# Introducing...Rocky



## JennBags (31 December 2020)

A few weeks ago, I was introduced to a lady in Scotland who had a border collie that she was struggling with.  I agreed to take him on, but at the last minute they cancelled as they decided to try again with him themselves.  I can understand it, they love their dog, and really wanted to try to resolve their problems.  Just before Christmas Eve they had got to the end of their tether again, and asked me if I'd still be prepared to take him.  I spoke to a transport company as we're now in tier 4 so can't travel and they said they could fit him in with another job they were doing on Saturday, so 2 days later, he arrived.

He's certainly challenging, 1 year old and had almost no training, he's definitely never been told it's ok to be calm!  I must admit that the first few days I was feeling a bit out of depth and wondering what we'd done.  If you count his birth home and the rescue we are his 5th home in a year, and he's confused and energetic.  He has zero recall so all walks are on lead and we have to channel his energy into training and play.  As he's never done any training, it doesn't hold high value for him so we need to really up the energy for it.  However he's hugely affectionate and cuddly, and has a superbly active wagstick, so you can't stay cross with him for very long.

The last couple of days we've started to find the right buttons to push and he's settling in.  Juno and Rocky absolutely love each other, although Juno is taking her promotion to Boss Dog very seriously and makes sure the young upstart knows his place.

Photo spam following!


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## Mynstrel (31 December 2020)

He's beautiful! Looks like he's well and truly fallen on his feet now after a bad start. Well done for giving a troubled soul a proper home, I'm sure he'll pay you back in bucketloads when he settles and realises he's staying.


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## JennBags (31 December 2020)

Just as I was beginning to get fond of him, he shat on the landing again tonight despite me taking him out about an hour ago and supposedly emptying him.  He's a shit monster!


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## Bellasophia (1 January 2021)

What a beautiful dog he is,I love his markings.
you've certainly  given him a new ,better life.


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## MrsMozart (1 January 2021)

He really has landed on his paws with you lass.

Bugger that he's blotted his copybook though... We found with the Rotties, despite having had them from 8 weeks and 10 weeks old and never having failed to house train even the rescue dogs,   that the only way to make sure they don't mess at night is to have them outside for hours during the day. I hope Rocky didn't need that level of exercise and soon learns what and how and when!


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## JennBags (1 January 2021)

MrsMozartletoe said:



			He really has landed on his paws with you lass.

Bugger that he's blotted his copybook though... We found with the Rotties, despite having had them from 8 weeks and 10 weeks old and never having failed to house train even the rescue dogs,   that the only way to make sure they don't mess at night is to have them outside for hours during the day. I hope Rocky didn't need that level of exercise and soon learns what and how and when!
		
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He's messed in the house quite a lot, I think every night, despite apparently being house trained.  At first I put it down to him being unsettled, then we discovered that he's better off having a walk last thing to get the bowels moving rather than just going out to the garden.  That's what we did the last couple of nights, so it is very frustrating that he then came in and poo'd again last night.  He's also just wee'd in the hallway after being out in the garden.  I'm sure we'll get there with him, he's not even been here a week so still needs time to settle.


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## wren123 (1 January 2021)

He is lovely.

Our lab when being housetrained took a long time to stop pooing overnight we stopped it dead by giving one feed a day in the morning. We now give her a small feed in the evening but we needed to break that habit.


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## MrsMozart (1 January 2021)

LotsOfGiftBags said:



			He's messed in the house quite a lot, I think every night, despite apparently being house trained.  At first I put it down to him being unsettled, then we discovered that he's better off having a walk last thing to get the bowels moving rather than just going out to the garden.  That's what we did the last couple of nights, so it is very frustrating that he then came in and poo'd again last night.  He's also just wee'd in the hallway after being out in the garden.  I'm sure we'll get there with him, he's not even been here a week so still needs time to settle.
		
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He's lucky he's with you, though I feel your angst.  I hope he gets the hang of it very quickly!


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## SAujla (1 January 2021)

He definitely sounds like a challenge and I agree he's lucky to be with you, I'm not sure everyone would be as patient with a near 1 year old. He's very handsome


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## Pearlsasinger (1 January 2021)

Good on you for taking him on!  Wired BC's are *very* energetic.  I am sure that having Boss Dog to show him the ropes will help.  As for the messing overnight, is he crate-trained?   If not, I would start that immediately, obviously for short periods of time initially when you can leave him in a crate overnight, that should break the habit.  In the meantime, have you considered using puppy pads, they do attract/encourage the dog to use them when you might not want him to but at least they are easier to clean up than having to sort out your carpet.


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## JennBags (1 January 2021)

Pearlsacarolsinger said:



			Good on you for taking him on!  Wired BC's are *very* energetic.  I am sure that having Boss Dog to show him the ropes will help.  As for the messing overnight, is he crate-trained?   If not, I would start that immediately, obviously for short periods of time initially when you can leave him in a crate overnight, that should break the habit.  In the meantime, have you considered using puppy pads, they do attract/encourage the dog to use them when you might not want him to but at least they are easier to clean up than having to sort out your carpet.
		
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Not crate trained, we have started working on it but he's got an aversion to the crate, I suspect he already has bad connotations with it which iof course makes training harder.  I opened both doors in the office the other day and threw some treats in, but he wouldn't go in to retrieve them until I left the room.  It will take time.
To be honest, our carpet is ruined from when Suzie got older, we were planning on replacing it at some point this spring, so may as well leave it until he's sorted!


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## CorvusCorax (1 January 2021)

The toileting inside will most likely just be stress with a big change in his life. If he doesn't like the crate then try and curtail him to one area of the house with play pen panels etc so you can watch him all the time, just the same as you would do with a pup.


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## Karran (1 January 2021)

Gosh, he sounds SO similar to Miss Collie in terms of background and energy levels!

I also feel your pain about toileting. I got her August bank holiday and it wasnt until lockdown started in March that we got a handle on it! 

Good luck with him! Maybe we will need to start a deranged border collie support group thread! 😂😂😂🤔


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## Goldenstar (1 January 2021)

LotsOfGiftBags said:



			Not crate trained, we have started working on it but he's got an aversion to the crate, I suspect he already has bad connotations with it which iof course makes training harder.  I opened both doors in the office the other day and threw some treats in, but he wouldn't go in to retrieve them until I left the room.  It will take time.
To be honest, our carpet is ruined from when Suzie got older, we were planning on replacing it at some point this spring, so may as well leave it until he's sorted!
		
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He’s lovely I look forward  reading about your journey with him .
Your carpet sounds like my bedroom carpet first we don’t replace because a dog is old then we don’t replace because we have a puppy or plan to have a puppy it’s an endless cycle.


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## TheresaW (1 January 2021)

Bo will still mess in the house when stressed. He was totally clean, then when all the fireworks started in October he was messing overnight again. Took a good couple of weeks after they’d stopped for him to stop doing it. We got some tablets for last night, and plugins for the house, and he was clean this morning.


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## Squeak (1 January 2021)

He looks a lovely boy and he sounds like he's fallen on his feet with you.


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## BBP (1 January 2021)

I know the messing in the house is a horrible nuisance, but it won’t be forever, he’s probably just a very stressed dog and so house rules aren’t upmost in his mind. He is absolutely gorgeous though, and the fact that he and Juno get on is a huge bonus so early on.
I sometimes think of getting a second dog as company for my collie, but I worry about if he would love or hate whatever dog I got, and the idea of managing two if they had issues is a bit overwhelming (although I am alone so it’s all on me), so I really take my hat off to you for giving him a chance.


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## FinnishLapphund (1 January 2021)

That's a lot of homes for a dog only a year old, I hope it doesn't take too long before his problems is mostly a thing of the past. 

It's not always easy to figure out how to fix the problem with a housebroken dog who still occasionally pee, and/or poop indoors. Getting the timing between when they're fed, and when they're taken outdoors, right, and maybe also temporarily using a crate, or puppy pen, doesn't always solve the problem if it's stress, or insecurity feelings involved. 
Hopefully continuity, and perseverance, will soon pay off.


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## misst (1 January 2021)

He is lovely! He's still a young dog so hopefully will learn quickly. Lucky boy but I bet he loves you both to bits.


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## Mynstrel (1 January 2021)

We were our rescues 6th home at 6 months, it does leave scars. If our lads upset or wound up he won't poo if any of the others are outside with him and then we have accidents. He's 2½ now and we're still learning with him.


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## MrsMozart (1 January 2021)

Our GSD is on her fourth home - I think, I might've missed one, though this is her last one for sure - and even though she's never been hit here, if she does something 'naughty' then a slightly raised voice has her cowering. Absolutely hate seeing her like that. She gets so stressed and wound up and will end up running back and forth. The only way to manage her when she's like that is to calm right down, reduce the energy levels and go very calm.

One of our rescue Shi Tzu would cower and bend her body in an attempt to be small and hide. Many years after we'd got them, I shouted at her, only once and never did it again - to see her twist her tiny little self into that shape made me cry.

I'm not sure they ever completely forget, though good lives will push it so far back that it should never become an issue.


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## FinnishLapphund (1 January 2021)

Mynstrel said:



			We were our rescues 6th home at 6 months, it does leave scars. If our lads upset or wound up he won't poo if any of the others are outside with him and then we have accidents. He's 2½ now and we're still learning with him.
		
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Poor doggy, how lucky for him that he landed with you.


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## JennBags (2 January 2021)

I don't know that I can do this.  Just took him out (on his own as he's much better), went into a field to practice some games to increase my value to him and took his short lead off, just left the long lead on the harness (I know now this was a mistake). Anyway, he wasn't interested in me or my treats, was just racing around uncontrollably and I started getting worried he'd wriggle out of his harness so I got closer to him to put his short lead back on the collar, and he full on attacked me!  Thank God I had gloves and a puffer jacket on, my hands are seriously bruised and the jacket has holes in it, he wasn't playing.  He then went crazy running round grabbing the short lead, grabbing the treat bag, every time I went to pick anything up he went for my hands.  Eventually got the short lead looped round his neck like a slip lead (it's a rope lead) and got him out of the field where his stress levels came down and I could clip the lead back on.  Rest of the walk was uneventful, he was actually quite well behaved, didn't pull me around too much and we didn't meet any other dogs or people so his stress levels didn't rise.
Then got home and went in the garage to clean the feet (as usual) which resulted in him biting my hands and arms again every time I tried to clean his feet.  I managed to unclip the leads but didn't dare to take his harness off.
Then thought I'd try a few minutes of loose leash and waiting at doors training which he was pretty good at, but then when I stopped, he launched himself at my hands again.
Think I'll get a behaviourist friend involved as I've never experienced anything like it.


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## Sandstone1 (2 January 2021)

He sounds a handful. Perhaps dont try free running him yet even with a long line attached as his arousal levels clearly go sky high.  
Its very early days for him so calm short lead walks would be best.  Possibly consider muzzle training him so he can not hurt you if he does get over aroused.


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## SAujla (2 January 2021)

Could he be going through adolescence as well? Seems about the right age for it. Combined with all the upheaval he's had and lack of training plus being a BC it's all a lot. I applaud your patience and effort, it's maybe going to be a longer project than you expected though


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## CorvusCorax (2 January 2021)

Don't panic it's not unusual, just redirecting and your hands were in the way/the first thing to grab. It's the same as when pups start mouthing you after zoomies or when agility or flyball or IGP dogs bite into the lead after their round, it's a release of pent up pressure/frustration. Dogs feel the world through their mouths the way we do with hands.

You've only had him days, it's just too early to let him off the long line/give him the benefit of the doubt/let him go too wild. Carry a soft/chewable toy or one of the soft leads designed for holding/biting/carrying so he can take his drive out on that if he does get overwrought.
Use a slip line for close handling/so you can keep hands out of way. I'd also keep a house line on him.


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## Karran (2 January 2021)

Bless you! I've had plenty of those thoughts and tears, even this morning when the little cow decided to ignore everything in favour of a jogger.
We've also had over excited savaging, I really feel for you!
CC is right, it calms down. He's overwhelmed by everything. How about ditching walks for now and just practice basic obedience in the garden and building up from there slowly. 
I've been there, still going through it, so if you need a vent, sounding board, feel free to message me.
It took Miss Collie ages to settle around the house just enough to listen to me.


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## JennBags (2 January 2021)

Karran that's really interesting that you had similar with Miss Collie, how is she doing now?
Definitely will not be doing long lead walks again for the moment, we've already discovered that walking for more than about 35-40 minutes gets his arousal levels up so we've been keeping them shorter.  Even in the garden his arousal levels are too high for obedience as yet, but he hasnt quite been here a week yet.
Mr JB came home with Juno, and they all spent some time out in the garden, when they came back in, Juno wanted to go to sleep but Rocky was over aroused, she lay down and he was jumping and barking at the back door, we totally ignored him and now he's gone to sleep thank goodness.
Have contacted my behaviourist friend to book in some 1-2-1s with her.


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## PapaverFollis (2 January 2021)

You'll get there with him, Jenn.  Sounds like it's going to be one millimetre at a time rather than one step at a time but you can do it.   I don't really have enough experience to recommend anything.  I can kind of picture how I'd approach things but don't know if it's right (would mostly be teaching "place"... just lie down or sit calmly on a mat basically. And nothing else for now).  I think contacting the behaviourist is a good move, real life support is always best.


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## Karran (2 January 2021)

LotsOfGiftBags said:



			Karran that's really interesting that you had similar with Miss Collie, how is she doing now?
Have contacted my behaviourist friend to book in some 1-2-1s with her.
		
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We had a huge blip in November that we are struggling to get over in terms of park recall but shes back to being really cuddly in the house, brilliant in the garden (shes been learning how to weave over xmas) and good on the long line.

You're already better than me, as she was too scared to be near me when she arrived so I had that hurdle to get over.

If garden is too exciting, then dial it back even further. Gentle obedience in say the kitchen, and then see if he can do it in the bedroom or living room. His world has been turned upside down repeatedly and he doesn't know how to cope.

Miss Collie is super wired and it transferred into her being super sensitive and worse than my spaniel in terms of being able to tell her off (and my cocker is the very definition of a velcro dog who cant cope with a raised voice).
I made the mistake of expecting her to fit in instantly with my life when she needed a lot of time to feel safe at home and around me first of all.
He (like Miss Collie) needs to learn to be calm and feel safe and I stopped feeding her from a bowl and having a set mealtime and only fed her from my hand, getting her to play catch or flicking it to her. Things that will drag out meals might also help like kongs and slow feeders. So might be an idea to try?

Other people might know more than me, but that's how I went about it with Miss Collie and eventually we went to the garden for games, then short on lead walks around the roads before we went back to the park and it was a good while before I let the long line drag freely on the floor.


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## Mynstrel (2 January 2021)

All of what Karran and cc are saying, especially not doing things that tip him over the edge until life isn't so overwhelming for him. Build a relationship and exercise his brain in ways he can cope with, mental exercise can be more tiring but less arousing than physical exercise. Google stress buckets if you haven't come across them already, it'll help to understand where his head is at.


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## Clodagh (2 January 2021)

It sounds very upsetting but just to say that Ffee, a Labrador I have had since a pup, bites my arm when she gets overexcited. She did it this morning and it bloody hurt. 
Apart from that reassurance I have no real help. Good luck!


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## Karran (2 January 2021)

I have a friend who's collie always bites her on her first flyball run just through sheer over arousal.
Once that run is done she is a focused, brilliant dog and the dog also taught herself naturally in autism support for her son so it's not necessarily a sign of aggression.


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## blodwyn1 (2 January 2021)

Please use a muzzle for your protection my face is severely scarred after an attack from our spaniel who had cocker rage. The most loving dog normally.


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## Cinnamontoast (2 January 2021)

Puss cat does a bitey thing when really riled up. However, he doesn’t hurt and has very good bite inhibition, didn’t leave the breeders til he was was 9 weeks. I wonder when yours was taken?

I‘d say keep him on a short leash, be super strict with him. Re toileting on the house, our first two seemed to take ages then my pil had them for a weekend when we were away. They confined them to the corridor overnight and they were trained! Maybe see if you can keep him somewhere overnight?


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## SusieT (2 January 2021)

Consider a snuffle mat or similar for brain engagement.
You say 'kept biting me everytime I tried to clean his feet'- set yourself up to suceed, dont try and handle a bit of the body like the feet when he has had a bad day, it will just set you up to fail.
You will get used to his cues etc. Definitely some behavioural input (ps- if it doesnt work out in a few months, do consider if the kindest thing would be to pts rather than pass him on again as sounds like you have his best interests at heart and he may be tricky!)
Main thing is - its very early days, I'd expect it to take several months to be anywhere near the dog you will eventually get if that makes sense.


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## skinnydipper (2 January 2021)

LotsOfGiftBags said:



			As he's never done any training, it doesn't hold high value for him so we need to really up the energy for it
		
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I wouldn't ramp things up for him.  He needs to relax.

He has been through a lot - rescue kennels, previous homes, long journey and the excitement and uncertainty of what to expect in a new home.

He is reactive because he is stressed/aroused and he can't cope.

I've mentioned trigger stacking on the forum in the past.

When a dog experiences a stressful event or high arousal, cortisol (a stress hormone) is released.  It can take days for the level to return to normal but if in the meantime the dog is further aroused or stressed this "tops up" the existing cortisol - this means that the dog is in a permanently stressed state.  When triggers stack up this can take the dog over the threshold of what he can cope with and he may become either reactive or shut down.

It is perfectly normal for rescue dogs to take time to settle and I am surprised that PTS has been suggested by someone who has never met the dog.  I am not sure what SusieT's qualifications in canine behaviour are or if she has much experience of rehoming dogs with behavioural problems.

NB  I am a pet owner with no qualifications in canine behaviour.

A qualified behaviourist who can work with you and Rocky is an excellent idea.


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## On the Hoof (2 January 2021)

i think you have had some good advice here Jen and i would be hard put to add to it, as you know i have a fearful and hypersensitive BC which leads to over arousal and in the early days we did have some redirected biting when she was in the garden where she basically used to go into the 'red zone'.   What I have learned with Ripley is not to give up on my dreams for a normal life with her, but to just assume it will take time.  Basically you need to deal with dog in front of you every day, and some days as many have said, his bucket will be full, so he will need very calm quiet indoor days to come down again.  Honestly I would stop trying any obedience work with him completely.  focus on being a calm leader,  so yes set your boundaries but keep them simple at this stage (toileting outside, holding at doorways, just walking next to you in the house , calm while waiting for food etc  - whatever your boundaries are that are most important within the house.  This will set him up in good stead for being outside with you. He doesnt need training right now, he needs a safe calm household where he can find his paws and settle down and feel safe with you.  From that every thing else will come.  The dog will reflect your feelings, so if you are feeling stressed , then so will the dog.  I think that you are a very goal orientated person, from what I know of you,    and I think its amazing that you have taken Rocky on, but I think you need to reduce your expectations at this stage.  You cannot 'fix him' with training,  but you can provide a safe calm home in which he will eventually thrive.


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## horseman1985 (2 January 2021)

Such a lovely dog!


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## JennBags (3 January 2021)

skinnydipper said:



			I wouldn't ramp things up for him.  He needs to relax.

He has been through a lot - rescue kennels, previous homes, long journey and the excitement and uncertainty of what to expect in a new home.

He is reactive because he is stressed/aroused and he can't cope.

I've mentioned trigger stacking on the forum in the past.

When a dog experiences a stressful event or high arousal, cortisol (a stress hormone) is released.  It can take days for the level to return to normal but if in the meantime the dog is further aroused or stressed this "tops up" the existing cortisol - this means that the dog is in a permanently stressed state.  When triggers stack up this can take the dog over the threshold of what he can cope with and he may become either reactive or shut down.

It is perfectly normal for rescue dogs to take time to settle and I am surprised that PTS has been suggested by someone who has never met the dog.  I am not sure what SusieT's qualifications in canine behaviour are or if she has much experience of rehoming dogs with behavioural problems.

NB  I am a pet owner with no qualifications in canine behaviour.

A qualified behaviourist who can work with you and Rocky is an excellent idea.
		
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Thanks SD.  That's all very interesting, and makes perfect sense.
I was surprised when you said someone had suggested PTS as I hadn't seen that, but then you mentioned SusieT who is the only person I have on UI on this forum due to her ignorance and insensitivity.  When we lost Woolfie she was absolutely vile so I put her on UI and the forum has been a better place since.
After the shenanigans yesterday morning, things much improved and it ended up being a good day.


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## skinnydipper (3 January 2021)

LotsOfGiftBags said:



			Thanks SD. That's all very interesting, and makes perfect sense.

I was surprised when you said someone had suggested PTS as I hadn't seen that, but then you mentioned SusieT who is the only person I have on UI on this forum due to her ignorance and insensitivity. When we lost Woolfie she was absolutely file so I put her on UI and the forum has been a better place since.
After the shenanigans yesterday morning, things much improved and it ended up being a good day.
		
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You had had some good advice and I saw no reason to comment until I saw her post. She has given some seriously bad advice on AAD in the past.

Rocky is currently getting so highly aroused that he is unable to listen to you, think, or control how he responds.  This will improve as he calms down.

At a year he is not a lost cause.  His brain is plastic and can change with appropriate training.  Good neural pathways (the behaviours that you want) can be reinforced and the dendrites that he stops using, because those behaviours are no longer useful or necessary for him, will be pruned by the brain.  (that's my layman's interpretation of how synaptic pruning works in dogs )

I hope it works out for you and Rocky but if it doesn't, there is no shame in that. He is a young dog with many years ahead of him and it would not be good for _you_ to be stressed for the next 10 years or more.

If you feel he needs to be rehomed,  please contact the Rescue that he came from rather than try to rehome him yourself. There is often a clause in the adoption agreement that the dog must be returned to them. If you tell them the problems that you have found, they can evaluate him and involve their own behaviourist.


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## Pearlsasinger (3 January 2021)

LotsOfGiftBags said:



			Thanks SD.  That's all very interesting, and makes perfect sense.
I was surprised when you said someone had suggested PTS as I hadn't seen that, but then you mentioned SusieT who is the only person I have on UI on this forum due to her ignorance and insensitivity.  When we lost Woolfie she was absolutely file so I put her on UI and the forum has been a better place since.
After the shenanigans yesterday morning, things much improved and it ended up being a good day.
		
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I rarely agree with SusieT, she is one of those posters that I have on 'virtual ignore' but tbf, she only suggested pts, rather than passing him on again, which considering that OP said at one point that she wasn't sure she 'could do this' I don't consider to be an unreasonable comment.
I agree with posters who are saying keep him as calm as possible, we had a rehomed BC, who brought her own cat with her and I firmly believe that helped her to settle with us.  I am sure that Boss Dog will be a great help in settling Rocky into his new routine.


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## cbmcts (3 January 2021)

I feel your pain Jenn. As you might remember I have a deaf Rottie rescue, he's a bit older than Rocky - nearly 3 - but he has what we call hysterics every now and again. When he's like that there is no getting through to him, I've just got 45kgs of tank turning himself inside out on the lead or charging around the house or garden bouncing off everyone and everything. He has snapped a few times but only bitten once but TBH, that's because I don't push my luck! I don't trust him which is sad. 

When he gets over stimulated - I try and avoid it but that's not always possible - I really have to slow everything down, stay very calm and ignore the behaviour until he takes a breath. If we're out, I get him on a very short lead and march him back to the car or home, minimal reaction and attention. By the time we get home he's usually got a grip. At home, he gets put in his crate with a really good treat or bone for time out and a chance to calm himself and not let back out until he has had a nap! It's not how I've ever used a crate before but while he is literally climbing the walls, ignoring him is not an option (tried it but didn't work). Considered and am still open to a behaviourist but due to covid only remote consultations are available so not going there yet. What I am exploring with my vet is anti anxiety meds just to try and keep him on a more even keel. The vet was on holiday over Christmas so I've got to book an appointment next week but as I'm not allowed into the vets at the moment it needs to coordinate with the one vet nurse who I trust to handle him with a handover in the car park. 

In saying all that, he's a great, very intelligent (if only he would use his brain for good purposes) dog. Lockdowns and restrictions haven't helped as he's not been occupied and socialised enough. Being deaf makes communication harder of course but of multiple, some very difficult dogs he is the biggest challenge so far and more than once I've seriously considered returning him.  But I do love him dearly, he makes me laugh in between wanting to scream with frustration and if I can just build a bond, a relationship, whatever you want to call it with him he has great potential. I'm sure that Rocky will be the same in time but it's it's ok to think think WTF have I done? 7 months on, I still do most days...


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## Clodagh (3 January 2021)

I'm glad your day improved. I take my hat of to you all who try to help difficult dogs to lead a better life.


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## JennBags (3 January 2021)

Really appreciate the advice and input; and hearing other people's challenges and successes is really useful.  I am reading and digesting every post even though I'm not responding individually.
cbmcts you sound like you have your hands full, and your way of dealing with him is inspirational.
I don't think he's a PTS case at all, it wasn't aggression as such, he's just trying to communicate and doesn't know how to when he's over-aroused.  He's an incredibly quick learner, already he sits and waits for his meals, this morning he wanted to hop onto the bed but did a half hop then sat looking at me waiting to be invited.  
I was a little overwrought yesterday morning, it was pretty stressful being attacked by him, but I completely understand why he did it.  I'm taking all the advice here to keep things calmer and not try too hard with the training as yet.  The behaviourist has a collie with almost exactly the same problems that she got at a year old, so she is going to be a brilliant asset to have, I'm booking my first session with her this week.


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## FinnishLapphund (3 January 2021)

I agree with Skinnydipper's reply #37 about that it's important to remember that stress actually have physiological affects on the body.
But I have to admit that reading "I don't think that I can do this", in JennBags reply #23, made me think maybe temporarily overwhelmed, or maybe  about to decide that they can't keep the dog, and if it's the later, what alternatives comes after that.

So I can only ditto Pearlsasinger's reply #42. I often don't agree with SusieT, but this time I think that they had a point, and didn't say it in an offensive way either, without only as a p.s. to consider if things didn't work out after some months.

But it's nice to hear that you don't actually feel that his stress, and problems, is more than you can manage, JennBags. I hope that the session with your behaviourist friend gives you some good suggestions about how to continue. And that no new Coronavirus restrictions makes the whole thing impossible.

One of the big problems with dogs that are incredibly quick learners, is that their brains, in general, don't shut off easily. And when he's too stressed, shut off is what he needs, but also what he might find most difficult to learn.


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## skinnydipper (3 January 2021)

I know it happens on the forum but I am never comfortable with, or feel it appropriate for,  a random stranger to suggest that someone euthanise their pet, for whatever reason - behavioural or medical.

That is for the owner to decide, with advice and guidance from their vet.


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## Sandstone1 (3 January 2021)

skinnydipper said:



			I know it happens on the forum but I am never comfortable with, or feel it appropriate for,  a random stranger to suggest that someone euthanise their pet, for whatever reason - behavioural or medical.

That is for the owner to decide, with advice and guidance from their vet.
		
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I agree, it happens often on here.


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## Pearlsasinger (3 January 2021)

skinnydipper said:



			I know it happens on the forum but I am never comfortable with, or feel it appropriate for,  a random stranger to suggest that someone euthanise their pet, for whatever reason - behavioural or medical.

That is for the owner to decide, with advice and guidance from their vet if necessary.
		
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Not really sure why I am defending Susie T but she wasn't suggesting that LOGB have the dog pts, just that it would be a better option than passing him on again if she decided that she couldn't cope with him.  As LOGB had suggested that she might not be able to cope it wasn't unreasonable imho to ask her to consider not passing him on to yet another home.  All immaterial, anyway as LOGB says she intends to persevere.  I am sure that most of us who have taken on adult dogs with issues have at some stage thought at least 'I must be mad' but have gathered ourselves together and persevered to find ourselves with a lovely dog, several months/years down the line.


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## Clodagh (3 January 2021)

Pearlsacarolsinger said:



			Not really sure why I am defending Susie T but she wasn't suggesting that LOGB have the dog pts, just that it would be a better option than passing him on again if she decided that she couldn't cope with him.  As LOGB had suggested that she might not be able to cope it wasn't unreasonable imho to ask her to consider not passing him on to yet another home.  All immaterial, anyway as LOGB says she intends to persevere.  I am sure that most of us who have taken on adult dogs with issues have at some stage thought at least 'I must be mad' but have gathered ourselves together and persevered to find ourselves with a lovely dog, several months/years down the line.
		
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It was, in fact, the first post I have ever seen from ST that has not been vindictive, nasty and aimed to cause distress.
I don’t blame OP for the UI though, I remember the Woolfie posts.


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## cbmcts (3 January 2021)

skinnydipper said:



			I know it happens on the forum but I am never comfortable with, or feel it appropriate for,  a random stranger to suggest that someone euthanise their pet, for whatever reason - behavioural or medical.

That is for the owner to decide, with advice and guidance from their vet.
		
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Respectfully, I disagree with this. I don't think that anyone would PTS just because of advice on a screen! But it is always good to remember that sometimes PTS is a valid option. It's never easy and not to be done lightly but it can be the right, albeit appallingly difficult decision and welfare wise, the better option for some animals than being passed on yet again. Sadly, many vets, for many reasons including that they don't have to live with a physically healthy but mentally damaged dog do not want or are not able to guide owners in an impartial fashion. I strongly believe that PTS is never a welfare issue as the animal will not suffer or know that their life was shortened.


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## TheresaW (3 January 2021)

I know Bo was nowhere near as bad as Rocky seems to be at the moment, but we were told when collected him, if it didn’t work, to take him back. He didn’t come from the nicest place, and I was told quietly, if we couldn’t cope, would we PTS rather than send him back. It’s not always the worst thing for a dog/horse/animal of choice.

I hope Rocky will settle, and I’m sure LOGB will give him the best chance he can have.


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## Karran (3 January 2021)

In all honesty, Miss Collie walked a tightrope for the first 6 months she was with me. I had a behaviorist and several people who's opinion I respected tell me, that there would be no shame in it. That "when you grow bored of dealing with her, there is only one ethical answer."
I ummmed and aaahhhed. Passing her on would have escalated her stress, she could/would have seriously hurt someone and I would never have forgiven myself.
We agreed that if I or my brother realised that we were scared of her, then we would book the vets for that one way trip. 
I didn't trust her for the longest time, I still dont trust her with strangers and I manage this, although she now keeps out the way or offers signals that I can read to help take her away from pushy "all dogs love me" strangers rather than her just lash out mindlessly.
SusieT writes some stuff that I dont agree with, tonewise or content but I did agree with that post. The dogs dont know, better that than kennels and more stress and trying to adapt to yet another home and rules.
Jenn. I'm 100% not saying that's the only answer but there would be no judgement from me if you decided that way was the way to go.

I genuinely think you can turn this poor dog around, it already sounds better from the update, keep us updated on the behaviorist and how you get on! 

 Its gonna be exhausting, its gonna be stressful, it makes you question everything you ever thought you knew about dogs, but I now have a huge lapdog who offers cuddles, and today I pushed her around on her back in the kitchen pretending she was a broom to sweep up her hair and dust. Absolutely unthinkable this time last year.


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## JennBags (3 January 2021)

I don't know what SusieT said, but I'd absolutely have an aggressive dog PTS rather than passing it on.  I don't believe Rocky is aggressive per se, he's just trying to communicate and find his feet.  As cbmcts says, it's not a welfare issues as the dog doesn't know it's life has been shortened and it's a much better option than being passed from pillar to post and never being happy or fulfilled.


FinnishLapphund said:



			One of the big problems with dogs that are incredibly quick learners, is that their brains, in general, don't shut off easily. And when he's too stressed, shut off is what he needs, but also what he might find most difficult to learn.
		
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That's interesting, he is super smart, I've been stunned by how quickly he is picking stuff up, I always thought Juno was super smart but he's like lightning compared with her.  He takes ages to shut down when he's tired, but when he does, he's out for the count!


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## SAujla (3 January 2021)

Is he food motivated? Could try a stuffed kong or some long lasting chew. It was never going to be easy otherwise he would never have got to you, but his personality traits won't have cemented in yet will they so still time.


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## JennBags (6 January 2021)

The last few days have been much better.  We've taken the energy right down and he's responding well.  He has several 20-30 minute walks a day, getting much better at leash response and not pulling.  He's still messing in the house, yesterday morning we thought we'd had our first night without a poo but then Mr JB found one in the spare room (the door was shut, he must have gone in before we shut the door).  He then did both yesterday evening, I think we should reinstate the stair gate so he can't go upstairs when we're downstairs and vice versa.
I tried feeding him by hand yesterday but he got quite wound up with the excitement so ended up just giving him about a third of his breakfast that way.  He knows "bed" command now but doesn't always obey it yet!  He is a!so happiky going in and out of the crate with me there.
Had to cancel our appointment with the behaviourist for now due to the lockdown. Although she was still happy to come out, this new strain seems highly contagious, we know several people who've caught it and as Mr JB is in his 60s we don't want to expose ourselves  any more than is necessary.  I also have to see my vulnerable mum regularly and don't want her exposed either.


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## PapaverFollis (6 January 2021)

Instead of hand feeding maybe trying just scattering kibble on the ground for him to sniff out, or a "snuffle mat" if it needs to be a little bit more contained. Should give his nose and brain a workout.

Glad things are going a bit better.


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## JennBags (6 January 2021)

PapaverFollis said:



			Instead of hand feeding maybe trying just scattering kibble on the ground for him to sniff out, or a "snuffle mat" if it needs to be a little bit more contained. Should give his nose and brain a workout.

Glad things are going a bit better.
		
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A snuffle mat is a good idea, thank you.


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## CorvusCorax (6 January 2021)

Throw one bit of kibble a short distance on the ground in front of you, call him, throw another bit between your legs or on the ground close to you. That's how we teach young puppies quick recall. Keep the distances short so he isn't tempted to go off and do zoomies.


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## JennBags (10 January 2021)

Update on Rocky, we've had him 2 weeks now.  This is turning into a novel, so congratulations if you get to the end 🤣.

I'm really getting to grips with him although Mr JB isn't and he's being very miserable and negative about him which of course isn't going to help.  We have how had 4 mess free nights 🥳🥳

I've continued feeding from the hand and keeping excitement levels low, which is working very well, he's super smart and picking everything up very quickly.  He's sitting at distance, automatically lying down in his bed and getting a good wait. This morning I started "look at me" and he got it instantly.  In the mornings when I let Juno into the garden, I play a game of Ready Steady, Free Dog except I use other words the first 2 or 3 times.  He's been watching Juno do this, and yesterday he ran back to the conservatory door to wait with her for the game.

Yesterday morning he slipped past me out of the front door, I didn't have shoes on so had to get them on first, thankfully some neighbours were walking their 8mo collie pup and grabbed his collar when he came over to greet her. He was so obsessed with the pup, he didn't react to them thank god!

I wanted to ride yesterday afternoon so left him with Mr JB.  He was hyper as usual, they were out in the garden and the 2 dogs were playing, it then turned into an argument and Rocky started fighting back (usually when Juno snarls at him, he backs down).  Juno was apparently scared and went and hid in the kitchen, and Mr JB couldn't get Rocky in, so left him in the garden barking.  I am not going to be able to leave him with Mr JB for the moment, he just doesn't seem to understand how to handle him, so Rocky will have to get used to being a car dog while I ride.

Rocky is getting very attached to me which may be part of the problem.  Juno is also very much my dog, and she's a little sad as I'm taking Rocky out not her, I feel sad that she's sad.  However I took her to the office and left Rocky with Mr JB the other day and it didn't go well, so I don't see that I have any option.  Today I took them both out together, Rocky was back on 2 leads but he was pretty good, he did pull but not all the time!  When we got back, Mr JB was outside the house so I dropped the short lead and let him off the other, Mr JB called him and he ran up to him (by the way we live in a cul de sac or I wouldn't have done this).

I'm considering putting him in doggy day care a couple of times a week, I did this with Juno and it did her the world of good and also gave me a break.  Mr JB forgets how full on Juno was as he didn't really look after her, it was always me.  Rocky is more challenging but he's at that difficult age and I think his hormones are really kicking in, yesterday he tried to hump me several times.

I'm looking forward to being able to let him off lead, when he's ready of course, I know it will be a few months, as I think he will get so much more from life.


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## JennBags (10 January 2021)

Oops sorry forgot to add a picture, sorry to anyone following Adventures with Juno as I posted this yesterday on there but this was my bed yesterday morning (they are both on my legs!)

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		https://flic.kr/p/2kquj2N


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## Mynstrel (10 January 2021)

Sounds like you're making good progress with him. It's difficult when the human members of the family aren't all doing the same things with a challenging dog. I've always said things with 4 legs are much easier to train! 😋

PS they're both gorgeous!


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## Pearlsasinger (10 January 2021)

Well done, on the good progress that you have made so far.  Could you leave Rocky at home when you ride, by putting him in his crate, so that he has company but can't get into any kind of trouble?   Mr JB might also benefit from seeing Rocky staying calmly in the crate.  Of course this might be a step too far currently.


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## milliepops (10 January 2021)

been following but not posting as a non-dog owner I'm totally clueless. but I read the latest update with a smile on my face, I'm so pleased you're making progress  sounds very challenging but I guess now you can see improvements it must feel a bit less difficult to handle.  Lucky Rocky landing with a patient person who will show him how to be a happy chap.


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## JennBags (10 January 2021)

Thanks all, honestly I'm such an amateur but am trying my very hardest to end up with a polite, well behaved and fun dog!
PAS I'm making progress on crate training but he's clearly been shoved in a crate as a puppy and left there; going in the crate is viewed by him as punishment and I don't want him to experience that at the moment as he can be slightly volatile and I want him to feel secure and happy with us.  He is quite comfortable in the car (in a crate funnily enough!) so I'm not worried about leaving him there.


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## Pinkvboots (10 January 2021)

I am so happy to read your last update his a lovely looking dog I had a murle collie with the same face markings, this was many years ago I bought her from Southall market from some men of the travelling community, she was in a bit of a mess hated other dogs and wouldn't live inside, so she lived in the hay barn at the yard where I lived in the mobile home there, one of my liveries absolutely loved her and the dog also seemed to want to constantly be with her so I ended up giving her the dog and she happily lived indoors with her, I have a feeling my mobile home brought back to many scary memories for her and that's why she just wouldn't step one foot inside, so I am just glad she had a happy life in the end.


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## SAujla (10 January 2021)

JennBags said:



			Thanks all, honestly I'm such an amateur but am trying my very hardest to end up with a polite, well behaved and fun dog!
PAS I'm making progress on crate training but he's clearly been shoved in a crate as a puppy and left there; going in the crate is viewed by him as punishment and I don't want him to experience that at the moment as he can be slightly volatile and I want him to feel secure and happy with us.  He is quite comfortable in the car (in a crate funnily enough!) so I'm not worried about leaving him there.
		
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You definitely aren't an amateur (I am so takes one to know one etc). I really like that you are taking things slowly with the crate, it's obvious he won't react well if you try and tough love him through the process of getting used to the crate. I still occasionally feed my pup meals in her crate. 

That picture of the two of them is wonderful


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## JennBags (10 January 2021)

Just took this one...

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		https://flic.kr/p/2kqRvis


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## Bellasophia (10 January 2021)

Hats off to you for taking on this dog..if anyone can succeed with him you will be the one.He’s such a beautiful dog  I keep looking at his first photo,just stunning. I’ve just started a collie head pyro today..he’s motivated me.


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## hobo (10 January 2021)

Lovely update. On the crate training Hobo had every meal in his crate so it was never seen as a punishment and if he was scared he would go in it off his own choice. Good that is does not mind the car crate that makes life easier.


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## MrsMozart (10 January 2021)

You're doing a grand job with him lass. 

It is hard work, incredibly so at times, but your consistency will pay off.


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## JennBags (10 January 2021)

I hope so Mrs M!


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## JennBags (10 January 2021)

Oh dear it's 2 steps forward and one straight back again!  We all came up to bed, he took a used sanitary towel out of the bin, I went to take it from him and he went for me, drew blood.  Then he shat on the landing, no doubt a stress response, he looks very upset.


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## PapaverFollis (10 January 2021)

Oh no. Poor lad..poor you! Such a stressful thing when they get stuff they shouldn't,  have to fight all your instincts. Mine don't bite me but are liable to swallow whatever they have more quickly if I try and take it away! So I have had to try and make the default response going to get a biscuit to do a swap rather than going to grab the contraband item from the dog.... it's verging on impossible sometimes though. I'm sorry he got you. 🙁


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## Cinnamontoast (10 January 2021)

My first instinct is to teach a very strong leave it command, mine are horrific scavengers so this has been invaluable. However, I think his brain is just overwhelmed currently. Maybe don’t make any fuss at all, obviously you need to retrieve unsuitable items, so offer an exchange of a high value treat instead. If Juno is used to this, ask her to come and get a treat, sit, take it the way she has been taught. Any OTT discipline/just taking stuff from him is not going to work with this dog. 

I can understand Mr JB not being happy, he doesn’t want you hurt. Mr CT is the same. I don’t know how patient your OH is and how much he’s prepared to tolerate from this dog.


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## CorvusCorax (10 January 2021)

JB I was going to post this earlier but thought I was being a negative nelly...I personally would get him off the bed until he understands some ground rules.
For me this is a dog that needs really clear boundaries and handling for the next few weeks if not months. 
No freedom in the house to raid bins etc, taken from one place to another by you, you control all resources..food, exercise, interactions with other dogs, where he sleeps, you make all the decisions, everything comes from you.
This IMO would be the fairest thing and if you put the work in now, you will have a much happier dog. 
It's not for everyone and your OH has to be on board but it will help him in the long run and it's helped a fair few people in the past, including me.


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## MrsMozart (11 January 2021)

Oh ouch! I'm sorry that's happened. We have one that I can't take things from, I have to do bright distracting voice then high value treat. He's getting better. And this is despite being treated the same as his brother who I can do anything with, though this one will protect anybody and worries if anyone is hurt.


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## JennBags (11 January 2021)

I usually do do a swap rather than a take, but stupidly didn't last night!  Was about to go to bed and was being too lazy to go and get something to swap.  I have also used Juno to demonstrate sit and take a treat to lure him away too.
I've been training "leave it" and "out" but he's only just starting and whilst he's doing brilliantly in the training sessions, it's too early for him to do it under normal conditions yet.  I did say"out" to him and he considered dropping it, but the treasure was just too tempting for him.  He's obviously had a lot of things taken off him in the past as he runs and hides as soon as you see him with something he shouldn't have.



CorvusCorax said:



			JB I was going to post this earlier but thought I was being a negative nelly...I personally would get him off the bed until he understands some ground rules.
For me this is a dog that needs really clear boundaries and handling for the next few weeks if not months.
No freedom in the house to raid bins etc, taken from one place to another by you, you control all resources..food, exercise, interactions with other dogs, where he sleeps, you make all the decisions, everything comes from you.
This IMO would be the fairest thing and if you put the work in now, you will have a much happier dog.
It's not for everyone and your OH has to be on board but it will help him in the long run and it's helped a fair few people in the past, including me.
		
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Thanks CC, not a negative nelly at all, all input (especially from someone as experienced and knowledgeable as you) is alwasy welcome.  I wondered if someone would comment about him being on the bed, that genuinely almost never happens, he sleeps in his own bed on the floor and I don't normally allow him to come up.  I have considered tethering him to me but I'm not sure I could cope with it, I'm struggling enough at the moment, he is in the same room as me nearly all the time, I was just cleaning my teeth when he nipped into the bin.


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## Sandstone1 (11 January 2021)

Can you have pots of treats around the house, out of dogs reach of course so that you can use them to swap with him if he gets items he should not  have.


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## CorvusCorax (11 January 2021)

I don't mean with you at all times but I do mean you need to make the crate a positive place ASAP/getting 'place' trained quickly and you take him everywhere on a lead at your side.
If he likes the car crate, there's no problem popping him in there for some time out in the interim. I'd also speak to him very sparingly...your voice/words/commands need to mean something.
He's either resting or training or going for a walk but it is all controlled by you.
At the moment he shouldn't have the opportunity to have a 'just'.

It's not forever and it will help you all.

Being possessive is strongly genetic, it doesn't have to mean he's had stuff taken off him in the past, I've seen very young puppies with high value items growl when approached by humans or their siblings, it's just nature.


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## Karran (11 January 2021)

Ouch - was just going to say that it sounded like it was all going in the right direction and then seen that last post! Naughty boy! Hope you are ok?


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## JennBags (11 January 2021)

it's nothing more than a scratch really Karran, thanks for asking.  He was so upset afterwards, he really knew he shouldn't have done it.


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## cbmcts (11 January 2021)

These unconfident, bright dogs really do try your patience don't they? I've been bitten (more than once, you think I'd learn!) by not thinking through the consequences of taking stuff from the rescues. The difference to me is do they bite to back you off and not come back for a second go? I can live with that even if I don't like it and it sounds like that is what Rocky did. I wonder if he's got into trouble, shouted at and possibly even hit for thieving which brings out the nervousness? It's still amazes me how different my rescues have been to the pups or even the rehomed from one home dogs I've had. The issues are real, will possibly be there in the background forever but, to date have always been manageable and both you and the dog adapt to each other. If Mr JB has only had pups, he must be thinking that you've imported a savage beast because it's such a shock to be bitten and/or realise that your dog might do that. 

I do agree with CC that a boot camp/ Nothing in life is free (NILF) regime might work. Give him a chance to settle with really low expectations but also having to earn any attention. Strong boundaries reassure a nervy dog IME and it might also reassure Mr JB if he can ignore him a bit. At this point I'd normally throw the treat a distance rather than ask for a leave to avoid having my hand too near to teeth.  To give you a laugh, Reggie wil steal for attention as much as anything but also has a tariff of treats to hand stuff over starting with a standard treat for a dishcloth, moving onto dried chicken for most things - bits of the garden brought indoors usually - but a sock will only be handed over for a whole sausage! He is very disappointed if I ignore him or just let him have whatever he is got and will spend ages showing me what he has in the hope I'll do swapsies


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## JennBags (11 January 2021)

Christ's he's a devil dog tonight.  He seriously might have to go back.


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## JennBags (11 January 2021)

Hes been walked, he's been fed, he's done some training, he's had a play.  All he's doing is running round,jumping and barking at the back door,.  Tried having him on a lead next to me, just kept jumping up, trying to run off and barking.  I've been home almost 2 hours and he hasn't stopped.  Getting to the end of my tether.


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## PapaverFollis (11 January 2021)

Can you get him to lie down on a mat or a bed, as a "settle" exercise?  Or can you go pop him in the crate in the car for a bit? See if that switches him off a bit.  I don't really know but don't want to read and run either.


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## Pearlsasinger (11 January 2021)

I would pop him in the crate in the car for a while to give everybody a bit of peace.  If he likes the car crate, can you bring it in and use it in the house for his safe space until he is more settled generally?


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## JennBags (11 January 2021)

I was considering putting him in the car, he's now settled down.  PF I tried settling him on his bed, he'd stay for about a minute and then leap up again.
Oh I spoke to soon, he's got up again, he has to be tired, he's hardly slept all day.


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## JennBags (11 January 2021)

The car crate is too heavy to move around, I'll have to get another large one for home, the one we have here is too small for him.


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## PapaverFollis (11 January 2021)

Go pop him in the car to give yourself a bit of a break. Have a cup of tea.


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## PapaverFollis (11 January 2021)

When you bring him back in... keep him on lead, have his bed next to your chair and a tub of kibble discreetly in reach.  Sit down in the chair and ignore him. If he looks at his bed calmly place a piece of kibble on the bed.  Do that everyone he even looks at the bed for a bit. Keep all movement slow and calm. Place each piece of kibble quietly down.  Start expecting him to be stood on the bed before the next bit goes down.  Vary delivery times.  2 seconds, 10 seconds, 7 seconds, 20 seconds.  Don't look at him or otherwise interact.  Do this for 5 minutes or so. Then ignore. If he starts going bonkers again I would, personally, pop him back in his car safe space for another time out. Before trying again. Others might disagree and I'm happy to be wrong there but that's what is in my toolkit and tolerance level.   I would hope that eventually he'll either exhaust himself or get through to the relaxed place.


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## PapaverFollis (11 January 2021)

The deaf border puppy we fostered for a while literally had to be in a crate covered up like a canary in order for him to be able to switch off at all at first.  He was only about 10 weeks old but was "sports bred" and hyped to the nines.  Even looking at anything seemed to send him over threshold!  We got him straightened out enough for life eventually.  He was always going to be wired but he did learn to control himself a bit.  But it was all just very calm training, and training to be calm, and limited stimulation for quite a long time.


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## Sandstone1 (11 January 2021)

You may have tried this already but a stuffed kong may help calm him down?  chewing can help them settle, a adaptil diffuser or spray, have you thought about zylkene tablets?  they may help.


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## BBP (11 January 2021)

Sounds like you really do have your hands full, and although what you are saying is exactly what I expected he would be like when you said you were taking him on, it’s very different to actually be faced with it. I found my dog very hard as an adolescent, it was exhausting, and he didn’t have any history, just his genetics and my circumstances. Obviously so worthwhile now, and such a wonderful dog, but I get how relentless it can feel. I’m not experienced enough to offer advice, just a sympathetic ear. 

I guess the only bit I can try to give is watch your own heart rate and stress, my dog is absolutely tuned in to mine, so I have to consciously calm everything, slow my heart rate, slow my speech, drop the pitch of my voice. Everything is slow and steady. Just saying ‘hi’ in a bright voice sparks him up, so I keep myself super cool unless I want to spark him up. It’s been good for me too. I figured if I can’t control my stress and emotional response to what he is doing, how on earth can I expect him to control his emotional responses, I’m the rational human after all. I’m much more emotionally stable as a person since I worked all this out, as I can’t afford to get stressed out!)


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## CorvusCorax (11 January 2021)

OK let me break this down as I don't think I am making myself clear. Pardon my brevity.

- This dog sounds like he consistently makes poor decisions. From that I deduce he is not mentally strong enough to make his own decisions and cope with the consequences, therefore you must step in.

- He Should Not Be Given The Opportunity To Run Around Barking and being a knob. No 'playing', no crazy stuff, his world is going to have to get very small and boring and low energy for a while. Agree re giving him stuff to chew.

Fair: This is your world, here are your boundaries. You do not get the opportunity to make the wrong decisions and then stress at the consequences, as I will be making them all for you, you don't have to worry about a thing.

Unfair: Have all the freedom you want. Do what you like. HEY NOT THAT MUCH FREEDOM, DON'T EAT THAT, STOP BARKING/GOING MAD.
And the more freedom he has, the more frustrated and likely to lash out he will be when you decide for whatever reason, he cannot have it. He will not be able to understand the difference/when you're fed up.

- Yes it's joyless and boring but it is what I believe this dog needs. Much as dogs are there for our enjoyment, we have a responsibility to help them enjoy life too 
and sometimes that can be a long and boring process.


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## MrsMozart (11 January 2021)

I echo the something to chew. 

Our stressier one gets worked up and takes it out on his brother usually. If he has a safe chew then that's what gets it and he has focus and calms. 

Taking on rescues can be relentless and boring and knackering. The need to keep up the calm and low energy is tiring; then when it's not all going to even a close approximation to plan then it can feel like a kick in the teeth, even though you know it's not personal in that moment it feels like it is but you have to keep the calm firm persona going.


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## Karran (11 January 2021)

CC is right. The dog is bubbling over. You need to slooooow everything down.

I had it explained to me as a bucket with a hole. And each dog has a different size bucket and hole. Everything that happens over a day goes into the bucket. Mrs Spaniel has a childs bucket but a large hole so she maintains a relatively calm manner unless flyball or agility is involved.

Miss Collie, has a thimble bucket with a tiny hole. It doesn't take much to overflow it - a day perhaps with a dpd delivery, then meeting the wrong dog in the park along with seeing a jogger and she cant empty her bucket, the hole is too small to do so herself, and the only way she can manage it is by chase, vaulting off of furniture, destroying things. My job (and yours) is to manage this with calming activities, mat work, sniff work, slow heel work, long lasting chews etc.

Rocky will be a different dog once you figure out what helps calm him.


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## Pearlsasinger (11 January 2021)

A psychologist once said to me 'all behavior is in the service of the reduction of tension'.  He was talking about children, of course but the same applies to all living things.  Rocky is very stressed and the only way for him to reduce the tension, is to race around etc.  His (new) people can help him by keeping stress levels as low as possible.


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## JennBags (11 January 2021)

Thank you everyone.


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## CorvusCorax (11 January 2021)

PapaverFollis said:



			When you bring him back in... keep him on lead, have his bed next to your chair and a tub of kibble discreetly in reach.  Sit down in the chair and ignore him. If he looks at his bed calmly place a piece of kibble on the bed.  Do that everyone he even looks at the bed for a bit. Keep all movement slow and calm. Place each piece of kibble quietly down.  Start expecting him to be stood on the bed before the next bit goes down.  Vary delivery times.  2 seconds, 10 seconds, 7 seconds, 20 seconds.  Don't look at him or otherwise interact.  Do this for 5 minutes or so. Then ignore. If he starts going bonkers again I would, personally, pop him back in his car safe space for another time out. Before trying again. Others might disagree and I'm happy to be wrong there but that's what is in my toolkit and tolerance level.   I would hope that eventually he'll either exhaust himself or get through to the relaxed place.
		
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I do place/bed training with my puppy on a house line. So there's no opportunity for her to go anywhere. I either say the word, click, throw the food on it (there's no point in her getting up, the food is always on the bed).
Or, I sit on the floor beside the bed and just stroke her slowly and/or let her hold a Kong on a rope.
This evening when she started getting above herself/bitey (think overtired toddler) she got popped back into crate for a rest.


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## Mynstrel (12 January 2021)

JennBags said:



			Hes been walked, he's been fed, he's done some training, he's had a play.  All he's doing is running round,jumping and barking at the back door,.  Tried having him on a lead next to me, just kept jumping up, trying to run off and barking.  I've been home almost 2 hours and he hasn't stopped.  Getting to the end of my tether.
		
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Sounds like a combination of over stimulated and over tired. Enforced downtime and rest sounds a good plan generally to stop him getting into that sort of state. If he doesn't like a crate in the house is there a different room he'd settle in on his own for his rest times if you don't want to or can't use the car all the time? 

Our lad is a horrible grumpy mess if he doesn't have a sleep after tea every night, and the more you try to do with him the worse he gets, you just have to make him settle until he comes down again. He's worse and gets to that point quicker if he's had a busy day or days leading up to it so I just treat him like a toddler and put him to bed when he's been busy/excited so he doesn't get tired and silly


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## JennBags (12 January 2021)

Today hasn't been too bad.  At the office every time I went on a Zoom, he started barking, I tried putting him in his crate and put a blanket on top but he just got louder and louder so I had to end my meeting!
This evening we got home and he immediately was full of it, so after his dinner I just made him lie down and kept feeding him kibble/treats. Then got Mr JB to take over while I sorted dinner out.  He's now attached to me getting regular treats all the time he's lying down.  When he gets up, I call him and get him to lie down again.  He almost fell asleep earlier but then woke again.
Do I just keep feeding him treats all night?


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## CorvusCorax (12 January 2021)

I'd just use his normal kibble and feed him that way. He doesn't eat unless he's calm and paying attention to you. I'd have put him in the car (if it was there!) for the Zoom thing. If I'm Zooming pup is in crate in hall with a Kong (she doesn't need it now) and either TV or radio on.
You can't train a dog and work at the same time so don't set yourself up to fail.


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## Cinnamontoast (12 January 2021)

JennBags said:



			Do I just keep feeding him treats all night?
		
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It should be from his daily allocation, so no big feed, drip feed his tea in this way. Then he’ll see that he only gets food from you, building great associations and he’s relying on you, there’s no food in the bowl so it’s not an ‘anonymous“ feed that has nothing to do with you.


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## TheresaW (12 January 2021)

I don’t know if this is relevant, but when we first brought Bo home, he followed me absolutely everywhere. I couldn’t even go for a wee, he would sit at bathroom door and cry.  We started me taking Luna to horses with me, and OH would walk Bo out and about on his own. I’d say he’s still more “my” dog than OH’s, but it’s only in little ways now. If I go to bed first, he’ll come up with me, whereas will stay downstairs if OH goes first. Same when we get up of a morning. He’ll only go downstairs if OH is up first when he hears him getting their breakfast.

I’m sure I read either on here or somewhere else, that Collies can develop obsessions?


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## JennBags (12 January 2021)

At last! 

__
		https://flic.kr/p/2krybBQ


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## Karran (12 January 2021)

Hurray!!!


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## JennBags (12 January 2021)

CC I didn't realise he'd get so loud while I was Zooming, or I would have put him in the car.  I'll do that tomorrow.
Its been a peaceful evening but he's eaten a lot of kibble!   All feed is now going to be by hand, for him lying down and being calm.  No other training, this will be our focus from now on.
He's not interested in Kongs, or chews unfortunately.


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## Pearlsasinger (12 January 2021)

Success!  Well done!

And you have a plan, that's even better.


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## JennBags (12 January 2021)

I do have a plan, thanks to all the kind people on here, if it weren't for all of you I don't know what we'd have done.  I know there will continue ro be ups and downs but every day my toolkit expands and I find out something new.


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## MrsMozart (13 January 2021)

You're doing such a good job with him. 

It's definitely not easy and can feel sometimes like it's not getting anywhere, but as D1 has been reminding me lately, even three steps forward and two back means we're ahead a step.

If probably add 'consistency', so keep everything the same and he doesn't have to get wired wondering what's coming next. It helps our stressier one. Over time we've been able to become more flexible.


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## Mynstrel (13 January 2021)

Well done. That picture is a huge win for you! Can I ask though how you're feeding him for calm without Juno getting in on the act? That's the very thing I struggle with for mine and you're managing it much better than I am 🙂


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## JennBags (13 January 2021)

Mynstrel said:



			Well done. That picture is a huge win for you! Can I ask though how you're feeding him for calm without Juno getting in on the act? That's the very thing I struggle with for mine and you're managing it much better than I am 🙂
		
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With difficulty!  Juno is also getting kibble at the same time, there's not really any other option without shutting her out all evening which I am not going to do.  She does go off to her crate which is behind the sofa for a sleep after a while, and whilst they do both get possessive over food, as long as they're both getting something they are OK.


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## Mynstrel (13 January 2021)

JennBags said:



			With difficulty!  Juno is also getting kibble at the same time, there's not really any other option without shutting her out all evening which I am not going to do.  She does go off to her crate which is behind the sofa for a sleep after a while, and whilst they do both get possessive over food, as long as they're both getting something they are OK.
		
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Thanks JB 🙂


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## Clodagh (13 January 2021)

JennBags said:



			At last! 

__
		https://flic.kr/p/2krybBQ


Click to expand...

I want to see the corresponding photo of the humans, are you crashed too!?


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## JennBags (13 January 2021)

I'm afraid things escalated again today and he went for Mr JB, bit him quite badly.  We can't keep him, he's making us all unhappy.  I've phoned his former owner who is going to make the decision as to whether she will have him back or if we are going to take him to the vets, I don't think he's a safe dog and I wouldn't want to pass him onto someone else, we've maybe not done everything absolutely right but we've not done anything to warrant the aggression that he's shown.
I've put him in the car for 20 minutes so we can have some peace but feel really guilty for it.


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## Amymay (13 January 2021)

Sorry JB.  Wise decision xx


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## elizabeth1 (13 January 2021)

Amymay said:



			Sorry JB.  Wise decision xx
		
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Agree.
Wonderful old horseman I knew would take in difficult horses for owners
He said after two weeks he would give them one of three choices
Good horse problem sorted he should be ok for you
Or 
Good horse but better suited to a professional home or a more active life than you want . I can sell him if you wish
Or
This horse is dangerous to ride/ handle. I recommend PTS.
sometimes option 3 is the only option x


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## Sandstone1 (13 January 2021)

Has he had a full check up with the vet?  Just to rule out any physical problems which may be contributing to his problems..


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## Karran (13 January 2021)

Poor boy. And poor you. It's a better decision than moving him on and confusing the poor sod any more. Having been there, It's a brave decision to make and one I've also agonised over.


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## Clodagh (13 January 2021)

The brave and right thing to do. Imo.
I hope the former owners agree to the vets.


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## TheresaW (13 January 2021)

I really feel for you JB. I will say, when we got Bo, we were told, if it didn’t work out, we were to take him back before passing him on. He wasn’t anywhere near as bad as Rocky, but a few times I felt “what have we done”? Quietly, I was asked, rather than take him back, would we please PTS instead.


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## skinnydipper (13 January 2021)

TheresaW said:



			Quietly, I was asked, rather than take him back, would we please PTS instead.
		
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By whom?


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## TheresaW (13 January 2021)

skinnydipper said:



			By whom?
		
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Someone that knew where he’d come from and what he’d be going back to.


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## PapaverFollis (13 January 2021)

I'm so sorry, Jenn.


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## skinnydipper (13 January 2021)

I would suggest contacting the rescue who rehomed him to the previous owner.

Some dogs have a dual chip and the details of the rescue remain on the database along with those of the new owner.  Vets should scan before euthanising.

See Tuk's law.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1349008/dog-news-Tuks-law-put-dog-down


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## Pearlsasinger (13 January 2021)

I'm sorry JB, no-one can say that you haven't tried.  Sometimes their early experiences just don't set them up properly to live successfully in a family  situation, or anywhere else really - and that certainly isn't your fault.


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## splashgirl45 (13 January 2021)

so sorry jb, have been following this post and it seemed like things were improving after all of your hard work...sometimes they cant be fixed but you have given him a fair trial and he wont know, he will just go to sleep...hugs for you at this difficult time


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## MrsMozart (13 January 2021)

I'm sorry lass.

I hope MrJB is okay.


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## blodwyn1 (13 January 2021)

I am sorry to read this but  I could see this might happen. We managed to keep our golden cocker til he was seven but by then I had become disabled and needed a groom. When he attacked for the last time we decided to call it a day as if he had disfigured a young girl I would never have forgiven myself. We miss him everyday but it was like a great weight had been lifted from us


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## Karran (13 January 2021)

The lady who ran my first attempt at taking Miss Collie to obedience class suggested PTS "when you get bored of trying to fix her". Was also suggested by the behaviorist I got out.

My collie sounds exactly the same from what JB has posted and I know that if she was in a decent rescue instead of me she would still be there now a year and a half later being rehabbed. A bad one would farm her out and she would grow worse and worse as Rocky has until this would be her only option.
I wouldn't send back to the rescue on that basis that they might farm him out again. I can suggest a very decent well respected in agility and flyball circuits border collie rescue but that's not my call, its JB's and I think she's made the best one in ringing the vets.


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## Pearlsasinger (13 January 2021)

skinnydipper said:



			I would suggest contacting the rescue who rehomed him to the previous owner.

Some dogs have a dual chip and the details of the rescue remain on the database along with those of the new owner.  Vets should scan before euthanising.

See Tuk's law.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1349008/dog-news-Tuks-law-put-dog-down

Click to expand...


That annoys me tbh, there are far worse things than can happen to a dog than pts.  Being passed around various homes unsuccessfully, or spending months if not years in kennels being 2 of those things.  I really dislike a professional, calm pts being compared to being beaten to death or involved in dog-fighting.


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## skinnydipper (13 January 2021)

Pearlsasinger said:



			That annoys me tbh, there are far worse things than can happen to a dog than pts.  Being passed around various homes unsuccessfully, or spending months if not years in kennels being 2 of those things.  *I really dislike a professional, calm pts being compared to being beaten to death or involved in dog-fighting*.
		
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What?

I think you missed the point by a mile.

The vet should scan before PTS.  When he/she does scan,  JB might not be the registered keeper on the chip; or she may be but the rescue may also be registered and will need to be notified and consent to PTS.

I have suggested contacting the rescue.


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## skinnydipper (13 January 2021)

TheresaW said:



			Someone that knew where he’d come from and what he’d be going back to.
		
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I don't want to derail JB's thread when she will obviously be very upset at how things have turned out.

But - remind me, Bo's problem is what exactly?  Leash reactivity?


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## JennBags (13 January 2021)

Thank you all. Currently in the a&e car park as Mr JB's arm has steadily been getting worse and 111 said he should come.  We are of course agonising over whether we've given him enough of a chance but I've seen quite a few early signs of aggression, as well as the time he attacked me and this afternoon really was the last straw. 
Mr JB has been in tears most of the evening, he feels so devastated about it and blames himself, but I'd rather he was bitten than a random stranger.  When Rocky escaped the other day and one of our neighbours caught him, I was very concerned that he'd bite then.
Waiting for previous owner to confirm but I don't think he should go back there, the more we talk about it and think it over, I know in my heart this is the right decision for all of us.


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## Clodagh (13 January 2021)

skinnydipper said:



			I don't want to derail JB's thread when she will obviously be very upset at how things have turned out.

But - remind me, Bo's problem is what exactly?  Leash reactivity?
		
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Possibly an unecessary derail as Bo is nothing to do with this thread. Maybe pm TW, or start a new thread? And I know I'm not the forum police but trying not to be insensitive.


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## JennBags (13 January 2021)

Clodagh said:



			Possibly an unecessary derail as Bo is nothing to do with this thread. Maybe pm TW, or start a new thread? And I know I'm not the forum police but trying not to be insensitive.
		
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Thanks C but don't worry I'm a tough cookie, if it helps anyone else who might be reading this with a similar situation then I have no issue with it.


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## skinnydipper (13 January 2021)

Clodagh said:



			Possibly an unecessary derail as Bo is nothing to do with this thread. Maybe pm TW, or start a new thread? And I know I'm not the forum police but trying not to be insensitive.
		
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It isn't me that keeps dragging Bo's name onto the thread.


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## Amymay (13 January 2021)

To be blunt JB, you’ve tried - it’s not worked, through absolutely no fault of your own.  And you’re  *absolutely *making the right decision.


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## JennBags (13 January 2021)

Amymay said:



			To be blunt JB, you’ve tried - it’s not worked, through absolutely no fault of your own.  And you’re  *absolutely *making the right decision.
		
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Thanks, it just feels like it's so quick to make such a big decision.


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## TheresaW (13 January 2021)

skinnydipper said:



			It isn't me that keeps dragging Bo's name onto the thread.
		
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I’m sorry you feel I was dragging him into the thread. We can only try and share experiences which might help. Yes, he has leash reactivity, but there were many smaller issues as well, which we have been able to overcome luckily.

I apologise JB if anything I’ve posited hasn’t been helpful. I don’t pretend or otherwise to be an expert.


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## Amymay (13 January 2021)

JennBags said:



			Thanks, it just feels like it's so quick to make such a big decision.
		
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Not really.  You didn’t sign up to an aggressive dog.

And I suspect that is the reason his ‘owner’ wanted to rehome him.


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## Pearlsasinger (13 January 2021)

skinnydipper said:



			What?

I think you missed the point by a mile.

The vet should scan before PTS.  When he/she does scan,  JB might not be the registered keeper on the chip; or she may be but the rescue may also be registered and will need to be notified and consent to PTS.

I have suggested contacting the rescue.
		
Click to expand...


No, I didn't miss the point.  The article quoted the MP who introduced the law as a Private Members Bill and likened pts by a vet to being beaten to death.  I am afraid this 'fluffy bunny' no animal should ever be pts under any circumstances attitude drives me mad.  Is the rescue the official owner or did the person who gave Rocky to JB become the owner?  If the rescue were the owner why did JB get him from the previous owner?  I have no objection to the vet scanning for a chip but what exactly do you think they will find?  If the rescue is a responsible organisation why didn't they sort out his behavioural problems before rehoming him?  It's not as if the problems have only surfaced with JB, is it?


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## Karran (13 January 2021)

JennBags said:



			Thanks, it just feels like it's so quick to make such a big decision.
		
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If it involves a trip to A & E. It is not at all quick to make that decision! It is the right thing to do.


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## JennBags (13 January 2021)

TheresaW said:



			I’m sorry you feel I was dragging him into the thread. We can only try and share experiences which might help. Yes, he has leash reactivity, but there were many smaller issues as well, which we have been able to overcome luckily.

I apologise JB if anything I’ve posited hasn’t been helpful. I don’t pretend or otherwise to be an expert.
		
Click to expand...

Nothing to apologise for TW, all experiences have been helpful and I enjoy hearing about your journey with Bo x


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## skinnydipper (13 January 2021)

Pearlsasinger said:



			Is the rescue the official owner or did the person who gave Rocky to JB become the owner? If the rescue were the owner why did JB get him from the previous owner?
		
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I have no idea.




skinnydipper said:



			I hope it works out for you and Rocky but if it doesn't, there is no shame in that. He is a young dog with many years ahead of him and it would not be good for _you_ to be stressed for the next 10 years or more.

If you feel he needs to be rehomed, please contact the Rescue that he came from rather than try to rehome him yourself. *There is often a clause in the adoption agreement that the dog must be returned to them.*

Click to expand...


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## Pearlsasinger (13 January 2021)

skinnydipper said:



			I have no idea.
		
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Surely if there had been that clause in the previous family's agreement, he would have gone back to them, rather than being assed onto JB?


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## FinnishLapphund (13 January 2021)

I'm so sorry that it has come to this, and I hope it doesn't take too long before the A/E have been able to fix Mr JB.
I presume that the owner who gave him to you is the current legal owner, and thereby have the right to give you permission to euthanise him, or decide what else should happen to him.

According to what I've read about Tuk's Law, the problem in Tuk's case was that someone who was not the registered keeper (owner?) took him to the veterinarian, and had him euthanised, without permission from the registered owner of the dog.
I don't know about how it works according to UK law, but as I understand it, in Sweden, regardless if a rescue is also registered on a chip, or if there is two chips where one is registered on a rescue, the current legal owner is still the only one who have the right to decide if the dog should be euthanised, taken back to them or the rescue.

Even if you've signed an agreement saying that you must return the dog to the Swedish rescue, it is actually up to the legal owner if they wish to abide by that or not.

As long as there isn't animal abuse involved. But wanting to euthanise a dog that have attacked, and bitten a person so badly that a trip to the A/E is required, a dog who spends too much of his time being over stressed (and whilst he's in the over stressed mode he's not a happy dog), is not the same as animal abuse.

Again, I'm so sorry to hear that it turned out like this JennBags. You tried your best, but sometimes there is just too much mental damage to fix them, no matter how much you wish it was possible.
Judging by the pictures, he at least had some lovely moments together with you.


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## SusieT (13 January 2021)

Unless there is an extremely experienced kind collie, possibly behaviourist home who is used to dealing with highly stressed and motivated dogs who will bite when pushed (and to be fair to the dog there are some potential red flags here in the management of this dog in this home that it may be that a very experienced training home would not make - access to beds/bedrooms/sofas where the risk of a bite incident being set off is high due to so many factors with a new dog + one owner not fully on board with having a risky dog in the house- though they clearly didn't create the behaviour which is from previous life etc.) the kindest thing is likely to pts this dog. 
Returning him to a home who wasn't coping is as you rightly say not appropriate. 
Given that he has been through 5 homes unless a really really committed suitable home can be found there can be no other option. And even then consideration should be given to public safety as he is known to bite. I do hope the bite is not too serious. 

I wonder if the previous owners told the full truth on his temperament as it sounds like you/partner wouldn't have knowingly taken on a biter.


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## EventingMum (13 January 2021)

So sorry to hear this, I think you are making a brave decision and I hope Mr JB is ok and heals quickly. 

My BiL had a farm-bred collie from a puppy and encountered similar problems. Their previous dog had looked a little like a BC although he wasn't (Spanniel x various other things eg a mongrel!) which encouraged them to get the collie. They were not prepared for a high energy, quick brained, nervous dog at all. They tried really hard, engaged a trainer and a behaviourist but things continued to deteriorate to the point they couldn't touch him and they decided to pts. The vet did a final exam and discovered an especially sore point on his shoulder, although he wasn't lame, a pm showed he had a massive tumour. Whether or not that was causing all the problems they don't know but it certainly wouldn't have helped and the vet said it would have been untreatable. I'm not saying this is the case with Rocky but sometimes there can be other unknown issues adding to the problems.


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## Karran (14 January 2021)

Hope Mr JB is ok this morning.


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## MrsMozart (14 January 2021)

Karran said:



			Hope Mr JB is ok this morning.
		
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Echo this lass.


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## Shady (14 January 2021)

Me too Jenn. Do hope Mr JB is ok. You as well as I can only imagine how hard this is for you both.
I haven't commented but I have followed closely and I would honestly say PTS would be the responsible and kindest thing to do.


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## FinnishLapphund (14 January 2021)

I'm another one who hopes that  Mr JB, and yourself, under the circumstances, are as well as possible today.


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## SAujla (14 January 2021)

Sorry to hear this, hope Mr JB is okay. You've certainly tried so much with him, he's just had a bad start in life which put him on a terrible path he's not capable of getting off


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## BlackRider (14 January 2021)

So sorry to hear this outcome, been following your progress.

Hope Mr JB is ok and hope everything goes quickly and smoothly - you are making the right decision xxx


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## PapaverFollis (14 January 2021)

I hope hospital can get MrJB sorted.

Some dogs aren't wired for life with humans even with the best of upbringings.


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## Cinnamontoast (14 January 2021)

How is Mr JB?

I was afraid this would happen, I just thought it would be you that would be bitten. He doesn’t sound like he:ll ever fit and you’d forever be concerned he’d do something. I’m so sorry, J.


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## Bellasophia (14 January 2021)

Jenn ..this is the hardest decision to make,but for what you have tried and done for this dog,it would be unfair to pass him on...he is dangerous and you are making the correct decision.You could not have done more for Rocky.
For those that criticize her decision..skinny dipper 
 and susie......unless you offer to be the divine light  ie sixth home,adoption for this poor ,beautiful dog,step down and let the people who have stepped up to the task see this through.


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## JennBags (14 January 2021)

Thank you all.  Mr JB is OK, they flushed his wound out and gave him antibiotics, they said they wouldn't stitch it as better to leave it open in case of any infection.  He's very upset about it, is suffering from a bit of shock and stress from the whole situation. 

I discussed with the previous owner last night, and today with the vet at length.  The vet also has a border collie so understands their special needs, I told her what he'd done and she agreed with me that it wasn't simply a behavioural issue and that the aggression meant that there wasn't really any other option.  They didn't come to that decision lightly.

Yes I am sure I could have passed him onto yet another home but I'm certain that would mess him up further and he would end up really hurting someone.  When I remember that day he flew at me, it was terrifying and nothing I did got him off me until he was satisfied.


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## TheresaW (14 January 2021)

Glad mr JB is ok. Rocky won’t be able to hurt anyone else, or be hurt himself, it’s the right thing to do. Thinking of you xx


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## skinnydipper (14 January 2021)

Bellasophia said:



			For those that criticize her decision..skinny dipper
		
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I have *not at any time* criticised JB's decision.

*You owe me an apology*.



skinnydipper said:



			I know it happens on the forum but I am never comfortable with, or feel it appropriate for,  a random stranger to suggest that someone euthanise their pet, for whatever reason - behavioural or medical.

That is for the owner to decide, with advice and guidance from their vet.
		
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## Lindylouanne (14 January 2021)

JB I’m glad Mr JB is ok although it is not surprising he is in a bit of shock. Having been in a similar position with my Red Setter I know you have made the correct decision. Take care of yourself xx


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## SAujla (14 January 2021)

It sounds less like a decision to be made and more of an only option remaining. I wish you the very best. Naturally in the future you might start remembering the good moments and question what was done but stay strong. You have already gone above and beyond for him and given him every chance, he's got a good heart but mentally it's just too much for him


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## Pearlsasinger (14 January 2021)

Poor Mr JB! I'm so glad he's doing ok.  

IMHO it's a good job that Rocky was passed to you, so that you could take the responsible decision for him.  You have saved him from what could have been a terrible future, being passed around and causing havoc in an awful lot of lives.


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## Karran (14 January 2021)

Pearlsasinger said:



			Poor Mr JB! I'm so glad he's doing ok. 

IMHO it's a good job that Rocky was passed to you, so that you could take the responsible decision for him.  You have saved him from what could have been a terrible future, being passed around and causing havoc in an awful lot of lives.
		
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This a million times. You tried and then did the absolute best thing for him. Be kind to yourselves and don't blame yourself. It sounds like you have been the only responsible people in the short time that he's known.


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## Bellasophia (14 January 2021)

Skinny .re..l.https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1349008/dog-news-Tuks-law-put-dog-down
no apology coming...you quoted this “ tuks  law”link above,  regarding a healthy dog being put down inappropriately.....etc..
....since this was so out of context regarding Rocky,I included you with susie,since I think Jenn has quite enough to deal with...end of.

re reading the last quoted post you made to me above..I think you’ve rethought things and are now supporting Jenn..hope so,she’s no other option.
So bygones.?


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## skinnydipper (14 January 2021)

Bellasophia said:



			Skinny .re..l.https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1349008/dog-news-Tuks-law-put-dog-down
no apology coming...you quoted this “ tuks  law”link above,  regarding a healthy dog being put down inappropriately.....etc..
....since this was so out of context regarding Rocky,I included you with susie,since I think Jenn has quite enough to deal with...end of.
		
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I was making JB aware of Tuk's Law (and you too it seems, and probably everyone else reading the thread), because she may have had difficulties when she went to the vet.  When Rocky was scanned it may have been a dual registered chip and the rescue would have to have been informed.

Now I watched your antics with Lev and said nothing but I have strong views about it.  Please don't get in my face.


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## JennBags (14 January 2021)

skinnydipper said:



			I was making JB aware of Tuk's Law (and you too it seems, and probably everyone else reading the thread), because she may have had difficulties when she went to the vet.  When Rocky was scanned it may have been a dual registered chip and the rescue would have to have been informed.
		
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Not that it's relevant anyhow, but I don't think Tuk's Law is in force as yet is it from what I can gather.  It's been approved to be passed into law, but the law hasn't yet been made.
I don't want this thread to get derailed into arguments, but I must say I felt you were the only person* not being supportive of my decision, whether you mean to come across this way or not I don't know, but that was certainly the impression that I was left with.

*I've no idea what SusieT said or didn't say as she's on UI but doubtless it wasn't pleasant.


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## SpottyTB (14 January 2021)

JB - Just caught up on all of this. Glad to hear MR JB is ok - but what a shock. I know after having Freddie how an aggressive dog can really change your view on dogs and also create an unhappy household. My dogs never switched off, always on alert the entire time he was here. 

Big hugs, you did all you could for Rocky. Right decision made!


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## Smitty (14 January 2021)

W



JennBags said:



			Not that it's relevant anyhow, but I don't think Tuk's Law is in force as yet is it from what I can gather.  It's been approved to be passed into law, but the law hasn't yet been made.
I don't want this thread to get derailed into arguments, but I must say I felt you were the only person* not being supportive of my decision, whether you mean to come across this way or not I don't know, but that was certainly the impression that I was left with.

*I've no idea what SusieT said or didn't say as she's on UI but doubtless it wasn't pleasant.
		
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What a horrid decision to have to make but surely the safest thing for all concerned.  Thinking of you.

In defence of SusieT, she was the first to suggest PTS if things got too bad, nothing nasty but supportive.  If you take her off UI for this thread I think you will find her comments made with the best of intentions.


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## JennBags (14 January 2021)

Smitty said:



			W

What a horrid decision to have to make but surely the safest thing for all concerned.  Thinking of you.

In defence of SusieT, she was the first to suggest PTS if things got too bad, nothing nasty but supportive.  If you take her off UI for this thread I think you will find her comments made with the best of intentions.
		
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Thanks and I will take your word for it with SusieT, I apologise to her in that case.


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## Clodagh (14 January 2021)

JennBags said:



			Thanks and I will take your word for it with SusieT, I apologise to her in that case.
		
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I’d leave her on ui, it was still all said in a self righteous and self gratification manner.


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## EventingMum (14 January 2021)

So sorry for you and Mr JB, I hope Juno is giving you cuddles at this sad time. You have been nothing but sensible and responsible throughout this whole saga.


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## On the Hoof (14 January 2021)

I’ve only just caught up with this JB - and am so sorry that you have to go through this. I am glad to hear that Mr JB is ok.  You are doing the right thing by Rocky - never doubt that or yourself on this. I’m just so sad for you both.


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## cbmcts (15 January 2021)

I so sorry to hear this and you both must be devastated. But do remember that PTS is never a welfare issue. You, quite reasonably do not want to live with a dog that will bite hard enough to do damage and never underestimate the stress of having a dog that will bite - I firmly believe that until you've been there, you can't understand. I certainly didn't. It also means a lesser life for the dog - shut away from visitors and people working in the house, limited in where you can walk them, less time off lead, harder to diagnose any issues at the vets and they pick up your stress day in, day out. Sometimes the dog can be managed but if they can't, it's not your failure - it started with the breeder and Rocky has been failed by his multiple homes. All probably with the best of intentions but you and your OH have the chance to put an end to the downward spiral. That's the brave, very hard, so hard thing to do but he will be at peace with no fear, no need to defend himself, no more been moved on. Be kind to yourselves.


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## JennBags (15 January 2021)

cbmcts said:



			I so sorry to hear this and you both must be devastated. But do remember that PTS is never a welfare issue. You, quite reasonably do not want to live with a dog that will bite hard enough to do damage and never underestimate the stress of having a dog that will bite - I firmly believe that until you've been there, you can't understand. I certainly didn't. It also means a lesser life for the dog - shut away from visitors and people working in the house, limited in where you can walk them, less time off lead, harder to diagnose any issues at the vets and they pick up your stress day in, day out. Sometimes the dog can be managed but if they can't, it's not your failure - it started with the breeder and Rocky has been failed by his multiple homes. All probably with the best of intentions but you and your OH have the chance to put an end to the downward spiral. That's the brave, very hard, so hard thing to do but he will be at peace with no fear, no need to defend himself, no more been moved on. Be kind to yourselves.
		
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That's really lovely, thank you.  Everyone has been very kind and supportive but your message really makes me feel better about this horrible decision, I've been doubting ourselves  but you've really summed it up.
I've also been thinking that he must have shown this side to his previous home or they would have argued our decision instead of let it happen.


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## Amymay (15 January 2021)

I've also been thinking that he must have shown this side to his previous home or they would have argued our decision instead of let it happen.
		
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I have absolutely no doubt about that 😕


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