# Do you reconise my boy (grey gelding) or did u own me ??



## samandcasper (18 December 2010)

**hope i can post here have posted in lost stolen and tracing** but havent got anywhere yet and am desprate...

brought my boy good few months back in a bad state cut scars and so under weight  i know nothing about him not even his name, so i called him capser, i was told few bits about him but they dont seem to be true and the 1st 4/5 pages of his passport are missing like ripped out, hes with me for life now no matter what his past or future with me, i would just lovwe to trace any old owners or loans or even someones friend who had this horse just to give me a little info on him... hes so well behaved and well mannerd on the ground and ridden alltho has a lil buck when he gets excited :') hes loving and affectionate and i love him with all my heart so not looking for info so i can sell him on, i want to know my babies past xx thanks for reading... 
*ANY INFO WOULD BE GREAT U CAN EMAIL ME AT ryansamandscott@hotmail.com*



















*MARKING ON HIS RIGHT SIDE*






*MARKING ON HIS LEFT SIDE*


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## Daisy2 (18 December 2010)

I dont know him but he looks like a lovely gent


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## clairefeekerry1 (18 December 2010)

sorry dont know him but what are those marks on his side? are they scars? looks like some kind of home attempt at a freezemark


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## samandcasper (18 December 2010)

Daisy2 said:



			I dont know him but he looks like a lovely gent

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 thank you xx


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## HayleyandBob (18 December 2010)

What did the person you bought him from tell you about him? 
x


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## tallyho! (18 December 2010)

Did someone just carve those markings out with a penknife or something?? I have honestly never ever seen anything like it before!!!

ETA: What a sweetie xx


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## samandcasper (18 December 2010)

i could do, the rest of the passport if compleatly empty pages with nothing on them at all...

i was told he was an 11-13 year old belgium warmblood, been there and done it all thats it lol not even a name the dealer told me he was free to good home in the horse and hound mag as he was going to die if no 1 took him as the ppl couldnt pay or have time for him no more... this was when i 1st got him


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## Roody2 (18 December 2010)

The first marking looks like an L. Did you get a medical history on him? And do you know how old he is?


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## Archiesmummy (18 December 2010)

He is a lucky horse to have found you and he looks a kind, appreciative chap.  I wish you a long and happy life together and hope someone can help you with his history.

Best wishes x


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## charmeroo (18 December 2010)

I'm afraid that I don't know him - but well done to you because he looks SO much better than your early photos!  I think that he will look really good! What you could do is clip a strip of hair off where he has the most markings and they might become a bit clearer.  You could then try Farmkey etc.  Good luck!


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## Dolcé (18 December 2010)

I remember looking at this on the other forum, at first look it looks like a loss of use brand but then if you look closely it has marks coming from it so could be some type of breed branding but not one I could identify.  I would suggest the passport you were given with him doesn't belong to him or has details of previous owners who do not want to be contacted about him.  I really wish you luck with this, and hope you get further than we did with one we bought with a 'dummy' passport. It may help to clip over the brand marks so that they can be seen more clearly (what can be seen is easy to read but is there more that can't yet be seen), you could try farmkey, although we found them unhelpful and very obstructive and may also be worth contact Defra direct, the bit that is responsible for passporting, we found them very helpful and got more info from them that farmkey just refused to give us, they also ordered farmkey to issue a correct passport for our horse.


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## samandcasper (18 December 2010)

clairefeekerry1 said:



			sorry dont know him but what are those marks on his side? are they scars? looks like some kind of home attempt at a freezemark
		
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yeah alot of people have said this as when i got him the scars were scabbing over (so could have been new) and where he loved his straw bed he was rolling all the time and opening them up slightly?? x


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## samandcasper (18 December 2010)

Roody2 said:



			The first marking looks like an L. Did you get a medical history on him? And do you know how old he is?
		
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*i havent a clue about him not nothing, my vet checked his legs and said they looked lovely and scanned him and he isnt microchipped but thats it and it didnt cross my mind to ask about his branding or marks on his back x*



Archiesmummy said:



			He is a lucky horse to have found you and he looks a kind, appreciative chap.  I wish you a long and happy life together and hope someone can help you with his history.

Best wishes x
		
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*thank you :') means alot xx*


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## ofcourseyoucan (18 December 2010)

if you clip the brands off and get hold of a brand book you might be able to trace him that way. or photo the brands and post them up someone might recognise them. i would say they are foreign brands by the shape of the 7 and the funny one at the beginning. could also be hungarian .. horse looks that type. good luck


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## samandcasper (18 December 2010)

hch4971 said:



			I remember looking at this on the other forum, at first look it looks like a loss of use brand but then if you look closely it has marks coming from it so could be some type of breed branding but not one I could identify.  I would suggest the passport you were given with him doesn't belong to him or has details of previous owners who do not want to be contacted about him.  I really wish you luck with this, and hope you get further than we did with one we bought with a 'dummy' passport. It may help to clip over the brand marks so that they can be seen more clearly (what can be seen is easy to read but is there more that can't yet be seen), you could try farmkey, although we found them unhelpful and very obstructive and may also be worth contact Defra direct, the bit that is responsible for passporting, we found them very helpful and got more info from them that farmkey just refused to give us, they also ordered farmkey to issue a correct passport for our horse.
		
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*yer i have been told it isnt loss of use as its not the correct way it would be, im going to call farmkey and defra and british horse socitey to see what help i can find, also a lady who had read and commented on my last post has been helping by calling few places and has a number for me... im not going to judge anyone who owned him before due to the bad state he was in as i have said before they did the right thing in the end by letting him go i just want info and would even keep contat with previous owners by mail and visits if they wanted to i just love him so much and would love to know more about him xx*


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## Dolcé (18 December 2010)

Looking at the state of him when you first got him, and what you put in your last post, I would suspect the pages have been removed from the passport to prevent anyone identifying the owners, perhaps the marks were put on him to 'throw off the scent' anyone trying to find out about him, he hardly looks like he was loved and cared for does he!  You have done really well with him, it is so maddening when you can't find out any history!


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## samandcasper (18 December 2010)

ofcourseyoucan said:



			if you clip the brands off and get hold of a brand book you might be able to trace him that way. or photo the brands and post them up someone might recognise them. i would say they are foreign brands by the shape of the 7 and the funny one at the beginning. could also be hungarian .. horse looks that type. good luck
		
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hi ya i have tried googling every possiable word to find brandings but havent got anything yet lol im gonna google a hungarian grey now see what i can find  thanks for that xx


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## samandcasper (18 December 2010)

hch4971 said:



			Looking at the state of him when you first got him, and what you put in your last post, I would suspect the pages have been removed from the passport to prevent anyone identifying the owners, perhaps the marks were put on him to 'throw off the scent' anyone trying to find out about him, he hardly looks like he was loved and cared for does he!  You have done really well with him, it is so maddening when you can't find out any history!
		
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yer i have thought this, i just cant see what they did this to him he is so prefect in every possiable way manner ridden with the kids my son is 6 and walks him across his massive field and he hasnt tried a single thing he loves to suck ur nose lol and give u kisses lets me hang of his head to cuddle him, i dont see what he has ever done to deserve that and its gut renching to know hes been so ill treated, the pics of when i 1st got him dont show the full extreme to it, when i went to view him and he took the rug of it caught my breath and cried sounds silly as i didnt even know him but i could see in is eye he was lovely xx


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## Roody2 (18 December 2010)

Just got this:
 "Polish foals born in a  national stud farm have a numerical brand under the saddle:
The right side is the number of stud farm.
The left side is the foal's number."

from here http://www.horsedata.co.uk/horse_brands.htm


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## samandcasper (18 December 2010)

ohhh i'll go have a look thanks 

thought i'd post this to show u all how he moves when ridden, excuse my s**t position i have been used to crazy horses kick them on and hold on for dear life lol casper is very well ridden and collected


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## Lila (18 December 2010)

STill no luck sam? You have done great with him chick i remeber seeing the pics of when you first got him, Ill be honest and say i was shocked but he has turned into a stunning boy and looks such a gent xx


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## Jayde87 (18 December 2010)

I must just say I admire you for taking on this horse. He was in very poor condition, and I have no doubts in thinking had someone as kind as you not taken him on, he wouldn't have lasted for much longer. Although I'm afraid I don't recognise him. By the state he was in, you'd be better off not getting in touch with his previous owner, they clearly do not know how to care for a horse. Well done to you x


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## samandcasper (18 December 2010)

Lila said:



			STill no luck sam? You have done great with him chick i remeber seeing the pics of when you first got him, Ill be honest and say i was shocked but he has turned into a stunning boy and looks such a gent xx
		
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no  nothing yet and thank you again it means alot thanks xx



Jayde87 said:



			I must just say I admire you for taking on this horse. He was in very poor condition, and I have no doubts in thinking had someone as kind as you not taken him on, he wouldn't have lasted for much longer. Although I'm afraid I don't recognise him. By the state he was in, you'd be better off not getting in touch with his previous owner, they clearly do not know how to care for a horse. Well done to you x
		
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thank you and i understand what ur saying they dont deserve to even look at him let alone be anywhere near him but i just would despratly love to know info on him xx


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## steadyeddy (18 December 2010)

What a lucky horse! Do hope you manage to find out all about him. Done a brilliant transformation with him! Good luck for the future.


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## KVH (18 December 2010)

Sorry, can't help you but just wanted to say a massive well done for taking him on and making him look so much healthier and happier!
Cannot believe someone could treat a horse in that way that he was, though sadly it happens so often.


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## finkle (18 December 2010)

Just want to add that your boy is adorable..he looks really kind and sweet. Their loss is definately your gain. You have turned him around. 

I was shocked when I saw the before pics..thank goodness that you both found each other!


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## Libbylou (18 December 2010)

If you have the passport with pages ripped out and its his original passports could you contact they passporting agency and ask them some details about him ??

Who is the passporting agency ?


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## Shilasdair (18 December 2010)

I understand why you want to find out about his past.
You have done wonders restoring him to health...and perhaps it's better if you just enjoy him for what he is; you may find out things that would trouble you more?
S


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## bigboyrocky (18 December 2010)

Sorry i dont know him, but i also wanted to say how well youve done with him. We need more people like you in the world to stop horses getting into this state  And im sure he couldnt care less how you ride, he's probably just appreciative that hes found you! Well done


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## thatsmygirl (18 December 2010)

Wont the dealer give you a number for the person he got the horse from? Or if you can narrow down the sort off time he was in horse hound, surely somebody on here keeps all their copies and could try and find the ad. Might be a starting point


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## samandcasper (18 December 2010)

thank you all so much... trust me if i ever win the lotto, i'd have a massive yard full of crulty case horses,i love it knowing i have helped.. the horse i had b4 was as bad as casper and hes now lovely (im not a dealer i just didnt get on with my old horse so sold him after 4 years he was a pacer and hated my yard and i wanted to show loclay and couldnt with rocky)

Libbylou its KWPN his passport i have emaild them (cant afford a phone call lol) i explained to them the situation and a lady messaged back and said whats his chip number but he isn't microchipped as when i had his bloodtests done i asked my vet to scan him and he didnt have any and then after saying tht i never got a reply?

Shilasdair, i have thought this aswell, i'd end up hunting them down and killing them if i was being told what had been done to him :'( just the basic would be nice

i didnt ask the dealer for detials he comes across as he wouldnt give it to me any way and he prob wont have the detials, im at my mums 2nigth but when i go home tom i will get it and have another proper look through (i only live next door ut the snow is mental and its cold lol and im in my pj's lol) xx


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## The Bouncing Bog Trotter (18 December 2010)

The KWPN people are fantastically helpful. If he isn't microchipped it may be that it is because he is a mature gentleman who was around before it was required. I'd email them again and ask them when microchipping became a requirement as that may help you 'date' him. Also try clipping his brand markings out to see if they become clearer and send a photo of the brands in the same email to the KWPN people - they may just be able to help.

They were fantastic with a horse on our yard that came from a dealer. He came with a Weatherbys passport saying he was a 10yold Irish TB but he was scanned while we had a vet on the yard and we got a chip number - to cut a long story short he is very well bred KWPN in his teenage years with a wonderful competition history and has now been issued with his rightful passport. 

Good luck with finding out more, it is possible to do it and enjoy your horse. Well done.


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## spotty_pony (18 December 2010)

Sorry, I haven't got any info about him but I just want to say well done for taking him on and you have done such a fantastic job with him! He looks so happy now!


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## Holly Hocks (18 December 2010)

How old does the vet think Casper is when they looked at his teeth?  He looks to me like he's been really well schooled in the past - just the way he carries himself - such a shame horses end up in the state he was when you got him.  Well done for taking him on and giving him a chance that he might not have had at life.  It's so much more rewarding knowing that you've managed to turn a horse's life around.  I hope you find some answers.


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## gingerthing (18 December 2010)

samandcasper said:



			thank you all so much... trust me if i ever win the lotto, i'd have a massive yard full of crulty case horses,i love it knowing i have helped.. the horse i had b4 was as bad as casper and hes now lovely (im not a dealer i just didnt get on with my old horse so sold him after 4 years he was a pacer and hated my yard and i wanted to show loclay and couldnt with rocky)

Libbylou its KWPN his passport i have emaild them (cant afford a phone call lol) i explained to them the situation and a lady messaged back and said whats his chip number but he isn't microchipped as when i had his bloodtests done i asked my vet to scan him and he didnt have any and then after saying tht i never got a reply?

Shilasdair, i have thought this aswell, i'd end up hunting them down and killing them if i was being told what had been done to him :'( just the basic would be nice

i didnt ask the dealer for detials he comes across as he wouldnt give it to me any way and he prob wont have the detials, im at my mums 2nigth but when i go home tom i will get it and have another proper look through (i only live next door ut the snow is mental and its cold lol and im in my pj's lol) xx
		
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Its still worth asking the dealer you know, he may come across reluctant to provide details but unless you ask you will never know!

He carries himself well in your video, get the impression someone somewhere has put alot of work into him at some point over the course of his life.


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## Minxie (18 December 2010)

Hey

Sorry I haven't got anything to add about your boy other than to say there is a definiately a wee place in heaven for you for taking him on and caring so well for him.  Full marks for sure.


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## Doncella (18 December 2010)

nativetyponies said:



			just gone back to your original thread in missing/info forum..

i stand by what i said there..

the 87 is, i'm sure, the year of his birth, making him 23 yrs old..

to the cackhanded "fresh" brand.. it is probably a meat horse brand...and the "lucky" chap was bought by one of the not-so-nice Dealers that tend to frequent this island..

it is a good money-maker for them to pop over to Holland/Belgium and buy from the meat queue's...this would explain his passport's missing pages..as it would be in there that he was destined for the Abattoir

He's a lucky chap...and i agree with Shils...just enjoy him..and look after him

He deserves it
		
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On the previous post in Trace/stolen,  I mentioned a story which had made H&H as a plea for identification of a piebald mare bought as a KPWN import.  It transpired that the mare was blind in one eye, was a great deal older than her passport and at some time had suffered broken ribs. She may have been an eventer who had suffered in a bad fall and gone through the meat markets only to fetch up here.
As I have said before this horse, whatever his history or breeding has now got the home he deserves and the before and after photographs are testimony to his owners devotion.


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## Doncella (18 December 2010)

KWPN then,excuse my ignorance I only recognise the initials TB.  Not detracting form the sincerity of the original post.


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## Serenity087 (18 December 2010)

OP, having owned a cruelty case and found out what had happened to her... I have to echo Shils..

Enjoy him.

Give him the best years of his life.

And when he's ready, let him go knowing that he once again knows the love of humans.

Because I still can't get my head round why someone would starve such a fabulous mare.  

What I found really hard was that I was able to trace my mares stud and a HHOer provided me with details of her breeders.
I never got in touch, because no breeder should know one of their foals ended up starving to death and ending up at a charity


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## samandcasper (18 December 2010)

nativetyponies
can't see what u mean by him being 23, his left branding says 78!! and on the right side it is a 35 next to the weird thing with the L in it.. i got him when it was hot and he has no coat at all when i bath him it shows it just the same but slight more clear its ( L ) 35 on the right side then on the left its 78 ??

rubyredshoes.. i will re email them the pics tom and ask about the age of microchipping  x

Holly Hocks, the dearler told me 11 and with out me saying anything i asked a vet to look and she said she cant be 100% sure but on what she knows around 11-13 and few well brained ppl on the yard have looked and said he isn't old as one has a 17 year old mare and his teeth are nothing like hers ?? and yer he rides lovely i have watch a friend riding him and i didnt want her to get off he looked amazing as soon as u ask him to canter his head is in with out u asking him,

and thank you to all others who commented on him looking well


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## samandcasper (18 December 2010)

ahhh yer i wrote 87 on the picture on that thread aswell but changed it i must have forgot to change it on the writing, if u look at the pic on this thread in page one u can see it says 78,,, i didnt mean my last comment back to you to sound like i was being rude as i wasn't


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## skewby (19 December 2010)

samandcasper said:



*MARKING ON HIS LEFT SIDE*





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??

Sound plausible to me OP.  I know you probably don't want to think he's that age but don't worry about it, he's clearly doing a lovely job for you and I for one am very glad he's with you, if only they could talk eh?  Enjoy and spoil him xxx


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## finnywinny (19 December 2010)

samandcasper

I have a parallel story to yours. I found a horse that was the answer to my dreams, a much needed complete confidence giver after a nasty riding accident. They guy who owned him was dodgy enough and the dealer he's brought him from even dodgier. i was told he was 13 and I loaned him for several months first, long story short his passport had been fiddled and he was in fact 19. Like you I could find nothing of his true past and also like Casper, my boy had at some point had a lot of professional work put into him. His body told a story of some previous accident, and he quickly began to show signs of arthritis in his front fetlocks. Despite all this I knew that he was my boy and I still bought him for £1,000 (it was that or leaving him in the hands of his careless, ignorant owner) so he came home with me and it has been the greatest love story of my life. I spent a frustrating year trying to find out more about his past but now its irrelevant, all I care about is giving my boy the best possible life and making his last years the best he's had. My relationship with him goes beyond words, he is wise and clever and funny and cheeky - and twice the weight he was when I found him. He is part of my being and I guess this is how it is for you - so as others have said, enjoy every minute of every day you spend with him. Like my boy he looks a gentle soul, he will teach you so much. XX


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## Katd66 (19 December 2010)

samandcasper said:



			hi ya i have tried googling every possiable word to find brandings but havent got anything yet lol im gonna google a hungarian grey now see what i can find  thanks for that xx
		
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If you can get pictures of the brandings clipped out I have contact details for Hungarian brandings. I had 2 Hungarian nonias' with brandings and they were able to trace breeding and history.


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## Katd66 (19 December 2010)

Also, do you have the passport number from the passport? If so they should be able to send you a duplicate.

Also the 78 could also be 7B. When I was working out my horses brands you have to think of all the possible combinations.  Good luck


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## Daisy2 (19 December 2010)

I have just had a look at your photos and he looks such a lovable chap. As far as age is concerned I would not worry because if he can do with ease what you ask and he maintains conditions with no stiffness and arthritis then he could probably go on for many many years to come.. age is only a number, my mare was retired at 16 due to arthritis, but my mates horse is 22yrs and still hunts.

I think you are both really lucky to have found each other, he s very hansome, I can see why you love him, I would be very proud, he has a wise look about him. You look utterly in love..


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## samandcasper (19 December 2010)

i wouldn't be bothered ig he was 23 or 103 as long as hes mine thats all that matters, he can still ride lovely vet hasnt found anything wrong with him so all is good, but i still cant understsand why people keep say 23 when its 78 so that would make him nearly 40 lol and there is no way a horse of that age and after a revolting life could bounce back so well as he has with me as u can see in the video he isnt lazy or sluggish hes quite up beat and forward going 

yer someone onmy yard said it looked like a B as i bath him and he was very slat and he had no winter coat,

Katd66 the pics was taken when he has a summer coat? now i cant see it because hes got all fluffy  and i dont have clippers lol

finnywinny,  ur story is lovely and wel done to u aswell xx

i will go and getthe passport in a min and see what i can fine but to be honest i havent a clue what i will be looking for including where to look for passport number as so many pages are missing xx


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## Charliepony (19 December 2010)

Could he be a Polish Warmblood? He looks very much like one.

Lovely boy, and you're so kind to give him such a good home!


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## Katd66 (19 December 2010)

samandcasper said:



			i wouldn't be bothered ig he was 23 or 103 as long as hes mine thats all that matters, he can still ride lovely vet hasnt found anything wrong with him so all is good, but i still cant understsand why people keep say 23 when its 78 so that would make him nearly 40 lol and there is no way a horse of that age and after a revolting life could bounce back so well as he has with me as u can see in the video he isnt lazy or sluggish hes quite up beat and forward going 

yer someone onmy yard said it looked like a B as i bath him and he was very slat and he had no winter coat,

Katd66 the pics was taken when he has a summer coat? now i cant see it because hes got all fluffy  and i dont have clippers lol

finnywinny,  ur story is lovely and wel done to u aswell xx

i will go and getthe passport in a min and see what i can fine but to be honest i havent a clue what i will be looking for including where to look for passport number as so many pages are missing xx
		
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The passport number is usually 15 numbers and on the first page and a few if the other pages.


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## LadyRascasse (19 December 2010)

polish WB are branded with the month and year they are born so in this situation (if correct) would make him july 1998, a 12 yr old. good luck with finding out info it is never easy.


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## samandcasper (19 December 2010)

right i have his passprot and i have this on the front of the passport but pages 1-2-3 and 4 are missing the 1st page when i open it its the outline of diagram???? and the passport place seems to lead to him being dutch??

it says on the right side.
a shied with a loin with a crown on top then under it is says
KWPN 
koninklijke vereniging 
warmbloed
paaedenstamboek
nederland      

then left side it says 

NL-PAARDENPASPOORT
NL- HORSE PASSPORT
NL-PASSEPORT POUR CHEVAUX
NL-PFERDEPASS


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## Katd66 (19 December 2010)

Does it have his name on the outline page?

Edit - stupid question really - im sure you have looked for that!  Just trying to think of ways which the passport agency could identify it!


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## samandcasper (19 December 2010)

Katd66 said:



			Does it have his name on the outline page?

Edit - stupid question really - im sure you have looked for that!  Just trying to think of ways which the passport agency could identify it!
		
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lol yer i have look but its ok ur only trying to help  the passport has a few scribbles of red pen on his diagram pics thats it i will upload a pic soon xx


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## JessandCharlie (19 December 2010)

So, that would make it a dutch passport, BUT (and I may well be talking utter poop) I had a Rheinlander, born in holland, with a German passport. So he may well be Polish 

This is so interesting!


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## samandcasper (19 December 2010)

JessandCharlie said:



			So, that would make it a dutch passport, BUT (and I may well be talking utter poop) I had a Rheinlander, born in holland, with a German passport. So he may well be Polish 

This is so interesting!
		
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*lol this is all such a pain in the ass  i think i might make a potion to make him talk may be quicker hahaha xx*


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## JessandCharlie (19 December 2010)

Haha. Wow, this is tricky, brb - I'm off to google


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## mbequest (19 December 2010)

It is definitely a KPWN passport. does it just say page 5 in the bottom left hand corner?  Are the brands labelled on the identity drawing and in the bottom right hand corner is there a stamp and signature of the vet?

It wouldbe very unlikely that a Ducth horse has been sent to either Poland or Hungary and been re-branded, they tend to only do it as foals.

I have to say that the L brand to me defo looks like a loss of use brand.  Do you mind if I ask who told you it wasnt done like they do it?


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## JessandCharlie (19 December 2010)

"My exposure to polish warmbloods:

In the seventies and beyond, truckloads of them passed through Germany on the way to France - for obvious reasons.
The barn my sister took lessons at frequently recieved polish horses for resale, reasonable prized mounts for the hobbiist.

I have not heard of any farms or breeders, so I guess - since polish is not one of the most spoke languageses in this world - try via the department of agricultur in Poland"

"Try this email address: agata.milnerowicz@interia.pl." Apparently this person speaks very good english and may be able to help if he's polish 

^^From another forum on a thread where somebody was trying to trace a polish warmbood. There is also a list of all the Polish National studs and their corresponding numbers. Don't know if that's any use.


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## JessandCharlie (19 December 2010)

From http://www.horsedata.co.uk/horse_brands.htm

You can't see the pic here but looks like the stag horns you boy has? Maybe?

Baden Wurttemburg:

Pferdezuchtverband Baden-Württemberg e.V.
Heinrich-Baumann-Straße 1-3
D-70190 Stuttgart
Tel: 0049-7 11 - 16 65 50   
Fax: 0049-7 11 - 1 66 55 20

Pferdesportverband Baden-Württemberg

The branding numbers on the horses left hindquarters are part of the life identity number of the horse. For example:

Life identity number: DE 473 73207 32 09
DE - Country of origin
473- Association within the country of origin (473 Baden-Württemberg, for horses born before 2000, 373)
73207- a random number
32 - branding number (random)
09 - Year of birth
The life identity number is unique for every horse.


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## mbequest (19 December 2010)

Jess, All German studbooks brand on the thigh, rather than the withers. IME, only polish, Hungarian, Czech or Farmkey will brand in that position.

I would assume in this instance that it is a case of the passport having pages removed to make it match the horse. Quite often the dutch ones come over without an identity drawing completed. Therefore the first few pages get ripped out, the drawing done in red pen by someone with half an idea and hey presto horse gets a new passport. Passport isnt legal but hey ho, the unsuspecting amateur owners arent to know that!!


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## JessandCharlie (19 December 2010)

Another thing (I'm nearly done, promise) is it looks almost like somebody's had a go at recreating the trakehner brand in a way. That is stag horns, but with no 'L' in the middle, and not quite the same. Google and have a look if you haven't already. The 'L' could be a stud's mark?

mbe, quite right. I'm being a blonde


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## Katd66 (19 December 2010)

Perhaps the best next step is to get email addresses for several breed associations(like the ones others have mentioned on here) and see if any of them recognise the brands or can point you in the right direction!


FEDERATION OF HUNGARIAN HORSE BREEDERS - they were so helpful when tracing my 2 Nonius' history

Web: www.mlosz.hu
E-mail info@mlosz.hu

If you need help translating website let me know but they emailed me in english when I contacted them.


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## DH1 (19 December 2010)

Just a thought on the 'L' brand. 
KWPN/Dutch WB horses used to be branded with a letter to represent the year of their birth. The letter L relates to 1992.


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## digitalangel (19 December 2010)

i had a look at your other thread and the pics there - definirely looks like a LOU brand to me


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## kezimac (19 December 2010)

see this thread that some lovely person has started on EE forum - and someone has posted similar brandings on a lippizaner. he does have a lippi type head. 

http://www.enlightenedequitation.com/ee/boards/index.php?topic=42703.msg417156#new


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## jhoward (19 December 2010)

I said on the the previous thread he looked like a lipi.. 

heres a bit of info for you OP. 

Lipizzaners are marked by their brands, on the left cheek, the brand of descent, usually an L denoting a purebred Lipizzaner, on the left withers, a letter denoting the bloodline of the sire (out of the six classical bloodlines) and a symbol denoting the bloodline of the dam (out of the same six bloodlines) and the left hip carrying the brand of the stud at which the horse was foaled. The Piber stud's mark is a P beneath a crown. The only brand on the right side of the horse is the foal registry number, and all brands, excepting the cheek brand and the hip brand, are covered by the saddle.

try emailing some pics to these guys in the links see if they have anything to say.
http://www.lipizzaner.co.uk
http://www.lipizzaner.org.uk


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## lipizzaner (19 December 2010)

My horse is a pure bred Lipizzaner, on Register One of the UK Lipizzaner studbook.  He was bred in Hungary and has the L surrounded by stag horns, exactly the same as your horse.  This is on his right saddle area, directly underneath that brand is 04 to denote his year of birth.  On his left saddle is his foal number.

The L surrounded by stag horns is definitely not a LOU mark, my old horse had one of those and it was quite different!

Branding of Lipizzaners is not the same in every country, so not all are branded on cheeks/hips.  Lots of private studs (such as the one I bought my horse from) have their own branding system and don't follow the same rules as Piber.

Looks like he could well be a Lipi, and perhaps an elderly one at that if 78 is his year of birth.  Well done with him, you have obviously made him much more comfortable since he came to you.


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## samandcasper (19 December 2010)

mbequest said:



			It is definitely a KPWN passport. does it just say page 5 in the bottom left hand corner?  Are the brands labelled on the identity drawing and in the bottom right hand corner is there a stamp and signature of the vet?

It wouldbe very unlikely that a Ducth horse has been sent to either Poland or Hungary and been re-branded, they tend to only do it as foals.

I have to say that the L brand to me defo looks like a loss of use brand.  Do you mind if I ask who told you it wasnt done like they do it?
		
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*not just a marking as a star and a snip on his mouth nothing else at alland my vet said it isnt a LOU*




JessandCharlie said:



			From http://www.horsedata.co.uk/horse_brands.htm

You can't see the pic here but looks like the stag horns you boy has? Maybe?

Baden Wurttemburg:

Pferdezuchtverband Baden-Württemberg e.V.
Heinrich-Baumann-Straße 1-3
D-70190 Stuttgart
Tel: 0049-7 11 - 16 65 50   
Fax: 0049-7 11 - 1 66 55 20

Pferdesportverband Baden-Württemberg

The branding numbers on the horses left hindquarters are part of the life identity number of the horse. For example:

Life identity number: DE 473 73207 32 09
DE - Country of origin
473- Association within the country of origin (473 Baden-Württemberg, for horses born before 2000, 373)
73207- a random number
32 - branding number (random)
09 - Year of birth
The life identity number is unique for every horse.
		
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*hi thanks but no i have seen the pic and its nothing like caspers xx*



JessandCharlie said:



			Another thing (I'm nearly done, promise) is it looks almost like somebody's had a go at recreating the trakehner brand in a way. That is stag horns, but with no 'L' in the middle, and not quite the same. Google and have a look if you haven't already. The 'L' could be a stud's mark?

mbe, quite right. I'm being a blonde 

Click to expand...

*o need to stop writing every little info is great and its more brackets with things off of it not horns hun xx*



DH1 said:



			Just a thought on the 'L' brand. 
KWPN/Dutch WB horses used to be branded with a letter to represent the year of their birth. The letter L relates to 1992.
		
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*ohhhh could be i just havent a clue now so many possiable ways*




digitalangel said:



			i had a look at your other thread and the pics there - definirely looks like a LOU brand to me
		
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*no deffo not my vet has said it isnt one xx*




kezimac said:



			see this thread that some lovely person has started on EE forum - and someone has posted similar brandings on a lippizaner. he does have a lippi type head. 

http://www.enlightenedequitation.com/ee/boards/index.php?topic=42703.msg417156#new

Click to expand...

*ohhh okies i'll have a look now xx*


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## samandcasper (19 December 2010)

jhoward said:



			I said on the the previous thread he looked like a lipi.. 

heres a bit of info for you OP. 

Lipizzaners are marked by their brands, on the left cheek, the brand of descent, usually an L denoting a purebred Lipizzaner, on the left withers, a letter denoting the bloodline of the sire (out of the six classical bloodlines) and a symbol denoting the bloodline of the dam (out of the same six bloodlines) and the left hip carrying the brand of the stud at which the horse was foaled. The Piber stud's mark is a P beneath a crown. The only brand on the right side of the horse is the foal registry number, and all brands, excepting the cheek brand and the hip brand, are covered by the saddle.

try emailing some pics to these guys in the links see if they have anything to say.
http://www.lipizzaner.co.uk
http://www.lipizzaner.org.uk

Click to expand...

*thanks hun xx i'll have a look an email pic's to them i found this writing aswell and with how he moves when ridden and when he gets excitited someone said from the floor he looks like a spanish horse so i googled them all and found him to be near on a lippi *



lipizzaner said:



			My horse is a pure bred Lipizzaner, on Register One of the UK Lipizzaner studbook.  He was bred in Hungary and has the L surrounded by stag horns, exactly the same as your horse.  This is on his right saddle area, directly underneath that brand is 04 to denote his year of birth.  On his left saddle is his foal number.

The L surrounded by stag horns is definitely not a LOU mark, my old horse had one of those and it was quite different!

Branding of Lipizzaners is not the same in every country, so not all are branded on cheeks/hips.  Lots of private studs (such as the one I bought my horse from) have their own branding system and don't follow the same rules as Piber.

Looks like he could well be a Lipi, and perhaps an elderly one at that if 78 is his year of birth.  Well done with him, you have obviously made him much more comfortable since he came to you.
		
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*yer but his number is directly next to the L and horns would tht still be the same as it isnt under it?? thank you im just not to sure with the age thing he isnt at all like an old man lol i have a 23 year old mare and u look at her and would say she is 10 but ride her and u think she is 100 bless her and if  have seen the video u can see hes not at all stiff ect*

*that post on EE  how lovely for someone to do that for me i really apprecitiate that so if ur reading this thank you so much it really touched me  i have joined to EE so if i get accepted i will put my post in *


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## jhoward (19 December 2010)

contact the 2 links see what they have to say, when i saw yr original post He sceamed lipi to me.. I had one, he went on loan and came back a state the pics of yr lad in bad conditon reminded me of his shape so much!


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## navaho (19 December 2010)

samandcasper said:



			yer but his number is directly next to the L and horns would tht still be the same as it isnt under it?? thank you im just not to sure with the age thing he isnt at all like an old man lol i have a 23 year old mare and u look at her and would say she is 10 but ride her and u think she is 100 bless her and if  have seen the video u can see hes not at all stiff ect
		
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My gelding is 23 & he rides like a loony 4 yr old, so dont dismiss the age thing because of how he acts  not all horses are the same. Good luck finding out about your boy


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## samandcasper (19 December 2010)

jhoward said:



			contact the 2 links see what they have to say, when i saw yr original post He sceamed lipi to me.. I had one, he went on loan and came back a state the pics of yr lad in bad conditon reminded me of his shape so much!
		
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*i have just sent emails to them  will kepp u all informed*



navaho said:



			My gelding is 23 & he rides like a loony 4 yr old, so dont dismiss the age thing because of how he acts  not all horses are the same. Good luck finding out about your boy 

Click to expand...

*yer true i suppose velvet had a big burst of enegry a while back and was mistaken for a young one, ohh well as i have said b4 i wouldnt be fussed if he was 100 and could never be ridden hes my baby and thts all that matters xx navaho are u on saddle soap or white blazes if so im sam&rocky ? xx*


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## navaho (19 December 2010)

Yes its me  Saddlesoap im usually on lol! Im boring & stick to the same user name for all the forums lol!


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## Tinypony (19 December 2010)

Interesting.  Earlier today I emailed my friend who has a Lippi and asked her to look at this thread because I also thought he looked like a Lippizaner as soon as I opened your thread.  She also thinks you should contact those Lippizaner people in the links given.  You might get an interesting surprise!  he wouldn't be the first horse to be sold with another horse's passport.  Keep us posted, this is getting really interesting.
It's lovely to hear that he's found his home for life, he looks as if he deserves it.


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## Chestnuttymare (19 December 2010)

well done for all the good work you have done. He looks lovely and very happy with his life now  
I have a mare who came in a poor state, she had been a racehorse in Ireland and by her actions and responses, it was obvious that she hadn't had a particularly nice life. I did try and find out about her and then took the decision to leave it. I wanted to look forward, not back and tbh wasn't sure that I really wanted to know who had her previously. I felt she deserved to start with a clean slate. 
So I stopped looking. Never really looked back since. If your vet says he is perfectly healthy then what have you really got to gain by tracing his origin, well other than satisfying your curiosity which is fair enough.

For what it is worth, I think he looks quite lipizzaner too. I wouldn't go too much on his passport, good chance it isn't his.

Good luck with him.


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## sugarlump121 (19 December 2010)

Hmmm similar story to my similar looking grey gelding who Ive had over 10 years now, very underweight when i had him too- apparently from Ireland from a dealer near the Dartford tunnel- where was yours from?

I've not had any luck finding history on my boy- good luck with yours x


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## brighteyes (20 December 2010)

FWIW  I think that *A)* he's a Lippizaner - looks like one, moves with the carriage of one and the brand is an L inside stag's horns, and *B)* it's either 85, 88 or 89, which makes him 25/22/21 years old.  They may well have since altered the branding position slightly, as in the pics of more recent Lippizaners on the EE forum.

By all means contact the Lippizaner society and seek his origins, but if I were you, I'd leave it at that.  Don't torment yourself by learning of possibly less than happy times for him.  Whatever precarious path he was sent along, it led to you and he has been extremely fortunate   Leave it at that and put all your effort into loving him and caring for him and enjoying your time with him.

Do let us know what turns up from the breed society, though!


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## LadyRascasse (20 December 2010)

for what its worth, this is my 23yr old this summer. from your photos i do believe you lad is older than 12/13 as he has a slightly dipped back (like my lad) i hope you find something about him. but remember its about the present that counts not the past. all i know about my lad is he came from a dealer in scotland, and possible ireland before that. we were lied to about his age and breeding. so don't be surprised if this happens to you.


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## lipizzaner (20 December 2010)

A dipped back in a Lipizzaner is not necessarily an indicator of old age - Lipis often have slightly dipped backs, even as young horses!  It's very common in the breed.


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## samandcasper (20 December 2010)

sugarlump121 said:



			Hmmm similar story to my similar looking grey gelding who Ive had over 10 years now, very underweight when i had him too- apparently from Ireland from a dealer near the Dartford tunnel- where was yours from?

I've not had any luck finding history on my boy- good luck with yours x
		
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*yeah casper came from just past dartford as well as u walk in on the right they have a hut thing then on the left is where the horses are they also breed dogs*



Dizzy The Blonde Reindeer said:



			for what its worth, this is my 23yr old this summer. from your photos i do believe you lad is older than 12/13 as he has a slightly dipped back (like my lad) i hope you find something about him. but remember its about the present that counts not the past. all i know about my lad is he came from a dealer in scotland, and possible ireland before that. we were lied to about his age and breeding. so don't be surprised if this happens to you. 






Click to expand...

*WOW urs looks amazing*



brightinsel said:



			FWIW  I think that *A)* he's a Lippizaner - looks like one, moves with the carriage of one and the brand is an L inside stag's horns, and *B)* it's either 85, 88 or 89, which makes him 25/22/21 years old.  They may well have since altered the branding position slightly, as in the pics of more recent Lippizaners on the EE forum.

By all means contact the Lippizaner society and seek his origins, but if I were you, I'd leave it at that.  Don't torment yourself by learning of possibly less than happy times for him.  Whatever precarious path he was sent along, it led to you and he has been extremely fortunate   Leave it at that and put all your effort into loving him and caring for him and enjoying your time with him.

Do let us know what turns up from the breed society, though!
		
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*i will do going to check my emails now *



lipizzaner said:



			A dipped back in a Lipizzaner is not necessarily an indicator of old age - Lipis often have slightly dipped backs, even as young horses!  It's very common in the breed.
		
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## Boxers (20 December 2010)

I'm afriad I don't know your horse and no nothing about branding - however I just want to say well done to you for giving this boy a chance.  He looks so much better in your 'after' posts.  I hope you manage for find the information you want - this thread has been so interesting to read - but if you don't then just enjoy him and let him know that not all humans will mistreat him and hopefully he can end his days with you and know that you loved him and appreciated him.  Well done.


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## FAYEFUDGE (20 December 2010)

Very interesting post, please keep us updated!
Your horse looks lovely, a real credit to you!


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## jaspejoo (20 December 2010)

it looks like the first freeze mark in the first picture is a loss of use L...which is supposed to be an (L) .. (i think!!)


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## appylass (20 December 2010)

jaspejoo said:



			it looks like the first freeze mark in the first picture is a loss of use L...which is supposed to be an (L) .. (i think!!)
		
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To me it doesn't look like a LOU mark. I have only ever had one horse myself who had a LOU mark done - it was an 'L' completely enclosed within a circle. I have seen others exactly the same. On the OP's horse, the 'L' seems to be inside brackets (for want of a better word) and they seem to have bits coming off them, like antlers maybe?


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## skychick (20 December 2010)

It doesnt look like the loss of use mark on farmkeys website

http://www.farmkey.co.uk/farmkey/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=37&Itemid=44


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## Caz89 (20 December 2010)

Well done with him! poor boy.. he is lucky to have found you! And It's not the end of the world if he does turn out to be over 20.... my boy is 21 (in the sig) and there is nothing I can't do with him


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## Tinypony (20 December 2010)

Sam, are you saying you brought him from Tom Bonner, in Darenth near Dartford?  I believe some of his horses are from the continent.


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## brighteyes (20 December 2010)

jaspejoo said:



			it looks like the first freeze mark in the first picture is a loss of use L...which is supposed to be an (L) .. (i think!!)
		
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No, it doesn't!  LOU is an L in a perfect circle.


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## Toffee44 (20 December 2010)

If the horse came from him just disregard the passport a friend bought a horse from him and he came with a ISH passport saying he was 6 even though he had a massive belguim warmblood brand and his chip number showed he was from a Belguim stud. In this case with a bit of TLC the boy turned into a cracker.


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## samandcasper (20 December 2010)

Caz89 said:



			Well done with him! poor boy.. he is lucky to have found you! And It's not the end of the world if he does turn out to be over 20.... my boy is 21 (in the sig) and there is nothing I can't do with him
		
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*wow what a stunner he is aswell *



Tinypony said:



			Sam, are you saying you brought him from Tom Bonner, in Darenth near Dartford?  I believe some of his horses are from the continent.
		
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*his name was tom not sure of his last he has a very strong irish accent and the lady kelly i think thts her name was nice she had just a normal english accent*


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## Jayde87 (20 December 2010)

I see the numbers at as (L) 35.
And on his other side - 78.
I'm no expert on freezemarking but might be an idea to ask someone who is with these pics


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## samandcasper (20 December 2010)

OMG!! ITS HIM i just googled his name and found so much on his about ill horses and selling horses who are double there age aswell as selling horses with out passports,,, errrr bloddy piss take.. i went to him around 8-9 years ago Aand it was a bloddy state then  errrr not to sure what to do now :'(


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## samandcasper (20 December 2010)

Jayde87 said:



			I see the numbers at as (L) 35.
And on his other side - 78.
I'm no expert on freezemarking but might be an idea to ask someone who is with these pics
		
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*yes it is 35 my friend has just read this and showed me a pic she took in the beggning and it is a 35.. thats weird i was just going to post and say about this lol and now i remeber her saying this as i said it looked like a backwars E xx sorry people*


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## JessandCharlie (20 December 2010)

Why aren't you sure what to do now? From what I've read here, he has almost certainly come from the continent, not an ad in H&H. But he's here now 
So if he came from the continent, you may be able to find out his breeding (roughly) by his branding. The pics posted on the EE of the Hungarian Lipizzaners looked unbelievably similar to his, so I think that's the best place to go now


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## Jayde87 (20 December 2010)

Am pleased some things have been sorted out for you. It really doesn't matter if he does turn out to be older than the advert stated. Have you had the dentist out? They will be the ones that can give you the most accurate age. Hope you find out some more details about your beautiful boy.


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## dozzie (20 December 2010)

JessandCharlie said:



			Why aren't you sure what to do now? From what I've read here, he has almost certainly come from the continent, not an ad in H&H. But he's here now 
So if he came from the continent, you may be able to find out his breeding (roughly) by his branding. The pics posted on the EE of the Hungarian Lipizzaners looked unbelievably similar to his, so I think that's the best place to go now 

Click to expand...

Agree with this.( Have just had a nosey on EE)

Also, to the OP, you have done a great job with him. Well done.


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## lipizzaner (20 December 2010)

My horse is one of the Lipizzaners on the EE thread.  As others have said on there, it seems your horse is very likely to be a Hungarian Lipizzaner with that brand.  Lippa on there lives in Hungary and has offered help to you to trace your horse's identity for you, she is your best bet to find out his bloodlines and breeding.  She helped me to buy my horse from Budapest, she is very experienced with Lipizzaners and I'd imagine would be your best port of call to find out more about him.

I don't think you will ever know what has happened to him or what he has been through, if I were you I wouldn't torment yourself with it.  Just enjoy him for what he is now and find out about his bloodlines.


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## JessandCharlie (20 December 2010)

^^That, is quite some opportunity from lipizanner!


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## **Vanner** (20 December 2010)

How interesting.  OP you have done such a wonderful job for this boy.

I'd contact the lady on the other forum - I guess she would be the most likely to help you progress further.

Lippi's (which I very much agree he probably is) are renowned for being active well beyond other breeds so you might be suprised, although I'd have thought your vet would have been able to give some indication of age.

Best of luck.


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## digitalangel (20 December 2010)

H&H article on Tom Bonner

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/386/174750.html

am watching this thread with interest - i managed to trace my boys bloodlines too - now i own his mother!


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## samandcasper (21 December 2010)

JessandCharlie said:



			Why aren't you sure what to do now? From what I've read here, he has almost certainly come from the continent, not an ad in H&H. But he's here now 
So if he came from the continent, you may be able to find out his breeding (roughly) by his branding. The pics posted on the EE of the Hungarian Lipizzaners looked unbelievably similar to his, so I think that's the best place to go now 

Click to expand...

*oh no not as in not sure what to do with him lol i ment it as next year i wanted to get him fit and work him back to fitness and show him off and if hes old i'd feel a right cow making him work because i want him fit if hes to old, to hes been out of work over 2 months as i lost interest in riding ect as after selling my last horse (my compleat best friend) i have tourtered my self as he wasnt behaving and she wanted to sell him and it really got me down and as much as this sounds horiable i looked at casper as a horse in my horses steble(alltho i love him more than i can explain it got to me) but hes moved to a yard he likes and has been perfect and imok now and have slow been working casper but want him fit for next year so we can take off  and yer i know as soon as i saw the pic i was like YESSSSSS finaly lol*



lipizzaner said:



			My horse is one of the Lipizzaners on the EE thread.  As others have said on there, it seems your horse is very likely to be a Hungarian Lipizzaner with that brand.  Lippa on there lives in Hungary and has offered help to you to trace your horse's identity for you, she is your best bet to find out his bloodlines and breeding.  She helped me to buy my horse from Budapest, she is very experienced with Lipizzaners and I'd imagine would be your best port of call to find out more about him.

I don't think you will ever know what has happened to him or what he has been through, if I were you I wouldn't torment yourself with it.  Just enjoy him for what he is now and find out about his bloodlines.
		
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*yer i couldnt handle knowing what my baby has been through tht i wouldnt want to know but i'd love to know his good past like name age well even if i only ever know his name and age will do lol i havenrt been accepted on EE yet would some one be able to pass my email to this wonderfull lady whos gonna help me  ryansamandscott@hotmail.com*


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## jhoward (21 December 2010)

maybe get his breeding confirmed and leave it there. 

if he is a lipi, dont worry about what yr doing with him, there are incredibley tough horses, he will tell you when its time to slow down.. they are also incredibley intelligent, and can be sharp, so things you may think are him being naughty are proberly infact him out smarting you. 



(ive had a lipi and he drove me insane)


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## Tinypony (21 December 2010)

Tom Bonner told me that he got a lot of horses from Europe, so it's looking more and more likely that you have a Lippi there, particulary as Tom tends to get "confused" over passports.  (As proved in court).
I agree with jhoward, don't stress about what he may or may not have been through, but I'd definitely take up that kind offer to find out his origins.  Apart from anything else, we're all dying to know!
Happy Christmas, proud owner of a lippizaner.


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## Godknows (21 December 2010)

Tinypony said:



			Tom Bonner told me that he got a lot of horses from Europe, so it's looking more and more likely that you have a Lippi there, particulary as Tom tends to get "confused" over passports.  (As proved in court).
I agree with jhoward, don't stress about what he may or may not have been through, but I'd definitely take up that kind offer to find out his origins.  Apart from anything else, we're all dying to know!
Happy Christmas, proud owner of a lippizaner.
		
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This^^^^ and now after reading all this I am very interested to know what you find out


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## samandcasper (21 December 2010)

jhoward said:



			maybe get his breeding confirmed and leave it there. 

if he is a lipi, dont worry about what yr doing with him, there are incredibley tough horses, he will tell you when its time to slow down.. they are also incredibley intelligent, and can be sharp, so things you may think are him being naughty are proberly infact him out smarting you. 



(ive had a lipi and he drove me insane)
		
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*yes he does try lol on the ground he is perfect but ridden wise when i ask him to move in with inside leg alltho he listens well on that when i ask to trot he dog trot like a shuffle then as i push him on he bucks only a lil flick so i stopped riding him had his back done got new saddle and he still does it untill i realised he was being naughty or trying me and was a bit abrupt and made him listen now he dosn't do it the lil **** lol xx*


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## danielledanielle (26 December 2010)

Read alll the replies, good luck with this and he is so lucky to have you!!

I would honestly not take any notice of the passport... my pony was sold with a fake passport.. it was fully intact but it was just completely wrong, wrong name, breeding everything

xx


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## samandcasper (31 December 2010)

*hello everyone again thank you so much for all ur lovely messages about casper and how well u think i have done with him... im gonna ask to close this now and if u do know him ect i'd rather not know im gonna stick to what i have i would still like info on his bredd ppl think he is tho xx i thank everyday i have with him hes such an amazing boy, and by how he is with me im pretty sure he thanks me for having him (even if he is kinda perverted about it lol) i love him more than anything and wouldnt change a single thing with him.... im moving to a smaller yard next week as had a lot of probs with my old horse on my yard now and im still tied with the same brush  so new year new start, i will still update info of what we do ect have a wicked new vid to put up soonas my phone decided to work lol thank you all again for comments and all of ur help xxxxxxx*


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## PurplePickle (31 December 2010)

Hes lovely and what a great job you have done with him. Microchipping wasnt compulsory till about 2000/2001 in the netherlands if hes got a KWPN passport this makes sense that he was born before then. He could then have moved to another country in his early life meaning he never got a chip? possible .

If hes healthy and happy dont worry about his age he will tell you what he can and cant do you sound like a sensitive owner who will do whats best for him.


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## samandcasper (31 December 2010)

**you sound like a sensitive owner who will do whats best for him. **

lol u could say that.. he gets away with murder with me and thank you xx


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## samandcasper (2 August 2011)

bump


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