# Watermill Swatch



## Touchwood (29 April 2010)

Eothain I have sent you a PM as thought this may be particularly relevant to you, but I am interested in hearing from anyone who has met Watermill Swatch or any of his offspring in the flesh, and wondered what their thoughts were?


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## eventrider23 (29 April 2010)

Haven't met him in the flesh but ridden pics/vid I have seen have been stunning and he himself is a stunning animal.  All foals I have seen have been of similae quality. One thing that did surprise me on seeing conformational shot of himis that he 'appears' bery light of bone below the knee and so would, if this is true, be wary of using him on mares that are VERY light themselves.  However, as I have said, I have not seen him in the flesh and this is just taken from phoros of him.  That said, he is a stallion I would use 'in a shot' on the right mare!!!!


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## BallyshanHorses (29 April 2010)

As eventrider says he is extremely light of bone and therefore his overall picture is one of a filly.He is very dainty in all respects so the mare would need to be fairly substantial or throw something that would be a better build than the stallion.


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## Eothain (29 April 2010)

Wow, I didn't think he was extremely light of bone but I'm already outnumbered, so he must be !!! I would have said a tad light.

PM replied to. Sorry for the delay


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## Irishlife (29 April 2010)

He has 20cm of bone according to the Irish Horse Register, which is just shy of 8 inches (7.87). This is not unusual by any means for a TB however. Personally I would like to see a bit more on a horse that is just over 16.2hh.
It is the quality of the bone that counts of course, also the mare you are breeding from and your desired end result.

I have seen him in the flesh and he is stunning, very elegant but not that masculine in my opinion.


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## sallyf (29 April 2010)

He was one that interested me for my mare that needs an outcrss but i watched a video of him the other day and he does look a bit too light for me .
I also wasnt that taken with his movement so will have to keep looking.
8 inches of bone wouldnt be nearly enough for me both of mine have over 81/2 and the bigger lighter one of the two i consider to be lightweight


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## TheMule (29 April 2010)

I think he has a great walk, an ok trot (hard to tell from the video of him at the stallion test as he's so tense) and a pretty ordinary canter which looked downhill at times.
Not a stallion I'd use myself- there are better tbs available imo which have more substance and strength as well as better movement.


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## millitiger (29 April 2010)

i'm not sure if i am missing something when i look at him but i don't really understand the hype.

he is a nice horse but imo there are better made and better moving tbs around.


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## eventrider23 (29 April 2010)

The hype, I think began at the RDS when he won the champs.....judged I think by Bernard le Courtouis owner of JM).  He is a stunning horse and on right mare I would no hesitate to use him on seeing his stock but he is indeed light of bone and so would use a bigger build mare on him.


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## Touchwood (29 April 2010)

For the people saying there are better TBs around.....could we have some names thrown into the ring please?  IMO it is VERY hard to find good TBs available to the UK if you discount the racing stallions.  I may be spoilt as coming from a bloodstock background I have seen some seriously good TB's, but they are harder to find for sportshorses.  I have used Groomsbridge's stallions, and this morning have inseminated a mare with Primitive Proposal, but I do need some other blood to add into the mix with my mares, and of course not every stallion will suit every mare.
As it happens Watermill Swatch may be absolutely perfect for one of the mares I am thinking, as it is a struggle to refine her, but it is essential I can do that without losing her performance and jump.


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## seabiscuit (29 April 2010)

Yes I agree with you touchwood, I also struggle to think of any other TB stallions that can move and jump well ****under saddle****. Even the UK event stallions dont necessarily move any better/worse than WS.

Watermill swatch did have a racing career as a 2 year old before he became a sporthorse and was graded as a stallion, which would have affected him physically. I agree he does look tense on the video, which would have the effect of shortening his stride greatly and cause loss of balance.  Loose schooling at the beginning I think you can see more of his potential.

Re; the bone- most standard warmblood stallions only have 8 1/2, so not a huge difference. He has the appropiate amount of bone for his type I think.


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## sallyf (29 April 2010)

Touchwood i agree with you entirely and would have used him on my other mare if he had been available at the time .
I also agree there is a real shortage of suitable stallions hence why mine is due back in season tomorrow and still not been inseminated as i am struggling to find the right thing.
I need an outcross for this mare so got to start finding something very soon but sadly for me he just isnt quite the right thing as i need something slightly more uphill for this one particular mare.


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## eventrider23 (29 April 2010)

I tried to say this earlier but comp crashed - TW - if it is a mare as you say you want to lighten then I woudl use him in a shot if all the other boxes are ticked.


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## Eothain (29 April 2010)

I don't think there's hype about him. I can only speak for myself and say that I'm very excited about seeing his fillies and his suitability as a dam sire. In my book that's where he'll excel.

Kudos to him though for being the only thoroughbred to successfully go through the KWPN 70 Day Stallion test. That must count for something. Which of course leads to the question of why is a KWPN approved thoroughbred stallion standing in Ireland?

Maybe he wouldn't/didn't cross well with KWPN mares but rest assured he'll find plenty of heavy boned mares in Ireland, especially in the West, or as it's more commonly known; The Wesht. He'll prove his worth down there!!!


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## maestro (29 April 2010)

TW I think you are being a little harsh on the event stallions in this country, they have had to do it the hard way and compete for a long time to prove their worth, so their movement will have become more economical along the way.  But to watch my boy float around the field today still shows what is there.  Time now to look at what these stallions are actually producing and the looseness of the stock.


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## Touchwood (29 April 2010)

maestro said:



			TW I think you are being a little harsh on the event stallions in this country, they have had to do it the hard way and compete for a long time to prove their worth, so their movement will have become more economical along the way.  But to watch my boy float around the field today still shows what is there.  Time now to look at what these stallions are actually producing and the looseness of the stock.
		
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Maestro, please don't take offence at my comments!  Your stallion is one of the few TB's (along with some others - some I have mentioned above and some I haven't!) in this country that I really like - hopefully you noted my comments about him after Hartpury?  All of them complimentary   Anyone who knows me will know I have long been a Criminal Law fan....part of my difficulty in using your stallion is how closely he is related to some of my mares! lol!  I was thrilled to finally meet Criminal Law at Louella a few weeks ago.

I have not once mentioned 'eventing' stallions.  Pure TB's of the quality I am after are relatively rare in sportshorse circles IMO.  So once you have narrowed it down to the few which are of the quality I want, I then need to pick which one will suit the particular mare!  That is where I am running into difficulty.


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## chrissie1 (29 April 2010)

Glad you went with PP Gemma, our foal by him is lovely.


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## hilly (30 April 2010)

_Might _ be able to answer your question very shortly. *touches wood* Not a headless horse, just a camera-shy, alarmed-up mare that is actually foaling down just 20 yards from him. 








There is flat, quality bone and there is round, dense bone; the fixation for bone goes back to cavalry and agricultural requirements and isn't quite as relevant for modern sporthorses. For sure, WS is a very elegant, refined horse and didn't choose him for another mare last year as she too is bred on American lines and needs a tad more bone.

However, on this strapping broodie, no hesitation using him. Have seen many WS foals on the show circuit; they're not chunky and he does seem to add quality and presence to the strong half-bred types he attracts.

Bernard le Courtois said he was the type of TB sire French breeders needed but they can't find stallions like him. Neither can Irish breeders find many others. 

Have used a variety of TB sires on this mare so can't wait to see what she produces this time - Master Imp and Colourfield were good crosses while Primo Pageant made very little impact so will be interesting to see if WS can crack the code.


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## millitiger (30 April 2010)

i am just going on the photos/videos on his website and imo although he is a nice stamp i don't go wow at his movement- he looks a little tight and short of stride- whether that was the atmosphere i'm not sure but he just didn't do it for me.

other tbs to throw into the ring- Weston Justice, the Louella boys (PP and i know there is some PR semen available to good mares), Set Adrift, Groomsbridge has some lovely stallions, One More Tiger (don't think he graded but is producing real quality horses) are the ones i like.

there is also Mill Law, still some Mayhill semen *i think* and plenty of others i can't think of off the top of my head.

if you want to refine then WS looks great but for me, his movement isn't strong enough based on the videos on his website.


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## Touchwood (30 April 2010)

millitiger said:



			i am just going on the photos/videos on his website and imo although he is a nice stamp i don't go wow at his movement- he looks a little tight and short of stride- whether that was the atmosphere i'm not sure but he just didn't do it for me.

other tbs to throw into the ring- Weston Justice, the Louella boys (PP and i know there is some PR semen available to good mares), Set Adrift, Groomsbridge has some lovely stallions, One More Tiger (don't think he graded but is producing real quality horses) are the ones i like.

there is also Mill Law, still some Mayhill semen *i think* and plenty of others i can't think of off the top of my head.

if you want to refine then WS looks great but for me, his movement isn't strong enough based on the videos on his website.
		
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Great list Millitiger, some of which I have already used 

With regards to the movement, what about what the mare brings to the equation?  One of the mares is a superb mover - in fact has too much movement for eventing.


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## eventrider23 (30 April 2010)

Personally then TW I wouyld use WS - he will be marketable and is not a pure dressage horse and will lighten her up.

OMT - as much as I ADORE him....if you want to lighten the mare then maybe not the best as he is a proper NH type TB.

What about...at Louella....Denounce???  I saw Primitive Delphine by him and she was lovely!!


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## eventrider23 (30 April 2010)

Personally then TW I wouyld use WS - he will be marketable and is not a pure dressage horse and will lighten her up.

OMT - as much as I ADORE him....if you want to lighten the mare then maybe not the best as he is a proper NH type TB.

What about...at Louella....Denounce???  I saw Primitive Delphine by him and she was lovely!!

OR outside the box and not PURE tb.....what about Alligator Fontaine available through French Stallions I believe.  Yes not put tb but the rest is SF so close enough!!!!  Not even starting to mention my personal darling os Mighty Magic????  This is THE horse and IF IF IF I could afford and had the right mare then I woudl use him in a shot!!!!   I believe Pelion, who you have used revently have a stock of him in too so would not be hard to get hold of I imagine........

Lots and lots of choice and to throw ONE more into the mix is Hever Golf Ranger....I am doing a photo shoot hopefiully with this stallion tomorrow so will have tonne of pics to show you but whilst only 15.2....he has it all....except the overly flicky toe action.  Plus he is by Efisio...he is second stallion dowen on here - but better pics to follow tomorrow:
http://pennwaywelshponies.homestead.com/Jitterbug.html


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## millitiger (30 April 2010)

Touchwood said:



			Great list Millitiger, some of which I have already used 

With regards to the movement, what about what the mare brings to the equation?  One of the mares is a superb mover - in fact has too much movement for eventing.
		
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if she has too much movement then WS would be a good choice but imo there are still others around i would pick first but obviously that is personal choice!

as eventrider says, have you seen Denounce? i have loved the youngstock i have seen by him.

regarding what the mare brings in terms of movement i guess it depends what you are breeding for.
i look at everything with 'eventing eyes' and think you cannot have too much good movement providing the horse still has a strong gallop.
i like traditional breeding but recognise that more and more warmbloods are coming over the eventing and we need to be able to keep up in the dressage as a double clear doesn't guarantee a placing anymore.
however, there are some great traditional tbs and ISH that really move so i shall be sticking with them for now.

my Primitive Proposal gelding absolutely floats along and has great, dare i say 'warmblood looking' movement but also has fabulous length of stride when he wants to get somewhere fast!

i have a OMT mare too- she moves nicely but nowhere near as flashy as my PP but her dam had a sewing machine action (flatbred). she has outstanding scope and bravery though which makes up for it and still managed low 30's BE scores last year in her first season.
eventrider- you may be right about OMT not throwing light foals; my girl is only 16hh and has stacks of quality but is in a Wide fitting saddle! 
(the bay in my signature)


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## Touchwood (30 April 2010)

Millitiger, I think we are probably singing off the same hymn sheet really   I look at it through eventing eyes too...I would argue however, that the movement can get too extravagent (although I don't think this will be an issue with prodominantly TB breeding), as this can go through to the jump and lose the economical jump required across country, it is a fine balance.  Of course the gallop is so important, my Groomsbride May I x Fleetwater Opposition 2009 foal has the most awesome ground covering gallop, it really does make me smile 

Denounce was one I was interested in, but I don't believe they are shipping semen for him, which is an issue for me.  Not only do I not want to send away mares with foals at foot, but given we run an AI centre here, I want my mares done here rather than paying keep elsewhere.


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## maestro (30 April 2010)

What are WS lines like re. jump. To breed an event horse to jump and gallop are still the main criterea and blood lines that produce that are the difficult bit.  Those that can do that tend to be uphill enough anyway.


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## KatB (30 April 2010)

Would agree, Denounce has thrown some lovely stock. I know a 3yr old who is gorgeous, fantastic temperament, excellent movement and looks. He is going to be HUGE though! He is out of a 3* german graded event mare


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## Irishlife (6 May 2010)

Tonight at my vet's "Drive Thru Scanning" clinic, there was a fabulous foal by WS out of a Royal Dane x Ginger Dick mare. She was a very classy half bred mare around 16.3hh a typical old fashioned Irish horse the height no doubt from Royal Dane who is a 17hh TB. The foal was absolutely exquisite, very correct, full of personality, elegant and straight. The mare has been covered by WS again.

This is the 2nd WS foal I have seen this week and the other I have seen is also a top notch cracker.

Only thing I would say, given the mare had around 9.5 inches of bone the foal did not take after mum for bone but still had enough for a 3/4 bred.


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## Bearskin (7 May 2010)

For me, WS is a good refining stallion.  As a sporthorse sire, he looks a bit "girly" to me.  Not rangy enough in his paces and not enough power.  Very correct, nice looking, nice moving. May produce nice eventers but would need a good mare to produce a superstar. Would want to use him on a mare with scope, range and power.  Could be a good damsire or showhorse sire.

What I like is a TB stallion with a more old fashioned frame:  rangy and scopey.  The Germans are constantly looking for TB sires with good NH breeding and type. There are fewer and fewer of those available now.


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## hilly (8 May 2010)

Irishlife said:



			Tonight at my vet's "Drive Thru Scanning" clinic, there was a fabulous foal by WS out of a Royal Dane x Ginger Dick mare. She was a very classy half bred mare around 16.3hh a typical old fashioned Irish horse the height no doubt from Royal Dane who is a 17hh TB. *The foal was absolutely exquisite, very correct, full of personality, elegant and straight.* The mare has been covered by WS again.

This is the 2nd WS foal I have seen this week and the other I have seen is also a top notch cracker.

Only thing I would say, given the mare had around 9.5 inches of bone the foal did not take after mum for bone but still had enough for a 3/4 bred.
		
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Echo all of that. He is producing exquisite foals and we were delighted with our colt and would have used him again, given the chance. Prospective customers need a mare with substance and bone but he definitely brings so much quality into the equation.

Sadly, we lost his dam on Tuesday with colic but I'm glad her last foal is a Swatch as he is just stunning. And yes, he has her trademark big ears. 

Belated thanks, IL, for all your help with the foster mammy search - much appreciated.


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