# Creating 'flashy' dressage paces in the Medium/Advanced Horse?



## 007Equestrian (31 July 2017)

Hi all! I have an ISH (3/4 draught) gelding who is currently very established at medium level and has started competing this summer at advanced medium. I aspire to get to PSG however am starting to hit a road block with his paces. He can do grand prix angle half pass fairly easily, working pirouettes, all other lateral work is very established. However at a recent championship, despite him making zero mistakes in his medium test, we couldn't get higher than 6.5/7 for his movements. The judges comments were essentially that he lacks 'flair' in his paces. Think nice show hunter rather than Valegro!

We struggle with extensions in trot and canter as while he can canter on the spot and is working on piaffe half steps, he struggles to sit and push forwards. This translates to his paces, they lack that moment of suspension and lift that even very novice well bred warmbloods have naturally.

Are we stuck with what we've got? I thought working on collection would translate to more cadence however I'm feeling quite down about our recent results. Flashy movers who made multiple mistakes were 4%+ higher than our very correct but probably 'boring' test. I'm beginning to feel a bit 'stuck', and selling and buying a warmblood is not an option haha.

If anyone has any exercises to develop extensions and flashier paces in the more advanced horse (any posts I've found have been tailored more to the novice horse learning medium trots for example trotting out hacking) please share!


----------



## milliepops (31 July 2017)

Ha!  Are you me?!  Millie is the same. Knocking on the door of doing her first advanced but I'm viewing it totally from the point  of getting experience for me, rather than scores for her.  She went out and got a 72% at medium last week... and then the AM she did half an hour later attracted a comment saying correct but she needed more cadence in the paces.  We had the same at our area festival earlier in the year.

She can do all the work well, she has activity, balance, collection, suppleness, push (mostly - I don't train extensions any more due to field injuries so they are a bit pot luck on the day but usually reliable). But she will never have that suspension... I'm choosing to ignore it.  I also don't have the funds to buy a posh horse with the paces pre-installed, the one that's coming up behind Millie is a section D FGS   

Getting good extensions is a different thing to getting the flash in the paces though I think... Certainly I can improve those by really concentrating on getting the hindlegs snapping UNDER rather than pushing out behind, playing with extending in shoulder in, eg. really helps to get the power where I need it. That and straightness, so not having one hindleg pushing away from the centre of gravity, general reactivity, starting from a good powerful uphill trot, pulling into the contact.. That stuff gets better just by practicing it more.

I feel that Kira will develop more expression despite her diminutive size because I *think* she will passage fairly easily, she has to learn to stay quick but she has a natural "hanging" trot that is not correct but it illustrates more talent/inclination to that kind of work.


----------



## tristar (31 July 2017)

probably get murdered for saying this, but, if its working at that level and not improving or showing pace development the training is wrong, as the paces improve at the level currently being worked on , that is the signal move on to the next stage.

the whole point of training is that the training improves the overall horse and its way of working including  its paces.


----------



## HufflyPuffly (31 July 2017)

I kind of agree and disagree with you tristar. 

With mine who is at the med/adv med level, she has certainly improved with the work required at this level, particularly the canter, using simple and flying changes and the pirouette canter have made a huge difference to strengthening and stopping the 4 beat canter she was apt to slip into. 

However she will always struggle with extensions, her breeding and confo mean the knees come up and she struggles with the concept of moving the shoulder and leg forward. With her we are still missing the lightbulb moment of sit and push forward, not up , it is slowly coming but I am not waiting at the lower levels until it does so we accept our 6's with pride .

I'm planning to really start working on her passage and half steps to see if this will get the penny to drop a little more, as although SI and the lateral work has made a big difference it hasn't got the whole message across yet. There is the other issue that it is the blind leading the blind and it could just be me that is rubbish at teaching her to lengthen, but baby horse is showing great potential for them so hopefully it's not just the rubbish rider with Topaz .


----------



## milliepops (31 July 2017)

Hmm I am also not sure I agree - some horse come out of the womb waving their legs around their ears and some have more workmanlike paces... training can surely improve the paces of the less naturally dazzling and personally I know it's training that has taken my horse from having a downhill unbalanced way of going, to being able to balance on the hindleg and be really rideable... and therefore develop the paces, but some are at a definite advantage right from the start, trained or no.

At this point in her life, nothing is going to give mine the 'air time' requested on my last sheet. 

OP, I think you have 2 questions in your opening post, please correct me if I'm wrong. 
The first - something I've only experienced in the last few weeks - judges basically asking for more 'enhanced' paces for want of a better word, the second - how to get reliable extensions.

The second should be do-able, without question. The first... I think genetics and conformation will always play a part. 
 Like how some horses are natural extenders and some are natural collecters... ( I have one of each, lol)  Those who fall to the extremes of those ranges need a lot of help to develop the weaker elements, more so than a horse that is kind of average in both?  Likewise, IMO, the workmanlike correct horse would take a lot of work to develop suspension, personally I've run out of time because my girl is too old now.  But you can see it even at GP level, that some horses just naturally have that, and others don't...


----------



## tristar (31 July 2017)

i know where you are coming from Alex, its just i am looking at horses doing `super things` yet the brilliance is lacking and i`m trying to understand why.

i can only think its something to do with the training going faster than the horse, so the `super things` are done in a kind of performing seal mode.


----------



## HufflyPuffly (31 July 2017)

Agree MP, two different issues. The judges love Topaz's activity and suspension in her paces, this is all her, all natural and has taken no training from me to achieve, we're still rubbish at extensions .

Though I kind of think both issues should be able to be taught/improved from teaching them to sit and push from the hind end?

I think sometimes we can all be guilty of sometimes teaching the horses the moves needed for a test rather than the using the movements as part of the training to improve the horse. I can see that teaching a horse with very grounded paces cadence would be very tricky though, as I'm struggling to get Topaz to understand the simple concept of lengthening, never mind change her whole way of moving...

I wouldn't say I've rushed Topaz to move her up the levels but just accepted we will score poorly in the areas she's not quite test ready for yet, but to the outside it could well look like I'm missing steps of our training. The other side of this is the difference between at home Topaz and at shows Topaz, she has to go out and do as otherwise it will never improve in a test situation never mind how good she is at home.


----------



## alainax (31 July 2017)

There was a really interesting tutorial by carl or charlotte on how to get the big flashy paces, can't seem to find it right now though! It was about the training of the pace and when to push! I'm sure there was a lot of forward in it iirc!


----------



## milliepops (31 July 2017)

To an extent, I'm sure you're right Alex- let's face it, you can't go wrong by developing sitting/pushing in any horse, it will only do good   But I still think that conformation  will limit the ability of any horse... 

I think I've trained Millie 'correctly', she's unrecognisable from the gangly 5 yo I started with, yet she has and always will have long hindlegs and short front legs, is at least an inch shorter at the withers vs croup... sitting is something she finds extremely hard. She's learnt to engage, and wait, but to really sit is quite difficult. So she uses up all her energy doing what sitting she can do... there's not a great deal of scope left to then introduce suspension from that sitting,because pushing then tends to push her onto her front legs.   (plus with knackered tendons I'm not really up for that anyway  )

Dunno, I wish I had another 10 years with her  
Kira's the complete opposite. Kira could sit all day, she doesn't need her front legs  Levade is her party trick! She's much more ropey in her acceptance of the training yet I feel that the suspension will come easily to her, she's already got what we have jokingly termed a 'blingy trot' with uphill looseness at the shoulder and a funny toe flick (god only knows how I'll get that at a show, lol).    Can only be genetics. IMO.


----------



## HufflyPuffly (31 July 2017)

Absolutely agree, it's an uphill battle lol teaching against their genetics and confo! Hence why we 'should' all just buy WB's and make our lives easier .


----------



## milliepops (31 July 2017)

AlexHyde said:



			Hence why we 'should' all just buy WB's and make our lives easier .
		
Click to expand...


haha yup 

Joking aside, you can see it at the top levels too, look past CDJ who has access to the most promising horsepower in the country.. and see other pros at GP turning out horse after horse after horse over the years.. some have that wow factor, and some don't, despite showing all the harmony and correctness that only really good thorough training can produce.  So not only do we need WBs, we need super mega amazing WBs! lol!

OP, I hope someone will come along with the magic solution. For now I think the consensus we're approaching is to keep on, keeping on. And hope for the best


----------



## Goldenstar (31 July 2017)

AlexHyde said:



			Absolutely agree, it's an uphill battle lol teaching against their genetics and confo! Hence why we 'should' all just buy WB's and make our lives easier .
		
Click to expand...

The reason young warmblood achieve the stratospheric prices they do is because the best ones come with all the suspension and uphill movement built in .
Good training should always enhance the paces but that goes for the best moving one as well .


----------



## milliepops (31 July 2017)

I hope the OP will pop back and join the discussion because it's a really interesting one  

I personally have made my peace with having 6.5 to 7 horses, we can get a few higher marks for the things they find easier but let's face it, not everyone is going to be in the 80s. 
If we can go up a level without seeing a big drop in scores, then that tells me the basic way of going must be "good enough" for the demands of the test, and the judge will always comment on areas for improvement - that's not condemning the rest of it.

I don't think that makes it a crime to move on up the levels, for one thing, riding at the next level teaches me as a rider SO much more about how to ride the more basic stuff *better*. If we all waited until we were getting 8s across the board, intro classes would have to start at 6am and finish in the evening and there would be no one in the higher levels at all!


----------



## 007Equestrian (31 July 2017)

Popping back in don't worry


----------



## 007Equestrian (31 July 2017)

milliepops said:



			I hope the OP will pop back and join the discussion because it's a really interesting one  

I personally have made my peace with having 6.5 to 7 horses, we can get a few higher marks for the things they find easier but let's face it, not everyone is going to be in the 80s. 
If we can go up a level without seeing a big drop in scores, then that tells me the basic way of going must be "good enough" for the demands of the test, and the judge will always comment on areas for improvement - that's not condemning the rest of it.

I don't think that makes it a crime to move on up the levels, for one thing, riding at the next level teaches me as a rider SO much more about how to ride the more basic stuff *better*. If we all waited until we were getting 8s across the board, intro classes would have to start at 6am and finish in the evening and there would be no one in the higher levels at all! 

Click to expand...

I feel my boy and your girl could be soulmates haha. He's built very level or a smidge uphill but unfortunately has a slightly longer back which leads to any collected canter where his back lifts seeming croup high! He can bring his back up and legs under the girth but unfortunately its a hill rather than a slope - up in the middle and down on either end!


----------



## 007Equestrian (31 July 2017)

It wss very frustrating this past weekend, the only negative comments on our test were "needs to collect and lift shoulder" not one other mistake! But we were left on 66% when a very attractive flashy warmblood blew up twice in his test but came 2nd with 73%. I don't like to compare but if I'd work my butt off to get our average mark to be a 7.5/8 rather than a 6/6.5! Buying a flashy warmblood also isnt an option for me haha


----------



## milliepops (31 July 2017)

if that was the only negative comment then I think you need to think differently about this - that would suggest that the rest of the work is in place as you said, and this is something you can develop - just probably not to the scope of a horse that is "born with it".

One thing that my trainer said to me when I first started at AM was that I needed to ride each movement "with a capital letter". So rather than just ride a half pass, Ride A Half Pass. Set up, balance, refresh the forwardness, and go for it.  And repeat for each movement. I'm still working on keeping my brain that engaged  but when I remember to ride every last step like that, I see we get better scores/comments.

So... typical sequence of moves, say - shoulder in/10m circle/half pass etc - before each one, reframe the trot momentarily so you are showing your horse's best possible work . That helps mine to stay collected and off the front end.. won't solve the problem of suspension but at least makes it look lighter!  Could that apply? You are probably better at remembering that than I am, if I start to forget where I'm going I tend to forget to ride as well!


----------



## tallyho! (31 July 2017)

Oh no my pet hate subject that I can't help myself from commenting on! I should just back away...

Yes so if you want a horse that can wave it's front legs about, go get a wb... correct training is correct training for any horse but apparently judges can't give marks for that anymore.

Hate being outdone by the wbs waving their front legs about whilst performing a fairly mediocre test overall? Are you doing a perfect test, then getting less mark than the wb that can't even ride a straight line without having a fit?

Then, it's time to leave the circus. 

Do I sound bitter?


----------



## 007Equestrian (31 July 2017)

milliepops said:



			if that was the only negative comment then I think you need to think differently about this - that would suggest that the rest of the work is in place as you said, and this is something you can develop - just probably not to the scope of a horse that is "born with it".

One thing that my trainer said to me when I first started at AM was that I needed to ride each movement "with a capital letter". So rather than just ride a half pass, Ride A Half Pass. Set up, balance, refresh the forwardness, and go for it.  And repeat for each movement. I'm still working on keeping my brain that engaged  but when I remember to ride every last step like that, I see we get better scores/comments.

So... typical sequence of moves, say - shoulder in/10m circle/half pass etc - before each one, reframe the trot momentarily so you are showing your horse's best possible work . That helps mine to stay collected and off the front end.. won't solve the problem of suspension but at least makes it look lighter!  Could that apply? You are probably better at remembering that than I am, if I start to forget where I'm going I tend to forget to ride as well!
		
Click to expand...

Yes this is actually what we've been working on, our horses must be twins haha! I've had to get very good at riding accurately which thankfully seems to be paying off as we didn't get any comments from any of the judges referencing angle of lateral/size of circles/not at marker etc. Although it for sure melts your brain &#128514; too much concentration! Medium 76 in particular was a nightmare to learn...

I'm planning to incorporate some hillwork in trot and canter before the nationals and get her so insanely fit that hopefully the buzziness carries us through haha. Possibly some low bounce fences and raised trotting poles also and trying to get collected, working and medium within a shoulder in. Outside of that my creativity with exercises is the limiting factor haha!


----------



## 007Equestrian (31 July 2017)

tallyho! said:



			Oh no my pet hate subject that I can't help myself from commenting on! I should just back away...

Yes so if you want a horse that can wave it's front legs about, go get a wb... correct training is correct training for any horse but apparently judges can't give marks for that anymore.

Hate being outdone by the wbs waving their front legs about whilst performing a fairly mediocre test overall? Are you doing a perfect test, then getting less mark than the wb that can't even ride a straight line without having a fit?

Then, it's time to leave the circus. 

Do I sound bitter? 

Click to expand...

I agree with this to an extent. I believe that a correct horse can still beat a flashy warmblood... if said warmblood makes substantial mistakes haha. I saw a friends test sheet (albeit at novice) for her gorgeous 17hh young chestnut warmblood stallion. She started on 8s and 9s for his first few movements and only dropped to 6s when he got randy and decided to attempt to join the pony next door haha. Wheras my very well behaved gelding who rode a very accurate test started on 7, quickly dropping to 6s and 6.5s with the odd 7. It seems to be your first three moves dictate whether you'll be a 6, 6.5 or 7 average throughout your test.


----------



## tallyho! (31 July 2017)

TRCequestrian said:



			I agree with this to an extent. I believe that a correct horse can still beat a flashy warmblood... if said warmblood makes substantial mistakes haha. I saw a friends test sheet (albeit at novice) for her gorgeous 17hh young chestnut warmblood stallion. She started on 8s and 9s for his first few movements and only dropped to 6s when he got randy and decided to attempt to join the pony next door haha. Wheras my very well behaved gelding who rode a very accurate test started on 7, quickly dropping to 6s and 6.5s with the odd 7. It seems to be your first three moves dictate whether you'll be a 6, 6.5 or 7 average throughout your test.
		
Click to expand...

See it all the time. Still... hasn't put me off dressage, just training my next non-warmblood horse.

Don't get me wrong, I don't dislike warmbloods at all - lovely horses actually but it's the way it's become de rigueur if you want to do well.


----------



## 007Equestrian (31 July 2017)

tallyho! said:



			See it all the time. Still... hasn't put me off dressage, just training my next non-warmblood horse.

Don't get me wrong, I don't dislike warmbloods at all - lovely horses actually but it's the way it's become de rigueur if you want to do well.
		
Click to expand...

We clearly just need more bling  diamantes to BLIND the judges into giving us 9s hehe. I think warmbloods are stunning as well, but feel I could only own one if I had it from a yearling. I have a very no-nonsense approach to spookiness which suits my irish boy haha, but seeing many warmbloods (and the odd native to be fair) turning themselves inside out at a flower pot at the weekend made me very grateful for what I have. We 'bombproofed' him young with never going into the school if there wasn't a flag/tarp/sprinkler/tinsel/tractor etc in it to get him used to it, however his natural calm temperament was a big help.


----------



## daffy44 (31 July 2017)

Interesting thread. Firstly the idea that all warmbloods come with super cadence, flash etc is just nonsense, there are plenty of average moving warmbloods, there are also downhill ones, bad attitude ones etc.  A very good, naturally talented warmblood does have all the genetic gifts of cadence, expression, balance etc, but even in warmbloods its not that common.

Yes, good training can improve every horses paces, way of going, but you also have to accept the physical/mental limitations of the horse, with the more modest movers you have to do your best to gain all the extra marks you can through accuracy, rhythm etc.  If, as the OP suggested, the horse is finds collection more natural then I would move up a level and maximise on what your horse can do best.  Of course train at home to develop what he struggles with, but dont waste his natural gifts.

Even the very best training cant give every horse everything, Nip Tuck does not have an extended trot, no one can say his training has been lacking!  But he is trained and ridden to make the most of everything else he can do, but even Carl cant turn him into Valegro, its the natural limitations of the horse.  Enjoy what your horse can do, dont just see the negative.


----------



## 007Equestrian (31 July 2017)

daffy44 said:



			Interesting thread. Firstly the idea that all warmbloods come with super cadence, flash etc is just nonsense, there are plenty of average moving warmbloods, there are also downhill ones, bad attitude ones etc.  A very good, naturally talented warmblood does have all the genetic gifts of cadence, expression, balance etc, but even in warmbloods its not that common.

Yes, good training can improve every horses paces, way of going, but you also have to accept the physical/mental limitations of the horse, with the more modest movers you have to do your best to gain all the extra marks you can through accuracy, rhythm etc.  If, as the OP suggested, the horse is finds collection more natural then I would move up a level and maximise on what your horse can do best.  Of course train at home to develop what he struggles with, but dont waste his natural gifts.
		
Click to expand...

Very true. I saw a stallion at a recent show with VERY 'popular' and 'commercial' bloodlines. I'll let you think of them but essentially he was HouseholdNameDressageStallion x MareByAnotherHouseholdName. And he was downhill, on the forehand, had very choppy paces and honestly I was surprised to see he was entire never mind his breeding. It just goes to show breeding excellence to excellence doesn't always achieve excellence!



daffy44 said:



			Even the very best training cant give every horse everything, Nip Tuck does not have an extended trot, no one can say his training has been lacking!  But he is trained and ridden to make the most of everything else he can do, but even Carl cant turn him into Valegro, its the natural limitations of the horse.  Enjoy what your horse can do, dont just see the negative.
		
Click to expand...

Now if only judges reacted to me the same way they do when Carl, Charlotte or any of the other dressage celebrities enter the ring! First step is probably gaining a tenth of their ability


----------



## tallyho! (31 July 2017)

daffy44 said:



			Interesting thread. Firstly the idea that all warmbloods come with super cadence, flash etc is just nonsense, there are plenty of average moving warmbloods, there are also downhill ones, bad attitude ones etc.  A very good, naturally talented warmblood does have all the genetic gifts of cadence, expression, balance etc, but even in warmbloods its not that common.
		
Click to expand...

In defence of my post, which I'm sure you're not referring to at all , I did use the term rather glibly to encompass ALL warmbloods but I hope you noticed that I used my refined sense of humour to have a jibe at judges and not the horses themselves!


----------



## daffy44 (31 July 2017)

I truely wasnt referring to your post at all.  I just find it is a very commonly used generalisation that all warmbloods are born mega moving superstars!  Some are, some certainly are not, sadly its just not that simple, and also very often the super flashy warmblood you see winning Novices by a million miles doesnt actually train on to the higher levels, whereas the very correct, non flashy horse that is beaten at the lower levels, trains on very well.


----------



## milliepops (31 July 2017)

daffy44 said:



			Even the very best training cant give every horse everything, Nip Tuck does not have an extended trot, no one can say his training has been lacking!  But he is trained and ridden to make the most of everything else he can do, but even Carl cant turn him into Valegro, its the natural limitations of the horse.  Enjoy what your horse can do, dont just see the negative.
		
Click to expand...

Love this, very true. I think it's one of the things I have enjoyed most about watching Nip Tuck's journey, he's clearly not megastar material, still isn't, really, yet can still deliver a spellbinding performance where you are just willing him to succeed, and he does hoover up those marks through DETAIL.  While few of us can relate to Carl's ability, all of us can relate to wanting to get the best from our horses.



daffy44 said:



			also very often the super flashy warmblood you see winning Novices by a million miles doesnt actually train on to the higher levels, whereas the very correct, non flashy horse that is beaten at the lower levels, trains on very well.
		
Click to expand...

Holding on to these words...   
I think it's easy to just notice the ones at the top of the sport and think 'oh you've got to have a WB to do well'.  Well .. it probably helps to have the right body and brain for the job, and those 2 things often seem to coincide in a WB.  But let's be honest, how many of us on HHO are really going to be riding at those top flight levels?  It's probably not because of a lack of horsepower either - more likely a lack of time, job pressures, competing demands of family life etc. It's tight at the top. But the really amazing thing about equestrian sport is the average hobby rider can still participate with an average horse. It feels quite intimidating to be riding my little one into AM classes now but on the other hand, no one has any expectations of us.. so when we do the right thing, we get the right score and there's no pressure.   
I feel like I've come full circle, lol!


----------



## be positive (31 July 2017)

The difference between the top pro on the less talented horse and the rest of us is that the pro can ride for/ get a 9 or 10 for some movements which make up for the lower marks to an extent, they will really go for certain parts of a test where the horse can gain higher marks, whether that is showing the ability to extend/ collect/ do lateral work or just be extremely accurate through the whole test.

I think with an average horse getting average marks throughout the test the rider probably has to push the boundaries where they think they can gain extra marks, if they go too far and fluff it there is always another day/ test to try again, being conservative and doing an accurate test with no mistakes will rarely gain the marks required to win at any level which is why even the fancy movers explode at times because even they are being pushed towards their limits of training, apart from the odd really explosive ones that are ridden with the hand brake on. 

Confidence also plays a huge part, the horse has to feel really confident in order to move at it's best, the rider has to be confident to ride for every mark with a bit of a don't care if it goes wrong attitude, most of us almost try too hard to get it right so perform below our best in the ring and that applies to most spheres.


----------



## sav123 (31 July 2017)

I have nothing helpful to contribute to this, but just wanted to say that it is a very interesting and useful discussion!


----------



## Bernster (1 August 2017)

sav123 said:



			I have nothing helpful to contribute to this, but just wanted to say that it is a very interesting and useful discussion!
		
Click to expand...

 Me too!


----------



## Micropony (1 August 2017)

Nothing clever to add, just an observation... How many of us could sit properly on those huge flashy paces anyway? I will never reach the dizzy heights for many reasons, and my preference would always be for correct but moderate paces and a great temperament. That way I have some chance of actually being able to ride and influence the horse correctly, and it will probably last longer. For example I was blown away by watching Der Designer in a couple of demos with Michael Eilberg. The way that horse moved was just thrilling. But you'd have to be a Michael Eilberg to be able to ride it, and there aren't many of those around!


----------



## HufflyPuffly (1 August 2017)

On sitting to paces, you'd be surprised at how easy it can be to sit to something that looks to have massive movement if the horse is soft and accepting over the back. Topaz moves very differently to the lovely warmbloods out there, but once she is soft over her back it isn't that hard with a bit of work on my core strength. However that's imagining that the lovely horse is just trotting round being all obedient and not trying to wazz about because a piece of grass looked at them wrong .

My comments about WB's were that if we were sensible, you would go and buy something that is built and has all the natural attributes you want for the job, to make training them the easiest it can be. There might be many poor moving WB's out there but I would assume if you were looking for a dressage horse you'd pass these by.

I have never found any judge to judge unfairly between different breeds at affiliated competition. On balance WB's might score higher because they are the better horse, and I think the point above about us amateurs not riding for every mark is very true!


----------



## milliepops (1 August 2017)

AlexHyde said:



			I think the point above about us amateurs not riding for every mark is very true!
		
Click to expand...

yes definitely!   I've been doing quite a lot of test riding practice with some intro/prelim riders lately just to help them find their feet, ditch some nerves and improve scores a bit.  Helping them to deconstruct the tests to get every mark possible has really helped me to think about my own tests too


----------



## tallyho! (1 August 2017)

Micropony said:



			Nothing clever to add, just an observation... How many of us could sit properly on those huge flashy paces anyway?
		
Click to expand...

From experience, quite easy  because the ones I experienced were forward and the engine was revving nicely... I find it easier to sit/ride a horse that is using it's power well than one which is all all leg and nothing in the middle - horses that don't give you anything to sit on but look easy are much worse to ride. Training my youngster, the engine often cuts out and it hurts my back trying to ride a low-geared, handbraked horse. If I can't restart it, I throw in the towel and try another day when the engine is firing on all cylinders


----------



## Caol Ila (1 August 2017)

When I was showing in the States in the late 90s/early 2000s, a lot of the judging at the low levels seemed to operate on a system whereby every horse was scored for its gaits and that was the base score for every movement in the test.  A horse could win more points or lose them depending on how well or how badly it did the movement, but the horse endowed with better gaits (meaning floaty and toe-flicky) started with an advantage.  If you had an 8 mover, you could get an 8 if the movement was okay, a 9 or 10 if you rode it really well, or a 6 or 7 if you ballsed it up.  But if you had a 6 mover, you could push it to an 8 if you rode the movement exceptionally well, a 6 if it was just competently executed, or a 5 or 4 if you screwed it up. 

That said, a horse who could move up the levels, no matter what the breed, could get some decent scores because the upper levels have more movements, and a good rider could squeeze points out of all of those on his/her non-flashy horse.  But at the low levels where there isn't a lot going on, the gait scores were massively advantageous to the horses with flicky, floaty gaits.


----------



## nikkimariet (1 August 2017)

Micropony said:



			How many of us could sit properly on those huge flashy paces anyway?!
		
Click to expand...

Quite easily actually. If you've got a good seat, and the horse is working over the back... It's a doddle.

Riding a horse like that effectively is another question entirely.


----------



## wingedhorse (1 August 2017)

AlexHyde said:



			On sitting to paces, you'd be surprised at how easy it can be to sit to something that looks to have massive movement if the horse is soft and accepting over the back. Topaz moves very differently to the lovely warmbloods out there, but once she is soft over her back it isn't that hard with a bit of work on my core strength. However that's imagining that the lovely horse is just trotting round being all obedient and not trying to wazz about because a piece of grass looked at them wrong .

My comments about WB's were that if we were sensible, you would go and buy something that is built and has all the natural attributes you want for the job, to make training them the easiest it can be. There might be many poor moving WB's out there but I would assume if you were looking for a dressage horse you'd pass these by.

!
		
Click to expand...

I think though if you are an average amateur dressage rider. Maybe aspiring to get to advanced medium or there abouts.

If starting again, you might want to look for a horse that is totally sound, with good conformation, an uphill tendency, built to be able to both take weight back and to extend without difficulty, good paces, good natural rhythm and a kind but forward thinking temperament. 

That would make the job easier, assuming the extra challenge isnt part of the fun?

That criteria may be met by a range of horse types and breeds not just dressage warmbloods. And not all dressage bred warmbloods would meet that criteria.


----------



## tallyho! (1 August 2017)

nikkimariet said:



			Quite easily actually. If you've got a good seat, and the horse is working over the back... It's a doddle.

Riding a horse like that effectively is another question entirely.
		
Click to expand...

I agree with first point as above but could you elaborate a bit on the efficacy bit?


----------



## daffy44 (1 August 2017)

wingedhorse said:



			I think though if you are an average amateur dressage rider. Maybe aspiring to get to advanced medium or there abouts.

If starting again, you might want to look for a horse that is totally sound, with good conformation, an uphill tendency, built to be able to both take weight back and to extend without difficulty, good paces, good natural rhythm and a kind but forward thinking temperament. 

That would make the job easier, assuming the extra challenge isn&#8217;t part of the fun?

That criteria may be met by a range of horse types and breeds not just dressage warmbloods. And not all dressage bred warmbloods would meet that criteria.
		
Click to expand...


This!!!  Absolutely


----------



## rachk89 (1 August 2017)

Get a half warmblood then you can afford one. 

Genetics do help really. I wouldn't say my horse has overly flashy paces, he doesn't kick out his front legs impressively at least, but he works from behind naturally, that is where the 'engine' is as I say to my non horsey friends. He's never on the forehand, he doesn't pull, he goes round easily, you don't actually have to ask him to work properly once he's warmed up he just does it. You ask, he gives basically. I was trying to get extension before the kissing spine issues, but not getting far, however that may have been because of the kissing spine. Keeping the focus with him is the problem usually as he is like a naughty boy in the classroom, always looking for mischief. When he's really bad, straight lines just can't happen, we just get dizzy doing lots of turns, circles, serpentines, transitions etc just to keep him thinking and listening. Tend to throw in random complicated stuff to really confuse him, that's when the spooking stops generally as he's confused about where I'm asking him to put his feet. 

Saying that, he's not easy to ride, to sit to I mean. He gets worse the more he gives, the better he goes the more I get pinged out of the saddle. My bad core strength though doesn't help that, but other riders with far better core strength struggle too with him. He's just so strong and once he's back in work his back end just goes solid with muscle. 

I do have it easier to create a dressage horse with him, when I have his attention from the mares. But it's still got its challenges.


----------



## 007Equestrian (1 August 2017)

Caol Ila said:



			When I was showing in the States in the late 90s/early 2000s, a lot of the judging at the low levels seemed to operate on a system whereby every horse was scored for its gaits and that was the base score for every movement in the test.  A horse could win more points or lose them depending on how well or how badly it did the movement, but the horse endowed with better gaits (meaning floaty and toe-flicky) started with an advantage.  If you had an 8 mover, you could get an 8 if the movement was okay, a 9 or 10 if you rode it really well, or a 6 or 7 if you ballsed it up.  But if you had a 6 mover, you could push it to an 8 if you rode the movement exceptionally well, a 6 if it was just competently executed, or a 5 or 4 if you screwed it up. 

That said, a horse who could move up the levels, no matter what the breed, could get some decent scores because the upper levels have more movements, and a good rider could squeeze points out of all of those on his/her non-flashy horse.  But at the low levels where there isn't a lot going on, the gait scores were massively advantageous to the horses with flicky, floaty gaits.
		
Click to expand...

This is what I've found at my level as well, you just worded it better than me!


----------



## DabDab (1 August 2017)

be positive said:



			The difference between the top pro on the less talented horse and the rest of us is that the pro can ride for/ get a 9 or 10 for some movements which make up for the lower marks to an extent, they will really go for certain parts of a test where the horse can gain higher marks, whether that is showing the ability to extend/ collect/ do lateral work or just be extremely accurate through the whole test.

I think with an average horse getting average marks throughout the test the rider probably has to push the boundaries where they think they can gain extra marks, if they go too far and fluff it there is always another day/ test to try again, being conservative and doing an accurate test with no mistakes will rarely gain the marks required to win at any level which is why even the fancy movers explode at times because even they are being pushed towards their limits of training, apart from the odd really explosive ones that are ridden with the hand brake on. 

Confidence also plays a huge part, the horse has to feel really confident in order to move at it's best, the rider has to be confident to ride for every mark with a bit of a don't care if it goes wrong attitude, most of us almost try too hard to get it right so perform below our best in the ring and that applies to most spheres.
		
Click to expand...

I think that this is very true. A lot of the time we as one horse hobby riders do not wish to push our horses when we are only too aware that they are reaching their physical limitation. Maybe we could squeeze more out of them, but do we want to when it could be to the detriment of our beloved pet.

Very interesting discussion OP.

I think having the horse with the right natural inclination counts for as much as paces when moving up to the higher levels to be honest. Some horses are far easier to train cadence and extension into because they are more naturally responsive mentally to that kind of training.

If I take a massive sideways step into a dog training comparison (bear with me ), I have two terriers with very similar physical attributes and with a similar level of intelligence. One can do all manner of tricks with gusto and flair - high five, fetching items, closing doors and will happily hold a conversation with you....the other also does some of these things, but in a very mechanical, 'taught' kind of fashion. The only difference between the two is their temperaments and natural inclinations.

Back to horses, and I have two now who are almost polar opposites temperament wise. One can just about do a medium trot under saddle with a lot of assistance and setting up and it has taken a long time for the penny to drop. The other is 3, unbacked, pretty much untrained and I taught her to transition between working and medium trot while loose schooling (something that the older one is still incapable of) in about 10 minutes of one session. Yes they're different physically, but the main difference is their natural inclinations. If I say jump to the little on she says 'how high?' If I say jump to the older one he says 'ok, that sounds like an interesting suggestion, I'll give it some thought and get back to you'. In comparison the ability to learn cadence lies with the big one - his desire to contemplate how to put each foot down before doing it means that the moment you ask for collection you have beautiful expression and he starts to actually use his body properly, despite the fact that he still doesn't have a decent working trot without you really getting after him. 

Of course the top flight is reserved for the top horses physically, but I firmly believe that in the vast majority of horses it is the brain rather than the body that limits. And that is of course why good training is so very effective.


----------



## 007Equestrian (1 August 2017)

DabDab said:



			I think that this is very true. A lot of the time we as one horse hobby riders do not wish to push our horses when we are only too aware that they are reaching their physical limitation. Maybe we could squeeze more out of them, but do we want to when it could be to the detriment of our beloved pet.

Very interesting discussion OP.

I think having the horse with the right natural inclination counts for as much as paces when moving up to the higher levels to be honest. Some horses are far easier to train cadence and extension into because they are more naturally responsive mentally to that kind of training.

If I take a massive sideways step into a dog training comparison (bear with me ), I have two terriers with very similar physical attributes and with a similar level of intelligence. One can do all manner of tricks with gusto and flair - high five, fetching items, closing doors and will happily hold a conversation with you....the other also does some of these things, but in a very mechanical, 'taught' kind of fashion. The only difference between the two is their temperaments and natural inclinations.

Back to horses, and I have two now who are almost polar opposites temperament wise. One can just about do a medium trot under saddle with a lot of assistance and setting up and it has taken a long time for the penny to drop. The other is 3, unbacked, pretty much untrained and I taught her to transition between working and medium trot while loose schooling (something that the older one is still incapable of) in about 10 minutes of one session. Yes they're different physically, but the main difference is their natural inclinations. If I say jump to the little on she says 'how high?' If I say jump to the older one he says 'ok, that sounds like an interesting suggestion, I'll give it some thought and get back to you'. In comparison the ability to learn cadence lies with the big one - his desire to contemplate how to put each foot down before doing it means that the moment you ask for collection you have beautiful expression and he starts to actually use his body properly, despite the fact that he still doesn't have a decent working trot without you really getting after him. 

Of course the top flight is reserved for the top horses physically, but I firmly believe that in the vast majority of horses it is the brain rather than the body that limits. And that is of course why good training is so very effective.
		
Click to expand...

This was so interesting to read! Thank you for taking the time to write it all out. Do you have any exercises which helped get your big lad to be motivated to show more cadence? My boy is so so willing but can be a little slow for the penny to drop. He used to not be able to half pass because he didnt step properly forwards and under and thus kicked himself every stride! Once the penny dropped he was doing steep half pass with ease within a month or two. Ditto the changes, they took a year but he was doing 4s and 3s within a month of them 'clicking'. I'm just hoping the more advanced collection is the same!!


----------



## DabDab (1 August 2017)

Um, mostly done in hand and then translated to saddle, but to be honest his brain so naturally lends itself to that way of going it is only really limited by his physical fitness right now. His brain naturally tends towards wait and contemplate, whereas it sounds like you have to train that mindset in your horse - that I guess is your training puzzle. With my horse the training puzzle is to get him to think workmanlike, like I assume yours does naturally.


----------



## 007Equestrian (2 August 2017)

DabDab said:



			Um, mostly done in hand and then translated to saddle, but to be honest his brain so naturally lends itself to that way of going it is only really limited by his physical fitness right now. His brain naturally tends towards wait and contemplate, whereas it sounds like you have to train that mindset in your horse - that I guess is your training puzzle. With my horse the training puzzle is to get him to think workmanlike, like I assume yours does naturally.
		
Click to expand...

You hit the nail on the head haha. We have a lovely fourth gear we can cruise along in all day with a nice rhythm and activity but trying to get that 'wait' and cadence in the step just leads to us slowing down and losing power. Maybe I should tie helium balloons to his feet... or maybe a jet pack...


----------



## be positive (2 August 2017)

DabDab said:



			I think that this is very true. A lot of the time we as one horse hobby riders do not wish to push our horses when we are only too aware that they are reaching their physical limitation. Maybe we could squeeze more out of them, but do we want to when it could be to the detriment of our beloved pet.

Very interesting discussion OP.

When I suggested pushing for the extra marks I meant riding each movement to it's best not pushing the horse to it's limits or beyond, most of us ride a bit cautiously in a test aware of not wanting to risk making an error, missing a marker or breaking the pace, the pros will take those risks partly because their reactions are more finely tuned, partly because it is just another test on another horse, partly because if they don't push for 100% they will never know if the horse will cope with the pressure at the highest level.

For the majority of us each test is important and we ride a bit conservatively, some of the best tests I have ridden and scored in have been on lazier horses that need pushing to get the best out of them, riding every movement with real purpose gets rewarded by higher marks and those lazy horses have beaten the flashy ones because each movement has been correctly started and finished, how often do we see a med trot start well and then the rider barely does a downward transition because the trot has fizzled out, the same with lateral work it is often set up well ridden well enough then the horse just drifts out at the end rather than being ridden out and set up for the next movement, each part of a test needs equal riding there should be nowhere that the rider can sit doing nothing, if there is a quiet period they should be trying to improve the pace not accepting what they are being given. 

All well and good in theory, far more difficult in reality but for the OP a lesson with a top level dressage judge may be useful, I know many trainers judge but the insight from a top judge can be really useful, I had some lessons with a now FEI judge years ago and she taught me a lot about test riding that actually made a huge difference to my way of thinking and riding a test, she always expected every movement to be ridden 100% accurately until it became second nature, I still "hear" her at times when I am riding and it makes me sit up and ride better!!
		
Click to expand...


----------



## ycbm (2 August 2017)

007Equestrian said:



			You hit the nail on the head haha. We have a lovely fourth gear we can cruise along in all day with a nice rhythm and activity but trying to get that 'wait' and cadence in the step just leads to us slowing down and losing power. Maybe I should tie helium balloons to his feet... or maybe a jet pack...
		
Click to expand...

I have been reading this thread with interest because I've had three elevated warmbloods but usually have more ordinary horses. The warmbloods, if they are physically and mentally sound, are ime far easier to train and get good scores on for competitive dressage.

I don't compete at the moment, and never have competed dressage with a real will to win rather than have a nice day out. But for what it's worth, with the ordinary horses, I think the modern training for speed in the paces at the lower levels to generate 'activity' is the enemy of suspension at the higher levels.

Getting up off the floor requires a form of weight training in horses which weren't born to it. Unless you slow things down, that doesn't happen. It might be possible if  you are prepared to take a big hold on the reins and drive the horse into it so that he has nowhere else to go but into higher suspension, but that can hardly be described as 'self carriage'.

For me, this is all about half halts and transitions between and within the paces. A million of them. A billion of them. And slowing the trot and canter as slow as the horse can do and holding that for increasing lengths of time to develop strength.  Then speeding it back up by asking for lift. Building strength over years, irrespective of what that might score in a prelim or novice test. 

The basic physical ability of the horse does matter though. If the freedom in the joints isn't there to start with, it's going to be very difficult, or impossible, to train that in. 


Just my musings from a non competitive rider with an 'ordinary' 7 year old Clyde cross working medium at home.  Feel free to ignore.


----------



## tristar (2 August 2017)

speed is not rhythm, speed is not balance, speed has no place in the early training of the horse, speed can be running.

going forward within the rhythm with balance at the level of the horses training is where i find activity, it does not come from speed,

if a horse cannot lengthen, to me it is not ready to advance, it is a most novice movement that is offered, not forced by the young horse, maybe some horses can`t, but i don`t know any.

personally i  am not in a rush, if it takes years it takes years, and more years, because i don`t intend to subject my horses to other people`s  ridged standard, when i know from experience how greatly a horse can change as it develops.

you`ve only got to look at caramello the mule and that hairy cob that`s about to come out at gp to change your perspective , if only in regard to the possiblities, the cob is sixteen and they train him 3 times a week, hardly a horse that`s been hammered, and for me that may be one of the secrets, and for them the reward of arriving where most are trying to get to.


----------



## HufflyPuffly (2 August 2017)

tristar said:



			if a horse cannot lengthen, to me it is not ready to advance, it is a most novice movement that is offered, not forced by the young horse, maybe some horses can`t, but i don`t know any.
		
Click to expand...

My knee's up carriage horse finds lengthening a completely foreign language, should I have kept her at novice until she understood?

For reference she's out scoring high 60's at medium, she still generally only can get around a 6 for med/extended trot movements, can sometimes easily be less and generally probably should be less but the judges can see her trying I guess.

Until you have the exception horse, or have that one who doesn't conform to the normal ideals of the scales of training it can seem bonkers to move up without some of what others would class as the absolute basics.


Back to the original point of the thread, I've started asking for more cadence in Topaz's collected trot for the start of passage and the start of half steps in Topaz's last two schooling sessions, the difference this has made to her normal working trot has been fabulous . She does find this stuff fairly easy, but I really do think this would be the way I would try to introduce 'flashiness' to a more earth bound horse.


----------



## milliepops (2 August 2017)

AlexHyde said:



			Back to the original point of the thread, I've started asking for more cadence in Topaz's collected trot for the start of passage and the start of half steps in Topaz's last two schooling sessions, the difference this has made to her normal working trot has been fabulous . She does find this stuff fairly easy, but I really do think this would be the way I would try to introduce 'flashiness' to a more earth bound horse.
		
Click to expand...

I think this works for lots of people... I think it will be effective with Topaz because you have that built-in hotness which will make her want to use her energy  

Before Millie was injured last year we were developing the same, but her natural inclination is slow hindlegs & extensions - she found it really hard to be hot enough and quick enough to do this without just getting tight.  Kira will find it easier... when she remembers to stay forward. OK, next horse will be a hot one, sod the WB bit, it just needs to be hot!  lol!

I had a good outing yesterday and after having 2 sheets on the run demanding 'air time' in her paces, the next one had nice comments about her training and she got good marks for her paces. So :tongue3: *blows raspberries* personally I'm going to just carry on doing the stuff she's good at and not fretting about the rest


----------



## j1ffy (2 August 2017)

If I had to wait for genuine medium trot I'd be stuck at Prelim forever with Pocholo! As a short-legged, short-coupled, knee-high, efficient-moving PRE it's completely unnatural for him. We're getting the odd steps of genuine medium at home but, as my instructor said, we probably won't get a true marker-to-marker medium until we're working on PSG-level extended trot (and PSG is a pipe dream!).

This is a very interesting thread with lots of food for thought. I do believe correct dressage training can hugely improve paces - I've seen it in both my PREs and we're only at the lower levels - but ultimately we have to play the hand we're dealt. Pocholo can do the technical moves well so far but with his movement and shape he's never going to appear as supple, elastic and cadenced as a talented warmblood (or a talented PRE for that matter), but he more than makes up for it with his 'can do' attitude and with how easy he is to do in all respects. Indio has wonkiness issues that will slowly improve but we're always going to struggle with suppleness as a result, even though he does have much bigger paces than Pocholo and finds the lateral work easy.

Would I swap them for a big moving warmblood? Unlikely as I value how much fun and how easy they are to have around, and as an amateur with a full time office job that's as important to me as dressage scores.


----------



## milliepops (2 August 2017)

j1ffy said:



			If I had to wait for genuine medium trot I'd be stuck at Prelim forever with Pocholo!
		
Click to expand...

lol!  Exactly. And look at the team we have at the european champs.... Nip Tuck being one of the 4 horses selected to represent us, and as Daffy mentioned earlier, he STILL doesn't have that wow extension!  Imagine if Carl had said, "oh dear, medium trot is not up to par, better stick at prelim for now"   

In the test i did yesterday, the medium trot comprised one movement out of 25... one could handle an adequate mark for that you can do the  rest really well.   Even at GP (just checked, lol) it's only 3 out of 33  and 2 of those have a load of collected trot included within the 10 marks available anyway :wink3:


----------



## HufflyPuffly (2 August 2017)

milliepops said:



			I think this works for lots of people... I think it will be effective with Topaz because you have that built-in hotness which will make her want to use her energy  

Before Millie was injured last year we were developing the same, but her natural inclination is slow hindlegs & extensions - she found it really hard to be hot enough and quick enough to do this without just getting tight.  Kira will find it easier... when she remembers to stay forward. OK, next horse will be a hot one, sod the WB bit, it just needs to be hot!  lol!

I had a good outing yesterday and after having 2 sheets on the run demanding 'air time' in her paces, the next one had nice comments about her training and she got good marks for her paces. So :tongue3: *blows raspberries* personally I'm going to just carry on doing the stuff she's good at and not fretting about the rest 

Click to expand...

Oh yes I have a distinct advantage with both of mine as they act like the floor will burn them at the best of times, harnessing it for my own gain just requires some direction .

Yay for Millie, and that's a good mantra to have I think .

Also just putting this here, mine are 'technically' warmbloods as they are a cross between cold (Friesian) and hot (Hackney), so you know I'm like a stealth warmblood owner :lol:!


----------



## daffy44 (2 August 2017)

Milliepops, you are so, so right, do the stuff your horse is good at, and dont fret about the rest, is the perfect attitude.  We should always try to be improving our horses (and ourselves) but never to the point when we are getting too stressed about what our horse lacks.

As for not moving up a level until a horse can lengthen, well I'm afraid I disagree totally, obviously Nip Tuck is a great example of this as i said earlier, personally, I have also competed up to PSG on a horse that had no real extended trot, its a small part of the test.


----------



## tallyho! (2 August 2017)

DabDab said:



			I think that this is very true. A lot of the time we as one horse hobby riders do not wish to push our horses when we are only too aware that they are reaching their physical limitation. Maybe we could squeeze more out of them, but do we want to when it could be to the detriment of our beloved pet.

Very interesting discussion OP.

I think having the horse with the right natural inclination counts for as much as paces when moving up to the higher levels to be honest. Some horses are far easier to train cadence and extension into because they are more naturally responsive mentally to that kind of training.

If I take a massive sideways step into a dog training comparison (bear with me ), I have two terriers with very similar physical attributes and with a similar level of intelligence. One can do all manner of tricks with gusto and flair - high five, fetching items, closing doors and will happily hold a conversation with you....the other also does some of these things, but in a very mechanical, 'taught' kind of fashion. The only difference between the two is their temperaments and natural inclinations.

Back to horses, and I have two now who are almost polar opposites temperament wise. One can just about do a medium trot under saddle with a lot of assistance and setting up and it has taken a long time for the penny to drop. The other is 3, unbacked, pretty much untrained and I taught her to transition between working and medium trot while loose schooling (something that the older one is still incapable of) in about 10 minutes of one session. Yes they're different physically, but the main difference is their natural inclinations. If I say jump to the little on she says 'how high?' If I say jump to the older one he says 'ok, that sounds like an interesting suggestion, I'll give it some thought and get back to you'. In comparison the ability to learn cadence lies with the big one - his desire to contemplate how to put each foot down before doing it means that the moment you ask for collection you have beautiful expression and he starts to actually use his body properly, despite the fact that he still doesn't have a decent working trot without you really getting after him. 

Of course the top flight is reserved for the top horses physically, but I firmly believe that in the vast majority of horses it is the brain rather than the body that limits. And that is of course why good training is so very effective.
		
Click to expand...

So agree about the natural aptitudes! Had a few horses here of similar breeding - the three of them could not have been more different.

Have you also noticed about horses that they can be different with different riders too? I've noticed that a lot and one of the reasons we sometimes swap horses. One mare is a "different horse" when another certain person rides her. There must be a difference in how riders ride too that can be thrown into the "variable" pot.

If we flip it the other way, certain horses can put riders where they want and if you don't notice or are not strong enough to correct it, this can be a bad combination.

I've never been able to put my finger on it before, even though my bookshelf is heavy with classical riding books, but having recently received a very interesting book on biomechanics - I'm so glad to be able to give it some proper thought!


----------



## nikkimariet (2 August 2017)

tallyho! said:



			I agree with first point as above but could you elaborate a bit on the efficacy bit?
		
Click to expand...

Can the rider keep the horse soft and fluid from a medium trot to collected/etc? Can they ride from HP to an 8m circle without breaking the rhythm? Can they train the horse to changes legs seamlessly, remaining in the same tempo?

Medium trot is just one movement... A lot of people seem to get hung up on it? If you can do it for an 8, fabulous, well done. And if everything else is above a 7, then wahoo! But if your horse is yakking around with its hindlegs in another hemisphere and everything is a little crooked for a 5/6... 

There's a slight trend on this thread to insist on certain stages of training being in place before progressing (to another level etc). But that really isn't the case when starting from step 1 to finishing up wherever you want to be. And it's swings and roundabouts anyway; one week you can have a fantastic rhythm but need a little more softness. Then the next week you have a lot of softness and very supple work, but lacking impulsion.

It's not just about being able to do a HP, therefore you can do a medium test. You can use the SI and travers to improve the HP, which improves the balance and suppleness and reactiveness of the horse and thus improving the rest of the work.

The basics for me are - good contact, off the leg, lateral and longitudinal suppleness. Once you've got those (and really got those), everything else falls into place. If they're not falling into place, then the basics aren't good enough and/or there's a lack of basic understanding on the rider and/or horses part.


----------



## tristar (2 August 2017)

ah yes, one of the basics, longitudinal suppleness, being able to lengthen the frame and and stride in trot, also the horse being able to stretch forward in walk and take down the contact.

both the above could be considered proof of good basic training

considering most horses just broken, even before getting shod, will offer lengthened strides when on soft ground i can`t see what the fuss is about, or is it due to the early riding being too cautious or `safe` and not moving forward properly.

then of course you could throw into the ring the quality of the rider, their experience of encouraging a horse to express itself may not be the best, so the horse is `not able`and once accepting that how do you change that mindset.


----------



## ycbm (2 August 2017)

I think for the ordinary horse, there's a big difference between lengthened strides loose and lengthened strides carrying 15% of your bodyweight in a rider and track, even a very well balanced rider. And if the horse has the slightest tendency to tip onto its forehand, then asking for lengthening finds it out. I'm not sure that I agree with you that most newly broken ordinary horses will offer lengthened strides when newly sat on. And those that do are more likely, I think, to do it by flinging the hind legs out behind them than by lifting and pushing.


----------



## HufflyPuffly (2 August 2017)

Tristar, do you have any experience of breeds of horses with a high knee action?

You are getting very hung up on the lengthen stride and don't seem to be able to see that, no, some horses do not find this in any way natural. If you watch Topaz loose in the field, she will bounce about doing a cracking passage, I've never seen her offer her own extensions like my PBA or indeed the other carriage horse does.

Being supple, able to take the contact forwards and lengthen the frame are not quite the same as teaching a horse with an exaggerated knee action the ability to lengthen and straighten the leg to perform a medium or extended trot. If you taken a screen shot of Topaz, you can see she is covering more ground by pushing from behind and over tracking, however until the penny drops of straightening the limbs and moving fully through the shoulder she will never extend for a 10. This is not judges being biased, my mindset that she cannot extend (we're still trying and slowly improving) but that due to her conformation and the way she was born moving, she cannot perform the movement as required in affiliated dressage.

That penny does occasionally drop mind, excuse the dodgy leaning back, I think the shock of lengthening got to me :lol:!







Found another picture where I look less ridiculous
	
	
		
		
	


	






^ That doesn't happen often or even for a whole required movement, but I like to look at the screen shots to give me hope


----------



## ycbm (2 August 2017)

Agree with you Alex. My Clydex is a natural collector, not a natural extender. He's just getting it now, but it's taught not natural. Natural is what I call his Appleby Fair trot. Huge front leg throw, pile driving into the floor in front,  back legs in the next county behind us


----------



## tallyho! (2 August 2017)

nikkimariet said:



			Can the rider keep the horse soft and fluid from a medium trot to collected/etc? Can they ride from HP to an 8m circle without breaking the rhythm? Can they train the horse to changes legs seamlessly, remaining in the same tempo?

Medium trot is just one movement... A lot of people seem to get hung up on it? If you can do it for an 8, fabulous, well done. And if everything else is above a 7, then wahoo! But if your horse is yakking around with its hindlegs in another hemisphere and everything is a little crooked for a 5/6... 

There's a slight trend on this thread to insist on certain stages of training being in place before progressing (to another level etc). But that really isn't the case when starting from step 1 to finishing up wherever you want to be. And it's swings and roundabouts anyway; one week you can have a fantastic rhythm but need a little more softness. Then the next week you have a lot of softness and very supple work, but lacking impulsion.

It's not just about being able to do a HP, therefore you can do a medium test. You can use the SI and travers to improve the HP, which improves the balance and suppleness and reactiveness of the horse and thus improving the rest of the work.

The basics for me are - good contact, off the leg, lateral and longitudinal suppleness. Once you've got those (and really got those), everything else falls into place. If they're not falling into place, then the basics aren't good enough and/or there's a lack of basic understanding on the rider and/or horses part.
		
Click to expand...

This resonates with me, thank you nm.

The horse is half the partnership and as I eluded to earlier, I do feel that if you can both get to this level of harmony then you should get the points from judges.

However... at E/M/AM it's hard to compete against the ones who "can" push the marks with the "right" (read flashy horse) and I think this is what causes most disgruntlement - where your ordinary horse can perform a correct movement i.e. a nice extended trot/hp, the nice wb does it with a flicky thing but does an unbalanced circle and gets more. This is what is most demotivating about marks.

Whats' correct vs what get marks seems errr disunited.


----------



## star (2 August 2017)

Interesting reading. Maybe I should tell Monty no more PSG though as he can't extend to save his life so we better go back to Prelim! He pushed from behind but his conformation is so bad he is so downhill he cannot open and flick his shoulder. He's never going to get amazing marks at this level. We had scores of over 70% at all previous levels until advanced when our best was around 65%. So far at PSG best is 61.5%. He can do all the movements but he just doesn't move in the way they want to see at this level. Being 18yrs old, half Welsh and half TB and with pretty awful conformation he just does the best he can and I'm using him to give me a wonderful experience of riding at this level which I never ever dreamed he would in my wildest dreams! Hopefully that experience will do me good for the next horse who hopefully might have slightly better conformation and natural paces.


----------



## milliepops (2 August 2017)

star said:



			Being 18yrs old, half Welsh and half TB and with pretty awful conformation he just does the best he can and I'm using him to give me a wonderful experience of riding at this level which I never ever dreamed he would in my wildest dreams! Hopefully that experience will do me good for the next horse who hopefully might have slightly better conformation and natural paces.
		
Click to expand...

I love Monty and you're leading the way for a few of us on unlikely dressage steeds, I think - I have exactly the same feeling about my 2 - they're giving me opportunities and teaching me how to ride better... which I hope will give me a leg up when/if I do get a *proper* horse :lol:



ycbm said:



			I'm not sure that I agree with you that most newly broken ordinary horses will offer lengthened strides when newly sat on. And those that do are more likely, I think, to do it by flinging the hind legs out behind them than by lifting and pushing.
		
Click to expand...

I would tend to agree with this.  Quite a different exercise, having to engage and push to achieve "proper" lengthened strides with a rider on, rather than just prance or bog off.  I have found that medium canter comes more easily because once they have a kind of balance in canter, they are propelling themselves off the ground to a degree already, but even that takes a good bit of training to get the activity behind for a horse that is not a natural lengthener.


----------



## tristar (2 August 2017)

i said newly broken, meaning a several weeks of being ridden , not newly sat on meaning just backed! a natural balanced surge forward, a promise of delights to come further down the road.

the lengthening seems to have hit a nerve with those who have problems with it!

i certainly don`t have problems with it, never needing to err.......push? i was always under the impression that true lengthening came from the release of  built up energy.


----------



## rachk89 (2 August 2017)

The only time I got lengthened strides from my horse is down one long side of the arena. Funnily enough it's the one heading towards his stable and food. Otherwise he won't do it. 

Do you think judges will mind if I get people to stand around the arena holding buckets to make him prance better towards them?


----------



## milliepops (2 August 2017)

tristar said:



			i certainly don`t have problems with it, never needing to err.......push? i was always under the impression that true lengthening came from the release of  built up energy.
		
Click to expand...

Well... yes...  Which means that the horse steps under and pushes rather than being strung out pulling itself along...


----------



## daffy44 (2 August 2017)

tristar said:



			i said newly broken, meaning a several weeks of being ridden , not newly sat on meaning just backed! a natural balanced surge forward, a promise of delights to come further down the road.

the lengthening seems to have hit a nerve with those who have problems with it!

i certainly don`t have problems with it, never needing to err.......push? i was always under the impression that true lengthening came from the release of  built up energy.
		
Click to expand...

I certainly dont have a problem with it, my current two competing horses get 8's or 7.5 for their medium and extended trot at Inter1 and GP.  But I have worked with enough horses in my life to know that it is far more natural for some horses than others, and for some it really doesnt come at all, some naturally quicken rather than lengthen, and some would prefer to change pace.  But my point is that it really isnt very important, and it certainly shouldnt stop a combination from moving up the levels if everything else is in place.

ETA:  It certainly requires push to do a good extension


----------



## DabDab (2 August 2017)

tristar said:



			i said newly broken, meaning a several weeks of being ridden , not newly sat on meaning just backed! a natural balanced surge forward, a promise of delights to come further down the road.

the lengthening seems to have hit a nerve with those who have problems with it!

i certainly don`t have problems with it, never needing to err.......push? i was always under the impression that true lengthening came from the release of  built up energy.
		
Click to expand...

I'm not sure 'release of built up energy' is the term I'd use, that suggests you're (not you specifically, I mean 'one' but it sounds pretentious) collecting the trot right up before firing them off in medium until it naturally fizzles out into working trot again.....?
I don't have a problem with extending either, I've ridden a lot more natural extenders than anything else, because the nature of buying to back, produce a little and sell is that you pick youngsters that will easily get good marks for the cv at prelim and novice level  
But I am absolutely certain that there are numerous horses that simply do not have that gear installed naturally. They may well (and often are) perfectly capable of it physically, but it is not something that it would ever occur to them to offer during training, and you can spend years coaxing it out of them.


----------



## milliepops (2 August 2017)

DabDab said:



			but it is not something that it would ever occur to them to offer during training, and you can spend years coaxing it out of them.
		
Click to expand...

... meanwhile they can also be usefully learning stuff they might find easier and legitimately progress with the other higher level work which will ,  in turn,   help develop the issue of good lengthening 

A certain grey horse learned to do a medium out of passage,  for example :eek3: gave the concept of push/wait/lift/contact/go which would have been 1000 times harder if we'd stuck at novice level work.

Eta "not occurring" to them is the perfect description IME  :wink3:


----------



## ycbm (2 August 2017)

tristar said:



			i certainly don`t have problems with it, never needing to err.......push? i was always under the impression that true lengthening came from the release of  built up energy.
		
Click to expand...

It's not the rider pushing, it's the horse.

I would not describe it as the release of built up energy. That sounds to me  like winding up a clockwork toy and letting go of it, until it runs out. I would describe it as the creation of energy from the back end, channelled into both upward and forward movement. With equal importance that the additional energy can be switched off when the movement ends, without loss of balance. 

I'm surprised you haven't met any horses who don't do it naturally, and I wonder if we are all actually describing the same thing. 

If I watch my two in the field, one would always canter or run rather than trot bigger, and he is much less able to naturally lengthen the trot than the other when ridden.


----------



## nikkimariet (2 August 2017)

tallyho! said:



			This resonates with me, thank you nm.

The horse is half the partnership and as I eluded to earlier, I do feel that if you can both get to this level of harmony then you should get the points from judges.

However... at E/M/AM it's hard to compete against the ones who "can" push the marks with the "right" (read flashy horse) and I think this is what causes most disgruntlement - where your ordinary horse can perform a correct movement i.e. a nice extended trot/hp, the nice wb does it with a flicky thing but does an unbalanced circle and gets more. This is what is most demotivating about marks.

Whats' correct vs what get marks seems errr disunited.
		
Click to expand...

Fig has his weaknesses and his strengths. However, he's scoring high 60's at PSG and Inter 1 with a 70%+ record prelim to Advanced. 

A naturally soft and supple horse with a few bobbles will likely still score higher than a horse who is sweating blood to get a 6.5 for a circle (I know because that's me!).

I think it's fair that the better horse gets the better mark? 

Perhaps your point is that you (like me) do not appreciate horses being marked down for what they are not? Fig is mechanically and technically very correct, and I'll put myself out there and say I'm a good rider. I often look at my sheet and wonder what I would have to do to increase some marks lol.



tristar said:



			the lengthening seems to have hit a nerve with those who have problems with it!
		
Click to expand...

No, I think it's more that you speak from a self appointed pedestal that people have a problem with.



daffy44 said:



			But I have worked with enough horses in my life to know that it is far more natural for some horses than others, and for some it really doesnt come at all, some naturally quicken rather than lengthen, and some would prefer to change pace.  But my point is that it really isnt very important, and it certainly shouldnt stop a combination from moving up the levels if everything else is in place.
		
Click to expand...

100% agree Daffy. Fig get's 6-7 for med/ext trot and 7-7.5 for med/ext canter. He's not an 8 mover in that respect.

However, he has a piaffe that most would kill for, good piri's and is super talented in the lateral work. So we pick up marks in other aspects of any test.

Even some purpose breds find certain movements harder. And ultimately, a horse is only as good as it's rider...


----------



## milliepops (2 August 2017)

ycbm said:



			If I watch my two in the field, one would always canter or run rather than trot bigger, and he is much less able to naturally lengthen the trot than the other when ridden.
		
Click to expand...

Happily lots of horses who find the lengthening less natural often have strengths elsewhere ... dont know about yours but mine has found changes really natural,  for example,  whereas my natural lengthener found that very difficult.  Swings & roundabouts


----------



## daffy44 (2 August 2017)

Absolutely!  Thats the point, horses are like people, they all have their own strengths and weaknesses, they are not machines.  The horse with no weakness is a very rare and beautiful thing, its certainly not the norm.

So it doesnt matter what your horses best/worst traits are, just train them to the best of your ability, and enjoy what they can give you.


----------



## ycbm (2 August 2017)

milliepops said:



			Happily lots of horses who find the lengthening less natural often have strengths elsewhere ... dont know about yours but mine has found changes really natural,  for example,  whereas my natural lengthener found that very difficult.  Swings & roundabouts 

Click to expand...


True, they are rarely all good at everything 


For a reason I don't understand his medium canter is so easy to create and to bring back to working again. He's just mastered one change in each direction reliably and is clearly enjoying them (me too!).  He already piaffes 2-4 steps by shortening the walk until it's stopped moving forward, when he steps up into piaffe.  I'm loving training him at the moment.   He's not bad for a carthorse


----------



## CoachinaCar (5 August 2017)

You can't put in what God left out but you can enhance it.

Sorry if some of this has already been said as I have not read all the posts. You need to work on suppleness, you need exercises that get to parts of his body that other exercises don't, the more supple the more able to use his body to show medium steps and not just his legs.

Lots of trot canter trot canter, counter canter with the wrong bend so you really stretch his leading leg side. Lots of trot halt, halt trot, looking for sitting in the downward transition and coming up through the shoulder in the upward. train the reaction to the leg you want which is up through the shoulder when the leg goes on and not out through the shoulder, get height you will get length. 

Very short spurts of on and don't keep going if he has lost it, don't let him learn to do it incorrectly. 

Lots of leg yields in trot and canter with too much bend so it is a suppling exercise and reaction training exercise more than a perfect shoulder in. Stretching over his top line and then bringing him back up in the poll and out in the nose. 

The exercises to improve suppleness are endless and he needs to be supple everywhere to lengthen if it is not a normal thing for him, counter canter with the wrong bend into trot and then ask for medium would be my favorite but I would also say if he does not do it naturally and still struggle after training then don't spend too much time on it, spend more time on improving what he can do. Get and extra .5 for everything else and you can  still do well if only a 5 for the mediums. If you work like mad on the mediums the rest of the work will go downhill and you will probably only bring the medium mark up by 1 to 1.5 which is only twice in a test and if you have lost .5 on everything else you will be worse off.


----------



## tristar (5 August 2017)

my experience, if i`m allowed to say anything without being subjected to team sparkle aka n marriot   grenades.

 is,  that i work the horse in such a way, so gently that it looks like not a lot is happening yet it is on a very deep level, so when the horse is collected then asked for med or ex trot the result is completely natural yet dynamic release and surge forward of the whole horse which needs the minimal leg contact  mainly for communication and support, the result is 100 per cent due to the preparation and  it is strangely effortless, i find that the most subtle tact is the main ingredient to get there, almost going to a place where `trying ` is the last thing needed.


is there anyone who can answer op`s question or shed light or their own thoughts on the subject of flashy paces, i`d love to read others theories?


----------



## daffy44 (5 August 2017)

CoachinaCar said:



			You can't put in what God left out but you can enhance it.

Sorry if some of this has already been said as I have not read all the posts. You need to work on suppleness, you need exercises that get to parts of his body that other exercises don't, the more supple the more able to use his body to show medium steps and not just his legs.

Lots of trot canter trot canter, counter canter with the wrong bend so you really stretch his leading leg side. Lots of trot halt, halt trot, looking for sitting in the downward transition and coming up through the shoulder in the upward. train the reaction to the leg you want which is up through the shoulder when the leg goes on and not out through the shoulder, get height you will get length. 

Very short spurts of on and don't keep going if he has lost it, don't let him learn to do it incorrectly. 

Lots of leg yields in trot and canter with too much bend so it is a suppling exercise and reaction training exercise more than a perfect shoulder in. Stretching over his top line and then bringing him back up in the poll and out in the nose. 

The exercises to improve suppleness are endless and he needs to be supple everywhere to lengthen if it is not a normal thing for him, counter canter with the wrong bend into trot and then ask for medium would be my favorite but I would also say if he does not do it naturally and still struggle after training then don't spend too much time on it, spend more time on improving what he can do. Get and extra .5 for everything else and you can  still do well if only a 5 for the mediums. If you work like mad on the mediums the rest of the work will go downhill and you will probably only bring the medium mark up by 1 to 1.5 which is only twice in a test and if you have lost .5 on everything else you will be worse off.
		
Click to expand...

Brilliant, and beautifully described.


----------



## j1ffy (6 August 2017)

Tristar, I don't believe that was a Sparkles grenade, they're usually a lot more explosive. It's great that you find it so easy to get a true medium, but I doubt I'm alone in wondering what types of horses you have and the level you ride them to?

I have never seen my Spanish horses naturally extend in the field - one will do a passage-y type trot (and is now offering passage steps under saddle when we work on collected trot) but I have never seen him do a more ground-covering trot, he'll break into canter if he wants to get somewhere faster. My other has a nice medium under saddle but he trots like a donkey in the field and prefers a collected canter if he wants to show off.


----------



## Goldenstar (6 August 2017)

daffy44 said:



			Brilliant, and beautifully described.
		
Click to expand...

Yes very well put .


----------



## ycbm (6 August 2017)

counter canter with the wrong bend into trot and then ask for medium
		
Click to expand...

This is one I've never heard of before and it will be tested later today!

The whole of this post was excellent, and also a perfect description of how I have taught my Clydex. He can now do three proper lengthened strides, and is also strong enough to hold an elevated trot that feels very close to medium for several minutes. He's getting there! 


Incidentally, a friend commented on the large areas of muscle that he has behind the saddle, equal on both sides, firm and malleable. She thought they were abnormal. I think they are fantastic top line development. Views?


----------



## milliepops (6 August 2017)

ycbm said:



			Incidentally, a friend commented on the large areas of muscle that he has behind the saddle, equal on both sides, firm and malleable. She thought they were abnormal. I think they are fantastic top line development. Views?
		
Click to expand...

not a clue but my Welsh-built-like-a-brick-outhouse mare also has fairly well developed muscle behind the saddle, that wasn't there 3 years ago before she was brought back into work. She has a strong back and a good ability to sit, I guess the 2 go hand in hand possibly (she's not the natural extender!)  Physios etc always comment on her suppleness and stability, there's rarely any tight spots.


----------



## Wheels (6 August 2017)

ycbm said:



			This is one I've never heard of before and it will be tested later today!

The whole of this post was excellent, and also a perfect description of how I have taught my Clydex. He can now do three proper lengthened strides, and is also strong enough to hold an elevated trot that feels very close to medium for several minutes. He's getting there! 


Incidentally, a friend commented on the large areas of muscle that he has behind the saddle, equal on both sides, firm and malleable. She thought they were abnormal. I think they are fantastic top line development. Views?
		
Click to expand...

Do they appear to be bulky in comparison to the rest of the topline?  Or are they in keeping with the rest of his muscle development?

Any pics of said area?


----------



## ycbm (6 August 2017)

I think this photo shoots both his large musculature and the rise in his back muscles behind the saddle








 If photo doesn't show, I need to wait until broadband speeds up at midnight!


----------



## Goldenstar (6 August 2017)

Wheels said:



			Do they appear to be bulky in comparison to the rest of the topline?  Or are they in keeping with the rest of his muscle development?

Any pics of said area?
		
Click to expand...

That's my question if the loin muscles are more developed that those under the saddle and up on to the wither I would not be happy if he where mine .


----------



## ycbm (6 August 2017)

Let's try again. The wet string has dried out a bit now people are going to bed


----------



## Wheels (7 August 2017)

It's hard to see in the pic but I can see there is a minor over development in the loins, more so than the rest of the topline and that is not what I would want to see - over development in one spot can mean under development elsewhere, it could point to hind limb issues or there could be something going on in the deeper muscles.  It looks like your horse has quite a short back and longer lumbar area which can mean weaknesses in the joints, ligaments etc. in that particular area.

It can also be down to saddle fit issues - saddle too long or tipping back maybe or a seat too small for the rider that puts the weight too far back are among the saddle fit problems I see where horses are sore or stiff in this area.


----------



## ycbm (7 August 2017)

Thanks for that Wheels. 

He's not sore or stiff anywhere, except for having locking stifles which he appears to have mostly grown out of. He will occasionally 'drop off' the right one, but it's very infrequent these days. His development is equal, and his work has never been better. I fit my own saddles and I have for decades and never had a back problem yet that the horse wasn't born with. I'll call the physio for a check over, it won't hurt.  I think all I can do is to take it for now that it's what happens when a bum high cart horse learns to sit and wait. He's a joy to train at the moment 

Apologies for derailing this thread, everyone, I should have started another one.


----------



## Wheels (7 August 2017)

Stifle probless I suppose could cause this if he's having to work harder to sit - physio is a good idea but also just take an extra look at your saddle next time you ride, check headplate size etc. See if someone can take a short video in trot to see if it is bouncing or rocking - just to be on the safe side


----------



## ycbm (7 August 2017)

OK, thanks for the advice.


----------

