# Police shoot stray horse 19 times!



## 3DE (15 September 2010)

Found this article, and could not really believe it

http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/8389..._times/?ref=mr

copy below:
Police deny shooting Dunnington stray horse 19 times

9:09am Tuesday 14th September 2010

ANGRY villagers have claimed it took 19 shots by a police marksman to kill a stray horse at Dunnington, near York.
Several residents contacted The Press to complain yesterday after North Yorkshire Police said two horses were humanely destroyed on Sunday after breaking loose and running wild.
Pam Frankland claimed the scene as police chased one of the horses was like cowboys and Indians, and she was disgusted because 19 shots had to be fired before the animal died.
Another resident said the animal should have been tranquilised or captured instead, adding: Supposedly trained officers took 19 shots to kill it.
He said: They may as well have machine gunned the animal. There is real cruelty and incompetence there.
A third claimed the animal was first wounded in one leg, and then another before eventually being put down after 19 shots.
But a force spokesman, while admitting one horse had to be shot a number of times before it fell to the ground, while the other was destroyed quickly, denied as many as 19 shots were needed.
He said numerous methods of catching and controlling the horses were tried throughout the day, and officers received help from members of the public, farm workers and vets.
He said: However, all attempts proved unsuccessful as the horses were very wild and would not allow themselves to be approached.
He said every effort was made to avoid having to shoot the horses, but said: Ultimately public safety has to be the over-riding concern of the police. We simply could not risk the very real possibility of the horses causing a serious or even fatal road traffic collision.


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## millimoo (15 September 2010)

What an absolute disgrace by the Police..... just dreadful!
I just cannot believe they had to resort to shooting them - not in this day and age???


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## MissTyc (15 September 2010)

Are we in the wild west now or something?!


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## martlin (15 September 2010)

Mind boggles


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## Dovorian (15 September 2010)

Surely there must have been a better way -  darted by a decent marksman as one option? 

The press report says that they were 'wild', does that mean wild in a feral way, or extremely stressed and panicky. I just cannot believe they could be be coralled into a safe area, especially as they were obviously in a populated area and posing a risk to traffic and people.

Just awful for those who saw it.


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## BBH (15 September 2010)

http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/8391830.Police_shooting_of_stray_horses_defended_by_vet/?ref=mr


I'm even more shocked that attending vet left the scene having been told the horses were to be shot. IMO he should have remained in an advisory capacity if nothing else.

Very sad but I do understand you cannot have horses continually bolting across busy roads and it seems like other avenues had been tried to capture them but failed. I would question the eyesight of the cops though, 19 shots ???


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## Pipkin (15 September 2010)

What good does shooting them do?
Marksman and a dart surely would have sufficed, the poor ponies were obviously scared in the surroundings!


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## posie_honey (15 September 2010)

FGS - that is why i'd always call a local keeper or farmer to kill a wild animal humanely - the caliber ws probably too low to start with...


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## Orangehorse (15 September 2010)

What a scene that must have been.  What did they think they were doing.  Occasionally a cow escapes from a market and has to be shot to prevent a serious accident, but I have never heard that it takes 19 shots to kill it.

Presumably they must have either been too far away, the horses were moving around or they weren't using the right calibre gun.


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## spaniel (15 September 2010)

I think Id be questioning the recall of the witnesses too.....19 shots sounds like a number inflated by chinese whispers.  Its still disgusting however many it took to despatch these animals.  Police marksmen are trained to bring men down but shouldnt be using the same gung ho treatment on an animal....do they not know about head shots....Im sure that has made a big news story over the past few years???


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## perfect11s (15 September 2010)

why did'nt they practice on some criminals first!!!  useless  
Tossers...  half of them  cant drive  for toffee and oftern crash when chaseing crooks, now it seems they cant shoot straight...


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## Cedars (15 September 2010)

I'm going to wait and hear the police's side of this. Sounds a bit too much like chinese whispers...


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## 3DE (15 September 2010)

Here's an update and in the comments below there is some info from a witness who says that the horses were nowhere near a road when shot, but corralled on a private estate...

How the first horse was shot is horrific!

http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/8391830.Police_shooting_of_stray_horses_defended_by_vet/


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## Brownmare (15 September 2010)

Copied and pasted the comment by a witness, simply horrific:

kmt1977, York says...
10:02pm Tue 14 Sep 10

I have read the comments above and this ravman4 person maybe you should be shot eh, maybe in the same way and then see if you can comment, you don't even live in the town you idiot!

I am an experienced horseperson who has my horses on the estate where he horses where shot, here are some facts, afterall assumptions should not be made as we know in a court of law facts and evidence is cruical to any case. Not tit for tat comedy as you so comment you half wit, you obviously have the intelligence of some dragged up chav!

On the first day that these horses were loose the landowner and various people from the estate including myself contacted the police to inform them of the loose horses, they did not want to know, we contacted the RSPCA who again were not interested and said it was no responisibilty of theirs! again other animal welfare organisations were contacted with no help from nobody, we asked the police if they could ask a vet at to come and perhaps dart the horses so they could be moved safely to a field as the horses were frightened and who can blame them, the farmers daughter even went to see the horses owners who denyed ownership (the old chap had passed away and the horses let loose). On saturday I had almost caught one of the horse when 2 police officers came up shouting and carrying on scaring the horses and driving them up to the A1079. I was not pleased about this utter lack of common sense the police had shown, I asked them again if they could visit the owners and ask them to do something, which they seemed disinterested. I informed them then that there was not way in the world they would catch the horses if they carried on shouting and scaring the horses. I also asked them again if they could get a vet to come to stop the horses being injured by tranquilising them and to save an accident if the horses got onto the road. They informed me this couldn't be done due to the cost.

I wonder what the cost is of them coming out acting like they did on sunday, bullets, 4x4's, manpower etc over the cost of tranquilisers, far less I can tell you.

The horses shot were no where near the road and the police only did what they did as they were sick of phone calls and wanted rid of the situation, there was no danger to traffic as the horses were on a private estate. I understand the implications of if the horses got on the road and the risk of causing accidents, but should not have been dealt with in the way this has. There was no vet on site on sunday and no vet would have allowed for the police to continue in this way, There is no reason for the police to chase the horses with 4x4's, common sense with people with no knowledge of horses know's this is a ridulous idea and only causing more calamity. The police had not been there all day, they turned up at around 4.30pm, the first horse was shot, the second a chestnut pony which was not wild (just petrified) was chased around until it was shattered and could have been easily caught, to the police it was like fun target practice stood on top of their 4x4's like dukes of hazzard, one marksman shot the horses in its rear leg off above the hock, shattering the leg into pieces, the horses leg was hanging off, the horse got up in sheer distress, this horse must have been in absolute agony, then another markman shot its other front leg clean off, the horse still struggling about, then got shot another 19 times, the last shot in the horses head, some 25 mins after its back leg was shot to pieces. This is the actual account of this situation, so no, this horse nor was the other humanly killed, just a barbaric, cruel end for incident animals that should have never have happened and why was not tranquilizers tried first?? No one is answering that question, the police do not want you to hear this account and have tried to brush it under the carpet, two horses are left and need homes if anyone can offer anything I think, all of these horses have been through enough. The RSPCA are a discrace and not fit for our donations and do not actually care for animals. I have photograpic evidence of the dead horse showing its legs blown off and the endless bullet holes, this will not stop here, I will make sure everything is done to make sure the whole country is aware of this incident. If anyone can give a home to the other 2 horses get in touch with the press for my contact details. Thanks

BTW a later comment says the other horses have now found a home


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## Tormenta (15 September 2010)

Witness also says they have photographic proof of the incident and the chestnut pony who was apparently shot 19 times.  It doesn't make nice reading at all but I would like to first of all know that there is proof, if so, someone needs to answer why it would take 19 bullets and 25 minutes to euthanise one pony.


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## Rollin (15 September 2010)

Brownmare that is a horrific account of what happened.  I hope those who have complained won't let it go.

There should be an investigation.  IMO this is downright cruelty.


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## Cuffey (15 September 2010)

Disgusted

What happened to Emergency Services Protocol set up by BEVA and BHS to specifically prevent horses suffering due to lack of veterinary care in an emergency situation

How dare the policeman say ''cost'' was a problem when welfare is on the line

http://www.beva.org.uk/health-proje...otocol/information-for-the-emergency-services


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## HappyHorses:) (15 September 2010)

Absolutely disgusting. 

Shame on the police. I hope this is made public and doesn't just get covered up like all their other incompetences.


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## nettle (15 September 2010)

Bloody typical that the RSPCA didn't want to know.


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## aro (15 September 2010)

This has left me disgusted.  Why didn't they try to tranquilise the horses first? and why didn't the RSPCA want to know?  Surely they should have at least tried to help.  I have heard many bad things said about them before and have to say they are seriously going down in my estimation.  People have some serious questions to answer regarding the way this whole situation has been handled.  Those poor horses, can't even imagine the fear and pain they must have gone through.


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## Daffodil (16 September 2010)

First of all I have to admit I haven't read all the posts as I found them too distressing.   A speed read of Brownmare's detailed post has haunted me all night.

Surely to goodness this merits a formal complaint, if not prosecution for cruelty.  What the hell are our welfare laws for if this is allowed to happen.

Putting the horse involvement to one side, what the heck are the police up to, spraying bullets around the place like that.


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## Holly Hocks (16 September 2010)

I used to work as a civvie in the Police and my OH used to be a firearms response officer, however he is also a horse rider and horse lover.   I do generally support the Police in what they do  .  Believe me, when I saw some of the people they gave firearms to in my force, to be trained "shots", I had reason to be concerned.  I wouldn't have trusted them with a water pistol!  IF what happened is the truth, then there are a lot of concerns.  They can check the firearms used to see how many shots were fired.  If ever there was a reason NOT to arm all Police Officers then this is it.  Too many gung-ho thugs in there now, with no communication skills or common sense!


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## Daffodil (16 September 2010)

There's an article in The York News (www.yorkpress.co.uk) about this.

The vet's got some serious questions to answer too.  Suspect he'll be losing some clients.


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## Rollin (16 September 2010)

Should this forum compose and Open Letter to the Cheif Constable with a list of signatures?


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## Thisbe (16 September 2010)

grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr


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## ladyt25 (16 September 2010)

OMG!!! That is utterly disgusting. I read this at first and thought/assumed it was an american article - I didn't actually read the N Yorks bit and can't open the actual article but that is horrific. Surely they could have herded them into a nearby 'safe' field?? I hope there is an official complaint and investigation into this. there is absolutely NO need to shoot any stray horse surely. If they were 'wild' then a tranquiliser would surely have been enough if the horses truly could not be caught by other means??

Disgraceful


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## Sadiemay (16 September 2010)

I am absolutely sickened and disgusted by this, so much so last night I hardly slept for thinking about it.  

19 shots to finally put the animal down?  Two shots fired into the horses legs, shattering them?  *25 MINUTES* from 1st shot to last that finally ended this poor animals agony? 

And these are I take it are trained police firearms officers, then I have to ask what the hell were they playing at?! From the sound of the reports they didnt aim to shoot the horse and kill it immediately/a.s.a.p but more prolong its agony for entertainment/target practice for 25 minutes by gun happy idiots.

There is NO excuse for this animals 25 minute agonising death, none at all.

Does anyone know where or who I can complain to.  I am really really sickened and angry by this 

Sadiemay


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## Tormenta (16 September 2010)

Sadiemay said:



			I am absolutely sickened and disgusted by this, so much so last night I hardly slept for thinking about it.  

19 shots to finally put the animal down?  Two shots fired into the horses legs, shattering them?  *25 MINUTES* from 1st shot to last that finally ended this poor animals agony? 

And these are I take it are trained police firearms officers, then I have to ask what the hell were they playing at?! From the sound of the reports they didnt aim to shoot the horse and kill it immediately/a.s.a.p but more prolong its agony for entertainment/target practice for 25 minutes by gun happy idiots.
		
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It has been running through my head too that if these are our country's police marksmen then you wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of them taking you out!!  I also did wonder if they shot the poor pony's legs first to stop it running away....but that in itself does not explain why 19 bullets were needed and the length of time involved, I mean if they were accurate enough to hit two legs, why not a head shot?  

This just doesn't make sense to me, if the witness reports are accurate why on earth would they choose to do it this way and the only thing I keep coming up with is what you have stated above.


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## Amymay (16 September 2010)

Head shot or heart shot - it doesn't take a genius to work that one out.

Poor, poor creatures.


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## Over2You (16 September 2010)

Sadiemay said:



			I am absolutely sickened and disgusted by this, so much so last night I hardly slept for thinking about it.  

19 shots to finally put the animal down?  Two shots fired into the horses legs, shattering them?  *25 MINUTES* from 1st shot to last that finally ended this poor animals agony? 

And these are I take it are trained police firearms officers, then I have to ask what the hell were they playing at?! From the sound of the reports they didnt aim to shoot the horse and kill it immediately/a.s.a.p but more prolong its agony for entertainment/target practice for 25 minutes by gun happy idiots.

There is NO excuse for this animals 25 minute agonising death, none at all.

Does anyone know where or who I can complain to.  I am really really sickened and angry by this 

Sadiemay
		
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This has left me utterly shocked and appalled too. I e-mailed them last night and this is the response I got:

Good evening.

Thank you for your email and your comments. No person at North Yorkshire Police took this incident lightly and all decisions were made with the full cooperation, advice and backing of several experts including the RSPCA, Vets and tactical advisors. Most of which were at the scene and all were working together to resolve this incident.

These wild horses had already ran out in front of traffic on a major trunk road several times. The concequencies of a passing motorcyclist hitting such an animal does not bear thinking about.

The Police sometimes have to deal with and make unpopular decisions to resolve incidents to ensure the safety of the public, but I stress once again that this is never done without a thorough investigation and consultation process.

Kind regards

Paul Richardson 4603 
Team leader Band 4 
Force Control Room York, 
Fulford Road, 
York. YO10 4BY. 
08456060247 ex 1218 
07789995656 
Paul.Richardson4603@northyorkshire.pnn.police.uk 

More contact details can be found on: http://www.northyorkshire.police.uk/index.aspx?articleid=1002

I like how he stated the RSPCA - they didn't even want to know!! As for vets, I have lost track of how many times they've given out bad advice regarding animal behaviour. 

I am fuming at this!! R.I.P poor horses.


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## millimoo (16 September 2010)

I think this thread should be be sent to all the national papers...... i'd do it myself but i'm on Annual Leave, and staying away from my email for that reason.
Think the whole thing is a bl**dy disgrace.


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## Sadiemay (16 September 2010)

Thanks over2you for the contact details.  

I have just sent a very strongly worded email to Paul Richardson, asking for no bullshit answers on the points mentioned I mentioned in my post.

The thing that makes me feel so sickened that EVEN if they thought this was the only method of ending the crisis there is just no reason for it to have taken 25 minutes and so many bullets, there just isnt...FACT.

If the report is accurate then I can see no other way to view this other than they intentionally prolgonged this horses death and if that if is the case then those involved need to be brought to justice and punished accordingly....FACT.

Sadiemay


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## Daffodil (16 September 2010)

Millimoo:  I'm working on it


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## Amymay (16 September 2010)

Rollin said:



			Should this forum compose and Open Letter to the Cheif Constable with a list of signatures?
		
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Go for it.


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## PurplePickle (16 September 2010)

Im really astonished and disgusted. When we see umpteen rescue programs on TV any uncatchable ponies are darted , what was the excuse. Its not a raging rhino or lion.


RSPCA response, typical, I went right off that charity a long time ago. 

I really hope this isnt just brushed under the carpet and something is done about it, dreadful its 2010 for crying out loud!


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## TinselRider (16 September 2010)

Poor poor horses
It doesn't take a genius to work out that you need a head or heart shot to bring down such a large animal! to shoot it in the leg and leave the animal suffering is CRUELTY.

I am disgusted by the actions taken and answers given by the police


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## Daffodil (16 September 2010)

I have written to the editors of the Daily Mail, the Times and the Telegraph with links to the Yorks News and here, asking them to take this up and publicise it.

I've now had to read all the posts about this, and am distressed beyond belief.

Sickening


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## Ruddyreindeer (16 September 2010)

This is absolutely disgusting ! There is no excuse for shooting a 'wild' pony. How on earth do we capture our 'wild' New Forest ponies? I'm sure the agisters and commoners dont go around shooting all the 'difficult' ones.
How that poor creature must have suffered. I hope the RSPCA can sleep at night, knowing that yet again they failed to stop suffering. I would never contact them for any equine related incident, as they are totally lacking in knowledge regarding anything horsey.
This shooting must be brought to the publics attention, to ensure nothing like this ever happens again. Shame on you Police.


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## Holly Hocks (16 September 2010)

amymay said:



			Go for it.
		
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Yes I agree - a petition asking to know how many shots were actually fired from police marksmen in relation to this incident would be good. 
As previously stated my OH is a police officer and I have just informed him of this.  He is utterly horrified and disgusted.


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## snaptie (16 September 2010)

To compare, in several ways;

The officials in Churchill, Canada have an excellent yet simple method of managing polar bears straying into the town during the leaner months of winter. Strategic humane traps, sedation and a jail they are held in until it is time for them to move on, whereupon they are taken well away and set loose again. The people carry rifles but it is rare that they have to use them. Fatalities to humans do very occasionally happen and some bears are shot if they pose an active threat but this is rare due to the work put in by the personnel who work hard to keep both safe. 

Now, these horses/ponies shot, if not nineteen times, by all accounts still suffered an unneeded death over an extended number of minutes by very incompetent persons. These people who, in feeling safe in the large group appeared to revert to a base mentality whereupon it was deemed acceptable not only to refuse a much simpler solution of darting/sedation but to utilise excessive force for no clear reason. Psychologically they became sheep, but vicious ones. These are people who lose control, it is unbelievable albeit not at all unexpected they are being defended by their like. 

Well done to all who are bringing this to mainstream attention.

I dread to think what would happen if they were charged with restraining or capturing a human suspect. 

Again.


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## millimoo (16 September 2010)

Daffodil said:



			I have written to the editors of the Daily Mail, the Times and the Telegraph with links to the Yorks News and here, asking them to take this up and publicise it.

I've now had to read all the posts about this, and am distressed beyond belief.

Sickening
		
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Thanks Daffodil.... really hope they get it out there. 
Everyone i've told is absolutely horrified. 
If a kid with a rifle did that to a wild animal they would be prosecuted - it's just too awful to contemplate the suffering of these poor animals :-(


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## Nijinsky12 (16 September 2010)

Hi - I live in York & found out about this just yesterday - I have been asked for comment & quoted in the York Evening Press as saying this was appalling.  I immediately sent this story forward to the Daily Mail, the BHS, & the ILPH with a link to the York Press.  The carcasses have been disposed of, but the witness states there are photos - if anyone out there knows about these & can persuade the person to make this public, then this would help to press this home and prevent this kind of thing ever happening again.  As for the veterinary cover - a dereliction of duty I think.  Please keep sending this story forward and press for a full inquiry - the Police have said in the press today that there will be an investigation, keep the pressure on folks.


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## Daffodil (17 September 2010)

I'm surprised and puzzled that I've received no acknowledgement or follow up to my emails to any of the national newspapers I contacted yesterday, and have now sent them a chasing email with a copy of my original.

I have also emailed World Horse Welfare and the BHS of which I've been a gold member for 35 years.

I hope this is going to be followed up.


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## Nijinsky12 (17 September 2010)

I am also concerned that the national press have not yet picked up on this one.  There are ways to raise the profile of this incident if they do not.  The level of outrage needs to be made clear, by petition, by protest or by demonstration if necessary.
We need to achieve an end result which confirms a procedure for dealing with loose horses on the highway, one which does not, ever, involve pursuing horses with 4x4s and shooting at them.  We need to raise awareness of the current problematic situation where loose horses are shunted off road by the Police, only to re-appear later - We need an improvement to the protocol for dealing with horses in an emergency situation.  We need our veterinary surgeons to stick to the oath they take and put the welfare of the animals committed to their care FIRST.   We need a list, available to emergency services, of local personnel who can, and are willing, to act as handlers of horses in these types of situations - to offer advice and to be able to improvise to achieve a satisfactory outcome.  We need local pounds for horses who are lost, abandoned or the subjects of welfare action.   
If we all work together, this appalling incident may enable us to achieve some of the above and raise awareness of the other issues.


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## TallyHo123 (17 September 2010)

This is horrible. Baffles me how things like this continue to happen :s
Awful.


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## ladyt25 (17 September 2010)

There shouldn't have been ANY reason to shoot these horse AT ALL!!! They are not dangerous wild animals posing a threat to the public are they. This can not have been a last resort surely - what else had they tried?!!! It is absolutely appalling. I wish i had been there I would have bloody well got in the way. Makes you question what sort of people we have working in the policie force who though this was necessary.

They let criminals joy ride along roads at horrendous speeds who pose a real threat to the public - I haven't heard of police shooting them!!

The thought of what those poor horses went through and how certainly one suffered so horrendously makes me feel sick. I do not live far from York and I just can't get my head round how anyone agreed this was the only course of action that could be taken. how they couldn't have herded them into a field then maybe darted them i do not know - there is plenty of farmland/fields in the York area as far as I am aware, there must have been a nearby gate that could have been opened surely??


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## Rollin (17 September 2010)

Chief Constable for South Yorkshire is Meredydd Hughes who was appointed in Sept 2004.  His career included work as a Firearms Officer!!!

He was also Chair of Road policing Enforement Techinical Committee but resigned as a result of a speeding conviction.  He was given a 42 day driving ban on 5/12/2007.

His email address is meredydd.hughes@southyorks.pnn.police.uk


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## Nijinsky12 (17 September 2010)

OK - But York is North Yorkshire Police - the police response so far has been from headquarters at Fulford Road York.  Superintendent is Andy McMillan.


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## Rollin (17 September 2010)

Sorry someone earlier said South Yorks - I don't know your local geography.  

Someone post an email addresss for the right person please?


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## guido16 (17 September 2010)

Has anyone heard back from the BHS or ILPH?


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## Daffodil (17 September 2010)

I have heard nothing from any of the newspapers (after re-sending them my emails of yesterday), the BHS or World Horse Welfare.

I have given all of them my contact details.

Am now contemplating what to do next.    I can telephone them all but am currently in my office, so that will have to wait until tomorrow and I'm stewarding at a show all day.


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## Double_choc_lab (17 September 2010)

Just a random thought about raising the profile - anyone think of any TV programmes - my initial thought "Countryfile".  Could they investigate how stray animals are dealt with.?


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## DappledGrey (17 September 2010)

Double_choc_lab said:



			Just a random thought about raising the profile - anyone think of any TV programmes - my initial thought "Countryfile".  Could they investigate how stray animals are dealt with.?
		
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There's Look North news or possibly Horse & Country TV.

I'm following this story with interest as I don't live too far from the village and i'm utterly appalled by it all. Sadly police are great at cover-ups so how far we can take this is anyone's guess but count me in on any petitions/protests etc..

Has anyone created a facebook page on this? I have found that aweful website to have it uses when it comes to spreading the word!


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## Double_choc_lab (17 September 2010)

Good idea re facebook - I don't have an account but if someonen could open one up it's yet another avenue to raise awareness.


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## Nijinsky12 (17 September 2010)

YES - I have had a call from the ILPH and the BHS - they are both on the case.  I have just rung the Daily Mail and they are sending a reporter - so hope this is the start of national coverage....The local Animal Health are now aware and on the case - we need to find local witnesses and those photographs.


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## Nijinsky12 (17 September 2010)

I have sent it down to all the horse people I know on facebook - can someone get a site up and running ASAP..?


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## Daffodil (17 September 2010)

Brilliant.    Thank you.
Let's hope so.   
I also hope H&H will be running an article on this next week.


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## Nijinsky12 (17 September 2010)

Great re H&H - I sent them the transcript from the witness who posted in the York Evening Press - perhaps they will follow it up - there ARE more than one local witnesses, one of them is a farmer.


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## 3DE (17 September 2010)

Facebook page set up. Well setting it up... Will feedback when it's up and running...


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## 3DE (17 September 2010)

Inky_and_Sunny said:



			Facebook page set up. Well setting it up... Will feedback when it's up and running...
		
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It won't let me as I already have an account set up from this IP. Can anyone help?


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## competitiondiva (17 September 2010)

Stray/feral horses are always loose in the dudley, west midlands areas, they also represent public safety issues, but I am also aware of two particular cases where the rspca attended and darted them and safely transported them away.  I also realise that these resources are rare and not always easy to get hold of, but if they had been trying all day then I imagine someone could have attended to dart!!  I've seen marksmen get close enough to wild deer and dart or shoot them outright, so wonder why not in this case????

I've also heard of aggressive stray dogs have needed more than one shot, am am not against the use of lethal force if public safety is at risk.

My other question would be how reliable is the figure of 19? In the heat of it 9 shots could seem as horrific to someone caught up in the situation (witnessing) as 19.  So I would not bear too much weight on the arguement of that exact figure.


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## competitiondiva (17 September 2010)

I would also like to point out that a call regarding a stray horse on roads etc, is not initially the responsibility of the rspca (a charity whose officers already have too many calls to deal with) to deal, at that point it is the responsibility of the police to attend to secure public safety, hence the responce call to the witness who I assumed called due to them stating that the rspca couldn't be arsed!  At the point where the police were 'trying' to catch/contain/dart/shoot the police usually would have contacted the rspca.  Who do have darting officers but if these officers (baring in mind how few of them there are!) were unavailable to attend then there is very little the rspca could have done other than pay for a vet to attend, which it is already reported that a vet did attend, so how can people be slating the rspca, what for not having the resources available at a weekend to help????  That is a funding issue, not a can't be bothered issue!!!!

As said before I would query the 19 figure, but police records should have the correct amount, as each bullet fired should be recorded.

If the officers were shooting 'for' the legs then maybe they were only trained with people in mind where the mentality is non lethal shots aimed to stop the perpetrator, they may have thought legs could be fixed like dogs legs etc??? Just a thought??  

I do agree that this issue needs looking into, possibly a report to the rspca or police complaints commission???  The rspca took the case of the police dogs?  Again a thought?


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## Holly Hocks (18 September 2010)

competitiondiva said:



			If the officers were shooting 'for' the legs then maybe they were only trained with people in mind where the mentality is non lethal shots aimed to stop the perpetrator, they may have thought legs could be fixed like dogs legs etc??? Just a thought??  

QUOTE]

The Police are taught to "shoot to stop", not "shoot to injure".  They are taught to shoot in the chest - NEVER the legs or any other limb. They also practice on animal targets - specifically on bull's heads as they are the most likely animal to escape.  So they should have shot the horses directly in the head.  Basically, if they shot a human suspect in the legs, it is still considered that they are not safe and could still pick up and fire a weapon. The reason an ambulance is on standby in firearms situations is because when they have shot someone, they still have to try and save their life.   Police should have 100% been trying to shoot to kill the horses - they should not have been trying to injure it.  They were clearly poor shots and should not have been trusted with a water pistol.  I hope their firearms certificates are revoked and they are sent back dealing with children stealing sweets from the local shopping centre as they clearly are incapable of doing the job they are supposedly trained to do.
		
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## Nijinsky12 (18 September 2010)

For those who wanted the Police contact email - it is given on post number 30 with a link.  
I am local to this ghastly incident.  I agree with the comments about the number of shots fired - but frankly - if you even half nineteen and say 9 - it is still far too many.  I think the true number can only be proved by the hard evidence of the carcass - which has gone, the photographs - which have not yet surfaced - or the police records....which might take some time....?
Witnesses have come forward, but not to my knowledge the poster of the appalling eye-witness account - the other witnesses were apparently further away, but I have heard that the accounts are the same.
As far as I can ascertain, the horse was downed by the shots to its legs as it was part of a group which were fleeing in open country.
Two horses have definitely been shot dead - no question of that.
No vet or welfare present - fact.
Horses were not on the road - fact.
Horses had been out for days rather than hours - fact.
Horses were part of a much larger herd which had been sold by elderly widow of deceased.
Unbeknown to elderly widow some escaped during removal by unscrupulous  purchasers - widow very distressed.
Two horses are alive and caught - headcollars on - one, a mare, has injuries which are being professionally treated.
The Operation to shoot all the horses therefore failed by 50% - so two horses were not deemed a hazard and left running about...?
The RSPCA were involved to begin with - but gave up - fact
The vet regrettably left - fact.  So we have no qualified eyewitness account.
All in all a poor state of affairs and one from which lessons need to be learned.


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## Daffodil (20 September 2010)

Has there been any progress on this over the weekend.     

I've had no responses to ANY of my emails.


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## Nijinsky12 (20 September 2010)

NO.....!

I think that the Police investigation into their handling of this has stopped most journalism in its tracks.  It will then be weeks - if not months before they reach a conclusion, and by then they will hope it has all been forgotten about.


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## Amymay (20 September 2010)

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/article.php?aid=302026


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## SirenaXVI (20 September 2010)

I am sickened and disgusted, there is no excuse and there should be some sort of enquiry - I will sign any letter or petition and am about to email this person at NYP.

I cannot believe this has happened totally and utterly shocked


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## SirenaXVI (20 September 2010)

My email to Paul Richardson - I had to rewrite it several times as I was so so angry 


Dear Sir

I have read the eyewitness account of the shooting of these horses and I am absolutely disgusted with yourselves, the vet, and the RSPCA.  

I have several questions:

1)  Why did it take 19 shots to kill the chestnut pony and why was there 25 minutes between the first and the last shot?

2)  What threat did these horses cause when they were nowhere near a road and were in fact on a private estate?

3)  Why were the RSPCA not present at the time of the shootings?

4)  Why was THE VET not present at the time of the shootings?

These horses were NOT wild, they were unhandled and frightened - any experienced horseperson could have told you this and I am at a loss to understand why you did not consult one.  If you had contacted either the BHS or WHW they would have been pleased to assist you I am sure.  Instead your marksmen appear to have caused untold suffering through their own incompetance.

Please do not throw costs at me as an excuse, both of the above organisations would have provided help FREE OF CHARGE!  I fail to understand why you did not contact either of these charities for help.

I would normally be one of the first people to defend police action, but this has sickened me to the core and I know I am not the only one who feels this way.

I await your answers with interest.

Yours sincerely



Can't wait for his reply


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## Over2You (20 September 2010)

I sent the following on Friday in response to the pitiful reply I got:

Dear Mr. Richardson,

I have to disagree with just about everything you said. The RSPCA were contacted by one of the eyewitnesses, but did NOT want to know. If they responded to you, then I would not trust them as far as I could throw them. It was because of them that a man died in custody. See: http://www.cumberlandnews.co.uk/new...an-family-to-sue-rspca-1.740943?referrerPath= They also killed ten German Shepard dogs WITHOUT contacting any of the rescue organizations first. See: http://www.germanshepherdrescue.co.uk/gsd-shot-by-rspca.html As for vets, a good lot of them will recommend killing a perfectly animal, even if they have an easily corrected behavioural issue. I have seen dogs put on death row for simply barking at strangers. 

The horse were NOT wild. Just scared witless due to being chased by 4x4s and all your shouting and running about. 

Regarding the "danger" they posed to the public. Why could you not have closed the road or told drivers to drive slowly. Then again, you could not have possibly had motorists inconvenienced. That would have been a far greater crime than all the pain and terror you instilled into those poor horses.

I am still absolutely disgusted by this. 

Your force has a lot of questions to answer.

Their reply (also received on Friday):

Hello Ms Somerville.

In view of the concerns you have raised I have forwarded your e mail to officers within the York Safer Neighbourhood Team in order for them to possibly provide you with further information.

Unfortunately, as yet, I am not aware who is dealing with this matter so it may well take a few days for you to receive a reply.

Thank You

Nigel Mathers 
Team Leader 
North Yorkshire Police 
Force Control Room  
York. 
0845 6060247 

Will let you all know if that "further information" materializes.


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## millimoo (20 September 2010)

OMG, I cannot get over the lack of media coverage - it just feels like it's being swept under the carpet (thank god for those of you who've taken the time to get this out there).
I've just looked on Facebook to set up a group, however it states the following:

Note: groups that attack a specific person or group of people (e.g. racist, sexist, or other hate groups) will not be tolerated. Creating such a group will result in the immediate termination of your Facebook account

Whilst the majority will submit sensible comments, there's no way of monitoring content to ensure the administrator doesn't get barred - unless anyone's willing to take the risk (sadly I can't)
I'm currently toying with adding the Horse and Hound News link to British Dressage Northern Group and Horse and Hound Facebook pages - someone tell me it will be ok? (i'm such a wimp)

In the meantime I'll also follow up to the papers this week now I'm back in the office.

I'm baffled by the Daily Mail - they can report this news story, but not one about the Police shooting horses???

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...unt-gang-pushed-screws-apples-fed-horses.html


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## Over2You (20 September 2010)

millimoo said:



			OMG, I cannot get over the lack of media coverage - it just feels like it's being swept under the carpet (thank god for those of you who've taken the time to get this out there).
I've just looked on Facebook to set up a group, however it states the following:

Note: groups that attack a specific person or group of people (e.g. racist, sexist, or other hate groups) will not be tolerated. Creating such a group will result in the immediate termination of your Facebook account

Whilst the majority will submit sensible comments, there's no way of monitoring content to ensure the administrator doesn't get barred - unless anyone's willing to take the risk (sadly I can't)
I'm currently toying with adding the Horse and Hound News link to British Dressage Northern Group and Horse and Hound Facebook pages - someone tell me it will be ok? (i'm such a wimp)

In the meantime I'll also follow up to the papers this week now I'm back in the office.

I'm baffled by the Daily Mail - they can report this news story, but not one about the Police shooting horses???

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...unt-gang-pushed-screws-apples-fed-horses.html

Click to expand...

I agree that doing a dedicated group on Facebook might not be the best thing to do for the reasons you listed. However, I have come across a heck of a lot of "I Hate" groups aimed at the likes of the police and armed services. With more than colourful language to boot. You might get away with creating such groups, then again you might not. 

What about a free webpage, making sure the link is spread everywhere possible? That's probably the way to go in this situation.  

As for the Daily Mail article - it is good they've published it, but there might be some kind of media block (as suggested before) on this story.


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## Daffodil (21 September 2010)

I'm getting highly suspicious about the lack of publicity over this.   I rang the News Desk at the Daily Mail yesterday, after emailing them twice last week, and they said they were investigating it.      The DM is pretty quick on reporting things that happen to Cheryl Cole, why can't it act a bit quicker on this!   I also rang the BHS welfare department who said they'd get back to me today.   I'll wait and see.     I also spoke to (I think) Abigail Butcher at H&H, and I was told that depending on space and whether they judge if there's been a "hysterical reaction" and "one should be careful of the accuracy of some of these reports" (a view I can sympathise with) they may take this further.   At least there's now an item on the Online Edition.

I emailed WHW last week, and I've heard nothing since.

There is no doubt this incident took place, and whether it took 19 attempts or 2, to dispatch this horse the operation was carried out disgracefully, and don't let's forget the vet's part (or lack of) in this.


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## SirenaXVI (21 September 2010)

I have added the link to my facebook status, I too cannot believe the lack of coverage


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## Amymay (21 September 2010)

Abigail Butcher is not remotely interested in anything to do with animal welfare - _unless_ it's a big news story allready.........


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## Daffodil (21 September 2010)

I must say I got the impression it wasn't top of her priority list.

What's going on with this case?   Is it me or is there something "not right" about the media shut-down?


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## Amymay (21 September 2010)

Daffodil said:



			What's going on with this case?   Is it me or is there something "not right" about the media shut-down?
		
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Can't think there's any conspirocy - it's just not terribly newsworthy...... (although a hell of a stink was made during F&M when those sheep were used for target practice!)


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## Daffodil (21 September 2010)

Of course it's newsworthy!!


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## Amymay (21 September 2010)

Daffodil said:



			Of course it's newsworthy!!
		
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Well it is to us - but perhaps not to the wider public at this time..


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## happyhaffie (21 September 2010)

I will quite gladly add my name to any petition, to get the the bottom off this and hopefully the people responsible are held in account.

Perhaps if someone could post this thread in new lounge, I know I only look in latest news every now and then and its the first time ive heard of this

poor ponies I felt sick reading the eye witness account, the stress, fear and pain they must have been put through, im sure any local horse person could have dealt with this alot better, why didnt the police ask people who knew what they were doing to help rather than getting gun happy and what really sounds like they were taking pop shots... poor ponies RIP you poor little things


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## Nijinsky12 (21 September 2010)

It was certainly newsworthy here in York - the article received an unprecedented number of comments.   However, I think that once the Police have said they are investigating the matter all the media wait for the conclusion.  It is a shame that due to the circumstances of their escape, this sorry little group of horses had no-one to champion them on the day & now their fate may be consigned to the result of an internal Police inquiry.


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## Daffodil (21 September 2010)

Quite apart from the horror and agony suffered by those poor horses (something I try and put to the back of my mind, and which haunts me still) 
I really feel that this country needs to be aware that the police are now tending to shoot (incompetently) first and ask questions later.


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## millimoo (21 September 2010)

Well, looking at the stories of a dumped dog, and a horse who's apples were spiked with nails and screws - see my previous post for link, I think it's very odd that they won't report on this (if anything it's more news worthy)

I have also now contacted the Daily Mail, The Sun & the Telegraph. I've asked for a response to my mail, and will let you know if I here anything else.


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## Daffodil (21 September 2010)

Thank you, Millimoo.   Much appreciated.

Agree with you, this is odd.


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## SirenaXVI (21 September 2010)

Have also posted this in NL


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## lilly1 (21 September 2010)

http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/8389688.Police_deny_shooting_stray_horse_19_times/?ref=rss

A bit more on it.  Police deny it took 14 shots but do say it took one horse a long time to be bought down.


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## millimoo (21 September 2010)

I've now added this link to the British Dressage Forum to see if anyone has any further suggestions to get this better publicised.


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## Pidgeon (21 September 2010)

Just read this and am disgusted  Those poor poor horses


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## millimoo (21 September 2010)

Right, someone has suggested the Independant Police Complaints Commission.
I think this may have been mentioned in an earlier post, but it has to come from a witness to the event - has anyone on the forum got links to a witness (sorry if this has already been done).

http://www.ipcc.gov.uk/


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## hofvarpnir (21 September 2010)

Can I also suggest that concerned people directly email the North Yorkshire Police general enquiries address (general.enquiries@northyorkshire.pnn.police.uk) indicating your disgust at the way these horses were treated? I suggest you ask for your email to be passed to Superintendent Andy Mulligan who is coordinating an investigation into the incident- and don't be put off by a placatory email that may come your way shortly afterwards- insist the email is sent to the Superintendent for consideration. Let's demonstrate how much we deplore the way these animals were treated. Police forces are sensitive to Public Relations- they are public servants after all- and although we can't help those two horses we can make the police think twice before acting the same way in the future.

(also posted in the other thread on this topic)


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## Rollin (21 September 2010)

Daffodil said:



			Has there been any progress on this over the weekend.     

I've had no responses to ANY of my emails.
		
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I could not get an email address for the Chief Constable for North Yorks but did write to South Yorks, Chief Constable who replied within 24 hours and has now forwarded my email to Grahame Maxwell.

I have had a reply from North Yorks the case is being dealt with by the Professional Standards Department.


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## Nijinsky12 (22 September 2010)

lilly1 said:



http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/8389688.Police_deny_shooting_stray_horse_19_times/?ref=rss

A bit more on it.  Police deny it took 14 shots but do say it took one horse a long time to be bought down.
		
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Oh - so that's OK then..!

I can assure everyone that the populace of York are still fuming about this and doing their bit.


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## Tannis (22 September 2010)

Just a thought and absolutely no idea if this is possible but ..

given that all bullets have to be accounted for and given that all bullets cost money, isn't there any way the council tax paying public of whichever Yorkshire council, could request information on spent bullets (by date)?  That way, by looking at the financial aspect of it, it may be possible to determine just how many bullets were fired on the day in question.  Doesn't that sort of information have to be made public as part of public disclosure of public funding?

And if it is possible to get the information, maybe the national press would take more interest in mis-use of public funds rather than horse abuse??????  which in itself is a sad indictment on society.


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## Nijinsky12 (22 September 2010)

The Police have to keep a record of ammunition used, but there are sound witnesses, and in time the full story should surface.  The shutdown is largely due to the present inquiry.  The pressure needs to be kept on the Police to investigate this fully.  Apparently there was a similar incident near York when a little escaped bullock died in a hail of Police bullets - which was truly wicked.  This sort of behavior has to stop.


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## millimoo (22 September 2010)

Nijinsky12 said:



			Oh - so that's OK then..!

I can assure everyone that the populace of York are still fuming about this and doing their bit.


Click to expand...

In reference to the Post of to the News article, I have just read some of the eye witness accounts - see comments in the News thread at the bottom of the report.
http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/8389688.Police_deny_shooting_stray_horse_19_times/?ref=rss

2 seperate I.Ds refer to photographic evidence.
One is clearly the same person who posted the detailed eye witness report at the beginning of the post.
Does anyone know where these pictures are....... ??? surely the National Press would have the proof - all seems very wierd.
Nijinsky12, what are the locals doing and have they made any progress.
I've had zero response to any of the National papers - I am planning to ring tomorrow to get a verbal response from the papers I contacted if I can.


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## Daffodil (23 September 2010)

I had an email from Lee Hackett at the BHS yesterday saying that they are investigating this, and appear to having much the same difficulty in making contact with the authorities as the rest of us.   But he says "do please rest assured that we are very much involved in looking into it".    He also said they very much want to be involved in setting up procedures to make sure this never happens again.


Apart from this, no response from any of the newspapers or WHW.


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## Nijinsky12 (23 September 2010)

millimoo,
I was not a witness to the events and I do not know who took the photos - I only found out about this on the Tuesday after the event - too late to retrieve the carcasses.  Some horse owners in the area still do not know about this as it was only reported in the local evening press.  I do know that it will now take a long time for the Police to complete inquires, and until then the full story is unlikely to surface in print.  I do know that some of the witnesses have made official complaints and that they are not going to let this be brushed aside.  The complaints relate both to the decision made, the proceedures and the conduct/ability of individual officers.  The witnesses are supported by a network of farmers, horse owners and concerned members of the public.  I fear it will be a long road to the truth.  If these poor horses had been so cruelly dispatched by Joe Public the news would have been splattered across the media for all to see.  There is you see, a "procedure" for the perpetrators to hide behind, and hope it all goes away.......We cannot let this happen, we have a duty as horse owners to make these people account for their actions.  Indeed this should be done in the public interest - to retain any modicum of public confidence in those Police officers who have the special right to carry firearms.


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## Daffodil (23 September 2010)

N12:  Well said.    We mustn't let this get brushed aside, and I am still amazed and suspicious about the almost total media clamp-down on this, police enquiry or not.  I also want to know that the vet has been interviewed by his professional governing body.


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## millimoo (23 September 2010)

Nijinsky12 said:



			millimoo,
I was not a witness to the events and I do not know who took the photos - I only found out about this on the Tuesday after the event - too late to retrieve the carcasses.  Some horse owners in the area still do not know about this as it was only reported in the local evening press.  I do know that it will now take a long time for the Police to complete inquires, and until then the full story is unlikely to surface in print.  I do know that some of the witnesses have made official complaints and that they are not going to let this be brushed aside.  The complaints relate both to the decision made, the proceedures and the conduct/ability of individual officers.  The witnesses are supported by a network of farmers, horse owners and concerned members of the public.  I fear it will be a long road to the truth.  If these poor horses had been so cruelly dispatched by Joe Public the news would have been splattered across the media for all to see.  There is you see, a "procedure" for the perpetrators to hide behind, and hope it all goes away.......We cannot let this happen, we have a duty as horse owners to make these people account for their actions.  Indeed this should be done in the public interest - to retain any modicum of public confidence in those Police officers who have the special right to carry firearms.
		
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Thanks N12, sory if I sounded like you knew - I didn't word my last post very well, and was referring the another post in the thread that's also repeated as a comment item in the news article. Glad to know a lot of people are actively involved in ensuring this doesn't go away.
One of the British Dressage Members have sent a mail to BEVA, and they are also aware already.


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## Over2You (29 December 2010)

UPDATE:

I received this from Chief Superintendent Andy McMillan regarding the Incident at Dunnington on 12 September 2010.

"Thank you for contacting the Force in relation to your concerns relating to the shooting of
two horses at Dunnington on 12th September 2010. As a result of this I was commissioned to
review all facets of the incident. My review focused on the police tactics, partnership working
and lessons that could be learnt from this incident. I thought it may be helpful to forward to
you an outline of the reviews findings.

Having considered all of the facts of the incident, it is very clear from the reports from
members of the public and police officers at the scene that the public were in danger from
the horses straying onto nearby A and B roads. A number of attempts were made to corral
the horses and move them to a position where they would not pose a risk to the public.

On the day expert advice was taken from two specialist equine vets and the considered
decision was made that the horses posed a very real and serious threat to public safety,
particularly to those travelling on the nearby A1079.

The use of tranquilising darts was considered but ruled out as the distances involved and
the demeanour of the horses was such that it would not have been successful. Attempts
were made over several hours to resolve the matter without recourse to firearms, although
these attempts did not prove successful. It was therefore decided that the most viable way of
mitigating this risk was to destroy the horses.

The nature of the incident was such that this was an extremely difficult operation for rifle
officers to undertake. There was significant difficulty in gaining an appropriate sight picture
and backdrop whilst also ensuring public safety. Both the location of the incident and the
temperament of the horses made this an extremely difficult task. Due to the demeanour
of the first horse it was not possible for rifle officers to come closer than 300m, thus all but
three of the 18 shots were made at significant distance with a small sight picture of an animal
moving erratically and at speed.

After the first two shots, the first horse had not fallen to the ground so it became imperative to
despatch as soon as possible to prevent unnecessary suffering. This involved an additional
13 shots at distance, utilising the raised vantage point on the back of the police 4x4
vehicle to ensure the shots were fired downwards to maximise public safety. When officers
approached the fallen horse on foot it became apparent that it was still alive, so a further
three shots were used to ensure it was dead.

From the first shot to the last, less than five minutes elapsed with some of this time due to
officers having to cautiously approach the horse on foot as per relevant guidance.

In contrast, the second horse that was posing a danger was despatched instantly by
simultaneous shots fired by two police rifle officers.

Having carefully reviewed the facts surrounding this incident, I am content that relevant
Firearms Commanders, Firearms Officers and Firearms Tactical Advisor behaved in a
professional and competent manner in line with their training and associated national
guidance contained in The Manual of Guidance on the Management, Command and
Deployment of Armed Officers 2009 and The Humane Destruction of Animals by Police-
HOSDB ACPO Firearms July 1998.

Officers have been trained and refreshed in relevant skills and competencies as required.
The firearms and ammunitions used to destroy the horses were in line with guidance
contained within the Guidance on the Management, Command and Deployment of Armed
Officers 2009 and The Humane Destruction of Animals by Police- ACPO Firearms July
1998.

It is a matter of regret that it took 18 rounds to despatch one of the horses, however the
unique nature of the incident posed a number of significant difficulties. The location, the
demeanour of the horses, the failure of traditional resolutions and the significant risks to
public safety made this incident extremely difficult to resolve and firearms were only used by
officers as a last resort.

There are lessons to be learnt in relation to resolving such issues, which thankfully do not
occur frequently. Firearms training is being reviewed with a view to providing officers with
more information in relation to animal handling and behaviour, and we would like to work in
partnership with British Equine Veterinary Association (BEVA) to develop this. Police weapon
systems continue to be reviewed to ensure operational effectiveness. Force processes are
also being reviewed to ensure that we work more closely with our communities and partners
to resolve local problems.

Thank you for taking the time to contact the Force in relation to this matter and please be
reassured that we will continue to review and develop our operational policing responses in
relation to both this and other operational matters.

Yours sincerely

T/Chief Superintendent A McMillan
Director, Specialist Operations
01609 789030"

If this had been a member of the public, it would have been a completely different story. They would be up on charges of animal cruelty. But of course, their own can do no wrong.


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## VictoriaEDT (29 December 2010)

so he is content in the professional manner that this was dealt with? This is all horrendous.


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## gekko (30 December 2010)

They took unpleasnt but neccesary action to protect human lives and safety. It wasn't perfect. It wasn't nice. In a perfect world in could have been better.

It wasn't.
But it was necessary.

Deal with it, then join the rest on us on THIS planet when not everything is nice and cute and cuddly and perfect.


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## Auslander (30 December 2010)

Daffodil said:



			I'm surprised and puzzled that I've received no acknowledgement or follow up to my emails to any of the national newspapers I contacted yesterday, and have now sent them a chasing email with a copy of my original.

I have also emailed World Horse Welfare and the BHS of which I've been a gold member for 35 years.

I hope this is going to be followed up.
		
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Daffodil, I work in public relations, so deal with the national press on a daily basis. You're unlikely to get a response to an email sent on spec, especially to the editor. The main problem I can see is that this is no longer news (in the eyes of the dailies). If you want to pursue it though - You need to call the newsdesk and speak to a new reporter- they will pick up the story if they think it has mileage. You need to know what you're going to say, and have all the facts at your finger tips - they are incfredibly busy people, and have no time/tolerance for anything but straight, newsworthy information. Nationals are no fun to deal with !

I'll log onto my work system and dig out some numbers for you


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## 1stclassalan (30 December 2010)

If the average policeman gets a call about stray horses, his immediate reaction is to take steps - bloody great big ones in the opposite direction!

They know very little about animals at all and want to know even less.

And why is it that every cowboy gunman becomes a "Police Marksman" when in the blue uniform - oops I'm behind the times now eh? They're traded the old ones in for those snazzy combination flacksuits. 

You call 'em out - they'll shoot something. If this story is true ( and I have little doubt that it is ) these guys are evil and need their horizons broadened - Helmand will do.


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## 1stclassalan (30 December 2010)

gekko said:



			They took unpleasnt but neccesary action to protect human lives and safety. It wasn't perfect. It wasn't nice. In a perfect world in could have been better.

It wasn't.
But it was necessary.

Deal with it, then join the rest on us on THIS planet when not everything is nice and cute and cuddly and perfect.
		
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Dear Gekko - I do hope you made this post without reading all the stuff above - then there's just a slight slap on the wrist for posting without all the info - but if you actually read the way these ignorant trigger-happy so&so's behaved - just because they could - there are not sufficient words to censure!

The keyword here should be - proffessionalism. All the above points to the absolute lack of it.


Oh - and before anyone questions my bona fides - my Army uniform had two crossed rifles with a crown over them - I could give you half a mile start and still drop you.


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## pointergirl (30 December 2010)

Very upsetting article. Could not believe it and why are there horses running loose in the location mentioned. What are the RSPCA doing about it?


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## Holly Hocks (30 December 2010)

1stclassalan said:



			If the average policeman gets a call about stray horses, his immediate reaction is to take steps - bloody great big ones in the opposite direction!

They know very little about animals at all and want to know even less.

And why is it that every cowboy gunman becomes a "Police Marksman" when in the blue uniform - oops I'm behind the times now eh? They're traded the old ones in for those snazzy combination flacksuits. 

You call 'em out - they'll shoot something. If this story is true ( and I have little doubt that it is ) these guys are evil and need their horizons broadened - Helmand will do.
		
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Well I must assume that my OH is well above average - was previously a Police "Marksman" as you call it - Authorised Firearms Officer is the correct title if you would care to be so precise about everything else, perhaps you could be correct in your address.  
He has also no knowledge about the incident as he is in another force, but from what he has read, agrees that something has gone wrong and it should not have happened.  However he was not a "cowboy gunman", has not shot anyone and knows plenty about animals, particularly horses - and does not take steps in the opposite direction.  Do not tar them all with the same brush.


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## Dancing Queen (30 December 2010)

disgusting!
the police responsible should be stripped and sent back on the beat - to the beginning. awful display.


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## YorksG (31 December 2010)

Given the number of people in North Yorkshire (the police area concerned) who have the skill to shoot live animals in a clean and efficient manner, I am astounded that this was dealt with by firearms officers. The West Yorkshire force have called on a member of the public, within the last 12 months to despatch an injured horse as the local knackers firm was an hour away. The mare in question was beyond vetinary help, and was on a public road. The member of the public in question held a firearms license and was known locally as being capable of doing the dead in a quiet and efficient manner. I am still astonished that something similar was not done in the North Yorkshire case. I can think of, and name two people in that area that stalk and shoot deer, so surely they would have been better placed in this instance.


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## Dolcé (31 December 2010)

Lets face it FestiveG, they could have called on any number of local farmers who would have been able to do a better job!  I don't understand why darting wouldn't work, they have a licensed vet around 30 minutes away at Flamingoland. In the time they spent chasing the horses they could have built a smaller safe corral to herd them into, they could have called on any number of the local dealers who are used to dealing with unhandled animals and would have just herded them around to where they needed to be.  I think to be honest this is all down to lack of experience and knowledge of working with animals, how frightened must those horses have been to not get nearer that 300m to them, I could not imagine that!  I helped at a large dealers, who had fields full (almost 200) of mainly unhandled horses and ponies, we moved them around from area to area with no problem from just a few feet away.  I would imagine that NYP have plenty of officers in their own ranks that could have dealt with this efficiently and without loss of life but I doubt they thought to try and find who would be up to the task!

I can only hope that NYP have learned some major lessons from this incident!


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## perfect11s (31 December 2010)

This is about average for the police  it seems they can only catch the law abiding and easy targets!!  they pussyfoot  around when  strong and desive action is required, like the  Raul  Mote or Cumbria shootings, or a car chase where they allow said car to travel many miles endangering others  , and something that requires tact or a little brain they go in  hard and heavy like the  london solicitor or these  horses,  hopefully they have learnt from this mishandled cruel and  botched  opperation...


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## 1stclassalan (31 December 2010)

Holly Hocks said:



			Well I must assume that my OH is well above average - was previously a Police "Marksman" as you call it - Authorised Firearms Officer is the correct title if you would care to be so precise about everything else, perhaps you could be correct in your address.  
He has also no knowledge about the incident as he is in another force, but from what he has read, agrees that something has gone wrong and it should not have happened.  However he was not a "cowboy gunman", has not shot anyone and knows plenty about animals, particularly horses - and does not take steps in the opposite direction.  Do not tar them all with the same brush.
		
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HollyHocks, Maintain your cool, looking tall and lovely at the back of the border eh? Kindly note that I clearly posted "the average policeman" and that most certainly has been my experience when rescuing a fair number of other folk's strays over the years not to mention passing squad cars who thought it a good laugh to give me a blast of blues & twos when out on my old mare. My daughter lives with a police dog handler who is a very good sort of bloke so don't think that I'm having a go at police just for being police.

My reference to "cowboys" was specifically aimed ( a keener aim than they seem to have managed ) at the particular armed officers that turned up at the scene. ( I could nitpick again here as I don't suppose there was a true officer among them but the old term constable seems to have fallen by the wayside along with many other standards.)

Take a good long look at the proper Officer's letter above - littered with jargon and P.C.speak, public safety, background picture etc., etc., then admits that fire was opened at 300mts! Furthermore, he tries to say that killing the horses outright proved difficult - with ( Heckler & Koch? ) rifles - these are one of the most accurate and powerful weapons of their type so in my opinion he is turning a rather obnoxious episode into a Watergate cover-up.


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## Holly Hocks (31 December 2010)

1stclassalan said:



			HollyHocks, Maintain your cool, looking tall and lovely at the back of the border eh? Kindly note that I clearly posted "the average policeman" and that most certainly has been my experience when rescuing a fair number of other folk's strays over the years not to mention passing squad cars who thought it a good laugh to give me a blast of blues & twos when out on my old mare. My daughter lives with a police dog handler who is a very good sort of bloke so don't think that I'm having a go at police just for being police.

My reference to "cowboys" was specifically aimed ( a keener aim than they seem to have managed ) at the particular armed officers that turned up at the scene. ( I could nitpick again here as I don't suppose there was a true officer among them but the old term constable seems to have fallen by the wayside along with many other standards.)

Take a good long look at the proper Officer's letter above - littered with jargon and P.C.speak, public safety, background picture etc., etc., then admits that fire was opened at 300mts! Furthermore, he tries to say that killing the horses outright proved difficult - with ( Heckler & Koch? ) rifles - these are one of the most accurate and powerful weapons of their type so in my opinion he is turning a rather obnoxious episode into a Watergate cover-up.
		
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Point taken Alan.....I did read the letter and my OH also gets peed off with all the P.C speech and jargon - however he only has 16 months left til retirement, so is putting up with it til then and keeping his mouth shut - he is of the old school of policing.....and yes, he also finds it hard to believe that they couldn't get closer than 300 metres to the horses - unbelievable when you think that there are wild ponies in several areas of Britain and you can get close enough to touch most of them.....


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## Alec Swan (31 December 2010)

1stclassalan said:



			....... Take a good long look at the proper Officer's letter above - littered with jargon and P.C.speak, public safety, background picture etc., etc., then admits that fire was opened at 300mts! Furthermore, he tries to say that killing the horses outright proved difficult - with ( Heckler & Koch? ) rifles - these are one of the most accurate and powerful weapons.......
		
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I will accept that the offered,  and quoted letter was from a desk bound copper,  who was doing his level best to extricate himself,  and the force from what was,  in effect,  a serious cock up.  I would be staggered to hear that a vehicle'd approach couldn't be achieved within 300 meters.  I'd be similarly surprised to hear that they expended the amount of ammo,  which they've accepted.  

There are many points which we know nothing about.  We simply weren't there.  I don't know if armed POs are dished out with H&Ks,  and to be honest,  it's an irrelevance.  We know nothing of the cartridges with which they were issued,  and this probably isn't the place for a discussion on ballistics.

One point with which I will take issue,  is the question of "back ground".  Reading between the lines,  I would think that many of the shots fired,  failed to connect with their target.  "Back ground" is vital,  and this perhaps,  could have accounted for the shambles.  

As more information becomes available,  it would seem that there was a degree of serious error,  not just from those who were to dispatch the horses,  but importantly,  from their advisors.  

I'd be happy to go along with the post from Gekko,  with the proviso,  that ALL Police Forces learn a lesson from this catalogue of errors,  and which were of embarrassing proportions.  

Alec.


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## miss_bird (1 January 2011)

I have read all the posts above, and am shocked at the amout of miscalculation from the police force within this one incident.
The police will obviously just ognore this has happened now and will no doubt intent to train more officers to deal with an situation that arrises like this again but with just backs can they really justifly spending money on training officers to deal with large animals.
I am totally shocked that it took 18 shots to deal with one horse and i think that is complete disgrace, it makes my sick to think what that poor chestnut pony suffered.


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## samandcasper (1 January 2011)

that's utterly discrasfull (cant spell it lol)  reading the comment from the lady who was there and witnessed them having there legs blown of then 25 mins later dieing from a bullet to the head, actually made me cry as i sat here reading it and pictuered it :'( i hope somethings done about this, poxy *******ing police


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## tristar (1 January 2011)

how can anyone try to justify what these cruel Bxxxxxxds did? public safety my axse! the officers involved should be removed immediately from firearms duty locked up in jail, then prosecuted and put in prison for a very long time, i feel there is no excuse, no reason , are we supposed to be civilised or what? i make no appologies for these strong words, in fact i am at a loss as to how best express an opinion, are they dead from the neck up or something?


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## marinitagsd (1 January 2011)

Absolutely disgusting!!!


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## brighteyes (3 January 2011)

I know someone in the Halifax area who often is called to round up loose horses and ponies - usually of the 'travelling community variety',  They have had occasion to tranquillise at least one - and it is fraught with risk, but completely do-able.  I can't understand why, on this occasion, the horses couldn't be contained and traffic diverted.  I also wonder what caused them to gallop about madly in the first place.  Who owned the horses and what is to be done about THEM?


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## 1stclassalan (3 January 2011)

I'm just going to add a line or two about this business of "Background Picture" - now to ordinary folk this would be just plain background - two ponies standing in the foreground - everything behind them is background - or background picture if you're a police "marksman."

That background picture was one of the quoted reasons for standing on top of a 4x4 to open fire so that the bullets would travelling downwards.

Now, I ask you - just how downwards would that be - from 300 mtrs??? 

I'd also like to know what kind of sight these marksmen had fitted to the weapons - telescopic perhaps? 

I'm going to write to that police officer above and hopefully get some answers and will post his reply.


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## lagartijamick (6 January 2011)

Whole thing sounds more like the keystone cops to me.

According to the police response today "all but three of the 18 shots were made with the animal moving erratically and at speed. "
If someone was shooting at me I think I would be moveing erratically and at speed.
Sounds more like the wild west than North Yorkshire.


"They will also implement further rifle training." 
Sounds like they need a lot more training to me, either that or spec savers.


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## snaptie (7 January 2011)

Well of course they are going to spin it. There is no way they are going to hold their hands up and say they acted in the manner of sheep nor are they going to admit the cowardice of  their brave personnel being actually so fearful of a crippled and downed horse they bandied around taking potshots at it. In a group. From quite a distance. 

Its impossible to think anyone of them will admit the mental and psychological weaknesses that have clearly been shown via and following this disgraceful incident. 

Its a guarantee all you will get is spurious waffle and it will soon be swept under the carpet, like so many other incidences.

Typical though the last lines of my top paragraph may be applied to any band of bullies.


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