# Desperate Help



## cartridge_gal (16 July 2014)

I have a 5 year old ISH whom I have owned since last October. I was told he had been Autumn hunting (pictures to prove) so took him hound exercising this January as the wet weather has postponed hunting and I thought this would be an ideal opportunity to introduce slowly. He went berserk, rearing in the roads, running backwards, just out of control and did not settle the whole time we were out. A very experience rider from the hunt offered to take my horse on a very quiet day a few weeks later and after 1 1/2s  later he brought my horse back to me and said he was too dangerous to continue.  He was doing exactly the same thing with him as he had with me.  Well the hounds have been out a couple of times me with the huntsmen and even at the end of the drive without him seeing them he started going mental in his stable.  In every other way he is the golden horse but with the season approaching, my nerves are getting the better of me and I am contemplating never hunting again or selling him even though that is why I brought him. He is a ID x TB. He just seems to loose the plot when he sees hounds. I really need some help as I love him dearly and the thought of selling him breaks my heart but I am not sure he will ever be able to hunt safely.


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## Attie (16 July 2014)

Oh dear :-( poor you. 
If your youngster did hunt last year- and did so all ok judging by the photos you've seen- and now he is behaving the way he is, one possibility is that he has had a big fright of some sort...not necessarily caused by hounds but while out hunting and he then associates the fright with hounds/ hunting.  How is he riding out in other circumstances? Is he safe/ ok then? Is it just when he hears/ sees the hounds?


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## cartridge_gal (16 July 2014)

He is absolutely safe as houses hacking out.  I have been hound walking for a 3 months and even when he smelt the hound pups walking past the kennel he went berserk. He was okay after a month but to start with was snorting and stamping etc. As soon as he hears and or hears the hounds he looses the plot!!!!!



Attie said:



			Oh dear :-( poor you. 
If your youngster did hunt last year- and did so all ok judging by the photos you've seen- and now he is behaving the way he is, one possibility is that he has had a big fright of some sort...not necessarily caused by hounds but while out hunting and he then associates the fright with hounds/ hunting.  How is he riding out in other circumstances? Is he safe/ ok then? Is it just when he hears/ sees the hounds?
		
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## cptrayes (16 July 2014)

Do the photos you were shown all look like they were from one day? It's not uncommon for them to be fine the first time out, only to behave worse  on day two.

I had a horse a year ago who was a controllable handful the first day and completely and utterly  lethal on day two. So much so that we were out only fifteen minutes before I was on my back on a tarmac road, and shortly after he was himself on his back in the back of the lorry.

It is possible that the photos you've seen have been from the first day(s) that he went out, and that they actually sold him because his behaviour deteriorated, or that they did not even know.

I would not personally hunt your horse if an experienced hunter said he was too dangerous and brought him back. I'm sorry, but I think if I were you I'd sell him and buy another to hunt on if you are set on hunting.


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## AdorableAlice (16 July 2014)

I had one like this years ago.  Frightened me witless.  He was sorted out by my friend who is a whip.  She took the horse cubbing every morning and on the Sunday he went on a pleasure ride.  It took a fortnight and we visited 4 packs.  He finally settled and went on to give me 14 super seasons.  Obviously there wasn't a lot left of him after that amount of work but he soon picked up again.

He was also stabled at kennels and left to get over himself.  He soon realised he was the only one in the yard being a pratt and no amount of bouncing around made any difference.


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## Attie (16 July 2014)

Well the good starting point is that you do have a sane and sensible horse then....underneath! That is really positive and must give you some confidence you can get him over the phobia/ hysteria with hounds.  It's just working out how you can give him regular exposure to them and build his confidence without endangering yourself and others. Is there any way you can stable him at the kennels and maybe take him when clubbing starts and leave him in the lorry with back open....that sort of thing.


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## Attie (16 July 2014)

Ha ha I meant cubbing! Stupid autofil text!


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## cartridge_gal (16 July 2014)

I have sent a text to the lady who exercises the hunt horses to see if that could be a possibility?! Thank you for all your comments and advice.  I just wish he could learn to love it and we could have many happy years of hunting in front of us.  Never known anything like this before!!!!


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## Attie (16 July 2014)

Good luck- hope it all works out!


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## Orangehorse (16 July 2014)

AdorableAlice said:



			I had one like this years ago.  Frightened me witless.  He was sorted out by my friend who is a whip.  She took the horse cubbing every morning and on the Sunday he went on a pleasure ride.  It took a fortnight and we visited 4 packs.  He finally settled and went on to give me 14 super seasons.  Obviously there wasn't a lot left of him after that amount of work but he soon picked up again.

He was also stabled at kennels and left to get over himself.  He soon realised he was the only one in the yard being a pratt and no amount of bouncing around made any difference.
		
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Yes, I knew a horse like this, bred by the owner to hunt from a favourite hunter mare, and was a huge big horse with a not very big rider that was uncontrollable with excitment, tried by several people!  In the end, the huntsman or whipper in took the horse out every day to various packs, it was kill or cure and it did cure him and he carried on hunting for many seasons.


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## Clodagh (16 July 2014)

Take his shoes off and go for a 5 mile hack on the roads the day before going hunting. Then go hunting every day until he is exhausted. Cruel but effective! I really would do that, he needs to be bottomed out. Unless you can massively bribe the huntsman and stable him at the kennels for a fortnight.


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## L&M (16 July 2014)

I bought a 6yr old that had hunted a full season with his previous owners and came with good references, and plenty of photographic evidence.

I Autumn hunted him a few times accompanied by my son on his pony and he was fab - but when I took him without his 'buddy' he completely changed and was downright dangerous. I had no brakes at all, he lost all sense of self preservation, and he kept overtaking the field master which was hugely embarrassing. To top it all, on the third attempt he got himself into such a tizzy he tried to climb out of the lorry leaving the meet. 

After a discussion with his previous owners, it transpired he had only ever hunted with others from the same yard and had never been asked to go independently - it had never occured to me to ask whether he had been hunted on his own, so lesson well learnt. I can only assume it was a form of separation anxiety, but sold him on as didn't feel capable of sorting out the issue.

Good luck with yours - tbh if the horse scares you I would be looking at either getting help or selling on, after all hunting is meant to be fun!


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## Maesfen (16 July 2014)

I have to agree with Clodagh and AA; he needs bottoming and he needs acclimatizing so that in the end he is thoroughly bored with hounds being about; he doesn't need to be thrashed about it, just worked until he's very very tired and I also would give him nothing but old hay or sparse grazing so he doesn't have a lot of fuel in the tank.  Because he's in work and mostly fit it won't do his body or limbs any harm but don't do it if he's completely unfit, that wouldn't be fair.

Good luck, he sounds like he's worth persevering with.


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## AdorableAlice (16 July 2014)

Maesfen said:



			I have to agree with Clodagh and AA; he needs bottoming and he needs acclimatizing so that in the end he is thoroughly bored with hounds being about; he doesn't need to be thrashed about it, just worked until he's very very tired and I also would give him nothing but old hay or sparse grazing so he doesn't have a lot of fuel in the tank.  Because he's in work and mostly fit it won't do his body or limbs any harm but don't do it if he's completely unfit, that wouldn't be fair.

Good luck, he sounds like he's worth persevering with.
		
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My lad was turned out and caught at 4am every morning before being put on the box to trek off to whatever pack we were going with. Feed wise he had a handful of damp bran with salt in it.  He was a Welsh Cob, a big one at 16h and mad as a box of frogs, he was nicknamed The Welsh Dragon due to his tendency to sweat and steam.

He was a super hunter, strong but safe and in 14 years I only hit the deck three times, twice jumped off and once by corning too sharply, skidding through a sprout field and ending up in a pond, hounds hunted me after that episode !


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## Goldenstar (16 July 2014)

Some horses don't hunt they find it too exciting.
My best event horse was bought as a hunter she was lethal truely lethal at the hounds that's why she ended up eventing .
It you love the horse do other things ,if it's a hunter you want sell and buy a hunter .
Having said I have turned a couple of really difficult ones into hunters , to do this you have to be prepared to and have the time to go autumn hunting every day the hounds go out four or five mornings a week and then hunt two or three days a week until they get it .
That's great if you enjoy it and like the challenge not so great if you don't .


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## cptrayes (16 July 2014)

Clodagh said:



			Take his shoes off and go for a 5 mile hack on the roads the day before going hunting. Then go hunting every day until he is exhausted. Cruel but effective! I really would do that, he needs to be bottomed out. Unless you can massively bribe the huntsman and stable him at the kennels for a fortnight.
		
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Ummm, illegal????


OP    PLEASE do not risk leaving this horse in a lorry to keep him calm. That's how mine ended up with me calling the Fire Brigade to get him back the right way up. The repair bill for the lottery was no joke either.


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## Mike007 (17 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Ummm, illegal????
Not sure where you are comming from with the illegal stuff.Too many people make the mistake of getting a horse too fit before hunting. The second mistake is to keep them out too long. A super fit horse will probably kill you at the first draw. A tired horse kept out too long will run on adrenalin and go hyper . so take home early. Go for meets with only a few people out , and have a helper to re box horse. You may need them in a big way.
		
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## Houndman (17 July 2014)

Sounds like your horse just needs to get the idea that hunting is supposed to be hard work rather than something to get worked up over.

As has been said already, only feed hay.  Definitely non-heating hard food if you need anything else.

If your hunt will let you during the summer months, can you follow them whilst they are hacking out with the hounds during the summer - it will just be trotting round and round the roads with no excitement.  You could start off at a slight distance behind them.  It would be a good idea to get him lathered up and worked before you join them exercising so he's not fresh at the start.

I would take your horse on a really long hack to tire him out totally before turning up at the hunt.  Hack him to the hunt if you can, even if it takes you a couple of hours to get there.  Avoid going to the meet - join them later on.

The best way would be to stable or graze him up at the kennels for a while if possible.

I'm not sure about hacking without shoes if the horse is not used to it or you could end up with foot problems.  If absolutely everything else fails, then it could be worth trying, but only as a last resort.

As already said, leaving a horse in a lorry has the opposite effect to calming a horse.


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## redfoxhunter (17 July 2014)

No extra advice to that already given, just wanted to say - keep us updated, and hope all ends well for you.


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## cartridge_gal (17 July 2014)

Thank you all so much for your help and advice. I best get out there and have another go using your advice.  And of course if anybody wants a days hunting on a mental youngster, then let me know haha xx



redfoxhunter said:



			No extra advice to that already given, just wanted to say - keep us updated, and hope all ends well for you.
		
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## cptrayes (17 July 2014)

Mike007 said:





cptrayes said:



			Ummm, illegal????
Not sure where you are comming from with the illegal stuff.Too many people make the mistake of getting a horse too fit before hunting. The second mistake is to keep them out too long. A super fit horse will probably kill you at the first draw. A tired horse kept out too long will run on adrenalin and go hyper . so take home early. Go for meets with only a few people out , and have a helper to re box horse. You may need them in a big way.
		
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The recommendation was to take the shoes of to slow the horse down Mike. It works only if they are sore, and is therefore illegal.
		
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## Orangehorse (17 July 2014)

Hacking to the meet is a good idea, if you can get there along reasonable roads.  We used to hack to a meet with ponies, hunt all day and then hack back.  But the roads were less busy in those days.


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## Ditchjumper2 (17 July 2014)

I agree with Mike007. If you want your horse to be a hunter there are ways and means but it will take time and effort. No feed, not too fit and be prepared to hack to meets, hound rides and stay out long enough but not until he is off his feet. Keep going until it becomes the norm for him. Some may withold water to take the edge off him, I am not saying do that as the gestapo would have me shot BUT  it does work. You will also find the more time you spend on his back the better your relationship will be...if he doesn't hurt you first!!


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## SpringArising (17 July 2014)

Some of the comments on here are awful.

Leave without water? Leave on lorry? Take his shoes off and ride him until he's footsore?


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## amandap (18 July 2014)

SpringArising said:



			Some of the comments on here are awful.

Leave without water? Leave on lorry? Take his shoes off and ride him until he's footsore?
		
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You left out work them until they are knackered and I assume give in! I looked but walked out again yesterday. 
Take shoes of is especially dangerous if the horse is wearing shoes because hooves are compromised. I am reminded of reading someones advice to rasp hooves short to "slow them down"!


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## Orangehorse (18 July 2014)

You don't want to ride them to the point of exhaustion, as that is when injuries happen.  They need to go out often enough that they are a bit tired and it is becoming work rather than mind-blowing excitement.

Apart from the hunter I knew personally, I have also heard of people who have cured strong runaways by simply giving lots of work.  In one case a 35 mile ride - trailered back home and taken out again the next day, and the next until horse realised that it wasn't such a good idea to set off at full speed, and another personal story of a similar horse that was allowed to go as fast as it liked up a hill on Dartmoor, taken back down again and taken up again, and once more, and then taken out the next day until the horse realised that it was necessary to gallop everywhere.


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## SpringArising (18 July 2014)

amandap said:



			You left out work them until they are knackered and I assume give in! I looked but walked out again yesterday. 
Take shoes of is especially dangerous if the horse is wearing shoes because hooves are compromised. I am reminded of reading someones advice to rasp hooves short to "slow them down"!
		
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The general consensus seems to be that anything goes with hunting; at least on this thread anyway. Anyone else on here would be burnt at the stake for doing such things.


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## AdorableAlice (18 July 2014)

There is nothing wrong with giving a horse enough work to make it tractable, safe and pleasant to ride.  Personally I would  not take shoes off or withhold water, but work them I certainly would and have.

Producing a fit for purpose horse is a skill, not just for the horse to perform on the day but to keep performing and stay sound.


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## SpringArising (18 July 2014)

AdorableAlice said:



			There is nothing wrong with giving a horse enough work to make it tractable, safe and pleasant to ride.
		
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Of course there's not, which is why we're not discussing that!


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## Exploding Chestnuts (19 July 2014)

I might ask the hunt if they want him for the season, or send him to someone to sort out, but be careful, no point in breaking his spirit. 
If they can't sort him then he can't be sold as a hunter. 
I am assuming you don't have three hours per day to exercise him.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (19 July 2014)

Orangehorse said:



			You don't want to ride them to the point of exhaustion, as that is when injuries happen.  They need to go out often enough that they are a bit tired and it is becoming work rather than mind-blowing excitement.

Apart from the hunter I knew personally, I have also heard of people who have cured strong runaways by simply giving lots of work.  In one case a 35 mile ride - trailered back home and taken out again the next day, and the next until horse realised that it wasn't such a good idea to set off at full speed, and another personal story of a similar horse that was allowed to go as fast as it liked up a hill on Dartmoor, taken back down again and taken up again, and once more, and then taken out the next day until the horse realised that it was necessary to gallop everywhere.
		
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Problem is that horse is fine under normal conditions, but freaks out when excited.


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## Houndman (19 July 2014)

The trick is to get the horse to think that hunting is hard work and not play.  It just needs work, work, work and more hard work until it realises.

Tire the horse out before you join the hunt.


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## Maesfen (19 July 2014)

This ^^^^

It's akin to pushing a bolter on (as long as it's safe) they tend not to want to 'play' if they're made to work hard IME.


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## AdorableAlice (19 July 2014)

Houndman said:



			The trick is to get the horse to think that hunting is hard work and not play.  It just needs work, work, work and more hard work until it realises.

Tire the horse out before you join the hunt.
		
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Very few horse owners would know how to work a horse hard.  I sat in the lorry on Thursday at an unaff dressage show and listened to people talking about how hard their horse had worked, 10 minutes warm up and 4 1/2 minute test.  Electrolytes to the fore.


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## Goldenstar (20 July 2014)

Houndman said:



			The trick is to get the horse to think that hunting is hard work and not play.  It just needs work, work, work and more hard work until it realises.

Tire the horse out before you join the hunt.
		
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This is the way to do it .
On of MrGS 's best horses was ridden for three hours the day before hunting fed only hay and hacked an hour and half to the meet it took us time it get him to come to hand but he was an ace horse once we did .
But you do need the ability to spend time on this , settling this chap took over my life for most of a season I was sick of the sight of him by march .


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## Ditchjumper2 (20 July 2014)

No one is advocating cruelty on here, merely ways to make a hunter. A lot of horses end up being offered for free to become a hunter as a last resort when their owner s can do nothing with them. A horse who won't let you near it soon becomes more tractable if it needs a drink. Once you can handle them it is a start. As I said before there are ways and means. The problem with most horses today is too much food, too little work and too little discipline. Most will hunt, but it takes time and experience to achieve it......and yes people who hunt do have a different attitude and approach.


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## SpringArising (20 July 2014)

Ditchjumper2 said:



			and yes people who hunt do have a different attitude and approach.
		
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Yes; I've definitely come to realise that.


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## MILLGREENLADY (22 July 2014)

AdorableAlice said:



			Very few horse owners would know how to work a horse hard.  I sat in the lorry on Thursday at an unaff dressage show and listened to people talking about how hard their horse had worked, 10 minutes warm up and 4 1/2 minute test.  Electrolytes to the fore.
		
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this is great totally agree, they need to work on a hunt/race yard to understand how to work a horse hard !


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## honetpot (22 July 2014)

I fed up of seeing people ask what calmer should they give to their horse or pony when really all it needs is an extra hours exercise a day and a lot less food, but of course that takes some effort on the riders part. Most just need long days and little dinners.


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## Maesfen (22 July 2014)

honetpot said:



			I fed up of seeing people ask what calmer should they give to their horse or pony when really all it needs is an extra hours exercise a day and a lot less food, but of course that takes some effort on the riders part. Most just need long days and little dinners.
		
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This should be fixed to every forum in bright lights - but you'd still never get the message across to those who treat their horses like pets instead of the working animals they should be.


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## Moomin1 (22 July 2014)

Some of the comments on this thread have got to be the lowest I have ever read on this forum.  Ashamed at the human race.


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## Houndman (23 July 2014)

Maesfen said:



			This should be fixed to every forum in bright lights - but you'd still never get the message across to those who treat their horses like pets instead of the working animals they should be.
		
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			Some of the comments on this thread have got to be the lowest I have ever read on this forum. Ashamed at the human race.
		
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One contradictory comment after another!  If you go with the attitude that your horse is a pet, and indulge it, you will never cure the problem.  If it becomes dangerous and unmanageable totally you may never correct it and the knackers is the only route.

I have spent time with a working ranch in the USA and they are very adept at addressing such problems.  Spending day after day rounding up cattle soon gets the horse used to work.

Consider if you are going on for example a mountain climbing weekend, yes you will get very excited if you go now and again, but supposing it were every weekend for 5 months, you'd soon loose your initial excitement and settle into a routine.  Like starting a new job, after the first week or so you settle into it.


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## Moomin1 (23 July 2014)

Houndman said:



			One contradictory comment after another!  If you go with the attitude that your horse is a pet, and indulge it, you will never cure the problem.  If it becomes dangerous and unmanageable totally you may never correct it and the knackers is the only route.

I have spent time with a working ranch in the USA and they are very adept at addressing such problems.  Spending day after day rounding up cattle soon gets the horse used to work.

Consider if you are going on for example a mountain climbing weekend, yes you will get very excited if you go now and again, but supposing it were every weekend for 5 months, you'd soon loose your initial excitement and settle into a routine.
		
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Erm, those comments were written by two different people...


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## Houndman (23 July 2014)

One was clearly in response to the previous!  If you want an animal like that, go and buy a rabbit.

Treat a horse like a lap dog and it will always beat you!

The horses on the ranch knew their job.  They were keen and enjoyed their work and were well cared for, but were never overly excitable.

It's the same with these reports of dog attacks.  Many of the dogs had been poorly managed and trained over their lives and did not have instilled into them what is acceptable behaviour and what is not, with disasterous results.

Firm but fair is the way to be.


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## Moomin1 (23 July 2014)

Houndman said:



			One was clearly in response to the previous!

Treat a horse like a lap dog and it will always beat you!
		
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Er, no, my response was not to Maesfen.

My response was to the people who suggest withholding water, removing shoes, and generally thrashing horses into the ground to knacker out before a hunt...

FWIW, I have  never withheld water, removed shoes, or knackered any horse out in order to gain some 'respect' from them.  And I'm so glad the previous owner of my mare didn't either..


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## Houndman (23 July 2014)

Well you weren't specific were you now!!!

Removing shoes is a bad idea as it can lead to injury, and most people did not agree with it ayway.  Witholding water can also lead to injury as muscles cramp up.

We were not avocating totally exhausting a horse before a hunt, merely getting it well worked to "take the edge off it" as they say.

It's not like the classic way to cure a bolter by forcing it to keep going and going until it is truly tired, as after this you generally walk back home and that's it.  If you don't address this it can be very dangerous so it has to be done!

Someone gave me a bolter to see to once.  There is this straight forestry track which goes into an incline for about 2 miles.  We started cantering at the start then sure as predicted, the horse bolted.  I kept it going until the top.  It happened one more time a week later and we did the same.  After this, it never did it again.


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## Fides (23 July 2014)

Houndman said:



			I have spent time with a working ranch in the USA and they are very adept at addressing such problems.  Spending day after day rounding up cattle soon gets the horse used to work.
		
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I have done a ranch holiday too - doesn't make me an expert, and some of the things I witnessed I wouldn't repeat either.

Your posts have a lost of unnecessary exclamation marks which come across as more argumentative than helpful


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## amandap (23 July 2014)

The point is working a horse so hard and not feeding it enough energy to do that hard work appears to be used as a tool to subjugate horses. Making the horse uncomfortable physically by removing shoes, with holding water etc. is from the same  belief - just another way to subjugate the horse.
Just working a disturbed/difficult horse may be effective but is any one doing this looking at why these horses are objecting? It is an attitude of work it hard so it gives in and behaves as far as I can see!

If this was a truism no horses not worked this hard would be compliant which is clearly not the case


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## Happy Hunter (23 July 2014)

Houndman said:



			There is this straight forestry track which goes into an incline for about 2 miles.
		
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I would pay very good money to have one of those near me!  
Currently struggling endlessly to keep the belly off my Hunter come eventer.

I think OP your horse sounds like it may have a bad experience somewhere, as its such a specific reaction to the hounds in particular. 

Same as a fear of heights etc. just constant and boring exposure. In the interests of human, horse and hound safety I agree with others, take a tired horse, for a small period. Increasing the time of 'exposure' according to results.


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## Goldenstar (23 July 2014)

Moomin1 said:



			Er, no, my response was not to Maesfen.

My response was to the people who suggest withholding water, removing shoes, and generally thrashing horses into the ground to knacker out before a hunt...

FWIW, I have  never withheld water, removed shoes, or knackered any horse out in order to gain some 'respect' from them.  And I'm so glad the previous owner of my mare didn't either..
		
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Working a horse three hours in a day is not a unreasonable or unfair thing to do a healthy horse hacking a horse from home to a meet is not unreasonable .
Repeating going hunting until it becomes less exciting is a sensible way of teaching them to pace themselves and that it's not maddenly exciting .
It's got naff all about  respect it's about giving them enough work to learn their job in a safe way .
Horse can take a lot of work in experienced hands they take a lot of work in the wild it's natural for them to move for large parts of the day .
However withholding water from a hunter is in my opinion unethical and nuts as it's very likely to colic after a hard day and sending out a horse with severely sore feet well that just nuts on many levels that's using pain to try to get the behaviour you what that just not on .
But work that's another thing our horse was fit strong and experienced he loved his job but had thoroughly frightened his previous owner when he met a regime that matched his bravery and energy levels he learned to pace himself .
All we where doing was providing him with the work he needed .


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## amandap (23 July 2014)

There is nothing wrong with repeated exposure, it's how it is done and the previous preparation that is important in my view.


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## Houndman (24 July 2014)

FYI I was on a placement, not a holiday at the ranch!

There were some really expert horsemen there with a wealth of knowledge and experience.  A lot of the horse training was holistic and never once did I see anyone doing anything unethical!


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## Fides (24 July 2014)

Houndman said:



			FYI I was on a placement, not a holiday at the ranch!

There were some really expert horsemen there with a wealth of knowledge and experience.  A lot of the horse training was holistic and never once did I see anyone doing anything unethical!
		
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Really? Are all the exclamation marks really needed? If someone has a different opinion to you (or a different experience) shouting louder is not going to change is, though a well reasoned response might. Heavens, what is next? Caps lock?


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## Ditchjumper2 (24 July 2014)

Just for the record I do not withold water from my horses nor wouls I.  I am referring to free horses given as a last resort to turn them into a hunter or else they get shot. A horse in a stable that won't let you near it  will become approachable if it wants to drink...is what i said. You have to be very careful doing this.

I reiterate that the majority need less hard food, more turnout and more work. Hacking to the meet, hacking home , routine and discipline and perserverance are all that is usually required. Often the ones that take the longest to make become the best hunters. i am referring to true hunters not just horses that hunt.


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