# Let's be blunt .....



## bonny (5 April 2013)

Was going to reply on the national fatality thread but it's getting so bogged down with statistics that I thought I'd start another....
It is unimportant what the figures are, they are low, deaths happen, it's sad but it's part of owning horses no matter what they do.
We breed horses, thousands of them every year for our own use.
They all die, at our hands, anyone ever seen a horse die of old age ?
There are alot of hypocrites on here, wringing their hands over every racing death and then suggesting pts for other people's leisure horses....
What matters is how horses are treated during their lives and racehorses have the best of everything. 
The Grand National is according to Tony Mccoy watched by 600 million people worldwide, it has a long history and we should be proud of it not constantly looking for ways to attack it.
It's been made as safe as possible, why not just watch it and enjoy it for what it is .....
Guess I'll be hammered for writing this .....


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## teapot (5 April 2013)

Well you won't be hammered by me! Good post


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## MillbrookSong (5 April 2013)

Me neither - well said!


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## Dobiegirl (5 April 2013)

Bonny you wont get hammered by me, its not my favourite race I much prefer the Cheltenham Gold Cup where the best horse nearly always wins. To me the GN is a spectacle but very much a lottery, it was tailor made for the likes of Red Rum who would never have been remembered but for the GN. But  it is very much part of the NH calender and I for one would not like it to end. Like you I hate the hand wringing that accompanies any racing thread and its from people who know little to nothing about the sport or how racehorses are trained.


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## pines of rome (5 April 2013)

When I was younger I used to work in a national hunt yard so I know how the horses are cared for!
 They do get the best of everything, but they are still kept in stables for most of the time unless they are being worked or racing and this is not a happy life for a horse!
I have witnessed them weaving,cribbing, boxwalking etc, we had one that had to be tied up all the time as her boxwalking was so bad she would work her self into a lather! So all this talk of them living like Kings is rubbish as far as the horses quality of life goes!


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## teapot (5 April 2013)

Tbf PoR that could be said for some riding stables...


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## dressedkez (5 April 2013)

Dobiegirl said:



			Bonny you wont get hammered by me, its not my favourite race I much prefer the Cheltenham Gold Cup where the best horse nearly always wins. To me the GN is a spectacle but very much a lottery, it was tailor made for the likes of Red Rum who would never have been remembered but for the GN. But  it is very much part of the NH calender and I for one would not like it to end. Like you I hate the hand wringing that accompanies any racing thread and its from people who know little to nothing about the sport or how racehorses are trained.
		
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Cerainly will not be hammered by me either - but the 'safety factors' that are bing put in place for the GN - make it harder, less of a lottery, and certainly not the GN we have enjoyed of years past. I watched a bit on the local SW news tonight, where local trainers Pipe, Hobbs, Nicholls and other less known yards would have had multiple runners (or at least one or two) can't have very many this year because of the exacting conditions to get into the race - there was a time when I could have entered my pointer (who I know could have got 4 miles) but now that is a mega pipe dream - not going to happen - but he would have been possibly tough enough to have got around mostly unscathed, because he would have been well and truly trained for the job......having siad that pleased as punch to see a 100-1 horse winning the Foxhunters yesterday - as it should be!


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## justabob (5 April 2013)

Wont be hammered by me either. Simply can not compare Cheltenham Gold Cup to the GN. The Gold Cup is a precision race. The GN is a lottery...........very good post.


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## amage (5 April 2013)

pines of rome said:



			When I was younger I used to work in a national hunt yard so I know how the horses are cared for!
 They do get the best of everything, but they are still kept in stables for most of the time unless they are being worked or racing and this is not a happy life for a horse!
I have witnessed them weaving,cribbing, boxwalking etc, we had one that had to be tied up all the time as her boxwalking was so bad she would work her self into a lather! So all this talk of them living like Kings is rubbish as far as the horses quality of life goes!
		
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You worked in ONE yard....there are thousands. Don't judge by that yard's poor standards. Same could be said about sj/event/dressage/dealers/riding schools/polo/endurance etc bad management is not a racing thing


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## Elf On A Shelf (5 April 2013)

Out of 120+ horses we have 2 box walkers, 8cribbers, 3 that weave only at feed times and one wind sucker. What I have an abundance of is pics of horses bucking, kicking, rolling, digging in the bloomin puddle ...!!!! and generally having a good time! We like relaxed donkeys. Not every yard is the same.


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## dressedkez (5 April 2013)

amage said:



			You worked in ONE yard....there are thousands. Don't judge by that yard's poor standards. Same could be said about sj/event/dressage/dealers/riding schools/polo/endurance etc bad management is not a racing thing
		
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Well said. I Have a son who worked for several during his racing career-  and that included TOP yards (or well publicised yards) and mostly the horses were treated as  individuals and were turned out on a daily basis - had individual routines etc. Horses only genuinely win if they are happy, and I know that from training my own - they enjoy variety, hunting. being turned out, and doing stuff that is not always at the same time of day, with the same rider......having said that, there is the odd horse or two that likes a very regimented existance - and also thrives on 23 hours in the same box, training is all about horses for courses - and I do not think that you can knock Nicki Henderson (Sprinter Sacre), D Pipe (Dynaste) or Rebecca Curtis (AtFishersCross) for their individual styles at getting their horses at peak performance today. 
PS  - when I changed my horses routine one day - it had colic, and necessiated a visit from the vet........


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## silu (6 April 2013)

Not going to get slatted by me either. I wonder on which planet some posters live. The local riding stables have ponies and horses cross tied in pens with no window to look out of. They can JUST about lie down but that's it. They NEVER go out so their life is either going round and round in an indoor school or their pens. This is a BHS approved school.The hypocricy infuriates me.
From what I've read on some of the posts re the GN it's almost as tho there will be some people disappointed if GN is fatality free!


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## Crugeran Celt (6 April 2013)

I agree with you too. Just wanted to say that I had a 35 year old arab that just laid down and died in the field but had been relatively healthy until that point, vet said she had just died of old age, so it can happen. Wish people would make more fuss of all these ill bred animals being produced year after year and not being looked after properly instead of shouting over a TB that has been nurtured since conception and had the best of everything and may be unfortunate to lose its life doing the thing it loves.


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## Caledonia (6 April 2013)

Good post, OP!


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## Honeylight (6 April 2013)

Well said!
However the people who complain year in year out about the Grand National are those who on the whole have little experience of animals. I had a student active in Animal Aid & he was totally clueless about horses, of course the members could tell him any rubbish & he believed them.
I wish the RSPCA would put as much energy into stopping live transportations, traveller tethering & over-breeding of poor stock. However the former are just not glamorous enough, they don't get on the TV in their silly peaked caps & uniforms. The Grand National is a nice soft target & maybe a "jolly" for some of them to have a day out.
Sad though it is, a horse losing it's life in racing, will have had a good one, with expert care & a swift painless death. Not starving with no water on waste-land or travelling afraid & in pain to some unregulated slaughter house on the continent.
Think on people.


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## Maesfen (6 April 2013)

Totally agree OP and Honeylight too.

Long live the Grand National.


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## ridefast (6 April 2013)

Well said! I worked on ONE racing yard too, the horses all got daily turnout, went on the walker twice a day, were exercised twice a day, would hack out, school, jump, gallop. Their diets were all tailor made specific to the individual and broken down into several meals so they were trickle feeding constantly either on hard feed or hay. They were fit, healthy, relaxed and happy.
I've also been to a yard to view a pony for sale, the horses were kept in metal "stables" with no sunlight, concrete floor and ****** hay, they were all youngsters and never had any turnout. The owner told us how people kept calling the RSPCA but they didn't think she was doing anything wrong !!!
I also sent my little pony to a riding school for 4 years on loan. He went off a fit happy little pony who was hacking every day and regularly going out and about doing little show jumping etc, came back grumpy withdrawn and biting everyone. A year later he's just about back to his happy self. 
Point is, everything needs to be kept in perspective. No I don't like seeing horses die BUT the horses that die in racing are doing exactly what they've been bred to do, trained to do, and the death is as quick as it can possibly be. I also know several people keeping their horses alive in pain and suffering because they can't give up on them.


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## Miss L Toe (6 April 2013)

ridefast said:



			Point is, everything needs to be kept in perspective. No I don't like seeing horses die BUT the horses that die in racing are doing exactly what they've been bred to do, trained to do, and the death is as quick as it can possibly be. I also know several people keeping their horses alive in pain and suffering because they can't give up on them.
		
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Agreed, I have worked in several NH yards, the horses get three months off every year, turned out in well fenced and watered fields or paddocks. Yes there are exceptions, one horse [Spearmint Again] came back from owners facility with no condition plus lice.
Nearly all yards I worked in had them out twice a day, and fed three concentrate meals with chaff,  plus hay twice a day.
I won't be watching the national, as I think there are ten too many horses in the race, and it is more about politics than racing.


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## Parachute (6 April 2013)

Well put OP, completely agree.


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## ClobellsandBaubles (6 April 2013)

I was having this convo with OH in the car just now. I find it odd that most of the people I know who rant about the GN also think that keeping horses outside in field where they could get cold or wet is cruel and god forbid they don't have coats on! Most non-animally people I know are astounded when I say that not every horse has to live in a stable all it's life they just don't understand it.


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## JackAT (6 April 2013)

pines of rome said:



			When I was younger I used to work in a national hunt yard so I know how the horses are cared for!
 They do get the best of everything, but they are still kept in stables for most of the time unless they are being worked or racing and this is not a happy life for a horse!
I have witnessed them weaving,cribbing, boxwalking etc, we had one that had to be tied up all the time as her boxwalking was so bad she would work her self into a lather! So all this talk of them living like Kings is rubbish as far as the horses quality of life goes!
		
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Take teaforthree (who won me a nice little E/W stake  ), on the documentary last night. Rolling in the mud, carting around the arena being turned out. IMO, that's the way race yards should be run, and it's just been proven as a tried and tested formula. 

I also agree with the OP


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## pines of rome (6 April 2013)

I agree, if more were like that, the horses would be so less stressed out!


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## lindsayanne (6 April 2013)

Well said Bonny, at last someone talking sense!! I have been watching the GN since "Rummy" won his first in 1973. I remember watching it with my late father hoping one day I would have my own Rummy, well I have now and have had him for 15 glorious years.  I work in a livery yard of 20 plus horses, some owners think that racing in general is cruel and also use of the whip, the same owners who tie their horse up for hours on end to go and chat and then crack it with a whip when it starts to scrape the floor!! There are worse things happening to horses all over the world and in our own country, remember Amersham?
At the end of the day it is a very sad by-product of what can be a very exciting sport. We all love our own horses and should support any sport that uses these beautiful creatures and treat them with the love and respect that they deserve whilst we have them.  Perhaps more people should visit the Open Day at Lambourn next year and just see how these horses are looked after, the best feeds, warm rugs, plenty of exercise and lots of TLC and a great day out. Also try supporting those who take part in this great sport by supporting charities such as Greatwood and The Injured Jockeys Fund.


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## Echo Bravo (6 April 2013)

Well I keep telling my lot how lucky they are, they disagree as ususal, out during the day and in at night to the minute mind you not me them, have been now the nights are getting brighter, but no they are sticking to the old time, so just waiting for the grass to grow. If my lot saw how spoilt racehorses were they would demand the same treatment. (can't afford swimming or saunas) and unfortunately I'm the only groom and no they can't have 1 between 2 of them, they will have to wait till the hubby retires and then they will not have much joy of a 1 to 1. So yes the modern racehorse basically has it all, which my horses would love to aspire too and I should imagin most other horses as would as well.


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## dressedkez (6 April 2013)

Echo Bravo said:



			Well I keep telling my lot how lucky they are, they disagree as ususal, out during the day and in at night to the minute mind you not me them, have been now the nights are getting brighter, but no they are sticking to the old time, so just waiting for the grass to grow. If my lot saw how spoilt racehorses were they would demand the same treatment. (can't afford swimming or saunas) and unfortunately I'm the only groom and no they can't have 1 between 2 of them, they will have to wait till the hubby retires and then they will not have much joy of a 1 to 1. So yes the modern racehorse basically has it all, which my horses would love to aspire too and I should imagin most other horses as would as well.

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Lovely sunny day today, and out riding one could nor believe how many hairy cobs were turned out in fields still strait jacketed into their nose to tail NZ rugs.......We chucked out our TB's with their only just beginning to grow our hunter clips, but they loved it - just like Liverpool lasses on a sunbed!

Good GN - no equine fatalaties - and a cracking winner......wow the sun was shining just about everywhere today!


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## Tiffany (6 April 2013)

I choose not to watch it or bet on it simply because I'm not a racing fan.


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## Echo Bravo (6 April 2013)

Mine have no rugs on this winter what so ever for the first time and 2 have lost weight the 2 youngsters have gained weight, so have learnt a lesson, my older ones need a lightweight rug on turnout and stable the young ones maybe turnout in bad weather, but mine aren't clipped or worked and the fact I'm feeding them well.


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## dressedkez (6 April 2013)

Echo Bravo said:



			Mine have no rugs on this winter what so ever for the first time and 2 have lost weight the 2 youngsters have gained weight, so have learnt a lesson, my older ones need a lightweight rug on turnout and stable the young ones maybe turnout in bad weather, but mine aren't clipped or worked and the fact I'm feeding them well.

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Mine have been rugged up all winter - and have come in tonight to have rugs popped back on - the point I was making, is that it was a lovely sunny day, so a day to strip off the rugs for a few hours! And it was a shame that others were not doing similar. It has been a hellish winter for horses, and the last sunny day (about a month ago) when I turned them out without rugs, I was embarrased as they looked terrible (despite very good hay and feed) but a few dry weeks has bucked them up tremendously, and today, I was happy to feel that the RSPCA was not going to pay a call! 
Whilst out riding today - we must have passed about 50 horses turned out in fields (some in rugs / some not) but how many did we see being ridden out - just one! I find it quite amazing that all these horses / ponies are being kept, but not ridden - is it just my  bit of Devon - or do people see this in their own areas too??


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## Echo Bravo (6 April 2013)

Mine haven't been worked as only have 2 that at the moment are rideable as the other 2 haven't been backed, and as the weather has been so bad I'm sure not many other owners that don't have an in/outdoor areana so can understand why they rug their horses, maybe they aren't stabled and with this bitterly east wind, would make any horse drop weight, and yes it's been nice today with a bit of sun, but the temperature drops at night and even some hairy horses when you feel under their coats are very thin.


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## Scarlett (7 April 2013)

pines of rome said:



			When I was younger I used to work in a national hunt yard so I know how the horses are cared for!
 They do get the best of everything, but they are still kept in stables for most of the time unless they are being worked or racing and this is not a happy life for a horse!
I have witnessed them weaving,cribbing, boxwalking etc, we had one that had to be tied up all the time as her boxwalking was so bad she would work her self into a lather! So all this talk of them living like Kings is rubbish as far as the horses quality of life goes!
		
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A sweeping generalisation - I know a chaser who was raced, and won, from the field. Her trainer in Lambourn had t/o and says it's an important part of his horses routine, she was happiest in the field so that's where she lived! She's retired from racing now, still lives on the yard, hacks out and takes the young jocks up the gallops in between rolling in the mud and keeping the younger horses in line in the field.

There are many livery yards and competition yards where horses don't get out, and what about the dressage/sj yards who consider their horses to precious to turn out?

Please don't tar every racing yard with the same brush as your own bad experience.


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## Centauress (7 April 2013)

Agreed 

What Got Me in the Other Post is That Someone Said that Horses Are Made to Race or Something Along those Lines.... 

OK Then If They are MADE to Race why is it that the Loose Horses Jumped Along With the Ones With Riders if They Didn't WHAT to Do it they Wouldn't Would They????
I'm *Sorry* Don't Seen to Be Able to what I'm thinking into Words today....


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## Nicnac (7 April 2013)

Exactly OP.  Let's celebrate those 40 beautiful horses who gave their all yesterday and loved doing it.

Whether the course is easier, the jumps lower blah blah is irrelevant - we are not going to change that.

Just a few 'tweets' that sum it all up:

Terrible news for the Daily Mail as all Horses return Home safe. Their Photographers now desperately 'snapping' more drunken racegoers

The rainbow hunter is fine after finishing  2 Nd in the grand national. Shame he lost his jockey at the canal turn! (Kim Bailey)

So more horses died in the filming of the hobbit than in the last 2 years of the national. (Tom Palin)


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## fburton (7 April 2013)

As a matter of interest, does anyone know or can hazard a guess as to why the two loose horses suddenly stopped following the others and veered off? All I saw was one going to jump the barrier before going out of camera shot - thought "oh ****!" knowing what the barriers _used_ to be like and then relaxed a bit when I remembered they were made of plastic now and more easily collapsible. Presume they were both okay.


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## Elf On A Shelf (7 April 2013)

Thats where you get back to the stables - they aren't daft these horses! They know where dinner is! It always surprises me how many dart out towards the stable bend when riderless and not follow the rest of the field.


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## fburton (7 April 2013)

Aha! That would make sense, wouldn't it?


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## Elf On A Shelf (7 April 2013)

Saying that one of my exracers would find the nearest bunch of photographers to stop and pose for before heading for a canter along the edge as close to the public as possible - they are only there to see him of course and he quite simply must show hinself off for them to admire, worship and shower him with compliments! He is a right model lol!


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## 1stclassalan (7 April 2013)

bonny said:



			.....anyone ever seen a horse die of old age ?
		
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Yes, unfortunately....... I was cuddling her at the time.

My mare was certainly 33 and could have been more so despite her still in recovery from her second bout of E. Flu - I'd say it was old age that did for her - we've all got to go sometime and if needs must - it was very quick and avoided me having that terrible decision sometime later.


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## Centauress (7 April 2013)

What about the Loose Horse That Stayed with the Field and Was 2nd.... He DIDN'T Have to Stay with Them but He Did.... He Wouldn't Have Done it if He Didn't Want to, Right?


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## 1stclassalan (7 April 2013)

EKW said:



			Thats where you get back to the stables - they aren't daft these horses! They know where dinner is! It always surprises me how many dart out towards the stable bend when riderless and not follow the rest of the field.
		
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I've done some practical fire tests with people. All the "guinea pigs" thought they had come to a job interview and were given a form to fill in - they should have wondered why they were so many fire exit signs etc., it looked like a H&S nightmare!! Half way through their form filling we triggered the alarm - about half those tested stopped what they were doing and left but NONE of them followed the signs - they ALL went out the way they came in!!!

We gave them all a nice pressy but also told them to take more notice in future as they were walking dead!


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## 1stclassalan (7 April 2013)

Centauress said:



			What about the Loose Horse That Stayed with the Field and Was 2nd.... He DIDN'T Have to Stay with Them but He Did.... He Wouldn't Have Done it if He Didn't Want to, Right?
		
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Horses are HERD animals - they will try to stay together - evolution has determined this as all the slow ones got eaten by predators - the fact that humans have removed the predators for the most part is only a drop in the ocean in historic terms and besides - the horses don't believe us!!!

I have posted on other threads about the want to / forced to thing - it is an emotive subject. Personally, I think it depends on one's view of torture and cruelty - to me, they are being beaten, having one's fingernails pulled out etc., etc., but if you're with the folk who complain about Guantanamo - just being in captivity is torture (despite three square meals a day and full medical facilities) on the grounds that you can't walk out and restart your life of terrorism.

Rational people would not say that horses are unduly mistreated even in the worst racing yard - they must be fit to compete at least - on the otherhand it must be admitted that humans do control them and ..... let's say cadjole them to do things for their keep. 

To avoid hypocracy - I think the only people who can complain of racing are true Vegans as they do not exploit animals whatsoever - everyone else can shut the hell up!


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## Centauress (7 April 2013)

Like I've Said I'm Having Problems Putting into Words what I to say....

But What I'm Trying to Say I think is that Some Horse Do it Because They enjoy it *NOT* because *WE* Force Then to Do it....


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## fburton (7 April 2013)

Centauress said:



			What about the Loose Horse That Stayed with the Field and Was 2nd.... He DIDN'T Have to Stay with Them but He Did.... He Wouldn't Have Done it if He Didn't Want to, Right?
		
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I was cheering him on! "Come on, LooseHorse!" Raised eyebrows from sis et al.


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## Centauress (7 April 2013)

Who Was He? I was too... 
2nd 
***WOOT***


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## fburton (7 April 2013)

Centauress said:



			But What I'm Trying to Say I think is that Some Horse Do it Because They enjoy it *NOT* because *WE* Force Then to Do it....
		
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I think that's right. The flipside is that some horses don't enjoy it so much, but because they are horses they go along with what we want them to do. Not _all_ horses that are raced enjoy racing.

Here are some quotes from the brilliant "How to Win the Grand National" documentary I've just finished watching which are relevant to this:

"You can make 'em jump well enough to go hurdling or for the odd chase, but for the big races like this you need horses that just take it on and do it on their own, loose" (referring to loose jumping in arena)

"They are all different [...] they don't all like trying, they don't all like hard work" (Tony McCoy)

"As a vet, I'm not entirely convinced that horses _want_ to win races"

"I wouldn't say every horse loves to be a racehorse and has got the will to win..." (Becky, trainer)


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## Marydoll (7 April 2013)

ridefast said:



			Well said! I worked on ONE racing yard too, the horses all got daily turnout, went on the walker twice a day, were exercised twice a day, would hack out, school, jump, gallop. Their diets were all tailor made specific to the individual and broken down into several meals so they were trickle feeding constantly either on hard feed or hay. They were fit, healthy, relaxed and happy.
I've also been to a yard to view a pony for sale, the horses were kept in metal "stables" with no sunlight, concrete floor and ****** hay, they were all youngsters and never had any turnout. The owner told us how people kept calling the RSPCA but they didn't think she was doing anything wrong !!!
I also sent my little pony to a riding school for 4 years on loan. He went off a fit happy little pony who was hacking every day and regularly going out and about doing little show jumping etc, came back grumpy withdrawn and biting everyone. A year later he's just about back to his happy self. 
Point is, everything needs to be kept in perspective. No I don't like seeing horses die BUT the horses that die in racing are doing exactly what they've been bred to do, trained to do, and the death is as quick as it can possibly be. I also know several people keeping their horses alive in pain and suffering because they can't give up on them.
		
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The racers up the road from us are stabled, but put on the walker, ridden out and tuned out in the field every day. They are also given regular schooling and rehomed privately at the end of their racing career . I know These guys are well looked after, the horses all look great when we see them out n about, i really hope theres many more yards like this out there


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## Angelbones (7 April 2013)

It's a shame we can't have the same public outcry over the number of horses killed on the road when doing their job of hacking as we do over those killed doing their job of racing. I suspect the number is considerably higher each year than those sadly lost in the GN


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## Missmac (7 April 2013)

Centauress-i think it was The Rainbow Hunter. Shame as i had an eachway bet on him!!


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## cptrayes (7 April 2013)

Angelbones said:



			It's a shame we can't have the same public outcry over the number of horses killed on the road when doing their job of hacking as we do over those killed doing their job of racing. I suspect the number is considerably higher each year than those sadly lost in the GN 

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Can't resist this one 

If a horse died every 250 times anyone went for a hack on a road you'd soon have your outcry.


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