# Beagle killed in dog attack



## Moobli (25 November 2017)

WARNING : Do not watch the video if you are of a sensitive disposition!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5112185/Im-devastated-sorry-says-owner-dogs.html

Chester, a beagle, was out with his dog walker when he was attacked and killed by two aggressive dogs.  The dogs involved are reported to be a Bully Kutta and the other a Rhodesian Ridgeback x Staffie (one looks remarkably like a Dogo Argentino with cropped ears and the other like a pitbull).  BSL doesn't work, we all know that, but it is hard for me to understand why on earth someone wants a powerful, aggressive dog such as a Bully Kutta as a family pet.  Bullys and other similar breeds are not good pet material.  As far as I know they have never been kept as such during the development of the breed and are bred for dog fighting in Pakistan.

In this instance, I hope the dogs are euthanised and the owner prosecuted under the DDA.  It must have been horrifying for the dog walker to witness and for the beagle's owners to have to come to terms with.


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## Pearlsasinger (25 November 2017)

I haven't watched the video and have no intention of doing so but

Who the hell stood there videoing that?


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## Moobli (25 November 2017)

Pearlsasinger said:



			I haven't watched the video and have no intention of doing so but

Who the hell stood there videoing that?
		
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There are different reports that I have read.  One says it was the dog walker and she only started filming after the poor beagle was dead (within 30 seconds) and you can hear her sobbing and crying out in it, and the other said it was a passer-by.  It could be a generational thing but I would not even think to get my phone out and start filming while my dog (or one in my care) was being ripped to shreds, but I guess it is common practice nowadays and at least it has been passed to the police so the owner of the attacking dogs has no chance of escaping justice.


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## Pearlsasinger (25 November 2017)

WorkingGSD said:



			There are different reports that I have read.  One says it was the dog walker and she only started filming after the poor beagle was dead (within 30 seconds) and you can hear her sobbing and crying out in it, and the other said it was a passer-by.  It could be a generational thing but I would not even think to get my phone out and start filming while my dog (or one in my care) was being ripped to shreds, but I guess it is common practice nowadays and at least it has been passed to the police so the owner of the attacking dogs has no chance of escaping justice.
		
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Yes, I can see the value of having the film after the event but getting my phone out under those circumstances would be the last thing I thought of - mind you it would probably take me about 5 minutes to work out how to film it anyway! Definitely a generational thing.  But I would have been in there trying to stop the attack (not advisable, I know).  I am glad that the owner of the attacking dogs will be held accountable, I only wish that the penalties were stronger.


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## ycbm (25 November 2017)

Pearlsasinger said:



			I haven't watched the video and have no intention of doing so but

Who the hell stood there videoing that?
		
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I wouldn't dream of trying to get two dangerous dogs off another dog, so I would happily film it to provide evidence for a prosecution.


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## rara007 (25 November 2017)

No chance of me trying to stop the attack! If I had something to throw I might try that but I don&#8217;t usually walk with much ammo beyond a poo bag holder! My safety above any dogs life I&#8217;m afraid.


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## millikins (25 November 2017)

rara007 said:



			No chance of me trying to stop the attack! If I had something to throw I might try that but I dont usually walk with much ammo beyond a poo bag holder! My safety above any dogs life Im afraid.
		
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This. I have seen the result of a human intervening in a serious dog attack. (I was a student nurse in theatres) In this case a lady in her 60's who tried to stop her son's 2 GSD fighting over a stick. The dogs then turned on her and she was lucky to survive, they'd ripped her flesh to the bone on several limbs. These were family dogs with no history of aggression who she knew well.


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## Amymay (25 November 2017)

The footage was filmed by someone who came to the Dog walkers aid. Thank God as there is hard evidence of the attack and the owner and dogs were very quickly identified.

Sickening.


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## {97702} (25 November 2017)

Words fail me.  That poor dog.  The attacking dogs should be immediately PTS and the owner prosecuted, I cannot believe he walked away 

I agree with amymay, totally sickening


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## Cinnamontoast (25 November 2017)

Pearlsasinger said:



			I haven't watched the video and have no intention of doing so but

Who the hell stood there videoing that?
		
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Same to both. I know I would probably have been attacked by the dogs, but I would have been in there, boots flailing had it been one of mine. That poor little dog and the poor dog walker. 

I totally see the value of the video, it will be brilliant evidence. I hope both dogs are euthanised and the owner strongly sanctioned.


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## GirlFriday (25 November 2017)

rara007 said:



			No chance of me trying to stop the attack! If I had something to throw I might try that but I don&#8217;t usually walk with much ammo beyond a poo bag holder! My safety above any dogs life I&#8217;m afraid.
		
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I've stopped a similar attack on my own dog by an American pitbull type and something a little chunkier. But I've never been so physically scared for my own life (inc motorway car accidents and numerous falls from equines) and I couldn't have done it alone. I also knew that there would be a point where I'd put me first and may have to face watching the child's dog be ripped to shreds and telling child I'd made that decision so it wouldn't be child's mother AND child's dog torn apart - and I was incredibly sad about that. I was fortunate to have a large and strong ish umbrella to hand (it was raining) and that the larger of the two dogs started to go for me - at which point a passer by did intervene to pull that one back from me which allowed me to grab my little mutt (calculated risk that I could fight off the American pitbull whilst the otehr was restrained). Also was incredibly fortunate that the American pitbull had picked mine up by his harness and he managed to wriggle free from that leaving her shaking that around without him in. And that both the larger dogs had harnesses on which withstood being grabbed.

I'm still talking (writing) about it months later because it was horrible. And TBH I can understand why no-one would intervene for a dog that wasn't theirs. Although the two owners involved in my incident doing nothing at all was unforgivable I thought.

Very sad.


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## ILuvCowparsely (25 November 2017)

Sorry in light of what others say I cannot watch it as  it would be too upsetting and haunt me.  Dogs ought to be PTS and owner procecuted


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## cobgoblin (25 November 2017)

Dear God!... How disgusting... And to think that guy says the dogs are gentle with his 3yr old daughter, until they're not.


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## bonny (25 November 2017)

Truely horrific, these dogs just have no place in people's homes, just have to hope they have been destroyed already and maybe someone, somewhere will think again about what they consider to have as a pet. To think that they lived with small children.


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## CorvusCorax (25 November 2017)

I have only seen the stills.

If you stepped into that (two dogs of that size on one) without being armed with something, you'd probably be hospitalised and maybe lose the use of your arms/hands and never be able to work again. Lucky you had brave people to help GirlFriday.
The dog was apparently beyond help at that stage and as mentioned the video could do more in terms of a prosecution than a vet could do with the poor mite.

I've been on my own with an under control large dog, when an even bigger dog has tried to have a go and once when his mate joined in.....it is horrible and whilst I do protect him with my body and feet and took to walking with a schooling whip, it would my worst nightmare, meeting dogs like that, who wouldn't be stopped.
Once when said humongous dog came running at us, a workman saw me start to swear and turn in the other direction and he very kindly chased it away from us.


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## Moobli (25 November 2017)

GirlFriday said:



			I've stopped a similar attack on my own dog by an American pitbull type and something a little chunkier. But I've never been so physically scared for my own life (inc motorway car accidents and numerous falls from equines) and I couldn't have done it alone. I also knew that there would be a point where I'd put me first and may have to face watching the child's dog be ripped to shreds and telling child I'd made that decision so it wouldn't be child's mother AND child's dog torn apart - and I was incredibly sad about that. I was fortunate to have a large and strong ish umbrella to hand (it was raining) and that the larger of the two dogs started to go for me - at which point a passer by did intervene to pull that one back from me which allowed me to grab my little mutt (calculated risk that I could fight off the American pitbull whilst the otehr was restrained). Also was incredibly fortunate that the American pitbull had picked mine up by his harness and he managed to wriggle free from that leaving her shaking that around without him in. And that both the larger dogs had harnesses on which withstood being grabbed.

I'm still talking (writing) about it months later because it was horrible. And TBH I can understand why no-one would intervene for a dog that wasn't theirs. Although the two owners involved in my incident doing nothing at all was unforgivable I thought.

Very sad.
		
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Sounds absolutely horrendous GF   I am gad you and your dog were ok.


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## MotherOfChickens (25 November 2017)

god, just hideous-poor wee dug and so traumatic for the walker and the owners. 

I did wade into a dog attack-a GSD that attacked my setter. I went in safety-rigger boots first and I strongly believe that if I hadnt, my dog would have been dead-he had teeth marks and bruising all around his penis. It happened at work just outside security and two of them, me and the owner managed somehow to get him off-my dog was under him on the ground literally screaming. I wish the bloody thing had bitten me, I'd have had it PTS much quicker than it finally was.


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## TheresaW (25 November 2017)

That actually made me cry.

A few years ago, I took a friends dog to the vet early one morning that had been attacked whilst he was on lead. (She didnt want her children to see him in the state he was in). It was horrific, and the owner had been hurt pulling the other dogs off.  Owner of attacking dogs couldnt have given a ****, and sadly Tinks died a couple of days later.


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## Amymay (25 November 2017)

I was thinking about this, walking my dog this afternoon.

I genuinely think I'd do jail time if You happened (or even remotely happened) to Daisy.


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## TheresaW (25 November 2017)

amymay said:



			I was thinking about this, walking my dog this afternoon.

I genuinely think I'd do jail time if You happened (or even remotely happened) to Daisy.
		
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Me too.


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## el_Snowflakes (26 November 2017)

I won't watch the video but did see the short clip of the man walking away. A very strange response in my opinion. It's incidents like this that make me wish that people had to have a license to own a dog, to prove that you have the knowledge and skills to effectively train your dog. To me it's crazy that people are allowed to own powerful animals with little/no understanding of dog behaviour and training.


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## maisie06 (26 November 2017)

Tragic - and incidents like this will keep on happening unless legislation changes. Like another poster says, dogs like this have no place in the domestic home, they are bred for one purpose only - aggression. Our powers that be need to grow a pair and ban these dogs. 

For those already in the country, compulsory neutering, muzzled and on lead in public, and compulsory public liability insurance for a start. I would like to see dog licencing back too - plus a face to face interview for anyone wanting to own bull breeds to see that they were wanting them for purposes other than a status symbol.
No bull breeds allowed in social housing either.

In this case the person in charge of the dogs should be jailed - his attitude was disgusting, and he would be made to watch those dogs be PTS in front of him and be made to dig the holes to bury them in too. 

Poor little Beagle RIP. I would be devastated if it was my dog and would probably be in jail after shooting said dogs and owner.


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## MurphysMinder (26 November 2017)

The owner of the attacking dogs tries to justify the walking away by saying he was trying to get the dogs to follow him
http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...ews/owner-dogs-killed-beagle-salford-13945497

Someone has posted elsewhere saying that these dogs had attacked their dog some time ago but they  hadn't been able to identify the owner until now,  so think his attempt to get the sympathy vote would seem to have backfired.


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## el_Snowflakes (26 November 2017)

MurphysMinder said:



			The owner of the attacking dogs tries to justify the walking away by saying he was trying to get the dogs to follow him
http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...ews/owner-dogs-killed-beagle-salford-13945497

Someone has posted elsewhere saying that these dogs had attacked their dog some time ago but they  hadn't been able to identify the owner until now,  so think his attempt to get the sympathy vote would seem to have backfired.
		
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The fact that he thought 2 dogs in full blown attack mode would follow him as he walked away just demonstrates his lack of understanding of dog behaviour & bolsters my view that licenses should be required to own dogs, particularly powerful breeds. The fact that these dogs had been totally misplaced in a family home with young kids is terrifying, unbelievable & quite frankly idiotic.


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## {97702} (26 November 2017)

amymay said:



			I was thinking about this, walking my dog this afternoon.

I genuinely think I'd do jail time if You happened (or even remotely happened) to Daisy.
		
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Definitely me too


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## {97702} (26 November 2017)

el_Snowflakes said:



			The fact that he thought 2 dogs in full blown attack mode would follow him as he walked away just demonstrates his lack of understanding of dog behaviour & bolsters my view that licenses should be required to own dogs, particularly powerful breeds. The fact that these dogs had been totally misplaced in a family home with young kids is terrifying, unbelievable & quite frankly idiotic.
		
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The owner is a total moron who should be banned from owning any animal and also jailed for what his dogs did - we HAVE to start making people accountable for the actions of their dogs, or I believe that they will continue to see them as 'status symbol' accessories


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## Pinkvboots (26 November 2017)

I haven't watched the clip but did see some pictures on a news report, I really cannot understand how the owners of those dogs are happy for there 3 year old daughter to live under the same roof they must be bloody mad.


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## maisie06 (26 November 2017)

Pinkvboots said:



			I haven't watched the clip but did see some pictures on a news report, I really cannot understand how the owners of those dogs are happy for there 3 year old daughter to live under the same roof they must be bloody mad.
		
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Or totally bloody thick as those type of people often are...


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## AdorableAlice (26 November 2017)

Hopefully both have been removed and shot by now, if they haven't and they remain the family home they are a major risk to anything or any person getting near them.

Surely they would not have gone home after the incident ?


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## GTRJazz (26 November 2017)

We had trouble a few years ago with a couple of pit ball types they had eaten a hole just big enough to get out of in the back gate and were hunting cats. I saw them coming back with one and lost it. smashed the gate in and got the cat off them I was making a lot of noise but did not directly attack them. The cat died in my arms but still better than getting eaten. You could hear the owner calling for the cat for a couple of days and to her credit the dogs owner told her what had happened.


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## Cinnamontoast (26 November 2017)

Don&#8217;t know if the guy was identified and found or if the police were called and took the dogs? 

A bloody Akita/malamute mix put holes in Brig the other week. He should not own a dog that drags him everywhere and he persists in standing still and letting his dog yank at the lead, to &#8216;socialise&#8217; it. Branleur.


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## SusieT (26 November 2017)

I believe the dogs have been seized. ( Quite rightly). Were they mine I would feel obliged to have them euthansied as they would never be safe off lead and unmuzzled around other dogs - beagles are not so small as to be obvious prey.
I think the man may have been walking away in the hope the dogs would come if he left and once there was obviously nothign to be done for the poor beagle. 
Poor dog, poor owner.


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## Moobli (27 November 2017)

Yes the police have seized the dogs and I have no doubt they will be (rightly) euthanised. If my dogs ever killed another dog like that then I would have them put down myself - as hard as that would be.  The owner was reported in one of the papers to have said that he won't see his dogs again because if they aren't destroyed then he would have to rehome them due to the flack he would get in the area if he was seen walking them!!  I really hope he is banned from keeping dogs for life!


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## criso (27 November 2017)

Did anybody watch the video?

I did and while you can't see the attack clearly the sobs of the walker are horrible to hear.

But what you do see is the owner of the dogs in there trying to physically drag first one dog and then the other off and not being able to.  He then walks away.  

Not justifying anything but just wanted to clarify for those asking about him walking away.


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## Apercrumbie (27 November 2017)

I just hate the proliferation of this kind of dog in the UK. Yes, bad owners not bad dogs etc but the amount of damage dogs like these can do is terrifying. I hate that they are seen as status symbols. I understand that it would be rare that they attack a member of their family, but the danger they pose to those not in their family is terrifying. Those dogs were killing for fun - that's not their fault, it's what they were bred to do!


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## Apercrumbie (27 November 2017)

criso said:



			Did anybody watch the video?

I did and while you can't see the attack clearly the sobs of the walker are horrible to hear.

But what you do see is the owner of the dogs in there trying to physically drag first one dog and then the other off and not being able to.  He then walks away.  

Not justifying anything but just wanted to clarify for those asking about him walking away.
		
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Yes, I thankfully watched it with the volume off so couldn't hear what was going on. I saw him walking off as someone who just had no idea what to do in a horrifying situation. However I really doubt that was the first time those dogs had shown dog aggression - the moron should have kept them muzzled in public, at least on leads.


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## SpringArising (27 November 2017)

cobgoblin said:



			Dear God!... How disgusting... And to think that guy says the dogs are gentle with his 3yr old daughter, until they're not.
		
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bonny said:



			Truely horrific, these dogs just have no place in people's homes, just have to hope they have been destroyed already and maybe someone, somewhere will think again about what they consider to have as a pet. To think that they lived with small children.
		
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Why do you assume that the dogs aren't good with people because they attacked another _dog_?


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## MotherOfChickens (27 November 2017)

SpringArising said:



			Why do you assume that the dogs aren't good with people because they attacked another _dog_?
		
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It might not be wholly rational but I'd not want very small children-given to jerky movements, squeaking and running around strong, powerful dogs with a high prey drive.


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## CorvusCorax (27 November 2017)

We all think we'd know what we would do when it happens but when it actually happens it's a different story.
Having said that, 'dragging' an attacking/already attached dog will cause further tearing/stretching to the victim 

The dogs had no collars and leads and he was holding the leads in his hand by the looks of it.


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## SpringArising (27 November 2017)

cobgoblin said:



			Dear God!... How disgusting... And to think that guy says the dogs are gentle with his 3yr old daughter, until they're not.
		
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MotherOfChickens said:



			It might not be wholly rational but I'd not want very small children-given to jerky movements, squeaking and running around strong, powerful dogs with a high prey drive.
		
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Their drive is towards fighting other dogs, not humans - that's not what they were originally bred for and therefore they have no desire to do so (quite the opposite, in fact).

Statistically, you have more of a chance of being bitten by a Labrador than any other breed of dog.


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## MotherOfChickens (27 November 2017)

SpringArising said:



			Their drive is towards fighting other dogs, not humans - that's not what they were originally bred for and therefore they have no desire to do so (quite the opposite, in fact).

Statistically, you have more of a chance of being bitten by a Labrador than any other breed of dog.
		
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yes, I realise that-hence the 'not wholly rational' phrase.

but eta statistically there are just more labradors. I worked as a VN for years, I saw all kinds of different breeds PTS due to dog-dog and dog-human aggression. I still do not see any reason for the likes of the dogs in the report to be kept as pets and I would rather be bitten by a lab, than whatever that thing is in the video. I would still not have very small children using that (or any tbh) dog as a pillow or as a play pal.


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## GirlFriday (27 November 2017)

SA - that is partly to do with the prevalance of labs - as far as I know there aren't actually any stats that take into account the number of dog/human interactions without bites.

CC - agree. First time my dog was seriously attacked (by a very posh off-lead ridgeback) I just yelled at it and waited for the owner to intervene (not fast enough, espec as it turns out it has history - most dogs in the area have scars from it it seems and it cost me hundreds in stitches!). The second time it was two bull types from the other end of the social spectrum and I improvised with an (open) umbrella (fortunately no vet treatment required by luck of the one that had him picked up in jaws only eating his harness!).

In both instances my dog was on a lead (to start with anyway) and I consciously avoided pulling back.

I've since read that the most effective things to do (if you want to - I've never tried either and am not recommending at all) are booting the attaching dog in the ribs hard enough to break the ribs or jabbing something long into the mouth and levering it open. I'm not sure what I'd do if it happened again tbh...

ETA: I wouldn't let any child out of arms reach when around potentially badly trained/anyway clearly out of control carnivores bigger than the child (or frankly any bull breed at all). Especially if the child is with another dog.


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## Dano1223 (27 November 2017)

Those dogs are nothing more than a penis extension. Seems so easy to claim these dogs aren't a banned breed by saying they're cross's - should be made to prove it. Ok - you're saying it's a cross, we think its not, prove us wrong. 

I'd have a lot more dogs on the band list personally.


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## SpringArising (27 November 2017)

Dano1223 said:



			Those dogs are nothing more than a penis extension. Seems so easy to claim these dogs aren't a banned breed by saying they're cross's - should be made to prove it. Ok - you're saying it's a cross, we think its not, prove us wrong. 

I'd have a lot more dogs on the band list personally.
		
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I hate ignorant comments like yours - I have Staffies and I'm a woman; last time I checked in with myself, I didn't want a penis.


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## Apercrumbie (27 November 2017)

SpringArising said:



			I hate ignorant comments like yours - I have Staffies and I'm a woman; last time I checked in with myself, I didn't want a penis.
		
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Neither dog involved is a staffie. One is a ridgeback cross, the other is a Bully Kutta. I made a slightly similar comment above - I am aware how lovely staffies are, particularly with their families, but I stand by my concerns about the amount of damage that breeds of dog bred to fight can do in comparison to most other breeds.


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## Dano1223 (27 November 2017)

Who mentioned staffies? a Bully Kutta is a dog bred purely for fighting and shouldn't be available to general public


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## Dano1223 (27 November 2017)

and the penis thing was tongue and cheek, wan't meant to cause offence


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## Alec Swan (27 November 2017)

I thought that we had a Dangerous Dogs Act.  Oh &#8230;. it seems that we have.

Considering that the guy appearing to walk away without a care in the world,  was carrying two leads,  we can only imagine that he was the one in charge of or supposedly had control of the aggressors.  I didn't watch the entire film or read the remainder of the article,  but have the dogs been put down and has the owner been charged,  does anyone know?

Alec.


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## Wagtail (27 November 2017)

SpringArising said:



			Why do you assume that the dogs aren't good with people because they attacked another _dog_?
		
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It shows the dogs are totally out of control, and no child should share a space with any dog that would do this. I wouldn't leave a child unsupervised with any medium or large dog if they are under the age of 12. Or any baby or toddler with any sized dog.

eta: I have four dogs. Two are a giant breed and I even have it written into my livery contracts that no children should be allowed to interact with the dogs, even though they have never attacked a person and love people, but they are not great with other dogs (though never attacked one) and so they are never walked off the leash.


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## Moobli (27 November 2017)

I think it is possible to disagree with BSL while still acknowledging that some breeds should NOT be pets.  Neither of the dogs that participated in the killing of the Beagle are on the banned list.  Having said that, the so-called "Bully Kutta" looks remarkably like a Dogo Argentino and the Rhodesian Ridgeback x Staffie looks like a Pit Bull type, both of which ARE on the banned list.  Hmmmm ....


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## CorvusCorax (27 November 2017)

Dano1223 said:



			Those dogs are nothing more than a penis extension. Seems so easy to claim these dogs aren't a banned breed by saying they're cross's - should be made to prove it. Ok - you're saying it's a cross, we think its not, prove us wrong. 

I'd have a lot more dogs on the band list personally.
		
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That's exactly how the BSL element of the DDA works.
The owner has to prove what it isn't, not what it is.
And because there's no insistance that actual breed registries keep DNA on file, then it's very hard to prove.

If it looks and acts like a banned breed 'type' including measurements, as ruled by an assessor, then it is one, in the eyes of the law.

None of the breeds on the banned list in the UK are recognised by the Kennel Club (which isn't a classic registry as it doesn't hold DNA as a matter of course) and the English KC isn't in the FCI, which dictates most breed standards, although they may have a memorandum of understanding or a working agreement or something. No, me neither.


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## Moobli (27 November 2017)

CorvusCorax said:



			That's exactly how the BSL element of the DDA works.
The owner has to prove what it isn't, not what it is.
And because there's no insistance that actual breed registries keep DNA on file, then it's very hard to prove.

If it looks and acts like a banned breed, including measurements, then it is one.
None of the breeds on the banned list in the UK are recognised by the Kennel Club (which isn't a classic registry as it doesn't hold DNA as a matter of course) and the English KC isn't in the FCI, although they may have a memorandum of understanding or a working agreement or something. No, me neither.
		
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And sadly a large majority of dogs seized are destroyed (whether of good temperament or not) because their owners won't go to court to try to keep them.


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## Equi (27 November 2017)

As the owner of a staffy i do think all these types need to be kept on a lead. Not banned, as that has not worked in any manner it just makes them more desirable and more very vad crosses being made. Have worked with many and obv as i said own one, and while many are very easy and loveable they 90% have dog issues. Its literally how they were bred. Its a lot of the time owner too, but i never got my dog as a penis extension namely because i havent got a penis, but also i don't live anywhere near an estate...i got one because i wanted a rottweiler and wasn't allowed one so looked around for a smaller dog that was still not the fluffy little yapping type. Shes never been into other dogs, and any other dogs take a while introducing to her...its never instant and she will only accept certain personalities. If a bouncy fluffy type ran up to her, not gonna lie shed rip it to sheds (or at least she would have in her older days, now shes got no teeth and is too old to worry about that kind of thing) and none of this was down to me training her to do it, i very much tried to train it out of her. But she was and never would be trusted. I read on the internet once that her sister was the exact same, despite both mum and dad being KC reg "good examples" its just how it goes.  Just like how so many collies and crosses have chasing problems. Its how they were bred.  I will say though that most bull breeds were bred to be good with people, but a lot of the crosses people use were not. When you cross a guarding breed with a fighting breed you can get a monster. 

I feel very sorry for the beagle, but i also feel sorry for the other dogs. I think some bull owners want so hard to prove their dogs are nice people they forget that they are so volatile by nature. For example i would not walk to walk a beagle through a field of rabbits, but a bull probably wouldnt even look at them.You can't ignore history when you have a dog, no matter how good you train them.


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## SpringArising (27 November 2017)

apercrumbie said:



			Neither dog involved is a staffie. One is a ridgeback cross, the other is a Bully Kutta. I made a slightly similar comment above - I am aware how lovely staffies are, particularly with their families, but I stand by my concerns about the amount of damage that breeds of dog bred to fight can do in comparison to most other breeds.
		
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Its a Ridgeback X Staffie.

And yes, I dont disagree with that. They are powerful little ******$ but what I do hate seeing is when people say It attacked another dog therefore it must be dangerous towards humans and should be put on the Dangerous Dogs Act list!


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## Spiritedly (27 November 2017)

GirlFriday said:



			I've since read that the most effective things to do (if you want to - I've never tried either and am not recommending at all) are booting the attaching dog in the ribs hard enough to break the ribs or jabbing something long into the mouth and levering it open. I'm not sure what I'd do if it happened again tbh...
.
		
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A few years ago I had three dogs attack mine whilst I was seeing to my horse, it was on an army base and the dogs belonged to a security guard....privately owned not security trained dogs....some squaddies heard me shouting and came out of the barrack block opposite and about 4 of them then booted the attacking dogs in the sides which made them release mine and she shot into the barracks for cover. On my own I would never have been able to get all three to release her but the booting method did work.


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## Alec Swan (27 November 2017)

WorkingGSD said:



			And sadly a large majority of dogs seized are destroyed (whether of good temperament or not) because their owners won't go to court to try to keep them.
		
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Now I KNOW it isn't the fault of the dog,  but that can't be taken in to mitigation.  Were more of these dogs confiscated and put down,  then the breeders would find a dwindling market and so would curtail their activities,  a little.  The lad who rides about in a car with no tax or insurance will have it confiscated and crushed &#8212; destroyed and those with dangerous dogs should (must) face the same result.

As equi says below,  the mixing of breeds which have a capacity (attitude and ability) even if it's only apparent in one side of the mating,  are all so often owned by those who we wouldn't trust with a poodle.



equi said:



			&#8230;&#8230;.. . When you cross a guarding breed with a fighting breed you can get a monster. 

I feel very sorry for the beagle, but i also feel sorry for the other dogs. I think some bull owners want so hard to prove their dogs are nice people they forget that they are so volatile by nature. For example i would not walk to walk a beagle through a field of rabbits, but a bull probably wouldnt even look at them.You can't ignore history when you have a dog, no matter how good you train them.
		
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With the cross-breeding of the dogs under discussion,  they have only one intended use.

Alec.


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## Alec Swan (27 November 2017)

GirlFriday said:



			&#8230;&#8230;..

I've since read that the most effective things to do (if you want to - I've never tried either and am not recommending at all) are booting the attaching dog in the ribs hard enough to break the ribs or jabbing something long into the mouth and levering it open. I'm not sure what I'd do if it happened again tbh...

&#8230;&#8230;.. .
		
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Booting dogs which are having a scrap generally works,  but when dogs such as those which are under discussion are in a state of frenzy,  then short of a gun which no one would have with them,  the best answer is to turn away and let them finish what they've started.  Pain simply doesn't work when terriers of any size are focused on one thing,  indeed it simply drives them further forward.

Alec.


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## Moobli (27 November 2017)

Alec Swan said:



			Now I KNOW it isn't the fault of the dog,  but that can't be taken in to mitigation.  Were more of these dogs confiscated and put down,  then the breeders would find a dwindling market and so would curtail their activities,  a little.  The lad who rides about in a car with no tax or insurance will have it confiscated and crushed &#8212; destroyed and those with dangerous dogs should (must) face the same result.
		
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Oh how I wish that were the case. Unfortunately they just go out and buy a new dog and the cycle repeats itself.


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## Alec Swan (27 November 2017)

W_GSD,  I don't have an answer to the problem.

Alec.


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## Equi (27 November 2017)

With this particular case being a staff/ridgeback - you have a hunting dog crossed with a fighting dog. That was only ever going to go one way eventually. The other is a fighting/guard breed, so will attack and fiercely defend what it sees as its own property. I think the owner was naive...i don't think they were a horrible person or only having these dogs to have a big rep. As for him walking away when the dogs attacked...one training method to get your dog to follow IS to walk away..but its not going to work in this instance..again naivety of the owner. 

For future ref, with these lock jaw types, one of the best ways to get them off is to grab their two hind legs and lift them up, pull their tails or stick something up their anus if you need to. You're not going to come off well if you get in front of that dog and they generally don't respond to any side or front stimulus. This is how they got pulled off by their owners in a fight, soo...


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## criso (27 November 2017)

equi said:



			one of the best ways to get them off is to grab their two hind legs and lift them up
		
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I think that's what it looked like the owner was trying to do in the video - don't want to watch it again to check.


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## Equi (27 November 2017)

criso said:



			I think that's what it looked like the owner was trying to do in the video - don't want to watch it again to check.
		
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Its one of those things you have to commit to, much like strangling them. Theyre very large heavy breeds, not many people can hold that amount of muscle thats fighting back. Some experts recommend putting leads around the legs/wasit as you then have leverage strength and can pull them away as soon as they have any "give" in the jaw. The most important part is not letting the other dog/whatever be held as it will then only rip..they have to let go first and have no opposing force.


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## cremedemonthe (1 December 2017)

Spiritedly said:



			A few years ago I had three dogs attack mine whilst I was seeing to my horse, it was on an army base and the dogs belonged to a security guard....privately owned not security trained dogs....some squaddies heard me shouting and came out of the barrack block opposite and about 4 of them then booted the attacking dogs in the sides which made them release mine and she shot into the barracks for cover. On my own I would never have been able to get all three to release her but the booting method did work.
		
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I have booted more dogs attacking my 3 dogs than I can remember, works every time, big or small they get the boot, no excuses, no waiting for owners, simplu had enough of out of control aggressive dogs and their pathetic excuses for owners. Was surrounded in a dark barn on my own by 3 Mastiffs once, all growling and got bitten in the back of my leg, unfortunatley for them I retailed, they sure as hell didnt do it again. I have been attacked by quite a few large and small dogs, seen them all off and always will defend myself and my dogs with what ever is to hand.


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## Luci07 (1 December 2017)

maisie06 said:



			For those already in the country, compulsory neutering, muzzled and on lead in public, and compulsory public liability insurance for a start. I would like to see dog licencing back too - plus a face to face interview for anyone wanting to own bull breeds to see that they were wanting them for purposes other than a status symbol.
No bull breeds allowed in social housing either.
.
		
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What compete and utter rubbish.  "No bull breeds allowed in social housing either AND the ridiculous assumption that anyone wanting a bull breed needs an interview. Thank you for putting back the cause of bull breeds, which organisations such as Battersea have been fighting to advance. Thank you for waving your poorly researched opinions and thank you for advancing the prejudice we face. 

And I would like to actually give an ACCURATE outline of what the DDA is and why it fails. Unlike a large number of posters, I investigated this so I could understand it. The Pit bull is on the banned list. Except that doesn't work because "Pit bull" is a type not a breed. This is purely based on measurements and dogs with absolutely no history of any agression, ever, can be seized and if the  owners are coerced into signing over their dogs, destroyed by the police. Please tell me now a law like that makes sense. Police have destroyed some puppies in a litter "because they were or type" yet allowed others to live. If you have a dog you suspect could fall foul (so a lab or boxer X stafford could easily fall into these measurements), you take a gamble and go to court and "hope" you can get your dog exempted - which means muzzling in public, insurance. If you fail, your dog will be destroyed. You can't be pre emptive.

I am not going to watch this video, I have no desire to see a dog dying and I agree that the owner has everything coming to him. The owner, not the dogs. The dogs will no doubt be destroyed and all 3 deaths could have been avoided.  But please don't make a horrendous situation even worse.


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## Clodagh (1 December 2017)

Luci07. Amazing how many more lab X boxers and other bull type yet not cross breeds are out there. The police have to try to do something. If you own a banned breed type and it does not misbehave you would be deeply unfortunate to be targeted.


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## SpringArising (1 December 2017)

maisie06 said:



			Our powers that be need to grow a pair and ban these dogs. 

For those already in the country, compulsory neutering, muzzled and on lead in public, and compulsory public liability insurance for a start. I would like to see dog licencing back too - plus a face to face interview for anyone wanting to own bull breeds to see that they were wanting them for purposes other than a status symbol.
No bull breeds allowed in social housing either
		
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Oh FGS, get real.


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## Alec Swan (1 December 2017)

Luci07 said:



			&#8230;&#8230;.. .  "No bull breeds allowed in social housing either AND the ridiculous assumption that anyone wanting a bull breed needs an interview. Thank you for putting back the cause of bull breeds, which organisations such as Battersea have been fighting to advance. Thank you for waving your poorly researched opinions and thank you for advancing the prejudice we face. 

And I would like to actually give an ACCURATE outline of what the DDA is and why it fails. Unlike a large number of posters, I investigated this so I could understand it. The Pit bull is on the banned list. Except that doesn't work because "Pit bull" is a type not a breed. This is purely based on measurements and dogs with absolutely no history of any agression, ever, can be seized and if the  owners are coerced into signing over their dogs, destroyed by the police. Please tell me now a law like that makes sense. Police have destroyed some puppies in a litter "because they were or type" yet allowed others to live. If you have a dog you suspect could fall foul (so a lab or boxer X stafford could easily fall into these measurements), you take a gamble and go to court and "hope" you can get your dog exempted - which means muzzling in public, insurance. If you fail, your dog will be destroyed. You can't be pre emptive.

I am not going to watch this video, I have no desire to see a dog dying and I agree that the owner has everything coming to him. The owner, not the dogs. The dogs will no doubt be destroyed and all 3 deaths could have been avoided.  But please don't make a horrendous situation even worse.
		
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As you appear to see the inadequacies of the DDA,  and that it clearly doesn't address the problem with,  what you would see as justice,  were you to be placed in charge of the legislation which would cover dangerous dogs and were you able to disband the existing Law and establish a fresh set of regulations,  how would you organise it?

Alec.


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## Alec Swan (1 December 2017)

^^^^ As everyone's being fairly quiet perhaps we should throw the question to all and anyone and I'd be genuinely interested in the collective thoughts of HHO.  Do we continue as we are,  witnessing hideous attacks,  and sometimes on humans,  and only reacting to the individual cases and thereby neutering the DDA?

If doing nothing isn't an option,  just how do we separate the breeds,  the cross-breeds and their owners,  from those who keep well balanced and sane Staffs?

Alec.


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## Equi (1 December 2017)

The problem is Alec that you only see the staffs and crosses in the news. Many other dog breeds attack and kill other dogs and animals but you just dont hear about it.


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## Fellewell (1 December 2017)

From what I've read, the catalyst here was a ball. The beagle should never have been allowed to get into a position where he could challenge two large dogs for a possession, that was never going to end well. Having said that, taking a ball to a park teeming with dogs was risky and the interaction was obviously lazy. When the ball was thrown it should have been retrieved, presented to the owner and remained mostly in his possession. Leaving it on the ground was irresponsible and inviting a free for all.
All those dogs were let down by people who should have been able to assess the situation and protect their dogs.


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## Cinnamontoast (1 December 2017)

No bull breeds in social housing?! Wtaf?? Cos only chavvy council tenants have bull breeds? Come on, that's silly. Potential owners should have interviews? Gestapo  state.


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## CorvusCorax (1 December 2017)

What has this got to do with Staffs. They are not banned

GSDs, Rotts, Dobes, Rhodesian Ridgebacks and several other breeds, the names of which escape me, are banned from social housing and must he kept muzzled and on a 1m line in public, in the Republic of Ireland.

Some way towards helping would be a licensing and streaming system for dog ownership and huge controls on breeding. Including real registries where DNA is taken and stored.
It happens in almost all countries in Europe and many US states. Breed clubs are strong advocates for responsible breeding and if you don't comply, the puppies are pretty much impossible to sell. There's no incentive for breeding dogs with poor health and character.


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## {97702} (1 December 2017)

Having worked for a couple of social housing providers, generally they dont allow any dogs at all?

I was interested to read that this attack was possibly due to the dogs arguing over a ball. My immediate thoughts when I first read the article were that the dog walker could not possibly have proper control over 5 dogs in such a popular area unless they were all in a lead (unless she was a very good trainer as well), and that this was an excellent/appalling example of why I dont ever walk my dogs in popular areas  

How we stop this sort of thing happening is difficult to say the least, it is not the fault of the dog but of the owner and you seemingly cannot legislate for stupidity


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## CorvusCorax (2 December 2017)

Max of two round here, no breed restrictions. Although of course it depends on provider.


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## Luci07 (3 December 2017)

Interesting question Alec. How would I improve the DDA without rendering it weak? Firstly...it IS weak. It is an abhorrent ill thought and lazily created law. It offers absolutely no protection either. I would go after back street breeders in the first instance. Tax those who breed cheaply for a quick profit. There is a world of difference between a breeder who researchs and tries to breed healthy animals and the grasping lowlifes who don't give a toss. Bring back dog licensing, but keep the cost low and the fines high. Compulsory dog training as part of the ownership process. Ban selling animals on places like gum tree and Facebook. All dogs to be chipped and high fines on irresponsible owners whose animals attack others. These would help dissuade people.  Fully appreciate that some of this is wishful thinking but we need to make a start where people see having a dog as their right and not a priveledge with responsibilities.  I also agree that a lot of people say Staffie X to avoid having their dog labelled as a pit bull. Incredibly unhelpful for those trying to restore the good name of a proper Staffordshire Bull Terrier.

Other point I would like someone on here to confirm or deny. I have read that the beagle was off lead and the owner had been warned to retrieve it. Is this the case? And were those dogs on a lead? Not excusing the outcome but wondered if this was the case.


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## TheresaW (3 December 2017)

I read somewhere on FB that the 2 that attacked were on leads, and the beagle wasnt. In the video, the 2 attacking were clearly not on leads. How likely is it that they both slipped them?


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## Alec Swan (3 December 2017)

Luci07 said:



			Interesting question Alec. How would I improve the DDA without rendering it weak? &#8230;&#8230;.. . Bring back dog licensing, but keep the cost low and the fines high. Compulsory dog training as part of the ownership process. Ban selling animals on places like gum tree and Facebook. All dogs to be chipped and high fines on irresponsible owners whose animals attack others. These would help dissuade people.  Fully appreciate that some of this is wishful thinking but we need to make a start where people see having a dog as their right and not a priveledge with responsibilities.  I also agree that a lot of people say Staffie X to avoid having their dog labelled as a pit bull. Incredibly unhelpful for those trying to restore the good name of a proper Staffordshire Bull Terrier.

&#8230;&#8230;.. .
		
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With the greatest respect,  none of your suggestions above,  however seemingly sensible,  could be enforced.  We also have to remember that there has to be a certain degree of 'will' in Government &#8212; and there isn't.

There are certain breeds of dogs which pose huge risks and they're all so often owned by those who are the least qualified,  perhaps it's a case of closing the stable door behind the bolting horse,  but perhaps those breeds which are known to be at high risk should have any further import permits (is a permit of any sort needed?) should be banned.

Then we have those breeds which have sadly been swept up in all this,  and I'm considering Staffordshire Bull Terriers.  I've had little if anything to do with Staffs,  but every one that I've met has been quite charming and percentage wise,  they'd be in the lead where many other breeds are concerned.  The problem is that that's where the positives end &#8230;&#8230;.. Staffs are often used as part of the breeding programme (programme?  ) of those who produce the type of dogs which contribute nothing of worth to our canine world,  apart from bigging-up the self esteem of those who would otherwise have none.

If we consider the chemicals of Hydrogen Peroxide and Liquid Paraffin,  are we all aware that their purchase,  except under controlled conditions,  is now illegal because both can be used to make bombs?  Will the day ever arrive when those dogs with a considered propensity and importantly,  a mind set and an ability to cause major harm will only be bred under licence with all the progeny being neutered? 

I wonder how much a neutered Pit-bull or an Akita or any other of these breeds would be worth&#8230;&#8230;..

Alec.


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## GirlFriday (3 December 2017)

TheresaW said:



			How likely is it that they both slipped them?
		
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I've once had a velcro-on type harness with grab handle come off in my hand whilst trying to pull a dog off my dog (I live in a very dog-dense area, but when I think about it he has been attacked rather too many times over the last year or so!)

I've also had my own dog wriggle out of his (clip-on and no grab handle) when another dog picked him up and started shaking him. I have mixed feelings about how 'good' I want his harness now... his road sense is non-existent (and he is old, so taking a while to re-train on that) so I need it to work most of the time. But equally, it not being perfect possibly saved his life...

So, I'd say possible if they were both already hyped up when held... but they are not the kind of animal that ought to be on anything but the sturdiest of leads.


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## GirlFriday (3 December 2017)

Alec Swan said:



			With the greatest respect,  none of your suggestions above,  however seemingly sensible,  could be enforced.
		
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But dog licenses used to be enforced, no? I'm too young to remember but I think they existed in the past? Of course there will have been those breaking the rules... but it would certainly be something that those not actively seeking to break the law would comply with?

I'd forget breed-specific rules and go with something simpler like weight... or just say all dogs (over a certain weight) to be muzzled in public?

Obvious issues would be with playing fetch and working dogs. So, registered handlers exempt and fenced dog-areas in parks exempt? I know some seemingly happy greyhounds which are always muzzled out...


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## MurphysMinder (3 December 2017)

Dog licenses in the past weren't enforced.    Responsible owners had them but those who let their dogs stray didn't bother,  and I don't recall many people being punished in anyway for not having a license.

The thing is,  had the DDA worked and been enforced properly we wouldnt be seeing any pitbull types today as they were all supposed to be neutered.   That certainly hasn't happened has it.


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## Clodagh (3 December 2017)

In Australia, as I have said ad nauseum, the dog license was rigorously enforced. I assume it paid for itself. Your license was cheap if neatered, expensive if not. (I think, back in the day, about $5 for a neutered dog, $45 for an entire animal). Your dog had a coloured tag, relevant to the year, that it had to wear on it's collar. If you were out walking it and no tag it could be seized, you then had 7 days to sort it out or it was destroyed. How hard can it be? Of course nowadays we would all be against healthy dogs being PTS.


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## Luci07 (3 December 2017)

MurphysMinder said:



			Dog licenses in the past weren't enforced.    Responsible owners had them but those who let their dogs stray didn't bother,  and I don't recall many people being punished in anyway for not having a license.

The thing is,  had the DDA worked and been enforced properly we wouldnt be seeing any pitbull types today as they were all supposed to be neutered.   That certainly hasn't happened has it.
		
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Misinformation and an incorrect interpretation of this act. Pitbulls are a banned "breed". They cannot be imported, they are an illegal "type". Therefore this law is based purely on measurements. We had the ridiculous incident whereby a rescued Stafford X was taken by the police, retrained as a sniffer dog, was then destroyed when someone suddenly decided it was of "type".  I did also say that some of my suggestions would be wishful thinking as the government will never give this the focus it deserves, but they were thoughts to be put out there. People vote with their pockets so at least whack up the fines to make idiots think twice. But hey, that irresponsible driver mowed into 2 horses in Normandy last Sunday, despite the horses wearing hi viz and in single file. Said woman has been widely reported to have been asked to slow down. As we know, the horses were out down and this woman will get a maximum of £250 and 6 points. Like that will make people think again.


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## GirlFriday (4 December 2017)

MurphysMinder said:



			Dog licenses in the past weren't enforced.    Responsible owners had them but those who let their dogs stray didn't bother,  and I don't recall many people being punished in anyway for not having a license.
		
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Oh, interesting thought: why is that that people don't let their dogs out by themselves any more? I remember it being quite common when I was a child and yet I can't actually recall seeing it done deliberately for the last 15 or so years? Is that just a cultural shift? Strays now will of course more frequently have microchips which would make enforcing rules on that easier I guess... But I think the straying reduced before that anyway?

Microchips would make licensing enforcement easier... And, as dogs legally have to have a contact tag anyway, it would be quite simple to include owner details along with the license tag which would be handy for a variety of scenarios...


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## KrujaaLass (4 December 2017)

Possibly because there is so much traffic. People pay loads of of money for their dogs nowadays. In the past dogs were mongrols which cost just a few pounds


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## Clodagh (4 December 2017)

There is no place in society for these types of dogs. The humble staff has been totally overtaken in the numpty owner stakes (I hope). As Alec says every staff I have ever met has been a delight, except a bit dog reactive, but they don't have the power of these imports.


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## MurphysMinder (4 December 2017)

Luci07 said:



			Misinformation and an incorrect interpretation of this act. Pitbulls are a banned "breed". They cannot be imported, they are an illegal "type". Therefore this law is based purely on measurements. We had the ridiculous incident whereby a rescued Stafford X was taken by the police, retrained as a sniffer dog, was then destroyed when someone suddenly decided it was of "type".  I did also say that some of my suggestions would be wishful thinking as the government will never give this the focus it deserves, but they were thoughts to be put out there. People vote with their pockets so at least whack up the fines to make idiots think twice. But hey, that irresponsible driver mowed into 2 horses in Normandy last Sunday, despite the horses wearing hi viz and in single file. Said woman has been widely reported to have been asked to slow down. As we know, the horses were out down and this woman will get a maximum of £250 and 6 points. Like that will make people think again.
		
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I'm not sure if you are saying that I am misinterpreting the act , but it clearly said that no dog "of the type known as pit bull terrier" could be bred from, nor sold or given away .   
It was an ill conceived act and has certainly not worked,  if would be far better using the microchipping law to make sure owners of all breeds/types were responsible but there is little chance of that happening.


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## ester (4 December 2017)

What else are you going to base it on if not measurements? We don't have DNA on these lines to be comparing?


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## eatmyshorts (5 December 2017)

ester said:



			What else are you going to base it on if not measurements? We don't have DNA on these lines to be comparing?
		
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I'd suggest what it should be based on ... behavior.


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## cremedemonthe (6 December 2017)

eatmyshorts said:



			I'd suggest what it should be based on ... behavior.
		
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Exactly, DEED not BREED as they say. Don't tar them all with the same brush. I have a staffie x lab, looks evil but is the biggest wuss going, yet my JRT is like jaws!


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## GirlFriday (6 December 2017)

There are plenty of people keeping lions as glorified pets (in the US). Only a few kill their owners each year. But I would argue that lions are not suitable pets for most people to keep. Surely you can't just say only the lions which have already killed an owner are unsuitable?


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## ester (6 December 2017)

So get every dog behaviour tested regardless of breed? How often do you do that test as obviously behaviour can change quite a lot, quite quickly.


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## Alec Swan (6 December 2017)

cremedemonthe said:



			Exactly, DEED not BREED as they say. Don't tar them all with the same brush. &#8230;&#8230;..
		
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I'm really sorry Oz,  but though you and I see eye to eye on most things,  ^^^^ this I cannot agree with.  When we consider dogs which because of their breeding and so their former use,  do we allow every one of the the freedom that &#8212; ** Every dog's allowed one bite**?  So the dangerous-unmanagable-owned by clowns as status symbols - are allowed to be kept and bred with until they reinforce their rational in life?  Honestly?  



GirlFriday said:



			There are plenty of people keeping lions as glorified pets (in the US). Only a few kill their owners each year. But I would argue that lions are not suitable pets for most people to keep. Surely you can't just say only the lions which have already killed an owner are unsuitable?
		
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We can keep lions here too,  providing that we apply to our local council for a licence.  The application and the terms and conditions are such that very few bother,  and as you seem to suggest,  do we decide upon which are safe to be kept by the simple selection process whereby only those which have yet to kill someone are considered safe?  Make no mistake,  there are those breeds of dog in this country,  often kept in multiples,  and some have killed humans,  and there are plenty of others which are bombs ticking quietly away.

Alec.


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## cobgoblin (6 December 2017)

Another attack...

http://metro.co.uk/2017/12/05/woman-dragged-ground-mauled-pair-staffordshire-bull-terriers-7133978/


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## SpringArising (6 December 2017)

cobgoblin said:



			Another attack...

http://metro.co.uk/2017/12/05/woman-dragged-ground-mauled-pair-staffordshire-bull-terriers-7133978/

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I'm sick of reading stupid quotes like this:

"If that had been a child or a baby, it would have killed them. There are children that play on that street every single night."

Well, no, if that had been a child or baby, it wouldn't have killed them. Because the dog didn't attack the HUMAN, it attacked the DOG. The human just so happened to get in the middle of the attack. 

Seriously are some people just super dense and don't understand the difference between a human and a dog?


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## cobgoblin (6 December 2017)

SpringArising said:



			I'm sick of reading stupid quotes like this:

"If that had been a child or a baby, it would have killed them. There are children that play on that street every single night."

Well, no, if that had been a child or baby, it wouldn't have killed them. Because the dog didn't attack the HUMAN, it attacked the DOG. The human just so happened to get in the middle of the attack. 

Seriously are some people just super dense and don't understand the difference between a human and a dog?[/QUOTE



Well most people won't just stand and watch their beloved pet be killed, will they?
		
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## LuckyLoki (6 December 2017)

SpringArising said:



			I'm sick of reading stupid quotes like this:

"If that had been a child or a baby, it would have killed them. There are children that play on that street every single night."

Well, no, if that had been a child or baby, it wouldn't have killed them. Because the dog didn't attack the HUMAN, it attacked the DOG. The human just so happened to get in the middle of the attack. 

Seriously are some people just super dense and don't understand the difference between a human and a dog?
		
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The dogs attacked a dog that was being walked by a human. Due to the typical human dog relationship, most dogs that are attacked by other dogs will have a human in close proximity, often attached to the dog by a short leash.

In this case the attacking dogs showed no bite inhibitions towards humans once they were in attack mode. She might not have been their original target, but it simply didnt save her either. So yes, if that woman had been accompanied by a child it could have been a much greater disaster.

Most breeds in a dog fight will back off in confusion if they accidentally bite a human. Obviously these are too focused on their prey to do that. 

I've seen advice on what to do if a dog attacks the dog you're with and it seems to be , save yourself, let the dog die. I can't imagine how I could ever do that. So I understand exactly what that woman did. 

You say you are sick of stupid quotes like the above. I'm sick of people who think dog on dog aggression at that level is acceptable. I've lived with multiple dogs all my life. Domination scuffles that are all noise and hair are one thing. The need to kill is something else entirely. 

I am inclined towards thinking that dogs that were bred for aggression towards other animals need to be licenced and have restrictions on who can own. I understand they can be made into civilised citizens, but it takes a balanced human being to produce a balanced dog . And these dogs attract way too many of the unbalanced kind.


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## Alec Swan (6 December 2017)

SpringArising said:



			I'm sick of reading stupid quotes like this:

"If that had been a child or a baby, it would have killed them. There are children that play on that street every single night."

Well, no, if that had been a child or baby, it wouldn't have killed them. Because the dog didn't attack the HUMAN, it attacked the DOG. The human just so happened to get in the middle of the attack. 

Seriously are some people just super dense and don't understand the difference between a human and a dog?
		
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Mmmm,  not too sure about that.  I've had GSDs which were hard as nails against a man and soft as butter with another dog and obviously the other way about too, &#8230;.  HOWEVER these aren't GSDs,  these are dogs with a mindset like no other.  To suggest that a dog which wishes to kill another dog won't turn it's attentions to a small person is dangerously off line.  

It seems that those who went to the assistance of the dog walker,  when they attempted to intervene,  were also bitten and that speaks to me of two dogs,  SBTs according to the report,  which need to be destroyed,  post haste,  then if the report is correct and there is a third dog,  then the owner needs to have that other dog confiscated and put that down too and I'm being entirely serious.  Do I care about the third dog?  Not one bit.  I care that a message is sent out to the idiots who buy dogs without any thoughts as to their responsibilities.

Alec.


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## Alec Swan (6 December 2017)

LuckyLoki said:



			&#8230;&#8230;.. it takes a balanced human being to produce a balanced dog . &#8230;&#8230;.. .
		
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Your first post it seems,  spot on.

Alec.


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## CorvusCorax (6 December 2017)

A dog that goes out of its way, in that it covers a distance (especially an open space) and without any provocation, to attack another dog, is very unhappy/not right in the head IMO. It's not normal.

It also really isn't unusual for fighting dogs to redirect onto whatever other obstacle is placed in their way. Intervening adult, someone on the periphery included.


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## SpringArising (6 December 2017)

cobgoblin said:



			Well most people won't just stand and watch their beloved pet be killed, will they?
		
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LuckyLoki said:



			In this case the attacking dogs showed no bite inhibitions towards humans once they were in attack mode. She might not have been their original target, but it simply didnt save her either. So yes, if that woman had been accompanied by a child it could have been a much greater disaster.

Most breeds in a dog fight will back off in confusion if they accidentally bite a human.You say you are sick of stupid quotes like the above. I'm sick of people who think dog on dog aggression at that level is acceptable. I've lived with multiple dogs all my life. Domination scuffles that are all noise and hair are one thing. The need to kill is something else entirely.
		
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The person in the article said "If that [the Lab?] had been a child or a baby, it would have killed them. There are children that play on this street every single night" - that implies to me, that the man thinks the dogs are just as likely to run up to children and attack them. Which is ignorant and presumptuous. The dogs went for the Lab. NOT the human. The lady tried to break up the fight and got bitten in the process. Those are the facts. I think you'll find that anyone who tries to break up a dog fight has a damned good chance of getting bitten or caught in the middle of it, hence why the advice is generally, do not attempt to break up a dog fight unless you have a very good idea of what you're doing.

I've had four Staffies from pups to old age and a fifth who's a rescue, plus one EBT, so I'm pretty familiar with a Staffie's typical characteristics and know them very well. I'm not speculating on any of what I say.

I'll be the first to admit that generally, Staffies, usually the males, are absolute arse$ with others. I've written it on here before and I have no problem saying it - I'm not in denial! 

The reason I get irritated by comments like the above is because they always come from people who have never owned the breed and assume that because they attack dogs, they attack people. And that is SO damaging to the breed and really disheartening for responsible owners.  

I've had more Chihuahuas and Jack Russells and small fluffy things yap and growl at me (and my dogs) than I have ever had ANY Bull type dog do, ever. But you don't really hear about that because people enjoy Staffy/Pitbull/Bully propaganda more than anything else when it comes to dog attacks. Let's face it - 'Maltipoo attacks Labrador' is hardly a page-turner, is it?

No one thinks that this dog, or any, being attacked is acceptable - if I did my own dog would be let off every day and I'd take a punt, but he's not. He's on a lead at all times, I try to walk places which won't be filled with other dogs, and if I need to take him somewhere like my PIL's who have five dogs, he wears a muzzle too, just in case. If you put down every Staffy who attacked other dogs, there'd be very few of them left. I'd imagine there'd be a hell of a lot less dogs left in general if we were forced to put to sleep every dog, regardless of breed, who was dog-reactive. 



CorvusCorax said:



			A dog that goes out of its way, in that it covers a distance (especially an open space) and without any provocation, to attack another dog, is very unhappy/not right in the head IMO. It's not normal.
		
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They are bred to fight, as TBs are bred to run. Surely you understand why that is usually their first instinct, therefore, normal for them?


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## CorvusCorax (6 December 2017)

I've never had any problem with a Staff or EBT, ever, they've all been completely dog neutral even when passing on a narrow path.
Maybe the ones I see have that instinct bred out of them. I'm all for dogs having strong characteristics and to be true to their breed type, but there is no place for dogs displaying that  trait, in modern society. Sorry.


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## Clodagh (6 December 2017)

SpringArising said:



			The person in the article said "If that [the Lab?] had been a child or a baby, it would have killed them. There are children that play on this street every single night" - that implies to me, that the man thinks the dogs are just as likely to run up to children and attack them. Which is ignorant and presumptuous. The dogs went for the Lab. NOT the human. The lady tried to break up the fight and got bitten in the process. Those are the facts. I think you'll find that anyone who tries to break up a dog fight has a damned good chance of getting bitten or caught in the middle of it, hence why the advice is generally, do not attempt to break up a dog fight unless you have a very good idea of what you're doing.

I've had four Staffies from pups to old age and a fifth who's a rescue, plus one EBT, so I'm pretty familiar with a Staffie's typical characteristics and know them very well. I'm not speculating on any of what I say.

I'll be the first to admit that generally, Staffies, usually the males, are absolute arse$ with others. I've written it on here before and I have no problem saying it - I'm not in denial! 

The reason I get irritated by comments like the above is because they always come from people who have never owned the breed and assume that because they attack dogs, they attack people. And that is SO damaging to the breed and really disheartening for responsible owners.  

I've had more Chihuahuas and Jack Russells and small fluffy things yap and growl at me (and my dogs) than I have ever had ANY Bull type dog do, ever. But you don't really hear about that because people enjoy Staffy/Pitbull/Bully propaganda more than anything else when it comes to dog attacks. Let's face it - 'Maltipoo attacks Labrador' is hardly a page-turner, is it?

No one thinks that this dog, or any, being attacked is acceptable - if I did my own dog would be let off every day and I'd take a punt, but he's not. He's on a lead at all times, I try to walk places which won't be filled with other dogs, and if I need to take him somewhere like my PIL's who have five dogs, he wears a muzzle too, just in case. If you put down every Staffy who attacked other dogs, there'd be very few of them left. I'd imagine there'd be a hell of a lot less dogs left in general if we were forced to put to sleep every dog, regardless of breed, who was dog-reactive. 



They are bred to fight, as TBs are bred to run. Surely you understand why that is usually their first instinct, therefore, normal for them?
		
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I agree with CC that most dogs will undergo a level of discussion before they fight - at least to check out if the opposer is a dog or a bitch for instance.


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## SpringArising (6 December 2017)

Clodagh said:



			I agree with CC that most dogs will undergo a level of discussion before they fight - at least to check out if the opposer is a dog or a bitch for instance.
		
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That's my experience also. Our bitch is fine with other dogs and always has been, in fact she's scared of them and will run in the opposite direction and do all she can to avoid them, while our dogs have all been reactive to other dogs but OK with bitches and small dogs.


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## Fidgety (6 December 2017)

SpringArising said:



			The person in the article said "If that [the Lab?] had been a child or a baby, it would have killed them. There are children that play on this street every single night" - that implies to me, that the man thinks the dogs are just as likely to run up to children and attack them. Which is ignorant and presumptuous. 

<snip>

The reason I get irritated by comments like the above is because they always come from people who have never owned the breed and assume that because they attack dogs, they attack people. And that is SO damaging to the breed and really disheartening for responsible owners.
		
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Based on personal experience, dogs DO go up to children and attack them.  The one that attacked my daughter - who was simply sat on the floor playing with another dog in the family did just that and - with absolutely no warning.  A dog that was a cross of two dogs that apparently are known for their good and gentle characters, that are not bred to attack or herd and the owners to all intents and purposes were 'responsible'.  And when I read 'ignorant and presumptuous' comments like the above by people who have never experienced a dog that has attacked somebody without provocation themselves it _really _irritate sme.


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## SpringArising (6 December 2017)

Fidgety said:



			Based on personal experience, dogs DO go up to children and attack them.  The one that attacked my daughter - who was simply sat on the floor playing with another dog in the family did just that and - with absolutely no warning.  A dog that was a cross of two dogs that apparently are known for their good and gentle characters, that are not bred to attack or herd and the owners to all intents and purposes were 'responsible'.  And when I read 'ignorant and presumptuous' comments like the above by people who have never experienced a dog that has attacked somebody without provocation themselves it _really _irritate sme.
		
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Hold up, quote me at the part where I said dogs don't attack children or attack people unprovoked? I think you'll have a hard time. 

If you read back my post carefully, I said people think that because certain dogs were bred to fight and therefore attack dogs, think that they are _just as likely_ to attack humans, which is rubbish.


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## twiggy2 (6 December 2017)

In fact most fighting breeds are bred to be very human tolerant (as are lurchers and working terriers) this is because those that breed them for fighting have to stitch them back up themselves after fighting ( they cannot go to a vet after all) and this is often done without any sedation or pain relief.
The same for lurchers and working terriers any dog that shows human aggression is dumped or killed, I have experience of all these types of dogs when sick, ill or in terrible pain and they are all human tolerant.
For fighting dogs that have fought they are in survival mode during a fight, they will bite anything.
I have experience of pitballs forced to fight and those that have been removed before that happened and they are very different dogs.
No breed of dog fights for fun some are just bred to have fantastic tools in the event of a fight.
I agree with the poster who said a dog that goes out of its way to attack is not right in the head and in my experience that dog would have been forced to fight or survive at some point.
I also agree that it takes a stable person to produce a stable dog and somehow dog ownership/ training etc should be licensed.


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## CorvusCorax (6 December 2017)

It can also be a sign of massive insecurity Twiggy.
A dog that is so insecure that it feels the need to go out of its way to see off a 'perceived' danger. That was certainly the case in one of the dogs that has targeted mine. It's not a bull breed.
It went across a field, over a fence, through a gate and into a car park, where mine was minding his own business having a pee. The same dog has done this on multiple occasions, males and females.
It is constantly on the alert, gets distracted by anything that moves within a 200m radius and shows extreme stress around human beings (paw in the air, whale eye) but apparently he's just misunderstood.


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## Fidgety (6 December 2017)

SpringArising said:



			Hold up, quote me at the part where I said dogs don't attack children or attack people unprovoked? I think you'll have a hard time. 

If you read back my post carefully, I said people think that because certain dogs were bred to fight and therefore attack dogs, think that they are _just as likely_ to attack humans, which is rubbish.
		
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You said  ' "If that [the Lab?] had been a child or a baby, it would have killed them. There are children that play on this street every single night" - _that implies to me, that the man thinks the dogs are just as likely to run up to children and attack them. Which is ignorant and presumptuous.'_

I've italicised where you say that the commentator was ignorant and presumptuous for saying that dogs can attack humans (specifically, children playing on the street) unprovoked.


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## Fidgety (6 December 2017)

CorvusCorax said:



			It can also be a sign of massive insecurity Twiggy.
A dog that is so insecure that it feels the need to go out of its way to see off a 'perceived' danger. That was certainly the case in one of the dogs that has targeted mine. It's not a bull breed.
		
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That is my own interpretation of what caused the dog to attack my daughter that night.  It had had two other previous homes over a 12 month period and and only been in its current home for 3 months.  Visitors came and suddenly the heirarchy and dog's place in the herd was turned upside down.  My daughter sitting on the floor and playing with the oldest dog (of three) was an opportunity/trigger.


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## Alec Swan (6 December 2017)

SpringArising said:



			&#8230;&#8230;.. people think that because certain dogs were bred to fight and therefore attack dogs, think that they are _just as likely_ to attack humans, which is rubbish.
		
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The sad thing of course,  is that they do.  Any dog which is purpose bred,  and when denied it's usual prey WILL make use of whatever's available.

Alec.


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## cobgoblin (6 December 2017)

SpringArising said:



			Hold up, quote me at the part where I said dogs don't attack children or attack people unprovoked? I think you'll have a hard time. 

If you read back my post carefully, I said people think that because certain dogs were bred to fight and therefore attack dogs, think that they are _just as likely_ to attack humans, which is rubbish.
		
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The problem is that, where there is a dog, in a public situation, there should also be a human as well. Be that the owner, handler or walker.... and as most people are not such shites as to walk away and allow their pet to be ripped apart in front of their eyes, then any dog that attacks other dogs without provocation is also a danger to humans. 

Such behaviour cannot be excused by saying 'oh they just attack dogs'.... and to do so is frankly stupid.


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## twiggy2 (6 December 2017)

CorvusCorax said:



			It can also be a sign of massive insecurity Twiggy.
A dog that is so insecure that it feels the need to go out of its way to see off a 'perceived' danger. That was certainly the case in one of the dogs that has targeted mine. It's not a bull breed.
It went across a field, over a fence, through a gate and into a car park, where mine was minding his own business having a pee. The same dog has done this on multiple occasions, males and females.
It is constantly on the alert, gets distracted by anything that moves within a 200m radius and shows extreme stress around human beings (paw in the air, whale eye) but apparently he's just misunderstood.
		
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A bite to drive a perceived threat off I agree can be a sign of insecurity, I can only comment from first hand experience and for me I have never witnessed a nervous or insecure dog that keeps going till another dog is seriously injured or dead unless cornered, they want to drive the threat away not kill it.
It's terrible that dogs end up like that though.


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## SpringArising (6 December 2017)

Alec Swan said:



			The sad thing of course,  is that they do.  Any dog which is purpose bred,  and when denied it's usual prey WILL make use of whatever's available.

Alec.
		
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So can you tell me then, why out of the five I've owned, who have all had a pop at other dogs, not one of those, over their 12 year average, has ever showed ANY aggression towards ANY human, what so ever? Your statement is fallible.


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## CorvusCorax (6 December 2017)

Fair enough Twiggy. Luckily enough humans have always been on hand quickly to break things up (I was knocked over and my own dog was on an extending lead which was as much use as a chocolate fireguard...)


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