# Livery Yards, Horse Welfare and the Law



## minesadouble (10 January 2011)

I have seen numerous posts stating that DIY livery owners can be prosecuted under the Animal Welfare Act 2006 if there is a welfare issue with a horse on their yard. Can someone please point me in the direction of what provision in the law there is for this as I have searched and cannot find it.

I found this on The Horse Trust Website from 2009 ;-

"1) At present, Livery Yards in the UK are not regulated, unlike many other establishments that look after animals, such as catteries and kennels. Defra has said that it may draft secondary legislation around the 2006 Animal Welfare Act to regulate livery yards in the future"

and this on the DEFRA Website;-

"Who will be responsible if there is a concern of poor welfare at a livery yard  yard owner or horse owner? 
Our initial thinking is that there should be a written agreement between yard owner and each horse owner  this would make clear who is responsible for what.


Why has the proposed date for the introduction of a livery yard licensing scheme been put back?
MPs and peers in Parliament focused on welfare issues elsewhere, so our limited resources are now prioritised on work that was considered more urgent."

So in light of these statements it would seem there is still no onus on the yard owner, unless the secondary legislation has come into force since 2009. If this is the case can someone point me in the direction of it please?


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## FairyLights (10 January 2011)

I think livery yards should be licenced. OK both YO and liveries may moan, but it is a chance to increase welfare and sto pa lot of cash in hand black economy . I am all for it,its long overdue. I expect that it will be the YO responsibility to deal with a neglected or abandoned horse in the first instance.


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## OWLIE185 (10 January 2011)

Under current legislation (animal welfare) the owner or keeper of the horse is responsible for the welfare of the horse.
A livery yard owner should be in possession of the passports of every horse on their yard and they are therefore deemed to be the keeper in the absence of the owner.


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## Lizzie66 (10 January 2011)

OWLIE185 said:



			Under current legislation (animal welfare) the owner or keeper of the horse is responsible for the welfare of the horse.
A livery yard owner should be in possession of the passports of every horse on their yard and they are therefore deemed to be the keeper in the absence of the owner.
		
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This isn't practical, as you need your passport everytime you take your horse off the yard, competing, hunting etc. Also if YO is basically just renting you field and stable and the rest is your responsibility do they constitute being a YO.

I would have thought the YO if present should have a responsibility to report where they believe there is a welfare issue but that the actual responsibility lies with owner.


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## minesadouble (10 January 2011)

OWLIE185 said:



			Under current legislation (animal welfare) the owner or keeper of the horse is responsible for the welfare of the horse.
A livery yard owner should be in possession of the passports of every horse on their yard and they are therefore deemed to be the keeper in the absence of the owner.
		
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I really don't think this would stand up at all if a case ever came to court unless it specifically stated this in Statute.


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## robysfarm (10 January 2011)

As a yard owner I would not be comfortable asking my liveries for their horses passports and as a previous livery wouldnt of wanted to hand over my horses passports.  We all know there are some yards out their where the owners would hold onto the passport if someone tried to leave etc (I never would) but I really dont think its right.


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## FairyLights (10 January 2011)

But thats irrelevant. Its like saying "I'm not comfortable wearing a seat belt" or "I'm not happy to pay all the council tax , I think I wont bother". If YO are ment to be in possession of the passports then they should be. Owners need to ask for them before boxing up. Its easy to arrange,all passports being in a locked box in the tack room perhaps, with owners having a key for access in YO absence.  what happens if a vet has to visit the yard in  an emergency and the owner is at work with the passport at home? THe passport should be with the horse,and clarification about authorising humane destruction needs addressing too.


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## Spudlet (10 January 2011)

If you allow a horse onto land owned by you, you are deemed to have accepted some level of responsibility for its welfare. What this means is that if an owner does a bunk it is not acceptable for the yard owner to sit back and watch the horse starve to death.


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## Wagtail (10 January 2011)

I think that the YO should be responsible. I am a YO and would never put up with any neglect of any horses on my yard. I do not offer DIY, but one of my liveries does all her own mucking out. I am very strict that this has to be done by 8.30 am unless they notify me otherwise. If it's not done by the time I finish the others then I muck the horse out and charge them double the usual rate. This works well. There really is no excuse for any neglect to be going on at any yard. It makes my blood boil.

However, I am against licencing because it would cost more money. Livery prices would have to go up. I have just finished my accounts for last years profits and despite working 7 days a week 365 days a year, I made less than £4k! I must be mad.


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## minesadouble (10 January 2011)

Spudlet said:



			If you allow a horse onto land owned by you, you are deemed to have accepted some level of responsibility for its welfare. What this means is that if an owner does a bunk it is not acceptable for the yard owner to sit back and watch the horse starve to death.
		
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I am looking for the legislation that stipulates this - where is it???

I just can't see how this can work on a DIY yard. If I let a flat to someone and they abuse their child am I liable for that abuse? It's a subtle difference!


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## Wagtail (10 January 2011)

minesadouble said:



			I am looking for the legislation that stipulates this - where is it???

I just can't see how this can work on a DIY yard. If I let a flat to someone and they abuse their child am I liable for that abuse? It's a subtle difference!
		
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I actually don't think there is any. I have seen reprts regarding people being banned from keeping horses due to neglecting them and it is the owners, not the yard owners that have been prosecuted.


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## Wagtail (10 January 2011)

For example, this one:

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/895/303789.html

She kept her pony on a livery yard.


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## minesadouble (10 January 2011)

Wagtail said:



			I actually don't think there is any. I have seen reprts regarding people being banned from keeping horses due to neglecting them and it is the owners, not the yard owners that have been prosecuted.
		
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Yes me too. I'm not looking for arguments as to rights and wrongs just where the legislation regarding DIY livery that people keep quoting is?? 

 I agree with you, I can't find anything in the Animal Welfare Act and I have never heard of a livery yard owner being prosecuted in respect of a horse belonging to someone else. There is an obvious responsibility if you are providing a full livery service but if you simply letting a stable it becomes more murky.


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## Spudlet (10 January 2011)

Section 4 of the Animal Welfare Act:




			A person commits an offence if-
a. an act of his, or failure to act, causes an animal to suffer
		
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Nothing there about being the owner. If the horse is there on your yard and the owner isn't looking after it and you do nothing, you have committed an offence.


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## Spudlet (10 January 2011)

Although obviously if a YO has any sense at all they will protect themselves by calling in the welfare agencies and by building a clause into their livery agreements that allows them to sell the horse if the owner vanishes...


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## bexwarren24 (10 January 2011)

From what I gather this is an extremly grey area (along with alot of the animal welfare act). A solictor friend of mine (experienced in these areas) has on numerous occasions defended yard/land owners who have been taken to court for these reasons. Problem is that they were taken to court in the first place (when maybe they shouldnt have - who knows).


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## MerrySherryRider (10 January 2011)

Haven't had personal experience of rogue YO's but when a horse on a yard I've been on, has been neglected to some degree, the YO usually has a strong word telling the owner to look after the horse or leave. 
 I wouldn't be in favour of YO holding my horses's passports, in the case of a surprise inspection, I think I read somewhere that passport holders have 3 hours to produce them. Vet has never asked to see one for treatment or euthanasia, and for jabs, if I forget them, I generally drop it off at the surgery afterwards. Only get them out for transporting.
I tend to think licensing yards would make small YO's less likely to offer livery and push prices up on other yards. If a yard looks sub standard, I don't put my horses there. Only yard I've used that was BHS approved was awful, horses out in thick mud 24/7 over winter, no grass and neurotic YO who screamed at the horses constantly. Regulation doesn't always cover the things that matter.


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## Hippona (10 January 2011)

Wagtail said:



			I think that the YO should be responsible. I am a YO and would never put up with any neglect of any horses on my yard. I do not offer DIY, but one of my liveries does all her own mucking out. I am very strict that this has to be done by 8.30 am unless they notify me otherwise. If it's not done by the time I finish the others then I muck the horse out and charge them double the usual rate. This works well. There really is no excuse for any neglect to be going on at any yard. It makes my blood boil.
		
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I don't think you can class not mucking out by 8.30am as neglect 

Hell- I mucked out at 3pm on saturday ( admittedly, the horses had been out from 7.30am......)


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## Wagtail (10 January 2011)

Spudlet said:



			Section 4 of the Animal Welfare Act:



Nothing there about being the owner. If the horse is there on your yard and the owner isn't looking after it and you do nothing, you have committed an offence.
		
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I don't think that does not make the YO liable, otherwise everyone on the yard would be liable if they did not act.


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## Wagtail (10 January 2011)

CuriousYellow said:



			I don't think you can class not mucking out by 8.30am as neglect 

Hell- I mucked out at 3pm on saturday ( admittedly, the horses had been out from 7.30am......)
		
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I say mucking out, it also includes filling the water bucket and haying him up. Sorry, I guess that was a bit misleading.


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## jjbarney (10 January 2011)

notjustforchristmas - you have obviously never owned your own yard. You seem to think we are all rolling around in cash and only in it for the money. No-one who runs a yard does it for the money and compulsory licencing would really push the prices up. I run a nice friendly tidy yard where all the horses are well looked after and all the profits are ploughed back into improvements! Holding someones passport would be a big responsibility. What if they wanted to go to a show and I was on holiday or out for the day. I certainly wouldn't leave them lying around and they would need to be kept safely. Licencing is all very well but shouldn't be necessary on a well run yard


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## Geewhiz (10 January 2011)

We have riding horses as well as livery's as such we are inspected every year we have nothing to hide so i am in favour of Livery licencing on another note all my liveries have lodged their passports with me they know i have them and they are always ready when they are off somewhere and always here should they need the vet and if they want to move their horses they get them back I cant see what the problem is with returnng a passport to an owner should they decide to move on, life's to short to bear grudges if i have done my best then there is nothing else I can do to change things then so be it


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## minesadouble (10 January 2011)

Spudlet said:



			Section 4 of the Animal Welfare Act:



Nothing there about being the owner. If the horse is there on your yard and the owner isn't looking after it and you do nothing, you have committed an offence.
		
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So basically the responsibility of the yard owner (if DIY) is no more than that of A N Other as far as the law is concerned. Obviously most people would feel they had a moral responsibility to act but I was not questioning morality only legality.

I think the crux of section 4 is the proviso

"he knew, or ought reasonably to have known, that the act, or failure to act, would have that effect or be likely to do so," (to result in unnnecessary suffering) and again it would be easily arguable tht fellow liveries are more likely to know what's going on with a horse than the YO if all he does is provide stabling and grazing and offers no 'hands on' services.

So pleading ignorance is going to be a defence to that one. Very interesting, I hasten to add I do not know of any 'neglected liveries' all just hypothetical


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## bliss87 (10 January 2011)

were currently at loger heads as at our yard i have to pay more livery because I a have a large horse so there for more food bedding etc yet when hes mucked out hes allowed one bale of straw the same as the 12hh ponies, during the week they drag the bedding from round the stable and put in the middle of the box where all the wet is because there deep littered


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## FRESHMAN (10 January 2011)

Wagtail said:



			However, I am against licencing because it would cost more money. Livery prices would have to go up. I have just finished my accounts for last years profits and despite working 7 days a week 365 days a year, I made less than £4k! I must be mad. [/QUOTE

I totally disagree. I believe that until "PROPER" licensing comes into force we will always have the "cash in back pocket" "no real welfare/safety" situation" When I say proper I mean ensuring that NNDR is paid, the correct insurance in place, Fire Regs including correctly sited extinguishers & Fire Alarms.Staff on a decent rate for a decent days work. (almost unheard of in most yards) Plus many other things.
If & when this happens we can all be on a level playing field. Yes charges may go up but as long as services & care go in the same direction this has to be a good thing. I guaranteee you will no longer have to chip at to keep them lower than the neighbouring yard, & Voila you will no longer be working 24/7 365 days of the year for £77 per week. Think about it!
		
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## foraday (10 January 2011)

Section 3 of the Welfare Act 2006

And as correctly stated above Section 4.

A YO/YM is sadly responsible for the horses on the yard whether DIY or Part or Full under this act and so are the horse owners themselves.  Even if a horse is on FULL LIVERY the horse owner is if you like still 50% responsible for the care of the horse.

Hope that helps


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## Hal1k1 (11 January 2011)

I did a search and came up with this:

http://www.horsedata.co.uk/LiveryYardsLiabilities.htm

i cannot guarantee the information is correct but it is interesting reading.


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## Sussexbythesea (11 January 2011)

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/45/contents


Responsibility for animals E+W.(1)In this Act, references to a person responsible for an animal are to a person responsible for an animal whether on a permanent or temporary basis..
(2)In this Act, references to being responsible for an animal include being in charge of it..
(3)For the purposes of this Act, a person who owns an animal shall always be regarded as being a person who is responsible for it..
(4)For the purposes of this Act, a person shall be treated as responsible for any animal for which a person under the age of 16 years of whom he has actual care and control is responsible..


Unnecessary suffering E+W.(1)A person commits an offence if&#8212;.
(a)an act of his, or a failure of his to act, causes an animal to suffer,.
(b)he knew, or ought reasonably to have known, that the act, or failure to act, would have that effect or be likely to do so,.
(c)the animal is a protected animal, and.
(d)the suffering is unnecessary..
(2)A person commits an offence if&#8212;.
(a)he is responsible for an animal,.
(b)an act, or failure to act, of another person causes the animal to suffer,.
(c)he permitted that to happen or failed to take such steps (whether by way of supervising the other person or otherwise) as were reasonable in all the circumstances to prevent that happening, and.
(d)the suffering is unnecessary..
(3)The considerations to which it is relevant to have regard when determining for the purposes of this section whether suffering is unnecessary include&#8212;.
(a)whether the suffering could reasonably have been avoided or reduced;.
(b)whether the conduct which caused the suffering was in compliance with any relevant enactment or any relevant provisions of a licence or code of practice issued under an enactment;.
(c)whether the conduct which caused the suffering was for a legitimate purpose, such as&#8212;.
(i)the purpose of benefiting the animal, or.
(ii)the purpose of protecting a person, property or another animal;.
(d)whether the suffering was proportionate to the purpose of the conduct concerned;.
(e)whether the conduct concerned was in all the circumstances that of a reasonably competent and humane person..
(4)Nothing in this section applies to the destruction of an animal in an appropriate and humane manner..


This is the whole of Section 4 but I do not know if there are any subsequent amendments. The legislation only sets out what the intention is. It looks like its written to be a catch all to me so there is less cahnce for someon eto wriggle out of responsibility. I work a lot with waste legislation and although I do not know much about this particular legislation I don't think from this you could categorically say a YO was responsible for one of their clients horses DIY or full livery   - it would depend on the facts of each case. These are the bare bones and usually case law has to be used to determine how they should be interpreted. Any Judge would look at all the facts including any government guidance on the issues to determine where any fault lay. It would not be in the interests of any prosecuting body to pursue a case against a yard owner or anyone else unless they have a very good case. 

With a DIY yard in particular I think it would very much depend on the contract and the level of control the YO takes. If you saw a horse starving to death every day you visited the yard then you could have done something about it and by checking the yard you are taking some sort of responsibility. But if you rent out your fields and never visit them then I think it would be difficult to prove you had any responsibility for the animal or are "in charge of it"

Have any YO been prosecuted - if so what was the outcome?


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## eoe (11 January 2011)

robysfarm said:



			As a yard owner I would not be comfortable asking my liveries for their horses passports and as a previous livery wouldnt of wanted to hand over my horses passports.  We all know there are some yards out their where the owners would hold onto the passport if someone tried to leave etc (I never would) but I really dont think its right.
		
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Do what I do keep a photocopy of the registration, markings and vaccinations pages.


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## Wagtail (11 January 2011)

[QUOTEUnnecessary suffering E+W.(1)A person commits an offence if.
(a)an act of his, or a failure of his to act, causes an animal to suffer,.
(b)he knew, or ought reasonably to have known, that the act, or failure to act, would have that effect or be likely to do so,.
[/QUOTE]

What about the situation where the YO is very rarely around and so unaware of the suffering? Many YO just leave the DIY to it, some even have a separate section for DIY. What about another DIY person knowing all about the abuse or neglect and doing nothing? The wording of the act makes them responsible too. Personally, I think everyone who is witness to such abuse or neglect should do something about it and report it.


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## bexwarren24 (11 January 2011)

sussexbythesea said:



			This is the whole of Section 4 but I do not know if there are any subsequent amendments. The legislation only sets out what the intention is. It looks like its written to be a catch all to me so there is less cahnce for someon eto wriggle out of responsibility. I work a lot with waste legislation and although I do not know much about this particular legislation I don't think from this you could categorically say a YO was responsible for one of their clients horses DIY or full livery   - it would depend on the facts of each case. These are the bare bones and usually case law has to be used to determine how they should be interpreted. Any Judge would look at all the facts including any government guidance on the issues to determine where any fault lay. It would not be in the interests of any prosecuting body to pursue a case against a yard owner or anyone else unless they have a very good case. 

With a DIY yard in particular I think it would very much depend on the contract and the level of control the YO takes. If you saw a horse starving to death every day you visited the yard then you could have done something about it and by checking the yard you are taking some sort of responsibility. But if you rent out your fields and never visit them then I think it would be difficult to prove you had any responsibility for the animal or are "in charge of it"

Have any YO been prosecuted - if so what was the outcome?
		
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I think you have sumed up what I have heard from my animal welfare solicitor friend but in proper legal terms.

He has succesfully defended YO's in welfare cases but the RSPCA will still try and prosecute you for it as the act is so ropey. 

Am I also right in thinking that case law comes about from trials in county courts or higher? I am sure my friend said to me that alot of the problems with this act is that because the cases are heard in magistrates courts there is no real precedent to follow.

I think the long and short is that as a YO you could be liable but would have to go to a court room to arguee it out. I would also think that as someone who runs a yard you are classed as more of "a proffesional" then the average peprson.


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## brigantia (11 January 2011)

I'm not an expert on the legal issues, but every yard owner I've encountered would intervene if they thought the livery wasn't doing right by the horse. They would intervene LONG before that horse became a welfare issue. Most horses don't go to wrack and ruin overnight. 

I've known YOs having serious Come to Jesus talks with liveries who they felt weren't living up to their horse care duties. I've also seen YOs buy the horses off said liveries and sell them on to more responsible people. Even on a DIY yard the health and welfare of the horses on the yard reflects the YOs management and no self-respecting YO wants a neglected horse on their yard.


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## fuggly (13 December 2011)

someone told me today that this act is now being put through and licensing is imminent , can anyone confirm this ??


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## Cuffey (13 December 2011)

fuggly said:



			someone told me today that this act is now being put through and licensing is imminent , can anyone confirm this ??
		
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The legislation is ready prepared  and has been for some time and if it goes forward (Gov decision) it is likely to be in Scotland first


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## FairyLights (13 December 2011)

Its about time all livery yards were licensed, should stop a lot of the black economy for one thing,and hopefully the legislation will mean suitable accommodation for the horses, I've seen large horses in 8ft x8ft boxes at one place.


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## fjordhorsefan (21 January 2012)

What's the position on a YO neglecting the horses they have on full livery (i.e. ignoring owners instructions for care and not providing promised services)? I have searched and found this thread as the closest one to what I want, but not actually what I want.

Can anyone advise?


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## rockysmum (21 January 2012)

I know its nothing to do with horses but a farmer where I used to live ended up in jail for a few months.

I dont think it was prosecuted under any animal welfare act, it was because he was the landlord and had allowed something illegal to happen on his property.

He rented a barn to some members of the Asian community and they used it as an illegal slaughterhouse.

It was reported in the papers, I will see if I can find it.


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## fjordhorsefan (21 January 2012)

Thanks.  I wish there was some regulation to prevent numpties from setting up as YO's and taking full liveries when they are not fit to care for their own animals, let alone someone else's :-(

If there is such a thing, please let me know!


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## scally (21 January 2012)

I totally agree with Freshman Livery Yards need to be regulated.

I have to compete with a yard down the road, not paying business rates, tax etc that can undercut me by £15 per week because of this.  You then go to someone with 3 stables doing schooling livery not declaring a penny, doesnt pay staff properly, no insurance, fire regs etc in place then people remove horses due to "issues".  If you look at boarding kennels the cost is pretty much the same the whole country, they are all on a level playing field, proper channels to complain, contracts in place, standard of care etc etc, this is what is needed and liveries need to pay a fair price for these facilities and policies to be in place.

As for the question about YOs being responsible, its tough, if you feed and water a horse the charities will not get involved, alerting a charity they can take a long time to respond as there are a lot of equines needing urgent help, if you feed it out of your own pocket on a £15 a week DIY livery how long can a lot of YOs cover the cost not many everyone is feeling the pinch, hence regualtion, policies, contracts and line of responsiblity needs to be in place.  

I dont have DIYs so dont have this problem and one reason why I wont.


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## Cuffey (21 January 2012)

Quote from Code of Practice for Welfare of Horses Ponies and Donkeys
http://www.defra.gov.uk/publications/files/pb13334-cop-horse-091204.pdf

''If an owner leaves an
animal in the care of another person, it is the
owner&#8217;s duty to ensure the keeper is competent
and has the necessary authority to act in
an emergency.''


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## Holly Hocks (21 January 2012)

I agree with Freshman that livery yards should be licenced.  Boarding kennels have to be licenced, so why not livery yards?  I think they should all have a minimum standard to reach in order to get a licence.  They should have to prove adequate grazing for the number of horses, well fenced pasture and adequate sized stabling.  I also think they should only have a licence for the number of horses that the pasture can sustain to prevent farmers trying to put several horses on small areas of grazing because it's easy money for them.


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## FRESHMAN (22 January 2012)

Licensing livery yards is the only way forwards. With proper regulations regarding standards etc. 
I can not understand why any YO would argue that prices would have to go up, & on the other hand complain that they worked 365 days a year & still only made £4000.00 profit in a whole year. That is less than £77 per week! Even a 16 yr old apprentice gets £97.50 per week for 37.5 hrs & 28 days paid holiday. Oh plus training from someone highly qualified.
Providing it is done properly everyone will be regulated, why should a small yard have to close? The biggest area of complaint & injury to both horse & rider is the yard that does not have to answer to anyone. How many times do we read my YO does not fix the fence, our fence is wire & hanging loose for horses to get tangled in. Dangerous bits of machinery left around. Got a leaky stable. The electrics dont work properly. My Boy got injured. But 9 times out of 10 people cope with all these situations until something happens. When it does the owner often has a large Vet bill or worse still a horse that is pts due to its injuries. The reason people put up with it in the first place is the livery is as cheap as chips. It is too late once the accident has happened. This type of yard needs removing. Most of these YO's are just cheating the system & putting cash in there back pockets. Again, no one worries until someting happens. Then all hell breaks loose. The real loser is the poor animal.
If we all have to provide safe yards like kennels & catteries the industry as a whole will benefit. More young people will come back into a job they want to be in if they can achieve a decent days pay for a decent days work.
Pay peanuts & you get chimps. Cut corners & you loose standards. 
More than anything though, all horse owners that love there babies to bits needs to remember if you get DIY offered at £20 a week ( ie safe secure stabling & grazing plus excersise arena) dont complain that things are not what you expected.


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## Ladydragon (22 January 2012)

OWLIE185 said:



			Under current legislation (animal welfare) the owner or keeper of the horse is responsible for the welfare of the horse.
*A livery yard owner should be in possession of the passports of every horse on their yard *and they are therefore deemed to be the keeper in the absence of the owner.
		
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Is this your opinion Owlie or is it stated in legislation somewhere?  I've not seen it and understood the passport had to be produced within three hours of an inspector's request - so need not be where the horse 'lives' at all times...


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## fatpiggy (23 January 2012)

I definitely think they should be licenced.  The farm I'm on turns a totally blind eye to all sorts of neglect and terrible welfare despite many complaints by knowledgable and caring liveries.  A couple of years back a pen was rented to a speciman of human life (I wouldn't call him a man) who stuffed a large number of very young calves and thought he'd fatten them up on the cheap.  They were on open slats with absolutely no bedding and were fed nuts and straw.  As they grew they were more and more like sardines. There were livery horses stabled just a few feet away in the same building and the stink of you know what was unbelievable, plus the air quality was appalling. They brought a ringworm outbreak with them.  Two died of bacterial pneumonia, another fell down and was crushed to death - they were the lucky ones because at least it was all over for them.  Those animals never set foot outside from the day they came to the day they went to market.  They got to an age where the bull calves started trying to mount the heifers and fighting amongst themselves and they spent their days cr***ing on each other - what animal likes that?  The owner was highly abusive to the liveries and there were numberous complaints but nothing was done. Now we have ponies that the RSPCA has been called out to, but still YO does nothing.  Lately they have started offering full livery despite having no knowledge whatsoever.  The bed put down for a 16hh TB I wouldn't have put a shetland pony on and you could sneeze your way down to the concrete.  There really must be proper standards and regulation of all yards.


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## gass (8 February 2012)

Okay, looking at this from a personal point of view and stuff that is happening at my current DIY yard.

My horse and others on the yard have been kept in for weeks on end, we obviously ride and excersise,  last wednesday my horse became colicky and vet called, strict instructions from vet to turn out at least half an hour a day to help to prevent colic, vet deemed that contributing factor was lack of turn out.  I approached yard owner and said I appreciate and understand need to horses to be in (!) that we will benefit in the summer with grass etc.  but can I please have half hour turn out a day so my boy can be himself and walk around untethered to forage etc. explained the issues with colic, (he is not a horse person by the way) just owns farm land and the yard.   He was quite rude and aggressive in his response and said he does not care if horse is ill or what vet says, horse is not going out.

Now my question is though I have highlighted the fact of the colic and the needs of any horse to roam freely is he then in breach of the said welfare act in that he has failed to act to ensure that a animal does not suffer.


A person commits an offence if-
a. an act of his, or failure to act, causes an animal to suffer


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## Goldenstar (8 February 2012)

gass said:



			Okay, looking at this from a personal point of view and stuff that is happening at my current DIY yard.

My horse and others on the yard have been kept in for weeks on end, we obviously ride and excersise,  last wednesday my horse became colicky and vet called, strict instructions from vet to turn out at least half an hour a day to help to prevent colic, vet deemed that contributing factor was lack of turn out.  I approached yard owner and said I appreciate and understand need to horses to be in (!) that we will benefit in the summer with grass etc.  but can I please have half hour turn out a day so my boy can be himself and walk around untethered to forage etc. explained the issues with colic, (he is not a horse person by the way) just owns farm land and the yard.   He was quite rude and aggressive in his response and said he does not care if horse is ill or what vet says, horse is not going out.

Now my question is though I have highlighted the fact of the colic and the needs of any horse to roam freely is he then in breach of the said welfare act in that he has failed to act to ensure that a animal does not suffer.


A person commits an offence if-
a. an act of his, or failure to act, causes an animal to suffer
		
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it is your choice to stable him there move him to another yard.
Licenseing when it comes is unlikely to micromanage livery yards but it will made livery more expensive.
I am lucky I have my own yard and land at home and when I hear what people are charging for livery I just can't see how they look after there places properly and make a profit.


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## shadowboy (8 February 2012)

All this talk of undercutting, what happened to the liveries and their horses who can't afford the new prices once licences are essential? Where will those horses be kept? I livery at a licensed yard but interested to know from the point of view of those who just about afford their.horse


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## Wagtail (8 February 2012)

gass said:



			Okay, looking at this from a personal point of view and stuff that is happening at my current DIY yard.

My horse and others on the yard have been kept in for weeks on end, we obviously ride and excersise,  last wednesday my horse became colicky and vet called, strict instructions from vet to turn out at least half an hour a day to help to prevent colic, vet deemed that contributing factor was lack of turn out.  I approached yard owner and said I appreciate and understand need to horses to be in (!) that we will benefit in the summer with grass etc.  but can I please have half hour turn out a day so my boy can be himself and walk around untethered to forage etc. explained the issues with colic, (he is not a horse person by the way) just owns farm land and the yard.   He was quite rude and aggressive in his response and said he does not care if horse is ill or what vet says, horse is not going out.

Now my question is though I have highlighted the fact of the colic and the needs of any horse to roam freely is he then in breach of the said welfare act in that he has failed to act to ensure that a animal does not suffer.


A person commits an offence if-
a. an act of his, or failure to act, causes an animal to suffer
		
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I am a yard owner and provide turnout all year round, but not always in the paddocks. They get 3 hours in a dedicated sand turnout during the winter. I make it clear to owners that this is the arrangement before they come to the livery. This year I have made the exception for one horse, because she is in foal, but this has led to problems. Other liveries who were previously happy with the all weather arrangement, have asked for grass turnout. One horse has COPD, the other box walks, so I regret making that exception. I am lucky that my liveries are very accepting of my reasons for declining their requests and no more has been said on the matter. Would I therefore be responsible if the COPD worstened or the box walker colicked or injured itself? I don't know. But morally, I shouldn't be as their owners took the decision to come here in full knowledge of their horses conditions and the fact that turnout would be limited to 3 hours a day in the winter. Personally, if I had a horse in your situation, there wouldn't be a problem as he would get at least 3 hours turnout every day, but if I didn't have the facilities, then I would provide half hour turnout on a temporary basis but also give a month's notice to leave the yard and find somewhere that was more suitable to your horse's needs.


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## gass (8 February 2012)

I accept what you are saying - but at the time of coming to the yard, it was advertised as 24/7 turn out, no mention of staying in when ground was wet, all this has come about since he has started getting money from DEFRA (not sure how it works).

I accept that the welfare of my horse is my responsibility and as a responsible owner I go to the yard morning and evening and do what is necessary to and for my horse, but I can only do so much for them when they are stabled and not allowed turn out. I am saying that he has been made aware of the problem and the preventative measures that are needed, as they say prevention is better than cure. As he has been made aware is he therefore not doing what he can to prevent the horse from suffering.

You sound like a decent yard owner and you base your findings on what you are given,we have no other turn out options as you have given your livery -  mine however is extremelly agressive and rude, he often shouts at young girls (under 16) and reduces many people to tears, at the end of the day my horse is my responsibility and I need to do what ever I can to prevent him from suffering, his best interests are what concerns me most.  

Rank over...


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## acw295 (8 February 2012)

Really against licensing, the most appaling yards I've seen are so called BHS approved yards where it is acceptable to keep horses in 24/7, don't allow ad lib forage etc. Nicest yards from a welfare point of view have been DIY yards on farms that have ample grazing and allow horses to behave naturally in herds. I know where I'd rather be!!


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## MerrySherryRider (8 February 2012)

I've only been a livery on one BHS approved livery yard and it was probably the worst yard I've been on. The owners were stressy people who screamed at the horses and the entire winter paddock was a deep mud bath devoid of any grass and no shelter for the poor horses living out in it 24/7. Twice daily they would chuck hay over the fence, which lasted long enough for the herd to gobble it up and thrash the rest in the skirmish. The lower ranking horses got the muddy pickings after the others had finished.
 Stables for those that wanted them were lovely, freshly white washed and the feed room  was immaculate. Don't think the horses were bothered about the decor though.
 I didn't stay long, went to a non-BHS approved yard where the facilities that mattered to horse welfare were catered for.

Personally, I don't care what the YO does with my livery money, as long as the horses have a decent environment and turnout. I'm quite capable of making my own assessment when viewing a new yard.


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## The_snoopster (8 February 2012)

gass said:



			Okay, looking at this from a personal point of view and stuff that is happening at my current DIY yard.

My horse and others on the yard have been kept in for weeks on end, we obviously ride and excersise,  last wednesday my horse became colicky and vet called, strict instructions from vet to turn out at least half an hour a day to help to prevent colic, vet deemed that contributing factor was lack of turn out.  I approached yard owner and said I appreciate and understand need to horses to be in (!) that we will benefit in the summer with grass etc.  but can I please have half hour turn out a day so my boy can be himself and walk around untethered to forage etc. explained the issues with colic, (he is not a horse person by the way) just owns farm land and the yard.   He was quite rude and aggressive in his response and said he does not care if horse is ill or what vet says, horse is not going out.

Now my question is though I have highlighted the fact of the colic and the needs of any horse to roam freely is he then in breach of the said welfare act in that he has failed to act to ensure that a animal does not suffer.


A person commits an offence if-
a. an act of his, or failure to act, causes an animal to suffer[


There is a simple solution to your problem and that is to move yards, I rent my own land and had a stable and adjoining feed shed built. I have made winter turnout and summer turnout, ok so at the start it did cost a bit to build and fence off paddocks etc but If I went into livery and had this sort of setup it would of cost me double in livery within a year. I have enough land to have 24/7 turnout all year around for 3 or 4 horses depending on size, my stable is rarely used but is there for if one gets poorly or I want to do something out of the rain with them.
If someone was unhappy or saw cruelty on a daily basis with nothing done by the YO I would let them know my feeling then pack my bags and get the hell out of there.
		
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## Ladydragon (8 February 2012)

gass said:



			Now my question is though I have highlighted the fact of the colic and the needs of any horse to roam freely is he then in breach of the said welfare act in that he has failed to act to ensure that a animal does not suffer.

A person commits an offence if-
a. an act of his, or failure to act, causes an animal to suffer
		
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IMO he's not being overly fair, BUT at the same time, it's also arguable that you are more responsible for your horse's care so committing the offence yourself if you leave the horse there knowing it's an unsuitable environment for his needs...



gass said:



			I accept what you are saying - but at the time of coming to the yard, it was advertised as 24/7 turn out, no mention of staying in when ground was wet, all this has come about since he has started getting money from DEFRA (not sure how it works).
		
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Do you have a contract?  Did he give you a period of notice to the change?

He doesn't have to maintain 24/7 livery if he chooses to change it - although there should be a period of notice IMO...  Annoying though it is, the onus is on you to stay and indirectly agree with the policy change or vote with your feet and find a yard that does...


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## shadowboy (8 February 2012)

Acw295 I'm in agreement with you some of the BHS  yards are so over the top about things you feel you can't breath!


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## gass (9 February 2012)

Hi Peeps,

Believe me - the past day has been spent looking for yards and fields to rent, but nothing yet.  I don't want to stay there any longer than I need to, we do have a contract it says absolutely nothing about turn out and he changes his mind from one year to the next, everyone on the yard grumbles about it but no one challenges him and when they do, the abuse you get is unrealistic, he is threatening, abusive and even rants at the young girls who are there, he done this to me yesterday and I have been on the phone scanning the internet since looking for livery options.

I would love to have a field and do what I want with it, but they are few and far between here.

Oh and when I leave I will leave in a storm as I will be complaining to Defra about the lack of maintenance on a live mains wire that has appeared above ground with cracked caseing exposing the wire which is arching, right along the path to the paddocks, it has been reported 3 times now first time 3 june last year.

I may be sounding  bitter, but this person does not even want to discuss rationally half an hour turn out just whilst we muck out, I dont think that is too much to ask, they are in today eventhough the ground is frozen.

Sooner out the better..... so if anyone knows of places in south cambs let me know.


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## Cocorules (9 February 2012)

I am in favour of licensing because standards are too low at the moment. I do agree with the person who pointed out that it would reduce the availability of livery and plenty of people could not afford increased prices. You do end up with another welfare issue of what happens to those horses. Change has to be gradual. I do want to stop people setting up livery yards where they lack facilities to give horses proper turnout and shelter. Hate them having to be in all the time or stuck out with no shelter whether man made or natural.


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## Ladydragon (9 February 2012)

gass said:



			he is threatening, abusive and even rants at the young girls who are there, he done this to me yesterday and I have been on the phone scanning the internet since looking for livery options.
		
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Dang...I would be too...  That's bonkers...

Maybe start a different thread asking about liveries in the area - it might be seen by people who've not come into this thread...


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## Bikerchickone (9 February 2012)

I have to say I'm definitely not in favour of licensing livery yards. So many people who keep horses and run livery yards are on a shoe string budget anyway. Licensing this would mean that many would close down and those that were left would have to face increased costs to stay afloat, plus being overwhelmed with demand which would result in rising prices for livery. 

Personally I've been on two licensed yards and both were shocking once you actually got there and saw what went on. One had about a third of the grazing she should have had and lied about when horses were turned out to get her license, the other had the lowest standards I think I've ever seen in a yard and I left there within a few days. Even with the minimum licensing requirements met these yards were awful and we voted with our hooves and left.

I think we are each responsible for making sure our horses are kept in a safe and healthy environment. I don't think licensing can replace the need to look for yourself and ask the right questions. My yard is not licensed, however it is insured, it is safe, the horses are happy and well cared for and my YO works hard to keep it that way, she works 14 hour days, 6 days a week. Ultimately responsibility for a horse lies with the owner and I can't see that changing with licensing, how can it?

BTW I also have heard that all horse's passports should be kept with them at all times, however only one yard I have been on has asked for the passports and these were kept in the kitchen in a cupboard locked with a combination padlock so we could all gain access at any time.


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## Ladydragon (10 February 2012)

bikerchickone said:



			I have to say I'm definitely not in favour of licensing livery yards.
		
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Can't say I'm a massive fan of the idea...  I know mine would close which would be a technical hitch to put it mildly...  It's a working farm and it would be easier for the farmer to re jig the barn, remove the stables and use it for other purposes than take on the extra faffing around with statutory demands and paperwork...  

It's ultra basic DIY and quite inexpensive so a bit extra for them in using a non essential barn and grazing unsuitable for cattle pasture...  But they're the kind of people who stayed with me and cried with me when our yearling had to be put to sleep...  You can't license that sort of care into people...

The buck stops with me for the horses health and wellbeing IMO...  Different to using a kennels for two weeks and expecting 100% responsibility on their behalf whilst going on holiday etc...


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## zaminda (10 February 2012)

I rent a field, so I doubt it would come under the guise of a yard anyway, but I am against liscensing. I too have kept horses on BHS yards, several covered in ragwort, so I can't see the point.  I would never give a YO my horses passport. You only need to produce them if you are moving them, and from my understanding, if you are rushing a horse to a vet they class it as an exception. However, where would he YO keep them? At the yard? (not very secure if there was a break in?) At home? (then have to retrieve them if you  are going out and about?) Sorry, but I have come across my fair share of looney YO and there is no way I would leave them with my horses documentation on a long term basis.


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## Wagtail (10 February 2012)

I really don't see the point in licencing livery yards. Only harm will come of it I'm sure. Surely if you licence yards then you have to licence individuals who keep horses privately too? I mean, if you keep your horse on DIY then it is your responsibility to take care of it, not the YO. Of course if they become aware that there is neglect or cruelty going on they should step in, but I don't see how licencing would help DIY horses anyway. And as for full livery, then again surely any responsible owner would do their own spot checks now and then when the YO aren't expecting them? I know I would. When I first get a new livery they are always here every day, usually at different times for a few weeks before they relax and trust that their horse is being well cared for. I always know when they trust me as suddenly I won't see half as much of them!


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## trottingon (10 February 2012)

Jeez, muck out water and hay before 8.30 am - that's what evenings are for.... I'd never get to work if I had to do all that of a morning!!!


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## fatpiggy (10 February 2012)

trottingon said:



			Jeez, muck out water and hay before 8.30 am - that's what evenings are for.... I'd never get to work if I had to do all that of a morning!!!
		
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And by that token, some us wouldn't get home until midnight if we didn't!  It takes me about an hour to drive to or from work (1.5 hours last night   )  I'm never home before 7.30pm and I leave home at 7.15 am. The thought of having to shovel out my stable after a heavy day driving my desk would have me reaching for the cyanide.  I feed her, make up her breakfast and leave for the 30 minute drive home.  That's plenty for me.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (10 February 2012)

trottingon said:



			Jeez, muck out water and hay before 8.30 am - that's what evenings are for.... I'd never get to work if I had to do all that of a morning!!!
		
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I'd not sit down till v late if I did it all at the end of the day! Nor would DH & I have any evening outings etc



fatpiggy said:



			And by that token, some us wouldn't get home until midnight if we didn't!  It takes me about an hour to drive to or from work (1.5 hours last night   )  I'm never home before 7.30pm and I leave home at 7.15 am. The thought of having to shovel out my stable after a heavy day driving my desk would have me reaching for the cyanide.  I feed her, make up her breakfast and leave for the 30 minute drive home.  That's plenty for me.
		
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My thoughts too, 30mins tops to do mine each work morning-  feed, muckout, hay out, turn out, water & make feeds for pm & next am.
Only a few mins after work to bring in, check over, feed & change rugs as required (if required!)

What suits one doesn't suit another


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## smiffyimp (10 February 2012)

Wagtail said:



			I really don't see the point in licencing livery yards. Only harm will come of it I'm sure. Surely if you licence yards then you have to licence individuals who keep horses privately too? I mean, if you keep your horse on DIY then it is your responsibility to take care of it, not the YO. Of course if they become aware that there is neglect or cruelty going on they should step in, but I don't see how licencing would help DIY horses anyway. And as for full livery, then again surely any responsible owner would do their own spot checks now and then when the YO aren't expecting them? I know I would. When I first get a new livery they are always here every day, usually at different times for a few weeks before they relax and trust that their horse is being well cared for. I always know when they trust me as suddenly I won't see half as much of them!
		
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Although I wouldnt mind licencing, I do agree with the above. At the end of the day if my horse were being neglected I'd move and kick up hell a different way. If I were a YO, I would also expect to maintain a standard of care - I have been on yards where horses have been abandoned due to money issues and in one case was asked by the YO if I could chip in to pay for it - you guessed the answer. As for YO's keeping passports - no way, my passports stay with me! Apart from needing them for comps, they are too easily forged and too many untrustworthy people in the world. The only time my YO has mine is when I am out of the country in case a vet is required, but she is somebody I very much trust

One thing that worries me MUCH more is the electrical safety of a huge majority of yards and I do feel that fire safety checks should be carried out annually. Sadly I feel this would mean some very big bills for a lot of yards posh or scruffy, DIY and Full.


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## lottylove (23 January 2015)

livery yards should be liscenced and the owners should have a duty of care to provide horses adequate stabling free from leaks and very importently good sound fencing. I cannot believe that there are still loads of yards with barbed wire for fencing and worse still damaged barbed wire fencing. My friend lost her horse last year due to barbed wire and my horse went down to role and ended up with the wire caught under his shoes. Its not on and livery owners who take your money  should be required by law to make good any damaged or dangerous fencing by fencing roUnd barbed wire with electric fencing or be CLOSED DOWN


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## lottylove (23 January 2015)

tHE  point of liscencing livery yards is not just to keep the eye on the horses actual wellbeing provided by the owner of said animal but to keep check on the fascilities provided by the yard owner i.e. adequate leak free stabling and saftely fenced paddocks NO BARBED WIRE !


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## The Fuzzy Furry (23 January 2015)

Lottylove, liveries can always choose where to keep their animals, nobody is forced to keep a horse or pony at livery with saggy old barbed wire.  You do have the option to look elsewhere 

Interesting that you have bumped a thread from 2012 :confused3:


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## chocolategirl (23 January 2015)

lottylove said:



			livery yards should be liscenced and the owners should have a duty of care to provide horses adequate stabling free from leaks and very importently good sound fencing. I cannot believe that there are still loads of yards with barbed wire for fencing and worse still damaged barbed wire fencing. My friend lost her horse last year due to barbed wire and my horse went down to role and ended up with the wire caught under his shoes. Its not on and livery owners who take your money  should be required by law to make good any damaged or dangerous fencing by fencing roUnd barbed wire with electric fencing or be CLOSED DOWN
		
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I'm sorry but the onus is on the owner. Your friend chose to keep their horse on this yard, therefore accepted the state of the fencing etc etc and its not until there is an accident that something gets done! Why on earth do people keep their horses on yards like this, it beggars belief! It's yard like this that force yards like mine to keep their prices rock bottom, people need to vote with their feet. It's not rocket science. I know this is a very old thread, but had to get that off my chest. I am truly sorry about the loss of your friends horse.


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## orionstar (23 January 2015)

3Responsibility for animals

So I had a look at Legislation.gov.uk as I seem to spend an awful lot of time on here lately and:

(1)In this Act, references to a person responsible for an animal are to a person responsible for an animal whether on a permanent or temporary basis.
(2)In this Act, references to being responsible for an animal include being in charge of it.
(3)For the purposes of this Act, a person who owns an animal shall always be regarded as being a person who is responsible for it.
(4)For the purposes of this Act, a person shall be treated as responsible for any animal for which a person under the age of 16 years of whom he has actual care and control is responsible.

However there is also a further clause which states
Unnecessary suffering

(1)A person commits an offence if&#8212;
(a)an act of his, or a failure of his to act, causes an animal to suffer,
(b)he knew, or ought reasonably to have known, that the act, or failure to act, would have that effect or be likely to do so,
(c)the animal is a protected animal, and
(d)the suffering is unnecessary.
(2)A person commits an offence if&#8212;
(a)he is responsible for an animal,
(b)an act, or failure to act, of another person causes the animal to suffer,
(c)he permitted that to happen or failed to take such steps (whether by way of supervising the other person or otherwise) as were reasonable in all the circumstances to prevent that happening, and
(d)the suffering is unnecessary.

So livery yard owners would come under part C, as in if the owner was causing a horse to suffer, and a livery owner permitted it, or failed to stop it, then they would be committing an offence under the act.


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## SO1 (23 January 2015)

I am not sure the livery yard owner would be any more responsible than anyone else that might see the animal suffering and not do anything about it.

 The person responsible for the animal is always the owner or if the owner is a person under 16 the person responsible for the child as well as any person who is in charge of the horse. They have not provided a definition of "in charge" but I would not expect YO on pure DIY yard with no services to ever be in charge of the horses especially YO who may not go to the yard every day or at all. I expect this is more relevant in loan situations or where horses are on full or competition livery where the owners have signed a contract saying an named individual is now legally in charge of their horse.

It looks like the owner is always responsible for the animal so even if it is on loan or full livery and someone else is contractually in charge of the horses welfare if something goes wrong and there is a serious welfare issue then could both the person who is in charge and the owner could be prosecuted?. This is probably to try and ensure absent owners take responsibility to check that the people in charge of their horses are caring for them properly.

I expect under the further clause on a DIY yard where the owner is not around much then it might the other liveries who might be more likely to commit an offense if they see something that is a defined as a welfare concern and fail to act. I expect it would not be deemed as reasonable to expect a livery yard owner to be checking all the horses all the time or even at the yard every day if they are not offering services or working on the yard.

What I am not sure about is if the liveries told an absent YO that there was a welfare concern and they failed to act if that would be an offense or what the YO would reasonable be expected to do about it beyond reporting the issue to the RSPCA.


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## minesadouble (24 January 2015)

I agree SO. I speak as a lawyer and cannot see how a YO, particularly DIY, could said to be responsible for a liveried horse. There may be an argument for a YO providing full livery but as far as I am aware there have been no cases involving YOs under this statute.


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