# Video of monitor removing fox from hounds



## bubbilygum (23 November 2012)

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=FkY7w8u6uEw&desktop_uri=/watch?v=FkY7w8u6uEw&gl=GB

Old Berks is my local hunt.. I don't hunt myself (bit of a wimp) but I have attended hunt organised events (point to point, hunt balls etc) and would never consider myself to be against hunting, but I found myself quite shocked about seeing the hounds actually on a fox... Perhaps I am naive/showing my true wimpiness but I found this quite upsetting! Also, surely given the hunting ban, shouldn't the hunt members stood watching have intervened? I don't fully understand the new rules but this strikes me as being 'illegal'?!


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## sweet_essence (23 November 2012)

oh God.....   

next they'll be putting cameras in abattoirs. 


To answer your question.  The hunt supporters shout to get the lady off the fox.... they know (as maybe I should suggest to you) that the fox has the best ability to survive against the hounds.  

Unfortuntely, with the intevention of a human... the fox has no chance to survive (in the manner to live the life it once lived).  Human contact = no life to the fox in the wilderness it once lived.   This is the whole point of hunting. Natural selection, natual upon natural, natural cull.

I'm no legal expert... but it looks like the huntsmans view is blocked, hence it is unfortunely an instance that hounds on a trail (with 300 years of breeding to pick up on a fox scent and kill)... have done what natural instinct inidicates.

Perhaps I could suggest to speak to the masters of this hunt if you are not guided correctly on the current circumstances of the law of Hunting Act 2005.

My response to this. Poor, poor fox.  Now man handled it will never live the life it once lived, is so clearly stessed by the human contact and ,bless, is now better shot.  (which I believe is legal - perhaps the lady could do the honours) .


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## JanetGeorge (24 November 2012)

Didn't look to me as if hounds were hunting that fox - they literally ran into it.  A minute before the huntsman was calling the pack together and the hounds that happened on the fox were away from the pack (who were just lolloping up to the stationary huntsman - NOT what you'd see if hounds were hunting a fox.) Scent would have been pretty much non existent with a couple of big slurry tankers and I think the fox was mooching around the slurry tankers - probably rat hunting - and the straggler hounds just fell onto him.  They certainly weren't in full cry as they would have been if they'd been on the fox's scent!

The STUPID woman deserved to get bitten throwing herself on the fox like that - she would have terrified it!  (Also, if hounds HAD been after it for more than a few seconds, chances are one of them might have bitten her while going for the fox.)  Supporters certainly shouldn't try and 'discipline' hounds.  Most wouldn't have a CLUE how to go about it anyway!


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## Moomin1 (24 November 2012)

sweet_essence said:



			oh God.....   

next they'll be putting cameras in abattoirs. 


To answer your question.  The hunt supporters shout to get the lady off the fox.... they know (as maybe I should suggest to you) that the fox has the best ability to survive against the hounds.  

Unfortuntely, with the intevention of a human... the fox has no chance to survive (in the manner to live the life it once lived).  Human contact = no life to the fox in the wilderness it once lived.   This is the whole point of hunting. Natural selection, natual upon natural, natural cull.

I'm no legal expert... but it looks like the huntsmans view is blocked, hence it is unfortunely an instance that hounds on a trail (with 300 years of breeding to pick up on a fox scent and kill)... have done what natural instinct inidicates.

Perhaps I could suggest to speak to the masters of this hunt if you are not guided correctly on the current circumstances of the law of Hunting Act 2005.

My response to this. Poor, poor fox.  Now man handled it will never live the life it once lived, is so clearly stessed by the human contact and ,bless, is now better shot.  (which I believe is legal - perhaps the lady could do the honours) .
		
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Hundreds of injured foxes are taken in each month and treated and released by humans.  They go back into the wild fine.  

Hope that puts your mind at rest.

H


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## Wot_u_c (24 November 2012)

Moomin1 said:



			Hundreds of injured foxes are taken in each month and treated and released by humans.  They go back into the wild fine.  

H
		
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According to who?


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## weebarney (24 November 2012)

sweet_essence said:



			oh God.....   

next they'll be putting cameras in abattoirs. 

Unfortuntely, with the intevention of a human... the fox has no chance to survive (in the manner to live the life it once lived).  Human contact = no life to the fox in the wilderness it once lived.   This is the whole point of hunting. Natural selection, natual upon natural, natural cull.

I'm no legal expert... but it looks like the huntsmans view is blocked, hence it is unfortunely an instance that hounds on a trail (with 300 years of breeding to pick up on a fox scent and kill)... have done what natural instinct inidicates.

Perhaps I could suggest to speak to the masters of this hunt if you are not guided correctly on the current circumstances of the law of Hunting Act 2005.

My response to this. Poor, poor fox.  Now man handled it will never live the life it once lived, is so clearly stessed by the human contact and ,bless, is now better shot.  (which I believe is legal - perhaps the lady could do the honours) .
		
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I don't get this post at all? What would be the problem with cameras in an abattoir anyway? 
That is ridiculous to suggest a fox that has been handled by humans can't be returned to the wild. I rescued an owl that was trapped in netting and took it to a wild animal sanctuary to be checked before getting released, should I have just wrung its neck?


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## OEH (24 November 2012)

I do lots if photography for the hunt and received hate mail from an anti yesterday as a result if this!!!!!


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## sweet_essence (24 November 2012)

Don't don't get my point 'H'.... 

Foxes aren't humans. Foxy is in its wilderness; smelly, cold, wet, eathy, foxy world looking to scout out food, a mate, and reproduce. Think like a foxy... that's why I mention 'natural' in the context of the foxes best ability to survive against the hound. It either walks away to live another day in its foxy world, or it doesn't. It's as simple as that.

Yes, he is more than likely dead under the nose of a very well bred foxhound (on trail).... but he has a foxy choice in his natural environment... and if that foxy choice leads to a quick death then unfortunately its the darkness that invites him that day (and a huntsmans horn will honour that). BUT....he also has a foxy chance, and low and behold, if that foxy chance is survival against a hound is won - he walks away with his tail held high to live the best possible life a fox could lead in a world known to him (as a FOX).

Now lets return back to the annoying screaming erratic lady (really, there is no need to be so loud and panicked). By man handling this fox..... its now causing HIGH unneccessary distress for a PROLONGED time in an un-natural environment. Longterm for this fox....think like a foxy... would you want to mate with a fox that smelt alien (by human contact) or socialise with a fox that puts you're young familiy at risk by running up to humans/ danger/ roads...  nope, vixen foxy only wants a dog that gives her the best possible chance to successfully mate and bring up cunning young, smart enough to outwit in a human influenced world and strong enough to fight off danger. The type of fox thats bred, that in foxy generations to come strengthens the brand of the 'cunning as a fox'.

I'm sure there are lots of 'successful' releases back into the wild - but, like a bird touched by humans (did your teachers not tell you about this one),  natural selection (from human contact) will now kick in for that fox - it's lost its natural course to live in the wilderness.

Golden rule for humans- if you get a chance to, don't ever touch a fox (or a bird or deer or anything 'wild') if you want it to remain unmarked to survive in its natural wilderness world.  

This is a good read to understand about the distress put onto a fox in this instance...

www.vet-wildlifemanagement.org.uk/images/stories/item-images/pdf/HWMMI-12-11.pdf


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## weebarney (24 November 2012)

sweet_essence said:



			Don't don't get my point 'H'.... 

Foxes aren't humans. Foxy is in its wilderness; smelly, cold, wet, eathy, foxy world looking to scout out food, a mate, and reproduce. Think like a foxy... that's why I mention 'natural' in the context of the foxes best ability to survive against the hound. It either walks away to live another day in its foxy world, or it doesn't. It's as simple as that.

Yes, he is more than likely dead under the nose of a very well bred foxhound (on trail).... but he has a foxy choice in his natural environment... and if that foxy choice leads to a quick death then unfortunately its the darkness that invites him that day (and a huntsmans horn will honour that). BUT....he also has a foxy chance, and low and behold, if that foxy chance is survival against a hound is won - he walks away with his tail held high to live the best possible life a fox could lead in a world known to him (as a FOX).

Now lets return back to the annoying screaming erratic lady (really, there is no need to be so loud and panicked). By man handling this fox..... its now causing HIGH unneccessary distress for a PROLONGED time in an un-natural environment. Longterm for this fox....think like a foxy... would you want to mate with a fox that smelt alien (by human contact) or socialise with a fox that puts you're young familiy at risk by running up to humans/ danger/ roads...  nope, vixen foxy only wants a dog that gives her the best possible chance to successfully mate and bring up cunning young, smart enough to outwit in a human influenced world and strong enough to fight off danger. The type of fox thats bred, that in foxy generations to come strengthens the brand of the 'cunning as a fox'.

I'm sure there are lots of 'successful' releases back into the wild - but, like a bird touched by humans (did your teachers not tell you about this one),  natural selection (from human contact) will now kick in for that fox - it's lost its natural course to live in the wilderness.

Golden rule for humans- if you get a chance to, don't ever touch a fox (or a bird or deer or anything 'wild') if you want it to remain unmarked to survive in its natural wilderness world.  

This is a good read to understand about the distress put onto a fox in this instance...

www.vet-wildlifemanagement.org.uk/images/stories/item-images/pdf/HWMMI-12-11.pdf

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Sorry but this post is terribly misguided. If I handle a cat will I smell of cat for life ? No it will be very temporary, same as a human touching a wild animal. Ps think you need to educate yourself before posting as a bird will not be rejected because it has been handled. You are showing yourself up as seriously uneducated on wild life. 
Oh and what is wrong with cameras in an abattoir ? You never said.


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## sweet_essence (24 November 2012)

Quite the contary Weebarney... you are showing yourself up. 

A veterinary or wildlife sanctuary will be following guidelines to the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 on the conservation and protection on of owls and raptors. 

This subject was on 'Fox'.

My mere comment on abbatoirs, was if they want to see and film something shocking, see how humane and legalised animal death occcurs for meat to be on your plate.

Good day,


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## weebarney (24 November 2012)

sweet_essence said:



			Quite the contary Weebarney... you are showing yourself up. 

A veterinary or wildlife sanctuary will be following guidelines to the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 on the conservation and protection on of owls and raptors. 

This subject was on 'Fox'.

My mere comment on abbatoirs, was if they want to see and film something shocking, see how humane and legalised animal death occcurs for meat to be on your plate.

Good day,
		
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Did you not just say you should never handle a wild bird? Honestly have you never seen chicks getting ringed? 
You say a fox that has been handled by a human is better shot, so this problem only occurs with foxes does it? Oh and birds


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## weebarney (24 November 2012)

sweet_essence said:



			Quite the contary Weebarney... you are showing yourself up. 



Good day,
		
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How am I showing myself up? Is it because I pointed out the stuff you were spouting is untrue? 
I hope you never come across an animal in distress and needing help.


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## sweet_essence (24 November 2012)

Hello Weebarney, 

Thank you for manipulating my last post and deleting some comments.

I'm hoping  the chicks being ringed (that you refer to) were held by someone with a licensed under that wildlfe act.

...and please dont assume the person that I am (judging by your febble comments - you will be way off the mark), like I dont assume the person that you maybe.   This column is not about me nor is it about you.


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## Fiagai (24 November 2012)

From this footage it is evident that:

The fox appears to have been in the vicinity of the silos when the hounds were moving around same

The hounds were not hunting at the time of the incident - see hounds behaviour / reaction before and also when hounds suddenly finding a fox behind them.  Only one hound turns back and spots the fox initialy.

I find it somewhat strange that the fox just happens to magically appear as the sab turns up with camera - this is strangely coincidential imo

The woman is able to grab the fox from hounds - if this fox was actually been hunted by hounds - she would certainly not been able to do this

Ok Foxes and hounds do encounter each other from time to time... this is not something that hunt staff can always avoid.  It would appear that the Antis are attempting  to start a witch hunt in this incident

I also suspect that this fox may in the face of it been released for the purpsose of creating this video - is this actually a handled / tame fox?  Wild foxes cannot normally just be grabbed like that.

This video footage does not add up....

More anti hunt propaganda by Antis?  Its not like they havn't tried similar stunts previously

And finally the fox has already been released according to the video - surely the antis would have hung on to it for evidence if this was as not just abit of anti film making and they wished to present this?

Something smells and its not just the fox imo...


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## Fiagai (24 November 2012)

Ok went back for a forensic look

Hounds definitly not hunting

0.0 - 0.45 Huntsman gathering hounds to him - hounds not in full cry

0.45 Group of hounds milling at crossroad ie not hunting

0.49 Hounds exiting to left away from silos and where fox later "appears"

0.50-0.51 camera pans to silo - footage between horses clearly shows no fox or hounds in front of or to the right of Silos

0.52 Camera pans left around group of three horses - Fox suddenly appears in footage to the right of silos

0.53 Fox encounters hound / hound encounter fox to right of silos

0.55 Woman with video camera starts full scale panic [Comment posted with video -_Fortunately for the fox, her "guardian angel" was only feet away] _ It doesnt wash I'm afraid....


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## happyhunter123 (24 November 2012)

Unfortunately, I cannot use YouTube, so can't see this video. 

It's perfectly plausible that the pack accidentally caught a fox.  I remember catching a fox out beagling about three seasons back-obviously beagles aren't meant to be catching foxes and it was much to the irritation of the hunt staff. 

From what people are saying, it does sound a bit fishy, and we all know that the antis _love_ a bit of editing! They can be, let's say, economical when it comes to telling the truth. 
The fact they were there at the right place at the right time is a bit funny. Hmmm. And the fact that the hounds supposedly weren't even speaking! Really?

It would be good news for hunting if these people could well and truly be exposed as liars. Let's hope that they are. Otherwise, it's a damaging piece of footage, not one that can be used to gain a prosecution, but damaging non the less.


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## happyhunter123 (24 November 2012)

Ok, have seen the video now and to me it is plain and clear-the fox *hadn't* being hunted. This was not the end of a hunt. Why was everyone standing around still? Why weren't the hounds in full cry? Doesn't make sense in the slightest.


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## Jools1234 (24 November 2012)

i cant view it for some reason


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## bubbilygum (24 November 2012)

jools1234 said:



			i cant view it for some reason
		
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Jools1234 - I think the link i posted is for the "mobile" version of the video (posted on ipad, i think this is why) - the name of the video is 'FOX RESCUED FROM THE SNAPPING JAWS OF HOUNDS' if you want to search for it.

Fiagai - I hadn't considered previously that the monitors has planted the fox but this could very well be true, it does seem somewhat convenient that the fox just appears from nowhere and also appears to be just wandering around in the open in daylight... I'm no fox expert but it does seem odd.


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## Rowreach (24 November 2012)

Fiagai said:



			From this footage it is evident that:

The fox appears to have been in the vicinity of the silos when the hounds were moving around same

The hounds were not hunting at the time of the incident - see hounds behaviour / reaction before and also when hounds suddenly finding a fox behind them.  Only one hound turns back and spots the fox initialy.

I find it somewhat strange that the fox just happens to magically appear as the sab turns up with camera - this is strangely coincidential imo

The woman is able to grab the fox from hounds - if this fox was actually been hunted by hounds - she would certainly not been able to do this

Ok Foxes and hounds do encounter each other from time to time... this is not something that hunt staff can always avoid.  It would appear that the Antis are attempting  to start a witch hunt in this incident

I also suspect that this fox may in the face of it been released for the purpsose of creating this video - is this actually a handled / tame fox?  Wild foxes cannot normally just be grabbed like that.

This video footage does not add up....

More anti hunt propaganda by Antis?  Its not like they havn't tried similar stunts previously

And finally the fox has already been released according to the video - surely the antis would have hung on to it for evidence if this was as not just abit of anti film making and they wished to present this?

Something smells and its not just the fox imo...
		
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It wouldn't be the first time this has happened.  Looking through my hunting diaries I could give you time and date of a startlingly similar incident back in the 90s.  And that wouldn't be the only one.


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## Boysy (24 November 2012)

I've just watched having figured out to watch on daughters ipod. 

Either that fox was planted or it is totally deaf and blind and lost it's sense of smell, IME no way would a wild fox wander out casually into the path of any other dog. And no panic or wriggling from foxy whilst screaming abdab lady cuddles it and runs away? That lil foxy would have been fighting for it's life and biting all over had it not been handled before, they have a wicked snap when they are threatened or caught unawares no matter what has grabbed hold of them, it's back legs weren't even kicking and scrabbling?


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## happyhunter123 (24 November 2012)

bubbilygum said:



			Fiagai - I hadn't considered previously that the monitors has planted the fox but this could very well be true.
		
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The question is, would they _really_ be as stupid as to do something like that? Really? I'm not sure. I know that they've been accused of planting foxes before (e.g. in the Sinnington case) but there has never been any hard evidence. Is it a pet or tame fox? Antis are generally misguided animal lovers, but they'd probably put that behind making attacks on hunting (all for the greater good?).


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## happyhunter123 (24 November 2012)

Boysy said:



			That lil foxy would have been fighting for it's life and biting all over had it not been handled before, they have a wicked snap when they are threatened or caught unawares no matter what has grabbed hold of them, it's back legs weren't even kicking and scrabbling?
		
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It is, of course, possible that the fox was dead or nearly dead (had it been wild), no matter that they claim to have 'saved' it.


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## cptrayes (24 November 2012)

bubbilygum said:



			but I found myself quite shocked about seeing the hounds actually on a fox... Perhaps I am naive/showing my true wimpiness but I found this quite upsetting!
		
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I gave up fox hunting when I saw the reality of the chase and kill. This video may, or may not, have been "staged" but that isn't really relevant. 

I know personally of four hunts illegally hunting fox and everyone in foxhunting knows it's going on though some like to pretend that they don't.

And that video IS representative of the truth of hounds pulling a fox to pieces and it is happening on a regular basis in spite of the law. Bubbilygum, that's what the hounds do when they catch a fox, grab a piece each, and pull.  Only usually the unlucky fox that gets pulled to pieces has often been chased for a couple of miles first.

Now lets wait for all the "it usually gets away" posts, as if that makes any difference.


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## happyhunter123 (24 November 2012)

cptrayes said:



			And that video IS representative of the truth of hounds pulling a fox to pieces and it is happening on a regular basis in spite of the law. Bubbilygum, that's what the hounds do when they catch a fox, grab a piece each, and pull.  Only usually the unlucky fox that gets pulled to pieces has often been chased for a couple of miles first.
		
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Yes, but the death is quick-surely you know that? The fox wasn't pulled to pieces here, it was shaken about a bit. That is how hounds, and all dogs for that matter, kill. Death happens within seconds, there is NO protracted fight and the fox is easily outmatched. It's not how it happens, it's how quick it happens that counts. 
The claim that foxes are 'pulled to pieces' is rubbish. Yes, they are but only when dead and they are being eaten. Look at pictures of foxes killed in the Lake District, where foxes are _not_ fed to hounds and you will see that they are intact. And look at the fox at the end of this IFAW, pre ban video:
http://www.youtube.com/verify_age?next_url=/watch?v=Iyt9Os6NpYY

Ripped to bits? I think not.


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## weebarney (24 November 2012)

sweet_essence said:



			Hello Weebarney, 

Thank you for manipulating my last post and deleting some comments.

I'm hoping  the chicks being ringed (that you refer to) were held by someone with a licensed under that wildlfe act.

...and please dont assume the person that I am (judging by your febble comments - you will be way off the mark), like I dont assume the person that you maybe.   This column is not about me nor is it about you.
		
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It's not manipulating, it's called a quote. I merely point out your poor knowledge of wildlife even though you try to come across as knowing a great deal by mentioning wild life acts etc. I don't refer to any particular chicks, you only have to watch a bird wildlife programme to see birds being handled, it's not rocket science. Your theory of a fox somehow acquiring a lifelong odour of human on it, we'll that just stinks!


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## L&M (24 November 2012)

As a child I was always told never to pick up a baby bird if it had fallen out the nest, as the parents would reject it because of the human smell.....


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## weebarney (24 November 2012)

Sidney said:



			As a child I was always told never to pick up a baby bird if it had fallen out the nest, as the parents would reject it because of the human smell.....
		
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Urban myth


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## EAST KENT (24 November 2012)

That fox was released back in a safer place I am told,as for being tame,well it looked very stressed to me whilst being carried.Personally I refuse to believe that sabs would sink so low as to use a fox in this way,but by golly I do know of many Kent bagged foxes ending up being hunted up country.


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## happyhunter123 (24 November 2012)

weebarney said:



			Urban myth
		
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I was told the same thing! You learn something new every day. 
Anyway, I think this is rather moving away from the original topic.


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## weebarney (24 November 2012)

happyhunter123 said:



			I was told the same thing! You learn something new every day. 
Anyway, I think this is rather moving away from the original topic.
		
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True, just annoyed by the bold statement of not being able to release wild foxes/ animals that have been handled by a person.


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## bubbilygum (24 November 2012)

EAST KENT said:



			That fox was released back in a safer place I am told,as for being tame,well it looked very stressed to me whilst being carried.Personally I refuse to believe that sabs would sink so low as to use a fox in this way,but by golly I do know of many Kent bagged foxes ending up being hunted up country.
		
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The fox appears to be urinating when first picked up... Clearly terrified (due to hounds or human? I would say hounds but who is to know?)


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## Star_Chaser (24 November 2012)

Sorry but having watched this all I can say is how stupid and irresponsible can that woman be.  She not only put herself at risk by intervening but she also risked the fox having a swift dispatch if that was to be its fate.  If someone is monitoring it should be exactly that - observation only.

I haven't been out with the hunt since I was a child but I work hunting dogs bred to kill fox and sadly since the hunting ban I have noticed an awful change in our environment.  Foxes no longer have a breeding season where they are left in peace and protected by the local landowners with the hunt dispatching only for those who put the community at risk.  The weakest are no longer picked off by the hounds leaving the strong to maintain a healthy population instead foxes are shot willy nilly no matter what their age or condition (feeding mothers for example) often being left to survive with horrific injuries that do not kill them straight away leaving people like myself having to clean up what is left behind, a poor and suffering creature that deserved a swift kill in a season when they are not traditionally raising young.

The downside of all these 'rescues' are that there is not enough food to provide for a natural population.  I've seen foxes in winter in shocking condition purely because they are not strong enough to do more than scavenge for food.

Do you know there are more foxes killed on our roads and yet no one stops to clear them off, few stop to see if they have killed or just injured them and their remains are just left by the side of the road or middle to be squished by passing cars totally ignored by people that would otherwise raise issue with their deaths.  Next time your driving take a good look at whats left on the side of the roads killed by our cars.  Foxes, Badgers, birds of prey, rabbits, cats if your really lucky you might see a hedgehog but even they are rare these days with dwindling numbers. 

Fox hunting serves a purpose and ok its not pretty when you see a kill but it is swift and there is a reverence given to the whole process not offered by a waiting shotgun or rifle in the hands of someone with a poor shot or a passing car on a road.  

Sorry but given the choice knowing the other options I would use hounds every time.


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## swintondesire (24 November 2012)

Isnt it still illegal for foxs to be hunted still? . By all means hunting is great for the buzz but it is no longer done for good meaning to help look after the farmers stock. its is done for the fact of the chase. And there is a million and one wild animals that come into human contact and are released into the wild all over the world. The video looks abit fishy but things like that can happen and if the fox was in shock it would not fight to be away. I dont know how anyone could sit back and listen to the toucher of a poor animal for there enjoyment. just sick if you ask me.


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## cptrayes (24 November 2012)

happyhunter123 said:



			Yes, but the death is quick.
		
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It is only a quick death if you fail to include the many minutes of flight that the fox goes through in trying to outrun the hounds first. It is not a quick death my my definition. Th efox is aware of its potential death the monomet that it is put to flight.


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## combat_claire (24 November 2012)

I agree with Horseloaner. Very well written post.


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## Wot_u_c (24 November 2012)

cptrayes said:



			.......

....... It is not a quick death my my definition. Th efox is aware of its potential death the monomet that it is put to flight.
		
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How little you understand the thinking process of an animal.  That's rubbish.

Were any animal capable of the thought processes which would spell out the concept of death to them,  then they would,  as would most humans,  acquiesce and abandon flight.


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## ILuvCowparsely (25 November 2012)

bubbilygum said:



			Jools1234 - I think the link i posted is for the "mobile" version of the video (posted on ipad, i think this is why) - the name of the video is 'FOX RESCUED FROM THE SNAPPING JAWS OF HOUNDS' if you want to search for it.

Fiagai - I hadn't considered previously that the monitors has planted the fox but this could very well be true, it does seem somewhat convenient that the fox just appears from nowhere and also appears to be just wandering around in the open in daylight... I'm no fox expert but it does seem odd.
		
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 the link above at the top as mobile and desktop

yes if you click on  DESKTOP  beside mobile at the top you will view it.




Mobile | Desktop
FOX RESCUED FROM THE SNAPPING JAWS OF HOUNDS
video 	
4:17 270 likes, 12 dislikes
17,124 views
Zinfandelorganic
11/23/12


 Of course the fox could returned to the wild.  Even if handled they do release sites all the time at tiggywinckles they have release pens which make birds and animals have very little contact before returning to wild again.

 I say brave woman , might be a little risky but well done.


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## EAST KENT (25 November 2012)

Wot_u_c said:



			How little you understand the thinking process of an animal.  That's rubbish.

Were any animal capable of the thought processes which would spell out the concept of death to them,  then they would,  as would most humans,  acquiesce and abandon flight.
		
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Initially ,no,I know that it just does`nt register there is any real danger,but at the end,yes,definitely,animals defecate in fear,and that I have seen in the last minutes.The vast majority get clean away ,the few that are killed are hunted up close the once,so no preconceived idea of it`s fate can exist.
     Animals only operate on experience..i.e.   if a dog ducks to a raised hand then it has been beaten...whatever the owner says.


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## happyhunter123 (25 November 2012)

cptrayes said:



			It is only a quick death if you fail to include the many minutes of flight that the fox goes through in trying to outrun the hounds first. It is not a quick death my my definition. Th efox is aware of its potential death the monomet that it is put to flight.
		
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I'm sorry, but that isn't true. The fox is NOT aware of itself being hunted for the majority of the time. The fox runs because that is the natural response for a wild animal when faced with noise and disturbance. The sound of the horn and the hounds means little to the fox other than a noise that needs to be moved away from. The fox would do precisely the same if it met you out walking. We must remember that hounds hunt by scent, so the fox doesn't need to be close to the hounds to be hunted. And anyway, it is not a continuous run. The fox will stop many times along the way. I have seen a hunted hare stop and lick herself, and take a nibble of grass for a minute or so, before bounding along again when she heard the hounds. 
You tend to find that the foxes you catch are not the ones that run in a straight line and cover the most distance-these more often than not get away. It is the foxes that take shorter, but more wiggling and winding routes that get caught by hounds, and foxes are often caught when they stop in a piece of covert and think that they are safe, or if they make a mistake and run back towards the hounds.

It cannot, as far as we are aware perceive death. 

I hope that clears things up for you!


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## Sarah Sum1 (25 November 2012)

I don't think what the fox feels, percieves or thinks about can be debated.  It's not possible to know.

I used to get so angry at the thought of foxhunting.  It wasn't until I joined this forum, that I learnt nothing is black and white. 

I don't agree with fox hunting with hounds, but refrain from having too much of an opinion because I really don't know all the facts.


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## Star_Chaser (25 November 2012)

Leviathan said:



			Of course the fox could returned to the wild.  Even if handled they do release sites all the time at tiggywinckles they have release pens which make birds and animals have very little contact before returning to wild again.

 I say brave woman , might be a little risky but well done.
		
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I really hate to point this out but there is no WILD in the UK all the land is managed in one form or another.  We no longer have a natural predator for the fox and therefore they have to be managed.  Its the same for many of our wild species both natural and introduced like the red and grey squirrel as an example.  

Its a misconception to think that a fox is returned to the wild, its not its returned to an area of managed land that has multiple uses usually without the permission of the landowner.  In our area for an example we have foxes released regularly by well meaning 'rescues' away from the towns that they originally came from and released into areas where there are small holdings many of which have chickens, geese, pet rabbits etc which is a food source for these 'wild' animals sadly they rarely survive very long and either die at the hands of livestock owner whose sick of losing their birds or childrens pets or they starve or are killed on the roads.  They are also territorial so fights amongst newly introduced foxes into a managed population can also do more harm than good.

I do wish people would think a little more carefully our land management requires making decisions that we do not wish to take but have to to maintain a balance.


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## cptrayes (25 November 2012)

Wot_u_c said:



			How little you understand the thinking process of an animal.  That's rubbish.

Were any animal capable of the thought processes which would spell out the concept of death to them,  then they would,  as would most humans,  acquiesce and abandon flight.
		
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Why on earth would they abandon flight? Most humans do NOT aquiesce or we would not have had two world wars and humans that I know do not abandon flight in the face of overwhelming danger either. 




happyhunter123 said:



			I'm sorry, but that isn't true. The fox is NOT aware of itself being hunted for the majority of the time. The fox runs because that is the natural response for a wild animal when faced with noise and disturbance. The sound of the horn and the hounds means little to the fox other than a noise that needs to be moved away from.
		
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When I hunted fox, the fox ran because it had a pack of hounds in sight behind it. It had its ears pinned flat to its head and it was running for its life. And when the hounds caught it they tore it to shreds.

Plenty of foxes are perfectly well aware of being hunted, and all those that are killed are aware of being hunted, if only at the end stage of the hunt.





			It cannot, as far as we are aware perceive death.
		
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That may be your belief. It is not mine. I believe all pray animals are aware of the concept of dying at the hands of a predator. They are not aware of the state of being dead, but that does not mean that they do not fear the process of becoming dead.




			I hope that clears things up for you!
		
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I hope you can stop being patronising now


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## Sarah Sum1 (25 November 2012)

I too, do not believe that there are many living beings that would just 'acquiesce' and accept death in a situation where you are being chased.  There is either fight or flight in most cases and the will for any being to cling onto life is more powerful than the urge to stop, accept and give up would be.

Not sure where you got your info on most humans doing so.  Humans are remarkable in their will to survive, as are most living beings.


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## ILuvCowparsely (25 November 2012)

horseloaner said:



			I really hate to point this out but there is no WILD in the UK all the land is managed in one form or another..
		
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 Just because humans  have * taken over* the land and laid  * so called claim to it* and are destroying the land with buildings refineries etc does not mean  we own it mother nature created the land sea and air for animals/ mammals etc to run free as they choose too.  She can destroy it too 

Wild is wild means not domesticated.


 Are you saying birds cannot be set free into the air because we claim it  with planes helicopters etc?? NO!.   

.




			We no longer have a natural predator for the fox and therefore they have to be managed..
		
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  that is because humans have destroyed them all or they died out in the past  by mother nature.  



			Its a misconception to think that a fox is returned to the wild, its not its returned to an area of managed land
		
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   As I said which humans have chosen to use for their means




			In our area for an example we have foxes released regularly by well meaning 'rescues' away from the towns that they originally came from and released into areas where there are small holdings many of which have chickens, geese, pet rabbits etc which is a food source for these 'wild' animals sadly they rarely survive very long and either die at the hands of livestock owner whose sick of losing their birds or childrens pets or they starve or are killed on the roads.
		
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 Well that goes for every animal in the land where humans live close to nature  , deaths happen.


 Bears
 wolves
 tiger
lions 
coyote

 all have killed humans dogs etc because humans have encroached close to where they live




			They are also territorial so fights amongst newly introduced foxes into a managed population can also do more harm than good.
		
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  Well that is mother natures way  survival of the fittest





			I do wish people would think a little more carefully our land
		
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 We human's might think its *our * land but every living creature alive to day places some part in the eco system . We humans  destroy the balance in so many ways.



Bringing  creature to uk which our not native Like the squirrel as u per say.

Killing of endangered species like rhino 

 Yes we try to preserve some species which would other wise die out.


 At6 the end of the day if it had not been for humans  with their hounds flushing out this fox it would have carried out its life as nature intended


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## weebarney (25 November 2012)

horseloaner said:



			I really hate to point this out but there is no WILD in the UK all the land is managed in one form or another.  We no longer have a natural predator for the fox and therefore they have to be managed.  Its the same for many of our wild species both natural and introduced like the red and grey squirrel as an example.  

Its a misconception to think that a fox is returned to the wild, its not its returned to an area of managed land that has multiple uses usually without the permission of the landowner.  In our area for an example we have foxes released regularly by well meaning 'rescues' away from the towns that they originally came from and released into areas where there are small holdings many of which have chickens, geese, pet rabbits etc which is a food source for these 'wild' animals sadly they rarely survive very long and either die at the hands of livestock owner whose sick of losing their birds or childrens pets or they starve or are killed on the roads.  They are also territorial so fights amongst newly introduced foxes into a managed population can also do more harm than good.

I do wish people would think a little more carefully our land management requires making decisions that we do not wish to take but have to to maintain a balance.
		
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definaition of a wild animal -Wildlife includes all non-domesticated plants, animals and other organisms. Just because humans poke their nose in does not make somewhere or something not wild.


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## weebarney (25 November 2012)

oh my god the people who are on here who believe animals are so stupid they arent aware of death are seriously deluded. If people or animals were not aware of the threat of death or serious injury then we would all have died out very quickly.


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## Gingerwitch (25 November 2012)

Sorry the whole video just does not make sence to me - and i sit on the fence where hunting is.

The fox looks drugged or tame to me.... it looks like it has just been shoved down on the ground and is totally bemused at where it is.

I think the hounds were exceptionally well behaved - try and get a rat off our pair or jack russells and you would have had more fuss.

Nothing adds up - it just does not


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## happyhunter123 (25 November 2012)

When I hunted fox, the fox ran because it had a pack of hounds in sight behind it. It had its ears pinned flat to its head and it was running for its life. And when the hounds caught it they tore it to shreds.
		
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Well if it was terrified when being hunted, surely it wouldn't produce a scent? When a fox gets a fright, for example if a foot follower steps out in front of it and it is headed it stops producing scent, a useful survival adaption. I think its due to the rush of adrenaline. A 'terrified' fox would therefore not produce a scent. 

As for having the pack in sight behind it, surely as an ex foxhunter you would know that that is not always the case. The fox can be a good distance ahead of the pack, except when it is found or if it about to be caught. It doesn't need to be very close because hounds hunt by scent, not sight! 




			That may be your belief. It is not mine. I believe all pray animals are aware of the concept of dying at the hands of a predator. They are not aware of the state of being dead, but that does not mean that they do not fear the process of becoming dead.
		
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It's not really my 'belief'-scientists think that no animals except for cetaceans and some primates can preconceive death.  But yes, they are all adapted to run from danger, and they do it on a daily basis.


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## happyhunter123 (25 November 2012)

weebarney said:



			definaition of a wild animal -Wildlife includes all non-domesticated plants, animals and other organisms. Just because humans poke their nose in does not make somewhere or something not wild.
		
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You could, of course, argue that we haven't poked our noses in and that we, as animals are part of nature already! Anyway...

That is true, but so much of land on earth is human created or human managed. Pretty much everywhere in the UK is human created and human managed. As much as you might like to believe that the countryside around you is 'wild' it isn't. Was it wild, everywhere would be oak-ash woodland. Much land still is woodland, but those woodlands are still maintained and managed by us.  
Just because habitats are managed by humans doesn't mean that they aren't healthy, bio-diverse areas. For example, if humans take a few large trees out of a forest, a wide variety of small plants, supporting a wider range of animal species. The forest is therefore a better habitat. It's the same with heather moorland, which exists in most places thanks to man. Now, you could take the 'hands off' approach to all of these areas, but you would lose much biodiversity. It's the same with sand dunes. Those managing sand dunes graze them with ponies to prevent the growth of shrub. In true 'nature', the shrub would grow and the rare and delicate species that require open dune to survive would dramatically decrease in number. 

A hands off approach to all habitat and species management in this particular country could never work-everywhere is human modified and controlled. What I'm ultimately trying to put across is that controlling species isn't necessarily a bad thing.

 Manage fox numbers and you protect ground nesting birds etc. In a truly 'unmodified' environment, foxes probably wouldn't be quite as common or as successful as they have been. Foxhunting has had a role to play in this, in the 1800s, we released foxes across the countryside for hunting, and we have always maintained coverts for them to live in so that they can be found easily. That probably isn't a bad thing, it's certainly good for the species, provided that we then control those numbers to ensure that the population is sustainable and is not causing damage to livestock. In fox hunting, you don't want numbers too high anyway because hounds will change foxes too easily. It is beneficial both for us, the farmers and other wildlife to regulate that population. 

Foxes have a very important part to play in our ecosystems, but in the environment that we live in management of numbers by any method (not just hunting) can be beneficial to the fox as a species overall (maybe not individuals) and to other species. The fox isn't and never will be in danger of extinction, and so therefore in my view, it is acceptable to manage its population. was it a rare creature, no, of course it wouldn't be right to kill it for our own, or any other species' gain. 

Of course, then there are the human impacts from fox predation to think about but that is another matter. 
This isn't just a defense of hunting, more a defense of control and management of populations (by any means) as a whole. Those who believe we should just leave foxes alone are anti-shooting or trapping them as well. 
Sorry if I've gone completely off topic!!


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## cptrayes (25 November 2012)

happyhunter123 said:



			Well if it was terrified when being hunted, surely it wouldn't produce a scent?
		
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Does it stop and have a shower before it runs away from the hounds?




			When a fox gets a fright, for example if a foot follower steps out in front of it and it is headed it stops producing scent,
		
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And your proof of that? And even if it is correct, I think you'll find that bloodhounds hunt the clean boot, and probably one on a human who also had a shower that morning, but certainly one which is not the least afraid of being killed. All mammals leave scent whether they intend to or not.





			A 'terrified' fox would therefore not produce a scent.
		
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I expect even the died in the wool fox hunters are pissing themselves laughing at this explanation 





			As for having the pack in sight behind it, surely as an ex foxhunter you would know that that is not always the case.
		
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Did I say it was always the case? Of course it is not always the case. But it is often the case and it is 100% of times the  case whenever hounds kill a fox.  You said the fox was not aware of being hunted. It frequently is.





			It's not really my 'belief'-scientists think that no animals except for cetaceans and some primates can preconceive death.  But yes, they are all adapted to run from danger, and they do it on a daily basis.
		
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It is your belief, you have said so. It is also the belief of some scientists. 

They are not adapted to run "from danger".  They would not run from a dangerous cliff edge, a poisonous toad, etc etc. I believe that their behaviour is that they are programmed to fear things which it will help their survival to run from and the fear is what makes them run from those and not other dangers.

Note also that I did not say that any animals can preconceive death. It is my personal belief that no animals can preconceive the idea of being dead, pricipally because no animals  other than man appear to make any preparations for being dead, like leaving their relatives their food stores. 

It is however my belief that there is lots of evidence that animals fear the process of being killed, and that evidence is in the extreme actions that they will take to avoid it when cues are presented to them that there is a danger that it may happen. My belief is that does not require an understanding of death to fear being eaten by a predator.


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## cptrayes (25 November 2012)

happyhunter123 said:



			A hands off approach to all habitat and species management in this particular country could never work
		
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Of course it would work.

It just wouldn't look like we humans want the countryside to look like.

And humans aren't actually required for the planet to survive, it would all go on perfectly happily without us, in fact probably a good deal MORE happily for all the other creatures on the planet barring a few pampered pandas and the like.


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## happyhunter123 (25 November 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Does it stop and have a shower before it runs away from the hounds?

And your proof of that? And even if it is correct, I think you'll find that bloodhounds hunt the clean boot, and probably one on a human who also had a shower that morning, but certainly one which is not the least afraid of being killed. All animals leave scent whether they intend to or not.

.
		
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You clearly have never come across the phenomena of 'heading' a fox. I have, when foot following and encountered the wrath of the master! The fox then appears to discontinue leaving a scent-the hounds cannot hunt it.  I'm sure there are plenty of people who can back this up for me that this does actually happen! If it isn't fear that makes it 'turn off' its scent, can you explain to me what happens?


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## happyhunter123 (25 November 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Of course it would work.

It just wouldn't look like we humans want the countryside to look like.

And humans aren't actually required for the planet to survive, it would all go on perfectly happily without us, in fact probably a good deal MORE happily for all the other creatures on the planet barring a few pampered pandas and the like.
		
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So are you saying that you would disagree with all species management (plants included) by humans, or can you see any benefit in it (leaving aside hunting, a very very tiny part in the overall topic)? Would you rather an 'unmanaged' countryside? It is most certainly an interesting debate.


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## cptrayes (25 November 2012)

happyhunter123 said:



			You clearly have never come across the phenomena of 'heading' a fox. I have, when foot following and encountered the wrath of the master! The fox then appears to discontinue leaving a scent-the hounds cannot hunt it.  I'm sure there are plenty of people who can back this up for me that this does actually happen! If it isn't fear that makes it 'turn off' its scent, can you explain to me what happens?
		
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Can you explain to me how the fox takes a shower? Would you want it lying on your bed at home? I have an aquaintance with "clean" pet foxes that live in the house. They stink to high heaven. A human could scent them, never mind a dog.


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## happyhunter123 (25 November 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Can you explain to me how the fox takes a shower? Would you want it lying on your bed at home? I have an aquaintance with pet foxes that live in the house. They stink to high heaven. A human could scent them, never mind a dog.
		
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Well then why does it happen? How does it stop producing scent? I'm no expert on scent, but I know it happens! 
The topic of scent is a mysterious one. Scent can come and go, as you'll know if you've had a bad scenting day out hunting.


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## cptrayes (25 November 2012)

happyhunter123 said:



			So are you saying that you would disagree with all species management (plants included) by humans, or can you see any benefit in it (leaving aside hunting, a very very tiny part in the overall topic)? Would you rather an 'unmanaged' countryside? It is most certainly an interesting debate.
		
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No, I am making no judgment on how the countryside is managed. I am merely tell you that you were entirely incorrect when you said




			A hands off approach to all habitat and species management in this particular country could never work
		
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I personally like the countryside around me just as it is. And there has been no organised fox hunting here in over 20 years.


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## cptrayes (25 November 2012)

happyhunter123 said:



			Well then why does it happen? How does it stop producing scent? I'm no expert on scent, but I know it happens! 

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You don't know it happens. You only know that the hounds lost the fox scent. Do your hounds never lose scent of the fox at any other time? Of course they do. It's probably completely coincidental.






			The topic of scent is a mysterious one. Scent can come and go, as you'll know if you've had a bad scenting day out hunting.
		
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Entirely the point that I am making.


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## happyhunter123 (25 November 2012)

cptrayes said:



			No, I am making no judgment on how the countryside is managed. 
I personally like the countryside around me just as it is. And there has been no organised fox hunting here in over 20 years.
		
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But I'm talking about the general management of the countryside. The countryside around you is most definitely managed-people fell certain trees, control rabbits etc, just like everywhere. A 'hands-off' approach won't have been taken. I did say that I wasn't talking exclusively about hunting!




cptrayes said:



			You don't know it happens. You only know that the hounds lost the fox scent. Do your hounds never lose scent of the fox at any other time? Of course they do. It's probably completely coincidental.
		
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Yes, I and most experienced in hunting know that it happens. It is *not* coincidental! 

Anyway, enough arguing-you aren't going to a. agree or b. believe me, so it's barely worthwhile 
We have moved too far away from the previous topic which was about one particular incident.


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## EAST KENT (25 November 2012)

happyhunter123 said:



			You clearly have never come across the phenomena of 'heading' a fox. I have, when foot following and encountered the wrath of the master! The fox then appears to discontinue leaving a scent-the hounds cannot hunt it.  I'm sure there are plenty of people who can back this up for me that this does actually happen! If it isn't fear that makes it 'turn off' its scent, can you explain to me what happens?
		
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  Speaking as someone who inadvertantly did just that ,I can assure you the pack heel lined a wee bit ,forward cast,and carried on in full cry.Maybe our Kent foxes are unique


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## happyhunter123 (25 November 2012)

EAST KENT said:



			Speaking as someone who inadvertantly did just that ,I can assure you the pack heel lined a wee bit ,forward cast,and carried on in full cry.Maybe our Kent foxes are unique

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Maybe they are... 

Anyway, I think that it is important to steer this thread back towards the original topic, and that was this particular film.
Obviously, a few people are wondering about how 'real' this piece of footage is. I think it is maybe a little far fetched to suggest that this is a set-up, but then again with these people you never know. What's certain is that the antis have been trying hard to make this a news story (did they get it on the local BBC news?) and publicise this as much as possible. That isn't great publicity for us. 

_If_ (and I emphasise that) this was a 'set-up' then we must make a *very concerted effort to prove it as such*. It would potentially be disastrous for the antis, and it would destroy any credibility that they have. The consequences would be far reaching. We know for certain that this wasn't a case of illegal hunting-even if the pack had been hunting illegally during the rest of that day, this was very clearly an accident. 

Here is what most probably happened: the fox was probably lying up in bales (or something of the sort) around the farm. When the pack arrived, the fox might have left the bales, and been spotted by the two couple or so that appeared in the video. They grabbed him and antis just happened to be there and 'rescued' it. The only thing that doesn't add up in that is the antis being in the right place at the right time! 

This is what was on the BBC News Website: In a statement, the Old Berkshire hunt said no foxes were hunted on 14 November when the footage was filmed, and rejected any suggestion that it broke the law.

It added: "A fox appeared in a farmyard with five stray hounds and was jumped on by animal rights activists."


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## weebarney (25 November 2012)

There is no way someone who was anti hunting would release a fox near some hounds for a publicity stunt. Definately onto a looser trying to prove the opposite. If the hunt people werent looking for the fox why were they hanging about there?


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## happyhunter123 (25 November 2012)

weebarney said:



			There is no way someone who was anti hunting would release a fox near some hounds for a publicity stunt. Definately onto a looser trying to prove the opposite. If the hunt people werent looking for the fox why were they hanging about there?
		
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I am inclined to agree with you. It would seem like complete idiocy to me. They do like their stunts, but surely this would be going too far?  There is, however something wrong about this whole incident-anyone who knows anything about hunting could tell you that. 

What do you mean, why were they hanging around there? Probably, because they were hunting in the area. Foxes are a very common species and it's hard to go to a bit of countryside where they aren't! They weren't even in covert, they were in a farmyard. 
It was an accident, the pack _weren't_ in full cry, and most of the hounds weren't there.


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## weebarney (25 November 2012)

happyhunter123 said:



			I am inclined to agree with you. It would seem like complete idiocy to me. There is, however something wrong about this whole incident. 

What do you mean, why were they hanging around there? Probably, because they were hunting in the area. Foxes are a very common species and it's hard to go to a bit of countryside where they aren't! They weren't even in covert, they were in a farmyard. 
It was an accident, the pack _weren't_ in full cry, and most of the hounds weren't there.
		
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Just say this as its been stated they were not hunting the fox,  to imply the observers had put it there. Looked to me like they all knew there was a fox in their somewhere.


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## Fiagai (25 November 2012)

happyhunter123 said:



			Well then why does it happen? How does it stop producing scent? I'm no expert on scent, but I know it happens! 
The topic of scent is a mysterious one. Scent can come and go, as you'll know if you've had a bad scenting day out hunting.
		
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hh - scent  is the distinctive musky odor a fox leaves on the ground, grass, foliage, and in the air. 

The scent left behind by a fox and hence scenting conditions can vary with weather, vegetation and ground conditions.  A windy day, wet or warm conditions all effect how much scent there is on a given day...

If you have ever handled a fox or been in the vicinity of a foxes earth it is appreciate how musky a foxes scent is.


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## Fiagai (25 November 2012)

weebarney said:



			There is no way someone who was anti hunting would release a fox near some hounds for a publicity stunt. Definately onto a looser trying to prove the opposite. If the hunt people werent looking for the fox why were they hanging about there?
		
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The "hunt people" were in a farm yard, hunting quite often involves stops.  In this instance it looks like hounds lost the trail they were following hence the huntsman calling hounds and hounds milling around aimlessly. Why would the hunt be looking for a fox in a farmyard? hardly the type of place foxes would hang out if they were lying low... 

Similar instances have happened previously with Antis planting evidence.  Whichever I find the video footage very dubious at best.   Importantly Why do we have an Anti filming a silo followed by another anti filming the Anti filming the silo?

I dont get this tbh.


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## weebarney (25 November 2012)

Fiagai said:



			The "hunt people" were in a farm yard, hunting quite often involves stops.  In this instance it looks like hounds lost the trail they were following hence the huntsman calling hounds and hounds milling around aimlessly. Why would the hunt be looking for a fox in a farmyard? hardly the type of place foxes would hang out if they were lying low... 

Similar instances have happened previously with Antis planting evidence.  Whichever I find the video footage very dubious at best.   Importantly Why do we have an Anti filming a silo followed by another anti filming the Anti filming the silo?

I dont get this tbh.
		
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ive only watched it once but im sure they are wearing bodycams (at least the on that picks it up is)so they are filming in the direction they are facing, nothing more than that.


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## happyhunter123 (25 November 2012)

Fiagai said:



			Similar instances have happened previously with Antis planting evidence.  Whichever I find the video footage very dubious at best.   Importantly Why do we have an Anti filming a silo followed by another anti filming the Anti filming the silo?

I dont get this tbh.
		
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I know antis have been _ accused_ of setting us up before, but sadly there has been little hard evidence to back this up 
If there was, the damage to them (if we got the story in the press) would be tremendous. Any ounce of credibility would be vanquished.


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## Fiagai (25 November 2012)

happyhunter123 said:



			I know antis have been _ accused_ of setting us up before, but sadly there has been little hard evidence to back this up 
If there was, the damage to them (if we got the story in the press) would be tremendous. Any ounce of credibility would be vanquished.
		
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Agreed and if that is the case I hope the thruth comes out.   There is another scenario that hounds encountered the fox that was there and that had to decide to leg it out of the farmyard. 

It is nearly impossibible to always avoid encountering a fox.  Hounds dont know otherwise and will react if they litterly run into a fox.

From the footage of the hunstman and hounds it is obvious that the hounds are not hunting.  The hunt have released a statement to back this up.


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## Hunters (26 November 2012)

How do you get a hound to tell the difference between a scent trailed & a real fox scent?

Answer = impossible

Therefore, accidents are inevitable. Likewise, you are unlikely to convert an anti to pro hunting, or vice versa.


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## happyhunter123 (26 November 2012)

Hunters said:



			How do you get a hound to tell the difference between a scent trailed & a real fox scent?

Answer = impossible

Therefore, accidents are inevitable. Likewise, you are unlikely to convert an anti to pro hunting, or vice versa.
		
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in regards to antis, that is, thankfully not always the case. Look at ex-LACS head Jim Barrington. It is easier, I'd reckon, to convert an anti to a pro. 
Accidents will always be inevitable-hounds will always find and chop foxes/hares.


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## Orangehorse (26 November 2012)

Foxes do tend to hang out in farmyards, like in a nice large pile of big bales or in a hay barn.


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## cptrayes (26 November 2012)

Hunters said:



			How do you get a hound to tell the difference between a scent trailed & a real fox scent?

Answer = impossible

Therefore, accidents are inevitable. Likewise, you are unlikely to convert an anti to pro hunting, or vice versa.
		
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This video does look like a genuine accident to me, perhaps with a sick/dozy fox hanging around in a farmyard. But although accidents like it are probably inevitable, I would say that they should be extremely rare. 

The answer to your question about telling the difference between a trailed scent and a real scent is that the humans with them tell them not to chase the real scent. 

I have drag hunted for 6 1/2 seasons in total and on not one occasion have our hounds ever caught a fox, and nor have they ever chased a fox for longer than it took the Huntsman to call them off, perhaps half a minute. They often pick up the scent. They never follow it once they have been called off/headed off by the whips and Huntsman.


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## happyhunter123 (26 November 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I have drag hunted for 6 seasons in total and on not one occasion have our hounds ever caught a fox, and nor have they ever chased a fox for longer than it took the Huntsman to call them off, perhaps half a minute. They often pick up the scent. They never follow it once they have been called off/headedoff by the whips and Huntsman.
		
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Are you sure that they have never chopped a fox-its perfectly possible I would imagine? Especially a sick one. Like I said, we caught a fox beagling once, so obviously accidents can and do happen. We routinely hunt foxes out beagling (beagles are heedless creatures) and frequently hunt deer our foxhunting as well, so it clearly isn't always easy for staff to get hounds off. I expect that they probably wish that it was. 
Anyway, it make no difference as this was *clearly* unintentional. The hounds were not hunting the fox prior to catching it.

Out of interest, and this is irrelevant I know, which draghound pack do you hunt with?


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## Hunters (27 November 2012)

The drag packs do not hunt a fox based scent. The fox hounds do. The clue is in the name fox hound.

FOX hounds continue to follow fox based scent as:

A) They have been bred that way meticulously for generations.

B) If there ever should be an appeal, hunting a 'proper ' fox scent will be easy.

But that is why there are not 'accidents' on the drag hunt field..


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## cptrayes (27 November 2012)

Hunters said:



			The drag packs do not hunt a fox based scent. The fox hounds do. The clue is in the name fox hound.

FOX hounds continue to follow fox based scent as:

A) They have been bred that way meticulously for generations.

B) If there ever should be an appeal, hunting a 'proper ' fox scent will be easy.

But that is why there are not 'accidents' on the drag hunt field..
		
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Don't be daft  !

We hunt FOX hounds.

And they chase FOX scent, often. They often get much more excited by fox scent than what we lay, you can hear it when they find.

And they get called off, and respond. 

The only difference is that packs that are deliberately hunting fox aren't taught the same level of discipline about being called off the scent, which is why fox packs get complaints about tresass and drag packs don't.


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## cptrayes (27 November 2012)

happyhunter123 said:



			Are you sure that they have never chopped a fox-its perfectly possible I would imagine? Especially a sick one.
		
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I have never seen them and I rarely lose sight of the hounds, I am right behind the Field Master and the Huntsman is normally in view.

We find a scent often, we just don't allow them to follow it.






			Out of interest, and this is irrelevant I know, which draghound pack do you hunt with?
		
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I hunt with Cheshire Farmers, am a subscriber to North East Cheshire, and have previously drag hunted with Berks and Bucks and fox hunted with the Curre, The Berkely and the Duke of Beaufort




			Anyway, it make no difference as this was *clearly* unintentional. The hounds were not hunting the fox prior to catching it.
		
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Completely agree, have already said so very early on. Even our hounds would have taken a dozy fox half asleep by a farm track.  Personally I think the thing was probably sick and the hounds should have been allowed to put it out of its misery.


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## combat_claire (27 November 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Don't be daft  !

We hunt FOX hounds.
		
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Hounds usually get drafted to a drag pack because they are a bit thick...


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## cptrayes (27 November 2012)

combat_claire said:



			Hounds usually get drafted to a drag pack because they are a bit thick...
		
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Bollox.

We breed ours, won three out of 4 classes at Peterborough and sell the ones that don't have the discipline for it to Fox Packs


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## combat_claire (27 November 2012)

I suspect that your pack is in the minority. Certainly round here the Cambridge University Drag have in recent years taken hounds that have proved unsuitable for their roles with the Southwold and Fitzwilliam to name but two packs. 

They certainly weren't the cream of the crop that was set to hunt the drag that I was laying last season as at least half of the pack were running mute and the remainder were coursing me by sight! I put in a slight double back on one line and it completely foxed them.

As hounds are not permitted to be bought and sold on the open market, I'm sure the MFHA would be most interested in your claims to be selling houndsto foxhound packs.


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## cptrayes (27 November 2012)

combat_claire said:



			I suspect that your pack is in the minority. .
		
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What, both of them? Both breed their own.  Both lay pretty much the full leg before putting the hounds onto the scent so they are not coursing by sight. And the lines are frequently doubled back to allow the field take maximum opportuinity to jump hedges. Sounds like the one you laid lines for was the odd one to me. 



ps I was pulling your plonker about selling them to a fox pack CC!


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## JanetGeorge (27 November 2012)

happyhunter123 said:



			in regards to antis, that is, thankfully not always the case. Look at ex-LACS head Jim Barrington. It is easier, I'd reckon, to convert an anti to a pro.
		
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Only if they're 'decent' antis!  And Jim Barrington IS a decent man!  He swallowed the anti-hunt propaganda when he was young, started as a sab, but didn't like the way the sabs did things.  So he got involved with LACS and worked his way up!

There were a number of things that led to his final 'conversion' - not least being the discovery that not only were 'his' side lying to the press and anyone else who would listen - they also lied to HIM!  (He was mortally embarrassed when he saw what REALLY happened with the 'Quantocks incident' - and not what the LACS video showed!)


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## shannonandtay (27 November 2012)

Sarah Sum1 said:



			I too, do not believe that there are many living beings that would just 'acquiesce' and accept death in a situation where you are being chased.  There is either fight or flight in most cases and the will for any being to cling onto life is more powerful than the urge to stop, accept and give up would be.

Not sure where you got your info on most humans doing so.  Humans are remarkable in their will to survive, as are most living beings.
		
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Exactly, why do most humans and animals fight for their lives when being attacked.  Where is all this nonsense coming from its laughable.


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## EAST KENT (27 November 2012)

Absolute rubbish!Any living thing fights tooth and nail to survive,never heard such tosh.


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## happyhunter123 (27 November 2012)

JanetGeorge said:



			Only if they're 'decent' antis!  And Jim Barrington IS a decent man!  He swallowed the anti-hunt propaganda when he was young, started as a sab, but didn't like the way the sabs did things.  So he got involved with LACS and worked his way up!

There were a number of things that led to his final 'conversion' - not least being the discovery that not only were 'his' side lying to the press and anyone else who would listen - they also lied to HIM!  (He was mortally embarrassed when he saw what REALLY happened with the 'Quantocks incident' - and not what the LACS video showed!)
		
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Indeed, he is a decent man. If every anti were as decent as him, OK, they might not all become staunchly pro hunting, but they would at least listen and consider 'the other side'. If they could see hunting people as normal people that we are, not 'toffee nosed, sadistic scum' then that would go a long, long way. If only they could understand why we enjoy hunting really.
That doesn't mean that they would necessarily agree with the practice of hunting, but if they were able listen to us, and engage in calm, sensible debate then it might help. I'd much rather they saw us as decent, but misguided people than monsters. 
Sadly, I guess that's beyond them. Half of being 'anti-hunting' is hating the people involved in it.


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## Moomin1 (27 November 2012)

Fiagai said:



			From this footage it is evident that:

The fox appears to have been in the vicinity of the silos when the hounds were moving around same

The hounds were not hunting at the time of the incident - see hounds behaviour / reaction before and also when hounds suddenly finding a fox behind them.  Only one hound turns back and spots the fox initialy.

I find it somewhat strange that the fox just happens to magically appear as the sab turns up with camera - this is strangely coincidential imo

The woman is able to grab the fox from hounds - if this fox was actually been hunted by hounds - she would certainly not been able to do this

Ok Foxes and hounds do encounter each other from time to time... this is not something that hunt staff can always avoid.  It would appear that the Antis are attempting  to start a witch hunt in this incident

I also suspect that this fox may in the face of it been released for the purpsose of creating this video - is this actually a handled / tame fox?  Wild foxes cannot normally just be grabbed like that.

This video footage does not add up....

More anti hunt propaganda by Antis?  Its not like they havn't tried similar stunts previously

And finally the fox has already been released according to the video - surely the antis would have hung on to it for evidence if this was as not just abit of anti film making and they wished to present this?

Something smells and its not just the fox imo...
		
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I do myself wonder if that fox is actually a tame fox.  I most certainly have never been able to grab a fox like that unless it has been nigh on dead already.


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## 4x4 (27 November 2012)

Well I can't make it work!


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## Uraeus (27 November 2012)

This woman has no right to be in the countryside. Let nature take its cause and get something constructive to worry about. Does she think she's helping or making a difference? Half the time the fox isn't even caught.


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## weebarney (27 November 2012)

Uraeus said:



			This woman has no right to be in the countryside. Let nature take its cause and get something constructive to worry about. Does she think she's helping or making a difference? Half the time the fox isn't even caught.
		
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Excuse me ? She has no right to be in the countryside? What are you talking about? You're making yourself look very dumb.


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## Foxhunter49 (27 November 2012)

It all looks like a complete set up. 

The quality of the video is very poor. 
There is no sign of the fox actually moving. When the woman has it in her arms at no point does it move its head or its mouth. The film shows her only from behind.

I have seen this before - way before the ban. 

I has been on the IOW and was travelling back to work on the mainland. I noticed two young teen girls, who should have been at school, walking along the road carrying what I thought was a cat but as they got closer I saw it was a fox.  
I was waiting at a junction and had plenty of time to observe them and as they got closer I realised that the fox was obviously dead as it never moved at all.

A couple of days later I was talking to a friend who told me that there was a to do over the killing of a 'pet' fox belonging to two girls. Hounds had killed it when they had it out and they had been on the local news.

I put two and two together. I did not know the girls but it was very coincidental that I had seem them and the two girls with the 'pet' fox had come from the town I had been in.
The Hunt was across the other side of the Island, the girls should have been in school and their father was a leading anti on the Island.

The protests were thick and strong and when I called the producer of the programme and pointed out the faults they didn't want to know. So, the anti's sink pretty low to put out bad press for the hunts.

The fact that the film is such bad quality, the fact that the fox does not move, the fact that they did not show it being released, the fact that hounds were not really that interested in it, had they been then they would have been all over her, makes me believe it was a dead fox defrosted especially for the occasion. .


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## bubbilygum (27 November 2012)

Foxhunter49 said:



			It all looks like a complete set up. 

The quality of the video is very poor. 
There is no sign of the fox actually moving. When the woman has it in her arms at no point does it move its head or its mouth. The film shows her only from behind.

I have seen this before - way before the ban. 

I has been on the IOW and was travelling back to work on the mainland. I noticed two young teen girls, who should have been at school, walking along the road carrying what I thought was a cat but as they got closer I saw it was a fox.  
I was waiting at a junction and had plenty of time to observe them and as they got closer I realised that the fox was obviously dead as it never moved at all.

A couple of days later I was talking to a friend who told me that there was a to do over the killing of a 'pet' fox belonging to two girls. Hounds had killed it when they had it out and they had been on the local news.

I put two and two together. I did not know the girls but it was very coincidental that I had seem them and the two girls with the 'pet' fox had come from the town I had been in.
The Hunt was across the other side of the Island, the girls should have been in school and their father was a leading anti on the Island.

The protests were thick and strong and when I called the producer of the programme and pointed out the faults they didn't want to know. So, the anti's sink pretty low to put out bad press for the hunts.

The fact that the film is such bad quality, the fact that the fox does not move, the fact that they did not show it being released, the fact that hounds were not really that interested in it, had they been then they would have been all over her, makes me believe it was a dead fox defrosted especially for the occasion. .
		
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Sorry, no, the fox moves LOTS - there is absolutely no way this fox is not alive.


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## weebarney (27 November 2012)

Foxhunter49 said:



			The fact that the film is such bad quality, the fact that the fox does not move, the fact that they did not show it being released, the fact that hounds were not really that interested in it, had they been then they would have been all over her, makes me believe it was a dead fox defrosted especially for the occasion. .
		
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Shoud've gone to specksavers!


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## Charem (27 November 2012)

I agree the fox is definately alive however there is something clearly wrong with it. Whether it has been drugged, is tame or very sick I don't know but there is no way a normal healthy fox would be happily milling round with hounds that close by.

The hounds were not hunting it infact they looked positively bemused when they finally realised there was a fox there.

That woman was an idiot, no question about it and again back to the fox there's no way you could pick up and carry a healthy fox like that. She was carrying it like it was a baby, it had free rein of its head and neck and in usual circumstances it would be biting the hell out of the woman. Instead it just sat there. At no point did I see the fox bite her, when she starts saying it's biting her she has her back to the camera.

All very dodgy to me. Personally I wouldn't put it past sabs to plant a foxlike that but who knows ey....


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## Moomin1 (27 November 2012)

Charem said:



			I agree the fox is definately alive however there is something clearly wrong with it. Whether it has been drugged, is tame or very sick I don't know but there is no way a normal healthy fox would be happily milling round with hounds that close by.

The hounds were not hunting it infact they looked positively bemused when they finally realised there was a fox there.

That woman was an idiot, no question about it and again back to the fox there's no way you could pick up and carry a healthy fox like that. She was carrying it like it was a baby, it had free rein of its head and neck and in usual circumstances it would be biting the hell out of the woman. Instead it just sat there. At no point did I see the fox bite her, when she starts saying it's biting her she has her back to the camera.

All very dodgy to me. Personally I wouldn't put it past sabs to plant a foxlike that but who knows ey....
		
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Agree.  If it is the case, to 'plant' a fox in that situation, tame, drugged or otherwise, is inhumane to the fox, nevermind a danger.


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## bubbilygum (28 November 2012)

Charem said:



			That woman was an idiot, no question about it and again back to the fox there's no way you could pick up and carry a healthy fox like that. She was carrying it like it was a baby, it had free rein of its head and neck and in usual circumstances it would be biting the hell out of the woman. Instead it just sat there. At no point did I see the fox bite her, when she starts saying it's biting her she has her back to the camera.
		
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Doesn't she scruff the fox? I assumed she had a good hold of its neck, hence why it's mouth is so pulled back?

It does seem odd that the fox doesn't put up much of a fight but if she does have a really tight grip on it then its not impossible that its just being held still.


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## EAST KENT (28 November 2012)

Oh really Foxhunter,get real.That was a confused and probably shocked fox,definitely not a dead one! If you scruff one it cannot move much,but it is stress panting.  honestly,I am pro hunting ,but the rubbish you lot come out with is like the spoutings of the Moonies! Think for yourselves for a change,don`t just reel out all the old stuff you have been brainwashed into saying Ad Infinitem
   Walking around with a dead fox..Oh Please.It would`nt look very cuddly after hounds had had it ,would it?
   And ,Yes,I have had reason to do just that with an injured young fox once,it just froze once scruffed.Sadly it had a maggot infested bullet wound and had to be PTS,but YES,that is how they react.


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## happyhunter123 (28 November 2012)

I also have the strongest doubts about the claim that the fox lived. I'd say after being, firstly grabbed by the hounds and secondly grabbed very tightly, for a far longer period by a shrieking madwomen and stuffed in a car, it had little chance of living. Seeing as it was probably ill or injured in the first place, I'd say that that fox is now dead. The bit at the end that claims that the fox 'was released' isn't very convincing.


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## angelish (1 December 2012)

she hasn't got the fox by the scruff ,she has her arms wrapped around it like a teddy bear  i'm just trying to figure out if the woman is "barking" mad  or very brave to launch in there and grab it like that !!
seems she's lucky she didn't loose part of her face


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## Hoof_Prints (1 December 2012)

Haven't read the whole thread but just wanted to say how much I can't stand to watch these videos.
Yes I love animals and personally do not like to see foxes killed ( just my opinion) I have never hunted and don't intend to as it's just not my thing.

The reason I can't watch these videos is because I want to punch the overdramatic idiots running around, throwing a stress even when something small happens. Falling over gasping for air exclaiming 'did you see that? did you get it on camera?! oh my gosh THAT person over there just did this to me... etc' Desperately trying to manipulate the situation to make every person from the hunt look like a horrid nasty person picking on helpless, little, falling over in the mud fox rescuers.

ok rant over, I hate people acting pathetically! Personally I have no bias towards or against the hunt but those people are so annoying.


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## Floxie (2 December 2012)

sweet_essence said:



			Unfortuntely, with the intevention of a human... the fox has no chance to survive (in the manner to live the life it once lived).  Human contact = no life to the fox in the wilderness it once lived.   This is the whole point of hunting. Natural selection, natual upon natural, natural cull.
		
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Errrr I support hunting, and did do when it officially involved foxes (though I know plenty would disagree with me - I'm not drawing on those opinions here). I don't understand or agree with this argument. How would human intervention equal "no life to the fox in the wilderness it once lived"?

EDIT: finally got the vid  What beautiful shots of the hunters in the season, really lovely. Brave woman if that's what she believes in, but not something I'd try! But yes - utter horlicks crying "We need help now!". Hounds couldn't have cared less - they have brains, there's a disconnect between their prey and a human holding it ffs.


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## Dry Rot (2 December 2012)

I've shot, fished, and hunted all my life and I am quite shocked at some of the ignorance displayed on this thread, apparently by country people.

Animals do "play dead" when confronted with a situation they cannot cope with. Ever seen a rabbit chased by a stoat? Probably not. Well, the rabbit will run but eventually freeze and appear to give up. It's unsuccessfully tried all it's usual escape manoeuvres and they've failed, so they try one last ruse and pay the penalty.

Once a wild animal is handled by humans it cannot survive in the wild? What nonsense. They can not only survive but often happily go on to breed.

Raptors can smell? Vultures, maybe, but none of the others that I know of.

Young inexperienced hounds or hounds trained to run an artificial scent would be reluctant to bite down on an unfamiliar object (e.g. a fox). They'll catch and hold out of curiosity but would need more experience or training to kill. It is something outside their experience and they'd be cautious. Why else were young hounds taken out cubbing to get them entered when fox hunting was legal?

Do I need to go on?

If you want to take on the antis (and it can be done because they are usually wrong), make sure you get your facts right. Otherwise we just look a bit silly.


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## cptrayes (2 December 2012)

Dry Rot said:



			Animals do "play dead" when confronted with a situation they cannot cope with. Ever seen a rabbit chased by a stoat? Probably not. Well, the rabbit will run but eventually freeze and appear to give up. It's unsuccessfully tried all it's usual escape manoeuvres and they've failed, so they try one last ruse and pay the penalty.
		
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Species that expect to be prayed upon have that as a strategy, but we were talking about foxes. Have you ever seen a fox being chased by a pack of hounds do it?




			Young inexperienced hounds or hounds trained to run an artificial scent would be reluctant to bite down on an unfamiliar object (e.g. a fox).
		
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Why?  It is natural for all dogs to bite things and most young dogs have to be trained NOT to bite. The draghound packs that I hunt with have no problem biting down on the piece of dead sheep that's thrown to them at the end of the hunt. Nor, on one rare occasion, from biting down on a lamb, unfortunately 





			They'll catch and hold out of curiosity but would need more experience or training to kill. It is something outside their experience and they'd be cautious.
		
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I think this is nonsense, or we would not see domestic pet dogs killing children and my friends would not regularly lose hens and not infrequently sheep, to walkers' dogs.





			Why else were young hounds taken out cubbing to get them entered when fox hunting was legal?
		
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To kill the cubs.


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## Dry Rot (2 December 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Species that expect to be prayed upon have that as a strategy, but we were talking about foxes. Have you ever seen a fox being chased by a pack of hounds do it?
		
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Foxes have evolved to be both prey and predator. There may be no species predating foxes in lowland England today but here in Scotland full grown cubs are still regularly taken by golden eagles and in the past they would have been taken by wolves, bears, lynx, and, yes, even other foxes. So, yes, they would have evolved the ability to "play dead" but I doubt if any animal does this in mid flight!




			Why?  It is natural for all dogs to bite things and most young dogs have to be trained NOT to bite.
		
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Their initial bites will be experimental. A predator does not bite down hard on something it has met for the first time without a trial run, be it ever so brief.  If a predator is injured, it can't hunt efficiently and will soon be dead.




			The draghound packs that I hunt with have no problem biting down on the piece of dead sheep that's thrown to them at the end of the hunt.
		
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Have they ever had meat or any form of food thrown to them before? Then, they have gone through that initial threshold period and know they had better get the meat before someone else does!

[quote[ Nor, on one rare occasion, from biting down on a lamb, unfortunately [/quote]

If the hunt are feeding them pieces of raw sheep meat, I am not surprised they are killing lambs. If I wanted to get a dog to kill sheep, that would be my first step! Are the sheep killers young hounds or old? I suspect young ones who are still experimenting.




			I think this is nonsense, or we would not see domestic pet dogs killing children and my friends would not regularly lose hens and not infrequently sheep, to walkers' dogs.
		
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.

I am prepared to bet that many of those child killing dogs have been teased or allowed to kill animals before they move onto killing children, i.e. that initial threshold of experimentation has been crossed. 

I think you may have been fed the public relations sanitised explanation of cub hunting! A major reason for cub hunting is to introduce young hounds to killing foxes so they become fixated on this prey. Predators prefer to specialise as they are then in less danger of being injured and become efficient in that mode of hunting. We make use of this trait when training dogs.

In my view, the video was genuine. A young fox which had never experienced hounds before was awakened from where it was sleeping and was chopped by a few inexperienced hounds. The hounds gave it a good mouthing but without biting hard. The fox went into "play dead" mode and was then "rescued" by a very foolish and overly dramatic woman. End of story.


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## cptrayes (2 December 2012)

I think you live in cloud cuckoo land with regard to dog behaviour, among other things seriously suggesting that a dog has to be trained to eat sheep or bite children. Laughable, just as good as some of the nonsense higher up the thread.

Do you live in sheep country? Are you aware of how many sheep are savaged by perfectly ordinary family dogs?  Or in the last case my friend had, a fellow farmer's border collie that in theory had been trained not to bite sheep?





			I think you may have been fed the public relations sanitised explanation of cub hunting! A major reason for cub hunting is to introduce young hounds to killing foxes so they become fixated on this prey. Predators prefer to specialise as they are then in less danger of being injured and become efficient in that mode of hunting. We make use of this trait when training dogs.
		
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I have not been "fed" any version of cub hunting. I have done it and became disgusted by it. Explain to me how penning young foxes into a wood  and putting in a pack of dogs teaches the hounds to distinguish the fox from the mulititude of other mammals and birds also trapped in that covert by the riders making noises to scare them into staying inside it?  Dogs like to kill. Especially those bred and kept in a pack.


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## Dry Rot (2 December 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I think you live in cloud cuckoo land with regard to dog behaviour, among other things seriously suggesting that a dog has to be trained to eat sheep or bite children. Laughable, just as good as some of the nonsense higher up the thread.

Do you live in sheep country? Are you aware of how many sheep are savaged by perfectly ordinary family dogs?  Or in the last case my friend had, a fellow farmer's border collie that in theory had been trained not to bite sheep?





I have not been "fed" any version of cub hunting. I have done it and became disgusted by it. Explain to me how penning young foxes into a wood  and putting in a pack of dogs teaches the hounds to distinguish the fox from the mulititude of other mammals and birds also trapped in that covert by the riders making noises to scare them into staying inside it?  Dogs like to kill. Especially those bred and kept in a pack.
		
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Well then, you know it all, don't you?

And all without the necessity of that boring old thing called experience!


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