# Awful hack on new horse



## Akkalia1 (25 June 2018)

So I bought a new horse just over two weeks ago. I have an ex-racehorse who has come on leaps and bounds and our schooling is going well, but who is never going to be able to hack around where I live due to regular lorries and tractors being on the road. I've tried and tried to get her used to it but it's just not safe. I can't part with her, I love her despite the difficulties we've had and we're starting to really progress with our dressage which we both enjoy.

So I thought I'd look for a second horse - bombproof happy hacker type. After much searching I found one. Lovely nature. When I first tried him I liked him but had some doubts. He is bombproof in all traffic and forward going which I like. But I found him very strong. And almost too forward, think turbo walk, not that happy to stand or slow his pace. I said to the owner that although I liked him I had concerns about how strong he was. She said she didn't find him strong so was confused. She texted me later to say having thought about it, the only time she'd found him strong was when he'd moved yards and his routine was different. She'd put him in a pelham for the first two weeks after a yard move until he settled. She wondered if having a different rider on him (she's had him since he was 3 and he's now 11 and really she's the only one who rode him and they have a close bond) might have caused him to be unsettled and strong. She suggested she bring him for a hack to a local park and I could try again in his pelham. So we did that and it went perfect, not fazed at being in a new place, got off lorry, stood calmly etc. Much more relaxed horse when riding and just a touch on the reins to slow him down. He went over bridges, alongside a roaring dual carriageway, didn't bat an eyelid and we had a lovely canter. I was beaming and agreed to buy him. Apparently he's always been a lead horse, we rode out both times with another horse who was behind us. He also had a standing martingale on for this hack.


So he arrived 2 weeks ago, I gave him the first week to just settle. He got on fab with my mare. I kept my shetland separate as he is known to try and bully other geldings! He was great to do everything with, very straightforward compared to my mare. During the second week I rode him (in his snaffle) a couple of times in the rested part of the field next to the other horses and he was good. I took both horses out of the field to the stables separately when riding them to get them used to going away from each other. There was a bit of whinnying/running about but generally fine. However my mare has been in season the last few days and is like a limpet with the new boy. He is also very stuck to her!! They seem rather in love. However we managed a ride in the field during this time and he was fine. I tried letting the shetland in as he seemed to be glaring at the new boy less. However they went at loggerheads with the shetland coming off worse and who now is not allowed anywhere near my mare. 

Sorry this is long but that's all a bit of background to help give the full picture!

On to the hack. Thought it was time to try a hack. My friend brought her horse down to hack out with me as thought it would be best to try first hack in company. Pelham on. No standing martingale. As soon as we walked out of the yard together he did turbo walk then got very upset, started prancing, did a rear/buck then reversed into a ditch. I got off wondering if I'd put the curb too tight. Didn't really think I had but loosened it off a link just in case. Got on, made it along to the field although he was upset and reversed into a fence at one point. Did a bit of walking round the field with my friends horse. All ok. Headed off again with me in the lead by some distance. Friends horse is also used to being in the front so she kept him well back so there wasn't any issues. Managed all the way out down the road but my horse was doing his turbo walk and whinnying his head off the whole way. Anytime my friend brought her horse anywhere close he was threatening to prance and rear. We got to a gate into an estate where you need to press a button to open the gates. Just managed to make him stand to press button, waited for gates to open then he absolutely launched through them in a fly rear! Carried on, made it to the other side of the estate when you have to press another button for the gates. He wasn't having that and threatened to rear and buck. I turned him in a couple of circles then asked him to approach the button again. At that point he launched forwards in a rear straight into a wire fence with just trees on the other side. I got flattened against his bum, he got tangled in the fence and I had to slide off the back. Miraculously neither of us were injured. At that point I'd had enough and told my friend to go and enjoy a bit of a longer hack and I'd lead mine home. He walked back fine in hand. 

To say I was terrified was an understatement. I've had some hairy hacks on my mare but I don't think even she would have launched herself through a fence with trees on the other side. It was almost as if there'd been a wall there he might have done the same thing! Also marginally concerned that even without the extreme behaviour he may be a horse that won't let another horse walk alongside. My fault for not checking that.

Did I do something wrong do you think? Too soon for a hack with a new person in a new place? He seemed fairly settled generally! Has he maybe just got utterly attached to my mare? Should I have paid more heed to the first time I tried him when he was strong? I want to give him the benefit of the doubt but I was told he'd never reared or bucked, which may well be true, but the reactions he had were extreme to say the least. Maybe I've rushed him but I thought I'd bought a fairly established horse who was going to be my safe hacker and while I might have expected him to be a bit unsettled on his first hack I didn't expect what I got. My friend was gobsmacked at his behaviour.

Sorry it's long but if you've made it to the end thoughts would be appreciated. I'm fairly upset and confused as to how to progress with him. Not exactly thrilled at the prospect of getting back on to be honest.


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## little_critter (25 June 2018)

Hmmm - was this why he was hacked in a standing martingale for the test ride I wonder?


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## ihatework (25 June 2018)

It doesn&#8217;t sound like you have done anything wrong to be honest, although I&#8217;d have got him home and worked him straight away rather than &#8216;letting him settle&#8217;.
I&#8217;d probably ask old owner to come over and ride him out for you / help you with the behaviour .... their response might indicate whether you have a problem or just a blip


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## Akkalia1 (25 June 2018)

Well that's what I wonder. He wasn't in it for the first ride, but was for the second.


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## Akkalia1 (25 June 2018)

ihatework said:



			It doesn&#8217;t sound like you have done anything wrong to be honest, although I&#8217;d have got him home and worked him straight away rather than &#8216;letting him settle&#8217;.
I&#8217;d probably ask old owner to come over and ride him out for you / help you with the behaviour .... their response might indicate whether you have a problem or just a blip
		
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I did think I was going to basically get him going straight away but asked the owners advice as she'd moved him yards a few times. She said she normally gave him a couple of weeks to settle in a new place and suggested I do the same.


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## Akkalia1 (25 June 2018)

I also have spoken to the old owner who says it doesn't sound like him at all. She offered to come and help, but then said she's worried that if she comes over now she might ruin any new bond I'm forming with him as she said they were so close and he was a total mummy's boy. So I said I'd try a bit of riding in the field this week with maybe a couple of very small hacks just me and him and then get back to her at the end of the week. I'm honestly a bit terrified though, we could have both been badly hurt.


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## Ellietotz (25 June 2018)

Sorry to hear this, sounds awful for you.  
Could you perhaps lead him out in hand a few times to get to know the area? Perhaps take your mare with him? I think I would carry on for a couple more weeks and if he is still doing it, then make a decision on whether to keep him or not as he could just be nervous about new area and rider, they aren't robots at the end of the day. I would just spend some time building up trust and see how things go from there. If he hasn't improved, then make the decision to either try to get your money back and return him or investigate the problem to see if it is pain related. Good luck x


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## southerncomfort (25 June 2018)

It *may* just be that he takes a long time to settle and if he's been with his old owner for many years you can understand why he might be feeling worried, scared and anxious.

That said, his behaviour sounds rather extreme even for an unsettled just-moved horse.  Did he behave when you got off?  If he's happier with you leading him, could you lead him round a very short hacking route a couple of times and the try getting on him halfway round and riding him home?


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## Amirah (25 June 2018)

Ellietotz said:



			Sorry to hear this, sounds awful for you.  
Could you perhaps lead him out in hand a few times to get to know the area? Perhaps take your mare with him? I think I would carry on for a couple more weeks and if he is still doing it, then make a decision on whether to keep him or not as he could just be nervous about new area and rider, they aren't robots at the end of the day. I would just spend some time building up trust and see how things go from there. If he hasn't improved, then make the decision to either try to get your money back and return him or investigate the problem to see if it is pain related. Good luck x
		
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Good advice, bless him, he was perfectly happy and loving his owner and suddenly after many years from being very young she's sold him. He is clinging to your mare as he's feeling very insecure. 

I'm sure he's lovely but it just all got too much to deal with and he lost it.


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## Annagain (25 June 2018)

I wouldn't worry about the bond. I'm not a big believer in bonding. A horse needs to respect humans - especially one on his back - whether he's bonded to them or not. She needs to come and help you  / see what he's doing asap.  If you do hack him out please take someone with you on foot just in case.


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## be positive (25 June 2018)

Akkalia1 said:



			I also have spoken to the old owner who says it doesn't sound like him at all. She offered to come and help, but then said she's worried that if she comes over now she might ruin any new bond I'm forming with him as she said they were so close and he was a total mummy's boy. So I said I'd try a bit of riding in the field this week with maybe a couple of very small hacks just me and him and then get back to her at the end of the week. I'm honestly a bit terrified though, we could have both been badly hurt.
		
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Sorry but her excuse does not hold water with me, no bond will be broken but I don't think she will be much help anyway, he sounds like a spoilt brat who is rather used to getting his own way, having to go in front is unacceptable in a well educated mannerly horse, what on earth would he be like on a pleasure ride or similar which should be well within the capabilities of a happy hacker. 

I think you will have to either accept how he is for now and hope he does start to learn or remember how to behave or spend the next few months reeducating him, possibly a bit of both sometimes horses who have only had one rider all their lives are really lacking in a proper education because that rider has allowed certain traits to become normal, the power walking when under stress is a sign he lacks confidence, not just in you but in himself, some go in front but are not really leaders so when something changes they panic and the true horse shows,
Best of luck he probably will settle but I think your first concerns were probably correct and she set him up well for you the second time you tried him, a horse may take time to settle but in my experience genuinely sensible hacks don't suddenly become difficult unless it was underlying in the first place.


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## Amirah (25 June 2018)

I have a beautiful sweet mare, I am her third owner. The first owner had her from ages three to ten?  I think,  the second owner returned her to the first as she was a complete lunatic while she was in the second owner's care (who was a lovely person and got a lot of help/visits from the first owner). 

She was fine coming to me BUT she didn't come alone - she came with her field mate. Even then, she was glued to the field mate for a very long time after the move, months in fact. She was clearly upset by the change of owner/place. 

Moving homes can be much harder on a horse than many realise, particularly if they've been in a home from a young age and were happy there.


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## [59668] (25 June 2018)

Nothing to add really apart from sympathy.  How awful.  Hope you get it sorted


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## GTRJazz (25 June 2018)

Akkalia1 said:



			I also have spoken to the old owner who says it doesn't sound like him at all. She offered to come and help, but then said she's worried that if she comes over now she might ruin any new bond I'm forming with him as she said they were so close and he was a total mummy's boy. So I said I'd try a bit of riding in the field this week with maybe a couple of very small hacks just me and him and then get back to her at the end of the week. I'm honestly a bit terrified though, we could have both been badly hurt.
		
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This would be the easy way forward, hack out with her on another horse if he is good it will just take a bit of time for him to get used to you. I nearly ended up with a ex race horse sold as a novice ride but when I asked the owner to ride in an open field she said no way thanks. If you see her ride it will rule this sort of thing out.


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## Knightbridge (25 June 2018)

Sounds awful and frightening. I'd not hack until you feel confident with your new horse in a school first and progress from there. I find someone walking with you helps enormously with nervous or young horses to start with. Good luck.


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## MotherOfChickens (25 June 2018)

annagain said:



			I wouldn't worry about the bond. I'm not a big believer in bonding. A horse needs to respect humans - especially one on his back - whether he's bonded to them or not. She needs to come and help you  / see what he's doing asap.  If you do hack him out please take someone with you on foot just in case.
		
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I'm not either, but I do think its quite a big ask of a horse thats only known one rider and I do think we underestimate what a change of yard etc can do to some horses. A horse that has been a mummy's boy could quite honeslty been allowed to get away with allsorts and horses can be upset by different riders. 

OP you know he can be a good hack-get old owner to come out or get a well respected pro to come and ride him for you once or twice and stick a standing on him. I do feel for you, must have been scary. I have a pony now that came from a single owner and one perhaps who didnt have tons of experience. He is everything I was told but there's been a couple of quirks to iron out on the way. He was also very aloof for a few months but biddable. now I've had him for 10 months now I feel we are really getting somewhere in terms of knowing each other.


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## huskydamage (25 June 2018)

I think the owner comment re bond is a bit of a cop out tbh! I would keep trying with the hacking (perhaps not by yourself until you feel safe) and see if the horse starts to settle. I have the most laid back horse ever but when I first started hacking her which i did straight away she did stuff like spin and run off, run backwards, spook and bomb down the road. I didn't enjoy it but I kept going and she is so not like that at all now! It really was very out of character behaviour, even my farrier said she was a nightmate to shoe at the start but is now a changed horse. she obviously just takes time to get used to new stuff. I do think they need to be cut some slack and expected some might do stupid things at the start.


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## ester (25 June 2018)

Insist the old owner comes and sees him.  Bond or no bond . It doesn't sound to me like you have much of one that could be disrupted much at the moment anyway and even if you did I genuinely don't think it would be a problem.

Are you able to get friend to come and ride again so that you can see if the whole ride can be replicated?

Horses do change/stress on moving but from 'does not buck or rear' to the behaviour you describe seems quite extreme to me.


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## Pinkvboots (25 June 2018)

the only thing that stands out is that he had a week off from riding then you hacked him out in a strange place perhaps that's what upset him but I wouldn't expect bucking and rearing being a bit fresh I would understand, I also think the ruining the bond comment is crap sorry to be blunt but that is a cop out, I would insist she come down and sort this out if a previous owner is genuine they will want to make sure everything is right and your happy.

maybe do a bit of schooling and lunging and do a few short hacks with someone in between and see if he settles.


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## confirmedponyaddict (25 June 2018)

Sounds like nobody has really put any real effort into teaching him manners and maybe he didn't do anything like that with the old owner because life was on his terms most of the time. My mare dropped her shoulder and span quite violently the first few times I hacked her, and it's still her go to reaction if she sees something she doesn't like (sheep mainly?!) she also used to scream her head off anywhere new. It only took a week or so of consistent hacking and me being firm with her and now I honestly can't remember the last time she even thought about it. I think taking someone on foot is a good idea if you can- best of luck!


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## abb123 (25 June 2018)

Sounds like he is feeling insecure and was having a temper tantrum about leaving your in-season mare with his arch enemy shetland rival


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## Fred66 (25 June 2018)

Also it might be worth putting your shetland back in with the mare and leaving the new one on his own.


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## Hack4fun (25 June 2018)

I wonder if there is still some settling in going on, and some separation anxiety. My sensible horse was a complete nightmare when she first arrived, and I really struggled to hack out on her. I persisted, and it paid off. She is fine and the horse that was described to me. We just went very short distances - like a few tens of yards - but she learned she to follow my cues. We rode past the end of the drive so she learned that I decided when we turned in, not her. For a while we just went up and down on the road outside the house. We slowly built this up over time until we finally 'went for it' and have not looked back. My suggestion, and it may not be worth much, is to try little and often, and groundwork too.


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## Amymay (25 June 2018)

Do you have the original advert?


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## Akkalia1 (25 June 2018)

Thank you everybody for your input. Conflicting opinions but I can see the sense in all of them tbh. I don't think the owner was making an excuse as such, I think she would happily come over if asked and maybe I should just arrange to do that as it might give a bit more insight as to exactly where the problem lies. Or not!!

I think he probably has been allowed to always go first etc which is a bit of the issue. But the extreme behaviour does sound as if it's out of character for him so I think a combination of all suggestions will be how I'll progress. He was fine in hand after I'd got off after the dive into the trees debacle. So may try some in hand hacks. I do maybe think separating him off from my mare might be a plan too. I have lunged him and he does so very well, so may try some of that before riding. Although I don't think that would have made a jot of difference to his behaviour yesterday. He is generally very well behaved in hand. I asked about the standing martingale and that was only on as he tends to head shake at the chain on the pelham. He does tend to toss his nose a lot if flies land on it so can see that being true.

So if I go on the basis that it is very out of character and most likely prompted by my mare and just plug away for a bit to see if it improves? While working on his confidence/manners as I do agree that the power walking seems to be when he feels under stress and shows a lack of confidence. I'm used to my mare going backward when she gets insecure!!


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## Akkalia1 (25 June 2018)

amymay said:



			Do you have the original advert?
		
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No, it's down now.


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## Amymay (25 June 2018)

Akkalia1 said:



			No, it's down now.
		
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Have you done a general Google search? Was the horse advertised as good to hack?

I'd personally be sending the bleddy thing back. It sounds completely dangerous.


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## Akkalia1 (25 June 2018)

Advertised as good to hack alone and in company. 100% bombproof in the heaviest of traffic which seems to be true. And he was good to hack when I tried him, just strong the first time. As I said I was left beaming after the second hack, it was just what I'd been missing not being able to hack my mare.

I do however agree that his behaviour yesterday was dangerous.


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## paddy555 (25 June 2018)

Akkalia1 said:



			Advertised as good to hack alone and in company. 100% bombproof in the heaviest of traffic which seems to be true. And he was good to hack when I tried him, just strong the first time. As I said I was left beaming after the second hack, it was just what I'd been missing not being able to hack my mare.

I do however agree that his behaviour yesterday was dangerous.
		
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I think you need to decide if the problem is the horse or simply you and the horse. If the old owner is helpful ask her out ASAP, ask her to do the exact same hack you did that went wrong and with your friend and her horse. You go in the car and observe at various points, even take a few videos (if she is happy) so you can remind yourself as to how well he can go (or otherwise) Ask her to take the lead, go behind and walk alongside. 

That way you will have an answer. You have a horse that has serious problems or alternatively you have a horse so settled in his old home/old rider that has now been uprooted and you have to start to get him to work with you. If he goes well for the old owner can you try short hacks alone so he has you to focus on not your friend's horse where here is jostling for position.


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## Fred66 (25 June 2018)

amymay said:



			Have you done a general Google search? Was the horse advertised as good to hack?

I'd personally be sending the bleddy thing back. It sounds completely dangerous.
		
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This was a private sale so sending back might not be an option if OP was told it needed to be hacked the front (think this was mentioned in previous post) and if it is OK hacking at the front.

I would take the seller up on their option as if they had the horse for 8 years the chances are they don't want to see it potentially being passed from pillar to post if it doesn't settle.

Have you tried hacking out alone ? Is it OK with this ? Possibly get the old owner to come and hack it out both on its own and with someone else.


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## fredflop (25 June 2018)

Have back/teeth/saddle all been checked


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## Amymay (25 June 2018)

Doesn't matter if it was a private sale.


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## paddi22 (25 June 2018)

abb123 said:



			Sounds like he is feeling insecure and was having a temper tantrum about leaving your in-season mare with his arch enemy shetland rival
		
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I'd be inclined to agree with this.  It could just be a build up of stress in the horse that results in a meltdown - stress from a yard move/change owner, standing martingale being off. Plus add in the fact the horse is lacking basic manners if it always needs to go in front,  I'd say its all built up in the horse and this new hack route was just the straw that broke the camels back.. I get in eventers who would be very 'leader; style horses and would want to be in front, but you need to teach them they can't do that, as someone said you will always have situations like pleasure rides where they can't go in front.  I often spend week on horrible hacking fighting the horse to stay behind, but it needs to be done. And as someone said a horse needs to respect the rider that is on it. That 'bond' stuff is complete horse *****, a horse doesn't behave because it loves a person, it behaves because it has clear and easily understood boundaries on how to behave.

If you step back, how tough are you when it started to act up. I understand completely about getting off to check the curb, but after that how strong a rider were you to push through it?


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## ihatework (25 June 2018)

I wouldn&#8217;t be giving this horse too long. An experienced happy hack shouldn&#8217;t act like a dangerous twonk, even if it is a bit unsettled by a move.

I&#8217;d ask the owner to come and hop on and take it out for a hack ASAP.
If it so much as tries to do anything daft I&#8217;d broach the subject of them taking it back. You don&#8217;t know unless you ask but if you are thinking that way the sooner the better


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## Fred66 (25 June 2018)

amymay said:



			Doesn't matter if it was a private sale.
		
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Yes it does

If the seller was honest in their assessment of the horse and if it had never misbehaved in this manner with them then in a private sale it would be be up to the buyer to prove that the seller lied. (ie investigating the horses background and finding someone that is prepared to say that it was known to misbehave in this manner)

If it was a sale by a dealer then the default is that even if they did not know there was a fault they should have and therefore they are bound by the SoGA .


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## ester (25 June 2018)

^^ that's my inclination, if it messes about at all it proves the point that whether it is unsettled by the move/change of rider it isn't suitable and if she likes the horse enough she would take it back anyway to sell to someone more suitable.


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## Amymay (25 June 2018)

Fred66 said:



			Yes it does
		
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No. It really doesn't.


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## Akkalia1 (25 June 2018)

I haven't tried hacking out alone but I will, even if it's a bit of in-hand leading then hopping on. He was fine and listened to me in hand.

I haven't had back/teeth/saddle checked. But he didn't show any inclination towards this sort of behaviour when I tried him, nor when riding in the field in the run-up to trying this hack. He was blatantly unsettled leaving my mare so I do think that was behind it all. But of course I will get these checked if I'm thinking of trying to work through this.

It was a private sale and I don't really get the impression that the seller lied. His advert was correct for what he was when I tried him. She said he was always the lead horse but not that he couldn't be ridden next to another horse. I've known plenty of horses who usually are up front but will accept not being. My old mare was one. But that is maybe my fault for assuming it didn't mean he couldn't be alongside/behind.

I think she would take him back, she clearly adored the horse (well pony actually!) and was very upset when she left him with me and would only want the best for him. I doubt I'll get my money back and having bought a pony in March for hacking - who was utterly adorable - who then came down with grass sickness 4 days in and had to be put down, well aside from the upset this is all causing me, my bank balance could do without losing out again. But that, I suppose, is horses for you!

Did I ride strongly enough? I'm the first to admit I'm not a forceful rider and I get nervous when this sort of thing happens. I got off the first time partly with the thought of his bridle but also because he'd just dived down a ditch and I didn't really want him to fall over and land on top of me. I did my very best to ride through the rest of it and my friend said she didn't think I could have done any different. I think if I'd have given him a boot at any point he would have gone into orbit even more and I probably would have been forcibly ejected rather than managing to slither off his bum when he landed in the fence. He clearly was an upset horse. But do I think it excused his behaviour? Not really.


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## paddi22 (25 June 2018)

99% of horses that changes yards  and owners will have a point where they test the rider, especially if they are put under a bit more stress.  If that horse had come here the whinnying and stressy behaviour would made me not push the horse too far on a first hack (eg pressing buttons and having gates opening). Personally with a horse acting like that I would have walked the horse a small distance and not put it under any pressure for a first hack, or I probably would have long lined it. 

I wouldn't be panicing about the horse. It sounds like it successfully hacked out for years with its last owner, no reason why it should do the same with this new owner. I'd get the old owner down and see what she makes of the behaviour firstly. it might be a case of the new owner needing to build the horses confidence hacking a bit slower, the new owner might need to be tougher and ride through the bad behaviour for a period or the horse might not have been out with mares before and need to adapt to the new herd dynamics in place. 

Theres a lot of new dynamics that the horse wouldn't have encountered in its last home with one owner for over a decade. They aren't robots and they do get stressed and can react, it doesn't mean its a dangerous horse or has been missold.


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## paddi22 (25 June 2018)

It sounds awful, but we get horses in here and sometimes you just need to get the back protector on, a stick and just ride through the bad behaviour. Some horses just need to know you are in control and when you ride them through it it settles an  lot of them and they can relax cause they know you are in charge. Any weird hackers we get in usually just don't trust that they can relinquish control to the rider.  If you aren't happy that you can push through the bad behaviour then it might be an option to get someone in who you know is happy to sit out bad behaviour for a bit. Not someone harsh, but just someone who can sit through it and be calm and reward the horses for the right behaviour. 

I think you are right tho that it could be the mare making him clingy.


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## Goldenstar (25 June 2018)

Of course it hard to advise without seeing the horse but my but feeling is you are in all likely hood dealing with a spoilt horse who has trained his long term owner .
If it fixable yes it should be but are you up for it ? 
I would try to return  it sooner rather than later .
I would never give a mature horse bought as a hack down time when changing home they do much better IME when you get then straight into work .
I think the warnings where there the Pelham the standing martingale just get out of it ASAP .
I could right a long list of biazzre behaviours I have seen from horses moving home usually all fixable but if your not up for it just get him sent back if you can .


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## travellingpony (25 June 2018)

Goldenstar said:



			Of course it hard to advise without seeing the horse but my but feeling is you are in all likely hood dealing with a spoilt horse who has trained his long term owner .
If it fixable yes it should be but are you up for it ? 
I would try to return  it sooner rather than later .
I would never give a mature horse bought as a hack down time when changing home they do much better IME when you get then straight into work .
I think the warnings where there the Pelham the standing martingale just get out of it ASAP .
I could right a long list of biazzre behaviours I have seen from horses moving home usually all fixable but if your not up for it just get him sent back if you can .
		
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For me I would get out of it too if I can. You brought this for fun to hack on its own. You already have another so don't bother. That is assuming they will take it back?


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## Akkalia1 (25 June 2018)

Goldenstar said:



			Of course it hard to advise without seeing the horse but my but feeling is you are in all likely hood dealing with a spoilt horse who has trained his long term owner .
If it fixable yes it should be but are you up for it ? 
I would try to return  it sooner rather than later .
I would never give a mature horse bought as a hack down time when changing home they do much better IME when you get then straight into work .
I think the warnings where there the Pelham the standing martingale just get out of it ASAP .
I could right a long list of biazzre behaviours I have seen from horses moving home usually all fixable but if your not up for it just get him sent back if you can .
		
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I am not up to it I don't think. If it is genuinely a case of being unsettled at leaving my mare or just with a change and a bit of time can fix it then fine. But if it's because of real training issues I don't think I have the energy for that. Whether I try to work out which of these two things it is I don't know.

I've put a lot of blood, sweat and tears into my mare and am proud of how far we have come, despite not cracking her hacking issue, but I don't want to do that again. Don't get me wrong, of course no horse is a robot and I don't mind putting work in. I would expect that. But sorting out the issues I saw yesterday if it was a regular thing? I don't think I can do that. As travelling pony says this was meant to be my fun horse!


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## travellingpony (25 June 2018)

Akkalia1 said:



			I am not up to it I don't think. If it is genuinely a case of being unsettled at leaving my mare or just with a change and a bit of time can fix it then fine. But if it's because of real training issues I don't think I have the energy for that. Whether I try to work out which of these two things it is I don't know.

I've put a lot of blood, sweat and tears into my mare and am proud of how far we have come, despite not cracking her hacking issue, but I don't want to do that again. Don't get me wrong, of course no horse is a robot and I don't mind putting work in. I would expect that. But sorting out the issues I saw yesterday if it was a regular thing? I don't think I can do that. As travelling pony says this was meant to be my fun horse!
		
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Been there myself and wasted thousands this year get rid quick


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## JFTDWS (25 June 2018)

amymay said:



			Have you done a general Google search? Was the horse advertised as good to hack?

I'd personally be sending the bleddy thing back. It sounds completely dangerous.
		
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Exactly.  Previous owner sounds like a right chump - bond indeed :rolleyes3:


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## Akkalia1 (25 June 2018)

JFTD said:



			Exactly.  Previous owner sounds like a right chump - bond indeed :rolleyes3:
		
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I can understand you coming to that conclusion. The bond chat is not for everyone I know!! 

But for avoidance of doubt I don't think she mis-sold him. He hacked fine when I tried him, as was advertised. I saw videos of him hacking with previous owner and it all looked good. 

There could be training issues here for sure with the whole lead horse thing and this was compounded by the separation from my mare, he was a stressed out horse. But I totally agree it was way, way over the top the reaction.

Can't remember who said that it sounded like too much of a hack for a new horse, maybe you're right, when I saw he was stressed I should have made it a very small, end of the road and back thing. I just thought since he's been hacked over all sorts, motorway passes, through a McDonalds drive through, I kind of figured the wee hack I did would be ok!

Meh, I think getting the owner over ASAP is my first port of call.


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## Fred66 (25 June 2018)

Akkalia1 said:



			Meh, I think getting the owner over ASAP is my first port of call.
		
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This

From what you have said you wanted what you thought you had bought and would love him as that. The seller obviously had an emotional attachment to him and therefore hopefully she will be willing to come over to witness / help fix his behaviour.

If she fixes it then all well and good you have what you wanted. If she doesn't then you need to make it clear that you aren't able or willing to put the time in to trying to fix it. You can ask her to refund your money and take him back and see what her response is. Make it clear if not then you will be looking to get rid of him one way or another.


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## MotherOfChickens (25 June 2018)

the first couple of weeks when you were settling him in, did you seperate him from the mare at all? I only have geldings (for partly that reasons, as SA always seems worse between mares and geldings than geldings and geldings IME) but whenever I get a new one I spend some time doing stuff seperately with them, even if not riding. Bring one in to groom, take the other for a walk, turn one out, bring one in-all for varying amounts of time.

I agree that you shouldnt have to sort this if you dont want to. A horse thats been with a single owner all its life can be quite green in some ways -best to sound out the owner, good luck.


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## Akkalia1 (25 June 2018)

Fred66 said:



			This

From what you have said you wanted what you thought you had bought and would love him as that. The seller obviously had an emotional attachment to him and therefore hopefully she will be willing to come over to witness / help fix his behaviour.

If she fixes it then all well and good you have what you wanted. If she doesn't then you need to make it clear that you aren't able or willing to put the time in to trying to fix it. You can ask her to refund your money and take him back and see what her response is. Make it clear if not then you will be looking to get rid of him one way or another.
		
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Yes, I do think she will come and help so I will do this.


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## Ambers Echo (25 June 2018)

I am deeply suspicious of all sellers!! If I were selling Max I could easily set things up so his quirks don't show up. Basically take him somewhere he knows and show him off hacking on the buckle! But he is NOT a good hacking horse and I woiuld never claim he was. (Well not yet anyway though I plan to work on it....) He has tantrums if he is left behind (bucking/rearing) and he gets strong and silly  in new places and jog, prances then rears if you try and hold him back. 

I could sell him as a lovely hack if we set off from his own yard but he would struggle in the scenario of me hacking him somewhere unfamiliar with another horse - ie what the old owner is trying to avoid! 

Ask for the owner to repeat the route you did as suggested above including waiting at the buttons. If she won't, get rid as she is probably hiding something. If she does hack him out then be super attentive to anything she does that suggests she is heading off problems at the pass. Remember a lot of bad behaviour is headed off before you can really see it. Max hardly ever rears with me because I can feel him getting tense and I stick a few circles/spins in etc. Looks fairly innocuous but I know where the behaviour is headed if I don't re-direct him! So beware any 'I'll just circle him to settle him' stuff and watch out for tension - jogging, head high etc. Even if she dismisses it as him just being unsettled in a new place and even if it does not escalate. A safe happy hacker is just that. Get on and go for a ride anywhere and stay relaxed. Stand and wait,  go in front or behind etc. On the other hand if he is chilled on that ride with her then you will know he IS a good hacker but just needs time and exposure to feel safe hacking with you.

Good luck. Hope it works out.


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## Akkalia1 (25 June 2018)

MotherOfChickens said:



			the first couple of weeks when you were settling him in, did you seperate him from the mare at all? I only have geldings (for partly that reasons, as SA always seems worse between mares and geldings than geldings and geldings IME) but whenever I get a new one I spend some time doing stuff seperately with them, even if not riding. Bring one in to groom, take the other for a walk, turn one out, bring one in-all for varying amounts of time.

I agree that you shouldnt have to sort this if you dont want to. A horse thats been with a single owner all its life can be quite green in some ways -best to sound out the owner, good luck.
		
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Yes, I did exactly this from the get go. Each horse would come in separately each day for a groom and/or ride in the field with a potter along our road (dead end). My mare was mostly ok with this, she is a stressy plonker but she coped fine with just some fidgeting when tied up. She was fine left in the field with the shetland. New horse was ok when brought in but was a bit stressy left in the field with the shetland. This settled after a few days. When my mare came into season however both horses were mostly ok being brought in but the one left in the field did a bit more running about and calling again.

Thank you , I think I shall need some luck!!


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## LegOn (25 June 2018)

In fairness the horse was 100% bombproof to the original owner! So I dont think she lied because he really hasnt been with any other riders & trusts his rider completely no matter where they go, so she would have every reason to believe he is 100% bombproof for her.  The definition of bombproof then is up for debate rather than her belief that her horse is bombproof.  

My young horse was brilliant jumping & on trial but when I brought him home he was spooky with me - well of course, everything has changed, new rider, asking new things or asking things differently & new routine, new smells, new everything. Now I know he is young so you would expect a bit of young-horse-ness but the same applies, everything in this horses world has disappeared, maybe he is bombproof with his old rider because she rode him strongly or differently, you dont know! 

Get the old owner out but otherwise this horse is getting himself worked up because he doenst understand & he is reacting before you have a chance to explain the situation to him.  I would be inclined to help him by maybe putting him a calmer for a few weeks & taking down his adrenaline levels, giving him a chance to relax & listen to you.  He isnt listening, he is just reacting. 

But get his old owner out first - if he is doing the same with her, then he is probably just wound up & confused.  Then you an decide or make an agreement about the way forward.


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## Ambers Echo (25 June 2018)

LegOn said:



			In fairness the horse was 100% bombproof to the original owner!
		
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How do you know? Apart from being told by the owner?? Or do you know the horse/owner?


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## HeyMich (25 June 2018)

I haven't read all the replies, but just wondering if anyone has mentioned the electric gates at all?

Both times the horse spooked and ran through/into the fence was when you pressed the button to open the gates - maybe he hasn't ever seen or heard this before (they do make a low buzzing noise and vibrate a bit) and after being in a new place with a new rider on a new hack, his brain just couldn't cope with the gates too? I'd try walking him to the gates in-hand and just opening and closing them, to get him used to the sound. Sorry if someone's already suggested that!


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## Clodagh (25 June 2018)

Haven't read all the replies but he sounds like he is a loved up herd leader and is panicking about being away from the mare. Some horses take being in charge very seriously.


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## travellingpony (25 June 2018)

Ambers Echo said:



			How do you know? Apart from being told by the owner?? Or do you know the horse/owner?
		
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I have lost about 2k this year in selling my horse by being super honest and in buying from someone who lied. 

I dont believe anything would become totally different. As described by op it sounds dangerous. 

I wouldnt be getting back in it if they will take it back I would do that. If she loves it she will. 

Why work through a load of issues when you have spent good money to have fun. 

I at present want to get rid of all of mine because Im sick of the expense and drama. Hobbies are meant to be fun and enjoyable let this one go.


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## travellingpony (25 June 2018)

The woman who brought mine rang up going mad because she had some problem tacking it up. When we talked it was quite obvious what had happened and we resolved it. I had let the horse go at a fraction of its value but would have taken it back if there had been a real issue because I cared about its wealfare. Dont be too nice next thing will be she has nowhere to put it and has bonded with another


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## travellingpony (25 June 2018)

Lastly sorry you say you arent that confident this will do nothing for you. Just be a bit selfish if you dont feel safe or happy just leave it. If he is stubborn and pig headed he will know you are afraid and dont mean it.


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## JFTDWS (25 June 2018)

Ambers Echo said:



			I am deeply suspicious of all sellers!! If I were selling Max I could easily set things up so his quirks don't show up. Basically take him somewhere he knows and show him off hacking on the buckle! But he is NOT a good hacking horse and I woiuld never claim he was. (Well not yet anyway though I plan to work on it....) He has tantrums if he is left behind (bucking/rearing) and he gets strong and silly  in new places and jog, prances then rears if you try and hold him back.
		
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I could sell one of mine as a lovely hack if I set him up for it too (well, I could, if I hadn't talked about his antics at length on here!).  In company, at pleasure rides and all that, he's foot perfect.  

Alone, he can be very nice - if he's hacking every day, and working hard.  Give him a week off and he'll spook at every other blade of grass and generally be a melodramatic idiot.  Take him on a new route, or one he's not been on for a month or two, alone, when he's slightly fresh and he can be seriously stupid, potentially dangerous if you don't know how to manage him (and how to avoid these situations).  

I'd never sell him, and I'd certainly never sell him as an easy hack - but if I set him up for it, I'll bet I could. One does wonder about a seller who puts him in a pelham and standing martingale for viewing, despite being a mannerly hack.


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## ester (25 June 2018)

And even loved up herd leaders (have one of those) can act perfectly mannerly when hacking straight off if they are genuinely good to hack.


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## paddi22 (25 June 2018)

HeyMich said:



			I haven't read all the replies, but just wondering if anyone has mentioned the electric gates at all?

Both times the horse spooked and ran through/into the fence was when you pressed the button to open the gates - maybe he hasn't ever seen or heard this before (they do make a low buzzing noise and vibrate a bit) and after being in a new place with a new rider on a new hack, his brain just couldn't cope with the gates too? I'd try walking him to the gates in-hand and just opening and closing them, to get him used to the sound. Sorry if someone's already suggested that!
		
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yeah i think this is a big factor too.I know my horses wouldn't be used to this, and some would associate gates and a buzzing nose with electric fencing. I think it was a stressful thing for a horse in a new place, with a new rider who sounds a bit nervy. He might be a bit all over the place with being in charge of a mare now too. A few groundwork sessions to establish who is in charge, and a few more confidence giving hacks would probably fix this. 

i completely disagree with the people saying send him back. I agree with sending back dangerous horses immediately, but theres a lot of factors in this that would make me think this isn't a dangerous horse in the slightest. Also If you buy a horse I think you have a responsibility to give a good shot at seeing can the situation be fixed. I don't think its fair to write off the horse over this one incident. I think the horse deserves a shot at having the owner coming over and having a look at least.


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## Polos Mum (25 June 2018)

You were looking for a mannerly hack to enjoy getting out and about because your project mare won't let you do that (if I have read right) 

A project hack that is going to take time and effort isn't what you wanted - if you wanted to spend a year getting a horse used to hacking you could just do that with your mare - right? 

A mannerly hack will get off a box at a sponsored ride or riding club Christmas hack and just do his job - no need for settling into the new environment.  Hunt hirelings do a days hunting with any old idiot that turns up (I know I have been the idiot) no bond, no warm up etc. 
A week for a mature horse to settle is a massive amount of time and no bond doesn't equal no manners or basic control.  Yes you might not be able to get the best dressage out of him week one but throwing himself around I promise isn't about bonding.  Look at all those event riders who pick up a 3* event horse two weeks before the event - they both just do their job - probably not perfectly but don't disgrace themselves! 


I would send back and IMHO get a mare to hack - mixed mares and geldings I think seem to be causing more and more problems!


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## paddi22 (25 June 2018)

just to play devils advocate to polos mum point above (which is a good point). A hired hack will have been used to countless riders on it and being brought to countless venues. 

And as someone who events other peoples horses,  those horses would also be used to various riders and venues from a young age. And the riders would be confident enough to sort out bad behaviour quickly. 

This horse has had one rider for 11 years and probably hacked the same route  90% of the time. It's a different ballgame for it.


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## DabDab (25 June 2018)

Haven't read all the replies but from what you've said in the OP and from the old owner's response, I would send him back.

Settling period or not, he's not the happy hacker you set out to buy, and too many incidents like this and your confidence will be wrecked. It sounds like he would be more suited to a hard working hunting home really.


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## be positive (25 June 2018)

paddi22 said:



			yeah i think this is a big factor too.I know my horses wouldn't be used to this, and some would associate gates and a buzzing nose with electric fencing. I think it was a stressful thing for a horse in a new place, with a new rider who sounds a bit nervy. He might be a bit all over the place with being in charge of a mare now too. A few groundwork sessions to establish who is in charge, and a few more confidence giving hacks would probably fix this. 

i completely disagree with the people saying send him back. I agree with sending back dangerous horses immediately, but theres a lot of factors in this that would make me think this isn't a dangerous horse in the slightest. Also If you buy a horse I think you have a responsibility to give a good shot at seeing can the situation be fixed. I don't think its fair to write off the horse over this one incident. I think the horse deserves a shot at having the owner coming over and having a look at least.
		
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He wasn't behaving before he got to the gates, he will not allow another horse near him which is not my idea of a safe bombproof hack, I have had many new horses arrive here, some for problem solving and I expect them to all be able to walk down the lane with another horse in close proximity without throwing a wobbly, it is a basic requirement of any educated horse and while I would be prepared to work on some aspects of any horse this behaviour is not acceptable and not normal for something sold as a made hack. 

I said earlier it sounds like a spoilt brat that the owner has allowed to be in control rather than the rider and it is probably in need of a lot of remedial work, it may be stressful to move home but should not cause a total change in personality.


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## Pearlsasinger (25 June 2018)

Did you buy his tack with him?  If so, are you sure his saddle is the one you rode him in?  Or if you didn't buy his tack,  have you had a new saddle fitted and a 2nd opinion on the fit of the saddle?


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## Polos Mum (25 June 2018)

paddi22 said:



			This horse has had one rider for 11 years and probably hacked the same route  90% of the time. It's a different ballgame for it.
		
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I had my old horse from a professional eventer who completed him for 10 years. I am a minor hobby rider by comparison - it absolutely took me a year to find all his buttons and learn to ride him properly (not sure I ever truly got the best out if him if I'm honest!) but he did as I asked 95% of the time - he took me at my word often and the halt gallop into a fence as I faffed about was comical for those watching the first few times. As he tried to do what I was asking. He was straight and honest and very used to someone specific who he worked really well for. 

I just think there's a big difference between working well for someone and doing the basics without a massive drama.  The horse may be fixable and may be fine with a tonne of re-schooling and getting used to someone new. But strong bit, standing martingale, talking of bonding and advice to give him a week to settle in push all the wrong buttons for me.


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## HashRouge (25 June 2018)

Polos Mum said:



			You were looking for a mannerly hack to enjoy getting out and about because your project mare won't let you do that (if I have read right) 

A project hack that is going to take time and effort isn't what you wanted - if you wanted to spend a year getting a horse used to hacking you could just do that with your mare - right?
		
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I agree with this. I suspect the horse is quite unsettled at the moment and was particularly so when you hacked him (new places, new rider, had to leave his new friend) but as others have said, his behaviour does sound extreme and really not what you would expect from a safe happy hacker. As a comparison, when we bought my Arab mare, 17 years ago, I trotted her round the school a few times the day after she arrived, then went for a hack the following day with a group of people from the yard. She went in the middle, walked and trotted happily and, apart from a few mild spooks, didn't put a foot wrong. And she was by no means an easy horse, particularly at the beginning. I had quite a few issues with her, mainly in the school. I was also only 11 years old and really didn't have a clue what I was doing! However, she was sold as good to hack and she always was, even at the beginning. 

If you can, I would send him back and find something more suited to what you want.


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## paddi22 (25 June 2018)

just putting forward theoretical points here for the same of a debate as there are good points on all sides.

But I would always give horses a bit of time to settle here when they come here, usually I just turn them out for a week or two with no riding pressure just to let them settle a bit and adjust to their new herd. I

I know there is a theory that says it is best to get them into work straight away (and i totally agree that some types do better in work and you just sense which ones need that and put them in work straight away). 

But if a horse is whinying and feels nappy you either have to make a call on if you need to dial down the pressure, or smack and ride through it. 

When a horse changes yards their forage, feeding routines, turnout routines  and everything changes for them. You often see horses not sleep properly for the first week, and this can have a massive effect on their ability to cope with stress, and I could completely see how an electric gate making a buzzing sound would make a horse panic if it didn't trust its rider. 

A horse who has been happily owned for 11 years by one person, and taken out and about to places and events seemingly with no issue deserves a shot at seeing can the issues be solved. Its a different ballgame from getting an unknown horse in from a dealers.  

This horse has a pattern of good behaviour from what the new owner can tell. It could be anything from saddle fit, reaction to new feed or forage, reduced turnout, rider nerves, hormonal reaction to mare, lack of sleep. 

Surely letting the old owner up and seeing what she makes of it is no harm. The horse has seemingly happily been in the same home for 11 years, i'd give it the benefit of the doubt with that history.


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## {97702} (25 June 2018)

I definitely wouldnt have given him time off on arrival - straight out there and start working!  And I definitely wouldn't have let the dynamic evolve with your in-season mare, that is just asking for trouble in any situation.

I would imagine you have lost confidence in the horse now so he is not for you, so I would send him back and avoid those two things in future for a more settled introduction


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## JFTDWS (25 June 2018)

Polos Mum said:



			The horse may be fixable and may be fine with a tonne of re-schooling and getting used to someone new. But strong bit, standing martingale, talking of bonding and advice to give him a week to settle in push all the wrong buttons for me.
		
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Absolutely - there are so many red flags in the old owner's behaviour, and in how the horse has behaved.  I've always ridden backed horses the day they arrive, or the day after, and I expect them to get on with it - they spend their lives being taken here and there to new and scary places, and are expected to work, move yards, stay away at competitions, and still get on with the job.  You don't have to stress a horse to establish these sorts of routines and expectations, unless they have a background of poor training or other issues - you just moderate the requirements so they can give the right answers. 

It's not this horse's fault that his owner hasn't had other riders on him, has allowed him to become essentially instituitionalised, and then sold him on.  That's really rubbish for the horse - it's poor, thoughtless training.  But it will take effort to fix that now, and that isn't what the OP was looking for.


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## Goldenstar (25 June 2018)

Tbh I would buy a mare in OP&#8217;s shoes .


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## LegOn (25 June 2018)

No I meant as in her eyes the horse might have been bombproof cause she had no reason not to believe that because she was the only one to hack him & in all places he was familiar. So honestly, she might 'believe' he is that way but my point was it might not be the reality. It's all relative!


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## mandyroberts (25 June 2018)

Let the old owner come and hack him out and watch. Is she a much more skillful rider than you? If he is fine with her he needs to settle with you. At least you would know whether its you. I wouldn't have given a mature horse time to settle - he shouldn't need it. If he is fine with old owner you need to discuss - and maybe lunge before you ride? Are horse flies driving him nuts?


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## xDundryx (26 June 2018)

I think for me, like others, there are alarm bells ringing. He was deemed strong the first time he was tried, the second time he was anchored with a strong bit and standing martingale. For a confidence giving hack this horse doesn't appear to fit the bill for these reasons x


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## Ambers Echo (26 June 2018)

LegOn said:



			No I meant as in her eyes the horse might have been bombproof cause she had no reason not to believe that because she was the only one to hack him & in all places he was familiar. So honestly, she might 'believe' he is that way but my point was it might not be the reality. It's all relative!
		
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Yes and she could well be telling the truth about that. But actually she could also be making it up. Sellers are often utterly dishonest. A friend of mine has just found out that a pony she bought as a safe confidence giving child's pony is a known bolter. She has actually seen the messages the old owner sent to the dealer saing will you sell on this pony with a history of running off after re-trainig to a competent adult with full disclosure! Dealer sold on as a safe child's pony 2 weeks later. And the dealer was actually a FRIEND of my friend. And I have known many private sellers lie too. Our first pony was dangerous. Bought privately as a safe and kind child's first pony. He wasn't! He was foot perfect on viewing. I gave him  (and the seller) the beneift of the doubt for several months till my daughter ended up in hospital. He was sold (well more or less gifted)to the yard he was already on as working livery  as the RI/YO felt he would be ok with  more work and more confident riding. But we soon discovered that with a better the rider he just put more effort into getting them off. He was retired and  euthansed in the end. I wish I had just sent him back the first day he deliberatley decked my daughter which was within a week. And not blamed 'settling in' and 'nervous rider' and 101 other excuses. Nor believed the 'he's never done that before' bull!


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## bubsqueaks (26 June 2018)

Akkalia1 said:



			So I bought a new horse just over two weeks ago. I have an ex-racehorse who has come on leaps and bounds and our schooling is going well, but who is never going to be able to hack around where I live due to regular lorries and tractors being on the road. I've tried and tried to get her used to it but it's just not safe. I can't part with her, I love her despite the difficulties we've had and we're starting to really progress with our dressage which we both enjoy.

So I thought I'd look for a second horse - bombproof happy hacker type. After much searching I found one. Lovely nature. When I first tried him I liked him but had some doubts. He is bombproof in all traffic and forward going which I like. But I found him very strong. And almost too forward, think turbo walk, not that happy to stand or slow his pace. I said to the owner that although I liked him I had concerns about how strong he was. She said she didn't find him strong so was confused. She texted me later to say having thought about it, the only time she'd found him strong was when he'd moved yards and his routine was different. She'd put him in a pelham for the first two weeks after a yard move until he settled. She wondered if having a different rider on him (she's had him since he was 3 and he's now 11 and really she's the only one who rode him and they have a close bond) might have caused him to be unsettled and strong. She suggested she bring him for a hack to a local park and I could try again in his pelham. So we did that and it went perfect, not fazed at being in a new place, got off lorry, stood calmly etc. Much more relaxed horse when riding and just a touch on the reins to slow him down. He went over bridges, alongside a roaring dual carriageway, didn't bat an eyelid and we had a lovely canter. I was beaming and agreed to buy him. Apparently he's always been a lead horse, we rode out both times with another horse who was behind us. He also had a standing martingale on for this hack.


So he arrived 2 weeks ago, I gave him the first week to just settle. He got on fab with my mare. I kept my shetland separate as he is known to try and bully other geldings! He was great to do everything with, very straightforward compared to my mare. During the second week I rode him (in his snaffle) a couple of times in the rested part of the field next to the other horses and he was good. I took both horses out of the field to the stables separately when riding them to get them used to going away from each other. There was a bit of whinnying/running about but generally fine. However my mare has been in season the last few days and is like a limpet with the new boy. He is also very stuck to her!! They seem rather in love. However we managed a ride in the field during this time and he was fine. I tried letting the shetland in as he seemed to be glaring at the new boy less. However they went at loggerheads with the shetland coming off worse and who now is not allowed anywhere near my mare. 

Sorry this is long but that's all a bit of background to help give the full picture!

On to the hack. Thought it was time to try a hack. My friend brought her horse down to hack out with me as thought it would be best to try first hack in company. Pelham on. No standing martingale. As soon as we walked out of the yard together he did turbo walk then got very upset, started prancing, did a rear/buck then reversed into a ditch. I got off wondering if I'd put the curb too tight. Didn't really think I had but loosened it off a link just in case. Got on, made it along to the field although he was upset and reversed into a fence at one point. Did a bit of walking round the field with my friends horse. All ok. Headed off again with me in the lead by some distance. Friends horse is also used to being in the front so she kept him well back so there wasn't any issues. Managed all the way out down the road but my horse was doing his turbo walk and whinnying his head off the whole way. Anytime my friend brought her horse anywhere close he was threatening to prance and rear. We got to a gate into an estate where you need to press a button to open the gates. Just managed to make him stand to press button, waited for gates to open then he absolutely launched through them in a fly rear! Carried on, made it to the other side of the estate when you have to press another button for the gates. He wasn't having that and threatened to rear and buck. I turned him in a couple of circles then asked him to approach the button again. At that point he launched forwards in a rear straight into a wire fence with just trees on the other side. I got flattened against his bum, he got tangled in the fence and I had to slide off the back. Miraculously neither of us were injured. At that point I'd had enough and told my friend to go and enjoy a bit of a longer hack and I'd lead mine home. He walked back fine in hand. 

To say I was terrified was an understatement. I've had some hairy hacks on my mare but I don't think even she would have launched herself through a fence with trees on the other side. It was almost as if there'd been a wall there he might have done the same thing! Also marginally concerned that even without the extreme behaviour he may be a horse that won't let another horse walk alongside. My fault for not checking that.

Did I do something wrong do you think? Too soon for a hack with a new person in a new place? He seemed fairly settled generally! Has he maybe just got utterly attached to my mare? Should I have paid more heed to the first time I tried him when he was strong? I want to give him the benefit of the doubt but I was told he'd never reared or bucked, which may well be true, but the reactions he had were extreme to say the least. Maybe I've rushed him but I thought I'd bought a fairly established horse who was going to be my safe hacker and while I might have expected him to be a bit unsettled on his first hack I didn't expect what I got. My friend was gobsmacked at his behaviour.

Sorry it's long but if you've made it to the end thoughts would be appreciated. I'm fairly upset and confused as to how to progress with him. Not exactly thrilled at the prospect of getting back on to be honest.
		
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There are loads of factors at play here but I agree it will have hugely knocked your confidence so you need to either get the old owner to come & hack him or get a professional to hack him otherwise he will pick up on your nerves - tbh you've only given him one chance out on a hack which isn't a criticism as Id feel exactly the same in your situation but given that your mare is in season this hasn't helped him as he will no doubt have been unsettled by the move & now clinging to her - its instinct.  lots of good advice here but you obviously really liked him to buy him so give him some more time with his old owner kept on side - good luck.


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## Ambers Echo (26 June 2018)

Having daid all that... I DID once have a Fell pony who I backed myself and she was fantastic. I hacked her everywhere and evented her unaff for a season. She never bucked, reared or ran off. And she almost never spooked. She was really easy. I sold her on at 5 to a teeenager who found her very hard to control and who contacted me to say she was tanking off with her.

 However she was fine in that home for a few months before her behaviour went downhill. AND she was only 5. SO I can only assume that she had got a bit strong or rude a few times in the first few weeks and got away with it and it went downhill from here till she was bogging off at will. To be fair to the new owners they did accept she had not been missold and that it was the riding and not the pony! It does  not sound like this is the situation you are in. And anyway I would never have sold her as a a safe hacking pony as she was only 5. She was sold as a pony who sofar had been good to hack but was young  and needed an experienced rider.


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## Pearlsasinger (26 June 2018)

Goldenstar said:



			Tbh I would buy a mare in OP&#8217;s shoes .
		
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Yes, I wouldn't keep a mare and gelding together, it is almost asking for problems.


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## Goldenstar (26 June 2018)

Some buyer are dishonest and some are deluded given all the bull about bonding OP may be dealing with the deluded type .
OP has the wrong horse here a bit of spooking or being very on its toes is one thing bit if you trying to build confidence yourself this is not an issue you should be trying to tease out and fix yourself .
If you buy a horse as a safe hack then it must hack safely it might be lazy or carry its head badly or be crooked etc etc  all these things I would tell OP to buckle down get some help and work on the issues .
Horses who are not straight forward who have been with one owner for years can be nightmares when you say no thats not how we do it here and Ops Is not up for a massive epic to get a hack .


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## Mule (26 June 2018)

The fact that he ran into wire has alarm bells ringing.  A horse with no regard for its own safety is bloody dangerous. (I've been there). If there's any chance of returning the horse, I would. I'm really sorry about this op , I know it's very disappointing. (Just read another posters suggestion about the electric gates, that's worth investigating)


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## Goldenstar (26 June 2018)

mule said:



			The fact that he ran into wire has alarm bells ringing.  A horse with no regard for its own safety is bloody dangerous. (I've been there). If there's any chance of returning the horse, I would. I'm really sorry about this op , I know it's very disappointing. (Just read another posters suggestion about the electric gates, that's worth investigating)
		
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I dont think it is worth investigating it shows the degree to which the horse overreacts when things go a bit wrong or not his way .


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## scats (26 June 2018)

Havent read all of the replies sorry, but you bought a second horse becausel you wanted a safe hack and he has showed himself to be anything but.  The Pelham and standing martingale would have raised alarm bells for me and I do wonder whether the previous owner has had issues with him in the past and has had  back up equipment on him just in case.  I dont doubt he has probably been ok to hack with the previous owner, but shes has had him a long time and they probably knew each other inside my out.  Plus, many people hack horses on the same routes and the horse becomes fairly bombproof to those routes, but can change a bit when taken somewhere different.

I suppose you have a few choices, but either way, I would let the previous owner know that you arent happy and suss out whether there may be an option to send him back and get a refund.
You could ask the old owner to come down and hack him out and you accompany on foot behind.  It would be interesting to see if his behaviour changes or indeed how the previous owner deals with it if it does arise.
You could work through it, and no doubt this can be done, but will require time, patience and confidence.  I would fully understand if this isnt something you wish to undertake, given that you bought the horse specifically for hacking.

Id be inclined to send him back.  The leaping into a wire fence is not a usual reaction and would make me feel very vulnerable on a road.  Is he likely to leap into the path of a car if hes asked a question that he doesnt like on the road?


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## Akkalia1 (26 June 2018)

Again thank you for all the advice!! So many conflicting opinions and ideas as expected. I'll try and answer a few points although may forget some.

I need to state again, I do understand not trusting sellers and I'm sort of in the middle with that one. I tend to try and believe people though. But surely if she was expecting trouble he'd have been in his pelham and standing martingale on that first hack? She seemed genuinely confused when I said I found him strong hence suggesting trying the second hack in the pelham. I have seen videos and photos of her hacking him on grass, on roads etc and he is in a snaffle with no martingale. I rode him that second week after I got him in the field in his snaffle with no martingale with no issues. Yes he was forward and a bit strong but I was working on using half halts and rewarding his slowing in pace and he was doing grand. He lunged during the first week like a gent and in hand hasn't put a foot wrong.

Mares and geldings - I've always kept them together with no issues, including one mare and one gelding together, or in groups. Clearly though there is a big issue here and one I should maybe have considered. My mare is the soppiest dope when in season so not helping.

I do absolutely think though that there could be a training issue here and not having it how he wanted it resulted in this reaction. I totally get a horse being unsettled but I don't think it should have triggered a reaction which was basically jumping into a wall of vegetation. The lack of self preservation is indeed my major concern here.

Is the old owner more experienced - I'm not sure, I wouldn't say massively. She got him having after looking for something to restore her confidence. She's older than me and was selling due to health issues. I had an ex-racehorse for 19 years prior to getting my current mare. She was certainly an easier mare, but she was spooky and could have a good old dance about but she was not dangerous in any way and we hacked everywhere together. Yes I can get nervous if a horse is threatening to go up (a horse reared and went over backwards with me and fractured my spine) but I'm not unused to a horse on it's toes. I'm not used to being launched down ditches and into fences. Who is?? 

The gates may have exacerbated the situation I agree.

I don't think the old owner could come out til the weekend but I'm going to arrange that and in the meantime try and get on board in the field and on a very short hack with someone on foot.

Rode the dippy thoroughbred last night and it was a much more pleasant experience than my safe cob haha!

However I think I'm erring towards basically this not being the horse for me. If that's what he's capable of, even under stress, well I don't think I'll trust him. Maybe it was just extreme stress he was feeling. But I'm not sure he should have been really as many have said.


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## Akkalia1 (26 June 2018)

scats said:



			I&#8217;d be inclined to send him back.  The leaping into a wire fence is not a &#8216;usual&#8217; reaction and would make me feel very vulnerable on a road.  Is he likely to leap into the path of a car if he&#8217;s asked a question that he doesn&#8217;t like on the road?
		
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Precisely one of my worries. 

Re hacking different places - she said she'd moved yards a lot with him and she clearly boxed him and took him places for hacks. The second time I rode she boxed him to a park near me where he'd only been once before. So not a place he was familiar with.

I should have been worried by the pelham and martingale I suppose but her reasoning sounded sensible to me.


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## Pearlsasinger (26 June 2018)

Akkalia1 said:



			However I think I'm erring towards basically this not being the horse for me. If that's what he's capable of, even under stress, well I don't think I'll trust him. Maybe it was just extreme stress he was feeling. But I'm not sure he should have been really as many have said.
		
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I think that is the decision I would have come to under the circumstances. There is unsettled in a new home and then there is this horse's reaction, which is not what I would expect from a 'safe hack'.


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## southerncomfort (26 June 2018)

LegOn said:



			No I meant as in her eyes the horse might have been bombproof cause she had no reason not to believe that because she was the only one to hack him & in all places he was familiar. So honestly, she might 'believe' he is that way but my point was it might not be the reality. It's all relative!
		
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And also, in my experience some people's idea of 'bombproof' and 'quiet to ride' are very different to mine!


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## Goldenstar (26 June 2018)

If you can send him back do so without delay .
This is not your problem to fix


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## MagicMelon (26 June 2018)

mule said:



			The fact that he ran into wire has alarm bells ringing.  A horse with no regard for its own safety is bloody dangerous. (I've been there). If there's any chance of returning the horse, I would. I'm really sorry about this op , I know it's very disappointing. (Just read another posters suggestion about the electric gates, that's worth investigating)
		
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Hmm it could have been a one off. One of my horses (now retired) did this in the first couple of months when I bought him - he spooked at something, turned and went straight through a barbed wire fence on a hack. However, he never did that again.  

OP, have you told the previous owners - they're your first port of call IMO, they know the horse far better than any of us and you said they had a close bond so hopefully she'd be really honest and helpful.


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## Akkalia1 (26 June 2018)

Goldenstar said:



			If you can send him back do so without delay .
This is not your problem to fix
		
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I strongly suspect she would take him back but I also strongly suspect there would be no refund. Not sure what to do in this case. I don't want to lose the money but I don't really want to have to try and sell him. 

I think if he goes back I don't have the energy to try this again. After losing the first one to grass sickness and then coming close to serious injury on the second I think I'll just stick with my mare. Do the dressage we enjoy and work on getting her out boxed out to hacks in places where there is far less big traffic.


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## Goldenstar (26 June 2018)

Akkalia1 said:



			I strongly suspect she would take him back but I also strongly suspect there would be no refund. Not sure what to do in this case. I don't want to lose the money but I don't really want to have to try and sell him. 

I think if he goes back I don't have the energy to try this again. After losing the first one to grass sickness and then coming close to serious injury on the second I think I'll just stick with my mare. Do the dressage we enjoy and work on getting her out boxed out to hacks in places where there is far less big traffic.
		
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Take proper advice if you car BHS gold member use the legal helpline or sometimes some fire legal advice is part of your home insurance .
She can&#8217;t just keep your money .
Just because she&#8217;s a private owner does not mean she&#8217;s can sell you a safe bombproof hack that goes over wire fences .
I don&#8217;t know how much you paid but I would be prepared if I where you to lose a bit of the purchase price  to get out of it quickly and without fuss .
And learn from this , the signs where there walk away if you are unsure .
There are loads of thing I could tell you to try to get through this with the horse but I just don&#8217;t think you should do when your guts tell this is wrong and when you are riding the other horse and are happy listen  to your sixth sense .
Nothing is worse than getting smashed up by a badly trained boneheaded idiot of a horse when your guts where telling you not to do it .


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## fredflop (26 June 2018)

I'd certainly class one of my horses as a bombproof/safe hack, as she is safe in all traffic, even the largest of lorries. However for a novice/nervous rider she'd be a nightmare to hack as she's so spooky, she'd have them off in two minutes!


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## blitznbobs (26 June 2018)

fredflop said:



			I'd certainly class one of my horses as a bombproof/safe hack, as she is safe in all traffic, even the largest of lorries. However for a novice/nervous rider she'd be a nightmare to hack as she's so spooky, she'd have them off in two minutes!
		
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How can a bombproof horse be spooky?


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## MotherOfChickens (26 June 2018)

blitznbobs said:



			How can a bombproof horse be spooky?
		
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maybe not but my last horse was completely 100% in all traffic at all times. he could be a spooky prat but never, ever on the road-if I thought he was going to be fresh I would do road work with him. so bombproof in traffic but not with large rocks and daffodils.


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## Highflinger (26 June 2018)

I have not read all the replies but I had a similar situation with my new horse last year..  He took a good three months to settle.  He reared, spun ,napped, constantly spooked initially but is now a fabulous hack. I am nervous and was looking for a safe kick along hack. When I tried him the ground was awful so could only walk around a small muddy paddock ( no hacking available) and he was a slow, slow plod. His owner assured me he was a safe quiet hack and gave me a months trial she was so convinced he was ok.  Our first hack was awful - he spun, jogged, neighed constantly - when I contacted his owner she was amazed and said he had never jogged with her and didn't think he was capable! I didn't think she would have given me a month's trial if he was anything other than as described so I persevered but he reared ( only small) and spooked and spun a lot for at least three weeks and I got off and walked more than I rode! He was slightly better after a month and his owner agreed to a further months trial she was so sure he would be ok.  At the end of the second month he had improved a lot so I bought him - a further three months on and he is a lovely chilled hack.  I led him a short route a couple of times, then rode the same route for the bits I felt safe and led the other  bits until I gradually rode the whole route.  - it was slow progress but it worked for us. -Good luck.


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## ester (26 June 2018)

I guess the same as the cavalry dude said the other day that mass flag waving crowds are fine, the odd crisp packet remains an issue. 

If you want a quiet life you ride mine down the A38, next to the high speed railway or across the motorway, seems to keep the mind busy from finding idle things to worry about like purple flowers.


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## blitznbobs (26 June 2018)

Yes my mare has a thing about one particular sprig of cow parsley ...so I pulled it up and she promptly ate it .... fickle cow!


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## AandK (26 June 2018)

blitznbobs said:



			How can a bombproof horse be spooky?
		
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It depends on how you're using the term 'bombproof'.  My 21yo TB is bombproof in traffic, massive lorries/tractors/rattly trailers/motorbikes/scooters etc, he will not bat an eye (quite literally now, as he only has one!).  However, show him a drain cover or patch of new tarmac and he will have a good spook!  He is generally laid back but definitely has a TB brain and can be sharp at times so would not be suitable for a novice or nervous rider.


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## eggs (26 June 2018)

Having read your posts and the various replies it would certainly seem that this is not the bombproof hack you thought you were buying.  I also don't have any truck with this 'bonding' thing.   FWIW it wouldn't bother me that the horse had a standing martingale on when you tried him the second time although the fact that she had both a pelham and standing martingale would suggest that they had had to be used in the past.

If you like the horse in other ways it would be worth getting some-one like Michael Peace to get him going out hacking although this won't be a cheap option.  It does sound as though the issues could be fixed but it does depend on how much you want to keep this horse.


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## JFTDWS (26 June 2018)

To me "bombproof" is "doesn't over-react to the unexpected", not "good in traffic", which would be described as - well - "good in traffic".  They're entirely different things - my least bombproof horse is saintly in all traffic, from squeezing past tractors on narrow roads, through cars and motorbikes haring past at speed, to meeting emergency vehicles with their sirens on without flinching.  He jumps out of his skin at pigeons flying up in the distance, stares in horror at suspicious butterflies, and has been known to spin because a patch of grass looks funny.  My most bombproof horse - his evil twin - doesn't care about anything like that, but does find heavy traffic a bit overwhelming (though he remains pretty mannerly - you just feel him tense up).


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## AandK (26 June 2018)

JFTD said:



			To me "bombproof" is "doesn't over-react to the unexpected", not "good in traffic", which would be described as - well - "good in traffic".  They're entirely different things - my least bombproof horse is saintly in all traffic, from squeezing past tractors on narrow roads, through cars and motorbikes haring past at speed, to meeting emergency vehicles with their sirens on without flinching.  He jumps out of his skin at pigeons flying up in the distance, stares in horror at suspicious butterflies, and has been known to spin because a patch of grass looks funny.  My most bombproof horse - his evil twin - doesn't care about anything like that, but does find heavy traffic a bit overwhelming (though he remains pretty mannerly - you just feel him tense up).
		
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The OP makes reference to him being bombproof in traffic in her first post.  Bombproof is a term that is open to varying interpretation, there was a similar post on a FB group recently.

OP if you like the horse enough, then it may be worth trying to get some help to see if the hacking issue resolves itself.  If you feel that one hack has done too much damage trust and confidence wise, then you will have to see if the old owner will take him back (and refund you!) or see if you can sell him.


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## JFTDWS (26 June 2018)

AandK said:



			The OP makes reference to him being bombproof in traffic in her first post.  Bombproof is a term that is open to varying interpretation, there was a similar post on a FB group recently.
		
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But we have digressed into a discussion in which someone described a horse as both bombproof and spooky which is - in my opinion - a contradiction in terms.


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## HashRouge (26 June 2018)

JFTD said:



			To me "bombproof" is "doesn't over-react to the unexpected", not "good in traffic", which would be described as - well - "good in traffic".
		
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I completely agree. Bombproof means exactly what it says - so good they wouldn't react to a bomb going off! Spooking at pigeons/ drain covers etc is not bomb proof, no matter how good the horse is in other ways.


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## Akkalia1 (27 June 2018)

JFTD said:



			But we have digressed into a discussion in which someone described a horse as both bombproof and spooky which is - in my opinion - a contradiction in terms.
		
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Quite. I wouldn't describe a horse that was spooky, especially one that was spooky enough to get people off, as bombproof. 

For what it's worth he does not seem spooky. During the times when he wasn't launching me into stuff he passed bags in bushes, went over bridges, past a school playground and had some cars pass pretty fast without a flinch. I mean he was still whinnying his head off but he does not seem the spooky sort in general.

On our second trial hack the park we were going round had a golf course in the middle. At some points we were very close to the tees so all of a sudden someone would tee off right next to us with a loud crack. Not bothered at all.


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## DabDab (27 June 2018)

Yes, from what you describe he doesn't sound spooky, just a bit prone to being silly and like he hasn't been taught to stand still. He almost just sounds a bit green, as in he has that baby horse tenancy for his brain and emotions to run away with themselves without regulation.


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## zaminda (27 June 2018)

I'm incredibly suspicious of the old owner I'm afraid. If my horse was great to ride, and never strong, I find it highly unlikely I would own a Pelham and a standing martingale. My old boy was fab, he had been strong when younger, which I would never have denied, but by 12 was an absolute dude, rideable by anyone. I would have expected him to get straight off the lorry and hack out in a new place with a total stranger. If he hadn't I would have been straight over to see what the devil was going on. I don't also understand why this horse was for sale if they were so 'bonded'.


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## honetpot (27 June 2018)

I can not understand why people seem to think that a horse has only one pattern of behaviour. A lot will have a trigger that will override any training and they go in to flight mode, where all they want to do is run away. 

I have had two which had this trigger that I would describe as bomb proof safe rides. One was frightened to death of being beaten if he did anything wrong, he never showed this behaviour with us but my daughter who was 14 had lessons with a 'pro' rider and she tried riding him and the horse became tense and unhappy soon as she got on and then as she tried to get hold of him basically bolted with her in the school and stuck himself in the corner a shivering wreck. He reverted back to his normal placid self when my daughter next rode him.

  The other is a Welsh A that we have owned most of his life, he did LR,PC, WHP and hunted with both my children and I would say he is one of the safest least reactive ponies we have ever owned. When the children grew too big I had him broken to drive, which he took to really well, but whilst out one day he became frightened of a plastic bag floating in the air about 15ft away from him and tried to bolt. I managed to stop him by running him into a gate. He is now petrified of plastic bags, not the ones held in your hands, he associates that with food, but bags that blown in the wind in his eye line.
    I would try to avoid hacking or keep to a route that you know he is happy with and hack with company and try and work out what the trigger and reduce both your stress levels. It may be that he will never over come it and you may have to move him on.
    As to the old owner taking him back. You can never really predict how a horse will react in a new environment, I bought a pony from a friend, I had known the pony for four years, we did PC and competitions together so he travelled with ours. After buying him I realised he had severe separation anxiety, you could not leave him tied up on his own, to the point I could not leave him to open the car boot when he was tied to the trailer. She didn't know and I didn't know this until we took him out on his own for the first time. When we moved yards to traditional stables I couldn't get him a stable without him trying to come out over the door for six months. Our previous stabling had grills or low partitions, so again this was not known behaviour. In every other way he was perfect and could be ridden by anyone.
  Horses teach you that you know nothing really.


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## bubsqueaks (27 June 2018)

honetpot said:



			I can not understand why people seem to think that a horse has only one pattern of behaviour. A lot will have a trigger that will override any training and they go in to flight mode, where all they want to do is run away. 

I have had two which had this trigger that I would describe as bomb proof safe rides. One was frightened to death of being beaten if he did anything wrong, he never showed this behaviour with us but my daughter who was 14 had lessons with a 'pro' rider and she tried riding him and the horse became tense and unhappy soon as she got on and then as she tried to get hold of him basically bolted with her in the school and stuck himself in the corner a shivering wreck. He reverted back to his normal placid self when my daughter next rode him.

  The other is a Welsh A that we have owned most of his life, he did LR,PC, WHP and hunted with both my children and I would say he is one of the safest least reactive ponies we have ever owned. When the children grew too big I had him broken to drive, which he took to really well, but whilst out one day he became frightened of a plastic bag floating in the air about 15ft away from him and tried to bolt. I managed to stop him by running him into a gate. He is now petrified of plastic bags, not the ones held in your hands, he associates that with food, but bags that blown in the wind in his eye line.
    I would try to avoid hacking or keep to a route that you know he is happy with and hack with company and try and work out what the trigger and reduce both your stress levels. It may be that he will never over come it and you may have to move him on.
    As to the old owner taking him back. You can never really predict how a horse will react in a new environment, I bought a pony from a friend, I had known the pony for four years, we did PC and competitions together so he travelled with ours. After buying him I realised he had severe separation anxiety, you could not leave him tied up on his own, to the point I could not leave him to open the car boot when he was tied to the trailer. She didn't know and I didn't know this until we took him out on his own for the first time. When we moved yards to traditional stables I couldn't get him a stable without him trying to come out over the door for six months. Our previous stabling had grills or low partitions, so again this was not known behaviour. In every other way he was perfect and could be ridden by anyone.
  Horses teach you that you know nothing really.
		
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So very true honetpot - you never quite know what uve got until uve got it & by then its too late! all us horse owners must just love the stress of it all!!!


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## Akkalia1 (27 June 2018)

zaminda said:



			I'm incredibly suspicious of the old owner I'm afraid. If my horse was great to ride, and never strong, I find it highly unlikely I would own a Pelham and a standing martingale. My old boy was fab, he had been strong when younger, which I would never have denied, but by 12 was an absolute dude, rideable by anyone. I would have expected him to get straight off the lorry and hack out in a new place with a total stranger. If he hadn't I would have been straight over to see what the devil was going on. I don't also understand why this horse was for sale if they were so 'bonded'.
		
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As I said earlier in the thread she is selling for her health reasons. Which seem legitimate.

As I also said, he wasn't in the pelham and standing for the first hack, only the second after I said I found him strong. She said she'd only used the pelham for the first couple of weeks riding after a yard move as that was the only time she'd found him strong. Videos and photos of him hacking with her in his old home show him in a snaffle and no martingale.

Maybe you're right and she has been dishonest, but currently I can't see any evidence of that. Barring his behaviour with me at the weekend obviously. But that could very well have been triggered but the situation. However, my problem is his reaction was so extreme I'm worried this could be a pattern that emerges when he's under some stress.


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## bubsqueaks (27 June 2018)

Akkalia1 said:



			As I said earlier in the thread she is selling for her health reasons. Which seem legitimate.

As I also said, he wasn't in the pelham and standing for the first hack, only the second after I said I found him strong. She said she'd only used the pelham for the first couple of weeks riding after a yard move as that was the only time she'd found him strong. Videos and photos of him hacking with her in his old home show him in a snaffle and no martingale.

Maybe you're right and she has been dishonest, but currently I can't see any evidence of that. Barring his behaviour with me at the weekend obviously. But that could very well have been triggered but the situation. However, my problem is his reaction was so extreme I'm worried this could be a pattern that emerges when he's under some stress.
		
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But "Akkalia" the reaction you had although was horrendous could be put down to - new home, new rider, mare in season, electric gates, change of very long term home - we bought a pony who jumped out of her stable the first night then tried to jump over breast bar four days later - but knowing her temperament we stuck with her & have worked through it - there's always going to be challenges & I think you can get through this with the old owner who you have seen on the videos hack him no problem - stick with him & at least give him the chance & time he deserves.


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## Akkalia1 (27 June 2018)

bubsqueaks said:



			But "Akkalia" the reaction you had although was horrendous could be put down to - new home, new rider, mare in season, electric gates, change of very long term home - we bought a pony who jumped out of her stable the first night then tried to jump over breast bar four days later - but knowing her temperament we stuck with her & have worked through it - there's always going to be challenges & I think you can get through this with the old owner who you have seen on the videos hack him no problem - stick with him & at least give him the chance & time he deserves.
		
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Yes it could well be. This is my dilemma. But it was a very dangerous reaction. I am going to get old owner down and will see how the next week or two goes but I have to say my gut still says this will not be the right horse for me.


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## bubsqueaks (27 June 2018)

Akkalia1 said:



			Yes it could well be. This is my dilemma. But it was a very dangerous reaction. I am going to get old owner down and will see how the next week or two goes but I have to say my gut still says this will not be the right horse for me.
		
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I know its very scary isn't it - when ours tried to jump breast bar I was blooming petrified & its taken a whole heap of time & money to get through it but we felt she was worth it - good luck I think youre doing the right thing trying to work through it together & if the situation doesn't improve then you always have options open to you.


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## JFTDWS (27 June 2018)

Jumping out of a stable or over a breast bar, while potentially serious, are hardly comparable with a horse throwing itself blindly through a fence / tree line with a rider on board.

The previous owner may be on the level, and this is a weird freak reaction from the horse, or she may be honest but have trained the horse very poorly (a lack of manners, worldly experience and tolerance of other riders), or she may have set you up to see him as something which he doesn't seem to be - a safe hack, which is what the OP set out to buy.

I have to say, if someone found one of my (not strong, snaffle-mouthed) horses strong, my response wouldn't be "come back and try again in a pelham", it would be that there's something amiss in the communication between horse and rider, and I'd suggest they find something else, or come back and try them under my supervision so I can see what's going wrong.


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## wren123 (27 June 2018)

JFTD

I have to say said:
			
		


			What a good point, I completely agree.
		
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## Goldenstar (27 June 2018)

JFTD said:



			Jumping out of a stable or over a breast bar, while potentially serious, are hardly comparable with a horse throwing itself blindly through a fence / tree line with a rider on board.

The previous owner may be on the level, and this is a weird freak reaction from the horse, or she may be honest but have trained the horse very poorly (a lack of manners, worldly experience and tolerance of other riders), or she may have set you up to see him as something which he doesn't seem to be - a safe hack, which is what the OP set out to buy.

I have to say, if someone found one of my (not strong, snaffle-mouthed) horses strong, my response wouldn't be "come back and try again in a pelham", it would be that there's something amiss in the communication between horse and rider, and I'd suggest they find something else, or come back and try them under my supervision so I can see what's going wrong.
		
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And if I was buying a safe easy hack I would say no thanks and move on .


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## Akkalia1 (27 June 2018)

Goldenstar said:



			And if I was buying a safe easy hack I would say no thanks and move on .
		
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Well yes, I suppose I got this wrong. Ignored a warning sign.


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## Akkalia1 (27 June 2018)

JFTD said:



			Jumping out of a stable or over a breast bar, while potentially serious, are hardly comparable with a horse throwing itself blindly through a fence / tree line with a rider on board.

The previous owner may be on the level, and this is a weird freak reaction from the horse, or she may be honest but have trained the horse very poorly (a lack of manners, worldly experience and tolerance of other riders), or she may have set you up to see him as something which he doesn't seem to be - a safe hack, which is what the OP set out to buy.

I have to say, if someone found one of my (not strong, snaffle-mouthed) horses strong, my response wouldn't be "come back and try again in a pelham", it would be that there's something amiss in the communication between horse and rider, and I'd suggest they find something else, or come back and try them under my supervision so I can see what's going wrong.
		
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Agree it's a different kettle of fish.

And well yes, this seems to have been my error in seeing her point about trying a pelham and he was blinking perfect in it. But I am where I am now unfortunately.


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## JFTDWS (27 June 2018)

Akkalia1 said:



			Well yes, I suppose I got this wrong. Ignored a warning sign.
		
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I don't think GS is trying to chastise you for ignoring a warning sign at the viewing - just saying there's no shame in saying that this is not the horse that you were trying to buy, and sending it back.

If it's any consolation - I ignored a warning sign at a viewing too, miscommunication with the mare caused her to knob off in the arena.  I bought her anyway, because I understood what had happened, and she has the best brakes of any horse I've ever had.  It's hard to predict how these things will pan out.


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## Meowy Catkin (27 June 2018)

My chestnut mare who I've had for years is a super hack. However I have had her at three different yards over that time and when I first moved her to yard number two, she turned into a rocket fueled, over-reactive, stress head. She took about three months (IIRC) to fully get back to her normal self. If I hadn't already owned her, I'd have been having all sorts of doubts and fears in my mind, but I knew it was the move and that she'd come right with time. The next time I moved her, two of her field mates came too and she took that one in her stride.


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## Akkalia1 (27 June 2018)

JFTD said:



			I don't think GS is trying to chastise you for ignoring a warning sign at the viewing - just saying there's no shame in saying that this is not the horse that you were trying to buy, and sending it back.
		
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I didn't mean to sound offended, I'm not. I can see the point that I may have made a bit of a mistake here. I'm not entirely sure how easy it is going to be to send the horse back now actually. Owner is coming completely out of horses due to health problems and selling box etc, so while I initially thought she'd take him back I'm not so sure now. Will see though!


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## Highflinger (27 June 2018)

If the previous owner is able to come over it may be worth hacking out with her riding and you walking.  I do understand that the first hack was awful and has put you off but my new boy was awful for quite a few hacks early on but he settled eventually  - rightly or wrongly I dismounted whenever I thought there was danger - it took the pressure off me as I knew I could get off if I didn't feel safe  ( am nervous so it didn't take much for me to get off) and I think just walking with him helped build a bond.  I do think you need to give him more time to settle as some do freak in a new home. When I think what my boy was like 9 months ago to now - chalk and cheese. The first time he saw another horse cantering in the early days he reared and spun and jogged - now his hacking mate can canter off and he carries on plodding along on the buckle. 
Regarding the Pelham another of mine  was in a Kimblewick when I bought him as his owner said he could be strong at times - he is now ridden in a rope halter with no bit ( hacking, jumping  and cross country)and is never strong - very forward going but stops easily.


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## Goldenstar (27 June 2018)

Akkalia1 said:



			Well yes, I suppose I got this wrong. Ignored a warning sign.
		
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I did not mean that unkindly have you made any progress .


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## Amymay (27 June 2018)

But "Akkalia" the reaction you had although was horrendous could be put down to - new home, new rider, mare in season, electric gates, change of very long term home
		
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B*ll*cks


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## Goldenstar (27 June 2018)

amymay said:



			B*ll*cks
		
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Exactly on the trial the horse was strong .
OP then tried it again in a Pelham and standing martingale which of course the seller just happened to have to hand when this not strong horse was strong. And then said horse had to be in front on the hack .


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## Akkalia1 (28 June 2018)

Goldenstar said:



			I did not mean that unkindly have you made any progress .
		
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I know you didn't. 

Rode him last night in the field and he was fine. Then took him along to the end of our road and back. He was ok although calling again. I asked him to stand several times, which he did although fairly reluctantly. Last time I asked him to stand though which was back near the stables he started prancing and although I got him to stand briefly if I'd pushed the situation and asked him to stand for any longer there would have been a reaction. He was getting wound up. Had him in his snaffle with no martingale.

Going to do this again tonight and tomorrow and stick the brave pants on and just make him stand when he doesn't want to and see what happens.

I think there is a basic issue with asking him to stand and if he really doesn't want to do it he's going to lose it. I also think there is a real issue with having a horse alongside. Fixable problems I'd imagine and possibly not too difficult if you take away the additional separation issues from my mare, but having spent a long time sorting issues with her this is not really what I wanted. Especially issues which could very easily end up injuring me! Seems like the first hack is probably more like what I can expect from him on a good day and I should have not been swayed by the second hack. Oooops.


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## Goldenstar (28 June 2018)

Ride him in a standing martingale if you don&#8217;t want to don&#8217;t go out with out a neck strap.
That sounds like a more fixable if you have time and the inclination.
The horse along side him would be a deal breaker for me he&#8217;s sounds spoilt as if he&#8217;s never been made to accept things he finds exciting .
You need to ride him out daily and if he arrived here I would be riding him twice a day seven days a week I would get him so tired he would long to stand and be dreaming of being put in the stable for a sleep .
I would also be in the school teasing out the training and finding out what been missed in his early training because that&#8217;s where this will have started .
I usually would suggest you train him to lead from your other horse and that you do a lot of walking like this this would get him used to plodding about with another horse , but I would worry he would get more attached to the mare .
I like a project but are you this is what you really need to decide .


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## cauda equina (28 June 2018)

Groundwork would probably help too; getting a good 'park' from the ground improves the stopping/standing when ridden


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## Akkalia1 (28 June 2018)

Goldenstar said:



			Ride him in a standing martingale if you don&#8217;t want to don&#8217;t go out with out a neck strap.
That sounds like a more fixable if you have time and the inclination.
The horse along side him would be a deal breaker for me he&#8217;s sounds spoilt as if he&#8217;s never been made to accept things he finds exciting .
You need to ride him out daily and if he arrived here I would be riding him twice a day seven days a week I would get him so tired he would long to stand and be dreaming of being put in the stable for a sleep .
I would also be in the school teasing out the training and finding out what been missed in his early training because that&#8217;s where this will have started .
I usually would suggest you train him to lead from your other horse and that you do a lot of walking like this this would get him used to plodding about with another horse , but I would worry he would get more attached to the mare .
I like a project but are you this is what you really need to decide .
		
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I think I will stick a standing martingale on him but will prob stick with the snaffle. Pelham didn't exactly help me at the weekend.
When I ride him in the field (no school on site although we are in the process of making one), it takes a while before he'll properly listen to me asking to slow down, but he will and by the end I'm able to trot him round without him constantly trying to up his pace. He is over reactive to the leg so any leg makes him just shoot forward, therefore difficult to make him bend. And resistant to rein aids, prone to head tossing when he's not wanting to slow or stop.

I already have one project, not massively keen on another!! He's meant to be my break from the madness.


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## Akkalia1 (28 June 2018)

cauda equina said:



			Groundwork would probably help too; getting a good 'park' from the ground improves the stopping/standing when ridden
		
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He's actually very very good in hand and will stop and stand for as long as you like!


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## DabDab (28 June 2018)

Oh goodness, he really does sound green as grass - what a shame, as it sounds like you're quite fond of him when he's not being a twit.

I have had 2 horses to re school who had zero stand command in any but the most dull situation (just rearing and leaping instead), and I think that it is possibly one of the most irritating habits a horse can pick up, so you do have my sympathies.


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## Goldenstar (28 June 2018)

He does not sound like a break from madness .
I really would tell the seller hes not the easy hack she sold him as and get your money or the vast majority of your money back .


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## southerncomfort (28 June 2018)

Goldenstar said:



			He does not sound like a break from madness .
I really would tell the seller he&#8217;s not the easy hack she sold him as and get your money or the vast majority of your money back .
		
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I agree with this.  You sound like you are perfectly able to sort out his issues but as you say, that isn't what you wanted.  You specifically wanted a nice easy hack and he is definitely not that.

Personally, I'd be letting the seller know now that you aren't happy and don't think he will settle with you.  I really feel for you, this must be so frustrating and disheartening.


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## Merrymoles (28 June 2018)

I think it is easy to under-estimate how much a move can unsettle some horses, especially when they have not seen or done a lot in the previous homes.

OP, I had very similar issues with my horse when I bought him six years ago. He also has the "turbo walk" reaction to stress and I had my share of fly bucks, mini rears and going down ditches. His default setting was to canter round the yard the minute anyone (including my instructor) got on him.  I also found him strong and at one point tried a Pelham but that, if anything, made him worse. He also had a meltdown the first time I opened the yard's new electric gates. However, he is also fantastic with tractors, combines, motorbikes, etc (though more worried about multiple cyclists, though that has improved too) and I had the time and energy to persist with our hacking issues and he is now a different horse. I doubt he will ever be the most relaxing hack in the world as I do have to be aware of his foibles but there are times we can slop along on the buckle end now.

What helped was doing the same, shortish route a lot, stopping to chat to people we met along the way during which he had to stand, and being utterly consistent with my reactions.

BUT it has been a long road to get to where we are now. He is naturally anxious and I think moving several times in the 18 months before I bought him was too much for him to cope with. In the first week I owned him, he jumped out of his stable, complete with turnout rug, twice. He bit hard and generally wasn't nice to be around. Since I have had him, he has moved twice but has settled much more quickly now that he has consistency in his handling.

So my advice is that if you can't face a long haul, I'd send yours back. The rewards have been enormous with mine but there have been times I could have cried!


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## Red-1 (28 June 2018)

If you are not happy and the previous owner will take him back then this would seem to be the way to go (even if you take a loss). 

However... I have personal knowledge of some horses who were lovely in an old home, but went off the scale when moved homes. Each time they were a more numb, heavy type. They were deemed suitable for a novice in a previous home, and they were indeed safely ridden by novices.

I think the problem came when the horses were used to making their own decisions as the novices did not. In short they were not used to being submissive to the rider's requests. They were quiet and doing OK because they were in their comfort zone. They were not what I would call 'well trained' - which to me means conditioned to conform to rider's quests.


In fact, one was so bad I got to know him as the new owner called me in as an 'expert witness' to see the horse and make a statement as to his mis-sale as a quite hack (with court proceedings in mind). He took the (brought in) experienced rider clean through a bush. He scraped the rider down a fence. He jigged and jogged, whinnied and had a right old carry on.

I did not take the job (no charge) as I could not hand n heart say that the horse was a mis-sale (long ago that it was under the old rules for a private sale - so only had to be what the previous owner believed and not necessarily fit for the purpose sold as is now). 

The horse had some schooling and within a couple of months was the best horse. A fabulous hack. Did small comps too. She was glad she had stuck with it.

Another was a Police horse that we borrowed from an adjoining force. I had seen the horse when I had been at the yard for assessing their candidates. He was a true schoolmaster. He was a bit dull and lazy, but he did what was asked, jumped whatever small fence was infront of him. I specifically asked to borrow him as he was just what we needed for a rider who was returning from injury. Small (well, 16.1 but for us that was small as at the time our force had a 17hh min height), quiet, schooled...


He was a nightmare at first! Dragged people round the yard, was nappy to ride. The poor horse had been in the same home since a 4 yo, and he was around 17yrs then. At first I had to ride him myself, not what we wanted. He most certainly was not like that at home. Very soon though he was back to himself, super on the school and a doddle on the yard.


We returned him after a few months, he remained a doddle and a ride for a new person in the Police environment he was used to. A couple of years later he retired, now 19 years old. The new home was idyllic for a retiree. Treated like a lord and had to do nothing but a bit of light hacking in return. They returned him as totally unsuitable. This a horse who had proved himself time and time again, he just needed leadership in a new home as some of his confidence had been through the familiarity of his routine.


So, return him if you are not happy, but if you cannot don't despair. I think the less schooled, more native type are often ridden on their goodwill, and if their conditions change it can shake them more than a highly trained horse that gets its confidence from the constant complying with commands and the release from that.

Your horse indeed has a declared history of not being quite so quiet and compliant  when conditions change, so the improvement is there for the taking. I would still return if you can though, as you wanted a 'made' hacker, not a project. I do think you may be surprised how quickly he could come round though if returning is not a possibility.


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## antigone (28 June 2018)

Red-1 said:



			I think the less schooled, more native type are often ridden on their goodwill, and if their conditions change it can shake them more than a highly trained horse that gets its confidence from the constant complying with commands and the release from that.
		
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I think this is so true especially when they have limited experience of life. My gelding was a nightmare when I got him age 10. He had been with the same owner since he was three. She just schooled him at home and hacked out. I tried him several times before buying and he was an angel. Moving blew his mind. 

I also think cobs can be far more sensitive than people think. He used to "keep his cards close to his chest" and unless you are looking for it you miss the bit before they become overwhelmed.


He turned into my horse of a lifetime but it did cost a lot of time and money. Not what you wanted. I suppose it depends how much you like the horse whether the effort is worth it for you.


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## Goldenstar (28 June 2018)

What Red-1 is describing is what I call common purpose horses they are not correctly trained they have simply worked with their rider a system that works for them it&#8217;s not based on a proper system that leaves the horse in a system where the horse can obey aids from any competent rider.
These horses lack the basic training that makes change easy for them handle .


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## honetpot (28 June 2018)

I have loaned my ponies out several times, and its as much about picking the right home experience wise, and its the same when you sell.

  I always think it takes two years to train a horse to a basic standard. Our quite young maxi cob at his first show at four, he just went for the outing, spent five hours trying to drag me round the showground The next time we could tie him to the lorry safely. We try and never do the same thing two days running and change the hack routes as much as possible and what we do its never in the same place twice.
  Standing and waiting is part of the training, going in front and behind, and not to get upset if they are left. Equine hide and seek, a trip to the shop, asking them to over things( where it is safe to do so), even if they do not jump it. Learning when not to push a horse till it boils over but at the same time adding an extra stimulus that it has to adjust to.
  Everyone is so obsessed with, on the bit, that they forget that getting the horse to accept the bit and your commands is more important.
There are so many people now that think training a horse happens only on a rectangular surface. In a way the rough ponies from Ireland I rode in my youth, who knew nothing about leg aids had a better basic training for life than a lot of the young animals I see today despite the all the knowledge people have access to now.


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## Ellietotz (19 July 2018)

Any update OP?


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## Orangehorse (19 July 2018)

Goldenstar said:



			What Red-1 is describing is what I call common purpose horses they are not correctly trained they have simply worked with their rider a system that works for them it&#8217;s not based on a proper system that leaves the horse in a system where the horse can obey aids from any competent rider.
These horses lack the basic training that makes change easy for them handle .
		
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This is true.  I know a lady who breeds Highlands and one who breeds Haflingers and they said the same.  People take advantage of their quiet nature, but don't school them correctly and then run into problems later.  Having said that, it is hard work bringing on and schooling ponies, and not everyone wants to do this, or spend the time it will take.


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## sarahann1 (19 July 2018)

honetpot said:



			I can not understand why people seem to think that a horse has only one pattern of behaviour. A lot will have a trigger that will override any training and they go in to flight mode, where all they want to do is run away. 

I have had two which had this trigger that I would describe as bomb proof safe rides. One was frightened to death of being beaten if he did anything wrong, he never showed this behaviour with us but my daughter who was 14 had lessons with a 'pro' rider and she tried riding him and the horse became tense and unhappy soon as she got on and then as she tried to get hold of him basically bolted with her in the school and stuck himself in the corner a shivering wreck. He reverted back to his normal placid self when my daughter next rode him.

  The other is a Welsh A that we have owned most of his life, he did LR,PC, WHP and hunted with both my children and I would say he is one of the safest least reactive ponies we have ever owned. When the children grew too big I had him broken to drive, which he took to really well, but whilst out one day he became frightened of a plastic bag floating in the air about 15ft away from him and tried to bolt. I managed to stop him by running him into a gate. He is now petrified of plastic bags, not the ones held in your hands, he associates that with food, but bags that blown in the wind in his eye line.
    I would try to avoid hacking or keep to a route that you know he is happy with and hack with company and try and work out what the trigger and reduce both your stress levels. It may be that he will never over come it and you may have to move him on.
    As to the old owner taking him back. You can never really predict how a horse will react in a new environment, I bought a pony from a friend, I had known the pony for four years, we did PC and competitions together so he travelled with ours. After buying him I realised he had severe separation anxiety, you could not leave him tied up on his own, to the point I could not leave him to open the car boot when he was tied to the trailer. She didn't know and I didn't know this until we took him out on his own for the first time. When we moved yards to traditional stables I couldn't get him a stable without him trying to come out over the door for six months. Our previous stabling had grills or low partitions, so again this was not known behaviour. In every other way he was perfect and could be ridden by anyone.
  Horses teach you that you know nothing really.
		
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^^^^This^^^^

My wee mare is great, I hacked her out when I tried her, rode her both at the initial viewing and the vetting, no hints of anything untoward at all. I needed a safe horse for my cowardly riding ways and she ticked the boxes.

Then I got her home, moving her *really* unsettled her, she tried to tell me that she was spooky, that she had an attitude and she generally wasn't as safe as she'd made out when I tried her. She reversed at ditches on her first hack, pranced around the arena and was more than a bit strong at times. BUT I kept in mind how she'd been when I tried her, I knew there was a lovely horse in there and persevered, and I'm so, so glad I did, she's blimin marvelous now. It took about 3 monthsish for her to fully settle and for me to get to know how to find her buttons.


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## OWLIE185 (19 July 2018)

I think that the seller has been dishonest.  If a horse is advertised as laid, back bomb proof and spook proof and can be ridden by anyone then you should be able to get on in the heaviest of traffic on a loose rein and plod it about without it reacting. You have been done and the advert is a misrepresentation of what was sold.  Send it back and get another one.


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## Pearlsasinger (19 July 2018)

antigone said:



			I think this is so true especially when they have limited experience of life. My gelding was a nightmare when I got him age 10. He had been with the same owner since he was three. She just schooled him at home and hacked out. I tried him several times before buying and he was an angel. Moving blew his mind. 

I also think cobs can be far more sensitive than people think. He used to "keep his cards close to his chest" and unless you are looking for it you miss the bit before they become overwhelmed.


He turned into my horse of a lifetime but it did cost a lot of time and money. Not what you wanted. I suppose it depends how much you like the horse whether the effort is worth it for you.
		
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Many, many years ago (just at the end of the miners' strike) sis and I bought an Appaloosa mare together.  I tried her at the RS  in S.Yorks, where I was told that she was on selling livery, she was absolutely foot perfect, I saw her ridden by a staff member (afaik) and then rode her myself, with no niggles at all.  She was delivered, in a trailer,  to the livery where we intended to keep her and they were over an hour late (only about an hour's journey max), with no real explanation.  She stayed in overnight and then walked through the village to the field where she was to graze, very quiet, no problems.

Until the next day when she was a nightmare, on the ground, ridden, you name it!  It was a though a switch had been flipped! 

6 weeks later we decided to move yards, we led her to the new yard, as we thought that trying to load her would just add the problems, she appeared to be claustrophobic.  About a third of the way to the new yard we had got so fed up of her antics and so physically tired that we seriously thought of leaving her in a field at the side of the road and (maybe)  coming back to collect her after we had all had a rest.  

However, we persevered and after a short walk along a bridleway, through a farmyard, almost exactly halfway into the journey, it was as if the 'good' switch had been flipped back.  She was never an easy horse, in many respects but she certainly was much improved on the first 6 weeks.

But I think she had been allowed to do almost exactly as she liked in her previous home, she had lived out 24/7,  and she really didn't appreciate the rider having any input.  She was a perfect true beginner's ride because she was so comfortable and smooth.  Her 2 saving graces were that she came to call, from the word 'go' and she never lost a rider (not sure how she managed that).

We kept her for another 22 yrs  and thought the world of her until she had to be pts aged 31 but she was dreadfully hard work in the beginning.


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## HorseyTee (27 July 2018)

Any news? Did the previous owner come over?


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