# 4yr olds, Am I expecting too muh?



## ellie_e (9 January 2015)

What are your aims/plans with your now 4yr olds? Are any of you hoping to be out competing? What are they currently doing work wise and what are you feeding them?
 Think I may be expecting too much from mine :S


----------



## Meowy Catkin (9 January 2015)

Mine is unbacked, still growing like a weed (is currently downhill again) and pootling about his paddock.

ETA - feedwise he has whatever grass is left, ad lib forage in the hayfeeder and two small feeds of chaff with a good vit and min supplement.

EATA - I always use the 'new posts' button, so hadn't realised that this was a show jumping question. Sorry, I should read things more clearly. Mine is destined to be a riding club/fun horse rather than a 'competition horse'.


----------



## Matafleur (9 January 2015)

Mine is now 5 but last year he was broken in feb/March having been pretty much untouched until the previous Oct. I then took him to a Nick gauntlett schooling weekend at end of April. I'd hoped to do BE 4 yo classes with him but his xc just wasn't ready with the amount of work I thought was appropriate for him. But by May time he was doing a decent prelim test and we did a BYEH class in Aug. They are all different but I prefer breaking them a bit later and find they usually catch up.


----------



## ellie_e (9 January 2015)

Matafleur said:



			Mine is now 5 but last year he was broken in feb/March having been pretty much untouched until the previous Oct. I then took him to a Nick gauntlett schooling weekend at end of April. I'd hoped to do BE 4 yo classes with him but his xc just wasn't ready with the amount of work I thought was appropriate for him. But by May time he was doing a decent prelim test and we did a BYEH class in Aug. They are all different but I prefer breaking them a bit later and find they usually catch up.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks! Maybe i'm not then! She will be 4 in March, bought her untouched from a field in Novemeber and broke her in, shes since had 2 weeks off and been hacking out, lunging, and a local in hand show. I did pop her over a Xpole this week but not really doing any ridden work in canter, our school is pretty small and she finds it difficult but hoping to get her to some local BS classes in March they have the club stuff so 70cm up which was the aim, then 4yr old classes in the summer.


----------



## Nightmare before Christmas (9 January 2015)

Mines now 5 and did nothing in his 4 year really. If he was rising 4 now I would expect him to start some BN over the next few months. Some disco late summer and be ready for the 4 year old classes the end of the summer and scope sept time


----------



## muddy_grey (9 January 2015)

Mine is very similar to yours.  I got her in November unbroken.  She is now undersaddle and hacking in all paces.  Schools maybe once per week for 15 mins mostly W&T as school is laso tiny, but a couple of short canters (unless there is another horse there then we barely move!) Plan will be as NBC has listed, but she is very nervous of other horses, so will have to see if this improves before I considering a warm up arena.  I have never know a horse so scared of others.  Will hack alone and go past anything I ask, but hack with company and she crawls along and won't go within 10ft of the other horse.  Currently hacking with only 1 horse from the field next door fingers crossed it will help.
Feed wise Alfa-a, micronised barley, SB, balancer and linseed but not much of each and as much hay as she can eat.


----------



## ellie_e (9 January 2015)

Thanks muddy grey and NBC I guess I'm on the right track, this is my first real youngster so have been unsure what to expect from her.  I've booked her onto a load of different clinics ranging from flat, pole work and some jumping in late feb. Hopefully will be ready for March. Have you guys planned any time off with yours?


----------



## georgiegirl (9 January 2015)

Mine just did general schooling, popping and hacking as a 4yo. As a 5yo I did do a couple of byeh classes which were on the back of going to one dressage test and popping round 2 british novices. First time Ive done those with a youngster and a few people thought we were a bit mad not having jumped the height required but due to my horses good attitude it was a calculated risk and all worked out well. I only went to two (one was very high profile) and then backed it off again for the rest of the season to 80-90cm and had our first xc school in the september of being 5yo. I think you know when you get a good one who is game to have a go and its so very tempting to push and carry on. I only really did the byeh classes because it was always something I wanted to do. Im so very proud of her that she did them but at the same time Im glad I backed off straightway afterwards and had things back in our fun zone rather than constantly pushing it.


----------



## Tnavas (10 January 2015)

If you plan to keep it sound for many, many years then spend the next year pottering around and definitely not jumping it more than a few trotting poles and a grid every so often.

Hocks have not yet fused and jumping puts a great strain on them as does lateral work. Stick to forward, rhythm and acceptance of the bit until at least 5


----------



## seejay (10 January 2015)

Tnavas said:



			If you plan to keep it sound for many, many years then spend the next year pottering around and definitely not jumping it more than a few trottinHock es and a grid every so often.

Hocks have not yet fused and jumping puts a great strain on them as does lateral work. Stick to forward, rhythm and acceptance of the bit until at least 5
		
Click to expand...

Hock growth plates are closed at four.


----------



## Tnavas (10 January 2015)

seejay said:



			Hock growth plates are closed at four.
		
Click to expand...

NO they are not, they finish fusing at 7 along with spine and neck


----------



## seejay (10 January 2015)

Tnavas said:



			NO they are not, they finish fusing at 7 along with spine and neck
		
Click to expand...

I can't find a single scientific study that supports your point of view. Everything I can find, and there are many, says that the hocks are closed by four years old and most of them say well before. Can you point me to where you got your information from please?


----------



## nianya (10 January 2015)

This study (cites a bunch of others across breeds) shows that the growth plates in most breeds are closed by about 4 years old.  Including in the hips and spine.  

http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1751-0147-49-19.pdf


----------



## Tnavas (10 January 2015)

This is one of the most famous studies on bone maturity and used by vets world wide

http://www.equinestudies.org/ranger_2008/ranger_piece_2008_pdf1.pdf


----------



## seejay (10 January 2015)

Tnavas said:



			This is one of the most famous studies on bone maturity and used by vets world wide

http://www.equinestudies.org/ranger_2008/ranger_piece_2008_pdf1.pdf

Click to expand...

Yes, thank you, I  had already seen that one. It says that everything is sealed by four except the vertebrae and the pelvis. Do you still say that the hocks are not sealed until seven?


----------



## JFTDWS (10 January 2015)

seejay said:



			Yes, thank you, I  had already seen that one. It says that everything is sealed by four except the vertebrae and the pelvis. Do you still say that the hocks are not sealed until seven?
		
Click to expand...





			Hock &#8211; this joint is &#8220;late&#8221; for as low down as it is; growth plates on the tibial and fibular tarsals don&#8217;t fuse until the animal is 3-3.5 (so the hocks are a known &#8220;weak point&#8221; &#8211;even the 18th-century literature warns against driving young horses in plow or other deep or sticky footing, or jumping them up into a heavy load, for danger of spraining their hocks).
		
Click to expand...

Have you read your own link, Tnavas?


----------



## gunnergundog (10 January 2015)

nianya said:



			This study (cites a bunch of others across breeds) shows that the growth plates in most breeds are closed by about 4 years old.  Including in the hips and spine.  

http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1751-0147-49-19.pdf

Click to expand...

Sorry, but in my opinion that is not a SCIENTIFIC paper....it is based on quotes /research from the 40's and 60's.    EVEN allowing for the above, that it is based on outmoded research, it still says that the extreme majority of joints are fused by 4.


----------



## gunnergundog (10 January 2015)

nianya said:



			This study (cites a bunch of others across breeds) shows that the growth plates in most breeds are closed by about 4 years old.  Including in the hips and spine.  

http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1751-0147-49-19.pdf

Click to expand...

THIS in my opinion is more what a scientific paper should look like.


----------



## JFTDWS (10 January 2015)

Gunnergundog, you've quoted the same post twice 

I presume your first post should refer to Tnavas's opinion-heavy editorial-type article?  I do love a nice paper with decent M&Ms and actual results reported in a nice, scientific manner too...


----------



## gunnergundog (10 January 2015)

JustFindingTheDecorations said:



			Gunnergundog, you've quoted the same post twice 

I presume your first post should refer to Tnavas's opinion-heavy editorial-type article?  I do love a nice paper with decent M&Ms and actual results reported in a nice, scientific manner too...
		
Click to expand...

Derrr....too much haste.....got it in one...thanks for the translation of my intent!    Yes, my rather derogatory comments in my first post should have applied to this:  http://www.equinestudies.org/ranger_..._2008_pdf1.pdf


----------



## JFTDWS (10 January 2015)

gunnergundog said:



			Derrr....too much haste.....got it in one...thanks for the translation of my intent!  

Click to expand...

Here to help


----------



## gunnergundog (10 January 2015)

JustFindingTheDecorations said:



			Here to help 

Click to expand...

Thanks!  Keep an eye open as am off to open a bottle of wine, so things will only go downhill from here on in!


----------



## Tnavas (10 January 2015)

JustFindingTheDecorations said:



			Have you read your own link, Tnavas?
		
Click to expand...

Yes I did and can't understand where I got the information as to the later time for hocks. Did you read the whole article - maybe I picked up something from there.

Still don't agree with jumping young horses in competition - especially the young horse series, you see many doing well at 4 & 5 and then they vanish from the jumping scene or end up - like my friend horse - in the paddock recovering from strain damage to the hocks - horse will never be jumping again.

Far more sensible to wait an extra year for the horse to mature structurally.


----------



## JFTDWS (10 January 2015)

Tnavas said:



			Yes I did and can't understand where I got the information as to the later time for hocks. Did you read the whole article - maybe I picked up something from there.
		
Click to expand...

Yea that must be it.  The author must've contradicted herself in her own article.  That's far more likely than you mis-remembering or misunderstanding it


----------



## Springvayu (10 January 2015)

Mine will be 4 in June. I bred him and lightly broke him last summer. He was quite sharp, so we worked him for half an hour every day, mostly walking and some trot, with a little canter. He's by Jumbo, so he's going to be quite well built. He's been growing in the field, turned out from September. I'm not going to touch him again until his withers catch up with his quarters!! Hopefully in March, then just some light work. Nothing major this year though. He's a keeper, so I'm in no rush!!


----------



## Mike007 (10 January 2015)

I dont think it is entirely relevant when the growth plates fuse. Once the skeletal system has achieved this state , the growth of muscle and by implication ,the load on the skeletal structure increases massively. The skeletal structure is ,throughout the life of the animal, subject to constant rebuilding in response to the loads applied to it. My strong suspicion and educated guess (because as with so many things ,no one has done the research) is that the actual time of growth plate fusion is irrelevant. What is relevant is the age at which the animal has reached a minimum level in bone resorbtion and reconstruction.


----------



## Tnavas (10 January 2015)

Mike007 said:



			I dont think it is entirely relevant when the growth plates fuse. Once the skeletal system has achieved this state , the growth of muscle and by implication ,the load on the skeletal structure increases massively. The skeletal structure is ,throughout the life of the animal, subject to constant rebuilding in response to the loads applied to it. My strong suspicion and educated guess (because as with so many things ,no one has done the research) is that the actual time of growth plate fusion is irrelevant. What is relevant is the age at which the animal has reached a minimum level in bone resorbtion and reconstruction.
		
Click to expand...

Having a guide as to when areas complete their growth is important though. As you point out bones change to accommodate the work load, therefore working a horse before the plates have matured may mean that bone is adversely remodeled.

The Spanish Riding School horses are not broken in until they are 5-6 years old when all their bones have fully matured. Maybe this is why their horses work so well into a grand age.


----------



## Kokopelli (10 January 2015)

I'm riding a pony that's aiming for byrds and hopefully fei with the right rider. She's working forward into a nice relaxed contact in w/t/c on both reins. We do 1 or 2 sessions of groundwork 1 or 2 sessions in the arena and the rest hacking. She's popped a couple of fences but won't jump too often.

She's going to be a super pony for someone, I wish I could warrant having another.


----------



## Mike007 (10 January 2015)

Tnavas said:



			Having a guide as to when areas complete their growth is important though. As you point out bones change to accommodate the work load, therefore working a horse before the plates have matured may mean that bone is adversely remodeled.

The Spanish Riding School horses are not broken in until they are 5-6 years old when all their bones have fully matured. Maybe this is why their horses work so well into a grand age.
		
Click to expand...

I entirely agree. In fact this was rather my point though badly expressed. I was trying to get across that even at growth plate fusion,there is still so much happening developmentwise that things still need to be kept at a gentle level until subsequently the rate of resorbtion and formation falls to a minimum.


----------



## JFTDWS (10 January 2015)

Bone remodelling fluctuates depending on stress regardless of age.  If you want to work a horse, the remodelling will occur when you start working it, and putting stress on the bones, even if it's physically mature.  Remodelling is a very good thing - it's not something to avoid.


----------



## JFTDWS (10 January 2015)

Whilst exercise should be moderated while horses are developmentally immature, some controlled exercise is generally considered to be desirable.  

To quote from an interview with Ian Cameron at Rossdales, which I have via a prominent veterinary science journalist and editor:

" Horses evolved to roam vast distances in search of food and water, and whilst the modern thoroughbred is far removed from a wild horse, they are still designed to respond favourably to early conditioning of the internal structures of the limbs.
The introduction of regular controlled exercise at an early age seems to have a positive effect on long term soundness, with horses that have been through sales preparation, training and racing, often proving to be more physically robust than those who spent their early years in the field"

I can provide the provenance for the quotation if necessary.  Alas, I don't have a decent study to back this up, it is purely an expert opinion (and I am presenting it as that, and nothing more).


----------



## Auslander (10 January 2015)

Tnavas said:



			The Spanish Riding School horses are not broken in until they are 5-6 years old when all their bones have fully matured. Maybe this is why their horses work so well into a grand age.
		
Click to expand...

That's not quite correct, I'm afraid. They are broken at 4, but are not introduced to any of the High School movements until they are 6. To be physically capable of even starting these movements, they need to be exceptionally fit, and schooling at a very advanced level before the age of 6 - so they probably work harder than most at a relatively early age.


----------



## Mike007 (10 January 2015)

JustFindingTheDecorations said:



			Bone remodelling fluctuates depending on stress regardless of age.  If you want to work a horse, the remodelling will occur when you start working it, and putting stress on the bones, even if it's physically mature.  Remodelling is a very good thing - it's not something to avoid.
		
Click to expand...

Indeed ,but it is at a maximum during the growth stage and for a while after.And as you rightly point out ,it occurs even in mature animals as a response to work. My point is that to push a horse during a period when the skeletal system is already under pressure is a mistake.


----------



## JFTDWS (10 January 2015)

Mike007 said:



			Indeed ,but it is at a maximum during the growth stage and for a while after.And as you rightly point out ,it occurs even in mature animals as a response to work. My point is that to push a horse during a period when the skeletal system is already under pressure is a mistake.
		
Click to expand...

That makes sense - although I would say that "pushing" a horse is the interesting point.  A degree of stress on the bones may enhance the desired remodelling (an absence of stress would certainly be detrimental to the normal developmental remodelling).  Excessive stress would certainly be detrimental (and risk GP fractures if unclosed at that stage).  It's the line between "good" stress and detrimental stress which is hard to draw.  Leaving a horse in a postage stamp field until fully mature is unlikely to be optimal, while trying to take a 4 year old round Badders would be similarly unwise.


----------



## Mike007 (10 January 2015)

JustFindingTheDecorations said:



			That makes sense - although I would say that "pushing" a horse is the interesting point.  A degree of stress on the bones may enhance the desired remodelling (an absence of stress would certainly be detrimental to the normal developmental remodelling).  Excessive stress would certainly be detrimental (and risk GP fractures if unclosed at that stage).  It's the line between "good" stress and detrimental stress which is hard to draw.  Leaving a horse in a postage stamp field until fully mature is unlikely to be optimal, while trying to take a 4 year old round Badders would be similarly unwise.
		
Click to expand...

And that is why some people are such great trainers ,there is no clear scientific answer for us here . It is experience and observation and having the flexebility to change your plans that puts a chosen few at the top.


----------



## nianya (10 January 2015)

I perhaps should've commented that despite when growth plates fuse, I don't think any horse should be worked hard before 4.  I don't think their bodies are ready for demanding workloads and I don't think their minds are either usually.  I've seen a lot of horses who were "champions" at 4 be too broken down to ride by 7.  I've seen it quite a bit with competition reiners and ropers with QH's.  Trainers start them and 2, compete at 3 and retire at 6 because they end up lame.


----------



## JFTDWS (10 January 2015)

Mike007 said:



			And that is why some people are such great trainers ,there is no clear scientific answer for us here . It is experience and observation and having the flexebility to change your plans that puts a chosen few at the top.
		
Click to expand...

Yet   Who knows what science will tell us in future!


----------



## Mike007 (10 January 2015)

JustFindingTheDecorations said:



			Yet   Who knows what science will tell us in future!
		
Click to expand...

Indeed! yet I suspect science will meerly explain the accurate observations of generations of old horsemen and vets .


----------



## MyDogIsAnIdiot (10 January 2015)

Auslander said:



			That's not quite correct, I'm afraid. They are broken at 4, but are not introduced to any of the High School movements until they are 6. To be physically capable of even starting these movements, they need to be exceptionally fit, and schooling at a very advanced level before the age of 6 - so they probably work harder than most at a relatively early age.
		
Click to expand...

To agree with your point re:schooling. The horses at the SRS are lunged in side reins (starting loose and getting gradually shorter) for at least 3 months before they're even sat on. They then work 5-6 days a week schooling, though the focus is initially on going 'large' around the school and less on circles. Alois Podhajsky's book 'Complete Training of the Horse and Rider' goes into great detail when describing how the SRS horses are trained and broken, it's a very interesting read.

(Though is several decades old now so the workload may have changed in recent years).


----------



## Mike007 (10 January 2015)

MyDogIsAnIdiot said:



			. Alois Podhajsky's book 'Complete Training of the Horse and Rider' goes into great detail when describing how the SRS horses are trained and broken, it's a very interesting read.

(Though is several decades old now so the workload may have changed in recent years).
		
Click to expand...

Mike quietly rummages through the paperwork on his desk to find "the complete training of horse and rider " (and for those that want to know ,or dont believe me its ISBN  0-948253-51-7)


----------



## MyDogIsAnIdiot (10 January 2015)

Mike007 said:



			Mike quietly rummages through the paperwork on his desk to find "the complete training of horse and rider " (and for those that want to know ,or dont believe me its ISBN  0-948253-51-7)
		
Click to expand...

Haha, I imagine your desk looks like mine! I'd recommend 'Reflections on Equestrian Art' by Nuno Oliveria if you're that way inclined .

Edit: Found the exact text, bottom of page 83, onto page 84.
'The duration of training on the longe must depend on the conformation of the horse. Experience has shown that the longer the period of training on the longe, the greater will be the trainer's influence on the horse. The Lipizzaner stallions are longed for two or three months before work under the saddle begins'.


----------



## Mike007 (10 January 2015)

MyDogIsAnIdiot said:



			Haha, I imagine your desk looks like mine! I'd recommend 'Reflections on Equestrian Art' by Nuno Oliveria if you're that way inclined .
		
Click to expand...

Must look that one up ,thanks. I suspect that only in the worst horror movies could your desk look exactly like mine. .........Mike shuffles feinwerkbau target pistol back into its case,sweeps sundry vitamin and painkillers into the drawer. Hurls half a red Chillie that he has been nibbling into the bin, ............yes i,m normal ,see your desk is just like mine...........


----------



## Tnavas (10 January 2015)

JustFindingTheDecorations said:



			Bone remodelling fluctuates depending on stress regardless of age.  If you want to work a horse, the remodelling will occur when you start working it, and putting stress on the bones, even if it's physically mature.  Remodelling is a very good thing - it's not something to avoid.
		
Click to expand...

It is a good thing IF t remodels to maintain soundness - however it it remodels in the wrong area it can cause ongoing problems. 

Eg Spavins, Sidebone, Ringbone, Splints - all remodelling that may cause problems


----------



## Mike007 (10 January 2015)

Tnavas said:



			It is a good thing IF t remodels to maintain soundness - however it it remodels in the wrong area it can cause ongoing problems. 

Eg Spavins, Sidebone, Ringbone, Splints - all remodelling that may cause problems
		
Click to expand...

Hell, I just wrote pages about some work I did 40 years ago regarding vitamin D3 overdose in horses and splint/spavin formation. I even mentioned the largest clinical trial ever conducted with horses .By the Austro hungarian army. (This of course never happened because you cant find it on google and only sad souls like me have read the original work) But needless to say ,the good old hho site lust lost it all.


----------



## Tnavas (10 January 2015)

Auslander said:



			That's not quite correct, I'm afraid. They are broken at 4, but are not introduced to any of the High School movements until they are 6. To be physically capable of even starting these movements, they need to be exceptionally fit, and schooling at a very advanced level before the age of 6 - so they probably work harder than most at a relatively early age.
		
Click to expand...

Just had a read of my book and you are right - somehow I had missed memorising that point - though it then goes on to mention that they don't become mature until into their 7th year.

Interesting that I was always taught that lateral work not be taught until around that age - though I did spend some time training with Robert Hall who was Spanish Riding School trained, also the others I trained with were also very classical in their approach to training of a young horse.

At 4 we worked at Prelim level, at 5 Novice level and then on to early Elementary level at 6 with lateral work starting late 6. I still tend to do this.

At one time I had one of my young Pony Club students get on my TB who had only ever been schooled to go forward, to bend correctly and to move off the leg forward and only away enough to leg yield.

The next thing I see is my horse working through all the lateral movements with ease and the rider going "wow", "wow" as he went past.

His comments that he had never before ridden a horse so supple - that went on the bit from the leg and moved around so easily. He had not been taught any of the lateral movements but the suppleness and obedience was there and could progress with no problem.

I often think that resistances and problems originate because people are so impatient - they want the results so early. Waiting and taking time may be boring but it reaps rewards in the long run. 

This young rider went on to pass A & H at 18 with honours.


----------



## JFTDWS (11 January 2015)

Tnavas said:



			It is a good thing IF t remodels to maintain soundness - however it it remodels in the wrong area it can cause ongoing problems. 

Eg Spavins, Sidebone, Ringbone, Splints - all remodelling that may cause problems
		
Click to expand...

Well yes, but you can't pick and choose - the majority of remodelling is good - and good remodelling is essential for correct development and long term soundness.  Whilst it can go wrong (as can everything) it's no reason to seek to avoid the principle itself.  Optimal remodelling is dependent on a degree of stress on the bone.  As I said upthread, this isn't an excuse to rush a horse to GP or take it around a 4* at 4, but the extreme alternative is potentially as detrimental.


----------



## Tnavas (11 January 2015)

JustFindingTheDecorations said:



			Well yes, but you can't pick and choose - the majority of remodelling is good - and good remodelling is essential for correct development and long term soundness.  Whilst it can go wrong (as can everything) it's no reason to seek to avoid the principle itself.  Optimal remodelling is dependent on a degree of stress on the bone.  As I said upthread, this isn't an excuse to rush a horse to GP or take it around a 4* at 4, but the extreme alternative is potentially as detrimental.
		
Click to expand...

And thats the thing - you can't pick and chose how the remodelling goes so you make sure you wait until the horse has a mature bone structure before you put stress on it.

If you break in early and are prepared to just walk then fine - wild horse generally walk everywhere they rarely go faster!


----------



## ester (11 January 2015)

Though you then risk that that bone structure has developed without sufficient stress on it to maintain soundness when it is asked to do work?! Which is surely the issue discussed?


----------



## Tnavas (11 January 2015)

ester said:



			Though you then risk that that bone structure has developed without sufficient stress on it to maintain soundness when it is asked to do work?! Which is surely the issue discussed?
		
Click to expand...

Of course it doesn't! If the horse has had quality nutrition, has been turned out or out for the first three/four years of its life its bones will have grown as they were supposed to grow. Then during the breaking in process if done sensibly the bones are then stressed and may be remodelled if conformation is poor and action not straight.

Remember that bones will only change their shape if there are stresses placed upon them - otherwise if the horses conformation and action don't put any more stress on the bones than that required to move around then there may be no change.

None of mine have ever been broken in before they have turned four. My current ones have not had a lame day in their lives! Barring a couple of abscesses. My mare is 11 and never yet been lame - and she wasn't broken until 6 years old.


----------



## ester (11 January 2015)

Ok... If you say so.....  Think I'll just stick to what I know I know, from a scientific viewpoint rather than just all my horses have been fine so I definitely know. If you are breaking at 4 bones aren't fused so ...


----------



## JFTDWS (11 January 2015)

Tnavas said:



			And thats the thing - you can't pick and chose how the remodelling goes so you make sure you wait until the horse has a mature bone structure before you put stress on it.

If you break in early and are prepared to just walk then fine - wild horse generally walk everywhere they rarely go faster!
		
Click to expand...

"before you put stress on it".  #Facepalm.  So did you read the bits about how putting stress on bone is ESSENTIAL for CORRECT development, or are you just choosing to ignore that?

You're welcome to believe whatever you choose.  But trying to cherry pick scientific knowledge to support your argument, or referencing papers which state the opposite and claiming otherwise, is really bad form.


----------



## Meowy Catkin (11 January 2015)

JFTD - a question.  I had always thought that the 'Ranger' article was good for owners (like me) who don't work in the scientific field as it's not as 'dry' to read (sorry if that makes you cringe, but I can't think of a better way of phrasing it). So really my question is, is the information in it outdated now?


----------



## JFTDWS (11 January 2015)

Faracat said:



			JFTD - a question.  I had always thought that the 'Ranger' article was good for owners (like me) who don't work in the scientific field as it's not as 'dry' to read (sorry if that makes you cringe, but I can't think of a better way of phrasing it). So really my question is, is the information in it outdated now?
		
Click to expand...

No I know exactly what you mean.  I wouldn't expect the average horse owner to read and comprehend original research papers (I don't always fully understand the nuances in the methods myself as it's not my field!) and the Ranger article does explain some aspects nicely.  Some of the research on which it is based is outdated, but in the absence of a better equivalent, it's probably still the most accessible of its type.  However, I would suggest that owners read it with those caveats in mind, and accept that there may have been developments in specific areas.  It's far from useless - and much of the article is broadly true as far as we're aware at present, but it's not really evidence to support an argument, when compared to other more recent academic papers with actual supporting data.  Does that help in any way?


----------



## Meowy Catkin (11 January 2015)

It does. Thanks.


----------



## ester (11 January 2015)

JustFindingTheDecorations said:



			"before you put stress on it".  #Facepalm.  So did you read the bits about how putting stress on bone is ESSENTIAL for CORRECT development, or are you just choosing to ignore that?

You're welcome to believe whatever you choose.  But trying to cherry pick scientific knowledge to support your argument, or referencing papers which state the opposite and claiming otherwise, is really bad form.
		
Click to expand...

Quite you can believe whatever you want to, from experience, the pony club manual circa 1975, or from imbibing incorrect information from people who have actually done the science or schooled young horses to do high intensity work. It doesn't mean that you are correct though or that you can expect anyone else to agree with you!

I think such articles are great for owners faracat, if like Jftd says they remember they may well be subject to the writers opinion not just the facts


----------



## Tnavas (11 January 2015)

F



JustFindingTheDecorations said:



			"before you put stress on it".  #Facepalm.  So did you read the bits about how putting stress on bone is ESSENTIAL for CORRECT development, or are you just choosing to ignore that?

You're welcome to believe whatever you choose.  But trying to cherry pick scientific knowledge to support your argument, or referencing papers which state the opposite and claiming otherwise, is really bad form.
		
Click to expand...

Stress does not need to be EXCESSIVE stress, a young horse out in his paddock will stress his bones every day by playing around, bucking, leaping, rearing and galloping around. You don't have to deliberately damage his bones by working them too.

I've seen enough damage to young bones over the years to last a lifetime.


----------



## seejay (11 January 2015)

tnavas said:
			
		


			Barring a couple of abscesses. My mare is 11 and never yet been lame - and she wasn't broken until 6 years old.
		
Click to expand...

There are plenty of people who own eleven year old ex race horses who were broken at eighteen months raced at two and are never lame. And thousands who own ordinary riding horses broken at three or four who are eleven or more and never lame.

I have ridden a horse broken as a six year old which had been left to mature in a field by the breeder. The horse was desperately one sided, to the point of appearing almost lame, and in my view would have been a lot better if worked to improve his straighteness at a much earlier age. He also threw a splint at eight, which made him hopping lame.


----------



## ester (11 January 2015)

Tnavas said:



			F

Stress does not need to be EXCESSIVE stress, a young horse out in his paddock will stress his bones every day by playing around, bucking, leaping, rearing and galloping around. You don't have to deliberately damage his bones by working them too.

I've seen enough damage to young bones over the years to last a lifetime.
		
Click to expand...

Again that is what you think/your opinion it is entirely possible (I draw your attention back to the rossdale's vet comment) that isn't sufficient and that the horse's physiology does not agree with your ideas of EXCESSIVE- not sure why the capitals!


----------



## JFTDWS (11 January 2015)

Tnavas said:



			F

Stress does not need to be EXCESSIVE stress, a young horse out in his paddock will stress his bones every day by playing around, bucking, leaping, rearing and galloping around. You don't have to deliberately damage his bones by working them too.

I've seen enough damage to young bones over the years to last a lifetime.
		
Click to expand...

F?

No, stress does not need to be EXCESSIVE.  However, your assumption that a young horse will get OPTIMAL stress from being plonked in a paddock and ignored is just that - an assumption, your opinion, and an opinion which is not shared by everyone, many of whom are in a better position to judge.


----------



## Cortez (11 January 2015)

I'm not a scientist, although I have read a number of the cited papers, but I have been a breeder and have broken many, many horses over a 35 year professional life with horses. In my experience, and in consultation with other professional trainers of young horses, horses which are broken late (after 4 years) have been more likely to have physical and psychological problems with the whole riding idea, and the later they are broken the more pronounced the problems. Of course there are many horses which are perfectly fine no matter what age they are, but IME 3 years of age is the optimal time to begin the breaking process, 4 is the time for consolidation and 5+ is when the horse properly goes to work. Experience and judgement is the key to progressing horses, and fluttering around not doing stuff is not going to produce horses capable of doing a useful job.


----------



## tristar (11 January 2015)

sorry to say the following if anyone disagrees, but this is my experience, personally,I would not break any horse under 4 years, I've just done one at 5 plus years, it is a joy to work with a horse who is mentally and physically capable of learning everything first time, who wants to be ridden can balance naturally because he is maturing, I also think that suppleness is  largely a process of training and correct riding combined with fitness,ie.  a fat unfit blob is not going to move in a way that enhances suppleness, and believe that riding out is an vital ingredient in the early training.

the horse in question moved around plenty as a youth due to being out most of the time taking frequent sharp gallops at liberty, I always feed oats to babies to ensure they have energy to move about plenty.

to be honest looking back the best horses I had were the ones that didn't work hard or compete until 6  7  8 years they could  take the work and stayed sound all their lives.

to put a young tb into training is not done for the benefit of the horse's bones

if a horse is right mentally and physically he is made to function what ever his age of training, always assuming he has the luck to meet the right rider.


----------



## Nightmare before Christmas (11 January 2015)

I know many a horse who was successful as a 4 and 5 in the ring go onto to a long career. They normally break when older due to the level they are currently jumping rather than the level they jumped as a young horse..


----------



## Tnavas (12 January 2015)

JustFindingTheDecorations said:



			F?

No, stress does not need to be EXCESSIVE.  However, your assumption that a young horse will get OPTIMAL stress from being plonked in a paddock and ignored is just that - an assumption, your opinion, and an opinion which is not shared by everyone, many of whom are in a better position to judge.
		
Click to expand...

Really! How rude! So what makes you think you know any better than me?

I've worked with horse for the past 40 years both competition horses (international/Olympic level) and also racehorses gallopers and harness horses. The ones that have always broken down have been the racehorses.

I've worked in yards where we have had over 100 horses in training - from yearlings to older steeplechasers. Some of the yearlings have been so overworked to prepare them for the sales that they already have splints, mental problems and back issues. Magic was four, when her cannon bone shattered - so much for remodelling! One hunter I worked with an ex racehorse developed sore shins and a spiral fracture - dead at 6 years old.

There have been those that have broken legs at home while cantering around the training track. I've seen them with joint mice, hip problems, my own came back from the trainer with a ruptured hip joint. 

Another of mine broke her femur as a result of being roped as a youngster. It damaged the growth plate. She reared up in protest one day,sat down and there was a tiny click and the femur was broken at the growth plate.

Many break down before they even make it to the track - all have been worked since they were around 18 months - the first three months from being broken was good sound walking but it doesn't always mean that their skeletal system will cope with the work of a racehorse or competition horse.

The majority of my own horses, either bred myself or bought as yearlings and not broken in until 4 have all been 100% sound and stayed so. One of mine was exported to the UK and progressed to a two* eventer. Another is in Germany, the ones I have hear in NZ are all competing 100% sound and they certainly aren't dumped in the paddock and ignored.

Youngsters turned out together will play and hoon around at least twice a day, dawn & dusk and stress their frame quite nicely. If you consider that for centuries horses have been allowed to grow turned out, and then brought in for breaking in their fourth year successfully.

If you want to wear your horse out before its time that up to you, but I know from 4 decades of experience that they do fine left until rising four.

You only have to read the many posts about lame horses on this site to be very aware that horses are not as sound as they used to be.


----------



## ester (12 January 2015)

As I said earlier

experience/pony club manual/own opinon doesn't make you right either! I imagine there are plenty of other reasons for TBs breaking more often- breeding for going fast doesn't necessarily mean soundness is included with that .

I think it's pretty obvious that you didn't used to hear about unsound horses so much in the past as they were turned away or shot... 

So far on this thread Tnavas you have claimed two things as absolute fact when questioned which have later been proved to be irrefutably wrong so I might take the rest with a pinch of salt.


----------



## JFTDWS (12 January 2015)

Tnavas, I'm not talking about your little anecdotes - I really couldn't care less if you'd jumped around Badminton on a mule.  I'm talking about how people present scientific fact, opinion and research.  You've repeatedly made false claims on this thread about the science.  I am qualified to judge here - as is Ester, Auslander and a good many others on this forum.  

This is not about how you, or I, would train a young horse - once again, I couldn't care less what you do, or how many sound/broken/purple horses you've known - that is not the issue being questioned here.  This is about the scientific evidence available at present and if you make claims which are not supported by the data in your own links, I will call you on it.


----------



## Auslander (12 January 2015)

Tnavas said:



			So what makes you think you know any better than me?
		
Click to expand...

The title "Doctor" - combined with years of study at the Royal Veterinary College would probably suffice...


----------



## JFTDWS (12 January 2015)

Auslander said:



			The title "Doctor" - combined with years of study at the Royal Veterinary College would probably suffice...
		
Click to expand...

Well there is that...  But I'm far too British to mention it!


----------



## ester (12 January 2015)

JustFindingTheDecorations said:



			Well there is that...  But I'm far too British to mention it!
		
Click to expand...

Ah yes of course

Dr. Ester 

 lol


----------



## JFTDWS (12 January 2015)

ester said:



			Ah yes of course

Dr. Ester 

 lol
		
Click to expand...

We could ask admin to change our names, just in case anyone misses how big and important we are?


----------



## ljohnsonsj (12 January 2015)

OP, i have a rising 4yo the same as you. Mine is 4 in June. She's KWPN and currently standing at around 16.2. I bought her last march from the field and did bits of handling with her. Sat on her around early Nov time and she has had until the last few weeks off. She has now come back into work a much stronger horse- I have started lightly riding in walk and trot from last week and on weekends she will be going on some hacks. I am aiming for 4yo classes later in the year. She is a very level headed horse whom I don't think will be too bothered by busy show atmospheres. I will start fittening her up from here on, and getting some schooling in place, then start popping some poles and fences around march-april. She is a quick learner with a good head on her,as i think many young horses are. I will start taking her jumping at the beginning of summer and aim for some 4yo classes towards september time, so she can jump at Arena UKs festival at the end of september (hopefully). I don't see any of this as strenuous work for a 4yo when she will only be ridden 2-3 times a week, and not 'hammered' at that. I think people over estimate 4yo classes. They are not technical, nor are they a rat race. For the average WB that tends to jump these 1m classes, for a steady DC they are not really that big of an ask. I know of many horses that have jumped from 4year olds, up through the age classes and the ranks without any health problems at all, and are still enjoying jumping at high level into their teens


----------



## ellie_e (12 January 2015)

ljohnsonsj said:



			OP, i have a rising 4yo the same as you. Mine is 4 in June. She's KWPN and currently standing at around 16.2. I bought her last march from the field and did bits of handling with her. Sat on her around early Nov time and she has had until the last few weeks off. She has now come back into work a much stronger horse- I have started lightly riding in walk and trot from last week and on weekends she will be going on some hacks. I am aiming for 4yo classes later in the year. She is a very level headed horse whom I don't think will be too bothered by busy show atmospheres. I will start fittening her up from here on, and getting some schooling in place, then start popping some poles and fences around march-april. She is a quick learner with a good head on her,as i think many young horses are. I will start taking her jumping at the beginning of summer and aim for some 4yo classes towards september time, so she can jump at Arena UKs festival at the end of september (hopefully). I don't see any of this as strenuous work for a 4yo when she will only be ridden 2-3 times a week, and not 'hammered' at that. I think people over estimate 4yo classes. They are not technical, nor are they a rat race. For the average WB that tends to jump these 1m classes, for a steady DC they are not really that big of an ask. I know of many horses that have jumped from 4year olds, up through the age classes and the ranks without any health problems at all, and are still enjoying jumping at high level into their teens
		
Click to expand...

Great!!! Thank you!!! I was starting to wonder if the thread had got lost in a b*tch fight! 
 Mine sounds pretty similar to yours, bright, quick learner etc, I've loose schooled her a few times and she has a cracking back end, so excited to see her once shes out and about. I've booked a few clinics with her to get her used to going out with others etc so will see how she goes, and then maybe give her a few weeks off. We did have a set back on the weekend,but hoping the vet will see her Wednesday and answer some questions.


----------



## ljohnsonsj (12 January 2015)

ellie_e said:



			Great!!! Thank you!!! I was starting to wonder if the thread had got lost in a b*tch fight! 
 Mine sounds pretty similar to yours, bright, quick learner etc, I've loose schooled her a few times and she has a cracking back end, so excited to see her once shes out and about. I've booked a few clinics with her to get her used to going out with others etc so will see how she goes, and then maybe give her a few weeks off. We did have a set back on the weekend,but hoping the vet will see her Wednesday and answer some questions.
		
Click to expand...

Sounds good! Would be great if you could do some reports from your clinics etc, i think when people hear 4yos and jumping they think straight away they are going to be in lots of work,but i don't think thats the case at all, the older ones tend to be worse!


----------



## ellie_e (12 January 2015)

ljohnsonsj said:



			Sounds good! Would be great if you could do some reports from your clinics etc, i think when people hear 4yos and jumping they think straight away they are going to be in lots of work,but i don't think thats the case at all, the older ones tend to be worse!
		
Click to expand...

Shes maybe schooled once a week, shes lunged once a week, and hacked once/twice. All in walk/trot and if lunged a very small amount of canter (1 circle if that) I really dont think thats 'hard' work,and she most certianly wont be over jumped as the only reason I had something so young was to be able to stop that, but saying that, she has a job to do and believe the more she see's at a young age the better. 
 Shes off on Saturday to her first clinic with my mums horse will try and get some pics, luckily its with the guy who broke her and came with me to see her so knows her really well if it all goes pear shaped i'm hoping he can jump on! 
Ljohnson, Can I ask how yours has been in his mouth?? Shes been abit strange this last week shaking her head etc, stops when I ride her forwards but she did have her woolf tooth out so not sure if theres something going on from that still?


----------



## ljohnsonsj (12 January 2015)

ellie_e said:



			Shes maybe schooled once a week, shes lunged once a week, and hacked once/twice. All in walk/trot and if lunged a very small amount of canter (1 circle if that) I really dont think thats 'hard' work,and she most certianly wont be over jumped as the only reason I had something so young was to be able to stop that, but saying that, she has a job to do and believe the more she see's at a young age the better. 
 Shes off on Saturday to her first clinic with my mums horse will try and get some pics, luckily its with the guy who broke her and came with me to see her so knows her really well if it all goes pear shaped i'm hoping he can jump on! 
Ljohnson, Can I ask how yours has been in his mouth?? Shes been abit strange this last week shaking her head etc, stops when I ride her forwards but she did have her woolf tooth out so not sure if theres something going on from that still?
		
Click to expand...

Sorry i can't be of much help with the mouth- She has been fine!! I was actually only saying when i got back on how lovely she feels in the mouth. She had her teeth done last august-september, and dentist said she had wolf teeth but they didnt seem to be bothering her, and she hasn't seemed bothered with her bit in at all so far- but he is coming back next month so we will see. How long ago did yours have them out? If you are concerned i would definatley get back in touch with your vet/dentist and see what he thinks. Mine does sometimes stop when i ride her forwards but she does so even on a loose rein so i just put that down to baby behaviour, but now you've mentioned it! I will mention it to my dentist when he comes back out too


----------



## Tnavas (12 January 2015)

Auslander said:



			The title "Doctor" - combined with years of study at the Royal Veterinary College would probably suffice...
		
Click to expand...

What a lot of snotty people we have on here today! 

Let's say that experience says a lot as well as credentials. There are vets and there are vets! 

Some vets barely know one end of a horse from the other, their equine knowledge only gained from the training they have received. Like the one who bandaged my youngsters cut leg with a couple of turns of vet wrap. When the horse was returned to me by the child leasing it the bandage was in the wound. So to me vets are not gods!

Science may 'prove' many things but sadly they are not always right. In some matters I go by my experience, in this case the stress the young horse puts his limbs under goofing around in the paddock is sufficient for me. The fact that I've not had to call a vet to any of my horses in over 20 years says much.

And in answer to the OP's post - It's a stupid thing to do to be competing a 4year old ShowJumping


----------



## ellie_e (12 January 2015)

ljohnsonsj said:



			Sorry i can't be of much help with the mouth- She has been fine!! I was actually only saying when i got back on how lovely she feels in the mouth. She had her teeth done last august-september, and dentist said she had wolf teeth but they didnt seem to be bothering her, and she hasn't seemed bothered with her bit in at all so far- but he is coming back next month so we will see. How long ago did yours have them out? If you are concerned i would definatley get back in touch with your vet/dentist and see what he thinks. Mine does sometimes stop when i ride her forwards but she does so even on a loose rein so i just put that down to baby behaviour, but now you've mentioned it! I will mention it to my dentist when he comes back out too
		
Click to expand...

She had it out week before Xmas, then gave her 2weeks off. She had been fine once I got back on, this has only started this week, vet is booked for Wednesday to do her second lot of jabs so will get him to look again then. Shes bright so dont want her to get into bad habits at this age! I'm riding her in a loose ring jointed snaffle, with plain caveson and running martingale. She does have pretty nasty mud fever on back legs so has been in on box rest, hoping the bad behaviour this week if just a grumpy, sore mare rather than a sign of things to come, as she has been so easy and seemed to enjoy her work.


----------



## popsdosh (12 January 2015)

ester said:



			As I said earlier

experience/pony club manual/own opinon doesn't make you right either! I imagine there are plenty of other reasons for TBs breaking more often- breeding for going fast doesn't necessarily mean soundness is included with that .

I think it's pretty obvious that you didn't used to hear about unsound horses so much in the past as they were turned away or shot... 

So far on this thread Tnavas you have claimed two things as absolute fact when questioned which have later been proved to be irrefutably wrong so I might take the rest with a pinch of salt.
		
Click to expand...

So who has the proof that TBs break more than other types as I would dispute that! Top level riders in eventing are finding a lot more soundness issues now due to the warmblood breeding working its way in.
what a load of rubbish about hearing about unsound horses . horses were sounder years ago because people knew how to get them fit properly and look after them without cutting corners it wasnt because they were turned away or shot, where is your proof on that one. Maybe today we here more about horses being unsound due to this forum and others. As much as you will disagree where is the proof that horses are having longer competetive lives due to veterinary science. You only have to look at various records within the horse world to realise that the perceived improvement in the equine world brought about by science and veterinary care has not improved the equine athlete at all compared to how the human one has improved. In racing as that is the easiest discipline to compare there are some records that have stood for many decades.
The trouble is scientists like to think their improving the world however reality is a different thing,I have yet to meet one who has an ounce of common sense.


----------



## JFTDWS (12 January 2015)

Tnavas said:



			Some vets barely know one end of a horse from the other, their equine knowledge only gained from the training they have received. Like the one who bandaged my youngsters cut leg with a couple of turns of vet wrap. When the horse was returned to me by the child leasing it the bandage was in the wound. So to me vets are not gods!

Science may 'prove' many things but sadly they are not always right. In some matters I go by my experience, in this case the stress the young horse puts his limbs under goofing around in the paddock is sufficient for me. The fact that I've not had to call a vet to any of my horses in over 20 years says much.
		
Click to expand...

Are you really suggesting that Ian Cameron, partner at Rossdales, one of the foremost equine vet practices in the UK, used (I believe) by the NZ eventing team, doesn't know one end of a horse from the other?  Because that's quite a substantial claim...

On a technical point (and yes, I do get bored of saying this), science doesn't seek to "prove" things.  Science investigates and presents real evidence - not anecdotes and unsubstantiated claims - in unbiased terms.  This discussion has never been about you...


----------



## popsdosh (12 January 2015)

JustFindingTheDecorations said:



			Are you really suggesting that Ian Cameron, partner at Rossdales, one of the foremost equine vet practices in the UK, used (I believe) by the NZ eventing team, doesn't know one end of a horse from the other?  Because that's quite a substantial claim...

On a technical point (and yes, I do get bored of saying this), science doesn't seek to "prove" things.  Science investigates and presents real evidence - not anecdotes and unsubstantiated claims - in unbiased terms.  This discussion has never been about you...
		
Click to expand...

Cant help it sorry! Just like UEA on climate change then.
  Scientists tend to twist things to the benefit of whos paying the bills this month im afraid!! Truely independant minded scientist are few and far between!


----------



## popsdosh (12 January 2015)

Sorry OP but for what its worth I would suggest that with mine their 4yo year is really a play it by ear year ! That probably does not help you much but my years have taught me no two horses are the same but I draw on my experience to do as much as I think the horse can cope with physically and mentally. There is no doubt that if you do to much to soon you will pay for it down the line. It is the inexperienced owners who have the biggest issue with this approach as they have not built up that knowledge over the years and just go by what they see others doing. 
My only answer to that would be in showjumping and eventing you will not see professional riders competing horses that they think is one for them in the future at that age! They only tend to bring out young horses that they then sell on.


----------



## ljohnsonsj (12 January 2015)

Almost all of Laura Renwicks, and many other SJ'ers jump their horses, compete them aswell at 4. Not heavy but they do.


----------



## Bantry (12 January 2015)

ljohnsonsj said:



			Almost all of Laura Renwicks, and many other SJ'ers jump their horses, compete them aswell at 4. Not heavy but they do.
		
Click to expand...

the difference between a pro competing a 4 yr old and an amateur competing a 4 yr old is this-



ellie_e said:



			this is my first real youngster so have been unsure what to expect from her.  I've booked her onto a load of different clinics ranging from flat, pole work and some jumping in late feb
		
Click to expand...

A pro can sit on 4 yr old, pop them over a couple of fences at home one or twice and then take them to a show. The pro has confidence in their own ability to manage the situation, regardless of what happens in the ring, to make it a positive experience for the horse.

An amateur will seek to create a positive experience by repetition, ie grid work at home, clinics, training shows over tiny fences etc. On a young horse this causes additional milage and while I think some 4 yr olds are mature enough physically and mentally to be out competing I would still try and keep the milage low at this age. If you're not planning on selling them you have many years ahead to achieve your dreams


----------



## PapaFrita (12 January 2015)

seejay said:



			There are plenty of people who own eleven year old ex race horses who were broken at eighteen months raced at two and are never lame. And thousands who own ordinary riding horses broken at three or four who are eleven or more and never lame.
		
Click to expand...

*Waves* Yep 15yo TB never lame beyond abscesses and a splint.


----------



## tristar (12 January 2015)

here is a bit of sort of science, not mine thank god!!! but first hand from Ireland`s top racehorse trainer, who I just happened to be talking to last year, according to their vet  I don`t know the name, 80 per cent of horses at post mortem have kissing spines, now how that relates to the overall equid population I would`nt have a clue, but assuming that some died from various causes it certainly makes you think there is a lot going on under the surface that is not known about, and how does this relate to the working of horses too young would be very interesting to know, whether they were exclusively racehorses I could not say.


----------



## rara007 (14 January 2015)

tristar said:



			here is a bit of sort of science, not mine thank god!!! but first hand from Ireland`s top racehorse trainer, who I just happened to be talking to last year, according to their vet  I don`t know the name, 80 per cent of horses at post mortem have kissing spines, now how that relates to the overall equid population I would`nt have a clue, but assuming that some died from various causes it certainly makes you think there is a lot going on under the surface that is not known about, and how does this relate to the working of horses too young would be very interesting to know, whether they were exclusively racehorses I could not say.
		
Click to expand...

I think the most recent work has 92% of racehorses at PM have evidence of KS, whilst 40% of normal (not showing signs) of 'normal' horses show it on radiograph. 97 or 98% of racehorses on PM also have osteoarthritis of the facet joints. What no one knows is how many of these were actually showing back pain, or is it just 'horses' or 'TBs'. The 40% of normal horses is a random cross section, not ones presented with issues.


----------



## Prince33Sp4rkle (14 January 2015)

PapaFrita said:



			*Waves* Yep 15yo TB never lame beyond abscesses and a splint.
		
Click to expand...

also waving-Fig, broken at 18months, raced at 2yo, until 7yo, moved from Oz to Japan to Uk and started his dressage career at 8yo.............now 11yo competing adv med and schooling PSG and doesnt even have a splint never mind been lame.

Thats hard work.

some horses are tough and some are not and beyond not thrashing anything of any age over ****** ground i thinks its a much a lottery as a science.


----------



## siennamum (14 January 2015)

To respond to the Op. I think the quantity of work is important as is the quality of the work.

We've commented on here before that a good pro will get a young horse to do more, quicker than your average numpty, with less prep and less strain. So it probably depends on how much drilling or prep you need to do to achieve the age classes as to whether they are a good idea.

I also believe that too much work on surfaces - including 'good' surfaces, is detrimental, horse needs a range of surfaces & plenty of steady road work is my ideal. I would also not ever do much gridwork with a baby, much prefer polework, with related distances and single efforts to ensure they can canter down to a fence happily. I'd do all the above with a 4year old with loads of time off after work days and rarely 'on the bit'.


----------



## tristar (14 January 2015)

on the kissing spines , I said 80 per cent because I was,nt sure I remembered it correctly and did.nt want to say the wrong figure but I was sure it was 80 or 90, but I think they actually said 90 per cent.

I knew a horse of 22 competing in dressage who raced at 2, he was really lovely small neat chestnut, however my mind often wanders to the thousands of tb`s exported for meat.


----------



## Firewell (14 January 2015)

My horse was broken young for racing. Raced once at 3 then turned away until 4. When he was 4.5 he did some hacking, reschooling and a showing show. He didn't start jumping untill he was nearing 5. 
He's officially in his 10th year now and other than some stiffness issues I have to keep on top of which I believe is a product of his early breaking touch wood he's a tough sound thing. I attribute that to his good conformation and the fact he had that time off as a 4yr old to mature.

I now livery at a top sport horse breeding and showjumping yard. The horses owned by the yard owners are never broken before their 4th year. They are regularly handled since day one but they do not see a saddle or a bit until they turn 4. They don't do in hand work or anything. They don't go to a show until 5. Then they progress quickly. Their rising 6yr old is jumping 1m20 courses. The fact the horses are mature and the skill and knowledge of the riders who break them and bring them on mean they sail through the ropes. They have them jumping small x poles only 6-8 weeks after starting their long reining and lunging. They spend the rest of the 4th year jumping at home.
5th year they go out and start with 90-1m courses at shows but they are jumping much bigger at home by this stage and they quickly move up from there. 

They also break horses for other people and they have different instructions from other owners. There are a couple two year olds being broken at the moment and they look so weak compared to the yard horses. They also have a tougher time. The two-three year olds are not so smooth at being broken as the older horses and it makes us all sad to see them fight on the long lines as they get confused and don't have the strength to do what is asked of them. They all get there in the end of course, but they do take longer. We do all wonder how they will fare in the future. My yard owner who jumps at  Grand Prix maintains that she would never break one of their own until it's 4th year and she's proud that a lot of the home grown ones are still doing jobs in their 20's .


----------



## only_me (14 January 2015)

Just to add, bill managed to get a splint on the foreleg simply from playing in his field. He got the splint at 5, and it had completely gone (reabsorbed) by end of his 6th year - and he did a 1* as a 6 year old in the young horse classes. 
He does has one on the outside of his hind, but again that one appeared overnight after a week off in the field -pretty sure he got kicked by the donkeys. It is in the process of receding, but it will take time. He hasn't been lame with either of splints. 

OP, In your shoes I would probably just do a bit of everything with a 4 year old, see the world etc. and do competitions of all atmospheres, ie. Small quiet ones to big busy shows. Schooling i would just aim for basics and then towards end of 4th year step up the work . 
I'n Ireland 4 year olds are a big market as they start to show potential - but rye talent & potential can be seen over 90cms just as much as 1.20  
Even the RDS Young event horse championship only has the 4 year olds jumping 1m max, so I would just do what feels right with yours


----------

