# Should there be a weight limit for people at shows (and if so, what and how?!)



## Morgan123 (21 July 2022)

Just pondering this recently, hope I don't offend anyone but am just interested in what people think. Riding schools now tend to have a 20% rule, but to my knowledge none of the disciplines have a weight limit for competing, and some disciplines (showing) frequently have people who are let's say pretty big on their horses/ponies. Obviously some shows, e.g. Gt Yorks and HOYS, are known for having people who will overtly invite riders (e.g. adults riding in ponies) to have them and the pony weighed to see if they are under the 20% rule - but this hasn't been taken up particularly in other shows and other disciplines. And obviously it's not a lot of fun for the vet/steward/person being asked to be weighed! And we all know 20% is problematic as a concept, but it's the best we have right now....

Just curious as to views on this. Should there be a rule - if so, what? and how should it be implemented in a way that is sensitive to everyone, but protects the horses/ponies welfare? If there is a rule, should it apply equally for all disciplines, or should some (e.g. higher level of sport? Anything involving jumping) be stricter than others?!


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## Birker2020 (21 July 2022)

I'm personally sick of seeing all this riders weight stuff - (that's not having a go at you Morgan123)

It's so dependent on a lot of factors including horses height/frame/age and what the activity is or how long the activity is for.  I wouldn't dream of getting on a 15.2hh TB but I'd happily step onto a 16.2hh M/W WB or ISH. 

Its about as subjective as BMI and causes as much friction.
Surely common sense should prevail?

this for example appalls me


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## ihatework (21 July 2022)

There are far too many variables unfortunately to be able to write a specific rule that is fair and transparent.

Unfortunately.

Far too many people riding unsuitable mounts.


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## poiuytrewq (21 July 2022)

It just wouldn’t be possible. No way to enforce a weight limit on peoples own horses at shows. 
I agree that many people are too heavy but don’t think there’s anything that can be done about it.


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## stangs (21 July 2022)

In endurance, I don’t think it’d be particularly necessary as the horses get vet checked. Presumably, a horse that’s seriously overloaded wouldn’t recover in time. 

With other disciplines, I’d like to see stewards pull up riders who look too big, and for that decision to then be disputed using a generous 20/25% rule (surely, even a very fit weight carrier shouldn’t be carrying more than that?). But, logistically, I can’t imagine that happening, just wouldn’t be practical. You’d either be pulling people beforehand, disrupting their warm up, or afterwards, at which point the horse has already had to struggle through it.


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## FieldOrnaments (21 July 2022)

Whilst yes, deliberate underhorsing is an issue, unfortunately it's so commonplace that shows that rigourously enforced a - for instance - 20% rule probably wouldn't get the support needed to run. Riders would take their entry fees elsewhere. Although I'm not sure how anyone can say, 'I'm sick of discussions on rider weight' when it's such a welfare issue - though one does wonder if it's a guilty conscience talking...


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## shortstuff99 (21 July 2022)

Pretty sure they do all have a rule that says horse should be of a suitable size for the rider.


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## ihatework (21 July 2022)

shortstuff99 said:



			Pretty sure they do all have a rule that says horse should be of a suitable size for the rider.
		
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But that is where it is subjective and very difficult to apply

ETA - it naturally comes into force where weight causes lameness, horse struggles sufficiently that you get resistance/elimination. That is the reality. It shouldn’t be.


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## rara007 (21 July 2022)

stangs said:



			In endurance, I don’t think it’d be particularly necessary as the horses get vet checked. Presumably, a horse that’s seriously overloaded wouldn’t recover in time. 

With other disciplines, I’d like to see stewards pull up riders who look too big, and for that decision to then be disputed using a generous 20/25% rule (surely, even a very fit weight carrier shouldn’t be carrying more than that?). But, logistically, I can’t imagine that happening, just wouldn’t be practical. You’d either be pulling people beforehand, disrupting their warm up, or afterwards, at which point the horse has already had to struggle through it.
		
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I wonder how much the minimum weight limit is as a % of those Diddy lean Arabs…!


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## Birker2020 (21 July 2022)

FieldOrnaments said:



			Although I'm not sure how anyone can say, 'I'm sick of discussions on rider weight' when it's such a welfare issue - though one does wonder if it's a guilty conscience talking...
		
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No guilty conscience.  Some horses are weight carriers. This was me around 18.2 stone (I'm 5ft 9 1/2") with my previous 17.1hh MW WB.  I don't think I look too heavy.  I look big but not too big.  And all I did was hack twice a week for 20 mins.  I've since lost around 1.5 stone stone.


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## palo1 (21 July 2022)

Well there certainly could be relatively simple way of checking horse/rider compatibility - every competitor could be weighed in before their class and every competing horse could have a weigh-in/weigh tape applied.  It wouldn't be exact but it would be better than nothing and it would signal to anyone who wanted to compete that they needed to be sure they were within limits.  It would be more objective than done by eye and it wouldn't disqualify any horse or rider as long as the partnership was compatible and ethical (ie under 20% and preferably 15%).  It would require very tactful and clear stewarding/communication but it could be done.  Weighing in tents at PTPs are absolutely standard so they could be at shows too.  You would have to have a steward or offical weigh taping the horses too of course.


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## ihatework (21 July 2022)

Major flaw in that Palo. The fatter the horse the bigger the weigh tape will say they can carry. Whereas in reality the less they should carry given they are lugging around their own flab. As we all know from the show ring, evaluation of overweight horses isn’t so straightforward either 😉


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## windand rain (21 July 2022)

Same fiddles will apply in this as well as they do in height certificates I remember ponies being measured before entering the ring until some top folk argued that tense excited horses grew. Now my measured 132cm pony is by far the smallest in the class at shows in fact in spite of being chunky looks like she'd fit in the 122cm class


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## humblepie (21 July 2022)

I am rubbish at maths but just did quick calcuation - 500 kg thoroughbred, 20% is 100 kg, which is over 15 stone.  Is that right?


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## AShetlandBitMeOnce (21 July 2022)

My 18.3hh warmblood was 700kg.. Meaning he would apparently take a rider of 140kg or nearly 22 stone which is utterly ridiculous. A man of this weight did ride him for a while and I always wonder if that contributed to the degeneration of his joints which ultimately resulted in PTS.

I don't think anyone over 16.5 stone should be riding any animal full stop; including HW cobs, ID's and heavies, not even for a walk down the lane - and if anyone plans to tell me I'm being out of order and can't judge, I myself am above 16 stone and it's the _only_ reason I don't currently ride (and have turned down offers of rides on other people's horses despite desperately missing it).

You are sitting on an animals spine purely for your own enjoyment and privilege, you are not entitled to do so. You owe it to that animal to do everything you can to ensure that you don't physcially damage them, and being a fair weight is one of them - it stuns me how many people claim to do everything they can for their animals, yet what that actually means is that they will only do what they can if it suits them. I am sick to the back teeth of seeing horrendously overweight people ride and then wonder why things go wrong, or think that it's okay because why shouldn't they be able to do something they want to do? The best fitting saddle, constant physio, great turnout etc will not compensate for the fact that you are putting huge strain on your horses bones and soft tissues.

Some will also say 'but what about men that ride'.. all men can be sub 16.5 stone if they make an effort, and if they can't then they shouldn't ride. Not all sports are for everyone; take up carriage driving if you need to be around horses.  Yes, Highlands used to be used for carrying grown men and stags etc, but science has progressed since then and we now know how detrimental it is to them. We also used to electrocute people to cure 'sadness', times have moved on and understanding has progressed, we can't keep using the past to justufy the current.

If this upsets anyone then that is a you problem, this is my opinion.


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## Morgan123 (21 July 2022)

Interesting thoughts! I agree - the "common sense" approach would be lovely, but you only have to go to a county show and watch the pony warm up ring to see it's not adhered to, and neither are the rules. 
I kind of feel like, yes the 20% rule is obviusly problematic and there's massive variation in individual horses, muscle tone, conformation, training, what they're used to etc.... but is it so difficult that the best option is really just shrugging our shoulders and letting people get on with it?! I don't know, I definitely don't have any answers, I'm literally just thinking out loud having seen some uncomfortable scenes (which I recognise is me just seeing a snapshot!). I personally think I feel like more needs to be done, but what, by who, and how, I do not know!


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## Morgan123 (21 July 2022)

The thing about endurance is really interesting too. for FEI they have to carry 11 stone - I know people who don't compete their small Arabs  at FEI even though they'd like to, because they feel that's not fair on the horse over 100km or more (100km is minimum distance for FEI). Many would say that arabs are "designed" to carry men - maybe they are - does that make it right? Where is the line?! Such a tricky issue.


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## Morgan123 (21 July 2022)

humblepie said:



			I am rubbish at maths but just did quick calcuation - 500 kg thoroughbred, 20% is 100 kg, which is over 15 stone.  Is that right?
		
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yes, that includes tack. So it's not a low limit!


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## Tiddlypom (21 July 2022)

Tack and riding clothing adds approx 2.5 stone to nekked rider weight. So your 15 stone limit at the overly generous 20% rule for a 500kg horse means a max nekked rider weight of 12.5 stone.

I work to 15%.


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## ihatework (21 July 2022)

I completely agree with you AShetlandBitMeOnce. 

When I hit 15.5 stone I pretty much stopped riding other than occasional hacking on bigger horses.

I then gave myself a whopping kick up the derrier and I am now sub 11 stone. The difference in my fitness and balance is immense.


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## TotalMadgeness (21 July 2022)

After being away from dressage for a long time I was at two dressage comps at the weekend one BD and the other RC. I didn't spot any obese riders at the BD (but then I was only there in the morning) and while I was there I would say there was only one large lady riding but she was small in stature and the horse was big strong and fit. In the main the horses there were sleek and fit looking, even the cobby types - didn't spot any horses that looked overweight.

At the RC however there were definitely a lot more larger ladies and at least one obese one. There were also a number of horses who were clearly overweight and went huffing and puffing round their tests.

I would welcome some sort of weight guidance for both horses and riders in dressage but I really can't see how this could be fairly, or kindly, applied.


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## AShetlandBitMeOnce (21 July 2022)

..


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## FieldOrnaments (21 July 2022)

"I think you are (somewhat) underhorsed and should, for the animal's welfare as well as your own comfort, consider a larger mount." Is surely fine. 
You could escalate to "well, unfortunately you really are too large for this animal"  if needed. 
I don't think such phrasing unkind.


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## SEL (21 July 2022)

Morgan123 said:



			The thing about endurance is really interesting too. for FEI they have to carry 11 stone - I know people who don't compete their small Arabs  at FEI even though they'd like to, because they feel that's not fair on the horse over 100km or more (100km is minimum distance for FEI). Many would say that arabs are "designed" to carry men - maybe they are - does that make it right? Where is the line?! Such a tricky issue.
		
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I rode a racing fit barb Arabian some years ago overseas. Her regular rider must have been 16+ stone. He swapped with me for a day and she barely broke a sweat - but she was heavily muscled and incredibly fit. 

Both my drafts are over 650kg but with short backs so you certainly wouldn't want 20% on them (although they'd pull their own weight) I'm at the top end of the Dales pony's weight on the 15% guideline but so long as you could get your bum in a 16" saddle I think she'd carry a fair bit more.

I have a limit to my weight where if I nudge it on the scales then I need to give myself a boot up the backside. I ride 2 ponies, one is a baby and the other has KS. It's a privilege not a right to get on their backs so if that means a diet then so be it


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## FieldOrnaments (21 July 2022)

SEL said:



*It's a privilege not a right to get on their backs so if that means a diet then so be it*

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This is the crux of the matter, yet I feel is what so many riders today decide not to think of. (I cannot simply believe someone who is, say, >17st, who gets on a living animal's back, is not aware of the negative impact they are having due to simple naivety.)


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## Morgan123 (21 July 2022)

Well exactly - most people agree there should be a a limit, 20% is pretty generous (albeit complicated) but that people still don’t adhere to it. Do shows, and riding clubs I guess, have a responsibility to address that?


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## Upthecreek (21 July 2022)

SEL said:



			I rode a racing fit barb Arabian some years ago overseas. Her regular rider must have been 16+ stone. He swapped with me for a day and she barely broke a sweat - but she was heavily muscled and incredibly fit. 

Both my drafts are over 650kg but with short backs so you certainly wouldn't want 20% on them (although they'd pull their own weight) I'm at the top end of the Dales pony's weight on the 15% guideline but so long as you could get your bum in a 16" saddle I think she'd carry a fair bit more.

I have a limit to my weight where if I nudge it on the scales then I need to give myself a boot up the backside. I ride 2 ponies, one is a baby and the other has KS. It's a privilege not a right to get on their backs so if that means a diet then so be it
		
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I completely agree with you, but sadly we seem to be living in times where people think they can have it all and aren’t prepared to compromise. Surely if horse riding is your passion that should be your motivation to get to or maintain a weight that is comfortable for the horse to carry?

Never mind showing where the horse isn’t really expected to do strenuous activity. Sadly you see a fair few overweight competitors at one day events where the poor horses are expected to carry them around a course of show jumps and then canter/gallop solidly for 4-6 minutes jumping 15-20 cross country fences. It’s cruel and there is no regulation as far as I am aware.


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## eahotson (21 July 2022)

Many things have to be taken into account.Smaller stockier horses and ponies are often better weight carriers.However I have met and seen ride a British western rider who is at least 6ft2" tall. Nice build for his height, definately not fat.He must weigh at a consertvative estimate 12 stone. A western saddle weighs usually about 2 stone so his horses must carry at least 16stone. He competes very successfully at international level and his horses stay sound for years.He breeds and rides 15hh quite fine quarter horses.
He schools and hacks.His horses are ridden in a long frame and he told me that when he is schooling for a big competition he may sit on the horse for an hour but they actually only do about 20 minutes schooling, the rest being breaks for the horse when it has performed a correct manoeuvre.
I wonder at some modern dressage saddles and also the damage that can be done by harsh and incorrect schooling.I write as someone who does struggle with her weight but is careful and considerate about what I put my bum on and about saddle fit.
I once went to try what I was told was a proper cob, just to find it was a slightly common pony.I refused to get on saying I was too heavy but the owner was heavier than me!!!!


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## eahotson (21 July 2022)

When Criollio stallions are performance tested they have to carry at least 17 stone at a minimum speed for several days.


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## Barton Bounty (21 July 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			No guilty conscience.  Some horses are weight carriers. This was me around 18.2 stone (I'm 5ft 9 1/2") with my previous 17.1hh MW WB.  I don't think I look too heavy.  I look big but not too big.  And all I did was hack twice a week for 20 mins.  I've since lost around 1.5 stone stone.

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You look fab!
And no you dont look too heavy! I think its important to have enough muscle and top line on your horse to carry you as long as that is present i see no issue. I am also plumper and my horse is a well built tb with fantastic muscle and too line and Has no issue whatsoever carrying me 🥰 but my horse only hacks and id need to lose if I was to be jumping etc 😆


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## Squeak (21 July 2022)

I have been shocked by some of the riders I've seen showing recently and on completely inappropriate horses.  I was also surprised by the size of some of the horses and riders that were eventing.

I don't know what the answer is but I don't think I remember it being such an issue (bar adults warming up ponies) in the past.  As I said previously, I really do empathise with the riders as it can be so hard to get weight down.


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## palo1 (21 July 2022)

ihatework said:



			Major flaw in that Palo. The fatter the horse the bigger the weigh tape will say they can carry. Whereas in reality the less they should carry given they are lugging around their own flab. As we all know from the show ring, evaluation of overweight horses isn’t so straightforward either 😉
		
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Yes I get that; I was sort of assuming that overweight horses were not the issue here but I guess you could have a formal conditioning score too.


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## eahotson (21 July 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			No guilty conscience.  Some horses are weight carriers. This was me around 18.2 stone (I'm 5ft 9 1/2") with my previous 17.1hh MW WB.  I don't think I look too heavy.  I look big but not too big.  And all I did was hack twice a week for 20 mins.  I've since lost around 1.5 stone stone.

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You look fine to me.


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## eahotson (21 July 2022)

eahotson said:



			You look fine to me.
		
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and your horse looks happy.


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## Birker2020 (22 July 2022)

FieldOrnaments said:



			(I cannot simply believe someone who is, say, >17st, who gets on a living animal's back, is not aware of the negative impact they are having due to simple naivety.)
		
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Wow how judgemental.  If that was directed at me (or people who are plus 17 stone) I'd like to say its not like I'm some couch potato that never does anything, I'm more active than most people I know, swimming and spinning practically every night at the gym, mucking out and poo picking.  I don't ride and that's had a big input on my weight gain as had the medication I take (2 of the drugs cause weight gain) and the sedentary job that I have.  I don't sit there all day cramming McDonalds and cream cakes down my gob!

But I don't see how if a horse is a weight carrier that I am causing any detriment to it.  My previous horse had arthritic issues when I was a size 14 and weighed 12 stone, she didn't suddenly develop them because I put on weight the last couple of years of her life!

I'm certainly not ignorant and you shouldn't look down on people because they don't fit into the 'size 10' idealistic view.


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## Barton Bounty (22 July 2022)

Found that comment very judgmental too, muscle weights heavier than fat any normal person knows that!

I am not a size 10 either and never will be😂


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## AShetlandBitMeOnce (22 July 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			Wow how judgemental.  If that was directed at me (or people who are plus 17 stone) I'd like to say its not like I'm some couch potato that never does anything, I'm more active than most people I know, swimming and spinning practically every night at the gym, mucking out and poo picking.  I don't ride and that's had a big input on my weight gain as had the medication I take (2 of the drugs cause weight gain) and the sedentary job that I have.  I don't sit there all day cramming McDonalds and cream cakes down my gob!

But I don't see how if a horse is a weight carrier that I am causing any detriment to it.  My previous horse had arthritic issues when I was a size 14 and weighed 12 stone, she didn't suddenly develop them because I put on weight the last couple of years of her life!

I'm certainly not ignorant and you shouldn't look down on people because they don't fit into the 'size 10' idealistic view.
		
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Barton Bounty said:



			Found that comment very judgmental too, muscle weights heavier than fat any normal person knows that!

I am not a size 10 either and never will be😂
		
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The problem is that muscle vs fat is a completely irrelevant argument - 17 stone is 17 stone and you are still concentrating that amount of weight through a 17.5inch portion of a living animals spine; and that's not considering that that weight is concentrated down through two small panels of about 30cm2 on the bottom of the saddle, so is much more weight per cm2 than it would first seem. No-one is commenting on your lifestyle, or calling you lazy, or ignoring the fact that there might be mitigating circumstances. You have to remove the 'take it personally' part of the emotion from this conversation and have a frank and factual discussion about what is best for the animal.

There is a completely undeniable link between weight and bone/soft tissue degeneration in every mammal that has ever walked the earth. Look at fat dogs, fat humans, humans who carry heavy loads all their lives eg: scaffolders, and yes in horses. Anecdotal evidence but there are also studies, one such study is called 'Effect of weight carried on back pain and stride length in horses' which confirms this. The fact that you are completely unwilling to admit or even consider that you will have a detrimental effect on a horse compared to say someone who is 10 stone, is where I can see that the original poster was saying it's naive.

From what I have seen, you are both lovely posters and lovely people, but you have to retain the ability to have a rational and emotionless conversation about all factors affecting the welfare of horses if you wish for constant progression and change in this area.  I am 16 stone, I will never be a size 10 and I understand the importance of this discussion, despite wanting nothing more than to ride - so please don't tell me I'm judgemental or some skinny person who doesn't know how hard it is. I find it hard to lose weight due to failed hip surgery that I have spoken on this forum about before, so you are preaching to the choir with all of your reasoning.


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## Dexter (22 July 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			Wow how judgemental.  If that was directed at me (or people who are plus 17 stone) I'd like to say its not like I'm some couch potato that never does anything, I'm more active than most people I know, swimming and spinning practically every night at the gym, mucking out and poo picking.  I don't ride and that's had a big input on my weight gain as had the medication I take (2 of the drugs cause weight gain) and the sedentary job that I have.  I don't sit there all day cramming McDonalds and cream cakes down my gob!

But I don't see how if a horse is a weight carrier that I am causing any detriment to it.  My previous horse had arthritic issues when I was a size 14 and weighed 12 stone, she didn't suddenly develop them because I put on weight the last couple of years of her life!

I'm certainly not ignorant and you shouldn't look down on people because they don't fit into the 'size 10' idealistic view.
		
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It's not about fitting into a size 10, it's about putting 20 plus stone on a horse's back. If you are in excess of 18 stone, then you add 2 and a half stone for tack, then you are looking at nearly 21 stone. That is too much. And to have an arthritic horse carry that just makes it much worse. 

Losing weight is very difficult sometimes, so you have my sympathies. Its not a judgment on you or what you look like or eat etc. Its the fact that 21 stone is too much for any horse. The pressure down through the saddle must be immense. 

You don't have to ride, there are other things you can do with your horse.


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## Barton Bounty (22 July 2022)

AShetlandBitMeOnce said:



			The problem is that muscle vs fat is a completely irrelevant argument - 17 stone is 17 stone and you are still concentrating that amount of weight through a 17.5inch portion of a living animals spine; and that's not considering that that weight is concentrated down through two small panels of about 30cm2 on the bottom of the saddle, so is much more weight per cm2 than it would first seem. No-one is commenting on your lifestyle, or calling you lazy, or ignoring the fact that there might be mitigating circumstances. You have to remove the 'take it personally' part of the emotion from this conversation and have a frank and factual discussion about what is best for the animal.

There is a completely undeniable link between weight and bone/soft tissue degeneration in every mammal that has ever walked the earth. Look at fat dogs, fat humans, humans who carry heavy loads all their lives eg: scaffolders, and yes in horses. Anecdotal evidence but there are also studies, one such study is called 'Effect of weight carried on back pain and stride length in horses' which confirms this. The fact that you are completely unwilling to admit or even consider that you will have a detrimental effect on a horse compared to say someone who is 10 stone, is where I can see that the original poster was saying it's naive.

From what I have seen, you are both lovely posters and lovely people, but you have to retain the ability to have a rational and emotionless conversation about all factors affecting the welfare of horses if you wish for constant progression and change in this area.
		
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seems like it has now become a personal attack rather than answering a question! 

I am a lovely poster because I am not a negative person ☺️
Oh my how i laughed at that, you do not know me personally nor do you know what I am thinking we are in an open forum! I am NOT too heavy for my horse im within my 20% satisfactorily.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
The original post has now diverted from asking for peoples opinion, to yourself picking out other peoples post and micro managing them, its not needed and not required to be honest!  I am well aware of how it would look and it would not be right for a 20 stone person on a 15.2.
We do not always have to agree on our posts and we are all entitled to agree and disagree, without singling people out!!

Let people have their opinion ☺️ And have a wonderful day!


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## AShetlandBitMeOnce (22 July 2022)

Barton Bounty said:



			seems like it has now become a personal attack rather than answering a question!

I am a lovely poster because I am not a negative person ☺️
Oh my how i laughed at that, you do not know me personally nor do you know what I am thinking we are in an open forum! I am NOT too heavy for my horse im within my 20% satisfactorily.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
The original post has now diverted from asking for peoples opinion, to yourself picking out other peoples post and micro managing them, its not needed and not required to be honest!  I am well aware of how it would look and it would not be right for a 20 stone person on a 15.2.
We do not always have to agree on our posts and we are all entitled to agree and disagree, without singling people out!!

Let people have their opinion ☺️ And have a wonderful day!
		
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It was a colloquial 'you' not a you personally, I also sincerely apologise for saying that come across as a lovely person, I didn't realise that this would also be seen as a personal attack


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## eahotson (22 July 2022)

My vet never mentions human weight on horses but she does say that if horses were allowed to move naturally she wouldn't have to run round injecting hocks all the time.I have the new cob who has a fabulous walk and is soft and supple.Farrier says it's because she is straight.He added that most of the horses in our yard are crooked.Nearly all have owners trained by someone who was trained by someone quite big in the dressage world.


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## Barton Bounty (22 July 2022)

Not really but when you single out peoples posts for having an opinion it does feel personal, like I say people comment etc some people on here are brutal! Just really shouldnt bother posting cause everything that they post is negative.
When people type stuff it comes across differently .
Everyone is entitled to their opinion it is whether you choose to read it and scroll on or pick it out that makes the difference


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## AntiPuck (22 July 2022)

I would agree that there should be weight limits at shows, as it would at least send a message, even if people could and would do what they liked at home.

There are many sports where you could be as big as you liked and only be impacting yourself, but when you choose to engage in a sport whereby another animal has to carry you around with little choice in the matter, it's not at all harmless to be so heavy.


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## Upthecreek (22 July 2022)

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but it is a fact that it is better for a horse, no matter how large or small, to carry less weight. Just because there is a maximum weight the horse *should* be capable of carrying, that doesn’t mean it is good for it to be carrying up to that maximum weight. Whether someone weighs 10 stone or 18 stone surely they can admit that?

It is a privilege to ride a horse and we should do everything we can to make the experience as comfortable for them as possible.


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## Regandal (22 July 2022)

Barton Bounty said:



			Everyone is entitled to their opinion it is whether you choose to read it and scroll on or pick it out that makes the difference
		
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We have to separate opinions from facts. It is proven fact that carrying a heavy weight shortens a horses’ stride and stresses the joints. We can acknowledge that fact or ignore it.


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## Rosietaz (22 July 2022)

palo1 said:



			Yes I get that; I was sort of assuming that overweight horses were not the issue here but I guess you could have a formal conditioning score too.
		
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I wonder if that could be backed up by a expert though? Somebody who could determine what an overweight horses ideal weight should roughly be, and then take the % for rider allowance from that ideal?


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## Barton Bounty (22 July 2022)

Yea i do , and I agree there should be a weight limit!  It would be wrong to put someone of 20 stone on a lean 15.2. I thought the point of commenting was to air your opinion, not state facts. I was under the impression it was discussion. 🤷🏼‍♀️☺️


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## AShetlandBitMeOnce (22 July 2022)

Rosietaz said:



			I wonder if that could be backed up by a expert though? Somebody who could determine what an overweight horses ideal weight should roughly be, and then take the % for rider allowance from that ideal?
		
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Well people turn up hours early for a show, could you not whack the horse and then the rider on a weighbridge before the class? You would need a vet or nutritionist to say 'horse's ideal would be 50kg lighter than this' but it would go a long way to help I would think.


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## Upthecreek (22 July 2022)

Barton Bounty said:



			Yea i do , and I agree there should be a weight limit!  It would be wrong to put someone of 20 stone on a lean 15.2. I thought the point of commenting was to air your opinion, not state facts. I was under the impression it was discussion. 🤷🏼‍♀️☺️
		
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It is a discussion but opinions are largely formed on people’s individual circumstances and experiences so I feel that facts make a useful contribution to these kind of discussions as well 🙂


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## scats (22 July 2022)

The problem is, the issue of weight always causes very emotive responses and people avoid confronting the issue, whereas in reality, there is animal welfare to think of and that should override everything else, including peoples feelings.
As someone has stated, riding horses is a privilege and we should always try to be in the best condition that we can if we are going to expect another animal to carry us.
I am a slim person, but I have to work very hard and go without to stay this way.  I take a medication that is scientifically proven to slow the metabolism and if I’m not careful, the weight will creep on.  I have to go hungry a lot of the time and limit myself when it comes to food and snacks.  It can be miserable, I’m not going to lie, but I do feel it’s my duty to stay as light as I can to ride my horses.


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## eahotson (22 July 2022)

AShetlandBitMeOnce said:



			Well people turn up hours early for a show, could you not whack the horse and then the rider on a weighbridge before the class? You would need a vet or nutritionist to say 'horse's ideal would be 50kg lighter than this' but it would go a long way to help I would think.
		
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I am sorry but which planet are you on? Most people, even slim people on slim horses would object to that.There will be a lot of empty shows!


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## FieldOrnaments (22 July 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			Wow how judgemental.  If that was directed at me (or people who are plus 17 stone) I'd like to say its not like I'm some couch potato that never does anything, I'm more active than most people I know, swimming and spinning practically every night at the gym, mucking out and poo picking.  I don't ride and that's had a big input on my weight gain as had the medication I take (2 of the drugs cause weight gain) and the sedentary job that I have.  I don't sit there all day cramming McDonalds and cream cakes down my gob!

But I don't see how if a horse is a weight carrier that I am causing any detriment to it.  My previous horse had arthritic issues when I was a size 14 and weighed 12 stone, she didn't suddenly develop them because I put on weight the last couple of years of her life!

I'm certainly not ignorant and you shouldn't look down on people because they don't fit into the 'size 10' idealistic view.
		
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With all due respect, I don't care what size people are and never have done. I do care if their insistence on getting on an animal's back _regardless _of their size compromises that animal's welfare - as should anyone who has anything to do with horses. 
Believing, and saying, that a rider's choices should not have a negative impact on their animal is not judgemental. It's a fact.
I'm sorry that my words upset you but I don't see what is so offensive about saying that we have a duty of care towards these beautiful animals and should do our best to maximise their health and wellbeing.


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## sbloom (22 July 2022)

This is a minefield.  I recommend @rebelfit t anyone who would like to be healthier, and part of that may be weight loss, but his team and his "Missions" are incredibly supportive of mental health and anti diet culture.  Don't go to commercial diet companies that's for sure!



eahotson said:



			My vet never mentions human weight on horses but she does say that if horses were allowed to move naturally she wouldn't have to run round injecting hocks all the time.I have the new cob who has a fabulous walk and is soft and supple.Farrier says it's because she is straight.He added that most of the horses in our yard are crooked.Nearly all have owners trained by someone who was trained by someone quite big in the dressage world.
		
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Yep, if they're straight then it's likely their thoracic sling is lifted.  We all KNOW that they're not designed to carry us but the penny often doesn't drop fully.  They are crooked by nature because it keeps them alive, that split second to gallop off on one lead, rather than the brain having to choose, can make all the difference.  Then we take their natural crookedness, lunge them for a couple of weeks, and ask them to take the equivalent of us carrying 2-4 stones on our back, and do all sorts of fancy schmancy movements, or challenging terrain, or leap over fences.  We don't CHANGE their bodies so that they're "better" than they would be in the wild.  Saddle fitting, as a follow on, is ALWAYS mitigation, we cannot make a horse move better, we can only hope to stop them moving worse than unmounted.  And I do see a correlation between rider weight and things like hock problems, as well as adipose tissue damage under the saddle, and tension in the lumbar area.



Upthecreek said:



			Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but it is a fact that it is better for a horse, no matter how large or small, to carry less weight. Just because there is a maximum weight the horse *should* be capable of carrying, that doesn’t mean it is good for it to be carrying up to that maximum weight. Whether someone weighs 10 stone or 18 stone surely they can admit that?

It is a privilege to ride a horse and we should do everything we can to make the experience as comfortable for them as possible.
		
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Exactly.  But I will never ever judge someone for the weight.  We just have to have a better understanding of the very nature of a horse's physiology, why it is how it is, and how we're asking a lot for them to carry anyone at all.


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## Barton Bounty (22 July 2022)

So the post started off as pondering…


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## Steerpike (22 July 2022)

stangs said:



			In endurance, I don’t think it’d be particularly necessary as the horses get vet checked. Presumably, a horse that’s seriously overloaded wouldn’t recover in time.

With other disciplines, I’d like to see stewards pull up riders who look too big, and for that decision to then be disputed using a generous 20/25% rule (surely, even a very fit weight carrier shouldn’t be carrying more than that?). But, logistically, I can’t imagine that happening, just wouldn’t be practical. You’d either be pulling people beforehand, disrupting their warm up, or afterwards, at which point the horse has already had to struggle through it.
		
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FEI endurance is the only equine sport (barring racing) that has a minimum weight, 3* is 75kg 2* and 1* is 70kg off the top of my head the weight includes saddle and breast plate


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## Rosietaz (22 July 2022)

eahotson said:



			I am sorry but which planet are you on? Most people, even slim people on slim horses would object to that.There will be a lot of empty shows!
		
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Why do you think that?
I wouldn’t have an issue with this, providing I was made aware before hand so could ensure I arrive at a venue with plenty of time.
I think it would be difficult for smaller shows to do it for sure, but the weighing of horses and expert advice before hand could also help with the equine obesity crisis, would it not?


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## Birker2020 (22 July 2022)

AShetlandBitMeOnce said:



			The problem is that muscle vs fat is a completely irrelevant argument - 17 stone is 17 stone and you are still concentrating that amount of weight through a 17.5inch portion of a living animals spine; and that's not considering that that weight is concentrated down through two small panels of about 30cm2 on the bottom of the saddle, so is much more weight per cm2 than it would first seem. No-one is commenting on your lifestyle, or calling you lazy, or ignoring the fact that there might be mitigating circumstances. You have to remove the 'take it personally' part of the emotion from this conversation and have a frank and factual discussion about what is best for the animal.

There is a completely undeniable link between weight and bone/soft tissue degeneration in every mammal that has ever walked the earth. Look at fat dogs, fat humans, humans who carry heavy loads all their lives eg: scaffolders, and yes in horses. Anecdotal evidence but there are also studies, one such study is called 'Effect of weight carried on back pain and stride length in horses' which confirms this. The fact that you are completely unwilling to admit or even consider that you will have a detrimental effect on a horse compared to say someone who is 10 stone, is where I can see that the original poster was saying it's naive.

From what I have seen, you are both lovely posters and lovely people, but you have to retain the ability to have a rational and emotionless conversation about all factors affecting the welfare of horses if you wish for constant progression and change in this area.  I am 16 stone, I will never be a size 10 and I understand the importance of this discussion, despite wanting nothing more than to ride - so please don't tell me I'm judgemental or some skinny person who doesn't know how hard it is. I find it hard to lose weight due to failed hip surgery that I have spoken on this forum about before, so you are preaching to the choir with all of your reasoning.
		
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Well its irrelevant to me as I'm not riding and probably won't be able to ride my horse (who has arthritis but obviously not due to rider weight as he's been professionally produced and competed with a string of lightweight riders) but interesting comments nevertheless. 

I think a more interesting conversation about overworking horses at aged 3, 4 and 5 which can a) cause and b) speed up degenerative changes is more worthwhile imho.


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## Birker2020 (22 July 2022)

Dexter said:



			It's not about fitting into a size 10, it's about putting 20 plus stone on a horse's back. If you are in excess of 18 stone, then you add 2 and a half stone for tack, then you are looking at nearly 21 stone. That is too much. And to have an arthritic horse carry that just makes it much worse.

Losing weight is very difficult sometimes, so you have my sympathies. Its not a judgment on you or what you look like or eat etc. Its the fact that 21 stone is too much for any horse. The pressure down through the saddle must be immense.

You don't have to ride, there are other things you can do with your horse.
		
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I'm quite aware that there are other things I can do with my horse, I spent half her life 'doing other things'.  I would love to ride the horse in question but it was PTS in June last year so not really going to happen.


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## AShetlandBitMeOnce (22 July 2022)

eahotson said:



			I am sorry but which planet are you on? Most people, even slim people on slim horses would object to that.There will be a lot of empty shows!
		
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Yeah good point, I mean.. it would undeniably help but it would also be a very unpopular method! 
I would rather be judged on what a scale says than someone saying 'you look too big' though.. it's the only way to remove as much subjectiveness from the topic as possible. 
At the end of the day, the only real way of doing anything about it and not having profits suffer for 'your' event, is to rely on the self awareness of the rider/owner.. and that's about as much use as a chocolate fireguard.


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## stangs (22 July 2022)

Out of curiosity, driving folk, is there any talk in those disciplines about not asking the horse to pull too much or shows monitoring the weight they’re pulling? I see a lot of small ponies pulling what looks to me like a bit much to be doing strenuous exercise at the same time.


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## Goldie's mum (22 July 2022)

Morgan123 said:



			Just curious as to views on this. Should there be a rule - if so, what? and how should it be implemented in a way that is sensitive to everyone, but protects the horses/ponies welfare?
		
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Id say deliberate cruelty is very rare but people are generally bigger than they were a generation ago & breed standards/class rules were written for a different age. Raising the issue to make people think is a very good idea. New riders still seem to be told they're ok on a horse if their feet are level with its belly. That's outdated information based on a previous generation's average body shape. Limits would need to be very vague for all the reasons mentioned above but a class entry form could say "The approximate upper rider weight limit for this breed would be x stone not including tack. Be aware that if you appear to be under horsed to the judge you may be taken aside to be weighed."


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## Birker2020 (22 July 2022)

eahotson said:



			My vet never mentions human weight on horses but she does say that if horses were allowed to move naturally she wouldn't have to run round injecting hocks all the time.I have the new cob who has a fabulous walk and is soft and supple.Farrier says it's because she is straight.He added that most of the horses in our yard are crooked.Nearly all have owners trained by someone who was trained by someone quite big in the dressage world.
		
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I personally think she needs to change to narrative to "If horses were allowed to move naturally and not on a surface and drilled with circles and continual collected movements" she wouldn't need to run round injection hocks all the time.


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## AShetlandBitMeOnce (22 July 2022)

Ahh I see the return of the 'but X and Y is worse' argument is being exercised again. This is always the go to of a lot of posters on various contentious threads. I really don't think it's a productive way to look at issues.


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## Upthecreek (22 July 2022)

I don’t want to judge people or offend them either but if you are expecting a living being to carry you surely you have to take personal responsibility for ensuring you make that as comfortable and easy as possible? Unfortunately that doesn’t seem to be the case or we wouldn’t be having this discussion. We shouldn’t need to weigh riders and horses at shows, ideally everyone who rides should understand horse physiology and put the wellbeing of the horse first….. meanwhile back in the real world.

Incidentally I would have no issue with being weighed at a show or event, but weighing tack and horse as well and doing the calculations would be a right faff.



sbloom said:



			Exactly.  But I will never ever judge someone for the weight.  We just have to have a better understanding of the very nature of a horse's physiology, why it is how it is, and how we're asking a lot for them to carry anyone at all.
		
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## AShetlandBitMeOnce (22 July 2022)

I don't see why commenting on weight is so judgemental and causes such uproar. Everyone has eyes and a mirror so it is no surprise to them what size they are, big or small. Weight is just a descriptor for your mass vs gravity balance, it's not a comment on who you are, what your lifestyle is, no-one is saying you are any less of a person for being over or under weight.. it's just another characteristic just like having brown hair. 

Yes, being fat gets me down - I understand that side of it too, I don't love it but I can't argue or being upset by a factual assessment of my size. For example, my doctor telling me I am overweight isn't him saying I am a lesser person, just that I am larger than I should be for optimum health in his professional opinion.

No-one would argue with a weight limit for a particular ride at a theme park, or that they are too big for the seats, so why does it suddently become so outrageous when it's horses? I'm baffled.


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## sbloom (22 July 2022)

AShetlandBitMeOnce said:



			Yes, being fat gets me down - I understand that side of it too, I don't love it but I can't argue or being upset by a factual assessment of my size. For example, my doctor telling me I am overweight isn't him saying I am a lesser person, just that I am larger than I should be for optimum health in his professional opinion.
		
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People WILL find it emotive.  Imagine if you kept going to the doctor for a particular issue and ALL she'd go on about was your weight, that that is the underlying problem, so go away and lose weight and if you still have the issue then we'll look again...and all she can recommend is a commercial diet business (as most are businesses first and foremost, and mostly food manufacturers at that, of the worst kind).  

I know that last bit is changing, there is sometimes the sort of help available that for instance Dr Chatterjee champions, but mental health and weight are virtually inseparable and instead of being helped, overweight people are mostly villified.  And you can improve your health without losing weight, weight is just SO visible that the vast majority of us see it as an indicator of health, and often of laziness which is unbelievably cruel, and a complete misunderstanding of the human psyche.

https://www.facebook.com/WeAreRebelfit


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## AShetlandBitMeOnce (22 July 2022)

sbloom said:



			People WILL find it emotive.  Imagine if you kept going to the doctor for a particular issue and ALL she'd go on about was your weight, that that is the underlying problem, so go away and lose weight and if you still have the issue then we'll look again...and all she can recommend is a commercial diet business (as most are businesses first and foremost, and mostly food manufacturers at that, of the worst kind).

I know that last bit is changing, there is sometimes the sort of help available that for instance Dr Chatterjee champions, but mental health and weight are virtually inseparable and instead of being helped, overweight people are mostly villified.  And you can improve your health without losing weight, weight is just SO visible that the vast majority of us see it as an indicator of health, and often of laziness which is unbelievably cruel, and a complete misunderstanding of the human psyche.

https://www.facebook.com/WeAreRebelfit

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Believe me, I have had that experience at the doctors.. They have tried to prescribe weight loss injections, asked if I am aware of slimming world, told that a particular health issue was as a result of my weight despite it being a documented result of an eating disorder I had as a teenager... But that is a completely different argument, you can be angry at the way you are treated without being unable to discuss in a rational manner the fact that you are overweight. Weight is an inflammatory word, if you called it people's relation to gravity I think they would get much less upset.


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## Bellaboo18 (22 July 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			Well its irrelevant to me as I'm not riding and probably won't be able to ride my horse (who has arthritis but obviously not due to rider weight as he's been professionally produced and competed with a string of lightweight riders) but interesting comments nevertheless.

I think a more interesting conversation about overworking horses at aged 3, 4 and 5 which can a) cause and b) speed up degenerative changes is more worthwhile imho.
		
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Why can't we have both conversations?


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## Barton Bounty (22 July 2022)

AShetlandBitMeOnce said:



			I don't see why commenting on weight is so judgemental and causes such uproar. Everyone has eyes and a mirror so it is no surprise to them what size they are, big or small. Weight is just a descriptor for your mass vs gravity balance, it's not a comment on who you are, what your lifestyle is, no-one is saying you are any less of a person for being over or under weight.. it's just another characteristic just like having brown hair.

Yes, being fat gets me down - I understand that side of it too, I don't love it but I can't argue or being upset by a factual assessment of my size. For example, my doctor telling me I am overweight isn't him saying I am a lesser person, just that I am larger than I should be for optimum health in his professional opinion.

No-one would argue with a weight limit for a particular ride at a theme park, or that they are too big for the seats, so why does it suddently become so outrageous when it's horses? I'm baffled.
		
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I dont think it does cause an uproar as such, i am not offended either by what was said.  It did offend me that you picked out myself and birkers post and commented, I personally was just giving my opinion on the post.
Although I did not realise when you said YOU it was not meant personally, that is why it always comes across different via keyboard ☺️


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## Barton Bounty (22 July 2022)

AShetlandBitMeOnce said:



			Believe me, I have had that experience at the doctors.. They have tried to prescribe weight loss injections, asked if I am aware of slimming world, told that a particular health issue was as a result of my weight despite it being a documented result of an eating disorder I had as a teenager... But that is a completely different argument, you can be angry at the way you are treated without being unable to discuss in a rational manner the fact that you are overweight. Weight is an inflammatory word, if you called it people's relation to gravity I think they would get much less upset.
		
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I must be fatter because of my shampoo 😂😂 it says volumising on the bottle, thats where I am going wrong 😂😂😂


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## Birker2020 (22 July 2022)

Barton Bounty said:



			I dont think it does cause an uproar as such, i am not offended either by what was said.  It did offend me that you picked out myself and birkers post and commented, I personally was just giving my opinion on the post.
Although I did not realise when you said YOU it was not meant personally, that is why it always comes across different via keyboard ☺️
		
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Yes I agree with this.  I suppose I am a bit sensitive about my weight, if it was one thing I could change about me it would be that especially as I try so hard to lose it and never seem to get far


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## AShetlandBitMeOnce (22 July 2022)

Barton Bounty said:



			I dont think it does cause an uproar as such, i am not offended either by what was said.  It did offend me that you picked out myself and birkers post and commented, I personally was just giving my opinion on the post.
Although I did not realise when you said YOU it was not meant personally, that is why it always comes across different via keyboard ☺️
		
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It would have been clearer if I hadn't quoted specific posts when I did mean a colloqial 'you', I have mentally noted for future reference. It's hard to try and predict how written text will come across as you say.


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## Barton Bounty (22 July 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			Yes I agree with this.  I suppose I am a bit sensitive about my weight, if it was one thing I could change about me it would be that especially as I try so hard to lose it and never seem to get far 

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me too, might try to shift a stone since this morning I have been diagnosed with osteoarthritis and will need a bionic knee 🤦🏼‍♀️😂


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## Birker2020 (22 July 2022)

AShetlandBitMeOnce said:



			It would have been clearer if I hadn't quoted specific posts when I did mean a colloqial 'you', I have mentally noted for future reference. It's hard to try and predict how written text will come across as you say. 

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I think it was more FO and the way he/she came across that got my goat.


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## Barton Bounty (22 July 2022)

AShetlandBitMeOnce said:



			It would have been clearer if I hadn't quoted specific posts when I did mean a colloqial 'you', I have mentally noted for future reference. It's hard to try and predict how written text will come across as you say. 

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Happy days 🥰 🙌🏻


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## sbloom (22 July 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			Yes I agree with this.  I suppose I am a bit sensitive about my weight, if it was one thing I could change about me it would be that especially as I try so hard to lose it and never seem to get far 

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You're far from alone, have you looked at Rebelfit?  Rider Reboot also does nutrition and mindset work as part of the overall rider conditioning approach.


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## Birker2020 (22 July 2022)

sbloom said:



			You're far from alone, have you looked at Rebelfit?  Rider Reboot also does nutrition and mindset work as part of the overall rider conditioning approach.
		
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thanks.  I've not as I figured the gym should be sorting me out but I'll have a nosey and see what its all about.  Rider reboot is not much point as I can't ride as you know.

I was actually thinking of joining weight watchers at some point.


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## eahotson (22 July 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			I personally think she needs to change to narrative to "If horses were allowed to move naturally and not on a surface and drilled with circles and continual collected movements" she wouldn't need to run round injection hocks all the time.
		
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I


Birker2020 said:



			I personally think she needs to change to narrative to "If horses were allowed to move naturally and not on a surface and drilled with circles and continual collected movements" she wouldn't need to run round injection hocks all the time.
		
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Of course harsh and incorrect schooling will damage horses, I have seen it done.


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## TheHairyOne (22 July 2022)

I think this a very difficult and emotive question. 

I hate seeing riders who dont 'fit' either their horse or their tack due to their larger size (which may or may not be soley weight - some people carry it in very unfortunate places). However, this is subjective and an issue like this probably should not be addressed in a wholey subjective way.

It cant be simplified to a weight of rider v's height of horse, a 16hh tb is very different to a 16hh cob as we all know! Nor do i think a weight tape can be used as we all know how 'off' they can be.

Its also very hard to 'guess' someones weight.

I think i look fine on my horse, I dont think I look especially fat off my horse either. A few extra pounds carried about, but nothing too drastic looks wise - it all spreads pretty evenly. I am however not a stick and nor am i short! My horse doesnt appear to struggle. His physio is always happy with him.

Would you pull me up at a show as a welfare issue? He is just 16hh and in this pic I am over 13 stone...


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## Barton Bounty (22 July 2022)

TheHairyOne said:



			I think this a very difficult and emotive question.

I hate seeing riders who dont 'fit' either their horse or their tack due to their larger size (which may or may not be soley weight - some people carry it in very unfortunate places). However, this is subjective and an issue like this probably should not be addressed in a wholey subjective way.

It cant be simplified to a weight of rider v's height of horse, a 16hh tb is very different to a 16hh cob as we all know! Nor do i think a weight tape can be used as we all know how 'off' they can be.

Its also very hard to 'guess' someones weight.

I think i look fine on my horse, I dont think I look especially fat off my horse either. A few extra pounds carried about, but nothing too drastic looks wise - it all spreads pretty evenly. I am however not a stick and nor am i short! My horse doesnt appear to struggle. His physio is always happy with him.

Would you pull me up at a show as a welfare issue? He is just 16hh and in this pic I am over 13 stone...

View attachment 96232

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Not me, personally you look perfect on him ☺️


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## AShetlandBitMeOnce (22 July 2022)

In contrast to your post THO, this is me at 5'7 and 13.5stone on my 18.3hh warmblood. I am very long legged, and he was very narrow.. plus I have an air jacket and a racesafe on. I have picked one taken at a similar angle to yours just to highlight how not _that _different the two photos look in terms of overall rider fit...




and for those who say he wasn't 18.3, as there's always some  - here he is next to the 5ft8 physio lady..


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## sbloom (22 July 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			thanks.  I've not as I figured the gym should be sorting me out but I'll have a nosey and see what its all about.  Rider reboot is not much point as I can't ride as you know.

I was actually thinking of joining weight watchers at some point.
		
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Please don't do WW until you've thoroughly researched both options the options I mention. Rider Reboot is rider focused, but you can sign up no problem but Rebelfit may be more appropriate right now, though they run certain "missions" which start and finish, the next one (very soon I think) is a (peri)/menopause focused one.  The gym isn't addressing your relationship with food, the environmental factors that affect why your "set point weight", the weight that your body gravitates to, is higher than you'd like, exercise alone is seldom successful for weight loss, unless it's happened ONLY because someone has become sedentary, and that's rare, for most of us it's emotional, behavioural and environmental.


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## PurBee (22 July 2022)

I think in the near future rider/horse weight parameters will be legally set in the competing circles first, then the leisure industry.

As science aids in investigating what horses and other working animals can endure, coupled with a higher awareness and concern of animal welfare issues in the general public, any laws that do come into effect will likely be welcomed by most in these industries.

Afterall, we’re animal lovers, not sadists, so when the science consistently shows what we used to do was detrimental to an animal, we have to change our methods.

The studies that have been done thusfar mostly quote a 2008 Powell study that tested horses bloodwork and muscle soreness with different weights carried. At 10-15% rider weight there were no physiological changes :

”... Powell et al. (2008) subjected the horses to a submaximal mounted standard exercise test under four conditions: carrying 15, 20, 25, or 30% of their body weight. They stated that horses carrying 10-15% of their body weight (about 50-75 kg of rider's body weight) demonstrate no physiological changes [27]. Then the maximal load for a horse has been suggested to not exceed 20% of horses body weight (about 100 kg of rider's body weight) [28,29], seeing that exceeding load constituting 25% of horses body weight (about 125 kg of rider's body weight) results in the basic physiological parameters increasing and post-exercise muscle pain [27,28]. ...”

https://www.researchgate.net/public...eight-Carrying_Ability_of_Light_Riding_Horses

Other excerpts from above link of other studies following on from powell research:


“According to Powell et al. (2008), heart rates, respiration rates and rectal temperatures of light riding horses trotting at 4.8 km followed by cantering at 1.6 km were higher when carring 25% and 30% of their body weight than those with 15% and 20% weight carriage. Similarly, they reported that the horses tended to have greater changes in muscle soreness and muscle tightness when carrying 25% of their body weight, and significant changes in soreness and tightness scores were found in horses carrying 30% of their body weight (Powell et al. 2008). ...
... According to Powell et al. (2008), heart rates, respiration rates and rectal temperatures of light riding horses trotting at 4.8 km followed by cantering at 1.6 km were higher when carring 25% and 30% of their body weight than those with 15% and 20% weight carriage. Similarly, they reported that the horses tended to have greater changes in muscle soreness and muscle tightness when carrying 25% of their body weight, and significant changes in soreness and tightness scores were found in horses carrying 30% of their body weight (Powell et al. 2008). On the other hand, Sloet van Oldruitenborgh-Oosterbaan et al. (1995) showed that a load between 12.6% and 16.3% of the horse's body weight influenced heart rate and blood lactate concentration compared with the horse working unloaded in the case of Dutch Warmblood horses at trot on a treadmill. ...
... The estimation in the present study agrees with the results obtained by Powell et al. (2008) and the rule of the Japanese Imperial Army and is lower than results obtained by Hadrill (2002). Estimation by the RDA Japan, which is between 16% and 17%, is much lower than our estimation, probably because of the consideration for safety of both the disabled rider and the side-walker who helps the rider from both sides of the horse. ...”

”... However, some riders of Icelandic horses weigh over 100 kg, corresponding to~30% to 35% of BW (Stefánsdóttir et al., 2014). Powell et al. (2008) showed that horses carrying a rider corresponding to 25% or 30% of their BW had higher heart rate (HR), breathing frequency (BF) and rectal temperature (RT) than when carrying a rider corresponding to 15% and 20% of their BW. Therefore it is a welfare issue to create knowledge on how the BW of a rider affects physiological response to exercise in the Icelandic horse. ...”


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## sbloom (22 July 2022)

What they didn't address was the effect on compensatory movement patterns, which is what I see, and what causes more problems than those medical issues I would say.  Definitely good to take note of, but far from the whole picture.

I have been to a saddle fitting for a 14" saddle on a show pony where a child rider was not available.  A petite adult rode and it's the only time I've seen a horse's knees buckle at one of my saddle fittings.  I got her straight off.  They had assured me she'd been riding her fine 3 times a week for 20 minutes.  If the rider had been a stone lighter the knees might not have buckled, but there would have been negative effects that were less obvious.


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## Pearlsasinger (22 July 2022)

eahotson said:



			I am sorry but which planet are you on? Most people, even slim people on slim horses would object to that.There will be a lot of empty shows!
		
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And who is going to be monitoring the weighing? Most shows have enough trouble finding judges, stewards and entry takers without trying to find someone to tell competitors that they/their horse is overweight. Judges can make their selection based on a visual assessment of appropriateness, if they so choose.


Eta I do think that some people could/should choose their weight carriers more carefully (not aimed specifically at anyone on here)


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## Barton Bounty (22 July 2022)

AShetlandBitMeOnce said:



			In contrast to your post THO, this is me at 5'7 and 13.5stone on my 18.3hh warmblood. I am very long legged, and he was very narrow.. plus I have an air jacket and a racesafe on. I have picked one taken at a similar angle to yours just to highlight how not _that _different the two photos look in terms of overall rider fit...

View attachment 96233


and for those who say he wasn't 18.3, as there's always some  - here he is next to the 5ft8 physio lady..
View attachment 96234

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Holy moly! He is a big big boy ❤️ Stunning 😍 look at the size of his head 😂❤️
What size of shoes does he wear?
My tb has tiny feet for a big horse lol only a 3 😂


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## SmallPony (22 July 2022)

[



sbloom said:



			What they didn't address was the effect on compensatory movement patterns, which is what I see, and what causes more problems than those medical issues I would say.  Definitely good to take note of, but far from the whole picture.

I have been to a saddle fitting for a 14" saddle on a show pony where a child rider was not available.  A petite adult rode and it's the only time I've seen a horse's knees buckle at one of my saddle fittings.  I got her straight off.  They had assured me she'd been riding her fine 3 times a week for 20 minutes.  If the rider had been a stone lighter the knees might not have buckled, but there would have been negative effects that were less obvious.
		
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If the rider had a stone to lose, I'm not sure I would say they are truly petite in the  first place? 

I am 7.5 stone and have ridden small ponies for the past 15 years - I am conscious of my weight on them so I don't jump or ride for long periods, but if the alternative is a life in the field not being ridden, getting bored, fat and laminitic? As you say, there is the wider picture to consider.


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## AShetlandBitMeOnce (22 July 2022)

Barton Bounty said:



			Holy moly! He is a big big boy ❤️ Stunning 😍 look at the size of his head 😂❤️
What size of shoes does he wear?
My tb has tiny feet for a big horse lol only a 3 😂
		
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Thank you, sadly I lost him last year but he was just the best boy, I miss him everyday. He was in 7ft6 rugs, XF headcollar/brushing boots etc and my farrier often used to say I was lucky as one size bigger on his shoes and I would be paying his heavy horse premium. 😂


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## Barton Bounty (22 July 2022)

AShetlandBitMeOnce said:



			Thank you, sadly I lost him last year but he was just the best boy, I miss him everyday. He was in 7ft6 rugs, XF headcollar/brushing boots etc and my farrier often used to say I was lucky as one size bigger on his shoes and I would be paying his heavy horse premium. 😂
		
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Aww im sorry to hear that 🤦🏼‍♀️
I had a 17.2 han. His rugs were 7’/7’3 it was murder trying to get them on, my hubby made me a mounting block with three steps rather than two just to get on 😂  had one at home and one at the yard for when I had a pee stop at home 😂


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## jnb (22 July 2022)

I dare not say what I think about yet another thread bashing / goading anyone who dares to be over size 16. Which is over 50% of the female population.
I'm already almost suicidal about my weight and my horse's lameness (not related to my weight although WHY should I have to even link them?)
People are so bloody cruel


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## Barton Bounty (22 July 2022)

jnb said:



			I dare not say what I think about yet another thread bashing / goading anyone who dares to be over size 16. Which is over 50% of the female population.
I'm already almost suicidal about my weight and my horse's lameness (not related to my weight although WHY should I have to even link them?)
People are so bloody cruel
		
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yip, I am a 16 but its all boobs and bum, some think lucky but not for me lol and if i lose weight they stay lol


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## PapaverFollis (22 July 2022)

I recently went from 13 stone to 10.5 stone.  I'm not sure you can really see it in pictures of me sat on the horse.  But the horse sure as heck felt it!

Losing weight and keeping it off is hard.  We have a sh*tty food environment and a stressful general environment and it is a big fight, especially if, like me, you have rubbish genetics too.  But I decided it was one I needed to face up to for my horses' wellbeing.  Mine are a 15.2 and a 16 hh solid built cobs.  I still think 10.5 stone is a much happier weight for them than 13.  Just because they could carry more doesn't mean I should be happy to make them do so.

I run 20 plus miles a week but I still have to limit my food to two meals a day of non-processed, low sugar, minimal and unrefined grains to maintain.  I'm 5ft7 and broad shouldered and well-muscled but 10.5 stone is not a particularly low weight even so, I still have plenty of body fat and could lose another half stone without even sniffing "underweight".   I'd probably get told I was skinny but truth is we've all normalised carrying too much fat.  I really enjoy my food and was definitely addicted to sugar and am prone to comfort eating... especially as it eases my ASD related anxieties when I'm pigging out on a big bowl of pasta.   But actually I need to find healthier ways to cope!!

I get that it is hard and don't judge people for being overweight.  However I think people need to be really honest with themselves when they are about to get on a horse.


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## Bellaboo18 (22 July 2022)

jnb said:



			I dare not say what I think about yet another thread bashing / goading anyone who dares to be over size 16. Which is over 50% of the female population.
I'm already almost suicidal about my weight and my horse's lameness (not related to my weight although WHY should I have to even link them?)
People are so bloody cruel
		
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I'm sorry you feel like that and hope you can get the help you need. I also don't think anyone is bashing people for being overweight. Unfortunately though, although an emotive subject, riders weight can be a welfare concern so a worthwhile debate.


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## sbloom (22 July 2022)

SmallPony said:



			If the rider had a stone to lose, I'm not sure I would say they are truly petite in the  first place?
		
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You miss my point, if A rider is perhaps what I should have said, we needed a lighter rider, but just because the knees aren't buckling doesn't mean the horse's joints and way of going aren't being affected in a harmful way.  And I don't agree that a petite person is necessarily skinny, it's not about just weight is it?  This is the whole conversation, and we need to be careful of our language and definitions.


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## sbloom (22 July 2022)

jnb said:



			I dare not say what I think about yet another thread bashing / goading anyone who dares to be over size 16. Which is over 50% of the female population.
I'm already almost suicidal about my weight and my horse's lameness (not related to my weight although WHY should I have to even link them?)
People are so bloody cruel
		
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Please read the whole thread, almost everyone is trying their utmost to not make it personal or bashing, we are talking physics, and I, and others, are 100% addressing the emotional and many other factors that go into this being so challenging.  If you're around horses it's not a conversation you can completely avoid seeing.


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## TheHairyOne (22 July 2022)

PapaverFollis said:



			I recently went from 13 stone to 10.5 stone.  I'm not sure you can really see it in pictures of me sat on the horse.
		
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I think that statement is pretty much the point I was trying to make. How does someone play judge and jury when visually the difference can be not all that noticeable?

I also took up running and got rid of 1.5 stone, but I am 5'9 with hips and boobs and I have been below 10 (thanks glandular fever) and just looked ill!

Weight is weight and a healthy weight is easier than being overweight (for both horses and people). However, if all my spare pounds went only on my hips I would really struggle to fit in a saddle that would fit my horse. Weight distribution would be all wrong. This is almost certainly going to cause more damage than just the weight alone. 

Brings me right back to asking HOW this could be done to be fair to horses/riders and potentially the poor volunteers at these events!


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## Mrs_P (22 July 2022)

I think people absolutely have the right to be whatever size/weight they want but equally that does not entitle them to inflict that weight on another being. The horse has no say in the matter so we as their owners need to put their needs and welfare above our selfish want to ride them. I say this as someone who has struggled in the past with my own weight but I refuse to inflict it on my horse.


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## sbloom (22 July 2022)

TheHairyOne said:



			Weight is weight and a healthy weight is easier than being overweight (for both horses and people). However, if all my spare pounds went only on my hips I would really struggle to fit in a saddle that would fit my horse. Weight distribution would be all wrong. This is almost certainly going to cause more damage than just the weight alone.
		
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There are other, better, ways of spreading weight optimally on a horse than just larger/seat panels, the very best saddle fitting takes weight down the inner thighs, off the seatbones, and a little onto the pubic arch if you (like many of us) are not able to put weight on it.  Many traditional English saddles concentrate weight not only on the seatbones, but often that is also towards the back of the saddle, getting towards the weaker point of the horse's back.  I try not to fit to rider hip size, or keep it as a smaller part of the overall strategy.


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## SmallPony (22 July 2022)

sbloom said:



			You miss my point, if A rider is perhaps what I should have said, we needed a lighter rider, but just because the knees aren't buckling doesn't mean the horse's joints and way of going aren't being affected in a harmful way.  And I don't agree that a petite person is necessarily skinny, it's not about just weight is it?  This is the whole conversation, and we need to be careful of our language and definitions.
		
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Ah I get you, I thought you were referring to that rider in particular needing to be lighter if that makes sense!


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## DizzyDoughnut (22 July 2022)

I think there should be a weight limit, but I have no idea how you would work out that limit or get people to enforce it.

I bought a youngster largely because since I'd retired my riding pony a few years before and got a sedentary job and I'd piled weight on, so was to fat to ride the type and size of pony I wanted. 
So while he grows up I've got time to lose the weight and seeing him everyday is the best motivation, plus all the groundwork and in hand walking to see the world are doing me good too.

Aside from the fact he's only 3 and still to young he could probably carry me at the weight I am now but I wouldn't want him to, he's hopefully going to be with me for life and I want to give him the best chance possible of having long healthy life, I'd hate to do something now just because I could and the negative effects to possibly show up a few years down the line.


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## JumpTheMoon1 (22 July 2022)

Obese kids on little ponies are in abundance.Poor ponies - tighter rules need introducing as its cruel.
Parents are to blame  - good old common sense does not exist in most people now.


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## SO1 (22 July 2022)

There are already rider age ranges for the plaited ponies. I know just because you are a child or teenager does not been you will not be too heavy for the pony. 

I never really thought about the physics but it is a lot of weight distributed over a small saddle area and the size of the area that absorbs the weight does not change that much even on a heavier horse. A heavier horse also has to carry its own heavier weight on its legs which may be no stronger than a lightweight horse. 

Compare for example to different size and weights of tables with different size table legs and putting the weight in the middle. At what point does the table break.

Is actually the 20% a reasonable amount for heavy horses to carry in addition to their own weight considering these are draft horses built for using their weight to pull rather than carrying a heavy person.


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## palo1 (22 July 2022)

PapaverFollis said:



			I recently went from 13 stone to 10.5 stone.  I'm not sure you can really see it in pictures of me sat on the horse.  But the horse sure as heck felt it!

Losing weight and keeping it off is hard.  We have a sh*tty food environment and a stressful general environment and it is a big fight, especially if, like me, you have rubbish genetics too.  But I decided it was one I needed to face up to for my horses' wellbeing.  Mine are a 15.2 and a 16 hh solid built cobs.  I still think 10.5 stone is a much happier weight for them than 13.  Just because they could carry more doesn't mean I should be happy to make them do so.

I run 20 plus miles a week but I still have to limit my food to two meals a day of non-processed, low sugar, minimal and unrefined grains to maintain.  I'm 5ft7 and broad shouldered and well-muscled but 10.5 stone is not a particularly low weight even so, I still have plenty of body fat and could lose another half stone without even sniffing "underweight".   I'd probably get told I was skinny but truth is we've all normalised carrying too much fat.  I really enjoy my food and was definitely addicted to sugar and am prone to comfort eating... especially as it eases my ASD related anxieties when I'm pigging out on a big bowl of pasta.   But actually I need to find healthier ways to cope!!

I get that it is hard and don't judge people for being overweight.  However I think people need to be really honest with themselves when they are about to get on a horse.
		
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This; thank you for articulating that  The thing is, isn't it, that weight just IS an important factor in riding any horse.  No horse will criticise us or fatshame us lol but they still need us to be the best we can if we are going to ride them.  For some people that is 7 stone, for others 13, 16, whatever.  It really does have to be fair though.


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## RachelFerd (22 July 2022)

I went to local BD a few weeks ago and saw a rider, who actually won both classes, whose size I found actively upsetting - I did not see how they could, in good conscience, ride their horse. The horse was going well - clearly, it won both classes it went in. But there was no way that the rider was anywhere near under 20% of the mediumweight type cob that she was riding. I doubt there would be many horses for whom they would have fitted in a 20% category.

I have previously seen the same rider on a different horse pulled up part way through a dressage test. 

I did wonder for a while whether there was any means of reporting in to BD to express concerns. But after poking around for a bit I couldn't see a clear route to write in about this specifically, and talked myself down as I guess that nothing would be done. 

But I don't think you could show that to the general public and expect them to give you any kind of social license of acceptability to continue like that. They are animals with no choice in the matter of who climbs on them. We need to do better. Sport can't carry on unchecked like this.

I also think that 20% is a seriously generous amount of weight to expect horses to perform with anyway. I think 15% would be more reasonable for high intensity exercise involving jumping. I've previously seen evidence that points to anything over 10% starting to have measurable negative impact on the horse.

I understand that it is an emotive topic, but as humans we have the privilege of being able to verbally express our pain and emotions. Horses don't. 

Time to license competition riders under a better competition structure and have signed off agreement, by a vet and qualified instructor or similar, of the disciplines that partnerships are allowed to take part in. We have to get a handle on the industry in order to safeguard it for the future.


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## Hippoloosa (22 July 2022)

I know exactly who you mean, Rachel. She is popular on instagram and also rides a 14.2hh young connie that she dwarfs... If anyone calls her out they get blocked. I'm no lightweight myself but a lot smaller than her and I would never ride that baby connie.


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## Goldenstar (22 July 2022)

We need to get real personally and responsibility I worked out me on my horse the other day I am just over ten per cent but I would not dream of competing at the weight I am .
You can’t do something just because you want to .
Being overweight is a choice for the vast majority of people .
But shows can’t police this it would be impossible and unpleasant .


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## AShetlandBitMeOnce (22 July 2022)

Hippoloosa said:



			I know exactly who you mean, Rachel. She is popular on instagram and also rides a 14.2hh young connie that she dwarfs... If anyone calls her out they get blocked. I'm no lightweight myself but a lot smaller than her and I would never ride that baby connie.
		
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Is that the one who rides that hogged bay mare? Ray something or other


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## Hippoloosa (22 July 2022)

No not her, a different lady.


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## jnb (22 July 2022)

Being overweight is NOT a choice.
No one would choose the hell I live in every day. No one.

And I will not be gas lighted into believing that everyone on here is trying not to be judgemental or some not be downright nasty about it.

All this confirms to me that if my beautiful HW cob ever is show-able it wont be me doing it as I'm just not strong enough to deal with the nasty backbiting comments.
I get that some people have lost a stone, 2 or 3 because they needed to be slimmer.
No one understands the isolation of being huge and trying, trying, trying and failing to lose the 5, 6 or 7 stone they want to. Every time picking yourself up and trying to get your head in the right place to try again. And fail. Over and over.


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## Bellaboo18 (22 July 2022)

jnb said:



			Being overweight is NOT a choice.
No one would choose the hell I live in every day. No one.

And I will not be gas lighted into believing that everyone on here is trying not to be judgemental or some not be downright nasty about it.

All this confirms to me that if my beautiful HW cob ever is show-able it wont be me doing it as I'm just not strong enough to deal with the nasty backbiting comments.
I get that some people have lost a stone, 2 or 3 because they needed to be slimmer.
No one understands the isolation of being huge and trying, trying, trying and failing to lose the 5, 6 or 7 stone they want to. Every time picking yourself up and trying to get your head in the right place to try again. And fail. Over and over.
		
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To be blunt, asking your horse to carry the weight is a choice


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## TPO (22 July 2022)

AShetlandBitMeOnce said:



			Is that the one who rides that hogged bay mare? Ray something or other
		
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Oh jeez I fell down a hole on the site Tattle Life on threads about "equestrian influencers" so had a look at her page. So upsetting and everything about what's going on, that she promotes and is sponsored to promote, is just disgusting.


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## Hallo2012 (22 July 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			I went to local BD a few weeks ago and saw a rider, who actually won both classes, whose size I found actively upsetting - I did not see how they could, in good conscience, ride their horse. The horse was going well - clearly, it won both classes it went in. But there was no way that the rider was anywhere near under 20% of the mediumweight type cob that she was riding. I doubt there would be many horses for whom they would have fitted in a 20% category.

I have previously seen the same rider on a different horse pulled up part way through a dressage test.

I did wonder for a while whether there was any means of reporting in to BD to express concerns. But after poking around for a bit I couldn't see a clear route to write in about this specifically, and talked myself down as I guess that nothing would be done.

But I don't think you could show that to the general public and expect them to give you any kind of social license of acceptability to continue like that. They are animals with no choice in the matter of who climbs on them. We need to do better. Sport can't carry on unchecked like this.

I also think that 20% is a seriously generous amount of weight to expect horses to perform with anyway. I think 15% would be more reasonable for high intensity exercise involving jumping. I've previously seen evidence that points to anything over 10% starting to have measurable negative impact on the horse.

I understand that it is an emotive topic, but as humans we have the privilege of being able to verbally express our pain and emotions. Horses don't.

Time to license competition riders under a better competition structure and have signed off agreement, by a vet and qualified instructor or similar, of the disciplines that partnerships are allowed to take part in. We have to get a handle on the industry in order to safeguard it for the future.
		
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everything i wanted to say but said better!!! 100% this.


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## Winters100 (22 July 2022)

However upsetting and emotive it is for some people, surely animal welfare has to come first?  To me it is just common sense, I would not expect my horses to carry me if I was too heavy, just the same as I would not expect a small child to carry a 20kg bag of feed.  I make no judgement of anyone's size, not my business and does not change the person that they are, but choosing to ride a horse that you are too heavy for is cruel. Be whatever weight you are, but if you want to ride choose an appropriate horse.  Many of us struggle with our weight, I have to watch every single thing I eat, and I am often hungry, but for me that is what it takes to be able to ride my horses.

Edited to add that this is not about whether anyone is fat or not, it is about how much an animal can reasonably carry.  I am at the low end of a healthy BMI, but when asked to jump on a child's pony at our stable I refused because I considered myself too heavy, not too fat.  We would not expect a 12.2 to carry a rugby player, why should maximum weight not also be considered for bigger horses?


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## Mrs_P (22 July 2022)

Losing weight is certainly not easy. If it was we would all be "perfect" skinny minis. Also being overweight can certainly have a huge impact on your mental health and I sympathise with anyone who has to go through the struggle of being so unhappy with yourself but finding it difficult/impossible to change. I have definitely battled with my own demons there.
But ultimately riding is a privilege not a right. We as owners should always prioritise their welfare above our own selfish needs. Ultimately there is no excuse for doing something that puts their welfare at risks regardless of how difficult that may be for us.


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## TPO (22 July 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			I went to local BD a few weeks ago and saw a rider, who actually won both classes, whose size I found actively upsetting - I did not see how they could, in good conscience, ride their horse. The horse was going well - clearly, it won both classes it went in. But there was no way that the rider was anywhere near under 20% of the mediumweight type cob that she was riding. I doubt there would be many horses for whom they would have fitted in a 20% category.

I have previously seen the same rider on a different horse pulled up part way through a dressage test.

I did wonder for a while whether there was any means of reporting in to BD to express concerns. But after poking around for a bit I couldn't see a clear route to write in about this specifically, and talked myself down as I guess that nothing would be done.

But I don't think you could show that to the general public and expect them to give you any kind of social license of acceptability to continue like that. They are animals with no choice in the matter of who climbs on them. We need to do better. Sport can't carry on unchecked like this.

I also think that 20% is a seriously generous amount of weight to expect horses to perform with anyway. I think 15% would be more reasonable for high intensity exercise involving jumping. I've previously seen evidence that points to anything over 10% starting to have measurable negative impact on the horse.

I understand that it is an emotive topic, but as humans we have the privilege of being able to verbally express our pain and emotions. Horses don't.

Time to license competition riders under a better competition structure and have signed off agreement, by a vet and qualified instructor or similar, of the disciplines that partnerships are allowed to take part in. We have to get a handle on the industry in order to safeguard it for the future.
		
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Similarly my most haunting imagine is a nice wee cob/native type at a western show. The rider was far too heavy and was riding in a badly fitting synthetic western. According to a western fitter synthetics are meant for lightweight riders only max 9st. 

This rider went beyond the front and rear of the saddle along with the saddle literally bending in half. 

The poor horse was displaying every pain signal there is. Ears pinned, scrunched up pain face, tail swishing, attempting to bunny hop, stilted gaits and reluctance to go forward. "Isn't he cheeky??" ...

I mentioned it to someone involved with th3 club and running the show who said that's not what they're about, it's to encourage everyone to join in and have a go 😏 I actually feel sick in my stomach picturing it again. I'm sure the rider "loves" their horse very much and is clearly going to ride regardless. 

Just awful what some people feel entitled to do. 

Also a fat person who stopped riding because I felt too heavy and have so far slogged off 2st but have more to go. So I do know it's hard but everything is hard so you just have to choose what hard you're going to tackle


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## palo1 (22 July 2022)

jnb said:



			Being overweight is NOT a choice.
No one would choose the hell I live in every day. No one.

And I will not be gas lighted into believing that everyone on here is trying not to be judgemental or some not be downright nasty about it.

All this confirms to me that if my beautiful HW cob ever is show-able it wont be me doing it as I'm just not strong enough to deal with the nasty backbiting comments.
I get that some people have lost a stone, 2 or 3 because they needed to be slimmer.
No one understands the isolation of being huge and trying, trying, trying and failing to lose the 5, 6 or 7 stone they want to. Every time picking yourself up and trying to get your head in the right place to try again. And fail. Over and over.
		
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I think a lot of people understand the absolute struggle to maintain what is for them an acceptable and healthy weight (physically and mentally).  Riding a horse is a real part of that struggle though; it is a hobby that is, to a degree, dependent on being a certain weight (ie a fair weight for the horse you have).  But you don't have to ride and there are really amazing things to be done with horses without riding them; sometimes that can be a healthier approach for a rider/owner rather than the stress and worry of weight being a daily struggle.  We all need to look after ourselves and there are many ways to do that - short term and long term.  I am sorry you feel so awful about your weight.  I hope you can find a way to navigate feeling better and healthier - it really isn't easy or simple.


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## Hallo2012 (22 July 2022)

jnb said:



			Being overweight is NOT a choice.
No one would choose the hell I live in every day. No one.

And I will not be gas lighted into believing that everyone on here is trying not to be judgemental or some not be downright nasty about it.

All this confirms to me that if my beautiful HW cob ever is show-able it wont be me doing it as I'm just not strong enough to deal with the nasty backbiting comments.
I get that some people have lost a stone, 2 or 3 because they needed to be slimmer.
No one understands the isolation of being huge and trying, trying, trying and failing to lose the 5, 6 or 7 stone they want to. Every time picking yourself up and trying to get your head in the right place to try again. And fail. Over and over.
		
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if you have 5/6/7 stone to lose then you have to be realistic about whether you should be riding.

that is the reality of it.

whether your chose to be at that weight or not is not the horses concern.

surely you see that?

despite being very slim, i have very tiny ponies as my body doesn't cope well with bigger horses on a daily basis or for long hacks etc, so i still make a very conscious effort to ensure i never go past 15% including clothing and tack. i do tons of exercise, eat healthily for the most, weigh myself weekly-i OWE my ponies that. we ALL owe them that.


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## jnb (22 July 2022)

Bellaboo18 said:



			To be blunt, asking your horse to carry the weight is a choice
		
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I'm not. He's injured, and has been since last April. Nothing to do with my weight, before anyone dances on my grave
He is an appropriate size for me.
But since I'm sub-human as I am over the weight deemed on here to be acceptable to ride ANY horse at all on here I can't help but take all this personally.
This place really can be horribly and unnecessarily cruel, it really can.

So much for @sbloom post @12:25!

I'm out. Hope that makes the fat bashers happy


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## ecb89 (22 July 2022)

jnb said:



			I'm not. He's injured, and has been since last April. Nothing to do with my weight, before anyone dances on my grave
He is an appropriate size for me.
But since I'm sub-human as I am over the weight deemed on here to be acceptable to ride ANY horse at all on here I can't help but take all this personally.
This place really can be horribly and unnecessarily cruel, it really can.

So much for @sbloom post @12:25!

I'm out. Hope that makes the fat bashers happy
		
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You obviously have a lot of issues surrounding weight. At no point has anyone suggested an overweight person is sub human! 
I would suggest you take a break from the forum.


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## palo1 (22 July 2022)

jnb said:



			I'm not. He's injured, and has been since last April. Nothing to do with my weight, before anyone dances on my grave
He is an appropriate size for me.
But since I'm sub-human as I am over the weight deemed on here to be acceptable to ride ANY horse at all on here I can't help but take all this personally.
This place really can be horribly and unnecessarily cruel, it really can.

So much for @sbloom post @12:25!

I'm out. Hope that makes the fat bashers happy
		
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Please don't think anyone is bashing you for your weight; I don't think that is what this discussion is about. If it wasn't a really important debate around social licence etc we wouldn't need to have it.  As an aside, members of a tug of war team have to weigh in every time they compete.  Many, many sports have a specific focus on weight and that will always preclude some people from participating in some aspects of sport but it doesn't mean that there are not other things that can be done.


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## Upthecreek (22 July 2022)

Sorry to quote facts again but people become overweight by consuming more calories than they burn off and that is a choice. That isn’t meant to be cruel or nasty, but that is the truth. 

Lots of things we choose to do are detrimental to our health. Drinking alcohol is a choice, smoking is a choice and consuming more calories than we burn off is a choice. All of those choices have potential consequences for our health and wellbeing. But it’s when those choices are detrimental or harmful to others (people or animals) that we should be brutally honest with ourselves and really question those choices and whether it is ethical to continue to do activities which negatively impact others as a consequence.

My genetics dictate that I could very easily become overweight. The only reason I am not is because I am very careful to ensure that calories in don’t exceed calories out. It takes careful management, but it is possible. I don’t judge people who are overweight, I just think they should choose to participate in alternative activities to horse riding.


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## SEL (22 July 2022)

Upthecreek said:



			Sorry to quote facts again but people become overweight by consuming more calories than they burn off and that is a choice. That isn’t meant to be cruel or nasty, but that is the truth.
		
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Quite a bit more challenging than that for some of us on certain medications!!


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## Upthecreek (22 July 2022)

SEL said:



			Quite a bit more challenging than that for some of us on certain medications!!
		
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I’m in that boat myself so had to reduce my calorie intake and increase my exercise to mitigate. Or stop riding.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (22 July 2022)

I hate these debates and personally I think weight comments should be kept to your bloody self.

With my build I always look heavier than I am, even when I’m a 10 I look heavy when riding. Things like this are very discriminatory and are a very slippery slope.


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## GreysForDayz (22 July 2022)

PapaverFollis said:



			I recently went from 13 stone to 10.5 stone.  I'm not sure you can really see it in pictures of me sat on the horse.  But the horse sure as heck felt it!

Losing weight and keeping it off is hard.  We have a sh*tty food environment and a stressful general environment and it is a big fight, especially if, like me, you have rubbish genetics too.  But I decided it was one I needed to face up to for my horses' wellbeing.  Mine are a 15.2 and a 16 hh solid built cobs.  I still think 10.5 stone is a much happier weight for them than 13.  Just because they could carry more doesn't mean I should be happy to make them do so.

I run 20 plus miles a week but I still have to limit my food to two meals a day of non-processed, low sugar, minimal and unrefined grains to maintain.  I'm 5ft7 and broad shouldered and well-muscled but 10.5 stone is not a particularly low weight even so, I still have plenty of body fat and could lose another half stone without even sniffing "underweight".   I'd probably get told I was skinny but truth is we've all normalised carrying too much fat.  I really enjoy my food and was definitely addicted to sugar and am prone to comfort eating... especially as it eases my ASD related anxieties when I'm pigging out on a big bowl of pasta.   But actually I need to find healthier ways to cope!!

I get that it is hard and don't judge people for being overweight.  However I think people need to be really honest with themselves when they are about to get on a horse.
		
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## SEL (22 July 2022)

I too recently have seen a lady win in dressage on a good size Sec D - but she was huge and didn't really fit in the saddle. I was taken aback and had a sneaky FB stalk to find she regularly produces young horses. Recent photos winning in the show ring and commenting that they'd put up "fit not fat'" horses. The irony wasn't lost on me.

I think the more that is done to publish the effects of over weight riders on horses the better. Then it isn't personal and hopefully people can start to make the right decisions for their horse's welfare


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## RHM (22 July 2022)

I think we can all agree the 20% rule is fairly ludicrous for bigger horses. According to that my horse could happily carry 18.5 stone. Over double what she currently carries! 

Although I fundamentally believe that no one has a right to ride horses. And I’m some circumstances it is undoubtedly cruel. I couldn’t imagine how a steward could enforce this or would want to, seen as it’s such an emotive topic. I can really see how it could kick off and I wouldn’t want to be the person telling someone to go home!

I believe most people ride because they love their horse. If there was clear scientific guidance which was well publicised then that would go along way. No one seems to agree on what is appropriate, particularly when it’s adults on ponies. And if half the people on your yard are telling you it’s fine then they are the half you will understandably listen to if your desperate to ride.

In some cases it’s desperately hard to loose weight. But surely having clear guidelines would give people the clarity/goal they need. Particularly if the dangers of going over the prescribed weight limit were more well known eg risk of arthritis


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## maisie06 (22 July 2022)

I gave up riding when my weight started getting out of control. I wouldn't dream of sitting on a horse these days!


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## sbloom (22 July 2022)

Upthecreek said:



			Sorry to quote facts again but people become overweight by consuming more calories than they burn off and that is a choice. That isn’t meant to be cruel or nasty, but that is the truth.
		
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We are not bunsen burners, it absolutely is NOT that simple, and to say so IS cruel and super irritating to people.  Please go look at Rebelfit.

There was an experiment done, reported back, or carried out, by Zoe, the app.  They fed a group of people a blueberry muffin and measured their blood sugar at 3 or 4 hours, much later than had been monitored before. A significant minority spiked around 3 hours.  Those that did ate 400 calories more at their next meal...we are asking a LOT of people that they should be much stronger than everyone else and ignore what was clearly an increase in their appetite caused by their own body chemistry.  The people in the study carried on eating more calories pretty much long term than did the control group without the blood sugar issue.

Referring to calories in calories out is cruel for this reason and shows a fundamental lack of understanding of weight. 

I will not be the baddie here, I'm really sorry to upset anyone.  My OH is significantly overweight, if anyone said I was at all abusive to fat people he'd wonder if you'd met another Steph that looked like me.  Any MH issue is a massive challenge, I understand all this is triggering, but there are very few comments on here at all that are in any way cruel, in fact many are thoughtful. But when you're being triggered there's a really massive filter comes up and seeing wood for trees is tough, I'm sure we've all experienced it.

Not sure what else to say.


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## Barton Bounty (22 July 2022)

My tongue is agony 😂😂😂


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## Kat (22 July 2022)

sbloom said:



			We are not bunsen burners, it absolutely is NOT that simple, and to say so IS cruel and super irritating to people.  Please go look at Rebelfit.

There was an experiment done, reported back, or carried out, by Zoe, the app.  They fed a group of people a blueberry muffin and measured their blood sugar at 3 or 4 hours, much later than had been monitored before. A significant minority spiked around 3 hours.  Those that did ate 400 calories more at their next meal...we are asking a LOT of people that they should be much stronger than everyone else and ignore what was clearly an increase in their appetite caused by their own body chemistry.  The people in the study carried on eating more calories pretty much long term than did the control group without the blood sugar issue.

Referring to calories in calories out is cruel for this reason and shows a fundamental lack of understanding of weight. 

I will not be the baddie here, I'm really sorry to upset anyone.  My OH is significantly overweight, if anyone said I was at all abusive to fat people he'd wonder if you'd met another Steph that looked like me.  Any MH issue is a massive challenge, I understand all this is triggering, but there are very few comments on here at all that are in any way cruel, in fact many are thoughtful. But when you're being triggered there's a really massive filter comes up and seeing wood for trees is tough, I'm sure we've all experienced it.

Not sure what else to say.
		
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I would also suggest Dr Andrew Jenkinson's book "Why we eat (too much)" for a very clear explanation (supported by evidence) of why calories in/calories out is inaccurate and a gross over simplification.


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## PapaverFollis (22 July 2022)

It's really hard to explain why calories in vs calories out is kind of meaningless and often counter productive.  Certainly as anything more than a very, very crude measure.  It is so entrenched in our minds. But we are not bomb calorimeters.

Also exercise is so much less important than we are led to believe.  (Fortunately I quite enjoy running my 20 miles a week anyway, especially now I'm two stone lighter!  Plus I think it DOES help me because it gives me feel good soothing feelings that I then don't have to seek from eating...)

I recommend "Spoon-fed" by Tim Spector for his discussion on calories.   My mum took part in some of his muffin-eating twin studies... which gave me a hint about what my body might be doing with different food types and allowed me to find a way of losing and maintaining weight that is working for me.  Because my genes and probably my gut microbiome could be similar to my mum's I knew from her results that trying cutting out sugar and refined carbs would be a good thing for me to try.  It was.  I have some sweet treats now but have drastically reduced AND my tastes have changed too which has made things easier.

Weight management is complex and really quite individual.


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## Upthecreek (22 July 2022)

sbloom said:



			We are not bunsen burners, it absolutely is NOT that simple, and to say so IS cruel and super irritating to people.  Please go look at Rebelfit.

There was an experiment done, reported back, or carried out, by Zoe, the app.  They fed a group of people a blueberry muffin and measured their blood sugar at 3 or 4 hours, much later than had been monitored before. A significant minority spiked around 3 hours.  Those that did ate 400 calories more at their next meal...we are asking a LOT of people that they should be much stronger than everyone else and ignore what was clearly an increase in their appetite caused by their own body chemistry.  The people in the study carried on eating more calories pretty much long term than did the control group without the blood sugar issue.

Referring to calories in calories out is cruel for this reason and shows a fundamental lack of understanding of weight. 

I will not be the baddie here, I'm really sorry to upset anyone.  My OH is significantly overweight, if anyone said I was at all abusive to fat people he'd wonder if you'd met another Steph that looked like me.  Any MH issue is a massive challenge, I understand all this is triggering, but there are very few comments on here at all that are in any way cruel, in fact many are thoughtful. But when you're being triggered there's a really massive filter comes up and seeing wood for trees is tough, I'm sure we've all experienced it.

Not sure what else to say.
		
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I have looked at Rebelfit and it’s an online health and fitness club. Weight management achieved through healthy eating and increasing physical activity. I am sorry for being cruel or irritating to people as that was not my intention. Consistently managing the calories I consume and adjusting my physical activity accordingly has always enabled me to manage my weight. I don’t see how that is so different to what Rebelfit is advocating.


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## Lexi_ (22 July 2022)

The Diet Myth by Tim Spector is another really interesting read.


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## sbloom (22 July 2022)

Upthecreek said:



			I have looked at Rebelfit and it’s an online health and fitness club. Weight management achieved through healthy eating and increasing physical activity. I am sorry for being cruel or irritating to people as that was not my intention. Consistently managing the calories I consume and adjusting my physical activity accordingly has always enabled me to manage my weight. I don’t see how that is so different to what Rebelfit is advocating.
		
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It's really not a health and fitness club, though it can look like it at first glance, but it's not what's at the core. 

Set point weight - what weight your body gravitates to, and why.  Working with the factors that affect set point weight - emotional relationship with food, genetics, environment, habits, behaviours....mental health is at the centre of much of this.  And it's proven that physical activity is not the best way to lose weight - mind set is where to start, you clearly have that nailed, other people need much more help.

My set point weight has risen because of menopause.  Exercise, especially aerobic, would have little effect, but I should exercise more for OTHER health benefits.  As it is I have enough on my plate and I'll give myself a break for putting on a little weight - not doing so is highly likely to make me stressed, make me eat more, gain weight AND my set point rises.  For now I'll sit with it and work on the other things in my life that make me stressed.

That's how Rebelfit works.


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## sbloom (22 July 2022)

Lexi_ said:



			The Diet Myth by Tim Spector is another really interesting read.
		
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I think he's the Zoe app guy?


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## PapaverFollis (22 July 2022)

sbloom said:



			I think he's the Zoe app guy?
		
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Yes he is.


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## Dexter (22 July 2022)

AShetlandBitMeOnce said:



			Is that the one who rides that hogged bay mare? Ray something or other
		
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Ray The Goth. The fact she has a large following and has sponsorship says it all for me. The slow mo videos of her jumping are incredibly sad to watch.


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## SmallPony (22 July 2022)

Lexi_ said:



			The Diet Myth by Tim Spector is another really interesting read.
		
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Giles Yeo also has some great books - "Gene Eating" and "Why Calories Don't Count" - he narrates them both on Audible, highly recommended as a mucking out/ poo picking listen! 😊


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## Goldenstar (22 July 2022)

jnb said:



			Being overweight is NOT a choice.
No one would choose the hell I live in every day. No one.

And I will not be gas lighted into believing that everyone on here is trying not to be judgemental or some not be downright nasty about it.

All this confirms to me that if my beautiful HW cob ever is show-able it wont be me doing it as I'm just not strong enough to deal with the nasty backbiting comments.
I get that some people have lost a stone, 2 or 3 because they needed to be slimmer.
No one understands the isolation of being huge and trying, trying, trying and failing to lose the 5, 6 or 7 stone they want to. Every time picking yourself up and trying to get your head in the right place to try again. And fail. Over and over.
		
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For most it’s a choice to be overweight .
There’s nothing you can tell me about weight , the loss ,the gain , the messing with your head ,the whole merry go round .
The things you put off until you are slim I have been at this since my early teens .
If you are too heavy for your horse you should not be riding it 20% including tack is the maximum I think it reasonable to expect a horse to carry .
Horse welfare is horse welfare the fact that it’s hard to maintain a correct weight is not relevant .


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## sbloom (22 July 2022)

Goldenstar said:



			For most it’s a choice to be overweight .
There’s nothing you can tell me about weight , the loss ,the gain , the messing with your head ,the whole merry go round .
The things you put off until you are slim I have been at this since my early teens .
If you are too heavy for your horse you should not be riding it 20% including tack is the maximum I think it reasonable to expect a horse to carry .
Horse welfare is horse welfare the fact that it’s hard to maintain a correct weight is not relevant .
		
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Have you read any of the stuff we've posted about it's NOT calories in, calories out?  If it's a choice, making the right choice is 100 times easier for some people than others, people should not be beaten up for having it harder than others, they should be understood and helped.  You're just making people feel worse.


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## Goldenstar (22 July 2022)

SEL said:



			Quite a bit more challenging than that for some of us on certain medications!!
		
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That of course is very true however for most it is simple it’s a choice if you eat something or don’t .
Educating your self about health has never been easier .


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## Goldenstar (22 July 2022)

sbloom said:



			Have you read any of the stuff we've posted about it's NOT calories in, calories out?  If it's a choice, making the right choice is 100 times easier for some people than others, people should not be beaten up for having it harder than others, they should be understood and helped.  You're just making people feel worse.
		
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Insulin resistance ….if you gain weight easily you can’t eat carbs like some people can , I can’t eat blueberry muffins I would not dream of doing so .
It’s a choice if you are Insulin resistant you can choose to do something about it .


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## sbloom (22 July 2022)

Goldenstar said:



			That of course is very true however for most it is simple it’s a choice if you eat something or don’t .
Educating your self about health has never been easier .
		
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https://www.facebook.com/WeAreRebel...Uq2jWvFzU2FK5YznqKw31vi4brDcLFRrkoFjvFLwQfiFl


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## sbloom (22 July 2022)

Goldenstar said:



			Insulin resistance ….if you gain weight easily you can’t eat carbs like some people can , I can’t eat blueberry muffins I would not dream of doing so .
It’s a choice if you are Insulin resistant you can choose to do something about it .
		
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No, it's not, in the Zoe experiment it was about the timing of insulin release, the slower insulin spike caused the issue.

You have all the right stuff going on to have it relatively easy to make the choice not to eat muffins.  Have some flipping empathy and stop thinking everyone is like you.

My mother used to think overweight people were lazy, but she thinks she's lazy, and her life has been made pretty miserable because of it.  She's not lazy, she has ADHD like I do but she used that self judgement, harmful in itself, to judge the rest of the world.  It was* her* problem, not that everyone else was lazy.

She's lost all interest in food so if anything is underweight now but the executive function deficit, and her other issues in life, meant her set point weight was higher than she wanted for years and years, and she was miserable about it much of the time.  She was healthy, and her life was good in all other ways. Stressing about your weight makes you heavier.  On average.


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## Gloi (22 July 2022)

Half the show horses are carrying over 100kg extra weight 24 hours a day before a rider gets on.


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## Goldenstar (22 July 2022)

sbloom said:



			No, it's not, in the Zoe experiment it was about the timing of insulin release, the slower insulin spike caused the issue.

You have all the right stuff going on to have it relatively easy to make the choice not to eat muffins.  Have some flipping empathy and stop thinking everyone is like you.

My mother used to think overweight people were lazy, but she thinks she's lazy, and her life has been made pretty miserable because of it.  She's not lazy, she has ADHD like I do but she used that self judgement, harmful in itself, to judge the rest of the world.  It was* her* problem, not that everyone else was lazy.

She's lost all interest in food so if anything is underweight now but the executive function deficit, and her other issues in life, meant her set point weight was higher than she wanted for years and years, and she was miserable about it much of the time.  She was healthy, and her life was good in all other ways. Stressing about your weight makes you heavier.  On average.
		
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Stressing about your weight while not changing your choices condemns people to treading the same path year after year .
It’s  not necessary .


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## Goldenstar (22 July 2022)

Gloi said:



			Half the show horses are carrying over 100kg extra weight 24 hours a day before a rider gets on.
		
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An other humongous serious unacceptable issue .
I saw a wince inducing of a very large rider on a hugely fat maxi cob on Facebook last week  . The rider had the choice the poor horse has none.


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## sbloom (22 July 2022)

WHY are people not changing their choices?!!  Arrgh. 

The only thing I agree with is that riders should not weigh more than their horse can easily carry without developing compensatory movement patterns, or suffering health issues.  I agree with you all on that, but the rest, such judgemental bunkum refusing to acknowledge what is it to be human in a modern world.

I'm off, apart from paraphrasing another post higher up - "youre making really sh*tty choices but I'm not judging you".  Aren't you all lucky to be so GOOD.


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## RHM (22 July 2022)

Very interesting point regarding stress. The heaviest I’ve been was as a 17 year old, living in a very toxic environment and fairly depressed. My weight started dropping as soon as I left that environment and had been considerably lower ever since. Now I’m not going to lie and say I had a healthy relationship with food, and very clearly was overeating. Despite being in the gym hours a day I didn’t really loose. It’s certainly food for thought for those who are overweight.
I really do sympathise with those struggling. However, it doesn’t change my opinion that they should be riding if they are too heavy for the horse in question.


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## sbloom (22 July 2022)

Stress causes an unhealthy relationship with food in so many people, so glad you're out of that situation, but still kind-of blaming yourself for having that poor relationship, stop it


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## palo1 (22 July 2022)

Dexter said:



			Ray The Goth. The fact she has a large following and has sponsorship says it all for me. The slow mo videos of her jumping are incredibly sad to watch.
		
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I don't know quite how to say this but I really struggle to watch certain 'influencers' who look too big for their horses.  I have had Blog of A Cob (ellie) pointed out to me before and whilst this rider may be under the 20% threshold, it is hard to see how.  I am astounded tbf at how much support is given to that rider and I wonder what this rider thinks and feels about their weight too.  She doesn't ever seem to mention it and yet, surely, surely someone must have said somethng?  I know I have felt (and been) too big for one of my horses - both my own sense and photos led me to a weigh-in that was quite transformative so I understand the dismay but why is this not a more commonly discussed issue?  How do people get to set themselves up with sponsorship and/or as self described influencers in that situation?  If there is unethical complicity where companies know they are supporting a poor or potentially questionable welfare situation then setting up individual riders for ridicule is both unfair and ineffective surely?    How did we end up with this horrible situation where the weight of riders is widely under discussion yet it feels so personal, so pointed?


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## jt1775 (22 July 2022)

At least Ray the goth has quite a stocky cob. Instagram handle “blog of a cob” rides a small just broken Connemara pony, two medium weight heinzs and a slim warmblood type. The jumping videos are horrendous and someone in her life needs to be honest with her. She has all my sympathy if her weight is caused by an illness whether that be physical or mental, but don’t ride horses until you are lighter.


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## Dexter (22 July 2022)

I just looked. She doesnt fit in any of the saddles. They young grey shes riding is surely a welfare issue? And yet people comment about how lovely the horses are and how well she rides. I just dont get it.


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## Glitterandrainbows (22 July 2022)

I always say just because a horse or pony can carry a bigger person doesn’t mean it should


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## Goldenstar (22 July 2022)

sbloom said:



			WHY are people not changing their choices?!!  Arrgh. 

The only thing I agree with is that riders should not weigh more than their horse can easily carry without developing compensatory movement patterns, or suffering health issues.  I agree with you all on that, but the rest, such judgemental bunkum refusing to acknowledge what is it to be human in a modern world.

I'm off, apart from paraphrasing another post higher up - "youre making really sh*tty choices but I'm not judging you".  Aren't you all lucky to be so GOOD.
		
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I am not and have said I am good I am at the coal face dealing with this issue everyday , but I know that I am the only person who can influence  my choices I can effect how my body works through those choices .
A person makes hundreds of choices everyday about eating / food of course some people have a robust system less likely to develop metabolic issues that’s luck .
Take a look on YouTube at what Professor Spector eats a day that’s the diet of someone less blessed than others in the Insulin sensitivity stakes he eats accordingly.


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## sbloom (22 July 2022)

Shouting into the void.


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## Glitterandrainbows (22 July 2022)

Shouting what into the void?


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## Upthecreek (22 July 2022)

sbloom said:



			It's really not a health and fitness club, though it can look like it at first glance, but it's not what's at the core. 

Set point weight - what weight your body gravitates to, and why.  Working with the factors that affect set point weight - emotional relationship with food, genetics, environment, habits, behaviours....mental health is at the centre of much of this.  And it's proven that physical activity is not the best way to lose weight - mind set is where to start, you clearly have that nailed, other people need much more help.

My set point weight has risen because of menopause.  Exercise, especially aerobic, would have little effect, but I should exercise more for OTHER health benefits.  As it is I have enough on my plate and I'll give myself a break for putting on a little weight - not doing so is highly likely to make me stressed, make me eat more, gain weight AND my set point rises.  For now I'll sit with it and work on the other things in my life that make me stressed.

That's how Rebelfit works.
		
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Rebelfit describes itself on it's own Facebook page and website as an online health and fitness club.

You have accused me of being judgemental yet you have done exactly that to me. I don’t have anything “nailed” as you put it. I’m a frazzled mum of 3 with a full-time job and elderly parents to care for. I have a life limiting incurable health condition which means I will have to take medication for the rest of my life. I am experiencing awful peri menopause symptoms so recently started HRT, which causes it’s own issues! My life is stressful and difficult and I don’t have it all worked out, far from it! 

But I know being overweight would be bad for my horses and if I want to ride I owe it to them to manage my weight. Alternatively I can stop actively managing my weight and stop riding. That’s the choice.


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## Glitterandrainbows (22 July 2022)

@Upthecreek well said!


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## sbloom (22 July 2022)

I'm pretty Buddhist about these things, we all have our own suffering and no-ones is better or worse, and I'm sorry you have all that on your plate.

I am going on what you said, and having something nailed doesn't mean it's not hard work.  But you having it nailed, finding something that works for you, doesn't mean it will work for everyone else.  I don't see anything judgemental about saying this "The only reason I am not is because I am very careful to ensure that calories in don’t exceed calories out. It takes careful management, but it is possible. " means you have this particular aspect of your life nailed, as much as any of us nail anything.


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## sbloom (22 July 2022)

"You're too heavy to ride your horse, it is a welfare issue but you are not a bad person because of it.  It's not simple, it's not easy, and it's not about dieting.  It's about building a better relationship with food, but first is likely to be your situation with stress and how it affects you.  By dealing with that, your environment, your genetics, your influences, your emotions....we should be able to find ways to help you be happier and less stressed.  Then we can help you learn to eat a normal diet without guilt, and without huge ongoing stress.  This in itself may be enough to reduce your set point weight.

"Then, if you want to be healthier, we can get you doing more exercise.  You might lose weight, you might not.  If you are doing exercise, have a great relationship with food, but aren't losing weight, then maybe we can look at some nutritional planning to help you learn to control your weight, and have tools for when you gain weight.  But the biggest issue then is not to feel stressed because you've gained weight, accept it's a normal part of life, and just redo the work to reset your set point weight.

"Oh and if menopause is possibly the biggest factor affecting your weight, let's use that as a filter for the above process, as your solutions may be slightly different to someone not going through peri/menopause".

If that's a health and fitness club then so be it.


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## Kat (22 July 2022)

Bloody hell some of those Instagram pages! Those poor horses. 

Not particularly unusual sadly. I was out at a pleasure ride recently, on a hot day in hilly country and the number of grossly overweight cobs carrying overweight women who were overspilling their saddles was very sad. 


I am struggling to get my weight down for my horse as I am closer than I would like to 20% and I feel quite worried about being judged as too heavy. I don't know how these people can post so publicly and seek out extra followers.


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## Goldenstar (22 July 2022)

Kat said:



			Bloody hell some of those Instagram pages! Those poor horses. 

Not particularly unusual sadly. I was out at a pleasure ride recently, on a hot day in hilly country and the number of grossly overweight cobs carrying overweight women who were overspilling their saddles was very sad. 


I am struggling to get my weight down for my horse as I am closer than I would like to 20% and I feel quite worried about being judged as too heavy. I don't know how these people can post so publicly and seek out extra followers.
		
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It’s been normalised , for horses and people that’s why .


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## RachelFerd (22 July 2022)

Kat said:



			Bloody hell some of those Instagram pages! Those poor horses.

Not particularly unusual sadly. I was out at a pleasure ride recently, on a hot day in hilly country and the number of grossly overweight cobs carrying overweight women who were overspilling their saddles was very sad.


I am struggling to get my weight down for my horse as I am closer than I would like to 20% and I feel quite worried about being judged as too heavy. I don't know how these people can post so publicly and seek out extra followers.
		
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I'm so shocked to see that the rider that I saw out competing is active on Instagram... I sort of feel that it's very bad for equestrianism as a whole that can happen unchecked.


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## scats (22 July 2022)

The calories in v energy spent isn’t perfect, but it’s a good place to start, although I am aware that some people have factors that don’t make this as easy. Unfortunately there will be people who have to cut back on calories more than others.  And I recognise that that’s very hard.  I couldn’t care less what size people want to be, but I do stand by the fact that the welfare of the horse must come before our own feelings.

Just a little side note, when I was put onto one of my medications, I gained nearly 2 stone over a period of about 2 years.  I was still within the healthy BMI but I felt far too large for me.  My usual ‘cut back’ on a few things just wasn’t working, so I had to sit down and really look at my meals.  I was shocked at actually how little calories a human needs to function.  If you work out 1500-2000 calories into three meals, they are really very tiny and it doesn’t allow for very much inbetween.  I realised that actually, I had been overeating, even if I didn’t realise it.  Prior to the medication, I got away with it, I’d gain a few pounds and then cut the snacks out and get that off within a week.  But that wasn’t working anymore so I had to be very, very strict with myself.
It was a total change for me and it was hard to get my head around.

A lot of pubs now put the calories on their meals on menus and that’s quite an eye opener!


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## eahotson (22 July 2022)

There is more to this than simple weight, within certain parameters of course, those pics at the beginning of the thread are truly hideous and defy even simple common sense.
There is saddle fit.Many people think they can fit saddles and haven't got a clue.I let a "friend" who was a riding instructor fit one for me because she assured me that she knew all about it.It swung on his shoulders and gave no end of problems.Had to get physio out and proper saddle fitter. Bought another horse off a riding school, saddle included which he was ridden in very regularly.Too small it turns out and with a broken tree (I was very ignorant at that time) and another who told me that the equine college she was at taught them to fit saddles.She had a little cob, was very large and she sat on the cantle.I could include more.
My last horse was a 14'3 ish Welsh cob.Passed a five star vetting ha ha.Got him home.Noticed the patches of muscle wastage on his back. He came with a saddle.Physio first call.She said he was stiff from the tip of his ears to the root of his tail.After physio his one quarter dropped and he carried his tail to one side.It took over two years of physio, a correctly fitting saddle and some very patient correct schooling from my instructor to put that right.We did get it right though.
I saw one young warmblood nearly destroyed by his very slim rider because of the harsh and incorrect schooling he had.He had to be retired at the age of eight.


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## eahotson (22 July 2022)

scats said:



			The calories in v energy spent isn’t perfect, but it’s a good place to start, although I am aware that some people have factors that don’t make this as easy. Unfortunately there will be people who have to cut back on calories more than others.  And I recognise that that’s very hard.  I couldn’t care less what size people want to be, but I do stand by the fact that the welfare of the horse must come before our own feelings.

Just a little side note, when I was put onto one of my medications, I gained nearly 2 stone over a period of about 2 years.  I was still within the healthy BMI but I felt far too large for me.  My usual ‘cut back’ on a few things just wasn’t working, so I had to sit down and really look at my meals.  I was shocked at actually how little calories a human needs to function.  If you work out 1500-2000 calories into three meals, they are really very tiny and it doesn’t allow for very much inbetween.  I realised that actually, I had been overeating, even if I didn’t realise it.  Prior to the medication, I got away with it, I’d gain a few pounds and then cut the snacks out and get that off within a week.  But that wasn’t working anymore so I had to be very, very strict with myself.
It was a total change for me and it was hard to get my head around.

A lot of pubs now put the calories on their meals on menus and that’s quite an eye opener!
		
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I like that they put the calorie counter on menus now but I do think as well that we are bigger and heavier than previous generations because we have better housing, better diet and better health care.If you go to the far East you often see very tiiny adults.I particularly noticed this in Vietnam where the generation who had lived through what they call the "American War" where food had been very scarce were very small.Subsequent generations were bigger and heavier.


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## Floofball (22 July 2022)

Maybe riding clubs/shows/organisations can add to their rules that if a rider looks underhorsed for any reason they could be asked to be weighed with a 20% max including tack (although still seems a lot to ask in some scenarios 🤷‍♀️) The onus would then be on the rider to make sure they were within acceptable tolerances ‘just in case’. Surely promoting equine welfare should be at the forefront of any of these organisations? 
I struggle with my weight and have a lovely 16.3 lightweight hunter. These are classed as being able to carry 13st so that is my guideline. Maybe it would help to have weight guidance for more classes/disciplines?
I think if it’s made common knowledge/promoted that a certain rider weight % is detrimental to the horse/pony by said organisations then it could be introduced. Riding schools/holidays etc have a weight limit?
 I don’t see the issue as ‘fat bashing’ but a ‘your too big/heavy’ 
BTW currently cutting out bread, wine, beer and chocolate in an attempt to ride said lovely horse!!!


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## fetlock (22 July 2022)

I can understand some posters taking comments personally in the thread as to take the higher ground as to how well you may do in terms of keeping your own weight down, is a tad unfair and quite sanctimonious. It isn't always that straightforward. Meds, hormones, menopause, shot to pieces metabolism, disability etc etc can make it extremely difficult to avoid gaining weight, or shifting it once gained.

On saying that, if somone is carrying a bit of excess weight and _can_ get their weight down by cutting back on food, changing what they eat and/or exercising for the comfort of their horse then great. If they are unable to for whatever reason, they do need to be realistic and either buy a more weight carrying horse if it does come to that. If they can't, then don't ride. The horse absolutely has to come first. It's as simple as that.


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## scats (22 July 2022)

eahotson said:



			I like that they put the calorie counter on menus now but I do think as well that we are bigger and heavier than previous generations because we have better housing, better diet and better health care.If you go to the far East you often see very tiiny adults.I particularly noticed this in Vietnam where the generation who had lived through what they call the "American War" where food had been very scarce were very small.Subsequent generations were bigger and heavier.
		
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For me, the calorie thing on menus is a bit off putting.  I rarely ever go for a meal, so the reality is when I do, I want to eat without thinking too much about it or feeling guilty.  I have changed my choice of food based on the calories on the menu, purposefully not eaten a pudding and still felt guilty afterwards.  
But I understand why they do it.


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## RachelFerd (22 July 2022)

scats said:



			For me, the calorie thing on menus is a bit off putting.  I rarely ever go for a meal, so the reality is when I do, I want to eat without thinking too much about it or feeling guilty.  I have changed my choice of food based on the calories on the menu, purposefully not eaten a pudding and still felt guilty afterwards. 
But I understand why they do it.
		
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I find the calories on menus really really helpful. I eat out a lot for various reasons, making sensible choices is so much easier when I can see the actual facts in front of me.


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## scats (22 July 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			I find the calories on menus really really helpful. I eat out a lot for various reasons, making sensible choices is so much easier when I can see the actual facts in front of me.
		
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I wish there was a little flap you could lift up if you want to see the calories or keep closed if you really don’t  😂


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## eahotson (22 July 2022)

scats said:



			For me, the calorie thing on menus is a bit off putting.  I rarely ever go for a meal, so the reality is when I do, I want to eat without thinking too much about it or feeling guilty.  I have changed my choice of food based on the calories on the menu, purposefully not eaten a pudding and still felt guilty afterwards. 
But I understand why they do it.
		
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Fair enough.Despite everything I tend to eat what I want because,like you,I don't eat out very often.


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## maggiestar (22 July 2022)

My old riding school had a blanket weight limit of 12 stone. Bearing in mind the horses had to carry a lot of unbalanced beginners, I think that was fair. I remember weighing myself once and being shocked to find I had crept up to just over 11 stone and thinking 'crikey, I'd better try and lose a bit' even though I cycled everywhere and ate quite healthily.
Our metabolism changes all the time due to factors such as age and health (physical and mental). It's no surprise that we're bigger than previous generations when you look at how little time some of us have to cook from scratch or even walk to work. So I have no judgement of anyone's size and I feel very sad to read how it affects some people here. Riding is therapeutic so I get how difficult it is to hear weight mentioned in relation to horse welfare, especially if it means having to give up something that gives such happiness. But ultimately we are the intelligent ones. We have choices. My sympathy is always with the horse in this situation. We can't always get what we want! I don't ride anymore btw, I know I'm too heavy these days.


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## Goldenstar (22 July 2022)

I like the calorie counters on menus I met one for the first time in London recently 
I will never eat an eggs Benedict again 😳


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## Goldenstar (22 July 2022)

On Genes people had the same Genes in the fifties and looking at news film reel is enlightening .
I used to collect China from the 1950s the plate sizes also tell a tale


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## SO1 (22 July 2022)

A lot of brands are looking for ambassadors that resemble "real people" rather than skinny blondes on SJ's or dressage horses. 

It is probably massively easy to get these opportunities as brands try and diversify their marketing. Ray the Goth she is an ambassador for Forelock and Fringe I think which I subcribe to and I can see why they have gone for her as there are a lot of cob owners and larger riders out there who have money to spend. 

A local professional dressage rider has started a new clothing range and the marketing is very focused at riders of all sizes. For a brand to succeed they have to be seen to include larger riders in their advertising now, I do think companies are missing a trick by often not including older riders, ageism is still there in some respects there are plenty of over 50s with horses and spending power but perhaps less influenced by social media adds.

One of my friends is large and has tried all sorts of diets and exercise plans over the years and has also invested in liposuction. However it turned out she had a medical condition.   Lipoedema which was the reason the interventions were not as successful as they would be in a normal person. She does a lot of awareness raising and feels it is more common that people think.  She doesn't ride horses or have horses she likes cats. 

https://www.lipoedema.co.uk/about-lipoedema/symptoms/

As someone who is 8 stone I don't feel massively comfortable commenting on weight but I am an adult on a pony as I don't feel confident riding horses. If I got too heavy for ponies I wouldn't buy a horse I am only 5.1ft. 




palo1 said:



			I don't know quite how to say this but I really struggle to watch certain 'influencers' who look too big for their horses.  I have had Blog of A Cob (ellie) pointed out to me before and whilst this rider may be under the 20% threshold, it is hard to see how.  I am astounded tbf at how much support is given to that rider and I wonder what this rider thinks and feels about their weight too.  She doesn't ever seem to mention it and yet, surely, surely someone must have said somethng?  I know I have felt (and been) too big for one of my horses - both my own sense and photos led me to a weigh-in that was quite transformative so I understand the dismay but why is this not a more commonly discussed issue?  How do people get to set themselves up with sponsorship and/or as self described influencers in that situation?  If there is unethical complicity where companies know they are supporting a poor or potentially questionable welfare situation then setting up individual riders for ridicule is both unfair and ineffective surely?    How did we end up with this horrible situation where the weight of riders is widely under discussion yet it feels so personal, so pointed?
		
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## Kat (22 July 2022)

Goldenstar said:



			On Genes people had the same Genes in the fifties and looking at news film reel is enlightening .
I used to collect China from the 1950s the plate sizes also tell a tale
		
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They had the same genes but the food available was very different. 

Ultra processed foods, trans fats, artificial sweeteners and hidden sugar have a huge amount to answer for in the obesity epidemic. Then there is the erroneous advice on low fat diets that is still peddled.


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## Kat (22 July 2022)

SO1 said:



			A lot of brands are looking for ambassadors that resemble "real people" rather than skinny blondes on SJ's or dressage horses. 

It is probably massively easy to get these opportunities as brands try and diversify their marketing. Ray the Goth she is an ambassador for Forelock and Fringe I think which I subcribe to and I can see why they have gone for her as there are a lot of cob owners and larger riders out there who have money to spend. 

A local professional dressage rider has started a new clothing range and the marketing is very focused at riders of all sizes. For a brand to succeed they have to be seen to include larger riders in their advertising now, I do think companies are missing a trick by often not including older riders, ageism is still there in some respects there are plenty of over 50s with horses and spending power but perhaps less influenced by social media adds.

One of my friends is large and has tried all sorts of diets and exercise plans over the years and has also invested in liposuction. However it turned out she had a medical condition.   Lipoedema which was the reason the interventions were not as successful as they would be in a normal person. She does a lot of awareness raising and feels it is more common that people think.  She doesn't ride horses or have horses she likes cats. 

https://www.lipoedema.co.uk/about-lipoedema/symptoms/

As someone who is 8 stone I don't feel massively comfortable commenting on weight but I am an adult on a pony as I don't feel confident riding horses. If I got too heavy for ponies I wouldn't buy a horse I am only 5.1ft.
		
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There are influencers out there who look like "real people" without being a welfare concern. Wimpy Eventer is a good one who people will have heard of, not fat, just a normal woman having normal battles with her body. I love that she's prepared to show her post baby tummy and efforts to shed the baby weight. Christa from Blackhill eventing is another who looks like a normal relatable person but isn't too big for her horses. 

I would be put off a brand that used someone like Ray the Goth as it reflects so badly on their ethics and values.


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## PurBee (22 July 2022)

I carried a rucksack mounted piece of agricultural equipment today on my back that is 20% my weight - in use i mostly am stationary, shuffling around very small slow steps. When i finished 1 hr of that i then walked normal pace 100m to the horses gate to bring them in. By the time i got to them i was exhausted by that 100m walk with that weight on my back, and was reminded of this thread. 

We’re lucky, having an upright spine. My shoulders still ache 2 hrs later, im fit and ‘healthy’. I dont look sore , unhappy or exhausted, and if i was a horse that couldnt speak and tell you my muscles ache, youd put the rucksack on me tomorrow - and being fit, i would manage it, but accumulation of muscle soreness is what i personally experience from repetitive physical exercise, so prefer to switch jobs, so i dont experience too much muscle pain. A bit like how we hack, then do flat work, then jumping, to allow horses to work different muscle groups, while recovering from previous days work - but the saddle and rider weight dont change day to day and those muscles are therefore most important to look after and the associated biomechanics of the rest of their physical structures.

This  thread made me consider how i would have managed that weight on my back if i was on all fours, with my spine acting as a suspension bridge rather than an upright pillar, i dont think i could have used the machinery for more than 5 mins tbh! 10% would have been far easier in either position. 
Its astounding the weight horses can carry, and because of them being so compliant mostly towards mankind, its easy for us to abuse their willingness to ‘indulge’ us.

Human weight struggles is a complex subject and it would be sooo easy if calories were all we had to watch to reach ideal weight. Ive known very over weight friends starve to reach (non equine) goals, and get nowhere. Its heartbreaking to be in that position with personal body weight. The issue of how much weight a horse can comfortably carry should never be taken personally. This is soley about understanding what a horse can comfortably carry on its back, be that a person, or any other load, so their health and physical structure isn’t damaged by the load. 
This discussion is essentially about equine biomechanics, and if we come to understand that to a precise degree, should we enforce that knowledge in the equine riding industry for horse welfare reasons? I personally believe we should because i value equines, and support changes in the industry that improves their welfare on health grounds, whether i was 20 or 6 stone. My weight is irrelevant to this discussion, this is about horses.


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## Ali27 (22 July 2022)

I’ve got the most amazing cob x 14.2 who is a little chunky, pocket rocket! I always had a 10 stone weight limit with her but shockingly my weight crept up to 10.8 stone! I’m 5ft 6 so wasn’t massively overweight! I was already doing the gym 3-4 times a week, riding 5-6 times a week and a generally active life style! I signed up with a different gym and did an 8 week transformation programme! I lost over a stone! Now 9 stone 6 and pony much happier! I had to completely overhaul my eating! I cut out all junk food, alcohol and added lots of protein to meals//snacks. It was so easy to do and I love being back to a size 8//0 and that my pony is much happier 😍


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## Winters100 (22 July 2022)

sbloom said:



			Have you read any of the stuff we've posted about it's NOT calories in, calories out?  If it's a choice, making the right choice is 100 times easier for some people than others, people should not be beaten up for having it harder than others, they should be understood and helped.  You're just making people feel worse.
		
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I totally agree that getting to and maintaining a healthy weight is much easier for some than others, but I do not think that anyone here is beating others up about their weight.  If you are too heavy for the horse then you are just too heavy, does not matter whether the extra weight is fat, or muscle from body-building, it is just a fact that animals, just as humans, have limits to what they can do without pain.

Regarding calories in / calories out I would consider it to be a fact. After all if not then in famine situations some would not lose weight.  Of course it is more difficult for some, and I truly understand this as I am able to consume relatively few calories and hardly any carbs to stay at the weight that I want to be, but the fact remains that we do choose what we eat. There are all sorts of reasons that this is difficult to people, and those who struggle with it have my sympathy, but we make choices every day with our horses, whether to ride, which saddle, which bit, how much turnout - they choose none of these things, so the least we can do is to keep their interests at heart when making our decisions.


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## Regandal (23 July 2022)

The book ‘Glucose Revolution’ by Jessie Inchaupsie is illuminating. Everyone should read it, whether you want to lose weight or not. The link between insulin spikes and adverse health conditions is well documented and she gives lots of easy hacks to avoid them. I should be on commission, I recommend it to everyone I know 😁


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## southerncomfort (23 July 2022)

Goldenstar said:



			On Genes people had the same Genes in the fifties and looking at news film reel is enlightening .
I used to collect China from the 1950s the plate sizes also tell a tale
		
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I was thinking about this recently.

We bought a new dinner set and some matching pasta bowls.  The dinner plates are huge, we can barely fit them in the dishwasher!

I hadn't realised how much pasta we'd been eating until I tipped the contents of a pasta bowl on to an older standard sized dinner plate!

 I suspect a lot of people do eat very healthily but don't realise the huge portions they're eating through no fault of their own. 

Other things like a takeout coffee can add significantly to your daily calories.

I also completely disagree with the person who said that exercise isn't relevant to losing weight. If I've had a week where I haven't been for my usual walks or gone for a run I notice my weight starting to creep up.

Also, exercise has so many other benefits from lower risk of heart problems, cancer etc to improved mental health. I think it's hugely important.

Regarding horses maybe as a start a pre purchase vetting could include the vets opinion on maximum weight the horse could carry.


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## danda (23 July 2022)

What actions do you take if your horse is overweight? Try the same for yourself if you are overweight .


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## PapaverFollis (23 July 2022)

You can disagree all you like about the importance of exercise in weightloss but what comes out of research is that it isnt very!  I never said it wasn't beneficial either. It is very important for health.  Everyone should probably exercise more.  It is just not a huge contributer to weight loss.  Especially if you end up eating to fuel it, or drinking "sports drinks".  For some people it is more effective as they don't get the drive to eat more to compensate for the exercise.  But most people will get an increase in appetite.  And since half an hour of most types of exercise only burns about 300 calories it is very easy to just eat away the potential weight loss without even noticing.  Even if you count calories because those things are pretty darn inaccurate.

The main thing I got out of reading the Tim Spector book is that everyone is different.  So maybe you're an exercise responder who doesn't get an over-compensation in appetite for the work done in exercise. But for many people they do get that and exercise has little effect.

I lost about half a stone just from running to start with but then it started to creep back on even as I was increasing the amount I was doing.  I didn't shift the other two stone until I seriously tackled my diet.  And while I was dieting I stopped running completely and picked it up again once I'd lost the weight... running much faster for the same effort as well.  Now I think of it as keeping the weight off in order to run, rather than running to keep the weight off and have managed to curb the over-compensatory eating I was doing.  I can do the running I do without any extra food.  I'm not relying on carbs for energy in the same way as I was.  I'm not getting sugar crashes on long runs or walks.   I'd started having to take a cereal bar with me on a six mile walk previously!  Such was the rubbishness of my sugar metabolism!  Now I can run nine miles without even needing a drink of water.  Or eating anything extra before or after.

Fundamental changes.  Our whole food environment and knowledge base is so screwy.  It is uncomfortable to realise this. I have spent a lot of years banging the calories in vs calories out drum.  I've also spent a lot of years getting fatter and fatter no matter how hard I tried... or how much exercise I did.

It's fine to disagree and I understand why.  Exercise IS very important and beneficial in lots of ways.  It doesn't make sense that it wouldn't help.  Of course it helps, surely.  Unfortunately that's not what research points to. :-/ I half don't believe it myself to be honest but as a statement it appears to be well supported by the data.


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## Miss_Millie (23 July 2022)

The videos on Blog of a Cob's page are sad to watch. It looks like a lot of her weight is hitting the back of the cantle and in some of the footage, the horses do look short behind imo. 

Like many others have said, pointing out that someone is too big or heavy for their horse is not personal or fat shaming. It is a welfare issue if a horse is made to carry a rider that is not the appropriate size for their backs.

Ray the Goth's cob is overweight, having to carry a rider who is too heavy on top of carrying her own excess bodyweight must be such a strain.

It worries me that anyone who points this out, is immediately shut down as being a nasty fat shamer. These conversations need to be had, for the sake of many horses who are burdened with too heavy a rider.


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## eahotson (23 July 2022)

PurBee said:



			I carried a rucksack mounted piece of agricultural equipment today on my back that is 20% my weight - in use i mostly am stationary, shuffling around very small slow steps. When i finished 1 hr of that i then walked normal pace 100m to the horses gate to bring them in. By the time i got to them i was exhausted by that 100m walk with that weight on my back, and was reminded of this thread.

We’re lucky, having an upright spine. My shoulders still ache 2 hrs later, im fit and ‘healthy’. I dont look sore , unhappy or exhausted, and if i was a horse that couldnt speak and tell you my muscles ache, youd put the rucksack on me tomorrow - and being fit, i would manage it, but accumulation of muscle soreness is what i personally experience from repetitive physical exercise, so prefer to switch jobs, so i dont experience too much muscle pain. A bit like how we hack, then do flat work, then jumping, to allow horses to work different muscle groups, while recovering from previous days work - but the saddle and rider weight dont change day to day and those muscles are therefore most important to look after and the associated biomechanics of the rest of their physical structures.

This  thread made me consider how i would have managed that weight on my back if i was on all fours, with my spine acting as a suspension bridge rather than an upright pillar, i dont think i could have used the machinery for more than 5 mins tbh! 10% would have been far easier in either position.
Its astounding the weight horses can carry, and because of them being so compliant mostly towards mankind, its easy for us to abuse their willingness to ‘indulge’ us.

Human weight struggles is a complex subject and it would be sooo easy if calories were all we had to watch to reach ideal weight. Ive known very over weight friends starve to reach (non equine) goals, and get nowhere. Its heartbreaking to be in that position with personal body weight. The issue of how much weight a horse can comfortably carry should never be taken personally. This is soley about understanding what a horse can comfortably carry on its back, be that a person, or any other load, so their health and physical structure isn’t damaged by the load.
This discussion is essentially about equine biomechanics, and if we come to understand that to a precise degree, should we enforce that knowledge in the equine riding industry for horse welfare reasons? I personally believe we should because i value equines, and support changes in the industry that improves their welfare on health grounds, whether i was 20 or 6 stone. My weight is irrelevant to this discussion, this is about horses.
		
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Most of us are a) Not that fit. To put it in proportion my mother, second world war generation remembered her teacher walking five miles to the school each day and five miles back and then of course did other walking and activities.No one would have thought that was exceptional at the time.
Secondly very fit soldiers can carry 20% of their body weight easily but they are very fit and have been conditioned to do it.
Most sensible people wouldn't take a newly backed horse and expect it to do an hours hack or schooling.


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## stangs (23 July 2022)

eahotson said:



			Most sensible people wouldn't take a newly backed horse and expect it to do an hours hack or schooling.
		
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But people do expect a newly backed horse to carry 20% of its body weight just like that, with no conditioning to learn to carry weight on what is a seriously vulnerable part of the body when the horse is unable to lift their back.

That's like if people tried to build up their biceps by only increasing the number of curls, but using 40kg from the beginning. No human athlete in their right mind would follow such a workout plan, and yet this is how we train equine athletes.

The vast majority of modern horses aren't in the cavalry, so why do owners still use these military methods, which were designed for a time where horses needed to get trained quick, and were largely disposable?


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## Goldie's mum (23 July 2022)

Take it as read that I empathise about your weight issues ... Anyhoooow.....
_*"Should there be a weight limit for people at shows"*_
An example
_If Connemaras are required to remain 14-2 or shorter and are kept at an appropriate weight so they don’t develop laminitis, it’s safe to assume they are in the 750- to 800-pound range. (American Connemara soc. )_
This gives a combined rider & tack weight of 160 lbs maximum(20%).
(Figures based on the Japanese Vet. School data quoted in previous posts.)
Take off a medium weight saddle & the ballpark is a maximum dressed rider weight of 10 stone 10lbs.
(This is an absolute maximum & for showing not jumping)

Yes enforcement would be a nightmare but would it be necessary? Don't you think that if the show entry had a weight limit on it that most people would self-police rather than risk being pulled out of the ring to be weighed? I do think most people have no idea what weight their horse can comfortably carry & giving out some (even vague) numbers would help.


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## eahotson (23 July 2022)

stangs said:



			But people do expect a newly backed horse to carry 20% of its body weight just like that, with no conditioning to learn to carry weight on what is a seriously vulnerable part of the body when the horse is unable to lift their back.

That's like if people tried to build up their biceps by only increasing the number of curls, but using 40kg from the beginning. No human athlete in their right mind would follow such a workout plan, and yet this is how we train equine athletes.

The vast majority of modern horses aren't in the cavalry, so why do owners still use these military methods, which were designed for a time where horses needed to get trained quick, and were largely disposable?
		
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They shouldn't be if the top line has been properly prepared.The cavalary were very good horsemen.


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## Cortez (23 July 2022)

stangs said:



			But people do expect a newly backed horse to carry 20% of its body weight just like that, with no conditioning to learn to carry weight on what is a seriously vulnerable part of the body when the horse is unable to lift their back.

The vast majority of modern horses aren't in the cavalry, so why do owners still use these military methods, which were designed for a time where horses needed to get trained quick, and were largely disposable?
		
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Horses being properly prepared for breaking won’t have “no conditioning”, they should undergo at least several weeks of unmounted  gymnastics training aimed at working the muscles - and particularly the back and loin muscles - in preparation for carrying a light rider.

Cavalry training was developed to produce useable mounts, and far from being “quick” was actually considerably longer than most modern breaking regimes.


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## AShetlandBitMeOnce (23 July 2022)

SO1 said:



			A local professional dressage rider has started a new clothing range and the marketing is very focused at riders of all sizes. For a brand to succeed they have to be seen to include larger riders in their advertising now,
.
		
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To be fair I don't think that making larger riding clothes is a huge problem as someone who is a size 16 and 5ft could easily be 13 stone or less.. If they're a size 16 and 6ft then it is likely that they will be too heavy to ride.. also someone may be a 16 on the bottom due to carrying weight on their hips, but then be a size 10 on top with slim arms and trunk. We need to be conscious that we don't equate size to weight, people can be very different shapes and be the same weight.

Also calories in vs calories out is fact, it is physics.. not opinion or a diet concept.. If you manipulate the calories in by changing food group, or you need less calories in because you are menopausal and your metabolism has changed, that is still calories in vs calories out (or a calorie deficit). Intermittent fasting, the blood sugar diet, low carb, low fat, keto, increasing exercise etc etc is all just varying ways of creating a calorie deficit, or shifting the balance of the calories in vs out. Just because something in your body dictates that balance, it doesn't mean that the scientific equation changes.


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## Barton Bounty (23 July 2022)

AShetlandBitMeOnce said:



			To be fair I don't think that making larger riding clothes is a huge problem as someone who is a size 16 and 5ft could easily be 13 stone or less.. If they're a size 16 and 6ft then it is likely that they will be too heavy to ride.. also someone may be a 16 on the bottom due to carrying weight on their hips, but then be a size 10 on top with slim arms and trunk. We need to be conscious that we don't equate size to weight, people can be very different shapes and be the same weight.

Also calories in vs calories out is fact, it is physics.. not opinion or a diet concept.. If you manipulate the calories in by changing food group, or you need less calories in because you are menopausal and your metabolism has changed, that is still calories in vs calories out (or a calorie deficit). Intermittent fasting, the blood sugar diet, low carb, low fat, keto, increasing exercise etc etc is all just varying ways of creating a calorie deficit, or shifting the balance of the calories in vs out. Just because something in your body dictates that balance, it doesn't mean that the scientific equation changes.
		
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☝🏻Thats me, the short one 😂


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## marmalade76 (23 July 2022)

rara007 said:



			I wonder how much the minimum weight limit is as a % of those Diddy lean Arabs…!
		
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That's the thing, lb for lb, arabs and ponies are stronger than bigger animals and are probably more comfortable and more more likely to stay sound carrying the top of the weight percentage whereas something bigger, taller & heavier quite prossibly would not.


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## teapot (23 July 2022)

I do wonder whether we (as a group of humans) need educating in what weight can actually look like?

I’m tall, relatively slim, but with my riding kit on would be just over 13 stone at the moment, which in theory would rule me out of riding at a fair few riding schools. Though if you saw me, very few would say I’d be that weight?

And yes, I did on occasion have to say no to people who has booked their first lesson, only to be far heavier than what they’d said at time of booking. It’s horrible but horses first at end of the day.


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## linka (23 July 2022)

I haven't seen anyone post a link to this open-access 2020 study of rider weight impact on horses' way of going, so here it is, with sample image and final paragraph. I found it a while back when I was concerned about the effect of my then-weight on rather broadly assigned RS horses.
https://beva.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/eve.13085


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## southerncomfort (23 July 2022)

PapaverFollis said:



			You can disagree all you like about the importance of exercise in weightloss but what comes out of research is that it isnt very!  I never said it wasn't beneficial either. It is very important for health.  Everyone should probably exercise more.  It is just not a huge contributer to weight loss.  Especially if you end up eating to fuel it, or drinking "sports drinks".  For some people it is more effective as they don't get the drive to eat more to compensate for the exercise.  But most people will get an increase in appetite.  And since half an hour of most types of exercise only burns about 300 calories it is very easy to just eat away the potential weight loss without even noticing.  Even if you count calories because those things are pretty darn inaccurate.

The main thing I got out of reading the Tim Spector book is that everyone is different.  So maybe you're an exercise responder who doesn't get an over-compensation in appetite for the work done in exercise. But for many people they do get that and exercise has little effect.

I lost about half a stone just from running to start with but then it started to creep back on even as I was increasing the amount I was doing.  I didn't shift the other two stone until I seriously tackled my diet.  And while I was dieting I stopped running completely and picked it up again once I'd lost the weight... running much faster for the same effort as well.  Now I think of it as keeping the weight off in order to run, rather than running to keep the weight off and have managed to curb the over-compensatory eating I was doing.  I can do the running I do without any extra food.  I'm not relying on carbs for energy in the same way as I was.  I'm not getting sugar crashes on long runs or walks.   I'd started having to take a cereal bar with me on a six mile walk previously!  Such was the rubbishness of my sugar metabolism!  Now I can run nine miles without even needing a drink of water.  Or eating anything extra before or after.

Fundamental changes.  Our whole food environment and knowledge base is so screwy.  It is uncomfortable to realise this. I have spent a lot of years banging the calories in vs calories out drum.  I've also spent a lot of years getting fatter and fatter no matter how hard I tried... or how much exercise I did.

It's fine to disagree and I understand why.  Exercise IS very important and beneficial in lots of ways.  It doesn't make sense that it wouldn't help.  Of course it helps, surely.  Unfortunately that's not what research points to. :-/ I half don't believe it myself to be honest but as a statement it appears to be well supported by the data.
		
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I wanted to come back and defend myself and point to research that proves the link between weight control and exercise, especially as your post felt a bit personal.

But I'm not going to. Life's too short.  Have a good day.
I'm out


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## Birker2020 (23 July 2022)

linka said:



			I haven't seen anyone post a link to this open-access 2020 study of rider weight impact on horses' way of going, so here it is, with sample image and final paragraph. I found it a while back when I was concerned about the effect of my then-weight on rather broadly assigned RS horses.
https://beva.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/eve.13085

View attachment 96285

View attachment 96286

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My previous horse and this study:

Heavier people should ride a horse of appropriate size. Tick.
Heavier people should ride a horse of appropriate fitness. Tick.
With a saddle fitted for both horse and rider. Tick.


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## linka (23 July 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			My previous horse and this study:

Heavier people should ride a horse of appropriate size. Tick.
Heavier people should ride a horse of appropriate fitness. Tick.
With a saddle fitted for both horse and rider. Tick.
		
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It's definitely worth reading as much of the whole thing as possible to understand the limits of what they believe they can conclude based on the pilot study.


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## Tiddlypom (23 July 2022)

Linka, that pilot study on rider weight was most interesting. It is a great shame that corners were cut in getting the required approvals for the pilot study, which subsequently led to the striking off the veterinary register of Sue Dyson.

The Very Heavy rider should never have been allowed to sit on horse 2, even for a brief period of walk.


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## linka (23 July 2022)

Tiddlypom said:



			Linka, that pilot study on rider weight was most interesting. It is a great shame that corners were cut in getting the required approvals for the pilot study, which subsequently led to the striking off the veterinary register of Sue Dyson.

The Very Heavy rider should never have been allowed to sit on horse 2, even for a brief period of walk.
		
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Yes, the Dyson scandal is bizarre. 

It's striking that all 7 tests with the VH rider were halted quickly even so.


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## Dexter (23 July 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			My previous horse and this study:

Heavier people should ride a horse of appropriate size. Tick.
Heavier people should ride a horse of appropriate fitness. Tick.
With a saddle fitted for both horse and rider. Tick.
		
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But there has to be a cut off point where you dont get on a horse anymore.

I imagine it varies for everyone, but I dont think any horse should be carrying more than 16 stone plus tack, and for that you'd need a proper weight carrier. Sound and fit, wide across the loins, short cannon bones and a short but not too short back. Hard to find that sort of horse, unfortunately. And at that weight even on the best weight carrier I wouldnt want the horse jumping or being ridden for significant periods of time, or working hard towards the upper levels of their capabilities. If there was any sort of soundness medical issue, no matter how minor then that would immediately and significantly reduce the weight limit for that horse for me. The research backs this up.

While the limits are indicated to be around 15%, the bigger the horse the less this is going to apply due to the sheer amount of pressure being placed on the  very small surface area of the saddle.

Everyone makes their own decisions, but how can anyone get on a horse knowing their weight is going to cause it at best discomfort, at worst pain? What gives anyone the right to do that to an animal that has no choice in the matter? There is so much cognitive dissonance around what we do to horses in order that we can ride them.

I am growing increasingly worried about how equestrianism is perceived and how long it can continue in its current form.


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## PapaverFollis (23 July 2022)

southerncomfort said:



			I wanted to come back and defend myself and point to research that proves the link between weight control and exercise, especially as your post felt a bit personal.

But I'm not going to. Life's too short.  Have a good day.
I'm out
		
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Personal? As in nasty personal?  How?  It was aimed at you as a response to your post so it was personal in that way, as your post was aimed a mine originally! But I had no intention of being nasty.  I said I understood why and said I empathised with not believing it. I'm sure there is research that proves a link...useful for the food industry to have research to take the spotlight off them, their horrendous foods and their exploitative marketing and make people who struggle to lose weight take all the blame onto their own shoulders, while drinking their sports drinks and eating their ultra-processed nutrient bars... 

I love exercising. I believe it is very good for us.  I also think the myth that it is really important in weight control is more likely to make people give up in despair, both exercise and trying to lose weight, then to get people active and healthy. 

I never said that exercise wasn't good and cannot begin to see how you've taken my post personally, in the nasty sense.  I didn't say anything desparaging about you, I completely empathised with your position having believed it myself until very recently. 

I had no intention of causing any offence.  I'm simply relaying interesting information that until recently I had no idea about myself. I fail, utterly, to see where I have been unreasonable or rude or nasty in any way.  I'm sorry you feel got at,  it was not my intention.  I just want to talk about what might be true and what we might think we know that is actually false.

I think it is important because battling away under food industry created myths is making so many peoples lives miserable and putting huge strains on our health systems. Having said that it isn't my job to convince anyone of anything. 🤷‍♀️  but if anyone is reading this thread and is interested then we've had several suggestions of good books that explore these issues in more detail.

You have a grand day too.  Just because I disagree with your opinion or your understanding if the facts does not mean I am attacking you. You disagree with me and actually did so first, my post was in response to defend my position. As is normal in a discussion.  I appreciate your perspective and wholeheartedly agree that exercise is good and important and that many people would benefit from doing more.  All of which I said in my original response to you but wasn't clear in my first post as I was talking completely in the context of weightloss there.  Where exercise, it turns out, matters a lot less than people imagine.


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## AntiPuck (23 July 2022)

linka said:



			Yes, the Dyson scandal is bizarre.

It's striking that all 7 tests with the VH rider were halted quickly even so.
		
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It reads as though they halted the majority of tests for the H (14 stone) rider as well, unless I'm misreading. That's very interesting given this rider's % of horse body weight was between 17-20% dependent on the horse, with lots of people treating 20% as an unproblematic rider weight. It seems like, as others have said up thread, 15% is a much more reasonable limit from the horse's perspective. 

ETA, quote from study;
"We have documented a substantial temporary adverse effect of rider on gait and behaviour, with no test being completed by the H or VH riders"


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## linka (23 July 2022)

AntiPuck said:



			It reads as though they halted the majority of tests for the H (14 stone) rider as well, unless I'm misreading.
		
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Yes.


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## teapot (23 July 2022)

linka said:



			I haven't seen anyone post a link to this open-access 2020 study of rider weight impact on horses' way of going, so here it is, with sample image and final paragraph. I found it a while back when I was concerned about the effect of my then-weight on rather broadly assigned RS horses.
https://beva.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/eve.13085

View attachment 96285

View attachment 96286

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Is that the study Dyson got done for or another one?


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## Tiddlypom (23 July 2022)

It's the Dyson study.

IIRC it has been postulated that had she obtained the correct approvals that a  % weight limit would likely have been imposed for each rider/horse combo, which would have ruled the VH rider out altogether (23.6–27.5%). The H rider was 15.3–17.9%.


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## maisie06 (23 July 2022)

danda said:



			What actions do you take if your horse is overweight? Try the same for yourself if you are overweight .
		
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Believe me I have tried evry diet going - I have starved myself, tried protien only cutting out carbs, NOTHING works I am still piling on weight, My mother and grandmotherhad weight issues as well so i'm feck£d.....


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## maisie06 (23 July 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			I find the calories on menus really really helpful. I eat out a lot for various reasons, making sensible choices is so much easier when I can see the actual facts in front of me.
		
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I've stopped eating out for this reason - I feel very uncomfortable and that I'm being judged with people thinking "why is that fatty eating out?"


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## PapaverFollis (23 July 2022)

maisie06 said:



			Believe me I have tried evry diet going - I have starved myself, tried protien only cutting out carbs, NOTHING works I am still piling on weight, My mother and grandmotherhad weight issues as well so i'm feck£d.....
		
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I think, though not sure, that Tim Spector is looking for subjects for his studies all the time.  They seem to involve wearing a blood sugar monitor, eating premade muffins and collecting your own stool samples! Obviously the data goes towards the study but I think participants also get information about how their bodies respond to different foods etc.

Genetics play a part but are not determinative either.   The gut microbiome, which is partly inherited, may play a huge part too... but it can be improved. 

I think I'm managing to figure out what works for me right now but if I was still struggling I would get myself signed up for one of these studies and fast track myself to some personalised data.  Worth a look?


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## linka (23 July 2022)

Tiddlypom said:



			It's the Dyson study.

IIRC it has been postulated that had she obtained the correct approvals that a  % weight limit would likely have been imposed for each rider/horse combo, which would have ruled the VH rider out altogether (23.6–27.5%). The H rider was 15.3–17.9%.
		
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not disagreeing with this possibility, but the cited problem in the RCVS report is the taking of the horses' rectal temperatures and saliva samples.


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## AShetlandBitMeOnce (23 July 2022)

I have to say, I have been thoroughly kicked up the @rse by this thread. I have left the car keys at home and walked 8km today already doing various errands (including picking up a precsription for a stronger painkiller for my hip - hopefully this one touches the pain a litter better), cleared out the cupboards, briefed OH and written my 'why' on the fridge.   I wasn't riding due to my weight anyway, but there's no reason other than my hip and a bit of depression that I can't sort my weight out and get me back riding; there's no point dreaming about something when it's wholly achieveable


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## Flame_ (23 July 2022)

maisie06 said:



			Believe me I have tried evry diet going - I have starved myself, tried protien only cutting out carbs, NOTHING works I am still piling on weight, My mother and grandmotherhad weight issues as well so i'm feck£d.....
		
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Get a job as a postie. You'll lose weight if you do it for any length of time and they pay you instead of you paying out for personal trainers, dieticians, gym memberships etc, or having to shell out for a massive strong horse.


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## SEL (23 July 2022)

PapaverFollis said:



			I think, though not sure, that Tim Spector is looking for subjects for his studies all the time.  They seem to involve wearing a blood sugar monitor, eating premade muffins and collecting your own stool samples! Obviously the data goes towards the study but I think participants also get information about how their bodies respond to different foods etc.

Genetics play a part but are not determinative either.   The gut microbiome, which is partly inherited, may play a huge part too... but it can be improved.

I think I'm managing to figure out what works for me right now but if I was still struggling I would get myself signed up for one of these studies and fast track myself to some personalised data.  Worth a look?
		
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There was a young kid on a programme I watched a few years back who was obese despite his family eating well and all being slim. Might have been one of the Dr Chatterlea ones.

Turns out his gut bacteria was seriously depleted - they thought it was because he was premature and in an incubator for weeks. By the time the producers followed him he was about 8. Once the nutritionists got involved and had him eating a huge variety of fruit, veg, nuts etc his health improved loads.

Fascinating!


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## PapaverFollis (23 July 2022)

SEL said:



			There was a young kid on a programme I watched a few years back who was obese despite his family eating well and all being slim. Might have been one of the Dr Chatterlea ones.

Turns out his gut bacteria was seriously depleted - they thought it was because he was premature and in an incubator for weeks. By the time the producers followed him he was about 8. Once the nutritionists got involved and had him eating a huge variety of fruit, veg, nuts etc his health improved loads.

Fascinating!
		
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Another Micheal Moseley book "Clever Guts" is worth a read.  It's all very new science really but I suspect it impacts very much on many aspects of health. ( I wouldn't be at all surprised if it was behind a lot of the 'random' nature of how much people suffer with Covid-19, along with blood sugar responses and possibly vitamin D levels. But that's a whole other discussion obviously - I just find these things coming up over and overlapping )


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## palo1 (23 July 2022)

PapaverFollis said:



			Another Micheal Moseley book "Clever Guts" is worth a read.  It's all very new science really but I suspect it impacts very much on many aspects of health. ( I wouldn't be at all surprised if it was behind a lot of the 'random' nature of how much people suffer with Covid-19, along with blood sugar responses and possibly vitamin D levels. But that's a whole other discussion obviously - I just find these things coming up over and overlapping )
		
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Yes it is quite a compelling read and certainly changed some of my habits and attitudes to food.  The Covid thing is interesting as it seems that those folk with a larger element of Neanderthal DNA suffer far more with Covid and are more likely to die than those with less Neanderthal DNA.


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## motherof2beasts! (23 July 2022)

Yes it should most definitely be capped, just because a horse can doesn’t mean it should , they are stoic and don’t always show they aren’t comfortable. Get sick of seeing “if they weren’t happy you’d know about it”, not necessarily.

my cob in theory could carry 16 stone but would I let him no ! He has a very short back so also can only have a 16 inch saddle.

I think the subject is always emotive but it’s common sense surely …… think with some it verges on being a welfare issue.

Before anyone jumps on to say I don’t understand, I do, I have a very under active thyroid and weights a daily battle. Sadly to be at my target weight breakfast and lunch are protein shakes , which is far from satisfying but keeps my weight stable .


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## windand rain (23 July 2022)

The type 2 diabetic reversal diet of 800 calories is doable with care but you do need to weigh everything you eat


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## Widgeon (23 July 2022)

sbloom said:



			Set point weight - what weight your body gravitates to, and why.
		
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Not really contributing to the original debate, sorry - but that is SO interesting! I've noticed since I was in my early twenties (I'm 33 now) that my body will gravitate back to more or less 10.5 stone. To get more than a kilo or so below that, I have to eat really very little, or exercise *loads* (it's not worth it). And even at times when my lifestyle is more sedentary (e.g. when I didn't have a horse) I still don't go more than a couple of kilos over. But it's so interesting to hear that that's actually a widely acknowledged phenomenon.


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## Ali27 (23 July 2022)

It really is, what you eat! I’ve always been active, riding 5-6 times a week, schooling, jumping, poo picking, doing 20k plus steps and joining the gym! My weight slowly crept up until I was 10 stone, 8🙈 I’m 5ft 6 so it wasn’t overweight but I’ve dropped down to 9 stone 5 within 4 months by cutting out crap and adding protein! Never went hungry! It was dead easy and I really do think that so many people eat too much rubbish! I didn’t calorie count but ate sensibly!
I really don’t like seeing overweight people riding horses! Not fair at all! I’m sorry if it upsets some people but horses don’t ask to be ridden!


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## Lexi_ (23 July 2022)

Ali27 said:



			It really is, what you eat! I’ve always been active, riding 5-6 times a week, schooling, jumping, poo picking, doing 20k plus steps and joining the gym! My weight slowly crept up until I was 10 stone, 8🙈 I’m 5ft 6 so it wasn’t overweight but I’ve dropped down to 9 stone 5 within 4 months by cutting out crap and adding protein! Never went hungry! It was dead easy and I really do think that so many people eat too much rubbish! I didn’t calorie count but ate sensibly!
I really don’t like seeing overweight people riding horses! Not fair at all! I’m sorry if it upsets some people but horses don’t ask to be ridden!
		
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Just because it works for you doesn’t mean it’s that simple for other people. There are multiple other posts in this thread explaining that. 

Also apologies if I sound like a narky witch but must you end every sentence with an exclamation mark? Other punctuation exists.


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## Ali27 (23 July 2022)

Lexi_ said:



			Just because it works for you doesn’t mean it’s that simple for other people. There are multiple other posts in this thread explaining that.

Also apologies if I sound like a narky witch but must you end every sentence with an exclamation mark? Other punctuation exists.
		
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Oh I must apologise for the over use of exclamation marks! 🤣🤣
Seriously though, I knew I had put on some weight and just by cutting out alcohol and junk food, I shifted it easily. It’s quite amazing now when I go to Supermarkets, the amount of junk food, the average person has in their trolley. I’m sure there are more overweight people now than back in the olden days when there was no junk food! Just meat and veg!
Anyway, there is no excuse for an overweight person getting on a horse. I wouldn’t let anyone over the weight of 10 stone get on my cob x who most people would think was a weight carrier. Good job that I shifted the weight otherwise I would have been too big for her!


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## Lucky Snowball (24 July 2022)

Near me there is a yard with lots of larger ladies. They never compete so weighing at shows would not affect them. Although personally I think they are a little big for their mounts, they only ever wander along slowly and never out of walk. Horses seem happy ambling around.


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## Goldenstar (24 July 2022)

Walking is very hard on the horses back especially if they have weak abdominals and thoracic sling .


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## Peglo (24 July 2022)

For what it’s worth @southerncomfort i actually think you and @PapaverFollis basically agree on points. Like you, exercise is really important for me. I have a physical job so wasn’t overweight but when I started running, doing physio in the gym and riding more (and basically sitting less) I toned up. But as PF says, I (and probably you) don’t eat to run. We run to eat. So we aren’t having that cereal bar and energy drink before a run. We just go a run and our diet stays the same. But a lot of people up their calorie intake when they exercise because they feel hungrier. Or else they have a good gym session and think they deserve a treat. It’s so good to see there is so many books that have helped with peoples response to food. I will keep a note of them to pass on to some friends who do the crash diets and pile the weight back on and spend so much money on online PT’s who all spew the same crap and when their ‘plan’ has finished they resort straight back to their original bad habits. (Because overhauling your whole diet like that and so extremely in one go will never work!! Everyone’s always miserable on these plans and they hate going to the gym.) sorry that’s my online PT rant over.


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## Dexter (24 July 2022)

Goldenstar said:



			Walking is very hard on the horses back especially if they have weak abdominals and thoracic sling .
		
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The research shows that the forces when a horse is walking with a heavy rider is significantly less than when trotting and cantering, so if you are pushing the maximum weight then steady walking for short periods is the least damaging thing you can do.


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## ycbm (24 July 2022)

Dexter said:



			The research shows that the forces when a horse is walking with a heavy rider is significantly less than when trotting and cantering, so if you are pushing the maximum weight then steady walking for short periods is the least damaging thing you can do.
		
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I don't think pressure on the legs when trotting and cantering is a relevant measure here.  It doesn't alter the amount a horse is able to carry on its back,  which was never designed to carry any extra weight at all. 

Obviously trotting and cantering are even worse but that doesn't make walking carrying too heavy (not fat,  heavy)   a person right.


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## Ambers Echo (24 July 2022)

At one of the events I did, I was walking the course while the 100 class was running. Towards the end I saw a pony the spitting image of Dolly. So I’m guessing it was a 14.2 Connemara. Being ridden by a very heavy adult rider. She didn’t remotely fit the saddle. I couldn’t believe someone felt it was ok to ask a pony to carry that much weight over a 100 course. He refused a jump and was smacked and then jumped. The woman hit him again on the approach to the next shouting ‘don’t you dare stop you little Sh!t’. I was appalled that she thought it ok to ride in the first place and that any protest by the pony was just viewed as naughty. I did think at the time that she should not have been allowed to ride but wondered how it could be policed. Perhaps they need to have the 20% rule in the rule book and always have a weigh bridge at events. Not to weigh people routinely but at least to pick up the most extreme examples of riders too heavy for their horses.


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## Dexter (24 July 2022)

ycbm said:



			I don't think pressure on the legs when trotting and cantering is a relevant measure here.  It doesn't alter the amount a horse is able to carry on its back,  which was never designed to carry any extra weight at all.

Obviously trotting and cantering are even worse but that doesn't make walking carrying too heavy (not fat,  heavy)   a person right.
		
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Its pressure on the back. Theres a really interesting research paper about it.

link to research

"At walk, the overall force is approximately equivalent to the body mass of the rider (Fruehwirth et al. 2004). At sitting trot, the force values increase to approximately twice the body mass and reach almost 2.5 times the body mass of the rider when cantering."

It does point out that saddle fit may impact but the heavier the rider, the higher the pressure. Figure 5 shows that really well if you dont want to wade through the whole thing. If you must ride, then sticking to short periods of walk massively reduces the pressure applied.


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## CanteringCarrot (24 July 2022)

Ambers Echo said:



			At one of the events I did, I was walking the course while the 100 class was running. Towards the end I saw a pony the spitting image of Dolly. So I’m guessing it was a 14.2 Connemara. Being ridden by a very heavy adult rider. She didn’t remotely fit the saddle. I couldn’t believe someone felt it was ok to ask a pony to carry that much weight over a 100 course. He refused a jump and was smacked and then jumped. The woman hit him again on the approach to the next shouting ‘don’t you dare stop you little Sh!t’. I was appalled that she thought it ok to ride in the first place and that any protest by the pony was just viewed as naughty. I did think at the time that she should not have been allowed to ride but wondered how it could be policed. Perhaps they need to have the 20% rule in the rule book and always have a weigh bridge at events. Not to weigh people routinely but at least to pick up the most extreme examples of riders too heavy for their horses.
		
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This reminds me of 2 summers ago when I was exercising a Connemara pony who is on the smaller side. I was encouraged to jump her and I did pop a few small things with her but I don't want to do any more, and I was so worried about my weight with her. I don't think I was too heavy for her and we actually looked ok (my weight and height), but she was used to only small kids riding her and I just felt weird about it. Idk if a horse should have some time to adapt to a heavier rider or not. Or maybe I think too much.

Either way I wish people were more conscious of this. That makes me so sad (your story above).

My own horse, although he's almost 15.3 is not a weight carrier. I know that if I were to put on weight I'd have to stop riding him. Someone heavier and taller than me rode him once and there was a visible difference. This man was not "fat" or obese at all really, but just too heavy for that horse. So while I like a firm rule of x% in my head, because it's black and white, in reality, it isn't so black and white. There probably are other horses of my horses size and weight that could've carried that heavier rider.


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## Goldie's mum (24 July 2022)

Ambers Echo said:



			At one of the events I did, I was walking the course while the 100 class was running. Towards the end I saw a pony the spitting image of Dolly. So I’m guessing it was a 14.2 Connemara. Being ridden by a very heavy adult rider. She didn’t remotely fit the saddle. I couldn’t believe someone felt it was ok to ask a pony to carry that much weight over a 100 course. He refused a jump and was smacked and then jumped. The woman hit him again on the approach to the next shouting ‘don’t you dare stop you little Sh!t’. I was appalled that she thought it ok to ride in the first place and that any protest by the pony was just viewed as naughty. I did think at the time that she should not have been allowed to ride but wondered how it could be policed. Perhaps they need to have the 20% rule in the rule book and always have a weigh bridge at events. Not to weigh people routinely but at least to pick up the most extreme examples of riders too heavy for their horses.
		
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A friend and I had a similar experience & felt guilty for not saying anything but like you, we didn't see who we could tell at the time. We were at a well known BHS approved riding centre & booked a fast hack that was meant to take in their little xc course on the way round. The girl who led us out was on a very slightly built appaloosa, maybe about 13hh. The girl was absolutely huge, hanging over all the edges of the saddle. The pony kept napping & wouldn't canter. He got beaten up for it. The girl herself was a teenager & had obviously be told to use that pony by someone but there didn't seem to be anyone else around. 
[I since found out that the usual manager was on maternity leave at the time and the girl has now been moved to non-riding duties.]


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## Regandal (24 July 2022)

A good few years ago I was fence judging at a local hunter trial. One of the combinations was a large rider on a cob cross, probably around 15hh. Horse was blowing hard and dripping sweat, rider was red in the face and breathless. I radioed in that the horse was in distress and they were pulled. 
The rider and their mother walked back to my fence and gave me a torrent of abuse. Apparently they were both just ‘a bit unfit’.  😳


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## Birker2020 (24 July 2022)

Our very last photo of my darling Bailey minutes before she was pts in June 2021.  I stopped riding her 6 months before. She was 710KG and a big boned 17.1hh M/W and easily took my weight. Agree if I'd been schooling or jumping I would have been to heavy. We stopped jumping Oct 2016 and schooling June 2018, i then started putting on weight so we just hacked, our last hacks were 20 mins once or twice a week.  I have a video of her on one of these hacks striding out, ears pricked forward. She never struggled carrying me. Or if she did it never showed and hand on heart I've never had anyone ever say i was too heavy for her and trust me there were enough people that would have if they felt i was.

I realise I am probably opening myself open to criticism by showing my photo but I want to share for those that have been upset by this thread.


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## Ambers Echo (24 July 2022)

I did wonder whether the fence judge should have addressed it when she was hitting the pony yo make it jump, But Regaldan has demonstrated why that is not a good idea! It needs to be a black and white rule not someone's subjective opinion. And while balanced riders are easier to carry, fat horses would be allowed to carry more which makes little sense etc etc. at least there would be an objective, non judgemtnal way of addressing at least the worst examples of riders unsuitably mounted. 

Our local RDA centre has a weight chart on the wall with all horses listed and the balanced and unbalanced weight they are allowed to carry. It's not emotive/judgemtnal thoigh f course I appreciate some riders find it so. But it's just 'this is the limit' and if it is unclear whether a rider is within that limit, then they are weighed. 

Birker2020 I'm really talling about horses out competing - eg expected to gallop and jump. Not leisurely strolls round the countryside. There are all sorts of tack and whip rules for competitions that don't apply to leisure riders as they are supposed to be setting a standard and because the demands on the horse are very high.


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## Goldie's mum (24 July 2022)

Ambers Echo said:



			Our local RDA centre has a weight chart on the wall with all horses listed and the balanced and unbalanced weight they are allowed to carry. It's not emotive/judgemtnal thoigh f course I appreciate some riders find it so. But it's just 'this is the limit' and if it is unclear whether a rider is within that limit, then they are weighed.
		
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Just interested. Do you remember what difference they use between the two?


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## Dexter (24 July 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			Our very last photo of my darling Bailey minutes before she was pts in June 2021.  I stopped riding her 6 months before. She was 710KG and a big boned 17.1hh M/W and easily took my weight. Agree if I'd been schooling or jumping I would have been to heavy. We stopped jumping Oct 2016 and schooling June 2018, i then started putting on weight so we just hacked, our last hacks were 20 mins once or twice a week.  I have a video of her on one of these hacks striding out, ears pricked forward. She never struggled carrying me. Or if she did it never showed and hand on heart I've never had anyone ever say i was too heavy for her and trust me there were enough people that would have if they felt i was.

I realise I am probably opening myself open to criticism by showing my photo but I want to share for those that have been upset by this thread.
View attachment 96398

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It is absolutely nothing to do with the way you look, what you eat, what you do, or who you are. Someone posted about a tiny 7.5stone person being too heavy for a pony for example.

I dont understand why people are taking things so personally or what posting a photo of a specific combination is meant to achieve. Its a wider discussion about the weight horses are expected to carry and where people draw the line.

*Its nothing to do with being fat or thin or how you look*

Most people consider just short of 21 stone too much to be on any horses back, and far, far too much for a compromised horse. If you dont then thats your choice. There is no one policing any of this, and as is clearly shown by the following of plus size influencers, people will be very quick to tell you "its fine hun" and horses are wonderful stoic creatures and wont complain. 

I suspect over time there will be much more attention drawn to this, more research done and then we might see some sort of backlash, because horse sports are starting to see that now. But until then, there is no absolute definite answer and people can only do what their conscience allows.


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## Ambers Echo (24 July 2022)

Goldie's mum said:



			Just interested. Do you remember what difference they use between the two?
		
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About a stone. I can go and look next time I am up there if you are interested.


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## maisie06 (24 July 2022)

Ali27 said:



			Oh I must apologise for the over use of exclamation marks! 🤣🤣
Seriously though, I knew I had put on some weight and just by cutting out alcohol and junk food, I shifted it easily. It’s quite amazing now when I go to Supermarkets, the amount of junk food, the average person has in their trolley. I’m sure there are more overweight people now than back in the olden days when there was no junk food! Just meat and veg!
Anyway, there is no excuse for an overweight person getting on a horse. I wouldn’t let anyone over the weight of 10 stone get on my cob x who most people would think was a weight carrier. Good job that I shifted the weight otherwise I would have been too big for her!
		
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I can Literally starve myself and I won't lose weight, I just get fatter - I haven't dared weigh myself in ages - I'll just think sod it and go on a binge. I think half of it is because I'm very ugly too so food is consolation to my disgusting looking face!!  I am seriously considering taking up smoking but it's so expensive!!


Having said all that I would never dream of getting on a horse again, gave that up when my weight started getrting out of control. And I do agree with you about modern diets and a glut of junk food available.


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## Goldie's mum (24 July 2022)

Ambers Echo said:



			About a stone. I can go and look next time I am up there if you are interested.
		
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Thanks, "about" is as much as I need I think!


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## Regandal (24 July 2022)

maisie06 said:



			I can Literally starve myself and I won't lose weight, I just get fatter - I haven't dared weigh myself in ages - I'll just think sod it and go on a binge. I think half of it is because I'm very ugly too so food is consolation to my disgusting looking face!!  I am seriously considering taking up smoking but it's so expensive!!


Having said all that I would never dream of getting on a horse again, gave that up when my weight started getrting out of control. And I do agree with you about modern diets and a glut of junk food available.
		
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Maisie, I’ve never met you or seen a picture of you but I’d bet my last pound that you are not ugly. No one is.  Have you ever seen the film ‘Shallow Hal’?  If not, I’d recommend it.


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## Goldenstar (24 July 2022)

Dexter said:



			The research shows that the forces when a horse is walking with a heavy rider is significantly less than when trotting and cantering, so if you are pushing the maximum weight then steady walking for short periods is the least damaging thing you can do.
		
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It’s still damaging for the horses and it’s not good enough .


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## SEL (24 July 2022)

Regandal said:



			Maisie, I’ve never met you or seen a picture of you but I’d bet my last pound that you are not ugly. No one is.  Have you ever seen the film ‘Shallow Hal’?  If not, I’d recommend it.
		
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I was thinking exactly this. I bet you aren't. 

Instead of "dieting" set yourself a challenge to eat 20 different fruit & veg over the course of a week. I got my OH to join me in that challenge and you're so full with flipping veg that there's not much room left for carbs - get those gut bacteria working for you


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## Goldenstar (24 July 2022)

Here’s some advice that helped me .
Don’t just set goals work on making systems that help you do what you want to do ,
without systems goals don’t help .
Its your system that gets you to goal not the goal .
If it’s not working you need a different system .
This how everything in life works reducing weight is no different .


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## SmallPony (24 July 2022)

maisie06 said:



			I can Literally starve myself and I won't lose weight, I just get fatter - I haven't dared weigh myself in ages - I'll just think sod it and go on a binge. I think half of it is because I'm very ugly too so food is consolation to my disgusting looking face!!  I am seriously considering taking up smoking but it's so expensive!!


Having said all that I would never dream of getting on a horse again, gave that up when my weight started getrting out of control. And I do agree with you about modern diets and a glut of junk food available.
		
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Do you think that getting back to riding could be your "why" ?

We live in a world that is very visual and appearance focused, but if you think about the people in your life who you love, do you like them for their facial features? Would you invite someone out for a coffee based on their dress size? Do you pick your friends depending on how big their ears are or if they have straight teeth? 

Our horses don't give a shiny sh*te about how we look - they care that we are kind to them and look after them as best we can. People are the same really, when it comes down to it.  It doesn't matter how you look - it matters how you make people feel.

I come back to this quote by Roald Dahl when I am having an appearance wobble, because it reminds me that my place in the world is not defined by what I look like, but who I am:

"A person who has good thoughts cannot ever be ugly. You can have a wonky nose and a crooked mouth and a double chin and stick-out teeth, but if you have good thoughts it will shine out of your face like sunbeams, and you will always look lovely."


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## Ali27 (24 July 2022)

maisie06 said:



			I can Literally starve myself and I won't lose weight, I just get fatter - I haven't dared weigh myself in ages - I'll just think sod it and go on a binge. I think half of it is because I'm very ugly too so food is consolation to my disgusting looking face!!  I am seriously considering taking up smoking but it's so expensive!!


Having said all that I would never dream of getting on a horse again, gave that up when my weight started getrting out of control. And I do agree with you about modern diets and a glut of junk food available.
		
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I knew someone who was 17 stone and only 5ft 2 who signed up to Trinity Transformation! She had tried every diet going but they tackled her mindset as well as changing her diet. She went down to 9 1/2 stone within a year. She had stopped riding too! Apparently when in your 40’s it’s harder to lose weight by traditional methods. They weren’t cheap but it worked!
My motto now is, does it fill me up? If not then I don’t eat it so no cake or crisps!


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## Bruce17 (24 July 2022)

Curious to know, what max rider weight would people put on a 16h ex flat racer TB? Has been on weigh bridge very recently and is 504kg. Top line is okay but recently diagnosed with changes in hocks. Now treated and is sound.

Just trying to work out how much more weight I need to lose before i get back on ...


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## ponynutz (24 July 2022)

Have to say I have a bit of a guilty conscience. I have a 13.3hh Connie (tad overweight since I went to uni) and I hack her occasionally. Although I'm trying to lose I'm about 10stone2 and the max she can carry (with the 20% rule) is 10stone11. I do feel guilty every time I ride her given I'm also 5'7 but then again... we're only hacking now.

I put a lot of weight on with medication and so I'm trying to get back down to a weight of 8 stone which surely would be much nicer for her.


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## Tiddlypom (24 July 2022)

Bruce17 said:



			Curious to know, what max rider weight would people put on a 16h ex flat racer TB? Has been on weigh bridge very recently and is 504kg. Top line is okay but recently diagnosed with changes in hocks. Now treated and is sound.

Just trying to work out how much more weight I need to lose before i get back on ...
		
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Max 15% of horse weight inc tack and clothing. IIRC that's about 10 stone 10lbs naked rider weight (I needed to do that calculation once for a 500kg horse), though do crunch the numbers properly.

It allows 2.5 stone for all tack and rider clothing. I weighed mine and that's what it totalled.


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## ponynutz (24 July 2022)

Bruce17 said:



			Curious to know, what max rider weight would people put on a 16h ex flat racer TB? Has been on weigh bridge very recently and is 504kg. Top line is okay but recently diagnosed with changes in hocks. Now treated and is sound.

Just trying to work out how much more weight I need to lose before i get back on ...
		
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https://good-horse.com/tools/calculator-much-weight-can-horse-carry/ 

This is the calculator I use and for this horse it spits out 14stone13 as tack defaults at about 6/7kg.
As I say above though, not sure I trust it fully.


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## Goldenstar (24 July 2022)

Max 15% a of 504 
That’s about ten stone seven including tack .

Whoops lost my quote that’s in reply to B17.


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## Goldie's mum (24 July 2022)

ponynutz said:



https://good-horse.com/tools/calculator-much-weight-can-horse-carry/

This is the calculator I use and for this horse it spits out 14stone13 as tack defaults at about 6/7kg.
As I say above though, not sure I trust it fully.
		
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Does anyone know of a list of approximate weights of different horse & pony breeds?


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## w1bbler (24 July 2022)

The 20% rule seems way over to me, definitely believe 15% more appropriate.
A few years back I had fluffy weighed, 14.1 cob 480 kg. Friend who ways 15 stone happily announced she could ride her as that was just inside the 20% rule. I've been making excuses ever since...


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## Dexter (24 July 2022)

Goldenstar said:



			It’s still damaging for the horses and it’s not good enough .
		
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But clearly significant amounts of people dont care and will ride anyway, so if they have to do that, then if they at least stick to walk it minimises it


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## maggiestar (25 July 2022)

Regandal said:



			A good few years ago I was fence judging at a local hunter trial. One of the combinations was a large rider on a cob cross, probably around 15hh. Horse was blowing hard and dripping sweat, rider was red in the face and breathless. I radioed in that the horse was in distress and they were pulled.
The rider and their mother walked back to my fence and gave me a torrent of abuse. Apparently they were both just ‘a bit unfit’.  😳
		
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How awful, but well done to you for doing the right thing by that horse.


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## Soap On A Rope (25 July 2022)

Well done....They are horses , not HGV's


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## ponynutz (25 July 2022)

Dexter said:



			But clearly significant amounts of people dont care and will ride anyway, so if they have to do that, then if they at least stick to walk it minimises it
		
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This. I'd never dream of jumping or working mine. If she's fat she gets hacked and lunged not subjected to me trotting her around.


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## cariadbach10 (25 July 2022)

I’m sure all the riders competing in the Equestrianists Mongol Derby (longest and toughest horse race in the world) this week will be devastated to read this thread when they come in from galloping across the steppe on 13hh Mongol ‘horses’ this evening.  😂 
https://equestrianists.com/

Weight limit for this is 85kg including tack (super lightweight endurance saddles). Many competitors are men and women who only just come in under the 85kg limit. Watch ‘The Ride’ on Horse and Country TV- the guy who ends up with a second place has to starve himself for a few days before to make the weight limit.


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## Barton Bounty (25 July 2022)

That looks so much fun 😊


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## ycbm (25 July 2022)

cariadbach10 said:



			I’m sure all the riders competing in the Equestrianists Mongol Derby (longest and toughest horse race in the world) this week will be devastated to read this thread when they come in from galloping across the steppe on 13hh Mongol ‘horses’ this evening.  😂
https://equestrianists.com/

Weight limit for this is 85kg including tack (super lightweight endurance saddles). Many competitors are men and women who only just come in under the 85kg limit. Watch ‘The Ride’ on Horse and Country TV- the guy who ends up with a second place has to starve himself for a few days before to make the weight limit.
		
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Just because you can doesn't mean you should. 
.


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## sbloom (25 July 2022)

Dexter said:



			Its pressure on the back. Theres a really interesting research paper about it.

link to research

"At walk, the overall force is approximately equivalent to the body mass of the rider (Fruehwirth et al. 2004). At sitting trot, the force values increase to approximately twice the body mass and reach almost 2.5 times the body mass of the rider when cantering."

It does point out that saddle fit may impact but the heavier the rider, the higher the pressure. Figure 5 shows that really well if you dont want to wade through the whole thing. If you must ride, then sticking to short periods of walk massively reduces the pressure applied.
		
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Yes but this sort of research is very limited.  In walk most leisure horses' saddles tip back slightly in order to balance the rider best in trot.  If you look at posture, then canter is the best pace, as it has its own intrinsic lift to the back.  Not black and white, I think long periods of walk can be very hard on the back, especially under riders that shove their seat rather than having the horse of the leg, not uncommon.



maisie06 said:



			I can Literally starve myself and I won't lose weight, I just get fatter - I haven't dared weigh myself in ages - I'll just think sod it and go on a binge. I think half of it is because I'm very ugly too so food is consolation to my disgusting looking face!!  I am seriously considering taking up smoking but it's so expensive!!


Having said all that I would never dream of getting on a horse again, gave that up when my weight started getrting out of control. And I do agree with you about modern diets and a glut of junk food available.
		
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Please look up Rebelfit.


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## Goldie's mum (25 July 2022)

cariadbach10 said:



			I’m sure all the riders competing in the Equestrianists Mongol Derby (longest and toughest horse race in the world) this week will be devastated to read this thread when they come in from galloping across the steppe on 13hh Mongol ‘horses’ this evening.  😂
https://equestrianists.com/

Weight limit for this is 85kg including tack (super lightweight endurance saddles). Many competitors are men and women who only just come in under the 85kg limit. Watch ‘The Ride’ on Horse and Country TV- the guy who ends up with a second place has to starve himself for a few days before to make the weight limit.
		
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They do actually have a weight limit though, which puts them ahead of us.


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## TPO (25 July 2022)

ycbm said:



			Just because you can doesn't mean you should.
.
		
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Exactly

They aren't participating for the sake or benefit of the horses. It's humans doing something for themselves.

It's one thing fighters taking measures to make weight knowing that they'll both be heavier on fight night but in this case it's not as if the ponies will suddenly get bigger or stronger to carry the post weigh day rider.

I mean that example just solidifies (edited to fix autocorrect) what's been repeated on this thread. People will do what THEY want to do for THEIR enjoyment regardless.

"Oh but we only walk once or twice a week for 10mins" like that's better. If anything it verges on worse because the horse isn't fittened and strengthened to carry further excess weight. The "correct" way of going/outline is because thats the optimum for horses carrying riders, something they are not designed for, yet the perception is that sloping along on a hack is somehow less of a burden.

There always seems to be such a disconnect between how unfit people feel after a busy/active day or a training session compared to what they expect of the horse and how it will feel.

The "correct" way of working has been compared to a human doing weighted squats for the duration. Most people wouldn't want to go straight into that without gradual and consistent work yet expect their horses to.


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## CanteringCarrot (25 July 2022)

TPO said:



			Exactly

They aren't participating for the sake or benefit of the horses. It's humans doing something for themselves.

It's one thing fighters taking measures to make weight knowing that they'll both be heavier on fight night but in this case it's not as if the ponies will suddenly get bigger or stronger to carry the post weigh day rider. 

I mean that example just solicits what's been repeated on this thread. People will do what THEY want to do for THEIR enjoyment regardless.

"Oh but we only walk once or twice a week for 10mins" like that's better. If anything it verges on worse because the horse isn't fittened and strengthened to carry further excess weight. The "correct" way of going/outline is because thats the optimum for horses carrying riders, something they are not designed for, yet the perception is that sloping along on a hack is somehow less of a burden.

There always seems to be such a disconnect between how unfit people feel after a busy/active day or a training session compared to what they expect of the horse and how it will feel.

The "correct" way of working has been compared to a human doing weighted squats for the duration. Most people wouldn't want to go straight into that without gradual and consistent work yet expect their horses to.
		
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Yesssss!


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## PapaverFollis (25 July 2022)

Myself and MrPF have often observed between us on various yards that many horse riders do not take part in other sports themselves and do not seem to understand that doing nothing for several weeks then doing a hard training session... hurts!  We have often observed an ignorance or lack of empathy for the horse as an athlete that needs to be carefully conditioned to do the work we require of her.  And our theory is that this may be down to many horse riders never having trained for a hard running race themselves for example, or anything similar. 

Maybe this is just married couple b*tchiness 😉   and of course there are many, many riders who do no other sport themselves but DO have empathy for the horse as an athletes that requires regular work in order to work well etc.

I'm not of the mindset that work is intrinsically bad for horses and I feel like the work I do with mine seems to improve their enjoyment of themselves when at liberty (strange phrasing sorry but I don't know how else to describe what I see - like being fit and well muscled with good core tone kind of puffs them up and makes them move with a proud swinging step or something,  they just seem happier when fit to me)... so I'm not as negative about the welfare of working horses as perhaps some are? I don't know.  But I do think all work should be done with a very high degree of consideration for what we are asking them to do.  Both in terms of conditioning for their work and in terms of the weight we ask them to carry.


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## CanteringCarrot (25 July 2022)

People are rather obvious and selfish. We're all guilty to some extent. There are a lot of overweight riders out there and there are also overweight participants in other sports too, but the difference is that they aren't on an animal. Literally doesn't bother anyone but myself if I'm carrying a lot of extra weight and playing tennis, but it certainly bothers my horse if I do, and he shouldn't have to carry me around if I'm too heavy and/or not fit. Why should he be the fit one and not me? We both need to be.

I remember when I first started eventing as a teen and saved up enough money to by myself a TB that failed race training (too slow to be competitive but really lovely movement for sport). I spent time in the gym working on my cardio and strength to be fit for that horse and for what I wanted us to accomplish together.

I did play many sports when younger and have been working out for ages. So I'm aware of my body and how it feels. I also structure my horses routine with adequate recovery time and variety. He's not a machine nor is he something I can just joyride on whenever I see fit.

I almost wish that in addition to riding lessons, that people would take lessons on understanding the horse. The horse can tell and teach us a lot, but you need to listen. When you can understand the horse your training is better and your horse feels better. On the whole, it's just more rewarding and serene, but people are so clueless, or shape things into how they want things to be.

Normally I don't care about people being bad at a sport, only playing once a month, or not taking it seriously, but when you involve an animal, you've got to take things more seriously.


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## ycbm (25 July 2022)

PapaverFollis said:



			Myself and MrPF have often observed between us on various yards that many horse riders do not take part in other sports themselves and do not seem to understand that doing nothing for several weeks then doing a hard training session... hurts!  We have often observed an ignorance or lack of empathy for the horse as an athlete that needs to be carefully conditioned to do the work we require of her.  And our theory is that this may be down to many horse riders never having trained for a hard running race themselves for example, or anything similar.

Maybe this is just married couple b*tchiness 😉   and of course there are many, many riders who do no other sport themselves but DO have empathy for the horse as an athletes that requires regular work in order to work well etc.

I'm not of the mindset that work is intrinsically bad for horses and I feel like the work I do with mine seems to improve their enjoyment of themselves when at liberty (strange phrasing sorry but I don't know how else to describe what I see - like being fit and well muscled with good core tone kind of puffs them up and makes them move with a proud swinging step or something,  they just seem happier when fit to me)... so I'm not as negative about the welfare of working horses as perhaps some are? I don't know.  But I do think all work should be done with a very high degree of consideration for what we are asking them to do.  Both in terms of conditioning for their work and in terms of the weight we ask them to carry.
		
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This.  I've only been on one camp but I was shocked at people thinking that they should take a horse that's only ridden for an hour or so a few times a week,  and rarely two days in a row, to a 3 day,  twice a day camp and do the maximum work in each session.  I overheard someone out on a hunt one day say that the horse hasn't been ridden for seven weeks, as an explanation for why it was losing its mind after 3 hours!  Maybe we should make it mandatory for all riders to do a form of strenuous muscular exercise and experience the 48 hour build up to maximum pain from doing more than you're accustomed to 🤔 ?
.


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## marmalade76 (25 July 2022)

CanteringCarrot said:



			My own horse, although he's almost 15.3 is not a weight carrier. I know that if I were to put on weight I'd have to stop riding him. Someone heavier and taller than me rode him once and there was a visible difference. This man was not "fat" or obese at all really, but just too heavy for that horse. So while I like a firm rule of x% in my head, because it's black and white, in reality, it isn't so black and white. There probably are other horses of my horses size and weight that could've carried that heavier rider.
		
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He may not have been too heavy, but too tall. My current horse is 15.1 TB x pony (looks like an over grown pony) and is noticeably uncomfortable with tall riders even though they weigh no more than I do (I fluctuate between 10.7 and 11 stone and am only 5'1" at the most). It had previously been noted by a friend who knew him before I bought him that he always went better for short riders. He is built a little downhill so this may be the reason, my little arab who was very up in front never seemed affected by rider height.


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## cariadbach10 (25 July 2022)

ycbm said:



			Just because you can doesn't mean you should.
.
		
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Goldie's mum said:



			They do actually have a weight limit though, which puts them ahead of us.
		
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Fair point. But it’s way over what 20% of those horse’s weight would be. And these are the horses that Genghis Khan’s army conquered much of Asia, Russia and the Middle East on. I should imagine the Mongol herders who own these horses would fall about laughing at the thought of an eleven stone lady being worried about trotting a cob around a showring for fifteen minutes. But then showing is pretty ridiculous nowadays anyway, when you start to break it down.


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## CanteringCarrot (25 July 2022)

marmalade76 said:



			He may not have been too heavy, but too tall. My current horse is 15.1 TB x pony (looks like an over grown pony) and is noticeably uncomfortable with tall riders even though they weigh no more than I do (I fluctuate between 10.7 and 11 stone and am only 5'1" at the most). It had previously been noted by a friend who knew him before I bought him that he always went better for short riders. He is built a little downhill so this may be the reason, my little arab who was very up in front never seemed affected by rider height.
		
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I don't think that was the case. Another woman rode him a few times last summer and she's taller than me and this man, but quite thin. She's a very long person and he was ok with that. I could really see a difference in his back and hindend when the man rode him.


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## Dexter (25 July 2022)

cariadbach10 said:



			Fair point. But it’s way over what 20% of those horse’s weight would be. And these are the horses that Genghis Khan’s army conquered much of Asia, Russia and the Middle East on. I should imagine the Mongol herders who own these horses would fall about laughing at the thought of an eleven stone lady being worried about trotting a cob around a showring for fifteen minutes. But then showing is pretty ridiculous nowadays anyway, when you start to break it down.
		
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I wouldnt be holding Mongol herders up as an example of good horsemanship. They dont really take care of their horses at all. They leave them be to fend for themselves and they can end up incredibly poor. They also geld colts at 3 with no anesthetic or pain killer.


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## Barton Bounty (25 July 2022)

marmalade76 said:



			He may not have been too heavy, but too tall. My current horse is 15.1 TB x pony (looks like an over grown pony) and is noticeably uncomfortable with tall riders even though they weigh no more than I do (I fluctuate between 10.7 and 11 stone and am only 5'1" at the most). It had previously been noted by a friend who knew him before I bought him that he always went better for short riders. He is built a little downhill so this may be the reason, my little arab who was very up in front never seemed affected by rider height.
		
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My horse seems off balance with taller riders, ok at walk but anything else he doesnt like, used to my wee short arse probably since no one was ever brave enough to ride him 😂


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## Cortez (25 July 2022)

Dexter said:



			I wouldnt be holding Mongol herders up as an example of good horsemanship. They dont really take care of their horses at all. They leave them be to fend for themselves and they can end up incredibly poor. They also geld colts at 3 with no anesthetic or pain killer.
		
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I have ridden in Mongolia, and this ^^^ is absolutely true. However, most Mongols are not heavy and the horses do not routinely have to carry anything close to 85kg.


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## cariadbach10 (25 July 2022)

Dexter said:



			I wouldnt be holding Mongol herders up as an example of good horsemanship. They dont really take care of their horses at all. They leave them be to fend for themselves and they can end up incredibly poor. They also geld colts at 3 with no anesthetic or pain killer.
		
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I see what you’re saying. But there has to be somewhere in the middle ground, where we recognise that horses are capable of way more than we perhaps think. I’m not condoning putting massively overweight riders on obese horses. That looks rubbish and isn’t great for either party. But a fit endurance horse with a fit rider carrying 20-25%? Many a hundred mile race has been won with that conbo. Long riders have travelled across continents with those kind of ratios.
My 27 year old Arab has carried me for eighteen years as a happy hacker and had a long career in racing prior to that.  I’ve never been below 11 stone (or above 13.7) He’s still ridden now, checked by osteo and physio, everything still working if a touch creaky. I clearly haven’t killed him! He’s a tough little horse. 🤷‍♀️


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## Barton Bounty (25 July 2022)

cariadbach10 said:



			I see what you’re saying. But there has to be somewhere in the middle ground, where we recognise that horses are capable of way more than we perhaps think. I’m not condoning putting massively overweight riders on obese horses. That looks rubbish and isn’t great for either party. But a fit endurance horse with a fit rider carrying 20-25%? Many a hundred mile race has been won with that conbo. Long riders have travelled across continents with those kind of ratios.
My 27 year old Arab has carried me for eighteen years as a happy hacker and had a long career in racing prior to that.  I’ve never been below 11 stone (or above 13.7) He’s still ridden now, checked by osteo and physio, everything still working if a touch creaky. I clearly haven’t killed him! He’s a tough little horse. 🤷‍♀️
		
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The arabs in saudi carry large grown men , not saying its right but they do


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## PapaverFollis (25 July 2022)

A tough little mongol horse that has generations of tough little horses behind it... non-tough ones will have been weeded out by virtue of not standing up to work/a hard life in a hard environment... is a different prospect from our horses that have had specialist farriery correcting genetic weaknesses and vet care and cosseting for generations and haven't necessarily been bred with long term soundness and general toughness in mind. We even have had a certain level of acceptance of breeding from unsound mares, in some circles at least. Plus a mongol horse will probably not be carrying the weight of two riders in its own fat on its leg joints already will it?  (Though rider weight obviously still matters in terms of the back, being concentrated in place it certainly helps if the horse is slim and fit overall.)


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## Cortez (25 July 2022)

PapaverFollis said:



			A tough little mongol horse that has generations of tough little horses behind it... non-tough ones will have been weeded out by virtue of not standing up to work/a hard life in a hard environment... is a different prospect from our horses that have had specialist farriery correcting genetic weaknesses and vet care and cosseting for generations and haven't necessarily been bred with long term soundness and general toughness in mind. We even have had a certain level of acceptance of breeding from unsound mares, in some circles at least. Plus a mongol horse will probably not be carrying the weight of two riders in its own fat on its leg joints already will it?  (Though rider weight obviously still matters in terms of the back, being concentrated in place it certainly helps if the horse is slim and fit overall.)
		
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Mongol horses, Icelandic horses, Quarter horses, Arabian horses; there are many tough little horses out there that seem to do quite well with higher weights than would be deemed suitable for horses of equal height here, but I would posit that most of those - with the exception of Quarter horses and Arabs in America - are not routinely carrying the sorts of weights that some of our show and leisure horses are asked to carry.


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## linka (25 July 2022)

Barton Bounty said:



			The arabs in saudi carry large grown men , not saying its right but they do
		
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I follow some breed accounts from that part of the world, on both sides of the Gulf, and both the riding styles and size of riders on very young horses are hair-raising and just as distressing as the incidents noted above. I do not know, but I suspect, that you're looking in most cases at a substantially shorter ridden career for horses there.


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## Barton Bounty (25 July 2022)

linka said:



			I follow some breed accounts from that part of the world, on both sides of the Gulf, and both the riding styles and size of riders on very young horses are hair-raising and just as distressing as the incidents noted above. I do not know, but I suspect, that you're looking in most cases at a substantially shorter ridden career for horses there.
		
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Sadly I would imagine so, i just swipe past them on you tube but I have seen it


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## Dexter (25 July 2022)

cariadbach10 said:



			I see what you’re saying. But there has to be somewhere in the middle ground, where we recognise that horses are capable of way more than we perhaps think. I’m not condoning putting massively overweight riders on obese horses. That looks rubbish and isn’t great for either party. But a fit endurance horse with a fit rider carrying 20-25%? Many a hundred mile race has been won with that conbo. Long riders have travelled across continents with those kind of ratios.
My 27 year old Arab has carried me for eighteen years as a happy hacker and had a long career in racing prior to that.  I’ve never been below 11 stone (or above 13.7) He’s still ridden now, checked by osteo and physio, everything still working if a touch creaky. I clearly haven’t killed him! He’s a tough little horse. 🤷‍♀️
		
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But the research is showing that they are capable of LESS than we think. It was always 25%, then it was shown that 15% was actually probably the limit, and even 20% negatively affected horses soundness and muscle soreness. 

I'm not saying they arent capable of it, but should we be asking it off them knowing what we now know?


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## PapaverFollis (25 July 2022)

Cortez said:



			Mongol horses, Icelandic horses, Quarter horses, Arabian horses; there are many tough little horses out there that seem to do quite well with higher weights than would be deemed suitable for horses of equal height here, but I would posit that most of those - with the exception of Quarter horses and Arabs in America - are not routinely carrying the sorts of weights that some of our show and leisure horses are asked to carry.
		
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Yes. I was going to add something along those lines.  The horses used in the race linked to above only have to carry a tall, heavy westerner for, what? A month? A couple of weeks? On and off as horses seem to be swapped every stage. Maybe just once or twice in their lives. Maybe every year. Then it goes back to carrying the smaller, slighter mongol rider. That is also a different prospect than carrying a too heavy rider week in, week out for its entire working life.

And do we have any information on how much physical toll it takes on them to take part in the event?  Obviously they are vet checked on route.  Buy what about long term damage? Compared to similar horses that never take part in that event, what are average outcomes etc.

I don't think it is valid to point at those horses doing that race to justify overweight Bridget bouncing around on the cantle of overweight Bob the Cob's saddle three times a week for as long as he can stand up to it.


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## cariadbach10 (25 July 2022)

Dexter said:



			But the research is showing that they are capable of LESS than we think. It was always 25%, then it was shown that 15% was actually probably the limit, and even 20% negatively affected horses soundness and muscle soreness.

I'm not saying they arent capable of it, but should we be asking it off them knowing what we now know?
		
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Aren't you getting to the point then where you're saying that people shouldn't ride horses at all?


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## Cortez (25 July 2022)

cariadbach10 said:



			Aren't you getting to the point then where you're saying that people shouldn't ride horses at all?
		
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People who are too heavy shouldn't ride horses, I think that was the original point of this post until people who were heavy started claiming they were being victimised.


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## Barton Bounty (25 July 2022)

Oh here we go again 😂😂😂


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## Tiddlypom (25 July 2022)

Ambers Echo said:



			Our local RDA centre has a weight chart on the wall with all horses listed and the balanced and unbalanced weight they are allowed to carry. It's not emotive/judgemtnal thoigh f course I appreciate some riders find it so. But it's just 'this is the limit' and if it is unclear whether a rider is within that limit, then they are weighed.
		
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Ambers Echo said:



			About a stone. I can go and look next time I am up there if you are interested
		
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Good on that RDA centre, AE.

It often comes up on here as to whether a horse can cope better with a heavier balanced rider or a lighter unbalanced rider. I think that a heavier balanced rider is better, BUT that rider ought still be within the 15%. That leaves the unbalanced/novice rider needing to come in at significantly under the 15%.


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## Barton Bounty (25 July 2022)

Tiddlypom said:



			Good on that RDA centre, AE.

It often comes up on here as to whether a horse can cope better with a heavier balanced rider or a lighter unbalanced rider. I think that a heavier balanced rider is better, BUT that rider ought still be within the 15%. That leaves the unbalanced/novice rider needing to come in at significantly under the 15%.
		
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I thought i saw that chart on google actually


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## cariadbach10 (25 July 2022)

Tiddlypom said:



			Good on that RDA centre, AE.

It often comes up on here as to whether a horse can cope better with a heavier balanced rider or a lighter unbalanced rider. I think that a heavier balanced rider is better, BUT that rider ought still be within the 15%. That leaves the unbalanced/novice rider needing to come in at significantly under the 15%.
		
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Heck. That's me not able to ride my horses forever if it's 15%. Must sell them to a small child, as that's pretty much all they would be capable of carrying according to that rule.


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## Barton Bounty (25 July 2022)

cariadbach10 said:



			Heck. That's me not able to ride my horses forever if it's 15%. Must sell them to a small child, as that's pretty much all they would be capable of carrying according to that rule.
		
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 Agree its bizarre


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## Tiddlypom (25 July 2022)

My homebred lightweight 15.2 hh sports horse mare weighs in at 500kg. At 15% she can carry a rider of 10 1/2 stone naked weight - hardly a small child. A large one, maybe...

If your horse isn't up to your weight you need to either lose weight, to change the horse, or to just stop riding the horse 🤷‍♀️.


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## Hallo2012 (25 July 2022)

Barton Bounty said:



			Agree its bizarre
		
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why is it bizarre?

i am 5'7 adult and 15% inc saddle, of my 13hh pony.

15% of an average horse is 11-12 stone....not a small child?!


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## windand rain (25 July 2022)

Someone seriously advised me that 5% was the optimum and 10% the top limit which would mean my skinny 6 year old grandson would be too heavy for my highland pony. At 5%


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## fetlock (25 July 2022)

Basing it on the 15% rule do we need to tell the pony eventing squad they can’t go to Poland next week?

if an event pony (chunkier connies aside) is around 400kg the rider would have to be no more than seven and a half stones.


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## Barton Bounty (25 July 2022)

Hallo2012 said:



			why is it bizarre?

i am 5'7 adult and 15% inc saddle, of my 13hh pony.

15% of an average horse is 11-12 stone....not a small child?!
		
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I was responding to someone elses comment? 
Not all of us are built like the side end of a fiver and ride tiny ponies, my boobs probably weigh more than your leg, and no they don’t disappear on a diet 🤷🏼‍♀️

but I am however allowed an opinion that doesn’t require questioning by everyone else 🤷🏼‍♀️


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## cariadbach10 (25 July 2022)

Tiddlypom said:



			My homebred lightweight 15.2 hh sports horse mare weighs in at 500kg. At 15% she can carry a rider of 10 1/2 stone - hardly a small child. A large one, maybe...

If your horse isn't up to your weight you need to either lose weight, to change the horse, or to just stop riding the horse 🤷‍♀️.
		
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Oof- that's me told! Right, who's going to help me write the ad for my ancient one?

 'Irascible 27 year old 15hh Arab. Cushings, melanoma, arthritic from racing career, hacks alone or in company, still takes off in open spaces, can't be retired as seizes up which worsens arthritis, can't be stabled, hates travelling or being mollycoddled, exists on mushy speedibeet and cheese and onion crisps on his regular pub rides. Same home for eighteen years, but a lady on an Internet forum says  owner is too fat and should 'change him' hence sad sale.' 

I think if everyone who was over 15% sold their horses we would have a welfare nightmare on our hands.


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## Barton Bounty (25 July 2022)

cariadbach10 said:



			Oof- that's me told! Right, who's going to help me write the ad for my ancient one?

'Irascible 27 year old 15hh Arab. Cushings, melanoma, arthritic from racing career, hacks alone or in company, still takes off in open spaces, can't be retired as seizes up which worsens arthritis, can't be stabled, hates travelling or being mollycoddled, exists on mushy speedibeet and cheese and onion crisps on his regular pub rides. Same home for eighteen years, but a lady on an Internet forum says  owner is too fat and should 'change him' hence sad sale.'

I think if everyone who was over 15% sold their horses we would have a welfare nightmare on our hands.
		
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Apparently responding to you irked others too 😂😂😂


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## Bay.chestnut.coloure (25 July 2022)

Well this thread has me quite worried as I’m just about to buy a 17hh Irish sports horse. 
and well I am currently 16 stone because covid and other life issues got in the way. I hate to admit I have gained 4 stone in the last 2 years. I’ve already been to see the horse once, and will be going back again on Wednesday to ride and have vetted. The owners don’t seem to have any objects about my weight, they haven’t mentioned it and seem very keen for me to have him. I have worked out that if I estimate said horse is 600kg I would be about 18% including tack.. is that too much???? 😰


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## Hallo2012 (25 July 2022)

Barton Bounty said:



			I was responding to someone elses comment?
Not all of us are built like the side end of a fiver and ride tiny ponies, my boobs probably weigh more than your leg, and no they don’t disappear on a diet 🤷🏼‍♀️

but I am however allowed an opinion that doesn’t require questioning by everyone else 🤷🏼‍♀️
		
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its a public forum, questions and questioning is what goes on here.

anyone can reply to anything, thats how it works.

regardless of whether they do or do not disappear for any reason, it has been indicated that weights in excess of 15% negatively impact the horse and EVERY rider needs to take that in to consideration (in my opinion which you are free to reply to, ignore,disagree with or whatever just as i am, to yours!)

just because people don't like it, doesn't mean it doesn't still affect the horse they wish to carry them.


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## Barton Bounty (25 July 2022)

Bay.chestnut.coloure said:



			Well this thread has me quite worried as I’m just about to buy a 17hh Irish sports horse.
and well I am currently 16 stone because covid and other life issues got in the way. I hate to admit I have gained 4 stone in the last 2 years. I’ve already been to see the horse once, and will be going back again on Wednesday to ride and have vetted. The owners don’t seem to have any objects about my weight, they haven’t mentioned it and seem very keen for me to have him. I have worked out that if I estimate said horse is 600kg I would be about 18% including tack.. is that too much???? 😰
		
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I would say your absolutely fine! So will many others Others may criticise the hell out you but… this thread was supposed to about showing.


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## Barton Bounty (25 July 2022)

Hallo2012 said:



			its a public forum, questions and questioning is what goes on here.

anyone can reply to anything, thats how it works.

regardless of whether they do or do not disappear for any reason, it has been indicated that weights in excess of 15% negatively impact the horse and EVERY rider needs to take that in to consideration (in my opinion which you are free to reply to, ignore,disagree with or whatever just as i am, to yours!)

just because people don't like it, doesn't mean it doesn't still affect the horse they wish to carry them.
		
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Have a Wonderful day ☺️


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## PapaverFollis (25 July 2022)

So we're not allowed to "fat shame" but we can use derogatory language to criticise a person who is a healthy weight? 😕 10.5 stone is going to be bang in the middle of healthy weight for many people.


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## Ambers Echo (25 July 2022)

fetlock said:



			Basing it on the 15% rule do we need to tell the pony eventing squad they can’t go to Poland next week?

if an event pony (chunkier connies aside) is around 400kg the rider would have to be no more than seven and a half stones.
		
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Ponies are a lot stronger pound for pound than horses. Think shire vs shetland. So the 20% rule makes more sense. So a 400kg event pony can carry 80kg inc tack.  I've seen the gold medal winning team at various events doing demos or whatever. They are all fit and slim and well under those weights. 

I think everyone agrees that if you are 'too heavy' for a particular horse then you should not ride it. As a basic, non judgemental, statement of fact. But defining 'too heavy' is a minefield. I still think the national governing bodies need to address the issue though, not ignore it, despite the complexities.


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## Birker2020 (25 July 2022)

Cortez said:



			People who are too heavy shouldn't ride horses, I think that was the original point of this post until people who were heavy started claiming they were being victimised.
		
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Well I certainly didn't say I was being victimised so I really hope that wasn't aimed at me. I just stated that some horses are more 'weight carriers' than others and you can't compare what a 17.1hh TB weighing 600kg with 8" bone can carry against a 17.1hh WB with 9 1/2" bone.

I then showed 2 photos of me and my horse with an explanation.  Wasn't looking for forgiveness, justification or anything else but if there any other heavier riders on the forum that have been made to feel guilty then you are not alone.


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## Birker2020 (25 July 2022)

Barton Bounty said:



			but I am however allowed an opinion that doesn’t require questioning by everyone else 🤷🏼‍♀️
		
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Not allowed on here I'm afraid BB.


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## Barton Bounty (25 July 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			Not allowed on here I'm afraid BB. 

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And apparently not lolol


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## Tiddlypom (25 July 2022)

cariadbach10 said:



			Same home for eighteen years, but a lady on an Internet forum says owner is too fat and should 'change him' hence sad sale.'
		
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At no point did I say that anyone was too fat. This thread is all about what weight horses should be expected to carry. Many of us think that the often quoted 20% guide is too generous, and think that 15% is much fairer to the horse.

I have my own weight struggles, but the lightest that I can do at my height (5ft 10ins) and chunky build is 11 stone 1lb. Even then my osteo ticked me off for losing too much weight as my backbone and ribs were sticking out, I am definitely not 'fat' at that weight. So I accept that that limits what horses I could, should and do ride.


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## Cortez (25 July 2022)

Like you Tiddlypom, I am tall and sturdy. I have weighed roughly the same all my adult life (between 10.5 and 11.5 stone). Does this entitle me to ride any horse or pony that I please? No, of course it doesn't. But I'm not getting all shirty with people who tell me, and I wouldn't dream of getting on anything under 15 hands or so, or slightly built.


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## ycbm (25 July 2022)

I'd be interested to know if there is anyone on this thread whose horse is carrying 15% or under of its own fit weight arguing that the 15% limit is too low. It's my impression that it's mostly  people who are over 15% who believe that 20% is the right limit.

I'm not talking about fat here, just weight.  My fit but very tall and heavy-framed OH would be under 20% of my horse's weight but there is no way I would let him even sit on him.
.


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## fetlock (25 July 2022)

What about calculations based on this one? (Taken from Scarsdale vets website)


“Bone” is the measurement of the circumference of the foreleg cannon bone,
just below the knee. One useful formula for determining if a horse can handle your weight is: Add the weight of the horse, rider, and tack together, divide this number by the cannon bone’s circumference, then divide that figure by 2; the result should be between 75 and 85.
When the number is higher than this, you are too heavy for the horse.”


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## The Fuzzy Furry (25 July 2022)

ycbm said:



			I'd be interested to know if there is anyone on this thread whose horse is carrying 15% or under of its own fit weight arguing that the 15% limit is too low. It's my impression that it's mostly  people who are over 15% who believe that 20% is the right limit.

I'm not talking about fat here, just weight.  My fit but very tall and heavy-framed OH would be under 20% of my horse's weight but there is no way I would let him even sit on him.
.
		
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My own rule is max 15% (inc all tack etc) on a hacking fit animal and 12.5/13% max for strenuous comps, long days in the saddle, inc drag hunting etc.
I'd not entertain 20% at any time on any of mine, past or present,  but that's my own choice. 

My biggest bug bear right now? Overweight riders bottoms bulging over the seat of their saddle, often in a saddle that's too long for their mount in the 1st place! Shoot me for saying so 😜


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## Cortez (25 July 2022)

fetlock said:



			Basing it on the 15% rule do we need to tell the pony eventing squad they can’t go to Poland next week?

if an event pony (chunkier connies aside) is around 400kg the rider would have to be no more than seven and a half stones.
		
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I think your maths is a bit off there Fetlock..........15% would be in excess of 11 stone.


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## stangs (25 July 2022)

Cortez said:



			I think your maths is a bit off there Fetlock..........15% would be in excess of 11 stone.
		
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15% of 400 = 60kg, so a little under 10st.


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## ycbm (25 July 2022)

fetlock said:



			What about calculations based on this one? (Taken from Scarsdale vets website)


“Bone” is the measurement of the circumference of the foreleg cannon bone,
just below the knee. One useful formula for determining if a horse can handle your weight is: Add the weight of the horse, rider, and tack together, divide this number by the cannon bone’s circumference, then divide that figure by 2; the result should be between 75 and 85.
When the number is higher than this, you are too heavy for the horse.”
		
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It's bollocks, frankly. That measure would have Shires coming out as being able to carry some of the greatest weights when they are notoriously weak backed for their size.

ETA what measures are they using?  Kilos,  pounds,  some,  inches,  millimetres?  I can't make any sensible weight and bone measurement fit. 
.


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## PapaverFollis (25 July 2022)

A 300kg pony can carry 7.5 stone by the 15% rule... (including tack)


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## Cortez (25 July 2022)

stangs said:



			15% of 400 = 60kg, so a little under 10st.
		
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Apologies, you are correct (I did the calculation on 18%....for some unknown reason). Still not an outrageous weight limit for a presumably fit teenager though, surely?


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## Hallo2012 (25 July 2022)

ycbm said:



			I'd be interested to know if there is anyone on this thread whose horse is carrying 15% or under of its own fit weight arguing that the 15% limit is too low. It's my impression that it's mostly  people who are over 15% who believe that 20% is the right limit.

I'm not talking about fat here, just weight.  My fit but very tall and heavy-framed OH would be under 20% of my horse's weight but there is no way I would let him even sit on him.
.
		
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yup-my triathlon fit OH is only 21% of my two (inc saddle) and it would NEVER be fair to suggest he could ride them.


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## PapaverFollis (25 July 2022)

10 stone is not at all an outrageous limit for an adult really.  It is my target weight and I'm 5ft7 and hardly a waif.


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## stangs (25 July 2022)

Cortez said:



			Apologies, you are correct (I did the calculation on 18%....for some unknown reason). Still not an outrageous weight limit for a presumably fit teenager though, surely?
		
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Reasonable weight limit in my eyes.

Having said that, as the population grows taller, surely there'll be a steady increase in people who can ride a very limited number of horses, even when at their lowest healthy weight?


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## fetlock (25 July 2022)

Cortez said:



			I think your maths is a bit off there Fetlock..........15% would be in excess of 11 stone.
		
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it wouldn’t be the first time Cortez. Is 15% not 60kg , which is 10 stones ish? Then take off the tack and clothing weight and that leaves a rider weight of not much more than 7.5 stones if not to exceed 15% in total?


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## RachelFerd (25 July 2022)

Cortez said:



			Apologies, you are correct (I did the calculation on 18%....for some unknown reason). Still not an outrageous weight limit for a presumably fit teenager though, surely?
		
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Not at all outrageous - would have thought most those pony riders are in the 7-9st bracket. I was 8 stone and 5'10 at 17/18 - and not underweight or unhealthy at that weight. Just fit and active.


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## fetlock (25 July 2022)

ycbm said:



			It's bollocks, frankly. That measure would have Shires coming out as being able to carry some of the greatest weights when they are notoriously weak backed for their size.

ETA what measures are they using?  Kilos,  pounds,  some,  inches,  millimetres?  I can't make any sensible weight and bone measurement fit.
.
		
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I can’t work it out either


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## ycbm (25 July 2022)

stangs said:



			Having said that, as the population grows taller, surely there'll be a steady increase in people who can ride a very limited number of horses, even when at their lowest healthy weight?
		
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Of course.  What of it, there is no gods given right to sit on a horse.


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## Cortez (25 July 2022)

stangs said:



			Having said that, as the population grows taller, surely there'll be a steady increase in people who can ride a very limited number of horses, even when at their lowest healthy weight?
		
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The Dutch are the tallest population in Europe, they are also, I think, the slimmest. Quite a lot of them ride.


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## Hallo2012 (25 July 2022)

PapaverFollis said:



			A 300kg pony can carry 7.5 stone by the 15% rule... (including tack)
		
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i'd say thats about right?

mine are 385 on a weigh bridge, i am 50kg clothed and saddle is 7kg.

id be happy to put 9 stone on the C for slow hacking which would put him at 16.8%..... for anything requiring him to use his athletic ability its me and only me!

the B will carry no more than me ever as has the welsh dippy back and can only carry a 15.5 saddle (the C can take a roomy 16 or even 16.5)


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## PapaverFollis (25 July 2022)

Even for a 6ft woman, 16 stone is obese.  People would have to get very tall to exceed that proposed upper limit for riding and be a healthy weight.  (Healthy weight range for a 6ft woman is 9 stone 11lb to 13 stone 3lb)


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## TPO (25 July 2022)

PapaverFollis said:



			Even for a 6ft woman, 16 stone is obese.  People would have to get very tall to exceed that proposed upper limit for riding and be a healthy weight.  (Healthy weight range for a 6ft woman is 9 stone 11lb to 13 stone 3lb)
		
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So I'm not too fat I'm just too short 🤔🤣


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## CanteringCarrot (25 July 2022)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			My biggest bug bear right now? Overweight riders bottoms bulging over the seat of their saddle, often in a saddle that's too long for their mount in the 1st place! Shoot me for saying so 😜
		
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Oh yes, hate seeing that!


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## PapaverFollis (25 July 2022)

Stretching rack for you, TPO? 😝

Our view of what is a healthy and normal weight for people has become very, very scewed upwards.  I was well into overweight at 13 stone and I don't think anyone would have said I was "fat".  At 10.5 stone I'm sitting happily in the middle of a healthy weight.  But apparently that makes me a target for being ridiculed as "skinny", when in reality I still look like a rugby player, with ample hips and boobs thanks very much.  Twenty years ago I came back from my gap year in America weighing 11 stone and I was told by some (pervy) bloke while on jury duty that he liked "big, solid women" (*vom* and inappropriate but that's beside the point).  20 years ago me at 11 stone was being told I was "big" and "solid"...


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## CanteringCarrot (25 July 2022)

TPO said:



			So I'm not too fat I'm just too short 🤔🤣
		
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This is sound logic. I approve.



😂


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## Roasted Chestnuts (25 July 2022)

From reading parts of this thread and the constant 10st being referred to that we are all talking about women riders? My OH at 10stone would be a skeleton with organs, he’s 6ft4. Even when he was fit he was healthily around 13st with his height and build, he’s not a slim built guy. Do you think olly Townsend or William fox Pitt are 10st?

So again are we prejudicing against men or are we just bashing our fellow women who can’t be 10st? Me at 10st on the scales does not look like 10st. 15% of Farans weight right now is 86kgs, me with tack is less than that, 20% of Farans weight would be 117kgs however when you look at me in picture riding folk would say I’m too heavy for him but I’m less than the 15% rule.

I personally find these threads disgusting. Yes it’s about welfare but it is also very telling in our ways of looking at each other that we are very willing to speculate on peoples weight and suitability for riding based on looking at them.

I haven’t read every reply but what I have read has made me rather sad in all aspects


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## Cortez (25 July 2022)

Cheeky Chestnut said:



			From reading parts of this thread and the constant 10st being referred to that we are all talking about women riders? My OH at 10stone would be a skeleton with organs, he’s 6ft4. Even when he was fit he was healthily around 13st with his height and build, he’s not a slim built guy. Do you think olly Townsend or William fox Pitt are 10st?

So again are we prejudicing against men or are we just bashing our fellow women who can’t be 10st? Me at 10st on the scales does not look like 10st. 15% of Farans weight right now is 86kgs, me with tack is less than that, 20% of Farans weight would be 117kgs however when you look at me in picture riding folk would say I’m too heavy for him but I’m less than the 15% rule.

I personally find these threads disgusting. Yes it’s about welfare but it is also very telling in our ways of looking at each other that we are very willing to speculate on peoples weight and suitability for riding based on looking at them.

I haven’t read every reply but what I have read has made me rather sad in all aspects
		
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I must have missed where people were commenting on anyone's appearance, I think the vast majority of the discussion has centered around what weight it is reasonable or ethical to expect a horse to carry.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (25 July 2022)

Cortez said:



			I must have missed where people were commenting on anyone's appearance, I think the vast majority of the discussion has centered around what weight it is reasonable or ethical to expect a horse to carry.
		
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It must be about appearance as how can you comment on if someone is too big or heavy by not looking at them?? The whole thread is about speculating on peoples weight. People have mentioned how they sit in the saddle and hanging over it so again going on appearance.


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## cariadbach10 (25 July 2022)

Cheeky Chestnut said:



			It must be about appearance as how can you say someone is too big or heavy by not looking at them?? The whole thread is about speculating on peoples weight. People have mentioned how they sit in the saddle and hanging over it so again going on appearance.
		
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 From a place of love, I think you've misunderstood. The thread has focused more on numbers (rider weight in kg/stone and percentages) than images. It can be very hard to tell weight from visuals, unless they're REALLY striking!


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## CanteringCarrot (25 July 2022)

Cheeky Chestnut said:



			It must be about appearance as how can you comment on if someone is too big or heavy by not looking at them?? The whole thread is about speculating on peoples weight. People have mentioned how they sit in the saddle and hanging over it so again going on appearance.
		
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So what do we do? Just ignore it? Never address it? Horse welfare isn't a thing? Genuine questions.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (25 July 2022)

CanteringCarrot said:



			So what do we do? Just ignore it? Never address it? Horse welfare isn't a thing? Genuine questions.
		
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So are we accusing world class male riders in all disciplines of animal abuse now then? Genuine question??

I never said don’t address it, however more thought needs to go into it other than setting weights etc. more factors come into it than just weight


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## PapaverFollis (25 July 2022)

People know how much they weigh.  Other people's perceptions of them may vary.

If world class male riders are heavier than 15% of their horse's weight including tack... then yeah.  MrPF is my height and weighs the same as me.  Granted he looks slimmer than me.

Healthy weight range for a 6ft4 male is 10st12lb to 14st9lb... Still less than 16 stone.


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## Dexter (25 July 2022)

Cheeky Chestnut said:



			So are we accusing world class male riders in all disciplines of animal abuse now then? Genuine question??

I never said don’t address it, however more thought needs to go into it other than setting weights etc. more factors come into it than just weight
		
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Such as? Weight is one of the only ways we can measure what a horse can comfortably carry surely?


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## CanteringCarrot (25 July 2022)

Cheeky Chestnut said:



			So are we accusing world class male riders in all disciplines of animal abuse now then? Genuine question??

I never said don’t address it, however more thought needs to go into it other than setting weights etc. more factors come into it than just weight
		
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Not sure why you put "??" after Genuine question? Did you think mine weren't?


But weight is a factor. Sometimes the heaviest (no pun intended) factor.

No one is accusing male riders in all disciplines of animal abuse. Many people here accept that there can be factors other than weight or in addition to weight, and that it can vary amongst different horses, even if the horses are the same weight or height. 

There are times when someone it simply to heavy for their horse. 

There are indeed some male riders too heavy or tall or both for their mounts. Generally you don't see that at the top of the sport, for a variety of reasons. 

I think fitness of horse and rider plays a huge role too. As does height and body shape sometimes (yes those are appearance things but how else do you access).


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## PapaverFollis (25 July 2022)

Mark Todd weighs 82kg.
William Fox-Pit weighs 80kg.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (25 July 2022)

Dexter said:



			Such as? Weight is one of the only ways we can measure what a horse can comfortably carry surely?
		
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We know the other factors, they have been mentioned countless times before.


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## ycbm (25 July 2022)

Cheeky Chestnut said:



			So are we accusing world class male riders in all disciplines of animal abuse now then? Genuine question??
		
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How many world class riders are more than 15% of their horses normal fit weight?

Mark Todd was big on the tiny Charisma but he was whip thin,  his saddle was minute and the horse himself was running at least 25 kilos light that can be counted in to lower the rider weight.
.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (25 July 2022)

Cheeky Chestnut said:



			It must be about appearance as how can you comment on if someone is too big or heavy by not looking at them?? The whole thread is about speculating on peoples weight. People have mentioned how they sit in the saddle and hanging over it so again going on appearance.
		
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Not 'people' but me.
I've seen a few in the last couple of years, 18" saddles and a huge bottom spreading over the back, from a clearly overweight person. A local was exactly this, she was 19 stone and deluding herself and still riding, till her horse broke - 3 times - till her vet told her he wasnt at all happy about treating the horse for her if she wasnt prepared to help it. Yes, I know her weight as she did a slimming plan and proudly stated start weight once she had shed 9 stone. Her 17hh horse is now in a 17" saddle, not the 18.5, it's been ridden since last October and stood up to the work to date.


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## PapaverFollis (25 July 2022)

Andrew Nicolson weighs 75kg.
Micheal Jung weighs 68kg.


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## Dexter (25 July 2022)

Cheeky Chestnut said:



			We know the other factors, they have been mentioned countless times before.
		
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I dont and I genuinely have no idea, hence why I asked, I'd like to know


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## Roasted Chestnuts (25 July 2022)

These threads always favour those naturally look  thinner and make out that they are the only ones that should be privileged to ride.

Yes there are people out there that are too heavy I never once denied that however they are raw raw spot for someone that has always been told no matter their weight that they look too chubby due to body shape.

Sitting here with a spinal injury scared to eat is making this an extremely raw thread so going to step away now


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## Cortez (25 July 2022)

There are several equestrian disciplines that require the rider to meet weight requirements. I'm not aware of there being any obese riders at competitive levels of the main equestrian sports, but perhaps others can inform us.

There seem to be several contributors to this thread who are upsetting themselves with even contemplating weight being a factor to be considered. This is not about you, it's about HORSES and their welfare, and rider weight is very much something that must be thought about.


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## PapaverFollis (25 July 2022)

Carl Hester weighs 86kg.
Edward Gal weighs 70kg.
Ben Maher weighs 68kg.
Oliver Townend weighs 83kg.

If a person looks chubby but rides at less than 15% of their horse's weight then where's the issue?   Noone is focusing on how a rider looks here, just the weight.  If I'm talking about how someone looks it is to say that we are probably underestimating rather than overestimating how much people weigh because we have completely normalised being overweight.

But in terms of horse welfare it is a person's actual weight that matters.  But they do also have to fit in an appropriately sized saddle.


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## Barton Bounty (25 July 2022)

Cheeky Chestnut said:



			It must be about appearance as how can you comment on if someone is too big or heavy by not looking at them?? The whole thread is about speculating on peoples weight. People have mentioned how they sit in the saddle and hanging over it so again going on appearance.
		
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Totally agree, ☺️


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## Cortez (25 July 2022)

....and yet here we have many people either stating their own weight (how you can tell if you're overweight or not) or informing us of the weights of several top riders.


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## Barton Bounty (25 July 2022)

Cheeky Chestnut said:



			These threads always favour those naturally look  thinner and make out that they are the only ones that should be privileged to ride.

Yes there are people out there that are too heavy I never once denied that however they are raw raw spot for someone that has always been told no matter their weight that they look too chubby due to body shape.

Sitting here with a spinal injury scared to eat is making this an extremely raw thread so going to step away now
		
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Maybe thats what I should do @Cheeky Chestnut .. step away from the crisps 😂😂😂


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## CanteringCarrot (25 July 2022)

I mean, if someone is overfilling or hanging over the back of their saddle it doesn't fit them and it's more than likely uncomfortable for the horse too. Yes, that's appearance, but people aren't just saying it to mean it looks bad off of pure aesthetics, they're saying it because it's not correct. No matter your size, you need a saddle that propery fits you and your horse. That's basic

I'm not ashamed to admit when I don't fit into a saddle. Or when the saddle doesn't fit me and/or the horse.


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## JoannaC (25 July 2022)

Ali27 said:



			Seriously though, I knew I had put on some weight and just by cutting out alcohol and junk food, I shifted it easily. It’s quite amazing now when I go to Supermarkets, the amount of junk food, the average person has in their trolley. I’m sure there are more overweight people now than back in the olden days when there was no junk food! Just meat and veg!
		
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I can relate to this as last year my weight had slowly crept up to 11 stone, i'm 5/6, so I decided to try Noom.  Well I lost the grand total of 2 pounds which went straight back on  so I decided to accept that this was my new weight.   This year I was going in for an op and discovered my blood pressure was through the roof so had to change my diet in order to have the op.  Cutting out caffeine, salt and sugar basically meant no junk food whatsoever and I have dropped a stone.  Now I would have said I was really good when I was on Noom but we do kid ourselves.  I do still have fish and chips and the odd bit of cake etc but just eat far less and feel so much better.  The other interesting thing is I don't look any different really so it would be difficult to gauge what someone weighs.    The other thing in relation to exercise I agree it is mainly what you eat but also when.   When I was working full time I always did the horses before work in the Winter and could eat far more than when I did them in the evening over the Summer months even though I was doing the same amount of exercise.  I think this falls into the intermittent fasting as I would go longer without eating.


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## marmalade76 (25 July 2022)

Cheeky Chestnut said:



			It must be about appearance as how can you comment on if someone is too big or heavy by not looking at them?? The whole thread is about speculating on peoples weight. People have mentioned how they sit in the saddle and hanging over it so again going on appearance.
		
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Look up Blog of a cob on Instagram ( I hadn't seen it before it was mentioned on this thread and I was horrified), this is what people are referring to when they talk about hanging over the saddle! I'm no expert but this one looks nearer 20st than 10. IMO people of 10st should be able to ride just about anything over 13.2.


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## palo1 (25 July 2022)

I think the 15% calculation is a really sensible one; and 20% is probably unfair.  Measurements and calculations are useful; you can weigh tape a horse easily enough and weigh ourselves and although weigh tapes are not 100% accurate they do provide good enough information to identify whether the rider and horse are appropriate (as long as the poor horse isn't obese too of course...)  I am under the 15% calculation on my light horse though I often think I look plenty big enough BUT the maths works, the saddle fitter is able to work with both of us and the horse has worked from age 3 to 15 with nothing other than abcess related lameness.  A fair weight is a huge part of keeping a horse sound and happy though other things matter too.  Numbers aren't personal and have nothing to do with our appearance or sense of ourselves.  I find it mentally healthier to use the scales as an indicator of healthy riding weight than as judge and jury of my dietary and other choices too tbh!!  It is possible to choose not to ride or to find another horse if we cannot make the weight for a particular horse.  That happens in other sports too and whilst it isn't healthy to struggle with weight management and emotional distress around that there are lots of choices available to us to find a way through.


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## Upthecreek (25 July 2022)

I struggle to understand why some people on this thread have chosen to volunteer personal information about their weight/size if they are sensitive about it 🤷🏻‍♀️ Also why they are offended by comments which are relevant to the subject but which are not personally directed at them.

It shouldn’t need to be about judging people by their appearance and making assumptions about their weight. It should be about individuals taking personal responsibility for ensuring they are not too heavy for the horse they ride. Or if they are too heavy find a more suitable horse. In the perfect world that’s all that needs to happen.


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## Barton Bounty (25 July 2022)

I have just looked at blog of a cob on you tube, I have zero social media lol.. and that I can agree is absolutely wrong!!!


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## Peglo (25 July 2022)

marmalade76 said:



			Look up Blog of a cob on Instagram ( I hadn't seen it before it was mentioned on this thread and I was horrified), this is what people are referring to when they talk about hanging over the saddle! I'm no expert but this one looks nearer 20st than 10. IMO people of 10st should be able to ride just about anything over 13.2.
		
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just had a look at blog of a cob. Holy sh**!!! That’s the worst I’ve seen on Instagram. I couldn’t scroll past the 3rd post. Surely no one can see that and not feel desperate to help that poor horse? I’m not shaming anyone for their weight, be whatever size you want, but that rider should not be on that horse.


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## palo1 (25 July 2022)

I am very uncomfortable about referring to specific individuals but in the instance named above I think the issue of body positivity has literally overtaken equine welfare and I don't know why this is either tolerated or celebrated on social media.  Does anyone know why this hasn't been called out to a degree that riders in this situation aren't making other choices?  It utterly bewilders and concerns me and I cannot make sense of it.


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## TPO (25 July 2022)

palo1 said:



			I am very uncomfortable about referring to specific individuals but in the instance named above I think the issue of body positivity has literally overtaken equine welfare and I don't know why this is either tolerated or celebrated on social media.  Does anyone know why this hasn't been called out to a degree that riders in this situation aren't making other choices.  It utterly bewilders and concerns me and I cannot make sense of it.
		
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I don't know about this one but the Ray the goth account blocks anyone who doesn't gush about her. Anything that questions her or vaguely (as well as blatantly) questions thr weight of horse and/or rider or lameness is gone. Or so says the tattle life forum on the equestrian influencer threads.


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## palo1 (25 July 2022)

TPO said:



			I don't know about this one but the Ray the goth account blocks anyone who doesn't gush about her. Anything that questions her or vaguely (as well as blatantly) questions thr weight of horse and/or rider or lameness is gone. Or so says the tattle life forum on the equestrian influencer threads.
		
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Yes, that is what I suspected but how can companies supporting these riders not see that there are equine welfare implications in promoting their brand in this way?   There are welfare implications for riders too and one of the good things about equestrian sport is the need for riders to remain fit and healthy in order to ride.   I hate commenting on anyone's size actually and have my own struggle with the battle to both enjoy food (which I really do lol) and remain an appropriate weight for the horses I have chosen to keep and ride.  I can't have it all lol.  For me this kind of social media content is not remotely helpful in any way  - to horses or riders.  Are there people who feel otherwise though?


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## Dexter (25 July 2022)

If you read the comments there are lots of people who think its brilliant.  She got a very young lightweight connie type shes riding and it makes me want to weep for him. Hes young, hes not long broken and shes riding him without a care in the world while her follower cheer her on.

Its a welfare issue and I dont know why someone hasnt stepped in. Why arent the professionals shes involved with saying anything? Why arent people reporting her to the RSPCA et al? Without knowing who she is in real life I cant, but there must be people who know her who could. I dont understand it.


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## Barton Bounty (25 July 2022)

Its ray the goth right now, her comments must be all children who really don’t understand.. 

I now feel happy that I am
Not too fat for my boy 😂


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## Ali27 (25 July 2022)

I’ve just looked at both Raythegoth and Blog of a cob! Absolutely awful how anyone of that size can be sitting on any poor horse! I don’t understand how anyone in their right mind could be supporting them! It’s definitely not acceptable and a welfare issue!


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## DirectorFury (25 July 2022)

Hard agree that RTG and BoaC are both welfare issues, but I hope you’re all ready for their “oh wahhh poor me” Instagram stories and the inevitable influx of flying monkeys who’ll join here just to post incomprehensible jibberish “defending” the pair of them .

RTG actually applied for the Horse and Country All Star Academy series, I’d have liked to hear Pammy’s reaction to that!


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## teapot (25 July 2022)

DirectorFury said:



			Hard agree that RTG and BoaC are both welfare issues, but I hope you’re all ready for their “oh wahhh poor me” Instagram stories and the inevitable influx of flying monkeys who’ll join here just to post incomprehensible jibberish “defending” the pair of them .

RTG actually applied for the Horse and Country All Star Academy series, I’d have liked to hear Pammy’s reaction to that!
		
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Oh to be a fly on the wall! It was the last All Star Academy that Pammy suggested taking feathers off that cracking cob because of the weight involved I think…


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## ycbm (26 July 2022)

ycbm said:



			I'd be interested to know if there is anyone on this thread whose horse is carrying 15% or under of its own fit weight arguing that the 15% limit is too low. It's my impression that it's mostly  people who are over 15% who believe that 20% is the right limit.
.
		
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Disclaimer. This is about weight,  not fat.

I'm coming back to this because I can't find a single person supporting a weight limit of 20% who is not themselves well over 15%, or close to someone who is.

Shouldn't that give the heavier people pause for thought? 
.


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## PapaverFollis (26 July 2022)

FWIW I think, though I'm no expert at judging other people's riding really and am very much prepared to be told I'm wrong, that BoaC would be a nice rider if she lost enough weight to be in full command of her body.  It is a shame. 

For me spending time and effort out of the saddle keeping oneself as light as one can and fit enough to ride well, through diet and other exercise, is *part* of the sport of horse riding.  I'm not saying I've always been successful at that part but it has always been an ideal!  But I also think relationship with the horse and horse care is part of the sport... as an ideal.  And then it is a bit like, that's not a sport anymore. It's a lifestyle... oh look a tangent..


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## PapaverFollis (26 July 2022)

ycbm said:



			Disclaimer. This is about weight,  not fat.

I'm coming back to this because I can't find a single person who is 15% or under supporting a weight limit of 20% who is not themselves well over 15%, or close to someone who is.

Shouldn't that give the heavier people pause for thought? 
.
		
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When I was at my heaviest I think I was just over 15% for MrT.  I felt a bit awkward about it but consoled myself with the 20% limit AND he seemed to be coping fine.  Until I lost the weight quickly and felt the difference in him and the way he could move under me as a direct comparison.  I rode him at about 12 stone and bit then the next time I sat on him was a few weeks later at just under 11 stone (we didn't do much while actually losing the weight... it was hard!) and he felt completely different.  So much more freedom in his movement.   I could have stayed at 12 stone something, full up against his 15%, and I wouldn't have known he was finding it hard and I could have told myself that up to 20% was fine.  It was only the comparison over the short time scale that made it really clear to me that less than 15% is actually very much different.

Absolutely noone would have looked at me and said I was too big or that the horse was struggling either.  I don't think.  To be fair I don't think he was "struggling" but there was a bit of a line that had been crossed in terms of how much extra strain was being put upon him.  I feel a bit bad about it but life is full of learning opportunities isn't it?

I'd rather eat nothing but salad ever again than put that much weight on a horse again.


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## Ambers Echo (26 July 2022)

Katie’s 13.2 Welsh C was probably about 350kg. 20% of that is 70. I was 62 plus tack so around that weight. I occasionally rode him and felt tall on him but not too heavy for him. He seemed strong as an ox so I think it does come down to knowing your pony sometimes.


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## scats (26 July 2022)

Dexter said:



			If you read the comments there are lots of people who think its brilliant.  She got a very young lightweight connie type shes riding and it makes me want to weep for him. Hes young, hes not long broken and shes riding him without a care in the world while her follower cheer her on.

Its a welfare issue and I dont know why someone hasnt stepped in. Why arent the professionals shes involved with saying anything? Why arent people reporting her to the RSPCA et al? Without knowing who she is in real life I cant, but there must be people who know her who could. I dont understand it.
		
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I did hear this particular rider was pulled up at a competition. I think it might have been at Aintree but I’m not certain.  She didn’t disclose details, just that she was very upset about the what happened.


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## ycbm (26 July 2022)

PapaverFollis said:



			When I was at my heaviest I think I was just over 15% for MrT.  I felt a bit awkward about it but consoled myself with the 20% limit AND he seemed to be coping fine.  Until I lost the weight quickly and felt the difference in him and the way he could move under me as a direct comparison.  I rode him at about 12 stone and bit then the next time I sat on him was a few weeks later at just under 11 stone (we didn't do much while actually losing the weight... it was hard!) and he felt completely different.  So much more freedom in his movement.   I could have stayed at 12 stone something, full up against his 15%, and I wouldn't have known he was finding it hard and I could have told myself that up to 20% was fine.  It was only the comparison over the short time scale that made it really clear to me that less than 15% is actually very much different.

Absolutely noone would have looked at me and said I was too big or that the horse was struggling either.  I don't think.  To be fair I don't think he was "struggling" but there was a bit of a line that had been crossed in terms of how much extra strain was being put upon him.  I feel a bit bad about it but life is full of learning opportunities isn't it?

I'd rather eat nothing but salad ever again than put that much weight on a horse again.
		
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I wouldn't mind betting that effect was measurable in stride length,  PF. Horses really do need us to have some proper research done into weight carrying.



Ambers Echo said:



			Katie’s 13.2 Welsh C was probably about 350kg. 20% of that is 70. I was 62 plus tack so around that weight. I occasionally rode him and felt tall on him but not too heavy for him. He seemed strong as an ox so I think it does come down to knowing your pony sometimes.
		
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Going by PF's experience,  you'd need to know what he felt like to Katie.
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## Ambers Echo (26 July 2022)

Horses move more freely with no rider. So any weight is harder for them than no weight and light will feel easier than moderate or heavier. I find the same with rucksacks! So the lighter the better from the horses point of view - but that doesn’t mean a heavier rider is too heavy. Unless you’re going to say any rider is too heavy. Dolly moved better for Katie than me but I was well under her limits as a full up chunky 148 .


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## Ambers Echo (26 July 2022)

I don’t disagree that 20% is too heavy for most horses though. I think ponies are stronger. I would not put anyone anywhere near 20% on Lottie or Amber - 120-130kg


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## ycbm (26 July 2022)

This is why we need research,  to find out if there are step points where the increased weight actually is an issue. ETA I do agree traditional ponies are stronger.  Sadly they seem to be being bred more and more like little horses.
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## PapaverFollis (26 July 2022)

I don't think the graph (of rider weight against "strain" let's say) would be linear though.  I think it is a curve that gets steeper.  So there's a line to be crossed where the curve starts going up much more steeply.

I can lift a 20kg bag of feed almost as easily as a 15kg bag.  But a 25kg bag feels MUCH harder than the 20kg.  There's a line.


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## Ambers Echo (26 July 2022)

Yes I agree - short stocky ponies, low centre of gravity, short backs, stumpy legs will be far better at tolerating weight. You can’t just scale up linearly. But in the absence of any restrictions at all, at the moment, 20% is a good starting point for competition and shows. Riders over 20% for their particular horse would be less likely to be sponsored if they were not going to able to participate in shows and competitions so it would make a difference there. And would be a statement on welfare that filters down to all riders. Banning trimming whiskers for comps is an example of the possible impact  - you can still trim them at home if you want but the comp ban raises awareness and changes perceptions. At least to a degree. So I’d welcome a weight rule at all events.


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## PapaverFollis (26 July 2022)

I do think 20% would be a good starting point for an official limit.  20% is generous in terms of how heavy the rider is "allowed" to be when people are struggling with their own weight management. 

But I do think there's a step change for the horse at around 15%.  I imagine the step change for a strong pony might be at about 17or18%.


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## Goldenstar (26 July 2022)

Dexter said:



			The research shows that the forces when a horse is walking with a heavy rider is significantly less than when trotting and cantering, so if you are pushing the maximum weight then steady walking for short periods is the least damaging thing you can do.
		
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The forces on their limbs are less .


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## Upthecreek (26 July 2022)

palo1 said:



			Yes, that is what I suspected but how can companies supporting these riders not see that there are equine welfare implications in promoting their brand in this way?   There are welfare implications for riders too and one of the good things about equestrian sport is the need for riders to remain fit and healthy in order to ride.   I hate commenting on anyone's size actually and have my own struggle with the battle to both enjoy food (which I really do lol) and remain an appropriate weight for the horses I have chosen to keep and ride.  I can't have it all lol.  For me this kind of social media content is not remotely helpful in any way  - to horses or riders.  Are there people who feel otherwise though?
		
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I think we are very much living in a time where people think they can have it all though. We have been sold the dream that anyone can do anything. People buy what they want not what they need.

Lots of posters on this forum are very quick to say that using things like spurs, whips and certain gadgets on horses is cruel. It’s interesting that many don’t appear to feel the same about horses carrying heavy riders, which is far more damaging to the horse in my opinion.


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## linka (26 July 2022)

PapaverFollis said:



			FWIW I think, though I'm no expert at judging other people's riding really and am very much prepared to be told I'm wrong, that BoaC would be a nice rider if she lost enough weight to be in full command of her body.  It is a shame.
		
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I was avoiding commenting directly, but for the sake of contextualising this as (hopefully) a phase before some major changes for one rider, her page shows that she is quite young, was riding the horses up until recently in breaks from university, and that a relative and/or others are presumably schooling the horses the rest of the time. So it is presumably a collective project that needs to be reassessed and hopefully will be.

Having said all that, I'm only following this discussion because of (as mentioned earlier) my previous concern about my own effect on the horses I was being given to ride. Part of my own progress.


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## Curly_Feather (26 July 2022)

As an aside, why on earth are you guys referring to horse weight in kilograms and people weight in stone? It is very very strange, and difficult for this South African to follow along. And for every post I have to use a conversion calculator to figure out the metric...


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## RachelFerd (26 July 2022)

scats said:



			I did hear this particular rider was pulled up at a competition. I think it might have been at Aintree but I’m not certain.  She didn’t disclose details, just that she was very upset about the what happened.
		
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And I note, was due to compete at an AF the weekend just been, but W/D - judge at C was same as the one at Aintree. Take from that what you will.


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## RachelFerd (26 July 2022)

And just replying to myself here to note that this is why I think the governing bodies probably need a clearer stance on this issue, given that said judge is perhaps gaining a reputation about their personal approach to overweight riders. Whereas judges should be protected from having to make this type of call where welfare of the horse must take precedence, but sensitivity of the topic with riders is clearly really serious too.


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## TPO (26 July 2022)

Curly_Feather said:



			As an aside, why on earth are you guys referring to horse weight in kilograms and people weight in stone? It is very very strange, and difficult for this South African to follow along. And for every post I have to use a conversion calculator to figure out the metric... 

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Because we're British and don't see the point in making things easy 🤪

Just wait until an American joins in and starts using pounds!


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## Upthecreek (26 July 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			And just replying to myself here to note that this is why I think the governing bodies probably need a clearer stance on this issue, given that said judge is perhaps gaining a reputation about their personal approach to overweight riders. Whereas judges should be protected from having to make this type of call where welfare of the horse must take precedence, but sensitivity of the topic with riders is clearly really serious too.
		
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It would definitely help if governing bodies had a clearer stance and if there were clear rules, but how would they be enforced at competitions? It would still be down to officials or judges to put their heads above the parapet and say “I think this rider is too heavy for their horse”. And then what would happen? I’m not directing these questions at you by the way, just musing as I really can’t come up with any workable solutions that protect the welfare of the horse and are sensitive to the rider.


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## Cortez (26 July 2022)

Upthecreek said:



			It would definitely help if governing bodies had a clearer stance and if there were clear rules, but how would they be enforced at competitions? It would still be down to officials or judges to put their heads above the parapet and say “I think this rider is too heavy for their horse”. And then what would happen? I’m not directing these questions at you by the way, just musing as I really can’t come up with any workable solutions that protect the welfare of the horse and are sensitive to the rider.
		
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Well, how about adopting a reasonable, scientifically calculated ratio - let's just say 15% rider weight, for example - and require people to provide the weight of both rider and horse to allow suitable pairing. I don't see why there have to be "sensitivities" involved: you are either too heavy to ride a certain horse or you're not.


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## Upthecreek (26 July 2022)

Cortez said:



			Well, how about adopting a reasonable, scientifically calculated ratio - let's just say 15% rider weight, for example - and require people to provide the weight of both rider and horse to allow suitable pairing. I don't see why there have to be "sensitivities" involved: you are either too heavy to ride a certain horse or you're not.
		
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Get them to provide the information as part of their entry? Would people be honest do you think? Would certainly make people think more about it.

I just meant sensitivities from the point of view of a judge or official having to call it out at a competition if they felt the rider was too heavy for for their horse, which would be awkward for them and embarrassing for the rider.


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## windand rain (26 July 2022)

What's to stop the entrant lying about their weight. Or the horse's weight. I still think that it should be done ringside or before entering a school to dressage or Showjumping. No doubt there will be issues about margins. 20% is generous 15 is good but somewhere between the two is ideal leeway having said that it would need many more stewards and officials so more cost or voluntary work


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## PurBee (26 July 2022)

Jockeys, boxers and other athletes are weighed prior to competition, so riders and horses after arriving take horse and gear to be weighed - its simple to enforce, without having to put judges in the sensitive position of declaring someone unsuitable by looks alone, as they could be very wrong.

Competitions etc exalt an average leisure rider into the sphere of the professional equine industry. If you want to compete at that level you take riding seriously anyway, and rules are already to be adhered to, and a weight rider/horse % ruling would be another rule, that ultimately forces the industry and participants to take horse/rider welfare seriously. It would exalt the industry in the eyes of jo public who just see slobbering gags and spurs and thinks all horse riding is cruel.

Enforcing horse/rider weight % in the leisure sector of private owned horses would be very difficult. If it was made law for all riders of equines to be 15%, say, i can see a very busy future of RSPCA inspectors with weighing equipment answering troves of calls.

The competing wing of the equine industry sets the ruling - and can enforce it with ‘weigh-ins’ - the leisure industry is ‘advised’ a preferred %.

All of this can only be off the back of rigorous scientific studies proving that there is a definite % of weight carrying that a horse can comfortably carry, to know % thresholds.
There’s already many studies, and these should be re-done, updated with wider parameters of taking readings from the horses. A vast indepth study of all types and breeds is well worth doing to get this serious issue addressed. Then use the results as a ’gold standard’ enforceable within the industry, starting within the professional competing circles.


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## ester (26 July 2022)

You’ll likely end up with fatter horses though.

Im also unaware of any studies that most scientists would consider even a little bit rigorous


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## Wonderling (26 July 2022)

PurBee said:



			Jockeys, boxers and other athletes are weighed prior to competition, so riders and horses after arriving take horse and gear to be weighed - its simple to enforce, without having to put judges in the sensitive position of declaring someone unsuitable by looks alone, as they could be very wrong.

Competitions etc exalt an average leisure rider into the sphere of the professional equine industry. If you want to compete at that level you take riding seriously anyway, and rules are already to be adhered to, and a weight rider/horse % ruling would be another rule, that ultimately forces the industry and participants to take horse/rider welfare seriously. It would exalt the industry in the eyes of jo public who just see slobbering gags and spurs and thinks all horse riding is cruel.

Enforcing horse/rider weight % in the leisure sector of private owned horses would be very difficult. If it was made law for all riders of equines to be 15%, say, i can see a very busy future of RSPCA inspectors with weighing equipment answering troves of calls.

The competing wing of the equine industry sets the ruling - and can enforce it with ‘weigh-ins’ - the leisure industry is ‘advised’ a preferred %.

All of this can only be off the back of rigorous scientific studies proving that there is a definite % of weight carrying that a horse can comfortably carry, to know % thresholds.
There’s already many studies, and these should be re-done, updated with wider parameters of taking readings from the horses. A vast indepth study of all types and breeds is well worth doing to get this serious issue addressed. Then use the results as a ’gold standard’ enforceable within the industry, starting within the professional competing circles.
		
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Its a shame the study never came through as it should have from Sue Dyson, i imagine she was trying (maybe too hard) to get some kind of guideline in place.

I hope it does end up happening somehow, 30 years ago this definitely was not an issue I ever saw, nowadays its common place, who knows how this will end up with no line drawn for fear of too many 'factors'.


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## Hallo2012 (26 July 2022)

PurBee said:



			Jockeys, boxers and other athletes are weighed prior to competition, so riders and horses after arriving take horse and gear to be weighed - its simple to enforce, without having to put judges in the sensitive position of declaring someone unsuitable by looks alone, as they could be very wrong.

Competitions etc exalt an average leisure rider into the sphere of the professional equine industry. If you want to compete at that level you take riding seriously anyway, and rules are already to be adhered to, and a weight rider/horse % ruling would be another rule, that ultimately forces the industry and participants to take horse/rider welfare seriously. It would exalt the industry in the eyes of jo public who just see slobbering gags and spurs and thinks all horse riding is cruel.

Enforcing horse/rider weight % in the leisure sector of private owned horses would be very difficult. If it was made law for all riders of equines to be 15%, say, i can see a very busy future of RSPCA inspectors with weighing equipment answering troves of calls.

The competing wing of the equine industry sets the ruling - and can enforce it with ‘weigh-ins’ - the leisure industry is ‘advised’ a preferred %.

All of this can only be off the back of rigorous scientific studies proving that there is a definite % of weight carrying that a horse can comfortably carry, to know % thresholds.
There’s already many studies, and these should be re-done, updated with wider parameters of taking readings from the horses. A vast indepth study of all types and breeds is well worth doing to get this serious issue addressed. Then use the results as a ’gold standard’ enforceable within the industry, starting within the professional competing circles.
		
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as much as i agree with the idea i just don't think its viable for the average competition centre to have horse and rider scales, and imagine all the horses that wont stand on the scales (mine inc probably) and the stress of the queue (in bad weather), with all the people that cant keep their horses away from other horses, or the kickers, etc etc........i cant see it happening.

the elite team riders have regular sessions with physio and nutritionist so weight is probably recorded at those sessions?


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## PapaverFollis (26 July 2022)

You could do random spot checks based on a random number generator or similar rather than "that person looks big".  So you check 10% of competitors.   (I suppose judges and officials could contrive to have anyone they have particular concerns about "randomly" selected.) 

A generous limit does not need to be based on particularly rigorous science in my view.  You'd probably need more supporting data for enforcing 15% but 20% would require less justification?

The rules could also be designed to enforce horses being a healthy weight in some way... condition scoring the horse at the same time? Rather than allowing people to create a higher weight limit for themselves by feeding the horse cattle cake... 🙃


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## Smitty (26 July 2022)

ester said:



			You’ll likely end up with fatter horses though.

Im also unaware of any studies that most scientists would consider even a little bit rigorous
		
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How about having a max weight for each height, 12.2 6st, 13.2 7st etc 

This is just an example !!

I think if someone is too heavy to ride their particular horse, they should be told, however hurt their sensibilities may be.  If they have any feelings for the horse at all, they will accept the judgement.  Poor horse has no say at all ...


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## RachelFerd (26 July 2022)

PurBee said:



			Jockeys, boxers and other athletes are weighed prior to competition, so riders and horses after arriving take horse and gear to be weighed - its simple to enforce, without having to put judges in the sensitive position of declaring someone unsuitable by looks alone, as they could be very wrong.

Competitions etc exalt an average leisure rider into the sphere of the professional equine industry. If you want to compete at that level you take riding seriously anyway, and rules are already to be adhered to, and a weight rider/horse % ruling would be another rule, that ultimately forces the industry and participants to take horse/rider welfare seriously. It would exalt the industry in the eyes of jo public who just see slobbering gags and spurs and thinks all horse riding is cruel.

Enforcing horse/rider weight % in the leisure sector of private owned horses would be very difficult. If it was made law for all riders of equines to be 15%, say, i can see a very busy future of RSPCA inspectors with weighing equipment answering troves of calls.

The competing wing of the equine industry sets the ruling - and can enforce it with ‘weigh-ins’ - the leisure industry is ‘advised’ a preferred %.

All of this can only be off the back of rigorous scientific studies proving that there is a definite % of weight carrying that a horse can comfortably carry, to know % thresholds.
There’s already many studies, and these should be re-done, updated with wider parameters of taking readings from the horses. A vast indepth study of all types and breeds is well worth doing to get this serious issue addressed. Then use the results as a ’gold standard’ enforceable within the industry, starting within the professional competing circles.
		
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I'd prefer a 'license to compete' system, where at the start of each season you've essentially had sign off from a vet that horses are fit and healthy to compete and the horse/rider partnership is appropriate. Professional riders could have dispensation via qualifications, but each horse should/could still have veterinary agreement to compete. I think it could be a useful way to tick a lot of social license and basic welfare boxes in one go. No need to mess around at every single event.

And yes, this would put off the very casual competitor - but we all have vaccination visits from the vet - so why not extend that into a 'fit to compete' note?


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## PurBee (26 July 2022)

ester said:



			You’ll likely end up with fatter horses though.

Im also unaware of any studies that most scientists would consider even a little bit rigorous
		
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Yep, where’s theres human will, theyll find a way!

The rigorous studies need to be done, to make this enforceable - current studies done, the study pool of horses is far too small to set a legal limit based on that data already collated. All they currently do is offer us a rough guide, based on their small study groups.


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## PurBee (26 July 2022)

Hallo2012 said:



			as much as i agree with the idea i just don't think its viable for the average competition centre to have horse and rider scales, and imagine all the horses that wont stand on the scales (mine inc probably) and the stress of the queue (in bad weather), with all the people that cant keep their horses away from other horses, or the kickers, etc etc........i cant see it happening.

the elite team riders have regular sessions with physio and nutritionist so weight is probably recorded at those sessions?
		
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Yeah, the difficult practicalities would be multifold, and would involve designing a stream-lined system like weighing horses on a pad thats flush with the ground outside, rather than in a scary building. Having 1 horse/rider at a time walk along and stand for 10 seconds to record weight. For this to be a booked weighing rather than a huge queue etc.

If all is willing to train horses to do the most remarkable things, and organisers are willing to put in X time and money to host and perpetuate professional equine sports - is it really too unrealistic to factor-in time/money for weigh-ins? 
Is everyone too busy and their horses so untrained that they cant stand for 10 seconds on a pad and be weighed?


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## PurBee (26 July 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			I'd prefer a 'license to compete' system, where at the start of each season you've essentially had sign off from a vet that horses are fit and healthy to compete and the horse/rider partnership is appropriate. Professional riders could have dispensation via qualifications, but each horse should/could still have veterinary agreement to compete. I think it could be a useful way to tick a lot of social license and basic welfare boxes in one go. No need to mess around at every single event.

And yes, this would put off the very casual competitor - but we all have vaccination visits from the vet - so why not extend that into a 'fit to compete' note?
		
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Thats a brilliant idea - would totally negate having to do all the weighing faff at each show.


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## Kat (26 July 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			I'd prefer a 'license to compete' system, where at the start of each season you've essentially had sign off from a vet that horses are fit and healthy to compete and the horse/rider partnership is appropriate. Professional riders could have dispensation via qualifications, but each horse should/could still have veterinary agreement to compete. I think it could be a useful way to tick a lot of social license and basic welfare boxes in one go. No need to mess around at every single event.

And yes, this would put off the very casual competitor - but we all have vaccination visits from the vet - so why not extend that into a 'fit to compete' note?
		
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A person can put a lot of weight on in a year.


Also do we trust vets to give a safe view on appropriate combinations? There's a vet who I have seen out competing who is far to heavy for their horse. While their Facebook profile picture showed them looking significantly too big for their horse they also had an article shared on their practice website about rider weight 🤷‍♀️ 

Are these vets going to weigh riders and tack or trust reported weights or just judge it all on looks?


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## Morgan123 (26 July 2022)

Great discussion. The way it works at the moment with the few shows that do this is: there is an attending vet with a horse weigh scales and a person weigh scales. If someone is too big (for example, an adult riding in a child's pony) they are asked to dismount, or  if they prefer they can be weighed, to ensure they are within a 20% limit. The vet would take into account the condition of the horse - e.g if the horse is v overweight then that is accounted for.

Just to clarify - this isn't about overweight people, it's about anyone who is too big for the horse they're riding - this could include a perfectly healthy weight teenager riding a shetland, for example (as is quite common), or an average adult on a sec B pony. It's just about being "suitably mounted" within that 20% rule, which is the best thing we have so far.

Obviously, the current system isn't ideal because people feel singled out and it's VERY awkward for everyone involved, and it also means a vet being present (though to be fair, plenty of sports manage this very well within costs - e.g. endurance, every horse has at least two vet checks, and that's the cheapest sport around if you go by entry fee costs). Amazingly the current system doesn't put people off from infringing on the 20% rule at all, so it's not a deterrant. A lot of people are saying that peoples' vets and instructors should be telling them, but those people all are going to feel just as awkward mentioning it as any of us would! It's certainly not an easy topic to broach, nobody wants to upset anyone else and I'm sure we all feel like we're doing right for our own horses because X, Y, Z....

I really like idea of the person who said about random spot checks, that's a great idea.


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## ester (26 July 2022)

I've always found it interesting that it's so prevalent in showing- obviously partly because the smaller native ponies do seem to go better/fancier with a small pro on top. But it is also the one discipline where it might be easier to include suitability of combo/overall impression to be included as part of the criteria.


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## palo1 (26 July 2022)

Morgan123 said:



			Great discussion. The way it works at the moment with the few shows that do this is: there is an attending vet with a horse weigh scales and a person weigh scales. If someone is too big (for example, an adult riding in a child's pony) they are asked to dismount, or  if they prefer they can be weighed, to ensure they are within a 20% limit. The vet would take into account the condition of the horse - e.g if the horse is v overweight then that is accounted for.

Just to clarify - this isn't about overweight people, it's about anyone who is too big for the horse they're riding - this could include a perfectly healthy weight teenage child riding a shetland, for example. It's just about being "suitably mounted" within that 20% rule, which is the best thing we have so far.

Obviously, the current system isn't ideal because people feel singled out and it's VERY awkward for everyone involved, and it also means a vet being present (though to be fair, plenty of sports manage this very well within costs - e.g. endurance, every horse has at least two vet checks, and that's the cheapest sport around if you go by entry fee costs). Amazingly the current rule doesn't put people off from infringing on the 20% rule at all, so it's not a deterrant. A lot of people are saying that peoples' vets and instructors should be telling them, but those people all are going to feel just as awkward mentioning it as any of us would! It's certainly not an easy topic to broach, nobody wants to upset anyone else and I'm sure we all feel like we're doing right for our own horses because X, Y, Z....

I really like idea of the person who said about random spot checks, that's a great idea.
		
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It would certainly be easy to ensure rider-horse compatibility in terms of weight at endurance events and I like the idea of a licence to complete which is signed off annually.  There would of course be issues with that - riders can gain weight etc but if there were concerns the competing body could ask for evidence of weight within the limits specified within say 30 days.   I can see an issue for some competition bodies though as people for whom it was an issue would perhaps not apply for their licence to compete so would reduce funding for those bodies and it would make any competing even more expensive so not so inclusive for riders either.  But as a measure for equine welfare I think it would at least open the discussion and bring into the public and the equestrian view that weight is a welfare issue which is at least starting to be addressed.  It may be preaching to the choir somewhat but it would be a starting point.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (26 July 2022)

Smitty said:



			How about having a max weight for each height, 12.2 6st, 13.2 7st etc

This is just an example !!
.
		
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Following on, if 14 hh was then 8 stone (50kg), I'd be stuffed then on 14hh 🤣 lean fit pedigree native at 460kg and me currently at 13.2% with tack!


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## Amymay (26 July 2022)

Cheeky Chestnut said:



			So are we accusing world class male riders in all disciplines of animal abuse now then? Genuine question??

I never said don’t address it, however more thought needs to go into it other than setting weights etc. more factors come into it than just weight
		
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Interstingly, these world class male riders make every effort to keep their weights to a minimum for the very reasons being discussed here. Horse welfare and the ability of that horse to perform at its optimum level.

And yes, unfortunately for those who are easily offended, it is quite easy to judge from someone’s appearance whether they’re too heavy to be on a particular horse/pony.  That’s not fat shaming, just common sense.


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## Amymay (26 July 2022)

marmalade76 said:



			Look up Blog of a cob on Instagram ( I hadn't seen it before it was mentioned on this thread and I was horrified), this is what people are referring to when they talk about hanging over the saddle! I'm no expert but this one looks nearer 20st than 10.
		
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Thump, thump, thump.


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## Upthecreek (26 July 2022)

I think providing horse and rider weight to enter and having spot checks of a certain percentage of competitors would be a good starting point. Now what about riders and horses who don’t compete?


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## palo1 (26 July 2022)

Upthecreek said:



			I think providing horse and rider weight to enter and having spot checks of a certain percentage of competitors would be a good starting point. Now what about riders and horses who don’t compete?
		
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I think having a standard at competitive events would help the message to filter down tbh and it may make it easier for vets, saddle fitters etc to raise the issue of rider weight in a more normalised kind of discussion.  Potentially, non competitive combinations may not be doing the same level of work but that isn't always the case.  I suspect that once competing bodies used any form of official calculation, Riding Clubs etc would follow suit and it would become just more part of the everyday conversation about equine welfare and riding which most people really do care about.  It is a difficult issue for some people but not talking about it or addressing it anywhere won't help I don' t think.  I do think that it being a formal part of competing would be a good start.


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## ecb89 (26 July 2022)

If you feel strongly about overweight riders who are influencers please let their sponsors and companies they work with know.


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## eahotson (26 July 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			Our very last photo of my darling Bailey minutes before she was pts in June 2021.  I stopped riding her 6 months before. She was 710KG and a big boned 17.1hh M/W and easily took my weight. Agree if I'd been schooling or jumping I would have been to heavy. We stopped jumping Oct 2016 and schooling June 2018, i then started putting on weight so we just hacked, our last hacks were 20 mins once or twice a week.  I have a video of her on one of these hacks striding out, ears pricked forward. She never struggled carrying me. Or if she did it never showed and hand on heart I've never had anyone ever say i was too heavy for her and trust me there were enough people that would have if they felt i was.

I realise I am probably opening myself open to criticism by showing my photo but I want to share for those that have been upset by this thread.
View attachment 96398

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lovely photo.I hope you have many happy memories.


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## marmalade76 (26 July 2022)

Smitty said:



			How about having a max weight for each height, 12.2 6st, 13.2 7st etc

This is just an example !!
.
		
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That wouldn't wouldn't work at all, there's plenty of cobs & natives of 13.2 that can comfortably carry a good bit more than 7st and plenty of taller TBs that couldn't carry more than a chunky 14.2 could.


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## TPO (26 July 2022)

Amymay said:



			Thump, thump, thump.
		
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I hadn't seen her before. That page and Ray the goth make me so sad for the horses 😥 

The irony of RTG's instructor shouting bounce through the bounce as she banged about on the poor fat horse's back. 

How have these people got 24k followers each??? No wonder there's such a skewed perception of what's acceptable


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## Peglo (26 July 2022)

I was at camp at the weekend and they had the weigh bridge for the horses . I weighed Tali and then asked if I could come back with my hat and tack so I could find out how much she was carrying. They said absolutely but was shocked I’d want to. I’m delighted I’m at 14.6% so just under the 15% mark but no one else wanted to find out their percentage. Not even the thin people. Maybe me doing it might make people have a think about it, you never know. Being close to the 15% mark made me get in the gym yesterday though when I was shattered and would’ve happily sat on the sofa.


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## PurBee (26 July 2022)

palo1 said:



			I think having a standard at competitive events would help the message to filter down tbh and it may make it easier for vets, saddle fitters etc to raise the issue of rider weight in a more normalised kind of discussion.  Potentially, non competitive combinations may not be doing the same level of work but that isn't always the case.  I suspect that once competing bodies used any form of official calculation, Riding Clubs etc would follow suit and it would become just more part of the everyday conversation about equine welfare and riding which most people really do care about.  It is a difficult issue for some people but not talking about it or addressing it anywhere won't help I don' t think.  I do think that it being a formal part of competing would be a good start. 

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There was s thread on here a few months back by a trainer who was asking how to discuss rider weight with the owner of the horse she was training, they felt it warranted it for the horses welfare. She wasn’t talking just a few kg’s overweight. She felt inclined to just cancel working with her client, rather than discuss it, for fear of being taken the wrong way.

So i think youre right, if it becomes backed by up to date scientific knowledge, all riders of all weights know what horse weight they can ride, and know our own personal limits. If enforced in comps, the knowledge would become more mainstream, and the professionals in the leisure industry would be in a more comfortable position, being supported by current knowledge and professional equine regulations, to broach the subject with leisure horse clients.


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## muddybay (26 July 2022)

A lot of the overweight riders on Instagram also have massively overweight horses as well which is even worse for the poor horses!


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## Dave's Mam (26 July 2022)

I'm not quite sure how to put this, but where is the difference between perception of weight / so called "Fat Shaming" / getting offended separated from WELFARE?
Everyone jumps up & down about tight nosebands & rubbish bitting etc, but where do you draw the line between an attack on you & the welfare of the horse that you're sitting on?

Disclaimer the "You" means everyone.  & I calculated mine & I'm 13%.


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## shortstuff99 (26 July 2022)

I've calculated mine and I'm 10% on the big potato and my big cob and 12.5% on the Baby Spanish. That is at their fit weight, which they all are currently.


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## fetlock (26 July 2022)

Morgan123 said:



			Great discussion. The way it works at the moment with the few shows that do this is: there is an attending vet with a horse weigh scales and a person weigh scales. If someone is too big (for example, an adult riding in a child's pony) they are asked to dismount, or  if they prefer they can be weighed, to ensure they are within a 20% limit. The vet would take into account the condition of the horse - e.g if the horse is v overweight then that is accounted for.

Just to clarify - this isn't about overweight people, it's about anyone who is too big for the horse they're riding - this could include a perfectly healthy weight teenager riding a shetland, for example (as is quite common), or an average adult on a sec B pony. It's just about being "suitably mounted" within that 20% rule, which is the best thing we have so far.

Obviously, the current system isn't ideal because people feel singled out and it's VERY awkward for everyone involved, and it also means a vet being present (though to be fair, plenty of sports manage this very well within costs - e.g. endurance, every horse has at least two vet checks, and that's the cheapest sport around if you go by entry fee costs). Amazingly the current system doesn't put people off from infringing on the 20% rule at all, so it's not a deterrant. A lot of people are saying that peoples' vets and instructors should be telling them, but those people all are going to feel just as awkward mentioning it as any of us would! It's certainly not an easy topic to broach, nobody wants to upset anyone else and I'm sure we all feel like we're doing right for our own horses because X, Y, Z....

I really like idea of the person who said about random spot checks, that's a great idea.
		
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I can't offer an alternative solution off the top of my head tonight but would absolutely be dead set against children or teens having to be weighed on a showground. I'm not keen tbh on _anyone_ being weighed on a show field but where youngsters are concerned in particular, no way.


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## Dave's Mam (26 July 2022)

Child or adult should not be too heavy for the pony.  That is it.  Full stop.


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## Winters100 (27 July 2022)

fetlock said:



			I can't offer an alternative solution off the top of my head tonight but would absolutely be dead set against children or teens having to be weighed on a showground. I'm not keen tbh on _anyone_ being weighed on a show field but where youngsters are concerned in particular, no way.
		
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I get that it is not very nice, but I do not think that it would even be necessary to announce the weight to the competitor if they did not want to know, just to tell them whether they were inside the limit or not. It seems to me that we are in danger of ignoring physical pain to an animal for fear of hurting the feelings of people who choose to ride.  For me this is not right.  If you are super sensitive about the issue you can choose not compete, or better to choose a horse which is able to comfortably carry you, the horse has no choice.  Parents of children and teens should be responsible in this regard, and should prepare their children for the fact that they may be weighed.  If this is not acceptable they do not have to attend.  We were weighed and measured at the start and end of every term at school, I do not really see the difference.  For children's classes I would assume that it would be quite easy as there are already limits on age of child and size of pony - why not just state a weight limit and have each one weighed with tack when they register?  Those who were sensitive could just check their weight at home and not attend if they were over.

Saying that someone is too heavy for a horse is absolutely not a comment upon them as a person, or upon their % of body fat. Maybe if those who are too heavy for their mounts were not able to compete more would choose suitable horses.  I looked at the above mentioned 'Blog on a Cob' and I am shocked that this is seen by so many as acceptable. Perhaps it is time to inform brands which sponsor riders who are obviously too heavy for their mounts of the negative press which this gives them.  This is simply cruelty, and I do not really see a difference between causing pain by making a horse carry someone who is too heavy (heavy, not fat), or causing pain by using a whip.


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## palo1 (27 July 2022)

Winters100 said:



			I get that it is not very nice, but I do not think that it would even be necessary to announce the weight to the competitor if they did not want to know, just to tell them whether they were inside the limit or not. It seems to me that we are in danger of ignoring physical pain to an animal for fear of hurting the feelings of people who choose to ride.  For me this is not right.  If you are super sensitive about the issue you can choose not compete, or better to choose a horse which is able to comfortably carry you, the horse has no choice.  Parents of children and teens should be responsible in this regard, and should prepare their children for the fact that they may be weighed.  If this is not acceptable they do not have to attend.  We were weighed and measured at the start and end of every term at school, I do not really see the difference.  For children's classes I would assume that it would be quite easy as there are already limits on age of child and size of pony - why not just state a weight limit and have each one weighed with tack when they register?  Those who were sensitive could just check their weight at home and not attend if they were over.

Saying that someone is too heavy for a horse is absolutely not a comment upon them as a person, or upon their % of body fat. Maybe if those who are too heavy for their mounts were not able to compete more would choose suitable horses.  I looked at the above mentioned 'Blog on a Cob' and I am shocked that this is seen by so many as acceptable. Perhaps it is time to inform brands which sponsor riders who are obviously too heavy for their mounts of the negative press which this gives them.  This is simply cruelty, and I do not really see a difference between causing pain by making a horse carry someone who is too heavy (heavy, not fat), or causing pain by using a whip.
		
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I think it is difficult to be 'definitive' just by looking at someone tbh though it seems likely that some of the riders discussed here; that post publicly on SM and identify themselves as influencers, are too heavy for their horses.   If you went out to buy, for eg, a kayak or something else where the weight limits become a safety critical issue I wonder how that is dealt with by those that are not in the safe limit; perhaps that doesn't really happen.  But for horses, the weight issue is a safety one and we do need to get that message out there.  I wondered about contacting brands associatated with riders that appear overweight for their horses but without definitive data it just looks like fat shaming which I would not be prepared to do.  At the same time, it is hugely discomforting to see riders that really seem far too big for their horses, gaining a following publicly.  I think it is because ideas about and groups promoting body positivity perhaps haven't really engaged with equine welfare?  Perhaps weight is not an 'allowed' discussion in body positivity groups - I don't know!!


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## ester (27 July 2022)

There are limits for games 
'
A rider weighing over 54kg may not ride a pony 128cm or under.
▶
A rider weighing over 60kg may not ride a pony 133cm or under.
▶
A rider weighing over 66kg may not ride a pony 138cm or under.


Though weighing kids can be problematic, more so than just 'hurt feelings'.


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## palo1 (27 July 2022)

ester said:



			There are limits for games
'
A rider weighing over 54kg may not ride a pony 128cm or under.
▶
A rider weighing over 60kg may not ride a pony 133cm or under.
▶
A rider weighing over 66kg may not ride a pony 138cm or under.


Though weighing kids can be problematic, more so than just 'hurt feelings'.
		
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Yes, weighing young people is hugely problematic for lots of reasons - I really don't know how that could be done safely (other than some form of weighing and relating that directly to the horse/pony in question without figures being shared with the rider or publicly)  and fairly but with adults it could be.


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## windand rain (27 July 2022)

The issue with young people being told they are too big for ponies is some will starve themselves to stop growing. Having a young friend that did that when she was younger as she adores ponies. The other issue is native ponies might only be 13hh but are built to carry more so a 13hh highland can carry much more than a 13hh show pony and everything in between so height of pony doesnt relate to the ponies weight anymore than the height of a child relates to the childs weight. Outgrowing ponies much loved ponies is always painful for children.


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## Ambers Echo (27 July 2022)

If you want to ride the zip wire in Snowdonia they weigh you. They need to know how to tension the harness. There is no fuss made about it. Just a queue for weighing, a weight written in big black marker pen on your hand so that the people a the top strapping you in can clearly see it. As can everyone else of course! It's a safety critical issue so it just happens very matter of factly. Some people may self exclude if they don't want to be weighed. Others may find it uncomfortable but deal with it so they can ride on the zipline. 

I think a 20% rule in competition can be treated the same way - it's a welfare rule, end of. A licence to compete is a good idea. Or spot checks. And the message would then filter down. Governing bodies need to set stadards and that would slowly change perceptions about what is and is not ok. Plus who would sponsor a rider who is not eligible to complete on welfare grounds?


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## sbloom (27 July 2022)

ycbm said:



			This is why we need research,  to find out if there are step points where the increased weight actually is an issue. ETA I do agree traditional ponies are stronger.  Sadly they seem to be being bred more and more like little horses.
.
		
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Or not, Fells for example being bred small and round, and kept overweight more than ever before, in part I swear, because of the "cute hairy" thing.

I think weighing children is very problematic, I'm not sure how we solve this but as a professional I am crying out for some official guidance to help me navigate this.  I have fitted for a LOT of borderline people, if I knew everyone was dealing with the same guidelines I could walk away knowing they were less likely to be fitted for a saddle by a cowboy.


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## Cortez (27 July 2022)

It's not about  "safety ", it's about cruelty.  Sorry, but eff "feelings" : if you are damaging, injuring or hurting horses you should plainly and obviously not be riding.


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## Dexter (27 July 2022)

Cortez said:



			It's not about  "safety ", it's about cruelty.  Sorry, but eff "feelings" : if you are damaging, injuring or hurting horses you should plainly and obviously not be riding.
		
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Which is fine for adults, but not for children. Weighing children in public is as damaging to some as carrying extra weight is to horses. Potentially more so in vulnerable children.


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## Cortez (27 July 2022)

Dexter said:



			Which is fine for adults, but not for children. Weighing children in public is as damaging to some as carrying extra weight is to horses. Potentially more so in vulnerable children.
		
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So, what? Let the pony suffer? Allow the kid to think it's OK to hurt an animal? Sorry, but that's never going to be right, ever.


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## windand rain (27 July 2022)

Cortez said:



			So what? Let the pony suffer? Allow the kid to think it's OK to hurt an animal? Sorry, but that's never going to be right, ever.
		
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No it is never acceptable and some children are obese and overweight their ponies largely speaking are also obese or overweight. It is up to stewards to speak to parents and judges to put them down the line until people realise fat is not acceptable in any form. Pony club should also have a word with guardians as should riding schools etc. Home owned ponies then its up to yard managers to suck it up and tell not advise guardians at that point the only kids missed will be those who hack out and keep ponies at home. Until social media and competition are on board the ponies will continue to suffer Same with professionally produced show horses without a condition score of 3 or less on a 5 scale they should go straight to the bottom of the line no matter how lovely a ride or how cleanly they jump in workers this is the only way they will learn


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## Roxylola (27 July 2022)

I've followed this but not commented up to now. I agree that public weighing feels wrong especially for the young. However, nobody genuinely doesn't know they're overweight - probably even more so in the young.
Also, if that's the rule to compete then you know its coming, parents can step up and weigh their kids in advance and see that they simply will or will not be able to compete and take appropriate action. It's a bit different if it's just publicly sprung on the day but if it's part of the process it's expected.


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## xTrooperx (27 July 2022)

Hard one as we are all different shapes and sizes I am larger in size than most people I know who ride, yet I am lighter in weight. one friend is 14st yet beautiful shapely figure boobs and hips flat stomach so you would automatically assume they would be quite light. And certainly would not question weight after just seeing.


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## Hallo2012 (27 July 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			I'd prefer a 'license to compete' system, where at the start of each season you've essentially had sign off from a vet that horses are fit and healthy to compete and the horse/rider partnership is appropriate. Professional riders could have dispensation via qualifications, but each horse should/could still have veterinary agreement to compete. I think it could be a useful way to tick a lot of social license and basic welfare boxes in one go. No need to mess around at every single event.

And yes, this would put off the very casual competitor - but we all have vaccination visits from the vet - so why not extend that into a 'fit to compete' note?
		
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much better plan.

id be more than happy with that.

and yes people can gain weight, as can horses BUT i doubt anyone is going to purposely fluctuate down to 15/16% for Jan only to expand back up to 20%+ over each year, EVERY year so it would still work IMO


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## Cortez (27 July 2022)

xTrooperx said:



			Hard one as we are all different shapes and sizes I am larger in size than most people I know who ride, yet I am lighter in weight. one friend is 14st yet beautiful shapely figure boobs and hips flat stomach so you would automatically assume they would be quite light. And certainly would not question weight after just seeing
		
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Weighing machines were invented precisely to solve this problem.


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## YorksG (27 July 2022)

The stewards at most shows are volunteers, getting people to steward currently is tough going. If stewards are then going to be asked to challenge people regarding their weight ratio to their horses weight, there will be even fewer people willing to give up their time.


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## Julia0803 (27 July 2022)

I think it’s a really interesting discussion, but agree with some other posters: stating what is fair for a horse to carry is not making negative judgments about a person who is above that weight in and of themselves. Just that in relation to that particular horse they are too heavy.

(I suppose I also have skin in this game as I’ve recently made a concerted effort to loose weight for my horse. I have an under active thyroid and found that my weight had really crept up without any changes to diet- a pretty sad state of affairs tbh! But the whys are irrelevant in terms of how it impacts my cob!) 

I do however remember being quite surprised when looking at a local saddlers website. On their notes about fitting saddles they stated:

‘We apply the generally accepted rule of 10% body mass ratio to competition, and 15% for regular riding’ 

I had never previously heard 10% touted as ‘generally accepted’. Tho I suppose you could also question ‘competition’- are we talking about local unaffiliated prelim, or 3* eventing?!

I don’t know whether 10% is a reasonable figure, but it would undoubtedly limit the pool of horses a regular adult with a normal BMI could carry, as it would suggest that an average 450-500kg small horse/large native could only carry 7-7.5stone which i think is lighter than the majority of adults. I’m not making judgements that, if it’s not practical we should ignore it, more that if that was what was generally agreed most people would have to ‘size up’ as it were and there would be a large drop in demand for most averagely sized horses).


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## Winters100 (27 July 2022)

Dexter said:



			Which is fine for adults, but not for children. Weighing children in public is as damaging to some as carrying extra weight is to horses. Potentially more so in vulnerable children.
		
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But no one is suggesting weighing them in the middle of the showground and shouting out the results.  And this is a voluntary activity, so if your child is too heavy for the pony you have the option to address this in advance.  Amber's Echo gave a good example above, people who do not want to be weighed have the option not to compete.  Let's put this in perspective, would you let someone who was too heavy for your horse ride them anyway just because a refusal might hurt their feelings? I certainly would not.


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## Goldie's mum (27 July 2022)

Tell a child from the beginning that "this is the pony you are riding just now but not for ever". You wouldn't expect a child to stay in the same school class for years in case they were damaged by moving up. No one is "too heavy" or "too fat", that's a matter between them & their doctor but there's surely a tactful way of telling a child they need to be promoted to a bigger pony now?


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## Goldie's mum (27 July 2022)

YorksG said:



			The stewards at most shows are volunteers, getting people to steward currently is tough going. If stewards are then going to be asked to challenge people regarding their weight ratio to their horses weight, there will be even fewer people willing to give up their time.
		
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Just thinking aloud here but shows delegate first aid to St. John's Ambulance all the time. Would a welfare charity do the weigh-in for a donation?


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## Goldie's mum (27 July 2022)

Me again, one more then I'm done! 

No one has mentioned the age of the horse. You can show ridden from 4yrs but a horses spine stops developing at 6.....


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## CanteringCarrot (27 July 2022)

Animal welfare will always trump feelings, in my book. If I'm too heavy for my horse this doesn't necessarily mean that I'm fat, per say, but it means that I either need to lose weight or find a different mount. Which I have no problem with.

I think there is a way to tactfully weigh competitors and children. It's also a valuable lesson for a child to learn that their health and their animals health is important, and that animal welfare comes first. It's ok for a kid to learn and know when the get too big for their pony. 

This (while not the best way) might even spur some parents into minding their kids weight, health, and nutrition a bit more...just as parents of many other athletes in other sports do.

Competing horses isn't a right, and this isn't about how you look. It's about the animal. I'm sure if this were to be put in place, there would be all sorts of uproar over equestrian sports being "skinny people sports" and "shallow" but that's not the point. Again, weight is measured in many other sports that don't even involve an animal, involving an animal gives even more reason IMO.

I'm basically the human equivalent of a Shetland pony, but I'll figure myself out if I want to be light enough for a certain horse, and/or I'll have one appropriate for my weight.


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## palo1 (27 July 2022)

Thei idea of an annual licence to compete could be helpful too in that if you know your annual licence is up for review you would have time to address weight or horse issues in advance which would totally remove tricky showground showdowns and the onus on stewards to call out concerning combinations.   At just under 15% of my lightest horse's capacity I would hardly likely want to pile on the pounds at any point in the licenced year; it would be a great motivator in fact to maintain a steady healthy weight.  I already weigh every day so for someone like me who has to work a bit to stay on the right side of the equation it could be really supportive.  I would NOT want to be weighed in at a showground though it happens in endurance and racing so deffo could be done...


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## ester (27 July 2022)

Not sure why we appear to be stuck on feelings, it’s not feelings that are the problem.


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## palo1 (27 July 2022)

ester said:



			Not sure why we appear to be stuck on feelings, it’s not feelings that are the problem.
		
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Quite - it isn't about feelings or even whether people are overweight per se; it is about horses weight carrying abilities and their welfare.  That is why I think it could be really do-able.  For someone like me it would be genuinely clear and helpful too; I have a relatively small horse (lightweight arab x ) and I have always maintained a personal weight for him.  To have that validated and clarified and to know that others were on the same page would be really positive.  As someone who hasn't always felt positive about these things, the emphasis on welfare feels much, much healthier than any emphasis on looks or personal weight though that is important for individual health too.  It would be genuinely good to know that at any competition, regardless of how people might 'look' that they had been licenced to compete - I think it would genuinely help in the 'feelings' department too   Everyone would know they were on the side of a welfare decision; surely a good thing?!


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## ester (27 July 2022)

To clarify I meant it’s not about feelings because mental illness is also not about feelings and some people seemed to have skipped this bit in terms of weighing people and the only issue being ‘feelings’


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## CanteringCarrot (27 July 2022)

ester said:



			To clarify I meant it’s not about feelings because mental illness is also not about feelings and some people seemed to have skipped this bit in terms of weighing people and the only issue being ‘feelings’
		
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I actually did think about that. The bottom line still stands though: you're either too heavy for your horse or you're not.

Your mental illness doesn't exclude you from animal welfare rules/laws/regs/practices.


That sounds really harsh, I know. I do know that weighing people could be really damaging and anxiety inducing amongst other things, but the yearly competition license could be a half way point with private weighing, but yes, you'd still need to be weighed, and a decision would then be made based off of your weight and your horses weight.

How do you think this should be addressed?


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## ester (27 July 2022)

Of course, it just needs to be included in the assessment of risk and not referred to as hurt feelings which is very dismissive


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## palo1 (27 July 2022)

ester said:



			To clarify I meant it’s not about feelings because mental illness is also not about feelings and some people seemed to have skipped this bit in terms of weighing people and the only issue being ‘feelings’
		
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Sorry - I really didn't get that from the post.  Mental health is definitely not just about feelings.  I don't know you how you could ensure that weight related decisions are also safe from a MH point of view but I think that having clear and unambiguous guidance would also be better for people's MH than the vague sense of what might  be ok that we have now.


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## Goldenstar (27 July 2022)

YorksG said:



			The stewards at most shows are volunteers, getting people to steward currently is tough going. If stewards are then going to be asked to challenge people regarding their weight ratio to their horses weight, there will be even fewer people willing to give up their time.
		
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I have to say I think this a big  issue who would put themselves forward to do this and there’s little point of weighing people without knowing what the horses weight is and even worse should be .


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## ester (27 July 2022)

I’m genuinely not sure either but think that for some cohorts it would need some serious planning as to how to avoid unintended consequences and still maintain good welfare.


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## Goldenstar (27 July 2022)

Imagine a maxi cob class with me in charge take that ID away and bring him back 180 kilo lighter and then I will weigh you.
Probably not the best job for me.


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## palo1 (27 July 2022)

ester said:



			I’m genuinely not sure either but think that for some cohorts it would need some serious planning as to how to avoid unintended consequences and still maintain good welfare.
		
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Do you think that having really clear guidelines/regulations would be helpful from a MH point of view?  I know that many people I work with who have MH issues don't really struggle so much with regulations as situations where things are NOT clear.  It's just an idea I have from talking through things with people really.  If such a scheme were given time to come in to force too, people may be able to get their heads round it better. It may also be possible for someone really struggling with their MH to not have to know their own weight but to get the professional doing the weighing just to confirm that regs had been met?  Not sure if that would be useful or not as so much anxiety can be felt around uncertainty and specific events.  However that anxiety doesn't entitle someone to ride if that is damaging to a horse I don't think.  Very difficult to get right...


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## zaminda (27 July 2022)

rara007 said:



			I wonder how much the minimum weight limit is as a % of those Diddy lean Arabs…!
		
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In many cases a lot less than the minimum weight they have to carry at FEI! In my opinion weight is one of the biggest reasons so many break.


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## GreysForDayz (27 July 2022)

PapaverFollis said:



			When I was at my heaviest I think I was just over 15% for MrT.  I felt a bit awkward about it but consoled myself with the 20% limit AND he seemed to be coping fine.  Until I lost the weight quickly and felt the difference in him and the way he could move under me as a direct comparison.  I rode him at about 12 stone and bit then the next time I sat on him was a few weeks later at just under 11 stone (we didn't do much while actually losing the weight... it was hard!) and he felt completely different.  So much more freedom in his movement.   I could have stayed at 12 stone something, full up against his 15%, and I wouldn't have known he was finding it hard and I could have told myself that up to 20% was fine.  It was only the comparison over the short time scale that made it really clear to me that less than 15% is actually very much different.

Absolutely noone would have looked at me and said I was too big or that the horse was struggling either.  I don't think.  To be fair I don't think he was "struggling" but there was a bit of a line that had been crossed in terms of how much extra strain was being put upon him.  I feel a bit bad about it but life is full of learning opportunities isn't it?

I'd rather eat nothing but salad ever again than put that much weight on a horse again.
		
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I find posts like this so motivating. I'm currently 13 1/2 stone but would ideally like to be around the 11 mark as I know it would make my horse so much more comfortable. I look completely fine on him and am well within the "limit" he can carry but I feel like if we have the opportunity to make any part of them more comfortable then we should really take it.


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## PurBee (27 July 2022)

Just doing some sums has me realise why this topic is a concern to all riders. Tack and clothes im allowing 5kg, not sure on that but a rough guess…(not including western saddles!)

There’s a vast difference between 5%:

At 10% hardly anyone but children and very light adults would be able to ride, and 20% would allow almost everyone to find a mount:

e.g 700kg horse could be ridden by a 10 stone (65kg) naked weight + clothes+ tack For 10%

At 15% - 15 stone on a 700kg horse.

At 20%, 20 stone on a 700kg horse - most would find a mount.

Extrapolate that for the average 500kg horse = 10% - 7 stone (45kg), 15% - 10.6 stone (67.5kg), 20% - 14 stone (90kg)

My horses are between 450-500 fit weight, for 10% id have to slim right down, unhealthy weight and ride naked and bare back! 😃😂 im rural, no-one would see except the pervy farmer but id be going so fast i’d be a blur! 
I wouldnt do that, couldnt be 10% for them if i tried, so would not ride, keep them or sell them and find a very large horse which id prefer not to, so i’d not ride.

A 10% ruling would shatter the industry in one swoop. 

But if a plethora of studies and science says a horse experiences phyiological stress/damage beyond 10% we would have to face-up to these facts.

The crux of this matter is to answer if we ultimately love horses more than we love to ride them? If yes, we don’t care what % turns out to be healthy for them to carry, we’ll give up riding happily for their welfare. 

If no, we’re knowingly causing harm for our riding satisfaction, and that requires some self-reflection.


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## Tiddlypom (27 July 2022)

PurBee said:



			Just doing some sums has me realise why this topic is a concern to all riders. Tack and clothes im allowing 5kg, not sure on that but a rough guess…(not including western saddles!)
		
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My tack and summer clothing (as per my avatar) add 2.5 stone, which is 15.9kg.

That was an 18' leather Ideal VSD saddle, girth, stirrup leathers and sprenger irons. Leather snaffle bridle, reins, neck strap. HS1 crash helmet, hit air jacket, cotton jodhs, polo shirt, leather half chaps, short leather boots.

You could shave a bit off this weight if you use synthetic tack.


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## ihatework (27 July 2022)

PurBee said:



			Just doing some sums has me realise why this topic is a concern to all riders. Tack and clothes im allowing 5kg, not sure on that but a rough guess…(not including western saddles!)

There’s a vast difference between 5%:

At 10% hardly anyone but children and very light adults would be able to ride, and 20% would allow almost everyone to find a mount:

e.g 700kg horse could be ridden by a 10 stone (65kg) naked weight + clothes+ tack For 10%

At 15% - 15 stone on a 700kg horse.

At 20%, 20 stone on a 700kg horse - most would find a mount.

Extrapolate that for the average 500kg horse = 10% - 7 stone (45kg), 15% - 10.6 stone (67.5kg), 20% - 14 stone (90kg)

My horses are between 450-500 fit weight, for 10% id have to slim right down, unhealthy weight and ride naked and bare back! 😃😂 im rural, no-one would see except the pervy farmer but id be going so fast i’d be a blur! 
I wouldnt do that, couldnt be 10% for them if i tried, so would not ride, keep them or sell them and find a very large horse which id prefer not to, so i’d not ride.

A 10% ruling would shatter the industry in one swoop. 

But if a plethora of studies and science says a horse experiences phyiological stress/damage beyond 10% we would have to face-up to these facts.

The crux of this matter is to answer if we ultimately love horses more than we love to ride them? If yes, we don’t care what % turns out to be healthy for them to carry, we’ll give up riding happily for their welfare. 

If no, we’re knowingly causing harm for our riding satisfaction, and that requires some self-reflection.
		
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Quite eye opening isn’t it.
For me, pragmatically, I’d probably lean towards a max of 15% naked weight, with tack added on. Provided fit, healthy well conformed horse.
Reducing the % for compromised horses.


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## palo1 (27 July 2022)

PurBee said:



			Just doing some sums has me realise why this topic is a concern to all riders. Tack and clothes im allowing 5kg, not sure on that but a rough guess…(not including western saddles!)

There’s a vast difference between 5%:

At 10% hardly anyone but children and very light adults would be able to ride, and 20% would allow almost everyone to find a mount:

e.g 700kg horse could be ridden by a 10 stone (65kg) naked weight + clothes+ tack For 10%

At 15% - 15 stone on a 700kg horse.

At 20%, 20 stone on a 700kg horse - most would find a mount.

Extrapolate that for the average 500kg horse = 10% - 7 stone (45kg), 15% - 10.6 stone (67.5kg), 20% - 14 stone (90kg)

My horses are between 450-500 fit weight, for 10% id have to slim right down, unhealthy weight and ride naked and bare back! 😃😂 im rural, no-one would see except the pervy farmer but id be going so fast i’d be a blur!
I wouldnt do that, couldnt be 10% for them if i tried, so would not ride, keep them or sell them and find a very large horse which id prefer not to, so i’d not ride.

A 10% ruling would shatter the industry in one swoop.

But if a plethora of studies and science says a horse experiences phyiological stress/damage beyond 10% we would have to face-up to these facts.

The crux of this matter is to answer if we ultimately love horses more than we love to ride them? If yes, we don’t care what % turns out to be healthy for them to carry, we’ll give up riding happily for their welfare.

If no, we’re knowingly causing harm for our riding satisfaction, and that requires some self-reflection.
		
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I think we all know though that any riding/weight on a horse is likely to cause some 'damage' or discomfort; ideally horses probably wouldn't be ridden in fact. But human history is utterly entangled with horses so it may be more difficult and potentially more damaging to horses as a species if they were never ridden/only existed in some increasingly contested and narrow 'wilderness'.  I mean I would much rather only have to carry 10% of any weight than 20% - not sure how much the 5% contributes to damage more than the 10%.  I guess that is why we need more information etc.


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## sbloom (27 July 2022)

palo1 said:



			I think we all know though that any riding/weight on a horse is likely to cause some 'damage' or discomfort; ideally horses probably wouldn't be ridden in fact. But human history is utterly entangled with horses so it may be more difficult and potentially more damaging to horses as a species if they were never ridden/only existed in some increasingly contested and narrow 'wilderness'.  I mean I would much rather only have to carry 10% of any weight than 20% - not sure how much the 5% contributes to damage more than the 10%.  I guess that is why we need more information etc.
		
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It's why I've changed my approach so much to saddle fitting, we need to do everything in our power to enable them to carry us without compromise.  I see some horrors out there...


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## palo1 (27 July 2022)

sbloom said:



			It's why I've changed my approach so much to saddle fitting, we need to do everything in our power to enable them to carry us without compromise.  I see some horrors out there...
		
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Yes, I can imagine.  I am immensely grateful for my saddle fitter who has given really sound, honest advice for over 20 years and as a result I have had happy, sound horses that can carry me even when I have been at the top of the 15% limit.  Following this discussion I am hugely relieved that I haven't been over that with my lot though it could be easily, very easily done.  I now feel even more committed to losing more weight tbh even when that is very hard.  I don't have problems with food but I do enjoy food and wine, I love cooking and am, honestly, greedy.  I would love to think I could get to 10% of my lightest horse's weight but I cannot imagine that being possible.  I will have to identify the best weight I can manage to sustain I guess.  Just walking away from the thought of a piece of toast lol!


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## sbloom (27 July 2022)

As I always say, look at Rebelfit, even if just to read their posts on the philosophy of health and weight loss, if you keep saying you're greedy a. it's not true, and b. it's not helpful .  We use such negative terms for natural behaviours, "greed" is natural, it kept us alive when we needed every calorie we could find, it's just some people find it easier than others to ignore that drive, some don't have it at all.


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## PurBee (27 July 2022)

Tiddlypom said:



			My tack and summer clothing (as per my avatar) add 2.5 stone, which is 15.9kg.

That was an 18' leather Ideal VSD saddle, girth, stirrup leathers and sprenger irons. Leather snaffle bridle, reins, neck strap. HS1 crash helmet, hit air jacket, cotton jodhs, polo shirt, leather half chaps, short leather boots.

You could shave a bit off this weight if you use synthetic tack.
		
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I was way off with tack and clothing allowance - it all adds up doesnt it.

To be fair to both ponies/horses and riders i think some % guide should be enforced - start at 20% so that allows all to have a mount. This 20% is viewed as too generous by current studies, yet its a starting point isn’t it, rather than have no regulations at all. This would enable the subject to become better understood. Help professionals have official guidelines to counsel clients on etc. 
A 20% enforcement would give all scope to ride _something_, but stop the worst people/pony combinations from happening - like more than 8.5 stone on a 13hh 350kg pony. (Considering your 2.5 stone clothes and tack TP)


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## Tiddlypom (27 July 2022)

My saddle fitter has, since January, been weighing the rider inc tack. It's optional, of course.

Brave, and forward thinking.


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## SEL (27 July 2022)

ester said:



			There are limits for games
'
A rider weighing over 54kg may not ride a pony 128cm or under.
▶
A rider weighing over 60kg may not ride a pony 133cm or under.
▶
A rider weighing over 66kg may not ride a pony 138cm or under.


Though weighing kids can be problematic, more so than just 'hurt feelings'.
		
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Those are actually higher kg weights than I was expecting.

My friend's daughter does mounted games. She had to move onto a bigger pony when she hit 13 purely because she got heavier (she's still tiny!). It was all handled very sensitively and her biggest gripe was she had to learn to vault onto a slightly bigger pony. I think because the rules are the same for all she didn't think it was in the slightest bit personal.

I think if it was a criteria of competing and it was in all the upfront paperwork that riders should be below 15% of their horse's ideal bodyweight (& please ask your vet if you aren't sure) then anyone who was excessively over this would just stay home. Hopefully in time it would become the standard and no one would take offence


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## TPO (27 July 2022)

I'm sure this has been asked and answered before but for my sieve brain...

My western saddle weighs circa 25kg including heavier (than wood) metal engraved stirrups. I actually think its heavier based in previous saddles that I've owned and weighed. This is before 3/4" thick wool felt pads and cinch/rear cinch and other tack (some western breastcollars are pretty heavy). 

The party line is that due to the size of the tree, the leather skirts and the wide sheepskin panel undersides that this large area distributes weight and pressure "better" than an English treed saddle. 

I understand that weight is still weight but equated it to having to carry 20kg I a random backpack compared to a fitted backpack with the straps correctly adjusted. 

Doing my bad maths if I took 20-25kg off the 15% weight that makes it 8st. I've not been that weight since I was 15. 

I know that common sense has to be applied. There's a difference between a 14.3hh QH and a 14.3hh fine show pony for example. 

But yeah, was just wondering how heavier (but more load bearing area?) saddles fit into the discussion


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## sbloom (27 July 2022)

zaminda said:



			In many cases a lot less than the minimum weight they have to carry at FEI! In my opinion weight is one of the biggest reasons so many break.
		
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I'd say they break because they're in compensatory movement patterns, carrying too much weight is one factor that contributes to that, but only one.



TPO said:



			But yeah, was just wondering how heavier (but more load bearing area?) saddles fit into the discussion
		
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You answered it yourself really, weight is weight.  I actually think the historical fixation on spreading weight longitudinally along the horse's back, and laterally across the seat especially has done everyone a disservice.  If we can unweight the rider's seatbones (needed in so many cases), get riders into a properly supported neutral pelvis (the correct 3 point seat), sit them over the horse's centre of gravity and get weight down their inner thighs, then the horse can carry us more easily full stop.

If you sat on the back of your long, heavy saddle you'd cause more issues than if you sat as above, so it's just never as simple as that sadly.


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## Orangehorse (27 July 2022)

Some of the weight bearing research was done by the USA cavalry, when they were loading pack horses with known weights and measured over known work load and effort, ie. length of time working, journey, etc and I think it was an extensive test and the 20% came from that.

You have to wonder with western saddles and large men riding cowponies for hours.  But I suppose that the cow pony was a tool for work and the question of long and sound life was secondary.


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## palo1 (27 July 2022)

sbloom said:



			As I always say, look at Rebelfit, even if just to read their posts on the philosophy of health and weight loss, if you keep saying you're greedy a. it's not true, and b. it's not helpful .  We use such negative terms for natural behaviours, "greed" is natural, it kept us alive when we needed every calorie we could find, it's just some people find it easier than others to ignore that drive, some don't have it at all.
		
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Let me modify 'greedy' to 'very much enjoying the taste, texture and smell of good food, which I also enjoy creating' lol!  I will look at rebelfit as happy to do anything that makes weight loss or healthy maitenance easier but I think I have a good relationship with food on the whole.  I enjoy reading about it, understanding it's history and provenance etc and I rarely look at my body (even when over ideal weight) negatively.   I am going to go and look at Rebelfit now though.  Thank you.


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## TPO (27 July 2022)

Food (lettuce!) for thought

Most types of QH are 15hh or less, the Pleasure types are 16.2hh range. Given the weight of the saddles using 15-20% rule tops out under 12st if a horse was 500kg. I've never put a stick on mine and I'm useless at guessing but I'd say he's between 14.2 -15hh and weight tapes in around 480kg. He has a well sprung barrel and I know tapes aren't accurate. 

Reining was in WEG, I think they used to publish riders stats but maybe that was just the Olympics. I bet the weights of some of those riders would 😲😲😲


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## ester (27 July 2022)

Orangehorse said:



			Some of the weight bearing research was done by the USA cavalry, when they were loading pack horses with known weights and measured over known work load and effort, ie. length of time working, journey, etc and I think it was an extensive test and the 20% came from that.

You have to wonder with western saddles and large men riding cowponies for hours.  But I suppose that the cow pony was a tool for work and the question of long and sound life was secondary.
		
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Except it’s also best not to break the tools you’ve spent time training


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## Tiddlypom (27 July 2022)

TPO, does your Western saddle really weigh 25kg inc stirrups? Without any other tack?

How on earth do you lift on the horse (not kidding)?


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## ycbm (27 July 2022)

Tiddlypom said:



			TPO, does your Western saddle really weigh 25kg inc stirrups? Without any other tack?

How on earth do you lift on the horse (not kidding)?
		
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I can barely lift my friend's western saddles. I think she said hers is 30kg.
.


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## PapaverFollis (27 July 2022)

25kg is very heavy!  I couldn't lift that to horse's back height I don't think. 😕


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## Barton Bounty (27 July 2022)

Holy moly that is a workout itself 😂


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## planete (27 July 2022)

Lifting a western saddle onto a horse's back is a knack!  You actually swing it upwards and try to let it come down onto the horse's back as gently as possible.  Well perhaps not if you are 6ft and built like Arnold but I had to as rather vertically challenged.


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## Barton Bounty (27 July 2022)

planete said:



			Lifting a western saddle onto a horse's back is a knack!  You actually swing it upwards and try to let it come down onto the horse's back as gently as possible.  Well perhaps not if you are 6ft and built like Arnold but I had to as rather vertically challenged.
		
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Id have no chance lol, im vertically challenged too 😂


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## TPO (27 July 2022)

I think so. I've not weighed this one but will do when I have the energy to lug it back up to the house.  

The shipping label said 20kg buy it was self printed. I've posted lighter saddles and they've been 27kg boxed up and this saddle is the heaviest I've owned (or I'm weaker 🤔). It's the first I've had with metal stirrups and there's a bit of weight in them when I stripped the saddle to clean and polish them.

This is the beast in question



This is it on my beast. He's not standing funny because it's too heavy, he's just always very keen to sneak out his stable to the hay stored across the way 😏 Also excuse zero muscle tone or fitness, he wasn't/isn't long off box rest after an attempted amputation (which successfully got him out of going to the breed show almost as if he planned it 🙄).




As to saddling. My usual method is to hook the offside stirrup over the horn then gently lift it on. Having said that I've never had to saddle anything bigger than 15.2hh.

The new way that I'm trying to figure out is much easier but I've not got getting th3 saddle into position sorted yet. So if you were on left side of saddle as its on a rack you put right hand onto offside cantle and left hand under front skirts then rest it vertically on your hip. From there it's surprising easy just to swing it on (admittedly I have a few practice goes on the gate). Rubbish description so I'll find a video...






Skip to 1.28 to see how he holds it


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## sbloom (27 July 2022)

Look where it sits you, it has great forward balance from what I can see (I don't fit Western at all) so he's carrying you on the strongest part of his back, if you then have weight on your pubic arch and thighs you're in the most efficient position for him to carry you.


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## TPO (27 July 2022)

sbloom said:



			Look where it sits you, it has great forward balance from what I can see (I don't fit Western at all) so he's carrying you on the strongest part of his back, if you then have weight on your pubic arch and thighs you're in the most efficient position for him to carry you.
		
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This is a reining saddle so they have the biggest slope to make it easier to sit sliding stops and swing your fenders/legs forward. "Sitting on your back pockets" is a thing.

Pleasure and equitation are similar alignments to English saddles. Ranch saddles have flatter seats and cutting saddles are flat and hard. I've never seen a roping saddle in the flesh so not 100% sure of their seats.

But yeah, can't get 15% on small horses including 20kg+ tack to add up and not sure if that's a "thing" or if the saddle's wider area and pad do offset the weight at all and/or if the "strength" of QHs (& stocky natives/cobs) alters the weight calculation.

If it does how do you factor in the common sense element because its clearly not that common!


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## palo1 (27 July 2022)

I wouldn't have a hope of getting within 15% with a 25kg saddle though I did have a western type endurance saddle that only weighed 8kg. I imagine a lot of people would struggle to get the maths to work with such a hefty beast of a saddle tbh. My endurance western saddle was nowhere near as fancy and nice as yours lol!!


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## sbloom (27 July 2022)

TPO said:



			This is a reining saddle so they have the biggest slope to make it easier to sit sliding stops and swing your fenders/legs forward. "Sitting on your back pockets" is a thing.
		
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Oh I hear you, I rode my whole life on my pockets I think, down to not finding any saddle truly comfortable!

It's where the deepest part is, it's more forwards than where most English (all the usual English brands, and some German etc) saddles sit you.


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## ester (27 July 2022)

It's a beautiful looking saddle tpo.


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## Goldenstar (27 July 2022)

It is a lovely looking saddle and it matches the horse beautifully.


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## Winters100 (27 July 2022)

ester said:



			To clarify I meant it’s not about feelings because mental illness is also not about feelings and some people seemed to have skipped this bit in terms of weighing people and the only issue being ‘feelings’
		
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But are you then saying that animal welfare should be sacrificed because of the mental health issues of humans?  Clearly a 'voluntary' scheme is not working, so something needs to change.  If riders were weighed prior to competing then those who did not agree could choose to not compete.  Just the same as when I grew up with a disabled Mother there were many activities which we could not do as a family, but we did not whinge and whine about it, just found other things to do.

However it is enforced, whether by weighing all, or by selecting those combinations who appear to exceed the limit, I believe that something needs to be done to remedy this problem. Should the welfare of the animals not come above any physical or mental health issues of the riders who choose to partake in this hobby?


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## maggiestar (28 July 2022)

Riding horses is therapeutic but we can't put our own mental health above the physical health and comfort of horses. We have other options available to us whereas horses have no options at all.


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## ponynutz (28 July 2022)

PapaverFollis said:



			So we're not allowed to "fat shame" but we can use derogatory language to criticise a person who is a healthy weight? 😕 10.5 stone is going to be bang in the middle of healthy weight for many people.
		
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Yes, I'm perfectly bang-on in the middle BMI wise but weight distribution and being in the horsey world in general has led to having a lot of this ^^ I'm sure others face it too and it's a crying shame in this day and age people have such a problem with not being the beauty standard. Understand encouraging people who are unhealthy to become healthy but recognising the difference between obesity and unfortunate weight distribution is key - we can do it in our horses, why not in us too?

In terms of horses we really, really need some more study to be done into this topic which hopefully will allow less stigma around weight in the equestrian world.


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## Caol Ila (28 July 2022)

If you rent or buy a pair of skis, and the ski shop adjusts the bindings to your boots, they will ask for your weight and skiing ability. It's purely a safety thing. The settings on the bindings dictates how easily (or not) they release, and that's determined by the weight and skill of the skiier. You want them to pop off if you crash so you don't break your leg, but you don't want them to pop off unexpectedly when cranking around a mogul or dropping off a cornice. A novice skiier, who isn't hucking cornices, will have them on a low setting, as they will probably fall a lot and they aren't skiing aggressively. An advanced skiier will have them on a high setting, but a lightweight advanced skiier will have them on a lower setting than a heavier one. A heavier skiier of any abilty puts more torque on the ski, so the bindings need to be adjusted for that. Ski shops just ask you. They don't make a big deal out of it.


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## Tiddlypom (28 July 2022)

It is indeed a lovely looking saddle, TPO, but at c25kg+ with stirrups any perceived benefit of spreading the rider's weight over a wider area is surely negated by the extra weight of the saddle itself over a well fitting English type saddle.

It must weigh at least 15kg more than a conventional leather English saddle inc stirrups, bearing in mind that my entire conventional English leather tack and all my clothing inc hat and boots etc weighs in at 15.9kg.

That's grand if the rider can still do the weights. I certainly couldn't .


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## TPO (28 July 2022)

Tiddlypom said:



			It is indeed a lovely looking saddle, TPO, but at c25kg+ with stirrups any perceived benefit of spreading the rider's weight over a wider area is surely negated by the extra weight of the saddle itself over a well fitting English type saddle.

It must weigh at least 15kg more than a conventional leather English saddle inc stirrups, bearing in mind that my entire conventional English leather tack and all my clothing inc hat and boots etc weighs in at 15.9kg.
		
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Yeah and that's what's got me wondering.

Probably wording this badly but I'll give it a go... does the extra weight of the saddle get balanced out by the weight distribution. So yes it's 25kg (for easy counting) but does it offset say 10kg of rider weight? Not sure if that makes sense.

As said somewhere up thread horses are often used as tools and people definitely want their good horses to be and stay sound, fit and healthy ao that they are usable. The Western saddle has been in use for hundreds of years without much in the way of  modification and I'm pretty sure that the majority of riders are over 8st. 

My bad maths days that if you have a 500kg horse and 25kg saddle/gear then the heaviest weight at 20% is 11st 11lbs naked. 15% of a 480kg horse -25kg saddle is a naked weight of 7st 5lb. 15% of 500kg horse -25kg saddle is naked weight of 7st 12lb

I'd feel comfortable assuming that the large majority of people riding in western saddles are over 15% with their saddles. I'd also hazard a guess that a lot of ranchers are over the 20% weight along with male trainers and that's before looking at the leisure industry.

So I guess what I'm wondering is; can certain breeds/types comfortably carry more or are we (generic) turning a blind eye because it's something that needs to happen to get a job done (ranchers)/that people want to do for their enjoyment (competition/leisure industry)?

From what I read American QHs get referred to in the 1000 - 1200 lb range, so 480 -545kg. It's not like they are on bigger horses. Having said that just did 20% calc on 545kg horse -25kg saddle and that's a naked weight of 13st 2lb.

Another pondering is that QHs, generally speaking, muscle up quite well. So they may be smaller in volume/circumference but as muscle is more dense they actually weigh more than a weight tape would indicate. Also if well muscled are they able to carry more because they should therefore be stronger? Is that maybe how they "manage"? 

Just wondering if any of these variables actually matter or if people (me, who will never be in the 8st range never mind 7!) do a lot of mental gymnastics to justify things to themselves so they can keep doing as they please.


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## PapaverFollis (28 July 2022)

It is possible that the "tipping point" (where they move from acceptable strain, let's say, to a damaging kind of strain) could be higher for a quarter horse because of their overall stockiness and robustness from the generations of being hard-working horses.  But I also wonder about mental gymnastics. 

If you have a lighter weight saddle that fits, TPO, you could see if you feel a difference?  Or even if you can sit on bareback, though that might introduce more variables. Some of the ride tracking apps measure stride length too don't they (though god knows how accurate they are)? You could do an experiment.


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## ester (28 July 2022)

Winters100 said:



			But are you then saying that animal welfare should be sacrificed because of the mental health issues of humans?  Clearly a 'voluntary' scheme is not working, so something needs to change.  If riders were weighed prior to competing then those who did not agree could choose to not compete.  Just the same as when I grew up with a disabled Mother there were many activities which we could not do as a family, but we did not whinge and whine about it, just found other things to do.

However it is enforced, whether by weighing all, or by selecting those combinations who appear to exceed the limit, I believe that something needs to be done to remedy this problem. Should the welfare of the animals not come above any physical or mental health issues of the riders who choose to partake in this hobby?
		
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No I'm not saying that, I think you are extrapolating.
I'm just annoyed at people repeatedly mentioning hurt feelings which suggests that they don't understand the issue/associated risks at all and they do need to be taken into consideration when planning what to do about it.


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## ycbm (28 July 2022)

I think there are differences breed wise, TPO.  Particularly thinking of QH, their whole training and breeding seems to me to be about lifting the feet as little distance from the floor as is practical with taking a stride of a reasonable (but still short compared to other disciplines)  length.  It's about covering distance while conserving energy.  

I think this will inevitably mean that a QH can comfortably carry more weight than a horse with more suspension in its paces. 

I still worry about the weights I see small QH carrying,  though.
.


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## Caol Ila (28 July 2022)

There was a guy at my barn with two _tiny _QHs - far tinier than TPOs and others I've seen - who rode Western, and he was a substantial guy. Over 6' tall, and quite broad. If him and his saddle were anywhere near 20%, I'll eat my hat. Those horses were about 14.2, with little teacup feet.

Too many QHs are bred with teeny weeny feet and straight hocks. I think this is rewarded in the American version of showing, which is why it's gotten so prevalent in the breed, even in non-showing horses.  TPO's horse is more correct than many I have seen, including the one I owned as a kid. That horse would not have been idea for a large guy in a Western saddle.

It doesn't help that a lot of the Western showing disciplines put the big money on 2-year old classes, so (a) everyone, including hefty blokes, rides 2-year olds and (b) no one actually cares about the longevity.

You can still buy a solid, strong ranch-bred QH, but you have to dig through a lot of dross to find one.


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## TPO (28 July 2022)

ycbm said:



			I think there are differences breed wise, TPO.  Particularly thinking of QH, their whole training and breeding seems to me to be about lifting the feet as little distance from the floor as is practical with taking a stride of a reasonable (but still short compared to other disciplines)  length.  It's about covering distance while conserving energy. 

I think this will inevitably mean that a QH can comfortably carry more weight than a horse with more suspension in its paces.

I still worry about the weights I see small QH carrying,  though.
.
		
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Yeah and this is where the grey area is. I could "justify" my* 20% weight + 25kg saddle because my* horse is fit, strong, stocky, well built etc AND smaller horses carry more doing more rigorous tasks. So is it actually OK because those horses ARE fine or is it just OK because I've seen worse?

*generically speaking

I've said upthread I didn't ride when I was 2st heavier and I'm not riding just now because I still feel too big in myself for the horse and also my centre of gravity/point of balance is altered with the excess weight plus I'm also unfit and have a core like jelly. My horse is a good but *if* anything were to spook him he can drop a shoulder and spin on a penny. I'd be a goner currently. I'm honestly fed up telling folk I'm too heavy when they ask because all they do is rhyme off the plethora of bigger people riding. Also my horse is coming off yonks of box rest for 2 incidents and been out of work since before last winter so not fair on him either. Do hoping his prep work strengthens him and helps me knock a few more kilos off.

But I could look at Ray the Goth and Blog of a Cob and think thst since I'm much smaller it would be OK for me to ride if I was looking for a way to justify it iykwim.

There are too many different types of QH to be able to say that they are X, Y or Z. Halters have tiny hooves and straight hocks but they're not intended for ridden careers these days. Equally Pleasure horses wouldn't be expected to stand up to ranch work. Reiners, that are the type most likely seen, tend to be small too ~14.2hh and quite a few in thr WEG American teams have been larger people which hasn't helped perception


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## Roxylola (28 July 2022)

We can't in reality stop people who are too heavy for their own horses from riding them though. People will ride, people will have their social media.  While their isn't anything in place to regulate competing it looks acceptable.  If there were *something* in place to ensure competing riders were on a suitable size of horse it would at least be a clear boundary


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## Caol Ila (28 July 2022)

Hah, I remember the QH drop-and-spin. Had me on the floor many times. My Highland has a mean spin, but he lifts his neck and shoulders, which makes it far easier to stick!


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## marmalade76 (28 July 2022)

TPO said:



			Yeah and that's what's got me wondering.

Probably wording this badly but I'll give it a go... does the extra weight of the saddle get balanced out by the weight distribution. So yes it's 25kg (for easy counting) but does it offset say 10kg of rider weight? Not sure if that makes sense.

As said somewhere up thread horses are often used as tools and people definitely want their good horses to be and stay sound, fit and healthy ao that they are usable. The Western saddle has been in use for hundreds of years without much in the way of  modification and I'm pretty sure that the majority of riders are over 8st.

My bad maths days that if you have a 500kg horse and 25kg saddle/gear then the heaviest weight at 20% is 11st 11lbs naked. 15% of a 480kg horse -25kg saddle is a naked weight of 7st 5lb. 15% of 500kg horse -25kg saddle is naked weight of 7st 12lb

I'd feel comfortable assuming that the large majority of people riding in western saddles are over 15% with their saddles. I'd also hazard a guess that a lot of ranchers are over the 20% weight along with male trainers and that's before looking at the leisure industry.

So I guess what I'm wondering is; can certain breeds/types comfortably carry more or are we (generic) turning a blind eye because it's something that needs to happen to get a job done (ranchers)/that people want to do for their enjoyment (competition/leisure industry)?

From what I read American QHs get referred to in the 1000 - 1200 lb range, so 480 -545kg. It's not like they are on bigger horses. Having said that just did 20% calc on 545kg horse -25kg saddle and that's a naked weight of 13st 2lb.

Another pondering is that QHs, generally speaking, muscle up quite well. So they may be smaller in volume/circumference but as muscle is more dense they actually weigh more than a weight tape would indicate. Also if well muscled are they able to carry more because they should therefore be stronger? Is that maybe how they "manage"?

Just wondering if any of these variables actually matter or if people (me, who will never be in the 8st range never mind 7!) do a lot of mental gymnastics to justify things to themselves so they can keep doing as they please.
		
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I do think that certain breeds & types are better weight carriers than others - natives, cobs, arabs, QH, all, I would say would cope better with a higher % of their own weight than say, TBs, sports horses, warmbloods and even some of the taller heavy horses. Height doesn't necessarily add strength, shorter levers are less likely to break.


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## TPO (28 July 2022)

marmalade76 said:



			I do think that certain breeds & types are better weight carriers than others - natives, cobs, arabs, QH, all, I would say would cope better with a higher % of their own weight than say, TBs, sports horses, warmbloods and even some of the taller heavy horses. Height doesn't necessarily add strength, shorter levers are less likely to break.
		
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Yeah and I guess that's what stops it being as simple as standing on scales holding your tack.

I'm not anti-"something should be done" at all but people determined to ride regardless for their own enjoyment are going to do it. Those high profile social media accounts prove it. Those accounts also disprove the alleged fat shaming because both riders are grossly obese yet very much out in public. No one has "shamed" them into considering their animals' welfare 😏

I probably wouldn't harm my horse riding him but *I* want to reduce that potential so I'll try to continue losing weight. Others obviously don't feel the same. But having said thst I had an amount in mind but thats wasn't including the 25kg saddle. I'd have to be a few weeks into the decomposing process to ever be 7st!


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## Goldenstar (28 July 2022)

I think discussing this issue openly places like here is good it gets it’s all out there and I don’t think anyone should be shy of saying it’s simply not ok to be too heavy for your horse 
Weight is a sensitive issue that’s a given but horse welfare is more important no one needs to ride and you need to buy the horse that’s the right size for you .
I have now bought bigger horses than I did when I was younger slimmer and fitter .
People need to be realistic about this .
Being fat is so normalised now it’s extremely sad because just like a horse there’s a price to pay down the line for being too fat .


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## marmalade76 (28 July 2022)

I saw a pic of RtG with her horse, I think it was on the Harry Hall Facebook page. First comment I read was something along the lines of "lovely to see a normal size person in these ads". Since when was being morbidly obese normal? What is wrong with people? I suppose there is a chance that she was being sarcastic 🤔


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## WelshD (28 July 2022)

With regards to showing I think its going to get very complicated to start imposing weight limits or weighing people but I DO think that consistently low placings would go a long way to making people rethink things.

If a judge sees knees over the front of the saddle, bums practically on the loins or someone so overweight their bum is munching on the saddle then they should place down the line simply give a diplomatic 'I'm sorry the overall picture isn't quite right' and leave it at that

In showing really the only way to make changes is by stopping rewarding the worst offenders who in many cases should know better. You only have to look at the HOYS qualifiers that one show lost who just happened to take a big stand to see that some parts of the showing world simply don't want to rock the boat - same story with pony weight it wont change as long as its rewarded


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## Widgeon (28 July 2022)

Peglo said:



			I was at camp at the weekend and they had the weigh bridge for the horses . I weighed Tali and then asked if I could come back with my hat and tack so I could find out how much she was carrying. They said absolutely but was shocked I’d want to. I’m delighted I’m at 14.6% so just under the 15% mark but no one else wanted to find out their percentage. Not even the thin people. Maybe me doing it might make people have a think about it, you never know. Being close to the 15% mark made me get in the gym yesterday though when I was shattered and would’ve happily sat on the sofa.
		
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Ooh what a good idea - I will have to do this one day when my OH is out or he'll think I'm insane, teetering on the scales with my hat on clutching my saddle....


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## Goldenstar (28 July 2022)

WelshD said:



			With regards to showing I think its going to get very complicated to start imposing weight limits or weighing people but I DO think that consistently low placings would go a long way to making people rethink things.

If a judge sees knees over the front of the saddle, bums practically on the loins or someone so overweight their bum is munching on the saddle then they should place down the line simply give a diplomatic 'I'm sorry the overall picture isn't quite right' and leave it at that

In showing really the only way to make changes is by stopping rewarding the worst offenders who in many cases should know better. You only have to look at the HOYS qualifiers that one show lost who just happened to take a big stand to see that some parts of the showing world simply don't want to rock the boat - same story with pony weight it wont change as long as its rewarded
		
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This makes perfect sense part of showing is the overall picture so punish people spilling over saddles as it marrs the picture however could this could be easily be seen as fat shaming and the judge could end up being vilified .
Being fat is now so normal it’s a mine field no one wants to attack someone’s self esteem and make people miserable but we are in a situation where it’s not ok to say to the young you are damaging your health and facing a miserable middle age because the body only jollies along suffering quietly for so long before the you pay the price .


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## ester (28 July 2022)

How does showing scoring break down? Is there an overall impression mark/equivalent?


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## Roxylola (28 July 2022)

It's a difficult one with regard to fat shaming. I know that friends of mine who are over weight go to the doctors for anything and their weight is always brought up - literally an ear infection and doctor will mention them being over weight. It's a reality they live with every single day. They don't need anyone to tell them.
Another difficulty is that often the people saying that x or y is too big for their horse or that there should be a limit to what any horse is expected to carry are often not overweight at all. Its one reason I try and stay out of this type of discussion, there is so much more to it than the number a person shows on a scale.


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## RachelFerd (28 July 2022)

There's another angle to this -- which goes beyond whether or not you are an appropriate weight for your horse - which is, should you be competing if you are the correct weight but not suitably fit? You could be overweight and unfit but riding an appropriately large horse for the weight - but is it *still* not the rider's responsibility to be in a state of good fitness in order to be considering asking their horse to do something athletic? 

In horseracing jockeys have to pass a fitness test.

I've always wondered whether it would be appropriate to have a similar basic fitness test for eventing, given the risks of riding at speed over solid obstacles.


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## Birker2020 (28 July 2022)

Roxylola said:



			It's a difficult one with regard to fat shaming. I know that friends of mine who are over weight go to the doctors for anything and their weight is always brought up - literally an ear infection and doctor will mention them being over weight. It's a reality they live with every single day. They don't need anyone to tell them.
Another difficulty is that often the people saying that x or y is too big for their horse or that there should be a limit to what any horse is expected to carry are often not overweight at all. Its one reason I try and stay out of this type of discussion, there is so much more to it than the number a person shows on a scale.
		
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Doctors mention it I'm guessing because obesity is the biggest killer in this country (that and obesity related illnesses/diseases).  This is why its cheaper for the NHS to fund bariatric surgery than it is to deal with people with weight related health issues.

I agree 100% with you saying that there is a lot more involved than numbers on a scale.


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## Barton Bounty (28 July 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			Doctors mention it I'm guessing because obesity is the biggest killer in this country (that and obesity related illnesses/diseases).  This is why its cheaper for the NHS to fund bariatric surgery than it is to deal with people with weight related health issues.

I agree 100% with you saying that there is a lot more involved than numbers on a scale.
		
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Obesity is? Cause I have lost 5 family members to cancer this year 😞 all of which were skinny as… ill stay positively plump 🙄


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## Birker2020 (28 July 2022)

Barton Bounty said:



			Obesity is? Cause I have lost 5 family members to cancer this year 😞 all of which were skinny as… ill stay positively plump 🙄
		
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Yep 30,000 a year.  I tackled smoking and gave that up.  Food has always been beyond my grasp....
sorry to hear about your family


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## SEL (28 July 2022)

Barton Bounty said:



			Obesity is? Cause I have lost 5 family members to cancer this year 😞 all of which were skinny as… ill stay positively plump 🙄
		
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5 is a tough year :-( 

Lots of side effects of obesity - type 2 diabetes being the big one with its massive knock on effects on the body. I've sat in the hospital with the diabetic amputees and its incredibly sad. The reasons behind weight gain are complex and our processed food industry doesn't help.


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## Roxylola (28 July 2022)

I know that's why they bring it up, but I think like a lot (most) obese people my friends are well aware of that and having it pointed out in relation to an ear infection seems a bit unnecessary, irrelevant - and imo a good way to make people defensive. 
Again while I understand why fitness tests might be a good idea as someone who would have no issue passing I'm not sure I am qualified to comment


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## Neversaydie (28 July 2022)

Roxylola said:



			I know that's why they bring it up, but I think like a lot (most) obese people my friends are well aware of that and having it pointed out in relation to an ear infection seems a bit unnecessary, irrelevant - and imo a good way to make people defensive.
Again while I understand why fitness tests might be a good idea as someone who would have no issue passing I'm not sure I am qualified to comment
		
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I would pass a fitness test. I can run 5km several times a week, I go to the gym 3days a week but I’ve had people comment before that I look a bit chunky. I’m in the unfortunate weight distribution dept I’m afraid. Thick thighs, broad shoulders and big boobs. You can’t win Really.


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## ponynutz (28 July 2022)

I think there's two issues to this thread and they're being coagulated which is causing confusion and possibly even people being guarded (weight is a very sensitive topic).

1) Genuinely obese or overweight people who perhaps might not be able to have the chance to ride given their weight. These people are, just like horses, at risk to themselves and I truly believe many of them are doing their utmost to lose the weight - upon doing so they should be allowed to ride. Horse welfare comes first, it's not a question of inclusion.

2) More research needing to be done so that fit, healthy people can know what horse best suits them without being judged based only off the eye. Research is how we stop stigma.


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## Barton Bounty (28 July 2022)

SEL said:



			5 is a tough year :-(

Lots of side effects of obesity - type 2 diabetes being the big one with its massive knock on effects on the body. I've sat in the hospital with the diabetic amputees and its incredibly sad. The reasons behind weight gain are complex and our processed food industry doesn't help.
		
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My husband ended up with type 2 from a lengthy time taking antibiotics nothing to do with weight. 🤷🏼‍♀️


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## Kat (28 July 2022)

Barton Bounty said:



			My husband ended up with type 2 from a lengthy time taking antibiotics nothing to do with weight. 🤷🏼‍♀️
		
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My Mum was a tiny size 8 when she was diagnosed with adult onset diabetes. She's suffering several complications now, and it is incredibly frustrating to see type 2 diabetes being referred to constantly as an avoidable consequence of being overweight.


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## Barton Bounty (28 July 2022)

Kat said:



			My Mum was a tiny size 8 when she was diagnosed with adult onset diabetes. She's suffering several complications now, and it is incredibly frustrating to see type 2 diabetes being referred to constantly as an avoidable consequence of being overweight.
		
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Thank you! Finally.. its not all about being overweight. I am pretty fit, would pass a fitness test also but im a size 16 have been since I grew boobs 🤷🏼‍♀️ I must admit, I HAVE NEVER been questioned by my doctor about being overweight when I have went in with an illness.. even this osteoarthritis, its a bone degeneration, its also genetic…if I lose weight the bones are atill going to rub together as there is no cartilage and so is the rheumatoid arthritis I have, its an auto immune disease, no amount of losing weight is going to help it 🤷🏼‍♀️ I also have no red blood cells and none of it is anything to do with my weight 🤷🏼‍♀️ I also have no red blood cells now. As a regular blood donor , I am absolutely devastated with that! 😞


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## Barton Bounty (28 July 2022)

Kat said:



			My Mum was a tiny size 8 when she was diagnosed with adult onset diabetes. She's suffering several complications now, and it is incredibly frustrating to see type 2 diabetes being referred to constantly as an avoidable consequence of being overweight.
		
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I hope your mum feels better soon Kat ♥️


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## PapaverFollis (28 July 2022)

Statistically health outcomes ARE linked to body weight and obesity.   Individual experiences don't change that.


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## PapaverFollis (28 July 2022)

Just because some thin people get sick and some obese people stay healthy doesn't mean that an individual's chance of staying healthy is not improved by staying slim.

It is about risk.


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## CanteringCarrot (28 July 2022)

I think that carrying less weight might still be easier on/better for your joints though. I have a few bad joints, and I imagine they'd feel worse if I carried around more weight. Certainly wouldn't help, I imagine.


Keeping my weight down and muscles strong helps some of my knackered joints to some extent. Yes, I'll never grow the cartilage back and can't undo arthritis, but some things can help. There are also some foods/diets that are shown to be pro-inflammatory.


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## shortstuff99 (28 July 2022)

Type 2 diabetes can also be caused by pancreatic cancer, and that is often ignored in favour of diet changes or talking about size until it is too late.

Anyway bit off topic sorry!


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## Kat (28 July 2022)

Barton Bounty said:



			I hope your mum feels better soon Kat ♥️
		
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Thank you. 

Diabetes is a horrible condition with so many horrible side effects. Referring to it as some kind of side effect of over eating just makes it more difficult for those affected and increases stigma. 

Obesity is just one cause of diabetes and some people are more at risk than others meaning they may not need to be very overweight at all.


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## Kat (28 July 2022)

PapaverFollis said:



			Just because some thin people get sick and some obese people stay healthy doesn't mean that an individual's chance of staying healthy is not improved by staying slim.

It is about risk.
		
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Absolutely but stigmatising certain conditions or individuals is counter productive and can lead to delayed diagnosis, mis-diagnosis, and worse outcomes.


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## Tiddlypom (28 July 2022)

Dr Michael Mosley (author of the Blood Sugar Diet, amongst other diet books) was himself unexpectedly diagnosed with type 2 diabetes when not particularly overweight. He is a TOFI - thin on the outside, fat on the inside. The fat is clearly visible on an MRI scan.

He has reversed it by adjusting his diet and losing weight, and without needing medication.


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## PapaverFollis (28 July 2022)

Saying that obesity increases your risk of diabetes is not saying that obesity is the only cause of diabetes.  It is not necessarily stigmatising or ignoring other causes.  Being thin is not a panacea against all health troubles but it DOES improve your chances overall.

Again I think this is something where our gut microbiome probably plays a huge role too. And the general quality of your diet regardless of whether one is overweight from it or not.  And whether one gets enough exercise and vitamin D and probably a dozen other things that we don't even know about yet, never mind understand.

Health is complicated. Biology is complicated. But the data still points at obesity playing a significant role in poor health outcomes at a population level.


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## SEL (28 July 2022)

shortstuff99 said:



			Type 2 diabetes can also be caused by pancreatic cancer, and that is often ignored in favour of diet changes or talking about size until it is too late.

Anyway bit off topic sorry!
		
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We tend to separate diabetes caused by pancreatic cancer or other forms of pancreas damage on the diabetes forums - they get their own section


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## Goldenstar (28 July 2022)

90 % of people with type two diabetes are overweight or obese .


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## Errin Paddywack (28 July 2022)

Michael's cirrhosis and probable liver cancer was almost certainly caused by long term obesity.  As was his heart attack and his joints suffered too.


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## shortstuff99 (28 July 2022)

SEL said:



			We tend to separate diabetes caused by pancreatic cancer or other forms of pancreas damage on the diabetes forums - they get their own section 

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I do mention it now as a Dr missed it in my next door neighbour and now he has end stage cancer as they told him it was 'just' type 2 diabetes and it wasn't.


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## Goldenstar (28 July 2022)

We need to just be able to say not only does being fat kill you early it also impairs the life you have .
And one of those impairments is that you can’t do things you might wish to like ride a horse of a certain size .


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## Neversaydie (28 July 2022)

Goldenstar said:



			We need to just be able to say not only does being fat kill you early it also impairs the life you have .
And one of those impairments is that you can’t do things you might wish to like ride a horse of a certain size .
		
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So does insensitivity but that’s a different kind of death sentence I suppose so we can all stay hush hush on that one 🤫 I personally have no issues as I’m not too heavy for my horse nor do I feel the need to justify it, however what I don’t like is how frank people are being with an issue that yes is emotive on so many levels but may have never affected them or been something they have ever really had to worry about.

Extemely heavy people perhaps shouldn’t be riding for their good and of course the horses welfare, falling off when less than fit probably hurts more than someone more fit doing the same, however it’s all well and good making statements like the above to faceless people on this forum but many of you would balk at walking up to a heavier person and stating it I’d wager. I know I’d feel very uncomfortable about it even though I agree.


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## TPO (28 July 2022)

Neversaydie said:



			So does insensitivity but that’s a different kind of death sentence I suppose so we can all stay hush hush on that one 🤫 I personally have no issues as I’m not too heavy for my horse nor do I feel the need to justify it, however what I don’t like is how frank people are being with an issue that yes is emotive on so many levels but may have never affected them or been something they have ever really had to worry about.

Extemely heavy people perhaps shouldn’t be riding for their good and of course the horses welfare, falling off when less than fit probably hurts more than someone more fit doing the same, however it’s all well and good making statements like the above to faceless people on this forum but many of you would balk at walking up to a heavier person and stating it I’d wager. I know I’d feel very uncomfortable about it even though I agree.
		
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But isn't that kinda the point being made? No one is completely oblivious to their weight and fitness levels, especially when it's towards the different ends of the spectrum.

In an ideal world there would be no need for anyone to be speaking to adults like RtG or Blog of a Cob because as adults who are responsible for their animals welfare they should acknowledge that they are too heavy to be riding [their current horses at least]. They promote themselves publicly so using them as examples.

It shouldn't be, or need to be, a nanny state. People should, and need to be, personally responsible *but* many put their want to ride for their reasons above their horse's welfare


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## Goldenstar (28 July 2022)

Well I have no trouble being frank about it, being fat is awful and when I am fat I hate it .
I know it’s bad for me I know it’s blights my life when I am too heavy and I don’t see any reason not to be very Frank about its a issue I have a deep and intimate relationship with .


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## Barton Bounty (28 July 2022)

Neversaydie said:



			So does insensitivity but that’s a different kind of death sentence I suppose so we can all stay hush hush on that one 🤫 I personally have no issues as I’m not too heavy for my horse nor do I feel the need to justify it, however what I don’t like is how frank people are being with an issue that yes is emotive on so many levels but may have never affected them or been something they have ever really had to worry about.

Extemely heavy people perhaps shouldn’t be riding for their good and of course the horses welfare, falling off when less than fit probably hurts more than someone more fit doing the same, however it’s all well and good making statements like the above to faceless people on this forum but many of you would balk at walking up to a heavier person and stating it I’d wager. I know I’d feel very uncomfortable about it even though I agree.
		
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I wasnt aware there were so many md’s on the forum 😂😂


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## Winters100 (28 July 2022)

Neversaydie said:



			however what I don’t like is how frank people are being with an issue that yes is emotive on so many levels but may have never affected them or been something they have ever really had to worry about.
.
		
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I am not really sure that there are that many people who have never had to think about their weight and make adjustments, it is not really the case among my friends and family.  Speaking personally it rather irritates me when I refuse cake or biscuits and get told things along the lines of 'oh go on, don't be such a misery, you're lucky - you don't need to worry about your weight'. I suspect most people who are not overweight are like me and have to work very hard at being disciplined about food intake and exercise, and often go to bed hungry as a result.  

I don't think it is insensitive of Goldenstar to state what we all know, that obesity is causing health problems and earlier deaths for many.  Losing weight is difficult, and I really feel for people who struggle in this area, but I do not think that the answer is to pretend that being overweight does not have health risks, or that there may not be an impact upon other areas of life, such as the ability to ride horses.  It does not mean that people are any less valued whatever weight they are, but in the context of this discussion animal welfare simply must come first.


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## Goldenstar (28 July 2022)

Pointing out that there are many horrible health issues linked to obesity is nothing to do with not valuing an individual as they are .
We can’t sit about watching this waiting for the state to save us .
I don’t think the NHS has the way or the will or the energy to tackle this .
I watched an you tube documentary presented by an uk obesity doctor the message was surgery is the way out of this .
It’s nonsense intervention needs to be much much earlier when people are a stone overweight by the time surgery is considered a person has damaged themselves 
We have to tackle it one at a time ourselves .
64% of adults in the uk are overweight or obese .

However it’s not all bad , a GP recently told my OH he had gone over to the porker side during lockdown and told him to look up the keto diet and to check in three months good for that doctor .


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## TPO (28 July 2022)

Winters100 said:



			It does not mean that people are any less valued whatever weight they are, but in the context of this discussion animal welfare simply must come first.
		
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Exactly. This is simply about horse welfare.

I don't care what weight anyone else is; not my circus not my monkeys. However when excess weight is put on a horse, who has no voice, and their welfare isn't the no.1 priority, then I think it's a valid discussion. Even more so considering how common and normalised it is becoming in real life, on social media and with extremely plus sized riding clothing.


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## Goldenstar (28 July 2022)

Actually horse clothing is a funny old business .
Suitable stuff for the slim and stuff for the plus sized but a sort of funny void in the middle .
Many curvy people who are not overweight are not the right shape for the clothes on offer .
ETA better to say the clothes are not the right shape for the people .


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## Neversaydie (28 July 2022)

Barton Bounty said:



			I wasnt aware there were so many md’s on the forum 😂😂
		
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Neither did I TBF 😂 I’m just amazed at some replies stating we should just come out and call people fat and tell them to get it sorted. I’m not thin by any stretch of anyones imagination but I’m fit I’m just curved in the places that look worse when your a horse rider 🤣


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## ycbm (28 July 2022)

Neversaydie said:



			.......  it’s all well and good making statements like the above to faceless people on this forum but many of you would balk at walking up to a heavier person and stating it I’d wager. I know I’d feel very uncomfortable about it even though I agree.
		
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It doesn't take a genius to read the thread title and realise the content might trigger you if you are overweight and sensitive about it. It's optional to open it.   There's no comparison with walking up to anyone and saying it..



Neversaydie said:



			I’m just amazed at some replies stating we should just come out and call people fat and tell them to get it sorted.
		
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Could you point out to me where anyone has said this?


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## Fruitcake (28 July 2022)

I haven’t commented before as I have no experience of struggling with weight. I’m aware that I’m lucky in that I don’t really need to watch what I eat and always stay the same. I’m well below the 15% (with tack, boots etc) of my smallest horse’s ideal weight (a 13hh cob). If, however, I wasn’t, I wouldn’t ride him. It’s as simple as that. 

I understand weight is an emotive issue. I’ve experienced snide comments from the other side, with people blatantly saying to my face that I obviously have an ED as I couldn’t possibly be “so skinny” naturally. Body positivity is all well and good, but I do think that, when animal welfare comes into the equation, that has to be given priority. Pointing out that someone is too heavy for a horse isn’t body shaming; it’s supporting animal welfare and I really think we need to stop turning a blind eye to this.


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## Goldenstar (28 July 2022)

The whole point of this is to say it to ourselves it’s not mostly about saying it to others .
I am not preaching this from the skinny form of a perfect 10 .
Until I let go of all the nonsense things that are said about being overweight by others and by myself until I decided I was not a passenger on the bus I was the bus ,until I decided I had to change .
Until I stood in a supermarket one day and thought no , no more you can change this  or go down trying .
No one help you more than you can help yourself .


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## Goldenstar (28 July 2022)

Fruitcake said:



			I haven’t commented before as I have no experience of struggling with weight. I’m aware that I’m lucky in that I don’t really need to watch what I eat and always stay the same. I’m well below the 15% (with tack, boots etc) of my smallest horse’s ideal weight (a 13hh cob). If, however, I wasn’t, I wouldn’t ride him. It’s as simple as that. 

I understand weight is an emotive issue. I’ve experienced snide comments from the other side, with people blatantly saying to my face that I obviously have an ED as I couldn’t possibly be “so skinny” naturally. Body positivity is all well and good, but I do think that, when animal welfare comes into the equation, that has to be given priority. Pointing out that someone is too heavy for a horse isn’t body shaming; it’s supporting animal welfare and I really think we need to stop turning a blind eye to this.
		
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I think most people who have said unkind things about your slim size are in all likelihood very envious .


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## Cortez (28 July 2022)

The UK is I believe, the fattest country in Europe? Also one of the unhealthiest, however that is measured; the two things are likely to be related. When, I wonder, did being overweight become normalised....as in "slim" used to be normal (look at any photograph or newsreel footage from pre mid 1980's), and now it's not.


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## Neversaydie (28 July 2022)

ycbm said:



			It doesn't take a genius to read the thread title and realise the content might trigger you if you are overweight and sensitive about it. It's optional to open it.   There's no comparison with walking up to anyone and saying it..




Could you point out to me where anyone has said this?
		
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it is essentially what people are wanting done at shows and competitions. I agree with the welfare points, I’m not triggered at all as it doesn’t apply to me. I’m just wondering out loud at the frankness displayed here that wouldn’t be in the real world so to speak. Just my musings on reading 18 pages worth of thread.  I know if I was stewarding something and had to approach someone, even on the basis of horse welfare, that they were too fat/heavy/insert word of choice here looking for their horse, that regardless of the rightness of it,  I would feel down right horrid as a human being. I’ve had to shout at riders before when helping at shows for various things and not thought twice of it however this, well, uncomfortable would be understating how i feel about it. Each to their own I suppose. I have some really big melons (winking here 🤣) but I think they shrink to approach someone about this issue.


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## Fruitcake (28 July 2022)

Neversaydie said:



			it is essentially what people are wanting done at shows and competitions. I agree with the welfare points, I’m not triggered at all as it doesn’t apply to me. I’m just wondering out loud at the frankness displayed here that wouldn’t be in the real world so to speak. Just my musings on reading 18 pages worth of thread.  I know if I was stewarding something and had to approach someone, even on the basis of horse welfare, that they were too fat/heavy/insert word of choice here looking for their horse, that regardless of the rightness of it,  I would feel down right horrid as a human being. I’ve had to shout at riders before when helping at shows for various things and not thought twice of it however this, well, uncomfortable would be understating how i feel about it. Each to their own I suppose. I have some really big melons (winking here 🤣) but I think they shrink to approach someone about this issue.
		
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I think this is largely the issue. It’s awkward and so tends to be just brushed under the carpet. We wouldn’t turn a blind eye to any other welfare issue at a show, so this shouldn’t be any different.


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## Winters100 (28 July 2022)

Neversaydie said:



			it is essentially what people are wanting done at shows and competitions. I agree with the welfare points, I’m not triggered at all as it doesn’t apply to me. I’m just wondering out loud at the frankness displayed here that wouldn’t be in the real world so to speak. Just my musings on reading 18 pages worth of thread.  I know if I was stewarding something and had to approach someone, even on the basis of horse welfare, that they were too fat/heavy/insert word of choice here looking for their horse, that regardless of the rightness of it,  I would feel down right horrid as a human being. I’ve had to shout at riders before when helping at shows for various things and not thought twice of it however this, well, uncomfortable would be understating how i feel about it. Each to their own I suppose. I have some really big melons (winking here 🤣) but I think they shrink to approach someone about this issue.
		
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Too heavy for the horse they are riding does not necessarily mean fat. If people feel that they have too much body fat that is their own concern, but just as someone carrying a lot of muscle needs to have an appropriate horse so does someone with a higher % of body fat.  There have been many ideas raised about how to enforce rules tactfully, but it seems that relying on people to choose an appropriate horse without some enforcement is not working. You say that you would feel horrid to approach someone, and so would I, but I would feel even more horrid watching some poor horse carrying a rider who was too heavy.

I do not consider myself to be carrying too much body fat, but if I was riding in a small pony at a show I would expect to be pulled aside and told that it is not appropriate. Why should it be any different for those who do feel that they are above their ideal weight?


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## PapaverFollis (28 July 2022)

Proper, transparent procedure would take any embarrassment out of it.

"Numbers 12, 25 and 6 you have been randomly selected for welfare checks, please report to the steward's tent before attending your classes"

"I'm sorry ma'am but you are over the allowed weight for your horse and I cannot allow you compete here today.  Here is your money back. My apologies but those are the rules that you agreed to when you entered."

Yes people would be annoyed but noone would have to go around calling anyone else fat.


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## Regandal (28 July 2022)

Neversaydie said:



			we should just come out and call people fat and tell them to get it sorted.
		
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They don’t have to get anything sorted. Just don’t get on a horse that can’t take their weight.


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## Neversaydie (28 July 2022)

Regandal said:



			They don’t have to get anything sorted. Just don’t get on a horse that can’t take their weight.
		
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Appreciating the selected quoting of my post, sarcasm hopefully evident, I had taken (perhaps incorrectly now from your post) that part of the idea behind this was to educate people and inevitably improve horse and rider welfare and experience, albeit a rather minor take,  (again perhaps incorrectly) regardless of how much of an uncomfortable subject it may be for all involved, by restricting competition access. The above mentioned process would be ideal but how many shows realistically would be ballsy enough to do it without some official backing from a competition or veterinary body.


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## honetpot (28 July 2022)

PapaverFollis said:



			Proper, transparent procedure would take any embarrassment out of it.

"Numbers 12, 25 and 6 you have been randomly selected for welfare checks, please report to the steward's tent before attending your classes"

"I'm sorry ma'am but you are over the allowed weight for your horse and I cannot allow you compete here today.  Here is your money back. My apologies but those are the rules that you agreed to when you entered."

Yes people would be annoyed but noone would have to go around calling anyone else fat.
		
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Most show stewards are volunteers, they have no real authority, if it's a well run show the show organisers have procedures and show ground rules in place, a chief steward, with stewards briefings, but often that is not the case.
They would have to be trained to weigh the horse, weigh the rider, and potentially weigh the tack, and calibrated scales, if you use a judge that is an extra judge to provide. Looking at the judges I have worked with most want a pleasant day out, not have potentially a very confrontational situation, before they even go in the ring.
  It would be far more effective if, in the 'judge's opinion', over fat animals and people were marked down, and perhaps like dressage judges assessments and discussions on what does fat look like, and what does someone who is under horsed look like, because a lot of the animals I see at large shows are 'bull fat', with a gutter. There are more over weight animals than riders who look over large on their ride.


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## PapaverFollis (28 July 2022)

My point was not about the exact procedure.   Just that it could be done in a way that doesn't involve anyone shouting "oi fatty get off that horse" over the tannoy.


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## Sheep (28 July 2022)

Really not related to horse sports - but for anyone interested in understanding more about the complex relationships between weight, health and the statistics presented around it - the podcast Maintenance Phase is fantastic.


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## SEL (29 July 2022)

PapaverFollis said:



			My point was not about the exact procedure.   Just that it could be done in a way that doesn't involve anyone shouting "oi fatty get off that horse" over the tannoy.
		
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Although that would be undeniably effective!!

I actually think you could start at entry forms.

"We take the welfare of horses very seriously and would respectfully ask that horse and rider combinations are of a sensible weight combination. Current guidance is that no horse should be carrying more than 20% of its healthy body weight including tack. If you are in any doubt as to whether you meet this criteria then please discuss with your vet. The organisers reserve the right to prevent any combinations who are not of a healthy weight competing"

(Or something like that before people get too picky about words, grammar etc...)


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## palo1 (29 July 2022)

SEL said:



			Although that would be undeniably effective!!

I actually think you could start at entry forms.

"We take the welfare of horses very seriously and would respectfully ask that horse and rider combinations are of a sensible weight combination. Current guidance is that no horse should be carrying more than 20% of its healthy body weight including tack. If you are in any doubt as to whether you meet this criteria then please discuss with your vet. The organisers reserve the right to prevent any combinations who are not of a healthy weight competing"

(Or something like that before people get too picky about words, grammar etc...)
		
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I wonder if/when insurance companies would start to request that riders could assure them at renewal that they were not more than 20% of the insured (ridden horse) weight.  Not everyone insures of course and insurance companies may feel they have too much to lose but if it became an industry standard in terms of welfare advice you might think that insurers would have to take that on too.


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## ester (29 July 2022)

PapaverFollis said:



			Proper, transparent procedure would take any embarrassment out of it.

"Numbers 12, 25 and 6 you have been randomly selected for welfare checks, please report to the steward's tent before attending your classes"

"I'm sorry ma'am but you are over the allowed weight for your horse and I cannot allow you compete here today.  Here is your money back. My apologies but those are the rules that you agreed to when you entered."

Yes people would be annoyed but noone would have to go around calling anyone else fat.
		
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Don't be silly, you know no one would get a refund 🤣


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## PapaverFollis (29 July 2022)

ester said:



			Don't be silly, you know no one would get a refund 🤣
		
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Lol. I know. I was trying to be nice. 😂


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## Thedarksideofthemoon (29 July 2022)

My daughters 13ish stone and rides her 15.2 horse. Would you say she looks too big?


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## PapaverFollis (29 July 2022)

Not really very fair to get people to comment on your daughter's weight from a photo like that is it?  Put a photo up of yourself by all means but posting a photo of your daughter for potential criticism on a thread of this type is kind of messed up.

It's not about "looking big" it's about being too heavy.

If she is more that 15% of the horse's weight then yes, she's likely too big.

When I was 13 stone myself and my saddle were too heavy for my 15.2hh horse.


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## Thedarksideofthemoon (29 July 2022)

I don’t think she’s more than 15%. She actually asked me to post it! I don’t ride but more than happy to post a pic of myself


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## Goldie's mum (29 July 2022)

Thedarksideofthemoon said:



			I don’t think she’s more than 15%. She actually asked me to post it! I don’t ride but more than happy to post a pic of myself 

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This is absolutely not about what anyone looks like. What does the horse weigh? What does your daughter weigh dressed for riding & holding her saddle?


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## PapaverFollis (29 July 2022)

13 stone is exactly 15% of a 550kg horse.  A 15.2hh is likely to be around 550kg.  With the saddle she's likely over 15% of his ideal weight.


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## Thedarksideofthemoon (29 July 2022)

I thought it was 20%? So do I tell my 15 year old she’s too big for her horse? Or that she needs to lose weight and possibly cause an ED?


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## ihatework (29 July 2022)

Okay thedarksideofthemoon, I’ll stick my neck out.

If I saw your daughter riding her lovely horse my immediate thought wouldn’t be that she was too big/heavy to be riding. As in, compared to what combinations you do see she certainly wouldn’t attract my attention.

That said, I’d be confident, the horse would be happier working if she were lighter. The other thing that strikes me is that the horse has a weak back conformation that will also impact carrying capacity.


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## Cortez (29 July 2022)

Thedarksideofthemoon said:



			I thought it was 20%? So do I tell my 15 year old she’s too big for her horse? Or that she needs to lose weight and possibly cause an ED?
		
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Yes, I would tell her.


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## Thedarksideofthemoon (29 July 2022)

I do think she could do with maybe being abit lighter, I’m hoping as she starts working with said horse/mucking out etc she will start to get fitter and healthier.
Horse has barely any muscle. She’s 10 but has done absolutely nothing for the last few years and we’ve only had her a few weeks.


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## ihatework (29 July 2022)

Thedarksideofthemoon said:



			I thought it was 20%? So do I tell my 15 year old she’s too big for her horse? Or that she needs to lose weight and possibly cause an ED?
		
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Well she has asked you to post so she is obviously conscious of it.
I don’t think it’s overly helpful to not address issues with teenagers, it’s how you go about it. 
She might be 13st now but this is likely to increase overtime, so I’d phrase it more as getting fit and healthy for herself as well as the horse


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## YorksG (29 July 2022)

The approach that is taken should surely depend on the age of the girl in the picture.


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## ihatework (29 July 2022)

Thedarksideofthemoon said:



			I do think she could do with maybe being abit lighter, I’m hoping as she starts working with said horse/mucking out etc she will start to get fitter and healthier.
Horse has barely any muscle. She’s 10 but has done absolutely nothing for the last few years and we’ve only had her a few weeks.
		
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Ok, an unfit 10 year old with no muscle needs to be treated like a youngster.

For ref over the last 2 years I’ve gone from 15st to 10.5st in order to back and ride away my 15.3 and 16.2hh 3yo’s both of whom are well conformed.


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## Thedarksideofthemoon (29 July 2022)

Tbh they last 6-8 weeks since having horse I do think she looks like she’s slimmed down abit.
Thing is she has Lipedema (like myself) so carries her weight on her legs. No amount of dieting or exercise will get rid of it sadly.


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## YorksG (29 July 2022)

I do think that people also forget that disordered eating is* not* just about anorexia and being too thin.


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## windand rain (29 July 2022)

At 15 it might be good for her to lose weight sensibly but unless she wants to she never will. Once both are fit if she still weighs 13st it would be beneficial for her to try diet changes or her weight will creep up. People are getting heavier and being lighter always makes it better for the horse. I am speaking from experience I was 17 st as a young woman. Stable weight was 13st and now as an old woman am trying to be healthy and am 10st7lbs. It has taken my lifetime to realise how much better I feel. At 15 you need to be tactful


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## ihatework (29 July 2022)

Thedarksideofthemoon said:



			Tbh they last 6-8 weeks since having horse I do think she looks like she’s slimmed down abit.
Thing is she has Lipedema (like myself) so carries her weight on her legs. No amount of dieting or exercise will get rid of it sadly.
		
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There is no easy answer unfortunately.
The more she does around the horses the fitter she will get.
I’d turn this into a project for both horse and rider and do a 50/50 combo of ridden and in-hand work. If she learns how to work on long lines it will help develop the horses back whilst increasing rider exercise!


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## PapaverFollis (29 July 2022)

So a parent discussing weight management with their child will cause an ED but posting a picture of them on the internet for potential criticism of their weight will be perfectly fine and not cause any issues at all?


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## Thedarksideofthemoon (29 July 2022)

Maybe she has lost abit lol. Il get her to weigh herself once she gets up.


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## southerncomfort (29 July 2022)

Regarding children, could the issue be presented more as ensuring that the child hasn't outgrown the pony, rather than being too heavy?

So it could be an all round check of height and weight of pony and height and weight of the child. 

I don't know how you can get round the issue of weighing children, it's a very difficult thing and would have to be done with the utmost sensitivity.

I suspect most parents are well aware when their child has outgrown/become too heavy for their pony but they can't afford a bigger mount.

It's all very difficult, but if these conversations were a routine part of horse welfare I don't think their would be as much sensitivity around it.

And I do think it's easy to get these conversations wrong. I used to attend an ED support group.  One of the men there had been told by his doctor that he needed to lose weight immediately before he started suffering severe health consequences.  He put the fear of God in to him and a few months later his doctor was referring him to an ED therapist because he was so thin and couldn't stop dieting even though he'd long ago reached his target weight.


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## PapaverFollis (29 July 2022)

Just stop it.

And by "it" I mean posting pictures of you child for strangers to judge!  Wow.


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## southerncomfort (29 July 2022)

Thedarksideofthemoon said:



			Maybe she has lost abit lol. Il get her to weigh herself once she gets up.
		
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I would strongly advise you to remove these pictures immediately.


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## Cortez (29 July 2022)

Surely "disordered eating" causes both underweight and overweight? Eating too much is just as disordered as anorexia?


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## ihatework (29 July 2022)

PapaverFollis said:



			Just stop it.

And by "it" I mean posting pictures of you child for strangers to judge!  Wow.
		
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I agree, this is really unfair on your child. It’s one thing to talk about strategies, generically, to help. But critiquing a teenager too closely is really unfair and potentially damaging.
You need to address this sensitively and privately at home.


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## Goldie's mum (29 July 2022)

Thedarksideofthemoon said:



			I thought it was 20%? So do I tell my 15 year old she’s too big for her horse? Or that she needs to lose weight and possibly cause an ED?
		
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You don't tell her anything - she's practically an adult.  I gather from another thread that the horse is on loan to you? This demonstrates the advantages of loaning, especially for people who are still growing. If , when you have done the maths, you both realize she is needing a bigger mount , then of course the horse should go back to its owner unless she makes a decision to lose some weight.


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## Thedarksideofthemoon (29 July 2022)

We are actually buying her, we were loaning but about to go through with buying her. 
horse is 15.2 so assumed she would last her a while? The bond they both have got together is amazing and would be a shame to not go through with the purchase because said horses temperament is absolutely amazing and they have both grown together in such a short period of time. Arghhh. Going to talk to daughter at some point. I think she’s aware she needs to stay or lose weight.


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## windand rain (29 July 2022)

Think it's time for the conversation if she wants that horse she should be willing to at least try and maintain her weight and perhaps reduce it sensibly. She is  probably not too heavy for now


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## Thedarksideofthemoon (29 July 2022)

Completely agree. Will talk to her once she’s up. I think she’s aware, we are quite an open family. Like I said she knows he has lipodema and sees how much I struggle so knows she has to keep her weight down. Hopefully the picking two wheelbarrows full of poo a day will help haha


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## Goldie's mum (29 July 2022)

I like the idea of both horse and rider getting fitter & putting muscle on by more ground work. 
The 20% & 15% are estimates & research is ongoing. Its said that 20 is for gentle hacking & 15 for more strenuous work but these are upper limits not ideals & its lower for a young or unfit horse and for an unfit or unbalanced rider.


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## southerncomfort (29 July 2022)

Cortez said:



			Surely "disordered eating" causes both underweight and overweight? Eating too much is just as disordered as anorexia?
		
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Absolutely. I have a family member who has been diagnosed with an over eating ED.  Unfortunately she doesn't appear to be receiving the support she needs at the moment.

I think a lot of us have a complicated relationship with food and self image.


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## McFluff (29 July 2022)

I've read this whole thread with the realisation that when it comes to weight limits, we treat inanimate kit better than we treat living, breathing horses.  Nobody argues with, or is offended by, a weight limit on a piece of sporting equipment, such as a climbing harness, a bicycle, a kayak, a ski binding, a bit of gymnastic kit etc. etc. - people seem to accept that physical weight (actual, not guessed based on 'look') is a very important part of the safety assessment.  So if a person is too heavy for a bit of kit, they either don't take part, or they use a stronger bit of kit.

Horses would actually benefit if we thought of their carrying capacity more akin to a bit of sporting kit.  The challenge of course is that we don't have an agreed way to calculate the 'limit' - and the 'safety' issue is actually the horses welfare, not an actual danger to the human.  This to me does not excuse our obligation to try and find a way to assess carrying capacity and then make sure people know what that is for each animal (or how to calculate it - which I suspect is why the 15-20% rule has been put forward), then make the same assessment on whether they should ride that horse as they would if they were assessing a bit of sports equipment.  At my work, as an example, we don't have to weigh climbers, nor 'guess' whether they 'look' too heavy - people take responsibility themselves.  Probably because kit failure would seriously injure or kill them.  The weight limit on the sports kit is not judging them, it is a very clear guide of 'this harness is rated to a weight limit of 80kg', so if the person weighs more than that, they know it doesn't suit them (and is likely to fail with severe consequences for them).

I wonder if the emotional issue here is that people are saying that person x 'looks' too big for horse y.  Whereas what should happen is that person x knows they weight xxkg, and that horse y can carry xxkg, so they are either OK or not.  And if not they don't ride horse y, instead they go and find horse z, who can carry xxkg.

The added complication with horses is saddle fit for the rider, so you could be an OK weight, but be the wrong shape to fit the saddle correctly, which then makes you not the right match for the horse.


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## Caol Ila (29 July 2022)

Do you work at a climbing wall, McFluff? I'm trying to remember if I had to state my weight when I joined my local wall. It was a long time ago (been a member there forever. I think so. I think there was a box for weight, and I wrote it. Taking some friends there this afternoon and signing them in as guests. I bet there will be a box for weight in the form. 

You're right - when it's a human safety issue, like a ski binding or a climbing harness, people just get on with it and ask.


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## ester (29 July 2022)

I’ve been over the weight limit on one of my bikes, but it didn’t mind at least.


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## McFluff (29 July 2022)

Caol Ila said:



			Do you work at a climbing wall, McFluff? I'm trying to remember if I had to state my weight when I joined my local wall. It was a long time ago (been a member there forever. I think so. I think there was a box for weight, and I wrote it. Taking some friends there this afternoon and signing them in as guests. I bet there will be a box for weight in the form.

You're right - when it's a human safety issue, like a ski binding or a climbing harness, people just get on with it and ask.
		
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Yes - or rather a company that has a climbing arena (I don't work directly in the arena as I'm in 'head office') - and yes, weight is part of the initial assessment to climb.  

Fair point Ester - I'm sure you'd have taken it on the chin if your bike had broken.   

And I suppose that's my point, a bit of kit doesn't 'hurt' when it breaks.  It just breaks and is either fixed or replaced.  We shouldn't do this to a living being...


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## PapaverFollis (29 July 2022)

I wrote and deleted a similar post a little while back McFluff (the conversation changed course before I posted) and completely agree.  If horses became dangerous to human riders when overloaded we'd soon discover our ability to talk about rider weight...  but because it is just damaging to the horse then we have to be very sensitive and careful.

I understand the issues around eating disorders but contend that it is a trade off.  Possible risk of triggering ED in a few vs horse welfare and possible risk of losing equestrianism altogether if we start to lose our social licence because people don't like to see over-laden horses...  ALSO the risk of people just being overweight and not understanding that it is not healthy AND straining the health care systems  etc etc.  Sometimes there is no perfect solution.   It seems to me that bring able to discuss weight in neutral way and there being adequate mental health support for those who go on to struggle as a result would be ideal.  But "adequate mental health support" is like saying "magical sparkly unicorn"

I understand the tension and concern.

To be honest, as someone has already said, I don't think the root of ED is necessarily actual concerns about weight and food. It seems to me to often be about fear and control.


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## Sussexbythesea (29 July 2022)

For me this whole discussion is conflating being overweight for one’s “body type” (for want of a better description) and being too heavy for the horse one is riding. The two are not synonymous.

if you’re overweight for your body type then as long as you’re not too heavy for the horse it’s nobody’s business. I do though agree that at some point if you’re very overweight then you can’t possibly mount or ride in a way that would be comfortable for any horse. There seems to be a fixation on being fat or obese when in reality a fit man could weight equally as much or a muscular fit woman for that matter.

There is still also the overall feeling that I’m picking up is that being overweight is because you are a bad person or lazy or have some other terrible character flaw. The reality is that many people spend their lives dieting and trying to change their habits. I’ve been dieting on and off since my late teens (now 52) and I wish I were as fat now as I thought I was back then! (I’m currently 4 stone heavier) I get on top of it am successful in keeping it off and then gradually I fall back into bad patterns through stress and life issues usually, now peri menopause is the main issue. Fortunately I still fit in 15% rule though currently about 3-4 stone overweight. I think I’d still be hung drawn and quartered by some people on here though.


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## Tiddlypom (29 July 2022)

McFluff said:



			The added complication with horses is saddle fit for the rider, so you could be an OK weight, but be the wrong shape to fit the saddle correctly, which then makes you not the right match for the horse.
		
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This is a side on pic from the Sue Dyson pilot study, showing the four different riders in the same saddle on the same horse.

https://beva.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/eve.13085

Only the light and moderate riders (first and second left) were judged to fit in the saddle.

Also note that the 'heavy' rider (second from the right) in the study looks to be fairly slim, although taller. This is all about what weight a horse should be expected to carry, not whether someone looks slim or not. Those of us who are taller have a smaller pool of suitable horses to choose from.



Ester, cycles tend not to give advance warning of finding their rider too heavy by giving you shorter strides, they work fine or they collapse under you!


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## ponynutz (29 July 2022)

Yes, please don't post pictures of your child on a forum. 

Also broach the subject very carefully. I understand you want to help her but being made to feel your weight is a bad thing is not the way - that happened to me and it's something I've struggled with for years because of it (but the other way around). 

@Sussexbythesea exactly this - you've put my point much better than I did.


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## palo1 (29 July 2022)

Sussexbythesea said:



			For me this whole discussion is conflating being overweight for one’s “body type” (for want of a better description) and being too heavy for the horse one is riding. The two are not synonymous.

if you’re overweight for your body type then as long as you’re not too heavy for the horse it’s nobody’s business. I do though agree that at some point if you’re very overweight then you can’t possibly mount or ride in a way that would be comfortable for any horse. There seems to be a fixation on being fat or obese when in reality a fit man could weight equally as much or a muscular fit woman for that matter.

There is still also the overall feeling that I’m picking up is that being overweight is because you are a bad person or lazy or have some other terrible character flaw. The reality is that many people spend their lives dieting and trying to change their habits. I’ve been dieting on and off since my late teens (now 52) and I wish I were as fat now as I thought I was back then! (I’m currently 4 stone heavier) I get on top of it am successful in keeping it off and then gradually I fall back into bad patterns through stress and life issues usually, now peri menopause is the main issue. Fortunately I still fit in 15% rule though currently about 3-4 stone overweight. I think I’d still be hung drawn and quartered by some people on here though.
		
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See I haven't read the thread at all like that and have understood that most posters happily accept that we all come in different shapes and sizes and as long as that isn't causing difficulty for our horses, then that is entirely immaterial.  What is important is equine welfare.  I think the discussion has been quite open and understanding of people's sensitivity around the way they feel about their bodies (including potentially overweight ones) but the real direction has been about discussing the fair and ethical weight a horse should carry and how to promote that.   There is an issue with obesity in our population which likely means that many of us (including me) would ideally weigh less and that would be even better for our horses.  And ourselves.  Even if we are under 15% of our riding horse's weight.    I think too, it is difficult to find a comfortable place to talk about weight issues because of the way that the way we look has become so loaded with the value we have in this society.  That is very difficult to escape from.  I am sure we have ALL felt uncomfortable about our self image at some point.  I guess if you are too heavy for sporting equipment that is one thing, but horses and our involvement with them goes deeper really as well as involving the welfare and experiences of a living, breathing, intelligent and emotional creature.  I think as we love our horses we all find it hard to see the dissonance in doing things with them that contradict the best interests of one or both parties.  There are several ways of doing mental gymnastics around keeping and 'using' animals.   The weight at which we ride is one thing that we might be able to quantify though.  I don't get the sense that anyone posting on this thread feels that being overweight indicates being a bad person or having a character flaw; it is much, much more about wider society, the value we have given to ideas like 'choice', 'variety' and 'luxury' - especialiy in relation to food.  I love all those things, please don't think I am suggesting some form of neo-puritanism but we have to negotiate those in relation to our own health as well as that of our horses.  For some it will be easy, for others (and I write as one of those!) it is much harder.


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## Winters100 (29 July 2022)

PapaverFollis said:



			Just stop it.

And by "it" I mean posting pictures of you child for strangers to judge!  Wow.
		
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Have to say that I agree with this. I have no problem with talking to my children about weight issues, they need to see it as a normal thing that everyone has to manage. I have on occasions seen one gaining a little extra fat and have discussed it with them, sometimes as a result of them raising it, and sometimes me.  This is not to shame them, but to help them to recognise the difference between increased body fat and normal growth, and to be able to support them in rectifying the issue in a healthy way.  Since they have never been left to pile on the pounds it is enough just to cut back a little and to keep the same weight while they grow, thus reducing their body fat.  They are not embarrassed about this, and they have not developed any sort of disordered eating.  Surely it is better to control these things and to discuss them with your child while they are still in a normal weight range than to wait until they are overweight, because a child who has not got to the overweight stage will be much likely be less sensitive about it, and it is much more quickly and easily solved.  That having been said I would _never_ post pictures of them for others to comment. It also seems unnecessary as anyone reading this thread can see the general opinion that 15% with tack is the top limit, so how she looks is immaterial.


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## southerncomfort (29 July 2022)

PapaverFollis said:



			I wrote and deleted a similar post a little while back McFluff (the conversation changed course before I posted) and completely agree.  If horses became dangerous to human riders when overloaded we'd soon discover our ability to talk about rider weight...  but because it is just damaging to the horse then we have to be very sensitive and careful.

I understand the issues around eating disorders but contend that it is a trade off.  Possible risk of triggering ED in a few vs horse welfare and possible risk of losing equestrianism altogether if we start to lose our social licence because people don't like to see over-laden horses...  ALSO the risk of people just being overweight and not understanding that it is not healthy AND straining the health care systems  etc etc.  Sometimes there is no perfect solution.   It seems to me that bring able to discuss weight in neutral way and there being adequate mental health support for those who go on to struggle as a result would be ideal.  But "adequate mental health support" is like saying "magical sparkly unicorn"

I understand the tension and concern.

To be honest, as someone has already said, I don't think the root of ED is necessarily actual concerns about weight and food. It seems to me to often be about fear and control.
		
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It can be either or both. And it can also be about self image and self esteem.  It's not something I would wish on my worst enemy.

HOWEVER, it doesn't mean that conversations around healthy weight and horse welfare should be avoided.


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## Cortez (29 July 2022)

Having grown up in a family that had no problem whatsoever in saying "you're getting a bit porky, don't eat so much" I find all this tiptoeing around, not saying the fat word, not wanting to tell people they're overweight, terrified of saying anything in case it triggers anorexia, fat shaming, body positivity, etc., etc., quite bemusing. Being fat IS NOT NORMAL, it's not a positive thing, and you shouldn't feel good about it. Nor should you feel ashamed of course, but it is something that you can and should do something about. And if you are too fat to ride a particular horse, then you most certainly should not ride it and your feelings about the matter are pretty much inconsequential. I've never been particularly fat, I am a normal weight for my height, so no, I don't have much insight into how all this makes overweight people feel, but I have often had conversations with people who were fat and too unfit to ride their horses - and I've never lost a student because of it.


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## palo1 (29 July 2022)

Cortez said:



			Having grown up in a family that had no problem whatsoever in saying "you're getting a bit porky, don't eat so much" I find all this tiptoeing around, not saying the fat word, not wanting to tell people they're overweight, terrified of saying anything in case it triggers anorexia, fat shaming, body positivity, etc., etc., quite bemusing. Being fat IS NOT NORMAL, it's not a positive thing, and you shouldn't feel good about it. Nor should you feel ashamed of course, but it is something that you can and should do something about. And if you are too fat to ride a particular horse, then you most certainly should not ride it and your feelings about the matter are pretty much inconsequential. I've never been particularly fat, I am a normal weight for my height, so no, I don't have much insight into how all this makes overweight people feel, but I have often had conversations with people who were fat and too unfit to ride their horses - and I've never lost a student because of it.
		
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Phew!! Thank you for saying this.  I have been fat.  I have been fat and confident and fat and crippled with shame.  I felt much better when no-one tiptoed round it but had a straight conversation that was both totally clear and compassionate.  Not verbatim but effectively 'You are overweight and it is making you miserable as well as vulnerable to illness.  Would you like to do something about it?'  There were lots of reasons I put on weight but only one 'how'.  

I have to have really difficult conversations with people about other things and the one thing I know people value is clear honesty.  We need that more.


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## Sussexbythesea (29 July 2022)

palo1 said:



			See I haven't read the thread at all like that and have understood that most posters happily accept that we all come in different shapes and sizes and as long as that isn't causing difficulty for our horses, then that is entirely immaterial.  What is important is equine welfare.  I think the discussion has been quite open and understanding of people's sensitivity around the way they feel about their bodies (including potentially overweight ones) but the real direction has been about discussing the fair and ethical weight a horse should carry and how to promote that.   There is an issue with obesity in our population which likely means that many of us (including me) would ideally weigh less and that would be even better for our horses.  And ourselves.  Even if we are under 15% of our riding horse's weight.    I think too, it is difficult to find a comfortable place to talk about weight issues because of the way that the way we look has become so loaded with the value we have in this society.  That is very difficult to escape from.  I am sure we have ALL felt uncomfortable about our self image at some point.  I guess if you are too heavy for sporting equipment that is one thing, but horses and our involvement with them goes deeper really as well as involving the welfare and experiences of a living, breathing, intelligent and emotional creature.  I think as we love our horses we all find it hard to see the dissonance in doing things with them that contradict the best interests of one or both parties.  There are several ways of doing mental gymnastics around keeping and 'using' animals.   The weight at which we ride is one thing that we might be able to quantify though.  I don't get the sense that anyone posting on this thread feels that being overweight indicates being a bad person or having a character flaw; it is much, much more about wider society, the value we have given to ideas like 'choice', 'variety' and 'luxury' - especialiy in relation to food.  I love all those things, please don't think I am suggesting some form of neo-puritanism but we have to negotiate those in relation to our own health as well as that of our horses.  For some it will be easy, for others (and I write as one of those!) it is much harder.
		
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palo1 said:



			Phew!! Thank you for saying this.  I have been fat.  I have been fat and confident and fat and crippled with shame.  I felt much better when no-one tiptoed round it but had a straight conversation that was both totally clear and compassionate.  Not verbatim but effectively 'You are overweight and it is making you miserable as well as vulnerable to illness.  Would you like to do something about it?'  There were lots of reasons I put on weight but only one 'how'. 

I have to have really difficult conversations with people about other things and the one thing I know people value is clear honesty.  We need that more.
		
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So you had no idea until someone else pointed it out that you were fat?


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## Winters100 (29 July 2022)

Sussexbythesea said:



			So you had no idea until someone else pointed it out that you were fat?
		
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I do not believe that Palo was saying that she was not aware before, simply that someone addressing it in a straightforward way highlighted the issue and pushed her to do something, or that it enabled her to accept help.  It is really difficult for many people to manage their weight, and I am with Palo on this, it can be really helpful for people to point it out, especially at an early stage when we can be in danger of reaching for a glass of wine and ignoring it rather than going out to do some exercise.


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## palo1 (29 July 2022)

Sussexbythesea said:



			So you had no idea until someone else pointed it out that you were fat?
		
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Of course I knew. I had tried accepting that physical reality and working towards a far better sense of self acceptance but that didn't take away the physical impact of being fat. I needed someone to be straightforward and clear for me as I had got into a right muddle about food, self image etc etc.  I wasn't ill nor did I have an eating disorder but I completely ignored my physical reality in favour of other feelings and ideas -mostly around food, but also around motherhood and other things.  I had taken my eye off the ball of my weight and self care.  I needed help and thankfully my OH was also my best friend and my clearest, most honest critic.  That isn't everyone's experience I know and dealing with any physical issue is difficult.  I really understand that.  I just wanted to say that having someone be really up for that degree of clarity and honesty about numbers on a scale helped me.  That is why I think it would be useful for everyone to have some numbers to work with around being a suitable weight to ride any particular horse.  I think that clarity and direction are useful but that is just my experience.


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## ponynutz (29 July 2022)

Cortez said:



			Having grown up in a family that had no problem whatsoever in saying "you're getting a bit porky, don't eat so much" I find all this tiptoeing around, not saying the fat word, not wanting to tell people they're overweight, terrified of saying anything in case it triggers anorexia, fat shaming, body positivity, etc., etc., quite bemusing. Being fat IS NOT NORMAL, it's not a positive thing, and you shouldn't feel good about it. Nor should you feel ashamed of course, but it is something that you can and should do something about. And if you are too fat to ride a particular horse, then you most certainly should not ride it and your feelings about the matter are pretty much inconsequential. I've never been particularly fat, I am a normal weight for my height, so no, I don't have much insight into how all this makes overweight people feel, but I have often had conversations with people who were fat and too unfit to ride their horses - and I've never lost a student because of it.
		
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It's not that that's the problem. It's the way it's said and the fact that it really can sneak up on people. Metabolism slowing down during puberty, stress eating, an eating disorder, an injury, mental health issues, medication changes can all contribute as can so many other things. So please just be KIND.

Telling fat people they're fat is still not nice, just as telling a skinny person they're skinny isn't nice. Encouraging them to eat the right things and exercise is the way to do it, not, 'You're getting chubby' which is really quite rude. Human decency.

No, being fat isn't normal but it's not an excuse to be mean to somebody. 'You're unhealthy and putting yourself at risk, shall we sort it out?' said ESPECIALLY from a parent to a child is much nicer and more constructive and doesn't lead to sneaking food which can, in turn, turn into a binge eating disorder, OR anorexia/bulimia.

Put it this way - I agree with Ricky Gervais that, 'fat' is just an adjective. But, 'fat' is also coupled up with other words in most people's minds (especially women) with, 'ugly', 'unlikeable', 'the outcast'. Just how being really skinny is associated with anorexia or drugs etc. It's unfortunate but true and we need to be sensitive to it. 

Also just because you're fat doesn't mean you're unfit


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## palo1 (29 July 2022)

palo1 said:



			Of course I knew. I had tried accepting that physical reality and working towards a far better sense of self acceptance but that didn't take away the physical impact of being fat. I needed someone to be straightforward and clear for me as I had got into a right muddle about food, self image etc etc.  I wasn't ill nor did I have an eating disorder but I completely ignored my physical reality in favour of other feelings and ideas -mostly around food, but also around motherhood and other things.  I had taken my eye off the ball of my weight and self care.  I needed help and thankfully my OH was also my best friend and my clearest, most honest critic.  That isn't everyone's experience I know and dealing with any physical issue is difficult.  I really understand that.  I just wanted to say that having someone be really up for that degree of clarity and honesty about numbers on a scale helped me.  That is why I think it would be useful for everyone to have some numbers to work with around being a suitable weight to ride any particular horse.  I think that clarity and direction are useful but that is just my experience.
		
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I just wanted to add, slightly painfully, but hopefully it might resonate with others that when I became a mum I adored my children but I had stopped working, had no real clue how to do 'big' parenting lol but wanted to create for my children a sense of warmth, comfort and plenty.  I loved cooking so I did that, creating lots of wonderful meals that we sat down to eat together.  We enjoyed that family time; my OH has  a really physical job and prior to this period in my life I had run around, had horses, done sport etc.  Suddenly though my focus was on 2 small children and a home.   Food was a lovely part of family life and it helped to create a certain sense of luxury when in fact we were pretty hard up. I liked the challenge of making lovely family meals, introducing my children to French, Italian and other food, cooking with them - the whole thing!  I enjoy wine too. 

You can imagine, that when I returned to work, still having 2 young children, I was pretty exhausted and work added no end of stress. Home was a wonderful place where I could relax with my hobby.  I had a horse who could easily carry me though I did consider my weight gain and his health.  But somehow I couldn't or wouldn't find a way out of this pattern.  Until my OH pointed out that we had made a lovely family, we had achieved a sense of home, of comfort and plenty, that the children were well adjusted food wise and that I had somewhat sacrificed my health along the way.  By then, food was really something of a retreat from the stresss of being a working mum who was also trying to forge a new identity whilst keeping the right bits of the old one.  I just needed some help to see things differently and have someone there to model and support a different 'good' life.   Sorry for the personal tale - I don't want people to think I am critical or don't understand how things can go awry with our health and self-care.  It was nothing to do with discipline; believe me, cooking 3 meals a day for a family takes discipline lol!!


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## Upthecreek (29 July 2022)

It seems like people who are too heavy or close to being too heavy for their horses are making the assumption that people who are not are naturally slim or find it really easy to maintain a healthy weight, when for most people that is not the case. I’d love to eat bigger portions and be able to eat foods I consider to be treats more often, but the simple fact is I can’t because if I do I will gain weight and that is not fair on my horses. It is not easy to maintain a healthy weight and for most people it requires exercising restraint where food is concerned. And before anyone jumps on me I do understand that some people find this easier than others, for a variety of reasons.

If young children are overweight the parents are at fault. Older children should not need to be told they are overweight. They need to be educated from an early age about nutrition and understand the relationship between diet and exercise to help them make healthy choices. It is also important that parents set a good example.


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## PapaverFollis (29 July 2022)

It was a comment from my equine physio that was in no way actually directed at me really that pushed me into getting back in control of my weight.  It was a general discussion a bit like this about what horses can carry but it made me realise I was probably too heavy.  I did the maths and realised that with my saddle I was pushing over 15%.  That's when I started running again but that only did so much.  And yeah, I could have done with someone telling me more directly that I was overweight.  I've always been pretty OK with my body and how I look and put weight on in "the right" places so still look quite slim so I hadn't quite realised how far I'd gone!  My doctor had hinted but personally I could have done with some frankness.

Anyway it was the extra realisation that my response to sugar was probably heading towards pre-diabetic, that the gut microbiome was a thing and that both of these seemed to feature in bad covid outcomes that really gave me a kick up the bum to DO SOMETHING.

I have to be honest I thought I had found The Answer in changing the food I was eating and that once I'd lost the weight I'd be able to go back to eating much more again as long as I kept to the principles with regards to avoiding blood sugar spikes and what not.  Actually I still have to eat a lot less than I would like to eat.  That's OK.  I can now skip meals without feeling woozy!  So at the moment I'm eating breakfast and lunch only.  I'm a little hungry at bedtime but a herbal tea goes down nicely.  I've realised I am a massive comfort eater and also eat compulsively in a really scary out of control way at times.  Maintaining my weight is never going to be easy. But going around a couple of stone overweight convincing myself I was fine and healthy was a but daft.  I didn't realise how much it was impeding me until it was gone. Same as I didn't realise how much it was affecting my horses until it was gone I suppose.

Regarding conflating being too heavy for a horse with carrying extra fat. I'm never going to judge people for extra fat.  I can say this over and over. I've been there, I understand it is hard, we are being screwed by the food industry and are whole lifestyle and society are just really rubbish for trying to be happy healthy humans in.  We should be sitting around mostly outside when the weather allows in large family groups doing simple, physical work and eating fresh unprocessed foods.  Instead we sit in our individual boxes all the time, looking at screens, doing sedentary stressful jobs, not connecting properly to other humans, eating highly processed empty food and drinking sugar.... it is kind of impossible.  

So yeah. No judgement here.

However a person who is too heavy for a horse is also very likely to be carrying extra fat so that is where the discussion gets cross-wired.

I know BMI is kind of not the be all and end all but as crude measure it does do something.  The heaviest a 6ft6 person can be and still have a BMI in the healthy range is 15 stone. At 6ft6 you're going to be butting up against issues with saddle fit etc anyway but you could still find a few horses that could do it. At a more average kind of place a 15.2hh 550kg horse can take up to 13 stone including tack... so 11stone of human? Anyone under 5ft7 who is over 11stone is overweight.  Which is why we end up talking about fat when we start talking about being too heavy for a horse I suppose.  Yes there will be really muscular people for whom BMI doesn't give a good representation of body fat but for the most part overweight people will be overweight from fat rather than muscle.

And personally when I talk about people being overweight or fat or unhealthy I'm seeing it as them being failed by society,  health systems, mental health provision, the food industry, education, modern life etc etc rather than some kind of moral failing of their own.  I also don't think you need to be slim to be happy or to feel goid about yourself or to be attractive to others and if people are happy then great.  But many people seem to not be happy with being overweight and not just because of any stigma attached to it.  But because it makes stuff that should be effortless, hard.  It is simply harder to go about in a bigger body than a smaller one and, speaking personally, it was such a relief to get rid of the extra weight I had accumulated. Just walking is easier, running even more noticeably easier, getting on and off the horse is easier, turning over in bed and putting my shoes on is easier....

I honestly don't even know what I'm trying to say.  It just all makes me kind of sad.  Society is kind of broken and we have all been failed and when we try to talk about it everyone gets really upset when actually we need to be pointing our fingers at the companies that are profiting from making people more and more unhealthy (whether they are actually overweight or not).


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## ycbm (29 July 2022)

ponynutz said:



			No, being fat isn't normal
		
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But it is.   Even being extremely fat isn't  uncommon enough to call abnormal.  Close to two thirds of the UK population are either overweight or obese (roughly half of each). We have lost sight,  as a society,  of what a truly healthy weight for most people is.

This normalisation of being overweight is a big part of the problem.  It makes it more difficult for people to realise that they personally have an issue when they look like so many other people around them.  It means,  among other things,  that anyone who really wants to try to lose weight is going to be surrounded by a number of people who will insist that they don't need to,  just when they need maximum support.

I was tipped into dieting by brothers who were allowed to bully me about being a slightly overweight 15/16 year old (I'd look thin today!). The illusion of control it gave me in a life filled with stress by poor parenting turned to full blown bulimia before it had a name.  But once I got it under control after a few years, I've never had a serious problem keeping a good weight,  so I have no idea how that feels,  and the older I get the more I empathise with those who do.

I used to think it was calories in vs calories burnt,  full stop, but it certainly ain't. If I could bottle what makes me eat less at the top end of size 12 (10 in M&S!)  instead of buy the next size up in clothes,  I'd give it free to everyone.
.


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## palo1 (29 July 2022)

ycbm said:



			But it is.   Even being extremely fat isn't  uncommon enough to call abnormal.  Close to two thirds of the UK population are either overweight or obese (roughly half of each). We have lost sight,  as a society,  of what a truly healthy weight for most people is.

This normalisation of being overweight is a big part of the problem.  It makes it more difficult for people to realise that they personally have an issue when they look like so many other people around them.  It means,  among other things,  that anyone who really wants to try to lose weight is going to be surrounded by a number of people who will insist that they don't need to,  just when they need maximum support.

I was tipped into dieting by brothers who were allowed to bully me about being a slightly overweight 15/16 year old (I'd look thin today!). The illusion of control it gave me in a life filled with stress by poor parenting turned to full blown bulimia before it had a name.  But once I got it under control after a few years, I've never had a serious problem keeping a good weight,  so I have no idea how that feels,  and the older I get the more I empathise with those who do.

I used to think it was calories in vs calories burnt,  full stop, but it certainly ain't. If I could bottle what makes me eat less at the top end of size 12 (10 in M&S!)  instead of buy the next size up in clothes,  I'd give it free to everyone.
.
		
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I don't think there is one answer!  I am generally a 10-12, I weigh myself every day now as a habit of looking after myself - like brushing my teeth, and having clothes that are the size I need to be really helps me know exactly where  my weight is.  Everyday weighing means I can take the good days with the bad and accept a degree of fluctuation without emotional panic!  I think aspects of those kinds of things where you are actively acknowledging your reality and doing stuff can be very therapeutic in the fight to stay a healthy size in a society that literally beseiges us with food, calories and unrealistic body images (at both ends of the spectrum).


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## ycbm (29 July 2022)

I recommend everyday weighing too. It lets you know that it's completely normal to be up 2 pounds one day for no reason you can put your finger on,  and there's no need to eat 3 Mars bars to make yourself feel better, it will go down tomorrow.


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## PapaverFollis (29 July 2022)

ycbm said:



			I used to think it was calories in vs calories burnt,  full stop, but it certainly ain't. If I could bottle what makes me eat less at the top end of size 12 (10 in M&S!)  instead of buy the next size up in clothes,  I'd give it free to everyone.
.
		
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It's probably your gut bacteria. 😂  you can bottle it but you might have difficulty convincing people to take it...


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## palo1 (29 July 2022)

As a further aside, and from a slightly historical point of view, the size of all food has become so much bigger in recent years, as well as far more available and socially 'encouraged'.  An old cookery book of mine gives a recipe for a cake for 8-10 servings, made with only 2 eggs and 4oz (100g) each of butter, sugar and flour.  A more contemporary book - like Nigella Lawson for eg suggests, for a comparable cake that you need almost 1/3 more of every ingredient to serve the same number and the icing/toppings are either doubled (on top and in the middle) or very much more extravagant in terms of ingredients.  My grandmothers idea of a piece of cake, maybe at the weekend, and my expectation of 'cake every day' only help to demonstrate this further!


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## Winters100 (29 July 2022)

palo1 said:



			As a further aside, and from a slightly historical point of view, the size of all food has become so much bigger in recent years, as well as far more available and socially 'encouraged'.  An old cookery book of mine gives a recipe for a cake for 8-10 servings, made with only 2 eggs and 4oz (100g) each of butter, sugar and flour.  A more contemporary book - like Nigella Lawson for eg suggests, for a comparable cake that you need almost 1/3 more of every ingredient to serve the same number and the icing/toppings are either doubled (on top and in the middle) or very much more extravagant in terms of ingredients.  My grandmothers idea of a piece of cake, maybe at the weekend, and my expectation of 'cake every day' only help to demonstrate this further!
		
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Same with dress sizes. I have recently found an old size 10 dress of mine from about 30 years ago that I could definitely not get into today, but now I am size 8-10 in 'new' sizes.


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## palo1 (29 July 2022)

Winters100 said:



			Same with dress sizes. I have recently found an old size 10 dress of mine from about 30 years ago that I could definitely not get into today, but now I am size 8-10 in 'new' sizes.
		
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Yes, me too; it is massively frustrating.  I was a size 12, slimmer than I am now after 2 children and a few years - now I am generally a size 10.  Am I fooled??? Am I heck...It is miserably misleading and ridiculous to gaslight people in that way but somehow fashion gets away with it (and I don't mean haute couture lol).


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## linka (30 July 2022)

palo1 said:



			Yes, me too; it is massively frustrating.  I was a size 12, slimmer than I am now after 2 children and a few years - now I am generally a size 10.  Am I fooled??? Am I heck...It is miserably misleading and ridiculous to gaslight people in that way but somehow fashion gets away with it (and I don't mean haute couture lol).
		
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I wish sizing* could be done mainly with body measurements. I find waist etc measurement far more enlightening and way, way less triggering.
*ETA women's sizing. Men's is already measurement-based.


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