# One of only 30 in the world



## Rollin (25 June 2014)

This is the photo Horse and Hound put on their Facebook page last year.  Only the second pure bred Cleveland Bay filly to be born in France and one of fewer than 30 born world wide last year.







And another at 3 weeks of age







Here is a photo of Duchess taken this morning.  She is 15 months old and should make 17hh.  Straight limbed, lovely action, great feet and a sweet temperament.

So why is the Cleveland Bay on the RBST critical list?







Her full sister, the first pure bred filly born in France.


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## nikicb (25 June 2014)

Beautiful horses, thank you for sharing.  So sad there are so few.  x


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## LittleBlackMule (25 June 2014)

What a stunner. To me, that out classes any warmblood, any day.


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## Moomin1 (25 June 2014)

Absolutely stunning.  I am a massive fan of CB's.


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## Kat (25 June 2014)

So beautiful!  

Just the sort of horse that should be in demand for leisure and lower level competition riders too (and I mean that in a positive way).


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## Toraylac (26 June 2014)

I am convinced! I have warmbloods but have decided that I will breed no more and will seriously look in to acquiring a nice mare for me. Who has these horses in UK?


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## webble (26 June 2014)

Is there really that few? I used to part loan two, both owned by the same person! They were gorgeous horses but very stubborn when they wanted to be


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## Apercrumbie (26 June 2014)

What a beautiful yearling.  I wish there were more CBs around, unfortunately as the numbers have got so low they just aren't available for the market they would be perfect for.  

Out of interest, I know that there is a small but dedicated breeding programme for CBs, are they using any other breeds to help boost numbers?  I know that obviously purity is desirable but is there a willingness to use certain other very similar horses?


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## Rollin (26 June 2014)

Kat said:



			So beautiful!  

Just the sort of horse that should be in demand for leisure and lower level competition riders too (and I mean that in a positive way).
		
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Thank you.  I accept your post is positive - I agree.  This is a great horse for riding club activities and leisure.  Since moving to France we have become very interested in endurance, two pure bred mares in the UK have competed at 80 miles and a part-bred completed the Golden Horsehoe.

Last year the top East Coast Trail Horse in USA was a CBxTB.

And of course HM keeps them as carriage horses in the Royal Mews.


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## Rollin (26 June 2014)

Toraylac said:



			I am convinced! I have warmbloods but have decided that I will breed no more and will seriously look in to acquiring a nice mare for me. Who has these horses in UK?
		
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Great Britain has had a wamblood for years, Harvey Smith took one the Olympic Games in Mexico and another won Burleigh - it was called a CBxTB!!!

There is a breeders list on the website of the Cleveland Bay Horse Society.  Are you in search of a youngster or a ready backed horse.  If you are happy to start with an unbacked horse please pm me and I will put you in contact with someone not far from you.


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## PorkChop (26 June 2014)

Out of interest, why do you think that their numbers have declined so much?  Surely the demand isn't there for a reason.

Or is it because they have been used for crossing with TB's mainly?


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## Rollin (26 June 2014)

webble said:



			Is there really that few? I used to part loan two, both owned by the same person! They were gorgeous horses but very stubborn when they wanted to be
		
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I think the perception that they are ALL stubborn has done the breed a great diservice.  The first two we purchased were NEVER stubborn both great riding horses.  Currently of my two five year olds one is much more confident than the other and hacks out alone every morning.  The more nervous of the two might be thought 'stubborn' but we know she just needs to be brought on gently.

I have just done a count for 2013 and actually there were 23 pure breds born in the UK and 9 overseas which includes our own.


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## Rollin (26 June 2014)

Apercrumbie said:



			What a beautiful yearling.  I wish there were more CBs around, unfortunately as the numbers have got so low they just aren't available for the market they would be perfect for.  

Out of interest, I know that there is a small but dedicated breeding programme for CBs, are they using any other breeds to help boost numbers?  I know that obviously purity is desirable but is there a willingness to use certain other very similar horses?
		
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Dr. Andy Dell conducted a large DNA study of the Cleveland Bay a few years ago and was given an award by the RBST, presented by HRH the Price of Wales.  He developed a computer programme of selective mating, which is available to all breeders.  We aim to mate mares and stallions to reduce in-breeding or some of us do.

I have three mares who are good mates for my stallion and frozen semen stored at West Kington suitable for my stallion's daughter.

CBHS receives grant money from the Horse Betting Levy Board to encourage pure bred breeding, for example if my filly had been born in the UK I would have received £500.  Overseas breeders receive no grant, which shows that there are breeders who will breed 'pure' for the love of the breed.

There has been much debate about introducing non-CB blood into the stud book, but the RBST have pointed out, there can be no going back once you change the stud book.  We do have a grading register in which small amounts of non CB blood can be introduced over several generations but this takes years.

Many of our pure bred breeders also breed part breds, including myself.

There is a great temptation to use CB mares to produce sport horses from hot blooded horses or warmbloods.  Somebody needs to breed pure bred mares in the first place.

As far as I am concerned the best way forward for the Cleveland Bay is for more to compete in jumping and dressage.  

The top performing horse on the junior dressage team in the UK Spring Pascall is by a Hannoverian stallion out of a CB mare.


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## Rollin (26 June 2014)

LJR said:



			Out of interest, why do you think that their numbers have declined so much?  Surely the demand isn't there for a reason.

Or is it because they have been used for crossing with TB's mainly?
		
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I think the CB has been labelled as a stubborn horse.  There is a mis-conception that they are all 17hh giants, my first two stood at 15.2hh and 15.3hh.

They are slow maturing and I have found they don't like 'schooling' this was confirmed by another breeder and a trainer.  We back and hack then send them back to school.  We give them plenty of variety and plenty of time.  The oldest horse on my yard is 35, still working and has never given me a vet bill, we are sure he is a part-bred CB.

It is true that most part-breds are TB crosses.  We are crossing with Shagya Arabs (breed standard 15.2hh-16hh).  I think it will make a better sport horse but time will tell.

I don't know all the answers.  After we bought our first two,, everyone we met, farrier, vet nurse, show organiser, neighbour said "You have a CB.  The best horse I ever had was a Cleveland Bay".


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## _GG_ (26 June 2014)

Thank you for sharing such lovely photo's. If I thought I could find one in my budget in a few months or maybe next spring, I would pick a CB over pretty much any other breed if it moved well. I used to train one many years ago and she had the most wonderful temperament.


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## Clodagh (26 June 2014)

I think half there trouble is they are bay!
We have PC Camp here every year and 15 odd years ago most ponies were bay or grey. now they are every colour under the sun but bay is a minority.
She is gorgeous, good luck with her.


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## Rollin (26 June 2014)

Clodagh said:



			I think half there trouble is they are bay!
We have PC Camp here every year and 15 odd years ago most ponies were bay or grey. now they are every colour under the sun but bay is a minority.
She is gorgeous, good luck with her.
		
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Ha Ha (can't do those smiley faces)..I love my grey Shagya's but if you want to polish up for a photo there is nothing like a CB coat.  The filly in the picture has been living out with a shelter and we gave her 5 mins with a dandy brush!!


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## Hurricanelady (27 June 2014)

She's absolutely beautiful Rollin, what a lovely set of pictures all the very best of luck with her.  I wish I could have one!  Maybe in future


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## Nudibranch (28 June 2014)

Beautiful girls. The CB is very under-rated. I have one and she is a really genuine horse, a little quirky sometimes due to her separation anxiety but never under saddle. Not stubborn at all. When I next need to buy a horse it will be another CB. 

I was talking to the farrier yesterday about the breed status and the £500 grant but as he pointed out, there is serious overproduction at all levels of the market so how could CB's compete? Warmbloods are everywhere and TB's are cheap as chips. I agree with Rollin that the purebred mares are key for producing sport horses but since there are so many sport horses around is it ethical to keep churning them out into a flooded market? I would love to breed a CB foal or two but I would never feel confident of their future in the current climate. I am not directing that at Rollin by the way, I am thinking about people like myself who don't have the background (if that makes sense!). 

Perhaps if the wider issues around overproduction were dealt with, the CB might stand more of a chance?


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## Rollin (28 June 2014)

Nudibranch,

Struggling to get back on the forum!!!  

Carriage Driving Magazine produced a long article on the CB last year and opened with exactly your argument.  How do rare breeds survive when we are asked to breed fewer horses?  My Shagya's are also rare breeds but the breed society in France from starting with fewer than 10 pure bred horses now breed 70-80 foals each year.  It can be done.

The £500 I mentioned would only have been paid to me if the filly had been born in the UK - we don't qualify.  When we purchased this farm in France in 2005, the Cleveland Bay was not recognised as a pedigree horse and so excluded from many competitions it also made it impossible to breed CB's.  

More than three years later after many letters to CBHS and DEFRA the CB was still not recognised so I wrote to the French Prime Minister, 10 days later a phone call from his office in Paris and 6 weeks to get it all sorted.

I have the ONLY pure bred CB stallion standing in the whole of continental europe.  Here in France the market for leisure horses is huge - Le Trec, Pleasure Rides and Endurance plus lots of Club dressage and Jumping.

We are only just in a position to get our first youngsters out and about in competition.

British riders import horses bred in France, Germany and Holland in their thousands.  All of these countries have state run studs and equestrian organisations which support breeders.

The UK has a ministry of agriculture - a joke when you consider that other EU member states regard horse breeding as 'agriculture' and the UK still seem to think that keeping horses is for the idle rich.

We live close to the National Stud at Lion D'Angers, apart from the famous annual 3 day event for 6 and 7 year old horses, there are events all year round.  Dressage, SJ, side saddle, race meetings which are always packed out.  We also have access to a whole range of stud management training courses and AI technicians.

It is very difficult to find yards or trainers who can stand stallions.  ALL of the local trainers I use in France are set up to take stallions and to train them.

It is a different world.

British riders should look first at what is available in the UK.  Look at what the Food and Farming Awards and River Cottage have done to encourage British shoppers to buy their local produce.

We have no dormitory villages here, within 3kms of our house, three local villages provide us with 4 bakers, 3 butchers, 2 pork butchers, 3 grocers, 2 street markets, 2 PO's and 2 banks.

You don't know what you have till its gone!!


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## RightMove (28 June 2014)

I had a pb cb when I was younger so gentle and pleasure to own id love a full cb one day


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## Rollin (1 July 2014)

DearGG and Rightmove,

Thank you for sharing your very nice and positive experiences with Cleveland Bays.

A lady I used to speak to on another forum was a keen dressage rider and it was a part-bred CB mare who got her hooked - again she told me the mare 'was lovely'.


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## Alec Swan (1 July 2014)

Rollin,  your thread title explains the problem,  neatly.  As with all breeds which are rare or reduced,  there is going to be a reduced gene pool.  That stands to reason,  doesn't it?  With a reduced gene pool,  then there are going to be the undoubted raft of heritable problems.  That also makes sense,  doesn't it?

The problem with horses which have a reduced human interest, is that they have,  or are,  standing still.  They have ceased to evolve.  Though in far greater numerical numbers,  the Irish Draft,  is heading in exactly the same direction.  The C/B is a more advanced version of the I/D.  'Advanced' in as much as there has been no progress beyond the horse fitting in to a type which a judge believes fits the breed description.  C/Bs are no longer used to any extent for carriage work,  and the I/D no longer pulls a plough.  In other words,  it's very rare today for either breed to fill the role of its ancestors.

Now before the devotees have an attack of the vapours,  just think about what I'm saying,  and then ask yourselves what improvements in the individual breeds have been evident.  Over the last 40 years,  I'd suggest that 'Very few' is the answer.

We don't really hunt,  anymore,  and the traditional Hunter is in decline.  Which breeds,  or sport specific types are improving?  Show Jumpers,  Dressage Horses and Race Horses,  and do we accept that with demand,  so improvement will follow?

I have the greatest sympathy for those who champion the lesser breeds,  truly I do,  but they have stopped evolving as horses,  and until they find a fresh or a renewed purpose,  so the decline will continue.  

I admire your drive,  and your quest for improvement,  really I do,  but ...... The very same problems are evident in the rare breeds of cattle and sheep,  and the problem is that the world has left them behind,  because they have become archaic.

Alec.


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## RutlandH2O (1 July 2014)

Rollin, Your girls are stunning! Oh, if only I were 15 years younger. Between your Shagyar Arabs and your CBs...sigh.

Many, many years ago, well before I came to live in the UK, I was at one of my first Royal Shows. I saw breeds there that I had only ever seen in books. I was captivated when I found myself at the CB ring, and saw a mare and foal I have never forgotten. The foal took my breath away. It happened that they belonged to the Queen. 

I'm curious...with the reduced numbers in the CB breed, is there the problem of a lack of genetic diversity? Is there a grading up registry? I ask because I own 2 fully registered Baudet du Poitou anesses. The breed was in dire straits back in 1977, when it was discovered that there were only 44 purebreds worldwide. A group of committed, determined breeders, along with the Haras Nationaux, set out to save the breed from extinction. They used the Portuguese Miranda do Doura donkey (very similar in phenotype) and were very careful to prevent inbreeding. There are six families of Poitou donkeys that are recognised and are alternated to avoid doubling up in the first four or five generations. There are now approximately 600 Livre A (purebred) Poitous worldwide. Those that are partbred are Livre B.


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## Adina (2 July 2014)

Just like to clear up some misconceptions.  Firstly, 30 in the world - here we are talking purebred foals born in a single year.  Secondly - gene pool and inheritance, we have SPARKS monitoring inbreeding.  Thirdly - CB role of purebred is as an all-rounder.  Lots of "highly bred" horses are produced that the average person cannot ride.  The CB part-breds are Grand Prix dressage horses, 4* Eventers, Showjumpers, County winning show horses, high scoring Futurity foals.  If you don't know the bloodlines you wont know who they are.  The pures are still delivering diplomatic mail twice a day in the middle of London.


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## Archangel (2 July 2014)

One of my all time greats was a CB, she was fabulous and jumped the moon.  I had absolutely no trouble with her, lovely horse yet other people did get in a pickle with her and found her so strong (I think they held on to her).  They are a great improver breed on a first cross, such quality. 

Note to self - take more notice of Cleveland Bays


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## Rollin (2 July 2014)

Adina said:



			Just like to clear up some misconceptions.  Firstly, 30 in the world - here we are talking purebred foals born in a single year.  Secondly - gene pool and inheritance, we have SPARKS monitoring inbreeding.  Thirdly - CB role of purebred is as an all-rounder.  Lots of "highly bred" horses are produced that the average person cannot ride.  The CB part-breds are Grand Prix dressage horses, 4* Eventers, Showjumpers, County winning show horses, high scoring Futurity foals.  If you don't know the bloodlines you wont know who they are.  The pures are still delivering diplomatic mail twice a day in the middle of London.
		
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Alec and Rutland, you raise some similar points which I will answer later, I need to look up some information.

Adina, I did make it clear that this was last year's no of pure bred foals, Duchess is a yearling.  I also explained the SPARKS programme which we use.

I also agreed with another post that the CB is an ideal Riding Club Horse.


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## Rollin (2 July 2014)

Rutland and Alec,

I wanted to look up some facts and figures.  The fact that we bred only 32 pure bred CB's worldwide last year and about 25 the year before does not mean the end of the breed.

Rutland confirms what I have already said about the importance of National Stud support for Rare Breeds.  In fact there was virtually no presence for the Shagya in France in 1989 when the stallion Shogun was imported from Switzerland.  By 2006 56% of Shagya's in France were descended from him - but we don't speak of in breeding.  Now the French breeders breed 70-80 foals per annum and have the support of the Director of the French National Stud.

The National Stud also supported a campaign to increase number of Merens when their future was at risk...we have DEFRA.

As far as in-breeding is concerned, Dr. Dell's thesis states that a genetic bottleneck occurred 75-1000 years ago and was already present at the time of the inception of the stud book in 1884.  Here is a link if you would like to read more http://www.southernclevelandbayclub.co.uk/#/cw1202-dell-abstract/4559997748

CBHS has been divided on Grading Up, there already exists a GR which has been little used.  I now have two ShGxCB fillies and a CBxShG expected in 2015. I suppose I could start the process of grading up with my fillies but I am an OAP and will likely have my telegram from the Queen before we have a stud book entry!!!  Why would I do that?

Health consequences of in-breeding.  Search though I might, I cannot find any particular health problems associated with in-breeding.  I was told that CB's have poor hocks - so have a collection of 'hock' x-rays it is a myth.

I am told that in-breeding causes fertility problems and one of my mares who IS in bred (by accident) proved difficult to put in foal.  My Shagya stallion did the job after one covering.

Here is the result.







Alec you speak of Carriage Horses and Hunting as two sport in decline.  However, both require horses with 'endurance' the French word for stamina and for the British Hunt field a horse also needs the ability to jump solid obstacles out of deep ground.

The Shagya was bred to be a Cavalry Horse for the Imperial Cavalry of the Hapsburgs of my two foundation mares, purchased from the Hungarian National Stud, one is a carriage horse, she worked as a wheeler or leader and in a pic-axe.  You won't hear anyone in France or Germany say that the Shagya does not have a place in the modern world. My stallion's sire was an eventer and his dam sire an M level dressage horse in Germany.  Like CB's they can do it all.

I would suggest that all horses we ride today owe their origins to transport, warfare, work on the land and the recreation of the wealthy. 

To return to the Cleveland Bay, our stallions are given a licence on the basis of a five stage vetting so unless the owner asks for an inspection and grading there is no way of knowing if this horse meets 'breed standard'.

We have no stallion grading system which involves any sort of performance not even loose jumping.

Most CB competitions are showing classes, ridden or in hand.

So unless someone like me, starts a long thread like this with lots of lovely contributions form other Forum members, the equestrian world will have no idea about a Cleveland Bay and may think they just pull carriages!! (smiley face)


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## popsdosh (2 July 2014)

Rollin said:



			Alec and Rutland, you raise some similar points which I will answer later, I need to look up some information.

Adina, I did make it clear that this was last year's no of pure bred foals, Duchess is a yearling.  I also explained the SPARKS programme which we use.

I also agreed with another post that the CB is an ideal Riding Club Horse.
		
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I have to agree with Alec. I am afraid if the CB was an ideal horse it would not be in the position it is in now. Peoples perceptions are belied by the facts. It never moved on when it should have done. I knew several people who bred them 30+ years ago however they could not sell the youngstock as people did not want pure breds. Once a breed is only viable as a part bred thats the end for it.
Where do you find a pure bred horse nowadays within any competitive discipline apart from racing. Nearly all continental production is based on type rather than closed studbooks. 
This may sound hard as I personally used to love driving them and woul;d hate to see them gone but conversly I am not going out of my way to own one again.


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## Rollin (2 July 2014)

popsdosh said:



			I have to agree with Alec. I am afraid if the CB was an ideal horse it would not be in the position it is in now. Peoples perceptions are belied by the facts. It never moved on when it should have done. I knew several people who bred them 30+ years ago however they could not sell the youngstock as people did not want pure breds. Once a breed is only viable as a part bred thats the end for it.
Where do you find a pure bred horse nowadays within any competitive discipline apart from racing. Nearly all continental production is based on type rather than closed studbooks. 
This may sound hard as I personally used to love driving them and woul;d hate to see them gone but conversly I am not going out of my way to own one again.
		
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Well as long as CBHS don't have 'proper' stallion grading schemes or 'proper' performance that will be the case.

When you have the huge financial backing of a National Stud and turn out thousands of horses SOME will make it to the top.

When you are on the RBST critical list with no National Stud to support - the fact that a few make it to the top is indicative of TRUE quality.

If you are searching for a pure bred of true quality from a closed stud book, can I direct you to the SHGB website and the top stallion at their Spring Grading who is a Shagya!!

If this pure bred CB had not suffered trauma* in his early years, he too would be competing with the best. (*untreated and badly healed fractures)


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## tristar (9 July 2014)

a driving man once told me that after one of the wars, 2nd world war I think, that there were only a few pure bred stallions left, and this lead to unavoidable inbreeding, I think it would not be a bad idea to introduce a limited infusion of, say thoroughbred blood of a physically similar type of horse, after all most of the stud books have done this in the past, and most of the present day warmbloods owe much of their success to this component, well if its needed that is. breeds like the traks are infused with tb and arab blood and they have sired some of the very top competition horses today.
there are quite a few purebred Iberian horses at the top of dressage, to commercialise or create a demand for a breed you have to create something that people will want to buy and showcase it to the world at large


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## Magnetic Sparrow (9 July 2014)

I don't normally enter the Breeding discussion room, but I wanted to stick up for the Cleveland Bay. I have my first pure bred and she's only 4 so we can't do much yet. I had two part breds before and promised myself I would buy a pure bred as my next horse.

My CB is an absolute joy and exactly what I expected. She is opinionated, but not stubborn or awkward and she has been a pleasure to break in. She can already move well and I suspect she will love jumping much more than me. I really can't understand why everyone doesn't want one!

I think the Irish Draught took the place of the CB and became 'fashionable' for many years. The CB seemed to get moved from its natural home and declined. Clevelands seem to me to be ideal for anyone who wants a horse that can turn its hoof to anything but is straightforward, honest and sensible.


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## Rollin (10 July 2014)

tristar said:



			a driving man once told me that after one of the wars, 2nd world war I think, that there were only a few pure bred stallions left, and this lead to unavoidable inbreeding, I think it would not be a bad idea to introduce a limited infusion of, say thoroughbred blood of a physically similar type of horse, after all most of the stud books have done this in the past, and most of the present day warmbloods owe much of their success to this component, well if its needed that is. breeds like the traks are infused with tb and arab blood and they have sired some of the very top competition horses today.
there are quite a few purebred Iberian horses at the top of dressage, to commercialise or create a demand for a breed you have to create something that people will want to buy and showcase it to the world at large
		
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Perfectly acceptable to introduce TB blood, two Olympic Showjumpers, one winner at Burleigh were CBXTB.  We call it a part-bred.  I breed part breds and pure breds but my part breds are Shagya crosses.

The Yorkshire Coach Horse was a CBXTB but pure bred CB stallions were always allowed into the YCH stud book...too much TB was detrimental to the breed.  The YCH stud book closed in 1936.  The CB stud book survived.

You mention the Trakehner at last years EU Shagya Championships the TrK Society gave thanks to the ShG breed society for the contribution made to the survival of their breed.  I would suggest the Shagya was more important than the TB.


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## Rollin (10 July 2014)

Magnetic Sparrow said:



			I don't normally enter the Breeding discussion room, but I wanted to stick up for the Cleveland Bay. I have my first pure bred and she's only 4 so we can't do much yet. I had two part breds before and promised myself I would buy a pure bred as my next horse.

My CB is an absolute joy and exactly what I expected. She is opinionated, but not stubborn or awkward and she has been a pleasure to break in. She can already move well and I suspect she will love jumping much more than me. I really can't understand why everyone doesn't want one!

I think the Irish Draught took the place of the CB and became 'fashionable' for many years. The CB seemed to get moved from its natural home and declined. Clevelands seem to me to be ideal for anyone who wants a horse that can turn its hoof to anything but is straightforward, honest and sensible.
		
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Agreed!!!  Honest and sensible.  Ground covering paces and up to weight.

I have two five year olds, last year we just brought them on gently.

This year one is hacking out alone and coping with all the scarey things we have in the country.  COWS!!!  Tractors, cyclists.  

The other is more nervous so we take things gently she already shows promise as a dressage horse.

Our French stable jockey spent two years working in a Racing yard.  There is only ONE stallion he wants for his TB mares - it is our CB, Arthur.  He would steal him if he could.


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## cptrayes (10 July 2014)

I think there are two problems, having read the whole thread. The first is that they are great all rounders. But if someone wants an all rounder, they will not only find one out of an Irish bog for a fraction of the price of a purebredd of any breed, but they are also far more numerous.

The other problem is that they are, by definition, bay with no white markings, and that does reduce their attraction to many people. I would not choose one over an otherwise equal horse with a nice star and four whites, purely on the looks.

They are lovely horses that you have bred OP, anyone can see the quality shines out.


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## CBAnglo (10 July 2014)

They are both beautiful Rollin. 

I have a CBxTB and he is wonderful - definitely my horse of a lifetime.  If he didn't have juvenile arthritis and had to be retired to light hacking at 7 he would have been an amazing competition horse.  He was fantastic in the school - so trainable.  I didn't ride him at all for 2 yrs then hopped on his back to nanny our new horse out hacking.  I reminded him of the aids (2 mins) then we set off as if he had been ridden the day before.

I would definitely have another one, but they are so rarely for sale.


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## tristar (10 July 2014)

cb x tb is obviously to any breeder a cross.

I`m suggesting using a tb like kings composer, to cross with cb then back again to cb until you arrive at a stallion with 12 1/2  0/0 tb .

the object is too arrive at a new stallion or stallions for the stud to breed purebred cb`s with new genetic diversity.

with the traks each tb or arab stallion used has bought its own type and qualities to the breed and influenced different herds in different ways.


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## Rollin (10 July 2014)

tristar said:



			cb x tb is obviously to any breeder a cross.

I`m suggesting using a tb like kings composer, to cross with cb then back again to cb until you arrive at a stallion with 12 1/2  0/0 tb .

the object is too arrive at a new stallion or stallions for the stud to breed purebred cb`s with new genetic diversity.

with the traks each tb or arab stallion used has bought its own type and qualities to the breed and influenced different herds in different ways.
		
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We already have a grading register and so I could in theory breed my two ShGxCB fillies back to a CB stallion and then again to a CB so that eventually we have a horse which can be registered in the CB stud book.  However, the GR is not used very much and the proposal to change the amount of other blood has torn the society apart.

In addition the RBST have warned that a change to the stud book will result in a loss of HBLB funding.

As I have already said a TB cross is not for me.  The Shagya has bone, stamina, looks and a great temperament.  When our own stallion was with Seb. Poirier I had glowing reports on how easy and well behaved he was on the yard.

For my own part our mare is in foal again to our own stallion, if we produce a colt with the quality of the filly shown at 15 months I intend to have him competing not just in CB showing classes.  That will be the real test of quality.


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## Meowy Catkin (10 July 2014)

Rollin, if it was decided to introduce TB blood (and I'm not saying that they should) I would have thought that you would have to be very strict over which TB's were allowed. The example given by tristar for example (Kings Composer) is Brown rather than Bay and has white on his OH, I guess that would be an issue? I've not seen many CB's but they have all been true bays with no white. Being bay seems to be a fundamental thing.

I do wonder if it was fashion that was against them in the past? They are very useful horses and I believe that the breed does have a future if more people begin to recognise their worth. I really hope that it's not too late.


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## Kaylum (10 July 2014)

There was no money in breeding Clevelands.. Breeding for the police they wanted IDs and so the CBs were sold and the IDs were bought. It was supply and demand. This was when a guy used to come round buying for the police from our stud. Knaresborough warlock was the stallion at ours.


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## Spring Feather (11 July 2014)

Someone said it above; most other breeds moved on, the CB never did.  I suspect, in order for them to move on, and in turn become more popular, they would have to open their stud books to other breeds (as the vast majority of the WB registries have) whereby TB or Arab stallions can be graded and licensed for breeding within the purebred category and thus, resulting foals from those matings are given purebred papers.  I can see a number of problems with that however to retain certain traits within a breed which has colour restrictions.


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## Pipkin (11 July 2014)

I have one, had her since she was a four yo now nine. She is bloody fab! Not your stereotypical 17 hander either, she's 15.2hh, built like brick ****house and super safe. is she stubborn? Not really, she likes to know what your asking and not be confused, she was originally my OHs horse but they didnt get on, he's better off with a gelding lol.
she's the one horse I trust 100% with my life, lots of character, not scared of a thing, the only bad thing is she is an extremely good doer


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## Rollin (11 July 2014)

Thank you to all of you for your more recent posts - lots I need to reply to BUT we have a 60km endurance tomorrow so please forgive me if I don't respond till Monday.

Wish us luck with our Shagya.


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## tristar (11 July 2014)

best of  luck with the shagya, take lots of photos please


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## Rollin (13 July 2014)

tristar said:



			best of  luck with the shagya, take lots of photos please
		
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In brief, I don't want to steal the CB thread and will answer tomorrow.

The boy done good, speed 13.77kph (for 6 year olds it must be 12-15kph).  Final heart rate 38 - a REALLY good result.  As at Lion D'Angers he got a special mention from the organisers.  

We were delighted with him.  For prize giving he had to share  a small enclosure arena with 20+ mares and geldings and was perfectly behaved.  I will post some photos on a separate thread.


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## Rollin (14 July 2014)

Answers at last.  it is Bastille Day and we are off racing soon.  Just have time to answer a few points.

CP Trayes, yes there are plenty of inexpensive horses in Ireland.  Remember that Ireland like Continental Europe treat horses as agricultural products.  The breeders have an economic advantage not enjoyed by the UK.

I don't think CB's are expensive, plenty for sale at around £2k-£2.5K and some for as little as £1K.  I think they are a bargain.  My four year old Shagya filly full sister to our stallion will command 2-3X the price of my lovely CB filly.

Kaylum.  Agreed there has been no money in breeding CB's.  We support our stud through our pensions.  There is no money however, because the quality of the breed has never been properly recognised or promoted.  The society has recently been approached again to provide horses for the mounted police.  I ideally 7 years old.

Faracat.  Spot on.  I don't know the true history but Cleveland Bays must be bay with no white markings or roaning other than a white star, which is permitted.  Once upon a time the stud book refused to register CB's with white feet.  Now they are included but registered as mis-marked, other passports are issued 'meets breed standard'.

I became interested in the breed, because my first horse, bought for carriage driving is I think and un-registered part bred.  This got me hooked on the breed, he is such a star, literally been on TV and in many films.

My personal view.  A Light Harness Horse Instructor, told me that the perfect matched pair was "The same horse twice".  We forget the origins.  Before we had motor cars, if you were rich your Rolls Royce was a perfectly matched team of four in hand.  The CB breeds true to type and traditional breeders have kept it that way.

The Edinburgh Mail, London-Edinburgh ran 400 miles in 40 hours, remember they had to stop to change teams.  So these horses averaged over 10miles per hour pulling a road coach in all weathers, over 30 miles.  That is the faster than my endurance stallion last weekend.  He did not have to pull a coach.


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## RutlandH2O (14 July 2014)

Well done with your Shagya!


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## ester (14 July 2014)

Rollin I am sure you have your reasons but I am a little confused when you are pointing out that the number of births are so low yet are crossing out some of your pure CB mares?

I guess the all rounder category is already pretty full and doesn't need a specific breed maintaining for it, I have a great allrounder welshie - plenty of those crossed with TBs, also know a lot of TB allrounders before you even get started on the irish mixes.


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## Rollin (14 July 2014)

Spring Feather said:



			Someone said it above; most other breeds moved on, the CB never did.  I suspect, in order for them to move on, and in turn become more popular, they would have to open their stud books to other breeds (as the vast majority of the WB registries have) whereby TB or Arab stallions can be graded and licensed for breeding within the purebred category and thus, resulting foals from those matings are given purebred papers.  I can see a number of problems with that however to retain certain traits within a breed which has colour restrictions.
		
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Yes and No.

I have lots of issues with our breed society.  As one previous Breed Chair said, "we parade fat stallions round on a piece of string".

I don't agree with opening the stud book,  Our Shagya's stud book is older than CBHS and only pure bred Arabian stallions who have undergone rigorous testing are admitted and then only once in five generations.  Warmbloods? Never.  I like my Shagya's just the way they are.

I have actually spoken to a number of warmblood stud books in Europe.  They will not accept the progeny of any CB stallion because the CBHS is not a member of WBSHF!! Yet as you know the Oldenburgh stud book owes much to the CB stallions who were exported to Germany.

The membership cost is £1,000 per annum.  

Again as with our Shagya, I like my horses just the way they are.  I would not want to risk breeding in 'too hot', 'flat feet' 'OCD', which might come with some breeds.

Our horses are very fit and sound, plenty of people on this forum are 'overhorsed' or spend all their money on vet fees for their lame horses.

There is plenty to praise in a closed stud book.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (14 July 2014)

I had a CB by Mulgrave or Mulgrave Supreme [it was the elder ], [we are going back now] he had good temperament and safe as well as being a good hunter type, we had a CB "meet" and I think about 10 turned out, that was 1973 , so at that time there were quite a few about.
I thought about offering him to the police, but he was not outstandingly big, even though he was a full on 16.2.
Re an out-cross, there are big TB s, the ones used in NH racing, they would be fine.


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## Rollin (14 July 2014)

ester said:



			Rollin I am sure you have your reasons but I am a little confused when you are pointing out that the number of births are so low yet are crossing out some of your pure CB mares?

I guess the all rounder category is already pretty full and doesn't need a specific breed maintaining for it, I have a great allrounder welshie - plenty of those crossed with TBs, also know a lot of TB allrounders before you even get started on the irish mixes.
		
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I breed pure breds too.  Another due next year and I have frozen semen for the daughters of my own stallion.

Please remember, I had no support whatsoever from either my breed society or DEFRA when we purchased this stud in France.  The CB was not recognised as a pedigree horse but a cheval de trait - cart horse!!!

I had a three year old filly who we could not compete, breed from or take off our farm.  Eventually, I wrote to the French Prime Minister and within 6 weeks all was resolved.

Two Trustees of CBHS each exported two pure bred mares to France.  One colt foal has never been registered in the stud book and two pure bred mares are 'lost'.


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## Rollin (14 July 2014)

MrsD123 said:



			I had a CB by Mulgrave or Mulgrave Supreme [it was the elder ], [we are going back now] he had good temperament and safe as well as being a good hunter type, we had a CB "meet" and I think about 10 turned out, that was 1973 , so at that time there were quite a few about.
I thought about offering him to the police, but he was not outstandingly big, even though he was a full on 16.2.
Re an out-cross, there are big TB s, the ones used in NH racing, they would be fine.
		
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Mulgrave was 1952 and Suprme 1961.

I agree about NH TB mares.  Our French stable jockey has several TB's one racing, another jumping.  He wants to breed an eventer from our stallion (quite chuffed that never having seen a CB, he thinks there is only ONE stallion to breed his eventers).

We are looking for a NH type mare at the moment.


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## Rollin (14 July 2014)

Pipkin said:



			I have one, had her since she was a four yo now nine. She is bloody fab! Not your stereotypical 17 hander either, she's 15.2hh, built like brick ****house and super safe. is she stubborn? Not really, she likes to know what your asking and not be confused, she was originally my OHs horse but they didnt get on, he's better off with a gelding lol.
she's the one horse I trust 100% with my life, lots of character, not scared of a thing, the only bad thing is she is an extremely good doer 








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Getting out of sequence.

So nice  for another owner to praise the safe and sensible Cleveland Bay....that is why they pull carriages down the Mall with 1,000's of people shouting and waving flags!!

Agreed they are not all 17hh giants.  My first two were 15.2hh and 15.3hh.  My husband took up riding in his 50's our 15.2hh pure bred mare never gave him a moment of anxiety  AND was a Champion Small Show Hunter.  Thank your for your support.


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## ester (14 July 2014)

Rollin said:



			Our horses are very fit and sound, plenty of people on this forum are 'overhorsed' or spend all their money on vet fees for their lame horses.

There is plenty to praise in a closed stud book.
		
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I think you'd still end up with them even if there were a lot more CBs about! 

With only about 50 mares on the premium list and the necessity to prevent in-breeding there is always going to be a top limit on number of foals that can be produced each year, and take a long time for that to increase.


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## Kaylum (15 July 2014)

Rollin I am really pleased the police are interested in the breed again x mum's friend used to be the secretary for the CB breed society.


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## Rollin (15 July 2014)

ester said:



			I think you'd still end up with them even if there were a lot more CBs about! 

With only about 50 mares on the premium list and the necessity to prevent in-breeding there is always going to be a top limit on number of foals that can be produced each year, and take a long time for that to increase.
		
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Perhaps I express my self badly.  Of course people will still be overhorsed and dissapointed - I just hoped that in highlighting the plight of the Cleveland Bay, people looking for a new horse would think outside the box.

The Premium scheme has been replaced by QA.  Were you including both Premium and QA in your figures?

As with other stud books, mares are presented only at owners' request.  It costs in time and money and the fact that some mares are not put forward for QA, does not mean they are not quality mares.  In fact one of the most successful breeders of pure and part bred Clevelands, sees no value in going down this route.

I do and we paid for inspections last year, but overseas members incur much higher costs than UK members.  It is a particular problem in the USA.

For my own mares I have enough choice to comply with the SPARKS programme to avoid in-breeding.

At the moment I have four pure bred mares,  two part-bred fillies  one of breeding age, and one pure bred yearling filly + a stallion.

I could in theory be breeding 6 pure and part bred per annum.  If there is no market for Cleveland Bays, there is no point in breeding more.  We balance our breeding programme with competition.  All our pure bred mares are broken to ride.


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## Rollin (15 July 2014)

Kaylum said:



			Rollin I am really pleased the police are interested in the breed again x mum's friend used to be the secretary for the CB breed society.
		
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I wonder if they ever truly lost interest?  The WHW officer in Central Scotland, was ex-mounted police and rode a pure bred mare who he was very fond of.  I was a BHS access officer and did a lot of fund raising for BHS and WHW which is how we came to meet.

One of my English riding friends, here in France, has a good friend working for another mounted police force in North of UK.  She has a part bred CB and the force have just purchased a pure bred.


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## ester (15 July 2014)

I went on the CB society webpage and that is what it told me re. the mares. 

It is a bit chicken and egg though, if we all decided that CBs were our ideal mounts and we wanted to buy one we couldn't.


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## Rollin (15 July 2014)

ester said:



			I went on the CB society webpage and that is what it told me re. the mares. 

It is a bit chicken and egg though, if we all decided that CBs were our ideal mounts and we wanted to buy one we couldn't.
		
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Thank you, I will ask about that, I think some of the site is not as up to date as it should be.  Agreed it is chicken and egg.


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## Laputyn (16 July 2014)

Gorgeous horses! Always liked them since I found out they were called Chapman horses years ago (little bit of surname pride).

If I were to buy a horse I'd love to looks at one of these around the 15.2hh range. I'm a pony person but I'd make an exception for these.
Love the build, there's a such a "classic" look to them. You could imagine them out hunting 200 years ago!


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## Rollin (16 July 2014)

Laputyn said:



			Gorgeous horses! Always liked them since I found out they were called Chapman horses years ago (little bit of surname pride).

If I were to buy a horse I'd love to looks at one of these around the 15.2hh range. I'm a pony person but I'd make an exception for these.
Love the build, there's a such a "classic" look to them. You could imagine them out hunting 200 years ago!
		
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I have a 15hh part-bred spitting image of her CB yummy mummy.  Her stable name is Rottwieler, when we sell her we will advertise her as a St. Trinians escapee.  We do love her though.

There was an amazing part-bred on the UK Pony Eventing Team, by the stallion Baydale Juryman - how he sired a pony is a mystery.


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## joulsey (30 July 2014)

Very interesting thread, I ride a CBxTB, although I suspect she is more on the TB side going off her bone.

Surely these horses would not look out of place as MW/HW Hunters at county shows, and they ooze presence and quality (I think anyway), or have they been over taken by ID's and ID x's?


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## Rollin (30 July 2014)

joulsey said:



			Very interesting thread, I ride a CBxTB, although I suspect she is more on the TB side going off her bone.

Surely these horses would not look out of place as MW/HW Hunters at county shows, and they ooze presence and quality (I think anyway), or have they been over taken by ID's and ID x's?
		
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Welly has said it all on my other thread with Hattie, doing 20km endurance.  One of our mares (sadly lost to colic) qualified for the Scottish Masters as a small hunter.  She was a star in the show ring.

As Welly has said not enough CB's compete with other horses in the show ring. Too many are just used for breeding.

 I note that SHGB have a new hunter class for older and younger riders.  If we can make it I plan to send three pure bred mares to the UK next year to strut their stuff.  The dam and four year old daughter in this thread plus Hattie who is pictured on my other thread.

I also have two ShGxCB and a CBxShG due next year.


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## Rollin (4 August 2014)

Joulsey, when I have loaded onto photobucket some more pics of other CB's at two shows in the SE.

This year's tally.

So far 16 pure breds in UK and 8 overseas for this year.  It just shows how important overseas breeders may be for the survival of the Cleveland Bay.


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