# Why are half bred horses ok but half bred dogs aren't?!



## MagicMelon (16 May 2016)

Getting a bit fed up of seeing things on facebook slagging off "designer" dog mixed breeds. What I dont get is why is it acceptable that we all think half bred horses (Anglo Arabs, ID x TB's etc.) are absolutely fine but in a dog thats just awful?  Yes, cross breeds cost a bit but who cares if it can potentially give a dog a really nice personality?  We have a labradoodle, she is NOT a mongrel - a mongrel in my eyes is like a Heinz 57 horse, you dont know the breeding. I know the breeding in my dog.


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## Dry Rot (16 May 2016)

I can't see anything wrong in cross breeding for a purpose. Plenty of examples amongst working breeds. Where do you think Labrador retrievers came from? Or Flat coat retrievers? In Ireland, the 'dropper' is a well known gundog crated by crossing two recognised breeds. It has the retrieving instincts of a retrieving breed (spaniel or Lab, for example) combined with a working pointer or setter so you (hopefully) end up with a dog with a moderate range that also points and retrieves (which is how many of the 'purebred' Continental pointer-retrievers originated).

But breeding to produce a fluffy pet that has eye appeal and nothing much else so it is easier to sell is immoral. Horses are working animals and are usually crssed to produce an intermediate type between two or more defined breeds.


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## CorvusCorax (16 May 2016)

Breeding for looks alone is just plain wrong. Any breed. Any animal.


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## paddi22 (16 May 2016)

it can also give a range of very undesirable traits when people just cross breeds with the main aim being cuteness and a twee name.  Apart from encouraging unscrupulous breeders breeding issues into the puppies, there is also the issue of them breeding dogs with opposing traits, causing them issues behaviourwise.


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## paddi22 (16 May 2016)

MagicMelon said:



			Yes, cross breeds cost a bit but who cares if it can potentially give a dog a really nice personality?
		
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there are plenty of 'normal' (ie not faddy, overpriced) dogs who also have nice personalities. probably a higher percentage as they aren't unsuitable crosses just picked for cutenes..


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## ycbm (17 May 2016)

I'm really struggling to understand what is wrong with breeding from good parents for colour and cuteness. The cocker poos  and labradoodles I know are all delightful dogs utterly adored by their owners.

Many of the pedigree dogs, on the other hand, look to me as if they are approaching being deformed. 

Nothing should be bred just because they are cute and lovely? All horse cross breeds have a job to do? Tell that to my completely loved and cherished miniature paint  Shetland. Shock, horror, she's my toy as far as I'm concerned.

Price is only an indicator of demand. These dogs aren't overpriced, they sell at that price because people want them 

There is so much snobbery in dog breeding, thankfully it isn't the same level in cats, where most of us own moggies.


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## MurphysMinder (17 May 2016)

I think you have actually just stated what the problem is in many cases ycbm.   People buy for colour and cuteness without looking into the reality of what the parents are bred for.   Round here there seem to be no end of labradoodles and springadors who their owners really can't cope with.  They buy the cute fluffy puppies and don't consider they are buying the product of 2 working breeds that need to be kept busy.    We have a customer at the shop where I work who has a labradoodle that is destroying his house and running rings round him.  I suggested he took him to training classes and pointed out that both breeds were designed to work and he was amazed.  He had no idea even that labradors were gundogs, never mind how intelligent poodles were.  I also suggested he considered castrating the dog and like so many male owners he was horrified at the prospect.  
You only have to look at the fact that the man who bred the first labradoodles now regrets doing it and in his words "opening a pandora's box".


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## ycbm (17 May 2016)

But what you describe is no different than dog owning has always been, is it?. The difference that I can see is the sheer number of people who now want to own a dog, but the stupid owners have always been there taking on the next door neighbour's mongrel accidents. When I was a child many decades ago my puppy was paralysed on his first outside walk by an out of control retriever.

People have always owned cute mongrels. This argument appears to me only about giving them cute 'breed' names.


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## Alec Swan (17 May 2016)

Dry Rot said:



			&#8230;&#8230;..

But breeding to produce a fluffy pet that has eye appeal and nothing much else so it is easier to sell is immoral. Horses are working animals and are usually crssed to produce an intermediate type between two or more defined breeds.
		
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I suspect that when breeding and crossing between different breeds has a 'purpose' then there's purpose behind the breeding.  Simply breeding for appearance achieves very little I suspect.

Was it Sharpe who in the late 19th century noted that there were those who crossed Labradors with English Pointers in the hope of getting a dog which would both point and retrieve,  but found that the results were generally dogs which did neither?!!  It's obviously worked for others which is why we have the HPRs,  but the view of most is that,  with gundogs anyway,  it's better to breed for the single disciplines;  Labs retrieve,  Spaniels hunt and Pointers point.  Expecting to retain discipline with a dog which is bred to hunt and then allowing it to also retrieve is generally where the problems start.

I've bred a fair few lurchers over the years,  and think that it's a bit like breeding Event horses,  in that the different disciplines often conflict with each other,  and that generally we find that two horses which Event successfully aren't always the best idea.  It's the same with lurchers in that a top class dog put to a similar bitch rarely seems to work.  We continue,  with the best of those which we breed,  to return to a base pure-bred dog on one side or the other.

Designer x-breeds have no purpose that I can see beyond being ornaments.  Some will be ok from the standpoint of temperament whilst others won't,  and the same can be said for pure-bred dogs.  When cross-breeding the argument will always be the same in that when it works,  or doesn't,  cross-breedig will be the reason given!

Alec.


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## MurphysMinder (17 May 2016)

Ah but as you say, they were accidents,  not specifically bred and costing a fortune.   I think dog owning was different years ago,  to start with not so many dogs were left all day,  quite often the mother of the family didn't work.  Dogs were often let out to exercise themselves so probably weren't full of energy with nowhere to burn it off.  And dare I say it , people were firmer in their training methods, so I think dogs in general were better behaved.


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## CorvusCorax (17 May 2016)

There are as many ill tempered doodles and poos as there are pedigree dogs. 

My 'deformed' pedigree dog has a squillion generation traceable pedigree, best possible health scores, the highest working qualification he can attain, passed an endurance test and has a 'very good' show rating. Plus he's a pet who lives in my house, clambers over me on the sofa, and we climb mountains too on our days off. Oh and he cost less than £400 by today's conversion rate. 

People will pay what they want to pay, for what they want. Not everyone would like my dog or want him in their house, but I'm over the moon with him and he's everything I've ever wanted to have in a dog.


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## ycbm (17 May 2016)

MurphysMinder said:



			Ah but as you say, they were accidents,  not specifically bred and costing a fortune.   I think dog owning was different years ago,  to start with not so many dogs were left all day,  quite often the mother of the family didn't work.  Dogs were often let out to exercise themselves so probably weren't full of energy with nowhere to burn it off.  And dare I say it , people were firmer in their training methods, so I think dogs in general were better behaved.
		
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Interestingly, though, when anyone questions the price of a pedigree puppy, the answer given is always that puppies cost a lot to breed. So what are the additional costs of breeding pedigrees over carefully bred cross breeds?

And why does anyone care what someone else wants to pay for a puppy?

If love a Bengal, Burmese, Maine Coon(e) kitten but I won't pay the price. I don't turn my nose up at people who do though?  So why do some dog owners?


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## ycbm (17 May 2016)

Please be aware that when I wrote that some pedigree dogs look deformed to me that I was not talking about anyone's particular dog. I didn't think that should need saying but it obviously does!


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## CorvusCorax (17 May 2016)

My dog is of a breed which is regularly labelled as such.


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## luckyoldme (17 May 2016)

i quite like ycbm s take on this. I know a couple who bred a lovely litter of springer doodles, all going to carefully vetted homes , and much love and care gone in to the whole process.
I really don t get the whole snootiness, theres good and bad in both the pedigree and crossbreed world.


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## CorvusCorax (17 May 2016)

ycbm said:



			Interestingly, though, when anyone questions the price of a pedigree puppy, the answer given is always that puppies cost a lot to breed. So what are the additional costs of breeding pedigrees over carefully bred cross ?
		
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Health tests on the parents, registration of each pup and DNA etc.


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## Dobiegirl (17 May 2016)

I take it you didnt watch Panorama last night about puppy farming and most of the puppies were designer breeds(x breeds). Any dog unless fully health tested shouldnt be bred imo and should be of good temperament and fit for purpose. These designer dogs mostly come from puppy farms which is in itself is a reason for not buying, when these puppies are sold they cost more than a fully health tested pedigree dog so it always about the money.
As a fosterer I am seeing more and more of these dogs coming into rescue as people cant cope with their highly strung temperaments and their impossible to groom coats, why should rescue have to pick up the pieces?

I am not a snob, my sister has a fantastic Spanish rescue dog who is a heinz 57 but she is beautiful and has a very laid back chilled temperament but I am anti designer dog unless the crosses are compatible and both parents fully health tested and screened. 

What about your dog OP? was it hip & elbow scored and all of the other tests required for the breed?


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## Amymay (17 May 2016)

I suppose that at the end of the day we all own a dog that is the result of cross breeding somewhere in its history - the 'breed' wouldn't exist otherwise.


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## blackcob (17 May 2016)

^^ or the similar example from the recent BBC2 program where the chap went to see a cavapoo pup, was advised of the relevant health tests that the parents should have had, confirmed that the mother hadn't had them and then bought the puppy anyway...

That is the thing that gets people's backs up when it comes to designer crossbreeds - the further opportunities it creates for puppy farming, the almost willful ignorance surrounding health issues, temperament, behavioural expectations, coat maintenance etc. The same goes for a lot of pedigree breeding, to be fair, there are always idiots looking to make money and idiots buying unsuitable dogs, it's just that the demand for designer crossbreeds just seems to be adding fuel to the fire. 

I can't really point fingers, I bought something advertised as a crossbreed that turned out to be an unregistered pedigree, nothing about that dog was suitable for us. All worked out well in the end but it was a very steep learning curve. The subsequent carefully considered rescue dog and pedigree puppy were both a breeze in comparison, we knew exactly what we were getting.


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## ester (17 May 2016)

I have nothing against cross breeds from health tested parents. 

BC I cannot believe she let him buy that cavapoo for £800 odd quid! From a bitch that had clearly had a fair few 'yearly' litters with no testing and not a pet.


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## ester (17 May 2016)

CorvusCorax said:



			There are as many ill tempered doodles and poos as there are pedigree dogs. 

My 'deformed' pedigree dog has a squillion generation traceable pedigree, best possible health scores, the highest working qualification he can attain, passed an endurance test and has a 'very good' show rating. Plus he's a pet who lives in my house, clambers over me on the sofa, and we climb mountains too on our days off. Oh and he cost less than £400 by today's conversion rate. 

People will pay what they want to pay, for what they want. Not everyone would like my dog or want him in their house, but I'm over the moon with him and he's everything I've ever wanted to have in a dog.
		
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and you should let us have more pics too 

I can remember you saying the vets were worried about his pasterns at 5/6 months?


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## CorvusCorax (17 May 2016)

I was concerned about them, but he's five now and a proper powerhouse and showing no signs of slowing down. It appears to be a cosmetic thing and certainly doesn't have an impact on his ability to work, thankfully! His father's are also quite long.

Haven't done Photobucket for years, wouldn't know where to even look!!


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## MotherOfChickens (17 May 2016)

ester said:



			BC I cannot believe she let him buy that cavapoo for £800 odd quid! From a bitch that had clearly had a fair few 'yearly' litters with no testing and not a pet.
		
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he's an adult who made up his own mind I guess. I am more shocked that they couldn't find a cavapoo closer to Cheltenhem lol.


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## minesadouble (17 May 2016)

It's also a way for an owner of a pedigree bitch to milk her for all she's worth. Once she's had her quota of KC registered pups and subsequent litters cannot be registered X breeding means she can still make the owner dome money.


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## smja (17 May 2016)

I have trouble with the way that some owners seem to be unaware that their designer crossbreed is NOT actually a breed - my uncle, a well educated and otherwise sensible man who has owned dogs in the past, asked me the other day how big I thought his new cockapoo would get. When I told him it depended on the parents he was taken aback - he thought they would all be small like the one his friend has, because they were the same "breed".

Note - it doesn't really matter how big the dog gets, he's had big dogs in the past, it was more his surprise that, well, surprised me!


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## Mince Pie (17 May 2016)

The problem I've found is people are A) charging a fortune for these dogs, B) breeding just to be able to give them a silly name - you mention ID x TB but not cocker x poodle, rather call it a cockerpoo (and I'm sorry but having the word 'poo' at the end of my dogs 'breed' just sounds ridiculous!), and C) as has been mentioned, you now have the needs and traits of 2 different breeds of dog to think about when a lot of new dog owners don't even think of 1.


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## ester (17 May 2016)

IDxTB = ISH though


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## stencilface (17 May 2016)

Well, there are two types of dogs, pedigrees and mongrels. I know what cross my dog is (well fairly sure, they're quite distinctive) but he's not a Grottie, he's a mongrel.

Someone probably did 'design' the cross (and well done for crossing two breeds both prone to hip problems) and although it's given me a lovely rescue dog I don't necessarily think it was a wise choice.


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## Pinkvboots (17 May 2016)

I just can't stand the stupid names these dogs have and it seems this is what makes them so appealing to some people to make them want to spend a ridiculous amount of money on one, but I suppose while people are willing to pay it they will keep breeding them.

I did watch the puppy farm programme last night and I know quite a few people that have looked at dogs and the seller has used the "my daughter has taken mummy dog down to our caravan so she is not here to see" must be a common one these fraudsters use.


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## Dry Rot (17 May 2016)

I've said it before and I'll say it again, there is no legislating against stupidity!


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## chillipup (17 May 2016)

I suppose my cross bred pup, JRT cross Shih Tzu would be called a Jack S*it then?


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## ycbm (17 May 2016)

Dry Rot said:



			I've said it before and I'll say it again, there is no legislating against stupidity!
		
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Exactly. There is a breeder near me who breeds one litter of cockerpoos a year from a home living bitch and makes an honest bob or two out of selling some very sought after puppies.

I can't for the life of me see what's wrong with that, or how calling them cockerpoos is any more 'stupid' than calling a lurcher which can be any one of a number of crosses, a lurcher. Or even, come to that, a shihtzu a shihtzu.


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## ester (17 May 2016)

Nothing wrong if the parents are health tested.


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## MurphysMinder (17 May 2016)

Indeed nothing wrong if parents are health tested and the bitch doesn't have one litter a year throughout her life.


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## ycbm (17 May 2016)

MurphysMinder said:



			Indeed nothing wrong if parents are health tested and the bitch doesn't have one litter a year throughout her life.
		
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Brood mares can have a foal a year healthily throughout their lives covered on goal heat with an on time foal.. Why can't a bitch be healthy and have a litter a year?  Serious question, I know little about breeding dogs but I don't see the issue with being pregnant for two months and mothering for two months and completely free of puppy duty for eight months a year?


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## Dobiegirl (17 May 2016)

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/canine-corner/201404/designer-dog-maker-regrets-his-creation

From the man himself.


The Kennel Club will only allow 4 litters I believe to be registered, this is in the interest of welfare of the bitch and if you havent bred what you wanted by then you are never likely too.


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## Dry Rot (17 May 2016)

ester said:



			Nothing wrong if the parents are health tested.
		
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It's amazing how they managed before health testing.


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## MurphysMinder (17 May 2016)

ycbm said:



			Brood mares can have a foal a year healthily throughout their lives covered on goal heat with an on time foal.. Why can't a bitch be healthy and have a litter a year?  Serious question, I know little about breeding dogs but I don't see the issue with being pregnant for two months and mothering for two months and completely free of puppy duty for eight months a year?
		
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Bitches can often take a lot longer to comeback after a litter than the 2 months they are rearing the litter,  and having litter after litter can pull them down.  But more to the point why would you do it,  as Dobiegirl says,  if breeding to improve your line if you haven't done it in 4 litters then I would suggest the bitch isnt a good producer.    I don't know a great deal about breeding mares but imagine  very few are take every year throughout their lives.


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## Thistle (17 May 2016)

Also a horse wouldhave15to20 foals over her lifetime Abitch would have this number of pups in 2 litters


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## ycbm (17 May 2016)

Dry Rot said:



			It's amazing how they managed before health testing.
		
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And why is it necessary? Because of previous breeding practices by pedigree dog breeders.


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## ycbm (17 May 2016)

In sorry but I don't understand any of the arguments given so far why a family should not breed a litter of puppies a year from a bitch to produce puppies for which there is a ready market which will give them some pocket money. It's a lot less reproduction than nature would do.


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## Dobiegirl (17 May 2016)

What do you think a Cockerpoo is? Its obviously a cross between 2 pedigree dogs, by breeding them together it isnt going to make the health problems of their parents go away. 

Modern vet medicine has moved on and there are now tests for all sorts of conditions which couldnt be tested before, whatever you are breeding health should be at the top of the list as well as temperament because without those you have nothing.

Why anyone would breed when there is a chance of blind puppies which could be tested for prior to mating is beyond me and it is not only unethical but immoral..

Rescues up and down the country pick up the pieces from these people who are breeding so they can make a bit of pin money and actually the prices they charge it is not pin money but a substantial income for the cheapest outlay possible.

Ive got a pedigree rare breed bitch who is fully health tested, DNA tested from health tested parents, she is also on the KC vulnerable list but as I foster I wouldnt breed her as I would have felt like a hypocrite. How about that lady breeding those cockerpoos goes out and gets a job like the rest of us rather than expecting a regular income from her dogs womb.


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## ycbm (17 May 2016)

Yes, Dobiegirl, I did say earlier on in this thread that they have to be responsibly bred. And if they are, then like the OP, I can't see why anyone gets bent out of shape by what someone chooses to call them.

'An income from her dogs womb?'   Do you feel the same vitriol about people who breed horses that sell for a good price so we can ride them?

And are you saying that it's OK to breed a dog to show, but not to breed a dog because people out there want to buy it and give it a loving home? 

I'm very confused by your attitude on this.


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## Amymay (17 May 2016)

ycbm said:



			'An income from her dogs womb?'   Do you feel the same vitriol about people who breed horses that sell for a good price so we can ride them?.
		
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It's a sad fact that people do churn out puppies to make money - and if you can get £800 for a cross breed x 7 or 8 in a litter why wouldn't you? (I jest....) For many breeders there is absolutely no thought to the health of the parents, and subsequently the puppies (be they pedigree or cross breed).  You only have to look at the puppy farm exposes to know what huge business breeding puppies is.


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## gunnergundog (17 May 2016)

ycbm said:



			In sorry but I don't understand any of the arguments given so far why a family should not breed a litter of puppies a year from a bitch to produce puppies for which there is a ready market which will give them some pocket money. .
		
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Errrm..............surely you mean taxable income???


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## Alec Swan (17 May 2016)

Not always perhaps,  but for now,  I'm in the ycbm camp. 

Alec.


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## Dobiegirl (17 May 2016)

ycbm said:



			Yes, Dobiegirl, I did say earlier on in this thread that they have to be responsibly bred. And if they are, then like the OP, I can't see why anyone gets bent out of shape by what someone chooses to call them.

'An income from her dogs womb?'   Do you feel the same vitriol about people who breed horses that sell for a good price so we can ride them?

And are you saying that it's OK to breed a dog to show, but not to breed a dog because people out there want to buy it and give it a loving home? 

I'm very confused by your attitude on this.
		
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They are not charging stupid prices for their horses are they with dreamt up names in order to fool the horse buying public, horses which command a high price is  because they are well bred or they have a record of achievements, whether thats showing,racing or dressage so I dont have a problem with people breeding their well bred mare or one that is a show winner with good confirmation

Going back to dogs, someone breeding a dog to show is looking for a replacement to go on and show but most probably most of the litter will be sold on as pets although a few will also show. When you breed a pedigree dog you know what you are going to get, look wise, drive and you will also  know that the dog is either one who sheds its coat or one that requires clipping. You will also know if you are going to get a guarding breed, working breed etc and that will tell you how much exercise that dog will need. Buying a designer breed is a bit of a lottery which is not something I would be prepared to do but would rather gamble my money on a horse, you really dont know what you are going to get when that pup has grown up.

I have already said that I foster and not so long ago we has some pups come in I cant remember whether they were cavy poos or doodle doos  but the person who brought them in was the breeder, his bitch had 8 pups and he had sold 3 of them and as they got bigger people didnt like the look of them Im guessing because they didnt sell. I have to say they were not the best looking dogs Ive ever seen and Im being very kind here but the upshot is the rescue took them with no contribution from the breeder and the rescue had a job to rehome them. This is repeated up and down the country and is why I am against designer breeds because it is all about the money and why it makes me so angry.


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## Alec Swan (17 May 2016)

Dobiegirl said:



			&#8230;&#8230;.. . How about that lady breeding those cockerpoos goes out and gets a job like the rest of us rather than expecting a regular income from her dogs womb.
		
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I'm sorry,  but that's just emotive nonsense.  

Whilst I find myself in agreement with other aspects of your post,  there is nothing wrong with having an annual income from a litter of pups,  for those in need.  I've earned an income from sheep,  was I also wrong?

Alec.


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## splashgirl45 (17 May 2016)

there are quite a few of these designer dogs in my area and most of them seem to be  VERY  hyper and I am sure that they don't get the amount of exercise  which a cross of 2 working type breeds need. 
 before I get shot down, I have 2 crossbreeds myself, a border collie /lab and a bearded collie/whippet/bedlington and my dogs are well trained and have plenty of free running time and are both absolutely fine  with people and other dogs.  the same cannot be said for our local designer dogs!!!! I think there is nothing wrong with designer dogs but unfortunately a lot of the owners seem to be first timers and  the dogs only seem to get a short lead walk and have lots of pent up energy which is why so many end up in rescue.   I must admit the poodle crosses don't appeal to me at all and if I wanted a dog with that type of coat I would get a pure bred poodle ...


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## Dobiegirl (17 May 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			I'm sorry,  but that's just emotive nonsense.  

Whilst I find myself in agreement with other aspects of your post,  there is nothing wrong with having an annual income from a litter of pups,  for those in need.  I've earned an income from sheep,  was I also wrong?

Alec.
		
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Its quite common for people to prefer not to work and to get their income from other sources such as dog breeding.
 Breeding for those in need?, what short of beer money,fag money, need a new conservatory is that what you mean.
Unless your sheep end up in rescue I dont have a problem with that but judging by some of the unclipped labradoodles in rescue they could easily pass as sheep.


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## ester (17 May 2016)

well without testing (ie not that long ago, so when the issues did exist) there were a lot more older dogs in pain and distraught owners losing their loved dogs at a young age. 
It's available, so if you are breeding a breed with known issues and cared about the longevity of your produce why wouldn't you test?

If not breed a heinz57 with a heinz57 and don't charge £800 for each pup.


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## Alec Swan (17 May 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			I'm sorry,  but that's just emotive nonsense.  

&#8230;&#8230;..

Alec.
		
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Dobiegirl said:



			Its quite common for people to prefer not to work and to get their income from other sources such as dog breeding.
 &#8230;&#8230;.. .
		
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Do you know the person to whom the OP refers?  Can you explain their needs or circumstances?  No,  and neither do any of us.

Perhaps in your perfect and ordered world you may consider that you may not be quite so quick to judge.

Alec.


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## CorvusCorax (17 May 2016)

I wondered when someone would mention tax


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## MotherOfChickens (17 May 2016)

half bred horses are generally bred so that each breed compliments the other physically and they are pretty tried and tested. There are those I don't understand (WB x Iberian for example or Friesian x Iberian) but not sure either has really taken off. 
While there was a point in labradoodles I fail to see the point of crosses such as puggles and jugs-except that they are very cute as pups (but then all pups are cute) but then when grown can look quite odd (and thats being polite). I've no idea why someone would cross a pug with anything but especially a beagle tbh.


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## {97702} (17 May 2016)

I think Mother of Chickens sums up the difference between horse breeding and puppy farming admirably.

I also think that it is a very sad indictment of modern society that someone purports not to understand what is wrong with the intensive indescriminate breeding of dogs using unsuitable parents (who probably will have congenital health problems) in unsanitary unhealthy conditions - because  that is how the vast majority of designer canine cross breeds come about.   Or maybe that is just HHO for you - there were ever trolls who delighted in posting simply to wind others up.


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## ycbm (17 May 2016)

Lévrier;13264304 said:
			
		


			I think Mother of Chickens sums up the difference between horse breeding and puppy farming admirably.

I also think that it is a very sad indictment of modern society that someone purports not to understand what is wrong with the intensive indescriminate breeding of dogs using unsuitable parents (who probably will have congenital health problems) in unsanitary unhealthy conditions - because  that is how the vast majority of designer canine cross breeds come about.   Or maybe that is just HHO for you - there were ever trolls who delighted in posting simply to wind others up.
		
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I take it your 'someone' is me?

I have made it very clear throughout this entire thread, which incidentally I did not start, that I am talking only about responsible breeding of wanted dogs, not of indiscriminate breeding.

I did not purport not to understand what is wrong with the intensive indiscriminate breeding of dogs. Any idiot can see what is wrong with that.

Sadly you did not bother to actually read my posts before launching this attack. Your post is offensive.


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## Dobiegirl (17 May 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			Do you know the person to whom the OP refers?  Can you explain their needs or circumstances?  No,  and neither do any of us.

Perhaps in your perfect and ordered world you may consider that you may not be quite so quick to judge.

Alec.
		
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Do we know if this person actually exists, I dont know and neither do you, from experience unscrupulous people breed dogs for money without consideration of health tests, thats fact and the only difference between them and puppy farmers are the scale of operations. 

Ive been short of money and could well have bred my bitch to earn a bit extra  but as I said that would make me a hypocrite, it seems to me a few nerves have been hit by this thread, sometimes home truths will do that.


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## Alec Swan (17 May 2016)

MotherOfChickens said:



			half bred horses are generally bred so that each breed compliments the other physically and they are pretty tried and tested. &#8230;&#8230;...
		
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But then the point to breeding a horse is that it will have a 'use' to us.  How many dogs are bred,  via what ever route,  with an intended purpose beyond being pets,  or ornaments?  Few,  I'd suggest.

I'm with you in that the obscure and sometimes weird crosses,  seem to be rather pointless,  beyond creating trinkets.  If it hasn't happened,  in time someone will AI a Dachshund dog to a Great Dane bitch.

Alec.


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## Leo Walker (17 May 2016)

ycbm said:



			I take it your 'someone' is me?

I have made it very clear throughout this entire thread, which incidentally I did not start, that I am talking only about responsible breeding of wanted dogs, not of indiscriminate breeding.

I did not purport not to understand what is wrong with the intensive indiscriminate breeding of dogs. Any idiot can see what is wrong with that.

Sadly you did not bother to actually read my posts before launching this attack. Your post is offensive.
		
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I'm not launching an attack  But you did mention a bitch that was bred every year which isnt recommended and probably isnt responsible. Anyone who wants a crossbred dog can find one without buying one thats been bred on purpose. 

I echo the person who said that labradoodles etc always seem to be the ones running riot when out on walks!


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## ycbm (17 May 2016)

Dobiegirl said:



			Do we know if this person actually exists, I dont know and neither do you, from experience unscrupulous people breed dogs for money without consideration of health tests, thats fact and the only difference between them and puppy farmers are the scale of operations. 

Ive been short of money and could well have bred my bitch to earn a bit extra  but as I said that would make me a hypocrite, it seems to me a few nerves have been hit by this thread, sometimes home truths will do that.
		
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So if I understand you, then in your view it's impossible for anyone to ever ethically breed a cocker spaniel crossed with a poodle?

Do you have the same problem with people breeding horses, and if not, why not?

For the person who said if they wanted a poodle coat they would buy a poodle, my friend's miniature and standard KC poodles don't 'do it'  for me at all. I don't like their characters or the way they look. But I love cocker poos and if I wanted a dog I'd certainly consider one from a home that breeds ethically. Different folks for different strokes


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## ycbm (17 May 2016)

FrankieCob said:



			I'm not launching an attack  But you did mention a bitch that was bred every year which isnt recommended and probably isnt responsible. Anyone who wants a crossbred dog can find one without buying one thats been bred on purpose. 

I echo the person who said that labradoodles etc always seem to be the ones running riot when out on walks!
		
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But  nobody has explained to me why it is irresponsible to have one litter per year from a bitch. She would be in pup eight weeks, mothering eight weeks, and eight months of the year pup free. So why is that unethical? It surely can't be compared with puppy farming?  This is a serious question. I don't understand.

Yes you can find a cross breed if you want one, but if it's a puppy and you don't see its parents, you've no real idea what the dog will turn into, have you?

Puppy farming is evil, but they are farming 'pedigree'  dogs as well as 'designer' crosses. It's not a problem which has been created by demand for labradoodles and cocker poos, is it?


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## MotherOfChickens (17 May 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			But then the point to breeding a horse is that it will have a 'use' to us.  How many dogs are bred,  via what ever route,  with an intended purpose beyond being pets,  or ornaments?  Few,  I'd suggest.

I'm with you in that the obscure and sometimes weird crosses,  seem to be rather pointless,  beyond creating trinkets.  If it hasn't happened,  in time someone will AI a Dachshund dog to a Great Dane bitch.

Alec.
		
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arguably dogs have a use too-even as family pets we want them to be healthy, long lived, sound and not mental although they cost a little less to keep than the equine equivalent.             

obviously some pedigrees are mental and not healthy but people possibly buy the half breeds because they think they are getting guaranteed hybrid vigour.


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## Dobiegirl (17 May 2016)

ycbm said:



			So if I understand you, then in your view it's impossible for anyone to ever ethically breed a cocker spaniel crossed with a poodle?

Do you have the same problem with people breeding horses, and if not, why not?

For the person who said if they wanted a poodle coat they would buy a poodle, my friend's miniature and standard KC poodles don't 'do it'  for me at all. I don't like their characters or the way they look. But I love cocker poos and if I wanted a dog I'd certainly consider one from a home that breeds ethically. Different folks for different strokes 

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I never said that as well you know, if people have to breed then it should be ethically done as others have said umpteen times on this thread. You also didnt read my post as regards the horses either and its laughable although you dont like the character of Poodles but love Cockerpoos which are half Poodle and will have some of their character, it doesnt make sense and neither do you.


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## ycbm (17 May 2016)

I apologise that I misunderstood you. I really did think you were saying that it was always unethical to breed a cocker poodle cross. 

I'm sorry if that offended you.


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## CorvusCorax (17 May 2016)

It's not as simple as eight months pup free, bitches can take a long time to come back after breeding. Which has been explained by MurphysMinder.

Also, a bitch has two seasons a year. Breeding once a year is only one less than breeding the bitch back to back, which I find abhorrent.


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## splashgirl45 (17 May 2016)

ycbm said:



			But  nobody has explained to me why it is irresponsible to have one litter per year from a bitch. She would be in pup eight weeks, mothering eight weeks, and eight months of the year pup free. So why is that unethical? It surely can't be compared with puppy farming?  This is a serious question. I don't understand.

Yes you can find a cross breed if you want one, but if it's a puppy and you don't see its parents, you've no real idea what the dog will turn into, have you?



Puppy farming is evil, but they are farming 'pedigree'  dogs as well as 'designer' crosses. It's not a problem which has been created by demand for labradoodles and cocker poos, is it?
		
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they may do some purebreds but unfortunately the designer dogs are the majority as these people are in it for the money and designer dogs are sold for much more than pedigrees as was shown on the puppy programme last night when the man bought a poo type dog for  a huge amount of money, I think it was about £800.


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## {97702} (17 May 2016)

I see that as always your paranoia is alive, well and articulating itself on this thread YMCA - just to let you know, not everything has to be about you.....


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## ycbm (17 May 2016)

Lévrier;13264359 said:
			
		


			I see that as always your paranoia is alive, well and articulating itself on this thread YMCA - just to let you know, not everything has to be about you.....
		
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Well thank goodness for that   Apologies for having misunderstood you.


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## Alec Swan (17 May 2016)

Generally,  and not just on here,  those who wish to establish their own point will concentrate on the extremes,  and all so often taking their arguments to the point of offering insults.  To accuse ycbm of paranoia is offensive and serves no purpose and an apology would be in order,  though unlikely to be offered.   Few on here are qualified to judge the mental state of anyone,  very few,  despite their own experiences.

The argument which has been offered that bitches cycle twice a year makes for little sense.  I've had a great many dogs over the years and many of them females,  and I've yet to have one which cycles,  once mature,  any more often than annually.  I've also had collie bitches which have been out and working with pups of 5-6 weeks,  so given a suitable exercise regime,  there is no earthly reason why any bitch shouldn't give birth on an annual basis.  I should add,  that I've only ever bred to produce the pup that I want,  and then the surplus are sold.  Have I shown a profit over the stud fee and the cost of rearing the pups?  Of course I have,  and I'm not ashamed of that.

Alec.


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## CorvusCorax (17 May 2016)

All of our females have had two seasons.

A lot of the posts on this thread make no sense to me but there you go.


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## Dobiegirl (17 May 2016)

CorvusCorax said:



			All of our females have had two seasons.
		
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So have ours and have been different breeds, Corgi,Beagle,Collie,Lancashire Heelers, Dobermanns and a Battersea mongrel.


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## Alec Swan (17 May 2016)

It's interesting that others have experiences other than mine,  and genuinely so.  The simple fact is that once mature (an important point because early cycles can be all over the place!),  I cannot remember a bitch cycling more frequently than annually.  It obviously happens,  just not with any of mine!

Alec.


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## planete (18 May 2016)

Sighthound/lurcher type bitches usually only cycle once a year or even every eighteen months, particularly if they are hard worked.

I agree with various points made by opposing sides but rather think that breeding responsibly, and moderately, for an honest profit is not a crime.  After all, without breeders, domestic dogs would cease to exist.  Greed, and disregard of welfare are crimes tough.  Unfortunately, it would appear that pedigree and cross breed breeders can be equally guilty.

Buyers should also shoulder a certain amount of responsibility.  I am very sympathetic to anybody who hankers after a dog, but  most dogs in rescue are not there through a breeders fault but through the buyer's inadequacy. So far all of my foster lurchers have been failed by their owners.  They were abandoned, given up on, got in the way, or even abused through no fault of their own.

Most dogs are bought as pets now.  Should we not consider "petdom"  as a new valid 'working category' perhaps and make trainability and an equable temperament a more important attribute than looks nowadays for anything that is not going to actively work?  We could have 'working trials' for a pet category that would test dogs suitability as family pets, any mongrel or pedigree could take part.  Just a thought!  It might shift the emphasis from looks to personality eventually and help educate people.


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## PingPongPony (18 May 2016)

I don't have a problem with cross breeds as such if they are responsibly bred of course but then again I have a problem with irresponsible breeding, whether its of a cross breed or a pedigree.
What I do have a problem with is the common misconception that (and I am purely quoting things that have been said to me before)
1. my cavapoo is so much healthier than your toy poodle because they were bred to have the best of both breeds. *smacks head against wall*

2. my friend has a cockapoo, i'm gonna get one too because they're such an amazing BREED (lists all the amazing qualities that this ''breed'' has) and when asked if pup will be from same parents as her friends dog, nope. i then calmly explain that they're not a breed as such and they cannot expect to get a dog exactly like her friends as there is no typical ''breed'' characteristics (i know getting same dog isn't possible even when you do have a pedigree but you have more of an idea of what you can expect)

So I guess what I'm trying to say is that I have a problem with the common misconceptions that a lot of people seem to have, and this is purely down to how popular these designer dog names have become and the fact that more people hear about them, it has a cute unique name so it must be a breed. It's not the dogs themselves that irritate me, it's the people, as more and more people go for a designer breed because they are being told silly thing like ''they have the best of both breeds so no health problems'' bla bla bla.

As to the cross bred horses vs cross bred dogs. In the recent years there has been an increase of horses being bred for their colour eg. palomino, cremello etc. that apparently also makes that horse worth £1000 more automatically. Nevermind the fact its legs are really wonky so it's practically crippled for life, or that it lashes out at every human that comes close because well it's dad did that too, but he was a pretty colour so who cares right? Is this okay? Of course not, I don't agree with this at all just as I don't agree with breeding any animals without careful consideration as to the purpose of the offspring (be it working, pet etc) and of course health testing the parents. 
I do think that half bred horses are more 'okay' because more consideration goes into the breeding, there are a lot less horses being bred to be a pet, therefore more thought goes into their characteristics and what it is that you're trying to achieve in the foal, whereas with dogs, it seems that as long as you have something that resembles a poodle and something that resembles a cocker spaniel (just as an example) then you're good to go. It's not as easy for Mr.Smith down the road to go out and breed a foal, call it a designer name and sell it for a lot of money, however if Mr.Smith wanted to breed a designer dog, it'll be a lot simpler for him to do so. 

I'm rambling again! To summarise; any irresponsible breeding is bad, be it as dog, horse, cow, hamster or whatever else, an irresponsibly bred horse isn't any more okay than irresponsibly bred dog  easier to breed dogs = more badly bred dogs


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## Cinnamontoast (18 May 2016)

Morally and ethically, I would find it very suspect to breed a dog annually-to what purpose? Purely for profit? That will wear down a bitch and as mentioned, it takes a while for a dog to recover. Equally, churning out foals annually would make me sad. I see a breeder I know do this and regardless of quality and health of parents, I don't see the point. 

The amount of dogs in rescue would make me query constant breeding and using pet animals to fund your income strikes me as abhorrent. The whole designer thing has seen many dodgy breeders who are in for profit churn out pups to puppy farmer standards. There's a particularly foil bloke in The UK who uses the dogs he boards as studs and produces bassets X sharpeis with Queen Anne legs, horrific conformation. Of course he charges stupid money.


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## Cinnamontoast (18 May 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			It's interesting that others have experiences other than mine,  and genuinely so.  The simple fact is that once mature (an important point because early cycles can be all over the place!),  I cannot remember a bitch cycling more frequently than annually.  It obviously happens,  just not with any of mine!

Alec.
		
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Possibly silent seasons. It would be very unusual for a bitch to only have one season annually.


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## MurphysMinder (18 May 2016)

I'm not going to comment further on someone breeding a litter every year purely to make money.  However ycbm you say you love cockerpoos and would consider having one - can I ask what sort of cockerpoo ?  The cross is quite popular in agility because they are often active , intelligent dogs.  They compete across the size range,  some in small, some in medium and I have seen a couple who are standard height.  Some have poodle like coats,  some soft wavy coats and some wiry terrier like coats.   So my point is how can anyone  choose this and similar crosses because they like the "breed",  its a complete gamble in my experience how the dog will turn out,  even from the same litter.


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## paddi22 (18 May 2016)

i just don't get the point of breeding unless you've an absolutely spectacular dog or need it for a specific purpose.  Same wth horses.

I alwasy wanted a retriever but wouldn't justify paying a breeder when there are so many dogs in rescue shelters. Waited round for a few months and eventually got a fantastic 2 year old retriever from a rescue.  Gorgeous dog, exactly what we want. Of course I would have loved a puppy to train, but the benefits of saving a good dog outweigh the losses of having a cute puppy. We have beautiful family pet now and i'm delighted i didn't go an spent 400 quid and instead saved a good dog.


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## Alec Swan (18 May 2016)

I believe that dogs are bred for one of two reasons,  discounting accidents!  

Firstly,  to promote the breed or type and so test the breeder's beliefs or theories,  which will be tested or promoted,  and/or &#8230;&#8230;..

Secondly,  to make money with no thought to anything other than that.

Over the years I've had others ask for an opinion,  and I've asked them why they're of the opinion that they are,  and generally they've come back with the reply "Because that's what the breeder told me".  Pointing out that the quote and so the breeder are quite wrong,  sometimes comes as a surprise.  The stories and quotes which I could offer would astound you!

It's my belief,  and I accept that it's a generalisation,  but perhaps 10% of those who breed dogs actually know what they're doing,  or even care.  The remainder have bought a bitch,  put her in pup and are suddenly elevated to the lofty position of being a 'Breeder'.  They are of course,  just that,  a 'breeder',  but any success will be a case of luck,  and little else,  with failure being the more likely result.

**As a disclaimer** Those on here who've bred a dog or two,  one in particular,  simply by their presence here,  would have opinions which should be considered.  Sadly though,  in the wider world,  be their products pure bred or not,  most breeders do the dogs which they promote a grave disservice,  and certainly in the pedigree market,  their offerings are the evidence.  Considering the pedigree market,  the Kennel Club are not fit for purpose.

Alec.


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## MagicMelon (18 May 2016)

ycbm said:



			I'm really struggling to understand what is wrong with breeding from good parents for colour and cuteness. The cocker poos  and labradoodles I know are all delightful dogs utterly adored by their owners.

Many of the pedigree dogs, on the other hand, look to me as if they are approaching being deformed. 

Nothing should be bred just because they are cute and lovely? All horse cross breeds have a job to do? Tell that to my completely loved and cherished miniature paint  Shetland. Shock, horror, she's my toy as far as I'm concerned.

Price is only an indicator of demand. These dogs aren't overpriced, they sell at that price because people want them 

There is so much snobbery in dog breeding, thankfully it isn't the same level in cats, where most of us own moggies.
		
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Whilst I'm not really into colour, I couldnt care less what colours my animals are or how particularily cute they are   But saying that my labradoodle is just the perfect family dog. I decided to go for one because I liked the general temperaments of labradors and poodles so the mix is great.  I agree, surely pedigree dog breeding is worse as they are PURELY breeding for how they look and move and not at all on their temperament.  I think people need to remember that people also have other requirements - we went for a labradoodle (and pedigree Bengal cats) because they are far better for my other half who is allergic to them!  He couldnt cope with our previous moggy cats and his own family dogs whereas with these he is far better. I would never have chosen to buy a cat if he hadnt had his allergy (my mother worked for the CPL for years so we've done our fair share of taking on rescues!).  

I just think there's a place for all and people shouldn't be so snobby about these half breeds calling them "mutts" in a derogatory fashion.


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## CorvusCorax (18 May 2016)

If the mentioned bitch is bred every year, the litters are of average size and the pups are sold locally, and they're not registered, no proof of who is who, is there not a worry about quite close interbreeding down the line? That's often a criticism of 'pedigree' breeders, is it not....

Ps There's only a 50/50 change that a first cross will be hypoallergenic.


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## Alec Swan (18 May 2016)

planete said:



			Sighthound/lurcher type bitches usually only cycle once a year or even every eighteen months, particularly if they are hard worked.

&#8230;&#8230;.. .
		
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I don't and never have had dogs simply as pets,  so you may well have a valid point in that bitches which are truly 'fit' would be less likely to cycle twice yearly.  I'm not sure,  but I can only speak from my own experience.

Alec.


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## Alec Swan (18 May 2016)

There's another aspect to consider;  Not all,  but many breeders know,  all too well,  that the buyer of a pup will 'fall-in-love' with the pup and when the problems arise,  as they often do,  then the owner/buyer is highly unlikely to return the pup and demand a replacement or their money back.

Whilst many consider puppies to be household appliances,  they aren't,  except of course,  we don't fall in love with a fridge (the contents possibly),  do we?  

Returning a defective fridge is a simple matter.  Not so a puppy,  and upon that point,  many breeders are reliant.

Alec.


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## Crackerz (18 May 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			Whilst many consider puppies to be household appliances,  they aren't,  except of course,  we don't fall in love with a fridge (the contents possibly),  do we?  

Alec.
		
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I fell in love with a mug i got for Christmas, smashed it last week and was so distraught, OH ordered me the same mug which arrived yesterday - does that count??


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## Dobiegirl (18 May 2016)

Unfortunately these designer breeds are fuelled by the puppy farming trade, if anyone had watched the Panorama programme on Monday you will have seen this. Dealear buy these puppies and sell to unsuspecting buyers with claims they are home bred, they even loan a bitch from the puppy farm to complete the deception.

Im not being snobby about these half breeds its the trade that fuels them I hate. Magic Melon did you read the link to the guy who first thought of this cross breed, its a real eye opener and he regrets it very much.


Unfortunately and in my experience people who pay huge amounts for these dogs are in complete denial about the origins of their dog, they may well have a lovely pet dog as a result but some poor bitch and stud dog are paying a terrible price for that privilege.


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## CorvusCorax (18 May 2016)

Another observation is that no one really wants to think or be told they've spent too much money on something. Some tend to vent at the people who suggest that, rather than the person who charged it or themselves for not shopping around. Same goes for fridges.


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## Luci07 (18 May 2016)

My very strong dislike of the DD label for these dogs is that people are frequently paying a premium for these dogs and assume they have the attributes they want from each breed. The first breeder who started this was specifically breeding for a purpose with healthy dogs. This has been lost by unscrupulous people jumping on the bandwagon. The animals who lose out are the dogs who become bigger/more energetic/shed hair than their owners thought and get dumped. These "breeders" are no better than the pedigree breeders who kept breeding for show over health. As for looking down on these dogs, I don't. I have Staffords...try having these as a pet if you want to know about having dogs people look down on.


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## Alec Swan (18 May 2016)

Crackerz said:



			I fell in love with a mug i got for Christmas, smashed it last week and was so distraught, OH ordered me the same mug which arrived yesterday - does that count??  

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Only if you managed to interact with the said 'mug'. 

Alec.


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## splashgirl45 (18 May 2016)

Dobiegirl said:



			Unfortunately these designer breeds are fuelled by the puppy farming trade, if anyone had watched the Panorama programme on Monday you will have seen this. Dealear buy these puppies and sell to unsuspecting buyers with claims they are home bred, they even loan a bitch from the puppy farm to complete the deception.

Im not being snobby about these half breeds its the trade that fuels them I hate. Magic Melon did you read the link to the guy who first thought of this cross breed, its a real eye opener and he regrets it very much.


Unfortunately and in my experience people who pay huge amounts for these dogs are in complete denial about the origins of their dog, they may well have a lovely pet dog as a result but some poor bitch and stud dog are paying a terrible price for that privilege.
		
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I totally agree.  I also saw the panorama programme and felt more upset for the breeding animals, what an awful life they have and how on earth do these breeders get away with what they do...at least the puppies get to see a bit of fresh air although many don't live for long according to the programme....this is the sort of thing the rspca and other organisations need to focus on and prosecute these people rather than focusing on prosecuting hunting people...the fox may have a short while of being chased these poor animals have a lifetime of bad treatment....no comparison IMO...


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## Clodagh (18 May 2016)

To me a cockerpoo is a mongrel, and I don't say that in a derogatory way, I have a lurcher, who is a true mutt from a travellers camp with about 50 different breeds in her genetic make up, she is fab. My OH is a retired terrierman and he has had all shapes and sizes of terriers, mostly mutts, over the years, and they have been absolutely fit for purpose. 
Several of my friends have got cockerpoos, one experienced dog woman who has several other dogs,and two people who got them as subsitute children. They look alike, the siblings, and behave as you would expect any dog to behave allowing for their upbringing. I really like them, good fun sensibly sized dogs. I wouldn't want the grooming bills which are astronomical and I like dogs to have a job but as for being 'fit for purpose', they really are, they are fun active little dogs who make their owners very happy. Would I pay more than £100 for a mongrel? No. If someone else would who are we to argue?


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## RunToEarth (19 May 2016)

MagicMelon said:



			Whilst I'm not really into colour, I couldnt care less what colours my animals are or how particularily cute they are   But saying that my labradoodle is just the perfect family dog. I decided to go for one because I liked the general temperaments of labradors and poodles so the mix is great.  I agree, surely pedigree dog breeding is worse as they are PURELY breeding for how they look and move and not at all on their temperament.  I think people need to remember that people also have other requirements - we went for a labradoodle (and pedigree Bengal cats) because they are far better for my other half who is allergic to them!  He couldnt cope with our previous moggy cats and his own family dogs whereas with these he is far better. I would never have chosen to buy a cat if he hadnt had his allergy (my mother worked for the CPL for years so we've done our fair share of taking on rescues!).  

I just think there's a place for all and people shouldn't be so snobby about these half breeds calling them "mutts" in a derogatory fashion.
		
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Firstly, here's the guy who designed them, confessing his deep regret, for reasons already addressed in this thread: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/lifestyle/pets/10626590/Breeders-regret-over-creating-labradoodle.html

You cannot guarantee their non shedding hair - it depends on the cross, they were marketed quite incorrectly as some wonder dog for people with allergies, which is one of many reasons that they end up in rescue, when their owners become allergic. 

Whether you find it offensive or not, it is a fact that your dog is a mongrel - it isn't a derogatory term, I'm not being snobby, I don't have a stick up my arse, it is just the definition of crossing breeds. 

I, like others, are always baffled when people state that they "love a cockerpoo". It has no breed standard, it is a mongrel. Cocker spaniels vary hugely depending on their breeding lines as do poodles, stating you "love a cockerpoo" to me is like stating you love a terrier - possibilities are endless. 

Even with health tested parents, there is a huge question mark regarding how your puppy will turn out, both aesthetically and physically. By breeding a pedigree in line with their breed standard, with the relevant health tests, you are much more likely to add 2 + 2 and get 4.


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## ycbm (19 May 2016)

DR, do you have a problem with people calling horses Anglo Arabs or Irish Drafts or Warmbloods?


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## CorvusCorax (19 May 2016)

Lurchers aren't called Salukollies or Greydeers or Beardhounds or Bullwhipps.


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## ycbm (19 May 2016)

CorvusCorax said:



			Lurchers aren't called Salukollies or Greydeers or Beardhounds or Bullwhipps.
		
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What problems would it cause if they were?


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## CorvusCorax (19 May 2016)

None. But it's widely acknowledged that these are crosses, a 'type' not a 'breed' with a made up name. You can get a cracking lurcher that can work/sofa surf/whatever around here for £200 or less. No special name, no inflated pricetag, and I find them nice to look at.

How do people feel about normal piebald cobs being called 'gypsy vanners' with a few extra £££ on the pricetag?


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## ycbm (19 May 2016)

CorvusCorax said:



			None. But it's widely acknowledged othat these are crosses, a 'type' not a 'breed' with a made up name. You can get a cracking lurcher that can work/sofa surf/whatever around here for £200 or less. No special name, no inflated pricetag, and I find them nice to look at.

How do people feel about normal piebald cobs being called 'gypsy vanners' with a few extra £££ on the pricetag?
		
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Why would anyone have a problem with it? No-one is forcing anyone to pay any particular amount of money for them. There is a breed standard, too, and specialist BD dressage competition for them.

It's no different from me wondering why anyone buys an iphone/ipad  when an Android phone/tablet costs so much less.


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## CorvusCorax (19 May 2016)

I don't know if people have a problem with it or not, which is why I was asking how people felt. The same as the OP has asked a question which people are answering.....

ETA You and the OP have drawn parallels with the horse world, so am I, if that's OK of course....


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## Dobiegirl (19 May 2016)

Some very good points by CC.

Another point to consider is these Anglo Arabs etc are not bred in huge numbers in conditions which are unfortunately the lot of puppy farmed dogs and whether you like it or not these designer dogs are mostly bred by these puppy farmers because they can charge ridiculous prices knowing the gullible will pay it for the latest fashion statement.

On the Panorama programme a huge super store was selling these dogs to celebs, this superstore was buying from the puppy farmers, lots of people follow these celebs so what they buy is important to them and they will do the same.


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## gunnergundog (19 May 2016)

MagicMelon said:



			I agree, surely pedigree dog breeding is worse as they are PURELY breeding for how they look and move and not at all on their temperament. .
		
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Wrong!  Oh, so wrong!  Temperament is specified in the KC breed standard.  The breed however may specify that the dog should be 'stand-offish', for instance, and breeders will breed to that.  

People need to remember the origins of these dogs;  many working dogs may be 'sharper' than that required as a family pet - likewise those of guarding breeds, with more drive as well.  There are however plenty of pedigree dogs with temperaments designed to be a lap dog/companion dog/family pet, so please do not say that pedigree dogs are not bred for temperament.  They are - it just may not be the temperament of your choosing. 

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/activities/dog-showing/breed-standards/about-breed-standards/

What is a breed standard?

Essentially, the breed standard is the picture in words for how a breed should look and also details the temperament of a breed.


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## ycbm (19 May 2016)

Puppy farming is evil.

But it's got nothing to do with the names the dogs are given, has it?   If those dogs were not popular, something else would be. I understand Chihuahuas and other handbag dogs are being handed in at rescue centres in droves at the moment. Most of those were probably farmed. I saw a woman on TV pay hundreds for a 'pedigree Westie' with faked papers which was definitely mostly Bichon Frise (sp?) and had droopy ears.

Yes, puppy farming is evil. Getting bent out of shape about what people want to call their dogs won't stop them, but I hope some way can be found to do it.


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## CorvusCorax (19 May 2016)

I've seen dogs be excused from the show ring because of their temperaments and I wish it would happen more often.

In my own sport there is a temperament test before each competition and the dog cannot compete if it fails. Indeed the entire sport originated as a selection process for whether or not an animal should be bred from.


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## Kaylum (19 May 2016)

CorvusCorax said:



			None. But it's widely acknowledged that these are crosses, a 'type' not a 'breed' with a made up name. You can get a cracking lurcher that can work/sofa surf/whatever around here for £200 or less. No special name, no inflated pricetag, and I find them nice to look at.

How do people feel about normal piebald cobs being called 'gypsy vanners' with a few extra £££ on the pricetag?
		
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Small piebald colts are basically worthless and we have seen an increase of these just being dumped. 

We need to look at the root cause which is humans, its what they want not what they need.  

Big coloured cobs but smaller ones nobody wants those.  

These coloured cobs you wouldn't touch 30 years ago as they were classed as working horses.   The fashion goes on.  

Dog fashions, horse fashions, gadget fashions the list is endless. We are greedy and we want more.  It is the western way of life.


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## GeeGeeboy (19 May 2016)

I'm a dog groomer and believe me these designer breeds such as Labradoodles sometimes do shed hair! It makes sense as pure bred Labs are one of the worst breeds for shedding so if your 'doodle' is half of that what do think is going to happen?!


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## Dobiegirl (19 May 2016)

GeeGeeboy said:



			I'm a dog groomer and believe me these designer breeds such as Labradoodles sometimes do shed hair! It makes sense as pure bred Labs are one of the worst breeds for shedding so if your 'doodle' is half of that what do think is going to happen?!
		
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Exactly and why so many are coming into rescue, people think they are going to get a non shedding dog but the reality is so different plus the loopy temperament is another reason.


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## CorvusCorax (19 May 2016)

Oh and to add to the breeding for looks thing, I was contacted by a woman who was insistent she wanted to use my dog at stud. I had never met her. The only things she knew about my dog were his breed and his colour....nothing about his health status, nothing about his temperament and she got defensive when I suggested this should have been her priority. This was a 'pet' breeder as her dog, as described, would be ineligible to show because of its colour.


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## galaxy (19 May 2016)

Ive had thus discussion with a friend. To me it's not a snobbery that it's a cross breed, it's more to be sure of what you are buying,

As a majority, most people buy horses as adults, not foals. As an adult, probably broken in, you can assess the horses conformation, it's temperament and if it will suit what you want it for. However the majority of people buy puppies, maybe these cross breeds and at 8 weeks old it is not possible unless you have a crystal ball to know exactly what that puppy is going to grow up to look like and the temperament it will have (discounting training you put in). therefore buying a pedigree, both parents the same breed, increases the chances of you ending up with what you planned. If you buy a cross is could be a lot more like one parent than the other. 

Just my thoughts


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## PucciNPoni (19 May 2016)

galaxy said:



			Ive had thus discussion with a friend. To me it's not a snobbery that it's a cross breed, it's more to be sure of what you are buying,

As a majority, most people buy horses as adults, not foals. As an adult, probably broken in, you can assess the horses conformation, it's temperament and if it will suit what you want it for. However the majority of people buy puppies, maybe these cross breeds and at 8 weeks old it is not possible unless you have a crystal ball to know exactly what that puppy is going to grow up to look like and the temperament it will have (discounting training you put in). therefore buying a pedigree, both parents the same breed, increases the chances of you ending up with what you planned. If you buy a cross is could be a lot more like one parent than the other. 

Just my thoughts
		
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I think that is as good of an explanation as any  - and one I'm inclined to agree with. 

More money being exchanged and a much bigger commitment when it comes down to it.  So perhaps cross bred horses are more carefully considered before being bred, bought, sold, etc.  How many people will vet a horse versus vet a pet dog?  Even happy hackers will at least consider a vetting.  

But dogs sadly are more of a cheap commodity.  Your average pet dog owner maybe has never owned one before, and just buys cute and fluffy rather than a working dog.  So just about "anything goes" whereas a first time horse owner maybe has had lessons, maybe takes a horse person to view, maybe takes their riding instructor or whatever.  FIrst time dog owners phone up from an ad in gumtree and buy a westiedoodle when they thought they were getting a pomapoo.  

As for the cute names.  Gah.  Hate them.  I hate it in horses as much as I do dogs.  No I don't mean I dislike the dogs or horses.  I don't mind the terms Anglo Arab or Lurcher.  I don't like QuarterMor, Quarab, Morab, Welarab etc. I am used to labradoodle and cockerpoo because it's been beat in to me.  But I hate yorkipoo, cavachon etc as terms.  Means absolutely nothing.


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## ericcanride (19 May 2016)

Ummm that's a little strange to hear. In Vancouver, I'm sure in all Canada, we love all kinds of dogs (Pets). Mix breed or not. My cousin had a Rottweiler / German shepherd dog. Friendly guy but I wouldn't be on his bad side. RIP Simba


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## Meowy Catkin (19 May 2016)

The issue I have with designer crossbreed dogs is simply the vast number that are bred at puppy farms by cruel and greedy people. I have no issue with a crossbred dog that is responsibly and kindly bred.


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## Shantara (25 May 2016)

I'm on the fence will all this to be honest. My old girl Annie was a ColliexLab and she was fantastic! 

I'm all for a healthy animal. I can't stand unhealthy dogs, pure or not! Pugs are horrific! I met one the other day and it could barely breathe, it'd been out for less than a 5min walk. Why would you inflict that on an animal? If a horse acted like that, it'd be shot!!
All these dogs with legs that are too short, skin that's too loose, backs that slope, noses too short, eyes that bulge, bred too big, bred too small! 

I think, as Galaxy mentioned, we often get dogs as puppies, but horses as trained adults. So we're more likely to look at the actual horse, than the parentage/breed. If we get a trained adult dog, or a foal, I suspect we wouldn't question a good dogs parents and we would want to see the foals parents or at least know the breeding. 

So, perhaps it's more a case of when you buy them and what you're looking for.


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