# Hound 'culling'



## Peter7917 (31 January 2016)

Does happened upon this webpage

http://www.powa.org.uk/id82.html

Does this actually happen? Seems rather farfetched ..


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## AdorableAlice (31 January 2016)

Sick, elderly or injured hounds will be pts.  They are not pets and will never settle as a pet.  The hunt has a duty of care to their hounds and yes pts is a duty of care task.


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## stormox (31 January 2016)

Most of the hounds in my local pack are  considered too old, or slow at 7-8. Very few are kept after that age.


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## Peter7917 (31 January 2016)

AdorableAlice said:



			Sick, elderly or injured hounds will be pts.  They are not pets and will never settle as a pet.  The hunt has a duty of care to their hounds and yes pts is a duty of care task.
		
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Yes I quite agree, however this article indicates they are shot?


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## angrybird1 (31 January 2016)

Has anyone ever seen a hound in a vets surgery??


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## Starzaan (31 January 2016)

angrybird1 said:



			Has anyone ever seen a hound in a vets surgery??
		
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When we used to puppy walk foxhounds for the Heythrop the hunstman used to come do do all their injections etc. I never saw a hound in the vets, but the vet did come out to them a few times.


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## gunnergundog (31 January 2016)

Peter7917 said:



			Yes I quite agree, however this article indicates they are shot?
		
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Yes, and......?  Just like some horses are injected and others are shot.....


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## The Fuzzy Furry (31 January 2016)

angrybird1 said:



			Has anyone ever seen a hound in a vets surgery??
		
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Don't often see a horse there either,  vets go out to them (hounds) as the norm


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## JanetGeorge (31 January 2016)

stormox said:



			Most of the hounds in my local pack are  considered too old, or slow at 7-8. Very few are kept after that age.
		
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10 is an exceptional age  for a foxhound - believe me, I had one as a pet.  The rescue org. I got her from thought she was a foxhoundxlab (she definitely wasn't!)  But she had no ear tattoo and had probably belonged to an unregistered Fell pack.

But my hunt kept at least one to 10 - I'd walked him so followed him with interest.  He was a valued stallion hound and the terrier man had to pick him up part way through the day if it got a bit vigourous!

ETA - I did my best to steer very clear of the huntsman if he'd had to put a foxhound down - he WASN'T a happy man.  But the hound died with absolutely no stress or pain - he trusted the man who ended his life completely!  It was a job our huntsman NEVER delegated for that reason!


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## Auslander (31 January 2016)

angrybird1 said:



			Has anyone ever seen a hound in a vets surgery??
		
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If you're insinuating that hounds don't get veterinary treatment when required, you'd be wrong. They are valuable working animals, so failing to provide veterinary care would be pretty dumb


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## twiggy2 (31 January 2016)

angrybird1 said:



			Has anyone ever seen a hound in a vets surgery??
		
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yes, frequently in the past, they do not use us as their vets anymore for political reasons but when they came in they were great big goofballs that peed everywhere


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## Clannad48 (31 January 2016)

PTS is a better end than being 'rehomed' as a pet - ex hunt dogs do not make pets, they are unhappy unless in a pack, however 'crowded' it may seem.  They will chase and hunt down anything smaller that moves, cats, smaller dogs, rabbits and, yes, even small children.

I had a 're-homed hunt dog' (beagle) many years ago, it did not settle to being a pet, despite some very intensive training, love, care and attention.  It tried to chase/hunt everything it could. The end was when it chased and knocked over a small child who lived a couple of doors away. Speed and training counted for nothing, luckily the child came to no harm, the neighbours were very understanding and did not blame the dog at all, but their very small child for running away. After many hours of debating, getting advice and so forth I had to make the decision to PTS. It was the kindest thing for the dog. These animals are not and never will be 'pets' they are working animals who are usually bred for a specific reason.  I now own another beagle, not an ex hunt dog, but a show dog that didn't make the grade as a rescue dog. However it will still chase deer and anything small that moves so is kept on a lead whenever we are out in an area that has deer.  It is never allowed of the lead where there are livestock, lambs/calves etc.


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## stormox (31 January 2016)

Yes the hounds are shot. The huntsman is trained and they dont suffer. They are killed in the place theyve lived all their lives. No stress of a vet and a needle... Huntsmen are also trained in stitching wounds, as pack hounds fight occasionally, or get injured by wire, or muntjacks. A huntsman is a true professional, good at his job, which is so much more than just controlling hounds when out hunting.


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## Orca (31 January 2016)

stormox said:



			Yes the hounds are shot. The huntsman is trained and they dont suffer. They are killed in the place theyve lived all their lives. No stress of a vet and a needle... Huntsmen are also trained in stitching wounds, as pack hounds fight occasionally, or get injured by wire, or muntjacks. A huntsman is a true professional, good at his job, which is so much more than just controlling hounds when out hunting.
		
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Agreed. The huntsman and whips attended to hounds when I lived at a hunt. They managed most treatments themselves and pts too. I never saw an unhappy hound (except maybe on a starvation day!) or one which was in pain. I'm not a hunt supporter but I know that pack were adored by those who cared for them. The way they handled and talked about individual characters in the pack spoke volumes. There is no way those people would have seen any of their hounds in pain or afraid.


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## chillipup (31 January 2016)

Auslander said:



			If you're insinuating that hounds don't get veterinary treatment when required, you'd be wrong. They are valuable working animals, so failing to provide veterinary care would be pretty dumb
		
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You were far too quick out the traps here  A,     ETA, have I got this backwards already I interpreted AB's post as they were in favour of  hunt home pts. Oh dear, sorry, if I've got it wrong again... 





Peter7917 said:



			Yes I quite agree, however this article indicates they are shot?
		
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angrybird1 said:



			Has anyone ever seen a hound in a vets surgery??
		
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## spottybotty (31 January 2016)

angrybird1 said:



			Has anyone ever seen a hound in a vets surgery??
		
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Funnily enough Yes! but it had got seperated from the hunt and was bought into the surgery by a MOP


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## Auslander (31 January 2016)

chillipup said:



			You were far too quick out the traps here  A, rule #? 

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Y'what??


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## Clodagh (31 January 2016)

twiggy2 said:



			yes, frequently in the past, they do not use us as their vets anymore for political reasons but when they came in they were great big goofballs that peed everywhere
		
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I took a foxhound bitch I had at home to whelp to your vets many years ago for an emergency caeser. 
The huntsman can treat most minor ailments, like a good stud groom they don't call the vet out for every little thing. Hounds are generally healthy things, bar accidents.
Yes they got shot at the end, it is quite legal to shoot your own dogs.


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## chillipup (31 January 2016)

Auslander said:



			Y'what??
		
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Sorry A, I interpreted AB as being in agreement with hunt pts at home....I tried to correct...but...* Gets coat and slinks off 

eta that AB was in agreement for hounds to be shot at home....how wrong of me...i'll just read from now on


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## Auslander (31 January 2016)

chillipup said:



			Sorry A, I interpreted AB as being in agreement with hunt pts at home....I tried to correct...but...* Gets coat and slinks off 

eta that AB was in agreement for hounds to be shot at home....how wrong of me...i'll just read from now on
		
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Don't be daft. I wasn't grumpy - just a bit confused!


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## LD&S (31 January 2016)

Happy to state from the off I am anti hunting.

I think it would be very naïve to imagine all hounds bred for hunting are suitable, that being the case any unsuitable hound has to be dealt with, this may be by putting to sleep, rehoming or finding an alternative form of work. 
Judging by the small numbers of hounds cropping up in other spheres or on rehoming sites the vast majority are pts, following on from that I don't think many hunts would pay for the services of a vet as a huntsman with a bullet is far cheaper and also would provide an addition protein source for the remaining pack members.

Even 3-4 dogs together getting excited can end up with nasty injuries, when that number is perhaps 20+ and the hounds are chasing something, prey or scent, I expect there are fatalities or at the very least serious injury on a fairly regular basis across the various hunts.

I'm not sure that readers of the report should be horrified that the dogs are shot, after all quite a large proportion of horse owners choose shooting over the vet when the final day comes also generally we are still a nation of meat eaters and to the dogs it would just be a tasty meal in the same way humans might enjoy a steak.

I have never seen a hound at the vets but a lot of people visit town vets for their dogs and cats but the vet generally visits for horses or large animals also in practical terms there is likely to be more that one hound needing to checked over at a time so it would make sense for the vet to make a house call.


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## AdorableAlice (31 January 2016)

LD&S said:



			Happy to state from the off I am anti hunting.

I think it would be very naïve to imagine all hounds bred for hunting are suitable, that being the case any unsuitable hound has to be dealt with, this may be by putting to sleep, rehoming or finding an alternative form of work. 
Judging by the small numbers of hounds cropping up in other spheres or on rehoming sites the vast majority are pts, following on from that I don't think many hunts would pay for the services of a vet as a huntsman with a bullet is far cheaper and also would provide an addition protein source for the remaining pack members.

Even 3-4 dogs together getting excited can end up with nasty injuries, when that number is perhaps 20+ and the hounds are chasing something, prey or scent, I expect there are fatalities or at the very least serious injury on a fairly regular basis across the various hunts.

I'm not sure that readers of the report should be horrified that the dogs are shot, after all quite a large proportion of horse owners choose shooting over the vet when the final day comes also generally we are still a nation of meat eaters and to the dogs it would just be a tasty meal in the same way humans might enjoy a steak.

I have never seen a hound at the vets but a lot of people visit town vets for their dogs and cats but the vet generally visits for horses or large animals also in practical terms there is likely to be more that one hound needing to checked over at a time so it would make sense for the vet to make a house call.
		
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What on earth makes you think a shot foxhound is fed to his fellow hounds ?


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## LD&S (31 January 2016)

I was commenting on the article and the fact that it stated it happened, I didn't say it did or didn't happen just that if it did the dogs wouldn't be aware they were eating anything other than a nice meal.


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## gunnergundog (31 January 2016)

LD&S said:



			Even 3-4 dogs together getting excited can end up with nasty injuries, when that number is perhaps 20+ and the hounds are chasing something, prey or scent, I expect there are fatalities or at the very least serious injury on a fairly regular basis across the various hunts.

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The average  huntsman has far more control and discipline of 20+ couple than the average Joe Bloggs does of 2 or 3 mutts.  Also, when hounds are hunting, they are FOCUSSED on that, not  on scrapping.  Odd scrapes result from barbed wire/blackthorns but that is all.  The occasional fatality/serious injury happens if a hound strays onto the road/railway line.  Hounds live as a pack in kennels with an established hierarchy.


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## Irish gal (31 January 2016)

A lot of farmers and horse people do a lot of their own vet stuff, I mean the routine things like injecting antibiotics, without ever calling the vet out first. If the farmers didn't do it they would be totally broke, plus they are highly experienced with animals and have seen common ailments loads so know how to treat them. It's the same with the huntsmen, their level of interaction with the hounds would be similar, so I imagine they only get vets for something unusual. 

It must be so tough on them shooting the older hounds though, can't imagine anything worse, couldn't do it myself.


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## Peter7917 (31 January 2016)

For some reason I thought it was illegal to shoot a dog for euthanasia purposes. I've no issue with it. Thanks for the education


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## dominobrown (31 January 2016)

It would be far easier for the vet to go to hounds than vice versa. 
The hounds i have seen have always been fit and healthy, amd i have been shown around kennels when viewing a horsebox... ended up playing with all the puppies! Dog/ hounds etc are pack animals so when raised together in a pack as foxhounds are they dont savage each other. 
If you look at packs of wolves their instinct to protect each other is very strong. 
Foxhounds will be 'closer' to wolves than certain pet breeds of dogs which is probably why they dont settle as well as pets. They have been selectively bred to hunt and be kept the eay they are.

Also putting to sleep old or ill hounds is not culling! Shooting a whole pack of healthy hounds would be...


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## LD&S (31 January 2016)

gunnergundog said:



			The average  huntsman has far more control and discipline of 20+ couple than the average Joe Bloggs does of 2 or 3 mutts.  Also, when hounds are hunting, they are FOCUSSED on that, not  on scrapping.  Odd scrapes result from barbed wire/blackthorns but that is all.  The occasional fatality/serious injury happens if a hound strays onto the road/railway line.  Hounds live as a pack in kennels with an established hierarchy.
		
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Following on from your reply I didn't mention fighting just that the dogs get excited and sometimes any inbuilt caution disappears and they do things or go places they wouldn't normally.

I gather you know far more about hunting and hounds than I will ever know but wondered if you could answer a question? I will pm you.


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## L&M (31 January 2016)

One of the puppies I walked got hit by a car autumn hunting - he was taken straight to the vets by the huntsman's wife, who was following in a car.......minor injuries are dealt with in kennels by our huntsman, such as wound care or routine injections.

As I understand there is a 'cull' at the end of each season of older hounds, but have known our huntsman hang on to them as long as he can justify their worth, even if they are only out a few times a season. I also understand he dispatches himself and finds that part of the 'job' very tough as is very dedicated to his pack, and its welfare.


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## Clodagh (31 January 2016)

They certainly don't feed the carcass of old hounds to the pack. Dogs don't generally like the taste of other meat eaters, they didn't used to eat the fox, just break it up. 
Some old hounds get drafted to a slower pack, our local mink hounds are mainly old slow foxhounds.
We retired an old hound here, as my OH had walked him as a pup and followed his whole successful hunting and stud career. It didn't work and he had to go back to the kennels and be PTS, both OH and the huntsman were devastated.
It is legal, as I said, to shoot your own dogs, you can also shoot your own horse if you know what you are doing.


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## poiuytrewq (31 January 2016)

I'm not a big hunting person but I trusted a huntsman to pts my horses which I've seen done incredibly professionally. Why not hounds. They go in their normal environment. Probably less stressful than when I had to take my dog to the vet to lie on a table and be injected to pts


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## chillipup (31 January 2016)

Peter7917 said:



			For some reason I thought it was illegal to shoot a dog for euthanasia purposes. I've no issue with it. Thanks for the education 

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No, perfectly legal P, as long as an animal isn't caused any deliberate or unnecessary suffering in the process, and using a firearm is pretty instant, if done correctly. 

I think a lot of people are unaware of this and having never witnessed it, appear to think it's a violent or cruel method of PTS. Many old working dogs are swiftly and painlessly dispatched, without any prior knowledge, fear or anticipation, using a firearm. A friends father is a gamekeeper, he puts down a bowl of grub for his old dog, and that's the end... notwithstanding the grief he's left to suffer from losing a well loved and close friend.


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## FemelleReynard (1 February 2016)

gunnergundog said:



			The average  huntsman has far more control and discipline of 20+ couple than the average Joe Bloggs does of 2 or 3 mutts.  Also, when hounds are hunting, they are FOCUSSED on that, not  on scrapping.  Odd scrapes result from barbed wire/blackthorns but that is all.  The occasional fatality/serious injury happens if a hound strays onto the road/railway line.  Hounds live as a pack in kennels with an established hierarchy.
		
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THIS! And for the record, huntsmen definitely DO NOT feed dead hounds to the rest of the pack. What a ridiculous idea.


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## Wagtail (1 February 2016)

dominobrown said:



			Also putting to sleep old or ill hounds is not culling! Shooting a whole pack of healthy hounds would be...
		
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I think that it _is_ culling. It's the same thing when we cull deer, or any other animal for that matter. The elderly, sick or lame are killed. That's what culling is. Hounds are usually culled at around seven years old when their working life is over. Many are still otherwise healthy so it is still culling.


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## minesadouble (1 February 2016)

Just in case anyone is wondering the RSPCA shoot dogs too....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...s-down-10-German-Shepherds-with-bolt-gun.html


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## MotherOfChickens (1 February 2016)

minesadouble said:



			Just in case anyone is wondering the RSPCA shoot dogs too....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...s-down-10-German-Shepherds-with-bolt-gun.html

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I think the most telling thing about that story is once again, the RSPCA failed to involve the breed rescue about the dogs, not how they were PTS. 

I don't see why captive bolt is so unreasonable when it comes to hounds or dogs. It would have been the kinder option for my old collie I think.


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## minesadouble (1 February 2016)

MotherOfChickens said:



			I think the most telling thing about that story is once again, the RSPCA failed to involve the breed rescue about the dogs, not how they were PTS. 

I don't see why captive bolt is so unreasonable when it comes to hounds or dogs. It would have been the kinder option for my old collie I think.
		
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I agree with you 100% on that. I just wanted to highlight the fact that it is not only hunts who shoot dogs. A lot of working gundog owners do the same, I think it is probably way less stressful than a visit to the Vet's surgery.


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## pennyturner (1 February 2016)

We had the local knacker out to dispatch (shoot) two old pet pigs recently.  He did a splendid job; they didn't know a thing about it - and a pig will get wind of anything untoward faster than a dog would.  
I have wondered about asking him if he does dogs.  I know our dogs would rather not go to the vet.


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## popsdosh (1 February 2016)

minesadouble said:



			I agree with you 100% on that. I just wanted to highlight the fact that it is not only hunts who shoot dogs. A lot of working gundog owners do the same, I think it is probably way less stressful than a visit to the Vet's surgery.
		
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I am very surprised they used captive bolt to kill those dogs I am not sure its legal. Free bullet is ok however I thought captive bolt is only classified as a means of stunning before bleeding. 
I myself dispatch all my own animals including horses but would never use captive bolt.


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## Luci07 (1 February 2016)

Just going back to the control points made. I have met the local bloodhounds out walking on the roads. 3 horses and about 20 dogs. All perfectly under control.

And theres me who can't manage a single dog on the road if on horseback! (off road is fine)


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## Dry Rot (1 February 2016)

I was involved with hounds in my youth. Yes, we did manage to control them most of the time but I can recall some memorable hunts. We once treed a cross country runner who had taken stand on top of a gate. We explained how lucky he had been as if they'd caught him in the open at ground level he could very well have been licked to death!

The coalman's jack russell also provided regular sport. Back then, coal was delivered by horse and cart and we dreaded hearing the sound of the hooves as the hounds would already have their ears pricked and be difficult to hold back!  For some reason, the terrier always managed to escape.


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## kateandluelue (1 February 2016)

Clannad48 said:



			PTS is a better end than being 'rehomed' as a pet - ex hunt dogs do not make pets, they are unhappy unless in a pack, however 'crowded' it may seem.  They will chase and hunt down anything smaller that moves, cats, smaller dogs, rabbits and, yes, even small children.

I had a 're-homed hunt dog' (beagle) many years ago, it did not settle to being a pet, despite some very intensive training, love, care and attention.  It tried to chase/hunt everything it could. The end was when it chased and knocked over a small child who lived a couple of doors away. Speed and training counted for nothing, luckily the child came to no harm, the neighbours were very understanding and did not blame the dog at all, but their very small child for running away. After many hours of debating, getting advice and so forth I had to make the decision to PTS. It was the kindest thing for the dog. These animals are not and never will be 'pets' they are working animals who are usually bred for a specific reason.  I now own another beagle, not an ex hunt dog, but a show dog that didn't make the grade as a rescue dog. However it will still chase deer and anything small that moves so is kept on a lead whenever we are out in an area that has deer.  It is never allowed of the lead where there are livestock, lambs/calves etc.
		
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Are u joking?? What a ridiculously generalised statement.
We have rehomed 2x foxhounds and although it took alot of training and time, it was totally do able.


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## kateandluelue (1 February 2016)

I dont find it cruel that they shoot them; it is probably far more humane than going into a clinical environment such as a vets. What i do find disgusting is the 'disposable' attitude SOME hunts have. Oh yes lets cull the ones that are 7years and over. How wasteful. We rescued a hound at 8years old and although took some time to train, turned out to be loyal, kind, EASY GOING, and lived until she was 16 without costing us a penny.


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## Clannad48 (1 February 2016)

kateandluelue said:



			Are u joking?? What a ridiculously generalised statement.
We have rehomed 2x foxhounds and although it took alot of training and time, it was totally do able.
		
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Definitely not joking, and not ridiculously generalised  - if you have been able to successfully rehome then you have been extremely lucky as are the dogs you have rehomed - I have been involved with hunts and beagles for over 50 years, many many times dogs taken to be rehomed as pets ended up being returned to the hunt as unable to be trained effectively. And I am not talking about people with no experience of hunt dogs, one of the hunt masters took a couple of the older dogs to be rehomed as pets and was devastated when it did not work out.  I think a lot may depend on how long the dogs have been hunted as to whether it will be successful.  In past times a dog stayed with the hunt for longer,  nowadays with so many hunts having to cut back, some dogs may have only hunted for a couple of seasons


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## wench (1 February 2016)

kateandluelue said:



			Are u joking?? What a ridiculously generalised statement.
We have rehomed 2x foxhounds and although it took alot of training and time, it was totally do able.
		
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How many "normal" dogs are in rescue kennels with behavioural problems that are hard to fix, let alone trying to retrain dogs that are not designed for it


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## kateandluelue (1 February 2016)

wench said:



			How many "normal" dogs are in rescue kennels with behavioural problems that are hard to fix, let alone trying to retrain dogs that are not designed for it
		
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I would say a hound that has had a good life and not been abused would be easier to train than some of the sorry states of abused dogs that end up in rehoming centres. Just adds weight to the argument that the hunts treat their animals as disposable commodities. Ive had pro hunt friends that have changed against the hunts due to their treatment of both the hounds and horses. If they cared about their hounds they would try their hardest to rehome and give their dogs who have been loyal to them for 7 years of their life, a future.


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## wench (1 February 2016)

Rescue kennels are full as it is. Why fill them full of more animals that make unsuitable pets?


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## kateandluelue (1 February 2016)

why breed them in the first place for a bloodsport that has no place in todays society


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## Alec Swan (1 February 2016)

kateandluelue said:



			&#8230;&#8230;..
We have rehomed 2x foxhounds and although it took alot of training and time, it was totally do able.
		
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I'd be interested to hear which Pack would release a Hound to a pet home.  To subject any Hound to a domestic prison would be cruelty in the extreme.

Alec.


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## palo1 (1 February 2016)

I don't know if it counts but we have a rehomed fell hound, complete with ear tattoos. We had her at the age of 2 when it became clear that she didn't really fancy the job in hand! She is not really like other 'dogs' but an understanding of hound mentality and needs, coupled with her very sweet and laid back nature means that for us she is an unqualified success. We have had her 5 years.  She has met the local hunt pack occasionally but other than being polite she has shown no desire to join them.  I don't have any problem with hounds being shot by their huntsman: I think it a much kinder end than boredom, frailty or infirmity, but I am very glad we had our hound and would happily have more of them if unsuited/unhappy in the pack. Hounds are brilliant and rather fascinating canines really but probably not suited to every situation outside the pack.


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## kateandluelue (1 February 2016)

Wow, Alec im concerned about your understanding and interpretation of 'extreme cruelty'. What i deem extreme cruelty is animal neglect, abuse, starvation, beating, abandonment, bloodsports ETC. If Rehoming a working dog with SUCCESS is your interpretation of cruelty then i am undoubted in my opinion that you must also, like me be a fellow anti hunt supporter

At 8 years old she was looking for the quiet life. If she was struggling with her 'domestic prison' im sure she would have let us know through her behaviours. However i think she quite enjoyed having a comfortable bed, not fighting for her food and regular walks.


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## Wagtail (1 February 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			I'd be interested to hear which Pack would release a Hound to a pet home.  To subject any Hound to a domestic prison would be cruelty in the extreme.

Alec.
		
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Eh? You have a very odd idea of cruelty, Alex. I'm not saying that hounds could be rehomed in a suburban setting, but in a country home, with people who understand their needs, now that is different. Cruelty in the extreme?


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## kateandluelue (1 February 2016)

Wagtail said:



			Eh? You have a very odd idea of cruelty, Alex. I'm not saying that hounds could be rehomed in a suburban setting, but in a country home, with people who understand their needs, now that is different. Cruelty in the extreme?
		
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Totally agree


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## Alec Swan (1 February 2016)

Kate,  your understanding of the Hound is clearly quite different from that of those who dwell and deal with,  handle and understand them on a daily basis,  those who have given their lives to such work.  I'll bow to your greater understanding! 

Alec.


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## Wagtail (1 February 2016)

I think it all boils down to economics and practicalities. There are just far too many hounds (and domestic dogs for that matter) to be rehomed. Too many dogs are bred. Too many hounds are bred and then disposed of. I reckon a hound has a pretty good life though. I would like to see hunts give them a well earned retirement. But that's not going to happen. They're not going to feed, care for and exercise them until they need putting to sleep because their quality of life has deteriorated. It's not economical.


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## palo1 (1 February 2016)

Alec, sincerely speaking, what would your perspective be on our fell hound? Would that be substantially different to a standard hound? If not, then it is extraordinary that she has been so happy, bless her. We were aware when we took her that she had been a hound and not, in fact, just a 'working dog': I do think the two are a little different.  We have always made some allowances, never with worrying consequences thankfully.


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## Alec Swan (1 February 2016)

Wagtail said:



			I think it all boils down to economics and practicalities. There are just far too many hounds (and domestic dogs for that matter) to be rehomed. Too many dogs are bred. Too many hounds are bred and then disposed of. I reckon a hound has a pretty good life though. I would like to see hunts give them a well earned retirement. But that's not going to happen. They're not going to feed, care for and exercise them until they need putting to sleep because their quality of life has deteriorated. It's not economical.
		
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I agree with you,  except that you've missed out one vital aspect of the life of a Hound;  They are bred for just one purpose,  and when they're denied that,  and in old age especially so,  the frustration for them must be dreadful.

Alec.


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## Clodagh (1 February 2016)

We have retired 5 hounds here in my time.
Two old bassetts, who free ranged in the day and slept in a kennel. (Seperately) they did fine.
A harrier who hated pack life and did fine, she was a house dog.
Two fox hounds, neither of whom coped without their pack, wouldn't eat and had to be PTS.

We have 8 dogs here anyway, so in the daytime all our old hounds lived a sort of pack life but not all took to it. The foxhounds were the hardest. 

I think being PTS is much the best bet. How many ex racing tbs would be better off as salami than the auction circuit?


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## kateandluelue (1 February 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			Kate,  your understanding of the Hound is clearly quite different from that of those who dwell and deal with,  handle and understand them on a daily basis,  those who have given their lives to such work.  I'll bow to your greater understanding! 

Alec.
		
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Any dog, hound or not if given the right rehabilitation can lead a normal life, with exceptions of course. Its people like you, who have made your feelings clear on giving hounds a chance at life, that let humanity down. 
Any right minded caring individual who, as you say dwells and deals with, handles and understands them on a daily basis, you would have though would want to try and give them more of a life than 7 years. But oh i forget its the hunting world, everything is disposable.


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## Wagtail (1 February 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			I agree with you,  except that you've missed out one vital aspect of the life of a Hound;  They are bred for just one purpose,  and when they're denied that,  and in old age especially so,  the frustration for them must be dreadful.

Alec.
		
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You are right when you say that is what they are bred for. But you are wrong if you think that just because we humans breed a dog to do a certain job, they cannot do something else and be equally happy.


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## Clodagh (1 February 2016)

kateandluelue said:



			Any dog, hound or not if given the right rehabilitation can lead a normal life, with exceptions of course. Its people like you, who have made your feelings clear on giving hounds a chance at life, that let humanity down. 
Any right minded caring individual who, as you say dwells and deals with, handles and understands them on a daily basis, you would have though would want to try and give them more of a life than 7 years. But oh i forget its the hunting world, everything is disposable.
		
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They really can't all do it, we have tried. See my earlier posts. I appreciate we will probably never see eye to eye on this but huntsman love their hounds and hate culling them ,and rehome the ones that will, probably to another pack.


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## Clodagh (1 February 2016)

Wagtail said:



			You are right when you say that is what they are bred for. But you are wrong if you think that just because we humans breed a dog to do a certain job, they cannot do something else and be equally happy.
		
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I really don't trhink hounds are happy if they can't hunt. As we live on a farm all ours spend many a happy hour hunting rabbits and out pottering about, using their noses and hunting is what they do. Like retired greyhounds that can only walk on a lead, not letting a foxhound hunt is cruel.


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## kateandluelue (1 February 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			I agree with you,  except that you've missed out one vital aspect of the life of a Hound;  They are bred for just one purpose,  and when they're denied that,  and in old age especially so,  the frustration for them must be dreadful.

Alec.
		
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Yeah our hound really struggled with sleeping on our bed with us. It was really traumatic for her.


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## {97702} (1 February 2016)

Clodagh said:



			I really don't trhink hounds are happy if they can't hunt. As we live on a farm all ours spend many a happy hour hunting rabbits and out pottering about, using their noses and hunting is what they do. Like retired greyhounds that can only walk on a lead, not letting a foxhound hunt is cruel.
		
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Having known many hundreds of retired greyhounds, I totally disagree with this statement.  Greyhounds are - as the quote goes - the ultimate couch potato and many are not remotely bothered by being walked on a lead 

I would also add that I was very surprised by a 'shock horror' media story that hit the headlines a few years ago, where there was an "expose" of a trainer who shot the unsuccessful/injured greyhounds with a bolt gun.  Even as a besotted greyhound owner/lover I have no problem with that - dogs do not have ANY sense of anticipation, they are happy to the end and go up to the trainer they love wagging their tails, I can think of a lot worse ways to go...... (like being dumped with their ears cut off too remove the tattoos which will identify their owner/breeder, that's a quite common one  )


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## kateandluelue (1 February 2016)

Clodagh said:



			I really don't trhink hounds are happy if they can't hunt. As we live on a farm all ours spend many a happy hour hunting rabbits and out pottering about, using their noses and hunting is what they do. Like retired greyhounds that can only walk on a lead, not letting a foxhound hunt is cruel.
		
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How is it any different to not letting a terrier hunt? My terriers are not at all traumatised by not going down holes and hunting. Given the right amount of exercise a dog can live a calm and balanced life


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## kateandluelue (1 February 2016)

Clodagh said:



			I really don't trhink hounds are happy if they can't hunt. As we live on a farm all ours spend many a happy hour hunting rabbits and out pottering about, using their noses and hunting is what they do. Like retired greyhounds that can only walk on a lead, not letting a foxhound hunt is cruel.
		
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How is it any different to not letting a terrier hunt? My terriers are not at all traumatised by not going down holes and hunting. Given the right amount of exercise a dog can live a calm and balanced life.

And what about other animals bred for a reason ie hunting horses,


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## kateandluelue (1 February 2016)

Lévrier;13161641 said:
			
		


			Having known many hundreds of retired greyhounds, I totally disagree with this statement.  Greyhounds are - as the quote goes - the ultimate couch potato and many are not remotely bothered by being walked on a lead 

I would also add that I was very surprised by a 'shock horror' media story that hit the headlines a few years ago, where there was an "expose" of a trainer who shot the unsuccessful/injured greyhounds with a bolt gun.  Even as a besotted greyhound owner/lover I have no problem with that - dogs do not have ANY sense of anticipation, they are happy to the end and go up to the trainer they love wagging their tails, I can think of a lot worse ways to go...... (like being dumped with their ears cut off too remove the tattoos which will identify their owner/breeder, that's a quite common one  )
		
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Yep completely agree. Greyhounds are an excellent example.


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## Clodagh (1 February 2016)

Lévrier;13161641 said:
			
		


			Having known many hundreds of retired greyhounds, I totally disagree with this statement.  Greyhounds are - as the quote goes - the ultimate couch potato and many are not remotely bothered by being walked on a lead 

I would also add that I was very surprised by a 'shock horror' media story that hit the headlines a few years ago, where there was an "expose" of a trainer who shot the unsuccessful/injured greyhounds with a bolt gun.  Even as a besotted greyhound owner/lover I have no problem with that - dogs do not have ANY sense of anticipation, they are happy to the end and go up to the trainer they love wagging their tails, I can think of a lot worse ways to go...... (like being dumped with their ears cut off too remove the tattoos which will identify their owner/breeder, that's a quite common one  )
		
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MY OH shoots his working dogs, and as you say they know nothing and they all stress at the vets so is much easier for them.
I am unconvinced by having a greyhound that could never course, I have a lurcher and her reaction at a trigger - eg. running rabbit - would have been sadly wasted if she never could run. I suppose she would cope but it is what she has been bred for generations to do. Why do labradors and golden retreivers bring sticks/slippers/socks to their owners? They are fulfilling an instinctual need.


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## Clodagh (1 February 2016)

kateandluelue said:



			How is it any different to not letting a terrier hunt? My terriers are not at all traumatised by not going down holes and hunting. Given the right amount of exercise a dog can live a calm and balanced life.

And what about other animals bred for a reason ie hunting horses,
		
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I bet our terriers who hunt rats in the bales are happier...do yours ever go off lead? Horses are a completely different kettle of fish to dogs but have you ever seen a retired hunt horse pine?


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## kateandluelue (1 February 2016)

Clodagh said:



			MY OH shoots his working dogs, and as you say they know nothing and they all stress at the vets so is much easier for them.
I am unconvinced by having a greyhound that could never course, I have a lurcher and her reaction at a trigger - eg. running rabbit - would have been sadly wasted if she never could run. I suppose she would cope but it is what she has been bred for generations to do. Why do labradors and golden retreivers bring sticks/slippers/socks to their owners? They are fulfilling an instinctual need.
		
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Why not call the vet out to you so the dog doesnt have to go anywhere and experience the clinical environment?


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## {97702} (1 February 2016)

Clodagh said:



			MY OH shoots his working dogs, and as you say they know nothing and they all stress at the vets so is much easier for them.
I am unconvinced by having a greyhound that could never course, I have a lurcher and her reaction at a trigger - eg. running rabbit - would have been sadly wasted if she never could run. I suppose she would cope but it is what she has been bred for generations to do. Why do labradors and golden retreivers bring sticks/slippers/socks to their owners? They are fulfilling an instinctual need.
		
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Sorry but having had both, lurchers are a world apart from pure greyhounds - I will absolutely admit, if someone told me this I would be very sceptical, but having seen it in 'real life' I can confirm it is true.

I have a whippet x greyhound who is like chalk and cheese in personality to my 3 pure greyhounds - she is sharp, responsive, too intelligent for her own good, and she loves to be out and about   The 3 greyhounds are just the same as all the others I've had and known - laid back, relaxing, lazy and happy with life 

ETA - a good example (and I realise this is just ONE case) is my greyhound boy - he was retired at 5 1/2 so had a long career, and every day he has a walk off the lead for an absolute minimum of 30 minutes (timed to suit my old girl who is 12 1/2 and needs reduced walks nowadays....).  Granted he is 9 now, but every day he trots at my heels the whole way round and shows no inclination to run at all.  Out of the greyhounds I personally have adopted, I would say 90% of the pure greyhounds have been like that, Flick (my little white one) does chase Amy (the whippet x greyhound) on a walk because she adores her


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## Clodagh (1 February 2016)

kateandluelue said:



			Why not call the vet out to you so the dog doesnt have to go anywhere and experience the clinical environment?
		
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Why get the vet? The dogs go to the vet for treatment if they need it. As you like the horse/dog comparison having had horses both shot and injected I can assure you the injection is better for us, not for them. Held, clipped, injected, versus head in a bucket? That applies to both dogs and horses.


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## kateandluelue (1 February 2016)

Clodagh said:



			I bet our terriers who hunt rats in the bales are happier...do yours ever go off lead? Horses are a completely different kettle of fish to dogs but have you ever seen a retired hunt horse pine?
		
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My dogs are always off the lead, there are no issues. They have a LONG walk each day and love nothing more than coming back, getting on the sofa and sleeping.


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## Clodagh (1 February 2016)

Lévrier;13161658 said:
			
		


			Sorry but having had both, lurchers are a world apart from pure greyhounds - I will absolutely admit, if someone told me this I would be very sceptical, but having seen it in 'real life' I can confirm it is true.

I have a whippet x greyhound who is like chalk and cheese in personality to my 3 pure greyhounds - she is sharp, responsive, too intelligent for her own good, and she loves to be out and about   The 3 greyhounds are just the same as all the others I've had and known - laid back, relaxing, lazy and happy with life 

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I give you that then, I have never owned a greyhound. B-in-law had one who was very special indeed, but certainly no trouble.


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## Clodagh (1 February 2016)

kateandluelue said:



			My dogs are always off the lead, there are no issues. They have a LONG walk each day and love nothing more than coming back, getting on the sofa and sleeping.
		
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Well I am amazed and impressed that you can walk terriers off lead and they don't hunt anything, not even mice? Even my m-in-laws border terriers like a mouse hunt. Well done anyway, I am glad they are happy.


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## {97702} (1 February 2016)

Clodagh said:



			I give you that then, I have never owned a greyhound. B-in-law had one who was very special indeed, but certainly no trouble. 

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My lot are 'very special' in more ways than one


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## kateandluelue (1 February 2016)

Clodagh said:



			Why get the vet? The dogs go to the vet for treatment if they need it. As you like the horse/dog comparison having had horses both shot and injected I can assure you the injection is better for us, not for them. Held, clipped, injected, versus head in a bucket? That applies to both dogs and horses.
		
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Yes i agree, i have had horses both injected and shot and shot is much more humane for such a large animal. I just find it hard to understand the mentality of someone who can just shoot their dog, look into their face and shoot their loyal dog. Regardless of whether or not it needs putting down. I find it a reflection on that person really. Its one thing to shoot mans best friend, however to do it to your own dog, i find personally, something else. I t would to me be bad enough to do it to someone else's dog , whom you have no connection or bond with but your own dog.


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## Alec Swan (1 February 2016)

Clodagh said:



			&#8230;&#8230;.. . Why do labradors and golden retreivers bring sticks/slippers/socks to their owners? They are fulfilling an instinctual need.
		
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Clodagh,  there are those that cannot,  or will not accept your point.  A point well made nonetheless.

We have a local lady of whom I'm very fond,  and she has two 'retired' greyhounds.  They're walked twice a day,  and as many in their prison,  they have not been let off their leads for at least two years.  The poor creatures display stress levels which I'd have thought a blind person could see.  Apparently not.  The lady concerned has owned some fairly decent syndicated 'flat' horses,  and the only deal that she'll sign up to is that when their racing days are over,  they should be sent off to heaven.  For some reason,  that doesn't apply to greyhounds.  Perhaps they're just a convenience to her,  I'm not sure.  

Alec.


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## LD&S (1 February 2016)

Clodagh said:



			I really don't trhink hounds are happy if they can't hunt. As we live on a farm all ours spend many a happy hour hunting rabbits and out pottering about, using their noses and hunting is what they do. Like retired greyhounds that can only walk on a lead, not letting a foxhound hunt is cruel.
		
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I have two disposable sorry retired greyhounds, they are off lead every day, I've never had a hunting dog so can't comment on their suitability as pets but greyhounds on the whole make great pets.


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## kateandluelue (1 February 2016)

Clodagh said:



			Well I am amazed and impressed that you can walk terriers off lead and they don't hunt anything, not even mice? Even my m-in-laws border terriers like a mouse hunt. Well done anyway, I am glad they are happy.
		
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There is little to hunt where we are as its right on the broad however if the do see rabbits or rats occasionally, they never ever catch them they give up after a 2 min chase. Very rare though that we see anything.


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## Clodagh (1 February 2016)

kateandluelue said:



			Yes i agree, i have had horses both injected and shot and shot is much more humane for such a large animal. I just find it hard to understand the mentality of someone who can just shoot their dog, look into their face and shoot their loyal dog. Regardless of whether or not it needs putting down. I find it a reflection on that person really. Its one thing to shoot mans best friend, however to do it to your own dog, i find personally, something else. I t would to me be bad enough to do it to someone else's dog , whom you have no connection or bond with but your own dog.
		
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I think you are missing the point. The people I know, huntsmen included, do it as a final act for their dog/hound. I haven't met one that hasn't cried like a baby afterwards and been  really traumatised but they have felt they owe it to the dog to do it. I couldn't, I admit, but I admire them that can step up to the plate. I hold my horses heads while they are shot, it is much the same, although I gather pulling the trigger is worse. I love my horses as much as my OH loves his dogs.


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## Mariposa (1 February 2016)

Lévrier;13161641 said:
			
		


			I would also add that I was very surprised by a 'shock horror' media story that hit the headlines a few years ago, where there was an "expose" of a trainer who shot the unsuccessful/injured greyhounds with a bolt gun.  Even as a besotted greyhound owner/lover I have no problem with that - dogs do not have ANY sense of anticipation, they are happy to the end and go up to the trainer they love wagging their tails, I can think of a lot worse ways to go...... (like being dumped with their ears cut off too remove the tattoos which will identify their owner/breeder, that's a quite common one  )
		
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I agree. 

My grandmother was a very successful coursing greyhound trainer and breeder, and when a greyhound's career was over, if she didn't feel it was right to be rehomed ( and most were not suitable as my mum recalls, as they were not pets), she'd take them to the local hunt, they'd think they were going on exercise, they'd be happy as they were with my granny who they adored, and someone would throw something in the hedge, they'd look over in excitement and were gone immediately. They were always shot, never injected.

Working Greyhounds, like hounds, are not pets - and not all will be suitable for a domestic life. I'm a huge dog lover and it would break my heart to shoot any of our lurchers, but they difference is they are our pets, whilst working dogs are not :/


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## kateandluelue (1 February 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			Clodagh,  there are those that cannot,  or will not accept your point.  A point well made nonetheless.

We have a local lady of whom I'm very fond,  and she has two 'retired' greyhounds.  They're walked twice a day,  and as many in their prison,  they have not been let off their leads for at least two years.  The poor creatures display stress levels which I'd have thought a blind person could see.  Apparently not.  The lady concerned has owned some fairly decent syndicated 'flat' horses,  and the only deal that she'll sign up to is that when their racing days are over,  they should be sent off to heaven.  For some reason,  that doesn't apply to greyhounds.  Perhaps they're just a convenience to her,  I'm not sure.  

Alec.
		
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I hope you never get considered 'past it', and i hope people dont use the same assessment on quality of life that you have done for hounds here tonight or you may end up with a bullet too.


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## Clodagh (1 February 2016)

kateandluelue said:



			I hope you never get considered 'past it', and i hope people dont use the same assessment on quality of life that you have done for hounds here tonight or you may end up with a bullet too.
		
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God would you not rather have a bullet than they way a friend of mine is dying at the moment, with Parkinsons? He is 49 and if you put a dog through what he was experiencing you would go to jail. He, however, can die choking on his own saliva. I have to leave this debate now.


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## kateandluelue (1 February 2016)

Clodagh said:



			God would you not rather have a bullet than they way a friend of mine is dying at the moment, with Parkinsons? He is 49 and if you put a dog through what he was experiencing you would go to jail. He, however, can die choking on his own saliva. I have to leave this debate now.
		
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Im a nurse im very aware of suffering. I just find Alec's assessment on hound quality of life flawed. That was my point

I am sorry about your friend. Awful disease.


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## LD&S (1 February 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			Clodagh,  there are those that cannot,  or will not accept your point.  A point well made nonetheless.

We have a local lady of whom I'm very fond,  and she has two 'retired' greyhounds.  They're walked twice a day,  and as many in their prison,  they have not been let off their leads for at least two years.  The poor creatures display stress levels which I'd have thought a blind person could see.  Apparently not.  The lady concerned has owned some fairly decent syndicated 'flat' horses,  and the only deal that she'll sign up to is that when their racing days are over,  they should be sent off to heaven.  For some reason,  that doesn't apply to greyhounds.  Perhaps they're just a convenience to her,  I'm not sure.  

Alec.
		
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I would be interested to know what signs of stress they were displaying and can you be certain it is only because she doesn't let them off a lead when out and about. Being part of the greyhound owning population even I am amazed at how many greyhounds don't even want to be bothered to go for a walk.
Unfortunately a great number of greyhounds suffer during their racing or training lives and carry the mental and physical scars until the day they die.


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## honetpot (1 February 2016)

I think all dogs are at the mercy of their owners, when things go wrong its usually the dog is usually being mismanaged.
  Like most working dogs hounds have been selected for the traits that make them do their job well, its an instinct that is more highly developed than a domestic pet. Managed in a hunt that instinct is channelled, now a normal home may be able to provide a channel for that instinct but the chance are it will not. Look at all the problems caused by collies and spaniels being in family home where their working instincts are not channelled. 
  In our village their were three pet beagles, all the owners had trouble controlling them and the one that came from working lines spent more time wandering the fen than at home.
  Whether you are agree with hunting or not working dogs are often destroyed at the end of their working life, as are working horses and meat animals , its economics. Dairy farmers a cow that they have had for many years and know well will be culled, http://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/when-your-favourite-cow-goes.99656/
  Its how they are looked after before is the important bit.


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## Alec Swan (1 February 2016)

LD&S said:



			&#8230;&#8230;.. I am amazed at how many greyhounds don't even want to be bothered to go for a walk. &#8230;&#8230;...
		
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Generally the first sign of a stressed dog.

Alec.


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## {97702} (1 February 2016)

LD&S said:



			I would be interested to know what signs of stress they were displaying and can you be certain it is only because she doesn't let them off a lead when out and about. Being part of the greyhound owning population even I am amazed at how many greyhounds don't even want to be bothered to go for a walk.
Unfortunately a great number of greyhounds suffer during their racing or training lives and carry the mental and physical scars until the day they die.
		
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I wouldn't bother LD&S, AlecSwan will talk total *******s about ex-racing greyhounds until the cows come home - he bases all his assumptions and the rubbish he spouts on the one person he appears to know, so of course he is a total "expert" in his own eyes.


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## kateandluelue (1 February 2016)

Lévrier;13161707 said:
			
		


			I wouldn't bother LD&S, AlecSwan will talk total *******s about ex-racing greyhounds until the cows come home - he bases all his assumptions and the rubbish he spouts on the one person he appears to know, so of course he is a total "expert" in his own eyes.
		
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Haha brilliant! He is a dog expert you know. He confirmed it tonight with his thorough assessment of hounds and their needs. No working dog can lead a non working life. Alec 'Cesar' Swan has confirmed it.


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## Alec Swan (1 February 2016)

So,  with nothing else to add,  we have nothing else to offer but insult and obscenity?  The next step tends to be spealling an grimmer! 

Alec.


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## kateandluelue (1 February 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			So,  with nothing else to add,  we have nothing else to offer but insult and obscenity?  The next step tends to be spealling an grimmer! 

Alec.
		
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I can cope with poor spealing and grimmer. Dark beliefs i could not. But yes, we can agree there is nothing further to add.


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## wench (1 February 2016)

I always find in posts like this that the people that cannot have a sensible conversation/debate and resort to name calling actually know nothing about what they claim to be an expert on.

Greyhounds, although hunting hounds, are bred for a totally different purpose to foxhounds. They are designed for a two hundred yard sprint, catch the quarry on their own, then go back home to sleep for the rest of the day after their hard work. Foxhounds are bred to work in a pack and cover many miles per day. Fell hounds (although my knowledge of them is limited), will have been bred from hounds with different traits to foxhounds, so will be different again,


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## {97702} (1 February 2016)

Speak for yourself there Wench - personally I know quite a lot about ex racing greyhounds having worked very closely with a rescue charity for a number of years as well as having my own greyhounds, what infuriates me is when people set themselves up as experts on something they clearly know nothing about, and spout rubbish which is totally untrue and inaccurate


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## G&T (1 February 2016)

I can't claim to be an expert on hounds or whether they would take to being re-homed when their working lives are over - I'd imagine many wouldn't be able to adjust, and we've heard that there are cases of those who do cope. However - if a hound has no other possible use or purpose other than hunting , then what is the justification of continuing to breed them (foxhounds at least) given hunting is illegal? Dog breeding that feeds other illegal activities i.e. breeding pitbulls for dog fighting, is shut down by police. I'm interested as to why foxhounds are still allowed to be bred. Whats the point?


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## kateandluelue (1 February 2016)

G&T said:



			I can't claim to be an expert on hounds or whether they would take to being re-homed when their working lives are over - I'd imagine many wouldn't be able to adjust, and we've heard that there are cases of those who do cope. However - if a hound has no other possible use or purpose other than hunting , then what is the justification of continuing to breed them (foxhounds at least) given hunting is illegal? Dog breeding that feeds other illegal activities i.e. breeding pitbulls for dog fighting, is shut down by police. I'm interested as to why foxhounds are still allowed to be bred. Whats the point?
		
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Yeah thats a really good point


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## wench (1 February 2016)

Trail hunting is not illegal which is what fox hounds are used for...


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## LD&S (1 February 2016)

Lévrier;13161707 said:
			
		


			I wouldn't bother LD&S, AlecSwan will talk total *******s about ex-racing greyhounds until the cows come home - he bases all his assumptions and the rubbish he spouts on the one person he appears to know, so of course he is a total "expert" in his own eyes.
		
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Greyhounds are so lazy and if it's raining, well that's a whole another story as no doubt you know lol


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## TwyfordM (1 February 2016)

I don't have any experience of foxhounds, but I agree that putting them to sleep at the end of their working lives isn't the end of the world! Its far far better than ending up in an unsuitable home. I gather that the breed needs a huge amount of exercise, have a pack mentality, high prey drive and have lived in kennels with their pack their whole lives. Doesn't exactly make the ideal pet and its hard (not impossible though) to meet their needs in a home environment. You would have to train them out of everything they have been bred and trained to do for their entire lives up to that point and I don't think that fair.

I don't understand how someone can be pro shooting a horse but anti shooting a dog. What's the difference?! 

I don't personally eat meat but have no issue with those that do or farming for meat. Fine for a sheep/cow/pig to be bred for and killed for a purpose but everyone seems to get het up about it when its a "pet" type of animal. I've had a house rabbit in the past, doesn't bother me feeding my dog rabbit though! 

I have a retired greyhound as a pet, he was miserable in kennels and as a result wouldn't chase so was rehomed at 18months. That instinct is there, he will chase anything small that runs but his energy levels are easily met in a home environment. He was never in a "pack" so that wasn't an issue.

Greyhounds and foxhounds are worlds apart!


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## chillipup (1 February 2016)

minesadouble said:



			Just in case anyone is wondering the RSPCA shoot dogs too....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...s-down-10-German-Shepherds-with-bolt-gun.html

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Of course they do minesadouble, they are firearms trained (regularly) and firearms licensed holders. What would you do if you were called to an overturned truck carrying a hundred sheep on their way to a slaughter house over 100+ miles away to be made into curry, that were suffering hideously and dying as a result of the accident? Try to imagine the carnage? (with the OK of a vet of course, who may or quite likely may not have a firearms licence and firearm with him/her) or the deer involved in a road collision sustaining two compound fractured legs and is still trying it's utmost  to scamble away?



popsdosh said:



			I am very surprised they used captive bolt to kill those dogs I am not sure its legal. Free bullet is ok however I thought captive bolt is only classified as a means of stunning before bleeding. 
I myself dispatch all my own animals including horses but would never use captive bolt.
		
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Of course it's legal! Unlike a free fire bullet firearm, the risk, in perhaps a built up area, over concrete/hard ground blah de blah, a captive bolt is both legal and preferred, due to safety reasons (possible ricochet) However, it is necessary to 'pith' the animal immediately, which they do. From what I recall from being reliably informed, they carry both a captive bolt and free fire bullet gun.



chillipup said:



			No, perfectly legal P, as long as an animal isn't caused any deliberate or unnecessary suffering in the process, and using a firearm is pretty instant, if done correctly. 

I think a lot of people are unaware of this and having never witnessed it, appear to think it's a violent or cruel method of PTS. Many old working dogs are swiftly and painlessly dispatched, without any prior knowledge, fear or anticipation, using a firearm. A friends father is a gamekeeper, he puts down a bowl of grub for his old dog, and that's the end... notwithstanding the grief he's left to suffer from losing a well loved and close friend.
		
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kateandluelue said:



			Why not call the vet out to you so the dog doesnt have to go anywhere and experience the clinical environment?
		
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kateandluelue said:



			Yes i agree, i have had horses both injected and shot and shot is much more humane for such a large animal. I just find it hard to understand the mentality of someone who can just shoot their dog, look into their face and shoot their loyal dog. Regardless of whether or not it needs putting down. I find it a reflection on that person really. Its one thing to shoot mans best friend, however to do it to your own dog, i find personally, something else. I t would to me be bad enough to do it to someone else's dog , whom you have no connection or bond with but your own dog.
		
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As in my above post K&L, I understand that her father believes he has both a duty and a responsibility, himself, to ensure his old, knackered friend, is given a quick and painless exit, without worry or anticipation and it is his way of thanking the dog for its faithfull service, love and friendship. 




Alec Swan said:



			We have a local lady of whom I'm very fond,  and she has two 'retired' greyhounds.  They're walked twice a day,  and as many in their prison,  they have not been let off their leads for at least two years.  The poor creatures display stress levels which I'd have thought a blind person could see.  Apparently not.  The lady concerned has owned some fairly decent syndicated 'flat' horses,  and the only deal that she'll sign up to is that when their racing days are over,  they should be sent off to heaven.  For some reason,  that doesn't apply to greyhounds.  Perhaps they're just a convenience to her,  I'm not sure.  

Alec.
		
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How do you know she doesn't have access to 3 acres of secured ' go mental bat **** crazy' area in which her dogs hoone around? or are you just jumping to conclusions? again. Please enlighten us to how the dogs display these stress levels, assuming I am both blind and have no knowledge of keeping Greyhounds. and as for saying 'perhaps they're a convenience to her' how bloody rude, do you throw into the ring, a little bone of contention deliberately in an effort to promote a response? (as it appears) or do you genuinely feel this way?  (* ducking for cover, awaiting your response)



kateandluelue said:



			I hope you never get considered 'past it', and i hope people dont use the same assessment on quality of life that you have done for hounds here tonight or you may end up with a bullet too.
		
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LOL


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## Alec Swan (1 February 2016)

G&T said:



			I can't claim to be an expert on hounds or whether they would take to being re-homed when their working lives are over - I'd imagine many wouldn't be able to adjust, and we've heard that there are cases of those who do cope. However - if a hound has no other possible use or purpose other than hunting , then what is the justification of continuing to breed them (foxhounds at least) given hunting is illegal? Dog breeding that feeds other illegal activities i.e. breeding pitbulls for dog fighting, is shut down by police. I'm interested as to why foxhounds are still allowed to be bred. Whats the point?
		
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The 'point' is that generally,  those who Hunt do so within the Law.  

Alec.


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## G&T (1 February 2016)

wench said:



			Trail hunting is not illegal which is what fox hounds are used for...
		
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The whole breeding, training etc seems such a rigmarole just to facilitate a drag hunt, which is essentially a pre-planned cross country ride so you don't actually need hounds to guide it


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## wench (1 February 2016)

G&T said:



			The whole breeding, training etc seems such a rigmarole just to facilitate a drag hunt, which is essentially a pre-planned cross country ride so you don't actually need hounds to guide it
		
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But then farmers wouldn't generally offer their land up for a jolly xc ride out if they didn't get anything out of it ie fallen stock services. 

Also if foxhounds were not bred any more, that would be a historic hound breed, that probably has the longest traceable pedigree of any type of dog, extinct


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## Alec Swan (1 February 2016)

G&T said:



			The whole breeding, training etc seems such a rigmarole just to facilitate a drag hunt, which is essentially a pre-planned cross country ride so you don't actually need hounds to guide it
		
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Clearly,  you have no understanding of 'hound work'.  Hunting,  be it for a quarry or a laid track,  is about Hounds and how they Hunt.

Alec.


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## G&T (1 February 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			The 'point' is that generally,  those who Hunt do so within the Law.  

Alec.
		
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Fair enough - I don't know much about the current hunting situation so have no reason to disagree with you. Myself, in the grand scheme of things I've never thought hunting was the cruellest thing we do to animals, so was not massively anti (although not pro either) but I do believe in the rule of law. And that means following the spirit of the law, not just the letter and finding loopholes in it


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## G&T (1 February 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			Clearly,  you have no understanding of 'hound work'.  Hunting,  be it for a quarry or a laid track,  is about Hounds and how they Hunt.

Alec.
		
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I do understand that hunting is about the hounds and how they work together and with the huntsmen and women. And those that follow the hunt so they can have a fun and exciting ride are secondary. My point is that if it's only trail hunting and/or drag hunting thats allowed, is the industry not pretty much finished? Can we still justify breeding these 'working dogs' (with associated need to cull many healthy dogs) if their only 'job' is messing about following fake trails for a bit of fun?


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## Alec Swan (1 February 2016)

chillipup said:



			&#8230;&#8230;..

How do you know she doesn't have access to 3 acres of secured ' go mental bat **** crazy' area in which her dogs hoone around? or are you just jumping to conclusions? again. 

Please enlighten us to how the dogs display these stress levels, assuming I am both blind and have no knowledge of keeping Greyhounds.

and as for saying 'perhaps they're a convenience to her' how bloody rude, do you throw into the ring, a little bone of contention deliberately in an effort to promote a response? (as it appears) or do you genuinely feel this way?  (* ducking for cover, awaiting your response)

LOL 

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She lives but 3 doors away.

If you are unable,  as most,  to recognise an animal under stress by their demeanour and body language,  then perhaps you could think before you criticise those who do.

Yes,  I certainly feel as I do.  I'm very fond of the lady concerned,  even when her bloody dogs escape and kill my livestock,  and however well intentioned she may believe that she is,  she's sadly blind to the unhappiness of her dogs.  

Alec.


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## Alec Swan (1 February 2016)

G&T said:



			&#8230;&#8230;.. if their only 'job' is messing about following fake trails for a bit of fun?
		
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If you're belief is that these hounds are only 'messing about',  then you have little in the way of understanding of what Hounds are actually about.

Alec.


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## G&T (1 February 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			If you're belief is that these hounds are only 'messing about',  then you have little in the way of understanding of what Hounds are actually about.

Alec.
		
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So what is their job? Are they providing a necessary service like a police dog or a guide dog?

I have already said I'm far from an expert on hunting with hounds. Haven't been since way back in the mists of time when I was in the pony club - and would not do it now.


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## Alec Swan (1 February 2016)

G&T said:



			So what is their job? Are they providing a necessary service like a police dog or a guide dog?

&#8230;&#8230;.. .
		
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Do you keep a dog?  If you do,  what's it's purpose in life?

Alec.


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## G&T (1 February 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			Do you keep a dog?  If you do,  what's it's purpose in life?

Alec.
		
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Yes, two small terriers. They're pets so their only purpose is companionship, they mooch around the farm and come on long walks with us. This conversation is about hounds, who have been classed as working dogs, not pets - and many including yourself have said they have no other function and do not make good pets, which I agree with. My point, in asking you what their 'job' is nowadays, is that if they are not really allowed by law to control foxes any more in any meaningful way, then their job is defunct. I guess that much like some dogs are bred for showing, they are maybe bred to keep the tradition alive and that hunting people enjoy working on their craft with the hounds. It just seems a shame in that case that they are shot at 7 as a matter of course


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## Cobbytype (1 February 2016)

I have a few genuine questions:

1) It is my understanding (correct me if I'm wrong) that young hunting hounds/dogs are sometimes foster homed for a while when they are puppies to get them used to people and to learn social skills. If an adult hound/dog cannot remember those formative weeks/months with their puppy walkers (and return to that lifestyle as and when), why is it done in the first place? 

2) I am confused as to why it is applauded when a retired or failed, but healthy race horse is given a second chance to flourish in an alternative role, yet it is seen as cruel to give a hound/dog that opportunity? The distinction seems false. The race horse has been bred for centuries to race, the hound has been bred for centuries to hunt. What is the difference? 

No-one can deny that a horse's instinct is to roam free in a herd, but of course we can't (on the whole) let them do that for obvious reasons, so it is acceptable to do the next best thing - to provide a semi-natural environment in the form of an enclosed paddock with grazing and companionship. Many horses would love that paddock gate to be left open and to run free, but to keep them safe we have to enclose them. Why is it different for a hound/dog? Why would say a large country garden with lots of room for a hound or two to run and sniff be so different to a thoroughbred's paddock?


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## LD&S (1 February 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			Clodagh,  there are those that cannot,  or will not accept your point.  A point well made nonetheless.

We have a local lady of whom I'm very fond,  and she has two 'retired' greyhounds.  They're walked twice a day,  and as many in their prison,  they have not been let off their leads for at least two years.  The poor creatures display stress levels which I'd have thought a blind person could see.  Apparently not.  The lady concerned has owned some fairly decent syndicated 'flat' horses,  and the only deal that she'll sign up to is that when their racing days are over,  they should be sent off to heaven.  For some reason,  that doesn't apply to greyhounds.  Perhaps they're just a convenience to her,  I'm not sure.  

Alec.
		
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I think maybe you forgot to tell us about the signs of stress these dogs are exhibiting that are so obvious a blind person could see.


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## Alec Swan (1 February 2016)

G&T said:



			Yes, two small terriers. They're pets so their only purpose is companionship, they mooch around the farm and come on long walks with us. ..
		
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So your two terriers provide a 'necessary service'(your words)?  Can you explain to me why Hounds shouldn't do the same?



Cobbytype said:



			I have a few genuine questions:

1) It is my understanding (correct me if I'm wrong) that young hunting hounds/dogs are sometimes foster homed for a while when they are puppies to get them used to people and to learn social skills. If an adult hound/dog cannot remember those formative weeks/months with their puppy walkers (and return to that lifestyle as and when), why is it done in the first place? 

2) I am confused as to why it is applauded when a retired or failed, but healthy race horse is given a second chance to flourish in an alternative role, yet it is seen as cruel to give a hound/dog that opportunity? The distinction seems false. The race horse has been bred for centuries to race, the hound has been bred for centuries to hunt. What is the difference? 

No-one can deny that a horse's instinct is to roam free in a herd, but of course we can't (on the whole) let them do that for obvious reasons, so it is acceptable to do the next best thing - to provide a semi-natural environment in the form of an enclosed paddock with grazing and companionship. Many horses would love that paddock gate to be left open and to run free, but to keep them safe we have to enclose them. Why is it different for a hound/dog? Why would say a large country garden with lots of room for a hound or two to run and sniff be so different to a thoroughbred's paddock?
		
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1) Hound puppies are,  as you say 'walked' and to teach them the basic skills of dealing with humans. The problem arises with walking puppies in that they are generally sent back to kennels when their natural instincts take over,  and they become unmanageable.  Hound pups will very soon become unruly and will be sent to school!  Not all of course,  but most,  if they're to be of any use!

2) The link to horses in training is interesting,  and of all the thousands which are bred every year,  VERY few settle to being happy hackers.  OK,  so the odd one will go on and Event or Hunt or find a second career,  but they're in the minority,  aren't they?  It's the training regime which is responsible.

If the large and well fenced country garden could contain a couple of retired Hounds,  then what would they do all day,  apart from dig holes,  bury bones and generally turn the place in to a tip?  Oh,  and probably wake the dead in the middle of the night whilst they voice their frustrations!  It would be a lovely idea,  but not one that would really be kind to the animal.

Alec.


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## Alec Swan (1 February 2016)

LD&S said:



			I think maybe you forgot to tell us about the signs of stress these dogs are exhibiting that are so obvious a blind person could see.
		
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Sadly, 'telling' is impossible,  it's either something which we see with our own eyes,  or we don't.  I've had others try to explain to me the finer points of ballet,  but I fail to see the emphasis which they bring.  Similarly,  and with animals which are stressed,  it's something which we either recognise,  or we don't.

Where do your abilities lay?  Could you describe them and the nuances of them to me?

Alec.


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## LD&S (1 February 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			Sadly, 'telling' is impossible,  it's either something which we see with our own eyes,  or we don't.  I've had others try to explain to me the finer points of ballet,  but I fail to see the emphasis which they bring.  Similarly,  and with animals which are stressed,  it's something which we either recognise,  or we don't.

Where do your abilities lay?  Could you describe them and the nuances of them to me?

Alec.
		
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But surely even to someone as uneducated in the ways of stressed greyhounds as me would be able to understand one or two of the finer points that you have said are so obvious. Or maybe this is yet another of your posts that when you are asked a direct question you choose to ignore it and ask a question in response.


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## Alec Swan (2 February 2016)

LD&S said:



			&#8230;&#8230;.. . Or maybe this is yet another of your posts that when you are asked a direct question you choose to ignore it and ask a question in response.
		
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The list of stress indicators,  those of which we should be aware,  are near endless.  Body Language (the dog's demeanour) matters.  Tail carriage matters.  Eye contact (or the lack of it) matters.  Panting when the dog's been for a walk but hasn't exerted itself matters.  A dog licking its lips,  sometimes matters.  Constant yawning always matters.  Self harm (often breed specific) matters.  Loose bowel movements can also be an indication of stress.  The list is endless and I've only scratched the surface.  When you travel a dog in a car and for a considerable time,  do they sleep?  Most dogs hate car travel,  surprisingly,  even though they happily jump in when asked.

Do you recognise the signs of 'stress' in a dog,  or are you simply looking for an argument?  Your turn. 

Alec.


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## Dobiegirl (2 February 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			So your two terriers provide a 'necessary service'(your words)?  Can you explain to me why Hounds shouldn't do the same?





2) The link to horses in training is interesting,  and of all the thousands which are bred every year,  VERY few settle to being happy hackers.  OK,  so the odd one will go on and Event or Hunt or find a second career,  but they're in the minority,  aren't they?  It's the training regime which is responsible.

I must take issue with you here Alec, I belong to a fb group that has thousands of members who all own ex racehorses and they would all disagree with you because their horses disprove your statement.
		
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## alliwantforchristmas (2 February 2016)

gosh, how did a thread on culling foxhounds turn into a 'downer' on retired greyhounds?  I've known several retired greyhounds - a few of my friends have had them, my uncle, and my Dad's best friend, bless him, when he was alive.  To my mind they make great companion dogs.  The only 'stress' I ever saw was one who had separation distress when left, that one was my friend's dog, and she just went and got another greyhound - problem solved!  (She was never leaving them for a long time, only for a couple of hours as she is semi-retired and works from home).  They are total comfort lovers and seem very affectionate to their owners, and the ones I've seen are easy and well-mannered to walk on the lead.  I think you've got to be sensible and responsible about whether you let them off lead or not, and where, but that's the same with all dogs.


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## Alec Swan (2 February 2016)

Dobiegirl said:





Alec Swan said:



			&#8230;&#8230;..

2) The link to horses in training is interesting,  and of all the thousands which are bred every year,  VERY few settle to being happy hackers.  OK,  so the odd one will go on and Event or Hunt or find a second career,  but they're in the minority,  aren't they?  It's the training regime which is responsible.

I must take issue with you here Alec, I belong to a fb group that has thousands of members who all own ex racehorses and they would all disagree with you because their horses disprove your statement.
		
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Considering the number of Flat Bred TBs bred annually,  the level of rehabilitation,  and in to an ordinary ridden life,  is in single figures as a percentage.  I'll stand by that.  The bulk are put down when their racing days are over,  and it's only because of their training regimes,  I feel (almost) certain!  I applaud those who take them on and make a success of them,  but those with the necessary skills are few and far between.  Do you agree,  or do you consider that in the main most F/B horses will go on to second careers?

I'll accept that there will be those (few) NH horses which will go off hunting,  but they'll be few and far between.

Alec.
		
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## Alec Swan (2 February 2016)

alliwantforchristmas said:



			&#8230;&#8230;. .  The only 'stress' I ever saw was one who had separation distress when left, &#8230;&#8230;.. .
		
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The indications that a dog is 'stressed' are all so often far more subtle than the indicator displayed by separation.  It's all so often (and mostly) in their displays of how they deal with us.

Alec.


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## Dobiegirl (2 February 2016)

Most of them are flat bred Alec and Im just amazed at how chilled some of them are, some of them do ROR classes but they are happy hackers too.


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## LD&S (2 February 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			The list of stress indicators,  those of which we should be aware,  are near endless.  Body Language (the dog's demeanour) matters.  Tail carriage matters.  Eye contact (or the lack of it) matters.  Panting when the dog's been for a walk but hasn't exerted itself matters.  A dog licking its lips,  sometimes matters.  Constant yawning always matters.  Self harm (often breed specific) matters.  Loose bowel movements can also be an indication of stress.  The list is endless and I've only scratched the surface.  When you travel a dog in a car and for a considerable time,  do they sleep?  Most dogs hate car travel,  surprisingly,  even though they happily jump in when asked.

Do you recognise the signs of 'stress' in a dog,  or are you simply looking for an argument?  Your turn. 

Alec.
		
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No not looking for an argument at all, just curious. 
Yes I can recognise stress in a dog, especially my own that had the misfortune to be bred for greyhound racing, one of them was definitely abused by people, the other maybe not but still carries mental scars.


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## chillipup (2 February 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			She lives but 3 doors away.

If you are unable,  as most,  to recognise an animal under stress by their demeanour and body language,  then perhaps you could think before you criticise those who do.

Yes,  I certainly feel as I do.  I'm very fond of the lady concerned,  even when her bloody dogs escape and kill my livestock,  and however well intentioned she may believe that she is,  she's sadly blind to the unhappiness of her dogs.  

Alec.
		
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Yet again, Alec, you fail to answer a very simple and legitimate question. I'm asking, as a member of, as you describe, those that are 'unable, as most', unable to recognise the signs of an animal under stress by their demeanor and body language or indeed 'unhappiness' So please explain.. how do I tell ?....please describe what it is that they show. I'm not criticising, I'm asking for your explaination, to assist me and others, from an experts perspective, what it is we should be looking for.


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## OwnedbyJoe (2 February 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			I agree with you,  except that you've missed out one vital aspect of the life of a Hound;  They are bred for just one purpose,  and when they're denied that,  and in old age especially so,  the frustration for them must be dreadful.

Alec.
		
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Oh dear... My 2 Kelpies with their very strong drive to work sheep and my JRT with her very strong drive to hunt rats must suffer dreadfully then. Not sure anyone has told them they are suffering though as they seem quite content with a ball..


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## OwnedbyJoe (2 February 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			Generally the first sign of a stressed dog.

Alec.
		
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What...??! Sorry Alec, you are now officially on the "spouts rubbish" list! (Speaking as a vet with a special interest in behaviour and the daughter of a very prominent dog trainer). I'd suggest the only time not wanting to go for a walk is the sign of a stressed dog is when it is the WALK that stresses it...


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## Sandstone1 (2 February 2016)

Most pure breed dogs were originally bred for a purpose though. Be that herding, garding or hunting etc.
A small percentage of them will actually be doing that job. Most will be pets.
Collies for instance, yes some of them will be farm dogs, herding sheep or cattle, but many more will be family pets.
I've never understood why foxhounds can not be kept as pets, but beagles and basset hounds can be.


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## Dry Rot (2 February 2016)

There was a feature article in one of the country glossies not that long ago extolling the virtues of English setters as pets and saying how rare they had become. The article, as I recall, was mostly orientated towards promoting the breed as a working gundog.

But there are as many variations in specific gundog breeds that it is dangerous to generalise. The strain of working English setters I had were powerful workers. I would not boter to own one from a pet strain. Once they realised there was game out there, they became paranoid and if they got out, they'd be off hunting -- not just for an hour or two, but for the rest of the day! They would do anything to escape and could not even be trusted at exercise. A previous professional breeder used to sell puppies to pet homes on the clear understanding that he'd buy them back if they proved unsuitable for the same price. That way we got a lot of pups nicely reared and socialised ready for training at no cost! They were definitely not pet material! He'd then introduce them to game, export the ones that worked, and shoot the rest. That was back in the 40's and 50's and most of them went to the USA.

I'd suggest that that applies to a lot of working breeds. Some strains of working sheepdog, for example, become so frustrated in pet homes that they start working anything. There is at least one case on record of a dog that would herd chldren into a corner and then sit and guard them. If they moved, they'd be treated as a working dog would handle escaping sheep!

Yes, sometimes it can work. But it is plain stupidity to suggest that all working dogs make good pets and will happily integrate into the family home. It is not just the dog that will become stressed!


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## Alec Swan (2 February 2016)

OwnedbyJoe said:



			What...??! Sorry Alec, you are now officially on the "spouts rubbish" list! (Speaking as a vet with a special interest in behaviour and the daughter of a very prominent dog trainer). I'd suggest the only time not wanting to go for a walk is the sign of a stressed dog is when it is the WALK that stresses it...
		
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Apart from wondering which side of the bed you got out of this morning,  and why you need to be quite so aggressive,  I'm also a little confused as to why you also seem to agree with my point!  It remains my view that we need to be able to recognise stress,  and the reason for it.  What trips one dog's stress levels won't another,  a bit like humans I suppose! 

Alec.


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## Goldenstar (2 February 2016)

selinas spirit said:



			Most pure breed dogs were originally bred for a purpose though. Be that herding, garding or hunting etc.
A small percentage of them will actually be doing that job. Most will be pets.
Collies for instance, yes some of them will be farm dogs, herding sheep or cattle, but many more will be family pets.
I've never understood why foxhounds can not be kept as pets, but beagles and basset hounds can be.[/QUOTE

After a life spent in the company of your pack sleeping in a huge heap eating in a huge group exercising in a huge group enjoying a huge amount of exercise it would be unpleasant to except a dog to live the restricted lives in terms of company that most dogs lead .
Taking on an adult large exceptionally strong dog with no idea that you don't  jump on the kitchen table whose whole life and training is about the pack is not my idea of fun.
I do think a foxhound puppy could be trained to live a 'domestic ' life as long as you had a great plan on how you where cope with it following it's nose and you liked walking several hours a day .
My neighbours have pet beagles what a miserable time they have they howl when the family go out and can never be off the lead they escape at every opportunity and cause mayhem  .   
Those dogs are not happy pets .
		
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## popsdosh (2 February 2016)

chillipup said:



			Of



Of course it's legal! Unlike a free fire bullet firearm, the risk, in perhaps a built up area, over concrete/hard ground blah de blah, a captive bolt is both legal and preferred, due to safety reasons (possible ricochet) However, it is necessary to 'pith' the animal immediately, which they do. From what I recall from being reliably informed, they carry both a captive bolt and free fire bullet gun.












LOL 

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I really think sometimes you just trawl through post and pick them to bits as a means of sport.
Some of us have more hands on experience and training

You do talk some total twaddle for somebody who professes to know my point was exactly the point that it is not legal within europe to use a captive bolt gun as a means of killing an animal. you can only use it to stun pre slaughter which is achieved by either severing major blood vessels or indeed pithing. I am sure the RSPCA would be very proactive in upholding that law so why state they had killed the dogs with captive bolt guns as you would need the dog under the same degree of control as you would to inject it so why did they not do that?

I would seriously love to know how many RSPCA officers carry free bullet pistols within the UK, I know the answer to that one however please go to them and ask.In all cases where a free bullet is needed they will call in either the police or specialist ie knackermen, Hunt (yes Hunt) or deer control experts.
I am indeed on this list for this area. I have yet to meet any RSPCA officers who are licenced to carry firearms. Its just what this country needs little white vans driving around for every criminal to know come and get you weapon here, get real! 

However enough said as I am sure ive fabricated the lot of it so im sure you will put everybody else right on how things happen in Lala land.


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## Wagtail (2 February 2016)

Alec Swan said:





Dobiegirl said:



			Considering the number of Flat Bred TBs bred annually,  the level of rehabilitation,  and in to an ordinary ridden life,  is in single figures as a percentage.  I'll stand by that.  The bulk are put down when their racing days are over,  and it's only because of their training regimes,  I feel (almost) certain!  I applaud those who take them on and make a success of them,  but those with the necessary skills are few and far between.  Do you agree,  or do you consider that in the main most F/B horses will go on to second careers?

I'll accept that there will be those (few) NH horses which will go off hunting,  but they'll be few and far between.

Alec.
		
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I have retrained many ex racehorses straight from the track. With the exception of one, they have been no different to your average WB, or ISH and most of them went to hacking or riding club level homes. I had one for many years that was my main hacking horse. He was the best hack I have ever had. Safe, fearless and fun.
		
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## Alec Swan (2 February 2016)

selinas spirit said:



			&#8230;&#8230;..

I've never understood why foxhounds can not be kept as pets, but beagles and basset hounds can be.
		
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It would probably be that those Beagles and Bassets which are in pet homes have been bred and for many generations as just that,  pets.  Were we to take a Beagle from a pack of hunted hounds,  the likely result would probably have them as rooted to their 'immediate' past as most foxhounds would be.  Just as with many of the guarding breeds,  which have been bred,  not to fulfil their previous roll but to be intended as pets.  

Collies can be something of an anomaly in that there are many which are bred to work but show absolutely no interest in livestock at all and conversely,  those which for generations have been bred as pets but which show a marked and natural herding instinct.

Alec.


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## Goldenstar (2 February 2016)

Alec Swan said:





Dobiegirl said:



			Considering the number of Flat Bred TBs bred annually,  the level of rehabilitation,  and in to an ordinary ridden life,  is in single figures as a percentage.  I'll stand by that.  The bulk are put down when their racing days are over,  and it's only because of their training regimes,  I feel (almost) certain!  I applaud those who take them on and make a success of them,  but those with the necessary skills are few and far between.  Do you agree,  or do you consider that in the main most F/B horses will go on to second careers?

I'll accept that there will be those (few) NH horses which will go off hunting,  but they'll be few and far between.

Alec.
		
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 I had several TB's over my horsey career I have one now he's the classic failed racehorse out of a successful hurdler by a flat stallion he was bred with NH in mind .
He was nappy and tricky but he's a lovely talented horse I like to think he's done a good job in his second career but he had two advantages he was on a good trainers yard and they admitted defeat and got him off to a suitable person to oversee his second shot at being useful and this is the big one he was sound .
So many of the issues with TB's are driven by the fact people are labouring on with horses with undiagnosed major issues .
		
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## popsdosh (2 February 2016)

Wagtail said:



			I have retrained many ex racehorses straight from the track. With the exception of one, they have been no different to your average WB, or ISH and most of them went to hacking or riding club level homes. I had one for many years that was my main hacking horse. He was the best hack I have ever had. Safe, fearless and fun.
		
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I am not saying this to start an argument ,however on the whole only the horses the trainers think will be re trainable ever get offered out of racing and sadly this is a low percentage so the fact your success rate is high is not what could be achieved with the overall racing population.


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## ycbm (2 February 2016)

popsdosh said:



			I am not saying this to start an argument ,however on the whole only the horses the trainers think will be re trainable ever get offered out of racing and sadly this is a low percentage so the fact your success rate is high is not what could be achieved with the overall racing population.
		
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Sorry popsdosh but this isn't right. I've bought most of my ex racers straight off the track, still racing fit, some wearing plates, from the auctions. They all resold as general riding horses. Though one was a bit sharp and I was careful who she went to.

The trainers don't make the decision what happens to them. If the owner wants his money even the total nutters would go to auction. The 'sharp' one I bought had history of dumping her jockey before the start, and was certainly a handful to retrain, but we got there.

Alec, the reason so many are slaughtered is because the market for ex racers is dire and people like me have given up retraining them because we can't get enough money to justify the time and cost. There is a real prejudice against them, which is fuelled by people like you who don't know what good horses they make.

Before the days of passports, half the 'ID crosses' sold by dodgy dealers were OTTBs.


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## ycbm (2 February 2016)

You do talk some total twaddle for somebody who professes to know my point was exactly the point that it is not legal within europe to use a captive bolt gun as a means of killing an animal. you can only use it to stun pre slaughter which is achieved by either severing major blood vessels or indeed pithing.
		
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Well you are either talking twaddle yourself or splitting hairs  Popsdosh. How can it be illegal to kill an animal using a captive bolt gun if it does not kill the animal?

Yes, you need to pith to ensure brain destruction. But it really is splitting hairs to argue with someone who says that dogs are killed with a captive bolt gun. I've had two horses done with one and pithed and both were good clean deaths.


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## popsdosh (2 February 2016)

ycbm said:



			Well you are either talking twaddle yourself or splitting hairs  Popsdosh. How can it be illegal to kill an animal using a captive bolt gun if it does not kill the animal?

Yes, you need to pith to ensure brain destruction. But it really is splitting hairs to argue with someone who says that dogs are killed with a captive bolt gun. I've had two horses done with one and pithed and both were good clean deaths.
		
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My initial point was the legality of using captive bolt to kill it(they are not designed to kill) cannot be used on its own as you are obviously aware .The obvious point from there was why did they not inject a dog as you need the same degree of control to effectively use a captive bolt gun. It was not me who was splitting hairs but those who said it was legal.
 Did I get the firearms bit right maybe? So predictable its getting boring!


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## Wagtail (2 February 2016)

OwnedbyJoe said:



			Oh dear... My 2 Kelpies with their very strong drive to work sheep and my JRT with her very strong drive to hunt rats must suffer dreadfully then. Not sure anyone has told them they are suffering though as they seem quite content with a ball..
		
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Or a balloon in the case of one of my JRTs


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## Wagtail (2 February 2016)

popsdosh said:



			I am not saying this to start an argument ,however on the whole only the horses the trainers think will be re trainable ever get offered out of racing and sadly this is a low percentage so the fact your success rate is high is not what could be achieved with the overall racing population.
		
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Not true. How many ex racers have you trained? I have trained tens, some for myself, most for other people. I have sourced some direct from trainers, some from my friend who owns a large number of flat racers, some from people who have failed miserably to rehab them, and a couple straight from the field. Out of all of them, only one proved impossible to bring on as a regular riding horse (or a riding horse _ at all_ for that matter).

Incidentally, the best hacking horse I have ever had came straight out of steeple chasing aged 11. He was the trickiest to retrain, but turned out to be a fantastic happy hacker who could also do a nice dressage test.


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## popsdosh (2 February 2016)

Wagtail said:



			Not true. How many ex racers have you trained? I have trained tens, some for myself, most for other people. I have sourced some direct from trainers, some from my friend who owns a large number of flat racers, some from people who have failed miserably to rehab them, and a couple straight from the field. Out of all of them, only one proved impossible to bring on as a regular riding horse (or a riding horse _ at all_ for that matter).

Incidentally, the best hacking horse I have ever had came straight out of steeple chasing aged 11. He was the trickiest to retrain, but turned out to be a fantastic happy hacker who could also do a nice dressage test.
		
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I think you miss the point a lot of trainers are selective of what goes on to a second career there are many they know are unsuitable . Yes some owners do insist on sending them to the sales thats their choice however thats often the worse thing for that particular horse. How many times do we see the horror stories. 
By the way as we used to breed TBs that we raced ourselves we have have had maybe a hundred(not all ours) over the years we have found other homes for some are still out there doing things ,however knowing our horses we know know the ones that can have a useful second career and those that wont ever settle. Some of those are still here doing the lawnmowing its probably 50-50


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## alliwantforchristmas (2 February 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			The indications that a dog is 'stressed' are all so often far more subtle than the indicator displayed by separation.  It's all so often (and mostly) in their displays of how they deal with us.

Alec.
		
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yes, I know ... I'm actually very familiar with dog body language and stress signals.  I can assure you that these dogs were relaxed and happy animals, with a good quality of life who made their owners very happy.  They showed no stress or anxiety in the house (the small body language signs such as tongue flicks, whale eye, yawning, "shake offs", low level avoidance or displacement behaviours).  Their appetite was good, and they would engage in basic enrichment activities such as sniff and search games for food.  They showed no fear on a walk - one had to be trained to pass dogs calmly as he was attacked by another dog at one point and started to show fear aggression, but with the use of a good dog trainer this was resolved positively and the dog is still, to this day, walked along the canal bank by both the owner and her dog walker, passing other dogs without fear or frustration.  They all enjoyed good, loving relationships with their owners, interacting positively with them and showing engagment and, as previously mentioned, adored comfort and were relaxed and peaceful companions.  The separation distress behaviour had very obvious triggers and was swiftly rectified with the re-homing of another greyhound to the same household.  I think you need to take credit for the fact that it might just be that people other than yourself know things about dogs and dog behaviour.  I find it very rude that you said of greyhounds "these, like many in their prison".  Many of these dogs have excellent homes and if it wasn't for the energy and hard work of the people involved in rehoming these dogs they would be consigned to the scrap heap after a few races, in the majority of cases.  Not everyone views animals as a disposable commodity the way that you seem to.  Just because the way your neighbour keeps her dogs doesn't agree with you doesn't mean that greyhounds suffer in rehoming situations.   If they are killing your stock you have every right to be annoyed, but then you need to speak to the neighbour, and not just tar all greyhounds and their owners with the same brush - and that would be the same for all dogs who are allowed to be out of control, not just greyhounds.  

I'm not going to say much about the retraining of tbs but I should think that the percentage of horses successfully retrained is so low because the sheer amount of horses that are bred is so high that it would be impossible to find homes for all of them and so there is automatic 'wastage' in the industry.  A truer picture would emerge if one knew the number of tbs taken for re-training each year and how successful that re-training was - with success being measured by a criteria such as 'whether the horse could engage in a productive activity be it hacking, riding club activities, or competition'.  Again, I take my hat off to anyone who can give these horses another chance at a useful life and the opportunity to end up in a good home.  We know it doesn't happen for all tbs, but then neither does it always work out wonderfully for any other breed of horse.


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## popsdosh (2 February 2016)

alliwantforchristmas said:



			I'm not going to say much about the retraining of tbs but I should think that the percentage of horses successfully retrained is so low because the sheer amount of horses that are bred is so high that it would be impossible to find homes for all of them and so there is automatic 'wastage' in the industry.  A truer picture would emerge if one knew the number of tbs taken for re-training each year and how successful that re-training was - with success being measured by a criteria such as 'whether the horse could engage in a productive activity be it hacking, riding club activities, or competition'.  Again, I take my hat off to anyone who can give these horses another chance at a useful life and the opportunity to end up in a good home.  We know it doesn't happen for all tbs, but then neither does it always work out wonderfully for any other breed of horse.
		
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That would only be a legitimate comparison if many of those going into the rehab system were not screened before they start. Godolphin have a very good rehab(PR) set up however the numbers they actual select as suitable is a small percentage of the horses in training . To get a fair picture of the percentage that can be retrained you need to take a representative sample for retraining from all racehorses.

The real sad thing for those that the owner decides to auction at all cost ,is they make so little money and end up in the hands of muppets who dont know what they are doing because its cheap way to get a horse. Before I get jumped on I dont mean those who know what they are doing and are prepared to take the risk.


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## Wagtail (2 February 2016)

popsdosh said:



			I think you miss the point a lot of trainers are selective of what goes on to a second career there are many they know are unsuitable . Yes some owners do insist on sending them to the sales thats their choice however thats often the worse thing for that particular horse. How many times do we see the horror stories. 
By the way as we used to breed TBs that we raced ourselves we have have had maybe a hundred(not all ours) over the years we have found other homes for some are still out there doing things ,however knowing our horses we know know the ones that can have a useful second career and those that wont ever settle. Some of those are still here doing the lawnmowing its probably 50-50
		
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I really do think that virtually every ex-racer can be retrained to be a normal riding horse. With due respect, most people in the racing industry (including my friend) would have no idea how to retrain a racehorse to do normal riding activities as they are so different from racing, just as I would have little idea of how to train a racehorse. Who's to say that those horses that trainers deem to be unsuitable may just be that way because they don't like the racing regime? They may be totally different in a more relaxed, laid back atmosphere.


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## popsdosh (2 February 2016)

Wagtail said:



			I really do think that virtually every ex-racer can be retrained to be a normal riding horse. With due respect, most people in the racing industry (including my friend) would have no idea how to retrain a racehorse to do normal riding activities as they are so different from racing, just as I would have little idea of how to train a racehorse. Who's to say that those horses that trainers deem to be unsuitable may just be that way because they don't like the racing regime? They may be totally different in a more relaxed, laid back atmosphere.
		
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So what do you do if your a trainer who knows your horses.Quite rightly they are selective and most know if they will be better off in a quieter environment. Do you just let them go to anybody because they might ? be better. I still say about 50% of a cross sample(not just those selected) of horses off the track could be rehabbed by an average competent rider.


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## Wagtail (2 February 2016)

popsdosh said:



			So what do you do if your a trainer who knows your horses.Quite rightly they are selective and most know if they will be better off in a quieter environment. Do you just let them go to anybody because they might ? be better. I still say about 50% of a cross sample(not just those selected) of horses off the track could be rehabbed by an average competent rider.
		
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Most think they know. But until you put a horse into an environment, you do not know for certain how they will react. I am constantly being surprised. Often the most flighty horse you'd expect to freak out at something doesn't and the one you least expect has a hissy fit. That's horses.

I have often had new liveries tell me their horse can be a nightmare to settle and to expect trouble for the first few weeks, then they arrive and they are as calm as anything and I have no trouble at all. Some of it's down to the atmosphere in a place and the handling.


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## alliwantforchristmas (2 February 2016)

popsdosh said:



			That would only be a legitimate comparison if many of those going into the rehab system were not screened before they start. Godolphin have a very good rehab(PR) set up however the numbers they actual select as suitable is a small percentage of the horses in training . To get a fair picture of the percentage that can be retrained you need to take a representative sample for retraining from all racehorses.

The real sad thing for those that the owner decides to auction at all cost ,is they make so little money and end up in the hands of muppets who dont know what they are doing because its cheap way to get a horse. Before I get jumped on I dont mean those who know what they are doing and are prepared to take the risk.
		
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Do you mean that owners decide to auction even if the trainer doesn't think it's a good idea?  Because if that is the case, there's your representative sample.  Anyway, even if 50% can be rehomed successfully, or more with careful screening, it is a good percentage and means it's worth doing, rather than just writing them off like some posters on here seem to think is ok.


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## popsdosh (2 February 2016)

Wagtail said:



			Most think they know. But until you put a horse into an environment, you do not know for certain how they will react. I am constantly being surprised. Often the most flighty horse you'd expect to freak out at something doesn't and the one you least expect has a hissy fit. That's horses.
		
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Yes indeed! However I hope you will agree its about risk management where the horse comes first. Knowing who is having them is part of that.


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## popsdosh (2 February 2016)

alliwantforchristmas said:



			Do you mean that owners decide to auction even if the trainer doesn't think it's a good idea?  Because if that is the case, there's your representative sample.  Anyway, even if 50% can be rehomed successfully, or more with careful screening, it is a good percentage and means it's worth doing, rather than just writing them off like some posters on here seem to think is ok.
		
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Yes of course they do owners do all sorts of things trainers dont think is a good idea most famously KS and his dressage career! Not many would say the trainer was wrong.
As you pointed out are there really enough capable homes!! to take that number of horses so trainers need to be selective and make a judgement on those that have the best chance . I personally believe every horse should have its best chance ! however its a judgement call of whats best for the horses long term future!


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## alliwantforchristmas (2 February 2016)

popsdosh said:



			Yes of course they do owners do all sorts of things trainers dont think is a good idea most famously KS and his dressage career!
As you pointed out are there really enough capable homes!! to take that number of horses so trainers need to be selective and make a judgement on those that have the best chance . I personally believe every horse should have its best chance ! however its a judgement call of whats best for the horses long term future!
		
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totally agree - (I guess you mean there aren't enough capable homes).  Even if ALL the horses were deemed suitable for rehoming, they would simply flood an already saturated market and have more horses ending up in a mess.


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## ycbm (2 February 2016)

popsdosh said:



			So what do you do if your a trainer who knows your horses.Quite rightly they are selective and most know if they will be better off in a quieter environment. Do you just let them go to anybody because they might ? be better. I still say about 50% of a cross sample(not just those selected) of horses off the track could be rehabbed by an average competent rider.
		
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You do what the owner tells you to do.If he wants it sold, it's sold.


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## ycbm (2 February 2016)

popsdosh said:



			My initial point was the legality of using captive bolt to kill it(they are not designed to kill) cannot be used on its own as you are obviously aware .The obvious point from there was why did they not inject a dog as you need the same degree of control to effectively use a captive bolt gun. It was not me who was splitting hairs but those who said it was legal.
 Did I get the firearms bit right maybe? So predictable its getting boring!
		
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Why would a dog prefer to be injected, which at a vets means shaving the leg and forcing the dog to hold still while a needle is inserted into a vein, than to be stunned with a bolt?

Why do you think a dog needs more restraint to shoot with a bolt than with a bullet? Since there's no risk to the handler from a stay bullet, I think it's probably less.


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## ycbm (2 February 2016)

Is anyone else peeing themselves laughing at people who've never trained an ex racer in their lives telling those of us who've done dozens between us that it can't be done?


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## popsdosh (2 February 2016)

ycbm said:



			Why would a dog prefer to be injected, which at a vets means shaving the leg and forcing the dog to hold still while a needle is inserted into a vein, than to be stunned with a bolt?
		
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Still needs to be held still the use a bolt gun!  Both are legitimate ways however the bolt gun would be by far the less common personally free bullet would beat both but thats my opinion.


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## ycbm (2 February 2016)

popsdosh said:



			Still needs to be held still the use a bolt gun!  Both are legitimate ways however the bolt gun would be by far the less common personally free bullet would beat both but thats my opinion.
		
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It was not in dispute that they need to be held. Your question was why they did not inject, with your inference being that injection would be better. There's a world of difference between getting a dog to hold his head still and hanging onto his arm to shave it and then get a needle into a vein while he desperately tries to get it away from you.


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## Alec Swan (2 February 2016)

Wagtail,  Goldenstar and all those who've taken horses out of training;  at no point have I or others used the word 'Never'.  OF COURSE there are those hoses which can have their previous mindset altered,  and they can become useful horses which are to be enjoyed,  but and it's a HUGE but,  the knowledge and experience which is needed is a rare commodity!  The number of horses which I see which have come out of racing and simply stand around doing nothing,  are most certainly in the majority.

Quiet genuinely,  I take my hat of to those of you who manage such potentially difficult horses,  but would you honestly say that the bulk of those animals are 'honestly' suitable,  and as a project,  for those who simply don't have either your experience or commitment?  Far too many horses out of training end up in the wrong hands,  and as popsdosh has said,  KS was a shambolic and shameful episode,  but that's an aside!

Now to Captive Bolt Guns;  I wonder just how many have used them.  I have,  extensively though that will probably be of little importance to some!  The process is that a blank firing RF cartridge is used to drive forward an app. 10mm steel bolt,  and in to the brain of the animal.  With the shot placed correctly,  there is absolutely no chance of a return to a conscious state,  NONE.  With an animal which has its brain effectively scrambled,  the heart continues to pump and allows the slaughterman to bleed the animal.  A free bullet works in exactly the same manner,  but the difference is that within confined spaces,  the danger of an animal turning its head at the last moment,  and an exiting bullet bouncing around the walls,  is why they're rarely used 'indoors'.  The word 'Stun' is a misnomer when applied to CB pistols.  The only true stunning is performed either by electric shock,  in the case of commercially killed sheep and pigs,  or in what's called a 'knocker',  which is in effect a hammer effect delivered,  generally by pneumatic means,  and both would be recoverable.  Again,  a Captive Bolt Pistol is non-recovarable,  when used correctly.

Within the slaughter system,  both cattle and horses are generally 'pithed'.  Pithing is the process of passing a rod of some sort through the hole in the skull and down,  in to and along,  the spinal column.  The effect of 'pithing'  is to deaden any likely spinal reactions which can have the animal make involuntary kicks and so put the slaughterman at risk.  Once pithed,  the bleeding-out can begin and whilst,  importantly,  the heart is still beating.

A bit of a gooey subject,  I accept,  but if the process is clearly understood,  so the misconceptions may be avoided.

Alec.


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## gunnergundog (2 February 2016)

ycbm said:



			It was not in dispute that they need to be held. Your question was why they did not inject, with your inference being that injection would be better. There's a world of difference between getting a dog to hold his head still and hanging onto his arm to shave it and then get a needle into a vein while he desperately tries to get it away from you.
		
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....that is of course assuming that a vein that hasn't collapsed can be found in the first place.  Not always so easy in an oldie that is on his way out.


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## Wagtail (2 February 2016)

ycbm said:



			Is anyone else peeing themselves laughing at people who've never trained an ex racer in their lives telling those of us who've done dozens between us that it can't be done?
		
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 but don't you know, ycbm, that a racehorse is a completely different species to normal horses!


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## Wagtail (2 February 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			Wagtail,  Goldenstar and all those who've taken horses out of training;  at no point have I or others used the word 'Never'.  OF COURSE there are those hoses which can have their previous mindset altered,  and they can become useful horses which are to be enjoyed,  but and it's a HUGE but,  the knowledge and experience which is needed is a rare commodity!  The number of horses which I see which have come out of racing and simply stand around doing nothing,  are most certainly in the majority.

Quiet genuinely,  I take my hat of to those of you who manage such potentially difficult horses,  but would you honestly say that the bulk of those animals are 'honestly' suitable,  and as a project,  for those who simply don't have either your experience or commitment?  Far too many horses out of training end up in the wrong hands,  and as popsdosh has said,  KS was a shambolic and shameful episode,  but that's an aside!

Alec.
		
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As I said above, Alex, they are a completely different species to normal horses 

On a serious note, I retrained my first ex-racer in my early twenties. Even though I had ridden since I was eight, I was a complete novice at training horses. I was nothing special or a rare commodity. Just a confident young rider with a 'sticky' seat. Obviously, I learned more as I progressed, but I would say many capable novices could take on an ex-racer with success. Many others could not, of course, but the people who can, and do are not anywhere as rare as you seem to think. Those of us who have retrained ex-racers all know, that on the contrary to being difficult, they have the best manners, are usually unphased by hacking out, or travelling, or big crowds with lots of other horses milling about. I'd rather take an ex-racer to a show than most pleasure horses.


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## Peter7917 (2 February 2016)

I do feel there is a big difference between a foxhound and a greyhound. A foxhound does hours upon hours of exercise, a greyhound gets exercised much of the time on a lead and when he is allowed to sprint he does it for a relatively short time. 

That said I do feel it cruel to never allow a greyhound to run. I have no issue with the rehoming of racing greyhounds but they should have access to an area where they can play zoomies.


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## {97702} (2 February 2016)

Peter7917 said:



			I do feel there is a big difference between a foxhound and a greyhound. A foxhound does hours upon hours of exercise, a greyhound gets exercised much of the time on a lead and when he is allowed to sprint he does it for a relatively short time. 

That said I do feel it cruel to never allow a greyhound to run. I have no issue with the rehoming of racing greyhounds but they should have access to an area where they can play zoomies.
		
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I refer you to my earlier comments on this thread - some ex racing greyhounds don't want to "play zoomies" even when they get the chance  it is a common misconception that greyhounds need to run, but they really don't.


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## YorksG (2 February 2016)

Surely any dog should be part of a  pack? Hounds live in packs, the idea of them being "rehomed" away from the pack they have grown up in, sounds horrendous imo. When they are drafted into other packs, they at least have the familiarity of "the job", to be rehomed into a family home sounds like a recipe for disaster to me, both for the hound and the family. I don't agree with "only dogs" regardless of their origin, but hounds deprived of their social interactions sounds cruel to me.


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## KautoStar1 (2 February 2016)

kateandluelue said:



			Haha brilliant! He is a dog expert you know. He confirmed it tonight with his thorough assessment of hounds and their needs. No working dog can lead a non working life. Alec 'Cesar' Swan has confirmed it.
		
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to be fair, Alec has spent his whole life training and working with 'working' dogs, so he does know what he is talking about.


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## Dobiegirl (2 February 2016)

KautoStar1 said:



			to be fair, Alec has spent his whole life training and working with 'working' dogs, so he does know what he is talking about.
		
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I dont doubt that but he does have a habit of spouting off about things he has little knowledge of such as ex racehorses becoming happy hackers etc and also rescue dogs, just because he knew of a few that had problems he is tarring all rescue dogs with problems. 

I also know  loads of ex greyhounds who are couch potatoes, they show no  stress, do not display calming signals to calm themselves down, love the odd hoon but will knock you over for the best seat by the fire and have to be dragged out for a walk.


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## applecart14 (2 February 2016)

My partners old beagle that was pts last year was only a couple of months old when it was evident she was not going to make the height she needed to be, she was 2" too short at the shoulder to run with the pack, and was therefore going to be shot. 

Luckily the kennel man was my partners old boss and he rang my partner to see if he wanted the dog as he knew my partner had recently got divorced and was lonely living on his own. He lived on 250 acres so he had a brilliant home to offer her. So my partner and his kids who were only young then drove down and picked her up from the kennels.  He ended up having 14 happy years with her. She was a brilliant dog, and used to 'speak' when she got on the scent. Most regulars who visited the riding club knew Candy, she had a lot of people who used to make a fuss of her and was much loved by all. She had a brilliant life, and used to wander round the huge garden we had the last few years and actually used to wait for her friend the fox that used to visit the field by the mobile and would go and play with it as it grew dusk.

We now have a wonderful rescue beagle from Beagle Welfare, but  I wonder how many of those are rehomed from hunt kennels?


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## pennyturner (2 February 2016)

Dry Rot said:



			There was a feature article in one of the country glossies not that long ago extolling the virtues of English setters as pets and saying how rare they had become. The article, as I recall, was mostly orientated towards promoting the breed as a working gundog.

But there are as many variations in specific gundog breeds that it is dangerous to generalise. The strain of working English setters I had were powerful workers. I would not boter to own one from a pet strain. Once they realised there was game out there, they became paranoid and if they got out, they'd be off hunting -- not just for an hour or two, but for the rest of the day! They would do anything to escape and could not even be trusted at exercise. A previous professional breeder used to sell puppies to pet homes on the clear understanding that he'd buy them back if they proved unsuitable for the same price. That way we got a lot of pups nicely reared and socialised ready for training at no cost! They were definitely not pet material! He'd then introduce them to game, export the ones that worked, and shoot the rest. That was back in the 40's and 50's and most of them went to the USA.

I'd suggest that that applies to a lot of working breeds. Some strains of working sheepdog, for example, become so frustrated in pet homes that they start working anything. There is at least one case on record of a dog that would herd chldren into a corner and then sit and guard them. If they moved, they'd be treated as a working dog would handle escaping sheep!

Yes, sometimes it can work. But it is plain stupidity to suggest that all working dogs make good pets and will happily integrate into the family home. It is not just the dog that will become stressed!
		
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I have a Llewellyn type English Setter, and cannot recommend your post enough.  She came to us from rescue at 6mths old, and I thought I knew dogs... ha!  That animal can find the only pigeon in 1000 acres in 3 minutes, no matter what the distraction (ignores people, dogs, food, guns - only fur and feathers matter).  She rid our lawn of moles by 'setting' for hours until one moved, and diving through the ground to get them.

For a while I despaired of keeping her from escaping  - I've seen her jump a 12ft wall, and she opens doors both ways!  No way was she an appropriate pet, although she would obey arm signals at half a mile distance (even from horseback), if she thought we were 'hunting' together.

She's now 10, and for the last couple of years has been a lovely, amenable house dog... but she still nips over the 4ft stock fence to hunt rabbits in the hedgerow for a couple of hours every day!


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## fburton (2 February 2016)

stormox said:



			... Huntsmen are also trained in stitching wounds, as pack hounds fight occasionally, or get injured by wire, or muntjacks. A huntsman is a true professional, good at his job, which is so much more than just controlling hounds when out hunting.
		
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Do the huntsmen who stitch wounds have a special dispensation to do so? I thought it was only vets who could perform such surgery on animals. Just curious.


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## KautoStar1 (2 February 2016)

Dobiegirl said:



			I dont doubt that but he does have a habit of spouting off about things he has little knowledge of such as ex racehorses becoming happy hackers etc and also rescue dogs, just because he knew of a few that had problems he is tarring all rescue dogs with problems. 

I also know  loads of ex greyhounds who are couch potatoes, they show no  stress, do not display calming signals to calm themselves down, love the odd hoon but will knock you over for the best seat by the fire and have to be dragged out for a walk.
		
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I was referring to kateandluelue comment rather than anything else.  It was rather rude and those of us who know Alec, know full well he knows his dogs.  And I don't think he was tarring all rescue dogs, simply saying those 'rescued' as previous 'working' dogs usually had issues relating to their past life that made living a domesticated life more challenging and often unworkable.  Or at least that was how I read it.


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## stormox (2 February 2016)

fburton,I dont know whether they need a certificate to stitch, but hounds tear themselves regularly on barbed wire etc, when they're running and the adrenalines up they feel very little if they get an injury. Certainly  the professional kennel huntsman at my local pack regularly stitched horses, hounds etc, and vaccinated them, and shot them if necessary,all done very expertly.


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## honetpot (2 February 2016)

KautoStar1 said:



			to be fair, Alec has spent his whole life training and working with 'working' dogs, so he does know what he is talking about.
		
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 Alec does tend to make generalisations but generally he is right.


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## alliwantforchristmas (2 February 2016)

KautoStar1 said:



			I was referring to kateandluelue comment rather than anything else.  It was rather rude and those of us who know Alec, know full well he knows his dogs.  And I don't think he was tarring all rescue dogs, simply saying those 'rescued' as previous 'working' dogs usually had issues relating to their past life that made living a domesticated life more challenging and often unworkable.  Or at least that was how I read it.
		
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I read it that he said that those who re-homed greyhounds were pretty much condeming them to a life in prison.  A rude, unfair and ill-informed comment in my book.  He may 'know' dogs but to someone who doesn't know him he comes across as very prejudiced and biased.  When questioned on how to know whether a dog is 'stressed' I think his answer was along the lines of 'if you can't see it then there's no way to explain it'.  That's complete tosh, I've worked on a bite prevention programme for children, and helping children and adults spot the signs of stress, anxiety and discomfort in dogs is very 'doable'.  There's no magic or mystery to it.  Also, the fact that someone has a background in working dogs isn't necessarily a good thing - there's a local gundog trainer round here who sets himself up as a 'dog behaviourist' and has ruined several local pet dogs through his harsh handling techniques - most recently a young collie that ended up being destroyed through fear aggression made worse by his 'dominant' approach.  People with working dogs take the attitude that if the dog doesn't fit the bill it'll be shot - pet dog people don't think like that.  Neither is 'right' nor 'wrong' - just difference of opinion and room for both.  Not saying that Alec runs around calling himself a behaviourist and messing up dogs, but just that having a background in working dogs doesn't necessarily automatically make you an expert on everything 'dog'.


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## Apercrumbie (2 February 2016)

My interpretation of the "ex-racer debate" on this thread was that one side is saying that while many ex-racers go on to be successfully retrained into a variety of spheres, many don't even make it to another home as so many are culled.  Out of the ones who do make it to other homes, many are sadly ruined by riders who've bitten off more than they can chew.  The thoroughbred is clearly a fantastic animal but poor retraining has sadly created a bad reputation.  Also, just because many people have successfully retrained an OTTB doesn't mean that huge numbers aren't pts without ever being rehomed.

Re re-homing foxhounds, while I'm sure there a few exceptions, as this thread has shown, I think that in general most would really not take to domestic life away from their pack.  IMO it's a far bigger change to go from a pack environment to a domestic one than the change that a racehorse goes through.  

I'm definitely pro-shooting as personally I think it is the most humane way of killing.  I'm sure it is very difficult for those who have to do it, but I can think of no better death for a hound than to be relaxed, with his master and unaware of what is about to happen.


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## Wagtail (2 February 2016)

Shouldn't the hunts give the hounds some kind of retirement in an 'old pack'? I cannot believe that anyone who really loves their dogs/hounds would shoot them while they are still healthy and only seven years old. As I said in a previous post, the reason this kind of retirement is not given to the hounds is due to economics and practicalities. It is hardly mercy killing, and the last kind deed a loving master gives his hounds, as some posters try to portray it.

However, having said all that, this is real life, and life isn't kind or fair or ideal. Hounds have a very good life compared to the majority of farm animals or dogs brought up in cruel or inappropriate homes. Whilst I do not swallow the idea of a loving master shooting his hounds through kindness, and think that they deserve some kind of retirement given to them by the hunt, it is not an issue I am that concerned about when I compare it to the plight of many other animals.


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## Dry Rot (2 February 2016)

I'm afraid I do not understand the logic of some of the posters here. If done correctly, how can shooting be cruel? Cruelty is defined as causing unneccessary suffering. An animal that is dead is not suffering. To quote Woody Allen, "It is not the passing but the manner of the passing".

In my father's last days, the circulation in his legs got so bad the doctors recommended amputation for fear of gangrene. Thankfully, he died before they could commence their mutilation. I had a friend who had been behind the lines in Burma during the war, a game warden in Africa, etc. so one hell of a full life. He blew his brains out with his trusty 7mm when he was 90.

Personally, my ambition is to be shot in the back by a jealous husband. 

(The clue is in the screen name).


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## popsdosh (2 February 2016)

Wagtail said:



			Shouldn't the hunts give the hounds some kind of retirement in an 'old pack'? I cannot believe that anyone who really loves their dogs/hounds would shoot them while they are still healthy and only seven years old. As I said in a previous post, the reason this kind of retirement is not given to the hounds is due to economics and practicalities. It is hardly mercy killing, and the last kind deed a loving master gives his hounds, as some posters try to portray it.

However, having said all that, this is real life, and life isn't kind or fair or ideal. Hounds have a very good life compared to the majority of farm animals or dogs brought up in cruel or inappropriate homes. Whilst I do not swallow the idea of a loving master shooting his hounds through kindness, and think that they deserve some kind of retirement given to them by the hunt, it is not an issue I am that concerned about when I compare it to the plight of many other animals.
		
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I sincerely hope you are not suggesting the majority of farm animals are brought up in cruel conditions?


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## Wagtail (2 February 2016)

popsdosh said:



			I sincerely hope you are not suggesting the majority of farm animals are brought up in cruel conditions?
		
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With the exception of most sheep, yes I am, very much so.


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## popsdosh (2 February 2016)

Wagtail said:



			With the exception of most sheep, yes I am, very much so.
		
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hahahaha you truely havent a clue so what is cruel about how cattle are reared? Free range pigs? Free range chickens for egg production?  Then tell me your definition of majority . Why have you singled out sheep as an exception ?


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## Wagtail (2 February 2016)

popsdosh said:



			hahahaha you truely havent a clue so what is cruel about how cattle are reared? Free range pigs? Free range chickens for egg production?  Then tell me your definition of majority . Why have you singled out sheep as an exception ?
		
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I was brought up on a farm in Wales. It had sheep, beef and dairy cows, and my best friend's parents farmed pigs and rabbits. I know exactly how they are kept, thank you. It is not only how they are kept but the castration without local anaesthetic, taking calves from their mothers at a day old. Wintering in overcrowded barns deep in their own muck, the awful crowded travelling and long drive to the abattoir, and finally, the killing itself. Many are not unconscious when their throats are cut. They smell the blood on arrival. They are poked and prodded and worse. Sheep endure much of that too of course, but the majority of their life is very free range. The definition regulations of free range for pigs and chickens leaves an awful lot to be desired.


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## respectedpony driver (2 February 2016)

popsdosh said:



			I sincerely hope you are not suggesting the majority of farm animals are brought up in cruel conditions?
		
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Most farm animals are kept in awful conditions and are harshly treated


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## respectedpony driver (2 February 2016)

Wagtail said:



			I was brought up on a farm in Wales. It had sheep, beef and dairy cows, and my best friend's parents farmed pigs and rabbits. I know exactly how they are kept, thank you. It is not only how they are kept but the castration without local anaesthetic, taking calves from their mothers at a day old. Wintering in overcrowded barns deep in their own muck, the awful crowded travelling and long drive to the abattoir, and finally, the killing itself. Many are not unconscious when their throats are cut. They smell the blood on arrival. They are poked and prodded and worse. Sheep endure much of that too of course, but the majority of their life is very free range.
		
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.I have lived on a farm and known lots of farmers.All are hard ,they have to be otherwise how could they do all the things they have to do to produce meat.I do know some small farmers whose animals have a better time,but in general farm animals suffer,


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## catembi (2 February 2016)

Okay, so farming isn't cruel...

What happens to the male chicks that aren't needed for egg laying?
What happens to the hens once they've got too old to lay regularly?
Aren't dairy cows pretty much permanently pregnant (I don't think pregnancy is particularly pleasant) & don't they go through the agony of birth every year?
What happens to them once their bodies are worn out from the constant cycle of pregnancy and birth?
What happens to all their calves?  Don't the cows have a very strong maternal instinct?
Ear tagging?  Human ear piercing through cartilage is often v painful & poor healing, but those whacking great tags are fine?

Sounds pretty miserable to me.

My grandfather was a farmer (arable, pigs & broiler chickens) which set me on the path to vegetarianism, & I'm now as close to vegan as I can manage.

T x


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## spookypony (2 February 2016)

alliwantforchristmas said:



			gosh, how did a thread on culling foxhounds turn into a 'downer' on retired greyhounds?  I've known several retired greyhounds - a few of my friends have had them, my uncle, and my Dad's best friend, bless him, when he was alive.  To my mind they make great companion dogs.  The only 'stress' I ever saw was one who had separation distress when left, that one was my friend's dog, and she just went and got another greyhound - problem solved!  (She was never leaving them for a long time, only for a couple of hours as she is semi-retired and works from home).  They are total comfort lovers and seem very affectionate to their owners, and the ones I've seen are easy and well-mannered to walk on the lead.  I think you've got to be sensible and responsible about whether you let them off lead or not, and where, but that's the same with all dogs.
		
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I have to say my experience was similar. The first while was a bit stressful, as the greyhound had to work out how to negotiate stairs, what rawhide bones were for, that cacti do not make good chew toys, and that you can't just go into any house you please when you get tired on your walk. But after that first while, he was a pretty chilled-out dog that loved to sleep, play, and run around the dog park with other dogs. His tail was a bit of a menace because he operated it like a propeller when he got excited, and the cat learned to fetch before he did, but other than that, I'd say he was a pretty normal dog! He had raced in the USA (it's illegal in Canada) with rather moderate success: he finished his career with 43 races, 7 wins, 8 seconds, graded A. No superstar, but from my very limited understanding, not a complete washout either.


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## respectedpony driver (2 February 2016)

I am with you  catembi.


catembi said:



			Okay, so farming isn't cruel...

What happens to the male chicks that aren't needed for egg laying?
What happens to the hens once they've got too old to lay regularly?
Aren't dairy cows pretty much permanently pregnant (I don't think pregnancy is particularly pleasant) & don't they go through the agony of birth every year?
What happens to them once their bodies are worn out from the constant cycle of pregnancy and birth?
What happens to all their calves?  Don't the cows have a very strong maternal instinct?
Ear tagging?  Human ear piercing through cartilage is often v painful & poor healing, but those whacking great tags are fine?

Sounds pretty miserable to me.

My grandfather was a farmer (arable, pigs & broiler chickens) which set me on the path to vegetarianism, & I'm now as close to vegan as I can manage.

T x
		
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## popsdosh (2 February 2016)

Wagtail said:



			I was brought up on a farm in Wales. It had sheep, beef and dairy cows, and my best friend's parents farmed pigs and rabbits. I know exactly how they are kept, thank you. It is not only how they are kept but the castration without local anaesthetic, taking calves from their mothers at a day old. Wintering in overcrowded barns deep in their own muck, the awful crowded travelling and long drive to the abattoir, and finally, the killing itself. Many are not unconscious when their throats are cut. They smell the blood on arrival. They are poked and prodded and worse. Sheep endure much of that too of course, but the majority of their life is very free range. The definition regulations of free range for pigs and chickens leaves an awful lot to be desired.
		
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Oh dear oh dear.!! By law my yarded cows have to have more space than a horse in a 12X12 stable and they get to go wherever in the shed they wish too. Whats the point in arguing I know all my animals have the best life they can until the moment they are dispatched otherwise I would not be doing it. 
 whats more they dont get a saddle put on their backs ,a steel bar slammed in their gobs and have to put up with somebody riding them everyday. They even get fed a diet that is not alien to them that can cause ulcers either as a direct consequence or stress.


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## Sandstone1 (2 February 2016)

popsdosh said:



			Oh dear oh dear.!! By law my yarded cows have to have more space than a horse in a 12X12 stable and they get to go wherever in the shed they wish too. Whats the point in arguing I know all my animals have the best life they can until the moment they are dispatched otherwise I would not be doing it. 
 whats more they dont get a saddle put on their backs ,a steel bar slammed in their gobs and have to put up with somebody riding them everyday. They even get fed a diet that is not alien to them that can cause ulcers either as a direct consequence or stress.
		
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Good answer, I don't agree that farming not cruel but you make a good point.


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## chillipup (2 February 2016)

Alec Swan;13162160
Now to Captive Bolt Guns;  I wonder just how many have used them.  I have said:



			I'm pleased you have been able to agree with my previous post on this subject Alec. I suspect popsdosh will be much happier to accept your word rather than mine and will now realise I was not talking twaddle!!!

However, I must correct you on the following:-

The used of a captive bolt gun, if used correctly, causes immediate unconsciousness in the animal through a concussion  action to the skull (As stun guns can be both penetrative and non penetrative) However, It *does not* guarantee the animal is dead or that consciousness may not return, in the case of cattle, goats or sheep, horses etc. Which is why it is called a 'stun gun' (as opposed to a 'humane killer' and the reason why animals shot by this method have to be bled (stuck) in a slaughter house for food - or pithed in the case of field casualties - immediately to ensure death has occurred. The bolt does not destroy the entire brain. Only a free fire pistol or rifle can do this. Pithing ensures the brain is well and truly mushed and that all nerves are severed to the brain, as it is driven into the spinal column. A captive bolt used on a large animal cannot penetrate into the spinal column. 

Cattle, sheep or goats, destined for humane consumption or animal consumption, are no longer pithed in the slaughter house. They go straight from being stunned to shackled and stuck/bled. This was introduced into all UK slaughter houses in 2001 by the EC due to BSE concerns regarding pithing.
Please check out the following links as I'm sure you will not be convinced by my post. www.hsa.org.uk and choose online publications, followed by Captive bolt stunning of livestock. Also www.gov.uk/guidance/red-meat-slaughterhouses-restraining-stunning-killing-animals.

NB This may be of little importance to you Alec, but I have trained in the correct use the captive bolt stun gun (a Temple Cox - rather heavy and similar looking to a black and decker drill) and held the appropriate firearms licence to do so, prior to it being declassified from sect 1 status in 1998. Some of this training was conducted within slaughter houses.
		
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## popsdosh (2 February 2016)

chillipup said:



			I'm pleased you have been able to agree with my previous post on this subject Alec. I suspect popsdosh will be much happier to accept your word rather than mine and will now realise I was not talking twaddle!!!

However, I must correct you on the following:-

The used of a captive bolt gun, if used correctly, causes immediate unconsciousness in the animal through a concussion  action to the skull (As stun guns can be both penetrative and non penetrative) However, It *does not* guarantee the animal is dead or that consciousness may not return, in the case of cattle, goats or sheep, horses etc. Which is why it is called a 'stun gun' (as opposed to a 'humane killer' and the reason why animals shot by this method have to be bled (stuck) in a slaughter house for food - or pithed in the case of field casualties - immediately to ensure death has occurred. The bolt does not destroy the entire brain. Only a free fire pistol or rifle can do this. Pithing ensures the brain is well and truly mushed and that all nerves are severed to the brain, as it is driven into the spinal column. A captive bolt used on a large animal cannot penetrate into the spinal column. 

Cattle, sheep or goats, destined for humane consumption or animal consumption, are no longer pithed in the slaughter house. They go straight from being stunned to shackled and stuck/bled. This was introduced into all UK slaughter houses in 2001 by the EC due to BSE concerns regarding pithing.
Please check out the following links as I'm sure you will not be convinced by my post. www.hsa.org.uk and choose online publications, followed by Captive bolt stunning of livestock. Also www.gov.uk/guidance/red-meat-slaughterhouses-restraining-stunning-killing-animals.

NB This may be of little importance to you Alec, but I have trained in the correct use the captive bolt stun gun (a Temple Cox - rather heavy and similar looking to a black and decker drill) and held the appropriate firearms licence to do so, prior to it being declassified from sect 1 status in 1998. Some of this training was conducted within slaughter houses.
		
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Is that not indeed what I was trying to point out! I knew the situation re legality and didnt wish to be contentious about it after Alecs post anyhow thanks for confirming what I believed was correct all along!

I cannot for the life of me understand how they were ever declassified! To my knowledge at least 3 murders since then have involved them. Any Tom,Dick or Henrietta can buy one.


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## Toffee44 (2 February 2016)

For my pennies worth many of you know I canicross with my dogs. I regulary hang out with a few foxhounds and trail hounds. 

Whilst I disagree that its cruel to rehome I feel that after a working life it is not fair on the dog to go into domesticated living. The hounds I run have had upset lives very early on. One was a trail hound who took down a sheep, another who was accused of upsetting another dog during a race and finally the foxhound who was separated from the pack due to sabs who then Spent a long while in kennels and when the foxhound rescue returned the dog to the pack the huntsman did not want to try and integrate the dog back in due to time away etc. 

One of the trailhounds is basically a lab excellent recall, no problems really. He runs with us but quite often loose. 

Another cannot be let off at all but "dad" runs marathons and the hound thrives on this! 

And finally the foxhound who is bloody hard work. He does a bit of agility and he has just qualified in search and rescue and also runs or bikes with me or his mum half mara+ has recall and is my dogs best friend. 


But this only works as the owners lives are dedicated to these dogs. They also foster and have hounds in and out. But none of these dogs have had a long career in a hunting pack so have never known that life, but do each have a job. 

They would not cope with a little walk every day. I know of several other hounds out running who love the long distance stuff but do need dedicated owners with a hound life mentality and the ability to run them the milage they need.


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## popsdosh (2 February 2016)

catembi said:



			Okay, so farming isn't cruel...

What happens to the male chicks that aren't needed for egg laying?
What happens to the hens once they've got too old to lay regularly?
Aren't dairy cows pretty much permanently pregnant (I don't think pregnancy is particularly pleasant) & don't they go through the agony of birth every year?
What happens to them once their bodies are worn out from the constant cycle of pregnancy and birth?
What happens to all their calves?  Don't the cows have a very strong maternal instinct?
Ear tagging?  Human ear piercing through cartilage is often v painful & poor healing, but those whacking great tags are fine?

Sounds pretty miserable to me.

My grandfather was a farmer (arable, pigs & broiler chickens) which set me on the path to vegetarianism, & I'm now as close to vegan as I can manage.

T x
		
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Just to say I have no issue with Vegetarians or Vegans each to their own and if those are your beliefs I support you for upholding them.

I just struggle a bit taking Vegans who ride horses seriously how do you justify it when you have such strong beliefs ?because I couldnt.  That is a serious question not being facetious.


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## Wagtail (2 February 2016)

popsdosh said:



			Oh dear oh dear.!! By law my yarded cows have to have more space than a horse in a 12X12 stable and they get to go wherever in the shed they wish too. Whats the point in arguing I know all my animals have the best life they can until the moment they are dispatched otherwise I would not be doing it. 
 whats more they dont get a saddle put on their backs ,a steel bar slammed in their gobs and have to put up with somebody riding them everyday. They even get fed a diet that is not alien to them that can cause ulcers either as a direct consequence or stress.
		
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You make very good points about horses. I actually don't like bits. My little mare was backed bitless. I hate the way some horses are treated, backed too young, whipped, have no turnout etc. You'll have no arguments from me there. 

But how do you answer to my main points:

Castration without anaesthetic
Calves taken away from their mothers at a day old
Kept in sheds all winter (not exercised like horses)
Transported to their deaths in overcrowded containers and the suffering in the abattoirs

How do you know they don't have ulcers? Until a few years ago you were feeding them to themselves which caused BSE. Only stopped because of this. Who knows if they have ulcers. Have you scoped them?


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## Wagtail (2 February 2016)

Anyway, this thread has deviated somewhat. My main point is that hounds have a better life than many other animals including most farm animals.


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## Knockadoon (2 February 2016)

I used to work in a rescue that never put a healthy dog down. Unfortunately this meant that many unsuitable for rehoming spent a long time in kennels. They all went a bit mad. A bullet would have been a mercy. There are worse things for an animal than being dead.


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## chillipup (2 February 2016)

Knockadoon said:



			I used to work in a rescue that never put a healthy dog down. Unfortunately this meant that many unsuitable for rehoming spent a long time in kennels. They all went a bit mad. A bullet would have been a mercy. There are worse things for an animal than being dead.
		
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Well said K, I've always been wary of any rescue that states it has a no kill policy. I've seen first hand what affect kenneling long term can have on a dog, especially when many so called 'pitbulls' were seized under the dangerous dogs act when it was first introduced and dogs which had to spend 6 months in quarantine long before pet passports were widely available.


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## Cinnamontoast (2 February 2016)

Knockadoon said:



			I used to work in a rescue that never put a healthy dog down. Unfortunately this meant that many unsuitable for rehoming spent a long time in kennels. They all went a bit mad. A bullet would have been a mercy. There are worse things for an animal than being dead.
		
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Totally agree. I don't understand the whole keep a healthy dog, but he's aggressive to other dogs/people/has a massive issue. Far better, surely, to make room for an easy to re-home dog.


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## chillipup (2 February 2016)

Dry Rot said:



			I'm afraid I do not understand the logic of some of the posters here. If done correctly, how can shooting be cruel? Cruelty is defined as causing unneccessary suffering. An animal that is dead is not suffering. To quote Woody Allen, "It is not the passing but the manner of the passing".
In my father's last days, the circulation in his legs got so bad the doctors recommended amputation for fear of gangrene. Thankfully, he died before they could commence their mutilation. I had a friend who had been behind the lines in Burma during the war, a game warden in Africa, etc. so one hell of a full life. He blew his brains out with his trusty 7mm when he was 90.

Personally, my ambition is to be shot in the back by a jealous husband. 

(The clue is in the screen name).
		
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LOL  I'd like be able to do the same DR but by the jealous wife of my adonis of a lover....one can but dream...


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## Addicted to Hunting (2 February 2016)

Havnt read all the thread but have the read the first few pages, can assure you that hounds do indeed see the vet, each pack has a letter drawn up with their vets re treatment, and are inspected by the MFHA that everything is correct every few years. I'm a vets daughter and also work at the vets, as well as going hunting, we regularly will check up on any at kennels, as well as have them into the surgery if needed, granted we try and get them in at a quiet time so they aren't sat in the waiting room, and also partly to avoid politics. I've helped on a few emergency caesers, one in fact we did during a party, (we did leave the party and go to surgery) and we've had them in for various other things, we are all gutted if we can't help them, including hunt staff. I've seen dogs but down by injection and also seen hounds shot, I wouldn't say any way is worse, but due to having to find a vein, the bullet is basically quicker. Yes some relationships between hunts and vets may not be as good, but some are. There are good and bad parts of everything, but have to say all of the hunt staff I know and have seen all love their hounds, and are upset when one dies/has to be put down.


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## chillipup (2 February 2016)

popsdosh said:



			Is that not indeed what I was trying to point out! I knew the situation re legality and didnt wish to be contentious about it after Alecs post anyhow thanks for confirming what I believed was correct all along
I cannot for the life of me understand how they were ever declassified! To my knowledge at least 3 murders since then have involved them. Any Tom,Dick or Henrietta can buy one.
		
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Why thank you popsdosh... I do declare, it seems we actually agree on something  
Yes, it does seem rather odd that they were declassified, being pretty lethal either way, especially in the wrong hands  I'm assuming the gangbangers of our inner cities don't know about this potential weapon, or prefer they'd rather do their killing from a distance! 

I should be looking forward to Alec's reply to my post, not to gloat in anyway, but just for some sort of acknowledgement or even a smidge of recognition from him, regarding my post. 

Sadly, I won't be holding my breath, as I can almost guarantee he will refrain from replying or even acknowledging,(on such a public forum) that his post was flawed regarding captive bolt stun guns. 

If he reads this, I'm not looking to embarrass you AS, but just to have some grace in admitting what you post is not always correct. rather than just ignoring me.

Oh go on AS, you know you really want to...


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## YorksG (2 February 2016)

chillipup said:



			Why thank you popsdosh... I do declare, it seems we actually agree on something  
Yes, it does seem rather odd that they were declassified, being pretty lethal either way, especially in the wrong hands  I'm assuming the gangbangers of our inner cities don't know about this potential weapon, or prefer they'd rather do their killing from a distance! 

I should be looking forward to Alec's reply to my post, not to gloat in anyway, but just for some sort of acknowledgement or even a smidge of recognition from him, regarding my post. 

Sadly, I won't be holding my breath, as I can almost guarantee he will refrain from replying or even acknowledging,(on such a public forum) that his post was flawed regarding captive bolt stun guns. 

If he reads this, I'm not looking to embarrass you AS, but just to have some grace in admitting what you post is not always correct. rather than just ignoring me.

Oh go on AS, you know you really want to...

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What a graceless post!


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## chillipup (3 February 2016)

YorksG said:



			What a graceless post! 

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I think you fail to realise YG, popsdosh and I have not (always, or ever, I think) seen eye to eye. I am at least recognising we do in fact have some things in common, finally. No ungraceous post here! I am more than happy to acknowledge our differences and embrace some similarities. Isn't that what life is all about? finding some common ground YG ?

As per AS replying to my post, he has made it quite clear, by previously examples show, that should I dare to question a post he's made or call him out on a comment he has made, I am ignored by him without any justification  or acknowledgement. I still don't know why.  At least popsdosh has the balls to say what she thinks. I'm growing fonder by the day


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## popsdosh (3 February 2016)

Wagtail said:



			You make very good points about horses. I actually don't like bits. My little mare was backed bitless. I hate the way some horses are treated, backed too young, whipped, have no turnout etc. You'll have no arguments from me there. 

But how do you answer to my main points:

Castration without anaesthetic
Calves taken away from their mothers at a day old
Kept in sheds all winter (not exercised like horses)
Transported to their deaths in overcrowded containers and the suffering in the abattoirs

How do you know they don't have ulcers? Until a few years ago you were feeding them to themselves which caused BSE. Only stopped because of this. Who knows if they have ulcers. Have you scoped them?
		
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I shall try and answer some of your questions why I dont know as all it seems to do is raise more questions and this thread has gone somewhat off subject.
Castration , there are three methods of castration that can be used Rubber ring has to be applied within 7 days of birth this would be the most common having done thousands over the years I can honestly say I have rarely seen any pain reaction to this method and they just get on with life like nothing has happened unlike lambs who will squirm about a bit until they go numb. Method 2 is budizzo which is bloodless proceedure were the spermatic cord is crushed this can be done up to eight weeks. method three is surgically remove with aneasthetic which can only be done by a vet after 8 weeks.
If you dont believe me on the rubber rings you are welcome to come and see for yourself.

Calves are indeed within a dairy herd taken from their mothers at a young age. It sort of defeats the object of keeping dairy cows if you dont. Mine are beef cows so their calves are usually with them until they are 8-9 months there is never a good time to part cows and calves you will always get noise and upset you get no more at two days than you do at nine months . personally having worked with dairy herds in the past there is less of a bond at two days .Cows are a lot more pragmatic than the layman thinks as we put human values on it .  Again if you wish to drink milk its a necessary thing that has to happern

The space issue as I said legally my cows have to have more floor space per cow than a 12x12 stable however they are not restricted to that area and can roam about at freewill within the yards each being about 600 m2 on top of this they have to have seperate feeding space. Cows in general as most will know are more sedentary than horses so the exercise is sort of as much as they want and in truth spend most of the time laying down or eating.

Your question about transport and slaughter was put with an emotive slant. 
i am sorry but there are strict regulations covering animal transport that has to be adhered too more so than riders transporting their horses. They have to be loaded at a certain density to keep them safe during the journey many members of the public think this is overcrowded its not  The lorry has to have divisions about every 10ft  If they are to loose within the lorry they will crash around and injure each other. In abattoirs now all parts from unloading into lairage up to the killing box are all covered by recorded CCTV which I hope gives you some reassurance This in turn is monitored by on sight government vets. . Have you ever been to an abattoir as I dont recognise them as you describe. Slaughtering animals poorly and mishandling is so counter productive to running an efficient modern plant I find it so disheartening when people make these assumptions about the end the animals come to without witnessing it so you know the facts not what your fed from the internet by those opposed to meat eating full stop. I personally have a dislike of some slaughter methods that should not be allowed in my mind as we are pandering to extreme religious views.

Finally I have yet to meet a cow with an ulcer and I am never likely to . They never get stressed enough  

I hope Wagtail you appreciate I have taken the time to answer your questions I dont wish to get involved in an argument just accept there my view on the things you asked about I dont expect you to agree however I am trying to give it to you as it is rather than some extreme video on the internet . I have nothing to hide here people can come and look and make their own minds up. Just as further reassurance we can be inspected by several agencies at any time without warning to make sure we are doing all we should.


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## popsdosh (3 February 2016)

chillipup said:



			I think you fail to realise YG, popsdosh and I have not (always, or ever, I think) seen eye to eye. I am at least recognising we do in fact have some things in common, finally. No ungraceous post here! I am more than happy to acknowledge our differences and embrace some similarities. Isn't that what life is all about? finding some common ground YG ?

As per AS replying to my post, he has made it quite clear, by previously examples show, that should I dare to question a post he's made or call him out on a comment he has made, I am ignored by him without any justification  or acknowledgement. I still don't know why.  At least popsdosh has the balls to say what she thinks. I'm growing fonder by the day

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I think we agree on more than you think however as they say theres more than one way to skin a cat. I know unfortunate phrase!


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## chillipup (3 February 2016)

popsdosh said:



			I think we agree on more than you think however as they say theres more than one way to skin a cat. I know unfortunate phrase!
		
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LOL... thanks popsdosh,  I appreciate the humour.


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## Alec Swan (3 February 2016)

chillipup said:



			..
Sadly, I won't be holding my breath, as I can almost guarantee he will refrain from replying or even acknowledging,(on such a public forum) that his post was flawed regarding captive bolt stun guns. 

If he reads this, I'm not looking to embarrass you AS, but just to have some grace in admitting what you post is not always correct. rather than just ignoring me.

..
		
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OK,  just this once,  and just for you;  The brain size of all those animals which we slaughter,  whether as meat for our consumption or not,  when 'compared' with the size of the projectile which is a bullet or the retractable steel bolt which comes out of and returns to a captive bolt pistol,  is really quite tiny,  and the catastrophic injury caused by either entering the brain,  is always and eventually fatal,  accepting that the accuracy of the placing is adhered to.  Animals which are slaughtered for meat are bled-out because were they not,  then firstly the storage of such meat would be short lived and the meat itself wouldn't be palatable. 

The fact that with an animal which is bled,  the heart stops when the blood supply runs out and the pressure drops,  is what hastens the final heartbeats.  When an animal is shot,  by either method,  but it 'isn't' bled,  death also follows,  it's just that it's delayed,  generally by a minute or so,  but the end result is always the same.  That is my experience,  not following 'training' or reading the thoughts of others,  but standing over animals which I have killed.

Explaining simple and one would imagine,  easily digestible facts to you seems pointless,  which is why I generally ignore your near seemingly permanent wish to contradict,  and doing so whilst either lacking experience of the subject and/or being reliant upon google for your facts.  

This really is my last word on the matter,  and is only offered because of your instance upon a response.

Alec.


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## alfiesowner (13 July 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			I'd be interested to hear which Pack would release a Hound to a pet home.  To subject any Hound to a domestic prison would be cruelty in the extreme.

Alec.
		
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Yes, my pet Foxhound is clearly in much distress in his domestic life. Loves the couch, loves people, loves dogs, loves tracking and trail walks. Don't make such a generalised statement.


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## Alec Swan (13 July 2016)

alfiesowner said:



			Yes, my pet Foxhound is clearly in much distress in his domestic life. Loves the couch, loves people, loves dogs, loves tracking and trail walks. Don't make such a generalised statement.
		
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Well if you were gifted a foxhound by a MH,  there must be at the least,  one Master who agrees with you! 

Alec.


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## alfiesowner (13 July 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			Well if you were gifted a foxhound by a MH,  there must be at the least,  one Master who agrees with you! 

Alec.
		
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Foxhound Welfare also rehome several Foxhounds and while it can take time to find the right family they do so successfully.

Mine has never hunted. It's a bit of a mystery how we've managed to end up with one - he was sold as a puppy by a irresponsible breeder as a Beagle x Retriever and the original owners couldn't cope when he just kept on growing. We have since met several individuals involved in hunts and got advice from experts, all believing him to be a Foxhound. He may have a little something else in him, but we're not sure what. 

I can respect rehoming a Foxhound after years upon years a member of the hunt, I can see how this is difficult. However rehoming after a year or two when they're not up to it or rehoming as a puppy, when found to be too weak or unsuitable for the hunt, is a possibility but isn't done. It's entirely different to a hound who has spent six or seven years in the hunt living as a part of the pack.


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## Goldenstar (13 July 2016)

G&T said:



			So what is their job? Are they providing a necessary service like a police dog or a guide dog?

I have already said I'm far from an expert on hunting with hounds. Haven't been since way back in the mists of time when I was in the pony club - and would not do it now.
		
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Then don't give it another thought .


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## Dry Rot (13 July 2016)

I haven't read the whole thread but if there is reincarnation, I want to come back as a hound in a pack rather than a designer dog living in a London flat.

I'd also prefer to be shot in kennels than dragged off to the vet at regular intervals to be dosed, doctored, and kept alive just to indulge my 'kind and caring' owner.

Better a short life and a merry one, with a quick clean end, than a long life full of misery.


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## applecart14 (13 July 2016)

My partners previous boss worked at one of the foot packs down in Oxford somewhere. My partner was living on his own before I met him and was very lonely and was offered an eight week old beagle bitch who was two inches too short at the shoulder to run with the pack and was going to be shot.  Although her Mum was a very well bred and put to together bitch Candy was not so.  My partner ended up having her and she lived until she was 14. She had a brilliant life, a life that would otherwise not have happened had she been shot as a puppy. Here are a couple of lovely photos of her.

She had already had her tattoos in her ear and her dew claws removed.







https://forums-secure.horseandhound.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=22554&d=1395060389[/IMG]


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## alfiesowner (13 July 2016)

applecart14 said:



			her dew claws removed.
		
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What I wouldn't give for Alfie's dew claws to be removed!! He's too old now really and it will cause issues not to mention cost a lot, but man are his dew claws a pain (literally)


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## applecart14 (13 July 2016)

Our current beagle who is a rescue is also very similar looking to Candy (lot thinner though lol) and she has hers, but isn't from a hunt kennels and I often wish for the same.

I am not opposed to dew claw removal if done correctly and if it is necessary for the sake of the dog.


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## alfiesowner (13 July 2016)

He catches everything, everyone and anything with his so we're considering it. An expensive procedure in which he has to be put out but perhaps a neccessary evil. No matter how much we file it, it still catches, hurts him and hurts everyone else too - and they don't get worn down through walks as he doesn't walk on them.


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## Aleka81 (13 July 2016)

alfiesowner said:



			Yes, my pet Foxhound is clearly in much distress in his domestic life. Loves the couch, loves people, loves dogs, loves tracking and trail walks. Don't make such a generalised statement.
		
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But it's not a Foxhound is it! It's a cross! Big difference!


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## alfiesowner (13 July 2016)

We think, hope, we don't know. Most involved in hunts who meet him think he's just plain old Foxhound. We may get DNA done.


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## Aleka81 (13 July 2016)

You declare in your first post on the forum that he is a cross! You then post pictures and ask people to suggest what breed he is crossed with and now you are saying he is pure. I don't believe from all you have said and having looked through the pictures that he is pure foxhound at all! But it shouldn't matter as long as you are happy with him.


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## alfiesowner (13 July 2016)

I never said anywhere he's pure... 

It's pretty impossible to know with a rescue who doesn't have a good background. I'm not debating whether he is a cross or not when I can't know for sure and neither can you. All I said was many individuals who would declare themselves experts think he's a full Foxhound. I think he is indeed a cross, but his nature is hound through and through. It's easier on us to say he's a cross, you wouldn't believe the rubbish and even abuse we get from people when we say he's a Foxhound.


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## Alec Swan (13 July 2016)

alfiesowner,  I seem to remember that you may have posted a pic of your dog on here previously.  I can't find it,  so if you have,  would you repost it?  Ta!

Alec.


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## alfiesowner (13 July 2016)

Alec, of course. Originally posted them in my intro but happy to share a few here too. Always interested to hear peoples thoughts.


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## Clodagh (13 July 2016)

What a handsome chap. He doesn't look like a foxhound to me - too small and light, but could be a harrier? It is hard to tell how big he is from the pictures.
I am intrigued to know where foxhound welfare get their hounds from, I cannot imagine hunts supporting them? Perhaps they rehome those show bred foxhuonds that you see at Crufts? (Genuine question). Alfie is very handsome indeed. He doesn't look like a lab cross, IMO. Still, breed is irrelevant as long as you love him.


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## charterline (13 July 2016)

I thought the "show" foxhounds were generally hunting rejects?

And one question I've always wondered... Is it possible to register any foxhound with the kennel club? After all it's a recognised breed, and their pedigree is certainly recorded!


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## spacefaer (13 July 2016)

The "show" foxhounds are not something I know anything about,  but I do know that the huntsman of the North Staffs showed one there a couple of years ago, and that certainly wasn't a reject!


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## Dry Rot (13 July 2016)

charterline said:



			I thought the "show" foxhounds were generally hunting rejects?

And one question I've always wondered... Is it possible to register any foxhound with the kennel club? After all it's a recognised breed, and their pedigree is certainly recorded!
		
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I had a parallel argument with the KC years ago over the importation of gundogs registered with The American Field Dog Stud Book (an international working gundog registry) and then registering the dogs with the UK KC. The KC insisted that they must first have their pedigrees authenticated by the indigenous kennel club which, for example, might be the American Kennel Club. Once authenticated, the AKC would issue an Export Pedigree. The UK KC would then register the dog on the strength of this Export Pedigree. But AKC (for example) would only autenticate the pedigrees of certain 'recognised registries' within their own jurisdiction.

A bit of nonsense really as the AFDSB was in existence long before the AKC.

I imported a dog from South Africa that was registered with the AFDSB and also the South African Field Trial Club. Although the dog was not registered with The South African Kennel Club, they changed their rules to 'recognise' the SAFTC and subsequently issued an Export Certificate that was acceptable to the UK KC. Same dog, just more money in fees to the KC and it's affiliates.

And if you can follow that load of bureaucratic nonsense, you deserve a medal. The object is not to ensure the purity of pedigree breeding (it is easy enough to fiddle pedigrees) but to maintain a monopoly of canine registrations world-wide....and yet another reason I hate the KC!!! 

So, yes, I think it is possible to apply to have a foxhound registered with the KC as the foxhound association would issue a certificate of pedigree that would then be accepted by the KC. By why on earth would anyone bother? I wonder how many working sheepdogs registered with the International Sheep Dog Association are also registered with the KC? So, yes, a KC registered foxhound is more than likely to be a reject and I don't know many shepherds who would seek out a KC registered sheepdog unless they were mentally challenged!


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## Alec Swan (13 July 2016)

alfiesowner said:



			Alec, of course. &#8230;&#8230;..
		
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He is indeed a handsome dog and he certainly fills the eye,  but I'd be most surprised if he was a foxhound from a registered pack by lineage.  Just why,  I'm not sure,  but then I'm not a judge of hounds!

None the less,  he's your pride and joy,  and THAT'S all that matters!

Thanks for the pics.

Alec.


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## Alec Swan (13 July 2016)

Dry Rot said:



			.. , I think it is possible to apply to have a foxhound registered with the KC as the foxhound association would issue a certificate of pedigree that would then be accepted by the KC. .. !
		
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By the 'foxhounds association',  do you mean the MFHA?  I would be staggered to hear that any MFHA Member would supply the necessary documentation to allow a KC acceptance.  Obviously someone who has no sense of common-sense has and at some point,  because they're now shown under KC rules,  but the responsible would be horrified,  considering the mess that the KC and the attendant show societies have made of just about every registered breed of dog.

Alec.


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## Haz:) (13 July 2016)

Personally, I'd have to admit that I'm not keen on this idea. Too old or too slow is no reason in my eyes to PTS something, albeit hound or horse or other. 

If they are going to breed the hounds to do that job in which they'd never be happy as a pet afterwards, they should atleast dedicate some sort of program or place for the unwanted hounds.

Please don't attack me for this, it's just my opinion. I'm very open to others views too however.


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## alfiesowner (13 July 2016)

Clodagh said:



			What a handsome chap. He doesn't look like a foxhound to me - too small and light, but could be a harrier? It is hard to tell how big he is from the pictures.
I am intrigued to know where foxhound welfare get their hounds from, I cannot imagine hunts supporting them? Perhaps they rehome those show bred foxhuonds that you see at Crufts? (Genuine question). Alfie is very handsome indeed. He doesn't look like a lab cross, IMO. Still, breed is irrelevant as long as you love him.
		
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He's not a Harrier as he's too large and too heavy. 29 inches to the withers and 30kg, he's also still filling out (his chest is much bigger now than in some of those photos). We thought Harrier too for a while but he's just too big. I completely agree he isn't crossed with lab - I've owned labs as well as beagles previously and he has no lab characteristics whatsoever! You're quite right - breed is irrelevant when you love the dog but it is fascinating! He certainly makes for a good debate! 

Foxhound welfare are sometimes ex pack (but very young ex pack), some ex show and then some crosses who, somehow filter into breeding, irresponsible breeders sell the puppies as something else and they're given up (which happened with Alfie - but we didn't get him from foxhound welfare). A minority of hunts seem to support them but I don't think most do.


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## alfiesowner (13 July 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			He is indeed a handsome dog and he certainly fills the eye,  but I'd be most surprised if he was a foxhound from a registered pack by lineage.  Just why,  I'm not sure,  but then I'm not a judge of hounds!

None the less,  he's your pride and joy,  and THAT'S all that matters!

Thanks for the pics.

Alec.
		
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It would be very surprising - I've never heard of foxhounds being bred for any other purpose than the hunt or sometimes show. 

He most certainly fills the eye - makes up for the mess he leaves in his wake! He is a challenge but not dislike any rescue or high energy breed really. 

There does seem to be a lot of hounds, particular Harriers, foxhounds and trail hounds, recently in rescues though so I can't help but wonder where they are coming from. I've never seen them in rescues before really until this year.


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## alfiesowner (13 July 2016)

Haz I have to say I agree. Something doesn't sit right with me, breeding a dog for a purpose that ends with it getting shot when it's done. 7 or 8 years old is still a young dog. But for me it's the dogs put down very young because they don't cut it, that really doesn't sit right. A lot could be done with them in way of rehoming but instead they're PTS. A waste.


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## charterline (13 July 2016)

Please tell me how on earth you would rehome an 8 year old foxhound as a pet?


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## Alec Swan (13 July 2016)

alfiesowner said:



			Haz I have to say I agree. Something doesn't sit right with me, breeding a dog for a purpose that ends with it getting shot when it's done. 7 or 8 years old is still a young dog. But for me it's the dogs put down very young because they don't cut it, that really doesn't sit right. A lot could be done with them in way of rehoming but instead they're PTS. A waste.
		
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The problem arises when we consider the dog itself,  and though they'd hardly have ambition,  they are certainly of only one mindset and that's the purpose for which they're bred.  To pass on such a dog (hound) and to expect the animal itself to understand the good intentions of the adopter,  simply doesn't work.

When the work-bred dog which has been kennelled for all it's life and has been a part of an involved pack existence,  is passed over to a pet home,  then generally the animal would be assured a life of frustration and misery. Were it otherwise,  then hounds would be gifted and away from their packs,  it isn't and so that's why they aren't.  I wish that it was otherwise.

Alec.


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## alfiesowner (13 July 2016)

I agree in the most part, apart from the hounds which at a very young age are deemed unsuitable for the hunt or for the show. Surely they could be rehomed?


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## alfiesowner (13 July 2016)

charterline said:



			Please tell me how on earth you would rehome an 8 year old foxhound as a pet?
		
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I didn't say you could. Just that I find it an uncomfortable thought for them to be PTS half way through their lives but I can understand why it's done. You can dislike something but still understand it, similar to how I imagine those in the hunt feel.


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## Toffee44 (14 July 2016)

Dry Rot said:



			So, yes, I think it is possible to apply to have a foxhound registered with the KC as the foxhound association would issue a certificate of pedigree that would then be accepted by the KC. By why on earth would anyone bother? I wonder how many working sheepdogs registered with the International Sheep Dog Association are also registered with the KC? So, yes, a KC registered foxhound is more than likely to be a reject and I don't know many shepherds who would seek out a KC registered sheepdog unless they were mentally challenged!
		
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Took 5 months but friends foxhound is now KC registered. Because she wanted to show and there are classes available. End of.


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