# First horse, not for a novice!



## Guinevere (19 February 2013)

I bought a horse in December, my first horse, she is a pleasure in the field and stable but came to me underweight and extremely out of condition with no muscle. She was ridden in an ill fitting saddle for 2 years, made worse by the rider using 2 saddle pads making it even tighter on her withers and she bucked when ridden (I have not ridden her since because I wanted to have her thoroughly examined and didn't want to hurt her or rush things), I have had her back checked and she was very wonky and obviously the saddle could be a reason she was bucking as she was extremely tight, but very good for the physio and made no complaints. I have been told to lunge her for a month solid before riding her and obviously get her a new saddle fitted after that, I am booking the physio to re check her before I do so to make sure she is ready.

My problem is (I am disabled and suffer from anxiety with it) she bucks and vertically rears facing me when I lunge her, I have made the decision to get a professional to lunge her for a month and have been advised to put her on a calmer which I am doing (blue chip feed, magnesium base as recommended), but A: do you think she could be doing this because she is in pain or B: trying to test me? She does the same with professionals but it is still very early days with all of the people working with her, could this improve with time? She is excellent to shoe, clip, freezemark, you name it... Her attitude only appears when ridden or lunged and her previous owner explained (after some fishing) that she has been like it for a while, but then that saddle has been used on her for 2 years!

I was also wondering whether there was anything I could do with her that might be safer for me on the ground than lungeing, perhaps on a lead rein on the ground to bond with her and have a little fun? I will always be watched in case anything happens, with any horse, due to my condition but I feel extremely useless and wish I was able to do this all by myself. I bought her as suitable for a novice but she really isn't by all accounts, but of course that won't stop me getting the professional help I need, she is a forever horse.

I would appreciate any advice, tips and hints, thanks xxx


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## Emma1991 (19 February 2013)

I had an unhandled cobby who behaved the same way on lunge. He did it through fear and no trust in people. He was lovely on the ground to handle, but as soon as work came into it he was terrified. What I ended up doing for a while with him was lots of games in the school. Do you have access to an enclosured school where you could just let her loose? Some of the things I did were getting him to trot along behind me initially with carrots as reward, and then he did it because he wanted to after that. He'd follow me everywhere, over little jumps, tight corners. You can suddenly change direction and run towards them too and they'll move for you and then turn again and they'll follow. He loved it! I also took him for lots of in hand walks so he could learn there was nothing to be frightened of. It was a great way to bond with him and have some fun together and out of it we ended up with a horse who never needed a head collar to go anywhere, he just willingly followed along at my side. After that, we started doing lunge work and because he trusted me, he was much more relaxed and just accepted it and we had no more bucking, no more rearing and he was a dream to back!


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## Guinevere (19 February 2013)

I hadn't thought about fear of people, that could be a fear of something someone has done to her in a school, as well as any possible back issues. I will definitely take her for some walks in hand and positively reinforce with treats. I have an enclosed school at my yard so that could be possible in future. Thank you xxx


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## Guinevere (19 February 2013)

I should add she is 6 years old and a cob cross warmblood before anyone asks! Xxx


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## Luci07 (19 February 2013)

Without trying to sound too unkind...why if you are nervous yourself, did you buy a horse that you have a long way to bring back into work and don't know how it will turn out? Is there more to this story? While it is lovely you are trying to help this horse why did you pick her?


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## Tammytoo (19 February 2013)

My mare started to be stroppy when lunging in one direction but not the other.  She would throw me savage looks, stop and then turn in to face me. If I insisted she continue she would buck and try and run off. She is a lovely natured horse and, long story short, she had a hock spavin so the "naughty" behaviour was pain related.

Not saying your horse has spavins, but pain or fear can make them react badly so you are very wise to get everything physical checked out and then leave it to an experienced and sympathetic professional to get her confidence back.

I hope your calmer helps, but just to mention that a magnesium based calmer will only improve behaviour if your horse has a mag. deficiency.  The mag. calmers didn't work on our pony but a calcium based calmer did.  Look at the Equifeast range of different calmers, they are very helpful people if you ring them.  However, if you can sort out the physical and/or mental problems you may not need a calmer.

Good luck and keep us posted.


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## Tammytoo (19 February 2013)

Just to add - have you thought of clicker training?  It's very low key and excellent for building trust.


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## Pigeon (19 February 2013)

To be honest, calmer's won't make that much difference. They may take the edge off a very sharp horse, but they aren't going to change learnt behaviours.

I think we'd need to see a video of her behaviour on the lunge to rule out pain, but to me it just sounds like naughtiness  If she knows she can get away with avoiding work, of course she will! I would get a good instructor to lunge her a couple of times to assess her, and after that could you get the instructor, or an experienced friend, to stand with you while you lunge and advise you on how to prevent these behaviours?

The other problem is lots of lunging will increase her fitness, and this will mean she feels more exuberant and is more likely to play up! Lunging in walk in a pessoa would probably help to build her muscles without making her too fit and full of herself


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## Pigeon (19 February 2013)

Guinevere said:



			I hadn't thought about fear of people, that could be a fear of something someone has done to her in a school, as well as any possible back issues. I will definitely take her for some walks in hand and positively reinforce with treats. I have an enclosed school at my yard so that could be possible in future. Thank you xxx
		
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She doesn't sound nervous, more bolshy! Especially a cob x warmblood mare, you've got a potent mix there  Be firm but fair with her, and use your voice rather than treats for positive re-inforcement, as hand feeding a bolshy horse can make them worse! Like I said, video would be good


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## HeresHoping (19 February 2013)

QQ, has she actually been taught to lunge?  I ask because we have a 4 yo on our yard and I suggested some lunging once or twice a week in an equi ami to help with his balance.  

The owner put him in a bridle and roller, strode out to the school and then had an utter disaster.  Horse went berserk with all sorts of aerial aerobatics and flat out galloping round with head turned in. 

Transpires that the young lady who backed him had long reined but didn't believe in lunging.  She had only put him on the lunge once - with no one to walk around with him to demonstrate the circle - and he had panicked and gone mad so she hadn't tried again. Not quite sure what sort of long reining she had been doing, then, but we've had to teach him to lunge from the beginning.  He still panics a bit when his leader walks away from his head.  It's a very good example of just how much you need to be behind the shoulder to make the horse lead you.


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## wench (19 February 2013)

Luci07 said:



			Without trying to sound too unkind...why if you are nervous yourself, did you buy a horse that you have a long way to bring back into work and don't know how it will turn out? Is there more to this story? While it is lovely you are trying to help this horse why did you pick her?
		
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At least they are asking for advice... and admitting to their faults!


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## Guinevere (19 February 2013)

Thanks everyone I am on my phone at the moment but when I'm online on PC I will write out all of your points and answer them.

For now I will respond to the bit about my anxiety. That isn't horse related, it's everything related sadly and lack of confidence in everything. Was bed bound/house bound for a long time so personally everything is a challenge, but it helps in a way as I am always asking for help and double checking myself (even putting a saddle on!) having a horse is really helping with that as well as physically helping my body re adjust to life out of my bed. I've had m.e for 9 years and it has been crippling but I'm trying to take life "by the reins" as it were.

You didn't sound harsh, I am happy to explain any background to help my horse xxx


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## Guinevere (19 February 2013)

Luci07 - You didn't sound unkind and I'm happy to explain which I did in previous post but will add I chose her because when I rode her and watched her being ridden she gave me confidence, was calm and collected and didn't run away in the canter and was bombproof on the roads. She made me feel very safe and still does when ridden, purely in the school we have our issues, but then she has only been happy hacked for 6 months. I chose her because I thought she was right for me, she still can be but I know you cannot buy a "perfect horse" without putting the effort in, and I know I certainly would never sell her unless I thought she would have a better life with someone else. I am ALWAYS in livery and would never DIY because I am not experienced enough, I need professionals and guidance and will always have questions. I probably annoy everyone at the yard asking them to double check things for me but I want to be sure I get it right for a happy and healthy horse. Money is not an option for whatever she needs she will have, in material things but moreso professional help, and I know I need that more than her.

Tammytoo - In regard to injuries/pain like that who would I need to call to have that checked, anyone specific?
 I mentioned it to the vet which is when the calmer was recommended, he said to get a magnesium based one but will definitely bear that in mind and see how we go and whether to try a calcium one. She also is shaking her head after a trot which he said sounded more behavioural  or not being fit, than fully blown headshaking and to make a diary, try a net on her muzzle when riding and the calmer and to report back which I'm doing. She doesn't seem to do it when lunged, only the short rides previously but surprisingly not when I tried to buy.

Clicker training is something I do with my dogs and I'd wondered whether to try it with her, I have to do some research as I am not sure how to start with a horse. I have also considered having Sarah Fisher from Tellington T Touch to see if she can suggest anything, she is a friend and I've spoken to her about these issues I've had as well, so am trying to get as much experience as possible and advice from professionals.

Pigeon - Yes I think it she is very bolshy and is testing me to a degree, although I should make it clear I have not let her get away with it and have persisted. I have only lunged her once or twice by myself but I have always had someone with me to be sure I am doing it right. I apologise in advance if the whip is waving, I have tendonitis and I can't hold it straight but now have braces so will try again with another professional at my side, after the professional has started to lunge her regularly so she can get back into the swing of things. This is the only video I have so far but please point out anything I am doing wrong. I was being guided but added and she responded well to my vocal commands once she had got going.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZ6XvakmWUA

This is only one side, and only part was filmed, I should point this out in case people are concerned I haven't done it correctly.
I understand she will be much fitter and stronger but as a rider surprisingly I am much more confident than I am on the ground, I don't want to be one of those people however that only rides and doesn't do any work on the ground as I feel that she has had this before and is possibly why she's like this now. It is important to me to be able to do everything with my horse and not rely on anyone else but always having that backup for advice.

Regarding the pessoa, we were going to try that but apparently it's best if I now lunge her without and without a noseband as she is over extending? I was told this by the physio but am having another physio out for a second opinion to be sure everything I'm planning is right for her. She used to be lunged in a roller and side reins in her previous home but I don't think a lot, she was free schooled with jumps a lot which may be why she's funny to lunge because her previous owner gave up on it?

Hereshoping - I had thought that, or at least she has done very little especially in the last 6 months. Is this the way to go? I have been recommended to buy an Equiami by Natasha Baker when I was explaining my predicament. I am happy to do this, do you think it is still advisable with her over extension of the neck? I imagine this could be controlled in a pessoa/equiami?
If we need to go back to square one then that's what I'll do.

Thank you everyone for being so helpful and asking questions for more information, I am happy to answer anything. I am currently changing yards as I wasn't getting the help I needed and wanted there but I have chosen a new yard and they have much better facilities and also someone who is excited to work with novice partnerships thankfully! They have everything she needs and more and the experience to help me get her to where she and I both want to be. xxx


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## Guinevere (19 February 2013)

Photo added to show you how she was lunged in her previous home. I'm unsure how regularly this was done as most of the pictures I have are of her being free schooled xxx


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## clippi (19 February 2013)

The thing that struck me about that video (I didn't watch the whole thing) is the size of your circle, I would make it a lot bigger, she will find it easier to balance and you can push her on as her trot is looking really slugish


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## Guinevere (19 February 2013)

Thanks for your comment, will do that in future. It was the first time I'd ever lunged her so I think my confidence was to play a part in the pushing her on but will definitely rectify that, thank you! xxx


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## Tammytoo (19 February 2013)

I agree with Clippi about the size of the circle, she isn't tracking up when she trots (being a bit lazy) but she doesn't seem to be uncomfortable.  She's not really concentrating on you but seems more interested in the video maker, although she's not being naughty.  I suspect that you are not 100% in your own ability at the moment and worried about getting it wrong.  She is picking up on it and doing the minimum needed.  

I took my mare for a thorough lameness workup at the vet which included nerve blocks and x.rays to pinpoint the problem.  However, I really don't think your mare is in pain.

TT sounds a good idea and is something you can do yourself once you've been shown.  If you've done clicker traininng with your dogs I would think that you could use this really well on your horse - there are plenty of books around on clicker training forr horses.

Onwards and upwards!


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## mandwhy (19 February 2013)

She is a big lovely horse being asked to work on a circle that makes things a bit hard work, so basically she doesn't want to and if she can get away with not doing it then she will!

Some horses can be awkward to lunge, mine is and she is quite a dominant mare who can get very bolshy, so lunging is not really the place to start with her - she just finds it pointless and frustrating. I have come to realise that it can be really rather boring and our time is better spent elsewhere for now rather than trying to force it. Mine is quite a novice ride really apart from napping a lot, but she has some strong opinions about things she doesn't like doing so I'm planning to work round to those things rather than start with them.

I think it is great that you are getting a professional to show you, they will hopefully help you be able to do it by yourself.

I recommend taking her for walks in hand if you are able and she is not too bolshy about it, I take mine out on the roads for bombproofing and it has improved my confidence as well as hers. I had an accident off another horse so was nervous about what she might do. 

On a side note, I have also suffered from anxiety for years and agree horses can help a lot but they can also make you feel pretty bad! Have you tried hypnotherapy? I recently finished a course of it and I feel SO much better honestly. It hasn't completely gone away but I'm building on it. PM me if you like. My attitude when riding my horse is really different and I don't see death and doom around every corner, huzzah!


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## Guinevere (19 February 2013)

Thank you Tammytoo, I should add she may look lopsided as well as she was missing a back right shoe in this video, the previous owner had not replaced this, I had her done that evening after she had settled and that has helped but I am a real beginner so I can't see things like others can. Thank you again xxx


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## Guinevere (19 February 2013)

mandwhy - Thank you! I have often considered hynotherpay and have tried various avenues like counselling, CBT, medication but nothing has worked long term and I am currently without treatment. The best treatment has been getting Guin and having a reason to go out to muck her out and work with her.

Walking her sounds like a good idea, I broke my arm as a child riding and falling from a bolting horse but that hasn't put me off. I am scared of falling off but moreso I'm petrefied of doing something wrong as you can probably tell from my posts 

I will look into the hynotherapy and perhaps for the horse aspect some confidence boosting maybe on other horses as well. I am a born again rider after about 15 years (I'm 25 this year but spent most of my early life in the saddle) and whereas I used to get on with things as a child, I am more questioning about how I do things now with horses and every day life.

I want what's best for both of us but I am also not one to give up so I will try everything I can and have no intention of getting rid because she's not for a novice at the moment. These people are there for you to help if you ask, and I find it quite easy to ask, so that's a start I guess!! xxx


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## Brightbay (19 February 2013)

I was going to suggest clicker training too - great way for the horse to build up pleasant associations with you being there and asking them to do things, makes them really motivated to please you, and at the same time allows you to train good behaviour in a nice, low key, non stressful way so that your own confidence is built up.

Shawna Karrasch is a good starting point, and is doing some "intro to clicker" topics on her blog at the moment  http://shawnakarrasch.com/blog/2013...-off-to-the-right-start-for-clicker-training/

Alternatively, have a look at Hannah Dawson, who's UK based and does lots of fun stuff: http://www.hannahdawsonequine.co.uk/


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## Guinevere (19 February 2013)

Thank you brightbay, she is learning to "kiss" while I can't ride her and do much with her, haha! That's about as far as I've got but I will definitely look at those links and do something a bit more educational for her xxx


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## Kat (19 February 2013)

I'm intrigued to know why you would buy a horse with so many issues as a first horse, especially if you are not an experienced and confident horse person.

Where did you get her from and what explanation was given regarding her issues and problems? 

Have you had her checked by a vet or just a back person? I would strongly suggest getting the vet out if you haven't already. 

In the meantime, try other ground work to get her exercising without lunging. Some horses just don't lunge. I used to know one who was a super schoolmaster, suitable to be ridden by total beginners but also capable of some decent dressage, lovely nature etc who was positively dangerous to lunge. He'd do anything else but wouldn't lunge, despite years with lots of very experienced people on hand he never was safe to lunge (whether you used lunging aids, or had a leader or even a rider). You could work her in hand, just taking her for walks in the school at first, and maybe asking her to back up or move over and building up to more demanding work, such as trotting up in hand, poles, working around hazards (walking over a tarp etc) and even lateral work. You could try long reining (get someone experienced to try this first) and if she long reins well she might eventually lunge on two reins. You can try free schooling and walking out in hand when you are more confident but stay safe. 

I would also suggest that you look at her feed and turnout routine to see whether there is anything else you can do to try and keep a lid on her behaviour. In terms of her back I would have thought as much turnout as possible would be beneficial (and will also be good for her behaviour) I would also feed from the floor as much as possible so that the muscles are being stretched. Feed wise I would cut out anything heating and give her just a token feed with a vitamin suppliment in, be careful to keep it low sugar, low starch and and fibre based. Feeding a magnesium suppliment might help a little but is worth a try as it is pretty inexpensive and unlikely to do any harm fed at the recommended levels.


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## Guinevere (19 February 2013)

I was lied to by the person selling her on several counts, so I didn't expect it at all. This was her advert:

" 16.3hh 6 yr old tri coloured mare. Warmblood/cob cross. Super young horse, sensible and talented, the sort hard to find. Would carry any member of the family hacking safely. Good to hunt, showing great paces for dressage, scopey jump, would event. Good in traffic, load, clip and shoe, can be handled by a small child. Super well rounded young horse ready for a specific discipline or to be a great family all rounder. Snaffle mouth at all times. Will go first or last or stand and wait whilst others go for a gallop. Only for sale as her owner has joined family in Australia "

We weren't told so had no explanations but I have since managed to get some info from her owner in Australia.

My new yard are tailoring a routine to her needs which is very helpful as well as her feed. There are a lot of very experienced people there and I will be able to get more help there which is the main reason I am moving.

They will obviously assess her themselves and I am booking another physio as afore mentioned for a second opinion, the vet will see her again when she is settled in her new home, and then obviously the saddle fitter when the time comes. I may even ask the physio to come out before and after her new routine so that she has a good idea of her development and what she needs and is ready for at each stage xxx


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## Guinevere (19 February 2013)

To add the physio is ACPAT registered xxx


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## Kat (19 February 2013)

Guinevere said:



			I was lied to by the person selling her on several counts, so I didn't expect it at all. This was her advert:

" 16.3hh 6 yr old tri coloured mare. Warmblood/cob cross. Super young horse, sensible and talented, the sort hard to find. Would carry any member of the family hacking safely. Good to hunt, showing great paces for dressage, scopey jump, would event. Good in traffic, load, clip and shoe, can be handled by a small child. Super well rounded young horse ready for a specific discipline or to be a great family all rounder. Snaffle mouth at all times. Will go first or last or stand and wait whilst others go for a gallop. Only for sale as her owner has joined family in Australia "

We weren't told so had no explanations but I have since managed to get some info from her owner in Australia.

My new yard are tailoring a routine to her needs which is very helpful as well as her feed. There are a lot of very experienced people there and I will be able to get more help there which is the main reason I am moving.

They will obviously assess her themselves and I am booking another physio as afore mentioned for a second opinion, the vet will see her again when she is settled in her new home, and then obviously the saddle fitter when the time comes. I may even ask the physio to come out before and after her new routine so that she has a good idea of her development and what she needs and is ready for at each stage xxx
		
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I thought there would be a back story, you didn't sound like someone who would overhorse themselves, so I thought there must be a bit more to it. 

Did you have her vetted on purchase? Did the issues show up? I'm wondering whether you have been let down or misled and might have some recourse. It must be very expensive for you. 

Has the previous owner shed much light on things for you? 

I would make sure the yard do cut her feed right down and give her maximum turnout. They sound good but people have different ideas and some people believe some funny things, you don't want to find that she has been fed something really heating because someone's feeding knowledge is out of date or inaccurate. I had some shockingly bad advice from a feed company nutritionist and if they can get it so wrong you can understand why a busy YO or groom might too. Something simple like not realising that a certain chaff is mollassed could make a big difference. 

Keep an eye on things, ask lots of questions and do your own research. Educate yourself, it will help your confidence no end as well as helping your horse. You sound like a good owner determined to do the best for their horse, trust yourself, I'm relatively new to ownership too and I found several times I asked questions about something i wasn't sure about and was given "duff information". Not by someone intentionally misleading me or being stupid, just being a bit out of date or not quite fully informed. Always take the advice, ask questions so you understand the reasoning, say you will think about it then do your own research before deciding for sure. Your horse will thank you for it.


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## Kat (19 February 2013)

Oh and this place is a brilliant resource. It is really easy to get a great spectrum of unbiased opinion and to check real life advice. I have had some fantastic advice from this place, it is worth putting up with some of the scary/judgemental stuff for the good it has to offer.


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## Guinevere (19 February 2013)

Won't comment too much on it as am pursuing it but we were not told anything by the people who were selling her on behalf of the owner and she seemed great on the day but I know they knew these things, now. Just to sell her.

Her current diet is morning and night:

a handful of garlic
a scoop of alfa oil
half a scoop of pasture mix (morning, not night)
half a scoop of spillers conditioning cubes
half a cup of soya oil

I have since researched that a leisure horse should not be on so much soya oil thanks to a post by horse and hound and I am considering a swap to sunflower oil. She has been on this while I haven't done anything with her which is concerning as I didn't know the soya oil could make her a bit exuberant which I have since found out.

I haven't moved her to my new yard yet but they have suggested alterations and also for her up in exercise. She will be turned out every day but come in for night, she suffers from sweet itch too which was why this was recommended.

The new yard feeds hifi I believe and have also suggested reconsidering the soya oil and doing some research into it, which is what prompted me. I feel bad for not doing this myself because I research everything the dogs I have eat and take in but sometimes you trust people in authority to tell you what is best and take it as law which I know I shouldn't. Could you make any suggestions to her diet? She will also be starting on 30 of the Blue Chip calmer but I have also been told to try her up to as much as 50. I have emailed the company to ask about that as I don't want to knock her out if it is effective xxx


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## Guinevere (19 February 2013)

Kat said:



			Oh and this place is a brilliant resource. It is really easy to get a great spectrum of unbiased opinion and to check real life advice. I have had some fantastic advice from this place, it is worth putting up with some of the scary/judgemental stuff for the good it has to offer.
		
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I must admit I was a bit scared I would be hounded but I must assure everyone I will not be offended by help and advice, that is why I am here and I want to question things with the correct research and advice from a range of sources, so thank you xxx


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## clippi (19 February 2013)

I would knock out the conditioning cubes. 
In fact I would look at knocking out all extra feeds. Does she really need it?
Maybe a bit of chaff to hide her calmer in


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## Guinevere (19 February 2013)

Thanks Clippi, I believe the diet she could have provided there (I'm used to buying my own) would be 1 scoop "Chaff", upto half scoop "Leisure Mix" and upto half scoop "Sugar Beet" twice a day. Should I edit that in any way and why? xxx


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## Kat (19 February 2013)

Guinevere said:



			Won't comment too much on it as am pursuing it but we were not told anything by the people who were selling her on behalf of the owner and she seemed great on the day but I know they knew these things, now. Just to sell her.

Her current diet is morning and night:

a handful of garlic
a scoop of alfa oil
half a scoop of pasture mix (morning, not night)
half a scoop of spillers conditioning cubes
half a cup of soya oil

I have since researched that a leisure horse should not be on so much soya oil thanks to a post by horse and hound and I am considering a swap to sunflower oil. She has been on this while I haven't done anything with her which is concerning as I didn't know the soya oil could make her a bit exuberant which I have since found out.

I haven't moved her to my new yard yet but they have suggested alterations and also for her up in exercise. She will be turned out every day but come in for night, she suffers from sweet itch too which was why this was recommended.

The new yard feeds hifi I believe and have also suggested reconsidering the soya oil and doing some research into it, which is what prompted me. I feel bad for not doing this myself because I research everything the dogs I have eat and take in but sometimes you trust people in authority to tell you what is best and take it as law which I know I shouldn't. Could you make any suggestions to her diet? She will also be starting on 30 of the Blue Chip calmer but I have also been told to try her up to as much as 50. I have emailed the company to ask about that as I don't want to knock her out if it is effective xxx
		
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I'm no feed expert but I might have a few suggestions. You might be best posting in the feed section though. 

How is her weight? 

Rather than feeding the soya oil, or the sunflower oil I would use micronised linseed. I used to use sunflower oil but switched after lots of research, linseed can be used to put on weight like oil but has other benefits, in particular the balance of omega 3 and omega 6 is spot on for horses. 

I think your current diet sounds very full of energy for the work your horse is getting. I would cut it right back so she doesn't get any more energy than she needs. Mine works 5 or 6 days a week and that is either 40 mins schooling or 1.5 - 2 hours hacking and does this just on haylage, unmollassed beet, linseed and a vitamin suppliment. She isn't a good doer either. 

I would be wary of the Alfa A Oil, some horses react badly to Alfalfa so I would try cutting it out and seeing whether things improve.  

The conditioning cubes and the pasture mix also sound a bit heating to me. 

I see the yard feed dengie feeds - their nutritionist gave me some really duff information - don't trust them. Some of their products are fairly low calorie but I think most if not all contain alfalfa. 

If it were me I'd either stop giving her a hard feed or swap to something really low sugar and low starch in low quantities. The grass will be coming through soon so she will get a boost from than and as a cob x wb I bet she is a pretty good doer, with no ridden work I wouldn't expect her to need anything more than hay/haylage and grass. 

Rather than the blue chip calmer look at cheaper magnesium suppliments, they will do the same job. I used equine america magnitude for a while which is pretty reasonable but now I use Pro-Earth's magnesium suppliment and that is even cheaper still, and is delivered to your door.


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## Kat (19 February 2013)

Guinevere said:



			Thanks Clippi, I believe the diet she could have provided there (I'm used to buying my own) would be 1 scoop "Chaff", upto half scoop "Leisure Mix" and upto half scoop "Sugar Beet" twice a day. Should I edit that in any way and why? xxx
		
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If the sugar beet is unmollassed use that to hide some magnesium and a vitamin suppliment in. If not buy your own, it is pretty cheap. I'd avoid the leisure mix, and see what the chaff is, it can be ok but it can also be awful sugary rubbish. You don't need chaff though, it is just a filler really.


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## Guinevere (19 February 2013)

For reference, these were taken a few weeks ago, I took them so I could see her changes and for places like this for advice from all angles:






















Thanks Kat, I will definitely do some research on that. I was put off of haylage after being told it could make her fizzy too? I probably should ask all of this in the feed section, I had made a post on soya oil there earlier xxx


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## Guinevere (19 February 2013)

P.S. what vit supplement would you recommend? I have no idea where to begin with them and was worrying I'd choose something that was expensive and didn't help her. Again sorry for posting this not in the food section. Money not an issue but don't want to give her something pointless xxx


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## clippi (19 February 2013)

If she is going to be fed as it is part of the livery, I would start with unmolassed chaff and maybe a bit of unmolassed beet, and see how she goes.
It can take a couple of weeks for feeds to get out of their system.
The reason I would avoid any mixes is because they usually contain some sort of cereal which some horses can find heating


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## Guinevere (19 February 2013)

Thank you Clippi, I will write this down and discuss it with them before she arrives xxx


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## Pigeon (19 February 2013)

What a lovely looking horse  Very unusual markings!

I agree, bigger circle, and whip should be used less (I don't mean that you're beating her with it haha, more that she's gotten used to it so when you do swish it at her it doesn't have much effect).  Try and get a more forward trot. You don't need to stay on a circle, you can move towards her hindquarters (at a safe distance) to effectively drive her forwards. Have you tried lunging over poles? That might give you both something to focus on.


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## Tiffany (19 February 2013)

Sorry not read all posts. Is she on same diet now or have you changed it since you got her?

Rather than lunging, if she's good to handle you could start by walking her round the school and every so often stop and if she stops give her a pat and tell her she's a good girl then walk on again. When you feel confident and she's stopping when you do you could try and few strides of trot. This should help build your confidence and build her trust in you. 

She looks a lovely mare and hopefully with time, you'll build a strong relationship together.


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## Kat (19 February 2013)

Aww what a cute face. 

Vitamin suppliment wise, I use pro-hoof from progressive earth. They do a cheaper one called pro-balance. I like their products as they don't contain extras and you pay for the minerals and nothing else. Find them on eBay.


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## Guinevere (20 February 2013)

Just an update to say I've purchased an EquiAmi to help lungeing as she is far more comfortable in a roller and side reins seemingly. Also following the diet change and calmer has arrived. Thanks all for your help xxx


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## celticmolly (20 February 2013)

Just a thought regarding deciding on a suitable ration - there is a really good (free) on-line equine nutrition course running at the moment. We're in week 4 of the 5 week course, but I believe that you can still register and participate. It's delivered by staff at the University of Edinburgh. I am finding it really informative, especially as my lovely little mare is insulin-resistant.
Best of luck with your new girl


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## Guinevere (20 February 2013)

That sounds great! Thanks Celticmolly xxx


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## Booboos (21 February 2013)

She is a gorgeous looking horse and I am sure that underneath the problems she has a lovely personality, however I am going to be very honest with you as someone who was also sold a very unsuitable first horse by unscrupulous sellers. She is not suitable for you. I think you know that because your OP pretty much says so, but 'knowing' it and knowing it are two different things because we are all horse lovers and we buy horses because we want to care for them and build a bond with them and keep them for life.

Sometimes it's not possible.

Realistically you have two options. 
Sell her: this won't be easy because you sound like an honest person who would disclose her problems, so finding her a good home will be tough. She's the kind of horse whose problems might be disguised so there is always the worry that someone will do just that for a quick profit.

Get her re-schooled: get an experienced equine vet to give her the all clear and send her to reputable professional to assess and re-school her. JanetGeorge on here has an excellent reputation and has helped a lot of members, but equally if you post asking for recommendations I am sure there will be other choices. This is neither an easy, short or cheap option but at the end of it you should have a better adjusted horse. You can then decide if she's the horse for you or whether it's best to find her a new home which should be a lot easier at that stage.


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## Kat (21 February 2013)

Booboos said:



			She is a gorgeous looking horse and I am sure that underneath the problems she has a lovely personality, however I am going to be very honest with you as someone who was also sold a very unsuitable first horse by unscrupulous sellers. She is not suitable for you. I think you know that because your OP pretty much says so, but 'knowing' it and knowing it are two different things because we are all horse lovers and we buy horses because we want to care for them and build a bond with them and keep them for life.

Sometimes it's not possible.

Realistically you have two options. 
Sell her: this won't be easy because you sound like an honest person who would disclose her problems, so finding her a good home will be tough. She's the kind of horse whose problems might be disguised so there is always the worry that someone will do just that for a quick profit.

Get her re-schooled: get an experienced equine vet to give her the all clear and send her to reputable professional to assess and re-school her. JanetGeorge on here has an excellent reputation and has helped a lot of members, but equally if you post asking for recommendations I am sure there will be other choices. This is neither an easy, short or cheap option but at the end of it you should have a better adjusted horse. You can then decide if she's the horse for you or whether it's best to find her a new home which should be a lot easier at that stage.
		
Click to expand...

Very sound advice, but I think the OP has already moved to a full livery yard where there are staff who can work the horse for her and provide her with help, which may well be enough to get them on track. If her issues are more major then sending away for schooling with someone experienced in problem horses might be a good plan.


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## wench (21 February 2013)

Isn't there a difference in this post and the "dream pony" post above!!!


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## Booboos (21 February 2013)

Kat said:



			Very sound advice, but I think the OP has already moved to a full livery yard where there are staff who can work the horse for her and provide her with help, which may well be enough to get them on track. If her issues are more major then sending away for schooling with someone experienced in problem horses might be a good plan.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry I didn't spot that, hopefully it will be enough!

Perhaps the new yard have helped a bit with the lunging but if you are still looking for pointers OP, I would:
- try to lunge off a caveson not a headcollar
- if you can hold the lunge rein like an actual rein, i.e. arm bent at the elbow, wrist straight, thumb on top
- don't walk a little circle with her, it just means she is never turning and is always escaping from the shoulder. Obviously you need to move your feet enough to turn around but stay on the spot - at first this will feel really bad as she will pull but then use the stick to really send her forward
- still think from leg (whip) to hand and half halt to get a bit of a connection in her work, she can still be engaged on the lunge.


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## MerrySherryRider (21 February 2013)

You've had lots of good advice, so I won't repeat any of it, I just wanted to say-

She's a lovely horse and quite honestly, I think you're being too hard on yourself. The early months with a new horse are always a steep learning curve but you'll get there. 
 You're so open to seeking advice and have sought professional help all the way along, your mare is lucky to have you.

A regular routine, cutting out the hard feed and maxium turnout with company is a good idea.

Be Patient. Don't worry about your progress because quiet persistence wins in the end.

Despite not being an expert, heed your gut instincts. Listen to advice, but if it doesn't sit right with you, ignore the advice in the nicest possible way, because the only voice your horse has, is yours.


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## Kat (21 February 2013)

wench said:



			Isn't there a difference in this post and the "dream pony" post above!!!
		
Click to expand...

Ah man such a contrast! I went and read the dream pony thread after this post and  just 

So nice to read a post where the OP is calmly taking on board advice, and accepting that they don't know EVERYTHING. It gives you confidence that whatever happens the horse has probably landed on its feet. A bit like MrsB who was mis-sold the big chestnut.


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## Guinevere (21 February 2013)

Booboos - I just want to say thank you for the way you phrased your post, I completely understand where you are coming from and appreciate the way you phrased it so as to be honest but not come at me. As others have said I have always been in part livery and would never go it alone for my own safety as well as my horse's, I am not experienced at all and will always need help exercising her due to my disability and advice on food, what rugs to put on etc. I second guess myself a lot! I take your advice on board fully but I have no intention of selling her, I want to make things right for her and I believe with the professionals around me I can do that. They care for her 5 days a week, I come in to feed, muck out, take her out at weekends and then for now I am paying £10 a day to have her lunged every day by the professional. I will then see the physio and vet along the way to make sure we are on track before booking the saddle fitter, I would not book the fitter before they thought it ready. I have ridden her several times on hacks with no issues at all, and in the school with her standing still and bucking small bunny hops but that was in the previous owners saddle, the physio has said that this is very likely to improve with a new saddle. She was also ridden by another professional who had absolutely no issues with her, so maybe she knows I am a little anxious when on and is being stubborn for me. We will see and if neccessary I will go to confidence classes and let a professional reschool her in the saddle too before I get on in the school. She is extremely safe and a confidence giver on hacks and I haven't felt scared riding her in the school but obviously knowing she may buck a little and that she is a new horse is probably where my anxiety stems from.

On another note, I know JanetGeorge, I found my friend a job at her yard so I am happy to hear good things and know there is someone else around me if I need. Thank you for also adding that so that I can try different avenues with different people if I need to.

I will keep you posted! xxx


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## Guinevere (21 February 2013)

Horserider - Thank you for your comments, I am learning what advice is one to follow and one to question but as you know it will take me time. It's encouraging to hear the same recommendations made by several people which is where I begin my further research for example the food section. I am already putting that into action with reducing things that will help her mood and her sweet itch.

You would not be the first person to say I'm too hard on myself haha, I think that is every aspect of my life sadly but people have made good suggestions on sorting that too so I'd like to think in a year or so Guin and I together will be a new partnership and a happy one. Thank you xxx

For now here is a picture of Guin and I when she arrived, already I'm seeing some muscle building up but her back end is where we need to work most I think. You can't see much in this photo as it's very dark but this was the day she arrived, as you can see, I was happy to say the least! 

P.S you can also see how much her hoof had worn down  but a full set of shoes were replaced/added as soon as she came to me!


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## Booboos (21 February 2013)

I am so glad my post didn't come across as too negative! My intention was to be helpful but it's difficult to explain clearly over the internet!

It sounds like you are doing all the right things, and if she's fine on hacks then it's more likely a psychological issue that you can overcome with lessons and a bit of schooling if necessary.

My horses really like the Equiami, I hope it helps your girl as well!


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## celticmolly (21 February 2013)

Hello again Guinevere,
Just noticed your comment re mood and sweet itch.
We had a little welsh C/D mare on loan a couple of years ago. We gave her a herbal supplement, Dodson and Horrell's Itch-free, for her sweet itch, and it had the added bonus of calming her, too (as it contains chamomile). I know that some herbal remedies work for one horse and not another, but it might be worth a try.


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## siennamum (21 February 2013)

Can you get some lessons in ground work. It really helps your relationship and you and she will enjoy it and build your confidence. If you can find someone who would teach you, it is going to progress you both.

I would be really reluctant to lunge a young horse loads. Not sure if I have missed why it's neccessaary, but it is going to mke her frustrated, you would be better served having someone capable hack her a couple of times a week quietly in order to skip a few lunging days.

Finally I would stop all the food she is currently getting and change her to grass nuts, chaff and a supplement. If you think she needs a bit more condition then you could always add some sugarbeet, but the Spring Grass is going to come through soon and she will bulk up in no time. 

Feel free to ignore, but this is what I would recommend if you were on my yard.
NB. she is absolutely gorgeous.


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## Guinevere (25 February 2013)

Hi Siennamum, I can ride her with no problem it's ground work I am too weak to do. She can't be ridden at the moment and physio recommended lunging for a month as she has no muscle at all. She had an ill fitting saddle in previous home, all explained further back a few pages xxx


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## Guinevere (25 February 2013)

UPDATE - Hey all! Thought I would let you know that I've now moved yard and reduced her food intake and taken out the heating products. She has started the karma but after being looked at needs to put on a lot more weight as well as muscle so we will re access the oil she has and micronised linseed seems to be the one to go for. Vegetable was suggested but after research I was concerned by the additives.

She loaded well, with no fight, travelled well and got off as though she'd always been there. Had an hour in her new roomy stable and then was turned out individually next to others. I am extremely happy as is she!

Lunging starts tomorrow, without equiami to assess her so she doesn't get tangled and then will introduce. She is being lunged by the riding instructor who is very experienced so I will not be teaching her any bad habits! Also phoning new physio to book in who everyone has recommended.

Thanks all for your help, will continue to update you. I am extremely happy with the new yard and progress we've made even now. Xxx


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## Kat (25 February 2013)

Glad to hear a positive progress report, keep updating us, I can't wait to hear that you are back on board in a months time  x x


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## Guinevere (25 February 2013)

Thank you! Found the yard on here and everyone keeps telling me how lucky I am to get a space! Chorley equestrian in Shropshire. Will post some pics when on PC xxx


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## clippi (25 February 2013)

Glad the move went well. That place looks fab


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## Sallyfinn (25 February 2013)

Glad to hear things are looking up. I just wanted to share my story with you. 
I bought a "first horse" from a dealer who shall remain nameless. I, like you, had been out of riding for several years and wanted a confidence builder. The cob that I bought turned out to have several issues which had not been apparent when I bought him due to some creative selling. 
He was fab to hack but bucked constantly when asked to work in a school. I knew he had been in a riding school at some point in his past and had scars from rubbing ill fitting tack. I desperately wanted to keep him and work through the problems. I saw vets, riding instructors, physios, nutritionists and a behaviourist/trainer. I bought a new saddle after a lengthy fitting and tried everything I could think of. He turned out not to be in pain, but we didn't ever get past the bucking in the school. After 2 years I felt that trying to keep pushing him wasn't the right thing for either of us. He is now in a lovely home with lots of company and hacks out twice a week. He now has the home he needed and I now have a more suitable equine companion.

If it doesn't work out please don't feel that you have failed. There is a right horse for you and a right home for her even if they don't turn out to be one and the same.
Good luck


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## Luci07 (25 February 2013)

Well done!


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## mandwhy (25 February 2013)

Aww well done it sounds like things are on the up and the new yard will helps lots


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## Guinevere (26 February 2013)

Thanks everyone, really ill today I think the release of stress has finally gone a bit and it's all caught up with me. Feeling v positive about new yard and reschooling xxx


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## Pippity (26 February 2013)

It's amazing how you can keep pushing through and then, as soon as you can relax, the ME bites you in the bum!


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## Guinevere (26 February 2013)

Definitely Pippity! I've had it for 9 years. Horrible! The joint pain is the worst today but have flu from compromised immune system thanks to the stress  xxx


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## Pippity (26 February 2013)

I've had it for about the same - it's a complete bear, isn't it? I can cope with the pain, courtesy of vast amounts of ibuprofen/co-codamol, but I haven't found anything to treat the brainfog!

But the fact that you're able to cope with having a horse gives me hope that I'll be able to do the same one day!


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## Guinevere (26 February 2013)

Assisted livery is the way to go! Xxx


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## Booboos (26 February 2013)

That's great news (your progress with your girl, not the ME!!!)


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## Guinevere (26 February 2013)

Thanks Booboos, taken her feed right down but will be adding the micronised linseed and a vitamin supplement soon. The yard would just like to see how she gets on before we add anything new xxx


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## Guinevere (26 February 2013)

Well guess what! New yard and new routine = new horse!

Just heard from instructor and despite being very unfit she was no problem to lunge at all! Despite being really bad at previous yard. So happy! Going to watch on Sunday, tomorrow they're going to add a roller and work up to the equiami. She did some short canter on each rein but mainly walk and trot transitions. So happy! Xxx


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## clippi (26 February 2013)

So pleased that it is all working out well. Long may it continue


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## Guinevere (1 March 2013)

Will take more pics and a vid this weekend but look at her already, I was sent this pic of her today of her lungeing! She had been lunged without the EquiAmi by my yard owner and then progressed onto it. She's been using the EquiAmi for 3 days now and no problems still, she already looks more muscled to me! Can't wait to give her a big hug <3 Absolutely over the moon xxx


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## Guinevere (28 April 2013)

Hey guys! Well I thought I'd update you again and let you know how we're getting on. I'm now riding Guin!!!!! She is worked 6 days a week by our yard owner who has brought her on leaps and bounds and she doesn't buck anymore, rarely head shakes, and is much more manageable. Change of diet, routine, and regular exercise is really agreeing with her, so thankful to our new yard. She's on Oestress which has really calmed her down whereas the calmer we used before did nothing. Very happy, here's some pictures from today. We are continuing our work in the school and are both much happier. Long may it continue!


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## Meowy Catkin (28 April 2013)

lovely update.  I'm so glad that everything has worked out for you and Guin.


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## Guinevere (28 April 2013)

Thank you! I find it so hard to smile when riding because I'm trying not to squeal with joy and upset her but my heart is absolutely beaming and I do a little dance when I get off hehe xxx


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## TrasaM (28 April 2013)

Wonderful and really well done


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## MerrySherryRider (28 April 2013)

Thanks for updating. Its so nice to hear that things are going so well for you both. 

 Have to say that the credit for your progress is entirely yours. You took the trouble to get informed and took positive action, so many people just don't do that and end up not enjoying their hobby and have a miserable horse.

Your horse is very lucky to have an owner like you.


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## Nicnac (28 April 2013)

What a lovely update.  She looks fantastic - all credit to you persevering.  Lucky horse that she found you.


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## Guinevere (28 April 2013)

Thank you so much, I had been told by so many people to sell her but I just couldn't, I couldn't let her down as she'd been let down in the past. It has taken a good 4 months to get her to where she is now and she still has a long way to go (next week we introduce the whip to speed her up a little as she isn't responsive to the leg and goes at "Guin's pace" as we call it, but she is being ridden with a whip in hand with no contact at the moment to slowly introduce her to it to make sure tapping on the shoulder is comfortable for her and that she knows it's not a method of pain. I am planning on having her scoped when her ridden work is a bit futher along, for her headshaking, but it has dramatically decreased (sometimes none at all!) with regular exercise so it could potentially be fitness related so we'll see how we go. She isn't insured for head shaking now as the previous owners vet records showed us she'd had it since 2011 which isn't great, and they didn't tell us... but I don't care anymore, I've been upset about the untruths which mean't I couldn't make Guin happy, but the more she is worked and the firmer the routine is put in place, the happier she is and that is paramount to me <3 Thank you all for your support xxx


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## Tammytoo (28 April 2013)

You make a lovely picture together and I's so glad it has started to come together now.

Good luck for the future!


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## Megibo (28 April 2013)

Lovely update, long may it continue


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## clippi (28 April 2013)

That's a fab update. Well done for perservering


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## Guinevere (28 April 2013)

Thanks everyone, looking forward to riding again next week! Xxx


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## Pippity (28 April 2013)

I was only wondering the other day how the two of you were getting on - so glad to see that the answer is 'very well'!


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## scheherazade (30 April 2013)

What a lovely update. And such a lovely attitude too, your horse has really landed on her feet to find an owner like you. I really jope that everything works out well for your both and yoru partnership continues to grow. Good luck x


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## Guinevere (30 April 2013)

Thanks so much, there are times I felt like throwing the towel in but I thought she would face the same problems on future homes and how could I sell her in such a state? With the constant support of my Mum, the benefits of hard work are paying off in love and happiness from Guin and hopefully she continues to be happy, that's the most important thing <3 xxx


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