# Kicking out in canter



## Caramac71 (7 May 2015)

Sorry, a bit of a long post!

Daughters horse (rising 6, owned for almost a year) used to kick out at the trot/canter transition.  She came to us not having done very much at all and over summer they worked on canter in the school with the use of poles / jumps.  Horse loves jumping and didn't kick or buck if she had poles to focus on so we could progress the canter without making an issue of it.

We turned her away for a couple of months over winter, as she'd had a full on summer.  She came back into work with a much improved attitude until end of March when she had a real paddy over being asked to canter in the school.  Since then we have kept a detailed diary of what's been happening.

We kind of got to the bottom of the kicking out in transition, putting it down to her not liking the leg aid.  We had a period of improvement with a light aid, in fact she doesnt kick out on the transition any more, but for the last month or so she's started kicking out with the left hind once in canter.  To start with it was on both reins but now left rein canter is pretty normal, whereas right rein is getting worse.  Trainer says she is twisting herself so she's crooked (spine goes s-shaped) and then kicking out probably because she's so uncomfortable.  Leg yielding her out in canter improves this, once she's straight she instantly looks more comfortable.  She's better on a 20m circle and worse on the straight when going into/out of corners.

Never bucks/kicks out when cantering on hacks.  Never bucks/kicks on the lunge, with or without tack.  Never used to buck/kick if jumping but now does.  Seems to be better in a large arena.  Surface doesnt seem to make a difference as is the same in a sand/rubber school as she is in a small grassed schooling area.

She's had regular teeth, saddle and back checks.  She lives out and is field fed (nuts/chaff) - but we've been bringing in for feeds for the last 6 weeks to trial her on a low sugar/starch diet and given equishure in case this is an acid/ulcer related issue.

She seems to be in season for about 10 days every 20 days.  Have tried 2 mare supplements and think there is an improvement in her moods with the one she is now on.  She had been girthy to tack up and grumpy to groom, which is why we've looked at tummy/hormones - but currently she is in season and in the sweetest mood, happy to be groomed and tacked up we are now thinking that this may not be related to the canter issues.

Our back lady came out yesterday, she found a lot of tension in her back and left side.  Saddle fitted in February had been fitted too tight, different saddler refitted it last week and back lady agreed it was now a good fit.  But back lady thinks that although some of the tension is from the saddle fit and she was sore, that she is holding herself awkwardly along her left side (she's seen a video of her canter issues and thinks it is too extreme a reaction to be saddle related) and there must be something underlying.

I've got a vet appointment booked now in a couple of weeks (had to fit around vets availability and daughters GCSE exams) - so I was wondering if there was anything else the vet may ask for that we haven't covered?

And does anyone have any experience of anything similar?

It's so frustrating, she has come on so well in all other areas.  Her walk/trot work is lovely, she gets amazing scores in intro dressage classes, she is keen to jump, she seems happy in every other way.  It's just trying to pinpoint what her problem is with canter (and one rein in particular).


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## applecart14 (7 May 2015)

Personally I would appoint a credited veterinary physio therapist to have a look at the horse.  She is obviously telling you she is uncomfortable around the saddle area.  The fact that she only does it in canter would suggest to me that another muscle group is being used to the ones in trot and walk.  The physio will tell you which ones they are and work out how to treat given her symptoms.


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## Caramac71 (7 May 2015)

applecart14 said:



			Personally I would appoint a credited veterinary physio therapist to have a look at the horse.  She is obviously telling you she is uncomfortable around the saddle area.  The fact that she only does it in canter would suggest to me that another muscle group is being used to the ones in trot and walk.  The physio will tell you which ones they are and work out how to treat given her symptoms.
		
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Our back lady is a qualified physio and approved by my vets.  Her opinion is that there's either something going on in the left hind, or she is holding it to protect something in that region (eg ovaries).  She thinks the soreness from the saddle fit is not related to the canter.  So it was her suggestion to get the vet now, as all she is doing is relieving the muscle tension and not treating the cause.


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## Scatterbrain (7 May 2015)

If only they could speak and tell us where it's hurting eh?! She's certainly trying to tell you something is wrong. Horses often compensate through their backs due to hind limb problems. A good experienced equine vet would be my first port of call.


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## Clodagh (7 May 2015)

I thinik Scatterbrain has a point. My boy has arthritic changes in his hocks and he found it hard to canter in a circle. He used to kick out and actually turn his head to bite you, and is the most good natured horse. He hurts in bthe sacroiliac area because of the bad hocks. After hock injections he got much better, although I gave up jumping and cantering him in circles.


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## applecart14 (7 May 2015)

Caramac71 said:



			Our back lady is a qualified physio and approved by my vets.  Her opinion is that there's either something going on in the left hind, or she is holding it to protect something in that region (eg ovaries).  She thinks the soreness from the saddle fit is not related to the canter.  So it was her suggestion to get the vet now, as all she is doing is relieving the muscle tension and not treating the cause.
		
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Ahh, I see, okay fair enough.  I hope you get it sorted x


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## fuzzle (7 May 2015)

Hi, my horse started cow kicking when i was asking for canter, became reluctant to work, she ended up having back, teeth checked and hormonal examination and ovaries scanned all was clear!! final straw was a gastro scope and hey presto full of ulcers!!!! she was a fat shiney  horse and it was summer time so ulcers appear at anytime of the year!! she is fully treated and back to her normal happy self with no cow kicking at all xxxx


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## Caramac71 (7 May 2015)

fuzzle said:



			Hi, my horse started cow kicking when i was asking for canter, became reluctant to work, she ended up having back, teeth checked and hormonal examination and ovaries scanned all was clear!! final straw was a gastro scope and hey presto full of ulcers!!!! she was a fat shiney  horse and it was summer time so ulcers appear at anytime of the year!! she is fully treated and back to her normal happy self with no cow kicking at all xxxx
		
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Ulcers have been suggested by various people that have seen her,  so certainly something to consider. But I was under the impression it would be more likely for her to be kicking out with right hind if it were ulcer related?


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## old hand (7 May 2015)

Cam be a sign of rotated back pedal bones, I had one like that.  Shod to x rays short toe, and left heel to develop and the problem disappeared.  Or concussive laminitis, they do not like landing on their front feet so object and shift weight by kicking out.  If the canter is also stuffy I would have front feet checked thoroughly.  Mine started bucking out into and out of jumps too but did not do this to start with.  No response to hoof testers or flexions but was convinced he was actually lame as stride started short in trot and then loosened up so insisted on x rays.


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## McScheres (17 August 2021)

Caramac71 said:



			Sorry, a bit of a long post!

Daughters horse (rising 6, owned for almost a year) used to kick out at the trot/canter transition.  She came to us not having done very much at all and over summer they worked on canter in the school with the use of poles / jumps.  Horse loves jumping and didn't kick or buck if she had poles to focus on so we could progress the canter without making an issue of it.

We turned her away for a couple of months over winter, as she'd had a full on summer.  She came back into work with a much improved attitude until end of March when she had a real paddy over being asked to canter in the school.  Since then we have kept a detailed diary of what's been happening.

We kind of got to the bottom of the kicking out in transition, putting it down to her not liking the leg aid.  We had a period of improvement with a light aid, in fact she doesnt kick out on the transition any more, but for the last month or so she's started kicking out with the left hind once in canter.  To start with it was on both reins but now left rein canter is pretty normal, whereas right rein is getting worse.  Trainer says she is twisting herself so she's crooked (spine goes s-shaped) and then kicking out probably because she's so uncomfortable.  Leg yielding her out in canter improves this, once she's straight she instantly looks more comfortable.  She's better on a 20m circle and worse on the straight when going into/out of corners.

Never bucks/kicks out when cantering on hacks.  Never bucks/kicks on the lunge, with or without tack.  Never used to buck/kick if jumping but now does.  Seems to be better in a large arena.  Surface doesnt seem to make a difference as is the same in a sand/rubber school as she is in a small grassed schooling area.

She's had regular teeth, saddle and back checks.  She lives out and is field fed (nuts/chaff) - but we've been bringing in for feeds for the last 6 weeks to trial her on a low sugar/starch diet and given equishure in case this is an acid/ulcer related issue.

She seems to be in season for about 10 days every 20 days.  Have tried 2 mare supplements and think there is an improvement in her moods with the one she is now on.  She had been girthy to tack up and grumpy to groom, which is why we've looked at tummy/hormones - but currently she is in season and in the sweetest mood, happy to be groomed and tacked up we are now thinking that this may not be related to the canter issues.

Our back lady came out yesterday, she found a lot of tension in her back and left side.  Saddle fitted in February had been fitted too tight, different saddler refitted it last week and back lady agreed it was now a good fit.  But back lady thinks that although some of the tension is from the saddle fit and she was sore, that she is holding herself awkwardly along her left side (she's seen a video of her canter issues and thinks it is too extreme a reaction to be saddle related) and there must be something underlying.

I've got a vet appointment booked now in a couple of weeks (had to fit around vets availability and daughters GCSE exams) - so I was wondering if there was anything else the vet may ask for that we haven't covered?

And does anyone have any experience of anything similar?

It's so frustrating, she has come on so well in all other areas.  Her walk/trot work is lovely, she gets amazing scores in intro dressage classes, she is keen to jump, she seems happy in every other way.  It's just trying to pinpoint what her problem is with canter (and one rein in particular).
		
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Hi. Did you find the cause of your ponies kicking out? You have just described our pony perfectly!


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## McScheres (17 August 2021)

Hi did you find out the cause of your ponies kicking out? You have just described our pony perfectly!


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## Caramac71 (18 August 2021)

McScheres said:



			Hi did you find out the cause of your ponies kicking out? You have just described our pony perfectly! 

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hi, yes we did eventually but it’s taken a few years!

Long story short, vet investigation found arthritis in her facet joints T16-18 and sprain to supraspinous ligament. However we felt these were the result of something underlying that hadn’t been diagnosed rather than the cause of her issues.

After several years of unsuccessful treatment and rehab, she was seen by Tom Beech the osteopathic vet. He found that her right ovary was enlarged and too far forward (previous vet scans on her ovaries had not suggested this) and he also felt that her symptoms suggested hind gut issues.

He’s been treating her now for about 3 years and she’s gone to unrideable to back in full work.

She requires careful management, she’s had relapses but these seem to be caused by gut issues (too much grass, worms, etc). She’s very sensitive but we are overjoyed by her progress.


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## IrishMilo (18 August 2021)

Caramac71 said:



			hi, yes we did eventually but it’s taken a few years!

Long story short, vet investigation found arthritis in her facet joints T16-18 and sprain to supraspinous ligament. However we felt these were the result of something underlying that hadn’t been diagnosed rather than the cause of her issues.

After several years of unsuccessful treatment and rehab, she was seen by Tom Beech the osteopathic vet. He found that her right ovary was enlarged and too far forward (previous vet scans on her ovaries had not suggested this) and he also felt that her symptoms suggested hind gut issues.

He’s been treating her now for about 3 years and she’s gone to unrideable to back in full work.

She requires careful management, she’s had relapses but these seem to be caused by gut issues (too much grass, worms, etc). She’s very sensitive but we are overjoyed by her progress.
		
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That's a good outcome. My horse used to do exactly what yours was doing and had hock spavin. Was the enlarged ovary removed/if not how is it managed?


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## Caramac71 (18 August 2021)

IrishMilo said:



			That's a good outcome. My horse used to do exactly what yours was doing and had hock spavin. Was the enlarged ovary removed/if not how is it managed?
		
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He was able to manipulate it (under sedation) and since then we’ve managed her on high doses of mare supplements. She’s always been quite mareish but her hormones do seem to have settled a bit as she got older.

It was an option (if she didn’t improve) to our her on regumate but fortunately we didn’t need to do this.

In all honesty I think she is far more affected by hind gut as whenever she relapses we are able to identify a gut related cause rather than it being hormonal.


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## McScheres (19 August 2021)

IrishMilo said:



			That's a good outcome. My horse used to do exactly what yours was doing and had hock spavin. Was the enlarged ovary removed/if not how is it managed?
		
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Can I ask how you treated the hindgut issue? I have just started treating ours for ulcers but we are in N.Z and currently in lockdown so I can’t get her scoped as it’s not classed as essential. She is booked to see the osteopath as soon as we are give the go ahead. We also tried Regumate which made no difference.


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## ycbm (19 August 2021)

McScheres said:



			Can I ask how you treated the hindgut issue? I have just started treating ours for ulcers but we are in N.Z and currently in lockdown so I can’t get her scoped as it’s not classed as essential. She is booked to see the osteopath as soon as we are give the go ahead. We also tried Regumate which made no difference.
		
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Sucralfate is the gold standard for treatment I think.  If it's legal to import in NZ , (it's not in the UK), then Abler.com sell it


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## Caramac71 (19 August 2021)

McScheres said:



			Can I ask how you treated the hindgut issue? I have just started treating ours for ulcers but we are in N.Z and currently in lockdown so I can’t get her scoped as it’s not classed as essential. She is booked to see the osteopath as soon as we are give the go ahead. We also tried Regumate which made no difference.
		
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We use Equishure for hind gut and we adjust dosage according to her needs. We also find Protexin Quick Fix is beneficial at times of stress.

Additionally she has milk thistle as this supports digestive system and hormones.

She’s fed low sugar/ low starch feed (chaff, nuts and balancer when required). Any treats she gets are no sugar although she does get the odd carrot!

If you can’t get equishure you could try bicarbonate of soda and oil, although I can’t remember the ratios. We used to give this as it works out far cheaper but it’s not as palatable and she stopped eating so we had to change.


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