# Horses killed on M4



## Cecile (22 January 2018)

https://www.newburytoday.co.uk/news...lled-by-hgvs-on-motorway-near-hungerford.html


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## Clodagh (22 January 2018)

How sad. And very inconvenient! I wonder if it would be wrong to assume the colour and type of these horses?


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## cbmcts (22 January 2018)

Yes it's getting to the time of year that horses are frequently loose on the A127 due to the grass going off. Rubbish fencing and hungry horses mean that there are certain stretches that I drive with extreme caution especially in the dark early mornings. There was a spate of nasty accidents a few years ago and tbf it has improved...


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## OldFogie (23 January 2018)

Don't forget that it takes two to tango. Most HGV drivers I see on motorways should not be allowed anywhere near one! They tank along in convoy inches from the one in front, pull out without signals or consideration etc., etc., yet they sit up higher than anyone else giving them an presidented view of the road in front but they still manage to kill folks broken down on the hardshoulder.
In my opinion there is very little excuse for hitting an animal the size of a horse on a motorway - galloping towards you around a bendy lane maybe - a motorway no. Not even in the dark.


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## popsdosh (27 January 2018)

OldFogie said:



			Don't forget that it takes two to tango. Most HGV drivers I see on motorways should not be allowed anywhere near one! They tank along in convoy inches from the one in front, pull out without signals or consideration etc., etc., yet they sit up higher than anyone else giving them an presidented view of the road in front but they still manage to kill folks broken down on the hardshoulder.
In my opinion there is very little excuse for hitting an animal the size of a horse on a motorway - galloping towards you around a bendy lane maybe - a motorway no. Not even in the dark.
		
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LOL what an arrogant reply ,lets hope your never in that situation on a motorway. Horses are at best unpredictable and not something you would expect coming towards you on a motorway. Just for your brain to digest most accidents involving lorries on motorways are caused by normal cars doing things they shouldnt.


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## Elf On A Shelf (27 January 2018)

popsdosh said:



			LOL what an arrogant reply ,lets hope your never in that situation on a motorway. Horses are at best unpredictable and not something you would expect coming towards you on a motorway. Just for your brain to digest most accidents involving lorries on motorways are caused by normal cars doing things they shouldnt.
		
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Not to mention the fact that a lorry can't stop like a car can. They weigh a hell of a lot more and are very easy to Jack knife and cause a hell of a lot of destruction that could cover bother sides of the motorway if they start going sideways! 

Yes lorry drivers annoy people quite a lot but until you have driven one yourself don't make assumptions!

P.s.this isn't aimed at your popsdosh! I hit the wrong quote button!


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## scats (27 January 2018)

OldFogie said:



			In my opinion there is very little excuse for hitting an animal the size of a horse on a motorway - galloping towards you around a bendy lane maybe - a motorway no. Not even in the dark.
		
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Have you seen the carnage that can occur when vehicle tries to swerve or stop suddenly on a motorway??

Much rather a dead horse than several vehicles worth of dead humans.


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## fburton (27 January 2018)

EKW said:



			Not to mention the fact that a lorry can't stop like a car can. They weigh a hell of a lot more and are very easy to Jack knife and cause a hell of a lot of destruction that could cover bother sides of the motorway if they start going sideways!
		
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Yeah, not all lorries have high tech braking systems like Volvo (and others).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vI9EIjUx20I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WH4F7J7AAFE


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## fburton (27 January 2018)

scats said:



			Have you seen the carnage that can occur when vehicle tries to swerve or stop suddenly on a motorway??

Much rather a dead horse than several vehicles worth of dead humans.
		
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Absolutely. And if I could pull a lever to deflect a lorry or train away from people towards a horse (assuming that was the only choice), I would in a flash.


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## ILuvCowparsely (27 January 2018)

OldFogie said:



			Don't forget that it takes two to tango. Most HGV drivers I see on motorways should not be allowed anywhere near one! They tank along in convoy inches from the one in front, pull out without signals or consideration etc., etc., yet they sit up higher than anyone else giving them an presidented view of the road in front but they still manage to kill folks broken down on the hardshoulder.
In my opinion there is very little excuse for hitting an animal the size of a horse on a motorway - galloping towards you around a bendy lane maybe - a motorway no. Not even in the dark.
		
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Maybe you ought to think about what you say before you blurt out nonsense about something you do not know or have experience of.    Have you ever driven an 7.5 ton or bigger???  Do you know the stopping distance of a truck going at an average speed of 50 mph??  I fear not.  Where I am not denying they do tail gate but equally cars do it too so a bit rich to single out a lorry driver, as lorry drivers do long ours on the road, and more often than not when they do  collide with a car on the hard shoulder they fell asleep at the wheel.

Truck drivers have to be aware of everything around them but a horse suddenly appearing is not something you expect on the motorway.  If there was a long line of trucks ahead of him how on earth could he see past.
As yet we don't know that the lorry drivers were carrying as if it is dynamite they cannot make sudden  movements.   (Mates boyfriend carry's this), you really have labelled  the truck drivers at fault without knowing all the details which is very single minded of you  of you.


My horsebox has a speed restriction on meaning I cannot go faster than 50mph If I have a horse suddenly appear in front of me  I would have little chance to avoid as most likely I would have other vehicles around me and swerving would make me hit one of them, not to mention injuring my horses inside.  

As yet we do not know how they were hit as if they crossed from one side to another you could not have any chance to avoid and unless the motorway was quiet  you would not see much as if they suddenly came on from the side, they stood little chance.


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## Goldenstar (27 January 2018)

OldFogie said:



			Don't forget that it takes two to tango. Most HGV drivers I see on motorways should not be allowed anywhere near one! They tank along in convoy inches from the one in front, pull out without signals or consideration etc., etc., yet they sit up higher than anyone else giving them an presidented view of the road in front but they still manage to kill folks broken down on the hardshoulder.
In my opinion there is very little excuse for hitting an animal the size of a horse on a motorway - galloping towards you around a bendy lane maybe - a motorway no. Not even in the dark.
		
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That&#8217;s just taken the top award for the stupidest post I have ever read on hho
Well done.


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## ILuvCowparsely (27 January 2018)

I personally would love it if this metal fencing was used    its wire with intermittent  pieces like this through it >>      l       l      l     
 If my fields were beside the big roads and                                                                                                    

along the road side of motorways wherever horses or cows or any large animal is grazed to avoid incidents like this.  Many times you travel up motorways there is only 3 rails of post and rail between horses and certain death -0 and wee all know fencing rots and can get broken. 

 I think this is a good idea to stop more rubbernecks http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-stop-rubberneckers-causing-traffic-jams.html


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## Squeak (27 January 2018)

Clodagh said:



			How sad. And very inconvenient! I wonder if it would be wrong to assume the colour and type of these horses?
		
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I live locally to there and it was someone's beloved horses so not the colour or type I think you were thinking of.  The owners are distraught.  

A reminder to us all to double check our fencing and also to ensure we've got our public liability insurance etc all in place


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## Alec Swan (27 January 2018)

ILuvCowparsely said:



			&#8230;&#8230;..                                                                                                  

along the road side of motorways wherever horses or cows or any large animal is grazed to avoid incidents like this.  Many times you travel up motorways there is only 3 rails of post and rail between horses and certain death -0 and wee all know fencing rots and can get broken. 

 &#8230;&#8230;.
		
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I owned and worked in a fencing contracting business,  purely equestrian and agricultural up until about 6 years ago and I often drive on motorways and dual carriageways too and see livestock owners relying on the fencing which was put in place when the motorway was first opened,  and very rarely maintained.  Motorway fences,  except at sites of specific risk &#8212; deer or badger crossing points,  for instance,  simply acts as a demarcation line.  NO other motorway fencing should EVER be relied upon as being stock proof. 

Those who keep livestock of any kind and up against motorways should be aware of the risks.  Just out of interest,  I wonder who's actually responsible,  considering that the land for ALL motorways has at some time been acquired by the route of compulsory purchase.  Are the Highways Depts responsible for maintaining the fences on land which has been purchased - does anyone know?

Alec.


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## OldFogie (27 January 2018)

Alec Swan said:



			......  Just out of interest,  I wonder who's actually responsible,  considering that the land for ALL motorways has at some time been acquired by the route of compulsory purchase. Alec.
		
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As part of the cheeky one-sided deal you get when being turfed off your own land - you get full responsibility and liability for the fencing - in purperpetuity! My mate had his farm cut in half by the M25 and now has 10kms of rotten fence - HS2 have just turned up to build a "temporary access" it will be in place for at least eight years after which I can see another lot of liability.


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## OldFogie (27 January 2018)

Goldenstar said:



			That&#8217;s just taken the top award for the stupidest post I have ever read on hho
Well done.
		
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So would you be an HGV driver or have one as close personal friend then? 

My post has quite a few words in it - do please point out the exact ones you are awarding the Goldstar to.


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## OldFogie (27 January 2018)

ILuvCowparsely said:



			I think this is a good idea to stop more rubbernecks http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-stop-rubberneckers-causing-traffic-jams.html

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This idea would be fine if it didn't take so long to put up and remove. I find the entire ethos prevailing at incident sites counterproductive - the concept of an open free use of the Queen's Highway seems to be put on hold so that the various brands of flourescent jacket wearers can draw themselves up their full importance. O.K. people are injured and humanity dictates we show them decency - even if they were the crazy cause of the damn thing but what's all that measuring and fifty blokes from umpteen "agencies" - while the life blood of the country sits waiting. I think there is need for a kind of Traffic Tsar (very popular a few years ago - we had Tsars for everything) I'd appoint guys who been in charge of aircraft carriers - they know the importance of keeping the damn runway open!


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## Alec Swan (27 January 2018)

OldFogie said:



			As part of the cheeky one-sided deal you get when being turfed off your own land - you get full responsibility and liability for the fencing - in purperpetuity! My mate had his farm cut in half by the M25 and now has 10kms of rotten fence - HS2 have just turned up to build a "temporary access" it will be in place for at least eight years after which I can see another lot of liability.
		
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Really?  Blimey,  that's a bit strong! 

Just out of interest,  around about 1980 the town of Attleborough in Norfolk got a new by-pass which involved the compulsory purchase of land,  obviously.  I have it,  not from the owner's mouth but a close confidant,  that 18 years later and to avoid being done for inheritance tax,  the 'vendor' left the money with Government and on deposit,  taking only the interest.  The sum,  so I understand was considerable!

Alec.


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## Alec Swan (27 January 2018)

OldFogie said:



			This idea would be fine if it didn't take so long to put up and remove. I find the entire ethos prevailing at incident sites counterproductive - the concept of an open free use of the Queen's Highway seems to be put on hold so that the various brands of flourescent jacket wearers can draw themselves up their full importance. O.K. people are injured and humanity dictates we show them decency - even if they were the crazy cause of the damn thing but what's all that measuring and fifty blokes from umpteen "agencies" - while the life blood of the country sits waiting. I think there is need for a kind of Traffic Tsar (very popular a few years ago - we had Tsars for everything) I'd appoint guys who been in charge of aircraft carriers - they know the importance of keeping the damn runway open!
		
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It's all to do with red tape,  recording,  measuring,  assessments and slide rules &#8230;. and the upshot is that these reports tell us what we already knew &#8212; someone was driving like an idiot.  There is no such thing as an 'accident' &#8212; every accident is preventable.

Alec.


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## Cecile (27 January 2018)

Squeak said:



			I live locally to there and it was someone's beloved horses so not the colour or type I think you were thinking of.  The owners are distraught.  

A reminder to us all to double check our fencing and also to ensure we've got our public liability insurance etc all in place 

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So sorry to hear that^^ 

Its one of my worse nightmares as I had a mare who took herself through a village and then cantered straight across the A4 years ago which still brings me out in a cold sweat

Fencing is really taking a battering with these high winds and sodden ground


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## frankster (27 January 2018)

OldFogie said:



			Don't forget that it takes two to tango. Most HGV drivers I see on motorways should not be allowed anywhere near one! They tank along in convoy inches from the one in front, pull out without signals or consideration etc., etc., yet they sit up higher than anyone else giving them an presidented view of the road in front but they still manage to kill folks broken down on the hardshoulder.
In my opinion there is very little excuse for hitting an animal the size of a horse on a motorway - galloping towards you around a bendy lane maybe - a motorway no. Not even in the dark.
		
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Agree100%


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## ycbm (27 January 2018)

frankster said:



			Agree100%
		
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I find it difficult to disagree with someone who doesn't exist.

For those who haven't noticed, OF joined forum a month ago, stormed straight into being a prolific poster and attempts to raise an argument on pretty much every thread he joins. His latest one is to say that his wife, who apparently looks like Cher while he resembles Patrick Swayze, thinks that the taxi rapist's victims deserved it for being drunk.

I'm still waiting for an answer to how he saw Quorn made in an oil refinery  

If he isn't a troll he's a pretty offensive idiot at times , guys, don't rise to it unless you think it's fun (which I do).


PS I have driven an HGV on motorways many times and I would always kill a horse before swerving and risking killing a human. In fact I would go as far as to say that I would deliberately hold my line and my speed, if I had the presence of mind in the moment, in order to kill the horse so that it didn't run into anyone else's path and go through the windscreen of a lower height car and kill the occupants.


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## luckyoldme (28 January 2018)

i was a trucker for 10 years and find the original statement very silly and am amazed to find someone else agreeing with it.


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## OldFogie (28 January 2018)

ycbm said:



			I find it difficult to disagree with someone who doesn't exist.
		
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OMMMMMM ( imagine a Buddha comtemplating).




			..... OF joined forum a month ago, stormed straight into being a prolific poster
		
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Jeez - 11,000 + posts in two years and you call me prolific? 




			.....attempts to raise an argument on pretty much every thread he joins.....
		
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Er hmmm.... I usually join one already well started.




			.... that his wife, who apparently looks like Cher while he resembles Patrick Swayze,
		
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I reckon it's pretty fair to say that my wife looked like this:-https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BERd61bDY7k - not a lookalike but similar. To be fair Swayze was far more dashing than I've ever been - I can't dance to save my life but could probably stand my ground with a calavry sabre.




			..... the taxi rapist's victims deserved it for being drunk.
		
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No! I did NOT say that, neither did my wife - but she does take a very dim view of gross drunkenness (of anyone ) particularly young women.




			I'm still waiting for an answer to how he saw Quorn made in an oil refinery
		
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I was able to see protein being made in an oil refinery because that's where the damn stuff was - it used to be only for cows and was labelled up Liquid Paraffin Animal Protein by the Bibby company as far as I can remember. Quorn uses very similar recovered fungii - the original adverts used to include a voice over that said "it's made from a tiny relative of the mushroom" and so it is. I reckon Ester might know more.




			.... he's a pretty offensive idiot at times....
		
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and at others - I'm a pussy cat.




			PS I have driven an HGV on motorways many times and I would always kill a horse before swerving and risking killing a human. In fact I would go as far as to say that I would deliberately hold my line and my speed, if I had the presence of mind in the moment, in order to kill the horse so that it didn't run into anyone else's path and go through the windscreen of a lower height car and kill the occupants.
		
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That's all well and good but in the Highway Code I read in 1964 it said - keep to a speed from which you can safely stop in the distance you can see and this incudes motorways. I can see the M25 from my upstairs windows and invariably there is far less than one vehicle's length in between herds of HGV - they could be circus elephants trunk to tail.


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## {97702} (28 January 2018)

ycbm said:



			I find it difficult to disagree with someone who doesn't exist.

For those who haven't noticed, OF joined forum a month ago, stormed straight into being a prolific poster .
		
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This bits could also apply to "Keith Beef" who is suddenly posting everywhere too - how odd, two new male prolific posters at the same time


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## Alec Swan (28 January 2018)

^^^^ Yeah,  I know,  and to date,  neither of them banned! 

Alec.


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## Alec Swan (28 January 2018)

OldFogie said:



			&#8230;&#8230;..  - I can't dance to save my life but could probably stand my ground with a calavry sabre. &#8230;&#8230;.. .
		
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Now that may well prove to be of use on here &#8212; when logic fails,  what else is there left? 

Alec.


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## Keith_Beef (28 January 2018)

Lévrier;13714691 said:
			
		


			This bits could also apply to "Keith Beef" who is suddenly posting everywhere too - how odd, two new male prolific posters at the same time 

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I'm not posting everywhere, you know... Just threads that I find interesting and where I either have a question to ask or where I have something to get off my chest.

If ever you think I'm wrong or offensive or objectionable, please feel free to join in.

I assure you, I'm not thin-skinned, I don't take offense easily and I don't bear a grudge.

(After writing that, I just checked up and I admit that both OF and I joined in December 2017 and that at the time of posting OF is at 169 posts and I'm at 218 posts...)


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## {97702} (28 January 2018)

I&#8217;m very pleased for you that you have those attributes, they will come in useful on the forum at some point I&#8217;m sure  when you&#8217;ve been around as long as I have (long before 2012 incidentally) you tend to notice trends emerging with a certain cynicism, so it is always nice to be proved wrong


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## popsdosh (28 January 2018)

OldFogie said:



			.




That's all well and good but in the Highway Code I read in 1964 it said - keep to a speed from which you can safely stop in the distance you can see and this incudes motorways. I can see the M25 from my upstairs windows and invariably there is far less than one vehicle's length in between herds of HGV - they could be circus elephants trunk to tail.
		
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Have you ever asked why they drive like that? generally they trust each other and have similar braking ability. Im afraid if they leave a gap of any size some idiot in a car does unpredictable things in the gaps. Try asking a professional lorry driver some time it may enlighten you.


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## ester (28 January 2018)

don't bring me into it. 

I know f all about quorn


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## ycbm (28 January 2018)

OldFogie said:



			That's all well and good but in the Highway Code I read in 1964 it said - keep to a speed from which you can safely stop in the distance you can see and this incudes motorways. I can see the M25 from my upstairs windows and invariably there is far less than one vehicle's length in between herds of HGV - they could be circus elephants trunk to tail.
		
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So you would stamp on your brakes to save a horse that suddenly runs into your path and let the vehicle tailgating you run into your rear, would you?  When I was taught to drive I was taught not to make any sudden changes to save an animal.






			I was able to see protein being made in an oil refinery because that's where the damn stuff was - it used to be only for cows and was labelled up Liquid Paraffin Animal Protein by the Bibby company as far as I can remember. Quorn uses very similar recovered fungii - the original adverts used to include a voice over that said "it's made from a tiny relative of the mushroom" and so it is. I reckon Ester might know more.
		
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There isn't one mention I can find anywhere online about the production of protein from petrochemicals. Can you find me a source?  I think you may be confusing the fact the petrochemicals can be used to split out proteins from plant sources?


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## Alec Swan (28 January 2018)

ester said:



			&#8230;&#8230;..

I know f all about quorn  

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Ah,  now there I can be of help;  The Quorn are a first class pack,  I'll have you know! 

Alec.


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## Keith_Beef (28 January 2018)

ycbm said:



			So you would stamp on your brakes to save a horse that suddenly runs into your path and let the vehicle tailgating you run into your rear, would you?  When I was taught to drive I was taught not to make any sudden changes to save an animal.






There isn't one mention I can find anywhere online about the production of protein from petrochemicals. Can you find me a source?  I think you may be confusing the fact the petrochemicals can be used to split out proteins from plant sources?
		
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There's almost certainly a way to use petroleum hydrocarbons as food for something in order to produce single-cell protein (SCP). I found a few papers describing the use of petrochemical wastewater mixed with peptone and a trace of dipotassium phosphate. It was apparently used in Italy until banned in 1977 for economic reasons. I suppose it was judged more important to recover the hydrocarbons from the wastewater, rather than to use it as feed for SCP production.

Whether it would be acceptable for human consumption, though is a different question...


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## ycbm (28 January 2018)

Alec Swan said:



			Ah,  now there I can be of help;  The Quorn are a first class pack,  I'll have you know! 

Alec.
		
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I heard they were a bunch of fun guys


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## ester (28 January 2018)

I think ycbm just killed the internet for the evening...... :rolleyes3:  

out of my area  as a southerner, and probably my capabilities .


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## Alec Swan (28 January 2018)

Keith_Beef said:



			There's almost certainly a way to use petroleum hydrocarbons as food for something in order to produce single-cell protein (SCP). I found a few papers describing the use of petrochemical wastewater mixed with peptone and a trace of dipotassium phosphate. It was apparently used in Italy until banned in 1977 for economic reasons. I suppose it was judged more important to recover the hydrocarbons from the wastewater, rather than to use it as feed for SCP production.

Whether it would be acceptable for human consumption, though is a different question...
		
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You'll imagine my dismay when I bought in some high energy feed blocks for my sheep and found that they were based on urea and from which,  so I was advised,  protein was extracted.  I'll be honest,  I was truly shocked.  

They were sent back and I reverted back to 'straights'.

Alec.


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## fburton (29 January 2018)

ycbm said:



			So you would stamp on your brakes to save a horse that suddenly runs into your path and let the vehicle tailgating you run into your rear, would you?  When I was taught to drive I was taught not to make any sudden changes to save an animal.
		
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A valid point. Regarding city driving, I was taught to slam on the brakes for a football but not a dog, for the obvious reason. However, if someone is tailgating me I do try to get out of that situation or at least make things safer for myself and the tailgater.


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## fburton (29 January 2018)

ycbm said:



			There isn't one mention I can find anywhere online about the production of protein from petrochemicals. Can you find me a source?  I think you may be confusing the fact the petrochemicals can be used to split out proteins from plant sources?
		
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"I'm sure I saw it on _Tomorrow's World_ once."


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## fburton (29 January 2018)

ycbm said:



			I heard they were a bunch of fun guys 

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But with questionable morels.


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## Archangel (29 January 2018)

ycbm said:



			For those who haven't noticed, OF joined forum a month ago, stormed straight into being a prolific poster and attempts to raise an argument on pretty much every thread he joins.
		
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The posting style reminds me of FirstClassAlan - anyone remember him?




			if he isn't a troll he's a pretty offensive idiot at times.
		
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FirstClassAlan was a bit  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 but he did liven things up a bit.


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## ycbm (29 January 2018)

fburton said:



			But with questionable morels.
		
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Boom boom!!  Very good, FB


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## ycbm (29 January 2018)

Archangel said:



			The posting style reminds me of FirstClassAlan - anyone remember him?



FirstClassAlan was a bit  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 but he did liven things up a bit.
		
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I don't remember him. I think Old Fogie is a lot of fun as long as no-one gets upset or takes anything he says as true without double checking first.


What a great emoji!


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## Clodagh (29 January 2018)

fburton said:



			But with questionable morels.
		
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I actually geddit! Very clever.


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## OldFogie (29 January 2018)

ycbm said:



			.... I think Old Fogie is a lot of fun ...
		
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Well, Gee, shucks! Most people would probably say that I am a "fun guy" - out in the real world I usually greet disaster with laughter more than tears.




			as long as no-one gets upset...
		
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that could be difficult by the looks of it as folk here seem to take offence very easily, often seeing one like my mare saw ghosties in the hedge.




			..... or takes anything he says as true without double checking first.
		
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I would be the first to reccommend double checking - so long as one bares in mind that most things written down were originally wrong and have been repeated ever since by folk who couldn't be bothered to double check. 





			What a great emoji!
		
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I might adopt it as an avatar! Reminds me of Hymns Ancient & Modern (117) if I remember - "his chariots of wrath, deep thunderclouds form - and dark is his path on the wings of a storm."  Hahaha.


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## OldFogie (29 January 2018)

BTW - in fifty six years of driving - I've "slammed on my brakes" once - the emergency stop in my driving test. Ever since then I followed my Chief Flying Instructor's famous phrase on avoiding incidents that might call upon superior flying skills - KEEP LOOKING OUT OF F'ING WINDOW!


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## ycbm (29 January 2018)

OldFogie said:



			BTW - in fifty six years of driving - I've "slammed on my brakes" once - the emergency stop in my driving test.
		
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If you have spent fifty six years driving and never had anyone pull out on you unexpectedly or a cat/dog/deer/sheep/child come out of nowhere,  then you've led an extremely sheltered driving existence.  If your experience was normal then there would be no need for an emergency stop in the driving test.


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## HEM (29 January 2018)

OldFogie said:



			BTW - in fifty six years of driving - I've "slammed on my brakes" once - the emergency stop in my driving test. Ever since then I followed my Chief Flying Instructor's famous phrase on avoiding incidents that might call upon superior flying skills - KEEP LOOKING OUT OF F'ING WINDOW!
		
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Now that is a ridiculous claim. I have been driving only 3 years and I have a number of times needed to 'slam on my breaks' - not necessary anything to do with my driving but the people/objects around me.


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## OldFogie (29 January 2018)

HEM said:



			Now that is a ridiculous claim.
		
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Hmmm, well look, I'm sort of new here but in the relatively short time I've been posting, I get the impression that most folks are pretty touchy on personal criticisms. I put it to you, click on my posts, read my stuff, do I look like the kind of person who writes "ridiculous" material? I've been in large businesses, done important stuff with stern faces look at me expectantly - when I post a simple little thing on here - kindly accept it for what it is. I do not and have not slammed on my brakes. Mind you, I've probably p.o.'d quite a few folk behind me.




			.....and I have a number of times needed to 'slam on my breaks' - not necessary anything to do with my driving but the people/objects around me.
		
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And I bet they all could have been avoided with a little more attention. I'm sorry to keep bring up flying but it's appropriate again - Aviate, Navigate and Communicate - notice the order? Fly the damn plane, know where you are going and then tell people.

I will grant you that there could be scenarios where other people cause one problems - I have watched World's Craziest Drivers but most of those incidents take two to tango.


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## HEM (29 January 2018)

I don't believe you are touching on anyone's personal criticisms and I also don't see how being in large businesses alters your driving capability. I am also currently in a large business doing 'important stuff' maybe that changes your views on the way I drive? 

Personally I don't know how to fly a plane and I will be the first to admit that, but I do have a driving license and as previously stated there are reasons you are taught to do an emergency stop. Don't judge a book.


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## Alec Swan (29 January 2018)

Archangel said:



			The posting style reminds me of FirstClassAlan - anyone remember him?

FirstClassAlan was a bit  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 but he did liven things up a bit.
		
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Alan was a thoroughly decent bloke.  He did go on a bit,  we know,  but he left when he was hounded by two women on here both making the most shameful and ill-founded accusations &#8212; it wasn't a day when HHO was at it's best.  

Alec.


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## OldFogie (29 January 2018)

HEM said:



			I don't believe you are touching on anyone's personal criticisms
		
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Sorry, you seem to have missed my drift - my point is - other posters get the hump very quickly even if they have to imagine an insult.




			... and I also don't see how being in large businesses alters your driving capability
		
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Not necessarily no, but it does infer a certain competence in stating matters correctly. Lives depended on my decisions (or at least I'd be blamed for them ending!) therefore what I write is not ridiculous - you may not agee, that is your prerogative but merely another opinion not a fact.




			..... I am also currently in a large business doing 'important stuff' maybe that changes your views
		
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Well I hope you can run it without slamming the brakes on. (that was far too easy.)




			...as previously stated there are reasons you are taught to do an emergency stop.
		
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Well, since you bring it up - why? Everything in the modern method of tuitition is geared ( note the motoring analogy) to thinking ahead and foreseeing potential problems. I could probably see the necessity of it say, in my test days because half the folk turning up for one could hardly control the car and the idea of "if in doubt - both feet out" was a good way of the examiner checking to see if you could still steer in a stressful situation but it should probably be condemned to the historical scrapyard.


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## Keith_Beef (29 January 2018)

OldFogie said:



			Aviate, Navigate and Communicate - notice the order? Fly the damn plane, know where you are going and then tell people.
		
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Isn't the correct order Communicate, Navigate, Aviate?

As in


Communicate: file your flight plan that you want to go from A to B
Navigate: work out point A to point B taking into account wind that would make you deviate from a straight line,
Aviate: start engines, taxi, take off, fly, land, taxi.


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## OldFogie (30 January 2018)

Keith_Beef said:



			Isn't the correct order Communicate, Navigate, Aviate?
		
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Ah, Keith - I think you are confusing general commonsense with particularly partisan opinion expressed in bombastic terms within selective groups - try this :- https://www.pea.com/blog/posts/6-pilot-rules-that-everyone-should-live-by/

It's still not compulsory to file a flight plan for general aviation (little planes) - it makes the search for a downed one so much more exciting when you have no idea where to look! 

To be fair to the spirit of A.N.C. - it really refers to what you should be doing actually in the aircraft while in control - you'll be amazed by the amount of headless chickens get to be in the lefthand seat! I wouldn't like to unduly worry the nervous flyers here but this is truly enlightening :- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJND9CE7Euc  where no less than three, highly qualified, well educated men managed to drop a fully loaded Airbus into sea while it was working perfectly.


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## ycbm (30 January 2018)

Well, since you bring it up - why? Everything in the modern method of tuitition is geared ( note the motoring analogy) to thinking ahead and foreseeing potential problems. I could probably see the necessity of it say, in my test days because half the folk turning up for one could hardly control the car and the idea of "if in doubt - both feet out" was a good way of the examiner checking to see if you could still steer in a stressful situation but it should probably be condemned to the historical scrapyard.
		
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OF please don't treat us like idiots just to get IPC to pay you to get the view count up.

The emergency stop is taught and required because people, especially children, step/run/bike/skate out from between parked cars where they can't be seen and  into the road where they might be killed, on a regular basis.


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## Sussexbythesea (30 January 2018)

Please stay OldFogie I dont know whether youre a plant or otherwise but your posts amuse me. Plus this forum is dominated by a handful of opinionated people and its entertaining that youre winding them up intentionally or not


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## fburton (30 January 2018)

ycbm said:



			The emergency stop is taught and required because people, especially children, step/run/bike/skate out from between parked cars where they can't be seen and  into the road where they might be killed, on a regular basis.
		
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This happened to me twice. Once a child ran out on to the road. It was small enough not to be visible above the top of the parked vehicles. Fortunately I was going at 25mph on a 30mph road, slower than the limit because of all the parked cars, and slow enough that when I slammed on the brakes I stopped with a couple of yards to spare. I cannot be sure that with more gentle braking I wouldn't have hit the child.

The other time, I was driving through Kirkintilloch and a dog ran out of the front garden and on to the road. I did an emergency stop (I knew there wasn't a car immediately behind me) but still hit the dog. Fortunately it was just bruised and shaken. The owner was apologetic, and I called by the nearest police station to report the incident. Again, the outcome would have been worse for the dog (and possibly my car) if I hadn't braked so hard.

That's two occasions in decades of driving. Emergency braking _is_ rare, but may still be necessary even if one maintains a high level of vigilance and anticipation.


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## ycbm (30 January 2018)

Sussexbythesea said:



			Please stay OldFogie I dont know whether youre a plant or otherwise but your posts amuse me. Plus this forum is dominated by a handful of opinionated people and its entertaining that youre winding them up intentionally or not 

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Yes, stay!   I've already posted several times that I find Old Fogie amusing. He's great fun, but on this thread he's been stupid and insulting to good drivers out there who know how to use an emergency stop and why, and don't blame a lorry driver for killing a horse on a motorway. It's a great shame that we don't have as many posts these days so that those of us who still post a lot look like we are dominating. But since the forum needs to sell advertising and can't if it doesn't get visits, you really should be thanking us through your gritted teeth   And there's not much point posting if you don't have an opinion, is there


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## ycbm (30 January 2018)

fburton said:



			This happened to me twice. Once a child ran out on to the road. It was small enough not to be visible above the top of the parked vehicles. Fortunately I was going at 25mph on a 30mph road, slower than the limit because of all the parked cars, and slow enough that when I slammed on the brakes I stopped with a couple of yards to spare. I cannot be sure that with more gentle braking I wouldn't have hit the child.

The other time, I was driving through Kirkintilloch and a dog ran out of the front garden and on to the road. I did an emergency stop (I knew there wasn't a car immediately behind me) but still hit the dog. Fortunately it was just bruised and shaken. The owner was apologetic, and I called by the nearest police station to report the incident. Again, the outcome would have been worse for the dog (and possibly my car) if I hadn't braked so hard.

That's two occasions in decades of driving. Emergency braking _is_ rare, but may still be necessary even if one maintains a high level of vigilance and anticipation.
		
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Exactly FB.


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## Ambers Echo (30 January 2018)

A young child ran out between parked cars straight in front of me. It was in a school zone so 20mph speed limit. I was going about 10mph because it was busy with little kids and parked cars! So plenty of forethought and anticipation of potential problems. But I still had to emergency brake and missed the child by no more than a yard.


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## Sussexbythesea (30 January 2018)

ycbm said:



			Yes, stay!   I've already posted several times that I find Old Fogie amusing. He's great fun, but on this thread he's been stupid and insulting to good drivers out there who know how to use an emergency stop and why, and don't blame a lorry driver for killing a horse on a motorway. It's a great shame that we don't have as many posts these days so that those of us who still post a lot look like we are dominating. But since the forum needs to sell advertising and can't if it doesn't get visits, you really should be thanking us through your gritted teeth   And there's not much point posting if you don't have an opinion, is there 

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I do thank you YCBM I think we are chalk and cheese as people in many ways but I weirdly I appreciate the debates you bring to HHO even if it sometimes drives me nuts   I dont always have the energy or mental strength to get involved directly though it depends how delicate Im feeling so OF can do it instead


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## popsdosh (30 January 2018)

ycbm said:



			Exactly FB.
		
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Had to take a H cat test last year for tracked vehicles still had to do an emergency stop LOL. So many open mouths in the centre of town with a 600hp 28ton challenger racing around they still do 40k. It was the most worrying experience in my life!


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## Keith_Beef (30 January 2018)

popsdosh said:



			Had to take a H cat test last year for tracked vehicles still had to do an emergency stop LOL. So many open mouths in the centre of town with a 600hp 28ton challenger racing around they still do 40k. It was the most worrying experience in my life!
		
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On my list of things to do is get back my category H entitlement. I had it on my old UK licence, but lost it in the switch to a French licence.


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## popsdosh (30 January 2018)

Keith_Beef said:



			On my list of things to do is get back my category H entitlement. I had it on my old UK licence, but lost it in the switch to a French licence. 

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You wont get it back without taking the test! Assuming of course that you hadnt.
This may raise a smile for those who think they can take liberties with big vehicles https://www.facebook.com/AwesomeMachines121/videos/175892716329590/


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## Keith_Beef (30 January 2018)

popsdosh said:



			You wont get it back without taking the test! Assuming of course that you hadnt.
This may raise a smile for those who think they can take liberties with big vehicles https://www.facebook.com/AwesomeMachines121/videos/175892716329590/

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Yes, I've found several places that do the training and test in the UK. 

I've not found anywhere in France to do it, yes, though I've not searched very hard.

France has some pretty strict and cumbersome laws about military equipment, which might explain why private ownership of tracked AFV's is less common that in the UK. I might have to take the training and test in a bulldozer or digger.


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## popsdosh (30 January 2018)

Keith_Beef said:



			Yes, I've found several places that do the training and test in the UK. 

I've not found anywhere in France to do it, yes, though I've not searched very hard.

France has some pretty strict and cumbersome laws about military equipment, which might explain why private ownership of tracked AFV's is less common that in the UK. I might have to take the training and test in a bulldozer or digger.
		
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Sorry my Challenger is an agricultural tracked tractor! France has all sorts of strange vehicle rules ! Find a friendly farmer with one and just apply for a test its just Highway code on top of the driving. I was unlucky as I was taken into town most are carried out near the vehicle base . I also had the misfortune of having a trainee examiner doing her first test being overseen by a senior examiner .


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## Keith_Beef (30 January 2018)

popsdosh said:



			Sorry my Challenger is an agricultural tracked tractor! France has all sorts of strange vehicle rules ! Find a friendly farmer with one and just apply for a test its just Highway code on top of the driving. I was unlucky as I was taken into town most are carried out near the vehicle base . I also had the misfortune of having a trainee examiner doing her first test being overseen by a senior examiner .
		
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I suppose that if you can hitch a ploughshare to the back, it's agricultural.

France's restrictions are such that you can't legally buy a gas mask over here. There might be exceptions for obsolete ones or for antiques. But modern ones are in the list of "matériel de guerre" and prohibited from private ownership.


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## OldFogie (30 January 2018)

Sussexbythesea said:



			Please stay OldFogie I dont know whether youre a plant or otherwise but your posts amuse me.
		
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Excuse me? I amuse you huh?     Caution don't watch if you're easily offended! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWINtUCshxY




			.... this forum is dominated by a handful of opinionated people ...
		
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I genuinely admire opinionated people - I am one myself but also very openminded - I can quite easily slip from arguing for something to being against without declaring what I truly believe. Most people do not reveal their true feelings to others in agreement but will quickly challenge something they find objectionable.


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## Rowreach (30 January 2018)

OldFogie said:



			I would be the first to reccommend double checking - so long as one bares in mind that most things written down were originally wrong and have been repeated ever since by folk who couldn't be bothered to double check.
		
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*bares??


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## OldFogie (30 January 2018)

Oops and there's me going on about double checking - and I think I let the damn spellcheck change it! hahah.


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## Rowreach (30 January 2018)

OldFogie said:



			Oops and there's me going on about double checking - and I think I let the damn spellcheck change it! hahah.
		
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There's something wrong with your spellchecker if it let you put "reccommend"


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## Sussexbythesea (30 January 2018)

OldFogie said:



			Excuse me? I amuse you huh?     Caution don't watch if you're easily offended! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWINtUCshxY

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Are you intimating that you have mafia connections?  should I be scared? 



OldFogie said:



			I genuinely admire opinionated people - I am one myself but also very openminded - I can quite easily slip from arguing for something to being against without declaring what I truly believe. Most people do not reveal their true feelings to others in agreement but will quickly challenge something they find objectionable.
		
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Me too except after many years on the forum its often the same people and sometimes I think it puts people off posting and its often noted the forum is now slow well maybe thats one of the reasons - clearly this doesnt apply to you


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## Alec Swan (30 January 2018)

Sussexbythesea said:



			&#8230;&#8230;.. . Plus this forum is dominated by a handful of opinionated people and &#8230;&#8230;..
		
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The worry that this opinionated bod has,  is and as you seem to imply,  it's so easy to imagine readers with a rather glazed look when reading my diatribes.  

I'll admit to becoming rather bored with the sound of my own typed thoughts and imagine that others must feel the same being equally bored with my assertions.  I don't post anywhere near as often as I used to,  and that's simply because I imagine that others will be as bored with me,  as I am - and I am!!! 

Alec.


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## ycbm (30 January 2018)

Sussexbythesea said:



			Are you intimating that you have mafia connections?  should I be scared? 



Me too except after many years on the forum it&#8217;s often the same people and sometimes I think it puts people off posting and it&#8217;s often noted the forum is now slow well maybe that&#8217;s one of the reasons - clearly this doesn&#8217;t apply to you 

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I would say this, wouldn't I  ? But I'm not sure that's true. This forum was wild and nasty back ten years ago when I first joined to promote Spinal Research,  yet it had thousands of members. The most we get online now is a few thousand viewers and a couple of hundred members. Yet in 2013 the record was set at over 23,000 viewing at the same time. Just before my reincarnation as this login in 2015, I was torn to absolute shreds  on a libellous, lying thread that I had to force the forum administrators to delete by appealing to a Director level person. At one point I was barred from posting (for having two logins, which is not even against the forum rules!)  while members were being allowed to post more lies about me that I had no way of correcting. At the time that debacle started there were 4,800 active members and in the following month it reduced to 2,200 members, the rest presumably appalled by what they saw happen,  and has never recovered its previous levels.

But it has increased in numbers since that time, while posting by prolific posters like me has probably reduced rather than increased because less is going on to comment on and quite a few have left altogether.


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## OldFogie (30 January 2018)

Rowreach said:



			There's something wrong with your spellchecker if it let you put "reccommend" 

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Ah, that's one of my favourite "deliberate" mistakes - my spellchecker switches on and off to suit itself! I have several machines plugged in down here in my office and they spend more time talking to Bill Gates & Co than listening to me!!! I can see the drive light flashing away on one now!


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## OldFogie (30 January 2018)

Sussexbythesea said:



			Are you intimating that you have mafia connections?
		
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No not the Goodfellas kind but I did build a house for one of the local Bosses - funnily enough ( and if you doubt me ask any builder ) up to last year, his was the only fully paid up account in my life a sort of honest crook. I grew up on an estate where it was quite natural to progress from petty crime up through the ranks of young hoods to be not far short of Richie & Co - I also grew quick so there is the added pressure of "let me fix him for you Boss."  While still in those circles I witnessed a couple of occassions when some member of the group would be picked on just like the film ...... but NOT so funny!




			....the forum is now slow well maybe that&#8217;s one of the reasons - clearly this doesn&#8217;t apply to you.
		
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For the moment I'm giving my Conspiracy friends a miss - you can only repeat yourself so many times!


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## OldFogie (30 January 2018)

ycbm said:



			......... and has never recovered its previous levels.
		
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Isn't that pretty common for on-line stuff? Even real world restaurants have to keep changing their menu to keep the till ringing and webfolk seem far more fickle - I used to contribute to a general current affairs site that had millions of hits but has since disappeared. 911 spawned literally hundreds of weird but interesting sites, again millions of hits and thousands of member posters - most have gone. Once that ad ticker reaches the point where the administrators have to dip in their pockets - plug pulled.


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## ycbm (30 January 2018)

OldFogie said:



			Isn't that pretty common for on-line stuff? Even real world restaurants have to keep changing their menu to keep the till ringing and webfolk seem far more fickle - I used to contribute to a general current affairs site that had millions of hits but has since disappeared.
		
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Exactly the point I was making OF. That prolific posters, even opinionated ones like you and I, are unlikely to be responsible for the decline in posting on the forum.


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