# Other liveries interfering on DIY



## MaeBee93 (13 November 2016)

so to give you some background I've got two mares, one massively fat cob x and the other a tb I've had for a month who came V underweight and cribs so struggles eating out of a hay net. The cob has cost in excess of £10,000 in vets fees this year due to problems with neck and back and therefore also is not fed via a haynet (vets strict advice). I personally like well looked after semi deep litter straw beds as not able to afford to rubber mat the whole stable. Due to time i muck out in the evenings rather than the morning which means some days they look fairly dirty during the day especially if they've been kept in. I'm also 37 weeks pregnant so I'm awake at all early hours and sometimes go to the horses as early as 5 AM and then again in the afternoon about 5-6pm, which means if they are being kept in they can be in for upto 12 hours between hay. (for this they will get hand grazed/walked/turnout in lunge pen) The reasons they stay in are if 1) its been frosty as the cob ends up with a major lami bout 2) its very wet as both horses get MF v easily AND our paddock is to last all year so to avoid poaching they don't go out and last 3) the TB won't go out in V cold days as she's happy to stay in and stuff her face instead which with her current weight is good. TB is on two high fibre no molasses hard feeds per day to help with weight gain at the same time as trying to combat confirmed ulcers. the cob gets a handful of chaff to keep her quiet while tb eats. neither are in work due to pregnancy and the tb has got a long way before she gets touched with tack.

Right so this week we've had terrible rain and found both my stables drip however to fix, the horses need to be out for upto a week so I'm just going to have to get over it and crack on for now. This means my beautiful semi deep litter beds have gone to ***** and I'm going to have to revert back to full muck outs. This week there was also a delay in muck trailer being taken so it is currently full but still got a few more days left before it goes, so I'm digging out a few barrows a day. like I've said its been heavy rain all week so the horses have been in so the beds look terrible until i muck them out again. because both horses get fed hay on the floor they tend to eat it really quick and then eat any good straw they haven't destroyed until the next hay time. during the week I've found my hay supply has been used V quickly and i ran out of hay with the last lot being used on the friday night and another delivery not due until the sunday. Due to rain they couldn't go out again on the saturday and due to having no hay left they were fed hay replacer (plenty of it) the rain stopped and they have been rugged up and thrown out for the night until the hay gets delivered the next morning. I like to keep myself to myself but if anyone was to ask i would be happy to tell them what my plan was. YM is very understanding and trusts that at no point are my horses being starved ect.

So what am I mad about

3 liveries have taken it upon themselves today to turn the tb out in the wet for a few hours at lunch, put haynets up for both horses and give hard feed to the tb and dig up one of my deep litter beds (but then just leave it if you get me), when I walk on the yard call me disgusting, horse abuser, I'm starving the tb ect. I have barely spoken to these people since moving on but they've always give me dagger eyes and the like. Im so mad!!! how dare they! but what do i do? what do i say? what if they continue going in my horses stable. I do things my way and they keep ruining everything.


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## Achinghips (13 November 2016)

You contradict yourself a bit, so it's hard to offer you advice or solace. You say you go up at 5 am, but don't muck out until 5pm.   Does that mean your horses are stood in for 24 hours or for 12 hours without mucking out?
How much turnout are they actually getting per week?
Are your horses in for 12 hours with one Haynet at a time?
What are you feeding the skinny Tb?
Are you addressing the cribbing behaviour, do you think?
Are they being worked at all?


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## Leo Walker (13 November 2016)

I'd go bat poo mental!! I am obsessed with managing my cob properly, but its not to most peoples liking. He has ad lib forage as he eats mainly straw, for a very good reason. I know pretty much the entire yard thinks hes being border line abused. Hes not! If anyone ever dared to  feed him anything else forage wise, never mind feed wise I wouldnt be held responsible for my actions!! 

Everyone is entitled to an opinion and I am always happy to talk to people about his issues and why I do what I do with him, and hear what they think and why. Thats fine, what is not fine is feeding him/turning him out or basically touching him in any shape or form other than a fuss over the door! 

I'm moving mine at the end of the month, not because of any failings in the YO or because of other liveries, but just because hes come down with lammi and hes at a riding school. Hes just started kicking at the door everytime he sees someone walk past which tells me he has been fed treats in the past and is now effectively begging. The YO is pretty hot on people patting and feeding treats to liveries, but is niggling at me and I cant risk it.

Honestly, just move and do it now! If you are on a yard where people think its ok to do that then it wont change


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## LadySam (13 November 2016)

I'd take it up with the YM first.  I assume they are on site all the time so should see if someone else was in your stable, feeding or turning out your horses.  It's a DIY yard, not a free for all.  If someone is doing something they shouldn't be with someone else's horses, the YM or other professional staff should be stepping in and telling them to stop.  At the very least, there should be a general reminder given to all liveries that other people's horses are none of their business.

Another reason the YM should be told is that if anything bad happens to your horses because of the actions of another livery that they should have prevented, I would imagine the insurance consequences could be pretty bad.  Apart from the welfare issues (and the fact that unwanted meddling is really annoying), these liveries could potentially be putting the yard at financial risk by acting without authority.  YM should really know about that.


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## ihatework (13 November 2016)

From what you are describing your facilities and management for me are sub optimal.

That said they are your horses to manage as you see fit. 

It doesn't surprise me DIY liveries have stepped in, they shouldn't have mind. In this situation I think you need to deal directly with the YO - tell them no livery is to interfere with your horses, if anyone needs to step in it is the YO alone


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## be positive (13 November 2016)

LadySam said:



			I'd take it up with the YM first.  I assume they are on site all the time so should see if someone else was in your stable, feeding or turning out your horses.  It's a DIY yard, not a free for all.  If someone is doing something they shouldn't be with someone else's horses, the YM or other professional staff should be stepping in and telling them to stop.  At the very least, there should be a general reminder given to all liveries that other people's horses are none of their business.

Another reason the YM should be told is that if anything bad happens to your horses because of the actions of another livery that they should have prevented, I would imagine the insurance consequences could be pretty bad.  Apart from the welfare issues (and the fact that unwanted meddling is really annoying), these liveries could potentially be putting the yard at financial risk by acting without authority.  YM should really know about that.
		
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While I agree with the above, I also agree with the quote below, as a YO I would be stepping in as I don't think your care is adequate, chopping and changing routine will contribute towards ulcers, not having enough hay in to feed for 48 hours is not good management, the lack of mucking out would not bother me so much but on my yard if a horse is stood in all day I expect it to have ad lib hay, obviously there are exceptions but yours are not being dieted for welfare reasons.

The other liveries should not interfere but I can see why they have and they did it with the best of intentions.

I am sorry the yard is not really working out for you, as you are pregnant would it not be best to find somewhere more suitable where the turnout is better, the stable does not leak and if they need to come in early or go out later someone can do this for you, keeping them in 24/7 is not ideal especially so early into the winter, most of mine are out all day, the others are still out 24/7 until the weather gets worse. 





ihatework said:



			From what you are describing your facilities and management for me are sub optimal.

That said they are your horses to manage as you see fit. 

It doesn't surprise me DIY liveries have stepped in, they shouldn't have mind. In this situation I think you need to deal directly with the YO - tell them no livery is to interfere with your horses, if anyone needs to step in it is the YO alone
		
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## conniegirl (13 November 2016)

Sorry but if i were a yo then id be asking you to leave. Horses having no hay for 48hrs is not acceptable, if you run out you go get more, even if it costs you a fortune for a bale or 2 to last.

The not mucking out wouldnt normally be a huge problem, except you are on straw and your roof leaks so your horses will be standing in sodden bedding all day. Also sodden straw is awful for giving off amonia which is very bad for your horses lungs!

The not feeding enough hay during the day would be the biggest problem for me. You are contributing to the ulcer problem, your mare needs adlib haylege, your cob may need restricting to lose weight but feeding adlib 2yr old hay is better than not enough. Also there are options for slowing down greedy pigs that dont include hanging haynets.

So no the other DIYers shouldnt interfere but i can see why they would and if it is bad enough for 3 of them to interfere as a YO id be having words with you


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## amybyersx (13 November 2016)

I would move. I had the exact same issue on my previous yard because last winter, my horses had to stay inside through the week, out at weekends. At the time, this was the best and safest descion for both myself and my horses as my tb had become dangerous to lead among many other things. I also have a pony who is lamanitic. Liveries would b**** and scream at me, calling me a bad owner, even though they were in a routine, they had hay and were fat as butter. My friend, who was helping me out last winter caught several liveries in my stables with my horses, interferring, even though there was no need. They always had hay, water, two feeds, thick straw beds and a walk/fuss everyday and obviously, they would still be turned out twice a week.  It died off when the horses were turned out for summer but i was terrified ready for winter, not just of my tb's dangerous antics but of the nasty liveries. I ended up biting the bullet and moved them and honestly, it has been the best thing i've ever done. I'm now on a small private yard with only two other liveries(4 other horses) and my tb has chilled out completely. Now walks to and from the gield like a dobin and is back to the way he was when we bought him. My only thinking is that the yard itself was stressing him out, causing him to lash out, be terrified and cause drama. I am now able to turn them both out without issue and they are out from 6am-4pm. No matter the routine at my old yard, in 24/7, out 24/7, half and half, he was still dangerous so i'm over the moon. Find yourself a new yard with better people and you will see a dramatic change not only in yourself, but in your horses. Since you are pregnant too, maybe think about getting a sharer or even just a helper for your horses. Good luck!


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## D66 (13 November 2016)

I think you need some short term help, either get a freelance groom, or go assisted DIY, even if you have to move yards. Having a new baby isn't going to make the job any easier, in fact I'd go as far as saying you should consider reducing numbers. 
Have you thought about your horse budget after the baby is born?
Good luck with both the horses and the baby.


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## Nudibranch (13 November 2016)

While I would also be annoyed at people interfering, your post is a bit confusing and the management of the horses doesn't sound as good as it could be. It reads as though they are standing in a lot, and without forage a lot, both of which are not good for them. I'd want them out a lot more for their own physical and mental health; if the current setup isn't allowing that then I'd be moving.

I have to admire your energy - there's no way I could have dealt with mucking out that late in my pregnancy! Can I ask how you will manage them once baby arrives? I had to have a bit of help at first, and mine are out 24/7 at home! I cannot imagine to do stabled horses at a yard....


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## twiggy2 (13 November 2016)

Other liveries should not interfere but with the care that you describe the YO should.
A skinny TB should not ever run out of hay, other horses should not have longer than 4 hrs without access to forage, if you run out of hay you go get more, YO should sort leak out, horses should be muck out at least twice a day if they have to be in 24hours.
For me keeping a horse in a stable for 24hrs is no different to keeping a dog on a crate for the same amount of time and is not acceptable. 
The fact that you are pregnant does not change the fact you have a responsibility of care to the horses however hard it is you need to make sure they are provided for.


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## Pinkvboots (13 November 2016)

I don't think your management sounds ideal for them and it sounds like you struggling so in your shoes I would find a different yard with better turnout or get some help with mucking out and general care, or another option is find somewhere they can live out while you are pregnant to take the pressure of?


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## scats (13 November 2016)

The liverys should not have interfered and I can fully understand why you are annoyed, however, I do find your management for your horses rather odd and I believe there are more efficient ways to deal with the skinny TB.  This doesn't mean a livery should have stepped in but to be perfectly honest, if I was a fellow livery, I might have had a quiet word with the YO to voice my concerns.

You are obviously very heavily pregnant and I imagine it must be pretty hard work for you right now and perhaps only going to get harder when baby is born?  Perhaps a change of yard might be better- part livery or assisted DIY to help you out?


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## SusieT (13 November 2016)

You horse management leads a lot to be desired. 
standing in 24/7 is no good for any horse especially if not being worked
hay replacer because you ran out of hay? That's quite poor management.
Sounds like you maybe only muck out once a day? sorry if the horses are in they need doing minimum 2-3 times daily.
I can understand why other liveries are frustrated although it is not their perogative to interfere- they should have contacted ym first.


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## amybyersx (13 November 2016)

In all fairness, as much as i disagree with liveries interferring as i've had to deal with it myself, you do need to manage your horses slightly better or at least get some help. Your horses need to be mucked out more than once a day if they are standing in all day as that is how horses get canker, stiffness and a multitude of other things. Please, move yards if you cant deal with the interference and get some help, even if it's just someone else popping down once a day to give food and do an extra muckout.


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## Theocat (13 November 2016)

The other liveries should have gone to the YO - but it really sounds as though you're not coping. 

Ideally, you need to move to a yard where daily turnout can be guaranteed.  You need to feed sufficient hay (very poor quality, or even part straw, to the cob) so that they don't run out. If they're ever in 24 hours, they need mucking out twice, with skips outs as required to keep on top of it.

I think you need to consider whether this is doable for you- especially pregnant, and later with a baby. It sounds as though you need regular (daily) assistance, if not part livery, and come to an arrangement so that the YO supplies forage and you don't run out. 

Everyone has times in life when they struggle.  This is just a time when you're either going to need help, or reconsider whether you can realistically cope with the horses full stop. Best to make changes now rather than waiting until you're really struggling


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## Achinghips (13 November 2016)

Why did you buy another horse, and a skinny Tb at that, going into winter a month before you're due to give birth? Also, looking at some of your other posts, aren't you running a freelance business and also about to start a degree ? 

Other liveries are interfering because they're concerned about what they are seeing and are feeling frustrated and helpless and desperate as YO isn't doing anything. 
Your current management will, without a doubt, give you big vet bills on top of all this. Your cob has severe arthritis doesn't she? She needs to be out and probably needs some form of medication to help her over winter. A Tb is a supreme athlete and needs turnout too, even if in at night. The cribbing hasn't stopped and there are probably worsening or developing stomach ulcers ..... I think you need to sell up or turn out well rugged with some big round bales in the field.  You need to reduce your load at this time in your life and look after yourself.


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## MaeBee93 (13 November 2016)

Achinghips said:



			You contradict yourself a bit, so it's hard to offer you advice or solace. You say you go up at 5 am, but don't muck out until 5pm.   Does that mean your horses are stood in for 24 hours or for 12 hours without mucking out?
How much turnout are they actually getting per week?
Are your horses in for 12 hours with one Haynet at a time?
What are you feeding the skinny Tb?
Are you addressing the cribbing behaviour, do you think?
Are they being worked at all?
		
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5am I will feed and turnout if the reasons stated don't prevent me from doing so. If they stay in they get a massive pile of hay re freshed waters but because of time they won't get mucked out until I'm back on the evening about 5pm where they will be fed hayed watered and mucked out. I do have a job and uni to do during the day.

Turnout will depend on the reasons stated some times they can go out from 5-5 one day and other days have to stay in. It's not ideal but that is the best I've got without ruining summer turnout.

As already stated and the reasons why, they both DO NOT get hay nets they get a waist high pile on the floor.

The tb is on two hard feeds per day and a massive pile of hay like previously stated. This post is not discuss my feeding regime as that has been discussed with a vet and a nutritionist.

Addressing the cribbing behaviour? Again not relevant to the post. But yes I am.

Again as stated neither are being worked due to being 37weeks pregnant and the tb being too poor ATM to even consider lunge work.


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## SusieT (13 November 2016)

24 hours without mucking out - that's not an acceptable level of care. That's why the beds are a mess. IT takes ten minutes to do a quick muck out on a proper deep litter bed. 
Earlier you said they eat their hay wuickly - now you say they dont?


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## MaeBee93 (13 November 2016)

conniegirl said:



			Sorry but if i were a yo then id be asking you to leave. Horses having no hay for 48hrs is not acceptable, if you run out you go get more, even if it costs you a fortune for a bale or 2 to last.

The not mucking out wouldnt normally be a huge problem, except you are on straw and your roof leaks so your horses will be standing in sodden bedding all day. Also sodden straw is awful for giving off amonia which is very bad for your horses lungs!

The not feeding enough hay during the day would be the biggest problem for me. You are contributing to the ulcer problem, your mare needs adlib haylege, your cob may need restricting to lose weight but feeding adlib 2yr old hay is better than not enough. Also there are options for slowing down greedy pigs that dont include hanging haynets.

So no the other DIYers shouldnt interfere but i can see why they would and if it is bad enough for 3 of them to interfere as a YO id be having words with you
		
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I'm sorry I think you have missed the point. Neither of these horses have ever been left without hay until one morning where they were given lots of forage replacer in the morning to last the day instead and then turned out that night.

 She most certainly will not be getting hay ledge as the vet has said that will make it worse! 

Our muck heap has not been emptied for over a week and you cannot physically fit more on so therefore they've been getting skipped out and fresh straw placed on top which by the next evening is looking gross. Plus they were on deep litter beds but when the rain started it was clear I needed to empty the lot start again and do full muck outs each day instead. It would of been done the same night however like stated the muck heap has not been emptied and therefore we have an entire yard of horses with owners who can't muck out as they have nowhere to put their muck.

I am not here to discus my horses feeding regime which has been dictated and managed by a vet and a nutritionist.

By the sounds of it, it's a bloody good job your not a YM or YO as you clearly lack the ability to read and just jump the gun with a rubbish attitude.


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## ycbm (13 November 2016)

I'm sorry but it isn't acceptable for a stabled horse not to 'work'. Even if it's as thin as a rake, if it can't go out in a field it needs taking out for a walk like a dog for at least an hour. There is no excuse, I'm afraid, for any horse to be stabled 24 hours a day unless on box rest. You've known for a long time now that you weren't going to be able to ride and you should have made other arrangements to get your horses out of their boxes. I'm not the slightest bit surprised that other liveries are upset with the way you are managing your horses and have interfered.


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## ester (13 November 2016)

If the TB is running out of hay and eating bedding as you previously stated that pile of hay is not massive enough. 

This post was not about nutritional advice no, but it was about other liveries interfering. If your horses are standing in for 24 hours, even only on occasion without being skipped out, even if they were the tidiest of horses I would have interfered too, sorry whatever the situation that is substandard care and if you don't have time to do it then you should pay a freelancer.


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## TuscanBunnyGirl (13 November 2016)

twiggy2 said:



			horses should be muck out at least twice a day if they have to be in 24hours.
For me keeping a horse in a stable for 24hrs is no different to keeping a dog on a crate for the same amount of time and is not acceptable. 
The fact that you are pregnant does not change the fact you have a responsibility of care to the horses however hard it is you need to make sure they are provided for.
		
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Erm...I love you  haha I often say to people about keeping horses in using the dog/crate analogy and they often look at me like I'm crazy. Totally totally a million percent agree with everything you have said here.

OP, I know it might be hard but your horses should really be receiving a better level of care, no excuses. If you can't provide for them perhaps it's time to sell or loan? :/


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## MaeBee93 (13 November 2016)

D66 said:



			I think you need some short term help, either get a freelance groom, or go assisted DIY, even if you have to move yards. Having a new baby isn't going to make the job any easier, in fact I'd go as far as saying you should consider reducing numbers. 
Have you thought about your horse budget after the baby is born?
Good luck with both the horses and the baby. 

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Thanks I've got a group of friends on the yard who I can call for help if I can't get down for anything etc. In fact they gave me the forage replacer for the morning. It's 3 liveries who have been causing havoc with everyone else that's the problem.  my budget is fine and have plenty aside to care for my horses and my child (living at home helps &#128540 I also have a job and I'm a uni student hence why horses are done so early and late it's just personal circumstance. The horses want for nothing and ideally yes drier land for turnout would make it easier but unfortunately all yards in the area suffer the same problem. Some yards have closed turnout until Feb now &#128533;


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## TuscanBunnyGirl (13 November 2016)

MaeBee93 said:



			By the sounds of it, it's a bloody good job your not a YM or YO as you clearly lack the ability to read and just jump the gun with a rubbish attitude.
		
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I totally get where she's coming from and I am a YM and YO...own 6 and have 2 full liveries and 1 DIY, their beds are immaculate, adlib hay, nothing is obese/skinny, everywhere is clean, hygienic and tidy- there is no excuse. No way would I allow someone on my yard that couldnt look after their animals properly. If you can't cope, don't have.


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## MaeBee93 (13 November 2016)

Nudibranch said:



			While I would also be annoyed at people interfering, your post is a bit confusing and the management of the horses doesn't sound as good as it could be. It reads as though they are standing in a lot, and without forage a lot, both of which are not good for them. I'd want them out a lot more for their own physical and mental health; if the current setup isn't allowing that then I'd be moving.

I have to admire your energy - there's no way I could have dealt with mucking out that late in my pregnancy! Can I ask how you will manage them once baby arrives? I had to have a bit of help at first, and mine are out 24/7 at home! I cannot imagine to do stabled horses at a yard....
		
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Unfortunately where I am a lot of yards have shut turnout for winter completely :-( I'm on one of the few yards that still have horses out at all. If it's wet they stay in that's the rule and this past week it's rained everyday. However next week could be very different they could be out 12 hours a day next week! I have lots of friends and family who will help me when baby arraives And other liveries I have on speed dial if i have to give a day a miss. Theirs just a group of nasty liveries who like to get involved.


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## MaeBee93 (13 November 2016)

TuscanBunnyGirl said:



			I totally get where she's coming from and I am a YM and YO...own 6 and have 2 full liveries and 1 DIY, their beds are immaculate, adlib hay, nothing is obese/skinny, everywhere is clean, hygienic and tidy- there is no excuse. No way would I allow someone on my yard that couldnt look after their animals properly. If you can't cope, don't have.
		
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Until my stables leaked in the rain my beds were perfect. Both horses are on Ad lib hay morning and night apart from one morning where they got forage replacer. I am on one of the only yards in my area that even has turnout available because of the wet. The skinny tb was taken on a month ago and was absolutely skin and bone however has put weight in since with help from vet....what's your problem. No one has said I can't cope.


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## ycbm (13 November 2016)

MaeBee93 said:



			Thanks I've got a group of friends on the yard who I can call for help if I can't get down for anything etc. In fact they gave me the forage replacer for the morning. It's 3 liveries who have been causing havoc with everyone else that's the problem.  my budget is fine and have plenty aside to care for my horses and my child (living at home helps &#65533;&#65533 I also have a job and I'm a uni student hence why horses are done so early and late it's just personal circumstance. The horses want for nothing and ideally yes drier land for turnout would make it easier but unfortunately all yards in the area suffer the same problem. Some yards have closed turnout until Feb now &#65533;&#65533;
		
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Your horses want for nothing?  They want for movement outside their stables. They want for an uninterrupted supply of hay. They want for morning mucking out and are standing in their own faeces all day when they are in.

I'm sorry, but unless you are a troll you are fooling yourself.


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## ester (13 November 2016)

Quite, how do they want for nothing when they live in their own **** for 24 hours straight and go without hay for 3 days? you seem to have strange ideas about wanting for nothing and what is adequate basic horse care. If you have people that can help you at as they say, get them to skip out on the days you cannot do them until the afternoon.


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## MaeBee93 (13 November 2016)

ester said:



			If the TB is running out of hay and eating bedding as you previously stated that pile of hay is not massive enough. 

This post was not about nutritional advice no, but it was about other liveries interfering. If your horses are standing in for 24 hours, even only on occasion without being skipped out, even if they were the tidiest of horses I would have interfered too, sorry whatever the situation that is substandard care and if you don't have time to do it then you should pay a freelancer.
		
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On no other Ocasion has either horse ran out of hay night or day. A delivery of hay was delayed from one morning to the next so they were fed forage replacer and when they finished it they were turned out for the night as I had (along with a few other liveries) no choice. YM agreed it was fine in the circumstances. The muck heap has not been emptied and is a brick wall of crap that even climbing on won't cure so again along with other liveries we have not been able to muck out properly however I also have a leaky stable which has made it worse.


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## ester (13 November 2016)

MaeBee93 said:



			I've said its been heavy rain all week so the horses have been in so the beds look terrible until i muck them out again. b*ecause both horses get fed hay on the floor they tend to eat it really quick and then eat any good straw they haven't destroyed until the next hay time.*

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but you said this??


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## MaeBee93 (13 November 2016)

SusieT said:



			24 hours without mucking out - that's not an acceptable level of care. That's why the beds are a mess. IT takes ten minutes to do a quick muck out on a proper deep litter bed. 
Earlier you said they eat their hay wuickly - now you say they dont?
		
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Who said 24 hours?? They get mucked out every night instead of the morning 

Yes they do eat it quickly so there is only a bit left when I come down to top up rather than half net which they see with their own horses


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## ester (13 November 2016)

So the whole yard is standing on unmucked out beds? Lovely?

I'd just start another muck heap somewhere until it was sorted, not leave my horse stood on it instead!


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## ester (13 November 2016)

MaeBee93 said:



			Who said 24 hours?? They get mucked out every night instead of the morning 

Yes they do eat it quickly so there is only a bit left when I come down to top up rather than half net which they see with their own horses
		
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every night, 5pm to 5pm as you have said, is 24 hours....


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## MaeBee93 (13 November 2016)

ester said:



			but you said this??
		
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In a morning the beds are fine because they were only done the night before so during the day they get gradually worse and look like what you would see first thing in a morning


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## ester (13 November 2016)

You seem to be missing the point, you said that they eat their hay quickly and then eat any clean straw, if they had adequate hay it would be unlikely they would then eat the straw... I did put that bit in bold for you to see!


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## MaeBee93 (13 November 2016)

ester said:



			every night, 5pm to 5pm as you have said, is 24 hours....
		
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5am is when I go down in the morning to hay feed turnout if they are allowed out then at 5pm they are hayed and fed again and mucked out but for the past week it's been minimul because the muck heap is full hence why I've had to chuck extra straw in each night


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## ycbm (13 November 2016)

MaeBee93 said:



			In a morning the beds are fine because they were only done the night before so during the day they get gradually worse and look like what you would see first thing in a morning
		
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Now I really do think you are probably a troll. Your beds are fine after your horses have been in all night, so don't need mucking out until the evening?

If you could breed horses like that they'd be worth a fortune!


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## MaeBee93 (13 November 2016)

ester said:



			You seem to be missing the point, you said that they eat their hay quickly and then eat any clean straw, if they had adequate hay it would be unlikely they would then eat the straw... I did put that bit in bold for you to see!
		
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Both horses eat their bed regardless of hay, what of it? Some horses do especially when it's good straw. But it does mean they eat the good straw leave the muck then go finish the hay


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## ester (13 November 2016)

Yes, so on the occasions they aren't allowed out they go 24 hours 5pm to 5pm  without a muck out, exactly what SusieT was saying.


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## ycbm (13 November 2016)

MaeBee93 said:



			5am is when I go down in the morning to hay feed turnout if they are allowed out then at 5pm they are hayed and fed again and mucked out but for the past week it's been minimul because the muck heap is full hence why I've had to chuck extra straw in each night
		
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So you couldn't muck out because the heap was full, but some interfering liveries managed to ?


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## MaeBee93 (13 November 2016)

ester said:



			So the whole yard is standing on unmucked out beds? Lovely?

I'd just start another muck heap somewhere until it was sorted, not leave my horse stood on it instead!
		
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Actually we've been putting masses of clean straw on instead so no their not stood in it


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## MaeBee93 (13 November 2016)

ycbm said:



			Do you couldn't muck out because the heap was full, but some interfering liveries managed to ?
		
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They didn't muck my bed out they dug up underneath and then left it so crap was on the top rather than the clean straw that had been put in


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## ester (13 November 2016)

MaeBee93 said:



			Both horses eat their bed regardless of hay, what of it? Some horses do especially when it's good straw. But it does mean they eat the good straw leave the muck then go finish the hay
		
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Look I quoted your words, they weren't mine, you said they ate their hay quickly and then ate their straw. Now you are back tracking and saying well they eat their hay quickly, but don't eat all of it etc etc. 






Bottom line is that the picture that YOU have painted, no one else is one of inadequate basic care.


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## honetpot (13 November 2016)

Right I get it. 
A pile of hay on the floor and not in a nice tidy haynet doesn't look a lot, it may be fluffed up. A horse eating a straw bed looks terrible, but actually if its clean that not bad, its getting poor quality forage, which I actually feed my fatties. They get a round bale of hay and a large bale of straw and snack on both. 
  Everyone usually mucks out once a day, its just that most people do it in the morning so no one has to look at the disgusting mess they make all night because they are tucked up in bed at home.
  You deep litter but the roof is leaking, so they have mushed the bed even more, so the lovely clean straw you put down at night looks like mush at 10am.
  Like you have said people have not really read your post but you did not explain the situation really well, and perhaps this is happening on the yard, they assume if they haven't seen you, you haven't been there/or not for long. So if you want them off your backs you either inform them better ( painful but we have all had to do it)and get a bit of help or shift them somewhere where you at least do not have a leaky roof!
    It depends how much you can be a****. The YO should have enough sense to know what is going on, but if you have told her what you are doing and why, they are not really helping, and ask for the roof to be fixed. I would write up the feed regime, weigh the feed, put the hay and forage straw in a box so they can not mush it in and pay someone to muck/turnout when possible. I would also try a bag of wood pellets under the straw in the wet bit as it keeps the top straw dryer. At 37 weeks you haven't got a lot of time to sort this out. Good luck with the baby.


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## ester (13 November 2016)

MaeBee93 said:



			Actually we've been putting masses of clean straw on instead so no their not stood in it
		
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Apart from when they can't go out in the day and are messing on that clean straw for 24 hours....


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## ester (13 November 2016)

honetpot said:



			Everyone usually mucks out once a day, its just that most people do it in the morning so no one has to look at the disgusting mess they make all night because they are tucked up in bed at home.
		
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Sorry but not if their horses are in all day and all night they don't.


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## ycbm (13 November 2016)

MaeBee93 said:



			They didn't muck my bed out they dug up underneath and then left it so crap was on the top rather than the clean straw that had been put in
		
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Have you thought of keeping goats instead? They don't need exercising, nor do they produce so much muck that it is neglect if they are only mucked out once a day.

What quality is your hay?  It isn't normal for horses to eat a straw bed if there is decent hay available.


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## MaeBee93 (13 November 2016)

ycbm said:



			Now I really do think you are probably a troll. Your beds are fine after your horses have been in all night, so don't need mucking out until the evening?

If you could breed horses like that they'd be worth a fortune!
		
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Erm actually it's the same as mucking your horse out in the morning all day the bed looks great but by the next morning they've dirtied it. It doesn't magically go dirty when you appear on the yard the next day it gets progressively worse through the night. Well it's the same if you muck out in the evening instead beds will look great until midday the next day but then start to get noticably dirty after that there is still the same time period in between muck outs. If you muck out 7am every morning they still go 24 hours before the next muck out it's just mine get mucked out 5pm. They still get fed twice a day.


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## MaeBee93 (13 November 2016)

ester said:



			Look I quoted your words, they weren't mine, you said they ate their hay quickly and then ate their straw. Now you are back tracking and saying well they eat their hay quickly, but don't eat all of it etc etc. 






Bottom line is that the picture that YOU have painted, no one else is one of inadequate basic care.
		
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So I don't look after my horses because they choose to eat their bed....


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## ester (13 November 2016)

If you muck out at 7am in the morning and your horse stands in all day it is totally normal to then muck out again in the evening. 
If the horse is out during the day the bed is still spotless in the evening when they come in so in the morning the bed has only had 12 hours use and isn't totally minging either.


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## TuscanBunnyGirl (13 November 2016)

MaeBee93 said:



			Erm actually it's the same as mucking your horse out in the morning all day the bed looks great but by the next morning they've dirtied it. It doesn't magically go dirty when you appear on the yard the next day it gets progressively worse through the night. Well it's the same if you muck out in the evening instead beds will look great until midday the next day but then start to get noticably dirty after that there is still the same time period in between muck outs. If you muck out 7am every morning they still go 24 hours before the next muck out it's just mine get mucked out 5pm. They still get fed twice a day.
		
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I think it's quite normal practice to muck out in the morning and skip throughout the day or in the evening, some inc myself muck out twice a day if they're staying in. Mine get a last skip out at 10pm and check to see if they're happy and healthy and need any hay/water etc. So when you ask 'what my problem is' it's the fact that I don't get why your horses are left all day without any care when us others manage fine..


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## ycbm (13 November 2016)

Everyone usually mucks out once a day, its just that most people do it in the morning so no one has to look at the disgusting mess they make all night because they are tucked up in bed at home.
		
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Everyone does not. Never have, and don't know anyone else who ever has.


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## ester (13 November 2016)

MaeBee93 said:



			So I don't look after my horses because they choose to eat their bed....
		
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No, you don't look after your horses because you muck out once a day on a slightly dubious sounding deep litter system (and I am a semi deep litter fan on the right bedding with the right maintenance) when your horses are stood in their stables for 24 hours rather than do them twice a day as any normal horse owner would expect to. That is inadequate basic care, I hate to think what the state of their feet are.


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## ycbm (13 November 2016)

MaeBee93 said:



			Erm actually it's the same as mucking your horse out in the morning all day the bed looks great but by the next morning they've dirtied it. It doesn't magically go dirty when you appear on the yard the next day it gets progressively worse through the night. Well it's the same if you muck out in the evening instead beds will look great until midday the next day but then start to get noticably dirty after that there is still the same time period in between muck outs. If you muck out 7am every morning they still go 24 hours before the next muck out it's just mine get mucked out 5pm. They still get fed twice a day.
		
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Do you have horses which don't poop and pee in daylight hours or something?


Ime, most people with horses in 24/7 will skip out at least twice a day if they deep litter, and muck out once and skip out once if they don't.


You are also failing to care adequately for your horses by not getting them exercised when there is no turnout.


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## Achinghips (13 November 2016)

I have kept a horse in for 24 hours once, once. I mean one occasion ....... in the last seven years ...... and I have been on four different livery yards.  Now I have them at home, they are in for six hours max and are mucked out twice during that time.  They have big bale hay in field and two haynets with three quarters of a bale each in them.   What you are doing is not normal basic care.


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## SO1 (13 November 2016)

I think maybe this yard is not quite right for you.

The stables leak, the muck does not get taken away promptly so people can't muck out properly, and as the British weather is unpredictable you find it hard to work out how much hay is needed so you run out and can't more easily.

If the horses are kept in 24/7 then they do need skipping out twice a day, otherwise unless the horse is very tidy and poos in mainly one area and the stable is huge the beds will get very messy and unpleasant. 

The other liveries should not have interfered but I would not be surprised if they had not raised their concerns with your YO. 

It is not going to get easier for you as your pregnancy progresses and if we have a hard winter and or you have any issues with your baby you may find it difficult to cope.


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## be positive (13 November 2016)

MaeBee93 said:



			Erm actually it's the same as mucking your horse out in the morning all day the bed looks great but by the next morning they've dirtied it. It doesn't magically go dirty when you appear on the yard the next day it gets progressively worse through the night. Well it's the same if you muck out in the evening instead beds will look great until midday the next day but then start to get noticably dirty after that there is still the same time period in between muck outs. If you muck out 7am every morning they still go 24 hours before the next muck out it's just mine get mucked out 5pm. They still get fed twice a day.
		
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Not on most yards, if the horse is in during the day they get a full muck out in the morning then skipped out during the day with the wet taken out again at tea time with clean bedding added at some point, if they are out all day then mucking out in the evening is acceptable. No horse should stand in a dirty bed for 24 hours even as a one off it is not good practice, however you try and phrase it you are not taking good enough care of the horses and your excuses are not coming across very well. 

I would not accept this on my yard, you would have two options, leave or go onto part livery, I had someone here a few years ago who thought mucking out was a once in a while job, she was soon moved on.


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## MaeBee93 (13 November 2016)

honetpot said:



			Right I get it. 
A pile of hay on the floor and not in a nice tidy haynet doesn't look a lot, it may be fluffed up. A horse eating a straw bed looks terrible, but actually if its clean that not bad, its getting poor quality forage, which I actually feed my fatties. They get a round bale of hay and a large bale of straw and snack on both. 
  Everyone usually mucks out once a day, its just that most people do it in the morning so no one has to look at the disgusting mess they make all night because they are tucked up in bed at home.
  You deep litter but the roof is leaking, so they have mushed the bed even more, so the lovely clean straw you put down at night looks like mush at 10am.
  Like you have said people have not really read your post but you did not explain the situation really well, and perhaps this is happening on the yard, they assume if they haven't seen you, you haven't been there/or not for long. So if you want them off your backs you either inform them better ( painful but we have all had to do it)and get a bit of help or shift them somewhere where you at least do not have a leaky roof!
    It depends how much you can be a****. The YO should have enough sense to know what is going on, but if you have told her what you are doing and why, they are not really helping, and ask for the roof to be fixed. I would write up the feed regime, weigh the feed, put the hay and forage straw in a box so they can not mush it in and pay someone to muck/turnout when possible. I would also try a bag of wood pellets under the straw in the wet bit as it keeps the top straw dryer. At 37 weeks you haven't got a lot of time to sort this out. Good luck with the baby.
		
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Thank you! However what has been missed is the first night I knew my roof leaked I decided I needed to go from deep litter to full muck out (this was Sunday) I dug a few barrows out but soon couldn't fit much on the muck heap so decided to wait to do the rest (empty the bed completely) after the muck heap was emptied which was supposed to happen the next day. me and the other liveries are a week down the line with no muck heap. so we've been taking poo out and putting a thick layer of clean straw on top. Unfortunately because of the weather turnout is hit and miss but we are one of the few yards that even allows turnout anymore some have banned it until Feb in my area. I've also stated if they don't go out they get a leg stretch via lunge pen/hand grazing and walking up the lane and back. They are never stood in for 24 hours they always come out every day for something. They always have something left when I go back to re hay up in the evening but they have also usually eaten the straw as well. The hay is fairly good I wouldn't say perfect but Its not dusty or mouldy, smells sweet and I can't imagine many people turning their noses up at it and all the horses are happy to eat it and seem to be thriving. I've only had the tb a month and she's already looking better she's perking up and has noticably stopped cribbing as much. The cob is overweight but she hasn't gained more and when she's back in work over Christmas it will drop. Just because she's overweight doesn't mean I reduce her hay she gets just as much as I don't want her having ulcers but she gets a handful of chaff in a bucket to make her think she's getting a feed when the tb gets hers and her weight hasn't gained this way for many weeks. If it does I'll do something. I will admit we have bog standard facilities (stable, lockup, paddock) but that doesn't shout cruelty to me.


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## MaeBee93 (13 November 2016)

ycbm said:



			I'm sorry but it isn't acceptable for a stabled horse not to 'work'. Even if it's as thin as a rake, if it can't go out in a field it needs taking out for a walk like a dog for at least an hour. There is no excuse, I'm afraid, for any horse to be stabled 24 hours a day unless on box rest. You've known for a long time now that you weren't going to be able to ride and you should have made other arrangements to get your horses out of their boxes. I'm not the slightest bit surprised that other liveries are upset with the way you are managing your horses and have interfered.
		
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Actually if you read you will see the horses get out for either grazing in hand/lunge pen or walked up the lane every day &#128522;


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## ycbm (13 November 2016)

MaeBee93 said:



			Actually if you read you will see the horses get out for either grazing in hand/lunge pen or walked up the lane every day &#65533;&#65533;
		
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How long for?


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## MaeBee93 (13 November 2016)

ester said:



			Quite, how do they want for nothing when they live in their own **** for 24 hours straight and go without hay for 3 days? you seem to have strange ideas about wanting for nothing and what is adequate basic horse care. If you have people that can help you at as they say, get them to skip out on the days you cannot do them until the afternoon.
		
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Oh wow you really can't read.....


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## MaeBee93 (13 November 2016)

ycbm said:



			How long for?  A lunge pen is not acceptable exercise,  the horse might as well still be in a stable
		
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As long as needed. So 25 minutes exercise in a lunge pen is not enough?


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## MaeBee93 (13 November 2016)

TuscanBunnyGirl said:



			I think it's quite normal practice to muck out in the morning and skip throughout the day or in the evening, some inc myself muck out twice a day if they're staying in. Mine get a last skip out at 10pm and check to see if they're happy and healthy and need any hay/water etc. So when you ask 'what my problem is' it's the fact that I don't get why your horses are left all day without any care when us others manage fine..
		
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No one else I've met seems to have a problem with seeing to their horses twice a day on DIY. Especially since we all have jobs to go to during the day


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## Achinghips (13 November 2016)

MaeBee93 said:



			As long as needed. So 25 minutes exercise in a lunge pen is not enough?
		
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No, you said your underweight Tb can't cbe lunged . Your other is an arthritic cob, so no again.


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## ester (13 November 2016)

MaeBee93 said:



			Oh wow you really can't read.....
		
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well I have tried to get clarification, by questioning what you have said, with quotes, and bits in bold to try and find out exactly what is going on given that you have then gone back on what you said originally.

So far as I can now tell you are suggesting that because you get them out in the lunge pen for 25 minutes a day the fact that they are only mucked out once a day on the days they do not get turnout is then ok? I don't really see anyone other than you on this thread disagreeing with me that if your horses are not turned out on those occasions they need mucking out in the morning AND in the evening, not one or the other and that it is not normal to do so.


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## MaeBee93 (13 November 2016)

Achinghips said:



			No, you said your underweight Tb can't cbe lunged . Your other is an arthritic cob, so no again.
		
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They don't get lunged (and it's not a 20m circle size pen either before you cry over that as well) they just go in the lunge pen and blow steam and then their hand grazed

Let me edit this before someone cries again.....

I will stand with them to eat the grass next to the lunge pen


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## ester (13 November 2016)

MaeBee93 said:



			No one else I've met seems to have a problem with seeing to their horses twice a day on DIY. Especially since we all have jobs to go to during the day
		
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Yes, most DIYers including me see their horses twice a day. 
But seeing is more than seeing, seeing is seeing to their needs, which if they are unable to be turned out means mucking out twice a day. Even when mine is out (they do 8-2 in winter) he is skipped out at 8/9pm and bed tidied and at 6/7am. Full muck out weekends only.
If he had to stay in all day I would probably be seeing if I could get someone to skip at lunch too.


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## ycbm (13 November 2016)

MaeBee93 said:



			As long as needed. So 25 minutes exercise in a lunge pen is not enough?
		
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Well I don't believe I lunging horses in circles, especially not an arthritic cob, so for me 25 minutes is too long to be lunging.

But is 25 minutes exercise enough for a horse with no turnout?

I'm afraid the fact that you even ask the question shows how little you understand about good or even adequate horse care.


ETA they aren't being lunged, I see you are now saying, they just go in the pen for 25 minutes. You really, really do need to be keeping goats instead of horses  (but then I think you probably are).


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## TuscanBunnyGirl (13 November 2016)

MaeBee93 said:



			No one else I've met seems to have a problem with seeing to their horses twice a day on DIY. Especially since we all have jobs to go to during the day
		
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damn it...that's where the rest of us are going wrong. You guys are the only ones who have jobs :/ Sorry...we're all wrong. You're right. Wish everyone could look after their horses as well as you. I'm bowing out of this one...you're either a complete troll or you're genuinely convinced that your 'care' for your horses is remotely acceptable- if it's the latter..I'm so sorry for you horses.


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## MaeBee93 (13 November 2016)

ester said:



			Yes, most DIYers including me see their horses twice a day. 
But seeing is more than seeing, seeing is seeing to their needs, which if they are unable to be turned out means mucking out twice a day. Even when mine is out (they do 8-2 in winter) he is skipped out at 8/9pm and bed tidied and at 6/7am. Full muck out weekends only.
If he had to stay in all day I would probably be seeing if I could get someone to skip at lunch too.
		
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So you. Only do a full muck out at weekends....


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## SO1 (13 November 2016)

I don't think anyone is saying you are not coming to see your horses enough just that they need skipping out twice a day if they are only going out for 30 half a hour in the lunge pen rather than the once a day you currently do. If they were being turned out in the morning for the day or over night then yes once a day skipping out is sufficient.  It is just on the days that they are in for nearly 24 hours that they could do with being skipped out twice a day.



MaeBee93 said:



			No one else I've met seems to have a problem with seeing to their horses twice a day on DIY. Especially since we all have jobs to go to during the day
		
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## ester (13 November 2016)

Yes, I said earlier I was a fan of semi deep litter or did you not read that? Given your charming comment to me earlier about reading... 

Have used a variety of beddings to do it on, but having a particularly tidy horse have done it on straw too though it certainly isn't the best, better with a bag of something else as a base IME.

 But, back to the point of this post no one would ever question either the state of my bed which would never get to the point of looking filthy as skipped twice or three times a day as described, or the forage my horse was being fed. 
You were stroppy that other liveries were interfering. I think the general gist of this thread is that people are rather understanding as to why they would and usually on this forum people would be aghast at people getting involved or sticking their oar in just because things were done differently.


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## ycbm (13 November 2016)

MaeBee93 said:



			They don't get lunged (and it's not a 20m circle size pen either before you cry over that as well) they just go in the lunge pen and blow steam and then their hand grazed

Let me edit this before someone cries again.....

I will stand with them to eat the grass next to the lunge pen
		
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For how long are they out of their stables?


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## Achinghips (13 November 2016)

Sod this, has to be a troll. Certainly not anyone embarking on a degree Pmsl.


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## ycbm (13 November 2016)

MaeBee93 said:



			So you. Only do a full muck out at weekends....
		
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When mine were in stables I deep littered on various bedding and only mucked out fully once every three or four months. My horses never stood in a stable for twenty four hours without being skipped out and the top was always clean and dry. I'm not blowing my own trumpet her, that's NORMAL.


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## ycbm (13 November 2016)

Achinghips said:



			Sod this, has to be a troll. Certainly not anyone embarking on a degree Pmsl.
		
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Maebee keeps goats and lives under a bridge  ??


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## Achinghips (13 November 2016)

You're not "kidding" baaaah lol


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## MaeBee93 (13 November 2016)

SO1 said:



			I don't think anyone is saying you are not coming to see your horses enough just that they need skipping out twice a day if they are only going out for 30 half a hour in the lunge pen rather than the once a day you currently do. If they were being turned out in the morning for the day or over night then yes once a day skipping out is sufficient.  It is just on the days that they are in for nearly 24 hours that they could do with being skipped out twice a day.
		
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But no one is reading the rest, they are attacking because someone does things differently because i muck out in an evening instead of a morning. And the fact the muck heap this week has not been emptied and no one can physically put muck on there anymore so we are all restricted. We have a bog standard yard and unfortunately we've found my stables leak. So I will change from deep litter to full muck out WHEN I have somewhere to put their beds and in the meantime they are getting a tonne of straw on top to combat the wet. So my beds haven't been perfect this week (still a few inches of clean between the muck and the horse they've still got banks too and its big enough) my horses have been fed plenty they still get out their boxes they are groomed rugs changed accordingly etc. However someone has come in my stable hung nets up for two horses who don't get fed out of nets for vet reasons even though they clearly have hay and they a choosing to eat the straw instead and dug up the mess from the bottom and put it on top of the bed. Then turned the tb out in a soaking wet paddock on her own and all she did was stand and crib at the gate!


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## ycbm (13 November 2016)

someone has come in my stable hung nets up for two horses  .......  even though they clearly have hay
		
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Why would they?

Do they still 'clearly have hay' a couple of hours after you've gone home? Is the hay that they've 'clearly got' being trampled into the muck you don't take out often enough?


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## MaeBee93 (13 November 2016)

ester said:



			Yes, I said earlier I was a fan of semi deep litter or did you not read that? Given your charming comment to me earlier about reading... 

Have used a variety of beddings to do it on, but having a particularly tidy horse have done it on straw too though it certainly isn't the best, better with a bag of something else as a base IME.

 But, back to the point of this post no one would ever question either the state of my bed which would never get to the point of looking filthy as skipped twice or three times a day as described, or the forage my horse was being fed. 
You were stroppy that other liveries were interfering. I think the general gist of this thread is that people are rather understanding as to why they would and usually on this forum people would be aghast at people getting involved or sticking their oar in just because things were done differently.
		
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My beds only started looking crap when my stables leaked before that they were perfect. Deep litter will not work so I'm changing back to a full muck out night however muck heap is bursting so I haven't swopped over yet and liveries entered my stable and pulled all the wet from underneath and put it in top


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## MaeBee93 (13 November 2016)

ycbm said:



			Why would they?

Do they still 'clearly have hay' a couple of hours after you've gone home? Is the hay that they've 'clearly got' being trampled into the muck you don't take out often enough?
		
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Yes because when I come back they still have a pile at the front away from the bed. Every night my beds are cleaned but because of the muck heap trouble we have ALL had to just give a quick tidy up and put loads of clean on top. This is my point these liveries do this with everyone.


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## MaeBee93 (13 November 2016)

ycbm said:



			For how long are they out of their stables?
		
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At least an hour sometimes more especially if I go hand grazing with one of the other liveries and we get chatting


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## paddi22 (13 November 2016)

Every reason you give for bad management is down to yard issues. It's your choice to keep your horses on a *****ty yard and doesn't give them good quality of life. I honestly wouldn't keep a horse if the only option I can give it would be an hour nibbling grass and having a canter in a  lunge pen, and then being stuck 23 hours in a box. It's no life for an animal. 

why not take the pressure off yourself and turn them out to 24/7 grazing, even if its a bit of a journey away? It would take a huge amount  pressure off you. And having a heavy cob and a underweight tb isn't an excuse. I have had both, and they both coped fine. cob went unrugged and tb went rugged and somewhere with forage. both survived and were way happier than if they had been in 24/7


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## ycbm (13 November 2016)

MaeBee93 said:



			My beds only started looking crap when my stables leaked before that they were perfect. Deep litter will not work so I'm changing back to a full muck out night however muck heap is bursting so I haven't swopped over yet and liveries entered my stable and pulled all the wet from underneath and put it in top
		
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Have you asked them why they did this and why they gave your horses food that they didn't need?

And by the by, an hour out of the stable in a tiny pen or eating grass on the end of a lead rope isn't good enough.


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## MaeBee93 (13 November 2016)

paddi22 said:



			Every reason you give for bad management is down to yard issues. It's your choice to keep your horses on a *****ty yard and doesn't give them good quality of life. I honestly wouldn't keep a horse if the only option I can give it would be an hour nibbling grass and having a canter in a  lunge pen, and then being stuck 23 hours in a box. It's no life for an animal. 

why not take the pressure off yourself and turn them out to 24/7 grazing, even if its a bit of a journey away? It would take a huge amount  pressure off you. And having a heavy cob and a underweight tb isn't an excuse. I have had both, and they both coped fine. cob went unrugged and tb went rugged and somewhere with forage. both survived and were way happier than if they had been in 24/7
		
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I have considered that but thought I'd give this a try first. Yes my problems have come about from what's happened on the yard but this is all in the space of a weeK. does everyone just pack up and leave if they don't get perfect service. The leaky stable and the full muck heap are very unfortunate but the YM is trying very hard to get someone to shift it asap for us and I'm actually being bought extra straw to compensate for how much I'm burning through. Only when the fields are wet do we get told no turnout and it just so happens to be this week it's peed it down everyday the week before it was cold but dry and they were out 12 hours a day!


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## paddi22 (13 November 2016)

i can't even imagine being heavily preggers and trying to cope with all that! Throw them out in suitable winter grazing and offload all the stress. It would be better for the tb definitely, they soon adjust to living out and it would be better for the ulcers and cribbing. You'l save a ton of cash and stress.


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## MaeBee93 (13 November 2016)

ycbm said:



			Have you asked them why they did this and why they gave your horses food that they didn't need?
		
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They don't like deep litter beds and they said it's because the TB is skinny (she's put on weight since being with me) they've been heard saying they are planning on getting me and another livery kicked off.


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## Moomin1 (13 November 2016)

MaeBee93 said:



			So I don't look after my horses because they choose to eat their bed....
		
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Change the bedding...


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## MaeBee93 (13 November 2016)

paddi22 said:



			i can't even imagine being heavily preggers and trying to cope with all that! Throw them out in suitable winter grazing and offload all the stress. It would be better for the tb definitely, they soon adjust to living out and it would be better for the ulcers and cribbing. You'l save a ton of cash and stress.
		
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I will take another look at places that offer 24/7 turnout or maybe renting a bit of land?? 

I have a very small bump and have only had to stop riding about 3 weeks ago and that was because i didn't fancy washing vomit out my horses mane each time we had a trot or did a circle in canter haha!!


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## ycbm (13 November 2016)

MaeBee93 said:



			They don't like deep litter beds and they said it's because the TB is skinny (she's put on weight since being with me) they've been heard saying they are planning on getting me and another livery kicked off.
		
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You said the whole yard is currently on deep litter because of the full muck trailer.

Why would they give food to a thin horse who 'clearly' has hay available at all times?


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## MaeBee93 (13 November 2016)

Moomin1 said:



			Change the bedding...
		
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Why, neither of them are at risk from eating good straw just means I go through more. Do you know some people will actually feed straw instead of hay (I don't btw I feed hay)


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## MaeBee93 (13 November 2016)

ycbm said:



			You said the whole yard is currently on deep litter because of the full muck trailer.

Why would they give food to a thin horse who 'clearly' has hay available at all times?
		
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EXACTLY!! The whole yard this week has had to do the same but they have gone into my stable and dug my bed up and left it and put hay in a net for two horses who don't get fed in nets for vet reasons! If they want to shove their own hay over the door their welcome to it but don't start putting hay in nets giving hard feed and turning out during strictly no turnout days horses that don't belong to them


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## Moomin1 (13 November 2016)

This has got to be the most boring and obvious troll thread ever


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## conniegirl (14 November 2016)

Good god you are an idiot!

If your horse is staying in then it needs to be mucked out at least twice a day and get a good few hours exercise!

Im on DIY livery, i work 8am to 6pm, my horse has various vet issues that mean exercising is difficult for him, on the very rare occassion that he has to stay in for the day i pay my yard owner to muck him out and gove him hay/water in the morning, she will also turn him out in the school for an hour, then i go at lunch to skip him out, top up hay and water and turn him out for 20 mins in the school. In the evening i will turn him out in the school for a couple of hours and then i will lunge or ride, i will also do a good muck out at this point.
He is also checked and given a net at around 10pm by my yard owner.

So in total he is mucked out twice, skipped out once, hay/water 4 times a day and out of his stable/exercised for at least 4 hours if he doesnt get his normal all day turnout.

He is also bedded on rubber mats with deep sawdust on top of very well draining earth floors. This means his bed is extremely absorbant so no ammonia fumes and no wet patches.

A thin horse will still need exercise otherwise they will put on only fat not muscle, fat leads to metabolic disorders, muscle leads to well rounded, healthy horses.

If you cannoy provide this for a horse then you should not be keeping one.

As for the muck heap, start a new one! then fork it into place once the old one is emptied.


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## ester (14 November 2016)

MaeBee93 said:



			They don't like deep litter beds and they said it's because the TB is skinny (she's put on weight since being with me) they've been heard saying they are planning on getting me and another livery kicked off.
		
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 IME people only don't like deep litter beds if they look awful. You wouldn't know mine wasn't mucked out daily. 

Are you sure these people weren't genuinely trying to help you out by doing some barrows given your condition?? 

It has gone from very dry for the time of year to one day of rain and that was all it took for them to have to stay in? Which makes me think they are going to have to be in an awful lot the rest of the winter at this yard which seems to be a bit of a dive (surely the yo could see the heap filling up ahead of time?) so I would seriously consider paddi's suggestion.


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## Amymay (14 November 2016)

MaeBee93 said:



			Do you know some people will actually feed straw instead of hay (I don't btw I feed hay)
		
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Yep, me. Mixed in with a little hay to get weight off a fat little cob.

Op, wet, cold and mud are not a precursor to keeping horses in.  Every horse needs turnout for a couple of hours a day. And appropriate rugs and ointments can be used to keep them dry and warm and mf at bay.  A horse that's in also needs to be mucked out a minimum of twice a day, and ideally skipped out in between. 

In my experience people rarely interfere unless there is a good reason to do so. So in your shoes I'd be inclined to get my act together and start managing your routine and management rather better - for the sake of the horses.


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## Auslander (14 November 2016)

MaeBee93 said:



			Why, neither of them are at risk from eating good straw just means I go through more. Do you know some people will actually feed straw instead of hay (I don't btw I feed hay)
		
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Just be careful. I had a £1600 vets bill a few years back, courtesy of a horse who ate his own bodyweight in straw. Oat straw is fine in small quantities, bu wheat straw (which is what you usually get for bedding) isn't easy for them to break down in the gut, which can lead to impaction. My horse survived but it was very touch and go. There's a long thread on here about that week - I'l never forget the support I got from folks on here, when I was exhausted, heartbroken and terrified


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## Amymay (14 November 2016)

I feed with a hay bar and not haynets. 

PLUS if they have access to good quality hay they won't eat the straw.

Manage your pasture if you can, try not to overgraze through summer and save some grass for winter, stock up on electric fencing tape and posts to fence off horrendously poached areas as well. *You will find this way your horses can get turned out during the day for almost all of winter which will save bedding and hay plus time but also don't be afraid to say no on wet days and save your grass by not turning out.*

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So what's changed since September when you psted this, op?


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## Nudibranch (14 November 2016)

Moomin1 said:



			This has got to be the most boring and obvious troll thread ever
		
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Mmm..notice the reference to cantering while 34 weeks pregnant when things started to calm down...


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## Goldenstar (14 November 2016)

A



Moomin1 said:



			This has got to be the most boring and obvious troll thread ever
		
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I hope so ,because if it were my yard and OP was managing the horses as you describe I would be showing the gate .
If it's true poor poor horses .


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## 9tails (14 November 2016)

People generally only interfere if they think horses are suffering.  How about investing in hay bars so the hay supply is obvious?

It's odd that your sodden deep litter was dug up but I suspect that was someone trying to make them better and realised the enormity of the task.  Wood pellets under the straw will soak up the worst of the wet, though as others have advised a morning skip out will help keep your beds looking good.  As others on your yard have the same mucking out issue, they must feel that your beds are particularly bad to get involved.

Order plenty of hay.  I have at least a month in hand for any problems with delivery.

Sorry it's not what you want to hear, but if your horses are stirring their hay into a dirty bed then it will look like they have nothing to eat and others will be concerned.


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## skint1 (14 November 2016)

IF you're not a troll, I think you've had some good advice here about how to improve the quality of life for your horses, though I think if the yard is as badly run as you say it is, you should move as soon as you can, grass livery is probably going to be best for your horses.


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## twiggy2 (14 November 2016)

When out trailer does not get emptied we tip wheelbarrow muck next to it- I would never muck out once a day if horse was in, you must be a troll


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## Achinghips (14 November 2016)

Right I have an arthritic horse I stable and now is the perfect time to get a skinny Tb one month before I drop a sprog with winter coming, while I start my degree.Unless it's a degree in village idiocy, something doesn't quite ring true.


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## Amye (14 November 2016)

If this isn't a troll....

You've got lots of good advice on how to help care for your horses. I don't have many years experience behind me like some of the posters on here, but I do agree that, either from your pregnancy or lack of time, parts of your horses care are lacking.

I understand you do turn your horses out sometimes, but on the days where they get no turnout they really do need to be mucked out (or skipped out) at least twice a day.  Most people do muck out once a day, but this is because their horses are turned out for part of the day. On days they have to be in and can have no turnout people muck out twice a day (and if other people on your yard are only doing in once a day when their horses haven't been turned out that doesn't make it right).

If your muck heap is full all of the liveries should be complaining to YO. I would be very annoyed if I couldn't muck out my horse! And if it can't be collected then another muck heap needs to be started somewhere else. Even if people only skip out so it doesn't build up as much as with full muck outs

Have you considered getting hay bars instead of feeding off the floor? It will keep the hay and bedding separate so your horses don't mix all their hay into their dirty bedding. Other liveries will then be able to see that they DO have food - if you feed off the floor and the horses have spread it all about, it might look like that have no food which is why they were feeding them...

Have you considered putting a sign up saying that the horses mustn't be fed from haynets? The other liveries probably don't know that your horses have conditions where they can't eat from nets.

Like others have said, people don't tend to interfere unless they think there's a problem. Other liveries shouldn't interfere with others horses but most do it with good intentions.

When you have the baby, you'll probably find yourself with even less time then you have now. Especially if you are doing a degree. I would really consider moving yards to assisted DIY/part livery so you don't have to do as many chores or try to find someone to help you out at either end of the day.


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## Schollym (20 November 2016)

Sounds like you need to consider moving yards if the YM isn't managing the yard! Good luck with the baby and use as much help as you can get in the next few months because it is going to  be a hard few months ( speaking as a mum and horse owner).


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## applecart14 (22 November 2016)

At the last yard my horse was only going out for 2 hours per day in the winter into a sandpit.  He had access to ad lib hay, was able to stretch his legs, buck and run around to an extent and roll.  All natural behavior.  Because I am unable to get up in the morning before work to muck out I had the YO mucking out for me in the morning whilst he was turned out and putting minimal bed back down with large banks and also skipping out for me in the afternoon (rarely lies down in the day).  He would have a net lunch time.  Then in the evening when I would get to the yard around 4.45pm I would ride, and skip out and pull down the banks so he had a nice deep clean bed.  This saved me time and money to manage the shavings in this way.  On the days I didn't ride I would only lead him around the yard car park for about ten minutes, but this was only usually a couple of times per week.  

I decided to get the YO involved in the mucking out because keeping a 17.1hh MW horse in a 14 x 12 stable for 21 - 22 hours per day meant a huge amount of muck and it would not have been fair to him (in my opinion) to have stood in it until I got there after work - he probably wouldn't have cared but I would have.

Now he has moved yards he is out between 3.5 - 4.5 hours in a grass paddock and I only muck out once per day in the evening after work because he is out more.


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