# Do you smack your horses?



## Tonty Tont (8 October 2011)

I keep Tont in a field with 3 other horses, and I often give them a light smack as discipline. 

I only smack to give them manners, as I think it is important for them to respect me and not push me around. For example, I give them a sharp smack on their shoulder if the bite or barge into me.

Because I do reprimand them when they misbehave, they are always lovely mannered horses around me. However, around their owner, they barge into her, bite her, fight around her, and often knock her over.

So, do you smack your horses?

I often see people who say never smack your horses, so I thought it would be an interesting topic to discuss


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## Allover (8 October 2011)

I beat mine at least once a week, i find it helps to "keep them on their toes"


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## lovinyourwork (8 October 2011)

i have a youngster and i find a sharp tap on the nose helped big style when he bit me for the first time. he hasn't done it again. 

of course a barb wire whip also helps sometimes!!


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## Supertrooper (8 October 2011)

I don't as he has been smacked in the past and is very hand shy. I have worked alot on his manners as he had non when we got him a year ago and have done it in a consistent firm way xx


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## team barney (8 October 2011)

No I never hit mine, and I would be furious if I found out someone had been hitting them.

In my experience hitting a biter only makes them worse, and hitting a scared horse does nothing to help the situation or establish their trust in you.

I think you are well out of order smacking someone else's horses.


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## Megibo (8 October 2011)

this topics been done to death

but i do think that a sharp smack on the shoulder of a bolshy welsh doesn't go amiss. having said that, her behavior hasn't warranted a smack of late because it keeps her respect up when her behavior does call for it.


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## Merry Crisis (8 October 2011)

Wouldnt dream of smacking mine either, seems to me that if you need to do so the plot is lost.


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## Allover (8 October 2011)

team barney said:



			I think you are well out of order smacking someone else's horses.
		
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I dont


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## team barney (8 October 2011)

Allover said:



			I dont 

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would you think it ok to smack another person's child? I don't see any difference, especially if you aren't in charge of the training or day to day care of that animal.


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## angelish (8 October 2011)

Allover said:



			I beat mine at least once a week, i find it helps to "keep them on their toes"

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this ^ weather he needs it or not


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## Mince Pie (8 October 2011)

Yes I do, but I have found that once I have given them a slight slap once or twice they never need it again. Feel free to shoot me down, my horses are some of the best mannered on my yard.


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## Tonty Tont (8 October 2011)

Thank you for the replies, I find it interesting to hear people's opinions on such a controversial subject 

Team Barney - I still have the scars on my neck from where the one bit me, and because the barge, their owner has spent many nights in hospital after being knocked unconcious.


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## angelish (8 October 2011)

Allover said:



			I dont 

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neither do i ,my horse live's in a field with 2 other horses and one is a night mare he is a big dales who thinks he can just go "through" you or the gate or anyone else in his way 

i think he is down right dangerous and regularly (nearly every day) throw the gate at him hard so as to hit him on the shoulder ,he now has a lot more respect for me and behaves better around the gate way 

my other horse is a little nervious and shouting at him is enough so i don't hit him ,i think a lot depends on the horse but my bigger horse would be a night mare if i didn't hit him ,i actually keep a naughty stick in the stable and often whack him with it as i feel he needs it


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## Allover (8 October 2011)

I think "outsiders" should have every right to reprimand someone elses kid/dog/horse etc, i think it is part of the reason society is falling to pieces is because no one is allowed to tell any one else that they are behaving in an innapropriate manner unless they are the parent/guardian or owner. 

If any of my horses had behaved in an unruly behaviour towards another person i would expect that person to use whatever means they deem necessary to get my horse away from them, if my horse cant behave around others then it would have to take whatever it was given!


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## Jesstickle (8 October 2011)

I do if they deserve it and I wouldn't mind anyone else doing it either providing it was deserved and was delivered in a fair fashion.


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## jenbleep (8 October 2011)

I smack Charisma if I think she needs it, I hardly beat the girl but a smack will give her a shock as if to say "Oh Jenny doesn't like me doing that!" Come on she's a horse, I need to be really hard on her to hurt her. It's normally if she refuses a jump, she gets a smack on the bum. She gets a tap behind the leg if she spooks at something and turns for home, or starts to back up. I'd rather do that then end up on a car bonnet thank you very much!


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## StormyMoments (8 October 2011)

taz hasnt needed a smack too many times but when he is in the stable and he crushes me against the door because he wasnt to go out he will get smacks till he gets off and if that doesnt work i will knee him in the chest - hes 17.2hh im 5'2ft i dont wish to die thanks so shoot me down! 

and if he was misbehaving for someone else yes i would expect him to be disaplined- hes too big to have no manners!


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## Pedantic (8 October 2011)

jesstickle said:



			I do if they deserve it and I wouldn't mind anyone else doing it either providing it was deserved and was delivered in a fair fashion.
		
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Ditto


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## mirage (8 October 2011)

Yes,I've smacked our pony.She can be a bit bitey,for no particular reason,just if she thinks she can get you.She has bitten the girls before and tries to get me at least once a day,so she 'll get a smack if she tries it.

She is a Welshy and tries to push her luck at least once a day,usually a growl works,but if it doesn't a smack on the shoulder does.I can't have a rude bitey pony around small children.


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## Spyda (8 October 2011)

Yes. I smack mine _very_ occasionally but only when she's in that certain persistent, beligerant and dangerous mood, and _only_ after numerous verbal corrections. It happens maybe twice a year and involves one sharp smack to the lower chest or tummy along with a meaningful growl. It's never failed to bring her round to her senses and neither of us bears malice. Better that than 650kg of beligerant horse plunging around you willy-nilly. (Trust me!)

I certainly don't loose a night's sleep when it happens. It too infrequently does. And in any case, she gets FAR worse reprimands from the other horses in her field when she steps oversteps the line.

I did, however, STRONGLY object when the staff at the yard I was at were regularly whacking my horse in the face with the end of the lead rope to control her when she was getting fresh being ledi]in and out of the field. That is _inexcusable_ IMO. I am 5'1 and quite able to handle my big, althetic and highly strung young horse in and out of the stable, so expect the staff I employ to be able to do the same without resorting to abuse. All their efforts did was make her almost impossible to lead in hand for a while. Grrrrrrrrr...........


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## Annette4 (8 October 2011)

jesstickle said:



			I do if they deserve it and I wouldn't mind anyone else doing it either providing it was deserved and was delivered in a fair fashion.
		
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This.....a loud 'NO' is enough for Saffy so far and she's had one smack for trying to cow kick me when I was trying to pick to back foot up. Haven't needed to since.


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## scrunchie (8 October 2011)

Yes I do but only if needs be.

When I moved my big mare (the dominant one of the herd) her daughter (who's a 3 yo and around 14.2hh), who had previously been a lovely easy going thing, suddenly went powermad without her mum to keep her in check. She kept turning her bum to me and kicking out whenever I went in the field, taking no notice of my yells at her. One time I took my whip with me hidden down my welly, when she turned her bum to me I gave her a smack on the bum with it. 

It was dark so I'm not sure she knew it was me who hit her but she never did it again! She has returned to her previous good nature, and no, she isn't scared of me either - she still comes for cuddles and the incident has been more or less forgotten.


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## Marydoll (8 October 2011)

Yes i do if i feel it neccessary. I do think they need boundries to establish manners and acceptible behaviour .
I would not have any random on a yard lifting their hands to my horses, thats where i draw the line, mine are in a field of their own and are only handled by people i know and trust with them, and yes those people can dicipline them if they felt it was neccessary because i trust their judgement and know they will be treated firmly but fairly.


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## Fantasy_World (8 October 2011)

Children are not horses and also not so many moons ago it was considered acceptable to smack another person's child. Schools and punishment, the cane, ruler, birch, slipper and all that! Perhaps that is what is lacking in today's educational system and why we have so many ASBO kids and teenagers. But that is another matter.
A horse is a lot bigger than a child and with the ability to kill a fully grown man if the situation arose and a situation became out of hand.
Have I smacked someone else's horse, the answer is yes when that behaviour of the animal placed me in a position of danger because of the lack of education of the animal from its owner and it being allowed to take the ps.
Would I allow smacking of my own horses, yes if the situation arose in which one of mine was behaving like a total knob and needed a reminder of who exactly was boss.
Have I smacked my own horses yes, when any have either tried to kick out, barge or bite. It is bad manners and won't be tolerated. Watch the boss horse in any field. If the subservient horse does not comply by body language alone then it is usually followed by a sudden rush, a bite or a kick!
In any field or stable it is you ( the human) who is the leader. If a horse challenges this arrangement then they need to be brought into line as any horse would do to another. Only exception being that we as humans do not find it so easy to inflict a bite nor kick a horse as a reprimand.
The only time when such reprimands should not be used is on a horse that is reacting due to complete fear and any use of physical force would cause a negative effect. 
To a trained eye it is quite easy to tell the difference between a fearful horse and one that is bargy with few manners.
As for the smacking of biters making them more aggressive or scared well that depends on the reason that the horse is biting. If the horse is biting out of fear and in defence then of course physical force would just reinforce that unwanted behaviour.
However smacking a horse that is biting out of frustration, impatience or just being a brute is justified in my opinion. The better option would be to pre-empt the attempt to bite and block by putting an object in the way, ie a brush for bristles or anything else that would cause discomfort so that the said horse gets a shock for their own actions. This is not always possible though and I have found that a sharp tap around the nose area has sufficed in curing a horse of biting. No the horses did not become scared, in fact both the youngsters that were given a reprimand are very friendly and will crave attention.
A good book that discussed man's interaction with horses and understanding them is Talking with horses by Henry Blake which is a very good read.


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## Mince Pie (8 October 2011)

Fantasy_World said:



			Children are not horses and also not so many moons ago it was considered acceptable to smack another person's child. Schools and punishment, the cane, ruler, birch, slipper and all that! Perhaps that is what is lacking in today's educational system and why we have so many ASBO kids and teenagers. But that is another matter.
A horse is a lot bigger than a child and with the ability to kill a fully grown man if the situation arose and a situation became out of hand.
Have I smacked someone else's horse, the answer is yes when that behaviour of the animal placed me in a position of danger because of the lack of education of the animal from its owner and it being allowed to take the ps.
Would I allow smacking of my own horses, yes if the situation arose in which one of mine was behaving like a total knob and needed a reminder of who exactly was boss.
Have I smacked my own horses yes, when any have either tried to kick out, barge or bite. It is bad manners and won't be tolerated. Watch the boss horse in any field. If the subservient horse does not comply by body language alone then it is usually followed by a sudden rush, a bite or a kick!
In any field or stable it is you ( the human) who is the leader. If a horse challenges this arrangement then they need to be brought into line as any horse would do to another. Only exception being that we as humans do not find it so easy to inflict a bite nor kick a horse as a reprimand.
The only time when such reprimands should not be used is on a horse that is reacting due to complete fear and any use of physical force would cause a negative effect. 
To a trained eye it is quite easy to tell the difference between a fearful horse and one that is bargy with few manners.
As for the smacking of biters making them more aggressive or scared well that depends on the reason that the horse is biting. If the horse is biting out of fear and in defence then of course physical force would just reinforce that unwanted behaviour.
However smacking a horse that is biting out of frustration, impatience or just being a brute is justified in my opinion. The better option would be to pre-empt the attempt to bite and block by putting an object in the way, ie a brush for bristles or anything else that would cause discomfort so that the said horse gets a shock for their own actions. This is not always possible though and I have found that a sharp tap around the nose area has sufficed in curing a horse of biting. No the horses did not become scared, in fact both the youngsters that were given a reprimand are very friendly and will crave attention.
A good book that discussed man's interaction with horses and understanding them is Talking with horses by Henry Blake which is a very good read.
		
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^^^ excellent post.


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## Spring Feather (8 October 2011)

I very rarely have to smack any of my horses.  They are extremely well handled and have good manners taught to them.  I am very consistent with my horses and they know how to behave.  Occasionally a youngster can get a little above himself so one quick snap back down to earth does the trick and then firmer handling from there on in.

Two things I will always always smack for is biting and kicking a person.  No horse would ever be allowed to get away with that on my yard without being physically reprimanded; a sharp smack immediately has always worked.

I do not allow anyone to hit my horses willy-nilly but should any of these horses go to bite or kick the person they know they have my consent to give a quick immediate hard smack.  I will not have a person put at risk.

Smacking a horse versus smacking someone's small child, there is no comparison.  Horses have the potential to seriously injure or even kill people.


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## Equilibrium Ireland (8 October 2011)

I do find it strange that people who dabble or live by NH decide no smacks ever. And we are meant to believe we are communicating in their language.

Have you all seen the language of horses in herds? When you are unruly you get a wallop of a kick or bite. 

I live by the 3 second rule. If you are in a bad situation in which you are possibly harmed such as biting, kicking, or barged through then you have 3 seconds to "kill" them. As in a smack on the shoulder or belly. After a few seconds the moment is lost and the horse really has no clue what they've done wrong. Same as in a herd. Punishment is swift and done. 

Having said that I've had all mine for a bit now bar the yearling. I know when something is coming and usually the "barn voice" is all that's needed. But if you forget who you are or your manners you will get a smack. 

This aren't puppy dogs. These are big 1000 pd animals that can hurt or kill you. I'm not going to treat them as pets. Not too be confused with I don't love them and or I like beating on my horses. 
Terri


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## JenTaz (8 October 2011)

i would kill someone if i caught them hitting my horse they dont know his past or that he can be very head shy wonder what they would do if i hit them for having no manners, he gets told off if being bolshy but its a slap on the shoulder hes usually well mannered as it is


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## Nailed (8 October 2011)

If my horse is being a prat then yeh. She will get a clout on her shoulder or rump.

I warn her verbally, then I warn her my movement.. then she get a clout if she still continues to be a naughty marey.

In the wild, a horse is taught to respect other members of the herd through physical agression..


However, I draw the line at a horse being hit/punch in the face.. Thats just too far.

Loux


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## jennifer83 (8 October 2011)

jesstickle said:



			I do if they deserve it and I wouldn't mind anyone else doing it either providing it was deserved and was delivered in a fair fashion.
		
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same


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## JoJo_ (8 October 2011)

I occasionally give my horse a sharp smack on the shoulder if he is being rude, usually not moving back when I tell him or trying to barge. He is well mannered most of the time. I wouldnt mind someone else doing the same but would be annoyed if anything more was done to reprimand him as he is a good boy. Not just with me but the yard staff who turn him out in morning and bring him in during the winter for me say he is one of the best to handle.

I wouldnt smack anothers horse unless it was trying to bite me and the owner wasnt there to reprimand it.


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## darkhorse123 (8 October 2011)

i will smack my boys shoulder when he "smacks " me - ie kicking out when im doing his feet. 
I know hes not in pain, he is being rude and bad tempered so yes when he tries to smack me with his hoof i do smack back on his shoulder - saying that when he is beign good he gets lots of "good boys " and strokes  too
Funnily enough ive not had to smack him in a long time - and its always with my hand, and most importantly done intentionallly -  ie not in out of control temper


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## redheadkelj (8 October 2011)

team barney said:



			would you think it ok to smack another person's child? I don't see any difference, especially if you aren't in charge of the training or day to day care of that animal.
		
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I'm sorry, but there is a HUGE difference between a child and a half a ton (or more) of animal that can potentially cause a lot of damage to someone! There is no comparison! If a horse in the wild did it to another horse they would get a sharp kick. I don't think a quick tap on the shoulder or a flick of the nose for biting is going to hurt them!


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## Syrah (8 October 2011)

Yes I do when it's needed but I wouldn't smack someone elses horse.

I have a 15.2 Welsh Sec D, she's built like a brick s*** house and does need discipline very now and then. 

99% of the time she's a dream, but she is a typical Welsh and has that 1% when she's on one.

The other day I was putting her boots on, she lifted her hind hoof to kick out, she got a slap on the bum and quickly put it down.  She sometimes swings her bum in my face when she's in a mood, again she gets a growl and a slapped bum and doesn't do it again.

Most of the time a growl and a telling off is enough but if it's dangerous - ie a hoof could land in my head or I could end up squashed - she'll get a slap.

My poor beaten horse greeted me with a whinny, head over the stable door and a nuzzle today, I hadn't seen her for a couple of days


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## LaurenM (8 October 2011)

The way the post is written makes it sound like you hit other people's horses. I really hope this isn't the case.

I find a growl works a lot better so no, wouldn't smack mine.


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## Piglit (8 October 2011)

Never smack, never shout. I tend to block, or push quite agressively. If a block winds up in a sharp feeling then so be it, but I never ever go out and smack. If I have to do something then it's a very sharp push or pinch.


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## Spring Feather (8 October 2011)

Piglit said:



			Never smack, never shout. I tend to block, or push quite agressively. If a block winds up in a sharp feeling then so be it, but I never ever go out and smack. If I have to do something then it's a very sharp push or pinch.
		
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So you still physically reprimand your horses.  I think "smack" was meant as a general term rather than a specific all hands flailing about the place


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## FanyDuChamp (8 October 2011)

No, not really, there is really no need for hitting. 
FDC


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## JFTDWS (8 October 2011)

I'm quite happy to give mine a sharp smack if they're being rude or potentially dangerous, and I would encourage anyone else who had to handle them (or come into contact with them in a field) to do the same.  I rarely have to remind any of them of the rules, other than my yearling who can be a bit sharp at barging through the gate (better grass on the other side), thus I keep a schooling whip by the gate to remind him who's in charge.  I don't beat them or handle them unfairly - they don't seem too bothered, they're very friendly and easy to do, very happy in my company too 

I've shared fields with ill-mannered horses before and I have always handled them in the same manner as my own - I won't allow some 600kg beast to try and squish me!


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## brown tack (8 October 2011)

I have done in the past, but my last 3 horses I haven't had the need to. Maybe it's because I've become a better more experinced owner over the past few years, which is more then likely the case.

I find that I don't place myself in the way, and have a lot more patients. 

Mine respond well to a lound hiss or a no. Or if they enter my space I throw up my hands and that is more then enough.


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## Fools Motto (8 October 2011)

If the situation requires a smack, then I don't hesitate to do so. Like to meet/see those who say they are against it as I personally don't think that could be 100% true. And as someone has already pointed out, this has been done before.


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## ILuvCowparsely (8 October 2011)

Yes  when   i have too

  i playfully smack him each side of chops  he loves it then i grab his snout and shake it till his lips wobble   then he rest his head on my shoulder . he is like a kid loves a bit of rough horse play ( scuse the pun)


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## madmav (8 October 2011)

There is a world of difference, I think, between a smack and full on abuse. And horses aren't averse to being positively thuggish to each other. It's a bit like the difference between lightly smacking your child on the bottom to issue a quick reprimand from beating them. I don't have a problem with the former, but the latter is obviously wrong


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## orionstar (8 October 2011)

No I dont need to.  When Orion was 3 months old and double barrelled my mare when in a playfull mood I distinctly remember her telling him in a very severe voice "You'll be in a hole heap of trouble if you try that again" and he's been a paragon of virtue ever since


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## Black_Horse_White (8 October 2011)

I wouldn't smack someone else's horse, so I don't want someone else smacking mine.


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## ClassicG&T (8 October 2011)

I smack my pony if he has bitten/stomped/squashed me but only if he needs reminding that what he is doing is not right. Its just a smack on the shoulder and as he is built like a tank it doesnt hurt him, just remind him.

There is a horse in my field that i have had to smack a few times for chasing my pony away or trying to bite me or him but nothing horrible, just a reminder. 

But if the pony is well behaved, he gets treats


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## Tilda (8 October 2011)

I will give my horse a slap on the shoulder if she is trying to walk over me (doesn't happen very often as I have instilled good manners in her with firm consistent handling) and I have done the same with her field mates in the past if they won't move away so I can open the gate or tried to push the wheelbarrow over when poo picking. I know my yard manager has given her a smack on the chest/ shoulder as she can be quite grouchy and threaten to bite and I have no problem with this either. I would never hit a horse round the head regardless of what it did. My mare became very headshy suddenly last winter and we believe another livery had hit her over the head as Tilly was quite grumpy about people going past her stable and would put her ears back and go as if to bite. Everyone else would just give her a wide berth but this woman hated all other horses and obviously felt it was ok to belt her consequently she is now an ex livery! Tilly has now moved to an end stable that no one has to walk past!


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## fburton (8 October 2011)

Doesn't continuing punishment imply ineffective punishment in the past? Put another way - one shouldn't have to punish the same horse repeatedly for the same misbehaviour.


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## FoxTrotx (8 October 2011)

I must admit I gave my mare a damn good (flat handed) slap on the quarters when she kicked me when I was picking one of her back feet out but it was more of a reaction than a punishment (not one I'm particularly proud of). I think most of the time (I say most, I know there will be exceptions) if you're horse respects you and you understand his/her body language there shouldn't be any real need for smacking as a punishment.


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## Dolcé (8 October 2011)

I don't ever 'hit' any of mine for any reason but I have been known to give them a slap with either the palm or back of my hand if I need to remind them of manners and make them pay attention to what they are doing.  I would never raise a hand near their faces as I have seen too many head shy ones and would hate mine to be afraid of my hand.  It would usually be a quick flick onto a shoulder if they are being bargy whilst being groomed. Lil sometimes gets either a flick to the top of a hind leg or a gentle dig in the ribs with an elbow, along with a growl, because she will often snatch a hind when you lift it for the first time, it just depends where it is easier to get to her and she has come a long way from the cow kicking when she first arrived! It is never done to try to cause pain, just to prod them back to the moment.

I do think that there are occasions where a hard smack would be appropriate with some horses, I suppose it is down to each owner knowing their horse best.  I don't however think there is ever any excuse to beat them.


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## Shantara (9 October 2011)

I've only ever hit a horse so hard it made my hand hurt once. 

He was a frisky youngster and was getting FAR too 'playful' for my liking. I didn't mind the nudging, but when I felt his leg on my side when I turned my back, I knew what he was thinking. I spun round and whacked him as hard as I could with the back of my hand. It certainly made him back off, but neither of us held a grudge, he was back for sensible hugs within moments.


I've come across a few riding schools, where "beat it!!!" seems to be the only answer to every problem (Which are usually the rider's fault). It's just lazy and not nice to see.


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## Pale Rider (9 October 2011)

No, I don't smack or hit, ever.


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## muffinmunsh (9 October 2011)

Mine get a sharp poke with to fingers when naughty ... No, not in the eye, On the side or neck


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## millreef (9 October 2011)

*Yawn*, didn't we already discuss this already... quite a few times already?


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## Equilibrium Ireland (9 October 2011)

Fburton

Watch horses in the field. They still get punished from those higher up being idiots and who push the line. Apparently some just like to keep pushing. And sometimes in a herd situation you have disaster days in which the hierarchy is really challenged. A normal happy group can become chaos every now and again. Obviously lessons have not been learned. 

I have actually used certain pasture mates that can put manners on an unruly youngster better than I can. And no not to beat snot out of them but to show them there is a certain order to things. Works wonders. But you must know your herd. I had a yearling colt one time for a client. Absolutely spoiled rotten with zero manners around humans. There was no point in a well timed smack. So chucked him out my gelding Frank. He wasn't long about having manners. Frank never ever kicks. He threatens and he does bite the jumped up little gits


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## Equilibrium Ireland (9 October 2011)

Geez I hate hitting the wrong buttons! 

At any rate that colt came in a different horse. Mindful and respectful and I didn't have to lay a finger on him.

All this talk about communication and using horses body language to make us more connected and yet we ignore the unpleasant bits. No we'd be much happier in a round pen teaching them to piaffe at liberty. 

And I would never advocate a beating on any horse but feel anyone who does give a smack is an abuser than you just haven't been around very many horses. 

Terri


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## BonneMaman (9 October 2011)

team barney said:



			would you think it ok to smack another person's child? I don't see any difference, especially if you aren't in charge of the training or day to day care of that animal.
		
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LOL - if I could get away with it yes.  Some kids need a bloody good wallop!

Back on subject though - if I am in a field with some bargy horses trying to get mine out, I will use anything to hand to get them out of my way rather than being kicked!


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## EstherYoung (9 October 2011)

I live by the 3 second rule. If you are in a bad situation in which you are possibly harmed such as biting, kicking, or barged through then you have 3 seconds to "kill" them. As in a smack on the shoulder or belly. After a few seconds the moment is lost and the horse really has no clue what they've done wrong. Same as in a herd. Punishment is swift and done.

Having said that I've had all mine for a bit now bar the yearling. I know when something is coming and usually the "barn voice" is all that's needed. But if you forget who you are or your manners you will get a smack.
		
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^This

And once the three seconds are over, it's up to you to bring the status quo down again. Not to stay cross, not to be aggressive with them, but to carry on as if nothing happened. I think more damage is done to horses by losing your rag and getting angry and not thinking clearly, than is done by a well timed smack. When people say there is no room for emotion in horse training, that's what they mean - getting angry is an emotion.

I've distressed and confused my horses far more when I've dealt with them when I'm stressed out than I have on the very very few occasions when I've made a very well timed sharp reaction because a line has been crossed.


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## LizzyandToddy (9 October 2011)

I think there is a difference between a tap, and a 'smack'. A tap is simply the equivalent of what the horse would experience if it was doing something similar to another horse - bargey, bitey etc. This I would not object to any one doing to my horse so long as it was a valid reason.

I don't 'smack' my horse often at all. However in certain dangerous situations it has been necessarily, particularly when its stopped me landing under a car!! For those people that never 'hit' there horses, then hats off to you, well done. Unlike your horse mine is more than capable of being a rude and ignorant ******* at the best of times! And if it stops him doing it then I see no problem!!


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## Achinghips (9 October 2011)

No. Sensitive Tb gets a chest grab and twist if she won't listen to conventional methods and is becoming dangerous/bargy on the ground, though. A hit would cause more problems/flight.
Big lad  is an Angel - no need for correction and definately no need for punishment - yes, I'm lucky.


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## Rosie'smum (9 October 2011)

I have given rosie a tap on the nose for trying to eat her haynet as im putting it up, as a result she now stands happily behind me,(this also happens in the field) also with her tea i only have to show her the finger and she backs away and turns her head to i allow her to eat. 
Where as my friends horses try to eat hay while im tieing it up or snatch at it in the field and are generally rude.

I do admit sometimes I am a bit hand happy and then think after what have i done and regret it. But she is generally a well mannered horse now then when i got her and generally dont need to tap her.


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## Double_choc_lab (9 October 2011)

Yes if it warrants it - unfortunately if I put her on the naughty step and ask her why she chose to bite/barge (or whatever) mummy she doesn't say very much.

Likewise she doesn't give her field mates friendship bracelets or defriend them from facebook when they're naughty she does what she knows - nuzzles/grooms or turns her bum on them.


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## Theocat (9 October 2011)

I'll definitely smack my horse if it's required.  Amazingly, I hardly ever need to.


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## La Fiaba (9 October 2011)

I have smacked horses for biting or kicking out or generally doing something dangerous, depends completely on the horse, most often it has worked and horse stopped the behaviour. Some horses I would never dream of smacking. 

I have a horse that once bit me so hard on the ar$e I had a huge bruise for weeks, my immediate reaction was to smack her on the shoulder as I thought she was very bad mannered to do that, horse spun round and kicked out so fast that I didnt have a second to think and she actually knocked the cap off my head! 3 inches nearer I'd probably be dead. So before giving a horse a smack or trying to teach them some manners 'their way', remember they might just decided to teach you who's boss their way too!

So point of my post is to say, please be careful if trying to teach horses manners in this way, if we want to speak their language we must be ready for them to respond in their own language too


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## Tonty Tont (9 October 2011)

Thank you to all of those who replied, I've enjoyed reading all of the different opinions 

When I said smack, I meant a tap on their shoulder, not a thump. I only physically reprimand them very occasionally, it's not a daily thing 

On their own, the horses are lovely, but when they are together they become very aggressive. I would rather give them a smack than end up in a heap on the ground unconscious


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## MrsMozart (9 October 2011)

It's horses for courses.

We have one that is the rudest lad ever. He'd lost any manners long before we got him. Over the years they've come back to some extent, but it's pointless smacking him as he'll just keeping going (barging). You have to get inventive with moving bits of him around (he no longer bites or kicks, just barges/tanks off occasionally now).

Grey Mare would be devastated if she were smacked, so a poke with a finger works with her.

Little Cob doesn't do anything these days to be reprimanded for.

Dizzy can be and is an **** if allowed to get away with anything. I let it happen once, and paid for it - she used her hind legs to get me to her teeth, which she used to hold me whilst she got me with her feet, and used her shoulder to squidge me in-between. When shes testing the boundaries her favourite is the squidge with the shoulder, where she gets a slap to tell her to back off; or the other one, which is to lift her head over mine, but not quite clear my head..., if I don't reprimand her she'll do it again, only a bit lower and faster; it bl00dy hurts! She gets a thump or a boot (flat of a welly) on the chest muscles for that, then she goes soft and loving and won't do it again for many months. She is a brilliant horse, but if she's allowed to push the boundaries back half an inch she'll take your head off.

I try and use body language and specific noises rather than anything physical, but if it's a dangerous situation I'll use whatever I need to to stay safe.

Horses definitely know the difference. In the field once with my last horse, Tiggy. I was taking her out and one of the two geldings that sometimes fought over her, went for me. I was just moving between her body (side on) and a big, solid gate post to undo the gate as one of the geldings came for me. Tiggy read the situation quicker than I did (I should have been quicker and protected her!). She arced her body around me, protecting me, and took the brunt of the blow from the gelding. If she hadn't either arced her body or taken the blow, I wouldn't be here. I must have been having an off day. Usually I knew there would be a chance that horse would go for whoever took Tigs out and I'd be ready for him, including smacking his butt or shoulder with a rope if I needed to. My inattention was noticed and the gelding thought he could get me. My fault.


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## JessandCharlie (9 October 2011)

Yep.

If one of my horses barges or threatens to kick out, that is unacceptable in my mind, and I have no problem giving them a slap. 

In biting, barging or kicking they are challenging me as a leader, so they're told off. End of.

J&C


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## fburton (9 October 2011)

Equilibrium Ireland said:



			Watch horses in the field. They still get punished from those higher up being idiots and who push the line. Apparently some just like to keep pushing. And sometimes in a herd situation you have disaster days in which the hierarchy is really challenged. A normal happy group can become chaos every now and again. Obviously lessons have not been learned.
		
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Often it's a matter of interpretation. I've watched horses interacting, for hours on end. Most of the kerfuffle I have seen in what one would expect to be stable groups, where the herd isn't being changed by horses being added and taken away, is due to inappropriate aggression from bullies. In that case, there is no provocation from subordinate horses. I have seen cases of youngsters being "disciplined" by adults, but they generally learn their lesson pretty quickly. TBH, I have not seen what you describe as "idiots who like to keep pushing". YMMV, of course. How often does this happen? If on a regular basis, it should be fairly easy to document on video by someone.

But this is all somewhat academic in my opinion, because we're not horses so aren't obliged to behave as they do or participate in their hierarchy disputes. Just because horses kick and bite each other from time to time doesn't mean we have to emulate that behaviour ourselves if there are alternatives which work, and horses understand, perfectly well - which there are.


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## amandap (9 October 2011)

fburton said:



			But this is all somewhat academic in my opinion, because we're not horses so aren't obliged to behave as they do or participate in their hierarchy disputes. Just because horses kick and bite each other from time to time doesn't mean we have to emulate that behaviour ourselves if there are alternatives which work, and horses understand, perfectly well - which there are.
		
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Trying to keep out of this one but I do agree here. 
Also, if you are going to use the 'horses do it to each other' model and be their 'herd leader' then imo they have a right to kick you back! After all you are aiming for them to think you're a horse! 
Surely establishing rules and respect for those 'rules' and each other is the important bit. I believe we should throw in our respect for horses as well, not just expect them to respect us! Using hitting when you have been warned by the horse and haven't listened is our fault not the horses imo.

It's taken me a long time to tease out where my thinking sits in the varied general horse world on these matters but I'm getting there I think.


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## scarymare (9 October 2011)

Yes very definitely if needed.  Horses are too big and powerful not to respect you.  My 3 month old foal was a nightmare and used to come at me rearing/bucking and squealing when I tried to feed her and her mum.  Not aggressive just over bold.  A single smack with a lunge whip (not the string bit) was all that was needed to get her to back off and wait by the bowls.  Sorry but I'm just not prepared to get double barrelled or risk injury and death just for an unmannerly horse.  I would never even raise a hand to her mother though.  The rest of them really don't need it tbh, although I do carry a stick when I'm doing the cob's feather mites - just knowing I've got it stops him striking out.


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## milesjess (9 October 2011)

Rarely... Mines quite sensitive and tends to listen to voice commands more.

However, on the rare occasion when he doesn't listen and it's required I will give him a tap. Wouldn't call it a smack, more of a nudge. Never on his face though as it's taken me long enough to gain his trust. 
If the situation arose though where he needed a firmer hand I wouldn't hesitate... It's not about being aggressive or abusive, it's about maintaining respect, boundaries and keeping a safe environment for us both. 

Some horses do need a firm hand though, where as others don't. IMO disipline is essential to a safe, healthy relationship with any animal.

Everyone treats their horses differently and have opinions they do and don't agree with. 

I love my horse but if he ever threatened to kick, barge, bite etc... Then he would be told in the way I see fit to deal with it, just the same if my dog was to growl or bite me... Not that they ever would haha


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## fburton (9 October 2011)

Well said, milesjess. Your point about using the firmness or severity necessary to establish and maintain boundaries is a very good one. Horses are individuals and knowing your horse is crucial for deciding (or intuiting, because a lot of this is down to "feel") what level of correction will be effective without overdoing it. Often it takes very little, and something less than a smack is quite sufficient. Going over the top, especially combined with getting angry, can undo good work and lead to a loss of trust - yet horses are incredibly forgiving. On the other hand, too wimpy a response can quickly lead to the horse simply ignoring you. Judging how strongly to react is one of the things that makes it hard to get punishment right - on top of having to react in a split second (I used to think 3 seconds was okay, but now think it is too late), and controlling one's emotions.


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## MagicMelon (9 October 2011)

team barney said:



			would you think it ok to smack another person's child? I don't see any difference, especially if you aren't in charge of the training or day to day care of that animal.
		
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Same here.  I would be livid if someone else smacked my horse!


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## Allover (9 October 2011)

MagicMelon said:



			Same here.  I would be livid if someone else smacked my horse!
		
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How would you feel if your horse injured another person?


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## blitznbobs (9 October 2011)

I smack if needed and would be livid if someone didn't smack
My horse if he bit kicked etc.., consistent message is needed - horses understand - just watch them together in the field they physically reprimand one and other...


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## Marydoll (9 October 2011)

blitznbobs said:



			I smack if needed and would be livid if someone didn't smack
My horse if he bit kicked etc.., consistent message is needed - horses understand - just watch them together in the field they physically reprimand one and other...
		
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Really ... And if tney dealt with a bite as they went by your horse by punching his face or striking his face with a stick, would you still be happy ?
What im saying is, some folks have no respect with how they dicipline their own horses and will do so in an extreme manner, ive seen what ive described done to a horse for just being there, not charging anyone down or threatening but just being at the gate simply because the person was an agressive pig and thats how tbey treated their horse. Never give anyone carte blanche to lift their hands to your horse


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## OneInAMillion (9 October 2011)

I will give mine a smack for discipline. 

RE: smacking other peoples horses all depends on the situation for me.
An example I rode a friends horse whilst she was on holiday, I had to get it out of the field it shared with 2 others, the other 2 got very over crowding with me and I felt very vulnerable and when one snaked its head at me I did give it a smack, but I feel it was warranted for my safety


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## scarymare (9 October 2011)

blitznbobs said:



			I smack if needed and would be livid if someone didn't smack
My horse if he bit kicked etc.., consistent message is needed - horses understand - just watch them together in the field they physically reprimand one and other...
		
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I must admit I had to really hold myself back from smacking my friend's horse the other day (she was there).  It double-barrelled mine (I was mounted) and as I had owned her horse before her it was almost reflex.  Stopped myself though cos I don't think she would have ever forgiven me.  She adores it but it really did need a firm instant reprimand not the cuddle she gave it.  Bet it will do it again.


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## Katie__Connie (9 October 2011)

Depends on the horse IMO, and what you class as a smack. There's a big difference between a full on hit and a light tap


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## indie999 (9 October 2011)

I wouldnt routinely but my big bellowing NO NO NO usually works for the old boy....however on the rare occassion it has decided to have a bit of fun with me ie on a windy mad day galloping by with a buck..I wouldnt hesitate to lob a stone/stick and have taken the lunge whip in but as I say this is a rarity. Most of the time he is as docile as a lamb! 

I agree it would be easy to make a horse headshy etc and yes I have smacked and it hurts my hand. I do push away if I get a pushy horse and I wouldnt put up with messing around and expect respect. But its striking(sorry pun not intended)a happy relationship, I do want to make their time with me pleasant enjoyable too. At the end of the day they are bigger and stronger than us and most of the time they dont realise it! Thankfully.


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## Dizzydancer (9 October 2011)

i have smacked my own horse and other peoples horses when my safety has been at risk. i would much prefer someone to hit my horse than to find out my horse had caused serious injury to someone else. I dont however ever smack a face, i tend to go for shoulder or chest. 
I have also been known to 'bite' my pony. he was a naughty thing who used to bite for the sake of it not due to being scared or worried. So instead of smacking him i reprimanded him like i was his leader and bit him ( a pinch of his skin basically) he soon learnt not to do it and i told other people who handled him to do the same.
Horses need consistency and a firm hand is sometimes required at the end of the day they are much bigger than us and smacking them with our bare hands is not actually going to cause much if any pain in most areas of them its just a shock so they think. If you turn a naughty horse out in a herd and it does something wrong the ones higher up tell it off out of respect this is the same for with people. Agreed alot of the time a raised voice is all thats needed though


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## jenki13 (9 October 2011)

My horse came to me very nippy as she was always fed treats by the previous owners. Tried telling her off but it didn't work but one day she did it & I managed to smack her on the end of the nose within a second. She hasn't bit me again & I can feed her treats now with her waiting patiently.

I don't smack my horse around the face for any other reprimand. However I will give her a smack on the shoulder or on the side if she fancies cow-kicking me or swinging her bum towards me / being excessively bargey. A push & "move over" is usually enough to get her to stop pushing past or squishing me!

She also knows when she's being told off. For example she was a bit "fresh" walking out to the field the other day & decided to suddenly jump up, kick backwards & do a mini rear a sharp "Get Down" made her lead normally again until we got in her field where she attempted to run off then jumped, span, kicked (not at me) & general pratting about she got a "BEHAVE, STOP NOW! GET HERE" growl/shout. Stood & allowed me to take off the headcollar had the decency to look sheepish!  Did tank off across the field afterwards though 

Oh & I have smacked/pushed horses on the shoulder/chest if I've had to deal with them & they are being bargey & haven't responded to a voice command. I wouldn't take a whip to these horse & I also know them well enough to know they aren't going to be upset by me asking for some respect.


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## foxyroxy1 (9 October 2011)

I do...

the right place and time....never a beating. Just a reminder to her that even at 16.2 I am her boss as she is only 4 and gets a bit pushy. I would also like to think that 'good trusted' friends would do the same for her....I wouldnt want her being naughty to others.

just my thoughts.....

and they arent children they're animals theres a slight difference


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## LaurenBay (10 October 2011)

Yes, I have hit her before. She's very opionated and stubborn and really tried it on with me when I first got her. For an example, I went to turn her out, as soon as I opened her stable door she barged at it and almost knocked me flying! she got a slap around her chest and a loud "NO" she's never done that again. I also know my YO has hit her too, but I trust my YO judgement and if she does hit Ruby I know it's for a good reason.

Would I hit someone elses Horse? Yes, In fact I hit one of my YO Horses the other day for rearing when I was bringing her in, She's 16 and knows better! She got a slap on the belly and that was it. I told my YO and she said she would've done the same thing.


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## ATrueClassAct (10 October 2011)

I don't hit mine since she knows exactly when shes done something wrong. She jumps to the back of the stable when she's done it so you can't get her. Not that ive ever tried since she is 22 and quite nervous(Arab aswell) but shouting seems to work just as well.


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## Sarah1 (10 October 2011)

Generally no, I don't need to.
However, he once bit me when he was much younger - it really hurt & I gave him a sharp smack just as a reflex - he's *never* bitten me since and he's not headshy or scared of me so I guess it worked!
FWIW, I don't think you're out or order for hitting the other horses if they were being disrespectful tho were I the owner I would expect you to tell me what you'd done.  If Bailey was rude, barging and biting someone I would expect them to reprimand him immediately - actually I would be mortified if he behaved anything other than 100% for someone other than me!!!!!!!!
I don't think you can liken it to hitting a child - horses are far more dangerous than a toddler!  Also THEY ARE HORSES NOT BABIES!


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## Sarah1 (10 October 2011)

Black_Horse_White said:



			I wouldn't smack someone else's horse, so I don't want someone else smacking mine.
		
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Really?  I find that interesting - how would you deal with something, that didn't belong to you, that was being rude or even aggressive? 

You must be a really quick runner...


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## Amaranta (10 October 2011)

team barney said:



			would you think it ok to smack another person's child? I don't see any difference, especially if you aren't in charge of the training or day to day care of that animal.
		
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Sorry but there is no comparison here, a small child can not do the damage a half ton horse barging through you could do and yes, if someone else's horse was trying to run over me or my horse (usually because the owner has not taught the horse any different) then I would most certainly smack it one.

I rarely, if ever have to smack mine but then they are happy within their boundaries (set out by me) and don't usually feel the need to barge, kick or bite their leader.


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## Pat10 (10 October 2011)

team barney said:



			would you think it ok to smack another person's child? I don't see any difference, especially if you aren't in charge of the training or day to day care of that animal.
		
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Oh how I'd often love to smack another person's child - usually in the supermarket when they're running out of control and screaming all over the place. Unfortunately, I'd be arrested for it!


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## fburton (10 October 2011)

Amaranta said:



			I rarely, if ever have to smack mine but then they are happy within their boundaries (set out by me) and don't usually feel the need to barge, kick or bite their leader.
		
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Are you comparing yourself to "herd leader"? How can you tell which horse is the "leader" in a herd? And is this horse protected from being kicked by virtue of "leader" status?


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## Rockchick (10 October 2011)

Both my horses are very well mannered both in the stable, in the field, on the yard etc and dont ever push, barge, bite, kick etc on the  extremely rare (in fact i cant remember the last time) occasion they "forget" themselves i can usually rectify it by using the training method theyre used to (natuaral horsemanship) and move their bodies about etc, however i have also given them a short sharp smack on occasions... never near their faces / heads though and thats usually enough to remind them - as it never usually happens.

From a ridden perpective I also carry a stick but rarely use it unless they are ignoring my leg / voice etc and i need them to "be" somewhere for whatever reason.

I have on occasion given other horses a short sharp smack where theyve needed it (for example one launched at me over a stable door and went for my face) but again NEVER near their heads


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## Flicker (10 October 2011)

Personally, no.  My horse would have a nervous breakdown.  He is very well-mannered and responds to pressure and voice.  I can't think of any situation where I'd need to smack him.

On the other hand, I was holding a horse for someone else and it bit me on the boob.  Hard.  It took every ounce of willpower in my body not to plant him one!


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## MerrySherryRider (10 October 2011)

With other people's horses, I always work as though the owner was present and therefore, any action I take, would not be unacceptable to them. In a herd, with an aggressive horse, I carry a lead rope, with the metal end in my hand and if needed, swing the rope in their direction or, if threatening to kick or knock me down, they'd get a flick on the shoulder or rump. I do tell the owner, so they are aware of a problem and we can discuss how to resolve or manage it in a way that is acceptable and effective. Very often, bolshy horses are just 'shouting' loudly and a confident but gentle nudge and verbal command is surprisingly all it takes to take them to back up.

Basically, I see needing to smack as an emergency measure to stay safe, and which highlights a training or management failure that can be addressed. Repeated smacking is a failure on the part of the owner or handler.


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## xTrooperx (10 October 2011)

i dont but i have clapped at him to stop what ever he was doing.. i guess im a little odd


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## AMH (10 October 2011)

Sorry - how can it be possible to compare smacking a half-tonne animal with no skills of verbal communication to smacking a child?


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## fburton (10 October 2011)

AMH said:



			Sorry - how can it be possible to compare smacking a half-tonne animal with no skills of verbal communication to smacking a child?
		
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I'm inclined to agree horse / child comparisons are a bit dodgy.  However, I read Teambarney's original comment as meaning that in general one should not treat another person's horse as if it were your own - just as you wouldn't treat someone else's child as if it were your own. Maybe TB meant something else, but that's what I understood it to mean.

(Personally speaking, I am a bit naughty in that I will sometimes do what I think is right for the horse that has been given to me to handle, as if it were my own - which could include giving food rewards to encourage certain behaviours even if the owner wasn't particularly keen on that.)


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## AMH (10 October 2011)

Ah, now I'd have to draw the line at feeding - I think that's a different thing, although I can't really explain why! I wouldn't hesitate to smack someone's horse if it bit me (although not on the nose), but wouldn't feed someone's horse, regardless!


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## amandap (10 October 2011)

Deleted.


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## Spotsrock (10 October 2011)

my own, yes, just a light tap as that is how they would address each other, they understand and a polite horse is a safer horse, someone elses? NO. Not unless it is immediatly endangering me, otherwise, their bad manners are their problem, not mine, I would be livid if I thought someone else was smacking my girls or fatboy.

I am constantly battling a family at the yard for feeding my lot, theirs nudge, niggle, grab and bite and they are always moaning about it and wanting to hand feed mine because they are so polite and cute. Mine behave like that because they are not hand fed willy nilly!


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## fburton (10 October 2011)

AMH said:



			Ah, now I'd have to draw the line at feeding - I think that's a different thing, although I can't really explain why! I wouldn't hesitate to smack someone's horse if it bit me (although not on the nose), but wouldn't feed someone's horse, regardless!
		
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That's what I thought people would think! I mentioned it to be provocative (and hence, in character ) - although it is actually quite true.

It might be interesting to explore what makes smacking different from treating. I can't really agree they are different - they are both about behaviour modification (or _should_ be!) and both have the potential to cause harm if done improperly.


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## team barney (10 October 2011)

fburton said:



			I'm inclined to agree horse / child comparisons are a bit dodgy.  However, I read Teambarney's original comment as meaning that in general one should not treat another person's horse as if it were your own - just as you wouldn't treat someone else's child as if it were your own. Maybe TB meant something else, but that's what I understood it to mean.
		
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this^^^  Perhaps if I had said dog instead of child I might have mad my point a little clearer, I just don't think it is right to clump someone else's animals full stop, including their kids  

The problem with accepting other people reprimanding your animals is they often don't know when to draw the line.  I have seen people clump other's horses for fidgeting, for nuzzling (no attempts to even nip). I knew one horse who had perfect manners that the yard owner decided to "educate", she beat him in his stable to teach him to move automatically to the back when she mucked out (I dealt with this horse before her abuse and you only had to ask and he would move over) after she had finished with him he was a nervous wreck. 

None of mine bite, one used to but not anymore, hitting would never have cured him (the dealer tried that and only succeeded in making him worse).


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## amandap (10 October 2011)

team barney said:



			The problem with accepting other people reprimanding your animals is they often don't know when to draw the line.  I have seen people clump other's horses for fidgeting, for nuzzling (no attempts to even nip). I knew one horse who had perfect manners that the yard owner decided to "educate", she beat him in his stable to teach him to move automatically to the back when she mucked out (I dealt with this horse before her abuse and you only had to ask and he would move over) after she had finished with him he was a nervous wreck.
		
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Also if various people are handling or hitting/smacking a horse in various ways with various rules the horse is in a no win situation.  It's not surprising some horses get confused and 'rebel'!


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## noodle_ (10 October 2011)

if she hurts me yes of course....but mostly on her flabby bits - its more of a "hey" than anything!

although she lashed out to kick the other day, she got a very sharp crack for that....

i have no objection to my friends who i trust putting her in her place - the horse could do me/them far more damage!....

never ever more than once at a t ime if that makes sense lol.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (10 October 2011)

If my horses barge/hurt me then they get a row, either with voice or hand or both. I have told others who are handling my horses that if they stick a toe out of line then wallop them. 500kgs vs 70kgs, no contest really, no respect = pain and accidents for either or both of us depending on the situation.

I only ask for manners when I am there with them, they can do what they like the other 20 hours of the day.


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## Amaranta (10 October 2011)

fburton said:



			Are you comparing yourself to "herd leader"? How can you tell which horse is the "leader" in a herd? And is this horse protected from being kicked by virtue of "leader" status?
		
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Yes and yes, if you watch horses, the true herd leader does very little, it is the 2nd in line who does all the work.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (10 October 2011)

team barney said:



			this^^^  Perhaps if I had said dog instead of child I might have mad my point a little clearer, I just don't think it is right to clump someone else's animals full stop, including their kids  

The problem with accepting other people reprimanding your animals is they often don't know when to draw the line.  I have seen people clump other's horses for fidgeting, for nuzzling (no attempts to even nip). I knew one horse who had perfect manners that the yard owner decided to "educate", she beat him in his stable to teach him to move automatically to the back when she mucked out (I dealt with this horse before her abuse and you only had to ask and he would move over) after she had finished with him he was a nervous wreck. 

None of mine bite, one used to but not anymore, hitting would never have cured him (the dealer tried that and only succeeded in making him worse).
		
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So I am in a shared field getting my horse out and yours comes over as I am coming out of the gate and tries to go over the top of me, shouting and waving the leadrope is doing nothing horse still continues to come, i hate to tell you but after that i would be walloping it before horses and people end up hurt.


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## cob&onion (10 October 2011)

My TB bit me finger once expectantly and it really bloody hurt!! my instant reaction was a smack on the nose - she never did it again!!
I don't normally smack my horses though, infact i rarely shout at them neither, but they are well behaved and have good mannors


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## fburton (11 October 2011)

Amaranta said:



			Yes and yes, if you watch horses, the true herd leader does very little, it is the 2nd in line who does all the work.
		
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You mean the 2nd is the pushy one? Yes, one sometimes sees that, but as with other aspects of herd dynamics there appear to be no hard and fast rules.


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## AMH (11 October 2011)

team barney said:



			this^^^  Perhaps if I had said dog instead of child I might have mad my point a little clearer, I just don't think it is right to clump someone else's animals full stop, including their kids  

The problem with accepting other people reprimanding your animals is they often don't know when to draw the line.  I have seen people clump other's horses for fidgeting, for nuzzling (no attempts to even nip). I knew one horse who had perfect manners that the yard owner decided to "educate", she beat him in his stable to teach him to move automatically to the back when she mucked out (I dealt with this horse before her abuse and you only had to ask and he would move over) after she had finished with him he was a nervous wreck. 

None of mine bite, one used to but not anymore, hitting would never have cured him (the dealer tried that and only succeeded in making him worse).
		
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As with everything, interpretation is key. To me, 'smack' would be tantamount to a slap on the shoulder or an elbow in the ribs. I'd only administer such treatment if the animal wasn't respecting my space and was risking hurting me. I would never hit a horse with anything other than my hand (except of course carrying a stick when riding, lunging or doing groundwork). 

Physical chastisement, as far as I'm concerned, goes too far when it results in the animal anticipating it or expecting it as a matter of course, eg with a head shy horse.

There's a fine line between respect and fear, and I think there are some people who just don't undertstand how to tread that carefully.


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## Pale Rider (11 October 2011)

People who smack animals, dogs horses, whatever just prove that they have no clue.


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## McNally (11 October 2011)

Just an observation here! I work on two yards one where the horses done get smacked one where the owner is in my opinion go's too far with them at times. 

At yard 1- the horses are generally a bit more difficult in that they may bite or kick when they are being brushed or rugged and they can be strong/bargey to turn out etc

Yard 2- generally i never get threatened with kicks or bites and they lead beautifully- however if on the odd occasion one snaps at me they then spin and lash out in absolute terror as they are expecting a beating- like i say this is very rare as they are easier to handle anyway.

Just something i've noticed and been quite interested in, its like the disciplined ones are better, its worked but maybe its a warning not to over do reprimanding? I am very in between with my horses- they would get told off, maybe smacked if they did something wrong but i wouldn't lay into them- they are all lovely easy well mannered horses- even our 4 year old has never bitten.


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## fburton (11 October 2011)

That is an interesting observation, McNally. I've encountered horses where it's obvious they have been reprimanded before, probably in an over-the-top way like you said. You just need to raise a hand and they will shy their heads away, blinking rapidly. It's sad to see, and it make doing anything near their heads a little bit harder because you need to remember to move ultra softly the whole time. It makes me want to say to them "It's alright, I'm not going to hit you". I want horses to behave nicely, but to feel relaxed in my presence, not constantly wary or fearful of being told off.


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## Ibblebibble (11 October 2011)

can't remember the last time i had to smack one of mine, but i do use my body to block attempts to nibble from the youngster, ie i raise my elbow as he leans in to have a nibble and he gets a bump on the nose, if i'm leading one and they start drifting too close then again the elbow comes out and bumps them, it's not smacking but more a physical deterent always used with a vocal deterent too.
And i use a similar tactic with the daft young mastiff who currently thinks it's fun to jump up at me, if he's close, as he comes off the ground i raise my knee and it meets his chest , it's enough to make him change his mind, if he's doing a flying leap then i move myself out of reach and he flops to the floor like a dropped jelly
I try not to get into physical battles with anything bigger than me, because if it escalates they are going to win every time


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## Marydoll (11 October 2011)

I think it's important to point out that because you discipline your horse with a smack, does not mean you beat  the crap out of them, I do smack mine on the rare occasion it's needed, none of my guys are head shy or cower in a corner in my presence.
Let's keep things in perspective, horses who aren't smacked are not all bargy, biting beasts, but horses who do get a sharp reminder of manners are not all quaking quivering unpredictable wrecks


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## fburton (11 October 2011)

marydoll said:



			Let's keep things in perspective, horses who aren't smacked are not all bargy, biting beasts, but horses who do get a sharp reminder of manners are not all quaking quivering unpredictable wrecks
		
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No, I think that's right. The quivering wreck situation just shows what can happen if punishment is overdone.


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## AMH (13 October 2011)

marydoll said:



			I think it's important to point out that because you discipline your horse with a smack, does not mean you beat  the crap out of them, I do smack mine on the rare occasion it's needed, none of my guys are head shy or cower in a corner in my presence.
Let's keep things in perspective, horses who aren't smacked are not all bargy, biting beasts, but horses who do get a sharp reminder of manners are not all quaking quivering unpredictable wrecks
		
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This, totally sums it up


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