# Would having had OCD knock a lot off my 3 year olds value?



## rubyrumba (3 March 2011)

Even though you can't tell she has had it apart from a small patch of white hairs where the bandage rubbed. You wouldn't know the white hairs were caused by that though and you wouldn't even know that she'd had it!
Thanks in advance.


----------



## eventrider23 (3 March 2011)

In the aspect of full disclosure to a buyer I would say yes as I would hate to sell a horse, hide the fact that they had had surgery for something like that and have it them come back to bite them in the future....especially as if then discovered it would not be covered on insurance if revealed at a later date.


----------



## SusieT (3 March 2011)

Yes. I wouldn't buy her.
And if I discovered later when she developed arthritis that I had not been told about the OCD I would be back with a vengeance to sue the pants off the seller.


----------



## rubyrumba (3 March 2011)

I am stating that she has had OCD but I am asking how much it would take off her selling price? The vet tells me it will NEVER cause her to have anything from it. How many horses are actually sold that have had it that people don't know about?


----------



## SusieT (3 March 2011)

I would say if you were going to ask 2K, 1200 might be reasonable. IF 3K, maybe 2K, it really depends how nice she is otherwise. What treatment did she have?


----------



## lucydelaroche (3 March 2011)

Would certainly effect her value considerably from my point of view, as she would be a mare that I wouldn't ever consider breeding from in the future. 

I know research & beliefs on whether OCD is hereditary or not seem to fluctuate but with so many mares without it to breed from why take that risk?


----------



## rubyrumba (3 March 2011)

The surgeon that operated did work out in Germany/Holland and said it would beperfectly fine to breed from her as many studies were carried out and they could find no proof that it was heriditary, he has some very interesting knowledge.
This is the page I bought her from to get an idea her.
www.weekorchard.co.uk/Nareco.html


----------



## millitiger (3 March 2011)

IMO it would knock 40-50% off her value as a 4yro.

Obviously the older she gets and the more she does the less it affects the price as you can prove it hasn't affected her.


----------



## lucydelaroche (3 March 2011)

I'm afraid there are a lot of very knowledgeable vets, research scientists & breeders who would strongly disagree.  

Consider the fact that all potential warmblood stallions have to show that they are OCD free before being licensed.  Why should broodmares be treated any differently?   

Zangersheide Stud - One of the biggest sports horse breeding operations on the continent 
use the fact that all of their stallions are OCD free as a marketing tool.

There are several renowned cases where stallions who have proven themselves in sport have subsequently been approved for breeding, despite less than fantastic xray results.   Only time will tell whether there is a higher than normal/acceptable level of OCD in their offspring -  assuming we ever get to hear about the ones that do develop it 

I for one would simply not be prepared to breed from either a mare or stallion that had  been treated for OCD or has less than Grade 1 xrays.


----------



## JanetGeorge (3 March 2011)

lucydelaroche said:



			Consider the fact that all potential warmblood stallions have to show that they are OCD free before being licensed.  Why should broodmares be treated any differently?   

Zangersheide Stud - One of the biggest sports horse breeding operations on the continent 
use the fact that all of their stallions are OCD free as a marketing tool.
		
Click to expand...

X-rays only prove that there are no chips at the time a horse is x-rayed.  A good surgeon will leave absolutely NO mark to show where he's been - and the x-rays will look perfect in many cases!  I had a rather nice colt who developed a chip in his hock as a yearling!  We box rested him to settle it down, then gelded him, then had surgery to remove the chip!  

When I sold him, I of course disclosed the history and gave the buyer the name of the vet who operated.  The vet who carried out the vetting was told the horse had previously had a chip removed - and searched diligently for any signs (then had to ask which hock it was after completing a full 5* vetting which he passed with flying colours!)  And I didn't 'discount' him at all!  He was a super little horse who was well schooled and had a temperament to die for!

I am personally convinced that the hereditary aspects associated with OCD are good milk production in the mare - and good growth rates in the foal (sire and dam contribute.)  Apart from those aspects, it's over generous feeding - or feeding to much energy!


----------



## SusieT (3 March 2011)

IMO joints that are operated on always get arthritis, a view that is widely held. 
Her value has to reflect that she has a pre-existing problem I'm afraid, solved or not


----------



## lucydelaroche (3 March 2011)

Makes for very interesting reading.
http://www.hanoverian.org/ahs_media/downloads/articles/OCD.pdf


----------



## competitiondiva (3 March 2011)

JanetGeorge said:



			I am personally convinced that the hereditary aspects associated with OCD are good milk production in the mare - and good growth rates in the foal (sire and dam contribute.)  Apart from those aspects, it's over generous feeding - or feeding to much energy!
		
Click to expand...

I'd agree with this, I'll admit I don't know much about it, but you keep hearing about youngsters (mainly big) developing it and it seems to be put down to over feeding, steep growth rates etc.  If it was hereditary, or a good chance of it being so, wouldn't the studbooks be wanting all offspring developing the condition catalogued so that they could re-evaluate sires that have alot of offspring developing it?????  (or maybe they do, sorry if this is the case!?)

Whilst I sit on the fence with regard to the hereditary theory, I would agree that it would reduce the cost of a horse who has had it, at least until the horse is competing and you can see if it is affected on a ridden basis.


----------



## JanetGeorge (3 March 2011)

lucydelaroche said:



			Makes for very interesting reading.
http://www.hanoverian.org/ahs_media/downloads/articles/OCD.pdf

Click to expand...

It was VERY interesting indeed - though it posed more questions than it answered!  

There were several questions I would have liked to see explored: in particular in relation to the mares who showed evidence of OCD who had foals with OCD.  Were the mares bred on the same farm as their foals - which would suggest management practices (feed, exercise) almost certainly played a big part!

I have personally had 3 foals with OCD - and in ALL of them, the onset was associated with me bumping up the mares' feed (old mares losing weight in lactation) and one was associated ALSO with interruption of exercise as foal got a very bad foot abcess!  None has been 'random'!  The mares concerned had remained sound into old age, and all have had a number of full siblings for me - none of which has developed OCD.

On my very limited study - and after having read that study - I remain strongly convinced that over-feeding plays a FAR bigger part than genetics!


----------



## Booboos (3 March 2011)

I've had a horse with OCD that did not recover despite treatment, so I am afraid I would never knowingly put myself through the risk of that again. If she is a sports horse I think her medical history will seriously affect her price, perhaps is she is a good hack with a golden temperament she might hold her value more.


----------



## cptrayes (3 March 2011)

I'm sorry but no price above meat money would make me buy your mare, the risk is too great. At five, after working for two years maybe, but at three, no way at all.


----------



## coreteam1 (3 March 2011)

rubyrumba said:



			Even though you can't tell she has had it apart from a small patch of white hairs where the bandage rubbed. You wouldn't know the white hairs were caused by that though and you wouldn't even know that she'd had it!
Thanks in advance.
		
Click to expand...

I lost my mare through OCD ( previously wrote a thread about her on here).  She had it in her elbow and I'd had her approx 10 months. I was devestated when she died and I would be absolutely devestated to buy another one that had it, although I know many do go on and compete.  

My mare was pts and just before this I'd asked the vet what he thought about breeding from her and his reply was
''why would you breed from something, knowing she had OCD'' This was from a very good vet at Oakham

I am sorry about your mare and I hope she goes on to do things without any more lesions effecting her
Did you buy her knowing she had it or did she develop it after you bought her?


----------



## henryhorn (4 March 2011)

I'm afraid it would decimate her value for me, and if as a buyer I discovered she'd had it and I hadn't been told I would be cross (and be bringing her back)
Although the research shows it can be questionable whether it's hereditary or not with so many decent mares about why would anyone breed from one that was suspect?
Sorry, I wish I could say I felt differently.


----------



## jazmineduke (4 March 2011)

henryhorn said:



			I'm afraid it would decimate her value for me, and if as a buyer I discovered she'd had it and I hadn't been told I would be cross (and be bringing her back)
Although the research shows it can be questionable whether it's hereditary or not with so many decent mares about why would anyone breed from one that was suspect?
Sorry, I wish I could say I felt differently.
		
Click to expand...

I would never buy and breed from a mare with OCD as there so many excellent mares out there that have not got OCD it is not worth the risk of may be breeding a foal with OCD. But i do think a horse getting OCD may have something to do with the way they are feed as foals and to quick growth.


----------



## Maesfen (4 March 2011)

jazmineduke said:



			I would never buy and breed from a mare with OCD as there so many excellent mares out there that have not got OCD it is not worth the risk of may be breeding a foal with OCD. But i do think a horse getting OCD may have something to do with the way they are feed as foals and to quick growth.
		
Click to expand...

I have to agree but also bare in mind that many of the types to get it, are also asked to do far too much as youngsters which can't be good for growing joints.  People can't seem to wait now for a big horse to mature enough before working it and unless they can't see or feel a rib, think it is poor and bung more food in.


----------



## SmilingMadly (4 March 2011)

Interesting thread, with an interesting link.

As has been pointed out (and a slight deviation from the OP), many OCD ops leave no trace, many of these on breeding stallions.  And what about the OCD's that no one ever knows about?  Some horses have them as youngsters that are not picked up on and grow out of them.  I know of at least 1 stallion that this applies to, a young TB currently at stud in the UK that was sold as a foal at the sales due to his horrendous OCD's, making him an unlikely sales prospect as a yearling.  Yet this horse's x-rays passed the vet when put forward for grading...


----------



## rubyrumba (4 March 2011)

I would like to point out that She has HAD OCD and its been dealt with, it can't come back and all the other joints are x-rayed at that time to check. She just had it in her near side hock. SHE HAS NEVER BEEN LAME!
There will not be any ill effects from this. The vet stated in other countries where warmbloods are like sheep that it is routine for 18 month old warmbloodes to be x-rayed and if they have it then they just have the chip whipped out (as he put it)
He also said that everyone in the UK makes such a fuss over something which is not really that bad. He stated that it WILL NOT affect her performance or career AT ALL.
Looks like someone will be getting a bargain then.


----------



## Alexart (4 March 2011)

I agree with others here - I wouldn't pay anything for a horse which has had OCD so young.  I wouldn't expect a major career out of one either - maybe a happy hacker at the most to help minimise the wear and tear on the joints just so they last longer and the horse doesn't develop the inevitable arthritis so early so has a better quality of life. 

I think it's a combination of factors that predispose horses to it - genetics to some extent as certain conformational factors and therefore the way it moves, plus height and size of a horse must have a part to play.  Especially if it increases the wear and tear on the joint, like sickle hocks for example, so for me it would rule out breeding from such a horse.

Plus I think management also can increase the chances of a horse developing it - as others have said the growing trend in starting youngsters, especially the larger breeds, off under saddle/lunging etc too young ie. under 4 yrs old, it just knackers their legs.  
And feeding large amounts of hard feed resulting in youngsters carrying too much weight at crucial growth periods like the end of winter for the first few years.
Rugging which restricts their range of movement as well as stabling for long periods of time also don't help at all!!!

If she were mine I would either keep her to ensure she doesn't end up in the wrong hands and just left without care - as she will most likely cost someone alot in vet bills in the future, or I would give her to someone I know really well who just wants a pet to enjoy and hack out and who is going to bring her on slowly, and I would stress to whoever takes her to leave backing for at least another year or so to try and help and let her finish growing as much as possible.


----------



## Booboos (4 March 2011)

rubyrumba said:



			I would like to point out that She has HAD OCD and its been dealt with, it can't come back and all the other joints are x-rayed at that time to check. She just had it in her near side hock. SHE HAS NEVER BEEN LAME!
There will not be any ill effects from this. The vet stated in other countries where warmbloods are like sheep that it is routine for 18 month old warmbloodes to be x-rayed and if they have it then they just have the chip whipped out (as he put it)
He also said that everyone in the UK makes such a fuss over something which is not really that bad. He stated that it WILL NOT affect her performance or career AT ALL.
Looks like someone will be getting a bargain then.
		
Click to expand...

I don't mean to be rude, but as a buyer I would not be reasured by the claim that 'it can't come back'. My horse had stifle OCD, arthroscopy, 9 months box rest, brough back to work slowly and following all the vet's advice until the vet pronounced him 99% likely to be perfectly fine as a competition horse...only for the problem to recur 18 months after the initial diagnosis. Sadly, there was no more to be done at that stage.


----------



## woodlander (4 March 2011)

Well Rubyrumba...what a hornets' nest! I am sure that you must disclose the OCD surgery with a full explanation of the extent and location of the condition. A knowledgeable rider or breeder of sports horses would know that OC (D) which is "desicans" (if that is the correct spelling) is now endemic in almost every horse population. By endemic, I mean that the genetic predisposition is endemic, which may or may not result in the condition. The operation to "remove a chip" must be one of the most common undertaken and it would be totally wrong to say that warmblood stallions have to be OCD free to be licensed. This is certainly not true in German studbooks where X rays will be acceptable for licensing even with two chips. Some famous and very successful stallions had very poor X rays, indeed. A horse is more likely to be stopped in its competition career by soft tissue breakdown.

A successful operation for a chip would not reduce the value of a horse in my opinion, for sport. Some people just look for a reason to reduce the price of a horse but in my opinion this is not a good one. If the buyer is serious and the horse destined for the top, new x rays should be taken to ensure that there are not other OCD events.

From a breeding perspective, the key issue is nutrition which is not about whether or not you overfeed, although that does have other major consequences. The issue is more about sufficient provision of minerals and trace elements to ensure proper development of bone and cartilege. If the condition is, as it is, endemic not only in warmbloods but also in thoroughbreds, not using a mare for breeding would be a pity. I believe that although Zangersheide "outed" all their OCD screened mares that showed positive, they still have to "out" others as the condition, like everything else genetic, may or may not reappear from apparently "clear" animals.

This is not a subject about which to get too excited. There would be better reasons from my perspective for not breeding from a mare - no talent, bad front legs, weaving or cribbing, no movement or correct gaits, bad temperament, weak back, poorly set on head or neck to name the majors. Over the years, with many horses x rayed for sale and licensing,from over 200 bred we have had only a handful of horses with "chips"  and with the exception of one, there have been no ill effects apart from some temporary loss of training time. The secret is, normally, the feeding and the husbandry. Plenty of movement as young horses and on HARD surfaces to encourage the right bone development.

I believe that many horses are sold with clear X rays but it would not be across the board that the vendor would admit that they are clean because a chip has been removed. I have decided in the past, not to buy an really exceptional young colt when its X rays showed chips on every limb. This was a bridge too far and also an indication of the quality of its rearing, in my opinion.


----------



## rubyrumba (4 March 2011)

woodlander said:



			Well Rubyrumba...what a hornets' nest! I am sure that you must disclose the OCD surgery with a full explanation of the extent and location of the condition. A knowledgeable rider or breeder of sports horses would know that OC (D) which is "desicans" (if that is the correct spelling) is now endemic in almost every horse population. By endemic, I mean that the genetic predisposition is endemic, which may or may not result in the condition. The operation to "remove a chip" must be one of the most common undertaken and it would be totally wrong to say that warmblood stallions have to be OCD free to be licensed. This is certainly not true in German studbooks where X rays will be acceptable for licensing even with two chips. Some famous and very successful stallions had very poor X rays, indeed. A horse is more likely to be stopped in its competition career by soft tissue breakdown.

A successful operation for a chip would not reduce the value of a horse in my opinion, for sport. Some people just look for a reason to reduce the price of a horse but in my opinion this is not a good one. If the buyer is serious and the horse destined for the top, new x rays should be taken to ensure that there are not other OCD events.

From a breeding perspective, the key issue is nutrition which is not about whether or not you overfeed, although that does have other major consequences. The issue is more about sufficient provision of minerals and trace elements to ensure proper development of bone and cartilege. If the condition is, as it is, endemic not only in warmbloods but also in thoroughbreds, not using a mare for breeding would be a pity. I believe that although Zangersheide "outed" all their OCD screened mares that showed positive, they still have to "out" others as the condition, like everything else genetic, may or may not reappear from apparently "clear" animals.

This is not a subject about which to get too excited. There would be better reasons from my perspective for not breeding from a mare - no talent, bad front legs, weaving or cribbing, no movement or correct gaits, bad temperament, weak back, poorly set on head or neck to name the majors. Over the years, with many horses x rayed for sale and licensing,from over 200 bred we have had only a handful of horses with "chips"  and with the exception of one, there have been no ill effects apart from some temporary loss of training time. The secret is, normally, the feeding and the husbandry. Plenty of movement as young horses and on HARD surfaces to encourage the right bone development.

I believe that many horses are sold with clear X rays but it would not be across the board that the vendor would admit that they are clean because a chip has been removed. I have decided in the past, not to buy an really exceptional young colt when its X rays showed chips on every limb. This was a bridge too far and also an indication of the quality of its rearing, in my opinion.
		
Click to expand...


At last! Someone who understands. I think most do not fully understand OCD or have not had enough to do with it. I have thoroughly researched it and spoken to many and it is said that the British are far too OTT and see it as far worse than it really is.
Her x-rays are clear now and since she was never lame to begin. 
I am going to state that she has had it but like I said earlier if i didn't then my surgeon says it would be near enough impossible to ever tell...


----------



## TGM (4 March 2011)

rubyrumba said:



			I think most do not fully understand OCD or have not had enough to do with it. I have thoroughly researched it and spoken to many and it is said that the British are far too OTT and see it as far worse than it really is.
		
Click to expand...

And that is why that if you sell her in the UK her value is likely to be reduced.  It doesn't really matter what the scientific evidence is (although it does seem to be a grey area), it is the public perception about OCD that counts.  As seen from this thread, there are lots of people who would not dream of buying an animal with a history of OCD, and this therefore reduces your market, and therefore her market price.  However, there is always the chance that you will get lucky and find a buyer who shares your views about OCD and is looking for a filly that is exactly like yours.  If that is the case then you may get more money for her.


----------



## JanetGeorge (4 March 2011)

Alexart said:



			I agree with others here - I wouldn't pay anything for a horse which has had OCD so young.  I wouldn't expect a major career out of one either -
		
Click to expand...

Oh dear - the misunderstanding regarding this condition is enormous!!  While horses might only be diagnosed at a later age, a horse that doesn't have OCD by the time it is 3 is VERY unlikely to ever have it!  Some experts say it is present by a year old in virtually all cases.

Sometimes it is symptomless until a horse is put into serious work, but it IS there!  The reasons some horses have poor results from surgery are many and various - sometimes it's as simple as surgery being carried out too soon, while 'chips' are still forming.  So the later chips might only be present a week after the earlier ones are removed.  Or if chips are left too long, they may damage the articular surfaces of the joint and set up early arthritis (but that damage will be visible on arthroscopy.)  A LOT of top performance WBs had 'bone mice' removed at 2 or 3 years of age, and go on to top their sports, produce top offspring, etc. etc. etc. and if no-one tells, no-one knows!

Sadly, rubyrumba, I'm not in the market for a lovely WB filly - if I was, I'd have no hesitation in looking at yours!!  And a chip - properly removed - would NOT deter me!  Nor would I expect her to be knocked down!  After all, unless you x-ray anything as part of 5 stage vetting, chances are good that ANY youngster you buy might have one!  If the surgery has already been done, that's a £2,000 bonus!


----------



## Maesfen (4 March 2011)

Just as an aside.  A friend has just bought an Oldenburg mare, imported as a yearling for a great amount of money.  She developed OCD at two but has not been operated on and is now sound at four.  From a £9000 yearling with good bloodline, she has gone down to meat money to be a pet.


----------



## JanetGeorge (4 March 2011)

Maesfen said:



			Just as an aside.  A friend has just bought an Oldenburg mare, imported as a yearling for a great amount of money.  She developed OCD at two but has not been operated on and is now sound at four.  From a £9000 yearling with good bloodline, she has gone down to meat money to be a pet.
		
Click to expand...

Why does the owner not have the chips removed?  She'd then have a very nice riding/competition mare who could have a good career!


----------



## Maesfen (4 March 2011)

Stupid isn't it, but seller has another horse that she loves and didn't gel with this one at all so wasn't prepared to pay, just wanted a nice home for her.  New owner might but I won't bank on her having the readies for it either.


----------



## TarrSteps (5 March 2011)

Many good points have been raised, both about the realities of OCD and about how perceptions of it impact on marketability.  I do know horses for whom it has been career ending but there is absolutely no doubt there are horses at the top of their sport with a history of it.

I will say though, there certainly ARE people out their buying horses with a history of OCD who know nothing about it, through racing.  LOTS of horses have chips removed and then change hands or are sold through trainers or rehab places that are unaware of the horse's history, not because people are wilfully misleading but because so many surgical procedures are so common in the TB world now people don't even think to mention them if there aren't any long term issues.  I wonder, if people looked, how many horses have tie backs, fasciaotomies, neurectomies etc, not to mention ones that have been treated with Tildren or other fairly invasive therapies.  Many, given time to grow up and sort themselves out (and, to be fair, released from the demands of racing) never take another bad step.  

Which is not to say I don't think buyers should have the information - it's a legal requirement, not to mention an ethical one - just pointing out there are lots of horses out there with "history" you'd never know about if you didn't know.


----------



## rubyrumba (5 March 2011)

JanetGeorge said:



			Oh dear - the misunderstanding regarding this condition is enormous!!  While horses might only be diagnosed at a later age, a horse that doesn't have OCD by the time it is 3 is VERY unlikely to ever have it!  Some experts say it is present by a year old in virtually all cases.

Sometimes it is symptomless until a horse is put into serious work, but it IS there!  The reasons some horses have poor results from surgery are many and various - sometimes it's as simple as surgery being carried out too soon, while 'chips' are still forming.  So the later chips might only be present a week after the earlier ones are removed.  Or if chips are left too long, they may damage the articular surfaces of the joint and set up early arthritis (but that damage will be visible on arthroscopy.)  A LOT of top performance WBs had 'bone mice' removed at 2 or 3 years of age, and go on to top their sports, produce top offspring, etc. etc. etc. and if no-one tells, no-one knows!

Sadly, rubyrumba, I'm not in the market for a lovely WB filly - if I was, I'd have no hesitation in looking at yours!!  And a chip - properly removed - would NOT deter me!  Nor would I expect her to be knocked down!  After all, unless you x-ray anything as part of 5 stage vetting, chances are good that ANY youngster you buy might have one!  If the surgery has already been done, that's a £2,000 bonus!
		
Click to expand...


AS i said earlier,in Germany/Holland (wherever) where my vet worked, It was routine at 18 months as it would show up by then if they were going to get it.

It'll be a £5000 bonus for her as they removede the chip first, looked in with arthroscopy a second time to check that it was all perfect. Lots of x-rays after and irap treatment. 
He said you could not tell that anything was ever wrong from her x-rays. You can't tell at all in actual fact but I tell everyone as EVRYONE I speak to doesn't know anything about it or knows minimal (a little bit of knowledge is dangerous comes in here!!)

There is no doubt she will go onto have a career as if she hadn't had it. Can't believe some said she is only suitable to be a hack. She is a big strapping girl and definitely has NO sign of any weakness. 

If she had not had OCD then I think I would describe her as a perfect horse in every way imaginable and you can't say that too often!!

As long as people don't have this silly opinion or will speak to my vet about her I should sell her quite easily, she sells herself really.


----------



## Booboos (5 March 2011)

rubyrumba said:



			AS i said earlier,in Germany/Holland (wherever) where my vet worked, It was routine at 18 months as it would show up by then if they were going to get it.

It'll be a £5000 bonus for her as they removede the chip first, looked in with arthroscopy a second time to check that it was all perfect. Lots of x-rays after and irap treatment.
		
Click to expand...

OK, fair enough maybe I am not fully informed on all aspects of the condition, but as you may come across this a lot in the UK why not sell her from Germany/Holland? A 5k bonus should more than cover the expense of shipping her over and putting her on livery for a couple of weeks.


----------



## cruiseline (5 March 2011)

I have and will continue (if the horse is suitable in all other aspects) to purchase horses that have either OCD chips or had chips removed, of course after letting my vets have a look at the full x-rays. My vets here in Dubai are European (not British) and their thinking towards OCD is completely different from a British one.

Our top mare Mafalda De Bellevue (Umm Khammas) a registered Selle Francais by Scherif D'Elle who is a son of Jalisco B out of a mare by Lucifer De Sames x Dans who is by Florestan II. Was purchased from a professional show jumping yard, on her pre-purchase x-rays she showed chips in both hocks as well as one in a fetlock. After discussions with our vet, we decided to go ahead with the purchase and have the chips removed surgically, that was 3 years ago.

To date this mare has finished more than 1800km under race conditions alone at speeds in excess of 25km per hour. If we were to add up the total kilometres she has completed under saddle since we purchased her, it would be well in excess of 5,000km (competition and training).

Foxtrott 40 another one of our horses was purchased with chips, which were removed. He has probably competed a total of more that 8,000 km under saddle (competition and training) during his endurance career at speeds in excess of 28km an hour, just google their names and see the results for yourself.

So I would have to TOTALLY disagree that a horse who has had OCD chips removed would only ever be good as a light hack or worse!!!!!


----------



## cruiseline (5 March 2011)

I just wanted to add, that I would be more inclined not to buy a horse with bad feet than a horse with OCD chips, which IMO are far easier to correct.


----------



## lucydelaroche (5 March 2011)

Rubyrumba - Be careful not to fall into the trap of believing that those of us who do not share your beliefs on OCD simply have little or no knowledge of the condition, hence are formulating our opinions from less understanding than yourself.

As a breeder of Sports Horses I have taken a very serious & proactive interest in the condition. I do not want to breed or raise animals that will not go on to fulfil their potential!  I am constantly seeking the latest scientific research & data - a lot of which comes out of America as they are seemingly less paranoid about publishing results re OCD  studies: KER being one of the leading bodies, from which there is a wealth of fascinating reading on the subject.

In fact, I switched to feeding Saracen Feeds over two years ago because of research findings which came out of KER regarding glycemic response and the incidence of OCD. Saracen Feeds have a product called Level Grow (google it!) which has been formulated in response to the findings. The entire Saracen Stud range is well thought out & backed up by science.  

Furthermore, we do annual soil sampling & apply trace elements to grazing & haylage fields where needed: Not merely piling N,P,K on fields in an arbitrary manner but rather ensuring that the often little considered elements are in attendance too! As Woodlander pointed out OCD is believed to be as much to do with certain things lacking from diets, both of in foal mares & youngsters, as diets that are too rich in anything. Again Saracen Feeds have products such as Mare Care & Stamm 30 which I believe help.

I think it is undeniable that there is a genetic predisposition to OCD, what we as breeders have to do is recognize & manage this risk.  It is interesting you mention that your filly is a strapping girl as there is a link between size & growth rate, both aspects which are obviously to a greater extent genetically determined but can to a lesser extent be effected by management.

I wish you well with selling your filly but please don't shoot people down for giving their opinions - you did ask for them after all.


----------



## henryhorn (5 March 2011)

RR looking back through your older  posts there seems to be a bit of difference in what you say above and then. In your old post you say they found more the second time and  removed it, so that isn't quite what you say above is it? 
I feel you are being a little blinkered assuming everyone else has never researched the condition and are just plain ignorant, quite a few people on here have been breeding horses for a considerable time.
Saying people are silly for not agreeing with you is  likely to have more people expressing their opinions which may be the opposite to your own.
No-one including you and your vet can say decisively it will NEVER affect her in the future, and the fact remains, she has already had two operations before she was an adult, and any invasive technique on bones and joints can eventually lead to arthritis when older. 
My advice would be to start her when 4, compete her to a decent level and then when she has proved herself to be sound for several years, sell her as she stands then. At least you will have proved that she is able to work perfectly normally and she will if she is as good as you say be worth a lot of money as a proven comp. horse.


----------



## Alexart (5 March 2011)

I'm sure your filly is lovely - no-one has questioned that but as with breeding anything there are risks especially horses as they are just vet bills with hooves, it is a very expensive hobby that often never goes to plan!  
I have done alot of research on OCD as I have bred, for many years, sport horses and friesians - both prone to OCD, so plenty of research to help limit it was a must, as others have said just because we haven't given you the answer you wanted doesn't mean we know nothing about OCD!
The thing with OCD is not just joint mice - fair enough remove them and it will limit the damage - although they will have done some damage whilst floating around and caused the original swelling and lameness that made you get x-rays done in the first place, but OCD is also the microscopic damage to the joint surface itself and the underlying bone which supports it.  
With OCD once the damage to the joint surface has occurred it is irreparable, the bone will heal to some extent in younger horses who's growth plates haven't fused, and it can be managed to a certain point, but the active lifestyle and career will be shorter than a horse without that damage as arthritis will set in earlier - the more strenuous the career the more wear and tear.  
From a buyers point of view the challenge of keeping horses sound is huge, not to mention getting a horse to the top is very expensive, so why start with a horse that has a known problem that could potentially be very limiting at worst crippling, and saying it will never come back is not true - as the damage has been done - so be careful how you word things to a potential buyer.

Has anyone got a link to that article on the study done on WB youngsters about the links of 24/7 turnout vs. stabling and the levels of OCD?  That showed that horses kept out from birth 24/7 had no incidence of OCD - those stabled - one group was in 24/7 the other in at night and out during the day.  Those in all the time all developed OCD and the others had it mildly - someone had a link on here ages ago?


----------



## cptrayes (5 March 2011)

DO not forget also that the buyer is required to tell their insurance company, and I'd be surprised if they did not exclude the leg which has been operated on from future insurance. So even if the OCD does not bother her any more, she's uninsurable for future arthritis or tendon strain, for example, in that leg. That on its own will reduce her price in any market where the buyer intends to insure. She may keep her value as a pro's potential horse, but not as an amateur's.


----------



## magic104 (5 March 2011)

Interesting thread, but I do believe that no one can confirm this horse will or wont have a competition career based on her medical condition.  It just seems that there are so many medical issues that affect one horse worse then another & the same with people.  Only time will tell, it is whether you find a person willing to take the risk, & pay what you value her at.


----------



## Touchwood (5 March 2011)

Agree with the posters above who have said people in the UK make much more of a fuss than they need to.

There is far more OCD around than people know about - many of you could already have a horse with OCD and not know it (chips already removed).

Someone also mentioned racehorses.  Well most of the top TB studs xray every single one of their yearlings and get their chips removed.  In fact, I know one stud that had its own xray machine they did it so much!


----------



## LadyRascasse (5 March 2011)

as a potential buyer, not knowing alot about the condition, it wouldn't put me off the horse if she passed a 5 star vetting and my own vet agree with your vet on her future. as for value as long as it wouldn't affect her competition life and soundness i would be prepared to pay market value for her.


----------



## rubyrumba (5 March 2011)

henryhorn said:



			RR looking back through your older  posts there seems to be a bit of difference in what you say above and then. In your old post you say they found more the second time and  removed it, so that isn't quite what you say above is it?
		
Click to expand...


HH, I think you have misread something as this was not the case. They had a look 'in case' they found nothing and I can find nothing in my older posts that says that. 

I may have come across as quite rude to some of you and am very sorry for that. I hope my apologies are accepted! 
There seems to be very definite for or against opinions with OCD. 
I will just have to see how it goes. Interestingly NFU haven't said they won't cover that leg anymore but her cover is £46/month!


----------



## Foxfolly (6 March 2011)

I own a horse that was operated on for bilateral OCD in his stifles before I got him, I was actually given him but not because his value was reduced, I would have happily paid good money for him, it was only due to his owners circumstances that he wasn't sold!

His OCD was operated on and he has not had a moment of related lameness since.... I say related as he fractured his pedal bone a year after his OCD op... but then he is a bit of an accident prone sod!!

But with everything he has had done he is now a very sound 16yo. He has competed not at a high level but competed all the same year in and out since his OCD which was when he was about 7yo. 

I was under the impression that if the horse came sound after the op then it is highly unlikely it will return. I also know from someone very reliable that there are some big names in eventing whose top horses have had OCD as youngsters and had ops, come right and carried on to the top level! I only know of one horse that didn't come right and was PTS but then he never came right from the op and didn't have the greatest conformation anyway which may well have been a contributing factor.

OCD definitely wouldn't put me off so long as it had been dealt with and the horse was sound. I would probably more inclined to have pre-purchase x-rays taken, but if they were clear then it wouldn't put me off buying, although tbh I might use it as a bartering point for price.. ;-)


----------



## sovereign sea (7 March 2011)

interesting Thread, i had ocd chips removed from a young horse recently and he is perfectly sound so i wouldnt feel the need to disclose the fact that chips were removed.


----------



## millitiger (7 March 2011)

sovereign sea said:



			interesting Thread, i had ocd chips removed from a young horse recently and he is perfectly sound so i wouldnt feel the need to disclose the fact that chips were removed.
		
Click to expand...

seriously??


----------

