# VOSA - Be aware HGV drivers.



## JackJill (19 February 2012)

Well, an interesting weekend for us  we got stopped by VOSA! In fairness, the three of them were very decent and I guess are only doing a job, but it was a little bit of an unpleasant inconvenience. We drove past them when we entered the motorway. I have no doubt that having the wrong spacing on our number plate didnt help as it was not read properly on their ANPR machine  offence number 1!

We got interrogated as to what we had on board, who owned them, where we were going and if there was any remote chance we might win a prize  cash or in kind. No, we dont have an operators licence, but we really had to work to prove we didnt need one, including who paid for the fuel and if a friend had been with us and we were sharing, that would be enough. Anyway, things didnt go so well when we pointed out we were a private HGV, after all, thats the band of VEL we pay and what the VOSA man said when it was last plated. Apparently theres no such thing, so the fact that we had no disc in the tacho was offence 2, with points and a fine.

Offence 3 came due to the spray suppression on one side being dirty/faulty and the number plate meant a delayed prohibition notice to the vehicle. We also had a long discussion regarding what we had done for the last week re-work. Although we were within our drivers hours, assuming we had a tacho, we cant drive next weekend!!!

We genuinely are running a private HGV, which does beg a question how many people are risking a significant fine, etc. They are out and about, including weekends!


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## henryhorn (19 February 2012)

Thank you so much for this info, I was assured by the Exeter Vosa we definitely didn't need a tacho and had no idea winning any money however small invalidated the law. 
I will be ringing them tomorrow because this isn't on, different rules etc, and have you considered challenging your fine/points?


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## Santa_Claus (19 February 2012)

there is new vosa leaflet covering horseboxes that states in your situation operators licence etc not required. i suggest printing and keeping a copy in your lorry to show them on any future occurrences. worth challenging the tacho points as well. it is linked through H&H in the news section about a week ago

Edit to say if you have a HGV then tacho is required its only up to 7.5t that is exempt.


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## Santa_Claus (19 February 2012)

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/397/311347.html

that is the news story with Vosa leaflet link in it


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## Ionadiamond (19 February 2012)

Is anything over 3.5 classes as a HGV or is it over 7.5?? We're having a tacho fitted in ours this week just in case!


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## Mrs Pink (19 February 2012)

This happened to me a couple of years ago, v scary so every sympathy. Although the primary aim for them stopping me was to check having a tachograph in, and they did say it was purely an educational exercise. When they realised I hadn't filled one in, I had to e-mail them my last 3 weeks working hours so I would advise you check up on your driving hour regs because if you work full time, they will really take you to town if you don't comply with the necessary breaks required. You only need to do this if you are over 7.5t though.

As SantaClaus says, print the VOSA leaflet off, there's also one on the BE website which is good as it goes into giving people lifts etc.

ROG on here is the man to ask re: rules and regs or you can PM me if you want to ask any questions


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## dieseldog (19 February 2012)

What size is your lorry JackJill?

When I get mine plated I sign something to say it is private, it has to have a tacho in it that works, but I dont have to use it.  Mine is 7.5t.  We have been stopped a few times by VOSA, as we live by a VOSA 'trap'.  But never had any problems.


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## JackJill (19 February 2012)

Hi, many thanks for the link, it is an interesting read. Some of it does contradict the advice/comments made by the VOSA people, especially re-prize money, etc, although it's difficult to know what the outcome would have been if we had said anything different. In our case it was agreed that we didn't need an operators licence, but they did make a big deal of the word 'international' on the back of the box - reading the doc, I now see why.

Our box is 18 tonnes and we wrongly assumed we didn't need to use the tacho due to paying 'private HGV' VEL and the plate VOSA staff giving us the private/HGV exemption docuement to sign at the time of the plate. It's our own fault as clearly there are no excusses for an 18 tonne vehicle. Working in a different job during the week does raise some issues re-drivers hours though.


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## perfect11s (19 February 2012)

Ionadiamond said:



			Is anything over 3.5 classes as a HGV or is it over 7.5?? We're having a tacho fitted in ours this week just in case!
		
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 You dont need to use the tachograph if you are 7.5 ton or under for PRIVATE use if its bussiness then you do and need an O licence...


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## Cuffey (19 February 2012)

This link added to similar thread on another forum

Weigh in Motion System--WIMS

http://www.transportsfriend.org/enforcement/wims.html


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## smurf (19 February 2012)

I had the same thing a few months back, ironically I did not have horses in as I was on my way home from having my tacho calibrated. 

I had a valid tacho in but they clearly wanted to get me for something. they dipped my tank to check for red diesel and then asked for my national insurance number and called some office to check I was not claiming benefits and driving a lorry on the side. Went all over the lorry and even asked if I had any rossets and that would be proof I was using the box for 'gain or reward' as a rosset is an award!

Kept me almost an hour and let me leave as found nothing. 

18t you always need a tacho. They cost pennies so why would you not use one?


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## perfect11s (19 February 2012)

Santa_Claus said:



			there is new vosa leaflet covering horseboxes that states in your situation operators licence etc not required. i suggest printing and keeping a copy in your lorry to show them on any future occurrences. worth challenging the tacho points as well. it is linked through H&H in the news section about a week ago



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 Yes good idea and its important to know the law incase
you get one of these hitler types  that dosent know the  letter of the law they are inforcing , not sure where this is all heading but with so many of these goverment types with powers its heading towards a police state, and there are a lot of people in bussiness who are wondering what the point of continuing , are we safer now than say 25 years ago or is it just jobs for the boys I know most of this shite comes from our misgiuded membership of the EU but the chance of any of the 3 main partys getting us out is remote despite what the people of this country want .... sell up and go to somewhere else perhaps??? non of my friends who went to canada , oz or NZ have any plans to come back


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## JackJill (19 February 2012)

smurf said:



			18t you always need a tacho. They cost pennies so why would you not use one?
		
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Very true, they are indeed very cheap items and ironically, we have lots in the box - the point being, we didn't use them because we didn't think we needed to!


We were also kept for about an hour whilst all of the checks were being made. We ended up missing the main class we were going for too.

The point is - we made a mistake (ironically bad advice from VOSA) - and it seems silly not to warn others who may be in a similar misunderstanding regarding the rules.


Of course, the other issue is that if tacho's are needed, then drivers hours are also relevant. Because we do other 'day jobs', we were advised to keep a diary in the cab explaining what hours were worked EVERY single day. Reading some other posts, I guess that might be good advice.


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## perfect11s (19 February 2012)

JackJill said:



			Very true, they are indeed very cheap items and ironically, we have lots in the box - the point being, we didn't use them because we didn't think we needed to!


We were also kept for about an hour whilst all of the checks were being made. We ended up missing the main class we were going for too.

The point is - we made a mistake (ironically bad advice from VOSA) - and it seems silly not to warn others who may be in a similar misunderstanding regarding the rules.


Of course, the other issue is that if tacho's are needed, then drivers hours are also relevant. Because we do other 'day jobs', we were advised to keep a diary in the cab explaining what hours were worked EVERY single day. Reading some other posts, I guess that might be good advice.
		
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 Alot of folk will have problems with drivers hours but I wonder how many people realy need a hgv unless they are carriage driving people ????


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## JackJill (19 February 2012)

Very true Perfect11s, we were parked at the side of an equally large vehicle over the weekend and it only had 1 horse in it.

To be honest, we moved away from a 7.5t box due to weight issues. There was no way we could get 3 horse, tack, fuel, water, etc in one and not be over weight. It wasn't worth the risk. Besides, we usually take 4 horses between us - and they definately wouldn't squeeze on a 7.5t box - which is a shame because at about 10 mpg, it's not cheap to run.


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## perfect11s (19 February 2012)

JackJill said:



			Very true Perfect11s, we were parked at the side of an equally large vehicle over the weekend and it only had 1 horse in it.

To be honest, we moved away from a 7.5t box due to weight issues. There was no way we could get 3 horse, tack, fuel, water, etc in one and not be over weight. It wasn't worth the risk. Besides, we usually take 4 horses between us - and they definately wouldn't squeeze on a 7.5t box - which is a shame because at about 10 mpg, it's not cheap to run.
		
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 Well there are sensibly priced 7.5 ton lorrys that will carry 4    or 3 with living 
plenty of cheap caravans if you need to stay over and someone can tow that with a reasonble car,,,  look up tristar horse boxes...


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## sarah23 (19 February 2012)

smurf said:



			Went all over the lorry and even asked if I had any rossets and that would be proof I was using the box for 'gain or reward' as a rosset is an award!
		
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I will be taking the few I have in my lorry out ASAP.


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## popsdosh (20 February 2012)

perfect11s said:



			Well there are sensibly priced 7.5 ton lorrys that will carry 4    or 3 with living 
plenty of cheap caravans if you need to stay over and someone can tow that with a reasonble car,,,  look up tristar horse boxes...
		
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Good advice there I am really surprised that more people have not gone down the route of towing a caravan or potentially a two horse trailer behind their 7.5t lorry as with the towing option on the licence you can legally go up to 11T train weight.


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## JackJill (20 February 2012)

perfect11s said:



			Well there are sensibly priced 7.5 ton lorrys that will carry 4    or 3 with living 
plenty of cheap caravans if you need to stay over and someone can tow that with a reasonble car,,,  look up tristar horse boxes...
		
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Whilst Im not doubting its possible, I would imagine it to be very unlikely. Most of our horses will be about 600kgs each, (an 18hh warmblood, a couple of 17.2hh irish sports horses, etc), so thats almost 2 tonne for 3 horses, 4 and youre heading for 2.5 tonnes. Throw in a couple of people with their tack and it mounts up. Then add water and fuel  1 litre of water/fuel weights 1 kg, so that also mounts up. Even without adding shavings, food, night rugs, etc for the horses (although I accept we probably only do the odd overnight stay per month) and youre well over. I would suggest its going to be very difficult to find a box that is less than 5 tonne unladen. Interestingly, the VOSA men clearly knew a little about horses, as they asked if they were hunters, eventers, etc and went on to say that most 7.5 tonne boxes carrying 2 cob type hunters are usually over weight. They had their scales in the boot, although didnt use them for us. He also said the mobile scales are not used for court prosecutions  I couldnt comment on this, as it was irrelevant to us.

Having a caravan and separate vehicle kind of defeats the object and the running cost must start to add up?

I guess ultimately, some things will be fine for one person thats not right for others. The key is to ensure you do everything properly  which we clearly didnt  although out of naivety/ignorance in our case.


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## perfect11s (20 February 2012)

popsdosh said:



			Good advice there I am really surprised that more people have not gone down the route of towing a caravan or potentially a two horse trailer behind their 7.5t lorry as with the towing option on the licence you can legally go up to 11T train weight.
		
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 Yes but I think its a differnt test to B+E you have to take a towing test useing a lorry as the tow vehicle to get the intitelment, we also need people to expect more from the lorry builders there is no reason for a 7.5 ton  horse box with a 20ft body staled for 3   to weigh more than  about 5 tons empty ......


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## perfect11s (20 February 2012)

JackJill said:



			Whilst Im not doubting its possible, I would imagine it to be very unlikely. Most of our horses will be about 600kgs each, (an 18hh warmblood, a couple of 17.2hh irish sports horses, etc), so thats almost 2 tonne for 3 horses, 4 and youre heading for 2.5 tonnes. Throw in a couple of people with their tack and it mounts up. Then add water and fuel  1 litre of water/fuel weights 1 kg, so that also mounts up. Even without adding shavings, food, night rugs, etc for the horses (although I accept we probably only do the odd overnight stay per month) and youre well over. I would suggest its going to be very difficult to find a box that is less than 5 tonne unladen. Interestingly, the VOSA men clearly knew a little about horses, as they asked if they were hunters, eventers, etc and went on to say that most 7.5 tonne boxes carrying 2 cob type hunters are usually over weight. They had their scales in the boot, although didnt use them for us. He also said the mobile scales are not used for court prosecutions  I couldnt comment on this, as it was irrelevant to us.

Having a caravan and separate vehicle kind of defeats the object and the running cost must start to add up?

I guess ultimately, some things will be fine for one person thats not right for others. The key is to ensure you do everything properly  which we clearly didnt  although out of naivety/ignorance in our case.
		
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 well look at a kevin parker or a tristar some of there lightweight boxes are about 4 tons empty and if you had a 7.5 ton that did 20mpg and a car towing a van doing 30 mpg it could be cheaper on fuel...


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## JackJill (20 February 2012)

perfect11s said:



			we also need people to expect more from the lorry builders there is no reason for a 7.5 ton  horse box with a 20ft body staled for 3   to weigh more than  about 5 tons empty ......
		
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Agreed, however the safety of the vehicle/construction cannot be reduced in order to achieve this. Interestingly, the Iveco website quotes their lightest 7.5 tonne chassis that can carry a 20' box as 4.4 tonnes. That's with NOTHING added to it, no people, no fluid, no sides, etc, etc and that's for a brand new modern vehicle. They quote the older models as 4.8 tonnes and above. That's a huge challenge to the coachbuilder.


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## popsdosh (20 February 2012)

perfect11s said:



			Yes but I think its a differnt test to B+E you have to take a towing test useing a lorry as the tow vehicle to get the intitelment, we also need people to expect more from the lorry builders there is no reason for a 7.5 ton  horse box with a 20ft body staled for 3   to weigh more than  about 5 tons empty ......
		
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I totally agree but they are all competing on price so wont use the lighter and hence more expensive materials. It is changing though ,in the past I have come across some Oakley 7.5s that weigh 8.25 empty .What I find extraordinary is that a lorry can pass its test with an over loaded axle even though most brake rollers are pretty accurate on axle weights.


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## perfect11s (20 February 2012)

JackJill said:



			Agreed, however the safety of the vehicle/construction cannot be reduced in order to achieve this. Interestingly, the Iveco website quotes their lightest 7.5 tonne chassis that can carry a 20' box as 4.4 tonnes. That's with NOTHING added to it, no people, no fluid, no sides, etc, etc and that's for a brand new modern vehicle. They quote the older models as 4.8 tonnes and above. That's a huge challenge to the coachbuilder.
		
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 Dont know where you got that from .....the average weight for a chassis cab that takes a 20ft body is about 3000 kg, those figures sound like about right for a ready to go dry freigt  grp box van with a tail lift!!!!


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## perfect11s (20 February 2012)

popsdosh said:



			I totally agree but they are all competing on price so wont use the lighter and hence more expensive materials. It is changing though ,in the past I have come across some Oakley 7.5s that weigh 8.25 empty .What I find extraordinary is that a lorry can pass its test with an over loaded axle even though most brake rollers are pretty accurate on axle weights.
		
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 Yes mad isnt it!!! mind i think the vosa testers are a different breed to the inforcement ones   I think the weight issue will  kill off the bodger builders , there is a lot of catching up for the industy to do now weight is important, my guess is  its 20 years behind the caravan and motor home builders!! remember how heavy but fragile caravans used to be they are half the weight now, roll on some engineering in the horse box industy ...


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## JackJill (20 February 2012)

Got the weights from the Iveco website, but the point of this thread is regarding caution about using tacho's, etc. Like some other people, we have an 18 tonne vehicle for a reason and won't be going back to a 7.5 tonne box, therefore ultimately the weights are not that relevant. 

The point is this - if you run something over 7.5 tonne, there is no such thing as a private HGV as far as tacho's, drivers hours, etc are concerned and due to our mistake, we offer a note of caution. Equally, the VOSA vehicle had mobile scales at their disposal, so IF weight might be an issue for you, again, be cautious. They told us of a local show they run as a 'strike/education' day and everything that comes out gets checked.


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## ROG (20 February 2012)

If you are someone who does not have a job and drive LGVs over 7.5 tonnes privately then have your NI number to hand on an official document/letter

You can then say to VOSA - Please check that out with the DWP if you do not believe I am not working.



JackJill said:



			Well, an interesting weekend for us  we got stopped by VOSA!

We got interrogated as to what we had on board, who owned them, where we were going and if there was any remote chance we might win a prize  cash or in kind.
		
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I can understand why they asked those questions but why they should be interested if you might win a small prize astounds me as that is already covered in ther own advice leaflet on this issue

The statement - I am transporting a friends horses, those friends are covering my expenses and they will probably win some small prizes - will not get anyone driving a private LGV over 7.5 tonnes into any trouble

Driving such a LGV without using the tacho, not conforming to EU drivers hours regs and having defects on the vehicle will get the driver into bother

In regards to the driver knowing what is required in regard to different laws then the driver is responsible for ensuring they know them but....
As there are not that many private LGVs over 7.5 tonnes then it should be possible for DVLA to send out a leaflet explaining a broad outline of such rules to the registered keeper

I wish there was something in the EU regs that allowed a country to opt for their own domestic rules to be applied for private LGVs over 7.5 tonnes as long as they were being used in that country


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## Mrs Pink (20 February 2012)

JackJill - just noticed you said you were held for over an hour, I'm presuming you had horses on? If that is the case, then as far as I understand, they cannot detain you for more than 20 minutes if you have livestock on board, always good to know if you are in a queue 

Agree with you on the weight front though, we had to go for 17 tonnes to carry 3 sometimes 4 as we could not find anything that would carry the horses and all the gear that went with them for an event, it was just impossible

ROG - completely agree


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## luckyoldme (20 February 2012)

Welcome to the world of 
vosa!!!
Im an ex long distance trucker and these little wannabe policemen were the bane of my life.
My oh left his depot the other day after doing the usual checks..and cleaning his lights and plates.
At the next service station he stopped for fuel.. the roads were filthy and at the same time as fuelling he had a walk round and checked the lights and plate again,,, cleaning both once more.
he returned to the pump and was approached by a vosa officer who asked him to pull off the pump for a check.
on pulling off the pump he was given a gv9 for a dirty plate.... it was clean but the officer insisted that it was dirty when he pulled into the service station so therefore warranted a gv9.
he then immediately lifted the gv9 but it still goes on the hauliers record. Both his boss and my oh have made an official complaint but these are the little tossers that hauliers have to deal with!
I reckon my bloke is a top trucker ... but evan he can t clean his number plate whilst driving!


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## blood_magik (20 February 2012)

Sounds like a horrible experience for you. 
I can't understand why VOSA would class a rosette as a reward though if you're using an HGV for private use  You've paid for your class, after all..


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## ROG (20 February 2012)

luckyoldme said:



			Welcome to the world of 
vosa!!!
Im an ex long distance trucker and these little wannabe policemen were the bane of my life.
My oh left his depot the other day after doing the usual checks..and cleaning his lights and plates.
At the next service station he stopped for fuel.. the roads were filthy and at the same time as fuelling he had a walk round and checked the lights and plate again,,, cleaning both once more.
he returned to the pump and was approached by a vosa officer who asked him to pull off the pump for a check.
on pulling off the pump he was given a gv9 for a dirty plate.... it was clean but the officer insisted that it was dirty when he pulled into the service station so therefore warranted a gv9.
he then immediately lifted the gv9 but it still goes on the hauliers record. Both his boss and my oh have made an official complaint but these are the little tossers that hauliers have to deal with!
I reckon my bloke is a top trucker ... but evan he can t clean his number plate whilst driving!
		
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There will be jobsworths or little hitlers in every aspect of enforcement and any normal reasonable officer would have easily determined that the muck was fresh and not hard dried on the number plate

In all of my LGV driving career I found 95+% of VOSA officials to be very good - unless the driver gives them attitude !!


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## soulfull (20 February 2012)

do you avoid all these checks if you have a 3.5t ?


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## Mrs Pink (20 February 2012)

Yes, lucky thing


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## luckyoldme (20 February 2012)

ROG said:



			There will be jobsworths or little hitlers in every aspect of enforcement and any normal reasonable officer would have easily determined that the muck was fresh and not hard dried on the number plate

In all of my LGV driving career I found 95+% of VOSA officials to be very good - unless the driver gives them attitude !!
		
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i could go on... like being pushed over a 15 hour day because the inspector is gutted that the cards are right and is desperate to find something.
The officer wouldn t be able to tell if it was fresh dirt or not because it was allready cleaned when he "inspected" it.
I don t agree with running bent ...  thats where they need to put their efforts.. not harassing profesional drivers doing their job in a profesional manner.
The laws are so complicated that the proffesional drivers struggle to get their heads round it... therefore you lot with your horse boxes are easy game to try and get a little bit of revenue in these desperate times.


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## soulfull (20 February 2012)

Mrs Pink said:



			Yes, lucky thing 

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I haven't bought one yet. not long sold my 7.5t.  only have one horse and as soon as he is better will be buying one.  I was leaning towards a 3.5t as it is easier for me as I am not in the best of health.  But no getting hassled by VOSA is the deciding factor 

I just need to find one where the horse area is totally separate from the living as don't want hay and slobber in there  for under £12k preferably under £10k  but don't like van types


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## Santa_Claus (20 February 2012)

3.5t are not totally exempt from being pulled up. They dont need a tacho or operators licence but they will be pulled up and weighed. They are often targetted because they are often overweight

and reading your last post I would go for a 5.5 or 6t if I was you. They have a bit more room and are more sturdy than the 3.5ts plus you won't have weight issues!


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## perfect11s (20 February 2012)

JackJill said:



			Agreed, however the safety of the vehicle/construction cannot be reduced in order to achieve this. Interestingly, the Iveco website quotes their lightest 7.5 tonne chassis that can carry a 20' box as 4.4 tonnes. That's with NOTHING added to it, no people, no fluid, no sides, etc, etc and that's for a brand new modern vehicle. They quote the older models as 4.8 tonnes and above. That's a huge challenge to the coachbuilder.
		
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 Yes I just  checked the iveco web site     sorry but  4.4 tons is what the CHASSIS can carry not its weight... from iveco's own spec the bare chassis is just over 3000kg .....


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