# DEBATE - Equine Chiropractors/Physio's etc



## Beanyowner (9 January 2007)

So come on then guys...had a discussion on Sunday with someone about equine chiropractors/physio's etc...just wondering what are all your thoughts on this method of treatment...

Do you think horses can 'put their back out'??
Do you think that Chiro's/physio's can produce some real results in aiding a horses recovery??

Discuss...


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## fizzer (9 January 2007)

always use a mctimoney for my lot and a sports massage therapist, keeps mine in tip top condition, am all for them


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## brightmount (9 January 2007)

I know people swear by these methods, but my own experience is that I have never seen any difference, much as I would LOVE to, because it would be so reassuring to be able to call someone out to fix a problem. The only method I can see the point of is physiotherapy where it involves exercises after injury. The other more vague practices seem (to be controversial) an expensive con 
	
	
		
		
	


	





*ducks*


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## Beanyowner (9 January 2007)

I actually agree Lynwood...my horse has recently had 2 visits from a McTimoney chiropractor which I am a little sceptic about anyway...and after a discussion on Sunday, and the chiro coming out again last night I feel that it may be an expensive con as well.
How can a human being claim to 'adjust' a horses pelvis?!?! How can someone who is suppose to understand equine skeletal anatomy tell me that my horse has 3 slightly 'rotated' vertebrae...now the last time I checked I didn't think they were able to rotate or move very far at all for that matter!

Anyone care to try and explain...


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## BBs (9 January 2007)

I think like humans horses can trap a nerve or twist something.
I know winston if he rolls funny in his stable he can come out very stiff, he can appear to be lame or pulling up short behind - and I also find him difficult to keep straight is another indication.
I have always had a chiropractor and she always made winston feel much better, although it didnt look like she did an awful lot.
However, in the autumn i used a chiropractor who used methods i had never seen (more of a physio) and she made a HUGE difference she also showed me what she was doing and showed me the before and the after which as very interesting.

I know, I suffer a lot with my back and whenever i go to my chiropractor they make a real difference, so if they can do it to me why not the horse?


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## truffles (9 January 2007)

Sorry, just a quickie - are chiropractors and physio the same thing?? Getting back person out, and obv want to get the most effective person out!! if they differ, in what way?

thanks very much, sorry for the post hijack


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## Ginn (9 January 2007)

I think horses can pull muscles just like we can and I think they enjoy a really good massage which will help relieve tension just like we do.

I don't think that, with the exception of extreme circumstances (a horse taking a hurdle at 35 mph and crashing through it into the ground for example) that a horse is going to "put its back out" and I also think that "slipping discs", "misaligned vetabrae" etc are damned near impossible to come across as the likely effect would be a crushed spinal chord and paraysis (same with humans!) And as for twisted pelvis's etc - you can develop muscles more on one side than another and this may give the impression that the pelvis is "misaligned" but actually thats all it it - an impression. I managed to wrench my sides and back years ago in a fall - the whole right side of my body tensed up and for ages I went around with one side of my pelvis "higher" than the other - it wasn't higher as such but the muscles were pulling everything closer on one side than the other and is was quickly sorted.

The only "back person" I would have see my horse would be a qualified physio on recommendation of my vet follwoing an investigated problem.

I would however happily treat Tilly to a good massage by a trained massuse as I know how much I enjoy one myself and it is wonderful for tired achy and tense muscles but I would not pretend that the back was being manipulated etc - you'd need several charging elephants and a lot of rope to have a chance of doing that!

IMO, "back problems" that require regular chiropractor treatments are usually tense backs that need a good massage and then I'd question why the back is always so tense? (Bad riding? poorly fitting saddle? too much work asked for level of fitness? etc). On referal from a vet after a thorough investigation is different and should be treated accordingly.

ETS: Are my suspicions on who this converstaion was with correct?


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## Madam_max (9 January 2007)

I know a lot of people who say their equine physio/chiro put their pelvis etc back. 





 .  I don't get that.  I have a physio who I swear by who has done wonders for Corroy, but she uses the H-Wave machine (I guess a deep massage).  She also does Pippa Funnells horses, so if she's good enough for her, she will be fine for Corroy.


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## Chex (9 January 2007)

I don't know much about chiros myself, only going by what my vet has told me. He didn't seem convinced by them, given the strength that would actually be needed to make a difference (ie humans not being strong enough). The only one he thought had worked is someone that uses hammer things.


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## samp (9 January 2007)

I had a chiro out once - never again, she told me what I already knew - pelvis not symmetrical and atlas/ axis (poll) rotated. However, she did very liitle too her charge £50 and for nothing IMO.

If my mare is a bit offish I will gladly get out an equine physio, this helps with muscle tightness etc. No one can manipulate a joint unless under heavy sedation. She always tells you what she is doing and doesn't waster your money. I never need a follow up, she just tells me to call her when I feel necessary


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## JACQSZOO (9 January 2007)

Thats something I've never understood - ther term rotated, whether that be in the poll or pelvis - what does it actually mean?


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## the watcher (9 January 2007)

I have used a chiro and a physio for my horses in the past and I could see results so I know it works. i also visit an osteopath for my back and can verify that facet bones out of place most certainly do cause pain and that they can be put back into place and the pain stops!


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## Ginn (9 January 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
I have used a chiro and a physio for my horses in the past and I could see results so I know it works.  

[/ QUOTE ]

Im not meaning to be rude but that is like saying "I went to a fortune teller and something she told me came true so I know she can see the future"

Often what we see, choose to see and visually interpret differ enormously to what is there. Yes it is very likely there was an improvement in your horse but how do you know that they didn't simply "work out a knot"?

If you take your finger and pull on it really hard, as hard as you possibly can, can you dislocate it? No? If you did you would literally be climbing the walls with pain and that in itself would take a great deal of force. The popping noise you may hear is just like taking two peices of cling fling that are stuck together and pulling them apart, as the air shifts you may hear a small pop. 

Now try moving the bones in a horses back..... Its hard enough on daed ones after you have removes much of the surrounding tissues let alone on a living one and if (but some stroke of genius) you do suceed think about the level of pain your horse would have to go through to achieve it!


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## puddicat (9 January 2007)

_ I know, I suffer a lot with my back and whenever i go to my chiropractor they make a real difference, so if they can do it to me why not the horse? _

Because horses are bigger, the arrangement of their musculoskeletal system is considerably different from humans, and there may be differences in their neural programming such that they perceive the effect of manipulation differently.  So it might have the same effect but there are sufficient differences for it not to be taken for granted.


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## puddicat (9 January 2007)

I reckon the earth is flat.  People keep telling me it's round but it's flat every time I look at it so why shouldn't I believe what I can see with my own eyes?


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## ru-fi-do (9 January 2007)

I had a Mctimoney Chiro to my mare last month, her atlas was misaligned(sp?), her pelvis was alos slightly out, which we already new from her vetting. Afeter she had been i had to do 2 weeks of working her over poles, gradually raising them until they were grids. I had had problems getting Shannon to work long and low, even just strecthing her neck was a problem and she did used to shake her head a fair bit when starting to engage. But now she works really well, will glady strectch her neck and is a lot more balanced, although i have put a lot of work into her scholling. So in this instance i think she has made a difference and do feel quite confident in her. I have used a different Chiro 9 months previous that came watched her move and said all OK, didn't even put her hands on her, wasn't impressed to say the least!


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## puddicat (9 January 2007)

Ahhhhh but....  if you've got asymmetrical muscle development the horse will look asymmetrical and quite possibly be most comfortable standing with its head at an angle so hence a wonky atlas.  You only need to do one thing and its very effective: "go and work your horse evenly on both sides for a few months". 

...that will be £250 please.


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## siennamum (9 January 2007)

Absolutely correct - couldn't agree more. 
I am infuriated by this subject and if I ever had a chiropractor who claimed to be manipulating or realigning a horses pelvis I would run a mile. It's a pretty sure sign of a charlatan in my eyes!!
I use Teresa Prithcard who must be a neighbour of yours T.
She fixes Sienna's trapped nerve, and rarely finds anything else to treat. I've also had a very good physio give S a sports massage as a Christmas treat (sad or wot!!) But I've known chiros cause terrible problems with excessive manipulation, when the problem was actually elsewehere!!!


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## Law (9 January 2007)

*long post alert*

I'm with the Watcher.  My horse suddenly went 'not right' he was complaining about making right turns in the arena, then in a large arena he was quite simply 'not right' other people who've known us for 18 months could see it within 5 minutes of warming up in a lesson.  I pulled him out of the lesson and went home.  That was it.  On the phone to the massage lady/physio and she came out and saw him.  What she did with him provided tangible results.  She took my through what she was doing step by step and told me what she was doing.  I could physically feel what she was doing. She also told me that she would rather I worked on the three small areas that she had identified  for 5 mins every day rather than her charge me £25 to come out and do it once for me.  She then came back a fortnight later and said she was really pleased with the difference in the muscle tone.  My horse was still not right and I had the vet come out with the intention of taking blood to see if there was something underlying wrong.  Vet saw him undersaddle and said, 'you are right, he's not happy is he' and then saw him lunged and could see that he was a lot happier and his action was fine.  He said that it was perhaps a waste of time to take blood and that i'd be better having a chiro look at him.   The saddler also came out and said that his saddle wasn't fitting and this was part of the problem. 
Massage/Physio lady was excellent and recommended a lady who she'd seen working so I booked her to come out. 

Chiro came and did lots of things with him, most of which he thoroughly enjoyed.  I'm sure we all know our horses well enough to know when they are enjoying something! She said that she was glad that i'd had physio out first because it gave her a better starting place ie. if his muscles were sore and she 'manipulated' something that moved into sore muscle it would not have helped in the slightest. She did some leg movements with him and within 15 mins he'd picked up no end and went out to the school like a spring lamb.  He had to be kept quiet for a day incase he hoolied around on his 'new' legs!

Here is the bit where I agree with some of the other comments.  She said he had a tiled and misaligned pelvis and as I understand it this is almost a dead cert for a chiro to say.  I should have put money on it really.  She tried to show me what she was on about and yes the way she showed it I could 'see' what she was on about but there is no way that I can see how she 'moved' it back.  In terms of neck vertebrae being misaligned I can see how that was true and how it was possible for them to be moved back, however, he quite often 'cricks' his neck by himself.  The final thing that she commented on was that there were vertebra in the back end (last one or two of lumbar and some sacral) which were out of line.  I could physically feel where they were 'out' and they were rather flatter when she adjusted them. 
Like I say, he went out like a spring lamb with a new body so I could 'see' the results. 
He's since been fitted with a new saddle and has been checked by chiro once since then (last feb) and she was happy with how he was.  Also she did not charge the earth; £30 for nearly an hour working with him!


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## ru-fi-do (9 January 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Ahhhhh but....  if you've got asymmetrical muscle development the horse will look asymmetrical and quite possibly be most comfortable standing with its head at an angle so hence a wonky atlas.  You only need to do one thing and its very effective: "go and work your horse evenly on both sides for a few months". 

...that will be £250 please. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you puddicat! Your cheque is on it's way!! 
	
	
		
		
	


	




No seriously that does make a lot of sense, i'm useless when it comes to things like Chiro stuff, thats why i always get in the 'expert'. Or so i like to think!


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## siennamum (9 January 2007)

You're absolutely right about the nerve thing - it's precisely what happened to Sienna and is infuriating and can only be treated effectively by a chiropractor.

What you find with a horse which appears unlevel, or has a misaligned pelvis is usually muscle spasms. It's very similar to spasms which we may get as a result of wearing high heels or an uneven pack. It can cause the horse to carry it's head or pelvis out of alignment. It isn't a change in the skeletal sctructure. In fact research has been carried out with dead horses to try and make the pelvis move out of its bed, (or sub-luxate)and it's proved impossible without plant machinery- it would be interesting to understand how a person could manage this by hand!!

If you have a back person out who treats a pelvic or similar issue, they are giving it a jolly good massage and it frees up the spasming muscles and makes the horse feel more comfortable for a few days.

What you aren't doing is treating the cause of the spasming muscles. Generally these are related to teeth, tack, poor riding, front lower limbs or feet, or hocks.

You continually treat a horse for a rotated pelvis and you are potentially damaging the ligaments and muscles and ignoring an underlying condition which is actually causing the horse pain!!!

Not saying you are doing this but I get hot under the collar on this subject!!


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## hollyzippo (9 January 2007)

Perhaps I am in a position to clear up a few queries!
I am a McTimoney Corley therapist. I also work at a vets and get referrals from not only work, but most of the surrounding practices.

The term 'out' should never be used by a practitioner although I am often informed things are 'out' by rather uneducated owners! (It stems from the older practitioners when training wasnt available I think).
Adjustments and manipulation actually dont try (or claim) to move the vertebrae. What they do is release the muscle spasm which is holding the vertebrae with a greater force on one side. Hence the spasm is released and the force pulling (not moving0 it has gone. 

A similar technique is used with limb/long lever adjustments. It is proven that bones are not clicked in and out (except a couple of cases) as in humans, but the muscle spasm causes the discomfort. This is what the adjustments relieve.

Personally, I have seen many horses who vets have been unable to diagnose a problem in.

Problems relieved include:
Unidentified lameness, unexplained rearing/bucking, stopping at jumps, assymetrical muscle build up, etc

P.M me if you have any other questions and I will try and clear them up


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## siennamum (9 January 2007)

Holly, what a breath of fresh air you are. I wish we had McTimony Corley practitioners down here are scrupulous as you.
I am a huge fan of McTimony and use a really good lady who, like you works closely with the vet.


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## Law (9 January 2007)

Thank you for posting that as I always feel awkward trying to support chiros as i don't fully understand how they do their work.  I should have said that the lady that i had out is a McTimoney Chiropractor.


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## puddicat (9 January 2007)

_ She took my through what she was doing step by step _

The problem with this is, unless you know whether or not the person is saying something that bears any resemblance to reality, they could be saying anything.  Bamboozling people with information they don't understand or can't evaluate for themselves is a well explored way of getting someone's confidence unreasonably.  I don't know what the answer is, ultimately I suppose there has to be some sort of trust.

It's an unfortunate fact that apart from physiotherapists, none of the handful of people I've met over the past few years that has claimed to know about a horses bones and muscles has ever managed to describe them or show them to me accurately on the live animal.  I think this is one of the reasons that vets are a little sceptical of such people.  Vets do detailed dissections and physiology as part of their training and there is really no substitute if you want to know where things are and what they do.


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## puddicat (9 January 2007)

_ She said he had a tiled and misaligned pelvis and as I understand it this is almost a dead cert for a chiro to say. _

Yeah, you know if you go to a fortune teller he/she says things like "hmmm I can see you've had illness in the family" because the chances of it being wrong are zero and the punter thinks its mind reading or whatever.  Well the pelvis is the horse equivalent.  Virtually all if not all horses have asymmetric pelvises to some degree and even the ones that don't look as if they do if you're not very very careful how you stand them up.

Is it a problem?  I suppose other horses might think your horse is gay but apart from that...


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## Law (9 January 2007)

[ QUOTE ]


The problem with this is, unless you know whether or not the person is saying something that bears any resemblance to reality, they could be saying anything.  Bamboozling people with information they don't understand or can't evaluate for themselves is a well explored way of getting someone's confidence unreasonably.
*I think you have hit the nail on the head- thankfully, I had done a degree in equine science and did know what she was talking about (albeit a little rustily!) (apologies for bold but can't work out how to make it not a quote)!* 

  I don't know what the answer is, ultimately I suppose there has to be some sort of trust.
*This is also true, I knew her from another client, she runs a successful stud and has a clear empathy and understanding of horses.  Her demeanor and way of treating them spoke volumes.* 



It's an unfortunate fact that apart from physiotherapists, none of the handful of people I've met over the past few years that has claimed to know about a horses bones and muscles has ever managed to describe them or show them to me accurately on the live animal.  I think this is one of the reasons that vets are a little sceptical of such people.  Vets do detailed dissections and physiology as part of their training and there is really no substitute if you want to know where things are and what they do. 

[/ QUOTE ] 

I agree with you here as well.  Having done a science degree you can sometimes learn to take a more scientific approach where as this is a more holistic subject in a sense (in as much as without the horse speaking or writing down how he feels, how can we tell whether it works!) 

the element of trust is an interesting point- i didn't know the chiropractor at all so it was difficult for me to believe what she was saying about the pelvis etc.


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## siennamum (9 January 2007)

Hi C, will you pm me the name of the person you've used.
Sounds so ropey to me, I can recommend a really good local physio to you (Lou simmons) and a couple of good Mc Timony Chiros, but I assume this treatment is following on from a vet's referral?


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## hollyzippo (9 January 2007)

I did an Equine Science degree before starting the course so feel my Anatomy and Physiology knowledge is pretty comprehensive. we then re-did all of this on McTimoney Corley course. In some areas - muscles mainly- I have studied them more thoroughly than some of the vets at work.


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## puddicat (9 January 2007)

I liked your post and I think it was very measured, carefully worded and clear.  I may PM you some questions sometime if that's OK...


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## dieseldog (9 January 2007)

The last lady we used was very good.  She said it was impossible for a horse to put its back out as the muscles holding the back in place are just too strong to allow any movement and a horse spine just isn't the same as a humans. Also asymetrical pelvis is usually caused by a problem with the horses hocks.

She did a lot on Spot who is conformationally challenged, but our other 2 had nothing wrong with them.


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## Beanyowner (9 January 2007)

Hi hollyjz...

Thankyou for volonteering yourself for questions!! I have a few...

So I have heard McTimony practitioners use the term 'misaligned'...what does this mean exactly?!?
How much variation is there in a vertebrae misalignment? Are we talking milimetres here?!?!?!
What kind of impact can this sort of tiny variation have on a horses locomotor system?

I am currently a 3rd year Equine Science student and have had talks from McTimony and other equine therapists...I am one of those annoying people who asks lots of questions at all the trade shows! 
	
	
		
		
	


	




  I would like to get your 'slant' on things!! 
	
	
		
		
	


	





Thanks.


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## puddicat (9 January 2007)

can I add a bit to that:  

How do you feel the vertebral mis-alignment - is it through lateral displacement of a dorsal spinous process in the thorax/lumbar regions ?

If so the muscles stabilising the vertebrae against rotation (transversospinalis) are very small, not superficial and well buried so presumably you can have no effect on them?  

Again, if so, can you give me an example of a muscle that can be manipulated that would have an effect on vertebral allignment?


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## sojeph (9 January 2007)

I've no idea because in 20+ yrs in horses I've never used one or even needed to consider it. Maybe I'm just lucky?


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## hollyzippo (9 January 2007)

Puddicat- no worries any Q's fine, will do my best!!

Beanyowner- Misaligned, as far as I see it, is when you are looking at uneven forces caused by the muscle spasms. Vertebae are not wonky along the back like they are in people (when they can form an S shape). Pelvis' can be spasms tightly to one side or another- be it as a result of another lameness issue or a fall. Often I see them from bad riding- ie one side is made stronger by the rider having a stronger rein. 
Same goes with atlas alignment- again one muscle is stronger. nearly all of them I see if its assymmetric it is to the right- right handed riders (which most of us are guilty of if right handed) hang on that side and build the muscle up as even the best schooled horse learns to resist a very strong hand!!

As for measurements- no one knows for certain as no money to invest in study but believes to be &lt; 1 mm, certainly not much more as otherwise would cause impingement on spinal cord and possible paralysis- this is rare. Wobblers is due to this sort of impingement not usually through rotation of the vertebrae. 
 Hence a fractional mm of movement as is usually seen is believed to be corrected by preventing the muscle pull/spasm on the effected vertebrae. Higher degrees of movement such as in a high speed fall usually result in damage to the spinal cord as described above.

Sorry for long post everyone! hope this helps !


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## the watcher (9 January 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have used a chiro and a physio for my horses in the past and I could see results so I know it works.  

[/ QUOTE ]

Im not meaning to be rude but that is like saying "I went to a fortune teller and something she told me came true so I know she can see the future"

Often what we see, choose to see and visually interpret differ enormously to what is there. Yes it is very likely there was an improvement in your horse but how do you know that they didn't simply "work out a knot"?

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, it may well have been that simple..but it was 'knot working' that I am neither knowledgable or qualified to accomplish, and restored a horse that had been carrying her nearside hind to more even working..with some simple exercises given to me to keep that particlar limb/joint moving freely.

We all have different areas of expertise, I am happy to have a 'back person' out that I trust to relieve pain and improve my horse, because this is not a subject I have studied...if they turn up with crystals and candles I will take a different view.


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## samp (9 January 2007)

The atlas and axis are 2 connecting joints in the poll. The should be straight, however if you feel your horses poll you will often feel one higher than the other.

Pelvis - if you stnad behind you'd she 1 stifle etc higher than the otherside.  The horse would look lopsidded. My mare has always had it and the vet feels was born like it


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## hollyzippo (9 January 2007)

Its mostly through pressure on the dorsal spinous process and whether or not this causes a muscle flicker or pain response.

By causing a reverberation down the vertebrae (from the dorsal process) this spreads through the transverse process' too. Consequently large, often highly stressed muscles such as the latissimus dorsi and epaxial  have spasms relieved.


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## puddicat (9 January 2007)

_ Sorry for long post everyone! hope this helps  _ 

no worries its a short post compared to some of mine!

I'm wondering now whether there is ambiguity in how you define spasm.  I agree with the examples you give in the neck and lumbar region but uneven work would alter the stretched and possibly resting length of muscle irrespective of whether there was spasm.  I think this is pretty common but at one time people would just take it that they should work their horse evenly, indeed this is still the answer, manipulation won't help because lengthening muscle needs sustained loading of a magnitude appropriate to its size - for a horse this is pretty bit. 

I'd need a lot of convincing that you can feel movement of a fraction of a mm!  The vertebrae do move several mm during locomotion, this has been measured several times and if you PubMed "Horse spine kinematics" you'll get the abstracts.


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## squirtlysmum (9 January 2007)

Like everything in life you get good and bad in all sphere's, my horse has been treated by some thoroughly mediocre 'back people' who have not listened to a word I've said to my current excellent Physio who most definatly makes a difference and listens to me.
As for 'can horses put their backs out' - as long as they have muscles and bones be sure something can go wrong!!


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## hollyzippo (9 January 2007)

Yes, they dont move several mm but fractions as I stated above. And I am not claiming to feel movement of the vertebrae, again as I stated, I am looking for discomfort when pressure is applied.

I think the thing is, as you described, consistant, symmetrical working is the ideal, not the usual.

If a horse is treated following a problem or 6-12 monthly for a check up I always give exercises to establish a better/more muscle build up. This is what prevents a problem from re-occuring. 

If you need convincing that is fine, thats not part of my job! I am just informing you of what I have learnt following 5 years of study. What you choose for your own horse is up to each owner once they have been given the facts. I am happy that the level of vet referrals I receive is proportionate to the success of the treatment.


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## puddicat (9 January 2007)

This is where is starts to get hazy for me and I think great as HHO is, its the sort of thing that need a good evening discussing in the pub to sort out rather than posts.  I don't think you answered my question but this might be the answer:

_ By causing a reverberation down the vertebrae (from the dorsal process) this spreads through the transverse process' too. Consequently large, often highly stressed muscles such as the latissimus dorsi and epaxial have spasms relieved._

so three points then:

1) I suppose this could depend on how you define reverberation but the usual definition is a series of echoes.  If the image you have is sending a mechanical stimulus through the vertebrae and the vertebrae reverberates that's wrong on all counts and can be shown quite easily.  There are 3 reasons (1) a big enough mechaical stimulus can't be generated unless you hit the horse with a crow bar  (2) bone is very stiff so mechanical waves propogate very fast (3) bone and muscle have a lot of internal damping. (2) and (3) together mean that energy from a mechanical stimulus, were it sufficient to propagate down the dorsal spinous process would be dissipated within. milliseconds.  Any sense of a 'reverberation' due to sympathetic movement in responce to manipulation would most likely arise from a spinal arc refles in response to pressure.  There is pathway for this along the dorsal and ventral midline of the horse and its well known.

2) Unless I'm missing something its impossible to know if spasms are present or have been relieved in the deep muscles wherever they are ???

3) that word 'consequently'!  there isn't anything in the first part of the sentence that has been shown to have the consequence of relieving spasm but it has been looked for in many research studies.  The aponeurosis of L. dorsi is spread along several vertebrae so the likelihood of transmitting a mechanical stimulus to an apprechiable part of it through localised stimulation of the back is effectively zero isn't it ???  That's not to say there isn't a mechanism somewhere, but it's not that one!

sorry - its great to get into a discussion about these things but this is what happens!


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## hollyzippo (9 January 2007)

Interesting points, I agree that HHO isnt ideal as I am supposed to be at work and not defending the merits of my profession but hey!

With the limited money put into veterinary research as a whole, surely spinal adjustments as with many other veterinary treatments are only up for debate due to the fact that the success is measured purely by the horse's response.

Except where scanning/MRI/x ray etc can confirm the success, unfortunately for all of us the success of many treatments has to be assumed. And unfortunately x rays are expensive so cant be used in all cases. Eg, pus in the foot. We assume that if the horse gets sounder after poultice etc, thats it. Do we KNOW there isnt a tract going through a foot structure such as pedal bone? No, but if horse goes sound we assume its ok.

So if back pain is relieved by treatment as described, we (as a profession) assume its from release of muscle spasm or removal of painful stimuli etc. 

If someone wants to volunteer more money to put force transducers etc into muscles then treatment may be able to be improved even further to be completely targeted to a particular site. Otherwise, a generalised treatment and further treatment on particular areas as needed is the only alternative to drug relief that I can see.


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## puddicat (9 January 2007)

_ If you need convincing that is fine, thats not part of my job! _ 

Not really I'm just curious whether there is any evidence of something going on that hasn't got a perfectly rational and boring alternative explanation.  The fact you get vet referrals is significant because I agree it does mean you are perceived to be having a beneficial effect.  One could argue that's all that matters.


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## shadowboy (10 January 2007)

I am of a similar opinion, i was told once that it is a hell of a job to put a pelvis back in line by one of the UK best lameness specialists, yet my chiro seemed to be able to do it by just pulling his leg up and forward. Impressive hmmm? I never know what to think with these things. And since she has been there has been no improvement in my horses behaviour/work. Also i was once told by a so called physio that i needed to burn my horses stifels with high % iodine in order to draw the blood to heal them!!!!!!!! there proved to be nothing wrong with them anyway (as revealed by a scintigraphy scan) all i ended up with was  horse who is touchy with his stifles.


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## CLS. (10 January 2007)

Went over to see my friends horses being worked on by a physio on Sunday and it was marvellous to watch!  Lots of yawning and licking and sleepy faces throughout the sessions.  Everything she said made lots of sense and the horses thoroughly enjoyed it.  She also used a magnetic pulse/massage rug on one of them which was also much appreciated and a hand held lazer/pulse machine for some areas the rug didnt cover.  I was most impressed and her recommendations are being followed up.  It was more of an full MOT than a massage incredibly thorough.


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## hollyzippo (10 January 2007)

Think you may have had therapists talking about different things Shadowmonkey. To change the position of the pelvis would be beyond difficult- this is what happens in nasty racing falls/fractures and it actually moves.
Other practitioner probably referring to assymmetry from muscle build up- adjustments can relieve muscle tension not move the structure. (unless ur king kong maybe!?!)

As for iodine- never heard of that one! Doesnt sound like something many neddies would put up with!! Was this an older practitioner? Perhaps an old fashioned pre- laser invention technique??!


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## puddicat (10 January 2007)

Quote: Was this an older practitioner?

Yeah was it someone born in about 1730 ?


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## puddicat (10 January 2007)

Quote: To change the position of the pelvis would be beyond difficult.

So eloquently put and so beatifully understated....

...but it leaves room for misinterpretation so let me have a go:

NO YOU CAN'T REPLACE OR REALIGN THE SODDING PELVIS BY PULLING THE HORSES LEG. NOT AT ALL, NOT EVEN A LITTLE BIT, NOT EVEN A VERY VERY LITTLE BIT.  There is absolutely no exception to this under any circomstances.  It is impossible, not very difficult, IMPOSSIBLE that means it CAN'T BE DONE by anybody, It doesn't matter who they are, it could be the Archbishop of Cantebury but the pelvis will stay right where it was before he gave it the holy leg pulling.

there, I think that's reasonably clear


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## Lucy_Ally (10 January 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Quote: To change the position of the pelvis would be beyond difficult.

So eloquently put and so beatifully understated....

...but it leaves room for misinterpretation so let me have a go:

NO YOU CAN'T REPLACE OR REALIGN THE SODDING PELVIS BY PULLING THE HORSES LEG. NOT AT ALL, NOT EVEN A LITTLE BIT, NOT EVEN A VERY VERY LITTLE BIT.  There is absolutely no exception to this under any circomstances.  It is impossible, not very difficult, IMPOSSIBLE that means it CAN'T BE DONE by anybody, It doesn't matter who they are, it could be the Archbishop of Cantebury but the pelvis will stay right where it was before he gave it the holy leg pulling.

there, I think that's reasonably clear







[/ QUOTE ]

PMSL!  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 What not even a tiny little incy wincy bit?!


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## hollyzippo (11 January 2007)

I think saying something can't be done is enough for the average adult to understand the point. 
I know that some people consider themselves to be (in their own opinion) above average intelligence, however, there isn't any need to patronise other readers. I think it was clear enough in my original post.


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## Sooty (11 January 2007)

I don't believe that chiropractic has any sort of lasting result, and bones cannot be manipulated. If a horse's vertebra was 'out', the horse would be in agony and probably unable to move. Funnily enough I was discussing this with the vet recently, and he takes a very dim view of it.


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## puddicat (11 January 2007)

_Quote: I think saying something can't be done is enough for the average adult to understand the point _

Yes, obviously, so one has to decide whether I'm really having a rant or just being daft.  And the answer is... just being daft as usual, dry humour admittedly but the clues are (1) that it's so completely over the top as you said and (2) the smiling emoticon.

_I think it was clear enough in my original post._

Not in my view, "beyond difficult" is ambiguous, it could mean 'very difficult', 'extremely difficult' or 'impossible'.  It just adds to the general confusion about the subject and think it's good to be as clear as possible about things that are known beyond all reasonable doubt. Sorry if you felt patronised, the compliment was genuine, as I said previously I like the way you use language carefully and 'beyond difficult' is a nice phrase.  I don't think you have to be intelligent to patronise people, I'm quite stupid but I still manage it.


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## Sooty (11 January 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
I've no idea because in 20+ yrs in horses I've never used one or even needed to consider it. Maybe I'm just lucky? 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

This may make me unpopular, but I think nowadays the horse world, like so many other areas, has become a popular target for businesses. The idea of seasonal trends in clothes for horses and riders is relatively new, and all designed to relieve horse owners of their money. So the same goes for a horse's health. Years ago, if a horse wasn't 'right', it would be rested, and if still not right, the vet would be called. Nowadays people have a larger pool of equine professional to choose from than just a farrier and a vet, and caring owners are keen to try something that may help their horse. If a horse has a muscle in spasm it will right itself if given time. I am not sure if you are lucky, maybe just sensible!


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## Law (11 January 2007)

I'm of this opinion too- i think if muscles cause problems around vertebra (as it seems to be the case) then fixing it will not have a lasting effect.  Hence I think it is worth having it checked every year along with teeth.

I think that there is a great lack of clarity concerning what is actually being carried out by the chiro.  All the things that I have been told have been mostly impossible or require divine intervention or a winch/pulley/crane.  It appears that if the chiro had been a bit clearer then I would not have been putting forward such a preposterous notion about vertebra being 'misaligned' or 'out'.  It makes a lot more sense now to me having heard what 'actually' happens.


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## puddicat (11 January 2007)

I agree very much with this.  Its not that long ago that horses didn't have bad backs becuase it never occured to anybody.  If horses looked muscle sore you rested them or if they were uneven you worked them properly.  If I ask myself "did I and all the people I know miss the signs of back pain in horses for years before a whole new profession started pointing it out to us", the answer has to be 'no'!


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## hollyzippo (11 January 2007)

Glad it makes more sense to you Lau. I try and talk through what I am doing with all my clients and answer as many questions as they want to ask. I also agree that yearly checks are best.

Sooty- Rest or correct working after a muscle problem may put a condition right, but treatment is often recommeded- as by a vet and then correct work to follow. As above, yearly checks along with teeth are ideal and work on prevention rather than cure - much better all round I think


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## hollyzippo (11 January 2007)

I think the thing that nobody has mentioned here is that horses were not put on this planet to be ridden! And certainly not in a 20 x 40 arena or over 4 foot hedges at speed. Also not meant to do grids, driving, polo etc etc . So really very tolerant of what we throw at them!  
	
	
		
		
	


	





So to me it makes perfect sense that putting usually between 8-15 stone plus a saddle on them and expecting them to do any of the above is sure to create problems. 

How they are resolved is obviously a hot topic and wont be ageed on- rest would be fine in an ideal world. Racehorse trainers tho, for eg want them to race 1 week after a fall and they need to be in training for the few days prior to next race. So (although an extreme and rather frustrating eg!) rest isnt an option. They race either way, in pain or not- I opt for the not option and try to persuade them that the horse would be happier long term (and better in the future races!) if it had chance to be put right!

Surely everyone has to agree that the forces put on a horse are going to cause spinal problems in nearly all of them at one time?!


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## vicijp (11 January 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I've no idea because in 20+ yrs in horses I've never used one or even needed to consider it. Maybe I'm just lucky? 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

This may make me unpopular, but I think nowadays the horse world, like so many other areas, has become a popular target for businesses. The idea of seasonal trends in clothes for horses and riders is relatively new, and all designed to relieve horse owners of their money. So the same goes for a horse's health. Years ago, if a horse wasn't 'right', it would be rested, and if still not right, the vet would be called. Nowadays people have a larger pool of equine professional to choose from than just a farrier and a vet, and caring owners are keen to try something that may help their horse. If a horse has a muscle in spasm it will right itself if given time. I am not sure if you are lucky, maybe just sensible! 

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont know about the difference between then and now. I think just a lot more people are more knowledgable than they were a few years ago (or think they are - 'a little bit of knowledge is worse than having none').
My dad has used the same Physio for 20 years. Fully qualified and doesnt talk crap and charge the earth.


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## Dovorian (11 January 2007)

The human version didn't work for me either -  complete waste of money but at the time I had a bad back and was on the 'desperate' trail!


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## puddicat (11 January 2007)

_ So to me it makes perfect sense that putting usually between 8-15 stone plus a saddle on them and expecting them to do any of the above is sure to create problems.  _

Well it does superficially but not if you consider it more carefully.  On has to be careful about using the fact that horse's weren't created/evolved to carry riders to infer anything about the detrimental effect of the rider.  It does not necessarily follow that injury will result.  Neither does it necessarily follow that jumpin 4' hedges, polo, grids etc cause the rider to apply forces that are any more  detrimental that those in sitting trot (say).  Animals are able to do all sorts of things that they weren't evolved for without negative consequences and I think maybe you've got to understand the relevant body systems in enough detail to know how it is possible before you can predict whether it may be detrimental. 

_ Surely everyone has to agree that the forces put on a horse are going to cause spinal problems in nearly all of them at one time?! _

Nope, I don't agree.  You're right in the sense that if you apply enough force to anything it will break - but that's not very helpful because it's a self evident truth!  If you narrow it down to the forces that act on the spine as a result of normal reacreational riding activity then you have to know what those forces are and the strength of the spine to be able to say whether they are likely to cause damage. Otherwise you're just guessing!


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## puddicat (11 January 2007)

Quote: My dad has used the same Physio for 20 years

I'm presuming your dad wasn't a horse tho'


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## vicijp (11 January 2007)

No, but has 50 plus of them at any one time.


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## puddicat (11 January 2007)

Oh I see - he used the physio on the horses, sorry I thought it was for him!!


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## vicijp (11 January 2007)




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## catembi (11 January 2007)

I was sceptical too, until I had Richard Maxwell work on my horse.  He knew without me telling him (from examining him) that Cat found it v hard to canter left without outside bend.  A lot of pulling &amp; pushing followed...&amp; the next time I tried a circle in left canter, I asked for inside bend...&amp; got it.  My riding didn't improve 500% in a couple of days, nor did his schooling.  It was as if an obstacle was suddenly removed.  Not sure of all the science or anatomy behind this, but it certainly worked breathtakingly well.


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## Beanyowner (12 January 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Quote: To change the position of the pelvis would be beyond difficult.

So eloquently put and so beatifully understated....

...but it leaves room for misinterpretation so let me have a go:

NO YOU CAN'T REPLACE OR REALIGN THE SODDING PELVIS BY PULLING THE HORSES LEG. NOT AT ALL, NOT EVEN A LITTLE BIT, NOT EVEN A VERY VERY LITTLE BIT.  There is absolutely no exception to this under any circomstances.  It is impossible, not very difficult, IMPOSSIBLE that means it CAN'T BE DONE by anybody, It doesn't matter who they are, it could be the Archbishop of Cantebury but the pelvis will stay right where it was before he gave it the holy leg pulling.

there, I think that's reasonably clear







[/ QUOTE ]

PMSL!!! I think thats about clear enough PC!!


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## Beanyowner (12 January 2007)

Oh and here we go then...so after 2 lots of 'treatment' (term is being used loosly)...Beany is now sound and coming back into work...the abck end seems to 'feel' more connected to the front end again and I am obviously happy with the results.

So...............is this because of the 'treatment' that has been done on his back or the rest time he had while I went away for the christmas holidays...hmmm...well I guess I will never know, perhaps it may be a conjunction of the two...not the 'clicking abck into place bit' but maybe because of the massage that was done on his superficial muscles while the treatment was taking place...?!?!? Who knows!

I am however inclined to think it was because of the rest...but perhaps I was being one of those 'owners' rather than the science student, and needed to be told what to do for silly amounts of money! Ahh well...


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## puddicat (13 January 2007)

I'm glad the ned has got better, of of course he would do that anyway.

I'm interested in your comment because its very true that people do equine science and they own horses and there's a sort of invisible bounday between the two things.  There shouldn't be.  The whole point is an applied science degree should help you know what to do with your horse.  In this case for exampe, the scientific argument would be to leave the neddy alone and it will get better and you will be £*** better off.  That's an example of how education gives you a better life outcome because you could use that money for other things such as chocolate.


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## Beanyowner (13 January 2007)

I think I have learnt a lesson from this little escapade...must trust my thoughts a little more and not turn into the 'owner' when things go wrong...actually apply what I am spending all this money to learn!!!! 
	
	
		
		
	


	





But yes I totally agree on your comment...I think it is a common fault of Equine Science students, I still find it amazing how I come across people on my course who can't put on a poultice let alone think about whether a back man would work or not!!!! 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 Problem is...Hartpury promotes equine chiro's/physios etc within their lectures...and do not even cover the aspect of its affects on the equine back and if it actually works!


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## LEC (13 January 2007)

I am the most sceptical person on earth about physios but I noticed a real difference in my horse one day - he was so stiff in his left rein and this was over night. I felt it was shoulder/neck. Rang a few people and had some recommendations and had a lady come out she said he was a bit stiff with a tight muscle which she worked on and said he was absolutely fine and would have very few problems. If he did have a problem he would tell me. I think this relieved some of my sceptisism.


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## puddicat (13 January 2007)

I think trusting in your own judgement putting scientific knowledge into practice is a very difficult thing to do and I could go on about it for ages but I won't 
	
	
		
		
	


	





I think also you've hit the nail right on the head when you say about getting lectures in chiropracty (for eg).  It totally defeats the object of he degree - the object of any science degree is to try to get people to view the world through scientific eyes.  So you can invite therapists in, but the phrase 'throwing christians to the lions' comes to mind.  IF they've done their biochemistry and physiology homework, a final year science student should be able to dismiss most of the things therapists say as nonsense immediately on the basis of good evidence.  If all you're asked to do is make notes on the therapists lecture and believe it, that is totally going against what it is to be a scientist.


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## puddicat (13 January 2007)

Yes this is what many people say and it's why the use of therapists propagates, people believe it, and most of all they are satisfied with the results so I have to say best of luck to them!

There are however lots of problems with the sort of observation you on your physio experience. I'm happy to go through them but I think I've bored people on HHO enough with them previously perhaps not.

The best illusions are breathtakingly convincing and very difficult to deconstruct.  I'd recommend anyone to watch Derren Brown and try to explain how achieves the seemingly impossibly things he does.  There is very definitely illusion in horse therapy, you can deconstuct it into the same elements that con merchants and magicians the world over use.  What interests me is whether there is also something genuine going on and if so what.  

Its hard to work out because most of the therapists I've met believe what they do i.e. they are fooled by their own illusion - this is a good thing I suppose because otherwise they would be being deceitful.  It is also true that when you start stripping away the illusion and try to get objective about what they re doing, they run away very fast indeed.  And why not! Who would want the practice from which they earn a a living shown to be pointless if there is a ready market for it?


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## henryhorn (13 January 2007)

Over the years we have tried many, Tex Gamble came out to a mare who previously had always got up after lying down by sitting up like a dog. He said her pelvis was not straight, virtually lifted her up and manipulatedher and she was able to get up normally after that. He is an unqualified chap but worked miracles on all four he saw for us. None ever had the problems re-occur.
We have had qalified physios who were worse than useless, some are great, but the best one of all hs been McTimoney, not only did she fix the horses but the dog too, it suddenly lost about 5 years in terms of mobility and energy!
Our own vet specialises in backs and is good, but would call in our McT person first.


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## hollyzippo (15 January 2007)

Thanks Henryhorn.... I quite agree 
	
	
		
		
	


	





I speak to clients every week who say this. Seems unlikely to me that all of us are deluding ourselves with wanting to believe its worked/the animal is better. (Mostly equine but also dogs).

Glad you are happy with the results and horses/dog is now better


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## the watcher (15 January 2007)

I stayed out of this one for a while because quite frankly I was very cross at the conceit of anybody suggesting that if you are not an equine science student or similar you are clearly a lemming who is deluding themselves as to the value of alternative treatment.

I have used chiropractors and physios for 20 years or so. I am sufficiently educated to see when a horse is using itself properly and when it is not. I have seen horses give massive sighs and relax during treatment when they have previously been permanently tense through muscles. I am not naive enough to believe that major skeletal shifts are taking place, and fully accept that 'unevenness' is most likely to be inbalance in muscles.

As I said before, these are people who have studied for years and are qualified in a way I am not..and I can see the positive outcome of their work..to suggest it is all smoke and mirrors is not a debate, it is insulting to fellow professionals IMO


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## hollyzippo (15 January 2007)

Well said


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## Beanyowner (15 January 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
I stayed out of this one for a while because quite frankly I was very cross at the conceit of anybody suggesting that if you are not an equine science student or similar you are clearly a lemming who is deluding themselves as to the value of alternative treatment.



[/ QUOTE ]

That is not what is being implied at all...I was just asking what everyones thought were on the subject as there are grey areas for me...and as I am an equine science student and suppose to be learning this stuff, some of it didn't seem to add up in my head.
Puddicat's comments were just advising me on my error to not put the knowledge I had into practice more. It is true that there are some very knowledgable horse owners with no qualifications....but there are some really stupid ones as well who will believe anything as long as it is packaged nicely...and that applies to supplements, feeds, gadgets as well...not just practitioners!


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## hussar (16 January 2007)

(Using QR) I'm coming to this one very late, but I've used an equine physio on my two horses every six weeks for the past 4 years. She's very open and honest about what she can and can't do; where she is invaluable is spotting muscle irregularities that highlight an underlying problem. Eg, she noticed a week before a foot abscess erupted that the shoulder muscles of that leg were very tense although there was no discernible lameness.

She would never claim to be able to manipulate/adjust anything skeletal - it's all to do with muscle, as others have said.

The horses love her working with them and usually either go to sleep or mutually groom her!


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## Emily99 (16 January 2007)

I haven't read all the posts... although the one's i have are really interesting 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 it's nice to see an 'insiders' view!

My physio is based with one of my trainers (They run a sport horse breeding stud) as well as holding massage, physio and rehab clinics and lectures. My old mare wasn't quite right at a clinic i was at, physio was on the yard and came to watch me work her to see if she could see anything as she was there. She had a look at her, and found she was tight on side of her back which was affected the movement of the opposite fore. We'd recently had a fall XC which tied in to the same side. (Vet had been out etc) She treated her.. and refused to take money for it.

We've taken a few horses back for other reasons, one for a check up where she found nothing wrong so charged a tenner, and others where she's done normal massage, electo accupuncture etc and we'ver never been charged more then £30. And each time whichever horse has come back into work a day or two after and each time theres been an improvement.


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## dressagespain (16 January 2007)

Interesting debate!! So here is my 2 pences worth!!

I have used a chiropractor in the UK (can't find one out here) and was pleased with the result. She also helped a mare on the same yard and the owner was equally pleased with the result.

In Spain, I have used and continue to use 2 things in conjunction - my physio woman and a magnetic rug. I must say with great success and the horses love it. The 2 both help to relax the muscles on the horses and allow them to work much more freely. I also add a good quality glucosamin supplement to the feeds.

I have seen an equine shiatsu person in action and was quite disappionted but i must say i don't know much about human ones so maybe it was just the person. SHe didn't seem overly knowledgeable about horses and didn't do anything I couldn't have done myself.

I do think alternative therapies have a place in the horse world but it depends entirely on the individual case. Don't dismiss it before you have tried it!!


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## puddicat (16 January 2007)

_ I stayed out of this one for a while because quite frankly I was very cross at the conceit of anybody suggesting that if you are not an equine science student or similar you are clearly a lemming who is deluding themselves as to the value of alternative treatment. _

If you read what I've said carefully you'll discover I was questioning 'physiologcal effect' not 'value' and I've said if people think it works, it has a value and I have no problem or particular interest in that.  When it comes to 'effect', if you have not studied science it is easy to be deluded (end of story).  Not only is this idea fundamental to our understanding of the physical world it is rooted in centuries of phylosophy and supported by an overwhelming amount of evidence from all sorts of directions. The mistake I make is to be blatant about it, which might have its down side but the thread has &gt;700 hits and 80 posts so it's not a complete conversation killer. 
	
	
		
		
	


	





_ to suggest it is all smoke and mirrors is not a debate, it is insulting to fellow professionals _

Well OK you miss the subtlety of what I said but let's suppose it is largely 'smoke and mirrors'.  Let's suppose that after you've had a degree level education in science you can see the smoke and mirrors and explain simply and clearly how they work to create an illusion.  You've learnt a belief system which leaves you no option to dismiss some actions of therapists as nonsensical.  What are you supposed to do?

There are few absolutes in life and not for a moment have I suggested there are absolutes here.  You will notice that I am interested in the *amount* of illusion, not that it is 100%.  I accept that some practicioners may produce some measureable physiological benefit but I'm not sure what it is and it certainly isn't many of the things they claim it is.  So perhaps it is you that is trivialising the debate but misinterpreting what I've said for an absolutist position and mistaking rational but challenging debate for conceit and insult. Blimey, when was the last time you heard a political interview, I'm a pussycat compared to Paxman!


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## the watcher (16 January 2007)

'If you read what I've said carefully you'll discover I was questioning 'physiologcal effect' not 'value' and I've said if people think it works, it has a value and I have no problem or particular interest in that''

I think the above is just semantics, and I do believe that there is a physiological effect. I am not and never have been a biology student..my science interest and work application has been more physics based, so I think I can grasp smoke and mirrors.

Whilst historically there have been some outstanding individuals, in general medicine (including veterinary) has come on a long way in the last two hundred years or so. Back then you might have been arguing with equal conviction for the application of leeches. 

Science is not static, so maybe we have to wait for conventional treatment to catch up with some of the alternatives before you will be persuaded


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## Shiraz (16 January 2007)

As you can see from my login I registered on H&amp;H in 2004 - all I found was nastiness, back biting and b'tching...hence I haven't been back much since. Anyone who happened to have a different opinion from the masses was called a "troll", it's so good to see that it is still going on... I have since found a great helpful forum where people offer support and advice - here could learn a lot from it! Now I've got that off my chest..back to this thread.

I read the posts last night and can't explain how much they angered me, I was trying not to stoop to this level but I just have to get my 2p out.

How dare you insult these professional people, they didn't get their qualifications out of a ceral packet but instead studied (theory &amp; practical) and EARNED it.

I use a McTimmoney-Corely (Spinal Therapist) lady (you can't call yourself a Chiropracter unless you actually are a human one - much the same as the whole dentist situation) and she has been brilliant.

When my mum bought my mare nearly 9yrs ago she (the horse) was crouching when people were getting on. We never mounted from the ground and went through the whole "cold backed" routine and then got vets out. Several vets later and still no diagnosis, she was then referred to the Dick Vet and kept in and they never found anything. She's had all her saddles custom made but they still move to the right. We got highly recommended physios out and they all found nothing. 

By chance a lady on my yard is training to be an Equine Body Worker (sports massage) so she and her friend from the course came to use my horse as a case study. It turned out that her friend was a McTimmoney Corely practicioner. She immediately diagnosed a rotated pelvis, tilt to the right and then muscle wastage on the side of the tilt and over developed on the left side.

How did I know she was right? Simple, and you can try this too, she stood behind my horse and put a hand on the points of her hip and drew a straight line up to her spine - where her right had was several inches in front of her left hand. The same happened when hands are ran from the point of the hip to the seatbone - this also was uneven. As soon as it was pointed out it became the most obvious thing in the world but it had been missed by vets and all sorts that had been out to see her over the years.

McTimmoney-Corely never claimed to manipulate the spine/bones but the muscles. The manipulation is the release of the muscles that are holding the vertibrae/pelvis etc. How do I know it has worked? Because afterwards when the point of hip to spine test was done again - when you ran your hands up they met square in the middle. No smoke &amp; mirrors and no it's not like going to see a fortune teller!!

My horse has since has massages - they also work. How do I know? Because the incorrect muscle behind the saddle -that my horse had build up from moving awkwardly to compensate for her rotated pelvis - disappeared to the eye after the first session and was gone to the touch after the second and remains gone to this day. 

I now get the McTimmoney lady out every 6wks. On her last couple of visits she has lifted up my horses hip by moving her leg and it has made a visible difference...again she never claimed to be manipulating or moving bones.

Like I think it was Law or The Watcher that posted (apologies if wrong) that they wished they knew more about it to offer more support and I am in that same boat. Since the first visit I have had I went on the net and have found out everything I can about it but I am sure there are many others who can explain it more elquently than I.

You don't have to be an Equine Science student ... the books &amp; people that they learn from are accessable to all. If anyone is interested I can recommend (recommend to me by the massage lady) The Injury Free Horse by Amanda Sutton and if she's good enough to be the physio for the Olympic event team she is good enough for me!!

I don't think this is a "fad" and people are cashing in on the horse world. I think people are learning more and making huge advances to help our equine friends. Speak to anyone at the top of their game (Pippa Funnell, Tim Stockdale,etc) and they will openly admit to having regular physio sessions for their horses (and themselves!).

Ditto Ann82's comments re the pole work. Raised at one end is an excellent exercise and makes a huge difference and improvement to your horse.

Thanks to Hollyjz for taking the time out to explain your work and I too find it shocking that you have to almost defend yourself. 

As to the comment about having horses for 20yrs and never having their backs checked... maybe they would have benefited from it? How many times have they felt "not quite right", stiff going out of the stable in the morning or stepping only slightly short for example? Just because you never got it done doesn't mean it was never needed. I can remember back in the olden days when if a saddle didn't fit you bunged another numnah under it or tightened the girth...now we all know how bad that is and how saddles should be checked at least every 6mths so surely the same advancements could/can be/have been made in regards to equine backs and should be taken advantage of and grasped with both hands?

I don't think standing in the stable or being on rest would fully heal a horse and/or resolved the root of the problem. Much the same if you pulled a muscle running and had a week in bed you would be stiff when you went back out again at least or if you felt better would would soon know about it when you tried running again!

For those of you still sceptical about Physio/McTimmoney then why not try massage? It's non-evasive and increases blood flood, improves circulation and can improve performance as well as general comfort.

I'm sorry that this is jumbled and so long and there a probably a ton of spelling and gramar mistakes and instances where I have not explained myself properly but I think you get the jist of my post.

I await the "troll" comments and abuse....


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## dressagespain (16 January 2007)

WOW, shiraz. LONG post!!

I agree with you so no troll comments from this direction.

Just wish my physio woman had not moved away!!

ANY PHYSIOS ETC WANNA MOVE TO SPAIN??? WE ARE DESPERATE !!


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## Shiraz (16 January 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
WOW, shiraz. LONG post!!

I agree with you so no troll comments from this direction.

Just wish my physio woman had not moved away!!

ANY PHYSIOS ETC WANNA MOVE TO SPAIN??? WE ARE DESPERATE !! 

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah sorry, got a bit carried away!!!

Thanks!! Hugely appreciated!!

Good luck with your physio hunt.


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## Beanyowner (16 January 2007)

I seriously think the point is being missed here!!

Where exactly am I insulting peoples profession!?!?!? Am I not allowed to question something...as I have said, yes I am a final year equine science student and yes I am learning a hell of a lot about the equine body...am I not allowed to apply this knowledge to real life horses?!?!? Am I not allowed to question something and ask other peoples views on the matter?!?!

If you read my post correctly I have actually got a McTimoney Chiropractor out to my horse...and I have also said my horse was improved by this visit...I am no way slating them, I am however questioning whether it was the actualy treatment that has made the improvement or whether it was the rest and reduced exercise which I was recommended to do by the practitioner...either way I do not begrudge spending my money...which I might add was nearly £100 in the end with another visit yet to come!!

 [ QUOTE ]
 She immediately diagnosed a rotated pelvis, tilt to the right and then muscle wastage on the side of the tilt and over developed on the left side. 

[/ QUOTE ]

That is actually the kind of comments I was referring too in my original post...a horses pelvis cannot rotate!!!!!! 

 [ QUOTE ]
 You don't have to be an Equine Science student ... the books &amp; people that they learn from are accessable to all. 

[/ QUOTE ] 

So are all the journals and text books doctors and lawyers learn from...your point?!?

 [ QUOTE ]
 Thanks to Hollyjz for taking the time out to explain your work and I too find it shocking that you have to almost defend yourself. 

[/ QUOTE ] 

She didn't...she offered to answer some questions...so we asked some!!

 [ QUOTE ]
 I await the "troll" comments and abuse....  

[/ QUOTE ] 

There won't be any...as I have put in the title...debate!! This is the kind of questioning I was after!!  
	
	
		
		
	


	





Its a shame you have not found HHO to be welcoming in the past...I suppose we are all different and go to forums where will feel better suited! Please do come and post again though as you have made some very valid points which I have added to this debate.


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## the watcher (16 January 2007)

Beanyowner, I don't think the last couple of posts were directed at you.
It is a good debate as long as all sides are prepared to see another point of view, without neccessarily agreeing with it.


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## Beanyowner (16 January 2007)

Well of course...that is afterall the point of a debate. 
	
	
		
		
	


	





The post from Shiraz was directed at me as I had not been one of the last to post when she replied so therefore not caught on the 'quick reply' button. I still think my questions are valid ones whether it was aimed at me or not though....and await a reply 
	
	
		
		
	


	





I do not expect people to agree with me...just would like to know their experiences and if they can give me any more information which may change my mind on the subject!


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## the watcher (16 January 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
The post from Shiraz was directed at me as I had not been one of the last to post when she replied so therefore not caught on the 'quick reply' button. I still think my questions are valid ones whether it was aimed at me or not though....and await a reply 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

I think she probably picked you as the original poster..most of the points she was addressing related to posts from puddicat


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## Beanyowner (16 January 2007)

ahh I see. Well I would still like to see her reponse...whole point of a debate afterall!!


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## puddicat (16 January 2007)

Oooo it very much isn't semantics, using and interpreting language at that level of detail is absolutely necessary if any headway is to made on a complex subject like this.  I think definitions are important, I'd define 'value' in terms of whether the customer perceived it was worthwhile and 'effect' in terms of physiological variables.  The two could be totally unrelated.

*...has come on a long way in the last two hundred years or so.*

Yes I think you're making my point for me aren't you? 

I agree 2 centuries ago the understanding of the nature of 'evidence' in a scientific sense was lacking a few important details so medicine was not as evidence-based as it is now.  However that also means the arguments for the virtue of leaches and against the practice of witchcraft were also weaker.

Two centuries on the scientific method has 'matured' in the sense that it allows scientists to address most types of problem.  Also the results of its application in understanding of how the body works now amounts to an overwhelming amount of literature.  So it is not the amount of knowledge which is lacking, it is the ownership of that knowledge which is too limited - that problem is well recognised and being addressed by government and most of the major science organisations in the UK.  So a good example is your view below which is very commonly expressed, but totally misplaced: 

* Science is not static, so maybe we have to wait for conventional treatment to catch up with some of the alternatives before you will be persuaded *

Scientific understanding is way in advance of anything needed to explain or evaluate alternatives.  As I said, even at undergraduate level the contradiction between some of the claims therapy and the evidence obtained through scientific experiment is so overwhelming that it is difficult to ignore.  this is also a big reason why there are so few studies on alternative therapies, it is so obvious that that the effects can't be separated from randomness that it would be a waste of time and money doing the study.  (Actually I happen to think this thread would be easier if you could point to a scientific study even if it looked for something and found nothing).

So the knowledge is there for pretty much anyone to aquire.  If you think massaging muscle has some particular effect - go and read about muscle and the answer is almost certainly there with little room for ambiguity.  The only catch is that its not easy reading and there's a lot of it!


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## the watcher (16 January 2007)

In short, the difference between you and I is that I do not need to 'win' this debate, on any level. Therefore my responses may lack distinction in the exact meaning or interpretation of words used. I am happy to use the commonly understood meaning of words because this is not a debate on which my job, or justification for it, is hanging.

My understanding of a rotated or twisted pelvis would be one which has become uneven with wasted muscle where muscles are pulling unevenly  and therefore causing a possible impact on related limbs. It is not my understanding that the major bones have actually moved - as far as I am concerned this is just a common description. In retrospect I wish that I had photographed my mare when she had this particular conditions, as even with a scientific eye you would not be able to deny that there has been a signficant improvement with no other change in handling and routine than one lot of manipulation and leg stretching, and similar exercises left for me to continue the 'treatment'.

This is only one example.

A good doctor, vet or scientist should never have a completely closed mind, in my opinion. There is always more to learn and things that we cannot explain now, but may be able to understand and explain in the future.

Back to the leeches, these were not some alternative treatment in their day, but an accepted medical practice. Whilst there are still some conditions where they have uses, they are not widely used in the same way now..science has given us alternatives. 

It may be that all alternative therapies can be proven to be a complete waste of time and money (in respect of effect)given that scientific study is now so advanced..if it were THAT easy I am surprised it has not been done. I would also welcome such a study.


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## Shiraz (16 January 2007)

My reply was not directed at anyone - all my comments were responses to all the posts that I have read in this thread. I don't know what you mean about "quick replies" or who I have or have not replied to. I'm new to this forum and posting here so apologies for any offense caused by that.

I am supposed to be working so am unable to answer all your questions in detail at the mo' Beany but I will try my best to get back on tonight or tomorrow.


Firstly - and Hollyjz pls correct me if I am wrong - as far I am led to believe her pelvis WAS rotated. I know that her actual pelvis had not moved but due to muscle spasms &amp; mainly tension her point of hip/pelvis had moved and was not in alignment. Through manipulating the muscles the pelvis returned to it's original and correct postion. 

Much probing from me revealed that just before my mum bought her she'd been on an unexplained year long box rest (at the time explained away as owner busy with youngsters and my mare just wasn't being used) and that previous to the year off there had been an "incident" on a hack where my mare had got a fright from a lorry, lost her rider, spooked even more and bolted only to be chased by said lorry and it's unknown whether she fell or went over/thru a gate (would explain the white hair on her otherwise chestnut stomach) so she has suffered trauma and since then moved in a way to compensate for the pain - this now is purely pyschological as far as I am aware but when something like that is learnt and has been her way of going for 9yrs...  

Sorry I've totally rambled off topic. I was just trying to clarify that her pelvis/point of hip had actually moved and was in a different postion after McT-C was finished session. I know that bones don't move - unless there is something seriously seriously wrong- but due to muscles etc this was in a different/incorrect position. 

My point about that books was not a go at Equine science students...the exact opposite. I was saying that the information is out there and not being a degree student is no excuse for not having a basic understanding and there is nothing stopping the average joe blogg from learning the same as students (same for law etc too) as the information is available to everyone. Everyone can learn, does that make more sense?

Hollyjz did kindly offer to answer questions and that happened but it came to point (and I can't see that far back the thread at the moment) when IMO they stopped being questions and the validity of her job was being questioned.

Sorry for the brief, well for me anyway, reply but I hope I have covered most of the questions you asked


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## Scarlett (16 January 2007)

agree 101% with Shiraz - my IDx has just been treated for 'tilting his sacroileac joint' - this is a reoccuring problem he has had and I hope we will see an end too with the correct treatment. It takes my backman 10 min to sort and straight away the results are to be seen, horse tracks up, can stretch his head forward, can lift his off hind over poles instead of dragging it and his tail lys flat rather than up and to the right constantly.

Whether other people think it works or not doesnt matter to me - I am happy in the knowlege my horse is getting fixed after having this problem for over year which was ignored by someone who 'didnt believe in backmen...'


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## puddicat (16 January 2007)

_ In short, the difference between you and I is that I do not need to 'win' this debate, on any level. _ 

No you misunderstand my motive: I have no interest in winning the debate in fact I learn more when I lose debates.  What I'm trying to do is *progress* the debate, to move it on to try untangle some of the arguments.  Serious if you watch Newnight or lawyers or scientists at work, there is room for people taking things personally if debates are going to be challenging.  My only interest is in learning and understanding, I've no interest in personalities, back biting, insults, whatever, it's the only the subject of the debate not the people debating it that I'm interested in.

_ A good doctor, vet or scientist should never have a completely closed mind, in my opinion. There is always more to learn and things that we cannot explain now, but may be able to understand and explain in the future. _

I agree, few of them do in my experience.  Sometimes, holding to a view which is supported by lot's of evidence gets mistaken for having a closed mind.  I've got a very open mind but how much convincing I take directly relates to how much is involved on either side of the argument.

_ It may be that all alternative therapies can be proven to be a complete waste of time and money (in respect of effect)given that scientific study is now so advanced..if it were THAT easy I am surprised it has not been done. I would also welcome such a study._

We agree 
	
	
		
		
	


	




  I would welcome studies too, as I said it is because science is so advanced that doing the studies is often seen as pointless but there are studies taking place and no doubt there will be more.


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## fizz-tally (16 January 2007)

i have only used a lady who does massage &amp; she helped fizz alot


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## puddicat (16 January 2007)

There's lots I'd like to chat about in your post but this bit grabbed my attention -

_ The Injury Free Horse by Amanda Sutton and if she's good enough to be the physio for the Olympic event team she is good enough for me!! _

Amanda Sutton and I found ourselves speaking at the same event once.  We had a pretty good discussion actually


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## the watcher (17 January 2007)

Revisiting this, as I too enjoy a debate.

The problem as I see it is that this debate is being approached from opposite sides, on one hand you have had the benefit of a good deal of education, I am completely in the dark as to whether you are currently, or have been, a horse owner or rider. On the other side are owners and riders who have not had this training, are not versed in debating and remaining dispassionate, but who firmly believe that the treatment gives a benefit to their horses. Beanyowner is stuck in the middle, dry education tells her one thing, her wish to do the best possible for her horse tells her to try anything that might bring a benefit.

I can't add any more to the debate as I have neither the will not the time to undertake a scientific survey which is possibly the only outcome that would interest those with a more scientific outlook.

In closing though, one question for you. I assume all this training is going to lead to a career in veterinary medicine. Confronted by a client with a horse that is clearly unsound through a hind leg, with muscle wastage across one side of the rump and a pain response in the back in front of the affected hip, what treatment and diagnostic options would you recommend, what would the likely cost be of these and would you ever consider referral to any kind of 'back person' or would you dismiss this out of hand because of your scientific beliefs and indeed communicate these beliefs to your client?


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## Beanyowner (17 January 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
 Beanyowner is stuck in the middle, dry education tells her one thing, her wish to do the best possible for her horse tells her to try anything that might bring a benefit. 

[/ QUOTE ] 

Thanks Watcher...this is true. 
	
	
		
		
	


	





 [ QUOTE ]
 I assume all this training is going to lead to a career in veterinary medicine. Confronted by a client with a horse that is clearly unsound through a hind leg, with muscle wastage across one side of the rump and a pain response in the back in front of the affected hip, what treatment and diagnostic options would you recommend, what would the likely cost be of these and would you ever consider referral to any kind of 'back person' or would you dismiss this out of hand because of your scientific beliefs and indeed communicate these beliefs to your client?  

[/ QUOTE ] 

"and a pain response in the back in front of the affected hip" - As the spine is in the middle I am assuming you mean the tuber coxae area (big bone across the top of the pelvis, aka hind quartes!!), if it is showing a pain response to one affected hip only I will assume you mean this area as a pain response in the spinal area would surely affect both hind limbs?!? (as you can tell I am not anywhere near a vet nor do I intend to become one...! but though I would attempt to respond to the question anyway!!) If the horse was showing lamness in one hind limb I would offer nerve blocking up the affected leg (starting at the bottom) to begin to find the source of the pain, as the muscle wastage may be due to the horse not using itself correctly for long period of time however the owner would 'surely' have called a vet if the horse was lame for a significant time. Hopefully this would indicate a general location of pain and then it would be a task of finding the source...whichI will not sport on as I will ramble for AGES!!!
Cost - not the foggiest! Pretty expensive I imagine!
Would I consider referral...I would recommend many different alternative treatment options to the owner yes...just because I have my doubts there are obviously people who claim tehy work...if the owner wants to throw £45 or so for a chance then go for it! No harm in trying!!! 
	
	
		
		
	


	




Would I communicate my beliefs...I would say that there is no evidence to prove this treatment works...and say it is completely up to them, however if they want to try and find out the real reason as to why their horse is performing poorly or lame...then give me a shout!!  
	
	
		
		
	


	





Just read that back...its slight ramblings but I think you get the general jist!!


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## the watcher (17 January 2007)

"and a pain response in the back in front of the affected hip" - As the spine is in the middle I am assuming you mean the tuber coxae area (big bone across the top of the pelvis, aka hind quartes!!), 

That'll be it - probably! Never was very good at describing the various anatomical bits of the horse..although if I was describing it to somebody else I might say 'behind the saddle area but on the left side' or something along those lines.

Th simple diagnostic methods you have described so far would add up to a fair bit, I imagine, throw in an Xray or MRI, plus potentially the horse being out of work but still costing money because rest always seems to feature in veterinary advice..and suddenly £40 odd is looking very reasonable. Imagine then if you  were underinsured for the conventional tests and didn't have the means to follow those up.

The point I am trying to get to, very ineptly, is that alternatives are often far cheaper and potentially less invasive. If a client was looking at having a horse PTS because they simply couldn't afford the conventional diagnostic work, could a vet in all good conscience say that established alternative therapies have no place in treatment?


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## Beanyowner (17 January 2007)

It all depends on weighing up the costs...yes...veterinary work IS expensive but it is the ONLY way an owner will find out the true cause of any lamness. I suppose it also comes down to how much the horse is worth as well. I canhonestly say that I had the McTimoney practitioner out to see Benson for this exact reason...I am a student and I cannot really afford veterinary costs at the moment, I would obviously find the money if one was needed but as you said £90 for 2 treatments is far better than the costs of nerve blocks, Xrays etc. I may be a science student but I am a practical one more than an academic one!! Practically, the back man was worth a shot! 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 Just so happens it has helped Benson for whatever reason...possibly the treatment, possibly the rest given while I was home for xmas. Either way...he is sound again so I don't care! 
	
	
		
		
	


	





But for reference...horses cannot have MRI's on their spine...only their limbs and possibly their head. As far as I know there is not a machine big enough to fit a whole horse in!!


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## the watcher (17 January 2007)

But for reference...horses cannot have MRI's on their spine...only their limbs and possibly their head. As far as I know there is not a machine big enough to fit a whole horse in!! 

I was thinking feet and legs..since this is where you said you would start nerve blocking 
	
	
		
		
	


	




Would be interested in puddicat's response though, dragging debate on pure science into the real world


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## Beanyowner (17 January 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
 I was thinking feet and legs..since this is where you said you would start nerve blocking  

[/ QUOTE ] 

Whoops... 
	
	
		
		
	


	








 Now I understand!! lol!

Yes where is Puddicat!!!


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## Shiraz (17 January 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
it is the ONLY way an owner will find out the true cause of any lamness  

[/ QUOTE ] 

Sorry - don't know how to do quotes or if I have replied to the wrong person...

I'm sorry to disagree (again  
	
	
		
		
	


	




) but... like I said in previous posts we had countless vets and a referal with overnight stays to the Dick Vet for my mare's back/lameness/legs/ whatever the frig they could find!! and it came back all clear - basically it was all in our heads and to ignore the crouching or wear a thicker numnah  
	
	
		
		
	


	





We had a physio who came highly recommended out but he couldn't find anything either and just done work on her neck and shoulders  
	
	
		
		
	


	





Anyway, like I said on a previous post the McTimmoney Corely lady we got out diagnosed/gave her opinion after seeing my mare stood square, before seeing her move and it all rang true. I was not trying to "make it fit" or grasping at straws, what she said genuinely fitted the bill...so to speak. 

After seeing my mare move lameness in the hind leg was also diagnosed and this had been missed by myself (couldn't feel it when riding and she went squint which didn't help), vets, phsyio and instructress.

Much the same as you can get vets &amp; farriers you don't like/think much off I'm sure you can get alternative therapy peeps like that too so I'm not saying that all McT-C are a god send but in my case she definitely was  
	
	
		
		
	


	





I can only echo what Scarlett has said and that is, it has worked for my horse and made her pain free and improved everything about her (although we are still a work in progress, not there yet) and at the end of the day that is all that matters to me


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## Beanyowner (17 January 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
  can only echo what Scarlett has said and that is, it has worked for my horse and made her pain free and improved everything about her (although we are still a work in progress, not there yet) and at the end of the day that is all that matters to me  

[/ QUOTE ] 

...and in my book (with my non sciencey head on) that is all that matters!!


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## verapig (18 January 2007)

I would be interested to hear what puddycat thinks of Shiraz's experience.


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## puddicat (20 January 2007)

Just to round off - a reply to the_watchers question

First I think you summarised the position pretty well.  Dy definition it *is*only the outcome of a scientific study would provide evidence for a scientist.  Most scientists I've come across are interested in anecdote but as the basis for further investigation, not belief.  Scientists are professional doubters, the big discoveries in science have inevitably started with questioning things that often seemed obvious to most people.

The answer to your question is this.  There are some practices that come under the heading of physiotherapy that obviously work.  Experienced horsemen and women have known about them for ages and I think physiotherapists have added to this knowledge although I could say whether the additions are significant or not.  So I think it makes sense to involve an experienced horseperson or a physiotherapist if a condition suggests that it may benefit from that aspect of their work.  I'm talking basically about the long term development of muscle mass using targetted exercise.

There are other practices that one could generously describe as dubious from a scientific perspective but are probably harmless.  Given that I can't remember hearing a story about a therapist making a horse worse (although there must be) I don't see why one shouldn't say to anyone that asks that you can try it if you want but don't expect a result.

Finally there are things that one hears that are just nonsense.  I think would be the duty of someone who knew that something was pointless from a scientific perspective to give the benefit of her/his insight to anyone who asked.


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