# Nobivac l4 side effects?



## Beausmate (10 July 2014)

Has anyone's dog experienced side effects as a result of this vaccine?


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## Bellasophia (11 July 2014)

I looked this up on an Italian vet site...here is a summary of possible side effects..
After vaccine the dog may have a slight rise in temp,1c ,for a few days.
Puppies may be less active,and without much appetite.
Injection site may show a slight swelling.this should subside within two weeks.
 Hope this helps.



Dopo la vaccinazione e&#768; possibile registrare un lieve aumento della temperatura corporea temporaneo (&#61603; 1°C) per pochi giorni e i cuccioli possono mostrarsi meno attivi e/o piu&#768; inappetenti. Sul sito dell&#8217;iniezione e&#768; possibile riscontrare un piccolo gonfiore temporaneo che scompare o si riduce entro due settimane dalla vaccinazione. Inoltre, puo&#768; anche verificarsi una reazione allergica occasionale, temporanea, acuta (a breve termin


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## Dizzydancer (11 July 2014)

Is this the new lepto jab?? If so yes


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## Beausmate (12 July 2014)

Dizzydancer said:



			Is this the new lepto jab?? If so yes
		
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It is. The only info I've managed to discover, is what Bellasophia has posted (thank you!) but I'm interested in whether there are any other side effects.  Seems a bit odd that the only things recorded are the temperature rise and site reaction.  Either it's incredibly safe, it's too new for much to have come to light, or something else.


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## twiglet84 (12 July 2014)

Beausmate said:



			It is. The only info I've managed to discover, is what Bellasophia has posted (thank you!) but I'm interested in whether there are any other side effects.  Seems a bit odd that the only things recorded are the temperature rise and site reaction.  Either it's incredibly safe, it's too new for much to have come to light, or something else.
		
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We have been using it for nearly a year now and so far nothing serious, just the common side effects as above (lethargy and temp). 

x


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## Dizzydancer (13 July 2014)

My lab came down with immune mediated poly arthritis 5days post injection of this. Obviously
Can't prove the exact link but nothing else changed except that and my vet now doesn't want to inject him again so he is also concerned of a link.


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## twiglet84 (13 July 2014)

Dizzydancer said:



			My lab came down with immune mediated poly arthritis 5days post injection of this. Obviously
Can't prove the exact link but nothing else changed except that and my vet now doesn't want to inject him again so he is also concerned of a link.
		
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After the 1st or 2nd dose?x


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## Dizzydancer (13 July 2014)

He is 2 so it was his booster but as it was new jab this time his original symptoms started after first dose- his second was delayed as we treated what we thought was an upset tummy- this is also a poss cause for the diagnosis but less likely- so he had the second dose about 3-4weeks later than first


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## adrian.tinning (5 July 2016)

I have an 8 year old border collie he went for his normal vacs 4 weeks ago and they told me they had changed to this product. For 4 days after injection he had very bad diarrhoea including fouling the house for the first time in 8 years. He is not going back. A search on the internet reveals 120 dead dogs and 2000 bad reactions.


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## Bellasophia (5 July 2016)

I've always refused to give the lepto vacc,especially for my schnauzer ..there is a link I read stating schnauzers and pinchers should never have this vacc as they have a genetic component that puts them at risk for this particular vacc.
My vet keeps suggesting I give the lepto vacc when we go for our three yearly vacc boosters..but I always refuse. I read the links below and decided against this vacc for my dogs based on the info within..

Dr Jean Dodds doesn't recommend this vacc ..and dr Jordan includes a list of possible side effects here in this link..
(Dizzydancer.... polyarthritis is included in the list of documented reactions to this vacc)
http://dr-jordan.com/wp-content/upl....-Jordan-published-in-Dogs-naturally-2014.pdf

http://drjeandoddspethealthresource...76980/leptospirosis-dog-vaccines#.V3vpUpBXerU


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## Dizzydancer (6 July 2016)

Thanks bellasophia- because of the reaction my vet has agreed not to vaccinate my dog ever again as the risk is so high of another attack so we just have to be vigilant to symptoms. 
Just had my pup vaccinated and it was a very tough choice as to what to do- however I think in future I may find a new vet who does the old lepto still


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## Aru (7 July 2016)

Dogs with immune reactions tend to be dogs we avoid vaccinating unless we have to...not because the vaccination is causing the issue but because their bodies are producing an abnormal responce to the immune system being stimulated....and vaccines stimulate the immune system.
Titre testing if you need to is usualy the main recommendation...and only vaccinate at required is the rule.
autoimmune dogs benifit of protection:risk of serious side effects ratio for vaccines is massively different to a normal dog.
Most autoimmune issues are diagnosed in middle age animals. In the same way as many human autoimmune issues can crop up in middle age.
immune mediated issues are poorly understood in people and animals and vets will err on the side of caution and reduce potential risks as much as possible.

Every year thousands of animals get sick with a variety of different conditions.
Every year thousands of dogs are also vaccinated.
In many cases the subtle clinical signs of underlying conditions in animals are hidden until a peroid of stress....like a vet visit.
You have to be careful not to blame vaccinations and other treatments...flea/tick medications esp as they are given multiple times a year for illnesses based on timeframe alone. biology is not that simple.

yes vaccines are not without side effects....and yes in dogs with a prediposition to genetic autoimmune reactions they can be a trigger to those conditions..but thats not nessecarily a vaccine flaw.sadly these dogs ate often ticking timebombs for a immune crisis and the vaccine is the stimulus that breaks the camels back so to say.

Ive heard vaccinations  being blamed by owners for everything from diabetes to cancer...without any actual proof....
Basically timeframes arent everything and the stories online are often someones opinion and blamechasing as opposed to being factual information.

The l4 jab is a bacterial vaccination. they are less effective then the viral vaccines.... but the chances of serious side effects are low. most are transient and none life-threatening in the vast majority of animals who have reactions.some are unlucky nothing is without risk....but serious reactions are very very rare and deaths from vaccination are unheard of....personallu I've never heard of a proven death from any vaccination...reactions yes.deaths no.

Leptosperosis is life threatening if not detected and treated early.it requires weeks of antibiotic therapy(antibiotics that have a significantly higher risk of side effects then vaccines)to treat and is one of the few diseases that is zoonotic meaning it is possible to catch it from your infected animal...


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## Bellasophia (7 July 2016)

Hi aru..re.the fact that this vacc is less efficient and lasts just 6 months,was it introduced because the old vaccine was too invasive to the dogs immune system?

This link explained to me how the new vacc works .as a bacterin vaccine,but also says it doesn't cover all strains of lepto and the dogs showing milder symptoms of lepto may be overlooked just because the owner gave the vaccine and is over complacent..
http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/the-lepto-vaccine-why-vets-give-it-yearly/
 Honestly,I'm not happy that I live in the countryside and don't give this vaccine,but I still think it's not right for my dogs...I do monitor the dogs temps if they are ever unwell and would not overlook any illness with a wait and see protocol.
It's a damned if we do and a damned if we don't situation.

Can you comment on the link as I do value your opinion ,plus  do you have you any links on the schnauzer breed's genetic risk from this particular vaccine?


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## Aru (8 July 2016)

The l4 vaccine was introduced to cover more strains of lepto.
lepto has dozens of different strains that affect different species.
its also a different l4 in the eu versus USA as we have different strains specific to this continent.
the l2 vaccine only covers 2 strains and do not include the new one thats been reported in dogs in the eu.
These lepto vaccines L2 and l4 are bacterial vaccines.they have never been as good or as reliable as the viral vaccines..thats why we have to booster them yearly.How long they actually lasts seems to vary wildly from animal to animal so to provide maximum cover to the vast majority its a yearly booster.
They do not cause dogs to shed the disease as that article is claiming...in fact they are licensed to prevent shedding of the disease in urine.
They are not perfect far from it but in an area where lepto is endemic(meaning common in the environment)its all we have to try and minimise the risk.


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## Aru (8 July 2016)

That article also has my blood pressure through the roof as its so scaremongering and full of half truths mixed in with real information that its making me mad.
It seems to be very pro homeopathy and selling that agenda as well.You cannot treat potentially life threatening bacterial infections like lepto with homeopathy and then claim that soem infections were acute and always going to die....grrr.its responsive to antibiotics for christs sake and yes some will die even when treated with antibiotics as the lepto bacteria can damage the kidneys beyond repair....but that sort of scaremongering agenda makes me mad.and breath...gimme a few mins and il try and point out the true versus the lies.


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## Aru (8 July 2016)

Right... lepto is a bacterial infection.it shows a variety of mild clinical signs before progressing to serious clinical issues like kidney failure.
We rarely test for lepto when theres vague signs as initially it looks like hundreds of other diseases. we test for it when there is a high degree of suspecion.the tests arent always reliable that part of the article is true....as most vets tend to prioritise treatment and saving the dog over knowing exactly whats involved and we try and keep costs down..if I tested every dog with vague clinical signs for lepto I could make a bomb but I wouldnt help many dogs...
most dogs will have had antibiotics quite early on in their disease if infection in general is thought to be involved however so it can make testing difficult.

However any vet who has a dog with sudden kidney failure in front of them will have lepto as a potential differential as there are dozens of strains and we know even a vaccinated dog can catch it(like I said not the best vacc in the world but all we have).but as there are other causes of kidney failure..we investigate them to...and mostly prioritise keeping the dog alive while we try and find out whats going on.
We also know its zoonotic(humans can catch it from infected dogs)so dont want to catch it ourselves or for our staff to catch it so leptos always considered. Thankfully vaccinated dogs are unlikely to be shedding the strains they are vaccinated against even if they are fighting the infection so that means we wont always put them on quarantine and barrier nursing measures unless they come back a confirmed positive or theres a high degree of suspecion(loves swimming drinking from puddles/farm dog/areas after flooding etc)
However initally few vets are going to give antibiotics to every dog with a mild temperature as we are trying to prevent antibiotic resistance. 
we recheck and run diagnostics if they get worse...and yes that can sometimes cause issues in the seriously ill..but thats when we rely on owners to bring their animal back if they are deteriorating.


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## Aru (8 July 2016)

Hmm that article also seems to have sent 2 different articles to my phone.one is much longer and talks in a lot more detail about testing and how vaccines can cause cancer and gives examples of common canine cancers that they are blaming the lepto vacc for  so apologies if my rants havent made a lot of sense.
The link from this page is a little more mellow (embarassed face for an overreation to the other link)


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## Bellasophia (8 July 2016)

Hi aru..thanks for the detailed reply...I'm a traditional medicine  dog owner myself ,and really posted the article for the second part,rather than being pro homeopathy..sorry if it got you going! 
We are lucky to have a vet aboard who gives the time to get involved in posts,so again thankyou.
 We do see lepto here,but the vet says it's mainly the hunting dogs who get it..

We also have leishmania here and a  newvaccine for that too,but that's another can of worms!


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## twiggy2 (9 July 2016)

Your input here as always is very enlightening Aru. Thank-you


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## Aru (9 July 2016)

Thanks guys its nice to hear I'm not just pissing people off by giving a different perspective  Ive been on here a few years now so its always nice to be able to be helpful sometimes.
Sorry if my replies are a bit rambly sometimes I always try to put in to much information and its not always to the point.I do try to get to the point eventually  
I do also tend to forget how scary it is to have an ill dog for owners because its become a normal day to day occurance for me...reading forums is always good to put that in perspective and remind me to always think of the person on the other end of the lead as well.

Ps I actually find alternative medicine fascinating...acupuncture herbal remedies etc but sadly that does not extend to homeopathy which I still see as charlatons taking advantage of the placebo effect  so seeing people pushing it as a alterative to medicine does set me off a little... especially when its someone like a qualified vet who has been trained to know better.
Theres a reason more then a thousand vets have petitioned the rcvs to stop people using the veterinary mrcvs accreditation while practicing homeopathy....its not fair to take advantage of desperate owners like that when homeopathy is being discredited time and time again as a medical practice...and now im rambling again so il stop


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