# Clifton Promise tests + for banned substance post Burghley



## Que Sera (15 October 2013)

http://horsetalk.co.nz/2013/10/15/w...horse-positive-banned-substance#axzz2hm75Thr4

Sorry if already posted but can't see another thread yet.


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## Thistle (15 October 2013)

Awaiting results of B test. Apparently Reserpin can give false positives. Hope that is the case!


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## Que Sera (15 October 2013)

B test also being done at a different lab. Fingers crossed!


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## Puppy (15 October 2013)

I'm gobsmacked by this news. I really hope the B test comes back clear.


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## Fanatical (15 October 2013)

I very much hope that the B sample is negative, or if it is positive that it is proved that it is linked to some form of legal supplement.  

I found the following...

'Reserpine is used as a long-acting tranquilizer in horses. It is used to sedate excitable or difficult horses that are on enforced rest. It sometimes is used illicitly to sedate show horses, sale horses or in other circumstances where a "quieter" horse might be desired. Until relatively recently, reserpine was difficult to test for, but there are now sensitive and accurate tests. Blood testing for reserpine use can be complicated by related herbs and plants found in supplements, pastures and hay, which also can cause a positive drug test'


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## swellhillcottage (15 October 2013)

Crikey


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## Que Sera (15 October 2013)

ETS x-posted with Fanatical!


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## scheherazade (15 October 2013)

I would be absolutely amazed if anything had made it round Burghley on Reserpin... Fingers crossed for the B test


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## JFTDWS (15 October 2013)

Puppy said:



			I really hope the B test comes back clear.
		
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Likewise.


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## Kiribati_uk (15 October 2013)

Its the exact same drug that caused Cian oconnor to loose his gold medal at the Athens(?) Olympics,so horse are totally able to function on it!!!!!! Truly hope its a mistake!! Also hope the B sampledoesnt get stolen like Cisns did!!!!!!  It can stay in horses system for about 45days......Its also has a use to help prevent horses bursting(No I don't use it but I listen lots!!)


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## TarrSteps (15 October 2013)

scheherazade said:



			I would be absolutely amazed if anything had made it round Burghleioy on Reserpin... Fingers crossed for the B test
		
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Why's that then? 

The drug used to be used to produce an animal model of depression for scientific study and works very differently than the short acting drugs like ace that people are more familiar with. You wouldn't necessarily know to look at the horse.


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## LaurenEmily (15 October 2013)

Apparently, Clifton Pinot, ridden by Kevin Mcnab is on the pending list, as also tested positive at burghley? Hopefully it's just a coincidence and unrelated


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## Dab (15 October 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			Why's that then? 

The drug used to be used to produce an animal model of depression for scientific study and works very differently than the short acting drugs like ace that people are more familiar with. You wouldn't necessarily know to look at the horse.
		
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So does that mean the horse would be able to function normally and its senses would not be dulled? What would be the purpose of using such a drug in this case? When i read that it was a tranquilizer I could not understand why somebody would want to ride a horse around a 4* course on a dopped horse.


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## scheherazade (15 October 2013)

Dab said:



			So does that mean the horse would be able to function normally and its senses would not be dulled? What would be the purpose of using such a drug in this case? When i read that it was a tranquilizer I could not understand why somebody would want to ride a horse around a 4* course on a dopped horse.
		
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That was what I meant when I made my original comment. I did not think that any horse would be able to get round a tough 4* track on tranquilisers, I don't actually know anything about that drug in particular. Sorry for being unclear.


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## Gamebird (15 October 2013)

Dab said:



			So does that mean the horse would be able to function normally and its senses would not be dulled? What would be the purpose of using such a drug in this case? When i read that it was a tranquilizer I could not understand why somebody would want to ride a horse around a 4* course on a dopped horse.
		
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We're not necessarily talking therapeutic values, could have been given over a month previously and still be traceable in the blood.

Also (not suggesting this is the case but just to illustrate possible scenarios) I believe the horse was tested post SJing so there might be a case where you had a horse which wasn't medicated for the XC but was for the SJ.


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## popsdosh (15 October 2013)

Kiribati_uk said:



			Its the exact same drug that caused Cian oconnor to loose his gold medal at the Athens(?) Olympics,so horse are totally able to function on it!!!!!! Truly hope its a mistake!! Also hope the B sampledoesnt get stolen like Cisns did!!!!!!  It can stay in horses system for about 45days......Its also has a use to help prevent horses bursting(No I don't use it but I listen lots!!)
		
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It can be used to drop blood pressure in horses and help prevent a bleed. Was he not stopped CC for blood on both horses? maybe just a coincidence.I would not hold out much hope for him as it would be highly unusual for the B sample to contradict the A if there was much doubt you would not have had it made public so quick.


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## TarrSteps (15 October 2013)

Obviously it modifies behaviour - that's the point! But if depressive drugs make individuals incompetent then how come so many people like 'a little nip' before hunting? Or xc for that matter. All I'm saying is the horse would not be obviously impaired and clearly horses can jump successfully around big tracks on it as people have been done for it in the past.

I have no opinion on this case as there is no case yet! But to say it's impossible simply because the horse jumped around is not accurate.


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## maxine1985 (15 October 2013)

popsdosh said:



			It can be used to drop blood pressure in horses and help prevent a bleed. Was he not stopped CC for blood on both horses? maybe just a coincidence.I would not hold out much hope for him as it would be highly unusual for the B sample to contradict the A if there was much doubt you would not have had it made public so quick.
		
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Was thinking the same, really hope it is a coincidence though! He rode a fantastic round at Burghley!


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## TarrSteps (15 October 2013)

And yes, as pointed out, it could have been given a month ago or for another reason but that will make no difference, banned is banned.


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## hcm88 (15 October 2013)

popsdosh said:



			It can be used to drop blood pressure in horses and help prevent a bleed. Was he not stopped CC for blood on both horses? maybe just a coincidence.I would not hold out much hope for him as it would be highly unusual for the B sample to contradict the A if there was much doubt you would not have had it made public so quick.
		
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Also thought this.

Clifton Pinot has also tested positive. Really hope there is a simple explanation as I'd hate to think Jock and Promise don't deserve their win


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## Tempi (15 October 2013)

Seems strange that two horses from the same yard (?) have tested positive for the same substance


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## kerilli (15 October 2013)

Tempi said:



			Seems strange that two horses from the same yard (?) have tested positive for the same substance
		
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If it's accidental contamination then it makes absolutely perfect sense. Best case scenario as I see it now is that they test all horses on the yard and more show up positive, and they can trace the source of accidental contamination from a legume etc which causes a false positive.
If not... very bad times for the sport.


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## Pigeon (15 October 2013)

Unless the results are being confounded by some herb they are both being fed in a supplement or that is growing in their pastures. I don't want to believe it's cheating, so holding onto that hope for the time-being!


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## Mickyjoe (15 October 2013)

It would surely have to be a supplement. According to google (which of course, is never wrong!  ), the herb only grows in parts of Africa and India.


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## blackhor2e (15 October 2013)

I do really hope the 2nd test exonerates them, fingers crossed


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## merlinsquest (15 October 2013)

Bad times, I don't think both horses are on the same yard but KmcN trains JP


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## Mickyjoe (15 October 2013)

merlinsquest said:



			Bad times, I don't think both horses are on the same yard but KmcN trains JP
		
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Yes it looks like one is based in Berkshire and the other in Surrey.


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## Polos Mum (15 October 2013)

blackhor2e said:



			I do really hope the 2nd test exonerates them, fingers crossed
		
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Would they really have gone public with the results this long after the even if there was a chance it was an error/ testing problem?  If he is exonerated he'll be wanting a BIG public apology! 

If it is accidental the it's still poor practice for a yard producing horses at that level.  Everyone knows the rules and I'd have thought all suppliments/ meds etc would all be tripple checked for banned substances before they are even brought onto a yard to avoid these kind of problems.


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## Fanatical (15 October 2013)

Polos Mum said:



			Would they really have gone public with the results this long after the even if there was a chance it was an error/ testing problem?  If he is exonerated he'll be wanting a BIG public apology! 

If it is accidental the it's still poor practice for a yard producing horses at that level.  Everyone knows the rules and I'd have thought all suppliments/ meds etc would all be tripple checked for banned substances before they are even brought onto a yard to avoid these kind of problems.
		
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I think it may be very difficult to even know it exists in some cases if the following statement is correct...

'Until relatively recently, reserpine was difficult to test for, but there are now sensitive and accurate tests. Blood testing for reserpine use can be complicated by related herbs and plants found in supplements, pastures and hay, which also can cause a positive drug test' '

I can't imagine that sample B will come back any different to sample A, I think it will all come down to the reasons behind how it has happened.

Unfortunately that will mean that jock will lose his Burghley title and the grand slam will be off! Bad times for the sport. :-(


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## JFTDWS (15 October 2013)

I guess the best outcome is that it's a false positive on account of dietary contamination with one of these "related herbs".  I really wouldn't like to believe it's intentional.


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## Sults (15 October 2013)

From what i've read about reserpine, i don't quite understand why you would want to give it intentionally to a horse going round Burghley?


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## Twiglet (15 October 2013)

I wouldn't expect the two horses to be kept on the same yard, as Jock and Kevin are based in different counties (albeit the horses could obviously have travelled for training but would be terribly unlucky if contamination happened with a visiting horse as well). 

I think it has to be made public because the suspensions are effective immediately and need to be announced - although I stand to be corrected on that. 

Have to say, the whole bleeding on the course - two different horses - did seem odd. I know one was a bleed and one was a cut but still - how often are horses actually stopped for blood on course (I have no idea but I can't recall it happening often??), and to have two stopped on course, both with the same rider, one of whom is unsound the next day?
Not casting any aspersions on Jock whatsoever as I think he's a truly phenomenal rider and seemingly a lovely guy, and I really hope that there's a negative outcome on the B test that gets rid of any doubt. I just found the Burghley situation very unusual at the time.


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## Que Sera (15 October 2013)

Polos Mum said:



			If it is accidental the it's still poor practice for a yard producing horses at that level.  Everyone knows the rules and I'd have thought all suppliments/ meds etc would all be tripple checked for banned substances before they are even brought onto a yard to avoid these kind of problems.
		
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The potential contamination as described in this thread isn't due to the presence of reserpine in a supplement/med; it's to do with the way certain herbs present in some feed/supplements may react during the test to interfere and produce a false positive. That said, I understand everything is being double checked but the team don't believe it's been administered in anything, and it's hard to imagine such a monumental error being made at that level anyway


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## Polos Mum (15 October 2013)

Que Sera said:



			The potential contamination as described in this thread isn't due to the presence of reserpine in a supplement/med; it's to do with the way certain herbs present in some feed/supplements may react during the test to interfere and produce a false positive. That said, I understand everything is being double checked but the team don't believe it's been administered in anything, and it's hard to imagine such a monumental error being made at that level anyway
		
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If the test is that unreliable I'm suprised it's allowed  to be the basis for suspension or if it's just a specific combination of herbs that give false positive again I'm suprised a pro yard would risk the use of such herbs given they know they will be tested. 

I assume he was clear after Badminton so it should be pretty quick to see what has changed diet wise in the interveining months. 

A sad day for the sport in any event, it'll leave a bad taste in people mouths even if it's proven to be an error.  People some how never quite remember the retractions/ apologies as much as they remember the accusation in the first place.


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## JFTDWS (15 October 2013)

Very few tests of this nature are flawless.  As a scientist, I mean, I have no specialist knowledge of drugs testing in eq, but a reasonable knowledge of diagnostics etc.


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## dianchi (15 October 2013)

Im not sure how many samples are tested after comps or if its a case of the winner plus random sample are tested?

In fact.........
http://www.fei.org/fei/horse-health-and-welfare/doping-controlled-medication/neg-results

And yes was negative at badminton


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## Que Sera (15 October 2013)

Polos Mum said:



			If the test is that unreliable I'm suprised it's allowed  to be the basis for suspension or if it's just a specific combination of herbs that give false positive again I'm suprised a pro yard would risk the use of such herbs given they know they will be tested. 

I assume he was clear after Badminton so it should be pretty quick to see what has changed diet wise in the interveining months. 

A sad day for the sport in any event, it'll leave a bad taste in people mouths even if it's proven to be an error.  People some how never quite remember the retractions/ apologies as much as they remember the accusation in the first place.
		
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But IIRC, reserpine use isn't all that common these days anyway and I think it's oversimplifying the potential situation to say 'Everyone involved should know that x + y herbs may = z specific result in a completely unrelated test.' Lay people can't be expected to be aware of every single scientific issue in tests like that. I don't think the test itself is supposedly that unreliable; just that there are other factors that have the potential to throw false results, as in so many tests, as JFTD says.

But whatever's happened, yes, it's sad for all involved and a big shock to many.


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## Polos Mum (15 October 2013)

Que Sera said:



			But IIRC, reserpine use isn't all that common these days anyway and I think it's oversimplifying the potential situation to say 'Everyone involved should know that x + y herbs may = z specific result in a completely unrelated test.' Lay people can't be expected to be aware of every single scientific issue in tests like that. I don't think the test itself is supposedly that unreliable; just that there are other factors that have the potential to throw false results, as in so many tests, as JFTD says.

But whatever's happened, yes, it's sad for all involved and a big shock to many.
		
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I probably am being over simplistic but it's not that common a test result (at least you don't see it in the national press that often !) so it can't be that common a contamination/ false positive issue, and if it was the test should be used with care/ double checked before suspensions (and the associated publicity) are enforced. 
If I were him I'd be very angry if it was my livelihood in question over a test known to throw false positives


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## JFTDWS (15 October 2013)

Polos Mum said:



			I probably am being over simplistic but it's not that common a test result (at least you don't see it in the national press that often !) so it can't be that common a contamination/ false positive issue, and if it was the test should be used with care/ double checked before suspensions (and the associated publicity) are enforced. 
If I were him I'd be very angry if it was my livelihood in question over a test known to throw false positives
		
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Tests like this will have a sensitivity value (the likelihood of detecting positive result) and a specificity value (the likelihood of not having a false positive).  I cannot think of a single diagnostic test which has a 100% value for each of these.  All tests are capable of throwing false positives, and there are always confounding factors. These factors might not be very common, but they still exist.  If it is a false positive, I also think he'd be justified in feeling pretty angry at being suspended and at the shadow it casts over the whole affair.  It doesn't, however, mean that the science behind the testing can somehow miraculously become watertight!


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## Goldenstar (15 October 2013)

Twiglet said:



			I wouldn't expect the two horses to be kept on the same yard, as Jock and Kevin are based in different counties (albeit the horses could obviously have travelled for training but would be terribly unlucky if contamination happened with a visiting horse as well). 

I think it has to be made public because the suspensions are effective immediately and need to be announced - although I stand to be corrected on that. 

Have to say, the whole bleeding on the course - two different horses - did seem odd. I know one was a bleed and one was a cut but still - how often are horses actually stopped for blood on course (I have no idea but I can't recall it happening often??), and to have two stopped on course, both with the same rider, one of whom is unsound the next day?
Not casting any aspersions on Jock whatsoever as I think he's a truly phenomenal rider and seemingly a lovely guy, and I really hope that there's a negative outcome on the B test that gets rid of any doubt. I just found the Burghley situation very unusual at the time.
		
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popsdosh said:



			It can be used to drop blood pressure in horses and help prevent a bleed. Was he not stopped CC for blood on both horses? maybe just a coincidence.I would not hold out much hope for him as it would be highly unusual for the B sample to contradict the A if there was much doubt you would not have had it made public so quick.
		
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I so hope the B test is ok 
I just hope it's not something like the above it would just be terrible for the sport.


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## Polos Mum (15 October 2013)

JFTD said:



			It doesn't, however, mean that the science behind the testing can somehow miraculously become watertight!
		
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i do understand, I guess in human medicine you have a test result and a margin of error so you can (as you need to) take both into consideration.  For example a test I had for premature labour, they told me had a 20%+ false positive rate so when I got the results I didn't panic!!  It's still a useful test but only in context of other tests.

If a dope test has a known large margin of error then it might make sense to do the  B test before acting on the results - that's all I'm trying to say (obviously badly!)


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## JFTDWS (15 October 2013)

Absolutely.  It's also worth keeping in mind that even a very low false positive rate will occasionally give some unlucky sod an erroneous result.  Even if it's really, really rare, until we see the B test result, it could conceivably be the case here.  Like the lottery for the really unlucky!


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## Equibrit (15 October 2013)

http://www.provedic.com/uk/perky-herbs-rauvolfia-serpentina.html


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## hcm88 (15 October 2013)

Doubt the test is so unreliable that two false positives will suddenly appear from the same event though...? Particularly where the horses are linked..

Anyway I don't want to get into assuming and blaming until the B test comes back as its awfully unfair if there has been some huge error. I hope for Jock's (and the sport's) sake that everything comes back hunky dory, surely must be an explanation for it even if we can't guess it here.


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## TarrSteps (15 October 2013)

Equibrit said:



http://www.provedic.com/uk/perky-herbs-rauvolfia-serpentina.html

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Hard to say if that's good news or bad news!


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## woodlandswow (15 October 2013)

Would it be controversial to say that I am not surprised at all by this.. 
having landed as a groom to a top eventer this year, the things you hear about certain riders are unspeakable to the keen eventing follower but everyday life to the insiders. 
Which other pro is checking their horse at 11pm on the Saturday night.. I thought that was the grooms job, leader or not..


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## Puppy (15 October 2013)

http://www.radiolivesport.co.nz/And...-Stead/tabid/454/articleID/15955/Default.aspx

Interview with Andrew Nicholson and Frances Stead.


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## Auslander (15 October 2013)

woodlandswow said:



			Which other pro is checking their horse at 11pm on the Saturday night.. I thought that was the grooms job, leader or not..
		
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Ignoring the idle gossip element of this post...
I have worked for several team riders, in the UK, and on the continent - and all of them were very hands on when it came to monitoring their horses well being at international 3 day events.


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## Bestdogdash (15 October 2013)

woodlandswow said:



			Would it be controversial to say that I am not surprised at all by this.. 
having landed as a groom to a top eventer this year, the things you hear about certain riders are unspeakable to the keen eventing follower but everyday life to the insiders. 
Which other pro is checking their horse at 11pm on the Saturday night.. I thought that was the grooms job, leader or not..
		
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Agree ^^^^^ this ..... If it is positive why the gnashing of teeth and wailing ? It is better to get a cheat exposed and out the sport.


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## TGM (15 October 2013)

This is interesting:
http://www.rcplondon.ac.uk/museum-and-garden/garden/world-medicine-beds/vinca-major

Periwinkle (Vinca major) which is native to Europe and grows freely in my hedges at home, is said to contain reserpine.


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## OliveBuffy1129 (15 October 2013)

Difficult one I agree that the point of both of Jocks horses were stopped for bleeding? My other thought was it could of been given to both of Jocks horses and Kevins but with Clifton Lush being withdrawn they wouldn't of drug tested him would be interesting to see if they had drug tested Lush whether he came back positive. Just a thought  do hope that the accusations are false as Jock seemed such a friendly person but then again anyone can be nice but cheat I suppose....


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## angelish (15 October 2013)

update from jocks team 
http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/9288863/Jock-Paget-vows-to-clear-his-name

i really do hope the B test comes back neg for there sake as well as the sport


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## kerilli (15 October 2013)

Auslander said:



			Ignoring the idle gossip element of this post...
I have worked for several team riders, in the UK, and on the continent - and all of them were very hands on when it came to monitoring their horses well being at international 3 day events.
		
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This. I would not trust ANYONE to check my horse's legs at late night feedtime. Lots of riders are very hands-on.


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## Thistle (15 October 2013)

The rider is responsible for the horse, whyever would they not do late night checks.


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## oldvic (15 October 2013)

woodlandswow said:



			Would it be controversial to say that I am not surprised at all by this.. 
having landed as a groom to a top eventer this year, the things you hear about certain riders are unspeakable to the keen eventing follower but everyday life to the insiders. 
Which other pro is checking their horse at 11pm on the Saturday night.. I thought that was the grooms job, leader or not..
		
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This is scurrilous at best. Plenty of riders will check their own horses. The rules are that anyone going into the stables late are escorted to their stable by a steward and then back out again so actions would be seen. Remember that Jock's other horse was carrying an injury so it is even more likely that someone of his caring nature would check his boys were comfortable for the night. The two blood incidents are totally unrelated. Promise bit his tongue and had blood round his lips - not altogether surprising as he had his tongue out of the side of his mouth. Lush banged his nose on the elephant trap (clearly visible on the video) which caused a nosebleed. I wonder, would you be saying the same if it was a top British rider that you had seen in the stables late in the evening? Anyone doubting Jock's character should listen to Andrew Nicholson's interview that is linked earlier in this thread. His thoughts on Jock are genuine and he is the one to gain most from a Burghley disqualification.


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## popsdosh (15 October 2013)

What I find slightly disturbing is that two horses closely linked tested positive to a banned substance.This drug has only recently had a reliable test devised for it.I am not sure where the term a few seem to be taking faith in false positive comes from it is only that a positive can come from a plant source ,however this is not a false positive but the horse is still influenced by it so will fail. It is the same situation as a horse that has consumed willow leaves is in it may not be intentional but will still be classed as positive and disqualified (unless you come from Dubai that is).
This drug has been used in racing in USA in states where you are not allowed to use Lasix to control bleeders like I say it is only recently they have been able to test for it.
It is sad that Jock may lose his title if a genuine mistake has been made however if from a feed supplement it shows a lack of care im afraid.All the top riders are aware of what they should avoid otherwise there would be many more failures!


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## JFTDWS (15 October 2013)

Popdosh, a positive result for an NSAID from a horse that has eaten willow is not a false positive - it is a positive as the willow contains salicylic acid, an NSAID.  A false positive is just that - an erroneous positive due to a confounding factor which is not the compound being tested for.  It can happen on account of similarly shaped molecules in the blood (which may or may not be banned) or a lab issue.  It may not be a common occurence, but even if there's a 1 in a 1000 error rate for the test, some unlucky sod has to be that 1!

I'm currently having a look for the nature of the testing they're doing.  I know there's an ELISA for reserpine, and I assume that's confirmed by MS/ LC-MS.  ELISAs are very sensitive, but often have quite low specificities so I can't imagine the FEI are relying on that alone.  The exact nature of the testing may indicate whether it's plausible that it's a genuine false positive.


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## popsdosh (15 October 2013)

I never said a positive for salicylic acid caused by willow would be a false positive just that if from a plant source it would still be a possitive. The FEI have said it has took a while to get a test that has been accurate that does not have false positives so hopefully that is not an issue. Also the fact that two horses at one event under related management test positive will most likely blow the false positive theory out of the water,because if the test had that failure rate they would not be using it!!


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## JFTDWS (16 October 2013)

1.  There is no test in the world which is 100% sensitive and 100% specific.  

2.  The related management actually may strengthen the false positive theory, it may be far less likely to have two entirely unrelated horses test false postive by chance, depending on the nature of the false positive result.

I'm not talking about eventing specific stuff here.  I'm talking about the science behind the testing because that's what I know about.  I'm in no position to judge whether JP has done anything wrong.  I do think that people should wait until the B test is performed and the investigations are complete before speculating about any wrongdoing on his part.  Innocent until proven guilty and all that.


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## popsdosh (16 October 2013)

The A sample will have been re checked several times before this announcement so margin for error is very small and unlikely to reoccur over several checks. I am not  condemning the guy in any way as I hope the B comes back clear , just trying to show that this is very unlikely to occur.


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## JFTDWS (16 October 2013)

popsdosh said:



			The A sample will have been re checked several times before this announcement so margin for error is very small and unlikely to reoccur over several checks. I am not  condemning the guy in any way as I hope the B comes back clear , just trying to show that this is very unlikely to occur.
		
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I'm not sure that your basis for that statement is very sound though.  And I speak as someone who has performed these sorts of tests myself, though obviously not for the FEI!  Depending on the exact nature of the test (which I can't find a definitive statement confirming), the A sample may not have been sufficient for repeated testing, and indeed technical repetitions may have been of little value.

ETA - I do agree that it is unlikely that the B sample will give a different result.  My point is that there is a margin for error in diagnostic testing which shouldn't be dismissed out of hand.


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## Bestdogdash (16 October 2013)

oldvic said:



			This is scurrilous at best. Plenty of riders will check their own horses. The rules are that anyone going into the stables late are escorted to their stable by a steward and then back out again so actions would be seen. Remember that Jock's other horse was carrying an injury so it is even more likely that someone of his caring nature would check his boys were comfortable for the night. The two blood incidents are totally unrelated. Promise bit his tongue and had blood round his lips - not altogether surprising as he had his tongue out of the side of his mouth. Lush banged his nose on the elephant trap (clearly visible on the video) which caused a nosebleed. I wonder, would you be saying the same if it was a top British rider that you had seen in the stables late in the evening? Anyone doubting Jock's character should listen to Andrew Nicholson's interview that is linked earlier in this thread. His thoughts on Jock are genuine and he is the one to gain most from a Burghley disqualification.
		
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I have no idea if he is guilty or not but wanted to say that this ^^^
is incorrect. I own an international eventer and, providing you have the correct stable pass, no one accompanies you to the stables. I regularly go see him late at night for a final check and carrot and no one has ever been with with me. 

I would also say too many coincidences herE - the biggest being that   five lower placed horses randomly tested showed that four were negative and the fifth Jock's 14th placed horse, tested positive.


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## popsdosh (16 October 2013)

Bestdogdash said:



			I have no idea if he is guilty or not but wanted to say that this ^^^
is incorrect. I own an international eventer and, providing you have the correct stable pass, no one accompanies you to the stables. I regularly go see him late at night for a final check and carrot and no one has ever been with with me. 

I would also say too many coincidences herE - the biggest being that   five lower placed horses randomly tested showed that four were negative and the fifth Jock's 14th placed horse, tested positive.
		
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The 14th placed horse was not Jocks but Kevin mcnabs however they are closely linked! They also share a co owner.


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## sportsmansB (16 October 2013)

I have groomed at several internationals and can confirm that riders (even those who don't bother at home) are VERY likely to check their horses late on XC night. It might be the only late check they do all year (for some!) 
I would be so gutted for Jock if this turned out to be a genuine mistake- many riders rely on their vets, grooms and supplement manufacturers combined with their own experience to avoid this situation, but none of them are scientists and keeping up with the latest issues and various different names and terminologies is a minefield. 
Fingers crossed there is a good outcome. Seems unlikely though that B sample will be any different- surely it is in case of contamination in the A, and if KMcN's was positive too that would be a big coincidence.


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## cptrayes (16 October 2013)

Could reserpine have been used to calm the horse for the dressage, in the belief that there was not yet a test for it? Presumably even though it is long acting, the sheer adrenaline of the cross country overcomes it?


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## silu (16 October 2013)

When there is lots of money involved in any equine discipline the pressure to cheat using banned substances increases. There have been quite a few cases even in junior show jumping . Eventing and Endurance both seem to have changed dramatically over recent years and lost their predominately amateur status regrettably.


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## popsdosh (16 October 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Could reserpine have been used to calm the horse for the dressage, in the belief that there was not yet a test for it? Presumably even though it is long acting, the sheer adrenaline of the cross country overcomes it?
		
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Unlikely scenario ,it would be like playing russian roulette going round a 4* there are other possible reasons to use it .I just hope its been accidental.


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## wilde2 (16 October 2013)

popsdosh said:



			Unlikely scenario ,it would be like playing russian roulette going round a 4* there are other possible reasons to use it .I just hope its been accidental.
		
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Ok, firstly I want to say this question is for information only, not implying that it is pertinent to this case. While I have heard rumours of this being a problem across equestrian disciplines, I always assumed this was at lower levels where the chance of being tested was more remote, or at higher levels where there is no chance of winning. Maybe I am being naïve - however, if you know you are going to be tested if you win, I cannot see why anyone that is in with a chance of winning would even consider this, regardless of the moral stance. From a pure numbers game, for an on form Badminton winner, surely there was a good chance of him winning Burghley? While still obviously a huge and amazing achievement, each year there is less competition than Badminton isn't there as there has always been a championship prior to it so the team horses are missing? Anyway, that waffle was just to say that I believe innocent til proven guilty, and also that in this case I would expect there to be an explanation. However, I am intrigued as to the possible uses for this drug that would make anyone consider it worth the risk? Is it performance enhancing? Would it hide anything that would allow a horse to compete that otherwise would not be able to? Also I think I read somewhere that the B test was being done yesterday, does anyone know how long before the results? I know the entire process can take up to 6 weeks - but I presume the majority of this is to allow the rider time to investigate should both results be positive. It does seem hard too that this is all in the public domain until a conclusion is reached.


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## MandyMoo (16 October 2013)

oh dear...interesting to read everyone's responses and thoughts.

I agree ''innocent until proven guilty'' and I will not judge Jock or anyone involved until it has been proven to be a positive or (hopefully) a negative.

But I do agree there are a lot of coincidences here, and it is sadly pointing towards a positive result being more likely. If so, I really hope it is accidental - and would be a huge shame for Jock if it is, as he would lose his chances at the grand slam, and would receive a tremendous amount of bad publicity in the media....it would make life very hard for him. However, having said that, if it wasn't accidental, and he has actually cheated (not judging currently, as it has not been proven) then he would need to be exposed, and any bad publicity would be well deserved.

What a shame for the sport


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## MiaBella (16 October 2013)

It has been said a few times that the test for reserpine is new. Does anyone know when this test came into use? (i.e. before or after Badminton testing?)


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## armchair_rider (16 October 2013)

Real shame whatever the truth turns out to be - lots of negative publicity for Jock and the sport in general. I'm leaning towards it being an accident, you wouldn't want a horse going round  a 4* XC with that in it's system and you wouldn't dope with a detectable substance before the SJ knowing that the winner would be drug tested. On the other hand, if it were a case of contaminated feed/supplements then you'd expect to see more positive tests.


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## firm (16 October 2013)

Miabella it is not that new as mentioned earlier a positive test came back for it in the 2004 Olympics SJ. There was another SJ tested positive for it I think 5/6 years ago.   So maybe it does have a use in SJ  sadly :-(


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## chestnut cob (16 October 2013)

Playing devil's advocate a little here... how is using Reserpine, which is a tranquilliser, much different to the many people I know who have hunted horses on ACP?  It does happen.  In some circumstances, people DO sedate their horses then ride them.  It isn't beyond the realms of possibility.  **disclaimer** don't all jump on me, I am not suggesting this has been done deliberately, just making a point that people do do it.  I've known people hunt horses on ACP over some pretty serious country... (incidentally, I am also not suggesting this is a clever or great idea and certainly not something I would do... but again making the point that people DO do it on some occasions)

Assuming the B sample also tests positive, I really do hope this wasn't deliberate doping.  If it was an accident, I would question whether at this level, there is ever an excuse for a horse to ingest something banned accidentally.  I don't know though.  Anyone found to be doping deliberately should be given a lengthy ban to serve as an example.  I am an avid cycling fan and it is easy for anyone to see how much damage doping has done to that sport.  Doping in any sport should be dealt with quickly and harshly.  However, these are all moot points until a judgment is made.


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## TarrSteps (16 October 2013)

silu said:



			When there is lots of money involved in any equine discipline the pressure to cheat using banned substances increases. There have been quite a few cases even in junior show jumping . Eventing and Endurance both seem to have changed dramatically over recent years and lost their predominately amateur status regrettably.
		
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While I agree with your sentiment, it's naive to think cheating - either actual rule breaking or just in intent - is new. What has increased is scrutiny of horse sports and the science to do something about it. You only have to read a few old books to find a whole list of tricks. 

That is one of the eternal issues in sport. You have a whole bunch of people who, by definition, want desperately to win but that means some of them will try a little *too* hard. Not to mention that most people have an area or two where they justify their own dodgy ethics - it's okay to speed because the traffic is light and I REALLY need to be on time, the big company I work for won't miss a bit of paper - and it's easy to see why there are always going to be people who cheat but might not even perceive it that way. I'm not sure I'm always thrilled with the application of Clean Sport rules but at least it's an effort.

Reserpine is not new or even that rare, at least outside the UK, where it isn't licensed for use. Although, as someone pointed out, you can get the plant its extracted from on line. The newer test isn't even that new - I can't remember when, exactly, it came in but I do remember some people getting caught in Florida.


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## Fanatical (16 October 2013)

Another option to consider, not a nice one and not necessarily my view, is that suggested by both horses co-owner, Francis Stead.

Obviously as an athlete, people can monitor exactly what they are consuming, however with horses, you have to trust the team around you. However at competitions there are very many people in and around the stables who could potentially administer something to a horse very, very easily. 

The Clifton horses are currently very, very successful and a lot is/ was at stake (Grand Slam ect). There are unfortunately people out there who do not like to see others enjoy such success. 

It is easy for us all to sit and deliberate over the various possibilities but of course there os the very real possibility that nobody will ever know. 

I personally really feel for Jock and his team. I dont think he would knowingly drug his horses, when his sole intention was to win the event  knowing that the winner is always tested.


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## chestnut cob (16 October 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			That is one of the eternal issues in sport. You have a whole bunch of people who, by definition, want desperately to win but that means some of them will try a little *too* hard. Not to mention that most people have an area or two where they justify their own dodgy ethics
		
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It's that question of whether the end justifies the means.  No different to when there were endless debates about rollkur on here... if it achieves the *end*, does it justify the means?  When there is money involved, there will always be someone willing to cut a corner or do something they wouldn't normally.


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## Mickyjoe (16 October 2013)

Fanatical said:



			Another option to consider, not a nice one and not necessarily my view, is that suggested by both horses co-owner, Francis Stead.

Obviously as an athlete, people can monitor exactly what they are consuming, however with horses, you have to trust the team around you. However at competitions there are very many people in and around the stables who could potentially administer something to a horse very, very easily. 

The Clifton horses are currently very, very successful and a lot is/ was at stake (Grand Slam ect). There are unfortunately people out there who do not like to see others enjoy such success. 

It is easy for us all to sit and deliberate over the various possibilities but of course there os the very real possibility that nobody will ever know. 

I personally really feel for Jock and his team. I don&#8217;t think he would knowingly drug his horses, when his sole intention was to win the event &#8211; knowing that the winner is always tested.
		
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This is what I am inclined to think too. It does seem as though it could be someone with a grudge against the Clifton success and it's not beyond the realms of possibility that someone could have slipped the horses something while in the Burghley stables. Of course, that then raises the murky point that it would have had to be someone who either broke in secretly or else had legitimate access to the stables.  I wonder what would have shown up if Clifton Lush had been tested too?


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## TarrSteps (16 October 2013)

It would be a very good way to nobble someone! Not for the reason many on here seem to think - because the horse would be a stoned out zombie, which was clearly not the case here  - but because it's a well known drug with a historical use for cheating. Mind you, you could say the same about bute, ace and all sorts of other common meds, although I guess you could then make the argument reserpine is much harder to explain away and has a significant cultural bias against it.

Interesting times.


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## Fanatical (16 October 2013)

Mickyjoe said:



			This is what I am inclined to think too. It does seem as though it could be someone with a grudge against the Clifton success and it's not beyond the realms of possibility that someone could have slipped the horses something while in the Burghley stables. Of course, that then raises the murky point that it would have had to be someone who either broke in secretly or else had legitimate access to the stables.  I wonder what would have shown up if Clifton Lush had been tested too?
		
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Quite! I suspect Lush would also have tested positive. When such vast sums of money are involved, people can get very nasty unfortunately. It would not be too difficult to slip something to all 3 Clifton horses.
It makes you shudder to think about.


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## ihatework (16 October 2013)

A horribe situation all round.
It will be interesting to see what the testing shows on all Clifton/associated horses, what the testing shows on all feeds/supplements associated with those stables. That should help to narrow down the source.
If feeds sources and other horses test negative then the implications are very concerning.


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## TarrSteps (16 October 2013)

chestnut cob said:



			It's that question of whether the end justifies the means.  No different to when there were endless debates about rollkur on here... if it achieves the *end*, does it justify the means?  When there is money involved, there will always be someone willing to cut a corner or do something they wouldn't normally.
		
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Well, except that, at the time, there was no rule against rolkur and there is still much debate. 

A drug test is much more cut and dried.

Technically, calmers and PTSD surgery are against the rules. Hands up. . .   And yet there are endless debates on here about whether or not having a horse schooled or even taking 'too many' lessons is cheating. The fact is many people define the term by what they personally won't/can't do!

In fact, I'd say more people cheat at the lower levels, even if they don't see it that way. They justify it by saying it doesn't really matter, or its not to win, or even that they are unlikely to be tested so no one *really* cares.


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## ajn1610 (16 October 2013)

It never ceases to amaze me how people don't read their rule books or bother to get themselves properly informed! Rules are rules and it's the rider's responsibility what ever their level to be aware of them and abide by them.
It might be that someone has legitimately used a medication legally in prior training and underestimated how long it takes for a drug to clear the horses system. It might be that you have some sloppy yard practices and a banned substance has accidentally got into the horses through shared buckets. It might be something innocuous testing positive like a herb in the pasture as others have mentioned.
We all know that there are some extreme practices by some people. I've seen some shocking cheating and infringement of horse welfare at both ends of the spectrum. 
I don't know anything about the rider in question but I seriously doubt this is intentional cheating. You'd have to be half witted to try and pull that off when you absolutely know your going to be tested at FEI competitions. It sad for the yard that this would taint an otherwise stupendous achievement but ultimately it's the rider's responsibility to ensure they are competing clean.


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## PolarSkye (16 October 2013)

ajn1610 said:



			It never ceases to amaze me how people don't read their rule books or bother to get themselves properly informed! Rules are rules and it's the rider's responsibility what ever their level to be aware of them and abide by them.
It might be that someone has legitimately used a medication legally in prior training and underestimated how long it takes for a drug to clear the horses system. It might be that you have some sloppy yard practices and a banned substance has accidentally got into the horses through shared buckets. It might be something innocuous testing positive like a herb in the pasture as others have mentioned.
We all know that there are some extreme practices by some people. I've seen some shocking cheating and infringement of horse welfare at both ends of the spectrum. 
I don't know anything about the rider in question but I seriously doubt this is intentional cheating. You'd have to be half witted to try and pull that off when you absolutely know your going to be tested at FEI competitions. It sad for the yard that this would taint an otherwise stupendous achievement but ultimately it's the rider's responsibility to ensure they are competing clean.
		
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100% agree.  I feel very sorry for Team Paget, but a mistake was made somewhere and that sort of slip up is just irresponsible or foolish when the stakes are this high . . . well, that, or the horses were nobbled somehow . . . 

. . . very unfortunate for the sport, though - especially when public opinion is still (sadly) that horse sports are for toffs and riders are just passengers.  

P


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## Fanatical (16 October 2013)

Other facts to note...

Whilst Jock paget has been happy to respond to the allegations, Kevin McNab has declined to talk with 'no comment'.

The horses, Clifton Promise and Clifton Pinot were stabled in adjacent stables at Burghley.


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## popsdosh (16 October 2013)

Fanatical said:



			Other facts to note...

Whilst Jock paget has been happy to respond to the allegations, Kevin McNab has declined to talk with 'no comment'.

The horses, Clifton Promise and Clifton Pinot were stabled in adjacent stables at Burghley.
		
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Personally Jock would do better keeping his mouth shut also as things you say have a habit of biting you in the bum one day.There is no guilt from keeping your mouth shut and things tend to quieten up quicker for it.I feel sad for him if it is something outside his control as it potentially could end his career.


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## BeckyD (16 October 2013)

I feel really gutted for JP and his team and Frances Stead.  I really think the chances of this being intentional doping from JP is unlikely; they would have to be extremely dim to think he would get away with it, bearing in mind the high probability of his horse(s) being tested.

I suspect the B test will come back positive, and we will never know who was responsible.  For sure, someone is sitting there rubbing their hands with glee as the situation worsens for JP.

Or maybe I've just read too much Dick Francis!


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## Polos Mum (16 October 2013)

It this was tampering by a third party, top end grooms will find themselves sleeping in stables with their charges at big events to prevent this kind of thing!  I hope we've all just been watching too much CSI/ reading too much Dick Frances! 

JP will know if it was done deliberately, he'll also be able to work out if it was accidental by testing his other horses/ looking at his feeds.


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## teapot (16 October 2013)

Going with the innocent until proven guilty side of things but it's a worry for the sport.

How does the B sample work? It is a sample taken at the same time the A sample is and kept just incase further testing is needed?


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## JFTDWS (16 October 2013)

teapot said:



			Going with the innocent until proven guilty side of things but it's a worry for the sport.

How does the B sample work? It is a sample taken at the same time the A sample is and kept just incase further testing is needed?
		
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Having read the FEI rules more extensively than I could possibly have any need to yesterday, I can answer that.  The B is sample is taken at the same time as the A sample, and stored separately for analysis at a second laboratory, performed by a different investigator in the event of a positive A sample.


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## Freddie19 (16 October 2013)

Bestdogdash said:



			I have no idea if he is guilty or not but wanted to say that this ^^^
is incorrect. I own an international eventer and, providing you have the correct stable pass, no one accompanies you to the stables. I regularly go see him late at night for a final check and carrot and no one has ever been with with me. 

I would also say too many coincidences herE - the biggest being that   five lower placed horses randomly tested showed that four were negative and the fifth Jock's 14th placed horse, tested positive.
		
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Could I just say as a stable manager at an FEI 3 Day Event, stables are closed to everybody at mutually agreed time, with us it is 10pm. You can only go into the stable area to visit your horse with vet's agreement and accompanied by a steward.  Obviously it is not always possible to fully secure the stable area, and in some lower star events it is not now required by the FEI to fully secure the stable area.   I only hope we do not have to go back to fencing around all stables at all starred events because it is a huge expense for all organisers to do this. If you have visited your horse after the closing time on Saturday night, you have (inadvertently hopefully) broken the rules.   Just as a PS, this rule as I understand, was brought in on veterinary advice to stop, the continued walking of horses, which used to be dragged from their stables and walked for hours on end, when all they wanted to do was rest!!! I of course stand to be corrected. PPSL One of the stable management team's jobs is to listen out for any loud noises, ie overly kicking from the stable block, find out who is kicking etc, and contact either rider or groom, this is why we are so adamant about having a mobile no for each competitor.  The stable vet also sleeps on site so to be right on the spot.


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## teapot (16 October 2013)

JFTD said:



			Having read the FEI rules more extensively than I could possibly have any need to yesterday, I can answer that.  The B is sample is taken at the same time as the A sample, and stored separately for analysis at a second laboratory, performed by a different investigator in the event of a positive A sample.
		
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Thanks


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## Honey08 (16 October 2013)

Very interesting thread with input from a wide variety of top event areas.  

H&H said JP had asked for the second sample to be tested by a different lab etc.

I am gutted, I had him down for the grand slam, but it seems unlikely now.  I also believe in him being innocent until proven otherwise.


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## JFTDWS (16 October 2013)

I think the rules also state that he can choose to be present for the second test, or elect a witness for it.  (Unless I dreamt that last night, it was on my mind!)  Which is interesting.  I wonder if he's taking them up on it - I can't imagine a frustrated, non-scientist rider breathing down their necks would be fun for the guys doing the testing!


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## LittleRooketRider (16 October 2013)

i'm really not sure what to make of this...other than if it comes back negative great BUT if it comes back positive people should not fish around for excuses, at that level he should know exactly what is happening with the horse he is riding full stop (i am not saying the horse was definately drugged just that this is how it should be if it is)


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## LillySparrow (16 October 2013)

What is ace?


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## AnnaWM (16 October 2013)

Interview with Jock Paget...http://tvnz.co.nz/othersports-news/jock-paget-downplays-foul-play-suggestion-5651671/video


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## FlaxenPony05 (16 October 2013)

AnnaWM said:



			Interview with Jock Paget...http://tvnz.co.nz/othersports-news/jock-paget-downplays-foul-play-suggestion-5651671/video

Click to expand...

He looks shattered, and to my mind, pretty genuine.


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## Thistle (16 October 2013)

LillySparrow said:



			What is ace?
		
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Am guessing ACP with autocorrect?


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## cptrayes (16 October 2013)

FlaxenPony05 said:



			He looks shattered, and to my mind, pretty genuine.
		
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He's very uncomfortable for some reason - check out his blink rate.


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## popsdosh (16 October 2013)

LillySparrow said:



			What is ace?
		
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Acetylpromazine ace for short AKA acp


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## FlaxenPony05 (16 October 2013)

cptrayes said:



			He's very uncomfortable for some reason - check out his blink rate.
		
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But he's bound to be uncomfortable- the whole situation is pretty uncomfortable to be honest, even if it is just 'something in the grass' and completely unintentional. I don't think he seems like the type to get really emotional and defensive. 

IMO, the drug seems like it could very easily be part of a supplement or something accidentally picked up by the horse (someone said earlier that it can be found in periwinkle in the hedgerows for eg) which in small amounts wouldn't affect the horse's overall performance but could still be picked up in bloods. Also, novicey question here, but why would anyone want to dope a horse up for XC? I can understand for selling or showing...but eventing?


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## LillySparrow (16 October 2013)

Thanks Thistle and Popsdosh. Is it a sedative?


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## cptrayes (16 October 2013)

The drug is long acting.

The sedative would be given to get a better dressage score out of a hyper fit horse.
Perhaps the test is more sensitive now than it used to be and will pick it up days later when it did not used to.

Perhaps it's just an accident. I doubt we'll ever know.


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## JFTDWS (16 October 2013)

cptrayes said:



			He's very uncomfortable for some reason - check out his blink rate.
		
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I think I'd be uncomfortable too, given the context of this interview.  Plus he looks wrecked and people do blink more when they're tired.


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## popsdosh (16 October 2013)

cptrayes said:



			He's very uncomfortable for some reason - check out his blink rate.
		
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I think he knows that the title has gone and it could end his career(it will be a 2yr ban) as they will be certain that B sample is very unlikely to test differently.I think I would feel uncomfortable in the situation if I knew what had happened or not.
I personally cannot think any rider would go into a major event like Burghley and deliberately drug a horse so this is food for the sabotage theory.Reserpine however is a drug that has a long and unpredictable withdrawal period!


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## popsdosh (16 October 2013)

LillySparrow said:



			Thanks Thistle and Popsdosh. Is it a sedative?
		
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It is a sedative that has other effects that may be advantageous in horses ie lowering blood pressure in horses that burst blood vessels.
Agree with CPT doubt we will ever know the truth of what happened!


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## LillySparrow (16 October 2013)

Thanks Popsdosh. Recently moved to USA and heard in passing someone asking one of the grooms to give her horse a shot of 'ace'. Assumed at the time it was an anti-inflammatory or joint supplement like adaquin but then saw it mentioned on here as possibly being a sedative. Pretty sucky if she's actually sedating her horse just to ride it. But have heard of a yard over here that routinely sedates their lesson horses because they are scared of liability in the event that anyone falls off. Seems to be no regulation here on this.


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## smellsofhorse (17 October 2013)

I believe in innocent until proven guilty.

I like JP and hope this is all a big mistake, the B test comes back negative and this can all be forgotten.

But the Clifton horses both being positive is worrying.
Even if not from the same yard.

I hoping if the B test is also posisive then its an accidental contamination.
But even this shows a lack of thoroughness in a situation where everything in the horses lives, feed and carrer are closely monitored.

Fingers crossed for a good out come.


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## Alyth (17 October 2013)

I agree 'smellsofhorse'!  Nowadays it is so easy to contaminate feeds, grooming substances, treats etc....I am sure it is non intentional and it is tragic for Jock as he has to prove his innocence rather than the FEI proving him guilty....the fact that the 2 horses were stabled next to each other makes me wonder if one groom borrowed something from the other, or something equally as innocent as giving both horses a treat....


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## TarrSteps (17 October 2013)

Out of curiosity, with the exception of two cases I can think of (one involving a positive test for antibiotics because a mill had mixed horse and cattle feed using the same paddle) how many positive drug tests for a specific substance can be traced back to compromised feed? Why are we not seeing positives every day of the week? This medication is not even licensed for use in the UK (although, as pointed out, questionably available for people). The periwinkle link is interesting but I can't see why any supplement would contain it. 

I'm not bringing this up because of this situation but because there seems to be a feeling that a positive test could be waiting around every corner but this is not the case. The vast majority of positive tests are for medications or making agents. 

That said, we've had numerous discussions on the board about importing meds from overseas because it's a cheaper, less controlled source. Surely a situation like this gets people thinking about the risks of that sort of situation?


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## Thistle (17 October 2013)

Reserpine is long acting and dosed approx once a fortnight, it helps block adrenaline and is commonly used in Aus and NZ.

Just a thought, if the drug was used and withdrawn well before Burghley, but somehow remained (think a 6 week+ withdrawal) then surely the horse would have been competing BE with it in the system anyway which is just as bad.

I would suspect that many horses would test positive for this down through the levels in all disciplines.

TBH I had never heard of it but asked a more knowlegable friend about it.


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## MiaBella (17 October 2013)

I think you tend to find even international pro yards aren't always as professional as others (some are very vigilent, mostly because they have been caught in the past or someone close to them has been). 

As Reserpine has such a long and unpredictable withdrawal period it could have been given to the horses over a month before Burghley - possibly as part of a supplement to treat something else (and whilst not available in the UK, a quick google shows it was quite a popular drug in barrel racing in the US for example) and possibly provided by a well meaning friend who has a supplement that works really well blah blah.   Or sometimes people quote withdrawal times without actually checking the facts themselves (so and so said it takes x days to clear the system) 
Not all grooms are diligent at washing out feed bowls and using seperate tools for mixing when other horses are on supplements.  (Not all yards advocate this practise) 
Not all vets are as diligent as they should be either (particularly if the owner/rider/groom doesn't mention what the horse is off to do) and again possibly prescribed a treatment without realising the true withdrawal time. 
Also Resperine is 'herbal' (Indian Snakeroot) and we all know herbal means its safe... (and not everyone double checks the ingredients on their feed products) 
Its also possible its a false positive and actually it was periwinkle or similar that has caused the result.  

Or it is sabotage 
Or with all hope the B sample comes back as negative.  

And as others have stated, its unlikely we will ever know the full truth of whats happened, just such a shame for the sport (as well as the riders, grooms, owners and family of those involved)


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## Clodagh (17 October 2013)

I really cannot imagine any 4 star event horse getting turned out very much, and when they do I can't imagine them munching away on periwinkle.
I really hope it is a mistake and is all cleared up, he seems like such a nice young man and a lovely rider.

ETA I see he is turned out, but not many hedges in the view.


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## ArcticFox (17 October 2013)

why would a 4 star not be turned out!  I'd expect them to be booted up and in individual turnout, but I wouldn't expect them to not be turned out at all - even the top dressage horses are all turned out!

I'm a believer in innocent until proven guilty


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## armchair_rider (17 October 2013)

I've seen pictures of Mary King's horses roughed off for winter - group turnout, no boots and i'm not sure they were rugged. So it isn't impossible the horse ate something while turned out - thought that wouldn't explain the other positive test which was a horse in a different yard. Though, as somebody said above, posssibly both horses ate something at Burghley which caused the problem.

In terms of other drug incidents, the only ones I can recall are Coral Cove (traced to medication administered by GB team vet) and Red Mills in Ireland where a lot of racehorses ate a batch of contaminated feed.


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## firm (17 October 2013)

I was taught years ago Periwinkle is poisonous to horses. I can't imagine pros allowing horses to graze it in hand or be turned out with it.  I have periwinkle growing on a bank near where I sometimes hand graze the horses, they never go near it but I know they shouldn't.


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## star (17 October 2013)

Jock's team regularly post photos of Promise out in the field covered in mud after big events. Whether he could have eaten something from the field that cross reacted with the test is not for us to say. Pretty sure Jock is now testing every inch of Promise's paddock in that hope though.


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## squiz22 (17 October 2013)

When will the results from the B test be provided? I am sorry if this has already been posted. I've just joined this 11 page thread!!  

I believe in innocent until proven guilty and shall withhold judgement until then. If its proven that the horse was illegally given this then its truly sad all round. He'd be CRAAAZZZYYYYY  to do such a thing and risk everything.


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## TarrSteps (17 October 2013)

Just to clarify, this is not a criminal or even civil matter, it's a contravention of the rules of sport. The only 'accusation' is riding a horse with a positive test for a banned substance. Equestrian sports are a bit trickier because of welfare issues but it's essentially as if Jock and Kevin's sporting equipment was found to be tampered with. So IF the horse has a banned substance in its system it will be eliminated, regardless of how that happened. The rider's punishment in such a case CAN be influenced by mitigating factors but the FEI is not under obligation to investigate forever until a cause can be found.   Obviously finding an explanation helps the rider but it won't change the results of the test.

Someone mentioned Ben Johnson in a conversation about drugging. His case was interesting as he was given the drugs by his trusted trainer and there was some debate if he even fully understood what he was given.  But he look them and them's the rules.

Btw, the FEI is also not connected to law enforcement. Even if an athlete tests positive for an illegal drug, no charges will be filed, same as with any workplace drug test.

As to Jock's career, I'm sure he will be fine. He is STILL a great jockey, he is STILL a nice guy.


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## MiaBella (17 October 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			Btw, the FEI is also not connected to law enforcement. Even if an athlete tests positive for an illegal drug, no charges will be filed, same as with any workplace drug test.

As to Jock's career, I'm sure he will be fine. He is STILL a great jockey, he is STILL a nice guy.
		
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True but now there will be the rumour mill that will follow him and there is potentially the loss of his prize money from Burghley and of course the loss of the opportunity to go for the Grand Slam (the winnings from that could be life changing). There is also the loss to the sport (the Grand Slam does help put it in the headlines and gain media interest which also gains sponsorship).  

It could also have a direct impact on his career - a suspension (which if proven could be up to 2years) has the potential to end his career, which would be a great shame.


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## Lolo (17 October 2013)

I don't think it would end a career, really. People do far worse and come back without a problem- look at Matthew Wright, who was actually arrested for his actions and yet was entered for Burghley this year didn't seem to drop many owners. Ultimately, he's a great jockey and has gotten results.


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## FlaxenPony05 (17 October 2013)

Really interesting thread about this on Chronicle of the Horse Forums if anyone is interested.


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## mle22 (17 October 2013)

MiaBella said:



			It could also have a direct impact on his career - a suspension (which if proven could be up to 2years) has the potential to end his career, which would be a great shame.
		
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It didn't do Cian O'Connor a lot of harm in the longer term!


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## TarrSteps (17 October 2013)

I'm not saying it's fun times and frolicking puppies.  Just that people keep talking about guilt and innocence and proving this or that.when, even IF - IF - the B sample is positive we may still never know what went down. 

Those nice horsesb of Jane Clark's Ben Mahr has? They are with him because the previous rider had a horse test positive for cocaine. No explanation - and almost certainly accidental as it doesn't even work on horses apparently - but that is immaterial. 

My point is that even if the test is positive, people in the know will not necessarily think the worst of Jock and Kevin


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## popsdosh (17 October 2013)

Lolo said:



			I don't think it would end a career, really. People do far worse and come back without a problem- look at Matthew Wright, who was actually arrested for his actions and yet was entered for Burghley this year didn't seem to drop many owners. Ultimately, he's a great jockey and has gotten results.
		
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Matthew was not banned for two years ,what owner will wait two years to see their horses run again and how does he survive in horses in the mean time. It will not be easy for him. I am afraid in the eyes of the FEI you are guilty as soon as the A sample comes back positive,the B sample is there as a check(that the rider can choose to check if they wish) and as far as I am aware you can choose which is which at sampling as the sample is simply split at collection.


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## JFTDWS (17 October 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			Just that people keep talking about guilt and innocence and proving this or that.when, even IF - IF - the B sample is positive we may still never know what went down.
		
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On a scientific level though, there must be an explanation and the pursuit of that would drive me crazy, were I in his shoes.  It's bugging me that an explanation will probably never be demonstrated, and realistically, it's nothing to do with me!  I don't like unanswered questions...  

It also bothers me when people present findings like this as incontrivertable fact - it's not that uncommon for tests to be unrepeatable (though reasonably unusual in this context).  Just because the FEI respond to the results instantly doesn't mean that the secondary test or any further investigation is a formality - until the matter is resolved it's pretty rubbish to assume he was careless about the management of the horse, was intentionally drugging it, or indeed anything else.  If he's banned, he's banned and folk can believe what they like, but it seems only fair to give him a chance to come up with some evidence to the contrary, if it can be brought into existence.  (does that even make sense?)

But as you say, it's not the end of the world (though it may well feel like it now to JP).


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## TarrSteps (17 October 2013)

In the case of a positive test, there is a hearing and the athlete has the opportunity to defend or explain. Who was the showjumper who had problems with contaminated feed? That dragged on for ages until they finally figured out what happened. 

The idea that an athlete with a positive test is suspended while the results are checked is not just FEI protocol, it's common to most sports, at least amateur ones. There is no legal right to play a sport. And, come to think of it, the same thing can happen in workplace situations. Jock and Kevin are 'on leave' until the situation is resolved. 

The only reason I bring this up is that there seems to be the feeling that the FEI is being terribly unfair or implying guilt by their actions. But this is not the case. Lots of people get accused of things and are then exonerated. But you also have to separate out the horse from the rider. If the horse is positive, it loses the result. But, even if that happens, the only thing the rider is 'guilty' of is not taking due care.


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## oldvic (17 October 2013)

Even if the outcome goes against Jock, I very much doubt he will starve. He does after all have a trade other than horses and he can always ride in his spare time. He would be a very useful schooling jockey and he could bring on some young horses. In the grand scheme of things, up to 2 years out is not really a huge deal. He is 29 years old, a mere child in eventing terms where the world number one is over 50!! He may not think it at the moment but there have been harder things to overcome.


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## Thistle (18 October 2013)

If a rider is banned, is that across all disiplines or could an eventer go dressage or SJ?


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## Amymay (18 October 2013)

FlaxenPony05 said:



			Really interesting thread about this on Chronicle of the Horse Forums if anyone is interested.
		
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Do you have a link?


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## cptrayes (18 October 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			If the horse is positive, it loses the result. But, even if that happens, the only thing the rider is 'guilty' of is not taking due care.
		
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I'm not saying this rider is, but it's possible for the rider to be guilty of deliberate use of a drug to enhance the performance of the horse, not just an accident in the management of the horse.


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## TarrSteps (18 October 2013)

cptrayes said:



			I'm not saying this rider is, but it's possible for the rider to be guilty of deliberate use of a drug to enhance the performance of the horse, not just an accident in the management of the horse.
		
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Of course it is. And no doubt it has happened. I'm just saying that, as per the rules of sport, the responsibility for a positive test rests with the rider, regardless of why the test is positive. If the athlete can show how the test came to be positive through a mistake or something outside of their control, such as improperly labeled feed, then that will be looked on favourably. If not, too bad.  Some people seem to be expecting the FEI to launch a CSI-style investigation to get 'answers' and I'm saying don't hold your breath, regardless of what happens with the second sample.

And, to be clear, if worst comes to worst he will be suspended not banned. As ov says, people do recover from these things. Look at Eric Lamaze! Heck, even Barney Ward is still working, even if he can't go to the horse shows.

Of course it's a horrible situation, which ever way it goes. But hyperbole never helps


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## JFTDWS (18 October 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			Some people seem to be expecting the FEI to launch a CSI-style investigation to get 'answers' and I'm saying don't hold your breath, regardless of what happens with the second sample.
		
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I never said that.  I don't expect the FEI to investigate beyond confirming the B sample and listening to any evidence JP can find before they come to their decision.  I've made a number of comments about investigation, so I assume that's partly aimed at me - but you misunderstand me - I don't think the onus is on the FEI to investigate.  But if I were JP, and knew the horse hadn't been given anything banned, I'd want to have that investigation done myself, though it wouldn't be financially feasible or viable in the timescale he will have.

The comments speculating about the possible causes are interesting (well they are to me, but as I say, I come at this as a scientist and categorically not as an eventer or anyone with any particular affiliation to the sport beyond spectating).  I do want answers because I want to know how "good" the test is (and not just "the FEI use it so it must be OK"), and I'm interested to know potential confounding factors and environmental sources of the drug itself (and similarly shaped molecules which could affect the result).  I don't expect that a satisfactory investigation will be done, or that it will affect the long term outcome, I'm just curious.


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## TarrSteps (18 October 2013)

It wasn't actually aimed at you, JFTD.  I just think there is too much confusion between 'rule' and 'law' and over what protection of a level playing field actually means in application. The real benefit in situations like this is to make the rest of us examine our own attitudes and practices. 

It will be interesting to see how it all plays out.


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## JFTDWS (18 October 2013)

In which case, my humble apologies for my narcissistic outburst


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## TarrSteps (18 October 2013)

It's not all about you. Quite often it's about me!


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## JFTDWS (18 October 2013)

I am just not prepared to accept that, TS! *flounce*.


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## Honey08 (22 October 2013)

Interesting update on Clifton Eventer's facebook page.  Too long to really summarise and don't know how to do a link, but they have hired a top scientist to investigate possible ways it could have got into the system.  There are also (how I read it) little shots at the FEI on the guilty until proven innocent aspect and also the security at top events and access to the horses.


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## JFTDWS (22 October 2013)

This one?  I'm guessing, since it's been shared through multiple public pages on fb, it's not too much of a breach of internet etiquette to quote it here...  




			Update from Frances Stead, Clifton Eventers

Sunday, 20 October 2013

Subsequent to the indefinite suspension of Jock Paget and Kevin McNab following the positive 'A' sample results of their two Clifton horses tested at the Land Rover Burghley Horse Trials, we plan to bring you weekly updates on how we are all working to clear their names. This is the first of those updates.

Just to recap, less than a week ago we received notification from the FEI of a positive 'A' sample result for the banned substance Reserpine, a sedative, for both Clifton Promise and Clifton Pinot, who were competing at the Land Rover Burghley Horse Trials.

This was understandably an enormous shock to ourselves and both riders (Jock Paget of New Zealand for Clifton Promise who won Burghley and Kevin McNab of Australia who finished 14th). We immediately stated categorically that none of the relevant parties involved with these horses, including ourselves and both riders, had taken any actions with the intent of administering any prohibited substances. This position and statement will not alter at all in the future, as it is a fact that time cannot change.

In the days that followed the original announcement many people have contacted us and the riders to express their support at this difficult time. I would like to express my sincere thanks to them all. The fact there is such a groundswell of goodwill towards us is very much appreciated.

Obviously after the shock and disbelief of the initial news, we knew we had a big task on our hands to prove both riders' innocence, and since then the team has been working tirelessly on that objective.

The start point of the FEI's policy is the opposite to normal law process &#8211; effectively both riders (as the 'person responsible' for each horse) are 'guilty until proven innocent', rather than the usual 'innocent until proven guilty'. Therefore, if it is confirmed there was Reserpine in the blood of these two horses, the onus is on them to prove how it got there. With this as the start point, we have already commenced many avenues of investigation:

1) We have asked the FEI for the level of Reserpine in the horses' 'A' sample blood. This was not in the information from them advising that the substance had been found. Whilst we accept that this is a banned substance under FEI rules at any amount, knowing the relative concentration is particularly important to help us understand how and when it might have entered their systems.

As a comparison, think about 'drink driving'. With highly sophisticated diagnostic analysis, such as is used by the FEI for its testing, it is likely the presence of alcohol could be detected in anyone who had drunk a single glass of wine or a pint of beer more than a week earlier. This would show up as positive under a 'zero tolerance' evaluation of alcohol. However, the same result of 'presence of alcohol' would show up if the person had consumed two bottles of wine or eight pints of beer a few hours earlier. Knowing which of these two extremes the alcohol reading showed would certainly help in finding the full story of any drink driving incident. Reserpine is a 'zero tolerance' substance with the FEI, so any level found, however small, would lead to a positive finding.

2) We have employed an expert scientist to help analyse the various sources of possible contamination that we have identified. As those involved with high level equine athletes will know, they take a great deal more into their bodies than just grass! As a result, this is a very expansive and complex exercise, and even then it is probably impossible to cover every possible source, but we hope to cover as many as we can and as thoroughly as we can.

3) A week ago, none of us had actually heard of Reserpine, let alone knew anything about it. However, we are becoming increasingly knowledgeable by the day. To this end, we would like to thank all those of you that have sent us information about this substance. Reserpine is a very long acting sedative. It remains in the body for weeks if not months (scientifically it has a half-life of 11 days). It's in commonly-found grassland and hedgerows plants in the UK, and so it could be grazed naturally or get into hay. It is also apparently used in several human medications, allowing the possibility, for example, that a person using one of these could have contaminated the horses indirectly and unintentionally.

Furthermore, we have been told there are several other substances that are very similar to Reserpine in their scientific profile and these could apparently be mistaken in analysis for Reserpine. We are looking at how any possible incorrect identification could be clarified.

On top of the extensive investigative work we are undertaking, we are also well aware of the many comments that have arisen about the weakness of security systems at top Eventing competitions. It has always been a very friendly and trusting sport &#8211; one of the things that attracts owners like ourselves to it. Burghley is no different to the other top 4-stars (I have regularly attended all six of them): all you need is to be issued with the required coloured wristband. Anyone wearing one of these then has access to the whole stable area at any time of day or night, with (as far as I am aware) the only 'shut down time' being for a few hours the night after cross country. It is common for complete strangers to ask to talk and pat a horse that they may have no connection with, and not surprisingly, Clifton Promise in particular was very popular.

I would like to confirm that Clifton Eventers, Jock Paget and Kevin McNab are firm supporters of all policies that prevent the use of any substances that enhance the performance of any horse. We all want a clean sport and a level playing field for competition. It is the only fair way for the best combination to become the winners on the day.

I think everyone has already worked out that in this instance there was in actual fact no 'enhanced performance' by a horse being asked to jump round the Burghley cross country course &#8211; probably the toughest in the world &#8211; while sedated with Reserpine. Similarly, I cannot think of any rider wanting to come out to try and show jump clear the next day on a tired horse with the added factor of any sedative in the horse's system. However, Clifton Promise's blood sample was taken after the prize giving at the conclusion of the whole competition, and it is this test sample that allegedly contained Reserpine at that time. Logic says that this is the last thing the rider or anyone associated with the horse would want. However, it would appear that logic does not come into the evaluation of this matter.

This is a tough time for all involved with these two Clifton horses, and in particular for Jock and Kevin. These are two of the most honest, hard-working and ethical people anyone could have the pleasure of being involved with. We are all confident the truth will come out and we will find the solution to this mystery. If Reserpine is confirmed to have been in the blood of these two horses at Burghley we look forward very much to finding out how it got there, as we all know it was not a deliberate action by anyone associated with these lovely horses.

On a final positive note: whilst taking a break today from the incessant telephone calls and the planning of how we respond to the allegations, we took our dogs for a walk and found a huge number of four-leaf clovers. We hope that, combined with the our exhaustive and diligent investigations, these will bring us luck in solving this complex and perplexing puzzle.

Thanks again everyone for all your support, help and useful information. The team is very positive and strong, and it is very confident that we will get to the bottom of this and that everyone's name will be cleared.
		
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## sportsmansB (22 October 2013)

Yes I read that update too. They are doing the very expensive investigations themselves mentioned above. 
I thought that the update was very well written and definitely got their points of view across- it was easy to see that Frances Stead has her roots as CEO of an international business, it came across extremely professional and if I was Jock I would be delighted that she was the one helping fight my corner!!


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## Honey08 (22 October 2013)

Yes that was it.


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## JFTDWS (22 October 2013)

sportsmansB said:



			if I was Jock I would be delighted that she was the one helping fight my corner!!
		
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Me too.  I was impressed with the comprehensive and tidy nature of the update...

(I wouldn't have re-posted it on here otherwise...)


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