# 2 more horses die at cheltenham today :( :(



## Milanesa (14 March 2012)

Very sad....hope the link works

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/horse-racing/17360447


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## team barney (14 March 2012)

R.I.P innocent souls


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## Milanesa (14 March 2012)

Seems featherbed lane also broke a leg but it just says abergavenny died after the race? Does anyone have anymore info? RIP poor horses.


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## Echo Bravo (14 March 2012)

Lets face it horses die and not always at the races, it's a shame that these things happen at the races,but having read some posts about the abuse,starvation and cruelty to ordinary horses and ponies. I for one are not going down the road of this shouldn't happen and racing is bad etc:-


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## Dobiegirl (14 March 2012)

According to the Racing Post, Abergavenny fell and was fatally injured.


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## Milanesa (14 March 2012)

Thx dobiegirl.


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## TelH (14 March 2012)

I heard unconfirmed reports that Abergavenny broke an elbow and was being seen by the course vets. I don't know if that was true but if it was I can only guess that they decided it was too bad to repair   One way or the other he didn't make it   Lets hope the next 2 days are better.


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## Milanesa (14 March 2012)

Lets hope so telh, thanks for news.


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## Holly Hocks (14 March 2012)

Five in two days - let's hope there are no more in the next two days.


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## Tiffany (14 March 2012)

So if a horse fractures a leg can it not be repaired or is it that even if repaired thwy won't race again so decide to PTS?


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## Elf On A Shelf (14 March 2012)

There is a difference between a fractured leg and a broken leg. A fractured leg is one where the bone has cracked but hasn't moved - this is fixable. A broken leg is when the bone has split and moved out of place - these generally can't be fixed because they have been done at speed and it won't have been just one break to the bone, it will have been several.

ETA - The broken bone is the one most often seen in racing because you can't stop the second the bone breaks. It generally takes between 4 & 10 strides to safely stop the horse if it is still trying to gallop. Hence fractures are rare in racing.


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## Maesfen (14 March 2012)

I stand to be corrected but I think Featherbed Lane happened on the flat; one minute he was about fifth the next he was pulled up according to commentator.


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## Over2You (15 March 2012)

That is now five horses dead in two days, and no mention of them in any of Horse and Hound's news articles - sickening! As is this wretched 'festival'! 

Rest peacefully Featherbed Lane and Abergavenny.


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## Milanesa (15 March 2012)

Let's hope there are no fatalities today. 5 horses in two days is a high number IMO and very sad.


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## Amymay (15 March 2012)

Their sure racking up the casualties.  Shame :0(


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## Maesfen (15 March 2012)

Please put it into perspective.  Horses breaking legs is commonplace all the time, you only have to read about it on here; it happens a lot in fields when they're relaxing let alone when they are participating in sport.  They are freak accidents, most times horses tumble and get away with it but if they do happen to land badly, sometimes sh**te happens.  It's unfortunate but a fact of life.  The fact that some of these happened on the flat should bare out the fact that the course itself is not to blame.  This is proved by the fact that the majority of the runners get around safely and what happens to those that don't is purely accidental; sad but an accident.
Racecourses do their utmost in the safety aspect, they can't do more and the safety fanatics are a lot to blame in some parts by forcing through the lowering and softening of fences which equals more speed equals more risk.  I'll be very surprised if the National doesn't have a higher ratio of injuries this time due to the moderations they have been forced to carry out.


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## paulineh (15 March 2012)

We understand that the death of any horse is not good regardless of the reason. We all ride our horses knowing that there is a risk, what ever we do.

We just have to look at the deaths of humans in Eventing, should Eventing be stopped.

I am always concerned about what happens on the Race Course (Work in the Jockey Hospital at Newbury Race Course) in respect of the horses, as the jockeys are easier to mend than the horses.

There will always be those for and those against Racing as there is for Hunting or Eventing or any other discipline.

Cruelty of any animal is also high on the list BUT what do some of the so called caring society's  do NOTHING.

I too hope that there are no more deaths at Cheltenham.


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## Milanesa (15 March 2012)

I dint think it can be dismissed maesfen because 'horses breaking legs is commonplace all the tIme'. I am not a fluffy bunny type, but I do think 5 horses deaths (4 due to leg breaks) is not common. I appreciate racecourses do try hard, but with these statistics something is going wrong. I am more inclined to blame the industry rather than the racecourses, perhaps these horses are pushed too hard at a young age thus making them predisposed to injuries and weaker bones? There is no one reason. There's no doubt the amount of training a racehorse goes through is immense. Who knows, maybe it was just bad luck, hopefully today and tomorrow will pass casualty free although I doubt it.


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## Baggybreeches (15 March 2012)

Maesfen said:



			Please put it into perspective.  Horses breaking legs is commonplace all the time, you only have to read about it on here; it happens a lot in fields when they're relaxing let alone when they are participating in sport.  They are freak accidents, most times horses tumble and get away with it but if they do happen to land badly, sometimes sh**te happens.  It's unfortunate but a fact of life.  The fact that some of these happened on the flat should bare out the fact that the course itself is not to blame.  This is proved by the fact that the majority of the runners get around safely and what happens to those that don't is purely accidental; sad but an accident.
Racecourses do their utmost in the safety aspect, they can't do more and the safety fanatics are a lot to blame in some parts by forcing through the lowering and softening of fences which equals more speed equals more risk.  I'll be very surprised if the National doesn't have a higher ratio of injuries this time due to the moderations they have been forced to carry out.
		
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APPLAUSE! The speed that is resulting from the modifications has a many fold impact, as the courses get faster the horses are bred more for speed, and are less your old fashioned chaser types.


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## Maesfen (15 March 2012)

Milanesa said:



			I dint think it can be dismissed maesfen because 'horses breaking legs is commonplace all the tIme'. I am not a fluffy bunny type, but I do think 5 horses deaths (4 due to leg breaks) is not common. I appreciate racecourses do try hard, but with these statistics something is going wrong.
		
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But when only a couple of those were actually due to falls I think does make a difference and the most common reason for destruction on a racecourse is due to broken legs or other parts.  I was told that one of the horses concerned did actually only break down, not broke a leg but so severely it needed destruction anyway and it would have been written up as the same.
There is a move now that vets will need to sedate any horse and remove it from the course for inspection before destruction even if it is patently obvious that that is what is needed immediately let alone the difficulty of getting a shot into a distressed, liable to be thrashing around horse which is unsafe for everyone involved.  Needless to say the vets are up in arms about this as it increases the suffering for the horse which is totally unnecessary but this is what the animal activists want to happen; it shows how out of touch with reality they actually are.

I remember Princess Anne's eventer, Doublet broke a leg during a training gallop on a proper gallop on the flat and there are countless more that have done similarly; wasn't there someone on here this happened too recently as well?  Pure sad accidents nothing more that could happen anywhere so yes, I would say they're a commonplace occurence.


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## weegreypony (15 March 2012)

The deaths are high profile with the Festival being the biggest event in jump racing. We don't hear about the number of everyday leisure horses that get put down due to feed-induced laminitis but if we did, I'm sure we'd be shocked.

I'm of the opinion that these horses want for nothing, love what they do and receieve vet care that most normal horses can only dream of, even at the end of their lives. The deaths are sad, but then so is so much else that goes on in the world - our neighbour leaves for work at 7am each day and gets back at 7pm at night and his big dog is shut inside, alone, all day every day - it doesn't get walked. This saddens me every single day, and it's just one example. Knowing the love, care and attention the racehorses get is reassurance enough for me.


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## Daffodil (15 March 2012)

I do feel though that the dry weather we have had, for all the 4 million gallons or whatever it is of water that they've poured on the track, has contributed to the rather desperate tally so far this week.    I fail to see exactly how impossible it is to water the xc course, when presumably they can get vehicles round it to maintain, cut and fertilise it.  

I can only judge the going on what I see on television but there looked to be precious little cut in the ground and hardly any kick-back visible.   More  horses than usual were looking uncomfortable over their fences and landing badly.

And as for the stupifyingly crass stewarding yesterday ...... 

Whatever the reason I shall spend the next two days feeling very sick!


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## alliersv1 (15 March 2012)

Maesfen said:



			Racecourses do their utmost in the safety aspect, they can't do more and the safety fanatics are a lot to blame in some parts by forcing through the lowering and softening of fences which equals more speed equals more risk.  I'll be very surprised if the National doesn't have a higher ratio of injuries this time due to the moderations they have been forced to carry out.
		
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Totally agree with this. Making fences smaller doesn't necessarily lower the risk, it just changes it.
Obviously, the changes to Beechers I believe are a good thing, but in general, with a large field, the increase in speed allowed by the smaller obstacles brings its' own problems.
I have to say though, that I no longer watch them jump the second last on the chase course at Cheltenham through my fiingers. That is a change that seems to have been very much for the better.
Also, with regard to the the outrage of the National last year. The general public who watch normally were outraged by the deaths of the horses. Sadly, as we have already done to death (pardon the pun), this is not unusual at this race/ meeting. What WAS unusual last year, was that due to the changes made to the course, and the ability to "bypass" the fences, they actually had to LOOK at the bodies.


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## millhouse (15 March 2012)

May the two that died yesterday rest in peace.   Let's hope there are no more.


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## Elf On A Shelf (15 March 2012)

The worst thing Aintree could possibly do last year they did - they left the horses on the track to prove that they could bypass fences. Every other year the bodies had been removed before the runners got to that fence again. They tried to look big and clever and instead looked like morons. Same as Cheltenham this year with the flag and dolling off fiasco!


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## lachlanandmarcus (15 March 2012)

Baggybreeches said:



			APPLAUSE! The speed that is resulting from the modifications has a many fold impact, as the courses get faster the horses are bred more for speed, and are less your old fashioned chaser types.
		
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I thoroughly agree, the National/chases are safest when the going is soft, the horses are slow and the fences are huge but honest You still get falls but they are rarely fatal. 

The lower the fences get, the faster they go and the more dangerous it becomes. I agree with amending some of the changes in level from takeoff to landing and with making the ground line much clearer in the fences but the height - no, I would like to see the height raised if anything (since the horses can go through the brush if they dont make the height), they need steadying up and slowing down.


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## lcsd114 (15 March 2012)

@EKW, alliers and lachlan...thank you.  I totally agree and made the same point in the GN thread last year!

Quoting myself from then...The fences are not too big. In fact , some of them have been modified to make them more forgiving to mistakes. Becher's had the slope on the landing side made less of a slope plus the "brook" on the landing side is covered up. Others have been shortened and the spruce covering them falls more easily than before, making it easier to slide through if you are too close or too low. I said back then that doing that would make the injuries worse rather than better and I was right.

I don't like seeing horses die but I still love the racing and don't want to see the animal rights group's protests overwhelm the common sense that most racing people have.


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## Maesfen (16 March 2012)

EKW said:



			The worst thing Aintree could possibly do last year they did - they left the horses on the track to prove that they could bypass fences. Every other year the bodies had been removed before the runners got to that fence again. They tried to look big and clever and instead looked like morons. Same as Cheltenham this year with the flag and dolling off fiasco!
		
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Rubbish.  It's because that is what the 'animal protectors' wanted and it back fired on them because people were actually able to see the bodies left in situ whereas before they would have been pulled off the course incredibly quickly out of sight.
I agree the dolling off was less than successful this week.


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## Gracie21 (16 March 2012)

Very sad news  Lets hope there are no more tragic accidents


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## applecart14 (20 March 2012)

At the risk of getting told off like last time here is a useful link for those interested.  http://www.horsedeathwatch.com/

It lists every horse killed on british racetracks over the last five or so years - the tally stands at 808 now.  If you go to the drop down menu you can see the courses which are considered the most dangerous.  Think from memory Southwell and Cheltenham are the most dangerous, someone said that Cheltenham's landings are lower than the take offs which cause lots of problems for horses with miss steps.


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## Elf On A Shelf (20 March 2012)

applecart14 said:



			At the risk of getting told off like last time here is a useful link for those interested.  http://www.horsedeathwatch.com/

It lists every horse killed on british racetracks over the last five or so years - the tally stands at 808 now.  If you go to the drop down menu you can see the courses which are considered the most dangerous.  Think from memory Southwell and Cheltenham are the most dangerous, someone said that Cheltenham's landings are lower than the take offs which cause lots of problems for horses with miss steps.
		
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My horse is on Death Watch as having broken down and been destoyed at Perth  All I have to say is that I'm spending a bloody fortune feeding a ghost!


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## Elf On A Shelf (20 March 2012)

I'm also not entirely sure that Campbell Gillies will be overly chuffed with being named as an amatuer on "Some Weirdo Counts How Many Horses Die"  List! He is a fully qualified professional that has ridden out his claim. If I find any more discrepencies I shall let you know 

Oh yes, that is how incredibly professional that site is - they can't even spell Campbell's name right - on there he is Cambell Gillies. Tut tut!


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## Alec Swan (20 March 2012)

applecart14 said:



			...........over the last five or so years - the tally stands at 808 now.  .........
		
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By your fairly accurate stats,  that works out at about 161 horses dying whilst,  or immediately after racing,  _per year_.  Now if we consider the many thousands of horses which are raced,  _annually_,  I'd say that the level of care and attention has been roundly vindicated,  and that the modest losses,  how ever regretful,  are an acceptable risk.  

A few years ago,  a friend,  on not being able to reach a vet,  'phoned me.  Her horse was standing in a P&R paddock,  on its own,  with a bone exiting the hind leg.  The accident wasn't witnessed,  and to this day,  there has been no reasonable explanation. 

Ban the ownership of all equines,  I say. 

Alec.


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## Elf On A Shelf (20 March 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			Ban the ownership of all equines,  I say. 

Alec.
		
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But then what would happen when we turned all of these captive horses loose and they kicked the crap out of each other breaking bones left right and centre? Causing huge amounts of damage? We have no wild lions, tigers, hyena's etc to pick them off and eat the fallen stock and no vultures to clean up the mess! 

Hang on! Just thought of the solution! Open all the doors to the enclosures in the zoo and let all the animals roam free together! Just like times of old when the strong survived at the demise of the weak!

Sorted!


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## Kadastorm (20 March 2012)

horse death watch is an utter load of rubbish. they only seem to add in the 'big ones' from cheltenham, aintree and a few in between and make up the rest. i know of other horses who have been PTS and not mentioned on there but then there are horses on that site who are still happily grazing in their paddocks. 

Wish people would use their noggin and see that actually these racehorses probably live better than most people (certainly better than me!) and love their job. If they are tragically injured, they are treated humanely and dispatched quicker than most horses are. The racing industry helps veterinary research and which in turn, helps us with our horses and also provides jobs and careers which we are seriously lacking in this economical climate. 

i feel sorry for the horses and ponies who are owned by people who either dont have a clue or dont give a damn, they suffer more than racehorses do. 

these threads come up every year when the big races are on. getting boring now.


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## bubbilygum (20 March 2012)

Maesfen said:



			Please put it into perspective.  Horses breaking legs is commonplace all the time, you only have to read about it on here; it happens a lot in fields when they're relaxing let alone when they are participating in sport.  They are freak accidents, most times horses tumble and get away with it but if they do happen to land badly, sometimes sh**te happens.  It's unfortunate but a fact of life.  The fact that some of these happened on the flat should bare out the fact that the course itself is not to blame.  This is proved by the fact that the majority of the runners get around safely and what happens to those that don't is purely accidental; sad but an accident.
Racecourses do their utmost in the safety aspect, they can't do more and the safety fanatics are a lot to blame in some parts by forcing through the lowering and softening of fences which equals more speed equals more risk.  I'll be very surprised if the National doesn't have a higher ratio of injuries this time due to the moderations they have been forced to carry out.
		
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I recall Ginger McCain once saying something along the lines of the safety measures put in place at Aintree actually makes the race more dangerous, as the lower, easier fences mean the horses don't have to slow down as much, and accidents are more likely at speed, and also the speed makes the accidents more likely to be serious.


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## alliersv1 (21 March 2012)

bubbilygum said:



			I recall Ginger McCain once saying something along the lines of the safety measures put in place at Aintree actually makes the race more dangerous, as the lower, easier fences mean the horses don't have to slow down as much, and accidents are more likely at speed, and also the speed makes the accidents more likely to be serious.
		
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A few of us have already mentioned this. With such a large field, and huge stamina task ahead of them, they need slowing down a bit. As I said before, they haven't removed the risk, they have just changed it. With the exception of Beechers, whose changes over the years, I believe, have been for the good.


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## shelbie (22 March 2012)

at the risk of being slated, I really think all jump races should be banned. the the speed at which the races are run the height of the jumps, the tremendous test of stamina the large fields, too much for any animal, cant bear to watch them myself.      FRIEND OF THE HORSE.


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## alliersv1 (22 March 2012)

shelbie said:



			at the risk of being slated, I really think all jump races should be banned. the the speed at which the races are run the height of the jumps, the tremendous test of stamina the large fields, too much for any animal, cant bear to watch them myself.      FRIEND OF THE HORSE.
		
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That is your opinion, which you are perfectly entitled to. That is what the "off" button is for. 

As regards for it being "too much for any animal"..That is a very sweeping statement. Too much for my cobalob sure, but lots of very successful racehorses seem to manage fine.

What would you do with the surplus of thoroughbreds if such a ban was imposed?

Not slating, btw, genuine question.


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## Elf On A Shelf (22 March 2012)

shelbie said:



			at the risk of being slated, I really think all jump races should be banned. the the speed at which the races are run the height of the jumps, the tremendous test of stamina the large fields, too much for any animal, cant bear to watch them myself.      FRIEND OF THE HORSE.
		
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So you would ban jumps racing where horses don't start their careers until they are 3/4 but you will let flat racing carry on where horses are broken as yearlings? Horses still die flat racing, they break bones much more easily because they are galloping on firm ground faster than a jumps horse. Also a fair few never even make it to the track because they snap their pelvis's breaking from the stalls.

And as has already been said - you have a remote control for your tv - use it to change channel.


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## shelbie (22 March 2012)

what a load of rubbish, raceing is a business not a hobby and as such the animals will always be the ones to suffer.you are not trying to tell me people arent in it for the money, that they really love the horses , which is why they put their lives at risk by entering them in such races as "The grand national" too many people getting rich at the expense of the horse, which sadly is why it probably will never be stopped. If these idiots want to whip something put them on the backs of their mothers.


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## Elf On A Shelf (22 March 2012)

shelbie said:



			too many people getting rich at the expense of the horse,
		
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Getting rich from racehorses?!?!? 

PAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA*TAKES A BREATH* AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh that's really tickled my funny bone that has! I like you! Your funny!


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## Milanesa (22 March 2012)

Ekw are you saying no one makes money out of horse racing? I would beg to differ on that. Many of the good horses win hundreds of thousands for their owners/ trainers no? Otherwise their would be no industry surely?


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## Kadastorm (22 March 2012)

EKW said:



			Getting rich from racehorses?!?!? 

PAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA*TAKES A BREATH* AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh that's really tickled my funny bone that has! I like you! Your funny! 

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this made me laugh, alot  

you will never be rich with any horse, let alone a race horse.


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## alliersv1 (22 March 2012)

shelbie said:



			If these idiots want to whip something put them on the backs of their mothers.
		
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?????

You haven't answered my question?


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## Miss L Toe (22 March 2012)

Milanesa said:



			Ekw are you saying no one makes money out of horse racing? I would beg to differ on that. Many of the good horses win hundreds of thousands for their owners/ trainers no? Otherwise their would be no industry surely?
		
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The industry [one of the top ten percent in the UK], is part of the leisure industry, no one would ever go in to it with a small amount of money, and make a fortune, it is the other way round,
Yes one horse per year wins the GN and £250K, [not all to the owner btw], The Late Lord Clark spent a large amount of money buying horses trying to win the GN, but failed, as most would do, 
Did you see one of Paul Nichols staff won a million by betting on five horses to win, in an accumulator, this is not a regular occurrence, or PN would have people queuing up to work there.
The lad is not leaving his job, he loves it, it is part of his psyche., when it was suggested he might buy a horse, he just laughed, not a thing any sane person would do!
I used to work in racing, and loved it, but I don't enjoy going racing as an owner, or as a spectator. it is horse for courses.


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## Miss L Toe (22 March 2012)

shelbie said:



			what a load of rubbish, raceing is a business not a hobby and as such the animals will always be the ones to suffer.you are not trying to tell me people arent in it for the money, .
		
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Strange to say, the people involved are in it because it is  "in their blood",  some like AP are driven to  "win" some like PN are driven to "train winners", some like the  Aga Khan are in it to breed winners.
People who want to make money can be identified by their wish to buy in to a syndicate, [maybe pay £100] and expect the trainer to tell them [and no one else] when the horse  WILL win.  as if.


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## Dobiegirl (22 March 2012)

Miss L Toe it was Nicky Hendersons lad that won that money, Im sure PN would have loved to have had all those winners at Cheltenham.

If only it was that easy to own a winning racehorse they cant all be winners and the owners do it for the love of the sport not to make money which is secondary.

once again we have people spouting on about something they know nothing about and spreading the rubbish to anyone willing to listen. Do the maths buy a racehorse, pay for its training,shoeing,vet,gallops etc and see how much it actually costs to get it to a racecourse.


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## Elf On A Shelf (22 March 2012)

Ok say you wanted a decent horse to see progress through the ranks and eventually win the Gold Cup or the Grand National you will be expecting costs of:

£50k for an untried 3-4yo with the breeding to do what you want.
£1.2-1.5k a month training   x10 for roughly the length of training for a season (lets say £1350 for middle ground)
Add on shoes at £60 a pop each month min.
Gallop fees of say £20 a month
So thats £63500 to buy your horse and for one seasons training.

Now for a Bumper horse you would run it maybe 3-4x a season at £20 an entry fee. You then have travel fees and lads expenses on top of that with would be around £300 for a localish track. If your lucky enough to win your average Bumper is worth between £1.5-2k to the winner. If you then go on to win a Champion Bumper at Aintree or Cheltenham then you win about £14k. By the time you take off the trainers, jockeys and staffs percentages of the win prize you are potentially left with £9k prize money - if you won everything.

Your horse is then put out on holiday for 2months. 

Back in work. 10months training - £13.5k 
Hurdle racing this time. With a VERY good novice you are looking at winning about £60-70k that season. But entry fees for the bigger races are more expensive and usually the traveling distance is further with overnight stays so your travel and lads expenses go up - say £700. So yes, your probably in pocket but only by about £20k THIS SEASON after the trainers, jockeys and staff percentages of the win prize are taken off.

Season 3 - Novice Chasing! This goes along the same lines as the above! You can win a fair bit but not excessive amounts.

Season 4 - Handicap Chasing! Now your talking! This is the big money game! If you have a horse good enough you could potentially win £150k before you go to Cheltenham. Finish the season with winning one of the big Handicaps at the Festival and you bag another £70-100k.

Season 5 - This is when you start thinking about Gold Cups and Nationals! And again, you could potentialy win £100-150k before Cheltenham. If you go down the Nationals route with the Welsh then either the Scottish or Irish then you can bag another £100k and IF you win the Gold Cup thats £250k.

Season 6 - Now your talking! Bring on all the BIG races! More prize money! Higher entry fees! Less races to run in! Culminating in the Grand National! Your horse is now 10years old. It wins the Grand National and some domestic Nationals/staying Handicaps and back you £500k.

Season 7 - Same as Season 6. Your horse is now 11.

Season 8 - Your horse is now 12 and if you haven't retired it then you are off out for your swansong year and go down the same routes as the previous 2 years.

Now that is all providing that you WIN every single race and you stay sound and have no vets fees yada yada! 

How many people is that realistically going to happen to?!?!?


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## minesadouble (22 March 2012)

Horses die racing, horses die in all forms of equestrian sport, horses die of neglect or ill-treatment, horses die through the well meaning ignorance of their owners. HORSES DIE.


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## minesadouble (22 March 2012)

shelbie said:



			what a load of rubbish, raceing is a business not a hobby and as such the animals will always be the ones to suffer.you are not trying to tell me people arent in it for the money, that they really love the horses , which is why they put their lives at risk by entering them in such races as "The grand national" too many people getting rich at the expense of the horse, which sadly is why it probably will never be stopped. If these idiots want to whip something put them on the backs of their mothers.
		
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Racing is probably the ultimate expensive hobby!! If I could persuade my other half that racing was a lucrative business we would have a string of the bloody things - unfortunately he has the tiniest modicum of intelligence that tells him it is not!


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## amage (22 March 2012)

EKW said:



			Ok say you wanted a decent horse to see progress through the ranks and eventually win the Gold Cup or the Grand National you will be expecting costs of:

£50k for an untried 3-4yo with the breeding to do what you want.
£1.2-1.5k a month training   x10 for roughly the length of training for a season (lets say £1350 for middle ground)
Add on shoes at £60 a pop each month min.
Gallop fees of say £20 a month
So thats £63500 to buy your horse and for one seasons training.

Now for a Bumper horse you would run it maybe 3-4x a season at £20 an entry fee. You then have travel fees and lads expenses on top of that with would be around £300 for a localish track. If your lucky enough to win your average Bumper is worth between £1.5-2k to the winner. If you then go on to win a Champion Bumper at Aintree or Cheltenham then you win about £14k. By the time you take off the trainers, jockeys and staffs percentages of the win prize you are potentially left with £9k prize money - if you won everything.

Your horse is then put out on holiday for 2months. 

Back in work. 10months training - £13.5k 
Hurdle racing this time. With a VERY good novice you are looking at winning about £60-70k that season. But entry fees for the bigger races are more expensive and usually the traveling distance is further with overnight stays so your travel and lads expenses go up - say £700. So yes, your probably in pocket but only by about £20k THIS SEASON after the trainers, jockeys and staff percentages of the win prize are taken off.

Season 3 - Novice Chasing! This goes along the same lines as the above! You can win a fair bit but not excessive amounts.

Season 4 - Handicap Chasing! Now your talking! This is the big money game! If you have a horse good enough you could potentially win £150k before you go to Cheltenham. Finish the season with winning one of the big Handicaps at the Festival and you bag another £70-100k.

Season 5 - This is when you start thinking about Gold Cups and Nationals! And again, you could potentialy win £100-150k before Cheltenham. If you go down the Nationals route with the Welsh then either the Scottish or Irish then you can bag another £100k and IF you win the Gold Cup thats £250k.

Season 6 - Now your talking! Bring on all the BIG races! More prize money! Higher entry fees! Less races to run in! Culminating in the Grand National! Your horse is now 10years old. It wins the Grand National and some domestic Nationals/staying Handicaps and back you £500k.

Season 7 - Same as Season 6. Your horse is now 11.

Season 8 - Your horse is now 12 and if you haven't retired it then you are off out for your swansong year and go down the same routes as the previous 2 years.

Now that is all providing that you WIN every single race and you stay sound and have no vets fees yada yada! 

How many people is that realistically going to happen to?!?!? 

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Ah when it all works out it seems so simple....think i'll print this off and pin it up in the four yr old's stable so he can see what the syllabus is!!


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## bubbilygum (22 March 2012)

You're neglecting to consider the status owning a racehorse brings, and how much business gan be garnered for businessmen by using their horse ownership to take clients to race meetings etc. I know of many racehorse owners who have them for this reason; £50k to secure £1m worth of business is a worthwhile investment.


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## amage (22 March 2012)

bubbilygum said:



			You're neglecting to consider the status owning a racehorse brings, and how much business gan be garnered for businessmen by using their horse ownership to take clients to race meetings etc. I know of many racehorse owners who have them for this reason; £50k to secure £1m worth of business is a worthwhile investment.
		
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Status owners in NH are rapidly on the decline!!!


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## Miss L Toe (23 March 2012)

bubbilygum said:



			You're neglecting to consider the status owning a racehorse brings, and how much business gan be garnered for businessmen by using their horse ownership to take clients to race meetings etc. I know of many racehorse owners who have them for this reason; £50k to secure £1m worth of business is a worthwhile investment.
		
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I think you will find buying a horse through a business is a way of getting in to horse ownership which is used by people in an already profitable business who can spend £50K without fear of running into receivership, unfortunately Jo Bloggs Limited will not be getting new customers with £1M contracts, this is a fairy tale! 
I have been on a "hospitality" visit to a racecourse, the company did not buy a horse, just booked a tent plus catering, it was all very unsatisfactory as one was expected to sip pink wine, nibble curly sandwiches and chat about PCB motherboards, which were all the rage at the time!


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## shelbie (23 March 2012)

alliersv1 said:



			]

stopping the breeding of these horses might be a good start. honestly how many thoroughbreds who dont make the grade end up on the knacker mans wagon. too many.existing horses could be re schooled and put into other disciplines. you are not trying to say all the horses stay in raceing for life, so what happens to them? I think the answer to that is pretty grim, yes the task would be enormous but not impossible and far more acceptable than watching these noble animals being beaten as they struggle to find the energy to make the finishing line.a sad and sickening sight for anyone with an ounce of compassion.
		
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## Elf On A Shelf (23 March 2012)

The ones that are struggling to find the energy to finish their races are pulled up. Why waste energy shoving a horse home that is knackered and is never going to get a place and earn any money?


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## Little Squirrel (23 March 2012)

shelbie said:



			what a load of rubbish, raceing is a business not a hobby and as such the animals will always be the ones to suffer.you are not trying to tell me people arent in it for the money, that they really love the horses , which is why they put their lives at risk by entering them in such races as "The grand national" too many people getting rich at the expense of the horse, which sadly is why it probably will never be stopped. If these idiots want to whip something put them on the backs of their mothers.
		
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My horse was 4th last week. I won £75 YAY I'm rich!! Seriously Shelbie look at the bigger picture. Only the very best horses at the biggest of race meeting's come close to making any significant money as EKW has already explained perfectly.

I do love the horses. I showjumped untill I was 19 but since I watched the Gold Cup in 1989 and I was 7 I wanted to train racehorses. I wasn't bred into it, I wasn't around it but that was all I ever wanted to do. I have had two horses die beneath me, one broke his leg and the other dropped dead while he was WALKING. I felt awful on both occassions, I blamed myself even though neither of the times it was my fault. The horse who broke his leg got kicked also WALKING down the road. I now train myself and you cannot imagine how ill I feel watching one of mine race but they enjoy it and why take that natural instinct away from a horse. If a horse looses it's bottle or doesn't want to do it believe me nobody is going to make them win anything. I adore my horses and they have the best care that I can give them, they have the best of everything and this means that I go without. I haven't had a day off since xmas day, I haven't bought new clothes or had a haircut for god knows how long, I'm up at 5.30 every morning and if a horse so much as farts wrong I know about it. Now if people who didn't have a dream and work bloody hard to achieve it like me don't love the horses along the way then I don't know who does. Sure I dream of having a National or gold cup horse but I know that this is a 1 in a million chance. I also know that one day sooner or later I will come home from the races without one, I dread that day but I would rather they go in a humane way while they are fit and healthy rather than suffer like my old boy did last year when age got the better of him.
 I also know first hand that there is a hell of alot more "persuasion" going on behind the scenes in big showjumping yards than racing yards but you obviously have your mind very firmly set.


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## Little Squirrel (23 March 2012)

As for the whipping you see more whip abuse at a pony show every weekend from spoilt brats taking out their non riding cappabilities on their ponies when they don't win. Just saying!


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## alliersv1 (23 March 2012)

shelbie said:





alliersv1 said:



			]

stopping the breeding of these horses might be a good start. honestly how many thoroughbreds who dont make the grade end up on the knacker mans wagon. too many.existing horses could be re schooled and put into other disciplines. you are not trying to say all the horses stay in raceing for life, so what happens to them? I think the answer to that is pretty grim, yes the task would be enormous but not impossible and far more acceptable than watching these noble animals being beaten as they struggle to find the energy to make the finishing line.a sad and sickening sight for anyone with an ounce of compassion.
		
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Do you know why the thoroughbred exists?
It was created to race.
I agree that there is overbreeding, but that is true throughout the horse world, not just the racing world, and is a problem that I can't see changing any time soon. 
While I too am unhappy that racehorses that don't make the grade/are surplus may be sent to a quick, humane end, I am also aware that there are much worse fates that befall horses every day, "rescued racehorses" included. I know a girl who has one. Pumped full of food, dosed down with calmers. Rugged up to the eyeballs all year round. Displaying classic signs of ulcers that she has no idea how to recognise. Goes around like an upside down giraffe when ridden. I expect he was happier while he was racing, and was managed correctly by people who could tell one end of a horse from another.



Little Squirrel said:



			As for the whipping you see more whip abuse at a pony show every weekend from spoilt brats taking out their non riding cappabilities on their ponies when they don't win. Just saying!
		
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Absolutely! At least in racing there are whip rules that are punishable if disobeyed. 
Shelbie. I use a racing whip in my day to day riding. It is so soft it's not true. Makes a fair thwack though!
		
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## Miss L Toe (23 March 2012)

shelbie said:





alliersv1 said:



			]

stopping the breeding of these horses might be a good start. honestly how many thoroughbreds who dont make the grade end up on the knacker mans wagon. too many.existing horses could be re schooled and put into other disciplines. you are not trying to say all the horses stay in raceing for life, so what happens to them? I think the answer to that is pretty grim, yes the task would be enormous but not impossible and far more acceptable than watching these noble animals being beaten as they struggle to find the energy to make the finishing line.a sad and sickening sight for anyone with an ounce of compassion.
		
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Shelbie, can we start with your grammar and punctuation, OK a bit pedantic, but this forum prides itself on such matters, there are other places where these things do not matter.
1] The breeding of horses...... should there be law against it? I assume it is only racehorses that concern you?
2] How many end up on the knackerman's wagon, sorry, I don't know. I assume most are casualties.
3] Which horses are beaten, can you give us an example in the last week?
4] Compassion, I think you need to look at recent welfare prosecutions before you start attacking a regulated industry.
		
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## dominobrown (23 March 2012)

People, the only way you can get a poster like shelbie to make any sense, is to send her to work in a racing yard for like a fortnight or something, and so she/he can see first hand what really happens, what its really like etc. I think it would do he/she a lot of good, and help her/him make a valid arguement instead of spouting a uneducated opinion plucked from thin air. I think it would do a lot of people a lot of good and help people see what racing is really like. Poor trainers having to put with someone like that though! 
Seriously though....
People who work with racehorse- There are a lot easier ways to make a lot more money than working with horses, in racing, or any other equestrian sport. The trainer, jockeys and stable staff deffo aren't there for the money only. They are there because they want to work with horses


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## shelbie (24 March 2012)

Thank you "LITTLE SQUIRREL" I appreciate you talking to me in a reasonable manner. I do understand abuse goes on , not just in raceing but in all walks of life where animals are concerned. This doesnt mean that I agree with it but I  do take your point.


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## Alec Swan (24 March 2012)

shelbie,

whether others want me to apologise on their behalf's,  I'm not sure,  but you have to understand that the bulk of those who've argued with you,  do so from the point of experience.  These people care passionately about their charges,  and to suggest that racing is _just about money_,  is entirely wrong.  It's also insulting,  to most.

Little Squirrel's last post,  but one,  summed up the passion,  the care,  and the sense of duty,  that others feel.  To tell these people that they are wrong,  and to suggest that they have no sense of duty towards their charges,  is quite wrong.

As another has suggested,  work within the industry,  and then you will have an opinion of worth.  I'm sorry,  but that's how it is.

Alec.


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## Fantasy_World (24 March 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			shelbie,

whether others want me to apologise on their behalf's,  I'm not sure,  but you have to understand that the bulk of those who've argued with you,  do so from the point of experience.  These people care passionately about their charges,  and to suggest that racing is _just about money_,  is entirely wrong.  It's also insulting,  to most.

Little Squirrel's last post,  but one,  summed up the passion,  the care,  and the sense of duty,  that others feel.  To tell these people that they are wrong,  and to suggest that they have no sense of duty towards their charges,  is quite wrong.

As another has suggested,  work within the industry,  and then you will have an opinion of worth.  I'm sorry,  but that's how it is.

Alec.
		
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Alec I have to agree with you as I have met some fantastic people in racing from jockeys, trainers, owners, head lads and grooms. Most of the people I have met have seemed to be very caring and compassionate towards the horses they are dealing with. However like in any other industry in which animals are used to try and make money or make a name for oneself there will always be people who really should not have any involvement at all with animals. It happens in racing just like in any other industry. However horse racing in the UK does have proper regulation both on the track and at the stables. Stables and premises are inspected and any wrong doings will be acted upon. Personally I would like to see this set up to do the same at livery yards and competition yards up and down the country. May just stop some people in their tracks 
What bothers me though in racing is what happens to horses leaving racing, being bred for it and those not good enough to race. Not enough is done in my opinion and these horses need a bigger voice than they have at present. There is sweeping under the carpet in the industry and this has to stop. While I don't appreciate deaths on a racetrack I would rather see more being done to help the horses mentioned above than more safety measures at the tracks. Accidents will happen whatever safety procedures you have in place. Could anyone have anticipated Wishfull Thinking falling and rolling under the rails and injuring a photographer at Cheltenham for instance? Of course they couldn't. 
However improved traceability of horses leaving the industry needs to be achieved. Owners should be made to pay into a fund that secures a home for life for their horse when it leaves racing, even if they have provisions in place. Proper regulation of passports and updating of horses entering another sphere or deceased, and make this information available to the public! I think the more the public knows the cleaner the industry will become. Breeding restrictions on horses. Only horses from certain pedigrees being allowed to breed or else ones who have achieved certain grades whilst racing. 
There is so much more to be done in the industry and it is far more important than moving fences/hurdles, watering tracks etc in my view. They are important, but we need to tackle the roots and ends in racing first to improve the stock we are allowing to enter racing, particularly in National Hunt where there are too many 'fragile' flat racing horses switching codes or being bred. The ends, ie where these horses end up and ensuring a good home or a dignified end if a good home cannot be sought and not just breeding horses for tins or zoos!!!!


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## shelbie (24 March 2012)

Thank you , Thank you FANTASY WORLD, At last someone with some sense, my sentiments entirely.


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## tristar (24 March 2012)

shelbie,  they have previously said,' if you don't like watching it, turn it off'!

thats the easy bit, to look the other way, but it takes courage to stand up and say it as you see it.

i think 'there's none so blind as those that don't want to see' when it comes to the overall carnage that happens in certain areas of horse racing, especially disposal and export of tb's for meat for example.

maybe most improvements in horse welfare have come about because someone, somewhere had the audacity to complain about things they did'nt consider to be humane.


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## Alec Swan (24 March 2012)

tristar said:



			.............
i think 'there's none so blind as those that don't want to see' when it comes to the overall carnage that happens in certain areas of horse racing, especially disposal and export of tb's for meat for example.

...........
		
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It seems to me that race horses are bred for one purpose and one only.  The odd failed horse will,  if it's female,  find a way into a life as a brood mare for sport horse breeding.  Regardless of gender,  the odd failed race horse will also be re-schooled and ridden out,  as a riding horse. Some,  but precious few,  with remarkable success. 

The above pitifully few TBs will be a minuscule proportion of the annually born foal quota.  What is to happen to the rest?  As I see it,  they are the residue of an industry,  which if public opinion would allow,  would accept that an instantaneous end to life would be the most humane and correct end.

The problem arises when the failures are offered onto the ridden market (and yes,  I've bought them),  at £500,  with tales that the horse actually owes someone £100k,  and the trainer or agent sees a quick half-a-k in it,  and these poor creatures end up in the most dire of homes with those who are completely out of their depth.  

Were I a failed TB,  I know what I'd prefer.

Alec.


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## tristar (24 March 2012)

mr Swan, if there is such a thing as re-incarnation and karma, i think you stand a good chance finding out in your next life!

i should have said LIVE export, to italy in a lorry with no partitions, i do apologise.


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## Fantasy_World (24 March 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			It seems to me that race horses are bred for one purpose and one only.  The odd failed horse will,  if it's female,  find a way into a life as a brood mare for sport horse breeding.  Regardless of gender,  the odd failed race horse will also be re-schooled and ridden out,  as a riding horse. Some,  but precious few,  with remarkable success. 

The above pitifully few TBs will be a minuscule proportion of the annually born foal quota.  What is to happen to the rest?  As I see it,  they are the residue of an industry,  which if public opinion would allow,  would accept that an instantaneous end to life would be the most humane and correct end.

The problem arises when the failures are offered onto the ridden market (and yes,  I've bought them),  at £500,  with tales that the horse actually owes someone £100k,  and the trainer or agent sees a quick half-a-k in it,  and these poor creatures end up in the most dire of homes with those who are completely out of their depth.  

Were I a failed TB,  I know what I'd prefer.

Alec.
		
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Alec, what is needed is more establishments to re-school ex racers. At the moment we have but a few to cope with the substantial amount of horses that leave racing. If the horses are properly re-schooled and matched up with the right owners then they will find good homes. However on the other hand you do not have to be a person with an immense schooling background to be able to get an ex racer backed and ridden. I may have ridden for a number of years but I am not the best schooled rider in the world and nor do I do much schooling with my horses. When I got my ex racer 3 years ago she was not in the best of condition but she had been a broodmare after racing on both codes so was not fresh from the track so to speak. I did lunging with her and a friend rode her and schooled her for me. This person although what I would say was a good rider was not someone who had been intensively schooled either and none of us had experience of ex racers. I don't ride my mare as someone else does but I do handle her, groom etc. The person that rides her is fairly new to riding only having learned when they met me. However they get on like a dream and and the mare can go very fast when she wants to. She has been to a ride where there were many horses and open fields and no mishaps. She does listen and does have good brakes. She can still fizz up, ie cantering on the spot, sideways, head shaking, bit crunching and so on. But her rider is able to be calm enough to understand what presses her buttons and knows when to ask her to go and when to slow down as boiling over.
I think where a lot of people go wrong with ex racers is that they see a chance to make a quick buck. A cheap horse, often looking in shape, if from the track. They then treat them as you would any other horse. With TBs and ex racers you cannot have that approach. You have to understand that these horses are trained to the minute and harness the flight response. Yes they are still a horse like any other but one must understand them a bit more and understand when the time is right to cease training or to switch them off. Some do need more time than others and having seen how some people break in and produce horses it is little wonder that many of them end up as nutjobs or get passed around later on. It all revolves around money, the less time someone has a horse the less it will cost and the more they can make. 
It has taken me over 2 years to fully understand my cob for instance. That is because he was not rushed and was allowed to finish maturing in his head and body. That I feel has paid off because I now have a horse I would not change for the world and love him to bits.
The TB has taken more time and I am still learning because she was never a one person horse and has done her fair share of racing before travelling around to various studs etc. She does seem to prefer men though I feel.
I think we often ask too much of our horses too quickly. I am not a competing person and that probably shows, but do I give a damn, no not really.
Don't get me wrong I love racing and have done for many, many years. However it does sadden me about what happens to the ones that leave racing, amongst others.
Perhaps it may be prudent to not allow the sale of ex racers at sales except for racing dispersal sales, store sales, youngstock etc. 
I have seen ex racers at Brightwells for instance at Leominster and they were cheap uns.
Perhaps there could be a licensing system for owners of TBs. Current owners and prospective owners need to have a special licence to own or buy one. If a fee is involved too then the fact you have to pay out before you can even go to buy a TB may stop people from buying that breed for the chance to make a quick buck.
I understand though that not all can be saved and many will still unfortunately have to be slaughtered as there will never be enough homes for all the horses, especially when you consider other horse breeds that are overbred which flood the horse market.
I think every riding school should have at least one ex racer, properly schooled to teach more riders about the breed so that they can then consider them as an option when they are looking to buy their own horse.
There should also be a licence for anyone to keep horses and people should have to pass a test, theory and practical to be able to loan or own a horse and pony, and should count across the whole board of horse owners, even those who use other people's land to dump their horses!


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## Elf On A Shelf (24 March 2012)

The next question would be - if everyone took on an ex-racer then who would buy the coloured cobs to ride? Surely these would then be on the next boat to nowhere?

It's a vicious circle but at least Racing takes account of it's rejects for the most part.


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## Echo Bravo (24 March 2012)

Oh Lordy Lordy!! Fanstay World yes in someways you are right,giving horses time, a lot of us oldies have been saying I don't know how many times,but very few people listen.There is wastage in horses,doesn't matter what they do,racing dressage,showjumping,showing, and the ordinary hacks.But if we had to prove by taking test that we were fit to look after animals then I think you should do the same if we would be fit to have children and I think everyone would fail.


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## Fantasy_World (24 March 2012)

EKW said:



			The next question would be - if everyone took on an ex-racer then who would buy the coloured cobs to ride? Surely these would then be on the next boat to nowhere?

It's a vicious circle but at least Racing takes account of it's rejects for the most part.
		
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Yes it does and I am not arguing with that. For someone who used to work in racing and see and hear a lot of things I have nothing but admiration for trainers, jockeys and stable staff. But I feel more should be done for ex racers and to keep tabs. There is a lot going on in the industry that the powers that be probably know about but do nothing about it. I cannot say anymore, but I just know believe me. 
The coloured cobs are already on a boat to no where. You only have to see what turns up at some of the lower end auctions to see that. 
A reduction in breeding across the board is what is needed. Stop breeding chaff!
My mare may have okish breeding on paper and was put to useful stallions but what she produced was chaff to be honest. Of those that lived one won a low grade race and a seller and the other had a couple of runs in bumpers and showed nothing.
There are many horses just like her being bred from day in day out and producing mediocre horses at best.
The same is true in the whole horse industry. Breeding from mares that are too old or from mares and stallions with faults or bad conformation. I am not discussing good breeders here but the chaff that is produced that floods the market.


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## Fantasy_World (24 March 2012)

Echo Bravo said:



			Oh Lordy Lordy!! Fanstay World yes in someways you are right,giving horses time, a lot of us oldies have been saying I don't know how many times,but very few people listen.There is wastage in horses,doesn't matter what they do,racing dressage,showjumping,showing, and the ordinary hacks.But if we had to prove by taking test that we were fit to look after animals then I think you should do the same if we would be fit to have children and I think everyone would fail.
		
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Well I am not an oldie Echo Bravo, but what I do have is common sense. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realise that with a lot of horses they need time and not to be rushed as all that ever results in is problems. The dealers that do this don't care as they are not there to pick up the pieces. The horse gets sold on and sold on and sold on. No wonder so many horses get wrecked and people have their confidence knocked. However there are also those who over exaggerate their own abilities and over horse themselves which is a lose lose situation. 
I understand there is wastage and will always be wastage as there are not enough homes to go around. However anything we can do to lessen those numbers has got to be a move in the right direction no matter what the equine discipline the horses have come from or been bred for.
I also agree with you about the kids too. They should raise the age for sex, driving and drinking too. Too many people are able to wreck too many lives at a young age. You can drive a car and kill someone at 17 and yet can't vote or have a bet in the Grand National until you are 18!
However having children is a learning curve and even someone who comes from excellent stock, has a lot of wealth, good jobs and a fancy house is no better at being a parent than your average single parent living in a council house. 
There is a wealth of help available to parents or would be parents via support groups, parenting groups, midwives, health visitors etc.
What practical support is there for your average horse owner besides a few horse care courses scattered around the country or BHS stages?
True you can read books, articles and pages on the internet but nothing prepares you for 'real' horse care until that grass breathing animal is pottering around in the stable in front of you or cantering around its field. That is when the true test begins. 
I do believe that many novice owners feel intimidated to ask for help from fellow liveries for example. I have seen it myself. People with not that much experience asking for help or someone telling them how it should be done and then being laughed about or talked about behind their backs. It is not on! We all had to start somewhere, even Priscilla with her 8 show ponies! 
Perhaps more own a pony days should be available at riding schools.
That is how I learned some of my skills such as grooming, mucking out, tacking up etc, the riding came with having been around and riding horses for 23 years before I had my horses.
I have learned a great deal since owning horses for what is now 6 years, but I have never been afraid to ask for help, but some people are.
There is never a clear black and white rule of how a horse should be kept, trained or ridden in my opinion. The only wrong doings in my view is if a horse is kept underweight/overweight, doesn't have its feet seen to properly or often enough, ridden when lame ( without pain relief or not been directed to by vet) unsuitable or ill fitting tack, not been groomed enough so that the horse gets girth galls etc, using dirty tack etc which is causing skin issues in the horse, riding a horse which you are clearly too heavy/big for and others. 
But I do think some horse owners lack clear common sense, even ones who should know better or portray a persona that they know a lot more than they actually do. 
Some of the things I have seen over the years 
There has to be something, anything in place to stop pure numpties from caring for horses.
If by making a course compulsary to gain a certificate/licence to care for/own a horse helps these people then it will get a big thumbs up from me


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## shelbie (25 March 2012)

TRISTAR, thank you, to you and to those who have spoken out on the horses behalf .You have restored my faith in human nature.


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## Over2You (25 March 2012)

EKW said:



			The ones that are struggling to find the energy to finish their races are pulled up. Why waste energy shoving a horse home that is knackered and is never going to get a place and earn any money?
		
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Countless horses have collapsed and died either before or after crossing the finishing line. Don't even try to say otherwise!!


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## Over2You (25 March 2012)

minesadouble said:



			Horses die racing, horses die in all forms of equestrian sport, horses die of neglect or ill-treatment, horses die through the well meaning ignorance of their owners. HORSES DIE.
		
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Horses die a damned site more often because of racing!!


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## Over2You (25 March 2012)

Miss L Toe said:





shelbie said:



*Shelbie, can we start with your grammar and punctuation, OK a bit pedantic, but this forum prides itself on such matters, there are other places where these things do not matter.*
1] The breeding of horses...... should there be law against it? I assume it is only racehorses that concern you?
2] How many end up on the knackerman's wagon, sorry, I don't know. I assume most are casualties.
3] Which horses are beaten, can you give us an example in the last week?
4] Compassion, I think you need to look at recent welfare prosecutions before you start attacking a regulated industry.
		
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Don't make me laugh! This forum does *not* pride itself for grammar and punctuation. In fact the whole site does not. I have seen many spelling mistakes in articles, and posts that might as well have been written in gobbledygook. The only forums I belong to that do encourage good spelling and punctuation in their rules are: DigitalSpy and the IMDb.
		
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## Over2You (25 March 2012)

dominobrown said:



			People, the only way you can get a poster like shelbie to make any sense, is to send her to work in a racing yard for like a fortnight or something, and so she/he can see first hand what really happens, what its really like etc. I think it would do he/she a lot of good, and help her/him make a valid arguement instead of spouting a uneducated opinion plucked from thin air. I think it would do a lot of people a lot of good and help people see what racing is really like. Poor trainers having to put with someone like that though! 
Seriously though....
People who work with racehorse- There are a lot easier ways to make a lot more money than working with horses, in racing, or any other equestrian sport. The trainer, jockeys and stable staff deffo aren't there for the money only. They are there because they want to work with horses 

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There might very well be people in racing who love horses, but I still (even after reading Little Squirrels post) cannot fathom how anyone would want to put their much loved animals at such high risk. Yes, there are some murky goings on in other horse sports, but some of them have at least made big safety modifications. In eventing, they have removed the steeple chasing, roads and tracks phases. Plus more and more fences are being built with frangible pins. In show jumping, the poles are lightweight and roll away easily thanks to the much flatter cups. You can say what you like, but there are far fewer deaths in every other horse sport. I am simply unwilling to accept that whatever good comes out of racing can outweigh the tremendous strain that horses are put under. Not to mention all the horses who have died.


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## Elf On A Shelf (27 March 2012)

Over2You said:



			There might very well be people in racing who love horses, but I still (even after reading Little Squirrels post) cannot fathom how anyone would want to put their much loved animals at such high risk. Yes, there are some murky goings on in other horse sports, but some of them have at least made big safety modifications. In eventing, they have removed the steeple chasing, roads and tracks phases. Plus more and more fences are being built with frangible pins. In show jumping, the poles are lightweight and roll away easily thanks to the much flatter cups. You can say what you like, but there are far fewer deaths in every other horse sport. I am simply unwilling to accept that whatever good comes out of racing can outweigh the tremendous strain that horses are put under. Not to mention all the horses who have died.
		
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It's their job! Soldiers get sent to war, they die. It's not nice, it's heartbreaking but IT'S THEIR JOB!


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## Alec Swan (27 March 2012)

I suppose that this argument eventually renders down to the point where there are those who want to change the world,  and those who don't want to be changed.

Those who would claim to act in a charitable or ethical manner,  seem to hold the moral high ground,  simply through their statement.  A statement whereby they claim to stand against injustice, immorality,  or cruelty.  The reality is that,  _though not always,  _those who act for the welfare camp haven't actually the faintest idea what they're talking about,  and steadfastly refuse to accept compromise,  or the fact that the questions regarding welfare *are *being dealt with .

Consider the new whip regulations in racing,  if you will.  New regulations have come about because of the bigoted and ignorant views of those with no experience,  but who would claim to act on behalf of race horses.  As with the hunting ban,  we are constantly told that it's what the public want.  Well that's a surprise,  isn't it,  considering the biased and distorted facts which have been fed to them?  The same can be said for the proposed badger cull,  and now I understand,  the Welsh Assembly,  through pressure brought about by those who are so ill informed as to be ignorant,  have now cancelled their plans.  All brought about by the ill-equipped and ill-informed,  good old Joe Public.

Alec.


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## Over2You (28 March 2012)

EKW said:



			It's their job! Soldiers get sent to war, they die. It's not nice, it's heartbreaking but IT'S THEIR JOB!
		
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You really must be grasping at straws to make such a ridiculous analogy. People enlist *knowing* they will be putting their lives on the line. Horses do not have a clue as to what could easily happen to them. It is an absolute disgrace that people still (in this day and age) get pleasure from watching a 'sport' in which animals regularly die. The majority of race goers only have one thing on their minds, and that is money! Horses suffer catastrophic injuries, yet the crowds continue to cheer, not giving a flying fig about the downed horses. It is sickening! Racing commentators hardly ever comment on the stricken horses either. I watched a replay of the race when Harry Handsome broke his leg. Not a single mention of the tragic sight he had just witnessed. Carried on commentating as if nothing had happened. The BBCs commentators were beyond reproach when they referred to the bodies on Ornais and Dooneys Gate as obstacles. When Hickstead collapsed in Verona, Peter Churchill was clearly overcome with emotion. Saying for goodness sake, dont show us it again when a replay of his collapse was shown.  There was also a great deal of compassion shown when G G Barock died at Hickstead.  When Sir Arkay died at HOYS in 92, the fence at which he fell was removed immediately. It was not left, so that more horses could die while attempting to jump it. Click here for an article regarding the tragedy.  No such modifications are made in racing! As for the new whip rules that were brought in months ago. My only guess is that jockeys were so worried about there being serious repercussions if they whipped their mounts over the finishing line, that they threw a tantrum about it, and the spineless BHA gave into them by relaxing the rules again. Do not tell me that racing is improving horse welfare. It clearly is not as horses are still suffering horrendous injuries and dying in their masses!


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## Over2You (28 March 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			I suppose that this argument eventually renders down to the point where there are those who want to change the world,  and those who don't want to be changed.

Those who would claim to act in a charitable or ethical manner,  seem to hold the moral high ground,  simply through their statement.  A statement whereby they claim to stand against injustice, immorality,  or cruelty.  The reality is that,  _though not always,  _those who act for the welfare camp haven't actually the faintest idea what they're talking about,  and steadfastly refuse to accept compromise,  or the fact that the questions regarding welfare *are *being dealt with .

Consider the new whip regulations in racing,  if you will.  New regulations have come about because of the bigoted and ignorant views of those with no experience,  but who would claim to act on behalf of race horses.  As with the hunting ban,  we are constantly told that it's what the public want.  Well that's a surprise,  isn't it,  considering the biased and distorted facts which have been fed to them?  The same can be said for the proposed badger cull,  and now I understand,  the Welsh Assembly,  through pressure brought about by those who are so ill informed as to be ignorant,  have now cancelled their plans.  All brought about by the ill-equipped and ill-informed,  good old Joe Public.

Alec.
		
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How *dare* you say that people who actually care about animal welfare are "bigoted" and "ignorant". I do hope that you are reincarnated as a racehorse or fox. Then, you will know what it is like to be ripped apart by hounds or to suffer a fatal fall in front of thousands of people who could not care less about your injuries. 

I have spent years researching racing and have yet to find a single aspect that I can admire and praise. 

As for the most recent rule changes regarding whips. They are a joke!


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## Mrs B (28 March 2012)

Over2You said:



			How *dare* you say that people who actually care about animal welfare are "bigoted" and "ignorant". I do hope that you are reincarnated as a racehorse or fox. Then, you will know what it is like to be ripped apart by hounds or to suffer a fatal fall in front of thousands of people who could not care less about your injuries. 

I have spent years researching racing and have yet to find a single aspect that I can admire and praise. 

As for the most recent rule changes regarding whips. They are a joke!
		
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If you were less anthropomorphic about animals, you might have a more balanced, credible view point and be taken more seriously.


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## Amymay (28 March 2012)

Over2You said:



			How *dare* you say that people who actually care about animal welfare are "bigoted" and "ignorant".
		
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I have to agree with Alec on this point.  I'm a huge welfare advocate (some might disagree).  But my knowledge is limited, and my viewpoint pretty rigid.  I would say that makes _me_ bigoted and ignorant, along with a lot of other people.




			I have spent years researching racing and have yet to find a single aspect that I can admire and praise.
		
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I don't believe you've spent years researching racing.  If you had your arguments would be more robust, less anthropomorphic and far more accurate.


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## Amymay (28 March 2012)

It is sickening! Racing commentators hardly ever comment on the stricken horses either.
		
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And of course, we know that's not true......


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## Dobiegirl (28 March 2012)

The number of horses that die on the racecourse is a drop in the ocean compared to the horses that die in transit  from Russia,Poland,Romania etc on their way to the slaughterhouse. Travelling for days with no food,water or rest is an absolute scandal so why dont I see Animal Aid doing their utmost to put an end to this evil trade? They would rather go for a soft target like racehorses which they see as belonging to the elite  of society.


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## Alec Swan (28 March 2012)

Over2You said:



			........ I do hope that you are reincarnated as a racehorse or fox.
..........
		
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Well there we are.  We have at least one thing in common,  because such an outcome would suit me very well! 

I'm grateful for your good wishes.

Alec.


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## dominobrown (28 March 2012)

Dobiegirl said:



			The number of horses that die on the racecourse is a drop in the ocean compared to the horses that die in transit  from Russia,Poland,Romania etc on their way to the slaughterhouse. Travelling for days with no food,water or rest is an absolute scandal so why dont I see Animal Aid doing their utmost to put an end to this evil trade? They would rather go for a soft target like racehorses which they see as belonging to the elite  of society.
		
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Well said, I believe that there is nothing wrong with death necessarily, it is a part of life, however it should be humane. When alive we should give the horse, or any animal the best possible life. The transport across Europe is unecessary in my eye. I would rather have a horse die on the racecourse compared to that.
Nobody chooses death, horses don't, but they can also choose not to race. Do you think a wild horse chooses to get eaten by lion/ wolf or whatever?


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## Elf On A Shelf (28 March 2012)

Over2You

Do you have ANY IDEA just how absolutely gutted and devistated the connections of Handsome Harry are?!?! And yes! They still are gutted! He was one of the yards pride and joys! Rose works bloody hard for each and every one of her horses and to lose one hits them all very hard indeed! 

No the commentators don't mention fatal falls AT THE TIME as in the split second they are viewing the race they don't know if it is merely winded or not. I happened to be at Sedgefield that day and about 15-20mins after the race an announcement was made over the tannoy to say that unfortunately Handsome Harry had an injury and had to be put down. The snipets you see on Racing Post and AtTheRaces really don't give you the full picture and if you expect an announcement mid-race or immediately after you are sadly very much mistaken. The horse has to be pronounced dead by the vets and certified. Then taken into the main building and that's before it get's anywhere near the commentators. 

If you had done all of this research into racing that you claim you have then you would have known this!

Over2You - I assume you follow eventing for that name - I actually can not believe how short sighted you are. You refuse to listen to reason and explanation because in your own head you are clearly right, always right, nothing will change that and everyone else is wrong - even when they know a damned sight more than you! So do us a fabour and put a cork in it! And trust me! That is really bloomin' polite considering what I would rather say - yup! You guessed it - stablestaff gutter talk


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## Alec Swan (28 March 2012)

EKW said:



			...........
Over2You - I assume you follow eventing for that name - I actually can not believe how short sighted you are. You refuse to listen to reason and explanation because in your own head you are clearly right, always right, nothing will change that and everyone else is wrong - ........
		
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O2Y,  I suspect that the poster means what they say.  I've no doubt,  what-so-ever,  that you care passionately about horses and their welfare,  but you really should make the effort to understand that you aren't alone,  others such as EKW,  who from what I've read of their posts,  speak with both passion and experience.  

I don't mean to be unkind,  but an ounce of experience is of more use than a pound of theory,  I've just decided!! 

Alec.


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## Echo Bravo (28 March 2012)

So in other words Shelbie,Fantasy world and Over2you are right and every racehorse and every other horse should be destroyed, that way no deaths on the racetrack,dressage,eventing and the ordinary hack,because they wouldn't exist. It's a shame they cann't put their passion for injustice for the poor bloody horses being transported hundreds of miles going for the dinner plate and are they bigoted? I say yes they are and shame on them. I wouldn't  have minded coming back as a fox onetime,but since Hunting been banned a lot round here have fox mange and they are the poor souls dying a slow and very itchy and painful death.So do I listen to these trolls. NO!!! As they don't listen to you.


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## Over2You (29 March 2012)

Echo Bravo said:



			So in other words Shelbie,Fantasy world and Over2you are right and every racehorse and every other horse should be destroyed, that way no deaths on the racetrack,dressage,eventing and the ordinary hack,because they wouldn't exist. It's a shame they cann't put their passion for injustice for the poor bloody horses being transported hundreds of miles going for the dinner plate and are they bigoted? I say yes they are and shame on them. I wouldn't  have minded coming back as a fox onetime,but since Hunting been banned a lot round here have fox mange and they are the poor souls dying a slow and very itchy and painful death.So do I listen to these trolls. NO!!! As they don't listen to you.

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Let me get this straight. Anyone who makes anti-racing posts is a troll? Pathetic! Do I want to see every horse on the face of the planet killed? No! The *fact* of the matter is that racing kills far more horses than any other horse sport, puts their fragile bodies under enormous amounts of strain, and not to mention the vast over-breeding and accompanying wastage. Those are the reasons why I want racing sent to the history books. Also, what makes you think that I (or anybody else who advocates against racing) do not sign countless petitions and donate to charities like World Horse Welfare in order to stop live transport? Oh, and a good lot of the horses that are sent overseas are failed/surplus racehorses! Sold to kill buyers by owners/trainers who could not care less about their fate! As for fox hunting. I am glad it was banned. It was cruel and barbaric. There are far more humane ways to control fox populations. Not a bunch of people on horses gallivanting around the countryside, taking great delight in seeing a fox torn to shreds by their hounds. Then, smearing the blood of the poor animal over the faces of those who have just witnessed their first kill. How can this be considered sport? Will I ever listen to somebody who wants such a disgusting spectacle to be legalised again? *NEVER!!*


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## Amymay (29 March 2012)

Over2You said:



			Oh, and a good lot of the horses that are sent overseas are failed/surplus racehorses! Sold to kill buyers by owners/trainers who could not care less about their fate!
		
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Are they?  Where did you get this little snippet of information from?


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## alliersv1 (29 March 2012)

amymay said:



			Are they?  Where did you get this little snippet of information from?
		
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All that extensive research 

I can't believe this is still rumbling on.


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## Over2You (29 March 2012)

EKW said:



			Over2You

Do you have ANY IDEA just how absolutely gutted and devistated the connections of Handsome Harry are?!?! And yes! They still are gutted! He was one of the yards pride and joys! Rose works bloody hard for each and every one of her horses and to lose one hits them all very hard indeed! 

No the commentators don't mention fatal falls AT THE TIME as in the split second they are viewing the race they don't know if it is merely winded or not. I happened to be at Sedgefield that day and about 15-20mins after the race an announcement was made over the tannoy to say that unfortunately Handsome Harry had an injury and had to be put down. The snipets you see on Racing Post and AtTheRaces really don't give you the full picture and if you expect an announcement mid-race or immediately after you are sadly very much mistaken. The horse has to be pronounced dead by the vets and certified. Then taken into the main building and that's before it get's anywhere near the commentators. 

If you had done all of this research into racing that you claim you have then you would have known this!

Over2You - I assume you follow eventing for that name - I actually can not believe how short sighted you are. You refuse to listen to reason and explanation because in your own head you are clearly right, always right, nothing will change that and everyone else is wrong - even when they know a damned sight more than you! So do us a fabour and put a cork in it! And trust me! That is really bloomin' polite considering what I would rather say - yup! You guessed it - stablestaff gutter talk 

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The commentator (during the race in which Harry Handsome died) could very easily have said what a shame it was to see him in such a state. A leg flapping about like that is a death sentence and the commentator would have known that full well. When the rest of the horses came round for a second time, and Harry Handsome was still hobbling about, he could have made some kind of compassionate comment. I guess that since horses dying on track is such a common occurrence that he did not think anything of it.

I am by no means stupid, but it doesn't take a member of MENSA to figure out why so many horses die in racing. Please tell me what the 'bigger picture' is. Could there be some highly complex reasons behind all the deaths in the racing industry? Please do me a favour and do not think I am intellectually challenged for seeing the bloody obvious! Also, before you get all high and mighty with me again, invest in a dictionary or download a spell checker!


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## Dobiegirl (29 March 2012)

If you had done your research you would realise that a lot of the horses that go to slaughterhouses abroad are draught horses, not stressy drop weight over night racehorses. They are looking for weight, no weight(meat) on a racehorse.

So perhaps you would answer a question for me, are you a member of Animal Aid?.


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## Amymay (29 March 2012)

Over2You said:



			The commentator (during the race in which Harry Handsome died) could very easily have said what a shame it was to see him in such a state.
		
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So you're using one example of a commentator that didn't comment on a fallen horse as a yard stick for all commentators?

You've also clearly done your homework about what the Make a Noise campaign is about too


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## Over2You (29 March 2012)

Dobiegirl said:



			If you had done your research you would realise that a lot of the horses that go to slaughterhouses abroad are draught horses, not stressy drop weight over night racehorses. They are looking for weight, no weight(meat) on a racehorse.

So perhaps you would answer a question for me, are you a member of Animal Aid?.
		
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Nope. I do support some of their work, though.  

Now, please answer my question. Are racehorses never sold to kill buyers?


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## Amymay (29 March 2012)

Over2You said:



			Now, please answer my question. Are racehorses never sold to kill buyers?
		
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Indeed some are sold to the abattoir.  Just like every other breed of horse in this country.

Your point?


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## Over2You (29 March 2012)

amymay said:



			So you're using one example of a commentator that didn't comment on a fallen horse as a yard stick for all commentators?

You've also clearly done your homework about what the Make a Noise campaign is about too

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Yes, I was using that as *one* example as it happened recently and is still available to watch on At the Races. There are numerous other examples of commentators failing to mention the tragic states of horses after sustaining horrendous injuries. Why don't you go over to Racing Post and At the Races to find that *fact* out for yourself!


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## Over2You (29 March 2012)

amymay said:



			Indeed some are sold to the abattoir.  Just like every other breed of horse in this country.

Your point?
		
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I was responding to a poster who didn't seem to think that racehorses are ever sold for meat. Given the sheer amount of unwanted racehorses, I think it would be fair to say that more of them go to the slaughterhouse than any other sport horse or breed.


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## Amymay (29 March 2012)

Over2You said:



			Yes, I was using that as *one* example as it happened recently and is still available to watch on At the Races. There are numerous other examples of commentators failing to mention the tragic states of horses after sustaining horrendous injuries. Why don't you go over to Racing Post and At the Races to find that *fact* out for yourself!
		
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I don't need to.  I watch quite a bit of racing on the TV, and like you hate to see a faller.  But am always pleased when it is reported either during or after the race (sometimes both) the outcome of the fall, whether good or bad news.  Thankfully it's usually better news, than worse.


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## Amymay (29 March 2012)

Over2You said:



			I was responding to a poster who didn't seem to think that racehorses are ever sold for meat. Given the sheer amount of unwanted racehorses, I think it would be fair to say that more of them go to the slaughterhouse than any other sport horse or breed.
		
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Actually the smallest fraction will be sold for meat (if at all) because they have no meat value coming straight out of racing.  The likelihood of them ending up overseas destined for the meat market is also very rare.  However, I would agree that one is one too many (of any breed from the UK).

It is a sad fact (I agree) that some will end up in UK abattoirs for rendering either post or prior to racing.  But it is a falicy to think that every TB rejected for racing ends up with a bullet in it's head - that is simply not true.  They have a market value that exceeds their meat value, and many go on to do worthwhile jobs outside of the industry.

At my previous yard we had a large amount of TB's - all ex-racers who had to some degree been rather successful on the track (I had one myself - an old steeplechaser).  Apart from mine, they had been placed in foster care with their rider by the owner(s) to ensure a long and happy retirement.  All turned their hand to almost any job given to them.  And all were geldings - the mare's having been retained.

At one point one or two of the horses had an enormous monetary value - even at retirement.  But the owners were keen to see them go on to do happy jobs, and were not looking to make any (more) money off them.

I hope that puts your mind at rest somewhat.


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## Dobiegirl (29 March 2012)

Amyway you answered that question very well and I hope it satisfies Overtoyou.

On the Racing Post site if you look up results and click on all comments on running it tells you exactly how each horse ran and if one died it will say fell fatal injury or pu fatal injury so not something that is not in the public domain. Racing has nothing to hide and all the racing Ive watched including all the Cheltenham Festival meeting the commentators do say when a horse is fatally injured.


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## Elf On A Shelf (29 March 2012)

Considering that OverTheTop has sunk down to the levels of instructing me to get a dictionary or a spell checker I am retiring from this conversation to go and research spelling, how to form words and sentences and to invest all of my spare time and resources into doing just that! Learning, listening to people who have a clue. Oh and if I heard the commentator annouce that my horse was dead before I got to it I would string him up alive. Sometimes those of us who put our hearts and souls into making our horses the best they can be just want a few moments of peace and quiet to see things through to the end.


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## Dobiegirl (29 March 2012)

EKW take no notice of o2y its a sure sign someone is losing the argument when they bring up and highlight other peoples spelling errors. Anyway since when has spelling been part of horse care.


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## Honeylight (29 March 2012)

Over2You said:



			You really must be grasping at straws to make such a ridiculous analogy. People enlist *knowing* they will be putting their lives on the line. Horses do not have a clue as to what could easily happen to them. It is an absolute disgrace that people still (in this day and age) get pleasure from watching a 'sport' in which animals regularly die. The majority of race goers only have one thing on their minds, and that is money! Horses suffer catastrophic injuries, yet the crowds continue to cheer, not giving a flying fig about the downed horses. It is sickening! Racing commentators hardly ever comment on the stricken horses either. I watched a replay of the race when Harry Handsome broke his leg. Not a single mention of the tragic sight he had just witnessed. Carried on commentating as if nothing had happened. The BBCs commentators were beyond reproach when they referred to the bodies on Ornais and Dooneys Gate as obstacles. When Hickstead collapsed in Verona, Peter Churchill was clearly overcome with emotion. Saying for goodness sake, dont show us it again when a replay of his collapse was shown.  There was also a great deal of compassion shown when G G Barock died at Hickstead.  When Sir Arkay died at HOYS in 92, the fence at which he fell was removed immediately. It was not left, so that more horses could die while attempting to jump it. Click here for an article regarding the tragedy.  No such modifications are made in racing! As for the new whip rules that were brought in months ago. My only guess is that jockeys were so worried about there being serious repercussions if they whipped their mounts over the finishing line, that they threw a tantrum about it, and the spineless BHA gave into them by relaxing the rules again. Do not tell me that racing is improving horse welfare. It clearly is not as horses are still suffering horrendous injuries and dying in their masses!
		
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Where I agree with you about the role of some commentators I think you are wrong to suggest that all racegoers are hard hearted money obsessed bettors who do not care about the welfare of horses. When a horse has been down at the races (I have been to) I have noticed many racegoers trying to see what was happening (not in a ghoulish way) but to see if the horse is OK. There is always a cheer when a horse gets to its feet.


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## Echo Bravo (29 March 2012)

Well I think O2U will never listen,what any one of us have to say, as we I think are the Demons she wants rid off, because we don't agree with the rubbish she spouts. must tell my next door neighbour that she's crap as she's got a racehorse that she bought as a 2 year old, small stress fracture to his off hind at 4,rested,went back into training, but never as good, so retired and he's now 23 and doing well and rules the roost, poor bugger, should he have been shot for meat.


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## Dab (29 March 2012)

Over2You said:



			Do I want to see every horse on the face of the planet killed? No!
		
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Why not?? O2Y where and how do you draw the line in terms of banning horse sports or ownership?
Are you saying that because x number of horses die in racing it should be BANNED? Or are you saying as a percentage of horses in training that die, as compared to other disciplines, is too high, therefore horse racing should be BANNED?
Is one death per 1000 too many or 20 per 1000 to many?
What is your cut off point for determining how many deaths is too many? And what is your justification for that figure?
It seems that you are only focussing on disciplines where horses are in high- level competition. Or have you considered the 1000s of horses that fall outside of this sphere but end up being dumped, mistreated, neglected, ruined, over fed, under fed, past from pillar to post, relegated to the scrap heap by ignorant owners, over breeding of cobs and some natives leading to abandonment. 1000s of horse deaths occur directly or indirectly in this manner therefore how can you only point the finger and cry for a ban to Horse Racing and not all horse ownership?  
The problem with imposing any sort of ban is where and how do you draw a line as to what is and is not acceptable in terms of the number of deaths or standards of welfare. By calling for a ban to Horse Racing you are tarring all in that industry with the same brush rather than regulating and raising standards of the few who may fall short. 
What are your thoughts on the huge number of horse owners who fall woefully short in terms of providing adequate welfare standards for their horses? [And you could go as far as to say that if you do not provide a home for life, with high welfare standards you are falling short] Under the same premise, that you have applied to Horse Racing does that mean that all horse owners should be tarred with the same brush and all horse ownership BANNED?
Do you think that your call for a ban on Horse Racing is fuelled by a complete dislike for the sport, or solely on welfare issues? If it is the latter, how can your view on banning be so narrow and focussed only on Horse Racing, and if it is the former..


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## Alec Swan (30 March 2012)

Dab,

to date,  and for me,  the post of the year.  I fail to see how anyone could contradict your argument.  Well said.

Alec.


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## emma.is (30 March 2012)

such a shame.


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## Mrs B (30 March 2012)

Fantasy_World said:



			Pardon!!!
IF YOU ARE GOING TO TRY AND COMMENT ON WHAT I SAID THEN SAY IT BLOODY RIGHT.
RE-READ MY POSTS AND SEE WHERE I SAID ANYTHING THAT LED YOU TO ASSUME THE ABOVE
A-R-S-E-H-O-L-E!!!!!
		
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Ah yes. Shouty rants and insults will get you and whatever your  'cause' is taken so seriously.


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## rhino (30 March 2012)

Mrs B said:



			Ah yes. Shouty rants and insults will get you and whatever your  'cause' is taken so seriously.
		
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Oh dear, looks like FW is having a little holiday to reconsider her attitude


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## Dab (30 March 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			Dab,

to date,  and for me,  the post of the year.  I fail to see how anyone could contradict your argument.  Well said.

Alec.
		
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 thanks


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## Echo Bravo (30 March 2012)

DAB,what a great reply and such a sensible one,but people like O2U, have their own agenda and sensible people don't come into it. To be honest I really think they are Anti-Horse


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