# Cannot believe it is not illegal for horses to be sold to slaughterhouses!



## kirstinw55 (4 March 2011)

As in the title really! After visiting york horse sales last friday i ended up coming home with a 3 year old untouched new forest gelding who was predomidantly purchased by the meatman! He had the sweetest face imaginable and the most loving nature however had clearly been neglected and had had his headcoller on for months on end to the point where he had sores all over his face and one look at him being miserably yanked round the ring i knew i couldnt leave that auction allowing him to be slaughtered. A few phone calls later the meat-man agreed to sell me him for twice the price he payed for him! Cannot beleive that this is legal, especially considering it was a youngstock and broodmare auction?! How can anyone justify slaughtering horses that lives have barely just begun, moreover how can people allow these people to buy their horses! I appreciate times are hard financially but i cannot accept that this is the answer?! Opinions please!


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## LizzieJ (4 March 2011)

Should it be illegal for cows and sheep to go to slaughter?


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## use a name (4 March 2011)

Its sick.What about the people that keep breeding these animals,not taking resposibility,then selling them for meat.Are they completely stupid!Evil


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## use a name (4 March 2011)

LizzieJ said:



			Should it be illegal for cows and sheep to go to slaughter?
		
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Have to say good point


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## Spudlet (4 March 2011)

It is better for a horse to be humanely slaughtered at the nearest available slaughterhouse than neglected, abandoned or transported for thousands of miles before being slaughtered. Although the idea of a horse of any age being slaughtered may be uncomfortable, the idea of what I just said happening makes me feel far more uncomfortable. Slaughterhouses provide a service - they are necessary.


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## kirstinw55 (4 March 2011)

In my opinion tho cows and sheep do not have the same affectionate value a person shares with their horse! Sure some people would disagree with that but that is just what i believe, and of course lamb and beef is a huge trade in our country but would like to think its extremely unheard of for anyone to eat horse in england!


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## LizzieJ (4 March 2011)

but what's the difference? There are people who have pet cows and sheep too...


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## Mrs B (4 March 2011)

LizzieJ said:



			Should it be illegal for cows and sheep to go to slaughter?
		
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With LizzieJ and Spudlet here. I have seen too many horses abandoned and neglected over the years.

There are, as many on here will tell you, far worse things for a horse than death.

Edited to say: To OP - I cannot believe it is not illegal to sell a horse to any Tom, Dick or Harry who has the money and sod all knowledge...


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## aro (4 March 2011)

Don't know why people breed these horses in the first place to stick them through an auction to then be sold to the meat man for a pittance.  More responsible breeding would solve half the problems out there.  Glad pony has now got a good home and a more positive future.


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## Spudlet (4 March 2011)

But what does it matter what happens to the horse when it is dead?

The reason that horses go to slaughter is that there are too many of them - so perhaps we should look to the number of horses being bred rather than looking at the outcome of this - surplus horses ending up being slaughtered.


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## MinskiKaii (4 March 2011)

So what do you think should happen to these horses, partilcularly in the current economic climate?


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## kirstinw55 (4 March 2011)

Im not looking to argue and debate this! Just feel particularly upset that the sweet little pony i brought home with me lived 3 years of neglect to be killed!


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## LizzieJ (4 March 2011)

better be killed than live another 3 years of neglect though


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## MurphysMinder (4 March 2011)

The sad fact is there are too many poor quality horses and ponies being bred.  As already said it is far preferable for them to have a short journey to a UK abattoir than face neglect, or travelling abroad to meet the same fate.  I


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## Spudlet (4 March 2011)

Well ok, but you did ask for opinions.


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## ChesnutsRoasting (4 March 2011)

The slaughterman isn't the enemy, the idiot who kept this poor pony in a headcoller for so long it became embedded in the ponys skin is.


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## ofcourseyoucan (4 March 2011)

nothing wrong with horses being slaughtered in humane conditions! better that than spend half of their lives going round the markets, being passed from pillar to post, not being fed wormed feet done etc. or ending up in the wrong home with some one who cant manage them properly.OP  sorry but you need to look at the bigger long term picture and future of some of these horses.


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## rubysmum (4 March 2011)

not directed at the OP in any way.....
I can easily think of at least 6 ponies & horses I know that have been bought at sales over the years by people who couldnt bear to see them go to the meat man - but sadly lacked the finances/skills/general where withal to provide for them - a couple quietly rotted in scrubby fields - 1 died a horrible lingering death as the family could not afford the vet care it needed & several ended up back at the market with probably the same original meat destination - we breed far too many unwanted equines in this country & there are simply not enough quality homes for them all - better a quick meat death than months & years of being passed from pillar to post


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## Spudlet (4 March 2011)

There is one other thing, and you aren't going to like it. You paid double for the pony - so the 'meatman' now has the money to go and buy two more.

You can't solve these problems at the slaughter end, you have to go back and solve the problem at source.


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## only_me (4 March 2011)

I would rather a horse slaughtered than neglected/abused and starved to death.

Now this vid, I find very distressing - in fact, I will warn everyone that it is very graphic, distressing and downright horrible. Its unfortunatley called nature 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPyA60lQDR4


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## kirstinw55 (4 March 2011)

aro said:



			Don't know why people breed these horses in the first place to stick them through an auction to then be sold to the meat man for a pittance.  More responsible breeding would solve half the problems out there.  Glad pony has now got a good home and a more positive future.
		
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Thankyou! He's come round so much in just a week and is already a firm favourite! We also had a horse welfare officer and sales inspector women out by coincidence who has seen countless horses being purchased by the slaugherhouse at these sales and she said the conditions they live in were just horrendous. She said the slaughterhouse basically crammed as many horses and ponies into a cattlewagon without food or water and shipped them over to france where they will eventually be killed! Broke my heart leaving those auctions but feel i can have some closure bringing little charlie home with me!


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## misterjinglejay (4 March 2011)

Absolutely, ofcourseyoucan, agree wholeheartedly.


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## chestnut cob (4 March 2011)

kirstinw55 said:



			Im not looking to argue and debate this! !
		
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Why ask for opinions then?!


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## jadelovescassie (4 March 2011)

kirstinw55 said:



			Im not looking to argue and debate this! Just feel particularly upset that the sweet little pony i brought home with me lived 3 years of neglect to be killed!
		
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I agree with you.
I don't really see how people can see this as an ok thing. After seeing a horrible video of a poor horse being slaughtered on some animal trust site, and sorry if TMI but still being alive whilst having its throat slit and being skinned.... humane conditions my arse.
But people do have a point it is the fault of too many people breeding horses carelessly.


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## paisley (4 March 2011)

Well, lets imagine it is illegal to sell horses to slaughterhouses. Thats not going to stop the irresponsible uncaring idiots who breed and then neglect these horses. 

It would simply mean a heck of a lot more unwanted horses suffering a piddle poor quality of life. 

And a lovely example of no abattoir for horses can be seen in America, where they either truck then for days for the grimest of ends in Mexico, or they end up dumped on roadsides


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## Spudlet (4 March 2011)

I suspect that you are talking about a video from Mexico, not the UK (have seen that video or one very much like it). I have also seen slaughter footage from the UK, and you cannot compare the two systems.


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## paisley (4 March 2011)

Just trying to highlight the truly horrid alternative if there were no slaughterhouses for horse in the UK


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## mymare (4 March 2011)

Are you saying you would like to ban horse slaughter, as the US have?  Are you aware of the horrendous journeys they have to make to the Mexico because of this?  

I personally think there should be many more slaughter houses that destroy horses, it would avoid a hell of a lot of welfare cases.  There are plenty of clips on Youtube that show you how instant and humane the killing is.


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## Spudlet (4 March 2011)

paisley said:



			Just trying to highlight the truly horrid alternative if there were no slaughterhouses for horse in the UK
		
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Sorry, my last post was a response to the poster before you, but I was too slow typing and you got in there before me


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## frankie8 (4 March 2011)

I don't think the thought of any horse, especially youngstock, going to slaughter will sit well with anyone that uses this forum, however I do feel it is the lesser of two evils.
As others have said, a horse being humanly slaghtered is better than a life of neglect. I have recently come back from Ireland (we have friends involved in animal rescue over there) and have seen first hand some of the very sad horse cases as a result of neglect. Sadly there are very few rescue spaces available and the horse that get the spaces are the lucky ones. 
Currently, there are more horses than good homes and this is the problem that has to be dealt with initially. I agree that long term the way to tackle this is responsible breeding and owner education, but to prevent a life of suffering to these horses at present,I feel humane slaughter is the option.
Well done OP for helping the pony, I'm sure you will offer a lovely, safe home


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## kirstinw55 (4 March 2011)

I appreciate that in some cases it is the lesser of two evils to have a horse killed then prolong its suffering but when you care for animals i believe you will try to save them anyway how even if it is to give them a few years of happiness if at all possible. Im trying my best to save this pony and have every intention of trying to rescue more and continue trying to prevent these poor horses suffering a horrible death through no fault of their own and if people can not understand why i think its wrong, then  thats fine but im just going to keep plugging away !


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## use a name (4 March 2011)

Eugh!All completely sick.Its so sad,also would like to make a point,the same fate comes to many livestock animals FOR US TO EAT.But no one cares becasue its not a horse.Poeple need to stop breeding horses!But theres many people who breed,but wouldnt sell to the meatman.It also comes down to vile idivdual ''people''


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## use a name (4 March 2011)

frankie8 said:



			I don't think the thought of any horse, especially youngstock, going to slaughter will sit well with anyone that uses this forum, however I do feel it is the lesser of two evils.
As others have said, a horse being humanly slaghtered is better than a life of neglect. I have recently come back from Ireland (we have friends involved in animal rescue over there) and have seen first hand some of the very sad horse cases as a result of neglect. Sadly there are very few rescue spaces available and the horse that get the spaces are the lucky ones. 
Currently, there are more horses than good homes and this is the problem that has to be dealt with initially. I agree that long term the way to tackle this is responsible breeding and owner education, but to prevent a life of suffering to these horses at present,I feel humane slaughter is the option.
Well done OP for helping the pony, I'm sure you will offer a lovely, safe home 

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A very good point.More horses than good homes.People should stop breeding horses especially now money is getting bad.Its a neverending circle


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## stressedmum (4 March 2011)

The meatman is merely there to clean up after our mistakes, i dont hate him for that.....I hate the fact there is to much back yard breeding, too much over breeding ie the new forest and dartmoor hill ponies. If slaughter over here was banned, then imagine the trauma as more and more end up shipped to ireland then over to france and so on. I thought we all hated that x


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## thoroughlybred1 (4 March 2011)

"There are worse things than being dead" - A quote that has stayed with me forever.....

And for me, a horse or pony destined for a life of endless abuse or being passed from sale to sale is indeed worse than being dead..... personally I have such horses PTS at home as i would rather that than not knowing, but each to their own.


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## stroppy (4 March 2011)

I would rather an unwanted horse go to the meat man than be left abandoned, starving and suffering!!


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## Maesfen (4 March 2011)

kirstinw55 said:



			Im trying my best to save this pony and have every intention of trying to rescue more and continue trying to prevent these poor horses suffering a horrible death through no fault of their own and if people can not understand why i think its wrong, then  thats fine but im just going to keep plugging away !
		
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Very noble but what happens if your situation changes and you can no longer afford to buy or even care for the animals you already have?  What will you do, put them down at home or sell them when they might end up in the same place?

It's naive to think it shouldn't happen or you can stop the animals going to market or being slaughtered.  As others have said, there are worse things for horses than death, even if they are only young and because you paid double whack, that means he can go and buy more, you've added to the misery for some even if it was with the best of intentions.

BTW, if it's put down in this country, it won't be a horrible death although what it has already been through is horrible.


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## kirstinw55 (4 March 2011)

Maesfen said:



			Very noble but what happens if your situation changes and you can no longer afford to buy or even care for the animals you already have?  What will you do, put them down at home or sell them when they might end up in the same place?

It's naive to think it shouldn't happen or you can stop the animals going to market or being slaughtered.  As others have said, there are worse things for horses than death, even if they are only young and because you paid double whack, that means he can go and buy more, you've added to the misery for some even if it was with the best of intentions.

BTW, if it's put down in this country, it won't be a horrible death although what it has already been through is horrible.
		
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Well even if i can make a difference to one horses life i'll take some solace from that.


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## frankie8 (4 March 2011)

kirstinw55 said:



			I appreciate that in some cases it is the lesser of two evils to have a horse killed then prolong its suffering but when you care for animals i believe you will try to save them anyway how even if it is to give them a few years of happiness if at all possible. Im trying my best to save this pony and have every intention of trying to rescue more and continue trying to prevent these poor horses suffering a horrible death through no fault of their own and if people can not understand why i think its wrong, then  thats fine but im just going to keep plugging away
!
		
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Having four rescue dogs,who's alternative fate would have been to be destroyed, I very much understand why you feel it's wrong. Any animal being destroyed through human ignorence doesn't sit well with me either. We too try to do our bit to save these animals and offer them a life free from suffering and pain, be it only a few years.
But what makes me feel worse is these horses going from home to home to experience years of neglect when a swift humane end was possible.


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## Umbongo (4 March 2011)

The meat man isn't the enemy, the idiot who neglects the horse in the first place is.

I have been to a well known slaughter house in the UK and I must say it is very quick, quiet, and humane. The horses have fields to graze in beforehand and they all seem quite relaxed. Obviously there is a huge issue with traveling conditions for horses that are transported to France, Italy etc. But banning slaughterhouses would just increase the problem, as is seen in the USA, with horrific conditions horses are transported in to travel across the border into Mexico.

Glad that you have given this pony another chance, however as someone has said...you have just given the meat man enough money to buy 2 more ponies. I would much rather a horse go for meat than live a life of neglect.

People need to stop indiscriminate breeding, there are not enough good homes for all of the horses unfortunately...the meat man is just there to pick up the mess.


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## kickandshout (4 March 2011)

its simple stop breeding crap no one wants or can afford !!!
how many of us have heard
 'oooh id like a foal off her when shes retired as shes sooo lovely ' 
only then to be left with a over humanized thug they cant control which is then sent to auction !!!!!
( before anyone cares to shoot me - i know this isn't always the case !!)

if they have to be destroyed get it done properly and with respect for the animal - whatever the animal sheep, pig, cow,  chickens or horses !!!!


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## mymare (4 March 2011)

kickandshout said:



			if they have to be destroyed get it done properly and with respect for the animal - whatever the animal sheep, pig, cow,  chickens or horses !!!!
		
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Do you mean pts or abattoir?


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## Always Blue (4 March 2011)

Spudlet said:



			It is better for a horse to be humanely slaughtered at the nearest available slaughterhouse than neglected, abandoned or transported for thousands of miles before being slaughtered. Although the idea of a horse of any age being slaughtered may be uncomfortable, the idea of what I just said happening makes me feel far more uncomfortable. Slaughterhouses provide a service - they are necessary.
		
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Agree with this statement.


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## Always Blue (4 March 2011)

kickandshout said:



			its simple stop breeding crap no one wants or can afford !!!
how many of us have heard
 'oooh id like a foal off her when shes retired as shes sooo lovely ' 
only then to be left with a over humanized thug they cant control which is then sent to auction !!!!!
( before anyone cares to shoot me - i know this isn't always the case !!)

if they have to be destroyed get it done properly and with respect for the animal - whatever the animal sheep, pig, cow,  chickens or horses !!!!
		
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agree with this also. too many people breeding from sub standard horses.


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## Trinity Fox (4 March 2011)

While any of mine that need to be put down are done by the kennels at home this is not the case for all, there should be stricter laws about horses being exported for salughter, but for horses that need to be put down and do not have a saviour then slaughter is not the worst that can happen think about the emaciated horses dumped recently slaughter would have been welcome.

What i do strongly believe is that commomners grazing rights should be revoked if they consistently produce inferior stock that sell at auction for a tiny amount.

I believe there are grazing rights in the new forrest wales dartmoor exmoor the fells, all these places have an excess of inferior ponies bred that are sold for a pittance at market most do not resemble the breed so are not helping to preserve it.

Now any of us who decided to breed horses would have to own a place to do so or rent so would pay a premium for land also it would not really be excepted to not look after or handle any youngstock, and they would have to make a certain amount to make it viable.

For some reason these people are given grazing rights alot of the time the stock is not looked after or handled in some cases they dont have to passport before sale as the rest of us do, and sometimes receive goverment grants.

Who does this benifit not the breed of any of these  ponies not the public or pony buyers certainly not the ponies, just because the commoners have always had grazing rights to do this does not mean it should continue as a tradition.
Lets face it they used to drown women they thought were witches but we dont still do this.

There is a good market for well bred native ponies so it makes it even more of a disgrace that people who have grazing rights for free are allowed to breed in this way not look after their stock be encouraged to do this then sell for sometimes a few guineas. and even worse thier are charities helping such the like as the dartmoor ponies while it is nice they are why not put a stop to it all.

The traffic for unwanted ponies trawling the markets that make nothing would drop a hell of a lot if this was put to a stop.


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## kickandshout (4 March 2011)

mymare said:



			Do you mean pts or abattoir?
		
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Either way with respect but obviously its not for meat trade if its pts.

not all slaughterhouses show any thought for the animal   try a few of the animal welfare videos for evidence.
the most recent one i viewed (wished i hadnt) was at a pig farm. barbaric !!!!

 i know slaughterman have to learn their trade somehow. but if it was my animal id want a quick end with a professional person to do it.


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## MinskiKaii (4 March 2011)

always blue said:



			agree with this also. Too many people breeding from sub standard horses.
		
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When my mare was diagosed with arthritis at the age of 7, partly due to her conformation. When we thought she may not get sound enough to do much with her, the equine vet, who also owns a horse, suggested breeding from her.  Great idea!!!  Needles to say, we deicided not to.


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## sprite1978 (4 March 2011)

kirstinw55 said:



			In my opinion tho cows and sheep do not have the same affectionate value a person shares with their horse!!
		
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These are emotions that we humans put on horses. I agree that its sad to see a horse go to slaughter, but its no worse than cows or sheep. I would hate this to happen to my horse, but thats because of emotions I have. I would have the same emotion for a cow if i cared for it every day. It wouldnt stop me eating steak.

OP - If you agree that slaughter can be the lesser of 2 evils, then surely you'd be better off trying to rescue abused, neglected horses.

Its also harsh but true, the slaughter man does now have money to buy 2 more.


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## Amymay (4 March 2011)

kirstinw55 said:



			In my opinion tho cows and sheep do not have the same affectionate value a person shares with their horse! Sure some people would disagree with that but that is just what i believe, and of course lamb and beef is a huge trade in our country but would like to think its extremely unheard of for anyone to eat horse in england!
		
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Oh dear....

Every animal deserves to be treated with dignity and compassion regardless of  thirty breed or purpose.  As comented elsewhere, overbreeding  will result in little scraps like this ending up with the   meetman, and better this than a life of neglect.  I guess you must have deep pockets and lots of land in order to save all those destined for slaughter....

But that aside, good luck with your new youngster. He sounds lucky to have found you.


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## mymare (4 March 2011)

kirstinw55 said:



			In my opinion tho cows and sheep do not have the same affectionate value a person shares with their horse!
		
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I disagree, I have 3 pet sheep who I adore!


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## Amymay (5 March 2011)

paisley said:



			Well, lets imagine it is illegal to sell horses to slaughterhouses. Thats not going to stop the irresponsible uncaring idiots who breed and then neglect these horses. 

It would simply mean a heck of a lot more unwanted horses suffering a piddle poor quality of life. 

And a lovely example of no abattoir for horses can be seen in America, where they either truck then for days for the grimest of ends in Mexico, or they end up dumped on roadsides
		
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Hear, hear !!!


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## honetpot (5 March 2011)

kirstinw55 said:



			. A few phone calls later the meat-man agreed to sell me him for twice the price he payed for him! answer?!
		
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One of the reasons poor stock are sold through auctions is that people feel sorry for them and buy them at inflated prices.
 For what you paid for this animal you could have bought a nice animal that someone had fed,wormed etc with a known history. By buying an animal that someone has just flung in a field and spent no money on its care you are prepetuating the problem. Why would any one care for them when they can get good money by neglecting them?
 If they did not sell or there was very little money to be made from them they would stop breeding them.Unfortuately it is a commen problem.
http://www.saddlesoap.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=65671.0
http://www.saddlesoap.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=65641.0


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## Dolcé (5 March 2011)

TBH, as a regular at York, those that sell for slaughter are luckier than the ones bought by some of the low end dealers that frequent the auction, those horses just get dragged around from auction to auction.  Those ones are ill treated and generally end up going for slaughter after being dragged around from sale to sale, dealer to dealer, although some may be lucky and find a good home eventually.

Echoing Trinity Fox, be careful if you decide to rescue more!  We had our own land and stables and made our own hay, we had 6 horses originally and that increased to 13 with the 7 'sympathy' buys from York (to save them from slaughter).  They are all nice horses, all had problems, mainly behavioural and emaciation, and a couple were bought for a fraction of their worth had they been 100%.  Our circumstances changed dramatically, we now have 13 in livery and our hay bill is over £100 pw through winter plus a substantial amount spent on feed for the horses, vets bills, wormers etc etc.........it never ends!  

TF, we have bought 3 county standard section A youngsters from York sales, bred by a stud that seems to sell all their stock at York after being unable to sell them at inflated prices on their website.  Knowing what we have paid makes me wonder how/why they carry on breeding, but they still keep sending them.  They have ponies at almost every sale,  all have nearly always had high placings or won at the big county shows such as Royal Welsh and Great Yorkshire (so spend the money travelling and entering such shows), travel a fair way to the sale and yet sell for a pittance.


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## TarrSteps (5 March 2011)

To the "stop breeding crap" I would add, "stop making crap".  If a horse has a physical, behavioural, or training issue get it fixed, or you're drastically increasing the chances it will end up in a bad situation.  I always say good training is health insurance for horses because if it can be useful, even as a hack or companion, someone is more likely to want it and take care of it.

While it is true we have too many horses, we also seem to have a lot of horses that don't get sold even though there are people looking.  Of course, it's not that simple and there are many reasons horses end up in trouble but it's also sometimes the case that "rescued" horses eventually end up in trouble again because people over extend themselves and either can't give them enough time or end up bankrupt/having to sell later.  

If you can save one or two or whatever and give them a good life, that's fantastic and admirable.  But I'd rather see someone take on one and keep it properly than take on four and not be able to do right by them.


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## Dolcé (5 March 2011)

TarrSteps said:



			To the "stop breeding crap" I would add, "stop making crap".  If a horse has a physical, behavioural, or training issue get it fixed, or you're drastically increasing the chances it will end up in a bad situation.  I always say good training is health insurance for horses because if it can be useful, even as a hack or companion, someone is more likely to want it and take care of it.

While it is true we have too many horses, we also seem to have a lot of horses that don't get sold even though there are people looking.  Of course, it's not that simple and there are many reasons horses end up in trouble but it's also sometimes the case that "rescued" horses eventually end up in trouble again because people over extend themselves and either can't give them enough time or end up bankrupt/having to sell later.  

If you can save one or two or whatever and give them a good life, that's fantastic and admirable.  But I'd rather see someone take on one and keep it properly than take on four and not be able to do right by them.
		
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I agree with this completely, it is the point i was trying to make about taking on so many.  You never know what is around the corner!  Our vets bills for each of the 'rescued' horses were considerable to get them back to health, fortunately this wasn't an issue at the time but we just wouldn't have been able to manage them now to that level.  The hours put in to sort out behavioural problems were also considerable, again I just wouldn't have that amount of time now.  It is also very hard work caring for multiple horses compared to just one as so many people on here can testify.


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## Shysmum (5 March 2011)

there would be a hell of a lot more suffering in the horse world without the meat man, he is the very best answer for so many horses and ponies. Sorry, you have a very naive outlook.  sm x


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## Booboos (5 March 2011)

kirstinw55 said:



			In my opinion tho cows and sheep do not have the same affectionate value a person shares with their horse! Sure some people would disagree with that but that is just what i believe, and of course lamb and beef is a huge trade in our country but would like to think its extremely unheard of for anyone to eat horse in england!
		
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A visit to a cattle slaughter house may persuade you to become a vegetarian sooner than you think!

Sorry OP, but you have just added to the problem. If more people went round buying horses off the meat man for double the price it would just increase the price of these animals and tempt more people to breed them.


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## SJcrazee (5 March 2011)

If we didn't have the meatmen we would be overrun with horses and ponies dumped on wasteland, and left to starve, or dumped under tarps and left to die like that poor little mite in the news.
Like it or not the slaughterhouse is a valuble service for this country we CANNOT afford to lose- just one look at the crisis in america where slaughter houses were banned and horses are now shipped hundreds of miles to mexico to meet a barbaric end - how can that be right?
The rose tinted fluffy bunny view on horse slaughter is DANGEROUS and people need to seriously pack it in and think out of the box on welfare grounds.
Breeding should be more tightly regulated but there still needs to be a place to go for those horses that will never make a decent riding animal, they are large expensive creatures and not everyone can afford to keep them as pets you know..


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## Wagtail (5 March 2011)

LizzieJ said:



			Should it be illegal for cows and sheep to go to slaughter?
		
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Exactly what I thought. Horses are lucky that we favour them above most of the other herbivores and generally treat them differently in this country. Cows are just as intelligent and full of character. I don't see any difference between a horse and a cow which is why I don't eat meat.


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## luckyoldme (5 March 2011)

i hate to think about horse slaughter . However i cant think of any alternative. i personally cant afford to stand at the gates buying up these horses and giving them all a long and happy life ..... and i dont know of any other folk who can. 
The side effects of the push for perfection at the top means a lot of surpluss at the lower end of the market. 
This year all the horse charities were besieged with requests for help for horses suffering a worse fate than death. horse slaughter is a necessary evil.


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## Spyda (5 March 2011)

kirstinw55 said:



			In my opinion tho cows and sheep do not have the same affectionate value a person shares with their horse!
		
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I disagree. These animals have EXACTLY the same ability to befriend humans if given the chance. Every animal has it's own personality. Even my _goldfish _have attitude! 

Different societies develop different affectionate values to animals. Some societies wouldn't kill and eat a cow, other wouldn't eat pig, others eat horsemeat, others don't. Some used to eat dog. Personally, I think it sad that some lambs are born 'early' in this country, during the bleakest cold weather of winter, and are slaughtered before seeing a summer. How sad is that, when you think about it? 

Whilst the majority of human beings on this planet remain omniverous, the fact is animals will have to be slaughtered for human consumption. That's a fact none of us can avoid. I believe as long as it is conducted in the most humane and respectful manner possible, it is acceptable. Regardless of the species in question. 

I know it's sad when young lives are cut short so soon, but rather that than a long life suffering at the hands of people who do not care.


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## Groom42 (5 March 2011)

OP - your alternative would be what, exactly?


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## Achinghips (5 March 2011)

OP I feel your abohrrence and can understand why you did what you did, and you sound like a compassionate, slightly naiive but fundamentally humane person. 

I'm reminded of a story I heard recently:

One day a man was walking along the beach where there were thousands of washed up starfish. Occasionally he stopped, picked one up and threw it back into the sea. A stranger walked by and said "Why are you doing that? You can't possibley save them all, there's so many thousands, you can't possibley make a difference." The man, picked another up, threw it into the sea and replied "It made a difference to this one".


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## FairyLights (5 March 2011)

A horse is a meat animal, people ,and dogs and cats,eat horsemeat,therefore they go to slaughterhouses. I own horses and sheep. The sheep are as much pets as the horses are,they are also very tame. We used to have cattle, they can be trained to pull ploughs and carts,like horses can. We eat cows and sheep,and chickens too.


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## FairyLights (5 March 2011)

Achinghips said:



			One day a man was walking along the beach where there were thousands of washed up starfish. Occasionally he stopped, picked one up and threw it back into the sea. A stranger walked by and said "Why are you doing that? You can't possibley save them all, there's so many thousands, you can't possibley make a difference." The man, picked another up, threw it into the sea and replied "It made a difference to this one".
		
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Thats a lovely story, reminds me of why I bought 2 foals at auction recently.


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## tallyho! (5 March 2011)

I'm sure there exists a fate worse than death for some of these horses... lets think back to Amersham just as an example....


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## Skippys Mum (5 March 2011)

kirstinw55 said:



			In my opinion tho cows and sheep do not have the same affectionate value a person shares with their horse!
		
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Look at these 2 (very short) videos of my pet sheep taken on monday and then tell me they dont have the same affectionate value.  They are my pets, equal with my horses, dogs and cats.
http://www.youtube.com/user/torchy500#p/a/u/1/fvzgAayct3I
http://www.youtube.com/user/torchy500#p/a/u/0/zYTKJ43tWFM

If anything, there should be _more_ slaughterhouses with tighter controls so that _all_ animals are treated respectfully and humanely with the minimum amount of stress and suffering.  Outlawing slaughterhouses would actually add to the existing problem.

I do feel strongly though that no animal should have to suffer long distance live transportation to slaughter.  That is barbaric and in these days of refrigerated transport, unneccessary.


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## Zabby (5 March 2011)

I'm definetly for slaughter! Countries where it's illegal = more starving, neglected horses. 

Sure, things can always be improved with everything, not the least slaughter.
But I rather eat a horse than a cow, I expect the horse to have had a decent life and not been bred just to get killed. 
Slaughter isn't evil. Killing unwanted creatures that's unable to take care of themselves isn't evil.

I rather send my horse to slaughter than selling him. Why? Since horsemeat is cheap here and expencive otherwhere, and he's a ''bad'' breed, there is a way too high risk that he'd get sold around and at last ending up on a seveal day long, inhumane and illegal transport to some other coyntry, to  be killed there with who knows what kind of methods...

Now he's gotten some medecine that makes him unfit for human consumption, and I rather have him killed at home if it were to it. But I'm not against humane slaughtering. Just because you like horses better than cows it doesn't mean it's worse for them.


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## SwingHorse (5 March 2011)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izffs5IsZxc&feature=related
Above is one of the LEAST graphic and upsetting videos about horse transport for slaughter I've seen, there are many more worse videos out there and I implore anyone who claims to care for animals to watch them.

If uk slaughter was made illegal, those slaughter bound would be subject to a journey possibly even longer than the one shown in the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8e0JDtFiLgI
This video here shows the mistreatment of US animals killed in Mexico, where there are even fewer regulations on horse treatment.

Getting rid of slaughter in the country of a horses origin INCREASES mistreatment

Compare this to UK slaughter - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJMoyh57XOU - unpleasant yes, but the horses are largely not traumatized prior to death (e.g. in the holding areas), mostly well fed and seemingly looked after, few injuries can be seen and haven't been subject to a journey lasting days.
Yes, that horse was down for 7 minutes plus, compare that the the other two videos and although still heartbreaking that horse was put out of its misery.


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## thatsmygirl (5 March 2011)

Need to sort all the pointless over breeding that's going on. That half the reason why the ponies are ending up like they are. Think before you breed. 

Somebody local to me brought 3 dartmoors off the meat man which fine that's ok BUT than went and put all off them in foal to their Shetland stallion. I ment WHY???? Bloody stupid and makes me mad.


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## jadelovescassie (5 March 2011)

Booboos said:



			Sorry OP, but you have just added to the problem.
		
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Bit harsh, she helped a poor horse out. Not really fair to make her feel guilty about it..


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## Donkeymad (5 March 2011)

jadelovescassie said:



			Bit harsh, she helped a poor horse out. Not really fair to make her feel guilty about it..
		
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True though. More horses should, quite honestly, end up being slaughtered, be it for meat or incineration. Fact of life, death


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## Pearlsasinger (5 March 2011)

kirstinw55 said:



			Im not looking to argue and debate this! J!
		
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So why did you ask for opinions?  Did you really think that every-one on here was going to agree with you?  
I'm afraid that some of us know too much about what can happen to horses that are passed from pillar to post to think that the worst thing that can happen to a horse is a quick death.
Does your pony have a home for life with you?


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## tallyho! (5 March 2011)

thatsmygirl said:



			Need to sort all the pointless over breeding that's going on. That half the reason why the ponies are ending up like they are. Think before you breed. 

Somebody local to me brought 3 dartmoors off the meat man which fine that's ok BUT than went and put all off them in foal to their Shetland stallion. I ment WHY???? Bloody stupid and makes me mad.
		
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Christ... humans ARE getting thicker! 

(Mentally aswell as physically).


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## beeswax (5 March 2011)

thanks to people like the OP (paying double the price) the meatman can now buy 2 more and save them from uncertain death but a certain death.


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## tristar (5 March 2011)

well done you for helping this pony, i wish the best of luck with him, they make  great jumping ponies, i know a few new forests, just because the rest of the world is doing what its doing does'nt mean you have to, follow that bright star and make the world a better place, and by the way the meat men are already rich, i've known a few, so its incorrect to think your one purchase will make it any worse than it already is.
i too hate the slaughter of horses for meat for human consumption and animal feed, i think you are quite correct in thinking how can this happen to a pony whose life has only just begun, like thousands of racehorses too, it is something beyond the comprehension of any compassionate human.


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## minkymoo (5 March 2011)

Skippys Mum said:



			I do feel strongly though that no animal should have to suffer long distance live transportation to slaughter.  That is barbaric and in these days of refrigerated transport, unneccessary.
		
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^^^ this. I am not bothered if people want to eat horse. I am bothered by horses crammed into cattle lorries and driven to Italy often via Poland with barely enough stops, no food and no water. I find this abhorrent regardless of whether it is a horse, cow, sheep or chicken. 

you only have to look at the massive problem in America to see that closing of slaughter houses does not work. Couple that with backyard breeders who produce low end cut'n'shuts and the potential nightmare that ensues is painfully obvious.

Well run slaughter houses are too few & far between IMO.


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## SiscosMum (5 March 2011)

I have to say that reading this post and watching the video of the uk slaughter house has changed my opinion on 'meat men', my horse is just a pet as he is retired at 13, i sold him then bought him back three owners later due to the fact that he more than likely would have ended up sold for slaughter, i can say now that if i hadnt found him and brought him home i would probably have rather he'd been bought by a meat man than went round another 3 homes of neglect.  Iv always thought of meat men as being horrible to the ponies/horses and where they take them being a nasty place, i can see now that its not like that and as much as id hate it for horses i know personally to end up sold on for slaughter i can now see why the slaughter houses are necessary and i agree about horses ending their lives in a place like sometimes being a better end to life than ending up in the position that my boy could have ended up in.   I know that at one point he was left in a field with no hay, feed or even water until others provided for him as they realised his owners at that point werent going to.


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## Alaadin (5 March 2011)

mymare said:



			Are you saying you would like to ban horse slaughter, as the US have?  Are you aware of the horrendous journeys they have to make to the Mexico because of this?  

I personally think there should be many more slaughter houses that destroy horses, it would avoid a hell of a lot of welfare cases.  There are plenty of clips on Youtube that show you how instant and humane the killing is.
		
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Yes and plenty that don't...


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## SwingHorse (5 March 2011)

SiscosMum said:



			I have to say that reading this post and watching the video of the uk slaughter house has changed my opinion on 'meat men', my horse is just a pet as he is retired at 13, i sold him then bought him back three owners later due to the fact that he more than likely would have ended up sold for slaughter, i can say now that if i hadnt found him and brought him home i would probably have rather he'd been bought by a meat man than went round another 3 homes of neglect.  Iv always thought of meat men as being horrible to the ponies/horses and where they take them being a nasty place, i can see now that its not like that and as much as id hate it for horses i know personally to end up sold on for slaughter i can now see why the slaughter houses are necessary and i agree about horses ending their lives in a place like sometimes being a better end to life than ending up in the position that my boy could have ended up in.   I know that at one point he was left in a field with no hay, feed or even water until others provided for him as they realised his owners at that point werent going to.
		
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How refreshing to see a horse owner willing to change their mind when confronted with facts 
If Potters is still run the way it is in that video (posted one page 7, I personally think everyone should see it!) I'd be happy for any of mine to go there - it looked like the horses were calm, well fed and looked in the holding areas and treated - though quickly and efficiently - with respect and dignity rather than pure brute force.


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## SwingHorse (5 March 2011)

Alaadin said:



			Yes and plenty that don't...
		
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In currently licensed British slaughter houses? I didn't find any like that, but if you could link to a few I'd consider changing my opinion, just as you should when confronted with the humane and quick deaths in the UK


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## monikirk (5 March 2011)

So sad - I don't think I could go to a horse sale. 
I guess the slaughter house provide a service, may be better than leaving an unloved equine in a field neglected. 
I think the main problem is over breeding and people not thinking first about putting a mare in foal without considering the outcome.


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## Alaadin (5 March 2011)

SwingHorse said:



			In currently licensed British slaughter houses? I didn't find any like that, but if you could link to a few I'd consider changing my opinion, just as you should when confronted with the humane and quick deaths in the UK
		
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I have seen many yes. I did alot of research on this subject for a part of my degree. I don't have the links to the videos anymore, but it was preety gruesome and barbaric. But obviously where there are exceptions, I'm sure the majority of slaughter houses are humane. Being a vegetarian, it's just not something I can agree with for any animal


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## miss_bird (5 March 2011)

I would much rather see a horse go to the meat man than be brought on sympathy by someone who has no idea and the horse/pony suffers from ignorance.


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## Booboos (6 March 2011)

jadelovescassie said:



			Bit harsh, she helped a poor horse out. Not really fair to make her feel guilty about it..
		
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People exactly like the OP caused a crisis in the rescue charities in France by misguidedly thinking they should be buying horses to prevent them from being slaughtered...guess what happened? The prices of meat horses went through the roof, more of them were bred with no thought as to suitability for any purpose either than to be rescued and the charities very soon run out of space. Decent horse charities over here are begging people NOT to rescue horses from meat markets it's creating a huge problem.

Having vaguely good but misinformed and misguided intentions does not result in good actions. There is plenty we can all do to campaign against live transport and better slaughter conditions, but to pay inflatted prices for animals destined for slaughter and to want to ban slaughtering is not a solution, it's creating more of a problem.


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## Groom42 (6 March 2011)

Alaadin said:



			Being a vegetarian, it's just not something I can agree with for any animal
		
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No closed mind there, then.


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## penhwnllys_stardust (6 March 2011)

There are worse things than death, just have a look at the horses and ponies in Ireland.


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## SwingHorse (6 March 2011)

penhwnllys_stardust said:



			There are worse things than death, just have a look at the horses and ponies in Ireland.
		
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The quick deaths offered with out excessive traveling in England would be, if you pardon the pun, like heaven to some of the ponies suffering worldwide...
Ending slaughter locally INCREASES cruelty worldwide. Where's the nearest slaughtering country to England - France, okay, some will go there, how many hours traveling would that be from somewhere like Scotland? Where else would they go, Italy? Italians generally (from my experience!) like their meat to be killed in the country, because butchers only have to declare country of death not origin. How long would they spend on the road then?

I implore anyone who is Anti British slaughter to watch a video of the UK slaughter (page seven, near the bottom) then youtube HSUS slaughter investigations, where horses are killed with a knife through the spinal chord
or stunned (often taking two or three goes to get it right!) and then have their throats slit. I know which I'd prefer for my best friend...


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## charlie76 (6 March 2011)

I have sent a horse to the slaughter house, he was dangerous and I didn;t want him passed from pillar to post. 
Having just watched the video on the UK slaughter house, I can't see anything wrong. The horses all look relaxed and happy eating hay, they have no idea as to what is  happening. The blood is cleaned up straight away and the horses are dealt with in a calm, no emotion manner. As for the mare who was injured, after travelling all the way there I don't think waiting another 7 mins was going to hurt, she didn't look overly stressed.


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## penhwnllys_stardust (6 March 2011)

Slightly off topic but there is a sheeps slaughter house quite local to me, the sheep are stunned and their throat slit but 80% of she sheep regain conciousness and have to be brought back and the process repeated i know this because my partner worked there and he was the only one who made sure they were dead before they were skinned the others would just let them go through  he didn't stay there long. we need more slaughter houses with better regulations.


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## penhwnllys_stardust (6 March 2011)

Sorry I wrote that wrong i meant 20% not 80%


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## LaurenM (6 March 2011)

There are worse ways to die as already discussed. We need to point the blame at those that breed the horses rather than those trying to make profit out of the mess. 

I sincerely hope that you are able to offer this youngster a home for life.


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## tristar (6 March 2011)

i f she carries on and trains the pony to lead a useful life, then all will be well, it can always be loaned out on  the yard, its a fact of life that ponies are outgrown and need a different rider from time to time.
all this overbreeding and meat men buying horses has been going on forever! its not new! as long as i can remember people like glenda spooner in the 1960's pleaded with folk to breed less, mainly ponies when she was chairman of ponies of britain.
nothing has changed.


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## Amymay (7 March 2011)

Booboos said:



			People exactly like the OP caused a crisis in the rescue charities in France by misguidedly thinking they should be buying horses to prevent them from being slaughtered...guess what happened? The prices of meat horses went through the roof, more of them were bred with no thought as to suitability for any purpose either than to be rescued and the charities very soon run out of space.
		
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This is not strictly accurate Booboos......


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## TallyHo123 (7 March 2011)

Spudlet said:



			It is better for a horse to be humanely slaughtered at the nearest available slaughterhouse than neglected, abandoned or transported for thousands of miles before being slaughtered. Although the idea of a horse of any age being slaughtered may be uncomfortable, the idea of what I just said happening makes me feel far more uncomfortable. Slaughterhouses provide a service - they are necessary.
		
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I think I agree with this, it's not nice but it's true. It's who ever keeps breeding these poor quality horses which are causing the problems. I would rather see a horse put out of its misery than be passed from pillar to post and be neglected. It's sad but unfortunately is going to keep happening.


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## horsegirl (7 March 2011)

kirstinw55 said:



			In my opinion tho cows and sheep do not have the same affectionate value a person shares with their horse! Sure some people would disagree with that but that is just what i believe, and of course lamb and beef is a huge trade in our country but would like to think its extremely unheard of for anyone to eat horse in england!
		
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I eat horsemeat, I have a couple of horse steaks in the freezer now


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## Damnation (7 March 2011)

Have to say I have no problem with horses being sent to the slaughterhouse. Its all done very quickly and professionally. There are much worse ways for them to go.. i.e from severe neglect because the owner can't afford to keep said horse and its just left, dumped, to waste away.
If I had of had a choice when my last mare was PTS she would of been shot.
I do however disagree strongly to the live transportation of horses across France and Italy to slaughter.


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## YasandCrystal (7 March 2011)

I agree with many of the posts on here.  It all starts with breeding. The Gemans have it right - there is no indiscrimate breeding in Germany - all mares are selected and stallions licensed. They do not have this market problem with poorly conformed foals and youngstock then being sold for a few £s., which is upsetting for everyone.
The sad fact is that it costs the same to feed a good horse/pony as a poor one and we all know that keeping horses is not a cheap thing to do.
The British are great animal lovers and the French rescue thing showed how 'taken' we can all be with countless numbers of people finding they had taken on 'rescue' horses with dreadful behavioural problems, which is doubtless to say why the horses were up for slaughter in the first place.
Each to their own in eating meat whether it be horse or any other, but at least cattle are bred and fed for purpose, not left malnourished and wormy and hungry and sold for a few quid in a dingy market.
Well done OP for taking on poor foal - if you have the ability to do so - great for the foal.


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## Kenzo (7 March 2011)

It's sad I know and I can understand why the OP did this.

But, where there is a profit to be made, there's a market, where's there's a market, there's demand ...or at least no consideration where breeding and numbers are concerned because you are still lining their pockets.

They will keep churning these ponies out if they are getting money back of them, remember it costs them nothing to breed and keep these ponies, you can see that by the condition they arrive at sales in, only thing they have to folk out for is fuel for the wagon to take them from A to B and lovely caring people to feel sorry for them and buy them.


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## Booboos (7 March 2011)

amymay said:



			This is not strictly accurate Booboos......
		
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Why not?

I can't for the life of me find it again but I was only recently reading an article about a family that had moved to France without any prior experience of horse ownership. They came across a meat market, were appalled at the idea of slaughtering the horses for meat and rescued a largish number (4-5 horses). They also set up a charity to encourage private individuals to rescue horses destined for the meat market. Within a year they had single handedly increased meat horse prices in their area and were even themselves realising that they were causing more harm than good. They have now refocused their efforts on improving transport legislation and welfare requirements relating to slaughter rather than saving horses from being PTS.


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## Amymay (7 March 2011)

It was your assertion that the meat horses in France were suddenly being bred for 'rescue' instead - that is not correct.

However, the general 'con' was.


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## SirenaXVI (7 March 2011)

SwingHorse said:



			The quick deaths offered with out excessive traveling in England would be, if you pardon the pun, like heaven to some of the ponies suffering worldwide...
Ending slaughter locally INCREASES cruelty worldwide. Where's the nearest slaughtering country to England - France, okay, some will go there, how many hours traveling would that be from somewhere like Scotland? Where else would they go, Italy? Italians generally (from my experience!) like their meat to be killed in the country, because butchers only have to declare country of death not origin. How long would they spend on the road then?

I implore anyone who is Anti British slaughter to watch a video of the UK slaughter (page seven, near the bottom) then youtube HSUS slaughter investigations, where horses are killed with a knife through the spinal chord
or stunned (often taking two or three goes to get it right!) and then have their throats slit. I know which I'd prefer for my best friend...
		
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So so true, I watched both those videos last year, there is absolutely no comparison, I could not watch the HSUS one all the way through, it was so distressing.

I too would recommend anyone wanting to ban slaughter in the UK should watch both of the above.  Ironically the British one was filmed secretly by an animal welfare group in an effort to blacken their name, it backfired a little as many people then realised that in fact the British slaughterhouses (well those that take in horses anyway) were actually very humane.  Having said that, I have seen slaughterhouse videos of cows, pigs etc which were not quite so humane 

Personally, I do not think that ANY animal should travel miles in disgusting conditions to slaughter, and unlike the OP, I would like to see a ban on live export of ALL animals and more effort put in to making sure that the UK had enough abbatoires to make this happen.  I would also like those abbatoires slaughtering cows, sheep etc to be policed more effectively by DEFRA to ensure that welfare standards are on a par with Potters or Turners.

On the subject of surpluss pony foals etc., I agree that the meatman is the least of their problems, those breeding these poor little scraps need to be made responsible for their actions, hit them in the pocket and take away their government grants, make them passport and microchip every foal born to their herd, obviously not retrospectively but from say 2011, they knew the legislation was coming through so they should have ensured that they bred no more than they could afford to keep or had buyers for.  There has been an excess of these ponies for years, it is now much much worse, in my opinion the breeders are worse by far than any meatman.


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## Amymay (7 March 2011)

Personally, I do not think that ANY animal should travel miles in disgusting conditions to slaughter, and unlike the OP, I would like to see a ban on live export of ALL animals and more effort put in to making sure that the UK had enough abbatoires to make this happen. I would also like those abbatoires slaughtering cows, sheep etc to be policed more effectively by DEFRA to ensure that welfare standards are on a par with Potters or Turners.
		
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Sirena, you know that I completely agree with you.  But have to say HEAR, HEAR to a resoundingly brilliant post!!!!!!!


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## SirenaXVI (7 March 2011)

amymay said:



			Sirena, you know that I completely agree with you.  But have to say HEAR, HEAR to a resoundingly brilliant post!!!!!!!
		
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Thanks amymay, I know you feel as strongly about it as I do


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## Sadiemay (7 March 2011)

Chucking my two pence in..I could be described as a bunny hugger by some but I really dont care. I for the last 22 years (since I was 11 years old)  havent eaten meat or fish, and dont eat dairy either.  Why?  Because I find the factory farming industry abhorrent and I personally believe that in this day and age meat it is not actually necessary for meat to form part of our diet, and in fact it causes more damage than good especially to the environement but thats a whole other topic.

Its not the killing of animals for food I find particuarly offensive its the intenstive factory farming and industrial grand scale slaughtering cycle I hate, you would not believe some of the sickening crueltly and torture meat animals are subjected to.  My stomach churns  every single time I see an animal transporter literally crammed to the brim with animals on their way to meet their fate,  it gets me every single time even after all these years 

I love all animals and I would go so far as to say I prefer them to humankind at times.  What pisses me off though is people up in arms because horses go to Potters or such like but dont give a fleeting thought to the majority of the millions of cows, sheep, pigs and other such livestock that face a very grim life and grim death.  Is there really any fundamental differences between a horse and livestock other than the associated label? Do cows, sheep, pigs, goats have less intelligence than horses?  I personally dont think so and I believe all mammals feel the same level of fear, terror and pain.  

Over the last 15 years I have rescued goats and turkeys as youngsters from slaughter and all of them lived full natural lives with me.  The experience confirmed to me what I already thought and that was to find that these animals could give as much love, loyalty and companionship as one would expect with dogs, cats and horses (yes REALLY) My two goat guys, I rescued at a couple of weeks old developed dog like traits without me needing to teach them they would .come to call, walk on leads, come and try to sit on my lap for cuddles, lie down next to me if I sat down near by, follow me everywhere, call for me as soon as I was in sightI could go on but you get the picturethey were capabable of showing love and intelligence as much a dog or cat, in fact I would say much more so than my even horse who I have had the pleasure of owning for nearly 20 years and she is in general a friendly effectionate equine.  

I 100% believe the same bond can be forged with cows, sheep etc if only they were given the opportunity and not just labled as food and I surely plan to find out as soon as I have my own land. 

So with what I have written above probably makes me sound like the biggest bunny loving tree hugger in the world but because of how I feel about all animals I simply cannot recoil in horror at the topic of a horse being sent for slaughter as I have the same feeling about ALL animals.  If you find horses being slaughtered so terrible why dont you feel the same about all livestock..smacks of hypocrasy to me. 

Also I 100% agree there is a place for the meat/knacker man, he is cleaning up the terrible mess that over breading has left.  Sad but a fact.  There ARE worse fates than a swift death at the hands of the knackerman.

Sadiemay


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## mymare (7 March 2011)

Jeez is this still going on?!

It never ceases to amaze me how "animal lovers" can be so blinkered.  It saddens me there are so many so called animal lovers against humane slaughter.  Do you not think there are enough neglect cases in the U.K. without abolishing slaughter houses?  Why on Earth should we give crap owners even more of an excuse to abuse these animals through neglect?   Some of your arguments are that the horses are distressed before slaughter - maybe you're right, but wouldn't you animal "lovers" prefer half an hour or so (if that) of stress than a lifetime of it and then a slow, agonising death?  Was the Jamie Gray situation not enough?

It's time you saw the bigger picture.


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## Faithkat (7 March 2011)

The meat man goes to all the NF pony sales at Beaulieu Road and has done for decades.  He buys up all the little scrubby foals.  Better that then them ending up in the wrong homes.  I used to help a local transporter and was horrified when we had to deliver a NF yearling filly which someone bought at the Sales; she was totally wild straight off the Forest and we delivered her to the back garden of a terraced house on a council estate in Havant.  There was no rear access to the house so she had to herded through the house . . . .  I have often wondered what happened to her


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## Maesfen (7 March 2011)

amymay said:



			Sirena, you know that I completely agree with you.  But have to say HEAR, HEAR to a resoundingly brilliant post!!!!!!!
		
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Couldn't agree more.  well said.


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## martlin (7 March 2011)

marianneip said:



			driven to Italy often via Poland
		
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I don't wish to discuss horse slaughter today, but I need to say:

LOL, that is a seriously faulty sat-nav.


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## Serephin (7 March 2011)

Sadiemay said:



			was to find that these animals could give as much love, loyalty and companionship as one would expect with dogs, cats and horses
		
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Humanity finds it convenient to treat animals as soulless vessels, put on this earth for us to use and abuse.  It might prick a conscience if we were to think otherwise.

The meat man has his place.  The OP is being naive to think otherwise.  It would take a HUGE shift in consciousness before we start treating animals as sentient beings on a global scale.


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## Amaranta (7 March 2011)

Sorry OP but you are being very very naive, if we did not have people to pick up the excess animals for slaughter, what exactly do you think would happen to those animals?

I agree with others who have said we need more licensed abatoirs rather than less and we also need legislation to stop those responsible for breeding the poor little mites in the first place.  I too would like to see a law which bans live export full stop.


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## FairyLights (7 March 2011)

Hear Hear!


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## Booboos (7 March 2011)

amymay said:



			It was your assertion that the meat horses in France were suddenly being bred for 'rescue' instead - that is not correct.

However, the general 'con' was.
		
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Sorry I didn't mean overall prices in France. I meant prices in the markets where people went out of their way to rescue meat horses and inflatted the standard meat prices per animal. 

Here is a rescue set up specifically for meat horses:
http://www.phoenixasso.com/horse.php3

Unfortunately I still can't find the original article about the charity that started off rescuing meat animals, inflatted the local price unbelievably much and then re-considered their aims.


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## Amymay (7 March 2011)

Here is a rescue set up specifically for meat horses:
http://www.phoenixasso.com/horse.php3

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Yep there are several of them.  Some still in existance unfortunatley.


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## Redd (8 March 2011)

I wish you good luck with the youngster you bought, I'm sure he will turn out lovely for you.  (I have a rescue horse - I didn't rescue him though - but he is an absolute poppet, just has a few odd quirks that stem back from before he was rescued and I love him to bits)


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## omen62 (8 March 2011)

Agree with all these valid points - Cut back on breeding.  By paying twice his meat value you have given the meatman extra money to now purchase even more.  These people provide a service & not all of them ship on the hoof, they provide for zoos, etc so the animals are processed in the UK.  I believe it is thought in excess of 2000 ex racers go for meat.  How do you expect homes to be found for this amount of horses?  This is just the race horse industry, again an area that should be cutting back IMHO.  I feel it is more of a waste to see money spent on cripples when there are so many sound, viable horses going for meat.


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## Flying_Filly (8 March 2011)

sprite1978 said:



			These are emotions that we humans put on horses. I agree that its sad to see a horse go to slaughter, but its no worse than cows or sheep. I would hate this to happen to my horse, but thats because of emotions I have.
		
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Perfectly said! We humans humanise our pets. We keep them and breed from them for our own selfish needs.  

I love my animals but I am realistic about them. 

There are far worse, far less ethical things happening on this planet. For that there needs another post or four!!


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## brigantia (8 March 2011)

OP, your heart is in the right place and I think it's wonderful that you rescued that pony.

You might find more support for your viewpoint on the Fugly Blog: http://fuglyblog.com/

Cathy Atkinson, aka Fugly, is an American anti-slaughter activist who organizes horse rescues--they buy the horses at auction before the kill buyers can get them. She also writes very scathing blog posts about idiot breeders, trainers, and terrible horse owners. Her take is that slaughter is NOT humane euthanasia. The "solution" to slaughter is not breeding crap horses, training your horse so that it has a useful career and future, and, worst case scenario, humanely euthanizing older or unsound horses or horses with behavioural problems rather than selling them on to dubious characters or selling them to slaughter.

This doesn't seem to be a very popular viewpoint on this board where most people appear to support the horse slaughter industry.

Anyway, good luck with your pony!


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## SirenaXVI (8 March 2011)

brigantia said:



			OP, your heart is in the right place and I think it's wonderful that you rescued that pony.

You might find more support for your viewpoint on the Fugly Blog: http://fuglyblog.com/

Cathy Atkinson, aka Fugly, is an American anti-slaughter activist who organizes horse rescues--they buy the horses at auction before the kill buyers can get them. She also writes very scathing blog posts about idiot breeders, trainers, and terrible horse owners. Her take is that slaughter is NOT humane euthanasia. The "solution" to slaughter is not breeding crap horses, training your horse so that it has a useful career and future, and, worst case scenario, humanely euthanizing older or unsound horses or horses with behavioural problems rather than selling them on to dubious characters or selling them to slaughter.

This doesn't seem to be a very popular viewpoint on this board where most people appear to support the horse slaughter industry.

Anyway, good luck with your pony!
		
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I think you will find that Fugly is not anti slaughter, she has seen first hand what suffering a ban on horse slaughter has done to the USA equine surplus!  That suffering lays at the door of those blinkered/plain stupid people who campaigned for the anti slaughter law, I do believe Fugly calls them dumbass!  What Fugly most certainly is against are the Mexican slaughterhouses the poor unfortunate US horses now have to travel to - have you compared the two videos?

In an ideal world, all horses would be pts at home, this is NOT an ideal world and you have to be realistic not idealistic!


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## Spudlet (8 March 2011)

The US slaughter ban has been a nightmare for welfare. The horses haven't had their lives saved - they've been condemned to having to travel for thousands of miles, often in awful conditions, and a death that the US can no longer regulate. God help the horse that goes to a slaughterhouse in Mexico. Or they just get turned away to fend for themselves, and starve to death. It was a stupid ban, campaigned for by people with romantic notions of the Wild West and a distinct dislike of the real world.

Do I want horses to be slaughtered? No! I want all horses to live to a ripe old age in green fields and die in their sleep. Am I stupid enough to think that could ever happen? No! So I would sooner see a foal that was born yesterday slaughtered today, than see it end up somewhere like Amersham, and for some horses those are the only two options there are. Not all horses are loved. Not all horses have people that care enough to do the best by them. They may not be the pretty horses, or the talented horses, or the 'nice' horses. They may be the ones no one wants. But the very least all horses deserve is a humane end - and a good slaughterhouse will give that to them.

I live in the real world, and in the real world sometimes tough choices have to be made and emotion has to be taken out of the picture. Sometimes heart is not enough - you need to use your head too.


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## bono (8 March 2011)

I totally agree , in the past me previouse pony had to be pts and i was shocked when i heard what happend , its soo sick , i think it should be illegal !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111


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## lhotse (8 March 2011)

bono said:



			I totally agree , in the past me previouse pony had to be pts and i was shocked when i heard what happend , its soo sick , i think it should be illegal !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111
		
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Sorry, what exactly do you think should be illegal? Ponies being put to sleep?


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## alligator40 (8 March 2011)

Horses/Ponies should be used as a meat source.

not only is it tasty, but sustainable.

Far too many are bred for a totally uncertain future.

I see no difference from eating cute ponies than eating cute lambs or cute piglets....


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## Groom42 (8 March 2011)

Spudlet said:



			The US slaughter ban has been a nightmare for welfare. The horses haven't had their lives saved - they've been condemned to having to travel for thousands of miles, often in awful conditions, and a death that the US can no longer regulate. God help the horse that goes to a slaughterhouse in Mexico. Or they just get turned away to fend for themselves, and starve to death. It was a stupid ban, campaigned for by people with romantic notions of the Wild West and a distinct dislike of the real world.

Do I want horses to be slaughtered? No! I want all horses to live to a ripe old age in green fields and die in their sleep. Am I stupid enough to think that could ever happen? No! So I would sooner see a foal that was born yesterday slaughtered today, than see it end up somewhere like Amersham, and for some horses those are the only two options there are. Not all horses are loved. Not all horses have people that care enough to do the best by them. They may not be the pretty horses, or the talented horses, or the 'nice' horses. They may be the ones no one wants. But the very least all horses deserve is a humane end - and a good slaughterhouse will give that to them.

I live in the real world, and in the real world sometimes tough choices have to be made and emotion has to be taken out of the picture. Sometimes heart is not enough - you need to use your head too.
		
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Very, very, well said.



alligator40 said:



			Horses/Ponies should be used as a meat source.

not only is it tasty, but sustainable.

Far too many are bred for a totally uncertain future.

I see no difference from eating cute ponies than eating cute lambs or cute piglets....
		
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Alli40 - unfortunately the general JoePublic is far too sentimental about beautiful horsies and ponies for this to ever be feasible.  It's a shame, really, as it is on a similar plain to the old "veal calves" issue.  People couldn't possibly eat veal.......so cruel, after all.  Well, all these bull calves have to go somewhere, so they get shipped off to unregulated continental crates.  Now we are just about persuading the consumer that "rose" veal is ok, there are more calves that get to stay here, in regulated conditions (not crates) and are spared the awful journey and misery the other side.  Until we can rely on "hook", not "hoof" transport, far better ANY livestock destined for the pot is slaughtered here, humanely.  As the majority of meat eaters in the uk prefer to believe their dinner has never looked anything other than an anonymous joint on a polystyrene tray (God forbid it ever _bleated_, or actually had a _pulse_) I don't think we have a cat's chance of creating a PP market.


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## penhwnllys_stardust (8 March 2011)

Eryn - are you being serious?


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## Amaranta (8 March 2011)

bono said:



			I totally agree , in the past me previouse pony had to be pts and i was shocked when i heard what happend , its soo sick , i think it should be illegal !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111
		
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Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear - I despair 

Perhaps you should read some of the excellent posts on here, specifically Spudlet's and Sirena's!


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## Amymay (9 March 2011)

brigantia said:



			OP, your heart is in the right place and I think it's wonderful that you rescued that pony.

You might find more support for your viewpoint on the Fugly Blog: http://fuglyblog.com/

Cathy Atkinson, aka Fugly, is an American anti-slaughter activist who organizes horse rescues--they buy the horses at auction before the kill buyers can get them. She also writes very scathing blog posts about idiot breeders, trainers, and terrible horse owners. Her take is that slaughter is NOT humane euthanasia. The "solution" to slaughter is not breeding crap horses, training your horse so that it has a useful career and future, and, worst case scenario, humanely euthanizing older or unsound horses or horses with behavioural problems rather than selling them on to dubious characters or selling them to slaughter.

This doesn't seem to be a very popular viewpoint on this board where most people appear to support the horse slaughter industry.

Anyway, good luck with your pony!
		
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The OP's heart is most definately in the right place.  I'm sure none of us would fail to be moved by the sight of some of these animals going off to their end at the abbatoir.  

You are wrong about Fugly, I'm afraid - but I'll let you do your own research on that one.

As for not being a very popular view on this board re horse slaughter generally - you're missing, totally, the point.  

It's not that people 'support' killing horses arbitrerally - it's that they recognise that there is a need to be met, a service that is required, and a recognition that it is better to have a horse dispatched cleanly and professionaly, rather than left to dubious other operations that could emerge should our slaughter houses be closed (again check out Mexico - the suffering is beyond belief).

For all of those of you who say it that the practice is abhorrant to you what _is_ your solution.  Where do you propose the unwanted stock should go?


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## brigantia (9 March 2011)

I think you will find that Fugly is not anti slaughter, she has seen first hand what suffering a ban on horse slaughter has done to the USA equine surplus!
		
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Sirena, I've never found any evidence of this viewpoint on Cathy Atkinson's blog. If you have quote or a link, supporting your view that she is actually supports bringing back horse slaughter in the US, I would love to see it. Everything I've read on her blog would suggest otherwise. 

I do understand the point that without slaughter, where would all those neglected unwanted animals go? I just think that both sides need to be represented in these debates. Not everyone who queries the ethics of horse slaughter is a naive bunny hugger.

On Cathy's blog, she argues that responsible breeding and horse ownership go a very long way to reducing the actual need for horse slaughter.

Unfortunately none of us have the resources to rescue every single horse on the planet. But I do believe we are ethically responsible for the welfare of our own horses and seeing that our own horses don't end up as unwanted rescue cases and so on that eventually wind up at the slaughter house.


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## Spotsrock (9 March 2011)

kirstinw55 said:



			As in the title really! After visiting york horse sales last friday i ended up coming home with a 3 year old untouched new forest gelding who was predomidantly purchased by the meatman! He had the sweetest face imaginable and the most loving nature however had clearly been neglected and had had his headcoller on for months on end to the point where he had sores all over his face and one look at him being miserably yanked round the ring i knew i couldnt leave that auction allowing him to be slaughtered. A few phone calls later the meat-man agreed to sell me him for twice the price he payed for him! Cannot beleive that this is legal, especially considering it was a youngstock and broodmare auction?! How can anyone justify slaughtering horses that lives have barely just begun, moreover how can people allow these people to buy their horses! I appreciate times are hard financially but i cannot accept that this is the answer?! Opinions please!
		
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Why did you not just buy it in the ring???
The meatmen know there is usually some bunny cuddler to buy the decent youngsters from them for way more than they paid.


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## brigantia (9 March 2011)

Just wanted to add two links. These are from the archives.

This post would appear to state Fugly's anti-slaughter viewpoint fairly bluntly:
http://fuglyblog.com/?p=832

---

In this post she tries to weigh up the arguments in a more objective fashion, listing the idealist arguments (we can all join together to stop slaughter forever), the realist arguments (we probably won't be able to save every horse but we're still ethically obligated to save the horses we that can--ie to be responsible owners and not overbreed) and pessimist arguments (slaughter is a necessity--get over it!) She also links to a New York Times pro-slaughter article and says that the comments to the article contain some of the best anti-slaughter arguments she has come across. 
http://fuglyblog.com/?p=833

--

Obviously her viewpoint is not universally shared, but she presents a viewpoint not often found in this forum. There is indeed more than one side to this complex issue!


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## horsegirl (9 March 2011)

kirstinw55 said:



			3 year old untouched new forest gelding who was *predomidantly* purchased by the meatman!
		
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What does this mean OP?


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## The_snoopster (9 March 2011)

There will always be horses bred solely for the purpose of going into the meat trade, the scrubby youngsters and TB,s who end up too slow or broken down also pet horses who mentally or physically cannot do their job safely need to be dispatched whether we like it or not. I would much prefer these horses/ponies to have a short journey to a british slaughter house and killed quickly and proffesionally, than for them to endure days in a container over crowded to a foreign one.
OP I wish you luck with your pony I really do, but your pony is just one pebble on the beach. Since man first tasted meat animals became our prey, I eat meat so not a bunnyhugger but lets make sure its been raised and slaughtered in a humane way.


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## gemin1eye (9 March 2011)

When I was a young farmer I raised a meat calf to show at the local county show, then she went off to slaughter. She was just as intelligent, loving, gentle and sweet as any horse. She learned to come to call, I'd walk her on a halter and someone once commented that I looked like I was walking a really big dog. If you don't think cows are as intelligent and feel pain as readily as horses, then you really are quite ignorant.


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## Queenbee (9 March 2011)

use a name said:



			Have to say good point
		
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serious question but if you had to choose, which would you chose to go live to slaughter over the other?  A pig or a horse?


I only ask, since pigs are the fourth most intelligent creatures on the planet, how exactly are we supposed to differentiate between which animals are above live slaughter and which are beneath us giving a damn?  After going to the sales myself I would far rather some horses go to slaughter as opposed to being bumped from one cr appy owner to another, with regular showings at the local sales.

It may sit badly with you but horses are actually used in the food chain, it doesn't exactly make me feel warm and bubbly thinking about it but it is a fact.  There are many cultures that would wish we didn't slaughter pigs and cows.

Slaughter houses are actually (for the most part) professionally run establishments, it is not perfect but it is far better than the alternative, or do you propose we ship them out live?


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## lhotse (9 March 2011)

To the OP
Can I ask if you have a dog or cat? If so, can you say with your hand on your heart that you never feed it anything made with horsemeat?


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## Ranyhyn (9 March 2011)

What is this, the tweenies???

Animals need to be slaughtered.  Until every single animal in the UK is owned by a person who doesn't want to eat them and is happy to put them down via a vets/hunt...there is a NEED for slaughterhouses.

I can't belive I'm even reading this!


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## KarynK (9 March 2011)

YasandCrystal said:



			... The Gemans have it right - there is no indiscrimate breeding in Germany - all mares are selected and stallions licensed. They do not have this market problem with poorly conformed foals and youngstock then being sold for a few £s., which is upsetting for everyone...
		
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That is not strictly true, No continentals don't have scrubby ponies BUT they do breed substandard foals unfortunately it happens when you breed sometimes, what they have got right is that when a horse is produced that is sub standard it is refused papers and so they eat it end of story. 

Unfortunately British dealers have long cottoned onto this and have while the going was good been buying up their MOT failures and bringing them to the UK to sell to those that would like a Warm-blood but can't afford a papered one!  These horses end up at these substandard markets and join the washing cycle that a lot of our own horses find themselves in passing from home to home before the inevitable happens.

I don't like the thought of this happening to a horse of mine and have intentionally kept a youngster on until riding age as I don't want her going to someone who then cannot afford to keep her,  but slaughterhouses especially in the current climate are ESSENTIAL without them you would be driving past dumped carcasses left all over the place, some of those would have been ineptly destroyed by a bungling amateur!  Not everyone with inferior, old or infirm horses can afford to pay the vet or even the knacker-man nor are they able to dig a big enough hole if they were still allowed to! 

We have had five carcasses dumped in Hampshire over the past 6 months imagine what would happen without a legitimate means of slaughter.  

I would also like to point out to the OP that it's not only scrubby ponies that end up in the slaughter situation.  Riding horses and even pet ones are prone to injury and sadly not everyone can keep them indefinitely till they pass peacefully away in their paddock, horses even miniature ones are expensive to keep from a feed and vet care perspective.  Slaughter houses provide an alternative means of disposal with acceptable travel distances and also in a way encourage at least the continued feeding of horses from less desirable homes wishing to make some cash.

Yes it is happy ending for this one pony among the many that has been saved but to condemn Slaughter as a method of disposal of unwanted or sub standard animals is naive and in some ways irresponsible, there may in the end be less sub standard animals bred from but there will always be sub standard animals produced when you breed and for that eventuality you need a means of disposal.


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## brigantia (10 March 2011)

I think you will find that Fugly is not anti slaughter, she has seen first hand what suffering a ban on horse slaughter has done to the USA equine surplus!
		
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I would still be very curious to see *an actual link *to support this. I have never seen her support slaughter in the US or anywhere on her blog. 

No one in this thread has produced any actual evidence that a slaughter ban increases horse neglect, in the US or anywhere else. 

The slaughter industry works for profit because there is a demand for horse meat. It doesn't exist with the sole purpose of helping people get rid of unwanted horses. If the demand for horse meat dried up, so would the slaughter industry. 

You can also argue, as Fugly has on her blog (I supplied the actual links in my previous post), that the meat industry provides feckless breeders, hoarders, faux rescues, and irresponsible owners with an easy way out. If they breed or "ruin" too many horses, they can cut their losses by selling them to slaughter. If this option were not available and they had to euthanise and dispose of these animals at their own expense, they might be forced to make more prudent choices.


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## FizzyFanta (10 March 2011)

My Pony was a last gasp bid to stop him from going on the cattle truck by the lady we got him from, He is a very well bred pony from good blood lines etc and he has a lot of potential. He was bidded on as he looked to well made to be wasted.  My little girl loves him to bits and we are planning our first trip to the show's this summer, he is well trained now and is coming on well in all areas that a young pony can.

The New Forest pony sale at Beaulieu Road Pony Sales is 1 a place where owners can sell there ponies for new owners to enjoy or a place where commoners sell there stock for whatever purpose the bidder wishes, They dont breed bad ponies or breed just to breed but the breeding is controled through Stallion licenceing and if you want a blood line you need to find the place to put your mare to mate the correct stallion. some look at it as a way of making a living so they look at them as cattle, not a future childs pony to be loved etc, they have no emotional tye to the ponies so looking outside the box unless you want a pony from a stallion dont go to the sales as they are upsetting for some knowing the fate of perfectly god horses/ponies. Some of the ponies are sold so that they can't be bidded on by the meat men, but the ones that are open to any bids are mainly from cattle stock not from the likes of us.  

I think that it should be against the law to sell a domesticated/pet horse/pony for meat but if they are gathered from the forest (farmed as such) then it is the owners choice how they sell and for what purpose.  I don't think that stud farms would sell any stock at these sales as they are bred for working life not to make a small living. 

A strong subject but one you need to look away from your own horses and how you feel about them to seeing how a farmer would see any of there live stock.


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## Amymay (10 March 2011)

I think that it should be against the law to sell a domesticated/pet horse/pony for meat
		
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Why FizzyFanta??


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## FizzyFanta (10 March 2011)

I just feel that if you have take on the responsibility then you should be made to ensure that the long life of the animal is protected, If the animal then has a injury that will have a effect on the life then maybe sloughter is an option but a healthy horse that you have taken on should be protected from neglect and slougter is a form of neglect in my mind...

Just an opinion on the subject....


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## *hic* (10 March 2011)

I'm fascinated. In what way do you consider slaughter a form of neglect?


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## Ranyhyn (10 March 2011)

Slaughter is a form of neglect.

I didn't know you could neglect a dead animal. 

Or is the the very thought of slaughter tantamount to neglect??  Or are the seconds before an animal is slaughtered, the neglectful part?

I'd love some more tutoring on your viewpoint FF..


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## Henry's mum (10 March 2011)

Kitsune said:



			Slaughter is a form of neglect.

I didn't know you could neglect a dead animal. 

Or is the the very thought of slaughter tantamount to neglect??  Or are the seconds before an animal is slaughtered, the neglectful part?

I'd love some more tutoring on your viewpoint FF..
		
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I'm with you on this one ^^^^ lol


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## FizzyFanta (10 March 2011)

It may be a fast way to end a life so not a form of neglect in the sence of not feeding over a long time but a neglect to the life it self.  If I had a litter of puppies and sold 9 of 10 but could not sell the 10th and did not want it my self and it reached 3 months and still I had no new home would it be fare to take it to the vet and have it put down just because I did not want to give the time to find a good home for it? or if I got a Boxer with a tail and after a short time wanted a boxer with no tail would it be ok to have it put down just so i could own one with no tail? 

My point on neglect is a neglect of responsibility..


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## FizzyFanta (10 March 2011)

Please note this is only my view on this subject and not me trying to preach or quote exact meanings from the oxford....


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## Henry's mum (10 March 2011)

FizzyFanta said:



			It may be a fast way to end a life so not a form of neglect in the sence of not feeding over a long time but a neglect to the life it self.  If I had a litter of puppies and sold 9 of 10 but could not sell the 10th and did not want it my self and it reached 3 months and still I had no new home would it be fare to take it to the vet and have it put down just because I did not want to give the time to find a good home for it? or if I got a Boxer with a tail and after a short time wanted a boxer with no tail would it be ok to have it put down just so i could own one with no tail? 

My point on neglect is a neglect of responsibility..
		
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OK, but on the otherhand, say you had a 26 year old horse, you lost your grazing and job and couldn't afford to keep the horse, would you think it fair to rehome that horse, even if you thought it was a good home? To be with strangers and away from the previous life, or would it be kinder to end it's life?


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## flyingfeet (10 March 2011)

I wasn't going to post, but I cannot resist

If you have livestock you have deadstock - its a matter of fact and an unavoidable truth. 

Your responsibility as an owner is to *respect* your animal and treat it in a humane fashion 

Horse slaughter in a UK approved abattoir is humane slaughter
Slaughter by a professional is humane slaughter (i.e. vet, huntsman)

The grey part is the use non regulated abattoirs (see lovely mexican slaughter houses), attempts to end life by amateurs and finally not doing anything when a horse is suffering 

Now slaughterhouses - I have no issue with as they are usually better trained then a vet, however my loyal servants will not have to endure the "journey" which is what I object to. What happens to the carcass is irrelevant as the spirit has gone, but it should be respected - i.e. buried or fed to continue the circle of life. 

If slaughterhouses were banned, we end up with black market slaughter going on - see the man in the paper who "killed greyhounds". Or even longer travel across Europe

So long may the UK have fantastic high welfare, high standard abattoirs.


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## Ranyhyn (10 March 2011)

I would MUCH prefer you took ANY animal to be humanely destroyed - than giving it somewhere unsuitable.

Sadly in this world we have too many animals and not enough people who can look after them properly.

Until that balance is re-addressed, slaughter is a hugely viable method of despatch!


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## miss_bird (10 March 2011)

I feel there would still be room for more like turners and potters in this country and i would have no problems sending one of mine to them if needed.
I have been fortunate that up unti now my horses have been pts at home and cremated, for sentimental reasons.
But if i ended up with a youngster from the sales to break and it was dangerous then i would have no qualms about the slaughter house, it is quick and they dont know what is happenening.
Sure that is better than years of neglect.
FF- neglect of responsibility is leaving an animal uncared for, being responsible is making the difficult decision to end an animals life in a quick and humane manner


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## brigantia (10 March 2011)

Sirenna and others, here is a direct quote and link from Cathy Atkinson on her Fugly Blog firmly stating her position on equine slaughter. Her statement is in the comments if you scroll down from the entry: 

http://fuglyblog.com/?p=2722&cpage=1#comment-91456

Her quote, which she gave me permission to repost: 

I support, 100%, the ban on equine slaughter in the United States. I do not oppose veterinary euthanasia of horses for which no decent home can be found. I also do not oppose euthanasia via gunshot by a person who knows how to do it correctly, at the horses home. I would like to see a ban on ANY transport of horses in double-deckers, and I would like to see restrictions put in place that would make it financially not sensible to send horses to Canada or Mexico for slaughter, including testing for the presence of drugs not allowed in animals for human consumption.

Feel free to repost that!

Oh, and I blame THE ECONOMY and IRRESPONSIBLE PEOPLE for horse welfare issues.


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## SirenaXVI (11 March 2011)

brigantia said:



			Sirenna and others, here is a direct quote and link from Cathy Atkinson on her Fugly Blog firmly stating her position on equine slaughter. Her statement is in the comments if you scroll down from the entry: 

http://fuglyblog.com/?p=2722&cpage=1#comment-91456

Her quote, which she gave me permission to repost: 

I support, 100%, the ban on equine slaughter in the United States. I do not oppose veterinary euthanasia of horses for which no decent home can be found. I also do not oppose euthanasia via gunshot by a person who knows how to do it correctly, at the horses home. I would like to see a ban on ANY transport of horses in double-deckers, and I would like to see restrictions put in place that would make it financially not sensible to send horses to Canada or Mexico for slaughter, including testing for the presence of drugs not allowed in animals for human consumption.

Feel free to repost that!

Oh, and I blame THE ECONOMY and IRRESPONSIBLE PEOPLE for horse welfare issues.
		
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I think you will find that Fugly is against horses travelling to  Mexico/Canada via the killer buyers.  You say that you 100% support the US ban, so do what do you think it has achieved in the terms of equine welfare?  I am curious to know, as, as far as I can see, the ban has caused 
far more suffering.


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## Amymay (11 March 2011)

You say that you 100% support the US ban, so do what do you think it has achieved in the terms of equine welfare? I am curious to know, as, as far as I can see, the ban has caused far more suffering.
		
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Exactly.  It's actually beyond comprehension that anyone _could_ be opposed to a registered and regulated facillity once you see what's going on in the States and as a result Mexico.


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## Brandy (11 March 2011)

I have bought horses and ponies from sales. I never paid very much for them (pittance really) and have always kept them. I currently have one that I have had for 12 years, another out on loan, and another doing 'conservation grazing' as she was a bit wild. I didn;t buy from the meat man so not sure that I am perpetuating a causing a problem with my 'rescue' efforts. I no longer go to sales though, as I can;t take any more. 

It IS down to the breeding. Well respected native pony breeders included - 10 newly weaned foals to the hunt kennels becuase they had no buyers? Don't effing well breed them then!

Its an emotive subject, I like many don't like the idea of horse salughter but MUCh less like the idea of neglect.

All of mine have a home for life and will be PTS if I can no longer provide for them.


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## Black_Horse_White (11 March 2011)

I'm sorry but I disagree with the statement that what about cows & sheep. Horses are part of our history, they worked down the pits on the farms & were used for transport. Not to mention pulling barges along our canal networks. I think they helped us become what we are today so therefore should be protected by us. We've discarded them now they are no longer useful. So I know let's start eating them.


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## Amaranta (11 March 2011)

Black_Horse_White said:



			I'm sorry but I disagree with the statement that what about cows & sheep. Horses are part of our history, they worked down the pits on the farms & were used for transport. Not to mention pulling barges along our canal networks. I think they helped us become what we are today so therefore should be protected by us. We've discarded them now they are no longer useful. So I know let's start eating them.
		
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Umm I don't think anyone is saying that we should all en mass start eating horses. what people are, quite rightly saying, is that ALL domesticated animals should be treated with respect, we owe EVERY animal in our care this respect not just horses!

Anyway that is not the argument, the argument is over horse slaughter!


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## Amaranta (11 March 2011)

brigantia said:



			Sirenna and others, here is a direct quote and link from Cathy Atkinson on her Fugly Blog firmly stating her position on equine slaughter. Her statement is in the comments if you scroll down from the entry: 

http://fuglyblog.com/?p=2722&cpage=1#comment-91456

Her quote, which she gave me permission to repost: 

I support, 100%, the ban on equine slaughter in the United States. I do not oppose veterinary euthanasia of horses for which no decent home can be found. I also do not oppose euthanasia via gunshot by a person who knows how to do it correctly, at the horses home. I would like to see a ban on ANY transport of horses in double-deckers, and I would like to see restrictions put in place that would make it financially not sensible to send horses to Canada or Mexico for slaughter, including testing for the presence of drugs not allowed in animals for human consumption.

Feel free to repost that!

Oh, and I blame THE ECONOMY and IRRESPONSIBLE PEOPLE for horse welfare issues.
		
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Can't get the link to work


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## Queenbee (11 March 2011)

Black_Horse_White said:



			I'm sorry but I disagree with the statement that what about cows & sheep. Horses are part of our history, they worked down the pits on the farms & were used for transport. Not to mention pulling barges along our canal networks. I think they helped us become what we are today so therefore should be protected by us. We've discarded them now they are no longer useful. So I know let's start eating them.
		
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cows, sheep and pigs are part of our history too, fine, predominantly they have been used for food but pigs have been used to hunt for truffles, sheep have been shawn for their wool, horses, yes have worked down the pits and helped with ploughing, barges and transport, but all that is part of 'industry' not pet keeping.

There is a place for slaughter, it's not a perfect world but its a lot better than other alternatives.


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## navaho (11 March 2011)

queenbee said:



			cows, sheep and pigs are part of our history too, fine, predominantly they have been used for food but pigs have been used to hunt for truffles, sheep have been shawn for their wool, horses, yes have worked down the pits and helped with ploughing, barges and transport, but all that is part of 'industry' not pet keeping.

There is a place for slaughter, it's not a perfect world but its a lot better than other alternatives.
		
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Totally agree with this, & to be honest whether we like this idea of slaughter or not sadly there is a need for it.


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## pigsmight:) (11 March 2011)

Its a really difficult and highly emotive subject isnt it, whilst i am not against humane slaughter as lets be honest there are far too many unwanted horses.. it is a shame to think that nice young horses dont get a chance

I actually bought a horse from this sale when your little guy went through, a verry sweet little pony may i add and im glad that he has a chance and the best of luck with him, we bought 16.3hh worth of big orange 6yr old sports horse   i imagine that he was probably be hedding in the same direction as your fella was.... he is v v green but has a lovely outlook on life i have no idea how he ended up at york sales and will probably never know anything about his past but at least he now will have a future  

Just to add i dont think i rescued him i just saw a rough looking but nice young horse that i thought would probably do a job, i have helped him out and im sure he will help me out in the future.. i have got a bit of a thing for big orange horses 
xxx


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## Queenbee (11 March 2011)

I think that basically it comes down to this:

We have all heard the saying: 'A fate worse than death', there are worse things than death, and whilst I am a softie at heart, it is a fact that a great deal of horses that end up going to slaughter are saved from that fate.  Lets be sensible, we all know that the meat man is in it for profit, not to spare these horses, but that is life.  I challenge anyone to say that if a horse is neglected and mistreated and pushed from pillar to post for the first 20 years of its life then ends up with a kind owner in the final years, that its first 20 years of suffering were worth that!  I would far rather it be put down a lot sooner, it is infact far kinder, loving and more humane.  There is also the argument for not wasting a perfectly good food source, or would you have us breed more typically meat source animals such as said pigs, cows and sheep, humanely put down a horse and just discard its remains.


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## brigantia (11 March 2011)

I think you will find that Fugly is against horses travelling to Mexico/Canada via the killer buyers. You say that you 100% support the US ban, so do what do you think it has achieved in the terms of equine welfare? I am curious to know, as, as far as I can see, the ban has caused 
far more suffering.
		
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Sirenna, please go back and read my post. That quote is from Cathy Atkinson, aka Fugly, not from me. That is her professed opinion and she has devoted her life to speaking out against the slaughter industry. *It's not just Mexican slaughter that she condemns*, as she has stated very explicitly.

What evidence do you have that a slaughter ban causes more suffering? Euthanasia exists for when a horse no longer has a good quality of life. If a person can't afford to give their horse a good death in familiar surroundings, I think that person can't actually afford the horse. Responsible ownership and breeding go a very long way in preventing welfare issues!

On the topic of differentiating horses from other livestock--most horses aren't raised as livestock and they often have drugs such as Bute in their systems which renders them unfit for human consumption. Does the slaughter house look at the passport to see which drugs have been administered? Bute is carcinogenic when consumed by humans in horsemeat. 

Re the link to the Fugly blog--I think they were doing maintenance today. Hopefully the link will be working again soon.


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## Amaranta (11 March 2011)

brigantia said:



			Sirenna, please go back and read my post. That quote is from Cathy Atkinson, aka Fugly, not from me. That is her professed opinion and she has devoted her life to speaking out against the slaughter industry. *It's not just Mexican slaughter that she condemns*, as she has stated very explicitly.

What evidence do you have that a slaughter ban causes more suffering? Euthanasia exists for when a horse no longer has a good quality of life. If a person can't afford to give their horse a good death in familiar surroundings, I think that person can't actually afford the horse. Responsible ownership and breeding go a very long way in preventing welfare issues!

On the topic of differentiating horses from other livestock--most horses aren't raised as livestock and they often have drugs such as Bute in their systems which renders them unfit for human consumption. Does the slaughter house look at the passport to see which drugs have been administered? Bute is carcinogenic when consumed by humans in horsemeat. 

Re the link to the Fugly blog--I think they were doing maintenance today. Hopefully the link will be working again soon.
		
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I think you may have missed the point.  I don't think people are 'pro' slaughter necessarily but do you actually realise what happens to the surplus US stock now that slaughter is banned there?  Do you really think that ALL american owners have their horses put down at home?  If this was indeed the case then Fugly would not have to save any horses from the 'killer' buyers.  Why do you think they are called 'killer' buyers?  What do you think happens to all the horses they buy, in, by the way, a country that has banned slaughter?  How can you possibly think that there are no welfare issues????????????


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## SirenaXVI (11 March 2011)

brigantia said:



			Sirenna, please go back and read my post. That quote is from Cathy Atkinson, aka Fugly, not from me. That is her professed opinion and she has devoted her life to speaking out against the slaughter industry. *It's not just Mexican slaughter that she condemns*, as she has stated very explicitly.

What evidence do you have that a slaughter ban causes more suffering? Euthanasia exists for when a horse no longer has a good quality of life. If a person can't afford to give their horse a good death in familiar surroundings, I think that person can't actually afford the horse. Responsible ownership and breeding go a very long way in preventing welfare issues!

On the topic of differentiating horses from other livestock--most horses aren't raised as livestock and they often have drugs such as Bute in their systems which renders them unfit for human consumption. Does the slaughter house look at the passport to see which drugs have been administered? Bute is carcinogenic when consumed by humans in horsemeat. 

Re the link to the Fugly blog--I think they were doing maintenance today. Hopefully the link will be working again soon.
		
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Sirena - one n

What evidence that american horses are suffering more because of the ban?

Here - warning graphic and upsetting
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

and here 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjupLRciBi4

and here on the way to Mexico/Canada
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpVCBZAqR70
and here also on their way

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEFJTUYOgOw
and here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUZSV2dHugM
and here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KBhaeOp2yA



Jesus!  I cannot believe that you think this is OK?  THIS IS A DIRECT RESULT OF THE BAN ON SLAUGHTER IN THE USA - it has made death much more painful for millions of horses, if you cannot see that then you are blind! 

Yes, I would like to see all horses euthanised humanely at home, but I recognise that the slaughter house is a necessary evil, I would hate to see a ban in this country as then ALL our surplus would be shipped to France or Italy.  At least in a British slaughterhouse they are treated calmly and humanely!

Why on earth do you think that cows, sheep, pigs and goats deserve lesser treatment than horses, in your blinkered fashion do you think they feel less pain?  Why are they any less deserving of respect than the horse or the dog?  They have also served us well throughout history.

There are none so blind than those who refuse to see.


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## brigantia (11 March 2011)

Sirenna, I believe that this is your sincerely held personal opinion, but I don't think you can prove that the US slaughter ban caused these issues. People dropping the ball on their horses caused these issues. 

There's no evidence that horses didn't suffer just as much when horse slaughter in the US was still legal. I realize this is an emotive subject, but getting angry at people whose opinion differs from yours won't shed any light. 

What about the presence of Bute and other meds in horses that makes their meat carcinogenic to humans? I think this differentiates horses from other livestock, as I have stated. All animals deserve to be treated with dignity but there's no actual reason why in 2011 we have to eat horses. 

Worldwide, the demand for meat in general--not just horsemeat--appears to be declining. I heard on Radio 4 the other day that even McDonald's is losing market share to the less meat-centric Subway franchise. As world obesity rates and heart disease boom, people are turning away from excess consumption of animal protein for general health reasons. The slaughter industry might bottom out as demand wanes anyway.


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## SirenaXVI (11 March 2011)

Brigannttaa do the math, I will keep it simple so you can understand. The backyard breeders in the USA breed too many substandard horses that nobody wants to buy, now once upon a time those horses went to market, were bought by the killer buyers and were slaughtered fairly locally by a slaughterhouse which adhered to government standards on welfare.

Fast forward to a time when misguided individuals campaigned successfully for an end to slaughter in the USA.  The backyard breeders continue to breed substandard horses that nobody wants to buy, they send them to market where they are bought by the killer buyers, they are then journeyed in appalling conditions to either Canada (if they are lucky) or Mexico where they use a KNIFE to sever the spinal cord, the animal is not stunned before this happens, death is not instantaneous and it can take several stabs of the knife for the poor traumatised animal to actually be paralysed enough not to feel anything, it then slowly bleeds to death.  NOW tell me that there has not been any evidence of more suffering.

The only thing I can agree with you is that these breeders (and that includes those in the UK) need to be stopped from producing animals that they can neither keep nor sell.  Since the ban on slaughter, they have not seen the error of their ways and none of them have the compassion to have animals that they are responsible for pts at home.  This is FACT and it will never change until these people are hit in the pocket or put in front of a firing squad!

To be honest, I don't give a monkeys fart about the presence of Bute and other meds, that is what we have passports for, and, any horse taken to either of the slaughter houses in the UK has to have a passport, which IS checked before the horse is humanely put down by shotgun to the brain.  If you have any firm evidence that this does not happen at either Turners or Potters then I would be glad to hear it.

I don't eat horsemeat but I do eat meat, I have no problem with people eating any meat, including horse. My concern is only that the animal has a nice life and a good death.

Also sorry but the demand for meat will not ever decline enough for the slaughter industry to wane, it may drop a little but will never ever go away.


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## Maesfen (11 March 2011)

Agree with Sirena completely.  You have to thank heaven that our country is as small as it is so animals don't have to endure a huge journey in horrendous conditions and are treated with respect by the handlers too.  America should hang its head in shame at what they are asking those horses to go through.


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## Amymay (11 March 2011)

Friggin hell brigantia are you actually serious that the Mexico situation isn't as a result of US slaughter ban? I really am  gobsmacked that you are either so misinformed, blinkered or dare I say plain stupid. Unbelievable!


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## Amaranta (12 March 2011)

Maesfen said:



			Agree with Sirena completely.  You have to thank heaven that our country is as small as it is so animals don't have to endure a huge journey in horrendous conditions and are treated with respect by the handlers too.  America should hang its head in shame at what they are asking those horses to go through.
		
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Well said!


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## Spudlet (12 March 2011)

People get so hooked up on slaughter, but it is very much a side issue. In fact, in some circumstances I would rather a horse be pts by an experienced slaughterman than by a vet, who may well have far less experience depending on their background, whether they specialise in horses and how long they have been doing the job.

The REAL issues are many - here are just three of them:
The long-distance transportation of horses to slaughter in Europe. When tens of thousands of horses are being carted from Poland, Romania, Lithuania, Latvia etc etc to Italy with no water, no rest, no food, injuries, disease, fear as many of them will never have been on a lorry before - THAT is an issue.

Overbreeding - when horses and ponies are bred for no good reason than 'oh my mare is unable to be ridden, so I'll put her in foal', 'foals are so cute, I want one', 'I'll make a quick buck here from this foal, who cares where it ends up' - THAT is an issue.

Irresponsible owners - 'My horse is old and can't be ridden, I don't want to keep it, I don't know anyone else that needs a companion, but I can't bear to think of having it pts so I'll loan it out to a complete stranger or sell it for a few quid and make sure I don't think of where it might end up lalalalalalala not thinking about it' - THAT is an issue.

There are LOTS of REAL problems in the horseworld, don't waste energy on one that isn't a real problem for the most important ones of all - the horses.


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## brigantia (12 March 2011)

Spudlet, where is your evidence that a trained vet is less competent at humanely putting a horse down than a slaughter house professional? 

This is an emotive subject. There are at least two sides to every issue. I'm happy to debate those sides, but dismayed by the way that anyone on this board, including the well-intentioned OP, gets shot down for daring to criticise the slaughter industry. 

Instead of dishing out personal insults and calling people ignorant and stupid because they disagree with us, I think it's better to stick to actual facts.

I didn't even want to do more than post the link to Fugly's blog so the OP would know that she wasn't the only person on the planet to question the ethics of equine slaughter, but then Sirenna and others falsely stated that Fugly only criticized Mexican slaughter and thought US slaughter was okay, I then felt obliged to refute this by going to the source. Cathy Atkinson was kind enough to reply to me and substantiate her view that she is anti-slaughter and wholly approves of the US slaughter ban and does not hold the slaughter ban in any way responsible for horse welfare issues in the US. 

There seems as much wilful ignorance and misinformation in the pro-slaughter side as the anti-slaughter side. 

We're more likely to actually have a dialogue if we can exchange facts rather than insults.


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## brigantia (12 March 2011)

*Facts relating to the equine slaughter debate*

Here is evidence of a deliberate and misleading media campaign connecting the US slaughter ban to an increase in neglect. This is not true. In fact, abuse and neglect cases actually went down after the US slaughter ban went into effect:

http://www.kaufmanzoning.net/DeletingtheFictionShortPaper.pdf

It is a fallacy to connect neglect, cruelty, and hoarding to a slaughter ban. If people do insist this is true, could they please cite impartial sources?

During the years when horse slaughter was still legal in the US, they were still exporting horses to Mexico and Canada. In addition, Canadian horses were being exported for slaughter in the United States. Thus, legal slaughter in the US did nothing to stop the transport of horses for slaughter to foreign countries.

Slaughter does not exist as a "service" for horse disposal. It is a profit-driven industry operating on the laws of supply and demand. Most horses who go to slaughter are healthy. The slaughter industry does not want ill or emaciated horses. This is why ex-race horses are slaughtered in large numbers--because they are available when they are still young and tender. Most old, neglected, or abandoned horses are not going to be desirable for meat. This is why slaughter isn't a quick fix solution to situations like the appalling neglect at Spindles Farm or most of the abandoned horses in Ireland. 

In the US, only about 1% of horses are exported for slaughter for human consumption--this is in accordance with the European demand for horse meat. Slaughter as a business is not going to increase and open abbatoirs in every corner of Britain just because people perceive an oversupply of unwanted horses. Demand drives the business, not the supply.

Mexico is not the only place in the world where slaughter has found to be inhumane. Two Canadian slaughter plants financed by Belgians to slaughter US and Canadian horses for the European meat market have now closed due to CFIA laws for multiple environmental and animal welfare violations.

In France, a major consumer of horse meat, consumption, and thus demand, for horse meat has declined. The slaughter industry won't vanish overnight, but meat consumption in general is in decline. 

Horses are generally not bred and raised as livestock meant to be eaten. They are raised as companion animals, work animals, and sport animals, rather than meatstock. Bute, ivermectin, fly spray, vaccinations, and anti-biotics will state that they are "not for use on animals intended for human consumption." All phenylbutazone products render an animal unfit for human consumption and are carcinogenic when consumed by humans. Given the choice, wouldn't you rather consume organic meat from animals specifically and humanely raised for meat?

Every horse that is rescued from slaughter and that is well-looked-after contributes to the economy, supporting feed merchants, livery yards, vets, trainers, saddleries, and farriers. 

Horse ownership is voluntary. With this choice comes responsibility.  

Not everyone who has ethical qualms about equine slaughter is a militant vegan bunny hugger. A critical mass of people succeeded in banning slaughter in the US. The same thing could happen in the European Union. As general meat consumption declines, we might be seeing a decline in the equine slaughter industry in any case.


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## Natch (12 March 2011)

kirstinw55 said:



			In my opinion tho cows and sheep do not have the same affectionate value a person shares with their horse! Sure some people would disagree with that but that is just what i believe, and of course lamb and beef is a huge trade in our country but would like to think its extremely unheard of for anyone to eat horse in england!
		
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So what you are saying is that in your opinion horses in the UK deserve endings which are easier for the human to accept (PTS at home not slaughter at an abbatoir), more than cattle or sheep, and, presumably, more than horses on the continent? And the differences in what the different species or herds deserve is because of mankind's affection for them in any given state? 



Spudlet said:



			The reason that horses go to slaughter is that there are too many of them - so perhaps we should look to the number of horses being bred rather than looking at the outcome of this - surplus horses ending up being slaughtered.
		
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Spot on.



kirstinw55 said:



			Im not looking to argue and debate this! Just feel particularly upset that the sweet little pony i brought home with me lived 3 years of neglect to be killed!
		
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It is a sad story for sure, but its the neglect that would be better tackled, rather than the slaughter end of it. Let's face it, we have a highly regulated slaughter industry here in the UK, and a horse's experience in a slaughterhouse will last for what, a few minutes? Compare that with the 3 years of neglect and then tell me which you'd rather deal with first.



Spudlet said:



			People get so hooked up on slaughter, but it is very much a side issue. In fact, in some circumstances I would rather a horse be pts by an experienced slaughterman than by a vet, who may well have far less experience depending on their background, whether they specialise in horses and how long they have been doing the job.

The REAL issues are many - here are just three of them:
The long-distance transportation of horses to slaughter in Europe. When tens of thousands of horses are being carted from Poland, Romania, Lithuania, Latvia etc etc to Italy with no water, no rest, no food, injuries, disease, fear as many of them will never have been on a lorry before - THAT is an issue.

Overbreeding - when horses and ponies are bred for no good reason than 'oh my mare is unable to be ridden, so I'll put her in foal', 'foals are so cute, I want one', 'I'll make a quick buck here from this foal, who cares where it ends up' - THAT is an issue.

Irresponsible owners - 'My horse is old and can't be ridden, I don't want to keep it, I don't know anyone else that needs a companion, but I can't bear to think of having it pts so I'll loan it out to a complete stranger or sell it for a few quid and make sure I don't think of where it might end up lalalalalalala not thinking about it' - THAT is an issue.

There are LOTS of REAL problems in the horseworld, don't waste energy on one that isn't a real problem for the most important ones of all - the horses.
		
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Most sensible post on H&H for a long time


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## Jennyharvey (12 March 2011)

brigantia said:



*Facts relating to the equine slaughter debate*

Here is evidence of a deliberate and misleading media campaign connecting the US slaughter ban to an increase in neglect. This is not true. In fact, abuse and neglect cases actually went down after the US slaughter ban went into effect:

http://www.kaufmanzoning.net/DeletingtheFictionShortPaper.pdf

It is a fallacy to connect neglect, cruelty, and hoarding to a slaughter ban. If people do insist this is true, could they please cite impartial sources?

During the years when horse slaughter was still legal in the US, they were still exporting horses to Mexico and Canada. In addition, Canadian horses were being exported for slaughter in the United States. Thus, legal slaughter in the US did nothing to stop the transport of horses for slaughter to foreign countries.

Slaughter does not exist as a "service" for horse disposal. It is a profit-driven industry operating on the laws of supply and demand. Most horses who go to slaughter are healthy. The slaughter industry does not want ill or emaciated horses. This is why ex-race horses are slaughtered in large numbers--because they are available when they are still young and tender. Most old, neglected, or abandoned horses are not going to be desirable for meat. This is why slaughter isn't a quick fix solution to situations like the appalling neglect at Spindles Farm or most of the abandoned horses in Ireland. 

In the US, only about 1% of horses are exported for slaughter for human consumption--this is in accordance with the European demand for horse meat. Slaughter as a business is not going to increase and open abbatoirs in every corner of Britain just because people perceive an oversupply of unwanted horses. Demand drives the business, not the supply.

Mexico is not the only place in the world where slaughter has found to be inhumane. Two Canadian slaughter plants financed by Belgians to slaughter US and Canadian horses for the European meat market have now closed due to CFIA laws for multiple environmental and animal welfare violations.

In France, a major consumer of horse meat, consumption, and thus demand, for horse meat has declined. The slaughter industry won't vanish overnight, but meat consumption in general is in decline. 

Horses are generally not bred and raised as livestock meant to be eaten. They are raised as companion animals, work animals, and sport animals, rather than meatstock. Bute, ivermectin, fly spray, vaccinations, and anti-biotics will state that they are "not for use on animals intended for human consumption." All phenylbutazone products render an animal unfit for human consumption and are carcinogenic when consumed by humans. Given the choice, wouldn't you rather consume organic meat from animals specifically and humanely raised for meat?

Every horse that is rescued from slaughter and that is well-looked-after contributes to the economy, supporting feed merchants, livery yards, vets, trainers, saddleries, and farriers. 

Horse ownership is voluntary. With this choice comes responsibility.  

Not everyone who has ethical qualms about equine slaughter is a militant vegan bunny hugger. A critical mass of people succeeded in banning slaughter in the US. The same thing could happen in the European Union. As general meat consumption declines, we might be seeing a decline in the equine slaughter industry in any case.
		
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Well, i am a vegan bunny hugger.  And i am against killing all animals.  And all animal suffering.  But i believe that death is a much better option than what an animal might otherwise have to endure.  
I am not in favour of slaughter houses, for any animal, i would much rather see a horse shot humanly by someone who actually cares.  Not just by someone who sees an animals as a hunk of meat.  
I dont really see killing a horse in a slaughter house as being any different from killing any other animal.  We live in a very spieciesism world, where we value some animals more than others.  
Which is in my opinion, wrong.  No animal deserves to end up in a slaughterhouse, but if we treat them like comodities, they will.


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## Spudlet (12 March 2011)

brigantia said:



			Spudlet, where is your evidence that a trained vet is less competent at humanely putting a horse down than a slaughter house professional?
		
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An experienced slaughterhouse operative will have put down many more horses than a newly qualified vet - you only have to look here for some horror stories of how things can go wrong. Have seen slaughtermen in action, I am happy that the horses do not suffer - what happens to them after death is irrelevant.

If a vet has experience to the do the job well, as many do, great, but don't assume that every vet does have the experience.


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## Holly Hocks (12 March 2011)

brigantia said:



*Facts relating to the equine slaughter debate*

Here is evidence of a deliberate and misleading media campaign connecting the US slaughter ban to an increase in neglect. This is not true. In fact, abuse and neglect cases actually went down after the US slaughter ban went into effect:

http://www.kaufmanzoning.net/DeletingtheFictionShortPaper.pdf

It is a fallacy to connect neglect, cruelty, and hoarding to a slaughter ban. If people do insist this is true, could they please cite impartial sources?

During the years when horse slaughter was still legal in the US, they were still exporting horses to Mexico and Canada. In addition, Canadian horses were being exported for slaughter in the United States. Thus, legal slaughter in the US did nothing to stop the transport of horses for slaughter to foreign countries.

Slaughter does not exist as a "service" for horse disposal. It is a profit-driven industry operating on the laws of supply and demand. Most horses who go to slaughter are healthy. The slaughter industry does not want ill or emaciated horses. This is why ex-race horses are slaughtered in large numbers--because they are available when they are still young and tender. Most old, neglected, or abandoned horses are not going to be desirable for meat. This is why slaughter isn't a quick fix solution to situations like the appalling neglect at Spindles Farm or most of the abandoned horses in Ireland. 

In the US, only about 1% of horses are exported for slaughter for human consumption--this is in accordance with the European demand for horse meat. Slaughter as a business is not going to increase and open abbatoirs in every corner of Britain just because people perceive an oversupply of unwanted horses. Demand drives the business, not the supply.

Mexico is not the only place in the world where slaughter has found to be inhumane. Two Canadian slaughter plants financed by Belgians to slaughter US and Canadian horses for the European meat market have now closed due to CFIA laws for multiple environmental and animal welfare violations.

In France, a major consumer of horse meat, consumption, and thus demand, for horse meat has declined. The slaughter industry won't vanish overnight, but meat consumption in general is in decline. 

Horses are generally not bred and raised as livestock meant to be eaten. They are raised as companion animals, work animals, and sport animals, rather than meatstock. Bute, ivermectin, fly spray, vaccinations, and anti-biotics will state that they are "not for use on animals intended for human consumption." All phenylbutazone products render an animal unfit for human consumption and are carcinogenic when consumed by humans. Given the choice, wouldn't you rather consume organic meat from animals specifically and humanely raised for meat?

Every horse that is rescued from slaughter and that is well-looked-after contributes to the economy, supporting feed merchants, livery yards, vets, trainers, saddleries, and farriers. 

Horse ownership is voluntary. With this choice comes responsibility.  

Not everyone who has ethical qualms about equine slaughter is a militant vegan bunny hugger. A critical mass of people succeeded in banning slaughter in the US. The same thing could happen in the European Union. As general meat consumption declines, we might be seeing a decline in the equine slaughter industry in any case.
		
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I can't believe this thread is still going and I have only read some of the responses.  The above is the most educated, succinct response yet and I totally agree with it. The OP is entitled to her opinion and doesn't deserve to be shot down in flames.  If you want to disagree, that's fine, but at least do so in an informed manner. However what would the forum be without differences of opinion!


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## brigantia (13 March 2011)

Jenny, Spudlet, and Holly, thank you so much for your civil and heartfelt comments. I'm so happy we can actually discuss this like adults. 

Spudlet, I certainly hope you are correct that horses in UK slaughter houses are humanely dispatched by experienced people. I actually know someone who works as a vet in a Belgian slaughter house where she says that sadly that is not always the case from her experience. 


This is "old news" from 2006, but it's an undercover investigation of the two British slaughter houses:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/oct/01/horseracing.sport


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## Holly Hocks (13 March 2011)

the Guardian article makes very interesting reading Brigantia.  I find it difficult to stomach that Valerie Turner is actually a judge at HOYS.  Also amazing is how the claimed number of slaughtering 2-3000 racehorses per year, decreases to around 700 when they are informed that the undercover "trainer" is actually a reporter.  
However for as long as horse slaughter is taking place, I still think it is far better that it is done in this country, without the long trips abroad.  And it has to be remembered that it isn't just racehorses which end up in the meat chain - family pets, SJs, wild ponies bred indiscriminately, and those which end up with incompetent, unknowledgeable owners also end up there.  And the argument that people can't afford to have their horses PTS at home also grates with me.  If you've been able to afford to keep the horse for years, keep it fed and taken pleasure from the animal, the least it deserves is to end it's days at home.  I know peoples circumstances change, but I believe that everyone should have a contingency plan if the worst happens.


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## paisley (13 March 2011)

The article from the Guardian is interesting reading, but I would also say that it is written in a slightly emotive manner.

Abattoirs are not nice places to visit, under any circumstances. However, I have been to Potters, and the horses are kept in an indoor barn. 

 I have not seen the kind of panic or fear suggested in the article and only occasionaly hear the whinnying you do hear when groups of horses are together eg such as you hear at competitions. 

They are also inspected and audited on a very regular basis. The people at Turners are very respectful of the job they do and as I understand it ILPH approved. 

Having seen horses euthanased by abattoir, vets, knackermen and the hunt, I would say yes, the abattoir is more dispassionate, but no less respectful of the animal they are dealing with.

And a final, but minor point. Equine research is frequently limited and poorly funded. Unlike human studies, it cannot use murine sources or euthanase horses purely for the sake of experiments due to ethical reasons. Abattoirs are a significant source of tissue as it is often vital that this is obtained as soon as possible after death. I appreciate that this is a whole other discussion , but no abattoirs would make a large part of equine research very difficult.


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## Holly Hocks (13 March 2011)

paisley said:



			The article from the Guardian is interesting reading, but I would also say that it is written in a slightly emotive manner.

Abattoirs are not nice places to visit, under any circumstances. However, I have been to Potters, and the horses are kept in an indoor barn. 

 I have not seen the kind of panic or fear suggested in the article and only occasionaly hear the whinnying you do hear when groups of horses are together eg such as you hear at competitions. 

They are also inspected and audited on a very regular basis. The people at Turners are very respectful of the job they do and as I understand it ILPH approved. 

Having seen horses euthanased by abattoir, vets, knackermen and the hunt, I would say yes, the abattoir is more dispassionate, but no less respectful of the animal they are dealing with.

And a final, but minor point. Equine research is frequently limited and poorly funded. Unlike human studies, it cannot use murine sources or euthanase horses purely for the sake of experiments due to ethical reasons. Abattoirs are a significant source of tissue as it is often vital that this is obtained as soon as possible after death. I appreciate that this is a whole other discussion , but no abattoirs would make a large part of equine research very difficult.
		
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That's a good point, Paisley, about the abbatoirs providing the bodies for equine research, I hadn't thought of that.  And it's good to hear from someone who has had first hand experience of vet/abbatoir/hunt etc.  I think what I found distasteful about the article in the Guardian is the manner in which the abbatoir owner spoke of the horses - "letting the child ride the pony before it was turned into meat" or whatever the phrase was, and using "names" such as Harvey Smith and McCain as if it was some sort of business promotion.  Although let's face it, the Press may have "manipulated" exactly what was said and it is hard from reading the written word to put the exact emotion to the words and the manner and context in which it was really said!


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## brigantia (13 March 2011)

And the argument that people can't afford to have their horses PTS at home also grates with me. If you've been able to afford to keep the horse for years, keep it fed and taken pleasure from the animal, the least it deserves is to end it's days at home.
		
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This is what grates on me, too. One would think that especially the multi-billion pound racing industry would be able to afford to euthanise their surplus horses instead of selling them to slaughter. 

Re the argument that it is hypocritical to treat horses different from any other livestock, I don't think I would object as much if the horses who went to slaughter were actually raised as livestock, ie not trained as riding animals but kept organically and allowed to graze in peace until their time came. 

But from what I understand, this is not profitable. More money is to be made by training horses and selling them on as riding horses, race horses, whatever. Then the broken down and discarded horses get sent off to slaughter. This is what I find so sad. If they've worked for us and if the riding and work they've done for us has actually ruined them, to just sell them to slaughter seems very disrespectful to the animal. But I realise not everyone shares my viewpoint.


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## Natch (13 March 2011)

brigantia said:



			This is what grates on me, too. One would think that especially the multi-billion pound racing industry would be able to afford to euthanise their surplus horses instead of selling them to slaughter. 

Re the argument that it is hypocritical to treat horses different from any other livestock, I don't think I would object as much if the horses who went to slaughter were actually raised as livestock, ie not trained as riding animals but kept organically and allowed to graze in peace until their time came. 

But from what I understand, this is not profitable. More money is to be made by training horses and selling them on as riding horses, race horses, whatever. Then the broken down and discarded horses get sent off to slaughter. This is what I find so sad. If they've worked for us and if the riding and work they've done for us has actually ruined them, to just sell them to slaughter seems very disrespectful to the animal. But I realise not everyone shares my viewpoint.
		
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See, I'm a confused soul who wouldn't send my own horse to slaughter, but that's mainly for my own benefit, as well as feeling that I want my horse's last moments to be at home if possible, around people they know, and not to transport them on an unnecessary journey, to a place which smells of death, especially as there is a good chance they won't be feeling 100%.

I find it distasteful that anyone would send their pet horse to slaughter for the same reasons, but I still don't have a problem with slaughter of "unviable" horses, especially if the alternative is likely to be prolonged suffering. 

Racing is a commercial venture: horses are treated as assets not pets, so its a no-brainer to the people who make the decisions to get a few bucks back on a horse, rather than pay out for it to be PTS. In a very crude way, at least the horse's carcass is going towards a purpose, and not being incinerated and adding to carbon emissions.


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