# done to death but advice needed-agrresive or trying it on?



## shoegal22 (31 August 2015)

Hi all, after a year of searching I thought i'd found my perfect boy. Veteran arab, beautiful. He's on long term loan at my private yard with my daughters pony.
To cut a long story short, he came to me after trying him at his yard, all good, and settled well with my welsh x and companion cob. Straight in at the bottom of the pecking order and was out working the next day-being a dream. Two weeks in his attitude changed like a switch, came in as usual and as soon as I had him tied he was trying to bite, ears back and cow kicking. I was on my own so unfortunately he got the better of me, as after a feeble groom and re rug he was back out for the night. This has now been the pattern for the last three weeks. Riding he has been fine but due to a holiday he hasn't been ridden for a week and now the thought of getting him ready to ride and tacking him up is stressing me out. Any advice? To break it down:
*borrowe companion has gone and he might be trying for top spot
*owner hss been out witnessed behaviour and was shocked,tried it a bit for her but it didn't last long
*vet checked for ulcers, pain, farrier check and saddle etc so NOT PAIN
*fine for everyone else except me! 
ideas and advice please-desperate to build a great relationship with this lovely horse


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## tabithakat64 (31 August 2015)

You need to get an instructor/someone very experienced to watch you handle him and give you advice.

New horses will often test the boundaries when they move home. You taught yours if he tries to bite and kick then he doesn't get ridden and gets to go back out to the field.

I've known a couple of horses who've learnt this trick. They don't try anything with someone confident who doesn't take any nonsense.

One of mine was horrible and would bite and kick given half a chance. We would tie him up very short so he couldn't bite any attempts were met with a stern no and swiftly timed smack with a crop if he did make contact. Good behaviour was rewarded with praise and a polo and we never gave in to him. He leant that good behaviour was easier in a couple of weeks but would still try it on with new people.

I would get experienced help and get him scoped for ulcers if you haven't already done so as they could be causing your boys bad behaviour.


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## shoegal22 (31 August 2015)

thanks tabithakat64, his owner was shocked st his behaviour and gave me some tips, but its awkward being on my own. I am riding him tomorrow, just a nice hack (I hope!) and try and remind him of the fact that good behaviour results in nice things. Did you get back your horses respect? Im not sure what point to say "ok he's getting dangerous and we,re not gonna gel" or to think "ok mister, you are just gonna have to learn that Im boss and thats that"


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## Pearlsasinger (31 August 2015)

When he is tied up, can he get to nibble at some hay?  If not, that would be my first suggestion.  I guess he has brought his tack with him,are you absolutely certain that it all fits?  Check that the browband is not too short.  Have you stripped the tack down to clean it?  Are you sure that you put all back together exactly as it was?  It seems odd that the behaviour started suddenly, if it was because of anything other than pain, I would expect it to come on gradually and increase if he got away with it.

My mare was sold to me as a biter, the previous owner always tied her up short and put a flash bridle on quickly when tacking up.  I bought her with tack and realised when I got her home that the browband was too short.  I also had to retrain her to have her saddle and rugs on without getting upset.  I feed her an ulcer-friendly diet.  She still sometimes pulls a face but has NEVER bitten me in the 4 1/2 yrs I have owned her.
She was aso very wary of having 2 people in the stable with her, we think that was because she was expecting the 2nd person to hit her if she threatened to bite.  Far better IMO to work out why the horse is threatening/what it is trying to tell you.


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## Barnacle (1 September 2015)

If he's fine for everyone else, you are the problem. I think you sound like you may not be coming across assertive enough. Do you lunge or free school him at all? Try it if not. That'll give him a better idea of which way around things are meant to be and you should get a feel for asking him to do what you want. He doesn't sound dangerous except for you - so you need to figure out what about your behaviour requires adjustment and go from there. I would also suggest finding someone experienced who can watch you, tell you what to do and make you do it!


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## shoegal22 (1 September 2015)

Oh yes, definitely me! Somewhere at some point he has seen something that has led him to think 'I'm in charge' or perhaps 'I'm not safe with her', nothing can be pin pointed though to me at the mo. 
I can 90% rule out pain bar a fully body scan! Everything has been checked as it was my first instinct. 
I am loathed to give him hay when doing the things a 16 year old knows he needs to do... Does that make sense? Standing and being respectful when grooming, feet wtc is IMO essential for both my safety and the horses. Mixed signals if I now leave a hat net up as his s*****g about has resulted in a tasty treat.
I think I will try the free school/ lunging. I'm hoping my instructor Is coming this weekend. A few other 'experienced' people have said the same thing- let him no your the boss! I am not one for getting into a fight wit a horse, although I'm standing my ground and giving a slap on his belly if he try's to kick, or he'll meet my elbow if he trys to bite. Unfortunately being on your own ( although lots of upsides, rent etc) can have its downfalls, no one around to call on. I've considered moving him, but what use will upsetting him again and having mixed signals from different handlers... Should have said, same owner since 3 before he came to me and he was extremely well cared for.


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## JillA (1 September 2015)

Get your local Intelligent Horsemanship Recommended Associate (RA) out http://www.intelligenthorsemanship.co.uk/specialist-horse-training.html  They are trained to a standard, accredited and usually not all that expensive. They will assess how you are with him and vice versa, start showing you how to deal with the problem and give you exercises to continue doing before they return (if they think you need it) to continue the good work. Usually not that difficult to turn around but can be changed by some fairly subtle body language which he understands..


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## fburton (1 September 2015)

shoegal22 said:



			A few other 'experienced' people have said the same thing- let him no your the boss!
		
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I note you put 'experienced' in quotes. Imo, this is unhelpful advice. Many horses don't respond well to being antagonized and some fight back. You're right to be wary of getting into a fight.


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## Goldenstar (1 September 2015)

So how was he when they handled him at the vets when they scoped him for ulcers .


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## Dry Rot (1 September 2015)

Something is upsetting him for sure. I've heard a few stories about aggressive horses and sometimes they do seem a puzzle. What we sometimes forget is that animals don't necessarily think in the same reasoned patterns that we humans do. That may sound obvious, but it's not! Animals cope with fear by instinct, not logic.

We were working on a yearling here and she was being a bit tetchy about having her feet lifted. Not bad, just objecting. Then someone I would call a 'professional' turned up and demonstrated the "proper" way to do it. The yearling continued to object and the pro made zero progress, so after five minutes he just stopped saying, "Well, if you do that every day for a week, she'll be fine". She wasn't! I've never seen a youngster kick like that and she meant it! I think she continued trying a rapid succession of lethal kicks in response to gentle stroking with a long stick for at least 30 minutes before we finally gave up! 

We resumed training a week later, starting by gentling grooming the bits we could get at without being killed. She did slowly settled down and is now fine with having her feet lifted and in fact a total sweetie! Work that one out. My own thoughts are that she was kicking in self defence against what she perceived as a threat. We just needed to get across to her that we were not trying to hurt her and having feet/legs touched was not an attack. The age old issue of trust.

I suspect that is the issue here. The OP's body language is, to her horse, unusual and threatening -- as well it might be when a nervous person is attempting to handle a horse she does not fully trust. The hay net is not a reward for bad behaviour but a distraction. Herbivores will often graze to reduce stress. It's what the behaviourists call a displacement activity. Sometimes it pays to sit down and try to think like a horse.

I think the problem here is for the OP to try to convince the horse that she is not a threat but a friend. That doesn't mean give in to softness. Cerainly a loud shout and a smack for attempting to bite, but it should not come to that. Watch for subtle body language and forestall aggressive behaviour with reassurance, not a warning. Yes, I realise now that we made mistakes with lifting the yearling's feet, but we learnt from it. My impression is that horses are not naturally aggressive and mostly react when they feel threatened. Attempting to correct what we humans see as bad behaviour can easily be interpretted by the horse as an attack. 

I haven't explained that very well but it has helped me clear my own thoughts on the subject by putting it in writing. I probably ought to hit 'Cancel" now, rather than 'Post"!


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## Pinkvboots (1 September 2015)

shoegal22 said:



			Oh yes, definitely me! Somewhere at some point he has seen something that has led him to think 'I'm in charge' or perhaps 'I'm not safe with her', nothing can be pin pointed though to me at the mo. 
I can 90% rule out pain bar a fully body scan! Everything has been checked as it was my first instinct. 
I am loathed to give him hay when doing the things a 16 year old knows he needs to do... Does that make sense? Standing and being respectful when grooming, feet wtc is IMO essential for both my safety and the horses. Mixed signals if I now leave a hat net up as his s*****g about has resulted in a tasty treat.
I think I will try the free school/ lunging. I'm hoping my instructor Is coming this weekend. A few other 'experienced' people have said the same thing- let him no your the boss! I am not one for getting into a fight wit a horse, although I'm standing my ground and giving a slap on his belly if he try's to kick, or he'll meet my elbow if he trys to bite. Unfortunately being on your own ( although lots of upsides, rent etc) can have its downfalls, no one around to call on. I've considered moving him, but what use will upsetting him again and having mixed signals from different handlers... Should have said, same owner since 3 before he came to me and he was extremely well cared for.
		
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You say you don't want to give him hay when he comes in, is he living out? Is there plenty of grass ? Because if his hungry when his brought in he will be upset, I have seen it so many times on yards where people bring there horses in and tie them up with nothing and they are hungry, and then they wonder why they won't stand still.

Also Arabs are very clever I know I have two they often don't cope well with change and can get very attached to there owners and carers, maybe he is feeling a bit insecure about being moved now he is no longer with someone he knows and trusts.


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## fburton (1 September 2015)

Dry Rot said:



			I probably ought to hit 'Cancel" now, rather than 'Post"!

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I'm very glad you didn't, DR!


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## paddi22 (1 September 2015)

the horse won't associate the lack of a haynet with punishment for its bad behaviour at all. They don't think like that. It's better to tie them up with something, so they are distracted and can nibble. If horse is ok with other people than the issue is you. I was in the same boat with a particular horse who was difficult to handle and unnerved me, and I worked with a NH guy who was amazing. One session in groundwork sorted out the issues. He could see clearly I wasn't doing basic stuff like handling properly and leading correctly.  We got it sorted out very quickly and once the basics were there the issues went. I'd had horses for over 30 years and I just hadn't realised my body language was different with this particular one!


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## MotherOfChickens (1 September 2015)

Dry Rot said:



			Something is upsetting him for sure. I've heard a few stories about aggressive horses and sometimes they do seem a puzzle. What we sometimes forget is that animals don't necessarily think in the same reasoned patterns that we humans do. That may sound obvious, but it's not! Animals cope with fear by instinct, not logic.

We were working on a yearling here and she was being a bit tetchy about having her feet lifted. Not bad, just objecting. Then someone I would call a 'professional' turned up and demonstrated the "proper" way to do it. The yearling continued to object and the pro made zero progress, so after five minutes he just stopped saying, "Well, if you do that every day for a week, she'll be fine". She wasn't! I've never seen a youngster kick like that and she meant it! I think she continued trying a rapid succession of lethal kicks in response to gentle stroking with a long stick for at least 30 minutes before we finally gave up! 

We resumed training a week later, starting by gentling grooming the bits we could get at without being killed. She did slowly settled down and is now fine with having her feet lifted and in fact a total sweetie! Work that one out. My own thoughts are that she was kicking in self defence against what she perceived as a threat. We just needed to get across to her that we were not trying to hurt her and having feet/legs touched was not an attack. The age old issue of trust.

I suspect that is the issue here. The OP's body language is, to her horse, unusual and threatening -- as well it might be when a nervous person is attempting to handle a horse she does not fully trust. The hay net is not a reward for bad behaviour but a distraction. Herbivores will often graze to reduce stress. It's what the behaviourists call a displacement activity. Sometimes it pays to sit down and try to think like a horse.

I think the problem here is for the OP to try to convince the horse that she is not a threat but a friend. That doesn't mean give in to softness. Cerainly a loud shout and a smack for attempting to bite, but it should not come to that. Watch for subtle body language and forestall aggressive behaviour with reassurance, not a warning. Yes, I realise now that we made mistakes with lifting the yearling's feet, but we learnt from it. My impression is that horses are not naturally aggressive and mostly react when they feel threatened. Attempting to correct what we humans see as bad behaviour can easily be interpretted by the horse as an attack. 

I haven't explained that very well but it has helped me clear my own thoughts on the subject by putting it in writing. I probably ought to hit 'Cancel" now, rather than 'Post"!

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this is a really good post  

OP your horse may be 'trying it on' but IME, horses rarely do this, its not worth their while. Now they might seem like they are doing it, if they don't trust the handler for whatever reason and feel like they need to be in charge, or because body language etc is off or discomfort, or diet (my old horse was a souk, but give him alfalfa and you couldn't get near him for biting)-any number of reasons. There are cues that can tell you if behaviour pain, fear or general high spirits. From my own horses I know they get fractious if hungry or cold. 
You say your horse is a veteran, was he with his last owner for long?


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## shoegal22 (1 September 2015)

Dry Rot said:



			Something is upsetting him for sure. I've heard a few stories about aggressive horses and sometimes they do seem a puzzle. What we sometimes forget is that animals don't necessarily think in the same reasoned patterns that we humans do. That may sound obvious, but it's not! Animals cope with fear by instinct, not logic.

We were working on a yearling here and she was being a bit tetchy about having her feet lifted. Not bad, just objecting. Then someone I would call a 'professional' turned up and demonstrated the "proper" way to do it. The yearling continued to object and the pro made zero progress, so after five minutes he just stopped saying, "Well, if you do that every day for a week, she'll be fine". She wasn't! I've never seen a youngster kick like that and she meant it! I think she continued trying a rapid succession of lethal kicks in response to gentle stroking with a long stick for at least 30 minutes before we finally gave up! 

We resumed training a week later, starting by gentling grooming the bits we could get at without being killed. She did slowly settled down and is now fine with having her feet lifted and in fact a total sweetie! Work that one out. My own thoughts are that she was kicking in self defence against what she perceived as a threat. We just needed to get across to her that we were not trying to hurt her and having feet/legs touched was not an attack. The age old issue of trust.

I suspect that is the issue here. The OP's body language is, to her horse, unusual and threatening -- as well it might be when a nervous person is attempting to handle a horse she does not fully trust. The hay net is not a reward for bad behaviour but a distraction. Herbivores will often graze to reduce stress. It's what the behaviourists call a displacement activity. Sometimes it pays to sit down and try to think like a horse.

I think the problem here is for the OP to try to convince the horse that she is not a threat but a friend. That doesn't mean give in to softness. Cerainly a loud shout and a smack for attempting to bite, but it should not come to that. Watch for subtle body language and forestall aggressive behaviour with reassurance, not a warning. Yes, I realise now that we made mistakes with lifting the yearling's feet, but we learnt from it. My impression is that horses are not naturally aggressive and mostly react when they feel threatened. Attempting to correct what we humans see as bad behaviour can easily be interpretted by the horse as an attack. 

I haven't explained that very well but it has helped me clear my own thoughts on the subject by putting it in writing. I probably ought to hit 'Cancel" now, rather than 'Post"!

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No this makes absolute sense! It's definitely me! My friend who is not involved tacked him up three days ago and groomed him and he stood dozing! When I went near him the cow kicking and trying to bite started! He was lovely at first and it was like a trigger. I have suspicions but they may sound daft:
* about two weeks ago on a really hot day he nipped me when I was grooming him. He was being fine but on his 4th foot he nipped my arm, not hard and it took me a couple of seconds to realise what had happened. He looked petrified so I made a fuss of him ( I no I no, shoot me now!) rugged him later and he was fine
* day after his owner visited him and that afternoon his behaviour switched
* also that day he moved up the pecking order, he stood his ground with the companion horse I was borrowing until he arrived and he moved up a rank, she did not bother him again and was very submissive. She went home a few days ago. Was he trying to get above me.
*discussuon with his vet said they felt it was uneccesary to scope for ulcers as his diet isn't high in grain, he is fine with other people doing girth etc and  isn't shoeih any resistance when riding. The procedure isn't the nicest- I know he would hate being starved, let alone a tube up his nostril! I will however insist if things do not improve
Could any of these cause a quick change? I have asked a behaviour specialist to come out and hoping to have an appointment this week.
Oh and today, after a change of tactic, fiancé ( non- horsey) at his head to help prevent biting, we managed after initial kicking out to clean all four feet and brush his tail! Rewards, then saddle on slowly but in without lifting his foot! After riding him I popped his rug on and he was fine! So I like the idea of reassurance as I'm now quite good at reading his signs, and rewarding the good ( albeit normal!) behaviour. 
Still petrified of the back feet tho!


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## shoegal22 (1 September 2015)

Yes, he has been with his owner since he was 3, he's now 16. Lovely 5*home. It's probably a shock to come to my little farm with my thewell pony, big ol'cob and various noisy things like dogs, children, chickens. None of it fazed him and his initial settling in period was brilliant! There is plenty of food and his is on a small feed of calm+condition and hi fi in the evening as was his routine at home. Out 24/7 although I bring them in for dinner. No extra hay currently as still so much grass. He's rugged at night. 
I really appreciate everyone's advice. I no it's something I'm doing, and trying to replicate the owner is hard- I think I'm doing the right thing but clearly not. I'm glad there has been situations where you guys have had similar probs. I'm hoping the groundwork session will help. 
It's tough, Ive had quirky horses in the past and as I've expected it I suppose my body language was like "stop your nonsense" where his came from
Both ends in a day it has really knocked my confidence with him &#128542;


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## Pearlsasinger (1 September 2015)

It sounds as if you have approached him with a "You WILL do what I want" attitude.  IME (and I have plenty) the best way to approach a horse is to encourage it to want to work with you and to make it easy for it to do so.
Why should a 16 yr old horse stand tied up with nothing to do while someone unfamiliar, with threatening body language, pokes and prods him?

Work *with* the horse, make it easy and pleasant for him to do the right thing, rather than thinking of him as an enemy to be vanquished, or a subordinate to be dominated and you will both enjoy the experience far more.

I have to say, if this were my horse, it would be going home asap.  I prefer people to treat my horses kindly, not spoil them or bully them.


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## Barnacle (2 September 2015)

shoegal22 said:



			Oh yes, definitely me! Somewhere at some point he has seen something that has led him to think 'I'm in charge' or perhaps 'I'm not safe with her', nothing can be pin pointed though to me at the mo. 
I can 90% rule out pain bar a fully body scan! Everything has been checked as it was my first instinct. 
I am loathed to give him hay when doing the things a 16 year old knows he needs to do... Does that make sense? Standing and being respectful when grooming, feet wtc is IMO essential for both my safety and the horses. Mixed signals if I now leave a hat net up as his s*****g about has resulted in a tasty treat.
I think I will try the free school/ lunging. I'm hoping my instructor Is coming this weekend. A few other 'experienced' people have said the same thing- let him no your the boss! I am not one for getting into a fight wit a horse, although I'm standing my ground and giving a slap on his belly if he try's to kick, or he'll meet my elbow if he trys to bite. Unfortunately being on your own ( although lots of upsides, rent etc) can have its downfalls, no one around to call on. I've considered moving him, but what use will upsetting him again and having mixed signals from different handlers... Should have said, same owner since 3 before he came to me and he was extremely well cared for.
		
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I personally wouldn't hit or elbow the horse. I would carry a whip and use the whip in the air (not near his head) or on the ground as a 'warning'. A lot of people have suggested fear as a reason for this behaviour. If the horse is fine with everyone else, including strangers, it's obviously not fear unless you, specifically, have frightened it. 

I also keep finding myself reminding people that horses are very frequently aggressive towards each other and aggression need not come from fear. Horses telling each other to move away from the nice patch of grass or settling some hierarchical issue are acting aggressively. It's not a big deal between horses so we perhaps don't notice it much but when it's directed at us, it's more of an issue. I see absolutely no reason to presume the horse is fearful when in fact he might be mildly annoyed by your 'interference' with his life. Totally natural for him to feel that way and more likely, given that he was fine with a stranger (your friend) with whom he won't have established an 'understanding' yet. But just as he won't kick at the horse above him in the hierarchy when she says "move off my patch", so he shouldn't kick you when you ask him to do something.

Giving him a haynet to distract him and rewarding good behaviour are certainly worthwhile IMO. You might, if nothing else, establish a pleasant routine whereby he forgets about telling you to leave him alone... But I hope you get something a bit more fundamental from your groundwork session. Let us know how it goes!


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## shoegal22 (2 September 2015)

I have to say, if this were my horse, it would be going home asap.  I prefer people to treat my horses kindly, not spoil them or bully them.[/QUOTE]

Thank you ^^ but I would not say I am a bully / spoil them ( but misunderstood on that one TBH). First course of action was to contact his owner to seek her advice and she came the next day, she watched and was shocked as it was out of character, she showed me how she would deal with it and I have followed suit. I treat my horses extremely kindly, as I said previous quirky horses have meant I was prepared, prepared for that kick or bite or nap etc so we avoided it through slow progression of making the horse feel comfortable about what was happening, not beating the living daylights out of them or turbo feeding polos with one hand while doing the feet with the other.
All animals in my care are show kindness, respect and love - although various members disagree with horses understanding that emotion- it's difficukt as an animal lover not to demonstrate that emotion. 
I feel through the posts that have hugely helped that at some point my body language has changed, causing him to fear/ dominate while on the ground. This is what needs to be worked on.


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## MotherOfChickens (2 September 2015)

shoegal22 said:



			Yes, he has been with his owner since he was 3, he's now 16. Lovely 5*home. It's probably a shock to come to my little farm with my thewell pony, big ol'cob and various noisy things like dogs, children, chickens. None of it fazed him and his initial settling in period was brilliant! There is plenty of food and his is on a small feed of calm+condition and hi fi in the evening as was his routine at home. Out 24/7 although I bring them in for dinner. No extra hay currently as still so much grass. He's rugged at night. 
I really appreciate everyone's advice. I no it's something I'm doing, and trying to replicate the owner is hard- I think I'm doing the right thing but clearly not. I'm glad there has been situations where you guys have had similar probs. I'm hoping the groundwork session will help. 
It's tough, Ive had quirky horses in the past and as I've expected it I suppose my body language was like "stop your nonsense" where his came from
Both ends in a day it has really knocked my confidence with him &#65533;&#65533;
		
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can the owner not come round and help you more? The more you get scared/nervous around him, the worse your body language will get and the situation may get worse. Thirteen years of being handled by one person and then a new one could equal a lot of change.  Plus, it has to be said, what one handler finds acceptable behaviour, another may find intolerable so a bit of time accustoming yourself to what his owner does would be worthwhile.As others have said, don't demonize him for showing unwanted behaviour, he's a horse and is reacting-it's not personal, correct it/address it and move on.

Some horses are more socially ambitious than others and upsets in the herd can lead to changes in behaviour to the handler but do not get hung up on whether he's trying to 'be above you' or not. If your handling of him is consistent and fair he'll get to know whats acceptable with you regardless of what happens in the paddock.


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## Pinkvboots (2 September 2015)

It must be such a change for him his been at the same home a long time, I have had one of my Arabs since he was 2 his now 11 he recently had to stay at the vets overnight, they put him in a huge stable and then couldn't catch him so they had to come and get me from the waiting room to get a headcollar on him, the nurse said he was standing in the corner facing the wall unil he heard my voice then he turned round and came to the door, I know if I sold him the new owners would have a bit of a nightmare for a while, my guess is this horse is feeling a bit insecure and lost I think with a bit of time he will settle and once he trusts you he will be fine.


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## Cortez (2 September 2015)

Pearlsasinger said:



			Why should a 16 yr old horse stand tied up with nothing to do while someone unfamiliar, with threatening body language, pokes and prods him?
		
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Because that is what is required of a mannerly horse, actually. Tying up for however long is needed and doing as asked is just good manners, no hay nets or other inducements need be applied.


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## tabithakat64 (2 September 2015)

shoegal22 said:



			thanks tabithakat64, his owner was shocked st his behaviour and gave me some tips, but its awkward being on my own. I am riding him tomorrow, just a nice hack (I hope!) and try and remind him of the fact that good behaviour results in nice things. Did you get back your horses respect? Im not sure what point to say "ok he's getting dangerous and we,re not gonna gel" or to think "ok mister, you are just gonna have to learn that Im boss and thats that"
		
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It was never that he didn't respect me, upon further investigation he'd had an abusive past and then been allowed to get away with lots of behaviour including biting and kicking when being tacked up that isn't acceptable. 
Once he had clear boundaries he was 99% fine with me but would try 'naughty' behaviour with new people especially those who lacked confidence as this is obvious in a persons body language or if I was having an off day as he could read it in my body language.

He was never beaten but would receive a tap of the crop on the shoulder or it would be used on my boot as the noise deterred him.  Giving a polo as praise for acceptable behaviour worked well as he was extremely food motivated having been starved as a youngster. The praise alone was eventually enough.


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## tabithakat64 (2 September 2015)

Cortez said:



			Because that is what is required of a mannerly horse, actually. Tying up for however long is needed and doing as asked is just good manners, no hay nets or other inducements need be applied.
		
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Umm this, I expect any horse to be able to be safely handled, tied up and tacked up.


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## Pearlsasinger (2 September 2015)

tabithakat64 said:



			Umm this, I expect any horse to be able to be safely handled, tied up and tacked up.
		
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So do I but if it doesn't, getting cross won't help anything, while distracting it with a haynet or similar might well make a difference.
In fact, I don't tie my horses, I expect them to stand still gto be groomed/tacked up without being tied p and they do becasue they know what I expect but if I get a new one that doesn't understand my expectations, I work with them until they do.  I don't try to force them into behaving the way I want them to 'becasue they should do it'.


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## Cortez (2 September 2015)

Pearlsasinger said:



			So do I but if it doesn't, getting cross won't help anything, while distracting it with a haynet or similar might well make a difference.
In fact, I don't tie my horses, I expect them to stand still gto be groomed/tacked up without being tied p and they do becasue they know what I expect but if I get a new one that doesn't understand my expectations, I work with them until they do.  I don't try to force them into behaving the way I want them to 'becasue they should do it'.
		
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What do you do at a show, or in any other situation that requires a horse to stand tied then?


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## Pearlsasinger (2 September 2015)

Of course, in a situation where it is imperative that the horse is tied, such as on the wagon, the hroses all tie BUT they have been educated to do so.  My horses are also trained to groundtie, although I would only do that at home.  I certainly do not routinely tie up in the stable and have no need to becasue they all stand still while being groomed etc.  
However, my original point was that there is no reason to expect a horse to tie up just becasue it it is 16.  If it has been in the same home for many years, as the one in OP has, it may not be used to being tied up to be groomed etc and as it is obviously uncomfrtable in the situation, a haynet or similar, would be useful to distract it and allow the loaner to work with it in greater safety.
I really dislike the attitude of "It must do it because I say so", rather than setting the horse up to succeed by providing it with something simple like a haynet.


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## Gixxernic (3 September 2015)

Sounds like he doesnt yet trust you fully, it can take some time and as i have been in the same boat as you i have experience of this, i bought a mare, had her for 5 weeks, checked everything, no pain, she was biting me and my son, rearing to and from the field and generally just being a complete idiot, i had tried her 3 times beforehand, i put it doen to settling down issues, except i just wasn't prepared to put up with it any longer , i asked the previous owner to take her back . Thankfully she did and she reared the first day and since then has been a complete angel. I had done join up etc with her and nothing made a difference. 

But thats not to say it will be the same for you, try join up, try a calmer just to take the edge off the behaviour? Its worth a try..  I think he may just be testing you and if he is stick at it and show him who is boss &#128516;


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## fburton (3 September 2015)

Gixxernic said:



			I think he may just be testing you and if he is stick at it and show him who is boss &#55357;&#56836;
		
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What is the best way to show a horse you are boss? What would be the most appropriate way in this situation?


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## Gixxernic (3 September 2015)

At any attempt of biting smack his neck and firmly tell him no! Consistently doing this he will soon learn..  Have u tried join up?


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## Horsemanship (4 September 2015)

You probably need some lessons in old fashioned Horsemanship? I get a lot of horses given, free, because of dangerous behavior and they ALL turn into very loving, happy people within a couple of weeks. You have to find the reason for the behavior and act on it. It may be pain, fear of pain, memory of pain, fear itself or total lack of respect for you. It is doubtful, due to what you say, to be fear itself.

Steps to take:
Swap your grooming brush for a much softer one. I had a horse given once who would kill anyone who went near when he was tied up. His problem was sensitive skin, poor lad, and a brush with too coarse a bristle on it. Changed to a very soft one and he was a sweetie in a couple of days and sold to a novice within the week, who still owns him, 8 years later.
If you are not riding in the same saddle as his old owner, then suspect the saddle - no matter what a 'fitter' tells you. Your horse is the ONLY one who can tell you if it is comfortable or not.
If you can 100% rule out PAIN, then you must get a complete personality change as far as this horse is concerned, and grow horns. I don't mean that you are at all cruel, but you have to make the horse respect you by demanding his co-operation, using reward and relief when he does the right thing and being 100% consistent with your rules, - rules that must be FAIR in his eyes.

Good luck. xx


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## Gixxernic (4 September 2015)

Very good advice there! &#55357;&#56396;&#55356;&#57339;


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## shoegal22 (4 September 2015)

ive contacted a couple of equine behaviourisists but yet to be able to pin one down for an appointment as this I think is the way forward and prob to give me some confidence! It's 99% not pain! I think I said everything bar a full body scan and ulcer scope has been done. I use his original grooming kit, it's his original tack... Everything! I've tried the same tact as his owner who within minutes had calmed he behaviour but with me it's like he would fight till I gave up. I'm currently using a reward / discipline approach upon his owners advice, so attempt to bite or kick is given a swift smack on shoulder ( he will try to kick again so gets told again then gives up unless really tetchy and will go for a third!) and told no... The rest of the time is lots of stroking and 'Good boys' after each foot an inch of carrot after standing up the same and tacking up/ rigging the same. He's now added trying to refuse to come out of the stable after his feed but I'm
Not scared of getting him out- I'm only watching one end so to speak, picking out his feet im watching getting a boot and or bite! He's truly such a lovely boy, this isn't painting him in the best picture, but if he wasn't I would have admitted defeat. 
Any advice of calmers? I'd consider trying to make him a little less anxious - TIA


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## Gixxernic (4 September 2015)

I use equine America magnitude, find it good , and good value for money 19.99 for a tub that will last 6 months


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## shoegal22 (4 September 2015)

Gixxernic said:



			I use equine America magnitude, find it good , and good value for money 19.99 for a tub that will last 6 months
		
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Thank you! If I can ease his nerves and mine then it might help!


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## Barnacle (4 September 2015)

shoegal22 said:



			ive contacted a couple of equine behaviourisists but yet to be able to pin one down for an appointment as this I think is the way forward and prob to give me some confidence!
		
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Where are you located? Maybe someone can help put you in touch with someone...


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## shoegal22 (4 September 2015)

Im in kent, I'm waiting to hear back from a lady called Suzanne Halsey and I can't remember the other one without getting my email


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## JillA (4 September 2015)

Gixxernic said:



			I use equine America magnitude, find it good , and good value for money 19.99 for a tub that will last 6 months
		
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Most calmers contain magnesium oxide, which you can get off ebay, and which will only calm him if his spookiness is due to a magnesium deficiency. Worth a try IME, if it is going to help it does so in about 10 days. 
If that doesn't help, then you maybe need some strategies to enable him to cope with life. Such as standing back and letting him problem solve, and remaining calm while he does - for example I sometimes let a lead rope trail. If a horse stands on it, he has to discover all he has to do is lift his foot - panicking and stressing doesn't help, and doesn't get you rushing to his aid. Keep as calm as you can, and "allow" him, so long as serious injury isn't going to be the result. If you need to intervene, just do it calmly and without shouting. Mark Rashid never talks when he is working with horses - he reckons talking enables you to display your emotions, and emotions is the last thing you need when you are dealing with an insecure horse.


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## Gixxernic (4 September 2015)

Also top spec calmer is a herbal one! Maybe that would help? Check all feed he is on too, you can get mollichaf calmer, some non heating mixes actually make horses fizzy or tetchy, so look out for that too


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## shoegal22 (6 September 2015)

Ok, I haven't tried the calmer yet and still haven't heard from either of the professionals with a date. I have used the approach of avoiding the kicking and biting as much as I can. Yesterday I managed to do all four feet  with a cube Of carrot and lots of fuss after each one, saddled fine but he kicked off with his bridle! Head high and refusing his bit. As I only had his mouth to watch I was fine so after his buggering about and pulling. Me around I got it on. But when I put his rug on last night he was awful... Cow kicking with a venom. I told him off and it made him worse. How would you all cope with a horse that cow kicks and retaliates? I tried the whip approach last night and smacked the ground.


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## WandaMare (6 September 2015)

Personally if he was messing about when I was rugging him, I would put on his lunging tack and march him (not tensely or stroppily , just assertively) into the arena and make him work until he does something good for me. I have always found when new horses question me that lunging and long-lining is the best way to reassert my leadership. When the session is finished they get a good fuss and they tend to be easier to handle when they get a bit tired.


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## D66 (6 September 2015)

What are you feeding him?  Its possible that the move has caused stress and that has caused some internal inflammation, i.e. ulcerous changes.  although your vet is correct in saying he is not the classic candidate he could still be affected to some extent, and the nipping, difficulty tacking up and rugging suggests discomfort.
I'd feed an ulcer friendly diet and an ulcer supplement for a couple of weeks to see if it makes a difference and go from there.


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## tabithakat64 (6 September 2015)

You're doing well, keep persevering things won't change instantly. Fake being confident until you actually have it, remember to breathe when you're tacking up etc as we all tend to hold our breathe when we're anxious.
Try and get some expert help. They can actually see how your horse is behaving and we can't, all we can do is offer advice based on our own experiences.
The ulcer friendly diet is probably worth a try too.


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## RhaLoulou (6 September 2015)

Really interesting thread and opinions. Not sure if this will make sense OP but I have just got a new horse who isn't the most straight forward, and I am maintaining a neutral position, after all I don't know him too well yet and he doesn't know me. I've spent the last few weeks observing his behaviour seeing what works and what doesn't. We are all individuals, human and equine and as much as I know exactly how I want him to behave I have to find the best way for us both to get there in a peaceful manner. I am also using a trusted professional to work with.


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## Gixxernic (8 September 2015)

Id rub something really tasty on the bit , encourage him to lower his head and open his mouth, consistently do this and he will soon learn, but i agree with the long reigning , sounds like he has some issues, not with you but in general its all about routine and consistency


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## Gixxernic (8 September 2015)

I meant to add having not long ago got a new horse i too am learning lol... My hubby had a bad accident 3 weeks ago broken leg in two places, one an open break. So i hadnt ridden my boy for 17 days, being the nice placid soul he is i thought , just a nice wee quiet hack with another horse will probably be relaxing enough ...  It was for the first part, then the horse we were with started napping, so bad she got off then a van driver came flying round the corner peeping his horn! Well that was my boy, bunny hopping, rearing , trying to bronc cause he got himself so worked up . After 15 mins and nearly ending up on a car bonnet i got off too, took him 10 mins walking to calm him down, i was mad, but another 10 mins he was trying to cuddle into me walking home , took him straight into the arena and lunged him for 10 minutes and then got back on! Wanted to make sure there was no other issues. He was fine. So been hacking him and working him since, until last night we were out and behind a high hedge and a horse was doing a stampede and as soon as he could see the horse he started prancing and swishing his head but i kept a positive leg on and calmly talked to him,lots of good boys and we got through it with ease! Turns out he just needs the extra security, being an ex racer i guess . Takes just one moment like that to upset him, typical sensitive tb! Lol &#128516;


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## shoegal22 (10 September 2015)

Well, I've got a lady booked ( Suzanne Halsey ) for 3rd October. It's a way off but in the meantime im working with the advice that is working, avoiding the bad stuff as much as possible and so far so good. It's hard work but that's horses eh! 15 minutes to put a rug on! Ha! I appreciate all the advice, im so glad the consensus isn't to give up and send him back. I am willing to exhaust every avenue to build up a lovely bond with this boy. I will try the bit idea tomorrow and see how he improves, any suggestions?


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## WandaMare (10 September 2015)

Maybe leave the rugs for now, its not massively cold yet and if its undoing your hard work at building a relationship with him it might not be worth it. One of mine came to me with a big issue around rugging and it turned out that she had been rugged all summer 'to keep her clean' even in temps > 20 degrees in summer. I only rug her now if its constant rain or if temps drop below 5 degrees, saves all the hassle!


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## Pearlsasinger (10 September 2015)

If you really need to rug, for some reason, try approaching him from the 'wrong' side and adjusting the rug as much as possible from there.  Do you fold the rug into 4 and place it on him carefully, unfolding it as you go?


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## shoegal22 (11 September 2015)

I rug him as he's an older boy (16) and his owner has asked when it's chillier at night or with the heavy rain, stick his lightweight on. She is worried with him dropping too much weight going into winter. He was also like it with his fly rug. Days like yesterday were brilliant as he can go naked! I've seen a lot use the rugs to keep them clean &#128563;. I do the quartering of the rug and actually do approach from the wrong side as this is better! So there is lots of reward and praise and keeping his attention. The frustration is that this happened over night! He was perfect before. My 6 year of could have rugged him, dragged over the steps and used fiddly fingers and he would have stood dozing ( I didn't let Her obviously - new horse!) 
Ah well, hopefully he will be good to ride tonight, he hasn't been ridden since Sunday so I wonder if there will be a new 'surprsise' for me!


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## Barnacle (11 September 2015)

Sounds to me like your issue is just that you aren't persisting enough (with the rug). He sounds like he got annoyed, you said 'no', he got annoyed more - so you backed off. You can't do that. You have to say 'no' again. This horse isn't a youngster - this isn't something new to him and he was fine with it before... With the rug, I'd be inclined to take him out on a lunge line and start tossing it over him rhythmically as if desensitising until he stops reacting. I presume he isn't actually scared of it but he's evidently irritated by it. Keep tossing it over until he stops reacting - then stop. Repeat and again wait until he stops reacting, then stop tossing it over. If he's not reacting, buckle up, wait a few seconds, remove. Repeat. Give him a treat when he stops fussing as well if you want. It might take hours but he should give up before you do.

For the bit, I've had to solve this problem with a few horses a bunch of times. One problem you may have is how you hold the bridle. People have a tendency to use both hands to push the bit in the mouth - I use my left for this and my right to stabilise the head. If you don't know what I mean, you can probably find illustrations on the internet - it's conventional, just less common, and you should get into the habit of doing it that way instead. I start by standing next to them with the bridle, then put the bridle down. Then I take a polo mint and put it by their mouth so they can lick and taste it. I then put my right arm up and around their head without applying any pressure - just so it's there - doesn't even need to be touching. And lower my left hand down and towards me so that the horse bends its head not only down but also around my body (standing at the shoulder). This forces the head to lower and makes it hard for them to pull away. I give the polo and repeat. After 3-4 times, most horses are now lowering their head and putting it down and around me when I raise my right arm. Then you bring the bridle in - don't bother with the bit - just raise the bridle with your right arm but don't put the bit in (so just slip the noseband etc on but stop there). Give the polo. Repeat. Once the horse has the idea, start pushing the bit in with the polo but don't slip the ears in. Take the bridle off again. Repeat. Eventually you can put the bridle on fully with minimal effort. You'll be able to hold the head down if you need to because of where the horse is placing its head for you (down and flexed to the left) but you shouldn't have to anyway. I'd then not ride. I'd leave the horse in with a haynet for a bit and let it get the idea that a bridle on means some quiet time with hay. Don't leave him long though - maybe 5-10 mins. Then take the bridle off and maybe put a headcollar on and lunge a little instead if you want to still exercise him. I would do this for a few days, not riding in the bridle and instead letting him stand with some hay (could ride in the headcollar if you think he'll be ok...). After that, you can begin to alternate between riding and not. If you have the time, you can tack up and leave him for a bit. Then untack. Then come back and tack up and ride. And switch it around. That way he won't know when a bridle = riding and when it means quiet time and hay (you can also give treats or do something 'fun' like trick training or such with the bridle on - just don't actually use it). 

In addition, check the height of the bit in the horse's mouth when you do get it on and perhaps loosen it. Most people suggest two wrinkles but there's really no genuinely good reason for this... The looser it is, the less it'll be pulling at rest (and the more fine-tuned your cues can be). I prefer for it to just create a bulge on the lips and no more. That way it's stable and won't hit the teeth but doesn't constantly pull up and relieves the pill also. Would add I do all this untied - if the horse is tied, it's more restricted in its movement to start with and this can actually make this harder. If you are worried about doing it untied, put the headcollar around his neck so his head is free but he's less able to turn around and kick.


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## paddlingfuriously (15 September 2015)

I can't help at all, but am giving you every ounce of sympathy - I am in a fairly similar situation with my daughter's pony. He came to us with a reputation of being difficult to catch, he had been with the same very experienced owner for years, then on loan for 6 months, where the rider was scared of him, we were told because he was too fast. (I now wonder...)
He then spent a few months at a friend's yard before coming to us, so poor boy has had an unsettling time this year. 
Even with his long term owner he was hard to catch in the field. In the first week or two here I noticed him kicking out at our dog who used to always come down to the field with me. But he has now started turning his butt towards anyone approaching him in the field and increasingly frequently he kicks out with his hind legs before cantering off a few yards.
I know that this is my fault - 
I know that I haven't been dealing with this properly as I am not very experienced, I have never had a pony who has behaved like this. 
I also had my daughter and her younger siblings with me the first few times and I was just keen to get us all away from him. I did stay calm, but I did walk away and take the children out of the field.  To be honest, kicking terrifies me because I am a bit of a coward and also because of the small children - and I am sure I have let that show. The upshot being that I have lost confidence, my daughter has lost confidence and worse, is no longer able to go into the field, and consequently isn't as interested in the ponies, the pony has realised that this kind of behaviour gets him the result he wants - ie we leave him alone, and he has now started to behave threateningly in the stable too, refusing to move over, turning his bottom towards me, etc.  
I say no, calmly and firmly, but I don't know what to do when you are presented with a horses hind legs like that because I know that any bad behaviour should be attended to immediately with a growl or a gentle smack, but how do you get close enough, if you see what I mean? Obviously from now on I will tie him up in the stall so he can't do that, but it makes me so sad. Whenever I am confident enough to assert myself with him, he behaves much better, so I think it is a dominance thing with him, rather than a fear thing. I Although perhaps he thinks I am a threat - I don't know.  I think I am just showing all the wrong body language, although I am trying hard not to. I do think, having got to know him a little, that he is a clever pony who tries it on, and if it gets him what he wants, he pushes it a bit further next time.  But it is getting too frightening now. Sometimes I am shaking after getting out of his stable. 
We have two other adorable smaller ponies who have never given me a seconds problem, but the whole thing has knocked my confidence so much, I am feeling dejected about taking the whole pony thing any further altogether. 
I realise after reading this thread that I immediately need to get professional help from someone in natural horsemanship or something, as I don't think it is going to get better with me. 
In the meantime I can't let my children anywhere near him. He is immaculate once he is tacked up and being ridden - but perhaps that is just a matter of time too 
Sorry if this is a bit rambly - it is late


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## Gixxernic (15 September 2015)

Take a schooling whip with you , short sharp shock will probably stop it


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## paddlingfuriously (15 September 2015)

Had v useful lesson on handling horses on the ground from riding instructor today - why didn't I do that before? Thank you


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## shoegal22 (16 September 2015)

How awful, I feel for you. It should be enjoyable- that's why we do it right? I've got a lady coming out the 3rd October, it's been a while! X


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## shoegal22 (16 September 2015)

paddlingfuriously said:



			Had v useful lesson on handling horses on the ground from riding instructor today - why didn't I do that before? Thank you
		
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Made a difference? X


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## shoegal22 (16 September 2015)

Little update on my naughty little Sod, culmination of advice taken and a ad hoc approach has improved my confidence which surely will help his, he is now coming back to me for cuddles! Yay! Expert is still booked for the 3rd as still have issues on the ground but no where near as bad as before. I wil update!


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## paddlingfuriously (17 September 2015)

Hi shoegal, yes it did make a huge difference - mainly just for my confidence. It was too wet for my daughter's lesson, so instead she gave me a lesson in handling - so many things, like when I lead him in from the field I should stand in the door and let the pony turn himself in the stable rather than me walking in and turning with him, stuff I just never thought about and due to having a 20 year gap from horses, was v rusty with. How to get him to turn in the stable by standing at his middle and concentrating energy on his hindquarters while gently swinging a rope, etc.  That was actually really interesting, because when she did it, he moved his hindquarters away - but when I tried, he swung his bottom towards me 'threateningly' and of course the first time he did it, I jumped and reinforced his theory that by doing that, I will leave him alone. But this time I didn't back down, and did it again and again because I had Instructor with me and since then he has been much more respectful. I am going to ask her for another 'lesson' on the next wet day and I am also going to ask someone to help me do join up with him. I wish I had asked for help three weeks ago when it all started. He is just a clever pony who is finding his feet in a new home and pushing boundaries... 
He let me pat him in the field today without any treats and hold on to his head collar for a minute or two while I talked to him - something unthinkable last week.


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