# Docking



## Cinnamontoast (29 March 2012)

Am slightly confused (not a hard thing!)

I saw a gorgeous pair of boxers, full siblings from back to back litters (6 or 7 months apart? Not up on seasons etc, just what the owner said). Both dogs, one 11 months, baby of 2 months, are docked. I asked how she managed to get docked boxers (she was dying to talk about them, they were adorable and I'm a sucker for puppies) and she said they're Irish KC registered. 

Does this mean she bought them from Ireland or can you register from here and therefore dock?


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## Vizslak (29 March 2012)

They would have to have come from Ireland I think, you wouldnt get a vet in this country to dock a boxer now I wouldnt think


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## Chestnuttymare (29 March 2012)

She would either have bought them from Ireland or the b1tch might be from here but taken over there to whelp. In england working breeds like springers can be docked if they are to be actually working, not in scotland though, we have a total ban.


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## Cinnamontoast (29 March 2012)

Thanks, chaps. I know about the working dogs caveat but just wondered if you can register here for the Irish KC.


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## Chestnuttymare (29 March 2012)

had it in my head that you were talking about springers, now realise it was because i saw them in your sig.


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## Cinnamontoast (29 March 2012)

chestnuttymare said:



			had it in my head that you were talking about springers, now realise it was because i saw them in your sig.
		
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Yes, my lot are all working type, but only one is _properly_ working bred and docked.


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## NOISYGIRL (30 March 2012)

I've often thought why my springer was docked, she's 4 so was born after the ban (I think) so why would she have been docked ?  We rehomed her but we know where the home she came from and they definitely wouldn't have worked her.  I'd like to know what proof you have to give a vet in order they carry out this procedure, how do you prove they will be worked ?


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## s4sugar (30 March 2012)

You can't prove they will be worked but you can prove the litter is bred to be worked.
Shotgun certificates, club memberships etc. are asked for by the vets that dock.
It is still legal to dock in Ireland.


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## Cinnamontoast (30 March 2012)

NOISYGIRL said:



			I've often thought why my springer was docked, she's 4 so was born after the ban (I think) so why would she have been docked ?  We rehomed her but we know where the home she came from and they definitely wouldn't have worked her.  I'd like to know what proof you have to give a vet in order they carry out this procedure, how do you prove they will be worked ?
		
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You don't need to, tbh.



s4sugar said:



			You can't prove they will be worked but you can prove the litter is bred to be worked.
Shotgun certificates, club memberships etc. are asked for by the vets that dock.
It is still legal to dock in Ireland.
		
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This: you dock the whole litter, some may be worked, some not. You wouldn't want to leave a full tail on a working springer.


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## xxMozlarxx (17 April 2012)

cinnamontoast said:



			Yes, my lot are all working type, but only one is _properly_ working bred and docked.
		
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And you bought a docked puppy?


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## Alec Swan (17 April 2012)

xxMozlarxx said:



			And you bought a docked puppy? 

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For a gun dog breed,  specifically spaniels,  I wouldn't buy a puppy that _wasn't _docked.

Alec.


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## cptrayes (17 April 2012)

The gun dog argument doesn't stack up. Fox hounds aren't docked and they have at least the same risk to their tails as a gun dog. The two drag packs I follow routinely bustle through blackthorn hedges and brush their tails on barbed wire as they go under and over it. 

Docking is mutilation in the name of fashion,  whatever excuses people still find for it.


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## EAST KENT (17 April 2012)

Our local hunt has HAD to dock some hounds due to thorn damage..so yes the arguement certainly does stack up.Far too many breeds have had their appearance totally ruined by this ridiculous law.
  Before too long it`ll be deemed cruel to put shoes on horses!


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## Cinnamontoast (17 April 2012)

xxMozlarxx said:



			And you bought a docked puppy? 

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Ban came in April 2007? My docked one (big liver and white in my sig) is 9 next month. Horrific! Bad me! He's working bred, of course he's docked!

I love how you've tracked a post of mine and resurrected it to have a go: I feel special! 



Alec Swan said:



			For a gun dog breed,  specifically spaniels,  I wouldn't buy a puppy that _wasn't _docked.

Alec.
		
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Me neither, never again, the tails on my youngsters are lethal, already had one spilt quite badly. 



cptrayes said:



			The gun dog argument doesn't stack up. Fox hounds aren't docked and they have at least the same risk to their tails as a gun dog. The two drag packs I follow routinely bustle through blackthorn hedges and brush their tails on barbed wire as they go under and over it. 

Docking is mutilation in the name of fashion,  whatever excuses people still find for it.
		
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In _your_ opinion.

It's not fashion, it's practicality. Who is it on here who has a working springer and his tail has to be wrapped every time he goes out due to it splitting every time? I'll search out my mate's pics of a working dog she knows who has horrific tail injuries. It's not pretty.  Springers, as you can see from my sig, have plumes as opposed to smooth tails. Horrible when they get caught in cover, wrapped in brambles and wrench them free.


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## cptrayes (17 April 2012)

EAST KENT said:



			Our local hunt has HAD to dock some hounds due to thorn damage..so yes the arguement certainly does stack up.Far too many breeds have had their appearance totally ruined by this ridiculous law.
  Before too long it`ll be deemed cruel to put shoes on horses!
		
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They didn't dock the whole pack did they EK? No, they docked the ones with thorn damage - a tiny, tiny proportion of all the hounds in the country.

So is that a reason to mutilate every puppy just in case - even when the closest most of the docked dogs in this country will come to a thorn is the one on the stem of the rose in the bowl on the coffee table?

Dogs don't generally die of tail infections these days, which was why they were docked in the first place. We have antibiotics and we have anaesthetics if they do need the op done as an adult. It's an archaic practice that has long passed its time on any welfare grounds.


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## Dobiegirl (17 April 2012)

Hounds have a totally different tail to Spaniels which are feathered and tend to catch through thorns and can get tangled very easily.


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## Spudlet (17 April 2012)

No they won't, as these days only dogs bred to work can be docked. A good proportion of these will go on to do the job they were bred for, as they do not make good pets without having a job to do.

Foxhounds and spaniels have totally different tail actions - the way a spaniel uses its tail makes it more suceptible to injury as its action is lower and far more frantic. Until you have seen a working spaniel in action, you cannot understand just how busy these little dogs are, or how much harm they can do to themselves if left undocked. No, they hopefully won't die, but they will be in pain and they will be miserable (I've seen that too) which is equally unacceptable to me.


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## cptrayes (17 April 2012)

cinnamontoast said:



			It's not fashion, it's practicality. Who is it on here who has a working springer and his tail has to be wrapped every time he goes out due to it splitting every time? I'll search out my mate's pics of a working dog she knows who has horrific tail injuries. It's not pretty.  Springers, as you can see from my sig, have plumes as opposed to smooth tails. Horrible when they get caught in cover, wrapped in brambles and wrench them free.
		
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In my opinion, yes it's fashion. As you have pointed out, for practicality you can wrap it. 

Or perhaps stop shooting birds half dead out of the sky that have to be retreived by these dogs, but that's a different argument.


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## Spudlet (17 April 2012)

My dog doesn't often work, but he still risks his tail on every walk by diving into hedges! The stuff he has dragged out attached to his tail is very impressive - and uncomfortable for him. He's not docked as he's a rescue dog, and a show type, but he still has the instinct to hunt that all spaniels should have.

We have a non-docked worker at training that has split her tail simply out walking - poor little dog is not happy about it.


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## EAST KENT (17 April 2012)

Blimey CPT what are you on? It is not infection that is the problem with tail/stern injuries ..it is blood loss and the inability to heal properly.However as you say..lets send out working gundogs with tampon holders taped on their tail ends to protect them on a shoot..I vote lumo pink Vetwrap myself.
    Far far better to remove the problem ,same as dewclaws ,before the dog suffers injury.


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## Vizslak (17 April 2012)

cptrayes said:



			In my opinion, yes it's fashion. As you have pointed out, for practicality you can wrap it. 

Or perhaps stop shooting birds half dead out of the sky that have to be retreived by these dogs, but that's a different argument.
		
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Good lord, the fluffy brigade are in full force today!


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## Topaz Tiger (17 April 2012)

I have a norfolk terrier with a docked tail, that was done by the vet. He's always burrowing into undergrowth, brambles etc, but regardless of that I think he looks nicer with a docked tail, I think some breeds do to be honest. 
It hasn't affected him at all, he is the happiest confident little dog you could meet and has no trouble socialising with other dogs. 
I try not to think about the procedure too much TBH, if it's done properly by a vet, can't see it's any worse then doing a lambs tail.....
All these things people get bent out of shape over...... Let's put all that energy into banning factory farming, live transport conditions and improving welfare standards in abattoirs, wouldn't that be a bit more significant that docking tails on dogs that otherwise lead exemplary lives....?


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## Cinnamontoast (17 April 2012)

I must say my dogs are totally pampered but I wish they were dew clawed and docked. Poor Bear was in agony when he ripped off a dew claw


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## CorvusCorax (17 April 2012)

CPTrayes, maybe you were not hanging around the dog forum to see the pics of KirstyHen's Otto with his tail split and bleeding everywhere and you didn't read about all the time, money and heartache that was spent on making him better.

A tiny, quick snip as a baby puppy that will soon fade from memory is worse, is it?
Have you ever had a wound that has not healed? 
Where are all these traumatised docked dogs running around, I certainly haven't seen any....

Have you ever owned a spaniel or worked one? Or am I right in thinking you do not own a  dog?


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## Alec Swan (17 April 2012)

cptrayes,

your arguments on this section,  are of the same value as are yours on the hunting section;  poorly researched,  riddled with inaccuracies,  and mostly reliant upon the skewed thoughts of others who write with such authority,  whilst not actually having a clue what they're on about.

For the rest of you,  a word;  debate with the jolly old cpt is a complete and utter waist of time, even if you do speak with experience. 

Alec.


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## EAST KENT (17 April 2012)

Well having bred dogs for centuries I have docked dogs myself..quelle horreure. My way was to do it quietly when the puppies were suckling off mum,a quick snip a dab of pot permanganate to cauterise ..no one even stopped suckling,never mind squeak..and mum did`nt bother to  look up either.Now,it is my believe that any trauma at all to her babies would have alerted mum..so ,maybe there was none?
   Never has so much rubbish been spouted by the uninformed about this..same a hunting really..but then CPT is anti that as well.Hope she`s vegan.


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## EAST KENT (17 April 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			cptrayes,

your arguments on this section,  are of the same value as are yours on the hunting section;  poorly researched,  riddled with inaccuracies,  and mostly reliant upon the skewed thoughts of others who write with such authority,  whilst not actually having a clue what they're on about.

For the rest of you,  a word;  debate with the jolly old cpt is a complete and utter waist of time, even if you do speak with experience. 

Alec.
		
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You are so right Alec..but sometimes it is just so bloomin` ill informed and irritating   !!


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## Cinnamontoast (17 April 2012)

Tail injuries pics courtesy of a forum friend in Yorkshire:

















Dunno where she got the info for the graph, will ask.


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## SusieT (17 April 2012)

If an individual dog requires docking, then dock it under GA, painlessly. Save the rest of the dogs from the setback to their growth, health, risk of infection as pups and note which bitches produce dogs that can't hack working with full tails. It is a minority who will 'split' their tails, GA and anaelgesia nowadays is safe.


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## Cinnamontoast (17 April 2012)

SusieT said:



			If an individual dog requires docking, then dock it under GA, painlessly. Save the rest of the dogs from the setback to their growth, health, risk of infection as pups and *note* *which* *bitches* *produce* *dogs* that *can't hack working with full tails*. It is a minority who will 'split' their tails, GA and anaelgesia nowadays is safe.
		
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Seriously?!


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## CorvusCorax (17 April 2012)

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the issue with docking adults, that the wound takes much longer to heal, if at all properly, dogs being dogs, which must be distressing for dogs and owners alike. I know of another member on here who had to keep going back and getting more off, stitches all the time, multiple vet trips and medication, and it was a terrible time (not a gundog/working dog).


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## Native Speaker (17 April 2012)

'Prevention is better than a cure' springs to mind.............

And those pics of tail injuries surely speak for themselves, IMO.


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## Alec Swan (17 April 2012)

SusieT said:



			............ Save the rest of the dogs from the setback to their growth, health, risk of infection as pups and note which bitches produce dogs that can't hack working with full tails.........
		
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I've read some rubbish on this forum,  and on this section SusieT,  and whilst I have no wish to be unduly offensive,  YOU have lifted stupidity to a new level. 

Explain to me,  if you will,  just where your level of expertise springs from,  and qualify the points which you've made.  Manage that,  if you can,  and I'll join you in reasoned discussion.

Alec.


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## RutlandH2O (17 April 2012)

EAST KENT said:



			Well having bred dogs for centuries I have docked dogs myself..quelle horreure. My way was to do it quietly when the puppies were suckling off mum,a quick snip a dab of pot permanganate to cauterise ..no one even stopped suckling,never mind squeak..and mum did`nt bother to  look up either.Now,it is my believe that any trauma at all to her babies would have alerted mum..so ,maybe there was none?
   Never has so much rubbish been spouted by the uninformed about this..same a hunting really..but then CPT is anti that as well.Hope she`s vegan.

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Another^^^This


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## SusieT (17 April 2012)

A correctly docked tail (probably left slightly longer than normal) should heal normally as there is no reason for it not to. Unless there is an issue with the dogs healing. 
yes seriously- what's the problem with noting whether there is a herditary component?


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## SusieT (17 April 2012)

Setback to growth-it's well known that stress causes growth setback, at th eleast temporarily for all animals. 
Infection-big risk with a wound. Esepcially young animals. Take fro example the navel..You spray it to prevent infection, one would do the same with a tail but there's no guarantee. Nevermind the 'interesting' instruments people use to dock animals with! 
Calling it stupid just because you've always done it and you prefer to see e.g a rottweiler without a tail is well.... There is no reasonable way to explain amputation without analgesia in this modern day.


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## RutlandH2O (17 April 2012)

SusieT said:



			A correctly docked tail (probably left slightly longer than normal) should heal normally as there is no reason for it not to. Unless there is an issue with the dogs healing. 
yes seriously- what's the problem with noting whether there is a herditary component?
		
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An hereditary component for what?


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## Spudlet (17 April 2012)

CT - that first pic! Poor sod 

It does show something though - I believe that the dogs flank is covered in blood because of the dogs tail movement. Obviously the fact that the dog appears wet will have contributed to some of the spread, but still!


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## Alec Swan (17 April 2012)

SusieT said:



			A correctly docked tail (probably left slightly longer than normal) should heal normally as there is no reason for it not to. Unless there is an issue with the dogs healing. 
yes seriously- what's the problem with noting whether there is a herditary component?
		
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Para 1,  so,  you'd prefer that an adult dog went through the trauma of an op,  than a pup at two days,  would you?  I wouldn't,  because canine welfare actually matters to me,  not the hypothesised drivel which spews from the minds of those who,  how ever well meaning,  are ignorant.

Para 2,  disappear off,  do your Phd in genetics,  and in 20 years time come back and let us have the results of your findings.  I for one will be all ears! 

SusieT,  PM me if you'd prefer,  I promise that I wont reveal the truth,  but.....go on,  admit it,  you're a troll,  aren't you? 

Alec.


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## Laafet (17 April 2012)

Not commenting on the rights and wrongs, but the ignorance of people is just funny. My mum's last spaniel was half docked, not sure of correct term, it was quite long but no where near full length. Amazingly most people thought he had a full tail.


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## kirstyhen (17 April 2012)

Hello  I heard my name and couldn't resist 

Yep, Otto had awful problems with his tail, thankfully solved by moving house (not necessarily action I would advise ) He would return from every walk with a split tail, that he would then chew at, the walls in our house used to look like a butchers shop!

A Hound works in a totally different manor to a Spaniel. Nothing goes through thick cover like a Spaniel (I know, I've had to ferret him out of it when he got caught by his tail) - same reason Labs aren't docked, yes you find them on the Beating line, doing a Spaniels job, but they won't ever (well maybe the odd few) hit thick cover hard whilst wagging their tail furiously like a Spaniel. 

Otto was never docked under anesthetic, you'll do a bloody better job than I did if you can find a Vet that's willing to do it unless there is major infection/damage - my dog had been in repeatedly to the vets for damage to his tail without any of them ever offering amputation as an option. It's fairly major surgery, you're now removing part of an adult's dog fully formed spine! They often then don't remove enough, so the amputation site gets damaged again, until they've taken off the whole thing, which can cause bladder problems and worse. 

As for breeding dogs with tails that can cope with working, yes, in an ideal world that would be perfect and I believe this is now a consideration for Show Spaniels. However there are a lot of other considerations to take into account first - healthy, sound working dogs should be the main criteria.

And yes, lets ban shooting. That's a valid argument. I suppose you've looked at the studies done into how negatively sections of moorland were affected when shooting was stopped on them. The conservation argument for Shooting is a very valid argument. As long as there are 7ft hedges to jump, who really gives a toss though


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## CorvusCorax (17 April 2012)

Hope you didn't mind me taking your name in vain


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## Alec Swan (17 April 2012)

Laafet said:



			Not commenting on the rights and wrongs, but the ignorance of people is just funny. My mum's last spaniel was half docked, not sure of correct term, it was quite long but no where near full length. Amazingly most people thought he had a full tail.
		
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A correctly docked springer should be left with between 1/2 and 3/5ths.  of the tail,  and hopefully with a white tip.  If the tail is a solid colour,  then 1/2,  if not and a white tip can be left,  then longer is acceptable.

Alec.


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## kirstyhen (17 April 2012)

Laafet said:



			Not commenting on the rights and wrongs, but the ignorance of people is just funny. My mum's last spaniel was half docked, not sure of correct term, it was quite long but no where near full length. Amazingly most people thought he had a full tail.
		
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You tend to find that Spaniels bred for Field Trial work are left longer to make the dog look flashier when working.


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## kirstyhen (17 April 2012)

CaveCanem said:



			Hope you didn't mind me taking your name in vain 

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It made me feel loved


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## Vizslak (17 April 2012)

In regards to susiet's point about breeding tails that are more likely to split...certainly in our breed there are different types of tails and its a definate 'type' of tail that splits and causes problems. That said I'm still pro docking and still think they all should be able to have their tails off as newborns....my puppies tails have been left on BTW although I did consider docking them, Floras tail has not ever caused issue in 2 seasons working and of course, you cant show them docked anymore so I left them on. Dewclaws are off though.


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## CorvusCorax (17 April 2012)

We miss yoooou KH!!


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## Cinnamontoast (17 April 2012)

Laafet said:



			Not commenting on the rights and wrongs, but the ignorance of people is just funny. My mum's last spaniel was half docked, not sure of correct term, it was quite long but no where near full length. Amazingly most people thought he had a full tail.
		
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Like these two?






I didn't think they were docked! Clearly, they are. Compared to my youngsters, who have full tails. Working dock, I think it's called. Show dogs were docked much shorter. 

The youngster, full tail:


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## Cinnamontoast (17 April 2012)

kirstyhen said:



			You tend to find that Spaniels bred for Field Trial work are left longer to make the dog look flashier when working.
		
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And the more white the better for visibility? Or is that just a shooting myth?

Nice to hear from you!


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## Alec Swan (17 April 2012)

Vizslak said:



			In regards to susiet's point about breeding tails that are more likely to split...certainly in our breed there are different types of tails and its a definate 'type' of tail that splits and causes problems. That said I'm still pro docking and still think they all should be able to have their tails off as newborns....my puppies tails have been left on BTW although I did consider docking them, Floras tail has not ever caused issue in 2 seasons working and of course, you cant show them docked anymore so I left them on. Dewclaws are off though.
		
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I've seen many HPRs of various breeds which actually looked better with full tails,  than docked.  It seems,  as with the English Pointer,  and our Setters,  to give them a better sense of balance.  It allows them to balance,  too.

Spaniels?  A different matter altogether,  and it isn't a fad,  it's just that for a serious and hard going dog,  a full tail is an encumbrance.  

Alec.


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## Vizslak (17 April 2012)

I still dont think they look better with full tails but they dont look silly with them and as I said only a certain 'type' seems to cause issue, tail set makes a difference too...I'm very much hoping that my pups have tails like their mum and therefore are very unlikely to have issue. Of course, HPR's work and use their tails in a totally different way to a spaniel and as such are less likely to injure anyway. I wouldnt ever want a spaniel with a full tail, the chance of injury is to great.
ETA Setters and pointers were never docked anyway....


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## Laafet (17 April 2012)

CT here he is, sadly Flint is not longer with us, we lost him at Christmas, he was just 2.5 years old with cancer. I thought he looked like he had been docked so was surprised when other people thought he wasn't. I grew up with the short style of docking and prefer this working type.


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## kirstyhen (17 April 2012)

cinnamontoast said:



			And the more white the better for visibility? Or is that just a shooting myth?

Nice to hear from you!
		
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No, they do like a nice flag on a Spaniel. But the Field Trials tend to be docked even longer, around 3/4 left on to make the dog look really flashy as it works.


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## Cinnamontoast (17 April 2012)

Laafet said:



			CT here he is, sadly Flint is not longer with us, we lost him at Christmas, he was just 2.5 years old with cancer.
		
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Heartbreaking, lovely looking lad  I lost one of mine aged 7 from cancer. 

I only knew my parents in law's spaniels before we got ours, very short docked but my first two were left with 3/5ths, I think.


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## Copperpot (17 April 2012)

MY JR isn't docked but I wish he had been. He is forever cutting his tail going through the thick brambles looking for bunnies and has ripped his dew claw off a few times


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## Littlelegs (17 April 2012)

I've never had much to do with docked working dogs, but would I be right in guessing it's similar to removing dew claws if done at a few days old? (dew claws I do have experience with)


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## Cinnamontoast (17 April 2012)

littlelegs said:



			I've never had much to do with docked working dogs, but would I be right in guessing it's similar to removing dew claws if done at a few days old? (dew claws I do have experience with)
		
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Yup. I think it's not so awful and potentially saves a lot of trauma later on.


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## Copperpot (17 April 2012)

Yes it is done at a few days old, usually I believe at the same time as the dew claws.


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## SusieT (18 April 2012)

There is actually evidence to suggest that young pups are MORE sensitive to pain as they have not developed the dampening mechanisms that adults have to decrease painful feedback. And sucking as its done/after its done is not evidence of low stress/pain as it is well known that sucking is the attempt to alleviate pain and stress. 
There is also a theory that pups tail docked early in life are more susceptible to pain later in life, correlated from infacts being circumcised but no substantial evidence for this yet. The important thing is there is no official numbers. Shooting people would be expected to say they want them docked due to injuries, but we all know how reliable joe public is... and animal rights will say don't dock them. We need numbers, so every working injury to tails recorded to quantitively say the majority of dogs need their tails docked..
The docking ban is also being reviewed in 5 years, so seems fair to give it that chance to see the effects.


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## yeeharider (18 April 2012)

I have bred and shown Old English Sheepdogs for the past 25 years, a traditionally docked breed. Without docking the tail is often longer than the dog and I have received many reports of tail injury since the docking ban including loss of 2 relatively young dogs following amputation. As a member of the council for docked breeds we are collecting and correlating information regarding tail injuries to see the effect the docking ban has had. You can still  have your dogs docked legally in Ireland and register/show them under KC rules. I for one will never own an undocked OES


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## Teaselmeg (18 April 2012)

To me there is a big difference between removing dew claws and docking a tail.  Dogs use their tails as part of their communication process with other dogs, removing them reduces their ability to interact safely with other dogs. This is particularly important for dogs that already have problems being 'read' by other dogs ( boxers have flat faces, OES lots of facial hair).   I can see why you would want to dock a spaniel that is worked, but maybe the 1/2 tail dock is a better option ?


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## Littlelegs (18 April 2012)

I must admit I don't like the idea of docking without a local but having never really looked into it when done at days old the impression I get is that its on a similar pain level to dew claws? If so I don't see a problem with it for working dogs. I used to have a lot to do with showing pyreneans, who (unless its changed since) have to have dew claws to show. It's then almost impossible to stop them ripping them off when the dog has a more active life, so I  agree it must be the same with a tail for some breeds of working dog. 
  My only concern is that dodgy back yard breeders might be doing it in an unpleasant way & causing unnecessary pain, but again, without knowing much about docked working dogs I don't know if this is a valid concern.


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## Vizslak (18 April 2012)

Re. dew claws, its my belief they are worse to do than tails, its a more fiddly tricky job and has potential to bleed out more, pups nearly always yelp. The joke of it is you can still do dew claws legally at home...I would NEVER do dew claws at home, always get a vet to do it, tails I was quite happy to do at home back in the day, without a whimper from pups.


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## Littlelegs (18 April 2012)

No, I've never done dew claws myself either. My only dog breeding experience is the pyreneans growing up, who at the time weren't done. Ones which weren't show standard generally had them done at the same time they were spayed/ castrated iirc. Don't know if it was the norm to do that but at the time pyrenean breeders were very picky as to who bred what. Possibly the bigger breeders did the dew claws themselves, my experience was trying to cope with them on adult dogs, so I can understand the logic of docking.


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## Alec Swan (18 April 2012)

SusieT said:



			There is actually evidence to suggest that young pups are MORE sensitive to pain as they have not developed the dampening mechanisms that adults have to decrease painful feedback. 

*Presumably you have this evidence,  available.  Could you post it on here?*

And sucking as its done/after its done is not evidence of low stress/pain as it is well known that sucking is the attempt to alleviate pain and stress. 
There is also a theory that pups tail docked early in life are more susceptible to pain later in life,* correlated from infacts being circumcised* but no substantial evidence for this yet. 

*I take it that you meant "infants",  but as you say,  it's theory only,  and it sounds a trifle scatter brained.  My earliest memory is from the age of 3 years. After that,  about 5 years.  I wonder how many Jewish boys remember their circumcision.  As puppies and their tales,  very few,  I suspect!!*

The important thing is there is no official numbers. Shooting people would be expected to say they want them docked due to injuries, but we all know how reliable joe public is... 

*And we also rely upon vets and photographic evidence,  or do we? *

and animal rights will say don't dock them. 

*When I meet an animal rights wallah,  who speaks with experience,  then I may listen.*

We need numbers, so every working injury to tails recorded to quantitively say the majority of dogs need their tails docked..
The docking ban is also being reviewed in 5 years, so seems fair to give it that chance to see the effects.
		
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Alec.


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## EAST KENT (18 April 2012)

For pure drivel spoken with no actual hands on experience SusieT is on a roll right now. Set back indeed!Well a well known dog man called Robert Killick used to have a large kennel of Welsh Terriers and Mini Schnausers,he went to the trouble of weighing pre and apre docked puppies ..as compared to growth rates expected in friends non docked breeds,There was NO setback. As with anything if a puppy was not truly thriving at 2 days then of course a SENSIBLE breeder would hold back a day or two before the snip. Removing dew claws is more stressful..because the little leg has to be held as you do raising a vein ..puppies resent being held that firmly,it is a natural reaction  to a possible threat. However the earlier it is done the better the outcome visually,and the older ,even by days,the more stress.So,that knocks that ridiculous theory about pain being felt in a younger whelp MORE than in an older one firmly on the head.I sometimes wonder if these idiots have ever even dealt with puppies or touched them they are so damned ill informed.
  Really  SusieT do keep stum ..or as the saying goes "endeavour to put your brain into gear  before speaking" you clearly know absolutely nothing,another Wikipaediac.
   Lambs ,incidently,being much more a sentient creature when docked/ringed do feel pain..mine clearly demonstrated that..which is why on humane grounds the law is an ass.Just that our farming industry is not a soft target for the do-gooders like dog breeders!


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## northernnewfiediva (18 April 2012)

I have been reasonably closely involved with the tail docking ban in Scotland, and would like to say that as a piece of ANIMAL WELFARE legislation it sucks! The inability of breeders and workers of spaniels in particular to PREVENT a welfare issue with a tiny snip at two days is frustrating and, in my opinion, bordering on cruelty!
The drive and action of a working spaniel almost invariably causes damage to the tail. To cure this in an adult dog is difficult and expensive for the owner and stressful and painful for the dog, in may cases the dog ends up with a tiny tail stump, fully docked or with the threat of euthanasia because it cannot be fixed! This is NOT hearsay or ancedotal and there is plenty of published evidence to back it up. The Scottish Government is conducting research through Glasgow vet school, almost concluded now, which we very much hope will show finally what any one with a working spaniel already knows!! If anyone is a resident, it would help the cause if you were to email your MSP, (find their name via google & postcode) and tell them what you think.
I have 000's of horror stories and strong evidence that spaniel people are now going south to buy docked puppies rather than go through the misery of not docking working dogs! This is a short summary of a long story of legislation being implemented on the basis of half truths and smoke & mirrors tactics oby people who purport to know better!


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## CL66 (18 April 2012)

I have 2 GSPs, one docked and one undocked (both born in England after the ban.)  It's a shame as i would prefer the 2nd to be undocked but he comes from working lines, and the breeder has to do the whole litter by 2 days old unless you pick one you want undocked.  I couldn't pick a pup at 2 days old.

The only reason it's a shame is cos i want to show him, i think it's ridiculous that you can legally dock but then can't show, even though you have the certificate from the vet.

Having one with a tail and one without, i'm just lucky the elder one hasn't split his so far, they wag furiously and it bashes against everything.  Hard.


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## s4sugar (18 April 2012)

You can show a legally docked dog - as long as the show doesn't charge an admission fee to the public.


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## CL66 (18 April 2012)

yeah i know but then qualify for shows you cant enter


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## s4sugar (18 April 2012)

Only Crufts has a qualifier and it is a much better show if you attend without a dog.
The important shows are the breed club championships.


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## Curragh (18 April 2012)

I brought my father a springer for his birthday 14 years ago, he was not docked and he became a working dog. Every weekend that poor dogs tail, got ripped, caught up and bled awfully. In the end the poor dog only had to wag his tail, knock it on an table leg and he would yelp and the tail would bleed profusely.  It turned black on the end before the vet decided it was ok to remove the end of his tail, my father managed to persuade the vet to remove half of his tail to prevent it happening again. He has never had a poorly tail since, I'm glad to say! 

When father decided to buy another springer he would only buy one with a docked tail, to avoid what I described above.

On the other hand, I have a doberman and she is docked. She doesn't like going in hedges or any thing prickly, her coat is too fine.  I think in this instance it is unnecessary and purely a fashion statement of such?  

There's my 2 bob's worth any way....


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## Vizslak (18 April 2012)

I have to say I wouldnt want a 'show dog' docked, it would be very frustrating when trying to campaign a dog and not being able to take it to major shows or go to crufts with it. Some of the bigger champ shows have scrubbed admission fees to allow docked dogs to be shown, but not all and its a stupid rule and causes a major issue in breeds that are meant to be dual purpose.


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## amy_b (18 April 2012)

CL66 said:



			The only reason it's a shame is cos i want to show him, i think it's ridiculous that you can legally dock but then can't show, even though you have the certificate from the vet.

Having one with a tail and one without, i'm just lucky the elder one hasn't split his so far, they wag furiously and it bashes against everything.  Hard.
		
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This doesnt make sense to me, as whenever I watch say, crufts, they rave about 'sir poofie' who works AND shows and makes sense to me that working breeds work AND show (im aware why this is almost always impossible to keep the dog nice etc) but to blanket ban working dogs from being shown in this way is bemusing 



s4sugar said:



			You can show a legally docked dog - as long as the show doesn't charge an admission fee to the public.
		
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again. bemusing. 

I must say, I saw this thread earlier and saved it for when I had a cuppa and it didnt let me down!! *chukkles!!*


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## EAST KENT (18 April 2012)

The kennel club (Cruft`s) and all  other championship shows could defeat the act at a stroke by ceasing to charge admission fees to the show,seems they are too greedy to do this though. Working Terrier shows usually now charge car parking and class entry BUT no admission charges to foot soldiers.
   So many breeds now are frankly abhorrent to us died in the wool show breeders..for instance ..dobies,Pem corgis,airdales,norfolks,rotties,spaniels of all sorts now resemble short legged setter crosses. As for old english..well purely on sanitary welfare grounds they should definitely be docked.
  So really the ball does lie in the show society`s lap.


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## Cinnamontoast (18 April 2012)

Abhorrent when left with full tails, you mean?! C'est dommage.


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## Spudlet (18 April 2012)

Agree CT! Docking for working spaniels, absolutely. Docking to look pretty? No way!


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## SusieT (18 April 2012)

East Kent I hate to tell you but an old fellow who had lots of dogs saying it didn't hurt (many sheep farmers claim it doesn't hurt lambs.. whcih you yourself admit it does) is not what one would call worthwhile spouting off about. Trying to suggest that anyone who doesn't support docking has no experience is eh..juvenile? There is something called an open mind and examing things from a perspective other than attractiveness point of view. Thankfully the law is in place to hinder people like you from continueing because that's the way it's always been and it's never hurt you...
Alec-yes but the link is currently down for some reason so I will post it when it returns.


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## s4sugar (18 April 2012)

New Zealand has rescinded the docking ban there after multiple tail injuries.


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## Cinnamontoast (18 April 2012)

Surely it's better from a welfare point of view, as Newfie pointed out earlier, to dock at two days rather than allow persistent injury or worse, for someone to attempt a DIY job? And surely it could only encourage good breeding over here rather than people resorting to buying unseen from Eire as per my OP?


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## Vizslak (18 April 2012)

amy_b said:



			This doesnt make sense to me, as whenever I watch say, crufts, they rave about 'sir poofie' who works AND shows and makes sense to me that working breeds work AND show (im aware why this is almost always impossible to keep the dog nice etc) but to blanket ban working dogs from being shown in this way is bemusing 



again. bemusing. 

I must say, I saw this thread earlier and saved it for when I had a cuppa and it didnt let me down!! *chukkles!!* 

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Tis indeed bemusing. My dog works and shows and I'm proud of that, however if she had her tail off she wouldnt be allowed at crufts....equally if she split her full tail whilst out working she would look a wreck in the ring and they would chuck me out the class for having an injured dog!  Its annoying, thankfully she has never split her tail but 100 % docked dogs should be allowed in the ring....granted its not that many in the grand scheme of total breeds, but there are quite a few breeds that are totally 'fit for function' as the kc calls it and have no breed divide in show/work types, of course they should be allowed to be shown at kc shows with their tails legally docked for work! The KC allows registration of legally docked pups that are destined to work, why shouldnt they be allowed to be shown too!? The other massive issue I have found with this current litter is of course in a truely dual purpose breed you have a mix of puppy owners wanting the pups for different things, some will be shown, some worked, some just family pets. Now you either dock the whole litter or you dont, to match pups to owners you need to make sure everyone is getting the right dog, its no good giving the people that want a worker the chilled out lazy pup and no good giving the people with young kids that want a family pet the most boisterous drivey working type puppy. However, rightly, the working people tend to want tails off if they arent showing too. But you just cant risk taking tails off individual pups at 2 days old hoping that you have picked the right one!! I considered it and then quickly stopped...for example, I'm not doing with this litter but ordinarily I would be picking a pup from the litter to keep, I want it to work and show so therefore at the moment I would have to keep the tail on. I would likely pick my pup based on conformation and personality at around 6 weeks. Now supposing I had taken a punt and docked a bitch pup for my owners that want to work and then on stacking at 5, 6, 7 weeks and making my pick I realise my 'show star' of the litter is the bitch I lopped the tail off at 2 days old...mortified wouldnt cut it!! Stupid fing rule.


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## SusieT (18 April 2012)

How do you think docking will improve good breeding? If someone is stupid enought o buy unseen just because it is missing part of its tail they are not the sort who will be encouraging good breeding anyway.  The point is we disagree on the issue of whether the majority of dogs will get injured tails and the stress it causes a newborn pup.


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## Alec Swan (18 April 2012)

SusieT said:



			.......

Alec-yes but the link is currently down for some reason so I will post it when it returns.
		
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I shall await and read your evidence,  with interest.

Alec.


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## Vizslak (18 April 2012)

SusieT said:



			How do you think docking will improve good breeding? If someone is stupid enought o buy unseen just because it is missing part of its tail they are not the sort who will be encouraging good breeding anyway.  The point is we disagree on the issue of whether the majority of dogs will get injured tails and the stress it causes a newborn pup.
		
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Nobody said it would improve good breeding? Docking has naff all to do with good breeding or bad breeding.
What it has the potential to do is create breed divides in breeds where there currently is none and that would be a real shame.


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## EAST KENT (18 April 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			I shall await and read your evidence,  with interest.

Alec.
		
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   Jeeez now I know what teachers go through.Cannot be bothered to even try to explain any more ,casting grain on stones.


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## SusieT (18 April 2012)

Vizlak CT said it would discourage good breeding to ban docking up there..


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## Cinnamontoast (18 April 2012)

SusieT said:



			Vizlak CT said it would discourage good breeding to ban docking up there..
		
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Up where?! Even I'm confused and I thought I was keeping up!  I said in Eire you can get a pup legally docked. 

My train of thought is that we should not be discouraging good breeders from docking in the UK because some people will want docked dogs and will go elsewhere for them. For sure, my mate is talking about travelling to Ireland for her next Doberman because she wants a docked one.


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## Vizslak (18 April 2012)

eh I'm lost


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## Dobiegirl (18 April 2012)

Having had docked Dobermanns in the past it took a long time to get used to the tails of Diesel and Darcy, but Ive gone from not liking with tails  to actually seeing the benefits. Other dogs seem less aggressive towards them as they are easier to read with wagging tails and Dobermanns have always been fast and agile but to see how they use their tails to balance and turn have given them an edge imo.

I am still undecided though whether I prefer them with or without.


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## Cinnamontoast (18 April 2012)

Vizslak said:



			eh I'm lost
		
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Good, I don't mind being lost if there's someone with me! 

My point was that we should be encouraging good breeding here, health testing, careful selection of parents etc. We shouldn't be making people go abroad to source docked dogs. Strikes me as a bit extreme to go abroad for a docked dog as you can't then show to a high level, but some people are very firm in what they want, even from a pet dog.


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## NOISYGIRL (19 April 2012)

Well my springer bitch has a docked tail similar to the black and white one in COT's example.  We've just had her clipped but normally she has a lovely flag on her tail.

I do think though that she remembers the pain, when I brush her I'll do her body and her tail, but if I go to touch the end of her tail she doesn't like it, she just moves away like as if to say don't but she's not nasty AT ALL, I've often wondered if she remembers it hurting, you may all think I'm stupid.  Not sure if I agree with it or not, but a long spangle tail wagging is VERY painful if it happens to be stood next to you lol


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## Aru (19 April 2012)

At the moment you can still dock tails in Ireland.Fewer vets do it now and its no longer thought in the vet collage over here as its considered a mutilation(along with debarking,ear cropping and declawing) and is grounds for ending up in disciplinary before the veterinary council.But the argument of preventing suffering if the breeder is going to do it themselves has been used i believe.

However in the next few months a bill is going forward making it illegal to dock puppies tails.
As far as im aware there is no grounds being made to leave a gundog exemption clause.
There was a study published by Darke? i think it was ( i think must go hunt it down when i get some spare time) that seemed to suggest that their was no breed predisposition in having injuryed tails and that docking did not make a statistical difference.


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## Orangehorse (19 April 2012)

My terrier is 1 year old and she was docked by a vet when tiny.


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## cptrayes (19 April 2012)

NOISYGIRL said:



			Well my springer bitch has a docked tail similar to the black and white one in COT's example.  We've just had her clipped but normally she has a lovely flag on her tail.

I do think though that she remembers the pain, when I brush her I'll do her body and her tail, but if I go to touch the end of her tail she doesn't like it, she just moves away like as if to say don't but she's not nasty AT ALL, I've often wondered if she remembers it hurting, you may all think I'm stupid.  Not sure if I agree with it or not, but a long spangle tail wagging is VERY painful if it happens to be stood next to you lol
		
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It quite posssibly still hurts. If you talk to amputee humans they will often tell you that they get pain from the bit of leg/arm that is missing. If you touch her tail you are sending messages to her brain from nerves that the brain thinks still travel to the end of a full tail. And that message could easily be pain.


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## Vizslak (19 April 2012)

cptrayes said:



			It quite posssibly still hurts. If you talk to amputee humans they will often tell you that they get pain from the bit of leg/arm that is missing. If you touch her tail you are sending messages to her brain from nerves that the brain thinks still travel to the end of a full tail. And that message could easily be pain.
		
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You m'dear are completely barking. No offence like.


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## Alec Swan (19 April 2012)

cptrayes said:



			It quite posssibly still hurts. If you talk to amputee humans they will often tell you that they get pain from the bit of leg/arm that is missing. If you touch her tail you are sending messages to her brain from nerves that the brain thinks still travel to the end of a full tail. And that message could easily be pain.
		
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I really don't mean to be unkind,  but your posts are becoming ever more entertaining,  in that they're becoming ever more bizarre!!  Humans who are amputees,  certainly,  and on occasions,  _may_ have a triggered memory of when their limb existed.  To suggest that blind and deaf puppies,  of two days,  are likely to remember the time when they had tails,  makes as much sense as having a chat with a Jewish gentleman,  and asking him if he remembers life,  pre-circumcision!  



Vizslak said:



			You m'dear are completely barking. No offence like.
		
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Alec.


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## cptrayes (19 April 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			I really don't mean to be unkind,  but your posts are becoming ever more entertaining,  in that they're becoming ever more bizarre!!  Humans who are amputees,  certainly,  and on occasions,  _may_ have a triggered memory of when their limb existed.  To suggest that blind and deaf puppies,  of two days,  are likely to remember the time when they had tails,  makes as much sense as having a chat with a Jewish gentleman,  and asking him if he remembers life,  pre-circumcision!  

Alec.
		
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Phantom pain is not about remembering that you had a tail or a leg Alex. It's about a brain which is wired to receive signals from the end of a nerve receiving a signal from part way up that nerve which it cannot distinguish from originating further back down the bit which is missing.

A human amputee with phantom pain does not remember his foot, he feels  pain which his brain tells him is actually coming from his foot even if his eyes can see that there is no foot there. I'm surprised you've never read about it, it is well documented.

But of course phantom pain would be too horrible to contemplate in a docked dog, wouldn't it? I'm not surprised you don't even want to consider it, even though someone describes exactly the reaction that would be expected from her own dog.


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## Cinnamontoast (19 April 2012)

cptrayes said:



			A human amputee with phantom pain does not remember his foot, he feels  pain which his brain tells him is actually coming from his foot even if his eyes can see that there is no foot there. I'm surprised you've never read about it, it is well documented.
		
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I think you are trying too hard to anthropomorphize. 

A human amputee tends to have 'remembered pain' from an extremity which no longer exists because humans can reason this out and I imagine the majority of anecdotal evidence is sourced from adults who've undergone a trauma as opposed to tiny babies who lost a limb and then discussed it later. If the nerve is no longer there, there can be no real pain. 

Cptrayes, your posts are fun: keep them coming!


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## Vizslak (19 April 2012)

But the CNS of puppies is not fully developed at 2 days old


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## Blitzen (19 April 2012)

I just twiddled the end of my docked GWPs tail, and he looked at me like I was crackers...  which of course I am, as I am checking to see whether his tail "still hurts". Oh dear!
If you read some research and case studies surrounding human phantom limb pain/sensation, you will find that in many cases it IS the memory of having the (example) foot, and the associated pain that went with the condition that caused the need for amputation. Hence why the incidence of phantom limb sensation is much lower in cases where it was emergency amputation due to an accident. Regrding long term conditions, the use of nerve blocks prior to surgery have been used with quite some success, as the brains last "memory" of the limb is that it was pain free. You also have to consider the psychological implications of human phantom limb sensation. 
At 2 days old, is a puppy likely to remember having his tail? Or any sensation that went with it? Errm, nope.


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## Blitzen (19 April 2012)

Cross posted, cinnamontoast!


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## EAST KENT (19 April 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			I really don't mean to be unkind,  but your posts are becoming ever more entertaining,  in that they're becoming ever more bizarre!!  Humans who are amputees,  certainly,  and on occasions,  _may_ have a triggered memory of when their limb existed.  To suggest that blind and deaf puppies,  of two days,  are likely to remember the time when they had tails,  makes as much sense as having a chat with a Jewish gentleman,  and asking him if he remembers life,  pre-circumcision!  





Alec.
		
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   So so funny!!


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## SusieT (19 April 2012)

'Tail docking: the iong and the short
of it' is the title of the article, in the irish veterinary journal vol 60 no. 12.

to also clarify, it is not that the pup 'remembers' or the infant 'remembers' their pain, it is that the pain sensitises the pathways and causes increased sensation to pain later in life (or something like that!)


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## EAST KENT (19 April 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Phantom pain is not about remembering that you had a tail or a leg Alex. It's about a brain which is wired to receive signals from the end of a nerve receiving a signal from part way up that nerve which it cannot distinguish from originating further back down the bit which is missing.

A human amputee with phantom pain does not remember his foot, he feels  pain which his brain tells him is actually coming from his foot even if his eyes can see that there is no foot there. I'm surprised you've never read about it, it is well documented.

But of course phantom pain would be too horrible to contemplate in a docked dog, wouldn't it? I'm not surprised you don't even want to consider it, even though someone describes exactly the reaction that would be expected from her own dog.
		
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  SO..big question..do Jewish gentlemen remember pre circumcision?? Are their legs sometimes crossed? Completely barking..but just so entertaining


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## Blitzen (19 April 2012)

Yes, but there was no pain in the end of the tail that is missing? So why would there be a sensation that was never there in the first place?? The majority of phantom limb sensation in humans stems from the limb itself, not the site of amputation!


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## SusieT (19 April 2012)

There is a study ongoing in scotland to settle the arguement, which will be very interesting. Comparing injury rates in docked and undocked dogs-so should beo ut in the next year or two.


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## EAST KENT (19 April 2012)

Being serious for just a minute..my dogs hate having their tails trimmed for shows..the nearer the end the more they wriggle..in an undocked breed.


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## Blitzen (19 April 2012)

For example, if a person were suffering phantom limb sensation after losing their foot due to injury/disease to said foot, but the amputation site required was above ankle, then they would feel the pain/itch/pins and needles in the offending missing FOOT not on their leg where the op took place.


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## Vizslak (19 April 2012)

in human phantom limb pain, a common way of curing or lessening the problem is CBT and mirror training, basically to retrain the brain to imagine a healthy limb where it is imagining a painful one. This has no relation to tail docking in dogs whatsoever and is a totally invalid point cptrayes.


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## Blitzen (19 April 2012)

I'm giving up, my phone is too slow to keep up with the newest posts. Mine are looking quite random!


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## Alec Swan (19 April 2012)

NOISYGIRL said:



			..........

I do think though that she remembers the pain, when I brush her I'll do her body and her tail, but if I go to touch the end of her tail she doesn't like it, she just moves away like as if to say don't but she's not nasty AT ALL, .......
		
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I've had many dogs which have tolerated any form of physical contact,  with the exception of their tail,  and that's both docked and undocked.  A dog with a docked tail,  who doesn't like that tail touched,  would be just as likely to dislike it,  with a full tail.



cptrayes said:



			........ I'm not surprised you don't even want to consider it, even though someone describes exactly the reaction that would be expected from her own dog.
		
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See above....... and there is still no clear evidence that dogs which are docked,  suffer any lasting ill effects.  I assure you of this,  if there was any evidence,  then I'd be standing beside you,  and I'd champion your cause.

You have to understand that many of those on here,  and elsewhere too,  who support the docking of certain breeds,  do so because they have the welfare of the dog at heart.  

Not that *you* have,  I'll accept,  but to suggest that the docking of gun dog's tails is a human vanity,  is both insulting and wrong.

Alec.


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## Spudlet (19 April 2012)

Henry has a full tail, but if you gently take hold of the end, he either twitches it out of your hand, or turns and nibbles your fingers gently until you let go. I think it's a ticklish spot. He'll allow me to hold it because I'm the boss and I say so, but I'd think he'd politely prefer me not to.


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## Alec Swan (19 April 2012)

Dobiegirl said:



			Having had docked Dobermanns in the past it took a long time to get used to the tails of Diesel and Darcy, but Ive gone from not liking with tails  to actually seeing the benefits. Other dogs seem less aggressive towards them as they are easier to read with wagging tails and Dobermanns have always been fast and agile but to see how they use their tails to balance and turn have given them an edge imo.

I am still undecided though whether I prefer them with or without.

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That's a very good post,  with an excellent and honest final sentence.  I'm not too sure,  either!!

Those dogs with _legs,_ and in the case of yours,  we're talking tall dogs,  need a tail for balance.  They were originally docked (so I may be wrongly informed),  to prevent a human assailant having anything to grab hold of,  and for the same reason they have very short coats,  and mostly,  very tight skin.  They are also,  it seems to me,  to be almost bird like,  in that it takes practice to translate the expression.  To the uninitiated they are cold and expressionless.  For me that's part of the attraction.

I actually think that both the Doberman and the Rottweiler,  look better,  and function better too,  with long tails.  

Alec.


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## Littlelegs (19 April 2012)

Very interesting post. On the subject of puppies remembering their tails does this mean castrated male animals remember their bits? Are their hordes of dogs & horses bemoaning their missing balls? And dogs pining for their dew claws? I think not somehow.
 As for tails, ime other dogs do struggle with the body language of some docked breeds in my experience.
 And my undocked dobiex allows his tail to be touched but clearly dislikes it. Unlike my friends docked rottie, who prefers it as an itching spot.


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## Cinnamontoast (19 April 2012)

God knows how naturally bob tailed dogs cope! 

I think littlelegs makes a hugely valid point about the missing appendages, yet many people advocate run of the mill neutering despite there not being a valid medical reason sometimes. I fail to see how removing the testes is fine while docking is not. Docking is unlikely to change behaviour, neutering can do so.

I'm discounting the unwanted puppies argument as I imagine the vast majority of owners are careful enough not to allow their dog to impregnate passing females.


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## Dobiegirl (19 April 2012)

[Q
I'm discounting the unwanted puppies argument as I imagine the vast majority of owners are careful enough not to allow their dog to impregnate passing females.[/QUOTE]

I hope that was tongue in cheek, when I had my first Dobe who was an entire male (he had wobblers) I could have made a fortune studding him as he was so well bred, needless to say I didnt.

One thing that has puzzled me is a castrated male human would have a very high falsetto singing voice but it dosnt seem to affect dogs, all my male castrated dogs have had very deep barks. Can anyone enlighten me please. I have my own theory but would welcome other ideas.


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## Littlelegs (19 April 2012)

That's a very interesting thought dobie girl, & one that's never crossed my mind. From what I've heard castrating human males was for church choirs, so maybe it is just a myth it stopped their voice breaking. 
 My best guess is that it has a different effect on dog hormone levels but not sure how. Perhaps because a lot of male dogs are castrated at a further stage of maturity than a choir boy would be.


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## SusieT (20 April 2012)

probably because neutering uses appropriate pain killers..


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## CAYLA (20 April 2012)

neutering does have benefits and acts as a very good preventitive if done early enough, and it what way does it change a dog? im still not joining the docking debate mind you


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## Cinnamontoast (20 April 2012)

SusieT said:



			probably because neutering uses appropriate pain killers..
		
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Then why I have spoken with so many people who weren't given pain killers for their (male) dog after neutering?


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## Cinnamontoast (20 April 2012)

CAYLA said:



			neutering does have benefits and acts as a very good preventitive if done early enough, and it what way does it change a dog? im still not joining the docking debate mind you

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You know my thoughts on 'automatic' neutering. I don't agree unless the dog is after females on a constant but as Brig proves, he doesn't even know what girls are, nor did Jake. Zak's never off lead, Bear is too fast to even notice girls, I have to recall him to meet other dogs! 

If neutering is to prevent suffering ie the torment of running after in season females, then surely docking is similar? Done early to prevent suffering down the line? In terms of working dogs or dogs likely to injure their tails, I mean.


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## CAYLA (20 April 2012)

Oh indeed i agree with the docking early for prevention, same with neutering. But the neutering benefits are far more than just preventing impregnating bitches, but again i aint getting into this docking debate im sure those who hunt know the benefits, infact not sure how i ended here, bored from night shift now bed!


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## SusieT (20 April 2012)

'Then why I have spoken with so many people who weren't given pain killers for their (male) dog after neutering? '

Because there was pain relief given before the op and possibly during/after at the vets to prevent pain mechanisms swinging into action, and the sensation increasing so basically the pain never gets started so subsides much quicker, pain relief lasts 1-2days so by the time it's wearing off the dog is not painful anymore in many cases-that saying I personally prefer painkillers to be provided for 3 days post surgery also but there's not evidence for it being any better.
The crucial comparison is that the dog is anaesthetised for the procedure and appropriate sterile conditions are maintained.


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## Copperpot (21 April 2012)

I have a docked dobie and she has no probs with her tail being touched. She also has her dew claws removed too. 

She manages to run and balance just fine. She is forever galloping about like a horse jumping whatever she can. 

Alec you are right about the bird like thing. She is very expressionless towards strangers. Just stares at them with her "poker" face


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## CorvusCorax (21 April 2012)

Is now a bad time to admit I have always found cropped and docked dobes very striking to look at


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## Dobiegirl (21 April 2012)

CaveCanem said:



			Is now a bad time to admit I have always found cropped and docked dobes very striking to look at   

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Funnily I agree with you but having owned both I can and do see the advantages of a tail.

I still dont know which I prefer docked or undocked, it often depends if I get hit with a wagging tail and boy does that hurt

Without a tail they are instantly recognised, with a tail some numpty asked me was Diesel a Great Dane.


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## Copperpot (21 April 2012)

I prefer docked dobie's but that may be because it's what I'm used to?


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## Dobiegirl (21 April 2012)

Copperpot said:



			I prefer docked dobie's but that may be because it's what I'm used to?
		
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Its taken a lot of getting used to for me as well, still undecided


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## Littlelegs (21 April 2012)

From a purely selfish viewpoint I do think both rotties & dobes look nicer docked. But unless their job made it vital I don't prefer it. I've not looked into it enough to know the physical benefits to the dog with a full tail, but I know from experience a lot of other dogs find it extremely hard to read body language from them.


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## Dobiegirl (21 April 2012)

Littlelegs I did say this earlier, my previous Dobes(docked) often had dogs acting aggressively towards them purely because they couldnt read their body language.

My current 2 have tails and have had no such experience as its difficult to miss their long waggy tails.


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## RutlandH2O (21 April 2012)

CaveCanem said:



			Is now a bad time to admit I have always found cropped and docked dobes very striking to look at   

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^^^Yes!


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## RutlandH2O (21 April 2012)

What I meant to say was, yes, I find them stunning docked and cropped, as well.


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## Cinnamontoast (21 April 2012)

SusieT said:



			Because there was pain relief given before the op and possibly during/after at the vets to prevent pain mechanisms swinging into action, and the sensation increasing so basically the pain never gets started so subsides much quicker, pain relief lasts 1-2days so by the time it's wearing off the dog is not painful anymore in many cases.
		
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Man, what are you _on_?! I'd like some! I must tell this to the two vets at the yard later! Brilliant, keep it coming!


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## Littlelegs (21 April 2012)

Dobiegirl- it wasn't at all aimed at your post was just sticking my two pence worth in. And I agree on being smacked with a tail, mines a cross but has the full dobie tail & well mannered as he is its lethal! You could leave a roast chicken on the coffee table without him touching it but his tail can clear it in seconds!


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## Aru (21 April 2012)

cinnamontoast said:



			Man, what are you _on_?! I'd like some! I must tell this to the two vets at the yard later! Brilliant, keep it coming!
		
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Shes not on anything. Its called multimodal pain control and is one of the principles of anesthesia. 
If you block the pain early,you have less pain later is the basic principle. Its as if your body never felt and so never truly responded to the pain as the drugs block different parts of the pain pathway.
Fascinating stuff the analgesics and pain control theres hundreds of papers out there... 

Vets do a quite a lot of study in anesthesia and pain management  

But as with all things different dogs are different and in some cases some need more pain control then other and some need less.


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## Dobiegirl (21 April 2012)

Aru said:



			Shes not on anything. Its called multimodal pain control and is one of the principles of anesthesia. 
If you block the pain early,you have less pain later is the basic principle. Its as if your body never felt and so never truly responded to the pain as the drugs block different parts of the pain pathway.
Fascinating stuff the analgesics and pain control theres hundreds of papers out there... 

Vets do a quite a lot of study in anesthesia and pain management  

But as with all things different dogs are different and in some cases some need more pain control then other and some need less.
		
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I can see the logic of this, back in the day when I had pains if I took pain killers straight away it knocked it straight on the head. If I waited until it got really bad it took forever to get it under control.


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## Aru (21 April 2012)

Dobiegirl said:



			I can see the logic of this, back in the day when I had pains if I took pain killers straight away it knocked it straight on the head. If I waited until it got really bad it took forever to get it under control.
		
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Ya its really cool isnt it.

Its also done to prevent "wind up" which is a chronic pain that can happen after operations where pain becomes hypersensitive and persists even after the initial stimulus is gone.
Its not documented in animals as they cannot tell us where they are sore exactly like people can but its recognized though uncommon (thankfully) in people and the same principles apply to animals when it comes to certain types of pain control. 
So analgesics/painkillers are given ideally before the painful stimulus and dogs are also often pre-medicated with drugs that have pain control properties before they are even put under.

Can you tell I've being doing a lot of Anesthesia study coming up to exams this year


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## Dobiegirl (21 April 2012)

Aru you have studied and retained it very well.


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## Dobiegirl (21 April 2012)

littlelegs said:



			Dobiegirl- it wasn't at all aimed at your post was just sticking my two pence worth in. And I agree on being smacked with a tail, mines a cross but has the full dobie tail & well mannered as he is its lethal! You could leave a roast chicken on the coffee table without him touching it but his tail can clear it in seconds!
		
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Littlelegs I wasnt having a go at you, I was agreeing with you, I was trying to point you to the post where I said the same thing earlier.

Hope you didnt take offence as none was intended.


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## Cinnamontoast (21 April 2012)

Aru said:



			Shes not on anything. Its called multimodal pain control and is one of the principles of anesthesia. 
If you block the pain early,you have less pain later is the basic principle. Its as if your body never felt and so never truly responded to the pain as the drugs block different parts of the pain pathway.
Fascinating stuff the analgesics and pain control theres hundreds of papers out there... 

Vets do a quite a lot of study in anesthesia and pain management  

But as with all things different dogs are different and in some cases some need more pain control then other and some need less.
		
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Anyone checked with the dog? I'm aware of the multimodal pain control and I'd agree wholeheartedly-with human subjects who can verbalise their pain, but not with an animal.


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## SusieT (21 April 2012)

'Anyone checked with the dog? I'm aware of the multimodal pain control and I'd agree wholeheartedly-with human subjects who can verbalise their pain, but not with an animal. ' I don't understand what you mean here? You don't believe in pain control in animals because they can't verbalise it in any way other than whining/howling? I really don't understand what your last post meant?


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## Alec Swan (21 April 2012)

SusieT,

those with the ability,  will recognise a dog's demeanour,  and it's sense of well being,  without a spoken word.

Alec.


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## Aru (21 April 2012)

cinnamontoast said:



			Anyone checked with the dog? I'm aware of the multimodal pain control and I'd agree wholeheartedly-with human subjects who can verbalise their pain, but not with an animal.
		
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Checking with the dog......of course they do thats why I said not all dogs are the same.

But as it happens yes there are official tested ways of working out the pain levels in dogs post surgery.....Glasgow pain scale is the officially recognised one that we use. Its not just vocalisations its the demeanor,the stance,the way they observe their wounds, if they guard them,if the heart rate is high.Theres a load of indicators.....but your right there are cue signs that people familiar with the dog will know to tell the level of comfort.But If they are asked how they will just say they just know but its often they are familiar with normal to that dog and can tell its abnormal.

Anesthesia is a science.Veterinary anesthesia is a speciality area of vet medicine....but the studies etc are not just based on looking and observations they are based on regulated repeatable scientific method test's like the glasgow pain scale.If it cannot be supported with scientific methods then it wouldn't have got published so widely.Its subjective to a point but pain is like that. Hell peoples perceptions of pain can vary hugely but we dont pretend that they aren't feeling pain.
Theres also the issue of chronic and acute pain. Chronic is much more difficult to assess in people let along dogs

Yes dogs are difficult to tell pain in compared to people.Stoic dogs are amazing they tolerate everything bravely.But their heart rates are still high when in acute pain.They do show signs you just have to know where and how to look. One of the sweetest dogs I know was in because of a osteosarcoma.She was in intense pain whenever anyone touched her leg.Its a painful condition in general. But she tolerated it without a noise. Just a slight drop of the head and a heart rate surge up when her leg was moved. She didn't screech,she didnt cry.When she rolled on her leg after the biopsies she had to have been sore but she hid it because that was the type of dog she was.....but her heart was going so fast. She was topped up with more analgesia inspite of splash blocks and multimodal. But it wasn't easy to read her just by looking.

Every dog is different but they all do feel pain. Some hide it well,some have high thresholds and others are really sore after the most minor procedures. 

But multimodal pain control is shown to help. Having watched dogs in different practices recover with different systems and without I have no doubts that multiple works well for a lot of animals. Some may still need more post op but in general it does make a difference.The recoveries are smoother the post op period shows much less misery than those without.


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## Aru (21 April 2012)

Vizslak said:



			But the CNS of puppies is not fully developed at 2 days old
		
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This is another thing I dont understand.
Why do people think that the Central Nervous System in puppies isn't developed?
Do people think that the CNS of human babies isn't developed at 2 days old?

Is it because they dont have the ability to control their bodies or what is it that has people so convinced?

Genuinely curious about this one......esp as its the opposite to what I was taught and id like to hear the other side of the argument.....


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## SusieT (21 April 2012)

Alec obviously, hence I said 'verbalise' in reply to CT-can you interpret any clearer what CT was saying? I am not clear what she was trying to get at


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## Littlelegs (21 April 2012)

Dobiegirl- course i'm not offended, I thought you'd taken my post the wrong way that's all, I was agreeing with you too. Shows how easy it is to get crossed wires on line lol.


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## Dobiegirl (21 April 2012)

littlelegs said:



			Dobiegirl- course i'm not offended, I thought you'd taken my post the wrong way that's all, I was agreeing with you too. Shows how easy it is to get crossed wires on line lol.
		
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Absolutely.


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## ChesnutsRoasting (21 April 2012)

Aru said:



			Checking with the dog......of course they do thats why I said not all dogs are the same.

But as it happens yes there are official tested ways of working out the pain levels in dogs post surgery.....Glasgow pain scale is the officially recognised one that we use. Its not just vocalisations its the demeanor,the stance,the way they observe their wounds, if they guard them,if the heart rate is high.Theres a load of indicators.....but your right there are cue signs that people familiar with the dog will know to tell the level of comfort.But If they are asked how they will just say they just know but its often they are familiar with normal to that dog and can tell its abnormal.

Anesthesia is a science.Veterinary anesthesia is a speciality area of vet medicine....but the studies etc are not just based on looking and observations they are based on regulated repeatable scientific method test's like the glasgow pain scale.If it cannot be supported with scientific methods then it wouldn't have got published so widely.Its subjective to a point but pain is like that. Hell peoples perceptions of pain can vary hugely but we dont pretend that they aren't feeling pain.
Theres also the issue of chronic and acute pain. Chronic is much more difficult to assess in people let along dogs

Yes dogs are difficult to tell pain in compared to people.Stoic dogs are amazing they tolerate everything bravely.But their heart rates are still high when in acute pain.They do show signs you just have to know where and how to look. One of the sweetest dogs I know was in because of a osteosarcoma.She was in intense pain whenever anyone touched her leg.Its a painful condition in general. But she tolerated it without a noise. Just a slight drop of the head and a heart rate surge up when her leg was moved. She didn't screech,she didnt cry.When she rolled on her leg after the biopsies she had to have been sore but she hid it because that was the type of dog she was.....but her heart was going so fast. She was topped up with more analgesia inspite of splash blocks and multimodal. But it wasn't easy to read her just by looking.

Every dog is different but they all do feel pain. Some hide it well,some have high thresholds and others are really sore after the most minor procedures. 

But multimodal pain control is shown to help. Having watched dogs in different practices recover with different systems and without I have no doubts that multiple works well for a lot of animals. Some may still need more post op but in general it does make a difference.The recoveries are smoother the post op period shows much less misery than those without.
		
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All I know is I had strong painkillers before my appendectomy and was still in immense pain post-op and yet managed to give birth successfully with the occasional whiff of gas and air.


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## EAST KENT (21 April 2012)

Aru said:



			This is another thing I dont understand.
Why do people think that the Central Nervous System in puppies isn't developed?
Do people think that the CNS of human babies isn't developed at 2 days old?

Is it because they dont have the ability to control their bodies or what is it that has people so convinced?

Genuinely curious about this one......esp as its the opposite to what I was taught and id like to hear the other side of the argument.....
		
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 Based purely on practical experience Aru..I would take the non reaction of a suckling puppy or it`s mother to quietly docking and cauterising in the nest as an indication of non pain. Also I doubt the same non reaction would occur if the puppy was ,say,four weeks old. If a puppy is picked up by it`s mother,or trodden on ,however,it will scream at whatever age.Lambs that are rung however,being much more with it at two days DO exhibit pain,and I hated doing the boys especially;I actually find the way pain is ok in farm animals,but not in dog breeding ,where I believe there is little or none,quite hypocritical. It is so much easier to hit a soft target is`nt it?
  I do hope some of your studies will include a period of working in a breeding kennel so you get the chance to see some of these reactions for yourself,it  is fascinating and often the opposite to what you may presume. I used to be extremely anti docking/dew claw removal..until I had practical experience ..firstly under tuition(!) then on my own.The only dew claw that ever got a little infected was done at a vets!


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## Lanky Loll (21 April 2012)

Have been reading this with interest having recently collected a DOCKED working cocker puppy  
Took her to the vets this week and had an interesting conversation about docking vs not in spaniel breeds - vet was glad to see Thea is docked, albeit only 3/4 so left quite long and as the vet described it "they've just removed the whippy bit".  Compared to the 2yo spaniel that she's got coming back in next week to have it's tail amputated - owner had been adamant they didn't want a docked dog and unfortunately the dog has suffered because of it, repeated splits now resulting in amputation


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## Cinnamontoast (21 April 2012)

SusieT said:



			Alec obviously, hence I said 'verbalise' in reply to CT-can you interpret any clearer what CT was saying? I am not clear what she was trying to get at
		
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I was attempting to say that I don't believe it's the right method to use with a dog. It's fine with a human who can tell the doctor he or she is in pain if the painkillers are not forthcoming. 

Some dogs, as mentioned by Aru, are very stoical and would not show visible signs of pain although as Alec says, you know your dog and you can see if it's in pain usually.

 Big dog has opened several layers on his belly, ripped off a pad etc and didn't ever whinge. I was glad he was given pain relief.

 I think it a little unfair to withold painkillers when dealing with animals. Possibly I'm too soppy.


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## ChesnutsRoasting (21 April 2012)

cinnamontoast said:



			I was attempting to say that I don't believe it's the right method to use with a dog. It's fine with a human who can tell the doctor he or she is in pain if the painkillers are not forthcoming. 

Some dogs, as mentioned by Aru, are very stoical and would not show visible signs of pain although as Alec says, you know your dog and you can see if it's in pain usually.

 Big dog has opened several layers on his belly, ripped off a pad etc and didn't ever whinge. I was glad he was given pain relief.

 I think it a little unfair to withold painkillers when dealing with animals. Possibly I'm too soppy. 

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I have to say, I too, would prefer to err on the side of caution when it comes to pain management in my animals. As long as the correct dose is administered then no harm, apart from, that is, to your bank balance!


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## SusieT (21 April 2012)

The point is painkillers aren't being witheld, the pain is being managed prior to the dog even waking up and by the time it wears off the dog is its happy self. How else do you judge when to stop the painkillers? How long do you keep giving painkillers for? Until the stitches are out? For a month? Bearing in mind painkillers have side effects so in general you are trying to give for as short a time as the pain.


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## Alec Swan (21 April 2012)

Aru said:



			This is another thing I dont understand.
Why do people think that the Central Nervous System in puppies isn't developed?
Do people think that the CNS of human babies isn't developed at 2 days old?

Is it because they dont have the ability to control their bodies or what is it that has people so convinced?

Genuinely curious about this one......esp as its the opposite to what I was taught and id like to hear the other side of the argument.....
		
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As none of us seem to be scientists,  much of this,  on our parts,  is conjecture,  but so to continue..........  I'm not too sure about the argument regarding the CNS,  and of what use it is.  For instance,  if you take a puppy which is blind and deaf at birth,  and you pinch a toe with your fingers,  then they will,  as a human baby,  attempt to pull away.  From that we can conclude that they have the sensation of pain.

HOWEVER,  I've docked the tails of a great many puppies,  when it was legal,  and whilst to say that they don't feel it,  would be nonsense,  I suspect that the iodine hurt more than the snip.  That it caused a degree of pain,  would be obvious,  but within perhaps 30 seconds,  they were quiet.  Remove the finger (as a for instance) of a child,  without any anaesthetic, who was capable of a conversation,  and the reaction would be deafening,  understandably. 

When a mammal is born blind,  deaf and helpless,  I honestly believe that they're only part formed.  Bones in tails,  for instance,  aren't bone as we would understand it,  more a cartilage.  In the days when lambs tails were cut off,  and then skinned and then dropped into a frying pan,  the bones weren't bones at all,  and were nothing more than a fairly solid cartilage. They were delicious,  too!!

I probably haven't helped the argument,  a great deal,  but in truth,  if I thought that the removal of the tail,  from a 2 day old puppy was the agony which we might imagine,  then I wouldn't do it.

Alec.


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## ChesnutsRoasting (21 April 2012)

SusieT said:



			The point is painkillers aren't being witheld, the pain is being managed prior to the dog even waking up and by the time it wears off the dog is its happy self. How else do you judge when to stop the painkillers? How long do you keep giving painkillers for? Until the stitches are out? For a month? Bearing in mind painkillers have side effects so in general you are trying to give for as short a time as the pain.
		
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After a spaying/neuturing I would continue painkillers three days post op. If the dog appeared comfortable, eating well, peeing/pooing as normal then I would discontinue. All meds can have side effects, but the pros and cons should be considered and as I said previously, I would rather err on the side of caution for the sake of a few pills for a few days that may give relief to an animal, stoic or otherwise.


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## SusieT (21 April 2012)

'whilst to say that they don't feel it, would be nonsense' and yet East Kent has insisted that they don't over several pages and that anyone with 'experience' would know this..


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## SusieT (21 April 2012)

why 3 days? Why not 4? And how do you judge that its time to remove if dog has been eating normally, passing normal motions from day one (the night of the op they tend to be groggy from the anaesthetic)?


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## ChesnutsRoasting (21 April 2012)

SusieT said:



			why 3 days? Why not 4? And how do you judge that its time to remove if dog has been eating normally, passing normal motions from day one (the night of the op they tend to be groggy from the anaesthetic)?
		
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I have no idea. I just do. If after a day of no painkillers they show signs of discomfort etc then I would pop them back on them, common sense really.


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## SusieT (21 April 2012)

the thing is, vets do have an idea, they have qualified and studied and know how long a drug lasts etc. so they therefore are in the best place to advise adn this is why drugs are prescription so qualified people can advise based on facts not gut feeling (although I appreciate everything stems from gut feeling)


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## Cinnamontoast (21 April 2012)

SusieT said:



			the thing is, vets do have an idea, they have qualified and studied and know how long a drug lasts etc. so they therefore are in the best place to advise adn this is why drugs are prescription so qualified people can advise based on facts not gut feeling (although I appreciate everything stems from gut feeling)
		
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I agree, partly, although speaking to a friend today who is in training, she is appalled at how much she has yet to learn before qualifying. They aren't experts in every area and the owner can sometimes have a valid input.

They're qualified, they studied, they're not infallible. The amount of people I've spoken to who said their vet refused to listen to them and then had problems treating the horse/dog is huge. 

One vet threw a towel at my (very headshy) mare's head because she reared at the sight of needles and the vet refused to believe that she'd need sedating for a change of bandage. She was trying to cover her eyes. She had to call a colleague to help. 

Don't get me wrong, I love my current vet, but sometimes I do wonder how they can purport to know everything about everything.


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## SusieT (21 April 2012)

how is that relevant to standard pain relief policies? In pain relief the average vet should know far more than the average pet owner.


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## Aru (21 April 2012)

Aru said:



			This is another thing I dont understand.
Why do people think that the Central Nervous System in puppies isn't developed?
Do people think that the CNS of human babies isn't developed at 2 days old?

Is it because they dont have the ability to control their bodies or what is it that has people so convinced?

Genuinely curious about this one......esp as its the opposite to what I was taught and id like to hear the other side of the argument.....
		
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EAST KENT said:



			Based purely on practical experience Aru..I would take the non reaction of a suckling puppy or it`s mother to quietly docking and cauterising in the nest as an indication of non pain. Also I doubt the same non reaction would occur if the puppy was ,say,four weeks old. If a puppy is picked up by it`s mother,or trodden on ,however,it will scream at whatever age.Lambs that are rung however,being much more with it at two days DO exhibit pain,and I hated doing the boys especially;I actually find the way pain is ok in farm animals,but not in dog breeding ,where I believe there is little or none,quite hypocritical. It is so much easier to hit a soft target is`nt it?
  I do hope some of your studies will include a period of working in a breeding kennel so you get the chance to see some of these reactions for yourself,it  is fascinating and often the opposite to what you may presume. I used to be extremely anti docking/dew claw removal..until I had practical experience ..firstly under tuition(!) then on my own.The only dew claw that ever got a little infected was done at a vets!
		
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Ive seen puppies docked as it happens not at at the vets or at a proper breeders (my family weren't great believers in vets for small animals when I was a child.They have no idea where I got my inclinations from  ) So in fairness what I would have seen isn't a serious breeders setting and wasn't ideal. But my uncle had gun dogs and used to breed cockers and springers so I have had the chance to see some pups being born and more than a few docked. 
Some were fine with it..other's screamed blue murder.Some got weepy tails,some did just fine.One of the lovely little roans(always my favourite's of the cockers) died a few days later from infection.None of them initially went off the suck that I remember though it has been a long time.
So perhaps having seen the less than ideal situation I am somewhat gunshy to the idea of docking. That they feel pain I have no doubt.The suckling etc is what infants do for comfort and endorphins its the same with babies if they are small and need injections they are 
given something to suck. They most certainly would object quite a lot more as older pups. 

The issue is though that in current research and this is what our embryology lecturer(who wrote the main books on the subject) would have said is carnivore have a CNS system that is not fully formed until 6 weeks unlike herbivore foals lambs and calves who are born ready to get up and go fully in control of all their senses once the work out what they are.

But as the cns i.e. voluntary motor movement of the legs and senses like eyes ears etc were delayed it it used to be thought that dogs have not fully formed nervous signals so the pain pathways were lessened in pups.
This has been disproven and its actually the case that infants are hypersensitive to pain because they feel it but unlike in older animals they do not have the inhibition,the message to turn of pain off,fully formed so the pain is quite likely to be more severe.

But as they are such young animals they cannot express pain in the ways most do as their CNS reactions are off.They cant flail around like a foal or buck like a lamb they can squeak and squirm or as many people noted here they tend to seek comfort and endorphins from their mothers milk and scent(the soothing sent that bitch's give off to lactating puppies is whats in the DAP collars) Seems like a bit of a raw deal to just assume they feel no pain when they cant express it very well.

If you tried to do what we do to puppies in foals who are born able to use all their limbs and are in full awareness of surroundings they would go bananas.Its much like any injury or pain in foals they act as if they are dying even for mild colic as they have not being exposed to pain very often and can and do express their dislike of the sensation using movement. 

TBH farm animals get the raw deal when it comes to pain control,and I do agree that ringing lambs is painful to them. I really dont like to see it done in the ram lambs but thankfully have only come across it occasionally as where Im from we kill ram lambs young so castration isn't required.
The only reason I find the ringing some what more excusable of the tails of lambs is because Flystrike is such a horrible disease to get and its so common that some sort of tail dock is needed. I dont think its ideal but the economics of farming has it button holed at the minute. I am very glad that we do not have breeds of sheep or a climate that brings on practices like muleing .

TBH done in a sterile field with properly sterilized instruments,preferably at home as small puppies and vet practices do not a good mix make, and with a bitch beside them and some lidocaine to numb,though lidocaine stings it works well at numbing pain after, I would be quite happy to dock gundog pups as long as they were going to be worked. I have my doubts about how much of a difference it makes in the overall scheme but like SusieT im waiting to see more studies on wether the undocked gundogs do get more tail injurys or not....but it does make sense that they are high risk when working cover.

I wouldn't be happy to dock Dobes. I think its purely cosmetic plus in a breed where Von Willebrands can be an issue and only the responsible are testing for it its like dicing with death to see if your pups will clot or not and I have heard the horror stories of puppies who bled out and the owners blamed the vet as they didn't believe the dog was carrying diseases and accused them of "covering up".
It would be nice to think that everyone is responsible with their dogs,knows the basics about breeding and issues of the breed they own but IMO  thus for I have found the opposite to be true. Accidental litters and back yard breeders are ten times more common than responsible breeders. Many people do not research their breeds before they buy them and as for neutering many people who own entire dogs do not keep them under control.Perhaps its better in england than here but that has been my experience of practice over the last few years. 

Boxers, rotties, OES, terriers......I dont see how it benefits these dogs to be docked.It seems to be cosmetic...all dogs have a risk of splitting their tails open if the traumatise it.These non working dogs do not tend to do the type of terrain that spaniels do half as often.So they should be no more likely to do damage than other undocked dog.

and i am most definately rambling on now so il quit while im ahead...


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## Cinnamontoast (21 April 2012)

Standard pain relief? How about the vet who rendered a horse unconscious when trying to sedate it? Surely that's also standard? Unless you're trying to kill the horse?  Basic weight ratio is quite straight forward, unless you don't know it off by heart as a vet with many years' experience will have.

Vets, as I said, are not infallible. I seriously think their first few years of practise are very scary: they can't remember everything and they're alone on callouts. They don't know the animal better than the owner and should take on board what the contribution from the owner constitutes, including the need or otherwise for pain relief.


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## Cinnamontoast (21 April 2012)

But Aru, it's pretty hard to guarantee that all pups from a litter will be working. You have to, as the breeder, make the decision to dock or otherwise at a couple of days. It's like Vizzy already said, you can't leave one undocked thinking you'll keep it for showing when in 6 weeks you might change your mind.


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## SusieT (21 April 2012)

'Standard pain relief? How about the vet who rendered a horse unconscious when trying to sedate it? Surely that's also standard? Unless you're trying to kill the horse? Basic weight ratio is quite straight forward, unless you don't know it off by heart as a vet with many years' experience will have.' again how is that relevant? It's quite obvious that is not normal given by the many horses sedated daily.. As I say, average vet knows more than average pet owner regarding required pain relief. and a vet being new doesn't mean they know less, in fact their knowledge is up to date so most accurate on things LIKE pain relief.  But I digress, you clearly have beef with vets in general but like it or not owners have not studied, often misinterpret things (which is the most important bit) and cannot look at the animal from an objective viewpoint in an average scenario. That's all I have to say as we're going round in circles adn I don't see the need for lots of 'but this vet was crap, oh but this vet was good' stories.


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## SusieT (21 April 2012)

Aru, excellent post.


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## Aru (22 April 2012)

cinnamontoast said:



			But Aru, it's pretty hard to guarantee that all pups from a litter will be working. You have to, as the breeder, make the decision to dock or otherwise at a couple of days. It's like Vizzy already said, you can't leave one undocked thinking you'll keep it for showing when in 6 weeks you might change your mind.
		
Click to expand...

Thats why it would be really go to know if spaniels are actually that much higher of a risk or not.... if they are not then the owners might have to chose which they want show dogs or working dogs. I doubt quite highly that a pet spaniel is at as high a risk as a working one. Pets dont tend to have the same freedom to get under cover as a working dog and if they do then the question is are these dogs more at risk then a similar undocked dog....im most cases I'd say they are not.People and pets can get unlucky but the constant risk isn't there.
That said how many working dogs are genuinely show quality? in many breeds the show strain and the workers are well separated at this point.Granted there are exceptions and Vizslas happen to be one of them 

Perhaps my gundog knowledge has gotten rusty but vizslas are the multipurpose point retrieve dogs no? but pointers and retrievers dont usually work deep cover....they enter to retrieve but they dont get the same constant exposure as spaniels.So why chop of the end of the tail?
Is the risk to the tip third that much higher than a retriever entering?
pointer are docked in some breeds but not others.....the english pointers aren't docked true they do not always retriever though some can be good at it....if they are ok why are they insisting on taking of the tip of other pointing breeds. Cosmetics or breed standards how different are they....
So I'd be tempted to say leave all the tails alone if your not sure.Why chop off the tail unnecessarily in a dog that may never work or if it does work will not be constantly working deep cover....but perhaps im missing something as its late and I should really be in bed...


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## Alec Swan (22 April 2012)

Aru,

the risk to spaniels,  or HPRs isn't so much because of the fact that one will or wont enter dense cover,  but more because of their action.  Spaniels in particular have a near frantic tail action,  and this is where they are at risk.  It's true that HPRs tend not to be quite as keen on the worst of cover,  as are spaniels,  but none the less,  there are many who have a tail action which is just as energetic,  and therein lies the risk.

Alec.


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## Cinnamontoast (22 April 2012)

SusieT, it is honestly AMAZING how you manage to tell me what I think! I do to have a 'beef' with vets generally. I gave examples because it shows that they sometimes don't know best, despite the studying. _Sometimes_ it is a good idea to listen to the owner.

P.S. To quote, click on quote, bottom right. It's quite simple. To multi quote, click on the box with the + and the ".


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## EAST KENT (22 April 2012)

Well,maybe in my innocence then I was docking my puppies whilst endorphins were being released..brilliant! It was just my way of ensuring no visible pain ,no idea it was all scientific.
  Spaniels working cover definitely need docking,just common sense once you see the frantic tail lashing normal to them almost all the time in action.  OES..mm..having done dog grooming for many many years they most definitely need docking.Possibly with an attentive owner it might be ok,but the vast majority get the owners I tended to see.Only did one OES with a tail..and I had no idea it was there before I got to that area with the Stablemate clippers (dog clippers are`nt man enough for a well matted OES) That tail was glued to a hind leg with matted fur and poop ..long dried.
  The owners were`nt cruel or openly neglectful,just unaware that this previous farm breed now had such a ridiculous high maintenance coat that it could`nt romp aropund outside like it`s ancesters did.
    Sad that Aru`s breeding kennel experience did not include using the wondrous potassium permangernate (?)  as a stop bleed and sterilising agent on tails and dew claws,it is a miraculous if old fashioned way of absolutely ensuring clean healing.
It has one snag though,your fingers afterward will look like you smoke 80 of the old "Turf" ciggies every day!


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## CorvusCorax (22 April 2012)

Re OES my best friend and her parents have bred them for years. Undocked and unclipped, the mess is horrendous. As EK says, many owners these days don't realise what is required to keep the BOBTAIL (not anymore!) in good nick.


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