# Competing at a lower level to 'warm up' - rant!



## Dumbo (9 December 2014)

I took my tb to his first dressage show on sunday. Great day out and home with a third which is a big achievement! 

It was a very small class. Only 6 of us in the intro. I was first in then watched a couple after mine and felt very confident that I'd be placed highly! I went away and came back to see the horses warming up for I assumed prelim/novice, in the arena so guessed that intro class was over. Got chatting to a girl who was friends with these competitors for her to say they were using intro as a warm up! 
Anyway, they were placed first and second. I can't help but feel annoyed and cheated that they were competing in the lowest level just to 'warm up' when there were 4 of us in the class who had all worked really hard for our first competition and should have been placed higher!!
I know some events have restricted and open classes but I think these people just 'warming up' should state they weren't competing for a place and purely warming up?! 
I know of one lady in my RC who is at Novice level but enters intro's so she can win and this infuriates me!!


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## dressagelove (9 December 2014)

Yeah this is a fairly common thing, it's known as 'pot hunting' I think. 

To be fair, I always do two classes at competitions, and always do one lower and one higher class, so you could construe that as a warm up class. My chap is BD Elementary, but has been off for some time with injury. I\m getting him fit again now and thinking about tootling out to some competitions to get him going again, and thinking about doing a prelim. But because he has had so much success higher up the levels, I wouldn't dream of doing it competitively, I will ride HC. 

I think it's okay to use an Intro as a warm up if you are then doing a prelim, but I don't think you should ride several levels above and come down the levels just to win. Swings and roundabouts I guess. 

Congrats on your third!


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## Dizzydancer (9 December 2014)

I used to enter intro and prelim, now I enter novice and prelim. Originally I was actually competing in intro and pushing for prelim just to see what happened and now it's the same I feel I have a better chance in prelim so am competitive as we are only just stepping into novice and its more practice runs to get judges feedback. 
I can see why your annoyed esowcially if they are competing much higher levels but it goes on all the time.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (9 December 2014)

jesus wept just get over it!

if they are eligible, they are not breaking rules, there is no issue.

work harder, get better, win more, simple.

It is absolutely common and correct for a horse to be working several levels above what it competes at so that what it has to do in the ring is easy peasy and not on a wing and a prayer.

if the horse is hot, or stressy, or had a previous bad experience, it may need a dead easy class to settle it, before the harder class and who are you to say they shouldnt? Again, as long as not breaking rules, it is not an issue and not worth getting worked up over.

as for those you feel only do it to win-unless you to wish to remain at lower levels forever in order to win, you are going to fly past them up the levels and it wont be your problem any more 

chill.


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## TGM (9 December 2014)

I don't see any problem in riding an Intro test before doing a Prelim, as it is just one level difference and in fact it is probably the norm for riders to do one higher and one lower level test when they compete.  Perhaps you could look out for competitions where there are restrictions on who can enter Intro classes (ie never to have won at Prelim etc), if you feel that is more suitable for you.


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## wench (9 December 2014)

I went to a show a couple of weeks ago. There was a horse in the prelim that has had some very good dressage scores at BE90 eventing earlier on this year. Even on an exceptionally good day, there is no way in hell I would ever stand any chance of beating that horse and rider. But it's tough. They are eligible to compete in that class, so they do. It's tough.


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## Matafleur (9 December 2014)

But BE90 is the same level as Prelim?! It's easier then the higher prelim tests in fact! I'm afraid I agree with PS on this, I'm constantly being beaten by people that are better than me, the only way to beat them is to stop whinging and start training!


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## Shay (9 December 2014)

The only way to avoid this is to affiliate and then remain in the restricted classes for which others might be over qualified.  Other than that - I'm afraid its just a fact of life.  You think it is bad with adults - you should see what happens with kids!


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## Perfect_Pirouette (9 December 2014)

I don&#8217;t think there is anything wrong with competing in an Intro and a Prelim on the same day, or a Prelim and a Novice on the same day, or a Novice/Ele on the same day and so on. Most people like to do 2 tests when they go out and not every Centre will run 2 tests of the same level, also, it is often nice to do a test a level or 2 below what it is working at home to get the horse and rider&#8217;s confidence up.
I do get what you are saying though, I often compete against someone BD who won&#8217;t move up to Elementary because &#8216;The horse isn&#8217;t scoring well enough at Novice yet.&#8217; This horse has done about 9 Novices, won nearly every single one and if you look up its record, its lowest Novice score is 64% and highest is 73% with the average being around 69% To me (and I&#8217;m sure the majority of other people) very late 60&#8217;s, low 70&#8217;s is a GOOD score at BD and if you are consistently getting it every time out (and winning) and you know it&#8217;s not just a fluke, why wouldn&#8217;t you have a bash at the higher level? Hell, what do they want, 90% before they&#8217;ll move up? I guess the points system will soon be moving them up whether they like it or not.
So yes, I can see both sides. It is nice to do two tests and have one (especially if it&#8217;s a non-qualifier) as more of a &#8216;warm up&#8217; where you&#8217;re not too fussed about placing&#8217;s equally though, constantly competing at a level where the horse could get around with its eyes closed and still win is not something I agree with.


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## wench (9 December 2014)

Matafleur said:



			But BE90 is the same level as Prelim?! It's easier then the higher prelim tests in fact! I'm afraid I agree with PS on this, I'm constantly being beaten by people that are better than me, the only way to beat them is to stop whinging and start training!
		
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Point is they are leagues above me... even if competing in the same class as me... but not point in moaning about it, as they are eligible to be in it.


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## rara007 (9 December 2014)

Let the best person (that's following to rules) win I say! Everyone started somewhere. 
I often do two classes at two levels, sometimes the earlier one is a warm-up, sometimes the second is a trial/just to see if we can get round it, sometimes Ill even do the prelim and the harder of the two novices if it suits my non textbook ponies better. Always well within the rules though  If I was going to moan I'd moan at people having purpose bred horses totally outclassing my ponies (when the horses get it right) but obviously that's invalid- if they're better than me on the day they're better!


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## crabbymare (9 December 2014)

When you do your first prelim you may decide to do an intro first and as you progress you may well decide to do a prelim and a novice. to someone out doing their first test you could be seen to be warming up in the lower class. as long as the rules allow the horse and rider combination to enter that class there is nothing wrong with it so just keep training until you are better than them


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## ester (9 December 2014)

BE90 is definitely less than half the prelim tests! If they are still leagues above you then you just need to get better! Nothing wrong with doing prelim and intro for a warm-up/let the horses see the arena etc IMO.


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## meardsall_millie (9 December 2014)

Perfect_Pirouette said:



			I often compete against someone BD who won&#8217;t move up to Elementary because &#8216;The horse isn&#8217;t scoring well enough at Novice yet.&#8217; This horse has done about 9 Novices, won nearly every single one and if you look up its record, its lowest Novice score is 64% and highest is 73% with the average being around 69% To me (and I&#8217;m sure the majority of other people) very late 60&#8217;s, low 70&#8217;s is a GOOD score at BD and if you are consistently getting it every time out (and winning) and you know it&#8217;s not just a fluke, why wouldn&#8217;t you have a bash at the higher level? Hell, what do they want, 90% before they&#8217;ll move up? I guess the points system will soon be moving them up whether they like it or not.
		
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Why? Because they are probably,  quite legitimately, protecting their rider group.

Doing too much too quickly puts you in the Open sections and can affect what you're able to qualify for.  It also means you really are playing with the Big Boys and many people don't want to do that.


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## NooNoo59 (9 December 2014)

I have come across this in showing in Amateur Showing Society Classes so that is for true amateurs that do not make a living from horses.  So the lady that won the class did tempi changes and canter half pass in her individual show, the horse has competed up to advanced level in dressage, she breeds and trains and advertises this on her lorry and website.  I mentioned this to the organisers of the show and they said there was nothing they could do as they do not know all the competitors individually, interestingly the judge was the daughter of one of the show organisers and she called this woman forward using her first name so she did know who she was.  In a way I felt sorry for her, if I was that good and had a horse that talented I would not compete in classes of that level, what is the point? When I used to jump, once I was regularly getting placed at a height I would then move up to the next level.  I do not compete at these shows anymore as I do not agree with paying £15 for a class and then the organisers not sticking to the rules of the society under which they are running the class, and this is now to do with not winning etc, its just being judged against people of the same standing i.e. true amateurs.  Its tricky with dressage but I think competing in the class below is not that bad, if they were at novice and still doing Intro I would question that.  The trouble is all events are struggling to make a profit so they are not going to turn away entries unless they have very good reason. My instructor always tells me to be content with your own achievement in what ever you do, not too judge yourself against other people.  I try to stick to this, having had an horrendous accident years ago in a horsebox on the way to an event, if we arrive and return safely I am happy.


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## Perfect_Pirouette (9 December 2014)

meardsall_millie said:



			Why? Because they are probably,  quite legitimately, protecting their rider group.

Doing too much too quickly puts you in the Open sections and can affect what you're able to qualify for.  It also means you really are playing with the Big Boys and many people don't want to do that.
		
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No, I don&#8217;t think it has anything to do with protecting their rider group.

And as far as &#8216;playing with the big boys&#8217; is concerned, why not? Surely that&#8217;s what everyone wants to do? The horse consistently scores well, I don&#8217;t think moving up 1 level would dramatically reduce their scores (though I could be wrong of course) as I have seen it warm up plenty of times and it is working at medium anyway and doing some nice work. The only difference I can see is that they may be up against better quality riders and horses and therefore may not be able to take home a red one all the time like they do now.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (9 December 2014)

if they want to protect rider group they can always go training (as NMT has done with Fig all year at adv med) but of course then they wont *win*.

so i do get that some people play the game,but if playing the game is within the rules, all you can do is try and beat them fair and square.

i wouldnt get too worried really. NMT regularly competes against a horse that has been doing medium for years and years..............sometimes she beats it and sometimes she doesnt...............no reason to stress either way!


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## meardsall_millie (9 December 2014)

Perfect_Pirouette said:



			No, I dont think it has anything to do with protecting their rider group.

And as far as playing with the big boys is concerned, why not? Surely thats what everyone wants to do? The horse consistently scores well, I dont think moving up 1 level would dramatically reduce their scores (though I could be wrong of course) as I have seen it warm up plenty of times and it is working at medium anyway and doing some nice work. The only difference I can see is that they may be up against better quality riders and horses and therefore may not be able to take home a red one all the time like they do now.
		
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But why should they have to move up a level if they don't want to? 

They have 124 available horse points at Novice. That's a possible 5 or 6 Regional Championships they could contest at Restricted if they so wished. If they move up to Elementary and get 15 points then they're in Open at Novice which is a totally different ball game and extremely difficult to qualify from.

No it's not how I would operate as I'm keen to progress but some people really do like to win or be well placed - and if they are operating within the rules and within their comfort zone,  why not? Who the heck are we to pass judgement? !


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## MileAMinute (9 December 2014)

meardsall_millie said:



			No it's not how I would operate as I'm keen to prgre   Some people really do like to win or be well placed - and if they are operating within the rules and within their comfort zone,  why not? Who the heck are we to pass judgement? !
		
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This. My 5yo is only now just getting ready to compete prelim properly after a year of intro as we had canter issues, but I would like him to keep progressing.

However, when it comes to jumping, I am a total wuss and so will probably go no higher than a 2ft3 class, well, on him at least as he needs a confident rider as the course gets trickier/higher. But I'm comfortable and not breaking any rules within that so I'm happy to stay in my comfort zone and not progress.


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## Perfect_Pirouette (9 December 2014)

They don't have to move up a level, they may be forced to once they are out of points, but they don&#8217;t have to willingly.

Unfortunately, people will pass judgment, that&#8217;s life, you can&#8217;t please everyone. My only gripe is their reason for not moving up &#8216;because the horse &#8216;isn&#8217;t scoring well at Novice yet.&#8217; Now I know scoring is subjective and what is &#8216;good&#8217; for someone may not be good for another, but I would say the majority of amateurs would consider late 60&#8217;s/low 70&#8217;s very reasonable. 

Anyway, can&#8217;t say I lose sleep over it and am not overly bothered, but thought I would use it as an example of what I (note, I!) consider pot hunting.


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## Apercrumbie (9 December 2014)

I don't have any problems with this tbh - they've paid the entry fee same as me and 'warm up' tests are very useful, particularly for hot horses.  But then again, I'm only competitive against myself - I aim to ride as well as I can and get as good a score as possible.  If there are better people than me on the day (and normally there are many  ) then good for them, it's no skin off my nose.


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## cptrayes (9 December 2014)

I think it is a completely different issue doing an Intro as a warm up level to using any other level as a warm up class. Intro classes are walk and trot only. They were designed for people and horses who simply aren't ready to do a Prelim, to allow them the experience of competing and possibly getting a frilly,  not for people who can't (or even worse, can)  win a Prelim and want to win something.

I don't care whether it's within the rules or not (and at the centre I go to it's not) , I think it's pot hunting and bad manners to compete in an Intro if you and your horse have the competence to do a Prelim.


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## SusieT (9 December 2014)

If you want to compete only against lessers or equals competition is not for you - you can go and find restricted classes if you want. I'm afraid just because you worked hard and wanted a rosette doesn't equate to getting one - there is not a big difference between intro and prelim .


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## cptrayes (9 December 2014)

SusieT said:



			there is not a big difference between intro and prelim .
		
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Wow Susie, have you any knowledge of Intro at all???

There is no canter in Intro!


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (9 December 2014)

i tend to agree with susie (albeit this is a different topic really and a bit of a tangent.....)

i cant get too worked up -see my earlier point re rules is rules, get a grip...............BUT if you cant canter, should you really be at a show? for whatever reason that may be, are you really competent and is the horse really on the aids enough to be in a busy public warm up, if it cant even canter a flipping 20m circle?!

really?

3yo under saddle tests for mare and stallion grading have canter in them..................

if intro tests were abolished i think general standards would rise albeit then you would only have the whingers and the whiners moaning that so and so used the prelim as a warm up.....!


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## ester (9 December 2014)

I think susie meant compared to doing an intro and a novice/elem, everything is relative 

Re. the not moving up to elementary, surely the reason BD has made the points levels where they are is because they think that level is right/fair. IME rider groups can cause an issue for riding club teams when people have more than one horse too .


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## el_Snowflakes (9 December 2014)

This is something that annoys me too BUT I can safely say that when I go out to compete I may not always win but I always challenge & push myself which means more to me than a red rosette anyway. Plenty of riders who are more experienced than myself compete at lower levels than I do but where's the fun in that?

Give yourself confidence by remembering they will eventually plateau while you continue to improve


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## Twiglet (9 December 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			i tend to agree with susie (albeit this is a different topic really and a bit of a tangent.....)

i cant get too worked up -see my earlier point re rules is rules, get a grip...............BUT if you cant canter, should you really be at a show? for whatever reason that may be, are you really competent and is the horse really on the aids enough to be in a busy public warm up, if it cant even canter a flipping 20m circle?!

really?

3yo under saddle tests for mare and stallion grading have canter in them..................

if intro tests were abolished i think general standards would rise albeit then you would only have the whingers and the whiners moaning that so and so used the prelim as a warm up.....!
		
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I disagree here - being able to canter, and wanting to do a test with canter, is a different thing. If you have a big young horse, and it's unbalanced in canter (as many are), then doing an Intro test is a good way to get it used to going out and having a confidence boosting outing, without wobbling round an arena and feeling out of its comfort zone. I didn't do any myself, but whilst my horse was more than capable of cantering happily in our 60x20m at home/out hacking/on a good surface when he started competing - a 20x40m was a different kettle of fish, and wasn't too pretty a sight!

Not all horses are bred for grading or professional careers - some people just want to get their young horses out for experience, which is what these tests are designed for, in my opinion. 

I don't see anything wrong with a warm up test - test centres should apply rules on eligibility if it's an issue - plenty do!


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## cptrayes (9 December 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			i cant get too worked up -see my earlier point re rules is rules, get a grip...............BUT if you cant canter, should you really be at a show? for whatever reason that may be, are you really competent and is the horse really on the aids enough to be in a busy public warm up, if it cant even canter a flipping 20m circle?!
.!
		
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It's what Intro was put into the schedules for Princess.

You left behind being a nervous novice so long ago that you have forgotten, if you ever knew, what a thrill it is to get to your first competition. Not everyone is trying to get to Grand Prix. For some, winning a frilly at Intro will be the highlight of their year.

I don't see any problem with not wanting to canter a circle in a warm up arena. It's easier to avoid someone warming up circles and lines in trot than the person in there an hour early practising their half pass.


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## twiggy2 (9 December 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			i cant get too worked up -see my earlier point re rules is rules, get a grip...............BUT if you cant canter, should you really be at a show? for whatever reason that may be, are you really competent and is the horse really on the aids enough to be in a busy public warm up, if it cant even canter a flipping 20m circle?!

really?

3yo under saddle tests for mare and stallion grading have canter in them..................

if intro tests were abolished i think general standards would rise albeit then you would only have the whingers and the whiners moaning that so and so used the prelim as a warm up.....!
		
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I don't compete these days but not being able to canter and wanting to introduce horse or rider or a combination to the competing world whilst not blowing anyones brains or scaring anyone seems very sensible to me, cantering is often the straw that broke the camels back for an rider or a horse if they lack confidence, experience or unity.


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## Apercrumbie (9 December 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			i tend to agree with susie (albeit this is a different topic really and a bit of a tangent.....)

i cant get too worked up -see my earlier point re rules is rules, get a grip...............BUT if you cant canter, should you really be at a show? for whatever reason that may be, are you really competent and is the horse really on the aids enough to be in a busy public warm up, if it cant even canter a flipping 20m circle?!

really?

3yo under saddle tests for mare and stallion grading have canter in them..................

if intro tests were abolished i think general standards would rise albeit then you would only have the whingers and the whiners moaning that so and so used the prelim as a warm up.....!
		
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I completely understand this but when I had a very green horse I found the intro test very useful.  We definitely could canter, but in a fairly unbalanced fashion so a walk and trot test really took the pressure off for his first couple of tests.  I used them as learning experiences to get him out and about and used to show atmospheres more than anything.  I also made sure to canter a bit in the warmup.  I am no professional, I have had good results at higher levels with another horse but I am most definitely not the world's best rider.  However, I am competent and I enjoy it.  I do think intro tests have their uses - but the aim should always be to do a few and then move up to prelim as soon as possible.


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## dianchi (9 December 2014)

cptrayes said:



			It's what Intro was put into the schedules for Princess.

You left behind being a nervous novice so long ago that you have forgotten, if you ever knew, what a thrill it is to get to your first competition. Not everyone is trying to get to Grand Prix. For some, winning a frilly at Intro will be the highlight of their year.
		
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Actually most Intro tests are so ghastly to attempt on a wobbly youngster i dont know why people think they should start babies there-
10m 1/2 circles on a 17.2hh 4yo- great fun!

Equally first comps are not fun or thrilling- they are horrid nerve wracking events that we wonder why we do it, until we get off and its all over! 

However as it always comes down to- if their eligible they can enter- dont like it train to beat them!


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## cptrayes (9 December 2014)

dianchi said:



			Actually most Intro tests are so ghastly to attempt on a wobbly youngster i dont know why people think they should start babies there-
10m 1/2 circles on a 17.2hh 4yo- great fun!

Equally first comps are not fun or thrilling- they are horrid nerve wracking events that we wonder why we do it, until we get off and its all over! 

However as it always comes down to- if their eligible they can enter- dont like it train to beat them!
		
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You may not find them thrilling, I do. I absolutely loved taking my little green cob to an Intro last year.  And the OP was the same, obviously.


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## StoptheCavalry (9 December 2014)

I just wish they'd invent a test with no trot in, that's my least favourite, walk and canter however are just fine !


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## nikkimariet (9 December 2014)

StoptheCavalry said:



			I just wish they'd invent a test with no trot in, that's my least favourite, walk and canter however are just fine !
		
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I vote no walk! Trot, canter, sideways and changes = fine. Walk... NOPE.


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## FestiveFuzz (9 December 2014)

cptrayes said:



			I think it is a completely different issue doing an Intro as a warm up level to using any other level as a warm up class. Intro classes are walk and trot only. They were designed for people and horses who simply aren't ready to do a Prelim, to allow them the experience of competing and possibly getting a frilly,  not for people who can't (or even worse, can)  win a Prelim and want to win something.

I don't care whether it's within the rules or not (and at the centre I go to it's not) , I think it's pot hunting and bad manners to compete in an Intro if you and your horse have the competence to do a Prelim.
		
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I worry slightly about this. I took my green cob out this summer for his first taste of dressage. I opted for intro as his canter is still pretty wobbly and I like to set him up for success as much as possible when it comes to new experiences. We've yet to be placed but have scored low 60s on each outing. I am now working on his canter work over winter with an aim to pop him in some prelim classes next spring but will likely still enter him into an intro test too in case he finds cantering in an arena a bit too exciting. Obviously once he's more established or getting placed at intro we'll move on but until then I don't see any issue with me putting him in both intro and prelim classes for experience.



Aperchristmaspud said:



			I completely understand this but when I had a very green horse I found the intro test very useful.  We definitely could canter, but in a fairly unbalanced fashion so a walk and trot test really took the pressure off for his first couple of tests.  I used them as learning experiences to get him out and about and used to show atmospheres more than anything.  I also made sure to canter a bit in the warmup.  I am no professional, I have had good results at higher levels with another horse but I am most definitely not the world's best rider.  However, I am competent and I enjoy it.  I do think intro tests have their uses - but the aim should always be to do a few and then move up to prelim as soon as possible.
		
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I completely agree with this. I always canter my boy in the warm up as it helps get him working from behind, but he was still too unbalanced over summer to consider putting him in for anything but the intro tests.


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## StoptheCavalry (9 December 2014)

nikkimariet said:



			I vote no walk! Trot, canter, sideways and changes = fine. Walk... NOPE.
		
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I don't always do so well with standing still either so removing halt would be just great too


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## Apercrumbie (9 December 2014)

nikkimariet said:



			I vote no walk! Trot, canter, sideways and changes = fine. Walk... NOPE.
		
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Completely agree.  Why is something that seems so simple so hard to get right?


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## Elbie (9 December 2014)

My instructor says we should be schooling a level higher than we compete at. Doesn't really work for me as compete at prelim but nowhere near novice level! 

It is annoying when sometimes you're up against people who seem way above that level but at the end of the day if they are eligible to compete then you just need to suck it up.

I try not to worry too much about placings. I just focus on my mark and how I felt my performance compared to other times. One time I lost to a BHSI instructor who went on to also win the novice class. I'd much rather lose to someone like that than someone riding backwards on a 3 legged donkey!


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (9 December 2014)

i dont want to de-rail the thread so this will be my final thoughts (and they are only that MY thoughts and you can disagree or agree, but its not going to change my mind one iota..)

its a sliding scale of *why are you doing this*-if it cant canter a 20 x 20 m circle in an arena, in front of 1 judge then to me personally that kind of screams lack of prep..... the first time a horse goes off site should be to hire a diff arena away from home, when presumably you would take advantage of a schooling situation and thus canter? and you should do that until the horse is relaxed..............and if you can do that, then really, going and doing a prelim isnt too different?

as far as the warm up goes, i find intro/prelim/novice far more terrifying (especially given HOW many people seem not to do the above prep and are thus presumably careering round on equally terrified horses!) than warming up with higher levels, who at least can canter/halt or collect and shorten a few steps to manoeuvre out the way.

totally get that every horse is not being produced with GP in mind but to my mind warm up arena control is a safety issue and you cant just take the tack that "oh im not doing it seriously so it doesnt matter" because if your nervous horse, at its very first adventure off the yard, explodes,careers off barely able to stay upright in canter, with its terrified rider screaming and collides with another horse, the rider of that horse will be taking it VERY seriously and might not be too impressed............

preparation is key............ive had some absolute knob-heads in the past, but never caused an accident because the horse was sufficiently prepped as to be manoeuvrable and thus i could stay out the way...........i personally just feel intro tests encourage people out in to public before they are really ready.

also, i can bet you any money that whilst i can brazen it out, i WILL feel that twinge of fear at Goof's first show. But i will have done all the prep and put every building block in place to make it as safe and as easy as possible. If you really are SO nervous of cantering at a show, then perhaps come rider confidence building is needed too.

and before anyone even says it-para riders and small kids are totally diff kettle of fish, kids cant rationalise in the same way adults can and very tiny tots probably lack the upper body strength to canter anyway.


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## ann-jen (9 December 2014)

My plan for next year is to qualify for the summer regionals at prelim and the area festival at novice so as of January will be competing at 2 separate levels.... I don't see any problem with this personally.... and I'm certainly not pot hunting! 
Also on Sunday I was competing at prelim and the lady in the arena before me has competed at Badminton! So in a different league to me in terms of riding skill! Did I have a problem with this? Not really.... I assumed it was a young or novicey horse.... plus I was ecstatic when I was placed 2nd and she was placed 3rd!! So there can be some real positives with riding against 'pros' too as I felt a huge sense of achievement there!


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## Kat_Bath (9 December 2014)

I read these kind of threads with interest. 

I have no direct comment and there are some points I agree with and others I disagree with. However, I did chuckle because I don't think any of the other 5 people in the 20 x 40 intro warm up on Sunday would have wanted me to canter; I was on a 19.2 shire! Maybe I'm missing the point but thought I'd add that perspective


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## Twiglet (9 December 2014)

Hiring an arena to practice and prepare is vastly different to a horse's first warm up and competition environment. Everyone and every horse has to compete for the first time, and if someone has a hot horse/young horse/new horse they're not sure of in that environment, then personally I'd respect them for sensibly preparing for a new experience by taking it out and keep it as low key and quiet as possible - that might involve not cantering. In my opinion THAT is 'preparation'.


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## cptrayes (9 December 2014)

Nobody knows what their first time horse is going to do in THAT arena at THOSE letters on THAT day. Is it so long since you took out a novice horse that you've forgotten that Princess?  I hope for your sake that Goofy doesn't remind you!

Not everyone can ever be as confident a rider as you. Do you want to prevent all those people from having an experience at a show that they feel they can cope with?

I welcome them with open arms, if for no other reason than they bump up the numbers enough to make it worth while for them to open the cafe


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (9 December 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Nobody knows what their first time horse is going to do in THAT arena at THOSE letters on THAT day. Is it so long since you took out a novice horse that you've forgotten that Princess?  I hope for your sake that Goofy doesn't remind you!

Not everyone can ever be as confident a rider as you. Do you want to prevent all those people from having an experience at a show that they feel they can cope with?

I welcome them with open arms, if for no other reason than they bump up the numbers enough to make it worth while for them to open the cafe 

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I think its fair to say, if anyone at all can play the *unreliable horse* card...........it was CS! and he was no different age 4 to age 9 so not being a mind reader has no bearing on anything and neither does the horses age, so i dont really get your point?

Like i already said, i'm sure Goofy will make me wince a few times, but it wont be because he's cantering-if its going to deck you its going to do it regardless( and yes lets hope he doesnt dislodge me because his pea brain wont make a bee line for NMT, or back to HIS lorry...................he'll probably jump every fence between the warm up and home instead of taking the easy option!)

from a training POV, hire arenas with a big bunch of friends, get banners out at home etc, make show *stuff* as boring snoring as you can.


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## cptrayes (9 December 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			and are thus presumably careering round on equally terrified horses.....
		
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I've never seen an intro horse and rider do this.





			preparation is key............ive had some absolute knob-heads in the past, but never caused an accident because the horse was sufficiently prepped as to be manoeuvrable and thus i could stay out the way...........i personally just feel intro tests encourage people out in to public before they are really ready.
		
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Was CS ready to go to venues that graded their arenas with tractors?  He once caused an accident bolting away from one, didn't he?  You took him to venues that were bound to have tractors going around in spite of knowing he had a great fear of them. It seems you might have one rule for you and another for others?


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## MPop (9 December 2014)

I don't mind people competing in Intro and Prelim on the same day, but I do mind when riders consistently score 70% in intro tests and keep riding them. It's just glory hunting and wanting to collect red rosettes. I'm no great dressage rider but I like to give it a go and have some fun, and I do find it demoralising when the same riders keep winning the most basic class - which is aimed at novice riders and horses after all. I like it when there are restrictions on the class - i.e. no-one can enter the Intro if they have previously come first or second. After owning my horse for 3 years, I am yet to be in that category!!!


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## Under-the-radar (9 December 2014)

cptrayes said:



			I've never seen an intro horse and rider do this.




Was CS ready to go to venues that graded their arenas with tractors?  He once caused an accident bolting away from one, didn't he?  You took him to venues that were bound to have tractors going around in spite of knowing he had a great fear of them. It seems you might have one rule for you and another for others?
		
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I have to say cptrayes, that while I can see valid points in both your and PS's points of view, your tone is really not pleasant in your replies.  There is more that I want to reply to this particular post, but I think that you are making me want to defend PS's point of view, purely because of your tone in replying to her.


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## rara007 (9 December 2014)

I admit I have done an intro and prelim on the same day. Twice actually. Admittedly also both times I won the intro. (Different ponies). I was also last in both prelims. I understand that that is lack of preparation, but for me and I expect many others at that level dressage is just for fun, I only have the time I have to train, hire places and compete and I split that between everything being a 'Jack of all trades'. Its also preparation for their more serious job of driving. Both ponies I took were not really up to canter (Canter only comes in driven tests at advanced single level) and only 4YOs doing their first tests. Doing the prelim gets more 'white board' time so is good training for the future, around home it's difficult to hire an arena away from home with boards on a weekend day, and more expensive! That and I can't persuade my unpaid grooms to watch me school but they'll come to watch a test.


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## cptrayes (9 December 2014)

Under-the-radar said:



			I have to say cptrayes, that while I can see valid points in both your and PS's points of view, your tone is really not pleasant in your replies.  There is more that I want to reply to this particular post, but I think that you are making me want to defend PS's point of view, purely because of your tone in replying to her.
		
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Please tell me how you would have liked me to have worded it while making the same point. I would be happy to be corrected.


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## cptrayes (9 December 2014)

Kat_Bath said:



			I read these kind of threads with interest. 

I have no direct comment and there are some points I agree with and others I disagree with. However, I did chuckle because I don't think any of the other 5 people in the 20 x 40 intro warm up on Sunday would have wanted me to canter; I was on a 19.2 shire! Maybe I'm missing the point but thought I'd add that perspective 

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I think we need a photo  !


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## Under-the-radar (9 December 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Please tell me how you would have liked me to have worded it while making the same point. I would be happy to be corrected.
		
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As I said, I can see valid points in what you are saying.  It is not WHAT you are saying, but HOW you are saying it. I think constantly referring to PS as "princess" is maybe a little unnecessary. 

I have nothing against you - you are clear and concise in what you are trying to put across, but it just seems to me that your tone is a bit needless.  But just my opinion


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## NooNoo59 (9 December 2014)

Just another note from me, my pony had a severe injury and was off ridden work for a year, he was then slowly bought back into work and we went out to do a couple of intros to get back in the swing of things. He did win one of them and for me after all the hard work and worry I was delirious!! I was not dangerous or under prepared but the canter was not ready for a test but the walk and trot were, the canter was getting there but now I am lame so to get back into the swing of things when I am riding again I will prob do another walk trot.  Our local venue has one for those that have been placed and those that have not, it also does the same with the prelim, i.e. you cannot compete in the easier prelims if you have previously won at that level in a certain time span, very fair and keeps everyone happy.


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## ester (9 December 2014)

TBF I did read that post thinking that CS has likely caused more upset in warm ups than most intro combinations do. So long as you can stop, go, turn and keep out of the way of other people I think you are perfectly entitled to get out and enjoy yourself, baby horse, novice/nervous rider (for whom going out is usually so much more than just what you do in the ring) or any other combination


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## cptrayes (9 December 2014)

Under-the-radar said:



			As I said, I can see valid points in what you are saying.  It is not WHAT you are saying, but HOW you are saying it. I think constantly referring to PS as "princess" is maybe a little unnecessary.
		
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It's her logon!  If she wants me to stop using it, I will happily do that.


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## cptrayes (9 December 2014)

rara007 said:



			I admit I have done an intro and prelim on the same day. Twice actually. Admittedly also both times I won the intro. (Different ponies). I was also last in both prelims. I understand that that is lack of preparation, but for me and I expect many others at that level dressage is just for fun, I only have the time I have to train, hire places and compete and I split that between everything being a 'Jack of all trades'. Its also preparation for their more serious job of driving. Both ponies I took were not really up to canter (Canter only comes in driven tests at advanced single level) and only 4YOs doing their first tests. Doing the prelim gets more 'white board' time so is good training for the future, around home it's difficult to hire an arena away from home with boards on a weekend day, and more expensive! That and I can't persuade my unpaid grooms to watch me school but they'll come to watch a test.
		
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I don't think there's any problem with this. I'm likely to do the same when my baby cob does his first prelim soon, but I'll drop intro as soon as I know that the lovely canter we have at home and in schooling trips is established in a test ring as well.


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## Kat_Bath (9 December 2014)

cptrayes said:



			I think we need a photo  !
		
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Will do a report later on


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## Under-the-radar (9 December 2014)

cptrayes said:



			It's her logon!  If she wants me to stop using it, I will happily do that.
		
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Hmmmmm - I think there is a difference between referring to someone as their log in, or even the initials of their log in, and what you have done.  As I said, its not so much WHAT you have said, but HOW you are saying it. 

But I am sure if you can't (or won't) distinguish the difference, you can't (or won't) understand what I am saying


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## Under-the-radar (9 December 2014)

cptrayes said:



			It's her logon!  If she wants me to stop using it, I will happily do that.
		
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For what its worth, I think intro tests are valuable to many people.  I found them very useful with my mare - she would be absolute saint if we went out and hired an arena, but take her to a show with other horses, and it was a completely different matter! 

I also intend to do intro tests with my youngster, once we are ready.  I am sure that we will, at some point, do an intro and prelim test too.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (9 December 2014)

at no point in his 5 year career did CS ever come anywhere close to colliding with another horse??????  I cant think of a single time he's even come close to harming a person or horse EXCEPT the tractor incident which i think we can all agree was not in any way my fault.

(he was once asked to vacate a warm up but afterwards several professionals who were actually present at the time agreed the steward was over zealous as again he never even came close to touching another person or horse)

CPT-i made every effort to avoid tractors as i knew they set him off. I would not knowingly have put him in a situation where i was unable to move him away quickly and safely. For every show bar ONE i managed that, and lets be real, its NOT standard BD practice to have harrowing tractors IN the warm up WITH horses.....in that incident BD have admitted the VENUE  were at fault for not warning riders,so if you would like to apologise to me that would be great  thanks.

It would agree that CPT and i agree on very little to do with producing horses but at least one of us can debate the topic without making it personal.

oh and i quite like my *pet name*  at least it can be written without appearing as a line of stars...........


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## ester (9 December 2014)

Fwiw it's worth I wasn't considering actual/near collisions more the effect something having issues can have on others in the vicinity.


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## Under-the-radar (9 December 2014)

ester said:



			Fwiw it's worth I wasn't considering actual/near collisions more the effect something having issues can have on others in the vicinity.
		
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IMO the only way a horse can learn to deal with a situation where another horse is having a wobbler, is to be in that situation.  For most people, the only way they are going to be in that situation is if they are at a show, or one sort or another. 

When I started taking my mare out to shows, she would be horribly distracted by other horses around.  But because we kept going out, and just got on with what we needed to do, she learned to concentrate on me, rather than other horses. I am sure that some people have horses who are more focused on their riders then mine is, but the only thing that was going to help my mare was keep going out to shows


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## cptrayes (9 December 2014)

I'm glad you like the name. Sorry Princess, but I don't think am apology is warranted. You had a horse with what read on your posts to me like a morbid fear of tractors. And you consistently took him to high class venues where you could have come across a tractor at any time. The venue you were at has told me that they have you a five minute warning, but it's your word against theirs, so we'll never know the truth of that one.   It matters little, anyway, in venues the size that you go to there will always be heavy machinery around, and it really does read to me as if you have different expectations of other people's abilities to control their horses than your own. The fact that he escaped you while you were leading him and ran into a passing ridden stallion while loose shows me, no matter how close to you the tractor was, that is the case.

I've never seen anyone at a competition who was competing in an Intro class cause the slightest problem to anyone else. I've had more trouble with the high level riders suddenly coming across the arena in half pass, throwing a pirouette, or doing canter to halt in front of me.  I think your desire to prevent less experienced people having fun is sad, and thankfully I don't think it will ever happen, because venues need the money.

I think you are very brave, with a two year old to start, to be posting on record that any amount of preparation can stop a young horse at his first real party from misbehaving!


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (9 December 2014)

yes and i get that.

also FWIW i took great care to always keep him in his own space and not to get boxed in. I do think rearing is slightly less obnoxious than say explosive bucking on a scale of upsetting other peoples horses! only once was it mentioned in five years(by the steward noted in my previous reply) , i NEVER had any other person in the warm up mention it to me and i think that record speaks for its self as we all know how quick dressage divas are to snap if they think someone is in the wrong(me included lol!!!!!). I doubt he could have be consistently upsetting other horses for 5 years and never had it mentioned by a single rider, or team member, or ground crew or family member??????????

however, this has all become very CS based and i think the OP is probably pretty fed up so can we leave it at that.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (9 December 2014)

cptrayes said:



			I'm glad you like the name. Sorry Princess, but I don't think am apology is warranted. You had a horse with what read on your posts to me like a morbid fear of tractors. And you consistently took him to high class venues where you could have come across a tractor at any time. The venue you were at has told me that they have you a five minute warning, but it's your word against theirs, so we'll never know the truth of that one.   It matters little, anyway, in venues the size that you go to there will always be heavy machinery around, and it really does read to me as if you have different expectations of other people's abilities to control their horses than your own. The fact that he escaped you while you were leading him and ran into a passing ridden stallion shows me, no matter how close to you the tractor was, seems to indicate that.

I've never seen anyone at a competition who was competing in an Intro class cause the slightest problem to anyone else. I think your desire to prevent those people having fun is sad, and thankfully I don't think it will ever happen, because venues need the money.

I think you are very brave, with a two year old to start, to be posting on record that any amount of preparation can stop a young horse at his first real party from misbehaving!
		
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im not sure where i actually said that CPT?! in fact i actually said the opposite-that im sure he WILL make me wince....yep just checked and thats what i said....

......what i also said was that i personally dont think intro classes contribute much to the general standard of dressage and that people shouldnt go out in public before they can canter safely, in balance, and without being scared to the point of not being in complete control.

i also said that in my opinion correct preparation includes multiple arena hires.

i also said that i will have done multiple arena hires and thus will feel as well prepped as i can when i take Goofs out 

although all that said i kind of hope he plods round like a donkey, ill get you a lovely pic, just for you CPT, howza bout it?

you are very good at twisting the truth,i need a gold star emoji...........


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## Perfect_Pirouette (9 December 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			im not sure where i actually said that CPT?! in fact i actually said the opposite-that im sure he WILL make me wince....yep just checked and thats what i said....

......what i also said was that i personally dont think intro classes contribute much to the general standard of dressage and that people shouldnt go out in public before they can canter safely, in balance, and without being scared to the point of not being in complete control.

i also said that in my opinion correct preparation includes multiple arena hires.

i also said that i will have done multiple arena hires and thus will feel as well prepped as i can when i take Goofs out 

although all that said i kind of hope he plods round like a donkey, ill get you a lovely pic, just for you CPT, howza bout it?

you are very good at twisting the truth,i need a gold star emoji...........
		
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You need a gold medal for patience more like, talk about trying to wind someone up! (I don't mean you!x)


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## cptrayes (9 December 2014)

I apologise for making this personal, but I don't really see any other way I could have pointed out the unfairness of PS suggesting that Intro riders are causing problems for other riders?

If you check back, although, no names were named, it was pretty derogatory stuff.

It was basically telling the OP  that she shouldn't even have been there, never mind been mildly annoyed by a pot hunter.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (9 December 2014)

i said i find lower level warm ups more nerve wracking. I did not imply that any one particular person on this thread or IRL was an issue, at no point have i made it personal 

I still do think that being able to canter in balance and without *too* much worry is a good thing to have nailed before going public and if you can do it in the warm up you can defs do it in the ring.

Bless the little Goof ball, ill go home and tell him he's got CPT to impress now, so we had better re-double our de spooking, big love for that little chappy


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## Under-the-radar (9 December 2014)

cptrayes said:



			I apologise for making this personal, but I don't really see any other way I could have pointed out the unfairness of PS suggesting that Intro riders are causing problems for other riders?

If you check back, although, no names were named, it was pretty derogatory stuff.

It was basically telling the OP  that she shouldn't even have been there, never mind been mildly annoyed by a pot hunter.
		
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 Fairly sure that PS said nothing of the sort to the OP.  I read her post that she was advising the OP that people do often compete at two levels, and if you don't want to be beaten, work harder and just get past the people who are pot hunting, as they will eternally stay pot hunting at the same level.


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## cptrayes (9 December 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			i

 and if you can do it in the warm up you can defs do it in the ring.
		
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We may be getting to the crux of the issue here, because I don't believe this is true.  At any venue you can see the people who tense up as they go past A into the arena and begin to be judged. I'm one of them, and I'm in good company. Horses behave differently under those conditions. The only way, as a rider, to overcome that is to compete and to submit yourself to that judgement, and for some people that's easier if they don't need to worry about more than walk and trot.

People who compete at your level seem to have nerves of steel. I hope one day at least to have nerves of copper. Give me a six foot hedge any day rather than a stern  faced dressage judge


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (9 December 2014)

you may not be able to do it well, and indeed no one can do it perfectly...........but if you can(physically) canter a circle in the warm up you can (physically) canter a circle in the ring, as can the horse.

i wouldnt over complicate it or you (generic) run the risk of making it a bigger issue than it needs to be.


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## wench (9 December 2014)

My horse went wonderfully in the warm up in the last dressage comp I went to. Best I've ever had. Did it translate to the "real" thing... no. It wasnt videoed so I dont know if it was me, the horse, or a mixture of both.

How is this problem going to be cured? By taking the horse out over and over again to walk and trot tests.


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## cptrayes (9 December 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			you may not be able to do it well, and indeed no one can do it perfectly...........but if you can(physically) canter a circle in the warm up you can (physicallyridenter a circle in the ring, as can the horse.

i wouldnt over complicate it or you (generic) run the risk of making it a bigger issue than it needs to be.
		
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But this isn't true of all horse rider combinations Princess, is it?   There are horses  which have warmed up beautifully, but given the additional pressure of a rider stressed from being judged the horse may buck, spook, stop or do any manner of things in the ring.

I'm sorry to make this personal again, but I know you've experienced this yourself.  Several of your competition reports would say how nicely CS did the pirouette or half pass zig zags in the warm up, but not in the ring, where his behaviour would occasionally be spectacular ! It's the same at canter for the rest of us ordinary mortals who are down at Intro level.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (9 December 2014)

yes but if you desperately want to use that example-it didnt stop me going and doing it did it.

perhaps this is another tangent?

i never used to be brave, but if you want to succeed you have to be, so i faked it until one day i was actually for real, brave.

everyone can do that.

the more you make of it the more it takes you over. I dont let any of my pupils tell me they cant, if i say they can...they can....and they better get on in there and try and fake it until they make it! I teach a lot of people on a lot of horses and thus far this rather mean approach has turned mouses in to lions time and time again.

the amount of over thinking and fannying around some people place on something as simple as this.............its no wonder so many people think they cant progress past prelim.

you can all canter people, yep you can, all of you, and you can all get to elem/medium and if its got more than 1 brain cell and can do a change you can all get to adv med, if you want it enough to fake it for a bit.

now go do...in the nicest possible way


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## ester (9 December 2014)

Under-the-radar said:



			IMO the only way a horse can learn to deal with a situation where another horse is having a wobbler, is to be in that situation.  For most people, the only way they are going to be in that situation is if they are at a show, or one sort or another. 

When I started taking my mare out to shows, she would be horribly distracted by other horses around.  But because we kept going out, and just got on with what we needed to do, she learned to concentrate on me, rather than other horses. I am sure that some people have horses who are more focused on their riders then mine is, but the only thing that was going to help my mare was keep going out to shows
		
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Absolutely agree


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## cptrayes (9 December 2014)

I don't understand, though. I thought you wanted to stop people from gaining experience of tests with no canter in them?

If the cure is with the  horse and rider getting over being judged, then the best way to achieve that is surely more and more tests with no canter, rather than do tests with canter and have the horse behave wrongly in the ring?  Doesn't that risk a catastrophic loss of confidence by both horse and rider?

I guess I just don't understand at all why you want to get rid of Intro tests.  I think they can be useful for training the rider and the horse, and I think a lot of hobby riders are having a lot of fun doing them.   Pretty sure BD and the venues love the money too


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## Moomin1 (9 December 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			i tend to agree with susie (albeit this is a different topic really and a bit of a tangent.....)

i cant get too worked up -see my earlier point re rules is rules, get a grip...............BUT if you cant canter, should you really be at a show? for whatever reason that may be, are you really competent and is the horse really on the aids enough to be in a busy public warm up, if it cant even canter a flipping 20m circle?!

really?

3yo under saddle tests for mare and stallion grading have canter in them..................

if intro tests were abolished i think general standards would rise albeit then you would only have the whingers and the whiners moaning that so and so used the prelim as a warm up.....!
		
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I am afraid I have to agree with this.  

My horse had canter issues up until this year, and I wouldn't have even thought about bothering taking her to a competition.


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## cptrayes (9 December 2014)

Moomince Pie said:



			I am afraid I have to agree with this.  

My horse had canter issues up until this year, and I wouldn't have even thought about bothering taking her to a competition.
		
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Is Minimoo asleep  ?

Moomin, do you mean that you would never put her in an Intro test, or just that you would not take her to do any test until she had canter sorted?


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## eggs (9 December 2014)

StoptheCavalry said:



			I don't always do so well with standing still either so removing halt would be just great too 

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Personally I would like to see fly leaping included at all levels


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## cptrayes (9 December 2014)

eggs said:



			Personally I would like to see fly leaping included at all levels
		
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Ah, but can you produce it at the right marker?  Accuracy is important you know!


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## Art Nouveau (9 December 2014)

I'd quite like 'wiggle down the centre line and come to a halt with bum poking to the side.'
Maybe we should develop a new type of freestyle dressage.


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## cptrayes (9 December 2014)

Art Nouveau said:



			I'd quite like 'wiggle down the centre line and come to a halt with bum poking to the side.'
Maybe we should develop a new type of freestyle dressage.
		
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OK let's go for our prefect test.   Copy and Paste to add your next move, folks, and see what we get.

1.  Enter at A and wiggle down the centre line.

2.  Halt at G with bum squished out to one side.

3. Move off as if stung by a bee, stop and stare in amazement at the judge's hair color, turn right.





Over to you!   Remember this is a walk and canter only test.


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## eggs (9 December 2014)

cptrayes said:



			OK let's go for our prefect test.   Copy and Paste to add your next move, folks, and see what we get.

1.  Enter at A and wiggle down the centre line.

2.  Halt at G with bum squished out to one side.

3. Move off as if stung by a bee, stop and stare in amazement at the judge's hair color, turn right.





Over to you!   Remember this is a walk and canter only test.
		
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well it is anything like one test I did

4.  decide that you don't want to track left at C

5.  crab round the corner and set off fly leaping at H (that is where there accuracy comes in!!!)

6.  pick up perfectly at K and carry on as if nothing happend


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## ann-jen (9 December 2014)

My test on Sunday included....
working canter, circle at A with large buck when passing over X


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## Art Nouveau (9 December 2014)

So we have...

1. Enter at A and wiggle down the centre line.

2. Halt at G with bum squished out to one side.

3. Move off as if stung by a bee, stop and stare in amazement at the judge's hair color, turn right.

4. decide that you don't want to track left at C

5. crab round the corner and set off fly leaping at H (that is where there accuracy comes in!!!)

6. pick up perfectly at K and carry on as if nothing happened

7. Working canter at A and complete 20 metre-ish egg shaped pattern 

8. include large buck when passing X


do we then change the rein and repeat?


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## trottingon (9 December 2014)

7. KX walk across diagonal on a long rein
8. XM still in walk proceed to raise horses head as if imitating a giraffe staring at something no-one else can even see in the distance, extra points for snorting


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## trottingon (9 December 2014)

Sorry mine is now 9&10


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## trottingon (9 December 2014)

11 MA sideways crab movement in trot still doing impression of giraffe


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## humblepie (9 December 2014)

Hey our first intro test included stop at f and neigh at horse by gate.  Year and a bit later best part of 100 bd points. For me the intro was a good way of getting an away from home experience but second time out we did the prelim even though canter was more luck than skill.


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## ilvpippa (9 December 2014)

I always compete at intro level; but we rarely get placed so I'm happy with the outing  which is why Intro was out there in the first place? 
My girl was injuried & had to have surgery in July so even now if I wanted to do prelim we couldn't as she wouldn't be able to maintain the amount of canter.


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## Moomin1 (9 December 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Is Minimoo asleep  ?

Moomin, do you mean that you would never put her in an Intro test, or just that you would not take her to do any test until she had canter sorted?
		
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Mini Moomin is being a very good girl and allowing me to have some peace and quiet lol! 

I wouldn't take her to do any test to be honest (my horse, not Mini Moomin ;-) ) unless I was confident that she is capable of performing walk, trot and canter to a reasonably decent standard.  I just tend to think that if there is a problem with the canter, then there's something still lacking in the basic training ie balance, straightness etc etc and I personally wouldn't compete my horse when there was an issue like that.  But I am a perfectionist when it comes to competing so that's just my take on it really.


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## cptrayes (9 December 2014)

Moomince Pie said:



			Mini Moomin is being a very good girl and allowing me to have some peace and quiet lol! 

I wouldn't take her to do any test to be honest (my horse, not Mini Moomin ;-) ) unless I was confident that she is capable of performing walk, trot and canter to a reasonably decent standard.  I just tend to think that if there is a problem with the canter, then there's something still lacking in the basic training ie balance, straightness etc etc and I personally wouldn't compete my horse when there was an issue like that.  But I am a perfectionist when it comes to competing so that's just my take on it really. 

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No, I see that, but when she does do canter nicely, would you consider an Intro test or just go straight for Prelim?


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## cptrayes (9 December 2014)

ilvpippa said:



			I always compete at intro level; but we rarely get placed so I'm happy with the outing  which is why Intro was out there in the first place?
		
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I go for that and the coffee  , just like you.


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## cptrayes (9 December 2014)

trottingon said:



			11 MA sideways crab movement in trot still doing impression of giraffe
		
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12. Two one time changes anywhere random.  when you want them you'll never get them, but one of mine did them once 

Judges comment was 'nice changes, unfortunately not required at this level.'


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## PolarSkye (9 December 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			It is absolutely common and correct for a horse to be working several levels above what it competes at so that what it has to do in the ring is easy peasy and not on a wing and a prayer.

if the horse is hot, or stressy, or had a previous bad experience, it may need a dead easy class to settle it, before the harder class.
		
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Certainly applies to my boy . . . we always did a warm-up (lower level - Intro) test first to get him settled/used to the arena/atmosphere and then did the Prelim.  He never did get to Novice before he broke . . . we had entered him for one (and he did the Prelim first) but he was such a stressy nightmare that we put him on the lorry and took him home.  

When we go back out in the New Year, he'll be going at Prelim but will do classes and then we'll step one up to Novice when both he and N are ready . . . honestly, it's common practice.  

However - doing an Intro test and then going in and doing a Novice (or above) is a bit of a mickey take and certainly unfair.

P


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## Red-1 (9 December 2014)

I don't mind about the rest of the test, but my favourite move is the final Halt at G, salute and allow the horse to stretch- for a pee!


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## VRIN (9 December 2014)

cptrayes said:



			12. Two one time changes anywhere random.  when you want them you'll never get them, but one of mine did them once 

Judges comment was 'nice changes, unfortunately not required at this level.'
		
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that made me smile!!


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## Moomin1 (9 December 2014)

cptrayes said:



			No, I see that, but when she does do canter nicely, would you consider an Intro test or just go straight for Prelim?
		
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Mm, well she's above and beyond my level now as she's been brought on by my instructor a hell of a lot whilst I was pregnant, and apparently would be up to about an affiliated novice standard now.  So in all honesty, I would feel a little bit of a fraud taking her in an unaffiliated intro, even though for my confidence that is where I would like to start for the first couple of tests. But I think I would probably go straight for the prelim instead.

I also think my instructor would shoot me if I entered an intro walk/trot test now too lol!!


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## EquiEquestrian556 (9 December 2014)

I do compete in a smaller class or two when I'm SJing, before my main classes, to warm by mare up & get her used to the arena & course etc. and to be honest I don't see it as bad. My best friend does it too, and and so do a few other friends, and I know a few people who also do that.  

If you're eligible for the class, then what's the problem?


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## EquiEquestrian556 (9 December 2014)

PolarExpress said:



			Certainly applies to my boy . . . we always did a warm-up (lower level - Intro) test first to get him settled/used to the arena/atmosphere and then did the Prelim.
P
		
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^^ This is what I do with my mare when SJing. It lets them see the course and the crowd etc, so when my main classes come she's used to the atmosphere, and thus she can focus at the task in hand.


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## pootleperkin (9 December 2014)

I think they serve a purpose either as a warm up for very green horses or for extremely nervous/newbie riders and not much else. I would have no qualms in taking a green, training prelim /novice at home horse in intros and so risk the wrath of being called a pot hunter, as like PS, the horse, although green would likely be prepped to perform above and beyond that level. But if it is its first few times out, then why not. I would also do a prelim test the same day. Perfect baby horse warm up.

I also think that if you lack match practice as a rider, then despite the level of the horse you ride, again, why not pop in one or two at the start of your competitive career! People should be less judgmental over who enters what in general.....people usually have valid reasons for class choices. While a minority might be pot hunting, I think if you are pot hunting at intro level, it's quite sad really! lol


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## wench (9 December 2014)

Slightly on a different note I turned up with my old horse to a clear round jumping session. I got some very funny looks from people there, as you could have put my horse in the badminton trot up and not known he wasn't supposed to be there.

In reality he was a very naughty horse, and I needed to do some very low level stuff with him to convince him stopping and running out wasn't an option.


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## Kikke (9 December 2014)

Yup annoying for some people I ams sure, but it works for me and my horses especially if you are traveling somewhere just for a 4 minute test, why not do more then the one class and use one as a warm up.


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## georgiegirl (9 December 2014)

I'm another who doesn't see a problem with it (to an extent) 

Dressage is all about progression and if you feel you and your horse did a nice test then what's the bother where you came? 

Conversely there's been times I've been out and done what I thought was a god awful test and have own or been placed - that is just as unsatisfying I can tell you! 

I always think that if I think my horse and I have done a good test then who cares where we finish up? Yes sometimes it can be a little disappointing but that's dressage for you and all you can do is go away and work harder..... Competitions are won at home, not at shows is my mantra!


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## spookypony (10 December 2014)

I'm apparently a freak, in that I can be petrified to do anything in the warm-up, but then turn down that centre line and become all business, and actually generally ride better in tests than in the warmup. I used to be fine in warm-ups, but the general nerves that have befallen me since my accident appear to have affected me there, oddly! Before I got her, my mare had been doing very well at prelim and had done a novice test or two with decent scores. For our first outing, I entered 2 prelims. I barely got out of walk in the warm-up, because she was spooking at an advertising sign and I was sitting there like a lemon, but we managed to win our first test, and place well in our second, despite still not warming up properly. That gave me the confidence to enter prelim and novice the next time out, and each time I take her somewhere with other horses, I feel more of my old "just put the leg on and get it moving" returning. It won't be long before we're doing two novice tests (or, one hopes, N and E), but in the meantime, it's necessary for me to know that I can have the first test as a warm-up. It's nothing to do with preparation; it's psychological, and will only be overcome through repetition.

My other thought is to do with injury recovery. I managed to strain hip adductors and flexors on my 80k attempt with the Spooky Pony at the end of August; for about 2 months, I could not sit to right canter without contorting myself and unbalancing the mare, so we stuck to walk and trot in the school, until it had healed. It wouldn't have occurred to me at that point to enter any sort of test until I was completely sorted out. If I had a horse that was being rehabilitated, I might be tempted to take it out at a lower level to get it used to things again, but would probably go HC if that level was more than one below where we were competing before. But everyone's circumstances are different, and as long as the horse and rider are eligible, it's not my business to judge.

An instructor once said to me that before Intro tests, someone wanting to give ring experience to a large unbalanced youngster might just decide to trot canter movements in a Prelim and accept the 0 for that movement. But the same person also joked that if showjumping classes got any lower, they'd have to bury the poles halfway in the ground next. 

As to the walk/canter test, I'm all for it. May I contribute:

K: Levade, demi-pirouette, skitter sideways towards X

?

("Skitter" is a special gait, that if executed correctly will make the rider feel as though her horse has at least 20 legs.  )


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## Moomin1 (10 December 2014)

georgiegirl said:



			I'm another who doesn't see a problem with it (to an extent) 

Dressage is all about progression and if you feel you and your horse did a nice test then what's the bother where you came? 

Conversely there's been times I've been out and done what I thought was a god awful test and have own or been placed - that is just as unsatisfying I can tell you! 

I always think that if I think my horse and I have done a good test then who cares where we finish up? Yes sometimes it can be a little disappointing but that's dressage for you and all you can do is go away and work harder..... Competitions are won at home, not at shows is my mantra! 

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I don't see the point in competing though if you don't bother where you are placed?  Why not just stay at home and go on a hack or school for enjoyment?  Surely competing is a test of where you are in ability (meaning horse/rider combination)?  If you feel you have done well, but then get a bad result, then either something is wrong with your judgement (not meaning you, but speaking metaphorically here) or the judge is a poor one.  To be honest, I sometimes think it's a bit disappointing when you get people who can't be bothered where they are placed entering comps, because they don't make the same amount of effort in preparation and it can be quite disheartening to compete against people like that.


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## rara007 (10 December 2014)

Moomince Pie said:



			I don't see the point in competing though if you don't bother where you are placed? .
		
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For me personally it's more about competing against my previous results/where I think we are in training (I'm busy and have other things on so we're at a plateau, and not one I have the time or inclination to move off of even if the pony was up to it which I don't think he needs to be at his time in life!). We simply do it for our enjoyment. Sometimes we get lucky and the judge likes me and the ponies, or everyone else is worse than us/has a nightmare day. Sometimes the judge doesn't like my style and ponies, or they do but other people nail it and simply outclass us. I think lots of people at unaff and the lower levels think along those lines, not all of us are cut out/have the time/inclination to be the next Olympian, but I enjoy my ponies as and when I can. I'd rather come middle in a large competitive class than win a class of only a handful or where the standard was poor  Unless you always go to the same venue each week the standard of two classes of the same test is never exactly the same (even then not the same as horses are horses and people human), I like to know I've improved not just that the person that beat me before didn't turn up. I have too many rosettes cluttering up the place as it is


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## Firewell (10 December 2014)

I think OP that you should be really proud your horse did well. It is frustrating when a Novice combination enter an Intro but really how sad for them that they need to do that. It happens everywhere all the time.
Here in America in their jumping shows they will have a day before the show where you can school the horse round the jumps.Then a professional trainer does a 'Pro' class on the Amateurs horse to school it and make sure it's seen all the fillers (again), make sure any minor issues are ironed out ready for the Amature owner to then get on and do a lower height 'Amature' class. While the Amature is basically sitting and steering their horse round their trainer stands by the ring and calls out to them any last minute instructions.
The classes are split into so many sections that it's pretty impossible not to get placed and then everyone pats themselves on the back at how brilliantly well they have done.
Then there's me who rocks up on the day with no trainer, no schooling round first, hops on and beats them all .
There is something satisfying about that!
Like someone else said while those people at your show are still patting themselves on the back in several years time for winning an Intro you will be frying bigger fish!


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## cptrayes (10 December 2014)

Moomince Pie said:



			I don't see the point in competing though if you don't bother where you are placed?  .
		
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I'm not joking one bit, though sometimes people think I am, when I say I go for the coffee. I mean that sometimes I go for the day out with my OH, purely as entertainment.

Sometimes I go to train a young horse because it's easier than arranging a group of friends to simulate a competition environment. I always make sure not to annoy anyone else, and I wear 
L plates to let them know I'm on a complete baby.

With a really difficult horse I used to ride I would deliberately compete above where he could possibly win, because he behaved much better the more complicated the test was and the more his brain was kept engaged.

I'm sad that we are losing the idea that anyone might do lower level dressage just for fun, and I swear there's a judge who marks me down just because I'm smiling at how happy I am with the way my horse is feeling underneath me compared to what he might have been doing


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## cptrayes (10 December 2014)

Firewell I love your story  

When I was eventing a decade ago, a then (not now) British team member caused problems in the showjump warm up doing a 'don't you know who I am?'  act, and then blocked a cross country warm up fence chatting to her entourage about how her horse was brother to her 4 star horse. I've never been happier to beat someone on my parentage-unrecorded self-trained but lion-hearted mongrel.


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## LittleRooketRider (10 December 2014)

Jeesh..why is it every thread I read I seem to find CPT being nasty! Such a shame...I'm sure you have interesting opinions/stuff to say but being b;t@hy just puts our backs up and your (potentially enlightening) opinions are ignored.

Back on subject OP...I don't see the problem, surely it is bette/safer for all concerned including the horse to have a prep, warm up, chill out, experience...there are enough on here that condemn the rushing of education. + entering 2 classes makes it worth the journey, why should they have to go up a level above and potentially worry/confuse/rush their horse so that you can win?!
As has been sais measure yourself by your own achievements and keeping wrking at it. Well done by the way and good luck for the future.


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## ilvpippa (10 December 2014)

I do intro purely for fun; my horse is a beautiful chestnut tb - looks like she could go do a higher test; but she's not got the attitude for it & I love just showing her off. Rarely get placed as judges tend to not like her


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## ester (10 December 2014)

Moomince Pie said:



			I don't see the point in competing though if you don't bother where you are placed?  Why not just stay at home and go on a hack or school for enjoyment?  Surely competing is a test of where you are in ability (meaning horse/rider combination)?  If you feel you have done well, but then get a bad result, then either something is wrong with your judgement (not meaning you, but speaking metaphorically here) or the judge is a poor one.  To be honest, I sometimes think it's a bit disappointing when you get people who can't be bothered where they are placed entering comps, because they don't make the same amount of effort in preparation and it can be quite disheartening to compete against people like that.
		
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For a natter, to catch up with friends, the chips, my pony always enjoys a chance to show off...


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## Caol Ila (10 December 2014)

I don't follow Princess' argument that having Intro tests lowers the standards of dressage.  I cannot speak for BD, as I have never competed here, but USDF -- United States-land dressage -- they also have Intro, which is walk/trot, and then Training, kind of the equivalent of Prelim, First, which is sort of like Novice, and so on, up to Fourth Level, which is the last stop before FEI.  The pros who are elevating the sport are virtually *never* tottering about on their young horses at those lower levels.  Pretty sure I wasn't riding against Steffan Peters and Ravel at First Level when Ravel was five!  They may do the FEI young horse classes, then you don't see them competing until those horses are around Fourth Level/Prix St. George.  The lower level classes, from Into to First (less so Second, as that's where you introduce collection) are full of happy amateurs who just want to get out and show.  Of course they are not elevating the sport.  They are out showing a level they are comfortable with because they want to show.  They are on all manner of horses, QHs, TBs, Fjords, draft-crosses, Saddlebreds, yeah, some WBs, you name it, and a lot of them were never even going to make it to Second, the whole idea of collection being laughable.  I used to be one of those people (more of an unhappy amateur, but that's a different story) and trust me, if anything, I was probably dragging the sport down.  

But those people who are perpetually hanging around Intro-Training-First for their entire competitive careers are the bread and butter of the sport.  Enough of them pile into the show venue to make running the show financially worthwhile.  Shows in North America would not be viable if they were reliant on people who are actually good, who are riding FEI or who are 'bringing their horse up the levels,' which is very few anyway since as I said, the top riders are not riding a Training Level class.


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## conniegirl (10 December 2014)

Canter can often be the straw that broke the camels back.
I don't do affiliated dressage, I occasionally pootle and do the odd unaff intro or prelim but generally my horses are show horses and when I've got a baby out at thier first show I will Always get them in the ring in an inhand class first and I will always choose a walk trot class first. 
This gives the baby confidence, ring experiance and a nice first time out without worrying about someone cantering up his bottom, haveing to worry about correct legs or having to worry about a probably extremely giddy pony going stupid when cantering in company.
Normaly only takes one or 2 goes before they are ready to canter in public. My current lad was awesome and did canter on his first time out ( he hasn't done a dressage test yet though) my last lad was extremely difficult and a serious problem horse. First time out ever was an intro dressage test in which he scored 72% but cantering would likely have seen me in hospital as with his history he freaked in canter, took me 2 years to gets canter at all but he was rock solid in walk and trot and doing an intro test gave us both the confidence needed to crack on with canter and get going! Once canter was cracked we skipped prelim and went straight to novice


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## Chirmapops (10 December 2014)

In response to the idea that this was a "novice" horse doing an intro - how do you know? Was it doing extensions and counter canter in the warm up, or did it just go nicely? I would always school at least one, preferably two levels above at home, and in the warm up I continue to do the work that makes my mare go well at home - so if that means using half pass and shoulder in to warm up for a novice test then so be it. Pothunting? Not at all - as others have said I just don't want the work I do in the ring to be knocking at the edges of what the horse is capable of at any given time. Most riding clubs won't let you compete at three levels on any given day, so I find it unlikely that they were using an intro to warm up for a novice, and doing an intro then a prelim is perfectly acceptable. OP, you said it was your first competition so I'm not sure why you're surprised that you got beaten by a more experienced combination? Unless we break the classes down to where they can only have one person in each (6-6 1/2 year old warmblood x Welsh mare class, followed by a 12 year-old ex racer under 32 BD points class...) then someone is going to win and everyone else isn't. That's how it goes. You did well to come third on your first ever outing - enjoy that rather than feeling hard done by!


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## stencilface (10 December 2014)

ester said:



			For a natter, to catch up with friends, the chips, my pony always enjoys a chance to show off...
		
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Whoa there!  You forgot cheesy chips, always cheesy chips!


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## georgiegirl (10 December 2014)

Moomince Pie said:



			I don't see the point in competing though if you don't bother where you are placed?  Why not just stay at home and go on a hack or school for enjoyment?  Surely competing is a test of where you are in ability (meaning horse/rider combination)?  If you feel you have done well, but then get a bad result, then either something is wrong with your judgement (not meaning you, but speaking metaphorically here) or the judge is a poor one.  To be honest, I sometimes think it's a bit disappointing when you get people who can't be bothered where they are placed entering comps, because they don't make the same amount of effort in preparation and it can be quite disheartening to compete against people like that.
		
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I think you misunderstand my point......a bad result does not necessarily mean bad judging or something wrong with your judgement - it could just mean there were better combinations there on the day even if it means your horse has gone out and done a really good test for its stage of training or experience - I would still be more than happy with that.

Actually I think its quite offensive to suggest those of us who arent all that bothered about ribbons 'dont make the same amount of preparation...' Winning is the icing on the cake for good preparation and a good performance. Its certainly very lovely to go out and and win/be highly placed or whatever but its not the be and end all of why people compete.


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## bakewell (10 December 2014)

Caol Ila said:



			I
But those people who are perpetually hanging around Intro-Training-First for their entire competitive careers are the bread and butter of the sport.  Enough of them pile into the show venue to make running the show financially worthwhile.  Shows in North America would not be viable if they were reliant on people who are actually good, who are riding FEI or who are 'bringing their horse up the levels,' which is very few anyway since as I said, the top riders are not riding a Training Level class.
		
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Such an important point.
No-one is making money in the current climate. You can have the tin pot all to yourself and others you personally feel are appropriate to compete... but you have to put the show on yourself. Everyone else needs as many bums on seats (saddles) as they can get through the doors. 
If the industry picks up perhaps more selective events will emerge. It requires continued financial investment by all participants to get it there first.

More people lose than win by the very nature of sports. So learning to be a good loser and using that as an incentive to train is critical. 
Because one day you're going to get beaten by a hairy native pony; it happens to all of us.


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## miss_c (10 December 2014)

cptrayes said:



			The venue you were at has told me that they have you a five minute warning
		
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Wow, I wish I had so much spare time as to be able to bother asking venues about other competitors at shows I wasn't even competing....



Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			i said i find lower level warm ups more nerve wracking.
		
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Ditto this!  There are an incredible number of people who ride while staring at their horse's head, oblivious to all around them, resulting in near misses.  Lower levels unaffiliated many do not pass left to left, walk on the track two abreast having a chat, etc.  (Yes, I am completely generalising here!!!) The number of times I've had to almost pull Genie's teeth out when (for example) cantering a circle and somebody walks in front of her when I am a stride away from them.  She takes it much better than she used to though!



ester said:



			For a natter, to catch up with friends, the chips, my pony always enjoys a chance to show off...
		
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Mmmm.... chips.... 


Back to the original post...

I will compete at two levels and have done an intro and a prelim on the same day before.  In fact on one of Fanfare's first outings she won the intro and then was second in the Prelim which floored me.  I have as well on one occasion done a Prelim and an Elementary on the same horse in the same day.  This was because I was entered in the RC Prelim Qualifier by my riding club (as we were completely eligible and stood a chance of qualifying) but wanted to do the mare's first ever Elementary at a venue we were confident at, in a non-pressure environment, and expecting a rubbish result.  In the end she was a cow in the Prelim qualifier but managed 7th on an 'ok' score, and won the elementary on a rubbish score (3 in it!).  Said mare now doesn't do unaff Prelim (that qualifier was her last one) but if there is only one novice I would do the Prelim HC as she is a novice horse and would do two novices if available.  It is common practice for riders to do two different levels on one day, often because they are not yet fully established at the higher level and I certainly wouldn't moan about somebody who is established at novice but also doing an Elem competing.  Part and parcel of the sport and it makes it so much more satisfying if you happen to beat them.

As an aside, if you want a great example of people competing at a lower level than they usually would, just go to Team Quest!  They have now taken measures to limit this next year, but this year there were horses that school at medium competing at Intro.


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## ester (10 December 2014)

stencilface said:



			Whoa there!  You forgot cheesy chips, always cheesy chips!
		
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I thought that went without saying, sorry!


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## Red-1 (10 December 2014)

IMO, as long as someone is eligible for a class then they can compete for me. 

I do find it a bit ironic that some people are accusing good riders on well trained horses of "Pot Hunting" when their argument is that if the good people on well trained horses were not there then they could win a rosette! Eh? IMO the good people did not detract for the warm up or the test, did not interfere with the day right up until the allocation of prizes was an issue.

When I compete I ask if I am eligible,  then enter what class I want. With young or daft horses I have done an intro. I have also done a lower class if I was quite capable of a higher one, but need to work in the afternoon so I need to be done and dusted and home early. Conversely I have done a higher class if I am working in the morning and can't get to the venue until late. 

I actually think it would be a bit haughty if I were to need to leave early and so enter a lower class, that I am fully eligible for, and then tell the organiser that I wish to be HC to give the other people chance as I think I am better than them. I can only imagine if I entered with that attitude then Jay would have a laugh and jump out of the arena or something. 

Jay usually does quite well in whatever class, but the scores seem similar in whatever we enter. He does better with a more difficult test that he has to think about, but there again a more polished performance is expected so it seems to level out. What is quite funny is that at whatever level we are at I look at the other horses and riders and think how posh they all look, and wonder if we look like the poor relations, then when the results come out often we are in the top 3. 

I do think that a lot more riders would be a lot happier and less nerve struck if they paid less attention to the other competitors and just concentrated on what was going on between themselves and their horses. When I go in the ring my primary intention is not to be as perfect as possible, but to make the test experience as nice for Jay as I can. I have shared this primary intent with others, and they have been enjoying the experience a lot more. 

It is unusual for Jay not to be placed, but somehow I am always surprised. I would be a bit disappointed if other competitors were griping behind my back. We all pay our money, we all have different hopes and aspirations, different life circumstances, and it would be impossible to try to second guess the intentions of other competitors.  Most of our local competitions do not have prize money, and the rosette just gets put in a bookcase on a pile, so it is not pot hunting for me. For my motivation is for a good day. That may mean entering a lower test if I have had a stressy week, or if Jay is not on form, or if I need to be away early.


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## JoJo_ (10 December 2014)

I am going to comment from an organiser of BD and unaffiliated (riding club) dressage events. We have a warm up class for every level so for example there is a warmup prelim before the qualifier (affiliated) or league (riding club) prelim. Most people do compete in two classes when they enter our competitions. Sometimes they will enter the prelim qualifier and novice warmup to have a go at the next level up.

We have stopped doing affiliated Intros as nobody entered them but unaffiliated and riding club side we have big entries for intro. We have a rule in place for the warmup class that if the RIDER has been placed 1st-3rd in prelim or above on 3 or more occasions then they must compete HC. This allows the newcomers to dressage to go home with rosettes. This rule doesnt apply to the league class though so a more experienced RC member can still win an intro league but there are rules in place to encourage people to move up to the next level if they win the league.

Being in Aberdeenshire we dont have vast numbers of affiliated entries so I cant say we see people regularly competing at lower levels just to win. The rule prize money and needing 5 or more in the class has been great as we used to regularly be giving out prize money when there was only one or two in the class.

Unaffiliated we have masses of entries and I have to say that the majority do want to move up the levels when they are ready but of course there is the odd one who compete at a lower level to score a win. These are few and far between though.


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## ljohnsonsj (10 December 2014)

If i'm going to a show with hopes of jumping a 1.20 i will always do the 1.10 or 1.15 open, that applies for anything i jump unless its a young horse then probably only one class or one class and a clear round. I suppose i could get accused of pot hunting as i have a 'diesel horse' who is consistant, but not the most talented jumper,she would never do the bigger classes but is quick around 1m and 1.05s and very quick- I'm eligable and i can get a pole like everyone else so its everyones game


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## cptrayes (10 December 2014)

Interesting thread this.  How would people define a pot hunter?  For me, it would be anyone who enters any class competitively when they have already had more than one win two levels above that class or are consistently topping one level above that class.

I would exclude, hopefully obviously, anyone dropping levels for specific training purposes.

I'm not saying they shouldn't do it if the rules allow. I'm saying that I can't imagine what possible satisfaction it gives them to do it.


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## khalswitz (10 December 2014)

dianchi said:



			Actually most Intro tests are so ghastly to attempt on a wobbly youngster i dont know why people think they should start babies there-
10m 1/2 circles on a 17.2hh 4yo- great fun!

Equally first comps are not fun or thrilling- they are horrid nerve wracking events that we wonder why we do it, until we get off and its all over! 

However as it always comes down to- if their eligible they can enter- dont like it train to beat them!
		
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This. Intro is at a higher standard of trot work than the first half of the prelim tests - you don't see half tens again til Novice. Horrific things for young horses!! 

I did Intros with my current horse, but tbh mainly because we were both inexperienced - I'd never done dressage before and he was off the track. But I look back and in fact he scored better and was happier at prelim as it was asking less, despite the canter being crap. 



Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			i dont want to de-rail the thread so this will be my final thoughts (and they are only that MY thoughts and you can disagree or agree, but its not going to change my mind one iota..)

its a sliding scale of *why are you doing this*-if it cant canter a 20 x 20 m circle in an arena, in front of 1 judge then to me personally that kind of screams lack of prep..... the first time a horse goes off site should be to hire a diff arena away from home, when presumably you would take advantage of a schooling situation and thus canter? and you should do that until the horse is relaxed..............and if you can do that, then really, going and doing a prelim isnt too different?

as far as the warm up goes, i find intro/prelim/novice far more terrifying (especially given HOW many people seem not to do the above prep and are thus presumably careering round on equally terrified horses!) than warming up with higher levels, who at least can canter/halt or collect and shorten a few steps to manoeuvre out the way.

totally get that every horse is not being produced with GP in mind but to my mind warm up arena control is a safety issue and you cant just take the tack that "oh im not doing it seriously so it doesnt matter" because if your nervous horse, at its very first adventure off the yard, explodes,careers off barely able to stay upright in canter, with its terrified rider screaming and collides with another horse, the rider of that horse will be taking it VERY seriously and might not be too impressed............

preparation is key............ive had some absolute knob-heads in the past, but never caused an accident because the horse was sufficiently prepped as to be manoeuvrable and thus i could stay out the way...........i personally just feel intro tests encourage people out in to public before they are really ready.

also, i can bet you any money that whilst i can brazen it out, i WILL feel that twinge of fear at Goof's first show. But i will have done all the prep and put every building block in place to make it as safe and as easy as possible. If you really are SO nervous of cantering at a show, then perhaps come rider confidence building is needed too.

and before anyone even says it-para riders and small kids are totally diff kettle of fish, kids cant rationalise in the same way adults can and very tiny tots probably lack the upper body strength to canter anyway.
		
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I totally agree. Pony Club D tests are walk and trot, which is perfect for little kids who actually can't canter but still want to have fun and compete. But these kids won't be going to Interbranch... Intro tests are actually harder than PC w/t tests, and basically very badly designed... And encourage people who are afraid to canter (which surely can be the only reason for not attempting p4 which is literally cantering around the arena) to enter into a stressful warm up environment without being prepared to push their horses forward.


Regarding the initial point about pot hunting - the people who win the classes generally are more experienced at that level. Even in Intro, it isn't often you go to your very first show and win. People stay at a level until they are confident and the combo ready to move up. When moving up, you don't just jump in - you compete at both for a start (BD has a 14 point rule at the level above which for us would be about three normal tests which is fair!), to get experience. So it could easily be a warm up for te level above, without it being pot hunting.

Many horses I see at BD in prelim are easily schooling Novice at home and in the warm up, and are pulling out very good performances. Same at Novice - the ones who win are working away happily at Elem. So tbh I don't really agree with the OP... There are eligibility rules that obviously have to be followed, but otherwise, if you get beat, get inspired!!


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## Art Nouveau (10 December 2014)

stencilface said:



			Whoa there!  You forgot cheesy chips, always cheesy chips!
		
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Nooo, chips and gravy! Proper thick northern gravy.


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## Pigeon (10 December 2014)

Definitely agree, take it as motivation!! I does annoy me when people enter classes competitively that they shouldn't be in, but dressage is about personal improvement, right?  Ignore them and decide if you are happy with your day, regardless of if you placed.

I sometimes do classes as warmups because Pippy is weird about places he doesn't know, but I enter HC! Especially as I know he won't place, unless the judge has a penchant for horses with their eyes bulging out their head


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## coffeeandabagel (10 December 2014)

What makes me sad is adults on nippy ponies winning 60 and 70 cm classes at local shows - give the poor kids a chance! I have a "friend" on facbook who throughout the summer proudly posts pics of her pony dripping in rosettes from these classes as well as 80 and 90 classes other weeks. Sad.

I will enter Intro and Prelim on my mare - we can walk, trot and we can canter (just - but she is gawky) , but we are rubbish at the canter transition at the moment so the Intro is our level but we enter a level above because its so time consuming and expensive to travel 20 miles for one test. I like the adrenaline buzz of competing even if we arent competitive and she gets two looks at the boards and the judge.


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## Pigeon (10 December 2014)

I don't think people enter intro just because there's no canter. I think it's because the judge is more likely to be not too harsh, and you can ride the horse in a bit more of a relaxed outline. Just a thought


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## khalswitz (10 December 2014)

dianchi said:



			Actually most Intro tests are so ghastly to attempt on a wobbly youngster i dont know why people think they should start babies there-
10m 1/2 circles on a 17.2hh 4yo- great fun!

Equally first comps are not fun or thrilling- they are horrid nerve wracking events that we wonder why we do it, until we get off and its all over! 

However as it always comes down to- if their eligible they can enter- dont like it train to beat them!
		
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Pigeon said:



			I don't think people enter intro just because there's no canter. I think it's because the judge is more likely to be not too harsh, and you can ride the horse in a bit more of a relaxed outline. Just a thought 

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But they don't. The judge is looking for exactly the same as a prelim test. There just isn't any canter. The judge is more likely to be more lenient because it is unaff rather than because it is intro.


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## spookypony (10 December 2014)

JoJo_ said:



			Being in Aberdeenshire we dont have vast numbers of affiliated entries so I cant say we see people regularly competing at lower levels just to win. The rule prize money and needing 5 or more in the class has been great as we used to regularly be giving out prize money when there was only one or two in the class.
		
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Totally know what you mean about Aberdeenshire!  If you are desperate for rosettes, you're better off getting to Elementary and beyond as fast as possible. 



khalswitz said:



			This. Intro is at a higher standard of trot work than the first half of the prelim tests - you don't see half tens again til Novice. Horrific things for young horses!!
		
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Ah, the advantages of small horses!  I think one reason the SP did better at Novice is that the greater the number of curlicues in the test, the less opportunity for him to get wobbly on straight lines. The smaller shapes themselves, he found easy (and the Ballerina Mare isn't much longer than he is).




			And encourage people who are afraid to canter (which surely can be the only reason for not attempting p4 which is literally cantering around the arena) to enter into a stressful warm up environment without being prepared to push their horses forward.
		
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I hate P4. Haven't ridden it in quite a while, but I was always wondering if I'd missed out something somewhere, because nothing happens (other than loads of straight lines to get wobbly on).


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## khalswitz (10 December 2014)

spookypony said:



			Totally know what you mean about Aberdeenshire!  If you are desperate for rosettes, you're better off getting to Elementary and beyond as fast as possible. 



Ah, the advantages of small horses!  I think one reason the SP did better at Novice is that the greater the number of curlicues in the test, the less opportunity for him to get wobbly on straight lines. The smaller shapes themselves, he found easy (and the Ballerina Mare isn't much longer than he is).



I hate P4. Haven't ridden it in quite a while, but I was always wondering if I'd missed out something somewhere, because nothing happens (other than loads of straight lines to get wobbly on).
		
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Geoff isn't particularly long, but he is a big lad with a big stride and is not the most laterally flexible... We found it so hard!! I'll be honest, next horse won't bother with Intro - straight in for easy prelims. I know what you mean about Novice - Geoff is ACE at straight lines (8/8.5 for CLs every time!) but he just isn't that bendy yet, and there isn't enough chance to show off straightness at N compared to P!!!


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## RachelFerd (10 December 2014)

Afraid I'm with PS on this one. Really don't see the purpose to intro tests - there are lots of ways in which you can go out to parties without having to compete - you can introduce your horse to all the necessary things before going out to compete. There are a million and one training clinics, group training clinics, dressage test practice days out there... why compete before you feel confident that the horse can complete basic movements? 

.... However! What REALLY gets on my nerves is perpetual-prelim-itis!! Why do SO many people stick at prelim level, forever, and ever, and ever, and ever, and ever? If you are established at prelim, it's not hard to move up to novice - so why do so few people do it? It's not like jumping where you may understandably be nervous of bigger fences and knocking your horses confidence. It means that those that do move up to novice (unaffiliated) end up in stupidly uncompetitive classes where there are only 2 or 3 entrants, yet there will have been 20 in the prelim prior. I really don't understand....

Although if someone could arrange some new tests without any walk movements, I too would be happy!


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## brighthair (11 December 2014)

I did an intro for my first few tests because I was a petrified rider who wasn't happy to canter. It wasn't that I was happily cantering at home, I wasn't
I guess when I get out next year people may see me as pot hunting (they have done before), because I was doing an intro test on a horse that's been out at medium. I will be out at novice or elementary when I next compete
But I see it as she was at medium with another rider not me, and she isn't a horse you can sit on and not ride, can be pretty tricky at times!


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## PolarSkye (11 December 2014)

georgiegirl said:



			Actually I think its quite offensive to suggest those of us who arent all that bothered about ribbons 'dont make the same amount of preparation...' Winning is the icing on the cake for good preparation and a good performance. Its certainly very lovely to go out and and win/be highly placed or whatever but its not the be and end all of why people compete.
		
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I agree with this . . . I wouldn't go so far as to say that we didn't care about placing or rosettes, more that in the very early days it simply wasn't a reasonable expectation so we focussed much more on progressing in relation to previous tests.  Dressage tests are, after all, a way of demonstrating understanding and implementation of the scales of training in a formal, structured way.  I was much happier when we received our first test sheet that didn't have the word "tense" on it than I was when he won both his classes at OEC.  His last test before he went lame was the best, most consistent he had done to date - but the marks didn't reflect that (as in, it wasn't his best score) and he didn't place . . . I was over the moon with them both, though.  

P

P.S.  And, yes, cheesy chips are a must


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## cptrayes (11 December 2014)

RachelFerd said:



			Afraid I'm with PS on this one. Really don't see the purpose to intro tests - there are lots of ways in which you can go out to parties without having to compete - you can introduce your horse to all the necessary things before going out to compete. There are a million and one training clinics, group training clinics, dressage test practice days out there... why compete before you feel confident that the horse canU complete basic movements? 

....
		
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 Because not all horses and/or riders behave the same in a genuine test environment.

Because some of us have babies that aren't ready to canter in a test, and no other horse to ride, but we would still like the day out and think it will be educational for the horse.


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## BuzzLightyear (11 December 2014)

venturing into the lions den....

as a person with a 5 yr old 'hairy native pony'I, for one, am glad that intros exist. Natives dont mature as fast as WB types and, although we can canter just fine, our tranisition in and out can be best described as wayward an can stress him out if it goes wrong- so we leave the canter work at home and have been out learning the ropes at Intro.

Yes, we are often up against prelim competitors using it as a warm up but I'm not there to worry about them, just to try and improve on our scores each and every time out. I try to go to venues which run multiple tests as he goes better in the second test once he's been in and seen the arena and car of doom! We've done 3 comps this year and scored 67, 69 and 73% respectively against decent competition - often beating prelim combinations.

 My boy is never going to be a world beater as he doesnt have the reach of longer limbs TB/ WB types, but he is being produced slowly and correctly. The intro is only a means to an end for us, teaching him practical skills in a real life environment so that we can start next year with a couple of unafil prelims before affiliating.We wouldnt get that in a clinic environment or in an arena hire.


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## eahotson (11 December 2014)

As far as I am aware walk trot tests were introduced primarily to give novice riders often with novice horses a chance to dip their toe in the water with minimal stress.Hopefully they will then get the bug! Some may just want to do the occasional one at club level and have fun! That's what its all about so if you are winning/competing at a higher level do I think you are being unfair competing competitively in intros? Yes I do. You can always enter non comp to give the young horse etc. a warm up.


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## Wishful (11 December 2014)

Done quite a lot of unaff and BE riding.  The number of riders who seem to forget to breathe once the bell has gone is staggering.  Add the nervous not breathing in canter and some would be fainting!

Intro for me is a rider schooling test as much as anything.  The rider learns to breathe in a 'competition' environment without the pressure of cantering.

Have only done unaff on riding school ponies myself but didn't find competing per se worrying,  used to compete internationally at fencing so competing isn't scary.  Jumping on the other hand I have to consciously remember to breathe.  But I did get nervous at my first big fencing competitions so got it out of the way then.

Some people freeze in exams, some find being judged scary, some thrive on the adrenaline of performing.  We're all different, so it's good to have different routes into competing.


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## eahotson (11 December 2014)

Further more.To those who say improve well, a lot of people have horses.Keep them on an a modest budget and have to juggle time with family, full time work etc.They have a horse, very modest competitive  ambitions and just want a bit of fun.This is not a crime.I wish more clubs would run a walk trot championship league restricted to people who have never competed above prelim level and have never won a first at prelim or above.


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## Palindrome (11 December 2014)

1. Enter at A and wiggle down the centre line.

2. Halt at G with bum squished out to one side.

3. Move off as if stung by a bee, stop and stare in amazement at the judge's hair color, turn right.

4. decide that you don't want to track left at C

5. crab round the corner and set off fly leaping at H (that is where there accuracy comes in!!!)

6. pick up perfectly at K and carry on as if nothing happened

7. Working canter at A and complete 20 metre-ish egg shaped pattern 

8. include large buck when passing X

9. KX walk across diagonal on a long rein

10. XM still in walk proceed to raise horses head as if imitating a giraffe staring at something no-one else can even see in the distance, extra points for snorting 

11 MA sideways crab movement in trot still doing impression of giraffe 


Adding my bit...

12. K Canter very close to the rail

13. between E and H rider to hit the rail with their foot, horse explodes bucking, riders fall off

(yes, we did that at our first test  )


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## Hayleighm175 (11 December 2014)

I did my first into test this year, and won with 73% and then into b with 69%. I was actually confronted by some people in the warm up who weren't happy that I was in intro not prelim. 
I had to explain myself. But why should I?
it was both my first ever test, and my 6 year old rescues, and I had no idea how she would react.  
I had to explain that she is completely unbalanced in canter and too tense.
now I know how she will behave I will aim for preliminary with her.
I also had no idea of what marks she would get and was over the moon with her!!

She's still not ready for preliminary but getting there. I don't think I'd have any issue with someone using it as a warm up for their preliminary test... as I think that's what I'd do to try and relax my own!


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## eahotson (11 December 2014)

Palindrome said:



			1. Enter at A and wiggle down the centre line.

2. Halt at G with bum squished out to one side.

3. Move off as if stung by a bee, stop and stare in amazement at the judge's hair color, turn right.

4. decide that you don't want to track left at C

5. crab round the corner and set off fly leaping at H (that is where there accuracy comes in!!!)

6. pick up perfectly at K and carry on as if nothing happened

7. Working canter at A and complete 20 metre-ish egg shaped pattern 

8. include large buck when passing X

9. KX walk across diagonal on a long rein

10. XM still in walk proceed to raise horses head as if imitating a giraffe staring at something no-one else can even see in the distance, extra points for snorting 

11 MA sideways crab movement in trot still doing impression of giraffe 


Adding my bit...

12. K Canter very close to the rail

13. between E and H rider to hit the rail with their foot, horse explodes bucking, riders fall off

(yes, we did that at our first test  )
		
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Well at least you completed the test and probably livened up the judges day!!!!!!


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (11 December 2014)

eahotson said:



			Further more.To those who say improve well, a lot of people have horses.Keep them on an a modest budget and have to juggle time with family, full time work etc.They have a horse, very modest competitive  ambitions and just want a bit of fun.This is not a crime.I wish more clubs would run a walk trot championship league restricted to people who have never competed above prelim level and have never won a first at prelim or above.
		
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yes of course, lets just make up more classes, ever easier, so that every class only has one entry and everyones a winner!!!!!!!!!

if you do it for fun you dont mind not being placed and if you do it very seriously then you will have to train a bit more seriously!

any flipping horse is capable of canter, even if you can only school it once a week it can learn to canter in a prelim acceptable way.................plenty of people on very modest budgets with no facilities and families do very very well because instead of sitting around moaning on the internet they get the hell out there and work at it, 4am, 10pm, if thats the only time they can ride, they do it, day in day out to improve.


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## cptrayes (11 December 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			yes of course, lets just make up more classes, ever easier, so that every class only has one entry and everyones a winner!!!!!!!!!

if you do it for fun you dont mind not being placed and if you do it very seriously then you will have to train a bit more seriously!

any flipping horse is capable of canter, even if you can only school it once a week it can learn to canter in a prelim acceptable way.................plenty of people on very modest budgets with no facilities and families do very very well because instead of sitting around moaning on the internet they get the hell out there and work at it, 4am, 10pm, if thats the only time they can ride, they do it, day in day out to improve.
		
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I rode an Intro on a horse last year who had been backed four months earlier and did not reliably give me a correct canter lead. Being young and immature I was not prepared to drill him until he got it right, I waited for him to mature. I wanted a day out with him, for experience, last year, and I went and had a real fun time with him and my OH, and a great cappuccino.

Why, oh why, do you begrudge me, or anyone else this as a first experience of a show environment?

http://youtu.be/DWhl7yAST5A


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (11 December 2014)

my response was not aimed at you CPT, stop turning this in to the CPT show.

it was in response to the suggestion that we should run MORE championships especially for people who have a long list of *cant do's*.

if you had a good day out and didnt moan you didnt win, i couldnt give a stuff what you did and i dont begrudge you your day out tootling around because it doesnt affect me one iota as i hope never to be at the same show as you (for various reasons).

but my opinion remains that intro's do nothing to encourage people to up their game or raise their standards.


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## cptrayes (11 December 2014)

PS. He did the warm up perfectly and wore L plates until just before the bell rang. The video aspect ratio is wrong, he is not that short backed


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## cptrayes (11 December 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			my response was not aimed at you CPT, stop turning this in to the CPT show.

it was in response to the suggestion that we should run MORE championships especially for people who have a long list of *cant do's*.

if you had a good day out and didnt moan you didnt win, i couldnt give a stuff what you did and i dont begrudge you your day out tootling around because it doesnt affect me one iota as i hope never to be at the same show as you (for various reasons).

but my opinion remains that intro's do nothing to encourage people to up their game or raise their standards.
		
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But it is aimed at me, as one of many Intro riders, and I can only reply to you from my own experience of an occasion when a horse who could not do a Prelim canter was taken to do an Intro. Directly relevant to your post when you said any horse can do a Prelim canter.

I think you've lost track of what the majority of riders want out of life. And your posts really do read to me as if you want to stop the rest of us from just having a bit of fun or who think that an Intro is of benefit to some novice horses and riders.


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## Nannon (11 December 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			but my opinion remains that intro's do nothing to encourage people to up their game or raise their standards.
		
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This!


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## Tiddlypom (11 December 2014)

I've been out of the competitive dressage scene for 20 years. In that time, restricted classes and intro classes have arrived.

I'm not at all convinced. I'm another who thinks that prelim is best to remain as the lowest level. 

I've posted about this before, but when I entered my first ever BD elementary test (with strong reservations from my trainer) on my HW ex RS cob, I was over the moon to be placed second in a big class. Not only that, but I was a close second to Stephen Clarke under a List 1 judge! As an everyday rider, who grafts hard to make up for a lack of natural ability, that will remain an unforgettable achievement.

Dumbing down means nothing. I always want to aspire to be up with the big boys, not getting a frillie for bumbling around an arena slightly less badly than the others.


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## cptrayes (11 December 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			but my opinion remains that intro's do nothing to encourage people to up their game or raise their standards.
		
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Of course it does. It encourages people to up their game from being to afraid to compete at all, to entering their first competions.  In fact, just what BD meant it to do.

I can't, though, understand why anyone would pay to do an affiliated one, what's the point in that?


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (11 December 2014)

cptrayes said:



			But it is aimed at me, as one of many Intro riders, and I can only reply to you from my own experience.

I think you've lost track of what the majority of riders want out of life. And your posts really do read to me as if you want to stop the rest of us from just having a bit of fun or who think that an
Intro is of benefit to some novice horses and riders.
		
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well fortunately most people do seem able to grasp what im getting at, so if you cant, again-no skin off my nose.

man of the people i teach are in the unaff prelim/novice category, a few at BD prelim/novice and a few BD elem/medium and training adv med............... Without exception they are all desperately competitive, determined to move up the levels and not one of them competes for a good day out.
Fortunately my *oh ffs come on, get on with it* attitude doesnt seem to go against me as i have clients coming out my ears atm.
Not one of them wants a jolly day out and not one of them would want to win an unaff heavily restricted intro class...............................which kind of  leads me to think a lot of people SAY one thing but deep down want more. No one wants to stagnate at the same level forever, its not human nature.

if intro classes disappeared tomorrow i dont think people would miss them as much as they think they would, it would just be the kick up the butt they need to move up to prelim, which 99.999999999999% of them would probably find easier than they think.

People get so wound up about it, but riding really isnt rocket science.


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## HotToTrot (11 December 2014)

Matafleur said:



			I'm constantly being beaten by people that are better than me,
		
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This made me giggle.  Oh.  Yeah.  Me too!  Drat!


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## cptrayes (11 December 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			No one wants to stagnate at the same level forever, its not human nature.
		
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Let's replace the emotive word with one a bit less pejorative and say




			No-one wants to stay at the same level forever, it's not human nature.
		
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It may not be your nature, but it is very much in the nature of many people to want to stay well within their comfort zone. Older people are also generally much more risk averse than their younger selves, something you'll probably discover for yourself when you hit the menopause.


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## eahotson (11 December 2014)

A



cptrayes said:



			Let's replace the emotive word with one a bit less pejorative and say



It may not be your o them.nature, but it is very much in the nature of many people to want to stay well within their comfort zone. Older people are also generally much more risk averse than their younger selvoyes, something you'll probably discover for yourself when you hit the menopause.
		
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Agree AND if you don't like/agree with intos don't watch, judge teach or enter them.Leave them for people who do want to do them.Western also have their walk trot tests which are very popular, A riding instructor I know who helps with a riding club had words with a competitor who rides at MEDIUM and who had entered competitively an intro class.She said it wasn't against the rules!!! I think they and others have probably revisited that since.


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## eahotson (11 December 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			yes of course, lets just make up more classes, ever easier, so that every class only has one entry and everyones a winner!!!!!!!!!

if you do it for fun you dont mind not being placed and if you do it very seriously then you will have to train a bit more seriously!

any flipping horse is capable of canter, even if you can only school it once a week it can learn to canter in a prelim acceptable way.................plenty of people on very modest budgets with no facilities and families do very very well because instead of sitting around moaning on the internet they get the hell out there and work at it, 4am, 10pm, if thats the only time they can ride, they do it, day in day out to improve.
		
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 at unaffiliated classes.
I think you will find that there are many entries in intro and prelim, a lot less in elementary novice etc.certainly


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## eahotson (11 December 2014)

cptrayes said:



			I rode an Intro on a horse last year who had been backed four months earlier and did not reliably give me a correct canter lead. Being young and immature I was not prepared to drill him until he got it right, I waited for him to mature. I wanted a day out with him, for experience, last year, and I went and had a real fun time with him and my OH, and a great cappuccino.

Why, oh why, do you begrudge me, or anyone else this as a first experience of a show environment?

http://youtu.be/DWhl7yAST5A

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You had FUN CPTrayes. Don't you know that's not allowed.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (11 December 2014)

im glad to hear that 1.you know me that well and 2.can see in to the future.......

clearly not all women are affected in that way given the ages of some of the top women across all equestrian disciplines.

my point is that i teach a wide variety of people of all ages and none of them would actually want to stay at the same level and none of them would want any more restricted classes to make their chances of a placing higher.

i dont *let* them stagnate and they dont get upset, they just kick on and work harder. I actually think a lot of people on here making a big deal out of this, would be 100% fine if told to put their big girl pants on and get on with it. Sometimes thats all it takes, someone to say-oh come ON, you can so do this.............and then they realise they can.

i see it time and time again.

intro only gives people an excuse not to do it themselves, if it wasnt there they would be forced to canter in competition which i personally dont feel is a bad thing-horses have 3 basic gaits for competition use(so excl gallop)why on earth do we have classes that dont showcase the training across all 3 gaits.
its only because they have the option NOT to canter that it becomes a big deal, you can bet money that if there were walk only tests introduced all of a sudden trot would become just as big a deal!

ack, i cant be bothered to waste any more brain power on this. I will always feel intro tests are a form of dumbing down.

kindly dont make any further assumptions about me, or what i may or may not do in the future CPT. you dont know me and you never will,so again,stop making it personal.


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## Tapir (11 December 2014)

My local competition centre has far, far more entries in the intro class than in any other.  They might get a handful of people in the novice and even fewer in elementary.  If it wasn't for all the intro entries they couldn't afford to run any competitions at all.  I admit to being a bit unimpressed with the addition of intro classes at first, but although I've ridden to elem level, I still started my new horse off in intro as I had no idea how she would react to the whole situation.  I did, however move on as soon as possible - without waiting to win a class.

There are lots of people who are content to do a nice intro test and get good scores without wanting to move on, why shouldn't they be allowed to compete, maybe win a rosette and have a nice time too?  The people who PS teaches are obviously not a cross-section of the horse world.  If they weren't ambitious in some way, they wouldn't be having lessons with you would they?

Maybe if intro entrants put their "big girl pants on" they would be able to do a prelim test, but perhaps they'd rather have a nice time, without being scared or pressured?


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## HufflyPuffly (11 December 2014)

But I think the point is if Intro wasn't there, those high entries would be in the prelim instead?

I'm not fussed wither way about the state of play of intro's I'll probably make use of them if my giant baby horse ever stops growing and makes it to an age I can back her .

However I do object to people whining about 'pot' hunters, just work harder. Whether it is at intro or inter 1, if you're out for a nice day you don't care who wins. 
For whats it's worth Topaz is a rather unlikely dressage horse and have gone from (not the dreaded) intro to elementary in one year, she has now qualified to go to Hartpury next year for the winter champs. This from someone who isn't a natural talent, horsey wasn't bought or bred for it and I work full time, can only manage lessons as and when and all without an indoor school!

I hate loosing and not being competitive so we work hard and making sure our preparations are in place. We started at intro as Topaz could be explosive so I wanted to do a bit of damage limitation, if intro wasn't available we would have just done the prelims instead...

Anyway that's my ramblings!

x x


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## Bede (11 December 2014)

Wise words Tapir

Obviously the powers that be at BD feel that Intro tests are worthwhile; otherwise they would not exist.


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## Palindrome (11 December 2014)

The intro classes at the small local shows I go too are generally more packed than the other classes so I think they are very popular. 

I started with them as my horse had trouble to balance at canter. She could canter a 20 meters circles but would not be consistent on a long side so I had to push her a bit more forward on the long side and she would sometimes fall back into trot. She wasn't a danger to anyone in the warm up, just wasn't balanced in canter out of the circle. I didn't want to bully her into doing it so choose to go intro. We did 3 intros (2 1st ones only intro and 3rd one intro+prelim) and at our 3rd one we came 2nd unrestricted so that's when we moved up.

People do these classes for all sort of reasons, it's a bit narrow minded to think that if you are not willing/able to do a prelim you are a danger to others and shouldn't be out or you are pottering about pot hunting. 

On the pot hunting side of things though, I had one last time which left me a bit surprised. We did our first novice at a local small dressage competition this Summer (when I say small I really mean small, we were 7 in total to do the novice and no categories). The YM and show organizer on her 18hh bay warmblood comes to ask me if she can go before me as she is apparently always stressed before going in the arena. I say yes, a bit surprised that she is competing but well. End of story, she won it and had the cheek to say when she got handed in her red rosette by a member of her staff: "oh no, me? I was rubbish".  
Ahah, really? what does that make all of us then, worst than rubbish? I don't compete very often (in fact only 4 times in 4 years), is that normal practice to enroll in your own competition at your yard (as in you are yard manager)? This wasn't even a qualifier for an unaffiliated championship so I fail to see what she got in it other than red frilli.

ETA: I think she mentioned her horse was a 6 yrs old so not a baby


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## HufflyPuffly (11 December 2014)

But maybe she was really surprised to have won?
Topaz won her first two dressage tests and I have never been more shocked, my mum even made the organiser double check. My shock wasn't to belittle the other competitors just that I was, shocked.

It's all about perception, she might have been pot hunting, but I'm more willing to think the horses wasn't the easiest for what ever reason. silly, naughty, etc and entering a comp on home turf suited her and might have been the only way for her to compete (horse wont load etc). Of course I don't know the person in question and yes she might have just been pot hunting, but equally there could be another side to it...


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## Palindrome (11 December 2014)

AlexHyde said:



			But maybe she was really surprised to have won?
Topaz won her first two dressage tests and I have never been more shocked, my mum even made the organiser double check. My shock wasn't to belittle the other competitors just that I was, shocked.

It's all about perception, she might have been pot hunting, but I'm more willing to think the horses wasn't the easiest for what ever reason. silly, naughty, etc and entering a comp on home turf suited her and might have been the only way for her to compete (horse wont load etc). Of course I don't know the person in question and yes she might have just been pot hunting, but equally there could be another side to it...
		
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Yes, but why say she was rubbish? She could just have said she was surprised. 

The main problem I think is that she is afraid of her horse as she said he jumped the fence last time, I replied he would make a good cross country horse then with a smile (she didn't think it was funny). It is still weird to ride against a professional on what looks like a purpose bred at their own yard in a very small unaffiliated. She could have gone HC. Am not loosing sleep at night though, just thought it a bit peculiar.

ETA: horse was calm and sweet, but strapping 18hh warmblood gelding


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## HufflyPuffly (11 December 2014)

If he'd jumped the fence again at least she wouldn't have won .

Sorry made me chuckle, probably a poor choice of words from her, if she is indeed scared of the horse then she probably does think she's rubbish and so said it without thinking?

Swings and roundabouts for me, there is always another day and if it happens a lot at one venue maybe see what other venues there are?

x x


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## Matafleur (11 December 2014)

HotToTrot said:



			This made me giggle.  Oh.  Yeah.  Me too!  Drat!
		
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Lol! It's a great annoyance to me that all those people insist on entering the same classes as me. Although, if they didn't, it's possible I may be the only one in the class... :-D


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## lucemoose (11 December 2014)

All this thread has taught me is to fear the menopause in terror as I will have to start doing intro tests?!


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## rara007 (11 December 2014)

lucemoose said:



			All this thread has taught me is to fear the menopause in terror as I will have to start doing intro tests?!
		
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## wench (11 December 2014)

My horse has the capability of working well. I can only ride at the weekends so progressing the schooling work on an ex showjumper whose natural/trained default to go around like a giraffe on speed is somewhat slow.

IMO her canter (and whilst she can canter nicely) is not working in a soft enough frame for me yet, so I have been mainly concentrating on the walk and trot at home, after all if I can't do it in walk and trot, I can't do it in canter.

I could wait until the canter is sorted to take her out to shows, and enter prelim, but it would be a total waste of time, as the canter would not work.

She is very nosey/tense in walk and trot tests and I have fought with her on a couple of occasions. However we are progressing, and getting better. Once the "issues" are cracked I wouldn't mind entering a prelim, until then, it will be walk and trot, as I stand a better chance of getting her to do what I want rather than cantering around!


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## ester (11 December 2014)

Bede said:



			Wise words Tapir

Obviously the powers that be at BD feel that Intro tests are worthwhile; otherwise they would not exist.
		
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Most RCs and other unaff organisers had already invented their own by the time BD joined in!


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## nikkimariet (11 December 2014)

lucemoose said:



			All this thread has taught me is to fear the menopause in terror as I will have to start doing intro tests?!
		
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Hahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## ester (11 December 2014)

lucemoose said:



			All this thread has taught me is to fear the menopause in terror as I will have to start doing intro tests?!
		
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If you're not careful it seems it can also lead you to just showing miniature shetlands!


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## HeresHoping (11 December 2014)

One perimenopausal woman's thoughts... 

I used to ride at elementary level.  Well, I evented back in the day when most events were long format and when you reached 'open' then you were jumping around max height 4' fences and your dressage test was what used to be called 'advanced' elementary.  A looooong time ago.  

And then I took a break for 18 years.  Returned to riding by happy accident but with two young children the old nerves were not quite what they used to be, and despite having done a few triathlons, the old position, aids and their applications were a bit, well, rusty.  And some were set in quite the wrong place.

I've not had the greatest luck with horses but am determined.  At the ripe old age of 43 am absolutely determined to get around a good BE Novice before I'm 50.  But this is about dressage and I am of the old school that has been taught that nailing the dressage means hopefully, nailing the event.  Yes, I am competitive.  Very.  Mostly with myself.

I have a fabulous dressage instructor.  And I am almost capable of riding a novice with at least one of the horses I ride - bit of canter work needed   But I will always do an intro as a warm up.  It warms me up, it warms the horse up.  It means fine tuning movements to that particular arena - learning where we are likely to 'lose' marks because there's a spook or a shadow or a blade of grass bent the wrong way.  But most of all I do it because I find the judges comments invaluable.  I give myself points to aim for - NOT rosettes.  If I had a 7 for a particular movement last time, this time I want an 8.  And if I'm not getting it, I will know exactly what was wrong and what I need to think about for the prelim.  I'll stop doing intros when I move up from the prelim, and my prelim will be my 'throw away' test.  It's for me.  It's not for the pots.

And actually, I dispute the comment that any horse can canter.  I have a ride on a 6 year old.  In the last year we have pulled his canters up from 3s to 5s. We still get the comments 'hollowed' and 'unbalanced'.  He is. Pretty poor, wouldn't you say?  But he's such a gangly horse that I don't think we're going to get better without better muscle.  Which is coming, slowly, with his filling out.  Doing an intro with him is so that we can benchmark his improvements on a month to month basis. I'd rather know that all our efforts in our walk and trot are resulting in improvement.  If we ever reach the 70% marker, then I'll know that we're ready to beat the prelim.


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## sportsmansB (11 December 2014)

In Northern Ireland there is no Intro at affiliated dressage
Partly as a result, the affiliated organisation is really struggling for members and cash! Unaffiliated competitions especially with an Intro (sometimes a 'newcomers' intro as a separate class for the really green ones which is nice) get big entries. 

I do find Princess Sparkles comments a bit elitist to be honest and there are many people who want to get ring practice themselves or are finding their feet on a new horse and feel comfortable going and doing an intro. They may not even know until they go and try what level they and their horse are at in comparison to the standard required or in comparison to others- not everyone has years of training experience or accessibility to great teaching or even knowledgeable eyes on the ground....  They also fund the sport she is so keen on!! This attitude is the reason why many feel dressage is unapproachable and snooty. Which is terribly disappointing as I have so enjoyed so many of her informative posts on other topics.


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## PolarSkye (11 December 2014)

HeresHoping said:



			One perimenopausal woman's thoughts... 

I used to ride at elementary level.  Well, I evented back in the day when most events were long format and when you reached 'open' then you were jumping around max height 4' fences and your dressage test was what used to be called 'advanced' elementary.  A looooong time ago.  

And then I took a break for 18 years.  Returned to riding by happy accident but with two young children the old nerves were not quite what they used to be, and despite having done a few triathlons, the old position, aids and their applications were a bit, well, rusty.  And some were set in quite the wrong place.

I've not had the greatest luck with horses but am determined.  At the ripe old age of 43 am absolutely determined to get around a good BE Novice before I'm 50.  But this is about dressage and I am of the old school that has been taught that nailing the dressage means hopefully, nailing the event.  Yes, I am competitive.  Very.  Mostly with myself.

I have a fabulous dressage instructor.  And I am almost capable of riding a novice with at least one of the horses I ride - bit of canter work needed   But I will always do an intro as a warm up.  It warms me up, it warms the horse up.  It means fine tuning movements to that particular arena - learning where we are likely to 'lose' marks because there's a spook or a shadow or a blade of grass bent the wrong way.  But most of all I do it because I find the judges comments invaluable.  I give myself points to aim for - NOT rosettes.  If I had a 7 for a particular movement last time, this time I want an 8.  And if I'm not getting it, I will know exactly what was wrong and what I need to think about for the prelim.  I'll stop doing intros when I move up from the prelim, and my prelim will be my 'throw away' test.  It's for me.  It's not for the pots.

And actually, I dispute the comment that any horse can canter.  I have a ride on a 6 year old.  In the last year we have pulled his canters up from 3s to 5s. We still get the comments 'hollowed' and 'unbalanced'.  He is. Pretty poor, wouldn't you say?  But he's such a gangly horse that I don't think we're going to get better without better muscle.  Which is coming, slowly, with his filling out.  Doing an intro with him is so that we can benchmark his improvements on a month to month basis. I'd rather know that all our efforts in our walk and trot are resulting in improvement.  If we ever reach the 70% marker, then I'll know that we're ready to beat the prelim.
		
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Single best post on this thread.

P


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## Under-the-radar (11 December 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			but my opinion remains that intro's do nothing to encourage people to up their game or raise their standards.
		
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Buuuutt - were similar comments not made about prelims when they were first introduced? Dumbing down the sport and all that - but now it is a perfectly acceptable step into competition.


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## JFTDWS (11 December 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			its only because they have the option NOT to canter that it becomes a big deal, you can bet money that if there were walk only tests introduced all of a sudden trot would become just as big a deal!
		
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I feel like I've just looked into the future, and I don't like what I see...


I certainly don't want to stagnate at lower levels.  If I'm going to get rubbish scores, I'd rather get them at a stupidly high level


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## Fuzzypuff (11 December 2014)

TBH I don't understand why anyone would have anything drastically against intro tests - if you don't like them then don't do them and encourage your friends/pupils to aim higher, but there's no need to be bothered by people unconnected to you doing them.

I don't see how they lower the standard of dressage. There are probably a proportion of people who would have done a prelim had there been no intro but I don't see why it matters - some will do intro for a bit and then move up to prelim, others may never move up from intro but then they were probably not the sort to progress past prelim anyway so why bother about whether they are doing intro or prelim.

For some, into will be a way in to dressage, the security blanket of not having to canter (which is likely to be psychological on their part however very real to them) might give them that push to have a go at dressage and over time this may then give them confidence to aim higher. I think not all of these people would necessarily jump in at prelim.

Some people just aren't competitive or don't particularly have a desire to progress. It's not something I really understand, and for me dressage is about progressing, but each to their own. The tests still bring some revenue for BD and for venues and are a gateway into the sport for a few too.

There are many reasons why someone might do an intro - perhaps they can't afford lessons and intro is more achievable for them, or they don't have their own transport so can't get their horse out for arena hire and so intro is the better option for them. Or maybe their horse finds canter really difficult but is pretty well balanced in walk and trot but they want to start getting it out into a competition atmosphere (which is quite different to an arena hire atmosphere IME). Who is anyone else to judge anyway?

The only thing that bothers me about the intro tests is the 1/2 10m circles in trot which are harder than the trot work in prelim tests. People assume intro tests are easier but for many they will be harder because of the trot work. I think for the benefit of the horses it would be better for the trot work to be on a par with prelim.


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## Casey76 (11 December 2014)

Also in France it's often that you would do two tests in one day, one lower than the other, and I don't see an issue with it.

The FFE tests start at a level halfway between prelim and novice, and even in the lower two of the tests (we only have two, a max three tests per level), you are expected to give and retake the inside rein in canter without a change in attitude or cadence of the horse.

My mare would probably do a lovely Intro test, as she is soft and supple in walk and trot (mostly), but her canter is a work in progress, and she still finds it difficult to canter on a 20m circle - she just isn't a naturally canter-y pony!  although it is starting to come together now, I'm looking at a good 6 months work before she will be ready to have a go at an FFE test, and I really wish I could do an easier w/t test in a competition environment just so that she can get used to that too (as she is very silly and spooky when things aren't "normal"

I do wonder if what puts people off from moving up the levels is the expectation of being able to work in a more advanced frame than is required, or that the horse/rider combo wants to be "perfect" before moving up.


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## Maesfen (11 December 2014)

Have hardly read any of the replies to OP but so many in the horse world like to be big fish in little ponds which is fair enough but there does come a time when it is only seen as pot hunting by others who are either in the audience or those who are striving for higher levels and quite sad that those don't have the courage of their convictions to move up a level which opens them up for ridicule too.
I was always told to compete against yourself, if you are happy with your performance as a whole then that's fine but always strive for the highest you can go; if that results in someone else thinking you deserve a placing then that's the icing on the cake.


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## Hurricanelady (11 December 2014)

lucemoose said:



			All this thread has taught me is to fear the menopause in terror as I will have to start doing intro tests?!
		
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## JoJo_ (11 December 2014)

As I said in my last reply, intro was dropped from our affiliated competitions due to no interest but it is a very popular level for the unaffiliated competition and I dont see a problem with it as a starting point. Our judges (mostly affiliated) are usually encouraging with their marks at that level so competitors do tend to move up to prelim in a reasonable timescale.

We have also had suggestions to run an unaffiliated dressage competition which we are calling 'Nervous Dressage' for those who want to compete but fear going in warmup arenas! We have had so much interest in this from people who's horses misbehave in warmups or from novice riders who are too nervous to be in a busy warmup. Am sure some people wont like the idea of this as a competition! Basically each competitor is allowed 30mins in the school so they warmup and then do their test without anyone else riding in the arena with them. First competition is on sunday and it is quite busy. Some people are using it as a bit of experience for youngsters before moving on to getting them used to warmups.


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## Walrus (11 December 2014)

I do think there is a place for intro, especially at UA. we went out and did about 3 when we were starting out. I didn't have transport so there were months between our competitions and our canter was diabolical for ages - no fault other than my own, once i got some lessons, a saddle that fitted, a bit that he was happy in and a clue then we were off and running. The 3rd time I took him out to some dressage I did the intro and prelim, decided to do the intro as a warm up and the prelim as a stretch - we won the intro comfortably and were about 5th in the prelim - it was the last intro we did, no need to do anymore after that.

However, i totally agree with the people saying if you get beat, work harder, improve and aim to get better. I have recently (about 3 years after that first intro) affiliated my lad - we went to area festivals at prelim, I came 4th in my section. I looked up the comp record of the person that won my section (like you do!), they had been competing at novice all season and even done a few elementarys, but they were inside the points limit before entries closed (2 days after entries closed they went over) - so they were within the rules. Was I annoyed, not really, I was pretty chuffed that we were anywhere near them at our 4th ever BD comp - and also kicking myself that if i had been more accurate on the centreline and the circle we might have beaten them - lesson learned!!


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## teapot (11 December 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			but my opinion remains that intro's do nothing to encourage people to up their game or raise their standards.
		
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That depends on the person I think. It was hammered into me in lessons years ago that if you can't get it right in walk and trot, you shouldn't try and won't get it right in canter so actually going out and doing an Intro (which I've watched friends do, only done prelim myself) and getting a judge's opinion is no bad thing IMHO. They're not doing any harm and if it funds the venues providing higher level tests, that again is only a good thing. Same goes for BE and the BE 80 sections. 

Also, and you'll say this is an separate issue but I think it's wrong to ignore the RDA/Para side of it.  I actually teach those aiming at the RDA Regionals and Nationals, where standards are incredibly high, and having Intro tests means riders can get arena experience before RDA comps. Throw in the fact that for the South East, our Regionals are held at Hickstead and the Nationals are at Hartpury across three days. The ONLY good way of getting riders used to those sorts of environments is to get them out 
at the SAME level. BD and RDA are actually working together to increase the number of RDA and pre officially graded para riders out at unaffil, let alone affiliated. I've met the guy in charge of this aim and one of the big issues that always comes up when riders are told they should enter their local dressage competition is 'but I don't want to canter and I'd rather not have the issue of explaining to a judge/being judged by others'. Intro tests remove that additional pressure.  Oh and no RDA tests are not easier than BD or RC ones at the equivalent level. There's one RDA walk only test I'd hate to ride tbh!


Just be nice if people looked at the bigger picture once in a while.


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## HotToTrot (11 December 2014)

JustFindingTheDecorations said:



			I feel like I've just looked into the future, and I don't like what I see...


I certainly don't want to stagnate at lower levels.  If I'm going to get rubbish scores, I'd rather get them at a stupidly high level 

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Oi!  Have you changed your name by HHO deed poll?  Is this so that you can ride incognito at Grand Prix, before returning to wipe the board at Walk & Trot?


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## JFTDWS (11 December 2014)

HotToTrot said:



			Oi!  Have you changed your name by HHO deed poll?  Is this so that you can ride incognito at Grand Prix, before returning to wipe the board at Walk & Trot?
		
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Yep.  That's exactly what I've done.  Now I just need to install tempi changes and I'll be ready to win all those pretty red rosettes at local intros 

No wait, the one time I tried to give myself a confidence-building run at prelim (after a long break) I got my worse score ever


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## Moomin1 (11 December 2014)

For me, having seen the standard that many unaff intros are at, I would not gain pleasure from being placed in them in all honesty.  I think a lot of them are extremely low standard, and that's fine if someone wishes to just have a bit of a day out with chips, a chat, and a laugh. But I wouldn't take any pride in a placing I had at that level.  I've seen some horrendous performances who have still managed to get in the 70% region, and it's all a bit of a mockery to be honest.  I don't see an issue however in actually doing them, if it is purely for getting the horse used to the environment, or for the rider's confidence, particularly for kids.  I just tend to think that if people want to compete, they should make a bit more of an effort to school their horse to the best of their ability first.


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## Maesfen (12 December 2014)

Moomince Pie said:



			But I wouldn't take any pride in a placing I had at that level.  I've seen some horrendous performances who have still managed to get in the 70% region, and it's all a bit of a mockery to be honest.
		
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The marking perplexes me (doesn't take much!) but how can they give such big scores to mediocre tests?  There's being encouraging and there's bending over backwards to give a nice score when in many cases, it's not deserved.  How has it become the norm' to get high 60's for a bad test?  Is it just the follow on from big marks at Grand Prix level filtering down to the lower levels or just the fact that everyone has to be seen to have done well even if they don't deserve it?  Can't people be told they rode like cr$p and have the mark they actually deserved any longer or is it all too PC now?


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## ihatework (12 December 2014)

Maesfen said:



			The marking perplexes me (doesn't take much!) but how can they give such big scores to mediocre tests?  There's being encouraging and there's bending over backwards to give a nice score when in many cases, it's not deserved.  How has it become the norm' to get high 60's for a bad test?  Is it just the follow on from big marks at Grand Prix level filtering down to the lower levels or just the fact that everyone has to be seen to have done well even if they don't deserve it?  Can't people be told they rode like cr$p and have the mark they actually deserved any longer or is it all too PC now?
		
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Generally standards are getting better.
70% means that on average the test was 'fairly good' for the expectations of the level

That said, I do agree that some judges have moved a little to much towards generosity, which then inflates the riders perception of how good a test is. Mostly at unaff, but I have seen it aff too.


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## cptrayes (12 December 2014)

Moomince Pie said:



			I just tend to think that if people want to compete, they should make a bit more of an effort to school their horse to the best of their ability first.
		
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Maybe they have?


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## cptrayes (12 December 2014)

Maesfen said:



			The marking perplexes me (doesn't take much!) but how can they give such big scores to mediocre tests?  There's being encouraging and there's bending over backwards to give a nice score when in many cases, it's not deserved.  How has it become the norm' to get high 60's for a bad test?  Is it just the follow on from big marks at Grand Prix level filtering down to the lower levels or just the fact that everyone has to be seen to have done well even if they don't deserve it?  Can't people be told they rode like cr$p and have the mark they actually deserved any longer or is it all too PC now?
		
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It must depend on the region/centre I think. The test I put up above got 61 per cent, which I thought was nicely encouraging without being stupidly unrealistic.


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## cptrayes (12 December 2014)

Talking of marking, I saw a slow motion breakdown of piaffe that Totilas did on his last win, and it did not even meet the written rules to judge the movement. In other words, he never did it, he only did what they call half steps. Yet he scored nines for it.

Now that is bad scoring that really matters.


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## eahotson (12 December 2014)

Now now cptrayes you are at it again.Repeat after me.Only people who ride in intros ride badly!! See easy really.We won't mention the people who all send their horses for a months intensive schooling by a pro for some at least, of their comps.


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## cptrayes (12 December 2014)

eahotson said:



			Now now cptrayes you are at it again.Repeat after me.Only people who ride in intros ride badly!! See easy really.We won't mention the people who all send their horses for a months intensive schooling by a pro for some at least, of their comps.
		
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I'm so sorry Shelley    I also need to  apologise as you pointed out earlier on, for having too much fun. Heavens, I was even smiling in that test, when will I learn!


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## FellOutOfFavour (12 December 2014)

It seems to me that far too many people are way too bothered about what other people do, or what they think. Everyone has their reasons for competing at the level that they do, and as the old saying goes "Never judge another person until you have walked a mile in their shoes".

I am currently competing at intro with my horse. We can't canter well enough to canter in public, this doesn't mean he'll be a danger to anyone in the warm up and he certainly won't be careering round out of control causing other competitors to flee for their lives while screaming in terror, it just means canter transitions happen at random times and rarely on any specific lead. As an older horse who has had absolutely no schooling in the past and who is bred to trot then his canter will take some time to put right. This doesn't bother or worry me, it is just how it is. I have chosen to take him out at intro rather than waiting until we are ready to compete at prelim because I'd like us both to get some experience in the ring, I have competed before but he hasn't. From a psychological point of view getting this experience now is necessary for me because I struggle with nerves, particularly following a nasty fall 18 months ago. If I leave it too long to go out I'll constantly find excuses, so it is better that I just bite the bullet and get out there. We have done three tests so far, we have won one and been last in one, but I genuinely don't care about placings as I am just putting in place the foundations that will mean we can go and have fun at prelim once we have the canter cracked. Then once we have prelim cracked I'll attempt to install the medium trot and medium canter buttons and try for novice.....


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## eahotson (12 December 2014)

cptrayes said:



			I'm so sorry Shelley    I also need to  apologise as you pointed out earlier on, for having too much fun. Heavens, I was even smiling in that test, when will I learn!
		
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LOL


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## eahotson (12 December 2014)

CobsCanDo said:



			It seems to me that far too many people are way too bothered about what other people do, or what they think. Everyone has their reasons for competing at the level that they do, and as the old saying goes "Never judge another person until you have walked a mile in their shoes".

I am currently competing at intro with my horse. We can't canter well enough to canter in public, this doesn't mean he'll be a danger to anyone in the warm up and he certainly won't be careering round out of control causing other competitors to flee for their lives while screaming in terror, it just means canter transitions happen at random times and rarely on any specific lead. As an older horse who has had absolutely no schooling in the past and who is bred to trot then his canter will take some time to put right. This doesn't bother or worry me, it is just how it is. I have chosen to take him out at intro rather than waiting until we are ready to compete at prelim because I'd like us both to get some experience in the ring, I have competed before but he hasn't. From a psychological point of view getting this experience now is necessary for me because I struggle with nerves, particularly following a nasty fall 18 months ago. If I leave it too long to go out I'll constantly find excuses, so it is better that I just bite the bullet and get out there. We have done three tests so far, we have won one and been last in one, but I genuinely don't care about placings as I am just putting in place the foundations that will mean we can go and have fun at prelim once we have the canter cracked. Then once we have prelim cracked I'll attempt to install the medium trot and medium canter buttons and try for novice.....
		
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I have been where you are.Wrong horse for too long.Nerve shattered at every level.Enter  the then newbie. A total saint but no schooling worth mentioning and coupled with my shattered nerve.We went to an INTRO. I just wanted to get round in one piece.Horse trundled round heaving an occasional sigh and saying 'Get a grip woman'.Doing it all was a great achievement as far as I was concerned and the rosette (a 6th) in 9 places was the icing on the cake.We did that when I had owned newbie for about 3 months.In 3 years with the other one I never got near an intro.


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## PaddyMonty (12 December 2014)

I think a lot of people seem to have forgotten the purpose of a competition. It's sole role is to find out who is the best at that time. Nothing more nothing less. This of course has nothing to do with why people choose to enter a competition. There are probably as many reasons as there are fish in the sea. However, no persons personal reason for entering changes the purpose of the competition.
There can only be one winner in a comp. If you don't win you can do one of several things. 
1) you could whinge about how unfair it all was. (this seems to be more common these days). 
2) you can go home and hope you have better luck next time and the competitors are of a lower standard (getting to more of a common response) 
3) you could analyse why you didn't win, identify improvements then work your butt off to make those improvements happen. (least common approach).
What might surprise some people is those that adopt approach 3 tend to win a lot and then get classed as pot hunters. oh and just for the record, schooling for 30 minutes twice a week when the weather is nice does not constitute approach 3.
Above all else people need to accept that no matter how good you are, you will always run the risk of coming up against someone better. This is the nature of competition. In any sport that has multiple levels there will always be a mix of those that are just starting that level, those that are established and those who are ready to move up. Unsurprisingly, the last group are the ones that tend to win (and get classed as pot hunters). If you are just starting at a level it should not come as a surprise if there are people better than you and you don't win.
Peoples perception of fairness is generally very self centred. For instance.....
There is a local unaff dressage venue near to me. The same person pretty much always wins the into and prelim classes. I'm sure most of the other competitors believe that this person is wrong to compete in these but I'm sure the individual thinks its fine. Now one day I ended up competing in the prelim class on the horse that I had just finished BD regionals gaining a top ten place (same level). No surprise we won both prelims beating the afore mentioned person by 7%. I'm sure they felt I was totally wrong to compete said horse that day, just as the rest of the competitors felt most weeks. Fact is, the rules allowed me to do so and on that day the normal winner came up against a combination that were simply better.
That's competition for you.


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## ester (12 December 2014)

PaddyMonty said:



			I think a lot of people seem to have forgotten the purpose of a competition.
		
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Are you suggesting it isn't cheesy chips??


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## PaddyMonty (12 December 2014)

ester said:



			Are you suggesting it isn't cheesy chips??
		
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I can remember the days when we had to win to be able to afford some cheesy chips. Now that was an incentive to train.


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## ester (12 December 2014)

PaddyMonty said:



			I can remember the days when we had to win to be able to afford some cheesy chips. Now that was an incentive to train.
		
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That was in the days you used to win money to buy stuff!!?


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## NinjaPony (12 December 2014)

I think intros have their place to introduce novice/nervous combinations to a competition environment, especially children. I don't compete intro because my pony schools at novice/elementary but I took my last pony to an intro and it was very low key which was perfect for her. I had had to retrain her almost completely with a lot of help and her walk and trot was very good but her canter was rushed and unbalanced. I wanted to get her out (only unaffiliated) because I wanted her to get some life experience but I didn't want to knock our confidence so an intro was really good because I knew we could do it easily and it meant I didn't have to put any pressure on her or myself. So I think that they are a useful stepping stone when competing- but they should be that, a step to the next level of competition. If I had a horse secure in canter then I probably wouldn't bother tbh. And I think it's important to understand that having  a horse not entirely secure in canter doesn't mean that said horse is out of control/not ready for competitions- it just means that the training is ongoing and the rider or horse might want a low pressure outing. But having said that, I think they should really be reserved for that purpose.


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## ihatework (12 December 2014)

paddymonty said:



			i think a lot of people seem to have forgotten the purpose of a competition. It's sole role is to find out who is the best at that time. Nothing more nothing less. This of course has nothing to do with why people choose to enter a competition. There are probably as many reasons as there are fish in the sea. However, no persons personal reason for entering changes the purpose of the competition.
There can only be one winner in a comp. If you don't win you can do one of several things. 
1) you could whinge about how unfair it all was. (this seems to be more common these days). 
2) you can go home and hope you have better luck next time and the competitors are of a lower standard (getting to more of a common response) 
3) you could analyse why you didn't win, identify improvements then work your butt off to make those improvements happen. (least common approach).
What might surprise some people is those that adopt approach 3 tend to win a lot and then get classed as pot hunters. Oh and just for the record, schooling for 30 minutes twice a week when the weather is nice does not constitute approach 3.
Above all else people need to accept that no matter how good you are, you will always run the risk of coming up against someone better. This is the nature of competition. In any sport that has multiple levels there will always be a mix of those that are just starting that level, those that are established and those who are ready to move up. Unsurprisingly, the last group are the ones that tend to win (and get classed as pot hunters). If you are just starting at a level it should not come as a surprise if there are people better than you and you don't win.
Peoples perception of fairness is generally very self centred. .
		
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spot on


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## Tiddlypom (12 December 2014)

ihatework said:



			spot on
		
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^^^This. 

As I posted earlier, I'm just an average rider who works hard. It took just three years from my teenage cob and his happy hacker rider entering our first ever RC prelim in 1984, getting 50% and 5th out of 10 (which I was chuffed to bits with!), to placing just below Stephen Clarke in our first affiliated elementary.

There was a huge lot of blood, sweat and tears in between, which made it all the sweeter.

If I considered I was not ready to compete at any point, I dropped the competitions and concentrated on the training until we were back on track. Of course sometimes we went out and performed poorly, but it would not be from lack of preparation, just that things went wrong on the day. However, the more correct training you do, the fewer poor days you will get.

I look at the videos that people post of their UA tests, and wonder how on earth they get the marks awarded. IMHO it only encourages mediocrity.


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## khalswitz (12 December 2014)

Tiddlypom said:



			^^^This. 

As I posted earlier, I'm just an average rider who works hard. It took just three years from my teenage cob and his happy hacker rider entering our first ever RC prelim in 1984, getting 50% and 5th out of 10 (which I was chuffed to bits with!), to placing just below Stephen Clarke in our first affiliated elementary.

There was a huge lot of blood, sweat and tears in between, which made it all the sweeter.

If I considered I was not ready to compete at any point, I dropped the competitions and concentrated on the training until we were back on track. Of course sometimes we went out and performed poorly, but it would not be from lack of preparation, just that things went wrong on the day. However, the more correct training you do, the fewer poor days you will get.

I look at the videos that people post of their UA tests, and wonder how on earth they get the marks awarded. IMHO it only encourages mediocrity.
		
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PM and TP I agree SO hard!

My boss once said to me that there is no point even going to a clinic until you have your basics mastered, or you end up paying £40 to be told to keep your heels down. 

And that's just clinics! Competing when you aren't ready and the training isn't there is a waste of time and money. Your horse will get 'competition experience' just as quickly once he is actually ready, and you will have a better trained horse underneath you too which will make it much easier!

Now we've gotten into BD, I'd be much less likely to go out and compete before the horse is ready, as it does leave a record.


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## Palindrome (12 December 2014)

PaddyMonty said:



			I think a lot of people seem to have forgotten the purpose of a competition. It's sole role is to find out who is the best at that time. Nothing more nothing less. This of course has nothing to do with why people choose to enter a competition. There are probably as many reasons as there are fish in the sea. However, no persons personal reason for entering changes the purpose of the competition.
There can only be one winner in a comp. If you don't win you can do one of several things. 
1) you could whinge about how unfair it all was. (this seems to be more common these days). 
2) you can go home and hope you have better luck next time and the competitors are of a lower standard (getting to more of a common response) 
3) you could analyse why you didn't win, identify improvements then work your butt off to make those improvements happen. (least common approach).
What might surprise some people is those that adopt approach 3 tend to win a lot and then get classed as pot hunters. oh and just for the record, schooling for 30 minutes twice a week when the weather is nice does not constitute approach 3.
Above all else people need to accept that no matter how good you are, you will always run the risk of coming up against someone better. This is the nature of competition. In any sport that has multiple levels there will always be a mix of those that are just starting that level, those that are established and those who are ready to move up. Unsurprisingly, the last group are the ones that tend to win (and get classed as pot hunters). If you are just starting at a level it should not come as a surprise if there are people better than you and you don't win.
Peoples perception of fairness is generally very self centred. For instance.....
There is a local unaff dressage venue near to me. The same person pretty much always wins the into and prelim classes. I'm sure most of the other competitors believe that this person is wrong to compete in these but I'm sure the individual thinks its fine. Now one day I ended up competing in the prelim class on the horse that I had just finished BD regionals gaining a top ten place (same level). No surprise we won both prelims beating the afore mentioned person by 7%. I'm sure they felt I was totally wrong to compete said horse that day, just as the rest of the competitors felt most weeks. Fact is, the rules allowed me to do so and on that day the normal winner came up against a combination that were simply better.
That's competition for you.
		
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That is not true in fact, in dressage there is the competition but there is also the test sheet with written feedback from the judge and detailed notes. Some people go to win against others, some want to improve their last score, etc... Whatever floats your boat really.
Personally I don't see the point in entering over and over at a level you are winning at, particularly a level that is for beginner dressage riders as there is no prestige in winning. But then I am not of the "blood, sweat and tear" philosophy either, I just enjoy schooling and have my horse moving correctly off a light aid. In fact, as she gets better and stronger she gets near effortless to ride, as long as you seat straight you just need to wiggle a bit your bum/breath, etc...


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## PaddyMonty (12 December 2014)

Palindrome said:



			That is not true in fact, in dressage there is the competition but there is also the test sheet with written feedback from the judge and detailed notes. Some people go to win against others, some want to improve their last score, etc... Whatever floats your boat really.
		
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I think you've just proved my point. Dressage comp is not the place to gain valuable feedback as the 'notes' are far from detailed. Half an hour training with a listed judge would be far more value for money if you just want to improve. Like I said, the purpose of a competition seems to be getting lost on some folk.


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## Palindrome (12 December 2014)

PaddyMonty said:



			I think you've just proved my point. Dressage comp is not the place to gain valuable feedback as the 'notes' are far from detailed. Half an hour training with a listed judge would be far more value for money if you just want to improve. Like I said, the purpose of a competition seems to be getting lost on some folk.
		
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The 2 are very different as my horse doesn't behave at all the same at home or in a familiar environment for a lesson and me neither. To me both kinds of feedback are valuable.


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## ihatework (12 December 2014)

khalswitz said:



			PM and TP I agree SO hard!

My boss once said to me that there is no point even going to a clinic until you have your basics mastered, or you end up paying £40 to be told to keep your heels down. 

And that's just clinics! Competing when you aren't ready and the training isn't there is a waste of time and money. Your horse will get 'competition experience' just as quickly once he is actually ready, and you will have a better trained horse underneath you too which will make it much easier!

Now we've gotten into BD, I'd be much less likely to go out and compete before the horse is ready, as it does leave a record.
		
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I disagree with that to a certain extent.

I'm all for homework, don't get me wrong, but at the end of the day the competition environment is different to home environment.

At some point you have to accept you need to push yourself and step out of your comfort zone. So I'm actually pro getting out and having a go. Yes you might spend money and not have a prize to show for it, but the money isn't necessarily wasted - more invested in a learning experience. Which goes back to PaddyMonty comment regarding the reasons why people compete being vast.

PS - normally the only person that cares about a BD record is yourself. It doesn't generally register on anyone else's interest levels unless you want to sell the horse for lots of money!


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## eahotson (12 December 2014)

lol



ester said:



			Are you suggesting it isn't cheesy chips??
		
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## eggs (12 December 2014)

I think part of the problem is that at unaffiliated level even if there are rules about which class you can/cannot enter they are very hard to enforce whilst if you are competing BD there is an official record of your results and sanctions available if you enter a class for which you are ineligible.

There will always be some people who go out pot-hunting and the majority who don't pot hunt.  It doesn't matter if you enter an Intro test and feel that the person who won is more than capable of winning at Prelim or whether you enter an Elementary test and feel the winner could win at Medium - that's life so suck it up.  Either compete because you want to have a day out go our pot hunting and stick at a low level forever because you want a cupboard full of red rosettes.

For what it is worth I much prefer to have a good ride and not get such a high placing than have a good placing when I feel the horse hasn't gone so well.


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## JFTDWS (12 December 2014)

ihatework said:



			I disagree with that to a certain extent.

I'm all for homework, don't get me wrong, but at the end of the day the competition environment is different to home environment.

At some point you have to accept you need to push yourself and step out of your comfort zone. So I'm actually pro getting out and having a go. Yes you might spend money and not have a prize to show for it, but the money isn't necessarily wasted - more invested in a learning experience. Which goes back to PaddyMonty comment regarding the reasons why people compete being vast.

PS - normally the only person that cares about a BD record is yourself. It doesn't generally register on anyone else's interest levels unless you want to sell the horse for lots of money!
		
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Yea - Fergus works well (relative to his highland-ness) at home and in training.  Both my instructors are less than impressed with the scores I report back because we suffer from performance pressure in the test and everything goes decidedly mediocre (and some judges apparently find this horrifying :cool3: ). Similarly I took Dae to do a prelim and he only performed half the canter work - he can do it fine and dandy at home but I don't have boards and other horses doing tests alongside at home - it was a bit much for him to handle! By attempting a prelim though, he learned a valuable lesson he would have missed if we'd done an intro.    

There's no way around that other than by going out and competing and accepting that our scores will be mediocre and we'll probably be loitering around the bottom of the pile.  But that doesn't mean I think the "better" candidates shouldn't be allowed to compete in my class, or that they're pot hunting.  We're out dealing with an issue.  They're out winning.  Fine.  I might whine about the score, or the comments I get (because I have had some odd ones!), but I don't whine about not winning!  It's also a big part of competing that while you're out to decide who's best, by definition you need to have other people there for that one person to be better than!

And I'm more than happy for people to sneer at our record.  It's rubbish!  It's no reflection on Fergus though.


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## eahotson (12 December 2014)

I think most people just want a levelish playing field and then its down to who is best.If you are beaten fairly fine.Knew a brat a few years ago who took her JA pony to the little local show where the kids went on their very ordinary ponies and competed maybe twice a year.She was out every weekend.She cleaned up.What a surprise.Even her trainer was ashamed.


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## Tiddlypom (12 December 2014)

Palindrome said:



			But then I am not of the "blood, sweat and tear" philosophy either, I just enjoy schooling and have my horse moving correctly off a light aid. In fact, as she gets better and stronger she gets near effortless to ride, as long as you seat straight you just need to wiggle a bit your bum/breath, etc...
		
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Oh yes, the lightness of response to the aids is the aim, and what we (mostly) ended up with. We just had a lot of prat falls en route to achieving that, with me usually working much harder than the horse in the early days.


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## Dusty85 (12 December 2014)

When I go out and enter dressage classes the only person I am really competing against is myself. 

I know if I am improving or not therefore whilst winning rosettes is nice, it's not the be all and end all. 

Suck it up, use it as determination to get better and start moving up the levels yourself.


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## cptrayes (12 December 2014)

khalswitz said:



			PM and TP I agree SO hard!
 Competing when you aren't ready and the training isn't there is a waste of time and money.
		
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That may be your opinion.

Personally, I have a nice day out with my OH, the horse gains in confidence from seeing the big wide world, and the lorry decokes itself. Twelve quid well spent, I'd say  

I also, of course, agree with everyone who says that there is simply no way you can replicate the pressure of competing in front of a judge without doing it.


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## khalswitz (12 December 2014)

ihatework said:



			I disagree with that to a certain extent.

I'm all for homework, don't get me wrong, but at the end of the day the competition environment is different to home environment.

At some point you have to accept you need to push yourself and step out of your comfort zone. So I'm actually pro getting out and having a go. Yes you might spend money and not have a prize to show for it, but the money isn't necessarily wasted - more invested in a learning experience. Which goes back to PaddyMonty comment regarding the reasons why people compete being vast.

PS - normally the only person that cares about a BD record is yourself. It doesn't generally register on anyone else's interest levels unless you want to sell the horse for lots of money!
		
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Yes, the competition environment is different. But what benefit is there from taking out a young, green horse out before it can canter? It will gain it's experience whatever level you start it at (many pros don't go out below elementary!) so what is the benefit of doing it at Intro, rather than improving the horse to Prelim level and starting there? Rider issues aside (as I feel nervous riders is a different issue to young horses), what is the benefit of exposing the horse to that environment when he is less trained than more? A horse more confident in his job and his way of going is generally much easier to handle in new situations. Why the rush to compete him when he barely know a his job? (And a horse who can't canter yet doesn't really know his job...)

Regarding the BD record - probably very few other people care if they aren't buying my horse. However, it is a permanent record of the scores that many people would like to forget... And it will record all those test scores from before the horse was really ready.


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## ihatework (12 December 2014)

khalswitz said:



			Yes, the competition environment is different. But what benefit is there from taking out a young, green horse out before it can canter? It will gain it's experience whatever level you start it at (many pros don't go out below elementary!) so what is the benefit of doing it at Intro, rather than improving the horse to Prelim level and starting there? Rider issues aside (as I feel nervous riders is a different issue to young horses), what is the benefit of exposing the horse to that environment when he is less trained than more? A horse more confident in his job and his way of going is generally much easier to handle in new situations. Why the rush to compete him when he barely know a his job? (And a horse who can't canter yet doesn't really know his job...)

Regarding the BD record - probably very few other people care if they aren't buying my horse. However, it is a permanent record of the scores that many people would like to forget... And it will record all those test scores from before the horse was really ready.
		
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Your first post was very generic and could be applied across levels/scenarios. Your latter you state a green horse that cannot canter.

I take my horses straight out affiliated now. Wouldn't bother with intro (or even prelim to some extent) unless it was a cobby/RC sell on type.

That said, I don't put 'my situation' into this post. I completely get the intro market and the variety of reasons behind why people choose to do them. These people are the bread and butter of the industry and we need to support it. No need to be snobby or elitist about it, but accept that different people want different things from their horses and they are critical to keeping the cogs turning for people with bigger aspirations.


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## cptrayes (12 December 2014)

khalswitz said:



			Yes, the competition environment is different. But what benefits is there from taking out a young, green horse out before it can canter? It will gain it's experience whatever level you start it at (many pros don't go out below elementary!) so what is the benefit of doing it at Intro, rather than improving the horse to Prelim level and starting there? Rider issues aside (as I feel nervous riders is a different issue to young horses), what is the benefit of exposing the horse to that environment when he is less trained than more? A horse more confident in his job and his way of going is generally much easier to handle in new situations. Why the rush to compete him when he barely know a his job? (And a horse who can't canter yet doesn't really know his job...)

Regarding the BD record - probably very few other people care if they aren't buying my horse. However, it is a permanent record of the scores that many people would like to forget... And it will record all those test scores from before the horse was really ready.
		
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I really don't understand why anyone pays to compete affiliated on a horse that isn't ready to win points. But as for taking a horse who can't canter yet to do an unaffiliated Intro, I can only, at the risk of being told again that this thread isn't about me, tell you why I do/did it.

Because it gave me a date to fix on and a place to go where I knew I could expose him gently to working with others in an arena without having to organise friends to help me. When you keep the horse at home on your own, getting this experience any other way can be a problem.

Because I find that getting young horses out to see that the world is bigger than they think it is can be a very valuable training exercise.

Because any horse can cop a wobbler in their early tests at stuff like a judge in a car or a hut, and why not get that out of the way before you canter?

Because if the walk and trot are solid enough and you'd both enjoy the outing, why not?


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## MagicMelon (12 December 2014)

khalswitz said:



			Competing when you aren't ready and the training isn't there is a waste of time and money. Your horse will get 'competition experience' just as quickly once he is actually ready, and you will have a better trained horse underneath you too which will make it much easier!.
		
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You have to remember that not everyone has loads of money kicking about for both training AND competing. I love competing, its why I have horses. I cannot afford to train much as well as compete so I just try to do my best on my own with the occasional lesson. You also have to remember not everyone has an arena or access to decent show jumps etc. So it can be worth the money simply to be able to have access to a nicely built SJ course and arena to ride in! I take my green horse out to compete at low levels now, I take the opportunity to compete and also have a bit of a training session on my own using the warm-up - its gives her loads of experience and lets me have a decent schooling session when at home all I can do right now is plod about the farmers stubble fields! 

I see now issue with using the level previous as a "warm up". If eligible then why not?


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## DressageCob (12 December 2014)

I don't see the harm in doing a warm up class. It only strengthens the competition and makes you all the more proud when you beat those competitors who are also in the following class. 

Doing a warm up one class below like intro for prelim or prelim for novice is ok...doing an intro before a novice is more likely to be pot hunting! 

Personally, once I was getting over 60% unaffiliated prelim I stopped doing the intro, if they were running two prelims. I'll admit though, my horse and I were frequently beating other competitors. We didn't always win but we did always place. But I worked blooming hard to get to that point, so there's no reason why we shouldn't have beaten the other competitors. We were all the combination doing their first test once; unless there's a class exclusively for people doing their first test ever it will never be a completely even class!

 Now I do affiliated and am on the border between prelim and novice. So I typically do one prelim and one novice. Just because I also do the next class doesn't mean I should give up the prelims yet! We are still in the points to be able to do prelim so unless and until my horse starts getting 70%+ or in the top 6 every time at the novice or is doing well in the novice at regionals, I will keep doing a prelim class. I don't see why I shouldn't  Plus it serves as a good warm up for the novice class, to sort out any spooking or arena issues. That doesn't make me a pot hunter


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## khalswitz (12 December 2014)

ihatework said:



			Your first post was very generic and could be applied across levels/scenarios. Your latter you state a green horse that cannot canter.

I take my horses straight out affiliated now. Wouldn't bother with intro (or even prelim to some extent) unless it was a cobby/RC sell on type.

That said, I don't put 'my situation' into this post. I completely get the intro market and the variety of reasons behind why people choose to do them. These people are the bread and butter of the industry and we need to support it. No need to be snobby or elitist about it, but accept that different people want different things from their horses and they are critical to keeping the cogs turning for people with bigger aspirations.
		
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I do believe it applies across scenarios (tbh I do think that if competing is as nerve wracking an experience as it seems to be for many of the slightly older ladies who full up the Intro classes around here, then maybe they just shouldn't do it... Surely that isn't fun! ) - however I referred specifically to a green horse in that post because young green horses were referred to several times, especially in terms of giving them competition experience, and as nobody here was in the nervous rider scenario I moved the conversation on to respond to the points being made. I don't think you need Intro level to give a young horse experience! That is my point. As the judging and way of going etc is te same as at prelim (and in fact tougher trot work!) then really the only difference is the canter... So, I do query why it is such a big issue that it requires a whole seperate class, rather than encouraging people to train their horses. 

I do agree with PS that it is dumbing down. Doesn't do the horse any harm to get his competition experience later on once he's ready to actually perform - in the meantime, group clinics etc would also expand his horizons and also be far more productive. (Unless obv you are selling him, but with only a few intros under his belt you'd have more explaining to do than if he had none IMO...)

Intro certainly does not fund the sport. In my area, there isn't a single affiliated Intro class, and even our RC only has a handful of entries in that one class compared to three classes of more than double the size at prelim, and two classes similarly sized at novice - so they certainly aren't funding our dressage here, it's the prelim and novice who do.


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## cptrayes (12 December 2014)

khalswitz said:



			I do believe it applies across scenarios (tbh I do think that if competing is as nerve wracking an experience as it seems to be for many of the slightly older ladies who full up the Intro classes around here, then maybe they just shouldn't do it... Surely that isn't fun! ) - however I referred specifically to a green horse in that post because young green horses were referred to several times, especially in terms of giving them competition experience, and as nobody here was in the nervous rider scenario I moved the conversation on to respond to the points being made. I don't think you need Intro level to give a young horse experience! That is my point. As the judging and way of going etc is te same as at prelim (and in fact tougher trot work!) then really the only difference is the canter... So, I do query why it is such a big issue that it requires a whole seperate class, rather than encouraging people to train their horses. T

I do agree with PS that it is dumbing down. Doesn't do the horse any harm to get his competition experience later on once he's ready to actually perform - in the meantime, group clinics etc would also expand his horizons and also be far more productive. (Unless obv you are selling him, but with only a few intros under his belt you'd have more explaining to do than if he had none IMO...)

Intro certainly does not fund the sport. In my area, there isn't a single affiliated Intro class, and even our RC only has a handful of entries in that one class compared to three classes of more than double the size at prelim, and two classes similarly sized at novice - so they certainly aren't funding our dressage here, it's the prelim and novice who do.
		
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K you need a competition venue to compete at, and it's the lower level people keeping the competition venues in the black. Without them, you'd have no venue to go to.

You also seem to be failing to listen to the people like me who are telling you why they have a horse who isn't ready to canter in public but for reasons of our own want to go to competitions.


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## khalswitz (12 December 2014)

MagicMelon said:



			You have to remember that not everyone has loads of money kicking about for both training AND competing. I love competing, its why I have horses. I cannot afford to train much as well as compete so I just try to do my best on my own with the occasional lesson. You also have to remember not everyone has an arena or access to decent show jumps etc. So it can be worth the money simply to be able to have access to a nicely built SJ course and arena to ride in! I take my green horse out to compete at low levels now, I take the opportunity to compete and also have a bit of a training session on my own using the warm-up - its gives her loads of experience and lets me have a decent schooling session when at home all I can do right now is plod about the farmers stubble fields! 

I see now issue with using the level previous as a "warm up". If eligible then why not?
		
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I absolutely get that - I don't have the money for both. I spend my winter time and money on training, then compete through the summer - with occasional breaks from competing to find the training when things aren't where I want them. But the training is the key part! Geoff has been scoring pretty well at novice, but with similar comments coming back again and again, we've taken a breather to train over the winter (flat and over XC fences tbh) so we can actually aim a bit higher next season, both in %s and in jump height! Keeping going when there is a gap in the training won't fix the problem, so the money is better spent on the training then.

I understand access to courses, we don't have a set of SJ fences or an indoor school or boards or things, and getting out to some unaff can be great for that, but equally if the training isn't there, why are you bothering? If you can only jump x poles because your horse can't canter, it would make more sense to book a lesson over the fences the day after and get something out of it surely than just trot round, unless you are at a level where you can school your horse through that, in which case why are you taking it out over x poles anyway... See my train of thought?


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## ihatework (12 December 2014)

khalswitz said:



			I do believe it applies across scenarios (tbh I do think that if competing is as nerve wracking an experience as it seems to be for many of the slightly older ladies who full up the Intro classes around here, then maybe they just shouldn't do it... Surely that isn't fun! ) - however I referred specifically to a green horse in that post because young green horses were referred to several times, especially in terms of giving them competition experience, and as nobody here was in the nervous rider scenario I moved the conversation on to respond to the points being made. I don't think you need Intro level to give a young horse experience! That is my point. As the judging and way of going etc is te same as at prelim (and in fact tougher trot work!) then really the only difference is the canter... So, I do query why it is such a big issue that it requires a whole seperate class, rather than encouraging people to train their horses. 

I do agree with PS that it is dumbing down. Doesn't do the horse any harm to get his competition experience later on once he's ready to actually perform - in the meantime, group clinics etc would also expand his horizons and also be far more productive. (Unless obv you are selling him, but with only a few intros under his belt you'd have more explaining to do than if he had none IMO...)

Intro certainly does not fund the sport. In my area, there isn't a single affiliated Intro class, and even our RC only has a handful of entries in that one class compared to three classes of more than double the size at prelim, and two classes similarly sized at novice - so they certainly aren't funding our dressage here, it's the prelim and novice who do.
		
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What about people who go out and jump 65/75cm courses? Can the same be said about them too? Should get it right at home before going out?


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## khalswitz (12 December 2014)

cptrayes said:



			K you need a competition venue to compete at, and it's the lower level people keeping the competition venues in the black. Without them, you'd have no venue to go to.

You also seem to be failing to listen to the people like me who are telling you why they have a horse who isn't ready to canter in public but for reasons of our own want to go to competitions.
		
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Lower level, as in up to Novice? Sure. But it's certainly not Intro. 

And I know for a fact that our local training venue makes more off training than it does competitions. So the wobbly combos at Intro who Hvent put the training in really are not funding everyone else... Dressage is not like Grassroots BE either where the cost of course maintainance is covered by grassroots - higher level classes cost more to enter, which helps with  average profits, and there otherwise isn't a real difference in cost to run... For sheer numbers, it fills a day, but when our local centre can run multiple days of Medium and up only a month with the same number of prelim-elem, it does highlight that the difference is not so great as seen in BE at all.

 CPT, and please don't take offence if I word this badly (and hence why I was avoiding saying it tbh!) but, tbh, all I can really see that you gain from doing as you do rather than as I suggested is a jolly day out. Getting some ring experience doesn't hurt the horse, but equally waiting until he is far enough in his training (ie, not that far really!) to canter before doing so would hardly limit his education. And as far as a jolly day out goes, I am genuinely glad you do enjoy it and are happy doing that. However, when it encourages people whose horses aren't under enough control to be in a warm up ring, and starts people moaning about pot hunters and needing the level more restricted (how much more restricted can you get!!) is it not a lot of hassle for a jolly day out, when certainly IME most of the people in the class would enter the prelim instead if there was no intro, and then actually have to have some semblance of basic training in place before they go out?

As part of an RC committee who deals with grassroots riders all of the time, the majority do intro once or twice before realising prelim is essentially the same and move up. The classes are quiet, and the league is always won by the one combination who do stick out the whole season at that level. So I don't really see why we actually need the extra hassle of a whole extra level when all it really does is dumb down what is being asked for, and muddy the waters further about putting the basics in place promptly before trying to progress. What marks well at intro, and prelim, may start to drop marks noticeably at novice and up because the basics are right. Having fewer low levels means people do actually need to get the training to make sure the foundations are promptly in place before they start, and the get a shock later too.


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## cptrayes (12 December 2014)

khalswitz said:



			Lower level, as in up to Novice? Sure. But it's certainly not Intro. 

And I know for a fact that our local training venue makes more off training than it does competitions. So the wobbly combos at Intro who Hvent put the training in really are not funding everyone else... Dressage is not like Grassroots BE either where the cost of course maintainance is covered by grassroots - higher level classes cost more to enter, which helps with  average profits, and there otherwise isn't a real difference in cost to run... For sheer numbers, it fills a day, but when our local centre can run multiple days of Medium and up only a month with the same number of prelim-elem, it does highlight that the difference is not so great as seen in BE at all.F2f

 CPT, and please don't take offence if I word this badly (and hence why I was avoiding saying it tbh!) but, tbh, all I can really see that you gain from doing as you do rather than as I suggested is a jolly day out. Getting some ring experience doesn't hurt the horse, but equally waiting until he is far enough in his training (ie, not that far really!) to canter before doing so would hardly limit his education. And as far as a jolly day out goes, I am genuinely glad you do enjoy it and are happy doing that. However, when it encourages people whose horses aren't under enough control to be in a warm up ring, and starts people moaning about pot hunters and needing the level more restricted (how much more restricted can you get!!) is it not a lot of hassle for a jolly day out, when certainly IME most of the people in the class would enter the prelim instead if there was no intro, and then actually have to have some semblance of basic training in place before they go out?

As part of an RC committee who deals with grassroots riders all of the time, the majority do intro once or twice before realising prelim is essentially the same and move up. The classes are quiet, and the league is always won by the one combination who do stick out the whole season at that level. So I don't really see why we actually need the extra hassle of a whole extra level when all it really does is dumb down what is being asked for, and muddy the waters further about putting the basics in place promptly before trying to progress. What marks well at intro, and prelim, may start to drop marks noticeably at novice and up because the basics are right. Having fewer low levels means people do actually no get the training to make sure the foundations are promptly in place before they start, and the get a shock later too.
		
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I don't ever SEE any Intro riders who aren't in control of their horse!   I've had more trouble in warm ups from people competing at a high level with their noses stuck in the air and a 'get out of my way I'm doing Advanced' attitude than from an Intro.


One venue I go to, and one someone has posted about on here, would die without the lower level competitors.


I think your attitude is pretty elitist and shows little understanding of the majority of ordinary horse owners, K


Have you trained a few youngsters?  I'm wondering if you haven't experienced a horse who is working novice level at home but sees a judge sitting behind a glass screen, turns and bolts out of the arena.  It certainly gave people a laugh twenty years ago when it happened to me before Intro was available!


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## khalswitz (12 December 2014)

ihatework said:



			What about people who go out and jump 65/75cm courses? Can the same be said about them too? Should get it right at home before going out?
		
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Probably to a degree, yes (excepting kids on ponies in both cases, if I haven't already stated). And I jumped 70cm for the first half of last season, so I have a very realistic picture of what a waste of time it was. Sometimes we got round, others we didn't - and the minute we started 80/90 courses out, and around 1m at home, all the basics we didn't have in place (like the canter!!) came to a head. If I had known better, instead of concentrating on 'ring practice' (which didn't make all that much difference really!) I wish id spent more time with a decent jumping instructor. Funnily enough, once we started that, everything got much better much quicker. So I sort of wish I had just stayed at home/ clinics etc until we were both better prepared. For the money we spent competing unaff sj last season, we could be a lot further on with our jumping. We were a bit more with it on the flat at keeping the quality training going, and I wish I'd done the same over fences...

I wrote for the style jumping judge at our BRC qualifiers, and the quality of riding in the 75 style jumping was shocking. She was appalled. The 85 was a lot better. This is the first year we'd run 75, and the first year we'd had so many elimination, run outs and cricket scores in a STYLE JUMPING class. It is dumbing down to the point where 'have a go' becomes messy and potentially dangerous.


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## khalswitz (12 December 2014)

cptrayes said:



			I don't ever SEE any Intro riders who aren't in control of their horse!   I've had more trouble in warm ups from people competing at a high level with their noses stick in the air and a 'get out of my way I'm doing Advanced' attitude than from an Intro.

I think your attitude is pretty elitist and shows little understanding of the majority of ordinary horse owners, K


Have you trained a few youngsters?  I'm wondering if you haven't experienced a horse who is working novice level at home but sees a judge sitting behind a glass screen, turns and bolts out of the arena.  It certainly gave people a laugh twenty years ago when it happened to me before Intro was available!
		
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I steward enough at RC dressage to dread the first class... Bucking, spooking, white knuckle riders... Horses napping to each other... That has been my experience of intro classes. It isn't pretty. However, as I said, they aren't as popular up here so maybe what I've seen isn't an accurate representation. But I know anyone looking to bring on a youngster (which I do for a living CPT, so yes, I understand the first few times out are unpredictable!) up here wouldn't use an intro class, as they would scare the snot out of a young horse... I certainly haven't seen them used for young horses, just the nervous older ladies and children mainly...

Sorry if you think it's elitist. I just think there has to be standards - and dressage is about training, so if it doesn't encourage training then it's failing at it's very heart. It also isn't competing if everyone gets a pat on the back and a well done for being here and a ribbon for everyone. The judge doesn't know your personal history of difficulties, just what they see in front of them. And we were god awful in iur first few comps - I was bolted with, nearly bucked off, and missed every marker in iurmfirst few tests, and flew over more jumps than my horse did when he started jumping. But it's through that I've realised that all the 'well done for trying and being here's didn't actually help me make anything better. The system isn't encouraging and intuitive in that way at all. If I'd had someone tell me to stop fretting and get his canter right before going out, and I had been more confident with what he knew, we could have avoided a lot of problems! It would still have been hair raising then first few times, but we'd have known where we were going much better, rather than concentrating so much on the ring and what we were trying to convey there.


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## khalswitz (12 December 2014)

khalswitz said:



			Probably to a degree, yes (excepting kids on ponies in both cases, if I haven't already stated). And I jumped 70cm for the first half of last season, so I have a very realistic picture of what a waste of time it was. Sometimes we got round, others we didn't - and the minute we started 80/90 courses out, and around 1m at home, all the basics we didn't have in place (like the canter!!) came to a head. If I had known better, instead of concentrating on 'ring practice' (which didn't make all that much difference really!) I wish id spent more time with a decent jumping instructor. Funnily enough, once we started that, everything got much better much quicker. So I sort of wish I had just stayed at home/ clinics etc until we were both better prepared. For the money we spent competing unaff sj last season, we could be a lot further on with our jumping. We were a bit more with it on the flat at keeping the quality training going, and I wish I'd done the same over fences...

I wrote for the style jumping judge at our BRC qualifiers, and the quality of riding in the 75 style jumping was shocking. She was appalled. The 85 was a lot better. This is the first year we'd run 75, and the first year we'd had so many elimination, run outs and cricket scores in a STYLE JUMPING class. It is dumbing down to the point where 'have a go' becomes messy and potentially dangerous.
		
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To add: not just because it was 75cm, but because people regularly jumping and doing well at 70cm unaff didn't understand the difference between simple courses with few fillers and spreads, and an up to height, up to width qualifying course with lots of fillers, and then didn't have the skills to ride it. That could still happen at bigger heights, but by then most people have learned some more skills that they can use when they find themselves out of their depth.

The same happened at our RC HT qualifiers, where the entire 80 team failed to get round (3/4 falling off) because they didn't realise the difference between going for a jolly at 80cm over some XC fences and round a simple course, and an 80cm qualifier for a big championship, that was up to height and width and technical. One girl wound up in hospital.

In dressage, it doesn't get dangerous in the same way, but that still doesn't excuse the dumbing down IMO


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## cptrayes (12 December 2014)

In what way is it dumbing down for someone who would not otherwise compete at all to go out at Intro?  Those people seem to be being ignored in this discussion.  As are people who are happy pootling and really aren't interested in progressing. Surely there's room for us all, and no need for anyone to be looking down on anyone else?


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## Farma (12 December 2014)

I have a client that has a broken back who's major achievement in the last few years has been winning a walk and trot test, she could never canter now but these tests haven given her a lot to aim for. Also my niece at 9 took my 16'1 to a w & t test and still displays her Rossette  and pics proudly from doing them ....why would anyone begrudge anyone else the chance to compete at what they feel is within their capability? You never know the reasons behind it!!!


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## Honey08 (12 December 2014)

I understand it's all within the rules, but even so I can't help finding it a bit "meh" seeing someone who could do so much more sticking at lower levels.  I know someone that has their AI and a few expensive horses that has been winning at intro for the past few years and occasional prelim too.  Regularly getting high 60s to mid 70s and posting pics of rosettes on Facebook.  I just see it all as a bit tasteless.


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## Caol Ila (12 December 2014)

A lot of people on this thread have given reasons for competing at Intro.  Who is to begrudge them?  I certainly won't.  

I think I dumbed down dressage, single-handedly, back in the day when I was competing at Second Level (in your language, Medium) more than anyone has ever achieved at Intro.

And like I said in my previous post, the people who are elevating the sport, the ones setting the standard, the Carl Hesters and Michael Eilbergs and Debbie MacDonalds of the world, are not slogging around Intro, Prelim, or Novice tests anyway. So really, when people talk about standards, come on, when you are looking at the lower levels of dressage, that is most assuredly the LAST place on earth to look for people setting standards in the sport.  But those people are out having fun, enjoying their horses, keeping the show circuit financially afloat.


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## spookypony (12 December 2014)

HEY, what happened to my bit? 



Palindrome said:



			1. Enter at A and wiggle down the centre line.

2. Halt at G with bum squished out to one side.

3. Move off as if stung by a bee, stop and stare in amazement at the judge's hair color, turn right.

4. decide that you don't want to track left at C

5. crab round the corner and set off fly leaping at H (that is where there accuracy comes in!!!)

6. pick up perfectly at K and carry on as if nothing happened

7. Working canter at A and complete 20 metre-ish egg shaped pattern 

8. include large buck when passing X

9. KX walk across diagonal on a long rein

10. XM still in walk proceed to raise horses head as if imitating a giraffe staring at something no-one else can even see in the distance, extra points for snorting 

11 MA sideways crab movement in trot still doing impression of giraffe 


Adding my bit...

12. K Canter very close to the rail

13. between E and H rider to hit the rail with their foot, horse explodes bucking, riders fall off

(yes, we did that at our first test  )
		
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Guess we'll have to add it in here, with some extra bits...

14. HCMB rider, limping, leads horse, trying to assess extent of damage to hip.

15. B re-mount from ground, while horse spinning like a top.

16. BFAK impatient passage.

17. K levade, demi-pirouette on hind legs only, skitter to X.


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## BYR (12 December 2014)

I havnt read this whole thread it is far to long but I will say next Sunday we are hoping to take a 4yo out to his first show. 

He can canter a 20m circle albeit a wobbly one. I have ridden at Medium BD and would say I am an experienced rider. 

However... we will enter the intro test as it is a great experience for him to just be at the show and meet other horses and experience the vibe. You cant get the buzz of a show at a clinic or lesson. I couldn't care less if he wins or comes last as long as it is an enjoyable experience and he learns something from the day  as soon as he is able to canter a non wobbly circle we will progress to Prelims but may still do the intro as a warm up, I hope we wont be considered out of place as we will no doubtably be recognisable as a big gangley baby! 

I think the intros are a great idea for baby horses and less confident riders - lets keep them going!


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## Honey08 (12 December 2014)

That's exactly the type of horse and rider they are meant for BYR.

people shorten names nowadays, intro is short for Introduction, ie an introduction to training/dressage.  Prelim = preliminary for horses in their early stages of training.  Then novice, for novice stages..  We've dumbed it all down and BD will never change the rules as the lower levels probably pay the bills.


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## spookypony (12 December 2014)

As usual, I can see every side to this argument (and there appear to be more than two operational on this thread)...

My German background predisposes me to remembering that the word "elementary" doesn't mean "difficult" (even if it can be used to make the Dr Watsons of this world feel like idiots); similarly, the German equivalent, "L", stands for "leicht" (easy). I, _personally_, don't want to faff around at levels below this forever, now that I have a horse that is more than capable of going farther. From this point of view, I can understand that PS and kh, far from wanting to discourage less experienced combinations, feel that the lowest levels, rather than encouraging/building confidence, in fact subliminally undermine this confidence by placing higher levels, or even just canter, on some sort of pedestal of accomplishment. This argument is akin to those that argue that by telling children that maths is hard, you make them rubbish at maths, because they believe it's hard.

On the other side, I struggled for several years to get my other horse just to perform consistently at Prelim and Novice. It wasn't for lack of good lessons or trying to improve. His issues in that respect were just too complex for me to disentangle, and as I've been told repeatedly, no professional in his right mind would ever have bothered (the word "hamburger" came up more than once...). Now, we've changed disciplines. But as a result, I now understand that there are many reasons a person might be choosing to remain at a level that others might see as below serious consideration. 

For example, on my old yard were many riders that competed only occasionally, in local unaffiliated competitions. One had had a very bad scare on her otherwise very well-behaved horse. She sat beautifully, but was mortally terrified of cantering him. For quite a while, she rode in local unaffiliated intros, generally placing very well, until at long last, she built up the courage to try a prelim. I've never seen anyone so relieved and happy to have cantered two 20m circles. Perhaps a sports psychologist would have got her there faster than a year of intro tests, but on the other hand, she'd probably still be waiting for her first appointment with one now. 

That yard also asked me to judge some intros and prelims in its own tiny, yard-only league. I confess I was extremely baffled when one kid was practically led around an intro test by a relative: how the heck does one judge a test when the rider isn't doing the steering? The kid in question does, however, have severe health difficulties...

Where is the line to be drawn, between encouraging the garden-variety hobby rider to try low-level competition (in an effort to encourage a higher standard of riding?), and making the competition so simple as to be either meaningless (how do you define "meaningful"?), or to place the previously-low levels on a false pedestal? Can a line even be drawn?


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## teapot (12 December 2014)

khalswitz said:



			The same happened at our RC HT qualifiers, where the entire 80 team failed to get round (3/4 falling off) because they didn't realise the difference between going for a jolly at 80cm over some XC fences and round a simple course, and an 80cm qualifier for a big championship, that was up to height and width and technical. One girl wound up in hospital.
		
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But what makes you think the same won't happen at 90? Aside from any qualification rules that there are.


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## spookypony (12 December 2014)

Perhaps a comparison, from essentially the same debate in another discipline: in Endurance, we sometimes get people who feel that below 80km (that's FEI* distance), there is no real point (beyond getting up the levels), and that running so many Pleasure rides and short competitive distances is "dumbing down the sport". Some believe that riders should be limited as to how many of the shorter distances they can do with any one horse, to encourage them to go up the levels. Here, I can speak from experience both as a rider and as an administrator:

As a rider, I've now done 3 competitive seasons with my pony, and 80km is now hopefully within reach. I needed the competition experience at the lower distances, because I am learning on the job, so to speak, not having the benefit of professional Endurance trainers. There aren't many rides available at 80km+ (or even 60km+), and shorter competitive distances are a great way to build up more fitness. I don't plan to go beyond 80km classes at this point, for various reasons. It should also be said that in EGB levels, for example, 80km is Advanced. 

As an admin, I see that the riders that prefer shorter distances have many different reasons for this: some are keeping older horses fit. Some enjoy the opportunity to ride in places where they normally wouldn't be able to go, just to enjoy the scenery. Some are doing cross-training for other disciplines such as dressage or eventing, where a fast 2-hour ride over hilly terrain is quite sufficient for their goals. Some are pursuing trophies specifically aimed at shorter distances (such as awards for riding in every branch in the country, or for achieving the highest number of Gold Award finishes). 

Also, I am aware that rides of 80km are difficult to organise and expensive to run. For us, literally, the Pleasure riders and Taster riders (our equivalent to Intro; you don't even collect mileage) finance the upper levels. If we are running a ride with classes of 80, 60, 50, 30, Pleasure, and Taster, then with 40 entries, I might expect a breakdown approximately like this: 2, 3, 3, 12, 17, 3. Without the Pleasures and 30s, the ride wouldn't run. The Tasters function like the Intros in that lots of people do just a few, and then get into longer classes, or that people take a baby horse so that it learns about the procedures without getting overfaced, or getting high heart-rates due to nerves on its card. At least one 80km-qualified rider only rides Tasters now, just to enjoy the day out and support the club. If we changed the rules to force people up the levels, most of our ridership would just quit.


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## khalswitz (12 December 2014)

teapot said:



			But what makes you think the same won't happen at 90? Aside from any qualification rules that there are.
		
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From the moaning that often goes on on this forum about the standard of riding at 90, it's probably almost as applicable! Specifically regarding jumping and XC rather than dressage, the 'have a go' mentality of the lowest levels does encourage people to attempt them when they may not be ready. The RCs encouraging riders at that height without having done a few BEs at least I feel was a bit irresponsible, but ultimately the fact that they run affiliated events over these small heights makes the step into eventing seem easy, so when faced with tougher courses (esp at unaff venues like the one where the qualifier was run, which can be lots tougher than be) they don't have the skills to ride, say, a sunken road, or a half coffin, or an owl hole, or a double of skinnies (all of which were in that course). 

Entering eventing at Novice, as in the old days, meant those skills had to be there at the outset, whereas with the simplification of courses in grassroots, they don't - and a championship or qualifying course (one girl I know wins regularly at 90 and has been eliminated multiple times at Badminton after qualifying, for example, and is therefore reluctant to move up) comes as a shock.

I probably come off as being a right bitch, but it's not that I don't think people should be encouraged, but I think with the downwards expansion of competition hasn't necessarily followed through with training IMO...

And I don't say this as someone looking down - I say this as someone who has really struggled, and having now finally actually started to improve and get on the right track, I see how little the system helped...


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## be positive (13 December 2014)

khalswitz said:



			From the moaning that often goes on on this forum about the standard of riding at 90, it's probably almost as applicable! Specifically regarding jumping and XC rather than dressage, the 'have a go' mentality of the lowest levels does encourage people to attempt them when they may not be ready. The RCs encouraging riders at that height without having done a few BEs at least I feel was a bit irresponsible, but ultimately the fact that they run affiliated events over these small heights makes the step into eventing seem easy, so when faced with tougher courses (esp at unaff venues like the one where the qualifier was run, which can be lots tougher than be) they don't have the skills to ride, say, a sunken road, or a half coffin, or an owl hole, or a double of skinnies (all of which were in that course). 

Entering eventing at Novice, as in the old days, meant those skills had to be there at the outset, whereas with the simplification of courses in grassroots, they don't - and a championship or qualifying course (one girl I know wins regularly at 90 and has been eliminated multiple times at Badminton after qualifying, for example, and is therefore reluctant to move up) comes as a shock.

I probably come off as being a right bitch, but it's not that I don't think people should be encouraged, but I think with the downwards expansion of competition hasn't necessarily followed through with training IMO...

And I don't say this as someone looking down - I say this as someone who has really struggled, and having now finally actually started to improve and get on the right track, I see how little the system helped...
		
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I see where you are coming from but there does seem to be the need to compete at every level from the tiny child on the lead rein hanging onto the saddle as they "jump" a course barely staying on board at a PC show to competitors in all spheres going out without enough preparation which is why the lower levels of affiliated were introduced to cater for them and take advantage of the income it generates, if they are not prepared well enough then they will fail to do well. 
If RCs are sending people ill prepared to area comps that is a failing that the RC needs to address, lack of training happens at all levels. 

You now know that you would have been better to spend your time and money on training rather than competing earlier in the year but that has come through experience and getting more educated, without that experience you would not have the opinions you now hold, not everyone is as intelligent as you or open to changing their ways, the system can only help those that want to be helped, many instructors go through the motions and many riders have plenty of lessons but until the penny drops little will change.

As for the lowest levels they do have a place, my horse is coming back from injury and may never do what he was originally aimed for, BE, my current aim is to do intro dressage, I have never done a test at this level before but for him it will still be a major achievement to just get out to a competition, I need something to aim for having spent almost 2 years rehabbing him, prelim is a way off as he is still not really cantering but he is well enough established to behave in the warm up and enjoy a trip out.


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## JFTDWS (13 December 2014)

FWIW, I think the argument about eventing is a valid one - it's terrifying watching low level eventing.  It really is.  And I don't say that as someone with necessarily greater skills in that field, but as someone who isn't stupid enough to take the risk without those skills (both horse and rider) in place.



Eat said:



			As for the lowest levels they do have a place, my horse is coming back from injury and may never do what he was originally aimed for, BE, my current aim is to do intro dressage, I have never done a test at this level before but for him it will still be a major achievement to just get out to a competition, I need something to aim for having spent almost 2 years rehabbing him, prelim is a way off as he is still not really cantering but he is well enough established to behave in the warm up and enjoy a trip out.
		
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I think after 2 years rehab you deserve a bit of hope - good luck getting him to a nice day out and a cruise around a test he can manage.


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## cptrayes (13 December 2014)

None of the bad riding anyone has described on here has happened because low level affiliated competition has been introduced. It always used happen at local events.

Lower levels were introduced so that the organisations could get more revenue and it's been exceptionally effective for BE and BS and a nice money earner for BD.  

Whatever level is the lowest level of competition, some people will always do it with too little training.  

And khalzwitz, you belong to the oddest Riding Club I have ever heard of. None of the ones around here would put forward incompetent teams who all get eliminated for events, or allow incompetent riders to endanger themselves or others in a dressage warm up arena.

Yes, I see plenty of 'bad' riding. But I don't assume that person has the money, time, ability to do anything about it, and frankly, if it's simply their choice not to learn, what business is it of anyone else's if the horse isn't being abused?  In general, I find people who plod along doing the same thing as always much more content than the ones striving constantly for the next goal.


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## be positive (13 December 2014)

I think after 2 years rehab you deserve a bit of hope - good luck getting him to a nice day out and a cruise around a test he can manage.[/QUOTE]


Thank you, we live in hope and aiming for an intro test is the target for now, vet said he would not come sound so we are already ahead of the game, then at least there is something to aim for, horse is of the opinion that dressage is pointless he is aiming to get back showjumping which is looking to be a possibility but dressage is safer for now and more realistic.


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## FellOutOfFavour (13 December 2014)

This popped up on my FB feed this morning, and is somewhat relevant to this discussion.
http://dressagecurmudgeon.blogspot.co.uk/2014/10/i-feel-just-like-forrest-gump-only-more.html?m=1
As both a piss poor runner and a disastrous dressage diva I totally agree with her observations on the running and riding communities.


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## lynds81 (13 December 2014)

cptrayes said:



			I think it is a completely different issue doing an Intro as a warm up level to using any other level as a warm up class. Intro classes are walk and trot only. They were designed for people and horses who simply aren't ready to do a Prelim, to allow them the experience of competing and possibly getting a frilly,  not for people who can't (or even worse, can)  win a Prelim and want to win something.

I don't care whether it's within the rules or not (and at the centre I go to it's not) , I think it's pot hunting and bad manners to compete in an Intro if you and your horse have the competence to do a Prelim.
		
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But then the first time I take my 4yo old out I plan to do both... Largely so the first time in white boards he might not buck me off in canter!! 

He can do a Prelim test quite comfortably at home, and I expect will do one on his first outing as well as a W&T but IMO I don't see how this is bad manners, or unacceptable behaviour.


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## Caol Ila (13 December 2014)

CobsCanDo said:



			This popped up on my FB feed this morning, and is somewhat relevant to this discussion.
http://dressagecurmudgeon.blogspot.co.uk/2014/10/i-feel-just-like-forrest-gump-only-more.html?m=1
As both a piss poor runner and a disastrous dressage diva I totally agree with her observations on the running and riding communities.
		
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Dressage Curmudgeon is my favourite blogger.  I love her observations.  And in that post, she is spot on.  Are people in the running community saying, "Unless you can do a marathon in less than three hours, you should not even be there!  And lets get rid of those half-marathons.  It just encourages people to not train hard enough."  Um.... I doubt it.


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## cptrayes (13 December 2014)

lynds81 said:



			But then the first time I take my 4yo old out I plan to do both... Largely so the first time in white boards he might not buck me off in canter!! 

He can do a Prelim test quite comfortably at home, and I expect will do one on his first outing as well as a W&T but IMO I don't see how this is bad manners, ormacceptable behaviour.
		
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And neither do I and I never said it was, so is your reply aimed at me or someone else?

I think it's exactly the situation that Intro was invented for. You currently have no idea if your horse is capable of doing a decent prelim under test conditions and your plan to do both is a good one.


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## cptrayes (13 December 2014)

CobsCanDo said:



			This popped up on my FB feed this morning, and is somewhat relevant to this discussion.
http://dressagecurmudgeon.blogspot.co.uk/2014/10/i-feel-just-like-forrest-gump-only-more.html?m=1
As both a piss poor runner and a disastrous dressage diva I totally agree with her observations on the running and riding communities.
		
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Spot on, thanks for that


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## Tiddlypom (13 December 2014)

There will always be those who have lesser ambitions, and I fully agree that they should be catered for. I remain unconvinced, however, that Intro was a necessary addition, Prelim is IMHO the more appropriate base line.

I do have issue with the ridiculously high marking of many low level UA tests. By all means go out and compete, but if your test is poorly ridden on a stiff, untrained, hollow horse how on earth should competitors be rewarded with results in the 60% range? (Btw, this is not aimed at anyone on here who may have posted videos up, it is a general observation).

Are the judges and trainers in cahoots in rewarding an utterly substandard test with falsely flattering comments? The full range of marks are there to be used. How on earth are competitors meant to evaluate their performances if they are deluded into believing that they are on the right lines?

I am so lucky that I had a trainer (the late Julie Basil BHSI) who was an absolute stickler for getting the basics right. She could encourage you forward from a very low base line (and we were properly rubbish when we started with her) but we always knew what we were aiming for.


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## eahotson (13 December 2014)

Tiddlypom said:



			There will always be those who have lesser ambitions, and I fully agree that they should be catered for. I remain unconvinced, however, that Intro was a necessary addition, Prelim is IMHO the more appropriate base line.

I do have issue with the ridiculously high marking of many low level UA tests. By all means go out and compete, but if your test is poorly ridden on a stiff, untrained, hollow horse how on earth should competitors be rewarded with results in the 60% range? (Btw, this is not aimed at anyone on here who may have posted videos up, it is a general observation).

Are the judges and trainers in cahoots in rewarding an utterly substandard test with falsely flattering comments? The full range of marks are there to be used. How on earth are competitors meant to evaluate their performances if they are deluded into believing that they are on the right lines?

I am so lucky that I had a trainer (the late Julie Basil BHSI) who was an absolute stickler for getting the basics right. She could encourage you forward from a very low base line (and we were properly rubbish when we started with her) but we always knew what we were aiming for.
		
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Lack of basic training is a big problem IMHO with the riding in this country (and maybe abroad for all I know).My little neice of 5 has started riding lessons at a BHS riding school.First lesson.First time sat on a pony.Walk yes?? NO rising trot.Second lesson beginning jumping.Albeit being let over a very tiny cross pole.I do realize you have to make it interesting but not at the expense of basic teaching surely? I had been riding (after a fashion I suppose) for some years when I met one of my best trainers.Hec wouldn't let me canter for at least 2 months if not more.Most of my early lessons were in walk with a little trot while we worked on my then non existant seat.
Perhaps the clubs could do some training sessions aimed squarely at the walk/trot people.This will hopefully help them to raise their stakes in the basics, gain some confidence in their abilities and hopefully move on to more training perhaps aimed at the moving on to prelim groups.Competition would be a good aim and focus for improvement then.


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## eahotson (13 December 2014)

khalswitz said:



			From the moaning that often goes on on this forum about the standard of riding at 90, it's probably almost as applicable! Specifically regarding jumping and XC rather than dressage, the 'have a go' mentality of the lowest levels does encourage people to attempt them when they may not be ready. The RCs encouraging riders at that height without having done a few BEs at least I feel was a bit irresponsible, but ultimately the fact that they run affiliated events over these small heights makes the step into eventing seem easy, so when faced with tougher courses (esp at unaff venues like the one where the qualifier was run, which can be lots tougher than be) they don't have the skills to ride, say, a sunken road, or a half coffin, or an owl hole, or a double of skinnies (all of which were in that course). 

Entering eventing at Novice, as in the old days, meant those skills had to be there at the outset, whereas with the simplification of courses in grassroots, they don't - and a championship or qualifying course (one girl I know wins regularly at 90 and has been eliminated multiple times at Badminton after qualifying, for example, and is therefore reluctant to move up) comes as a shock.

I probably come off as being a right bitch, but it's not that I don't think people should be encouraged, but I think with the downwards expansion of competition hasn't necessarily followed through with training IMO...

And I don't say this as someone looking down - I say this as someone who has really struggled, and having now finally actually started to improve and get on the right track, I see how little the system helped...
		
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I do see where you are coming from here.With your present knowledge and experience what do you think can be done to help people progress?


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## EquiEquestrian556 (13 December 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Yes, I see plenty of 'bad' riding. But I don't assume that person has the money, time, ability to do anything about it, and frankly, if it's simply their choice not to learn, what business is it of anyone else's if the horse isn't being abused?  In general, I find people who plod along doing the same thing as always much more content than the ones striving constantly for the next goal.
		
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^^ Agree with this.


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## Rollin (13 December 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Spot on, thanks for that 

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I don't do dressage but that was a wonderful read.


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## TheoryX1 (13 December 2014)

Well, what an interesting thread this is.  Firstly, I for one dont care a dam about who does what in what class.  Life has taught  me there is always somebody better than me in every activity in life, I just have to work harder to make myself better, nobody is going to do it for me.  I am reading this for what its worth as a happy hacker with a semi retired old cob, who is wanting to buy a younger horse next year to do some BD on.  Of course I will start with intro, but as soon as we start getting decent scores, we will move on up.  I dont care how long it takes and I am not scared of competing with the big boys either.  OK, I will get more than a few wobbles over it, the type my daughter gets over going into do BE Novice test after WFP, but I have as much right to be there as anyone else, I will have paid my money and done my prep work, so I am going to do as well as I can.  

Oh and yes to the cheesy chips -yum yum.  Roll on the eventing season, but myself and a friend have found some excellent competition venues that serve them, can even give you marks out of ten if you want.  Oh yes, I am just about post menopausal, gone through without too many hitches, so I guess I must stay in Intro classes -lol - not on your life, I am as competitive in life generally as I am in my career.  If new pony and I are good enough, we will go as far as we can - why on earth not?  Thats always been my philosophy in life.  Will even buy some bling and matchy matchy as well.  Goodness, I thought I would never say that, but if I have a posh enough pony who it looks nice on, why not?


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## JoJo_ (13 December 2014)

khalswitz said:



			To add: not just because it was 75cm, but because people regularly jumping and doing well at 70cm unaff didn't understand the difference between simple courses with few fillers and spreads, and an up to height, up to width qualifying course with lots of fillers, and then didn't have the skills to ride it. That could still happen at bigger heights, but by then most people have learned some more skills that they can use when they find themselves out of their depth.

The same happened at our RC HT qualifiers, where the entire 80 team failed to get round (3/4 falling off) because they didn't realise the difference between going for a jolly at 80cm over some XC fences and round a simple course, and an 80cm qualifier for a big championship, that was up to height and width and technical. One girl wound up in hospital.

In dressage, it doesn't get dangerous in the same way, but that still doesn't excuse the dumbing down IMO
		
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Tbh area 22 HT was hardly a big championship. It wasn't even a BE course. What made it difficult was that the xc course was linking fences together which were very close and somewhat technical combinations for an 80 as all the organisers had to play with was a training venue. It's was all jump jump jump instead of jump canter stretch jump canter stretch like a be80.

IMO it was too tricky for the level which isn't the competitors fault. All my RC team got round and none of them had done BE before as I didn't select anyone who had never done an unaffil event before so I knew they were capable. Either the next qualifier should be at a more suitable venue where an easier course can be put together or your RC should assess capabilities before entering a team.

Eta sorry I read that wrong. It was a qualifier for a big championship.


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## khalswitz (14 December 2014)

JoJo_ said:



			Tbh area 22 HT was hardly a big championship. It wasn't even a BE course. What made it difficult was that the xc course was linking fences together which were very close and somewhat technical combinations for an 80 as all the organisers had to play with was a training venue. It's was all jump jump jump instead of jump canter stretch jump canter stretch like a be80.

IMO it was too tricky for the level which isn't the competitors fault. All my RC team got round and none of them had done BE before as I didn't select anyone who had never done an unaffil event before so I knew they were capable. Either the next qualifier should be at a more suitable venue where an easier course can be put together or your RC should assess capabilities before entering a team.

Eta sorry I read that wrong. It was a qualifier for a big championship.
		
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That's my point though - BE has simplified eventing for BE80's, and now a lot of the typical types of jumps seen at unaff (ie, generally older style, so more technical combinations with a lot of full up and full width fences for the height) are actually too tough for people who think they are succeeding at that level.

Personally, I don't think it was too tough - for people aiming to go to Champs, the qualifier should be tougher than a BE, or we end up with the same scenario as Be has with Badminton Grassroots, were the regional finals are relatively straightforward and Badminton seems a million miles tougher once you finally get there. If some of the failed combinations at qualifiers had had a more simplified course and qualified, how do you think champs would have gone?? However, I think what people *expect* has been simplified, and that makes it impossible to approach a qualifier or a champs with any degree of understanding of what you're facing.

I'll be the first to say we are massively rethinking our selection process after this. But that fact that neither the committee nor the competitors considered it is very telling IMO. Our feedback from our 80 and 90 riders (and our 90 riders qualified and went to champs, where they did well, but all were well established at 90 with some 100 runs under their belts too) were that the course was tough compared with BE of the same height, with a lot of tough fences with no alternatives. I was fence judging at the trakehner to roll top on the hill combination, and watched so many solid 90 combinations result in falls (and one horse temporarily in the ditch) because people just weren't approaching with the right canter and with the right line. These are important skills to learn and be teaching your horse about outside of the competition environment - it may not be required at Grassroots for the competition, but it's still something people should be learning, same as how in dressage we compete the level below we work.

Again, apologies if I sound like an elitist bitch, especially as I would have nowhere to stand myself, but I have been so frustrated over the lowering of standards that leads to succeeding at low levels with no understanding of where you're going wrong when you try to step up and fail abysmally without the fundamentals in place that, without the lowest levels, you would have to ensure were in place before you started.


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## Maesfen (14 December 2014)

khalswitz said:



			Again, apologies if I sound like an elitist bitch, especially as I would have nowhere to stand myself, but I have been so frustrated over the lowering of standards that leads to succeeding at low levels with no understanding of where you're going wrong when you try to step up and fail abysmally without the fundamentals in place that, without the lowest levels, you would have to ensure were in place before you started.
		
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It's not bitchy at all from where I'm standing!
I agree that the BE 80 has done wonders for the coffers of BE but it's done very little to improve the standard, particularly those that only stay in their safe zone and don't want to step up the classes.  Years ago, you strived to become good enough to not disgrace yourself to go affiliated which meant that your learnt the ropes and had a better grounding by using the unaffiliated classes as a school ground; far better than any grounding you see today in spite of the fact that most now have trainers/instructors as the norm to put some polish on.  Either those trainers/instructors are failing miserably and should be avoided like the plague or their pupils need many a kick up the backside to get themselves  good enough to even think about competing.  If it's a case of the pupil doesn't want to know or accept how bad they are but nobody dare tell them then it's a sorry state of affairs if they're not humble enough to accept criticism and that nobody is man enough to tell them.   Nobody minds anybody learning on the job )as long as they are not a danger to their horse or others) but some just don't learn from their mistakes and make the same silly errors time and time again which BE 80 lets you get away with because it's not of a decent enough standard to instil respect in the course.


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## Shantara (17 December 2014)

Not read the whole thread, but just come to chip in about whether or not Intro is needed - it is for someone with a gaited horse! 
There is NO way I could ride a Prelim on Ned and expect to finish. He doesn't canter correctly and for what I do, I don't need him too and at 15, I think it'd be almost impossible to teach him a good enough canter to compete. 
I had great fun doing an Intro on him, because he has a good walk and a good trot (when he's relaxed) so I figured I'd give it a shot! We came 1st on our first test and 3rd on our second  
I think Intro is great for people who want to have a go and maybe don't have the horse for anything higher. If I wanted to move up the dressage ladder, I would have bought a dressage horse. I just did it for something else to do.


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## Hayleighm175 (17 December 2014)

I also have a gained horse! !  I would not be able to do anything more than intro on her either, as she cannot canter properly!   X


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## Shantara (17 December 2014)

Woo! High-five for fellow gaited horse owner


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## Hayleighm175 (17 December 2014)

Haha. Just realised I put gained not gaited*     mines a rescue trotter cross   she's ace! X


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