
What dressing are you using? For how long? 
What do you do to the wound between dressing changes? 
Do you clean with Saline or Hibiscrub type?
What the active ingredient in the fly cream ?
Gentle lavage with sterile saline is best - Chemical skin cleansers wash away the Fibroblasts. (Fibroblasts are critical in supporting normal wound healing, involved in key processes such as creating new extra cellular matrix and collagen structures to support the other cells).. Why when you have the scaffolding for skin and capillary growth would you scub them away with chemical cleanser and or a toothbrush!!!! ( this is Forrest Gump DVM)
Manuka honey fits well as a dressing but so do many other. Manuka can be used to debride also! Keep it moist, that works!!! Simple Hydrogel and foam may often suffice. Others do not work and should not be mixed. Animal lintex should not really be used with honey it effects the glucose oxidase action and reduces the action, slowing the process. Personally I would question if it should be used at all? There are many papers on the use of Boric acid- Boric Acid Published Online: 31 JAN 2012 -DOI: 10.1002/3527600418.mb1004335kske0005 Boric acid should not be allowed to come into contact with open wounds, damaged skin or, in particular, granulation tissue.  Application of boric acid to healthy skin does not cause toxic effects. However, intoxications, some of which were lethal, have been described after application to damaged skin, especially to granulation tissue. Animalintex Poultice Ingredient % by Wt -Cotton Wadding -62 - 75 % by Wt - Tragacanth Gum -11 - 13 % by Wt - Boric Acid -3 - 5 % by Wt - Polyethylene- 5 % by Wt.

On the whole the natural healing process will continue (ex of infection); it can be simply aided or it can be impaired by intervention of the wrong type. If its not healing, ask yourself what have we done to interfere it. Not what is the magical fix and cure-all, fancy light bulb on a string, there isnt one!!!


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## _GG_ (7 June 2016)

NeilDePlume said:



			Looking through the post and suggestions good and appalling. Can I ask a few questions as your info is scant. Wound healing is a natural process that follows a path only halted by infection or intervention (usually well meaning?? usually Human). Something has compromised this process
What phase is the wound at? (Inflammatory phase, Proliferation phase, Maturation phase). I guess the middle one?.
A picture would be helpful if you don&#8217;t know. 
Is it exudating /granulating or looking like a cheesy Pizza?
What dressing are you using? For how long? 
What do you do to the wound between dressing changes? 
Do you clean with Saline or Hibiscrub type?
What the active ingredient in the fly cream ?
Gentle lavage with sterile saline is best - Chemical skin cleanser&#8217;s wash away the Fibroblasts. (Fibroblasts are critical in supporting normal wound healing, involved in key processes such as creating new extra cellular matrix and collagen structures to support the other cells)&#8230;.. Why when you have the scaffolding for skin and capillary growth would you &#8220;scub&#8221; them away with chemical cleanser and or a toothbrush!!!! ( this is Forrest Gump DVM)
Manuka honey fits well as a dressing but so do many other. Manuka can be used to debride also! Keep it moist, that works!!! Simple Hydrogel and foam may often suffice. Others do not work and should not be mixed. Animal lintex should not really be used with honey it effects the glucose oxidase action and reduces the action, slowing the process. Personally I would question if it should be used at all? There are many papers on the use of Boric acid- Boric Acid Published Online: 31 JAN 2012 -DOI: 10.1002/3527600418.mb1004335kske0005 &#8220;Boric acid should not be allowed to come into contact with open wounds, damaged skin or, in particular, granulation tissue.&#8221; &#8211; &#8220;Application of boric acid to healthy skin does not cause toxic effects. However, intoxications, some of which were lethal, have been described after application to damaged skin, especially to granulation tissue&#8221;. Animalintex Poultice Ingredient % by Wt -Cotton Wadding -62 - 75 % by Wt - Tragacanth Gum -11 - 13 % by Wt - Boric Acid -3 - 5 % by Wt - Polyethylene- 5 % by Wt.

On the whole the natural healing process will continue (ex of infection); it can be simply aided or it can be impaired by intervention of the wrong type. If it&#8217;s not healing, ask yourself what have we done to interfere it. Not what is the magical fix and cure-all, fancy light bulb on a string, there isn&#8217;t one!!!
		
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Welcome to the forum. That's an impressive first post!


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## Illusion100 (7 June 2016)

NeilDePlume said:



			Looking through the post and suggestions good and appalling. Can I ask a few questions as your info is scant. Wound healing is a natural process that follows a path only halted by infection or intervention (usually well meaning?? usually Human). Something has compromised this process
What phase is the wound at? (Inflammatory phase, Proliferation phase, Maturation phase). I guess the middle one?.
A picture would be helpful if you don&#8217;t know. 
Is it exudating /granulating or looking like a cheesy Pizza?
What dressing are you using? For how long? 
What do you do to the wound between dressing changes? 
Do you clean with Saline or Hibiscrub type?
What the active ingredient in the fly cream ?
Gentle lavage with sterile saline is best - Chemical skin cleanser&#8217;s wash away the Fibroblasts. (Fibroblasts are critical in supporting normal wound healing, involved in key processes such as creating new extra cellular matrix and collagen structures to support the other cells)&#8230;.. Why when you have the scaffolding for skin and capillary growth would you &#8220;scub&#8221; them away with chemical cleanser and or a toothbrush!!!! ( this is Forrest Gump DVM)
Manuka honey fits well as a dressing but so do many other. Manuka can be used to debride also! Keep it moist, that works!!! Simple Hydrogel and foam may often suffice. Others do not work and should not be mixed. Animal lintex should not really be used with honey it effects the glucose oxidase action and reduces the action, slowing the process. Personally I would question if it should be used at all? There are many papers on the use of Boric acid- Boric Acid Published Online: 31 JAN 2012 -DOI: 10.1002/3527600418.mb1004335kske0005 &#8220;Boric acid should not be allowed to come into contact with open wounds, damaged skin or, in particular, granulation tissue.&#8221; &#8211; &#8220;Application of boric acid to healthy skin does not cause toxic effects. However, intoxications, some of which were lethal, have been described after application to damaged skin, especially to granulation tissue&#8221;. Animalintex Poultice Ingredient % by Wt -Cotton Wadding -62 - 75 % by Wt - Tragacanth Gum -11 - 13 % by Wt - Boric Acid -3 - 5 % by Wt - Polyethylene- 5 % by Wt.

On the whole the natural healing process will continue (ex of infection); it can be simply aided or it can be impaired by intervention of the wrong type. If it&#8217;s not healing, ask yourself what have we done to interfere it. Not what is the magical fix and cure-all, fancy light bulb on a string, there isn&#8217;t one!!!
		
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Welcome to the forum.  

I'll send you pics of my wonky non-healing finger if you like, would be something else to get your teeth into! You might save me umpteen appointments, refferals and the exhaustion of running around in circles.....


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## NeilDePlume (7 June 2016)

My P.S is if you don't know ,don't understand the long words or its not personal enough SEEK advice from a professional !!!


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## NeilDePlume (7 June 2016)

Be great to see are you overly presenting your middle finger in certain circumstances and its becoming stressed?....


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## Illusion100 (7 June 2016)

NeilDePlume said:



			Be great to see are you overly presenting your middle finger in certain circumstances and its becoming stressed?....
		
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One can never over present ones middle finger to the point of stress in any circumstance, don't be ridiculous.

Pages 1 & 6 for most recent pics, however there was never a wound to begin with, it just appeared and digressed. I shall expect a magicwondercureitall promptly! 

https://forums-secure.horseandhound...33-Ok-NOW-it-s-infected-and-it-s-gross!/page6


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## BethH (7 June 2016)

I'd use manuka honey on that too!!!!!

Sorry couldn't resist!


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## Auslander (7 June 2016)

NeilDePlume said:



			Looking through the post and suggestions good and appalling. Can I ask a few questions as your info is scant. Wound healing is a natural process that follows a path only halted by infection or intervention (usually well meaning?? usually Human). Something has compromised this process
What phase is the wound at? (Inflammatory phase, Proliferation phase, Maturation phase). I guess the middle one?.
A picture would be helpful if you don&#8217;t know. 
Is it exudating /granulating or looking like a cheesy Pizza?
What dressing are you using? For how long? 
What do you do to the wound between dressing changes? 
Do you clean with Saline or Hibiscrub type?
What the active ingredient in the fly cream ?
Gentle lavage with sterile saline is best - Chemical skin cleanser&#8217;s wash away the Fibroblasts. (Fibroblasts are critical in supporting normal wound healing, involved in key processes such as creating new extra cellular matrix and collagen structures to support the other cells)&#8230;.. Why when you have the scaffolding for skin and capillary growth would you &#8220;scub&#8221; them away with chemical cleanser and or a toothbrush!!!! ( this is Forrest Gump DVM)
Manuka honey fits well as a dressing but so do many other. Manuka can be used to debride also! Keep it moist, that works!!! Simple Hydrogel and foam may often suffice. Others do not work and should not be mixed. Animal lintex should not really be used with honey it effects the glucose oxidase action and reduces the action, slowing the process. Personally I would question if it should be used at all? There are many papers on the use of Boric acid- Boric Acid Published Online: 31 JAN 2012 -DOI: 10.1002/3527600418.mb1004335kske0005 &#8220;Boric acid should not be allowed to come into contact with open wounds, damaged skin or, in particular, granulation tissue.&#8221; &#8211; &#8220;Application of boric acid to healthy skin does not cause toxic effects. However, intoxications, some of which were lethal, have been described after application to damaged skin, especially to granulation tissue&#8221;. Animalintex Poultice Ingredient % by Wt -Cotton Wadding -62 - 75 % by Wt - Tragacanth Gum -11 - 13 % by Wt - Boric Acid -3 - 5 % by Wt - Polyethylene- 5 % by Wt.

On the whole the natural healing process will continue (ex of infection); it can be simply aided or it can be impaired by intervention of the wrong type. If it&#8217;s not healing, ask yourself what have we done to interfere it. Not what is the magical fix and cure-all, fancy light bulb on a string, there isn&#8217;t one!!!
		
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Show off!


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## NeilDePlume (7 June 2016)

Yum . Would need some personal info ,prob off air > May appear stupid question do you have , Sheep /Lambs or have you been in close contact prior??


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## Illusion100 (7 June 2016)

NeilDePlume said:



			Yum . Would need some personal info ,prob off air > May appear stupid question do you have , Sheep /Lambs or have you been in close contact prior??
		
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Think I know where you are going with this one re: sheep but nope, not that!


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## _GG_ (7 June 2016)

Illusion100 said:



			Think I know where you are going with this one re: sheep but nope, not that!
		
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Haha, please start a new thread and do this in public....PLEASE


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## Illusion100 (7 June 2016)

_GG_ said:



			Haha, please start a new thread and do this in public....PLEASE 

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Hahaha, I've already mentioned it before on one of the threads, means I could be accused by those with an active imagination of being 'Welsh'!


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## Auslander (7 June 2016)

Illusion100 said:



			Hahaha, I've already mentioned it before on one of the threads, means I could be accused by those with an active imagination of being 'Welsh'!  

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Try being half Welsh/half Kiwi- the jokes are neverending!


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## Illusion100 (7 June 2016)

NeilDePlume said:



			Yum . Would need some personal info ,prob off air > May appear stupid question do you have , Sheep /Lambs or have you been in close contact prior??
		
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Sent you a private message regarding finger weirdness.


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## Illusion100 (7 June 2016)

Auslander said:



			Try being half Welsh/half Kiwi- the jokes are neverending!
		
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Bet they are!


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## jnorman (7 June 2016)

I have just read through all the comments and am glad to say, I had a good look at the cut today (I have been every day but got an experienced friend to look at it too) and it has begun to heal and form a scab. The swelling has gone down too but I am still giving him bute and will wait until he is fully sound before riding him again so it doesn't come open again. He is also in the stable for most of the day atm so isn't walking around too much, which I am hoping will reduce the risk of it opening again. Those comments were very interesting and I have learnt lessons from them so thank you!!


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## PolarSkye (7 June 2016)

_GG_ said:



			I'd rather upset a person but know that a horse is going to get proper care than worry about offending someone and leaving a horse to be a guinea pig for trying home remedies advised by strangers on an internet forum!
		
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This.

P


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## _GG_ (7 June 2016)

jnorman said:



			I have just read through all the comments and am glad to say, I had a good look at the cut today (I have been every day but got an experienced friend to look at it too) and it has begun to heal and form a scab. The swelling has gone down too but I am still giving him bute and will wait until he is fully sound before riding him again so it doesn't come open again. He is also in the stable for most of the day atm so isn't walking around too much, which I am hoping will reduce the risk of it opening again. Those comments were very interesting and I have learnt lessons from them so thank you!!
		
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That's a great update!


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## PolarSkye (7 June 2016)

jnorman said:



			I have just read through all the comments and am glad to say, I had a good look at the cut today (I have been every day but got an experienced friend to look at it too) and it has begun to heal and form a scab. The swelling has gone down too but I am still giving him bute and will wait until he is fully sound before riding him again so it doesn't come open again. He is also in the stable for most of the day atm so isn't walking around too much, which I am hoping will reduce the risk of it opening again. Those comments were very interesting and I have learnt lessons from them so thank you!!
		
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OP - well done for taking comments on board and I'm really happy (for you) that the swelling has gone down) but, bute is an anti-inflammatory, not an antibiotic.  Next time, please don't self treat and get the vet out . . . if you don't, you could have a different outcome.

If you have a good relationship with your vet and don't want to pay for a call out, you could even take a pic and send to him/her . . . but please don't self diagnose. 

P


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## Illusion100 (7 June 2016)

jnorman said:



			I have just read through all the comments and am glad to say, I had a good look at the cut today (I have been every day but got an experienced friend to look at it too) and it has begun to heal and form a scab. The swelling has gone down too but I am still giving him bute and will wait until he is fully sound before riding him again so it doesn't come open again. He is also in the stable for most of the day atm so isn't walking around too much, which I am hoping will reduce the risk of it opening again. Those comments were very interesting and I have learnt lessons from them so thank you!!
		
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Good news. 

Hopefully he'll be all healed up in no time.


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## ester (7 June 2016)

thanks for the update OP


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## applecart14 (8 June 2016)

ester said:



			I don't think JFTD used any particularly long or complicated words?
		
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Now there is a surprise. But don't forget I am thick as pig s**t and not worthy of being in the realm of being considered an interesting, kind and considerate person with feelings. My opinion counts for nothing, NOTHING I repeat!!!


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## ester (8 June 2016)

You didn't really consider that JFTD might be a kind, considerate person with feelings when you suggested she had swallowed a dictionary, because of course only here could being erudite be a bad thing, I honestly couldn't see where she has used any words not in daily use for most people though if you would like to clarify feel free.


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## applecart14 (8 June 2016)

ester said:



			You didn't really consider that JFTD might be a kind, considerate person with feelings when you suggested she had swallowed a dictionary, because of course only here could being erudite be a bad thing, I honestly couldn't see where she has used any words not in daily use for most people though if you would like to clarify feel free.
		
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Oh for goodness sake Ester it was meant in jest and I am sure JFTD understood that, she is not a child. Like I said about adding illogical thinking to my list of missdemeanours and bad spelling too, and its a wonder I don't get PTS. I was being light hearted, do try it sometime.

Lighten up a little.  Give people the benefit of the doubt.  Stop being so stuffy and proper and correct all the time.  And critical.  I wonder why you dislike me so hugely????


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## ester (8 June 2016)

Oh good, maybe you needed to add some smilies? or an ! or two to indicate your jest, that is usual on internet media.

I don't dislike you at all, it is only in your imagination. I don't dislike anyone I don't actually know.


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## JFTDWS (8 June 2016)

Perhaps you too need to lighten up, AC.  It didn't seem very jokey to me - not that I give a flying fig about whether you think I use long words or not, or whether you have low self esteem or not.  Ester possibly takes things more literally than you, for her own reasons - it's not very nice to get so worked up about the fact she doesn't see your joke (which, FTR, I don't either).

Not trying to get at you, but Ester has been very open about herself on this forum and it's not hard to work out why she might miss the jovial nature of the comments, which you intended.  It's nothing to do with being stuffy, correct and critical.


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## ester (8 June 2016)

For the same reasons I am a single, 'so-called' intellectual   .
Tis true, I don't get subtext in real life let alone over a computer screen without smilies to indicate intent, especially when people are talking to those they have been less than convivial with previously. It would be a bit odd/clumpy to use the RL technique of saying 'err how did you mean that?' Every time someone posts though.


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## JFTDWS (8 June 2016)

I have to stare at people intently if I'm to have any hope of accurately working out if they're joking or being bitchy.  And half the time, I get that wrong  

There are downsides to being "so-called intellectuals"!  Not to being single though.  That's totally awesome


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## applecart14 (8 June 2016)

JFTD said:



			Perhaps you too need to lighten up, AC.  It didn't seem very jokey to me - not that I give a flying fig about whether you think I use long words or not, or whether you have low self esteem or not.  Ester possibly takes things more literally than you, for her own reasons - it's not very nice to get so worked up about the fact she doesn't see your joke (which, FTR, I don't either).

Not trying to get at you, but Ester has been very open about herself on this forum and it's not hard to work out why she might miss the jovial nature of the comments, which you intended.  It's nothing to do with being stuffy, correct and critical.
		
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Whatever.........I think you are both as bad as each other and to be honest I don't care what you think about me, or my horse, nor my posts or replies for that matter.  I just feel dreadfully sorry (for you not me) that you feel you feel justified in continually treating me the way you do when I have done nothing wrong to either of you.  I will not comment further as my words are entirely wasted and any hope of ever reaching a resolution is obviously out of the question despite me trying to appeal to your 'better natures'.


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## TheSylv007 (8 June 2016)

For Christ's sake, not again


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## _GG_ (8 June 2016)

TheSylv007 said:



			For Christ's sake, not again 

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Was just thinking the exact same thing. I don't know AC14 or JFTD in real life. I do know Ester in real life, quite well actually and I can honestly say that she is one of the nicest people I know. She's been extremely helpful to a heck of a lot of people on this forum and has laid bare her own medical history to help and support others. (Knowing her medical history and social challenges means many of your posts towards her are shameful Applecart).I was unable to respond to a different thread recently as quite frankly Applecart, you said something so vile, I was just too angry to post...yet I have been able to get past that and engage in a perfectly civil and friendly conversation on this thread, until now. Ester and I disagree over plenty of things, pull each other up if we think the other needs it and we both appreciate that we can do that and remain friends....it's called being an adult! 

I don't care what justification anyone thinks they have, it is beyond rude to turn other peoples threads into your own platform for having a pop at others. 

Grow up, none of us are twelve any more and every time anyone is about to type any post on any thread that is a dig at others and not helpful to the OP...walk away from your computer and remind yourselves that you're not a pre-pubescent teenager and really should damn well know better. 

I am fed up of seeing my friend being jumped on. Applecart, I know you don't want to see it, but it happens with alarming regularity and I have had words with Ester about not having a go at you as well...so this isn't one sided...only recently, my advice has been that she should know better than to trying to reason with you sometimes because, as the thread below shows quite nicely, you will ignore the posts of others who disagree with you and single out Ester, playing the victim every single time. I'm sick of it. You did this to someone you know has social challenges on a thread started by someone in a very fragile and vulnerable position...you should have realised how insensitive your post was and not turned into an attack on Ester.

https://forums-secure.horseandhound...-I-m-totally-ashamed/page3&highlight=overdose

We're all allowed opinions, we're all allowed to disagree, but if you're going to accuse others of treating you badly, you need to make damn sure you're not doing the exact same thing. For what it's worth...to spell it out...Ester posted a very helpful reply, someone else pulled you up on your comment and Ester agreed...but it was only Ester that got the flack...again! 

OP - again, thank you for the update, I am very sorry that your thread got so badly derailed and I pray to all that is good in the world that you'll be the last person to have a thread ruined. I'm very pleased that your horses wound is healing nicely now and don't be put off asking questions again xx

Seriously people....wake up, grow up and start being a bit more bl00dy kind to each other. We've lost a 32 year old much loved forum member recently, we all have enough poo going on in our lives and none of us know what's going on behind the screens of others, so is it too much to ask that we just start being kind to eachother??? It's not rocket science!


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## Tnavas (8 June 2016)

NeilDePlume said:



			There are many papers on the use of Boric acid- Boric Acid Published Online: 31 JAN 2012 -DOI: 10.1002/3527600418.mb1004335kske0005 Boric acid should not be allowed to come into contact with open wounds, damaged skin or, in particular, granulation tissue.  Application of boric acid to healthy skin does not cause toxic effects. However, intoxications, some of which were lethal, have been described after application to damaged skin, especially to granulation tissue. Animalintex Poultice Ingredient % by Wt -Cotton Wadding -62 - 75 % by Wt - Tragacanth Gum -11 - 13 % by Wt - Boric Acid -3 - 5 % by Wt - Polyethylene- 5 % by Wt.
		
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Got to laugh since millions of horses world wide are poulticed with Animalintex every day. Burnt toast is carcinogenic, best we all stop eating it! 

Vets don't always get it right either. Common sense is to keep a wound clean, using saline, you don't risk damage. Don't put ointment on it from a pot or tube previously used, quickest way to introduce bugs. Throw away previously opened ointments. Someone made a negative comment about my suggesting the OP poultice with Animalintex, which would either draw out anything in the wound or encourage granulation which will bring in a vast network of blood supply to aid healing. I don't get the vet in for every nick, with years of experience, I've done what the vet suggested in my early days of horse ownership. The only horse lost to infection was the result of the vet putting on a bandage over a wound with instructions to leave it undisturbed for a week. The result the horse developed blood poisoning and had to be PTS.


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## Illusion100 (8 June 2016)

I think that was perhaps his point?

Animalintex is a poultice and while it has it's place it isn't necessarily ideal for all wounds nor all stages of wound healing. Many wound dressings have been specifically designed for their particular action/purpose and rarely can they be used as an 'allrounder' in order to maximise healthy cell regeneration and reduce complications whether they be simply aesthetic (such as the encouragment of an excess of granulation tissue) or more complicated. 

While minor wounds might not fall into this category on a regular basis (regarding dressing application), healing does have very separate stages and to maximise benefit each stage should ideally be nutured as efficiently as possible. 

Wounds in general are always contaminated, which isn't always a bad thing to keep a healthy immune system, I have to admit I am much more lax regarding ointments etc, I like my moneys worth and nothings lost a leg yet!


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## NeilDePlume (8 June 2016)

A natural fibrous rock was widely used within homes and other buildings until 1999&#8230;... My point was on the whole the natural healing process will continue (ex of infection); it can be simply aided or it can be impaired by intervention of the wrong type. If it&#8217;s not healing( as the post is titled), ask yourself what have we done to interfere it. Look at the effect you induce is it aiding or detrimental. There is no one single fix!  

Animal lintex should not really be used with honey it effects the glucose oxidase action and I reiterate &#8220;Personally I would question if it should be used at all. This because I choose to look at the data produced for patient advancement. (that&#8217;s why I quoted the paper)

 If &#8220;millions of horses worldwide are poulticed with Animalintex every day&#8221; &#8230; You could say; It&#8217;s not effective?? There is a problem with the equine industry?? or the data quoted is wildly over exaggerated ??... It is a narrow mind which cannot look at a subject from various points of view.&#8221;

Oh the natural rock thing Tnavas is Asbestos.


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## Damnation (8 June 2016)

TheSylv007 said:



			For Christ's sake, not again 

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I agree.

Kind of sick of seeing the same person jump on people because opinions differ and they need to be right and they have to have experienced it at least 5 times blah blah blah.

Grow up.


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## Dave's Mam (8 June 2016)

I am glad to read that the OP has a positive update.  Keep us posted.

CAE.


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## Tnavas (9 June 2016)

NeilDePlume said:



			A natural fibrous rock was widely used within homes and other buildings until 1999&#8230;... My point was on the whole the natural healing process will continue (ex of infection); it can be simply aided or it can be impaired by intervention of the wrong type. If it&#8217;s not healing( as the post is titled), ask yourself what have we done to interfere it. Look at the effect you induce is it aiding or detrimental. There is no one single fix!  

Animal lintex should not really be used with honey it effects the glucose oxidase action and I reiterate &#8220;Personally I would question if it should be used at all. This because I choose to look at the data produced for patient advancement. (that&#8217;s why I quoted the paper)

 If &#8220;millions of horses worldwide are poulticed with Animalintex every day&#8221; &#8230; You could say; It&#8217;s not effective?? There is a problem with the equine industry?? or the data quoted is wildly over exaggerated ??... It is a narrow mind which cannot look at a subject from various points of view.&#8221;

Oh the natural rock thing Tnavas is Asbestos.
		
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I use Animalintex on just about every wound and never had a problem with it - so will continue to use it when required 

I don't use Animalintex with honey but have used it following Animalintex.

I don't have anything other than saline in my first aid box for cleaning wounds

I do not use wound powder as it causes more problems than it treats

I don't use any ointments on wounds, just keep them clean as possible

My specialist equine vet advised putting neat salt on to a wound as it keeps the flies off and is a natural component of the body

I have a good success rate with injuries -the pics below are of my youngster after he put a leg through the fence - the first picture is almost how he arrived back from the person he was leased to, I cut off the dressing the vet put on as it was barely wide enough to cover the wound and had creased up and was digging into the wound - Not sure what they teach vets these days on bandaging but that one had no idea!
The next is the wound after around 10 days, following a few days of animalintex, a few of honey clean and growing proud flesh, then getting smaller after using Copper Sulphate solution to remove the proud flesh - the final picture is a about 3 months later - wound healed to a line. Wound was flushed with saline daily from a pump spray -


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## _GG_ (9 June 2016)

Tnavas said:



			I use Animalintex on just about every wound and never had a problem with it - so will continue to use it when required 

I don't use Animalintex with honey but have used it following Animalintex.

I don't have anything other than saline in my first aid box for cleaning wounds

I do not use wound powder as it causes more problems than it treats

I don't use any ointments on wounds, just keep them clean as possible

My specialist equine vet advised putting neat salt on to a wound as it keeps the flies off and is a natural component of the body

I have a good success rate with injuries -the pics below are of my youngster after he put a leg through the fence - the first picture is almost how he arrived back from the person he was leased to, I cut off the dressing the vet put on as it was barely wide enough to cover the wound and had creased up and was digging into the wound - Not sure what they teach vets these days on bandaging but that one had no idea!
The next is the wound after around 10 days, following a few days of animalintex, a few of honey clean and growing proud flesh, then getting smaller after using Copper Sulphate solution to remove the proud flesh - the final picture is a about 3 months later - wound healed to a line. Wound was flushed with saline daily from a pump spray - 




















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If that top picture is depicting the wound, as you say, after you had removed a vet applied bandage, I'd have reported that vet for malpractice and wanted him or her struck off. I have never, in 35 years of being around horses, seen a would like that presented to a vet where they failed to properly clean the wound, shave away the surrounding hair to guard against contamination and which appears to have been bandaged so loosely that there is no evidence of any bandaging ever having been applied. 

It healed very well, but presents in the first picture like a wound with every chance of a good recovery. I would think your intervention enabled it to scar less than it possibly would have done otherwise, but I reiterate, if a vet saw that and left it as in picture 1...that vet needs to be banned from ever working on animals!


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## NeilDePlume (9 June 2016)

Originally Posted by Tnavas  

&#8220;The next is the wound after around 10 days, following a few days of animalintex, a few of honey clean and growing proud flesh, then getting smaller after using Copper Sulphate solution to remove the proud flesh &#8211;&#8220;

I am sure I could trade picture of wounds, these are no more impressive than others and less so than many. Yet you got there in the end, if it took 3 months. First observation is that None of these pictures show the area around to have been shaved, by yourself or the attending which shocks and concerns me. Excessive granulation tissue forms as a result of several different factors; contamination of the wound, excessive movement of healing tissue, minimal soft tissue coverage around the wound, and a reduced blood supply. Especially important for lower limbs wounds that occur in areas where there is minimal soft tissue, muscle, to protect the wound and give it a rich blood supply.

&#8220;then getting smaller after using Copper Sulphate solution to remove the proud flesh&#8221;; Vascular Endothelial Growth Factor (VEGF) is believed to be the most prevalent, efficacious, and long-term signal that is known to stimulate angiogenesis in wounds. Topical copper sulphate accelerates closure of a dermal wounds allowing healing by secondary intention. I would propose your use of copper sulphate promoted VEGF and got you there through &#8220;proud flesh&#8221; ignorance rather than knowledge and intention. Caustic agents, such as copper sulphate are not recommended today they can severely inhibit healthy healing of skin if abused.

Finishing again where I finished last time &#8220;It is a narrow mind which cannot look at a subject from various points of view. &#8220;Your &#8220;instructions&#8221; have good intention but appear very outmoded and may benefit from some up-to-date learning.


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## Queenbee (9 June 2016)

Tnavas said:



			Wash with saline solution, then put on an animalintex poultice for a few days - It sounds infected. Avoid wound powder as it can cause proud flesh - the wound itself may produce proud flesh as its natures way of healing.

Ester - Activated MAnuka honey does not need to be of medical grade for horses - especially if it comes from New Zealand, which is where the majority of Manuka bushes grow - our bees are extremely healthy! I've been using supermarket Manuka honey for 15 or so years and I worked in the equine industry here until only a few years ago. It is safe. 

OP - the honey is amazing stuff and does a good job
From this 






to this in 5 weeks





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That horse is the poster pin up for Manuka Honey!  I never tire of seeing that transformation!


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