# All 4 feet lameness that isn't laminitis?



## viola (15 March 2012)

Hi,
Does anyone have any ideas as to causes of all four feet lameness that is not laminitis (ruled out by the vet)? Horse has either huge sole sensitivity (he is barefoot) or other issue (some lameness decreases when blocked to the back of foot but still very lame on hard surface).

Presents as extreme feet soreness, horse tries trotting "straight legged" and shifting weight acutely. Both front and back affected but front worse.

Any guesses? :-/


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## alsiola (15 March 2012)

How was laminitis ruled out?


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## be positive (15 March 2012)

It certainly sounds like laminitis, why does the vet think it is not and what treatment has he advised?


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## YasandCrystal (15 March 2012)

My horse got cast 2 nights ago and her symptoms were stiffness alround and heat in all 4 feet. It looked just like laminitis, but the wall marks showed she had got cast. I have been giving her Danilon and fitting an anti cast roller since.


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## flintfootfilly (15 March 2012)

Well, I have a now retired horse who had 8 different things wrong with her and caused her to move oddly with all four legs.  Main things found at AHT when she was 9 years old (and very low mileage) were fibrotic myopathy in one hind leg, some other problem causing fibrotic myopathy-type gait equally in both hind limbs, intermittently locking stifle, a couple of hotspots on her pelvis, sidebone on both front feet, damage to the deep digital flexor tendon at the point of insertion on one front foot, some damage to navicular in both front feet.  They suspected another lameness in one of the hind limbs, but didn't pursue that given all the other findings.

So multiple issues can cause lamenesses in all four legs.

However, I'd agree with the others that laminitis would be number 1 on my list, and I'd be making sure the horse was managed as though he had laminitis as a precaution.

Other than that, I'd be looking into the horse's history to try and work out what might be happening.  Has the horse always moved like that?  Has it come on recently?  Does it tie in with access to more grass, new hay etc?  Has the horse been doing lots of trotting on roads etc etc.

Hope you manage to get to the bottom of things.

Sarah


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## viola (15 March 2012)

Vet ruled out laminitis because there is no heat in the hooves whatsoever and no hoof sensitivity on testing as such. 

We X-rayed feet and hocks (he was previously diagnosed with navicular changes in 2010 and some hind limb lameness was suggested too. He is 7 now) but after 18 months barefoot his navicular bones look like new?? Hock X-rays clean.


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## cptrayes (15 March 2012)

Viola have you taken him off grass? I don't think you can rule out laminitis until you remove him from grass and feed him only soaked hay and see what happens. I'd put quite a lot of money on it being laminitis at the moment.

The xray news is fabulous! Unless I am mistaken he is a Rockley Rehab? And who says navicular bones can't heal !!!


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## be positive (15 March 2012)

It does not always present with heat and some are not very sensitive to hoof testers, does he have a pulse often this is all that shows to start with. My laminitic pony never has warm feet so I do not use that as a guide. 
I would treat as if it is laminitis, any soreness in the feet  needs pain relief, a deep bed, rest and a low sugar/starch diet, better to act on it even if it later proves to be something else, mine looked as if he had tied up when he first got it and was not in any way classic in his symptoms.


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## viola (15 March 2012)

flintfootfilly said:



			Well, I have a now retired horse who had 8 different things wrong with her and caused her to move oddly with all four legs.  Main things found at AHT when she was 9 years old (and very low mileage) were fibrotic myopathy in one hind leg, some other problem causing fibrotic myopathy-type gait equally in both hind limbs, intermittently locking stifle, a couple of hotspots on her pelvis, sidebone on both front feet, damage to the deep digital flexor tendon at the point of insertion on one front foot, some damage to navicular in both front feet.  They suspected another lameness in one of the hind limbs, but didn't pursue that given all the other findings.

So multiple issues can cause lamenesses in all four legs.

However, I'd agree with the others that laminitis would be number 1 on my list, and I'd be making sure the horse was managed as though he had laminitis as a precaution.

Other than that, I'd be looking into the horse's history to try and work out what might be happening.  Has the horse always moved like that?  Has it come on recently?  Does it tie in with access to more grass, new hay etc?  Has the horse been doing lots of trotting on roads etc etc.

Hope you manage to get to the bottom of things.

Sarah
		
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Wow and I thought this horse has had his share of problems...


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## viola (15 March 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Viola have you taken him off grass? I don't think you can rule out laminitis until you remove him from grass and feed him only soaked hay and see what happens. I'd put quite a lot of money on it being laminitis at the moment.

The xray news is fabulous! Unless I am mistaken he is a Rockley Rehab? And who says navicular bones can't heal !!!
		
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Yes he is! And he was doing OK up until January, then had an odd lameness on off fore which looked like tendon/ligament strain, then all feet soreness shortly afterwards.
He is off grass. 

The vet has ruled out laminitis, not me. But I do find it odd that the problems started after a week in a field on grass in January and yet laminitis is not even suspected?

He is on bare paddock right now and on hay only, very pro-lami diet anyway and has been on it for over 18 months.

Can seaweed supplement be an issue for laminitic horses?


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## cptrayes (15 March 2012)

Personally I wouldn't feed seaweed to any horse who is not known to be deficient in iodine AND iron, it is high in both. Excess iron can cause lack of copper and that can cause both anaemia and insulin regulation problems. I don't know what excess iodine does but I know it's not good.

Unless you have had an analysis of your hay done, I would supplement about 200mg a day of copper. That's below any poisonous level but will help to correct any lack of it in his system. I've had terrific results with concavity and copper in one of  my horses (I have high iron and manganese, both bad for copper absorption). Forageplus sell a copper bioplex which is exactly 10% copper, so you would feed 2 grammes. It costs a pittance at that dose.

I assume you are feeding both yeast and magnesium?

A week on grass in January with frost? Still sounds like a laminitis episode to me.

Lots of horses have one signature foot that goes before the rest do, it's possible the one leg lameness was the first sign of laminitis.


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## viola (15 March 2012)

be positive said:



			It does not always present with heat and some are not very sensitive to hoof testers, does he have a pulse often this is all that shows to start with. My laminitic pony never has warm feet so I do not use that as a guide. 
I would treat as if it is laminitis, any soreness in the feet  needs pain relief, a deep bed, rest and a low sugar/starch diet, better to act on it even if it later proves to be something else, mine looked as if he had tied up when he first got it and was not in any way classic in his symptoms.
		
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No pulses.
His diet is feet friendly anyway so not much scope for change there as he is on pretty much on un-molasses speedibeet and supplements only plus hay. 
He is on paddock rest with deep bed anyway now to ease discomfort but that;s interesting re different symptoms, thank you!


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## viola (15 March 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Personally I wouldn't feed seaweed to any horse who is not known to be deficient in iodine AND iron, it is high in both. Excess iron can cause lack of copper and that can cause both anaemia and insulin regulation problems. I don't know what excess iodine does but I know it's not good.

A week on grass in January with frost? Still sounds like a laminitis episode to me.
		
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He gets it as a broad spectrum supplement but I'll take him off it. And yes, this is why I am surprised laminitis is ruled out :-/


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## viola (15 March 2012)

To add - He's been off grass since Feb 16th but no improvement


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## cptrayes (15 March 2012)

Is his paddock completely devoid of grass, or does it have short stuff on it? I expect you know already that short grass is very high in sugar? If it has none, and you soak his hay for 12 hours in plenty of water, I would have expected a big improvement by now if it was laminitic ..... so now I'm stumped, sorry 

I think I would be looking for a test for insulin resistance, which causes the symptoms that you have in a mare belonging to a friend of mine, even when only on soaked hay and metformin. I'd probably test for Cushings too, as that can do the same.


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## viola (15 March 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Is his paddock completely devoid of grass, or does it have short stuff on it? I expect you know already that short grass is very high in sugar? If it has none, and you soak his hay for 12 hours in plenty of water, I would have expected a big improvement by now if it was laminitic ..... so now I'm stumped, sorry 

I think I would be looking for a test for insulin resistance, which causes the symptoms that you have in a mare belonging to a friend of mine, even when only on soaked hay and metformin. I'd probably test for Cushings too, as that can do the same.
		
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There are tufts of grass but very slight and he doesn't really have much interest in it but yes I do know about short grass. It's that or box rest which makes him much much worse. 
We don't actually soak his hay, just rinse, but I'll start just in case...

I am shocked though as he was fine and really great on hard ground in the beginning of Jan in the same environment!


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## LucyPriory (16 March 2012)

Hi Viola

My old horse was diagnosed with sprains for years by a very highly qualified experienced vet.  It turned out to be laminitis.

With both my old and current horse, unsoaked hay (or straw) are sufficient to cause laminitis.  A rinse or short soak are not enough (for them) it had/has to be at least 12 hours with a good rinse off in clean water afterwards.  (To get rid of the hay beer).

I have had some hay tested recently one batch was over 18% sugar and it was over 21% sugar/starch combined.  The other batch was very high in iron.  (The lab was surprised).  High iron blocks absorption of other minerals, such as zinc and copper and these minerals are essential for good foot health.

As I have found with mine, not all horses present with laminitis in a way which could be considered 'classic'.  This finding has been replicated in the brumby studies.  On the outside the hoof looks and tests ok.  It was only upon dissection that they found the horses in question had lami.

And copper needs to be balanced to zinc 1:3

All the best


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## popularfurball (16 March 2012)

We are having problems too - and our field is knee deep mud. There is no grass to be seen so I've been putting hay out (they only have day turnout)... I got up at a different time yesterday to find them both grazing... They are eating all the grass so it looks like very little


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## dilbert (16 March 2012)

You poor thing, what a nightmare. Definately get blood tests done for insuline resistance, my boy had bloods dne las year and they did a profile for Lammi, insulin resistance and cushings type issues. If you've not looked already, dr Kellon is very good with these issues , lots of info if you google her. If you join the yahoo groups she belongs too she's very good at replying....thing it's the ECIR horse or something.....


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## Irishbabygirl (16 March 2012)

Sorry if someone has suggested this already as I only skipped through the other posts but has your farrier had a look at him at all? 
It may be something as simple as four bruised soles? This happened to my boy this time of year a few years ago.  I had retired him that winter so his shoes were off and I had moved him to a different paddock a week or so prior to his lameness. This paddock had rutted up over winter then dried out, and walking on the ruts just caused him to go lame.
Bless him he looked horrendous and didn't know what to do with himself.  He was so sore and the vet didn't know what it was, and ruled out laminitis too.
So I called the farrier and he came up - it was bruised soles - he stuck on some lightweight racing aluminium front shoes on him and I kept him in for a week on a massively deep straw bed, bit of bute for a few days and hay presto! Sound horse!


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## meesha (16 March 2012)

I would treat as laminitus but check other possibilities - get a qualified back person out to check that he isnt "out" anywhere as this could be making him compensate and look lame.  Also if you put hoof boots on and trot up is he much better ? if no change then it may imply its not sole related (could obv still be lami though)

We thought a neighbours pony had lami and she treated it as such - a while later she found he had seedy toe !

But, my guess would be lami or back issues

Only one other thought azortoria "tying up" this can make them very very stiff.

Hope you find the cause soon.


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## Clava (16 March 2012)

I would get a second opinion from another vet. It certainly sounds like lami/ grass sensitivity.


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## amandap (16 March 2012)

viola said:



			To add - He's been off grass since Feb 16th but no improvement
		
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Apologies for jumping in the middle of your thread but are you feeding soaked hay as well?

I agree with the others it sounds like laminitis. If he is off grass and being fed soaked hay then minerals are definitely the next step zinc and copper are usually deficient. Salt and magnesium and vitamin E are a must on this diet. Look at your bucket feeds, drop any alfalfa etc. etc. Don't feed straw it can be high in sugars.

Ps. Just read the rest of your thread and see you are going to soak hay, rinse as well.



viola said:



			I am shocked though as he was fine and really great on hard ground in the beginning of Jan in the same environment! 

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Definitely get him tested for IR and Cushings.
Even tufts of grass can be a problem for very sensitive horses. Hopefully soaking and rinsing the hay will improve him. x


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## viola (16 March 2012)

Thank you for all replies, really appreciate your input. 
He walked on hard surfaces ok today, not really bothered, but then he is on 2 Butes a day. Took him into the field to video short trots on each rein for the vet but his gait doesn't look great. If anything I would be thinking in line of muscle/neuro disorders but we had asked vets to run tests for this in the past and they all said it would be pointless as he was not showing the signs...

He'll get his hay soaked and more woodchip arrived today so his little paddock is having less and less of grassy tufts. 

I will run other ideas mentioned on here via the Vet and see what she says.


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## amandap (21 March 2012)

Something I'm just learning about is possible spikes in potassium in grass in growing spurts (Spring/Autumn) you need to feed salt to counteract this at least one/two tablespoons per day for a 500Kg horse on grazing. I know he's off grass atm but I would still feed at least a tablespoon a day and offer pure salt free choice as well.


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## viola (21 March 2012)

Thank you all for your replies once again, we have another appointment with the vet in a week to make some decisions...

Here is a short vid from a few days ago: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUrt5SfB53A 
He went very lame in front again the following day, better again the day after. He changes like that at the moment. 
I've cut out some of the supplements, he is off grass and his hay is soaked.


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## foxy1 (22 March 2012)

viola said:



			If anything I would be thinking in line of muscle/neuro disorders
		
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Having watched your vid I agree with you here; it doesn't look like laminitis at all.


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## ILuvCowparsely (22 March 2012)

*Has he been shod recently ??

 could be nail prick or nail bind
 are you sure its hoof and not further up like fetlock  canon bone or knee??


 do you trust your farrier??? is he good? could be farrier related


could be hoof balance issues
bruised sole
white line disease
canker
ringbone
navicular
contracted heels
puncture wound                              tho all 4 feet is unlikely
thrush
club feet
navicular
sand or grass cracks

 if its non of these I would look further up the leg



 watched the video  seems very stiff through his loins and sacral  . His near hind seems not right when he walks like very stiff gait



could it be back related?? he does look stiff  

 arthritis????

 Myopathy   * lesser form of Azutoria *  


 have you taken bloods????




*





.


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## ILuvCowparsely (22 March 2012)

meesha said:



			But, my guess would be lami or back issues

Only one other thought azortoria "tying up" this can make them very very stiff.

Hope you find the cause soon.
		
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 *Azutoria  they normally cant walk / move and if you do move them the horse is chips

 Myopathy is the lesser form though still serious.

 Cretinase leaks from the muscles leads to muscle tightness and stiff gait.

some horses will gradually buck more as it goes on due to cramps*


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## flintfootfilly (22 March 2012)

I see him dragging his RH toe.  Would be interesting to see him on the other rein too, to see whether he does the same with the LH when it's on the inside of the circle.

OK, he's on a soft surface, but even so he does look to be striding out quite confidently so I think I would be trying to find out about other stuff rather than laminitis ...... and obviously this IS what you are doing.

I'd also agree with having bloods taken, to include muscle enzymes.  With you saying some days he's fine and some he isn't, azoturia/tying up can show in that way, particularly when it isn't a total tying up.

My only other thought is that you can get toe dragging with PSD in the hindlimbs....... but then that wouldn't account for the front limb lameness.

If you do have bloods done, ask for a copy of the results so you can check for yourself whether all levels are within normal limits.  There are quite a few websites that help interpretation of bloods, and you never know, you might spot something that the vet misses.

Sarah


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## amandap (22 March 2012)

foxy1 said:



			Having watched your vid I agree with you here; it doesn't look like laminitis at all.
		
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Me neither, however the diet wont do any harm.  I'm certainly no lameness/gait expert though. If the diet is helping I'd stick with anyway. Laminits can be part of other problems even if very slight.


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## viola (22 March 2012)

Leviathan said:



*Has he been shod recently ??

 could be nail prick or nail bind
 are you sure its hoof and not further up like fetlock  canon bone or knee??


 do you trust your farrier??? is he good? could be farrier related


could be hoof balance issues
bruised sole
white line disease
canker
ringbone
navicular
contracted heels
puncture wound                              tho all 4 feet is unlikely
thrush
club feet
navicular
sand or grass cracks

 if its non of these I would look further up the leg



 watched the video  seems very stiff through his loins and sacral  . His near hind seems not right when he walks like very stiff gait



could it be back related?? he does look stiff  

 arthritis????

 Myopathy   * lesser form of Azutoria *  


 have you taken bloods????




*





.
		
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Hi,
This horse has been barefoot for the last 19 months (rehabbed barefoot after being diagnosed with navicular disease. His navicualar bones are now like new - we re-Xrayed).
He was in the past injected into SI joint. His back is mildly tight on palpation (by EBW). 
No, we don't rule anything out. His hocks X-rays are very good. No swelling on legs whatsoever but of course it could be a number of things.

We have taken bloods before, they didn't show anything remarkable (used for his 5 stage vetting). Will speak to vet about re-doing the test.


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## Amymay (22 March 2012)

My money would be on his back, and possibly his sacroilliac.

Good luck - hope you get to the bottom of it.


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## YasandCrystal (22 March 2012)

It could of course be SI problem recurring? Notoriously hard to diagnose - you need a vet like Sue Dyson with great nerve blocking skills.


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## viola (22 March 2012)

I should have added - none of the previous treatments were successful...SI injections didn't make him move better. The only time when he improved was when he was at Rockley Farm where environment, diet and exercise conditions suited him. However, he was still not fully right in his body, even at his best.


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## viola (22 March 2012)

His back was Xrayed too - nothing of concern there apparently.


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## YasandCrystal (22 March 2012)

viola said:



			I should have added - none of the previous treatments were successful...SI injections didn't make him move better. The only time when he improved was when he was at Rockley Farm where environment, diet and exercise conditions suited him. However, he was still not fully right in his body, even at his best.
		
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My boy was injected in the SI region - that did not improve his SI problem. The only thing that has was a 2 week stay at a brilliant holistic vet who manipulated his sacrum. She is osteopath and acupunture trained also. I don't know where you are in the country, but I can recommend Donna Blinman at Higham near Newmarket.


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## cptrayes (22 March 2012)

viola said:



			Thank you all for your replies once again, we have another appointment with the vet in a week to make some decisions...

Here is a short vid from a few days ago: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUrt5SfB53A

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oh shite, looks like the back/SI and nastily like a friend's Arab cross with neuro issues from the video Wiola    Good luck with the Vet this week, I do hope you get an answer.


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## viola (22 March 2012)

cptrayes said:



			oh shite, looks like the back/SI and nastily like a friend's Arab cross with neuro issues from the video Wiola    Good luck with the Vet this week, I do hope you get an answer.
		
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This is our feeling too  It's not like he is unhappy to move (when he wasn't lame that is, now movement looks uncomfortable to him) - he is a very forward going horse, a little sharp at times, even with the odd way of going behind he was always very eager to move. 
Now, he is definitely in pain


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## viola (22 March 2012)

YasandCrystal said:



			My boy was injected in the SI region - that did not improve his SI problem. The only thing that has was a 2 week stay at a brilliant holistic vet who manipulated his sacrum. She is osteopath and acupunture trained also. I don't know where you are in the country, but I can recommend Donna Blinman at Higham near Newmarket.
		
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Ah that's interesting thank you!


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## JingleTingle (22 March 2012)

Unfortunately I am unable to view the video. However, what you are describing sounds very similar indeed to how my old horse presented when he was still alive, at that time he was about 8 years of age. 

He had never been laminitc, it was the depths of winter, no grass, not particularly good hay and no other feed whatsoever as he was not in work at that time. 

MY very good equine vet was totally flummoxed. No heat, no pulses etc, but like a cat on a hot tin roof as far as actually putting his feet down, to all intents and purposes severe sole bruising on all 4 - but no reaction to any tests.

Many tests and many weeks later we were still no further forward, at the point when we were awaiting the latest results from yet more bloods that had been sent to England, I heard of another horse locally that had suffered the same symptoms. Sadly this horse had been PTS as the owner was not prepared to put in the careful nursing that was required just to keep the poor animal going. Shortly after, a young shetland stallion (also in the local area) died after suffering several weeks of the same symptoms (again the nursing care was not given and he was just turned out to die or recover)

My vet eventually came to the conclusion that they had all suffered some bizzare extreme reaction to the hay they were being fed. It was the only common denominator.  Enquiries confirmed that we had all sourced our winter hay from the same local fields.  The landowner would not co-operate and disclose if the fields had been sprayed at any point or with what - we suspected he feared some sort of court case.

This all started for us in late December, after months of care the horse slowly became sound and by the middle of summer he was out grazing and came back into work when he became totally sound again. 

He lived for many more years and did eventually have problems with both navicular and arthritis - but neither were connected to the former episode.

Not sure if this helps you at all - but just wanted you to know that very occasionally even the vets with all their knowledge and medicine can be stumped (as can human doctors - accurate diagnosis isnt always possible). But if you are prepared to stick with it and just give sensible nursing care  as various symptoms present - you can get through it - and your horse can recover fully.

I really hope things improve for your horse very quickly - it is heartbreaking when you dont feel you are able to help them isnt it?


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## viola (22 March 2012)

Thatnk you grumpyoldmare, we did consider diet of course but this has been going on for over 2 years. This horse had been an different yards and was fed different diet and yet the back end never shown healthy movement. 

I hear what you are saying though and in fact I do believe the recent "issues outbreak" coincides with different hay batch more or less but it's such a good quality forage...really not sure.

I am more inclined to think something happened to him before we bought him (we tried to return him to seller upon purchase when it became clear he is mysteriously unsound but it didn't happen in the end and we nursed him ever since) but we can't figure out what! 
He was bred in Ireland and carries "Stilo" prefix to his name but that's all we know.


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## Bryndu (22 March 2012)

Hi,
Havn't read all the posts but watched the vid....and I think you mentioned your boy got cast?
On the video you can see really clearly he is walking very wide behind....like he has wet his knickers? Does he always walk like this?
I would suggest he has hurt his back....looking at the way he walks....the muscle pulls between his hip and stifle....and also by his continual looking away from the direction of movement...and would suggest this to your vet.
Perhaps a Bowen or some such treatment?
Best of luck
Bryndu


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## viola (22 March 2012)

Bryndu said:



			Hi,
Havn't read all the posts but watched the vid....and I think you mentioned your boy got cast?
On the video you can see really clearly he is walking very wide behind....like he has wet his knickers? Does he always walk like this?
I would suggest he has hurt his back....looking at the way he walks....the muscle pulls between his hip and stifle....and also by his continual looking away from the direction of movement...and would suggest this to your vet.
Perhaps a Bowen or some such treatment?
Best of luck
Bryndu
		
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It was probably someone's else's horse, this one to my knowledge never got cast. However, yes he does walk wide behind which is why the first "guesses" 2 years ago were to do with Si, kissing spines and other back end/back problems, neurological issues etc but none of the  vets who have seen him over the years can figure out what the problem might be. 
I've made a note of this though and adding it to my growing list of questions to the vet when we see her next week :-/


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## Bryndu (22 March 2012)

Oops you are so right ...it was Yazandcystal who had the cast horse....sorry!
I would defo persue the back thing.....possibly have a cintograph...as it will show up hot spots in the body.
Looking at your boy....it seems to me the issue is from behind the saddle rearwards...has he had any type of pelvic injury?
And I would defo have a Bowen person out.....as they won't do any harm.
Good luck
Bryndu


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## meesha (22 March 2012)

Just a thought carrying on from the back thing, when I myself had back issues I went to a recommended chiropractor - he used a scan that took seconds but showed up on the screen the hot points on back and interestingly neck !! he was gobsmacked and couldnt understand why I wasnt suffering migraines - I had whiplash a few years earlier and neck was out from this !!

3 visits and my back and neck were 100% - if you can get hold of someone who can do similar for horse it will show the "hotspots" and therefore where the pain is !


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