# The (re)start of a golden era of Badminton?



## teapot (12 May 2014)

So after this weekend's exploits, are we about to see a return to big and bold tracks?


From the armchair perspective I hope so; yes it was messy and probably more finishers would be better but no one or horse was injured and there was some true horsemanship shown (Francis W mainly!).


----------



## Cragrat (12 May 2014)

I think it would have been far less messy if there had been less mud and less wind. I also wonder if some horses were fit enough this early in the season?  Many years ago I think horses came to badminton having not long finished the hunting season - now few people risk their top horses in the hunting field, and there are few competitions before badminton to tune up and test fitness.
I also got the impression that in general, a bit of a sweeping statement, but it seemed that many less experienced riders had their horses fitter than many of the more experienced riders.  Perhaps some people had become complacent?  Or did the less experienced riders worry and err on the side of caution and got their horses 'over-fit' (for a normal year) but for a tough course like this it paid off?

But I ramble, sorry.  To answer your question OP, yes, I hope we do see more courses like this, and fewer 3 day dressage tests!


----------



## popsdosh (12 May 2014)

Sorry CR but I failed to see any mud on the course(dam near perfect footing) it was just a case of under preparation and I saw some awful riding without naming names. I dont accept there is not enough time in the spring to prepare as riders have always managed ,they are mostly professionals after all.There are loads of high level events leading up to Badminton and none of those suffered for the weather this year. The course is more draining when it runs in that direction but that is something thats known. At the end of the day you cannot have your horse over fit for a 4* like that however over recent years when it has become a dressage competition I can see why some riders may have let off the fitness work to keep the lid on.


----------



## VRIN (12 May 2014)

I hope it does remain a true test, its so much more exciting to watch for the spectators and it used to be what Badminton was all about - the pinnacle of the sport. 

Last year was such a boring event and i can't believe riders really want it 'dumbing down'. 

I suspect next year there will be a lot of riders much better prepared than they 'appeared' to be this year. It may be that the horses themselves were not suitable for the demands of Badminton so a different choice of horse may also be needed - there has been a lot of talk of 'warmbloods', fitness and 'hitting the wall'.


----------



## lannerch (12 May 2014)

Wasn't it great, and can only be good for eventing as a whole , even my non horsey oh was glued to the screen!

The conditions although not visably muddy were far from ideal and certainly contributed as wet is gluey and each stride more tiring than dryer conditions, and the wind really did not help either,  that said I'm sure fitness was an issue.

Remember in the old days riders used to have to prepare for the roads and tracks as well.

 And agree Last years dressage test competition  would certainly discourage preparation to produce the super fit horse required to complete this year.


----------



## TGM (12 May 2014)

VRIN said:



			there has been a lot of talk of 'warmbloods', fitness and 'hitting the wall'.
		
Click to expand...

I don't think it is as simple as the old 'warmbloods v TBs' debate - look at horses like Minos de Petra (Selle Francais) and Billy Beware (by a KWPN stallion out of a Holsteiner sired mare) which both completed the course well and finished in the top 10.  I think there were many, many different factors involved including the wet ground, the new demands of the course, the wind, very few let up fences, the direction the course ran, the demands of the two enormous corners at a point when horses were at their most tired etc.


----------



## ClobellsandBaubles (12 May 2014)

VRIN said:



			I suspect next year there will be a lot of riders much better prepared than they 'appeared' to be this year. It may be that the horses themselves were not suitable for the demands of Badminton so a different choice of horse may also be needed - there has been a lot of talk of 'warmbloods', fitness and 'hitting the wall'.
		
Click to expand...

There were a lot of full or nearly full TBs that didn't make it either though.


----------



## Hedgewitch13 (12 May 2014)

I  thought it was fantastic this year - a real test of horse and rider. I would have liked to have seen less falls, some were just awful, but everyone got up and there weren't any bad injuries, as far as I know.

Hopefully there will be a lot of lessons learnt on how to tackle a proper 4* course!


----------



## popsdosh (12 May 2014)

TGM said:



			I don't think it is as simple as the old 'warmbloods v TBs' debate - look at horses like Minos de Petra (Selle Francais) and Billy Beware (by a KWPN stallion out of a Holsteiner sired mare) which both completed the course well and finished in the top 10.  I think there were many, many different factors involved including the wet ground, the new demands of the course, the wind, very few let up fences, the direction the course ran, the demands of the two enormous corners at a point when horses were at their most tired etc.
		
Click to expand...

Both above carry a large % TB selle Francais in general are TBs by another name as they are allowed to race in France ,both KWPN and Holsteiner stud books have lots of TB blood


----------



## Twiglet (12 May 2014)

popsdosh said:



			Sorry CR but I failed to see any mud on the course(dam near perfect footing) it was just a case of under preparation and I saw some awful riding without naming names..
		
Click to expand...

I was surprised how much of the course held up, but the ground was holding and energy sapping, and there is no doubt the wind would have had a huge influence. At some points during the day - at more exposed points - it was a struggle to stand up, let alone gallop through.


----------



## Darremi (12 May 2014)

They always  mention head or cross winds as a factor in racing so I can understand that the winds on Saturday may have tired the horses too.

I agree that TBs and WBs alike were very tired at the end.

If you were planning to take a horse to Badminton it might be a good idea to take fitness advice from a racing trainer. I would imagine a Grand National horse's work routine may provide useful information for the four star eventer.


----------



## Darremi (12 May 2014)

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think racehorses canter 6-7 days per week. Whereas an eventer may only do 2 canters per week.

I think that is where the key to this fitness problem lies.


----------



## TGM (12 May 2014)

popsdosh said:



			Both above carry a large % TB selle Francais in general are TBs by another name as they are allowed to race in France ,both KWPN and Holsteiner stud books have lots of TB blood
		
Click to expand...

As do many of the modern warmbloods, hence why I think the old warmblood versus TB debate is rather past its sell by date now!


----------



## lannerch (12 May 2014)

teapot said:



			there was some true horsemanship shown (Francis W mainly!).
		
Click to expand...

I almost find this comment offensive am I the only one? Yes Francis showed truly inspirational horsemanship putting his horse before glory however he was certainly not mainly the only display of horsemanship.
Izzy springs to mind as does nick, wfp until he fell, tappers and others .


----------



## Twiglet (12 May 2014)

Darremi said:



			They always  mention head or cross winds as a factor in racing so I can understand that the winds on Saturday may have tired the horses too.

I agree that TBs and WBs alike were very tired at the end.

If you were planning to take a horse to Badminton it might be a good idea to take fitness advice from a racing trainer. I would imagine a Grand National horse's work routine may provide useful information for the four star eventer.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe why Tina Cook is such an effective rider/producer!


----------



## Maesfen (12 May 2014)

Cragrat said:



			I think it would have been far less messy if there had been less mud and less wind. I also wonder if some horses were fit enough this early in the season?  Many years ago I think horses came to badminton having not long finished the hunting season - now few people risk their top horses in the hunting field, and there are few competitions before badminton to tune up and test fitness.
I also got the impression that in general, a bit of a sweeping statement, but it seemed that many less experienced riders had their horses fitter than many of the more experienced riders.  Perhaps some people had become complacent?  Or did the less experienced riders worry and err on the side of caution and got their horses 'over-fit' (for a normal year) but for a tough course like this it paid off?

But I ramble, sorry.  To answer your question OP, yes, I hope we do see more courses like this, and fewer 3 day dressage tests!

Click to expand...

Badminton used to be in late March/early April so it's now much later than it used to be; I still find it hard to get used to it being so late!
Yes, lack of fitness was the prime cause of the trouble but it was apparent at the seemingly lack of commitment from the 'big' riders at some of the fences almost as if they had stopped riding by intuition and glue; I mean, come on, when did you last see AN ride a fence so sloppily or the great MT suffer indecision on his first ride and he does seem to have a thing about The Lake to ride it so badly the next time?  I hope it's shook them all up out of their complacent technical courses, it was a real breath of fresh air.  It was also funny to hear Tina say about they don't have many ditches on courses now which virtually means the XC that is 'normal' now is virtually only SJ over undulating ground (if they're lucky)
Bring back the old true test which Badminton used to be and which this course showed it could be again, the most respected course in the world; I take my hat off to the course designer and give him my thanks for showing us the way back to proper eventing.


----------



## Maesfen (12 May 2014)

TGM said:



			As do many of the modern warmbloods, hence why I think the old warmblood versus TB debate is rather past its sell by date now!
		
Click to expand...


But you'll never get as good a quick brain that can think for itself unless it has a majority of TB blood, that's been proved time and time again plus the TB is far easier to get and stay fit properly which comes down to their special type of muscle.  There was a study somewhere to show IIRC, that while WBs might be stronger size for size, the TB was by far the better all round enduring athlete.


----------



## ihatework (12 May 2014)

I think it was a fantastic Badminton.
Yes there were a combination of factors that made a new tough course even tougher but I think this is exactly what the sport needed. A real shake up - a true test that woke people up yet didn't see really bad horse/rider falls. The frangible pin showed it's true worth.

It will be interesting to see if the other 4*'s follow suit over the next couple of years.

It will be even more interesting to see if we get a divide between the 4*'s and the Championship courses (which have become dressage competitions) - will riders divide their horses up and aim some for the 4* and keep others as the championship models?


----------



## ihatework (12 May 2014)

Maesfen said:



			But you'll never get as good a quick brain that can think for itself unless it has a majority of TB blood, that's been proved time and time again plus the TB is far easier to get and stay fit properly which comes down to their special type of muscle.  There was a study somewhere to show IIRC, that while WBs might be stronger size for size, the TB was by far the better all round enduring athlete.
		
Click to expand...

Oh you can certainly get a quick brain with a warmblood! Sure some a pig thick, but not all. You get the odd dopey tb too.
I do agree on the fitness though .... much easier on TB blood.


----------



## Dunlin (12 May 2014)

I really enjoyed this years Badminton and yes it did hark back to the golden era. I always thought of the XC stage of Eventing being a test of bravery and fitness, much like a days hunting. In recent years the XC has been mostly technical and stylish with 'pretty' jumps. I cannot remember ever jumping a wooden hedgehog holding a flower pot out hunting! 

Big logs, gates, water, ditches and brushes are all things you do find out in the natural countryside. I appreciate the requirement for dress fences for photography and something a little different for the horse to perhaps back away from but not a whole heap of them.

The weather was testing, mainly the energy sapping wind which stirred things up with regards to time penalties, the ground seemed pretty good to me and I do think it was a test of horsemanship as well as bravery, fitness and skill. A fair few top riders ran out of puff early on, this could well have been down to the wind and maybe the ground a little bit but we have had an atrocious winter to get through with flooding all over the place so I'd imagine a lot of riders struggled to get their horses out galloping/cantering in the countryside in the UK. I know that the majority of XC schooling areas here in Dorset were closed for a good 4-6 months due to flooding and very boggy ground!

Finally, with the success of the frangible pins I think course designers can get back to building big bold natural courses now knowing that they can build a big fence which will give way when a horse/rider gets it wrong. I have to say that Mark Phillips is probably the only course builder that hasn't changed much, for the past few years I have looked at Burghley as more of a test than Badminton.

Oh, 1 more point. I appreciated those 2 big corners at Huntsmans this year. You need to save some petrol for those and a lot of riders tried the direct route with a very tired horse and many others came unstuck going the long route. Going back to 90's Badminton's, depending on which way it was run you either had the Sunken Road or The Quarry late on and they were always big and always caught a few out who hadn't saved some petrol.

I think Giuseppe della Chiesa did a fantastic job, we had a proper competition, not (as someone earlier said) a 3 day Dressage event. I hope this gives confidence to other course builders to follow suit and get back to proper Eventing with proper natural cross country courses. 

Oh oh oh... last thing, honest. Someone mentioned the Grand National, I remember when Badminton had the double Aintree fences, they should definitely bring back those!


----------



## Nag_Nag_Nag (12 May 2014)

The problem I see is riders/horse ability for that particular level (this is far from me attacking peoples ability btw). We seem to be making the lower level courses easier (pressure from riders and BE to make them easier) as well as the qualification. Its a huge jump up from say Weston Advanced to Badminton, yet a lot of Badminton bound horses use Weston as a warm up. I realize they are different levels, but it is a HUGE jump up. Add to the fact there have been a number of events cancelled this year, so runs have been sparse.


----------



## armchair_rider (12 May 2014)

I thought it was great. The one proviso I would make was that most of the top Germans were missing which was probably going to make it less of a dressage contest anyway. I do agree that there would have been more finishers in better weather - though that does beg the question of how many finishers you'd want. And actually 36 out of 80 finishing isn't hideously low anyway (Ludwing Svennerstal was eliminated after finishing hence only 35 going forward).

I certainly would like to see this as the beginning of a new era in course building - bigger fences, greater sustained difficulty, relative lack of skinnies (and the skinnies there were had been effectively placed - lots of problems with the escalator and outlander bank). The big problem with this would be, as somebody has already said, the difficulty in producing this type of course in the compact semi-urban venues that championships are tending to be held in.

As to whether this would lead to polarisation in the sport... Arguably it already has. Horses are being picked for teams because of their dressage and SJ ability rather than being great XC (remember the arguments over whether Opposition Buzz should be picked for the Olympics?) and the current German dominance owes a lot to excellence in these two phases.

The other interesting point was that although this was an old-fashioned 4* it was ultimately younger riders who emerged at the top.


----------



## claracanter (12 May 2014)

Dunlin said:



			Finally, with the success of the frangible pins I think course designers can get back to building big bold natural courses now knowing that they can build a big fence which will give way when a horse/rider gets it wrong. I have to say that Mark Phillips is probably the only course builder that hasn't changed much, for the past few years I have looked at Burghley as more of a test than Badminton.


I think Giuseppe della Chiesa did a fantastic job, we had a proper competition, not (as someone earlier said) a 3 day Dressage event. I hope this gives confidence to other course builders to follow suit and get back to proper Eventing with proper natural cross country courses.
		
Click to expand...

I agree with Dunlin on this. With the improved safety standards all round, perhaps course builders will return to the bold and brave courses I remember watching as a child.


----------



## LittleOwl (12 May 2014)

I'm another who thinks fitness was the main issue. There isn't much of an excuse as some horses finished full of running - the time might have been a little tight but the time pens added to it all! The corners in huntsman's close may have been a little big for the end of the track but as others have said they should have saved petrol

I also thought it was particularly important that no horses or riders were injured, despite the lack of finishers.

Correct me if i'm wrong but considering who finished and who didnt, maybe our top riders are becoming complacent (or maybe its because it was so easy last year)??


----------



## Exploding Chestnuts (12 May 2014)

I could see the course was good to soft in places, though it held up well over the event, it had no gimmicks, and although one or two fences were not easy, and some needed a lot of courage to ride sucessfully, some horses were not able to jump due to incorect presentation at the fence. They all seemed very professional and if a few ran out of petrol, I think it was due to the course riding more tiring than in previous years. Few horses get the perfect preparation for any event, so it is not surprising that a few had to withdraw before the end. If ground were better more would have got round.
Its the weather!


----------



## TGM (12 May 2014)

Maesfen said:



			But you'll never get as good a quick brain that can think for itself unless it has a majority of TB blood, that's been proved time and time again plus the TB is far easier to get and stay fit properly which comes down to their special type of muscle.  There was a study somewhere to show IIRC, that while WBs might be stronger size for size, the TB was by far the better all round enduring athlete.
		
Click to expand...

I agree that the TB brings an awful lot of good things to the mix, and the modern warmblood has benefitted a lot from TB blood.  The point I was trying to make is that the majority of warmbloods out eventing today are not the heavy, chunky models that we saw 20 years ago, but lighter, faster and often with very quick brains as well, which as you rightly point out may be down to the TB blood.


----------



## Exploding Chestnuts (12 May 2014)

LittleOwl said:



			I also thought it was particularly important that no horses or riders were injured, despite the lack of finishers.

Correct me if i'm wrong but considering who finished and who didnt, maybe our top riders are becoming complacent (or maybe its because it was so easy last year)??
		
Click to expand...

When top riders take on a horse to prepare for Badminton it is a big commitment for rider and for owners, but I think that riders to some extent have to work with what they have got, whereas individual owner riders can only enter at this level if they know their horse is outstanding. I may be wrong, but it is a possible reason for the varied results.


----------



## Clare85 (12 May 2014)

I think maybe it was a general lack of prep and expectation. It was clear during many rider interviews in the couple of days before xc day that a lot of riders were concerned about the test ahead. I have to say this did surprise me because last year there were lots of riders asking for a beefier track after last year's event. But there were definite nerves and uncertainty coming across. Hopefully this year's course has given everyone a good old shake up and we'll continue to see testing courses and exciting competition in the future.


----------



## armchair_rider (12 May 2014)

I think the top riders probably have less invested in the competition - they aren't under such pressure to get round because they know that their sponsors won't ditch them and they have the resources to re-route the horse to Luhmuhlen or Chatsworth. WFP chose to withdraw one of his horses despite having the potential for a Grand Slam which suggests that he has a lot of freedom in what he does. In contrast the publicity associated with getting round and finishing high will probably be a big boost for the Dutch riders, Izzy Taylor, Ludvig Svennerstal etc.

That said it is interesting that so many top riders were eliminated - in Mary King's case the conditions may have been too much for the horse but you'd certainly have expected Mark Todd and Andrew Nicholson to get round. (Mind you Toddy's second ride was a masterclass in dealing with awkward horses).


----------



## ihatework (12 May 2014)

LittleOwl said:



			I'm another who thinks fitness was the main issue. There isn't much of an excuse as some horses finished full of running - the time might have been a little tight but the time pens added to it all! The corners in huntsman's close may have been a little big for the end of the track but as others have said they should have saved petrol

I also thought it was particularly important that no horses or riders were injured, despite the lack of finishers.

Correct me if i'm wrong but considering who finished and who didnt, maybe our top riders are becoming complacent (or maybe its because it was so easy last year)??
		
Click to expand...

Over the years courses have evolved into what we have seen in the last few years at badminton. Riders have prepared their horses accordingly.

This time the course obviously altered the questions slightly and combined with the conditions it made it a different test for the horse. No bad thing in my book.

Do bare in mind that lots of the top horse/rider combinations retired after just one problem. For the big names its not always about completing, it's about what their priorities are for the horse later in the season. Many of those horses will now have an extra run elsewhere for not continuing at badminton.


----------



## hcm88 (12 May 2014)

Fitness an issue definitely, the ground and conditions were energy sapping even though they looked ok. The ground was soft, horses were slipping and the wind/rain was tough. Certainly not as bad as expected as we didn't get the rain forecast, but not great conditions for the new big course. 

Thoroughbreds naturally have that bit extra stamina, you can get horses to their full possible fitness and it still may not be enough. On perfect weather/ground conditions I would imagine those who ran out of petrol at the Huntsman's Close would have been ok, but you needed that bit extra this year as the ground took that little bit more out of them.

I think riders will take a lot away from it both in preparation and mentality. I hope Badminton stays this way - safe but tough and a huge test. It shows you can have a tough test without it being unsafe or dangerous, I can imagine its just given riders a wake up call.


----------



## Maesfen (12 May 2014)

MrsD123 said:



			When top riders take on a horse to prepare for Badminton it is a big commitment for rider and for owners, but I think that riders to some extent have to work with what they have got, whereas individual owner riders can only enter at this level if they know their horse is outstanding. I may be wrong, but it is a possible reason for the varied results.
		
Click to expand...

So what about Nereo and Parklane Hawk; they're hardly just 3* horses as their previous results prove and coupled with their top riders they should have pi$$ed it but instead, ended up making silly mistakes at relatively easy fences while others like Imperial Cavalier had lost a bit of confidence - or was it not enough positive riding from riders that should have known better?  
I have to admit to watching WFP and AN setting off and settling back, thinking I was now seeing a master in action who would show how easy they could make it; I'm sure I wasn't alone to be gobsmacked at what actually happened with them both.
Incidentally, has anyone seen/known what happened with PH at that hedge as the camera angle only really showed him tipping up, you couldn't see why?


----------



## Goldenstar (12 May 2014)

Reflecting I feel perhaps so many of the fences where built on undulations that it just sapped the horses and riders mentally as well as physically .
And that rate of attrition would not be acceptable without the frangible pins .
To many good horses with riders with unbelievably experienced riders came unstuck people who I simply don't believe did not have horses fit enough.
Still working through what I feel about it defiantly the most thought provoking days XC I can remember watching .


----------



## chestnut cob (12 May 2014)

Maesfen said:



			Incidentally, has anyone seen/known what happened with PH at that hedge as the camera angle only really showed him tipping up, you couldn't see why?
		
Click to expand...

From the TV camera angle, looked like he left a front leg and tipped up?  Not sure though.  I was also gobsmacked at seeing that fall!  To see so many of the top riders come a cropper was pretty incredible (not as in "wow, that's amazing" incredible, just :-0 ), but good to see some new faces in contention.  It must have certainly shaken things up a bit!


----------



## Vanha12 (12 May 2014)

popsdosh said:



			Both above carry a large % TB selle Francais in general are TBs by another name as they are allowed to race in France ,both KWPN and Holsteiner stud books have lots of TB blood
		
Click to expand...

Agree with this - I have a holsteiner x ID.  On paper she sounds like she should be very chunky but she is often mistaken for being at least 3/4 tb#1 There is tb and selle francais in her line.


----------



## TGM (12 May 2014)

Overall I thought the increase in difficulty in the course was a good thing, it was unfortunate that the weather conditions on the day increased the demands on horse and rider.  The only bit I didn't like was the big corners at Huntsman's Close - I think it would have been a fair question if situated differently, but coming towards the end of the course after a long incline there were pretty unforgiving obstacles to tackle when the horses were already at their limits.  Seeing some of the horses banking them and one actually getting stuck on top was quite scary, though thankfully none seem to be hurt.


----------



## rachel_s (12 May 2014)

Maesfen said:



			So what about Nereo and Parklane Hawk; they're hardly just 3* horses as their previous results prove and coupled with their top riders they should have pi$$ed it but instead, ended up making silly mistakes at relatively easy fences while others like Imperial Cavalier had lost a bit of confidence - or was it not enough positive riding from riders that should have known better?  
I have to admit to watching WFP and AN setting off and settling back, thinking I was now seeing a master in action who would show how easy they could make it; I'm sure I wasn't alone to be gobsmacked at what actually happened with them both.
Incidentally, has anyone seen/known what happened with PH at that hedge as the camera angle only really showed him tipping up, you couldn't see why?
		
Click to expand...

The Times write up says Parklane Hawk was found to have an irregular heartbeat which may have contributed to the WFP fall.  Nicholson is quoted as saying Guiseppe did a very good job.  Some of us riders were found wanting. Goes on to say the wet weather was unfortunate but he had no gripes about the course.  Toddy is quoted saying it reminded him of his first win in 1980 - and it's putting badminton back where it belonged - the best in the world.


----------



## el_Snowflakes (12 May 2014)

I absolutely loved it this year. This is what badminton is all about, world class horse & rider combinations.


----------



## TGM (12 May 2014)

rachel_s said:



			The Times write up says Parklane Hawk was found to have an irregular heartbeat which may have contributed to the WFP fall.
		
Click to expand...

That's interesting.  I was wondering whether some of the horses that did not complete had some subclinical physical weaknesses that might only show when they are pushed to their limits by the course and the weather conditions.  Not only heart, but very mild respiratory conditions, the beginnings of a virus etc., which you would normally not notice.


----------



## RachelFerd (12 May 2014)

It made for excellent viewing - I nearly fell asleep watching last year, no risk of that this year! When walking the course I would've agreed with  TGM, I thought those corners were seriously beefy and not terribly forgiving for the end of the course. I feel the flagging on the corners could have been more helpful, as it does seem rather unjust that two riders (gemma tattersall and ludwig svennerstal) effectively jumped good rounds but were technically eliminated despite their horses utmost efforts to jump whatever was in front of them.

Like Maesfen I also sat back thinking we were seeing masters at work with WFP and AN and was truly shocked to see them fall foul of what were largely 'insignificant' fences.

I loved having the vicarage vee back, thought it was a great test that caught a few out, but when jumped well, it looked to jump REALLY well.

Also praise must go to Nick Gauntlett whose horse looked like a nice one for the future - he appeared to be happiest rider of the day when completing!


----------



## Jango (12 May 2014)

I was there on Saturday and the ground was good! It was the wind that was the problem it was really really strong, just walking into the wind was a challenge at times, hats were being blown off etc. We were camping and tents/marquees were being blown down constantly! I know myself from running it's more tiring on a windy day, so with the horses large surface area it must make a big difference, also to their breathing I would imagine, so they were finishing tired. 

The track was fabulous though! Frangible pins are a fantastic invention and prevent injuries, yet allow for proper Badminton fences. 

Also at Huntsman Close there was a long option avoiding the very tricky direct route with the huge corners on the angle, some of the less experienced riders chose the long route here to try and stay clear which was a sensible choice! I think next year (if the weather is v different) will be very interesting to see how everyone fares.


----------



## LEC (12 May 2014)

Warmblood vs TB is a dull now - The winner was less than 50% TB,  the fastest horse round the course is maybe 50% TB but could have been less as dam line is incomplete. Who cares? The traditional ISH ruled for years with ID x TB - what is the difference now with TB x Hostein etc etc? Nick Gauntletts horse is the most interesting as bred for dressage and virtually no TB but Hannovarian. Yes it looked tired but it made it home and kept jumping which many did not. 

Also about ditches- Tattersalls and Bramham have some mean ditches. Ireland also has an early season event with a mean ditch - Ballendenisk sp? What about Centaurs Leap or is that not a mean ditch? Frankly a horse is not going to get to even 2* level without being au fait with ditches. 

Do I think riders were complacent? No, but some did make errors and they did not get away with them.


----------



## firm (12 May 2014)

Geoff Curran and his horse did a fab round, came home looking fit and full of running despite having had only 1 run in the last 14 months!


----------



## teapot (12 May 2014)

lannerch said:



			I almost find this comment offensive am I the only one? Yes Francis showed truly inspirational horsemanship putting his horse before glory however he was certainly not mainly the only display of horsemanship.
Izzy springs to mind as does nick, wfp until he fell, tappers and others .
		
Click to expand...

It was just one example of many that I couldn't be bothered to list at midnight last night.


----------



## frostyfingers (12 May 2014)

Someone (Ian Stark) I think mentioned that the extra loop towards the new water fence was uphill and seemed to take quite a lot out of horses.  Wind is hugely tiring and must have had a significant effect on several horses.


----------



## Gamebird (12 May 2014)

teapot said:



			It was just one example of many that I couldn't be bothered to list at midnight last night.
		
Click to expand...

I think the objection was to the word 'mainly' which implies it was pretty much only Francis who displayed the horsemanship. If you'd written 'amongst others, Francis' that would imply that there were several who displayed it, but that you'd just picked one example.

I knew what you meant, but it's a classic example of the written word deceiving. If the conversation had been spoken I suspect you'd all have agreed and no-one would have been offended. On here the nuance becomes lost so any lack of precision (for example as might happen around midnight  ) can lead to mis-interpretation.


----------



## teapot (12 May 2014)

Gamebird said:



			I think the objection was to the word 'mainly' which implies it was pretty much only Francis who displayed the horsemanship. If you'd written 'amongst others, Francis' that would imply that there were several who displayed it, but that you'd just picked one example.

I knew what you meant, but it's a classic example of the written word deceiving. If the conversation had been spoken I suspect you'd all have agreed and no-one would have been offended. On here the nuance becomes lost so any lack of precision (for example as might happen around midnight  ) can lead to mis-interpretation.
		
Click to expand...

So it would appear and perhaps I should have said sportsmanship rather than horsemanship too. Hope I didn't offend you either


----------



## Gamebird (12 May 2014)

teapot said:



			So it would appear and perhaps I should have said sportsmanship rather than horsemanship too. Hope I didn't offend you either 

Click to expand...

Me? I don't care about anything . I could just see exactly where the problem arose and fancied a spot of umpiring


----------



## Honey08 (12 May 2014)

Maesfen said:



			Incidentally, has anyone seen/known what happened with PH at that hedge as the camera angle only really showed him tipping up, you couldn't see why?
		
Click to expand...

p

We were right in front of it when they fell. They came in nicely to it. PH looked a bit tired, but nothing too bad considering where they were on the course. He clipped the front of the hedge with a front foot, not to the extent that it looked bad, but PH just didn't put his legs down in time, pecked onto his knees and nose, William just slid down his neck and over his ears.  Both of them got up looking shocked to be on the floor and walked off home.  It was a very unexpected fall.

In general (not in WFP and ph's case) a lot of the falls (that we saw) looked like rider nerves causing errors. I'm away at the mo, but when I get back I will post a video of two horses at the Mirage pond, one goes through perfectly and it looks easy, the next struggled and was awful to watch..

I didn't think the ground can really be used as an excuse, there was no mud at all, ive seen much worse, and those conditions were what should really be expected for a spring event..  In my opinion it was a big scary 4*, that's all.  We really enjoyed it.


----------



## tiggs (12 May 2014)

TGM said:



			That's interesting.  I was wondering whether some of the horses that did not complete had some subclinical physical weaknesses that might only show when they are pushed to their limits by the course and the weather conditions.  Not only heart, but very mild respiratory conditions, the beginnings of a virus etc., which you would normally not notice.
		
Click to expand...

I wondered that about AN' s horses, Avebury wasn't up to his usual performance at Kentucky either


----------



## Twiglet (12 May 2014)

Honey08 said:



			p



I didn't think the ground can really be used as an excuse, there was no mud at all, ive seen much worse, and those conditions were what should really be expected for a spring event..  In my opinion it was a big scary 4*, that's all.  We really enjoyed it.
		
Click to expand...

There was mud. It wasn't a quagmire by any stretch but there was mud, and the ground was holding - whether that be normal for spring conditions or not. We watched a few from one of the flat stretches (between 9 and 10) and the ground was distinctly 'cut' even early on. I don't think the ground was as much of an issue as the wind, which was obscene in parts, but I've no doubt it would have affected performance in most cases.


----------



## oldvic (12 May 2014)

Maesfen said:



			Badminton used to be in late March/early April so it's now much later than it used to be; I still find it hard to get used to it being so late!
Yes, lack of fitness was the prime cause of the trouble but it was apparent at the seemingly lack of commitment from the 'big' riders at some of the fences almost as if they had stopped riding by intuition and glue; I mean, come on, when did you last see AN ride a fence so sloppily or the great MT suffer indecision on his first ride and he does seem to have a thing about The Lake to ride it so badly the next time?  I hope it's shook them all up out of their complacent technical courses, it was a real breath of fresh air.
		
Click to expand...

Mark's so called indecision? Andrew sloppy? Campino, like Quimbo, is not a natural galloper but a good and scopey jumper. They have been taught to gallop but with those types it is not easy to adjust them back out of the long stride. They tend to bare down onto your hand and become unbalanced. When you then have a bad distance to a big fence your options are limited and whatever you do is wrong. This was the case with both these horses. Leonidas was green going into the lake and needed encouragement. His back end flicked up when his stifles caught the log, hitting Mark up the backside and knocking him forward. He then shot forward and into the deep water even though Mark was quickly back in balance. Many would have been unseated. Nereo's mistake was caused by an outside influence. If your horse is the type to shy away when you are out of balance you have no chance to stay on whoever you are. The last thing either of these riders are is complacent.




Nag_Nag_Nag said:



			The problem I see is riders/horse ability for that particular level (this is far from me attacking peoples ability btw). We seem to be making the lower level courses easier (pressure from riders and BE to make them easier) as well as the qualification. Its a huge jump up from say Weston Advanced to Badminton, yet a lot of Badminton bound horses use Weston as a warm up. I realize they are different levels, but it is a HUGE jump up. Add to the fact there have been a number of events cancelled this year, so runs have been sparse.
		
Click to expand...

This is so true. Until the CICs are truly at the level instead of intermediate tracks for 2* and standard advanced for 3*, there is nowhere to give the experience.



LittleOwl said:



			I'm another who thinks fitness was the main issue. There isn't much of an excuse as some horses finished full of running - the time might have been a little tight but the time pens added to it all! The corners in huntsman's close may have been a little big for the end of the track but as others have said they should have saved petrol
Correct me if i'm wrong but considering who finished and who didnt, maybe our top riders are becoming complacent (or maybe its because it was so easy last year)??
		
Click to expand...

A few that went very slowly were less tired but nothing was full of running. It is not so easy in those conditions to go fast enough to be competitive but have enough left. An awkward jump or a gust of wind can take precious energy so you need to have things go your way as well. The top riders are certainly not complacent but they didn't get the "rub of the green".



armchair_rider said:



			I think the top riders probably have less invested in the competition - they aren't under such pressure to get round because they know that their sponsors won't ditch them and they have the resources to re-route the horse to Luhmuhlen or Chatsworth. WFP chose to withdraw one of his horses despite having the potential for a Grand Slam which suggests that he has a lot of freedom in what he does. .
		
Click to expand...

Really?!! The big competitions are what they work so hard for and gives them such a buzz. They mean as much to the top riders as anyone. It is quite possible that William withdrew because Cool Mountain has had soundness issues and will only have a limited number of top competitions left in him. To start in an uncompetitive place would be a waste of a run.



Maesfen said:



			Incidentally, has anyone seen/known what happened with PH at that hedge as the camera angle only really showed him tipping up, you couldn't see why?
		
Click to expand...

He looked to be slightly to the right and maybe not quite straight. He caught the high brush with his off fore and that tipped him up. The shock of falling could have made his heart fibrillate.



tiggs said:



			I wondered that about AN' s horses, Avebury wasn't up to his usual performance at Kentucky either
		
Click to expand...

There was absolutely nothing wrong with Andrew's horses. Quimbo was pulled up looking very happy having incurred 20 pens at the bank. He is not a fast horse so wouldn't be competitive with that having wasted valuable time. Nereo was making it look very easy and was on his minute markers in spite of Andrew trying to go steady as he knew he could be well over time. He left a leg coming out of the pond due to a fault with the pinning at the A element causing him to run through the water. Avebury, while not himself, was not sick.


----------



## dieseldog (12 May 2014)

ihatework said:



			It will be even more interesting to see if we get a divide between the 4*'s and the Championship courses (which have become dressage competitions) - will riders divide their horses up and aim some for the 4* and keep others as the championship models?
		
Click to expand...

They already do that - look at Miners Frolic - he was never a 4* horse but you would always want him on a championship team, before London 2012 the last time he completed a proper 4 star was 2009.  I cant see things like the Olympics changing as you have to make sure the newer nations get round and losing eventing as an Olympic sport is no good for anyone. I think what is interesting is the differer between show jumping and eventing - the Olympics really are the toughest for SJ and there has been no dumbing down as the newer nations have caught up with the big boys - but SJ is safer than eventing too.


----------



## jellybaby2 (12 May 2014)

I think it was the wind sapping the energy to be honest. I run a lot, and it's blooming hard work in a string wind and my times are noticeably slower. I don't think it was the ground as the wind would have been very drying, and it certainly wasn't the mud bath of 92...!
I loved every minute of it on Saturday and I think the course designer did a fab job.
I thoroughly enjoyed watching izzy Taylor on both her rides and also Harry meade, both complete naturals across country and in sure this has been helped by their background out hunting.
JB x


----------



## Teri (13 May 2014)

Adding to the previous comment about possible respiratory issues/issues...

I work with racehorses and we have to listen to their breathing as we canter especially when we are breezing. If they whistle, make any unnatural noise, they will go and have a tie back operation to help. No horse will run well if they can't breath.
More and more I have gone eventing and heard the early warning signs that they aren't breathing correctly as they canter past. I would Have loved to have been there Saturday and listened to them because I could imagine some of the horses which struggled were actually unable to breath, I wonder if the courses continue to stay more physically commanding, if eventers will be more inclined to look into tie back operations and such.
Does anyone know how common it is for an event horse to be scoped after a run also?
I definitely think eventers need to look more into what goes into the fitness and maintenance of a racehorse.


----------



## claracanter (13 May 2014)

Would love to see how Michael Jung would have coped wit the track


----------



## Darremi (13 May 2014)

Teri said:



			Adding to the previous comment about possible respiratory issues/issues...

I work with racehorses and we have to listen to their breathing as we canter especially when we are breezing. If they whistle, make any unnatural noise, they will go and have a tie back operation to help. No horse will run well if they can't breath.
More and more I have gone eventing and heard the early warning signs that they aren't breathing correctly as they canter past. I would Have loved to have been there Saturday and listened to them because I could imagine some of the horses which struggled were actually unable to breath, I wonder if the courses continue to stay more physically commanding, if eventers will be more inclined to look into tie back operations and such.
Does anyone know how common it is for an event horse to be scoped after a run also?
I definitely think eventers need to look more into what goes into the fitness and maintenance of a racehorse.
		
Click to expand...

They mentioned on the commentary that somebody's horse had had a breathing op over the winter. I think it was one of Clerk Montgomery's horses. And yet both his were pulled up for being exhausted .

Terri, what would be your typical NH horse's weekly fitness routine, if you do not mind me asking?

I am looking to take my horse to the 3 day at Blair Castle. The XC is massively hilly and I want to make sure my WB is fit as a fiddle .


----------



## Leaping (13 May 2014)

oldvic said:



			Nereo was making it look very easy and was on his minute markers in spite of Andrew trying to go steady as he knew he could be well over time. He left a leg coming out of the pond due to a fault with the pinning at the A element causing him to run through the water. Avebury, while not himself, was not sick.
		
Click to expand...

I agree with nearly all your post, but Nereo left a leg going into the pond - I don't think you can blame that all on the pinning, and whilst a big AN fan and know he is an incredible horseman, the impression I got watching it on telly was that he didn't really set the horse up for the exit as well as he could have done and Nereo left a leg (which you also wouldn't expect from that horse) and AN was caught unawares (which is another surprise) we have all seen him stay on far more dramatic displays.  

I wouldn't have said he was sloppy nor complacent but I don't think you can blame it all on the pinning of the entry (its not like it fell down on its own...) - he was just caught out like many others were.  In the same way that Tina Cook's horse should have locked on to that element at fence 5 and didn't (you would expect at that level for the horse to lock on)  - and whilst the fences weren't all brand new, the design and the ground and the weather meant that very few mistakes were forgiven


----------



## EventingMum (13 May 2014)

This is one of the most interesting threads for a long time. I didn't have the pleasure of being at Badminton but thoroughly enjoyed watching it on TV. 

I think the xc results were something few of us would have predicted but allowed some less well known riders to shine which is great, we all love seeing MT, WFP and AN demonstrate their obvious skills but they have all passed the mid point of their careers so younger riders with talent and determination are a great asset to ensure the future of our sport and the big name's misfortune may have actually been a positive in the long turn. Whatever else happens I think Burghley will be interesting  and very competitive this year.

My own musings over this year's Badminton's xc are as follows: the wind must have placed a additional stress on many horses resulting in them tiring more quickly and many riders recognised this and rode accordingly or retired however it did appear to take some riders by surprise resulting in some falls.

The points raised about many horses being educated in the hunting field in the past are undoubtedly valid. Also many potential eventers were "found"  in the hunting field displaying talent and boldness whereas now most are the result of a selective sports horse breeding programme and have a significantly higher price tag so some owners are unwilling to risk their investment out hunting.

The demise of long format CCIs seems to have almost coincided with the change to less bold, more technical xc courses, did this year's return of big, bold Badminton combined with the weather require the fitness of yesteryear's horses? I imagine by the time this year's course was unveiled horses were too far along their fitness programme to make significant changes but few will be caught out again next year.

In terms of preparation and fitness I do wonder if the incredibly wet start to the year also affected some riders, obviously it depends on location and some have access to all weather gallops but for some it must have made preparation more difficult. It amazes me how the top riders manage to produce a string of 3 and 4* horses to the required level, taking in to account the individual needs of each horse. The time and careful monitoring must be immense and huge credit must go to their organisation and their support team, in years gone by it was unusual if a top rider had more than two 4* horses.

As others have said it will be interesting to see if other major events follow suit and beef up their xc courses - I personally feel we may see some exciting times ahead in the eventing world!


----------



## Teri (13 May 2014)

Darremi said:



			They mentioned on the commentary that somebody's horse had had a breathing op over the winter. I think it was one of Clerk Montgomery's horses. And yet both his were pulled up for being exhausted .

Terri, what would be your typical NH horse's weekly fitness routine, if you do not mind me asking?

I am looking to take my horse to the 3 day at Blair Castle. The XC is massively hilly and I want to make sure my WB is fit as a fiddle .
		
Click to expand...

That's interesting that they mentioned it actually, I didn't get to watch it as I'm in America at the moment with limited internet!

Our horses canter 6 days a week, and we do interval training. They also go in the walker in the evenings. Trot one lap to warm up.
One lap of our track is just short of a mile of undulating ground so a weekly routine would be

Monday - 1 and 3/8ths
Tuesday - 2 and 1/2
Wednesday - 3
Thursday - 2 and school over hurdles/timber
Friday - 3
Saturday - 3 but on the last lap, we breeze them upsides or on their own, depending on how much our trainer wants them to do and that would last for about 5/8ths.

Any horses who do a longer distance, apart from Mondays and Tuesdays, will go for another half a mile.
Hope this helps in anyway, even if it's just for general interest.


----------



## Mince Pie (13 May 2014)

Maesfen said:



			or the great MT suffer indecision on his first ride and he does seem to have a thing about The Lake to ride it so badly the next time?
		
Click to expand...

To be fair to Toddy that horse wasn't listening to him at all in the lake, he had both hands on the right rein trying to get him to turn to the boat.

I really enjoyed Badminton this year and hope that they keep the new course designer. It's not often you see people like Toddy, WFP and AN actually working round a course, usually they all look so calm! It will be interesting to see how it rides next year now that people have had a slight rude awakening as to how much it has changed. Gutted for Nicola Wilson getting the points for that pin at the new lake, I'm not sure that was really deserved.


----------



## Jo_x (13 May 2014)

Broke_But_Happy said:



			Gutted for Nicola Wilson getting the points for that pin at the new lake, I'm not sure that was really deserved.
		
Click to expand...

She got the pin penalties at the Vicarage V, not the lake. If you look at the e-venting photos it looks like a fair decision.


----------



## Leaping (13 May 2014)

Broke_But_Happy said:



			Gutted for Nicola Wilson getting the points for that pin at the new lake, I'm not sure that was really deserved.
		
Click to expand...

penalties were for the pin broken at the Vicarage Vee, not the new pond (and if you look on e-venting you can see that the pin did look like it saved a horse fall) so think they were deserved


----------



## Darremi (13 May 2014)

Teri said:



			That's interesting that they mentioned it actually, I didn't get to watch it as I'm in America at the moment with limited internet!

Our horses canter 6 days a week, and we do interval training. They also go in the walker in the evenings. Trot one lap to warm up.
One lap of our track is just short of a mile of undulating ground so a weekly routine would be

Monday - 1 and 3/8ths
Tuesday - 2 and 1/2
Wednesday - 3
Thursday - 2 and school over hurdles/timber
Friday - 3
Saturday - 3 but on the last lap, we breeze them upsides or on their own, depending on how much our trainer wants them to do and that would last for about 5/8ths.

Any horses who do a longer distance, apart from Mondays and Tuesdays, will go for another half a mile.
Hope this helps in anyway, even if it's just for general interest.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks Teri, that is very interesting and useful 

I think that many eventers only canter their horse once or twice per week. On the other days are a mixture of dressage, sj and hacking. Overall this is significantly less that what you are doing. At present I canter twice per week. 

But I now realise that if I am to do a 3 day event I should really be doing it more often. I will shorten my schooling sessions and do canterwork at the end.

Thank you so much for very useful info!!


----------



## Gamebird (13 May 2014)

Darremi said:



			Thanks Teri, that is very interesting and useful 

I think that many eventers only canter their horse once or twice per week. On the other days are a mixture of dressage, sj and hacking. Overall this is significantly less that what you are doing. At present I canter twice per week. 

But I now realise that if I am to do a 3 day event I should really be doing it more often. I will shorten my schooling sessions and do canterwork at the end.

Thank you so much for very useful info!!
		
Click to expand...

I'm honestly not convinced by this. They are two very different jobs and types of horses. There's a reason very few people canter more than every three days (most canter every 4 days). I fully agree with incorporating more canter nto schooling - I timed a schooling session the other day and found that I did about 10 mins in walk (5mins at the start and the finish) 10mins in trot and 20mins in canter, including stuff that was quite hard work llike 15m counter-canter circles and lots of canter half-pass. However on watching other people most do the majority of their schooling in trot.

I think you're aiming at Blair? I should probably also mention (sorry to those who have heard it before) that I once got a horse far too fit for Blair - so fit I couldn't ride one side of it on the XC. That was a very chunky half-bred horse and the ground was so hard that year I did all his cantering doing intervals every four days in an arena. I can't imagine a chunkier horse than mine competing at that level so I can't see the advantage of cantering more than every 3/4 days.

I'd probably canter smarter rather than canter more often: use hills, do a lot of very steady long canter sets interspersed with the occasional run up through the gears. 

Each to his own (I've spent a couple of seasons riding NH horses so am au fait with cantering them every day too), but I'm not sure the answer is to start thinking about cantering 3+ times a week.


----------



## LEC (13 May 2014)

That training is for racehorses. Not eventers. Eventers also need to be able to have the correct musculature to jump 30 fences xc, Sj cleanly on the last day  and do dressage to advanced medium standard. A racehorse only needs the musculature to brush through steeplechase fences and gallop. A very different proposition and challenge.

Its like comparing Jessica Ennis training to that of Mo Farah!! Yes Jessica needs to be fit, but fit for purpose not fit for marathon.


----------



## Darremi (13 May 2014)

LEC said:



			That training is for racehorses. Not eventers. Eventers also need to be able to have the correct musculature to jump 30 fences xc, Sj cleanly on the last day  and do dressage to advanced medium standard. A racehorse only needs the musculature to brush through steeplechase fences and gallop. A very different proposition and challenge.

Its like comparing Jessica Ennis training to that of Mo Farah!! Yes Jessica needs to be fit, but fit for purpose not fit for marathon.
		
Click to expand...

I was not proposing to start doing fast work every day, but I was simply exploring the ideas that I had gleaned from Teri's very useful information.

I live in Scotland and I have been to Blair before on a near full TB 6yo and she coped with it easily with very little work. However my current horse is nearly full WB and takes a lot of work to get fit. I very much doubt he could ever be "too" fit for Blair CCI2*.

What I was proposing was to continue with my normal routine. Ie. 2-3 schooling sessions per week, but incorporate a couple of canters up our hill at the end, not a full blown interval session like I do 2x per week. To be honest my horse tends to canter every second day anyway whilst out on a hack.

I also do 50-60 minute schooling sessions all in trot and canter. He is as fit as I have ever had him, bearing in mind he has few miles on the clock atm.

Anyway we are getting away from the original point that many have made, that horses are tiring so easily at 4 star in recent years. My suggestion was that as riders we need to look towards racing to explore fitness options.

And personally I think the Mo Farah and Jessica Ennis analogy is unhelpful. Going round a NH course and going round a four star are not as different as people think.


----------



## Gamebird (13 May 2014)

Darremi said:



			And personally I think the Mo Farah and Jessica Ennis analogy is unhelpful. Going round a NH course and going round a four star are not as different as people think.
		
Click to expand...

I agree in part with looking at NH training - part of the reason I worked in a NH/PTP yard was to enable me to learn more about fittening work. They're not worlds apart, but there are still pretty major differences. I know when I entered my (ex) eventer for a 4 mile XC race I did very different fitness work compared to what I did with him for eventing.

Plus there is a long history of racing (and specifically NH) influence in eventing. I suspect a lot of the more transferrable training techniques have already been applied to fittening eventers.

Perhaps we'd be able to take more from looking at how they fittened long format horses in eg. the 80s? A lot of those skills seem to have been lost.


----------



## khalswitz (13 May 2014)

Darremi said:



			I was not proposing to start doing fast work every day, but I was simply exploring the ideas that I had gleaned from Teri's very useful information.

I live in Scotland and I have been to Blair before on a near full TB 6yo and she coped with it easily with very little work. However my current horse is nearly full WB and takes a lot of work to get fit. I very much doubt he could ever be "too" fit for Blair CCI2*.

What I was proposing was to continue with my normal routine. Ie. 2-3 schooling sessions per week, but incorporate a couple of canters up our hill at the end, not a full blown interval session like I do 2x per week. To be honest my horse tends to canter every second day anyway whilst out on a hack.

I also do 50-60 minute schooling sessions all in trot and canter. He is as fit as I have ever had him, bearing in mind he has few miles on the clock atm.

Anyway we are getting away from the original point that many have made, that horses are tiring so easily at 4 star in recent years. My suggestion was that as riders we need to look towards racing to explore fitness options.

And personally I think the Mo Farah and Jessica Ennis analogy is unhelpful. Going round a NH course and going round a four star are not as different as people think.
		
Click to expand...

Just in case this helps as well, me and a friend walked the 3* course at with Beanie Sturgis and Bettina Hoy last year at Blair. Beanie was riding a TB, and Bettina a big WB. Bettina said the WBs are notably slower at Blair XC due to the hills (the long uphill takes up 1/3 of the course and therefore really impacts where you want to be at your minute markers), and she had to REALLY make up time on the flat and the downhill, so she had really upped her fittening regime in order to take that horse round Blair. In addition, now Ian Stark is taking over the course building it is going to be meaty!!!


----------



## Garnet (13 May 2014)

Compared with the &#8220;good old days&#8221;, the low number of completions this year is partially due to the rules that eliminate anyone who has a fall of horse and/or rider and anyone who accumulates three (or is it five?) refusals.  There were also several technical eliminations for jumping the wrong side of a flag, at least two of which were at the second corner at Huntsman&#8217;s Close.  Why did the red flag for the second corner need to be close to the white flag?  Of course no-one wants to see riders aiming their horses at an impossibly wide part of the fence, but if the red flag had been positioned a little further to the right, then both Gemma Tattersall and Ludvig Svennerstal would have been recorded as completions rather than eliminations.
Perhaps the blustery wind and the hill up to the New Pond made the course extra testing this year, but in the &#8220;good old days&#8221; the Badminton cross country had an optimum time up to 14 minutes with the loop over the Luckington Lane to the Centre Walk Aintree fences and Tom Smith&#8217;s Walls.
Also in the &#8220;good old days&#8221; there were only two 4* events per year, Badminton and Burghley, and no CICs, so with the long format (meaning that the horses had already completed a significant part of the Speed and Endurance test before starting on the cross country phase), fewer riders would retire after one refusal early on the course and re-route to Lumuhlen or Chatsworth instead.  A completion at Badminton in those days was comparatively more prestigious, even with a couple of refusals or an unseated rider and remount, as there were fewer opportunities to complete a 4* event.
So my sweeping generalisations of the day are:
1	It was good to see a competition where the cross-country exerted such a strong influence on the results.
2	Riders will probably get their horses fitter for future Badmintons.  With the benefit of hindsight, Badminton 2013 probably lulled some people into a false sense of security about the difficulty of the cross country.
3	The number of completions will be lower these days.  Elimination of all fallers and cumulative refusals increases the number of eliminations compared with retirements.  Some riders will retire after an early refusal and re-route to one of the many other prestigious events now available.

Bring on the new era!


----------



## Gamebird (13 May 2014)

Garnet said:



			Of course no-one wants to see riders aiming their horses at an impossibly wide part of the fence, but if the red flag had been positioned a little further to the right, then both Gemma Tattersall and Ludvig Svennerstal would have been recorded as completions rather than eliminations.
		
Click to expand...

I think siting the red flag any further to the right would be a mistake primarily because their horses had to scramble across that part of the corner as it was far too wide. What I do think might have helped would have been a red flag on the front as well as the back. 

With regard to that corner those coming from the long route tooke two different lines to it. Those that came inside the trees and got back onto the short route line got a straight shot at it and didn't end up on a wide bit over towards the red flag. Those that stayed wide (out to the left of the trees) then swung back in tended to jump across the corner (ie. towards the red flag) and end up straddling it.

I agree with the heartbreak of believing you've jumped a clear (although I suspect both would have had their worries whether they'd been on the right side of the flag) to be told after the finish that you've actually been eliminated.


----------



## Garnet (13 May 2014)

Gamebird said:



			What I do think might have helped would have been a red flag on the front as well as the back. 

With regard to that corner those coming from the long route tooke two different lines to it. Those that came inside the trees and got back onto the short route line got a straight shot at it and didn't end up on a wide bit over towards the red flag. Those that stayed wide (out to the left of the trees) then swung back in tended to jump across the corner (ie. towards the red flag) and end up straddling it.
		
Click to expand...

Agree!


----------



## Teri (13 May 2014)

Also as another point to add, I worked for a young rider last year whilst I took a break from racing, and I could count the number of times she had a good canter on one hand!
I agree, you can't canter an event horse as much as a racehorse, you have other things you need to concentrate on but by the sounds of it, the horses were getting way too tired for the level they were at!
Totally agree with Garnet also, very well made points.


----------



## cundlegreen (13 May 2014)

Re the canter work, its about the quality not the quantity. You need your horse to be taking a real grip on the bit, then its working correctly, especially if you canter uphill (sadly lacking here in Suffolk!). I'm another one who has worked a lot with racehorses. In my day when I worked for the top P-T-P yard in the UK, the horses were given weeks trotting on tracks before graduating to cantering on the dreaded "hilly field", scene of many a person being bucked off! By the time we got to the gallops, weeks had gone by, and the horses were galloped almost everyday over 4 miles, and usually clocking around 35 to 40 mph!. They were as fit as fleas, and could, and did, come out and win every week. Nowadays, nobody would dream of following that regime, but I don't remember any having a leg problem over the four seasons that I was there.
I think its important to have a horse fit enough not only for the event but to avoid injury.


----------



## oldvic (13 May 2014)

Leaping said:



			I agree with nearly all your post, but Nereo left a leg going into the pond - I don't think you can blame that all on the pinning, and whilst a big AN fan and know he is an incredible horseman, the impression I got watching it on telly was that he didn't really set the horse up for the exit as well as he could have done and Nereo left a leg (which you also wouldn't expect from that horse)
		
Click to expand...

A good cross country horse will use his hind legs dropping on to a downhill fence/fence into water to act as a brake. Nereo does this going into the pond. He is as neat as he normally is in front and certainly didn't leave a leg there. His braking system failed as the rail gave way when it shouldn't have. This meant he was running forward through the water and unable to react correctly to the half halts. Andrew admits he was caught by surprise as in his 9 year career the horse has never left a leg but he didn't feel he was getting close enough to the fence to need a defensive position and uphill that can be energy sapping for the horse. 

With regard to the fitness, many of the top riders rode in the days of long format and say that the horses need to be as fit now as they were then. It might be that a less blood horse needs more fast work especially the first time they get truly fit but once you have reached that fitness, it is easier to get back there. As others have said, there is a difference in the jobs that a racehorse and an event horse do. For one, the racehorse goes at a more constant speed which requires different muscles and is less tiring. The turns and little ups and downs also take it out of a horse and need a different balance. One thing I think is relevant is that racehorses are got properly fit for the first time at a much younger age. Also, it doesn't matter that the event horse does the flat work, jumping, etc. but that is part of the fitness regime so it must be work.


----------



## AdorableAlice (13 May 2014)

This is probably going to be a ridiculous comment but I will give it a go.

I am beginning to wonder if course builders (both sj and event) have reached the limit in what they can design for the modern horse we have today.  We have watched horses tackle very technical fences/distances etc.  Saturday we watched them jump huge solid fences.  The top showjumpers are capable of jumping massive fences.

Breeding has produced the ultimate athlete, modern medicine has kept him healthy, vast experience from the worlds best riders and trainers have produced the horse at his very best, and here is my question, has the modern competition horse reached the limit of what is physically possible for the equine structure to achieve ?

I enjoyed Badminton, I enjoy watching the Nations Cup and the top dressage horses but in all three disciplines I do wonder if the horse is teetering on the edge of being asked the impossible at times.


----------



## Polar Bear9 (13 May 2014)

AdorableAlice said:



			This is probably going to be a ridiculous comment but I will give it a go.

I am beginning to wonder if course builders (both sj and event) have reached the limit in what they can design for the modern horse we have today.  We have watched horses tackle very technical fences/distances etc.  Saturday we watched them jump huge solid fences.  The top showjumpers are capable of jumping massive fences.

Breeding has produced the ultimate athlete, modern medicine has kept him healthy, vast experience from the worlds best riders and trainers have produced the horse at his very best, and here is my question, has the modern competition horse reached the limit of what is physically possible for the equine structure to achieve ?

I enjoyed Badminton, I enjoy watching the Nations Cup and the top dressage horses but in all three disciplines I do wonder if the horse is teetering on the edge of being asked the impossible at times.
		
Click to expand...

I've thought about this as well AA. I think we might reach a point where they are all so good, so at the top of what is capable, that its nearly impossible to separate between them. Its the same with human athletes. There will reach a point where a sprinter will run a 100 metre time that no one will beat. As hard as w push ourselves, as good as medicine and training is, at no point will a human run a 100 meters in 1 second for example.  I also think we don't want that, that its better to see people struggling over a top level course and having to really work for victory than having every horse go perfectly on a good dressage score and clear XC and SJ. At the end of the day these courses are the height of the sport and I think they should be challenging.

To answer the initial question, I thought this year was fantastic, I loved watching it and it was great to see dressage playing less of a role for once. Both Dressage and SJ are stand alone sports at top level whereas XC is not so I do think it should be a proper test. Also good to see the frangible pins in action and saving lives.


----------



## dieseldog (13 May 2014)

AdorableAlice said:



			This is probably going to be a ridiculous comment but I will give it a go.

I am beginning to wonder if course builders (both sj and event) have reached the limit in what they can design for the modern horse we have today.  We have watched horses tackle very technical fences/distances etc.  Saturday we watched them jump huge solid fences.  The top showjumpers are capable of jumping massive fences.

Breeding has produced the ultimate athlete, modern medicine has kept him healthy, vast experience from the worlds best riders and trainers have produced the horse at his very best, and here is my question, has the modern competition horse reached the limit of what is physically possible for the equine structure to achieve ?

I enjoyed Badminton, I enjoy watching the Nations Cup and the top dressage horses but in all three disciplines I do wonder if the horse is teetering on the edge of being asked the impossible at times.
		
Click to expand...

The horse might be close to the perfect well bred horse - but they still have to cope with the mongrels on their backs ;p

I don't think any country has started breeding riders yet, although there is evidence it might be a good idea if you look at some of the riding dynasties, think there are probably countries out there trying for the perfect track athlete though.


----------



## popsdosh (13 May 2014)

AdorableAlice said:



			This is probably going to be a ridiculous comment but I will give it a go.

I am beginning to wonder if course builders (both sj and event) have reached the limit in what they can design for the modern horse we have today.  We have watched horses tackle very technical fences/distances etc.  Saturday we watched them jump huge solid fences.  The top showjumpers are capable of jumping massive fences.

Breeding has produced the ultimate athlete, modern medicine has kept him healthy, vast experience from the worlds best riders and trainers have produced the horse at his very best, and here is my question, has the modern competition horse reached the limit of what is physically possible for the equine structure to achieve ?

I enjoyed Badminton, I enjoy watching the Nations Cup and the top dressage horses but in all three disciplines I do wonder if the horse is teetering on the edge of being asked the impossible at times.
		
Click to expand...

The horses have always been capable of these huge fences the riders just werent ready for it on Saturday as it had become progressively easier the last few years. If you think the fences are bigger now you are mistaken ask the riders who rode when HW was course designer or look at some footage of SJ back in the 50s and 60s from white city etc.Look at eventing at the Helsinki olympics you would be horrified by it the only limit in those days was the human imagination


----------



## AdorableAlice (13 May 2014)

popsdosh said:



			The horses have always been capable of these huge fences the riders just werent ready for it on Saturday as it had become progressively easier the last few years. If you think the fences are bigger now you are mistaken ask the riders who rode when HW was course designer or look at some footage of SJ back in the 50s and 60s from white city etc.Look at eventing at the Helsinki olympics you would be horrified by it the only limit in those days was the human imagination
		
Click to expand...

I was not saying the fences were too big, I am well aware horses have the power to jump big fences.  I have a horse at home with Alme and I Love you in him and there is not a fence on the farm that he considers to be more than a trotting pole.

What I am trying, badly I think, to say is there must be a limit to a horses physical ability.  They are animals not highly engineered machines that can be redesigned to produce evermore speed or power.

Huntsmans Close was unedifying to watch at times and to the uneducated eye the whole afternoon turned into an equine 'it's a knockout' and I am not sure that is how the sport should be portrayed to the general public.


----------



## popsdosh (13 May 2014)

AdorableAlice said:



			I was not saying the fences were too big, I am well aware horses have the power to jump big fences.  I have a horse at home with Alme and I Love you in him and there is not a fence on the farm that he considers to be more than a trotting pole.

What I am trying, badly I think, to say is there must be a limit to a horses physical ability.  They are animals not highly engineered machines that can be redesigned to produce evermore speed or power.

Huntsmans Close was unedifying to watch at times and to the uneducated eye the whole afternoon turned into an equine 'it's a knockout' and I am not sure that is how the sport should be portrayed to the general public.
		
Click to expand...

What I am trying to say is they have been asked harder questions in the past perhaps it was less PC in those days.There were  no limits back then and they all had to carry a minimum weight. 
I think most people are happy that it was tougher this year at least the CC was influential rather than being just something to entertain the crowd on the Saturday of a dressage weekend.


----------

