# Totally lost... Getting a horse to work properly on the lunge?



## wench (6 March 2014)

Right... I need all the help I can get. Basically I cannot get my horse to work what I would call "correctly" on the lunge.

I needed to build up her top line, as she was very poor muscle wise. I am not the best rider in the world at getting a horse to work in an outline properly, so lunging encouraging horse to be long and low/swinging through back properly is what was needed. I started in January, and my horse has built up a nice amount of top line along her back and neck. 

I have a pro rider come occasionally to school the horse, and she rode my horse last weekend and said she noticed a massive difference to the way my horse was working, compared to the previous ride in December.

However, I simply just don't seem to be able to get my horse going how I would like in the trot and canter. I've tried her in both a fake kavalkade lunging aid, and side reins, and the results are the same. 

The horse seems to work beautifully in walk (and providing the aid is on the correct setting) really seems to work into it. However the problem arises when you get into trot. I have obviously shortened up the aid a little for the trot work, however all I get is head stuck up in the air, not working through her back, or tracking up properly, looking for things in the car park to spook at, and generally not doing what I'm asking. 

I always try and do some ground work and despooking work before we start lunging so she has a variety to her work. She is not lunged for long, seven minutes in trot and canter on each rein. I've tried lunging her over poles, doesn't work. She lowers her head over the first one, then carries on with the giraffe impression. 

Tried an experiment this evening where I tried putting the side reins on a lot shorter than I would normally do (and before anyone comments no I'm not trying to pull her head into a pretty outline), it was merely to see what happened. We still got the giraffe impression, I haven't got a clue how she managed it. 

I will try and long rein her/lunge with two lines next week, and I also have someone coming out in a few weeks time to help me with the lunging, but in the meantime, any ideas?

Comments such as ride instead, stop forcing horse into a false outline etc are not required, as I have asked for a help on a specific topic!


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## Cortez (6 March 2014)

OK, firstly lunging is a proper skill and not easy, so get some competent help. Secondly, don't walk a horse on the side reins AT ALL; forwards, forwards in trot and canter only. Thirdly, attach your sidereins at the correct point, no higher than the point of the shoulder in a straight line from the roller/saddle to the bit - any higher than this encourages the horse to go above the contact and hollow in a camel-like fashion. Get some help from a professional.


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## wench (6 March 2014)

The side reins are definatly attached in the right place! I do ask the horse to trot on when the pace or quality decreases. This generally results in a tantrum and going into canter, presumably as it's easier!


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## springtime1331 (6 March 2014)

I had this with my newish youngster. Cracked it with the draw rein over the back, under the armpits and attached to head collar side rings. Has worked a treat, and we have now progressed to Swedish style long reining now she understands how to work more correctly. 

http://youtu.be/GkCuVUSt4OM

http://youtu.be/-n5qJPjfsa0


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## be positive (6 March 2014)

If the groundwork and de spooking are done before you lunge, then you are starting in walk for some time before you start trotting the chances are she is getting switched off rather than actively thinking forward, I like to walk for a while just to loosen then up but not expect too much "work", then a period of loose trotting so they get forward, track up and use themselves before starting to ask for transitions and improvement in the way they are going. 
I rarely use aids as I find once they get moving they usually drop the head, lift the back and  swing through, I certainly will not put them on until the horse has loosened up on both reins and is moving well, canter is hard on the lunge and I do not canter  if the horse is not ready, they may choose to do some and I will encourage it but mainly work in trot as I feel an unbalanced canter is best improved when the horse can have more room to find it's balance, putting the head up is a way of balancing usually they learn to drop once they have started to properly go forward.


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## wench (6 March 2014)

springtime1331 said:



			I had this with my newish youngster. Cracked it with the draw rein over the back, under the armpits and attached to head collar side rings. Has worked a treat, and we have now progressed to Swedish style long reining now she understands how to work more correctly. 

http://youtu.be/GkCuVUSt4OM

http://youtu.be/-n5qJPjfsa0

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The kavalkade rip off does the same as draw reins in this arrangement !


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## nikicb (6 March 2014)

How about lunging with no side reins at all?  I used to think they were 'required' to make a horse work 'properly' but having dropped them completely, I am pretty happy with the result.  Top is 'after', bottom is 'before'.


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## wench (6 March 2014)

be positive said:



			If the groundwork and de spooking are done before you lunge, then you are starting in walk for some time before you start trotting the chances are she is getting switched off rather than actively thinking forward, I like to walk for a while just to loosen then up but not expect too much "work", then a period of loose trotting so they get forward, track up and use themselves before starting to ask for transitions and improvement in the way they are going. 
I rarely use aids as I find once they get moving they usually drop the head, lift the back and  swing through, I certainly will not put them on until the horse has loosened up on both reins and is moving well, canter is hard on the lunge and I do not canter  if the horse is not ready, they may choose to do some and I will encourage it but mainly work in trot as I feel an unbalanced canter is best improved when the horse can have more room to find it's balance, putting the head up is a way of balancing usually they learn to drop once they have started to properly go forward.
		
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I have only just introduced cantering on the lunge after five or so weeks of trotting. She gets five mins of trot on each rein and two of canter. 

Left to own devices on the lunge I get a giraffe. This will not help her top line, also instructions from physio that the horse needs to work long and low, and through the back to combat some minor muscle issues


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## wench (6 March 2014)

nikicb said:



			How about lunging with no side reins at all?  I used to think they were 'required' to make a horse work 'properly' but having dropped them completely, I am pretty happy with the result.  Top is 'after', bottom is 'before'.  






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I've tried the without, and it does not look like that at all. The side reins are a recent investment, bought them to see how horse would go in them, as I didn't feel the kavalkade was doing quite what I wanted it to


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## be positive (6 March 2014)

wench said:



			I have only just introduced cantering on the lunge after five or so weeks of trotting. She gets five mins of trot on each rein and two of canter. 

Left to own devices on the lunge I get a giraffe. This will not help her top line, also instructions from physio that the horse needs to work long and low, and through the back to combat some minor muscle issues
		
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5 mins of trot on each rein is probably not enough if she is not going forward or working from behind during that time, if you want to get her through she may take far longer to start to settle down to some decent work, putting gadgets on will possibly get the head where you want it but will not engage the engine, that has to come first, if she does not understand what is required it may be easier for both of you, and more effective to get it ridden when you can have more immediate influence of what is going on.


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## nikicb (6 March 2014)

wench said:



			I've tried the without, and it does not look like that at all. The side reins are a recent investment, bought them to see how horse would go in them, as I didn't feel the kavalkade was doing quite what I wanted it to
		
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I am not familiar with the gadget you are referring to, but it took a while for my horse to work like that.  Even my 21 year old Arab x now goes along with his back swinging, and apparently he "didn't lunge" when I bought him 3 years ago.  I agree he didn't at first, he stood straight up, but he now does this, which is almost too much:


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## BBP (7 March 2014)

I also lunge without anything and have better results with that than anything else. But I have learned that it takes him at least 15 mins to really warm up and work forwards. Before that he doesn't track up and will stick his head in the air. Once he is warm (so after your 14 mins I guess) he drops his nose to the floor and really swings along. I'm not a fan of lunging for ages, so sometimes I'll hop on and ride bareback to warm him up then lunge after. Like you my horse has some muscular issues in his back and I'm not the best rider so I think the odd lunging session really helps him to learn to work forwards and stretch.

So maybe try going for a hack or something to warm up then lunge her, for a bit longer than normal if needs be, and see what happens. Good luck.


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## Mavis007 (7 March 2014)

Have you tried a Pessoa or equi-ami?  You will hear views for and against but I think some horses work better in 1 "gadget" than another. Personally I use a Pessoa and find it works very well. Do introduce it slowly and looser initially and warm up without it first as it makes them work hard. I think the photos of the horses working really nicely without anything are fantastic, but if your horse has got firmly stuck in bad habits you are very unlikely to achieve that without help- either from gadgets or a pro!


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## Nannon (7 March 2014)

Mine won't work nicely without anything - occasionally he will stretch down but mostly quite enjoys charging about with his head as high as it can go then bombing off in canter like a lunatic! 
I use a Pessoa now and again, which works wonderfully for him, lovely and loose through his back. Side reins are a hit and miss - too loose and he hollows badly, so I tried putting them through 2 rings on my roller and he really likes that and worked really well. 
Also did the draw reins thing but from between front legs through bit and onto roller - he worked nicely but I didn't feel too happy with that set up as draw reins have no give in them so he couldn't stretch down and forwards as much as I would like?
I think it's trial and error with different methods and bits of kit!


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## chestnut cob (7 March 2014)

I have tried lots of things with mine and nothing works.  Have tried a Kavalkade (well, cheap draw reins, but the principle is the same), lungeing with 2 lines, side reins to the side of the roller and also between legs.  He absolutely detests anything like that, regardless of how loosely they are done up.  He runs faster and faster, panics and just fights it.  Even if it is loose, he will suck back his neck, tuck his chin to his chest, dip his back and just run.  Gets himself really quite worried and nervous.  Spends the whole time crooked, head to outside, quarters in, randomly tanking off, jogging, refusing to stop trotting or cantering (whatever pace he has taken off in).  I've given up with gadgets and now lunge with the bridle on (remove reins) and headcollar over the top, with lunge line over his nose (running along the headcollar strap over nose).  We have to start really slowly with me walking next to him for 5 mins, lots of walk-halt-stand-walk, then walk-halt-rein back-walk, walking a circle and asking him to step through & across with inside hind, then I gradually let him out on to a larger circle.  This seems to work because he will then walk on nicely, stretch right down, and make nice, controlled, soft transitions into trot, going forwards into trot rather than "up" into it doing a giraffe impression.

I've only lunged this way a few times but he is now trotting sensibly (instead of as described above), isn't in a blind panic, can work on transitions (between and within paces).  He is learning to stretch in trot too.  The results aren't instant but it is nice to see him swinging along and starting to stretch, rather than just tense and resistant on the lunge.

My last horse worked well in both the Kavalkade/ draw rein setup, and lungeing with 2 lines.


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## TarrSteps (7 March 2014)

Just to the point, many horses have to be taught how to react correctly to whatever gadget you're using, it's not always a case of slap it on and off you go. Obviously in many cases this approach does work but if you've got one that is struggling and you're determined to go that route, then take the time to educate the horse. If you start down a cycle of panic/fighting then it's much harder to come back from and you often end up with a horse that "doesn't longe". For that reason I always spend a few minutes in hand and then going very slowly to make sure the horse understands and can comply with what the gadget is telling him. (That said, I longe most horses without anything now, unless I have a very specific goal which I think can be expedited by the right equipment.) 

For horses that refuse to work in any sort of restriction, I get a bit suspicious, although I'm not bothered by it. My experience is they have a niggle somewhere or a small issue with their general straightness etc and the force (and don't mistake, gadgets are about "force" even it's very low key - otherwise what would be the point of them?) If this doesn't bother them in any other capacity I'm inclined to live and let live if possible, so long as the horse will longe "naked". (I think it's an essential skill, although if the horse is doing a very specific job well and is older, I might even let that slide.)


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## chestnut cob (7 March 2014)

TarrSteps said:



			For horses that refuse to work in any sort of restriction, I get a bit suspicious, although I'm not bothered by it. My experience is they have a niggle somewhere or a small issue with their general straightness etc and the force (and don't mistake, gadgets are about "force" even it's very low key - otherwise what would be the point of them?) If this doesn't bother them in any other capacity I'm inclined to live and let live if possible, so long as the horse will longe "naked". (I think it's an essential skill, although if the horse is doing a very specific job well and is older, I might even let that slide.)
		
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Mine definitely has/ had some straightness issues which are improving with work.  So possibly this is why he has struggled with lungeing.  He is sound (been seen by vet and a good, qualified, chartered physio) but definitely less supple to one side, but then aren't they all.  He was markedly less supple on the right maybe 12 months ago; in hand work has really helped this.  When I started he couldn't even walk on a 20m circle properly, would swing his inside hind in rather than use it.  He isn't lame and never has been, just lacked a lot of suppleness and straightness.  Now he's pretty even on both reins and far more supple, so maybe that's why his lungeing is improving...

I don't think lungeing, with or without gadgets, is the answer to everything.  I want my horse to lunge correctly, but I also think long reining, lungeing with 2 lines, and in hand work all have their place alongside ridden work.


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## applecart14 (7 March 2014)

Just remember that 20 mins lunging is the equivalent of an hours riding.  It is extremely tiring for a horse and a tired horse soon becomes an injured horse!

I only lunge about once a month and always make sure that the surface is as good as I an get it.  I always lunge on a really long lunge line too to prevent any extra pressure on tendons on a tighter circle and I always limit it to a maximum of 20 minutes or 30 if I do pole work and lunging over jumps.

I personally hate all this gadget stuff and just lunge of a snaffle bridle or more recently by dually which gives me even greater control.  I like riding i the dually too!  Occassionally I use two reins to lunge if the horse is being disobedient in halt as it makes it incredibly easy to teach and if I use a roller I will sometimes put the outer lunge line around his bum like a pessoa and back to the pessoa but I always make sure it is as loose as possible.


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## applecart14 (7 March 2014)

nikicb said:



			I am not familiar with the gadget you are referring to, but it took a while for my horse to work like that.  Even my 21 year old Arab x now goes along with his back swinging, and apparently he "didn't lunge" when I bought him 3 years ago.  I agree he didn't at first, he stood straight up, but he now does this, which is almost too much:






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Its good for them to do this!  Let them have a stretch.


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## Wheels (7 March 2014)

I'm another who lunges without artificial aids - just a lunge cavesson and line.  It takes a while for them to get it sometimes (weeks, sometimes months) so it's not something that you should expect will show immediate improvements.

When riding, I do not concentrate on the head - I concentrate on the forward movement, ensuring any circles or serpentines are conducted with the correct amount of flexion and bend, ensuring we complete many transitions, circle sizes and changes of rein.  I do exactly the same when lunging and this is what eventually turns into the horse working more correctly.


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## nikicb (7 March 2014)

applecart14 said:



			Its good for them to do this!  Let them have a stretch.
		
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I do let him stretch!   I meant the 'too much' because he nearly scrapes his nose on the ground.  He got into the habit because I used to lunge him in the field and he would grab a blade of grass or two if he could.  Cheeky pony.


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## TarrSteps (7 March 2014)

applecart14 said:



			Just remember that 20 mins lunging is the equivalent of an hours riding.  It is extremely tiring for a horse and a tired horse soon becomes an injured horse!

I only lunge about once a month and always make sure that the surface is as good as I an get it.  I always lunge on a really long lunge line too to prevent any extra pressure on tendons on a tighter circle and I always limit it to a maximum of 20 minutes or 30 if I do pole work and lunging over jumps.

I personally hate all this gadget stuff and just lunge of a snaffle bridle or more recently by dually which gives me even greater control.  I like riding i the dually too!  Occassionally I use two reins to lunge if the horse is being disobedient in halt as it makes it incredibly easy to teach and if I use a roller I will sometimes put the outer lunge line around his bum like a pessoa and back to the pessoa but I always make sure it is as loose as possible.
		
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This is a very good point.  Most people longe for longer than they ever ride, at least at faster gaits.  This CAN be a benefit but something to keep in mind


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## martlin (7 March 2014)

I generally lunge in a bridle only (or a headcollar for the polite ones), but when it comes to ''gadgets'', a chambon and a lunge whip will be my choice every time - and patience, it takes a while to get them to do what I want.


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## whizzer (7 March 2014)

Sounds very similar to how mine can be on the lunge. Over the years I've experimented with loads of stuff but found a harbridge very useful on him. I presume by fake Kavalkade,you made the draw reins over the back? I mostly use this method now as works very well with mine. If I do use side reins they're placed very low,down near the elbows. I was advised to do this by my last instructor(very experienced dressage judge), I had to get rings put on my roller as none of the existing ones were low enough. It was a long process getting my horse to work properly on the lunge,literally took me years to encourage him to stretch down,he will now also stretch with no aids on at all but at times I never thought I'd see that day! I also eventually gave up with canter on the lunge & just walk & trot.


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## muddy_grey (7 March 2014)

I use a kavalkade for lunging and have found it really useful.  There would be no point lunging my mare "naked" as she would be a loony!  She never bucks under saddle, but seems to think lunging is the best time to practise.  I don't use it very tight, but it is enough to make her concentrate rather than buckaroo

I am no expert, but here is what I do

I don't think there is a gadget that will make horse work properly on it's own, without simply strapping them down.  I agree with others that you need to focus on getting her really forwards, then play about with the pace.  If you can get her really responsive to your voice then that will help.  Once warmed up I spend 5 mins on each rein working in walk and trot and do masses of transitions.  10 strides trot, 10 walk then 8 or 12 etc.  Also I ask her to slow the trot and then move on and do "almost walk transitions".  I then do another 5 mins on each rein adding in canter, but repeating the exercises with canter, trot and walk.  She almost never does a whole circle at one speed and this ensures she is focussed on me, which then allows her to stretch/relax.  I am always chatting /singing away to her to stop her being distracted, I have even had other horses being lunged at the same time doing what I am asking due to my constant chatter.

It takes time to get it right.  Just persevere and try to get her really listening to you.  Praise her when she stretches down and send her forwards when she resists.  Hopefully you should get there in the end.


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## amandaco2 (7 March 2014)

Mine work really nicely usually stretch lower than this, but the coloured took a while to understand. Usually the neck is lower but could only find these, trot usually equates to nose almost nr sand 
Focus on rhythm helped her


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## lizness (7 March 2014)

I have best results with horse that woulfdn't work in anything with lunging with two reins(tried pessoa, side reins, etc. One off bit (inside) outside rein through roller hoop and round above hocks / under tail. You can control what horse is doing rather than fixed gadgets. You need a decent length line though.


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## amandaco2 (7 March 2014)




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## amandaco2 (7 March 2014)

I found similar to riding...so transitions, forward in a rhythm.


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## Mike007 (7 March 2014)

Just remember that 20 mins lunging is the equivalent of an hours riding. It is extremely tiring for a horse and a tired horse soon becomes an injured horse!. Thanks TS , I did not realise this.  I know you and trust you so I am prepared to take tis at face value.


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## TarrSteps (7 March 2014)

Mike007 said:



			Just remember that 20 mins lunging is the equivalent of an hours riding. It is extremely tiring for a horse and a tired horse soon becomes an injured horse!. Thanks TS , I did not realise this.  I know you and trust you so I am prepared to take tis at face value.
		
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I didn't quite say that (it was applecart's math)- I think you can't quantify that exactly and so much depends on what sort of work you're doing. But it's true that very few riders would trot steadily for 15 or 20 minutes (set your clock and try it, it's a looooong time) on a single circle but many people think nothing of doing it on the longe.

That can be the benefit of longeing before riding, of course. The horse is tired and the rider is not!


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## Mike007 (7 March 2014)

Thanks for the expansion on the explanation.As said I do value your opinions.


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## Gleeful Imp (8 March 2014)

I also had to follow a physio rehab programme for damaged back muscles. My mare had significant problems that meant stretching was essential, didn't have the option of weeks or months to teach her with only a head collar etc. physio recommended use of a pair of draw reins, over the back, under the elbows, attached to the bit. At a legnth to encourage her to keep her head below her withers. 
But, and here's the but, this had to be done slowly. And lots of transitions too. We also used raised poles a lot. Worked wonders!

Shame we sorted her back (though no idea what caused it, wasn't saddle related) then she broke behind and did her suspensory. Horses.


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## wench (8 March 2014)

Gleeful Imp said:



			I also had to follow a physio rehab programme for damaged back muscles. My mare had significant problems that meant stretching was essential, didn't have the option of weeks or months to teach her with only a head collar etc. physio recommended use of a pair of draw reins, over the back, under the elbows, attached to the bit. At a legnth to encourage her to keep her head below her withers. 
But, and here's the but, this had to be done slowly. And lots of transitions too. We also used raised poles a lot. Worked wonders!

Shame we sorted her back (though no idea what caused it, wasn't saddle related) then she broke behind and did her suspensory. Horses.
		
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This is quite pertinent to my horse. If I take the draw rein arrangement off she will go into giraffe mode again, which will then counteract the process I've made with her. I can imagine it will take time to teach her to stretch on the lunge without a gadget.

She doesn't have a bad back, or any serious problems, just a couple of niggles from not being worked properly, and being allowed to giraffe by previous owners. 

For her own Benifit she needs to work over her back in some semblance in lunging and ridden work


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