# Springer spaniels .- daft question!



## Fools Motto (3 March 2013)

I think I'm being daft in asking this, but as I'm no expert on the breed in question here goes.

When pups are born, either black/white or liver/white, they are Born with their markings and as such these markings can not and don't change. Right? 


Owner of said pup, has asked me to find out about breeder, who it seems has told many lies and it really seems that pup is not from the litter, as photo of litter shows pups and not one has pups markings.... Not to mention dates don't add up, no microchip and not kc registered all as said in advert.....  But just checking facts on markings... Help!!


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## Cinnamontoast (3 March 2013)

How old is the pup now? One of mine became more roany and developed spots galore as he got older, but the spots were visible on the pigmented skin early on. 

Pups change hugely in very few months, but should be recognisable looking at my first ever pics of mine then same pose at 18 months. The face is maybe your best indicator and particular markings from one side. Hard to say a pup is not one of a blur of ten running round in an advert picture. 

Best to speak to the breeder, best to source a pup from somewhere ethical, not that I can talk!


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## Fools Motto (3 March 2013)

Pup is now 6 months. She is also tiny, as in jack Russell small. She runs under my whippet x's tummy!!...  She, otherwise appears healthy now but had a major health scare on day 2 of owner owning her as it turned out she had a 'knot' of intestine that had to be removed. 

Regarding markings, I'm not talking the mottling, I'm referring to the large liver patches... They can't 'morph' into each other creating land as opposed to islands?!!!


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## Superhot (4 March 2013)

Seems your friend may well have bought a pup from a puppy farmer.  Why no pedigree papers?  I guess you could have a DNA test to see what breed it actually is.  Can you put a photo on here so we can guess the breed???  Whatever it turns out to be, it sounds as though your friend loves it and will keep it, but, if it's not a Springer, then perhaps Trading Standards or her local council need to be informed.  Have a word with the local dog warden, they usually have their ear to the ground


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## Cinnamontoast (4 March 2013)

No, the splotches don't merge! At 6 months, she ought to be a good deal bigger, I would've thought. 

DNA testing is very vague and won't tell you much more than you know, I fear i. e. she might not a springer. These are mine (boys) at 9 weeks:






They were big lads and are taller than my older one, but I don't think being able to go under a whippet x is normal at 6 months. I wonder if she's more working cocker? They are pretty teeny. Could we have a pic?


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## Fools Motto (4 March 2013)

With my whippetX













So say the litter;






This was dated 11.8.12, but owner told they were born 16.8.12   13 in litter, lost 1... born by c-sec (this is what I've found out so far!) Not sure what is relevant or not though!  

Will put more pictures up later...


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## MurphysMinder (4 March 2013)

She looks more working cocker in size and head shape to me, not that I know a huge amount about spaniels.  My first thought on seeing the picture of the litter is that the "breeders" haven't exactly got her in a purpose built whelping box.  Also if she didn't have help (i.e. supplementary feeding for pups) for such a large litter, particularly after a caesarian, then it is quite likely the pups would be quite a bit smaller than normal.  Of course that could be a wrong assumption and pups could have been receiving extra.


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## s4sugar (4 March 2013)

The only one of the pups it could possibly match is the one half hidden by the bitch's hind leg but a photo of the "cocker" from the other side or above would be enough to check.

Dates on photos are not gospel as they can reset every time you drop the batteries out but I would say working cocker or cross from the photo.
Do they have a copy of the advert or any paperwork from the breeder? Pedigree perhaps or docking certificate?


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## paulineh (4 March 2013)

It does look small , but again if it had a bad start in life that could be he reason.

If you google " six month old Springer Spaniel" then go to images you will see a lot of pictures of 6month old dogs


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## Fools Motto (4 March 2013)

2 more photos













I'm afraid I stalked the breeders face book, and indeed on the 11.8.12 she posted the photo of her bitch and those puppies, stating '13, only lost 1, **** had a c-sec'.  On pups 'documents' that owner does have, states she was born from **** on 16.8.12. Owner does have the vets certificate of docking and dew-clawing them though. I have a copy of the advert, posted on line via 'free-ads', and in that advert it says 'KC registered, wormed, de-flea'd and micro-chipped'. No chip has been found, and the KC are unaware of the litter.  However, owner has very briefly got in touch with the breeder, who claims she has a year to register them, and it would only be able to register them when all the details come back to her from the other new owners regarding their pups names and colouring. - Is this possible?

Also, just to ad, that on the advert for these puppies, there is indeed a photo which shows 4 pups, but advertises for 5 and one of those 4 could be the pup in question, but I really don't think she is in the litter posted above.

And, further more, on more FB stalking, the breeder has posted a photo of the 'puppy packs' (good!) with the names of the new owners linking them to boy/girl ... there are 11 packs, and none have pup in questions name, or owner name... breeder claims she was keeping 1.... 

I just feel uneasy about this. Last correspondence from breeder;

'haha I remember who you are, you were the one who rung up cause your pup was ill and was trying to make it out like it was my fault! Hassle from the start! I'm normally quite fussy to who the pups go to, but when there's 13 in the litter, I had to let a few go to ''who-ever'', shame really, oh well!
........
Not had a single problem from any of the other 11 puppy owners, all very happy! .....''But there is always one''


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## noodle_ (4 March 2013)

more like working cocker size as another poster stated....

i have a working cocker and a springer x collie (who is more collie size and stance)

the springer looks tiny!!


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## s4sugar (4 March 2013)

Certainly not one of that litter pictured.
What does the docking certificate say as she should have been microchipped for that to be legal. You should have the microchip number so check it with petlog or check with the docking vet.
No reason to not register but if you have a pedigree you can phone the kennel club to check if the parents are registered.
(Or put the parents names in on the healt pages which will show if the parents are registered)


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## Alec Swan (4 March 2013)

I've looked and looked and gone through your pics thoroughly,  and that little 6 month old bitch,  is NOT amongst those puppies which the bitch is suckling.  Puppies will "roan out",  and puppies will have a very slight change to their patch shapes,  but as you say,  land doesn't appear and disappear.

If the breeder states that the pup in question was one of those born on the 11th. August,  then presumably,  if they were all legally docked,  then the pup will carry a micro chip.  Let us assume that the chip has failed,  and it can happen,  I would contact the Kennel Club,  and Trading Standards,  a competent vet will support the fact that the puppy which you've photographed isn't amongst that litter.  Encourage Trading Standards to seek out the Vet who docked and chipped the litter of twelve,  and enquire as to the current owners of the 12 pups.  Come to that,  if you have the docking certificate in front of you,  then you will be able to see for yourself who the administering Vet was.  If the vendor hasn't "Bothered",  to register the pups yet,  because she has a year in which to do it,  then I'll lay you a serious wager,  that there has been no legal docking,  none of the pups have been chipped,  and it's a simple case of fraud and illegal docking of dogs.  I may well be wrong,  but as you say,  there's enough to raise serious doubt..

Now to the pup itself;  looking at the bitch which is suckling those puppies,  I would be surprised if she was the dam of the pup which you've featured,  BUT,  I have to say that she's a very smart looking puppy,  she obviously makes eye contact,  which matters,  and I'll admit that I rather like her.  It would also surprise me if that puppy is a registered and pedigree Springer.

I'd be interested to hear how you progress,  and in your shoes,  I would persevere.

Alec.


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## Fools Motto (4 March 2013)

Looking at the copy of the document indicating the tail docking and micro-chip..

Tells me, it was performed on the 20.8.12 (ie pups 4 days old - or 9/10 days old!) Local vets to myself, signed and stamped. (never seen this sort of document before, so I assume because of signing and stamping it is legit!?) Does claim she was indeed micro-chipped, BUT on talking to owner they had to have her done as she was not chipped, and the breeder reduced the fee by £20 to allow for this?  No mention of breeding on papers here, no bitch or stud dog name, just the breeders name, address and the vet in question.


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## noodle_ (4 March 2013)

if its any help my dog was born in march 2011 and was legally docked........

but not chipped?

i didnt knwo they had to have both done? (hes chipped now anyhow)... and the docking was a waste of space as only a 1/4 of his tail has gone.....it isnt even a stump lol


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## s4sugar (4 March 2013)

They have to be microchipped at the vet practice for the certificate to be legal.
The DEFRA sample certificate page is down but this is a legal page - http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/1120/schedule/2/made


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## PorkChop (4 March 2013)

noodle_ said:



			if its any help my dog was born in march 2011 and was legally docked........

but not chipped?

i didnt knwo they had to have both done? (hes chipped now anyhow)... and the docking was a waste of space as only a 1/4 of his tail has gone.....it isnt even a stump lol 

Click to expand...

Legally they should be microchipped if they are docked.

They usually take the last 1/4 or a 1/3 of the tail, as it is only the end of the tail that can cause problems.


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## PorkChop (4 March 2013)

I would say your puppy has more of a cocker look about its face.  But the size wouldn't be a determining factor.

The trailing springers can be quite small, especially the bitches.


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## Fools Motto (4 March 2013)

Spoken to the vets who docked the pups... and

it seems like the breeder is trying to 'flog' a further 10 pups under the ''breeding'' of the brood bitch in photo. There is indeed 2 litters of pups, one 13 (lost 1) and the following week a litter of 10 (pup in question). This litter may or may not be 'springer spaniels'!  Breeder has been in trouble before with paper work, and the vets are not happy with her.

Plot thickens... more phone calls I feel...


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## Cinnamontoast (4 March 2013)

Ooh, fascinating stuff! Defo not in the litter picture. Pic of her being held looks a normal size for a 6 month pup, especially a bitch. I'll have a look for mine at 5 months in a video.


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## Cinnamontoast (4 March 2013)

Mine at 5 months, nearly as big as the older working bred liver and white dog.

http://s273.photobucket.com/albums/...firstrun_zps50e2a782.mp4&evt=user_media_share

Showed my OH the pic of her next to your whippet x without telling him the story, he says springer. I don't see anything else in there. Remember springers and cookers used to be the same thing, separated only by size. 

Is your mate bothered? Did she specifically want a KC registered for field trials and/or showing? The breeder is meant to register the litter and give you the paperwork to sign over ownership on the day of sale, normally, I think (could be wrong here!). Did your mate pay over the odds? The breeder had two litters close together, therefore. Isn't possible she's mixed up the paperwork/pictures?


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## Crugeran Celt (4 March 2013)

Am I the only one who thinks the pup looks a little King charlesish? He has the slightly 'poppy' eyes. I have an unregistered springer that couldn'd be registered due to the litter being born within 12 months of the last litter and the only difference in her coat is that she has become a little more 'spotted' on her front legs and chest. It looks a nice little pup though and like my 'sprollie' who was bought as a pure springer I am sure you will love him just the same.


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## CorvusCorax (4 March 2013)

This is why I ding on about traceability and accountability!!

The pic could be two or three litters thrown in together, you would just never know as there is no paper trail or identification.

The owner has been sold a pup, in every sense of the term, hopefully there will be no heritable problems and they did not pay too much.

Breeder sounds thoroughly unscrupulous and I would like to think the vet would warn future potential buyers rather than just accept the cheques and say thanks.


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## Alec Swan (4 March 2013)

Fools Motto said:



			Spoken to the vets who docked the pups... and

.......

Plot thickens... more phone calls I feel...
		
Click to expand...

Trading Standards.  Tomorrow morning.

Alec.


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## CorvusCorax (4 March 2013)

Or taxman.

The thing is, without ID/papertrail and if sale was made in cash, there is nothing to stop the breeder turning around and saying 'I didn't breed it/sell it'.

Having said that, if it is a 'one litter on the ground, another on the way' operation it should be plain to anyone who decides to pay a home visit what is going on


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## s4sugar (4 March 2013)

Messages and Facebook posts will count - as will pups being sold without microchips if docked.
Please save/screenshot all FB stuff, adverts and any messages you have.


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## CorvusCorax (4 March 2013)

Good idea S4S


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## debsandpets (4 March 2013)

Fools Motto said:



			2 more photos













I'm afraid I stalked the breeders face book, and indeed on the 11.8.12 she posted the photo of her bitch and those puppies, stating '13, only lost 1, **** had a c-sec'.  On pups 'documents' that owner does have, states she was born from **** on 16.8.12. Owner does have the vets certificate of docking and dew-clawing them though. I have a copy of the advert, posted on line via 'free-ads', and in that advert it says 'KC registered, wormed, de-flea'd and micro-chipped'. No chip has been found, and the KC are unaware of the litter.  However, owner has very briefly got in touch with the breeder, who claims she has a year to register them, and it would only be able to register them when all the details come back to her from the other new owners regarding their pups names and colouring. - Is this possible?

Also, just to ad, that on the advert for these puppies, there is indeed a photo which shows 4 pups, but advertises for 5 and one of those 4 could be the pup in question, but I really don't think she is in the litter posted above.

And, further more, on more FB stalking, the breeder has posted a photo of the 'puppy packs' (good!) with the names of the new owners linking them to boy/girl ... there are 11 packs, and none have pup in questions name, or owner name... breeder claims she was keeping 1.... 

I just feel uneasy about this. Last correspondence from breeder;

'haha I remember who you are, you were the one who rung up cause your pup was ill and was trying to make it out like it was my fault! Hassle from the start! I'm normally quite fussy to who the pups go to, but when there's 13 in the litter, I had to let a few go to ''who-ever'', shame really, oh well!
........
Not had a single problem from any of the other 11 puppy owners, all very happy! .....''But there is always one''
		
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It is actually not upto the breeder to get the puppy microchipped, but upto the new owner and their veterinary practice.  I used to breed ESS (stopped last year). We would get them legally docked and give certification to new owners. On their first visit to the new owners vet practice they should have been asked for proof of docking and then microchip implanting - this is due to many working dogs being chipped by breeders, but the new owners not changing ownership details with chip company.
The pups when born will have their block of colour (as these bits are obvious in size and depth of colour), but the roaning and larger spots will appear over time, and they may well change shape considerably during growth eg one pup we kept had a perfect guitar shape on her back at birth, but after about 4 months-ish you could no longer tell what it was. Another of her litter mates had a dead cert willy and balls shape down the centre of his back - hence he got called Willie lol, but now it is just a long large blob.  Both Jovi and Willie didn't get their full roaning colourations till nearly a year old.
Also you get two types of ESS working (can be as small as a cocker can be large) and the show types that are far more stocky.  She simply looks like a small working type springer to me - I have 4 ESS 2 large show types and 2 small workers as well. Barney the dad is a 23 kg lump, his daughter Jovi is a 15 kg rocket, so you can get huge size differences in the breed, just like humans, horses and ponies within their breed standards.


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## MurphysMinder (5 March 2013)

Regardless of what breed the pup is, the breeders comments are totally disgusting.
I'm normally quite fussy to who the pups go to, but when there's 13 in the litter, I had to let a few go to ''who-ever'', shame really, oh well!

No, if you have a large litter you just keep them longer until you have found the right homes , but then again they are normally only "quite" fussy.  Not for a minute suggesting that your friend is anything but a great home but obviously the breeder couldn't give a damn.
They are also talking b*****ks re registration,you do not need any input from the new owners, most people register their litters within a week of birth thus ensuring papers are back to go to the new owners.
I hope your friend goes after this breeder, be it with TS the taxman or whoever else.  I also think think if the vet had problems before with this breeder they should perhaps have enquired a little further before docking the tails.


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## Suzie86 (6 March 2013)

Willow had a little liver dot on the top of her head so the breeder nicknamed her dotty - now at 6 months the dot has disappeared as the liver has kind of closed in over the top of her head - will try and post piccies  bit different to your situation though!


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## noodle_ (6 March 2013)

this is my working cocker - he's diddy  (as im used to collies/springers)
















you can see his tail ^^^ its quite long imo


he was docked at a few days old... no chip from his breeder - we did that.... i didnt know tbh how it all worked - we would have had him regardless - docked or not.


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## Crugeran Celt (6 March 2013)

noodle, that dog is absolutely gorgeous. I have tried to talk OH into having a working cocker but to be honest he was very reluctant to have springers after the labradors so I think a cocker is a sacrifice to far for him. Will have to show him your photos if anything will change his mind that beautiful little face will.


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## noodle_ (6 March 2013)

Crugeran Celt said:



			noodle, that dog is absolutely gorgeous. I have tried to talk OH into having a working cocker but to be honest he was very reluctant to have springers after the labradors so I think a cocker is a sacrifice to far for him. Will have to show him your photos if anything will change his mind that beautiful little face will.
		
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Thank you 

hes our little star but very expensive  - he eats everything (see other threads)! but we love him anyhow!!

for example;








surprised he's made it to one this month  its his first birthday 




show him this;;; will make him change his mind then!!!  but defo working cockers over KC reg ones!

]


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## Crugeran Celt (6 March 2013)

Oh dear not sure I want one like that!! Our labradors were very destructive and they never grew out of it. We have been spoilt with the springers they have never destroyed anything. The little one carries socks, slippers or pants but never rips them apart. Yours is very handsome though I bet he gets away with anything just by looking at you.


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## noodle_ (6 March 2013)

he does - he' a git!!  i love labs - they are fab dogs!...


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## Fools Motto (9 March 2013)

Latest update!

KC papers have been delivered... BUT the bitch is not 'Meg', as previous correspondence suggested (we clearly knew this though, thanks to 'evidence' on facebook). The stud dog, is simply a name, it has never been mentioned before. We have no more details about him.
Contacted the KC, and they have no record of the breeder at the address stated, but do have 4 previous 'Meg' litters under the name of a male at that address. The 'breeder' of this pup, is now registered under another address of another local town according to KC.
The girls FB still states she is where the pup came from..
The pups DOB has been altered by 1 day
and... the vet practice where she got her tail docked, is excluding the girl (breeder) from any further involvement with them - due to major irregularities with paper work resulting in ''serious consequences''  (don't sure how to read that).

BUT, the most important thing, the pup, Pebbles, is totally adorable, and as a previous 'not my cup of tea' regarding the breed, she has converted me (don't tell anyone!)


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## MasterBenedict (9 March 2013)

I know a pure springer than is absolutely tiny - probably the same size as your but over 2 years old!!

BUT - she has serious health issues including diabetes  

She is the silliest, sweetest things know and just because your friends dog is on the small size I wouldn't necessarily question the dog being a pure bred. I can't myself see any other breed in there.

The dog I know - 













You can see in this photo she is 1/2 to 1/3 the size of her play mate!


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