# Anyone else getting foals soon



## AMW (14 September 2012)

We have 3 coming to us in the next few weeks, 2 fillies & a colt 
Cant wait, love getting them as babies and bringing them on and seeing how they turn out 
Anyone else had the long wait between deposit & delivery ?


----------



## Charlie77 (14 September 2012)

Collecting mine at the end of October


----------



## RutlandH2O (14 September 2012)

Mine is coming the 19 October. I'm over the moon! She's equine, but not a horse...


----------



## AMW (14 September 2012)

OMG that is soooo seriously cute 
what is she called?


----------



## Diddleydoo (14 September 2012)

Wow, stunning.  Nuff said


----------



## foxy1 (14 September 2012)

Me!! Although owned by my sister, he is coming to live with my yearlings and I will be looking after him 
Rutland H20: I want one of those!!!!


----------



## Meowy Catkin (14 September 2012)

That is the cutest donkey foal ever!    Poitou?

Looking forwards to lots of photos when you get her.


----------



## Polotash (14 September 2012)

That donkey is GORGEOUS!


----------



## AMW (14 September 2012)

These are our new additions, photos taken a couple of months ago so looking forward to seeing what they are like now


----------



## Crugeran Celt (14 September 2012)

We are waiting for our new miniature who was born in June so won't be having her for a month or two yet. We have bought her as a surprise for my MIL as my miniature mare had a still birth in April and my MIL was to have that foal. This new one is the granddaughter of mine. Can't wait to see MIL reaction! Not even sure what colour she is going to be as mum is a coloured and dad a palamino, grandma is a liver chestnut and lst time I saw foaly she was champaigne coloured. Any ideas what colour she may turn out be?


----------



## amy_b (14 September 2012)

Crugeran Celt said:



			We are waiting for our new miniature who was born in June so won't be having her for a month or two yet. We have bought her as a surprise for my MIL as my miniature mare had a still birth in April and my MIL was to have that foal. This new one is the granddaughter of mine. Can't wait to see MIL reaction! Not even sure what colour she is going to be as mum is a coloured and dad a palamino, grandma is a liver chestnut and lst time I saw foaly she was champaigne coloured. Any ideas what colour she may turn out be?
		
Click to expand...

what colour coloured? Sounds palomino...


----------



## SpottyTB (14 September 2012)

Yesss  my boy's coming in about 5/6 weeks time . SO excited  - what's everyone getting? DETAIL'S/PHOTO'S needed 

My chap is dutch warmblood x polish warmblood, he'll be just under 6 months when we get him and he should reach around 16-16.2 hopefully  here's a pic i took of him when he was 3 and a half months old.. 












He's called Hugo


----------



## RutlandH2O (14 September 2012)

Yup, she's a Livre A (pure, registered) Anesse du Poitou, anesse being a jenny. Apparently, all Poitous look like her when they are babies.

Sadly, on 30 August, my dear standard donkey, Dave, who I've had for over 15 years, died of liver failure (my third rescue donkey to die of liver failure over the past 16 years). We don't have a ragwort problem, but they all must have had exposure to it before they came to us. My standard jenny, who comes from show stock with a known provenance, was Dave's best friend for 12 years. She's now 14 years old and is desperate for company. I decided to acquire the breed of donkey I had originally wanted 18 years ago. Poitous were virtually impossible to source in the UK until quite recently. They became so endangered, numerically, that by 1977, there were only 44 left. There is a concerted breeding programme in France, so much so that the French have allowed people in other countries to acquire and breed them. The little munchkin in the photo is coming to me from a zoological park in Cambridgeshire. I was in the right place at the right time when I found out I would be able to purchase her. In the meantime, I have just purchased a 5 year old Livre A anesse from a breeder in France. She will be coming to our farm next week.


----------



## RutlandH2O (14 September 2012)

I meant to mention that there are some very lovely babies on this thread. SpottyTB, your Hugo is stunning! What forechest for a baby, besides his head, body, neck, etc.


----------



## SpottyTB (14 September 2012)

Thank you RutlandH20 - he's pretty well developed for his age.. he's got a lovely jumpers bottom ;p 

Your little donkey is gorgeous - i'll have to show my OH he LOVES donkeys - really want's one ;p - sorry to hear about Dave. (RIP) xx


----------



## Crugeran Celt (14 September 2012)

amy_b said:



			what colour coloured? Sounds palomino...
		
Click to expand...

Not quite as pale as lemon and white but not really chestnut either. I thought she may be palamino but her mane and tail are the same colour as her body not flaxen. her breeder thinks she will be chestnut but I am not so sure maybe cremello, is that possible with her parents colour? Sorry I know I am a bit vaque but not very good with the colour thing. I once bred a dark bay mare and stallion and ended up with a black mare!


----------



## RutlandH2O (14 September 2012)

SpottyTB: There are 2 Livre A yearling geldings available at the zoological park from where my baby will be coming. I didn't have the heart to separate them, and really didn't want 2 more with the foal. They are lovely and so personable. Dare you show this to your OH?

I did forget to mention Hugo's beautilicious bum.


----------



## RutlandH2O (14 September 2012)

Crugeran Celt said:



			. I once bred a dark bay mare and stallion and ended up with a black mare!
		
Click to expand...

One of my black Shire mares is by a dark bay stallion and dark bay mare.


----------



## Meowy Catkin (14 September 2012)

Crugeran Celt said:



			Not quite as pale as lemon and white but not really chestnut either. I thought she may be palamino but her mane and tail are the same colour as her body not flaxen. her breeder thinks she will be chestnut but I am not so sure *maybe cremello*, is that possible with her parents colour? Sorry I know I am a bit vaque but not very good with the colour thing. *I once bred a dark bay mare and stallion and ended up with a black mare!*

Click to expand...

Remember that bays are genetically black but with the agouti gene too, hence why they have black points as the agouti fades the body colour only to brown. Each parent will have only had one copy of agouti as neither parent passed it on (they couldn't have had two copies or it would have been passed on), therefore foal is black. Simples. 



Crugeran Celt said:



			We are waiting for our new miniature who was born in June so won't be having her for a month or two yet. We have bought her as a surprise for my MIL as my miniature mare had a still birth in April and my MIL was to have that foal. This new one is the granddaughter of mine. Can't wait to see MIL reaction! Not even sure what colour she is going to be as *mum is a coloured and dad a palamino*, grandma is a liver chestnut and lst time I saw foaly she was *champaigne coloured*. Any ideas what colour she may turn out be?
		
Click to expand...

RE your foal, what colour is the dam (eg, white & buckskin, white & chestnut, white & bay etc...)?

Photos of sire, dam and foal would be very helpful.


----------



## RutlandH2O (14 September 2012)

Faracat said:



			Remember that bays are genetically black but with the agouti gene too, hence why they have black points as the agouti fades the body colour only to brown. Each parent will have only had one copy of agouti as neither parent passed it on (they couldn't have had two copies or it would have been passed on), therefore foal is black. Simples. 

Click to expand...

Is that why my black mare by a dark bay stallion, out of a dark bay mare, isn't as good a black as my other very black mare, by a very black stallion and out of a very black mare? 

BTW, I love reading your fluency in colour genetics.


----------



## Crugeran Celt (14 September 2012)

Faracat said:



			Remember that bays are genetically black but with the agouti gene too, hence why they have black points as the agouti fades the body colour only to brown. Each parent will have only had one copy of agouti as neither parent passed it on (they couldn't have had two copies or it would have been passed on), therefore foal is black. Simples. 



RE your foal, what colour is the dam (eg, white & buckskin, white & chestnut, white & bay etc...)?

Photos of sire, dam and foal would be very helpful. 

Click to expand...

Thankyou as I said bit of a numpty when it comes to colour, the mum is not as pale as a lemon and white but not as dark as a chestnut. The sire is palamino but the grandmother (mother's side) is a liver chestnut. If I knew how to post photos I would. I will take photos of both parents when I go to collect her and try to post them. The foal is a champaign colour but as I said her mane and tail are the same colour as her coat not flaxen like a palomino. To be honest it doesn't really matter what colour she turns out to be just curious really.


----------



## Meowy Catkin (14 September 2012)

RH2O - I'm glad that you enjoy my rambling colour posts. 

I'd love to see photos of both black horses if possible as one could be a smoky black.

ETA. For CC - photo instructions. 

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=426986


----------



## kinskycookie (14 September 2012)

Picking my foal/weanling up tomorrow! He's beautiful and I haven't seen him for a couple of months, can't wait to see how he has grown. So excited! I may post a picture if I can work out how to . . .


----------



## RutlandH2O (14 September 2012)

Faracat: In sunlight the difference between the blacks of both mares is much more evident.


----------



## kinskycookie (14 September 2012)

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/picture.php?albumid=5180&pictureid=18886[/IMG]


----------



## kinskycookie (14 September 2012)

Got there in the end! Cant wait to see what colour he'll be!


----------



## SpottyTB (14 September 2012)

RutlandH20 - i can't show him!! (we don't have the space  ) they are so gorgeous.. i'd love a couple too, maybe one day... and that bum is award winning  may be bias though...

Kinskycookie - yours is bloody gorgeous!!!! What a pretty head he has!  good luck!! My TB X knabstrupper (the one in my sig) started of bright bay/chestnut with a black mane and tail (no spots) and has gone very blanket spotted on a bright bay base... mane and tail are white/grey


----------



## kinskycookie (14 September 2012)

Thank you SpottyTB - I think so too but i'm slightly biased!    He started off black with a little white spotty blanket, as his foal fluff disappeared he became spottier and lighter! He is also a knabstrupper x . Yours is beautiful, the colour changes that spotties go through fascinates me!


----------



## SpottyTB (14 September 2012)

kinskycookie said:



			Thank you SpottyTB - I think so too but i'm slightly biased!    He started off black with a little white spotty blanket, as his foal fluff disappeared he became spottier and lighter! He is also a knabstrupper x . Yours is beautiful, the colour changes that spotties go through fascinates me!
		
Click to expand...

He is very nice and you'll find he'll be extremely talented - seems knabstruppers X are very good allrounders. Mine's pretty good a jumping and has balls of steel about pretty scary stuff.. and i'm putting it down to the knabstrupper 

Yeah Gem is my colour fix and Hugo is my plain fix  - two completely different looking horses!!!


----------



## MillionDollar (14 September 2012)

Mine will be coming home around the 10th November.

Chestnut Welsh D colt.........


----------



## Enfys (14 September 2012)

RutlandH2O said:



			Mine is coming the 19 October. I'm over the moon! She's equine, but not a horse...






Click to expand...

Is all that fluff for real?! I hate myself for saying this but she is seriously cute.   Goes off to Google them, I _think_ I may have seen them in France though.

Oh my   BIG donkeys   I have seen them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poitou_donkey


----------



## RutlandH2O (15 September 2012)

Enfys said:



			Is all that fluff for real?! I hate myself for saying this but she is seriously cute.   Goes off to Google them, I _think_ I may have seen them in France though.

Oh my   BIG donkeys   I have seen them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poitou_donkey

Click to expand...

All that fluff is very real! My farrier, and a poster on another forum, thought the foal's coat was a pantomime costume and two men would jump out of it!

The Poitou is seriously large. The French never mention an individual of the breed without also quoting its taille au garrot (height at withers), tour du canon (circumference of cannon), and largeur du sabot (width of hoof). Their legs and feet should be comparable to that of a carriage horse. Their heads are so large that heavy horse head collars are required (I use pony collars on my standards).

These donkeys are not working animals. Their value was/is in producing superior working mules when crossed with a French heavy horse breed called the Mulassiere. The cross is always baudet de Poitou (Poitou stallion) to Mulassiere mare, never the other way round. It is said the best of both animals is achieved this way. Apparently, the horse stallion crossed with the anesse du Poitou produces a vast reduction in quality, so much so as to preclude any discussion of such a union.

There's a lady called "luvmyfilly" on YouTube. She has a ranch in Ontario, Canada. Among her other equines, she has a few Poitous. She has several videos of a 5/6 months old Poitou filly called Bella. She is a knockout! You might enjoy watching her antics.

So, when are you adding a Poitou to your herd?


----------



## Enfys (15 September 2012)

Oh, Rutland, Thankyou for that info. I will have to have a look at that

  I just happen to live in Ontario as you know, slight problem though, Ontario is 7 x larger than England! I will find her though 

Google is a wonderful thing. Keepsake Gypsy Acres is, according to Map Quest, only 70km away, so just down the road in the grand scheme of things.


----------



## Meowy Catkin (15 September 2012)

RutlandH2O said:



			Faracat: In sunlight the difference between the blacks of both mares is much more evident.
	
	
		
		
	


	




Click to expand...

From how they look in this photo - I would say that they are both EE (black) with no agouti or cream. However the mare on the right looks like she might be a _fading black_. What that means is that her coat is more easily bleached by the sunlight, but there isn't a genetic difference to explain it. 



kinskycookie said:



			Got there in the end! Cant wait to see what colour he'll be! 
	
	
		
		
	


	




Click to expand...

I think that he will continue to fade, although his dark spots will remain dark.


----------



## Kirrabo (15 September 2012)

OK, that has got to be the most gorgeous donkey I have ever seen! It looks like a soft toy - can't believe it's real!! Love it!  I bought a baby donkey from a Basuto man while living temporarily on a mission in Losothu, South Africa. Called it 'Eyor'. It was also REALLY cute but this one beats them all!


----------



## bryngelenponies (15 September 2012)

MillionDollar said:



			Mine will be coming home around the 10th November.

Chestnut Welsh D colt.........







Click to expand...

He looks nice  how's he bred? 
This is my girly who's coming in 2 weeks  she's a section D


----------



## FfionWinnie (15 September 2012)

RutlandH2O said:



			Mine is coming the 19 October. I'm over the moon! She's equine, but not a horse...






Click to expand...

Omg she is so cool and um not real looking


----------



## RutlandH2O (15 September 2012)

Enfys said:



			Oh, Rutland, Thankyou for that info. I will have to have a look at that

  I just happen to live in Ontario as you know, slight problem though, Ontario is 7 x larger than England! I will find her though 

Google is a wonderful thing. Keepsake Gypsy Acres is, according to Map Quest, only 70km away, so just down the road in the grand scheme of things. 

Click to expand...

Um, I didn't know you are in Ontario. Having read many of your posts, I somehow thought you were in the States.

So, you know the ranch/farm, then? What a coincidence. Their baby, Bella, just screams quality (and naughtiness).


----------



## RutlandH2O (15 September 2012)

Thanks, Kirrabo. All Poitou babies look like this. On cuteness and sweet temperament alone, I just don't understand why there aren't millions and millions of them about!

MillionDollar & bryngelenponies: lovely Section Ds. You must be so excited about them!


----------



## RutlandH2O (15 September 2012)

Faracat: Thanks for that info. The mare on the right was served by a black Shire stallion with black and a few greys behind him. Her, now, 3 year old gelding son is a very good black. The mare on the left was served by a very dark bay stallion with quite a bit of dark bay behind him. Her black 3 year old gelding son is more like the mare on the right in colour. Very interesting.

I know the answer to the following but I'd like to read your take on the situation. A bay stallion covered a bay mare and their colt foal was originally registered as a bay. All four of the colt's grandparents are bay. As the colt matured, his bay coat turned to "grey." The owner "corrected" his papers, saying he meant grey instead of bay. This colt has now passed his 2 year old inspection. He has considerable white in his "grey" coat. Many of us know that he is, in fact, a roan, a colour completely non-registrable in stallions of this breed. Comments?


----------



## Meowy Catkin (15 September 2012)

A bay stallion covered a bay mare and their colt foal was originally registered as a bay. All four of the colt's grandparents are bay. As the colt matured, his bay coat turned to "grey." The owner "corrected" his papers, saying he meant grey instead of bay. This colt has now passed his 2 year old inspection. He has considerable white in his "grey" coat. Many of us know that he is, in fact, a roan, a colour completely non-registrable in stallions of this breed. Comments?
		
Click to expand...

Is this Shires that we are talking about?

Was the change of colour when he lost his foal coat?

Has his colour been stable since?

Do you have a photo? 

ETA. You could PM a photo if you don't want to post it.


----------



## RutlandH2O (15 September 2012)

It is a Shire. I believe his coat colour changed when the foal coat moulted. His coat has remained stable, considering he's just a colt. I don't have a photo, although there are a couple in the Heavy Horse magazine. There are a number of people calling for DNA tests on the colt. Isn't it a fact that in order for this stallion to be grey, at least one of his parents or grandparents has to be grey?


----------



## Meowy Catkin (15 September 2012)

Grey shows with only one copy of the gene (also shows with two copies, but it doesn't double the effect as cream does) so one of his parents would have been grey. Also greys continue to change, so his colour would not be stable.

It isn't unusual for the foal coat to be slightly different to the other coats following the first moulting.

The true Roan gene is obvious to spot as it leaves the head, legs, mane and tail 'unroaned' of course this is ignoring any white markings.

Other genes can cause roaning, sabino is a common one and as it is in the Shire population, could he actually be a sabino/blagden?


----------



## Meowy Catkin (15 September 2012)

Ok, I forgot to say that if he was a real roan, with the true Roan gene - one of his parents would be roan as it also shows in both the heterozygous and homozygous form like grey.

Here is a bay roan






This is a bay sabino, and this photo shows just how much roaning, sabino can produce.






Sabino is a funny gene. It can cause the tiniest of white markings, right up to a pure white horse (base colour totally covered) and every variation in between those two. It's also hard to test for because it comes in slightly different forms and at the moment, there is only a DNA test for Sabino1.


----------



## Meowy Catkin (15 September 2012)

I googled _Bay Shire_ and this is one of the photos that came up. 






This horse is a bay sabino too, it's just that the sabino gene is not 'expressed' as much as on the horse in my post above. You can see the sabino because the white markings have jagged edges and the horse has a pink patch on his lower lip. Both of these are very, very strong indicators of sabino (plus we know that it's rampant throughout the Shire population).


----------



## RutlandH2O (15 September 2012)

Yes, sabino/blagden, but not grey, right? There are no greys in his background for him to be grey.


----------



## Meowy Catkin (15 September 2012)

You are correct, if neither of his parents are grey, then he isn't grey.

If he is a sabino/blagden, then his colour is surely an allowed colour (given how common it is)?

I really want to see a photo of him now.


----------



## RutlandH2O (15 September 2012)

I just found the most recent photo of the horse in question. His head, tail, mane, part of his neck and upper arms are unroaned. They are black. His sire is black and his dam is bay.


----------



## elumpshie (15 September 2012)

Yip after a tough few months of nearly loosing my mare after a c section then making biggest decision to put my foal to sleep I've went and bought a wee filly  how do I attach a pic


----------



## Meowy Catkin (15 September 2012)

part of his neck
		
Click to expand...

Mmmm - this coupled with the fact that neither parent are roans, still sways me towards sabino.


----------



## RutlandH2O (15 September 2012)

I don't believe there is provision for sabino/blagden in the permitted Shire horse stallion colour  list (black, bay, brown, grey are the only permitted colours). If this horse is not grey (because neither of his parents are grey), he shouldn't be a licensed stallion. For the sake of the breed, the integrity of the society, and anyone looking for a grey stallion for their mares, this animals should be gelded and placed in the non-breeding register.


----------



## RutlandH2O (15 September 2012)

elumpshie said:



			Yip after a tough few months of nearly loosing my mare after a c section then making biggest decision to put my foal to sleep I've went and bought a wee filly  how do I attach a pic
		
Click to expand...

Good for you! Do you have a Photobucket account?


----------



## elumpshie (15 September 2012)

Erm nope :/ how do I get one lol


----------



## RutlandH2O (15 September 2012)

Faracat said:



			Mmmm - this coupled with the fact that neither parent are roans, still sways me towards sabino.
		
Click to expand...

Despite the black colour of the aforementioned body parts, the rest of him is roan (black and lots of white interspersed in the coat). It is a colour expressly forbidden in stallions, as are wall-eyes. Interestingly, mares are permitted to be roan and have wall-eyes. Can roan skip a generation(s)? That's from where the roan comes, then...


----------



## RutlandH2O (15 September 2012)

elumpshie said:



			Erm nope :/ how do I get one lol
		
Click to expand...

I've only just learned how to post photos...I'm still not sure how I did it or how to explain how you should go about it. 

Can someone a bit more fluent help this person open a Photobucket account and post some photos? I'd surely like to see your new baby.


----------



## Meowy Catkin (15 September 2012)

RutlandH2O said:



			I don't believe there is provision for sabino/blagden in the permitted Shire horse stallion colour  list (black, bay, brown, grey are the only permitted colours). If this horse is not grey (because neither of his parents are grey), he shouldn't be a licensed stallion. For the sake of the breed, the integrity of the society, and anyone looking for a grey stallion for their mares, this animals should be gelded and placed in the non-breeding register.
		
Click to expand...

I actually disagree with you there (if this horse really is a sabino).

Sabino is very, very common in Shires, he is no different genetically from any other Shire with sabino (pretty much all of them). Sabino isn't a colour - it's a modifying gene.

I do agree that he shouldn't be listed as a grey if he isn't, but if he has good confo etc... why would using him be detrimental to the breed?

Maybe this issue needs to be tackled at the top level as there is more understanding RE the genetics now, maybe the colour rules need clarifying. If you said 'no sabinos' every Shire with white markings (that includes any greys that also have sabino) would be out of the breed registry.

It's an interesting topic. 


ETA. Photo instructions. 
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=426986


----------



## MillionDollar (15 September 2012)

bryngelenponies said:



			He looks nice  how's he bred? 
This is my girly who's coming in 2 weeks  she's a section D 






Click to expand...

Thanks! He's by Danaway Flash Jack out of Danaway Cherimarie. How about yours?


----------



## RutlandH2O (15 September 2012)

I agree, Shires are either black sabino, bay sabino, brown sabino, grey sabino. No doubt about it. However, listing this stallion as a grey is completely incorrect because he has no grey behind him in his parents or grandparents. What worries quite a few of us is the fact that the powers that be don't seem to be aware of colour genetics and see what looks like a grey, call it a grey, license it as a grey, but, in fact, it's not a grey, but a roan. By their own rules, stallions can not be roan. End of. Grey Shires are numerically few and far between. Allowing this stallion to serve mares with the thought of producing greys is a complete waste of time, money, and expectations.


----------



## elumpshie (15 September 2012)




----------



## elumpshie (15 September 2012)

Thank you for your help Rutland & faracat


----------



## Meowy Catkin (15 September 2012)

I'm really enjoying this.  I am now dying to see a photo of this horse. 

In a way, this is a case of phenotype verses genotype. The way the horse 'looks' v the genes that it has.

I would argue that although he is 'roaned', he doesn't count as a Roan (capital R) because he doesn't have the Roan gene. If it was up to me, sabinos of any degree of expression would be allowed, because although a maximum or medium sabino looks different to a minimal sabino, there isn't a different gene involved. 

If you decide that only minimal sabinos are allowed, you have to have a cut off point. So when does a minimal sabino become a medium sabino? You can't test for a difference, you'd have to do it by surface area affected by the sabino gene, or something similarly subjective.

You would then have some very good specimens of the breed chucked out of the gene pool/breeding programme, even though their genes are 'allowed'. 

I do get a bit narked when passports have the wrong colour down, mainly because it makes the passport not match the horse that it's for. So the breed society registering him as grey makes me quite cross.



			Grey Shires are numerically few and far between. Allowing this stallion to serve mares with the thought of producing greys is a complete waste of time, money, and expectations.
		
Click to expand...

I agree with you totally.


----------



## Meowy Catkin (15 September 2012)

elumpshie said:



			Thank you for your help Rutland & faracat 

Click to expand...

No problem. 

Lovely foal too.


----------



## RutlandH2O (15 September 2012)

elumpshie: I wish I could have been more help. Glad you were able to post the photo of a lovely youngster.


----------



## elumpshie (15 September 2012)

Thank you can't wait to get her she will never replace my wee colt but she will bring me some happiness after toughest few months of my life x


----------



## Meowy Catkin (15 September 2012)

Yip after a tough few months of nearly loosing my mare after a c section then making biggest decision to put my foal to sleep I've went and bought a wee filly
		
Click to expand...

E - that must have been really tough for you. I'm very sorry for your loss.

Is your mare OK now?

I hope that you have many, many wonderful years with your filly.


----------



## RutlandH2O (15 September 2012)

The thing about phenotype vs genotype is that this horse appears to have the phenotype of a roan, AND the genotype of a roan. Without grey forebears, he isn't grey. How do we know he doesn't have the roan gene? Since mares can be roan, and many are, that could be the answer to his colour.

When you mention minimum vs maximum sabino, that is the amount of white, i.e., 4 white legs up to mid-cannon, as opposed to 4 whites up to and including gaskins, stifles, forearms and body splashes (not over the back). The standard for the breed discourages the latter, but the number of champions with extensive white would contradict that directive. Yes, the decision to accept or reject minimum/maximum sabino is so subjective.


----------



## elumpshie (15 September 2012)

Its been a tough 2 years last year she was maiden mare put her in foal and had a lovley colt but sadly he was born asleep and had a contracted tendon  after long talk with vet he said just been bad luck so I tried again and now feel so guilty after wat my mate went threw after c section had another lovley colt but sadly with2 contacted tendons which he had op on straight away but after 5 days I had to make hardest decision and do wat was best for him  now 6 weeks down line my mare still recovering but gettin back to her self every day  but I'll never forgive myself for what I put her through x


----------



## RutlandH2O (15 September 2012)

Faracat said:



			E - that must have been really tough for you. I'm very sorry for your loss.

Is your mare OK now?

I hope that you have many, many wonderful years with your filly. 

Click to expand...

elumpshie: ^^^^^This.


----------



## RutlandH2O (15 September 2012)

elumpshie said:



			Its been a tough 2 years last year she was maiden mare put her in foal and had a lovley colt but sadly he was born asleep and had a contracted tendon  after long talk with vet he said just been bad luck so I tried again and now feel so guilty after wat my mate went threw after c section had another lovley colt but sadly with2 contacted tendons which he had op on straight away but after 5 days I had to make hardest decision and do wat was best for him  now 6 weeks down line my mare still recovering but gettin back to her self every day  but I'll never forgive myself for what I put her through x
		
Click to expand...

You are being too hard on yourself. Your vet is right when he said it has just been bad luck. I've been there and I know what you are going through. Rejoice in your mare's recovery. Slowly, but surely, you are getting your friend back. Every day you see improvement in your mare's health is reason to smile. Now, with your new youngster you've got double the pleasure.


----------



## Meowy Catkin (15 September 2012)

E - it wasn't your fault that the foal had tendon trouble. It sounds like you did everything possible to save the foal. I hope that your mare is fully recovered soon. 


RH20 -



			AND the genotype of a roan. Without grey forebears, he isn't grey. How do we know he doesn't have the roan gene? Since mares can be roan
		
Click to expand...

Firstly - how odd that mares have different rules to stallions. 

Shires (as far as I'm aware) don't have the true Roan gene. Also neither of his parents were Roans, which one (or both) would have been if he was a true Roan.

It is possible to have 'roaning' of the coat but to not be genetically roan. rabicano is another gene that causes roaning.

The breed society needs to decide how 'roan' is defined because having base coloured hairs mixed with white hairs doesn't make a horse genetically roan. Grey can also cause roaning (until the horse greys out further).

So there are four genes that cause roaning, two of which are in the breed.

Does this horse have a website? Could you PM me his name so I can look him up? I wont link to him or reveal who he is.


----------



## RutlandH2O (15 September 2012)

It has always irked me that the rules for stallions are not the same for mares. I know, stallions can have a greater influence on numbers in a breed, but if a fault is allowed in mares, it can still be passed to future generations, especially if said mare produces a son who ultimately becomes a prolific sire.

You have to remember that there is a considerable amount of roan in the Shire due to its crosses to Clydesdales in the 30s, 40s, 50s and 60s. Before the Shire became numerically compromised, Clyde was infused into the breed to improve front action in the Shire and to 
confer a silkier, whiter feather. With that came wall eyes and roaning. When the grading up registry was instituted to increase Shire numbers (during its decline due to mechanisation on farms) that, too, introduced roaning to a great degree. There are breeders of both breeds on the same farms and sometimes it's difficult to know which one of their animals is a Shire and which is a Clyde. I believe the prohibition of roan in Shire stallions is a direct result of the roan that comes with crosses to Clydes (soooo many are roan).

I agree, this is fun. I'm really enjoying it!


----------



## Meowy Catkin (16 September 2012)

You have to ask - when is a roan, not a Roan? 

I would say that all sabinos, rabicanos and greys are not roans even when they 'look' it.

This Clydesdale (nearest one) is not a roan - it's a sabino.







If you decided to eradicate sabino from the Shire population, then you would end up with a breed that has hardly any/no white like Cleveland bays as sabino is one of the main causes of white markings.

The thing is (the bit that I'm stuck on) is that there isn't Roan in the Shire population. sabino - yes.

I can see why they want to differentiate between Shires and Clydesdales. You could decide to never breed from animals with medium or maximum sabino, but you will still get foals from minimal sabino parents that are med/max. It's just the way it goes - like it sounds is the case with this horse.


----------



## RutlandH2O (16 September 2012)

I'm starting to fade. To be continued. Maybe I can get a photo of this stallion to you by taking a picture of the photo in the magazine and sending it to you.


----------



## Meowy Catkin (16 September 2012)

That would be fab.


----------



## Venevidivici (16 September 2012)

The Poitou is cute  I must confess though *whispers* I did a double take,as initially thought it was 2people in a pantomime costume...sorry! Beautifully unusual though.


----------



## RutlandH2O (16 September 2012)

Venevidivici said:



			The Poitou is cute  I must confess though *whispers* I did a double take,as initially thought it was 2people in a pantomime costume...sorry! Beautifully unusual though.

Click to expand...

You aren't alone in that thought!!


----------



## bryngelenponies (16 September 2012)

MillionDollar said:



			Thanks! He's by Danaway Flash Jack out of Danaway Cherimarie. How about yours?
		
Click to expand...

Ah right I thought I recognised him but wasn't sure, I've got the stud on facebook. Mine is by Terackie Winter Shadow out of Terackie Madam Xantia (Nebo Daniel).


----------



## RutlandH2O (16 September 2012)

Faracat said:



			You have to ask - when is a roan, not a Roan? 

I would say that all sabinos, rabicanos and greys are not roans even when they 'look' it.

This Clydesdale (nearest one) is not a roan - it's a sabino.







If you decided to eradicate sabino from the Shire population, then you would end up with a breed that has hardly any/no white like Cleveland bays as sabino is one of the main causes of white markings.

The thing is (the bit that I'm stuck on) is that there isn't Roan in the Shire population. sabino - yes.

I can see why they want to differentiate between Shires and Clydesdales. You could decide to never breed from animals with medium or maximum sabino, but you will still get foals from minimal sabino parents that are med/max. It's just the way it goes - like it sounds is the case with this horse.
		
Click to expand...

I think you've hit the nail on the head: the word "roan" is being used phenotypically, while the word "grey" is being used genetically. 

I have never seen the word "sabino" in any colour description of Shires in the UK. I first came across the word while looking at a list of registered Shires, and their colours, in Australia. I mentioned the word sabino to a few well-known Shire breeders in this country and the response was "pardon?"

When I started breeding Shires, I endeavoured to arm myself with as much information on colour genetics as was possible. I did photographic pedigree searches as far back, where possible, as eight/nine generations, sometimes more, sometimes less. When I mentioned this to a few very influential Shire breeders, they just laughed. They said "you get what you get, you can't breed for colour or make predictions based on a future foal's forebears."

There are a few stallions who are splashed with more white than desirable within the standard. Likewise, there are many mares with only three whites, sometimes two. While the standard does not require four whites, they are very highly prized (despite the fact that there are plenty of quality Shires missing a white, while there are those with four whites and that's all that can be said for their quality). Many Shire folk keep mares with three whites (because they are less expensive to acquire), breed from them, produce foals with four whites, and extol the praises of the mare in producing a full set of whites. It's in the next generation that the "missing" whites appear. Having said all that, it is a genetic crap shoot, except where grey is concerned.


----------



## RutlandH2O (16 September 2012)

I love the Clyde in your previous post. I had one like that for 12 years and lost him to severe colic in 2010. He was a bit paler than the aforementioned Clyde, but we always referred to him as roan.

Okay, what is the correct term for a roan? Is it a phenotypical colouring or a genetic expression of colour? How?


----------



## ester (16 September 2012)

There is only one grey stally on this list 
http://www.shire-horse.org.uk/images/stories/premiums 2012.pdf

If you google him a couple of pro pics come up.. he certainly looks roan but the pics aren't great and legs are roaned too. 

http://carolstevensraycasse.photosh...lts-Geldings-and-Stallions/G0000ZNJPGiU33fE/2

scroll down, I believe he is number 35


----------



## RutlandH2O (16 September 2012)

ester said:



			There is only one grey stally on this list 
http://www.shire-horse.org.uk/images/stories/premiums 2012.pdf

If you google him a couple of pro pics come up.. he certainly looks roan but the pics aren't great and legs are roaned too. 

http://carolstevensraycasse.photosh...lts-Geldings-and-Stallions/G0000ZNJPGiU33fE/2

scroll down, I believe he is number 35
		
Click to expand...

Two greys are listed, but, in the opinion of many, including myself, only one is grey.

Yes, 35 it is.


----------



## RutlandH2O (16 September 2012)

Thank you, ester, for those photos. I know Faracat will be most interested in seeing them.

The photo I have is taken at the same event. However, the reproduction in the magazine in which is appears, is substantially darker.


----------

