# A good cross for a short legged Jack Russell?



## Sun (23 December 2010)

i have a lovely short legged jack russell female, and I have been wondering what would make a good cross with her?

She is a super girl and a typical Jack Russell in that she is very independant, she was difficult to house train, but we got there in the end. The pups would be companion pets for mum & me, but I dont want to take pure bred JRs off her as mums last JR died last year (she had two for years) and I would prefer to get more lap orientated bloodlines.

I thought maybe Mini Dachshund?

And before anyone gets on to me for not rehoming dogs in need, I have two that i rehomed who I have had for over 12 years and are in their twilight years.


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## BigRed (23 December 2010)

I have a small lurcher who's father was a JRT and the Mother a Whippet.  It was an accidental breeding.  If you want a lapdog you will find it hard to get a better one than a whippet or a whippet x.  They curl up like cats.  Fortunately as the mother is the JRT you are more likely to have a nice small litter.  Try and find someone with a whippet dog.


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## cobgirlie (23 December 2010)

I won't get on to you about rehoming a dog in need, but why add to the numbers of unwanted by having a litter???? I have at least 4 JRT crosses available for rehoming right now.  Look at The Little Dog Rescue site, Many Tears..hell any rescue site you can find. Have you got homes for the 6+ pups she might have, have you got enough money if she gets into trouble and needs a c section? Do you have the ability and confidence of raising a litter? Can you guaranteed 100% that every puppy will go to a loving kind home where it will be nuetured and not contribute to the thousands of dogs being PTS in our shelters and pounds every single year?

In answer to your question though...absolutely no cross would be 'good' for your dog.


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## Foxyfilly (23 December 2010)

cobgirlie said:



			I won't get on to you about rehoming a dog in need, but why add to the numbers of unwanted by having a litter???? I have at least 4 JRT crosses available for rehoming right now.  Look at The Little Dog Rescue site, Many Tears..hell any rescue site you can find. Have you got homes for the 6+ pups she might have, have you got enough money if she gets into trouble and needs a c section? Do you have the ability and confidence of raising a litter? Can you guaranteed 100% that every puppy will go to a loving kind home where it will be nuetured and not contribute to the thousands of dogs being PTS in our shelters and pounds every single year?

In answer to your question though...absolutely no cross would be 'good' for your dog. 

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Amen! My exact thoughts...


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## Red30563 (23 December 2010)

Sorry, OP, I have to agree with Cobgirlie too.


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## BigRed (23 December 2010)

I think as the OP clearly said, she was breeding the puppies for herself and her mother, she never once mentioned she was breeding to sell them. So there is no need for anyone to give her a hysterical lecture about the evils of dog breeding or how everyone should take a rescue dog.


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## Foxyfilly (23 December 2010)

So if the bitch has 9 pups - she'll keep them all? Whatever


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## cobgirlie (23 December 2010)

BigRed said:



			I think as the OP clearly said, she was breeding the puppies for herself and her mother, she never once mentioned she was breeding to sell them. So there is no need for anyone to give her a hysterical lecture about the evils of dog breeding or how everyone should take a rescue dog.
		
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Really??? So she's going to keep all 12 puppy's the dog could potentially have? Or is it possible now to order the number of dogs produced? Wow now that is clever.  Hardly hysterical either, walk a minute in someone elses shoes and maybe just maybe you'll understand where they are coming from. 

Today I've well and truly had enough of people. Today I have collected a dog dumped outside a kennels at 5am. Today I have arranged rescue places for 3 elderly dogs surrendered to the pound. Today I have listened to yet another idiot telling me they have bought their 3 year old a puppy for Christmas...well guess who's doorstep they'll be dumping the puppy on next year!!?

Polite and patient today is in short supply.


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## Pegs (23 December 2010)

I have a JRT cross mini dauxie who came to us as a rescue (prob ex puppy farm) and i have to say that she is the best dog ever, not really a lap dog as happy to go off for 6 mile walks but also happy to cuddle up in from of the tv. Not sure if i would ever intentionally bred this cross though as dauxies do suffer with their long backs and also as already mentioned on here there are plenty of little terrier crosses in rescues all looking for lovely homes. Would your mother not prefer to go to a local rescue and pick out another little dog for herself, esp if you adiment that she does not want a full JRT?


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## Foxyfilly (23 December 2010)

Jack russells are not lap dogs and neither are dachshunds. They are both
working breeds who will need decent exersise.


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## Vizslak (23 December 2010)

Sun said:



			i have a lovely short legged jack russell female, and I have been wondering what would make a good cross with her?

She is a super girl and a typical Jack Russell in that she is very independant, she was difficult to house train, but we got there in the end. The pups would be companion pets for mum & me, but I dont want to take pure bred JRs off her as mums last JR died last year (she had two for years) and I would prefer to get more lap orientated bloodlines.

I thought maybe Mini Dachshund?

And before anyone gets on to me for not rehoming dogs in need, I have two that i rehomed who I have had for over 12 years and are in their twilight years.
		
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I hope you are doing a spot of christmas trolling and are not serious


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## Sun (23 December 2010)

GET OFF YOUR HIGH HORSE Cobgirl! You dont know me, yes actually I do have $$$ to care for my dogs. Who are you to just PRESUME I am a lowlife idiot unable to fully think through my actions. I have rescued several dogs over a 30 year period including a pregnant bitch who was on death row, I ensured EVERY pup went to the right home despite her producing 9 huge black pups of unknown farther. I still own that dog who may only be with me anther 6 months due to old age. I have spayed & neatured every dog/cat I have ever owned, except this JRT whom is my soul mate and who I intend to always have her bloodlines around me till the day I die. 

so I do NOT have a guilty conscious regarding this subject, and clearly this os not a place for me to come for some sensible dog chat!


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## soloabe (23 December 2010)

Sun said:



			so I do NOT have a guilty conscious regarding this subject, and clearly this os not a place for me to come for some sensible dog chat!
		
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Its not a place for BYB, indiscriminate breeder to come. BYE!


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## brighteyes (23 December 2010)

Ah, but can you guarantee good homes for every pup and that they won't be indiscriminately bred from?


I have loved all 5 bitches that I have owned passionately - but I never once considered breeding from them.  Get a rescue and forget about 'lines' - you sound like you are about to dilute/corrupt them anyway.  Why not go for a clone instead?


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## Sun (23 December 2010)

Vizslak said:



			I hope you are doing a spot of christmas trolling and are not serious 

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So right, you also on your high horse too! go on then, is that the best you can say on the matter?


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## soloabe (23 December 2010)

I have nothing more to say on the matter thanks


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## Sun (23 December 2010)

katielou said:



			i have nothing more to say on the matter thanks 

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good!


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## 3DE (23 December 2010)

Why would anyone intentionally breed a mongrel?!?!? There are enough pure bred dogs needing rehoming - why would anyone choose a crossbreed?

The only decent thing to breed another JR to is another JR. And even then only from heath tested, proven parents.


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## Sun (23 December 2010)

BigRed said:



			I have a small lurcher who's father was a JRT and the Mother a Whippet.  It was an accidental breeding.  If you want a lapdog you will find it hard to get a better one than a whippet or a whippet x.  They curl up like cats.  Fortunately as the mother is the JRT you are more likely to have a nice small litter.  Try and find someone with a whippet dog.
		
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Yes mum likes the idea of whippet x ) though my bitch may be a little too small for a whippet.


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## honeymum (23 December 2010)

Pegs said:



			I have a JRT cross mini dauxie who came to us as a rescue (prob ex puppy farm) and i have to say that she is the best dog ever, not really a lap dog as happy to go off for 6 mile walks but also happy to cuddle up in from of the tv. Not sure if i would ever intentionally bred this cross though as dauxies do suffer with their long backs and also as already mentioned on here there are plenty of little terrier crosses in rescues all looking for lovely homes. Would your mother not prefer to go to a local rescue and pick out another little dog for herself, esp if you adiment that she does not want a full JRT?
		
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Totally agree with this IF you HAVE to breed from her don't use a Daxie, my little cross is part Daxie and I have spent literally hundreds of pounds on her back at the vets. The JRT part of her says run and jump and twist round in the air playing, and then her back goes and she's on painkillers and anti-inflamatories for days.


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## Vizslak (23 December 2010)

Sun said:



			So right, you also on your high horse too! go on then, is that the best you can say on the matter?
		
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Nope I'm not on my high anything. 

The short answer to your original post is NOTHING.


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## Sun (23 December 2010)

Christmas_Crackers said:



			Why would anyone intentionally breed a mongrel?!?!? There are enough pure bred dogs needing rehoming - why would anyone choose a crossbreed?

The only decent thing to breed another JR to is another JR. And even then only from heath tested, proven parents.
		
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EH?? whats wrong with crossbreds? I have in the main only had crossbreds. Many breeds lend them well to cross breeding, I was onyl enqiring if anyone knew any good crosses for a JRT... I wasnt about to create a mutant for the sake of it!


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## soloabe (23 December 2010)

At least tell us has your bitch had her hips, elbows and eyes scored?


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## Vizslak (23 December 2010)

Sun said:



			EH?? whats wrong with crossbreds? I have in the main only had crossbreds. Many breeds lend them well to cross breeding, I was onyl enqiring if anyone knew any good crosses for a JRT... I wasnt about to create a mutant for the sake of it!
		
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This highlights exactly why you shouldnt be considering breeding at all.


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## Sun (23 December 2010)

Vizslak said:



			Nope I'm not on my high anything. 

The short answer to your original post is NOTHING.
		
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Yes you are, and thank you, I asked you for your opinion and you gave it.


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## Sun (23 December 2010)

Vizslak said:



			This highlights exactly why you shouldnt be considering breeding at all.
		
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In your opinion.


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## Brownmare (23 December 2010)

It never ceases to amaze me how cross people get when they don't get unanimous agreement when posting on a public forum 

And for the record - I can see the point in crossbreeds and have owned some lovely ones but if you want one then rescue one! IMHO trying to recreate your JRT will only end in heartache for the dog as well as you if it doesn't turn out to have the same character as your Soul Mate (and remember this is highly likely if you breed a mongrel)


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## Vizslak (23 December 2010)

In my opinion, more informed and educated than your own, yes.


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## Sun (23 December 2010)

Brownmare said:



			It never ceases to amaze me how cross people get when they don't get unanimous agreement when posting on a public forum 

And for the record - I can see the point in crossbreeds and have owned some lovely ones but if you want one then rescue one! IMHO trying to recreate your JRT will only end in heartache for the dog as well as you if it doesn't turn out to have the same character as your Soul Mate (and remember this is highly likely if you breed a mongrel)
		
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Well yes, I did think of that alot, there are a few good JRT stud dogs around my area, but they are all from the same bloodlines so wasnt sure breeding her to a close relative was a good idea. I breed horses, and my experience of linebreeding is not good but also not what I want to get into.

I have looked at a lot of rescue centres. And of course keep a close eye on the rescue centre where we got our last two from, however they seem seem to have mainlyy big breeds, Staffies and really huge crossbreeds and collies, none of which are suitable for my mother. The new hounds have to fit into our farm life I prefer a small breed, female. My JRT is an excellent example, and if I cant find any opions on suitable crosses, I will possbily travel out of the area to find her a suitable JRT mate.


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## Sun (23 December 2010)

Vizslak said:



			In my opinion, more informed and educated than your own, yes.
		
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Sure you like to think that x is the dog draped in rossettes in your avtar a rescue then?


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## soloabe (23 December 2010)

Not going to answer my question?


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## soloabe (23 December 2010)

Sun said:



			Sure you like to think that x is the dog draped in rossettes in your avtar a rescue then?
		
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No but he was most likely bought from a RESPONSIBLE breeder!


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## NeverSayNever (23 December 2010)

what will you do with the other pups that you dont keep?


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## Vizslak (23 December 2010)

No she was bred by and bought from a responsible breeder and is a fine example of her breed that works, shows and is a much loved pet...your point is?!


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## Sun (23 December 2010)

katielou said:



			At least tell us has your bitch had her hips, elbows and eyes scored?
		
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Sorry, I hadnt seen this post. The only test she has had so far is her eyes, although I inteted to have her checked for lpd too.


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## Sun (23 December 2010)

Vizslak said:



			No she was bred by and bought from a responsible breeder and is a fine example of her breed that works, shows and is a much loved pet...your point is?! 

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o right, so you just PRESUME the home I offer is not up the standard of the one you offer?

I have 3 dogs, I guess you have 1/2 a dozen... alll rescues? all bred by reputable breeder? why should I not have the right to own and care for the dogs I love, just because this country is full of idiots that breed Staffies with rotties then chuck them on the street when they get too aggressive.

A lurcher is a crossbred, an Jack Russell IS a crossbred, a collie has various blood in it (I had several working collies all kept till old age, I have a farm, they had jobs to do) 

The job of this bitch's offspring is to be my & my mothers companion.


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## Sun (23 December 2010)

NeverSayNever said:



			what will you do with the other pups that you dont keep?
		
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drown them obviously???  *rollseyestildizzy*


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## Sun (23 December 2010)

honeymum said:



			Totally agree with this IF you HAVE to breed from her don't use a Daxie, my little cross is part Daxie and I have spent literally hundreds of pounds on her back at the vets. The JRT part of her says run and jump and twist round in the air playing, and then her back goes and she's on painkillers and anti-inflamatories for days.
		
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yes I spoke to mum about using a Daxi  and she said the same, sorry to hear yours is so, and a good warning to folk not to consider breeding such crosses.


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## Vizslak (23 December 2010)

Sun said:



			o right, so you just PRESUME the home I offer is not up the standard of the one you offer?

I have 3 dogs, I guess you have 1/2 a dozen... alll rescues? all bred by reputable breeder? why should I not have the right to own and care for the dogs I love, just because this country is full of idiots that breed Staffies with rotties then chuck them on the street when they get too aggressive.

A lurcher is a crossbred, an Jack Russell IS a crossbred, a collie has various blood in it (I had several working collies all kept till old age, I have a farm, they had jobs to do) 

The job of this bitch's offspring is to be my & my mothers companion.
		
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Far from it, I made no comment at all on your home or your dogs or how much you care for them. 
I have four...two bred by reputable pedigree breeders, one rescue, one working bred (also responsibly)
Yes JRs are are crossbreed...I'm still not really getting your point? What will you do if the bitch has 8 pups? Keep them all?


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## NeverSayNever (23 December 2010)

Sun said:



			drown them obviously???  *rollseyestildizzy*
		
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you could have chosen to answer that properly....   do you have a list of people wanting pups who can provide a good home?


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## SusieT (23 December 2010)

Nothing... There are so many smaller dogs around and a JR cross is not highly sought after.


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## Sun (23 December 2010)

NeverSayNever said:





you could have chosen to answer that properly....   do you have a list of people wanting pups who can provide a good home?
		
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Well I could of, but this post has clearly turned into a public lynching so I dont really see the point in giving any of you sensible answers. I havent been taken seriously so I dont see why I should take you so.


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## NeverSayNever (23 December 2010)

Sun said:



			Well I could of, but this post has clearly turned into a public lynching so I dont really see the point in giving any of you sensible answers. I havent been taken seriously so I dont see why I should take you so.
		
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nice

you may or may not have noticed, but that was my first post on this thread


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## Sun (23 December 2010)

SusieT said:



			Nothing... There are so many smaller dogs around and a JR cross is not highly sought after.
		
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yes I dont what to breed her with somone too small, JRs are hugely popular where I live, especially my girls type as she is solid coloured and a very diffrent colour too. Last year I took her to Nat Champs, and I she got so much attention, people liturally giving me their numbers! even had an enquiry via my Facebook from Italy!


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## Sun (23 December 2010)

NeverSayNever said:



			nice

you may or may not have noticed, but that was my first post on this thread
		
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Yes, sorry that was not nice of me, it jsut felt you are jumping on the band wagon a little. Huge amout of emotion going on in this post, which was supposed to be random little chat about my little dog. Next thing, everyones throwing shoes at me for even thinking such a thing.


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## tweedette (23 December 2010)

A plummer terrier !! 100% if you must breed, depending on the size of your bitch, plus how many were in her litter when you got her, will depend on how many puppies you will get an average litter for a plummer is 3, but we have had up to 7.
Look on plummer terrier dot com and google plummer terriers, if you want a stud dog , but please get back to me if you decide to breed from her as there are some badly bred, but well promoted dogs out there . 

JMI, why do you want to breed when there are so many unwanted dogs out there, and yes, there may be people wnting puppies at this time but you watch them they will atke a puppy but if their circumstances change , what happens then? remember although you may sell/give the puppies to people they are your responsibility as you brought them into the world.

Gosh I sound a real miserable old sod, not meant to, just think realism before breeding anything..


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## SusieT (23 December 2010)

JRT is a small dog...so dont know why you are saying about breeding her with something too small..
I repeat..Nothing. They are ten a penny (and all dogs are 'special' in their owners eyes)


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## tweedette (23 December 2010)

..................meant to add, you lot!! for goodness sake give the girl some advice rather then a lynching, I think we have been there before  , me against the mob over some sheperds if I remember rightly, and eventually you all jumped in to help the people , dont persecute, educate!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## andraste (23 December 2010)

Sun said:



			JRs are hugely popular where I live, especially my girls type as she is solid coloured and a very diffrent colour too.
		
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Random question.  Am I right in thinking that solid coloured JRTs don't conform to the breed standard?


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## MurphysMinder (23 December 2010)

Stepping away from whether or not you should be breeding crosses, have you considered the fact that you may not get offspring with the virtues of their mum, even with pure breds.  I kept a bitch pup from my very special bitch, and whilst I love her daughter dearly, she is the complete opposite in every way from her mother.  I also have to agree with others, in an ideal world you would get just 2 pups, of the sex that you and your mum want, however sods law says you will have a huge litter, and the wrong sex.


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## Sun (23 December 2010)

Tannenbaum said:



			Random question.  Am I right in thinking that solid coloured JRTs don't conform to the breed standard?
		
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Yes you are right, she is not a SHOW dog, she is a working, short limbed terrier. All my dogs are working dogs.


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## 3DE (23 December 2010)

Sun said:



			Yes you are right, she is not a SHOW dog, she is a working, short limbed terrier. All my dogs are working dogs.
		
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If the pups are from working stock they wouldn't likely make very good companions.

Short limbed working dogs though? Normally working russels have longer legs...


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## Vizslak (23 December 2010)

There is no breed standard for JRT's.
I thought she was a lap dog? Are you now saying these are to be working bred terriers going to working homes?!


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## Sun (23 December 2010)

SusieT said:



			JRT is a small dog...so dont know why you are saying about breeding her with something too small..




			She is short limbed, but not lacking in bone or fine.
		
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## Sun (23 December 2010)

Vizslak said:



			There is no breed standard for JRT's.
I thought she was a lap dog? Are you now saying these are to be working bred terriers going to working homes?! 

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I think you should maybe go back and read my original post where I was qiute clear.


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## Vizslak (23 December 2010)

Obediently I have done...you state they are to be companions....twice, no mention of working?


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## andraste (23 December 2010)

Sun said:



			I would prefer to get more lap orientated bloodlines.
		
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Well, this is what you said...


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## Sun (23 December 2010)

tweedette said:



			A plummer terrier !! 100% if you must breed, depending on the size of your bitch, plus how many were in her litter when you got her, will depend on how many puppies you will get an average litter for a plummer is 3, but we have had up to 7.
Look on plummer terrier dot com and google plummer terriers, if you want a stud dog , but please get back to me if you decide to breed from her as there are some badly bred, but well promoted dogs out there . 

JMI, why do you want to breed when there are so many unwanted dogs out there, and yes, there may be people wnting puppies at this time but you watch them they will atke a puppy but if their circumstances change , what happens then? remember although you may sell/give the puppies to people they are your responsibility as you brought them into the world.

Gosh I sound a real miserable old sod, not meant to, just think realism before breeding anything..
		
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Wow, I have never heard of this breed, but just googled and wow they are LOVELY! 

thansk for your support, yes I know about the trials and tribulations of rehoming, not an easy task that I dont doupt for one minute, and why I wont just randomly breed... and why I started looking for advice LOL that turned out to be!


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## echodomino (23 December 2010)

As someone who is planning to breed from her JRT with a JRT - I'm afraid I agree with Cobgirlie and the others, I wouldn't be looking to cross her with anything. I don't know how to explain myself without sounding hypocritical so I'm leaving it at that.

ETA Plummer's are nice BUT are very headstrong working Terriers - I'd say more so than a JRT


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## Vizslak (23 December 2010)

FFS I give up with complete bloody morons and this flaming forum. Why ask for advice and not take it unless its the one post out of many that happens to suit you. Pointless and ridiculous.


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## tweedette (23 December 2010)

It happens , everyone who has ever bred or rather specialises in livestock knows this, whats in the parents pass to the offspring, all these things have to be taken into consideration. Still bad rearing/upbringing/training can be as much to blame as bad breeding.


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## Sun (23 December 2010)

Vizslak said:



			Obediently I have done...you state they are to be companions....twice, no mention of working?
		
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good girl.

 In my first post I stated "she was a typical Jack Russell in that she was independant", and also stated I wished to produce "a more lap orientated offspring"

where is the confusion in that?

Yes she herself is a very good example of what is essentially a Ratting Terrier. And also obedient (much like yourself) actually she hasnt moved off my lap all evening,  shelends herself well to that role also. I could easly breed her to some very good local Ratters, and produce a dynsty of repected ratters, but instead, I thought to see what other options I may have.


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## 3DE (23 December 2010)

Sun said:



			Wow, I have never heard of this breed, but just googled and wow they are LOVELY! 

thansk for your support, yes I know about the trials and tribulations of rehoming, not an easy task that I dont doupt for one minute, and why I wont just randomly breed... and why I started looking for advice LOL that turned out to be!
		
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They look lovely but they are a very difficult breed and generally only do well in working homes. I have fostered 4 and only one was successfully rehabbed and rehomed  They do not adapt well to living in a house and have a strong instinct for killing small things including cats and other small dogs 

If you want a dog for its looks I don't suggest one of these


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## Sun (23 December 2010)

Vizslak said:



			FFS I give up with complete bloody morons and this flaming forum. Why ask for advice and not take it unless its the one post out of many that happens to suit you. Pointless and ridiculous.
		
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Well I asked for advise, some of which was much appreciated as it directly was RELATIVE to my question, however the rest of it was high horse preaching.


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## Vizslak (23 December 2010)

Sun said:



			good girl.

 In my first post I stated "she was a typical Jack Russell in that she was independant", and also stated I wished to produce a more lap orientated offspring"

where is the confusion here?

Yes she herself is a very good example of what is essentially a Ratting Terrier. And also v obedient (much like yourself) and actaully hasnt moved off my lap all evening, so lends herself well to that role also. I coudl easly breed her to some very good local Ratters, and produce a dynsty of repected ratters, but instead, I thought to see what other options I may have.
		
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If you truely think that makes it clear that shes a working dog you need your head testing...lord only knows how you manage to conduct your life with such 'clear' communication.


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## Ravenwood (23 December 2010)

I am really LOL'ing here 

Just reading the title, I knew before I even opened the thread that the OP would get a lynching 

Honestly, some of you should just listen to yourselves!  

Not everyone wants to/can rescue (I can't because I work  ) and although I have no idea where the OP is from, round here JRT's are highly prized and command a lot of money for a good working strain (personally I can't stand them!!).  Years ago we used to have a "ratcatchers pack" where a whole load of people would meet (usually on a Sunday after the pub) and all the terriers would be set in a barn to catch the rats 

Some of you are so devout about only breeding like with like - yet don't you realise what a load of crap pure bred dogs there are out there?  I bet there are more rubbish pure breds than mongrels.  Just the other day we were discussing outbreeding to save a breed - and that was ok.  All pure breds nowadays originate from crossing to perfect a good dog with a purpose - why stop now?  Has evolution stopped?

There are plenty of homes out there for a  nice family dog, they don't care about its showlines or how interbred it is.

OP - has you considered a border?  Just recently a friend of mine's border got caught by a marauding JRT and they could have given away the puppies twice over - and yes they have all gone locally to good homes    which may shock some you


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## tweedette (23 December 2010)

echodomino said:



			ETA Plummer's are nice BUT are very headstrong working Terriers - I'd say more so than a JRT
		
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Unless you own one or hve trained one or several!! then you really cant comment, I have bred these for 15 yrs , and believe me I know , I also worked with Brian Plummer for 5yrs prior to his death, and bred the plummer of the year for the past 5 yrs, so I rekon as I have dogs out working, showing, as companions, in agility, obediance, house pets , living with disabled kids etc etc I have right to comment dont you?

When you can take

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuMj9Y0ypWA

this lot for a walk, all home bred and reared, then I'll let you comment until that, then its an opinion not fact. I only deal in facts!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQAd456RDWU


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## Sun (23 December 2010)

Ravenwood said:



			I am really LOL'ing here 

Just reading the title, I knew before I even opened the thread that the OP would get a lynching 

Honestly, some of you should just listen to yourselves!  

Not everyone wants to/can rescue (I can't because I work  ) and although I have no idea where the OP is from, round here JRT's are highly prized and command a lot of money for a good working strain (personally I can't stand them!!).  Years ago we used to have a "ratcatchers pack" where a whole load of people would meet (usually on a Sunday after the pub) and all the terriers would be set in a barn to catch the rats 

Some of you are so devout about only breeding like with like - yet don't you realise what a load of crap pure bred dogs there are out there?  I bet there are more rubbish pure breds than mongrels.  Just the other day we were discussing outbreeding to save a breed - and that was ok.  All pure breds nowadays originate from crossing to perfect a good dog with a purpose - why stop now?  Has evolution stopped?

There are plenty of homes out there for a  nice family dog, they don't care about its showlines or how interbred it is.

OP - has you considered a border?  Just recently a friend of mine's border got caught by a marauding JRT and they could have given away the puppies twice over - and yes they have all gone locally to good homes    which may shock some you 

Click to expand...

ah thank you.

hee hee I love Borders ) but I know they are strong charaters  the other thought I had was a Norfolk, but again I need to do some reading up to really get a good idea of the breed first.


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## Vizslak (23 December 2010)

RW I am not against breeding working dogs of any type responsibly and for a purpose...this is not what the OP was proposing, although she now seems to have changed her tune  I stud my parson out for such matings, please do not think that I am a purebreed advocate per se. Border x JRT make good working dogs (cos you are putting pure blood back into the JRT IMO but thats another discussion!)


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## WoopsiiD (23 December 2010)

Hmmm the Plummer Terrier is interesting but reading up I don't think they would make for a good combo as they appear to have been bred specifically for ratting so maybe not the best for lapdogging?


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## Sun (23 December 2010)

Vizslak said:



			If you truely think that makes it clear that shes a working dog you need your head testing...lord only knows how you manage to conduct your life with such 'clear' communication.
		
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Astute. I am just a farmer, I talk to dogs and sheep all day, I have the communication skills of those said sheep. fact.


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## Vizslak (23 December 2010)

Sun said:



			hee hee I love Borders ) but I know they are strong charaters 

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Not as strong as most jrts...borders are very loyal and very trainable.


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## tweedette (23 December 2010)

Christmas_Crackers said:



			They look lovely but they are a very difficult breed and generally only do well in working homes. I have fostered 4 and only one was successfully rehabbed and rehomed  They do not adapt well to living in a house and have a strong instinct for killing small things including cats and other small dogs 

If you want a dog for its looks I don't suggest one of these 

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Want to see pics of some plummers  in bed? kill cats lol, we have a long haired persian shes 11 now so has been in danger for all these years as I have had these dogs 15 yrs - oops , better tell posh the cat to watch out!!!! OMG- the parrots in danger too, eeks !!!

They are just what you make of them , good owners rear good dogs, just like good trainers of horses, some do , most spout. Generally its them that spout who dont do right, cos they know better, and have to spout to hide their inability, its easy to blame the third party or the horse/dog/breed whatever.


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## Sun (23 December 2010)

Vizslak said:



			RW I am not against breeding working dogs of any type responsibly and for a purpose...this is not what the OP was proposing, although she now seems to have changed her tune  I stud my parson out for such matings, please do not think that I am a purebreed advocate per se. Border x JRT make good working dogs (cos you are putting pure blood back into the JRT IMO but thats another discussion!)
		
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WTF??? YOU BREED?????? and u given ME a hard time for even chewing the cud over it! 

I only have working dogs, but even working dogs like to come in and sit on the sofa.


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## tweedette (23 December 2010)

Vizslak said:



			Not as strong as most jrts...borders are very loyal and very trainable.
		
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Many borders are too big now , a good one is superb to look at, they are very slow to mature and a bit thick, you will also add broken coat to a jrt  if she is smooth coated.


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## Ravenwood (23 December 2010)

Oh dear - I must admit, as I constantly say how much I don't like little dogs!!  I did have a Norfolk x Lakeland and I have to say she was loved and adored by everyone 

Sandy was THE best ratter in a 50 mile radius   She was very independent and would often disappear through the village to the local hunt kennels, find the biggest rat imaginable and then carry it back through the village home again - much to the shock and horror of all the grockles having their cream tea on the benches outside by the river 

Puppy on here bred from her little dog - Patterdale crosses possibly and they seem to be very popular on this forum - just another idea


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## Vizslak (23 December 2010)

Sun said:



			WTF??? YOU BREED?????? and u given ME a hard time for even chewing the cud over it! 

I only have working dogs, but even working dogs like to come in and sit on the sofa.
		
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I DO! SO you see I do have an idea of what I'm flaming on about. Yes all mine are sat on the sofa too.


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## tweedette (23 December 2010)

Ravenwood said:



			Oh dear - I must admit, as I constantly say how much I don't like little dogs!!  I did have a Norfolk x Lakeland and I have to say she was loved and adored by everyone 

Sandy was THE best ratter in a 50 mile radius   She was very independent and would often disappear through the village to the local hunt kennels, find the biggest rat imaginable and then carry it back through the village home again - much to the shock and horror of all the grockles having their cream tea on the benches outside by the river 

Puppy on here bred from her little dog - Patterdale crosses possibly and they seem to be very popular on this forum - just another idea 

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Did you know they put scottie into patterdales many moons ago?


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## echodomino (23 December 2010)

tweedette said:



			Unless you own one or hve trained one or several!! then you really cant comment, I have bred these for 15 yrs , and believe me I know , I also worked with Brian Plummer for 5yrs prior to his death, and bred the plummer of the year for the past 5 yrs, so I rekon as I have dogs out working, showing, as companions, in agility, obediance, house pets , living with disabled kids etc etc I have right to comment dont you?

When you can take

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuMj9Y0ypWA

this lot for a walk, all home bred and reared, then I'll let you comment until that, then its an opinion not fact. I only deal in facts!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQAd456RDWU

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Sorry I spoke!!!!!

I was expressing my opinion, I never said ANYTHING about fact!

I have experience with Terriers, I have JRTs, a lot of Terriers share similar traits/characteristics and the like. One of mine is 1/4 Plummer Terrier - her dad was half Plummer. 

ETA: That's one very cute puppy 



WoopsiiD said:



			Hmmm the Plummer Terrier is interesting but reading up I don't think they would make for a good combo as they appear to have been bred specifically for ratting so maybe not the best for lapdogging?
		
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That's what I meant or at least was basing my "opinion" on.


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## Vizslak (23 December 2010)

tweedette said:



			Many borders are too big now , a good one is superb to look at, they are very slow to mature and a bit thick, you will also add broken coat to a jrt  if she is smooth coated.
		
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A good working border is hard to beat IMO. And you are likely to get a cross of coats, some rough some smooth, but thats pretty likely even if you put it to another smooth jrt...Jrts have allsorts in their genetics and everyone is different, they throw some proper anomilies in their litters.


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## Sun (23 December 2010)

you know what, I just re-read my original post and it wasnt as clear as it should of been.

So, fact. Shes a cracking working short limbed JR. She thinks she is a GSD (dont they all)

I want to breed a litter of puppies for mum & me because she IS a cracking type, both rare & valued as a working dog, and also a hugely freindly loyal "pet"

I wasnt sure I wanted to breed back to JR, and I thought crossing the bitch with someting else to improve her, a slightly less dominant breed that lends well to companionship. Though the pups will spend a lot of their day outside, so not great for toy breeds, probably want to stick within the terrier gene pool


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## Sun (23 December 2010)

Vizslak said:



			I DO! SO you see I do have an idea of what I'm flaming on about. Yes all mine are sat on the sofa too.
		
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hey, i never doupted your knowledge.


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## echodomino (23 December 2010)

Vizslak said:



			A good working border is hard to beat IMO. And you are likely to get a cross of coats, some rough some smooth, but thats pretty likely even if you put it to another smooth jrt...Jrts have allsorts in their genetics and everyone is different, they throw some proper anomilies in their litters.
		
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Mouse is half smooth, she has a wire coat, put her to a wire and she had a mix. Millie is wire coated, put her to a wire and got a mix of coats there too - Mouse is wirey, Lily her sister is smooth


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## Vizslak (23 December 2010)

echodomino said:



			Mouse is half smooth, she has a wire coat, put her to a wire and she had a mix. Millie is wire coated, put her to a wire and got a mix of coats there too - Mouse is wirey, Lily her sister is smooth
		
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Point and case  

Have you considered a pure bred parson then OP?


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## Sun (23 December 2010)

echodomino said:



			Mouse is half smooth, she has a wire coat, put her to a wire and she had a mix. Millie is wire coated, put her to a wire and got a mix of coats there too - Mouse is wirey, Lily her sister is smooth
		
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my girl is smooth coated, all her siblings & mum/dad also, particualry so. Although the mother of her dad was full wire coated.


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## tweedette (23 December 2010)

Like I said 15 yrs into a dedicated serious breeding project , investigating and following lines, finding things you could never even dream about  in these dogs, mostly good, some bad - which has had to be addressed, I rekon I;m in a position to tell you negatives and positives about the breed or at least our Legion Plummers . Its all down to breeding, rearing and training - or dominos, a knock on effect.

I dont show potential owners puppies, I show them a living history of where their pup came from, as far back as I can. Its not been  for anything but a promise to a great but very strange man, a love of breeding to improve a vocation, I love my dogs and am very proud of what we have achieved .

No hard feelings, but dont knock Plummers, especially Legion ones lol  or I'll growl


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## Vizslak (23 December 2010)

Sun said:



			you know what, I just re-read my original post and it wasnt as clear as it should of been.

So, fact. Shes a cracking working short limbed JR. She thinks she is a GSD (dont they all)

I want to breed a litter of puppies for mum & me because she IS a cracking type, both rare & valued as a working dog, and also a hugely freindly loyal "pet"

I wasnt sure I wanted to breed back to JR, and I thought crossing the bitch with someting else to improve her, a slightly less dominant breed that lends well to companionship. Though the pups will spend a lot of their day outside, so not great for toy breeds, probably want to stick within the terrier gene pool 

Click to expand...

Well you know what, given your amended explanation I would recommend a Border or a Parson. 
Please ensure both parents have full relevent health checks and that you have good homes lined up for the puppies.


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## tweedette (23 December 2010)

Vizslak said:



			Have you considered a pure bred parson then OP?
		
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Good point, there are again some cracking russels and some real bad ones, especially the ones with the queen anne legs.


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## Sun (23 December 2010)

Vizslak said:



			Point and case  

Have you considered a pure bred parson then OP?
		
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Both of my mothers JRS were Parsons, and both came from a breeder (in Liverpool, I forget the name). How do Parsons cross with the short limbed JRs?


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## Sun (23 December 2010)

Parsons are also like hens teeth! dont think I have seen many around!


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## CorvusCorax (23 December 2010)

tweedette said:



			..................meant to add, you lot!! for goodness sake give the girl some advice rather then a lynching, I think we have been there before  , me against the mob over some sheperds if I remember rightly, and eventually you all jumped in to help the people , dont persecute, educate!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
		
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Er, myself and MurphysMinder offered help.
Because we love the breed. Not because of you.
Don't refer to me as being part of a 'mob'.
My advice to the German $hepherd 'breeders' was to stop breeding the way they were, and if they were to do it correctly, I would give advice on that.


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## Ravenwood (23 December 2010)

Sun said:



			I only have working dogs, but even working dogs like to come in and sit on the sofa.
		
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My dogs are working dogs too (well two of them are) but first and foremost they are family pets who love nothing more than cuddling up on the sofa with me or roasting in front of the fire - ok, not as much as going out on the shoot!  But Hey, you know what I mean


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## Vizslak (23 December 2010)

Very nicely in my experience. It puts a bit of blood and quality back in the pups.


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## Vizslak (23 December 2010)

Sun said:



			Parsons are also like hens teeth! dont think I have seen many around!
		
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Where are you based?


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## Sun (23 December 2010)

will pm u


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## WoopsiiD (23 December 2010)

My turn to jump on the defensive!! 
Our first dog was a pure bred JRT.
His mother was small, perfectly formed excellent example of her breed and wire.
His father had trophies to fill several cabinets and was highly thought of at the time (1980's) He too was small and wire.

All Bens litter mates were wire coated.

Ben......smooth as silk, big as a staffie and queen ann legged! So bowed he could play the fiddle but OMG what a dog. He was dognapped to be bred from when he young and before he was snipped and his pups were lush!!

No real point to this post-just an excuse really to remember Ben and all his faults!


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## 3DE (23 December 2010)

tweedette said:



			Want to see pics of some plummers  in bed? kill cats lol, we have a long haired persian shes 11 now so has been in danger for all these years as I have had these dogs 15 yrs - oops , better tell posh the cat to watch out!!!! OMG- the parrots in danger too, eeks !!!

They are just what you make of them , good owners rear good dogs, just like good trainers of horses, some do , most spout. Generally its them that spout who dont do right, cos they know better, and have to spout to hide their inability, its easy to blame the third party or the horse/dog/breed whatever.
		
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Agree with you - they _can_ be fine if handled correctly. Unfortunately for the average dog owner they are just too much  Bit like the way huskies are known for causing problems if in the wrong home. We've just shot 2 and one which was proabably a cross breed for killing 4 of our sheep


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## Ravenwood (23 December 2010)

Just Googled Plummer Terriers 

http://dogs.bsl-sbt.com/dogs/plummerterrier.php?s=&l=

A fantastic example of cross breeding to produce a dog to do a job   And I have no doubt that one day these will be recognised as a breed (if not already) and in years to come some of you on this forum will be advocating the breed - perhaps some of you who are now slating the OP for considering such!!


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## WoopsiiD (24 December 2010)

I googled it too and they are a fine example of 'creating' a dog to do a job....unlike that ruddy cat of mine-'created' just for the sake of it.


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## echodomino (24 December 2010)

tweedette said:



			No hard feelings, but dont knock Plummers, especially Legion ones lol  or I'll growl
		
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Course not  I didn't mean to sound like I was knocking them, especially as one of my JRTs has got Plummer in them. I merely said they were headstrong, perhaps I should have said I *think* lol, it's like I love my JRTs to bits and am trying to do what you're doing re breeding but am only on my 3rd generation but it's a generalisation that as a breed they are little buggers, like my headstrong Plummer theory but I stand corrected  and I want that puppy lol


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## joyrider (24 December 2010)

Well not really adding anything other than we have a wonderful terrier - given as a wedding present 7 years ago. Her mum was a JRT x Border Dad a Fell terrier. Looks/colour of a border, is the most obedient terrier ever including recall when chasing a rabbit thats going somewhere I don't want her to! Brilliant ratter and when working a real killing machine (eyes go green)!! However at home (lives in house as OH believes workers should still be part of family) she loves nothing more than to snuggle up close, also has never offered to snap/bite. We did have a litter of pups (4) kept one other 3 went to good homes and have to say her daughter we kept is lovely can't fault her temp, loves to cuddle up on sofa and is also a brill worker but is very different to her mum (if human would be the dizzy type)!. As we like the leggy types the dog we used was a Lakeland x Fox Terrier. Basically we have terrier mongrels and guess our 2 Bed/Whips are inc in that but love them all the same. Would just make sure apart from the obvious things that the dog has good temp and don't use anything too big on her if shes small - good luck.


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## tweedette (24 December 2010)

Christmas_Crackers said:



			Agree with you - they _can_ be fine if handled correctly. Unfortunately for the average dog owner they are just too much  Bit like the way huskies are known for causing problems if in the wrong home. We've just shot 2 and one which was proabably a cross breed for killing 4 of our sheep 

Click to expand...

The moral of the story is only let people who you feel have the ability to correctly train a puppy have one - this goes for all breeds.

I could go on and add about mastiff type dogs - which I detest , especially the strange overseas ones which tend to appear in our country - they are not to be trusted, take this example http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/12/24/article-1341322-0C92E81D000005DC-157_468x344.jpg killed a 40 yr old woman while someone stood watching on, waited for the armed police but by this time the woman was almost dead - whats wrong with kitchen utensils ? then again they could have killed the dog - I WOULD have killed the dog no matter how!! These dogs tend to attract the wrong type of owner, and are only safe until they turn, once turned there is little you can do. They - or at least some mastiff breeds were bred for a job, they are not house pets.


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## ChesnutsRoasting (24 December 2010)

Ravenwood said:



			Just Googled Plummer Terriers 

http://dogs.bsl-sbt.com/dogs/plummerterrier.php?s=&l=

A fantastic example of cross breeding to produce a dog to do a job   And I have no doubt that one day these will be recognised as a breed (if not already) and in years to come some of you on this forum will be advocating the breed - perhaps some of you who are now slating the OP for considering such!!
		
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 When Brian Plummer first 'experimented' crossing various terrier breeds with the idea of producing an decent working terrier he had disastrous results. Many were PTS due to temperament problems. He 'experimented' with lurchers to try and produce a excellent coursing dog, although there was no evidence the Plummer type could catch a ball, let alone a hare.  He also bred Collies and Cavs indiscriminately for the bucks.  I won't go into what is thought of the man by real lurcher & terrier folk, because he's dead. But suffice to say his reasons for crossbreeding  weren't in the dogs best interests.


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## Ranyhyn (24 December 2010)

Does short legged mean short legs, or short horrendously deformed useless legs?

Out of interest.


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## echodomino (24 December 2010)

Kitsmas_Pudding said:



			Does short legged mean short legs, or short horrendously deformed useless legs?

Out of interest.
		
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Yes, short legs, as in not very long not as in deformed


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## Ranyhyn (24 December 2010)

Well in that case, considering the pups all have prospective homes (as any good quality jack russell pups should find easy to secure if the bitch is of good quality) I'd go for a parsons stud.  They are longer through the leg and should add some inches.  I'd be particularly going for one with excellent conformation, not sure if QAL can jump generations though...
I personally, as the owner of what is, in my opinion a very good quality, well put together, mild mannered JRT bitch, wouldn't choose to breed at all.  I'd be telling prospective pup owners to exhaust UK rescue before looking to buy a mongrel pup.  And only then would I consider adding to the mix.


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## ChesnutsRoasting (24 December 2010)

Just got back from doing the equines & met a friend, who has just taken on a JRTxDachshund.  Dear little dog, poor conformation though.  I don't see the point tbh. I've got what I consider to be 4 decent bitches, could've bred from each and every one. Put the word out, would've sold, no probs. But for what purpose?  Terrier types are ten a penny and are languishing in kennels up and down the country, along with thousands of other crossbreeds.


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## tweedette (24 December 2010)

Bloomin Christmas Again said:



			When Brian Plummer first 'experimented' crossing various terrier breeds with the idea of producing an decent working terrier he had disastrous results. Many were PTS due to temperament problems. He 'experimented' with lurchers to try and produce a excellent coursing dog, although there was no evidence the Plummer type could catch a ball, let alone a hare.  He also bred Collies and Cavs indiscriminately for the bucks.  I won't go into what is thought of the man by real lurcher & terrier folk, because he's dead. But suffice to say his reasons for crossbreeding  weren't in the dogs best interests.
		
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ahem!! I have been breeding these dogs for 15 yrs, 10 without Brian , history is history, I can state from FACT, EXPERIENCE and SUCESS , NOW!! 
We also had plummer bred lurchers, they could catch up to 80 rabbits on an evening , over 300 in 3 days - fed the wildcats all winter , those and a few geese , want the pictures? or is proof and fact only something else to nit pick about, failures? like I said domino effect.

I see Brians wife still churns out second rate commercial dogs  , that aint my problem and neither is she ,neither was anything brian did or said, but I had the utmost respect for the man and his knowledge even though most times he couldnt put it into practice - I can and do!! the results speak for themselves.

do you speak from experience? or backdoor tittle tattle?


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## bex1984 (24 December 2010)

I have a 10 month old JRT x Border Terrier (Mum was JRTx border, Dad pure JRT) - we didn't go looking for a cross, or a pure breed, we went looking for a dog bred as a pet, for temperament, that had had the 'right' early life for us (Stan had been part of a pack of dogs, lived with kids, cats, cows, horses etc...all by 12 weeks old...and it has, IMO, had a lasting positie effect on him). He is a fab doglet, adored by everyone who meets him, so so friendly, house trained in days, obedient, great fun, and loves snuggling on the sofa 
I really couldn't give a flying fudge if he were pure bred something or cross bred something, it's all about temperament for me, and he was bred for that. I know numpties who own pure bred dogs, and numpties who own cross breeds. I know of a pure bred bitch, VERY expensive, with behavioural problems, but hey, she's a pure bred and the pups will be worth £1500 each so the chances are she'll be bred from...


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## ChesnutsRoasting (24 December 2010)

tweedette said:



			ahem!! I have been breeding these dogs for 15 yrs, 10 without Brian , history is history, I can state from FACT, EXPERIENCE and SUCESS , NOW!! 
We also had plummer bred lurchers, they could catch up to 80 rabbits on an evening , over 300 in 3 days - fed the wildcats all winter , those and a few geese , want the pictures? or is proof and fact only something else to nit pick about, failures? like I said domino effect.

I see Brians wife still churns out second rate commercial dogs  , that aint my problem and neither is she ,neither was anything brian did or said, but I had the utmost respect for the man and his knowledge even though most times he couldnt put it into practice - I can and do!! the results speak for themselves.

do you speak from experience? or backdoor tittle tattle?
		
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Well you've said it yourself, he could talk the talk. The dogs you breed could be the best thing since sliced bread, for all I know or care. A decent terrier man couldn't care less if his dog was bred from Plummer lines or by Jesus Christ himself as long as it can do the job.


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## CAYLA (25 December 2010)

Bloomin Christmas Again said:



			Well you've said it yourself, he could talk the talk. The dogs you breed could be the best thing since sliced bread, for all I know or care. A decent terrier man couldn't care less if his dog was bred from Plummer lines or by Jesus Christ himself as long as it can do the job.
		
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Lol Im loving the above reply

Soz, im sitting on me own at work, just to add I know 2 people with plumber terriers (sp) and they are a night mare, the most unruly dogs I have ever had the dis-pleasure of meeting and highly irritating, one was is an aggresive little sod, and tried to take on anything and everything, even though trained and socialised very young, it just seems hyper as hell even with tuns of exercise and makes the most high pitched screaming noises when t wants to get at something, it learn it's one and only lesson when it attempted to hang of my akita (luckily I had fed her)

Sorry other than that I know very little about them, I can see u are passionate about your breed Tweedette.

I would like to add, I never get this u cannot get a j.r.t/samll dog in rescue, we have 3, just rehomed 1, and as for lap dogs we have in the last 2 weeks rehomed
a 14 month westi male
10 month shih tzu female
16 month cairn terrier female
2 year old j.r.t as above male (we also have his rough coated brother)
2 border terrier puppies (14 weeks) 1 male 1 female

We are also home checking for a 12 month poodle

I wont even mention the breeding enough been said


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## EAST KENT (25 December 2010)

Phew! Staying behind the sofa myself!


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## CAYLA (25 December 2010)

EAST KENT said:



			Phew! Staying behind the sofa myself!

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*points to EK* there she is


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## GinnieRedwings (26 December 2010)

I've got to say, I accidentally stumbled on this post, read through most of it and am still hyperventilating at the amount of aggression... 

I know and understand that some of you are involved, day in, day out, in trying to rehome and provide a decent quality of life to dogs that a lot of idiots out there took on when they were cute puppies, then didn't want any more... BUT it doesn't mean that a rescue dog is the right choice for everyone, every time, and I can't understand why everyone needs to be so judgemental?

What is the difference between breeding purebred say... Vizlas  - to sell, to people you don't know, who may or may not be suitable owners... or breeding a one-off litter of crossbreed mutts from your beloved bitch and keeping a couple and selling the rest to people that to the best of your judgement are going to love and cherish the pups to the end of their life? 
Why is one responsible breeding and the other not?

I have only owned 4 dogs in my adult life. Number 1, 2 & 3 were rescued. 

Number 1 (GreyhoundxGSD female, Very Beloved Lucy Lurcher) was incontinent from being "nicked" when being spayed at 6 months old by the rescue centre - for 12 years I had to change her bed several times a day and my house, well, stank! & of course, I couldn't go to anyone else's house...

Number 2 (RottiexLab male, Gorgeous Mad Max) was extremely dog aggressive. I got him at 18 months old - nothing I could do about his early socialisation then!!! and no amount of training - lots of different behaviourists/techniques, etc... made the blindest bit of difference. For 12 years, when instead of relaxing and enjoying my long walks in the woods/country twice a day, I was on edge, on the outlook for any other dog walkers so that I could swiftly put Max back on the lead...

Number 3 (Short-legged, wire-haired JRT, So Sweet Pixie), 3 years old when I rescued her, simply had no recall at all outside the house - despite a lot of time and effort invested in training. One day, she slipped her collar and collided with a car whilst following her nose in a straight line.... Car won 

Number 4, it was decided, would be a small (portable) dog, but tough enough to be happy spending hours outside with me down the yard with the horses in all weather and keep the rats/rabbits in check. A little JRT or JRTx. And more than anything... a PUPPY!!! who could be socialised and trained from day dot with other dogs, children, horses, cats etc...

You wouldn't believe how hard it was to find a little cross breed mutt that fitted the bill... going like hot cakes, it appears.

Skye (JRT x Yorkie) is much loved and has a home for life. She's 6 months old now and everyone is smitten with her, and should I chose to breed her to my friend's little Norfolk Terrier, Rocky, I have at least 8 takers!!!


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## 3DE (26 December 2010)

GinnieRedwings said:



			What is the difference between breeding purebred say... Vizlas  - to sell, to people you don't know, who may or may not be suitable owners... or breeding a one-off litter of crossbreed mutts from your beloved bitch and keeping a couple and selling the rest to people that to the best of your judgement are going to love and cherish the pups to the end of their life? 
Why is one responsible breeding and the other not?
		
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Because it is had enough to rehome a pure bred dog, never mind a crossbreed. Yes they are much loved by the bitches owners but if the dog does end up in a shelter (as so many do) then they have a much harder time being rehomed. 

Why purposely breed a crossbreed when there are already so many of them needing homes in kennels?


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## Vizslak (26 December 2010)

haha I missed this

*What is the difference between breeding purebred say... Vizlas - to sell, to people you don't know, who may or may not be suitable owners... or breeding a one-off litter of crossbreed mutts from your beloved bitch and keeping a couple and selling the rest to people that to the best of your judgement are going to love and cherish the pups to the end of their life?
Why is one responsible breeding and the other not?*

very cleverly worded. I'm not breeding vizslas to indiscriminatly sell to people I dont know and may or may not be suitable owners though.


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## CAYLA (26 December 2010)

Christmas_Crackers said:



			Because it is had enough to rehome a pure bred dog, never mind a crossbreed. Yes they are much loved by the bitches owners but if the dog does end up in a shelter (as so many do) then they have a much harder time being rehomed. 

Why purposely breed a crossbreed when there are already so many of them needing homes in kennels?
		
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Yeah what inky said^^^ and

My maine gripe with X breeding is the lack of health tests/compatible health tests and the fact that in most cases no frigger knows what the hell they will look like and have no clear guidline as to what is expected of the outcome, in regards to character/traits e,t,c, so they end up dump-a-roonied
and the toal crap about how much healthier they are yeah right!!


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## 3DE (26 December 2010)

CAYLA said:



			Yeah what inky said^^^ and
		
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And there was me thinking I was incognito for Christmas  You got me!


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## CAYLA (26 December 2010)

Vizslak said:



			haha I missed this

*What is the difference between breeding purebred say... Vizlas - to sell, to people you don't know, who may or may not be suitable owners... or breeding a one-off litter of crossbreed mutts from your beloved bitch and keeping a couple and selling the rest to people that to the best of your judgement are going to love and cherish the pups to the end of their life?
Why is one responsible breeding and the other not?*

very cleverly worded. I'm not breeding vizslas to indiscriminatly sell to people I dont know and may or may not be suitable owners though.
		
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Well..........Im not into breeding (I run a puppy farm really) but bye the bye, im assuming u are going to health test the bitch and the dog, have a clear mind on the type of home u need and beable to give the exact traits, characteristics and needs of the breed, the X bred litter will not, cos they dont have a clue, except to say......well my bitch is fine, I can tell u that much, she love a tummy tickle, is fully pish pot trained and loves me dearly... so her pups will do the same, the father, I know nowt about, but he looked ok sorry im rambling here but soooooooooo what


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## CAYLA (26 December 2010)

Christmas_Crackers said:



			And there was me thinking I was incognito for Christmas  You got me!
		
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Lol, I know that avatar, actually this is good for me considering how ***** and forgetful I am and now half pished


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## Vizslak (26 December 2010)

Yes pretty much and a bit more!


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## 3DE (26 December 2010)

CAYLA said:



			Lol, I know that avatar, actually this is good for me considering how ***** and forgetful I am and now half pished

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I must be stramashed too - completely forgot that I'd put it in my siggy


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## CAYLA (26 December 2010)

Christmas_Crackers said:



			I must be stramashed too - completely forgot that I'd put it in my siggy 

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LMfatFAO, Im not bright enough to look to ya siggi


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## GinnieRedwings (27 December 2010)

Clearly, those who responded to my comment about responsible breeding did not read the rest of my post - shame...

I can see how those of you involved in rescue can feel like the majority of crossbreed mutts end up in kennels... instead of much loved pets to the end of their days - which most of them do, I believe, and if I am wrong, please show me actual figures from a properly researched study.

For those people actively breeding & standing dogs at stud (one Parson dog was offered to the OP pretty much immediately after telling them they were irresponsible for even thinking about breeding from their bitch??? WTF???), well I am still reeling from the hypocrisy.

What makes some people somehow better than others at judging whether people may or may not divorce in 5 years' time and move to a small flat, or may have to emigrate to Australia and not be able to take the dog with them???


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## PerdixPerdix (27 December 2010)

GinnieRedwings said:



			Clearly, those who responded to my comment about responsible breeding did not read the rest of my post - shame...

I can see how those of you involved in rescue can feel like the majority of crossbreed mutts end up in kennels... instead of much loved pets to the end of their days - which most of them do, I believe, and if I am wrong, please show me actual figures from a properly researched study.

For those people actively breeding & standing dogs at stud (one Parson dog was offered to the OP pretty much immediately after telling them they were irresponsible for even thinking about breeding from their bitch??? WTF???), well I am still reeling from the hypocrisy.

What makes some people somehow better than others at judging whether people may or may not divorce in 5 years' time and move to a small flat, or may have to emigrate to Australia and not be able to take the dog with them???
		
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completely agree with this. i cant really beleive just how many generalisations and assumptions are being made by otherwise level headed and knowledgeble members! as for the crazy 'working terriers dont make lapdogs' comments... um 90 percent of lapdogs that i know of, including my own 4, are of the working terrier persuasion, am completely baffled why anyone who has come into any sort of contact with terriers working or not at any time in their life would make such a daft generalisation. 

to OP, i dont know whether you have ever bred you dogs before, but its not as easy as just popping out some pups and picking the best, they need care and attention for the first 8-10 weeks of their life and rehomeing can be difficult. its expensive and you would probably be better off just adopting a reome dog. plus terrier puppies are little feckers!!! i do understand about you wanting to carry on 'the line' as well though. probably not best to cross with dacshund either.


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## 3DE (27 December 2010)

GinnieRedwings said:



			What makes some people somehow better than others at judging whether people may or may not divorce in 5 years' time and move to a small flat, or may have to emigrate to Australia and not be able to take the dog with them???
		
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The reason being that if someone has paid £600-£700 or even over £1000 they are much more likely to sell the dog on and ensure it has a good home - hitting someone in the pocket makes someone more responsible. A 'free' dog that cost nothing is much more likely to be dumped at the pound.

It's not nice but that is how some people are - they value things more if they have paid a lot of money for them...


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## PerdixPerdix (27 December 2010)

Christmas_Crackers said:



			The reason being that if someone has paid £600-£700 or even over £1000 they are much more likely to sell the dog on and ensure it has a good home - hitting someone in the pocket makes someone more responsible. A 'free' dog that cost nothing is much more likely to be dumped at the pound.

It's not nice but that is how some people are - they value things more if they have paid a lot of money for them...
		
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another generalisation that i dont think is entirely true. i would be wary of anyone buying a puppy that is madly overpriced as it would be a dead giveaway that they werent too clued up.

a lady called about our terriers last week and mentioned she had seen patterdaleX's for £300 and what was wrong with mine as the price was so low £150...?? i had to laugh and suggest she didnt part with any cash until she had done some research. 

if anything i think its the breed that defines rehoming, as people take on a puppy and arent prepared for its size/enthusiasm. friends of ours recently paid out over a grand for...i cant remember..huge fluffy thing, and did all the reasearch they could on it, but if they hadnt can you imagine? 

my main gripe is the amount of working dogs who are bought because their parents won feild trials and whatever and then end up with a psychotic head case that needed serious time and stimulation invested into it.


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## Sun (27 December 2010)

I have pretty much given up on this post or getting any form of helpful advice. However I would like to thank those who HAVE offered advice, and to those who also spotted the ridiculous hypocrisy.

To those who offered me advice on the costs etc, I can assure you we are very comfortable and in fact we live on a farm, again I didnt coem here asking stupid questions like "how much does it cost... ect"

Experience wise, I worked for a well known kennels some time ago, they where hugely repected in the dog world and also well known and repected judge. They bred huge qauntities of puppies of many diffrent breeds.  On the basis of this I do not for one minute assume "Respected Pedigree Breeders" are infact breeding for the exact purpose of putting puppies on the ground for their own use. In contrast many farmers are breeding up and down the country from a favorite bitch to provide the farm with the required workhands & to continue the blood of a good bitch. Yes extra pups are sold on but often within the community itself. I consider this a far more ethical breeding practice than many pedigree show dog breeders.

Yes, having now looked into the Daxi x TR, that is not a good match, and actually having thought of it a great deal over the last few days I have decided I am going to outcross her with the same type JR but from a different area as most JRs in this area are related. Because in reality she is perfect.

Basically, what I got from this post was that this dog section of the forum is full of hypocritical judgmental people. So thank you, but goodbye.


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## JanetGeorge (27 December 2010)

SusieT said:



			Nothing... There are so many smaller dogs around and a JR cross is not highly sought after.
		
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Actually, the right sort of JRT x IS highly sought after!!

This is my JRT x - he WAS a private rescue from an unsuitable home.







He is THE most fabulous little dog - and I've had people begging me to know where they can find one like him.  He has sired two litters - out of two different JRT bitches (yeah - call me irresponsible but I knew the owners of the bitches well and they WANTED to breed a litter - and were responsible owners.)

The pups from both litters were fabulous - a real variety of colours - and all were sold to friends/relatives of the bitches' owners - I regularly get updates on them.  And both bitches' owners have a list of people wanting a pup from a future litter!

The FACT is that not every responsible owner wants a rescue.  I have 3 - and all arrived with 'issues' - Benny's being the least of the problems (he was 6 months when I got him.)  The other two - a Springer, with severe separation anxiety and nervous aggression, and a Foxhound x Lab - who had been rehomed 4 times before I got her - her longest stay in a new home was a week - would NOT be suitable for many perfectly responsible dog owners!

It seems some people here would say that anyone who wants a puppy that HASN'T been screwed up by idiots is not fit to own a dog!!  That's as stupid as suggesting that no-one should - God forbid - buy a nice youngster, properly started, and with no issues.  They should instead go onto Project Horses and buy a horse that has soundness and behavioural issues!

It is NOT the individual, responsible owner who breeds a litter - having thought through all the potential problems- that IS the problem!  It's the Puppy Farms, churning out badly reared litters - and irresponsible owners who buy a puppy with no thought for what it will grow into!


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## Vizslak (27 December 2010)

GinnieRedwings said:



			Clearly, those who responded to my comment about responsible breeding did not read the rest of my post - shame...

I can see how those of you involved in rescue can feel like the majority of crossbreed mutts end up in kennels... instead of much loved pets to the end of their days - which most of them do, I believe, and if I am wrong, please show me actual figures from a properly researched study.

For those people actively breeding & standing dogs at stud (one Parson dog was offered to the OP pretty much immediately after telling them they were irresponsible for even thinking about breeding from their bitch??? WTF???), well I am still reeling from the hypocrisy.

What makes some people somehow better than others at judging whether people may or may not divorce in 5 years' time and move to a small flat, or may have to emigrate to Australia and not be able to take the dog with them???
		
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Er get your facts right I DID NOT offer the OP my dog at stud!


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## GinnieRedwings (27 December 2010)

Vizslak said:



			I stud my parson out for such matings.
		
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Vizslak said:



			Have you considered a pure bred parson then OP?
		
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Sun said:



			How do Parsons cross with the short limbed JRs?
		
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Vizslak said:



			Very nicely in my experience. It puts a bit of blood and quality back in the pups.
		
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Sun said:



			Parsons are also like hens teeth! dont think I have seen many around!
		
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Vizslak said:



			Where are you based?
		
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Sun said:



			will pm u
		
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## Vizslak (27 December 2010)

Yes and if you put those comments back in the context they are written they make perfect sense and NOWHERE do I offer my dog for stud. My dog sires about 4 litters a year, to carefully selected bitches. I turn down about 20 requests for matings per year. Believe me I am not about to stud him out over a forum to someone I dont know and I am disgusted at being accused to contrary


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## CorvusCorax (27 December 2010)

Ginnie, if you knew what Vizslak has been through this year, she could have pimped out three of her dogs several times over with no afterthought at all, and made a tidy amount of cash for herself, but she didn't, because she isn't that sort of person.


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## CAYLA (27 December 2010)

CaveCanem said:



			Ginnie, if you knew what Vizslak has been through this year, she could have pimped out three of her dogs several times over with no afterthought at all, and made a tidy amount of cash for herself, but she didn't, because she isn't that sort of person.
		
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Ditto this, and yes if u string such quotes together u are bound to come up with your own quote 
You could probably string a few of mine together and decifer im a puppy farm also

She could have made a small fortune from her own litter of parsons, but chose to be responsible and not risk the dogs welfare because of her own circumstance.

The quote game looks cool however, I might go make my own up


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## Vizslak (27 December 2010)

and I had an accidental mating just after M left that I could have made tidy money out of...I took the bitch for a termination


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## MurphysMinder (27 December 2010)

Ditto CC and Cayla, you really have got the wrong end of the stick re Vizslak  Ginnie.


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## GinnieRedwings (27 December 2010)

Look, TBH, I normally have no interest or inclination in vilifying anyone, especially people I don't know.

BUT, I was hugely shocked and upset at the patronising, rude and frankly unacceptable tone of some of the comments made on this thread, so decided to join in with equal gusto... for my sins - I now feel dirty to have come down to the level of insult, snobbery and hypocrisy of some of the other posters, including Vizslak. 

Re-read this thread and tell me everything said here fits within the frame of a polite exchange of views?! I expect that from the teenagers on NL, but surely, none of us are PMT'd teenagers???

Shame, I have just acquired a little cross breed terrier puppy & was hoping to pick up some helpful training tips from you knowledgeable dog people - not sure I want to be part of this though...


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## Vizslak (27 December 2010)

To be fair you are correct...the OP's tone dictated the tone of some replys though, however I think if you read the entire thread properly its clear there were some misunderstandings from the original post and actually a reasonable discussion was reached in the end.


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## CorvusCorax (27 December 2010)

GW, hang around, you'll find some very strong, but often divergent views, it would be a very boring world if we all agreed with one another.

I still find this place a lot more cordial than other parts of the forum, in terms of having a discussion, it getting a bit heated, then settling down again - some of the people in AAD, I totally agree with on one thread, but totally oppose that view on another, does it mean either of us are wrong?

At the end of the day, it gets heated because we all love dogs, our own, a breed, all dogs, and I do not think there is anything wrong with that.

You can also see how easy wires get crossed and the written word can be misinterpreted.


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## GinnieRedwings (27 December 2010)

I'm all for open discussion and do not wish to be in agreement with all people at all times - but there are ways to argue your corner without making other people feel inadequate for having their own viewpoint. It is even more important when you are part of a community of like minded people who you know will intervene to back you up... i.e. All breeding of cross-bred dogs is inherently wrong and can only equal irresponsible breeding... what ends up happening is a clique of people bullying the one discenting voice - who as it happens is NOT WRONG in thinking that she CAN breed a little of JRT x AND find good forever (as much as anyone can EVER be certain of that!!!) homes for them all & does not deserve to be called a moron (I quote) or irresponsible or anything else for that matter.

You are right, the written word can be misinterpreted - but in many respects, it gives you the time and the distance that the spoken word doesn't, so by reading carefully others' comments and re-reading your own equally carefully can you be involved in an intelligent and positive debate rather than a fishwives' squabble.


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## Vizslak (27 December 2010)

Agreed and I have just explained to MM and CC why exactly my posting style on this thread was not my usual...I do not post in this mannar normally and I think you would be hard pushed to find any posts where I have flown off the handle like this previously. And I didnt call the OP a moron...I said I was fed up with morons on this forum...which summed up the way I was feeling. However that wasnt the OP's fault and I apologise to her for being rather rude. 
I still dont agree with your viewpoint I'm afraid though, people should not be breeding random crossbreed litters for the hell of it (or buying the pups from such matings). IF the OP carries out relevant health checks and is breeding a litter of working terriers and has good homes lined up and is prepared to offer lifetime back up however, my viewpoint adjusts slightly.


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## CorvusCorax (27 December 2010)

I don't agree with breeding anything, crossbred or not, without both parents having been proven via work or lightly shown, if not titled, to make sure they are good examples of their breed, and have all their current health tests with good results. Before anyone mentions character and temper, these should not be mutually exclusive to a dog who can work, show or both. Or without homes already being lined up, and of course, to breed one for myself, or else what is the point, apart from making money.

This is borne from the love of a breed that has been badly affected by generations of people breeding a 'nice' dog to a 'nice' bitch without knowing what was lurking in the lines. I have two 'lovely' dogs, but neither of them will be procreating because I know they're not good enough.
Even if they were considered good breeding stock, I doubt in all conscience I could let one single solitary puppy go in this current climate, without agonising about it. 

That's just me though.


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## 3DE (27 December 2010)

CaveCanem said:



			I don't agree with breeding anything, crossbred or not, without both parents having been proven via work or lightly shown, if not titled, to make sure they are good examples of their breed, and have all their current health tests with good results. Before anyone mentions character and temper, these should not be mutually exclusive to a dog who can work, show or both. Or without homes already being lined up, and of course, to breed one for myself, or else what is the point, apart from making money.

This is borne from the love of a breed that has been badly affected by generations of people breeding a 'nice' dog to a 'nice' bitch without knowing what was lurking in the lines. I have two 'lovely' dogs, but neither of them will be procreating because I know they're not good enough.
Even if they were considered good breeding stock, I doubt in all conscience I could let one single solitary puppy go in this current climate, without agonising about it. 

That's just me though.
		
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My sentiments put far more eloquently  People condemn people for breeding from a mare with unknown breeding - how is a dog any different?


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## competitiondiva (27 December 2010)

OK I'll admit that I haven't read all what 12 pages of replies here!!! But as someone who works alot with rescues I would ask for you to seriously think about this, yes you are probably a very responsible owner and have the best interests of your dog etc in mind but please consider:
a) if something happened to your bitch whilst giving birth and god forbid died.... would you forgive yourself.
b) can you guarantee a good, home checked home for every pup that you do rehome, and that they will be neutered and not have money made out of them through breeding?
c) can you offer to take back any of the pups that end up needing to be rehomed if the new owner cannot cope etc?
d) the owners you do seek, are probably only going to be the best, but don't the rescues in centres already who didn't ask to be born deserve to land in the laps of these people you seek?

Rescue centres as you are aware are heaving, added to that the normal, post christmas throw away.... homes need to be found for the dogs we in the uk already have.  Now if you had homes lined up already for all the possible pups then it may be a different matter, but if you are needing to advertise then I would ask against doing it.

My friend had a litter out of her JR, none of the pups have the same temperament as the mum, there is no guarantee of this happening, so doing it just to try to get another like your beloved bitch isn't a guarantee.  Dogs should be with us for life, they give us everything, but at the end of the day they cannot last forever and cannot be duplicated.  I have a lab x, she is the BEST dog ever, but if think if I ever had another lab, I'd be constantly comparing it to her, which wouldn't be fair,  I would probably be looking to get in the future something that looked nothing like her instead!!!

But if after all that you still want to go ahead then I would say to go for another JR or parsons JR or possibly a plummer terrier. Of course these are not lap dogs, but neither is your JR, as a breed they love and need to be on the go and getting into trouble,  in the years I've worked with dogs, the only breed I think I could ever call a 'lap' dog (as in loves to be curled up, not needing much exercise) is a greyhound!!!!!  All speed, no stamina!!!  Every other dog including pomerainians (sp?!) were active, athletic little things.

Good luck whatever you choose.


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## echodomino (27 December 2010)

CaveCanem said:



			and of course, to breed one for myself,
		
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I said that in one of my posts, as I agree totally with you, and I got called selfish!!  I give up lol


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## 3DE (27 December 2010)

competitiondiva said:



			The only breed I think I could ever call a 'lap' dog (as in loves to be curled up, not needing much exercise) is a greyhound!!!!!  All speed, no stamina!!!
		
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Lurchers can be included in that group too


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## competitiondiva (27 December 2010)

Christmas_Crackers said:



			Lurchers can be included in that group too 












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oh of course CC, lurchers definately in that group!


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## Pix (27 December 2010)

This whole thread has given me a headache! From what I read the OP has a nice stamp of JRT which she wants to breed in order to a) continue the line and b) create something more lap-dog orientated that the bitch herself. Maybe I have read the responses differently to others but the general feeling I get is don't do it simply because the two separate reasons do not gel together so well. If you have a good JRT and want to continue that line, then breed her to another good JRT that will get the results you want. If you want a lap dog then look towards breeders or rescues that will supply you with one. If you hope to outcross in order to get what you want, then the chances are slim on a first generation mating. You just can't tell what you will get from a first gen cross, it will be such a mixed bag. It will be quite the gamble and that's without finding homes for the rest of the litter. 

I don't see how the above can be found offensive, or patronising etc. It's just common sense. There exists no magical puppy fairy that will ensure your pups will have the exact mix of genes and hereditary traits that you desire  I've no doubt at all the OP is quite capable of breeding and finding homes for her pups, just that the reason for breeding in this case might be a little blinded by love of the bitch in question.

I'd also agree with the overall message in CC's last post. My GSD has had his nuts whipped off recently. He's not breeding material, no matter how much I would love another close coated, big eared, dark masked, over sized donkey just like him (fits my personal taste, I shall no doubt be whipped by the GSD mafia ). His collection of faults makes him unsuitable for breeding in my eyes, no matter how great any advice in the matter I might receive.

Just my 2p!


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## ozpoz (28 December 2010)

I'm bewildered by some of this - especially because i spent 5 months last year looking for a little terrier type of dog to replace the gap left by my 17 year old lhasa ( who was an out an out ratter/rabbiter, lorry dog,therapy dog, and lap dog).
 Local rescues only had staffie crosses. I love staffies,had one many years 
ago, but I won't have one now. I tried little dog rescue and others, filled out forms and no one ever got back to me!! even although I could supply vet refs etc.
 I offered to rehome a old lhasa and was told over the phone that my country home would not be his sort of thing( A dog is happier in a city???) 
I wasn't bothered what the dog looked like, I just wanted a little dog and was confident I could offer a super home.
So, my experience has been that rescuing a small dog is far from easy.
And had I seen this thread some months ago I would be offering a home to one of Sun's future pups!
There is a lovely whippet by my side as I write this....


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## miniwhisper (28 December 2010)

I am bewildered by this thread! I think that when someone asks a question like this, they are being responsible to look for advice before going ahead. The most positive reply was the advice about not using a daxie because of the back problems. The OP obviously took this on board so is now less likely to make this mistake
As we all know, rescue centres are all full to the brim with Staffie types. Friends of mine have tried and failed to find smaller dogs at rescues.
The OP obviusly has the time, space and experience to breed a litter of pups and if she is careful to make sure that they are healthy (bitch tested for whatever is appropriate to the breed) I think it is up to her regardless of whether I or anyone else thinks it is a good idea. She is not breaking any laws. Some people may disagree with what she is proposing but personally I think that our collective anger should be directed towards those who are breeding aggressive type dogs in unsuitable environments rather than against someone who loves her dog and is hoping to produce pups suitable as companions. I doubt that any of the OPs puppies wont be found good homes and are extremely unlikely to be a damger to anyone.


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## CAYLA (28 December 2010)

Ok, I never commented on the "should u breed or not part" as they was already enough said, but I have to say as a rescue we are always rehoming small dogs, today im rehming a 12 month old toy poodle, last week a cairn terrier, shih-tzu, and a j.r.t the week before a westi, the weeks before that 2 border terrier puppies, we have 4 J.r.t's in (those rare things no one seems to see) we have homed about 20 cavaliers this year, maybe we are the only rescue in the world to be inundated with small dogs.  I would belive this if the rescue sites I frequent did not have little dogs on their boards all the time, and their is currently a 9 month old patterdale male on one of them.
We also have a little yorki x terrier type in (12 months old)


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