# Horses and having children on yards....thoughts?



## Farma (21 November 2017)

Just wondered what peoples thoughts were on liveries taking their children/ babies down to do their horses with them? I seem to have encountered very odd attitudes and I am not sure if I am in cloud cuckoo world!


----------



## Red-1 (21 November 2017)

I think it very much depends on the yard. When I was young we had a very people orientated yard where I was on livery. All kids, me included, ran riot, encouraged on by the adults. Babies in prams, babies sat on horses, and one baby hung on a hook in the tack room (I kid you not!).

Dogs too, everyone came and hooftered their dog out of the car to join in the melee. 

I would say that the yard was not best for the horses though, and although it was great fun as a kid I would not livery my horse there now. 

My more 'serious' horses I have had at home, I would not feel comfortable with kids around unless they were well behaved enough not to shriek and they had their hands held to stop them running around.


----------



## 9tails (21 November 2017)

Depends what those liveries do with their kids.  If the kids are well behaved, aren't running around, aren't screeching at the top of their lungs and aren't throwing things around, I don't have a problem.  But I seem to find that they do all those things while the parent is off elsewhere.


----------



## BallyJ (21 November 2017)

I've experienced it from being a livery on a yard where children were, and work on a yard where liveries brought children with them.

Neither were enjoyable for me, other liveries or the children's parents! Everyone was busy saying ooo watch that, move them, etc etc and jobs took atleast double what they normally would!

I also don't take my dogs to the yard when other people are there as again it takes me twice as long


----------



## Batgirl (21 November 2017)

Not a fan personally but we are a small yard with nooks and crannies and I don't like a 'surprise' child!


----------



## Antw23uk (21 November 2017)

We had kids on the last yard I was on. The owner was a family friend of the YO's and they used to race up and down the yard (indoor spacious barn stables) on small kid tractors and god knows what else. I dislike children and dont see the point in them. The only use they had was to de sensitise the horse to stupid kid things but an accident waiting to happen.

God i hate kids!! Ergghhhhhh

If you have a horse WHY OH WHY would you want to get up the duff and produce a brat!!!! Horses are sooo much better.


----------



## Tiddlypom (21 November 2017)

Round exercise pen with shelter and access to food and water. Insert children on arrival at yard. Remove children when leaving the yard.


----------



## ihatework (21 November 2017)

To be honest I generally go to the yard for down time - therefore if I&#8217;m having to run the ferel child gauntlett it can be quite irritating. I&#8217;m not a baby person but like well behaved kids in small doses, so for me it would depend entirely on the parent and child! And if I could exploit the child for labour all the better!!


----------



## JJS (21 November 2017)

I have no issue with well-behaved children at the yard, but we have one particular livery who lets hers run riot. Most of the time, that's not a problem, as me and a friend are in a separate block to everybody else. However, recently, I had Mary and May tied up outside. Her little dogs were running around their feet already without being called back but both girls were being good about it. Then the two children came shrieking along behind them, arms waving, right into their path. I saw May looking panicked, stepped up behind to make sure they didn't get themselves kicked (no time to untie her), and got double barelled in the back as she lashed out in fear. At five months old, I could hardly blame May (she's never tried to kick before or since), and I don't think it was a negative reflection on her - she was just being a horse, and doesn't yet have the life experience to override those instincts when they kick in. I didn't even get an apology!


----------



## gothdolly (21 November 2017)

Children left unsupervised whilst their parent rides or sorts out their own horse are a nightmare. Children who are coming to the yard to ride or care for their own pony are generally a delight!


----------



## KittenInTheTree (21 November 2017)

Doesn't bother me at all - babies aren't mobile enough to cause too much trouble and toddlers/older children are essentially free desensitising devices on legs as far as I'm concerned! Plus if they're large enough you can borrow them to help sweep up and/or lug buckets of water around. Handy little creatures really  Husband and I do make sure to padlock both our dogs into one or other of our stables whilst at the yard though, because we prefer them to regard yard time as nap time as opposed to a walk. On the rare occasion that all three stables are in use at once for the horses, the dogs are locked in our tack room instead. They don't bark, and we keep them on lead when not shut away, so it's not as if they cause any bother.

As an aside, several of the children on our yard already ride better than any of the adults do (me included!), and are very dedicated to looking after their ponies, so it's clearly an important part of their life too. Of course there is the occasional disinterested sibling that gets dragged along, but they generally just seem to sit in the tea room with their assorted electronic gadgets.


----------



## Farma (21 November 2017)

Thanks, I do find some replies interesting really. I am just shocked at how many people are not tolerant of children. I have a toddler and obviously try my best to make sure he doesn't upset or frighten any horses but obviously he is a toddler so I cant bind and gag him!

It has never bothered me that people have their kids at yards, never crossed my mind much tbh and I have had numerous competition horses I could have been precious about getting spooked, just a massive surprise to me since I have had mine how people feel about them!


----------



## ester (21 November 2017)

I've not been on a yard with much child activity and would prefer not to be, horse time is my quiet time and children often don't get the quiet memo . The adults that did have children on our yard tended to only bring them when there was another adult member of the family to supervise the child while they did the horse.


----------



## windand rain (21 November 2017)

doesnt surprise me that horse people are not happy to have kids around they do tend to be self orientated abd focussed on what they are doing kids are even more unpredictable than the horse. I love kids they are funny and generally eager to help with easy but fun tasks


----------



## Orangehorse (21 November 2017)

It is the danger to the child that would worry me.  If that young pony had kicked the child instead of the owner it would have been at head height.  Husband's niece ran frightened of a dog behind a horse that kicked out and kicked her in the stomach. She had a ruptured spleen that would have killed her had she not been taken directly to hospital and she lives with the consequences still.

So with close supervision it is OK, keeping a keen eye open for horses, dogs, water, motor vehicles, potential falling objects (is everything that could fall and crush a child securely tied up, like spare gates) plus the 101 hazards that they are so good at finding taken into account.


----------



## Wheels (21 November 2017)

Exactly Ester, it's not about spooking my horse or anything similar it's about horses being my down time from a very busy and stressful job. I don't want to hear shrieking and having to make sure my horse doesn't stand on, knock over or otherwise injure a small child.

Well behaved, quiet children who don't cause bother and don't get in the way are perfectly fine and welcome


----------



## Ambers Echo (21 November 2017)

I'll take enthusiastic, pony-mad  kids over mardy, miserable, middle aged, gossipy, grumpy adults anyday.....


----------



## wiglet (21 November 2017)

I agree with Ambers Echo - enthusiast, pony mad kids are lovely to have at the yard - it's the ones that aren't remotely interested in horses and are only there because their parent needs to see to the horse, that are the problem.

Anyway, no kids in my yard - a few of the adults act like spoilt brats though...


----------



## ester (21 November 2017)

I was going to say most of my exposure is to those who are only there because their Mum's are into horses... the kids are generally cold and bored and would rather be anywhere but.


----------



## Sugar_and_Spice (21 November 2017)

I tolerate children in all kinds of situations and I love my family's children, but I don't like unsupervised children on yards.  Unfortunately, if they're there, they are generally unsupervised and running around etc.  Like others have said, the yard is my down time, I don't expect to have to tolerate children being a nuisance in my down time.  Wherever possible I choose child-free yards.

Do most of these parents who let the children get upto goodness knows what assume that other adults will watch over and protect their children?  If they got kicked I'd have some sympathy for the child, it's not their fault they have an eejit for a parent.  But no way would I stand in the firing line risking a life changing injury, to protect someone else's child.


----------



## scats (21 November 2017)

I grew up as one of a group of yard kids, then grew up on the yard and had kids around.  As I got older, my tolerance got less, or perhaps the behaviour of some of the kids put me off.  So many kids running riot and adults thinking nothing of it.  When we were kids, if we got too rowdy, we were told off!

I'm now on a yard with a couple of well behaved teenagers, but no children aside from a couple of visitors.  It's bliss.  I'm a teacher and the yard is my down time.  I don't have my own children and I don't wish to be around them.


----------



## teddypops (21 November 2017)

Farma said:



			Thanks, I do find some replies interesting really. I am just shocked at how many people are not tolerant of children. I have a toddler and obviously try my best to make sure he doesn't upset or frighten any horses but obviously he is a toddler so I cant bind and gag him!

It has never bothered me that people have their kids at yards, never crossed my mind much tbh and I have had numerous competition horses I could have been precious about getting spooked, just a massive surprise to me since I have had mine how people feel about them!
		
Click to expand...

Its more a case of not being tolerant of kids who are allowed to run wild unsupervised than being intolerant of kids in general


----------



## Arzada (21 November 2017)

Farma said:



			I am just shocked at how many people are not tolerant of children. I have a toddler and obviously try my best to make sure he doesn't upset or frighten any horses but obviously he is a toddler so I cant bind and gag him!
		
Click to expand...

I am shocked too that adults have free range children in potentially dangerous places. I like children but it makes me very nervous when the very young ones are unsupervised. They have no concept, because of their ages, of the danger. I can't stop my horse being a horse so if someone's child is inadvertently hurt eg by being to  close to and scaring a tied up horse into kicking out are you OK with that?


----------



## Peregrine Falcon (21 November 2017)

Ambers Echo said:



			I'll take enthusiastic, pony-mad  kids over mardy, miserable, middle aged, gossipy, grumpy adults anyday.....
		
Click to expand...

Nice way of looking at it.  I'm lucky that it's just myself and a couple of friends on our rented premises.  My children have been around ponies since birth.  The eldest rides and is very useful!! The youngest isn't keen on riding but likes helping.  Both have been taught how to approach and behave around them.  

I can see how it would irritate others wanting quiet time around their horses though.  I do like my down time without kids!!


----------



## ILuvCowparsely (21 November 2017)

Farma said:



			Just wondered what peoples thoughts were on liveries taking their children/ babies down to do their horses with them? I seem to have encountered very odd attitudes and I am not sure if I am in cloud cuckoo world!
		
Click to expand...

Luckily non of my liveries have babies, have done in the past, as for children the same thing most of my livery owners either don't have kids or they have flown the nest.


----------



## ILuvCowparsely (21 November 2017)

Ambers Echo said:



			I'll take enthusiastic, pony-mad  kids over mardy, miserable, middle aged, gossipy, grumpy adults anyday.....
		
Click to expand...

I am the opposite, give me a grumpy  adult any day over children.   I am not maternal in anyway shape or form so my patience with screaming kids on the yard is very short.   That said a livery has 2 twin girls who shares their pony who come up twice a week, she is in charge of them and they  are kept under control  well and are nice 10 year old girls.  It is the noisy screaming defiant ones I cannot take.

One of my pet grieves is when a livery uses the yard as a baby sitter for their  child while they go off and do  other things leaving kid on it's own even though rules says children to be supervised.


----------



## Rowreach (21 November 2017)

Farma said:



			Thanks, I do find some replies interesting really. I am just shocked at how many people are not tolerant of children. I have a toddler and obviously try my best to make sure he doesn't upset or frighten any horses but obviously he is a toddler so I cant bind and gag him!

It has never bothered me that people have their kids at yards, never crossed my mind much tbh and I have had numerous competition horses I could have been precious about getting spooked, just a massive surprise to me since I have had mine how people feel about them!
		
Click to expand...

But how can you then keep your toddler safe?

I had two children when I was running a livery yard.  When they were tiny it was easy to trap them in a pushchair and park them somewhere safe, but when they started toddling I had to get someone else to look after them while I was on the yard.

Having small children around horses is plain dangerous.  I'm not surprised therefore that so many people are "intolerant"!


----------



## Lammy (21 November 2017)

There a two types, small children who know that horses need quiet and calm behaviour and others who are not taught that the yard is not a play area.
My little cousin is very well behaved on a rare visit to the yard and fully understands that if she's loud and/or disobeys my instruction of where to walk (ie, not behind pony)and what to do then she won't get to have a ride.

It's also really not a place for babies, at least not for an extended period of time. A liveries baby was recently bumped out of a pushchair and she was supposedly parked in a "safe" spot. Ambulance called and baby fine,luckily, livery has since sold her horse as was finding it too hard to do both. 

Horse mad kids/teens are fine, we have several of these and they are so nice! Plus they tend to know the best hacks...


----------



## pinkypug1 (21 November 2017)

I have 2 young kids 6&3 and I could count on one hand how many times they have been to the livery yard with me. It's my down time and I wouldn't get peace to ride with them. Also I don't want to annoy other people, they are very well behaved but having been around horsey people for 30 years I know how intolerant they can be &#55357;&#56841; They do come with me quite a bit to my other lot of horses who are on my own land but they Mooch about the field while I groom/feed so don't cause any bother to anyone but me! 

As a mother I do love kids but a busy livery yard is not the place for them!!


----------



## JDH01 (21 November 2017)

Finding this really interesting as childless by choice, been on same yard 18 yrs when it has gone from no children to loads as yard owners now have a child.  I don't see other people's children as my responsibility and I have to say given kids whizzing by has improved my horses tolerance of such things and they are less spooky.  The kids seem to know I am interested in their riding but not anything else.  For the record I have event horses and hunters  and am on full livery.  Dogs have always been welcome on yard and horses are dog and hound proof as totally used to their running around. I still would be no where else with my horses and believe the variety keeps us sane.


----------



## claret09 (22 November 2017)

I don't have children, I am a teacher and I love having children on the yard. they have helped my boy get use to prams and balloons, footballs and rugby balls, trampolines - he loves watching the kids on it. it makes him much easier to take out


----------



## mytwofriends (22 November 2017)

My 3 kids were welcome at our very child-friendly yard when they were small. The two girls then took lessons when they were old enough, my son played with the other non-riding kids and had a blast. The same at shows. Kids and adults would all go along and everyone encouraged each other. It helped that the YOs had kids too. 

This was in the USA where children (back in the 90s) were always catered for, and tolerated. That being said, inappropriate behaviour around the horses wasnt allowed, and it was quickly nipped in the bud. Same with dogs.

Over here, I found the attitude totally different. This thread is quite a sad read. Its down to the parent involved (usually mother I suppose) to make sure their kids behave around the horses appropriately, and not just use the yard as a babysitting service.

Yes, there are brats, but I find grumpy gossiping and/or bullying adults more offensive, like one of the earlier posters mentioned.


----------



## Equi (22 November 2017)

Depends on the yard and the people. Personally kids generally annoy me, they move about too much and are far too loud. And they always run everywhere - why do they always need to run? My horse is not scared of them but hes an adults type of horse and the running and yelling can make him a bit anxious. They also keep popping up in random corners of the arena coming out of the bushes etc which is very very annoying and I have had to give them a stare of death before. Weve only got about three that are rarely there though thankfully.

But I will add that when I worked in a riding school for kids I loved all the action but thats because thats what the scene was. I wouldnt want my own horse in that scene.


----------



## DD (22 November 2017)

much s we all love our horses I would have thought that mothers could tear themselves away for a few hours to give birth in a maternity unit. ( Having children on yards)---Sorry I couldn't resist LOL


----------



## Flashypants (22 November 2017)

I take my little girl with me when I do my ponies if I don't have someone to watch her while I'm there but I have always been on very small "private" yards and not a full on livery yard with lots of horses.  I have made sure that she is with me or safe in the car watching a DVD  (I always check on her and the car was parked in the actual yard near the boxes).  I have taught her the correct way to behave around ponies but not all parents do this.  I can fully understand why people aren't tolerant of children though.


----------



## tallyho! (22 November 2017)

Kids welcome on our yard. There's usually a gaggle of kids, dogs and cats. It's a busy but calm peaceful atmosphere and the older kids show the younger ones how to behave. I personally wouldn't bring mine if I were riding but if just doing chores, then I get a handy helper. 

The horses get desensitised, the kids gain confidence and make friends. 

I'm glad we have a busy farm where kids and dogs are the very least of a horses worry... there's cattle running in and out of sheds going to pasture, tractors, quad bikes, lorries, vans... the horses just get used to it and don't seem to care.

I do feel a bit sorry for people who haven't got the capacity to tolerate anything out of their control, must be a hard life to live.


----------



## Farma (22 November 2017)

tallyho! said:



			Kids welcome on our yard. There's usually a gaggle of kids, dogs and cats. It's a busy but calm peaceful atmosphere and the older kids show the younger ones how to behave. I personally wouldn't bring mine if I were riding but if just doing chores, then I get a handy helper. 

The horses get desensitised, the kids gain confidence and make friends. 

I'm glad we have a busy farm where kids and dogs are the very least of a horses worry... there's cattle running in and out of sheds going to pasture, tractors, quad bikes, lorries, vans... the horses just get used to it and don't seem to care.

I do feel a bit sorry for people who haven't got the capacity to tolerate anything out of their control, must be a hard life to live.
		
Click to expand...

I feel the same as you, I only ever ride when my partner has the baby but I do have to take him with me to do chores from time to time, I am very responsible and careful but I am surprised that people don't want them around. I mean very surprised.
People have families its the most natural thing in the world and not to want children around is amazing to me. Saying that I am a riding instructor, I am very used to teaching children and making sure they are safe around the horses, but then having my own was a massive eye opener to how attitudes can be toward them. I had no idea! 
I think someone above said something like are you ok with an accident happening or a child getting kicked, I mean for god sake did everyone start riding at 18 and above, no, most decent riders and most of our Olympic riders started as tiny tots - thank god those yards were tolerant enough to let them be around horses!


----------



## Antw23uk (22 November 2017)

tallyho! said:



			I do feel a bit sorry for people who haven't got the capacity to tolerate anything out of their control, must be a hard life to live.
		
Click to expand...

Far far from it, its a wonderful peaceful life. Never feel sorry for someone who doesnt want or like kids. We are far more lucky than those with that responsibility hanging round there necks like a heavy weight!

I'm trying not to be but I do find myself becoming a bit of a 'breeder hater' but I've always been against unnecessary breeding of animals. I mean with so many animals in rescues up and down the country why would you ever need to breed .... It was only a matter of time before I thought the same about humans. Like the world isnt overpopulated enough already!!


----------



## windand rain (22 November 2017)

I think the Brits are generally less child friendly than other countries. I do love kids and like having them about my pony on the other hand hates them couldnt eat a whole one but would give it a try.All the kids that come to the yard are told not to go near him. Any tinies about and he is put well away from them He usually like this as it involves being allowed more food. I find this thread really sad the lack of tolerance and the selfishness is horrid but it takes all sorts to make a world I am just grateful I am not one of those that have such miserable attitudes


----------



## Farma (22 November 2017)

Antw23uk said:



			Far far from it, its a wonderful peaceful life. Never feel sorry for someone who doesnt want or like kids. We are far more lucky than those with that responsibility hanging round there necks like a heavy weight!

I'm trying not to be but I do find myself becoming a bit of a 'breeder hater' but I've always been against unnecessary breeding of animals. I mean with so many animals in rescues up and down the country why would you ever need to breed .... It was only a matter of time before I thought the same about humans. Like the world isnt overpopulated enough already!!
		
Click to expand...

Blimey - you would truly detest me then I have a baby and have bred a foal!


----------



## Ambers Echo (22 November 2017)

Britain in general is very intolerant of children... But then again British children can often be so much worse behaved than European ones! Which came first though? Do children never learn to behave in grown-up spaces because they aren't tolerated? So they spend their lives in made-for-kids play areas and parks so never learn to adapt to different environments? My kids love horses and are very good around them. They had every right to be on the yard looking after their own pony and riding.  But even they were often on the sharp end of some miserable ******'s tongue for no real reason at my old yard. I found that baffling and sad so left in the end. Much happier now on a busy yard with lots of well behaved children who all ride amazingly!


----------



## Antw23uk (22 November 2017)

windand rain said:



			I think the Brits are generally less child friendly than other countries. I do love kids and like having them about my pony on the other hand hates them couldnt eat a whole one but would give it a try.All the kids that come to the yard are told not to go near him. Any tinies about and he is put well away from them He usually like this as it involves being allowed more food. I find this thread really sad the lack of tolerance and the selfishness is horrid but it takes all sorts to make a world I am just grateful I am not one of those that have such miserable attitudes
		
Click to expand...

My gelding LOVES children .. I slightly hate him for it!


----------



## Red-1 (22 November 2017)

Farma said:



			I think someone above said something like are you ok with an accident happening or a child getting kicked, I mean for god sake did everyone start riding at 18 and above, no, most decent riders and most of our Olympic riders started as tiny tots - thank god those yards were tolerant enough to let them be around horses!
		
Click to expand...

I think there is a difference with children learning to ride, or having their own pony with an adult concentrating on them and showing them what to do - compared with a toddler going down to the yard for the adult to do their horse. I can't see how you can be simultaneously leading your horse out of the stable and also looking after the toddler. That is different to the toddler being fully engaged in leading their own (smaller) pony. I agree that a baby in a pram is easier, and older ones can be sent to the tack room to play on tech, but toddlers need 1-1 attention. As OP succinctly said, you can't "bind and gag them" so toddlers need their hands holding or 1-1 attention.

For toddlers I agree with a previous poster who had their own livery yard, but when they had a toddler they waited for someone to babysit the toddler before attempting to do stuff with the horses.


----------



## pansymouse (22 November 2017)

I have actively sought out a yard that does not permit children or dogs; I don't care for either much and prefer to have my horse time not in their company.  

If I was at a yard that permitted them obviously I would have to tolerate them but would not encourage them.

I learnt to ride as a three year old at a riding school; my parents were not horsey and believed it was right that they should pay for my horse time in a safe child orientated environment.


----------



## Ambers Echo (22 November 2017)

There's a toddler who comes to the yard every day with her mother. She is an absolute delight. She has her own mini wheel barrow and other tools and she solemnly mimics her mum in doing all the chores. She is quiet, patient, focused, giggly, enthusiastic, cheerful and willing. A lot of that, I think, comes from her mother who is patient and involves her fully in everything she's doing instead of  'parking' her somewhere and expecting her to just wait without grizzling. She adores the horses too - especially my 'big horsey' who she is a little in awe of!


----------



## criso (22 November 2017)

Farma said:



			Thanks, I do find some replies interesting really. I am just shocked at how many people are not tolerant of children. I have a toddler and obviously try my best to make sure he doesn't upset or frighten any horses but obviously he is a toddler so I cant bind and gag him!

It has never bothered me that people have their kids at yards, never crossed my mind much tbh and I have had numerous competition horses I could have been precious about getting spooked, just a massive surprise to me since I have had mine how people feel about them!
		
Click to expand...

It's not so much about the horses getting spooked, I'm happy for mine to get used working and ignoring activity around them; it's just that parents get a bit funny if their precious ends up in hospital. And you guarantee the horse would get the blame, not the child. 

I have been on yards where small children have run up to horses and grabbed their hind legs, run under their bellies, in one case ran in to the school where I had a horse just off box rest throwing shapes on the lunge and asking if they can  'play with the big brown horse'.  One stray hoof from a bucking horse could do alot of injury to a small person.  This was a very big yard with a variety of horses so you couldn't guarantee their behaviour so in that context free range children was not best idea.  

Current yard I often take my retired down the lane for a walk and will stop to let children pat him.  16'3 tb and very sweet and gentle around them however it's a controlled situation with me being aware of where they are, if there's anything approaching that might spook him and the parents are with them and in control of the kids so if I say he's a bit fidgety today they will tell them to keep a distance.

I


----------



## tallyho! (22 November 2017)

Antw23uk said:



			Far far from it, its a wonderful peaceful life. Never feel sorry for someone who doesnt want or like kids. We are far more lucky than those with that responsibility hanging round there necks like a heavy weight!

I'm trying not to be but I do find myself becoming a bit of a 'breeder hater' but I've always been against unnecessary breeding of animals. I mean with so many animals in rescues up and down the country why would you ever need to breed .... It was only a matter of time before I thought the same about humans. Like the world isnt overpopulated enough already!!
		
Click to expand...

Good for you.

Sorry to read that you feel kids are "heavy weights"... shame your parents made you feel that way about yourself.


----------



## Antw23uk (22 November 2017)

tallyho! said:



			Good for you.

Sorry to read that you feel kids are "heavy weights"... shame your parents made you feel that way about yourself.
		
Click to expand...

Hahaa Im sorry you were brought up to keep apologising for everything. Btw I had a pretty awesome childhood thanks and live a very privileged life


----------



## Equi (22 November 2017)

People who have kids always feel the need to vindicate it and get quite defensive when people say they would prefer not to have them about - why is that? If you have kids they are your world. Thats totally fine and understandable. But if you dont have kids why do you need to get them pushed on you by other people - is it because the people with kids have seen the light? Its like someone saying I feel sorry for you youve not got Jesus in your life. Its judgy and unnecessary. Have a kid, have twenty, I dont care. But I dont pay hundreds of pounds a month to be around kids - hence choosing yard with less kids and no toddlers. Im not intolerant of them, I just dont fancy them much. I dont much fancy goats either, so I wont be paying to be on a yard with 500 goats!


----------



## Antw23uk (22 November 2017)

equi said:



			People who have kids always feel the need to vindicate it and get quite defensive when people say they would prefer not to have them about - why is that? If you have kids they are your world. Thats totally fine and understandable. But if you dont have kids why do you need to get them pushed on you by other people - is it because the people with kids have seen the light? Its like someone saying I feel sorry for you youve not got Jesus in your life. Its judgy and unnecessary. Have a kid, have twenty, I dont care. But I dont pay hundreds of pounds a month to be around kids - hence choosing yard with less kids and no toddlers. Im not intolerant of them, I just dont fancy them much. I dont much fancy goats either, so I wont be paying to be on a yard with 500 goats!
		
Click to expand...

Well said


----------



## Damnation (22 November 2017)

Current yard is adults, purely because that is how its happened not because there is any paticular ban.

I have been on 2 different yards where there were two children about and it was two very different experiences.

Yard 1 - GANGS of children. Left wheelbarrows full, stole feed, bedding, money out of my purse on one occasion. It could be very distracting and to be honest, intimidating. I was a teen and quite shy, gaggles of other kids/teens wandering about really intimidated me. 

It was a massive yard so we are talking 20-30 children. EVERYTHING including your wheelbarrow, tack, feed, grooming kit etc had to be bolted down or you would find it across the yard a week later. Kids would be running around the place, yelling, screaming. You'd be trying to ride and suddenly your horse would spook because a child would decide that a waterfight on the yard would be a good idea etc.

Yard 2 - More expensive competition type yard. I was staff there. We had a group of kids who came up at the weekends for the day to look after their ponies. BUT, much more sensible, same age group as yard 1, but on the whole they were very polite and level headed. 

There was a rule that if they came up for the day and they weren't doing things for their ponies (and they wouldn't be, solidly for 7-8hrs) they had to help staff. Things like, help bring the odd horse in, fill some haynets, do a bit of sweeping, maybe clean some tack, nothing taxing, just the odd 20 mins help here and there. In exchange, I would nanny the kids out hacking or be the person on the ground if they wanted to use the XC course or jump in the arena. (Under 16s had to have a person over 16 supervising them when jumping).

The YO was determined we weren't a babysitting service and if they were going to spend the entire day at the yard they could help out a little. She was also determined that if they child wasn't going to behave then she would ring their parents and have them taken home. The kids knew she was deadly serious so they behaved, we never really had any problems and I can't remember ever having to resort to ringing parents.

So on the whole, it depends on the kids and the yard setup. 

Yard 1, the owner didn't care, she was trying to sell and obviously no-one tried to steal her things so she didn't realise or care about the full extent of the impact the kids were having on the yard.

Yard 2, the YO was much more involved, she cared about how the children would behave and wanted them to be able to come to the yard, BUT not disrupt other liveries.


----------



## Jack110 (22 November 2017)

equi said:



			People who have kids always feel the need to vindicate it and get quite defensive when people say they would prefer not to have them about - why is that? If you have kids they are your world. That&#8217;s totally fine and understandable. But if you don&#8217;t have kids why do you need to get them pushed on you by other people - is it because the people with kids have &#8220;seen the light?&#8221; It&#8217;s like someone saying I feel sorry for you you&#8217;ve not got Jesus in your life. It&#8217;s judgy and unnecessary. Have a kid, have twenty, I don&#8217;t care. But I don&#8217;t pay hundreds of pounds a month to be around kids - hence choosing yard with less kids and no toddlers. I&#8217;m not intolerant of them, I just don&#8217;t fancy them much. I don&#8217;t much fancy goats either, so I won&#8217;t be paying to be on a yard with 500 goats!
		
Click to expand...

Exactly, people ask why don't you have children I always why do you have them! Usually shuts them up.  We should be able to say we want child free places as much as parents want child friendly places. Not worse just different


----------



## stencilface (22 November 2017)

Mini sf aged 4 has just become actually helpful at the yard, rather than just 'helping' but actually making things much slower.  She is chief bucket collector and washer. She's not that wary around their back legs, but she's only let near those that are as safe as horses can be.

There's been a few years of screaming in the hay bar in the car seat or pushchair up to this point, I don't dawdle though, it's like someone has a stop watch on me, I've forgotten what it's like not to be in a rush


----------



## mother_of_poniesx (22 November 2017)

Children on yards supervised at all times = no problem at all
Children being allowed to run riot/parents using the yard as a creche = not ok.

Yards are dangerous places and imo not a place for small children BUT I appreciate life is complicated and it sometimes may not be possible to leave the kids at home. As long as parents keep them under control and don't let them run riot, thats fine.


----------



## ester (22 November 2017)

tallyho! said:



			I do feel a bit sorry for people who haven't got the capacity to tolerate anything out of their control, must be a hard life to live.
		
Click to expand...

Yes it is pretty rubbish, I spend much of my life trying to manage it, for instance I spend a lot of time in ear plugs because I am noise sensitive too. I have in the past been really upset when my only 'zen' part of my day which will have been filled with things out of my control, with my pony gets interrupted somehow as it means I don't get any of that time then. 

I do think it is ok to not want to spend enforced time around other people's children, and that if you don't to choose a set up that then suits you, the same as all the other reasons you would choose a yard for. I wouldn't complain about children on a yard which allowed children, unless they were being a hazard to themselves. It is also possible to bombproof and childproof a horse without them free ranging a yard. I know because I have one. 

I grew up working in a riding school, it was a place for children, I was only a teen myself all good. 
I have spent time riding other people's horses kept on yards with large numbers of children wailing and making a lot of noise because they didn't want to be out in the cold and rain while mum looked after a pony they had no interest in at all. They seemed to come with shouty mums too which also didn't help. - Generally it was an atmosphere of everyone, including the horses being on edge.

We have a lot of neighbours to our fields with grandchildren (over 50s van homes down one side), they are all invited round to come and meet, brush, prepare the feeds have a sit on the ponies as I would have loved that as a kid, so I am not exactly anti child.


----------



## SEL (22 November 2017)

mother_of_poniesx said:



			Children on yards supervised at all times = no problem at all
Children being allowed to run riot/parents using the yard as a creche = not ok.
		
Click to expand...

Spot on. My last yard was a nightmare and I got shouted at by one of the mothers when I asked her 10yo daughter to stop bouncing a ball against the outside of the indoor school while I was riding. Not great on any horse, but especially not on one who had been out of work for a month. Apparently I should have spoken to the mother about the issue. I think my retort of 'well that would have been from a&e if she hadn't stopped with that ****** ball' shut her up.

Current yard the YO is definitely not one for babysitting. If kids are on the yard then they work. There are always fields to poo pick. Most liveries don't bring their kids to the yard, but if they come then they pick up on the atmosphere and behave. Its soooo much nicer!


----------



## OrangeAndLemon (22 November 2017)

I'm generally not a fan of children (I don't have the patience) but I recognise the value of young adults and the opportunity the equestrian lifestyle offers in bringing them up to be considerate, sensible adults. We can't expect them to evolve overnight from annoying children into useful, valuable additions to society. The young adults at our yard are an asset because they've been around horses since they were children. 

Lets also not forget Riding for the Disabled. Many of these children struggle to remain calm and quiet when enjoying their first trot. The difference here is that these children are never unsupervised.

Is it 'children' that are the problem or unsupervised children?


----------



## Rosiejazzandpia (22 November 2017)

Not a fan of children at all, and I don't think yards are an ideal place for children. My yard is my peaceful place, Yard Owner doesn't allow children or groups e.g. don't bring your aunties cousins five children to stroke the horses. 

However, I don't think the problem is ever the children; usually it's the adults who aren't supervising them correctly. 
If I had my own child and needed to have that child at the yard with me for whatever reason, I would take the time to teach them how to behave. Children running riot on a yard is usually paired with gossiping mothers who have no authority over their kids and so end up screaming down the yard as little Harry and Jessica spook the horses, tip wheelbarrows and throw hay at each other.


----------



## stencilface (22 November 2017)

Lol at 'if I had a child and they needed to be there for whatever reason'

The reason being that life doesn't stop because you have kids and most of us have to get on with stuff with the kids in tow most of the time. Doing the horses is far easier than doing the supermarket shop


----------



## Pippity (22 November 2017)

IME, the kids who are there to see to their own pony are generally pretty good. There used to be a couple on my yard who were more sensible, dedicated, and focused on their pony's welfare than a lot of the adults. 

The kids who are there while mum sees to her horse CAN be good, but only if properly supervised.

The ones who are there while mum sees to her horse and are left to run wild are an absolute nightmare. I found one in my share horse's stable waving a whip at his legs to make him jump. (She got soundly *******ed and heard words she'd probably never heard before.)

Given the choice, I'd opt for a childfree yard, simply because a flat-out, "No kids," is easier for a YO to enforce than a, "Well-behaved kids only".


----------



## Abi90 (22 November 2017)

I don't like children, I never have and I don't want any either. They annoy me, therefore I'm on a yard that has over 16s only (I don't really mind kids over 12 anyway). That's my choice because I don't like them, just like some people don't like cats or dogs or horses. That's fine. 

Equally for those that do like children, or have them, that's also fine and they can choose child friendly yards.

Children are a lifestyle choice and as someone said we're entitled to child free zones as much as parents are entitled to child friendly zones.

I have to spend enough time with my husband's family telling me that I "MUST" have a baby soon and that I must be "weird" if I don't like kids. Whilst their numerous badly behaved children run amok in restaurants and public places annoying people! I like going to see the horse to get away from it all.


----------



## mums the groom (22 November 2017)

Depends on the Kids, I have a 10 year old she has been around horses all her life, but when she was a toddler I had to give up having a horse on loan because I couldn't do Child and horse at the same time. there are some kids I could happily lock in a sound proof stable and leave until they are 18. we have one toddler that although he has no fear of horses I worry every time he is down he's usually screaming his head off crying and shouting and waling round the horses back ends without a care in the world. he thinks nothing about going through your stuff and once went through my tack box whilst I was grooming and went off with the very sharp knife I keep in there, not a peep from parents. 
Even now I try to go to the yard without children although daughter usually just takes herself off the hay barn with friends and ipad.


----------



## windand rain (22 November 2017)

Although it should be down to choice often situations change a child free zone may well have to become a child friendly one if some of the child unfriendly people change their mind and have one. No doubt they would then be thought in being unreasonable in not moving off that yard but hey ho all other facilities may be essential to that horse trunout being the obvious one as a lot of yards have none or limited trunout essential especially if you do have kids. When I had my kids they rarely came near the ponies as they were my down time and OH looked after them. When I had my granddaughter she had noone else so she had to come with me but her first sentence when asked why she was such a good girl was "grandma doesnt do whinging" and I dont what I find really annoying isnt the kids per se but adults yelling at them, refusing to discipline them and allowing the rat bag behaviour that makes people hate kids. So overall I love kids and hate obnoxious adults both with and without kids. You only get horrid kids by not parenting them properly from day 1
there are 3 kinds of people those that want kids
those that dont until they decide they do
those that never will
there are also people who should never have kids even if they want them


----------



## JoannaC (22 November 2017)

I don't have children and have never wanted them but I did love having two small ponies and borrowing other peoples children to ride them.  I took them out hacking and to pony club and shows it was fun.  They saved any tears and tantrums for their parents and were great when they were with me.  I like children round the yard if they want to be there and are into horses.  Not so keen on hoards of kids playing, crying and being a nuisance.


----------



## webble (22 November 2017)

Antw23uk said:



			Far far from it, its a wonderful peacefule life. Never feel sorry for someone who doesnt want or like kids. We are far more lucky than those with that responsibility hanging round there necks like a heavy weight!

I'm trying not to be but I do find myself becoming a bit of a 'breeder hater' but I've always been against unnecessary breeding of animals. I mean with so many animals in rescues up and down the country why would you ever need to breed .... It was only a matter of time before I thought the same about humans. Like the world isnt overpopulated enough already!!
		
Click to expand...

Love this post!


----------



## Batgirl (22 November 2017)

Abi90 said:



			Children are a lifestyle choice and as someone said we're entitled to child free zones as much as parents are entitled to child friendly zones.
		
Click to expand...

This really - someone had a dig earlier saying 'how awful it must be to tolerate.....'

I will always tolerate that outside my control, it doesn't mean I have to like it.  I am lovely to children, despite not liking them or wanting them.  My horse is lovely to children, he is however 17"2 and quite clumsy and I would rather not (when having my relaxing leisure time) have to worry about him stepping on a toddler!

I also quite like my quiet time so if gaggles of children are a common part of a yard I will choose not to go there much like someone with children would probably choose not to go somewhere that wasn't child friendly.


----------



## gunnergundog (22 November 2017)

For me, livery yards are for the liverying of horses - there's a clue in the name!  They are NOT child or dog exercise parks or creches. 

There is one yard I know that is exclusively for children and that is grand, but you wouldn't find me within a million miles of it.

Shudders...........


----------



## Rosiejazzandpia (22 November 2017)

stencilface said:



			Lol at 'if I had a child and they needed to be there for whatever reason'

The reason being that life doesn't stop because you have kids and most of us have to get on with stuff with the kids in tow most of the time. Doing the horses is far easier than doing the supermarket shop 

Click to expand...

Very well aware of this. I meant more in the general sense of not having my own child at the yard if I could help it. Needing to have them there personally would be if my husband wasn't able to take care of the hypothetical child while I popped to the yard.


----------



## SpringArising (22 November 2017)

I find it strange how so many people have such little empathy towards kids. You were one once, don't forget that.


----------



## R2D2 (22 November 2017)

I have no issue with well behaved children at the yard.  We did have issues for a while with one lady who let her feral children run wild, and nearly had accidents several times, but the rest of them are no trouble at all.  I agree with others who have said it is good for horses to get used to things going on around them.  When it is just me at the yard, I encourage my son to be noisy, run around and shout, so my young horse gets used to it.  He does know how to behave when there are other people/horses around though.


----------



## teddypops (22 November 2017)

I think if you are finding that people are intolerant of your children you should take a look at how your children are behaving. I have a child and I dont mind children but I cant stand parents who allow their children to misbehave and be a nuisance to others.


----------



## teddypops (22 November 2017)

SpringArising said:



			I find it strange how so many people have such little empathy towards kids. You were one once, don't forget that.
		
Click to expand...

Is it for all children though or just the ones who are allowed to misbehave and make a nuisance of themselves?


----------



## gunnergundog (22 November 2017)

SpringArising said:



			I find it strange how so many people have such little empathy towards kids. You were one once, don't forget that.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, in the days when children were seen and not heard and were expected to mind their Ps and Qs.  Also, restaurants and many other places tended to be adult only zones unlike today.


----------



## huskydamage (22 November 2017)

I don't have kids and yard is my chill out time so when kids are running around screaming and spooking my horse coz they're flying round on roller skates or something, it does annoy me. But I'd never say anything, I might have one one day if you can't get a babysitter what do you do? Not do your horse?


----------



## Hexx (22 November 2017)

I prefer a child-free yard and that is what I would choose when looking.

However, I don't mind babies/toddlers in pushchairs that sit next to the school while Mum is riding (I used to sit with my nephew when he was little and my sister rode), but once they get big enough to scamper around, then that's the time to leave them at home.

At one yard I was at, one of the ladies who did the mucking out used to bring her son to the yard - he was a little sod and she had been asked a couple of times to leave him at home!  He was very badly behaved and destructive, to the point where he was using one of the storage containers to hide in and smoke.  He didn't put the cigarette out properly it set fire to the container.  The container was shared between me and another livery as storage for all our gear and we lost absolutely everything - I was left with my horse, one rug and his grooming kit.  The YO lost 20 bales of haylage and two livery's lorries were set alight causing significant damage.  The little s**t just stood there smirking at the Police and Firemen when they questioned him - we knew it was him as he had been caught smoking  before.  He was 11.


----------



## Rowreach (22 November 2017)

SpringArising said:



			I find it strange how so many people have such little empathy towards kids. You were one once, don't forget that.
		
Click to expand...

But why should anyone who is at a yard to ride and care for their horse, in what is probably a limited amount of time, have to spend part of it either worrying about the safety of someone else's child, or worry about the child spooking their horse, or have to spend time chatting to a child in order to appear empathetic or friendly ...???

I wouldn't have inflicted my children on my liveries or allowed them to be bothered unduly - but then my kids knew how to behave and how to stay safe once they were old enough to be on the yard doing their ponies, and before that they either had close supervision from me or they were somewhere else altogether.

I'm a parent and I cannot understand the opinions of some parents on this thread who think everyone else should adore/put up with/empathise with their kids


----------



## 9tails (22 November 2017)

SpringArising said:



			I find it strange how so many people have such little empathy towards kids. You were one once, don't forget that.
		
Click to expand...

You seem to be missing the point, it's not all kids.  Just toddlers that aren't bound and gagged or children running riot.  A livery yard is NOT the place for unsupervised children, but many mothers seem to think that other owners should look out for the dangers.  My horse in particular was sold because her previous owner had three children in quick succession, all boys.  The horse became a nervous handful because she couldn't bear the noise and disruption of short, bored, unruly humans in her world.


----------



## Pippity (22 November 2017)

SpringArising said:



			I find it strange how so many people have such little empathy towards kids. You were one once, don't forget that.
		
Click to expand...

The general theme is that people don't mind well-behaved children - it's the destructive, unsupervised hellspawn that are the issue.

And I was a well-behaved child, because my mother (a single parent who worked full-time) actually parented me and taught me how to behave.


----------



## eggs (22 November 2017)

Pippity said:



			The general theme is that people don't mind well-behaved children - it's the destructive, unsupervised hellspawn that are the issue.

And I was a well-behaved child, because my mother (a single parent who worked full-time) actually parented me and taught me how to behave.
		
Click to expand...

This with bells on.  It does seem that too many children are allowed to do want they want as it makes for an easier life for the parents.  I don't have children and am not maternal but have no problem with well behaved children that do not shout and scream whenever they don't get their own way.

My groom used to bring her child to the yard if her child minder let her down and it set my teeth on edge as she was a very screechy child and her mother never told her to be quiet.  She would also pick up stuff and move it around the yard without putting it back where it belonged.


----------



## BBP (22 November 2017)

Im a massive hypocrite, I was a child (I had no choice in the matter though!) and had a lucky childhood of going to riding schools and hanging around on yards helping out.  But I am massively 'anti-child'.  I know its not their fault that they are small and loud and energetic and annoying, they didn't ask to be children any more than I did, and they are just doing what kids do, but I proactively decided never to have children and so have no desire to spend any time with anyone else's little treasures either.  I balance this with being equally irritated by most adults too though, and as such I keep away from busy livery yards where i would come into contact with lots of people.  My horse is my downtime, I like to enjoy the peace and quiet and just be with my horses without interruption, so a private set-up suits me.

If I chose to be on a busy yard I would expect there to be kids around, I would be annoyed probably but I would accept the parents right to have their kids with them as long as they actively parented them instead of seeing it as a free creche.  I think its good for kids to be out in the fresh air instead of being inside all the time, and learning about animals is always a good thing, so as much as I find nothing adorable or charming or interesting about other peoples kids, i would tolerate them being around.  Luckily I don't have to!


----------



## spacefaer (22 November 2017)

I used to run a competition livery yard with one small section being DIY. We had one woman who would bring her young daughter, who I think was about 4. Daughter used to steal things of ours and hide them (including the tractor keys, which we found in a large pile of builders' sand). Mother used to go off for hacks, leaving the daughter in the DIY tack room, with a storage heater on full blast (at our expense). If she was going on a particularly long hack, she would lock the door.

We only found out about this after we had asked her to leave, when the other DIYers told us.

On the upside, my OH tells a story about a friend of his who had a very mobile toddler - when she was riding in the arena or teaching, she put the child in a vertical stack of tyres in the corner of the arena. Kept the child in place and in sight!

I had a pony at home, from the age of four, so never had the experience of being on a livery yard until I went to train at Talland, where everything was run with military precision, and there was no running about, screaming and shouting from anyone, regardless of age.


----------



## Ambers Echo (22 November 2017)

No-one should have to tolerate thieving, fire setting (!), shrieking, yelling, tantrums etc no matter how old the offender. (And the biggest shouter/stirrer/tantrummer/bully on my old yard was NOT a child....) Nor should they have to tolerate unsafe behaviours and YO's should come down like a tonne of bricks on behaviour like that. But my own experience is that there is a general lack of tolerance of children in the UK just for being children. My kids have never misbehaved but as I said sometimes they got grief for no reason at all. Adults seemed to feel that it was acceptable to be rude or dictatorial to them just because they were children. And to turf them out of the school if they wanted to use  it etc. And I see that elsewhere too - shop keepers saying "I've got my eye on you' to my kids who would not DREAM of stealing, people tutting and sighing at them for no obvious reason, random strangers saying 'why aren't you at school' in an accusatory way when my daughter was off for non visible health reasons etc etc etc. I do think it's a bit sad really.


----------



## Auslander (22 November 2017)

spacefaer said:



			at Talland, where everything was run with military precision, and there was no running about, screaming and shouting from anyone, regardless of age.
		
Click to expand...

Except after the pub on a Friday night!


----------



## KittenInTheTree (22 November 2017)

Downton Dame said:



			much s we all love our horses I would have thought that mothers could tear themselves away for a few hours to give birth in a maternity unit. ( Having children on yards)---Sorry I couldn't resist LOL
		
Click to expand...

Probably had to remain on the yard to wait for the blooming farrier!  (I thought the same as you, btw!)


----------



## LadyGascoyne (22 November 2017)

Farma said:



			Thanks, I do find some replies interesting really. I am just shocked at how many people are not tolerant of children. I have a toddler and obviously try my best to make sure he doesn't upset or frighten any horses but obviously he is a toddler so I cant bind and gag him!
		
Click to expand...

I don't understand being shocked. Why should it be expected that people tolerate other people's children? If someone decides to have a child, that is lovely for them but it doesn't give them the right to expect everyone else to enjoy its company. 

Your quote above makes me understand why you're not getting entirely positive reactions. It comes across quite entitled. Yes, you cannot bind and gag him, but you can stop bringing him to a livery yard where others are trying to enjoy what is usually very limited and expensive time with their horses. Instead, you are basically saying that he's a toddler and will scream and wander, and others just have to suck it up even if it makes them uncomfortable or anxious.

I like to think that we no longer live in a world where being a female automatically means that you are expected to like children and be maternal. I think the wide variation of responses from people who love kids and people who really don't like them is actually quite encouraging. It's good to know that there are people who don't like children and don't feel pressured into having to pretend they do. It's equally good to know that there are people who love them and are comfortable with being maternal. 



Farma said:



			People have families its the most natural thing in the world and not to want children around is amazing to me.
		
Click to expand...

I think this is really short sighted, to be honest. It isn't natural for everyone, and not everything that is natural must automatically be right. There is nothing wrong with not wanting or being able to have a traditional family.


----------



## ILuvCowparsely (22 November 2017)

SpringArising said:



			I find it strange how so many people have such little empathy towards kids. You were one once, don't forget that.
		
Click to expand...

and? your point is? 


Just because we were kids once does not mean we have to like children or have to put up with children screaming and upsetting other liveries who go to spend quality time with their horses away from work and home, and they don't want more noise and disturbance at the one place they have sanctuary.

If they are well behaved and are closely watched by the parents that is one thing, it is the other parents who just let the kids run round, making sand castles in the arena.  Making too much noise screaming crying shouting.


----------



## FinkleyAlex (22 November 2017)

I don't mind supervised kids with their parent(s), or babies in prams in a safe place...what I can't stand is groups of older kids/teens running around, screaming and shouting while I'm trying to school a green horse.


----------



## laura_nash (22 November 2017)

Before I had my daughter I was totally non-maternal and had my horse on a yard with mostly adults.  We had one younger owner for a short while but she didn't stay long as she just wasn't right for the yard - we were friendly enough with her but didn't really want to help her tack up if she couldn't do it on her own etc.  I probably wouldn't have been happy about a toddler around, I was the one that quietly left the room when someone bought their baby / toddler into work to show them off.  I think that is fair enough and don't see why people should all be expected to love kids all their lives.  

The people on that yard were great when my daughter came along and really helped me out, but I would never have expected them to put up with anything that would detract from their enjoyment of their own horse and my daughter was always kept under very close control.  Any close contact or interaction with the horses was tightly controlled.  As my daughter started walking it did become more awkward to achieve that.

That was when I moved to a totally different type of yard on a farm where many of the liveries (and the YO) had younger kids.  The horses were generally more laid back and they had some very kid-friendly mini's and smaller ponies.  The yard had areas where the kids could play together, e.g. a "sand pit" type area outside the arena.  On that yard the odd toddler tantrum etc was easier to deal with and kids with excess energy could usually be diverted to play elsewhere, though they still had to do as they were told when it mattered.

So I guess what I am trying to say is it depends on the yard, and I don't think it is right to assume that there is no problem taking your toddler to any yard (unless you have another adult along to look after them who can take them away if needed).


----------



## ILuvCowparsely (22 November 2017)

Antw23uk said:



			Far far from it, its a wonderful peaceful life. Never feel sorry for someone who doesnt want or like kids. We are far more lucky than those with that responsibility hanging round there necks like a heavy weight!

I'm trying not to be but I do find myself becoming a bit of a 'breeder hater' but I've always been against unnecessary breeding of animals. I mean with so many animals in rescues up and down the country why would you ever need to breed .... It was only a matter of time before I thought the same about humans. Like the world isnt overpopulated enough already!!
		
Click to expand...

 I am with you, I have never been maternal and never will be.  MY husband and I never wanted kids,  I want to live my life to the fullest and not spend the best part of 16 years running around  after children.  I  love  being able to do what I like when I like.   I would not change it for the world.

 Well behaved ones on the yard  is fine as long as they do not upset or annoy other livery owners. 





			Farma 
People have families its the most natural thing in the world and not to want children around is amazing to me.
		
Click to expand...

  Well be amazed then it is not natural for me,  there are many people who do not want to be around children or have them.  I think I only held my niece once she is 28 now  and it felt unnatural to me and never held her any more or her brother or sister.  I love them dearly but holding a baby *shudders*  no thank you I bow out of this one.

 I don't think you can really say it is natural to have children around when so many don't want them,  each to their own and if you are maternal, good on you but to make those who chose not to or are not maternal feel like outcast is unfair.


----------



## AlohaCob (23 November 2017)

ILuvCowparsely said:



			I am with you, I have never been maternal and never will be.  MY husband and I never wanted kids,  I want to live my life to the fullest and not spend the best part of 16 years running around  after children.  I  love  being able to do what I like when I like.   I would not change it for the world.

 Well behaved ones on the yard  is fine as long as they do not upset or annoy other livery owners. 


  Well be amazed then it is not natural for me,  there are many people who do not want to be around children or have them.  I think I only held my niece once she is 28 now  and it felt unnatural to me and never held her any more or her brother or sister.  I love them dearly but holding a baby *shudders*  no thank you I bow out of this one.

 I don't think you can really say it is natural to have children around when so many don't want them,  each to their own and if you are maternal, good on you but to make those who chose not to or are not maternal feel like outcast is unfair.
		
Click to expand...

Count me in with the non maternal crowd.  The barn where my new boy is at has some younger kids but they come for their horse or lesson, and are not a bother at all, which is wonderful.  The teens at this barn are all really nice.  However, the first barn I was at with my old mare was also a riding school, and we had all ages.  The parents would bring siblings while the other darlings had a lesson, and those kids were bored, and would race around like lunatics.  Worse still was when they had birthday 'pony parties'.  After the pony rides, they had lunch/games and cake in a designated area, which was okay, but the parents and barn staff never enforced the rule, so we had kids running all over the place.  This is Hawaii, so the barns are all open are 'pipe' barns, and I found kids in stalls.  One stole hay from my mares stall to give to the horse next to her.  I was giving her a bath at the time, so she hadn't had a chance to eat the lunch hay.  It was ridiculous.  I actually do enjoy children at times, but the constant coming and going of the kids and the absolute lack of the parent's giving a rap about what they were up to was beyond annoying.  I left that place and it was the best move ever.  i really do not like parents who feel their kids have the right to run rampant anywhere with no regard to others or even their own safety.


----------



## Abi90 (23 November 2017)

I'm so glad I'm not the only non maternal one. What I hear a lot is "people should be more empathetic towards kids and parents when they react". To a certain extent I understand this, for example, in a supermarket there is nothing you can do about it. But kids screaming on planes and running round the aisles is really annoying, if you are going to visit relatives then fair enough, but if you're on that plane because you wanted a foreign Holiday but your children don't like flying (possibly because it makes their ears hurt and they don't understand), don't put them in that situation and have a holiday in the UK. After spending 6 hours on a plane with a child kicking the back of my seat the entire time and his Mum saying "oh he's just 5 so there's not much I can do", then his sister screaming and getting "oh she gets ear ache and doesn't like flying"... then why have you put her on a plane when it hurts her and she's too young to understand! 

I know I'm probably going to get bashed for this and told "we'll just because I've had a child doesn't mean I shouldn't get a holiday"... well it was a choice, and you make sacrifices for children. I don't get to go on foreign holidays because I bought a horse. No one is entitled to go jet setting. 

In fact, I actually agree with what others have said, it's not the children per se, but the way some people choose to manage them.


----------



## Jack110 (23 November 2017)

Abi90 said:



			I'm so glad I'm not the only non maternal one. What I hear a lot is "people should be more empathetic towards kids and parents when they react". To a certain extent I understand this, for example, in a supermarket there is nothing you can do about it. But kids screaming on planes and running round the aisles is really annoying, if you are going to visit relatives then fair enough, but if you're on that plane because you wanted a foreign Holiday but your children don't like flying (possibly because it makes their ears hurt and they don't understand), don't put them in that situation and have a holiday in the UK. After spending 6 hours on a plane with a child kicking the back of my seat the entire time and his Mum saying "oh he's just 5 so there's not much I can do", then his sister screaming and getting "oh she gets ear ache and doesn't like flying"... then why have you put her on a plane when it hurts her and she's too young to understand! 

I know I'm probably going to get bashed for this and told "we'll just because I've had a child doesn't mean I shouldn't get a holiday"... well it was a choice, and you make sacrifices for children. I don't get to go on foreign holidays because I bought a horse. No one is entitled to go jet setting. 

In fact, I actually agree with what others have said, it's not the children per se, but the way some people choose to manage them.
		
Click to expand...

Full support from me, it is the parents.  My friends have all managed to raise polite well mannered children and would never let them behave badly infront of other people. If you take your children out at least try to make sure they behave. If kids come to my yard they are read the riot act no running, screaming and they must do what I tell them.  They are always good as gold, even little ones they just have to know you mean it.


----------



## Red-1 (23 November 2017)

Oh I have sympathy Abi90 with the plane scenario. We flew back from Venice and had 2 small kids behind us. Both yelled and whinged the entire flight. 

I did not mind the screaming on take off and landing so much, that was through pain/ weird feeling in ears. That is understandable. It was the constant yelling Muuuuum, Muuuuum, How long now? Muuuuuum, Muuuuuum, can I have a drink. Muuuuuum, Muuuuum, I want to sit by the window. et al.(have they never heard of 'indoor voices'?) and the kicking of the seats. 

I felt most sorry for the couple next to me who were returning from their honeymoon. She was constantly kicked in the back, the entire flight. At times he was also leaning over the seat and pulling the lady's hair. The parents were politely spoken to, and they claimed to not be able to do anything about it, he is only young. The kids were perhaps 4 and 6. 

To add insult to injury at the end of the flight the father turned to the mother and congratulated everyone on their good behaviour!!!

Compare this with the very polite young man on Etihad Airlines 

[video]https://www.facebook.com/kamau.pharis.79/videos/2370566769835937/[/video]

Now that is a young man whose parents have paid attention and answered questions.

I was recently in a curry house with a friend, and a lady at the next table was with 2 kids, on her phone playing a game the entire time. Poor kids had no one to talk to, so ran around, stomped food into the floor, screeched etc. She also told them that they were good girls!

ETA - I went to restaurants from a very early age, I would never have got up from my seat without permission, and whoever was with me (child of a single mum) would talk to me and engage me in the conversation, so I did not have to do the Muuuuuum thing. I guess they may have wanted to talk about something more adult, but if we were in public they would tailor the conversation so I was involved. It is only what you would do with another adult who had different interests, you would find common ground, not ignore the other person.


----------



## Jack110 (23 November 2017)

Red-1 said:



			Oh I have sympathy Abi90 with the plane scenario. We flew back from Venice and had 2 small kids behind us. Both yelled and whinged the entire flight. 

I did not mind the screaming on take off and landing so much, that was through pain/ weird feeling in ears. That is understandable. It was the constant yelling Muuuuum, Muuuuum, How long now? Muuuuuum, Muuuuuum, can I have a drink. Muuuuuum, Muuuuum, I want to sit by the window. et al.(have they never heard of 'indoor voices'?) and the kicking of the seats.

I felt most sorry for the couple next to me who were returning from their honeymoon. She was constantly kicked in the back, the entire flight. The parents were politely spoken to, and they claimed to not be able to do anything about it.

To add insult to injury at the end of the flight the father turned to the mother and congratulated everyone on their good behaviour!!!
		
Click to expand...

O my god my worst nightmare, I have been know to talk directly to the children.  I never mind if the parents try to correct the kids, it's the ones who abdicated responsibility and say they can't do anything, try smacking their backside usually works&#55357;&#56865;&#55357;&#56865;


----------



## Farma (23 November 2017)

LadyGascoyne said:



			I don't understand being shocked. Why should it be expected that people tolerate other people's children? If someone decides to have a child, that is lovely for them but it doesn't give them the right to expect everyone else to enjoy its company. 

Your quote above makes me understand why you're not getting entirely positive reactions. It comes across quite entitled. Yes, you cannot bind and gag him, but you can stop bringing him to a livery yard where others are trying to enjoy what is usually very limited and expensive time with their horses. Instead, you are basically saying that he's a toddler and will scream and wander, and others just have to suck it up even if it makes them uncomfortable or anxious.

I like to think that we no longer live in a world where being a female automatically means that you are expected to like children and be maternal. I think the wide variation of responses from people who love kids and people who really don't like them is actually quite encouraging. It's good to know that there are people who don't like children and don't feel pressured into having to pretend they do. It's equally good to know that there are people who love them and are comfortable with being maternal. 



I think this is really short sighted, to be honest. It isn't natural for everyone, and not everything that is natural must automatically be right. There is nothing wrong with not wanting or being able to have a traditional family.
		
Click to expand...

Of course I don't think everyone should want a family or have a family, but I do think there should be some understanding towards people that do, it is a natural thing, not something odd that should then isolate mums that do *god forbid* take their child with them to places where there are predominantly adults, the same when I am on a yard of mixed people I have to understand and tolerate all different types of people with mixed experience, knowledge and abilities and the challenges that can bring. I don't own my own yard, therefore I have to accept there will be a mix of others that all have to get along.

You say I could stop taking my child to the stables so people don't have to pay lots of money for their horses for it to be affected by my child, this is the response I cant believe, what should I do sell my horse? My child barely comes with me but there is times he has to as I cant just get childcare so readily!

If I come across entitled then so be it, it doesn't seem a lot to me to be able to take my child now and again to the yard, the negative attitudes have never been toward me directly just things I have heard from others now that now I am a mum that have shocked me, having a child whilst having horses has certainly been an eye opener, a world that I have always enjoyed and worked hard in suddenly seems a lot less enjoyable and welcoming and that's a massive shame.


----------



## hobo (23 November 2017)

Antw23uk said:



			We had kids on the last yard I was on. The owner was a family friend of the YO's and they used to race up and down the yard (indoor spacious barn stables) on small kid tractors and god knows what else. I dislike children and dont see the point in them. The only use they had was to de sensitise the horse to stupid kid things but an accident waiting to happen.

God i hate kids!! Ergghhhhhh

If you have a horse WHY OH WHY would you want to get up the duff and produce a brat!!!! Horses are sooo much better.
		
Click to expand...

Love this post....


----------



## Tiddlypom (23 November 2017)

Farma, how do you manage your child when you take him to the stables? 

Some noise and chatter is fine, and anyone objecting to that is IMHO just being miserable :rolleyes3:. As said upthread by many, it's the unsupervised bored shrieking kids racing around near other peoples' horses and creating havoc on the yard which is the issue for most.


----------



## Farma (23 November 2017)

Tiddlypom said:



			Farma, how do you manage your child when you take him to the stables? 

Some noise and chatter is fine, and anyone objecting to that is IMHO just being miserable :rolleyes3:. As said upthread by many, it's the unsupervised bored shrieking kids racing around near other peoples' horses and creating havoc on the yard which is the issue for most.
		
Click to expand...

Mine is in a pram, he literally only comes if he has to, I walk the horse to the field with him occasionally and that's fine, when I muck out he goes in the stable with me to 'help', and if its clear can walk to the muck heap and back, that's it, he will sometimes have a sit on the horse while I hold him and he loves it! 
He doesn't run around, make loads of noise or go near anyone else's horse, BUT he can occasionally have a moan if he wants to get out or wants to try and get in the water bucket while he is in the stable, things like that. Like I say nobody has ever moaned about him as such its more the doors that have closed to me since having him and things I have heard. I needed to move yards and simply am not welcome at several nice places if he needs to ever come with me and as I say having been a livery at lovely yards my whole life and had kids around it was a huge surprise to me! I have always had competition horses and lived my life at numerous huge showgrounds and never thought about it! People have kids its just part of being around people I thought!
Even at bd camp there were a few children and buggies, I didn't take my child but didn't mind them at all and I am sure a lot of people go there for a break!
To me having the horse takes a lot of our family money and its nice to have family time there were he can enjoy the outdoors.
I understand the people that don't want loads of kids creating havoc, nobody wants that, but it does seem that it goes further than that for a lot of people and that's what I had no idea about until I had one of my own.


----------



## ILuvCowparsely (23 November 2017)

Red-1 said:



			Oh I have sympathy Abi90 with the plane scenario. We flew back from Venice and had 2 small kids behind us. Both yelled and whinged the entire flight. 

I did not mind the screaming on take off and landing so much, that was through pain/ weird feeling in ears. That is understandable. It was the constant yelling Muuuuum, Muuuuum, How long now? Muuuuuum, Muuuuuum, can I have a drink. Muuuuuum, Muuuuum, I want to sit by the window. et al.(have they never heard of 'indoor voices'?) and the kicking of the seats. 

I felt most sorry for the couple next to me who were returning from their honeymoon. She was constantly kicked in the back, the entire flight. At times he was also leaning over the seat and pulling the lady's hair. The parents were politely spoken to, and they claimed to not be able to do anything about it, he is only young. The kids were perhaps 4 and 6. 

To add insult to injury at the end of the flight the father turned to the mother and congratulated everyone on their good behaviour!!!

Compare this with the very polite young man on Etihad Airlines 

[video]https://www.facebook.com/kamau.pharis.79/videos/2370566769835937/[/video]

Now that is a young man whose parents have paid attention and answered questions.

I was recently in a curry house with a friend, and a lady at the next table was with 2 kids, on her phone playing a game the entire time. Poor kids had no one to talk to, so ran around, stomped food into the floor, screeched etc. She also told them that they were good girls!

ETA - I went to restaurants from a very early age, I would never have got up from my seat without permission, and whoever was with me (child of a single mum) would talk to me and engage me in the conversation, so I did not have to do the Muuuuuum thing. I guess they may have wanted to talk about something more adult, but if we were in public they would tailor the conversation so I was involved. It is only what you would do with another adult who had different interests, you would find common ground, not ignore the other person.
		
Click to expand...

Oh red -1 I empathise with you 
  I know that so well, when we queue up at the airport and see lots of kids we think god I hope that isn't on our flight.   Two  or three years ago a group of 4 sets of twins were sitting behind us. I was not aware of this till about 15 minutes into the flight, when thump thump thump........... thump thump thump...............  a  thump thump  thump thump thump.thump............... thump thump thump..  Then I in no gentle manner jerked back in my seat to get the message across.  thump thump thump.         thump thump thump.  thump thump thump thump thump thump..  scream  yell thump thump thump.      15 further minutes of thumping   dirty glares from me   thump thump thump. thump thump thump. thump thump thump. thump thump thump.   scream  loud laughing .  Me who avoids any shouting in real life - can hold my temper even when someone shouting and screaming at me  lost it and lent over my seat and said **STOP KICKING MY SEAT*.       1/2 hr went by   thump thump thump. thump thump thump. laughing  thump thump thump. thump thump thump..  More dirty glares.   Hubby got up and said to the man a  in the aisle seat ( part of the group)  Can you stop kicking my wife's chair!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The last 1/2 and hour of a 4  1/2 flight was peaceful, only to start again screaming from 8 kids all the way to the baggage area .

 I cringe every-time I see kids queuing up  to check in.


I have also be known to walk out the shop which had screaming kids in .


  The funniest to tell is when I worked at Tesco,s and one evening a kid was screaming and yelling for something it wanted right down in the  cake aisle  and continued up and down the aisle through frozen through the washing and household then through the drinks.  By the time it got near wines and spirits I was in the warehouse till it went down the cakes  coffee cereal etc down to the front.   It was just like AIRPLANE  film with the top fin coming through the clouds and that jaws music.


----------



## milliepops (23 November 2017)

Tiddlypom said:



			Farma, how do you manage your child when you take him to the stables? 

Some noise and chatter is fine, and anyone objecting to that is IMHO just being miserable :rolleyes3:. As said upthread by many, it's the unsupervised bored shrieking kids racing around near other peoples' horses and creating havoc on the yard which is the issue for most.
		
Click to expand...

^^ this. 
I think many of us who would prefer not to have children on a yard have previously experienced that shrieking chaos and needing to have eyes in the back of our heads.. and that affects how you then feel about other - maybe perfectly well behaved - children in the future. Once bitten, & all that.


----------



## mother_of_poniesx (23 November 2017)

We had kids on the last yard I was on. The owner was a family friend of the YO's and they used to race up and down the yard (indoor spacious barn stables) on small kid tractors and god knows what else. I dislike children and dont see the point in them. The only use they had was to de sensitise the horse to stupid kid things but an accident waiting to happen.

God i hate kids!! Ergghhhhhh

If you have a horse WHY OH WHY would you want to get up the duff and produce a brat!!!! Horses are sooo much better
		
Click to expand...

Oh how I wish this forum had a like button 

I'm not overly fond of children myself. I certainly don't want any of my own! My partner has a daughter with his ex, and while I'm happy to see her, sometimes I'm even happier to take her back home


----------



## GemG (23 November 2017)

Oh dear, there's a lot of kid hate going in here.

Now, first things first, it's not the kids that are the problem..  it's the parent(s)/person in charge of them, or lack of in some cases.  I see this in all walks of life. 

Whilst some of us can be as anti kid as we like, we were all kids at one stage and I (and I'm sure many if you) wouldn't be where I am on my horse journey now, with the experience I have, without some very lovely 'adults' who let me have access to their pride and joys when I was one of those annoying horsey kids.


----------



## ILuvCowparsely (23 November 2017)

GemG said:



			Oh dear, there's a lot of kid hate going in here.

Now, first things first, it's not the kids that are the problem..  it's the parent(s)/person in charge of them, or lack of in some cases.  I see this in all walks of life. 

Whilst some of us can be as anti kid as we like, we were all kids at one stage and I (and I'm sure many if you) wouldn't be where I am on my horse journey now, with the experience I have, without some very lovely 'adults' who let me have access to their pride and joys when I was one of those annoying horsey kids.
		
Click to expand...

We have already said  we would not be here without our parents conception - but that does not in anyway mean we are born loving kids and wanting them.  I have never been maternal and never wanted kids , where as my sisters have.  We all have the same parents but we are born different with different values and different expectations and different choices.


   I think there are too many gadgets in this world and kids spend more time on them than playing games and cycling, so kids  learn aggression - defiance-  chat back- dis respectfulness   on many of these so call electronic babysitters.   WE played outside - had boundaries - never disrespected my parents.  The odd smack on the bum or the back of the legs never turned me into   a child whose parents were done for reprimanding me this way.   Youngsters well teens went off to fight for their country, old ladies felt safer in their house or walking down the street.



  I see my youngest niece 3 times a year when we travel to my sister, I rarely get a hello, no thank you form the present.  They spend most of the time on the electronic games, yes my sister is wrong imo  to let them.  You would think they wanted to say hello to us or have a chat but no  games are more important. 

 In car videos - they are another pet peeve = another baby sitter.

 We spent out car journey making names out of licence plates seeing how many   red cars or such we see etc.  This is education imo and make kids aware of their surroundings and thinking of word making out or car plates - travel games like scrabble  or draughts instead of head down watching mindless programmes and cartoons,  heads down the whole journey


Kids have it easy no no telling off  - electronic games on tap.     Electronic games = the babysitters of 2017.


----------



## GemG (23 November 2017)

ILuvCowparsely said:



			We have already said  we would not be here without our parents conception - but that does not in anyway mean we are born loving kids and wanting them.  I have never been maternal and never wanted kids , where as my sisters have.  We all have the same parents but we are born different with different values and different expectations and different choices.

   I think there are too many gadgets in this world and kids spend more time on them than playing games and cycling, so kids  learn aggression - defiance-  chat back- dis respectfulness   on many of these so call electronic babysitters.   WE played outside - had boundaries - never disrespected my parents.  The odd smack on the bum or the back of the legs never turned me into   a child whose parents were done for reprimanding me this way.   Youngsters well teens went off to fight for their country, old ladies felt safer in their house or walking down the street.



  I see my youngest niece 3 times a year when we travel to my sister, I rarely get a hello, no thank you form the present.  They spend most of the time on the electronic games, yes my sister is wrong imo  to let them.  You would think they wanted to say hello to us or have a chat but no  games are more important. 

 In car videos - they are another pet peeve = another baby sitter.

 We spent out car journey making names out of licence plates seeing how many   red cars or such we see etc.  This is education imo and make kids aware of their surroundings and thinking of word making out or car plates - travel games like scrabble  or draughts instead of head down watching mindless programmes and cartoons,  heads down the whole journey


Kids have it easy no no telling off  - electronic games on tap.     Electronic games = the babysitters of 2017.
		
Click to expand...


I never said you or anyone should have kids/want kids/be maternal.

Edited to add.. yes, absolutely, there are some horrible brats out there, equally there are some lovely, bright and respectful little people.


----------



## SEL (23 November 2017)

I actually like kids on a yard - providing they are well behaved! 

I've been on yards since I was 4 years old but bad behaviour was not tolerated when I was a little one. If I was told not to go near a certain horse then I wouldn't, I didn't touch anything I wasn't allowed to and I was very respectful of adults. Mainly because I wouldn't have been allowed back if I had misbehaved and the pony addiction had well and truly set in by then. 

I suspect most of the people coming across as kiddie-haters on here just dislike being around badly behaved ones who are pandered to by their parents rather than kids in general! If livery yards won't have kids on them then it will be because they or their customers have had bad experiences in the past. So rather than moan about the yard just make sure your kids don't turn into those little monsters that get a bad reputation.


----------



## asmp (23 November 2017)

We used to have a lady on our yard with two well behaved children BUT she didn't think to tell them off when they used to climb the large haylage bales and sit on them.  Not only were they possibly damaging the bales by making holes in them, there was the risk of the bales falling (and possible killing the children).


----------



## Farma (23 November 2017)

SEL said:



			I actually like kids on a yard - providing they are well behaved! 

I've been on yards since I was 4 years old but bad behaviour was not tolerated when I was a little one. If I was told not to go near a certain horse then I wouldn't, I didn't touch anything I wasn't allowed to and I was very respectful of adults. Mainly because I wouldn't have been allowed back if I had misbehaved and the pony addiction had well and truly set in by then. 

I suspect most of the people coming across as kiddie-haters on here just dislike being around badly behaved ones who are pandered to by their parents rather than kids in general! If livery yards won't have kids on them then it will be because they or their customers have had bad experiences in the past. So rather than moan about the yard just make sure your kids don't turn into those little monsters that get a bad reputation.
		
Click to expand...

So if you had a child now, a perfectly normal and well cared for child and you had to leave your yard because others had bad experiences previously or you couldn't find a decent yard because people didn't want someone with a child being a livery, that wouldn't offend you in any way? You wouldn't feel that as a previously welcomed and good customer that has never caused a days problem, suddenly ostracized in a community you have been a big part of?


----------



## pippixox (23 November 2017)

Downton Dame said:



			much s we all love our horses I would have thought that mothers could tear themselves away for a few hours to give birth in a maternity unit. ( Having children on yards)---Sorry I couldn't resist LOL
		
Click to expand...

haha, funny you should say that. I was on labor giving my horses their dinner!


----------



## GemG (23 November 2017)

In reply to the original post though... I suppose it's horses for courses.  Some people want yards with kids included, some don't.   I have two young children and they are kept on a tight rein... (at all times) but I know other parents don't.   I also have a stallion and youngster to contend with.  I am so careful as I am terrified of them getting squashed/kicked.   Although the kids have inadvertently made my youngster more tolerant of strange/sudden noises certainly.    I don't want them annoying other liveries though, so don't let them.  Incidentally they (horses) are less hassle than the kids!  

There's no right/wrong about whether a yard should or shouldn't allow kids.   it's the last thing some people want to see after a stressful day when it's their hobby/downtime. Other have to bring /include kids because they have chosen to have a family and keeps horses also.   If I didn't have the horses I would probably lose my sanity with just the kids.


----------



## pippixox (23 November 2017)

it does depend on the yard set up and type
I take my baby (now about 15 months) to the yard twice a day every day as I am DIY- I'm just renting land and a barn and there are a few other people there too, 2 with children, 2 without. I wish I didn't have to take him with me but my husband works very long hours. I wont give up my horses.

The kids have an area with lots of toys to play in, but they are all taught from a very young age to listen and where to stand out of the way ect. We try and be considerate with each other.

I happily help out with the other children- I may entertain my friends 2-4 year olds while she is sorting out one of her horses, then she may push my baby around if he is getting impatient......

however- I completely understand peoples annoyance- I love my horses and sometimes go to the yard for some piece and quiet and don't want to end up babysitting! Children should not have free reign- horses are the priority


----------



## Merlod (23 November 2017)

Antw23uk said:



			I dislike children and dont see the point in them. The only use they had was to de sensitise the horse to stupid kid things but an accident waiting to happen.

God i hate kids!! Ergghhhhhh

If you have a horse WHY OH WHY would you want to get up the duff and produce a brat!!!! Horses are sooo much better.
		
Click to expand...

Absolutely 100% this!!


----------



## Pinkvboots (23 November 2017)

I really don't mind kids I tend to hack out with kids more than I do with adults, I actually find that children with ponies are no trouble at all they just want to get on and get there pony done, but kids that tend to just have to go along with mum are the ones that get up to no good as they are bored and don't really want to be there.

I do think some parents expect kids to spend an awful amount of time at yards, I remember years ago I worked at a yard were one livery spent all day every day with her horse, then at 3pm would go and pick her daughter up and expect the poor little thing to sit in the car in winter for another 2 hours while she fafed about doing good god knows what's with the horse, I remember hearing the little girl crying this particular night was freezing, I did ask her why she came back after being at the yard all day to spend further hours doing god knows what, she said it was so the horse could stay out until 4.30 which I find crazy so the poor kid has to sit around and freeze so the horse gets an extra hour in the field.

I have also seen some kids almost get run over at a yard because they are allowed to just run around like lunatics not being watched, I have also been on a yard which has had business units at the back of the place so there is a lot of traffic in and out with strangers driving onto the yard yet kids were left unattended which is just plain stupid as it's just as bad as leaving them to walk the street.


----------



## hopscotch bandit (23 November 2017)

If kids are well behaved then its fine, but if you have to tell them a thousand times not to run down the aisle or bash a toy car on the side of a ménage fence whilst a 4 year old baby is being backed, or tell them not to keep walking behind horses bottoms then I think they shouldn't be on a yard. Its okay saying 'if they are supervised' but lets face it, most people wouldn't be able to multitask mucking out, grooming, tacking up and riding with small children running amok which isn't really surprising given the circumstances. Not that I have anything against kids, and my horse wouldn't care if they did all three of those things with her.She's trusting to the extreme! Having said that I know of someone who used to take her baby down to the ménage in the basket (or whatever its called) and leave it safe the other side of the fence whilst she rode and he was fine. When she was older she was in a pram and later a pushchair. Although I would bet odds of 1000 to 1 on my horse not kicking a child no horse is 100% bomb proof and I wouldn't forgive myself if anything happened to another persons kid(s) as a result of my horse kicking out in fright.


----------



## ester (23 November 2017)

GemG said:



			Oh dear, there's a lot of kid hate going in here.

Now, first things first, it's not the kids that are the problem..  it's the parent(s)/person in charge of them, or lack of in some cases.  I see this in all walks of life. 

Whilst some of us can be as anti kid as we like, we were all kids at one stage and I (and I'm sure many if you) wouldn't be where I am on my horse journey now, with the experience I have, without some very lovely 'adults' who let me have access to their pride and joys when I was one of those annoying horsey kids.
		
Click to expand...

See I think there are two things here. 
As stated I am perfectly happy to have kids round to come and play with my ponies, as I would have loved someone to do for me when I was a kid. 
For me that is entirely different scenario to having kids around a yard every evening and weekend when I am very much in need of some 'quiet time' in order to recharge for the following day. I select spaces for being 'adult spaces' I presume those with children select spaces for being 'family friendly'. 

As you say, you were one of those annoying horsey kids, as has been said several times the horsey ones are not generally annoying, the ones who have been dragged down there because there mum is there and they have to do the horse whatever the weather are the ones that tend to be annoying.


----------



## Rowreach (23 November 2017)

pippixox said:



			haha, funny you should say that. I was on labor giving my horses their dinner!
		
Click to expand...

I was in labour when the horse walker fixer came to change the motor on it - no way was I going to be without the walker in the middle of winter when I'd just given birth   I kept telling him to hurry up so I could get to the hospital.  He didn't hang about


----------



## SEL (23 November 2017)

Farma said:



			So if you had a child now, a perfectly normal and well cared for child and you had to leave your yard because others had bad experiences previously or you couldn't find a decent yard because people didn't want someone with a child being a livery, that wouldn't offend you in any way? You wouldn't feel that as a previously welcomed and good customer that has never caused a days problem, suddenly ostracized in a community you have been a big part of?
		
Click to expand...

There are always yards around where kids are welcome - often those attached to riding schools. Your child may have perfect manners and be incredibly well behaved but sadly many are not and YOs have the right to respect the wish of their clients to have adult only spaces. It isn't those clients that have reduced your options but other parents. 

Is your current YO actually asking you to leave the yard because of your child?


----------



## Apercrumbie (23 November 2017)

Young children are tricky to have around yards as they can't really be physically restrained in a pram for long periods and therefore they can quite easily put themselves in dangerous situations. I would feel so awful if my horse kicked a child, even if it wasn't the horse's fault. Well supervised children helping out their parents with chores can be a delight, as can be little children with their own ponies. I would also appreciate the help in spook-busting, provided that little ones didn't get too close to the horses legs!


----------



## Merlod (23 November 2017)

Farma said:



			So if you had a child now, a perfectly normal and well cared for child and you had to leave your yard because others had bad experiences previously or you couldn't find a decent yard because people didn't want someone with a child being a livery, that wouldn't offend you in any way? You wouldn't feel that as a previously welcomed and good customer that has never caused a days problem, suddenly ostracized in a community you have been a big part of?
		
Click to expand...

If you were an otherwise good tenant who rented a house that didn't allow pets and one day you decided to buy a puppy would you expect the landlord to change the rules to suit you?

Not to mention the fact that it may ostracize all the other good liveries who have chosen the yard on the basis that it is child free.


----------



## ihatework (23 November 2017)

Farma said:



			So if you had a child now, a perfectly normal and well cared for child and you had to leave your yard because others had bad experiences previously or you couldn't find a decent yard because people didn't want someone with a child being a livery, that wouldn't offend you in any way? You wouldn't feel that as a previously welcomed and good customer that has never caused a days problem, suddenly ostracized in a community you have been a big part of?
		
Click to expand...

When you say ostracized what do you mean? I had the impression no one had bought it up as an issue?

As a non maternal member of society, I can tolerate well behave children (or actually what I mean is well parented children - I can forgive the odd episode of bad behaviour if it&#8217;s clear the parent is doing their best).

BUT I generally have little time for children I&#8217;m not acquainted with. I find new parents rather Rose tinted and the topic of conversation about mostly the little darling I have no interest in. Therefore unless close family/friend I generally gravitate away from what are quite often over bearing mothers.

Are you sure you aren&#8217;t just being a bit over sensitive - liveries might not want to interact with your child in their downtime, and the easiest way to avoid that is to distance themselves.

Plus us horse people are generally a bit odd, let&#8217;s face it


----------



## Apercrumbie (23 November 2017)

ihatework said:



			Plus us horse people are generally a bit odd, lets face it
		
Click to expand...

I think many of the queries and problems on this forum could be answered with this


----------



## KittenInTheTree (23 November 2017)

Farma said:



			Mine is in a pram, he literally only comes if he has to, I walk the horse to the field with him occasionally and that's fine, when I muck out he goes in the stable with me to 'help', and if its clear can walk to the muck heap and back, that's it, he will sometimes have a sit on the horse while I hold him and he loves it! 
He doesn't run around, make loads of noise or go near anyone else's horse, BUT he can occasionally have a moan if he wants to get out or wants to try and get in the water bucket while he is in the stable, things like that. Like I say nobody has ever moaned about him as such its more the doors that have closed to me since having him and things I have heard. I needed to move yards and simply am not welcome at several nice places if he needs to ever come with me and as I say having been a livery at lovely yards my whole life and had kids around it was a huge surprise to me! I have always had competition horses and lived my life at numerous huge showgrounds and never thought about it! People have kids its just part of being around people I thought!
Even at bd camp there were a few children and buggies, I didn't take my child but didn't mind them at all and I am sure a lot of people go there for a break!
To me having the horse takes a lot of our family money and its nice to have family time there were he can enjoy the outdoors.
I understand the people that don't want loads of kids creating havoc, nobody wants that, but it does seem that it goes further than that for a lot of people and that's what I had no idea about until I had one of my own.
		
Click to expand...

Clearly the allegedly nice places where you and your well behaved, correctly parented child are unwelcome, are simply not that nice at all. Try to think of their doors being closed to you both as a lucky escape


----------



## Sleipnir (23 November 2017)

I keep my horse in a yard with a lesson program, so there is a fair amount of kids around and the YO has two young children herself. However, they are all always monitored by their parents or instructors, are well behaved, quiet and tend to their lesson ponies well, so I am in no way bothered and never spare an advice or a little help if any of them asks for it. 

However, in the past I have experienced horrible, uncontrollable brats running amok the stables, creating dangerous situations (once I even caught two very young girls trying to sit on a horse who had lied down in the field!!) and an intolerable level of noise - I guess there's no need asking why I'm not on there yards anymore (among other reasons)!


----------



## SO1 (23 November 2017)

I like children but I don't like to see unsupervised young children on the yard. If you leave your child in a car or buggy out of your sight then you are potentially putting your child at risk. A loose horse could knock over a buggy or a small child. You should be able to see your young children and get to them quickly should there be an emergency. Yards can be dangerous places.

Unsupervised young children don't just put the child at risk they can make some adults unable to relax as they end up worried about the child getting hurt. Toddlers & babies in prams I think are particularly vulnerable.


----------



## SpringArising (23 November 2017)

ILuvCowparsely said:



			We have already said  we would not be here without our parents conception - but that does not in anyway mean we are born loving kids and wanting them.  I have never been maternal and never wanted kids , where as my sisters have.  We all have the same parents but we are born different with different values and different expectations and different choices.


   I think there are too many gadgets in this world and kids spend more time on them than playing games and cycling, so kids  learn aggression - defiance-  chat back- dis respectfulness   on many of these so call electronic babysitters.   WE played outside - had boundaries - never disrespected my parents.  The odd smack on the bum or the back of the legs never turned me into   a child whose parents were done for reprimanding me this way.   Youngsters well teens went off to fight for their country, old ladies felt safer in their house or walking down the street.



  I see my youngest niece 3 times a year when we travel to my sister, I rarely get a hello, no thank you form the present.  They spend most of the time on the electronic games, yes my sister is wrong imo  to let them.  You would think they wanted to say hello to us or have a chat but no  games are more important. 

 In car videos - they are another pet peeve = another baby sitter.

 We spent out car journey making names out of licence plates seeing how many   red cars or such we see etc.  This is education imo and make kids aware of their surroundings and thinking of word making out or car plates - travel games like scrabble  or draughts instead of head down watching mindless programmes and cartoons,  heads down the whole journey


Kids have it easy no no telling off  - electronic games on tap.     Electronic games = the babysitters of 2017.
		
Click to expand...

Read your post back: are you really surprised they dont want to hang out with you?!


----------



## ILuvCowparsely (23 November 2017)

SpringArising said:



			Read your post back: are you really surprised they don&#8217;t want to hang out with you?!
		
Click to expand...

 SA I don't need to read anything back,  there is nothing I have said or done to make them not want to see us, all I said was I did not want to hold a baby.  How I have been with them since they are past the baby stage has not been discussed so   what you say has nothing to do with family visits.  We have not said or acted inappropriately to them in anyway shape or form, put 2 and two and come up with 6. 
 You are passing judgement on how I feel about other kids.  Not my immediate family


----------



## EventingMum (23 November 2017)

I don't have a problem with well behaved supervised children but the safety aspect of children running round wild is not good. This thread also brought to mind the incident some years ago when a yard owners child was in a pram and, if memory serves me correctly, a vehicle moving bales reversed over the pram killing the baby - there are very few safe places on a yard for a pram to be safe from loose horses etc. I also remember one incident on my own yard when a mother brought a child for a lesson and had a baby in a car seat with her. She put the car seat down in the middle of the yard while she went into the office to pay for the older child's lesson and looked surprised when I swooped in and picked up the seat and took it into the office!


----------



## Sugar_and_Spice (23 November 2017)

Farma said:



			So if you had a child now, a perfectly normal and well cared for child and you had to leave your yard because others had bad experiences previously or you couldn't find a decent yard because people didn't want someone with a child being a livery, that wouldn't offend you in any way? You wouldn't feel that as a previously welcomed and good customer that has never caused a days problem, suddenly ostracized in a community you have been a big part of?
		
Click to expand...

No, I wouldn't be *offended* because it's not personal.  Those yards aren't saying you're not welcome because of *your* children, they're simply saying they don't accept *any* children.  You can't have everything in life and if you're on a yard that is adults only, then decide to have a child, you already know you either need to move yards or never bring the child to the yard.  Like many things in life, having children is a choice.  

If an adult-only yard makes an exception for one person, they're going to be expected to make an exception for other people too.  It only takes one unruly child to ruin the peaceful atmosphere/tidy place/cause safety problems.  Far easier for a YO to simply say NO CHILDREN than to tell a livery to leave because their child is deemed to be too naughty.  Imagine the fallout from that.  Because that would be personal, and "too naughty" is subjective.  

The problem with unruly children is no parent ever admits to having them, everyone's child is a little darling in their own eyes.  It's impossible for the YO's to tell in advance who is a lazy (or perhaps just struggling) parent who will use the yard for their own downtime, leaving their children to do as they like, versus which parents will actually parent their children whilst they're at the yard.  *Everybody* on the yard is a paying customer who deserves good service, not just those people with children.  For some YO's they decide "good service" means a blanket ban on children, to avoid anybody turning up with an unruly one.


----------



## GemG (23 November 2017)

ILuvCowparsely said:



			SA I don't need to read anything back,  there is nothing I have said or done to make them not want to see us, all I said was I did not want to hold a baby.  How I have been with them since they are past the baby stage has not been discussed so   what you say has nothing to do with family visits.  We have not said or acted inappropriately to them in anyway shape or form, put 2 and two and come up with 6. 
 You are passing judgement on how I feel about other kids.  Not my immediate family
		
Click to expand...

Why mention your own immediate family then, what does your relationship (or lack of relationship) with your niece have to do with kids on yards.  ...but seeing as you mentioned it, visit most young child relatives thrice yearly and they won't have much to say to you. If you knew anything about young children you would know that they do want to play games more than 'chat' to older adults who would rather pull their own teeth out than have kids/be with kids/entertain kids.


----------



## GemG (23 November 2017)

Anyway back to the matter in hand... 

Kids on yards, some will be happy/agree, some will bitterly disagree. Depends which side of the fence your on whether the ones with kids should get chucked off, or the ones who don't want to hear/see kids on a yard leave for pastures new.  Surely that's a ,after for the yard owner to decide purely on what they want.

Thankfully (for me) the yard I'm at is child friendly (or as much as it can be when you have the horse-child combo) as yes, I am one of those people who has replicated and created those weird noise making / energy sapping / patience testing things.  The owners of the yard also have a young family themselves, so they understand.   I enjoy sharing my passion with my children (within reason) and they have learnt lots about responsibility/ respect / resilience along the way.


----------



## Farma (23 November 2017)

Sugar_and_Spice said:



			No, I wouldn't be *offended* because it's not personal.  Those yards aren't saying you're not welcome because of *your* children, they're simply saying they don't accept *any* children.  You can't have everything in life and if you're on a yard that is adults only, then decide to have a child, you already know you either need to move yards or never bring the child to the yard.  Like many things in life, having children is a choice.  

If an adult-only yard makes an exception for one person, they're going to be expected to make an exception for other people too.  It only takes one unruly child to ruin the peaceful atmosphere/tidy place/cause safety problems.  Far easier for a YO to simply say NO CHILDREN than to tell a livery to leave because their child is deemed to be too naughty.  Imagine the fallout from that.  Because that would be personal, and "too naughty" is subjective.  

The problem with unruly children is no parent ever admits to having them, everyone's child is a little darling in their own eyes.  It's impossible for the YO's to tell in advance who is a lazy (or perhaps just struggling) parent who will use the yard for their own downtime, leaving their children to do as they like, versus which parents will actually parent their children whilst they're at the yard.  *Everybody* on the yard is a paying customer who deserves good service, not just those people with children.  For some YO's they decide "good service" means a blanket ban on children, to avoid anybody turning up with an unruly one.
		
Click to expand...

Yes I do see your point totally, I think until you have been in my position its hard to understand how it feels to be on the other side of it though.


----------



## Sugar_and_Spice (23 November 2017)

KittenInTheTree said:



			Clearly the allegedly nice places where you and your well behaved, correctly parented child are unwelcome, are simply not that nice at all. Try to think of their doors being closed to you both as a lucky escape 

Click to expand...

Or perhaps those yards are nice *because* they don't allow children.  Depends on your definition of "nice" I guess.  The adult-only yards I've been on have been the tidier, more peaceful, better organized yards.


----------



## ILuvCowparsely (23 November 2017)

GemG said:



			Why mention your own immediate family then, what does your relationship (or lack of relationship) with your niece have to do with kids on yards.  ...but seeing as you mentioned it, visit most young child relatives thrice yearly and they won't have much to say to you. If you knew anything about young children you would know that they do want to play games more than 'chat' to older adults who would rather pull their own teeth out than have kids/be with kids/entertain kids.
		
Click to expand...

  I was using them as examples of how kids  have too many electronic games and pay more attention to them than getting out in the fresh air and exercising. These children are like this with most of the family, they have not been taught to turn off their gadgets when family visit.

 Now returning back to yard children - we have a few that visit and because they are visiting the parents keep them close.  We have on occasions screaming but more often than not this is a child free yard.


----------



## Cecile (23 November 2017)

I have vast amounts of patience with children if they have an interest in horses or animals in general
Children also strangely seem to like me but I make my rules very plain and simple

I was once roped in to stay at pony camp to be a helper and given the most awful caravan to sleep in 
after breakfast in the village hall I would actually find it quite amusing that the gardens had grown sausages or eggs as added plants/ornaments
and I quickly went along collecting the weird leftover food before the villagers found it

However my sister bought a plague for my tack room which reads
Dogs Welcome, all children must be kept on a lead at all times


----------



## Ladyinred (24 November 2017)

I really can see both sides of this. If you pay livery and have children then those children are going to want to see the horse.. only reasonable. OTOH if you pay livery you don't want, or expect, to be either babysitting someones kids, or constantly falling over them. Possibly the answer would be to allow babies and toddlers in prams at any time but restrict visits by 'running around kids' to a couple of sessions a week? Except of course in emergencies.

Mine are all brilliant with children but I know plenty of horses that wouldn't be.. not necessarily because they are nasty but because they are too reactive.

There has to be a happy medium achieved and I don't suggest the woman who had a pony next to mine and who locked her girls( 7 and 9 years old) in his stable to scream the place down while she went off for a ride!! I was tearing my hair out that particular day!


----------



## Casey76 (24 November 2017)

Toddlers, in particular are an uncontrollable hazard. Plus mothers seem to develop selective hearing as soon as they give birth.  I can't stand the whole squalling child thing; it's impossible to have a conversation like a rational adult while you have a small human baying for attention.

If I could find a child free yard I would move in a flash.


----------



## Farma (24 November 2017)

Well if I wasn't bemused at the tolerance of horse people before this thread I definitely am now, lovely to see some supportive and seemingly tolerant folk are around even if they are few and far between!


----------



## tallyho! (24 November 2017)

Farma said:



			Well if I wasn't bemused at the tolerance of horse people before this thread I definitely am now, lovely to see some supportive and seemingly tolerant folk are around even if they are few and far between!
		
Click to expand...

Well said


----------



## ihatework (24 November 2017)

Farma said:



			Well if I wasn't bemused at the tolerance of horse people before this thread I definitely am now, lovely to see some supportive and seemingly tolerant folk are around even if they are few and far between!
		
Click to expand...

Pretend it&#8217;s dogs then. There actually isn&#8217;t much difference if you think about it.
Dogs can be on yards and either be generally left to their own devices to bark, pee on stuff, thieve food, wander behind horses etc.
Dogs can be on yards under close supervision and well trained managed with the consideration of others.
Dogs can be banned from yards.

I&#8217;m probably more dog friendly than I am child friendly.
I really appreciate being on a yard that is Dog tolerant, but I also fully accept yards that ban dogs - not everyone likes them and ultimately I&#8217;m there to stable a horse, not exercise/socialise my dog.


----------



## Nasicus (24 November 2017)

I'm not a fan of kids in general, but I don't mind respectful, well behaved kids on a yard, with attentive parents.
Now, if we could remove dogs from the yard, I certainly wouldn't mind that, and the funny thing is, I like dogs! Just not so much the barking, chewing, urinating on the hay, defecating everywhere kind that yards seem to attract...


----------



## Hanno Verian (24 November 2017)

Sugar_and_Spice said:



			The problem with unruly children is no parent ever admits to having them, everyone's child is a little darling in their own eyes.  It's impossible for the YO's to tell in advance who is a lazy (or perhaps just struggling) parent who will use the yard for their own downtime, leaving their children to do as they like, versus which parents will actually parent their children whilst they're at the yard.  *Everybody* on the yard is a paying customer who deserves good service, not just those people with children.  For some YO's they decide "good service" means a blanket ban on children, to avoid anybody turning up with an unruly one.
		
Click to expand...

That makes perfect sense to me, not everyone wants to share their down time with someone else children well behaved or badly behaved, I've never had the experience of badly behaved children, no one on yards I've been on would ever brought young children and left them unsupervised so that they could run wild. I was on a yard where a family moved their horses onto the yard including their 12 & 14 year old daughters ponies, the children were on best behaviour and an absolute delight. They had been told that they were on a months trial, no-one would have dreamed of complaining about them, there was nothing to complain about.


----------



## ester (24 November 2017)

So what do you do with your unbound and ungagged toddler when you are doing all the jobs with your horse?


----------



## Xtra (24 November 2017)

For me there are kids and kids!!  We have both lots a nice family where the kids are respectful and helpful.  One isn't even really interested in having a horse but will sit and chat for ages with people. I have all the time possible for this type of kid 

The others run screaming and unsupervised and are a hazard and a nuisance.

Wonder how tolerant people would be if they ended up in the same situation as me when I got landed with a vet bill when my horse hurt herself in the stable terrified as the boy played football against her stable wall!


----------



## conniegirl (24 November 2017)

On the yard I am on currently there is 2 sides to the yard. With a road in between, both sides have a school each and similar stable set up. One side children are allowed, the other side they are not!

I am on the side where they are not, although there is the occasional exception for closely supervised well behaved children when childcare arrangements break down.
The side I am on is lovely, quiet and friendly, you can leave stuff out and expect it to be there when you come back from your ride, it is peaceful and relaxing. All the jumps etc are well cared for and any issues with them reported and fixed quickly.
You could not pay me to be on th either side of the yard! Children there run riot and even the kids with ponies of thier own are nightmares
They occasionally come across and use our school, normally leaving jumps all over the place, poos everywhere and seem to have no concept of how to share a school nor do they seem to respect the fact that with a young sharp horse and having a lesson you may want the school to yourself (others from my side of the yard quite happy to work round this, and as a return when they want the school to themselves I leave them too it as they too have some difficult horses). Thier jumps etc the yard owner has given up replacing or repairing as they dont bother looking after them and you cant even leave a headcollar outside of your stable over there.

Ive been over a few times, normally because Im trying to find the yard owner (to pay livery money to her) or when a friend of mine had her horse on that side whilst waiting for a stable on our side. Ive seen horses chased round, youngsters run ragged under the guise of playing with them frankly dangerous riding in the school etc.


----------



## Auslander (24 November 2017)

I don't have any children liveried here, through choice, but some of my liveries have children, and I'd never say they couldn't bring them up. It doesn't happen very often, as both liveries enjoy their child-free time too much! 
I bred one myself, so I'm not anti-kids - but I do like the yard to be quiet and orderly, so I'd be driven a bit nuts by squawking kids and child-style mess. I also like to be able to swear horribly when the urge overcomes me.


----------



## SEL (24 November 2017)

Farma said:



			Yes I do see your point totally, I think until you have been in my position its hard to understand how it feels to be on the other side of it though.
		
Click to expand...

I might have missed it as we're up to 15 pages, but why do you need to leave your current yard?


----------



## pip6 (24 November 2017)

I don't enjoy children on our yard. I thought it was adults only but they bring their young kids down. I asked a child to stop running in front my horses stable waving a whip, next day I found my feed bowl cover had been stabbed through with a sharp instrument (by coincidence the previous evening said child had been cutting up carrots for her pony after I'd spoken to her....extreme coincidence). I'm fed up of screeching babies and toddlers. I work in a school of over 1500 kids all day, I don't want to see more kids in my down time, especially when they are a lazy, spoilt brat. Said kid still runs around yard until she sees me watching her, wish her mother would ask her to walk around horses. Ironically they think my horse is wild, good, might make them behave better around her or avoid her. Get sick of seeing babies and young kids perched up on mums horse, no hat or anything, when any horse could spook.


----------



## Hexx (24 November 2017)

I did have to ask one livery to stop her 2-year old child from running UNDER my horse's tummy when he was tied up.

I had only had him a week, so didn't know him at all.  He could have kicked out at her and at the height she was, that would have been a direct contact with the child's head!

The livery was very offended by this!!  We didn't really speak after that, I used to bump into her at various yards or events and always got the cold shoulder.  The daughter is now 21 and doesn't run under horses' tummies any more!!


----------



## Rowreach (24 November 2017)

SEL said:



			I might have missed it as we're up to 15 pages, but why do you need to leave your current yard?
		
Click to expand...

I don't think she does have to leave, unless I missed that bit too.


----------



## KittenInTheTree (24 November 2017)

Sugar_and_Spice said:



			Or perhaps those yards are nice *because* they don't allow children.  Depends on your definition of "nice" I guess.  The adult-only yards I've been on have been the tidier, more peaceful, better organized yards.
		
Click to expand...

I have literally never found that to be true. Have encountered some utterly bizarrely behaved and horrendously messy and inconsiderate adults around horses - at least with children, they are still trainable! Once they hit adulthood, really there's no hope.

Moreover, the poster I was responding to has a well behaved and correctly parented child, as opposed to the stereotypical unsupervised demon in small human form that some of you appear to feel defines all children. So really, yes, I do think they've had a lucky escape. People who are intolerant of well behaved, correctly parented children, make me a tad wary. They often turn out to be a bit odd in general, and not the sort that I would trust around anyone or anything that matters to me. I shan't infer that they're all sociopaths, but I do think it.


----------



## Abi90 (24 November 2017)

KittenInTheT People who are intolerant of well behaved said:
			
		


			Why? Not everyone has to like kids. I can't understand why people are intolerant of well behaved polite dogs, but they are, doesn't make them sociopaths.

I've just been to see a friend who has a 7 month old daughter, she was cute in a way I suppose but I had no desire to hold her and yes her shrieks and squeals were a tad grating. That's what babies do and I would never complain about it as bad behaviour but it doesn't mean I have to enjoy it!
		
Click to expand...


----------



## G&T (24 November 2017)

I'm not really bothered by kids on yards (keep horses at home now anyway, but have been on big yards previously where there've been children) but what I find weird is how some parents drag their unhorsey kids to the yard with them to get cold and bored, often with no one their own age to play with. We had a lady like that on my last yard, she had a little boy who did all the annoying and dangerous stuff people have mentioned, including running the length of the American barn screeching and rattling a whip along the stable railings, climbing hay bales and falling, spooking horses etc. He was kind of annoying, but I mainly just felt sorry for him as it was just a weird atmosphere to make your kid hang around in, completely bored, for an hour twice a day. It's not their hobby, why bring them?!


----------



## Sugar_and_Spice (24 November 2017)

G&T they bring them because they've got nobody else to leave them with and they're not prepared to give up being a horse owner.  I've met loads who are single mums, plenty who are part of a couple but mum does all the childcare because dad isn't really interested/works millions of hours per week, couples where they work alternate shifts so one parent is always home (or up the yard) with the children so there's no childcare costs.  Not everyone has grandparents/partners who can/will look after their children while they go to the horse.


----------



## MouseInLux (24 November 2017)

Sugar_and_Spice said:



			G&T they bring them because they've got nobody else to leave them with and they're not prepared to give up being a horse owner.  I've met loads who are single mums, plenty who are part of a couple but mum does all the childcare because dad isn't really interested/works millions of hours per week, couples where they work alternate shifts so one parent is always home (or up the yard) with the children so there's no childcare costs.  Not everyone has grandparents/partners who can/will look after their children while they go to the horse.
		
Click to expand...

This! My son is not a Horse fan but he has to come to the barn otherwise I wouldn&#8217;t get to see my horse during the school holidays. BUT he&#8217;s well behaved and stays out of the cold by staying in our viewing room and plays up there.


----------



## PapaverFollis (24 November 2017)

As long as kids don't bother me too much then I don't mind but ball games and deliberately spooking horses is hard to tolerate. I don't even mind having short conversations with other people's kids but I'm one of those people that kids latch onto for some reason and I end up worn out from the conversation! So prefer a yard with minimal kids!


----------



## Crugeran Celt (24 November 2017)

My son was around my horses from 4 days old, in his car seat on top of the rug rack or in the hay barn behind the fence so the horses couldn't actually touch him than as a toddler he would potter around while they were in the stables and then in hay barn whilst I turned them out or brought in. I even used to sit him on my old mare in the field and lead the othet two horses in and let her follow with him riding bareback from about the age of 16 months! Can't believe now how much trust I put in that mare. He never knew a time when he wasn't  around the horses until he got to ahout 6 and decided he really was completely uninterested and wanted to play rugby not ride. If children are supervised properly then I think it is great to allow them around horses from as young as possible.  I now look after my two year old great nephew and he helps me muck out, mix feeds and I have jyst started him sitting on one of the ponies. I suppose it's different because I havemy own place and not loads of children around loads of ponies at tge same time.


----------



## GemG (24 November 2017)

Like I've said before, it's the parents, not the kids. 

Same with dogs, it's not the dog, it's the feckless owner.

Crugeral Clt, reminded me with above post - Gosh, how long it used to take to muck out whilst having a newborn baby with me... (on demand b feeding) then the worry about how I was going to handle broodie foaling (horse not human) with a newborn baby (human) in tow..      ..thankfully she dutifully obliged by foaling textbook style in field at the most civilised of times (about 11am) broad daylight...     ....being able to keep the horses ticking over on DIY livery/work/and have a family and be able to bring the sprogs with me to share my interests has been a stressful at times, but also a privilege and has certainly made me stronger as a person.    Kids aren't for everyone of course (I never actually thought I'd have any!) - even on a yard.  

But give us 'good' parents a break.  Mine wouldn't even think of being so rude/inconsiderate as they've been 'trained' from young (nice and quiet, keep out the way, here you can muck out with this/help me fill a net/come and pet this pony, volume down, well done). 

It's not rocket science.  Same as having a well mannered horse - common sense and firm but fair and consistent handling.      But I'm going well off piste, so I'll stop now!


----------



## ILuvCowparsely (24 November 2017)

SEL said:



			I might have missed it as we're up to 15 pages, but why do you need to leave your current yard?
		
Click to expand...

If you go to your settings.. click it .....top right of your user name 
 click general settings
scroll down  ............ Number of Posts to Show Per Page:  click show max 40 then you will find there are only 4 pages so it is easy to follow.


----------



## GemG (24 November 2017)

ihatework said:



			Pretend its dogs then. There actually isnt much difference if you think about it.
Dogs can be on yards and either be generally left to their own devices to bark, pee on stuff, thieve food, wander behind horses etc.
Dogs can be on yards under close supervision and well trained managed with the consideration of others.
Dogs can be banned from yards.

Im probably more dog friendly than I am child friendly.
I really appreciate being on a yard that is Dog tolerant, but I also fully accept yards that ban dogs - not everyone likes them and ultimately Im there to stable a horse, not exercise/socialise my dog.
		
Click to expand...

See what you mean, except a dog you can leave at home unattended, pop it in a kennel if you choose, or even leave it in your car allowing you to get your horsey jobs done...   ....much as I've been tempted to leave my children at home/in a kennel/or in a car....... think you get me.   Child care is not always easy for some. 

Personally when kids are with me it is usually as quick as I can get done what I need to get done (understand tight supervision).  I would never try to ride/school/fart about/do dangerous jobs with them in tow.


----------



## Smogul (25 November 2017)

ester said:



			So what do you do with your unbound and ungagged toddler when you are doing all the jobs with your horse?
		
Click to expand...

I would like to know the answer to that too! A small child ran up to my pony and despite vet saying very firmly "Don't touch. Pony is ill", the child "patted" my pony. Pony reared up and lashed out. Mother who had done nothing to stop the child went ballistic. However, the vet went more ballistic! She said later that she did not know what it would have done to her professional insurance if the kid had been injured.

Before anyone criticises me or pony, pony was being investigated for head shaking and was eventually put down as quality of life was so awful.


----------



## bluedanube (25 November 2017)

Sad tale. If parents value their children, why put them in danger?


----------



## Arzada (25 November 2017)

Smogul said:



			I would like to know the answer to that too! A small child ran up to my pony and despite vet saying very firmly "Don't touch. Pony is ill", the child "patted" my pony. Pony reared up and lashed out. Mother who had done nothing to stop the child went ballistic. However, the vet went more ballistic! She said later that she did not know what it would have done to her professional insurance if the kid had been injured.

Before anyone criticises me or pony, pony was being investigated for head shaking and was eventually put down as quality of life was so awful.
		
Click to expand...

This is just the perfect illustration of the point which I was making way back when which someone incorrectly understood to mean that children should only be on yards 18+. If people won't safeguard their children, dogs etc then it is up to others to keep them safe. This sorry tale also illustrates that some adults do not want others doing just this.


----------



## windand rain (25 November 2017)

So pleased I dont have to mix with some of the people with horses I really dont like people much at the best of times. I dont allow dogs on my yard, kids have to behave but I only have two liveries one is retired and never see his owner the other has kids but I dont tolerate bad behaviour and they know it. I dont see much of them either. Like everything else unfortuately the people I dislike are likely to have badly behaved kids too and health and safety is irrelevant to them


----------



## tallyho! (25 November 2017)

bluedanube said:



			Sad tale. If parents value their children, why put them in danger?
		
Click to expand...

I don't know when you started riding but I was pretty young - I can remember our dad being pretty strict with us but we were allowed to see to our own ponies and help with chores. I do even remember having a laugh (gasp!! there were many adult casualties) with other girls at camps when I was a bit older. 

It would be interesting to know how everyone here , who must have been a child at some point, learned if not at a riding school, yard or home? Unless everyone just started riding as a well behaved ready made silent adult?


----------



## poiuytrewq (25 November 2017)

tallyho! said:



			I don't know when you started riding but I was pretty young - I can remember our dad being pretty strict with us but we were allowed to see to our own ponies and help with chores. I do even remember having a laugh (gasp!! there were many adult casualties) with other girls at camps when I was a bit older. 

It would be interesting to know how everyone here , who must have been a child at some point, learned if not at a riding school, yard or home? Unless everyone just started riding as a well behaved ready made silent adult?
		
Click to expand...

Quite! 
My daughter came to the yard with me as a baby but stayed in the car or pram in the tack room. I worked it round sleeps! 
When she got bigger i loaned my horse out as it was unfair on both of them (i felt, i know people easily manage it but i had no help and a miserable baby and bored horse)
When she was 4/5 i liveried at a family owned farm where they had a child the same kind of age so it was never a problem. We moved to a yard when she was about 6/7 and tbh she was perfectly behaved and quiet around the horses. The problem from my pov was that the poor child was constantly running around after all the liveries who seemed to think she was fair game as child labour! 
We were all kids and all had to learn somewhere.


----------



## Tiddlypom (25 November 2017)

tallyho! said:



			It would be interesting to know how everyone here , who must have been a child at some point, learned if not at a riding school, yard or home? Unless everyone just started riding as a well behaved ready made silent adult?
		
Click to expand...

Learned as a closely supervised child at home, at a RS, at school and at Pony Club. 

I feel sorry for so many young kids today. They are just another commitment to be juggled, rather than being at the centre of their parents' world.


----------



## G&T (25 November 2017)

Sugar_and_Spice said:



			G&T they bring them because they've got nobody else to leave them with and they're not prepared to give up being a horse owner.  I've met loads who are single mums, plenty who are part of a couple but mum does all the childcare because dad isn't really interested/works millions of hours per week, couples where they work alternate shifts so one parent is always home (or up the yard) with the children so there's no childcare costs.  Not everyone has grandparents/partners who can/will look after their children while they go to the horse.
		
Click to expand...

Well yes I understand it's for the parents' own convenience, that doesn't make it fair on the kids though. I'm not talking about the odd time at the yard, or just on school holidays like the other lady mentioned, that's fair enough. It's parents who are on diy so have to do the horse twice a day, and their completely uninterested child has no choice but to go with them, every day - in my experience those are the kids who end up being a pain to everyone else in the yard because they are just bored to tears. If you choose to have a child shouldn't they take some priority over your existing hobbies? Horses take up a hell of a lot of time. 
By the way this isn't aimed at the OP who has said her son loves being at the yard and pottering around with her. That's great! But I have seen plenty of parents who are frankly selfish expecting their kids to just fit around them and their expensive time consuming hobby.
On the original question, I think kids are great, particularly kids that are into ponies, and wouldn't mind them on my yard at all. The biggest nightmares in livery yards I've been on in the past have all been adults over 30 that behave like kids!


----------



## Crugeran Celt (25 November 2017)

Owning horses is a way of life so having children as well means making a choice, do you just get them to muck in and out! Or do you change your life style to accommodate the children? In my case my horses are at home which does make life a lot easier as by the time my child decided that horses were not his thing I was happy to leave him in the house while I mucked out, fed ect in the stables right next door. While he was small he came out with me and helped or hindered depending on which way you looked at it. If they had been at livery it would have been a lot more difficult but one thing is for sure he would not have been allowed to run around, touch other peoples horses without the owners permission or make too much noise around the place.  It boils down to how well behaved the children are and if they have been taught how to behave around  horses, I would not have children around my horses that didn't do exactly as I asked the moment I asked it, simple really, if you can't behave keep away from my horses.  My son is now 19 and has absolutely no interest in horses at all but I know I can go away on holiday and he is more than capable of mucking out, feeding and being there for the farrier.  He was taught from very young how to behave around them and it has stuck with him .


----------



## teddypops (25 November 2017)

tallyho! said:



			I don't know when you started riding but I was pretty young - I can remember our dad being pretty strict with us but we were allowed to see to our own ponies and help with chores. I do even remember having a laugh (gasp!! there were many adult casualties) with other girls at camps when I was a bit older. 

It would be interesting to know how everyone here , who must have been a child at some point, learned if not at a riding school, yard or home? Unless everyone just started riding as a well behaved ready made silent adult?
		
Click to expand...

At a riding school with strict instruction from the yard owner. We didnt  misbehave because we were desperate to be there and learn as much as we could! It is not compulsory for children to be wild and badly behaved!!


----------



## tallyho! (25 November 2017)

Tiddlypom said:



			Learned as a closely supervised child at home, at a RS, at school and at Pony Club. 

I feel sorry for so many young kids today. They are just another commitment to be juggled, rather than being at the centre of their parents' world.
		
Click to expand...

Well that's a rather broad brush to be waving about tiddlypom!!


----------



## Nasicus (25 November 2017)

It would be interesting to know how everyone here , who must have been a child at some point, learned if not at a riding school, yard or home? Unless everyone just started riding as a well behaved ready made silent adult?
		
Click to expand...

Riding school that ran a Saturday pony club and was geared towards and catered to kids.


----------



## SwishMyTail (25 November 2017)

i really dont think kids are supervised and taught how to behave as they used to be

that said, when I was 8 years old I used to go and walk to a local R/S to hang about. I remember watching a livery owner tacking up her horse and standing there metaphorically drooling. I also remember her clearly telling me to step back as her horse didn&#8217;t like having it&#8217;s girth done up. I didn&#8217;t listen and said horse lashed out with it&#8217;s teeth as the girth went up and caught my earlobe!! It tore the bottom of the earlobe clean away from the side of my head!! The owner panicked and said I told you to move away!! Rightly so, and I was terrified of being in trouble when I got home.


----------



## LadyGascoyne (25 November 2017)

tallyho! said:



			It would be interesting to know how everyone here , who must have been a child at some point, learned if not at a riding school, yard or home? Unless everyone just started riding as a well behaved ready made silent adult?
		
Click to expand...

At a specifically child-friendly yard. The YO actually had two separate yards about a mile apart, one for 16+ and one for below 16s. You could elect to stay on the below 16 yard on the understanding that it would always be child-friendly. 

But I don't think that these responses are really about horsey children, more about parents that bring their children along with them while they do their horses, regardless of the child's level of interest.

If this thread was about someone who had an absolutely horse-mad little one and wanted to take them to a yard occasionally in order to encourage that interest, I think most people would feel differently.


----------



## SEL (25 November 2017)

teddypops said:



			At a riding school with strict instruction from the yard owner. We didnt  misbehave because we were desperate to be there and learn as much as we could! It is not compulsory for children to be wild and badly behaved!!
		
Click to expand...

Ditto. I was a Shetland sized tot and don't remember being overly supervised when I groomed the pony (she was nearly 30 and had taught 100s kids). BUT I behaved because if I hadn't then that would have been the end of ponies. I used to ride that Shetland out with adults on hacks, very much aware that I had to be no bother or that would be the end of hacking.

I seriously don't have an issue providing kids are well behaved and I think most people on this thread are the same.


----------



## tallyho! (25 November 2017)

Nasicus said:



			Riding school that ran a Saturday pony club and was geared towards and catered to kids.
		
Click to expand...

Glad to hear. Judging by this thread, quite a few posters were never children. Ever.


----------



## GemG (25 November 2017)

tallyho! said:



			Glad to hear. Judging by this thread, quite a few posters were never children. Ever.
		
Click to expand...

Haha!


----------



## Jack110 (25 November 2017)

One other aspect to this, is that some woman can't have children and find it very difficult to deal with, a friend of mine had many miscarriages and had given up. The yard she is on is al adults. It would be very hard forher if somone starting bringing babies and toddlers up to the yard.  She as thrown herself into horses it's her refuge.  Hard enough for her when people ask 'when are you going to have one" childless women need support and considered too


----------



## tallyho! (25 November 2017)

duplicate


----------



## ester (25 November 2017)

I was a riding school kid who inhaled a lot of horse and pony magazine, the pony club manual, a lot of pullein-thomas books, and my Mum's old BHS exam books . which made me superb at the RS quizzes  and yearned for the 'own a pony days' that if I was lucky I could do once every summer and easter and was taught how to groom properly etc then. When old enough I started working at the riding school I was then at for rides and did the teaching of how to groom properly etc on the own a pony days instead.

Mum and her three sisters had ridden as kids and mum had worked at a riding school and in racing in her younger days but was sent to secretarial college and essentially fully gave it up to have kids. I do remember her being very cross about me being nearly bitten by a feral forester and wondering if I had learned anything about ponies!


----------



## PapaverFollis (25 November 2017)

I don't see how disliking out of control children spooking horses and creating dangerous situations for themselves and others equates to "being so intolerant that its hypocritical cos we were all children once".  Im more tolerant of children now then when I was one myself to be fair. :lol: what does that make me?  I dont think having been a child once upon a time means that a person then has to put up with all behaviour from all children ever with no complaint :lol:


----------



## luckyoldme (25 November 2017)

why is it so hard for some people to accept that some of us just dont like being around kids.
Im just not intrested in them. Ive no idea why im like this but its the way i am and i can t change it.


----------



## yhanni (26 November 2017)

Did anyone see the episode of '24 hours in A & E' where a toddler had been kicked in the head by a horse? By their own horse as I recall. The child survived but it was touch and go. I don't like children particularly but would be devastated if one was injured by my horse. There is a fair chance, in this ridiculously litigious world, that the horse owner would somehow be held accountable as well.


----------



## OldNag (26 November 2017)

I think we were very lucky when we were on a livery yard.
We were there with my kids' ponies and my horse. There were a few other kids.  The parents did try to make sure kids behaved and kept out of the way of those who were not wanting to be around children. Certainly no toy tractors or zooming around on bikes!

I have to say, the liveries there were fantastic. There were some (kids got to know which ones) who would never mind being asked a question, and were really encouraging. My girls learned a lot from being there and watching other people. 

There were plenty of clinics too and children and adults would both take part. I think we were lucky though - it was such a great setup.  I suspect that if there had been any tearaway kids  they would not have been welcomed. It worked because people (most of the time) respected each other's space.


----------



## Pearlsasinger (26 November 2017)

As a teacher, I wish that parents would take responsibility for the children's safety and behaviour, wherever they are.  I am not on a livery yard but am absolutely fed up of seeing small children zooming around unsupervised in cafes where customers and staff are carrying hot food/drinks and in busy supermarkets and shops, getting in every-one's way.  Why do people allow their children to use scooters or trainers with wheels to go shopping?  And as for allowing them to play in carparks..............  Surely if I can see the danger those children are in, their parents can too.  Do they just not care - or is it that some parents have the attitude that everyone else should take responsibility for their children?


----------



## PapaverFollis (26 November 2017)

Pearlsasinger said:



			.  Do they just not care - or is it that some parents have the attitude that everyone else should take responsibility for their children?
		
Click to expand...

Haha, and then when you do take responsibility for their children and tell the little darlings that their actions are dangerous? The parents go mad at you for "telling off" their child.

I honestly think that a lot of people are incapable of seeing risk at all. And then get defensive and embarrassed when it is pointed out to them.


----------



## SO1 (26 November 2017)

In my opinion the safety of the child should come before the needs of the adult. I do have sympathy for parents who don't have the childcare they need so have no choice but to bring young children to the livery yards whilst they are doing jobs. Toddlers I think are particularly vulnerable as they are curious and active. There may be horses on the yard that are not safe for young children to be around.

Riding school & pony club will have people trained in safeguardIng children & first aid & hopefully the ponies & horses will suitable for children as well. If you keep your horses at home then you know all your horses and can make adjustments to keep your  child safe & don't have to worry about other  liveries not being able to control their horses.

My pony is excellent with children but unfortunately a child kicked a football at his head so now he is scared of football's so someone playing with a football on a yard might cause him to react in an unsafe way. I think on livery  yards the problem is you cant guarantee another livery's horse will be safe around children. Unfortunately if a child does have an accident on the yard the parent may blame other liveries rather admitting that they were taking a risk bringing the child on the yard on the yard in the first place.


----------



## YorksG (26 November 2017)

Having horses is a lifestyle choice, so to some extent, is having children. What an awful lot of people need to understand is that you actually cannot have it all. Livery yards are not places where it is reasonable to have unsupervised, or partially supervised children. The main point of a livery yard is to keep horses, that is why they exist. If you cannot get childcare for when you are dealing with your horse, then you may have to rethink your lifestyle choices imo


----------



## Abi90 (26 November 2017)

YorksG said:



			Having horses is a lifestyle choice, so to some extent, is having children. What an awful lot of people need to understand is that you actually cannot have it all. Livery yards are not places where it is reasonable to have unsupervised, or partially supervised children. The main point of a livery yard is to keep horses, that is why they exist. If you cannot get childcare for when you are dealing with your horse, then you may have to rethink your lifestyle choices imo
		
Click to expand...

This 100% both are choices


----------



## Farma (26 November 2017)

YorksG said:



			Having horses is a lifestyle choice, so to some extent, is having children. What an awful lot of people need to understand is that you actually cannot have it all. Livery yards are not places where it is reasonable to have unsupervised, or partially supervised children. The main point of a livery yard is to keep horses, that is why they exist. If you cannot get childcare for when you are dealing with your horse, then you may have to rethink your lifestyle choices imo
		
Click to expand...

So having had a child, and perhaps not having the childcare help you may have thought you would do you suggest selling your horse rather than taking your child on occasion?


----------



## Farma (26 November 2017)

Tiddlypom said:



			Learned as a closely supervised child at home, at a RS, at school and at Pony Club. 

I feel sorry for so many young kids today. They are just another commitment to be juggled, rather than being at the centre of their parents' world.
		
Click to expand...

Yes my poor child  he is the centre of my world 90% of the time and the other 10% he has to come with my while I shop, watch (and help/hinder) while I do housework, work, walk the dogs, occasionally come to the yard (which he loves), run errands for our business etc - the world cannot revolve around him all the time and if it did I wonder what sort of child I would be raising? He has numerous activities we go to that are entirely for his entertainment but he is a very content child and doesn't need constant 'entertaining' to be happy, he is often very happy just chilling with a little book for an hour!
When I was young me and my brothers and sisters had to go to all sorts of places with my parents, my dad was a lorry driver and sometimes I had to go away for weeks at a time with him in the lorry because there was no other choice. I was happy as larry to tag along and be with them and that's just what kids have to do some of the time!
I also see a lot of mums that have children and give up their former selves completely, they don't have their jobs, their social lives etc etc and spiral into loneliness and depression, that is much more common that I realised and have only realised that since I became a mum, so would I ask a mum that had a baby to 'reconsider' having horses as well as everything else a mum has to sacrifice for her child, no bloody way.


----------



## sjp1 (26 November 2017)

Well we have two yard owners children on your yard, lots of dogs that race past horses legs barking as if they are going to kill something and the relief lady who does the yard when YO is away has a 3 year old who has no fear of horses.  YO's children will often run screaming down the yard behind our horses, dogs often do the same barking at nothing but at full speed, 3 year old brings tiny plastic buckets of water up to horses noses because he just loves them and has no fear and to be absolutely honest ................ I think it is a fabulous despooker for horses - when mine first moved to the yard he was on high alert - I noticed a couple of days ago that five mastiff dogs ran full spelt past his back legs whilst he was tied up barking as though the devil was about to enter the gate - and he didn't move a muscle.  Personally .............. I think in this day an age horses have got to get used to everything, and I personally am pleased that at my yard, children screeching past him cause him no reaction and nor do dogs or bicycles, or the other myriad of stuff that comes with kids.  Horses are very kind with small children and for me, I don't have an issue with it at all - in fact, I am almost grateful that he has got so much calmer with so much 'stuff' going on around him.


----------



## YorksG (26 November 2017)

Farma said:



			So having had a child, and perhaps not having the childcare help you may have thought you would do you suggest selling your horse rather than taking your child on occasion?
		
Click to expand...

If you cannot organise for your child to be looked after in a safe environment then that may indeed have to happen. If your hobby was driving formula one cars, would you leave the child in the garage/pit area while you continued with your hobby, if you couldn't get childcare? Horse owning is not a right.


----------



## Pearlsasinger (26 November 2017)

Farma said:



			Yes my poor child  he is the centre of my world 90% of the time and the other 10% he has to come with my while I shop, watch (and help/hinder) while I do housework, work, walk the dogs, occasionally come to the yard (which he loves), run errands for our business etc - the world cannot revolve around him all the time and if it did I wonder what sort of child I would be raising? He has numerous activities we go to that are entirely for his entertainment but he is a very content child and doesn't need constant 'entertaining' to be happy, he is often very happy just chilling with a little book for an hour!
When I was young me and my brothers and sisters had to go to all sorts of places with my parents, my dad was a lorry driver and sometimes I had to go away for weeks at a time with him in the lorry because there was no other choice. I was happy as larry to tag along and be with them and that's just what kids have to do some of the time!
I also see a lot of mums that have children and give up their former selves completely, they don't have their jobs, their social lives etc etc and spiral into loneliness and depression, that is much more common that I realised and have only realised that since I became a mum, so would I ask a mum that had a baby to 'reconsider' having horses as well as everything else a mum has to sacrifice for her child, no bloody way.
		
Click to expand...

But perhaps, rather than putting the child at risk, Mum should pay for assistance on the livery yard at the times when no childcare is available.  Certainly what no parent should do, is expect others on the yard to take responsibility for their child, when the parent has taken the horse back to the field, several hundred yards down the road, or gone out for a hack, or is in the arena concentrating on schooling, unless there is a proper arrangement for someone to do so.  The children are the parents' responsibility.


----------



## Farma (26 November 2017)

YorksG said:



			If you cannot organise for your child to be looked after in a safe environment then that may indeed have to happen. If your hobby was driving formula one cars, would you leave the child in the garage/pit area while you continued with your hobby, if you couldn't get childcare? Horse owning is not a right.
		
Click to expand...

One of my horses is unsound and unsaleable - perhaps I should shoot that one?


----------



## YorksG (26 November 2017)

Farma said:



			One of my horses is unsound and unsaleable - perhaps I should shoot that one?
		
Click to expand...

Or pay for childcare or a groom?


----------



## Farma (26 November 2017)

Pearlsasinger said:



			But perhaps, rather than putting the child at risk, Mum should pay for assistance on the livery yard at the times when no childcare is available.  Certainly what no parent should do, is expect others on the yard to take responsibility for their child, when the parent has taken the horse back to the field, several hundred yards down the road, or gone out for a hack, or is in the arena concentrating on schooling, unless there is a proper arrangement for someone to do so.  The children are the parents' responsibility.
		
Click to expand...

Who ever said someone should take responsibility for someone elses child? I take mine on occasion and he is entirely in my care, I pay a fortune for services but I couldn't pay entirely for full livery and I don't want to. I have never ridden with my child there although I have heard of parents that do it isn't something I feel comfortable doing. I have to do minimal jobs at times and go again, he loves and I love to see him enjoying it.


----------



## Pearlsasinger (26 November 2017)

Farma said:



			Who ever said someone should take responsibility for someone elses child? I take mine on occasion and he is entirely in my care, I pay a fortune for services but I couldn't pay entirely for full livery and I don't want to. I have never ridden with my child there although I have heard of parents that do it isn't something I feel comfortable doing. I have to do minimal jobs at times and go again, he loves and I love to see him enjoying it.
		
Click to expand...

There are several instances of parents expecting other liveries to take responsibility for their children, that I know of.  If your child is always under your close supervision, then I doubt that there is any problem on your yard but that does make me wonder why you started the thread.


----------



## Sugar_and_Spice (26 November 2017)

G&T said:



			Well yes I understand it's for the parents' own convenience, that doesn't make it fair on the kids though. I'm not talking about the odd time at the yard, or just on school holidays like the other lady mentioned, that's fair enough. It's parents who are on diy so have to do the horse twice a day, and their completely uninterested child has no choice but to go with them, every day - in my experience those are the kids who end up being a pain to everyone else in the yard because they are just bored to tears. If you choose to have a child shouldn't they take some priority over your existing hobbies? Horses take up a hell of a lot of time. 
By the way this isn't aimed at the OP who has said her son loves being at the yard and pottering around with her. That's great! But I have seen plenty of parents who are frankly selfish expecting their kids to just fit around them and their expensive time consuming hobby.
On the original question, I think kids are great, particularly kids that are into ponies, and wouldn't mind them on my yard at all. The biggest nightmares in livery yards I've been on in the past have all been adults over 30 that behave like kids!
		
Click to expand...

I never said it was right or fair or that I agreed with it. I was just answering your question of why people do it.  

If I had a disinterested child and wasn't willing to give up my horse, and I couldn't leave the child with anyone else while I went to the stables, I'd have the horses situation set up such that I could be done in the bare minimum of time and I'd not let the child run riot while I was doing everything.  If I was going to ride, clip, fill up a weeks worth of haynets, dig out deep litter bed or something the child would have to be left at home with someone else, or if that wasn't an option at all there would have to be part livery/a sharer to exercise the horse and help with chores/a freelance groom to clip it etc.  Or if I usually had childcare while I went to the stables, but that had gone wrong that day for some reason, I'd pay the stables to do the horse.  

I've seen it done successfully with parents taking their young children to the stables daily to see to a horse on DIY livery, but those children were well behaved enough that they didn't cause anybody else a problem or were a danger to themselves and the parents found a system that worked for them/their horse and had it down to a fine art.


----------



## Farma (26 November 2017)

Pearlsasinger said:



			There are several instances of parents expecting other liveries to take responsibility for their children, that I know of.  If your child is always under your close supervision, then I doubt that there is any problem on your yard but that does make me wonder why you started the thread.
		
Click to expand...

No need to wonder or seemingly assume anything, as I said I have moved and upon looking for a yard the area I am now in has an unbelievable amount of yards that don't accept children it was shock as I didn't come across this in the area I was previously or in the last 30 years of owning horses. The feeling I had having being told I couldn't move onto a yard if my child ever had to come with me wasn't something I expected to come across, that is why I started this thread.


----------



## Farma (26 November 2017)

YorksG said:



			Or pay for childcare or a groom?
		
Click to expand...

Or find a yard with nice group of child friendly and accepting liveries. Which I happily have.


----------



## Farma (26 November 2017)

bluedanube said:



			Sad tale. If parents value their children, why put them in danger?
		
Click to expand...

I haven't seen anyone put their children in danger, but I guess horses are dangerous and unpredictable animals, so are dogs but people don't get rid of their dogs as soon as they have kids.


----------



## teddypops (26 November 2017)

Farma said:



			I haven't seen anyone put their children in danger, but I guess horses are dangerous and unpredictable animals, so are dogs but people don't get rid of their dogs as soon as they have kids.[/QUOTE

Some people DO get rid of their dogs when they have kids. I have a little jack Russell who is the best dog in the world who was free to whoever came first to pick him up just because the woman had a baby.
		
Click to expand...


----------



## ester (26 November 2017)

So what do you do with the toddler while caring for your horse? There were a couple of us that were interested. 

I really don't see the issue with having adults only yards, and being told so on enquiry, I think this thread shows that there is plenty of demand for such a set up so it seems a fine business model. It isn't an 'unbelievable amount of yards' if they get sufficient clientel in the area.


----------



## Abi90 (26 November 2017)

teddypops said:





Farma said:



			I haven't seen anyone put their children in danger, but I guess horses are dangerous and unpredictable animals, so are dogs but people don't get rid of their dogs as soon as they have kids.[/QUOTE

Some people DO get rid of their dogs when they have kids. I have a little jack Russell who is the best dog in the world who was free to whoever came first to pick him up just because the woman had a baby.
		
Click to expand...

And cats. I know of several people who got rid of their cat when they had a baby as they were afraid the cat would accidentally smother the child.
		
Click to expand...


----------



## Farma (26 November 2017)

ester said:



			So what do you do with the toddler while caring for your horse? There were a couple of us that were interested. 

I really don't see the issue with having adults only yards, and being told so on enquiry, I think this thread shows that there is plenty of demand for such a set up so it seems a fine business model. It isn't an 'unbelievable amount of yards' if they get sufficient clientel in the area.
		
Click to expand...

I did answer that many pages back, of course its up to the yard it was just a shock to me when I moved as I said I never came across it and have always been on yards where people bought their kids and never gave it a second thought, when I moved and came across so many having had a baby it was very deflating, not a nice feeling at all when I know I am a responsible mum and horse owner, I have somewhere now but if I lived where I used to I would never have noticed this, having read this thread it does appear that a lot of horsey folk don't want children on yards for numerous reasons.


----------



## ester (26 November 2017)

Oh, I did check and have been watching for the reply and have checked again and cannot see it since I asked the other day or before other than you saying he is in your care, could you tell me the post number please as I obviously missed it.

I guess as I don't have one I cannot quite fathom bringing a horse in from the field with toddler in tow etc.


----------



## SwishMyTail (26 November 2017)

seen some people have little one in carriers when they bring horses in but i do think thats dangerous

far better to park your car in sight of the field and leave them safely strapped in the carseat for the few minutes it takes to bring in


----------



## Farma (26 November 2017)

My friend who has now moved away evented to a high level while towing around 2 small kids, juggling breast feeding etc, she had a blog around it and I found it quite inspiring even though I didn't have kids at the time, so did many other people hence the successful blog and she wrote the most fascinating posts on the training section of h&h, I felt nothing but admiration for her, I don't think I ever saw a negative post around how she managed her 2 kids or that she shouldn't have them around horses, around the yard or that other event riders minded her having them around, she was at a huge well known competition yard too. Again that goes to add that I just hadn't seen the other side to it until I had my own child. I wanted to add that as if any other mums are reading some of these posts I would hate them to see so much negativity and hopefully they wont feel the need to totally avoid mixing the 2, they just need to find the right environment


----------



## ILuvCowparsely (26 November 2017)

Abi90 said:





teddypops said:



			And cats. I know of several people who got rid of their cat when they had a baby as they were afraid the cat would accidentally smother the child.
		
Click to expand...

Yes that does happen more often than you think and also they get rid of the cat because they get a new puppy and the cat is scared of puppy so cat goes.
		
Click to expand...


----------



## SO1 (26 November 2017)

I do have a lot of sympathy for those who find that they do not have the support and childcare options that they thought they would when they decided to have children and cannot afford to pay for childcare. Quite a few of my non horsey friends have ended up as single mothers and life is not easy so adding a horse to the mix could be really tricky to balance not just time wise but financially.

There is a market for childfree yards so maybe there could be a market for yards which are really child friendly. Perhaps with a designated area for children to play safely and an after school/holiday club that parents could use. Parents who perhaps were unable to afford childcare could perhaps support each other so one person keeps an eye on the kids so that another can catch in or do some jobs and the other person return the favour.


----------



## Dubsie (27 November 2017)

OrangeAndLemon said:



			Is it 'children' that are the problem or unsupervised children?
		
Click to expand...

It's the unsupervised that are the issue.  Whether that's the bored toddler (who wanders off) or the 'helpful' 5 year old, it's not quite so bad if in the pushchair 'can you just keep an eye on little darling while I go and poo pick the field/ride/am gone for an hour' or the older pre-teen or young immature teen 'your (3 or 4 years older) child can go for a hack with mine today' erm REALLY?  When their child cannot understand simple instructions like 'do not get too far ahead', or 'wait at the end of the bridleway' or 'go LEFT because that field will be far too muddy' largely because they have no control over their pony, it's very unfair to expect mine to supervise when you cannot be bothered to hack with them yourself (because you also know how difficult it is to supervise your child).

I have no problem with properly supervised children: mine was that child once.


----------



## criso (27 November 2017)

yhanni said:



			Did anyone see the episode of '24 hours in A & E' where a toddler had been kicked in the head by a horse? By their own horse as I recall. The child survived but it was touch and go. I don't like children particularly but would be devastated if one was injured by my horse. There is a fair chance, in this ridiculously litigious world, that the horse owner would somehow be held accountable as well.
		
Click to expand...

Yes I saw that and thought the same thing.  And not just litiguous, it would be a natural response to look for someone else to blame and if it was someone else's horse, then that's where the finger would point.  

I mentioned before a few cases on child friendly yards where small children had run under horses, grabbed their legs or tried to come in the school when a horse is being lunged.  
Another couple to add:-  child getting hold of the knife used to opens bales and jumping around the bales and running round the yard carrying it.  Knife was in theory out of reach but child climbed on a bale to reach it.
Going in to the feed room and opening a bottle of ACP to play with - child proof lid clearly not child proof enough.  Poured it in to a feed bin which had to be  thrown away as we couldn't guarantee we'd separated out all the tablets.

Even it the child is in a pushchair or pram although contained isn't safe if parked on the yard, horses can get spooked and break free, a couple of weeks ago a horse at our yard jumped a gate into the yard and careered around a bit, usually in these cases the only casualty is a wheelbarrow but could easily be a pushchair.

Yards can be dangerous places, people who have children make an effort to child proof their home but this process hasn't happened to yards.


----------



## ester (27 November 2017)

I guess that's a no then.


----------



## Smogul (27 November 2017)

Arzada said:



			If people won't safeguard their children, dogs etc then it is up to others to keep them safe.
		
Click to expand...

You have got to be joking. Are you seriously suggesting that a vet, whose primary duty of care is to her equine patient and human client, should be constantly looking over her shoulder to make sure some random unsupervised child isn't putting itself in danger?


----------



## Smogul (27 November 2017)

Pearlsasinger said:



			But perhaps, rather than putting the child at risk, Mum should pay for assistance on the livery yard at the times when no childcare is available.  Certainly what no parent should do, is expect others on the yard to take responsibility for their child, when the parent has taken the horse back to the field, several hundred yards down the road, or gone out for a hack, or is in the arena concentrating on schooling, unless there is a proper arrangement for someone to do so.  The children are the parents' responsibility.
		
Click to expand...

Friend worked in a yard where livery would regularly leave child while she went a hack, expecting the staff to supervise. This stopped when YO presented her with a bill for childminding. Seemed perfectly fair to me.


----------



## Casey76 (27 November 2017)

Farma said:



			Who ever said someone should take responsibility for someone elses child? I take mine on occasion and he is entirely in my care, I pay a fortune for services but I couldn't pay entirely for full livery and I don't want to. I have never ridden with my child there although I have heard of parents that do it isn't something I feel comfortable doing. I have to do minimal jobs at times and go again, he loves and I love to see him enjoying it.
		
Click to expand...

Get over yourself.  

Face it... some people will tolerate/encourage kids on a livery yard. Some wont.  Just because you feel put out because not everyone has the same opinion as you, it doesn't mean to say you are right.


----------



## Smogul (27 November 2017)

sjp1 said:



			Well we have two yard owners children on your yard, lots of dogs that race past horses legs barking as if they are going to kill something and the relief lady who does the yard when YO is away has a 3 year old who has no fear of horses.  YO's children will often run screaming down the yard behind our horses, dogs often do the same barking at nothing but at full speed, 3 year old brings tiny plastic buckets of water up to horses noses because he just loves them and has no fear and to be absolutely honest ................ I think it is a fabulous despooker for horses - when mine first moved to the yard he was on high alert - I noticed a couple of days ago that five mastiff dogs ran full spelt past his back legs whilst he was tied up barking as though the devil was about to enter the gate - and he didn't move a muscle.  Personally .............. I think in this day an age horses have got to get used to everything, and I personally am pleased that at my yard, children screeching past him cause him no reaction and nor do dogs or bicycles, or the other myriad of stuff that comes with kids.  Horses are very kind with small children and for me, I don't have an issue with it at all - in fact, I am almost grateful that he has got so much calmer with so much 'stuff' going on around him.
		
Click to expand...

I agree it is good for horses to get used to all sorts of things but they are still horses and unpredictable. OH had a horse who loved people, tolerated absolutely anything and was incredibly careful where he put his feet. However, he exploded one day bucking and kicking out while tied up outside. He had been bitten by a horse fly. Horses are dangerous enough for knowledgeable adults. Why bring children in and expect other people to look after them?


----------



## Farma (27 November 2017)

Casey76 said:



			Get over yourself.  

Face it... some people will tolerate/encourage kids on a livery yard. Some wont.  Just because you feel put out because not everyone has the same opinion as you, it doesn't mean to say you are right.
		
Click to expand...

Why be so damn rude, I haven't been horrible or told anyone to 'get over themselves' because they don't share the same opinion as me, I said I was shocked as over the years I hadn't ever come across it having been on many yards and worked on many yards, never minded anyone's kids and never thought they shouldn't bring them along, it does make you feel excluded and unwelcome within the horsey community and I wasn't prepared for it when i had my own, now i have a set up where i can take him now and again and he is welcome. I don't need to get over myself, I do need to get over the sanctimonious attitude of some people though. Snotty comments like yours are the reason some horse people get a bad name for being bitchy as that's exactly how you have come across.


----------



## lrw0250 (27 November 2017)

We keep my daughters lead rein pony on a DIY livery yard 5 minutes from home - no horse for me so don't have the problem of what to do for childcare while I am riding at least! If she is riding then obviously she is there with me but I try to leave her at home with her Dad if she isn't riding or if I am going to be doing more than a muck out/bring in/feed in the field, especially when the weather is bad as I know the yard is likely to be busier with people bringing in. I am the only one on the yard with a young child who comes on a regular basis but there are others who occasionally bring grandchildren. The totally non horsey yard owner/farmer also has 2 "free range" kids who are similar in age to my own and who are the ones more likely like cause disruption with bikes/hula hoops/banging gates and doors, but if they are there at the same time as us I will always ask if they want to help my daughter with grooming or chores and try to educate them a bit more about being around horses. All the other liveries are great with my daughter being around and happy to let her assist with mixing feeds, washing buckets, sweeping up etc. even if it means I get left doing our chores on my own as she would rather be helping them than me! If she was running around, playing, screaming and generally not paying attention to anything horsey I can imagine it would be a different kettle of fish.


----------



## nikkianddave (27 November 2017)

We have children on our yard from less than 2 upto 15 year olds, and to be honest the older ones can be the worst!

We are quite lucky that our ladies who bring their children to the yard watch them closely and do not let them run riot.

I have a 6 year old son and very rarely does anyone even realise that he is there, as he sits outside of my stable on his tablet quietly whilst I am there, or he is in the stable helping me muck out. He goes into the barn and helps me and other liveries fill their nets and doesn't kick up a fuss or get in anyones way, which is the same for most of the younger ones.

We have three teenagers, one of whom is a nightmare, doesn't tip the barrow where she should then lies about it, takes the tack room keys home or doesn't lock the tack room up at all, leaves the barn messy, doesn't put away jumps, doesn't sweep up after herself, just a general nightmare but the other two are very mature for their ages and well behaved. 

It totally depends on the parents to me, we don't have dogs on the yard as the YO dogs aren't great with other dogs.

I applied for a yard a little closer to home where they do not accept children, even though I assured them my son would be happy in the car on his tablet or doing his homework on the days where my husband isn't at home to have him they still wouldn't let me move to the yard which I think is ridiculous!


----------



## Merlod (27 November 2017)

Maybe you should have posted this on mumsnet so you could have had the agreement that's it's your god given right to bring your spawn everywhere, even places that specifically state they are not allowed. 

I would never moan at children being on a child-friendly yard, but in return I wouldn't expect parents to moan about children not being allowed on a child-free yard. It's not a difficult concept.


----------



## ILuvCowparsely (27 November 2017)

Merlod said:



			Maybe you should have posted this on mumsnet so you could have had the agreement that's it's your god given right to bring your spawn everywhere, even places that specifically state they are not allowed. 

I would never moan at children being on a child-friendly yard, but in return I wouldn't expect parents to moan about children not being allowed on a child-free yard. It's not a difficult concept.
		
Click to expand...

Like^


----------



## pippixox (27 November 2017)

I have a good 'off-road' buggy and three well behaved horses- every morning and evening my toddler sits in his buggy to turn out and bring in (10 minute walk to the field). I park him safely by the gate while I put on head collars. 
yes there is a risk, but it is a calculated one, and I could not leave him in the car when I walk 10 minutes to the field and then back again. 

I rent a field and barn- there are a few other people who can occasionally help, but not all the time. We have a routine and it just about works. He then has toys and snacks in the barn with me while I muck out. 

I also do 2 horses down the road who are a bit more lively to lead to and from the field, and their field is less than a 5 minute walk, so for safety my toddler has to wait in the car then

I would never ever (even when much older) leave my child on a yard while I hacked out!!!


----------



## minesadouble (27 November 2017)

Wow, I think it's a good job that some of the non-breeders on here haven't bred as the lack of good manners of some is astounding!


----------



## Rowreach (27 November 2017)

Smogul said:



			You have got to be joking. Are you seriously suggesting that a vet, whose primary duty of care is to her equine patient and human client, should be constantly looking over her shoulder to make sure some random unsupervised child isn't putting itself in danger?
		
Click to expand...

I had to go back to work when my first baby was 2 weeks old (the perils of being a self employed YO).  I remember one day I'd booked the vet to sedate a horse for clipping.  I'd picked a time in between scheduled baby feeds, but the vet was delayed due to an emergency, and got to me just in time for feeding.  He jabbed the horse, I clipped it, and he sat in the office with the baby and a bottle  He did draw the line at nappy changing though ...


----------



## Merlod (27 November 2017)

minesadouble said:



			Wow, I think it's a good job that some of the non-breeders on here haven't bred as the lack of good manners of some is astounding!
		
Click to expand...

Or perhaps we are sick of the arrogant, self-entitled opinions of those with children - that we should all be expected to bend over backwards and change rules to accomodate them. I'm sorry but if a yard is "no children" then they need to accept that, not start a thread about and how hard done by they are and how mean "child-free" people are.

And if you want to talk about lack of manners, try giving a tour of a yard advertised as "no children" to a potential new livery (all in all about an hour of my time on my day off) to then be told she loves it, but she would need to bring her children. Rules are rules and I was gobsmacked that she would fail to disclose this at the initial communication and try to get her foot in the door first by waiting til after the viewing.


----------



## Farma (27 November 2017)

minesadouble said:



			Wow, I think it's a good job that some of the non-breeders on here haven't bred as the lack of good manners of some is astounding!
		
Click to expand...

^like!


----------



## teddypops (27 November 2017)

minesadouble said:



			Wow, I think it's a good job that some of the non-breeders on here haven't bred as the lack of good manners of some is astounding!
		
Click to expand...

And its a pity some of the breeders have bred as they seem to be full of self importance and think its compulsory for other people to put up with their badly behaved children!


----------



## ester (27 November 2017)

While 'non-breeders' is a term that just exudes charm :rolleyes3:


----------



## Farma (27 November 2017)

Merlod said:



			Or perhaps we are sick of the arrogant, self-entitled opinions of those with children - that we should all be expected to bend over backwards and change rules to accomodate them. I'm sorry but if a yard is "no children" then they need to accept that, not start a thread about and how hard done by they are and how mean "child-free" people are.
		
Click to expand...

Wow just wow, so I am arrogant and self entitled because I hadn't come across any child free yards before moving and struggled to find somewhere in a new area, struggled with the idea that a lot of horse people didn't want children on yards at all? I asked for opinions because it shocked me, I cant lie it did because I hadn't seen it before, maybe it is more apparent to me because i work with horses so i am on so many yards with so many kids, I didn't say I was hard done by and I never called anyone mean, nor did i say they should change their rules, you have spewed this inflated version of vitriol all by yourself. That says a lot more about you than anyone else.

What i will mention without naming is the volume of private messages I have had from this thread from mums that have found comments upsetting but don't wish to get involved in the thread, purely because, i imagine they don't want to face some of these type of comments.


----------



## ihatework (27 November 2017)

Farma said:



			Wow just wow, so I am arrogant and self entitled because I hadn't come across any child free yards before moving and struggled to find somewhere in a new area, struggled with the idea that a lot of horse people didn't want children on yards at all? I asked for opinions because it shocked me, I cant lie it did because I hadn't seen it before, maybe it is more apparent to me because i work with horses so i am on so many yards with so many kids, I didn't say I was hard done by and I never called anyone mean, nor did i say they should change their rules, you have spewed this inflated version of vitriol all by yourself. That says a lot more about you than anyone else.

What i will mention without naming is the volume of private messages I have had from this thread from mums that have found comments upsetting but don't wish to get involved in the thread, purely because, i imagine they don't want to face some of these type of comments.
		
Click to expand...

Thing is, wether you are a child lover, a child hater or somewhere in between surely you can see and appreciate that a toddler on a livery yard is a liability waiting to happen? You need eyes in the back of your head at all times. With babies you can strap them in their buggy and put them somewhere safe. With older kids they have the ability to follow instructions to help keep them safe. But with toddlers, even well parented ones, they are a law unto themselves.

I&#8217;m just not sure how you could safely have a toddler and a horse on DIY and try and do the jobs with your horse while managing the toddler. I would never forgive myself if one of my horses hurt someone&#8217;s child, but I would be the one distancing myself from anyone bringing a toddler into a yard routinely I&#8217;m afraid

And BTW the eventer you eluded it sounded like they always had someone else with them on child minding/herding duties when they were competing


----------



## SEL (27 November 2017)

I don't know why mums would find the thread upsetting though. Yes there's the odd comment that is a bit over the top - but let's be honest, you get that on most threads with a contentious subject.

The vast majority of people on here have said that they don't mind children on yards if they are well behaved. I'm not sure why that should upset anyone. Yards that have banned children have likely done it because the YO / staff / clients have had a bad experience - you can't criticise them for that. Criticise the parents who didn't look after their kids properly and ruined it for everyone else maybe, but not the yards.


----------



## Merlod (27 November 2017)

Farma said:



			Wow just wow, so I am arrogant and self entitled because I hadn't come across any child free yards before moving and struggled to find somewhere in a new area, struggled with the idea that a lot of horse people didn't want children on yards at all? I asked for opinions because it shocked me, I cant lie it did because I hadn't seen it before, maybe it is more apparent to me because i work with horses so i am on so many yards with so many kids, I didn't say I was hard done by and I never called anyone mean, nor did i say they should change their rules, you have spewed this inflated version of vitriol all by yourself. That says a lot more about you than anyone else.
		
Click to expand...

Judging by your "shock" and failure throughout this entire thread to understand why not every yard should be accepting of your child and your agreement with some of the more derogatory comments to "non-breeders" it's pretty clear to see the shoe does fit and only confirms more for me that running a child-free yard is the way to go.


----------



## AandK (27 November 2017)

ihatework said:



			Thing is, wether you are a child lover, a child hater or somewhere in between surely you can see and appreciate that a toddler on a livery yard is a liability waiting to happen? You need eyes in the back of your head at all times. With babies you can strap them in their buggy and put them somewhere safe. With older kids they have the ability to follow instructions to help keep them safe. But with toddlers, even well parented ones, they are a law unto themselves.

I&#8217;m just not sure how you could safely have a toddler and a horse on DIY and try and do the jobs with your horse while managing the toddler. I would never forgive myself if one of my horses hurt someone&#8217;s child, but I would be the one distancing myself from anyone bringing a toddler into a yard routinely I&#8217;m afraid

And BTW the eventer you eluded it sounded like they always had someone else with them on child minding/herding duties when they were competing
		
Click to expand...

Agree with all of this.  Having seen first hand the devastation that can be caused by horses and small children not mixing well, I am not a fan of seeing them wondering around yards. It only takes a split second for irreparable damage to be done.



SEL said:



			I don't know why mums would find the thread upsetting though. Yes there's the odd comment that is a bit over the top - but let's be honest, you get that on most threads with a contentious subject.

The vast majority of people on here have said that they don't mind children on yards if they are well behaved. I'm not sure why that should upset anyone. Yards that have banned children have likely done it because the YO / staff / clients have had a bad experience - you can't criticise them for that. Criticise the parents who didn't look after their kids properly and ruined it for everyone else maybe, but not the yards.
		
Click to expand...

100% agree.


----------



## Farma (27 November 2017)

ihatework said:



			Thing is, wether you are a child lover, a child hater or somewhere in between surely you can see and appreciate that a toddler on a livery yard is a liability waiting to happen? You need eyes in the back of your head at all times. With babies you can strap them in their buggy and put them somewhere safe. With older kids they have the ability to follow instructions to help keep them safe. But with toddlers, even well parented ones, they are a law unto themselves.

I&#8217;m just not sure how you could safely have a toddler and a horse on DIY and try and do the jobs with your horse while managing the toddler. I would never forgive myself if one of my horses hurt someone&#8217;s child, but I would be the one distancing myself from anyone bringing a toddler into a yard routinely I&#8217;m afraid

And BTW the eventer you eluded it sounded like they always had someone else with them on child minding/herding duties when they were competing
		
Click to expand...

Of course I accept that and as I said he only comes with me on occasion, and even then I would only do the minimum while he was with me. I am talking maybe twice a week, I pay for a lot of services but I do like to take him now and again, and he doesn't go near anyone else's horse but my own. As other mums on the thread have quoted they do manage but generally with the minimum to do.

The eventer in question did not have help at all competitions and certainly not always at the yard (she would have done at be events), I met her to go xc schooling once and she had bought her baby in the pram and nobody to help, at a particular local venue she asked the secretary to watch one of them while she did a round I recall. Her instructor used to hang on to them while teaching aswell! Funny enough my instructor said he is happy to babysit while teaching but I personally would be way too distracted, I struggle to ride properly at the best of times!


----------



## tallyho! (27 November 2017)

Merlod said:



			Or perhaps we are sick of the arrogant, self-entitled opinions of those with children - that we should all be expected to bend over backwards and change rules to accomodate them. I'm sorry but if a yard is "no children" then they need to accept that, not start a thread about and how hard done by they are and how mean "child-free" people are.
		
Click to expand...

 Have you read the thread? 

I think everyone (including those with children) on this thread agrees that children & yards don't mix all the time. The OP was asking for opinions. By hell she got them...

The only hard-done by people it seems, by the very angry tones from people besieged by the blight of "breeders", in this thread seem to be people like you.

Think comments like this will be making it into H&H this week, judging by how many times it's been tagged and shared. I think it's been an interesting thread to read all round


----------



## ihatework (27 November 2017)

Farma said:



			Of course I accept that and as I said he only comes with me on occasion, and even then I would only do the minimum while he was with me. I am talking maybe twice a week, I pay for a lot of services but I do like to take him now and again, and he doesn't go near anyone else's horse but my own. As other mums on the thread have quoted they do manage but generally with the minimum to do.

The eventer in question did not have help at all competitions and certainly not always at the yard (she would have done at be events), I met her to go xc schooling once and she had bought her baby in the pram and nobody to help, at a particular local venue she asked the secretary to watch one of them while she did a round I recall. Her instructor used to hang on to them while teaching aswell! Funny enough my instructor said he is happy to babysit while teaching but I personally would be way too distracted, I struggle to ride properly at the best of times!
		
Click to expand...

Well that&#8217;s completely her perogative, but something I would only be tolerant of for a very good friend I&#8217;m afraid.

Bear in mind this isn&#8217;t about &#8216;you&#8217; it&#8217;s about yard policy. So you can see that having young children on a yard is hazardous. If a yard said &#8216;only well parented children allowed&#8217; then it would be every child allowed, because let&#8217;s face it no mother thinks they would fall into the bad catagory  I can completely see why some yards are adult only. But yes, I bet there would be a killing to be made if you could set up a child safe yard with minding duties included! London yummy mummy catchment springs to mind. Would be a winner for sure!


----------



## Tiddlypom (27 November 2017)

Farma said:



			What i will mention without naming is the volume of private messages I have had from this thread from mums that have found comments upsetting but don't wish to get involved in the thread, purely because, i imagine they don't want to face some of these type of comments.
		
Click to expand...

Oh the old chestnut of the horde of HHOers who are too wimpy to post in a thread but will pm their support to a beleaguered poster   !!

Btw I am a mum.

Did the eventer leave her baby unattended in a pram whilst she went xc schooling, then?


----------



## Farma (27 November 2017)

Tiddlypom said:



			Oh the old chestnut of the horde of HHOers who are too wimpy to post in a thread but will pm their support to a beleaguered poster   !!

Btw I am a mum.

Did the eventer leave her baby unattended in a pram whilst she went xc schooling, then?
		
Click to expand...

Is that a normal occurrence then I have no idea?? 

Yes she pushed her out onto the course in the pram and we all did the fences in the area nearby and then moved elsewhere with the buggy so it was never out of sight! That was just one of many examples, I was just stating that she was quite determined to manage her child and horses and made it very public and received huge support, perhaps that's another reason and experience I had that made the whole situation and lack of acceptance a surprise.


----------



## Tiddlypom (27 November 2017)

At least little 'un was within sight, but it's not something that I would ever had done. What if someone fell off and a loose horse was charging around near the pram?

A former neighbour used to leave her firstborn home alone in his cot when she went out exercising her hunters.


----------



## Farma (27 November 2017)

Tiddlypom said:



			At least little 'un was within sight, but it's not something that I would ever had done. What if someone fell off and a loose horse was charging around near the pram?

A former neighbour used to leave her firstborn home alone in his cot when she went out exercising her hunters.
		
Click to expand...

No me neither, I know a lot of similar examples, I only want mine to pop in for half hour a few times a week


----------



## MotherOfChickens (27 November 2017)

I've never understood why parents can't/won't stick small kids in large dog crates and older ones in stables with top doors shut.


----------



## conniegirl (27 November 2017)

Twice a week is not occasionally or rarely it falls firmly under the regularly category.

The yard is no children and a lot of people like that about yards. You chose to exclude youraelf by having a child.

Stop wingeing about it and find somewhere that does allow children.

Just because people choose to breed does not mean they have the right to inflict said child on everyone else. 

There are very few truely adult spaces left due to people throwing out the descrimination card, so now you cant even go to very fancy restaurants without potentially  being faced with screaming children!


----------



## SpottyMare (27 November 2017)

Farma said:



			Is that a normal occurrence then I have no idea?? 

Yes she pushed her out onto the course in the pram and we all did the fences in the area nearby and then moved elsewhere with the buggy so it was never out of sight!
		
Click to expand...

I actually find this quite scary, and am surprised the venue allowed it.  If anything had happened, it is unlikely that their insurance would have paid out, as insurance covers unforseen accidents where accepted protocols have been followed, whereas allowing a child in a buggy on a x country course could be said to be negligent.

To answer your first post, I don't think it is quite so cut and dried as yards banning children because they don't like them, and I find it interesting that you've moved from one area where they were generally accepted, to another where they aren't - could be something happened locally to cause it.  

Other reasons could be as simple as the yard owners starting to look more closely at health and safety as society becomes increasingly more litigious (see the article on h&h about the woman who tried to sue her yard owner because she bought a horse that her YO had advised her not to buy and then she got bucked off it 2 months later), insurance premiums, reputation, or that they have been bitten by aforementioned feral/unsupervised children breaking things, causing problems or getting injured.

If it is the latter, then you can't really blame the YO for protecting their business, and the only answer to that is a blanket ban.

In the interests of full disclosure I am childless by choice and on a yard that children frequent and I'm fine with that - I even speak to them   They are all kids that are interested in horses though, and want to be there (including the toddler).


----------



## Rowreach (27 November 2017)

MotherOfChickens said:



			I've never understood why parents can't/won't stick small kids in large dog crates and older ones in stables with top doors shut.
		
Click to expand...

My GP once regaled me with the story of his neighbour, who used to tie her children onto their ponies to make sure they wouldn't fall off when she went out shopping.  Two birds with one stone .....


----------



## Rowreach (27 November 2017)

On a more serious note, and speaking as a mum who ran a livery yard/taught/competed all through their younger years, and made damned sure they were properly looked after, I am really shocked at some of the examples of how people "manage" their young children while doing horses.

Leading three "quiet" horses in and out of the field while pushing a buggy????

Going XC schooling with your baby in a pram???

Asking the comp secretary to babysit while you compete??? (I know what I'd have told her ...)

Aside from anything else, if something happens to you while you are riding/competing/turning your horse out, who the heck is going to look after your baby??

This thread is an eye opener for sure.


----------



## luckyoldme (27 November 2017)

Tiddlypom said:



			At least little 'un was within sight, but it's not something that I would ever had done. What if someone fell off and a loose horse was charging around near the pram?

A former neighbour used to leave her firstborn home alone in his cot when she went out exercising her hunters.
		
Click to expand...

That's actually worse than what the mccanns did.


----------



## Jack110 (27 November 2017)

Why is it only 'mums' get to be upset, I have had many occasions ruined by other peoples badly parented children. Meals out, plane rides, if they intruded on time with my horses I would have words.  Children are a choice, other people are under no obligation to deal with or put up with them.  I have previously stated some women can't have them and suffer silently, while having to fend of smug comments from mums who say the most hurtful things.


----------



## SadKen (27 November 2017)

Interesting thread! 



Rowreach said:



			Asking the comp secretary to babysit while you compete??? (I know what I'd have told her ...)
		
Click to expand...

For me, the above says that the mum wanted to compete so much that she put her own desires above the safety of her child - it isn't sensible to leave a child with a stranger IMO.

How about: if the yard rule was no turnout during winter months, then your horse needed 24 hour turnout, would you be shocked when the yard wasn't supportive of the request? 

This for me has nothing to do with the kiddy element (I like kids, especially keen ones). It's as simple as: if a yard has certain rules, you need to stick to them, or find a new yard; you can't expect flexibility to allow you to break any rule.  There shouldn't be any emotion involved. The only reason that there is, in this thread, is because children provoke emotional responses (whether you like them or loathe them!).


----------



## luckyoldme (27 November 2017)

Rowreach said:



			On a more serious note, and speaking as a mum who ran a livery yard/taught/competed all through their younger years, and made damned sure they were properly looked after, I am really shocked at some of the examples of how people "manage" their young children while doing horses.

Leading three "quiet" horses in and out of the field while pushing a buggy????

Going XC schooling with your baby in a pram???

Asking the comp secretary to babysit while you compete??? (I know what I'd have told her ...)

Aside from anything else, if something happens to you while you are riding/competing/turning your horse out, who the heck is going to look after your baby??

This thread is an eye opener for sure.
		
Click to expand...

That poster said she was taking a risk but it was a calculated one? I can't believe I read that.


----------



## Widgeon (27 November 2017)

luckyoldme said:



			That poster said she was taking a risk but it was a calculated one? I can't believe I read that.
		
Click to expand...

I can see why you might be shocked, but surely all of life is a calculated risk? Leaving a baby sleeping on its own in a cot overnight is a calculated risk. It's just a question of where you personally draw the line, and that's going to be different for everyone isn't it? Personally I probably wouldn't bring in horses with a baby in a pram, but judging those who do is surely somewhere on a slippery slope? I agree that inflicting the care of your children on other unwilling adults is unacceptable (and totally agree that YOs are probably rightly worried about accidents) but I'm a bit uncomfortable with the general tone of judging parents for their parenting choices.

Edited to say, I didn't mean that to read as "I'm offended by your thoughts and am going to retreat to my safe space"! You are of course entitled to hold your opinion!


----------



## pansymouse (27 November 2017)

minesadouble said:



			Wow, I think it's a good job that some of the non-breeders on here haven't bred as the lack of good manners of some is astounding!
		
Click to expand...

Remember for some of us childlessness isn't a choice and being in the company of people who appear to be casual/neglectful parents is upsetting.


----------



## luckyoldme (27 November 2017)

Widgeon said:



			I can see why you might be shocked, but surely all of life is a calculated risk? Leaving a baby sleeping on its own in a cot overnight is a calculated risk. It's just a question of where you personally draw the line, and that's going to be different for everyone isn't it? Personally I probably wouldn't bring in horses with a baby in a pram, but judging those who do is surely somewhere on a slippery slope? I agree that inflicting the care of your children on other unwilling adults is unacceptable (and totally agree that YOs are probably rightly worried about accidents) but I'm a bit uncomfortable with the general tone of judging parents for their parenting choices.

Edited to say, I didn't mean that to read as "I'm offended by your thoughts and am going to retreat to my safe space"! You are of course entitled to hold your opinion!
		
Click to expand...

this is the thing though, the minute anyone expresses an opinion about anything these days we are classed as judgemental. If you follow your thoughts through then its judgemental to say that its madness to push a pram whilst leading a horse. It might end up with a pram underneath a horse (unless the owner is the one person in the whole world who can say for sure that her horses will never ever behave in an unexpected way no matter what the circumstances are) but thats a risk worth taking? And whos risk is it to take anyways? Chances are its not going to be the mother who gets hurt if it all went wrong.


----------



## AlohaCob (27 November 2017)

SEL said:



			I don't know why mums would find the thread upsetting though. Yes there's the odd comment that is a bit over the top - but let's be honest, you get that on most threads with a contentious subject.

The vast majority of people on here have said that they don't mind children on yards if they are well behaved. I'm not sure why that should upset anyone. Yards that have banned children have likely done it because the YO / staff / clients have had a bad experience - you can't criticise them for that. Criticise the parents who didn't look after their kids properly and ruined it for everyone else maybe, but not the yards.
		
Click to expand...

This times a million.  Unsupervised kids on yards are pretty much what the majority on this thread have issues with.  I had one 6 year old girl run up behind my mare while I was hand grazing her screaming at me not to let her eat grass.  I had to get between mare's hind and child to tell her not to run and scream.  Luckily, my horse was having a good day...sometimes that would spook her and other times she did not care.  Where was parent?  Who the hell knows?  I would not want my horse to hurt anyone, period.  The horse i now have is extremely chilled, but the barn he is at luckily has rules that people follow.  Children under 16 not allowed without a parent.  Running around like a lunatic is not tolerated.  The kids there are well behaved, ergo, I personally have no problem.  At the other place?  I had a major problem and left.  Why this opinion and many others like it would upset mums makes me shake my head.  And yes, I am a 'non-breeder'.  Nice term.  Very 'respectful'.


----------



## minesadouble (27 November 2017)

The term &#8216;non-breeders&#8217; was adapted from a statement made by one of the self confessed &#8216;child haters&#8217; on here!
We have a large livery yard and I have to say the adults with a vast lack of knowledge dishing out ill informed advice to others infuriate me way more than any of the children.


----------



## SO1 (27 November 2017)

If she really was on her own that is not only dangerous but selfish.  If she had fallen off and hurt herself and not been able to drive the lorry back home not only would she have needed to find someone to help her with her horse but also would have had to find someone to look after her baby until help came.

She would be pushing a buggy and leading a horse at regular intervals to move on the next area as well. 

I don't think anyone is saying that it is not possible for people to have children and horses but that they need suitable support so as not to put their child at risk. I expect this eventer was lucky enough to know enough people at competitions who were willing to help her out as if she was on her truly on her own she would be leaving her child unattended out of sight whilst doing the x country phase.   

I also agree that people have become more litigious especially with the no win no fee solicitors around and some YO's may be worried that a parent would sue them if the child had a serious accident on the yard. Yards that do accept children should probably have a safeguarding policy. The law also says if a parent leaves a child unsupervised in a manner likely to cause unnecessary suffering or injury to health, they can be prosecuted so people do need to think carefully about ensuring children are considered to be properly supervised and not at risk should a horse get loose on the yard. 

Sadly the parents that do not supervise their children properly have spoiled it for those that do and perhaps this is leading to more yards not being willing to accept children which is a shame as properly supervised and educated children can be a delight to have around.




Farma said:



			Is that a normal occurrence then I have no idea?? 

Yes she pushed her out onto the course in the pram and we all did the fences in the area nearby and then moved elsewhere with the buggy so it was never out of sight! That was just one of many examples, I was just stating that she was quite determined to manage her child and horses and made it very public and received huge support, perhaps that's another reason and experience I had that made the whole situation and lack of acceptance a surprise.
		
Click to expand...


----------



## zaminda (28 November 2017)

I have no problem with anyone on a yard as long as they are polite, don't take things that don't belong to them and don't jeopardize their own or my safety. That applies regardless of age. We have a lady on the yard with the most difficult set of kids who just run riot. They are better when horses are around but compared to some of the stories on this thread they are mild. 
I think a few people have taken umbrage at the idea not everyone wants children on a yard but I can understand why many don't. I don't see why people should be expected to baby sit other people's children or always be on the look out when they are trying to enjoy their hobby. 
I come from a non horsey family and got my own as a teenager. There were lots of kids on the yard but we were expected to be useful and polite. Much has changed since then as kids appear to ignore adults far more these days and there is an overriding sense of entitlement within society.


----------



## Tiddlypom (28 November 2017)

I used to enjoy reading the eventer's blogs. Well written and very amusing. She always seemed to have help with child care at whilst at the competitions that she reported on. Maybe the instances of the unattended baby on the xc course and a child being thrust at a show secretary may have been isolated ones for her.  However, I certainly  have come across similar instances of fiercely focussed parents who are determined to keep on with their pre child activities despite lack of suitable back up and child care.

I find the term 'non breeders' to be pretty offensive. It certainly wasn't just the child free who are unhappy about aspects of children on livery yards.


----------



## scats (28 November 2017)

This thread has reminded me of a lady who arrived at my old yard when I was a teenager.  She had a baby who was about 9 months old and regularly locked him in his push chair in the stable while she went hacking for anywhere up to an hour.  
Despite the fact that I'm not particularly child friendly, me and my friends started offering to look after him for her while she went as it just seemed such an awful thing to do!


----------



## Smogul (28 November 2017)

Farma said:



			The eventer in question did not have help at all competitions and certainly not always at the yard (she would have done at be events), I met her to go xc schooling once and she had bought her baby in the pram and nobody to help, at a particular local venue she asked the secretary to watch one of them while she did a round I recall.
		
Click to expand...

The arrogance of that is breath taking. A secretary at any event is not there as an unpaid baby sitter.


----------



## Fragglerock (28 November 2017)

We were hacking at the weekend and a small child had a large branch and tried to hit our horses - his mum told him not to and he asked why not - charming child!  Anyway that was off topic but having read this I'm glad I have my own place and don't have to put up with other mardy adults/children/dogs.


----------



## ILuvCowparsely (28 November 2017)

Fragglerock said:



			We were hacking at the weekend and a small child had a large branch and tried to hit our horses - his mum told him not to and he asked why not - charming child!  Anyway that was off topic but having read this I'm glad I have my own place and don't have to put up with other mardy adults/children/dogs.
		
Click to expand...

I think my answer to a kid saying why not would be -because you will get a flying lesson if the horse kicks out and gets you.


----------



## ester (28 November 2017)

Smogul said:



			The arrogance of that is breath taking. A secretary at any event is not there as an unpaid baby sitter.
		
Click to expand...

Ermm as she is no longer here to clarify herself I do feel that it is worth pointing out that from her posts I thought that HotToTrot did know the secretary at Norton Heath quite well, and she did babysit on more than one occasion (and knowing lots of show secretaries they would not have been shy in saying no if they were not ok with it!)


----------



## ihatework (28 November 2017)

ester said:



			Ermm as she is no longer here to clarify herself I do feel that it is worth pointing out that from her posts I thought that HotToTrot did know the secretary at Norton Heath quite well, and she did babysit on more than one occasion (and knowing lots of show secretaries they would not have been shy in saying no if they were not ok with it!)
		
Click to expand...

And to be honest she probably wouldn&#8217;t thank anyone for third party tittle tattle when she isn&#8217;t here to defend herself! Not aimed at you Ester btw.


----------



## ester (28 November 2017)

No, I was finding it a bit uncomfortable analysing the childcare choices of a once fairly prolific member on here, who was often writing for dramatic effect.


----------



## Farma (28 November 2017)

ester said:



			Ermm as she is no longer here to clarify herself I do feel that it is worth pointing out that from her posts I thought that HotToTrot did know the secretary at Norton Heath quite well, and she did babysit on more than one occasion (and knowing lots of show secretaries they would not have been shy in saying no if they were not ok with it!)
		
Click to expand...

No I wasn't trying to throw her under the bus here, more use the examples of her managing her childcare whilst competing and having horses and making light of it! The secretary didn't mind at all, it was just mentioned above she always had people with her to manage the children and she didn't always have help. I was always in admiration of how she managed and I didn't even have any children at the time, I certainly didn't mean for her to be under scrutiny I just knew her as a mother who juggled both before I had my own. She got on fine and nobody minded that I know of!


----------



## criso (28 November 2017)

Smogul said:



			The arrogance of that is breath taking. A secretary at any event is not there as an unpaid baby sitter.
		
Click to expand...

Lucky she agreed.  I've had them reluctant if I want to leave a high viz tabard with them when I've hacked to a show and taken it off to compete.


----------



## Widgeon (28 November 2017)

luckyoldme said:



			this is the thing though, the minute anyone expresses an opinion about anything these days we are classed as judgemental. If you follow your thoughts through then its judgemental to say that its madness to push a pram whilst leading a horse. It might end up with a pram underneath a horse (unless the owner is the one person in the whole world who can say for sure that her horses will never ever behave in an unexpected way no matter what the circumstances are) but thats a risk worth taking? And whos risk is it to take anyways? Chances are its not going to be the mother who gets hurt if it all went wrong.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, fair point. That's why I like this forum - because at its best, what you are getting is peoples' (relatively) unfiltered views, which makes quite a nice change from "real life" where you so often have to keep your mouth shut for fear of being told that your opinion is not valid because it is unkind/judgmental/excessively privileged etc etc. Personally I think it would be judgmental to say that ever pushing a pram whilst leading a horse makes you a bad parent, but that's different to expressing the opinion that pushing a pram whilst leading a horse is a mad thing to do. Anyway it's a fine line I suppose, and perhaps difficult to explain in a forum post. I will keep quiet now I think as I didn't mean to derail the conversation - sorry!


----------



## Farma (28 November 2017)

Widgeon said:



			Yes, fair point. That's why I like this forum - because at its best, what you are getting is peoples' (relatively) unfiltered views, which makes quite a nice change from "real life" where you so often have to keep your mouth shut for fear of being told that your opinion is not valid because it is unkind/judgmental/excessively privileged etc etc. Personally I think it would be judgmental to say that ever pushing a pram whilst leading a horse makes you a bad parent, but that's different to expressing the opinion that pushing a pram whilst leading a horse is a mad thing to do. Anyway it's a fine line I suppose, and perhaps difficult to explain in a forum post. I will keep quiet now I think as I didn't mean to derail the conversation - sorry!
		
Click to expand...

Yes you are so right! again without derailing that is the fear with the change to the bd forum (people having to use real names now rather than an alias) as that will take away the sense of the unfiltered view points and everyone will be most likely be much more careful and pc!


----------



## GemG (28 November 2017)

There's a sad stereotypical and unfair view (in my opinion) displayed by a minority of posters that parents (and mums for some reason in particular?!) should be on Mumsnet where they belong, give up horses as after all people give up dogs apparently when they have a baby, these mums care of nothing other than their blue eyed boy/girl and everyone should cater for them, their kids do no wrong, place their children in danger, disrupt their schooling sessions, etc... 

Well, that may be the case in a minority of parents, but definitely not all.  Mumsnet... ergh!

I have been childless and non maternal and now have a family (happily) and do my best to bring them up to be decent human beings (as do some other parents too!), so can see it from both sides, but I would feel (rightly or wrongly) unfairly treated if I had to leave somewhere because I brought my children with me sometimes.


----------



## GemG (28 November 2017)

Oh and Maternaventing blog is/was fab.. my heroine! I struggle to find time to keep mine /get mine fit, let alone compete at decent level BE ...!


----------



## GemG (28 November 2017)

Incidentally....  Good job youngest child starts nursery Jan 2018 ...   nicely before our homebred (horse) is ready to begin being backed this Spring.    

...Good timing eh! ;-)

Sorry, heading off thread... but want to share my joy.


----------



## Farma (28 November 2017)

GemG said:



			Incidentally....  Good job youngest child starts nursery Jan 2018 ...   nicely before our homebred (horse) is ready to begin being backed this Spring.    

...Good timing eh! ;-)

Sorry, heading off thread... but want to share my joy.
		
Click to expand...

Awesome timing! Mine starts school just as my youngster turns 3 :0)


----------



## GemG (28 November 2017)

Farma said:



			Awesome timing! Mine starts school just as my youngster turns 3 :0)
		
Click to expand...

Fantastic! Well done... that's great. Yes, I think I would have very reluctantly sold the filly if timing was different, it would be unmanageable for me otherwise.


----------



## ester (28 November 2017)

I think dogs were only mentioned because it was stated that people categorically don't give up their dogs... when actually you only have to hang around facebook a bit to see that is certainly not the case. 
And I think Mum's not Dad's because no Dad's have posted/we don't have many on here so more relevant to the conversation?

I agree that it would feel awkward/difficult/sad to have to leave somewhere because you had produced children during your horse ownership.


----------



## Tiddlypom (28 November 2017)

If we're talking cats and dogs... we rehomed (not 'got rid of') one dog and one cat when son no 1 arrived. 

It was a calculated risk assessment. Jacko was a lovely collie/whippet cross but he was always uber noise sensitive. The mildest of raised voices had him in a panic, so there was no way he was going to cope with the bawling and squawking of a new born. We found him a fab home with someone who was used to and loved dogs but who didn't want a puppy. The cat went to my cat loving MIL, as I was indeed worried about her (the cat!) curling up to sleep on the baby's face.

Neither animal was 'got rid of', but a more suitable environment was found for both. We did keep the then JRT, who was a star with the lads from the off. And we also kept the two horses, who we keep at home. I continued to ride as and when I had someone to look after the baby .

I still got a really @rsey phone call from some nutter who ranted on about me disposing of the dog just because I had had a baby.

ETA I was hoping no one would identify 'the eventer', as not everyone would have been aware of who the OP was referring to.


----------



## conniegirl (28 November 2017)

GemG said:



			I have been childless and non maternal and now have a family (happily) and do my best to bring them up to be decent human beings (as do some other parents too!), so can see it from both sides, but I would feel (rightly or wrongly) unfairly treated if I had to leave somewhere because I brought my children with me sometimes.
		
Click to expand...

Why unfairly treated? the rules were there before they went to the yard and they were aware of the rule, why is it unfair that they cannot take thier child?
Why would you be entitled to regularly (twice a week according to OP) break the rules just because you have had a child?
Why are the other liveries not entitled to have some child free time on a yard they have very possibly chosen (in-part) for its no child policy?


----------



## Abi90 (28 November 2017)

Tiddlypom said:



			If we're talking cats and dogs... we rehomed (not 'got rid of') one dog and one cat when son no 1 arrived. 

It was a calculated risk assessment. Jacko was a lovely collie/whippet cross but he was always uber noise sensitive. The mildest of raised voices had him in a panic, so there was no way he was going to cope with the bawling and squawking of a new born. We found him a fab home with someone who was used to and loved dogs but who didn't want a puppy. The cat went to my cat loving MIL, as I was indeed worried about her (the cat!) curling up to sleep on the baby's face.

Neither animal was 'got rid of', but a more suitable environment was found for both. We did keep the then JRT, who was a star with the lads from the off. And we also kept the two horses, who we keep at home. I continued to ride as and when I had someone to look after the baby .

I still got a really @rsey phone call from some nutter who ranted on about me disposing of the dog just because I had had a baby.

ETA I was hoping no one would identify 'the eventer', as not everyone would have been aware of who the OP was referring to.
		
Click to expand...

I think the dogs were mentioned because someone said "no one would give up a pet dog for a baby so why should they give up a horse". The response being that actually it does happen because sometimes the family home is no longer a suitable environment for said dog, or cat. And that if a horse no longer fits into a family routine then perhaps people should consider that at that point in time they can no
Longer Own a horse and may have to return to ownership later on, when children go to school perhaps.


----------



## EventingMum (28 November 2017)

With regard to competing; I stopped competing when my son was born. My horse was Grade A and virtually every schedule had the bigger classes on last so it would have inevitably meant being out way past my son's bedtime (and he was an unusual baby in that he very much like his sleep!). Our lorry was old and basic, not really suitable to have a baby in for any length of time, I may have felt different if we'd had grooms and a flash, all singing all dancing lorry with good heating etc but in all honesty I saw some fellow competitors with miserable, small children out competing on cold evenings and I clearly remember saying I didn't have a baby to drag him up in the back of a lorry.  I did venture out to a couple of shows in the summer when he was 2 or 3 but my mum and Mr EM came too, after that I retired the Grade A and only did the odd low level competition on other horses when I had a babysitter. A few years later before I knew it my son was competing and there was no time for me to consider starting again anyway!


----------



## Rowreach (28 November 2017)

Widgeon said:



			Personally I think it would be judgmental to say that ever pushing a pram whilst leading a horse makes you a bad parent, but that's different to expressing the opinion that pushing a pram whilst leading a horse is a mad thing to do. QUOTE]

I think the poster in question was pushing a pram while leading three horses, which would make most of us wonder at the H&S aspect of things ....
		
Click to expand...


----------



## Antw23uk (28 November 2017)

All these issues could be easily solved if people just didn't breed!


----------



## skint1 (28 November 2017)

I think serious equestrian women who then go on to have children must feel quite torn a lot of the time.


----------



## Abi90 (28 November 2017)

Antw23uk said:



			All these issues could be easily solved if people just didn't breed!
		
Click to expand...

Famine, war, drought and overpopulation could also be solved. There are far too many people on this planet as it is!


----------



## ycbm (28 November 2017)

GemG said:



			I would feel (rightly or wrongly) unfairly treated if I had to leave somewhere because I brought my children with me sometimes.
		
Click to expand...

If the yard  had a no children policy, then 'wrongly' is the answer, pretty obviously, surely? If a yard has a no smoking policy would you expect to be allowed to start smoking there because you have started smoking? Or take a dog to a 'no dogs' yard because you had bought one? Or put a mare in foal at a 'no foaling or young stock'  yard?


----------



## gunnergundog (28 November 2017)

Antw23uk said:



			All these issues could be easily solved if people just didn't breed!
		
Click to expand...




Abi90 said:



			Famine, war, drought and overpopulation could also be solved. There are far too many people on this planet as it is!
		
Click to expand...

Totally agree!  I would go so far as to say that we subject our animals to various tests before allowing them to breed so maybe those that wish to procreate should also be tested?  I am thinking not just health and temperament testing but also proving that you have the financial wherewithal to raise a child without seeking support from the state.  Benefits, if necessary to incentivise, would be given for remaining childless as opposed to currently reproducing.

A common sense test and a parenting exam should also be obligatory.  No family unit would be allowed more than two offspring in my ideal world.  

Now off to open a bottle of wine and wait for the Mumsnet brigade to descend! 

Yours,

A non-breeder (through choice)


----------



## Abi90 (28 November 2017)

gunnergundog said:



			Totally agree!  I would go so far as to say that we subject our animals to various tests before allowing them to breed so maybe those that wish to procreate should also be tested?  I am thinking not just health and temperament testing but also proving that you have the financial wherewithal to raise a child without seeking support from the state.  Benefits, if necessary to incentivise, would be given for remaining childless as opposed to currently reproducing.

A common sense test and a parenting exam should also be obligatory.  No family unit would be allowed more than two offspring in my ideal world.  

Now off to open a bottle of wine and wait for the Mumsnet brigade to descend! 

Yours,

A non-breeder (through choice)
		
Click to expand...

Ooo off into the realms of Eugenics! Which is very controversial. Although it would solve a lot of problems if we did health test people. 

I'm not a fan of children but I'm not sure I want to bring a child into this world as it currently is anyway!


----------



## Jack110 (28 November 2017)

gunnergundog said:



			Totally agree!  I would go so far as to say that we subject our animals to various tests before allowing them to breed so maybe those that wish to procreate should also be tested?  I am thinking not just health and temperament testing but also proving that you have the financial wherewithal to raise a child without seeking support from the state.  Benefits, if necessary to incentivise, would be given for remaining childless as opposed to currently reproducing.

A common sense test and a parenting exam should also be obligatory.  No family unit would be allowed more than two offspring in my ideal world.  

Now off to open a bottle of wine and wait for the Mumsnet brigade to descend! 

Yours,

A non-breeder (through choice)
		
Click to expand...

&#55357;&#56834;&#55357;&#56834;&#55357;&#56834;&#55357;&#56834;&#55357;&#56834;&#55357;&#56834;&#55357;&#56834;&#55357;&#56834;&#55357;&#56834;


----------



## Jack110 (28 November 2017)

Jack110 said:



			&#65533;&#65533;&#65533;&#65533;&#65533;&#65533;&#65533;&#65533;&#65533;&#65533;&#65533;&#65533;&#65533;&#65533;&#65533;&#65533;&#65533;&#65533;
		
Click to expand...

 That should be laughing


----------



## DabDab (28 November 2017)

gunnergundog said:



			Totally agree!  I would go so far as to say that we subject our animals to various tests before allowing them to breed so maybe those that wish to procreate should also be tested?  I am thinking not just health and temperament testing but also proving that you have the financial wherewithal to raise a child without seeking support from the state.  Benefits, if necessary to incentivise, would be given for remaining childless as opposed to currently reproducing.

A common sense test and a parenting exam should also be obligatory.  No family unit would be allowed more than two offspring in my ideal world.  

Now off to open a bottle of wine and wait for the Mumsnet brigade to descend! 

Yours,

A non-breeder (through choice)
		
Click to expand...

Haha, I'm also a non breeder through choice, and that's primarily because I am far too selfish to want to adjust my life for the sake of a child that the world doesn't really need. 

I have to say that I am always surprised by parents who will tell you (usually in an ever so slightly condescending tone), how "you just don't realise how having children completely changes your life"....well yes, of course it does....this is why I don't have one...???

Having said that, I really don't mind children on yards - they bother me far more in the supermarket carpark or running along the pavement almost out of sight of the adult looking after them. Children on horse yards I have generally found to be quite pleasant and good fun to interact with....maybe Ive just been fortunate


----------



## ManBearPig (28 November 2017)

OP I don't get what the grievance is... You're on a child-free yard and people don't like it when you bring a child? Nope, still not getting it.

I don't particularly dislike kids, but I do dislike parents who expect everyone else to make unreasonable allowances for them and their spawn... If I had a pound for every time I've had to say "didn't your mum/dad tell you not to talk to strangers?" in public places, then the parents get all offended because I don't think their kid is worthy of looking up from my book to pay attention to.

Also, babies in prams on cross-country courses?! Sounds like natural selection waiting to happen.


----------



## ester (28 November 2017)

No the OP is on a child friendly yard and no one minds when she takes her toddler two days a week. .


----------



## Farma (28 November 2017)

ManBearPig said:



			OP I don't get what the grievance is... You're on a child-free yard and people don't like it when you bring a child? Nope, still not getting it.

I don't particularly dislike kids, but I do dislike parents who expect everyone else to make unreasonable allowances for them and their spawn... If I had a pound for every time I've had to say "didn't your mum/dad tell you not to talk to strangers?" in public places, then the parents get all offended because I don't think their kid is worthy of looking up from my book to pay attention to.

Also, babies in prams on cross-country courses?! Sounds like natural selection waiting to happen.
		
Click to expand...

Natural selection, seriously? If you go to any large be event especially somewhere like badminton or Burghley where there are large crowds, people with children even multiple children, their dogs etc, and all that separates them and the course is a piece of string in many places, so yes prams are effectively on xc courses even at the biggest of events, riders fall and horses bolt often at events but that doesn't mean that families wont be attending.


----------



## Farma (28 November 2017)

ester said:



			No the OP is on a child friendly yard and no one minds when she takes her toddler two days a week. .
		
Click to expand...

Yes I am, seems like I struck gold finding it reading some of the replies here.


----------



## Tiddlypom (29 November 2017)

*Supervised* prams at XC events where the carer can swiftly move the children out of danger are completely different to a parked *unattended* pram at XC practice!!!!! If indeed that happened, though the OP herself said it did.


----------



## Antw23uk (29 November 2017)

Farma said:



			Just wondered what peoples thoughts were on liveries taking their children/ babies down to do their horses with them? I seem to have encountered very odd attitudes and I am not sure if I am in cloud cuckoo world!
		
Click to expand...

Do the odd attitudes still seem odd to you after 30 pages of comments OP?


----------



## Luci07 (29 November 2017)

ILuvCowparsely said:



			I think my answer to a kid saying why not would be -because you will get a flying lesson if the horse kicks out and gets you.
		
Click to expand...

Speaking as an aunt and not a parent...that would not have bothered or surprised me. My nephews asked "why?" to everything when growing up and it's a child natural response. To you, it seems incredible that someone would go to hit an animal, but as a child, you would need guidance and all it would take was "it would hurt the horse" to ensure said child understood animals are sentient.


----------



## YorksG (29 November 2017)

Luci07 said:



			Speaking as an aunt and not a parent...that would not have bothered or surprised me. My nephews asked "why?" to everything when growing up and it's a child natural response. To you, it seems incredible that someone would go to hit an animal, but as a child, you would need guidance and all it would take was "it would hurt the horse" to ensure said child understood animals are sentient.
		
Click to expand...

Where as,I would expect the child to have been taught that hitting anything that didn't belong to the child, sentient or otherwise, was wrong and shouldn't be done.


----------



## Toffee44 (29 November 2017)

I am on a very child friendly yard. Most of them ride anyway or are too interested in feeding goats, pigs and chickens on the farm side of it to cause problem. Most of the time there are no kids in stable area as most of their ponies are on grass livery. Yes they are in the barn jumping bales and playing games but didn't we all do that. The barn is next to the school but if we ask them to stop jumping about they do and often say sorry and they take their games else where- the liveries children are normally there anyway and are very polite and well behaved. 

I never really feel children are left unsupervised there in the sense they are causing problems etc


----------



## Toffee44 (29 November 2017)

We are lucky that we have a lovely 40 min off road route leading from the yard. Mums, prams, multiple toddlers and shetlands go out most weekends. I have just started to lead my friends daughter out while mum leads second toddlers l. At 4yra old its great because when I trot her shetland canters and mummy can't run fast enough for that haha!


----------



## GemG (29 November 2017)

ycbm said:



			If the yard  had a no children policy, then 'wrongly' is the answer, pretty obviously, surely? If a yard has a no smoking policy would you expect to be allowed to start smoking there because you have started smoking? Or take a dog to a 'no dogs' yard because you had bought one? Or put a mare in foal at a 'no foaling or young stock'  yard?
		
Click to expand...

Well obviously if it were a 'no' children yard in the first place, I wouldn't be there in the first place. I'm not a complete idiot.


----------



## GemG (29 November 2017)

Farma said:



			Yes I am, seems like I struck gold finding it reading some of the replies here.
		
Click to expand...

Well, if the livery yards local to here banned children, there would hardly be any in existance. 

I'm tiring of some of the rather nasty comments some are making and maybe I should not take this so seriously, but some on here make me feel I shouldn't have had a family in the first place (spawn? Really!) ... and how dare I want to keep horses too.  I must be mad and selfish. That might seem simplistic.  I've never said folk without children should put up with rude, ungrateful brats dancing under their horses belly. I wouldn't want to either. 

Mumsnet brigade?  ... really, don't think so!


----------



## GemG (29 November 2017)

skint1 said:



			I think serious equestrian women who then go on to have children must feel quite torn a lot of the time.
		
Click to expand...

...and some not so serious equestrian women also.


----------



## Farma (29 November 2017)

Antw23uk said:



			Do the odd attitudes still seem odd to you after 30 pages of comments OP? 

Click to expand...

Yes, maybe more so to be honest.


----------



## ycbm (29 November 2017)

GemG said:



			Well obviously if it were a 'no' children yard in the first place, I wouldn't be there in the first place. I'm not a complete idiot.
		
Click to expand...

So I don't understand why you think you  would  be asked to leave if you took a child there?

This was what you wrote

'I would feel (rightly or wrongly) unfairly treated if I had to leave somewhere because I brought my children with me sometimes.'


----------



## ycbm (29 November 2017)

The catch 22 on this thread is that those of us who chose not to have children did so because we did not want the responsibly of children, and many of us because we don't want to be around children.  That means that we can completely understand why parents want to bring their children, because we worked out that's what the situation would be if  we had them, and did not want it.

But on the reverse side, most of those who have them seem completely unable to understand why, however well behaved the children may be, the intentionally childless would want adult only yards. Personally, I believe that this is part of nature's defence mechanism. Once you have children, you can't just get rid of them, and mental health depends on maintaining the belief that they are a positive thing. For some parents includes an inability to see why, for many other people, parenting would not have been a positive thing.

I have met two parents in my life who said, and meant it, that they wished they had never had them. They were both very unhappy people..


----------



## GemG (29 November 2017)

ycbm said:



			So I don't understand why you think you  would  be asked to leave if you took a child there?

This was what you wrote

'I would feel (rightly or wrongly) unfairly treated if I had to leave somewhere because I brought my children with me sometimes.'
		
Click to expand...

My post perhaps didn't read the way I thought it was intended to sound...  i apologise for that.  I meant if I had to move from a yard if they became non child friendly.     I did write that it was somewhere I brought my children sometimes, meaning I already had them (the children existed already) so it wouldn't be a non child yard in the first place would it, or I wouldn't have been allowed onto the yard initially!  So it reads correct actually.   

Yes, if that came into effect, that would be the rules and I would of course have to leave and move to some yummy mummy, litter ridden, disorganised, chaotic child 'friendly' yard, where kids and ponies run free and kids are swinging from the rafter.

I'm not explaining anymore as I have made my point, and said how I would feel, that's all.  

Didn't expect to get jumped on quite so much.


----------



## ycbm (29 November 2017)

No apology needed, I just didn't understand. I'd be cross too if I was on a yard that allowed children and got thrown off it because I took a child. 

I wonder if anyone on this thread has actually had that happen to them, and what the circumstances were?


----------



## GemG (29 November 2017)

ycbm said:



			The catch 22 on this thread is that those of us who chose not to have children did so because we did not want the responsibly of children, and many of us because we don't want to be around children.  That means that we can completely understand why parents want to bring their children, because we worked out that's what the situation would be if  we had them, and did not want it.

But on the reverse side, most of those who have them seem completely unable to understand why, however well behaved the children may be, the intentionally childless would want adult only yards. Personally, I believe that this is part of nature's defence mechanism. Once you have children, you can't just get rid of them, and mental health depends on maintaining the belief that they are a positive thing. For some parents includes an inability to see why, for many other people, parenting would not have been a positive thing.

I have met two parents in my life who said, and meant it, that they wished they had never had them. They were both very unhappy people..
		
Click to expand...

Absolutely. 

My life would undoubtedly be easier without, less stress massively by far.. it is incredibly hard and the single most difficult thing I've ever done. If I'd known the exact realities, I wouldn't probably not have had any. But I do and I have ... and I will obviously do my best to be the best parent I can to them and we do have great times too.  But it's incredibly draining and a difficult juggling act with horses.   But I feel if I gave up the horses I would lose part of who I am.   So it's hard to not take it personally when folk suggest, well folk 'get rid of dogs', - basically tough. If that makes sense.

I wasn't going to post again, but this thread struck a nerve. Damn it.


----------



## Abi90 (29 November 2017)

GemG said:



			Absolutely. 

My life would undoubtedly be easier without, less stress massively by far.. it is incredibly hard and the single most difficult thing I've ever done. If I'd known the exact realities, I wouldn't probably not have had any. But I do and I have ... and I will obviously do my best to be the best parent I can to them and we do have great times too.  But it's incredibly draining and a difficult juggling act with horses.   But I feel if I gave up the horses I would lose part of who I am.   So it's hard to not take it personally when folk suggest, well folk 'get rid of dogs', - basically tough. If that makes sense.

I wasn't going to post again, but this thread struck a nerve. Damn it.
		
Click to expand...

But no one wants you to give up your horses, just to keep them on child friendly yards so that child free yards can remain child free. What I take issue with is those who seemed baffled by the notion of child free yards and that some people should want to be away from them.

The reason I don't want kids is because I know I would have to sacrifice the horse, and it's not something I am willing to do so pre empting the choice by choosing to remain child free. Knowing that as soon as you have kids the choice is taken away from you and it has to be the horse that gives.


----------



## Tiddlypom (29 November 2017)

Steady on, ycbm, don't lump all of us parents together. There are lots (most) of us who love, look after and cherish our children, and who do not regret having them!


----------



## Pippity (29 November 2017)

GemG said:



			Absolutely. 

My life would undoubtedly be easier without, less stress massively by far.. it is incredibly hard and the single most difficult thing I've ever done. If I'd known the exact realities, I wouldn't probably not have had any. But I do and I have ... and I will obviously do my best to be the best parent I can to them and we do have great times too.  But it's incredibly draining and a difficult juggling act with horses.   But I feel if I gave up the horses I would lose part of who I am.   So it's hard to not take it personally when folk suggest, well folk 'get rid of dogs', - basically tough. If that makes sense.

I wasn't going to post again, but this thread struck a nerve. Damn it.
		
Click to expand...

I hope I haven't come across as condemning parents who do take their children to yards. I think most parents who do it accept that it isn't an ideal situation a lot of the time but equally, parenthood is tough enough even without giving up all your other interests. 

I've known some kids on yards who were smart, thoughtful and well-behaved, ages ranging from two to fifteen. They were supervised appropriately for their age and experience, and were as pleasant to be around as kids can be.

However, I'm simply not somebody who likes being around kids. And, unfortunately, kids seem to like being around me. (I blame it on being short.) 

I'm not going to tell kids to bog off if they aren't doing anything wrong, but I don't want to spend hours answering questions and teaching them things, and I have no idea what the cues for "This conversation is over," are with children. I understand horse, cat, and adult body language, but children and dogs are a mystery to me!

So, given the choice, I'd opt for a yard where that simply isn't an issue because there aren't going to be any kids around.

I'd certainly never say that all children should be banned from all yards, but I don't think it should be so astonishing that there are yards where children aren't allowed. It's just one of those things to be taken into consideration when choosing a yard, along with turnout, school, hacking, etc.


----------



## ycbm (29 November 2017)

Tiddlypom said:



			Steady on, ycbm, don't lump all of us parents together. There are lots (most) of us who love, look after and cherish our children, and who do not regret having them!
		
Click to expand...

I wrote that post very carefully so that no-one could write this post! I have not lumped all parents together. Nature needs parents to love their children!


----------



## OldieButGoodie (29 November 2017)

I am intentionally childless - mainly because I recognised the pitfalls from a very young age (older sister getting pregnant young etc).

Anyway - my last experience of children being on a yard thankfully was a positive one. This was a private small farm where the yard owner bred chickens and rented out a couple of stables for extra income. Her nieces helped out every weekend and school holiday. These kids were amazing - they all worked really hard and were just brilliant with the animals (and me lol). They really seemed to enjoy the hard work even though they were quite obviously giving up their weekends/holidays just to help their aunt run the farm. It was a magical place as a result.

My experience before that however was horrible but the difference was that these places were big busy riding schools - where some (not all) parents would drop their kids off for the day and run away. It wasn't great because some of the kids were quite simply spoiled brats and their ponies appeared to be treated as 'fashion accessories'.

So now I have my horses at home - where the neighbour's 15 year old horse owning granddaughter is always welcome because she is the most delightful, level headed horsey person I've ever met!


----------



## Rowreach (29 November 2017)

ycbm said:



			The catch 22 on this thread is that those of us who chose not to have children did so because we did not want the responsibly of children, and many of us because we don't want to be around children.  That means that we can completely understand why parents want to bring their children, because we worked out that's what the situation would be if  we had them, and did not want it.

But on the reverse side, most of those who have them seem completely unable to understand why, however well behaved the children may be, the intentionally childless would want adult only yards. Personally, I believe that this is part of nature's defence mechanism. Once you have children, you can't just get rid of them, and mental health depends on maintaining the belief that they are a positive thing. For some parents includes an inability to see why, for many other people, parenting would not have been a positive thing.

I have met two parents in my life who said, and meant it, that they wished they had never had them. They were both very unhappy people..
		
Click to expand...




ycbm said:



			I wrote that post very carefully so that no-one could write this post! I have not lumped all parents together. Nature needs parents to love their children!
		
Click to expand...

Really, did you?

I do try not to respond to your posts but sometimes I can no longer sit on my hands.

You are completely ignoring the fact that some of us (like myself) do have children and yet can see why a "no kids" yard would be appealing.  Just because you don't have/choose not to have children does not automatically mean you detest all children or contact with them.  Equally, having children doesn't mean you automatically love all children or crave their company.

I can completely see why, from a safety aspect, having children (whether closely supervised or not) on a yard may be undesirable.  Equally I can see that some yards are geared up for catering for children.

I see absolutely no reason why having children should mean giving up horses.  I managed to have a couple and run a busy yard at the same time.  I had my me time when I went hunting/competing and got somebody else to look after them, and I had my them time when I took them to pony club.  It would never have occurred to me that it had to be horses OR children.

I am now on a yard completely by myself.  No children and no adults either.  And having read this thread, I'm beginning to think I'd rather have the children than the adults anyway ....

I feel incredibly sorry for any children whose parents wish they'd never had them


----------



## Annagain (29 November 2017)

I avoided reading this for a few days because I knew exactly how this would go but work is quiet this afternoon so I took the plunge and you lot haven't disappointed me. People's intolerance for those who have made different life decisions from them are never more apparent than when kids are involved! I must admit I hate the term breeders (and now non-breeders). I believe it originated in the gay community as a derogatory term for straight people and given gay people are quite rightly offended by derogatory terms aimed at them, deliberately creating a derogatory term themselves is hypocritical to say the least. 

I don't have kids myself but don't dislike them at all. I don't judge anybody for their decision to have them any more than I judge people who think a cup of tea is appropriate with food (actually I judge them less, hot drinks with meals are just plain wrong). My yard was unofficially kid free (it was just way it had worked out) until my friend got a pony for her son. He was 10 at the time (now 11) so not a young kid and is very polite, helpful, unassuming and unobtrusive. Even at 11, he's never left unsupervised and he adores all the horses and treats them with respect. The only thing I worry about for him is that as the only kid on the yard, he's missing out on the fun we used to have but I think that's true for most horsey kids these days - all their riding (and other activities for that matter) seems so organised and supervised. 

One of the other liveries has a 6 month old baby whom she has to bring to the yard sometimes. She tries not to but it's not always possible. I wouldn't dream of making her life more difficult by kicking up a fuss about it and sat with her daughter the other day while she got her horse in as her husband was supposed to be meeting her to take the baby home but had got held up. I would probably have preferred to get the horse, but I think she wanted just the couple of minutes to herself that the walk to the field provided. 

The reality is if we're on a livery yard we're always going to have to put up with things other people do that we don't like. A bit of tolerance and understanding on all sides would make it a much nicer experience for everyone.

Part of the reason I don't have kids is I recognise how bloody hard it can be - especially if you're trying to combine it with something as time consuming as horses - so if I can help a parent out now and again I'm happy to.


----------



## cobgoblin (29 November 2017)

I think it depends on the parents and the children tbh.

I've been on four yards where there were children. In three cases they were the YO's and were no problem at all. The fourth was a Riding school with hoards of children, especially at weekends... Again no problem, they used to groom the horses and run around doing odd jobs. The only time I was a bit concerned was when I turned up one day to find a small child actually UNDER our shire cross's belly brushing him, fortunately he took it in his stride. 

Babies and small toddlers, though, I think are a problem as are badly behaved or rowdy children.


----------



## Clodagh (29 November 2017)

annagain said:



			I avoided reading this for a few days because I knew exactly how this would go but work is quiet this afternoon so I took the plunge and you lot haven't disappointed me. People's intolerance for those who have made different life decisions from them are never more apparent than when kids are involved! I must admit I hate the term breeders (and now non-breeders). I believe it originated in the gay community as a derogatory term for straight people and given gay people are quite rightly offended by derogatory terms aimed at them, deliberately creating a derogatory term themselves is hypocritical to say the least. 

I don't have kids myself but don't dislike them at all. I don't judge anybody for their decision to have them any more than I judge people who think a cup of tea is appropriate with food (actually I judge them less, hot drinks with meals are just plain wrong). My yard was unofficially kid free (it was just way it had worked out) until my friend got a pony for her son. He was 10 at the time (now 11) so not a young kid and is very polite, helpful, unassuming and unobtrusive. Even at 11, he's never left unsupervised and he adores all the horses and treats them with respect. The only thing I worry about for him is that as the only kid on the yard, he's missing out on the fun we used to have but I think that's true for most horsey kids these days - all their riding (and other activities for that matter) seems so organised and supervised. 

One of the other liveries has a 6 month old baby whom she has to bring to the yard sometimes. She tries not to but it's not always possible. I wouldn't dream of making her life more difficult by kicking up a fuss about it and sat with her daughter the other day while she got her horse in as her husband was supposed to be meeting her to take the baby home but had got held up. I would probably have preferred to get the horse, but I think she wanted just the couple of minutes to herself that the walk to the field provided. 

The reality is if we're on a livery yard we're always going to have to put up with things other people do that we don't like. A bit of tolerance and understanding on all sides would make it a much nicer experience for everyone.

Part of the reason I don't have kids is I recognise how bloody hard it can be - especially if you're trying to combine it with something as time consuming as horses - so if I can help a parent out now and again I'm happy to.
		
Click to expand...

Excellent post, and well said. I assume the anti parent bigots are also anti homosexuals, as obviously anyone with different life choices is just unbearable. The anti parent lot went way beyond saying they didn't want children on a yard and were totally vile. I am appalled.


----------



## Abi90 (29 November 2017)

Clodagh said:



			Excellent post, and well said. I assume the anti parent bigots are also anti homosexuals, as obviously anyone with different life choices is just unbearable. The anti parent lot went way beyond saying they didn't want children on a yard and were totally vile. I am appalled.
		
Click to expand...

Well I certainly didn't and there were some equally vile comments from parents such as "anyone who doesn't like children must be a sociopath".

I don't think either party is guilt free here.

And I still maintain that there shouldn't be a problem if people with children go to child friendly yards and those who don't like kids go to child free yards. As long as both yards exist then I really don't see the issue here!


----------



## Clodagh (29 November 2017)

Abi90 said:



			And I still maintain that there shouldn't be a problem if people with children go to child friendly yards and those who don't like kids go to child free yards. As long as both yards exist then I really don't see the issue here!
		
Click to expand...

I agreee with this. I just thought the vitriol was way excessive.


----------



## Abi90 (29 November 2017)

Clodagh said:



			I agreee with this. I just thought the vitriol was way excessive.
		
Click to expand...

I can understand why people get emotional on both sides. On the child free front every time I got to see my husband's family I get told I'm weird, or not natural for not wanting kids. That I have to have them. And then the random cleaner at work telling me it's about time I had a baby ( I'm 27) and it becomes and unwanted intrusion because it's the social norm for people to have kids it is apparently fine to criticise people for not wanting them. Whereas it's not fine to criticise people with children because that is the social norm. Some of the comments were uncalled for but I see where the emotion comes from


----------



## Pippity (29 November 2017)

Abi90 said:



			Well I certainly didn't and there were some equally vile comments from parents such as "anyone who doesn't like children must be a sociopath".

I don't think either party is guilt free here.

And I still maintain that there shouldn't be a problem if people with children go to child friendly yards and those who don't like kids go to child free yards. As long as both yards exist then I really don't see the issue here!
		
Click to expand...

Going around being sensible about these things? That's not the HHO way!


----------



## scats (29 November 2017)

Talking about people's obsession with quizzing women of a certain age when they don't have children.  I am childless and I have no intention of having them, they just aren't my thing.  I adore my close friends little ones, but i don't want my own.

A bloke in work has got me a few times and quizzed me quite intensely about why I don't want children.  One time was in front of a load of people and another on my own. He has a child and I'm about the same age as his wife, so maybe he finds it weird that I don't want them.  Anyway, I answered his questions and didn't think much more of it, then when he left a few of my friends (two who have children and one who doesn't) were absolutely fuming that he questioned me about it and that it was none of his business.  I suppose it wasn't, but it didn't bother me really at the time.

However, thinking back, it was a bit rude of him.  Its bad manners to ask how much a person earns, but apparently it's perfectly normal to ask a woman when she's going to reproduce.  It's a weird world.


----------



## Fiona (29 November 2017)

annagain said:



			I avoided reading this for a few days because I knew exactly how this would go but work is quiet this afternoon so I took the plunge and you lot haven't disappointed me. People's intolerance for those who have made different life decisions from them are never more apparent than when kids are involved! I must admit I hate the term breeders (and now non-breeders). I believe it originated in the gay community as a derogatory term for straight people and given gay people are quite rightly offended by derogatory terms aimed at them, deliberately creating a derogatory term themselves is hypocritical to say the least. 

I don't have kids myself but don't dislike them at all. I don't judge anybody for their decision to have them any more than I judge people who think a cup of tea is appropriate with food (actually I judge them less, hot drinks with meals are just plain wrong). My yard was unofficially kid free (it was just way it had worked out) until my friend got a pony for her son. He was 10 at the time (now 11) so not a young kid and is very polite, helpful, unassuming and unobtrusive. Even at 11, he's never left unsupervised and he adores all the horses and treats them with respect. The only thing I worry about for him is that as the only kid on the yard, he's missing out on the fun we used to have but I think that's true for most horsey kids these days - all their riding (and other activities for that matter) seems so organised and supervised. 

One of the other liveries has a 6 month old baby whom she has to bring to the yard sometimes. She tries not to but it's not always possible. I wouldn't dream of making her life more difficult by kicking up a fuss about it and sat with her daughter the other day while she got her horse in as her husband was supposed to be meeting her to take the baby home but had got held up. I would probably have preferred to get the horse, but I think she wanted just the couple of minutes to herself that the walk to the field provided. 

The reality is if we're on a livery yard we're always going to have to put up with things other people do that we don't like. A bit of tolerance and understanding on all sides would make it a much nicer experience for everyone.

Part of the reason I don't have kids is I recognise how bloody hard it can be - especially if you're trying to combine it with something as time consuming as horses - so if I can help a parent out now and again I'm happy to.
		
Click to expand...

Super post.....

I left having a family until fairly late (39)  so had plenty of time to enjoy my horses and competing while I had no ties. 

By the time I did,   our horses were at home,    so I've never been exposed to anti-children adults or livery yards..

Thankfully...

Fiona


----------



## ycbm (29 November 2017)

Rowreach said:



			Really, did you?

I do try not to respond to your posts but sometimes I can no longer sit on my hands.
		
Click to expand...

Yes. I littered it with conditional words like 'most', 'many' and 'some'  so as to specifically allow for the fact that not all people feel the same way as other people. So I have no idea why you bothered to respond to this one. 




			I feel incredibly sorry for any children whose parents wish they'd never had them 

Click to expand...

Doesn't everyone?


----------



## Doormouse (29 November 2017)

My daughter has been coming to do the horses with me since she was in a pram. Once she started walking we had a rule that she sat on a bucket just outside my stable while I was mucking out, she wasn't allowed scooters or trikes or her bike as she got older unless there were no other horses in the yard. I never had a problem and she certainly never spooked a horse.

That said, I find peoples passion for tying their horses up outside their stable to do everything to the horse very strange, especially when it is cold during the winter or hot and full of flies in the summer.  I muck out, tack up, brush, pull manes etc all with the horse in its stable which seems far easier to me than listening to them trample about bored and cold or hot and bothered by flies.

Horse tied outside their stables are the biggest danger to child obviously but if you have a young child on the yard you should be aware all the time exactly where they are to avoid the danger.


----------



## stormox (29 November 2017)

Doormouse said:



			That said, I find peoples passion for tying their horses up outside their stable to do everything to the horse very strange, especially when it is cold during the winter or hot and full of flies in the summer.  I muck out, tack up, brush, pull manes etc all with the horse in its stable which seems far easier to me than listening to them trample about bored and cold or hot and bothered by flies.

Horse tied outside their stables are the biggest danger to child obviously but if you have a young child on the yard you should be aware all the time exactly where they are to avoid the danger.
		
Click to expand...

I often tie my horse up outside the stable, especially for  grooming. The dust and mud falls outside then and I can sweep up, rather than fall in the stable making it dusty. I also think it is  easier to see in the daylight for plaiting etc and obviously I wash stable stains off outside. I also often leave the horse tied up outside while I muck out if I am doing a big muck out, sweeping under banks etc. Much less dusty for the horse. I think the horses like to be outside rather than being constantly pushed from side to side in a stable.
I certainly wouldnt be happy if I was on a yard where someone said I couldnt tie up outside because of another liveries child. It would be up to the parent to watch the child, it shouldnt  prevent me doing my stable jobs the way I wanted to. After all, we probably would both be paying the same livery charge!


----------



## PapaverFollis (29 November 2017)

Mucking out and grooming in the stable can aggravate respiratory issues FWIW... I also like a bedding free floor when doing foot care... just a couple of reasons to bring a horse out.

On the other hand on yards I've been on with out of control kids I have limited my tieing up outside activities when I thought it was risky. So if a football was being kicked around for example, my horses stayed in stables.


----------



## conniegirl (29 November 2017)

Doormouse said:



			That said, I find peoples passion for tying their horses up outside their stable to do everything to the horse very strange, especially when it is cold during the winter or hot and full of flies in the summer.  I muck out, tack up, brush, pull manes etc all with the horse in its stable which seems far easier to me than listening to them trample about bored and cold or hot and bothered by flies.

.
		
Click to expand...

I on the other hand can&#8217;t understand why you haven&#8217;t taught your horse to stand quietly whilst tied up? Or have discovered the use of rugs for warmth or fly spray to get rid of flys.
It&#8217;s far easier to muck out a stable if the horse isn&#8217;t in it (perticularly if like mine they try and help) also it is not good for the horse to be in the stable when you disturb any dust in the bed, keeping them in whilst doing that results in coughs and vet bills.
when grooming a horse the dust generated is far better off out of the stable rather than settling in your bedding. Plaiting by daylight is much easier than by the one bulb at the front of the stable.
With them tied up outside if something goes wrong you have a lot more room to deal with the situation without getting trapped between the horse and a wall.
Finally if your horse won&#8217;t tie up and stand quietly then how on earth do you tack up at a competition?


----------



## {97702} (30 November 2017)

Ah ha! As I suspected, this thread has proved to be perfect for a mild period of insomnia....


----------



## Farma (30 November 2017)

scats said:



			Talking about people's obsession with quizzing women of a certain age when they don't have children.  I am childless and I have no intention of having them, they just aren't my thing.  I adore my close friends little ones, but i don't want my own.

A bloke in work has got me a few times and quizzed me quite intensely about why I don't want children.  One time was in front of a load of people and another on my own. He has a child and I'm about the same age as his wife, so maybe he finds it weird that I don't want them.  Anyway, I answered his questions and didn't think much more of it, then when he left a few of my friends (two who have children and one who doesn't) were absolutely fuming that he questioned me about it and that it was none of his business.  I suppose it wasn't, but it didn't bother me really at the time.

However, thinking back, it was a bit rude of him.  Its bad manners to ask how much a person earns, but apparently it's perfectly normal to ask a woman when she's going to reproduce.  It's a weird world.
		
Click to expand...

I totally agree, before having a baby I used to get asked so often it was ridiculous, it did seem that if you were in a relationship and of a certain age kids are automatically expected and it seemed that people you barely know to ask you such personal questions about that choice (or in some cases its not a choice). Now I have one I get asked constantly when the next one will be so it doesn't end, then when I say I am happy with one they will say oh you will have another like they know me and my child bearing capability better than I do, so it doesn't end!


----------



## ManBearPig (30 November 2017)

I'm also wondering if more yards not allowing children stems from the discrepancy between the level of service people expect from livery and what people are willing to pay. A lot of yard owners have to cut corners wherever possible to avoid pricing themselves out of the market and, along with the nagging dread of an expensive lawsuit should a child be injured, getting enhanced DBS checks for staff etc are just expenses which eat into already meagre profits.

Edit: Could also be why you've only noticed it after moving to a new area; different prices/market etc?


----------



## Ambers Echo (30 November 2017)

Farma said:



			Yes I am, seems like I struck gold finding it reading some of the replies here.
		
Click to expand...

Probably not... Real Life is generally a little more accepting and easy going than Forum-World!!


----------



## Farma (30 November 2017)

ManBearPig said:



			I'm also wondering if more yards not allowing children stems from the discrepancy between the level of service people expect from livery and what people are willing to pay. A lot of yard owners have to cut corners wherever possible to avoid pricing themselves out of the market and, along with the nagging dread of an expensive lawsuit should a child be injured, getting enhanced DBS checks for staff etc are just expenses which eat into already meagre profits.

Edit: Could also be why you've only noticed it after moving to a new area; different prices/market etc?
		
Click to expand...

That would make sense, except that I have moved from being close to London to a little further out, you would think that being closer to London would mean the opposite possibly? My last yard owner had made her money working in insurance so was super careful about anything litigious and still welcomed children/dogs etc.
I don't know for sure but could definitely see that point of view and I would really like to think that has more to do with it than as some have put it 'having to tolerate my spawn'  Although for some I see that is case.


----------



## ILuvCowparsely (30 November 2017)

Doormouse said:



			That said, I find peoples passion for tying their horses up outside their stable to do everything to the horse very strange, especially when it is cold during the winter or hot and full of flies in the summer.  I muck out, tack up, brush, pull manes etc all with the horse in its stable which seems far easier to me than listening to them trample about bored and cold or hot and bothered by flies.

Horse tied outside their stables are the biggest danger to child obviously but if you have a young child on the yard you should be aware all the time exactly where they are to avoid the danger.
		
Click to expand...

Here they are not allowed to tie up outside and groom etc, unless injury or box rest, this is down to the position of the stables to the house, and if we have the windows open all the dust and hair comes into the house. So they groom in stable or gangway or back yard.

Also I frive into the court yard coming to and from errands and horses tied up would be in the way all the time. as well as in the way of the hay truck and feed merchants coming in


----------



## Farma (30 November 2017)

Ambers Echo said:



			Probably not... Real Life is generally a little more accepting and easy going than Forum-World!!
		
Click to expand...

Haha - Of course and there is a lot to consider around the psychology of anonymous commenting, hence why I wouldn't let anything that anyone has to say upset or affect me personally, I would prefer people not to be rude but that's up to them and only reflects on them, its good to see unfiltered responses some times whether I agree with what they say or not.


----------



## Fragglerock (30 November 2017)

Doormouse said:



			That said, I find peoples passion for tying their horses up outside their stable to do everything to the horse very strange, especially when it is cold during the winter or hot and full of flies in the summer.  I muck out, tack up, brush, pull manes etc all with the horse in its stable which seems far easier to me than listening to them trample about bored and cold or hot and bothered by flies.
		
Click to expand...

I'm one of those strange people, much better not be doing dusty things in a stable for both horse and owner.  And the light is better.  I have an overhang but the only time I groom or do a proper muck out with clean bed with the horse in the stable is if it is pouring with rain and I can't arrange it for another time it's a very rare occurrence though.

Probably not the first time I've been called strange though   This has just reinforced my feeling that if I were to ever lose my own land I don't think I would have another horse if I had to keep it at a livery yard.

I never had children (choice) and had one of my own employees questioning me in front of the rest of our staff on why I never had them (I'm too old to be asked if I want them now).  I should have told him to p**** off but I didn't.  I found it very uncomfortable.  He couldn't understand me, but then he and his wife had eight attempts at IVF before they had twins.


----------



## ester (30 November 2017)

Farma said:



			I totally agree, before having a baby I used to get asked so often it was ridiculous, it did seem that if you were in a relationship and of a certain age kids are automatically expected and it seemed that people you barely know to ask you such personal questions about that choice (or in some cases its not a choice). Now I have one I get asked constantly when the next one will be so it doesn't end, then when I say I am happy with one they will say oh you will have another like they know me and my child bearing capability better than I do, so it doesn't end!
		
Click to expand...

That is interesting as I had wondered if you had moved closer to london as would have presumed the same as you. 

I think to a certain extent what happens is that people remember the bad experiences/poor parenting/near misses etc much more than they do the good/ok ones, and that the bad experiences matter more to them when selecting a yard, if that makes sense? and/or is just a preference for them. 

My own mum has just pre-warned me about the number of children that are going to be in our house on Christmas eve (not relatives) should I want to arrange to be somewhere else because it can be problematic for me. I make an awesome train track though  and do a good job of attempting to get volcanoes to hit the ceiling


----------



## Jill's Gym Karma (30 November 2017)

There are two issues here:

-the safety aspect of children on yards in our sadly litigous age. I'm sure every generation moans about the bad behaviour of youngsters, but I've witnessed some genuinely alarming examples of parents unwilling or unable to enforce any kind of basic awareness of "playground/non-playground" situations. I've seen a child wandering unsupervised around an airport gate getting their hand badly mangled in a revolving door, and also once personally saved a child from near-certain death when they managed to open a door on a fast-moving Tube carriage. 

-the fact that many parents just cannot accept that other adults aren't interested in being around children, or listening to endless fascinating tales about them. Especially women, who still seem to have to justify not having them or wanting them.

I've met several wonderful mature, committed, helpful teenagers through RDA volunteering. I wouldn't choose to spend every evening of the week with them though.


----------



## GemG (30 November 2017)

Farma said:



			I totally agree, before having a baby I used to get asked so often it was ridiculous, it did seem that if you were in a relationship and of a certain age kids are automatically expected and it seemed that people you barely know to ask you such personal questions about that choice (or in some cases its not a choice). Now I have one I get asked constantly when the next one will be so it doesn't end, then when I say I am happy with one they will say oh you will have another like they know me and my child bearing capability better than I do, so it doesn't end!
		
Click to expand...

...it doesn't end childless or with child or children...  I was asked by a midwife in delivery room after having second girl,... oooo so you'll be 'going again' (meaning to try for a boy).. this was less than 3 hours after just having squeezed out baby...   

...er, no.. thanks. 

But I didn't take her comment as an unkind/assumptive one, I think it's general chit, chat and I found it quite funny.

I firmly stopped after two.


----------



## Crugeran Celt (30 November 2017)

Farma said:



			I totally agree, before having a baby I used to get asked so often it was ridiculous, it did seem that if you were in a relationship and of a certain age kids are automatically expected and it seemed that people you barely know to ask you such personal questions about that choice (or in some cases its not a choice). Now I have one I get asked constantly when the next one will be so it doesn't end, then when I say I am happy with one they will say oh you will have another like they know me and my child bearing capability better than I do, so it doesn't end!
		
Click to expand...

I never wanted children, I had two horses, mother and daughter and was completely content with that. Luckiky for me my husband wasn't really interested in having any either. All my family especially my parents completely accepted my decision and never questioned it so when I did tell my Mum that I was pregnant she was not overjoyed as she really thought I would not be the best parent as my horses had always come first above everything else.  I completely adore my son who is now 19 but knew I didn't want any more as with one I could keep my horses as well. I have never been questioned about my decisions by anybody so wonder why others have.


----------



## fburton (8 December 2017)

scats said:



			Talking about people's obsession with quizzing women of a certain age when they don't have children.  I am childless and I have no intention of having them, they just aren't my thing.  I adore my close friends little ones, but i don't want my own.
		
Click to expand...

You might be interested in this talk that appeared in my YouTube feed yesterday...

I don't want children -- stop telling me I'll change my mind | Christen Reighter

https://youtu.be/A_xXC37CDSw

I thought it was rather good.


----------



## Abi90 (8 December 2017)

fburton said:



			You might be interested in this talk that appeared in my YouTube feed yesterday...

I don't want children -- stop telling me I'll change my mind | Christen Reighter

https://youtu.be/A_xXC37CDSw

I thought it was rather good.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for that! I agree. Sums it up perfectly


----------

