# Dengie Grass Range



## Chinchilla (12 March 2018)

Has anyone used the above? Specifically thinking of changing the mares' feed from Hi fi lite/Heygates Pony nuts/Fast Fibre to Dengie's meadow grass and their grass nuts. 
(They are only fed during the winter.)

The Dengie meadow grass stuff appeals because I know in summer they maintain just fine on grass alone, but it has oil added to help maintain condition when it is colder as they live out, and they need a token feed to stop them arguing whilst the geldings get their tea. But, I've heard that you have to supplement with Vit E if feeding oil; does this apply to oil already in feeds? Also, why do you have to do this?

If I remember rightly a (probably very) small portion of Dengie's profits goes towards the Laminitis Trust so I quite like them as a brand which is why I looked at them for feed inspiration.  But even so the current diet costs £33.42 for 1 bag of each feedstuff whereas the grass based diet would be £21.58 which is quite a big saving added up across the whole winter. 

I want to change their feed as if you look at them they're all mostly straw and molasses which seems a bit of a silly thing to be feeding a couple of total fatties, particularly considering one of them is laminitic. 

Also, is Vitex any good for cushings? Having read this http://www.laminitis.org/Vitex%20trial.html it has me quite intrigued! Any input/thoughts? Where is the best place to buy if you were going to use it for a pony with PPID? (Who is also on prascend obviously, which has worked wonders!)

Thank you....sorry for being a bit ignorant. Polite correction is always welcomed if I get anything wrong but don't hate too hard please.


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## Chinchilla (12 March 2018)

Although the grass stuff does have an awful lot of sugar, actually _more_ than the hi fi. I'm really not sure at all now.


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## Pinkvboots (12 March 2018)

have no idea of the sugar content of the dengie grass but I feed the graze on chaff which is just grass nothing added at all its about £8 a bag it might be lower than dengie if your able to source that, I feed it with unmolased sugar beet and micronized linseed.


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## ihatework (12 March 2018)

I feed the Dengie grass chaff and like it. It wont have a high enough oil content to be worrying about Vit E, its just a light spray of rapeseed oil.

Just re-read your post, wouldnt feed to a laminitic


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## Chinchilla (12 March 2018)

ihatework said:



			wouldn&#8217;t feed to a laminitic
		
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Ok. Just because of the natural sugar content, or is there something else? Mares are on (very) restricted grazing and muzzled in summer during the day to give an idea of just how much of a good doer they both are lol. 
Pinkvboots thank you I will investigate that chaff a bit more!!
ETA ... the graze on is 12% sugar too, the same as the grass range. Assuming it wouldn't be suitable then? (Bearing in mind pony hasn't had laminitis for a few years but is on a very strict regime in summer so don't want to spoil all the hard work in winter!).
Though actually the molasses free version of the hi fi lite has only 2.5% sugar but it has cereal straw and the word 'cereal' always puts me off, but I'm not sure if that's just me being paranoid or what...?
Graze-on do a 'gold blend' that's 6.5% sugar but again it contains cereal straw and molasses. :-/

I'm not really sure what other brands to look at? I saw this https://www.simplesystemhorsefeeds.co.uk/products/viewhorsefeed.asp?id=4&name=Organic Lucie Stalks which is very high fibre and under 5% sugar. 
 I guess it might be OK as a winter forage as they keep warm by fermenting forage in the hind gut but tbh I am nowhere near knowledgeable enough on feeding!!...hmm. Feeding is bloody complicated ugh.


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## be positive (12 March 2018)

All straw is cereal in origin so don't let that put you off, I do think feeding 3 different feeds as a "token" is rather overkill for any pony let alone ones at risk from laminitis, 3 of mine get a token of soaked grassnuts and linseed and it is a token in every sense of the word, they are in at night.
I have two living out, 1 is a 16.2 ISH, who have not had any hard feed all winter, 2 small ponies in at night get nothing in a bucket and are more than happy with hay/ haylage, my feed bill for 7 is extremely low although the hay bill makes up for it. I believe in keeping things as simple as possible, plenty of hay and feed as little as possible, it has worked for many years, they all look well and those in work get a bit more as and when it is required.


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## Chinchilla (12 March 2018)

be positive said:



			All straw is cereal in origin so don't let that put you off, I do think feeding 3 different feeds as a "token" is rather overkill for any pony let alone ones at risk from laminitis, 3 of mine get a token of soaked grassnuts and linseed and it is a token in every sense of the word, they are in at night.
I have two living out, 1 is a 16.2 ISH, who have not had any hard feed all winter, 2 small ponies in at night get nothing in a bucket and are more than happy with hay/ haylage, my feed bill for 7 is extremely low although the hay bill makes up for it. I believe in keeping things as simple as possible, plenty of hay and feed as little as possible, it has worked for many years, they all look well and those in work get a bit more as and when it is required.
		
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OK. Out of interest is it still considered OK to feed 50/50 hay/straw mix for fatties or is that not done anymore as it sounds like significantly upping forage and reducing hard feed would be a good thing to do (regardless of what hard feed I eventually settle on).


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## Cortez (12 March 2018)

Pinkvboots said:



			have no idea of the sugar content of the dengie grass but I feed the graze on chaff which is just grass nothing added at all its about £8 a bag it might be lower than dengie if your able to source that, I feed it with unmolased sugar beet and micronized linseed.
		
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If it's "just grass" is that not actually just.....hay?


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## be positive (12 March 2018)

Chinchilla said:



			OK. Out of interest is it still considered OK to feed 50/50 hay/straw mix for fatties or is that not done anymore as it sounds like significantly upping forage and reducing hard feed would be a good thing to do (regardless of what hard feed I eventually settle on).
		
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I think it is fine to offer straw as part of their forage ration and have done in the past, mine are bedded on straw and will pick through the best bits, I do sometimes feed it in summer to the real fatties and it has never caused an issue although I do think it needs to be fed along with something more nutritious and easily digested, reducing hard feed is far better on the pocket, increasing forage is far better for the pony as it lasts longer and provides pretty much all they require in a diet.


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## be positive (12 March 2018)

Cortez said:



			If it's "just grass" is that not actually just.....hay?
		
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Chopped up, bagged and quadrupled, possibly more, in price.


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## Chinchilla (12 March 2018)

Cortez yes it is just grass...which is why I've decided against feeding it. It makes no sense (to me anyway) to restrict grass in the field then give the horse a bucket full of the stuff twice a day lol!!
OK. So the plan is up the forage at least...big bale straw is only £25 or something so not actually that expensive and hay is only £3 for 25kg so which wouldn't actually be too expensive...and I already know they both adore straw for some reason. (Weird beasts.)
Simple systems do these things called 'organic lucie stalks' that are <5% sugar, 38 - 49 % fibre, <10mJ/KG energy (tbh I'd prefer around 8 but OK, considering I'm talking about feeding in winter that's not a catastrophe) and long stalk fibre so they will be eating for longer so won't need to be fed as much. That's useful as they've mastered the art of food inhalation! 
https://www.simplesystemhorsefeeds.co.uk/products/viewhorsefeed.asp?id=4&name=Organic Lucie Stalks
Anyway...thoughts on that? 
Would that be OK to feed 'neat'? (ie no other feedstuffs added except a bit of water; I confess to be highly paranoid about choke.)


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## ester (12 March 2018)

I considered it when it came out but decided the sugar was too high for F compared the aspero that I know he eats , you can get plain straw chaffs but I don't think I'd have much luck with that. We've had to switch to their hay cobs for teeth now as soaked so he gets about a handful to have everything in and bucket gets licked clean.

With regards to it being just grass, if anyone wants to get Frank to eat his liver stuff in some hay let me know how you manage it 

TBH unless you need to get supps down them I wouldn't bother. 

(lucie stalks are alfalfa)


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## Chinchilla (12 March 2018)

ester said:



			I considered it when it came out but decided the sugar was too high for F compared the aspero that I know he eats , you can get plain straw chaffs but I don't think I'd have much luck with that. We've had to switch to their hay cobs for teeth now as soaked so he gets about a handful to have everything in and bucket gets licked clean.

With regards to it being just grass, if anyone wants to get Frank to eat his liver stuff in some hay let me know how you manage it 

TBH unless you need to get supps down them I wouldn't bother. 

(lucie stalks are alfalfa)
		
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Hmm.....a plain straw chaff sounds like it might be a good idea actually lol - bearing in mind you only have to _think_ the word 'food' for Diva to gain 25 kilos  - so what's good/what's not/brand?  Bearing in mind in winter they still need a bit of something but  finding something that they don't turn into lardcakes on is so hard...!!! I like the idea of the lucerne simple systems stuff tbh, it's not "just" hay/grass, but isn't OTT  on the sugar front.

ETA.....this any good? 6mJ/Kg, TWO PERCENT SUGAR!!!!!!!! , 40% fibre.... http://www.honeychop.com/our-horse-feed/honeychop-oat-straw/    That's really, really low energy particularly for a winter feed but if they drop too much can just stick some micronised linseed in it, the bonus of that being it'll make them all shiny.  (me? Childish? Never...)
But then, if that really is just 'plain oat straw' I could just buy a bale of oat straw lol...they like straw so much I use it to catch them when they're in season and being little shits :lol:

And on the subject of low energy, TopSpec zero is 4.0 mJ/Kg but it doesn't list sugar levels.


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## SEL (12 March 2018)

I use oat chaff (topchop zero) mixed with a soggy 1/2 scoop of kwik beet for flavour to get drugs into my fatty. 

I fed SS lucie stalks until I realised the Appy couldn't have alfalfa. It's quite rough, fibrous stuff. For me it's easier to buy topchop zero to bulk out a feed.


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## ester (12 March 2018)

yup honeychop which you found, or topchop zero are straw but the latter has mint/apple flavouring I think. 

Yes you could just buy a bale of straw


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## Chinchilla (12 March 2018)

SEL said:



			I use oat chaff (topchop zero) mixed with a soggy 1/2 scoop of kwik beet for flavour to get drugs into my fatty. 

I fed SS lucie stalks until I realised the Appy couldn't have alfalfa. It's quite rough, fibrous stuff. For me it's easier to buy topchop zero to bulk out a feed.
		
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out of interest why is it easier for you to buy topchop zero? (Though it is actually cheaper so there is that to take into consideration...)


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## Chinchilla (12 March 2018)

ester said:



			yup honeychop which you found, or topchop zero are straw but the latter has mint/apple flavouring I think. 

Yes you could just buy a bale of straw 

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:lol: give up with this feeding nonsense. 
*buys bale of straw*

Being serious I think honeychop might be the way to go in so far as a token feed goes, then combine that with adlib forage (50/50 hay straw mix) and I might actually find a way of having horses who don't look like the side of a brick outhouse before April...I am talking about next winter feeding anyway. They'll be finished getting hard feed and hay by this weekend and the muzzles will be on before the end of the month!!!

Out of interest, honeychop do a 'calming' one, but if they're only getting a bit (say 1/3 of a stubbs scoop) how likely is that even to work? (The calming ingredients being marigold, chamomile, nettle and mint).


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## ester (12 March 2018)

stockists at a guess, I don't know many that stock SS compared to topspec, I can't get the agrobs anywhere near somerset, but a few stockists up here and when we were in wilts.


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## Chinchilla (12 March 2018)

I think i've seen the honeychop floating about locally but it's not common...I think you can order it online though?? Not seen Simple Systems anywhere in the county.  
Still tempted by the lucie stalks tbh. the "38 - 49%" fibre appeals lol but I don't want to risk blowing anybody's brains if alfalfa can really do that, my confidence is fragile enough without an exploding spotty beast.  

Think will just try adlib forage and honey chop plain oat straw ( the big bales we buy are wheat, I think, but the mares are 'eat first, think later' animals so are highly unlikely to care!).

Sort of assuming I wouldn't have to add anything to the oat straw if they maintained their weight OK on it? And if they don't maintain, can I just add micronised linseed?  

Just ordered a sample of the chopped oat straw anyway to see if they'll eat it...


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## Cortez (12 March 2018)

Um, if your horses are already fat, why are you feeding them at all? And alfalfa/Lucerne is not hay, it is a legume and very likely to hot horses up. It is what I used to feed in America to anything that needed fattening up.


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## Darlabean (12 March 2018)

Cortez said:



			Um, if your horses are already fat, why are you feeding them at all? And alfalfa/Lucerne is not hay, it is a legume and very likely to hot horses up. It is what I used to feed in America to anything that needed fattening up.
		
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This. Most say they need the token feed for their supplements. Most don&#8217;t need the supplements either!


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## tallyho! (13 March 2018)

How is a token handful of grass at 12% sugar going to affect a laminitic (although most grass pellets are 8% sugar)? It wouldn't affect a gnat. 

Feeding is complex especially compromised souls such as laminitics, epsm, cushingoids etc... it's best to get a qualified nutritionist INDEPENDENT of a feed company. It was the best 50 squid I spent. 

Be prepared to be told that most of your problems come down to the fitness of the horse when it comes to laminitis. Sadly, most leisure horses in the UK are not fit in any shape or form and the feed companies cater for this and make a lots of money out of it.


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## TGM (13 March 2018)

Is there a particular reason the mare is given bucket feed in winter?  Does she drop tons of weight in winter?  If not the most I'd be giving her if you really need a token feed, is a tiny handful of something like Fast Fibre.  If she does get thin in winter yet fat in summer I would be upping the winter hay ration and getting the teeth checked.


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## ester (13 March 2018)

tallyho! said:



			How is a token handful of grass at 12% sugar going to affect a laminitic (although most grass pellets are 8% sugar)? It wouldn't affect a gnat.
		
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I have said this in the past but having researched this quite a lot recently the conclusion seems to be in metabolically compromised horse that it doesn't matter if it is just a handful if the combined ESC/starch is greater than 10% in any 'intake' then it risks compromising the metabolism because of its affect on blood glucose levels which is why treats are recommended to be in this region too. Why then risk that when it's easy enough not to?


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## SEL (13 March 2018)

Chinchilla said:



			out of interest why is it easier for you to buy topchop zero? (Though it is actually cheaper so there is that to take into consideration...)
		
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Countrywide are 5 mins down the road and stock it. Although they are now in Administration so if they shut them down I have a much longer drive for feed of any description!


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## SEL (13 March 2018)

ester said:



			I have said this in the past but having researched this quite a lot recently the conclusion seems to be in metabolically compromised horse that it doesn't matter if it is just a handful if the combined ESC/starch is greater than 10% in any 'intake' then it risks compromising the metabolism because of its affect on blood glucose levels which is why treats are recommended to be in this region too. Why then risk that when it's easy enough not to?
		
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Since I was formally diagnosed with type 1 diabetes I spend my life monitoring my blood sugar levels and can confirm that small meals can send glucose levels sky high. So even if my daily intake is low in sugar overall, just 2 jelly babies can have a significant effect - and its the swings up and down that are actually dangerous in terms of the insulin response. Horses are mammals, so no real difference and in fact it is possible to buy glucose monitors calibrated to them if someone really wanted to track their horse's blood glucose levels.


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## Leo Walker (13 March 2018)

SEL said:



			Since I was formally diagnosed with type 1 diabetes I spend my life monitoring my blood sugar levels and can confirm that small meals can send glucose levels sky high. So even if my daily intake is low in sugar overall, just 2 jelly babies can have a significant effect - and its the swings up and down that are actually dangerous in terms of the insulin response. Horses are mammals, so no real difference and in fact it is possible to buy glucose monitors calibrated to them if someone really wanted to track their horse's blood glucose levels.
		
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But there is a huge difference between someone with diabetes and someone without. If type 1s eat jelly babies for eg it causes a swing up, if I eat high fat food like pizza it causes a huge drop then a huge swing up. That is because I'm diabetic. it doesnt happen to "normal" people. 

Metabolically compromised horses arent injecting insulin so its not a good comparison.


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## Pearlsasinger (13 March 2018)

Chinchilla said:



			Although the grass stuff does have an awful lot of sugar, actually _more_ than the hi fi. I'm really not sure at all now. 

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There is a difference between grass sugars and the added refined sugar that is molasses.  I always try to avoid molasses because many horses struggle to digest it but they are specifically evolved to digest the sugars found in grass.  I used to have a mare who was severely intolerant of defined sugar but she coped extremely well on grass-based feed, or alfalfa.


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## SEL (13 March 2018)

Leo Walker said:



			But there is a huge difference between someone with diabetes and someone without. If type 1s eat jelly babies for eg it causes a swing up, if I eat high fat food like pizza it causes a huge drop then a huge swing up. That is because I'm diabetic. it doesnt happen to "normal" people. 

Metabolically compromised horses arent injecting insulin so its not a good comparison.
		
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Not explaining myself well. They have shown in studies that horses with EMS have high levels of circulating blood sugar - so probably more aligned to insulin resistant type 2. I wasn't trying to imply these horses were diabetic, just that if there is an insulin disorder then one meal does matter. With PSSM horses Valberg proved a higher level of insulin sensitivity (to varying degrees) than the general population. So an individual meal can create a harmful insulin response, which means what is in the bucket does count - it's not just what is eaten across a day.


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## Pearlsasinger (13 March 2018)

i fed Honeychop plain oat straw chaff as a hay replacer of my obese Draft mare.  She quite enjoyed it BUT she got colic when eating long straw, so I wouldn't feed long straw, although it is cheaper than the chaff.


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## Chinchilla (14 March 2018)

Guys if you look at the replies to ester I _was_ considering not giving hard feed at all, and just giving hay and straw! This is talking about food for next winter - they aren't on feed this year anymore anyway - so am going to try not bothering with hard food at all. Although, the honeychop _is_ straw, too.
Their fitness is a hard one as don't work them really anyway, and in winter it's impossible as it gets dark too early.


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## ihatework (14 March 2018)

Chinchilla said:



			Guys if you look at the replies to ester I _was_ considering not giving hard feed at all, and just giving hay and straw! This is talking about food for next winter - they aren't on feed this year anymore anyway - so am going to try not bothering with hard food at all. Although, the honeychop _is_ straw, too.
Their fitness is a hard one as don't work them really anyway, and in winter it's impossible as it gets dark too early.
		
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Then in all honesty I&#8217;d save yourself some time, energy and money and do just feed hay & long baled straw


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## Chinchilla (14 March 2018)

ihatework said:



			Then in all honesty I&#8217;d save yourself some time, energy and money and do just feed hay & long baled straw
		
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Yes am certainly going to try that


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## tristar (14 March 2018)

i would reduce all feed and use slow feeders to extend eating time, i am a believer in nutrition, i try to find a diet that is interesting and offers nutrition and fibre, and no empty calories, in the hope of regulating blood sugar and keeping them occupied munching.

several small feeds of hay two feeds of alfa hi fi lite, sprinkling of oats, spoon of fast fibre, linseed oil, salt, and at the mo seaweed, sometimes straight herbs,  swedes, carrotts apples in very small quantities, including a pony who would get lami at the blink of an eye.

it looks or sounds at lot, it is`nt, i make the effort because i believe in it because it works for mine, the lami pony is in her twenties, and she is slim, fit and full of life and energy, and looks at you with eyes that say `life is great`, and interestingly she has more  bucket feed than the bigger horses.

the others are also very fit on their regime, their wind is great, no puffing, no sweat when worked, even at the mo when work keeps stopping because of the weather, they are slim, muscled and shiny, and have an attiitude of joy to their work, i love slim horses, they look so much more elegant and move far better.

all the time i get people saying i feed them too much, but i don`t!, if they eat too much they will get fat, they are not fat they are slim.

i think all efforts to provide a horse with an interesting and varied diet will pay dividends in the long run, horses need to repair themselves and maintain their large skeleton as soundness is paramount.


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## Chinchilla (14 March 2018)

tristar said:



			i would reduce all feed and use slow feeders to extend eating time, i am a believer in nutrition, i try to find a diet that is interesting and offers nutrition and fibre, and no empty calories, in the hope of regulating blood sugar and keeping them occupied munching.

several small feeds of hay two feeds of alfa hi fi lite, sprinkling of oats, spoon of fast fibre, linseed oil, salt, and at the mo seaweed, sometimes straight herbs,  swedes, carrotts apples in very small quantities, including a pony who would get lami at the blink of an eye.

it looks or sounds at lot, it is`nt, i make the effort because i believe in it because it works for mine, the lami pony is in her twenties, and she is slim, fit and full of life and energy, and looks at you with eyes that say `life is great`, and interestingly she has more  bucket feed than the bigger horses.

the others are also very fit on their regime, their wind is great, no puffing, no sweat when worked, even at the mo when work keeps stopping because of the weather, they are slim, muscled and shiny, and have an attiitude of joy to their work, i love slim horses, they look so much more elegant and move far better.

all the time i get people saying i feed them too much, but i don`t!, if they eat too much they will get fat, they are not fat they are slim.

i think all efforts to provide a horse with an interesting and varied diet will pay dividends in the long run, horses need to repair themselves and maintain their large skeleton as soundness is paramount.
		
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What slow feeders do you use?


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## tristar (15 March 2018)

we made some of our own, some big outdoor ones, some indoor ones, and use hayplays and sometimes very large tiny holed haynets


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## Chinchilla (19 March 2018)

Update on food  
Have cut down their food almost to nothing now but the free sample of Oat Straw came today: Spotty mare thinks it's the best thing ever and got so excited about the teeny dampened down pinchful she got before her tea that she almost ate my glove as well, which she's not done for ages because it's bloody terrible manners!! 
Mini mare thinks it's poison but she's obsessed with hay...
So plan is for next year to move spotty in to stable next door to the twattish TB so she can have as much straw as she likes (will probably just buy big bales and give her that); mini mare, who will be 19 next year, will be moved into the field with the field shelter with the geriatric Shetland so they can have hay and high fibre blue horse hage and share a stable as like to keep the older ones moving about. Not sure what to do re. bucket feed with mini mare but she may not need any.
 Thinking of trying the molasses free hi fi lite but still not sure as she is quite fussy when it comes to hard food. (And yes teeth are fine.) Maybe just buy a billion tonnes of hay and give her that she'd be happy as larry lol....
Doesn't matter yet at least - have a year to think about it!!
Just want to say thank you for your help everybody  it is much appreciated!!


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