# Should i pay the bill?



## Veegeeay (8 May 2017)

I have a horse on loan who has an injury that my vet has given a very poor prognosis for.  I have taken vets advice at every stage and given all treatment necessary up to this point. The injury happened at my yard, though it is a field injury he was in my care.  The horse is putting weight on his leg but is noticeably lame at walk and hopping in trot.  He will rest that leg at every opportunity and struggles to get down to roll.  

The vet doesn't think this horse will recover without surgery and the he is 20 years old and uninsured so this is not an option.

The only way to know whether field rest would resolve the issue is by having an x-ray done.

If this was my horse I would have decided pts.  The owner initially agreed and the hunt was booked for today, she even paid the money into my account to cover the fee but at the last minute she was offered free livery for 6 months and has decided she now needs the x-ray to be sure that she is doing the right thing.

She wants me to cover the cost of the x-ray.

I understand her feelings and wanting to give her horse every chance and if the vet thought there was a possibility he would recover in the field then I would be offering to help, however that is not the case.  Likelihood is he will be in pain (He is already on 2 Bute) until such time as someone makes the decision to put him to rest.

however I need to know if I am liable for paying the cost of the x-ray when if it were my horse I would have made the decision to pts.  

I used the sample bhs loan contract as a template and did not change clause 5 or clause 2 (save for entering a period of 30 days).  Legally I believe I am not liable, however I do not like bad feeling so want to be sure!!  I have an appt this afternoon with legal advice but would like others' views.

2	TERMINATION
2.1	The loan will terminate in the following circumstances:
2.1.1	either party giving [insert number] days notice in writing to the other; or
2.1.2	if either party is in breach of any of the terms of this agreement, unless the breach is remedied within [30] days of it taking place; or
2.1.3	at the end of the Period without the need for any further notice
2.1.4	If the Horse does not fit the description given by the Owner or is not fit for the purpose required by the Borrower as set out in clause 3.3 overleaf
2.1.5	On the death of the Horse
2.2	On termination the Borrower shall be responsible for returning the Horse to the Owner.

5	INJURY/ILLNESS/DEATH OF HORSE
5.1	In the event that the Horse sustains an injury or develops an illness that will prevent it from fulfilling the purpose set out in clause 3.3 for a period exceeding 30 days the Borrower may terminate the agreement and return the horse.
5.2	In the event of the Horses death the Owner will be responsible for any euthanasia and disposal expenses.


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## Luci07 (8 May 2017)

Can  you use the money from the hunt coming out to pay for the xray? or is there a: a big difference b: she expects you to refund this and pay for the xray?

I would not pay  for this personally as I had taken vets advice and horse was deemed to be in pain.


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## Veegeeay (8 May 2017)

There is an additional £80 to cover the x-ray which I would happily cover but then if he needs pts she would still need to pay that & she says she has no money at all.


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## SEL (8 May 2017)

Have you said to the owner that you think she should cover the cost?


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## kamili (8 May 2017)

As Luci said, if the hunt fee is less or equal to the fee for the x-ray tell the owner you will be using that to pay for the x-rays, I'd suggest doing it in writing.

Go back to her and clarify, as it might just be crossed wires...


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## Luci07 (8 May 2017)

sorry . .. I am getting confused - I thought she had already paid this money (the PTS money) into your account?


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## Veegeeay (8 May 2017)

She paid £200 into my account which is the cost of the hunt.  The x-rays would cost £280 thereabouts.  There are no crossed wires trust me!!  I have had messages from her friends who believe I should pay.  I'm very reluctant to use her money without her permission and even if I did she could then tell me I had to cover the cost of the pts.


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## little_critter (8 May 2017)

Could you split it? Say she pays the x rays (as she wants them) and if the decision is made to PTS then you pay the hunt fee (as you initially wanted to PTS)?
That way you each pay for the outcome YOU wanted.


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## Red-1 (8 May 2017)

If the terms of the agreement state that the loaner (you) is responsible for vets bills relating to an accident then yes, I think you should pay. I think you can give to 30 day notice to return also, but for the next 30 days the responsibility is yours. The horse obviously can't be left in pain not knowing if rest will cure it for 30 days, hence needing X ray and probable box rest and pain relief, nursing etc. 

The £200 was clearly to pay for the hunt, and IMO should not be used for anything else without her agreement. 

I think that insurance is most important in this case, as if you agree to cover vets fees while the horse is in your care then you are agreeing to an unknown debt. So, I would give the 30 day notice, and give appropriate care until that time is up.


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## poiuytrewq (8 May 2017)

If she can't afford an X-ray then can she really afford to have the horse back? 
Free livery is great yes, but it's far from the only cost of horse ownership. 
I think I'd refuse. The decision was made and agreed by both parties..... however you are liable for vet fees I guess. 
£280 to X-ray a leg seems a lot?


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## Clodagh (8 May 2017)

I would, in your case, expect to pay all bills relating to this accident. I have a horse out on loan who recently had to go to NEH for x rays, turns out the loaner also hadn't taken out any insurance and had no money. I now have to cover that bill and get the horse PTS and although this was not a field injury I am still pretty peeved.


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## Annagain (8 May 2017)

I think it's possible to argue this both ways. Meanwhile the poor horse is suffering. Ultimately, £300 isn't a huge amount to pay to ensure an animal you must care about is either given a chance to recover (with owner) or PTS. I'd pay it and be happy that I'd put the horse's welfare over an argument over who pays.


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## honetpot (8 May 2017)

Tough one.
I would pay for the X-ray, but also give her the 30 day notice, so then she has responsibility for any further treatment, and decisions.
  I used to loan out my old ponies who were still worth money but not really insurable for vets fees. I just used to put a figure in, usually about £500 for injuries , at the time, that they had to pay that covered expenses and then they came home. Accidents happen but if you have not been negligent its seems hard be landed with a huge vets bill, for something who may end up having a poor quality of life.


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## Veegeeay (8 May 2017)

Red-1 said:



			If the terms of the agreement state that the loaner (you) is responsible for vets bills relating to an accident then yes, I think you should pay. I think you can give to 30 day notice to return also, but for the next 30 days the responsibility is yours. The horse obviously can't be left in pain not knowing if rest will cure it for 30 days, hence needing X ray and probable box rest and pain relief, nursing etc. 

The £200 was clearly to pay for the hunt, and IMO should not be used for anything else without her agreement. 

I think that insurance is most important in this case, as if you agree to cover vets fees while the horse is in your care then you are agreeing to an unknown debt. So, I would give the 30 day notice, and give appropriate care until that time is up.
		
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He has already had 7 weeks field rest and the lameness is getting worse. This is not about money from my point of view, if my vet told me he wasn't sure or that there was a good chance field rest would help then I would cover the cost of the x-rays without question.  
It's my vets opinion that rest will not cure the problem.  I have covered the cost of the vets bills & treatment up to now with no problem, it is only because I want to take the advice of the vet and stop further treatment that it will be a problem.


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## TheHairyOne (8 May 2017)

I am sorry, but I think you are very lucky the owner isn't insisting that you pay for the surgery to potentially fix it.  If the horse was fit and healthy 10 year old I certainly would want to give the horse every chance and I am not sure the responses on this thread would be the same, and maybe the owner feels this way about her cherished 20 year old!

If you didn't amend the rest of the contract 4.1.8 reads:
The Borrower agrees to be responsible for ensuring prompt and required veterinary treatment by a registered and qualified veterinary surgeon at all times. The liability for payment of the aforesaid veterinary treatment lies solely with the Borrower. 

As you said this is a field injury and without having checked what's actually wrong you and the owner don't know if the horse will recover (though it is obviously unlikely to be within the 30 days), but as far as I can see you are 100% responsible for all diagnostics and treatment whilst he is in your care and in most cases with horses sooner rather than later is better.

Have the xrays done, pay the bill, if you get another loan horse get insurance.  This is one of the places where I think loaning can go very wrong...


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## Veegeeay (8 May 2017)

TheHairyOne said:



			I am sorry, but I think you are very lucky the owner isn't insisting that you pay for the surgery to potentially fix it.  If the horse was fit and healthy 10 year old I certainly would want to give the horse every chance and I am not sure the responses on this thread would be the same, and maybe the owner feels this way about her cherished 20 year old!

If you didn't amend the rest of the contract 4.1.8 reads:
The Borrower agrees to be responsible for ensuring prompt and required veterinary treatment by a registered and qualified veterinary surgeon at all times. The liability for payment of the aforesaid veterinary treatment lies solely with the Borrower. 

As you said this is a field injury and without having checked what's actually wrong you and the owner don't know if the horse will recover (though it is obviously unlikely to be within the 30 days), but as far as I can see you are 100% responsible for all diagnostics and treatment whilst he is in your care and in most cases with horses sooner rather than later is better.

Have the xrays done, pay the bill, if you get another loan horse get insurance.  This is one of the places where I think loaning can go very wrong...
		
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She has categorically said that she doesn't want him to go through surgery so that's not the issue as originally stated.  Money is not the problem from my side.  If it was my own cherished horse I would (and have) made the same decision


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## ossy (8 May 2017)

If the xrays are really needed to know what the extent of the injury is then how has the vet actually made his diagnosis and prognosis.  As the owner i would expect the loanee to come back to me with some proper investigations and that gave an informed decision on the prognosis.  So if i was the owner then yes I'd want the x-rays done and paid for by loanee.  As loanee get the x-rays done give your 30 days notice and go from there.


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## Veegeeay (8 May 2017)

ossy said:



			If the xrays are really needed to know what the extent of the injury is then how has the vet actually made his diagnosis and prognosis.  As the owner i would expect the loanee to come back to me with some proper investigations and that gave an informed decision on the prognosis.  So if i was the owner then yes I'd want the x-rays done and paid for by loanee.  As loanee get the x-rays done give your 30 days notice and go from there.
		
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They are not really needed, more of an option.  Based on the fact that he hasn't improved with 7 weeks rest (& in fact is getting worse) he is in my vets opinion unlikely to recover with simply more rest.


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## Alibear (8 May 2017)

In a not too dissimilar situation I was given pressure by a third party to put my horse to sleep as their vet said so having examined my horse and my horse was getting worse. 
I refused took horse for a referral and abscess was found and the horse was fine after treatment, original vet was very apologetic and we all still get along. 
Whilst I understand the injury in this case if different, I can understand the owner wanting x-rays.


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## Veegeeay (8 May 2017)

Alibear said:



			In a not too dissimilar situation I was given pressure by a third party to put my horse to sleep as their vet said so having examined my horse and my horse was getting worse. 
I refused took horse for a referral and abscess was found and the horse was fine after treatment, original vet was very apologetic and we all still get along. 
Whilst I understand the injury in this case if different, I can understand the owner wanting x-rays.
		
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I do understand but would you expect the person advising pts to pay for the x-rays?  If the boot were on the other foot then I would accept the loanee has done everything necessary & if I wanted further exploratory treatment (2nd opinion, x-rays, bone scans etc) it would be down to me


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## Sussexbythesea (8 May 2017)

ossy said:



			If the xrays are really needed to know what the extent of the injury is then how has the vet actually made his diagnosis and prognosis.  As the owner i would expect the loanee to come back to me with some proper investigations and that gave an informed decision on the prognosis.  So if i was the owner then yes I'd want the x-rays done and paid for by loanee.  As loanee get the x-rays done give your 30 days notice and go from there.
		
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Agree - It's difficult to say without knowing really what the injury is supposed to be. I would want to know why an x-ray wasn't done earlier to see the extent of the problem in the first place?  I certainly would not want to put my 22yr old down just because he is old without knowing the full picture.


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## SpringArising (8 May 2017)

Veegeeay said:



			I do understand but would you expect the person advising pts to pay for the x-rays?  If the boot were on the other foot then I would accept the loanee has done everything necessary & if I wanted further exploratory treatment (2nd opinion, x-rays, bone scans etc) it would be down to me
		
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This definitely.


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## Laika (8 May 2017)

Sussexbythesea said:



			Agree - It's difficult to say without knowing really what the injury is supposed to be. I would want to know why an x-ray wasn't done earlier to see the extent of the problem in the first place?  I certainly would not want to put my 22yr old down just because he is old without knowing the full picture.
		
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Whole heartedly agree with this. In my opinion, I would get a second opinion from another vet to make sure this was being fully investigated. I'm quite surprised they haven't done an x-ray in the first place as this is a part of any thorough investigation with regards to limbs. I certainly wouldn't put my beloved animal to sleep without checking everything first. 

I'm so sorry you've been put in a horrible situation here, as accidents frequently do happen in fields. However, I would go ahead and get this x-ray booked in as soon as possible so you and the owner can come to the correct conclusion.


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## ossy (8 May 2017)

Veegeeay said:



			She has categorically said that she doesn't want him to go through surgery so that's not the issue as originally stated.  Money is not the problem from my side.  If it was my own cherished horse I would (and have) made the same decision
		
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Veegeeay said:



			I do understand but would you expect the person advising pts to pay for the x-rays?  If the boot were on the other foot then I would accept the loanee has done everything necessary & if I wanted further exploratory treatment (2nd opinion, x-rays, bone scans etc) it would be down to me
		
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I don't consider x-rays as further treatment though they are so easy and routine these days, as someone else said i don't understand why they weren't part of the original investigation.


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## FfionWinnie (8 May 2017)

If she has no money how will she provide free livery?  Has she seen the horse recently?  I think you need to phone her and explain you believe the horse to be getting worse and you are unable to watch it decline. Next time have insurance tho. I have two on loan. One insured one not. One is old (not insured) I know if he had a catastrophic injury he would be pts. The other is young and would be potentially worth operating on plus her owner will have her back. You really need to have that bit decided before something happens.


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## Veegeeay (8 May 2017)

Thank you everyone, I have offered half the cost of the x-rays but on the provision that something happens the next day, whether that be pts peacefully or taken back to her care so I don't have to watch him suffer, I think that's fair.


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## ester (8 May 2017)

What is the current diagnosis from the vet?


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## paddy555 (8 May 2017)

personally i would have paid the full cost of the x rays 7 weeks ago. The incident happened whilst under your care. 
I could not have stood back and watched it lame for 7 weeks and not got it x rayed and paid for them whilst I was responsible.


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## ihatework (8 May 2017)

Not read replies but I don't care what contract says. Horse got injured in your care, morally for me the least you can do is pay for an X-ray.


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## Equi (8 May 2017)

In my view you did what was required Of you and have the money agreed to get him pts. She's now changed her mind cause she has an offer of free livery so if I was you I'd be sending him back with the £200 and saying good luck old chap. 

Alternatively if you care about what will happen to the horse, pay the £80 and then get him pts as that's most likely anyway.


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## ester (8 May 2017)

paddy555 said:



			personally i would have paid the full cost of the x rays 7 weeks ago. The incident happened whilst under your care. 
I could not have stood back and watched it lame for 7 weeks and not got it x rayed and paid for them whilst I was responsible.
		
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ihatework said:



			Not read replies but I don't care what contract says. Horse got injured in your care, morally for me the least you can do is pay for an X-ray.
		
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I agree with both of you really, which is why I am wondering what the vet had diagnosed and recommending PTS for given the lack of work up that seems to have happened. It doesn't make sense that you would just let something get worse?


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## SusieT (8 May 2017)

In this case I would x-ray the horse. I would also pay for all costs to diagnose the horse within reason (x-ray, scan, nervce blocks) as the injury happened in my care - if the horse is long term lame then there is a dicussion to be had.

To not pay is very cheap imo


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## deicinmerlyn (8 May 2017)

paddy555 said:



			personally i would have paid the full cost of the x rays 7 weeks ago. The incident happened whilst under your care. 
I could not have stood back and watched it lame for 7 weeks and not got it x rayed and paid for them whilst I was responsible.
		
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This


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## stormox (8 May 2017)

Why not just let her have the horse back, she can then try the free livery for however long she wants and the horse will either recover, or stay the same after which as she now has care of the horse she cannot decide what to do.


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## scats (8 May 2017)

How many weeks ago did the injury occur and has the horse been hopping lame ever since, despite bute?  I'm struggling to understand why an X-ray or a decision in some way wasn't made earlier for the sake of the animal.


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## Amymay (8 May 2017)

scats said:



			How many weeks ago did the injury occur and has the horse bend hopping lame ever since, despite bute?  I'm struggling to understand why an X-ray or a decision in some way wasn't made earlier for the sake of the animal.
		
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Got to agree.


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## Honey08 (8 May 2017)

If money isn't a problem for you, which you state, then I don't understand why you haven't already had him xrayed to find out a full story on the issue.  Out of care for the horse and respect for the owner.   And I agree with those wondering why the horse has been left so long if he's getting worse.  I think you're letting the horse down.  I can understand deciding to send the horse back (that's why I'd never send a horse out on loan, particularly without insurance, as the loaner can damage it and dump it).


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## Sussexbythesea (8 May 2017)

Honey08 said:



			If money isn't a problem for you, which you state, then I don't understand why you haven't already had him xrayed to find out a full story on the issue.  Out of care for the horse and respect for the owner.   And I agree with those wondering why the horse has been left so long if he's getting worse.  I think you're letting the horse down.  I can understand deciding to send the horse back (that's why I'd never send a horse out on loan, particularly without insurance, as the loaner can damage it and dump it).
		
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Totally agree the poor horse is the one that's suffering and all the OP seems to care about is who should pay for what.


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## Fiona (8 May 2017)

We have a pony on loan for my son,  and he went lame behind last summer. Within the week,  he had been to the vet hospital and had a full work up including lots of x-rays so we knew what we were dealing  with..

All paid by myself and my husband. .

Fiona


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## Buddy'sMum (8 May 2017)

ihatework said:



			...I don't care what contract says. Horse got injured in your care, morally for me the least you can do is pay for an X-ray.
		
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Yep.


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## GirlFriday (8 May 2017)

Sorry OP but as far as I can see until you have (given notice and) returned the pony you would be responsible for the bill. It isn't completely clear to me from the exert you've given of the contract if you need to give more notice now the horse has been off work for more than 30 days. So, to avoid bad feeling, I'd simply give notice tomorrow and return the pony in 30 days. Until that point you cover all bills. It doesn't sound as though you want continued responsibility for the animal so I'd be looking for you to return it asap.

Moral responsibility is of course a different thing. In that sense I'd sort of think you had some kind of obligation to see pony through treatment and recovery but do understand that could be a long and expensive process with multiple options it might be hard for you to agree with owner.


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## Vodkagirly (8 May 2017)

SusieT said:



			In this case I would x-ray the horse. I would also pay for all costs to diagnose the horse within reason (x-ray, scan, nervce blocks) as the injury happened in my care - if the horse is long term lame then there is a dicussion to be had.

To not pay is very cheap imo
		
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This.


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## zaminda (8 May 2017)

My 21 year old mare injured herself on Easter Saturday. The vet came out, and it was decided to take her to the hospital as the injury was near a joint. She stayed there a week, and mercifully didn't need surgery. I can't understand why proper diagnosis wasn't done at the time of the injury, or what sort of vet would be talking about surgery without proper diagnostics.


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## Mike007 (9 May 2017)

zaminda said:



			My 21 year old mare injured herself on Easter Saturday. The vet came out, and it was decided to take her to the hospital as the injury was near a joint. She stayed there a week, and mercifully didn't need surgery. I can't understand why proper diagnosis wasn't done at the time of the injury, or what sort of vet would be talking about surgery without proper diagnostics.
		
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Trust me! there are a fair number of such vets about, The ability to absorb and spout out facts over a seven year course does not necessarily mean that one is a practical and observant ,thoughtful vet. I recall a horse with a field injury. Over the course of 18 months the animal would go sound ,they would try to work it ,it would immediately go chronically lame. All sorts of hi tech equipment was used to diagnose. BUT NO ONE DID AN OLD FASHIONED X RAY, I have a copy of the x ray when it was finally done.It clearly shows a fence staple embedded in the tendon sheath!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Theocat (9 May 2017)

The horse is twenty. Depending on how long the OP has had him it might have been difficult to get insurance, so I think that's a moot point.

The injury happened seven weeks ago. The vet has been involved throughout, and does not think the horse will recover without surgery. Surgery isn't an option because of the insurance - and I'm not sure it's something to put a twenty year old through, anyway.

OP and vet seem to think putting the horse down is therefore the best way forward for the sake of the horse. Owner agrees to the extent of paying the money and the hunt being booked, but decides a time the last moment - because she's suddenly in a position, with free livery, to take the horse back - that she wants to do x-rays. As surgery still won't be an option, it will be a question of Bute - after almost two months of Bute already whilst the horse deteriorates - and more rest.

I'm really not sure what the X-ray is supposed to achieve: presumably it will either show surgery is required - in which case it sounds as though the owner wants to try rest anyway - or that it isn't required - which still just means rest! 

If the vet thinks surgery is necessary for recovery, and that all an x-ray will do is confirm that, and surgery isn't an option, then why would you x-ray? 

If the horse had more options then I'd agree that's the OP should pay for diagnostics - but I suspect that would have been done already. But as the only options appear to be put down, or field rest which is, in the vet's opinion, unlikely to work, I can't see that the OP - who has already covered seven weeks of vet care - is morally liable for further costs. 

The owner is lucky, given some of the horror stories, that the OP didn't just give thirty days notice and hand the horse back - or even no notice at all!


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## ycbm (9 May 2017)

SusieT said:



			In this case I would x-ray the horse. I would also pay for all costs to diagnose the horse within reason (x-ray, scan, nervce blocks) as the injury happened in my care - if the horse is long term lame then there is a dicussion to be had.

To not pay is very cheap imo
		
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What a nasty expression to use, 'cheap'.

And 'happened in my care' is not the same as 'was due to my negligence'. 

One of the points of a loan is to be able to return if things like this happen, as is clear in the contact.

The vet is recommending euthanasia, which in my experience is something they don't do easily. We don't know what the injury was, but if soft tissue with no external wound then x rays would be useless. And if bone is involved and months cross tied would be required, that's out, as is an operation. So it's easy to see why none have been done.

I think the OP has been more than reasonable.


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## jumping.jack_flash (9 May 2017)

Don't be tight. Pay for the X-ray / Ultra Sound - as you could be putting a horse to sleep for no real reason that a simple injection could solve. 20 yrs old is NOT old.

Also... here's hoping your not sending the horse to the Hunt live and it is dispatched at home?


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## FfionWinnie (9 May 2017)

jumping.jack_flash said:



			Don't be tight. Pay for the X-ray / Ultra Sound - as you could be putting a horse to sleep for no real reason that a simple injection could solve. 20 yrs old is NOT old.

Also... here's hoping your not sending the horse to the Hunt live and it is dispatched at home?
		
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Fgs 20 IS old in this situation and as for your last comment why on earth would you come out with that. There is nothing in this thread that suggests the lame horse is going to be sent away to be killed. It wouldn't be legal to transport a lame horse for slaughter anyway. 

The only thing the op did wrong was not to have insurance. I've done the same myself. They won't make that mistake again I'm sure.


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## ester (9 May 2017)

Theocat said:



			The horse is twenty. Depending on how long the OP has had him it might have been difficult to get insurance, so I think that's a moot point.

The injury happened seven weeks ago. The vet has been involved throughout, and does not think the horse will recover without surgery. Surgery isn't an option because of the insurance - and I'm not sure it's something to put a twenty year old through, anyway.

OP and vet seem to think putting the horse down is therefore the best way forward for the sake of the horse. Owner agrees to the extent of paying the money and the hunt being booked, but decides a time the last moment - because she's suddenly in a position, with free livery, to take the horse back - that she wants to do x-rays. As surgery still won't be an option, it will be a question of Bute - after almost two months of Bute already whilst the horse deteriorates - and more rest.

*I'm really not sure what the X-ray is supposed to achieve: presumably it will either show surgery is required - in which case it sounds as though the owner wants to try rest anyway - or that it isn't required - which still just means rest! *

If the vet thinks surgery is necessary for recovery, and that all an x-ray will do is confirm that, and surgery isn't an option, then why would you x-ray? 

If the horse had more options then I'd agree that's the OP should pay for diagnostics - but I suspect that would have been done already. But as the only options appear to be put down, or field rest which is, in the vet's opinion, unlikely to work, I can't see that the OP - who has already covered seven weeks of vet care - is morally liable for further costs. 

The owner is lucky, given some of the horror stories, that the OP didn't just give thirty days notice and hand the horse back - or even no notice at all!
		
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I think the intention is that it will show whether rest if feasible or a welfare issue to even try if it is beyond that. It would be easier to comment if we did know what the current diagnosis was though but the OP seems to have gone awol, they haven't even clarified when someone asked regarding if their loan agreement is still the standard wording which would have them responsible for incidents in their care regardless of fault. They could have given notice 7 weeks ago if they wished but didn't. 

I am still pretty shocked that a horse has been lame for 7 weeks and deteriorating and not as far as we know investigate . I am saddened that someone who says money is no issue will not stump up <£300 for a horse they have taken care of to get this sorted asap.


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## alainax (9 May 2017)

I would see it like owner has already gave you the pts money. It's not an extra £80 for X-ray, that's the pts money and is separate. So you pay for the X-ray, as you are responsible for vet costs, and worse case scenario you still have the money in the account to pts.


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## ycbm (9 May 2017)

The loaner is going to either have the horse PTS or return it for field rest. The owner wants the x ray to decide whether the horse should be PTS on vet's current advice or field rested.

I'm baffled in what way the loaner is responsible for paying for an x ray neither she nor her vet wants.

There are plenty of lame horses on rest on vet's advice which have not been x rayed. So this stuff about 'horse has been lame seven weeks already and not properly investigated' is pointless.


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## FfionWinnie (9 May 2017)

alainax said:



			I would see it like owner has already gave you the pts money. It's not an extra £80 for X-ray, that's the pts money and is separate. So you pay for the X-ray, as you are responsible for vet costs, and worse case scenario you still have the money in the account to pts.
		
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Yes I agree with this. The loanee should return the horse to soundness or if that isn't possible, find out what is wrong with it at least and the prognosis.


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## ycbm (9 May 2017)

ester said:



			I am still pretty shocked that a horse has been lame for 7 weeks and deteriorating and not as far as we know investigate . I am saddened that someone who says money is no issue will not stump up <£300 for a horse they have taken care of to get this sorted asap.
		
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Ester they did get it sorted. They had the hunt actually booked to come and put the horse down. It is the owner responsible fur the current delay, not the loaner.


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## ycbm (9 May 2017)

FfionWinnie said:



			Yes I agree with this. The loanee should return the horse to soundness or if that isn't possible, find out what is wrong with it at least and the prognosis.
		
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But she has a prognosis. Vet has told her that the horse is unlikely to recover, even with an operation if one were possible, which for money reasons, it is not.


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## ycbm (9 May 2017)

Are peeler missing this in the first sentence?

'I have a horse on loan who has an injury that my vet has given a very poor prognosis for. I have taken vets advice at every stage and given all treatment necessary up to this point.'


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## Leo Walker (9 May 2017)

I'm pretty sure that legally the contract is deemed to have ended as the owner made arrangements for the horse to be PTS. Surely that would end the contract regardless of whether they then cancelled it.


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## Leo Walker (9 May 2017)

The horse was booked to be PTS and the money was paid by the owner. Surely that cancels the legal contract regardless of anything else?


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## FfionWinnie (9 May 2017)

ycbm said:



			But she has a prognosis. Vet has told her that the horse is unlikely to recover, even with an operation if one were possible, which for money reasons, it is not.
		
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If it was my old horse and I thought rest would fix it I'd take it back and sort it myself. I'd still rather think the loanee should pay for the X-ray tho. In the great scheme of horses a few hundred quid is nothing and it happened when in the loanee's care. Morally if I was the loanee I would feel obliged that the x ray was the final thing to do to lay the matter to rest one way or another. 

It's a similar situation to a pony I sold who very sadly got kicked on the knee fairy soon after I sold it. It was insured and they did go for surgery but unfortunately it was unable to be fixed and was not woken up. It got worse in the time it was waiting for surgery and would have continued to go down hill due to the nature of the injury, had they rested her. 

The x ray told the owner it was surgery or PTS.


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## MiJodsR2BlinkinTite (9 May 2017)

OK so when I put my cob on loan, it was to a BHS training/college yard, and I had to have insurance before he went on loan; plus it was the understanding that even if the injury happened while he was being used by them, I'd be responsible for half of the vet fees.

Whilst I appreciate this is a totally different situation, there are basic principles which I think apply, i.e. usually when a horse goes on loan the owner NOT the loanee, is responsible for paying the insurance. However as this is an old horse, getting insurance in any case would have been prohibitive and/or vets fees would have been excluded anyway, so that doesn't help to clarify the situation one jot!

Secondly, normally the loanee would pay ALL of the vets fees (and other fees) which are incurred as a result of keeping the horse.

In this situation, the lines have become a bit blurred and this is causing a considerable difficulty. 

Owner is obviously strapped for cash, and possibly, just possibly, tho' I'm not saying this IS the case before anyone jumps down my throat, was glad to relieve herself of the responsibility of an aged horse that is bound to be increasingly expensive. OP took on the horse in good faith and was obviously prepared to give it all the care & vet attention necessary, of that there is no doubt.

Now owner has "gone precious" and wants the loanee to spend money on further investigations, possibly have the horse back as she's got free livery for a limited period. But what happens after that would be my concern: does the owner have enough money to (a) pay the very considerable vets fees that will result in future for this horse, whether or not the X-rays are done there will probably be stuff like medication to pay for, more vets fees in future, etc etc, and (b) paying for livery for an old horse which will probably need either Full or Assisted livery. Has the owner taken all this into consideration before making her demands? I am not sure she has TBH.

The loanee (OP) is in a difficult situation and I feel for her dilemma. Personally I cannot see the point of X-rays as IMO that would be unnecessary expense and would only tell everyone what they already know and that is that the time has come for a decision to be made about this horse. It presumably has no more use as a ridden horse, is in pain now??? and the vet is basically saying the time has come for a decision.

The other problem is that, unfortunately, this accident DID happen whilst the horse is in the care of the OP. It happened at her yard, whilst she had custody of the horse. As someone else has said, if this horse were say 10 rather than 20, there would be clamours on here for OP to pay up all bills and look sweet. Just because the horse is 20, does that change that?? Difficult one.

If it were my horse, and I was the owner, with limited finances for future vet care and livery, then however hard that would be, I know what my decision would have to be. 

I think OP that you would do well in this very difficult situation, to at least offer to pay half of the investigative work the owner has requested. Apparently friends of the owner are suggesting that you pay up and look sweet?? Yes it might be a bit of an expense, a useless outlay in your opinion, but the bottom line is that the incident DID occur at your yard, and whilst someone else's horse was in YOUR care, and yes I think I would be a bit devastated in this situation if the loanee refused point-blank to pay anything, if I'm brutally honest.

If this was my horse which I put on loan to someone, I know I'd be very upset indeed, especially if she's reading this on here.......

What an awful situation. Hope the right decisions are made for this poor horse. It unfortunately all too happens that sentimentality gets in the way of making a humane decision for an old friend.


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## Cecile (9 May 2017)

Difficult one really

You say you are taking legal advice and hopefully that will answer your questions

If it were my horse out on loan I would want him/her home to see my own vet and make decisions based on that or if fairly local send my vet there to give me his honest opinion

I sent a driving pony on loan for many years and when the loaners situation changed she came home to me, pony had cushings and a few other related issues at that point and when I later made the decision to put her down my husband went to the vets to pay the bill (I hate those bills coming to my house) and the loaner had already been to the vets and paid the entire bill but she was not responsible for the bill

Everyone is so different, situations are different and people have horses for different reasons, riding/competing and sometimes as a companion horse.

It would seem your vet has given his opinion, put down was agreed on, booked in and money for this paid for and now the owner has changed her mind (Every right to do so) so as I say if the horse was mine I would want him home in this situation, I would see it as the loan is over and the situation and responsibility as mine if I had changed my mind about having the horse put down

My husband would rightly so pull me up and stop me allowing a roller coaster of emotions + changing the goal posts and make me deal with this head on, I assume the owner has had direct contact with the vet who has been in charge of the horse


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## Pearlsasinger (9 May 2017)

Theocat said:



			The horse is twenty. Depending on how long the OP has had him it might have been difficult to get insurance, so I think that's a moot point.

The injury happened seven weeks ago. The vet has been involved throughout, and does not think the horse will recover without surgery. Surgery isn't an option because of the insurance - and I'm not sure it's something to put a twenty year old through, anyway.

OP and vet seem to think putting the horse down is therefore the best way forward for the sake of the horse. Owner agrees to the extent of paying the money and the hunt being booked, but decides a time the last moment - because she's suddenly in a position, with free livery, to take the horse back - that she wants to do x-rays. As surgery still won't be an option, it will be a question of Bute - after almost two months of Bute already whilst the horse deteriorates - and more rest.

I'm really not sure what the X-ray is supposed to achieve: presumably it will either show surgery is required - in which case it sounds as though the owner wants to try rest anyway - or that it isn't required - which still just means rest! 

If the vet thinks surgery is necessary for recovery, and that all an x-ray will do is confirm that, and surgery isn't an option, then why would you x-ray? 

If the horse had more options then I'd agree that's the OP should pay for diagnostics - but I suspect that would have been done already. But as the only options appear to be put down, or field rest which is, in the vet's opinion, unlikely to work, I can't see that the OP - who has already covered seven weeks of vet care - is morally liable for further costs. 

The owner is lucky, given some of the horror stories, that the OP didn't just give thirty days notice and hand the horse back - or even no notice at all!
		
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Very well put!



ycbm said:



			What a nasty expression to use, 'cheap'.

And 'happened in my care' is not the same as 'was due to my negligence'. 

One of the points of a loan is to be able to return if things like this happen, as is clear in the contact.

The vet is recommending euthanasia, which in my experience is something they don't do easily. We don't know what the injury was, but if soft tissue with no external wound then x rays would be useless. And if bone is involved and months cross tied would be required, that's out, as is an operation. So it's easy to see why none have been done.

I think the OP has been more than reasonable.
		
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I agree.
I would tell the owner that as she has changed her mind about pts, she is free to collect the horse, or if she doesn't have transport, that you will deliver him to her free livery. Has she actually spoken to the vet herself? If not that could be helpful.


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## Honey08 (9 May 2017)

It seems like they don't really know what the injury is, so that's why it would be useful to X-ray..It sounds like they're just going off the vets opinion rather than fact.  I would X-ray ( probably not do more) and see if anything is actually broken, if it was I'd PTS, but if not I'd try retiring on a level field if the horse can be made comfortable (back with the owner).  I don't insure my horses but an X-ray is not that expensive.


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## paddy555 (9 May 2017)

there are 2 facts missing in the original post. Firstly we have no idea what happened in the field. No idea if an accident happened which the poster could have avoided by taking more care. It could be the situation for example that the owner now has little choice but to have her horse PTS due to lack of care. Secondly no idea what the injury actually is and little info on the vet diagnosis and how he made the diagnosis. I don't see how a vet could have suggested surgery as an option without more info eg x rays. Possibly they were suggested and OP didn't wish to pay for them or further tests at the time. If I had a vet suggest PTS on a somewhat vague diagnosis I would want a second opinion.  The owner was all set to PTS by the hunt but were they encouraged to do so. Was it a case that on reflection they realised x rays should have been done to get a definitive answer? This poster seems very keen to PTS but the horse is only 20 and maybe more could have been done.


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## ester (9 May 2017)

It really would be nice to have some more info about how you got this point OP. It is hard to see how an operation can be recommended (or granted not in this case so touted as the only solution) when apparently no scans or xrays have been done. 



ycbm said:



			Ester they did get it sorted. They had the hunt actually booked to come and put the horse down. It is the owner responsible fur the current delay, not the loaner.
		
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Yes and my point being if money was not a problem to me I would humour the owner, argue about it later if I wanted to and get it done yesterday.


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## jumping.jack_flash (9 May 2017)

I cant seem to get the 'quote' thing to work. But I say it again, 20 years old is NOT old . Speak to the PDSA / Blue Cross to see if they can help with costs of X-Rays / Ultra Sound... but to be honest - its actually not as expensive as you think.. its Hundreds not Thousands.

PTS for a real definitive reason... age is not a reason, unless the animal is suffering. But every 20 year old horse I know, is well and able to be ridden.


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## jokadoka (9 May 2017)

As 'money is not a problem' for the OP, i don't really see why there is an issue at all! OP might not legally be obliged to pay for X-rays, however, if I were her I would get X-rays done and paid for and take it from there. Squabbling over who 'should' pay for what is surely detrimental to the welfare of the horse at this point? Might be a waste of money, might not, but it is certainly wasting time in getting the horse sorted!


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## cbmcts (9 May 2017)

I don't think that the OP has done anything wrong but as it is a loaned horse and with all the understandable emotions flying around with the owner, morally paying for xray is the right thing to do.

Completely understand that, if it was her horse she would PTS and it's very likely that is the correct decision. But the owner, again understandably is wobbling and for peace of mind and as long as it is clearly understood that that is the final vet bill that the OP is liable for no matter what the findings it would be honourable and kind to try and establish a definitive diagnosis IMO.


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## kamili (9 May 2017)

The OP already has 200 from the owner in their account to pay for the hunt to come. so why not put 80 to that and get the x-rays? then let the owner make a decision from there? Or am I missing something entirely?


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## jhoward (9 May 2017)

Leo Walker said:



			The horse was booked to be PTS and the money was paid by the owner. Surely that cancels the legal contract regardless of anything else?
		
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The bhs agreement is NOT a legal document. Many think it is but it does even say on the bhs website.


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## Sugar_and_Spice (9 May 2017)

jumping.jack_flash said:



			I cant seem to get the 'quote' thing to work. But I say it again, 20 years old is NOT old . Speak to the PDSA / Blue Cross to see if they can help with costs of X-Rays / Ultra Sound... but to be honest - its actually not as expensive as you think.. its Hundreds not Thousands.

PTS for a real definitive reason... age is not a reason, unless the animal is suffering. But every 20 year old horse I know, is well and able to be ridden.
		
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This animal *is* suffering, you muppet.  That's what this whole thread is about :rolleyes3:


OP, you've had a hard time from some on this thread.  Personally I'd not be paying out yet more money on a horse that you'll be returning to it's owner anyway, regardless of the results of the xrays.  You've funded vet bills and care upto the point where the vet recommends PTS.  IMO you've done your bit.  I'd contact the horses owner and tell them you're prepared to book the hunt again and deal with that, using the money they've already given you, or else they can come and collect the horse ASAP.  I wouldn't be giving 30 days notice because to do so involves keeping the horse alive and suffering for those 30 days.  Loan contracts are basically unenforcible anyway, so you've no need to worry about that.  What the owner does with the horse when they get it home it upto them.  

To those saying the OP has gone AWOL, are you surprised?  And in case you missed it, OP updated a few pages back, saying she had made an offer to the horses owner: which was that OP would pay half the cost of the xrays, on the condition that the following day the horses owner either collected the horse or PTS.  I think this is more than fair.

The whole point of loaning your horse out is so that you still have final say in what happens regarding PTS ie why and when.  So if the owner wants the horse kept alive she can put her hand in her pocket and sort it.  People who don't want their horses returned to them when long term lame/terminally lame, should sell the horse instead.  IMO the OP has no moral obligation to keep paying out for this horses care and vet treatment.


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## ester (9 May 2017)

I didn't say I was surprised she appeared to have gone awol, it was just a statement of fact no more! in which case people's opinions don't matter anyway  they rarely do and people will do what they thought right before they posted anyway. As usual I just feel sorry for the horse caught up in the disagreement


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## Veegeeay (9 May 2017)

I'm not awol!! Just busy!! I have 3 other horses, children & dogs to care for!! Not including work lol!! I took opinions on board & offered half the cosy of the x-ray with some conditions, part of the message below..


Whilst I don&#8217;t think any of this is harming ******* (he is oblivious in the field) it isn&#8217;t helping him either. 

Therefore I propose a number of options:
I pay only transport but you get no x-rays
You take him as he is, I arrange & pay for transport and he is returned to the postcode of your choice &#8211; within reason - I am not paying for masses of extra mileage.  We draw a line underneath this & hope ******* gets better.

I pay half (£140) 
The x-rays (estimated at £280) are to be taken at my yard.  

After that all costs associated with ******* are yours including transport if necessary. 

I will return to you £60 of the money you transferred to me.  The other £140 pays for half of the x-rays

If you decide to rest him against veterinary advice after the x-ray results then you will need to arrange transport for the next day as I will be morally unable to keep him, knowing he is in pain with no hope of recovery.  

I will be able to medicate him as best possible, put him and his equipment on the lorry for you & make sure he is settled before he leaves if you want me to. 

If you decide to pts then you need to arrange & pay for this.  I will make it as peaceful as possible as per our previous arrangement, however this also needs to be done the day after the x-rays in order to put an end to his pain.


The injury is a stifle one, no way of knowing it is bone or soft tissue but given the clinical history so far vet has advised unlikely to recover without surgery.   He has actually said that even with all the money in the world he doesn't think it would make a difference.   Honestly the prognosis is really not good for this horse & he's getting else by the day & for those of you who are saying 20 is not old, I do know this, another of my horses is 21!! He is lame, badly lame even with 2 doses of Bute per day, he is getting worse.   I fail to see (&do doors my vet) how x-ray rays & field rest will solve this especially since surgery is not an option.


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## Veegeeay (9 May 2017)

Interesting she chose option A..... take from that what you will.


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## View (9 May 2017)

Poor horse.

Has his owner actually seen him in the last couple of weeks?


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## ester (9 May 2017)

I never suggested you weren't busy either, or that you had run away to join the circus ....  I was just pointing out that you hadn't posted for a while so everyone asking additional questions to help get their head straight on the matter as it might change and a whole load of inaccurate assumptions start to get made without clarification so it all gets a bit murky and a thread like this can get a life of it's own if that makes sense?

As it is I totally agree that stifle's are tricky *******, and suspect that the owner is a bit flakey/fluffy and generally ill prepared for the scenario you are presenting to her given her response or badly advised elsewhere. I am guessing she hasn't yet see the horse/spoken to your vet herself?


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## FfionWinnie (9 May 2017)

So is option A you send him back to her?  TBH I would have expected to pay for transport anyway if I were you.


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## Veegeeay (9 May 2017)

ester said:



			I never suggested you weren't busy either, or that you had run away to join the circus ....  I was just pointing out that you hadn't posted for a while so everyone asking additional questions to help get their head straight on the matter as it might change and a whole load of inaccurate assumptions start to get made without clarification so it all gets a bit murky and a thread like this can get a life of it's own if that makes sense?

As it is I totally agree that stifle's are tricky *******, and suspect that the owner is a bit flakey/fluffy and generally ill prepared for the scenario you are presenting to her given her response or badly advised elsewhere. I am guessing she hasn't yet see the horse/spoken to your vet herself?
		
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She's both seen the horse & spoken to the vet!! However the information she gave the vet was not correct (he told me exactly what she said) she told him horse looks better & barely lame!!  He still maintains that prognosis is not good as he has obviously seen the horse himself over the 7 weeks. 

I think she is in denial which i do understand, however it is nor helping the horse :-(


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## Veegeeay (9 May 2017)

FfionWinnie said:



			So is option A you send him back to her?  TBH I would have expected to pay for transport anyway if I were you.
		
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Oh yes that was never in question! Just that if she insisted on traveling him after an x-ray ready shorted he would not recover then i would not pay


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## Flyermc (9 May 2017)

just pondering, has the owner, owned the horse for along time?


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## jumping.jack_flash (9 May 2017)

In reply to 'sugar and Spice' . (yet I don't know why im bothering . . ).  The horse from reading the thread was not suffering, not bleeding to death . . Just uncomfortable in walk . .and from reading its out in a field . .well it cant be a broken leg. Hence vet suggested x rays.

I would investigate all options . .just because this is a 'loaned' animal, 20years old, does not mean it doesn't deserve to have some expense of care, regardless who the finger is pointed at to pay.

We own these animals and they rely on us for their welfare . .so what's a few hundred quid to investigate? Find out, it could be treatable . . .before jumping on the PTS band wagon, it really could be something simple.


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## FfionWinnie (9 May 2017)

jumping.jack_flash said:



			In reply to 'sugar and Spice' . (yet I don't know why im bothering . . ).  The horse from reading the thread was not suffering, not bleeding to death . . Just uncomfortable in walk . .and from reading its out in a field . .well it cant be a broken leg. Hence vet suggested x rays.

I would investigate all options . .just because this is a 'loaned' animal, 20years old, does not mean it doesn't deserve to have some expense of care, regardless who the finger is pointed at to pay.

We own these animals and they rely on us for their welfare . .so what's a few hundred quid to investigate? Find out, it could be treatable . . .before jumping on the PTS band wagon, it really could be something simple.
		
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The horse is unable to walk without discomfort and you don't think that is suffering. Give. Me. Strength.


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## ester (9 May 2017)

I did think might be better to bleed to death, wouldn't last too long at least. It's quite scary for anyone to have such a high threshold for 'suffering' - bleeding to death or broken limbs. Though I also suspect that they have very little concept of how a broken leg can present either...


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## ycbm (9 May 2017)

Honey08 said:



			It seems like they don't really know what the injury is, so that's why it would be useful to X-ray..It sounds like they're just going off the vets opinion rather than fact.  I would X-ray ( probably not do more) and see if anything is actually broken, if it was I'd PTS, but if not I'd try retiring on a level field if the horse can be made comfortable (back with the owner).  I don't insure my horses but an X-ray is not that expensive.
		
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On-site x rays are about £300. That's a lot of money to spend on a horse that you have no intention of keeping and who a vet says has a very poor prognosis.


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## ycbm (9 May 2017)

kamili said:



			The OP already has 200 from the owner in their account to pay for the hunt to come. so why not put 80 to that and get the x-rays? then let the owner make a decision from there? Or am I missing something entirely?
		
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Yes, you are missing the fact that it would not be legal to use money given to you for humane destruction for x rays. If the horse is not put down then the £200 is die to be refunded and cannot dimly be diverted to another use.


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## Blurr (10 May 2017)

jumping.jack_flash said:



			The horse from reading the thread was not suffering, not bleeding to death . . Just uncomfortable in walk . .and from reading its out in a field . .well it cant be a broken leg. Hence vet suggested x rays.

.
		
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It is perfectly possible for a horse to walk (trot and canter) with a broken leg (undisplaced fracture).  My pony did a few weeks ago. We had no idea she had a broken leg until the fracture displaced and caused her to bleed into her thigh (a few days earlier she had been examined/manipulated by the vet with no sign of discomfort at any of the joints and a brewing abscess was suspected).


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## southerncomfort (10 May 2017)

jumping.jack_flash said:



			In reply to 'sugar and Spice' . (yet I don't know why im bothering . . ).  The horse from reading the thread was not suffering, not bleeding to death . . Just uncomfortable in walk . .and from reading its out in a field . .well it cant be a broken leg. Hence vet suggested x rays.

I would investigate all options . .just because this is a 'loaned' animal, 20years old, does not mean it doesn't deserve to have some expense of care, regardless who the finger is pointed at to pay.

We own these animals and they rely on us for their welfare . .so what's a few hundred quid to investigate? Find out, it could be treatable . . .before jumping on the PTS band wagon, it really could be something simple.
		
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I thought the vet said that x-rays would be pointless?  (Going to read back a bit now to check!)


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## pansymouse (10 May 2017)

ycbm said:



			On-site x rays are about £300. That's a lot of money to spend on a horse that you have no intention of keeping and who a vet says has a very poor prognosis.
		
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I agree; the owner needs to man up and think of the horse's welfare and not her own feelings.  Prolonging the life of an animal because you can't face letting them go is very cruel and unbelievably selfish.


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## Veegeeay (10 May 2017)

southerncomfort said:



			I thought the vet said that x-rays would be pointless?  (Going to read back a bit now to check!)
		
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Vet has said x-rays will confirm whether or not it is definitely a fracture in which case field rest *could* work.  However it is his opinion (and another vet who has been to the yard for other reasons agrees) based on circumstances surrounding the injury (no other horses in field to kick him, no hard surfaces to hit against) that it is most likely a soft tissue injury and therefore not fixable without surgery.  He is of the opinion that x-rays will simply show what we already believe to be the case.

Don't get me wrong, I am not judging her for her decisions, I'm not saying she is being cruel by not pts, however this is her decision not mine,  mine is to pts based on the information given to me by a professional who's opinion I have paid for...  otherwise what is the point in vets?!!


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## jumping.jack_flash (10 May 2017)

If the horse in question did have a broken leg - then vets are not allowed to walk away and leave an animal to suffer. Regardless. Maybe I have it wrong, perhaps people in here are much happy to have an animal PTS rather than paying to investigate the route cause.

There is suffering, and then suffering.... but the OP seems to be happy to leave it out in a field until a decision is made to PTS this 20 year old horse down, when in reality, it could of just gone down a rabbit hole, and a few weeks of box rest, with pain killers could help until X ray for a definitive answer to the situation.

Pleased I'm not so 'Gun-ho' to PTS !


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## Veegeeay (10 May 2017)

jumping.jack_flash said:



			If the horse in question did have a broken leg - then vets are not allowed to walk away and leave an animal to suffer. Regardless. Maybe I have it wrong, perhaps people in here are much happy to have an animal PTS rather than paying to investigate the route cause.

There is suffering, and then suffering.... but the OP seems to be happy to leave it out in a field until a decision is made to PTS this 20 year old horse down, when in reality, it could of just gone down a rabbit hole, and a few weeks of box rest, with pain killers could help until X ray for a definitive answer to the situation.

Pleased I'm not so 'Gun-ho' to PTS !
		
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You are still missing the point that the vet believes he should be pts, why would I pay for vets advice then ignore it???


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## hopscotch bandit (10 May 2017)

the horse is on two bute a day, lame in walk, cannot get down to roll, vet says its prognosis is poor.
IMHO the owner should be shot along with the horse, delaying is causing unnesecarry suffering..


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## jumping.jack_flash (10 May 2017)

My point is - VETS do get it wrong. I had a horse that I was advised to PTS.... I took the VET at their word and had the horse PTS. Upon after investigation and speaking to OTHER VETS - this horse could of been managed, and been really comfortable and had a few more years of a happy life.. which the insurers also thought was true - hence they would not pay up the loss of use, because they felt the horse was not PTS within the BEVA Guidelines.

Hence, I say it again.... investigate, VETS are not GODS... sometimes what they think is the issue, turns out to be something else.. I feel that they are looking at this horse by its age....

At the end of the day, I'm just at the end of a key board.. I have not seen the horse, I do not know if it is suffering , or just sore... its your choice. But if it was me, for the sake of a few hundred quid and for peace of mind IF I had done the right thing, I would pay for X-Rays, Ultra sound to be done on site.

My friend is still riding their 26 yr ISH and taking her to sponsored rides.... she's had both her hocks injected... and she's back in the game (obviously no jumping)... each animal is different I fully understand that. But my first pony was PTS at 33 years of age, and was ridden by the next jockeys in our family... was loved to bits and was managed. Hence I keep harping on that 20 is not old!


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## wowser (10 May 2017)

While this debate goes on the pony is still waiting for someone to decide what they want to do. Make the decision. What ever it is. He deserves that much.


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## EllenJay (10 May 2017)

IMHO if the owner wants the X-rays then the owner should pay for the X-rays - not the loaner.  Same if it was the other way around and the loaner wanted X-rays and the owner didn't.  

Personally, I would return the PTS money, along with the horse and tell the owner to sort it out.


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## hopscotch bandit (10 May 2017)

wowser said:



			while this debate goes on the pony is still waiting for someone to decide what they want to do. Make the decision. What ever it is. He deserves that much.
		
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^^^^ this ^^^


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## ester (10 May 2017)

Gosh if you are only saying it is ok within the BEVA guidelines that would leave you plenty of suffering equids. Because it does not fit those guidelines does not in anyway mean a vet is wrong in their advice. 

Do you have any experience of stifle injuries JJF?


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## Kezzabell2 (10 May 2017)

I think its disgusting that she would expect you to pay when you've agreed PTS!  she's decided to keep the horse and try to see what happens, its her decision, she should pay!


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## Veegeeay (10 May 2017)

hopscotch bandit said:



			^^^^ this ^^^
		
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The owner has decided to have him back & she has said he will be going in a field to recover with Bute so nothibg different is happening now than would be if he was with her.   He still continues to get worse however.. also before anyone asks why I haven't sent him back yet she doesn't have anywhere for him to go until 5th June so he's stuck here, in pain with nothing i can do about it except watch.


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## Veegeeay (10 May 2017)

Something else which  may influence opinions... the current owner has had him for 2 years, previous owner of over 15 years agreed pts.  In fact he already is Loss of use due to a serious tendon injury to a front leg that he recovered from, he is an ex - hunt horse so has plenty of old injuries & knobbly legs!  He was already unable to jump or do any tight corners or fast work, he was with me as a happy light hacker.    If it turns out field rest would help then current owner will still be in the same position re loaning him that led her to me in the first place!!


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## thatsmygirl (10 May 2017)

In my view, if you loan a horse you cover full costs while in your care, think the owner was nice to put £200 forward to pts, you should cover that in my mind. 
Tbh I feel it's a bit silly having a loan horse not insured, if it's your horse it's up to you but say horse needed expensive operation? Your liable while in your care.


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## Tiddlypom (10 May 2017)

thatsmygirl said:



			In my view, if you loan a horse you cover full costs while in your care, think the owner was nice to put £200 forward to pts, you should cover that in my mind. 
Tbh I feel it's a bit silly having a loan horse not insured, if it's your horse it's up to you but say horse needed expensive operation? Your liable while in your care.
		
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Veteran horse policies usually only cover accidental injury with visible  external signs of injury, so this case wouldn't be covered. Loan horses can quite rightly be returned if not fit for purpose, but unfortunately sometimes owners are not prepared or able to receive the horse back.

As to the terms of who pays for PTS, well that should be pre agreed in the loan agreement. (I have both had a veteran mare on loan, and now loan out my youngster).


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## Veegeeay (10 May 2017)

Tiddlypom said:



			Veteran horse policies usually only cover accidental injury with visible  external signs of injury, so this case wouldn't be covered. Loan horses can quite rightly be returned if not fit for purpose, but unfortunately sometimes owners are not prepared or able to receive the horse back.

As to the terms of who pays for PTS, well that should be pre agreed in the loan agreement. (I have both had a veteran mare on loan, and now loan out my youngster).
		
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Written in contract owner oasis for ptd. This is not an issue!


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## Honey08 (10 May 2017)

ycbm said:



			On-site x rays are about £300. That's a lot of money to spend on a horse that you have no intention of keeping and who a vet says has a very poor prognosis.
		
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Yes, my horse's were £280 last year.  Not a lot in my opinion to be sure you've got the right diagnosis and it's not treatable before you PTS someone else's horse that you've damaged, albeit accidentally.  I would have done this week's ago - the horse may also have been PTS sooner too..


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## Buddy'sMum (10 May 2017)

Honey08 said:



			Yes, my horse's were £280 last year.  Not a lot in my opinion to be sure you've got the right diagnosis and it's not treatable before you PTS someone else's horse that you've damaged, albeit accidentally.  I would have done this week's ago - the horse may also have been PTS sooner too..
		
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Completely agree. Poor horse.


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## ycbm (10 May 2017)

Honey08 said:



			Yes, my horse's were £280 last year.  Not a lot in my opinion to be sure you've got the right diagnosis and it's not treatable before you PTS someone else's horse that you've damaged, albeit accidentally.  I would have done this week's ago - the horse may also have been PTS sooner too..
		
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Nobody damaged the horse. He damaged himself in the field, as horses do. It's the owners decision when to put to sleep. The loaner is trying to return the horse under the terms of her contract, but the owner has asked her to keep him until early June. It's the owner's decision to keep this horse in pain. Against the advice of the loaner's vet.


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## Buddy'sMum (10 May 2017)

ycbm said:



			Nobody damaged the horse. He damaged himself in the field, as horses do. It's the owners decision when to put to sleep. The loaner is trying to return the horse under the terms of her contract, but the owner has asked her to keep him until early June. It's the owner's decision to keep this horse in pain. Against the advice of the loaner's vet.
		
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The BHS loan agreement clearly states that the loanee is responsible for all vets bills - the vet's said that "the only way to know whether field rest would resolve the issue is by having an x-ray done" and the owner wants an x-ray before pts. So the loanee needs to pay for an x-ray (and IMO should have done this weeks ago).


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## Veegeeay (10 May 2017)

Buddy'sMum said:



			The BHS loan agreement clearly states that the loanee is responsible for all vets bills - the vet's said that "the only way to know whether field rest would resolve the issue is by having an x-ray done" and the owner wants an x-ray before pts. So the loanee needs to pay for an x-ray (and IMO should have done this weeks ago).
		
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But weeks ago the owner told me she didn't want to bother with x rays & arranged to be pts!!
It was over a week later that she changed her mind.


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## Buddy'sMum (11 May 2017)

Veegeeay said:



			But weeks ago the owner told me she didn't want to bother with x rays & arranged to be pts!!
It was over a week later that she changed her mind.
		
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Why wasn't the horse pts weeks ago?


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## Veegeeay (11 May 2017)

Buddy'sMum said:



			Why wasn't the horse pts weeks ago?
		
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 She wanted to come see him (fair enough) which took a few days, then her boyfriend to meet him & he couldn't get there for a week.  Each time we've collected her/ them from the station & taken her back as neither of them drive.  She has seen the horse a total of 3 times in the last 9 months, 2 of those since she decided to pts & not since she changed her mind a week ago


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## Doublethyme (11 May 2017)

For the sake of the horse and if money no object OP, I would I think take it on the chin, pay the money and just write off as the loss making money pits horses are.  It sounds to me that the owner has no resource whatsoever to keep this horse.  In my opinion to loan out a 20 year 'much loved' horse is not something I would do anyway so she either has financial trouble or doesn't care about the horse till it suits her.    

All that leads me to believe this could run and run to the detriment if the horse.  If you believe that PTS is the best for the horse, get the xrays to prove your point and hopefully prevent that horse going back to someone without the resources to keep him properly.    I know that I would sleep easier if that was me.

The horse sounds like he needs your help to guide an indecisive owner to the right decision.  Surely he deserves your support even if the owner doesn't.    Money spent will soon fade, knowing you could have helped the horse and didn't may not.


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## Veegeeay (11 May 2017)

Doublethyme said:



			For the sake of the horse and if money no object OP, I would I think take it on the chin, pay the money and just write off as the loss making money pits horses are.  It sounds to me that the owner has no resource whatsoever to keep this horse.  In my opinion to loan out a 20 year 'much loved' horse is not something I would do anyway so she either has financial trouble or doesn't care about the horse till it suits her.    

All that leads me to believe this could run and run to the detriment if the horse.  If you believe that PTS is the best for the horse, get the xrays to prove your point and hopefully prevent that horse going back to someone without the resources to keep him properly.    I know that I would sleep easier if that was me.

The horse sounds like he needs your help to guide an indecisive owner to the right decision.  Surely he deserves your support even if the owner doesn't.    Money spent will soon fade, knowing you could have helped the horse and didn't may not.
		
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Did i ever say money no object?????  My point was it's not about the money but the fact she wants me to pay for something I don't want/need.  Have i mentioned that I have been the loaner in a very similar situation? Loanee took vets advice, which was pts & if i had wanted further investigations I would have paid up instantly, not because I'm loaded but because it was my horse & therefore ultimately my responsibility to pay for something further than what the loanee is prepared to.   Maybe i souls have made the person loaning my horse pay for xrays/ ultrasound etc.....


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## ycbm (11 May 2017)

Buddy'sMum said:



			The BHS loan agreement clearly states that the loanee is responsible for all vets bills - the vet's said that "the only way to know whether field rest would resolve the issue is by having an x-ray done" and the owner wants an x-ray before pts. So the loanee needs to pay for an x-ray (and IMO should have done this weeks ago).
		
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			The vet doesn't think this horse will recover without surgery and the he is 20 years old and uninsured so this is not an option.
		
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The loaner also says if he was her horse, she would put him to sleep. It is the owners decision not to put him to sleep, something which was agreed and booked long ago. The owner changed her mind, so the owner should pay for the x rays, and for the livery while he remains with the loaner after the PTS date, imo.

Surely the whole point of loaning, apart from avoiding the capital costs, is not to be lumbered with problems like this?

People seem to be answering this poster as if she should feel the same way about this horse as if he'd been her childhood pony or long term buddy. She doesn't have that emotional stake in him and there's no reason why she should. 

The owner is prolonging this horse's problems, no-one else. 

I feel sorry for the horse and the loaner.


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## hopscotch bandit (11 May 2017)

Veegeeay said:



			The owner has decided to have him back & she has said he will be going in a field to recover with Bute so nothibg different is happening now than would be if he was with her.   He still continues to get worse however.. also before anyone asks why I haven't sent him back yet she doesn't have anywhere for him to go until 5th June so he's stuck here, in pain with nothing i can do about it except watch.
		
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Its not your fault Veegeeay the fault is very much with the owner, I am not blaming you far from it.Sorry but when the vet that has spent the last decade and a half knowing my horse inside out (literally) calls time on my horse that will be it as far as I am concerned.They are not a vet for no reason.Sure mistakes are made and sometimes a second opinion may be nesecsary but if the horse is currently in pain to the extent you explain and its struggling to get up and down that situation will not change without a miracle happening, second, third or tenth opinion won't change the prognosis or the facts of the matter.The owner is just being a total coward imho.


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## jumping.jack_flash (11 May 2017)

Horses cost money end-of.


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## jokadoka (11 May 2017)

Doublethyme said:



			For the sake of the horse and if money no object OP, I would I think take it on the chin, pay the money and just write off as the loss making money pits horses are.  It sounds to me that the owner has no resource whatsoever to keep this horse.  In my opinion to loan out a 20 year 'much loved' horse is not something I would do anyway so she either has financial trouble or doesn't care about the horse till it suits her.    

All that leads me to believe this could run and run to the detriment if the horse.  If you believe that PTS is the best for the horse, get the xrays to prove your point and hopefully prevent that horse going back to someone without the resources to keep him properly.    I know that I would sleep easier if that was me.

The horse sounds like he needs your help to guide an indecisive owner to the right decision.  Surely he deserves your support even if the owner doesn't.    Money spent will soon fade, knowing you could have helped the horse and didn't may not.
		
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Totally agree with this.


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## AmieeT (11 May 2017)

A vet can PTS without owner's consent if the animal is suffering enough, their sole reason only has to be that the animal is suffering. I'd be inclined to speak to them about that (I believe they would need a second opinion and permission from a PC, so not an easy option).

I think it's despicable that she intends to simple out him in a field with Bute that has already proved to be useless. Does she intend to have her own vet assess him at all?!

JJF you seem to be missing the point. Two vets have agreed. You had a bad experience, remember it's easy for other vets to say they could save you horse when it's already dead and they didn't see the injuries. Stop acting like you know better than the paid (AND QUALIFIED) professionals who have already told the OP that the horse will not recover.


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## Laika (11 May 2017)

Overall, I think the loanee has been put in a horrible, awkward position. The Loanee has seeked veterinary advice and was told by a professional that it would be in the horses best interest to be put to sleep. As it is the owners decision to go against that advice, I think it is now up to them to step up and go into thorough investigation. I am under no illusion that in the end, it'll end up coming to the same conclusion the loanee has already come to. 

OP I just feel bad that you have to wait until 5th of June, all the while watching this animal suffer when you know in your right mind what needs to be done.


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## meleeka (11 May 2017)

For those saying the loaner should pay, if it were your horse that someobodu had on loan wouldn't you be putting the horse first and getting those X-rays done pronto, regardless of who was paying? The OP is quite happy to take the vets opinion, but the owner understandably isn't so sure. The owner is the one prolonging that horses suffering, not the loaner, who would have had it all finished weeks ago.


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## FestiveFuzz (11 May 2017)

jumping.jack_flash said:



			My point is - VETS do get it wrong. I had a horse that I was advised to PTS.... I took the VET at their word and had the horse PTS. Upon after investigation and speaking to OTHER VETS - this horse could of been managed, and been really comfortable and had a few more years of a happy life.. which the insurers also thought was true - hence they would not pay up the loss of use, because they felt the horse was not PTS within the BEVA Guidelines.

Hence, I say it again.... investigate, VETS are not GODS... sometimes what they think is the issue, turns out to be something else.. I feel that they are looking at this horse by its age...
		
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I have to be honest, in the vast majority of cases (save for freak accidents etc) if you're meeting BEVA guidelines you've most likely failed the horse. 

My 5yo was PTS a few months ago now. She did not meet BEVA guidelines despite the fact she was on 3 legs, was impossible to keep sound in a field and had suffered an acute tear to her DDFT, followed by a split to her SDFT months later. Despite her prognosis being guarded with an extremely slim chance of her ever returning to ridden work I did everything and I mean EVERYTHING to try and get her sound. We box rested, we field rested, we had monthly ultrasounds to check progress, we had cutting edge stem cell treatment and when she damaged her SDFT we referred her to the RVC where the leading specialists in soft tissue injuries saw her. I put my all into getting her better, and when I eventually gave up it was because I knew in my heart of hearts that it was the right thing to do. We didn't meet BEVA guidelines as they felt we could have buted her up (she was already on a high dosage) and box rested her for 6-9 months, but quite frankly that would have just been cruel given she was a 5yo competition horse, especially when there were no guarantees she would ever come sound at the end of it. 

So yes, whilst vets can make mistakes, there are very few that will willy nilly suggest PTS unless they genuinely believe it's in the horse's best interests.


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## blitznbobs (11 May 2017)

Send the horse back , don't pay for the X-ray you are not legally obliged to pay for bills once horse is returned... owners issue


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## SatansLittleHelper (11 May 2017)

Under the Animal Welfare Act the owner could actually be prosecuted for leaving the Animal to suffer. The vets and yourself (as he is with you) have a duty of care to this horse...speak yo the vets and see if you have options with this given that he is suffering. I'd hate to be in your shoes OP, I hate watching animals suffer


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## AmieeT (11 May 2017)

SatansLittleHelper said:



			Under the Animal Welfare Act the owner could actually be prosecuted for leaving the Animal to suffer. The vets and yourself (as he is with you) have a duty of care to this horse...speak yo the vets and see if you have options with this given that he is suffering. I'd hate to be in your shoes OP, I hate watching animals suffer 

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I don't think OP would be prosecuted given the messages she has sent to the owner. But I totally agree (and have posted likewise) that something should be done.


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## ester (11 May 2017)

FestiveFuzz said:



			I have to be honest, in the vast majority of cases (save for freak accidents etc) if you're meeting BEVA guidelines you've most likely failed the horse.
		
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Exactly, it is quite scary that someone seems to be suggesting that! 

OP I think it is awful she is making you wait until the 5th, though if she is going to just throw horse in a field it isn't going to make much difference to him, all you can do is keep your vet informed really and if he deteriorates act on that. Does she know which vet she will be using? I am wondering whether it might be an idea if yours gave them the heads up of a potentially slightly delusional client heading their way!  I am not surprised when you say she has only owned him 2 years, and obviously some of that time then spent with yourself anyway.


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## thatsmygirl (11 May 2017)

blitznbobs said:



			Send the horse back , don't pay for the X-ray you are not legally obliged to pay for bills once horse is returned... owners issue
		
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It's attitude like this as to why I wouldn't loan my horses out, so if a loan horse you had got kicked in the field you would quite happily hand it back to the owner instead off taking responability for the animal in your care. ( not talking about your case op just in general here) my friend had the same problem, her loan pony got laminitis so instead off taking responsibility she handed it back to the owner, not good enough.


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## little_critter (11 May 2017)

blitznbobs said:



			Send the horse back , don't pay for the X-ray you are not legally obliged to pay for bills once horse is returned... owners issue
		
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There is nowhere for the horse to go until 5th June.


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## meleeka (11 May 2017)

thatsmygirl said:



			It's attitude like this as to why I wouldn't loan my horses out, so if a loan horse you had got kicked in the field you would quite happily hand it back to the owner instead off taking responability for the animal in your care. ( not talking about your case op just in general here) my friend had the same problem, her loan pony got laminitis so instead off taking responsibility she handed it back to the owner, not good enough.
		
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The loaner has taken veterinary advice and was dealing with it! The owner wants X-rays which the vet isn't recommending so it's got to be down to them. The loaner is t just returning the horse because it has vets bills, she's returning it because she thinks it should be pts (because her vet says so) and the owner disagrees.


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## D66 (11 May 2017)

Not very cherished by the owner.  If she disagrees with your vet she should be getting her own vet out to do the x-rays in a timely fashion and should remove him from your premises.


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## Veegeeay (11 May 2017)

D66 said:



			Not very cherished by the owner.  If she disagrees with your vet she should be getting her own vet out to do the x-rays in a timely fashion and should remove him from your premises.
		
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If the vet had told me he had a good chance of recovery within say 3-4 months I would not even consider sending him back until he was totally fixed.  Laminitis would not be an issue, a kick can be dealt this as long as there is a good prognosis.  I have had chiropractors, saddlers and thermal imagers out to this horse (not related to the injury, simply as maintenance)  together with my own to ensure he is cared for in the best possible way.  

I agree with you completely, if it were my horse and I disagreed with the vet I would move heaven and earth to get my horse home so I could at least see for myself.


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## Veegeeay (11 May 2017)

Having said that...  I think someone said above, isn't it the point of a loan pony that if it doesn't suit your needs anymore for any reason it can just go home, likewise if the owner decides their circumstances have changed and they want the pony back.  

Not that this is the case.  Horse is happy with us except his devastating field injury.


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## ycbm (11 May 2017)

thatsmygirl said:



			It's attitude like this as to why I wouldn't loan my horses out, so if a loan horse you had got kicked in the field you would quite happily hand it back to the owner instead off taking responability for the animal in your care. ( not talking about your case op just in general here) my friend had the same problem, her loan pony got laminitis so instead off taking responsibility she handed it back to the owner, not good enough.
		
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I would possibly loan mine, but if this one was mine it would already be dead. It's not 'attitudes like this'  - it's half the point of loaning in the first place, not to have to take responsibility for long term issues.

If your friend was unhappy with what happened, why didn't her contract say it couldn't happen? It was in her own control.


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## Archangel (11 May 2017)

Forgetting about money for a moment

There is a difference of opinion (loaner says horse worse, owner says better)  therefore vet should attend again for follow up visit with both owner and loaner present *for the sake of the horse* especially as the future circumstance for the horse will change - is the horse fit to be moved?  Ongoing management of injury?  Prescription for bute?

Having had two stifle injuries - star fracture with stitches and torn stifle ligament I would not move the horse without a vet check.  I take it vet has ruled out torn ligament - this presented like a broken leg initially but was diagnosed without x-ray.

As to who pays... if xrays are now found to be needed then I think it falls to the loaner as comes under umbrella of original problem, this follow up visit falls to the owner as regardless of end date of contract it really is down to them now and in the case of a difference of opinion between loaner and owner the responsibility lies with the owner.


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## MotherOfChickens (11 May 2017)

thatsmygirl said:



			It's attitude like this as to why I wouldn't loan my horses out, so if a loan horse you had got kicked in the field you would quite happily hand it back to the owner instead off taking responability for the animal in your care. ( not talking about your case op just in general here) my friend had the same problem, her loan pony got laminitis so instead off taking responsibility she handed it back to the owner, not good enough.
		
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and the flip side is that a loaner can take away the horse at any time-or give notice to, no matter how much time/money etc they've put into the horse. Loans and shares have to be treated as business deals-imle thats the only way they work and if either party can't deal with that, they shouldnt be doing it.


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## pansymouse (11 May 2017)

Archangel said:



			Forgetting about money for a moment

There is a difference of opinion (loaner says horse worse, owner says better)  therefore vet should attend again for follow up visit with both owner and loaner present *for the sake of the horse* especially as the future circumstance for the horse will change - is the horse fit to be moved?  Ongoing management of injury?  Prescription for bute?

Having had two stifle injuries - star fracture with stitches and torn stifle ligament I would not move the horse without a vet check.  I take it vet has ruled out torn ligament - this presented like a broken leg initially but was diagnosed without x-ray.

As to who pays... if xrays are now found to be needed then I think it falls to the loaner as comes under umbrella of original problem, this follow up visit falls to the owner as regardless of end date of contract it really is down to them now and in the case of a difference of opinion between loaner and owner the responsibility lies with the owner.
		
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I think this is a very sensible and fair approach.


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## southerncomfort (11 May 2017)

Archangel said:



			Having had two stifle injuries - star fracture with stitches and torn stifle ligament I would not move the horse without a vet check.  I take it vet has ruled out torn ligament - this presented like a broken leg initially but was diagnosed without x-ray.

.
		
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Agree with this. My old girl tore the ligaments in her shoulder.  I've never seen a horse in so much pain.  Vet said she'd be on heavy duty painkillers for life.  When she worsened overnight I decided not to put her through any more and had her PTS.


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## Buddy'sMum (11 May 2017)

pansymouse said:



			I think this is a very sensible and fair approach.
		
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I do too.


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