# Rare breeds...why?!



## LaurieT (28 March 2017)

Hello  ...am new here!

Being far away from home and heavy work commitments means I am unable to have any furry, four-legged friends of my own, but I love to write about them.

I am a massive supporter of Britain's native breeds, and cannot believe that many of them made it onto the RBST 2016 Watchlist. I myself believe they have so much to offer, and so much untapped potential that people just don't realise! I would be interested to hear people's thoughts on this, why they are there and how we can increase their popularity?

I hope it is OK to share a link to my blog.... (I can't find anywhere that says that it isn't?!  ) You can find my latest post regarding Rare Breeds here - http://laurietwizel.blogspot.co.uk/2017/03/why-do-we-have-rare-breeds.html please feel free to comment and share - I would be really interested in people's thoughts and stories (and pictures!!!) to put together a more informed discussion piece 

Laurie x


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## Dave's Mam (28 March 2017)

You didn't mention Exmoors, also classed as a rare breed, Status Endangered, but thanks to many dedicated breeders, numbers are on the increase.
There were only 50 Exmoors left after the 2nd World War & the Rationing (Yes, they got stolen & eaten) & I imagine many native breeds suffered a similar demise.


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## Dave's Mam (28 March 2017)

Ah, should read properly.  You only listed the Critical List.


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## TheresaW (28 March 2017)

I have a Suffolk cross. He's been with me for around 14 years. 















Pics taken about 6 months apart, I struggle with his weight in summer. He's retired due to the cross breeding not overly working and his legs not really matching his body. Have always managed to keep on top of it though.


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## Dave's Mam (28 March 2017)

What a beauty.


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## alainax (28 March 2017)

I'm always really surprised as what is classed as rare. I see highlands and Clydesdales everywhere! Are there specific rarer breeds classes?


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## LaurieT (28 March 2017)

Dave's Mam said:



			You didn't mention Exmoors, also classed as a rare breed, Status Endangered, but thanks to many dedicated breeders, numbers are on the increase.
There were only 50 Exmoors left after the 2nd World War & the Rationing (Yes, they got stolen & eaten) & I imagine many native breeds suffered a similar demise.
		
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Unfortunately there are so many on the list  They all can make such cracking ponies


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## LaurieT (28 March 2017)

TheresaW said:



			I have a Suffolk cross. He's been with me for around 14 years. 















Pics taken about 6 months apart, I struggle with his weight in summer. He's retired due to the cross breeding not overly working and his legs not really matching his body. Have always managed to keep on top of it though.
		
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Oh wow he really is gorgeous! What's his history - how did you come across him? I hear Suffolk's are real gentle giants...


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## LaurieT (28 March 2017)

alainax said:



			I'm always really surprised as what is classed as rare. I see highlands and Clydesdales everywhere! Are there specific rarer breeds classes?
		
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"Critical" status is defined as "less than 300 registered adult breeding females in the UK" but I suppose it depends on which part of the country you live in as to which ones you are most likely to come across. Being in the South I see a few New Forests and Exmoors, yet less Highlands and Fells, and definitely hardly any Dales or Clydesdales.
They do have their own Rare Breed classes at many shows, with few entries but at least this generally means the ponies are high quality.
I suppose this is one of the plus sides of them being rare and in low demand - that breeders are being extra careful to select quality over quantity?
I also notice how the Fells and Dales have many similarities, yet the Dales are critical and the Fells are not - I can't help thinking the Fells have more popularity due in some part to the Queen's love of the breed?


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## Dave's Mam (28 March 2017)

I fear I will be banned from the forum if I post any more pictures of my Exmoor.


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## Dave's Mam (28 March 2017)

Ah, ban me, LOL
This is my Exmoor, Darshill Banshee aka Dave at the Rare Breeds of the Year show last year.


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## Dave's Mam (28 March 2017)

alainax said:



			I'm always really surprised as what is classed as rare. I see highlands and Clydesdales everywhere! Are there specific rarer breeds classes?
		
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The status depends on the number of breeding mares.  You may be seeing geldings, non pure breds etc.


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## LaurieT (28 March 2017)

Dave's Mam said:



			Ah, ban me, LOL
This is my Exmoor, Darshill Banshee aka Dave at the Rare Breeds of the Year show last year.








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Ahhh he is gorgeous, and he knows it 

And we can never have too many pictures!!


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## Elf On A Shelf (28 March 2017)

The Kilmannan Stud up here in Scotland breeds Dales ponies and Suffolk Punch's. Mr Ireland loves talking about his ponies. Richard Telford produces them under saddle. His Suffolk mare was 2nd in the Heavy Horse Ridden Class at HOYS last year and will be aiming to go back again this year.


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## Leo Walker (28 March 2017)

Dave's Mam said:



			I fear I will be banned from the forum if I post any more pictures of my Exmoor.
		
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I hope not because I love Dave! You should post MORE so everyone can see how awesome Exmoors are! If I wasnt such a fat heifer then I would have an exmoor and if it turns out I cant actually ride again then I shall have one to drive and show in hand!


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## Dave's Mam (28 March 2017)

I went to a Study Day with Breeders and Judges of Highland & Exmoor ponies a few weeks ago.  So much knowledge & wonderful people, passionate about our native breeds.  David Wallace gave a fantastic talk about the history of the Anchor (formerly Ackland) herd, the first 30 Exmoor ponies to really be managed as a herd.  

There are lots of breeders all over the UK now, my boy is from Darwen & ran on the moor there for the start of his life & there are Exmoors Conservation grazing as far away as the Czech Republic & Germany.


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## Dave's Mam (28 March 2017)

Leo Walker said:



			I hope not because I love Dave! You should post MORE so everyone can see how awesome Exmoors are! If I wasnt such a fat heifer then I would have an exmoor and if it turns out I cant actually ride again then I shall have one to drive and show in hand!
		
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Ha!  Bless you.  He sends a big snog, just for you.


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## Leo Walker (28 March 2017)

I think it probably ties into the whole adults should ride big warmblood horses thing, when actually lots of adults would be sooooo much happier on a lovely native pony. Sound, easy to have around and happy to do anything you ask reasonably. I see so many people horribly overhorsed and having a miserable time, but if they had just bought themself a nice native type they would be out and about having a lovely time.


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## Dave's Mam (28 March 2017)

Leo Walker said:



			I think it probably ties into the whole adults should ride big warmblood horses thing, when actually lots of adults would be sooooo much happier on a lovely native pony. Sound, easy to have around and happy to do anything you ask reasonably. I see so many people horribly overhorsed and having a miserable time, but if they had just bought themself a nice native type they would be out and about having a lovely time.
		
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This, with bells on.  Exmoors, for example, are literally horses on short legs.  Deep in the chest, wide, strong & with great weight carrying ability.  My pony is 12.2hh.  He's in cob / full size bridle bits, a 42 inch girth & 5'9" in rugs.

He has character coming out of his tiny little fluffy ears, but he's as strong as an ox & doesn't let you forget it.  He's also an absolute love.


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## Peregrine Falcon (28 March 2017)

I have to agree.   Lots of folk around here have much fun on NF's, me included!


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## Dave's Mam (28 March 2017)

The Native Pony's downfall is that they are often very opinionated & take a certain type of person to "get" them.  Moorland ponies are very hardwired to "Flight", and it takes a lot of work to build trust.

But when you get that trust, it's a wonderful thing.


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## Dave's Mam (28 March 2017)

Peregrine Falcon said:



			I have to agree.   Lots of folk around here have much fun on NF's, me included! 

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After a few unsuccessful ponies, my friend has just got a Forest & they are loving life.


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## Peregrine Falcon (29 March 2017)

NF are on the watch list as the number of breeding females has fallen.  This is due to the stallion scheme being implemented.  Too many foals were being born and as a responsible society the decision was taken to reduce this number.  

Natives are extremely versatile and great all rounders.


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## Dave's Mam (29 March 2017)

Well, we have JFDT's Dressage, polocrosse & jumping Highlands setting the benchmark.


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## millikins (29 March 2017)

The Eriskay ponies were invited to join the RBST class at a major county show a couple of years back. We drove 85 miles each way to take our mare and there was one other. The judge had been sent the breed standard but pulled them in 17th and 18th in a class of 19. That was behind fat highlands and a shire who was too unbalanced to get round corners without bucking. I know everyone moans about judging but I am experienced enough to know appalling judging when I see it. None of the "critical" breeds were placed highly. If you are going to go the trouble and expense of keeping and showing the rarest ones then it would be nice to think your animal will be given a fair chance. Our pony is too old now but I'd never bother again.


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## windand rain (29 March 2017)

It saddens me to see kids on big warm bloods my 13hh Highland pony was two hands smaller than the rest of the pony club ponies jumping the 80cm cross country course on Sunday It was so obvious that the commentator commented on theirs being one of the best clear rounds he had seen for a long time. She easily competes with the big horses often beating them and very often receiving these type of comments. She finished 5th in a very large class only because neither the rider not I can work out how the optimum time works she is either way too fast or too slow if we steady her up. Fewer than 200 Highland foals were registered last year and that is what makes them endangered. In 5 years time those will be the next generation of ridden ponies most will never have a foal as they are the best, most versatile and companionable of ponies and of course only roughly half will be female.  Fewer dedicated breeders are producing foals as they cannot afford the losses in financial terms It costs a lot more to get a foal to ridden age than the market will support in sale price. It applies to all the rare breeds there are too few being bred, there is not a guaranteed market as ponies are not as popular most but not all kids would rather be on a screen gaming machine than out getting wet and muddy. They are tragically under valued so they will continue to fall in numbers.


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## TheresaW (29 March 2017)

LaurieT said:



			Oh wow he really is gorgeous! What's his history - how did you come across him? I hear Suffolk's are real gentle giants...
		
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I got him when he was around 7. He'd been hunted previously. Some one bought him and he came to the yard where I kept my mare. He was bolshy and quite ignorant, and his owners quickly lost interest and didn't come up for days at a time. I used to muck him out and check his food water etc. I got into contact with them and asked about possibly loaning him as OH could ride him. Went up the yard the next day and he'd gone!  Few weeks later I got a text out of the blue telling me he was for sale if I still wanted him. They wanted £2000, said no way, and got him for £750. 

He is a gentle giant, would put my Nan on him. He has arthritis and ringbone, but has happily lived the life of Riley for the last 3 years bossing the other 2 around.


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## TheresaW (29 March 2017)

Dave's Mam said:



			Ah, ban me, LOL
This is my Exmoor, Darshill Banshee aka Dave at the Rare Breeds of the Year show last year.








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He is gorgeous. I used to ride my friends exmoor when we were kids.


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## pansymouse (29 March 2017)

Dave is very lovely.  Now a photo of him and Ted the tiny would absolutely explode the internet with a cuteness overload.


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## honetpot (29 March 2017)

Dave's Mam said:



			The Native Pony's downfall is that they are often very opinionated & take a certain type of person to "get" them.  Moorland ponies are very hardwired to "Flight", and it takes a lot of work to build trust.

But when you get that trust, it's a wonderful thing.
		
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I think they are just a lot smarter than the people that ride them, they don't suffer fools gladly.The instincts that make them survive in the 'wild' are not sometimes compatible with an owner that wants to stick them in a box for 23 hours a day and then make them go in pointless circles. They have a very low boredom threshold.
   All my ponies are natives, everyone has been a gem, I have them from about two, they live out as much as possible and never do the same thing two days in a row when ridden. My smartest, a welsh A, not a show pony, rides, drives and is a general nuisance but will look after any child that wants to have fun.


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## Mariposa (29 March 2017)

Dave's Mam said:



			Ah, ban me, LOL
This is my Exmoor, Darshill Banshee aka Dave at the Rare Breeds of the Year show last year.








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What a cracking Moorland Mousie lookalike! Beautiful !


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## Widgeon (29 March 2017)

Dave's Mam said:



			This, with bells on.  Exmoors, for example, are literally horses on short legs.  Deep in the chest, wide, strong & with great weight carrying ability.  My pony is 12.2hh.  He's in cob / full size bridle bits, a 42 inch girth & 5'9" in rugs.

He has character coming out of his tiny little fluffy ears, but he's as strong as an ox & doesn't let you forget it.  He's also an absolute love.
		
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What a gorgeous pony! If you don't mind my asking, how tall are you? I do love natives (learned to ride on a Dartmoor then a NF) but have never ridden an Exmoor - visiting family in Dulverton though this summer so am excited about the prospect of finding some to have a try! I'm 5' 8" though (10 stone) and am currently riding a 15.1 Welsh D. Do you ever find the lack of pony between your heels a bit disconcerting...or is there enough of an Exmoor that that wouldn't happen?


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## ester (29 March 2017)

I have never seen so many highlands as I did at PUK last weekend, which was south  I guess those that like them like showing them . Some of the list are good allrounders for some people, other like the hackneys really aren't!


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## SEL (29 March 2017)

I had a fabulous 2 years bringing a hackney pony broodmare back into work. That was getting on for 20 years ago and I don't think I've seen a hackney since sadly.

I am a heavy horse fan and if we had the land at home I have a herd of chunkies. 

"Exmoors, for example, are literally horses on short legs. Deep in the chest, wide, strong & with great weight carrying ability" - my Ardennes has been described as an Exmoor on steroids!


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## tristar (29 March 2017)

years a ago i had lots of different ponies, inc exmoor which i must say  was a fab animal, i am 5`6 he was 13 hands but he was super to ride, lively, forward and a nice front when sat on, not at all like small pony.

there are other rare breeds people are trying to encourage such as the hispano arabe,  and their cross the tres sangres three blood horse, which in many ways is streets ahead of the warmblood with the bonus of being a complete hotblood and breed on very true to type, they do however need a quite high level of riding skill and being work orientated not a weekend hack type of horse, and here is possibly one reason why we don`t see that many, and the natives are quite strong minded and well capable doing great things with  proper time scales and effort given to their schooling


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## The Fuzzy Furry (29 March 2017)

Back in the 70's the Exmoor was cat 1 Critical, then there were less breeding mares than breeding giant panda's.
We had quite a number from mid 70's & bred a few in the early 80's/early 90's, as well as our Fell's.
Ref the Dales, there are quite a few about 'down south' but not that many being shown. I know of 2 southern Dales breeders who now only plan 1 or 2 foals a year, whereas previously they would have 3, 4 or more. Unfortunately people want to (still) pay peanuts for an adult pony & its not economically worth breeding & keeping for 4+ years as well as backing etc.

Many (non-stud) owners of the 2 above breeds tend to 'buy for life'  Not many have the space for breeding though.


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## Dave's Mam (29 March 2017)

Widgeon said:



			What a gorgeous pony! If you don't mind my asking, how tall are you? I do love natives (learned to ride on a Dartmoor then a NF) but have never ridden an Exmoor - visiting family in Dulverton though this summer so am excited about the prospect of finding some to have a try! I'm 5' 8" though (10 stone) and am currently riding a 15.1 Welsh D. Do you ever find the lack of pony between your heels a bit disconcerting...or is there enough of an Exmoor that that wouldn't happen?
		
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I am 5'3", but with an Exmoor, they really do "Take up your leg".


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## Rollin (29 March 2017)

The Cleveland Bay and Suffolk Punch top the RBST critical list.  This year it is forecast that only 18 pure bred Cleveland Bays will be registered in the stud book.  Here are two of mine.  They are full sisters.  If you look at the RaceRare Cleveland Bay and Shagya Arabians Horses FB page you will see photos of the youngest, Duchess at her first SJ event in France.  I think this is a fantastic horse for someone who competes at Riding Club level.  Elegant paces, comfortable ride, stamina, jumping ability and a calm temperament - as the Royal Mews will tell you.  So why is it a rare breed?  Too few pure bred Cleveland Bays are seen in competition.













If you want to support the Cleveland Bay you could join the CBHS BUT WARNING.  Dr. Andy Dell, who was given an award by the RBST for his genetic study of the Cleveland Bay, an award presented by HRH the Prince of Wales, a study which formed the basis of his PhD thesis and helps people like me, select appropriate matings for their mares, in order to reduce/avoid in breeding, has BEEN REFUSED MEMBERSHIP.

If you want to support the Cleveland Bay you can only become a member if 10 people sat in a room in Harrogate agree!!  Not the 300 or so members and breeders like myself who want to see the breed survive.  They are not even required to give a reason. Read members replies on the Cleveland bay Open Forum, which has nothing whatsoever to do with CBHS.

This may be why the Cleveland Bay is critically endangered.


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## JFTDWS (29 March 2017)

Obviously rare breeds are rare for a reason.  They aren't useful for the sorts of jobs people want them to do.

I mean, you don't see many of these rare native types doing dressage...







You don't see them out jumping at RC level - like most folk want to...







There just aren't really any sports out there for them to participate in...
















(and a gratuitous Daemon photo because he's cool too)






They don't even make fun hacks...







So yea, why would anyone want one?


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## Daughter of the Moor (29 March 2017)

Widgeon said:



			What a gorgeous pony! If you don't mind my asking, how tall are you? I do love natives (learned to ride on a Dartmoor then a NF) but have never ridden an Exmoor - visiting family in Dulverton though this summer so am excited about the prospect of finding some to have a try! I'm 5' 8" though (10 stone) and am currently riding a 15.1 Welsh D. Do you ever find the lack of pony between your heels a bit disconcerting...or is there enough of an Exmoor that that wouldn't happen?
		
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A well made up to height Exmoor will easily carry your weight. There are a number of people around your height riding Exmoors with no problems. I had a friend your height who did very well in ridden classes on her Exies. Be warned once you have ridden one you won't want to stop!!!


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## Clodagh (29 March 2017)

I learned to ride on a Dartmoor, he had won at HOYS about 100 years ago and was stunning, would do anything and did make you do things correctly. I then rode connemaras (not rare I know, but native, and seeing them under 14.2 is always a bonus!) ast Hungry Hall stud and then owned a pure connie from there. Wonderful ponies, the only natives I am not madly keen on are the Welsh, I think they have been hotted up too much to fulfil their breed criteria. If I was getting a pony now it would probably be a fell, I love them.
I don't thionk they are more difficult than a warmblood (for instance) but we all want big and flashy now, of course you look much cooler on an 18.2 than a 14hh, even if you are 4'6". not.


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## Lexi_ (29 March 2017)

Rollin said:



			The Cleveland Bay and Suffolk Punch top the RBST critical list.  This year it is forecast that only 18 pure bred Cleveland Bays will be registered in the stud book.  Here are two of mine.  They are full sisters.  If you look at the RaceRare Cleveland Bay and Shagya Arabians Horses FB page you will see photos of the youngest, Duchess at her first SJ event in France.  I think this is a fantastic horse for someone who competes at Riding Club level.  Elegant paces, comfortable ride, stamina, jumping ability and a calm temperament - as the Royal Mews will tell you.  So why is it a rare breed?  Too few pure bred Cleveland Bays are seen in competition.












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Absolutely stunning! My share horse is by a Cleveland Bay stallion but I think his Welsh side is much stronger which is a shame - he could do with some of that calm temperament!


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## ester (29 March 2017)

I don't think we all want big and flashy  and that there are a fair few that have big and flash that are very grateful to get a ride on a 14.2 fun monster  

There's definitely always been a fair few fells and dales in my bit of the south fewer highlands but apparently most people keep them for posh showing after this weekends experience! Welsh were definitely the minority large breed


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## milliepops (29 March 2017)

I want big and flashy, lol!

But I've got small and Welsh  

2 fells and a CB on my yard,  the CB fairly sporty and I really enjoyed riding him when his owner was on hol.  But I do like my little welsh drama llama as I quite enjoy the silly hotness.


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## tristar (29 March 2017)

the tres sangres three blood spanish horse can do all sports except racing against tb, i have one with over 60 percent tb, 16.2hh capable of top class eventing, show jumping, and dressage, working equitation, endurance, showing classes, working showing classes, truly a true sport horse that can  really gallop, collect and jump out its skin.

the tres sangres spanish x arab x tb crossed with connemara or most of the native breeds would be outstanding for todays market and conversly would help to preserve the native breeds, indeed promote them, instead of trying to breed outsize or bigger than breed standard natives crossing them with bigger stallions occasionally then breeding purebreds true to type some years might help, and then putting the crossbreds back to crossbreds of the same high quality to evolve a strain of larger adult size horses, some with more blood than others would give us the types of horse MOST people would truly need for competition or pure pleasure.


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## JFTDWS (29 March 2017)

Welsh definitely the majority in Essex, by a very long way.  

More highlands these days than there used to be, but a fair number are unregistered / not really pure bred (obviously not those you see at the bigger shows).  Similar to the number of Exmoors /Dales / Fell you see around here.


eta, I like the sound of a tres sangres x native.


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## LaurieT (29 March 2017)

JFTD said:



			Obviously rare breeds are rare for a reason.  They aren't useful for the sorts of jobs people want them to do.


So yea, why would anyone want one?
		
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It beggars belief doesn't it!!

What an awesome pony you have there, you must be so proud!! I really am drawn to a true all-rounder, fun pony
None of this big and flashy nonsense for me!


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## Dave's Mam (29 March 2017)

& Laurie T, my apologies, I lost my manners amongst my enthusiasm.  Welcome to the Forum.


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## Dave's Mam (29 March 2017)

JFTD said:



			Obviously rare breeds are rare for a reason.  They aren't useful for the sorts of jobs people want them to do.

I mean, you don't see many of these rare native types doing dressage...







You don't see them out jumping at RC level - like most folk want to...







There just aren't really any sports out there for them to participate in...
















(and a gratuitous Daemon photo because he's cool too)






They don't even make fun hacks...







So yea, why would anyone want one?
		
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I think you just hit it right on the head there.


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## Dave's Mam (29 March 2017)

Daughter of the Moor said:



			A well made up to height Exmoor will easily carry your weight. There are a number of people around your height riding Exmoors with no problems. I had a friend your height who did very well in ridden classes on her Exies. Be warned once you have ridden one you won't want to stop!!!
		
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Exactly!


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## SO1 (29 March 2017)

I have a New Forest and I have no idea why they are a rare breed. The native breeds become rare because not enough people want them and the breeders reduce numbers to be responsible and also because they need to sell enough ponies at a reasonable price to make breeding them viable. 

I can't understand why New Forests are not as popular as Connemara's. Connies are hugely popular and not that dissimilar in athletic ability to a New Forest. New Forests have the additional benefit of being mainly bay so easier to keep clean!

I do think native ponies are becoming more popular compared to say show ponies.  I was at a show last weekend and the native pony classes were well attended whereas some of the show pony and show hunter classes had no entries. 

I expect the native pony market is in indirect competition with the coloured cob market. Some people who may have bought a native pony especially the heavier breeds are possibly choosing cobs instead as they have a similar ability but are probably cheaper.


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## Dave's Mam (29 March 2017)

pansymouse said:



			Dave is very lovely.  Now a photo of him and Ted the tiny would absolutely explode the internet with a cuteness overload.
		
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Ha!  Chaos would reign!



honetpot said:



			I think they are just a lot smarter than the people that ride them, they don't suffer fools gladly.The instincts that make them survive in the 'wild' are not sometimes compatible with an owner that wants to stick them in a box for 23 hours a day and then make them go in pointless circles. They have a very low boredom threshold.
   All my ponies are natives, everyone has been a gem, I have them from about two, they live out as much as possible and never do the same thing two days in a row when ridden. My smartest, a welsh A, not a show pony, rides, drives and is a general nuisance but will look after any child that wants to have fun.
		
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Yes, they are clever, they have to be. 

Check me out with my first ever multiquote post.  *polishes nails & looks smug*


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## Dave's Mam (29 March 2017)

windand rain said:



			It saddens me to see kids on big warm bloods my 13hh Highland pony was two hands smaller than the rest of the pony club ponies jumping the 80cm cross country course on Sunday It was so obvious that the commentator commented on theirs being one of the best clear rounds he had seen for a long time. She easily competes with the big horses often beating them and very often receiving these type of comments. She finished 5th in a very large class only because neither the rider not I can work out how the optimum time works she is either way too fast or too slow if we steady her up. Fewer than 200 Highland foals were registered last year and that is what makes them endangered. In 5 years time those will be the next generation of ridden ponies most will never have a foal as they are the best, most versatile and companionable of ponies and of course only roughly half will be female.  Fewer dedicated breeders are producing foals as they cannot afford the losses in financial terms It costs a lot more to get a foal to ridden age than the market will support in sale price. It applies to all the rare breeds there are too few being bred, there is not a guaranteed market as ponies are not as popular most but not all kids would rather be on a screen gaming machine than out getting wet and muddy. They are tragically under valued so they will continue to fall in numbers.
		
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Sadly true.


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## alainax (30 March 2017)

I have a Friesian and a fell. Does that mean both would be eligible for a foreign/ rare breeds class? I would have had always presumed only the Friesian would be and the fell would have to stick to the m&m.


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## ester (30 March 2017)

I've never seen an athletic new forest  even the leggy ones that look like they should move don't. And another conclusion of the weekend was much as I love welshies if you want to do workers, get a Connie!


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## ester (30 March 2017)

Apart from the Dutch ones  but they are overall quite different.


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## huskydamage (30 March 2017)

I'm suprised about the newforest, I know afew people with newforest and nf x,  myself included. I do think though that the majority of adults are not interested in ponies. Unless you are (no offence intended here at all) a bit short probably you will look a bit silly on a small pony. I have seen someone my height (5'7) on a small exmoor and it looked worse than me on my 14hh ( and we are not pretty!) not that the pony was at all bothered carrying the rider. I think people tend to go for bigger horses, even seen kids on them!


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## Widgeon (30 March 2017)

Daughter of the Moor said:



			A well made up to height Exmoor will easily carry your weight. There are a number of people around your height riding Exmoors with no problems. I had a friend your height who did very well in ridden classes on her Exies. Be warned once you have ridden one you won't want to stop!!!
		
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ooh sounds dangerous! I've never seen any round here (N Yorks) so I might have to go looking.


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## catkin (30 March 2017)

SO1 said:



			I expect the native pony market is in indirect competition with the coloured cob market. Some people who may have bought a native pony especially the heavier breeds are possibly choosing cobs instead as they have a similar ability but are probably cheaper.
		
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No no no. They are quite different animals and have been bred in very different ways for very different purposes. The large natives have always been ridden animals (along with their many other jobs) and it shows. 

As for wanting a 'big flashy horse' - they may not be tall but you don't get much flashier than the Welsh showing at RWAS  ; my Fell pony may not be very tall but he has oodles of presence and quality so is very 'flashy'; the character and presence of the ponies in the pictures on this thread show through very clearly.


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## Daughter of the Moor (30 March 2017)

Widgeon said:



			ooh sounds dangerous! I've never seen any round here (N Yorks) so I might have to go looking.
		
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There are lots and lots of Exmoors in Yorkshire. Contact the Northern Area Rep, details on EPS website and have a look at the Yorkshire Exmoor Pony Trust FB page, YEPT have ponies conservation grazing all over North Yorkshire.


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## catkin (30 March 2017)

This may be teaching grandmother to suck eggs - one thing I would suggest to all owners of rare breeds is to join the relevant breed societies. Even if you don't breed and don't show it is paying back and 'paying forward' to help the breed you love and enjoy.


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## tristar (30 March 2017)

i had a new branded new forest many years ago, it was stunning, knock spots of any warmblood for looks and quality, and a fell, utterly beautiful, exmoor great character, welsh lovely but not my favourite, can be spooky, used to ride a fabulous highland, very active and well balanced.

all these precious breeds should be encouraged and protected by government, but of course that woman is off signing a piece of paper to exit the eu, no doubt she`s never heard of half those ponies.


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## Casey76 (30 March 2017)

One of the reasons I ended up with Mérens, was the fact that they are a rare French native breed. I love a good native


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## tristar (30 March 2017)

i was on a yard in france 14 years ago, a yard with 50 stallions mainly iberian, and they had a merens stallion visit to train, he was stunning, lively, strong, wanted to work, a nice size, a very useful looking breed all round, judging by him, the colour would be popular too.


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## Ddraig_wen (30 March 2017)

I have a Highland, a fell and a Shire as well as various Welshies. I love my Clevelands and had one of Forest Saga's daughters for years. I 'd have another in a heartbeat but I found getting hold of one so impossible that I gave up. I found the CBHS very closed which was a pity. I know a couple of others in my area who spent a long time looking for a nice CB but again acquisition issues.  I've found alot of people have a bad impression of the breed as stubborn and slow but my girl was definitely not.
Its taken me about 3 years to find a Highland that I like and she's absolutely ace, so much easier than the Welshies. I only know of one other Highland near us. I don't know why though, they're so versatile and fun.
I don't know any fells locally at all except our lad. He's stubborn and too intelligent for his own good. He reminds me more of the Welshies in character but I wouldn't ahve him any other way. I don't know why more people don't have them near us. Everyone seems to have a welsh.
There's quite a few Shires locally but more for breeding than riding. Our girl was broken last year after having foals for a few years and so far she seems to love the job. Hopefully going to bring her back into work soon.


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## TTK (30 March 2017)

huskydamage said:



			I'm suprised about the newforest, I know afew people with newforest and nf x,  myself included. I do think though that the majority of adults are not interested in ponies. Unless you are (no offence intended here at all) a bit short probably you will look a bit silly on a small pony. I have seen someone my height (5'7) on a small exmoor and it looked worse than me on my 14hh ( and we are not pretty!) not that the pony was at all bothered carrying the rider. I think people tend to go for bigger horses, even seen kids on them!
		
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Pish, my Quarter Horse is 13.3 hh and I am 5' 5", he is not small and we are balanced with each other visually believe me.  (no offence meant)


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## Rollin (30 March 2017)

catkin said:



			This may be teaching grandmother to suck eggs - one thing I would suggest to all owners of rare breeds is to join the relevant breed societies. Even if you don't breed and don't show it is paying back and 'paying forward' to help the breed you love and enjoy.
		
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If you want to join the Cleveland Bay Horse Society you have to be 'approved' by the Council, this can take up to three months.  If you opt to join at the Great Yorkshire Show, you won't be 'approved' until September.

Dr. Andy Dell PhD who was given an award by the RBST, presented by HRH the Prince of Wales, for his genetic study of the Cleveland Bay, has been refused membership of CBHS - members are outraged.

When breed numbers are critical there is a great danger of inbreeding.  Dr. Dell's study has helped those of who breed Cleveland Bays, to select appropriate stallions for our mares.  Each year he produces tables which enable us to make a choice.  He does this in his own time and free of charge.

Becoming a breed society member may not be the way forward.


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## milliepops (30 March 2017)

Rollin said:



			If you want to join the Cleveland Bay Horse Society you have to be 'approved' by the Council, this can take up to three months.  If you opt to join at the Great Yorkshire Show, you won't be 'approved' until September.

Dr. Andy Dell PhD who was given an award by the RBST, presented by HRH the Prince of Wales, for his genetic study of the Cleveland Bay, has been refused membership of CBHS - members are outraged.

When breed numbers are critical there is a great danger of inbreeding.  Dr. Dell's study has helped those of who breed Cleveland Bays, to select appropriate stallions for our mares.  Each year he produces tables which enable us to make a choice.  He does this in his own time and free of charge.

Becoming a breed society member may not be the way forward.
		
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I can't understand this Rollin, what is the perceived danger from letting anyone join?  From the outside, it would seem the more members the better with a horse population that small. Bonkers.


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## Rollin (30 March 2017)

milliepops said:



			I can't understand this Rollin, what is the perceived danger from letting anyone join?  From the outside, it would seem the more members the better with a horse population that small. Bonkers. 

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This is why the members are so angry.  There is a long thread on the Cleveland Bay Open Forum.


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## Widgeon (30 March 2017)

Daughter of the Moor said:



			There are lots and lots of Exmoors in Yorkshire. Contact the Northern Area Rep, details on EPS website and have a look at the Yorkshire Exmoor Pony Trust FB page, YEPT have ponies conservation grazing all over North Yorkshire.
		
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Sorry, yes, should've explained better - I meant as riding ponies. For general viewing pleasure (!), the ponies on Skipwith Common are close to us.


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## tristar (30 March 2017)

the only horse breed society i join is arab horse society gb, they actively encourage part breds  of all crosses down to 12 half per cent, and value anglos.

the day i gave up worrying about bits of paper and restrictive attitudes was a day i will always remember, the relief was enormous!, lets face it experienced breeders should be free to look to introducing new bloodlines from their point of view because they know where they are with their own stock at any given time, and when considering the next generation, which direction they think best, i call it breeding flair, some people have it.

too many  competition stallions today with the same bloodlines, we need to preserve the different  good examples of native and good crossbreds to return to as a wide genetic base, and widen the choice of individual types representative of as many different bloodlines as possible.


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## pennandh (30 March 2017)

I love my idiot Highland to pieces.

He's a bit spooky sometimes, and occasionally decides life would be much more fun at a flat-out gallop, but he does absolutely everything I've ever asked him to try: western (trail obstacles and barrel racing); jousting; a few minor bits of stunt-riding; dressage (if we could just get the piaffe when I ask for it, too, we'd be golden); jumping all sorts of weird and wonderful objects; hacking out... Hopefully we're going to do side-saddle on the regular fairly soon.

He is the perfect demo pony for kids, not only in terms of ridden stuff, but also the littler ones learning to bridle up, because he's quite happy for ten children to crowd round and all have a go at doing the same thing with him one-after-another, as he loves the attention.

Admittedly, I'd quite like a bit more neck in front of me, and 13.1hh feels a little small when I'm faced with big jumps (I am a wuss and big horses make fences look smaller), but I wouldn't swap the almost 12 years of shenanigans I've had with Mr H. for the world. Rare breeds are fab, and more people should have them.


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## Rollin (31 March 2017)

tristar said:



			the only horse breed society i join is arab horse society gb, they actively encourage part breds  of all crosses down to 12 half per cent, and value anglos.

the day i gave up worrying about bits of paper and restrictive attitudes was a day i will always remember, the relief was enormous!, lets face it experienced breeders should be free to look to introducing new bloodlines from their point of view because they know where they are with their own stock at any given time, and when considering the next generation, which direction they think best, i call it breeding flair, some people have it.

too many  competition stallions today with the same bloodlines, we need to preserve the different  good examples of native and good crossbreds to return to as a wide genetic base, and widen the choice of individual types representative of as many different bloodlines as possible.
		
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Both my rare breeds are from closed stud books.  The Cleveland Bay and the Shagya Arab.  I don't have a problem with this thanks to the work of Dr. Andy Dell we can select matings wisely to avoid in-breeding in the CB population.  I have three mares/fillies from the same mating but already have frozen semen for two at West Kington which is compliant, one is for a deceased stallion for whom there is no more frozen semen - I have the last.

I also cross Shagya and Clevelands, we know that the CBXTB makes a fantastic sport horse I believe the Shagya is as good as if not better.

However I really support continuing to breed pure bred from the closed stud book - you know what you are getting.  There are plenty of opportunities to cross out, although as you rightly say the rules and regulations we breeders are subjected to are somewhat dispiriting!!


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## tristar (31 March 2017)

Rollin i agree with you on all that in the way of preserving pure bred stock with cbs, but i am also looking to the future.

i am in favour of cross breeding but as you say, with pure bred you know what you might get, however by using actual crossbred stallions with all top bloodlines and no warmblood or heavy horse ancestry i find the results very exciting.

i love the s arab this is a horse to come back to time and again for outcrossing and its great to know people such as yourself have the vision to keep the breeds going, if fact i would probably have used a s arab if one had been available if i had not found the stallion i have now, and there is another difficulty for rare breeds if stallions are not easily accessible.


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## Shazzababs (31 March 2017)

Rollin said:



			Both my rare breeds are from closed stud books.  The Cleveland Bay and the Shagya Arab.  I don't have a problem with this thanks to the work of Dr. Andy Dell we can select matings wisely to avoid in-breeding in the CB population.  I have three mares/fillies from the same mating but already have frozen semen for two at West Kington which is compliant, one is for a deceased stallion for whom there is no more frozen semen - I have the last.

I also cross Shagya and Clevelands, we know that the CBXTB makes a fantastic sport horse I believe the Shagya is as good as if not better.

However I really support continuing to breed pure bred from the closed stud book - you know what you are getting.  There are plenty of opportunities to cross out, although as you rightly say the rules and regulations we breeders are subjected to are somewhat dispiriting!!
		
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My TBxCB to add some gratuitous pics to the crossing is nice point:


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## Rollin (31 March 2017)

tristar said:



			Rollin i agree with you on all that in the way of preserving pure bred stock with cbs, but i am also looking to the future.

i am in favour of cross breeding but as you say, with pure bred you know what you might get, however by using actual crossbred stallions with all top bloodlines and no warmblood or heavy horse ancestry i find the results very exciting.

i love the s arab this is a horse to come back to time and again for outcrossing and its great to know people such as yourself have the vision to keep the breeds going, if fact i would probably have used a s arab if one had been available if i had not found the stallion i have now, and there is another difficulty for rare breeds if stallions are not easily accessible.
		
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When we lived in Scotland I found it both difficult and expensive to import frozen semen from a Shagya stallion.  We have collected from our home bred stallion and have frozen semen available in USA and just across the channel in Normandy.  He is graded for the SHGB Head Stud Book, Shagya Stud Book A and just been accepted for the North American Shagya Society - from our point of view the economics don't work out!!!  Good for the breed though.


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## irish_only (31 March 2017)

Not read it all yet, but I do know that HM the Queen has started crossing her Cleveland Bays due to a health issue that plagues the breed.


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## irish_only (31 March 2017)

Sorry me again! One of the things I say repeatedly on FB is why do people not support our lovely native breeds instead of buying yet another non descript of unknown breeding hairy cob, when potential buyers defend this by saying they only want a happy hacker/sensible pony.


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## Rollin (31 March 2017)

irish_only said:



			Not read it all yet, but I do know that HM the Queen has started crossing her Cleveland Bays due to a health issue that plagues the breed.
		
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What health issues are these?  I lost one pure bred mare to colic.  Until then she was in good health.  I currently have five pure bred and two part-bred, I sold another mare last year.  Non of these have/have had health issues other than knocks or accidental injury.

I think you will find she crosses them because there are too few for the Royal Mews. This year she has two pure bred foals due from her own mares.  A few years ago she offered to swop mares for geldings as geldings make better carriage horses.


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## tristar (31 March 2017)

i think people need to ride better to take on a good type of native, a hairy cob can be very one pace going nowhere confidence giver, the natives can be too good a ride for novices, up the teaching  standard of riding is needed,  a lot of welsh cobs are very lively, the highland i used ride was really forward and up at the front and balanced wonderful to ride, a welsh sec a i rode had wonderful paces and flowed along effortlessly, a pure dartmoor pony we had was almost the ideal childs pony,  in holland and france the connemara is considered a top class show jumper, a welsh cob was champion junior show jumper of europe, a few years back.

its great that the s arab is now more  available and hope people realize the possibilities of pure and cross breds, a few years might make a big difference hopefully to acknowledging the potential there, now it is available.


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## SO1 (1 April 2017)

This is my new forest (British Bred)

He is athletic, he can jump out of his stable from standstill, he can jump over post and rail fence and limbo under electric fence, he is fast and can turn at speed when he wants to! 

Unfortunately I am not a very good rider so I can't take advantage of his natural abilities and potential. He is also quite opinionated and clever which I think is a native pony trait and makes him perhaps a bit more challenging but also endearing. 






[/IMG]

This is a small jump as I am a wimp but he can jump much bigger than this.










ester said:



			I've never seen an athletic new forest  even the leggy ones that look like they should move don't. And another conclusion of the weekend was much as I love welshies if you want to do workers, get a Connie!
		
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## Leo Walker (1 April 2017)

How big his he SO1? He looks huge in the first pic!


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## tristar (1 April 2017)

i france a new forest stallion ridden by a girl of 13 and trained by le cadre  noir competes at a very high level, he is like the one we had, quite elegant, but  he is FIT and RIDDEN a lot, not festering and fat , its only when you invest in the lengthy training and regular work that you will get the rewards and discover what is in any horse or pony, that caramello donkey on you tube is the perfect example, the ponies and horses are potentially capable of great things, its the riders and trainers that are big time crap.


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## ester (1 April 2017)

SO1 said:



			This is my new forest (British Bred)

He is athletic, he can jump out of his stable from standstill, he can jump over post and rail fence and limbo under electric fence, he is fast and can turn at speed when he wants to! 

Unfortunately I am not a very good rider so I can't take advantage of his natural abilities and potential. He is also quite opinionated and clever which I think is a native pony trait and makes him perhaps a bit more challenging but also endearing. 






[/IMG]

This is a small jump as I am a wimp but he can jump much bigger than this.






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Were you at PUK SO1 I think we saw you?

Perhaps I should clarify I do mean athletic in movement (I did say move rather than leaping/escapee abilities ), but they were also notably lacking in the open workers compared to other breeds though I do know a few BSJAing in general it is not their forte unless european bred where they seem to have sportified them a bit. There was a particularly leggy stallion about last weekend who looked like a smart sports pony stood up but really had very little stride to speak of. They are good at what they do but it depends what you want them for. My friend had a fab one who as comparative youngster stalwartly ignored my welsh being a tit while they did pairs dressage , he was solid as but medium trot was a struggle.

I should mention I have hunted with a fair few, it was nice sharing a meet with the New Forest as I wasn't the only adult on a pony


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## Rollin (1 April 2017)

tristar said:



			i france a new forest stallion ridden by a girl of 13 and trained by le cadre  noir competes at a very high level, he is like the one we had, quite elegant, but  he is FIT and RIDDEN a lot, not festering and fat , its only when you invest in the lengthy training and regular work that you will get the rewards and discover what is in any horse or pony, that caramello donkey on you tube is the perfect example, the ponies and horses are potentially capable of great things, its the riders and trainers that are big time crap.
		
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Years ago, a British and French breeder in France purchased some NF stallions.  The National Stud refused to accept them as pedigree horses so they could not compete in equivalent to affiliated competitions.  The stallions were castrated which caused outrage.  It took us 3 years to get the Cleveland Bay recognised as a pedigree horse.

Once we had 'recognition' we had a meeting with a Director of the National Stud who told us that France set out to breed a Selle Poney - Poney Club is very popular here (not like UK Pony Club).  When they wanted to 'make' a Sellle Poney they purchased Welsh, NF and Connemara.


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## tristar (1 April 2017)

about thirty something years ago there was no ponies to speak of in france and germany, i have been at auctions in the uk when they were buying to take abroad lots of british native ponies, they saw the quality and potential in those animals, took them to france and germany bred and trained them then re marketed them as poneys francais de selle and german sports ponies, what a shame the british government do not see what they have in their own back yard, as a lot of other countries subsidise horse breeding.

i saw several nf pony stallion at the haras nationale in st lo

i had a mare who`s foal i wanted to reg in france, and was told i would have to reg her in selle francais stud, at a cost of 240 euros, she would then be a selle francais, but when they realized the father was a three blood they were erm.. shocked, they showed me a sf passport and said if you reg her you will get a passport like this one and showed me a sf horses passport, as i idly flicked through it i counted 9 different races in this horses passport, including a trotteur francais, i suddenly lost interest in their stud book decided to breed what i want when i want, out of horses who`s origins and bloodlines are verifiable for many generations.

one pony stallion i looked at using on the continent was actually sired by an arab that belonged to my grandfathers friend, `but no,  the woman said he is a german sports pony` 

they have a list in france of breeds that are accepted or not accepted by les haras nationaux , i saw it in the flesh at the office, but you can`t do that really to an exsisting stud book.


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## Orangehorse (1 April 2017)

The French have also developed the Henson as a breed.  Lives out, around 14.2-15 hh, sturdy, easily carry adults, yet nice temperament.  Bred on the Somme and the mares and youngstock live out on the seaside marshes in the summer months. A really nice, useful type purpose bred.

I think it is a shame that the New Forest is not more popular, I think they are far more people friendly than the ubiquitous welsh cob.  Connemara ponies are great competition animals, but many adults would think that even the larger natives = Highland, Dales, New Forest - are too small, but they probably aren't.  I would far rather have a Highland or Dales than a coloured cob.

Warmbloods have taken over as they have been deliberately purpose bred for sports.  There hasn't been an equivalent breeding policy for family/leisure type ponies in the UK as I suppose there simply isn't any money in it.  

The only "family type" horse I can think of as opposed to a competition animal is a Morgan, which is an American breed of course.


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## irish_only (2 April 2017)

Rollin said:



			What health issues are these?  I lost one pure bred mare to colic.  Until then she was in good health.  I currently have five pure bred and two part-bred, I sold another mare last year.  Non of these have/have had health issues other than knocks or accidental injury.

I think you will find she crosses them because there are too few for the Royal Mews. This year she has two pure bred foals due from her own mares.  A few years ago she offered to swop mares for geldings as geldings make better carriage horses.
		
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It was inside information and I can't remember, other than it being genetic. 

I know she has been trying to breed more greys as she used my old chap on a few mares, but it is very difficult to breed a grey from a CB unless he has homozygous grey.


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## SO1 (2 April 2017)

He is only 13.3 so not huge at all!



Leo Walker said:



			How big his he SO1? He looks huge in the first pic!
		
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## Rollin (2 April 2017)

tristar said:



			about thirty something years ago there was no ponies to speak of in france and germany, i have been at auctions in the uk when they were buying to take abroad lots of british native ponies, they saw the quality and potential in those animals, took them to france and germany bred and trained them then re marketed them as poneys francais de selle and german sports ponies, what a shame the british government do not see what they have in their own back yard, as a lot of other countries subsidise horse breeding.

i saw several nf pony stallion at the haras nationale in st lo

i had a mare who`s foal i wanted to reg in france, and was told i would have to reg her in selle francais stud, at a cost of 240 euros, she would then be a selle francais, but when they realized the father was a three blood they were erm.. shocked, they showed me a sf passport and said if you reg her you will get a passport like this one and showed me a sf horses passport, as i idly flicked through it i counted 9 different races in this horses passport, including a trotteur francais, i suddenly lost interest in their stud book decided to breed what i want when i want, out of horses who`s origins and bloodlines are verifiable for many generations.

one pony stallion i looked at using on the continent was actually sired by an arab that belonged to my grandfathers friend, `but no,  the woman said he is a german sports pony` 

they have a list in france of breeds that are accepted or not accepted by les haras nationaux , i saw it in the flesh at the office, but you can`t do that really to an exsisting stud book.
		
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When we take friends to visit the Cadre Noir/National Equestrian Centre they are amazed by the SF "They are all different".  They resemble everything from an Ango-Arab to a Norman Cob.  Pre SF it was a demi-sang which was a TBxNorman Cob.  I have actually found 5 CB's in the SF stud going back about 10 generations.  I come back to my two closed stud books -they are like peas in a pod.  Look at my brother and sister Shagya jumping in France two weeks ago photo on the Breeding Forum.


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## Rollin (2 April 2017)

Orangehorse - so many people are 'over-horsed' by their warm bloods.  Big strong horses with more and more TB.  Our natives are much more suited to riding club riders.  I have a Highland too.


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## catkin (2 April 2017)

Orangehorse said:



			The French have also developed the Henson as a breed.  Lives out, around 14.2-15 hh, sturdy, easily carry adults, yet nice temperament.  Bred on the Somme and the mares and youngstock live out on the seaside marshes in the summer months. A really nice, useful type purpose bred.

I think it is a shame that the New Forest is not more popular, I think they are far more people friendly than the ubiquitous welsh cob.  Connemara ponies are great competition animals, but many adults would think that even the larger natives = Highland, Dales, New Forest - are too small, but they probably aren't.  I would far rather have a Highland or Dales than a coloured cob.

Warmbloods have taken over as they have been deliberately purpose bred for sports.  There hasn't been an equivalent breeding policy for family/leisure type ponies in the UK as I suppose there simply isn't any money in it.  

The only "family type" horse I can think of as opposed to a competition animal is a Morgan, which is an American breed of course.
		
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Actually in the UK there are a few 'family horse' breeds that have been bred for hundreds of years - yep, you've guessed it, they are collectively called native or m&m ponies. they can be sharp little competition horses too if you've got the dash to ride/drive them right


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## SO1 (2 April 2017)

Yes I was at the PUK champs. I was very lucky to qualify both in hand and ridden as I don't have my own horsebox and can only afford to do a couple of shows a year. He is 15 now and I have had him for 10 years and I expect most of the other competitors have gone to more shows in one year than we have been in 10! Last year we only did the breed show and one PUK qualifier. He didn't go as well as he can do as it was a bit overwhelming for both us in the ridden. He needs to be able to move forward to be at his best and I just didn't have the ring craft experience to enable me to get the best out of him with the space and number of ponies in the class, as well as being nervous.

I also am paranoid about laminitis so I like to keep him slim and fit so he was not in typical "show condition" for the in hand class either.

When I bought him 10 years ago I did want to do some workers with him and started having some lessons with a workers producer who said he had the ability to be very successful. Unfortunately I was just too nervous and soon realised I would not be confident to jump 95cm. As you can see from this photo 60cm made me feel a bit worried! I know he is overweight in this photo but it was a long time ago and I don't let him get this fat anymore!







The connies are being bred more commercially than the NF and a lot are going over height because people want 14.2 as bigger ponies seem to do better in the show classes and have an advantage in the workers. Average height of a NF is 13.2-14h. The continental Foresters are being bred more like sport ponies but I think whilst this makes them more commercial there is a risk that they move away from being a true traditional native pony that can winter out on the Forest to a more generic sports pony which I think would a be shame but then if people don't appreciate the more sturdy types then maybe the breed has to evolve to survive.

Our next outing is bit different as we are going to do a Le Trec. I have never done the orienteering before so a new challenge!






ester said:



			Were you at PUK SO1 I think we saw you?

Perhaps I should clarify I do mean athletic in movement (I did say move rather than leaping/escapee abilities ), but they were also notably lacking in the open workers compared to other breeds though I do know a few BSJAing in general it is not their forte unless european bred where they seem to have sportified them a bit. There was a particularly leggy stallion about last weekend who looked like a smart sports pony stood up but really had very little stride to speak of. They are good<script id="gpt-impl-0.08051968456565284" src="https://securepubads.g.doubleclick.net/gpt/pubads_impl_112.js"></script> at what they do but it depends what you want them for. My friend had a fab one who as comparative youngster stalwartly ignored my welsh being a tit while they did pairs dressage , he was solid as but medium trot was a struggle.

I should mention I have hunted with a fair few, it was nice sharing a meet with the New Forest as I wasn't the only adult on a pony 

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## Leo Walker (2 April 2017)

SO1 said:



			He is only 13.3 so not huge at all!
		
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Hes lovely! Perfect example of why more people should have natives


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## SO1 (2 April 2017)

Thank you.

I couldn't love him any more if I tried, he is my pride and joy. I bought him as a 5 year old, 10 years ago and he has enabled me with limited natural riding ability and resources to do a wide range of activities. I was originally looking for a Connemara and didn't know anything about New Forests. Even 5 a year old Connemara at the time was about £6,000 and in the end I realised I could not afford one, so I thought I would wait and save up more money to get one, but saw my lovely NF on horsequest and thought I would try him, he was 5 and only £3,000 so half the price of a Connie. Whilst we have had some challenges along the way he has proved to be a great pony, NF like a lot of the rare breeds mentioned are hidden treasures.  



Leo Walker said:



			Hes lovely! Perfect example of why more people should have natives 

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## ester (2 April 2017)

He was lovely, you did fab and he was super well behaved  and definitely in lovely condition.  Rara's sister picked him out as her fav as soon as you came in .  I'm not a showing bod generally so it was an educational weekend . I was partly watching because I will be looking to get another at some point (F is 24 and semi retired now) and was trying to see which direction I might go in - given that not having a welshie is very hard for me to consider currently! Frankly the welshies doing the workers were ermm very welsh even those with a good prior record to the point that I thought if I wanted a consistent jumper I might want to look elsewhere . But that depends if I want to jump or not. 

I agree re. the continental versions moving away from the traditional forester, same with welshies and other natives they have had though. As you say essentially the purpose of many including foresters is to be able to live in the rough and it definitely moves away from that. Personally I think there is probably room for both options so long as the numbers in each don't get too small if that makes sense and each has it's place. Our local knackerman used to go and buy up from the sales and throw them in a field for sale to anyone who wants them, friend has had about 10 in that time and only 2 were tricky even as unhandled 4 year olds, everything else was easy to start. One of them I was sat on within a week of breaking when the local caravan park started a firework display, he only moved about 2 strides. He went on to be a fab pony club pony and the girl still owns him 15 odd years down the line, we used to see her a lot at 2'9ish hunter trials and ODE but he always struggled with the time because he didn't really cover the ground. So I am definitely not a downer about them, but 'athletic' does always depend what you are comparing to and owning a welshie and your best mate having a TB definitely highlights that when you go up the gallops! 

This is an old photo of Frank and his forester best mate doing what natives do best post pairs dressage . restocking


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## Dave's Mam (2 April 2017)

SO1, your pony is gorgeous & what a fine example of our natives.


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## SO1 (2 April 2017)

Thank you that is very kind of you to say so.

If I was wanting to do the big workers and had a decent budget I would go for a Connie. Foresters can jump just as well but they tend to be smaller and as there are less of them you don't have so much choice. For example there are 98 Connies advertised on horsequest compared to 13 Foresters, and most of the foresters advertised are under 14h.  I do have friends who have Section D's who are fantastic jumpers but they are the lighter type and don't move like the more traditional showing D's with the big powerful trots.  

I don't understand why Cleveland Bays are not more popular, they look great and they are a popular size. Are they difficult to handle, or do they not jump?

Hopefully this thread might inspire someone who might not have thought of having of the rare breeds to give them a chance. The only warning I would give to those who are not experienced with native ponies is that weight management is an issue and they often need a combination of plenty of exercise and restricted grazing/food to keep them a healthy weight.




ester said:



			He was lovely, you did fab and he was super well behaved  and definitely in lovely condition.  Rara's sister picked him out as her fav as soon as you came in .  I'm not a showing bod generally so it was an educational weekend . I was partly watching because I will be looking to get another at some point (F is 24 and semi retired now) and was trying to see which direction I might go in - given that not having a welshie is very hard for me to consider currently! Frankly the welshies doing the workers were ermm very welsh even those with a good prior record to the point that I thought if I wanted a consistent jumper I might want to look elsewhere . But that depends if I want to jump or not. 

I agree re. the continental versions moving away from the traditional forester, same with welshies and other natives they have had though. As you say essentially the purpose of many including foresters is to be able to live in the rough and it definitely moves away from that. Personally I think there is probably room for both options so long as the numbers in each don't get too small if that makes sense and each has it's place. Our local knackerman used to go and buy up from the sales and throw them in a field for sale to anyone who wants them, friend has had about 10 in that time and only 2 were tricky even as unhandled 4 year olds, everything else was easy to start. One of them I was sat on within a week of breaking when the local caravan park started a firework display, he only moved about 2 strides. He went on to be a fab pony club pony and the girl still owns him 15 odd years down the line, we used to see her a lot at 2'9ish hunter trials and ODE but he always struggled with the time because he didn't really cover the ground. So I am definitely not a downer about them, but 'athletic' does always depend what you are comparing to and owning a welshie and your best mate having a TB definitely highlights that when you go up the gallops! 

This is an old photo of Frank and his forester best mate doing what natives do best post pairs dressage . restocking 






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## ester (2 April 2017)

My D will jump the moon in the right mood, they just prone to being a bit precious about it and anchoring on. Other friend has a bigger also ginger version of Frank whom she has BSJAd for years and usually he is either top 3 or eliminated depending on how he feels that day . I feel a bit old for too many anchors now  I'd have to diet a lot to go for pure connie . I struggle to see me not with an actual horse though , their ears always seem a long way away 

TBF to the welshies stopping at their workers course the open horses was less technically and most of them failed too (and someone got loudly told off by the judge for not galloping :eek3: 

Regarding CBs I actually think it is down to pure lack of numbers, no one can buy them if they don't exist. And the more people have them as riding horses or people outcrossing them with TBs etc the fewer mares there are to use for breeding pures and it seems the society hasn't really got on top of what they are actually doing .  They are certainly a more practical colour than say an ID  (that is an issue with most connies too!)


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## Feival (2 April 2017)

This little one is off of bodmin so no real idea what sort of breeding she has, but she is a little superstar, bold as brass, jumps like a stag, moves very nicely but also has an attitude twice the size of her 14.1hh body.


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## Dave's Mam (2 April 2017)

Yes, SO1.  I also hope this thread will encourage people to consider a native.

They are fun, hardy, talented & as all of these posts show, can turn a hoof to anything.

Natives Rule.


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## LaurieT (4 April 2017)

Dave's Mam said:



			& Laurie T, my apologies, I lost my manners amongst my enthusiasm.  Welcome to the Forum.  

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 That's quite alright! Hello!! *waves cheerily*

It's so lovely to see so many people enjoying their natives, and if this thread encourages even just one person to take one on, then that's a success in my eyes!


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## Nici (19 April 2017)

What we see on TV and in films does not really help the native breeds: usually the characters sit on a handsome, tall and shiny horse, your typical warmblood. If we are not shown how much fun can be had with a pony or how graceful they can look, the thought of owning one will not even cross our minds. I reckon that kind of promotion could go far in promoting the native breeds.


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## Dave's Mam (19 April 2017)

Nici said:



			What we see on TV and in films does not really help the native breeds: usually the characters sit on a handsome, tall and shiny horse, your typical warmblood. If we are not shown how much fun can be had with a pony or how graceful they can look, the thought of owning one will not even cross our minds. I reckon that kind of promotion could go far in promoting the native breeds.
		
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And this article did a good representation of the skills of the Exmoor.  More please, H & H!

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/features/exmoor-pony-pictures-613186


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## MochaDun (19 April 2017)

Great that you are doing your bit to support and highlight native breeds.  I love them. Was looking for a pure native when I was getting my pony - started looking at a Haflinger (yes...I know.. but native to Austria!) then moved onto Highlands and ended up with a cob x native. His native element I think is mainly New Forest.  And I love that survival above anything else trait of him - much though we can have the odd flight moment which is not always based on reason, just instinct!  For work I got to travel the length of the UK looking at some amazing examples of our native breeds and meet some wonderful people supporting and breeding them and learnt loads of history about some of the breeds that I didn't know. Met some fantastic ponies in the process.


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## YasandCrystal (20 April 2017)

I love native breeds. I have had Welsh sec Ds in the past and now (as well as a WB) have a registered Dales gelding. He is rising 7 and I have owned him since he was a 2 year old. I backed him myself at 5 and we have had such fun since doing distance rides a little jumping and xc (I am older) dressage, agility, pole clinics. I feel I can have a go at anything with him. It is sad that the natives are often overlooked. They are so much hardier in every respect and that fact is backed up by the insurance companies and vets.
I am very lucky as he has grown to a good 15hh


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## MotherOfChickens (20 April 2017)

lovely Dales!


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## xelliex123x (20 April 2017)

Thanks Laurie, this was a really interesting read! I have found out a few things I didn't know (Cleveland Bay has always been a pub to me... haha) 

It's also made me want a Dales pony!


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## tristar (20 April 2017)

there is a cracking new forest for sale on the ads at the side, certainly shows what they can do!


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## Laika (20 April 2017)

This is my little Exie, Bluebarn Nancy A.K.A Laika. 

Native ponies are the absolute best. I have had mine just short of a year and I absolutely adore her. She's the best thing I've ever done with my life. They do present some challenges but she is full of character. 

P.S I hope I did an alright job posting a photo... never done it before


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## supsup (20 April 2017)

I think pointing at individual examples of pedigree natives for examples of what they can do is pointless. Yes, there are great individuals for all sorts of purposes amongst rare native breeds, but the same is true for the general, non-pedigree native pony population (including your coloured cobs and various cross breeds). 
I think the relevant question is: what does a registered rare breed native offer (at a steeper price, most likely) that a non-pedigree native cannot offer at a cheaper price? IMO, the rare breeds don't have sufficient distinguishing qualities, and apart from showing, breed does not matter for most of the common competitive uses (jumping, dressage, eventing...). Other native breeds  that are not rare stand out more, e.g. Haflingers for their distinct palomino colour, Icelandics for their special gaits. 
One thing that pedigree can potentially offer is more control over the genes that go into the horse, and thus potentially more confidence in the individual's capabilities. But IMO that argument only holds water if both  parents are performance tested (and at least to me, showing success does not equal performance - it would have to be athletic performance in some discipline that demonstrates the pony's character and soundness for purpose). But as far as I am aware, none of the British breeds require performance testing of the sire, let alone the brood mares.
That's my view anyway, on why rare native breeds are not more popular. Nothing wrong with the ponies themselves, they just don't have very strong selling points, IMO.
The other thing you get if you buy a rare native is instant access to a "club" (breed society) of hopefully like minded  people. But if there is internal conflict in the society, that may be less fun than it sounds.


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## Dave's Mam (20 April 2017)

supsup said:



			Other native breeds  that are not rare stand out more, e.g. Haflingers for their distinct palomino colour, Icelandics for their special gaits.
		
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Neither Haflingers nor Icelandics are native, unless you live in Austria or Iceland.


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## supsup (20 April 2017)

Sorry, should have said: "native type breed". My point being that people go to the trouble (including myself, have an Icelandic) to buy pedigree native type horses that are not British because they offer something that the British natives don't have. Five gaits, in my case.
I can't think of anything offhand that would make me go: "I need to get a New Forest, because I want my pony to have a particular quality that only a New Forest will provide."


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## tristar (20 April 2017)

we don`t really need to performance test natives because we have been riding them for so long we know what they can do, and they breed very true to type in particular environments which keep them true to type.

we don`t need foreign judges telling us whats what, they can stick to testing their own horses which are generally too genetically diverse to breed from without testing.


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## milliepops (20 April 2017)

have to agree with supsup to a degree here, before I ended up with a sec D by accident, I'd never have considered a pure bred native for sport.... I happen to have ended up with a particularly athletic one but they are few and far between in my discipline, at the higher levels.

I think some kind of performance testing would be a positive step as I would also not consider showing to be reflective of athletic ability or capacity for higher level training   I wouldn't be that interested in a rare breed native for the sake of owning a member of a dwindling gene pool, but if they had some kind of proven ability for sport then it becomes more attractive.  I'm not sure why this would have to involve foreign judges?!


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## MotherOfChickens (20 April 2017)

milliepops said:



			have to agree with supsup to a degree here, before I ended up with a sec D by accident, I'd never have considered a pure bred native for sport.... I happen to have ended up with a particularly athletic one but they are few and far between in my discipline, at the higher levels.
		
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the vast majority of riders never reach nor want to reach the higher levels. Natives fulfil the remit of family ponies, riding club horses and low maintenance all rounders that can try their hand to most things.


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## tristar (20 April 2017)

but the british natives have been taken by the foreigners and performance tested! not long a go a pure welsh cob stallion was champion junior show jumper of europe! and i have seen many, many natives and their crosses performing across europe.

be interesting to see how millie`s welsh goes on in the future.

i think they are already a predicatable package that only need to meet the right trainer, i know the ones i have ridden felt wonderful, and while i have only ever ridden one warmblood, which i thought as the most boring thing ever and wanted to get off after 5 minutes, the memory sensation of riding british natives will stay with me for ever, i could just feel the potential they had.


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## milliepops (20 April 2017)

MotherOfChickens said:



			the vast majority of riders never reach nor want to reach the higher levels. Natives fulfil the remit of family ponies, riding club horses and low maintenance all rounders that can try their hand to most things.
		
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No, granted, but there's so much hearsay and generalisation about the characteristics of the various breeds that is not terribly helpful in choosing your next mount..

the "stuffy" cleveland bay
the "hysterical" welsh
the "stubborn" highland...  when you've had a good one then you know they are individuals, just the same as any other horse... I dunno. I'm not suggesting that you'd go native because you wanted to go 4* eventing, but you could combine the family pony elements with even lower affiliated levels quite easily.  All the major horse sports are trying to make the lower levels more accessible, look at BE80, My Quest/Team Quest, etc both of which are extremely popular and you don't need a WB for either, you need a good trainable sound horse.... which could well be a native, if native owners wanted to aim a little higher than family pony status 




tristar said:



			but the british natives have been taken by the foreigners and performance tested! not long a go a pure welsh cob stallion was champion junior show jumper of europe! and i have seen many, many natives and their crosses performing across europe.

be interesting to see how millie`s welsh goes on in the future.
		
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From reading posts on here, the european versions of our natives are somewhat barstardised, more mini WBs not really recognisable like our versions though?  
Ah, I'll be interested to see how my welsh gets on too, lol - she was supposed to be sold as a low level allrounder some time ago but turned out to be too much fun... I've learnt not to get carried away with dreams of great achievement as fate often intervenes but we're enjoying the ride anyway


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## supsup (20 April 2017)

My point about performance testing isn't about the capabilities of the breed - there are very capable individuals already. But I'm guessing those that go abroad and are performance tested there rarely come back to Britain to stand for stud and contribute to the British bloodlines. Or do they? It's about the predictability/potential of the offspring of the registered sire/dam. IMO, that is the only advantage of pedigree over just evaluating each individual as it presents at the time you go out to buy him/her. So I think a system (breed society) that can provide a certain guarantee or likelihood that the offspring will be suitable for whatever the defined purpose is will have an advantage on the market over horses that don't have that sort of pedigree. This is pretty much what the German warmblood and German sports pony system is about.
I agree though that many people wanting natives don't need a super high performing jumper/eventer. Still, I would argue that a horse that does well in a physically demanding sport is more likely to have a conformation that stands up well to work, and is inherently trainable. Those two are requirements that are pretty universal, even for leisure horses.
The Icelandic horse society (international) has recently started to introduce a leisure horse assessment process that is aimed at evaluating sales horses for temperament (things like standing to mount, dealing with spooky things, going away from other horses...) in order to better match them to potential (leisure) buyers. Personally, I'm not totally convinced by that idea because I think a lot of the things they test for can be trained, and don't have a lot to do with the innate character of the horse, but it's encouraging to see that they are trying to do something to promote the breed for the leisure market, not just for sports competition.
As I said, I don't think there's anything wrong at all with the British native breeds, merely with their visibility on the market.


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## ester (20 April 2017)

See I don't think there is an issue with people knowing how great natives are, I know LOADS of people with them. They are all well aware of how good they are for what they want to do (which is often, like me, a bit of everything with relatively little fuss  but I know a fair few out SJ/BE/stressage). 
I do think quite a lot of welshies (of all sections) at least could do well pure dressage if schooled correctly on the basis that they do have more natural movement than some of the other natives for whom moving too extravagantly would be seen as a bad thing. It's just not that frequent they end up under the right rider to do so. If I decide I don't want to jump seriously and want to do stressage I can see me ending up with another anyway.


oh and for the record, haffies are NOT palomino, ever.


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## tristar (20 April 2017)

machno carwyn, might be spelt wrong! champion of europe, show jumping pure bred WELSH COB bought straight of the farm in wales does`nt get any more high performance than that.!

most decent euro competed pony stallions don`t need to return to gb they are available by ai.


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## ester (20 April 2017)

It is interesting he came off the farm as he is very sports pony in type/light.


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## PorkChop (20 April 2017)

We have some breeding Highland mares close to us, all three in foal, one just been born this week   I can't believe there are so few breeding mares recorded.  They have their own stallion who always tries to impress my horse when we ride past 

I would love a Welsh D, but whenever I am looking I can't find one big enough!


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## MotherOfChickens (20 April 2017)

PorkChop said:



			I would love a Welsh D, but whenever I am looking I can't find one big enough!
		
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how big do you want it? Do you know Meikle in D&G? or there's Maesmynach in Wales.


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## tristar (20 April 2017)

although carwyn is sec d he has welsh b also.

and he is a fit competition pony, not something you see very often sadly.


in fact he is called the best pony in europe and probably the world.

so gone out there and shown the world just what a british native is made of, so sad they have to go abroad to do it., and on here all you seem to hear is `what a nice allrounder they can be` Machno carwyn best in the world!


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## ester (20 April 2017)

I am looking at structure not fitness, I can do fit welsh . His sire has a massive shoulder! The added B does make sense though, I had missed the bottom line of his pedigree thinking I recognised the rest of it. He seems to have  thrown a fair few smaller than himself too so I wonder if that is why.  
The disparity in type has always interested me, owning a not long legged fit in a square box one . I've often referred to him as old fashioned but actually if you go back the difference in types has been there a long time.


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## PorkChop (20 April 2017)

MotherOfChickens said:



			how big do you want it? Do you know Meikle in D&G? or there's Maesmynach in Wales.
		
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I was looking for something 15.3hh plus, complicated by the fact that I wanted a mare.  All of the breeders I contacted had their four year old plus mares in foal, never mind whether they were over height or not!

Not got space for one at the moment


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## SO1 (20 April 2017)

The New Forest Pony society does have a performance and grading scheme in dressage and show jumping.

http://www.newforestpony.com/pg_dressagejumping.php.

Competition wise if you are a small adult who does not want to ride a horse then there are more options if you have a native pony than if you have a non native. There are lot of age restrictions on showing and working hunter classes that mean an adult would not be able to compete in these classes on a pony unless it is a native pony. I wanted a pony due to being a small adult and wanted to be able to compete and a native pony gave me the most choices of classes, my new forest is not just a show pony, he is versatile, for example he recently got placed in a Le Trec competition. 




milliepops said:



			have to agree with supsup to a degree here, before I ended up with a sec D by accident, I'd never have considered a pure bred native for sport.... I happen to have ended up with a particularly athletic one but they are few and far between in my discipline, at the higher levels.

I think some kind of performance testing would be a positive step as I would also not consider showing to be reflective of athletic ability or capacity for higher level training   I wouldn't be that interested in a rare breed native for the sake of owning a member of a dwindling gene pool, but if they had some kind of proven ability for sport then it becomes more attractive.  I'm not sure why this would have to involve foreign judges?!
		
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## eriskaypony (24 April 2017)

Rollin said:



			If you want to join the Cleveland Bay Horse Society you have to be 'approved' by the Council, this can take up to three months.  If you opt to join at the Great Yorkshire Show, you won't be 'approved' until September.

Dr. Andy Dell PhD who was given an award by the RBST, presented by HRH the Prince of Wales, for his genetic study of the Cleveland Bay, has been refused membership of CBHS - members are outraged.

When breed numbers are critical there is a great danger of inbreeding.  Dr. Dell's study has helped those of who breed Cleveland Bays, to select appropriate stallions for our mares.  Each year he produces tables which enable us to make a choice.  He does this in his own time and free of charge.

Becoming a breed society member may not be the way forward.
		
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Andy presented his genetic work to the AGM of the Eriskay Pony Society this weekend past. He has produced his SPARKS tables for the Eriskays and the breed society are working with him and the RBST to actively use them to identify and encourage desirable breeding.


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## DanceswithCows (25 April 2017)

I love rare breeds and it was a long held ambition to one day be able to do something about numbers.  I assumed it wouldn't happen for a while as I can't afford stables and dedicated land for it all.  Thanks to my burgeoning career in conservation grazing however I was able to sneakily fasttrack - enter the Exmoor!  I needed a pony that would not detract from farm activities in cost or labour: if they can truly look after themselves, they have 500acres and counting to play in.  

So I was able to give 5 mares from exmoor a home and they are just about to be joined by stallion Helmantor Hannibal.  I was a bit worried about having a stallion but he's been super chilled and no bother at all.  I likely won't breed again for a while, the fillies will stay here as replacements for the older mares, the stallion is off to Germany after fulfilling his duties here, and I would like to keep a pair of geldings to train for driving for myself.  

I think driving's really underappreciated and could help natives - one of the reasons I can't indulge my love of suffolks, hackneys and CBs is because I can't transport them (no B+E and not the budget to run a big 4x4/horsebox), and because hacking's a bit pants here and boring on your own, if I can't transport it's not really worth my bothering!  Meanwhile, little ponies require much less in the way of resources but as an adult you can still get your fix of speed and competition in driving, even if your knees aren't up to riding, you can't keep your weight down etc.  Jumping makes a lot of people nervous - scurry etc. are just like doing a jumping round but without the actual jumps   Being small and agile with a good burst of speed is a plus, so natives are ideal for it.  At home, driving is more social than riding in many ways - you can load up complete novices with a picnic and have a nice day together, unlike trying to find someone to ride with....


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## tristar (25 April 2017)

DanceswithCows, that`s brilliant!


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## Rollin (25 April 2017)

eriskaypony said:



			Andy presented his genetic work to the AGM of the Eriskay Pony Society this weekend past. He has produced his SPARKS tables for the Eriskays and the breed society are working with him and the RBST to actively use them to identify and encourage desirable breeding.
		
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Isn't he a wonderfully motivating asset to any rare breed society?  We purchased our CB stallion - because we liked him but also because he was a good SPARKS mate for our mares.  For his own filly foals we already have frozen semen for appropriate SPARKS stallions.

One of the first CB mares we purchased was 'in-bred' as the result of an accidental covering.  I would not change anything as we love her to bits BUT she proved difficult and 'expensive' to put in foal four cycles of AI, empty, four cycles natural covering empty.  We had almost given up when we decided to give it one last try with our Shagya stallion - result.  In those days we did not understand the importance of the SPARKS programme.

There is a lot of controversy in CBHS as to the value of compliant matings.   I know how easy it has been to put my 'non inbred' mares in foal so I hope new breeders of Cleveland Bays are not so bowled over by the latest smart filly that they ignore the future breeding prospects for that filly.  Andy Dell has said if no one breed SPARKS compliant foals it will be eventually be the end of the breed.  This work is really important.


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## Rollin (25 April 2017)

Dances with Cows - I bought my first horse for ride and drive and was sure he was a part-bred CB, that started my passion for the breed.  Driving is a great leisure pass-time when you your joints tell you it is time to hand up your riding boots.


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## texascbs (2 May 2017)

Fun discussion.   I have two purebred mares and one partbred colt.   Purebred Cleveland Bays are great but take a lot of work as they mature later.


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## DanceswithCows (2 May 2017)

That Andy guy does indeed sound like an asset, I'd snap him up!  I'm relying on those in the know about exmoor lines to tell me what makes a good mating for mine and we seem to have found a good fairly unrelated match for them this time round.  

Driving IS great if you are in any way unable to ride, but I think it'd be good to promote it to young people, especially boys because there was debate a while back about how to tempt boys into horses and I think the perfect solution is to stick wheels on and basically chariot race   we don't want to make it out to be the poor relation of riding iyswim?


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