# Sea The Stars.



## rosie fronfelen (3 October 2009)

will this great horse win tomorrow?? i do hope so- what do others think?


----------



## Nailed (3 October 2009)

what makes a horse 'great'?

Lou x


----------



## rosie fronfelen (3 October 2009)

well, he has won the Derby and 2000 Guineas this year, has an approx, stud value of 40 million and has so far notched up 2+ million in prize money. i call him pretty special- of course there have been many other "specials" i know having followed racing for 45 odd years.


----------



## lucretia (3 October 2009)

i think he is a very good horse and if he wins the Arc he will be equal with nashwan but for me the really really greats are few and far between, the ones that are so good they make other good horses look ordinary, act on any going, win whe n they should lose (although they are not nessecarily unbeaten every horse can have a bad day or no luck in running)
 Secretariat, Arkle, Mill Reef, Brigadier Gerrard, Seattle Slew, Miesque, Ouija Board, I know there are more but i am just going blank.  
the money and stud value has nothing to do with it really as that is all comparative.
  If Gone to France was still with us I bet she would have something to say on the matter!


----------



## rosie fronfelen (3 October 2009)

Rummy and Desert Orchid must never be forgotten either- for their racing and characters!!


----------



## lucretia (3 October 2009)

Red Rum was only 'great' round one course, so though we loved him and are unlikely ever to see his like again, he doesnt count as 'great'. 
   there have been plenty of threads in the past about Dessie but for me National Hunt was all over when i worked out there would not be another Arkle but Kauto is looking good so far but then so did Best Mate until fate took him from us. 
   As I said before there are many many many very good horses, some of which were champions but the really truly great are rare indeed.


----------



## rosie fronfelen (3 October 2009)

what is great in the end?


----------



## zero (3 October 2009)

Sea the Stars stud value must have a lot to do with his breeding. 

I would love to see him against a horse that makes him work for a win as up to now they've been very easy wins.

His dam is a true great horse. A fantastic race mare one of very few mares to win the Arc and has produced some very special racehorses.


----------



## sam1am (3 October 2009)

just looked up quiji boards first colt should be in training now,called voodooprince, anyone any info on him??hopefully he'll be pretty special


----------



## millitiger (3 October 2009)

'great' is surely a personal opinion?

i think Sea The Stars is great, and nobody can say i am wrong as it is my opinion!

he is the only horse that actually has me interested in flat racing; usually i only like NH but i think he is amazing to watch.


----------



## lucretia (3 October 2009)

you are entitled to your opinion but that is not what this thread was about. At this point sea the stars will not make a list of the 100 greatest racehorses. Tommorow night he might but he is no more deserving than nashwan   and less deserving than Mill Reef for example unless he stays in training.


----------



## Daffodil (3 October 2009)

He's got to be the best horse currently in training, and would love to see him win tomorrow.   Having said that, I'd also like Youmzain to get his nose in front.


----------



## lucretia (3 October 2009)

i just hope it is a fantastic race and i totally want sea the stars to win


----------



## TarrSteps (3 October 2009)

[ QUOTE ]

  If Gone to France was still with us I bet she would have something to say on the matter! 

[/ QUOTE ]

Hang on!  What happened to G to F???


----------



## lucretia (3 October 2009)

She has been a bad bad person and been banned for discussing the Franch horses. i think we should petition admin myself


----------



## TarrSteps (3 October 2009)

Ah.  I miss all the fun.


----------



## rosie fronfelen (3 October 2009)

bloody hell, i only asked what others thought of Sea The Stars! i didn't expect the onslaught!! everyone has an opinion i know and noone can disagree that this colt hasn't done well so far!!( having said that i suppose he'll lose tomorrow!!!)


----------



## lucretia (3 October 2009)

when you have been on here longer salimali, you will realise that you cant 'only ask' about a great many things!! we all love a good debate as long as it doesnt get nasty!!


----------



## rosie fronfelen (3 October 2009)

obviously i have alot to learn.my intentions were light hearted and my curiosity led the way as to others opinions o this great horse- no point bothering againif its to turn unpleasant, enough of that in my life without more unfortunately.


----------



## stolensilver (3 October 2009)

Good post zero.  Sea the Stars dam, Urban Sea was possibly the best race broodmare ever. Bless her, she died this year at the age of 20 giving birth to another foal. :-( 

Her record for producing top class racehorses is amazing. As well as Sea the Stars (who I'd love to see win the Arc, just like his mum did) she had Galileo, Black Sam Bellamy and All Too Beautiful.


----------



## glenruby (3 October 2009)

I disagree. Sea the stars is indeed a great horse. Most of the top racehorses have a preferred distance, surface, going etc that they are most likely to produce their best runs over. Given their value and potential for stud career, they are not likely to be tested over unsuitable tracks and going - even less so in this day and age when stud duties command such huge fees. Given fees today, we are less likely to see a horse tested to the extent they were in the past. Mill Reef - definitely one of the greats - but he still had a number of below par races (not all losing ones). I agree a "great" does not need to be unbeaten - but I cant see much in his ratings etc to put him far ahead of STS (except his Arc win  but we will have to wait til tomorrow...)
Mill Reef(141) was the 6th highest rated horse in history by Timeform. STS(140) is the 7th. Any horse rated 140 or more is classed as OUTSTANDING - not just great - outstanding. For the record, Nashwan is rated 135... In this years Cartier Awards standings, STS is far and away the best horse in the world and according to The thoroughbred times is regarded as such by the industry's most knowledgable people.
The general media has regarded STS as great (and many other superlatives) - just a quick google will show that. Thoroughbred and Equine media have described him as "Living legend" (The Irish Field) "an all-time great" (Racing Post) "  Rcaing greats - the most experienced/ informed in the industry have lavished praise on him "You have to compare STS with the best we've seen, because the way he has run this year has been fantastic" (Lester Piggot-winner of 3 Arcs)
How do you class a horse as "great" if not based on personal opinion, media opinion, the opinions/regard of the industry greats, and official timeform/ international ratings?

[This is meant as a genuine question/debate, not as it might sound - patronising etc. I enjoy discussing the ability of racehorses and the opinion of informed individuals on the subject. I for one miss GTFs input. 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 ]

ETA - If STS wins the Arc, he will not be "equal" with Nashwan - hes already surpassed that. Nashwan was defeated (3rd) in the Prix du Niel(sp) and was therefore retired from training and did not contest the Arc. Perhaps, if STS is well beaten tomorrow (over a distance and possibly going that is not his optimum) he will be equal to Nashwan.


----------



## oldvic (3 October 2009)

Surely STS is great because he has done everything so easily that we don't really know how good he is. He has beaten some very highly regarded horses very easily over a range of distances from 7 - 12f and on ground ranging from good to firm to soft/heavy. It's not his fault that nothing so far has really tested him. Heres hoping that his long season doesn't catch up with him tomorrow.


----------



## tiggerette (3 October 2009)

if we are talking greats - surely nothing compares to Eclipse - raced over 4 seasons, against all ages, in a time when it was not uncommon for horses to compete over 3 heats of 4 miles with only a short break in between, on all manner of courses that were neither watered or irregated as they are now . He was unbeaten, often winning by a distance (if he didn't scare his competitors off before the race actually began)

Back  to Sea The Stars - Lester Piggott was quoted as saying that the only thing that would beat him in the Arc would be the going, and then he wouldn't run anyway! Nuff said!!


----------



## mrdarcy (3 October 2009)

I hope Sea of Stars wins tomorrow. He already ranks with the greats surely, or are we saying the rest of the this years crop of three year olds are below par? I don't follow racing that closely these days to know the answer to that. I'd have loved to see Sea of Stars contest the Ledger - I still believe in the triple crown though can understand totally why they didn't run him. I do love that his owner is so young but clearly so enthusiastic about racing and loves his horses. That's always nice to see.

As to past greats my own personal choice would be Dancing Brave. It was more his style of racing than anything - his electric burst of speed when he almost won the Derby and that sprint to the line when he won the Arc. He was pretty magical to me.


----------



## glenruby (3 October 2009)

No this year's crop of three year olds arent underpar, they have just come up against a very good horse who has made them look average. Rip Van Winkle, Delagator and of course Mastercraftman are 3 very good horses in their own right, however, STS has walked all over them. This time last year, the talk was all about Mastercraftsman - after 2 very good wins in the Phoenix and national Stakes, he looked to be the one to beat as a 3yo. If you look up his form, its still very good - and STS is the name that repeats itself throughout it.


----------



## SonnysHumanSlave (4 October 2009)

interesting thread to read, i dont really have any opinion on this, but shall now be having a look.

just wanted to say my claim to fame (sort of) I met and stroked Mill Reef once!!


----------



## mle22 (4 October 2009)

I think Red Rum counts as great - don't care if it was only round one course!


----------



## rosie fronfelen (4 October 2009)

i think we all have our favourite"greats"- Rummy was certainly one of mine, "Yeats" could be one one day, who knows- i'll be cheering on STS later on anyway!


----------



## lucretia (4 October 2009)

not long to go now. and i confess iit has been such a long time since there was a horse that was really 'great' (and i dont really care about timeforms ratings, they are just a guide and dont take into account things like improvements in racing surfaces and vet care and training methods) that i am almost afraid to hope that this one might be the one. I thought he was so fantastic at Epsom (I know I have started at least one thread about his races since) but racing fans have so often been in this place where we are waitng to see the best there has ever been and have been disappointed so you dont even like to hope. 
   And for the record, IMO  timeforms rating for Mill Reef is a bit tight when you consider he only lost the guineas to a horse that raced over every distance and only got beat once in three seasons, was one of the best milers of all time and an outstanding champion himself. it isnt often you get two great champions on the go at the same time and perhaps Mill Reefs rating was lessened because he did get beat by the Brigadier and they never met again to settle the issue.


----------



## mle22 (4 October 2009)

Me too - just watching him on TV now.


----------



## Caledonia (4 October 2009)

He looks fairly cool and calm........ I hope he does it.......


----------



## Amymay (4 October 2009)

Just a little warm perhpas.....

Sooooo exciting!!!!!!!


----------



## Amymay (4 October 2009)

Thy're off


----------



## Amymay (4 October 2009)

He's boxed in and not settled.....


----------



## Amymay (4 October 2009)

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO


----------



## KarynK (4 October 2009)

ARGUMENT OVER - Had an appaling run, pulled early on jossled lost stride lots  but he did it


----------



## mle22 (4 October 2009)

How brilliant!!


----------



## Torphichen (4 October 2009)

that was impressive


----------



## lucretia (4 October 2009)

that was amazing! fanatastic horse.


----------



## Caledonia (4 October 2009)

He's up there now, isn't he? A lot of horses would not have got out from the rail like that....... sheer class...... 

Awesome.


----------



## Amymay (4 October 2009)

Just speechless.


----------



## KarynK (4 October 2009)

Super Conformation, Superb Temparament Bags of ability, I wounder if they would like an appaloosa as his test mare?? ????????


----------



## Caledonia (4 October 2009)

I want to cry!!!


----------



## lucretia (4 October 2009)

i was screaming in my living room.


----------



## lucretia (4 October 2009)

feel a bit sorry for the second though


----------



## Amymay (4 October 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
I want to cry!!! 

[/ QUOTE ]

I am


----------



## Amymay (4 October 2009)

Mick looks absolutely choked


----------



## Caledonia (4 October 2009)

I was screaming too, Lu, my dogs thought I was being murdered!!


----------



## 3BayGeldings (4 October 2009)

gosh.. very tearful now!


----------



## rosie fronfelen (4 October 2009)

so there is a god!!! end of--


----------



## KarynK (4 October 2009)

32 days from Santa Anita and becoming the best in the World ever!  He is in the BC Classic where he takes on Mine That Bird and Zenyatta, if he can beat her then he becomes a legend.  Sadly Rachel Alexander won't be there, would have sold the house for a ticket to that one!!   

If anyone is going this year then what a treat.


----------



## lucretia (4 October 2009)

personally i would put him away now and leave the breeders cup til next year. and i dont think I can quite go to best in the world ever, you cant really compare as horses these days have so much more opportunity to travel and stuff, they tend to race less and have their campaigns carefully managed to preserve unbeaten records. Sea the Stars is up there but there, he has done something no other horse has managed but plenty of others were never asked the same question like Secretariat, Eclipse, Seattle Slew, Citation, Pretty Polly, Cigar to name a few. How many run for three seasons now or even four, like John Henry or Phar Lap? 
  As i said earlier, true greatness is when a horse defies the odds IMO and still succeeds, like Brigadier Gerrard wining the King George over a distance way past his best or Balanchine beating the colts in Ireland or  Arazi last to first in the Breeders Cup. This horse could easily have been beat today he didnt have the best run but when the gap opened he took it and ran on, the second horse showed it was a truly run race up to the standard of the previous couple of years at least, and if there were any chinks, they would have been exposed today.


----------



## rosie fronfelen (4 October 2009)

ok, give it a rest now. yes, all these others have been greats but as from this day Sea The Stars has added to them,lets just be proud and happy for him and everyone concerned with his magnificent win!


----------



## lucretia (4 October 2009)

I think the last two comments were refering to whether the horse needed to run in the breeders cup actually and i think I said he has done enough for the moment.
  and i do not think as i say above that any horse can be called the best in the world ever, you just cant compare, even if he does run in california and win. 
  Just because we have seen a fantastic horse today doesnt mean we should be forgetting the perfomers of the past or implying they did not do as well or better just because we are carrried away by the moment.
  so if you want to give it a rest fine but i will carry on sticking up for the horses of the past who maybe were not so good but gave me just the same pleasure, even the ones i have only been able to see on tape.


----------



## thegreatphilco (4 October 2009)

I have to agree with your comments Glenruby re STS.  Even before today's imperious performance in the Arc, STS should have been in anyone's list of Top 100 racehorses, and according to Mick Kinane YESTERDAY, and he is probably in a better position to judge than us, he rates STS as the best horse he has ever sat on.  Whilst Nashwan was a champ, he wasn't as good as STS even before today's race.  After losing his prep race, he was retired before the Arc, and in the race before that, the King George at Ascot, he won by a neck, &amp; some would say he was lucky that Old Vic had been withdrawn just before the race, or he might not have won that either.  It's always difficult to judge horses of different generations, but I don't know many horses that have won a Group 1 race every single month for 6 consecutive months, including the 2000 Guineas, Derby, Eclipse and the Arc!  In my opinion, STS is probably the best I'm ever likely to see in my lifetime.


----------



## mle22 (4 October 2009)

He was magnificent.


----------



## oldvic (4 October 2009)

I don't think anyone wants to take away from champions of the past and we shouldn't forget them. We are quick to look for the holes but how often a horse runs in his career is dependant on so many factors - maturity, soundness, constitution, temperament, ground to name just a few. Yeats has to be admired for his remarkable career lasting as long as quite a few jumpers, The Minstrel for his extraordinary relish for a fight, Giants Causeway for his iron will, George Washington for his arrogance, Shergar for his brilliance to name just very few. STS I hope will be remembered for being a supreme athlete who dominated his peers. I would love to see him run in the classic if his trainer feels he is still able to do himself justice. Hopefully he can win but I for one won't think any less of him if he doesn't - it's just fun to try and show the Americans a thing or two!!!


----------



## rosie fronfelen (4 October 2009)

same here, i remember well the horse of the 60s and 70s, both nh and flat, working in nh for a few years gave me tremendous insight and looking after Persian War in his latter years inspired me too., but time and racing moves on and new ones come and go all the time. whether STSgoes for the breeders or not, i wish him all the luck in the world and hope he does well.


----------



## S_N (4 October 2009)

How anyone can argue that a horse like STS is NOT a great horse is positively beyond me and from what I can gather EVERYONE I spoke to at Tatts today!  And that was BEFORE the race!!  The horse has now run once a month in Group 1 races for 6 months on the trot and won THEM ALL!!  Over a variety of courses, distances and going.  He simply wiped the floor with the opposition today and that was a class field!  He crossed the line with his head in his chest, wanting more!  One indication of the quality of the field that the 2 pace makers, who were SO far in front coming into the final stretch, were simply swallowed up whole and spat out so devastatingly as the field swooped. That said, no one took either pacemaker seriously, if they had, they would never have allowed them to get such a lead.  

Has any horse ever won the 2000 Guineas, Epsom Derby and the Arc in one season?  As previously mentioned, Nashwan didn't, Nijinsky didn't, Dancing Brave only didn't due to a technicality!  No one could answer this much asked question earlier and it's way passed my bedtime already, so not up to researching it atm.  As for running him in the BC Classic, we'll have to wait and see how he comes out of today's race, but boy O boy would that be a race to see!! 

As an aside, it's interesting that MK's 3 Arc wins have been in 1989, 1999 and 2009, at the ages of 29, 39 and 49 - maybe he'll come out of retirement to try for a 4th in 2019, at the age 59!  Stranger things have happened after all!

ETA - And to think that this family was nearly lost to the TB and to racing!!  The horse we would be without now!  The mind boggles!


----------



## LEC (4 October 2009)

STS is rated only below Brigadier Gerard and Mill Reef of top horses since the 1970s. BG was on 144, MR on 141 and STS on 140.

Personally I have not been so excited about a flat racer since Nashwan. For me he is a better horse than Nashwan and has been asked more questions. Nashwan did not win on the soft and was beaten. That is not a great horse. Just a very good one.


----------



## LEC (4 October 2009)

Top 100 rated.

Horse Born Rating 
Sea Bird 1962 145 
Brigadier Gerard 1968 144 
Tudor Minstrel 1944 144 
Abernant 1946 142 
Ribot 1952 142 
Windy City 1949 142 
Mill Reef 1968 141 
Dancing Brave 1983 140 
Dubai Millennium 1996 140 
Sea The Stars 2006 140 
Shergar 1978 140 
Vaguely Noble 1965 140 
Generous 1988 139 
Pappa Fourway 1952 139 
Peintre Celebre 1994 139 
Reference Point 1984 139 
Alleged 1974 138 
Alycidon 1945 138 
Celtic Swing 1992 138 
Cigar 1990 138 
Daylami 1994 138 
Exbury 1959 138 
Nijinsky 1967 138 
Star of India 1953 138 
Tulloch 1954 138 
Easy Goer 1986 137 
Sunday Silence 1986 137 
Apalachee 1971 137 
Dayjur 1987 137 
Ghostzapper 2000 137 
Grundy 1972 137 
Kingston Town 1976 137 
Mark of Esteem 1993 137 
Molvedo 1958 137 
Montjeu 1996 137 
Moorestyle 1977 137 
Never Say Die 1951 137 
Pinza 1950 137 
Princely Gift 1951 137 
Ragusa 1960 137 
Rheingold 1969 137 
Reliance 1962 137 
Right Boy 1954 137 
Troy 1976 137 
Zilzal 1986 137 
Alcide 1955 136 
Allez France 1970 136 
Ballymoss 1954 136 
Bering 1983 136 
Black Tarquin 1945 136 
Bustino 1971 136 
Crepello 1954 136 
El Condor Pasa 1995 136 
El Gran Senor 1981 136 
Floribunda 1958 136 
Gentlemen 1992 136 
Habibti 1980 136 
Hafiz 1952 136 
Hawk Wing 1999 136 
Helissio 1993 136 
Herbager 1956 136 
My Babu 1945 136 
Manikato 1975 136 
Northjet 1977 136 
Old Vic 1986 136 
Relko 1960 136 
Slip Anchor 1982 136 
Suave Dancer 1988 136 
Sakhee 1997 136 
Tantieme 1947 136 
Texana 1955 136 
Thatch 1970 136 
Warning 1985 136 
All Along 1979 135 
Arazi 1989 135 
Arbar 1944 135 
Arctic Prince 1948 135 
Chanteur 1942 135 
Charlottesville 1957 135 
Coronation 1946 135 
Dahlia 1970 135 
Intikhab 1994 135 
Known Fact 1977 135 
Kris 1976 135 
La Tendresse 1959 135 
Le Moss 1975 135 
Match II 1958 135 
Nashwan 1986 135 
Never So Bold 1980 135 
Pebbles 1981 135 
Petingo 1965 135 
Petoski 1982 135 
Right Royal 1958 135 
Royal Anthem 1995 135 
Sagace 1980 135 
Sassafras 1967 135 
Shadeed 1982 135 
Shahrastani 1983 135 
Shareef Dancer 1980 135 
Sicambre 1948 135 
Sir Ivor 1965 135 
Souverain 1943 135 
St Jovite 1989 135 
Supreme Court 1948 135 
Teenoso 1980 135 
Tenerani 1944 135 
The Bug 1943 135 
The Minstrel 1974 135 
Trempolino 1984 135 
Youth 1973 135


----------



## KarynK (4 October 2009)

Whether others had the opportunity in their day is neither here nor there, this horse is in the here and now and has proven himself an exceptional example of the breed above the greats of the past.  They had an easier time of it not travelling that far and stretching their campaigns over a couple of seasons, he does not have that luxury.

Yes modern travel allows more but also modern racing and the modern TB leaves him even more of a mountain to climb.   

He is remarkable in that for one he has spanned the distances when in the modern TB there are specialists in that the shorter distances, this was not so in the days of the triple crown winners and the Brigadier.   The likes of  Rock of Gibraltar were exceptional but STS is above that as he has done his winning in a shorter period and over a whole range of distances in which those he has beaten are specialists.   He has the speed to win mile races and the stamina to step up to a mile and a half.

He has spanned the generations beating all the older horses Europe could throw at him, the 6 horses behind him today were all group 1 winners !!!!    

He has shown a superb temperament, sadly lacking in the likes of Nijinsky, probably what lost him his Arc, and lets not forget that Nijinsky was a mediocre animal in his 4th year!

He is sound after a gruelling campaign, in a day when some are campaigned sparingly he has not flinched, he has proved his soundness and conformation at the highest level, much as those TBs that founded the breed in their 4 mile match heats.  According to his trainer who has campaigned some awesome horses all over the world, this horses attitude to his work is second to none.


He is an athlete who stands out way above his European peers and should he take on the best the USA have to throw at him on the 7th November on a foreign surface he is not bred for and win,  he will be without doubt the best the world has ever seen.  How on earth could he not be, if he won the race at the world racing championships, with worthy horses from across the globe by invitation, unless of course you would have him contest the Melbourne Cup!  

For although European grass performers have come near to a breeders cup classic on several occasions and won one last year, those horses have had dirt in their pedigrees and had not achieved anywhere near what this horse has done in his all be it short career.

If he contests and wins the Classic what in earth would be the point in running him as a 4 YO.   Besides the 2010 BC will be held at Churchill Downs KY, still a dirt surface there is no way they will risk a run on that track graded for speed for the BC championships. The only sensible thing to do with this chap but send him to the breeding shed ASAP.  How gutted would the racing world be if he ended up like George.  He has already won the right to pass on those genes that have made him so great.

I think it highly unlikely we will see another like this certainly in our lifetimes.  Unless of course it will be one of his offspring!!!


----------



## tiggerette (4 October 2009)

The real shame is that we won't see him again after the BC - he will be packed off to stud to start a whole new dynasty. What an athlete!


----------



## TarrSteps (4 October 2009)

Ah, but that's another question . . . it's interesting to look down that list and consider how many of those undoubtable stars have also excelled in the breeding shed.

Now, Urban Sea, that's a GREAT horse.


----------



## tiggerette (4 October 2009)

well, lets hope so anyway - Gallileo seems to be doing ok as a stallion and obviously Urban Sea was exceptional, so fingers crossed! It's certainly a shame to see them whisked off to stud before they are properly mature, but money is money


----------



## Caledonia (4 October 2009)

It will be interesting to see if the Cape Cross (Danzig) stallion line proves to be as significant for Sea the Stars as the Sadlers Wells line has been for his offspring. 
If so, we can surely hope for some amazing successors on the track. 
Urban Sea definitely got world class racehorses, and in Galileo has a top class stallion son. Let's hope her magic carries through to her best son on the track, Sea the Stars.


----------



## foxviewstud (5 October 2009)

didnt watch the race but heard he worked hard to win, dont follow racing really as hate to see such young horses out there, just my opinion


----------



## Caledonia (5 October 2009)

Foxviewstud, if you are concerned enough to have such a negative opinion and have taken the time to post, perhaps you should have made the effort to watch the race rather than relying on second hand hearsay?

Sea the Stars wins the Arc


----------



## Amymay (5 October 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
didnt watch the race but heard he worked hard to win, dont follow racing really as hate to see such young horses out there, just my opinion 

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's fair to say that anything has to work hard to win the Arc.  He won really strongly though, and the field were well beaten.


----------



## Daffodil (5 October 2009)

An amazing race!   Set aside the afternoon to see it, but couldn't post any comments until now. 
	
	
		
		
	


	





Justifies the label "great" now I think.   To pull as hard as he did, get boxed in until quite late and then scorch through the field as he did was just incredible.

On his participation in the Breeders' Cup Classic, after the George Washington horror, I can't bear to see any dirt track racing, however good the actual surface.   This exceptional horse has no need to travel halfway round the world, at the end of a long and lucrative season, to race on such a surface.  

I hope he bows out now.


----------



## Dragon22 (5 October 2009)

Fantastic race and the he definitely deserves to be included in anyone's list of "greats" For me it was his best performance to date by far - really showed that he has a toughness as well as pure talent.

The Breeders' Cup is due to be run at Santa Anita again which is actually an artificial surface and not dirt, although I too hope he doesn't run  - for me he has nothing left to prove and I think that the team around him think the same.


----------



## Caledonia (5 October 2009)

ATR said this morning that ccording to the owner it is 50/50 whether he runs or not. 

I'd love to see him finished for this season now, and stay in training next yet to do the global calendar.


----------



## teapot (5 October 2009)

According to what's in the Telegraph sport section today, he may never run again and go straight to stud. 

Be interested to see what happens over the next couple of months


----------



## nomis (5 October 2009)

A phenomenal horse who deserves all the accolades said of him.  I too think that going for the Breeders Cup would not be a good idea.  Not that I dont think he would win, but if I owned this horse I would now be worried for his safety.  He has beaten the best, so why not let him enjoy the fruits of his genes and see if his breeding can be passed on to the next generations.  As others have said, he does not need to prove anything else, he is a world great!


----------



## brighteyes (5 October 2009)

<font color="blue"> what is great in the end? </font> 

Dead or broken down, sadly


----------



## rosie fronfelen (5 October 2009)

bit sad and unnecessary? i had put emphasis in the "great"!


----------



## mle22 (5 October 2009)

'The light that burns twice as bright, burns half as long - and you have burned so very, very brightly' Bladerunner


----------



## Caledonia (5 October 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
 <font color="blue"> what is great in the end? </font> 

Dead or broken down, sadly  
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

That's hardly true.........


----------



## S_N (5 October 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
 <font color="blue"> what is great in the end? </font> 

Dead or broken down, sadly  
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

And on what basis do you come to this conclusion?  Genuine question, I'm interested.


----------



## TarrSteps (5 October 2009)

Oh my, what a maudlin tone this has taken. 
	
	
		
		
	


	





The thing you have to remember about the artificial surface is that, leaving aside the debate about its safety, the horses that run on it in America also train on it.  Unlike here, the vast majority of horses live at the track (Woodbine, in Toronto, had 2500 resident horses going in and out regularly!) and train on the surface every day.  Obviously most of the horses at the BC won't be resident at Santa Anita but they will likely come from some other track that has an artificial surface of some sort.  

I think it's a huge ask to send a horse that distance, into a totally different climate and system, to run on an unfamiliar surface.  It's not exactly a level playing field, even with horses coming from the East Coast.  We shall see, I guess.  Perhaps they think if they don't send him - aside from the $$$ of course - there will always be a "but" in his legacy.

I'm getting very partial to Cape Cross.  I know two who, while maybe not the most impressive on the surface, are lovely "people" and good, tough race horses.  I know two is not a sample but positive associations and all that.


----------



## Caledonia (5 October 2009)

Don't forget Ouija Board is a Cape Cross!


----------



## KarynK (5 October 2009)

Judging by last years results, I think he stands a huge chance on the Pro-Ride if they decide to go, probably more so than on the very firm inner turf at SA and a tight track by European standards just 7 furlongs, compared to the mile oval of the outer artificial track. Bearing in mind that the only park type tracks he has raced on are Sandown and leopardstown just a tad bigger than the SA turf!  He has also never run on a European firm course let alone the concrete of California. 

The Pro-Ride statistics on injuries are impressive when compared to the traditional dirt surface, which was why authorities in California insisted on the change.

His trainer is one of the very best at international travel and if they decide to run,  the horse will be there with the best possible prep and chance.  His temperament lends itself to travel and a good clip out should help with the climate.  The turf horses performed very well on the artificial last year with the Europeans well up there ergo only the second European victory in the history of the BC classic with Ravens Pass. 

From a stud point of view a win in the classic will assure him of the best possible start at stud with the best mares from both sides of the pond lining up, especially as North American tracks will probably all go artificial,  he will be at the top of the wish list of future sires. 

Also it's a chance to prove to timeform that he is every bit as good as those few still rated above him.  One thing he will get in the Classic is tested with a good pace and some worthy rivals that could push him to that earthshattering performance! 

It is possible I suppose that they might consider a tilt at the Japan cup dirt or turf, gving him a bit of a rest (29th Nov) but this has really lost its edge with the BC being so close.

If he should continue in training (unlikely) I do hope that they do not contend the classic in 2010 on the KY dirt at Churchill Downs, that could end in a real disaster!


----------



## Mithras (5 October 2009)

Wonderful horse, and great training job to keep him so sweet all season long.  I was thinking about Nijinsky and its true, he did perform poorly towards the end of the season.  But he did get ringworm before the St Leger which might excuse that.  I would have loved to have seen Sea The Stars contest the St Leger, its only a recent modern fashion to consider it too long for potential stallions.

I'm not a fan of the Breeders Cup.  I think Sea The Stars's season has already been long enough and so often the BC races are won by total outsiders and relatively moderate horses.  Ditto the Japan Cup which I agree has also lost its edge.  I'd rather see him kept on in training as a 4 year old and contest mile races as well middle distance.  But if he isn't being kept in training, then I guess he may as well go for the Breeders Cup, at least it isn't on dirt this year.


----------



## hadfos (5 October 2009)

He has won ALL his group 1 races this yr with ease,am not denying he is a great racehorse,but i would love to see him in training for the nxt 2yrs 
	
	
		
		
	


	




,prove his worth continously!
Sadly yeats didnt go out on a high(ballydoyles fault) but hell for his age against younger stock he fought his last battle well


----------



## brighteyes (8 October 2009)

Phar Lap, Shergar, Dubai Million and Barbaro.  I wish they'd all lived longer and/or been raced less.


----------



## Dragon22 (8 October 2009)

Dubai Millennium died of grass sickness and Shergar was stolen by the IRA. 

I therefore don't think either of their deaths can be attributed to over racing!!!


----------



## S_N (8 October 2009)

Phar Lap was allededly doped and Barbaro was just bloody unlucky.   Any horse can take an unlucky step, anywhere!  Dragon22 hit the nail on the head regarding Dubai Millenium and Shergar.


----------

