# Skipping to harder levels of dressage



## Jericho (13 March 2017)

This goes against everything I have ever been taught but if the higher level dressage tests suit a horse better despite having a relative novice on board who has only ever done Prelim and Novice (but schools at home at higher levels) would you skip the Novice tests and do the more difficult Elementary / Medium tests because the horse finds it easier? The rider in question is only 13 and I wanted to work her through the ranks but didn't quite realise how tricky the horse rides.   The horse in question scores consistently average at Novice - he is built fairly downhill but very clever, has all the moves which he does much nicer than simple 20m circles, trot walk trot transitions are average but flying changes, leg yielding, walk pirouettes, shoulder ins, half pass, canter to halt, halt to canter, he does very nicely and really enjoys. Free walk on a long rein he just didn't do but extended walk he does. He doesnt have big movement or cadence or expression but he is accurate and quick thinking.  The quicker the movements come the better he is and the more upright and active he becomes, if he has to endlessly trot round he gets more and more downhill and likes to put in his own movements! Our warm ups are complicated to keep him light and active and then it feels like the test is bleurrghhh.  When we got him, he was quite tense and didn't move properly over his back. We initially spent a lot of time changing this and concentrating on forward and energy and activity and suppleness required at Prelim and Novice but his conformation and paces are against him and  judges  don't like him and we are all becoming rather frustrated. Some of the more expressisve  movements like  extended trot will still be beyond him, his medium trot is only really satisfactory in my eye but if we really sit him up and collect he looks and feels a different horse ....

Any advice?


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## Cortez (13 March 2017)

Bung him in a few higher level tests and see what scores and comments you get. I will lay large odds they will not be complimentary, but what the hay...If a horse is properly trained AND ridden his basic work will be correct. The twiddles are easy; basics are the bedrock.


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## eggs (13 March 2017)

Definitely try the harder level tests.  One of my horses would be lucky to score mid 60s at novice but has great half pass, piaffe and tempi changes so she came out at medium


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## daffy44 (13 March 2017)

Cortez said:



			Bung him in a few higher level tests and see what scores and comments you get. I will lay large odds they will not be complimentary, but what the hay...If a horse is properly trained AND ridden his basic work will be correct. The twiddles are easy; basics are the bedrock.
		
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This ^^^^


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## Charlie007 (13 March 2017)

I have sort of skipped through with my boy. When I got him, ex racer, he had done nothing. We started at intro, did a few to settle him then a few prelims. He has won a few. So I decided to go straight to novice and he has started scoring better in novice. So we are now doing novice and schooling ele.  I'm hoping to do an ele in the next month or so as like yours,  goes so much better when given lots to think about. I think you should definitely try after all a lot of riders go straight out at ele!!!


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## Destario (13 March 2017)

I hate prelim tests. Not enough to keep brain engaged on a horse that has good w/t/c. Ditto for some of the novice tests. I find most elem tests very disjointed. Worth seeing if the more complicated tests work better. Also there are a couple of nice novice tests (the 20#60m ones) that aren't too boring. 

Give it a go and see what scores and comments you get. No harm in trying!


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## Casey76 (14 March 2017)

Just remember that it wasn't so long ago that Elementary was the first "level."  There is nothing to say that you have to compete through all the levels if you are schooling to an adequate level at home.

However having said that... the basics *must* be in place before a horse can adequately perform at a higher level.  If the horse can't perform a 20m circle accurately, in rhythm, with correct bend and suppleness, then it isn't going to do vey well no matter what "fancy moves" it can pull off.  Just because a horse can do changes, doesn't mean to say that they are "correct."


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## FfionWinnie (14 March 2017)

Is this the grey you posted about before?


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## milliepops (14 March 2017)

ah yes FW, good spot, because for me that pony needed to develop quite a bit in terms of self carriage and throughness before he would be able to produce the work required in the more advanced levels.  Even though there are more 'tricks' in the tests, the basic way of going counts for so much - so much more, even, because showing a poor transition, or stiffness, or a lack of balance has a bigger impact on your ability to deliver the requirements of the test.

By all means give it a go OP, but I would be concerned that your young rider might be disappointed by the comments on the test sheet


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## Jericho (14 March 2017)

milliepops said:



			ah yes FW, good spot, because for me that pony needed to develop quite a bit in terms of self carriage and throughness before he would be able to produce the work required in the more advanced levels.  Even though there are more 'tricks' in the tests, the basic way of going counts for so much - so much more, even, because showing a poor transition, or stiffness, or a lack of balance has a bigger impact on your ability to deliver the requirements of the test.

By all means give it a go OP, but I would be concerned that your young rider might be disappointed by the comments on the test sheet 

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Thank you for all your comments. Yes it is the grey - he is a very tricky one. The test i initially posted about was very poor and I looked at it again and it doesnt really reflect him as daughter wasn't riding him forward at all.  The problem with him is that he finds it very difficult to get his bottom under him and he is lazy when it comes to 'boring in his eyes' work and the lateral work really helps him to move himself and keep his mind thinking. I completely agree with all the comments about being correct with the basics, was just thinking of ways to keep daughter motivated and competing at dressage.They are not an ideal combination yet as she still isn't strong enough in core or leg security but trying hard, and I and his past owner find him much easier.  I don't think actually going out competing at the higher levels is the right thing for them as worried the comments are going to be negative so I think I might get them to do some online competition dressage tests at the higher level so they are in their home environment. I am also desperately trying to lose  weight so I can ride and help, with the aim to improve the prelim and novice movements.  BTW we did a bute trial (no difference!) and he has been seen by vet and checked by physio again and been given all clear.  He is such a lovely boy and they have just completed their first BE80 going double clear and coming 9th so its not all bad!


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## Cortez (14 March 2017)

Surely the best way to keep your daughter motivated is to help her become a better rider?


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## Jericho (14 March 2017)

Cortez said:



			Surely the best way to keep your daughter motivated is to help her become a better rider?
		
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Absolutely - no doubt about that, just trying to keep it fun and motivating for her as well as they have hit a bit of a rut in their flatwork. She really loves going out to compete and being judged as such otherwise i wouldn't worry so much about improving them both. She has much more growing to do and learn with him and is having regular lessons with both a dressage trainer and a jumping one. Nt sure that this is coming particularly well...


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## milliepops (14 March 2017)

it's great that she is enjoying her eventing and getting good results - that should help her to stay enthusiastic 

There's no reason why he shouldn't use the lateral work etc in warm ups or at home to help improve his way of going, they are all tools to help develop the horse's suppleness, responsiveness, balance etc.  I think that's different to going out to a show and needing to deliver a medium or AM quality half pass  
She could use the same feeling in the tests to help get better scores at the lower tests, e.g think towards shoulder-in around a corner to maintain balance, increase engagement and set him up for the next movement, whatever that may be. Even just travelling down the long side, lots of horses actually end up slightly quarters-in so if she is able to ride slightly towards shoulder fore, that will mean he is straight AND staying a little more engaged and balanced.  If her dressage trainer is a good one then she can probably start covering this in her lessons? bit more advanced ringcraft?


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## Jericho (14 March 2017)

milliepops said:



			it's great that she is enjoying her eventing and getting good results - that should help her to stay enthusiastic 

There's no reason why he shouldn't use the lateral work etc in warm ups or at home to help improve his way of going, they are all tools to help develop the horse's suppleness, responsiveness, balance etc.  I think that's different to going out to a show and needing to deliver a medium or AM quality half pass  
She could use the same feeling in the tests to help get better scores at the lower tests, e.g think towards shoulder-in around a corner to maintain balance, increase engagement and set him up for the next movement, whatever that may be. Even just travelling down the long side, lots of horses actually end up slightly quarters-in so if she is able to ride slightly towards shoulder fore, that will mean he is straight AND staying a little more engaged and balanced.  If her dressage trainer is a good one then she can probably start covering this in her lessons? bit more advanced ringcraft?
		
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Thanks Milliepops - thats very useful


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## Embo (14 March 2017)

milliepops said:



			..She could use the same feeling in the tests to help get better scores at the lower tests, e.g t*hink towards shoulder-in around a corner to maintain balance, increase engagement* and set him up for the next movement, whatever that may be. Even just travelling down the long side, lots of horses actually end up slightly quarters-in so if she is able to *ride slightly towards shoulder fore*, that will mean he is straight AND staying a little more engaged and balanced.  If her dressage trainer is a good one then she can probably start covering this in her lessons? bit more advanced ringcraft?
		
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This is exactly what my trainer gets us doing each week. It really does work to keep the horse balanced and engaged and getting the rider to ride each and every moment (it's apparent that I do not!!). It definitely works for us  so I'd say great advice.


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## FfionWinnie (14 March 2017)

Who wants to do dressage. Is it actually her?  Maybe she would rather event him and that would be the motivation to improve the flat work?


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## Jericho (14 March 2017)

FfionWinnie said:



			Who wants to do dressage. Is it actually her?  Maybe she would rather event him and that would be the motivation to improve the flat work?
		
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Her - she likes the technicality of it but she does love jumping as well. She really likes being able to do the advanced moves and improving the flat work - I am not forcing her to do anything ... :-S and I am proud of her that she wants to learn to ride properly rather than just throw herself over jumps. The pony is not easy and its finding a balance so that the flat work doesnt become boring


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## Casey76 (14 March 2017)

Jericho said:



			Her - she likes the technicality of it but she does love jumping as well. She really likes being able to do the advanced moves and improving the flat work - I am not forcing her to do anything ... :-S and I am proud of her that she wants to learn to ride properly rather than just throw herself over jumps. The pony is not easy and its finding a balance so that the flat work doesnt become boring
		
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I know it's fun when you can do all of the flashy stuff, but it really is down to getting the basics down... and it is repetitious and can be (dare I say it) boring.  Although my mare has a muscle myopathy, so has found it difficult to work correctly, it has taken us months of consistent repetitive work of doing simple school figures (circles, voltes, serpentines, figures of 8) before she feels nice and supple on both reins , taking the contact equally and no leaning to the left or right.  That's not to say we haven't played around with other stuff too, but getting the basics has really made a huge difference to the ease in which she picks up the harder stuff.

Getting your pony to really use his HQs, getting the hip properly folding etc will take some time, but it will make a big difference to his changes and amount of sweep to his half pass etc.


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## FfionWinnie (14 March 2017)

I wasn't in *anyway* suggesting she just "throws herself over jumps".


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## SmallSteps (14 August 2017)

Speaking as someone that does just throw themselves over jumps, we spend most of our time on the basics - simple school figures, transitions, lateral work - forward, straightness, responsiveness, contact, engagement - all the boring bits. Are they even in the contact and supple on both reins? Can they stay straight, soft and engaged through their transitions? (Personally I jump once a week, flatwork schooling two or three, hacking twice, compete only BS.)


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## Orangehorse (14 August 2017)

A prelim test can be hard work with all those canters allowing the horse to become longer and flatter!


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## JFTDWS (14 August 2017)

Jericho said:



			Her - she likes the technicality of it but she does love jumping as well. She really likes being able to do the advanced moves and improving the flat work - I am not forcing her to do anything ... :-S and I am proud of her that she wants to learn to ride properly rather than just throw herself over jumps. The pony is not easy and its finding a balance so that the flat work doesnt become boring
		
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Good on her.  I'm always heartened to hear of children who take the schooling side of horse ownership seriously.  I think MP's advice about using her technical moves to her advantage in lower level work is excellent.  

I don't really agree with working on the basics exclusively - to me, that is drilling a horse, and you should introduce appropriate higher level movements into the work to improve the way of going in the basic stuff, to keep the horse mentally sharp and to lay foundations for progression - but there is an element of horses for courses here: a sharp horse might benefit from quiet repetition of basics, while a clever, lazy native benefits from being mentally challenged at every turn.  

I have one who regularly got better scores at higher levels - but his basics are very correct, just extremely workmanlike.  He is loved by biomechanics trainers (Gerd Heuschmann called him "correct", "not a remedial project" and very much worthy of the medium level work he was doing at the time), but invariably unappreciated by judges!


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## Caol Ila (14 August 2017)

JFTD said:



			Good on her.  I'm always heartened to hear of children who take the schooling side of horse ownership seriously.  I think MP's advice about using her technical moves to her advantage in lower level work is excellent.  

I don't really agree with working on the basics exclusively - to me, that is drilling a horse, and you should introduce appropriate higher level movements into the work to improve the way of going in the basic stuff, to keep the horse mentally sharp and to lay foundations for progression - but there is an element of horses for courses here: a sharp horse might benefit from quiet repetition of basics, while a clever, lazy native benefits from being mentally challenged at every turn.  

I have one who regularly got better scores at higher levels - but his basics are very correct, just extremely workmanlike.  He is loved by biomechanics trainers (Gerd Heuschmann called him "correct", "not a remedial project" and very much worthy of the medium level work he was doing at the time), but invariably unappreciated by judges!
		
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What do you mean?  Does he not do well against the warmbloods?

I'm all about introducing more advanced movements if the horse is fit enough to cope.  Too long on basics, my horse mentally checks out and becomes the most behind-the-leg thing ever.  You need to include more complicated movements to keep her attention.


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## honetpot (14 August 2017)

Cortez said:



			Surely the best way to keep your daughter motivated is to help her become a better rider?
		
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To keep children motivated, and adults you have to set them achievable goals, with a dash of fun.
  I taught both my daughters to ride, my aim should be that they should ride as well as they were able, but my main push was that they should have consideration and understanding for the animal they were riding.
  Lots of there PC friends had mums that rode and the same problems tend to crop up. We all have different levels of athleticism and coordination, the same for the pony and you have to realistic about how the combination can change to get the perfect picture, and  in trying archiving that aim you do not spoil your child's relationship with you or the pony, and later horse, which is so much harder. Sometimes its just better to avoid something difficult and keep practicing failure, and find something that they do well, and work forward from there.
   I never realised this more as when my daughter went hunting, she was having fun, being encouraged by adults and not nagged by her mum. Take the hand brake off mother.
   As long as the posters daughter is aware there could be some negatives at trying a higher level, I would give it a go. Usually when you go through the test sheets there are constant comments about weak spots in the test, if she takes these objectively and not personally she should be able to cope with the negative comments. Mr President, skipped a bit and ended up doing Grand Prix!https://mrpresidentiv.wordpress.com/background/
    She sounds as if she is doing really well, you know your daughter better than anyone. Good luck.


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## nikkimariet (14 August 2017)

Cortez said:



			Bung him in a few higher level tests and see what scores and comments you get. I will lay large odds they will not be complimentary, but what the hay...If a horse is properly trained AND ridden his basic work will be correct. The twiddles are easy; basics are the bedrock.
		
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Yep.


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## DressageCob (15 August 2017)

Did the OP's daughter go for it in the end? I note this thread is 5 months old


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## FfionWinnie (15 August 2017)

DressageCob said:



			Did the OP's daughter go for it in the end? I note this thread is 5 months old 

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Fairly sure it turned out to have something wrong with it there was another post with a video and I think a post in vet about it. Hopefully it's sorted now.


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