# Farmer's - a question



## Amymay (26 March 2013)

Why did farmers leave stock on the land, rather than bring them in when the heavy snow started?


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## RoseGrey (26 March 2013)

Maybe they didn't check the forecast, maybe they don't have anywhere else to put them, maybe they didn't think it would be so bad, maybe they couldn't be bothered...?

Whatever the answer, its a damn good question. 

There is simply NO excuse for not protecting your animals.


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## bonny (26 March 2013)

It's march and I guess alot of them got caught out with how much snow we had and how long it's lasted for.....also alot of farmers don't have enough indoor space for all their animals, sheep are made to live outside anyway !


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## amandap (26 March 2013)

RoseGrey said:



			There is simply NO excuse for not protecting your animals.
		
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I don't think it's that simple myself. The weather has been very extreme in areas not used to snow, it came down very quickly (overnight) in some areas and it hasn't gone away!

I vaguely remember my parents sheep and cattle having to have air dropped fodder in the 1960's. Providing my memory is right, I don't remember enough buildings to house them all even if they could have got them in.


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## Twizzel (26 March 2013)

I think the majority don't have the space to bring all livestock inside, especially sheep, when you are lambing 700+ ewes... they come in to lamb in batches and are back out within a few days of lambing.


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## martlin (26 March 2013)

Hardly anybody will have enough buildings to house ALL their sheep, especially with lambing in full swing, the ewe lambs, barrens and late lambers just have to rough it out. I would also imagine that nobody expected it to be THAT bad, sheep can survive in snow etc.
Anyway, my thoughts are with those fighting to find and recover their stock


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## Trinity Fox (26 March 2013)

I am glad you have brought this up,I am fed up of looking at sheep near us lame, left out in all weathers with no feed shelter.
Huge sheds standing empty and food on site sheep screaming at me when they see me feeding horses.

When we had the bad snow a couple of years ago we were left feeding sheep as the person who owned them used to come and check on them every couple of months if that.
There is even a person who has been banned who is keeping them in somebody else's name, I know not all farmers are like this but we see so much sheer neglect and my dad always comments he does not want to comeback as a sheep in another life.

Half of them near us do not even do basic checking we are always having to get them up on there feet after being down for so long and gassing up,we have also found them with eyes pecked out etc so the fact many were not brought in does not surprise me in the least.
It is very frustrating and depressing.


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## Dizzydancer (26 March 2013)

Nice question- not always possible and actually iv seen a few stories on news of the ones being bought in buildings collapse so they are stuck anyway. 
The large amount of snow is unheard of for a long time in many areas hit by it. I live just on edge staffs moorlands and only once in past 30 years has there been drifts like this in my area. So people have been caught out i certainly didn't expect to wake up to 10ft snow drifts on majority of roads and even now most roads are down to single track not double. 
My thoughts are with the farmers and volunteers helping dig them out and save what they can- when the thaw happens that will be a sad time for lots of sheep farmers.


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## Dizzydancer (26 March 2013)

TF that's a shame but not common practice, sheep are hardy and designed to withstand all weather. My YO brings her small flock in every winter and it drives me mad as its not what they need! They do have feed out tho. 
These farmers on tv are devastated and it couldn't have happened at a worse time with lambing in full swing. Poor things.


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## Orangehorse (26 March 2013)

I don't think anyone could have predicted just how cold and how much snow there was going to be.  Snow can get deep very quickly and with the wind blowing there are soon big snowdrifts.

This time of year is usually OK, the worst of the winter is over - it is spriing after all.  Lambs are OK in cold weather, it is the combination of cold, wet, wind that kills them.
It is unusally cold, the grass hasn't grown, farmers can't house all their sheep, the snow came on quickly.

Adult sheep are supposed to live out - they have a thick fleece and many would say that it is more healthy for the lambs to be born outside (in a normal year).  It is extreme weather that leads to adult sheep dying - and this has been extreme.  

Every dead lamb is a loss, and the end of 12 months of work of caring for the sheep.  It will be another 12 months to wait before another lambing.

AS for the farmer above - these tend to take grass keep for several hundred sheep and live a long way away from the flock and yes, they often don't care much.  It is probably cheaper for them to take the losses of lame sheep or dead ones than to call the vet.


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## Trinity Fox (26 March 2013)

I do keep telling myself it is not common practice but it is not an isolated incidence or even one person, you are right about it being cheaper to just leave them to die and absorb the losses but they are living animals and my father has never kept animals like this nor would he ever.

As for the person who never came to check he asked us would we,yes I did and did expect nothing in return but he would not even come when needed or even to pick up or dispose of the deadstock.

I honestly do think welfare of animals is getting worse not better at the moment.


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## justabob (26 March 2013)

amymay said:



			Why did farmers leave stock on the land, rather than bring them in when the heavy snow started?
		
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Do you really think that farmers have the facilities to bring hundreds of sheep inside. These sheep that you have seen on television, in front of your fire no doubt, are hill sheep. They are bred to lamb outside, the weather was predicted but what can they do in freak conditions. The commitment to lamb in march was when the ram was put to the ewes in the autumn. These farmers are mostly hill farmers and dont have the luxury of huge agricultural buildings to lamb inside. The losses of indoor lambing due to infection, miss mothering and scour are rife. I take exception to the posters who are blaming farmers for what they are thinking is neglect. This has been a terrible time for sheep farmers and they are working around the clock in this disasterous lambing season.


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## mon (26 March 2013)

We haven't the room the ones which lambed Jan early feb are out in fields to make room for next group, then when lambs are at foot need extra room, buildings are expensive and not always allowed to build them.  Every business has to run close to capacity to earn a living, same as why doesn't all horse places store all hay for winter, some can some can't, plus lots of hill sheep are never housed, we are midlands and have lost a few lambs due to a combination of wet cold and snow, heard of one farmer picked up 75 lambs.


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## scrunchie (26 March 2013)

I agree with other posters - most farmers simply haven't got the sheds to put them in. My sis-in-law is a sheep farmer and they don't have any sheds except an open sided barn to store hay, and a couple of old stables that they house the dogs, feed and other bits and bobs in. Most years they have a handful of ewes and lambs inside the stables, usually the orphan lambs and surrogate mums.

I blame the media hype. As soon as a single snowflake falls on a pavement anywhere in the UK, the journalists wet themselves to cover the 'story' and tell us how we are all going to freeze to death. Most of us look like this  when we watch the news.


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## Dolcé (26 March 2013)

I think a huge part of the problem was the strong easterly wind causing massive drifts, the sheep shelter by hedges/walls etc and sadly they have been buried in the drifts.  I understand that there are also a lot of cattle in the same predicament. The main problem is that if they are not dug out then any that survive being buried in the drifts (and they do survive it quite often) will drown when it thaws.  I feel so sorry for the farmers affected and hope that local communities are rallying round to help them dig out where possible.  Sheep are hardy and should be able to live out without a problem, for those farmers that do have barn space I would imagine that the lack of forage and bedding, caused by last years rainfall affecting harvests, would have to be taken into account. So very, very sad for all concerned.


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## mon (26 March 2013)

Our early lambs and ewes are strawed down on a hard track at moment like a open tunnel so that they are safe, not let any march lambs out for a week so they are like sardines with sheep lambing everyday, although we are now on tail enders but fields so wet that doesn't help either.


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## justabob (26 March 2013)

Dolcé;11656991 said:
			
		


			I think a huge part of the problem was the strong easterly wind causing massive drifts, the sheep shelter by hedges/walls etc and sadly they have been buried in the drifts.  I understand that there are also a lot of cattle in the same predicament. The main problem is that if they are not dug out then any that survive being buried in the drifts (and they do survive it quite often) will drown when it thaws.  I feel so sorry for the farmers affected and hope that local communities are rallying round to help them dig out where possible.  Sheep are hardy and should be able to live out without a problem, for those farmers that do have barn space I would imagine that the lack of forage and bedding, caused by last years rainfall affecting harvests, would have to be taken into account. So very, very sad for all concerned.
		
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Exactly as you have said. I live in Cumbria in an less favorable area, this is the land that farmers have, the sheep are indidgenous to the area. This is their income so they are not going to willfully neglect their sheep and go to the pub instead!! Got to love armchair farmers.


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## lachlanandmarcus (27 March 2013)

Trying not to get cross at some of the comments on here about the nasty farmers deliberately not bringing their sheep in or taking notice of weather forecasts. 

There are some bad farmers around but 99% of them if they had a shed to put them in and (perhaps more importantly and no one has mentioned it) someone flew in a massive supply of forage bedding and sheep nuts to FEED the sheep on while they were in, and they had some way of getting to the sheep to bring them in, then believe me that is what they would do. 

Many sheep farms have thousands of sheep away off in remote locations. It is simply not possible to provide buildings for all of them, nor would it be necessary in 49 out of 50 years. Not possible physically and especially not possible economically. You ask your local supermarket what price per kilo they are paying for their lamb this year, and then look at the shelf price. In most cases it is 3 or 4 times the amount, the wholesale prices farmers are getting has resulted in them making no profit at all only losses this year, while the supermarkets rake in profits and customers rightly turn away from lamb as it is so expensive. 

Those that have buildings have them for lambing and often one ewe will lamb and stay in for a day and make space for another, they aren't always in at the same time. 

Lambing outdoors is (except in years like this) MUCH healthier for sheep, who are designed to live outdoors. There are many diseases which are much more of a problem for indoor lambing flocks and for which those flocks have to be given preventative drugs or treatment if and when they strike. From a welfare POV, in 49 out of 50 years, sheep are much BETTER off being outside, and you can't run a farm on the basis of one year in 5o and freak weather, nor should you be blamed for not doing so. If you had to, there would be NO sheep farming in the uk s it would simply be uneconomic. Instead it would all be imported from new Zealand, where sheep farming is all outdoors and more like ranching. There, if a sheep has trouble lambing, it and the lamb dies. The losses are accepted due to the sheer numbers 30k on one farm, and terrain means you couldn't do the kind of lambing care we expect from a welfare perspective in UK. Even there some years no profit is made. Demanding more sheds and bedding and feed in uk would just result in lower welfare from importing from systems elsewhere, you can't ignore that and just concentrate on demanding pet care standards.

Lastly, farmers decide when to lamb based on economics ( to finish a lamb the same year which is the only economic way to do it, you need to lamb in the winter not the spring). - late march lambing is late for commercial flocks and normally would mean decent weather and grass growing. Long range weather forecasts are complete ly unreliable this far out. 

So easy to pass judgement as some have done on this thread. Get a bus up and a shovel out and help dig out some sheep if you really care about welfare instead of passing easy trite judgements on farmers who may well lose everything. The suicide rate for farmers is one of the highest in the country. Support them or have low welfare imports instead, up to you.


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## cptrayes (27 March 2013)

I live in hill country and am currently awaiting a snowblower so that I can get out. We have banks up to eight feet high.

But there isn't that much snow. It was the wind that caused the problems, the fields are 95% clear of snow. The sheep sheltered from the wind under the walls, and the drifts fall exactly where they shelter, and for the same reason, the wind drops in the lee of a wall.

I do agree, though, that some farmers featured on the news the other night in the Isle of Man had been rather negligent in knowing that snow was forecast and failing to ensure that they had enough feed on site before it started. But the vast majority of farmers are NOT neglecting their sheep. It was tabloid journalism at its best.


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## mon (27 March 2013)

And if we routinely long term housed them be accused of intensify farming them.


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## Alec Swan (27 March 2013)

mon said:



			And if we routinely long term housed them be accused of intensify farming them.
		
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Exactly,  and those who lamb "in",  assuming that they have the space,  face a totally different set of problems from those who lamb "out".

My heart goes out to those who are digging out ewes which are barely alive.  It must be the most soul destroying of jobs.

Once in a while,  when we lamb "out",  we'll be caught out, and be lambing in torrential rain or blizzards,  and when that happens,  then we have high losses.  That's the way that it is.  It isn't just the financial loss,  it's the depressing waste,  and the fact that animals are suffering.  No one enjoys it.

We cannot predict the weather,  with any degree of accuracy,  and we are all victims,  on occasion.

Alec.


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## jrp204 (27 March 2013)

"I do agree, though, that some farmers featured on the news the other night in the Isle of Man had been rather negligent in knowing that snow was forecast and failing to ensure that they had enough feed on site before it started. But the vast majority of farmers are NOT neglecting their sheep. It was tabloid journalism at its best. "

Even though snow was forecast I doubt anyone anticipated how much would actually fall, this is an extreme event. It is easy to say that farmers should have had enough feed on site but in most cases this would have to bought in, nuts @ £250/t (1 tonne would not go very far) Silage @ £20 bale & straw £??, it is march and many farms will have used up most of their feed/straw meaning there will be little around to buy anyway. Farmers, especially in the areas affected will be on the lowest incomes and to find this extra money would be incredidbly hard. Even those who had bought in feed would still have to get it out to the animals and looking at the drifts i'm not sure you could move feed easily. 
My heart goes out to everyone affected, it is very easy to sit in your warm house and  criticise but as they say 'walk a mile in another mans shoes' or wellies in this instance.


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## Amymay (27 March 2013)

Thanks for everyone's responses.

I must live in cloud cuckoo land.


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## martlin (27 March 2013)

amymay said:



			Thanks for everyone's responses.

I must live in cloud cuckoo land.
		
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Of course you don't live in cuckoo land  I can easily understand your thought process there. It's only when you consider the practicalities in more detail, does it become pretty clear why all this has happened. And how else could you consider those practicalities if not just asking questions?
We have had pretty rough few years now with all this sheep farming malarkey, the weather is against us, the market is against us and we go from bad to worse in a steady progress, I suppose tempers are running a bit short, too, I know mine does.


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## Maesfen (27 March 2013)

For once, Amymay, I was disappointed in your original quite accusatory question because there have been such commonsense answers to it from the likes of Justabob, LLM, Dolce` and more.   My heart bleeds for those farmers in this situation especially as a farmer less than a mile from here found himself in the same situation with ewes snowed in and had to be dug out; we had 8 inches of snow, he had 4 foot; that is how random the wind has factored in this - and it's snowing again, deep joy!
TBF, I think I'm probably wrong (and in cloud cuckoo land!) in assuming that horse people would automatically appreciate the hardships the farmers are going through with this given the horrible winter most of us have gone through with conditions that we couldn't change even if we had wanted or been able to afford to.


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## martlin (27 March 2013)

It's pretty random weather, a village about 20 miles away from me has been on the news, JCBs digging cars out, people digging their stock out - I have no snow at all, but it's wet and bitterly cold and I've lost few lambs to that  Add to that a dead calf this morning and I am best not approached without caution


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## Dolcé (27 March 2013)

Maesfen said:



			For once, Amymay, I was disappointed in your original quite accusatory question because there have been such commonsense answers to it from the likes of Justabob, LLM, Dolce` and more.   My heart bleeds for those farmers in this situation especially as a farmer less than a mile from here found himself in the same situation with ewes snowed in and had to be dug out; we had 8 inches of snow, he had 4 foot; that is how random the wind has factored in this - and it's snowing again, deep joy!
*TBF, I think I'm probably wrong (and in cloud cuckoo land!) in assuming that horse people would automatically appreciate the hardships the farmers are going through with this given the horrible winter most of us have gone through with conditions that we couldn't change even if we had wanted or been able to afford to*.
		
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I was surprised at some of the comments made against farmers (not just on here) because I believed this too. Just as an aside, the road where our main herd are kept has been closed for days, as have the roads around it, purely because of drifting snow.  We have drifts several feet deep in parts of the field and nothing in other parts, where the wind has literally blown the snow off into the drifts.  I am only too aware that it could have been my ponies buried under drifts along the hedge line and consider myself very fortunate that they are all safe and well.  We have had a hell of a job getting haylage and water to them, even with a large 4x4 tractor but it has had to be done.  Had I lived in an area where farmers are having to dig out sheep then I would have been there offering help and I really hope they are getting the help they need so desperately from communities that are able to get to them.


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## BBH (27 March 2013)

I'm not a farmer and never have been but I felt desperately sorry for the farmers I saw on the television digging out their stock.

The snow drifts are the like of which I've never seen before and I was thanking god I don't have to work outside or on the land for a living.

It must be a terribly thankless task being a farmer, they are battling on all sides, rubbish supermarket buying costs, huge fodder / feed costs and no let up in sight of any cloud on the horizon.

Hats of to them.


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## FfionWinnie (27 March 2013)

There are many reasons why this isn't possible. 

Firstly, to assume all farmers have enough internal space for livestock is flawed. Our native breeds are bred to live outside, they are not used to being inside and would not like being inside which could lead to them not eating and also, disease is a big problem in housed livestock. They are much healthier outside.  Sheep by design, are the animals used to graze and therefore maintain our hills and mountains. These sheep are not high profit animals, margins are tight, having to build sheds to house them "just in case" would be impossible financially. 

Secondly, if you lamb and calve  outside, like I do, I only have a small shed in which I bring in any problem animals. The vast majority never see the inside of a shed. 

People who lamb inside will not have the capacity to keep animals with lambs at foot inside for very long either. You can cram pregnant animals in a smaller space in an emergency (disease and feed issues notwithstanding) but once they have lambs, keeping them too tight would be a disaster. 

Farmers have to produce food at the lowest price possible. To build sheds to house the national flock would be impossible financially and since free range IS best, the sheds would be empty for 50 years between seriously bad winters where these issues occur, and no doubt fall down when that amount of snow fell on them anyway. 

This years problems are due to the unseasonable amount of snow which has fallen. 

Lambing outside is better for the ewe, it is better for the lamb and it is better for the UK housewife who buys British lamb.


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## cptrayes (27 March 2013)

cptrayes said:



			I do agree, though, that some farmers featured on the news the other night in the Isle of Man had been rather negligent in knowing that snow was forecast and failing to ensure that they had enough feed on site before it started. But the vast majority of farmers are NOT neglecting their sheep. It was tabloid journalism at its best.
		
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jrp204 said:



			Even though snow was forecast I doubt anyone anticipated how much would actually fall, this is an extreme event. It is easy to say that farmers should have had enough feed on site but in most cases this would have to bought in, nuts @ £250/t (1 tonne would not go very far) Silage @ £20 bale & straw £??, it is march and many farms will have used up most of their feed/straw meaning there will be little around to buy anyway. Farmers, especially in the areas affected will be on the lowest incomes and to find this extra money would be incredidbly hard.
		
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I understand your point, but I am in hill sheep farming country with tiny farms, right on the bottom margins of farm income and all the farmers around here make provision for this kind of weather and still have fodder available. I have lived here 22 years and the latest that we have had to dig ourselves out is April 4th, but everyone still remembers a year when they dug out lambs in June. They allow for it and would not go into April short of food, never mind March.


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## FfionWinnie (27 March 2013)

Trinity Fox said:



			I do keep telling myself it is not common practice but it is not an isolated incidence or even one person, you are right about it being cheaper to just leave them to die and absorb the losses but they are living animals and my father has never kept animals like this nor would he ever.

As for the person who never came to check he asked us would we,yes I did and did expect nothing in return but he would not even come when needed or even to pick up or dispose of the deadstock.

I honestly do think welfare of animals is getting worse not better at the moment.
		
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It's not cheaper to leave them to die. They could be worth £120+ each and removal of fallen stock (mandatory) costs about £20 for a ewe.  Report them!

The type of person you describe is not the norm, how could anyone make a profit from lame and dead animals for a start. 

I lost a ewe hogg yesterday. Two had been attacked by dogs. They were still alive and on their feet (just) when I found them. I got them in a pen and phoned the vet. Half an hour later the weakest one had sat on the strongest one and suffocated it. Totally freak accident really, they had a huge space in the pen (enough for ten sheep) but I am kicking myself for not separating them or doing something differently even though I would never have thought of that happening. Anytime I lose an animal I feel bad and question if I could have done something differently. Thankfully, losing one is a rare occurrence for me, but I will be hacked off about yesterday's one for a while yet. And I look after hundreds of them!


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## lachlanandmarcus (27 March 2013)

cptrayes said:



			I understand your point, but I am in hill sheep farming country with tiny farms, right on the bottom margins of farm income and all the farmers around here make provision for this kind of weather and still have fodder available. I have lived here 22 years and the latest that we have had to dig ourselves out is April 4th, but everyone still remembers a year when they dug out lambs in June. They allow for it and would not go into April short of food, never mind March.
		
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We have a tiny hill farm too. And we could at a squash fit all our ewes in. It's the bigger farms that have the issue. I would bet that the farmers digging out in June did not get all of those sheep out alive by any means, just as they aren't now. And those years were not preceded by the wettest year for 100 years. These farmers aren't short of food as such, in some cases there hasn't been any available to buy or at any economic rates to stock up extra so that using their x ray specs they can have it there just in case. they may have orders in for loads of food bought and paid for but if no one can get to them to bring it in?

I go back to the fact that prices paid by the market for lamb have in many cases halved in a year, yet retailers have maintained the very high prices for lamb in the shops, making shoppers think farmers get that money or a good percentage of it, and they don't. If people want spare sheds and stockpiles of forage they should put pressure on retailers to treat farmers fairly and pay them a decent percentage of retail price. A big shed could cost £100k.


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## cronkmooar (27 March 2013)

cptrayes said:



			I do agree, though, that some farmers featured on the news the other night in the Isle of Man had been rather negligent in knowing that snow was forecast and failing to ensure that they had enough feed on site before it started. But the vast majority of farmers are NOT neglecting their sheep. It was tabloid journalism at its best.
		
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Obviously you don't live on the Isle of Man or you wouldn't be making such riduculous sweeping statments.  

Perhaps whilst you are slating these farmers you might also want to contact social services about the woman who with her children had to be airlifted from their home because they ran out of food?  Or how about a pop at the elderly that ran out of medication?  Or people that had to be evacuated by the emergancy services because they were literally freezing in their homes? How stupid of them to have oil fired central heating that needs electricity

You obviously have no idea of how bad the situation has been here or of the area these animals are kept in.

The weather was significantly worse than forcast, the Isle of Man is a small island that simply does not have the infrastructure of your country, but thankfully now six days later everyone now has electricity

Obviously us island dwellers can only aspire to be as perfect as those of you that have chosen to comment in such a derogatory fashion whilst knowing sweet FA about the true facts. 

Unbelievable


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## cronkmooar (27 March 2013)

Dolcé;11657497 said:
			
		


			I was surprised at some of the comments made against farmers (not just on here) because I believed this too. Just as an aside, the road where our main herd are kept has been closed for days, as have the roads around it, purely because of drifting snow.  We have drifts several feet deep in parts of the field and nothing in other parts, where the wind has literally blown the snow off into the drifts.  I am only too aware that it could have been my ponies buried under drifts along the hedge line and consider myself very fortunate that they are all safe and well.  We have had a hell of a job getting haylage and water to them, even with a large 4x4 tractor but it has had to be done.  Had I lived in an area where farmers are having to dig out sheep then I would have been there offering help and I really hope they are getting the help they need so desperately from communities that are able to get to them.
		
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At last the voice of reason!

FYI tractors have been no use whatsoever, but this is an Island with significant community spirit and one farmer had 70 people digging out livestock yesterday


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## cptrayes (27 March 2013)

cronkmooar said:



			Obviously you don't live on the Isle of Man or you wouldn't be making such riduculous sweeping statments.  

Perhaps whilst you are slating these farmers you might also want to contact social services about the woman who with her children had to be airlifted from their home because they ran out of food?  Or how about a pop at the elderly that ran out of medication?  Or people that had to be evacuated by the emergancy services because they were literally freezing in their homes? How stupid of them to have oil fired central heating that needs electricity

You obviously have no idea of how bad the situation has been here or of the area these animals are kept in.

The weather was significantly worse than forcast, the Isle of Man is a small island that simply does not have the infrastructure of your country, but thankfully now six days later everyone now has electricity

Obviously us island dwellers can only aspire to be as perfect as those of you that have chosen to comment in such a derogatory fashion whilst knowing sweet FA about the true facts. 

Unbelievable
		
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The question of not being able to get food to where it needs to be is an entirely separate one from not having feed available at all. I live in an area equally as badly affected as you have been. I am still unable to leave my own  house by driving up the road, yet I live less than a quarter mile from a major A road which is now clear.


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## cronkmooar (27 March 2013)

cptrayes said:



			The question of not being able to get food to where it needs to be is an entirely separate one from not having feed available at all. I live in an area equally as badly affected as you have been. I am still unable to leave my own  house by driving up the road, yet I live less than a quarter mile from a major A road which is now clear.
		
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You really are clueless

This Island is 33 miles long by 15 miles wide.  Not all of it is covered by agricultural land so there is limited land available to make hay/straw

Given the weather last summer and the significant loss of crops - where exactly do you expect us to spirit this food from?

And please, think before you suggest us importing it.


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## BWa (27 March 2013)

I got a similar feeling when reading the comments on the Daily Mail website about this yesterday.
Sheep do not do well in an intensive system, if they did don't you think they would be kept like pigs?!
The lame sheep issue is due to how wet it has been this year as is, possibly, a lack of fodder.
These hill sheep would cope with these conditions for a day or two on most occasions, the issue is the fact they are about ready to lamb. Sheep do not need to be molly coddled like we think our horses do, even the little lambs cope well with bad weather with a full tum. There have been farmers who sheds have collapsed under the weight of snow. This time last year it was glorious, the grass was growing, lambing was great. 
We are a lowland farm with all 340 ewes inside ready to lamb, starting very soon. We have no snow and still a bit of green in the field.
My heart brakes for the hill farmers faces massive looses and have to pick up all the dead stock. 
I'm sorry for my incoherent rambling but I find it so frustrating how far removed people are from British Agriculture, how hard farmers work, how difficult it is with red tape and tiny margins. It's no wonder people have been eating horse meat coz they just don't give a s*** where their food comes from as long as its cheap. Unless its a cute lamb then suddenly farmers are the villians.
Arggggg Rant over. Pregnant farmer's wife, checking out!


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## BWa (27 March 2013)

* I maybe should have signed off crazy, angry, hormonal, emotional, pregnant farmer's wife!


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## Maesfen (27 March 2013)

Cronkmooar, I can only hope that the situation improves for your farmers ASAP, my heart bleeds for them all.


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## MurphysMinder (27 March 2013)

I too have been quite surprised that some people don't seem to realise that hill farmers can't just bring all their stock in when snow is forecast.  Cronkmooar I hope things improve with you.  A friend used to live on IOM and we visited several times, it is a beautiful island but I can imagine the logistics with getting feed etc is a nightmare.  My friend had to move back to the UK as she had a health condition which meant frequent hospital vists, and she had to be flown back to the UK for these.  It got to the point where she could not risk not being able to get off the island, so had to give up her lovely home there.


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## Clodagh (27 March 2013)

We are arable farmers in Essex and when we moan about the weather - like now - we stop and think of the northern livestock people. My mum lives in rural Co Durham and her neighbours are lambing outside, it is only a small holding so he works on another farm all day then does his 20 ewes at night. What a bloody soul destroying time it must be. They don't have any money to buy in more hay and straw, they live well below the poverty line as it is.


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## MrPotts (27 March 2013)

Livestock actually don't do well in confinement. They can pick up diseases and illnesses fairly quickly when in the sheds.


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## Dry Rot (27 March 2013)

Thankfully, I no longer have sheep but I feel for those who do and are experiencing problems with this weather.

Whenever I think of getting back into sheep I remember working alone and getting up at 3am to check my lambing ewes as usual. I had a bad back at the time and walking was difficult and painful.

There was horizontal sleet and it was bitterly cold. Although I only had 100 ewes, I found three needing assistance. By the time I had lambed the third one I was in tears, in agony, and near collapse. I can't imagine how much work goes into lambing the numbers of ewes needed these days to make it viable. I just thank God it isn't me doing it any more.

Some folk on here have no idea what it takes to put food on their plate. I often think this recession has a good side as people have forgotten what it feels like to be hungry and as many have forgotten what hard work is all about. Why should they? Just sign on for benefits.

(Grumbling pensioner!)


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## margaretb (27 March 2013)

My husband is near to breaking point; we lamb 450 ewes inside, started nearly 5 weeks ago. He has had perhaps 5 nights sleep in that time.  Prior to being brought in their grazing was being supplemented with hay and cake.  Once lambed the ewes and lambs stay inside for 24 hours to make sure they are healthy, the ewes have milk, they then go out, and continue to be fed with cake as the grass is non existent.  Last week some of the lambs started scouring, we are now stuck between the devil and the deep blue sea - cannot turn the lambs out because of the weather conditions and risk losing them, or keep them in and due to disease build up we lose them.  We have pens up in every space possible. Each pen has to be disinfected before we refill it again.  Every lamb that shows signs of scouring has to be given electrolytes and if necessary antibiotics.   My mother in law and I top up as many lambs as we can with a bottle.   
The heavy rain on Friday that preceded the snow soaked the lambs and the ground.  If it had just been the snow our outside losses may have been less.  We could not bring them back in.


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## Alec Swan (27 March 2013)

cronkmooar said:



			.......

Given the weather last summer and the significant loss of crops - where exactly do you expect us to spirit this food from?

.......
		
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A series of excellent posts,  perceptive and accurate,  too.  I would that I could be of help,  and I'm sure that I'm not alone.  Sympathy isn't of much use,  I realise.  The horror of being powerless to protect stock,  needs to be felt to be understood.  Do you have any sign of an improvement in the weather?

The problem of winter feed has been compounded by the fact that with the exception of last winter,  and apparently because of global warming,  we have had 10 years plus,  of very mild winters.  With mild winters,  initially those who bought in winter feed dumped it,  as it wasn't needed,  and when (especially on marginal ground) the room for a living wage to be earned is shrinking,  so the need to economise becomes more evident.  Coupled,  with the costs of importing winter feed,  to an island where there simply isn't the capacity to produce their own,  then being reliant upon wintering large numbers of sheep,  out,  may be a thing of the past.

I also agree that being on the end of criticism,  whilst doing one's level best,  and from those who have no experience which is relevant to your own specific environment,  must be irksome.  

Press on,  that's all that you can do.

Alec.


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## BWa (27 March 2013)

Margaretb - as Alec said sympathy isn't much use to you at the moment but please be assured that I am thinking of you during these desperate times. 
I can think of hardly any other industries where people would carry on facing such hardships, But that is farmers for you, carrying on because they have to. It's a shame it isn't recognised by the general public.


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## margaretb (27 March 2013)

BWa said:



			Margaretb - as Alec said sympathy isn't much use to you at the moment but please be assured that I am thinking of you during these desperate times. 
I can think of hardly any other industries where people would carry on facing such hardships, But that is farmers for you, carrying on because they have to. It's a shame it isn't recognised by the general public.
		
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Thank you x


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## Dolcé (27 March 2013)

cronkmooar said:



			You really are clueless

This Island is 33 miles long by 15 miles wide.  Not all of it is covered by agricultural land so there is limited land available to make hay/straw

Given the weather last summer and the significant loss of crops - where exactly do you expect us to spirit this food from?

And please, think before you suggest us importing it.
		
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And the shortage of forage and bedding is an issue on the mainland too, our very local sheep farmer was only saying just before the snow that they were worried about whether the hay will last, they had made enough to last them but have had to keep so many in because the fields were wet that they had used more than normal, straw is very short because of the wet last year.  The cost in the amounts they would need to buy in is totally prohibitive, I know how much we are paying for the horses each week and that is just to ensure our own hay lasts until the next cut.


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## lc1993 (27 March 2013)

Sorry not read all of this ridiculous thread don't have the time right now but was referred to it by a friend.
This is a highly insulting thread to me I don't understand how some people can be so bl**dy stupid.
How OP do you suggest we bring hundreds of heavily pregnant sheep in from hills? And where exactly are we going to keep them? 
Most farmers are going through hell just now and then you get idiotic people like this suggesting we are cruel?!
We've lost ewes in drifts not nearly as many as some people but the weather here and in many places wasn't even forecast to be severe so unless you've found a crystal ball to predict things then please shut up.


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## Cuffey (27 March 2013)

I have a local farmer now looking for 40 round bales of hay for his sheep
Never known him have to advertise before, in a 'normal year' he would make sufficient to last the winter--in 2012 it just did not happen.


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## Sparkly Snowdrop (27 March 2013)

I have been getting so annoyed and exasperated reading some of the ignorant things people have been posting on the web, slagging off farmers for 'letting' their stock suffer and die! So, thank you to those who have posted words of reason!

Sheep farming is not an easy life, nor is hill farming. Combine the two together and then throw in feet and feet of snow and I cannot imagine what these poor people are going through. 

We start lambing on Friday, we have a little snow and bitter cold temperatures and we have a small enough flock that we can get indoors if we have to! (Although we would rather not) We consider ourselves to be very very lucky. 

People cannot believe how soul destroying it is to look after your flock all winter and keep them fed and healthy, only to lose lambs in April due to the weather. 
I have in previous years spent days helping neighbouring farmers get their sheep down from the moor when the weather has done something unexpected like this. Every day we had to first dig a path up to the moor across several fields, find the sheep, dig them out if needed and bring them down. All the digging work from the previous day having been filled in again overnight. I'd like to see some of the people who think that we deliberately let stock die try that for a few hours! Then they'd have some idea what hard work was all about.

Ok rant over now!


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## meesha (27 March 2013)

Sky filmed farmers literally walking over snow drifts with a stick to find buried livestock and a shovel the faces of the farmers said it all, a mixture of desperation and exhaustion.  I wish there was more we could all do to help and it seems crazy that with all the technology available there isnt a solution but it is heart warming to hear about the local communities coming to the help of the farmers where possible.  Here in Somerset we have got off soo lightly... No snow just the cold let's just hope the weather improves soon and the government gives help to those farmers worst hit.


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## Amymay (27 March 2013)

Are you insulted ic1993 because I asked a question, or insulted that so many have found themselves in the same situation as you?

I'm not a farmer, and in my ignorance had assumed that farmers might have been able to make provision for their stock nearer to home, rather than leave them on the fields.

I'm sorry for all those who've lost stock, and sympathise with the personal and financial implications thier loss means. 

However, if i'd not asked my 'stupid' question, I'd still be in a state of ignorance.


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## cptrayes (27 March 2013)

cronkmooar said:



			You really are clueless

This Island is 33 miles long by 15 miles wide.  Not all of it is covered by agricultural land so there is limited land available to make hay/straw

Given the weather last summer and the significant loss of crops - where exactly do you expect us to spirit this food from?

And please, think before you suggest us importing it.
		
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I am surprised that farmers would stock their land higher than they can feed in the event of a bit of adverse weather. This is not "once in a lifetime" conditions.  If they have no feed, what were they planning to feed their nursing and in lamb  sheep, which in the Peaks are fed at this time of year, snow or no snow?


Is the IoM in the EU?   Since the single payment, based on land area not stocking numbers, the stock levels here are markedly lower.


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## lachlanandmarcus (27 March 2013)

Also if CP T was aware of the DEFRA code of welfare for sheep they are not to be transported during the last 10% of pregnancy. Now clearly moving them might be the better of two evils,but it does illustrate that there are further risks to the sheep/lambs in the process of the rescue itself as it involves very physical handling and stress to the sheep which can either prompt abortion or add to the stresses of the whole scenario and lead to twin lamb disease where the ewe wastes away giving all their nutrients to the lamb (normally only seen with older poorer ewes).


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## cronkmooar (27 March 2013)

cptrayes said:



			I am surprised that farmers would stock their land higher than they can feed in the event of a bit of adverse weather. This is not "once in a lifetime" conditions.  If they have no feed, what were they planning to feed their nursing and in lamb  sheep, which in the Peaks are fed at this time of year, snow or no snow?


Is the IoM in the EU?   Since the single payment, based on land area not stocking numbers, the stock levels here are markedly lower.
		
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Cuffey said:



			I have a local farmer now looking for 40 round bales of hay for his sheep
Never known him have to advertise before, in a 'normal year' he would make sufficient to last the winter--in 2012 it just did not happen.
		
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You really are not only irritating and rude but also ignorant on so many levels.

Your time might be better off actually educating yourself rather than spouting drivel on an equine forum.

I will make this slightly easier for you 

1.  It most certainly is once in a lifetime conditions here - and elsewhere if you take the time to read this thread;
2.  The Isle of Man is not in the EU neither is it in the UK

I would also suggest that you re read this thread and note the comments from those that know what they are talking about with regard to farming before commenting again


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## SusieT (27 March 2013)

If it were horses left in a field with no shelter because the owners didn't have enough money to build/rent a shed things would be different. Keeping an animal means you can provide for it in all weathers-not just the good times. If you can't and cannot afford to upgrade your facilities you need to be rid of the thought that is is a 'right' to farm those animals and sell enough to be able to afford the rest.


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## martlin (27 March 2013)

cptrayes said:



			I am surprised that farmers would stock their land higher than they can feed in the event of a bit of adverse weather. This is not "once in a lifetime" conditions.  If they have no feed, what were they planning to feed their nursing and in lamb  sheep, which in the Peaks are fed at this time of year, snow or no snow?


Is the IoM in the EU?   Since the single payment, based on land area not stocking numbers, the stock levels here are markedly lower.
		
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WOW, just wow 
Stock levels are stock levels regardless of SFP, you can't live on SFP, you need to make your stock pay. It's 6 ewes per acre and in many areas probably less as the land/grazing is poorer quality.
I have a small flock of about a 100 ewes, they are indoors, nearly finished lambing, some of the lambs are 3-4 weeks old and have nowhere to go outside, I need to feed around a lb of grain a head a day, so that is 50kg for the ewes alone, then some lamb creep for the lambs, say 20kg. The lot of them go through a heston bale of top quality barley straw and another heston bale of hay, per day, each freaking day. 
So, every single day extra of keeping them in costs me about £70.
If they were out they would eat grass and maybe a bale a WEEK.
Out of them 100 ewes I'll have around 160 lambs, if I'm lucky, they will fetch £70 per head at a market in the summer, after I have taken them, I will have to pay commission, levies and all sorts of other crap.
Just how much feed do you think I can buy in? And where on Earth would I store it?
Now imagine the poor sods that are lambing 500... or 1500
and then get a bloody shovel and dig yourself out, rather than impatiently waiting for somebody else to make sure your road is black


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## MotherOfChickens (27 March 2013)

gobsmacked at what I am seeing on this thread.


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## Twizzel (27 March 2013)

Cuffey said:



			I have a local farmer now looking for 40 round bales of hay for his sheep
Never known him have to advertise before, in a 'normal year' he would make sufficient to last the winter--in 2012 it just did not happen.
		
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The same goes for beef farmers too- we are down to the last 20 or so bales of silage and getting through 1 1/2 bales a day... the cows are normally out 24/7 by now and last year OH made more silage than they thought was needed... we had it coming out of our ears, now there's boarderline not enough. 

What you all also need to remember is livestock came in early this winter due to the rain, now they are having to stay in later due to the cold and lack of grass, they have used up most of their hay/silage and straw and are now on the last few bales... the grass isn't growing even down here in Cornwall which is normally fairly mild. We've got January orphan lambs waiting to go out in the field but there isn't any grass for them to have. The cows are still in and it's nearly April. This year is again going to be hugely stressful for British farmers and you'd think they would have the country behind them supporting them, but no... it's shocking really. And you'll all be moaning when the price of food goes up and food is sourced from outside of the UK because more british farmers have shut up shop...


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## lc1993 (27 March 2013)

SusieT these animals are hill animals bred to live out on hills, why on earth would we build sheds for ewes in case it ever happened to snow to these extremes ?! Lots of us were completely caught out by the drifts! It's not like we left them out intentionally to die cause we couldn't be bothered bringing them in.


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## AengusOg (27 March 2013)

lachlanandmarcus said:



			or add to the stresses of the whole scenario and lead to twin lamb disease where the ewe wastes away giving all their nutrients to the lamb (normally only seen with older poorer ewes).
		
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That's not entirely accurate. Preg tox usually affects fatter ewes and is caused by a lack of nutrition and/or water which causes the ewe to mobilise reserves quickly, resulting in a sharp rise in levels of toxins in the body.


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## justabob (27 March 2013)

SusieT said:



			If it were horses left in a field with no shelter because the owners didn't have enough money to build/rent a shed things would be different. Keeping an animal means you can provide for it in all weathers-not just the good times. If you can't and cannot afford to upgrade your facilities you need to be rid of the thought that is is a 'right' to farm those animals and sell enough to be able to afford the rest.
		
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TBH I have yet to read anything you post SusieT on this forum that did'nt get on my wick, but I have to say you have surpassed yourself with this drivel. Have you not read the thread or are you too daft to understand .


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## Sparkly Snowdrop (27 March 2013)

SusieT said:



			If it were horses left in a field with no shelter because the owners didn't have enough money to build/rent a shed things would be different. Keeping an animal means you can provide for it in all weathers-not just the good times. If you can't and cannot afford to upgrade your facilities you need to be rid of the thought that is is a 'right' to farm those animals and sell enough to be able to afford the rest.
		
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What a lovely simple little world you live in!

Good luck finding anything to eat when all the farmers decide to stop farming because they can't afford it.


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## bonny (27 March 2013)

Snowdrop said:



			What a lovely simple little world you live in!

Good luck finding anything to eat when all the farmers decide to stop farming because they can't afford it.
		
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Farmers won't stop farming as we all know, they will get a hardship payment due to the snow on top of their annual subsidies. I feel for the hill farmers and for the buried sheep especially so close to lambing but having a hillfarm will always be a hard way of life in this country.


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## Alec Swan (27 March 2013)

SusieT said:



			If it were horses left in a field with no shelter because the owners didn't have enough money to build/rent a shed things would be different. 

*Horses ARE left in fields without shelter,  and often without feed.  Have you given any thought as to the reasons for this?*

Keeping an animal means you can provide for it in all weathers-not just the good times. If you can't and cannot afford to upgrade your facilities you need to be rid of the thought that is is a 'right' to farm those animals and sell enough to be able to afford the rest.

*Such excellent advice,  I feel certain that there are those on here who having not previously considered your wise words,  will now do so,  and mend their ways! *

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Love it! 

Alec.


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## Alec Swan (27 March 2013)

bonny said:



			Farmers won't stop farming as we all know, they will get a hardship payment due to the snow on top of their annual subsidies. ........
		
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That's excellent news.  I take it that you have access to Government that the rest of us don't have.  Do explain,  I'm all ears! 

Alec.


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## BWa (27 March 2013)

SusieT as I said before, sheep are not horses, two completely different set of requirements, as several people have pointed out sheep do not thrive on confinement. 
It is still breaking my heart that despite people's personal accounts of all the hardship, others are still making ignorant comments.


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## lachlanandmarcus (27 March 2013)

AengusOg said:



			That's not entirely accurate. Preg tox usually affects fatter ewes and is caused by a lack of nutrition and/or water which causes the ewe to mobilise reserves quickly, resulting in a sharp rise in levels of toxins in the body.
		
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I've only ever seen it in my older ewes ))


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## bonny (27 March 2013)

BWa said:



			SusieT as I said before, sheep are not horses, two completely different set of requirements, as several people have pointed out sheep do not thrive on confinement. 
It is still breaking my heart that despite people's personal accounts of all the hardship, others are still making ignorant comments.
		
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I think one of the problems with complaining farmers is that a lot of people would gladly swap places with them !


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## lc1993 (27 March 2013)

I'm not sure a lot of you understand quite how far some of these sheep stay from farm buildings or how high up they are either.
I know that this snow has also cause a lot of problems at low land ground as well due to drifting.
There are some posts on this thread that show how little the general public understands about farming and farming lifestyle. 
The majority of us are devoted to our stock and spend more or less every hour of the day trying to make sure they are all fit and healthy and keep them safe when we have to.


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## sykokat (27 March 2013)

Gosh! Why is it always the farmers fault! Judgemental or what!!! Try leading the lives they do and then come back with something constructive and sensible to say. Because so far some if the comments just suggest that some people have nothing better to do! For those if you that 'live' in the areas affected, instead if slating the farmers, why not get your shovel out and go and help!!!! I, for one, would if I was anywhere near them!!!


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## martlin (27 March 2013)

bonny said:



			I think one of the problems with complaining farmers is that a lot of people would gladly swap places with them !
		
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Do you really think so? I'm not convinced.
I don't think farmers here are complaining, just giving accounts of how it is going at the moment and defending their actions, explaining the practicalities etc... and getting a lot of flak for their effort.


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## amandap (27 March 2013)

I suppose if we expect farmers to always provide and prepare for extreme weather then they should stop selling hay to horse owners.  Hill farmers will often have to buy in all their hay/silage as their land isn't suitable for it's production. Do some seriously think they should buy hundreds of bales every year just in case? Stock will also be eating much more in this weather.

Farming is business it isn't a hobby. Do we really want all meat and dairy produced from mega factory farms? I shudder at the thought from a welfare point of view personally.

ps. I would only swap places with a farmer if I won the lottery and could afford to do what I wanted and have a wonderful hobby.


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## BWa (27 March 2013)

Bonny- I think a lot of people who 'think' they might want to swap with the 'complaining' farmers, actually live in la la land. Many wouldn't manage a day with the physical work, knowledge and experience required, the highs and lows and all for very little at the end of the day.
Another one who thinks that farmer's have it easy, great...


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## bonny (27 March 2013)

amandap said:



			I suppose if we expect farmers to always provide and prepare for extreme weather then they should stop selling hay to horse owners.  Hill farmers will often have to buy in all their hay/silage as their land isn't suitable for it's production. Do some seriously think they should buy hundreds of bales every year just in case? Stock will also be eating much more in this weather.

Farming is business it isn't a hobby. Do we really want all meat and dairy produced from mega factory farms? I shudder at the thought from a welfare point of view personally.
		
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They won't stop selling hay and feed for horses because it's profitable ....horse owners pay alot more for feed than farmers would ever do....same for grazing.


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## cptrayes (27 March 2013)

martlin said:



			nd then get a bloody shovel and dig yourself out, rather than impatiently waiting for somebody else to make sure your road is black
		
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Why do you so arrogantly assume that I am sitting waiting for other people to dig me out?  We have spent many hours out in some vicious weather digging our way across the fields so that the snow blower could be used elsewhere with people who could not get out at all.  The only thing I am waiting for now is access by road so that I can stop bouncing my brain on the roof of our beaten up old Hilux (not, not the Range Rover Evoque that you were probably thinking of) just to go and get a pint of milk.


Farmers are not the only people who are losing money due to this weather. A friend of mine runs a cafe, neighbours run two pubs. Both have had no revenues for a week. A third has holiday cottages and a 5 room B&B (and sheep) and not only has this cost them Easter bookings, but it will reduce their revenues for years to come until people forget about it.  Haulage companies, many of them with owner drivers in leased vehicles have lost a fortune. It's a  nightmare for many businesses. It's probably cost Stobarts millions.

None of those are any different from a sheep farmer having to pay more to feed their sheep (and there are plenty of those around me too). You choose to farm sheep. The world will not end if we do not have lamb to eat.

I am sorry that you are having a hard time, so am I. I am feeding and having to care for a horse that was due to be shot on Tuesday and the hunt won't now be able to get in and take him until after Easter. I hope ALL of us have some better weather soon.


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## cptrayes (27 March 2013)

amandap said:



			Do some seriously think they should buy hundreds of bales every year just in case? Stock will also be eating much more in this weather?
		
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You write as if sheep feed goes off. Hay can be used the next season, and bagged feed keeps. It's not having to be bought more than for the one year that it is used. What else do you propose - let the sheep die of starvation?


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## martlin (27 March 2013)

Sheep feed does actually go off, just the same as horse feed, it has about 6 months shelf life.


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## BWa (27 March 2013)

Bonny your still not getting it- hill farmers don't make much hay as most of their land is fell and they don't provide much grazing for horse owners as I doubt you would want to walk several miles, up steep hills to catch and turn out. The ones your thinking of such as farmers like us in the lowlands have got it much better. However the thought of doing livery makes my blood run cold. I'm not sure I would want to share the farm with some of the posters on here!


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## amandap (27 March 2013)

cptrayes said:



			The world will not end if we do not have lamb to eat.
		
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No, but it will end a lot faster if we all stopped eating meat, eggs and dairy and relied soley on crops,veg and fruit.

I too hope we all get better weather soon, the incessant, biting wind has been the killer.


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## sykokat (27 March 2013)

Popcorn anyone??!


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## cptrayes (27 March 2013)

martlin said:



			Sheep feed does actually go off, just the same as horse feed, it has about 6 months shelf life.
		
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You know as well as I do that it is the vitamin levels that go and not the calorific value. Sheep also eat neat sugar beet pellets unsoaked, and they last in the bag for a year until the next harvest is available.


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## cptrayes (27 March 2013)

amandap said:



			No, but it will end a lot faster if we all stopped eating meat, eggs and dairy and relied soley on crops,veg and fruit.

I too hope we all get better weather soon, the incessant, biting wind has been the killer. 

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How on earth do you work that one out Amanda? The world will end if we all turn vegetarian? I don't think so 

No one suggested not eating diary or eggs, by the way. Those cows and hens ARE almost all still indoors and not eating much more than they would be if the sun was shining.


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## martlin (27 March 2013)

As I said, with my SMALL flock, this weather means 4 bags of feed a day, for lets say 4 weeks, that over 100 bags on top of our normal supplies for winter, which isn't THAT bad to find a storage for, but for extra 30 bales of hay and 30 bales of straw... well, I could put it in the lambing shed, oh no, hang on, the sheep are in it, packed like sardines in a tin.


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## silu (27 March 2013)

I'm totally flammergasted at some of the ignorance/offensive attitude and impractical suggestions that have been banded about by what I can only assume are "townies" who have maybe 1 horse on full livery and haven't the faintest idea what they are talking about.

Rather than spending your time in a warm (hopefully) house/office spouting drivel on here, go and see if you can help some of these sheep you are bleating! about. I'm just in, frozen, soaking, hungry and depressed having been helping my neighbouring farmer struggle with his lambing. I haven't slept for over 24 hours, farmer? don't think he can remember when he last slept.


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## amandap (27 March 2013)

cptrayes said:



			How on earth do you work that one out Amanda? The world will end if we all turn vegetarian? I don't think so 

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I said end faster. If we stopped eating meat how much land will be needed to provide enough to eat? How many more chemicals will be poured onto the earth etc?

No I realize no one said eggs etc. but I was extrapolating. Look at the welfare issues caused by intensive factory indoor farming. Still, I suppose they are tucked up cosy and warm.  Not a world I want to see for all farmed animals.


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## bonny (27 March 2013)

silu said:



			I'm totally flammergasted at some of the ignorance/offensive attitude and impractical suggestions that have been banded about by what I can only assume are "townies" who have maybe 1 horse on full livery and haven't the faintest idea what they are talking about.

Rather than spending your time in a warm (hopefully) house/office spouting drivel on here, go and see if you can help some of these sheep you are bleating! about. I'm just in, frozen, soaking, hungry and depressed having been helping my neighbouring farmer struggle with his lambing. I haven't slept for over 24 hours, farmer? don't think he can remember when he last slept.
		
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At the end of the day nobody is forced to be a farmer....if you have sheep then this is always going to be a hard time of year when for a few weeks long hours are called for. The snow has made things worse but it is much worse than most years and the weather is out of anybodies control.  I'm speaking as some one who lives on a farm and used to do night shifts in lambing sheds so I'm not a townie !


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## cptrayes (27 March 2013)

amandap said:



			I said end faster. If we stopped eating meat how much land will be needed to provide enough to eat? How many more chemicals will be poured onto the earth etc?

No I realize no one said eggs etc. but I was extrapolating. Look at the welfare issues caused by intensive factory indoor farming. Still, I suppose they are tucked up cosy and warm.  Not a world I want to see for all farmed animals.
		
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You need to do some more research Amanda 

Animal protein is a very inefficient way to feed the world, and we could  feed a lot more people if we grew plant protein instead.  Eating animals is a resource hungry luxury, not a necessity.

For those now wondering, no I am not a vegetarian.


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## Sparkly Snowdrop (27 March 2013)

Bonny ~ I am a hill farmer and you are more than welcome to come up here and spend a week in my wellies at lambing time. A 17-20 hour day isn't unusual, and a sandwich for dinner as you haven't the energy to cook for yourself! 

We cannot make our own hay, our land is too hilly and we cannot afford to buy the machinery to make hay even if it was suitable! We are paying the same price for our hay that the horse owners are paying. Our land is defined by DEFRA as severely disadvantaged. We don't get any 'hardship payment' and our subsidies are less than half our feed costs. I don't want sympathy because I love my life and I will farm in these hills until I am no longer able, but easy it isn't!


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## bonny (27 March 2013)

Snowdrop said:



			Bonny ~ I am a hill farmer and you are more than welcome to come up here and spend a week in my wellies at lambing time. A 17-20 hour day isn't unusual, and a sandwich for dinner as you haven't the energy to cook for yourself! 

We cannot make our own hay, our land is too hilly and we cannot afford to buy the machinery to make hay even if it was suitable! We are paying the same price for our hay that the horse owners are paying. Our land is defined by DEFRA as severely disadvantaged. We don't get any 'hardship payment' and our subsidies are less than half our feed costs. I don't want sympathy because I love my life and I will farm in these hills until I am no longer able, but easy it isn't!
		
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I'm sure it's not easy and I've done my fair share of lambings in my time but I also think it's a great way of life and a lot of people would love to be in your wellies !


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## amandap (27 March 2013)

cptrayes said:



			You need to do some more research Amanda 

Animal protein is a very inefficient way to feed the world, and we could  feed a lot more people if we grew plant protein instead.  Eating animals is a resource hungry luxury, not a necessity.

For those now wondering, no I am not a vegetarian.
		
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It appears I do.  All the land used to grow animal feed could be used for human food.


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## cptrayes (27 March 2013)

martlin said:



			30 bales of hay and 30 bales of straw... well, I could put it in the lambing shed, oh no, hang on, the sheep are in it, packed like sardines in a tin.
		
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I can give you some pallets I don't need. Stack it and put a tarpaulin (from Poundland) on the top weighed down with baler twine and bricks. Or buy wrapped big bale if you don't need small bale for handling reasons, like a firend f mine has for her little herd of Herdwicks.


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## lachlanandmarcus (27 March 2013)

bonny said:



			They won't stop selling hay and feed for horses because it's profitable ....horse owners pay alot more for feed than farmers would ever do....same for grazing.
		
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They partly pay a lot more cos they buy very small quantities and are very fussy about quality but not so fussy when bouncing the cheques to pay for the hay, according to the feedback I have! 

Horse owners pay more for grazing as they want it in convenient locations, with good security, water, shelter and in small lots, which generally means they are competing with all the other horse  owners and sometimes also developers. If they bought 100 acres not two the price would be lower, just as it would be if I was a big retailer buying in bulk, and the land wouldn't be fenced or in the convenient location. It's competition from horse owners that determines the price of pony paddocks.

These hill farmers are not the hay and straw retailers in this country, that is by far and away the lowland farms. 

If you really want to be a farmer (not a hobby farm which is nice tho still hard work) but a real one that has to pay its way on marginal land, first watch Molly Dineens documentary The Lie of the Land if you can find it anywhere. Then decide again....
http://www.channel4.com/programmes/the-lie-of-the-land


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## touchstone (27 March 2013)

A hill farmer from my area has just been on the local news, he farms in Teesdale and was already struggling with the wet summer as the grazing lost nutrients due to leaching, the flock developed liver fluke, hay is hard to find and expensive  and he has lost 5% of his flock to date.   He said he'd love to walk away from it all, but he can't because he has to stay to look after his sheep.   
I moan about the cost of haylage and the stresses the weather has placed on horse owners, but at the end of the day, that is a hobby, this is people's livelihoods.   I don't envy them one little bit.  They might work in beautiful countryside and have an apperently idyllic lifestyle to an outsider, but they can't walk away from a 9-5 job and switch off from it like many of us can, they have the worries 24/7 365 days a year


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## Alec Swan (27 March 2013)

cptrayes said:



			You know as well as I do that it is the vitamin levels that go and not the calorific value. .......
		
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Perhaps that would explain why oats and barley were and still are rolled on farm,  as the calorific content stays within the seed forever!  Let's face it,  we all know that. 

Alec.


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## BWa (27 March 2013)

My blood pressure can't take anymore of this, I'm out of this thread it is making me question the social direction this country is heading in. One way ticket to New Zealand anyone?


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## minesadouble (27 March 2013)

BWa said:



			My blood pressure can't take anymore of this, I'm out of this thread it is making me question the social direction this country is heading in. One way ticket to New Zealand anyone?
		
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Yes, me please!! I've just read this thread, cannot even bring myself to commment. But then again, with so many armchair experts out there there's probably no need.


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## bonny (27 March 2013)

BWa said:



			My blood pressure can't take anymore of this, I'm out of this thread it is making me question the social direction this country is heading in. One way ticket to New Zealand anyone?
		
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You'll find in NZ there are no subsidies and the farmers have to sink or swim.....and they have bad weather to contend with too !


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## jrp204 (27 March 2013)

It is lucky that people choose to farm as if it they didn't it would be seen as a punishment! Long hours, no money and high stress, but it does give you a nice place to live.


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## Maesfen (27 March 2013)

BWa said:



			My blood pressure can't take anymore of this, I'm out of this thread it is making me question the social direction this country is heading in. One way ticket to New Zealand anyone?
		
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You really wouldn't like their standards of animal welfare particularly for farm animals, I can assure you.

They block cover their cows but if any don't calve within their time limit they either abort them or shoot the cow; they go round the paddocks shooting any bull calves; they never use the vet just leave them to either get on with it or die and have a hard job to check their animals once a day even when calving.  The sheep don't fare any better either so please don't say NZ is the place to go; if you're an animal lover it most certainly isn't.  That butter advert is a joke.


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## BWa (27 March 2013)

I am fully aware of how farming works in New Zealand, my husband was offer a job there a few months ago but we decided to stay here. He has also spent a total of 18 months working out there for several contractors. I realise that doesnt make me an expert but i do have some understanding. However the draw for me was the fact the most of the general public in New Zealand have a basic understanding of how the industry works and the government seem to support one of their biggest industries much more than ours. 
However this is completely unrelated to the original content of this thread so I now regret my flippant comment.


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## SusieT (27 March 2013)

Easy assumption to make that those who think leaving animals in those conditions is wrong know nothing-rather than accepting that we have a different view on acceptable animal keeping. And since when did it become offensive to disagree...


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## SusieT (27 March 2013)

(practicalities-a great word to excuse poor care)


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## amandap (27 March 2013)

Is it a case of "just leaving them" though? I don't think so.  

Don't get me wrong I have lots of criticisms/questions with farming in general but these really are extreme conditions for some.


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## Fairynuff (27 March 2013)

RoseGrey said:



			Maybe they didn't check the forecast, maybe they don't have anywhere else to put them, maybe they didn't think it would be so bad, maybe they couldn't be bothered...?

Whatever the answer, its a damn good question. 

There is simply NO excuse for not protecting your animals.[/QUOTE)

With over 2,000 ewes and tups, my cousin would be hard pushed to house his stock. They are checked daily and given extra feed when needed. No farmer would deliberately leave his 'crop' out in awful conditions if there was another alternative.
		
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## martlin (27 March 2013)

SusieT said:



			(practicalities-a great word to excuse poor care)
		
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Thanks Susie, that's really lovely of you.


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## ShadowHunter (27 March 2013)

Havent read all of this, but im getting the jist.
Personally, we farm Herdwick sheep and Highland cows. Now, i dont know how familiar you are with breeds etc. but both of these breeds are designed by nature to live in the highest grounds of Scotland and the Lake District where the weather is far worse. 
For these, it would be worse, even cruel to bring them in for long periods of time. Eventually they will fight and lose condition, as i have witnessed previously on other farms.
Yes, not all sheep/cows/etc. are made to be outside, but most are, so to put it nicely, don't make assumptions as you don't know the reasons behind it. There a lot tougher than you think.


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## KidnapMoss (27 March 2013)

minesadouble said:



			Yes, me please!! I've just read this thread, cannot even bring myself to commment. But then again, with so many armchair experts out there there's probably no need.
		
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Nor me, I can't comment either. Some of these comments are downright ignorant. To those lambing in these conditions my heart breaks for you. We faced our wettest harvest last year and had to leave acres and acres of crops uncut,swamped in rain which was heartbreaking enough but I can't imagine how dreadful it must be, digging dead lambs out if drifts. This is EXCEPTIONAL weather. Thinking of you, from one farmers wife to another.


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## justabob (27 March 2013)

SusieT said:



			(practicalities-a great word to excuse poor care)
		
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Silly little girl.


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## CaleruxShearer (27 March 2013)

As an student doing a degree in Agricultural MAnagement it really genuinely astonishes me how little idea people have about these things work. We are very lucky that we've had no significant snow down here but the cold weather and the wet has been really difficult, I've been lambing for a guy that was forced to pay to put up a polytunnel to lamb the outside ewes in because the wind and the rain and then the amount of snow we had was finishing the lambs off, but then there is the situation that you have outside ewes 'inside' effectively that aren't used to being in which causes a host of problems in itself. 

For the hill farmers with big herds it just isn't, in any way, possible to get all the ewes inside, there is not the space, simple as that. It isn't a case of 'let's build more sheds to prepare for something that may happen every 10 years'. My heart really, really goes out to those digging stock out at the moment, you can't imagine how it must feel.

It really winds me up when people say 'oh just live off the SFP' - the majority of farms could not survive without it but most definitely can't just survive on the payment itself if that makes sense! The accounts that we look at (real farm accounts) are only just scraping by, and that is with the SFP, many many farms do not operate on any real profit at all. And yet people still expect cheap meat at good quality! Drives me mad! 
Sorry all, rant over!


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## justabob (27 March 2013)

cptrayes said:



			I can give you some pallets I don't need. Stack it and put a tarpaulin (from Poundland) on the top weighed down with baler twine and bricks. Or buy wrapped big bale if you don't need small bale for handling reasons, like a firend f mine has for her little herd of Herdwicks.
		
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CPT, you know a hell of a lot about barefoot horses and I regard you as a doyen on the subject. You know feck all about the practicalities of farming.


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## Spook (27 March 2013)

Are at least some of you aware just how depressed and helpless some of these farmers must be feeling?? Try multiplying your horsey/doggy/family problems X 100..... and THINK ON! ....... 

Such drivel as was, I understand, spouted on The Jeremy Vine programe, I did'nt hear it but my farmer OH did, and some of what is on here just may tip the balance for some. BE CAREFUL what you say, suicide was very much in evidence due to the heavy rainfall over the past seasons, this snow just might be the nail in the coffin for a few more so do not be so bloody careless and thoughtless with your words.


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## gadetra (27 March 2013)

Oh dear god. I have never read such drivel in all my days. Having been borna and reared on a farm I find it incredible, really incredible how ignorant people can be about how meat lands ont heir plates.
Space for all of them? Are you serious? Should we knit jumpers and blankets to tuck them into as well? Hill sheep are bred to live out, yean out, and an awful lot of farmers can't afford massive yeaning sheds. 
These are exceptional circumstances. The weather and the year it's been have conspired to create truely ****e conditions. We rear finishers for beef and everything is still in the shed with no sign of grass to come yet and silage running out. Also one of my fathers friends up north put his sheep in, only for the old wooden trusses in the shed to collapse with the weight of snow on it and kill all inside.
Also remember a lot of what is dug out alive will die, the shock, cold and lack of feed will finish them off. So that's a ewe and lamb lost. 
Whole livelihoods have been wiped out. Farmers have been left with nothing from herds built up over generations. If anyone seriously thinks they left livestock out to die needs their heads examined. 
If anyone wants to step into our wellies go ahead-getting up before when you are well within single digits to milk, feed or fodther (don't know the english word for it) cattle and the same when you get home in all weathers. You grow up working, there are NEVER lie-ins, or holidays. We can't afford to pay someone to look after our stock so my parents have never been on a holiday. Ever in their lives. It is a 24 hour job, 365 days a year. It's hard, long, tough work, and it is relentless. You are at the mercy of nature and very very little money is made. It is something in your blood, your soul. Farmers are born over here, not made. 
Add to this how much grain has risen in price over the years and beef prices have dropped? You do the maths. Every animal is precious, and no farmer leaves profit out to die in a field cos they can't be bothered looking after it.
I'm going to stop now, before I begin spitting with rage. I could triple the length of this post! Such levels of self riteous ignorance incense me. Sin é I am out!


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## CazD (27 March 2013)

Trinity Fox said:



			I am glad you have brought this up,I am fed up of looking at sheep near us lame, left out in all weathers with no feed shelter.
Huge sheds standing empty and food on site sheep screaming at me when they see me feeding horses.

When we had the bad snow a couple of years ago we were left feeding sheep as the person who owned them used to come and check on them every couple of months if that.
There is even a person who has been banned who is keeping them in somebody else's name, I know not all farmers are like this but we see so much sheer neglect and my dad always comments he does not want to comeback as a sheep in another life.

Half of them near us do not even do basic checking we are always having to get them up on there feet after being down for so long and gassing up,we have also found them with eyes pecked out etc so the fact many were not brought in does not surprise me in the least.
It is very frustrating and depressing.

Click to expand...

This sounds just like my neighbouring farmer.  RSPCA, DEFRA and environmental health all say they are "aware and monitoring him" but in reality do nothing.   Meanwhile the animals drown in the deep mud or starve  because the farmer couldnt give a toss.

Edited to add - this is one farmer by us - the rest are fine, work hard and do a job I really wouldnt want to have to.


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## Tuffles 23 (27 March 2013)

Being a farmer's daughter and knowing how hard this way of life really is my heart go's out to these poor people and if I was closer I would be there helping them find there stock .


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## justabob (27 March 2013)

Spook said:



			Are at least some of you aware just how depressed and helpless some of these farmers must be feeling?? Try multiplying your horsey/doggy/family problems X 100..... and THINK ON! ....... 

Such drivel as was, I understand, spouted on The Jeremy Vine programe, I did'nt hear it but my farmer OH did, and some of what is on here just may tip the balance for some. BE CAREFUL what you say, suicide was very much in evidence due to the heavy rainfall over the past seasons, this snow just might be the nail in the coffin for a few more so do not be so bloody careless and thoughtless with your words.
		
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Spook, Its dire I know but there are lots of supportive posts on here, lots of understanding people that know what its like to fight on. Ignore the rest that the first time they have come in contact with lamb is on a plate. On the up side the biting east wind has subsided and for a few minutes lambs were gathering this afternoon and playing. It was a sight for sore eyes.


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## Spook (27 March 2013)

If you genuinely think there is a problem forget the charities and go to the Animal Health Inspector at your local council...... they will intervene. Only do this if you are sure AND for gods sake not just when the weather is desperate....... most of us are trying very hard to do the right thing by our stock.


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## Alec Swan (27 March 2013)

SusieT said:



			(practicalities-a great word to excuse poor care)
		
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martlin said:



			Thanks Susie, that's really lovely of you.
		
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martlin,  the likes of SusieT are so authoritative,  they have such a wealth of knowledge, * "AND NOT LET'S FORGET,  experience"* ,  that they will lecture those who rely upon the generations of learning which have been handed down to those who manage an everyday existence.  

Arguing with idiots is a waste of time,  I've found.

Alec.


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## Trinity Fox (27 March 2013)

As I stated I am sure not all other farmers are doing what we see, and why is it assumed because I have made these comments all of which are truth that I am probably just a horse owner who is so used to coddling my horses and I don't understand it all.

As I also stated my father has never kept his animals nor will he as some are being kept, I never once said he only keeps horses.

I would be a complete hypocrite if I did not speak as I have about my own experiences of practices going on right under my nose,it is not an attack on all farmers it is about things I have personally seen and are not good practise by any stretch and quite frankly are sometimes cruel.
I am speaking only about things I have seen for myself and it is not one person either. I am sure there are lot's of farmers who are distraught at what is going on and are striving to do their best in a bad situation,that does not change the facts about the poor care the stock I was making reference  to are receiving.
And I do know how much sheep are worth although the price has dropped considerably and how much it costs to have a carcass taken away although as I stated the people I was talking about in earlier post one burns some of theirs and yes I know the position on the disposal of stock and another has dead sheep lying around rotting in fields,all of which I know is not supposed to be doable, and as I also said another who is banned is still keeping them.
Maybe I should pretend all this is not happening, after all if you are involved in the farming industry in any way the one thing you must never do is speak out if you think anything wrong is being done.

Even the one's who have been taken to court and prosecuted and banned here it does not stop them they are keeping them still just not on paper,two of our close neighbours have been prosecuted and it is a big joke and they get the oh have you been a naughty boy type jokes at the market.

I can see from some of the responses on this thread that there are lots people who care for their stock with passion and it must be soul destroying for those who have had the worst of the weather and maybe I should have commented about these particular people on a seperate  thread as I understand with the extreme weather it is not normal circumstances, but this extreme weather only shows the neglect of care even more and if you see it every day then I am afraid it is very frustrating.


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## CazD (27 March 2013)

Spook said:



			If you genuinely think there is a problem forget the charities and go to the Animal Health Inspector at your local council...... they will intervene. Only do this if you are sure AND for gods sake not just when the weather is desperate....... most of us are trying very hard to do the right thing by our stock.
		
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Thank  you - is the animal Health Inspector different to the environmental health people with the council?  The farmer I mentioned is well known to people in my area who have been making complaints to various authorities for years.  No-one can understand why nothing gets done - animals are obviously suffering, carcasses are left rotting in the fields and none of the cows have ear tags etc.  Even the other local farmers cant understand why nothing gets done as they all have to abide by the rules.


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## Alec Swan (27 March 2013)

CazD said:



			This sounds just like my neighbouring farmer.  RSPCA, DEFRA and environmental health all say they are "aware and monitoring him" but in reality do nothing.   Meanwhile the animals drown in the deep mud or starve  because the farmer couldnt give a toss.

Edited to add - this is one farmer by us - ........
		
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I don't believe you.  I believe that you have fabricated this tale.  Provide the evidence.

Alec.


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## Hairy Old Cob (27 March 2013)

As mad as I am about this post I will try to stay out of its stupidity, and I agree their are some people allowed and not allowed to keep Sheep that shouldnt be keeping them which is the same with a Great many horse Owners yes I agree that their plight in some areas is horrendous but lets rationaly think about this.
1 The weather is totally unseasonal
2 This is a once in about 50 year event
3 Sheep are designed by nature to live in some of the harshest of conditions and thrive better in normally colder upland conditions than up to their hocks in mud, in the Lowlands.
4 Most farms do not have the building space to house large Nos of sheep because the weather isnt usally like this at Lambing and Sheep thrive better outside, as do their Lambs in a normal year.
5 Most Farmers ALWAYS Try to Look after their animals the best they can it is their Livelyhood.
6 I havent read all the posts so I apologise if this has already been said.
7 As the saying goes try walking a few miles in my Boots and think of the Torment that some farmers are enduring at the moment.


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## Spook (27 March 2013)

Snap! ..... to what Alec Swan said


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## Dobiegirl (27 March 2013)

Cant believe all the armchair farmers on here, perhaps you would like to make an offer to these desperate farmers and show them how to do it.


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## morrismob (27 March 2013)

I have read every post on this thread from the original post right through to the end. Never have I have been so amazed at people's small mindedness let alone their lack of compassion ( and I have read some things on here that take my breath away).

I struggle in this weather to look after my pampered 5 horses and cannot imagine the heartbreak and sheer awfulness that some of the nations farmers have been through. Their wellies are totally safe from my feet I can assure you but my god my hat is off to them !! Let's hope there is a let up for them soon. Some of you should hang your heads in shame !


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## silu (27 March 2013)

Good to read that there are some sane people on here after all. Just off to bed as away tomorrow early to help my neighbouring farmer, 400 lambed and about the same to go. Where the hell we are going to put them all I don't know as already I have 8 ewes plus their lambs in my spare stable!


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## Horseyscot (27 March 2013)

amymay said:



			Thanks for everyone's responses.

I must live in cloud cuckoo land.
		
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You obviously do. But don't worry the farmers won't notice, they're all too busy trying to save their livelihood , Not that you think so. There may be some out there who don't give a monkeys, but farming is in most farmers blood and they would do anything for their animals.

You don't have a blinking clue.


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## Twizzel (27 March 2013)

bonny said:



			I think one of the problems with complaining farmers is that a lot of people would gladly swap places with them !
		
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and most of them would probably realise after 1 day that it's bloody hard work and would also realise why the suicide rate for farmers is so high. 

Struggling to get harvest in when the weather is bad, struggling to get seed in when the weather is bad, watching the seed in fields that have been drilled rot away before your eyes, struggling to feed your livestock, up every hour god gives when a cow is calving or your sheep are lambing, never going on holiday, always having something to do, never knowing what the price of grain/livestock/forage is going to be tomorrow yet alone in 8mths time when you want to sell it, constantly having i's to dot and t's to cross, dealing with huge amounts of paperwork/ligitation/red tape... getting kicked by a heifer, losing your stock to TB, worrying about whether TB will be in your herd this year, fixing machinery that's gone wrong, working 100+ hour weeks not because you want to but because you HAVE to in order to keep the farm going. In reality many farmers will feed their animals instead of feeding themselves if it came to that point.

no it's ok, farmers have a super life bumbling around in their tractor looking after their animals who always have enough food... what an inconsiderate and naiive post that was on your behalf. Farming is something you're born into, not a choice, it's a lifestyle and not many people truely realise how difficult it can be.


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## martlin (27 March 2013)

silu said:



			Good to read that there are some sane people on here after all. Just off to bed as away tomorrow early to help my neighbouring farmer, 400 lambed and about the same to go. Where the hell we are going to put them all I don't know as already I have 8 ewes plus their lambs in my spare stable!
		
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You could put them in the hay shed? Or maybe on some pallets under a tarp from poundland


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## Pale Rider (27 March 2013)

Unusual weather catches people who farm out now and again. You can only really plan for what is usual.

We used to lamb outside, but don't any more because of unpredictable weather.

No one who farms is comfortable losing stock, emotionally it's hard, nevermind the actual cost.

Lots of things we do as farmers is stupid at times, and goes against nature, these things soon fail though. What often amuses me is looking at what I was taught in college in the 70's most of it is the complete opposite now.


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## justabob (27 March 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			Unusual weather catches people who farm out now and again. You can only really plan for what is usual.

We used to lamb outside, but don't any more because of unpredictable weather.

No one who farms is comfortable losing stock, emotionally it's hard, nevermind the actual cost.

Lots of things we do as farmers is stupid at times, and goes against nature, these things soon fail though. What often amuses me is looking at what I was taught in college in the 70's most of it is the complete opposite now.

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You must have a very small flock of lowland sheep if you can lamb all your sheep inside.


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## Pale Rider (27 March 2013)

Two sheds that hold about 200 each, so I lamb in batches. I don't start lambing until mid April though, no grass till then.


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## Potato! (27 March 2013)

Twizzel said:



			and most of them would probably realise after 1 day that it's bloody hard work and would also realise why the suicide rate for farmers is so high. 

Struggling to get harvest in when the weather is bad, struggling to get seed in when the weather is bad, watching the seed in fields that have been drilled rot away before your eyes, struggling to feed your livestock, up every hour god gives when a cow is calving or your sheep are lambing, never going on holiday, always having something to do, never knowing what the price of grain/livestock/forage is going to be tomorrow yet alone in 8mths time when you want to sell it, constantly having i's to dot and t's to cross, dealing with huge amounts of paperwork/ligitation/red tape... getting kicked by a heifer, losing your stock to TB, worrying about whether TB will be in your herd this year, fixing machinery that's gone wrong, working 100+ hour weeks not because you want to but because you HAVE to in order to keep the farm going. In reality many farmers will feed their animals instead of feeding themselves if it came to that point.

no it's ok, farmers have a super life bumbling around in their tractor looking after their animals who always have enough food... what an inconsiderate and naiive post that was on your behalf. Farming is something you're born into, not a choice, it's a lifestyle and not many people truely realise how difficult it can be.
		
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This

My OH is a hill farmer, We have been very lucky in that we dont have the snow in Devon, But that dosent means we have it easy, Very poor grass quality from all the rain last year. Now luckily we had a good harvets as he worked flat out 20hour days when we had nice weather. However they lost half the silage pit at the beginning of winter due to high winds and heavy rain which they are not insured for, There are approx 500 cows and 1500 sheep. we are running out of feed for the cows and sheep now with no grass growing to feed them. Oh to top that off they have been down with TB so have extra mouths to feed as they couldnt sell last years calves. the last straw bill was £16000, and they are running out of that too now.


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## Ranyhyn (27 March 2013)

Ours haven't come in, mainly because there is no need for them to as the weather here is bearable just. We have no provision to lamb inside, as for 50+ years we've not had to do so. However things are changing and it looks like that is going to have to change too.
This weather is unprecedented and most are caught out by it, it's no surprise farmers are too. 

My heart bleeds for those losing stock, you only have to see the tears in these tough people's eyes to know they didn't expect this and that they'd probably have done different, if they could, in hindsight. Sad to find them judged.


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## FfionWinnie (27 March 2013)

SFP is a subsidy which provides cheap food for the end user.  Without SFP the cost of production would rise and this would affect the price in the shops dramatically. 

No subsidy in NZ and a totally different standard of animal welfare over there too.  One man will be responsible for thousands and thousands of sheep. They do not help anything to survive, if it can't make it itself, it will die or be destroyed (if it's lucky).  My ewes are checked 5 times a day at lambing time, from dawn til dusk as they do not lamb when its dark (a sixteen hour day by the end of April).  Ewes are not checked like this in NZ.  

It's not so much a lack of forage but the snow has made getting to it, and getting it to the stock, difficult and in some cases impossible. 

Yes I chose to work in agriculture. If farmers didn't farm what would we eat?  If you ate today you likely need to thank a farmer. 

Folk on this thread may be quite happy not to eat meat but plenty of people do want to eat meat. Arable farming relies on livestock farming and vice versa. 

Incidentally if the hills were not grazed by hill sheep they would in short order return to impenetrable scrub. No footpaths would be maintained and walkers and horse riders alike would have far less beautiful countryside to explore.  No livestock = no leather for tack either.


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## Goodshipblossom (27 March 2013)

Just utterly confused by the people on this thread seriously suggesting farmers aren't bothered about their sheep being buried and lambs dying.


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## YorksG (27 March 2013)

I am absolutely sure that most of the people who do not farm livestock, on this thread, would not last a week on a working livestock farm in a normal year, never mind this last twelve months. To tie in the bad practice of one or two farmers, with the original question is either naive or sensationilst. The weather here has been unbelievable, was not forecast to be as it was. The amount of snow was not the major problem, the feet high drifts were. You might as well ask why the local authorities didn't put under road heating on all major routes, or miles of netting to prevent the snow from blowing onto the roads. The profit margin on sheep is small, the hourly rate of pay works out well below the minimum wage. Can't see too many queuing up to take over the hill farms round here.


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## Moomin1 (27 March 2013)

YorksG said:



			I am absolutely sure that most of the people who do not farm livestock, on this thread, would not last a week on a working livestock farm in a normal year, never mind this last twelve months. To tie in the bad practice of one or two farmers, with the original question is either naive or sensationilst. The weather here has been unbelievable, was not forecast to be as it was. The amount of snow was not the major problem, the feet high drifts were. You might as well ask why the local authorities didn't put under road heating on all major routes, or miles of netting to prevent the snow from blowing onto the roads. The profit margin on sheep is small, the hourly rate of pay works out well below the minimum wage. Can't see too many queuing up to take over the hill farms round here.
		
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You have a very very fair point.

The weather was much worse than anyone expected, or to be fair experienced before in many cases.  

Nobody should put their lives in danger.  

Of course there are bad farmers out there.  I for one know of a good few who have let their stock drown/freeze out in weather/get heat exposure etc etc.  But it's very unfair to label every farmer with the 'neglect' stamp because of the weather situation in the past couple of weeks.


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## FfionWinnie (27 March 2013)

YorksG said:



			You might as well ask why the local authorities didn't put under road heating on all major routes, or miles of netting to prevent the snow from blowing onto the roads.
		
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This is a good point yorksG, why on earth don't they do this. They could use some of those spare pallets and pound land tarps if there was a netting shortage!

I have some old heated cable which could be used under the roads. Old electric blankets could be donated to the cause. 

If the council just planned ahead, they could get this in place for next winter. 

YorksG for prime minister!


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## YorksG (27 March 2013)

FfionWinnie said:



			This is a good point yorksG, why on earth don't they do this. They could use some of those spare pallets and pound land tarps if there was a netting shortage!

I have some old heated cable which could be used under the roads. Old electric blankets could be donated to the cause. 

If the council just planned ahead, they could get this in place for next winter. 

YorksG for prime minister!
		
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I thank you  I have to say one of the laws I would try and pass, is that anyone who thought livestock farming was easy had to spend a week on a farm in January/February actually working the hours  the farmer and his family do. Just another thought, a lot of our local hill farmers are tennant farmers, so not able to raise any funds from selling/mortgaging the land or any 'spare' buildings.


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## Fii (28 March 2013)

YorksG said:



			. Just another thought, a lot of our local hill farmers are tennant farmers, so not able to raise any funds from selling/mortgaging the land or any 'spare' buildings.
		
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 This^^^^ is a very good point and one that should be taken into consideration! While rents and everything else they have to pay out is going up on a regular basis, their income isnt! Not every farmer owns their own land and (especially round here) getting planning for new buildings isnt easy...or cheap!

 I feel for the farmers in this awful weather, and some of the comments on this thread really show that some people have no idea whatsoever about farming!

 Lets hope non of you bed your horse on straw, because it will probably cost a lot more than hay this winter coming!  Then we will see all the threads about how farmers are conning you out of your hard earned money!!


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## Trinity Fox (28 March 2013)

As I have already said I am not trying to tar all with the same brush or I would have to include members of my family,Yorks g you may think I am being naive but look a couple of posts down Moomin1 state they know of a good few who have let stock freeze drown die of heat exposure etc, I also know of a good few who have done the same as do other people I know.

I always wonder why in farming you can never say anything even if wrong doing is going on,and actually this extreme weather just makes it so much worse for all the stock who are being neglected. It is always ok to indicate this sort of thing goes on in say horse dealing or the likes,but for some reason it is a sin to say it happens in farming and some of my family are in the industry.

I actually think it is rather naive to pretend it is not,or to think it hardly ever happens if this is the case I must live in a rural area with the highest incidence ever in that case.


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## YorksG (28 March 2013)

Trinity Fox said:



			As I have already said I am not trying to tar all with the same brush or I would have to include members of my family,Yorks g you may think I am being naive but look a couple of posts down Moomin1 state they know of a good few who have let stock freeze drown die of heat exposure etc, I also know of a good few who have done the same as do other people I know.

I always wonder why in farming you can never say anything even if wrong doing is going on,and actually this extreme weather just makes it so much worse for all the stock who are being neglected. It is always ok to indicate this sort of thing goes on in say horse dealing or the likes,but for some reason it is a sin to say it happens in farming and some of my family are in the industry.

I actually think it is rather naive to pretend it is not,or to think it hardly ever happens if this is the case I must live in a rural area with the highest incidence ever in that case.
		
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Your diatribe about neglectful farmers was in respons to the OP about why stock was left out in the awful weather conditions, thus implying that all those with stock on the hills etc were the neglectful farmers, this is not the case. Of course  there are farmers who are not good at their jobs, just as in aany other profession, but to the answerthe OP as you did, given the knowlege you claim to have was purely sensationalism imo


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## Moomin1 (28 March 2013)

Trinity Fox said:



			As I have already said I am not trying to tar all with the same brush or I would have to include members of my family,Yorks g you may think I am being naive but look a couple of posts down Moomin1 state they know of a good few who have let stock freeze drown die of heat exposure etc, I also know of a good few who have done the same as do other people I know.

I always wonder why in farming you can never say anything even if wrong doing is going on,and actually this extreme weather just makes it so much worse for all the stock who are being neglected. It is always ok to indicate this sort of thing goes on in say horse dealing or the likes,but for some reason it is a sin to say it happens in farming and some of my family are in the industry.

I actually think it is rather naive to pretend it is not,or to think it hardly ever happens if this is the case I must live in a rural area with the highest incidence ever in that case.
		
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I have also known of hundreds of people who I deal with daily who neglect their dogs/cats/horses/hamsters/chickens..you name it..

It's no sin to say it happens in ALL areas of animal husbandry.  But what I am saying is that to tar other farmers for the failings of some, is like tarring every dog owner for the failings of those who neglect them.


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## martlin (28 March 2013)

Trinity Fox said:



			I always wonder why in farming you can never say anything even if wrong doing is going on,and actually this extreme weather just makes it so much worse for all the stock who are being neglected. It is always ok to indicate this sort of thing goes on in say horse dealing or the likes,but for some reason it is a sin to say it happens in farming and some of my family are in the industry.
		
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A late night thought for you:
whenever a failing in NHS or Civil Service of any sort happens, we hear and read on here how overworked and underpaid are the people involved and how it isn't their fault and that we should be happy that we get anything at all;
whenever stock suffers, it's the horrible greedy farmers being neglectful and just plain lazy - they are also overworked and underpaid, so maybe we should be happy that someone, somewhere cares a bit...
and you know what, it's us, either as the taxpayer or the consumer, who pay badly and demand silly hours from both quarters, not some sort of ''them''


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## bonny (28 March 2013)

martlin said:



			A late night thought for you:
whenever a failing in NHS or Civil Service of any sort happens, we hear and read on here how overworked and underpaid are the people involved and how it isn't their fault and that we should be happy that we get anything at all;
whenever stock suffers, it's the horrible greedy farmers being neglectful and just plain lazy - they are also overworked and underpaid, so maybe we should be happy that someone, somewhere cares a bit...
and you know what, it's us, either as the taxpayer or the consumer, who pay badly and demand silly hours from both quarters, not some sort of ''them''
		
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I for one don't think that NHS workers or farmers are badly paid or that we as consumers demand silly hours from either. I think we are all talking from our own experiences and our views are dependant on our locality and as usual alot of us have different ideas on the same subject. There are good and bad farmers, same as any area of life and they certainly have varying animal welfare standards.....would be foolish not to think so. I also don't buy the how hard life is for sheep farmers at this time of year, the hours are long for a few weeks, but no one is forced to farm sheep and there are other times of the year when there isn't alot of work to be done....the weather has made this spring alot harder for sheep farmers in some areas....there are people complaining about lambing on this thread who are in areas with no snow. I live on a farm, to say the farmer here is casual about the welfare of his sheep and cattle would be an understatement.


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## martlin (28 March 2013)

You see, I don't think anybody has been actually complaining about lambing, snow or no snow, I'm certainly not complaining, although I am tired. I think people have been just trying to show a little bit of on-farm reality to the non farming folk, who maybe saw Adam on Countryfile, or Kate Humble on lambing live 

PS. I actually quite like Adam from Countryfile and would not swap jobs with him for love nor money, I'd rather lamb all night, every night than deal with people


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## Moomin1 (28 March 2013)

martlin said:



			A late night thought for you:
whenever a failing in NHS or Civil Service of any sort happens, we hear and read on here how overworked and underpaid are the people involved and how it isn't their fault and that we should be happy that we get anything at all;
whenever stock suffers, it's the horrible greedy farmers being neglectful and just plain lazy - they are also overworked and underpaid, so maybe we should be happy that someone, somewhere cares a bit...
and you know what, it's us, either as the taxpayer or the consumer, who pay badly and demand silly hours from both quarters, not some sort of ''them''
		
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No we bloomin don't!  All we hear is people saying how useless the NHS are, just like they do certain charities who are over run more than anyone could imagine.  

The NHS get slaughtered for any failings.

There are failings in every single company, charity, organisation etc that exists.  But the ones who are actively involved with highly emotive issues, ie human health or animal welfare, are always in the firing line with the slightest thing that annoys Joe Public.  Nobody bothers, after all, about going to the press to report that their weekly newspaper, for instance, never gets delivered on time and is crumpled when it does arrive...

People unfortunately always look at the negatives with regard people who are involved with human and animal welfare.  The press have little interest in reporting the positives, unless the can report it as a 'miracle' recovery etc.  They are more interested in reporting highly exaggerated and negative stories which are likely to get Joe Public interested in the story and in turn riled and angry at the so called 'offenders' which the press have spoken about.  

Human hysteria is a bizarre thing - one bad experience leads to so many exaggerations and hyped up 'stories' which have very little realism or truth in them..


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## bonny (28 March 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			No we bloomin don't!  All we hear is people saying how useless the NHS are, just like they do certain charities who are over run more than anyone could imagine.  

The NHS get slaughtered for any failings.

There are failings in every single company, charity, organisation etc that exists.  But the ones who are actively involved with highly emotive issues, ie human health or animal welfare, are always in the firing line with the slightest thing that annoys Joe Public.  Nobody bothers, after all, about going to the press to report that their weekly newspaper, for instance, never gets delivered on time and is crumpled when it does arrive...

People unfortunately always look at the negatives with regard people who are involved with human and animal welfare.  The press have little interest in reporting the positives, unless the can report it as a 'miracle' recovery etc.  They are more interested in reporting highly exaggerated and negative stories which are likely to get Joe Public interested in the story and in turn riled and angry at the so called 'offenders' which the press have spoken about.  

Human hysteria is a bizarre thing - one bad experience leads to so many exaggerations and hyped up 'stories' which have very little realism or truth in them..
		
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I think you might be going off at a tangent just a bit.....are you talking about the RSPCA here ? I thought we were discussing farming but I could be wrong ......


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## FfionWinnie (28 March 2013)

bonny said:



			I for one don't think that NHS workers or farmers are badly paid or that we as consumers demand silly hours from either. I think we are all talking from our own experiences and our views are dependant on our locality and as usual alot of us have different ideas on the same subject. There are good and bad farmers, same as any area of life and they certainly have varying animal welfare standards.....would be foolish not to think so. I also don't buy the how hard life is for sheep farmers at this time of year, the hours are long for a few weeks, but no one is forced to farm sheep and there are other times of the year when there isn't alot of work to be done....the weather has made this spring alot harder for sheep farmers in some areas....there are people complaining about lambing on this thread who are in areas with no snow. I live on a farm, to say the farmer here is casual about the welfare of his sheep and cattle would be an understatement.
		
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Clearly you don't know what you are talking about and are too ignorant to learn.  I get paid for 35 hours a week. I work 70 hours a week and at lambing time I work 112 hours a week and often get up in the middle of the night to check what's in the shed. I'm not complaining. Merely trying to educate you, however, it would appear there are wiser things eating grass (or not, as the case may be).

What are you doing living on this farm if you don't like the standard of animal welfare there, no point whining about it on here, do something about it.


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## jrp204 (28 March 2013)

Yes, farming is a choice, just like all jobs but unlike most jobs farmers provide people with FOOD. Be it meat or cereals it is still food and it doesn't miraculously appear in the supermarket. Farmers moan because often the product they produce is then sold at a price dictated by the supermarkets often below the price of production, and to the consumer still owns that food is expensive. Rules and regulations are brought in by the urban majority who will never lay their hands on the land or an animal.
We have sheep, my OH when lambing is often working an 18/20 hour day but yes, there are other times of the year when it is quieter but he will then working a 50-60 hr week instead.


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## Ranyhyn (28 March 2013)

My oh is lambing out (albeit tiny 40 flock) and does a very hard full time job as well AND we have a 7.5 month old first baby but you'll not hear him complaining-he comes alive at this time of year!!
But our livelihood doesn't depend on it, our farm is outside our back door and we have no bad weather to contend with really, compared to some.

I think those "moaning" are very often, totally validated. It's hard, it's tiring and it's stressful when your livelihood hangs on it!


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## Ranyhyn (28 March 2013)

Also, as horse owners we often complain about mud, high temps, midges, mucking out, traffic....
Yet we chose it...
It's a pretty simplistic view to say if you chose it, you can't complain!


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## Amymay (28 March 2013)

bonny said:



			I for one don't think that NHS workers or farmers are badly paid or that we as consumers demand silly hours from either.
		
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Nurses are very badly paid, and unless subsidy 'savvy', farmers aren't much better off.


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## lc1993 (28 March 2013)

Bonny you are talking absolute nonsense to suggest sheep farmers are only busy at lambing time.
Please feel free to come to our farm any day of the year an we will show you how busy it always is. Farming doesn't have holidays Christmas Day we are still out feeding livestock an checking animals.. So many idiotic posts on this thread it's actually frightening.
I bet a lot of the people slagging of farmers rely on them at some point for hay/feed/help. Not sure I would help many of you at all tbh after reading your naive views on the farming lifestyle!!


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## FfionWinnie (28 March 2013)

lc1993 said:



			I bet a lot of the people slagging of farmers rely on them at some point for hay/feed/help. Not sure I would help many of you at all tbh after reading your naive views on the farming lifestyle!!
		
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It actually makes me feel really sad to be on the receiving end of such vitriol. Why do people hate farmers so much, I can only think jealousy and ignorance is at the root of it. 

Would folk prefer to get rid of UK farmers and "rely" on imported food?  Good luck with that one.


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## amandap (28 March 2013)

YorksG said:



			Just another thought, a lot of our local hill farmers are tennant farmers, so not able to raise any funds from selling/mortgaging the land or any 'spare' buildings.
		
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... and then there's planning and National Parks. Hill sheep actually sculpt the landscape many love. Perhaps sheep should be pulled from the hills and moors and it be left to turn back to woodland and scrub? This is one reason hill farmers are subsidized. 
I doubt planning and the great British public would like to see buildings in every other field or on the hills and moors to store fodder, just in case.

ps. Farming is a choice but if you have hill land what can you diversify into? Perhaps public should pay to walk on the land? lol The choice seems to me to be farming or the dole for many.


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## RFido (28 March 2013)

I'm not a farmer... But a farmer's daughter (close enough?!). I go to all the markets with my dad as he is a fodder man, and so I get to see many people and their farm's all over the country. 

Hill farmers are in a very poor position - It is understandable that if they started trying to bring all their sheep in when the weather turned, it is likely that they would get stuck themselves, never mind find every ewe and lamb. What people have to remember is that the terrain that such farmers have, mixed with snow, high wind and open air makes a recipe for disaster and it is EXTREMELY hard for them. So i support you in this view that sometimes, in certain situations, farmers really cannot help what happens, especially with the situation at hand, as they had no idea such weather was coming and it wouldnt usually.

HOWEVER, what i saw on Friday just gone was absolutely sickening, and "farmers" such as the man I met, do not deserve to keep animals, nor do they know what to do with them. There is always two sides to any one story and this is the extreme opposite to hill farmers; We had a few inches of snow already on the ground, this man owned a small holding with around 80 ewes, some of which had lambs at foot that were a few days old... His farm was across around 40/45 acres and all that was flat and mainly visible from the farm house/yard..... He decided to turn all his sheep and lambs out. My dad noted to him that we were expecting more snow, and he replied with 'Sheep are hardy enough, lad' (He was about 15 years younger than my Dad, which royally p****d him off!). I was disgusted. 

I agree that sometimes, it cannot be helped. But I also think that there are many 'farmers' now days that don't have the love and affection for the animals, nor the passion of being a countryman and pride of having a thriving farm - many have the mentally that if they are on the fields, they arent in the sheds and therefore, no feed has to be bought. It's very sad, but thats the way some farmers are nowadays. (In no way am I accusing you of this at all - hill farming is a completely different kettle of fish and I respect you, as it is probably one of the hardest types of farm to keep afloat!)


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## Suelin (28 March 2013)

FfionWinnie said:



			It actually makes me feel really sad to be on the receiving end of such vitriol. Why do people hate farmers so much, I can only think jealousy and ignorance is at the root of it. 

Would folk prefer to get rid of UK farmers and "rely" on imported food?  Good luck with that one.
		
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I absolutely do not hate farmers.  I have the utmost respect for those family run farms that turn out every day of the year and work unrelenting hours in all possible weather.  We have one next to us and they are wonderful hardworking people   Just wanted you to know that some of us really appreciate the contribution that our farmers make to our economy, landscape and food availability.
We could all do more to help by only buying British foodstuff.  I have done for as long as I can remember and I openly complain about the lack of British products as well.  

My heart goes out to those farmers who have lost livestock; and to those who would vilify them, it is wise to walk a mile in someone else's shoes before making a judgement


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## Festive_Felicitations (28 March 2013)

Another completely shocked by some of the posts on this thread! I just hope there are lots of people reading and learning.



BWa said:



			My blood pressure can't take anymore of this, I'm out of this thread it is making me question the social direction this country is heading in. One way ticket to New Zealand anyone?
		
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I'm not even a farmer and it was making my blood boil! Hope your blood pressure has recovered!



Maesfen said:



			You really wouldn't like their standards of animal welfare particularly for farm animals, I can assure you.

They block cover their cows but if any don't calve within their time limit they either abort them or shoot the cow; they go round the paddocks shooting any bull calves; they never use the vet just leave them to either get on with it or die and have a hard job to check their animals once a day even when calving.  The sheep don't fare any better either so please don't say NZ is the place to go; if you're an animal lover it most certainly isn't.  That butter advert is a joke.
		
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I've also spent a fair bit of time in NZ (all of it on farms) and have never come across some of the practices you mention. Was the ^ on a dairy farm? It is one of the industries I have had little to do with so far.

My experience has been that: yes calling the vet was unheard of on some properties (time and economically just not viable) and they would either shoot the animal or bring it down to the yards to care for it as best they could. Most having a fairly decent stock of basic drugs on hand, and knowledge of how to treat most cureable aliments. 

Sadly on 48,000 acres of mountain it is not possible to check all 13,000 head of stock regularly so natural selection plays a role in herd survival - same as it does for any wild animal. And going by the large, very fit & grumpy feral bull we ran into one day some are thriving a bit too well! 

I'm sure there are some places that are worse than others but don't tar the whole nation with one brush! I quite like the Kiwis 



gadetra said:



			Oh dear god. I have never read such drivel in all my days. Having been borna and reared on a farm I find it incredible, really incredible how ignorant people can be about how meat lands ont heir plates.
Space for all of them? Are you serious? Should we knit jumpers and blankets to tuck them into as well? Hill sheep are bred to live out, yean out, and an awful lot of farmers can't afford massive yeaning sheds. 
These are exceptional circumstances. The weather and the year it's been have conspired to create truely ****e conditions. We rear finishers for beef and everything is still in the shed with no sign of grass to come yet and silage running out. Also one of my fathers friends up north put his sheep in, only for the old wooden trusses in the shed to collapse with the weight of snow on it and kill all inside.
Also remember a lot of what is dug out alive will die, the shock, cold and lack of feed will finish them off. So that's a ewe and lamb lost. 
Whole livelihoods have been wiped out. Farmers have been left with nothing from herds built up over generations. If anyone seriously thinks they left livestock out to die needs their heads examined. 
If anyone wants to step into our wellies go ahead-getting up before when you are well within single digits to milk, feed or fodther (don't know the english word for it) cattle and the same when you get home in all weathers. You grow up working, there are NEVER lie-ins, or holidays. We can't afford to pay someone to look after our stock so my parents have never been on a holiday. Ever in their lives. It is a 24 hour job, 365 days a year. It's hard, long, tough work, and it is relentless. You are at the mercy of nature and very very little money is made. It is something in your blood, your soul. Farmers are born over here, not made. 
Add to this how much grain has risen in price over the years and beef prices have dropped? You do the maths. Every animal is precious, and no farmer leaves profit out to die in a field cos they can't be bothered looking after it.
I'm going to stop now, before I begin spitting with rage. I could triple the length of this post! Such levels of self riteous ignorance incense me. Sin é I am out!
		
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To add to the above wise words of wisdom and common sense/ rational.

Worked on a farm where it cost $80 (excluding labour and property maintaince) to get a lamb to market age. The farmer that year expected to get $82 at market.
He has a mortgage on his property (ridiculously valued at over $20 million) of which he is the second generation trying to pay it off. He has 100s of km of fencing and yards/infrastruce to maintain and then salaries of the 2 staff he employs and I haven't even brought up the red tape costs... 
All of this is meant to be paid for off the $2 head he was going to make. Even selling 4,000 head that is only *$8,000 profit for the YEAR *



FfionWinnie said:



			No subsidy in NZ and a totally different standard of animal welfare over there too.  One man will be responsible for thousands and thousands of sheep. They do not help anything to survive, if it can't make it itself, it will die or be destroyed (if it's lucky).  My ewes are checked 5 times a day at lambing time, from dawn til dusk as they do not lamb when its dark (a sixteen hour day by the end of April).  Ewes are not checked like this in NZ.  

Yes I chose to work in agriculture. If farmers didn't farm what would we eat?  If you ate today you likely need to thank a farmer.
		
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I also work in Ag but in a very different climate to the UK/Europe  I was fairly astonished the first time I heard people on here talking about helping ewes during lambing! I knew it was done but not as standard practice. And brining them in?  a very forigen concept!

They way I have seen everything done is that near lambing/calving you make sure the ewes/cows are on the best and most sheltered feed and check on them when you can but certainly not sit up all night with them! More likely go out spotlighting for wild pigs/dogs/foxes which can cause significant losses in some areas especially in sheep.
A 'successful' lambing was an 80-95% lambing rate not 110% which I heard someone on here mention once!

It is a very different world out here....  


Thoughts with all farmers who have suffered flood, fire or snow so far this year.


Totally random question/thought. Here they have a volunteer organisation called 'Blaze Aid' it is a group who co-ordinate volunteers to help farmers rebuild/recover after bushfires go through. It works anywhere in the country help is needed. It is entierly volunteer and costs no one anything as as well as coordinating volunteer labour they organise food (donated) to feed the volunteers so most of the time all the farmers have to provide is a bit of land for people to camp on. 

In the much more densely populated UK surely it would be possible to arrange something similar?


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## Vixen Van Debz (28 March 2013)

Friend of a friend back in the worst hit area in N.I. did put his sheep indoors. However, the weight of the snow collapsed the building, killing most of the sheep inside. It is not a cure all solution, especially when many are without power too. Besides, most of the farmers with some snow are alright (though clearly it's far from ideal and they're not thriving). It's those without the warning that the snow would be of apocalyptic proportions whereby they would need food choppered to their houses in the end, never mind to their livestock, that are suffering on the level of devastation. Things are rarely as simple as they seem


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## cronkmooar (28 March 2013)

*I AM RE POSTING THIS POST FROM MYSELF AS CUFFEY HAS BEEN SUFFICIENTLY OFFENDED TO PM ME.  THE WAY THE QUOTED POSTS HAVE GROUPED TOGETHER APPEARS TO HAVE CAUSED CONFUSION - HOWEVER, I WOULD HAVE THOUGHT MY PREVIOUS POSTS WOULD HAVE MADE IT PERFECTLY CLEAR THAT I AM NOT ON THE FARMER BASHING TRAIN*



cptrayes said:



			I am surprised that farmers would stock their land higher than they can feed in the event of a bit of adverse weather. This is not "once in a lifetime" conditions.  If they have no feed, what were they planning to feed their nursing and in lamb  sheep, which in the Peaks are fed at this time of year, snow or no snow?


Is the IoM in the EU?   Since the single payment, based on land area not stocking numbers, the stock levels here are markedly lower.
		
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*This part of my post is referring to the comments made by cptrayes above*

You really are not only irritating and rude but also ignorant on so many levels.

Your time might be better off actually educating yourself rather than spouting drivel on an equine forum.

I will make this slightly easier for you 

1.  It most certainly is once in a lifetime conditions here - and elsewhere if you take the time to read this thread;
2.  The Isle of Man is not in the EU neither is it in the UK

I would also suggest that you re read this thread and note the comments from those that know what they are talking about with regard to farming before commenting again

*The post below was copied to indicate to cyptres that it is not just the Isle of Man that has been affected by lack of fodder for agricultural animals*


Cuffey said:



			I have a local farmer now looking for 40 round bales of hay for his sheep
Never known him have to advertise before, in a 'normal year' he would make sufficient to last the winter--in 2012 it just did not happen.
		
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*I HOPE THAT MAKES THIS POST CLEARER*


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## RunToEarth (28 March 2013)

YorksG said:



			I thank you  I have to say one of the laws I would try and pass, is that anyone who thought livestock farming was easy had to spend a week on a farm in January/February actually working the hours  the farmer and his family do. Just another thought, a lot of our local hill farmers are tennant farmers, so not able to raise any funds from selling/mortgaging the land or any 'spare' buildings.
		
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Thank you YorksG - very sensible words. 

Sometimes this forum just angers me, if the rest of the country are so ignorant to how farming operates we really are without a paddle in this. 

I have read, for the last few weeks so many posts about how this weather is rubbish, how people are struggling to do their two horses, how their haylage costs are going up again, and how they have to spend at extra 20minutes a day because of this foul weather. 

My parents are dairy farmers. Last year when the weather was rubbish, the silaging was taking forever and places were flooding, the milk crisis arrived, just when everyone in the industry was fed up enough. This week they were snowed in, the milk tanker couldn't get up the lane and they ended up tipping thousands of litres of milk into the slurry pit. They are milking over 300 cows, they don't do it for fun and if you think it is easy I would urge you to take on YorksG's suggestion, get up at 4.30am and milk in the snow. 

Thinking long and hard about this, I am going to confidently write that I cannot for one moment think that any farmer who had livestock out when this snow hit thought for one moment they were going to lose them. No farmer/businessman/human being would have left them out there in the snow to die if they had thought for one moment there was any other alternative. I would also hazard a guess that digging livestock out of snowdrifts is in no way fun/exciting or even a remotely easy job to do. 

It must be lovely for everyone who has no involvement, you can ride along the bridleways and drive past the hedgerows in your cars and think that life on the other side continues in a pool of content. The industry has just had 18 months of hell. Rubbish harvest, yields well down, root and veg crops left in the ground and no one really got much drilling done in the autumn because it was too wet. It's still below six degrees and its still wet, so all those hoping they could compensate with spring drilling are still in the rubbish. We've had Schmallenberg to deal with, a dairy crisis, grain traders screwing producers over brought forward contracts, SFP on its way out with CAP reform - and now the industry leaders are in crisis talks over the rising death toll of livestock following yet more rubbish weather. 

Farmers with piles of dead ewes in their yards are also going to have to stump up the knacker man's costs - and the only positive trend that seems to be evident since the start of 2012 is the figures released by Farmers Weekly suggesting that as all this rubbish started, the suicide rate has risen. 

People always say that farmers do the whole "woe is me" speech, but after I read how much people are struggling with a couple of horses I do wonder how they might cope with 550 dairy cows and still manage to meet everyone's criticism of the industry with some form of dry smile.


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## cronkmooar (28 March 2013)

*Below is an extract from our local paper today, which perhaps those that consider it cruel to leave livestock outside might be interested in:*

"A Farmer who lost half her livestock when two shed roofs collapsed on top of them has described the incident as heatbreaking.

[FARMERS NAME], who farms at Kirk Michael moved her stock into the sheds to shelter them from the freezing conditions outside.

The roofs of two of the sheds colapsed at 7am on Saturday after they had around FIVE TO SIX FOOT of snow on top of them.

The decision to shelter the livestock is something that [NAME OF FARMER] regrets.  She said "I regret bringing them in, if I had left those sheep out they would have been alive.  

When the weather is bad we bring the livestock closer to home.  I've never seen snow like it here, you see it in other countries but you never expect it here.  The snow was horrendous on the Saturday morning, the two main sheds were filled with cattle and sheep.  There are now sheep going round with no lambs".

The family lost cows, calves, sheep and lambs.  Many sheep that survived had to be later put down by a vet.

The steel sheds, which they died in, were only purchased by the family a year ago.

The farmer, who has spent the last few days in tears had 450 sheep and over 70 cows, the farmer said she knew all the cows by name and its not all about money.  It is absolutely sickening what has happened.

The first two days I was running on adrenalin, now I start crying when I see the sheds.

We have to pay for the livestock to be taken away and incinerated.  It is hard going"

There is also a picture of the buildings and I can tell you that the sheds are flattened.  The Government have also anounced that farmers will not be charged for the removal of dead stock


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## TJP (28 March 2013)

I haven't read all the posts on this thread as my blood pressure couldn't stick it.  Some of the posts on here are unbelievable.  
There is a lack of fooder for animals, due to weather, last years crop was terrible.  A few examples of what people are dealing with.  
I brought all the horses in as they would be 'safer'.  What I did not expect was that the weight of the snow would bring part of the upper yards roof down.  Fortunately the tractor was parked up there and the roof landed on the tractor, saved part of the roof, and let the 2 horses up there escape from their stables into the sandschool.  
A friend has lost 2 sheds, 1 machinery and the other on top of 60 cattle, saved by the fact the metal feeder running down the middle of the shed helped prop the roof off the cattle.  Others were literally standing and keeping sections up on their backs.  
Another neighbour has his whole machinery shed down, another has his cattle shed down, a friend spent 7 hours with a digger getting a mare home from the field.   Another is currently buying silage at £30 a bale as the cattle should be out on the fields by now and he has ran out of fodder.  A friend is planning a 120 mile round trip to collect hay.  
People with livestock are running out of feed and feed merchants cannot reach them.  
The bringing the animals in is a damned if you do, damned if you don't. 
I would recommend  people who can sit and 'judge' that the farmers are doing it all wrong have an attempt at keeping livestock safe in these conditions themselves.


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## RunToEarth (28 March 2013)

bonny said:



			I think one of the problems with complaining farmers is that a lot of people would gladly swap places with them !
		
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I can understand why a person who has absolutely no concept of the industry, constraints and limitations of any kind of farming in the UK may feel this way. 

In this fluffy world that some posters on this thread seem to live in, it would be absolutely wonderful to be a farmer. You could get up, play with the livestock, have a drive in the tractor and talk to half of the villagers like they did on Emmerdale Farm, and then you would have the rest of the day free to indulge in riding anywhere you like without any consequences because you own it. Farmers have lots of buildings, hay and straw as well so lots of pink ponies can live there. 

In reality farming is bloody hell and hard work and I am more than happy for you to come stay with me for a week and see what you make of it. Parents are dairy farmers, OH is arable and I am a land agent and spend most of my days at the moment visiting other farmers who have had an equally hellish time trying to keep head above water. This afternoon quite literally as I will be on the side of a still very swollen and tidal river Trent.


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## mirage (28 March 2013)

I'm shocked by some of the ignorance spouted on this threadMy family are farmers and usually bring in the due to lamb ewes and keep them in until the lambs are strong enough to go out.However,due to the wet ground and biting cold,we couldn't actually get any sheep back to the fields once they'd lambed,the tractor and trailer just sank into the gateways,so,until today,they have all been in yards,under barns,in pens constructed of straw bales as there is no where else for them to go.

I am not a farmer,it is too much hard work for too little money,but my parents and relations who are, are all over 70,apart from one,are they are putting in long,physically arduous days of endless feeding,bedding down,watering,bottle feeding,lambing.Me and my non farming sister are going down to help before and after our normal jobs,as are my daughters,as they need all the help they can get at the minute.It makes looking after our ponies feel like a walk in the park compared to the relentless slog that farming is.


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## Bertieb123 (28 March 2013)

gadetra said:



			Oh dear god. I have never read such drivel in all my days. Having been borna and reared on a farm I find it incredible, really incredible how ignorant people can be about how meat lands ont heir plates.
Space for all of them? Are you serious? Should we knit jumpers and blankets to tuck them into as well? Hill sheep are bred to live out, yean out, and an awful lot of farmers can't afford massive yeaning sheds. 
These are exceptional circumstances. The weather and the year it's been have conspired to create truely ****e conditions. We rear finishers for beef and everything is still in the shed with no sign of grass to come yet and silage running out. Also one of my fathers friends up north put his sheep in, only for the old wooden trusses in the shed to collapse with the weight of snow on it and kill all inside.
Also remember a lot of what is dug out alive will die, the shock, cold and lack of feed will finish them off. So that's a ewe and lamb lost. 
Whole livelihoods have been wiped out. Farmers have been left with nothing from herds built up over generations. If anyone seriously thinks they left livestock out to die needs their heads examined. 
If anyone wants to step into our wellies go ahead-getting up before when you are well within single digits to milk, feed or fodther (don't know the english word for it) cattle and the same when you get home in all weathers. You grow up working, there are NEVER lie-ins, or holidays. We can't afford to pay someone to look after our stock so my parents have never been on a holiday. Ever in their lives. It is a 24 hour job, 365 days a year. It's hard, long, tough work, and it is relentless. You are at the mercy of nature and very very little money is made. It is something in your blood, your soul. Farmers are born over here, not made. 
Add to this how much grain has risen in price over the years and beef prices have dropped? You do the maths. Every animal is precious, and no farmer leaves profit out to die in a field cos they can't be bothered looking after it.
I'm going to stop now, before I begin spitting with rage. I could triple the length of this post! Such levels of self riteous ignorance incense me. Sin é I am out!
		
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HERE HERE! people once again spouting off when they do not know the true facts! Yes we have extreme weather and yes Farmers loosing stock. Perhaps stop and think also some farms are handed down gereration to generation along with the 'bloodlines' (of animals) do you all really think they want to loose any? do you think they are happy watching helplessly? all the hard work, blood, sweat and tears for nothing? If you all so concerned what are YOU actually doing about it, have you volunteered to help out when you possibly know someone is struggling here? some comments really are not helpful, I feel for all those who are in this awful position.


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## touchstone (28 March 2013)

Here is the clip of the hill farmer I mentioned, it also gives the reasons why it isn't always in the animals best interests to be indoors:-  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-21959368

He certainly looks like someone who cares for his stock to me.


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## Maesfen (28 March 2013)

Forgive the blue but I can't work out how to do multi quotes from one post! 



Festive_Felicitations said:



			Another completely shocked by some of the posts on this thread! I just hope there are lots of people reading and learning.
I've also spent a fair bit of time in NZ (all of it on farms) and have never come across some of the practices you mention. Was the ^ on a dairy farm? It is one of the industries I have had little to do with so far.

I'm sure there are some places that are worse than others but don't tar the whole nation with one brush! I quite like the Kiwis 

This was a dairy plant where a friend went on placement for a year.  He couldn't believe the callousness that went on, not only there but several other plants in that area.  He lost a lot of respect for those responsible for these actions, very barbaric.

I was fairly astonished the first time I heard people on here talking about helping ewes during lambing! I knew it was done but not as standard practice. And brining them in?  a very forigen concept!

A 'successful' lambing was an 80-95% lambing rate not 110% which I heard someone on here mention once!

It is a very different world out here....  

While there might be many problems within the industry, that is one of the core strengths; the farmers actually care about their stock and would not leave lambing/calving to chance like that.  It's one of the reasons British Farming is better than so many other countries.


Totally random question/thought. Here they have a volunteer organisation called 'Blaze Aid' it is a group who co-ordinate volunteers to help farmers rebuild/recover after bushfires go through. It works anywhere in the country help is needed. It is entierly volunteer and costs no one anything as as well as coordinating volunteer labour they organise food (donated) to feed the volunteers so most of the time all the farmers have to provide is a bit of land for people to camp on. 

In the much more densely populated UK surely it would be possible to arrange something similar?
		
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Yes, it's called community spirit.  I'm sure I'm not alone when I say if there is a problem then everyone locally lends a hand without ever having to be asked.


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## bonny (28 March 2013)

I think 2 things are different about farming here and in NZ/Australia......one is there are no subsidies so farmers don't tend to employ extra help at busy times and everything has to be as cheaply as possible and also the size of the farms. Sheep tend to live on huge ranches where they have to be able to survive on their own, often checked once a day at lambing if they are lucky.  Any that need assistance to lamb are culled.


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## CorvusCorax (28 March 2013)

So, what about the neighbour that brought in as many of his sheep as he could, only for his shed roof to collapse under the weight of the snow on Friday night, trapping and killing many.

He is about to retire a 58-year farming career because he can't take any more, his father was a farmer before him, and his farmer before that.
The same area was wiped of all cattle and sheep during Foot and Mouth.
Any expert advice out there for him? I suppose he did wrong by not leaving them out to get buried in drifts too.


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## bonny (28 March 2013)

CaveCanem said:



			So, what about the neighbour that brought in as many of his sheep as he could, only for his shed roof to collapse under the weight of the snow on Friday night, trapping and killing many.

He is about to retire a 58-year farming career because he can't take any more, his father was a farmer before him, and his farmer before that.
The same area was wiped of all cattle and sheep during Foot and Mouth.
Any expert advice out there for him? I suppose he did wrong by not leaving them out to get buried in drifts too.
		
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Everybody can only do their best and he could hardly have foreseen the shed would collapse. A tragic accident....Can't help but think that if he's been farming for 58 years he must be of an age where he is due to retire anyway......


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## CorvusCorax (28 March 2013)

Nope, not around here.


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## meesha (28 March 2013)

It is just heartbreaking to watch on TV, I have nothing but admiration for those farmers who are dealing with this unprecedented weather.  if I was close enough to help I would be there with my shovel, I just hope they all stay safe themselves, watched as one lady farmer pulled out a sheep from a snow drift only to get smacked in the face with its horns...


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## Bertieb123 (28 March 2013)

bonny said:



			Everybody can only do their best and he could hardly have foreseen the shed would collapse. A tragic accident....Can't help but think that if he's been farming for 58 years he must be of an age where he is due to retire anyway......
		
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Now the end of that post is a REAL INSULT! how dare you say that! How very heartless, so you under 60 these day's and on the scrap heap! Given a life time to farming, put food on your plate etc, about time some people got in the real world.


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## YorksG (28 March 2013)

The poster who thinks that all farmers will retire after 58 years in the industry simply shows their own ignorance, and therefore their inability to comment with any intelligence on the subject.


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## bonny (28 March 2013)

Bertieb123 said:



			Now the end of that post is a REAL INSULT! how dare you say that! How very heartless, so you under 60 these day's and on the scrap heap! Given a life time to farming, put food on your plate etc, about time some people got in the real world.
		
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I doubt he started farming at the age of 2 !! The quote was that he had a 58 year career in farming, not that he was that age. Hardly an insult, so calm down.


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## bonny (28 March 2013)

YorksG said:



			The poster who thinks that all farmers will retire after 58 years in the industry simply shows their own ignorance, and therefore their inability to comment with any intelligence on the subject.
		
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Ok, I am completely clueless.....never seen an old farmer in my life !!


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## Bertieb123 (28 March 2013)

bonny said:



			I doubt he started farming at the age of 2 !! The quote was that he had a 58 year career in farming, not that he was that age. Hardly an insult, so calm down.
		
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 NO I think YOU should calm down dear! AND read things properly I actually said "so you are under 60 these day's and on the scrap heap" Don't think I stated he was 60 And I would suspect he probably has more Knowledge and life skills in his little finger than you (and I and most people) Why be so insulting? I am afraid that is not a way to get your point across.


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## bonny (28 March 2013)

Bertieb123 said:



			NO I think YOU should calm down dear! AND read things properly I actually said "so you are under 60 these day's and on the scrap heap" Don't think I stated he was 60 And I would suspect he probably has more Knowledge and life skills in his little finger than you (and I and most people) Why be so insulting? I am afraid that is not a way to get your point across.

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ok, pedantic but if you want me to read your post properly you said "so you are under 60 these day's and on the scrap heap" which makes no sense at all !
I assumed you meant I was thinking anyone over 60 was on the scrapheap hence why I replied I doubted the farmer in question started work at the age of 2 ...
oh and I'm perfectly calm and I'm not insulting anyone so please stop saying that I am.


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## CorvusCorax (28 March 2013)

Farmers (and their Fourtraks ) tend to work until they drop here, literally.
There is genuinely no other industry here, it's mountains or the sea, you either farm, fish, or travel elsewhere to work.

Our other neighbours, from granda in his 80s to grandaughter in her teens, have barely been home since Friday, they have 1100 sheep over multiple locations.


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## FfionWinnie (28 March 2013)

bonny said:



			I think 2 things are different about farming here and in NZ/Australia......one is there are no subsidies so farmers don't tend to employ extra help at busy times and everything has to be as cheaply as possible and also the size of the farms. Sheep tend to live on huge ranches where they have to be able to survive on their own, often checked once a day at lambing if they are lucky.  Any that need assistance to lamb are culled.
		
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Some are culled, an awful lot will just die a long lingering death. 

So you'd prefer to import from NZ?



bonny said:



*Ok, I am completely clueless*.....never seen an old farmer in my life !!
		
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Shan't disagree with you there!


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## Bertieb123 (28 March 2013)

bonny said:



			ok, pedantic but if you want me to read your post properly you said "so you are under 60 these day's and on the scrap heap" which makes no sense at all !
I assumed you meant I was thinking anyone over 60 was on the scrapheap hence why I replied I doubted the farmer in question started work at the age of 2 ...
oh and I'm perfectly calm and I'm not insulting anyone so please stop saying that I am.
		
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MAKES NO SENCE AT ALL? yes you are correct I was thinking you are trying to say anyone over 60 is on the scrap heap! and I found that insulting.


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## MurphysMinder (28 March 2013)

bonny said:



			Ok, I am completely clueless.....never seen an old farmer in my life !!
		
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I'm not a farmer but the shop I work in has a lot of farming customers.  Very few of them are retired, they just keep going until they drop


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## DizzyDoughnut (28 March 2013)

Can't believe what I've just read on this thread  
Now what I know about farming could probably be fitted onto the back of postage stamp, but to say that farmers just left their stock out to suffer. seriously  I'm on the isle of man and have spent my days off work this week out searching for sheep, the farmer who's sheep we were searching for certainly did care and was in tears more than once while trying to explain where we could and couldn't safely ish search and thanking people for turning up. To say that he and alot of other farmers were neglectful and just didn't bother to try and prepare i find quite offensive to me let alone the farmers themselves

Yes the weather probably was predicted but how many times is snow predicted and how many times do we get either no snow or just a few inches which I'm fairly sure any self respecting hill sheep would cope perfectly well with, I doubt anyone was expecting it to be quite as severe as it turned out to be here. I know if i had actually seen the weather forecast  and seen snow predicted I'd probably still have left my ponies out because I wouldn't have expected the huge amount of snow and drifts that arrived i'd have expected a few inches on the ground. Luckily for my ponies with me as their neglectful owner they are on a part where we didn't have so much snow, because even after realising the snow was going to be bad I left them out anyway because I worried that if I got them in then couldn't get back to them they'd be stuck in and be pretty much stuffed. They used to live on one of the farms that has been on the news showing people digging out sheep I dread to think of if I made the same choice there.

Whoever it was that said the sheep should have been brought lower down here..... have you ever been to the isalnd?


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## bonny (28 March 2013)

DizzyDoughnut said:



			Can't believe what I've just read on this thread  
Now what I know about farming could probably be fitted onto the back of postage stamp, but to say that farmers just left their stock out to suffer. seriously  I'm on the isle of man and have spent my days off work this week out searching for sheep, the farmer who's sheep we were searching for certainly did care and was in tears more than once while trying to explain where we could and couldn't safely ish search and thanking people for turning up. To say that he and alot of other farmers were neglectful and just didn't bother to try and prepare i find quite offensive to me let alone the farmers themselves

Yes the weather probably was predicted but how many times is snow predicted and how many times do we get either no snow or just a few inches which I'm fairly sure any self respecting hill sheep would cope perfectly well with, I doubt anyone was expecting it to be quite as severe as it turned out to be here. I know if i had actually seen the weather forecast  and seen snow predicted I'd probably still have left my ponies out because I wouldn't have expected the huge amount of snow and drifts that arrived i'd have expected a few inches on the ground.

Whoever it was that said the sheep should have been brought lower down here..... have you ever been to the isalnd?
		
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Despite the length of this thread and it's various tangents I think the OP was simply wondering why farmers didn't bring their stock in and lots of people have answered that.


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## cronkmooar (28 March 2013)

Well hello there fellow Manxie 

Hope you seen my one woman battle against one particular know it all on here.  

Glad there are now reinforcements to the cause


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## cronkmooar (28 March 2013)

bonny said:



			Despite the length of this thread and it's various tangents I think the OP was simply wondering why farmers didn't bring their stock in and lots of people have answered that.
		
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With all due respect, one particular poster specifically stated that the farmers on the Isle of Man were negligent in the care of their livestock and then had others jump on the band wagon agreeing with them.

I think those of us that live here are more than justified in setting the record straight


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## bonny (28 March 2013)

cronkmooar said:



			With all due respect, one particular poster specifically stated that the farmers on the Isle of Man were negligent in the care of their livestock and then had others jump on the band wagon agreeing with them.

I think those of us that live here are more than justified in setting the record straight
		
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I imagine the farmers on the Isle of Man were more caught out than most by the snow and how long it's lasted.....how are things there now ?


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## DizzyDoughnut (28 March 2013)

bonny said:



			Despite the length of this thread and it's various tangents I think the OP was simply wondering why farmers didn't bring their stock in and lots of people have answered that.
		
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Fair enough the OP was just asking a question... but the responses that followed are just beyond belief 

*waves to cronkmooar*


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## Bertieb123 (28 March 2013)

cronkmooar said:



			With all due respect, one particular poster specifically stated that the farmers on the Isle of Man were negligent in the care of their livestock and then had others jump on the band wagon agreeing with them.

I think those of us that live here are more than justified in setting the record straight
		
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TOO TRUE with you all the way on this, so easy for people to post their thoughts and not know the true facts.


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## SusieT (28 March 2013)

Farming as a job is a choice. if you don't like it, get another one. 
Even my local farm vets think it is disgraceful-they knew there were red snow warnings. Moaning that it will cost too much money to look after your animals properly or that it's too much like hard work isn't really acceptable(bearing in mind plenty of benefits of farming lifestyle hence why people stick to it). Instead of lording farmers as a special 'breed' of people accept there are bad eggs in all jobs and the ones we constantly see paraded across tv are the ones who aren't good at their job. 
I have yet to know a farmer who cares enough about his stock to not squeeze as many into the slatted pen as possible, feed them only as much silage as they need over winter if they are useful (e.g in beef leaving the heifers/youngstock to half starve as an 'economy/practicality'). 
Many sheep farmers wouldn't call a vet because the cost is not worth it - some without a gun will just leave stock to die. The reason the farmers are upset about losing sheep is the value of the sheep, not normally because they feel attached to the animals. the reason you are all up checking your sheep is because otherwise yourisk losing a lamb which is to risk losing money. 
And that's the bitter 'practicality' of it and if animals rights (to shelter, food, water, approriate care) are written off as being over ridden when 'practicalities' are necessary or it is too much hard work or money is involved then we can stop considering ourselves a developed nation. 
Offended? Feel I don't know the true facts? Tough. It's easy to get defensive when you know it's true.


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## Fii (28 March 2013)

FfionWinnie said:



			Some are culled, an awful lot will just die a long lingering death.
		
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 old farmers or sheep?


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## cronkmooar (28 March 2013)

SusieT, you are an idiot

**waves back at dizzydoughnut**


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## YorksG (28 March 2013)

.When we got our three sheep they were part of a group of 12 'pet' lambs (there had been problems with the lambing) the milk powder used to get them to the stage where they could be expected to cope was 60 pounds. The chap we bought them from declined to let us have the three smallest, as he felt that they may not be healthy as they grew, but he said "you have to give them a chance".He sold the three we got for the price of the milk powder and delivered them. Please do not think that you know the mindset of all livestock farmers SuzieT as you obviously do not.


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## bonny (28 March 2013)

YorksG said:



			.When we got our three sheep they were part of a group of 12 'pet' lambs (there had been problems with the lambing) the milk powder used to get them to the stage where they could be expected to cope was 60 pounds. The chap we bought them from declined to let us have the three smallest, as he felt that they may not be healthy as they grew, but he said "you have to give them a chance".He sold the three we got for the price of the milk powder and delivered them. Please do not think that you know the mindset of all livestock farmers SuzieT as you obviously do not.
		
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A lot of farmers will give orphaned lambs away as they are not considered worth the hassle of raising.....


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## CorvusCorax (28 March 2013)

I'm just looking at pics of my neighbours taking bales of haylege up the mountain on a specially-hired snowmobile. And imagining barely-literate pensioners with no qualifications who've never known anything but farming, queuing up at the job centre to 'get another job'....cause they are already so plentiful on the ground.


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## YorksG (28 March 2013)

bonny said:



			A lot of farmers will give orphaned lambs away as they are not considered worth the hassle of raising.....
		
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what rot, read my post again.


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## bonny (28 March 2013)

YorksG said:



			what rot, read my post again.
		
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Why is it rot ? It's a fact and yes, I read your post again .....


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## Fii (28 March 2013)

SusieT, if you think farmers dont care, maybe you should actually talk to some, the dairy farmer in tears who had to sell the  herd his father started , because the eu/government, says he has to change his slurry pit to their directive, cant remember what, but it would cost him thousands , money  he couldnt afford to spend as he is a tenant farmer, the farm doesnt belong to him, and his sons were off doing other things and not interested in taking over from him.  Can you imagine, developing a herd over sixty years, breeding for quality, Knowing every cow by name as well as number, over all that time and in the end seeing them sold at market, the herd split and then going home at the end of the day to an empty farm!!!


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## DizzyDoughnut (28 March 2013)

SuzieT... What exactly should they have done then? you'd bring thousands of sheep off the hills and put them where exactly?  and then what if you had your many sheep in a shed and the as has happened the roof collapses? you're doomed whatever you do as far as i can see

And I'm not suggesting there aren't bad farmers around I'm sure there are just as there are in every other profession. But this was very extreme weather that happens once in a lifetime. And of course they will also not be happy about the loss of money, farming is a business after all, i'm assuming they need the money to keep on farming, you can't feed whatever animals you have left and pay your bills off fresh air can you. That doesn't make them all bad people or neglectful.

As I have said I know very little about farming and really would like to know exactly what you would have done if you were in their position that would have prevented this?


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## sarahann1 (28 March 2013)

I feel incredibly sorry for all the farmers out there who are doing there utmost to get by in horrific conditions. Farmers really are unsung heros, you deserve far more respect than you have been shown by some on here.

There was a video posted on twitter earlier that nearly had me in tears at work today of a welsh farmer desperately digging out his ewes, some alive some dead 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VXauxePfgk&feature=youtu.be


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## TJP (28 March 2013)

Bonny & SusieT I shall quote part of my earlier post and ask.  What would you have done differently to make the animals safer?  To prove that myself, or my farmer neighbours, actually 'care' for the animals we own.  Over to you!!



TJP said:



			I brought all the horses in as they would be 'safer'........... the weight of the snow would bring part of the upper yards roof down.  Fortunately the tractor was parked up there and the roof landed on the tractor, saved part of the roof, and let the 2 horses up there escape from their stables into the sandschool.  

A friend has lost 2 sheds, 1 machinery and the other on top of 60 cattle, saved by the fact the metal feeder running down the middle of the shed helped prop the roof off the cattle.  Others were literally standing and keeping sections up on their backs.  

Another neighbour has his whole machinery shed down, another has his cattle shed down, a friend spent 7 hours with a digger getting a mare home from the field.  

Another is currently buying silage at £30 a bale as the cattle should be out on the fields by now and he has ran out of fodder.  

A friend is planning a 120 mile round trip to collect hay (see above for reason).....  
QUOTE]
		
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## bonny (28 March 2013)

I think Susie T's point was that it is all about money not care....which I think is fair enough actually, farming is a business not a hobby to most.


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## DizzyDoughnut (28 March 2013)

bonny said:



			I think Susie T's point was that it is all about money not care....which I think is fair enough actually, farming is a business not a hobby to most.
		
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Well obviously money comes into it no-one is disputing that, but just because it is a business doesn't mean they don't care because i'm sure the vast majority of them do. Someone I work with had a dairy farm, now being run by her sons and with sheep but she can still years later name all the cows they had and still crys when she tells you about her favourite cow dying, obviously they sold the milk for money rather than giving it away for free but it doesn't mean they care any less. 
And do you think any sane person would willingly go, mehhh it looks a bit chilly out there think I'll just sit here in front of the fire and let my business disappear under feet of snow while i have a coffee and watch TV


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## TJP (28 March 2013)

bonny said:



			I think Susie T's point was that it is all about money not care....which I think is fair enough actually, farming is a business not a hobby to most.
		
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It's certainly not a hobby to my neighbours or friends.  It does not stop them caring, being up at all hours of the night, working hard or caring for the animals they own.  I have met grown men, some of which certain posters think should be retired by now, devastated about what is happening to their livestock.  My husband has a business, it does not stop him 'caring'.  I will sell some horses & I will intend to make a profit, does not stop me caring!  I am also a regular visitor to the IOM.  I can sit in glorious sunshine in Glen Helen when it is snowing in Ramsey.  I think people who sit in judgement of others should make sure of their facts first.


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## bonny (28 March 2013)

I said it was Susie T's point not mine ! Think I said 100's of posts ago that everybodies opinions are coloured by their own experiences, location etc. Good and bad in every walk of life.


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## Ravenwood (28 March 2013)

Just a few points on this thread that I would like to pick up on.... (but can trawl back through all the pages to quote them all!)

Cronkmooar - through my work, I am in constant contact with all the sheep farmers on IOM and I know who suffered those losses of the sheds collapsing and my heart bleeds for them - its absolutely horrific 

Someone said that farmers would get a "hardship grant or fund" - really?   I read in Farmers Weekly today that SFP is being reduced by 5% - another knock in the teeth.

Bonny said that farmers who don't even have snow are complaining - we have 700 ewes and a small herd of beef suckler cows of about 50 so 100 with followers on a hill farm on Exmoor.  We have a small scattering of a few inches of snow and we can't imagine what farmers in the hard hit areas are suffering, but its been a terrible time for lambing - we can't turn anything out, we have no grass, we make ample hay and silage but have to buy straw in as this is not an arable area.  Straw prices are astronomical due to transport costs (Exmoor followed by Dartmoor have the highest straw prices in the country).  My OH has just got back in now, all the lambs he topped up with bottled milk last night have died this morning - he is soul destroyed and wonders if it is worth carrying on.  Because there is nowhere for the ewes that have lambed to go (every conceivable inch of all shed space is filled up) he took a trailer load to market to sell as couples and got £40 a life   Some farmers were bringing their stock back home from the market as the prices were so low.

Some said that sheep farming is a choice but not for everyone, some people are born into it.  My OH can't sell this farm as its wrapped up in a trust, he can't go out to work because he has to farm it,  I go out to work full time to bring in some money to live on - we can't think of an alternative, but if you can, we are all ears 

We get all the subsidies going - SFP, HLS, Organic but still it doesn't make a profit, not a pound!  I want to diversify into holiday cottages, riding holidays etc but that needs capital and planning permission to convert buildings (funnily enough though every single building is currently crammed with ewes and lambs!) 

But it can only get better - thats what I keep telling OH   and you know what - neither he nor I would swap this life unless forced but if the bloody bank manager doesn't keep chasing then we may have to!


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## Alec Swan (28 March 2013)

SusieT said:



			Farming as a job is a choice. if you don't like it, get another one. 
Even my local farm vets think it is disgraceful-they knew there were red snow warnings. Moaning that it will cost too much money to look after your animals properly or that it's too much like hard work isn't really acceptable(bearing in mind plenty of benefits of farming lifestyle hence why people stick to it). Instead of lording farmers as a special 'breed' of people accept there are bad eggs in all jobs and the ones we constantly see paraded across tv are the ones who aren't good at their job. 
I have yet to know a farmer who cares enough about his stock to not squeeze as many into the slatted pen as possible, feed them only as much silage as they need over winter if they are useful (e.g in beef leaving the heifers/youngstock to half starve as an 'economy/practicality'). 
Many sheep farmers wouldn't call a vet because the cost is not worth it - some without a gun will just leave stock to die. The reason the farmers are upset about losing sheep is the value of the sheep, not normally because they feel attached to the animals. the reason you are all up checking your sheep is because otherwise yourisk losing a lamb which is to risk losing money. 
And that's the bitter 'practicality' of it and if animals rights (to shelter, food, water, approriate care) are written off as being over ridden when 'practicalities' are necessary or it is too much hard work or money is involved then we can stop considering ourselves a developed nation. 
*Offended? Feel I don't know the true facts? Tough. It's easy to get defensive when you know it's true*.
		
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I'm intrigued.  It would appear that you see the world through the eyes of one without fear,  or doubt,  indeed,  without any question marks.  Your assumption that those who regret the loss of a lamb,  consider only the financial aspect,  is so wide of descriptive,  as to be insulting to those who have a passion for the well being of their charges.

Explain to us,  if you will,  where your interests and your expertise lie.  Explain to us how and why you approach those animals which are in your care.  Explain to us why,  or perhaps better,  how you function.

I may well have missed your posts which have been positive,  or informative,  or proffered any other thought than that your target is wrong.

Explain to us,  if you will,  just how your apparently sour and spiteful life promotes any form of encouragement or assistance to others.  

Even those with who I,  on occasions fall out,  offer something positive.  They manage to reach beyond vitriol and spite.  I'm impressed,  you really are a specialist at criticism,  but sadly and all so often,  so wide of accurate.  I may well be wrong,  but I suspect that you live a narrow and vengeful existence.

Alec.


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## bonny (28 March 2013)

I think Ravenwood that we are all just going round in circles here....no one has said farming isn't hard work and especially hill farming has been hard hit by the weather....the snow has caught alot of people out.  I live on a semi hill farm in Scotland, if there is such a thing ! been here for 20 years and I've never known weather like this go on for so long so late in the year. I know how hard lambing is and how hard you try to save every life and I certainly wasn't saying for a minute that sheep should have been brought in as I know that's not possible in alot of cases.  It will get better though....spring will arrive !


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## bonny (28 March 2013)

Alec....Susie T is blunt but she does have a point with alot of what she says. Losing a lamb is about losing money to a farmer, why else do you think they would care ? I used to struggle a bit with that one myself, I did lambings on various farms for years and would do everything in my powers to help each one survive only for someone to eat them a few months later ! I haven't eaten lamb for years because of that dilemma....


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## Ravenwood (28 March 2013)

And as for red tape (I'm on a roll now!)  we were fined 3% of our SFP after an RPA cattle inspection because we hadn't sent back the passport of a calf that had died - Arrrgghhhh


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## TJP (28 March 2013)

bonny said:



			I said it was Susie T's point not mine ! Think I said 100's of posts ago that everybodies opinions are coloured by their own experiences, location etc. Good and bad in every walk of life.
		
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Fair enough, and I will apologise if have picked you up wrongly within this post but in the area where I live farmers tend to farm until they leave their home for the last time.  Farmers who certainly would like a profit, do not have an easy life and most of the people who think they would like to live in 'their wellies' would not last a week. I have spoken to many people in the last few days who are at their wits end.  They have massive overdrafts to buy stock, this gets paid back to the bank when this years stock are sold, but suddenly a years worth of stock is gone.  Maybe your bank will take this into account but many banks won't.  What SusieT may find unbelievable is that these guys are not thinking about the bank manager but about the lives that have been lost due to the weather. 
Last years hay/haylage stock was crap.  Looking at the growth on our fields so far this year it is only going to get worse.  We for one will not be selling any of the haylage we cut this year.  We usually let half go to the farmer when he cuts it.  I imagine I will not be the only one feeding this dominoe effect.


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## Ravenwood (28 March 2013)

bonny said:



			Alec....Susie T is blunt but she does have a point with alot of what she says. Losing a lamb is about losing money to a farmer, why else do you think they would care ? I used to struggle a bit with that one myself, I did lambings on various farms for years and would do everything in my powers to help each one survive only for someone to eat them a few months later ! I haven't eaten lamb for years because of that dilemma....
		
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I am so angered at this!  Of course it is a business but believe me most farmers (that I know) do care 100% about their stock whether they are profit making or not.  FFS last year I put a lamb (Annabelle) in a box in our Bedroom so I could get up and feed it through the night - not because it was worth £40 to me but because I wanted the poor little scrap to live - it didnt 

Have you any idea how utterly soul destroying it is to see a pile of dead lambs build up?  We don't all have dollar signs in our eyes - we do have compassion.  I care for my sheep and calves just the same way as I do for my horses and dogs.


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## TJP (29 March 2013)

bonny said:



			Alec....Susie T is blunt but she does have a point with alot of what she says. Losing a lamb is about losing money to a farmer, why else do you think they would care ? I used to struggle a bit with that one myself, I did lambings on various farms for years and would do everything in my powers to help each one survive only for someone to eat them a few months later ! I haven't eaten lamb for years because of that dilemma....
		
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Oh good heavens , you posted this while I was replying.  Seriously, if you believe this you are delusional.  I shall take back my apology if you don't mind (in fact I take it back regardless).  Obviously I had not picked you up wrongly in the first place.


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## FfionWinnie (29 March 2013)

bonny said:



			Alec....Susie T is blunt but she does have a point with alot of what she says. Losing a lamb is about losing money to a farmer, why else do you think they would care ? I used to struggle a bit with that one myself, I did lambings on various farms for years and would do everything in my powers to help each one survive only for someone to eat them a few months later ! I haven't eaten lamb for years because of that dilemma....
		
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No she has no point and has a completely ignorant view and has not read the many valid replies to all her stupid points otherwise she would have stopped her drivel by now. 

I am a shepherd so I get paid the same amount regardless of what lives or dies. That does not stop me doing everything I possibly can to make sure everything I can possibly keep living does!  

I know that my animals have the best care possible and have good lives before they go for meat.  I hate taking them to the abattoir however I do it because then I KNOW they have had a good life from start to finish. 

Are you really saying that no one in the world does their job for the love of it?  I would do mine for no pay at all, I only need the money to feed, house and clothe myself and my daughter!


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## bonny (29 March 2013)

FfionWinnie said:



			No she has no point and has a completely ignorant view and has not read the many valid replies to all her stupid points otherwise she would have stopped her drivel by now. 

I am a shepherd so I get paid the same amount regardless of what lives or dies. That does not stop me doing everything I possibly can to make sure everything I can possibly keep living does!  

I know that my animals have the best care possible and have good lives before they go for meat.  I hate taking them to the abattoir however I do it because then I KNOW they have had a good life from start to finish. 

Are you really saying that no one in the world does their job for the love of it?  I would do mine for no pay at all, I only need the money to feed, house and clothe myself and my daughter!
		
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You are doing it as a job, bit different to being a farmer and like I said when I have worked with sheep I did everything in my power to keep them alive I loved lambing time, I did nights, I liked being alone with the ewes and lambs and I hated the deaths....


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## Alec Swan (29 March 2013)

bonny said:



			A lot of farmers will give orphaned lambs away as they are not considered worth the hassle of raising.....
		
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A correction for you,  Cade lambs are more often sold than given away.  There's a reason for that,  firstly,  give away any animal and the receiver rarely appreciates the gift,  or cares for it,  and secondly,  with the pressures and the call upon one's waking hours,  the spare lambs are a drain upon one's resources,  and if others can make a success of them,  then that would save the waste of killing them.

Why kill them?  Let me explain,  it's very rare that a ewe can produce enough milk for 3 lambs.  If left with all 3,  then she will generally rear 3 second rate lambs.  Removing one will mean that her milk supply will make a better job of twins.

When a ewe which has twins,  loses one,  then one of a set of triplets is generally fostered on to her.  That's one way of dealing with the spare lamb.  When we have genuine orphans,  and it's rare,  then I will occasionally take away a single lamb,  and give a ewe a set of twins.  Twins will carry an identical scent,  and with luck that will confuse the ewe into accepting them.  

Rearing Cade lambs is a hassle,  I agree,  but a most enjoyable hassle.  They lose all fear of humans,  they will invade the house,  given the opportunity,  and it's the easiest thing to become attached to them.  Somewhere I have a pic of my now departed MIL,  lying asleep on the lawn,  with 5 lambs all lying on the windward side of her,  also sleeping!!

Being a shepherd is a passion,  for most.  There are easier ways of making a living,  and for some,  being a dole-waller would be more profitable,  but it's the passion which keeps most going,  even those who need to earn a living! 

Alec.


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## bonny (29 March 2013)

Ravenwood said:



			I am so angered at this!  Of course it is a business but believe me most farmers (that I know) do care 100% about their stock whether they are profit making or not.  FFS last year I put a lamb (Annabelle) in a box in our Bedroom so I could get up and feed it through the night - not because it was worth £40 to me but because I wanted the poor little scrap to live - it didnt 

Have you any idea how utterly soul destroying it is to see a pile of dead lambs build up?  We don't all have dollar signs in our eyes - we do have compassion.  I care for my sheep and calves just the same way as I do for my horses and dogs.
		
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Like I keep saying there are good, caring farmers and one's or aren't. I worked at lambing time a few years ago on a farm where orphaned lambs were thrown in an empty barrel and left. I used to come on at nights and try to save them. We all have different experiences.


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## Alec Swan (29 March 2013)

bonny said:



			Alec....Susie T is blunt .......
		
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Ignorant would have been more descriptive.

Alec.


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## bonny (29 March 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			A correction for you,  Cade lambs are more often sold than given away.  There's a reason for that,  firstly,  give away any animal and the receiver rarely appreciates the gift,  or cares for it,  and secondly,  with the pressures and the call upon one's waking hours,  the spare lambs are a drain upon one's resources,  and if others can make a success of them,  then that would save the waste of killing them.

Why kill them?  Let me explain,  it's very rare that a ewe can produce enough milk for 3 lambs.  If left with all 3,  then she will generally rear 3 second rate lambs.  Removing one will mean that her milk supply will make a better job of twins.

When a ewe which has twins,  loses one,  then one of a set of triplets is generally fostered on to her.  That's one way of dealing with the spare lamb.  When we have genuine orphans,  and it's rare,  then I will occasionally take away a single lamb,  and give a ewe a set of twins.  Twins will carry an identical scent,  and with luck that will confuse the ewe into accepting them.  

Rearing Cade lambs is a hassle,  I agree,  but a most enjoyable hassle.  They lose all fear of humans,  they will invade the house,  given the opportunity,  and it's the easiest thing to become attached to them.  Somewhere I have a pic of my now departed MIL,  lying asleep on the lawn,  with 5 lambs all lying on the windward side of her,  also sleeping!!

Being a shepherd is a passion,  for most.  There are easier ways of making a living,  and for some,  being a dole-waller would be more profitable,  but it's the passion which keeps most going,  even those who need to earn a living! 

Alec.
		
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Alec,don't presume that I don't understand sheep farming.....


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## Alec Swan (29 March 2013)

bonny said:



			........ We all have different experiences.
		
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In my experience,  which I suspect goes beyond yours,  your tales are unique! 

Alec.


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## TJP (29 March 2013)

FfionWinnie said:



			No she has no point and has a completely ignorant view and has not read the many valid replies to all her stupid points otherwise she would have stopped her drivel by now. 

I am a shepherd so I get paid the same amount regardless of what lives or dies. That does not stop me doing everything I possibly can to make sure everything I can possibly keep living does!  

I know that my animals have the best care possible and have good lives before they go for meat.  I hate taking them to the abattoir however I do it because then I KNOW they have had a good life from start to finish. 

Are you really saying that no one in the world does their job for the love of it?  I would do mine for no pay at all, I only need the money to feed, house and clothe myself and my daughter!
		
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I totally agree.  However I don't think the folk, who hide behind their computer screens, with their 'holier than thou' attitudes will ever change therefore I am bailing out of this thread (for the 2nd time).  I have a freezer full of pork, all home reared and I can even tell you their favorite treat was chocolate cake whilst they were living.  They had a great wee life.  They lived outside in a paddock, had a snug wee house, feed on tap, loads of straw to make beds and were checked several times a day, as will the next batch. 
I think it's time to ignore the ignorant who fall for the media perception or their own, very limited, experoences..


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## Alec Swan (29 March 2013)

bonny said:



			Alec,don't presume that I don't understand sheep farming.....
		
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Your thoughts and offerings would lead anyone with any degree of experience to believe that you have done a great deal more reading than you have work,  or thought for that matter! 

Alec.


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## TJP (29 March 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			Your thoughts and offerings would lead anyone with any degree of experience to believe that you have done a great deal more reading than you have work,  or thought for that matter! 

Alec.
		
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Alec, me thinks the old 'head/brick wall' adage applies here


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## bonny (29 March 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			Your thoughts and offerings would lead anyone with any degree of experience to believe that you have done a great deal more reading than you have work,  or thought for that matter! 

Alec.
		
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Why ?


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## Alec Swan (29 March 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			Your thoughts and offerings would lead anyone with any degree of experience to believe that you have done a great deal more reading than you have work,  or thought for that matter! 

Alec.
		
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bonny said:



			Why ?
		
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Because your offerings are so unbelievable as to be inventions,  or fantasies,  perhaps.

In short,  I don't believe what you say.  I believe that your claims to experience are fabricated.  

Alec.


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## FfionWinnie (29 March 2013)

bonny said:



			You are doing it as a job, bit different to being a farmer and like I said when I have worked with sheep I did everything in my power to keep them alive I loved lambing time, I did nights, I liked being alone with the ewes and lambs and I hated the deaths....
		
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How on earth is it a bit different??  I have my own stock too so I am technically both. I treat both the same and the welfare of the stock is my utmost concern at all times, to the detriment of my own health and welfare at times.

And night lambing is a piece of cake so don't try and lecture me about you knowing what you are talking about. I'm at the sharp end.


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## bonny (29 March 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			Because your offerings are so unbelievable as to be inventions,  or fantasies,  perhaps.

In short,  I don't believe what you say.  I believe that your claims to experience are fabricated.  

Alec.
		
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That's just plain weird and frankly insulting....what have I said that you don't believe ?


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## Ravenwood (29 March 2013)

TJP said:



			I totally agree.  However I don't think the folk, who hide behind their computer screens, with their 'holier than thou' attitudes will ever change therefore I am bailing out of this thread (for the 2nd time).  I have a freezer full of pork, all home reared and I can even tell you their favorite treat was chocolate cake whilst they were living.  They had a great wee life.  They lived outside in a paddock, had a snug wee house, feed on tap, loads of straw to make beds and were checked several times a day, as will the next batch. 
I think it's time to ignore the ignorant who fall for the media perception or their own, very limited, experoences..
		
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With you there TJP - I have a lamb in the freezer that wasn't fit for market and half an outdoor reared, pedigree, champion show stock Tamworth pig as well (with slabs of bacon like gammon) - just need to buy vegetables  and no way on earth would you get that sort of quality meat from Tescoes!


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## Alec Swan (29 March 2013)

bonny said:



			....what have I said that you don't believe ?
		
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The bulk of your claims to experience.  If you have actually worked,  as you claim to have done,  it's only a shame that you seemed to learn so little,  en route.

Alec.


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## Ravenwood (29 March 2013)

Tame lambs - we lambed about 70 ewes early and found it really hard to find some - they were getting incredible prices at market.  Most farmers are happy to keep tame lambs and pass them onto other farmers.  They are labour intensive but profitable too, so for those of you saying farming is just money but on the other hand saying tame lames are dumped - it doesn't add up.


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## TJP (29 March 2013)

Ravenwood. The pork/gammon etc we have is fab but I doubt the folk who are complaining about the farmers would pay enough for me to make a profit.


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## Ravenwood (29 March 2013)

TJP said:



			Ravenwood. The pork/gammon etc we have is fab but I doubt the folk who are complaining about the farmers would pay enough for me to make a profit.
		
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Pig farming is absolutely dire - even worse than sheep and its awful for them.  What with the EU directive of farrowing pens, all the EU countries that have signed up to it are shooting their sows and therefore there is no export market for our pigs here.  Pigs are selling for less at market than what you would normally pay for weanlings - I know my friends have ended up bidding on their own pigs to take them home (luckily the auctioneer could see what was happening) coupled with the extortionate price of food at £230/tonne it really is dire for them.  Bascially farming of all livestock is in crisis


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## gadetra (29 March 2013)

SusieT said:



			Farming as a job is a choice. if you don't like it, get another one. 
Even my local farm vets think it is disgraceful-they knew there were red snow warnings. Moaning that it will cost too much money to look after your animals properly or that it's too much like hard work isn't really acceptable(bearing in mind plenty of benefits of farming lifestyle hence why people stick to it). Instead of lording farmers as a special 'breed' of people accept there are bad eggs in all jobs and the ones we constantly see paraded across tv are the ones who aren't good at their job. 
I have yet to know a farmer who cares enough about his stock to not squeeze as many into the slatted pen as possible, feed them only as much silage as they need over winter if they are useful (e.g in beef leaving the heifers/youngstock to half starve as an 'economy/practicality'). 
Many sheep farmers wouldn't call a vet because the cost is not worth it - some without a gun will just leave stock to die. The reason the farmers are upset about losing sheep is the value of the sheep, not normally because they feel attached to the animals. the reason you are all up checking your sheep is because otherwise yourisk losing a lamb which is to risk losing money. 
And that's the bitter 'practicality' of it and if animals rights (to shelter, food, water, approriate care) are written off as being over ridden when 'practicalities' are necessary or it is too much hard work or money is involved then we can stop considering ourselves a developed nation. 
Offended? Feel I don't know the true facts? Tough. It's easy to get defensive when you know it's true.
		
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Are you actually serious? 

Down on planet earth, in the real world, we have 5 bullocks to a pen in the slatted shed, on rubber covered slats, and four each in the dry shed pens. Silage is tipped into them 4 times a day. Uneaten silage is bagged and given to the horses. The silage we have is crap as it was taken up the the non summer that was summer 2012, so meal is given on top of this. As well as copper in drinkers, and mineral licks. They have room to lie down and puck eachother. cattle don't thrive without this, and lyin areas are important.
Farmers don't care? If only I had the video of me and my Dad cleaning drinkers from last weekend. Every bullock in the pens came up to us for a lick and chew, and the old puck (although I'm trying to get my dad to stop teaching them to that. Being in a field of cattle and having them all come up for a puck against your fist is confusing for those not used to them as the Teagasc inspectors can tell you! Also my father is not getting any younger, and they'll knock him over some day. He of course thinks this is hilarious, and every year (we buy weanlings and sell them as finishers) takes on a few "To leyad from be de lug" (Lead from the ear). These are mart cattle, not haltered reared purebreds. Obviously a cruel and uncaring profit chasing farmer.) -our overalls were sloppy with lick! So they were obviously terrorised victims of animal cruelty afraid to approach their abusers.
Starving a heifer or weanling is utter *****. As anyone with any dealings with livestock will know (including equidae) starving a growing youngster stunts growth and ultimately profitability. I have never seen this happen and I have been around cattle and farming all my life. 

As for the profit hungry, just get another job and quit whinging version of imaginary farming you seem to have developed in your head, our farm has been unprofitable all my life. It made it's first profit last year (beef prises rose hugely last year) in 29 years to the tune of 511. Only the high life for us. This farm is on bad land. the area we live on has reared the last 5 gens of my fathers family, that we know of. (A lot of Irish records were ost in the fires of the war of independance). In Ireland, a field changes hands (outside a family) on average every 555 years. To put that in context, in france it is every 70 years, or once a generation. Farming for us is not a job you get into, it is in your blood, your soul.  On our farm, rocks are bursting the soil, and we can't afford to re-seed reedy meadows. EU regs mean we have to spread slurry on the same fields every year, causing a lack of aeration in the soil and compaction and demineralising of the soil. We also have 5 famine houses, a famine road, a mass path. two fairy forts, and a full fiachra (stone age dwellling and ancient eating place). Most of the land around us is planted. 
Would you slog it out on our farm? I know thw answer to that. 

I will farm when my father can't farm anymore. It's not a conscious choice. Of I don't the land will turn to scrub or forestry. I know the story of every hill, bump, ditch, hedge and stream. I know what lives in this hedge, in this bush and that ditch. I know about a millionth as much as my father does. Would you stand people who have never stood on your land before coming in to tell you how to run it, whe to do this and that? Inspite of having to cut hedges and put birds out of a home. And turn meadows into quagmires because some pen pusher in Brussles decided you had to? 

You know so so so very little of what farming entails. No I don't cosset and spend hours brushing and rugging and spoiling my animals. They are just that and I respect them as such. They want for NOTHING, and a stick is never raised on our farm in anger against an animal (to quote my father "Never raise a schtick to a beascht".). 

You have absolutely no idea of the blood, sweat, and occasionally tears onvolved in farming. It is not a series of business transactions. It is something much, much more than that. You have absolutely no appreciation or knowledge of the reality of this. 

Sorry this is long, and ranty and incoherent. I hope it makes some sort of sense. I just cannot believe the sheer blinding ignorance what I read there.


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## gadetra (29 March 2013)

TJP said:



			Ravenwood. The pork/gammon etc we have is fab but I doubt the folk who are complaining about the farmers would pay enough for me to make a profit.
		
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This is very very true.


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## martlin (29 March 2013)

TJP said:



			Ravenwood. The pork/gammon etc we have is fab but I doubt the folk who are complaining about the farmers would pay enough for me to make a profit.
		
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We don't farm pigs as such, but I had a little experiment, I wanted some nice pork for the freezer, so we bought some old spot and some saddleback weaners, we bought them cheap, friends have an old fashioned grocer's shop, so we had constant supply of veg and fruit to feed our half a dozen pigs alongside their pellets; we gave them a paddock to turn over and built them a little house.
I looked after them, fed them, watered them and then I took them to the abattoir 15 miles away, I picked them up butchered and boxed and I delivered them door to door to people who ordered the meat from us. I made £5 per pig of profit  
I suppose we are quite lucky that we farm sheep and some cattle, there is a bit more than £5 in it, but not much.


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## BWa (29 March 2013)

I tried to leave but this thread just keeps sucking me back in!



bonny said:



			Alec,don't presume that I don't understand sheep farming.....
		
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bonny said:



			Ok, I am completely clueless.....never seen an old farmer in my life !!
		
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Just found this on the BBC website:
58% of UK farms in hands of over-55s
And 3% held by under-35s, EU figures show 
Average age of UK farm holders is 58
2004 research suggested 7% of farmers wished to retire but expected to be unable to do so
Half cited financial reasons and a third said they enjoyed the life
Of over-65s not planning to retire, most said it was because they did not want to



bonny said:



			I did lambings on various farms for years and would do everything in my powers to help each one survive only for someone to eat them a few months later ! I haven't eaten lamb for years because of that dilemma....
		
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That, for me, is the difference between people who understand livestock farming and those who don't.
The majority of animals bred on farms are bred to be raised for meat. If we didn't eat them then they wouldn't be bred in the first place!
We wouldn't just breed lambs, pigs, beef calves, so we could watch them skip round fields for the rest of their lives, there simply isn't the space.

We have just had out first lambs born this morning. They are cute and doing well but ultimately they will become roast lamb or something similar, that is their purpose. I am proud of the fact that we are breeding good stock to the highest welfare standards to become quality meat for someone.


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## jrp204 (29 March 2013)

We had 3 sows who had 27 piglets between them last summer, we reared the piglets and sold them as fatteners for £120 each, profit? Nice idea! You have to buy in all the feed and the price of feed has gone through the roof. We sold our sows in feb. Our 3000 free range hens went in January and won't  be replaced. Feed is £320/t, 3 t/wk so that's £960 week in feed. We worked out that if we had kept the hens till the end of April when they should have gone we would have lost 2k and not have paid ourselves. So, now we are down to our pedigree sheep, a bit of barley for malting and maize for a neighbour. we both work off the farm too. Maybe next year we will make a profit and possibly get a holiday but I won't hold my breathe. 
I agree it is our choice, but it doesn't make it easy.


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## justabob (29 March 2013)

bonny said:



			A lot of farmers will give orphaned lambs away as they are not considered worth the hassle of raising.....
		
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They dont give them away here, orphaned lambs are put onto ewes that have lost their lambs, making the ewe productive and preventing mastitis. If the orphaned lambs are too old to do this, they are bottle fed and put onto pellets as soon as they are old enough to eat them.


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## EPRider (29 March 2013)

Lambing is so disastrous round here from the Smallenburg virus that there are no orphan lambs to be had.  Approx a third of all lambs are lost to this.


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## Bertieb123 (29 March 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			I'm intrigued.  It would appear that you see the world through the eyes of one without fear,  or doubt,  indeed,  without any question marks.  Your assumption that those who regret the loss of a lamb,  consider only the financial aspect,  is so wide of descriptive,  as to be insulting to those who have a passion for the well being of their charges.

Explain to us,  if you will,  where your interests and your expertise lie.  Explain to us how and why you approach those animals which are in your care.  Explain to us why,  or perhaps better,  how you function.

I may well have missed your posts which have been positive,  or informative,  or proffered any other thought than that your target is wrong.

Explain to us,  if you will,  just how your apparently sour and spiteful life promotes any form of encouragement or assistance to others.  

Even those with who I,  on occasions fall out,  offer something positive.  They manage to reach beyond vitriol and spite.  I'm impressed,  you really are a specialist at criticism,  but sadly and all so often,  so wide of accurate.  I may well be wrong,  but I suspect that you live a narrow and vengeful existence.

Alec.
		
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OH HOW I AGREE ALEC!


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## cptrayes (29 March 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			I'm intrigued.  It would appear that you see the world through the eyes of one without fear,  or doubt,  indeed,  without any question marks.  Your assumption that those who regret the loss of a lamb,  consider only the financial aspect,  is so wide of descriptive,  as to be insulting to those who have a passion for the well being of their charges.

Explain to us,  if you will,  where your interests and your expertise lie.  Explain to us how and why you approach those animals which are in your care.  Explain to us why,  or perhaps better,  how you function.

I may well have missed your posts which have been positive,  or informative,  or proffered any other thought than that your target is wrong.

Explain to us,  if you will,  just how your apparently sour and spiteful life promotes any form of encouragement or assistance to others.  

Even those with who I,  on occasions fall out,  offer something positive.  They manage to reach beyond vitriol and spite.  I'm impressed,  you really are a specialist at criticism,  but sadly and all so often,  so wide of accurate.  I may well be wrong,  but I suspect that you live a narrow and vengeful existence.

Alec.
		
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Is there really any valid excuse for this kind of diatribe against another forum member expressing an opinion?


I dislike a lot of what Susiet says, and the way that she says it, on all sorts of threads.

But this is no way for a civilised person to respond .


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## cptrayes (29 March 2013)

I will respect the love that dairy farmers have for their cows when they stop removing their calves at two weeks old and stop shooting the male ones.

Yes, I KNOW that's how we produce milk that people can afford to drink, but how people can say that they love their animals and at the same time close their eyes to what is being done to them, I do not know. If the public understood how milk was produced, many of them would refuse to buy it, and children would refuse to drink it.

Likewise, sheep with footrot limping in fields is a fact of sheep farming life. It is totally  uneconomic to stop it happening completely. Yet if a horse owner left a horse limping like a sheep with foot rot, they would be prosecuted. How is it any different from a welfare point of view?

This is not an attack on farmers, only a comment about those farmers who refuse to accept that less than desireable things happen to their animals in the name of production of meat and milk that is affordable for people to buy in quantity instead of as a luxury.


I'm at a complete loss to understand why people on here breeding tiny numbers of animals actually expect to make a profit out of it. No other business would succeed with such minimal volumes of product to sell.


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## YorksG (29 March 2013)

What would you like to happen to the bull calves? Provided they are shot cleanly, what exactly is the problem with this?


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## Maesfen (29 March 2013)

Apologies if this has already been posted but perhaps food for thought for those that doubt?

Weekly e-newsletter
28th March 2013


Backing our farmers

Sheep farmers generally, and hill farmers in particular, were having a hard time of it even before the dreadful weather of the last few weeks.

Last summer's wet weather increased feed prices and lowered quality and then a sudden increase in imports of New Zealand lamb coincided with much reduced demand for lamb in traditional European markets which have been hit hard by the Euro-zone financial crisis.

In the first quarter of the year farm-gate prices for whole lambs dropped by 25% and legs of lamb by 17% which means farmers are losing £29 for every lamb they sell. While some retailers have said they will increase the prices they are paying, the price for lamb in the supermarkets has fallen only by 2%.

Now many farmers across the whole country have lost ewes and lambs to the unseasonal snow. Thousands of sheep are reported dead in snow drifts and some farmers who are operating outdoor lambing systems are reporting high lamb mortality owing to the freezing temperatures.

All this comes against a background of a long term decline in the number of hill farmers who are of an ever increasing average age as fewer and fewer people pursue a career in this most rugged and financially unrewarding sector.

This is a good moment to reflect on the importance of livestock farming in the uplands not just because of the food hill farmers put on our plates but also because they are the glue that holds the society and environment of many of the most loved parts of our countryside together.

Without sheep, and the farmers who look after them, the much-loved fells of Cumbria, peaks of Derbyshire, mountains of Wales and a hundred other landscapes would look entirely different.

Without farmers the villages and market towns of those rural areas would have had no purpose and without them some of the proudest communities in the country would simply not exist.

The Royal Agricultural Benevolent Fund (RABI), The Prince's Countryside Fund, the Farm Crisis Network and many other charities are all doing vital work assisting farmers and the welfare of their stock. We should all do what we can to support them.

Barney White-Spunner
Executive Chairman


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## jrp204 (29 March 2013)

If more people ate veal it would provide an outlet for many bull calves. I bet there isn't a dairy farmer who wants to shoot a calf, it goes totally against the grain.


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## silu (29 March 2013)

Well I haven't posted on this topic for a while as I've been doing something a little more practical in trying to help as best I can.NOT sitting at a computer slagging farmers off. Been along the road helping our neighbouring farmer ALL NIGHT.
As the weather had improved a little yesterday he'd put the oldest lambs out. About 6 pm the weather changed dramatically with heavy snow falling so we had to get all the ewes and lambs back under cover again. 
I too don't believe even 1/2 of what some on here have written about so called experience...load of ****.
After something to eat I am going to drive about an 8 hour round trip with a horsebox to get it filled with fodder as there is nothing available locally.
To all of you who profess to care so much and think farmers don't, get of your high horses and DO something to help.


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## justabob (29 March 2013)

YorksG said:



			What would you like to happen to the bull calves? Provided they are shot cleanly, what exactly is the problem with this?
		
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Sadly there is no other option for bull calves born to Dairy cows and Dairy bulls as it is not cost effective to run them on for beef. The alternative is to run a beef bred bull with cows resulting in a calf that can be fattened for meat. Understandably farmers will want replacement heiffers for the milk herd so unfortunately there is always going to be wastage of bull calves.


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## RunToEarth (29 March 2013)

cptrayes said:



			I will respect the love that dairy farmers have for their cows when they stop removing their calves at two weeks old and stop shooting the male ones.

Yes, I KNOW that's how we produce milk that people can afford to drink, but how people can say that they love their animals and at the same time close their eyes to what is being done to them, I do not know. If the public understood how milk was produced, many of them would refuse to buy it, and children would refuse to drink it.

Likewise, sheep with footrot limping in fields is a fact of sheep farming life. It is totally  uneconomic to stop it happening completely. Yet if a horse owner left a horse limping like a sheep with foot rot, they would be prosecuted. How is it any different from a welfare point of view?

This is not an attack on farmers, only a comment about those farmers who refuse to accept that less than desireable things happen to their animals in the name of production of meat and milk that is affordable for people to buy in quantity instead of as a luxury.


I'm at a complete loss to understand why people on here breeding tiny numbers of animals actually expect to make a profit out of it. No other business would succeed with such minimal volumes of product to sell.
		
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I'm saddened to read this, I didn't realise such a large proportion of the population had such little respect for the industry, perhaps through lack of understanding it, possibly through ignorance. 

What exactly would you propose we do will our bull calves? 

there are a whole bunch of reasons farmers continue farming, I dont think large profit margins have factored high on the list for many years. Ive watched my family go through every emotion possible for our herd in the few years I've been alive, to read that stockmen have no love for their animals is offensive to say the least. 

I'm with Alec regarding Suzie's comments, I find her opinions so incredibly ill informed I couldn't muster a response.


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## Bertieb123 (29 March 2013)

silu said:



			Well I haven't posted on this topic for a while as I've been doing something a little more practical in trying to help as best I can.NOT sitting at a computer slagging farmers off. Been along the road helping our neighbouring farmer ALL NIGHT.
As the weather had improved a little yesterday he'd put the oldest lambs out. About 6 pm the weather changed dramatically with heavy snow falling so we had to get all the ewes and lambs back under cover again. 
I too don't believe even 1/2 of what some on here have written about so called experience...load of ****.
After something to eat I am going to drive about an 8 hour round trip with a horsebox to get it filled with fodder as there is nothing available locally.
To all of you who profess to care so much and think farmers don't, get of your high horses and DO something to help.
		
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Thank god for people like you! SOME of us are on the same wavelength here, some of us pull together and that is the way it should be, But I am afraid some people these day's just want to point out all the bad and wrong things they see from a distance and not get involved except to write many inaccuracies and total rubbish from afar. Hope things get better for all of you soon this is not an ideal time at all, keep up the good work, and keep your head held high


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## FfionWinnie (29 March 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Likewise, sheep with footrot limping in fields is a fact of sheep farming life. It is totally  uneconomic to stop it happening completely. Yet if a horse owner left a horse limping like a sheep with foot rot, they would be prosecuted. How is it any different from a welfare point of view?
		
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Well that's not true actually, having foot rot is uneconomical as is having to treat it, the best situation is to cull it out of the flock so the remainder are the ones which are resistant to it. 

Sheep can go dramatically lame with scald which is a fairly minor irritation between the cleats usually and even if you treat them the first sign of symptoms, they won't be cured over night. And then another one will limp. That can give the impression the sheep are always lame however you don't know what the farmer has done meanwhile to effect a cure. 

Some breeds are more prone to foot problems than others as well. I don't know when I last touched a foot in my flock (although I do cull for it). Usually get scald in some of the lambs in the summer and foot bath them which cures them within a week. 

Lame sheep aren't necessarily a welfare problem, same as lame horses aren't necessarily a welfare problem, if the situation is in hand (vet/farmer/farrier). 

I don't know any dairy farmers who shoot bull calves these days. And any who have had to do it in the past through financial pressures, did not like doing it. 

A lot of people bull their cows with a beef animal and all the calves can go as meat or breeding cows, and the best of the herd are bulled with sexed semen to breed replacement heifers, meaning no dairy bull calves are born (obviously sexed semen is not 100% guaranteed so the odd one may be).


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## Alec Swan (29 March 2013)

cptrayes said:



			I will respect the love that dairy farmers have for their cows when they stop removing their calves at two weeks old and stop shooting the male ones.

*I accept that it's a heartless act to slaughter dairy bull calves,  and both the knackerman and the producer hate it.  Not just for financial reasons,  but because it's a shameful waste of life.  There are those who run Friesian calves around,  but there's a huge input to get them to be fit for slaughter,  and most only do it because incineration is obscene.  I've held and shot dozens of Guernsey calves.  Beautiful calves which have nothing wrong with them,  except that there is no trade in this country for veal,  and the fuss made by the welfare lot is such that exporting them to the Continent isn't worth the grief.  

Those who are opposed to live export seem unable to accept the fact that they can't have it both-ways.

The other point is that with most milk producers being paid at virtually cost price,  by the buyers,  because cheaper alternatives are available on the Continent,  so every week ever more dairy farmers are going out of business,  never to re-start.*

....... If the public understood how milk was produced, many of them would refuse to buy it, and children would refuse to drink it.

*That I doubt,  but if it happened,  presumably you'd be happy to see the end of the milk by-products,  would you?  No cheese,  no cream and no yoghurt,  apart from what we import.  If you are unhappy with our animal welfare standards,  I can assure you that many of those who queue up to supply us have a care ethos which would turn your stomach. *

Likewise, sheep with footrot limping in fields is a fact of sheep farming life. It is totally  uneconomic to stop it happening completely. Yet if a horse owner left a horse limping like a sheep with foot rot, they would be prosecuted. How is it any different from a welfare point of view?

*Since I stopped the "Routine" trimming of sheep's feet,  the incidents of footrot have declined drastically.  I run round 300 lambs every year,  and from having incidents of rotten feet,  in 20-30% of the flock,  I now have 2-3 feet to deal with,  per year.  Eradication is,  as you say,  near impossible,  but by only dealing with the affected,  so the incidents decline.  It's actually a case of less being more,  and no,  I can't explain it!*

I'm at a complete loss to understand why people on here breeding tiny numbers of animals actually expect to make a profit out of it. No other business would succeed with such minimal volumes of product to sell.

*They do it for the love of it.  I understand that from a fiscal consideration it makes little sense,  but it's the pride that they take in their animals,  the time that they take to show them to the interested,  the pleasure that's to be gained,  as you will surely understand,  when you watch a foal grow or develop.*

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Alec.


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## CorvusCorax (29 March 2013)

gadetra said:



			Are you actually serious? 

Down on planet earth, in the real world, we have 5 bullocks to a pen in the slatted shed, on rubber covered slats, and four each in the dry shed pens. Silage is tipped into them 4 times a day. Uneaten silage is bagged and given to the horses. The silage we have is crap as it was taken up the the non summer that was summer 2012, so meal is given on top of this. As well as copper in drinkers, and mineral licks. They have room to lie down and puck eachother. cattle don't thrive without this, and lyin areas are important.
Farmers don't care? If only I had the video of me and my Dad cleaning drinkers from last weekend. Every bullock in the pens came up to us for a lick and chew, and the old puck (although I'm trying to get my dad to stop teaching them to that. Being in a field of cattle and having them all come up for a puck against your fist is confusing for those not used to them as the Teagasc inspectors can tell you! Also my father is not getting any younger, and they'll knock him over some day. He of course thinks this is hilarious, and every year (we buy weanlings and sell them as finishers) takes on a few "To leyad from be de lug" (Lead from the ear). These are mart cattle, not haltered reared purebreds. Obviously a cruel and uncaring profit chasing farmer.) -our overalls were sloppy with lick! So they were obviously terrorised victims of animal cruelty afraid to approach their abusers.
Starving a heifer or weanling is utter *****. As anyone with any dealings with livestock will know (including equidae) starving a growing youngster stunts growth and ultimately profitability. I have never seen this happen and I have been around cattle and farming all my life. 

As for the profit hungry, just get another job and quit whinging version of imaginary farming you seem to have developed in your head, our farm has been unprofitable all my life. It made it's first profit last year (beef prises rose hugely last year) in 29 years to the tune of &#8364;511. Only the high life for us. This farm is on bad land. the area we live on has reared the last 5 gens of my fathers family, that we know of. (A lot of Irish records were ost in the fires of the war of independance). In Ireland, a field changes hands (outside a family) on average every 555 years. To put that in context, in france it is every 70 years, or once a generation. Farming for us is not a job you get into, it is in your blood, your soul.  On our farm, rocks are bursting the soil, and we can't afford to re-seed reedy meadows. EU regs mean we have to spread slurry on the same fields every year, causing a lack of aeration in the soil and compaction and demineralising of the soil. We also have 5 famine houses, a famine road, a mass path. two fairy forts, and a full fiachra (stone age dwellling and ancient eating place). Most of the land around us is planted. 
Would you slog it out on our farm? I know thw answer to that. 

I will farm when my father can't farm anymore. It's not a conscious choice. Of I don't the land will turn to scrub or forestry. I know the story of every hill, bump, ditch, hedge and stream. I know what lives in this hedge, in this bush and that ditch. I know about a millionth as much as my father does. Would you stand people who have never stood on your land before coming in to tell you how to run it, whe to do this and that? Inspite of having to cut hedges and put birds out of a home. And turn meadows into quagmires because some pen pusher in Brussles decided you had to? 

You know so so so very little of what farming entails. No I don't cosset and spend hours brushing and rugging and spoiling my animals. They are just that and I respect them as such. They want for NOTHING, and a stick is never raised on our farm in anger against an animal (to quote my father "Never raise a schtick to a beascht".). 

You have absolutely no idea of the blood, sweat, and occasionally tears onvolved in farming. It is not a series of business transactions. It is something much, much more than that. You have absolutely no appreciation or knowledge of the reality of this. 

Sorry this is long, and ranty and incoherent. I hope it makes some sort of sense. I just cannot believe the sheer blinding ignorance what I read there.
		
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Brilliant, brilliant post from another person actually at the coal face rather than boking out 'facts' they read on the internet, see on the telly or hear second or third hand.

The land on which we live (we are planters though ) sounds very similar. High, marshy, reedy, rocky, and what isn't covered in rubbish grass is covered in alien evergreens, many of which are currently diseased, the ground beneath is essentially dead.
Even the 'potatoes' which bear the brand name of this picturesque area are grown elsewhere, driven in, bagged here and sent away again - there is no way you could grow spuds here.
It's hardly lush green meadows where the farmers stroll around, periodically counting wads of cash which they produce from each welly boot, and cackling at their healthy profits.

Speaking of cows, I spent quite a while hearing about the popularity of cow mattresses and cow pillows yesterday, made sustainably from recycled tyres.


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## amandap (29 March 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			Since I stopped the "Routine" trimming of sheep's feet, the incidents of footrot have declined drastically. I run round 300 lambs every year, and from having incidents of rotten feet, in 20-30% of the flock, I now have 2-3 feet to deal with, per year. Eradication is, as you say, near impossible, but by only dealing with the affected, so the incidents decline. It's actually a case of less being more, and no, I can't explain it!

Alec.
		
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This is extremely interesting.

I am wishing the weather turns soon but it doesn't bode well I'm afraid.


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## cptrayes (29 March 2013)

To the many people who have wilfully misread my last post, I will repeat. My issue is not with any of the practices which are common to good farmers. My issue is with those farmers who refuse to acknowledge that farm animals, compared with other domesticated animals, are kept in a way that would be considered a welfare issue if it were not farming.

What would the equine world say if foals were routinely taken off their mothers at two weeks old so that the mares could go out and compete, for example?

I know the two do not compare, but to deny that there are any animal welfare issues among even well cared for farm animals is patently two faced. There are. They are tolerated so that the public can eat cheap meat and drink cheap milk.  I eat meat and drink milk.  I don't like the way milk is made, with cows now bred  with udders so huge that they drag on the ground, if they are ever allowed out. I would prefer a more humane source as my daily osteoporosis preventative, but can anyone tell me where I can buy skimmed milk from a cow still nursing its calf, please?  

Regarding the price of milk, can anyone explain to me what happened to the Milk Marketing Board? My impression is that pricing was controlled by the MMB as a monopoly supplier who had the whip hand over the supermarkets. Who gave up that monopoly - was it bigger greedy dairy farmers who wanted to negotiate their own price direct? If so, does the industry have no-one to blame but themselves for the situation they now find themselves in? 

I do know about the vicious practices that the supermarkets operate. A friend of mine had organic lambs turned away with less than 24 hours notice by a big one, and had to take a loss selling them as non-organic. It's not right, but only acting in concert instead of competitively will counter the strength of the supermarkets. Meanwhile, I refuse to buy any pork that is not bred in Britain, because our welfare standards have been adoopted earlier than other EU countries and our farmers are at a disadvantage because of it. 

The balance between animal welfare and cost is one that should, in a civilised society, be able to be discussed without resort to some of the abuse that's flying around on this thread.


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## amandap (29 March 2013)

cptrayes said:



			The balance between animal welfare and cost is one that should, in a civilised society, be able to be discussed without resort to some of the abuse that's flying around on this thread.
		
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I do agree but this is a very challenging and emotional time for many farmers and isn't perhaps the best timing to broaden the discussion.


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## gadetra (29 March 2013)

CaveCanem said:



			Brilliant, brilliant post from another person actually at the coal face rather than boking out 'facts' they read on the internet, see on the telly or hear second or third hand.

The land on which we live (we are planters though ) sounds very similar. High, marshy, reedy, rocky, and what isn't covered in rubbish grass is covered in alien evergreens, many of which are currently diseased, the ground beneath is essentially dead.
Even the 'potatoes' which bear the brand name of this picturesque area are grown elsewhere, driven in, bagged here and sent away again - there is no way you could grow spuds here.
It's hardly lush green meadows where the farmers stroll around, periodically counting wads of cash which they produce from each welly boot, and cackling at their healthy profits.

Speaking of cows, I spent quite a while hearing about the popularity of cow mattresses and cow pillows yesterday, made sustainably from recycled tyres.
		
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Ah the old marketing. As long as it has a hale and hearty pic on the bag no one cares about where they actually come from it,s hilarious!

There was actually an excellent documentary on RTE a while back called The Homeplace about farming now, growing up to farm and the idea of the homeplace and what it means. You might get it on RTE player.
Some sobering facts too. 78% of farms in Ireland have a working income ov £4,000 or less per year. The top 2% make £40,000 (euro, I can't find the euro sign) or more per year. Form an orderly queue now people before you jump into our wellies now!
The rubber is a great job. They're much happier on it, we have it down a good few years. Neighbours are taking the plunge on that one too!


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## cptrayes (29 March 2013)

I'm sorry for people who have farming in the blood and farmland in the family heritage going back centuries, but it is perfectly clear from many of the posts on this thread that small farms are simply not economically viable. As with many, many industries, (coal mining being a good example where son followed father down the pit), life has moved on. Like all industries over time, cost effectiveness can only be achieved by amalgamation to make bigger production units. It's a crying shame for those who want to continue that way of life, but making a decent living from a small farm is currently simply not possible and probably won't be in the foreseeable future.  

There is no point in quoting statistics saying that the average hill sheep farmer earns 8k a year, for example (which it was the last time I read about it).  There are only two answers. Live on that and whatever benefits you can claim, or give it up.  To use low incomes as a reason for failing to be able to care properly for animals, as some on this thread have, just does not make sense. It's like someone on benefits saying they can't afford the vets fees to treat an unexpectedly  sick dog. Our answer would always be "then don't keep a dog". 

I think it's a shame that small farms must disappear, because I suspect that some of the highest welfare standards are actually on the tiniest farms, where each animal is known as an individual.


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## Alec Swan (29 March 2013)

cptrayes said:



			.......

I think it's a shame that small farms *must* disappear, ........
		
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"MUST"?  Who says?  Not wilful misreading,  your words.

Alec.


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## gadetra (29 March 2013)

cptrayes said:



			To the many people who have wilfully misread my last post, I will repeat. My issue is not with any of the practices which are common to good farmers. My issue is with those farmers who refuse to acknowledge that farm animals, compared with other domesticated animals, are kept in a way that would be considered a welfare issue if it were not farming.

What would the equine world say if foals were routinely taken off their mothers at two weeks old so that the mares could go out and compete, for example?

I know the two do not compare, but to deny that there are any animal welfare issues among even well cared for farm animals is patently two faced. There are. They are tolerated so that the public can eat cheap meat and drink cheap milk.  I eat meat and drink milk.  I don't like the way milk is made, with cows now bred  with udders so huge that they drag on the ground, if they are ever allowed out. I would prefer a more humane source as my daily osteoporosis preventative, but can anyone tell me where I can buy skimmed milk from a cow still nursing its calf, please?  

Regarding the price of milk, can anyone explain to me what happened to the Milk Marketing Board? My impression is that pricing was controlled by the MMB as a monopoly supplier who had the whip hand over the supermarkets. Who gave up that monopoly - was it bigger greedy dairy farmers who wanted to negotiate their own price direct? If so, does the industry have no-one to blame but themselves for the situation they now find themselves in? 

I do know about the vicious practices that the supermarkets operate. A friend of mine had organic lambs turned away with less than 24 hours notice by a big one, and had to take a loss selling them as non-organic. It's not right, but only acting in concert instead of competitively will counter the strength of the supermarkets. Meanwhile, I refuse to buy any pork that is not bred in Britain, because our welfare standards have been adoopted earlier than other EU countries and our farmers are at a disadvantage because of it. 

The balance between animal welfare and cost is one that should, in a civilised society, be able to be discussed without resort to some of the abuse that's flying around on this thread.
		
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Ok. I think there are supplements you can take to guard against oesteoporosis-calium so you don't have to go through the horror of drinking farmed milk. Or chocolate. Or cheese etc.
On a serious note.Have you ever been in a milking parlour? There is no room for calves amongst all that euipment. The chance of tehm falling into the pit and killing themselves would also be high.
So why not have the cows out with them for a few hours a day I hear you say? Have you tried to separate cows from calves 3 times a day? And make the operation profitable enough with the drop in milk yields? I'm afraid this is fanciful and wishful thinking in the real world. Possible only if you can afford to lose wast amounts of money and time.
No one like the waste of dairy bull calves. It is a neccesary evil of the industry. Unless people develop a taste for rose veal (and IMHO they should) it will continue to happen.
You can never get to the end of a Holstein bullock to feed. They are big rangy cattle and always kill out badly. We have had a few camels over the years. You simply can't feed them up enough to make them viable for beef production, no more than you can turn all the unwanted, indiscriminately bred foals into Gold Cup winners. It is not physically possible. Brittish freisans and some franch breds kill out slightly better than the holsteiners, but still not enough to make them viable.
I have never seen cows with udders draggin along the ground?
Milk prices are set my a cartell of creameries and supermarkets. farmers get 17c a litre over here to produce milk. It is &#8364;1.59 for a litre of milk in the shop. I suggest you direct your indignation in their direction, not at the farmers.
Neighbours of ours have been burned by Tesco with their lamb. Also a lot of veg producers. One sold his carrots before the season to tesco for x price, set grew and harvested them to tesco, tesco them told him they were doing a half price promotion and only paid him half the agreed amount. This goes on every day of the week. The IFA (Irish Farmer Association) has a number of cases against tesco and other supermarkets for this and reason.

I agree with you about pork. I do the same thing.

I find your comment about small farms insulting, uninformed, and frankly ignorant. I am shocked you can take up such an attitude without having any knowledge of the realities of the thing. I am quite upset at your attitude on that particular issue I have to say.
Also no one has used a small income as an excuse for poor animal welfare? I have no idea wher you got that from. No matter how broke the farmer the animals are the last to suffer I can guarantee you that.


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## EPRider (29 March 2013)

The milk marketing board and all the other boards that worked.  The government in their wisdom listened to the supermarkets and large distributors and declared them to be a monopoly and forced them to disband.  The first real death knell for dairy farming in this country.


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## cptrayes (29 March 2013)

Because they are, as is clear from this thread, economically completely unviable even with EU susidies.  It may have taken a once every 10-12 year snowfall to emphasize just how unviable they are, but how many educated children will accept following their fathers and mothers into penury to carry on farming, even if the land has been in the family for centuries?  The farms around me are being sold to hobby farmers as the owners die off and the children don't want to farm. The land is being sold separately and usually amalgamated into other existing farms to create bigger operations which are more cost effective. It seems to me inevitable that the production of meat and milk will continue to be done in  smaller and smaller numbers of bigger and bigger units.

The other thing that seems to be being completely ignored is that we don't need this food. Meat is a luxury, not a necessity. No-one has a God given right to make a profit from it. Sheep are more effectively farmed on the plains in larger numbers. Hill farming is inefficient and ineffective. It keeps the countryside looking as we have come to expect it, but the world would not end if sheep farming did, it would just look different. Not worse, not better, just different.


Apologies for the rants I have nothing else to do. The Council have failed to clear the drifts out of my road. I cannot ride out, and getting out by vehicle is over some bumpy fields, though we will make the effort for a curry later is only to save our sanity.


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## cptrayes (29 March 2013)

gadetra said:



			Ok. I think there are supplements you can take to guard against oesteoporosis-calium so you don't have to go through the horror  of drinking farmed milk.
		
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Supplements are not as readily bio available and risk kidney stones, which I would not wish on the worst farmer in the world.




			On a serious note.Have you ever been in a milking parlour? There is no room for calves amongst all that euipment. The chance of tehm falling into the pit and killing themselves would also be high.
		
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Quite. We keep cows in such a way as to make it impossible for them to keep their calves with them and be milked. This is an economic choice.




			I find your comment about small farms insulting, uninformed, and frankly ignorant.
		
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Which bits have insulted you?
Which are uninformed and ignorant?
Most of my friends are small farmers. I do not feel uninformed about their lives, but please correct anything wrong that I have said.




			Also no one has used a small income as an excuse for poor animal welfare? I have no idea wher you got that from. No matter how broke the farmer the animals are the last to suffer I can guarantee you that.
		
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It's earlier on in the thread. It was used as a reason why some farmers did not have feed on standby in case the forecast snow was more disruptive than expected.


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## MurphysMinder (29 March 2013)

gadetra said:



			No one like the waste of dairy bull calves. It is a neccesary evil of the industry. Unless people develop a taste for rose veal (and IMHO they should) it will continue to happen.

*I would be interested to know how many people on here are aware of rose veal.  I agree with you if more people ate it then there would be a use for these bull calves.
*

Neighbours of ours have been burned by Tesco with their lamb. Also a lot of veg producers. One sold his carrots before the season to tesco for x price, set grew and harvested them to tesco, tesco them told him they were doing a half price promotion and only paid him half the agreed amount. This goes on every day of the week. The IFA (Irish Farmer Association) has a number of cases against tesco and other supermarkets for this and reason.

*Exactly the same happened to a local farmer and cheese producer.  Tesco's gave them a contract for all their cheese, and once they had them well and truly tied in they started putting the screws on price wise.  End result was they gave up the cheese making, and a delicious product was lost.*

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## amandap (29 March 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Sheep are more effectively farmed on the plains in larger numbers. Hill farming is inefficient and ineffective. It keeps the countryside looking as we have come to expect it, but the world would not end if sheep farming did, it would just look different. Not worse, not better, just different.
		
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It isn't the change in landscape that fills me with dread, it's the thought of more and more factory farming. 
Those disgusting Anchor adverts say it all to me, what a future...  I'm glad I'm old and grew up when I did. Still, at least the animals will be tucked up in their duvets with music playing, with a processed, perfectly balanced, full fat diet served at their standing station. They'll be safe from the weather and 'we' will be happy because they look nice and clean and well feed so must be 'happy'.


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## cptrayes (29 March 2013)

The way the big supermarkets treats farmers stinks and is probably illegal. But anyone who sues for breach of contract doesn't get a contract again. We need a LOT more action from somewhere (whistleblowers in the supermarket?, undercover investigations?) on the contract abuses going on daily.

Amanda I share your horror of the milk factories. It's bad enough to manage hens that way, but large mammals - horrific.

I can only hope that as we run out of easily available oil we are forced to go back to a more localised production on a smaller scale. We wait and see.


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## Alec Swan (29 March 2013)

cptrayes said:



			The way the big supermarkets treats farmers stinks and is probably illegal. But anyone who sues for breach of contract doesn't get a contract again. We need a LOT more action from somewhere (whistleblowers in the supermarket?, undercover investigations?) on the contract abuses going on daily.

Amanda I share your horror of the milk factories. It's bad enough to manage hens that way, but large mammals - horrific.

I can only hope that as we run out of easily available oil we are forced to go back to a more localised production on a smaller scale. We wait and see.
		
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Para 1 deals with the Supermarkets who determine the paid price.  Before we had Supermarkets,  our food suppliers bought through markets,  and they had to bid for what they bought.  Then we had "Boards" that formed.  The idea with these boards was that they would protect their members,  and to an extent,  they did.  Specifically with milk,  and the by-products,  there is now no protection for the producer.  It is vital that Government steps in,  reinstates a system of "Subsidy",  and protects our ability to produce our own dairy products.

I've rather jumped in front.  *"Subsidies"*.  Though we no longer have them,  we've renamed them and we're offered them for environmental nonsense,  they are still,  in effect,  the same thing,  they've just been re-labelled. 

If we have no subsidised food production,  then the British farmer will not survive.  "So what"?  I hear you say.  It would be catastrophic.  We already have to compete with food imported from abroad,  and if our agricultural industry is to go to the wall,  then we will be at the mercy of those whose idea of animal welfare,  and the general protocol of principled food production,  is all but non-existent.  When any industry is abandoned,  then as our coal mines,  a re-start would be impossible.

Para 2.  I too share your disquiet over the dairy industry.  I attend County and local shows,  and I see dairy cattle being "shown",  which are wafer thin,  and I wonder why.  Wafer thin actually equates to "of skeletal proportion",  and I wonder why.  Perhaps someone can explain to me how an emaciated dairy cow produces more,  or better milk.  If they were a horse,  you'd be in Court,  that quick,  your feet wouldn't touch the ground.  

I don't have an answer to the question of dairy production,  except to say that without further EU regs (which the French will ignore ),  then dairy cows will be the milk machines,  and will remain plugged into,  milk machines.

Para 3.  That would be the ideal solution,  I agree,  but it all comes around to the same old question,  when a family who are struggling to support and house and cloth and educate and feed,  a young family,  and they see a pint of milk for £1,  in one shop,  and a pint of milk for £2 in another,  which one do we suppose that they will buy?

On another note,  and to quote you from another thread,  where you state that sheep are better farmed on the plains,  that's true if you're into promoting factory, or mass farming principles.  The truth is that some 5-10k years ago,  man sourced his first sheep from the mountains.  The sheep was a hill animal then,  and it still is.  Sheep are still better kept on the hill,  where they prosper.

Alec.


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## CorvusCorax (29 March 2013)

So, a question to those who appear to have all the answers 

So our poorly earning farmers, many devoid of formal qualifications, ship out and get some of the abundance of well paying jobs elsewhere (!!!!!!) who looks after and maintains the mountainous, inhospitable countryside that tourists just love to drive through and look at from their car windows as they sail past? And for what incentive?
Not too many plains around here, that's for sure. You'd have to decimate wildlife and hedgerows to create them in some of the more fertile land.

Honestly, I think some of the posters on this thread would have wet their knickers if they'd been forced to cope with the conditions we had last weekend, and we don't even have livestock.


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## Alec Swan (29 March 2013)

I suppose,  C_C,  that if we'd never had sheep on our secondary land,  then we wouldn't have had the ecology which we now enjoy,  and most seem to want to maintain.  We'd have virtually impenetrable wastelands,  by comparison,  but then to replace the existing wild life,  we'd probably still have bears and wolves.  We'd have less deer,  with increased and larger predators,  and then we'd still have those who'd moan 'cause we wanted to shoot the wolves which were killing our calves!

Thinking about it,  I suppose that it's sheep which have laid our hill ground bare,  or at least contributed to it,  and where we have few grouse,  that's because the heather,  upon which the bird depends,  has been replaced by a rather rank grass,  though even then,  all native species seem to prosper.

It's all a matter of balance.  Without the Herdwickes of Cumbria,  Beatrice Potter would have had to find another passion.  Without the Blackface yows of Scotland,  Scott would have found another subject.

Back to those who farm in a small way,  those who can't maintain a family upon their insufficient earnings,  so often the wives,  and even the husbands,  have secondary incomes to augment their meagre incomes.  With the disastrous times which many are now having,  their secondary jobs are what allow them to continue.  I admire their fortitude,  as most of us do. 

Alec.


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## bonny (29 March 2013)

Blimey, this thread has gone from why didn't farmers get their sheep in before it snowed to the end of farming as we know it....all in a couple of days !!


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## justabob (29 March 2013)

bonny said:



			Blimey, this thread has gone from why didn't farmers get their sheep in before it snowed to the end of farming as we know it....all in a couple of days !!
		
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The funniest post ever.........


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## Clodagh (29 March 2013)

OK I haven't read all of this but Alec an excellent reply.
Cpt, if when the small farms are all closed down, as you seem to eagerly await, then who is going to look after your countryside for you so you can carry on playing in it when you feel like venturing past the end of your drive?

I seem to have missed a few posts there...oops, blame the wine! I have to confess I have just got home from all day at Tesco (much to the disgust of farming friends) and the other days I clean houses and work at a livery yard, this is meant to be holiday and 'fun' money but this year is going to pay the final instalment on the tractor, farming is a luxury lifestyle!


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## Dry Rot (29 March 2013)

Small farmers, called crofters up here in Scotland, are the life blood of the Highlands. Certainly, they may be uneconomical but the crofter is also the one who drives the school bus, delivers the mail, runs the local shop, etc. Without the land as an anchor, the crofter would be working in Australia, Canada, or New Zealand.

I used to manage a 66,000 acre crofting estate and had to visit those who would not agree to a rent increase or some improvement. I visited one old lady who did no even have a road to her house. She explained that she had been a matron in a big London teaching hospital, one son was a consultant surgeon at another hospital, a second son was the captain of an oil tanker, and so it went on for every member of her extensive family.

Small farms may be uneconomical in terms of livestock production, but they have produced countless people who have gone on to do great things in the outside world. Perhaps they don't produce a lot of food, but what people! I assume cptraves would prefer an unpopulated wilderness.


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## Clodagh (29 March 2013)

cpt would probably prefer nice small grass fields with well maintained hedges and hunt jumps. Oh, who provides those now!?


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## cptrayes (29 March 2013)

Clodagh said:



			cpt would probably prefer nice small grass fields with well maintained hedges and hunt jumps. Oh, who provides those now!?
		
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It really is pointless trying to engage in a sensible debate on an internet form, isn't it?   My personal preferred passtime has absolutely no relevance to the future of farming. Accepting that there are welfare issues even in good farming doesn't in any way mean that i hate farmers or farming. Pointing out that small farms are unviable businesses does not mean that I want them to be that  way, or that I want them to disappear.,

But of course it's much more fun if we all pretend otherwise, isn't it  ?


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## wiltshireguy (29 March 2013)

Wait, wait, wait...

What happens to all the animals when the farmer takes the hedges to market? 

Do those cute little strips of land around the outside of the field keep them in?


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## MagicMelon (29 March 2013)

Dry Rot said:



			Small farmers, called crofters up here in Scotland, are the life blood of the Highlands. Certainly, they may be uneconomical but the crofter is also the one who drives the school bus, delivers the mail, runs the local shop, etc.
		
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Not sure which part of Scotland you're from (possibly the Highlands since you mentioned it), but I've lived here all my life and have never heard a farmer being referred to as a crofter, they're simply farmers!  All the farmers I know (and yes I am surrounded by them as I live in the middle of nowhere), are purely farmers.  I've never met one who also has another job...!

I haven't read all the stuff since the first page of this, so in relation to that - I don't really get why farmers down south hadn't brought their sheep down onto lower land and certainly given them plenty of food.  We get bad snow up here, yet I've not heard of any sheep getting buried and dying...


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## Leaf (29 March 2013)

cptrayes said:



			can anyone tell me where I can buy skimmed milk from a cow still nursing its calf, please?  

My place.... Also butter, cream, soft cheese, and a semi hard cheese (oooeerrr) but although I am expanding I could never do it this was on a large scale. Also raise rose veal on their dams. 

Why not do a "Cow op" like they do in the US? Buy a cull cow or two from a dairy with a group of like minded people, share costs and chores but all have the benefit of fresh dairy raised in an ethical way you are in control of.... Just food for thought?
		
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## Fii (29 March 2013)

cptrayes said:



			The other thing that seems to be being completely ignored is that we don't need this food. Meat is a luxury, not a necessity. No-one has a God given right to make a profit from it. Sheep are more effectively farmed on the plains in larger numbers. Hill farming is inefficient and ineffective. It keeps the countryside looking as we have come to expect it, but the world would not end if sheep farming did, it would just look different. Not worse, not better, just different.
		
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.......

[COLOR="BlYour world would not end, but the landscape would change so dramatically that the wildlife currently enjoying its life on these hills, would be lost!, with no sheep grazing rare plants would not thrive, scrub, willow , blackthorn, and long rank grass would replace any wild plants, flowers, , and , if there was no "meat" farming at all anywhere in this country, the countryside would look worse, and in fact could well spell the end, no wild flowers no honey bee, no honey bee, no flowers, plants dont get pollinated so dont reproduce. So no meat, no plants, no food!   
 "][/COLOR]


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## Alec Swan (29 March 2013)

MagicMelon said:



			Not sure which part of Scotland you're from (possibly the Highlands since you mentioned it), but I've lived here all my life and have never heard a farmer being referred to as a crofter,  *Google "Crofter",  and then you'll have a better understanding. * they're simply farmers!  All the farmers I know (and yes I am surrounded by them as I live in the middle of nowhere), are purely farmers.  I've never met one who also has another job...! *You live amongst the privileged,  it would seem.  *

I haven't read all the stuff since the first page of this, so in relation to that - I don't really get why farmers down south hadn't brought their sheep down onto lower land and certainly given them plenty of food.  We get bad snow up here, yet I've not heard of any sheep getting buried and dying... *Patently,  you live in a different world from others,  and there was me thinking that Aberdeen was Gaelic for hypothermia! *

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Alec.


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## YorksG (29 March 2013)

Sadly an awful lot of people have a stock answer whenever anyone claims that their working conditions and pay are not adequate or appropriate, "get a different job" It is often trotted out to those of us who work with the uncuddly vulnerable members of society, now it is being trotted out to the farmers. There is usually no suggestion of who would then do the job' just put up or shut up, or maybe get a job in finance, because of course that will solve all the worlds ills!


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## Alec Swan (29 March 2013)

YorksG said:



			....... an awful lot of people have a stock answer whenever anyone claims that their working conditions and pay are not adequate or appropriate, "get a different job" It is often trotted out to those of us who work with the uncuddly vulnerable members of society, now it is being trotted out to the farmers. .......
		
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I sometimes wonder if this forum's critics,  of those who farm,  aren't more concerned with the posters who they are carping about,  than the subject itself.  Their opinions are of little worth,  either way.  

Alec.


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## bonny (29 March 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			I sometimes wonder if this forum's critics,  of those who farm,  aren't more concerned with the posters who they are carping about,  than the subject itself.  Their opinions are of little worth either way.  

Alec.
		
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Everyone's opinions are of equal worth....yours are no more valid than anyone elses....apart from in your own mind of course !


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## martlin (29 March 2013)

What a sad, sad thread it has become


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## Alec Swan (29 March 2013)

bonny said:



			Everyone's opinions are of equal worth....yours are no more valid than anyone elses....apart from in your own mind of course !
		
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Mine are born of experience.  Tell me,  from where do yours originate? 

Alec.


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## bonny (29 March 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			Mine are born of experience.  Tell me,  from where do yours originate? 

Alec.
		
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The same but according to you yours are the only experiences that count ....


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## Fii (29 March 2013)

bonny said:



			Everyone's opinions are of equal worth....yours are no more valid than anyone elses....apart from in your own mind of course !
		
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But if those opinions are blatantly, said with no actual knowledge behind them then they are not worth a jot!


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## YorksG (29 March 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			I sometimes wonder if this forum's critics,  of those who farm,  aren't more concerned with the posters who they are carping about,  than the subject itself.  Their opinions are of little worth,  either way.  

Alec.
		
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I am quite saddend that that is how you read my post, and that that is your view of my opinion..


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## bonny (29 March 2013)

Fii said:



			But if those opinions are blatantly, said with no actual knowledge behind them then they are not worth a jot!
		
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Not true, we actually have no idea about each others experiences or knowledge, beyond what we write on here. Everybody is of equal worth


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## gadetra (29 March 2013)

martlin said:



			What a sad, sad thread it has become 

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True. I always have hope that the general population understand farming, and the crazy, uninformed uneducated views of 'how it should be' reside in the further reaches of irrationality. This has not been the case, in this thread anyway. Sad is what it is unfortunately.


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## Alec Swan (29 March 2013)

YorksG said:



			I am quite saddend that that is how you read my post, and that that is your view of my opinion..
		
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You've completely misunderstood my point.  I was supporting your argument! 

Alec.


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## Fii (29 March 2013)

bonny said:



			Not true, we actually have no idea about each others experiences or knowledge, beyond what we write on here. Everybody is of equal worth
		
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Well yes that is true, people do lie about there "experience" or big up what they have done in life, but you can usually tell by what people write, how much they really know!  

i think you have to live the life of a farmer before making sweeping statements , and by that i mean really live it, not just for a few weeks of lambing, but for years, with the financial worry, the loss, the weather, all the things that go on in your life now,  all tied up in a few acres of land filled with the animals that can make or break your existence! A herd can be wiped out by Tb, or foot and mouth, all your lambs could be born dead, or die hours after birth, there are fences to mend, ditches to dig, hedges to lay, walls to re-pare, barns to re pare, machinery that breaks, ....this list is endless and i dont wish to bore you, but looking in from the outside you only see a fraction of what goes on!!


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## YorksG (29 March 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			You've completely misunderstood my point.  I was supporting your argument! 

Alec.
		
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Sorry Alec, my only excuse is that it has been a long day, the first time we've managed to turn anything out for a week


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## Dry Rot (30 March 2013)

MagicMelon said:



			Not sure which part of Scotland you're from (possibly the Highlands since you mentioned it), but I've lived here all my life and have never heard a farmer being referred to as a crofter, they're simply farmers!  All the farmers I know (and yes I am surrounded by them as I live in the middle of nowhere), are purely farmers.  I've never met one who also has another job...!

I haven't read all the stuff since the first page of this, so in relation to that - I don't really get why farmers down south hadn't brought their sheep down onto lower land and certainly given them plenty of food.  We get bad snow up here, yet I've not heard of any sheep getting buried and dying...
		
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Not sure when Aberdeenshire became part of the Highlands either!!!

It seems this thread has collected everyone on HHO who wants to have a fight or disagree. I'm off.


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## Amymay (30 March 2013)

I don't think so, Dry Rot. Magic Melon simply brings us back to the original question.


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## lachlanandmarcus (30 March 2013)

Yes all the sheep should have been in sheds. 

..............wonder if these pigs feel the same?? 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-21978572

Indoors is by no means risk free. Main risk is collapse of buildings under weight of snow in the current circumstance, but fire is also a hazard with any large scale livestock indoors.


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## Dry Rot (30 March 2013)

amymay said:



			I don't think so, Dry Rot. Magic Melon simply brings us back to the original question.
		
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Don't think what?

Only last winter there were several cases of livestock buildings collapsing with the weight of snow in Aberdeenshire. Drifting snow needs wind or it just settles so losses were mercifully few.<duh>

I lived in the county next door to Aberdeenshire (Banffshire), so also N E Scotland,  for ten years (my neighbour was a crofter!) and one winter we had 26 inches of snow. Another year we got four inches on the 4th June and roads were blocked. But it didn't drift. No wind.

If Magic Melon was not so obviously ignorant she could simply do a Google.  Better to keep your mouth shut and appear a fool than to open it and dispel all doubt:

_Despite its challenges, crofting is important to the Highlands and Islands. At March 2002 there were 17,721 crofts, and 12,000 to 13,000 crofters (some crofters have the tenancy of more than one croft or there is croft absenteeism where tenancies are held but crofts are not farmed). About 30,000 family members lived in crofting households, or around 10% of the population of the Highlands and Islands. Crofting households represented around 30% those in the rural areas of the Highlands, and up to 65% of households in Shetland, the Western Isles and Skye. There were 770,000 hectares under crofting tenure, roughly 25% of the agricultural land area in the Crofting Counties. Crofters had around 20% of all beef cattle (120,000 head) and 45% of breeding ewes (1.5 million sheep)._


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## silu (30 March 2013)

cptrayes


Apologies for the rants I have nothing else to do. The Council have failed to clear the drifts out of my road. I cannot ride out said:
			
		


			( Quote Dry Rot)

It seems this thread has collected everyone on HHO who wants to have a fight or disagree. I'm off. (Quote)

Think more than a curry (maybe lamb!)will be necessary. When others are battling to keep animals alive and the posters main gripe is that they can't ride out..aaawww. Never heard of a shovel?

Completely agree with Dry Rot, I'm off too, have far more productive things to do, like actually helping a farmer, than vent my spleen because my hobby has been put on hold. If any of the bleating lot are equestrian professionals and their livlihood/stock threatened  by this terrible weather I'd be very interested in all your details and PROOF you are!
		
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## Dolcé (30 March 2013)

Oh well, when all the farmers and landowners have sold up to developers, because they can't make an honest living, we won't have to worry about sheep and snow drifts, neglect of farm animals, getting out on country roads etc.  All the green space will have been built on, there will be no homelessness, no horses/sheep/cattle/hay grown, the tiniest field will be rented to the odd horse owner at an absolute premium but the roads will be far too busy for them to ride out.  Food might be a bit expensive, and probably low quality, because it will all be imported, rather than home grown.  What a lovely future to look forward to!!!


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## cptrayes (30 March 2013)

silu said:



			( Quote Dry Rot)
Think more than a curry (maybe lamb!)will be necessary. When others are battling to keep animals alive and the posters main gripe is that they can't ride out..aaawww. Never heard of a shovel?
		
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We have spent a total of well over 30 hours clearing snow from our own and farmers gateways with shovels to enable us to get out over the fields. This is what is still in our road. Now why don't you grab a shovel and come and help me clear this drift? It's only 400 metres long.  

www.diaryoface.blogspot.com/2013/03/digging-our-way-out-today.html


ps it was a lamb rogon josh. Lovely it was too.


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## YorksG (30 March 2013)

cptrays, surely by your own standards, if you don't like the conditions where you live, you should just move?


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## Clodagh (30 March 2013)

Dolcé;11666229 said:
			
		


			Oh well, when all the farmers and landowners have sold up to developers, because they can't make an honest living, we won't have to worry about sheep and snow drifts, neglect of farm animals, getting out on country roads etc.  All the green space will have been built on, there will be no homelessness, no horses/sheep/cattle/hay grown, the tiniest field will be rented to the odd horse owner at an absolute premium but the roads will be far too busy for them to ride out.  Food might be a bit expensive, and probably low quality, because it will all be imported, rather than home grown.  What a lovely future to look forward to!!!
		
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Very true.

There is such a lot of bad feeling towards farmers on this forum generally, not just they neglect their animals but also they charge too much for hay/straw/grazing/whatever. Why is that? Is it because as horse owners we are reliant on them to an extent and reliance causes negativity?

Farmers tend not to be overly sentimental about their animals but that shouldn't be confused with lack of care or feeling towards them. Not all, I know, like not all gypsies neglect their horses. The overweight labrador living in a flat and ambling round the park once a day might be 'more loved' by its owner than a working collie, but who do you think has the better lifestyle? The collie may sleep in a barn or a kennel and probably doesn't get luxury food but which is more fulfilled?


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## Dolcé (30 March 2013)

Clodagh said:



			Very true.

There is such a lot of bad feeling towards farmers on this forum generally, not just they neglect their animals but also they charge too much for hay/straw/grazing/whatever. Why is that? Is it because as horse owners we are reliant on them to an extent and reliance causes negativity?

Farmers tend not to be overly sentimental about their animals but that shouldn't be confused with lack of care or feeling towards them. Not all, I know, like not all gypsies neglect their horses. The overweight labrador living in a flat and ambling round the park once a day might be 'more loved' by its owner than a working collie, but who do you think has the better lifestyle? The collie may sleep in a barn or a kennel and probably doesn't get luxury food but which is more fulfilled?
		
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And I wonder just how many of those who complain about the price of forage/bedding etc actually have a clue about the amount of work that goes into making it.  If they think they can do it better then they should get out there, buy (or even try tendering, now THAT is an eye opener) a farm and 'live the dream', the reality would have them selling up in no time I think and scarpering back to a 9 til 5 with guaranteed wage and no worries about getting a harvest in, getting animals up to weight to sell for meat, getting a fair price for crop or stock, and that is not to mention the day to day sheer hard work (and expense) of just maintaining buildings and land.  Our farmers should be applauded and supported!


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## Fellewell (30 March 2013)

gadetra said:



			True. I always have hope that the general population understand farming, and the crazy, uninformed uneducated views of 'how it should be' reside in the further reaches of irrationality. This has not been the case, in this thread anyway. Sad is what it is unfortunately.
		
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Don't despair gadetra. We have an answer for the crazies and the uninformed. Look no further than the Countryside Alliance, the people who do know what they're talking about


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## FfionWinnie (30 March 2013)

cptrayes said:



			ps it was a lamb rogon josh. Lovely it was too.
		
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I wonder where the lamb came from to make the curry

No matter. Once there are no farmers we can have dog curry, rat curry and cat curry. Yum yum. Won't be able to have horse curry as no affordable forage or bedding to keep them on.


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## Miss L Toe (30 March 2013)

Trinity Fox said:



			I am glad you have brought this up,I am fed up of looking at sheep near us lame, left out in all weathers with no feed shelter.
Huge sheds standing empty and food on site sheep screaming at me when they see me feeding horses.

When we had the bad snow a couple of years ago we were left feeding sheep as the person who owned them used to come and check on them every couple of months if that.
There is even a person who has been banned who is keeping them in somebody else's name, I know not all farmers are like this but we see so much sheer neglect and my dad always comments he does not want to comeback as a sheep in another life.

Half of them near us do not even do basic checking we are always having to get them up on there feet after being down for so long and gassing up,we have also found them with eyes pecked out etc so the fact many were not brought in does not surprise me in the least.
It is very frustrating and depressing.

Click to expand...

This is a welfare issue, all animals need attention, feed and water, report them to RSPCA.
Bringing sheep / cattle inside in less than ideal conditions can easily lead to pneumonia, they are usually best outside with hay.
Ewes due to lamb need extra grub, most farmers will feed them as an economic necessity.
If eyes are being pecked out on live ewes, report to the farmer immediately, and say you will retun to animal, if no response, report immediately. I did this, the farm was part of an RSPB reserve!!!! the RSPCA turned up, but not before the farmer tried to run me down with his lorry, lol. I survived!!!


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## FfionWinnie (30 March 2013)

Clodagh said:



			Very true.

There is such a lot of bad feeling towards farmers on this forum generally, not just they neglect their animals but also they charge too much for hay/straw/grazing/whatever. Why is that? Is it because as horse owners we are reliant on them to an extent and reliance causes negativity?

Farmers tend not to be overly sentimental about their animals but that shouldn't be confused with lack of care or feeling towards them. Not all, I know, like not all gypsies neglect their horses. The overweight labrador living in a flat and ambling round the park once a day might be 'more loved' by its owner than a working collie, but who do you think has the better lifestyle? The collie may sleep in a barn or a kennel and probably doesn't get luxury food but which is more fulfilled?
		
Click to expand...

Great post. 

I do however love my working dogs more than any pet I have even had. They are my work mates, my company, they give their all for me and to me a good sheep dog is an utterly amazing thing. 

Ffi and Mist now sadly retired (deaf and blind respectively at nearly 13 and 10, they were 12 and 9 in this video). 

http://youtu.be/aUIugOdy7l8


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## cptrayes (30 March 2013)

YorksG said:



			cptrays, surely by your own standards, if you don't like the conditions where you live, you should just move?
		
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When I can't cope in heavy snow, which we get several times most winters, any more, as will happen when  we are too old, we will move. 

The only thing unusual about this weather for us and the sheep farmers around us, is the timing, which is once in about 12 years, and this year,  the fact that our Council chose not to replace their snowblowers once they got old. In consequence Cheshire ratepayers are now paying  a fortune to have gangs of men working all Easter Weekend to clear compacted snow. They can do a around 10m an hour, when a blower will do 100m an hour.

I hope this answered your question? Meanwhile am I not allowed to point out to a previous poster that being told to get a shovel out is  not quite to the point?


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## cptrayes (30 March 2013)

FfionWinnie said:



			I wonder where the lamb came from to make the curry

No matter. Once there are no farmers we can have dog curry, rat curry and cat curry. Yum yum. Won't be able to have horse curry as no affordable forage or bedding to keep them on.
		
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My alternative choice is vegetable biryani which I enjoy just as much. Meat is a nice luxury, not an essential. There are at  least two major world religions which are vegetarian. Meat is not a requirement for human health.  

If we were to stop breeding beef cattle, lamb and pork and all adopt a vegetarian diet the price of horse bedding would drop through the floor because there would  be so much less competitive use for shavings or straw.


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## Alec Swan (30 March 2013)

cptrayes said:



			....... There are at  least two major world religions which are vegetarian. *Meat is not a requirement for human health*.  

.......
		
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You're right,  and neither is religion! 

So now we're on to food.  I know quite a few veggies,  and they all have that sallow and shrunken look.  They look so pasty and ashen.  Don't get me wrong now,  their lovely people,  all of them,  but they just don't look to be rude with health.  

Alec.


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## cptrayes (30 March 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			You're right,  and neither is religion! 

So now we're on to food.  I know quite a few veggies,  and they all have that sallow and shrunken look.  They look so pasty and ashen.  Don't get me wrong now,  their lovely people,  all of them,  but they just don't look to be rude with health.  

Alec.
		
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I wasn't going to take the discussion in this direction Alec, but since you have, there is plenty of evidence that a meat free diet would result in a much healthier population with  lower rates of heart disease and bowel cancer the principle, but  not only, benefits.


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## Alec Swan (30 March 2013)

FfionWinnie said:



			Great post. 

I do however love my working dogs more than any pet I have even had. They are my work mates, my company, .......
		
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My collies,  over the years are the only people of whom I've never tired.  The film at 3 mins 30,  with the dog facing the ewe with her lamb.  POWER!!  A dog which wont face down,  or stand up to a sheep,  is of no use to me.  I need strength in a dog.  That dog of yours has it,  in abundance!!

Alec.


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## mon (30 March 2013)

Weak sheepdogs are no use I agree a good dog worth weight in gold.


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## margaretb (30 March 2013)

cptrayes said:



			My alternative choice is vegetable biryani which I enjoy just as much. Meat is a nice luxury, not an essential. There are at  least two major world religions which are vegetarian. Meat is not a requirement for human health.  

If we were to stop breeding beef cattle, lamb and pork and all adopt a vegetarian diet the price of horse bedding would drop through the floor because there would  be so much less competitive use for shavings or straw.
		
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And the countryside would revert to scrubland without anything to graze it...


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## justabob (30 March 2013)

margaretb said:



			And the countryside would revert to scrubland without anything to graze it...
		
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You are right, in FMD we had no stock on the land for well over a year and weeds and thistles soon reared their ugly little heads.


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## lachlanandmarcus (30 March 2013)

cptrayes said:



			My alternative choice is vegetable biryani which I enjoy just as much. Meat is a nice luxury, not an essential. There are at  least two major world religions which are vegetarian. Meat is not a requirement for human health.  

If we were to stop breeding beef cattle, lamb and pork and all adopt a vegetarian diet the price of horse bedding would drop through the floor because there would  be so much less competitive use for shavings or straw.
		
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Dream on. Most grain is used for animal feed. Without that market for the grain, or replacement of fertility from the manure, there will BE no straw. Shavings you might still get, true, but with no straw the competition for the already at times restricted supply of wood mass given increasing competition from power stations and biomass boilers will result in still higher prices than the high ones there are today. 

Enjoy your turnips


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## jrp204 (30 March 2013)

So, we all go veggie. That's fine, we can desecrate poorer countries, who needs rain forest etc anyway?


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## Dry Rot (30 March 2013)

Red meat is an essential ingredient for the formation of brain tissue. 

Anyone who doubts that need only read this thread.


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## Alec Swan (30 March 2013)

Dry Rot said:



			Red meat is an essential ingredient for the formation of brain tissue. 

Anyone who doubts that need only read this thread.

Click to expand...

  The post of the year!! 

Still funny,  20 minutes later!! 

Alec.


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## CorvusCorax (30 March 2013)

Here's a newspaper piece about a farmer and his wife, a vet.

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/headlines/vet-wife-and-farmer-husband-on-weather-misery-1-4954508

Interesting points about the problems associated with lambing indoors.


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## Bertieb123 (30 March 2013)

Bloody hell what is going on on here? We hate farmers and then some think we all should turn veggie!? Not in my world! Just getting the very locally produced steak out to cook on the griddle, had a very hard day looking after my animals and other things (venturing to Wales to help others). I may be tired but satisfied.


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## gadetra (30 March 2013)

Dry Rot said:



			Red meat is an essential ingredient for the formation of brain tissue. 

Anyone who doubts that need only read this thread.

Click to expand...

Quote of the thread!
Like Like Like!

Also Cave Canem that link was excellent.
I am going to repost in case anyone misses it:
http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/headlines/vet-wife-and-farmer-husband-on-weather-misery-1-4954508


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## Clodagh (30 March 2013)

Dry Rot said:



			Red meat is an essential ingredient for the formation of brain tissue. 

Anyone who doubts that need only read this thread.

Click to expand...

Like!

As for the rain forest...read in the paper today that a shortage of chocolate is comnig up, thats more important than steak, with this ''global warming'' can't we start growing it here?


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## Alec Swan (30 March 2013)

CaveCanem said:



			Here's a newspaper piece about a farmer and his wife, a vet.

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/headlines/vet-wife-and-farmer-husband-on-weather-misery-1-4954508

Interesting points about the problems associated with lambing indoors.
		
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An interesting and thought provoking article.  All so often  "Lambing in",  is offered as the answer,  but it's only a partial response.  The problems associated with "In"  as opposed to "Out",  are different and varied,  and though I've lambed countless thousands of ewes,  "In",  for others,  my own are always "Out".

Watery Mouth is preventable,  though immediate action must be taken,  at birth.  Twin Lamb,  can strike any ewe at any time,  and again if it's caught early enough,  it's eminently treatable,  with Ketosis and breakfast in bed!!

The trick with all the lambing "In" problems,  is preempting the strike.


Though voices have been raised here,  most points,  however they've been received should be considered.  The natural environment which has been formed by sheep,  and those who keep them,  should be maintained and encouraged.  With the possible exception of those who own Chatsworth,  I don't know anyone who's what I'd call rich,  and keeps sheep.  

The Shepherd's life,  is a way of life,  and it's a pastoral existence,  and we have highs and we have lows,  and those who can't continue following the recent dreadful times,  will be replaced by those who have youth,  and ambition,  and energy,  and I pray that they will receive all the support that they need.

Despite the ire,  I've rather enjoyed this thread.  I've a greater insight into others,  for which I thank them. 

Alec.


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## FfionWinnie (30 March 2013)

cptrayes said:



			My alternative choice is vegetable biryani which I enjoy just as much. Meat is a nice luxury, not an essential. There are at  least two major world religions which are vegetarian. Meat is not a requirement for human health.  

If we were to stop breeding beef cattle, lamb and pork and all adopt a vegetarian diet the price of horse bedding would drop through the floor because there would  be so much less competitive use for shavings or straw.
		
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Straw is a by product of the production of grain. Only the very best grain is used to feed humans. The vast majority is used to feed animals. 

So there would be very little straw around. 

Farmers don't use shavings.  Some use sawdust but that's untreated from the mill stuff not fancy horsey stuff. 

Any affordable forage is made by farmers because they have the machinery to make it and are making it for their livestock anyway.  Cattle particularly will eat poor quality forage that horses won't touch. 

So you could choose between marksway and horsehage probably. Which is rather expensive even now.


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## FfionWinnie (30 March 2013)

Dry Rot said:



			Red meat is an essential ingredient for the formation of brain tissue. 

Anyone who doubts that need only read this thread.

Click to expand...

I do love you DR


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## FfionWinnie (30 March 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			My collies,  over the years are the only people of whom I've never tired.  The film at 3 mins 30,  with the dog facing the ewe with her lamb.  POWER!!  A dog which wont face down,  or stand up to a sheep,  is of no use to me.  I need strength in a dog.  That dog of yours has it,  in abundance!!

Alec.
		
Click to expand...

Yes he has plenty of power but unfortunately he is also as thick as mince . He is not in the same league as the other two. 

He couldn't have got this gimmer in because he would have been at it like a bull in a china shop and she would have broken back to the flock. Power is importent but they need more than just power. These girls have power and everything I want in a dog. I have one daughter of the merle and two of her grand daughters out of the red one, to take over from them. If they are half as good I will be lucky (and happy!). 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poPniomG5wY

And this was a dog that could move an elephant. Unfortunately he got his leg broken moving cattle (which he finished moving before he would give up). He never recovered from the break which was in a bad place. Not sure I will ever get over the loss of him and I won't work a dog on cattle now hence I bought a cattle horse. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2XKbkLo3fo


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## BronsonNutter (30 March 2013)

Dry Rot said:



			Red meat is an essential ingredient for the formation of brain tissue. 

Anyone who doubts that need only read this thread.

Click to expand...

I gave up reading after about 10 pages and instead began banging my head against the wall 

PS. In response to the original question - why don't we just keep the sheep inside? Because if the farmer put his entire flock inside at once, he'd probably be breaking DEFRA's welfare guidance about minimum space per sheep  As well as increasing the risk of crushing newborn lambs, disease, over heating etc. 

The vast majority of farms I've been to have one barn for lambing, that is just big enough for a certain proportion of the flock. As so many go out with lambs, so many more who are due to lamb come in. It works most of the time, but unfortunately not this year


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## honeymum (30 March 2013)

bonny said:



			I think one of the problems with complaining farmers is that a lot of people would gladly swap places with them !
		
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Ahahahahahahaha, yeah for about 10 minutes til they realise what hard work it is for so little money.


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## justabob (31 March 2013)

FfionWinnie said:



			Yes he has plenty of power but unfortunately he is also as thick as mince . He is not in the same league as the other two. 

He couldn't have got this gimmer in because he would have been at it like a bull in a china shop and she would have broken back to the flock. Power is importent but they need more than just power. These girls have power and everything I want in a dog. I have one daughter of the merle and two of her grand daughters out of the red one, to take over from them. If they are half as good I will be lucky (and happy!). 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poPniomG5wY

And this was a dog that could move an elephant. Unfortunately he got his leg broken moving cattle (which he finished moving before he would give up). He never recovered from the break which was in a bad place. Not sure I will ever get over the loss of him and I won't work a dog on cattle now hence I bought a cattle horse. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2XKbkLo3fo

Click to expand...

Your cattle horse, as you call her, has no experience at at all with cattle going by your video. I wonder if when you start lambing you might not have as much time to be on this forum, as you seem to reply to every post going.


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## FfionWinnie (31 March 2013)

justabob said:



			Your cattle horse, as you call her, has no experience at at all with cattle going by your video. I wonder if when you start lambing you might not have as much time to be on this forum, as you seem to reply to every post going.
		
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And neither did my dogs with sheep when I bought them but they were bred for the job and I trained them. That's what I do. She is only 4, she will have plenty of experience this time next year. 

I expect I won't be here as much but I will still have my iPhone and I will still get email alerts and I will still have nothing to do while waiting for a bucket to fill or the dogs to bring sheep down to the pens and I might still reply to something to fill the time.

No doubt you'll still be here being nasty for the sake of it.


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## Amymay (31 March 2013)

That wasn't the original question bronsonnutter.


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## cptrayes (31 March 2013)

deleted


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## Clodagh (31 March 2013)

honeymum said:



			Ahahahahahahaha, yeah for about 10 minutes til they realise what hard work it is for so little money.
		
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I must admit that we have a fantastic lifestyle, we live in a beautiful but freezing cold and the roof has gone house, we walk on our own land and have no going to work in traffic issues.
On the other hand we never go away, except for overnight breaks, we never have a lie in and we have no bloody money!


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## DanceswithCows (31 March 2013)

I think what some people are forgetting is that farming is about so much more than meat, or food.  If you took everything out of your home & life that some part of came from a farmed animal, you wouldn't have a lot left, trust me.  For a start, look at tallow from the rendered bones etc.  That goes into most of your washing liquid and other such cleaning products.  

Instead of complaining, why don't you just TRY living like a vegan for a little while.  And not a fake half-assed vegan who only EATS veg, I mean a vegan who has to source vegan shoes, vegan deodorant, washing liquid and so on. Just have a little attempt and see how you like it


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## RunToEarth (31 March 2013)

Clodagh said:



			Very true.

There is such a lot of bad feeling towards farmers on this forum generally, not just they neglect their animals but also they charge too much for hay/straw/grazing/whatever. Why is that? Is it because as horse owners we are reliant on them to an extent and reliance causes negativity?

Farmers tend not to be overly sentimental about their animals but that shouldn't be confused with lack of care or feeling towards them. Not all, I know, like not all gypsies neglect their horses. The overweight labrador living in a flat and ambling round the park once a day might be 'more loved' by its owner than a working collie, but who do you think has the better lifestyle? The collie may sleep in a barn or a kennel and probably doesn't get luxury food but which is more fulfilled?
		
Click to expand...

great post, completely agree. 

It seems by this thread that farmers fall into two categories, those who are too small and unviable, and those large factory farms. By definition we fall into the latter, but instead of recognising that a lot us expand and can widley give our livestock the conditions they need we are criticised. This forums view on farming often angers me because a lot of people on here are completely clueless about farming. I think the OPs question has been answered by a few very well, and this thread has just turned into a very sour debate.


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## misterjinglejay (31 March 2013)

I, shamefully, know nothing about farming, but it seems like a very hard and thankless task, especially with consumers demanding cheaper food, and the terrible winter we've had. I always try and buy local, from our very well stocked farm shop, but the big supermarkets seem to be screwing you all to the wall!

I. for one, would like to say thank you to all the farmers who work, tirelessly, to provide our food.


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## Vicki1986 (31 March 2013)

Some points on this post beggars belief !

Perhaps some should try living on a working farm, especially in these extreme weathers, working long days, no holiday,no Christmas break, no lie in, no income if weathers poor and crops fail, no guaranteed salary at the end of the month., no sick pay and not much money earnt, no time to sit on forums debating how others are doing it wrong...

I certainly could not do it and respect those who do!

Farmers livestock is their livelihood, they don't want to see it killed off by the snow just as much as the people sitting watching it on the tv!  

It's very easy to sit on the fence pointing out others wrongs, but I feel unless you are in the situation yourself and know all the variables, you are hard placed to make a valid point.  I find it quite an ugly human trait, that whilsts others are facing some of the most challenging times in their lives, others seem to feel (mostly with no justification) that they could do better when in reality most could not.


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## Suelin (31 March 2013)

Vicki1986 said:



			Some points on this post beggars belief !

Perhaps some should try living on a working farm, especially in these extreme weathers, working long days, no holiday,no Christmas break, no lie in, no income if weathers poor and crops fail, no guaranteed salary at the end of the month., no sick pay and not much money earnt, no time to sit on forums debating how others are doing it wrong...

I certainly could not do it and respect those who do!

Farmers livestock is their livelihood, they don't want to see it killed off by the snow just as much as the people sitting watching it on the tv!  

It's very easy to sit on the fence pointing out others wrongs, but I feel unless you are in the situation yourself and know all the variables, you are hard placed to make a valid point.  I find it quite an ugly human trait, that whilsts others are facing some of the most challenging times in their lives, others seem to feel (mostly with no justification) that they could do better when in reality most could not.
		
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Marvelous post, very good points made.


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## Alec Swan (31 March 2013)

misterjay said:



			I, shamefully, know nothing about farming, but it seems like a very hard and thankless task, .......
		
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There's no need to feel shame,  as you've been open.  There are others,  who also know nothing,  but claim that they do,  and lecture! 

I wouldn't agree with you that it's a thankless task.  Most of those who keep livestock,  struggle,  but there are those moments which can lift us.  We pull a live but struggling lamb,  or calf,  from its mother,  and against the odds,  it's up and survives.  We take a puppy,  on a summer's evening,  and put it round a group of shearling ewes,  and we watch the puppy find out,  for itself,  the best way forward.  We present lambs in a market,  and the buyer sidles up to us and asks if we have any more,  like that!  We have a neighbour call in,  just to see how we are,  and we show them,  with justifiable pride,  our stock.  We have children (or grandchildren!) getting under our feet and asking to be able to help,  our own enthusiasm being contagious.

There are rewards,  but few that will please our bank managers!

Alec.


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## BronsonNutter (31 March 2013)

amymay said:



			That wasn't the original question bronsonnutter.
		
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amymay said:



			Why did farmers leave stock on the land, rather than bring them in when the heavy snow started?
		
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BronsonNutter said:



			PS. In response to the original question - *why don't we just keep the sheep inside? *Because if the farmer put his *entire flock inside at once*, he'd probably be breaking DEFRA's welfare guidance about minimum space per sheep  As well as increasing the risk of crushing newborn lambs, disease, over heating etc. 

The vast majority of farms I've been to have one barn for lambing, that is just big enough for a certain proportion of the flock. As so many go out with lambs, so many more who are due to lamb come in. It works most of the time, but unfortunately not this year 

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Sorry, I am confused as to that was not a response to the original question...


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## Amymay (31 March 2013)

You stated that the original question was 'why dont we just keep the sheep inside', bronsonnutter.  Which it wasn't.


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## BronsonNutter (31 March 2013)

amymay said:



			You stated that the original question was 'why dont we just keep the sheep inside', bronsonnutter.  Which it wasn't.
		
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You're asking why they were left out on the field! Where would you like us to put them, if not inside?

ETA: If you read my entire answer, you'd have an explanation as to why farmers left the stock on the land when the snow started. I thought it would pretty obvious that I was paraphrasing your question


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## Dobiegirl (31 March 2013)

BronsonNutter said:



			You're asking why they were left out on the field! Where would you like us to put them, if not inside?

ETA: If you read my entire answer, you'd have an explanation as to why farmers left the stock on the land when the snow started. I thought it would pretty obvious that I was paraphrasing your question 

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I for one think youve answered everything, Ive kept off this thread  apart from one comment, it just makes me so mad. 

Next time anyone knocking the majority of farmers wants to rent a spare field or buy the odd bale of hay I hope you wont be hyprocrites and rent  or buy off a farmer


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## monkeybum13 (31 March 2013)

I cannot believe some of the things I have read on this thread, I never knew people could really be that ignorant.


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## wildwest (31 March 2013)

a post that should never have been started :{ as if the poor farmers havent enough to cope with without answering stupid questions.


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## bonny (31 March 2013)

wildwest said:



			a post that should never have been started :{ as if the poor farmers havent enough to cope with without answering stupid questions.
		
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Bit harsh....I think people can ask whatever they like plus it was an academic question really as I don't suppose anyone in the middle of lambing with lots of snow would have the time or the inclination to be on a horse forum answering questions......


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## Alec Swan (31 March 2013)

Not harsh,  Bonny,  if you don the tunic,  then you must face the arrows.  Sorry,  but that's a fact of life.

Alec.


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## bonny (31 March 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			Not harsh,  Bonny,  if you don the tunic,  then you must face the arrows.  Sorry,  but that's a fact of life.

Alec.
		
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I explained why I thought it was harsh and it's not for you or anyone else to decide what questions people can ask.....I take it you don't believe in free speech ?


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## Alec Swan (31 March 2013)

bonny said:



			I explained why I thought it was harsh and it's not for you or anyone else to decide what questions people can ask.....I take it you don't believe in free speech ?
		
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Not at all,  I agree with you,  I believe in both freedom of speech,  and thought,  BUT,  I'll tell you again,  Don the suit...... 

You must face the slings and arrows,  as do the rest of us.  If you can't cope with criticism,  then step to one side. 

Alec.


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## Bertieb123 (31 March 2013)

bonny said:



			Bit harsh....I think people can ask whatever they like plus it was an academic question really as I don't suppose anyone in the middle of lambing with lots of snow would have the time or the inclination to be on a horse forum answering questions......
		
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You got it in one bonny! Was an "academic question" and you don't seem to like the 'practical' Posts. And YES some of us have answered and YES we have been working in the snow helping our neighbours and yes some of us have answered on a horse forum, God we must be sad and what does that make you?


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## bonny (31 March 2013)

Bertieb123 said:



			You got it in one bonny! Was an "academic question" and you don't seem to like the 'practical' Posts. And YES some of us have answered and YES we have been working in the snow helping our neighbours and yes some of us have answered on a horse forum, God we must be sad and what does that make you?
		
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Did you actually read the thread or just come on to be rude ? go back to the first page and see the 2nd reply to the original question.....then let me know what you think ?


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## Bertieb123 (31 March 2013)

bonny said:



			Did you actually read the thread or just come on to be rude ? go back to the first page and see the 2nd reply to the original question.....then let me know what you think ?
		
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No I not being rude, just read your previous post.............. yes I been lambing and yes I have time to answer, but some of your posts Yes confused. And no I don't have time to read the first page etc I am only reading what I see now (which I presume many do).


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## Amymay (31 March 2013)

What exactly was stupid about the question wildwest?


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## justabob (31 March 2013)

It was actually a good question to ask, amymay, it has answered your question and hopefully educated others who clearly have no clue about the practicalities of farming.


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## Amymay (31 March 2013)

Yes, its more than answered my question justabob. And has been a very interesting read.


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