# How NOT to ride a young horse forward.



## kerilli (26 November 2012)

This charming video is doing the rounds on Facebook. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXdIicGvIEM&feature=youtu.be

The worst example of horsemanship that I've seen for years. And as for the videoer laughing, that just makes it even worse - she wasn't horrified, from which I infer that this sort of treatment is nothing new there.    
You really should be ashamed of yourselves. That young horse had STOPPED bucking at least once when he hit it again and set it off again. Am I alone in REALLY not seeing what on earth he thought he was going to accomplish with that?! 
Blood absolutely boiling here.


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## patchandloopy (26 November 2012)

I thought excatly the same, I dont have sound at work so didnt realise the videoer was laughing.

Grrrr!


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## BeckyCandy (26 November 2012)

That's disgusting! No wonder there are so many damaged horses out there!


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## ihatework (26 November 2012)

What *****.
Another company to log for future note not to purchase from!

I was just sad the jockey wasn't face first in the puddle


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## Tash88 (26 November 2012)

Awful, the 'rider' isn't using his legs at all and judging by the sound the whip was making he was hitting the poor horse very hard indeed. I suppose they were trying to beat the horse into submission but to most people that process is archaic and cruel, not to mention ineffective.


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## tabithakat64 (26 November 2012)

That's disgusting behaviour  poor horse.


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## nikkimariet (26 November 2012)

Sad he didn't fall off sooner.

Poor pony


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## kirstykate (26 November 2012)

I am NOT condoning this behavior at all, but we dont have the full facts, how do what not know that this is not the last stop saloon for a serial bucker?  The horse may already be damaged goods and they are trying to fix the problem before it goes in a hole?


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## SpottedCat (26 November 2012)

ihatework said:



			What *****.
Another company to log for future note not to purchase from!

I was just sad the jockey wasn't face first in the puddle
		
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I would never ever have let you if you'd mentioned it to me, knowing what I know!


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## Alfami (26 November 2012)

Another one here with boiling blood.  How absolutely pointless - poor horse, looked a nice sort too.

You know, if someone posted a video of that being done to a dog or a cat they'd be in court pretty smartish.  I'm far from a wimp and will reprimand a horse (& support others who do so) if strictly necessary, but that utterly disgusts me.


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## SpottedCat (26 November 2012)

kirstykate said:



			I am NOT condoning this behavior at all, but we dont have the full facts, how do what not know that this is not the last stop saloon for a serial bucker?  The horse may already be damaged goods and they are trying to fix the problem before it goes in a hole?
		
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And the way to do that _is_ to smack it when it isn't doing anything at all, in fact when it has stopped, isn't it? Oh no, wait...... 

This was originally put on youtube with the title 'he don't want to be broke' (or words to that effect in similarly poor english! It was made private by the original posters on youtube, but someone saved it and reuploaded it. 

Really, regardless of the situation, that's not a way to fix anything, last chance saloon or not.


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## Brimmers (26 November 2012)

That is sickening.

"Ohhhh tick tocks got a little buck in him aint he?" Disgusting woman.

Lets put a saddle on these lowlives and beat them with a whip


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## shywhitebadger (26 November 2012)

ihatework said:



			What *****.
Another company to log for future note not to purchase from!
		
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Google the name, you would never have gone there before seeing this video!


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## Dizzco (26 November 2012)

This is very sad.
Think its just a case of someone using a horses misfortune to get those all so important online 'hits' and 'laughs'.  

It's clearly being provoked, as OP says the horse is happy to stop bucking, it just keeps bucking because it keeps getting hit. Young horses are such a pleasure to work on the whole and it should be cherished, why oh why are people like this, it baffles me.


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## be positive (26 November 2012)

I was hoping he would come off but then wondered what the poor horse would have to go through if he did, it does not really bear thinking about what happens next. At no time did he ask the horse to go forward or allow it to when it tried  what were they trying to achieve, poor little horse a great way to start its ridden life.


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## ihatework (26 November 2012)

God it would be kinder in some ways to give the horse a bullet than leave it with those eejit chavs if it were last chance saloon (which I strongly suspect it's not)


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## kerilli (26 November 2012)

kirstykate said:



			I am NOT condoning this behavior at all, but we dont have the full facts, how do what not know that this is not the last stop saloon for a serial bucker?  The horse may already be damaged goods and they are trying to fix the problem before it goes in a hole?
		
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Are you serious? Watch the horse. I counted, and I think that AT LEAST 6 times (more, at my count) he stopped bucking, but the rider hit him hard again and set him off again. And those aren't the bucks of a serious bronc'er, he's not leaping and twisting. I'd lay a LOT of money that a decent sympathetic rider using their LEGS not a whip could have had him going forward nicely in 2 minutes. 
Poor horse. Fix the problem? You must be joking.    I am not against punishing a flipping naughty horse if it's being downright evil for no reason (after all the usual checks etc) but this one... no way did it deserve being hit that hard, that frequently. Disgusting.


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## Ilovefoals (26 November 2012)

That makes me so angry!!! Stupid, ignorant idiots


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## Diddleydoo (26 November 2012)

Disgusting.  Surely that is enough evidence to report them to one of the welfare organisations?


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## kirstyhen (26 November 2012)

If that is a serial bucker then I'll eat my hat! I thought its reaction looked fairly tame given what he's doing to it, I've had to ride worse buckers than that and I certainly didn't beat them around the school! Poor pony. In fact having watched it again, the only real buck it does is when he comes off.
Another that was disappointed he didn't face plant in the puddle.


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## YasandCrystal (26 November 2012)

I think their attempt at English in the title sums up the level of their horsemanship. I think you are being kind Kerilli saying that the horse had stopped bucking at least once - it was certainly more than once but didn't want to watch it again to count. Disgusting and I hope the rider hurt her face.


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## noodle_ (26 November 2012)

sad video.....but brilliant to the power of HHO and youtube....and facebook for that matter!!

sometimes a bad thing but internet in this case has done it good....keep it bumped and stop their trade... well done guys.


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## BBH (26 November 2012)

And the message is don't buy at ...

Never ceases to amaze me how some people still know nothing about animal training.


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## angrovestud (26 November 2012)

That video is a tragic lack of respect for the horse and it is horse abuse if it wasant that woman would not think its funny!


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## j1ffy (26 November 2012)

The scary thing is (if I'm looking at the right website), they seem to have sold a lot of 3 and 4yos including some nicely bred horses!!


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## Puppy (26 November 2012)

I really hope that this video going viral helps to put them out of business!


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## BBH (26 November 2012)

j1ffy said:



			The scary thing is (if I'm looking at the right website), they seem to have sold a lot of 3 and 4yos including some nicely bred horses!!
		
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Yes from the billy stud.

Wouldn't want my name or horses associated with them tbh. 

That clip obs wasn't for public viewing was it.


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## monkeybum13 (26 November 2012)

BBH said:



			Yes from the billy stud.

Wouldn't want my name or horses associated with them tbh. 

That clip obs wasn't for public viewing was it.
		
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On facebook it says 




			The Billy Stud has never had any direct involvement with ... and has no association with them what so ever. This is the only official Billy Stud Facebook page.
		
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## kirstykate (26 November 2012)

SpottedCat said:



			And the way to do that _is_ to smack it when it isn't doing anything at all, in fact when it has stopped, isn't it? Oh no, wait...... 

This was originally put on youtube with the title 'he don't want to be broke' (or words to that effect in similarly poor english! It was made private by the original posters on youtube, but someone saved it and reuploaded it. 

Really, regardless of the situation, that's not a way to fix anything, last chance saloon or not.
		
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I said I am NOT condoning this behavior these boys are a disgrace knocking a horse about for entertainment, thats not a bucker nor a difficult one just giving it slaps to make it buck and show off I would say there just cowboys poor poor horsemanship that should be ashamed of themselves at least the horse had the last laugh and put him in the dirt.  But equally we shouldnt pass judgment too quickly as we do not have the full facts.


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## j1ffy (26 November 2012)

BBH said:



			Yes from the billy stud.

Wouldn't want my name or horses associated with them tbh. 

That clip obs wasn't for public viewing was it.
		
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monkeybum13 said:



			On facebook it says
		
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I was wondering about that, which made me wonder if I was looking at the right site.  I don't blame the Billy stud for distancing themselves - presumably the dealers buy youngsters there and ride (if you'll pardon the pun!) on their good name.  Who knows, perhaps the video was a one-off, though I doubt it based on the attitude...


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## jhoward (26 November 2012)

i see on IH website they have a forum... do we all need to go and join


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## kerilli (26 November 2012)

kirstykate said:



			I said I am NOT condoning this behavior these boys are a disgrace knocking a horse about for entertainment, thats not a bucker nor a difficult one just giving it slaps to make it buck and show off I would say there just cowboys poor poor horsemanship that should be ashamed of themselves at least the horse had the last laugh and put him in the dirt.  But equally we shouldnt pass judgment too quickly as we do not have the full facts.
		
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I doubt the poor thing did have 'the last laugh' because I wouldn't want to bet he didn't stripe it up even more after falling off it. 
We don't need 'the full facts', we can all see that it isn't a terrible bucker, so why on EARTH does he keep hitting it so hard? For amusement? The person videoing obviously finds it incredibly funny. To try to make himself look like a better rider? HUGE fail there, then. He just looks like a total idiot, deliberately abusing a confused young horse. 
I wouldn't insult a cowboy by saying he was one!


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## milo'n'molly (26 November 2012)

Funnily enough, you can't sign up anymore


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## kerilli (26 November 2012)

well, it's a small world. someone recognised the horse in the video from his name and his appearance and rang his former owner. he had been on this yard LESS THAN AN HOUR when this video was taken, apparently. so much for previous history etc. 
poor poor lovely green baby horse. i am SO livid for the former owner and for the horse. utter utter BASTARDS.


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## kerilli (26 November 2012)

oh look, a bad word got through. ha, didn't expect that.


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## Nightmare before Christmas (26 November 2012)

j1ffy said:



			I was wondering about that, which made me wonder if I was looking at the right site.  I don't blame the Billy stud for distancing themselves - presumably the dealers buy youngsters there and ride (if you'll pardon the pun!) on their good name.  Who knows, perhaps the video was a one-off, though I doubt it based on the attitude...
		
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you do have the right site, they have quite a few from the billy stud


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## jhoward (26 November 2012)

did the horse have issues to of ended up at the dealers in the first place?


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## kerilli (26 November 2012)

jhoward said:



			did the horse have issues to of ended up at the dealers in the first place?
		
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No, apparently not. None at all.


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## jhoward (26 November 2012)

so in short... new horse gets delivered. they tack it up and crack it for no logical reason... 
makes you wonder what else happens to their horses.


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## paddi22 (26 November 2012)

can anyone see their facebook page? are there comments on it about the video?


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## SpottedCat (26 November 2012)

badgermyers said:



			you do have the right site, they have quite a few from the billy stud
		
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All is not as it seems there either - put it this way, the ones they sell with those lines, they are still making money on. Look at the prices they sell them for, and then join the dots......and no, I'm not implying they are not Billy horses, they are.


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## WellyBaggins (26 November 2012)

OH  disgusting!


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## Nightmare before Christmas (26 November 2012)

The one I seem to have hasnt been updated since early oct. I thought I had another page for them but thats gone


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## MillionDollar (26 November 2012)

So so sad  I'd love someone to whip both the rider and the woman........see who is laughing then!


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## Nightmare before Christmas (26 November 2012)

SpottedCat said:



			All is not as it seems there either - put it this way, the ones they sell with those lines, they are still making money on. Look at the prices they sell them for, and then join the dots......and no, I'm not implying they are not Billy horses, they are.
		
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Yes I agree they are I have seen them out and about


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## kerilli (26 November 2012)

My sources tell me that the horse is being picked up soon.
Apparently "Their attitude was they had done nothing wrong & do not understand what all the fuss is about!!"
Which says it all, unfortunately. If they can't even see what the fuss is about... jeez, who trained these cruel idiots? Seriously?


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## Puppy (26 November 2012)

kerilli said:



			My sources tell me that the horse is being picked up soon.
Apparently "Their attitude was they had done nothing wrong & do not understand what all the fuss is about!!"
Which says it all, unfortunately. If they can't even see what the fuss is about... jeez, who trained these cruel idiots? Seriously?
		
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Let's hope they start to see things a little clearer when their business goes down the pan...


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## 3bh (26 November 2012)

I do hope you are right (on the former point!) for the horses sake.

Billy stud released a statement saying they have never had any direct dealings with ...?


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## redredruby (26 November 2012)

Do you know who is picking the horse up? Someone nice i hope, that is the least the poor horse deserves.


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## SpottedCat (26 November 2012)

3bh said:



			Billy stud released a statement saying they have never had any direct dealings with ...?
		
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That would fit with what I know too.


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## SpottedCat (26 November 2012)

redredruby said:



			Do you know who is picking the horse up? Someone nice i hope, that is the least the poor horse deserves.
		
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If the horse is the one I think it is, then yes, someone nice


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## Nightmare before Christmas (26 November 2012)

SpottedCat said:



			That would fit with what I know too.
		
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inbox me please


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## magic104 (26 November 2012)

For all of you defending this band of sh@theads, think on.  They picked Tic Toc up yesterday & next thing some moronic bit%ch is laughing & giggling while another moronic f@@ckhead is beating a baby, that is all he is, a baby.  He has had very little done & this IS NOT THE WAY TO TREAT A BABY.  My god I thought I was angry before, but to see people try & defend this morons has just made my blood boil!!!!!!!!!!


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## Roasted Chestnuts (26 November 2012)

Thank god he is being picked up poor poor wee animal 

If I was the breeder of the horses they are abusing I'd be livid at this and wouldn't be selling them anymore horses and I would be putting people off them!

Disgusting I hope they get shut down and criminal action taken! The RSPCA and WHW can't possibly let them wriggle from this one!


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## noodle_ (26 November 2012)

did the person who's picking the horse up sell to these "people"??

or sent it for schooling??

bit confused.....but either way hope she/he gets the horse away from these pillocks


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## kerilli (26 November 2012)

magic104 said:



			For all of you defending this band of sh@theads, think on.  They picked Tic Toc up yesterday & next thing some moronic bit%ch is laughing & giggling while another moronic f@@ckhead is beating a baby, that is all he is, a baby.  He has had very little done & this IS NOT THE WAY TO TREAT A BABY.  My god I thought I was angry before, but to see people try & defend this morons has just made my blood boil!!!!!!!!!!
		
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Ditto.
Former owner is en route to pick it up. Did not know it was going to them, someone else handled the sale. The horse is 4 yrs old, hasn't been sat on for 6 weeks, and had been on that yard for less than a day. Poor little sod.


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## teapot (26 November 2012)

kerilli said:



			My sources tell me that the horse is being picked up soon.
Apparently "Their attitude was they had done nothing wrong & do not understand what all the fuss is about!!"
Which says it all, unfortunately. If they can't even see what the fuss is about... jeez, who trained these cruel idiots? Seriously?
		
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You're assuming they got trained in the first place, which I highly doubt.

Poor horse and glad, thanks to a small world he'll be leaving ASAP


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## noodle_ (26 November 2012)

kerilli said:



			Ditto.
Former owner is en route to pick it up. Did not know it was going to them, someone else handled the sale. The horse is 4 yrs old, hasn't been sat on for 6 weeks, and had been on that yard for less than a day. Poor little sod.   

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they actually going to sell it her back though?


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## Puppy (26 November 2012)

I do hope we can get an update when the poor horse is back home, safe and sound.


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## kerilli (26 November 2012)

being bought back by former owner afaik.


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## magic104 (26 November 2012)

Basically Tic Toc was bought with the intention of the owners friend getting him going with the daughter eventing him.  He did not grow enough & the friend got too busy to do anything with him.  He was long-reined, lunged etc before being backed & very little else.  He was sold because he was costing the owner money & achieving very little.  The friend was responsible for selling him.  He went for peanuts hence ending up with monkeys!  He is by Brief Encounter & his 1/2 brother by Jumbo is eventing at Int.  The market is so cr@p that people have to cut their losses.  The owner was made aware of this video & as soon as he knew it was Tic Toc he was on the phone to the morons arranging to get him back.  He would rather see him PTS then end up with low lives like these.


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## squiz22 (26 November 2012)

Good grief! I watched the video and it made me so angry. The horse looks quite sweet and could be doing a lot worse considering the bashing hes taking! I would like this guy name and shamed.. and the videor! 

What a joke and what poor horsemanship! 

Lets hope this little one gets home safe and sound!


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## squiz22 (26 November 2012)

p.s. post the details up on here! I for one am interetsed if theres a l potential little project


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## kerilli (26 November 2012)

Exactly, magic104. 
It's an awful situation and i'm very glad the horse is away from them. Looks a lovely youngster, not a bad one at all. Just ended up in a crap situation through no fault of his own OR the former owner's... and he was totally shocked and has done everything he can to remedy the situation asap. 
We need a shortage of horses in this country ffs.


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## noodle_ (26 November 2012)

glad the horse is safe 


what did the numpty dealers have to say?? im sure they are aware how little they are thought of now after all the viral video sharing!?


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## magic104 (26 November 2012)

His breeding details http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?0=...shore&qhspice@hotmail.co.uk&ad_session=eS1w1i  though I think he is 15.2 now.  And he was very well behaved when he was at Aston le Walls.  No stable vices & happy to be in or out, loved being groomed & fussed.  He is a sweet little boy & deserves better.


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## SpottedCat (26 November 2012)

kerilli said:



			Exactly, magic104. 
It's an awful situation and i'm very glad the horse is away from them. Looks a lovely youngster, not a bad one at all. Just ended up in a crap situation through no fault of his own OR the former owner's... and he was totally shocked and has done everything he can to remedy the situation asap. 
We need a shortage of horses in this country ffs.   

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It's sad as sounded a v sweet horse.


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## Marydoll (26 November 2012)

kerilli said:



			Are you serious? Watch the horse. I counted, and I think that AT LEAST 6 times (more, at my count) he stopped bucking, but the rider hit him hard again and set him off again. And those aren't the bucks of a serious bronc'er, he's not leaping and twisting. I'd lay a LOT of money that a decent sympathetic rider using their LEGS not a whip could have had him going forward nicely in 2 minutes. 
Poor horse. Fix the problem? You must be joking.    I am not against punishing a flipping naughty horse if it's being downright evil for no reason (after all the usual checks etc) but this one... no way did it deserve being hit that hard, that frequently. Disgusting.
		
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Agreed,^^^^ the fact that the onlooker states tic tock's got a buck makes me think its possibly first time under saddle, what a truly awful experience that will no doubt be the start of the end for what looks to be a fairly  decent wee horse, i'd have to wonder if this is the way they introduce the rider, is the background work even done ??, if started properly he possibly wouldnt have bucked at all. Most of the bucks were in retaliation to the attacks on him poor soul Personally i wouldnt let them near a rocking horse, shower of ......
Just read he's away from them hurrah, i feel so sorry for him and the owners who sent him there having read the background


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## micramadam (26 November 2012)

Shocked, disgusted and mad.

There was another video doing the rounds a few days ago of a bucking yongster over here. Now I'm not condoning that treatment but at least he wasn't being hit with the whip like these people were doing to this poor animal. I'd love to let them feel the sting of the whip as many times as this poor horse did.


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## teapot (26 November 2012)

If anyone wants to 'rescue' Poppy from them for me I'd be very happy! They've got some nice horses actually...


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## Amymay (26 November 2012)

Would love to have a 'final' update on this when the owner is able to post - or pass it through connections.


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## Uraeus (26 November 2012)

Discusting. WHat is he actually trying to achieve? This is torment, not correcting behavour. The horse is doing absolutely nothing wrong. Was I the only one who was feeling uplifted when the guy got deposited? These people don't deserve to be graced with the presents of a horse. Poor creature.


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## ihatework (26 November 2012)

Very sad indeed. Hope he isn't too set back by the awful experience 

Name is ringing a bell now, wasn't he one of the Grafham Stud reduction lots?


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## SnowPhony (26 November 2012)

What really upset me about that video is that the horse looks like a lovely and willing little chap. Why the hell is the rider just beating him? He actually stops bucking so they hit him again! 

Can't believe some people are defending by saying we don't know the full story. Sorry but you can tell that's not a bad horse. The poor little sod is retaliating to being whacked. At no point does the rider try and ride him forward in a civilised manner. There is no excuse for that at all.


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## SpottedCat (26 November 2012)

ihatework said:



			Very sad indeed. Hope he isn't too set back by the awful experience 

Name is ringing a bell now, wasn't he one of the Grafham Stud reduction lots?
		
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No, he wasn't. I've emailed you.


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## magic104 (26 November 2012)

ihatework said:



			Very sad indeed. Hope he isn't too set back by the awful experience 

Name is ringing a bell now, wasn't he one of the Grafham Stud reduction lots?
		
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No but he was bought his breeder last year to go eventing but did not grow big enough for the person concerned.  They in turn did not have the time anyway, so his owner was put in a difficult situation, carry on paying for a horse doing nothing or cut his losses & sell.  It was the connections who sold him to these so called dealers!


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## SnowPhony (26 November 2012)

amymay said:



			Maybe they'd like to post on here the reasons for beating this poor animal in the way they did.  And how they justify starting youngsters like that......
		
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Wouldn't hold your breath! I can't think how on earth anyone with half a brain cell could even think its excusable. Hopefully the relevant authorities catch up with them soon enough.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (26 November 2012)

Yep I agree sending if sending forum feed back gets this thread pulled it will just come back again!! You can't silence the truth especially when you have handed people the proof and smoking gun!!


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## SnowPhony (26 November 2012)

magic104 said:



			Tough, so what, they were stupid enough to post the video in the first place.  Nothing has been said that is not fact & you most certaintly can not deny what is clearly seen as abuse of a very young horse.
		
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Woah! Hold on one minute! I've said the video is disgusting, I was just alerting people they are here and saying I wouldn't be suprised if they get it pulled. Not sure on what grounds as surely its not slanderous when its plain to see what's happening.


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## Amymay (26 November 2012)

tashy said:



			Woah! Hold on one minute! I've said the video is disgusting, I was just alerting people they are here and saying I wouldn't be suprised if they get it pulled. Not sure on what grounds as surely its not slanderous when its plain to see what's happening.
		
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Magic wasn't having a go at you Tashy.


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## jhoward (26 November 2012)

It would be nice if hho didn't remove the thread but for once supported the equine world and stood up for it!!


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## ajn1610 (26 November 2012)

This is just really really sad. I'm not angry about it because I don't find it shocking, I see more and more of this atrocious attitude and type of behaviour all the time. There are thousands of so called professionals and amateurs literally destroying horses up and down the country through willful ignorance and a total disregard for the animal. What it comes down to is there are just too many horses, the market is stagnant and that means even nice well bred animals end up with idiots like these. A friend of mine bought a nice show quality Welsh pony for £4.50 a few weeks ago. The breeder swapped it for paying off a milk bill. Anyone who is breeding has a share in the responsibility of what is happening to these animals, there isn't anywhere decent for them to end up and it's tragic.


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## magic104 (26 November 2012)

tashy said:



			Woah! Hold on one minute! I've said the video is disgusting, I was just alerting people they are here and saying I wouldn't be suprised if they get it pulled. Not sure on what grounds as surely its not slanderous when its plain to see what's happening.
		
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Tahsy not personal to you.  I hope H&H see that it is their hard luck it has made such a stir.  Who after all was stupid enough to put it up in the first place.


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## magic104 (26 November 2012)

amymay said:



			Magic wasn't having a go at you Tashy.
		
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Smiley face...


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## weebarney (26 November 2012)

Shocks me the way some people on this and other threads can say 'dont know whats gone on , how bad horse behaves etc'. There is NEVER an excuse to ride a horse like that . END OF!


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## Amymay (26 November 2012)

Interesting.


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## dafthoss (26 November 2012)

The worst bit is the video doesnt suprise me coming from them  poor young horse, he looks an absolute sweety shame he didnt manage to get the sh!!t on top under his feet when he had him off. I'm suprised any one buys horses from them, a little google and you can find out all sorts.


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## SnowPhony (26 November 2012)

amymay said:



			Magic wasn't having a go at you Tashy.
		
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Fair play, things sometimes read wrong don't they? My bad!


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## galaxy (26 November 2012)

I saw this vid this morning as I know the girl who saved the video they published on you tube and re uploaded it when they deleted it. 

(You also can recognise their school etc from the vid as the one on their website....)


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## Roasted Chestnuts (26 November 2012)

It is them!! Its their groom, their school god how can they be so brazen as to deny it! It was on THEIR YT along with horses they are selling (proof on the website which has their name on it!)

Yes good compromise on HHO but just because they are dealers doesn't mean they can silence people. 

And the fact that the owners are taking the horse back from those dealers!! How can they deny all that evidence?


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## Pidgeon (26 November 2012)

funny how the yard in this video looks exactly the same as the one that features in lots of their other videos, who do they think they are trying to kid! hmmmmmph really not impressed and despite nice looking horses most certainly will never buy one from them based on what I've seen today.


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## Amymay (26 November 2012)

Also had a PM from Admin.

Thank you for not pulling the thread.


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## BBH (26 November 2012)

Look on UKSJ FB page. Name given for rider and women videoing.

They'll be in damage limitation mode now having moved on from 
' don't know what all the fuss is about'.

Hence the denials.


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## asterid (26 November 2012)

Argh! How damn awful. To echo others, hope the poor baby horse does not suffer from this ordeal in the future. 

Some people are utter eeejits and animal abusers! Why they think that is acceptable is beyond me. No wonder so many horses are ruined. Always rider error not horse error! 

Bet the Billy stud are well chuffed! Denial or not, will hurt their business too. 

Get ... shut down, bunch of abusing w.........rs


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## Amymay (26 November 2012)

Shall we stop talking about it now - until there is an outcome to report, especially from the old owners and the collection of the horse???


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## hcm88 (26 November 2012)

How they're going to try and prove its not them I do not know!!

Disgusting, I hope at least this topic makes them feel ashamed of their behaviour if nothing else.


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## magic104 (26 November 2012)

weebarney said:



			Well who else is it then? Its on their yard by the looks of their other videos. maybe they'd like to explain.
		
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The horse was sold to them, his owner is going there to pick him up, so let them explain that!!


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## joeanne (26 November 2012)

Until its confirmed the old owners have the horse back in their care, i'm with AmyMay on this one.....don't jepordise the horse being taken out that hell hole.


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## MagicMelon (26 November 2012)

kirstykate said:



			I am NOT condoning this behavior at all, but we dont have the full facts, how do what not know that this is not the last stop saloon for a serial bucker?  The horse may already be damaged goods and they are trying to fix the problem before it goes in a hole?
		
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You dont need to know anything further, this video says it all.  Even if it was a serial bucker, the horse stops bucking a few times and still gets smacked - what on earth does that teach it?  You buck you get a smack, you dont buck you get a smack!


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## 3bh (26 November 2012)

3bh said:



			I do hope you are right (on the former point!) for the horses sake.

Billy stud released a statement saying they have never had any direct dealings with ...?
		
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Thank you to TFC for allowing this thread to stay and editing out the name I mentionned, I appreciate that as this is something that NEEDs to be discussed, not just deleted as per NL threads.


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## dafthoss (26 November 2012)

asterid said:



			Get ... shut down, bunch of abusing w.........rs
		
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They will only open under another name sadly , the only way would be for no one to buy from them but they are sneaky buggers about that aswell.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (26 November 2012)

Can someone PM me the link to the FB page? Ta x


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## joeanne (26 November 2012)

Both the personal and business pages for said individual have been removed......


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## weebarney (26 November 2012)

My post got deleted by HHO for mentioning them, which wouldnt bother me that much if it wasnt for the fact i HADNT mentioned them.


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## Amymay (26 November 2012)

weebarney said:



			My post got deleted by HHO for mentioning them, which wouldnt bother me that much if it wasnt for the fact i HADNT mentioned them.
		
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So did mine.

But who cares??????


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## weebarney (26 November 2012)

amymay said:



			So did mine.

But who cares??????
		
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ME!


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## SnowPhony (26 November 2012)

weebarney said:



			ME!
		
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To be fair, there are worse things in this thread than posts being pulled.


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## magic104 (26 November 2012)

Do you know what is sad.  When I saw this video for the first time my thoughts were of anger, but that was all.  Why because abuse of humans & animals takes place every single day in every single country.  You become detached, angry, but detached.  It was the use of Tic Toc's name that made me watch it again.  Even at my age it caused me to start shaking & I just felt utter dispaire.  I asked who I thought owned him if he had sold him to these people.  He did not seem to think he had but had not delt with the sale.  He saw the video & was a bit unsure & went to investigate before coming back & confirming it was his horse.  I had to hang up as I just could not stop the sobs, I was utterly devasted that such a lovely baby had ended up with low lives like these.  So I had gone from being angry because it was "Just another horse" to complete & utter dispaire because it has somehow become personal.  This is not just down to overbreeding, as horses are still being imported into the UK.  This is a combination of things, people not wanting to pay a decent price for one thing.  This young horse sold for less then his stud fee.  Circumstances meant he had to be found a home.  People were unwilling to pay a fair price for a youngster that had done so little, because there are so many cheap horses out there.  I enquired about a lovely 6yo mare for 500 a 16hh WB.  Because I was going to see her before this other woman who had arranged to view her later, she transfered the deposit without even seeing the mare.  Same with another one, a nice 4yo TB mare sold for 495 & it goes on.  The people selling are not vetting the homes.  They have no idea where these horses are going.  One thing is for sure, it is not for meat, prices are down in that area as there is no shortage of animals.  If people can not respect each other, then we sure as hell will not respect our animals.


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## BBH (26 November 2012)

Don't quote their name until HHO have finished their investigations. We don't want the thread pulled.


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## YasandCrystal (26 November 2012)

It's really sad and so unnecessary. My horse was abused by a trainer whom I know has abused many horses and people still think he is good. It has taken 2 years for my horse to trust again. He has turned kind horses aggressive with his abusive handling and riding, even witnessed by one owner.
This is why I would never trust sending a horse away to a trainer - this is all too common and it makes me very sad.


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## Little Fat Pony (26 November 2012)

magic104 said:



			If people can not respect each other, then we sure as hell will not respect our animals.
		
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Totally agree with all your post, but that sentence stands out. Hope the old owner gets his horse back, and I hope the idiots who bought him chose another hobby - one that doesn't involve animals of any kind


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## weebarney (26 November 2012)

tashy said:



			To be fair, there are worse things in this thread than posts being pulled.
		
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There are worse things in the world than in this thread but it doesnt mean we shouldnt talk about it!


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## ajn1610 (26 November 2012)

I'm sorry that this has affected you personally Magic, it is really sad. I'm not totally clear on the point you are making though? 
I understand that the owner bought the horse with the intention of producing it and selling on and that for one reason or another this didn't work out. However the owner doesn't seem from your description to have taken much interest in what happened to the horse. It seems like they allowed a third party to sell it on to someone else without knowing who they are or checking them out at all. I believe that when you breed/buy/import an animal you are responsible for it. If it turns out not to be suitable for you then it's your responsibility to find it a job of work, produce it to a point where it has a chance and do your best to find it a suitable home. I'm glad the owner is trying to do the right thing and get the horse back now but it's a shame for the horse that it had to spend any time in those circumstances at all. If people took the commitment of owning a horse more seriously there would be less opportunity for Idiots like those in the video to make a living (and let me be clear I would never tire of kicking people like these, they are wholly to blame for the appauling treatment that poor animal has recieved). 
Something is only worth what someone is prepared to pay for it and this example only highlights that many many animals through no fault of their own end up in crappy situations. I can see you are genuinely upset and care what happens to this horse and I'm not trying to be inflammatory or take a pop at the owner, I'm sure that everyone went into this with the best of intentions. It just saddens me that so many people view a living sentient creature as disposable and the opportunity to turn a profit.
I've read this back and I've tried to word it very carefully. I'm honestly not trying to wind anyone up or point fingers about this particular case but I do think this typifies a problem the horse industry has and is one that many people contribute to by breeding or buying horses they are not intending to keep.


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## Tiffany (26 November 2012)

The horse seemed to be bucking because the rider was slapping him  I know we don't know the full story but if the horse was on his last chance that's not the way to be treating him, he was trying to get away from the whip.

Bully riders like that really p--s me off


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## Equilibrium Ireland (26 November 2012)

It's no secret me and Mr. EI start horses for a living. I gave him the background on TicToc. Such as 4yo. Been lightly backed, was off 6 weeks then sent here to continue training. I said this video was of him about an hour after arriving. He heard and saw the first whip crack and said "WTF", are they serious?" More explicatives and what did that wee baby do to deserve that? Then he said send poor baby to me! 

At any rate, I'm gobsmacked at the lack of consideration for this or any horse these people seem to have. They need a new career. They need to walk away from live animals. This is not how you start babies. This is not how you want a horse to begin a 10 plus year of a career. Probably longer. I have no words really. I'm very saddened by it all and I know first hand this crap exists everywhere. 

By the way don't know if this is true or not but hubby said that if this rider works in racing at all, he can be banned for this type of abuse. 

Terri


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## kerilli (26 November 2012)

Until horse is safe pls say nothing more.


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## EQUISCENE (26 November 2012)

What a genuine horse Tic Toc appears to be I know many who would kick out for good measure after that treatment when finally getting rid of such an appalling jockey!


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## TrasaM (26 November 2012)

Thank you to the OP and whoever managed to save the video and to the poster who traced the original owners. A job well done.


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## FfionWinnie (26 November 2012)

I hope to god the horse gets back to the former owner and if those low lives don't let it go back then we will need to launch a campaign...

For the record I counted 15 smacks minimum in 50 seconds. 

Hearing the rest of the story I am utterly gutted for that poor horse.


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## Nightmare before Christmas (26 November 2012)

http://www.horsemart.co.uk/news/mum_and_daughter_stole_from_stables/76

May find that of interest...


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## ponypilotmum (26 November 2012)

badgermyers said:



http://www.horsemart.co.uk/news/mum_and_daughter_stole_from_stables/76

May find that of interest...
		
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Old news I'm afraid. 

I just pray that finally justice will be done for the many many horses who have suffered at these hands, including mine.


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## Nightmare before Christmas (26 November 2012)

ponypilotmum said:



			Old news I'm afraid. 

I just pray that finally justice will be done for the many many horses who have suffered at these hands, including mine.
		
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I know its old news! Im just saying the more you look into that lot the more dodgy they are!


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## kerilli (26 November 2012)

The horse is now safe.

Two important things:   
From the official Bill Stud Facebook page: 
"The Billy Stud has never had any direct involvement with imperial horses ltd and has no association with them what so ever. This is the only official Billy Stud Facebook page."

Also:
"Imperial Equines based in West Sussex would like to officially state that we have never had any involvement whatsoever with imperial horses ltd and has had no association with them at any point. We feel a need to clarify our position as we unfortunately have a very similar name, in view of what has recently come to light. We hope this clears up any future confusion that may arise. Regards Sam Adams and Jodi Paris Streeter."

The finger should not be pointed at the wrong people, obviously.


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## Equilibrium Ireland (26 November 2012)

Thanks for all you've done OP. 

Terri


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## Amymay (26 November 2012)

Glad to here that the horse is now safe. I hope the owners takes this further, and also update is sometime on how the horse is.


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## magic104 (26 November 2012)

ajn1610 said:



			I'm sorry that this has affected you personally Magic, it is really sad. I'm not totally clear on the point you are making though? 
I understand that the owner bought the horse with the intention of producing it and selling on and that for one reason or another this didn't work out. 

He was/is friends with someone who has a young daughter that was eventing his other horse.  The friend persuaded him to purchase this lad as a possible eventer for her * yes possibly sell on.  He only made 15hh


However the owner doesn't seem from your description to have taken much interest in what happened to the horse. It seems like they allowed a third party to sell it on to someone else without knowing who they are or checking them out at all. 

The 3rd party was the woman who said she would help start him * have her daughter event him.  He bought the horse in good faith he sent him to them to further his education which they failed to do.  This put him in a difficult situation.


I believe that when you breed/buy/import an animal you are responsible for it. If it turns out not to be suitable for you then it's your responsibility to find it a job of work, produce it to a point where it has a chance and do your best to find it a suitable home. 

Sorry but that is exactly what he tired to do, is he really responsible for someone going back on their agreement?


I'm glad the owner is trying to do the right thing and get the horse back now but it's a shame for the horse that it had to spend any time in those circumstances at all. If people took the commitment of owning a horse more seriously there would be less opportunity for Idiots like those in the video to make a living (and let me be clear I would never tire of kicking people like these, they are wholly to blame for the appauling treatment that poor animal has recieved). 

In this case I do not think it a fair comment.  Also as soon as he knew it was his horse he sorted it there and then.


Something is only worth what someone is prepared to pay for it and this example only highlights that many many animals through no fault of their own end up in crappy situations. I can see you are genuinely upset and care what happens to this horse and I'm not trying to be inflammatory or take a pop at the owner, I'm sure that everyone went into this with the best of intentions. It just saddens me that so many people view a living sentient creature as disposable and the opportunity to turn a profit.
I've read this back and I've tried to word it very carefully. I'm honestly not trying to wind anyone up or point fingers about this particular case but I do think this typifies a problem the horse industry has and is one that many people contribute to by breeding or buying horses they are not intending to keep.
		
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Where do you draw the line at responsiblity?  Trust me if Tic Toc's owner had any idea this would happen he would rather have put the horse down.  He is a young horse there is nothing that we are aware of that makes him unsuitable to find a new home.  My daughter found him very easy to deal with.  People can not always justify the cost of a horse just in case it MIGHT end up with morons.  He trusted his friend to find this youngster  a new home, or so I am led to believe.  I know that he was for sale earlier in the year because he was let down.  He was started, returned to them * again they did not carry on with his education due to time constraints.  At some point you have to cut your losses, not at the sake of the animal, but either you sell or you PTS.


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## magic104 (26 November 2012)

PS
I think this will go further as the horse was on his way to the vets to be photographed.  Yes he has weal marks * the video is further evidence so I expect some form of comeuppence.


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## SpottedCat (26 November 2012)

amymay said:



			Glad to here that the horse is now safe. I hope the owners takes this further, and also update is sometime on how the horse is.
		
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Having just spoken to the owner, they do intend to do just that Amymay, but obviously the horse is the first priority. 

This really isn't the fault of anyone except the perpetrators, and it is unfair to suggest that it is - how many times on here do we read that once you've sold a horse then that's that - and how many times do we read about people being duped as buyers? If it can happen as a buyer then why not as a seller?


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## Amymay (26 November 2012)

Good, magic


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## 1Lucie (26 November 2012)

Errrr how is this funny? 


That poor horse looks petrified! Like a rodeo bull! They are a big horse dealer if im correct??! Jeez i do wonder sometimes...


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## asterid (26 November 2012)

magic104 said:



			PS
I think this will go further as the horse was on his way to the vets to be photographed.  Yes he has weal marks * the video is further evidence so I expect some form of comeuppence.
		
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And Kerilli, please keep us updated on the horses recovery and the impending court case (fingers crossed) for IH.


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## Ibblebibble (26 November 2012)

the attention this i getting is certainly working, their website appears to be down!


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## Tai.Ni.Po.Ni (26 November 2012)

can someone pm me the website pretty please?


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## Shutterbug (26 November 2012)

Don't ya just love the power of the internet - first posted at lunchtime and two facebook pages and a website are gone already.  Hopefully she will not do anymore business although I fear she will pop up somewhere else at some point - even my non horsey OH was astonished at the guys riding - poor thing, I do hope he is ok and moves on to better things.  Blooming heck I would take him myself if I was closer - he looks lovely.


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## stencilface (26 November 2012)

I've read this thread all day, but not had anything constructive to add, but just like to sy I'm impressed as ever with the speed with which this Internet world interacts and affects people in real life. There really is no escape 

Didn't comment earlier as tbh, I didn't find the footage *that* shocking, you see horses get similar treatment at affiliated competitions week in, week out. That doesn't make it right obviously, it's just not a shock to me, glad the horse is on the road to better things, looks like a nice sort


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## ajn1610 (26 November 2012)

Magic104, I understand that sometimes circumstances change and I'm sure the owner did the best they could at the time. The only people I blame for the horse being abused in the way it was are the 'dealers' in question. 
I was very careful about how a worded my post because I don't want to further upset people who are experiencing a difficult situation. Clearly the owner was not kept informed about where the horse was going to end up and has found themselves in awful place due to someone they trusted actions. Where to draw the line at responsibility is an interesting question. I wasn't necessarily speaking specifically about this individual case which I obviously don't know the details of, but about the issues it highlights. It's not particularly helpful for anyone to get into shoulda coulda woulda territory The point I was trying to make is a general one that I wish we all, as horsey people, demonstrated a bit more restraint about how horses are bred/brought/imported and then there would be less opportunity for horses to end up suffering at the hands of unscrupulous, ill educated or wilfully ignorant  and cruel individuals like those in the video. I hope you understand what I'm trying to put across.
I'm really glad the outcome has been positive for this horse and he is safe and sound. Fingers crossed that the people involved get what is coming to them.


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## FfionWinnie (26 November 2012)

I am so so glad to hear poor Tic Tock is back with his previous owner. I hope there is justice for him.  He looks the sort to forgive and forget, poor lad. I hope he is ok with fair handling. 

Incidentally I emailed WHW last night with all the info and they did not even reply


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## popsdosh (26 November 2012)

Right I am now ready to break cover so as to speak.
I was the owner of this unfortunate young man and I am pleased to inform you he is now mine again and at home eating his tea! luckily he is totally unaware of his notoriety otherwise his ego would be even more inflated!!!!
Just to put a few things straight,The decision to sell him was a purely unselfish one in that I wished to give the horse an opportunity to reach his potential as I did not feel at this time I could finance what was involved as I have other horses as well.What he was sold for did not cover 10% of my financial input into him but sometimes you have to take the knock and think whats best for the horse in these bad times in the horse market.The lady who sold him on my behalf did so in good faith having been recommended these people by the original breeder.We have all been very cautious with vetting potential buyers for the horse and there was nothing outwardly that would lead you to believe this situation would arise they had a website and seemed to be selling some reasonable horses ,there is only so much you can do .I feel also that the people who have been looking after him up until now have not been represented fairly in that He was being sold for the reason stated and not because I had any problem with the way he was looked after in fact he was always kept to a high standard and I would never say any different.
I do not wish to say to much about what led to me having him back .I will say that when I was alerted by somebody who knows the horse at about 11am there was never any doubt he would be back with me by nightfall and this I am pleased to say has occurred and that not happening was never an option! I am not ashamed to say when I checked out the video was actually him I cried( and thats coming from a hardened farmer) He was not in this world for that Abuse!! Thats all I can say at this stage as other agencies are involved and I do not wish to compromise any action.I can assure that these other agencies have acted very quickly and I was very surprised to actually bump into them when picking him up.
I do actually know the notoriety of the individual behind this business,and would never knowingly have sold the horse to them under any circumstances and neither would the person acting on my behalf who holds the welfare of any horse in her care to be paramount.
I can assure everybody that I will never put another one of my horses in such a compromised position and feel totally shocked and saddened by what he had to endure.
Please anybody who says maybe the horse needed it please look at the vids in the original post here and then try and justify your comments.http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=574405
 how many of you would have taken a 4yo which you had been told had not been ridden for 6weeks straight off the lorry clip his head fully out and neck(this should tell you something about his temperament) and then chuck a saddle on and give him that sort of abuse.
That is all I wish to say at this stage and I hope you understand I feel a bit numb about all this .if anybody feels they need to know more please PM me and I will answer as best I can rather than the speculation that can very soon hide the truth!!!


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## magic104 (26 November 2012)

ajn1610 said:



			Magic104, I understand that sometimes circumstances change and I'm sure the owner did the best they could at the time. The only people I blame for the horse being abused in the way it was are the 'dealers' in question. 
I was very careful about how a worded my post because I don't want to further upset people who are experiencing a difficult situation. Clearly the owner was not kept informed about where the horse was going to end up and has found themselves in awful place due to someone they trusted actions. Where to draw the line at responsibility is an interesting question. I wasn't necessarily speaking specifically about this individual case which I obviously don't know the details of, but about the issues it highlights. It's not particularly helpful for anyone to get into shoulda coulda woulda territory The point I was trying to make is a general one that I wish we all, as horsey people, demonstrated a bit more restraint about how horses are bred/brought/imported and then there would be less opportunity for horses to end up suffering at the hands of unscrupulous, ill educated or wilfully ignorant  and cruel individuals like those in the video. I hope you understand what I'm trying to put across.
I'm really glad the outcome has been positive for this horse and he is safe and sound. Fingers crossed that the people involved get what is coming to them.
		
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The where you draw the line was general not in relation to this case.  I see horses being sold for peanuts to end up who knows where.  Like others I see aged horses, in their 20's being passed on, horses with issues etc.  A month ago I had to make up my mind what I was going to do with 2 mares.  I had spent a previous month going over * over the possiblities.  In the end I bit the bullet (excuse the pun) had them PTS.  It was very difficult as one mare I have owned for 8yrs * we have come through a lot.  But I had to do what was best for them, * that was not to pass them on.  My mare gave me a lovely foal who is doing well in dressage to Nov level.  But she had no recorded breeding * had occult sarcoids (which she developed while trying to get in foal * were not diagnoised till much later).  Being out of work she slowly reverted to the old bag I bought 8yrs ago.  She was not staying sound long enough to bring back into work so the circle began.  The other one had damage from a foot abcess that was taking months to heal in the meantime it was affecting the tendon in the other leg * on top of that she developed ring worm!  She was not a suitable candidate for a broodmare being what they call a dirty mare.  She was not too badly bred but had not stayed sound in racing.  As I said took a month * all I can say is neither suffered.  I wish circumstances had been different.  The 2nd mare I might add came to me with a bruised foot that did not respond as well as you would have expected.  I drew my line, but for mine it meant the end!


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## Amymay (26 November 2012)

Thankyou popsdosh for updating us keep us posted when you can.


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## FfionWinnie (26 November 2012)

Popsdosh so glad he is back with you. Please will you let us know the outcome when you can?


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## joeanne (26 November 2012)

popsdosh said:



			Right I am now ready to break cover so as to speak.
I was the owner of this unfortunate young man and I am pleased to inform you he is now mine again and at home eating his tea! luckily he is totally unaware of his notoriety otherwise his ego would be even more inflated!!!!
Just to put a few things straight,The decision to sell him was a purely unselfish one in that I wished to give the horse an opportunity to reach his potential as I did not feel at this time I could finance what was involved as I have other horses as well.What he was sold for did not cover 10% of my financial input into him but sometimes you have to take the knock and think whats best for the horse in these bad times in the horse market.The lady who sold him on my behalf did so in good faith having been recommended these people by the original breeder.We have all been very cautious with vetting potential buyers for the horse and there was nothing outwardly that would lead you to believe this situation would arise they had a website and seemed to be selling some reasonable horses ,there is only so much you can do .I feel also that the people who have been looking after him up until now have not been represented fairly in that He was being sold for the reason stated and not because I had any problem with the way he was looked after in fact he was always kept to a high standard and I would never say any different.
I do not wish to say to much about what led to me having him back .I will say that when I was alerted by somebody who knows the horse at about 11am there was never any doubt he would be back with me by nightfall and this I am pleased to say has occurred and that not happening was never an option! I am not ashamed to say when I checked out the video was actually him I cried( and thats coming from a hardened farmer) He was not in this world for that Abuse!! Thats all I can say at this stage as other agencies are involved and I do not wish to compromise any action.I can assure that these other agencies have acted very quickly and I was very surprised to actually bump into them when picking him up.
I do actually know the notoriety of the individual behind this business,and would never knowingly have sold the horse to them under any circumstances and neither would the person acting on my behalf who holds the welfare of any horse in her care to be paramount.
I can assure everybody that I will never put another one of my horses in such a compromised position and feel totally shocked and saddened by what he had to endure.
Please anybody who says maybe the horse needed it please look at the vids in the original post here and then try and justify your comments.http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=574405
 how many of you would have taken a 4yo which you had been told had not been ridden for 6weeks straight off the lorry clip his head fully out and neck(this should tell you something about his temperament) and then chuck a saddle on and give him that sort of abuse.
That is all I wish to say at this stage and I hope you understand I feel a bit numb about all this .if anybody feels they need to know more please PM me and I will answer as best I can rather than the speculation that can very soon hide the truth!!!
		
Click to expand...

I am so pleased you have your boy back.
I hope the scum in question get everything and more.........SHE certainly deserves it!


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## popsdosh (26 November 2012)

ajn1610 said:



			Magic104, I understand that sometimes circumstances change and I'm sure the owner did the best they could at the time. The only people I blame for the horse being abused in the way it was are the 'dealers' in question. 
I was very careful about how a worded my post because I don't want to further upset people who are experiencing a difficult situation. Clearly the owner was not kept informed about where the horse was going to end up and has found themselves in awful place due to someone they trusted actions. Where to draw the line at responsibility is an interesting question. I wasn't necessarily speaking specifically about this individual case which I obviously don't know the details of, but about the issues it highlights. It's not particularly helpful for anyone to get into shoulda coulda woulda territory The point I was trying to make is a general one that I wish we all, as horsey people, demonstrated a bit more restraint about how horses are bred/brought/imported and then there would be less opportunity for horses to end up suffering at the hands of unscrupulous, ill educated or wilfully ignorant  and cruel individuals like those in the video. I hope you understand what I'm trying to put across.
I'm really glad the outcome has been positive for this horse and he is safe and sound. Fingers crossed that the people involved get what is coming to them.
		
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Please feel assured that I place no responsibility for this with the person acting on my behalf.The horse in question is a 3/4 brother to an intermediate horse that is highly thought of so I dont think that indiscriminate breeding is a factor merely an example of the collapse of the horse market in general ,just remember he was conceived well before this drop in values and he ended up being sold for a fraction of the investment I had made. It can happen to the best at times!


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## Goldenstar (26 November 2012)

Popsdosh I am so happy he is back with you , not everyone can keep every horse they have through their hands for ever that's an unrealistic view of the world and most horses sold go on to good homes and have good lives .
Dealers do a job that's needs doing matching horses to owners and giving buyers an other route to finding horses on top of word of mouth and using horse and hound and the other websites it would be unfair to tar all dealer by judging them by worse practise.
I can understand you feel stunned but you have stepped in and done the right thing here good luck with the horse in the future.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (26 November 2012)

popsdosh said:



			Right I am now ready to break cover so as to speak.
I was the owner of this unfortunate young man and I am pleased to inform you he is now mine again and at home eating his tea! luckily he is totally unaware of his notoriety otherwise his ego would be even more inflated!!!!
Just to put a few things straight,The decision to sell him was a purely unselfish one in that I wished to give the horse an opportunity to reach his potential as I did not feel at this time I could finance what was involved as I have other horses as well.What he was sold for did not cover 10% of my financial input into him but sometimes you have to take the knock and think whats best for the horse in these bad times in the horse market.The lady who sold him on my behalf did so in good faith having been recommended these people by the original breeder.We have all been very cautious with vetting potential buyers for the horse and there was nothing outwardly that would lead you to believe this situation would arise they had a website and seemed to be selling some reasonable horses ,there is only so much you can do .I feel also that the people who have been looking after him up until now have not been represented fairly in that He was being sold for the reason stated and not because I had any problem with the way he was looked after in fact he was always kept to a high standard and I would never say any different.
I do not wish to say to much about what led to me having him back .I will say that when I was alerted by somebody who knows the horse at about 11am there was never any doubt he would be back with me by nightfall and this I am pleased to say has occurred and that not happening was never an option! I am not ashamed to say when I checked out the video was actually him I cried( and thats coming from a hardened farmer) He was not in this world for that Abuse!! Thats all I can say at this stage as other agencies are involved and I do not wish to compromise any action.I can assure that these other agencies have acted very quickly and I was very surprised to actually bump into them when picking him up.
I do actually know the notoriety of the individual behind this business,and would never knowingly have sold the horse to them under any circumstances and neither would the person acting on my behalf who holds the welfare of any horse in her care to be paramount.
I can assure everybody that I will never put another one of my horses in such a compromised position and feel totally shocked and saddened by what he had to endure.
Please anybody who says maybe the horse needed it please look at the vids in the original post here and then try and justify your comments.http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=574405
 how many of you would have taken a 4yo which you had been told had not been ridden for 6weeks straight off the lorry clip his head fully out and neck(this should tell you something about his temperament) and then chuck a saddle on and give him that sort of abuse.
That is all I wish to say at this stage and I hope you understand I feel a bit numb about all this .if anybody feels they need to know more please PM me and I will answer as best I can rather than the speculation that can very soon hide the truth!!!
		
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SOOOO glad he is back with you and happy.

I hope that the proper authorities take note of all this and this poor youn g man goes perhaps to someone within this community. If I had the cash I would have taken him.

Hopefully he suffers no after effects of this treatment. Well done you in getting him back where he belongs x


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## Shutterbug (26 November 2012)

Thank goodness he has been returned to you - hopefully they haven't caused too much damage.  Do not feel you have to justify yourself here popsdosh, at the end of the day we can only do our best but sadly it is often others who let us down.

If you do however need a home for him and are going past Glasgow just drop him off with me


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## Clofox (26 November 2012)

That is awful poor pony


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## emma.is (26 November 2012)

So glad he's safe with you now and looks a lovely sort, says a lot about his character to endure that abuse for as long as he did.

Were there more horses there? What about those poor wee mites


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## jester_ben (26 November 2012)

Disgusting behaviour, how dare they. Hope he has found a good home (sorry, not a follower, yet, will check back on messages now..)

And IH ltd has seemed to have jumped off from the planet...


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## magic104 (26 November 2012)

Same arena different name - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5jiP40wDL4*feature=plcp


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## ihatework (26 November 2012)

jester_ben said:



			And IH ltd has seemed to have jumped off from the planet...
		
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Shame it wasn't off the top of a skyscraper without a parachute ...

Popsdosh, so glad you have your boy back. I'm keeping everything crossed he can forgive us humans!


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## ajn1610 (26 November 2012)

popsdosh said:



			Please feel assured that I place no responsibility for this with the person acting on my behalf.The horse in question is a 3/4 brother to an intermediate horse that is highly thought of so I dont think that indiscriminate breeding is a factor merely an example of the collapse of the horse market in general ,just remember he was conceived well before this drop in values and he ended up being sold for a fraction of the investment I had made. It can happen to the best at times!
		
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Popsdosh, thank you for keeping us all updated. I'm really happy that you've got your horse back and hopefully he'll soon recover. I hope you understand I was making a general point based on what had been previously posted and was trying not to speak specifically about your situation. It seems like a lot of people were taken in by these individuals and lets hope that as a result of this they get what they deserve. Thank goodness someone was quick to copy their awful video and it got brought to light so quickly.


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## galaxy (26 November 2012)

Popdosh - so gald you have him back.  He looks such a lovely horse I just cannot understand why someone would do that to him.

I have pointed this thread out to the girl who copied and posted the video on You Tube and told her the result of her actions. Maybe she will come on.


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## angelish (26 November 2012)

poor poor horse  
so pleased he is back with his old owners ,there is no excuse for beating any horse like that let alone a baby that hadn't deserved it ,really hope those horrible people get what they deserve 

if my current project horse had already gone to his new home i'd have had him in a flash but i said i'd keep him till spring  really hope he gets the home he deserves


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## Jesstickle (26 November 2012)

O God popsdosh. You poor sod. What a stress. 

Thank goodness for HHO. I'm so pleased to know he is back home. Wishing you, and him, all the best


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## silvertemper (26 November 2012)

PopDosh

Thank Christ for that, so sorry as well x x x


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## popsdosh (26 November 2012)

ajn1610 said:



			Popsdosh, thank you for keeping us all updated. I'm really happy that you've got your horse back and hopefully he'll soon recover. I hope you understand I was making a general point based on what had been previously posted and was trying not to speak specifically about your situation. It seems like a lot of people were taken in by these individuals and lets hope that as a result of this they get what they deserve. Thank goodness someone was quick to copy their awful video and it got brought to light so quickly.
		
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Sadly you were making a point that I am totally in agreement with ,I will have nothing to do with indiscriminate breeding full stop.He deserves a good home and had no interest at what I thought was realistic so hoped by almost giving away to find a good home for him.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (26 November 2012)

Hmm the other vid posted on the previous page seems to be VERY involved in all this as well.

Removing all traces of yourself just proves your guilt IMO. I be they are ALL cursing putting that video up.

Only way to stop people like this is for people NOT to do business with them no matter how attractive the price or horse.


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## katastrophykat (26 November 2012)

Popsdosh- good decision swiftly executed, best outcome from a bad situation... And after this thread I wonder if a H and H'er won't find space for him...! He's a lovely looking lad, I wish you all the best sorting him out and finding a new home


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## MegaBeast (26 November 2012)

So glad this story has a happy ending, thank goodness someone recognised the horse! 

Dare I ask what happens now popdosh with tic toc?  He looks a useful sort.  Far too nice to be unwanted.

How odd that they clipped out his head and neck immediately after arrival.


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## joeanne (26 November 2012)

magic104 said:



			Same arena different name - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5jiP40wDL4*feature=plcp

Click to expand...

Thats is her *cough* FWB....
Upsurped his wife and moved herself and her kids into his house.
He is as slimey as she is.....


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## Fantasy_World (26 November 2012)

joeanne said:



			I am so pleased you have your boy back.
I hope the scum in question get everything and more.........SHE certainly deserves it!
		
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^^^^^^ this x


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## asterid (26 November 2012)

Popsdosh, firstly, you are so brave to come on here and tell your story. I think all of us will support you 100%. Huge credit for going there and getting your horse back. 

Secondly, we are all now fully aware nationwide who these people are and where they are, so think it will be very hard for them to keep trading even under a different name. 

Please keep us all updated on Tick Tock's progress, think we have all fallen in love with him!

I am sure there are several HHO's that would have him in a jiffy and give him a fab home for life.


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## popsdosh (26 November 2012)

MegaBeast said:



			So glad this story has a happy ending, thank goodness someone recognised the horse! 

Dare I ask what happens now popdosh with tic toc?  He looks a useful sort.  Far too nice to be unwanted.

How odd that they clipped out his head and neck immediately after arrival.
		
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 I am going to try and get my breath back and then decide were to go.I had a plan A which involved a well known character from H*H forums but was struggling to go that extra mile financially.However may need to think of this again as he would have every chance to fulfill his potential and whats money anyhow?With his breeding he is halfway there but an unfashionable height at 4yrs of age at nine with points I would be snowed under for him.


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## Paint Me Proud (26 November 2012)

See if you can work out what about this video from them disturbs me...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iodtIJx_x7Y


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## joeanne (26 November 2012)

Have to say....I freaking LOVE his name! 
He would be an extremely useful sort for a good, competent, competitive teenager!


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## Nightmare before Christmas (26 November 2012)

Paint Me Proud said:



			See if you can work out what about this video from them disturbs me...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iodtIJx_x7Y

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Cant find any? Bar its the same place


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## Marydoll (26 November 2012)

I am so relieved hes back home with you popdosh and im not surprised that video brought you to tears, he looks such a lovely wee guy and to much of a gentleman to boot the eejit that he ditched into next week.
He's a very lucky lad to be rescued from them.
A narrow escape for him, yaaaaay hes safe, this rescue's brought me to tears


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## Paint Me Proud (26 November 2012)

badgermyers said:



			Cant find any? Bar its the same place
		
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perhaps jumping a tractor? Maybe that's just my none showjumping head though.


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## Nightmare before Christmas (26 November 2012)

Paint Me Proud said:



			perhaps jumping a tractor? Maybe that's just my none showjumping head though. 

Click to expand...

I see the dangers but I have also jumped some weird 'fillers' in the past


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## Elsiecat (26 November 2012)

Paint Me Proud said:



			perhaps jumping a tractor? Maybe that's just my none showjumping head though. 

Click to expand...

Thats what I thought! How dangerous if there was an accident


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## Paint Me Proud (26 November 2012)

badgermyers said:



			I see the dangers but I have also jumped some weird 'fillers' in the past 

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lol, my bad then  I am just a bit health and safety conscious sometimes!


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## CatStew (26 November 2012)

I watched this video earlier when I was at work without sound and totally disgusted. I've just watched it again and that woman laughing made me feel physically sick, and the strike noises from the blokes whip.  Poor horse  glad he's back home again now though and hope he's not got any physical or mental issues as a result of these horrible people!  I'll follow his updates with interest


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## TED2010 (26 November 2012)

Disgusting people.  Hope they get what they deserve in life and come to a sticky end 

So glad the horse has been recovered and will hopefully get over that ordeal with some careful and gentle handling.  I dread to think how many others were treated in this way without videos reaching the Internet. I would like to think that the spread of this on the Internet has done enough serious damage to these people to stop them having anything more to do with horses.  At the least, they will see just how many people in this country think their practices are a complete abhorrent disgrace and may decide it is not the way to behave in future!? (Probably highly unlikely as I doubt scum like this will ever change).


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## Sags_Deer (26 November 2012)

Not watched the video otherwise id want to whip there arses and more, I know K is a very good horse person and trust her views.
It makes you realise how we should bring in some sort of exam system/.owner exam to pass to be able to own a horse and let alone be a dealer.
Dreadful people out there makes me very angry.


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## Bubbles (26 November 2012)

I'm stunned that these people are still going under one of their many different guises. Absolutely disgusting. Popdosh I hope the horse has no lasting damage


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## alwaysbroke (26 November 2012)

Have just caught up with this, cant find the words to describe those horrible people.

Popsdosh so pleased that you have Tic Toc back, he looks such a lovely boy, hope he recovers quickly from this and they get their just desserts.


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## Dizzyblonde99 (26 November 2012)

Haven't read all the posts so forgive me if this has already been posted, is this the same horse? If so looks like a real sweety, feel so sorry for the horse. Hope they throw the book at them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlQ7y7utR7I


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## magic104 (26 November 2012)

Dizzyblonde99 said:



			Haven't read all the posts so forgive me if this has already been posted, is this the same horse? If so looks like a real sweety, feel so sorry for the horse. Hope they throw the book at them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlQ7y7utR7I

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Yes


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## kerilli (26 November 2012)

popsdosh, i am so very very glad that he is back with you, i can't tell you how relieved i am and i know i speak for hundreds (possibly lots more) who've seen the vid on Facebook and on here. thank you for the updates and for your actions. 
absolutely not your fault nor the fault of former keepers who were hoodwinked. the important thing is that it only happened once and that as long as he is well treated from now on it'll soon be a distant memory. if he goes to who i think he's going to, that'll be a wonderful option for him and give him the best possible start.    

galaxy, please please thank your friend who had the wit and knowledge to save that video, and the courage to repost it. please could you ask her how on earth she did it, it would be a useful skill to have, i suspect.

i hope these despicable people become notorious for this and that people will stay away and keep their horses away from them. as said above, why be involved with horses if you hate them and treat them so despicably?
i cannot begin to tell you how angry it makes me that people like this make money out of horses. sick. it's worse than puppy farming for exploitation, greed, and cruelty. i very sincerely hope the ONLY repercussions from this are bad ones on the perpetrators.
popsdosh, please let us know if you need any support in getting the RSPCA etc to take this seriously. a huge number of us were horrified by what we saw on that video and would gladly say so and explain why if necessary.


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## dominobrown (26 November 2012)

Dizzyblonde99 said:



			Haven't read all the posts so forgive me if this has already been posted, is this the same horse? If so looks like a real sweety, feel so sorry for the horse. Hope they throw the book at them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlQ7y7utR7I

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He was going really nicely there.


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## E13 (26 November 2012)

I saw this earlier - so glad you have him back, do keep us updated on both his future and the justice in terms of these awful individuals. Hopefully he will bounce back from this, fingers crossed


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## magic104 (26 November 2012)

kerilli said:



			popsdosh, i am so very very glad that he is back with you, i can't tell you how relieved i am and i know i speak for hundreds (possibly lots more) who've seen the vid on Facebook and on here. thank you for the updates and for your actions. 
absolutely not your fault nor the fault of former keepers who were hoodwinked. the important thing is that it only happened once and that as long as he is well treated from now on it'll soon be a distant memory. if he goes to who i think he's going to, that'll be a wonderful option for him and give him the best possible start.    

galaxy, please please thank your friend who had the wit and knowledge to save that video, and the courage to repost it. please could you ask her how on earth she did it, it would be a useful skill to have, i suspect.

i hope these despicable people become notorious for this and that people will stay away and keep their horses away from them. as said above, why be involved with horses if you hate them and treat them so despicably?
i cannot begin to tell you how angry it makes me that people like this make money out of horses. sick. it's worse than puppy farming for exploitation, greed, and cruelty. i very sincerely hope the ONLY repercussions from this are bad ones on the perpetrators.
popsdosh, please let us know if you need any support in getting the RSPCA etc to take this seriously. a huge number of us were horrified by what we saw on that video and would gladly say so and explain why if necessary.
		
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Ditto for once FB came up trumps * did some much needed good


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## Sparkles (26 November 2012)

For downloading videos off youtube...you can do that if you have real player downloader or freecorder or similar programme on your computer. When you watch the video, it comes up with a little pop up box saying 'download with real player' or similar type thing for freecorder etc


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## JanetGeorge (26 November 2012)

Paint Me Proud said:



			See if you can work out what about this video from them disturbs me...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iodtIJx_x7Y

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Using a compact tractor as a filler??  Stupid and dangerous thing to do. 
Making a brave horse jump big fences with a throttle-hold on his mouth?


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## TarrSteps (26 November 2012)

1Lucie said:



			That poor horse looks petrified! Like a rodeo bull!
		
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Just to be pedantic, since we're on the subject of animal cruelty, GOOD bucking bulls in GOOD rodeos (so the kind you see on tv) are not petrified or tortured.  They are actually bred for the job, well looked after, and highly monitored, more so than many competition horses.  They all live together in pens and are generally good with people and easy going outside of their work "seconds".

I know this is in no way pertinent to this thread but it does go to finding out what is REALLY going on, not just seeing a tiny bit of something and thinking it's okay or it's not on that front.  I'm sure whoever put the horse in the hands of those people really did think it would be okay because that's what they wanted to think and were led to believe.  Hopefully this is out there enough now that people in the future will have more accurate information.


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## madmav (26 November 2012)

What happened to the poor horse, think she calls him Tick-Tock, does anyone know? I hate that woman doing the filming almost as much as that whip-wielding thug on board. Do wish he'd planted him much, much harder.


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## magic104 (26 November 2012)

Meant to add on my last post,thank you Admin for letting this thread stay.  I think cruelty and abuse needs to be outed, otherwise we are just as bad as those inflicting it.  So thank you for letting it run its course.


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## JanetGeorge (26 November 2012)

magic104 said:



			Meant to add on my last post,thank you Admin for letting this thread stay.  I think cruelty and abuse needs to be outed, otherwise we are just as bad as those inflicting it.  So thank you for letting it run its course.
		
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Ditto, ditto, ditto!

And very happy and relieved that his owner acted SO quickly to get him back!  He looked a very honest chap - only bucked when literally FORCED to by that a***!  I'm sure with just a little time and patience he'll be a VERY nice young horse for a smaller lady rider!


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## magic104 (26 November 2012)

madmav said:



			What happened to the poor horse, think she calls him Tick-Tock, does anyone know? I hate that woman doing the filming almost as much as that whip-wielding thug on board. Do wish he'd planted him much, much harder.
		
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They were given their money back and the owner bought him home


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## popsdosh (27 November 2012)

Thanks TS I owned up on here having sold him to try and show it can happen to anybody ,we have tried to be as careful as possible but these people were recommended by the breeder.I do know the man behind the female front to the company and would never dream of selling to him ,however the trading name changes so often!
Also to be honest when selling a horse for what he ended up at I normally would be concerned more of the other end of the spectrum with abuse by lack of knowledge!


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## TarrSteps (27 November 2012)

popsdosh said:



			Thanks TS I owned up on here having sold him to try and show it can happen to anybody ,we have tried to be as careful as possible but these people were recommended by the breeder.I do know the man behind the female front to the company and would never dream of selling to him ,however the trading name changes so often!
Also to be honest when selling a horse for what he ended up at I normally would be concerned more of the other end of the spectrum with abuse by lack of knowledge!
		
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And I think it is really fantastic that you have done so - today could not have been a pleasant day for you!


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## Saratoga (27 November 2012)

Just caught up with this thread. Very relieved to hear he's safe and sound!

And I don't have the words for what I think about the two people in the video....


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## Oldenburg27 (27 November 2012)

Just gobsmacked I really am, So happy the horse is now in safe hands and the people in this Video pay for what they have done!!!


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## popsdosh (27 November 2012)

I just wish to thank everybody who has sent messages either via the open forum or via PM .Yesterday was not one of my better days .I am so grateful to the person who re posted the you tube video and very relieved to have been able to put right as best I can what he had to suffer.To my mind it says a lot about the people involved that the clip ever made it into the public domain but thankfully it did!
 I will find it difficult to respond to all the messages I have received as we are very busy on the farm ,and lost a whole day yesterday!I am so grateful for every bodies support and this shows the time when these forums have a real value.Hopefully the weight of pressure from the internet has maybe shutdown a dodgy operation or at the very least given them a sharp kick in the teeth.
I will as best I can keep you updated with Tick tocks progress.He is quite a resilient little character and his ego usually gets the better of him so hopefully it will soon be forgotten. Thanks again!!!


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## Partoow (27 November 2012)

Wow popsdosh I   pleased you have managed to act, I like, many was someone who reposted the video yesterday morning to a lot of my friends ( all horsey on FB)having got it from a very horsey contact, great that the Internet can be used for good ! Interestingly their web page is now down! 
Good luck with him and please let us know how you're all doing! I think he's got a few fans!


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## ArcticFox (27 November 2012)

OMG! that video is dreadful.  

How can anyone who thinks they are professional produces find that funny.

Glad to hear he is now out of there.


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## Luci07 (27 November 2012)

So glad he is safe and out of that situation.  My YO has had a few babies sent to her that have been given a very bad start and they all turned round into really good horses. The worst 4 year old took a bit of time but he has suddenly clicked and she thinks he will really be going places next year eventing. Another little mare was sort of on her last chance as was a bucker etc. Back to basics, rebacked her and mare is now safe and secure enough that a 13 year old now rides her. So damage can be undone!


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## kerilli (27 November 2012)

If anyone wants to report the video, the page to register to report it online with the RSPCA is here 
https://www.rspca.org.uk/login?p_p_id=58*_58_redirect=/myrspca

I hope that the more people that report it, the more chance that something long-term will be done about these people. Tick Tock is safe from further VILE treatment, but other horses won't be so lucky.


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## Amymay (27 November 2012)

kerilli said:



			If anyone wants to report the video, the page to register to report it online with the RSPCA is here 
https://www.rspca.org.uk/login?p_p_id=58*_58_redirect=/myrspca

I hope that the more people that report it, the more chance that something long-term will be done about these people. Tick Tock is safe from further VILE treatment, but other horses won't be so lucky.   

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Signed up.  Where do we report abuse though??


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## imperialequines (27 November 2012)

We at 'Imperial Equines' based in West Sussex would like to officially state that we have NEVER had any involvement whatsoever with 'IMPERIAL HORSES LTD' and have had no association with them at any point. We feel a need to clarify our position as we unfortunately have a very similar name, in view of what has recently come to light. We hope this clears up any confusion that may have been caused by recent issues involving 'IMPERIAL HORSES LTD'.

Regards Sam Adams and Jodi Paris Streeter @ 'Imperial Equines'.


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## Lady La La (27 November 2012)

imperialequines said:



			We at 'Imperial Equines' based in West Sussex would like to officially state that we have NEVER had any involvement whatsoever with 'IMPERIAL HORSES LTD' and have had no association with them at any point. We feel a need to clarify our position as we unfortunately have a very similar name, in view of what has recently come to light. We hope this clears up any confusion that may have been caused by recent issues involving 'IMPERIAL HORSES LTD'.

Regards Sam Adams and Jodi Paris Streeter @ 'Imperial Equines'.
		
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Hopefully you guys wont get too much fall out from all of this


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## kerilli (27 November 2012)

amymay, one of the tabs on LHS once you've joined, I think it's Enquiries or something, then you go to Report Abuse I think. tbh prob easier to ring, someone's just done that and said it was very easy that way!

ImperialEquines, I had already copied and pasted your disclaimer from Facebook, earlier on this thread, along with The Billy Stud's. 
I hope this does not affect your business at all.


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## Christsam (27 November 2012)

Popsdosh - I cannot imagine how awful it was for you to find out it was your boy that this was happening too and I too would have been in tears at a video of mine treated like that.  I have just looked at your videos in the other thread and he does not in the slightest look like he deserved that treatment from them.  I cannot believe after stepping off a lorry they would even be contemplating riding him, let alone think he may not be affected by the move and not show any signs of it.  This is the very reason why I would be loathed to sell my boy.  You never know what is going to happen after they have moved on but its not something you could help.  Thank you for coming on here and sharing your story and Im pleased to hear he is back safely with you.

Also Imperial Equines - I also hope that you do not receive any fall out from this.


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## Immy.C (27 November 2012)

Pleased to hear horse is back with owner and really feel for what they have been through.


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## Firewell (27 November 2012)

I haven't read all of the replies so appologise if this has already been picked up but I think it's Kate Thurston who is involved with this Imperial horses or whatever they call themselves. Tbh it is disgusting but they come on here and they will probably laugh at this thread and think it's funny. They are the scum of the earth and they will never change, they couldn't give a toss about the horses or anyone for that matter.


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## Pink_Lady (27 November 2012)

Popsdosh - am really glad to hear that you have the horse back with you.


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## asyouwish (27 November 2012)

Has this thread gotten shorter or is it just me? I have been watching it and Im sure it had more pages 

I saw that video on FB and I have to say well done popdosh in getting that poor horse back home. I hope what ever action you are taking goes right to the courts and that the media get a hold of that video. Has anyone contacted the media?


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## Amymay (27 November 2012)

kerilli said:



			amymay, one of the tabs on LHS once you've joined, I think it's Enquiries or something, then you go to Report Abuse I think. tbh prob easier to ring, someone's just done that and said it was very easy that way!

ImperialEquines, I had already copied and pasted your disclaimer from Facebook, earlier on this thread, along with The Billy Stud's. 
I hope this does not affect your business at all.
		
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Hi just done it via the login.


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## Amymay (27 November 2012)

Firewell, please remove names from your post, as per HHO Admin's request.


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## ihatework (27 November 2012)

imperialequines said:



			We at 'Imperial Equines' based in West Sussex would like to officially state that we have NEVER had any involvement whatsoever with 'IMPERIAL HORSES LTD' and have had no association with them at any point. We feel a need to clarify our position as we unfortunately have a very similar name, in view of what has recently come to light. We hope this clears up any confusion that may have been caused by recent issues involving 'IMPERIAL HORSES LTD'.

Regards Sam Adams and Jodi Paris Streeter @ 'Imperial Equines'.
		
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I hope you don't get any fall out from this.

Imperial Equines supply a far higher calibre of horse production - for example they did the early work on this years duel 5yo Champion, both BYEH and at Osberton.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (27 November 2012)

Such a shame that other companies are having to declare not being connected and that perhaps these people have been trading on their reps


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## Jenni_ (27 November 2012)

Glad he's back with you.

He's quite the sort I like too... Very lovely little horse!


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## Clippy (27 November 2012)

imperialequines said:



			We at 'Imperial Equines' based in West Sussex would like to officially state that we have NEVER had any involvement whatsoever with 'IMPERIAL HORSES LTD' and have had no association with them at any point. We feel a need to clarify our position as we unfortunately have a very similar name, in view of what has recently come to light. We hope this clears up any confusion that may have been caused by recent issues involving 'IMPERIAL HORSES LTD'.

Regards Sam Adams and Jodi Paris Streeter @ 'Imperial Equines'.
		
Click to expand...

There's obviously going to be potential for confusion here. Might be worth contacting the person who uploaded the video and ask them to update the info with the clarification so that anyone else who views the video knows you're not connected.

If I see the video posted anywhere else in future, i'll make a point of explaining this.

I genuinely hope it doesn't do you any damage. I bet you're mortified!


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## popsdosh (27 November 2012)

asyouwish said:



			Has this thread gotten shorter or is it just me? I have been watching it and Im sure it had more pages 

I saw that video on FB and I have to say well done popdosh in getting that poor horse back home. I hope what ever action you are taking goes right to the courts and that the media get a hold of that video. Has anyone contacted the media?
		
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Some of the post had to be pulled for legal reasons ie naming people,I am hoping I have now sent to H&H enough proof of who was dealing with it ,that can reinstate those post.


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## Amymay (27 November 2012)

How's TicToc today Popsdosh?


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## jessx27 (27 November 2012)

Clippy said:



			There's obviously going to be potential for confusion here. Might be worth contacting the person who uploaded the video and ask them to update the info with the clarification so that anyone else who views the video knows you're not connected.

If I see the video posted anywhere else in future, i'll make a point of explaining this.

I genuinely hope it doesn't do you any damage. I bet you're mortified!
		
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Description has been updated


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## Amymay (27 November 2012)

popsdosh said:



			Some of the post had to be pulled for legal reasons ie naming people,I am hoping I have now sent to H&H enough proof of who was dealing with it ,that can reinstate those post.
		
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This is could be a very newsworthy item for HHO.  A good opportunity for some proper investigative journalism to be done.


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## popsdosh (27 November 2012)

amymay said:



			How's TicToc today Popsdosh?
		
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He is his usual self,ie full of his self importance ! He wont be going out today as fields flooded but in a large pen.Thanks again for your concern


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## Amymay (27 November 2012)

I'm so glad to hear it.


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## Achinghips (27 November 2012)

amymay said:



			This is could be a very newsworthy item for HHO.  A good opportunity for some proper investigative journalism to be done.
		
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LIKE!!!!!!   LIKE!!!!! LIKE!!!!

As a happy hacker, who does the odd occasional show, I'd buy it then


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## Firewell (27 November 2012)

I'm not sure how to?! It's a shame as it does seem slightly pointless unless people know who is involved but hopefully it won't take geniuses to put two and two together.


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## Amymay (27 November 2012)

Firewell said:



			I'm not sure how to?! It's a shame as it does seem slightly pointless unless people know who is involved but hopefully it won't take geniuses to put two and two together.
		
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It's too late now, you needed to edit within 15 mins.

HHO asked us to keep names out of the post until they had verified the identity of the riders of the horse.


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## popsdosh (27 November 2012)

amymay said:



			It's too late now, you needed to edit within 15 mins.

HHO asked us to keep names out of the post until they had verified the identity of the riders of the horse.
		
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Hopefully this wont be an issue now ! Clarification has been sent!


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## Amymay (27 November 2012)

popsdosh said:



			Hopefully this wont be an issue now ! Clarification has been sent!
		
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Great.

Just desperate for thread not to be pulled.


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## BobSmith (27 November 2012)

Well I thought it was high time I broke cover! Yes this is the 'Bob Smith' who uploaded the video. 
I am in fact an active user on HHO, but I made a fake YouTube to upload the video, and am sticking with the fake name as I do not want my real identity broadcasted all over the internet for the monsters at I.H Ltd to see - I have already read plenty of messages saying how they have been known in the past to hurt horses in connection with people who have slagged them off. I would love to reveal who I really am but I think that's one step too far!

Would like to say a HUGE HUGE HUGE thankyou to everybody's support and to everyone who has been just so wonderful and kind. I really can't believe the video has 23,000 views and will probably carry on climbing.
I'm so glad that my actions have ensured Tic Toc was safely returned to his rightful owner and has meant that action has been taken by the RSPCA! My job is done.

Thankyou once again for everybody's support!


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## Amymay (27 November 2012)

Well done Bob!


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## popsdosh (27 November 2012)

A heartfelt thank you BobSmith!!!


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## Marydoll (27 November 2012)

amymay said:



			Well done Bob!






Click to expand...

Dunno how to get the animated hand clapping, so im agreeing with amy may, yaaay Bob nice job


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## Diddleydoo (27 November 2012)

Agree with AmyMay.  Nice work Bob.  Without you it could have been a very different ending.

Also very glad Tic Toc is back with his owner.  Hopefully his story will have a happy ending in a forever home very soon.


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## woodtiger (27 November 2012)

I saw this video on FaceBook. I am so glad to hear that TicToc is back home, safe and sound.

The dealers in question appear to have a Plan B, and have set up a website for LLF Sporthorses: same people, same address, different name: http://www.llfsporthorses.com/

I had the misfortune of buying a horse from a well-known female rider, from Nottinghamshire, who (according to this website) owns and competes horses on their behalf. My horse had been brought from Holland as a four year old, and started out by their then stable jockey, before the well-known rider took him on.

I was led to believe I was buying from her, however discovered he had been register with their stud prefix. There were so many layers, that to this day, I don't know who owned the horse I bought. My horse was well- schooled and obedient under saddle, an out and out winner in the ring, however HHO'ers may recall my pleas for help with his behavioural issues. I can see now why he had these issues if he was handled like TicToc was. He was evicted from three livery yards for his aggressive and dangerous behaviour (rearing up when being led in hand, and striking out at his handler's head, if he succeeded in knocking them over he would stamp on them whilst the person was on the ground). I investigated everything possible, and found him 100% physically sound. His aggression was due to this being the only opportunity he had to assert himself, he had been so badly bullied.

I went down the legal route, discovering that there was another family in the same position as I, who had been sold a jumping pony for their fourteen year old daughter - this it transpired was a confirmed rearer, who would go over backwards.

Thank goodness TicToc has been rescued. Any longer and the damage they have done may have been too much for him. These people should not be allowed near horses. There is a clique of people in this area, headed up by the dealers, with various people riding for them. I would suggest they are all as bad as each other, as they know what goes on in that yard and in riding for them they are condoning it. I say name and shame them, however appreciate that this thread is important, and would not want to be the cause of it being pulled. PM me if you are interested.


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## CatStew (27 November 2012)

This has to be one of the best threads on HHO since forever!  I'm actually amazed at the power of the internet in this case, and well done Bob Smith!!


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## Jesstickle (27 November 2012)

CatStew said:



			This has to be one of the best threads on HHO since forever!  I'm actually amazed at the power of the internet in this case, and well done Bob Smith!! 

Click to expand...

I was going to say this thread is up there with Carrot and Spud


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## deicinmerlyn (27 November 2012)

BobSmith said:



			Well I thought it was high time I broke cover! Yes this is the 'Bob Smith' who uploaded the video. 
I am in fact an active user on HHO, but I made a fake YouTube to upload the video, and am sticking with the fake name as I do not want my real identity broadcasted all over the internet for the monsters at I.H Ltd to see - I have already read plenty of messages saying how they have been known in the past to hurt horses in connection with people who have slagged them off. I would love to reveal who I really am but I think that's one step too far!

Would like to say a HUGE HUGE HUGE thankyou to everybody's support and to everyone who has been just so wonderful and kind. I really can't believe the video has 23,000 views and will probably carry on climbing.
I'm so glad that my actions have ensured Tic Toc was safely returned to his rightful owner and has meant that action has been taken by the RSPCA! My job is done.

Thankyou once again for everybody's support!
		
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Well done for exposing these dreadful people.


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## woodtiger (27 November 2012)

Nice one BobSmith!


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## heroandleander (27 November 2012)

Did someone say in a post earlier that Tick Tocks owner was going to have him PTS ? If so why ?


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## Amymay (27 November 2012)

No, the didn't.


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## heroandleander (27 November 2012)

Dont know all the in's and outs how did the horse end up at the dealers ?


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## teapot (27 November 2012)

heroandleander said:



			Dont know all the in's and outs how did the horse end up at the dealers ?
		
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Read the whole thread, not that the owner should feel like they have to defend themselves...


Well done Bob, got to love the power of the internet


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## mtj (27 November 2012)

Llf Horses is now on facebook.


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## stencilface (27 November 2012)

Love it - Bob Smith is the psuedonym of a muslim friend on facebook, so he can hide his drinking and other very non-muslim ways from his very strict family, I woudl hazard a guess its not the same one!


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## squiz22 (27 November 2012)

Well done Bob Smith!! So glad tictoc is home. Isn't sad that nearly everyone on here has a story about a bad dealer!!


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## ihatework (27 November 2012)

mtj said:



			Llf Horses is now on facebook.
		
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We should turn this into a HHO sweepstake.

How many company names can just one dodgy dealer create?


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## kerilli (27 November 2012)

well done BobSmith, you are an utter STAR for making that vid public again. I am so glad they were oblivious enough to post it in the first place... not surprising considering that they could not even see what we were all so upset about. 
So glad Tic Tok is safe now. I fear for their other horses though.


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## alwaysbroke (27 November 2012)

Another one who would like to say well done to Bob Smith


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## alainax (27 November 2012)

This could be a movie  

Ive been shocked, angry, relieved, curious,  happy and close to tears reading alot of it! Alot more than most of the films ive watched recently! 

Nice one erm.. Bob smith  ( I lol'd when I seen the name under the you tube vid, almost as funny as my German friend who chose John Black to make a very vauge english name ) and quite right on hiding your identity, quite a humble thing to do imo too  ( even if it was for safety reasons  ) 

Im so pleased tick tocs previous owner got him back so fast, id have been a screaming  banshee wreck who may have required either being thrown in a mental hospital or jail after the confrontation - so good on you for holding it together for the sake of that lovely boy. 

He really has became quite the super star now, I wonder if it would be possible to make a blog for him, or his own little page, so his by now thens of thousands of fans can see more of him and read his story ( I understand the owner wont for legal reasons ofc).

And nice work from the HHO and FB community for using the might of the internet to get somthing done.  The internet can be a big scary place at times, but every now and again, a story like this one really stands out


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## Maisie2 (27 November 2012)

And another WELL DONE   But horrified to hear that these ghastly people have been known to harm horses belonging to people who speak up against them   Good luck to Tick Toc, I'm sure he will now find an excellent home.


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## glamourpuss (27 November 2012)

Well the cretins from this video are trying to do some damage limitation it seems.
I'm in their area.....sort of...& a story has been put out locally that Tic Toc was considered dangerous & this was his last chance as he was about to be PTS. Supposedly the video has been edited (by somebody with an axe to grind) to only show this bad part & didn't show what Tic Toc was doing previously.
I did put the person who told me this straight & directed them to this thread....I just hope that not many people are taken in by the lies


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## JanetGeorge (27 November 2012)

mtj said:



			Llf Horses is now on facebook.
		
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And he only has 4 friends!   I don't think I would want to show up as a 'friend' to this cretin!

And VERY well done 'BobSmith' - the video is already near 'viral' and - hopefully - anyone who searches on the names of these cretins will run a mile before going there to buy a horse!


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## kerilli (27 November 2012)

glamourpuss, they started that rumour yesterday. the videos previous posted by the owner (in Oct '12) such as this one  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlQ7y7utR7I&feature=context-cha 
prove that that was a total lie, as does the horse's body language in the video. I think that, and the laughter, is what incensed us all so much... the horse goes forward nicely a few times, or stops in confusion, and is hit again for no reason. I hope nobody believes their lies.


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## seabsicuit2 (27 November 2012)

Is this the horse that was the brother to Jimmy Shoo that the owner was trying to find a rider for?

Either way glad that all has ended well.


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## glamourpuss (27 November 2012)

Kerilli, I totally agree with you. I think it's fairly obvious from the video that this is not a snippet of a schooling video but an example of pure abuse for their 'amusement'.  However I am concerned that people will be taken in by their lies. 
I just thought I'd also make posters aware how low these imbeciles are that they are still trying to defend their actions


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## popsdosh (27 November 2012)

I would like any of the doubters about his temperament to look at the three videos in my original post on this subject and tell me what leads you to believe that he is dangerous!!!!
The girl riding him is just 16 and still at school!! They are trying to cover there butts.
When the RSPCA turned up they told them that he was dangerous and needed sorting,I have since heard that they dont believe this either.I can say very little of what I know but the horse had been sedated as Kate told me so.It was done to clip his head and then they jumped on and carried out that assault.If that rider was on a racehorse they would have been banned for life!!!!
I dont like having to defend myself or the people who have looked after him so well but I will if I need to.I always find it highly suspicious when new members come on here and start preaching contrary to everybody else.I do know they are watching this thread as they are trying hard to get it removed.You will need to try harder Paul and maybe put some of the effort towards horse welfare instead!!!!


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## glamourpuss (27 November 2012)

Popsdosh....please, please, PLEASE don't think for a moment that I'm doubting you! 
I just thought I'd post the ridiculous rumours that have been started to try & cover up their disgusting actions. I'm sorry if you thought that I was implying I believed them.
[GP wishes she hadn't posted ]


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## Gingerwitch (27 November 2012)

All I can say is

Bob's a good one then !


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## popsdosh (27 November 2012)

seabsicuit2 said:



			Is this the horse that was the brother to Jimmy Shoo that the owner was trying to find a rider for?

Either way glad that all has ended well.
		
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Spot on ! He had been advertised for some time without success.I dont really want to go over why he was sold other than to say ,I was hoping to give him a chance of reaching his potential as I am personally not able to at present . This I am reconsidering as I may have to just find the cash and let another go instead .


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## Gingerwitch (27 November 2012)

The worst thing about all of this is if the horse had not had such a nice clam nature they would not have been brave enough to do this to the lad ! typical bully's they pick on one's that they dont think will retaliate

so glad he is home.... and i am in Staffordshire if you want to drop him off


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## popsdosh (27 November 2012)

glamourpuss said:



			Popsdosh....please, please, PLEASE don't think for a moment that I'm doubting you! 
I just thought I'd post the ridiculous rumours that have been started to try & cover up their disgusting actions. I'm sorry if you thought that I was implying I believed them.
[GP wishes she hadn't posted ]
		
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 I dont for one moment think you believed them was more having a go at the transparency of posters with very low numbers of post having contrary views,and I was trying to just dispel the myths!


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## Moomin1 (27 November 2012)

popsdosh said:



			I dont for one moment think you believed them was more having a go at the transparency of posters with very low numbers of post having contrary views,and I was trying to just dispel the myths!
		
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I wouldn't worry about people believing their lies popsdosh.  

Glad Tick Tock is safe and well now.


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## M_G (27 November 2012)

Popsdosh I am just so happy that you have your lad home again & i really do take my hat off to you for acting as soon as you knew whst was going on.. It is about time the dealers responsible were prosecuted as they have gotten away with so much for far too long


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## HBII (27 November 2012)

Can't read and walk from this one, what utter scum, lets hope karma is real ... What do I need to do to help? Bobsmith is a legend. X


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## Moomin1 (27 November 2012)

HBII said:



			Can't read and walk from this one, what utter scum, lets hope karma is real ... What do I need to do to help? Bobsmith is a legend. X
		
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Apart from finding any further evidence of mistreatment from these people, everything has been done now.

It's a case of sitting and waiting now. Fingers crossed everyone!


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## Venevidivici (27 November 2012)

Hooray for Bob Smith!! Bob,long may you continue to be a silent,YouTube-scouring,saviour of horses!  Welcome home,lucky Tic Toc. Popsdosh, good luck with his future-hope you can find a solution that fits for you both and that your lucky escape is instrumental in helping to take these b*st*rds down..
And said B*st*rds....if you are reading this...there are many people here,and many more that they know, and even more that they know,who will not let you rest....


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## Marydoll (27 November 2012)

Interesting that these individuals are watching the thread ...GOOD i really hope you take a long hard look at yourselves and what youve been doing, im sorry but the previous videos show what a lovely little horse this is and showed you lot as nasty evil ar$eh0les, id like to say what i really think but dont want a ban.


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## Zeus (27 November 2012)

I am incensed watching the video, these 'dealers' need to be put out of business NOW. Is it worth contacting Trading Standards again?


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## heroandleander (27 November 2012)

Popsdosh if you are still looking for a home for him you will probably have your pick now so many concerned about him , i hope you are going to keep everyone up to date with how he is pictures etc


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## dingle12 (27 November 2012)

So glad you have your horse back, I sadly witnessed something very similar but sadly never thought of videoing it so I have no proof but I'm sure as time goes on something will be shown as proof enough people know about the individual in my area. Sadly they seem to be slot of them about


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## BobSmith (27 November 2012)

Venevidivici said:



			Hooray for Bob Smith!! Bob,long may you continue to be a silent,YouTube-scouring,saviour of horses! 

Click to expand...

^ absolutely brilliant!

These 'dealers' (they shouldn't be worthy of such a title in my opinion) can say I edited the video, can say I have a personal grudge, can say the horse was at fault all they like... We all know they're wrong, and, for the record, I'm pretty sure somebody else managed to download the video.. so there is more than one copy!!!

I hope they get their comeuppance.


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## Gingerwitch (27 November 2012)

To the Spiderman tune of  yesteryear...


Bob Smith Man, Bob Smith Man, does whatever a detective can, catches rouge dealer just like fly's, saves their videos - any size - look out - look out for BOB SMITH MAN


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## BobSmith (27 November 2012)

Gingerwitch said:



			To the Spiderman tune of  yesteryear...


Bob Smith Man, Bob Smith Man, does whatever a detective can, catches rouge dealer just like fly's, saves their videos - any size - look out - look out for BOB SMITH MAN



Click to expand...


The best yet!!! Genius.
Aww you guuuuyyyss - I'm blushing


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## magic104 (27 November 2012)

I think we should also be grateful to fate along with the fact these people did not have a brain cell between them.  They pick the horse up on the Sunday, sedate, clip & RECORD their abuse of him, even mention his name (which was their undoing) put it on UTUBE public long enough for someone with enough intelligence to get a copy.  Someone else puts it on a CLOSED page on FB on the Monday where it is then viewed by a few people some of whome share it on their timeline.  Someone else from the closed page then puts it on here.  In the meantime someone who would normally not be on the PC sees the video hears the name contacts the owner.  And 24hrs later he is back home safe & sound!  I have already said my thank you's and the fact that the internet can be used for some good.  But I also thank fate and the fact that there are people who care, and dealers who do NOT abuse their animals.  Good luck Tic Toc, fate looked after you may it continue.


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## Venevidivici (27 November 2012)

On the subject of detective work,those HHOers who are also HHO CSI members could maybe do a little groundwork as to who the-people-who-shall-not-be-named are on here? I reckon a look back at any threads that mentions any of their real life names & a scrutinisation of any new posters who pop up to unfailingly praise those accused people, on those threads, may narrow the net a bit..???


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## lynds81 (27 November 2012)

kirstykate said:



			I am NOT condoning this behavior at all, but we dont have the full facts, how do what not know that this is not the last stop saloon for a serial bucker?  The horse may already be damaged goods and they are trying to fix the problem before it goes in a hole?
		
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Because hitting it like that to make it buck is never going to teach it not to buck. You can't punish an animal before it does something wrong as it will never know why it's being punished.


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## magic104 (28 November 2012)

kirstykate it saddens me to read your comments, as it shows a total lack of understanding.   First off even if he was a "serial bucker" considering most bucking behaviour is pain related what use is hitting the animal.  And what has been pointed out time and again is this horse was being hit even when he was NOT bucking.  I am sure there are others here who have had issues with a horse only to find it had muscle damage or kissing spine or a saddle that did not fit, or a wolf tooth.  Sometimes it is learned behaviour.  What checks could possibly have been done by these dealers from picking him up, sedating him, cliping him, then getting on his back and hitting him.  Anyone who tries to make an excuse for the treatment of this horse needs to walk away from horses.  You are not fit to be handling them, end of.  There is NO excuse, none what so ever.  The background was given way back in this thread if anyone making excuses could be bothered to read them.


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## Amaranta (28 November 2012)

Bob Smith is a complete star 

I do think that thanks should also go out to the young lady who first put the original video up on Facebook, she was a little worried as she is local to the scumbags and was concerned about repercussions but posted it anyway.

Also just wanted to say that the video has already reached Australia 

The power of the internet at it's very very best


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## heroandleander (28 November 2012)

First off i do not condone ANY form of cruelty on ANY animal and having read a lot on this case elsewhere such as youtube facebook etc im sorry but it does pose the question , why did the horses owners sell him to a dealer ? We are being led to believe Ticktocks owner let someone else (his breeder) make that decision for them ? So was he completely unaware of where his horse was going ? Now earlier in this post i did ask if it was true that his owner had intended putting him to sleep and got a dead pan reply of no it wasnt from someone who wasnt ticktocks owner - as i have stressed already i do not condone any form of cruelty however as an individual i am entitled as everyone else on here is also to my own opinions and ask questions - why was the horse sold to a dealer in the first place ?


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## heroandleander (28 November 2012)

Ultimately whatever the truth behind this Ticktock is safe now and as i pointed out again in another earlier post i am sure now he is famous he will have thousands of people willing to offer him a good home. If he were mine and i had sold him for all this to happen for sure i would not be letting him out my sight again but obviously everyone is different


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## magic104 (28 November 2012)

heroandleander said:



			First off i do not condone ANY form of cruelty on ANY animal and having read a lot on this case elsewhere such as youtube facebook etc im sorry but it does pose the question , why did the horses owners sell him to a dealer ? We are being led to believe Ticktocks owner let someone else (his breeder) make that decision for them ? So was he completely unaware of where his horse was going ? Now earlier in this post i did ask if it was true that his owner had intended putting him to sleep and got a dead pan reply of no it wasnt from someone who wasnt ticktocks owner - as i have stressed already i do not condone any form of cruelty however as an individual i am entitled as everyone else on here is also to my own opinions and ask questions - why was the horse sold to a dealer in the first place ?
		
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Signed up just to comment here, who are you really?  The dealer said it was his last chance or he was going to be PTS.  What does it matter if that was true?  Because even if he had issues with bucking, they are still hitting him when he stops.  He was never ridden just hit & hit & hit.  We now know that he was also sedated.  So please do not keep harping on about why he was sold to a dealer or if he was going to be PTS.  1000's of horses are sold to dealers and thankfully most do not abuse their horses.  Lets face it plenty goes on behind closed doors especially with private homes, so why are you trying to make out that this is the owners fault?  And the question of why he was sold to a dealer in the first instance has already been explained in an earlier post by the owner, suggest you take the time to back and read through.  The only other comment made with PTS in was mine when I said the owner "Would rather have put him to sleep then see him end up like this" or words to that affect.


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## heroandleander (28 November 2012)

magic104 said:



			Signed up just to comment here, who are you really?  The dealer said it was his last chance or he was going to be PTS.  What does it matter if that was true?  Because even if he had issues with bucking, they are still hitting him when he stops.  He was never ridden just hit & hit & hit.  We now know that he was also sedated.  So please do not keep harping on about why he was sold to a dealer or if he was going to be PTS.  1000's of horses are sold to dealers and thankfully most do not abuse their horses.  Lets face it plenty goes on behind closed doors especially with private homes, so why are you trying to make out that this is the owners fault?  And the question of why he was sold to a dealer in the first instance has already been explained in an earlier post by the owner, suggest you take the time to back and read through.  The only other comment made with PTS in was mine when I said the owner "Would rather have put him to sleep then see him end up like this" or words to that affect.
		
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First off i did NOT sign up here just to comment here so please check facts before jumping in , i have nothing to do with dealer owner or any other person involved to suggest i do is paranoia as i stated there are many threads over fb and yt of which i was ref i have not once stated that what happened to this horse was the owners fault so please do not put words into my mouth , i do not condone nor appreciate ANY cruelty to any animal as i also clearly stated and just because a person isnt automatically jumping on the band wagon does not mean they do ! I can see for myself what everyone else can see when they watch the video however AS I AM ENTITLED TO i do not think this story is as cut and dried as made out and for having my own opinion as kirstykate did earlier i should not be attacked.


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## popsdosh (28 November 2012)

heroandleander said:



			First off i do not condone ANY form of cruelty on ANY animal and having read a lot on this case elsewhere such as youtube facebook etc im sorry but it does pose the question , why did the horses owners sell him to a dealer ? We are being led to believe Ticktocks owner let someone else (his breeder) make that decision for them ? So was he completely unaware of where his horse was going ? Now earlier in this post i did ask if it was true that his owner had intended putting him to sleep and got a dead pan reply of no it wasnt from someone who wasnt ticktocks owner - as i have stressed already i do not condone any form of cruelty however as an individual i am entitled as everyone else on here is also to my own opinions and ask questions - why was the horse sold to a dealer in the first place ?
		
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WTF why do I have to defend our actions .We were duped by the dealer as he uses a succession of females to buy horses .If you think for one minute I would have knowingly sold a horse to Paul Clarke under any of his guises be it imperial horses or LLF sport horses think again and if that was his only option I would happily have shot him myself! I was trying to do the best for the horse and give him a chance he is not easy to market as although he is very well bred his size 15hh and age make him not a very attractive proposition. If he was 8 or 9 I could have sold him easily and they would have been queing up at my door. He was not the result of indiscriminate breeding and it is just unfortunate for him that he is being sold at a time when people dont want horses .Do you honestly think I invest in excess of £4k in buying a 2yo and then get him professionally backed to sell him to scum like them.If you do Crawl back under your stone !!!


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## heroandleander (28 November 2012)

popsdosh said:



			WTF why do I have to defend our actions .We were duped by the dealer as he uses a succession of females to buy horses .If you think for one minute I would have knowingly sold a horse to Paul Clarke under any of his guises be it imperial horses or LLF sport horses think again and if that was his only option I would happily have shot him myself! I was trying to do the best for the horse and give him a chance he is not easy to market as although he is very well bred his size 15hh and age make him not a very attractive proposition. If he was 8 or 9 I could have sold him easily and they would have been queing up at my door. He was not the result of indiscriminate breeding and it is just unfortunate for him that he is being sold at a time when people dont want horses .Do you honestly think I invest in excess of £4k in buying a 2yo and then get him professionally backed to sell him to scum like them.If you do Crawl back under your stone !!!
		
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Well im glad to hear it as if you HAD knowingly sold to these people then im sure it should be you who would now be crawling back under your stone ! Perhaps the best advice would be to report said woman you sold the horse to as if she lied about who she was surely there can be criminal proceedings to undertake ? And surely anyone reading your plight over this forum other forums fb and yt has a right to ask questions ? No ? No freedom of speech here ? If i was the owner of a horse and saw that happen to him in a video i would not be responsible for my actions i too would feel sickened as everyone else on here is just because i have the audacity to ask why he was sold to a dealer does not make me a sympathiser of said dealer or someone in disguise it means because its on a public forum i have the same right as everyone else to ask the obvious.


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## mtj (28 November 2012)

popsdosh said:



			WTF why do I have to defend our actions .We were duped by the dealer as he uses a succession of females to buy horses .If you think for one minute I would have knowingly sold a horse to Paul Clarke under any of his guises be it imperial horses or LLF sport horses think again and if that was his only option I would happily have shot him myself! I was trying to do the best for the horse and give him a chance he is not easy to market as although he is very well bred his size 15hh and age make him not a very attractive proposition. If he was 8 or 9 I could have sold him easily and they would have been queing up at my door. He was not the result of indiscriminate breeding and it is just unfortunate for him that he is being sold at a time when people dont want horses .Do you honestly think I invest in excess of £4k in buying a 2yo and then get him professionally backed to sell him to scum like them.If you do Crawl back under your stone !!!
		
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Going way off topic, don't know if you are aware, but there are many dressage riders seeking small horses ie under 16hh.  I'm guessing a 15h 4 yr old warmblood has a good chance of making 15.2, and then into hens teeth category for petite dressage riders.


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## popsdosh (28 November 2012)

heroandleander said:



			First off i did NOT sign up here just to comment here so please check facts before jumping in , i have nothing to do with dealer owner or any other person involved to suggest i do is paranoia as i stated there are many threads over fb and yt of which i was ref i have not once stated that what happened to this horse was the owners fault so please do not put words into my mouth , i do not condone nor appreciate ANY cruelty to any animal as i also clearly stated and just because a person isnt automatically jumping on the band wagon does not mean they do ! I can see for myself what everyone else can see when they watch the video however AS I AM ENTITLED TO i do not think this story is as cut and dried as made out and for having my own opinion as kirstykate did earlier i should not be attacked.
		
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Well you have it from the horses mouth now. I will not back away from the question of PTS you seem very keen to have answered. My personal view is if you cannot find a suitable safe home for your horse and you are not able to give it a life I would not have any other option.As has been shown by these events you never know where they end up! As I stated above Tic toc had cost about £4k up to now do you not think I was trying my best to find a home.There is evidence elsewhere on this forum of my efforts in that respect


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## mtj (28 November 2012)

heroandleander said:



			Well im glad to hear it as if you HAD knowingly sold to these people then im sure it should be you who would now be crawling back under your stone ! Perhaps the best advice would be to report said woman you sold the horse to as if she lied about who she was surely there can be criminal proceedings to undertake ? And surely anyone reading your plight over this forum other forums fb and yt has a right to ask questions ? No ? No freedom of speech here ? If i was the owner of a horse and saw that happen to him in a video i would not be responsible for my actions i too would feel sickened as everyone else on here is just because i have the audacity to ask why he was sold to a dealer does not make me a sympathiser of said dealer or someone in disguise it means because its on a public forum i have the same right as everyone else to ask the obvious.
		
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I'm also fairly local to the couple in the video.  They are notorious and have been repeatedly reported to various authorities.  The woman videoing has done time (reported in H+H) for tack theft.  Sadly, they are quite convincing.  The woman even managed to rent some stables from a well known equestrian centre (owners not idiots) before they found out her past.


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## heroandleander (28 November 2012)

I think that there is always a home for a horse even if it means a financial loss , i think the main objective here is that the horse is now safe and sound and as i said earlier with the interest now in Ticktock i am sure a great home could now be found for him


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## Amymay (28 November 2012)

heroandleander said:



			I think that there is always a home for a horse even if it means a financial loss ,
		
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God, if only that were true!  And often at what cost to the horse.......


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## heroandleander (28 November 2012)

Of course it is true , why would taking a financial loss on a horse prevent you from finding a good home ? Also how many people on this forum could offer him a good home ? Im sure there would be plenty willing to do so


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## popsdosh (28 November 2012)

heroandleander said:



			I think that there is always a home for a horse even if it means a financial loss , i think the main objective here is that the horse is now safe and sound and as i said earlier with the interest now in Ticktock i am sure a great home could now be found for him
		
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As you can see I was taking a huge financial lose selling as I did, as you know they will only pay peanuts ! Would not even cover a few bales of haylage im afraid.


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## heroandleander (28 November 2012)

Do you mind me asking how long you had advertised him for ?


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## Amymay (28 November 2012)

heroandleander said:



			Do you mind me asking how long you had advertised him for ?
		
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What the hell has any of this got to do with you?  Why all this grilling of TicToc's owner.

Really, just leave it alone.


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## heroandleander (28 November 2012)

Well amymay what the hell does it have to do with you either lol ? Im not 'grilling' ticktocks owner im asking questions which ticktocks owner is happy to answer , this person doesnt have anything to hide and like you i am posting on this forum out of interest for the horse


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## Amymay (28 November 2012)

heroandleander said:



			Well amymay what the hell does it have to do with you either lol ? Im not 'grilling' ticktocks owner im asking questions which ticktocks owner is happy to answer , this person doesnt have anything to hide and like you i am posting on this forum out of interest for the horse
		
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You _are _grilling the horses owner.  You are insinuating that they are somehow at fault here - which they clearly are not.

It has nothing to do with me other than feeling rather saddened that a poster would make insinuations about this poster, the situation, and the outcome.

Below the belt, and really uncalled for.

If you want to troll, do it either on another post or another site.


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## heroandleander (28 November 2012)

Where at any point have i insinuated anything amymay ? That there could land you in trouble on a forum like this , i have not insinuated nor accused nor grilled i have asked questions which ticktocks owner has been happy to answer


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## Gingerwitch (28 November 2012)

Dont we think TicTocks owner has had enough ? you cannot know every scum bag in the UK connected with horses - how many folk get duped by back people, dentists, saddlers, buyers and sellers?

People like the scum involved with the abuse of this young feller - are convincing, manipulative and wholly beleavable, they are professional CON people - if they had scum tattooed on their head, you may have a chance !


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## Amymay (28 November 2012)

heroandleander said:



			Where at any point have i insinuated anything amymay ? That there could land you in trouble on a forum like this , i have not insinuated nor accused nor grilled i have asked questions which ticktocks owner has been happy to answer
		
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Your posts are full of insinuations.

As I said, if you want to troll - please do it elsewhere.


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## JanetGeorge (28 November 2012)

amymay said:



			You _are _grilling the horses owner.  You are insinuating that they are somehow at fault here - which they clearly are not.

It has nothing to do with me other than feeling rather saddened that a poster would make insinuations about this poster, the situation, and the outcome.

Below the belt, and really uncalled for.

If you want to troll, do it either on another post or another site.
		
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Agree - 100%.  TicToc's owner did the best possible for the horse - and was deceived!  It happens!  But immediately the outcome became obvious, acted quickly to save the horse.  All praise due - and cross-examination is absolutely uncalled for!!


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## cptrayes (28 November 2012)

heroandleander said:



			I think that there is always a home for a horse even if it means a financial loss
		
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Oh I do agree with you. There is!

I sold a ten year old horse with spavins, on my vet's instructions to get him off hills,  for £500, to an immaculate yard with two outdoor arenas, wonderfullly fenced paddocks, a lovely owner who gave me references and brought a livery with her to vouch for her. She showed me photos of his stable already made up with a huge bed. She paid £300 to have him professionally transported to her yard.

And she threw him out into a field with no food in November,  December and January and starved him to the point of emaciation.

It's ALWAYS possible to find a home for a horse, and you never know how good that home will actually turn out to be.

Get off your preaching stool now, please.

Tic Toc's owner has done her best.  It's the dealer here who was scum.


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## Venevidivici (28 November 2012)

Heroandleander-I also don't see how most of your questions are 'out of interest for the horse'. Do u mean your questions are 'in the horse's interests' (if so,I fail to see how) or that you are interested in buying the horse(if the latter,PM the owner,surely?).


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## CatStew (28 November 2012)

Heroleander - have you stopped to think about how the horses owner might be feeling right now?  They were doing what they thought was best for the horse.  This has been a hugely upsetting experience for all involved, but at least the horse is safe now and the scum have been 'outed' once more.  I think the grilling (and yes, it _is_ grilling) should stop now.


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## Jesstickle (28 November 2012)

horseandleader- so no horse should EVER be sold to a dealer and no horse should EVER be PTS rather than sold?

If I'm reading what you're writing correctly that is what you are saying?


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## Achinghips (28 November 2012)

Can people please stop feeding the troll, they've had too much airtime already.  Popsdosh - you do not need to explain yourself.


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## heroandleander (28 November 2012)

Im sure that if and when this case goes to court any questions will be answered , as for the band wagon jumpers - is this not a public forum is this not a place for opinions and questions .. oh no wait ... you cant do that for fear of a backlash. Small minded people. Away back to your pirelli and native horse handbooks.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (28 November 2012)

Heroandleander you are an insensitive creature.

If the owner didnt care then why go get the horse back? 

Perhaps you are in league with the dealer?? Just going by your insinuation and compete lack of sensitivity in asking these quite unnecessary questions! I know people who have sold to dealers not knowing their rep and they havent had the horror of seing things like this but when they ahve found out their rep have felt bad about, nowt you can do the horses are gone if turnover is quick.

If it wasnt for the pr@tts posting it on the net then Popdosh wouldnt have had a clue that he was being treated like that. They didnt even know it was these dealers that he went to.

Your getting jumped on due to your own actions, people just dont randomly pick a name and go for it online, your making your own bed as far as I see it.


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## heroandleander (28 November 2012)

Xmas beastie insinuating i am in league with the dealer is libelous and i ask you not to suggest it please.


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## kerilli (28 November 2012)

heroandleander said:



			and for having my own opinion as kirstykate did earlier i should not be attacked.
		
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Your opinion is about as useful to the situation as hers was, though, hence the opprobrium.

The facts are all out there now. The people who did this to the horse are the villains of the piece, NOT the owner who was totally misled and who did everything to remedy the situation as soon as he could. So please, with respect, lay off. 
As for "there is always a home for a horse" - sorry, that is unbelievably naive. If we had a cull and eliminated a few hundred thousand of the dross, so that there was a slight shortage, and limited breeding, perhaps there would be. Horses and ponies are starving to death every single day in this country. Just look at SWHP's work for example. The rescue centres are swamped. The fact that even a really well-bred, well-produced little horse like this ended up in a hell-hole through NO fault of his own OR HIS OWNER'S proves what a mess the whole situation is at the moment.


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## Amymay (28 November 2012)

heroandleander said:



			Xmas beastie insinuating i am in league with the dealer is libelous and i ask you not to suggest it please.
		
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Xmas Beastie is not insinuating, therefore not libeling you.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (28 November 2012)

amymay said:



			Xmasbeastie is not insinuating, therefore not libeling you.
		
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Thank you!!! Not libel Im afraid  carryon though trying to wriggle out of the position you have put yourself in. Fun to watch


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## heroandleander (28 November 2012)

I have not once accused the owner of being to blame so please do not insinuate that i have. I take it you know the owner personally then and know everything on this thread to be fact ? If so hey i put my hands up for daring to ask questions , how dare i , on a public forum. I have no interest in the dealer or anything to do with them , personally the first thing that struck me was the rider was still hitting the horse even when the horse stopped bucking. Secondly , this has generated so much interest i think its fair to say Ticktock will now have his choice of homes , thirdly yes of course i questioned as to why the horse ended up where he did as i think that is the obvious first question to ask ! And lastly ticktocks owner answered said questions without behaving in such an example as you are !


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## heroandleander (28 November 2012)

'Perhaps you are in league with the dealer??' is an insinuation dear and has been reported.


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## Amymay (28 November 2012)

heroandleander said:



			'Perhaps you are in league with the dealer??' is an insinuation dear and has been reported.
		
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No, it is a question.  Therefore not libelous.


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## Amaranta (28 November 2012)

heroandleander said:



			Where at any point have i insinuated anything amymay ? That there could land you in trouble on a forum like this , i have not insinuated nor accused nor grilled i have asked questions which ticktocks owner has been happy to answer
		
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I agree with amymay, you ARE grilling the owner, it is absolutely none of your business how long they advertised the horse for.

You also seem to be living in a little bubble re there always being a suitable home available.  That'll be why the sanctuaries are full and horses are being dumped!

The mere fact that this owner behaved in a very responsible way, and, as soon as they realised where the horse was, they went and bought it back.

I cannot help but wonder if you have a connection to the dealer?


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## Roasted Chestnuts (28 November 2012)

heroandleander said:



			'Perhaps you are in league with the dealer??' is an insinuation dear and has been reported.
		
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Report it, only an errant thought and one that really im sure many agree with so report away. Im sure that HHO admin will find my post neither insulting, agressive nor breaking any other rules of the forum so carry on


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## kerilli (28 November 2012)

heroandleander said:



			'Perhaps you are in league with the dealer??' is an insinuation dear and has been reported.
		
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looks like a question to me. 

'dear'? 

Oh dear oh dear oh dear...


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## heroandleander (28 November 2012)

kerilli said:



			looks like a question to me. 

'dear'? 

Oh dear oh dear oh dear...
		
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 Only ignorance! Don't you know it is the worst thing in the world, next to wickedness?" !


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## Gingerwitch (28 November 2012)

heroandleander said:



			'Perhaps you are in league with the dealer??' is an insinuation dear and has been reported.
		
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ohh i can see that standing up in court "Sparkly Whip - you are accussed on the 28th November of stating that "HEROANDLEANDER" were in league with the dealer - how can libel be against some unknown person with the name of HEROANDLEANDER...

but anyway's thanks for confirming why you are still posting... just looking for someway to get the post pulled or a bit of amo for when the dealers go to court !

Can anyone suggest that TFC locks this thread so it will remain for the world to see and not get pulled, as is so obvious the want of HEROANDLEANDER


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## Roasted Chestnuts (28 November 2012)

kerilli said:



			looks like a question to me. 

'dear'? 

Oh dear oh dear oh dear...
		
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LOL that sort of sillyness doesnt provoke me, done to death really and something a blind man can see through to provoke a situation to take the heat off themselves and make others out to be the bad ones. H&L can carry on 

And it was a question hence the question marks. You seem quite happy to ask hard questions that hurt people so maybe you are getting a taste of your own medicine with my question H&L???


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## Moomin1 (28 November 2012)

heroandleander said:



			I have not once accused the owner of being to blame so please do not insinuate that i have. I take it you know the owner personally then and know everything on this thread to be fact ? If so hey i put my hands up for daring to ask questions , how dare i , on a public forum. I have no interest in the dealer or anything to do with them , personally the first thing that struck me was the rider was still hitting the horse even when the horse stopped bucking. Secondly , this has generated so much interest i think its fair to say Ticktock will now have his choice of homes , thirdly yes of course i questioned as to why the horse ended up where he did as i think that is the obvious first question to ask ! And lastly ticktocks owner answered said questions without behaving in such an example as you are !
		
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No and I hazard a guess that you don't know all the facts either.  

Only the investigator will establish all of the actual facts shortly.


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## Jesstickle (28 November 2012)

heroandleader- it has already been explained in detail how the horse ended up where it did. Can you not read?

Or is that libel too? 

Several people on this thread seem to know the owner in real life and are happy to vouch for them. I'm sure that is enough for any normal person to content themselves with.

Why don't you ring WHW and ask them their official line on selling/rehoming horses as opposed to PTS before spouting nonsense about any horse being saleable?


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## Roasted Chestnuts (28 November 2012)

Moomin1 said:



			No and I hazard a guess that you don't know all the facts either.  

Only the investigator will establish all of the actual facts shortly.
		
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*LIKE*


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## heroandleander (28 November 2012)

Lol ladies ladies go back to your week tea and knitting ? Seriously , a public forum leaves one open to being questioned , questions gather at best facts , the fact here is you people do not like anyone having any kind of opinion that differs from your own and gather like stray dogs in an alleyway waiting to pounce on anyone who dares to ask a question ! Shame on you ! And please do keep this thread going i think its a good thing its in the public domain !


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## heroandleander (28 November 2012)

Moomin1 said:



			No and I hazard a guess that you don't know all the facts either.  

Only the investigator will establish all of the actual facts shortly.
		
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Hence my reason for asking the owner the facts and not other people on this forum who dont know him from adam but instead ive been bullied for doing so


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## Moomin1 (28 November 2012)

heroandleander said:



			Hence my reason for asking the owner the facts and not other people on this forum who dont know him from adam but instead ive been bullied for doing so
		
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It isn't for anybody other than the investigator to establish the 'facts' at this stage.  

And how long it's been up for sale is pretty irrelevant anyway!


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## kerilli (28 November 2012)

heroandleander said:



			Only ignorance! Don't you know it is the worst thing in the world, next to wickedness?" !
		
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And your point is?
I'm not the ignorant one in this situation, I assure you. Whether we're talking about this individual case or the nation-wide plight of many equines.
Also, I can tell the difference between a question and a libellous accusation. 
And condescension really gets my back up, even when it's aimed at someone else initially.

Anyway, back to the point of the post. What else needs saying?


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## mtj (28 November 2012)

heroandleander said:



			Im sure that if and when this case goes to court any questions will be answered , as for the band wagon jumpers - is this not a public forum is this not a place for opinions and questions .. oh no wait ... you cant do that for fear of a backlash. Small minded people. Away back to your pirelli and native horse handbooks.
		
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What's wrong with natives?  For the record, my horse is a bred to jump warmblood.  Please lets not draw parelli into this.....


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## Amymay (28 November 2012)

heroandleander said:



			the fact here is you people do not like anyone having any kind of opinion that differs from your own and gather like stray dogs in an alleyway waiting to pounce on anyone who dares to ask a question ! Shame on you ! And please do keep this thread going i think its a good thing its in the public domain !
		
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Actually you know that's not true (having seen how long you've been on the forum, and presumably reading it).  

And as you have now admitted that your opinion differs from every other poster on this thread, why continue to contribute?  As for your questions, well they're really not relevant in this particular instance.

And the bullying card????  Please....................


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## Sparkles (28 November 2012)

I'm failing to see the relevance of any questioning regarding the horse needed when it comes down to a video, made public nonetheless, of a horse getting basted no less than 20 times in no more than a minute or two.


In what world, is THAT acceptable. No horse 'needs' that or 'has that coming for it', regardless. If any one is still in that frame of mind around horses, then, you need to quit your day job frankly. [Nothing to do with 'Parelli' or native breeds, I fail to see the relevance of that comment?]


Fine, anyone feel free to question the [previous] owner, question everything else you feel like questioning...but ultimately, it comes to down that act shown on the horse surely.

I see NOTHING to question with that.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (28 November 2012)

heroandleander said:



			Hence my reason for asking the owner the facts and not other people on this forum who dont know him from adam but instead ive been bullied for doing so
		
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You havent been bullied you have been questioned about your insensitive and pointless probing questions. How long the horse was for sale is not relevant what is relevant is the threatment a horse was given hours after it entered into a dealers care. Why it was treated that way and how long has that sort of thing been going on.

All the testimonials from people across the plethora of threads that have erupted on this forum from people who have bought clearly abused, disturbed and sometimes drugged horses from a certain dealer, sometimes with the incorrect passports, papers and even ages, go look for yourself.

You are coming across as defending some of the dealers actions whether or not you are doing that is irrelevant as all people can go on is what you post. If you feel you have been slighted then maybe you should have thought your course of action through and not posted until you had actually looked at the questions and how they would come across. Actions have reactions you have to be aware of that on public forum and in life.


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## CatStew (28 November 2012)

This is an important thread - please don't ruin it.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (28 November 2012)

CatStew said:



			This is an important thread - please don't ruin it.
		
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agreed H&L is wanting it closed by trying to get it turned into a slanging match, and has resorted to basic method to do that slinging insults.

Everyone pop on user ignore maybe then they will go away ive had enough.


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## kerilli (28 November 2012)

ChristmasSparkles said:



			I'm failing to see the relevance of any questioning regarding the horse needed when it comes down to a video, made public nonetheless, of a horse getting basted no less than 20 times in nor more than a minute or two.


In what world, is THAT acceptable. No horse 'needs' that or 'has that coming for it', regardless. If any one is still in that frame of mind around horses, then, you need to quit your day job frankly.


Fine, anyone feel free to question the [previous] owner, question everything else you feel like questioning...but ultimately, it comes to down that act shown on the horse surely.

I see NOTHING to question with that.
		
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Yes, exactly. The video stands alone. ANYONE who knows horses can see that that horse was NOT a bronco, was NOT dangerous, was being goaded into bucking. 
The age of the horse, the previous history, how long it had been there, the fact that it had been sedated, the fact that there are videos which were already in the public domain of it going sweetly with a rider on... these are just further nails in the coffin, but the basic fact remains, that was out-and-out ABUSE and CRUELTY.
I hope these people decide to leave the horse business completely. Why work with horses if you hate them? Please, if you're reading this, go and do something else with your lives. Horses don't EVER deserve that kind of treatment. Finding it funny makes it even worse.


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## CatStew (28 November 2012)

Xmas Beastie said:



			agreed H&L is wanting it closed by trying to get it turned into a slanging match, and has resorted to basic method to do that slinging insults.

Everyone pop on user ignore maybe then they will go away ive had enough.
		
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Will gladly do this but, how do you put ignore on please?


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## Amymay (28 November 2012)

CatStew said:



			Will gladly do this but, how do you put ignore on please?
		
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Go to your profile, and into settings - there's an edit Ignore list.  You go in there and add the name of the person you wish to ignore.


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## woodtiger (28 November 2012)

Could someone please put the link to the LLF Facebook page? I couldn't find it....


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## Amymay (28 November 2012)

woodtiger said:



			Could someone please put the link to the LLF Facebook page? I couldn't find it....
		
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http://www.llfsporthorses.com/

http://www.facebook.com/llfsporthorses.llf?fref=ts


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## CatStew (28 November 2012)

Thanks amymay


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## heroandleander (28 November 2012)

I too want this post to remain , what i dont want is abuse when i have simply asked two questions (not probed) i have stated quite clearly i do not condone ill treatment of any animal and also while im at it i for one would like to see this whole situation brought out in a court


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## CatStew (28 November 2012)

Regarding the website and any other website these people make, is there a way that the people who provide the website for them could be contacted to shut them down?  Surely there must be a company who provides the 'space' on the internet for them and they wouldn't want to be associated with this type of person, surely?  (I'm clueless about the internet - but that's probably apparent from this post!)


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## Amymay (28 November 2012)

CatStew said:



			Regarding the website and any other website these people make, is there a way that the people who provide the website for them could be contacted to shut them down?  Surely there must be a company who provides the 'space' on the internet for them and they wouldn't want to be associated with this type of person, surely?  (I'm clueless about the internet - but that's probably apparent from this post!)
		
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There are hundreds of hosting companies out there - and I'd think you'd have a hard time persuading whichever is hosting theirs to close it down, tbh.


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## woodtiger (28 November 2012)

amymay said:



http://www.llfsporthorses.com/

http://www.facebook.com/llfsporthorses.llf?fref=ts

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Thanks AmyMay! X


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## heroandleander (28 November 2012)

A public forum where you cant have an opinion without being vilified. Shakes head.


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## Diddleydoo (28 November 2012)

kerilli said:



			I hope these people decide to leave the horse business completely. Why work with horses if you hate them? Please, if you're reading this, go and do something else with your lives. *Horses don't EVER deserve that kind of treatment.* Finding it funny makes it even worse.   

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Well said


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## kirstykate (28 November 2012)

amymay said:



			There are hundreds of hosting companies out there - and I'd think you'd have a hard time persuading whichever is hosting theirs to close it down, tbh.
		
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I am sure that if enough of use reported them on Facebook we could get their page closed???


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## kit279 (28 November 2012)

Popsdosh - this must have been a huge shock and a horrible experience for you.  Hope alls well that ends wells and the little horse finds a safe home.  I'll PM you about it in a bit.


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## Amymay (28 November 2012)

kirstykate said:



			I am sure that if enough of use reported them on Facebook we could get their page closed???
		
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Facebook is different, worth a try.


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## fine_and_dandy (28 November 2012)

heroandleander said:



			A public forum where you cant have an opinion without being vilified. Shakes head.
		
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Apparently you were only asking two questions (according to you) so what opinion were you expressing??

I've been following this thread and haven't commented thus far. I just wanted to say well done to everyone and I'm so glad Tic Tok is back in a safe place


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## Achinghips (28 November 2012)

Their username on this forum isn't much of a hide. I notice the "meet the staff" on the boyfriends website isn't working ...


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## Amymay (28 November 2012)

Achinghips said:



			Their username on this forum isn't much of a hide. I notice the "meet the staff" on the boyfriends website isn't working ...
		
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No, there's hardly any info on there at all.


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## fine_and_dandy (28 November 2012)

Achinghips said:



			Their username on this forum isn't much of a hide. I notice the "meet the staff" on the boyfriends website isn't working ...
		
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amymay said:



			No, there's hardly any info on there at all.
		
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I noticed that yesterday when I tried to have a look. Can't find the report button for FB either.


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## CatStew (28 November 2012)

Is it possible for this thread to be stickied?  Hopefully if anybody viewing a potential horse does some research before buying they'll come across it and think twice.


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## vam (28 November 2012)

heroandleander said:



			I too want this post to remain , what i dont want is abuse when i have simply asked two questions (not probed) i have stated quite clearly i do not condone ill treatment of any animal and also while im at it i for one would like to see this whole situation brought out in a court
		
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But you didnt need to ask the questions. The first to do with why he was there in the first place was answered by the original owner earlier in the thread. 
The second wasnt relevant to the situation, to be honest neither was the first.
While you say that you are not probing there is a time and a place for such question and this is probably not it, as has also been said it isnt really anyones business. It doesnt matter why the horse was there, he was and was subjected to inexcusable abuse. 

I have been keeping an eye on this and am immensely pleased he is home safe,


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## lloyd (28 November 2012)

Excessive use of the whip is shocking in all circumstances , however it could be argued on the basis of this video in a court enviroment that it was being used as a corrective aid , unlike our racing friends who whip there horses even when they are doing the right thing and giving everything that have got.

I cant imagine this 51 seconds of video tells us the full story guys , but regardless he went too far.


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## fine_and_dandy (28 November 2012)

lloyd said:



			Excessive use of the whip is shocking in all circumstances , however it could be argued on the basis of this video in a court enviroment that it was being used as a corrective aid , unlike our racing friends who whip there horses even when they are doing the right thing and giving everything that have got.

I cant imagine this 51 seconds of video tells us the full story guys , but regardless he went too far.
		
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A court would have a hard time accepting that a whip was being used as a corrective aid when the horse wasn't actually doing anything to need correcting.

And as someone who is involved in law and putting cases before courts, my barrister and I would be pitching our case exactly like that if we had one like this


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## Amymay (28 November 2012)

lloyd said:



			however it could be argued on the basis of this video in a court enviroment that it was being used as a corrective aid , unlike our racing friends who whip there horses even when they are doing the right thing and giving everything that have got.

I cant imagine this 51 seconds of video tells us the full story guys , but regardless he went too far.
		
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Are you in any way serious??


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## kirstykate (28 November 2012)

amymay said:



			Facebook is different, worth a try.
		
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I have just done it so come on folks lets get to work


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## Amymay (28 November 2012)

kirstykate said:



			I have just done it so come on folks lets get to work

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What did you do?


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## fine_and_dandy (28 November 2012)

kirstykate said:



			I have just done it so come on folks lets get to work

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How do you do it? I can't see a report button or do you just message FB about it?


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## Sparkles (28 November 2012)

In racing, same as showjumping or any other sport [remember the show jumper last year who basted his horse in his showjumping round after a refusal? Same response to that as this has], there are rules for how many times it actually comes in contact with the horse, if I remember correctly? 

I'm not debating the same goes on behind closed doors in other parts of equestrian life, but it's all as bad as each other regardless who's doing it...in this instance, they have just been silly enough to post it publicly on their business account for all to see. The amount of time shown is irrelevant, to me anyway.
I agree, completely too far and shouldn't have been pushed to that to start with, whether it's a 'one off' or not for them. As far as then posting it, with laughter in the background.....Well, I'm dumbfounded by it all frankly.

Interesting reading on my FB with horsey friends who live and stable near by to said video, but I won't post anymore....


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## kirstykate (28 November 2012)

amymay said:



			What did you do?
		
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I just hit the report button, I am sure if enough of us do this something should be done? x


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## kirstykate (28 November 2012)

fine_and_dandy said:



			How do you do it? I can't see a report button or do you just message FB about it?
		
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Hey thats a good idea, off to message facebook as well


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## Mistletoeandawine (28 November 2012)

Has anyone looked at their twitter accounts? 

I don't want to post their names in case they are legitimate and un related, but if you are on twitter it may be worth a look?


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## Amymay (28 November 2012)

Mistletoe_anda said:



			Has anyone looked at their twitter accounts? 

I don't want to post their names in case they are legitimate and un related, but if you are on twitter it may be worth a look?
		
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Can you pm me?


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## lloyd (28 November 2012)

Fine and dandy unless you know something more about this than the video shows then we are both are in the dark to the circomstances leading up the the video being taken.

I can understand hiting the horse to make it go forward when its bucking or cat leaping as forward impulsion counteracts lateral movement - but why this dude was hitting the horse when it was just walking I cant understand.

My point is that that in other circomstances people are activly encouraged to whip there horses regardless if they are doing anything right or wrong - Yes Racing - its not right in my book to whip a horse for doing nothing wrong , so if your going to take this guy to court then is the jockey club co-accused ?


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## kerilli (28 November 2012)

lloyd said:



			Excessive use of the whip is shocking in all circumstances , however it could be argued on the basis of this video in a court enviroment that it was being used as a corrective aid , unlike our racing friends who whip there horses even when they are doing the right thing and giving everything that have got.

I cant imagine this 51 seconds of video tells us the full story guys , but regardless he went too far.
		
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Correcting WHAT, exactly? More than once that horse stopped in confusion, or went forward for a step WITHOUT A BUCK, and was then hit AGAIN, causing more bucking. It looked as if he was trying to teach it to buck fgs. Or, trying to break its spirit so that it would never buck again. Goading the horse to buck more... fgs. That is not training. 
The previous history is not necessary for anyone who can read a horse's body language, but when it is known (previous public vids of horse going sweetly under rider) it is even more damning. 
The full story? I suspect it is probably worse. I suspect the horse was remounted and subjected to further abuse after ditching the rider at the end of that video. Perhaps it was thrashed in the stable later. Perhaps it was given similar treatment the next day. I ****ing well hope not, for the horse's sake. 
As for it allegedly being a 'bad 'un'... I have told the owner, in person, that I will happily get on that horse myself, without a whip. I would happily lay my reputation (and my safety, I know!) that if ridden sweetly forward, with legs and voice only, there will not be any problem. That is not a bad horse.


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## CatStew (28 November 2012)

Mistletoe_anda said:



			Has anyone looked at their twitter accounts? 

I don't want to post their names in case they are legitimate and un related, but if you are on twitter it may be worth a look?
		
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could I be pm'd too please?


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## lloyd (28 November 2012)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lloyd  
however it could be argued on the basis of this video in a court enviroment that it was being used as a corrective aid , unlike our racing friends who whip there horses even when they are doing the right thing and giving everything that have got.

I cant imagine this 51 seconds of video tells us the full story guys , but regardless he went too far. 

Are you in any way serious?? 

....... yeah I am, your point ?


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## Lej09 (28 November 2012)

I normally follow and read posts on here as opposed to constructing my own, but I feel I ought to say something on this. 

I have been interested in Imperial Horses Ltd for a while after buying a horse from them. They often have a number of quality looking horses in that seem genuine and sound uncomplicated. On many occasions the horses often have a quick turnaround time, typically within a week. The reason for my interest was because I had problems with my horse, I asked for help with no such luck. 

I moved across the country earlier in the year onto a yard where by pure coincidence the yard owner had happened to buy a horse from Imperial Horses Ltd. a few years ago. They had untold problems with trying to get the horse. The dealers wouldn't allow the current owners chosen vet on site to undertake the vetting so legal advice was undertaken in order to do so, as a deposit had already been secured against the horse. Once access was gained for the vetting, after explicit instructions on keeping the horse stabled, the current owner arrived early to find the horse on the horse walker! They were offered a choice of two passports for the horse depending on what name they preferred!!! (I presume this was offered before the vetting!). At the time the dealer could not offer a coherent answer on where she got the horse from or how long she had had it. Each time she was asked the story was different on each occasion. Even after these years the horse is still untrusting and has blatantly been badly beaten at some point.

At the time there were also two vehicles on site with the same registration plates!

I am simply stating what I know. Not speculating.


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## Amymay (28 November 2012)

Sorry Lloyd, this is getting ridiculous.  This is not about Jockey Club rules but clear abuse of a horse.

If you want to compare the two, start a new thread.


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## heroandleander (28 November 2012)

lloyd said:



			Fine and dandy unless you know something more about this than the video shows then we are both are in the dark to the circomstances leading up the the video being taken.

I can understand hiting the horse to make it go forward when its bucking or cat leaping as forward impulsion counteracts lateral movement - but why this dude was hitting the horse when it was just walking I cant understand.

My point is that that in other circomstances people are activly encouraged to whip there horses regardless if they are doing anything right or wrong - Yes Racing - its not right in my book to whip a horse for doing nothing wrong , so if your going to take this guy to court then is the jockey club co-accused ?
		
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Agreed


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## fine_and_dandy (28 November 2012)

lloyd said:



			Fine and dandy unless you know something more about this than the video shows then we are both are in the dark to the circomstances leading up the the video being taken.

I can understand hiting the horse to make it go forward when its bucking or cat leaping as forward impulsion counteracts lateral movement - but why this dude was hitting the horse when it was just walking I cant understand.

My point is that that in other circomstances people are activly encouraged to whip there horses regardless if they are doing anything right or wrong - Yes Racing - its not right in my book to whip a horse for doing nothing wrong , so if your going to take this guy to court then is the jockey club co-accused ?
		
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I don't . What I am saying is that on the basis of your post, a whip is used as a corrective aid. When the horse is behaving, what exactly is the use of the whip going to correct? Just because other people in different circumstances are, in your words, actively encouraged to whip horses regardless, does it make it right for that to be the case in any other circumstances?

Of course not. If people have evidence of this type of behaviour going on in other circumstances, then perhaps they should come forward ad make it available for the relevant repercussions to be felt. I don't see what racing, the Jockey Club etc has to do with being co-accused in this particular case.

I am not taking these people to court; read my post properly, you will see I said that is how I would present my case


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## kerilli (28 November 2012)

by the way, a HUGE and heartfelt THANK YOU to HHO Admin for allowing this post to stay. Please play nicely, guys. We don't want there to be a reason to pull the post. 

lej09, similar stories are cropping up. there's one much earlier in the thread that is very similar to your own.    
I just want to state that this is not a vendetta, I have never had any dealings with any of these people. It just sickens me that they make money out of horses when they abuse and exploit them so blatantly. Sickening. I hope they give up the horse world and move onto vehicles - they can still swindle people to their hearts' content, but no animals will be harmed.


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## Polotash (28 November 2012)

kerilli said:



			Correcting WHAT, exactly? More than once that horse stopped in confusion, or went forward for a step WITHOUT A BUCK, and was then hit AGAIN, causing more bucking. It looked as if he was trying to teach it to buck fgs. Or, trying to break its spirit so that it would never buck again. Goading the horse to buck more... fgs. That is not training.
		
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Quite.


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## fine_and_dandy (28 November 2012)

kerilli said:



			by the way, a HUGE and heartfelt THANK YOU to HHO Admin for allowing this post to stay. Please play nicely, guys. We don't want there to be a reason to pull the post. 

lej09, similar stories are cropping up. there's one much earlier in the thread that is very similar to your own.    
I just want to state that this is not a vendetta, I have never had any dealings with any of these people. It just sickens me that they make money out of horses when they abuse and exploit them so blatantly. Sickening. I hope they give up the horse world and move onto vehicles - they can still swindle people to their hearts' content, but no animals will be harmed.
		
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Second that.


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## heroandleander (28 November 2012)

vam said:



			But you didnt need to ask the questions. The first to do with why he was there in the first place was answered by the original owner earlier in the thread. 
The second wasnt relevant to the situation, to be honest neither was the first.
While you say that you are not probing there is a time and a place for such question and this is probably not it, as has also been said it isnt really anyones business. It doesnt matter why the horse was there, he was and was subjected to inexcusable abuse. 

I have been keeping an eye on this and am immensely pleased he is home safe,
		
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The owner said he had been 'duped' into selling the horse to this dealer and had sold to a woman pretending to be someone else to which i suggested he could surely take legal action against if that were the case , also if you note from my earlier posts i asked whether the owner had said he was putting the horse to sleep as it has been suggested on other forums that that was his/her intention. Further from that i have answered ridiculous accusations insinuations and well just plain rubbish. Also i agree with Lloyd in that we only see a short clip and as for the videos on youtube of the horse before i think is irrelevant as again it is a short video clip. This is a public forum i am allowed an opinion as do the pirelli nuts


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## lloyd (28 November 2012)

amymay said:



			Sorry Lloyd, this is getting ridiculous.  This is not about Jockey Club rules but clear abuse of a horse.

If you want to compare the two, start a new thread.
		
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Sorry Amy are you the forum police ? If so can I get a pass to post on this thread ? 

I am making the point that if you consider that at this time whipping a horse for doing nothing wrong is abuse then we must agree that there is hypocrisy in the " Yeah you can hit a horse for doing nothing wrong after this point here for x amount of furlongs until this point here x amount of times."

In showjumping I dont see people whipping there horses for not making mistakes.


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## Lej09 (28 November 2012)

I read that post. It seems to be a common occurrence. It just shows how many *years* this has been happening and with so many people. 

You will be pleased to know that my friends horse is doing well despite his dark unknown history. He is still very shy and nervous, even with his owner, but it hasn't stopped them. At least he has a good home for life now!


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## Pink_Lady (28 November 2012)

kerilli said:



			by the way, a HUGE and heartfelt THANK YOU to HHO Admin for allowing this post to stay. Please play nicely, guys. We don't want there to be a reason to pull the post. 

lej09, similar stories are cropping up. there's one much earlier in the thread that is very similar to your own.    
I just want to state that this is not a vendetta, I have never had any dealings with any of these people. It just sickens me that they make money out of horses when they abuse and exploit them so blatantly. Sickening. I hope they give up the horse world and move onto vehicles - they can still swindle people to their hearts' content, but no animals will be harmed.
		
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Well said Kerilli


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## micramadam (28 November 2012)

kerilli said:



			If anyone wants to report the video, the page to register to report it online with the RSPCA is here 
https://www.rspca.org.uk/login?p_p_id=58*_58_redirect=/myrspca

I hope that the more people that report it, the more chance that something long-term will be done about these people. Tick Tock is safe from further VILE treatment, but other horses won't be so lucky.   

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Done.  


Have been following this and had to add this:

My feelings about the people responsible for this abuse is that they 
are the perfect example of the human trash in this world. I would love to vent my feelings on here but would end up being banned and I'm not going to give them the satisfaction. They WILL get your just deserts. Everyone now knows who they are and the you tube video has gone worldwide. Is also posted on a very well know Dutch forum so hopefully they will no longer be able to buy from anyone over here. 

Well done Bob Smith for making this public. You are a true hero and well done Tic Toc's owner for acting so quick. I'm relieved he is out of their hands. You have my full support in any action you take. Just wish I had my own land as I'd be on the ferry to come and pick him up. He looks such a sweetie![/SIZE]


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## Amymay (28 November 2012)

Ok, I give up.

Clearly the horse is dangerous.  Deserved its beating, and the beating it probably received afterwards.

The people on here who know the horse and the owners, clearly don't know them as well as they think they do.

And the two dissenting posters are right.




			In showjumping I dont see people whipping there horses for not making mistakes.
		
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And if this made any kind of sense, I may be able to understand what you're trying to say.....

And no I'm not the forum police.  I just don't understand what Jockey Club rules has to do with this thread.


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## Sparkles (28 November 2012)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/racing/article-2042306/Whip-rules-toughened-racing-jockeys.html

They're getting tougher and no doubt will keep getting scrutinised from pressure to keep decreasing it. So it's a not  a'void' subject at all.

I also refer back to the showjumper last year who was under the spotlight for excessive whipping.


Doesn't matter who or where it is. It's a hot topic regardless.


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## alainax (28 November 2012)

kerilli said:



			by the way, a HUGE and heartfelt THANK YOU to HHO Admin for allowing this post to stay. Please play nicely, guys. We don't want there to be a reason to pull the post. 

.
		
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This! 

As the arguements are running around in circles now I think on most forums it would get locked.


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## heroandleander (28 November 2012)

It seems here you are not allowed an opinion nor to ask a perfectly sensible question without being accused of being linked with said dealer. Very grown up.


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## fine_and_dandy (28 November 2012)

heroandleander said:



			The owner said he had been 'duped' into selling the horse to this dealer and had sold to a woman pretending to be someone else to which i suggested he could surely take legal action against if that were the case , also if you note from my earlier posts i asked whether the owner had said he was putting the horse to sleep as it has been suggested on other forums that that was his/her intention. Further from that i have answered ridiculous accusations insinuations and well just plain rubbish. Also i agree with Lloyd in that we only see a short clip and as for the videos on youtube of the horse before i think is irrelevant as again it is a short video clip. This is a public forum i am allowed an opinion as do the pirelli nuts
		
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So people don't agree with you (you still haven't answered my post  ) and we are called Pirelli nuts? 

Just as well I don't like tyre nuts really...



lloyd said:



			Sorry Amy are you the forum police ? If so can I get a pass to post on this thread ? 

I am making the point that if you consider that at this time whipping a horse for doing nothing wrong is abuse then we must agree that there is hypocrisy in the " Yeah you can hit a horse for doing nothing wrong after this point here for x amount of furlongs until this point here x amount of times."

In showjumping I dont see people whipping there horses for not making mistakes.
		
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Funnily enough, I can think of some high profile show jumpers who had bad publicity for doing just that. An incident at Hickstead springs to mind.

As far as I can see, amymay is making the point that unless you know something we all don't, the Jockey Club etc is nothing to do with this, and to make sure that the thread remains, to start a separate thread should you wish to draw a comparison between the two


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## cptrayes (28 November 2012)

heroandleander said:



			Only ignorance! Don't you know it is the worst thing in the world, next to wickedness?" !
		
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I think you'll find that ignorance is bliss actually H&L

And there are a lot worse things in the world than a little wickedness. Evil like the behaviour of those dealers would be one example. 


People, don't hold out hope for a prosecution. The publication of the video after it was made private by the owner of it was copyright violation and it will probably not be admissible as evidence.


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## popsdosh (28 November 2012)

lloyd said:



			Sorry Amy are you the forum police ? If so can I get a pass to post on this thread ? 

I am making the point that if you consider that at this time whipping a horse for doing nothing wrong is abuse then we must agree that there is hypocrisy in the " Yeah you can hit a horse for doing nothing wrong after this point here for x amount of furlongs until this point here x amount of times."

In showjumping I dont see people whipping there horses for not making mistakes.
		
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The difference here is if that severity of whip abuse was seen on a racecourse or filmed in a racing yard the perpetrators would have been banned from racing for life! and quite rightly so. A point I made earlier.
Unless the RSPCA take action over this then they get off scot free to carry on doing it ! Anybody fancy a whip round to explore a private prosecution?


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## stencilface (28 November 2012)

heroandleander said:



			It seems here you are not allowed an opinion nor to ask a perfectly sensible question without being accused of being linked with said dealer. Very grown up.
		
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The poster doth protest to much?


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## heroandleander (28 November 2012)

Amymay are you an adult ? I ask not to jest but seriously ? Not once have i condoned the 'beating' of any animal nor have i resorted to calling you a muppet (but dear it really is starting to shine gloriously from you) OF COURSE QUESTIONS SHOULD BE ASKED OF BOTH PARTIES ITS A PPPPPUBBBLLLIC FORUM !!!!!!


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## Polotash (28 November 2012)

lloyd said:



			I am making the point that if you consider that at this time whipping a horse for doing nothing wrong is abuse then we must agree that there is hypocrisy in the " Yeah you can hit a horse for doing nothing wrong after this point here for x amount of furlongs until this point here x amount of times."
		
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A racehorse understands that the whip is used to send it forwards and encourage it to speed up because it has been taught this through time on the gallops.

A newly backed youngster has no idea what the whip means, as it has not yet been taught to respond to a leg aid, and that this is backed up with the whip.

As another issue, the use of the whip on this video is not how a whip aid should be used (note, aid, not punishment). The vast majority of riders (i.e. ones on here who are commenting knowledgably) will tap with the whip to send a horse forwards and reinforce a leg aid, not raise the whip and whack it down to inflict pain.

You seem to have a vendetta which is not backed up with basic equine knowledge.


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## Amymay (28 November 2012)

heroandleander said:



			Amymay are you an adult ? I ask not to jest but seriously ? Not once have i condoned the 'beating' of any animal nor have i resorted to calling you a muppet (but dear it really is starting to shine gloriously from you) OF COURSE QUESTIONS SHOULD BE ASKED OF BOTH PARTIES ITS A PPPPPUBBBLLLIC FORUM !!!!!!
		
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I apologise, that was childish.

And you've asked your questions, and received your answers.


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## heroandleander (28 November 2012)

fine_and_dandy said:



			So people don't agree with you (you still haven't answered my post  ) and we are called Pirelli nuts? 

Just as well I don't like tyre nuts really...



Funnily enough, I can think of some high profile show jumpers who had bad publicity for doing just that. An incident at Hickstead springs to mind.

As far as I can see, amymay is making the point that unless you know something we all don't, the Jockey Club etc is nothing to do with this, and to make sure that the thread remains, to start a separate thread should you wish to draw a comparison between the two 

Click to expand...


So because i ask questions you feel its fair for me to be accused of being the dealer / being involved with the dealer ?


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## cptrayes (28 November 2012)

heroandleander said:



			So because i ask questions you feel its fair for me to be accused of being the dealer / being involved with the dealer ?
		
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You have not been accused. You have been asked a question in exactly the same way that you asked questions of Tic Toc's owner. Can you see now how offensive some of  those questions were?


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## lloyd (28 November 2012)

Im sure the showjumper didnt whip the horse excessively for getting a clear round though ! Unlike the jockeys who whipp there horses when they are leading a race !

Hitting a horse for doing nothing wrong is un excuseable in any circomstance , before we all get our knickers in a twist about this one example should we not also address whats going on a industrail scale up and down the country every week ?

As you can tell I have a real problem with ill treatment of horses , but we are all hypocrits if we vilify this guy whilst we build statues to frankie detory.


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## Hedwards (28 November 2012)

I've followed this thread, and up until now havent replied as have been on my phone and it wasnt playing ball.

I'm so pleased to see the horse is now back with the original owner, and no doubt getting the right kind of care and attention. Hindsight is such a wonderful thing, I can only send hugs and best wishes to you Popsdosh - must have been a horrific few days for you!

I saw the video last night, there arent really words to describe how it made me feel. It may only be a snapshot in time, however i saw enough to know that it was downright cruel and unnecessary use of force - even if the horse was misbehaving i cannot see how that kind of treatment would solve the issue. We also know the horse had been sedated and only on the yard a matter of hours... i dont really think i need to know anything else to realise it is just not right - regardless of racing or showjumping rules...

I also think this thread is to the credit of a lot of HHO users, its amazing what a small group of people can achieve when they work together!

Finally - its very sad that there will always be scumbags like this dealer/and their associates in the world, I just hope all this at least highlights the care you have to take when selling or buying a horse, and will prevent anyone falling for their cons again.


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## cptrayes (28 November 2012)

heroandleander said:



			Amymay are you an adult ? I ask not to jest but seriously ? Not once have i condoned the 'beating' of any animal nor have i resorted to calling you a muppet (but dear it really is starting to shine gloriously from you) OF COURSE QUESTIONS SHOULD BE ASKED OF BOTH PARTIES ITS A PPPPPUBBBLLLIC FORUM !!!!!!
		
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But H&L there are cases where one party is so clearly at fault, as in this case, that only someone utterly heartless would suggest that the owner has any questions to answer for simply having sold her horse to a dealer.


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## heroandleander (28 November 2012)

Where at any point were my questions to the horses owner in any way vicious uncalled for unfair or derogatory ? I asked why the horse had gone there (wondering if the horse has a history of behaviour) and asked if it was true the owner had sent him there as a last resort to being pts , his owner replied saying he had tried all he could to sell him ,, i simply asked how long for. How in ANY way are these questions unfair ?


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## fine_and_dandy (28 November 2012)

heroandleander said:



			So because i ask questions you feel its fair for me to be accused of being the dealer / being involved with the dealer ?
		
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Not at all. It is the type of questions coupled with the manner in which they were asked which raised suspicion. Going back through the thread, most of the answers were there already, and to me, it seemed unnecessary to go over old ground. The way in which you asked, to me, also appeared insensitive of the situation and slightly goading. But that is just my interpretation of the way you posted 

If you feel it was unfair of those members to accuse you of that, why did you then feel it fair to call people, "Pirelli nuts" and some slur to do with native breeds?


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## kerilli (28 November 2012)

Oh dear, are you having a meltdown heroandleander? That's a nasty shouting habit and a very dodgy stammer. Insults too, lovely.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. There's a saying about that... 

There are strict rules in racing, show-jumping and eventing about how many times one may hit a horse. One may NOT hit a horse hard enough to cause welts (which this horse had, I believe.) 
The whip in racing (which I personally do not condone) is used to encourage the horse to give his all, and is flashed down his side as much as used on him (and then it's a padded whip.) 
In eventing, there's an annual list published of riders who have committed violations, including Excessive Use of the Whip. It is carefully policed. 

The use of the whip in the video is INEXCUSABLE in anyone's book.


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## cptrayes (28 November 2012)

lloyd said:



			but we are all hypocrits if we vilify this guy whilst we build statues to frankie detory.
		
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No we aren't Completely different behaviour.


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## heroandleander (28 November 2012)

cptrayes said:



			But H&L there are cases where one party is so clearly at fault, as in this case, that only someone utterly heartless would suggest that the owner has any questions to answer for simply having sold her horse to a dealer.
		
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I am far from heartless , the owner claimed to have been 'duped' into selling to this particular dealer , i wondered which i am entitled to if the horse had a history of this behaviour. Im not condoning abuse on any animal of any kind and i dont think i deserve to be labeled heartless


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## fine_and_dandy (28 November 2012)

kerilli said:



			Everyone is entitled to an opinion. There's a saying about that... 

There are strict rules in racing, show-jumping and eventing about how many times one may hit a horse. One may NOT hit a horse hard enough to cause welts (which this horse had, I believe.) 
The whip in racing (which I personally do not condone) is used to encourage the horse to give his all, and is flashed down his side as much as used on him (and then it's a padded whip.) 
In eventing, there's an annual list published of riders who have committed violations, including Excessive Use of the Whip. It is carefully policed. 

The use of the whip in the video is INEXCUSABLE in anyone's book.
		
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Put more eloquently than I could!


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## Amymay (28 November 2012)

heroandleander said:



			Where at any point were my questions to the horses owner in any way vicious uncalled for unfair or derogatory ?
		
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I think when you read your posts back in the cold light of day you'll see quite clearly why they have caused upset to the owner.  

Insensitive, and quite frankly no one's business.


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## heroandleander (28 November 2012)

kerilli said:



			Oh dear, are you having a meltdown heroandleander? That's a nasty shouting habit and a very dodgy stammer. Insults too, lovely.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. There's a saying about that... 

There are strict rules in racing, show-jumping and eventing about how many times one may hit a horse. One may NOT hit a horse hard enough to cause welts (which this horse had, I believe.) 
The whip in racing (which I personally do not condone) is used to encourage the horse to give his all, and is flashed down his side as much as used on him (and then it's a padded whip.) 
In eventing, there's an annual list published of riders who have committed violations, including Excessive Use of the Whip. It is carefully policed. 

The use of the whip in the video is INEXCUSABLE in anyone's book.
		
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Yes kerrilli that same quote came straight to mind when i read your contributions


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## heroandleander (28 November 2012)

amymay said:



			I think when you read your posts back in the cold light of day you'll see quite clearly why they have caused upset to the owner.  

Insensitive, and quite frankly no one's business.
		
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You speak then on the owners behalf ?


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## cptrayes (28 November 2012)

heroandleander said:



			Where at any point were my questions to the horses owner in any way vicious uncalled for unfair or derogatory ? I asked why the horse had gone there (wondering if the horse has a history of behaviour) and asked if it was true the owner had sent him there as a last resort to being pts , his owner replied saying he had tried all he could to sell him ,, i simply asked how long for. How in ANY way are these questions unfair ?
		
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The question "how long had you been trying to sell him for?" , in the context of this thread, can only possibly be read as:

"had you been trying to get rid of him for so long that you were prepared to dump him on any dodgy dealer no matter how bad you knew they were?"

It is not an offence to sell to a dealer on the first day you have a horse up for sale. Thousands of people do it every year. The dealer was at fault here, not the owner.  The question cannot be read by any reasonable thinking person without seeing the implication of poor behaviour on the part of the owner, and that is why it is offensive.


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## Amymay (28 November 2012)

heroandleander said:



			You speak then on the owners behalf ?
		
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Sorry??


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## heroandleander (28 November 2012)

amymay said:



			Sorry??
		
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Apology accepted


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## fine_and_dandy (28 November 2012)

heroandleander said:



			Apology accepted 

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Your understanding of punctuation doesn't do much to recommend you!


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## heroandleander (28 November 2012)

fine_and_dandy said:



			Your understanding of punctuation doesn't do much to recommend you!
		
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Surely you are familiar with sarcasm ?


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## fine_and_dandy (28 November 2012)

heroandleander said:



			Surely you are familiar with sarcasm ?
		
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I am, see my above post


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## heroandleander (28 November 2012)

Ladies ladies i leave you to your weak tea and knitting hubbling and bubbling toiling and troubling until someone else comes along who doesnt jump on your bandwagon.


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## magic104 (28 November 2012)

heroandleander said:



			I too want this post to remain , what i dont want is abuse when i have simply asked two questions (not probed) i have stated quite clearly i do not condone ill treatment of any animal and also while im at it i for one would like to see this whole situation brought out in a court
		
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For the love of God as I and all the others have said all your questions had ALREADY BEEN anwered in earlier posts.  If you want to carry on asking then ask the owner via pm rather then add fuel to a very important thread that does not deserve to be pulled.  Either that or use your normal H&H name.  I for one am not interested in someone who has just joined asks one questions then concentrates all their efforts in being a troll.  I suspect you do have some involvement, a beef with the owner perhaps, whatever it is take it up via PM.


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## Pidgeon (28 November 2012)

Oh dear, some people seem oblivious to the fact that regardless of how long the horse was up for sale for etc, there is nothing that anyone can say to justify the appalling behaviour shown by these dealers to this horse. And yes abuse does happen all over by amateurs as well as professionals but not all are stupid enough to video it and then post it for all to see. H&L please stop this incessant drivel for a moment and think before you post again, some people do have feelings you know unlike others!


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## kerilli (28 November 2012)

heroandleander said:



			Yes kerrilli that same quote came straight to mind when i read your contributions 

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Very unoriginal and rather disappointing. 
My contributions to this and other, threads can stand on their own two feet, I believe. I did not know, when I started the thread, who the horse belonged to, or ANY of the history at all. It could have been a 15 year old with a bad history who was one step away from the bullet for being lethal, but it didn't look like it to me.  Anyway, that additional information was (and imho still is) immaterial. The video footage is incredibly telling to ANYONE who has a true understanding of horses and can read their body language. Unfortunately, from your contributions on this thread, I seriously suspect that you do not and can not, and that in fact having a dig at the horse's owner is your agenda.


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## ozpoz (28 November 2012)

Hell,I just made myself watch the video ( well done, Bobsmith)

Just horrible to watch the poor little honest horse.I'm afraid I only lasted 21 seconds.
 I am so glad he is back home and I cannot imagine how his owner coped with viewing those brutal people abusing his youngster.
I hope they get a lifetime ban from ever keeping a horse again.

This has been very hard to write without swearing.


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## heroandleander (28 November 2012)

Pidgeon said:



			Oh dear, some people seem oblivious to the fact that regardless of how long the horse was up for sale for etc, there is nothing that anyone can say to justify the appalling behaviour shown by these dealers to this horse. And yes abuse does happen all over by amateurs as well as professionals but not all are stupid enough to video it and then post it for all to see. H&L please stop this incessant drivel for a moment and think before you post again, some people do have feelings you know unlike others!
		
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Pidgeon dont you have some old barn to go c*** in ?


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## heroandleander (28 November 2012)

kerilli said:



			Very unoriginal and rather disappointing. 
My contributions to this and other, threads can stand on their own two feet, I believe. I did not know, when I started the thread, who the horse belonged to, or ANY of the history at all. It could have been a 15 year old with a bad history who was one step away from the bullet for being lethal, but it didn't look like it to me.  Anyway, that additional information was (and imho still is) immaterial. The video footage is incredibly telling to ANYONE who has a true understanding of horses and can read their body language. Unfortunately, from your contributions on this thread, I seriously suspect that you do not and can not, and that in fact having a dig at the horse's owner is your agenda.
		
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Kerilli i can assure you i am not 'having a dig at the horses owner' but instead asked questions relating to the incident , i have repeatedly stated i do not condone the mistreatment of any animal.


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## Jesstickle (28 November 2012)

I really think this thread ought to be locked now. It is quickly turning into a farce 

Shame, as it was such a lovely, uplifting outcome..


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## Pidgeon (28 November 2012)

Is that the best constructive response you can muster, oh dear, you're not very articulate are you? Perhaps you need to go away until you have anything constructive to contribute.


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## Mistletoeandawine (28 November 2012)

heroandleander said:



			Ladies ladies i leave you to your weak tea and knitting hubbling and bubbling toiling and troubling until someone else comes along who doesnt jump on your bandwagon.
		
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But still there are posts?


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## Venevidivici (28 November 2012)

H&L-thought you'd said you were going?


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## heroandleander (28 November 2012)

Pidgeon said:



			Is that the best constructive response you can muster, oh dear, you're not very articulate are you? Perhaps you need to go away until you have anything constructive to contribute.
		
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Ditto 'pidgeon' !


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## Jesstickle (28 November 2012)

heroandleander said:



			Pidgeon dont you have some old barn to go c*** in ?
		
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I reported this I'm afraid. Just so everyone knows it was me 

Hope you aren't offended Pidgeon but that was just rude and clearly a breach of T&Cs anyway


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## Pidgeon (28 November 2012)

Thanks am on phone so can't report it. Unfortunately some seem incapable of having a civilised discussion and resort to childish insults, hey ho, sticks and stones......


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## kerilli (28 November 2012)

Pidgeon said:



			Is that the best constructive response you can muster, oh dear, you're not very articulate are you? Perhaps you need to go away until you have anything constructive to contribute.
		
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I'm boggled, I always thought 'c***' was a noun, can't see it being a verb...  

heroandleander, the questions have all been answered earlier in the thread anyway, but, as I have tried to say a few times, but obviously not quite clearly enough, the video alone is evidence enough, surely? The age, history, blah blah blah of the horse are all totally immaterial. the video stands as proof of senseless abuse of the animal.


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## magic104 (28 November 2012)

lloyd said:



			Fine and dandy unless you know something more about this than the video shows then we are both are in the dark to the circomstances leading up the the video being taken.

I can understand hiting the horse to make it go forward when its bucking or cat leaping as forward impulsion counteracts lateral movement - but why this dude was hitting the horse when it was just walking I cant understand.

My point is that that in other circomstances people are activly encouraged to whip there horses regardless if they are doing anything right or wrong - Yes Racing - its not right in my book to whip a horse for doing nothing wrong , so if your going to take this guy to court then is the jockey club co-accused ?
		
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Are you for real???  You take a strange horse, sedate it, clip it, get on its back it bucks, you then start beating it, but it is ok?  Since when?  And to top it all there is the laughing beetch.  But we need to have the benefit of the doubt because "we afre in the dark to the circumstances leading up to the video being taken".  They picked the horse up Sunday pm the video was all over the internet Monday am.  Ummm yep can see why they had to reason to beat the living daylights out of a doped up 4yo.  What was I thinking when I got so upset at seeing him being treated in this way!!  Off to have a word with myself....


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## heroandleander (28 November 2012)

Venevidivici said:



			H&L-thought you'd said you were going?
		
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Why the concern ?


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## fine_and_dandy (28 November 2012)

jesstickle said:



			I reported this I'm afraid. Just so everyone knows it was me 

Hope you aren't offended Pidgeon but that was just rude and clearly a breach of T&Cs anyway 

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I sent admin a pm asking for it to be locked and not removed as it is important it remains  hope admin lock it and nothing more.


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## kerilli (28 November 2012)

please, Admin, don't remove this post because of a couple of trolls.


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## Venevidivici (28 November 2012)

Why would you think I was concerned?!?


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## heroandleander (28 November 2012)

kerilli said:



			I'm boggled, I always thought 'c***' was a noun, can't see it being a verb...  

heroandleander, the questions have all been answered earlier in the thread anyway, but, as I have tried to say a few times, but obviously not quite clearly enough, the video alone is evidence enough, surely? The age, history, blah blah blah of the horse are all totally immaterial. the video stands as proof of senseless abuse of the animal.
		
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If you check my earlier posts you will see my feelings on the video so please dont misrepresent me , i am being attacked for asking questions not for condoning what happened


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