# Have we got it wrong?



## Alexa123 (1 December 2016)

I have been a  horse owner and H&H reader for some time and like most, it has not always been plain sailing.  I'd be very interested to see what others think of this horse trainer's opinion (see link below) regarding the perennial behaviour/pain debate. My understanding was that the majority of behaviour-related problems with our horses were pain related, but now I'm wondering if my whole approach has been wrong all along? Take a look:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUlMWGLsbCw


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## Cortez (1 December 2016)

Absolutely! Perhaps it is more comfortable for riders to believe that the cause of their problems is external rather than simply due to incompetant riding?

(Which in my experience is the cause in 99% of cases....)


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## BBP (1 December 2016)

Tricky one. I blamed my incompetent riding skills for my horses behaviour. Then found out he had ulcers, RER, sacroiliac pain, allergies, changed the saddle and bridle and now I have Mr (Almost) Perfect! I am still an imperfect rider. I think you need to look at the whole picture, but certainly don't ignore the effect your riding/handling capabilities have on your horse.

That said, it may be that the sacroiliac issue was due to me riding him incorrectly and allowing that region to become weak and surceptible to injury. It's all about finding the root cause.


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## rifruffian (1 December 2016)

The nature of the character and attitude of the horse handler/rider is most vital aspect of equine training.
That should include a willingness to remember and recognise that horse might have pain.


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## eggs (1 December 2016)

Pain should never be ruled out as a reason but I tend to agree with Michael Peace and Cortez that it is rarely the real underlying issue.  Poor riding and handling of the horse is usually the root cause.


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## milliepops (1 December 2016)

Cortez said:



			Absolutely! Perhaps it is more comfortable for riders to believe that the cause of their problems is external rather than simply due to incompetant riding?

(Which in my experience is the cause in 99% of cases....)
		
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It's easier for some people to call in a professional (saddle fitter/vet/farrier/physio etc) and hand over a problem than it is to put hours and hours of work and self examination in to improve their riding.
I think that's the thing, it really does take effort to learn how to ride, and it's something that we all have to continue to put effort into, every time we sit on a horse.  Progress can be slow and painful   Once you acknowledge that it's kind of easier to come to terms with!

I think we owe it to horses to make sure they are fit, well, comfortable and able to perform. After that, common things are common - I think most behavioural issues are training/handling related. Some stem from the horse's character but I'd say most are inadvertently created by owners. 
 My dressage trainer often remarks of napping horses that "it can't only have kissing spines by the gate"


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## Antw23uk (1 December 2016)

I cant stop looking at that lower leg waving about! What was the question, lol!


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## Alexa123 (1 December 2016)

"it can't only have kissing spines by the gate" 

Haha! Now THAT probably sums it up the best. 

I think it's time to hang up my boots!


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## Rowreach (1 December 2016)

The bigger picture must be looked at as all sorts of things contribute to all types of behaviour - and finding the root cause can be tricky.  But it was not all that long ago on this forum that the idea of checking teeth/back/saddle fit was considered to be quite radical, and most behavioural "problems" in horses were put down to them being "naughty" ....


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## ozpoz (1 December 2016)

Alexa123 said:



			"it can't only have kissing spines by the gate" 

Haha! Now THAT probably sums it up the best. 

I think it's time to hang up my boots!
		
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But... 
We know that tension will increase the intensity and tolerance of pain, so can nappy behaviour shouldn't be discounted as possible indicator.
I think that better investigatory methods, scanning, have made people hugely more aware. I could ride my old boy strongly enough and he would comply perfectly but knowing his genuine pain issues prefer to let him enjoy his retirement. 
How else are they supposed to let you know?


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## milliepops (1 December 2016)

Rowreach said:



			But it was not all that long ago on this forum that the idea of checking teeth/back/saddle fit was considered to be quite radical, and most behavioural "problems" in horses were put down to them being "naughty" ....
		
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And that is also quite incorrect IMO, horses aren't generally 'naughty' even when they display behaviour that is contrary to what we want from them... they are opportunists, naturally will seek what they deem as the easy way out when presented with an option, and quite understandably they don't share our dreams of riding glory   It would pay for more people to recognise that  

Always worth giving the horse the benefit of the doubt re pain or discomfort... but frequently the cause will lie elsewhere.


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## milliepops (1 December 2016)

ozpoz said:



			But... 
We know that tension will increase the intensity and tolerance of pain, so can nappy behaviour shouldn't be discounted as possible indicator.
		
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No, but you'd expect it to nap all the way round an arena, not just by the door. That was the point he was making.  If turning right by the door triggered a painful reaction, then turning right by the mirror, or the mounting block, or generally ANYWHERE would do the same


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## Annagain (1 December 2016)

milliepops said:



			No, but you'd expect it to nap all the way round an arena, not just by the door. That was the point he was making.  If turning right by the door triggered a painful reaction, then turning right by the mirror, or the mounting block, or generally ANYWHERE would do the same 

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But if he's hurting the whole time and he knows that going through that gate is going to stop it, you can understand why he wants to go through it. The rest of the circuit of the school is just a means of getting back to the gate.


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## milliepops (1 December 2016)

annagain said:



			But if he's hurting the whole time and he knows that going through that gate is going to stop it, you can understand why he wants to go through it. The rest of the circuit of the school is just a means of getting back to the gate.
		
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Hmmm. I would certainly expect a horse who had napping triggered by pain to nap all over the shop in the school, and elsewhere - hacking etc. 

On the flip side, how often do you see little kids ponies taking advantage of their tiny jockeys, napping to the gate or to the grass etc. I don't think all of them have kissing spines or ulcers  I do think we risk overlooking the obvious *sometimes*.  I have already said twice on this thread that the horse should have the benefit of the doubt but pain is not always the reason for unwanted behaviour.


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## SEL (1 December 2016)

I'm considering sending mine off to bootcamp - freely admit that sorting out her hacking anxiety and bucking might be beyond my experience level - BUT in getting to that decision I have covered the following;

Saddle fit - tree on original saddle was twisted. Saddle changed but bucking still there.
Physio - weakness down one side. Does not explain bucking.
PSSM - might explain bucking but no other symptoms kicking in
Hock x-rats - arthritis at 6. Another possible explanation for the bucking if the joint is starting to ache or causing problems elsewhere. She's going on bute & I'll see if the behaviour is still there.

I know my limitations, but I also think we owe it to our horses to check them physically first. We have a young lad on our yard who spent 6 months with a big name trainer & he's come back with the view that the horse should behave 'no matter what'. Personally I think that leads to shut down horses who stop telling us they hurt because no one is listening.


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## Alexa123 (1 December 2016)

Interesting responses and highlight just how contentious the topic is.  I suppose the thing that so many of today's horse owners lack is TIME and MONEY - and horses require a lot of both. I think many problems arise when horse and rider are RUSHED. Rushed because they have to be at their desk by 9, they have to pick the children up at 3, it's dark by 4, they have to drive 20 miles to the only livery yard around with more than a pocket handkerchief for turnout. The list goes on.  Maybe, as mentioned in the post on 'the next big thing for equestrianism' we are moving back to a time when horses are the privilege of the wealthy few.


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## Annagain (1 December 2016)

milliepops said:



			Hmmm. I would certainly expect a horse who had napping triggered by pain to nap all over the shop in the school, and elsewhere - hacking etc. 

On the flip side, how often do you see little kids ponies taking advantage of their tiny jockeys, napping to the gate or to the grass etc. I don't think all of them have kissing spines or ulcers  I do think we risk overlooking the obvious *sometimes*.  I have already said twice on this thread that the horse should have the benefit of the doubt but pain is not always the reason for unwanted behaviour.
		
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Totally agree, just don't think that naughtiness / opportunism (whatever you want to call it) is the only explanation for napping at the gate. When I first had my boy we did a lot of group riding club lessons. The flat work was always either open order or we'd have a bit of fun doing drill riding so he was never off on his own, with all the others in one spot. With the jumping, the other horses would all stand in the middle while we went round one at a time. He would always nap to other horses which we put down to behaviour. With hindsight we know now that jumping was hurting him. If he was standing in the middle with them, he was jumping and it wasn't hurting. The strange thing was he only ever napped from 2 positions. I realise now they were the corners which allowed a diagonal line back to the others so the turn less severe. The rest of the circuit was getting him to the least painful position to nap from so he was shutting down and just getting through that bit. He also only napped on the right rein. He could obviously just about deal with going left but not right. We put the napping when jumping down to exactly that as he was never away on his own to have others to nap to on the flat, but in reality, the flat wasn't causing him so much pain so he wasn't looking for an out.

Ruling out pain, then dealing with the issue (including my riding if needs be) is the way I'd go every time.


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## ycbm (1 December 2016)

My dressage trainer often remarks of napping horses that "it can't only have kissing spines by the gate
		
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How else can a stoic and good natured horse which has kissing spines try to gently tell its owner that it really needs to stop being ridden?

These horses sometimes only play up in competition, too, or in one movement, or particular weather conditions.  It's a case of straws that break the camel's back.

It took me far too long to realise that my kissing spines horse, though working fine at home, threw a strop at the letters in a dressage arena because that's where the transitions happened, and transitions hurt.

I'm firmly on the side of ruling out pain first, then sorting out the behaviour.

I would rather see any number of incompetent riders look for pain in their horses than bear the thought of how many good natured, stoic horses out there are working in pain.


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## milliepops (1 December 2016)

annagain said:



			He also only napped on the right rein.
		
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This, for me, would be the sign that the horse likely had a physical problem rather than a training issue....




			Ruling out pain, then dealing with the issue (including my riding if needs be) is the way I'd go every time.
		
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...if you read my posts we're saying the same things   Just our recent experiences are the opposites to each other so the emphasis is different. I've got a napper, but despite best efforts I absolutely can't find anything wrong with her!  She just needs retraining! :lol:


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## madlady (1 December 2016)

Alexa123 said:



			Interesting responses and highlight just how contentious the topic is.  I suppose the thing that so many of today's horse owners lack is TIME and MONEY - and horses require a lot of both. I think many problems arise when horse and rider are RUSHED. Rushed because they have to be at their desk by 9, they have to pick the children up at 3, it's dark by 4, they have to drive 20 miles to the only livery yard around with more than a pocket handkerchief for turnout. The list goes on.  Maybe, as mentioned in the post on 'the next big thing for equestrianism' we are moving back to a time when horses are the privilege of the wealthy few.
		
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I'd also say that a major factor is that a lot of owners lack experience and knowledge.  If the owner doesn't know the most basic of things then how can they be expected to spot the more complex things.

I have said for many years that people should have to have a basic horse management qualification before they own a horse.


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## milliepops (1 December 2016)

ycbm said:



			How else can a stoic and good natured horse which has kissing spines try to gently tell its owner that it really needs to stop being ridden?

These horses very sometimes only play up in competition, too, or in one movement, or particular weather conditions.  It's a case of straws that break the camel's back.

It took me far too long to realise that my kissing spines horse, though working fine at home, threw a strop at the letters in a dressage arena because that's where the transitions happened, and transitions hurt.

I'm firmly on the side of ruling out pain first, then sorting out the behaviour.
		
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Ok. To add additional details to something that was supposed to be quite light hearted.  The horse I was riding napped on a right turn as we turned away from the arena door. She also had to do the same right turn at the next corner, and the next, and the next.  Only the one by the door produced a nap.
If it was the mechanics of the right turn that produced the pain, then surely each of those turns should have resulted in a nap. By which I mean, a resistance, the horse refusing to go in the direction or manner intended.  Rather, she sweetly went along with the exercise until facing the door again.... 
Tell me, should I have investigated my horse for kissing spines in case she was only remembering to tell me about it by the door?  

(Eta. It occurs to me that sometimes we use the horse's natural tendency to nap towards things to our benefit... how often do you hear people starting to teach leg yield saying to LY towards the fence, because the arena fence is like a magnet that the horse falls towards? or start a young horse jumping by putting the fence going 'towards home'. just an aside, lol)

It sounds like yours is an entirely different case and more like annagain's, with a clear pattern.

As riders, many of us question ourselves the minute the horses says 'nah' or 'i don't fancy that'.  While it's good to double check that you haven't been unfair to the horse,  that hesitation can stop us from being effective, and you can compound a problem that started out as a simple, natural questioning on the horse's part and turn it into a learned behaviour.    My horse has been taught to nap by her previous owners who found themselves overhorsed and lacking the knowledge or confidence to be a leader when she needed it.



For the record, for perhaps the 4th time, I absolutely agree with seeking professional and/or veterinary advice if there is the mere whiff of something physical that needs attention.


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## ozpoz (1 December 2016)

It isn't just the physical movement which can cause increased stress/resisistance leading to muscle tightening, and in turn,  increased pain. 

The horse's thought processes can also lead to greater stress, unwilling to leave exits, etc. which could cause a pain reaction through tightening across a problem area. Back, sacroiliac and neck being harder to investigate compared to limbs.

With 50% of the UK's sport horses lame , as a recent study showed, surely it's  time for us rider's to do our utmost to recognise and avoid discounting signs of possible pain in our horses.


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## ycbm (1 December 2016)

Milliepops, my point is that you can't tell. I had very experienced riders, including a listed dressage judge at a competition and an Inter II level rider/trainer on this forum tell me that my kissing spines horse was misbehaving because I couldn't ride him. 'He needs a man on him' and 'You haven't got the balls to ride him'  we're the expressions used.

As above, two recent studies have shown that even experienced trainers can't spot when a horse is lame. New diseases like PSSM and ESPA are being found to account for what were previously 'lazy' or 'temperamental' horses.

And therefore I would rather see a numpty rider investigate a  horse for pain than see experienced riders use their skill to make a horse do what they want it to do without questioning them.

And let's not forget, too, that a horse may genuinely be in pain with an unbalanced novicey rider which it is not in with a stable, pro level person on board. That's not the rider's 'fault', it's just a fact of life.

I don't think all horses are saints, far from it. But I do think there are a lot of horses working in pain with riders, of ALL levels, blissfully unaware of it.


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## smja (1 December 2016)

TBH, it's experience that helps us gauge if it's pain or rider/handler.

It's often a bit of both - my brave eventer suddenly starting stopping occasionally at fences. I thought it was me being scared and rubbish...and it kind of was, in that when I got it right he tried his best to jump. When I didn't get it right, the SI pain meant he couldn't compensate for me messing it up.
I'm still kicking myself for not getting him checked out sooner.


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## milliepops (1 December 2016)

smja said:



			TBH, it's experience that helps us gauge if it's pain or rider/handler.
		
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agreed.  And paying attention to patterns and the horse's history.
We're all talking about our own examples here and that taints the responses but we're all saying the same I think? 
FWIW I've had the experience of being told something was a training issue, when I knew it wasn't, and been glad I trusted my gut on that.  I don't for a second advocate just pushing every horse through a problem unquestioningly.  A close friend had similar with a young horse that failed to progress - had it pts as very low grade wobbler that no one but her had noticed the clinical signs.  A perceptive knowledgeable owner will be the best placed to pick up on physical issues in most cases.

So yes, I'd rather a "numpty" as ycbm puts it, assumes there's a physical problem... but as per cortez's intial response to the post, the best response is to do that but also improve the "numpty's" skills and knowledge at the same time?  Otherwise it's probably going to be hard to effectively rehab a problem etc.  It's not a binary choice between one and the other?


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## milliepops (1 December 2016)

ycbm said:



			And let's not forget, too, that a horse may genuinely be in pain with an unbalanced novicey rider which it is not in with a stable, pro level person on board. That's not the rider's 'fault', it's just a fact of life.

I don't think all horses are saints, far from it. But I do think there are a lot of horses working in pain with riders, of ALL levels, blissfully unaware of it.
		
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Actually  I have to disagree, if a rider is so novice that they cause the horse pain through their lack of balance etc, that *is* their fault.  They shouldn't be mounted on a live animal, at least not in a way that they can have any influence!  

And on your last point, well yes... that weighs heavily on all of us. You only have to think of the number of niggles that people go through their lives with on a day to day basis... I don't think it's too anthropomorphic to think the same probably applies to horses in the general population too. If you consider the ethics of it, actually, I don't think there is any case to be made for using horses in sport at all.  But like most things in life, we draw our own lines in the sand in terms of what we think is acceptable or not.  Ho hum.


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## Alexa123 (1 December 2016)

So, going back to my original post then, are we saying that the horse trainer in the video (Michael Peace) is wrong to make this assumption? 

quote: &#8220;&#8230;.to me training is everything and in my experience a horse&#8217;s behaviour is RARELY caused by physical issues AT ALL&#8221;


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## blitznbobs (1 December 2016)

In my experience most 'inexplicable' (not all) problems are caused by riders including some muscle issues. Horses are not stupid and will train their riders to do things a certain way, it's a very (overly) confident rider who says that the problems they are experiencing with their horses behaviour is nothing to do with their riding.


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## blitznbobs (1 December 2016)

milliepops said:



			Actually  I have to disagree, if a rider is so novice that they cause the horse pain through their lack of balance etc, that *is* their fault.  They shouldn't be mounted on a live animal, at least not in a way that they can have any influence!  

And on your last point, well yes... that weighs heavily on all of us. You only have to think of the number of niggles that people go through their lives with on a day to day basis... I don't think it's too anthropomorphic to think the same probably applies to horses in the general population too. If you consider the ethics of it, actually, I don't think there is any case to be made for using horses in sport at all.  But like most things in life, we draw our own lines in the sand in terms of what we think is acceptable or not.  Ho hum.
		
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But that is kind of like saying people with niggles shouldn't have to go to work...


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## Orangehorse (1 December 2016)

There is a new book out by Sue Palmer (Brown) physiotherapist and Intelligent Horsemanship trainer, dressage rider which is called "Brain, Pain or Training" which covers all these questions!


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## FlashyP (1 December 2016)

Alexa123 said:



			quote: .to me training is everything and in my experience a horses behaviour is RARELY caused by physical issues AT ALL
		
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Yes, I'd agree with this to some extent, I definitely think physical issues are less commonly the cause for so called behavioural issues than they are made out to be (but I 100% think that they should be considered when an issue arises!). It takes a lot of self-awareness and self-criticism for someone to accept that it's their riding or their handling or their training causing the problem. Much easier on the ego to look for an external cause. Riding and training horses is not easy, it takes a massive skill set to ride and train effectively and ethically. I think it is often underestimated just what a task it is we take on when we try to get a half a tonne flight animal with a very different brain to that of a human to do the crazy things we ask it to do 

I also think we often forget that we are training our horse with every single interaction we have with them, not just when we ride, horses are so observant and aware, they have to be, their lives depend on it, but humans really aren't to the same extent  Life is black and white for them, a simple example, you can't let them nuzzle your pockets one day then expect them not to do it the next, but you see this type of thing so often. I think it is quite common to actually inadvertently train those behaviours we don't want with inconsistent handling/riding.


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## Cortez (1 December 2016)

I completely agree that pain CAN be a cause of "naughty" behaviour, but it usually isn't IME. I used to make a living sorting out problem horses, and the strangest thing was that 60% of the time the "problem" never occured, or disappeared almost immediately when they came in for training. What I learned, however, was that the only way to permanently erase the problem was to train the riders, otherwise the horse would be back with the same issue. 

What a professional rider/trainer does (a good one that is) is learn to know the difference between a physical issue and an attitudinal or training one.

I have had the good fortune to work in countries with wonderful trainers and with long traditions of horse training that are very different to the way horses are trained over here. It is strange that some of the problems that come up on here with depressing regularity are almost never seen in other places...


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## ycbm (1 December 2016)

blitznbobs said:



			But that is kind of like saying people with niggles shouldn't have to go to work...
		
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More akin to saying that horses should be made to earn their living?


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## ycbm (1 December 2016)

Alexa123 said:



			So, going back to my original post then, are we saying that the horse trainer in the video (Michael Peace) is wrong to make this assumption? 

quote: &#8220;&#8230;.to me training is everything and in my experience a horse&#8217;s behaviour is RARELY caused by physical issues AT ALL&#8221;
		
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I'd take a bett that most of the horses with ridden problems that are unloaded in Michael's yard with someone paying him to sort them out have already been checked for pain and found clear. He isn't actually in the best place to judge, possibly?


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## squirkle (1 December 2016)

Having taught people to ride for many years I tend to think a good lot of "underlying" physical issues are caused by poor riding. Watching a horse under someone with a correct seat and hands ride VS someone who just doesn't care to ride right (or learn how) the difference is staggering. I couldn't list all the cases of horses I've been given that claimed to have serious health issues and after 6 months ended up back riding regularly. A combination of lazy vets and silly owners. 
One cob in particular I had was diagnosed with kissing spine, his owner gave him to me because the only other option was to shoot him apparently. My own vet came to look at him and baffled announced he couldn't find any kissing spine but the horse had serious bruising around his ribs (behind the girth) particularly on his right side. Anyway it cleared up and he became a school horse as he showed no other problems and actually turned out to be a wonderful confidence giver. When his old owner popped over to visit I offered her a ride and soon realized what the real issue had been when she started kicking the living sugar out of him while yanking him back. Couldn't saddle him for a few days after that as he tried to bite us.
Ireland seems to be rather fond of fast breaking horses which causes a lot of mental reactions rather than physical pain issues. 

Of course some horses are just clever and realise if they are "sore" they get a few days off. A mare I had used to go lame when it rained, until you turned around to go home, at which point she would trot away happily.


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## Micropony (1 December 2016)

ycbm said:



			I'd take a bett that most of the horses with ridden problems that are unloaded in Michael's yard with someone paying him to sort them out have already been checked for pain and found clear. He isn't actually in the best place to judge, possibly?
		
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This exactly.

We can all always be better, more reflective riders and trainers of our horses, and the day we stop questioning 'am I causing/contributing to this problem' AND 'might the horse be uncomfortable' is the day we should hang up our boots.


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## milliepops (1 December 2016)

ycbm said:



			I'd take a bett that most of the horses with ridden problems that are unloaded in Michael's yard with someone paying him to sort them out have already been checked for pain and found clear. He isn't actually in the best place to judge, possibly?
		
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well the key is in the phrase 'in my experience'.
Everyone has their own set of experiences and this will have a big impact on the kinds of things they perceive as problems, and the kind of problems that arrive at their door to be untangled, and therefore the kind of causes/effects they discover.

Simplistic example from my own yard, as I said, common things are common: a novice rider can't get their horse to canter on the left lead, no matter how hard they try, because of deficiencies in their own riding.  Without knowing the details of the rider's capabilities, well meaning people could suggest there is something wrong with the horse & it needs a vet/physio referral etc etc etc. This could send the rider off into an endless quest to find out what the problem is.
An experienced rider would not find this an issue, being more able to balance the horse, apply the correct aid, deal with any basic straightness issues etc .  The experienced rider wouldn't consider this a physical issue for the horse, this is a training issue for the rider.

Thing is on this thread, lots of people have been round the block with horses long enough to have come across the more knotty problems that may well have a physical cause, but those are rarer than the oh-so-common basic problems that frequent livery yards up and down the country and cause more novice riders to tear their hair out.  If you help a lot of more novice riders out, you can see that many behavioural or ridden issues are caused by a lack of experience. If you don't get involved with those kinds of people, one may not realise just how many people struggle with things that a more experienced rider would nip in the bud and consider inconsequential.


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## Slightlyconfused (1 December 2016)

ycbm said:



			How else can a stoic and good natured horse which has kissing spines try to gently tell its owner that it really needs to stop being ridden?

These horses sometimes only play up in competition, too, or in one movement, or particular weather conditions.  It's a case of straws that break the camel's back.

It took me far too long to realise that my kissing spines horse, though working fine at home, threw a strop at the letters in a dressage arena because that's where the transitions happened, and transitions hurt.

I'm firmly on the side of ruling out pain first, then sorting out the behaviour.

I would rather see any number of incompetent riders look for pain in their horses than bear the thought of how many good natured, stoic horses out there are working in pain.
		
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This 100% 

If we have just ridden our exracer through his sudden Un willingness to go forward which is what a lot of people said to do he would have been in so much pain. 
We got the vet out, he saw us ride him and confirmed he was one tenths lame right hind. Lameness work ups showed ks/hock arthritis and si pain. 

It's only because we listens to his change in behaviour that we found that out. 


If one of mine starts misbehaving I take a step back, look at the situation and ask a few questions. 

What did I do?
Did I ask for more than the horse knew how to give?
Did I warm up right? 
Was my aids unclear? 
Does he look/feel okay?

And take it from thwre


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## ycbm (1 December 2016)

Of course some horses are just clever and realise if they are "sore" they get a few days off
		
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I can't imagine wanting to ride a horse who so obviously did not want to be ridden.


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## Pearlsasinger (1 December 2016)

I think that often there are horses that are in pain, for reasons which neither vets nor owners realise. I had one whose 'behavioural issues' turned out to be caused by a severe reaction to sugar and cereals. It took several years and many vet visits treating symptoms, such as cough, without putting everything together to recognise the causal link. Eventually the secret was unlocked because of an article in a horse mag, written by the owner of a horse with similar food reactions but which caused lameness.
Other horses are labelled 'naughty' or 'nappy' because they are not mind readers. Their riders ask for something completely different from what they intended and then blame the horse for responding to the aids given, rather than those that the rider should have used.
Perhaps if riders thought more carefully about the horse's POV, pain, rider error, reactions to environmental/management issues many partnerships would be more harmonious/successful.


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## zaminda (1 December 2016)

I know someone who knew this trainer, and ended up quite badly injured after he insisted the horse she was riding was being naughty because she couldn't ride well enough. She said it had a back problem, and he insisted she ride it through it. After she was injured the horse was checked, and it did have a problem. Having met him I find him arrogant, and didn't warm to him. He is also very expensive.


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## Kezzabell2 (1 December 2016)

Antw23uk said:



			I cant stop looking at that lower leg waving about! What was the question, lol!
		
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hahahah me too


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## honetpot (1 December 2016)

I think the work that horses are asked to do is more concentrated, lots of riding in circles on non natural surfaces. People ride at shows, are on their backs for hours but perhaps have only ridden very little in the week, or its been on a walker, and then they wonder why its starts to say no, and that hoping the animal is physically well.
  There is a theory that all horses are lame, in the fact like people they will always favour one limb, but through exercise and training of horse and rider you develop both sides. The trouble is most riders, even those that have ridden for years have no idea they favour one side, always ride on the same diagonal, and do not work the horses evenly.
  So you start with an animal that is not perfect but functionally sound, work it spasmodically and unevenly and when it can not cope and starts napping its the horses fault. So you stick a gadget on it, which usually compresses its frame and prevents it from using its body to compensate, which with regular drilling in the school makes it mentally sour and exacerbate any physical problems it may have had or is developing. By this time you 'need' a saddle fitter, back man, teeth done and spend x amounts on vets.
   No, its not all the riders fault, but horses are basically built to go in straight lines and graduated turns, and have a basic natural level of fitness, so to make them function well we build on that gradually, like the old hunter fitting work. They will put up with a lot if they are happy, you only have to go to PC to see ponies that will put up with almost any thing and still do their job. As people if we are happy mentally we will ignore pain.
  I have had many animals over many years, most I keep for life and never had one lame apart from the odd kick, most competed did PC hunted etc. Even the horse I got already with diagnosed navicular I managed to keep sound and in work to the point of cub hunting, but as someone else has said this all takes time, which nobody seems to have. Its easier to buy another rug, or gadget and say there is something wrong with the horse.


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## blitznbobs (1 December 2016)

ycbm said:



			More akin to saying that horses should be made to earn their living?
		
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I don't have issue with that idea either... My horses work 5 - 7 hours tops a week, they have fields to be horses in, stables for when it's necessary for them to come in in the winter, food, affection,vets, physios , I don't work them if they are lame or ill etc in return they do a small job... What's wrong with that?


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## tallyho! (1 December 2016)

Alexa123 said:



			I have been a  horse owner and H&H reader for some time and like most, it has not always been plain sailing.  I'd be very interested to see what others think of this horse trainer's opinion (see link below) regarding the perennial behaviour/pain debate. My understanding was that the majority of behaviour-related problems with our horses were pain related, but now I'm wondering if my whole approach has been wrong all along? Take a look:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUlMWGLsbCw

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Is it really this black and white?

There's nothing wrong with either way of looking at a problem. Better to be able to see it from many angles rather than just one. Surely it's more of a spectrum.


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## ycbm (2 December 2016)

blitznbobs said:



			I don't have issue with that idea either... My horses work 5 - 7 hours tops a week, they have fields to be horses in, stables for when it's necessary for them to come in in the winter, food, affection,vets, physios , I don't work them if they are lame or ill etc in return they do a small job... What's wrong with that?
		
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The suggestion was that people go to work to earn a living even if they are in pain. I don't feel that a horse should earn a living even if it's in pain.


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## Cortez (2 December 2016)

ycbm said:



			The suggestion was that people go to work to earn a living even if they are in pain. I don't feel that a horse should earn a living even if it's in pain.
		
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My horses earn a living (mine, and theirs), if they cannot do so I either sell or PTS. If they are in pain they cannot work (neither can I, so I have to be sound enough too) so their management is directed towards them being fit, sound and willing participants.  I manage my horses VERY differently to most people on here - strangely enough we've hardly seen a vet in the last 15 years, nor saddle fitter, physio, etc., etc. And yet they come out and do their job without complaint consistantly. Why? According to most replies I read on here they should be crippled, miserable, starving, vitamin-depleted lunatics. 

Yes, I think the horse "culture" of this part of the world has a lot of things very wrong and is not focussing on the most important, basic skills that seem to have been forgotten.


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## milliepops (2 December 2016)

ycbm said:



			The suggestion was that people go to work to earn a living even if they are in pain. I don't feel that a horse should earn a living even if it's in pain.
		
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no, actually, the suggestion was that lots of people live with daily gripes, not clinically distinct enough to be worthy of bothering a doctor or doing anything other than getting on with it.  We all get aches and pains. Therefore it's likely that the same is true of horses. Daily aches and pains. We're all living bodies, after all.  Yet we ALL ride them. All of us on this thread.  Yes, we should do our best to make sure that any pain issues we can detect are dealt with, but I think anyone who sits on a horse even with the best of intentions has to come to terms with the fact that sometimes the horse won't be feeling 100%, just as you aren't.... even if it's completely unnoticeable.  And therefore the extreme end of the argument that we appear to be on, is that it's not justifiable to ride a horse.  Uncomfortable concept?

incidentally, my horses don't have to earn a living, but I do keep them to ride them, so I do so within what I consider to be acceptable conditions... they are fit and enthusiastic, supple, willing and responsive, and I think that's the best measure I have to decide whether what I do with them is 'fair', recognising that actually the horse has the bum deal in all this and would be more content minding its own business in the wild.


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## ycbm (2 December 2016)

no, actually, the suggestion was that lots of people live with daily gripes, not clinically distinct enough to be worthy of bothering a doctor or doing anything other than getting on with it. We all get aches and pains. Therefore it's likely that the same is true of horses. Daily aches and pains. We're all living bodies, after all. Yet we ALL ride them. All of us on this thread. Yes, we should do our best to make sure that any pain issues we can detect are dealt with, but I think anyone who sits on a horse even with the best of intentions has to come to terms with the fact that sometimes the horse won't be feeling 100%, just as you aren't.... even if it's completely unnoticeable. And therefore the extreme end of the argument that we appear to be on, is that it's not justifiable to ride a horse. Uncomfortable concept?
		
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Well yes you certainly have taken that argument to extremes 

I honestly can't see what people are arguing about on this thread. Surely we all agree that a horse in pain should not be required to work except for therapeutic reasons? And that some behavioral issues are due to pain? And that even horse vet experts sometimes diagnose behaviour when is actually pain, so none of us are perfect at seeing when a horse is in pain? And that pain should be ruled out if obvious changes to management/riding has not swiftly resolved the issues?

Can anyone explain to me exactly what the actual argument is here  ?



PS I an tickled pink at people talking to me as if I'm a fluffy bunny owner


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## milliepops (2 December 2016)

ycbm said:



			I honestly can't see what prior are arguing about on gyros thread. Surely we all agree that a horse in pain should not be required to work except for therapeutic reasons? And that some behavioral issues are die to pain? And that even horse vet experts sometimes diagnose behaviour when is actually pain, so none of us are perfect at seeing when a horse is in pain? And that pain should be ruled out if obvious changes to management/riding has not swiftly resolved the issues?

Can anyone explain to me exactly what the actual argument is here  ?
		
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lol can just about untangle that...  have said multiple times in my own responses that we are all on the same page, we are just saying the same stuff in a different way.
I say 'lots of behavioural issues are training problems but one should eliminate pain as a cause as well'

you say ' pain can be a cause of behavioural problems and you should eliminate pain and then address behaviour'.

I think we're all in agreement :wink3:


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## Alexa123 (2 December 2016)

My focus was on the word 'RARELY' in this horse trainer's video, that was all. (&#8220;&#8230;.to me training is everything and in my experience a horse&#8217;s behaviour is RARELY caused by physical issues AT ALL&#8221.

The post certainly wasn't to provoke any kind of argument, and IMO it has elicited some very interesting and useful insights from people on here  who clearly have lots of experience. I have found it very useful.


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## milliepops (2 December 2016)

Alexa123 said:



			My focus was on the word 'RARELY' in this horse trainer's video, that was all. (&#8220;&#8230;.to me training is everything and in my experience a horse&#8217;s behaviour is RARELY caused by physical issues AT ALL&#8221.

The post certainly wasn't to provoke any kind of argument, and IMO it has elicited some very interesting and useful insights from people on here  who clearly have lots of experience. I have found it very useful.
		
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it's all good  nice to have meaty topics to chew over (other than the blinking fivers in the clubhouse!  :biggrin3


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## Cortez (2 December 2016)

milliepops said:



			it's all good  nice to have meaty topics to chew over (other than the blinking fivers in the clubhouse!  :biggrin3

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Yes! Been very boring on here of late.........


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## ycbm (2 December 2016)

Alexa123 said:



			My focus was on the word 'RARELY' in this horse trainer's video, that was all. (&#8220;&#8230;.to me training is everything and in my experience a horse&#8217;s behaviour is RARELY caused by physical issues AT ALL&#8221.

The post certainly wasn't to provoke any kind of argument, and IMO it has elicited some very interesting and useful insights from people on here  who clearly have lots of experience. I have found it very useful.
		
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It's a good thread!

Now I have to admit to not even watching the video - but if it's Michael Peace, and if he said 'rarely', then I'd go back to my argument that he's a very expensive trainer and few people will ever consult him without ruling out pain first.

I also remember a long, long time ago before he was famous and just after he fell out with Monte Roberts, seeing an article where he was photographed doing front leg stretches on a horse and explaining that he always ruled out pain before working with a problem horse.


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## milliepops (2 December 2016)

ycbm said:



*Now I have to admit to not even watching the video *- but if it's Michael Peace, and if he said 'rarely', then I'd go back to my argument that he's a very expensive trainer and few people will ever consult him without ruling out pain first.
		
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:rolleyes3::rolleyes3::rolleyes3::rolleyes3::rolleyes3:
it was only 57 seconds long :biggrin3:

If you had watched it, you'd have heard him say that he's a last resort when owners have already spent time with the vet etc, and he shows brief clips of him schooling napping/rearing horses. Showing them how to think forward.  A training issue!!!
Context is everything in this kind of argument... perhaps this explains why we've all been talking round in circles, lol, endlessly saying 'yes look at pain but lots of it is training!'  Pain was dealt with in the first few sentences of the video.


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## ycbm (2 December 2016)

I was replying to the question the OP posed 

Not all of us are lucky enough to have a broadband line that will run video whenever they want it to


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## milliepops (2 December 2016)

tell me about it, I have been without a phone line into my house all year, but then I personally wouldn't choose to wade in on debates when I couldn't view the original discussion material. I can get 3g if I get in the car and drive up the hill :lol:  Never mind, all makes sense now!


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## ycbm (2 December 2016)

eggs said:



			Pain should never be ruled out as a reason but I tend to agree with Michael Peace and Cortez that it is rarely the real underlying issue.  Poor riding and handling of the horse is usually the root cause.
		
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This was the first  post I was motivated into posting by  milliepops. It didn't need me to have watched the video. My posts were directly related to where the thread then went.

I fundamentally disagree with the 'rarely' and would put a 'more' in front of the usually.


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## milliepops (2 December 2016)

ycbm said:



			This was the first  post I was motivated into posting by  milliepops. It didn't need me to have watched the video. My posts were directly related to where the thread then went.

I fundamentally disagree with the 'rarely' and would put a 'more' in front of the usually.
		
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OK... but your first post on this thread quoted a post of mine, so forgive me if it appeared that you had taken in more of the subject than just eggs's post.


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## ycbm (2 December 2016)

milliepops said:



			OK... but your first post on this thread quoted a post of mine, so forgive me if it appeared that you had taken in more of the subject than just eggs's post.
		
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I did indeed quote you. I thought your trainer was completely wrong in suggesting that a horse which only naps at a gateway can't be napping at that gateway through pain, and I said so.

That didn't need me to have seen the video either 

Any more technicalities you want to argue over, it's cold and damp and I'm not motivated to fetch a horse and ride ?


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## soloequestrian (2 December 2016)

Cortez said:



			I have had the good fortune to work in countries with wonderful trainers and with long traditions of horse training that are very different to the way horses are trained over here. It is strange that some of the problems that come up on here with depressing regularity are almost never seen in other places...
		
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I realise that this could probably fill a book...but could you give any examples?  Very interesting point!


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## JanetGeorge (2 December 2016)

Alexa123 said:



			So, going back to my original post then, are we saying that the horse trainer in the video (Michael Peace) is wrong to make this assumption? 

quote: .to me training is everything and in my experience a horses behaviour is RARELY caused by physical issues AT ALL
		
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Gee - and I've had my excellent physio look at 7 horses today - what a waste of money.  But - oh gee - 2 have been treated (one with surgery and one with steroid) for kissing spines, one had a bad fall during backing ad was a total prat for a while - far better with time, patience and physio but still struggles to flex in the middle,  one was a full sibling to the two with KS, so suspected that when he was a prat before we'd got him happy with the roller - handler confidence - or giving him the benefit of the doubt - were probably to blame.  And one is a big girl who has spent the first 18months ridden struggling to put one foot in front of the other, hard to canter on the correct lead etc etc etc.  She's improved with physio and daily flexion exercises but still a little way to go.  Onl one was decided as needing a good kick up the ribs (just come in for backing and the owner wanted to be sure all was right.)  All IS right - apart from manners - and that will be fixed.

No-one in their right mind would send a horse to Peace or similar without first checking out the obvious!  He's too ruddy expensive for that!


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## Alexa123 (2 December 2016)

So we're making the assumption that all vets can be relied upon. Now, don't get me started on THAT one!


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## milliepops (2 December 2016)

ycbm said:



			I did indeed quote you. I thought your trainer was completely wrong in suggesting that a horse which only naps at a gateway can't be napping at that gateway through pain, and I said so.

That didn't need me to have seen the video either 

Any more technicalities you want to argue over, it's cold and damp and I'm not motivated to fetch a horse and ride ?
		
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I don't think it's a technicality, tbh, I was pleased when you said you hadn't watched it because it explained why you had kind of missed the point of what MP was saying (and by extension the OP), and therefore why your posts towards me and others read as though you are accusing people of riding their horses through problems, when they must by all accounts have some debilitating physical condition.

My trainer wasn't talking about a theoretical horse that might well have kissing spines all around the arena, in the example he was talking about MY horse.  I think my vets would think I was off my rocker if I told them to x ray her spine because she napped a couple of times in a 45 min session.  

MP clearly stated in the short video that horses came to him AFTER the owners had done various physical examinations.  The horses still displayed behavioural problems, and at that point it was all about training. 

If you don't agree, then at what point do you give up trying to find a physical cause for a behavioural problem?  Should I spend £500 on x rays, £2000 on a new saddle, £200 on physio, I dunno, let's say £50 for an animal communicator while I'm at it... before looking at myself and saying, do you know what? I just need to teach the horse something.


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## ycbm (2 December 2016)

I give up MP 

The only argument I had on this whole thread is the claim that pain RARELY causes behavioural issues. My experience is that it is far from rare.

I thought I had made that clear. But if what I've written want clear enough for you, I'm stumped and can't see the point of continuing this discussion!

Watch the Macc match on the telly tonight, I'm just off to see it for real


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## tallyho! (2 December 2016)

Alexa123 said:



			So, going back to my original post then, are we saying that the horse trainer in the video (Michael Peace) is wrong to make this assumption? 

quote: .to me training is everything and in my experience a horses behaviour is RARELY caused by physical issues AT ALL
		
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I can see two particular issues...

If a behaviour is rarely caused by physical issues, then riding must be. If that is so, what about our riding is causing so many physical issues?


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## oldie48 (2 December 2016)

Such an interesting thread and I am learning so much from you folks. I just wanted to throw something else into the mix to get some feedback In the past I've worked with people who have had very profound behavioural issues that have made them difficult to work with and often a danger to themselves and to other people, their issues haven't stemmed from physical pain (although they may have felt their pain in a physical way) but in lots of cases it has come from an unstable and unsupportive environment, a lack of clear boundaries and sadly parents who were unable to give clear guidance. Now, I am in no way suggesting that children are the same as young horses but I do see some comparisons. If I had a child throwing it's toys out of the pram, I'm not sure my first reaction would be to ask where it hurts! Do I think a lot of behavioural problems stem for the rider? Yes because I know I've been guilty of it and I have to admit that to become a better rider. Do they sometimes stem from pain, yes of course they do but I think they are less frequent than we'd like to think.


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## scats (2 December 2016)

I haven't read all the replies yet, but I witness first hand, on a daily basis, people who lack the skills to ride and train a horse (or even understand its behaviour), blaming schooling issues on physical problems.

Friend has a very cheeky cob (aren't they all!) and she is quite a novicey rider from a training point of view.  She can get on a horse and ride it, but had no experience of bringing horses on or schooling them from scratch.  She bought a just backed 4 year old.

Several things over the last year or so she has blamed on a potential physical problem.  Even though horse would be good 90% of the time and then decide to nap and leave the arena when he felt like, or tank off and refuse to stop, she couldn't see that the problem was down to her riding- perhaps too weak with her leg aid, leaving the shoulder open etc.  If I suggested things to try, she would shoot me down and make excuses that something was wrong with him.

She got horse physically checked out- vet, physio, farrier, saddler... and as predicted, he had no health issues at all, he was just taking advantage of weaknesses in her handling and riding.

Having had horses for 30 years, and seeing an awful lot in my time, I'm pretty good at spotting when a problem is a physical one and when it's a training issue (I tend to use the term training issue over behavioural issue, as I believe the issues occur through inconsistent or weak training, not that the horse has decided to randomly be an a***e!)


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## Alexa123 (2 December 2016)

It has indeed turned into an interesting, multi-layered thread, which is why I keep coming back to it. Like others I have had (and still have) difficulties in my life and horses have been both a therapy and a trial. A horse will know your mental state as soon as you enter its space. Some will tolerate your 'bad days' and/or your ineptitude in the saddle with  innate good will, while others will have none of it. But it would be a sad day if horses became  the preserve of 'the chosen few' - those of a saintly, well-balanced disposition who have also had the benefit of that rare thing - a solid equestrian heritage, knowledge, experience and expertise.


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## milliepops (2 December 2016)

Alexa123 said:



			But it would be a sad day if horses became  the preserve of 'the chosen few' - those of a saintly, well-balanced disposition who have also had the benefit of that rare thing - a solid equestrian heritage, knowledge, experience and expertise.
		
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I don't think that's necessary. .. I know I have no horsey heritage but I think I do an OK job by my steeds.  If you keep an open mind and heart, you can learn so much, so so much including how to have that well balanced disposition, I think :lol:

That's the essential think for me, an ongoing willingness to learn   more likely that horses will return to the realm of the wealthy I think. And money doesn't necessarily equal knowledge etc


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## gunnergundog (2 December 2016)

tallyho! said:



			I can see two particular issues...

If a behaviour is rarely caused by physical issues, then riding must be. If that is so, what about our riding is causing so many physical issues?
		
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Personally, I think that pain/physical issues can be a key driver in the behaviours exhibited.  

However, for me, the key question is, how much of that pain is caused by inappropriate riding that leads over time to the excessive stresses and compensations on key body parts which then crumble and lead to the sub-clinical pain/lamenesses that manifests itself in inappropriate behaviour?

I know that I am able to get on a horse that is deemed to be lame by a vet (as much as 2/5ths) and still win a prelim dressage class with a 70%+ score judged by a listed individual (and higher than list 6). Am not proud of that, but just stating as an example. 

So much comes down to FEEL and EXPERIENCE and just to add that said horse is now undergoing a rehab program.


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## teapot (2 December 2016)

Super interesting thread. 

Does anyone remember the US Olympic horse that napped around the Rio xc course? Turned out it WAS in pain. Even the team coach said the horse was fine... http://eventingnation.com/loughan-glen-recovering-after-rio-olympic-games/ 

On a personal level, the horse I rode last winter and gave up before I thought he'd kill me, I was convinced he was in pain due to his management (not my choice). The more he was ridden straight out of a 12 by 12 box (he's a big lad) the worse he felt under saddle. I to this day am convinced he is tight/sore somewhere, and the less turnout he was getting, the more aggravated it was. His movement in the field the day I managed to get him some turnout after three months said it all...


My instructor and I were talking about lameness during my lesson (multi-tasking obvs) and were wondering whether being able to see lameness is a good thing or not? You can start writing horses off completely before going 'hang on they're doing a prelim once every six months' with not one real indication of pain... Is any horse truly 100% sound?


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## Cortez (2 December 2016)

tallyho! said:



			I can see two particular issues...

If a behaviour is rarely caused by physical issues, then riding must be. If that is so, what about our riding is causing so many physical issues?
		
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Oh gosh, where to start? And how to say without seeming (or indeed being) very rude.............


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## MuddyMonster (2 December 2016)

Cortez said:



			Oh gosh, where to start? And how to say without seeming (or indeed being) very rude.............
		
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I would imagine one of the biggest reasons is surely that horses are not actually designed (or poorly designed) to be ridden? That's not to say they can't be, but I think even in the healthiest of horses, there is an awful lot of supporting care needed to prevent or minimise the damage that could be done to a horse through ridden work. 

Add in to that melting pot hereditary or genetic weaknesses, various training methods or levels of training, varying levels of supporting care on top of everything else & you can see why so many problems can potentially occur ...


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## teapot (2 December 2016)

MuddyMonster said:



			I would imagine one of the biggest reasons is surely that horses are not actually designed (or poorly designed) to be ridden? That's not to say they can't be, but I think even in the healthiest of horses, there is an awful lot of supporting care needed to prevent or minimise the damage that could be done to a horse through ridden work. 

Add in to that melting pot hereditary or genetic weaknesses, various training methods or levels of training, varying levels of supporting care on top of everything else & you can see why so many problems can potentially occur ...
		
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Not to mention some not understanding the damage that a heavy weighted, heavy sitting rider can do...


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## MuddyMonster (2 December 2016)

teapot said:



			Super interesting thread. 

Does anyone remember the US Olympic horse that napped around the Rio xc course? Turned out it WAS in pain. Even the team coach said the horse was fine... http://eventingnation.com/loughan-glen-recovering-after-rio-olympic-games/ 

On a personal level, the horse I rode last winter and gave up before I thought he'd kill me, I was convinced he was in pain due to his management (not my choice). The more he was ridden straight out of a 12 by 12 box (he's a big lad) the worse he felt under saddle. I to this day am convinced he is tight/sore somewhere, and the less turnout he was getting, the more aggravated it was. His movement in the field the day I managed to get him some turnout after three months said it all...


My instructor and I were talking about lameness during my lesson (multi-tasking obvs) and were wondering whether being able to see lameness is a good thing or not? You can start writing horses off completely before going 'hang on they're doing a prelim once every six months' with not one real indication of pain... Is any horse truly 100% sound?
		
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I think being able to spot lameness can only be a good thing. My vet subscribes to the school of thought that there is no such thing as 'just stiffnes', as stiffness is essentially lameness. So I think like people, very few horses are 100% sound. Through doing Pilates & physiotherapy I know I'm not 100% level - but I can still go to the gym, ride horses & go to work. I just need to focus on building up certain areas through exercises to help counteract where I'm less strong.  

But with being able to spot and understand lameness, I think you need to be able to be be pragmatic enough to realise the horse can potentially still work but understanding to what extent & how management can help. Like you say, if the horse is just ticking over at a lower level, there's no reason to necessarily pension him or her off to retirement livery if they are coping fine. 

Likewise, a horse that may not be able to stand up to 1.50m SJ at a competitive level with a pro could cope fine at 1m with an amateur that goes out every month.


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## Leo Walker (3 December 2016)

I watched the video and its a bit misleading. Anything he gets in is looked over with a fine tooth comb. However I do agree with him partly, some horses are just difficult due to the way they have been started or things they have learnt etc. But I'm also coming at this from the point of view of a fat, disabled middle aged woman who can no longer ride for toffee! If you look back through my posts there have been a fair few wondering if there was something wrong with my horse or if he just needs a better rider to give him a smacked bottom. Every time there has been a physical issue, which we have resolved.

Before I became a fat disabled middle aged woman I used to take on horses no one else wanted and turned them round. Admittedly usually cobby jobbies. They all got turned around and went on to be productive members of society, but on reflection almsot all of them would have benefited from physio at the very least. It just wasnt something I used to do. Teeth and sometimes a saddle check, but otherwise they got a smacked bottom and told to get on with it and they did.

The last one I did was a bit of a reprobate and I turned him round and he was hacking out with novices and schooling nicely until the day he bolted with me out of the blue and fractured my spine catastrophically. It turns out he had spinal issues and had been coping with them as he had to until it all got too much and here we are! So that might be colouring my view slightly! But I think an awful lot of horses have issues, some of which can be overcome by being worked properly. I know my back pain which is totally disabling, is massively better if I am fit, so it stands to reason that some horses can be turned around by being ridden through it and developing the muscular structure needed to hold them together. I am however grateful that I cant ride well enough to do that for a horse as I know how thoroughly unpleasant it is!

The pros I know, and I do still know a fair few, turn horses around by good but hard riding


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## tallyho! (3 December 2016)

Cortez said:



			Oh gosh, where to start? And how to say without seeming (or indeed being) very rude.............
		
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MuddyMonster said:



			I would imagine one of the biggest reasons is surely that horses are not actually designed (or poorly designed) to be ridden? That's not to say they can't be, but I think even in the healthiest of horses, there is an awful lot of supporting care needed to prevent or minimise the damage that could be done to a horse through ridden work. 

Add in to that melting pot hereditary or genetic weaknesses, various training methods or levels of training, varying levels of supporting care on top of everything else & you can see why so many problems can potentially occur ...
		
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I think that *some* horses are designed well for being ridden. Couple that with riding that teaches the horse the *how* of carrying a being atop, it can actually protect the horse. 

Personally, I think you have touched on one of the main issues. Many competition horses nowadays are made to pull as someone said previously. Then, in trying to achieve the frame of a horse that is meant to be ridden, these horses get pulled and constricted in all manner of ways in which their anatomy cannot cope with. 

Why not choose a horse that naturally has the ability and anatomy TO carry and easy to train? Why force something on a type of horse that just *can't* do what those other horses can.

That is just one point, there are many as Cortez points out... style of riding being one that I'd also like to touch on as I have seen it. Maybe later though... chores to do...


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## milliepops (3 December 2016)

tallyho! said:



			That is just one point, there are many as Cortez points out... style of riding being one that I'd also like to touch on as I have seen it. Maybe later though... chores to do...
		
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haha, I was thinking about this while doing my chores :lol:
I have recently been helping with a horse that has been ridden  in such a way to make it stiff. Not lame, yet, but absolutely stiff and incredibly one sided to the point where it is now unable to do basic school work with any correctness.   It was the kind of horse that wouldn't have a great deal of natural suppleness, but the issues it is displaying now have been created by what I would describe as incorrect training 

I think we've found a way to put it on the right track now... it would definitely be worth the owner booking some physio for it too, but tbh at the moment I think it would have limited benefit in the long term until it's ridden in a more constructive way to back up any bodywork needed...  he effectively needs his rider to give him physio type work, every time he is ridden.


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## tallyho! (3 December 2016)

milliepops said:



			haha, I was thinking about this while doing my chores :lol:
I have recently been helping with a horse that has been ridden  in such a way to make it stiff. Not lame, yet, but absolutely stiff and incredibly one sided to the point where it is now unable to do basic school work with any correctness.   It was the kind of horse that wouldn't have a great deal of natural suppleness, but the issues it is displaying now have been created by what I would describe as incorrect training 

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It must be endemic this kind of riding then - once I believe I too rode this way. I was taught to ride that way - I certainly contributed to a horse's lameness. I feel blessed that somehow I managed to find the kind of teacher that thinks beyond a frame to ride into and more about the preservation of a horse during ridden work and how riding can actually make a horse more supple, more light and more straight. In turn, this made my horse more athletic and supple. Look! No physio needed! The horse was actually gymnastically fit, able to power himself out of his thoracic sling and up between the shoulders without any special manipulation or magic injections. We need more teachers that can guide riders how to teach the horse to carry riders.

Also, another musing, what is schooling for nowadays anyway? Well mannered horses? Well schooled? We don't need a light nimble destrier anymore to help us out on the battlefields. I don't perform a turn on the haunches thinking "I'll need this move to avoid a potential sword attack", no I think "is that the right degree of bend, will the judge mark me down for that?"... riding is for ridings sake. The importance of lightness and suppleness means nothing and you are not rewarded for it in the ring. So, in theory at least, as long as bad riding gets the points, horses will continue to be stiff and needing money thrown at them to stay sound.

There must be more teachers like mine around... where are they all?


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## milliepops (3 December 2016)

tallyho! said:



			It must be endemic this kind of riding then - once I believe I too rode this way. I was taught to ride that way - I certainly contributed to a horse's lameness. I feel blessed that somehow I managed to find the kind of teacher that thinks beyond a frame to ride into and more about the preservation of a horse during ridden work and how riding can actually make a horse more supple, more light and more straight. In turn, this made my horse more athletic and supple. Look! No physio needed! The horse was actually gymnastically fit, able to power himself out of his thoracic sling and up between the shoulders without any special manipulation or magic injections. We need more teachers that can guide riders how to teach the horse to carry riders.

Also, another musing, what is schooling for nowadays anyway? Well mannered horses? Well schooled? We don't need a light nimble destrier anymore to help us out on the battlefields. I don't perform a turn on the haunches thinking "I'll need this move to avoid a potential sword attack", no I think "is that the right degree of bend, will the judge mark me down for that?"... riding is for ridings sake. The importance of lightness and suppleness means nothing and you are not rewarded for it in the ring. So, in theory at least, as long as bad riding gets the points, horses will continue to be stiff and needing money thrown at them to stay sound.

There must be more teachers like mine around... where are they all?
		
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So much to say , it's a subject very close to my heart but I've got horses to put to bed 

Just one thing that sprang to mind first though, trainers are one thing but it takes a certain kind of person to learn this way, to develop feel and sensitivity rather than just tell the horse what to do. To spend as much time feeling what the effect of their efforts are on the horse, as you spend giving it instructions.  

Plus you don't know what you're missing as a rider if all you ever ride is stiff donkeys. I love riding other people's horses because it reaffirms how much I enjoy mine, because of the constant gymnastic and suppling work they do, which makes them easy and fun to ride and I hope will prolong their ridden life . I feel sad for the riders of the stiff horses though, at some point I hope they will experience what it is to ride a well schooled horse in the true sense. I find it really rewarding to help people along that path if they ask. .. we all have so much to learn but every little helps


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## teapot (3 December 2016)

milliepops said:
			
		


			Plus you don't know what you're missing as a rider if all you ever ride is stiff donkeys. I love riding other people's horses because it reaffirms how much I enjoy mine, because of the constant gymnastic and suppling work they do, which makes them easy and fun to ride and I hope will prolong their ridden life . I feel sad for the riders of the stiff horses though, at some point I hope they will experience what it is to ride a well schooled horse in the true sense. I find it really rewarding to help people along that path if they ask. .. we all have so much to learn but every little helps 

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tallyho! said:



			The importance of lightness and suppleness means nothing and you are not rewarded for it in the ring. So, in theory at least, as long as bad riding gets the points, horses will continue to be stiff and needing money thrown at them to stay sound.

There must be more teachers like mine around... where are they all?
		
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They're around, hidden but around. My lesson on Weds (at a riding school no less) was all about straightness, suppleness, and lightness. Wasn't on your 'average' rs horse either so when I eventually got it right it felt wonderful :smile3: 

ETS: it was helping him too having been ridden in a fairly noticeably fixed way in a previous home.


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## Cortez (3 December 2016)

Ah, now this discussion is going on the right track.....and you are all much better at saying these things diplomatically than I


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## Wagtail (3 December 2016)

What an interesting thread! I will read it all after making my reply.

But of course MP will have the impression that it's mostly behavioural/rider/handling. He ends up mainly with horses that have been fully checked out. Many have had thousands of pounds spent on them ruling out physical issues. So his experience is going to be skewed.

In my experience, I would say that nine times out of ten nappy, rearing behaviour has a pain cause. Bucking is mostly high spirits but can also be a pain cause.


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## tallyho! (3 December 2016)

milliepops said:



			So much to say , it's a subject very close to my heart but I've got horses to put to bed 

Just one thing that sprang to mind first though, trainers are one thing but it takes a certain kind of person to learn this way, to develop feel and sensitivity rather than just tell the horse what to do. To spend as much time feeling what the effect of their efforts are on the horse, as you spend giving it instructions.  

Plus you don't know what you're missing as a rider if all you ever ride is stiff donkeys. I love riding other people's horses because it reaffirms how much I enjoy mine, because of the constant gymnastic and suppling work they do, which makes them easy and fun to ride and I hope will prolong their ridden life . I feel sad for the riders of the stiff horses though, at some point I hope they will experience what it is to ride a well schooled horse in the true sense. I find it really rewarding to help people along that path if they ask. .. we all have so much to learn but every little helps 

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Thats what I mean, there is such a lot to learn and I've only just scratched the surface. Some friends of mine are very competitive and it's all about getting to qualifiers for this age group, that age group, level etc... I find it so so tiring now. Don't get me wrong, I still want to compete the newbie but not at the expense of correct training... not rushing them through just doing the bare bones of dressage. Where is the soul in that? Where is the spirit?


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## Wagtail (3 December 2016)

ycbm said:



			I can't imagine wanting to ride a horse who so obviously did not want to be ridden.
		
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Exactly. I have watched a horse for almost ten years and which has had tens of thousands of pounds spent on it but nothing concrete found for its nappy behaviour. It has mild kissing spines that is improved by regular chiro, hock arthritis that is improved by regular steroid injections and is on omeprazole permanently for recurrent ulcers. The horse obviously hates being ridden and will nap at the beginning of every session going into trot. Then after 15 minutes of shouting at and the odd flick with the whip and perseverance from its rider will eventually work nicely. But I always think 'why?'. I personally refuse to ride the horse. It doesn't want to work, and it makes for a horrible ride. The owner is convinced the horse is just trying it on. I think the horse does not want to be ridden for whatever reason (probably discomfort of some sort from one or more of its niggling ailments), but even if the cause is mental, I just don't want to ride it, period.


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## Cortez (3 December 2016)

Wagtail said:



			What an interesting thread! I will read it all after making my reply.

But of course MP will have the impression that it's mostly behavioural/rider/handling. He ends up mainly with horses that have been fully checked out. Many have had thousands of pounds spent on them ruling out physical issues. So his experience is going to be skewed.

In my experience, I would say that nine times out of ten nappy, rearing behaviour has a pain cause. Bucking is mostly high spirits but can also be a pain cause.
		
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NOT my experience. Napping and rearing is the ultimate "No, and you can't make me!" response, and it is so, so common in this end of the world. Vanishingly rare to non-existant in most of the countries I have worked in. Why's that?


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## Regandal (3 December 2016)

I think a lot depends on the individual. Not everyone wants to improve their riding.  For those who do,  the first time they experience the horse responding acts as a catalyst which leads them to seek more.  You become hooked!


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## Cortez (3 December 2016)

Regandal said:



			I think a lot depends on the individual. Not everyone wants to improve their riding.  For those who do,  the first time they experience the horse responding acts as a catalyst which leads them to seek more.  You become hooked!
		
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But most people here have never, ever ridden a properly trained horse! If once you have felt what a really balanced, collected, supple, powerful, responsive horse feels like you would NEVER go back to the poor confused, staggering beasts that most people "enjoy". There is so much to riding, I apreciate that not everyone wants to go to the effort of learning to ride an educated horse, but for me the only responsible way to keep and ride a horse is to learn how to do it properly.


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## Wagtail (3 December 2016)

Cortez said:



			NOT my experience. Napping and rearing is the ultimate "No, and you can't make me!" response, and it is so, so common in this end of the world. Vanishingly rare to non-existant in most of the countries I have worked in. Why's that?
		
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I have been lucky enough not to work with many serious rearers. The three that have been proper rearers (as in vertical/flipping over) have had serious physical issues. Two were PSD (both cured after the op and never reared to my knowledge again) and a KS horse (the one I describe above that has several physical issues). I have had a couple with a good buck in them, but largely not had much problem with any horse I have cared for and ridden. I had one horse that was my own that had an explosive reaction to being girthed. He had very serious KS which was never resolved.

But out of more than a hundred horses I have trained or worked with in my lifetime, this handful were the only ones I had any trouble with. None of the others were nappy or any trouble at all other than the usual greenness, spookiness or lack of confidence, all easily resolvable. I think you can tell when something is physical. You can 'feel' it.


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## milliepops (3 December 2016)

Cortez said:



			But most people here have never, ever ridden a properly trained horse! If once you have felt what a really balanced, collected, supple, powerful, responsive horse feels like you would NEVER go back to the poor confused, staggering beasts that most people "enjoy".
		
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This, 100% this.
Lots of people think their horses are trained because they will go on the bit and they can steer round a prelim.  If only they knew. I agree with an earlier poster, once you feel the difference it's addictive. And I also find it deeply fulfilling


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## milliepops (3 December 2016)

tallyho! said:



			Thats what I mean, there is such a lot to learn and I've only just scratched the surface. Some friends of mine are very competitive and it's all about getting to qualifiers for this age group, that age group, level etc... I find it so so tiring now. Don't get me wrong, I still want to compete the newbie but not at the expense of correct training... not rushing them through just doing the bare bones of dressage. Where is the soul in that? Where is the spirit?
		
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I suspect it's something they will either figure out, and come back to, bashfully.... or they will continue in blissful ignorance.
I was lucky that the first horse I attempted to 'do dressage' on is a very forgiving and generous mare who tolerated me flailing around in the dark until I hit on what I thought must be the Right Thing.  After a while I figured out where I'd been going wrong, went back to basics and started again with more knowledge.  We'd done OK, papering over the cracks, doing the bare bones... but what a different experience when you do it with understanding and feeling 

Competition and 'soul' are not mutually exclusive...  the one I'm competing now is doing more in the way of qualifying etc than anything I've ridden before but I can also honestly say it's the most correctly produced horse I've done   Also the most unlikely dressage prospect, but without her correctness she'd be HOPELESS in the ring.  I hope and pray she stays sound long term because I think I've laid good enough foundations for her to go up the levels, despite her apparent lack of sportiness! 

I do think that demonstration of correct training is rewarded, it's a shame at the lower levels that amazingly bred animals can out-bling a correctly trained ordinary horse but such is life, and the higher you go, the less attention is given to naturally astounding paces, and training becomes more influential.  Would help to have both, one can dream.  I do honestly think the top of the sport is changing in a good way.  Harmony appears to be winning out.  The dutch have fallen off the pedestal, and the old german style of pushing and holding is becoming less noticable.  And even at novice, my cob had some pleasing comments in tests about correct training etc.


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## milliepops (3 December 2016)

Sorry. was thinking about trainers.   I have to be honest, I think people are failed in this regard by what I would describe as BHS-y instructors.  Great for beginners, great for nervous people, great for getting people going, but what I see is that the ones who have come up through those qualifications but gone no further can lack the depth to go beyond a transactional way of teaching.  kick, pull, turn left, turn right etc.    Don't think I'm making a blanket statement, my own trainer is FBHS but it doesn't stop there  

TBH I learnt to look beyond the very basics to assess a horse's way of going from a friend who had trained in germany many moons ago. I never heard an instructor in this country talk about a horse's back swinging, or the scales of training, for example  When I'd had my eyes opened, I knew what to look for in a trainer and never looked back. 

However, I do think you need to have it in you as a rider, to want to move beyond that. I am a reflective person, and i think that's the personality that you need. Not self doubt, but the ability to reflect on something and learn from it.  You can't teach feel, really, if a person doesn't have that inclination.


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## Wheels (3 December 2016)

This is a difficult one for me

In some cases I think behavioural problems can come from poor handling, some from pain, some from uncomfortable tack - whether we're an owner / rider / trainer / teacher / equine professional we all need to work together to make things better for the horse.  Some people I know think behavioural problems are 'almost never' to do with pain, some people think behavioural problems are 'almost always' to do with a pain or discomfort issue.  For me it's somewhere in the middle.

Professional riders can push the horse through a lot of issues and still get a tune out of a horse that is not at their physical peak.  I've visited 2 professional yards in the last week where the horses are clearly sore or at least annoyed by their saddle, horses have atrophy behind the withers but because the horses are super talented and the riders super talented the horses still go OK and still perform and still score well and jump well.  Any behavioural type issues are put down to high jinks or quirkiness when in reality if the saddles were a better fit and the muscles were full and not atrophied then these horses and riders would both have an easier and more pleasant life


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## teapot (3 December 2016)

milliepops said:



			TBH I learnt to look beyond the very basics to assess a horse's way of going from a friend who had trained in germany many moons ago. I never heard an instructor in this country talk about a horse's back swinging, or the scales of training, for example  When I'd had my eyes opened, I knew what to look for in a trainer and never looked back.
		
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Sadly I'd put money on many people never having had the scales of training ingrained in their brains. You must have met some pretty poor instructors though to have never heard them talking about either of those things. 

It's reading threads like this that make me truly appreciate just how good my lessons where when I first started to ride, and now having them again ten years on, how fantastically good new instructor is.  Not in any way an experienced rider compared to most on this forum but at least I've been trained from the beginning in the correct way. Guess I'm one of the lucky ones


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## Wagtail (3 December 2016)

Wheels said:



			This is a difficult one for me

In some cases I think behavioural problems can come from poor handling, some from pain, some from uncomfortable tack - whether we're an owner / rider / trainer / teacher / equine professional we all need to work together to make things better for the horse.  Some people I know think behavioural problems are 'almost never' to do with pain, some people think behavioural problems are 'almost always' to do with a pain or discomfort issue.  For me it's somewhere in the middle.

Professional riders can push the horse through a lot of issues and still get a tune out of a horse that is not at their physical peak.  I've visited 2 professional yards in the last week where the horses are clearly sore or at least annoyed by their saddle, horses have atrophy behind the withers but because the horses are super talented and the riders super talented the horses still go OK and still perform and still score well and jump well.  Any behavioural type issues are put down to high jinks or quirkiness when in reality if the saddles were a better fit and the muscles were full and not atrophied then these horses and riders would both have an easier and more pleasant life
		
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Totally agree. Professional riders can get a tune out of horses even when they are uncomfortable. The atrophy is all too common. I remember years ago we all used our favourite saddles on all the horses and they went hunting, show jumping and yes they may have had a nap or a buck or even a rear and we'd put it down to them being fresh. I still see this happening in some professional yards.


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## ycbm (3 December 2016)

I find the idea that applying the scales of training are any guarantee that a horse is not working in pain pretty odd. The last research I saw about horses trained in Germany, the home of the scales of training, for a dressage career, showed a pretty devastating wastage rate by the age of seven.And few horses seem to compete at top level beyond their early/mid teens, even Carl's.

I totally agree that a mentally strong and competent rider can make a horse perform in  spite of issues. In retrospect, I've done it to at least one, possibly more.


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## Mike007 (4 December 2016)

milliepops said:



			Sorry. was thinking about trainers.   I have to be honest, I think people are failed in this regard by what I would describe as BHS-y instructors.  Great for beginners, great for nervous people, great for getting people going, but what I see is that the ones who have come up through those qualifications but gone no further can lack the depth to go beyond a transactional way of teaching.  kick, pull, turn left, turn right etc.    Don't think I'm making a blanket statement, my own trainer is FBHS but it doesn't stop there  

TBH I learnt to look beyond the very basics to assess a horse's way of going from a friend who had trained in germany many moons ago. I never heard an instructor in this country talk about a horse's back swinging, or the scales of training, for example  When I'd had my eyes opened, I knew what to look for in a trainer and never looked back. 

However, I do think you need to have it in you as a rider, to want to move beyond that. I am a reflective person, and i think that's the personality that you need. Not self doubt, but the ability to reflect on something and learn from it.  You can't teach feel, really, if a person doesn't have that inclination.
		
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Ahh ,the BHS way, I have struggled with one particular horse for years . Learn to ride Mike I hear you say , true , but the other riders I have sat on him have varied from a professional eventer to a stage 4/ A test  rider. All have said he is difficult ,too clever ,willing to please ,but ultra sensitive. The breakthrough came from a session with a Canadian instructor ,former olympic squad way back in the dark ages. His efforts cracked the glass ceiling we had . A truly sensitive and intuitive instructor, yet he failed his stage 4 BHS recently. Daft ! The guy was a better rider than all those assessing him and had the track record to prove it!


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## tallyho! (4 December 2016)

milliepops said:



			Sorry. was thinking about trainers.   I have to be honest, I think people are failed in this regard by what I would describe as BHS-y instructors.  Great for beginners, great for nervous people, great for getting people going, but what I see is that the ones who have come up through those qualifications but gone no further can lack the depth to go beyond a transactional way of teaching.  kick, pull, turn left, turn right etc.    Don't think I'm making a blanket statement, my own trainer is FBHS but it doesn't stop there  

TBH I learnt to look beyond the very basics to assess a horse's way of going from a friend who had trained in germany many moons ago. I never heard an instructor in this country talk about a horse's back swinging, or the scales of training, for example  When I'd had my eyes opened, I knew what to look for in a trainer and never looked back. 

However, I do think you need to have it in you as a rider, to want to move beyond that. I am a reflective person, and i think that's the personality that you need. Not self doubt, but the ability to reflect on something and learn from it.  You can't teach feel, really, if a person doesn't have that inclination.
		
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Mike007 said:



			Ahh ,the BHS way, I have struggled with one particular horse for years . Learn to ride Mike I hear you say , true , but the other riders I have sat on him have varied from a professional eventer to a stage 4/ A test  rider. All have said he is difficult ,too clever ,willing to please ,but ultra sensitive. The breakthrough came from a session with a Canadian instructor ,former olympic squad way back in the dark ages. His efforts cracked the glass ceiling we had . A truly sensitive and intuitive instructor, yet he failed his stage 4 BHS recently. Daft ! The guy was a better rider than all those assessing him and had the track record to prove it!
		
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Glad you've both pointed out the elephant.... 

Well all I can say is that the Canadian instructor didn't ride according to the BHS Riding Bible... basically, computer said NO!
If my own BHS examinations were anything to go by, riding to preserve the horse wasn't on the syllabus.


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## milliepops (4 December 2016)

ycbm said:



			I find the idea that applying the scales of training are any guarantee that a horse is not working in pain pretty odd. The last research I saw about horses trained in Germany, the home of the scales of training, for a dressage career, showed a pretty devastating wastage rate by the age of seven.And few horses seem to compete at top level beyond their early/mid teens, even Carl's.

I totally agree that a mentally strong and competent rider can make a horse perform in  spite of issues. In retrospect, I've done it to at least one, possibly more.
		
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you do manage to draw some odd conclusions from things people say 
I thought the discussion had moved beyond the pain/behaviour thing, but in any case I do think there is a relevant link to the scales of training. For me, the point of the SoT is Throughness - that intangible quality where the horse can perform his work effortlessly and without a hint of resistances. I do not think it is possible for a horse to be truly through, if it has pain somewhere. True, a good rider could make a horse *more* though despite a physical problem, but not truly through, because it would require such help from the rider that it would lose the effortless quality.

And for me, a horse should be through at each level of its training, it's not something to aspire to... but should be possible at each stage, otherwise something is lacking. A horse working at prelim should be through, as should one at GP, it's just the GP horse needs to be more developed in other areas to deliver the throughness in that GP way of going.

In addition, what are people feeling when they notice an issue that might point to a physical cause, but a deficiency in one of the scales of training?  Horse naps, or can't do a transition or whatever... what's happened? The contact has gone up the swanee.  Or the submission has gone to pot. Or the horse can't be straight, or supple or whatever.  It's an element of the scales of training that the rider has noticed, just may not be thinking about it in that explicit way.

I totally agree that the old school 'german' way of pushing and holding is not something that should be held up as a beacon of training perfection, but I also think that way of riding is waning - look at those at the top of the sport now, say, Kristina Sprehe, who is much more in the harmonious camp than the old pushing and shoving camp. There's a reason why she's at the top and able to challenge CDJ & Valegro... and that's because she's been rewarded up the levels in Germany, for showing that way of going.


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## DanceswithCows (4 December 2016)

honetpot said:



			I think the work that horses are asked to do is more concentrated, lots of riding in circles on non natural surfaces. People ride at shows, are on their backs for hours but perhaps have only ridden very little in the week, or its been on a walker, and then they wonder why its starts to say no, and that hoping the animal is physically well.
  There is a theory that all horses are lame, in the fact like people they will always favour one limb, but through exercise and training of horse and rider you develop both sides. The trouble is most riders, even those that have ridden for years have no idea they favour one side, always ride on the same diagonal, and do not work the horses evenly.
  So you start with an animal that is not perfect but functionally sound, work it spasmodically and unevenly and when it can not cope and starts napping its the horses fault. So you stick a gadget on it, which usually compresses its frame and prevents it from using its body to compensate, which with regular drilling in the school makes it mentally sour and exacerbate any physical problems it may have had or is developing. By this time you 'need' a saddle fitter, back man, teeth done and spend x amounts on vets.
   No, its not all the riders fault, but horses are basically built to go in straight lines and graduated turns, and have a basic natural level of fitness, so to make them function well we build on that gradually, like the old hunter fitting work. They will put up with a lot if they are happy, you only have to go to PC to see ponies that will put up with almost any thing and still do their job. As people if we are happy mentally we will ignore pain.
  I have had many animals over many years, most I keep for life and never had one lame apart from the odd kick, most competed did PC hunted etc. Even the horse I got already with diagnosed navicular I managed to keep sound and in work to the point of cub hunting, but as someone else has said this all takes time, which nobody seems to have. Its easier to buy another rug, or gadget and say there is something wrong with the horse.
		
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Agree with this


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## DanceswithCows (4 December 2016)

Alexa123 said:



			But it would be a sad day if horses became  the preserve of 'the chosen few' - those of a saintly, well-balanced disposition who have also had the benefit of that rare thing - a solid equestrian heritage, knowledge, experience and expertise.
		
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Weeell, this I actually disagree with.  I know it will probably rankle a few, but I've spent many, many hours observing people, horses (and other animals  ) and chewing over the ethics and history around all this stuff.  Gawd knows why, but anyway - I think some people have it and some people don't, and if you don't, you can't be taught.  You could be taught to go round a riding school in an acceptable fashion perhaps, but buying, owning, bringing on and successfully riding your own youngster?  I think that takes a special type of someone who has 'IT'.  

If you look to the past, yes a lot of people 'used' horses, but the trade of the breeding and training and upkeep of the horses was the specialised job of a recognised 'horseman'.   

I firmly do not believe it's about heritage though, I think it's just a quirk of genetics and character that gives you the passion to do it and the understanding.  There's plenty of awesome horsemen out there that don't come from particularly horsey backgrounds (and I'm sure vice versa!).  

I see it in myself.  I did not come from a farming background one little bit, my family are mostly scared of cows, truth be known.  But I had this inexplicable fascination with them and when I finally got my hands on some, just found this kind of 'synergy' (or something).  I feel plumbed into cows, I know what they're going to do before they do it, it feels effortless.  I would be 100% confident to take ANY cow anyone would care to pick and train it.  I have trained cows to do crazy things no problemo, and I've *tried* to teach other people to do it...but I just can't, unless they have 'it', in which case they don't need me.  doesn't matter how many hours I spend trying to dissect it and break it down (and I have spent many...), some people just can NOT fathom the mindset of a cow, they will only ever achieve a rudimentary kind of working relationship.  And tbh, most seem delighted with themselves over that *rolls eyes* 

I'm pretty good with other kinds of stock too, I can competently handle them all, even horses; they're pretty similar in a lot of ways.  But, I recognise I'm not as good with horses as I am with cows.  I can't predict them or understand them as well.  Just don't have 'it' and I wouldn't pretend to.  I'm perhaps a level up from that rudimentary one I talked about simply because I know my own limitations and use what of my cow sense I can on a horse.  I'm not brilliant with dogs either - rudimentary, yeah, fine, but there's people out there that can get a dog to do ANYTHING - they have the 'it', but with dogs.  

So, I think you can be taught but really unless you have that spark of something to begin with, that instinct, you're never going to be a true 'horseman' and perhaps the breeding and training etc should be left to those guys.  Do we all need to admit that, sad as you may personally find it, horses *aren't* for everyone, even most people, and that having that genetic quirk is a recognisable, rare skill?  Horses are cheaper and more accessible than ever - livery yards abound, rugs and all the junk is dirt cheap thesedays (even when I was a kid a rug was over £100, can pick one up for 30 thesedays brand new!) and the populace is more affluent, despite how much we moan about it  .  For horses, that's kinda unprecedented.  Is it a good thing?  I think maybe not 

Sorry for the essay, thanks for the mindfodder!


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## Alexa123 (4 December 2016)

A great thread &#8211; for those that care to engage in these difficult, demanding questions, anyway. (And a great thread for Michael Peace &#8211; who, inadvertently, got over 5,000 views for free )! BUT (always BUTS), we cannot ignore the fact that people like him will always eschew the physical because his childrens&#8217; school fees, or whatever,  depend on it, and at the same time, the &#8216;physical&#8217;  is the very bread and butter of veterinary practice (my own niece has given up veterinary practice due to the &#8216;financial driver&#8217;. How often is &#8220;Is it insured?&#8221;  the first thing they ask). Gah!
(DanceswithCows &#8211; you seem like a wise old soul, for sure; but some of us who don&#8217;t quite have &#8216;it&#8217; in spades, maybe NEED our animals just as much, if not more than you).


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## tallyho! (4 December 2016)

DanceswithCows said:



			Weeell, this I actually disagree with.  I know it will probably rankle a few, but I've spent many, many hours observing people, horses (and other animals  ) and chewing over the ethics and history around all this stuff.  Gawd knows why, but anyway - I think some people have it and some people don't, and if you don't, you can't be taught.  You could be taught to go round a riding school in an acceptable fashion perhaps, but buying, owning, bringing on and successfully riding your own youngster?  I think that takes a special type of someone who has 'IT'.  

If you look to the past, yes a lot of people 'used' horses, but the trade of the breeding and training and upkeep of the horses was the specialised job of a recognised 'horseman'.   

I firmly do not believe it's about heritage though, I think it's just a quirk of genetics and character that gives you the passion to do it and the understanding.  There's plenty of awesome horsemen out there that don't come from particularly horsey backgrounds (and I'm sure vice versa!).  

I see it in myself.  I did not come from a farming background one little bit, my family are mostly scared of cows, truth be known.  But I had this inexplicable fascination with them and when I finally got my hands on some, just found this kind of 'synergy' (or something).  I feel plumbed into cows, I know what they're going to do before they do it, it feels effortless.  I would be 100% confident to take ANY cow anyone would care to pick and train it.  I have trained cows to do crazy things no problemo, and I've *tried* to teach other people to do it...but I just can't, unless they have 'it', in which case they don't need me.  doesn't matter how many hours I spend trying to dissect it and break it down (and I have spent many...), some people just can NOT fathom the mindset of a cow, they will only ever achieve a rudimentary kind of working relationship.  And tbh, most seem delighted with themselves over that *rolls eyes* 

I'm pretty good with other kinds of stock too, I can competently handle them all, even horses; they're pretty similar in a lot of ways.  But, I recognise I'm not as good with horses as I am with cows.  I can't predict them or understand them as well.  Just don't have 'it' and I wouldn't pretend to.  I'm perhaps a level up from that rudimentary one I talked about simply because I know my own limitations and use what of my cow sense I can on a horse.  I'm not brilliant with dogs either - rudimentary, yeah, fine, but there's people out there that can get a dog to do ANYTHING - they have the 'it', but with dogs.  

So, I think you can be taught but really unless you have that spark of something to begin with, that instinct, you're never going to be a true 'horseman' and perhaps the breeding and training etc should be left to those guys.  Do we all need to admit that, sad as you may personally find it, horses *aren't* for everyone, even most people, and that having that genetic quirk is a recognisable, rare skill?  Horses are cheaper and more accessible than ever - livery yards abound, rugs and all the junk is dirt cheap thesedays (even when I was a kid a rug was over £100, can pick one up for 30 thesedays brand new!) and the populace is more affluent, despite how much we moan about it  .  For horses, that's kinda unprecedented.  Is it a good thing?  I think maybe not 

Sorry for the essay, thanks for the mindfodder!
		
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Cowgirl, I think you have a point. I'm not entirely sure riding is the preserve of the few, however, I believe there are premises where owners have very *few* horses that need extra peripheral care... there are few who know how to do that. It's a shame not everyone seeks it. No-one seeks to preserve a horse, lets admit that. The aim of competition is to win the admiration of the day whatever that may be. No judge looks at a team and asks "now, is what they are doing preserving that horse?". Tell me I am wrong please!


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## ycbm (4 December 2016)

tallyho! said:



			Cowgirl, I think you have a point. I'm not entirely sure riding is the preserve of the few, however, I believe there are premises where owners have very *few* horses that need extra peripheral care... there are few who know how to do that. It's a shame not everyone seeks it. No-one seeks to preserve a horse, lets admit that. The aim of competition is to win the admiration of the day whatever that may be. No judge looks at a team and asks "now, is what they are doing preserving that horse?". Tell me I am wrong please!
		
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With you completely here TH. I hear people say and write that if we train horses to carry themselves correctly they will last longer. But there is absolutely no evidence that I know of to prove that. And no research that tells us which of the many ways of riding a horse (western,  dressage, English chair seat hunter, slop along hacker, knees in armpits jockey)  is the 'correct' one for longevity, if indeed any of them are.

What's worse is that I think it probably varies from horse to horse!  Or at the very least, breed to breed.

Sometimes I just wish they could talk!


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## Slightlyconfused (4 December 2016)

ycbm said:



			With you completely here TH. I hear people say and write that if we train horses to carry themselves correctly they will last longer. But there is absolutely no evidence that I know of to prove that. And no research that tells us which of the many ways of riding a horse (western,  dressage, English chair seat hunter, slop along hacker, knees in armpits jockey)  is the 'correct' one for longevity, if indeed any of them are.

What's worse is that I think it probably varies from horse to horse!  Or at the very least, breed to breed.

Sometimes I just wish they could talk!
		
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I have two very different horses and the way they naturally carry themselves when working right is very very different due to their conformation which I also a lot of people don't take into the consideration when schooling or know that it is an issue/think to thing about. 

My younger appy has tb in him and he his put together and set in the neck and shoulders differently than my other appy who I think has rhino in him. When asking for a nice contact both will be "on the bit" (I hate that term for some reason) but both will look completely different but both will be working correctly within their conformation limitations. 

I am currently have lessons with quite a few liverys with a bio mechanics instructor who is classicly trained and oh my goodness the difference in our positions, just tiny adjustments most of the time, and the horse just changes and moves so much better and you can feel how freer they are.


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## ycbm (4 December 2016)

Slightlyconfused said:



			I have two very different horses and the way they naturally carry themselves when working right is very very different due to their conformation which I also a lot of people don't take into the consideration when schooling or know that it is an issue/think to thing about. 

My younger appy has tb in him and he his put together and set in the neck and shoulders differently than my other appy who I think has rhino in him. When asking for a nice contact both will be "on the bit" (I hate that term for some reason) but both will look completely different but both will be working correctly within their conformation limitations. 

I am currently have lessons with quite a few liverys with a bio mechanics instructor who is classicly trained and oh my goodness the difference in our positions, just tiny adjustments most of the time, and the horse just changes and moves so much better and you can feel how freer they are.
		
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I'm going through the same, two horses of the same age but totally different build. One who is 'on top' of his legs, and the other who would, by choice, tip forward to push into a collar.

Personally, I'm pretty convinced that shoulder/hip/heel alignment in the rider is 'right' because of what I feel under me when I do it. I just wish we had more solid evidence.


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## Slightlyconfused (4 December 2016)

ycbm said:



			I'm going through the same, two horses of the same age but totally different build. One who is 'on top' of his legs, and the other who would, by choice, tip forward to push into a collar.

Personally, I'm pretty convinced that shoulder/hip/heel alignment in the rider is 'right' because of what I feel under me when I do it. I just wish we had more solid evidence.
		
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Oh yes my big spotty likes to be behind the vertical just ever so slightly and we are just starting to see him stretching forward into a more lower longer frame while getting him forward in a nice even rhythm and then when stronger to get up a collected but that will be at least six ish months of strengthening before we ask that of him. 

The rhino on the other hand likes to naturally go in a more lower and longer frame and we are just about getting him up and off his shoulders but again it's a long slow process as muscle memory takes a long time to change. 

I have a habit of tilting my pelvis forward and that in turn makes big spotty rush and go flat but if I sit nice on my tail bone he relaxes nicely so I'm very aware if they aren't going right what am I doing wrong to block them.

I also wish more horse owners will have a basis understanding of anatomy and physiology of the horses especially building muscle. 
And hour hard schooling with no walk breaks is not going to build muscle you need short and sweet with plenty of walk breaks to allow the muscles to get oxygenated and allow them.to repair and remember.


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## DanceswithCows (5 December 2016)

Alexa123 said:



			(DanceswithCows &#8211; you seem like a wise old soul, for sure; but some of us who don&#8217;t quite have &#8216;it&#8217; in spades, maybe NEED our animals just as much, if not more than you).
		
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Interesting!  What do you mean?  In a career sense, or a spiritual one?  On a career front it could always be argued that there's choice behind that in this day and age.  For the 'spiritual' one, there are still options but they do all tend to start with admitting some perhaps painful home truths to oneself!  Just as in the past many people used horses but weren't horsemen, today you can get a horse fix without being in sole charge of it's handling and training.  Or, if you feel you must own, always buy schoolmasters, accept help or just have them as pets (which is basically what mine are).  

I have a herd of conservation grazing exmoors - I can go and look at them, think about how ancient they are, how beautiful they look in the landscape and enjoy a warm fuzzy glow. Don't have to ride 'em though.  Other than that, I hop on someone else's horses; hunt horses, stunt horses, trekking horses, friend's horses.  Horses they train, assess and handle and I just enjoy temporarily without being responsible for them!  Even at a riding school you can request to ride the same horse every time if you want to build up a bond?


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## DanceswithCows (5 December 2016)

tallyho! said:



			Cowgirl, I think you have a point. I'm not entirely sure riding is the preserve of the few
		
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Riding no, but owning/breeding/training, imo, yes!


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## tristar (5 December 2016)

if you train a horse correctly it will last longer, if fact training of the horse evolved in a time when veterinary science was in its infancy, and preserving the horse was economic, and horse management was a way of life.

but more importantly if you can`t ride the thing correctly you`re going no- where, flashy p`s post i liked very much about not underestimating the effort involved in training a horse from scratch, but an enormous amount of effort is needed to ride well, and this i see as a great downfall today.

i train a horse to the horse`s benefit, it may take years, but i love every moment, and as they get older they become better and better to ride and stay sound, they become almost priceless, because you know their uniqueness and that a horse like that cannot be bought for money, the training  is like a huge investment that pays off ultimately, you do it for the horse and one day the horse pays you back, and you arrive at a point where you realize that the horse has trained you to be a better rider, because you were willing to listen and give him the chance.

it needs people like michael peace to say things to shock and shake things up,  some people need to look at themselves bigtime and get their finger out where their riding is concerned.

years ago many horses lived into their late twenties, we have documentary evidence of this from stud books


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## Goldenstar (5 December 2016)

I just wonder other people are doing if anything in that video shocked them or shook them up.
It just seemed to be stating the blindingly obvious .
What on earth are people being taught if a video like that contains surprises .


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## ycbm (5 December 2016)

years ago many horses lived into their late twenties, we have documentary evidence of this from stud books
		
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how old are you tristar?

When I first started riding, all horses over ten were described as aged. When I started sorting out other people's cock-ups and selling, the maximum price for a riding club type horse was at eight and nine. From ten onwards they were worth less each year. It was not possible to insure a horse over the age of fifteen for vets fees at all.

When I learnt to ride, there were no indoor schools. You started on a lead rein ride around the roads, then a walk and trot, then a full wtc ride. Training these days is better than it has ever been in my lifetime. I think you have some exceptionally rose tinted glasses about the recent and the far past. If a horse gave too many problems, they shot it and got another. 

I'm sure there are FAR more horses working in their twenties today than ever before.






			if you train a horse correctly it will last longer
		
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Prove it. And define 'correctly'.  I've hunted alongside two horses well into their twenties ridden by men who ride in a chair seat, with dreadful hands, and never schooled one single hour in their entire lives. Neither rider nor horse would know what 'on the bit' meant.  Conversely I've watched a ton of 'correctly' trained dressage horses break down before their mid teens because it just isn't natural for a horse to carry so much weight on the hocks.

Horses are naturally weighted into the forehand. How much distribution of that weight further back is optimum for a long life carrying a rider? I wish I knew but afaik that research simply doesn't exist.


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## ycbm (5 December 2016)

Goldenstar said:



			I just wonder other people are doing if anything in that video shocked them or shook them up.
It just seemed to be stating the blindingly obvious .
What on earth are people being taught if a video like that contains surprises .
		
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With you there.


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## milliepops (5 December 2016)

ycbm said:



			how old are you tristar?


Prove it. And define 'correctly'.  I've hunted alongside two horses well into their twenties ridden by men who ride in a chair seat, with dreadful hands, and never schooled one single hour in their entire lives. Neither rider nor horse would know what 'on the bit' meant.  Conversely I've watched a ton of 'correctly' trained dressage horses break down before their mid teens because it just isn't natural for a horse to carry so much weight on the hocks.
		
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there are too many variables here though... the hunters are likely to have worked on a variety of surfaces and different terrain, whereas we know that too much work on artificial surfaces can be detrimental to horses and long term soundness...


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## Goldenstar (5 December 2016)

Horses are working much much longer when I first worked I looked after an eighteen yo hunter people used to come and look at him because he was so unusual.
I do think correct training will make a horse last longer but it's defining correct training for longevity that makes it a bit more complicated .
And of course there are always horses that buck the trend who despite all sorts of disadvantages go on and on and there will be always ones who despite careful treatment don't last .
I don't like to work my horses on surfaces much I avoid it and set my system around limiting the time they work on them .


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## Cortez (5 December 2016)

Goldenstar said:



			I just wonder other people are doing if anything in that video shocked them or shook them up.
It just seemed to be stating the blindingly obvious .
What on earth are people being taught if a video like that contains surprises .
		
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Agreed. What on earth has happened to the teaching of riding in the UK? Things are dire enough over here, when I go over to competitions in England I am really shocked at some of the riding (sorry to say it....).


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## Goldenstar (5 December 2016)

Cortez said:



			Agreed. What on earth has happened to the teaching of riding in the UK? Things are dire enough over here, when I go over to competitions in England I am really shocked at some of the riding (sorry to say it....).
		
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Like I said above I am no longer sure what lots are people are being taught or is that there's a large group who don't have the training bug I love being trained it's my favourite thing .


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## ycbm (5 December 2016)

milliepops said:



			there are too many variables here though... the hunters are likely to have worked on a variety of surfaces and different terrain, whereas we know that too much work on artificial surfaces can be detrimental to horses and long term soundness...
		
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Of course there are too many variables. I used those examples to show how pointless it is for anyone to say 'I train my horses correctly and they never go lame'. Samples of one or three or ten are useless. We need proper research, but we aren't going to get it because it's too expensive to control the variables over the time period that would be necessary.


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## Goldenstar (5 December 2016)

You see I think too much research might even be part of the problem too little development of proper feel ( back to the teaching thing ) and too much dependance on others rather than really grafting hard yourself .


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## ycbm (5 December 2016)

Cortez said:



			Agreed. What on earth has happened to the teaching of riding in the UK? Things are dire enough over here, when I go over to competitions in England I am really shocked at some of the riding (sorry to say it....).
		
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I think it's probably as much a function of just how many people keep and ride and compete horses now. The numpties didn't used to travel and compete, they kept their poor riding at home hacking around the lanes.

Though there is a new class of bad riding now, people who think 'on the bit' comes from the hands. That never used to happen, because lower level riders had never even heard the expression!  My pet hate is the hands pinned down on either side of the pommel, like a pair of fixed side reins.


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## ycbm (5 December 2016)

Goldenstar said:



			You see I think too much research might even be part of the problem too little development of proper feel ( back to the teaching thing ) and too much dependance on others rather than really grafting hard yourself .
		
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I absolutely agree that feel is the number one requirement.


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## Orangehorse (5 December 2016)

When I was growing up - gosh, it probably is 50 years ago - horses were often retired at 13 as they were "old."  It would have been virtually impossible to sell a teenage horse.  We had some horses from a local dealer and he had a wonderful show jumper that was still jumping at 19, it was regarded as amazing.  There was also a show jumping pony that his children jumped and then got passed on to a local farmer's son and this pony had a docked tail, so how old was that?
He DID keep his old horses, when he died he had a 45 year old pony in the field amongst others, but he was pretty rare.

Can't you remember the fuss when Mark Philips took Columbus round Badminton at age 14?  He was practically accused of cruelty. 

In theory a correctly trained and schooled horse will last longer than one that doesn't get the same, but there are just so many variables notably the constitution of the individual horse.  Horses do go on longer now, but that is down to better veterinary care, wormers, and joint medication.


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## Alexa123 (5 December 2016)

Here&#8217;s the thing - whilst you wise old/young sages on here pontificate (and with the best possible intentions, I have no doubt), let&#8217;s not forget that the majority of horse owners go more than the extra mile for their precious equines &#8211; to make sure that their lives are as good as they can be.  BUT, WE DON&#8217;T KNOW WHAT WE DON&#8217;T KNOW! And I (and many like me) have sought help and advice from supposedly  &#8216;those in the know&#8217;, who later turned out to be maybe NOT so in the know. Or, if they ARE in the know, then they&#8217;re not all that interested in sharing their experience and expertise with you. It is a tangled web, that&#8217;s for sure!
We must never stop learning, and with time, you start to get a better instinct for who to listen to - and that might even be you, yourself.


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## DanceswithCows (5 December 2016)

Oh yes my equestrian shenanigans have been horrifically hampered by trusting others too much in the past!  Would've been better following my own instincts....


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## ycbm (5 December 2016)

Alexa123 said:



			Here&#8217;s the thing - whilst you wise old/young sages on here pontificate (and with the best possible intentions, I have no doubt), let&#8217;s not forget that the majority of horse owners go more than the extra mile for their precious equines &#8211; to make sure that their lives are as good as they can be.  BUT, WE DON&#8217;T KNOW WHAT WE DON&#8217;T KNOW! And I (and many like me) have sought help and advice from supposedly  &#8216;those in the know&#8217;, who later turned out to be maybe NOT so in the know. Or, if they ARE in the know, then they&#8217;re not all that interested in sharing their experience and expertise with you. It is a tangled web, that&#8217;s for sure!
We must never stop learning, and with time, you start to get a better instinct for who to listen to - and that might even be you, yourself.
		
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Do you know the problem, Alexa?  You can get five decades in and STILL realise how much you don't know!


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## Alexa123 (5 December 2016)

Haha! And we just keep going back for more!


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## milliepops (5 December 2016)

Alexa123 said:



			Heres the thing - whilst you wise old/young sages on here pontificate (and with the best possible intentions, I have no doubt), lets not forget that the majority of horse owners go more than the extra mile for their precious equines  to make sure that their lives are as good as they can be.  BUT, WE DONT KNOW WHAT WE DONT KNOW! And I (and many like me) have sought help and advice from supposedly  those in the know, who later turned out to be maybe NOT so in the know. Or, if they ARE in the know, then theyre not all that interested in sharing their experience and expertise with you. It is a tangled web, thats for sure!
*We must never stop learning, and with time, you start to get a better instinct for who to listen to - and that might even be you, yourself.*

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Yes, absolutely agree 

I've said it elsewhere on this thread and elsewhere in the past but I am repeatedly disappointed by the BHS style instructors  People think they are doing the right thing by getting qualified help in- it's something that many people are advised on here when they post with an issue.  But spend any time on a big yard these days and you'll see a few visiting instructors...  I'm sure there are good ones out there who have come through the system and then found their own way but I really hear some questionable things from some... and some frustrated pupils not understanding why they can't progress.  

I am helping with 5 very different horses on a fairly regular basis at the moment and I'd be mortified if they weren't showing improvements week on week... I think if I noticed that the people I was teaching were stagnating I'd be either suggesting they move on (not great business sense, granted), or work out a way to advance myself so that I had more to offer them.

You're dead right that we are all dependent on having someone else show us the way forward - thrashing around on your own is a difficult way to learn (though not impossible if you are the kind of person who can learn from mistakes).  But I think lots of instruction leads willing pupils down a dead end  been there myself. And even that standardised, if limited, way of teaching riding is in decline - not many stage 4 level riding schools about these days (and the stage 4 syllabus is just the tip of the iceberg in terms of teaching HORSES IMO, its very focussed on making tidy riders who can run a yard).

Gurghhhh.  Don't know what the answer is, apart from to keep showing anyone who asks, that there is Another Way


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## milliepops (5 December 2016)

Alexa123 said:



			Haha! And we just keep going back for more!
		
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that's what makes horses so addictive  You never get to the end, there's no anticlimax... just keep pushing on


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## Cortez (5 December 2016)

BHS......don't get me started.


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## milliepops (5 December 2016)

Cortez said:



			BHS......don't get me started.
		
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problem is, if you're a less experienced rider and you either get into a pickle or just want to improve yourself and your horse, a BHS instructor is the obvious place to start - with the accreditation and insurance etc you might reasonably expect it to be good solid training.  

My experience has been quite different and sounds like I'm not alone, I've found a fundamental lack of understanding around the theory of training horses :/  Lots of people with zillions of school exercises in their heads to fire up novice riders, and loads of encouragement, but not a great deal else... and absolutely nothing about 'feel'!  I hear a lot of 'leg, leg leg!' and 'don't worry about what his head is doing' resulting in chucking the contact away and hooning about out of balance and rushed out of rhythm... fine for a person learning to ride, but not for someone looking to train their own horse up.  People keep telling me the reason they can't get their horses going well is because their legs aren't strong enough   at what point are they going to be shown how to make their horses more sensitive?


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## DirectorFury (5 December 2016)

Cortez said:



			BHS......don't get me started.
		
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milliepops said:



			problem is, if you're a less experienced rider and you either get into a pickle or just want to improve yourself and your horse, a BHS instructor is the obvious place to start - with the accreditation and insurance etc you might reasonably expect it to be good solid training.  

My experience has been quite different and sounds like I'm not alone, I've found a fundamental lack of understanding around the theory of training horses :/  Lots of people with zillions of school exercises in their heads to fire up novice riders, and loads of encouragement, but not a great deal else... and absolutely nothing about 'feel'!  I hear a lot of 'leg, leg leg!' and 'don't worry about what his head is doing' resulting in chucking the contact away and hooning about out of balance and rushed out of rhythm... fine for a person learning to ride, but not for someone looking to train their own horse up.  People keep telling me the reason they can't get their horses going well is because their legs aren't strong enough   at what point are they going to be shown how to make their horses more sensitive?
		
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Somewhat off topic here, but it's really really hard to find good instructors. I've paid £70ph to be basically told to saw on my horses mouth to get her head down (er, no, go away), I've travelled for two hours to someone different and been told the same! I've gone to local clinics organised with semi-big-names and they've all come back to the same thing - get the head down. There, ta da! An outline! And let's just ignore the fact you can't ask the horse do any sort of collection or extension because its arse is somewhere in the next county...

So, how do you find good instruction? How do you know it's good instruction before paying for or travelling to a lesson?


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## tristar (5 December 2016)

well i`ve seen  more than a few horses 6 7 8 years on the scrap heap from dressage and not that high a level, but how does one prove they were correctly trained.?.

its not true that all horses `are naturally on the forehand` they have more  bodyweight yes but that is different to when  they are working, some breeds have a  natural point  of balance further back.

how can you know the training of  the dressage horses was correct, if it broke down the horses? sounds like it was wrong to me

i don`t need to define correct training or justify my opinion to prove anything, this is just a simple debate where all contribute, and base their thoughts on their experiences.

i have seen many horses personally competing to a good age and have known many stallions who competed at international level and still made it to 30, one that springs to mind Le Tot de Semilly and he is a long way from an isolated example, if fact can think of a lot, worked hard still made it to a good age

other tb horses who raced at top level, ie did not have an easy life, are documented in the bloodstock breeders review, 100 years ago no less, lived to their late twenties early thirties,  contrary to the modern idea is that they are naturally shortlived

my grandfather trained green  hunters and i would dispute that they received no training, ridiculous! in fact they were highly schooled horses for their job.

its only common sense that a horse who is trained correctly will last because of the secondary effects, including a level of fitness, its very hard work, even gentle movements can be tiring but they reach parts of the horse that have far reaching influence on the overall conditioning of the body, and harden the tendons and oil the joints, horses are designed to move, that what they do, in fact one of mine who works hard also spends most of the day running round a field, he must do miles, and i can`t find much wrong with him, in fact being stuck in a stable  with insufficient movement must be one of the worst things for a horse.

a horse should thrive on work and get better and better, not breakdown.


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## Orangehorse (5 December 2016)

DirectorFury said:









Somewhat off topic here, but it's really really hard to find good instructors. I've paid £70ph to be basically told to saw on my horses mouth to get her head down (er, no, go away), I've travelled for two hours to someone different and been told the same! I've gone to local clinics organised with semi-big-names and they've all come back to the same thing - get the head down. There, ta da! An outline! And let's just ignore the fact you can't ask the horse do any sort of collection or extension because its arse is somewhere in the next county...

So, how do you find good instruction? How do you know it's good instruction before paying for or travelling to a lesson?
		
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I and my horse are past it now, but I spent many ££££ over the years as what I would call a "Clinic Junky"  I attended demos, clinics and lessons on the trail of the Holy Grail of riding - or how to do it.  I know quite a lot of theory now, but can't say that I am a wonderful rider even though I would like to be.  I would say that I had my best success as a competitor when I was having fairly regular although not frequent lessons with Perry Wood.  

I can tell you who can teach you feel - Mark Rashid has a DVD which will tell you how to feel which leg is doing what.  Routine for cowboys I gather, as they do canter change of leg at a very early stage of training.  Every course I have been on taught me something valuable, and at most of them me and the other participants were wailing "why haven't we been taught this before!"  The big trouble is that even these wonderful teachers didn't all agree on everything either!  So I am thinking of Mary Wanless, Heather Moffett, Deb Bennett.

I would like all the big names of riding would be shut up in a room somewhere and not allowed out until they could all agree on the fundamental "correct" way of riding that would be taught everywhere in England, from beginner riders, through to Grand Prix.  As it is, we thrash and fumble around trying to do things right and then discover we haven't been taught correctly, even fundamental, simple things like keeping the elbow bent.

As my last foray into Clinic World, I had a weekend being taught the "French" school and my horse went wonderfully, but that is controversial as well.


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## milliepops (5 December 2016)

So, how do you find good instruction? How do you know it's good instruction before paying for or travelling to a lesson?
		
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I love watching other people's lessons. I think that's a good commitment free way to decide whether you rate the trainer or not. Offer to video a lesson for someone  if people aren't keen on spectators   sometimes you can buy cheap spectacular tickets at clinics.

Essentially you don't know until you try otherwise. But even the poor lessons teach you something. ..even if it's "I won't do it that way ever again"  :lol:


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## ycbm (5 December 2016)

Tristar it will help if you respond to what I write and not something you imagine you have read.

I did not claim no hunters were schooled, I said that two hunters I knew of still hunting in their mid twenties had never been schooled. I doubt if their training would fit your definition of correct and yet they were both well old for horses in strenuous work.

I did not say that horses are naturally on the forehand, I said that they are naturally weighted into the forehand, which is physically correct.

I don't see the point of discussing whether 'correct' training extends a horses working life if we can't define what 'correct' is. 

And actually, I don't think we can. What gives one horse an extended working life could be completely different from what will suit another, as a couple of other posters have already said.




I share everyone's concern about the quality of training and knowing who to trust. There's a list one dressage judge near me and I watched her teach one day. She had the rider running the horse around far too fast for its natural rhythm. She also kept it going for a length of time that I would not have been happy with. I've no idea what was supposed to be being achieved. I've watched a friend's lesson with £100 a session international trainer who made her warm up her four year old mare on the lunge with side reins causing the horse to be noticeably overbent. And then he told her she should have had them shorter.

Of the last two trainers I've tried, both £50 a pop, one spent the lesson on her mobile phone and the other made me wear an earphone so she could bark instruction at me and refused to discuss what we were actually trying to achieve. 

I've no experience of them, but the BHS qualifications sound deeply flawed.


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## tristar (6 December 2016)

ycbm, i was not responding to you necessarily, or personally, i am not here to `help` you, you are not conducting this debate or supervising it, and i do not like being accused of imagining things thank you,   if i wish to put forward my thoughts i will in the best way i can.

of cause there is correct training but it is largely defined by the horse, through being ridden by a rider with tact and understanding of what they are actually doing and aiming for.


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## PaddyMonty (6 December 2016)

Orangehorse said:



			I would like all the big names of riding would be shut up in a room somewhere and not allowed out until they could all agree on the fundamental "correct" way of riding that would be taught everywhere in England,.
		
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If that happened riding skill would die. There is no 'One' way to ride a horse. There are fundamentals but after that you need to ride the horse underneath you, not the theoretical average horse on an average day.


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## Orangehorse (6 December 2016)

PaddyMonty said:



			If that happened riding skill would die. There is no 'One' way to ride a horse. There are fundamentals but after that you need to ride the horse underneath you, not the theoretical average horse on an average day.
		
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That is riding the individual horse.  An experienced instructor/rider will have a whole tool box of different exercises to develop every horse and if one thing doesn't work, they can try another thing.

What I am getting at is that you could go to several different riding schools in the UK and end up being taught different things.
Presumably all the riders at the Spanish Riding School and Samur learn the same way to ride.


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## ester (6 December 2016)

I'm not sure, plenty of different schools of classical as traditional!


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## Cortez (6 December 2016)

Orangehorse said:



			That is riding the individual horse.  An experienced instructor/rider will have a whole tool box of different exercises to develop every horse and if one thing doesn't work, they can try another thing.

What I am getting at is that you could go to several different riding schools in the UK and end up being taught different things.
Presumably all the riders at the Spanish Riding School and Samur learn the same way to ride.
		
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Yes, that is the whole point - Saumur, the SRS, the Royal School in Jerez, they are all teaching from an established, proven tradition to a professional level, and the students that graduate from there are teaching the same tradition, and so the standards are maintained. What is lacking/has been lost or perhaps never really existed in this part of the world is that reference to ancient learning and technique. 

What I see all around me is a mishmash of "new" ideas, wrong ideas, and no ideas! And almost everybody seems to be a novice, new rider with no background of riding and training behind them. Even "qualified" instructors are often novicey riders with no understanding, depth or real experience. Compare this with the requirements for a licensed instructor from Germany/Denmark/France/Spain; all capable of training to a high level and trained on schoolmasters from the very beginning. Different world out there, I can tell you.


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## LinzyD (6 December 2016)

Riding is all about communication between horse and rider, so it's a lot like learning to speak a language.  There are fundamental structures and basic rules of grammar that apply pretty much all the time - the principles of keeping a horse between yourself and the ground;  then there are pre-learned phrases for a variety of situations - the toolbox of exercises and learned responses; then there is the ability to adapt the language you've learned to communicate with people at all levels and in unexpected situations - riding the individual horse and dealing with problems; and then there is a whole higher level of subtlety, nuance, understanding beyond the spoken word and being able to prompt, interrogate, and get beyond - all the rest of higher levels of training.   And if I learn business language I may not be so good at academic language, so I may be good at riding for one discipline, but less good with another.    Learning to ride, being able to train a horse, it's a language, a language that is always evolving and never static and finite.   And Saumur, etc, that's like being fully conversant in Latin and ancient Greek, the pure forms of language from which other languages in those groups have evolved in different, diluted and adapted forms.


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## paddi22 (6 December 2016)

Antw23uk said:



			I cant stop looking at that lower leg waving about! What was the question, lol!
		
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in defence of the MP's lower leg, when i have similar rear-y, nappy horses to school, all the focus just goes on 'forward, forward, forward' and there is a technique to use that is very strong leg on in the rhythm you want them to go forward to, it relaxes some horses and they find the strong leg comforting. it looks awful and you don't do it forever, but there is a stage when you are just trying to instill 'forward' and make them focus on the rhythmn. I havent a clue if thats what hes doing, but i'd imagine it is. I don;t know much about him but  I've seen other videos where he's riding and his leg doesn't do that, so i assume theres a reason.


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## ycbm (6 December 2016)

tristar said:



			ycbm, i was not responding to you necessarily, or personally, i am not here to `help` you, you are not conducting this debate or supervising it, and i do not like being accused of imagining things thank you,   if i wish to put forward my thoughts i will in the best way i can.
		
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There is no need for this nasty sniping tristar. You know full well that your comments about horses on the forehand and unschooled hunters were a response directly to me because I and nobody else had made  comments about weight on the forehand or unschooled hunters. You may not like being told you had misinterpreted what I had said. I like even less being called ridiculous for something I never said at all.

I would still be very interested in hearing what your personal take on 'correct' schooling/riding is for longevity.




PM I agree with you. I had a horse once where my trainer, who I really loved, laughed and said 'He hasn't read the book, has he?'.   He would only settle to work if he was given higher level stuff to do than he 'should' have been ready for. He also used to attack the horse in the mirrors if his mind was not  kept active!!!


Is anyone else actually not keen on the real old school /baroque/SRS type of performance?  I just find those little horses a bit stuffy to look at and a bit boring to watch. My limitation, I'm sure, in not appreciating the skill in what I'm watching.  I also look at pictures of the original masters and see men riding very long with their legs stuck right forwards in a way which would be heavily frowned on today.


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## Cortez (6 December 2016)

ycbm said:



			Is anyone else actually not keen on the real old school /baroque/SRS type of performance?  I just find those little horses a bit stuffy to look at and a bit boring to watch. My limitation, I'm sure, in not appreciating the skill in what I'm watching.  I also look at pictures of the original masters and see men riding very long with their legs stuck right forwards in a way which would be heavily frowned on today.
		
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Erm, no. And I ride this way every day, it's my job.


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## Alexa123 (6 December 2016)

And the beat goes on! Thought I'd throw this one into the mix (imagine the strain/pressure put on THAT mare's joints!  So maybe the thread now needs to move on to the vagaries of breeding! Hah!): &#8216;Dermott Lennon&#8217;s multiple gold medal-winning ride Liscalgot has died aged 26.Known as &#8220;Shirley&#8221; at home, Dermott took on the Irish sports horse as a four-year-old. &#8220;Shirley had many talents and qualities, but the one that always struck me as quite exceptional was her intelligence,&#8221; said Dermott.
Read more at http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news...got-dies-26-606226#zwy355AEJcWPo3fM.99&#8217;


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## YorksG (6 December 2016)

ycbm said:



			There is no need for this nasty sniping tristar. You know full well that your comments about horses on the forehand and unschooled hunters were a response directly to me because I and nobody else had made  comments about weight on the forehand or unschooled hunters. You may not like being told you had misinterpreted what I had said. I like even less being called ridiculous for something I never said at all.

I would still be very interested in hearing what your personal take on 'correct' schooling/riding is for longevity.




PM I agree with you. I had a horse once where my trainer, who I really loved, laughed and said 'He hasn't read the book, has he?'.   He would only settle to work if he was given higher level stuff to do than he 'should' have been ready for. He also used to attack the horse in the mirrors if his mind was not  kept active!!!


Is anyone else actually not keen on the real old school /baroque/SRS type of performance?  I just find those little horses a bit stuffy to look at and a bit boring to watch. My limitation, I'm sure, in not appreciating the skill in what I'm watching.  I also look at pictures of the original masters and see men riding very long with their legs stuck right forwards in a way which would be heavily frowned on today.
		
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Having recently seen the Spanish Riding School of Vienna display, nothing stuffy or boring, a beautiful display of excellent training and riding IMHO, with horses swinging through their backs in all paces.


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## ycbm (6 December 2016)

Cortez said:



			Erm, no. And I ride this way every day, it's my job.
		
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In the photos I've seen of you, gorgeous by the way, you don't look like you stick your legs forward to me 

I saw Peter Madison Greenwell (?)  at Bolsover and saw stressed little horses scurrying around being bounced off the walls. I've watched a video of someone supposed to be a master, forget his name (1950's ?)   riding one handed with the whip in his face, again with the horse scurrying around looking very, very tense. I have seen the SRS too, and that was much better. But none of it floats my boat.  As I admit, though, too little appreciation of how much skill is involved.


PS and I mean too little appreciation, not too little understanding


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## blitznbobs (6 December 2016)

LinzyD said:



			Riding is all about communication between horse and rider, so it's a lot like learning to speak a language.  There are fundamental structures and basic rules of grammar that apply pretty much all the time - the principles of keeping a horse between yourself and the ground;  then there are pre-learned phrases for a variety of situations - the toolbox of exercises and learned responses; then there is the ability to adapt the language you've learned to communicate with people at all levels and in unexpected situations - riding the individual horse and dealing with problems; and then there is a whole higher level of subtlety, nuance, understanding beyond the spoken word and being able to prompt, interrogate, and get beyond - all the rest of higher levels of training.   And if I learn business language I may not be so good at academic language, so I may be good at riding for one discipline, but less good with another.    Learning to ride, being able to train a horse, it's a language, a language that is always evolving and never static and finite.   And Saumur, etc, that's like being fully conversant in Latin and ancient Greek, the pure forms of language from which other languages in those groups have evolved in different, diluted and adapted forms.
		
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I get what you're trying to say but it's not a great analogy modern language is not diluted form on the contrary it is a more nuanced and developed form of language with more subtle cues and complex forms... Here I believe the analogy Holds with the likes of Carl Hester improving the language and understanding between horse and rider... Subtlety should indeed at the centre of horse rider language (with an occasional pony club kick when necessary.)


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## milliepops (6 December 2016)

ycbm said:



			Is anyone else actually not keen on the real old school /baroque/SRS type of performance?  I just find those little horses a bit stuffy to look at and a bit boring to watch. My limitation, I'm sure, in not appreciating the skill in what I'm watching.  I also look at pictures of the original masters and see men riding very long with their legs stuck right forwards in a way which would be heavily frowned on today.
		
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The type of horse isn't one that I personally find appealing ( I think my eye has changed in favour of the loose WBs that dominate competitive dressage) but when I watched SRS a few years ago I was struck by the ability of the riders and handlers to create just enough positive tension in the horses to execute the airs above ground, and the horses were completely relaxed immediately afterwards. 

That speaks to me of a great deal of skilled and systematic training. The riders were also for the most part in perfect balance with the horses and sat in a way that made me rather envious.  I know the SRS is not without controversy but that's what I saw on the day.

As for longevity... perhaps you've inadvertently stumbled upon one definition of correct training then, some of the stallions are well into their 20s and still doing all the high school work.

I haven't been as impressed by other schools but that's my personal opinion 

Lots has changed in riding styles so I don't think it's really isolated to the old masters, think about the old style hunting seat vs the newer style of going with the horse over fences.


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## milliepops (6 December 2016)

ycbm said:



			I saw Peter Madison Greenwell (?)  at Bolsover and saw stressed little horses scurrying around being bounced off the walls. I've watched a video of someone supposed to be a master, forget his name (1950's ?)   riding one handed with the whip in his face, again with the horse scurrying around looking very, very tense. I have seen the SRS too, and that was much better. But none of it floats my boat.  As I admit, though, too little appreciation of how much skill is involved.
		
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There is "good" and "bad" in all areas of equestrian sport though, dunno, it's not my thing either. Just thinking of how you can watch a less accomplished GP in the same competition as Carl, or some top SJers make it look more effortless than others


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## Pearlsasinger (6 December 2016)

Orangehorse said:



			I can tell you who can teach you feel - Mark Rashid has a DVD which will tell you how to feel which leg is doing what.  Routine for cowboys I gather, as they do canter change of leg at a very early stage of training.  Every course I have been on taught me something valuable, and at most of them me and the other participants were wailing "why haven't we been taught this before!"  The big trouble is that even these wonderful teachers didn't all agree on everything either!  So I am thinking of Mary Wanless, Heather Moffett, Deb Bennett.
		
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I can hardly believe that anyone needs to watch a DVD to learn how to feel which leg is doing what! I was taught that at a run-of-the mill RS in the late 60s/early 70s. And yes the teaching was good, excellent even, the ponies well-schooled and of varying types but the facilities were nothing to write home about. Admittedly, the local PC, where the RIs also taught, produced highly successful international competitors but I thought at the time that every RS was teaching similarly - and in fact, I still do, knowing that all the owners/instructors were involved with the local Hunt/PC.


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## FfionWinnie (7 December 2016)

Behavioural issues improve or indeed resolve quickly with the right rider. My speciality is nappers. I've had loads of nappers. All of them were sorted out within a few days with no reoccurrence while I had them.  You're either training your horse or untraining it. There's no in between. 

However my beloved cob recently started to the outsider's eye to be "napping". Couple of people including the vet told me to ride through it.  I know 100% she isn't nappy and there is something wrong. She has a muscle disorder which makes diagnostics harder. She initially puts her ears back, then refuses to go forwards and if I persist she will buck. She's not a bucker, nor is she a napper. 

So while her behaviour is similar to the first horses I mentioned it has a different cause. Theirs was mental and down to previous poor slow to react riders. The cob, not so. I'll know she is right or not, from her behaviour. She's 100% genuine. 

It's all down to our experiences and in mine, 9 out of 10 nappers were training issues. I would always try to train first but I feel sure I would know quite quickly if it were more than a training issue. To know that tho you have to be on their backs feeling their behaviour at the sharp end. Impossible to tell from the ground with another rider on because you can't feel.


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## tristar (7 December 2016)

the spanish s  vienna, actually breed their own horses, select the ones most suitable and train them from scratch, this must close to the ideal.

Podhajsky left a great legacy in his training and book, the complete training of horses and rider, its only now i am starting to truly understand the wisdom of the man, one of the main principles is the methodical and humane way in which the training is undertaken

 jerez and la cadre noir de saumur each seem to produce riders that are recognisable by their style of riding, i favour the iberian school personally as the combination of superb riding with a horse bred for the purpose can be thrilling to say the least,

i was watching a really narrow, elegant, fit new forest pony and a girl of 13 warming up for a comp and i`ve never seen a pony and rider work to such a high standard, they were trained by an instructor from saumur who was competing there at the same time, it was a million miles from the fat lazy, unresponsive ponies that live on the verge of lami, and shows it can be done, it does happen, its like breaking through to another layer of reality.


n


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## tristar (7 December 2016)

should be le cadre noir sorry


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## Cortez (7 December 2016)

tristar said:



			the spanish s  vienna, actually breed their own horses, select the ones most suitable and train them from scratch, this must close to the ideal.

Podhajsky left a great legacy in his training and book, the complete training of horses and rider, its only now i am starting to truly understand the wisdom of the man, one of the main principles is the methodical and humane way in which the training is undertaken

 jerez and la cadre noir de saumur each seem to produce riders that are recognisable by their style of riding, i favour the iberian school personally as the combination of superb riding with a horse bred for the purpose can be thrilling to say the least,

i was watching a really narrow, elegant, fit new forest pony and a girl of 13 warming up for a comp and i`ve never seen a pony and rider work to such a high standard, they were trained by an instructor from saumur who was competing there at the same time, it was a million miles from the fat lazy, unresponsive ponies that live on the verge of lami, and shows it can be done, it does happen, its like breaking through to another layer of reality.


n
		
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SRS use de la Guerinier's book as a basis for their training, as do the Royal School in Jerez. Your example of the kid on the NF pony proves the point - good riding/training comes from good instruction. Bad riding & training comes from......?


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## Goldenstar (7 December 2016)

The complete training of the horse and riders is my horsey bible .
I have been reading it since I was seventeen it's either in the kitchen or by my bed .
I think it's were my emphasis on system comes from.
I need a new copy mine has about had it .


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## Goldenstar (7 December 2016)

Cortez said:



			SRS use de la Guerinier's book as a basis for their training, as do the Royal School in Jerez. Your example of the kid on the NF pony proves the point - good riding/training comes from good instruction. Bad riding & training comes from......?
		
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Well I suppose your thinking of bad training but I would add no training as well people get a horse and it's cheaper and easier ( because the old type riding schools have restricted in numbers so much ) than learning the right way .


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## Mule (7 December 2016)

Hello can you tell me how you retrain napping?  I have one that can be quite nappy but you can't use a whip because he will rear .



FfionWinnie said:



			Behavioural issues improve or indeed resolve quickly with the right rider. My speciality is nappers. I've had loads of nappers. All of them were sorted out within a few days with no reoccurrence while I had them.  You're either training your horse or untraining it. There's no in between. 

However my beloved cob recently started to the outsider's eye to be "napping". Couple of people including the vet told me to ride through it.  I know 100% she isn't nappy and there is something wrong. She has a muscle disorder which makes diagnostics harder. She initially puts her ears back, then refuses to go forwards and if I persist she will buck. She's not a bucker, nor is she a napper. 

So while her behaviour is similar to the first horses I mentioned it has a different cause. Theirs was mental and down to previous poor slow to react riders. The cob, not so. I'll know she is right or not, from her behaviour. She's 100% genuine. 

It's all down to our experiences and in mine, 9 out of 10 nappers were training issues. I would always try to train first but I feel sure I would know quite quickly if it were more than a training issue. To know that tho you have to be on their backs feeling their behaviour at the sharp end. Impossible to tell from the ground with another rider on because you can't feel.
		
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## fattylumpkin (7 December 2016)

Just to add some meandering thoughts I've had while following this thread, I think part of the problem stems from how we view our horses these days as opposed to just a few decades ago. Previously, almost all horses were classed as some type of working horse, and in a working horse individualism was not something desirable, but something which needed to be repressed if a dray or hackney carriage horse was to put in 12 hours of solid labour without a whiff of protest. They were a work tool first. A workman would look after a horse (ideally) the same as any other equipment; see that its needs are met and maintain and care for it so that it could do its job properly. A very simple equation. The physical needs were met, therefore refusal to work when the time came was seen as behavioral and dealt with accordingly.

Nowadays it's popular to see horses as individuals with their own unique needs and wishes. We spend a lot of time and labour catering to our horses as individuals, and also a truck ton of money. There are hundreds of different philosophies and what is best or 'natural' for the horse. How to care for and maintain a horse so it can work is therefore a heck of a lot more complicated than it was before. We even try to cater to what we know or imagine the horse likes or dislikes. So when problems happen and a horse refuses to work, there's a huge fuzzy grey area between physical and behavioral which didn't exist before.

I'd say that as a result, people have become more inclined to blame the horse's refusal on something physical because it's the more concrete concept of the two to deal with (just chuck money at the problem until it goes away) and because there's always someone selling a commercial solution to every physical problem with horses you can name. Behavioral problems can only be dealt with via experience and knowledge, and those are hard to come by these days.

*Continues prattling at a soft drone until everyone passes out*


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## ycbm (7 December 2016)

^^^  Like


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## HufflyPuffly (7 December 2016)

FfionWinnie said:



			Behavioural issues improve or indeed resolve quickly with the right rider. My speciality is nappers. I've had loads of nappers. All of them were sorted out within a few days with no reoccurrence while I had them.  You're either training your horse or untraining it. There's no in between. 

However my beloved cob recently started to the outsider's eye to be "napping". Couple of people including the vet told me to ride through it.  I know 100% she isn't nappy and there is something wrong. She has a muscle disorder which makes diagnostics harder. She initially puts her ears back, then refuses to go forwards and if I persist she will buck. She's not a bucker, nor is she a napper. 

So while her behaviour is similar to the first horses I mentioned it has a different cause. Theirs was mental and down to previous poor slow to react riders. The cob, not so. I'll know she is right or not, from her behaviour. She's 100% genuine. 

It's all down to our experiences and in mine, 9 out of 10 nappers were training issues. I would always try to train first but I feel sure I would know quite quickly if it were more than a training issue. To know that tho you have to be on their backs feeling their behaviour at the sharp end. Impossible to tell from the ground with another rider on because you can't feel.
		
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mule said:



			Hello can you tell me how you retrain napping?  I have one that can be quite nappy but you can't use a whip because he will rear .
		
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Would also be interested in your thoughts on napping too as baby horse is nappy minded .


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## Mule (7 December 2016)

It's true that working horses are less pampered. Riding school horses are easy to manage and don't seem to have strong opinions. They still have to work for their keep though. They don't get the individual attention either. Crucially they aren't kept if they don't stay sound.

 Before horses were used for leisure I'd imagine people were quicker to pts when the horse wasn't sound.They weren't as likely to get attached to them as we are nowadays. Mabey that's an explanation for it.


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## little_critter (7 December 2016)

milliepops said:



			It's easier for some people to call in a professional (saddle fitter/vet/farrier/physio etc) and hand over a problem than it is to put hours and hours of work and self examination in to improve their riding.
I think that's the thing, it really does take effort to learn how to ride, and it's something that we all have to continue to put effort into, every time we sit on a horse.  Progress can be slow and painful   Once you acknowledge that it's kind of easier to come to terms with!

I think we owe it to horses to make sure they are fit, well, comfortable and able to perform. After that, common things are common - I think most behavioural issues are training/handling related. Some stem from the horse's character but I'd say most are inadvertently created by owners. 
 My dressage trainer often remarks of napping horses that "it can't only have kissing spines by the gate" 

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I've spent thousands trying to get to the bottom of my girl's planting issue (with vets and physios). At the same time I was super critical of my own riding to ensure there was nothing I was doing to cause the behaviour.
Unfortunately it seems I was following a style of riding that was not benefitting my horse, so while I was doing my best to improve...I was actually heading down the wrong path.
I have recently switched instructor, the riding style taught is different (not saying better / worse...just a different aim) and the improvement in my horse was almost instant.
It can be very difficult to work out what the cause is and sometimes even trying to do the right thing is still the wrong thing!


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## milliepops (7 December 2016)

little_critter said:



			I have recently switched instructor, the riding style taught is different (not saying better / worse...just a different aim) and the improvement in my horse was almost instant.
It can be very difficult to work out what the cause is and sometimes even trying to do the right thing is still the wrong thing!
		
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Glad you're getting some good results after all that heartache 
Sometimes it does all come down to experience, doesn't it?  A very experienced horse(wo)man will have a library of gazillions of styles or techniques built up over the years.  I think you need to be quite humble as a rider to remain open to new ideas and build up your own library... every day is a school day with horses.  

It's funny, I ended up watching a talk with Monty Roberts at YHL this year, not intentionally, we just strolled by and stopped a while to listen.  He said that he had 'his way' and that was the only way UNTIL he saw someone else do something differently that worked better, and then he adopted that to be 'his way'.  So his way was always evolving. Paraphrased but that was the gist of it.  I think there are nuggets of wisdom to be picked up all over the place, won't always apply to the horse you are riding at the moment but always handy to stuff into the memory bank!


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## Orangehorse (7 December 2016)

Pearlsacarolsinger said:



			I can hardly believe that anyone needs to watch a DVD to learn how to feel which leg is doing what! I was taught that at a run-of-the mill RS in the late 60s/early 70s. And yes the teaching was good, excellent even, the ponies well-schooled and of varying types but the facilities were nothing to write home about. Admittedly, the local PC, where the RIs also taught, produced highly successful international competitors but I thought at the time that every RS was teaching similarly - and in fact, I still do, knowing that all the owners/instructors were involved with the local Hunt/PC.
		
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That was really good teaching then, as I wasn't even aware of trot diagonals until I was an adult rider and trying to do a dressage test, let alone asking for canter when the legs are in the right place.  It was always give the canter aid and hope for the best!  Later on I found it easier to teach walk to canter as it gave me more time to sort out the correct timing of the aids!

My early riding was with the Pony Club, hunting and gymkhana and only the people in teams were ever given special instruction.


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## oldie48 (7 December 2016)

I couldn't agree more with this. I asked one of the people I train with how he had developed his "feel" because it's something I struggle with. Was it natural or had it come from training? He's been around horses for 50  years or so, when young worked on a breaking and dealing yard, evented and has trained horses up to GP. None of his horses have been world beaters but they are all very correctly trained and I know the competing is very secondary to the training. He said he'd watched lots of excellent riders over the years and he'd go home and try their methods with his own horses, when it worked he'd refine it and it became another tool in his toolbox. 
The average pleasure/leisure rider doesn't have the opportunity to do this as they are not working with horses in the same way so they have to rely on having trainers who can help them build their own toolbox. The big problem is it's only when you have more experience that you can start to sift the good trainer from the bad or when a problem doesn't resolve and you are forced to try elsewhere out of desperation. Inexperienced riders don't know what they don't know and tbh I think you need quite a lot of competence and understanding to read the books of the masters and start to put their principles into practice.



milliepops said:



			Sometimes it does all come down to experience, doesn't it?  A very experienced horse(wo)man will have a library of gazillions of styles or techniques built up over the years.  I think you need to be quite humble as a rider to remain open to new ideas and build up your own library... every day is a school day with horses.  

It's funny, I ended up watching a talk with Monty Roberts at YHL this year, not intentionally, we just strolled by and stopped a while to listen.  He said that he had 'his way' and that was the only way UNTIL he saw someone else do something differently that worked better, and then he adopted that to be 'his way'.  So his way was always evolving. Paraphrased but that was the gist of it.  I think there are nuggets of wisdom to be picked up all over the place, won't always apply to the horse you are riding at the moment but always handy to stuff into the memory bank!
		
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## Cortez (7 December 2016)

oldie48 said:



			I couldn't agree more with this. I asked one of the people I train with how he had developed his "feel" because it's something I struggle with. Was it natural or had it come from training? He's been around horses for 50  years or so, when young worked on a breaking and dealing yard, evented and has trained horses up to GP. None of his horses have been world beaters but they are all very correctly trained and I know the competing is very secondary to the training. He said he'd watched lots of excellent riders over the years and he'd go home and try their methods with his own horses, when it worked he'd refine it and it became another tool in his toolbox. 
The average pleasure/leisure rider doesn't have the opportunity to do this as they are not working with horses in the same way so they have to rely on having trainers who can help them build their own toolbox. The big problem is it's only when you have more experience that you can start to sift the good trainer from the bad or when a problem doesn't resolve and you are forced to try elsewhere out of desperation. Inexperienced riders don't know what they don't know and tbh I think you need quite a lot of competence and understanding to read the books of the masters and start to put their principles into practice.
		
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This is a very good observation>>>

BUT...where are all the experienced people to help all the not-so-experienced ones? They used to be called instructors, but that title seems to have been misapropriated by people with "qualifications": they can still be found in abundance in some places (not generally the British Isles).


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## oldie48 (7 December 2016)

But they don't just need to be really experienced, they need good communication skills so they can translate what they do with feel into what initially will be quite a mechanical movement for most novices, have the energy and enthusiasm to help riders deal with the setbacks that we all experience, know instinctively when to push for more and when to be more cautious, be totally impervious to the cold, rain and wind and for many riders be "cheap". It's hardly surprising there are so few really good people around and that many struggle to make a decent living, it's a tough job! Just like there are many people who are unwilling to pay for the work that goes into an established horse, there are those who are unwilling to pay for decent training.



Cortez said:



			This is a very good observation>>>

BUT...where are all the experienced people to help all the not-so-experienced ones? They used to be called instructors, but that title seems to have been misapropriated by people with "qualifications": they can still be found in abundance in some places (not generally the British Isles).
		
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## PaddyMonty (7 December 2016)

oldie48 said:



			He said he'd watched lots of excellent riders over the years and he'd go home and try their methods with his own horses, when it worked he'd refine it and it became another tool in his toolbox. 
The average pleasure/leisure rider doesn't have the opportunity to do this
		
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They have more opportunity than you might think.
I spend as much (if not more) time watching people ride as I do actually riding. At competitions, at yard, on the net. It doesn't have to be someone riding well. Just looking at the interaction between horse and rider, picking up on what each is doing, what is the cause and effect etc and then thinking 'what could they try'
Engaging the brain, thinking about action and reaction is a very powerful tool.


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## teapot (7 December 2016)

oldie48 said:



			But they don't just need to be really experienced, they need good communication skills so they can translate what they do with feel into what initially will be quite a mechanical movement for most novices, have the energy and enthusiasm to help riders deal with the setbacks that we all experience, know instinctively when to push for more and when to be more cautious, be totally impervious to the cold, rain and wind and for many riders be "cheap". It's hardly surprising there are so few really good people around and that many struggle to make a decent living, it's a tough job! Just like there are many people who are unwilling to pay for the work that goes into an established horse, there are those who are unwilling to pay for decent training.
		
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I think communication is key for a good coach/trainer/instructor. They can be one of the best in the world but if they can't communicate their lessons will never ever be as good imho. My new one is experienced, BHS by qualifications (but happy to rip the system apart), teaches well, and communicates in a way that suits how I think and ride. It probably helps that we both have the same sense of humour - not sure doing Lord Flashheart impressions down the long side would work for every client she has :wink3:  She's also got the patience but right level of sympathy/kick up the backside for when things go wrong, like they did the other week.

Are my lessons cheap? By riding school standards, no, but she's worth every single penny.


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## oldie48 (7 December 2016)

What I do find very useful is watching lessons because to some extent there's a running commentary of what is going on tbh I can watch a test for eg and could tell you if the horse is going well etc and probably wouldn't be that far off the mark with scoring but I'd struggle to tell you what the rider is doing wrong or right unless it was very obvious, I think it's the more subtle aids that the less experienced rider struggles with, but I take your point. I have my horse ridden by a "good" rider on a regular basis and because we talk about what she's doing and why, I am getting better at reading what's going on but it is a skill that I am having to develop. What I think I'd like to do more is to video my training, I find that a very powerful tool.



PaddyMonty said:



			They have more opportunity than you might think.
I spend as much (if not more) time watching people ride as I do actually riding. At competitions, at yard, on the net. It doesn't have to be someone riding well. Just looking at the interaction between horse and rider, picking up on what each is doing, what is the cause and effect etc and then thinking 'what could they try'
Engaging the brain, thinking about action and reaction is a very powerful tool.
		
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## blitznbobs (7 December 2016)

In my experience sorting napping is about predicting when it will happen and riding positively prior to the nap - however not using a whip because the horse might tear is letting the horse train you. Think about it . Smack with the whip, rear , then don't use whip again you've told the horse that is what you want ... Or trained the horse that if it tears you'll back off it... I tend to smack horses on the head when they rear  (with my hand) and then ride forward again... But if a horse is moving forward it can't rear.


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## milliepops (7 December 2016)

PaddyMonty said:



			They have more opportunity than you might think.
I spend as much (if not more) time watching people ride as I do actually riding. At competitions, at yard, on the net. It doesn't have to be someone riding well. Just looking at the interaction between horse and rider, picking up on what each is doing, what is the cause and effect etc and then thinking 'what could they try'
Engaging the brain, thinking about action and reaction is a very powerful tool.
		
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^^yep, I am the same. Before I had the means to get my horse out and about to lessons I watched EVERYTHING I could point my eyes at. And evesdropped all over the place. Lots of people are generous with their knowledge too, and enjoy talking about stuff with an interested person.
However, I do find that the more I know, the more I can _see_... but that's the same with everything I think, and you have to start somewhere. To an extent, it's learning the skill of self-study, but then also self analysis and self awareness, otherwise you can't apply what you are learning without a bit of assistance.



oldie48 said:



			What I think I'd like to do more is to video my training, I find that a very powerful tool.
		
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... speaking of which, when are you back in my neck of the woods? I will pop along and be cameraman if I can   PM me


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## oldie48 (7 December 2016)

Yes, I will, thanks!



milliepops said:



			... speaking of which, when are you back in my neck of the woods? I will pop along and be cameraman if I can   PM me 

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## Alexa123 (7 December 2016)

It's not ONLY about trainers though, is it. , I had my first glimpse of 'the light' when I finally got the chance to ride a well-trained horse. It was both an epiphany and a shock  when I realised just how long I had been doing it all wrong. Since then, I have come to realise that some horses really do help you to ride  'right' while others just bring out your very worst. There's that old saying, 'Good horses make good riders'.


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## oldie48 (7 December 2016)

But it is about trainers, although some horses give you the right feel more easily than others, a really good trainer will help you get so much more out of, even, a very ordinary horse. Sadly most pleasure/leisure riders never have the experience of riding a horse that is really "through" When you do, it becomes very addictive (or it is at least for me). When a horse is through and light and on the aids, riding seems so much easier but it's the getting there! That's why we need the "toolbox".



Alexa123 said:



			It's not ONLY about trainers though, is it. , I had my first glimpse of 'the light' when I finally got the chance to ride a well-trained horse. It was both an epiphany and a shock  when I realised just how long I had been doing it all wrong. Since then, I have come to realise that some horses really do help you to ride  'right' while others just bring out your very worst. There's that old saying, 'Good horses make good riders'.
		
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## FfionWinnie (7 December 2016)

mule said:



			Hello can you tell me how you retrain napping?  I have one that can be quite nappy but you can't use a whip because he will rear .
		
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AlexHyde said:



			Would also be interested in your thoughts on napping too as baby horse is nappy minded .
		
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I probably can't to be honest. I've tried to do it on here before and it didn't work lol.  I wouldn't encourage anyone to try what I am trying to explain as I don't think it's possible for me to explain it entirely -  it's more of a doing than a saying thing. 

Essentially I have the battles on the ground on the long reins first. That means if they are inclined to stand up you haven't got to sit on them while they are doing it. I would deliberately encourage them to nap by creating something they didn't want to pass or by turning them back for home several times in the same place if necessary to get the behaviour on the long lines so I could fix it. The trouble is if you aren't quick enough to react on the long lines then you aren't going to fix it you're going to make it worse. 

Anyway once I've had some epic battles and won so that they go forwards obediently into any situation, I'll get on. Usually have to have the same battles again but because I've already won them from the ground (which is safer and gives you superiority over them because you can force them on) they give in a lot quicker. 

One thing you must always do is never let them turn round or win by going their way, so say they spin round half a turn anti-clockwise- they absolutely must go back the way they came. Too many people let the horse win that small battle which to the horse is massive. I also don't agree with backing them up they have to go forwards the way I want them to go whatever it takes. I've got some handy ditches at home and often have had a horse back it's self into one. That quickly cures them of thinking that is an option. It's also about pressure and release which they need taught on the ground too before you start so when you have your leg on saying go forwards it doesn't come off until they do. 

I don't use a whip really only sometimes use a soft rope. It doesn't matter what it looks like the key initially is forward movement. Then you can refine it.  

If it doesn't work then really it's down to my reaction not being quick enough. You have to be ready before they do it really and by it I mean the slightest move towards any kind of nap even like a slight drift that way. 

I can't explain it that well in the written word and there's a lot more to it but it's actually quite simple once you get into the thought process.


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## tallyho! (7 December 2016)

DirectorFury said:









Somewhat off topic here, but it's really really hard to find good instructors. I've paid £70ph to be basically told to saw on my horses mouth to get her head down (er, no, go away), I've travelled for two hours to someone different and been told the same! I've gone to local clinics organised with semi-big-names and they've all come back to the same thing - get the head down. There, ta da! An outline! And let's just ignore the fact you can't ask the horse do any sort of collection or extension because its arse is somewhere in the next county...

So, how do you find good instruction? How do you know it's good instruction before paying for or travelling to a lesson?
		
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Quite! How do you even know what is good instruction? What are your key measures? 

Is it that they have competed at a certain level and won? Is it the shape their horses are making and how high they can throw their legs in the air? Is it how many sponsors they have? I think these are what young riders aspire to. 

Do people still look at who they were trained by and what philosophy they follow? What about the how the horses are themselves? Do theses things matter?

I would look at the horses themselves and see who the trainers were trained by. Everyone follows a certain philosophy and even if they don't know it could be traced back if you know the history. 

Some good books to help you if you are looking for some depth would be to start with Sylvia Lochs books... from there you can go off on many tangents, in fact go off on them all.... you will enjoy the journey I'm sure.


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## ycbm (7 December 2016)

One thing you must always do is never let them turn round or win by going their way, so say they spin round half a turn anti-clockwise- they absolutely must go back the way they came.
		
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I think I'm understanding you FW?  You make them turn back the half turn clockwise?

I can see the point, but I've had equal success curing nappers by continuing the spin twice or three times in the direction the horse was going, until it's facing in the direction you want to go again.

I had an argument with a very expensive trainer who was telling me to bring my horse right because he was napping left.  He wasn't napping 'left' in his head, he was napping 'to the gate'. I knew if I attempted to drive him right, he would buck or rear. But if I turned him left three times and pushed him on, he ended up going where I wanted and he didn't, away from the gate.

My current horse used to spin left on the road, and if I attempted to turn him back right he would get his legs I such a muddle he might have fallen over. I cured him by continuing the spin, too. 

More than one way to skin a cat, I guess.


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## tristar (7 December 2016)

alexa hit it on the head for me, a horse that is constant in its balance, fluid  in its movement and dynamic at the same time is a revelation to sit on, its lets you sit how you know you should, because its doing its share of the work, 75 per cent the horse, the rest feels like you are being taken and just using refined aids, as opposed to trying to create something, and disturbing your seat.

the new forest pony i mentioned earlier trainer from saumur and ridden by a young girl, was in fact a stallion.


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## oldie48 (7 December 2016)

But surely the art of riding is being able to get the horse to that point and that is, at least for me, the biggest challenge. Mr B has the ability to be "just a bit special", he's not a world beater by any means but he's got good paces, is active and judges like him. He's not "push button" but with a decent rider he's a lovely ride. I can get on him once he's been "set up" and he's relatively easy but getting him there on my own, or even with a trainer's help, is more problematic. I used to think that you could buy a well schooled horse and it "did it for you", No, they don't and if they will for a while they will soon find you out but they are fantastic at teaching you.



tristar said:



			alexa hit it on the head for me, a horse that is constant in its balance, fluid  in its movement and dynamic at the same time is a revelation to sit on, its lets you sit how you know you should, because its doing its share of the work, 75 per cent the horse, the rest feels like you are being taken and just using refined aids, as opposed to trying to create something, and disturbing your seat.

the new forest pony i mentioned earlier trainer from saumur and ridden by a young girl, was in fact a stallion.
		
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## FfionWinnie (7 December 2016)

oldie48 said:



			But surely the art of riding is being able to get the horse to that point and that is, at least for me, the biggest challenge. Mr B has the ability to be "just a bit special", he's not a world beater by any means but he's got good paces, is active and judges like him. He's not "push button" but with a decent rider he's a lovely ride. I can get on him once he's been "set up" and he's relatively easy but getting him there on my own, or even with a trainer's help, is more problematic. I used to think that you could buy a well schooled horse and it "did it for you", No, they don't and if they will for a while they will soon find you out but they are fantastic at teaching you.
		
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That's why you need the lessons.  I've just bought the schoolmaster.  I need the coach to keep me learning everything the horse has to teach me. That is why I got him.


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## oldie48 (7 December 2016)

???? I think you may be missing the point of my earlier posts but never mind I'm sure it's said with "good heart". However, just for the record, I have the lessons and love every minute of them and they are keeping me poor but happy. I hope you enjoy your schoolmaster as much as I enjoy mine!



FfionWinnie said:



			That's why you need the lessons.  I've just bought the schoolmaster.  I need the coach to keep me learning everything the horse has to teach me. That is why I got him.
		
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## Mule (7 December 2016)

To blitznbobs
Thank you, that's really helpful. I just realised that when I anticipate a nap I don't ride positively enough. I end up trying to fix the napping instead of trying to stop it before it begins.


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## Mule (8 December 2016)

The long reins are a good idea. I'll try that  I've been doing ground work with him at the moment because he can plant sometimes when I lead him. I want to try and retrain him to go forward. I'd imagine that him not going forward when lead is related to him napping when ridden? 



FfionWinnie said:



			I probably can't to be honest. I've tried to do it on here before and it didn't work lol.  I wouldn't encourage anyone to try what I am trying to explain as I don't think it's possible for me to explain it entirely -  it's more of a doing than a saying thing. 

Essentially I have the battles on the ground on the long reins first. That means if they are inclined to stand up you haven't got to sit on them while they are doing it. I would deliberately encourage them to nap by creating something they didn't want to pass or by turning them back for home several times in the same place if necessary to get the behaviour on the long lines so I could fix it. The trouble is if you aren't quick enough to react on the long lines then you aren't going to fix it you're going to make it worse. 

Anyway once I've had some epic battles and won so that they go forwards obediently into any situation, I'll get on. Usually have to have the same battles again but because I've already won them from the ground (which is safer and gives you superiority over them because you can force them on) they give in a lot quicker. 

One thing you must always do is never let them turn round or win by going their way, so say they spin round half a turn anti-clockwise- they absolutely must go back the way they came. Too many people let the horse win that small battle which to the horse is massive. I also don't agree with backing them up they have to go forwards the way I want them to go whatever it takes. I've got some handy ditches at home and often have had a horse back it's self into one. That quickly cures them of thinking that is an option. It's also about pressure and release which they need taught on the ground too before you start so when you have your leg on saying go forwards it doesn't come off until they do. 

I don't use a whip really only sometimes use a soft rope. It doesn't matter what it looks like the key initially is forward movement. Then you can refine it.  

If it doesn't work then really it's down to my reaction not being quick enough. You have to be ready before they do it really and by it I mean the slightest move towards any kind of nap even like a slight drift that way. 

I can't explain it that well in the written word and there's a lot more to it but it's actually quite simple once you get into the thought process.
		
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## FfionWinnie (8 December 2016)

mule said:



			The long reins are a good idea. I'll try that  I've been doing ground work with him at the moment because he can plant sometimes when I lead him. I want to try and retrain him to go forward. I'd imagine that him not going forward when lead is related to him napping when ridden?
		
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Yes it's all connected. Read anything by Richard Maxwell and follow his methods for a happy well adjusted horse would be my advice.


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## FfionWinnie (8 December 2016)

oldie48 said:



			???? I think you may be missing the point of my earlier posts but never mind I'm sure it's said with "good heart". However, just for the record, I have the lessons and love every minute of them and they are keeping me poor but happy. I hope you enjoy your schoolmaster as much as I enjoy mine!
		
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I have no idea about your earlier posts there are 19 pages and I can't remember who said what.  I was simply responding to you saying the horse will soon "find you out" not sure why you've taken my post as an insult because it was not. 

Perhaps I should have said the right lessons. I've toiled away for years with some instructors and got no where and blamed myself. Now I've got two really good coaches and while every lesson is hard work I am learning, along with the horse who knows his job, more than I ever thought I could.


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## stencilface (8 December 2016)

I've no doubt that a combination of my horses type and my poor riding has led to many of our lamenesses. We've never had behavioural issues (unless you count an addiction to treats  )

But I've had lessons, I've had vets, I've had various bodyworkers. 11 years into owning this horse I finally feel like I've found the right way of doing things for him. Basically all the instruction I had in 8 years of being in the PC was total ****e. Thank goodness for hho in helping me find my current instructor, rockley, and my trimmer. The trimmer may have done more for my horse to start thr process despite not touching his feet yet!


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## HufflyPuffly (8 December 2016)

FfionWinnie said:



			I probably can't to be honest. I've tried to do it on here before and it didn't work lol.  I wouldn't encourage anyone to try what I am trying to explain as I don't think it's possible for me to explain it entirely -  it's more of a doing than a saying thing. 

Essentially I have the battles on the ground on the long reins first. That means if they are inclined to stand up you haven't got to sit on them while they are doing it. I would deliberately encourage them to nap by creating something they didn't want to pass or by turning them back for home several times in the same place if necessary to get the behaviour on the long lines so I could fix it. The trouble is if you aren't quick enough to react on the long lines then you aren't going to fix it you're going to make it worse. 

Anyway once I've had some epic battles and won so that they go forwards obediently into any situation, I'll get on. Usually have to have the same battles again but because I've already won them from the ground (which is safer and gives you superiority over them because you can force them on) they give in a lot quicker. 

One thing you must always do is never let them turn round or win by going their way, so say they spin round half a turn anti-clockwise- they absolutely must go back the way they came. Too many people let the horse win that small battle which to the horse is massive. I also don't agree with backing them up they have to go forwards the way I want them to go whatever it takes. I've got some handy ditches at home and often have had a horse back it's self into one. That quickly cures them of thinking that is an option. It's also about pressure and release which they need taught on the ground too before you start so when you have your leg on saying go forwards it doesn't come off until they do. 

I don't use a whip really only sometimes use a soft rope. It doesn't matter what it looks like the key initially is forward movement. Then you can refine it.  

If it doesn't work then really it's down to my reaction not being quick enough. You have to be ready before they do it really and by it I mean the slightest move towards any kind of nap even like a slight drift that way. 

I can't explain it that well in the written word and there's a lot more to it but it's actually quite simple once you get into the thought process.
		
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Thank you for trying to explain, it's much the same as I've done, her naps on the long-lines were always corrected and you're right they are not as big under saddle. She does it when she lacks confidence I think which as she's four is understandable, just don't want it to continue!

With the spin or turn back, Skylla was always turned back to the way she suppose to be going when on the lines, under saddle she is stopped and I spin her with the bend I want until she gives to the contact and the leg and stops trying to hump her back.


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