# can a farrier trim better than a barefoot trimmer ?



## nokia (8 January 2011)

This is a very intresting subject, and seems to be becoming a more spoken about at our yard than ever before.

I am hoping to get my horse trimmed soon by a barefoot trimmer, my farrier seems to take no time whatsoever to trim my horses feet and they look awfull.

So im going to use a barefoot trimmer , they are double the price of a normal trim but i want my horses feet to be right so im going to give it a go.

What are other peoples thoughts on here


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## Starzaan (8 January 2011)

In my opinion yes. 
If you have a good farrier, they will do a far better job than a barefoot trimmer. Anyone can rasp a horses feet, but not just anyone can do so in such a way as to correct any problems etc. It takes a lot of training to become a farrier, and, as far as I'm aware, none at all to become a barefoot trimmer.
Of course, if your farrier is crap, and you find a very good barefoot trimmer, then that is the exception, and we all know how I feel about my farrier! 
However, I don't just adore my farrier because he's bloody delicious and sexy, he's also incredibly good at what he does.


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## fizzer (8 January 2011)

I have shod horses/ponies and unshod and I use my farrier because he is 

a) fully qualified and has trained for a number of years and

b)  Because I trust him and know he does a good job

 In my opinion there are good  and bad farriers/barefoot trimmers its a case of what suits you and your horses.


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## Dancing Queen (8 January 2011)

imo - yes - its just another fad that has sprung up, this barefoot trimming.


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## fjordhorsefan (8 January 2011)

Depends on the farrier/trimmer - some are good, some are bad.  I have had good and bad of both.  My current farrier is ace - trims the feet really well, and shoes fronts for most of year as well.

It depends on the type of barefoot trimmer you have - some have had loads of training and have done exams etc, others just set up as trimmers with no experience at all.


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## Kub (8 January 2011)

I'd say yes as well. I've had this discussion with my farrier and balancing the foot is part of their training, regardless of whether the horse is barefoot or wearing shoes.


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## Jesstickle (8 January 2011)

*Fetches popcorn and settles back for an interesting night*

O and FWIW I would rather have a good farrier do it as they have years of training under their belt. And I do have my farrier do it too


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## LucyPriory (8 January 2011)

There are good and bad in every trade, so get references.

But for some proper horrors read my blog, especially today's entry

http://barefoothorseblog.blogspot.com/2011/01/update-on-fred-12-weeks-post-deshoeing.html

and 

http://barefoothorseblog.blogspot.com/2010/12/which-one-has-laminitis.html

Both of these were long term unsound when shod by an award winning farrier.

For these two it is completely black and white.  Lame when shod, sound when bare.


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## katherine1975 (8 January 2011)

I have one horse who is shod and one who is unshod. I would always use a qualified farrier for the reasons given on other posts.


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## DollyDolls (8 January 2011)

Sorry, what did I miss?  Is the "barefoot trimmer"  not a trained farrier??


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## LucyPriory (8 January 2011)

Many of the barefoot trimmers are farriers who have retrained.  The AANHCP even has a vet who has done the training. Italian and drop dead gorgeous by the way.


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## MerrySherryRider (8 January 2011)

I'd be looking for a new farrier if you're confident that he is doing a good job.
 For me, the training of farriers is far more extensive than BF trimmers so I would always use a farrier. I've had excellent advice on hoof care and any concerns about lower leg problems from mine. Even the grouchiest ones have been happy to discuss and educate because apparently I cared enough to ask.
Have heard about BF trimmers spending 3 hours on a 'consultation'. I'd rather get the job done, questions answered, pay half the price, still have time to exercise and forgo the lifestyle advice.


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## brucea (8 January 2011)

Pointless discussion Lucy - you won't change the way people  feel - they will be pro farrier and anti trimmer. And the horses will have ongoing problems throughout their lives. And navicular syndrome, contraction, underrun heels,  and concussion injuries will be just a fact of life for many of these animals.

Well I'll have a good trimer any day - the trimmer I know best is not only a trimmer, but was a master saddler, and has travelled worldwide learning about horse behaviour - she's good, very good indeed.

I'm not qualified, but I trim mine, and yes I can hear the righteous indignation boiling up from way up in the North here already . 

Anyone can come and inspect thier feet, if you're in my area please do, the vet sees them regularly and likes what I do, I even have recent xrays that show the balance is spot on. 

I do a few other horses too - tough ones with behaviour issues - and the owners are very happy with my work (they have very sound happy horses who don't get battered with tools any more) 

It's really not that difficult and there is no "mystery" to it, just understanding what the hoof is and what it does. 

P.S. I said unqualified, not untrained. There's a difference. I didn't just pick up a rasp one day.


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## quirky (8 January 2011)

Not only has a farrier trained for years, as opposed to weeks, they will shoe/trim your horse without preaching about what you should/shouldn't be feeding your horse.


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## LucyPriory (8 January 2011)

There are good and bad in every job.  So it is unwise to generalise or go on hearsay.  Get references.

I have lost count of the number of hooves I have deshod that have had nails through the foot rather than in the hoof wall.  Even one done by a remedial farrier attached to a vet college withe the benefit of x-rays, so no excuse. And the horse is a total dream to handle, so no excuse there either.

Unfortunately farrier training does not cover trimming particularly well, read the syllabus, exam papers and weep.  I did.


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## Jesstickle (8 January 2011)

LucyPriory said:



			Many of the barefoot trimmers are farriers who have retrained.  The AANHCP even has a vet who has done the training. Italian and drop dead gorgeous by the way.
		
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Where does the hotty vet cover?I could change my mind lol

Well probably not but I would certainly be interested to speak to a farrier who has changed tack for their perspective on it.


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## nokia (8 January 2011)

hang on ..i am talking about a fully qualified professional foot trimmer, 

A farrier is not neccessarily trained to trim a foot for a barefoot lifestyle (he is trained to trim a foot to take a shoe, very different). n.b. that is not to say he cannot do it, there are clearly similarities and many farriers would make great barefoot trimmers. 

Its also intresting to see so many top international dressage horses competiing these days being trimmed by barefoot trimmers


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## Horseyscot (8 January 2011)

Being an old fuddy duddy... ( well to be honest not that old but well confuzzeled by the whole 'barefoot' thing), . 

My two plods, being my cob, who in the summer is shod for me dotting about as and where i wish, and daughters little welshie who is unshod oops should I say barefoot , the cob gets the shoes removed for the winter as we don't do much then.

What I am trying to say is, what the heck is the real difference between being unshod, ie take the shoes off for a while and barefoot?? My farrier, who has trained for four years to be a farrier  in my opinion is fully qualified to remove my nags shoes and trim appropriately when thats all I want, and to tend the unshod (barefoot) welshie all year round. Surely four years of training must amount to something??? but seemingly, for a lot of people, the only person allowed near their unshod equines has to a 'qualified barefoot trimmer'??? As I said, I am confuzzuled, but say that, totally happy with my unqualified barefoot trimmer, fully (four years) qualified farrier


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## LucyPriory (8 January 2011)

Hotty Italian not surprisingly has stayed in Italy, but we might wheel him over to the UK sometime this year so you can drool then!   And don't tell him I told you because he is very young as well.  (or am I showing my age?!)

If you want to speak to one of the many farriers who have converted then contact Nick Hill of Clover Rose Equine.  http://www.cloverroseequine.co.uk/

Mind you he is very very busy and travels all over Europe spreading the 'plague' (literally because he gave me the worst bout of flu I've ever had just before christmas when I met with him and his wife post a trip to Spain)

Lovely lovely guy, very modest too.


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## quirky (8 January 2011)

nokia said:



			hang on ..i am talking about a fully qualified professional foot trimmer,
		
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On your other thread, there is somebody recommended that trained and qualified in 15 days.
I am perplexed how 15 days can compare to 4 years for a farrier. Surely a farrier doesn't learn about the hoof for 15 days and then the metal for the next 3 years and 49 weeks .


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## Horseyscot (8 January 2011)

quirky said:



			On your other thread, there is somebody recommended that trained and qualified in 15 days.
I am perplexed how 15 days can compare to 4 years for a farrier. Surely a farrier doesn't learn about the hoof for 15 days and then the metal for the next 3 years and 49 weeks .
		
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My point exactly.


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## Jesstickle (8 January 2011)

LucyPriory said:



			Hotty Italian not surprisingly has stayed in Italy, but we might wheel him over to the UK sometime this year so you can drool then!   And don't tell him I told you because he is very young as well.  (or am I showing my age?!)

If you want to speak to one of the many farriers who have converted then contact Nick Hill of Clover Rose Equine.  http://www.cloverroseequine.co.uk/

Mind you he is very very busy and travels all over Europe spreading the 'plague' (literally because he gave me the worst bout of flu I've ever had just before christmas when I met with him and his wife post a trip to Spain)

Lovely lovely guy, very modest too.
		
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Maybe I can relocate to Italy. Hmmm. Sun, sea and hotty Italian trimmer. Sounds good to me. I'm 26. Am I too old?

Thanks for the link


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## brucea (8 January 2011)

Actually, the interestign thing is that a good basic trim can be done by either a trimmer or a farrier. Different trims styles often, but if the hoof is straightforward then a straightforward trim do, and in a couple of weeks natural wear might make each indistinguishable from the other anyway.

Trimmers tend to look at more than just the hoof - they'll have spent a lot of time uderstanding diet, movement etc. and will try to understand the overall helath and chartacteristics of that horse.

So imagine for a momment that you had hooves - would you be happy with a chiropodist who just treated your hoof the same as every other hoof, didn't see how you moved, or explored whether aspects of your diet might be affecting the health of your feet, didn't try to work out why that flare was so big or you had trouble landing on your heels? Would you like it if the chiropodist didn't listen to you about not wanting to wear shoes and scooped your soles dand pared your frog, so that you were sore for a couple of weeks on stony ground? How would you feel?

I think the problem with this argument is that you're trying to compare apples and bananas.


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## nokia (8 January 2011)

i am just asking about peoples thoughts, its meant to be a light discussion topic for a saturday night.

How did you find that out about 15 days training that is scarey stuff if true


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## brucea (8 January 2011)

I am perplexed how 15 days can compare to 4 years for a farrier.
		
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Wow, I think you'll find the EP's and the UKNHCP folks train a lot more than that!


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## amandap (8 January 2011)

can a farrier trim better than a barefoot trimmer ?

It depends! lol If you want your horse to do your normal stuff then I'd definitely plump for a 'good' Trimmer. Referenced as Lucypriory suggests, there are bad Trimmers out there too. The trim however isn't the whole story or the most important aspect. You may have to make dietry changes and look at management to give your horse the best chance of growing good strong feet.

I posted two links on your other thread and I am certain not one Trimmer on them quallified after just 15 days!  Check out the initials after the names and you'll see some are actually Farriers as well. This fact alone tells me there is a difference in the trim and training, why would a busy Farrier bother to learn something he already knows?


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## outandabout (8 January 2011)

That's funny, in four years I would have thought my (ex)farrier could have learned not to cripple a horse.  Nails through laminae (not my horse, thankfully), long toes, contracted and underrun heels - that was just at my yard and the list goes on.  I'm not saying all farriers are like that, but they are out there and shoeing horses...  

It doesn't make a person with 14 days training any good, but 4 years clearly doesn't necessarily mean much either.


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## Jesstickle (8 January 2011)

brucea said:



			So imagine for a momment that you had hooves - would you be happy with a chiropodist who just treated your hoof the same as every other hoof, didn't see how you moved, or explored whether aspects of your diet might be affecting the health of your feet, didn't try to work out why that flare was so big or you had trouble landing on your heels? Would you like it if the chiropodist didn't listen to you about not wanting to wear shoes and scooped your soles dand pared your frog, so that you were sore for a couple of weeks on stony ground? How would you feel?

I think the problem with this argument is that you're trying to compare apples and bananas.
		
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So does my farrier win uber points for always watching my horses move, and recommending me a low sugar diet and very rarely taking off any sole at all then? I hope he does as he's lovely


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## fizzer (8 January 2011)

(Trimmers tend to look at more than just the hoof - they'll have spent a lot of time uderstanding diet, movement etc. and will try to understand the overall helath and chartacteristics of that horse.)




 This is exactly what my farrier does.


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## Keep Trying (8 January 2011)

quirky said:



			Not only has a farrier trained for years, as opposed to weeks, they will shoe/trim your horse without preaching about what you should/shouldn't be feeding your horse.
		
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I took my horse barefoot in September and researched the venture thoroughly beforehand. This research included attending a 3 day introductory course given by a qualified Equine Podiatrist. It was just to show you how a horse's foot works and develops. It continued give information about training to be a Podiatrist if you were interested. The training is very intense and indepth so much so that even the most industrious of student would be pushed to complete it within 18months. Granted, it is not the four years of training a farrier completes but trimmers are not 'invading' the foot with any foreign objects either.


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## quirky (8 January 2011)

I just think that barefoot trimmers are trying to over egg the pudding.

Years ago (20 odd), when my pony was kept on livery at a riding school, most of the riding school animals went without shoes. They were tended by the farrier as and when was necessary. They all got fed the same, as did the shod horses. We had no incidence of lami or other foot problems in the 11 years I was there.

As Rabbie said, a horse just didn't have shoes on, now, it seems to have to be termed as barefoot. 
Why is that? To justify a barefoot bods existence maybe ?


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## Chestnuttymare (8 January 2011)

nokia said:



			hang on ..i am talking about a fully qualified professional foot trimmer, 

A farrier is not neccessarily trained to trim a foot for a barefoot lifestyle (he is trained to trim a foot to take a shoe, very different). n.b. that is not to say he cannot do it, there are clearly similarities and many farriers would make great barefoot trimmers. 

Its also intresting to see so many top international dressage horses competiing these days being trimmed by barefoot trimmers
		
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well sounds to me that you have made up your mind and have formed an opinion so not sure why you have asked what people on here think. This has been done to death, all you have to do is do a search and you will get a number of threads on the subject.

I have asked my farrier about this

 ''A farrier is not neccessarily trained to trim a foot for a barefoot lifestyle (he is trained to trim a foot to take a shoe, very different''

and he refutes this, they are taught to trim a hoof in the correct way for the horse regardless whether it is shod or not.  They spend years training, not just the odd weekend. I am sure their training is a bit more comprehensive than an unqualified trimmer.

Brucea, is that the most relevant qualification your good trimmer has, that of a master saddler?
Well my farrier is properly qualified and insured, does a great job and has never struck my horse with a tool!! 
Farriers aren't barbarians who wreck horses hooves and batter them. Also, mine was trerribly lame last month, hopping in fact. Called farrier and he put her shoe back on and off she went happy as larry with totally sound. amazing!!


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## quirky (8 January 2011)

nokia said:



			How did you find that out about 15 days training that is scarey stuff if true
		
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brucea said:



			Wow, I think you'll find the EP's and the UKNHCP folks train a lot more than that!
		
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Taken from a 'Professional Barefoot Trimmers' website.

20th December 2009 - I graduated successfully from the AANHCP foundation course in Natural Hoof Care

5th December 2009 - In Texas attending the AANHCP Foundation course in Natural Hoof Care, being trained by founder of the AANHCP Jaime Jackson.


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## outandabout (8 January 2011)

chestnuttymare said:



			Farriers aren't barbarians who wreck horses hooves and batter them.
		
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Some of them are though! See my post above.  There are some super farriers out there, and there are some butchers.  There is NO excuse for putting a nail through not one, but two horses on the same yards laminae and laming them terribly.


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## Toast (8 January 2011)

The only barefoot trimmer ive ever seen uses a carpentry tool.

Farrier for me anyday.

x


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## paddy555 (8 January 2011)

Not only has a farrier trained for years, as opposed to weeks, they will shoe/trim your horse without preaching about what you should/shouldn't be feeding your horse.


absolutely. Then if the unshod horse is footy they will say it "can't do barefoot" and put shoes on it again. A barefoot trimmer will suggest why it is footy based on their experience of doing nothing but getting horses going barefoot. Years of training is fine if it has any relevance to what you are trying to do. If however that training is in making and fitting shoes and you don't want any then it is not really very much use.


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## fizzer (8 January 2011)

Whats pees me off is that there are some people that do not believe in having shoes at their animals cost.

There is a lady near me that on no terms will consider shoes , her horses are always lame, have abcesses and she trims them constantly.  She has been advised by a few professionals ie vet, chiropractor that maybe it does not suit her horses but because she would rather stick to HER beliefs, her poor horses are suffering.


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## Queenbee (8 January 2011)

In my opinion this is in a way a bit of a nonsensical question, you can have a bad farrier and an excellent BFT, or a god awful BFT and a fantastic Farrier, Starzaan is always going to side with the farrier since she has farrieritis but for my part I have an excellent farrier and would not trust anyone else.  In my opinion the years that go into training a farrier give them a far better knowlege and expertise base on average.  I could have 10 BFT's lined up offering their services to me (well my horses hooves) and I would choose to pay my farrier over them.  I would also never trust anyone who cannot get the terminology right, theoretically they should be referred to as bare hoof trimmers, horses do not have feet, feet have toes, horses do not have feet or toes they have hooves.  End point.


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## Chestnuttymare (8 January 2011)

lucypriory, i don't believe that Nick Hill was ever a farrier


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## Jesstickle (8 January 2011)

queenbee said:



			.  I would also never trust anyone who cannot get the terminology right, theoretically they should be referred to as bare hoof trimmers, horses do not have feet, feet have toes, horses do not have feet or toes they have hooves.  End point.
		
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LMFAO

I agree with the earlier part of your post. As have most people. You get good and bad. Get a recommendation for either and find one that suits you and you're probably laughing whichever you choose.


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## Dancing Queen (8 January 2011)

NO FOOT, NO HORSE

Only the best treatment available, i have possibly the best farrier who come out on xmas eve and NYE to treat navicular/ pedal bone rotation with success!


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## robysfarm (8 January 2011)

amandap said:



			can a farrier trim better than a barefoot trimmer ?

It depends! lol If you want your horse to do your normal stuff then I'd definitely plump for a 'good' Trimmer. Referenced as Lucypriory suggests, there are bad Trimmers out there too. The trim however isn't the whole story or the most important aspect. You may have to make dietry changes and look at management to give your horse the best chance of growing good strong feet.

I posted two links on your other thread and I am certain not one Trimmer on them quallified after just 15 days!  Check out the initials after the names and you'll see some are actually Farriers as well. This fact alone tells me there is a difference in the trim and training, why would a busy Farrier bother to learn something he already knows? 

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The answer to your questions about farriers in the first paragraph is yes he does.

I have a mare who had a severe bout of laminitis this Autumn and it is thanks to his hard work in conjunction with my vets that she is now able to go out.

We had a livery on here who suffered with EMS induced Laminitis and he never left the stable literally apart from a 20 minute walk every evening and he was trimmed by several different barefoot trimmers sorry but I cant help but wonder would he have been more comfortable going down the traditional route?  

We never disagreed with the owners approach as he was hers to do with as she felt fit and she followed their feeding etc to a T but since having one with similar problems (they think she may be insulin resistant) and seeing the difference my farrier has made to her its remarkable I will always stick to him (he has given me advice on feeding and is always happy to go through lameness issues etc not necessarily foot related).

The same mare who has had the lami has a fused fetlock and therefore wears a wedge on that foot again the only thing that has made her comfortable before this she was barefoot and just trimmed and the wedge was her last hope and overnight she was comfortable.

Its just my personal experience and I may have been lucky and always had good farriers all my 7 other horses are just trimmed no shoes one pony has a slight turn in her foot and the farrier spends plenty of time balancing both her back feet to help her compensate in the best possible way and all this for £15.00 a trim compared to £60.00 per horse for a barefoot trimmer.  Money  isnt everything but it certainly effects things.


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## intouch (8 January 2011)

jesstickle said:



			So does my farrier win uber points for always watching my horses move, and recommending me a low sugar diet and very rarely taking off any sole at all then? I hope he does as he's lovely 

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Yep!

But the problem with (some) farriers can be,as I see it, once they've qualified, that's it, they can do their own thing.  To stay qualified, trimmers belonging to the main associations have to do regular CPD days to keep up to date.  

Did you know that when they were drafting the National Occupational Standards, the farriers had to raise the bar to come up to the standards required by the trimmers in at least one area?

Just make sure your trimmer is qualified with one of the recognised Associations and you have quality hoof care.


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## LucyPriory (8 January 2011)

I'd maybe never have gone barefoot if I hadn't moved from Hampshire to Kent.

The Kent farrier - who trains all the local apprentices - ruined my competition horse and nearly did for my youngster too.  Wanted to put shoes and pads on a less than 2yr old.

So an alternative (and controversial farrier) helped me keep the youngster barefoot.  Until she was in a car accident she had been self trimming because of the hours of road work we did. Long reining until 5, ridden and/or long reining after that.

It was only post the car accident that I realised that the (newish) farrier had barely if ever trimmed her.  And it was some time until I realised he couldn't trim for toffee, despite marketing himself as a barefoot specialist.

To cut a very long story short, spanning over two decades - I found I could not find a farrier who could do the job and keep my horse sound.  But a barefoot trimmer could.


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## Jesstickle (8 January 2011)

intouch said:



			But the problem with (some) farriers can be,as I see it, once they've qualified, that's it, they can do their own thing.
		
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Ah well, there you go. I don't let penis heads near my horses because I can not, on a personal level, tolerate them.

I like people who constantly want to improve their knowledge base because, I hope, that's how I am and therefore I wouldn't ever choose to let anyone (farrier, trimmer vet) who thought they knew everything near any animal of mine. 

I think it pays to be open minded in life.


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## GLEEK (8 January 2011)

As i am sure many of you have heard of the lack of farriers in Aberdeenshire. I cant find a farrier that will turn up, or be on time, or turn up on the right day or even the right month, answer their phone, take a booking!!! So this year i am going to have to turn to barefoot trimmer. 

I cant afford the barefoot trimmers prices (from what i have been told of them) so i have to put one of mine out to share! 

Is it true that trimmers come out every 4 weeks? Why?


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## Dolcé (8 January 2011)

intouch said:



			Yep!

But the problem with (some) farriers can be,as I see it, once they've qualified, that's it, they can do their own thing.  To stay qualified, trimmers belonging to the main associations have to do regular CPD days to keep up to date.  

Did you know that when they were drafting the National Occupational Standards, the farriers had to raise the bar to come up to the standards required by the trimmers in at least one area?

Just make sure your trimmer is qualified with one of the recognised Associations and you have quality hoof care.
		
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As I understand it farriers have to get a fixed amount of cpd points each year in order to stay on the register.


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## Chestnuttymare (8 January 2011)

what is the difference between an equine podiatrist and a barefoot trimmer. 
why aren't they called barehoof trimmers?


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## nokia (8 January 2011)

chestnut mare

How rude are you...bad bad attitude


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## Queenbee (8 January 2011)

nokia said:



			hang on ..i am talking about a fully qualified professional foot trimmer,
		
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Oh, sorry my mistake, did he get this qualification at christmas, along with a box of crackers and a funny pointy hat during christmas lunch then?



brucea said:



			Pointless discussion Lucy - you won't change the way people  feel - they will be pro farrier and anti trimmer. And the horses will have ongoing problems throughout their lives. And navicular syndrome, contraction, underrun heels,  and concussion injuries will be just a fact of life for many of these animals.

Well I'll have a good trimer any day - the trimmer I know best is not only a trimmer, but was a master saddler, and has travelled worldwide learning about horse behaviour - she's good, very good indeed.

QUOTE] 

Good for you, well just call me and evil cow then... cause if I deem it necessary I will wreck my girls hooves with shoes and ruin her life, because I don't care about her welfare like you do.



brucea said:



			Actually, the interestign thing is that a good basic trim can be done by either a trimmer or a farrier. Different trims styles often, but if the hoof is straightforward then a straightforward trim do, and in a couple of weeks natural wear might make each indistinguishable from the other anyway.

Trimmers tend to look at more than just the hoof - they'll have spent a lot of time uderstanding diet, movement etc. and will try to understand the overall helath and chartacteristics of that horse.

So imagine for a momment that you had hooves - would you be happy with a chiropodist who just treated your hoof the same as every other hoof, didn't see how you moved, or explored whether aspects of your diet might be affecting the health of your feet, didn't try to work out why that flare was so big or you had trouble landing on your heels? Would you like it if the chiropodist didn't listen to you about not wanting to wear shoes and scooped your soles dand pared your frog, so that you were sore for a couple of weeks on stony ground? How would you feel?

I think the problem with this argument is that you're trying to compare apples and bananas.
		
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You obviously haven't met my farrier have you, if you were a horse you would look like this:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_v2tO9US4pME/SK6IKH8UUQI/AAAAAAAADZI/zKd4nRZzK9Y/s400/blinkers.JPG

God it isn't a bloody war between bare'hooved' and shod it is what works for the horse!



paddy555 said:



			Not only has a farrier trained for years, as opposed to weeks, they will shoe/trim your horse without preaching about what you should/shouldn't be feeding your horse.


absolutely. Then if the unshod horse is footy they will say it "can't do barefoot" and put shoes on it again. A barefoot trimmer will suggest why it is footy based on their experience of doing nothing but getting horses going barefoot. QUOTE]

Again, I must have a very radical and forward thinking farrier because mine does this, or could it be that he is, what's the word.....






TRAINED?











Blood begining to boil, going to put the kettle on!
		
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## Chestnuttymare (8 January 2011)

nokia said:



			chestnut mare

How rude are you...bad bad attitude
		
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Exactly what did i say that you consider rude or that made you form the opinion that I have a bad bad attitude?


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## bluehorse (8 January 2011)

To put a different slant on the debate, I think most farriers are missing a trick here.  There is no doubt that more and more people are choosing to have their horses unshod/barefoot/whatever.  I think that this trend will just continue - how many people had even heard of a barefoot trimmer 10 years ago?  Give it another 10 years and it will be even more common.  

I think it's more about attitude than capability (assuming you're comparing like for like - a good farrier against a good trimmer).  I heard somewhere (can't remember where), that a farrier looks for what he can take off, whereas a trimmer looks for what he can leave on.  

There is much to be said in favour of both schools of thought (I have experience of both)and farriers must surely be in a great position to take advantage of this, and maximise their potentially declining client base by looking at it with a fresh pair of eyes? Let's face it there is something slightly wrong about nailing metal onto a shock absorbing structure...

Science and knowledge moves on - we know a lot more about the hoof than we did when we started nailing shoes on however many years ago, so in my view farriers could make the most of their excellent traditional training by taking a look at what the newbies are doing.

My perfect hoof specialist would be a farrier trained barefoot trimmer.

Or a barefoot trimmer trained farrier


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## Tinypony (8 January 2011)

LucyPriory said:



			I'd maybe never have gone barefoot if I hadn't moved from Hampshire to Kent.

The Kent farrier - who trains all the local apprentices - ruined my competition horse and nearly did for my youngster too.  Wanted to put shoes and pads on a less than 2yr old.

So an alternative (and controversial farrier) helped me keep the youngster barefoot.  Until she was in a car accident she had been self trimming because of the hours of road work we did. Long reining until 5, ridden and/or long reining after that.

It was only post the car accident that I realised that the (newish) farrier had barely if ever trimmed her.  And it was some time until I realised he couldn't trim for toffee, despite marketing himself as a barefoot specialist.

To cut a very long story short, spanning over two decades - I found I could not find a farrier who could do the job and keep my horse sound.  But a barefoot trimmer could.
		
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Maybe it's a Kent thing Lucy, that was my experience as well. I know there are farriers around who do a great trim for a barefoot working horse, problem is, I couldn't find one when the one I used moved away.


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## Starzaan (8 January 2011)

queenbee said:



			Starzaan is always going to side with the farrier since she has farrieritis.
		
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OI YOU!

I DO have farrieritis, but I would also trust the fit farrier's housemate with my horses feet, as he trained with FF and I honestly can't tell the difference between a horse shod by him and a horse shod by FF. 

My darling farrier talks to me about feed, movement, what the horse is doing etc. and often tells me to shut up when I suggest something ridiculous. He's actively discouraged me from putting shoes on my 4yr old until such time when/if he needs them, and yet he is still working on sorting out this horse's dishing. 

I had a "remedial" farrier with no formal training come and look at a youngster with horrendous feet and a very very twisted foreleg where I last worked. After six months of over £100 spent on a trim every four weeks, there was no improvement, and I decided to ignore my boss and get FF to look at it. The youngster who hadn't been sound in the field from the day I started my job, was sound and nearly straight by the time I left, thanks to FF. 

I have no issue with "barefoot" horses - my spotty creature was barefoot when I got him, and evented successfully barefoot, was never footy and never slipped on soft ground. The farrier told me not to put shoes on him unless he needed them, so I didn't!

I think it depends entirely on the person doing the job - there are good and bad in both professions, but now that I've found my superstar farrier and his superstar farrier housemate, I'm sticking with farriers


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## Queenbee (8 January 2011)

bluehorse said:



			My perfect hoof specialist would be a farrier trained barefoot trimmer.

Or a barefoot trimmer trained farrier 

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Bluehorse, you know sitting on the fence gives you splinters in the @r$e, should we call you italy


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## LucyPriory (8 January 2011)

chestnuttymare said:



			lucypriory, i don't believe that Nick Hill was ever a farrier
		
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Well only farriers are allowed to shoe horses and he used to shoe horses - so I guess he must have been a farrier

or an outer space alien, but I doubt that bit


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## Chestnuttymare (8 January 2011)

He doesn't seem to list it in his qualifications then. My apologies if i was wrong. Not sure why it is important whether he is an alien or not.


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## Dolcé (8 January 2011)

chestnuttymare said:



			He doesn't seem to list it in his qualifications then. My apologies if i was wrong. Not sure why it is important whether he is an alien or not.
		
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mmm.......I thought it was strange he hadn't mentioned it, perhaps he is ashamed of his farriery past, although he has been very busy so not sure where he would have fitted the training in.


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## reindeerlover (8 January 2011)

LucyPriory said:



			Well only farriers are allowed to shoe horses and he used to shoe horses - so I guess he must have been a farrier

or an outer space alien, but I doubt that bit
		
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I would pay good money to watch a space alien shoe my horse. Seriously.

Can I suggest that the reason that Farriers are "training" to be "barefoot trimmers" is because they have seen a market and don't mind taking 15 days out of their schedule to get on the register rather than because they have seen the light?

Just sayin...


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## Queenbee (8 January 2011)

Starzaan said:



			OI YOU!
		
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Starzaan said:



			My darling farrier talks to me about feed, movement, what the horse is doing etc. and often tells me to shut up when I suggest something ridiculous. He's actively discouraged me from putting shoes on my 4yr old until such time when/if he needs them,
		
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mines like that , come to think of it, we must have the same farrier, perhaps mine commutes up country, your farrier likes you, mine was kicked in the head by a horse... they must be the same farrier  




Starzaan said:



			I had a "remedial" farrier with no formal training come and look at a youngster with horrendous feet and a very very twisted foreleg where I last worked. After six months of over £100 spent on a trim every four weeks, there was no improvement, and I decided to ignore my boss and get FF to look at it. The youngster who hadn't been sound in the field from the day I started my job, was sound and nearly straight by the time I left, thanks to FF.
		
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That was actually because the very reasonably priced Remedial Farrier, snuck into the stable at night and continued the horses treatment, god anyone would think your FF had qualifications, expericence and knowledge or something and not just a fit bod and winning smile  



Starzaan said:



			I have no issue with "barefoot" horses I think it depends entirely on the person doing the job QUOTE] snap/ ditto and all that 

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## Starzaan (8 January 2011)

queenbee said:



   



mines like that , come to think of it, we must have the same farrier, perhaps mine commutes up country, your farrier likes you, mine was kicked in the head by a horse... they must be the same farrier  





That was actually because the very reasonably priced Remedial Farrier, snuck into the stable at night and continued the horses treatment, god anyone would think your FF had qualifications, expericence and knowledge or something and not just a fit bod and winning smile  



Starzaan said:



			I have no issue with "barefoot" horses I think it depends entirely on the person doing the job QUOTE] snap/ ditto and all that 

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YOU cretin.
Careful, or I'll send the mechanic your way... he's not dead!
		
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## china (8 January 2011)

iv not read this whole thread but having just had both my horses shoes taken off, one due to navicular and the other as she isnt in work. i thought about getting a barefoot trimmer but my farrier is one of the best in my area and fully supports my decision and is doing a great job. i dont know a barefoot trimmer in my area and i am happy with the work mine is doing.

just on a separate thought. just looking at your blogs lucy priory, i have looked at a few of them with interest. but the one thing that pops into my head on a few of the photos is why on earth would you let your horses feet get in that state in the first place?? its nice to see they come right but why let it get that bad? surley as an owner you would say something. i know i would.


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## Queenbee (8 January 2011)

Starzaan said:





queenbee said:



   



mines like that , come to think of it, we must have the same farrier, perhaps mine commutes up country, your farrier likes you, mine was kicked in the head by a horse... they must be the same farrier  





That was actually because the very reasonably priced Remedial Farrier, snuck into the stable at night and continued the horses treatment, god anyone would think your FF had qualifications, expericence and knowledge or something and not just a fit bod and winning smile  




YOU cretin.
Careful, or I'll send the mechanic your way... he's not dead!
		
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oh darlin, fighting talk!  I am not fwigtened of your mechanic, I have a freakin farmer that I can send to you who thinks its just fine to smash cars houses and people in, you can have him.... we can play swapises since we obviously already share a farrier 


Be careful, or else I may push the button on you and tell TFC you called me a cretin,  I do believe that to insult a forum user is against the rules and results in an infarction (or so they told me )...





...  beeeeeatch!
		
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## LucyPriory (8 January 2011)

china said:



			... just looking at your blogs lucy priory, i have looked at a few of them with interest. but the one thing that pops into my head on a few of the photos is why on earth would you let your horses feet get in that state in the first place?? its nice to see they come right but why let it get that bad? surley as an owner you would say something. i know i would.
		
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In the cases on the blog the owners have said something.  'Fred's' owner was told that the feet couldn't be shortened.

The hooning lami owner was told to PTS as there was nothing to be done.

Mostly the people I work with have come to their decision over a long period of time, it is not a step taken lightly.  The ones who are less considered in their approach don't last long.

Also one of the owners commented that the photos show the feet in a new light, different to how they perceive them when still attached to the horse.......  Which is true enough, the camera gets down and dirty in a way many people don't.  I bought a shock and water proof one for obvious reasons   Not sure it's poo proof though.

Some owners are also a bit intimidated by their farriers/vets; and there can be no criticism in that; some farriers/vets are intimidating (heck I am sure some people find me intimidating), but if you have been told they are the best and know no different?  It is only when the horse is consistently lame despite years of remedial farriery and huge vets bills that eyes start to open a bit and questions then get asked.


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## LucyPriory (8 January 2011)

chestnuttymare said:



			He doesn't seem to list it in his qualifications then. My apologies if i was wrong. Not sure why it is important whether he is an alien or not.
		
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Re the alien - my vet is convinced I am a witch because 'difficult' horses keep coming right and he doesn't really understand how.  Therefore it must be magic? 

Well I am reasonably assured Nick isn't magical either and he has a very long track record of getting horses right.  If not witch maybe an alien?

NOTE
Late at night, after no sleep I stuff sugar and get very very silly.  Just like a horse that has had too many lickits!   I have no need for alcohol or drugs - sugar is enough 

But yes Nick was a farrier (one of those fancy ones too) - I guess he doesn't list it because for him maybe it isn't relevant.  

I've trained with a few (ex) farriers and that seems to be their view.  I am not going to go into third party reporting though and suggest why that may be - you will have to ask them.


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## Vixen Van Debz (9 January 2011)

Starzaan said:



			I think it depends entirely on the person doing the job - there are good and bad in both professions, but now that I've found my superstar farrier and his superstar farrier housemate, I'm sticking with farriers 

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But my dear, wouldn't you rather be sticking _to _ the FF?! lol.


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## AndySpooner (9 January 2011)

Obviously there are good and bad farriers and trimmers.

Going barefoot is the way forward and having been that way for some years now see no justification at all for shoeing.

Different folk telling you how good or bad their own farrier/trimmer is won't really help, you need someone local who you are happy does a good job.


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## siennamum (9 January 2011)

china said:



			iv not read this whole thread but having just had both my horses shoes taken off, one due to navicular and the other as she isnt in work. i thought about getting a barefoot trimmer but my farrier is one of the best in my area and fully supports my decision and is doing a great job. i dont know a barefoot trimmer in my area and i am happy with the work mine is doing.

just on a separate thought. just looking at your blogs lucy priory, i have looked at a few of them with interest. but the one thing that pops into my head on a few of the photos is why on earth would you let your horses feet get in that state in the first place?? its nice to see they come right but why let it get that bad? surley as an owner you would say something. i know i would.
		
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I agree. I think those pictures actually highlight how ignorant and incapable some owners are. Why would you let your horses feet get into such a terrible state? Why would you then blame the farrier, Wouldn't you change farrier? I suppose because you don't have much of a clue (which is no excuse).

I think as a previous poster said, there is an increasing amount of interest amongst the mainstream horse owning population regarding going barefoot when possible. I know I love the idea more farriers should come onside. 
What is offputting though are the proponents of the idea who are patronising, rude and seem rather liberal with the facts.


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## Wagtail (9 January 2011)

brucea said:



			Pointless discussion Lucy - you won't change the way people  feel - they will be pro farrier and anti trimmer. And the horses will have ongoing problems throughout their lives. And navicular syndrome, contraction, underrun heels,  and concussion injuries will be just a fact of life for many of these animals.

Well I'll have a good trimer any day - the trimmer I know best is not only a trimmer, but was a master saddler, and has travelled worldwide learning about horse behaviour - she's good, very good indeed.

I'm not qualified, but I trim mine, and yes I can hear the righteous indignation boiling up from way up in the North here already . 

Anyone can come and inspect thier feet, if you're in my area please do, the vet sees them regularly and likes what I do, I even have recent xrays that show the balance is spot on. 

I do a few other horses too - tough ones with behaviour issues - and the owners are very happy with my work (they have very sound happy horses who don't get battered with tools any more) 

It's really not that difficult and there is no "mystery" to it, just understanding what the hoof is and what it does. 

P.S. I said unqualified, not untrained. There's a difference. I didn't just pick up a rasp one day.
		
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My sister is a barefoot trimmer and had to study for several years and pass exams and practicals to qualify. She lives 4 hours away from me though so she doesn't do my horses. My farrier is brilliant and I use him for both my shod horses and my barefoot horses. However, he is the only farrier barr one that I would use for barefoot. I find many farriers are disinterested in correcting underrun heels etc. They continue to put on shoes that are far too small and give little support, and their trimming is completely thoughtless.

So I think it depends on the farrier concerned.


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## MerrySherryRider (9 January 2011)

intouch said:



			Yep!

But the problem with (some) farriers can be,as I see it, once they've qualified, that's it, they can do their own thing.  To stay qualified, trimmers belonging to the main associations have to do regular CPD days to keep up to date.  

Did you know that when they were drafting the National Occupational Standards, the farriers had to raise the bar to come up to the standards required by the trimmers in at least one area?

Just make sure your trimmer is qualified with one of the recognised Associations and you have quality hoof care.
		
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 Farriers are also required to do Continuing Professional Development and speaking to a couple of farriers in my area I found they were very much in favour of this. Horseowners have a responsibility to use the best professionals they can and if you use a poor farrier or trimmer to look after your horses feet, then the onus is on you, as an owner.
 Farriers were also instrumental in the consultation process for the guidelines of the NOS which seeks to raise standards in the industry, but the development of NOS are not exclusive to shoeing/trimming. New standards are being put in place for many equine workers, including the BFT's. Lantra aim is precisely to raise and regulate standards across the board.

Dear friend is just about to qualify as a BFT, decided to become one few months ago. Looked up some courses, paid his dosh and, - 8 more trims and he's done. Nice.


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## ladyearl (9 January 2011)

Trimmers tend to look at more than just the hoof - they'll have spent a lot of time uderstanding diet, movement etc. and will try to understand the overall helath and chartacteristics of that horse.

My farrier does this, he's very good. IMO you can't beat a good farrier for looking after your horses hooves - shod or not. Obv a rubbish farrier can wreck them but so could a barefoot( foot???!!!) trimmer


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## abb123 (9 January 2011)

What I don't like about BFT movement is that nothing else is as good and we are all cruel for not doing as they do attitude.

For what it's worth, I have an arab - unshod for years (at my farriers suggestion) and has been absolutely fine. I also have a warmblood who had the most horrendous feet when I first got her - it has taken several years and a lot of hard work but she now has normal looking hooves and is unshod behind. My farrier gave me loads of feed and supplement advice for her. She had colic sugery over the summer and he even suggested that since she was on box rest anyway she should have a break from shoes to help her feet.

A couple of people on the yard have a BFT, he seems like a nice conscientious guy. One horse has similar hooves to the arab and is fine. The other has no end of problems; he struggles to walk on anything slightly stony and has constant bruising. 

Like anything, some good farriers, some not so good. Some good BFT, some not so good. Some horses can cope unshod - some not. Ultimately, you as the owner are responsible for making sure that whoever does your horses hooves does a good job.


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## riding_high (9 January 2011)

i had a farrier trim my horses' hooves for a while but he basically cocked it up. he never listened when i said i wanted to keep him barefoot and when it came to my native youngsters he kept trying to trim them for shoeing, again i didn't want them to have shoes on, they've got great little feet.
as it has turned out because of his shoeing (initially) and now the trimming he has knackered my horses' feet up, i went with a barefoot trimmer and i can see the difference in the way my horse moves and my vet is very happy with the improvement in his feet.

so for me i'm sticking with my trimmer unless i move area and a great farrier is recommended!


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## Kao (9 January 2011)

I don't think it matters.
I've always had a farrier trim my horse's feet and he's always been sound. As long as he sound and happy, I couldn't really give a rats backside who trims my horse's feet.


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## Laafet (9 January 2011)

Hmm well I would not use a barefoot trimmer, I was lucky enough to have Simon Curtis as an ear to bend when Tarquin was being broken in, he (despite being a world renowned farrier and so very expensive for shoes) said that I should try to keep T unshod if possible and advised my own farrier on this. Sadly he just couldn't tolerate the sand with flints in that we had were I was, so I went to just being shod in front. All my farriers have asked for the horses to be walked up for them and my current farrier has seen T under saddle (his wife rode T for a bit) so he understands how his foot balance relates to the rest of him. He is shod allround here now, I will never ever leave his front shoes off again. I did this a few years ago when I was injured, Tarquin upon returning to work went very lame. The vets pointed out that him being unshod and slightly over weight with a dishing action on his right leg were the likely cause for him doing his suspensory. He is incredible difficult to keep weight off and so needs a lot of work, thus more pressure on his legs, the vets said I should never take his front shoes off. I am inclined to go with them and will not be trying to go barefoot again. ( and that was Rossdales BTW so a very good equine practice)


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## RolyPolyPony (9 January 2011)

After the state of a pony's feet i saw the other day i would never let a farrier near any horse of mine. The farrier trimmed said pony's feet on tues. Barefoot trimmer came to do liveries on fri and took a look at pony. It's hooves were long, very high healed and the smell coming from them. It's feet literally smelt like they were rotting! Trimmer sorted out ponies feet a treat. She has helped me with a lot to do with my horses feet. I personally don't think you can beat a decent barefoot trimmer.


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## dressagecrazy (9 January 2011)

These threads are always the same & always show closed mindeness to Farriers or BFT.

I personally don't care who's better on paper I go with who does the best job for my horses. The Farrier failed & I moved to a BFT 2 months ago, the change in my horses hooves is fantastic & all of the hooves are looking brilliant. Why couldn't my farrier do that? In all honesty I cannot say as he is the one who's trained for years. Yet he's also the one who trimmed one of my horses back so far he was hopping lame for 2 weeks.

As for BFT people being against Farriers I can say my BFT doesn't mind she is very much like myself & is open to what the horse needs not what drives ego's.

I'm not against Farriers at all but I can say the BFT is doing a much much better job for my horses.


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## brucea (9 January 2011)

As i am sure many of you have heard of the lack of farriers in Aberdeenshire. I cant find a farrier that will turn up, or be on time, or turn up on the right day or even the right month, answer their phone, take a booking!!! So this year i am going to have to turn to barefoot trimmer. 

I cant afford the barefoot trimmers prices (from what i have been told of them) so i have to put one of mine out to share! 

Is it true that trimmers come out every 4 weeks? Why?
		
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Nope, only on certain horses with a real need for it, should trimming be every 4 weeks. A couple of mine havd only been trimmed twice in the last 6 months - they are largely self maintining - the grow what they wear and wear what they grow.

G - if you are in my area, you're more than welcome to come along and meet my barefoot boys and see how they are getting on.

Also - Anni is £35 for a trim, and in my opinion very much worth it. She's the one I'd recommend. Much knowledge and real track record of turning the tough ones around.


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## china (9 January 2011)

LucyPriory said:



			In the cases on the blog the owners have said something.  'Fred's' owner was told that the feet couldn't be shortened.

The hooning lami owner was told to PTS as there was nothing to be done.

Mostly the people I work with have come to their decision over a long period of time, it is not a step taken lightly.  The ones who are less considered in their approach don't last long.

Also one of the owners commented that the photos show the feet in a new light, different to how they perceive them when still attached to the horse.......  Which is true enough, the camera gets down and dirty in a way many people don't.  I bought a shock and water proof one for obvious reasons   Not sure it's poo proof though.

Some owners are also a bit intimidated by their farriers/vets; and there can be no criticism in that; some farriers/vets are intimidating (heck I am sure some people find me intimidating), but if you have been told they are the best and know no different?  It is only when the horse is consistently lame despite years of remedial farriery and huge vets bills that eyes start to open a bit and questions then get asked.
		
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thanks for that


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## brucea (9 January 2011)

Mostly the people I work with have come to their decision over a long period of time, it is not a step taken lightly. The ones who are less considered in their approach don't last long.
		
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That's right on the nail Lucy

The chances of success are really determined by the owners.


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## thatsmygirl (9 January 2011)

chestnuttymare said:



			well sounds to me that you have made up your mind and have formed an opinion so not sure why you have asked what people on here think. This has been done to death, all you have to do is do a search and you will get a number of threads on the subject.

I have asked my farrier about this

 ''A farrier is not neccessarily trained to trim a foot for a barefoot lifestyle (he is trained to trim a foot to take a shoe, very different''

and he refutes this, they are taught to trim a hoof in the correct way for the horse regardless whether it is shod or not.  They spend years training, not just the odd weekend. I am sure their training is a bit more comprehensive than an unqualified trimmer.


Brucea, is that the most relevant qualification your good trimmer has, that of a master saddler?
Well my farrier is properly qualified and insured, does a great job and has never struck my horse with a tool!! 
Farriers aren't barbarians who wreck horses hooves and batter them. Also, mine was trerribly lame last month, hopping in fact. Called farrier and he put her shoe back on and off she went happy as larry with totally sound. amazing!!
		
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Agree with this. I'm going to speak my mind now on this subject which will rattle a few cages I'm sure. 
Yes some horses can go bare foot and some cant. Iv got a very good friend who works in a equine vet and they are seeing more and more horses with lameness problems and very very badly bruised soles through trying to go bare foot and believing what these under trained so called trimmers are telling them. People are getting brain washed by this fad and people are wreaking their horses feet. 3 local horses under the vets care are now having corrective shoeing by the farrier to try and sort out the trimmers bad work and it wasn't the same trimmer either. I tried my friends horse as he was for sale and quite fancied him and he's bare footed, he moved so wrong I got off him but my friend was use to his way off going, anyway long story short here, he failed vetting lame on all four legs and x rays showed extensive bruising in his soles. It's also in talks to get trimmers licenced with the farrier board and to under go a full training course not just what they do so hopefully this will get underway and knock a few off them in the head but it's not common knowledge yet so can't say no more on that. 
Yes there are bad farriers there always will be but people need to open their eyes to the damage they can do to their horses feet if they are shod or barefoot, if I can get a horse to stay barefoot I won't put shoes on but half the time they need them after wearing out a full set off shoes in 3 weeks that's a lot off hoof lost if he didn't have his shoes. 
I honestly think as time goes on more people will stick with the well trained farriers just pick a good one.


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## thatsmygirl (9 January 2011)

Oh I also would like to add that if your horse is happy bare foot why do you use hoof boots? Proves that the horse ain't copeing to me. If the horse can go all day on any ground and is fine than yep he don't need shoes but if you need to use boots to help him cope than he shouldn't be bare foot


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## amandap (9 January 2011)

brucea said:



			That's right on the nail Lucy

The chances of success are really determined by the owners.
		
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I agree and am a prime example myself. I keep on _hoping_ that my pony prone to laminitis will be able to eat grass, haylage or whatever I feel like giving her. After her latest bout caused by me trying to introduce haylage I now am 100% certain that she knows better than me and I really _must_ listen to her through her symptoms (or lack of them rather lol) despite what any vet, farrier,trimmer, experienced horseperson is telling me to do.

This to me is where the real difference comes in, it's a change of thinking more than anything. It's so inconvenient that I have to soak my ponys hay etc. so in my head I was still trying to find another way round it. Loads of horses eat haylage etc. so why can't she? I could have her shod and feed her anything but what would I be achieveing here in the long term? Eventually she would be sore in shoes, shoes and pads, reverse shoes, heartbar shoes or the next device someone can come up with to 'treat' her problem. The thing is, she isn't sore because she isn't wearing shoes, she is sore at times because I am not giving or providing her with what her body needs. My job is to find out where I'm letting her down not cover it up!

If she were still running up on the moor I wonder if she would be getting bouts of laminitis? 
No way am I saying all horses should be out there but I personally have learned that much of the life we provide for domestic horses is alien to what they have evolved to cope with that their systems get overloaded so any move I can make to provide a more natural lifestyle I will take.
Hooves are a great mirror of whole horse health imo.

This is my current thinking after about 10 years of believing horses shouldn't need to wear shoes.


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## thatsmygirl (9 January 2011)

LucyPriory said:



			There are good and bad in every trade, so get references.

But for some proper horrors read my blog, especially today's entry

http://barefoothorseblog.blogspot.com/2011/01/update-on-fred-12-weeks-

post-deshoeing.html

and 

http://barefoothorseblog.blogspot.com/2010/12/which-one-has-laminitis.html

Both of these were long term unsound when shod by an award winning farrier.


For these two it is completely black and white.  Lame when shod, sound when bare.
		
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I'm sorry but I hope that cob HAD laminitis not HAS laminitis else he should not be out running about and wouldn't be able to. Any horse with laminitis will do box rest if he has it bad enough and you will not keep the horse shod within that time. Many Many owners could take a pic off their horse running about like that after a bout off laminitis. Pointless pic to me and proves nothing. As for the other horse if you are perpaired to let your horses feet get like that than you should not own horses!!!! Simple.


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## M_G (9 January 2011)

nokia said:



			This is a very intresting subject, and seems to be becoming a more spoken about at our yard than ever before.

I am hoping to get my horse trimmed soon by a barefoot trimmer, my farrier seems to take no time whatsoever to trim my horses feet and they look awfull.

So im going to use a barefoot trimmer , they are double the price of a normal trim but i want my horses feet to be right so im going to give it a go.

What are other peoples thoughts on here
		
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I could call myself a barefoot trimmer and charge you through the nose (I have never trimmed a horse in my life) however a farrier goes through years of training.. I would find a good farrier and get a trim there


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## boss93 (9 January 2011)

I have somehow managed to miss this new craze. 

Would somebody be able to tell be the difference between a horse being unshod and a horse being 'barefoot' please? I have read through the thread but can't seem to find an answer. Thanks.


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## thatsmygirl (9 January 2011)

amandap said:



			I agree and am a prime example myself. I keep on _hoping_ that my pony prone to laminitis will be able to eat grass, haylage or whatever I feel like giving her. After her latest bout caused by me trying to introduce haylage I now am 100% certain that she knows better than me and I really _must_ listen to her through her symptoms (or lack of them rather lol) despite what any vet, farrier,trimmer, experienced horseperson is telling me to do.

This to me is where the real difference comes in, it's a change of thinking more than anything. It's so inconvenient that I have to soak my ponys hay etc. so in my head I was still trying to find another way round it. Loads of horses eat haylage etc. so why can't she? I could have her shod and feed her anything but what would I be achieveing here in the long term? Eventually she would be sore in shoes, shoes and pads, reverse shoes, heartbar shoes or the next device someone can come up with to 'treat' her problem. The thing is, she isn't sore because she isn't wearing shoes, she is sore at times because I am not 
giving or providing her with what her body needs. My job is to find out where I'm letting her down not cover it up!

If she were still running up on the moor I wonder if she would be getting bouts of laminitis? 
No way am I saying all horses should be out there but I personally have learned that much of the life we provide for domestic horses is alien to what they have evolved to cope with that their systems get overloaded so any move I can make to provide a more natural lifestyle I will take.
Hooves are a great mirror of whole horse health imo.

This is my current thinking after about 10 years of believing horses shouldn't need to wear shoes. 

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native ponies are not designed to live on our pasture and many many owners over feed and let weight become a health risk. Personally I don't think any native should be fed haylage at all as it's far to rich for them and are disigned to live on the moor scrubs. A pony who has had laminitis will get sore feet when the damaged part off the hoof ( streched White line, damaged senitive lammi) reaches the bottom off the hoof. My pony has never had lammi until 2 yrs ago and use to hunt bare foot and never been shod in his life like my others as he didn't need it but did need shoes however when the damaged hoof hit the bottom and made him v sore. He had shoes on for a few months in front because off how sore he was and after the damage was out his foot the shoes came back off. He was shod because it made him comfy and could cope but without them he couldn't walk and I wouldn't be able to tell if he was sore or had lammi coming back. Once farrier gave the all clear the shoes came off and was sound as all the damaged hoof was gone. 
His hay is always soaked and all he gets is a lite balancer for vits/mins. Turnout in a greenguard. 
They will get lammi if shod or not if they are going 2


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## Jesstickle (9 January 2011)

boss93 said:



			I have somehow managed to miss this new craze. 

Would somebody be able to tell be the difference between a horse being unshod and a horse being 'barefoot' please? I have read through the thread but can't seem to find an answer. Thanks.
		
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There isn't one. Except unshod is an accurate description of the situation and 'barefoot' is not


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## soloequestrian (9 January 2011)

thatsmygirl said:



			Oh I also would like to add that if your horse is happy bare foot why do you use hoof boots? Proves that the horse ain't copeing to me. If the horse can go all day on any ground and is fine than yep he don't need shoes but if you need to use boots to help him cope than he shouldn't be bare foot
		
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Um, because hoof boots come off at the end of the ride whereas shoes don't.  I can't walk comfortably over rough, stony ground without my shoes on, but I don't wear the same ones 24/7!  Seems an odd question to me!

In answer to the post earlier about the boundaries between farriers and trimmers, this is a really interesting article:

http://www.hoofrehab.com/21stCenturyFarrier.html

The US seem to be light-years ahead of us....


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## thatsmygirl (9 January 2011)

boss93 said:



			I have somehow managed to miss this new craze. 

Would somebody be able to tell be the difference between a horse being unshod and a horse being 'barefoot' please? I have read through the thread but can't seem to find an answer. Thanks.
		
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A horse which is bare foot is ment to be able to cope with his normal work load without shoes on. A unshod horse has just got no shoes on.


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## amandap (9 January 2011)

jesstickle said:



			There isn't one. Except unshod is an accurate description of the situation and 'barefoot' is not 

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Actually I beg to differ here. Unshod is a term for any horse however trimmed not wearing shoes. A barefoot horse is one who works hard over different surfaces without being shod.


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## Jesstickle (9 January 2011)

thatsmygirl said:



			A horse which is bare foot is ment to be able to cope with his normal work load without shoes on. A unshod horse has just got no shoes on.
		
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Personally I would say an unshod horse should be able to cope with his workload too, other wise you're just being cruel leaving his shoes off. But then I think you may have said that already


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## thatsmygirl (9 January 2011)

soloequestrian said:



			Um, because hoof boots come off at the end of the ride whereas shoes don't.  I can't walk comfortably over rough, stony ground without my shoes on, but I don't wear the same ones 24/7!  Seems an odd question to me!

In answer to the post earlier about the boundaries between farriers and trimmers, this is a really interesting article:

http://www.hoofrehab.com/21stCenturyFarrier.html

The US seem to be light-years ahead of us....
		
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To me it seems " let the horse be natural, bare foot" but you have to use boots to help them cope? Not coping very well bare foot than. Iv got shod and bare foot horses. The bare foot horses have good feet and go on any ground without boots hence why I won't shoe them but the ones that can't do that are shod as their feet aren't strong enough


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## Jesstickle (9 January 2011)

amandap said:



			Actually I beg to differ here. Unshod is a term for any horse however trimmed not wearing shoes. A barefoot horse is one who works hard over different surfaces without being shod. 

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But semantically they mean exactly the same so how can you argue that?


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## thatsmygirl (9 January 2011)

jesstickle said:



			Personally I would say an unshod horse should be able to cope with his workload too, other wise you're just being cruel leaving his shoes off. But then I think you may have said that already 

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I think iv said to much already, could be a interesting night later. Oh well I'm off riding .... On my shod horse that is by a brill farrier


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## Jesstickle (9 January 2011)

thatsmygirl said:



			I think iv said to much already, could be a interesting night later. Oh well I'm off riding .... On my shod horse that is by a brill farrier 

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O. You cruel thing you. I shall report you to WHW immediately (although I know for a fact that they use a farrier rather than a trimmer because they use my old farrier)

I already rode my _ unshod _ horse for an hour and a half today on the roads and down a stony track. I don't know how he managed it!


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## amandap (9 January 2011)

jesstickle said:



			But semantically they mean exactly the same so how can you argue that?
		
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Semantically I can't! That's what it means to me. 

I am certainly not trying to convince anyone, there is no point and why should anyone take any notice of what I say! 
I have researched and come to my own conclusions which I stand by. 

I don't understand why people get so defensive tbh, all we have to do is have faith in own judgement and learning/understanding.   Be prepared to admit we need to look again. I'm talking of both sides of the argument here btw.

Modified to add. Get down with your cameras and have a good look at your horses feet. 
http://www.progressivehorse.co.uk/html/pin-ups.html


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## cptrayes (9 January 2011)

The "farriers train for four YEARS" thing is irrelevant. Partly because of what people have pointed out that they spend a lot of time learning to bend metal and apply shoes, skills which are not required for barefoot horses.

And secondly because the system of apprenticing a young lad to a Master Craftsman was set up hundreds of years ago. The time of the indenture was not only to learn the skill, but then to work for the Master to repay him for all the time and money that he had to put into training you. 

Four years is a historical thing. It does not take four years to learn to be a competent farrier, just as it does not take four years to learn to become a competent trimmer. The requirement to be an apprentice for four years before becoming a farrier is also relatively recent. One of the best farriers I ever used for my horses was completely unqualified and was allowed to practise because he already had decades of experience when the law was implemented requiring future farriers to be qualified.

I don't doubt that there are good welfare reasons for regulating the shoeing and trimming  of horses, but the "four years!" argument is not one of them.


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## Jesstickle (9 January 2011)

amandap said:



			I don't understand why people get so defensive tbh, all we have to do is have faith in own judgement and learning/understanding.   Be prepared to admit we need to look again. I'm talking of both sides of the argument here btw.
		
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I'm not really getting defensive I promise. I'm perfectly happy to accept that a good farrier is better than a bad trimmer, and conversely, that a good trimmer is better than a bad farrier. 

I think the problem arises because when anyone asks this question there is always at least one barefoot person who comes along and mentions 'suffering' and other such emotive words. I don't think that helps those of us who have always used the farrier approach bare foot with an open mind. It just puts peoples backs up and makes us think we don't want to be part of the fluffy bunny brigade. It's a real shame but it is what it is.

Like I say, mine is unshod but I would never imply someone who chooses to put shoes on their horse is mistreating them and allowing them to suffer. Even on this thread it has been said (although not by you or Lucy who have been perfectly polite).


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## soloequestrian (9 January 2011)

thatsmygirl said:



			To me it seems " let the horse be natural, bare foot" but you have to use boots to help them cope? Not coping very well bare foot than. Iv got shod and bare foot horses. The bare foot horses have good feet and go on any ground without boots hence why I won't shoe them but the ones that can't do that are shod as their feet aren't strong enough
		
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But if boots are only used to cope when the horse is expected to negotiate challenging terrain, and it is very comfortable for the rest of the time, why would you need to have shoes on the whole time to ensure its comfort?


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## thatsmygirl (9 January 2011)

If you look into it and after talking to a newly qualified farrier the other week, they spend more time learning how to trim and the working off the foot than the shoeing bit. In his own words " any old sod can nail on a shoe if they wanted and that's not the hard part" it's the balance and the trim off the foot which is the most important and the most important to get right.


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## mrdarcy (9 January 2011)

thatsmygirl said:



			Oh I also would like to add that if your horse is happy bare foot why do you use hoof boots? Proves that the horse ain't copeing to me. If the horse can go all day on any ground and is fine than yep he don't need shoes but if you need to use boots to help him cope than he shouldn't be bare foot
		
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But why do you think shoes are better than boots? Boots are always preferable as at the end of your ride you take them off and no damage has been done. You can argue this way and that way about shoes but surely no one can argue against the fact that putting a nail into the hoof wall damages it.

All horses can go barefoot - it's just a lot harder for some than others. If a horse is struggling and getting 'bruised' soles then it's the diet that is not working. Fix the diet - and for some horses that would mean permanently dry lotting them - and you fix the feet. It's pretty straight forward.

To answer the original question, of course many farriers are capable of doing a great barefoot trim, the problem isn't usually the trim, it's the diet and management advice that is lacking and the experience of working with hard working, competing barefoot horses. There are plenty of farriers who seem happy to encourage their clients to work their horses barefoot but at the first hint of problems will stick the shoes back on, rather than investigating and fixing the real problem. Or will say barefoot is fine until you start to up the workload. When you have the option of being able to shoe the temptation to go back to it when things get difficult is too easy because by the very nature of being a farrier you must think shoes are okay. For example I have a client who has an IR mare. She was shod all her life and very rarely sound. Got to the point where vet and farrier said there was nothing more they could do. At no point did either vet or farrier tell the owner that this mare should have zero access to grass, despite her having tested positive for IR. The mare was in heart bar shoes when I first met her and crippled. Owner was still sceptical but desperate. Shoes off, mare came sound quite quickly and spent the summer being ridden - something they hadn't been able to do for years. Farrier was baffled by what I as the trimmer was doing differently. Answer - two things, no shoes and no grass! Roll forwards to the recent cold spell. Owner changed hay supply and ended up feeding hay with lots of clover and had to stop soaking hay because of cold weather. The two things combined meant the mare came down with laminitis. Vet immediately said the mare should have heart bar shoes back on or to quote 'she will never come sound again'. Client phoned me - if I'd been a farrier no doubt I would have dashed over and put shoes on. Instead I told her to change the hay back to the old stuff and start soaking it again. Protect and support the feet by padding with nappies. Less than a week later the mare was 100% sound again. The vet came back out - same vet who'd said the mare would never be sound unless she was shod - and professed herself 'surprised' to see the mare doing so well. It would have been a massive and unnecessary shame to have put shoes back on this mare when the problem was with what she was eating not with her feet per se.

As for the four years training I know plenty of farriers who can't be bothered to do trims and send their apprentices out to do the trimming cases for them. How much training do apprentices have to do before being allowed to trim hooves? Does anyone know?


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## LucyPriory (9 January 2011)

'Fred' on my blog was shod by an award winning farrier. See it to believe it.


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## Randonneuse (9 January 2011)

LucyPriory said:



			Many of the barefoot trimmers are farriers who have retrained.  The AANHCP even has a vet who has done the training. Italian and drop dead gorgeous by the way.
		
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One has just finished his training with AANHCP, he is Spanish and a vet  Maybe we are not talking about the same person! ;-) (probably not if the one you are talking about is Italian!)


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## boss93 (9 January 2011)

jesstickle said:



			There isn't one. Except unshod is an accurate description of the situation and 'barefoot' is not 

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Oh i see... not by any chance a new money spinning idea then? Or is this just me being super cynical?!

In any case, in answer to the question, surely you could get good or bad of either proffessional, so just go with somebody well recommended and who you would trust near your horses feet. Personally though, the thought of using someone with just 14 days worth of training would worry me slightly...


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## LucyPriory (9 January 2011)

Randonneuse said:



			One has just finished his training with AANHCP, he is Spanish and a vet  Maybe we are not talking about the same person! ;-) (probably not if the one you are talking about is Italian!)
		
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Heck forget the geography - I'm not fussy - gorgeous of any nationality will do 

I do so hope the toy boy never gets to read this!


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## Laafet (9 January 2011)

Well according to this post I must be completely incompetent and so must the nutritionist (the leading one for Saracen Horse feeds) as we cannot find anything to help my horse's feet. He's a Welsh D x TB, with TB like thin soles and hoof wall, my farrier has to shoe him with extra thickness shoes every 5 weeks due to way he wears his feet (weaving and roadwork). He is intolerant to Alfa A and most ceral based feeds as well as tending to be overweight. So he is fed a balancer, TopKoat and Hifi and this works well for him weight wise but has made no change to his feet. They are good quality just thin in structure. Now I cannot stop him weaving when he is in and he is on rubber, I dread to think what would happen if he did not have shoes on. Plus what I said about my vet saying he should not go unshod in front.
I actually think I am reasonably experienced, which is a good thing given my job but maybe I am not - I am really so cruel to shoe my horse?


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## Roasted Chestnuts (9 January 2011)

I good farrier is better than a trimmer IMO.

Having seen some of the disasters on both sides of the net I might be licky in that my farrier has made a fantastic job of Kias bare hinds. Hard as rocks and no flaking or cracking


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## brucea (9 January 2011)

To me it seems " let the horse be natural, bare foot" but you have to use boots to help them cope? Not coping very well bare foot than. Iv got shod and bare foot horses. The bare foot horses have good feet and go on any ground without boots hence why I won't shoe them but the ones that can't do that are shod as their feet aren't strong enough
		
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If a horse is not coping very well barefoot then there is a reason for it - pluggin shoes on to that hoof is only going to mask it - the problem that caused the sensitivity in the first place is still there! 

Better to work out why they are sensitive in the first place - often is is as simple as mineral balance and cutting down sugars.


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## Randonneuse (9 January 2011)

LucyPriory said:



			Heck forget the geography - I'm not fussy - gorgeous of any nationality will do 

I do so hope the toy boy never gets to read this! 

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Ahah ;-) Caroline (AANHCP) came to trimm my ponys feet last week and told me about the Spanish BFT/vet ... she didn't mention him being gorgeous though! Will have to ask her next time she comes! (may as well meet him next time he comes to the UK!!!)


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## LucyPriory (9 January 2011)

Laafet said:



			Well according to this post I must be completely incompetent and so must the nutritionist (the leading one for Saracen Horse feeds) as we cannot find anything to help my horse's feet. He's a Welsh D x TB, with TB like thin soles and hoof wall, my farrier has to shoe him with extra thickness shoes every 5 weeks due to way he wears his feet (weaving and roadwork). He is intolerant to Alfa A and most ceral based feeds as well as tending to be overweight. So he is fed a balancer, TopKoat and Hifi and this works well for him weight wise but has made no change to his feet. They are good quality just thin in structure. Now I cannot stop him weaving when he is in and he is on rubber, I dread to think what would happen if he did not have shoes on. Plus what I said about my vet saying he should not go unshod in front.
I actually think I am reasonably experienced, which is a good thing given my job but maybe I am not - I am really so cruel to shoe my horse?
		
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In your post you have probably put your finger on the problem.  Intolerant of cereal based feeds, alfa a (so probably alfalfa) and is over weight.

 hifi original contains three ingredients which can cause problems for this type of horse.

Alfalfa, Cereal straw, Molasses, Mould Inhibitor.

The lite version is just as bad and the molasses free one is based on alfalfa.

Many (not all) shod horses have thin soles.


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## dilbert (9 January 2011)

My boy has always been barefoot and until about 6 months ago trimmed by a very competent/popular/experienced farrier.

I reluctantly switched to a trimmer after I phoned my farrier as my boy needed trimming - he had a lot of flare and stretching to white line area and I had concerns about LGL and farrier said that he didn't (without seeing him) . I'm really glad we switched as his feet look fab and his movement is much improved.

There's good and bad in both though.


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## thatsmygirl (9 January 2011)

brucea said:



			If a horse is not coping very well barefoot then there is a reason for it - pluggin shoes on to that hoof is only going to mask it - the problem that caused the sensitivity in the first place is still there! 

Better to work out why they are sensitive in the first place - often is is as simple as mineral balance and cutting down sugars.
		
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All my horses are on a low sugar/starch diet. All on topspec balancers in hi fi molasse free with speedi beet if needed. All have no cracks,chips nothing in their feet. Just some aren't cut out to be bare foot and can't cope with it. Anybody else seen horses muscals build up wrong while they try to go bare foot? To ease the pressure a bit and not move right? 
I'm sure some horses cope really well bare foot and iv got some but for others it just won't work and for those I won't force it upon them


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## LucyPriory (9 January 2011)

Randonneuse said:



			Ahah ;-) Caroline (AANHCP) came to trimm my ponys feet last week and told me about the Spanish BFT/vet ... she didn't mention him being gorgeous though! Will have to ask her next time she comes! (may as well meet him next time he comes to the UK!!!)


Click to expand...

I'm first in the queue!


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## fjordhorsefan (9 January 2011)

fizzer said:



			Whats pees me off is that there are some people that do not believe in having shoes at their animals cost.

There is a lady near me that on no terms will consider shoes , her horses are always lame, have abcesses and she trims them constantly.  She has been advised by a few professionals ie vet, chiropractor that maybe it does not suit her horses but because she would rather stick to HER beliefs, her poor horses are suffering.
		
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So agree!!  It should be what is best for the horse, not what the owner believes at the detriment of their animal.


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## Randonneuse (9 January 2011)

LucyPriory said:



			I'm first in the queue! 

Click to expand...

That's fine, I'll leave him to you, don't think my partner would be very happy anyway!!!! ;-)
(But for info he may come near Cirencester in the Summer apparently...not far from here!)


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## brucea (9 January 2011)

I seriously question mould inhibitors and antifungals. I think they are possibly not a good thing for the very sensitive ones.




			Many (not all) shod horses have thin soles.
		
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And then we slap shoes on which change the sole from being in a supporting role to being in a bridging role. Can that be a good idea?







Does this seem like a brilliant idea??? Maybe this is much better?







The more I think about it, the less sense peripheral loading makes.


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## Elsbells (9 January 2011)

fizzer said:



			Whats pees me off is that there are some people that do not believe in having shoes at their animals cost.

There is a lady near me that on no terms will consider shoes , her horses are always lame, have abcesses and she trims them constantly.  She has been advised by a few professionals ie vet, chiropractor that maybe it does not suit her horses but because she would rather stick to HER beliefs, her poor horses are suffering.
		
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Granted, but to be fair, there are equally an awful lot of lame shod horses out there with all the said symptoms, whos owners are just as hard nosed about not going barefoot because..........


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## amandap (9 January 2011)

jesstickle said:



			I'm not really getting defensive I promise. I'm perfectly happy to accept that a good farrier is better than a bad trimmer, and conversely, that a good trimmer is better than a bad farrier.
		
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My defensive comment was supposed to be a general comment,not aimed at you. I should have made that clearer.


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## Jesstickle (9 January 2011)

amandap said:



 
My defensive comment was supposed to be a general comment,not aimed at you. I should have made that clearer.
		
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Thought I'd better say. For some reason everything I've said the last couple of days on here has come out completely wrong! I've lost my diplomacy knack. I'll probably get infracted soon and everything!


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## LucyPriory (9 January 2011)

Ok, big fantasy bowl of sweets and chocolate for everyone to dive into at this point on me.

So long as none of it gets fed to your horses


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## Jesstickle (9 January 2011)

That's good timing because the popcorn I got out last night when this first started has all run out now. Ta LP


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## fizzer (9 January 2011)

elsbells said:



			Granted, but to be fair, there are equally an awful lot of lame shod horses out there with all the said symptoms, whos owners are just as hard nosed about not going barefoot because..........
		
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I totally agree, Im just using her as an example because she is the only person I personally know of where she seems to have lost all values of whats best for her horses. She is very passionate about what she believes in, which is great, but do not let your animal suffer because of it.

I would be just as peed off with someone who had shod horses and the same was happeneing.


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## Pearlsasinger (9 January 2011)

IMO there are good and bad farriers.  I would never let a bad farrier work on my horses' feet.  
However all farriers have had much more extensive training than any EP, so I would certainly never let one of them loose on their feet.  We currently have one shod all round, one shod on the front, one shoeless, all in work and one retired and shoeless.  Our excellent farrier trims and shoes as necessary, decisions about what each horse has are made in conjunction with his advice.
I do wonder how it is that unregistered farriers can be found to be breaking the law by preparing horses' feet for shoeing, while 'barefoot trimmers' get away with trimming without proper qualifications.


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## cptrayes (9 January 2011)

Laafet said:



			Well according to this post I must be completely incompetent and so must the nutritionist (the leading one for Saracen Horse feeds) as we cannot find anything to help my horse's feet. He's a Welsh D x TB, with TB like thin soles and hoof wall, my farrier has to shoe him with extra thickness shoes every 5 weeks due to way he wears his feet (weaving and roadwork). He is intolerant to Alfa A and most ceral based feeds as well as tending to be overweight. So he is fed a balancer, TopKoat and Hifi and this works well for him weight wise but has made no change to his feet. They are good quality just thin in structure. Now I cannot stop him weaving when he is in and he is on rubber, I dread to think what would happen if he did not have shoes on. Plus what I said about my vet saying he should not go unshod in front.
I actually think I am reasonably experienced, which is a good thing given my job but maybe I am not - I am really so cruel to shoe my horse?
		
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"when he is in"? When he is out is he on grass? Take him off the grass. He will then grow foot which will withstand the roadwork. No grass will probably  be the answer with this horse if you wanted it barefoot. If you don't, fine, shoe it.


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## cptrayes (9 January 2011)

brucea said:



			I seriously question mould inhibitors and antifungals. I think they are possibly not a good thing for the very sensitive ones.



And then we slap shoes on which change the sole from being in a supporting role to being in a bridging role. Can that be a good idea?







Does this seem like a brilliant idea??? Maybe this is much better?







The more I think about it, the less sense peripheral loading makes.
		
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Bruce I'm copying your diagram just because I think it is so b****y marvellous! The wonder is not that horses can work without shoes but that they are EVER sound long term in them, they work so counter to what nature intended! All that weight hanging off laminae that were never designed to do that job, and we wonder why it goes wrong from time to time!


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## thatsmygirl (9 January 2011)

Pearlsasinger said:



			IMO there are good and bad farriers.  I would never let a bad farrier work on my horses' feet.  
However all farriers have had much more extensive training than any EP, so I would certainly never let one of them loose on their feet.  We currently have one shod all round, one shod on the front, one shoeless, all in work and one retired and shoeless.  Our excellent farrier trims and shoes as necessary, decisions about what each horse has are made in conjunction with his advice.
I do wonder how it is that unregistered farriers can be found to be breaking the law by preparing horses' feet for shoeing, while 'barefoot trimmers' get away with trimming without proper qualifications.
		
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Yes you can trim your own horses feet and that's fine as long as it's not being perpaired for a shoe than it becomes illegal. Strange.


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## thatsmygirl (9 January 2011)

cptrayes said:



			Bruce I'm copying your diagram just because I think it is so b****y marvellous! The wonder is not that horses can work without shoes but that they are EVER sound long term in them, they work so counter to what nature intended! All that weight hanging off laminae that were never designed to do that job, and we wonder why it goes wrong from time to time!
		
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Now show a pic on stoney ground with stones digging into their soles and not so picture perfect


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## mrdarcy (9 January 2011)

Laafet said:



			Well according to this post I must be completely incompetent and so must the nutritionist (the leading one for Saracen Horse feeds) as we cannot find anything to help my horse's feet. He's a Welsh D x TB, with TB like thin soles and hoof wall, my farrier has to shoe him with extra thickness shoes every 5 weeks due to way he wears his feet (weaving and roadwork). He is intolerant to Alfa A and most ceral based feeds as well as tending to be overweight. So he is fed a balancer, TopKoat and Hifi and this works well for him weight wise but has made no change to his feet. They are good quality just thin in structure. Now I cannot stop him weaving when he is in and he is on rubber, I dread to think what would happen if he did not have shoes on. Plus what I said about my vet saying he should not go unshod in front.
I actually think I am reasonably experienced, which is a good thing given my job but maybe I am not - I am really so cruel to shoe my horse?
		
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'TB like thin soles' - it's such a myth that the thoroughbred as a breed has bad feet. It's simply untrue. TB feet can be just as great as any other breed. I've seen plenty of them. TB's only  have bad feet because of the way they are managed - many shod at a very young age (18 months), kept stabled, pumped full of cereals. If you take off their shoes, feed them right and condition their feet you would be amazed. You don't even need to stop racing them. Simon Earle is testament to that. The horses on his yard have beautiful feet. The thing that worries me is that for many professionals they still buy into this TB's have bad feet, end of. And that means that bad feet become acceptable for thoroughbreds - no point in trying to improve them, it's genetic. It so isn't!

But in this horse's case he is clearly cereal and alfalfa intolerant. Lucy is right in that HiFi contains alfalfa. And most balancers contain cereals - look at the small print, see if you see things like wheat feed, oat feed etc. These amounts may be small but for extra sensitive horses the smallest amounts can have huge consequences. The comments on preservatives and mold inhibitors are also very relevant. Most horses can cope with them fine but for a small minority (like a small minority of people who are wheat intolerant or dairy intolerant etc) the effects are catastrophic. I'd give Debbie at Thunderbrook horse feeds a ring and have a chat to her - all their feeds are preservative and mold inhibitor free. It's a very different way of feeding but I think would make a massive difference to this horse.


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## Laafet (9 January 2011)

cptrayes said:



			"when he is in"? When he is out is he on grass? Take him off the grass. He will then grow foot which will withstand the roadwork. No grass will probably  be the answer with this horse if you wanted it barefoot. If you don't, fine, shoe it.
		
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You know what in an ideal world this is what I would do, but he goes ballistic when in. He is ok this time of year being in at night but come spring he wants out as soon as the sun comes up. Believe me we have tried everything, but he gets himself so worked up that he weaves/box walks like crazy to the point where he is foaming with sweat. This is not really humane for him at all so we manage him by maximal turnout in the spring/summer but on very poor grass with the other fatties. I work professionally with horses and if it was so simple then would have managed to get round this. Also even though the vets suggested full box rest when he injured his suspensory, when they saw the state he got into even on sedation they said it was harming him more to be in and so I got him up to the stud where I work and had him on an allweather pen. This is only something I can do outside of the breeding season so he can't live at the stud permanently.

This is the problem with the forum, if it was so black and white we would not be here but then some people clearly believe that life is very black and white. If you feel that you can deal with his issues better then fine suggest them. The vets are stumped themselves after suggesting stuff that I have already done, next step is to prescribe him Valium so he can cope with being in more.


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## mrdarcy (9 January 2011)

thatsmygirl said:



			Now show a pic on stoney ground with stones digging into their soles and not so picture perfect
		
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Why would stones dig into the soles of a healthy barefoot? They certainly don't with my rock crunching barefooters.


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## thatsmygirl (9 January 2011)

mrdarcy said:



			'TB like thin soles' - it's such a myth that the thoroughbred as a breed has bad feet. It's simply untrue. TB feet can be just as great as any other breed. I've seen plenty of them. TB's only  have bad feet because of the way they are managed - many shod at a very young age (18 months), kept stabled, pumped full of cereals. If you take off their shoes, feed them right and condition their feet you would be amazed. You don't even need to stop racing them. Simon Earle is testament to that. The horses on his yard have beautiful feet. The thing that worries me is that for many professionals they still buy into this TB's have bad feet, end of. And that means that bad feet become acceptable for thoroughbreds - no point in trying to improve them, it's genetic. It so isn't!

But in this horse's case he is clearly cereal and alfalfa intolerant. Lucy is right in that HiFi contains alfalfa. And most balancers contain cereals - look at the small print, see if you see things like wheat feed, oat feed etc. These amounts may be small but for extra sensitive horses the smallest amounts can have huge consequences. The comments on preservatives and mold inhibitors are also very relevant. Most horses can cope with them fine but for a small minority (like a small minority of people who are wheat intolerant or dairy intolerant etc) the effects are catastrophic. I'd give Debbie at Thunderbrook horse feeds a ring and have a chat to her - all their feeds are preservative and mold inhibitor free. It's a very different way of feeding but I think would make a massive difference to this horse.[/QUOTE
iv found something I agree with 
yes tb feet aren't bad and iv bought plenty with bad feet it is purely down to mostly bad diet not the breed off horse. 
Re the balancers, topspec is cereal free but does contain wheat meal I think it's called. Rung them to ask because I won't feed cereal diet and it's not the high starch wheat that is used ( the inners) purely the outer husk which makes  no different and can be classed as careal free.
		
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## LucyPriory (9 January 2011)

swopped the sweets for bananas and cream.....

I have seen so many nails through feet I am starting to turn veggie.  Pulling them out makes me want to drive the porcelain bus.

I wonder if shoeing were invented today if it would be allowed?

It is very possible to screw up badly when trimming, but it usually takes several determinedly ignorant attempts, whereas it is incredibly easy to do major injury to a horse with even a fair attempt at shoeing.

The worst trim jobs I have seen have been farrier or owner/trimmer.  I have seen a poor one by a barefoot trimmer specialist, but it was poor, not gob smackingly awful.

But the lame horses I get called out to are invariably shod, rarely bare, so my experience of other trimmers work is in comparison limited.

Ok, now for the important business of raiding the sweetie jar


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## thatsmygirl (9 January 2011)

mrdarcy said:



			Why would stones dig into the soles of a healthy barefoot? They certainly don't with my rock crunching barefooters.
		
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Why are there so many bare footed horses around me with bruised soles? They can't cope with the crap ground we have in our area. The equine vets farrier is correcting 3 who have such bad bruised feet x rays have been done. I blame the owners for half this for not noticeing but I can't say on here what the vet said, I would get banned. 

Iv got a tb who I would love to go bare foot so if anybody is in the south west area I'm willing to try and let you prove me wrong? Iv tried but as soon as he stands on a stone off any size he's lame as and the graval I picked deep out his soles was stupid. 
He's got no slits cracks etc in his feet, all the instructors comment on how he's moves and uses himself and on a diet off topspec comprehensive balancer, hi fi un mollessed and speedi beet. 
As soon as his shoes are off he can't stand and there's no way he will walk around the yard. 
Honestly I'm being serious here if anybody is local I will try and see if I can change my views


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## cptrayes (9 January 2011)

Laafet said:



			You know what in an ideal world this is what I would do, but he goes ballistic when in. He is ok this time of year being in at night but come spring he wants out as soon as the sun comes up. Believe me we have tried everything, but he gets himself so worked up that he weaves/box walks like crazy to the point where he is foaming with sweat. This is not really humane for him at all so we manage him by maximal turnout in the spring/summer but on very poor grass with the other fatties. I work professionally with horses and if it was so simple then would have managed to get round this. Also even though the vets suggested full box rest when he injured his suspensory, when they saw the state he got into even on sedation they said it was harming him more to be in and so I got him up to the stud where I work and had him on an allweather pen. This is only something I can do outside of the breeding season so he can't live at the stud permanently.

This is the problem with the forum, if it was so black and white we would not be here but then some people clearly believe that life is very black and white. If you feel that you can deal with his issues better then fine suggest them. The vets are stumped themselves after suggesting stuff that I have already done, next step is to prescribe him Valium so he can cope with being in more.
		
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I didn't say IN. I said no grass. Plenty of people do it on tracks and dry lots. It IS so simple, I did it with a horse whose soles were 3.5 mm thick last year who had also been on very very very sparse grazing - still too much. Grass was his only real issue. 

If you can't or won't then shoe, simples!


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## LucyPriory (9 January 2011)

thatsmygirl said:



			Why are there so many bare footed horses around me with bruised soles? They can't cope with the crap ground we have in our area. The equine vets farrier is correcting 3 who have such bad bruised feet x rays have been done. I blame the owners for half this for not noticeing but I can't say on here what the vet said, I would get banned. 

Iv got a tb who I would love to go bare foot so if anybody is in the south west area I'm willing to try and let you prove me wrong? Iv tried but as soon as he stands on a stone off any size he's lame as and the graval I picked deep out his soles was stupid. 
He's got no slits cracks etc in his feet, all the instructors comment on how he's moves and uses himself and on a diet off topspec comprehensive balancer, hi fi un mollessed and speedi beet. 
As soon as his shoes are off he can't stand and there's no way he will walk around the yard. 
Honestly I'm being serious here if anybody is local I will try and see if I can change my views
		
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Contact Caroline Anderson of www.hooftrimmers.co.uk


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## LucyPriory (9 January 2011)

thatsmygirl said:





mrdarcy said:



			'TB like thin soles' - it's such a myth that the thoroughbred as a breed has bad feet. It's simply untrue. TB feet can be just as great as any other breed. I've seen plenty of them. TB's only  have bad feet because of the way they are managed - many shod at a very young age (18 months), kept stabled, pumped full of cereals. If you take off their shoes, feed them right and condition their feet you would be amazed. You don't even need to stop racing them. Simon Earle is testament to that. The horses on his yard have beautiful feet. The thing that worries me is that for many professionals they still buy into this TB's have bad feet, end of. And that means that bad feet become acceptable for thoroughbreds - no point in trying to improve them, it's genetic. It so isn't!

But in this horse's case he is clearly cereal and alfalfa intolerant. Lucy is right in that HiFi contains alfalfa. And most balancers contain cereals - look at the small print, see if you see things like wheat feed, oat feed etc. These amounts may be small but for extra sensitive horses the smallest amounts can have huge consequences. The comments on preservatives and mold inhibitors are also very relevant. Most horses can cope with them fine but for a small minority (like a small minority of people who are wheat intolerant or dairy intolerant etc) the effects are catastrophic. I'd give Debbie at Thunderbrook horse feeds a ring and have a chat to her - all their feeds are preservative and mold inhibitor free. It's a very different way of feeding but I think would make a massive difference to this horse.[/QUOTE
iv found something I agree with 
yes tb feet aren't bad and iv bought plenty with bad feet it is purely down to mostly bad diet not the breed off horse. 
Re the balancers, topspec is cereal free but does contain wheat meal I think it's called. Rung them to ask because I won't feed cereal diet and it's not the high starch wheat that is used ( the inners) purely the outer husk which makes  no different and can be classed as careal free.
		
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oh oh oh, wheat feed is a known baddie - and it is a cereal (derivative)

extracted from http://thunderbrook.co.uk/app/download/3106767802/Some+ingredients+of+processed+horse+feeds.pdf

Wheatfeed, Wheat Middlings
Wheatfeed is not ground up whole wheat or wheat bran. This is the major milling waste by-product of flour,
fed to horses in the UK. Wheatfeed is obtained from screened grains or dehusked spelt. It consists principally
of fragments of the outer skins and particles of the grain, course middlings and fine middlings. It is processed
(usually pelleted) to bind the fine particles together. In addition to seed treatment and ammonium nitrate
fertilisers, wheat grown in the UK receives on average 3 treatments of fungicides, 3 herbicides, 2 growth
regulators and 1 insecticide. The grain may then be dusted, sprayed or gassed with pesticides in farm grain
stores, followed by another possible dust, gas or spray of pesticides in commercial grain storage. The fabric
of the stores may also be sprayed with pesticides. Wheatfeed is primarily the outer parts of the wheat grain
that have been in direct contact with these various treatments, and contain dust, dirt, mould spores and
mycotoxins concentrated during the milling process, as for oatfeed above.
		
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## Queenbee (9 January 2011)

mrdarcy said:



			Why would stones dig into the soles of a healthy barefoot? They certainly don't with my rock crunching barefooters.
		
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Well they bloody well do with my TB x Friesian who has excellent feet, high fibre diet with mineral supplement and low sugar,  I know it's not because she's a nancy.....














that'll be the sodding farriers fault! I shall trundle off and pay more than a pair of shoes cost to have a 2 week trained person see what he/she can 'leave on the feet' that'll fix it!


Goddamnit, not all horses can do the whole barefoot/unshod thing, not all horses need/go well with shoes/ not all BFT's are worth the money and there are equally some farriers that I wouldn't let near a rocking horse, I do think the following though:

Granted, probably the majority of the farriers training is to do with 'shoeing' the horse, but they do learn about the other things too, such as balance, anatomy, conditions and ailments and yes feeding.  This takes 4 years, I am sure that during the four years they spend more than 2 weeks learning what BFT's take 2 weeks to learn.  Interestingly 2 weeks out of 4 years is considerably less than 1%  I am sure that farriers spend more than 1% of their time learning the 'barefoot/unshod' aspect of a horse.  Furthermore, I will always have a hard time trusting anyone who goes around spouting that in 2 weeks they learnt verything about all ailments/ remedial treatments/ conditions/Dietary requirements of the horse and how this relates to the horse and its hooves.


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## LucyPriory (9 January 2011)

queenbee said:



			Well they bloody well do with my TB x Friesian who has excellent feet, high fibre diet with mineral supplement and low sugar,  I know it's not because she's a nancy......
		
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Queenbee - putting aside any frustration or other emotive aspects.

How hard and how thick are your TB x Friesian's soles?  Perhaps you could post photos?  It would be really interesting to see.

I for one would be appreciative


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## Jesstickle (9 January 2011)

I had a TB with incredibly flat feet. They were like soup plates. I don't think he would ever have stayed sound without shoes. He was constantly picking up bruises and abscesses as it was. 

I think if you have a horse which can never have grass just so it can be barefoot that's a pretty grotty experience for the poor creature. If I was looking at that I'm afraid I would consider shoes the lesser of two evils. JMO of course


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## paddy555 (9 January 2011)

```
All my horses are on a low sugar/starch diet. All on topspec balancers in hi fi molasse free with speedi beet if needed. All have no cracks,chips nothing in their feet. Just some aren't cut out to be bare foot and can't cope with it. Anybody else seen horses muscals build up wrong while they try to go bare foot? To ease the pressure a bit and not move right?
I'm sure some horses cope really well bare foot and iv got some but for others it just won't work and for those I won't force it upon them
```

They may well not cope with barefoot on Top Spec balancer. Many unshod horses have had problems with it which have gone when it has been removed from the diet. My horse was footsore until I removed it. It took me a long time to accept that it was the top spec balancer. I removed everything else from  the diet first. Only when removing the T/S was the problem solved. I then found that lots of people had come to the same conclusion.


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## cptrayes (9 January 2011)

jesstickle said:



			I think if you have a horse which can never have grass just so it can be barefoot that's a pretty grotty experience for the poor creature. If I was looking at that I'm afraid I would consider shoes the lesser of two evils. JMO of course
		
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I doubt if my rehab would describe himself as " a poor creature". He is full of the joys of life, which is just as well because if I had not taken him on his other choice was to be put to sleep. Do you REALLY think a horse would rather be dead than live life on a dry lot with hay to eat?

Shoes were not an option, he had navicular disease too.


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## amandap (9 January 2011)

jesstickle said:



			I've lost my diplomacy knack. I'll probably get infracted soon and everything!
		
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I don't think so.  What does infracted mean please? 

I've got a 'poor creature' who can't eat grass. Mmmm, I have choices, I allow her to eat grass and get laminitis or I provide a good grass free area with friends or what? Pts because life is unbearable without grass? Should we pts humans who have diabetes or other diseases whose lifestyle and or diet is restricted? It's not a difficult one for me when a good quality of life can be provided. 
Yards, tracks etc. etc. there's no need to stable purely to avoid grass in my view.


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## Jesstickle (9 January 2011)

cptrayes said:



			I doubt if my rehab would describe himself as " a poor creature". He is full of the joys of life, which is just as well because if I had not taken him on his other choice was to be put to sleep. Do you REALLY think a horse would rather be dead than live life on a dry lot with hay to eat?

Shoes were not an option, he had navicular disease too.
		
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Well he's a horse so he wouldn't 'rather' either of the options. He has no sense of what tomorrow means or of his own mortality. 

I'm sure he is very happy. I wasn't trying to cast aspersions. The option of dry lotting horses, with enough space to have a hoon and to have a few friends out with them is not available to the vast majority of people. So saying no grass for most horses in this country means living in isolation on a tiny patch of earth at best. That is no life IMHO.


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## Oberon (9 January 2011)

I use UKNHCP trimmers because I was tired of being relegated to the farrier's apprentice, who one day decided to perform a bit of veterinary surgery on my horse's feet by digging into live tissue on the sole and caused him to be stood in pools of blood.

Why he did this to my boy's healthy feet, I will never know. NO explanation was given by either the apprentice or 'supervising' farrier.

I didn't know enough at the time to go nuts. Since becoming part of the 'barefoot taliban' I have learnt as much as I can about feet. Nowadays I would go nuts and take the appropriate punitive action!

I wish people wouldn't get so defensive about shoeing their horses. It's none of my business if an owner chooses to put shoes on their own horse.

But when said horse has a problem and taking the shoes off MAY help, I wish people wouldn't refuse to look at it as an option because they have THE horse that could NEVER manage without shoes. 

A barefoot trimmer (a GOOD barefoot trimmer) could look at things from a different angle and maybe find that piece of the puzzle that would help.

Is that really a bad thing?

I know my trimmers are not evil, fluffy, money grabbing, cultists.

They routinely advise owners to shoe if they feel the horse needs it.


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## Jesstickle (9 January 2011)

amandap said:



			I don't think so.  What does infracted mean please? 

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If you're naughty enough then admin gives you an infraction. It's basically a point system, so the naughtier you are the more infraction points. If you get enough you get banned for a period or permanently if you're really bad


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## LucyPriory (9 January 2011)

jesstickle said:



			I had a TB with incredibly flat feet. They were like soup plates. I don't think he would ever have stayed sound without shoes. He was constantly picking up bruises and abscesses as it was. 

I think if you have a horse which can never have grass just so it can be barefoot that's a pretty grotty experience for the poor creature. If I was looking at that I'm afraid I would consider shoes the lesser of two evils. JMO of course
		
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Everyone focuses on the feet because that is what we can see.  But of course the problem originates in the caecum (cecum US) and that problem is not solved by shoes.

So the horse can't feel it's feet, so we think 'fantastic' but it still has a problem in its gut, we just don't necessarily notice, doesn't mean its not there.  Is that ok?

And the damage being done to the feet is still being done, but of course we can't see it.  

It is possible (not always easy) to provide a horse friendly environment that meets all the criteria, keeps them well in every respect and barefoot sound.   

Unfortunately in this country we have deliberately bred and cultivated large swathes of pasture which is entirely unsuitable for some horses.

If someone made me eat unsuitable food every day (I get IBS) and covered up the consequences by numbing the pain, I am not sure I would thank them for it, because I know that although I might be pain free, the damage was still being done and would have long term consequences.

It's another way of thinking and not acceptable to everyone, but each to their own.


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## mrdarcy (9 January 2011)

jesstickle said:



			I had a TB with incredibly flat feet. They were like soup plates. I don't think he would ever have stayed sound without shoes. He was constantly picking up bruises and abscesses as it was. 

I think if you have a horse which can never have grass just so it can be barefoot that's a pretty grotty experience for the poor creature. If I was looking at that I'm afraid I would consider shoes the lesser of two evils. JMO of course
		
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Hummmmnnnn. The act of putting on shoes doesn't stop the feet of extra sugar sensitive horses being affected by grass. The damage will still occur - inflammation of the supercorium, leading to weak white lines, white line disease, brittle hoof wall, hoof wall cracks, inability to keep shoes on, thin, flat soles, intermittent lameness, abscesses, short strides, pottery on hard ground, bruising of soles etc etc etc Sound familiar? A horse that is extremely sugar intolerant is sugar intolerant whether it's shod or not. How many horses have we all come across with poor quality feet? As you've described yourself, your own TB had very flat feet, bruised easily and was frequently having abscesses. Shoes didn't stop these things or improve the feet. Cutting out the sugar/grass would have done.


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## Jesstickle (9 January 2011)

LucyPriory said:



			So the horse can't feel it's feet, so we think 'fantastic' but it still has a problem in its gut, we just don't necessarily notice, doesn't mean its not there.  Is that ok?
		
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I have absolutely no reason to think he had any dietary problems. He was a healthy little soul, only ate hay and readigrass and real grass of course.

He was basically born with flat feet. Some people are too. It doesn't mean they have a bad diet. It means they have flat feet. Sometimes issues can be genetic. All sorts of health issues can be hereditary. Are you saying that every dog born with hip dysplaysia or every deaf white dog in the world is a product of its environment?


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## LucyPriory (9 January 2011)

ditto darcy


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## Oberon (9 January 2011)

jesstickle said:



			Well he's a horse so he wouldn't 'rather' either of the options. He has no sense of what tomorrow means or of his own mortality. 

I'm sure he is very happy. I wasn't trying to cast aspersions. The option of dry lotting horses, with enough space to have a hoon and to have a few friends out with them is not available to the vast majority of people. So saying no grass for most horses in this country means living in isolation on a tiny patch of earth at best. That is no life IMHO.
		
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I followed CPTrayes' rehab of said horse. He really was a day away from being PTS. Everyone had given up on him. CPTrayes worked so hard and horse came sound. Even fellow barefooters were doubtful at the time, but she did it.

I know CPTrayes found someone nearby with the right facilities to enjoy him and give him a great life.

It was one of those stories that had a great happy ending!

I agree that many owners could not provide the facilities to keep horses like this sound barefoot. I certainly couldn't on my yard. I could never leave a horse alone on a small patch of dirt all day. Shoes are often the only option - at least during spring and summer.

The horse in question just couldn't manage in shoes anymore either and the only option was PTS - but CPTrayes managed to see another way.

Maybe that's not so bad? I know she received no money for the whole thing either.


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## Jesstickle (9 January 2011)

Oberon said:



			I followed CPTrayes' rehab of said horse. He really was a day away from being PTS. Everyone had given up on him. CPTrayes worked so hard and horse came sound. Even fellow barefooters were doubtful at the time, but she did it.

I know CPTrayes found someone nearby with the right facilities to enjoy him and give him a great life.

It was one of those stories that had a great happy ending!

I agree that many owners could not provide the facilities to keep horses like this sound barefoot. I certainly couldn't on my yard. I could never leave a horse alone on a small patch of dirt all day. Shoes are often the only option - at least during spring and summer.

The horse in question just couldn't manage in shoes anymore either and the only option was PTS - but CPTrayes managed to see another way.

Maybe that's not so bad? I know she received no money for the whole thing either.
		
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No, that's not bad at all. That's wonderful. I am not anti bare foot at all. I am just anti being told it is the answer to all the worlds problems and that I am cruel for even thinking of shoeing my horse. 

To all involved in this story I would like to offer a genuine, heartfelt well done.


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## TallyHo123 (9 January 2011)

Imo farrier do a better job every time. I think bare foot trimming is just a fad and tbh don't think they have been around enough etc. to really trust them etc.


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## mrdarcy (9 January 2011)

jesstickle said:



			I have absolutely no reason to think he had any dietary problems.
		
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Apart from the flat feet, the abscesses and the bruised soles?


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## Jesstickle (9 January 2011)

mrdarcy said:



			Apart from the flat feet, the abscesses and the bruised soles?
		
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Yep, which he always had. Even as a very young horse.


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## thatsmygirl (9 January 2011)

mrdarcy said:



			Apart from the flat feet, the abscesses and the bruised soles?
		
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And bare foot horses get bruised feet and abscesses as well.


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## brucea (9 January 2011)

You lot! Made me go off and delve through old pics!

I've gone back and looked through my annual x rays of my ISH since the year he had his shoes off. There are substantial changes in the hoof, but as the baseboard is very faint in a couple of the x rays I'm not going to post them (and they show the vet's name and that's not fair) - but going by the heads of the screws I think there has been a thickening of the sole from 12/14 mm in 2008  to 25mm in 2010 xrays.


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## LucyPriory (9 January 2011)

it is not a simple equation

flat feet does not automatically = bruised soles and abscesses

I see lots of flat footed horses that don't have either bruises or abscesses and they mostly work very hard on all sorts of rough and hard surfaces.


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## thatsmygirl (9 January 2011)

I'm off to bed so this is my last say. 
I have bare foot horses who live with my shod horses and on the same diet, I leave them bare footed because they cope with the work and have no problems and need no boots. However if I had a horse who I had to cut out grazing and boot up to ride and need dry areas etc I would shoe them as I feel they wouldn't have natually strong feet like mine.

A girl I know has her horse fed on a crap diet off mollichaff extra , sugar beet and mix but yet her horse copes perfectly well with bare foot. Why if diet is so important? 

So maybe if a horse is ment to be bare foot it will cope what ever his diet and work and why should we cut out his grazeing etc to try and make him what we want. 

All I know is my shod horses are shod for a reason and are sound and happy and my bare foot horses have as much turn out as the shod horses and that's the way it should be.


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## Jesstickle (9 January 2011)

thatsmygirl said:



			I'm off to bed so this is my last say. 
I have bare foot horses who live with my shod horses and on the same diet, I leave them bare footed because they cope with the work and have no problems and need no boots. However if I had a horse who I had to cut out grazing and boot up to ride and need dry areas etc I would shoe them as I feel they wouldn't have natually strong feet like mine.

A girl I know has her horse fed on a crap diet off mollichaff extra , sugar beet and mix but yet her horse copes perfectly well with bare foot. Why if diet is so important? 

So maybe if a horse is ment to be bare foot it will cope what ever his diet and work and why should we cut out his grazeing etc to try and make him what we want. 

All I know is my shod horses are shod for a reason and are sound and happy and my bare foot horses have as much turn out as the shod horses and that's the way it should be.
		
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This is what I've been trying to say and failing miserably to.


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## sugarlump121 (9 January 2011)

Have not had chance to read the dozens of replies yet but my rising 4 year old has had 3 different 'farriers' and the first 1 did a reasonable jobon 2 occasions from when I had him at 6months but then unfortunately was off work for about 9 months so I chose another farrier of whom 1/3 of the people on my yard used on a regular basis, he's old so I presumed better as had more experience- thought he'd do a better job than the younger more recently qualified ones.

As every other person on here I'm sure, I wanted the best for my boy and thought this was it. About 12-16 months later it was getting to the stage where trimmings were every 4-5 weeks- down from 8, this was because my boys feet were starting to split more and more. Farrier said this was normal and only down to my horse. When he said I'd probably need shoes on him (a 2 year old!) and a check up with the vet that wasn't too impressed that was the final straw!

I showed his feet to original farrier and another 'younger' (well 27!) one asking what they'd do next. The younger one gave me more hope in his answer and explained everything really well so he started trimming my boy. 

That was about 18 months ago and his feet are so much better. I nearly fell over the first time he did them as he worked from every angle on each hoof and took the time the other one took on all 4 just to do 1! There are splits on the outer side of both back hooves that come from the corenet band which is down to them not being balanced properly as they were growing (he would have been hitting the floor in the wrong area) but they're loads better- vet was impressed too.

Have since found out this farrier isn't qualified and many others have stopped using him too- a friends 2 horses both developed splints in a similar area on the leg of the front shod foot that looked an irregular shape. Anothers horse was went progressively lame. The people who still use him are aware he has no qualifications but continue to use him....?

I'm angry with myself as all I wanted was the best for my boy.

I have never seen or used a barefoot trimmer so don't feel its fair to comment- and even 1 of them does not represent the quality of the others as with anyone in a profession.


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## LucyPriory (9 January 2011)

re the diet thing and some bare others not.

Horses are individual, just like people.  I can eat chocolate, my brothers and sister can not, they get migraines.

I can not eat some processed products, I get IBS, but they don't.

My other half can drink high fat milk, I can't it makes me chesty.

One good friend eats a lot of junk, it shows, another seems fine.

Ditto the dogs, GSD are often prone to digestive upsets (apparently) but mine can eat anything and is fine, including rotting carcasses, custard and all sorts of rubbish.  

But my lab\GSD cross was very ill if she ate anything with wheat in it.

So yes diet is critical, but it is also individual.


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## mrdarcy (9 January 2011)

thatsmygirl said:



			I'm off to bed so this is my last say. 
I have bare foot horses who live with my shod horses and on the same diet, I leave them bare footed because they cope with the work and have no problems and need no boots. However if I had a horse who I had to cut out grazing and boot up to ride and need dry areas etc I would shoe them as I feel they wouldn't have natually strong feet like mine.

A girl I know has her horse fed on a crap diet off mollichaff extra , sugar beet and mix but yet her horse copes perfectly well with bare foot. Why if diet is so important? 

So maybe if a horse is ment to be bare foot it will cope what ever his diet and work and why should we cut out his grazeing etc to try and make him what we want. 

All I know is my shod horses are shod for a reason and are sound and happy and my bare foot horses have as much turn out as the shod horses and that's the way it should be.
		
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Why can some humans eat burgers/chips/cakes and never get fat and other humans eat exactly the same diet and become horribly obese?


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## Jesstickle (9 January 2011)

Jeez, you guys are militant! I give up


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## MerrySherryRider (9 January 2011)

Barefoot Gurus make feeding mystical, hence giving long consultations to justify exorbitant fees. Stop rugging and over feeding, turn 'em out and work them. Not rocket science.


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## Randonneuse (9 January 2011)

LucyPriory said:



			Contact Caroline Anderson of www.hooftrimmers.co.uk

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Thatsmygirl, Lucy is right.
Contact Caroline, she trimms my ponys feet, does a very good job, is lovely and you can ask her whatever you want to know she will always try to answer your questions! 
I've been using her since I brought him from France in May 2010 and haven't had any problems! 
Pony goes on all sorts of grounds and doesn't care is there are stones, or if it is road, tracks etc! (he has been barefoot for now a bit more than 4 years but wasn't ridden a lot in France as I have been living in the UK since I had his shoes taken off!)


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## cptrayes (9 January 2011)

horserider said:



			Barefoot Gurus make feeding mystical, hence giving long consultations to justify exorbitant fees. Stop rugging and over feeding, turn 'em out and work them. Not rocket science.
		
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Quite the reverse actually, we make it UNmystical -

give the horse the diet he was evolved to eat - scrub with plenty of variety, not lush green grass, especially not of one species originally grown for dairy cows.

and the environment he was evolved to live in -

mostly dry with lots of movement.

If you can't do that, get as close to it as you can.

Simples!


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## cptrayes (9 January 2011)

To echo the "whole health, not just the feet" thing being said above, the rehab I took on came to me as a manic wood-eater (rafters above his head if they were the only wood available; he savaged a saddle when no wood was around) and an extremely severe sweet itch sufferer who had to be rugged from nose to tail even when inside a stable or he rubbed himself raw and has the scars to prove it. He also had odd panic attacks, for example when in his stable and a farm machine was working in a next door field.

Removed from grass, he almost immediately stopped wood chewing. He never suffered from sweet itch though stabled close to water. I had a 20 ton lorry deliver an arena topup whose driver had to pull in his wing mirrors to scrape past his stable door and he never batted an eyelid.

Now would you tell me that he would be better off on grass, even if his feet would allow it? He was clearly a horse who was sick from the inside out, mentally and physically.

By the way, I have NOTHING at stake in promoting barefoot other than the welfare of the horse. I am not a paid trimmer. Heaven help us, I even taught myself from a book, though I would recommend courses now that better ones are available.


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## mrdarcy (9 January 2011)

horserider said:



			Barefoot Gurus make feeding mystical, hence giving long consultations to justify exorbitant fees. Stop rugging and over feeding, turn 'em out and work them. Not rocket science.
		
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Not sure where you get that from. What's mystical about advising people to feed simply and naturally? And where are the exhorbitant fees? Examples please!


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## brucea (9 January 2011)

Jeez, you guys are militant! I give up
		
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Sorry we are coming across like that

What has happened really is that those of us who are heavilly into this barefoot thing are really questioning "accepted wisdom" and "traditional approaches" and once you've questioned one thing it is easier to question the next...and so on

But we are finding that it is not as simple as "just do this" and there are a lot of individual variations - just as there are in people. And different horses in the same environment and on the same feed will react in different ways. 

So it is really the case that we have to try to work out what is going on with THIS horse in THIS environment.

But what we won't do is accept that "just put shoes on" answer - because if the horse is lame barefoot they are compromised in shoes as well and ethically it is best to understand the underlying causes and factors affecting that horse, not just mask it. 

We won't "just put shoes on" beucase even many experienced farriers are now openly acknowledging that shoes are harmful for the horse in the long term and inhibit the natural development of the equine hoof.

But similarly if shoes are the only thing that will make the horse pain free then it is unethical not to use them. I would, but I've never got to that point yet. I was considering it with one of mine, but a change of land and pasture made a world of difference.

P.S. Oberon "Barefoot Taliban" tsk...tsk...I can't think where you picked up such an unsavoury phrase


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## AndySpooner (9 January 2011)

It seemsto me that with all the alternative views that are aired on these threads, the mistake that so many of us make, is that we get too specific about individual horses that we own. For example, my horse eats lots of sugar laden products with no ill effects therefore sugar is ok.

The fact is that horses don't eat lots of sugar naturally but it has become the norm for feed companies to lace their products with sugar to make them palatable, so it has become the modern accepted thing for us all to go along with it.

The fact that scientific research into the way we keep our horses is on going and the reasons we do what we do are sometimes challenged, this in turn invites debate where the challenges have to be justified.

Horses were at the time shoeing started in about 600 AD, were used for military purposes in the main. Oxen were the beast of burden. At this time when armour was the norm, when knights and their mounts were encased in steel,  it was a small step to put shoes on their feet. The reasons for this vary between to make them more lethal to infantry to protect their feet in damp urine soaked castle stables. Personslly, as cavalry were still being used in Europe in the second world war I tend to favour the shoes as weapons option.

I would guess that the effects of shoeing on horses feet was not subjected to any sort of meaningful research, and horses would have lead a fairly short life with a violent end, so any lasting damage to their feet would of been of little interest.

So here we are some 1400 years late still shoeing horses, although the reasons for it have been amended. surely we have now become so well informed about the structure and workings of the horses hooves that the detrimental effects are well documented and researched. The fact that some horses cope with shoes is not a justification for shoeing. Given the accepted level of lameness and unsoundness amongst our shod horses cries out for change. It may well be that some horses cope well with being shod, but surely we are now in a position to feed properly and care for their feet properly, and not go down the road of my horse cope so all is well.


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## MerrySherryRider (10 January 2011)

jesstickle said:



			Jeez, you guys are militant! I give up 

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Me too, I'm out.
But for the record, I'm very pro keeping mine, when possible, unshod. Currently working with a 4 year old that had shoes on at 3, to stay au natural as to shoe her lovely feet is a crime.
 Just can't be doing with extremists. The parellites of the hoof world.


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## mrdarcy (10 January 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			It seemsto me that with all the alternative views that are aired on these threads, the mistake that so many of us make, is that we get too specific about individual horses that we own. For example, my horse eats lots of sugar laden products with no ill effects therefore sugar is ok.

The fact is that horses don't eat lots of sugar naturally but it has become the norm for feed companies to lace their products with sugar to make them palatable, so it has become the modern accepted thing for us all to go along with it.

The fact that scientific research into the way we keep our horses is on going and the reasons we do what we do are sometimes challenged, this in turn invites debate where the challenges have to be justified.

Horses were at the time shoeing started in about 600 AD, were used for military purposes in the main. Oxen were the beast of burden. At this time when armour was the norm, when knights and their mounts were encased in steel,  it was a small step to put shoes on their feet. The reasons for this vary between to make them more lethal to infantry to protect their feet in damp urine soaked castle stables. Personslly, as cavalry were still being used in Europe in the second world war I tend to favour the shoes as weapons option.

I would guess that the effects of shoeing on horses feet was not subjected to any sort of meaningful research, and horses would have lead a fairly short life with a violent end, so any lasting damage to their feet would of been of little interest.

So here we are some 1400 years late still shoeing horses, although the reasons for it have been amended. surely we have now become so well informed about the structure and workings of the horses hooves that the detrimental effects are well documented and researched. The fact that some horses cope with shoes is not a justification for shoeing. Given the accepted level of lameness and unsoundness amongst our shod horses cries out for change. It may well be that some horses cope well with being shod, but surely we are now in a position to feed properly and care for their feet properly, and not go down the road of my horse cope so all is well.
		
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Great post!

Horses used to be routinely fired for tendon injuries - fortunately this has pretty much disappeared now but I remember a time when people speaking out against firing were roundly dismissed as not having a clue what they were talking about.


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## feisty_filly (10 January 2011)

each to there own in my oppinion, if you can find a good barefoot trimmer and thats your prefrance then use them. 
personaly someone that has no formal qualifications and could well have just picked up a rasp and decided to trim has no place trimming my horses feet. 
i think its increadibly cheeky that they have the nerve to charge twice as much as a qualified farrier as well as i cant see or understand how you are getting more for your money. 

but as i said each to there own.


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## Oberon (10 January 2011)

horserider said:



			Me too, I'm out.
But for the record, I'm very pro keeping mine, when possible, unshod. Currently working with a 4 year old that had shoes on at 3, to stay au natural as to shoe her lovely feet is a crime.
 Just can't be doing with extremists. The parellites of the hoof world.
		
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I haven't seen any of the pro barefooters calling names or being aggressive. I am not sure it is justified or fair to come out insults like militants or comparing to parelli fanatics.

I thought we were having a balanced debate. Getting huffy and name calling is bad form really.


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## Jesstickle (10 January 2011)

Oberon said:



			I haven't seen any of the pro barefooters calling names or being aggressive. I am not sure it is justified or fair to come out insults like militants or comparing to parelli fanatics.

I thought we were having a balanced debate. Getting huffy and name calling is bad form really.
		
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go back and look at brucea's original post if you want to know what put my back up to begin with.


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## TGM (10 January 2011)

brucea said:



			And then we slap shoes on which change the sole from being in a supporting role to being in a bridging role. Can that be a good idea?







Does this seem like a brilliant idea??? Maybe this is much better?







The more I think about it, the less sense peripheral loading makes.
		
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Diagrams like this do make me laugh!  Showing the shod foot on a hard surface, yet the unshod foot on a soft giving surface.  It is not exactly comparing like with like, is it!


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## Oberon (10 January 2011)

jesstickle said:



			go back and look at brucea's original post if you want to know what put my back up to begin with.
		
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Tbh I'm not concerned with what's got your back up. If Brucea upset you then it's between you and him. Please don't call the rest of us names because of it. Being marginalised gets my back up.


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## TPO (10 January 2011)

LucyPriory said:



			Hotty Italian not surprisingly has stayed in Italy, but we might wheel him over to the UK sometime this year so you can drool then!   And don't tell him I told you because he is very young as well.  (or am I showing my age?!)

If you want to speak to one of the many farriers who have converted then contact Nick Hill of Clover Rose Equine.  http://www.cloverroseequine.co.uk/

Mind you he is very very busy and travels all over Europe spreading the 'plague' (literally because he gave me the worst bout of flu I've ever had just before christmas when I met with him and his wife post a trip to Spain)

Lovely lovely guy, very modest too.
		
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Not read past this post but just wanted to say I have Nick coming out on Wednesday. 

I've really struggled with farriers over the years. I always make appointments to be there and yet last time he text saying he hadn't arranged his day properly so just done my horse while he was at the yard earlier. Not amused! I was having the shoes pulled and when I got there the feet were not trimmed correctly by any standards. I've also had a farrier (who was working under vet's supervision) lame a horse because he altered her hoof balance so much (toe long, no heel). I have pictures but nothing to confirm it was him the shod her on that date. I pulled her shoes that same day and she needed box rest until another farrier could come out.  

I had an "Equine Podiatrist" out to a QH with navicular as I was clutching at straws. The trimmer was awful; needless to say she was only out once and QH went into remedial shoes. Two liveries on the yard I've moved to have also used the same trimmer and had bad experiences. 

This put me off "barefoot" and I went back to my beliefs that not every horse could cope barefoot or do every/any activity without shoes and if you have a good farrier shoes are fine.

It's only recently that I've started to question shoeing horses. I've bought the Jaime Jackson & Pete Ramey books, Feet First and a few other texts. I've also re-read other books I have with "barefoot" in mind and taken different things from them than I had originally because of the new information I have taken on board. I'm hopeful to learn a lot more during Nick's visits. 

Maybe other people are really lucky but I've always struggled to find a farrier who would (could?) balance a foot correctly. Maybe if I was close to the likes of Hayden Price I'd stick with shoeing but I don't so I'm trying to do the best I can for my horses. I don't ever want to lose another due to navicular.


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## LucyPriory (10 January 2011)

Nick's a really good bloke, be sure to ask him lots of questions and get him to show you what he is doing and why.

Likes good coffee


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## amandap (10 January 2011)

TPO said:



			It's only recently that I've started to question shoeing horses. I've bought the Jaime Jackson & Pete Ramey books, Feet First and a few other texts. I've also re-read other books I have with "barefoot" in mind and taken different things from them than I had originally because of the new information I have taken on board. I'm hopeful to learn a lot more during Nick's visits.
		
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When I got back into horses about 10years ago and was searching the net, Jaime Jackson was the first horseperson I came across that made total sense to me. Over the years since I have wavered trying to justify other approaches but I always come back to his work.


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## JVB (10 January 2011)

Having had good farriers for a long time, I have now changed to a good barefoot trimmer and I am more impressed with the trim than I have ever been with a farriers trim.

I was fed up with 5 minute trims from the farrier, barefoot trimmer spends 40 mins with each horse and is interested in their feed, routine and history so much more so than the farrier.

Very pleased I made the change.


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## Cadfael&Coffee (10 January 2011)

Theres a lot of conflicting info on this thread about the amount of time and what exact training barefoot trimmers actually go through before they're regarded as fully qualified?


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## amandap (10 January 2011)

quirky said:



			Taken from a 'Professional Barefoot Trimmers' website.

20th December 2009 - I graduated successfully from the AANHCP foundation course in Natural Hoof Care

5th December 2009 - In Texas attending the AANHCP Foundation course in Natural Hoof Care, being trained by founder of the AANHCP Jaime Jackson.
		
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Just to go back to this point about training in 19 days. The quote states they graduated from the _foundation_ course. They have not completed their training by a long shot, only the first part.


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## amandap (10 January 2011)

CadfaelSportHorse said:



			Theres a lot of conflicting info on this thread about the amount of time and what exact training barefoot trimmers actually go through before they're regarded as fully qualified?
		
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I think one reason is because the training for barefoot isn't standardized across all organizations who run training programmes. In the UK the UKNHCP (born of the AANHCP) and the EPA (Born of Equine Podiatry) have been working together for a few years now to draw up a standard.
If you google all the abbreviations you will come up with link to training. Here's the American Association for the Advancement of Natural Horse care Practices page. http://isnhcp.net/NHC-Training.html  The ISNHCP is the Training and research arm of the AANHCP.


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## TPO (10 January 2011)

Finally read all the posts!

I can see both sides; you don't have to look far back on my previous posts to see I did not believe every horse (with correct management) could go barefoot and the trimmer I used reinforced that idea. 

I had the trimmer out to a QH that was bought unvetted and had navicular. I'd tried everything and some of the posts I'd read on here lead me to barefoot so I called out an EP and it was a disaster. I changed the mare's diet (was advised to feed Hi-Fi lite, mag ox and seaweed), walked in hand, bought the boots and pads yet my mare was still uncomfortable. I changed vet practice and they said to remedially shoe her with wedged eggbars. Straight away she was more comfortable and field sound. This just confirmed to me that barefoot was nonsense.

At the end of June 2010 I lost my horse of a lifetime, my everything revolved around her, because she had advanced navicular (TB this time). Again you can read my previous posts if interested. She'd only ever been shod in front since July 2007 when I got her and had been shod from x-rays. I'd taken her to Dick Vet Hospital in March as I'd moved yards (after losing QH Nov 2009) and new YO insisted that TB mare had Kissing Spine and her vet (mine didn't cover that region) also said KS and a spavin so referred her. The Vet Hospital passed her as sound, definitely not kissing spine or underlying lameness issues (like a spavin). 

At that point I moved back to my rented place and got a companion. The hard ground arrived in the May/June and she began to step slightly short so I box rested/cold hosed (there was no heat or swelling). When she didn't improve I called my equine vets who nerve blocked on the Friday and confirmed palmar foot pain. I took her to their clinic on the following Tuesday for full work up and it was "advanced navicular" which the vet rated as 8/10 and it was his opinion that it would have been delevoping for at least 9mths (so vet hospital should have picked up on it?). 

I made the unbelievably painful decision to have her pts there and then as I didn't want her to suffer for a second longer. I'd been through it all with the QH and believed myself to be fairly clued up on navicular having read everything I could find on it, mainly vet texts and papers, and spoken with my vets extensively on numerous occassions. I did ask the vet about options (denerving, injecting the tendon or buting her up and leaving things to degenerate without her feeling it were the only ones I was offered). I specifically asked about barefoot and was told barefoot would not help, her feet were balanced so it wasn't a case of a bad farrier/shoeing and going barefoot would not alter/help/make any positive difference.

You've no idea how much I wish I didn't make that call and had just taken her home that day. If I did no doubt I would have posted on here and just maybe one of the "barefoot taliban/vultures" would have replied and given Tanith an option and a chance. 

As much as I enjoy reading and learning it's devastating reading books by the like of Jaime Jackson and Pete Ramey because they state in black and white that "navicular" can be "cured"/managed and they have never yet had a horse with navic disease/syndrome not come sound. That could have been Tanith but I can't go back in time and have the small comfort of making the decision for T's welfare, not wishing her to suffer at all, and putting that above the huge gaping hole losing her has left. 

You can see in my previous posts that I put CPTrayes on "User Ignore" as I was fed up with what I perceived to be self righteous ranting and using barefoot as a cure all for every problem posted about. When I was looking for yet another whip to flog myself with over losing T I posted in Veterinary asking of barefoot really was a cure for navic (CPTrayes off UI by then!). This lead to me buying the books and reading the websites so that I could make an informed decision. 

The more I read the more I got why CPTrayes and the "Barefoot Taliban" get so frustrated and are so insistant. Having read the nonveterinary books I can see a whole different side to how anatomy works, the effects of shoeing and horse management. I get where the passion (for want of a better word) to promote barefoot, when it's managed correctly, comes from. Now, to me, it makes no sense to shoe for reasons others have posted about more eloquently than I could. I would also like to take this opportunity to publically apologise to CPTrayes.

Those who are as vehemently against barefoot/trimmers as I was will no doubt dismiss this post as being overly emotive and not from an objective viewpoint which is fair enough but if just one person reads JJ/PR's books off the back of this and perhaps gives their horse the chance I didn't manage to give mine then that's enough. I'm really not into this baring of the soul on a public forum; you never know who is reading (although in my case I know a few RL people who read everything I write) but I just wouldn't wish the feeling I have over losing T on my worst enemy so if my ramblings help just one person/horse then I'm willing to take the back lash from it.


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## Jesstickle (10 January 2011)

Oberon said:



			Tbh I'm not concerned with what's got your back up. If Brucea upset you then it's between you and him. Please don't call the rest of us names because of it. Being marginalised gets my back up.
		
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but you said you hadn't seen anything said which was rude or aggressive so I pointed you to something which was. If you read what I've said I've been perfectly nice. I have asked questions, which some very helpful people have answered and I've said that I'm open minded about both approaches on multiple occasions. I have my doubts about dry lotting a horse for the whole of its life but that is just my opinion.

You implied it was somehow my fault that there was any bad feeling. I merely pointed you to a post that showed it wasn't started by me. And if you don't want to be marginalised don't refer to yourself as the barefoot taliban.


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## LucyPriory (10 January 2011)

TPO

Big hugs.

You seem to be on the journey which most of us 'barefoot taliban' have been on.

Good luck and best wishes and don't hesitate to question question question.


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## cptrayes (10 January 2011)

TPO said:



			Finally read all the posts!

You've no idea how much I wish I didn't make that call and had just taken her home that day. If I did no doubt I would have posted on here and just maybe one of the "barefoot taliban/vultures" would have replied and given Tanith an option and a chance.
		
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I do. And it's why I continue to post in spite of people who can sometimes be a bit hostile   I really, really appreciate your post. I am only sorry that you had the wrong advice from people who didn't understand how your horse could have been helped.

You deserve congratulations for opening your mind to new ideas, respect for having done your research, and sympathy for having to live with the regrets of acting on bad advice given by experts you paid to be right.

Welcome to the club  !


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## cptrayes (10 January 2011)

TGM said:



			Diagrams like this do make me laugh!  Showing the shod foot on a hard surface, yet the unshod foot on a soft giving surface.  It is not exactly comparing like with like, is it!

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You are quite correct, the diagram is flawed and I am sure Bruce will change it. But if you look at hoofprints of shod versus barefoot horses in snow or firm mud, you will easily see how much more weight, in general, is distributed across the sole by a barefoot  horse than a shod one. And if you stand a barefoot horse on tarmac or concrete, it will be usually standing on its leg bones, connected directly through to the floor via its frog and digital cushion. A shod horse is, unless it has a prolapsed frog, suspended from the laminae of the foot, a purpose for which  they were not genetically designed. 

There is some debate about whether there needs to be frog contact 100% of the time but let us not get confused by that. There is  a total consensus of opinion that the frog should be weight bearing a substantial part of the time when the horse is in movement.

Someone else criticized the diagram on the basis of it not showing what happens when a horse stands on stones. I would answer that by asking how you think half an inch of shoe protects the sole from a one inch big stone? I'm probably not alone in having a shod horse stand so hard on a stone that it punched a hole right through its sole. Barefoot horses can manage stones  with no trouble at all because of their thick, healthy soles. My hunter is regularly required to gallop through gateways lined with stone and canter for lengthy stretches up farm tracks made of broken up brick and concrete.

Horses that can't be given the optimum conditions to produce sole that good can usually be found suitable boots which can be taken off when the horse is not being ridden on stones.

The diagram is flawed, yes, but the story it tells is correct. Horses were not designed to hang their weight off their laminae. We get away with it with most of them, but heaven only knows how.  The mystery to me is not why some horses are lamed by shoes, but how it is that the majority are not!


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## mrdarcy (10 January 2011)

CadfaelSportHorse said:



			Theres a lot of conflicting info on this thread about the amount of time and what exact training barefoot trimmers actually go through before they're regarded as fully qualified?
		
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I trained and qualified with the AANHCP. My initial training was with Jaime Jackson in the US. Over the following 12 months I travelled to four different countries, trained with many different people, three of whom are ex-farriers of many years experience. I then had to pass a very exacting field exam and a detailed written exam before being recommended for Certification by Jaime Jackson himself. Even though I am now a Certified Practitioner to remain as such I have to do CPD for the next two years and beyond.

The AANHCP, UKNHCP and EPAUK all worked with LANTRA to come up with approved National Occupational Standards to which all three training programmes now adhere to and in most cases exceed.

Yes there are poor trimmers out there and poor farriers. When choosing a barefoot trimmer always go with one that is a member of the one the big organisations - that way you can find out exactly what training they have done and if anything did go wrong you have an organisation to turn to for resolution.


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## pines of rome (10 January 2011)

Well, i have a DAEP for my horse, which has navicular and when he was shod it was painful for him the only response i got from the farrier was he is a T.B they have crap feet.
 I asked about going barefoot and he said you havn,t got a chance with that horse, so i researched for myself and found a trimmer, it wasn,t easy to start with he had to have wraps on for 12 weeks, he had a usability score of 2.5.
 We now have a score of 5 and his feet are strong and totally different in appearance to the weak feet we started with and i have to say they look a lot better than any farrier trimmed horses at our yard.
 As my horse has navicular i still have a way to go but he is improving my trimmer is passionate about his work always on time, always answers texts e mails etc, which i have yet to find in farriers.


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## Jesstickle (10 January 2011)

TPO I'm really sorry to hear about your story. 

Please don't beat yourself up as you made a very brave and difficult decision based on what you knew at the time. Your girl didn't suffer and you should be proud of that. 

The fact that you have learned a vast amount since making that choice is wonderful but please don't dwell on the course of action you took. We are all human and have to make our choices using the information which is in front of us.  Hindsight is a marvellous thing isn't it? I can't imagine how difficult it must have been to make that decision but I think that your heart was in completely the right place and you did nothing wrong. 

Big hugs


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## Cadfael&Coffee (10 January 2011)

mrdarcy said:



			I trained and qualified with the AANHCP. My initial training was with Jaime Jackson in the US. Over the following 12 months I travelled to four different countries, trained with many different people, three of whom are ex-farriers of many years experience. I then had to pass a very exacting field exam and a detailed written exam before being recommended for Certification by Jaime Jackson himself. Even though I am now a Certified Practitioner to remain as such I have to do CPD for the next two years and beyond.

The AANHCP, UKNHCP and EPAUK all worked with LANTRA to come up with approved National Occupational Standards to which all three training programmes now adhere to and in most cases exceed.

Yes there are poor trimmers out there and poor farriers. When choosing a barefoot trimmer always go with one that is a member of the one the big organisations - that way you can find out exactly what training they have done and if anything did go wrong you have an organisation to turn to for resolution.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks!! Makes much more sense.

I'm happy with my farrier ATM, and intend to keep him til he retires cause I've just left an awful one, but if something happens to him (god forbid) I'll keep an open mind lol!!


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## quirky (10 January 2011)

amandap said:



			Just to go back to this point about training in 19 days. The quote states they graduated from the _foundation_ course. They have not completed their training by a long shot, only the first part. 

Click to expand...

Ok, so if they haven't completed their training, how have they managed to set themselves up as a 'Professional'?
Surely they should make their clients aware of the fact that they have followed a 15 day course and are now doing on the job training.

It's like a farriers apprentice, they are going round supervised, so you know they haven't qualified. I believe it is only their 3rd year that they are allowed to shoe unsupervised, but I am sure I will stand corrected.

A BP can rock up and you wouldn't have the slightest idea that they'd just landed from a 15 day course unless you specifically asked them.


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## brucea (10 January 2011)

TPO - big hug and thanks for opening up like that. 

I knew one day I would regret coming up with the phrase "Barefoot Taliban" 

jestickle - if you go back and read that firs paragraph from the point of view of someone who has spent the last 4 years transitioning thier horses from shoes, and seeing the tremendous changes that shoes wrought and their removal brought....yes, the wording is clumsy and could have been better and I apologise for that - but the overall message is the same. Shoes cause long term harm, and I can't apologise for that message.

I personally think we're at a very interesting phase of the whole horse world where we are questioning many things that we just accepted years ago - and folks are just no longer prepared to believe the "experts"

Look for instance at the tremendous work being done by Nic Barker at Rockley  - how many horses go through her rehab yard that have been written off as "can't be repaired" and they have all had the full vet and farrier approach to addressing navicular before they arrived there! 

What Nic does is not rocket science - it's diet right, shoes off, trim right, movement and support. And it works. A major drawback for owners I guess is that it is not really accepted as an approach that insurers will fully pay up for - despite the mounting evidence that "this works and really that traditional approach doesn't work that well"

Yes - the diagram is misleading to a point. It's there to make the point about loading - on a solid concrete surface there will be solely peripheral loading on a shod hoof, and in a barefoot hoof the load will be shared between the frog and the walls. On a yielding surface the effects of shoes are more around the prevention of the hoof's abilty to fully expand and contract, and the lifting of the frog out of load bearing ground contact. 

It's hard to do diagramatically. Sadly I am about as artistically talented as your average railway sleeper - so it takes me a time to sort these diagrams! I will do though. 

P.S. I'll just post this picture again.  6 months after shoes off, shoe correctly aligned with where it would be. This is almost 4 years old now.


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## Andalucian (10 January 2011)

TPO, thanks for you frank and painful story.  I am a DAEP, barefoot trimmer.  I became one after losing my first horse of a lifetime through similar circumstances.

I won't enter this debate because I've done it so many times before.  When they need to customers find me and I help them with their horses, for me its a healing process in the name of the horse I lost after many shoeing packages failed miserably.

We all have a journey, those who never suffer lameness issues with their horses are very lucky, those who do, just keep asking questions and using your instincts on behalf of your horse's welfare.  Never just hand over their care totally to others, you are the one responsible for them in the end, and they need you to be on their side.


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## Tinypony (10 January 2011)

quirky said:



			Ok, so if they haven't completed their training, how have they managed to set themselves up as a 'Professional'?
Surely they should make their clients aware of the fact that they have followed a 15 day course and are now doing on the job training.

It's like a farriers apprentice, they are going round supervised, so you know they haven't qualified. I believe it is only their 3rd year that they are allowed to shoe unsupervised, but I am sure I will stand corrected.

A BP can rock up and you wouldn't have the slightest idea that they'd just landed from a 15 day course unless you specifically asked them.
		
Click to expand...

Anybody can mislead the public about their qualifications and accreditation.  There was a "farrier" in operation near me a while back who had never completed his apprenticeship.  (It was all dealt with).  And wasn't there a vet some time ago who had never qualified either?  Oh, and I belive a local Bowen therapist turned out to not be as well.  Mr Darcy has given excellent advice above for anyone who wants to check the qualifications of a barefoot trimmer before using them.


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## LucyPriory (10 January 2011)

Re qualifications

I agree and get references

and um um - what about all the qualified professional (in any trade) who practice poorly?

In a previous decade I was 'blessed' to work exclusively with graduates in a specific high end profession.  Never again.  Put me off for life.


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## quirky (10 January 2011)

amandap said:



			Just to go back to this point about training in 19 days. The quote states they graduated from the _foundation_ course. They have not completed their training by a long shot, only the first part. 

Click to expand...




LucyPriory said:



			Re qualifications

I agree and get references

and um um - what about all the qualified professional (in any trade) who practice poorly?

In a previous decade I was 'blessed' to work exclusively with graduates in a specific high end profession.  Never again.  Put me off for life.
		
Click to expand...

This is constructive criticism  and I think any of you BP's on here need to suggest a change is made.

Firstly, google 'Qualified Farrier' and top of the pile is The Farriers Registration Council 

Secondly, google qualified barefoot practitioners and you get the UKNHCP link , no mention of the other one .

Then looking at the 2 websites I've mentioned, go to the 'find a xxx' section.

On the farriers website, it tells you when they joined the register.
The UKNHCP site gives you no such information.

I think it is useful to know when somebody has qualified, especially as it appears after a 15 day course you can call yourself qualified.

What about the other BP website, are they a lesser talent because they don't come up on a Google search?


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## Jesstickle (10 January 2011)

brucea said:



			I knew one day I would regret coming up with the phrase "Barefoot Taliban" 


P.S. I'll just post this picture again.  6 months after shoes off, shoe correctly aligned with where it would be. This is almost 4 years old now.






Click to expand...


I actually think the Barefoot Taliban is quite funny but when people are trying to be open minded, which I think most of us with shod horses were (or in my case unshod horses), it isn't terribly diplomatic to say we're causing suffering. However, water under the bridge.

I am intrigued by your picture  Is that the shoe which came off before you went unshod? You really can see how the heels have spread from that. I think that's the most compelling piece of evidence for not shoeing I have seen so far on this thread in honesty.


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## amandap (10 January 2011)

Glad you posted the correct and current situation about organizations working together to establish giuidelines MrDarcy. I'm way behind the times. 

I think the peer reviews that barefoot organizations mentioned use is a really important aspect of keeping standards up.

One only has to think of the Harold Shipman etc. cases to know that a recognized quallification, professional or not is no guarantee of the ethics or capability of the person offering a service.
This is a reason that I think owners should learn more, do their research so they can make more informed choices.

Hugs from me too TPO. A very moving post.


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## brucea (10 January 2011)

Yes - that is the last shoe that came off that hoof 6 months before the picture was taken - the underside has black marker pen on it so I don't mix them up.

One of the reasons I took the shoes off were that his feet were terribly contracted and he had constant central sulcus infections - we needed to clean them out every couple of days with gauze and povidone. 

What shocked me was how quickly, and by how much, they decontracted. And how much development there was at the back of the foot. Odly enough it was while all that decontraction was going on that he had several  abscesses - only having had one before on the previous 6 years and that was the result of a bruise from a trapped stone!

He too had some navicular changes, but there were so many other issues in those fronts that the navicular changes were not the biggest contributor to his to his discomfort.

I'm glad I thought to keep and mark the shoes - it has been interesting watching the changes. 

He was "well shod" by a really good farrier who bred TB's of his own and could handle a nervous horse well- and the farrier kept a close eye on the hoof development in the first year, even though I had moved to a trimmer. He was surprised at the decontraction too.

This horse is now self maintaining - I only clean up the roll every couple of months really. He's is rock stomping now, but at certain times of the year I have had to use boots - but the rest of the time he has the benefit of bare feet in contact with the ground.

But the biggest surprise for me in the whole "let's go barefoot experiment" has been the temperament changes in the horse - he was always spooky and defensive, over reacting, he always seemed to be uncomfortable behind the saddle (would buck if you put your hand there), and always had an ears-back-teeth-bared attitude to life - very quickly he calmed, became much happier overall and all the varied aches and pains he had seemed to get better. 

How much of that was the shoes being off and allowing the changes to the hoof to take place, and how much was the whole change of diet that came along with the change to barefoot I honestly really don't know.


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## amandap (10 January 2011)

Have you still got that shoe brucea?  I for one would love to see that hoof now especially compared to the shoe.



brucea said:



			How much of that was the shoes being off and allowing the changes to the hoof to take place, and how much was the whole change of diet that came along with the change to barefoot I honestly really don't know.
		
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My gut feeling is both. I am also begining to believe that many reluctancies (if that's a word) in horses might be due in part to soreness in their hooves, especially when asked to change gait or on corners. This is just a feeling, I don't have experience of many horses.


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## brucea (10 January 2011)

I still have it - I'll get another pic.


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## Hippona (10 January 2011)

thatsmygirl said:



			Now show a pic on stoney ground with stones digging into their soles and not so picture perfect
		
Click to expand...

....but as nature and evolution intended

I'm not barefoot preacher.....but out of 3 horses only one of them has a front set, and I'm considering having those taken off too. My FARRIER advises me- and he says if a horse is happy without shoes- then don't shoe. He will advise on weight/feeding etc and he has quite happily explained laminitis and its causes/outcomes to my novice husband. He is a highly respected remedial farrier- and a lovely person to boot. He cares about the horses and as far as he is concerned- it whats best for the horse, not his pocket. 

My previous horse had odd shaped feet and would go long in the toe if not in NB shoes. His feet were in a mess until my farrier sorted him out. This horse was unable to go shoeless - so shod he was. As long as whoever is looking after your horses feet is qualified to do so and you are happy with the work carried out....fine. I'm happy for you......theres not a 'one for all' solution.
 My friends horses are clipped, rugged, shod and have hard feed. Mine are all hairy ( even the arab) unshod and live off hay and chaff.....horses for courses, as it were.


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## Jesstickle (10 January 2011)

CuriousYellow said:



			....but as nature and evolution intended

Click to expand...

CurriousYellow, I am not picking on you particularly, many others have said this too but....

why does everyone think evolution is such a perfect designer? The absolute point of evolution is that the results are often far from perfect and are not 'designed' at all. Just because something has evolved one way does not mean that it is the ideal. Merely that it does well enough to allow survival, it is the best out there. There is nothing to say that what has evolved can not be improved, sometimes maybe even by human intervention. I am not particularly saying this is the case for the unshod horse but it is absolutely something we should all bear in mind when using this argument to justify our thinking. 

Sorry, it's been bugging me for a while so thought I'd just put it out there


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## amandap (10 January 2011)

Oh brucea, thankyou so very much. I'm excited, lol, what a freak I am! 

Jesstickle evolution has weeded out those 'designs' not fit for their current environments so the designs out there now are the result of adaption to changes in the environment amongst other things.
This process happens slowly in the main but humans have come along, changed many environments on this planet in a very short space of time. We have changed or destroyed habitat and we have plucked animals from their environments and moulded them for our own use. We may have changed some animals characteristics but as far as horses are concerned we haven't changed any evolutionary adaptions such as what they are built for, how they are wired, what they need to remain fit and healthy etc. 

So for me to ignore how horses are designed to live is to be constantly fighting against their bodies and natures and the horses are the ones having to make most of the compromises in my view. At least we can try and meet them half way.

We know better than Nature at our and the worlds cost.


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## Jesstickle (10 January 2011)

Well you are not 'designed' to live past 40 or so but you will. Your horse will outlive it's wild relatives as will your dog if you have one. We meddle for good and for bad.  I am not 'designed' to wear shoes or clothing but I'm glad I do. If you are going to say it is wrong to shoe horses, it is also wrong to medicate them when they are ill. 

Anyway, I really wasn't talking about horses. Just about peoples misconceptions of evolution
in general


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## criso (10 January 2011)

I wasn't going to post as these discussions do have a habit of  going round in circles but this comment from TPO struck a chord.



TPO said:



			....ramblings help just one person/horse then I'm willing to take the back lash from it.
		
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I don't remember who first mentioned barefoot on the post where I asked about other experiences of soft tissue damage in the feet; but it planted a seed.
At the time I dismissed it because my farrier and vet had explained that while they were not anti barefoot, TBs esp ex racers like Frankie couldn't go barefoot, their breeding and foot conformation would not allow it.

However I didn't kept coming back to the barefoot debate sometimes getting very frustrated when threads degenerated into name calling and feeling like I didn't want to let either side near my horse.

Jan last year he went downhill to the point he wouldn't stay field sound and I was not prepared to keep him in for 23 hours so I could ride him for one so as a last chance he went off down to Rockley.
This is him.

http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2010/09/what-difference.html

So if just one person reads this and it helps just one horse then maybe these discussion are useful.

Getting back to the original debate my position is that I don't like the idea of unregulated, unqualified people setting themselves up as professionals (who would) but would use a trimmer once I had satisfied myself  they knew what they were doing probably by getting recommendations and going and seeing their work. But paper qualifications wouldn't necessarily be the issue.

I have had appalling experiences with farriers and none of the ones I have used (4) or seen shoeing  on the yards I have been on, have watched the horse move.  I've dragged horses up and down in front of them to their evident exasperation. Not one has wanted to talk about diet even when I asked though I think they have shares in Keratex and Kevin Bacon.

I have also seen what happens when the owners are not around, on busy yards it is quite common for horses to be taken down (often 2 at a time)to be shod by the farrier and are unsupervised.  

My old farrier trims my horse but that's all he does, I take responsibility for diet and exercise having seen what worked for him at Rockley.  I watch him move and sometimes film him to check his landing and take pictures of his feet to compare month to month.

I think whoever it was that said farriers are missing a trick was right and if people are moving to trimmers from farriers maybe the question to ask is "what's going wrong that people feel the need to turn elsewhere?".


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## shadowboy (10 January 2011)

One of my old farriers sais to me that his client base was dissapearing due to those 'bloody trimmers' and I thought it may well be that the attitude can put people off farriers trimming their horses. I have used both- I have had awful farriers - farriers that I don't know how they have managed to stay in business- and I have had good farriers- I currently have a new one since I moved who has done one trim so far-but I'm not 100% convinced- it took him less than 15min to trim and he spent the whole time chatting- didnt aske about how he has been/ask to see him being moved etc I asked the farrier numerous questions and his answers were very lacking in enthusiasm I felt cheated out of my £25. I will get him back once more- partly as i've found it really hard to find a farrier willing to come over for just one trim and partly as I like to give someone the benefit of the doubt when they come recommended. I have also had a really good EP- who took 2 years to train- and really sorted out my boy's feet but she moved- a farrier recemmended by others on this forum was impressed by his feet- so I know she did a good job. I think you have to use your gut instinct as well as looking at 4 years worth of qualifications, you can pass the exams but it doesnt always mean you are good at your job!


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## brucea (10 January 2011)

I've had four farriers work on my horses. Two of them were OK at first, but both became unreliable and I was fed up sitting around wiht a group of other owners at the yard waiting 4 hours for them to turn up.

One was absolutely awful, abusive to horses, and abusive to owners, but particularly abusive in an unacceptable way to lady owners. 'nuff said. His work was extremely poor too.

The last farrier we had before we went barefoot was brilliant, and while he had the odd time he didn't turn up because of breakdowns or injuries, he kept us informed and was great with the horses. He raised TB's himself so had a good attitude to the horses. But he was traditional in his views, and really wouldn't have asked about diet.

Fariers have to look to themselves if people are using trimmers. As the previous poster asked "why are people changing and shopping elsewhere?" I know some excellent farriers who are wholeheartedly embracing the barefoot movement, but there are those, like Giles,  who will always see it as a threat and do not engage in constructive dialog, only ridicule and diatribe.

Remember surgeons were very opposed to anaesthetics whern they were first available, and patients suffered the agonies of amputations without anaesthesia for 20-30 years before anaesthaesia bcame accepted. The reason? Surgeons trained to be so fast they could amputate a leg in 30 seconds, and anaesthesia was seen to diminish their accomplishments. 

Times change, what was acceptable (caning children for example) is no longer acceptable, so farriers (and teachers) have to finds new ways of doing their work.


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## Kallibear (10 January 2011)

These thread always turn out the same - initial digging at each other then the very pro-shoes, antibarefoot brigage wade in with sarcastic comments (many of whom seem to have taken the potential lack of trimmers training personally?) before sensible people take opposing veiws and eventually reconsile, make friends and agree to disagree. How nice 

I am pro-barefoot for the reason others have mentioned before: mainly that ANY horse can manage barefoot given the correct management, work and diet. 

However, like Jesstickle mentioned, I am also willing to conceed that there are some extreme cases where those requirement are so extreme that's it not really worth it. I have a horse who is grass sensitive and becomes less confident on stoney ground if he gets too much grass. However it's manageable with restircted grazing and plenty of work. BUT, if he was an more extreme example I wouldn't be able to maintain him barefoot with my facilities. So: would I sell him to someone who could or would I shoe him?

I'm afraid I would shoe him  I would do my absolute best to keep him as much as suited him but it wouldn't be quite enough to keep him working hard barefoot. 

BUT I would get a GOOD farrier and I have enough knowledge to know if his feet were deteriorating because of shoes.

And I'm also massively pro-barefoot for sorting out problems, most of which are caused by poor shoeing, or in fact ANY shoeing in the first place. I see so many contracted heels, rubbish frogs and thin soles and it's heartbreaking, knowing that 6 months out of shoes with the correct diet and work (with boots if needs be) would fix those feet. And it's even worse when so so many owners don't even _realise _their horses feet are looking poor: as long as they're not cracked and they hold shoes for 6 weeks they're happy  Then once the feet are better they could have shoes back on (if they needed them) and start from a healthy base.

A good farrier doing a good job shoeing a horse should do no damage to the feet. They won't be as strong or tough as a barefoot hoof but they shouldn't have any pathologies. I know horses who've been shod for years and years but are sound from the word go once the shoes come off: that's a good farrier doing a good job.

The problem there is finding a GOOD farrier. Barefoot horses will usually correct themselves is their trim isn't quite right - poor balance or overly long (or short) heels with be grown out by the horse (who always knows best!) within a couple of weeks (often days) with no long term affects. Only an idiot would keep forcing those incorrect trims on the horse once it's made it clear it doesn't want them! And even if they do: it grows out quickly.

But shoeing perfectly FOR THAT PARTICULAR HORSE is a serious skill and one many farrier aren't quite up to. After all, unless you allow the horse to show natural wear (by being barefoot!) how do you know what their ideal balance is? A heel a couple of mm too long on one side (for the horse - it may be asthetically perfect) won't have the chance to grow out and correct and they're stuck like that for weeks. It starts to damage the legs and internal structures of the feet. If they're lucky the farrier may notice isn't not quite right and correct it next shoeing. Or more likely they're just do the same job again - after all it's only a couple of mm.......

Or the farrier leave the heels a little too long for the horses' needs - only a couple of mm mind, but still a little long. The heels are then forced to grown in and forwards by the shoe (in a barefoot they'd grow outwards and down) and the next shoeing it's harder for the farrier to get the heels back. 6 months down the line you have a horse with underrun, contracted heels and on the road to navicular, and it's bloody difficult to fix it with shoes from there.

I know some very good farriers but they are not magicial and I would rather trust my horse to grow the correct feet he needs than have a human force them.

And that's why I believe the trim is rather irrelevant. A good farrier will do the same trim as a good barefoot trimmer. And it's quite likely that neither will be absolutely perfect for that horses needs and it'll wear then to how they need within days.

Sure, chopping random bit off the foot (and that seems to be much more common with farriers that barfoot trimmers!: I've had quite a few chop the frogs off and par off their sole callous'  ) won't help the horse but a basic simple trim really isn't rocket science and leave the rest to the horse: it's our job to provide the management and exercise they need to grow a good foot.

And that's the edge I feel a barefoot trimmer has over farrier: they provide help and advice on HOW to provide that correct management, something a farrier rarely does (most could if they felt it was important). From experience most farrier will just suggest shoeing the horse if the bog-standard horse-management doesn't work for that particular horse 

(p.s I had the big hunter shod a couple of months ago for a set as she needed studs - the farrier (who is actually very good and does an excellent barefoot trim) was appalled at putting shoe on her  )

Oh, and I prefer the term 'barefoot'. The word 'unshod' to me suggests that 'shod' is the natural state for a horse


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## Kallibear (10 January 2011)

And another decontracted foot picture - sadly not with a shoe, but two comparisions, just a couple of weeks apart


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## MissMistletoe (10 January 2011)

My horse and pony have been barefoot for years now and I have always used farriers as Id not looked in depth at the barefoot management and the availability of barefoot trimmers.

Ive recently moved house and had to leave my old farrier behind and use a new one. The old farrier habitually left too much on at their heels which I never questioned as I felt that he would rather chat about other things. The new farrier, one of the best in the county, did a fab job balance wise, but he rasped off my horse's toe callous and left her footy. She has never been shod and I have never known her to be footy. I had to change.

Now use an EPAUK trimmer and am very pleased so far.


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## cptrayes (10 January 2011)

And I have the opposite picture to Bruce's, a shoe which came off my hunter, which three months later could not be put back on because the ring of nail holes is mostly outside the outer edge of his foot.

I'll just zip off to try and find it. Here it is

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_IaGqwoQlnmA/SgWalWdwVvI/AAAAAAAAAfQ/Zfc6qAriOnA/s1600-h/PICT0122.JPG


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## brucea (10 January 2011)

That's interesting Caroline - that's similar to what happened to Bramble, my laminitic. Over the 3 months his hoof got smaller overall. He always looked like a little pony with big feet! Now he looks in proportion.

But I think like yours the back of the foot actually did expand - it was more a change of shape of the quarters and toe. 

I'm pleased wiht this hoof - this is as it should be - a nice meaty frog hitting the ground first on a nice heel first landing. If only they were all like this one!


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## feisty_filly (11 January 2011)

jesstickle said:



			Well you are not 'designed' to live past 40 or so but you will. Your horse will outlive it's wild relatives as will your dog if you have one. We meddle for good and for bad.  I am not 'designed' to wear shoes or clothing but I'm glad I do. If you are going to say it is wrong to shoe horses, it is also wrong to medicate them when they are ill. 

Anyway, I really wasn't talking about horses. Just about peoples misconceptions of evolution
in general 

Click to expand...

thank you, this is a fantastic point to make.


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## amandap (11 January 2011)

Great pics.


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## Jesstickle (11 January 2011)

These photos are really really interesting. I could look at loads of them. Thanks for posting them everyone


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## LucyPriory (11 January 2011)

jesstickle said:



			These photos are really really interesting. I could look at loads of them. Thanks for posting them everyone 

Click to expand...

A few more .....  

http://barefoothorseblog.blogspot.com/2010/08/contracted-heels.html
http://barefoothorseblog.blogspot.com/2010/08/shoe-should-fit-foot.html
http://barefoothorseblog.blogspot.com/2010/11/hind-foot-shape-change.html
http://barefoothorseblog.blogspot.com/2010/11/crumbling-hooves.html

but I have 100's


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## cptrayes (11 January 2011)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jesstickle 
Well you are not 'designed' to live past 40 or so but you will. Your horse will outlive it's wild relatives as will your dog if you have one. We meddle for good and for bad. I am not 'designed' to wear shoes or clothing but I'm glad I do. If you are going to say it is wrong to shoe horses, it is also wrong to medicate them when they are ill.

Anyway, I really wasn't talking about horses. Just about peoples misconceptions of evolution in general.

thank you, this is a fantastic point to make. 
 End quote



Ummmmm - actually we ARE evolved to wear clothes, otherwise we would still be covered in hair like other mammals and prehistoric hominids (?) were. Early man mutated to lose his hair and wore skins to keep warm and stayed cooler in hot weather by removing them. This gave less hariy ones an evolutionary advantage which is why we now end up mostly hairless.

And no, we were not evolved to wear shoes, which is why I and thousands of people along with me, are having NHS treatment for achilles tendon problems caused by shoe imbalance, where the manufacture of shoes to fit "most people" does not suit our bone structure and movement. Ring any bells  ?

Medication helps an ill horse. Which is why it is not wrong. Shoeing is very unhelpful to many horses and unnecessary for most. And it disguises ill horses instead of treating them. Which is why I think that only those that really need shoes should have them.


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## cptrayes (11 January 2011)

jesstickle said:



			These photos are really really interesting. I could look at loads of them. Thanks for posting them everyone 

Click to expand...

Glad you like them.

TWO farriers, one newly trained and bang up to date with theory, and the other with oodles of experience, told me the owner of this foot would NEVER work barefoot because he could not stand with one foot unshod in order for the other one to be worked on. This horse is the origin of my mistrust of farriers, his imbalance in shoes was plain to anyone with eyes, yet I could not get my farriers to correct it. Take a ruler and measure from the centre of his frog to the side, then measure the other side, then multiply that difference to account for the small size of the photo and you will see what I mean. His frog was 3 inches from one side of his foot and four inches from the other. He had big feet 

Anyone who says your horse has feet too flat to go barefoot, I defy you to have a horse with flatter feet than this, they were actually convex, not concave.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_IaGqwoQlnmA/TSyfS4_TIlI/AAAAAAAAAqo/wA_arfFtrgA/s1600/17SEP006.JPG

And this is that horse eight months later practising for his first barefoot affiliated novice event  (note the takeoff and the landing - it is lumpy road planings, very common on cross country courses. The fence is about 4ft high and 6 ft wide).

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_IaGqwoQlnmA/TSyflWRub3I/AAAAAAAAAqs/gMnmC1Xj94k/s1600/Tetley1.jpg


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## Jesstickle (11 January 2011)

cptrayes said:



			Glad you like them.

 Take a ruler and measure from the centre of his frog to the side, then measure the other side, then multiply that difference to account for the small size of the photo and you will see what I mean. His frog was 3 inches from one side of his foot and four inches from the other. He had big feet 

Click to expand...

My horse has a foot where the frog is no where near in the middle. That is how he wears it himself though?

And those are some flat old feet, I will definitely grant you that! Lovely horse despite the soup plates though


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## thatsmygirl (11 January 2011)

My tb that I'm on about maybe trying bare foot with is on a diet off at lib hay, topspec comprehensive balancer with speedi beet in a handfull off hi fi mollases free. He's turned out for 12 hrs a day and full time in the summer as he hates being stabled. How you you change his diet to help? Or what diet would you put him on to?


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## Jesstickle (11 January 2011)

_Ummmmm - actually we ARE evolved to wear clothes, otherwise we would still be covered in hair like other mammals and prehistoric hominids (?) were. Early man mutated to lose his hair and wore skins to keep warm and stayed cooler in hot weather by removing them. This gave less hariy ones an evolutionary advantage which is why we now end up mostly hairless. _

I don't wish to be pedantic but we originally evolved in a very hot part of the world and evolved to be hairless so we could sweat as a cooling action (or so it is hypothesised). We went hundreds of thousands of years hairless before we decided to put on clothes. 

The point I'm trying to make is that we for whatever reason, decided to put on clothes. Worked out ok for us didn't it? We decided to put shoes on horses. They'll evolve to deal with it eventually.

Anyway, that is by the by and irrelevant to this discussion. It is interesting though. Or at least my sad self thinks it is


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## cptrayes (11 January 2011)

jesstickle said:



_Ummmmm - actually we ARE evolved to wear clothes, otherwise we would still be covered in hair like other mammals and prehistoric hominids (?) were. Early man mutated to lose his hair and wore skins to keep warm and stayed cooler in hot weather by removing them. This gave less hariy ones an evolutionary advantage which is why we now end up mostly hairless. _

I don't wish to be pedantic but we originally evolved in a very hot part of the world and evolved to be hairless so we could sweat as a cooling action (or so it is hypothesised). We went hundreds of thousands of years hairless before we decided to put on clothes. 

The point I'm trying to make is that we for whatever reason, decided to put on clothes. Worked out ok for us didn't it? We decided to put shoes on horses. They'll evolve to deal with it eventually.

Anyway, that is by the by and irrelevant to this discussion. It is interesting though. Or at least my sad self thinks it is 

Click to expand...

You HAVE to be joking? Are you SERIOUSLY suggesting that we wait the hundreds and thousands of years that it would take for evolution, severely hampered by people choosing to breed from stallions with feet which had problems with shoes but who have been successful, for horses to evolve so that they can manage shoes better?????? Why don't we just stop using the shoes? 

Lions, tigers, orangs, chimps, bonobos, meerkats ..............  (the list is endless) all live in very hot  places and have hair. It was an evolutionary advantage for man to become hairless and clothe himself when it was cold. It's the same principle that we use when we clip horses. We DID evolve to wear clothes, sorry.


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## Jesstickle (11 January 2011)

cptrayes said:



			You HAVE to be joking? Are you SERIOUSLY suggesting that we wait the hundreds and thousands of years that it would take for evolution, severely hampered by people choosing to breed from stallions with feet which had problems with shoes but who have been successful, for horses to evolve so that they can manage shoes better?????? Why don't we just stop using the shoes? 

Lions, tigers, orangs, chimps, bonobos, meerkats ..............  (the list is endless) all live in very hot  places and have hair. It was an evolutionary advantage for man to become hairless and clothe himself when it was cold. It's the same principle that we use when we clip horses. We DID evolve to wear clothes, sorry.
		
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It's selective breeding. It's why we have so many breeds of dogs,  cattle which are placid, pigs which are long and lean etc. And of course I'm not actually suggesting it. All I am saying is we use selective breeding in so many ways to suit us that it wouldn't be much of a step to imagine this situation either. 

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/01/110106164616.htm

Wearing clothes allowed us to leave Africa but we did it before we ever went anywhere cold.


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## thatsmygirl (11 January 2011)

jesstickle said:



			My horse has a foot where the frog is no where near in the middle. That is how he wears it himself though?

And those are some flat old feet, I will definitely grant you that! Lovely horse despite the soup plates though 

Click to expand...

Can't believe your still battleing on  thought you gave up


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## brucea (11 January 2011)

topspec comprehensive balancer
		
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Noooooooooooo!

Such a lot of barefoot horses have real problems wiht the TopSpec products.!


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## thatsmygirl (11 January 2011)

brucea said:



			Noooooooooooo!

Such a lot of barefoot horses have real problems wiht the TopSpec products.!
		
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So what would you recommend? All mine look great and so shiney but if I'm going to try my tb bare footed I must sort his diet first I feel.


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## Jesstickle (11 January 2011)

thatsmygirl said:



			Can't believe your still battleing on  thought you gave up
		
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I did give up but then everyone started posting really interesting photos. I'm not battling on. I was genuinely wondering about why he wears it so unevenly.


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## spookypony (11 January 2011)

brucea said:



			Noooooooooooo!

Such a lot of barefoot horses have real problems wiht the TopSpec products.!
		
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Tell me more! Mine's been on Anti-Lam for about 1/2 year now on recommendation of a nutritionist...what sort of problems?


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## brucea (11 January 2011)

Have a post on the UKNHCP forum and ask that question.

There is a basic barefoot friendly diet most of us use and then add as we need to

Unmollassed Beet
Linseed meal
Brewer's yeast
Magnesium Oxide
Mineral mix (I use the Norvite Equine Specialist one as it is balanced to soils in my area - one of the texting farms is down the road)
A sprinkle of seaweed
Rosehips etc...as they seem to need.

My big lad gets some sprouted oats - he looses weight this time of the year and while he can't tolerate cereals well, he seems to get on OK with sprouted oats.

Lots of good things as treats - all the kitchen peelings, including ginger which they love, bananas - skin and all, carrots, parsnips, fennel seeds, fennel root itself, celeriac, turnip, fenugreek seeds, the natural dried bananas or dates are much appreciated, as are almonds  - I look on these things as just providing some additional value to the diet and the so much love new tastes.  They get quite excited when they see a carrier bag!

Oh Topspec - sorry - not brilliant, two of mine were just not doing too well when I was feeding it and the laminitic got laminitis. The big lad went just quite fruit loop.

I think that the problem wiht all of these balancers is that if you feed the amount that you need to give them the recommended intake of mins, then there is far too much energy value in it for most of them. Anyway how can a balancer work if the diet has not been analysed - it;s just a marketing ploiy really to sell you an expensive enriched feed.


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## brucea (11 January 2011)

P.S. my pony got laminitis when we were feeding Anti-Lam! On the advice of a nutritionist!

That was before I fell in with that awful barefoot crowd - it all pushed me in the right direction  I'll be wearing a burkah soon.


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## spookypony (11 January 2011)

brucea said:



			P.S. my pony got laminitis when we were feeding Anti-Lam! On the advice of a nutritionist!

That was before I fell in with that awful barefoot crowd - it all pushed me in the right direction  I'll be wearing a burkah soon.
		
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Well, I go more the Sinister Cult direction (see siggy)...he's getting the Anti-Lam at the moment, because I was concerned that the hay he was getting in his pony-jail...er, no-grass paddock...was short in some essentials. He gets some MagOx on top of that. Are there two versions of Anti-Lam, a balancer and a supplement? Whatever he's getting is meant just to be the mineral supplement on a low-cal fibre base. It was someone from Metabolic Horse that suggested it. He's really the good doer to end all good doers! Time for another talk with my trimmer, I think.


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## caitlineloise (11 January 2011)

I haven't read all the post due to lack of time, but my boy is done by our farrier, and before we had him, with both owners, he was done by a farrier too, not a barefoot trimmer. His feet are in excellent condition! I suppose it depends on the breed of horse and the quality of the farrier though!  xx


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## thatsmygirl (11 January 2011)

There is only one anti lam and it's classed as a supplement not a balancer. My lad changed from anti lam to the lite after he had been lami free for a year and as advised by topspec nutritionist. And the lite is a lot cheaper


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## cptrayes (11 January 2011)

jesstickle said:



			It's selective breeding. It's why we have so many breeds of dogs,  cattle which are placid, pigs which are long and lean etc. And of course I'm not actually suggesting it. All I am saying is we use selective breeding in so many ways to suit us that it wouldn't be much of a step to imagine this situation either. 

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/01/110106164616.htm

Wearing clothes allowed us to leave Africa but we did it before we ever went anywhere cold.
		
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Not true. Desert areas in Africa are stinking hot during the day and can be very, very cold at night.
From Google on Desert Survival.

"Wide Temperature Range

Temperatures in arid areas may get as high as 55 degrees C during the day and as low as 10 degrees C during the night. The drop in temperature at night occurs rapidly and will chill a person who lacks warm clothing and is unable to move about. The cool evenings and nights are the best times to work or travel. If your plan is to rest at night, you will find a wool sweater, long underwear, and a wool stocking cap extremely helpful. "

and Wiki

"Even the Sahara is cold at night, in the winter it can go below freezing (about -5 at the lowest) - and because the air is so dry it feels a lot colder."


And if you can imagine a situation where people will choose in large numbers to breed from stallions because they have feet that do well in shoes, rather than because it wins races, is a World Cup showjumper or Totilas, then you have a more vivid imagination than I do. But even if your vision could be the future, why bother? Why not just dump the shoes, since a very small proportion of horses actually need them?

Loving this discussion  !


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## Jesstickle (11 January 2011)

I would imagine that we are doing that. Most world cup show jumpers, gold cup winners and dressage horses are shod. The ones which are likely to win are going to be the ones that stay sound long enough to be fittened/trained, ergo we are selecting for horses which go well in shoes. Inadvertently I grant you but I am pretty sure that is actually what we're doing.

We didn't actually want TBs to have long legs, it is a by product of them being quick but I would say they are definitely more leggy than a native pony. 

We are a funny old species. God only knows why we take so much enjoyment in winning races and jumping fences that we go to all this trouble.


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## criso (11 January 2011)

jesstickle said:



			The ones which are likely to win are going to be the ones that stay sound long enough to be fittened/trained, ergo we are selecting for horses which go well in shoes.
		
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Maybe the showjumpers and dressage horses but the racers go to stud long before they develop problems. The webpage for Frankie's dad makes a point of saying he retired sound in wind and limb...at 4.  Frankie was still sound at 4, it took till nearly 6 for shoes to finally get to him.


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## Jesstickle (11 January 2011)

criso said:



			Maybe the showjumpers and dressage horses but the racers go to stud long before they develop problems. The webpage for Frankie's dad makes a point of saying he retired sound in wind and limb...at 4.  Frankie was still sound at 4, it took till nearly 6 for shoes to finally get to him.
		
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But they start years younger too. But yes, that's a good point. 

BTW I don't think we _ should _ select these horses, just that we probably are whilst looking for other traits


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## cptrayes (11 January 2011)

jesstickle said:



			I would imagine that we are doing that. Most world cup show jumpers, gold cup winners and dressage horses are shod. The ones which are likely to win are going to be the ones that stay sound long enough to be fittened/trained, ergo we are selecting for horses which go well in shoes. Inadvertently I grant you but I am pretty sure that is actually what we're doing.

We didn't actually want TBs to have long legs, it is a by product of them being quick but I would say they are definitely more leggy than a native pony. 

We are a funny old species. God only knows why we take so much enjoyment in winning races and jumping fences that we go to all this trouble.
		
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Most world cup show jumpers, gold cup winners and top class dressage horses are shod but medicated to within an inch of their lives. Do you know it is routine to inject the hocks of top class dressage horses every six months or more often? I went to a top-end dealer the other day looking for a good dressage prospect and those that they compete at advanced level and above are x-rayed every year. Horses at the level where they are going to be in demand as future stallions are going to have the most perfect farriery imaginable, be medicated at the tiniest hint of a problem even if they are not lame, and actually MORE likely to breed horses that cannot cope with shoes unless they get the same level of care, not less. And how many people are breeding from top class mares retired and even given away because they have problems? I personally know of two. 

I grant you that the stallions that get foot issues before they are, say, five and have shown their talent, will be weeded out (except flatracers of course, who are retired to stud at three or four) but that will be the minority to have problems that young.

I cannot see any evolutionary pressure to create horses that manage shoes better at all. But my question remains - why would we need that evolutionary pressure when the majority of horses do not need shoes at all. Let's just stop using shoes. Much easier.


Next  ?


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## amandap (11 January 2011)

jesstickle said:



			We are a funny old species. God only knows why we take so much enjoyment in winning races and jumping fences that we go to all this trouble.
		
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You're not kidding.   I think human ego has a lot to do with it. 

I also believe it actually takes hooves internal structures as long as the skeleton to fully mature/develop around 6 - 7 years. So a horse shod at two effectively has it's internal foot development slowed down dramatically. Perhaps another reason for some horses having problems when first out of shoes. That thinking also has implications for time being a big factor in rehabilition for some horses. (need a pensive smiley)


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## LucyPriory (11 January 2011)

I don't know how to use those smiley things.........

Yay Amandap - Typically what I see with TBs are adult horses walking around on baby feet.

Often wedged and padded with or without NB shoes or various.

They are usually baby feet because the carers of the foot during its youth have not allowed it to develop properly.  Shoeing young, lack of appropriate movement, diet, all contribute.

On deshoeing, they also more often than not have nails through not just the white line which is bad enough, but also the sole and into the internal structures of the foot.

This is usually because the outer wall has been heavily rasped to bring the foot into a predetermined set of angles, and this leaves the farrier nothing to nail into.  But they still get nailed.

It is possible to rehabilitate these sore, often infected, baby feet into the adult feet they should be, but the longer it has gone on the harder it is.  And that is before addressing any diet etc issues.

I have come across some young horses heading into the same problem, but not yet shod, a simple, structured movement programme has put them right remarkably quickly and they end up with superb feet.

Which quite neatly takes me back to why I got into barefoot all those years ago.


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## cptrayes (11 January 2011)

smilies 
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?p=8912779#post8912779


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## brucea (11 January 2011)

And to think the whole lot depends on the health of a basement membrane as thin as a piece of paper....


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## cptrayes (2 February 2012)

dare.to.go.bare said:



			so you know how longit takes for the skeleton to mature yet we have no worries about getting on their backs!
		
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The last time I looked I wasn't riding in a suit of hardened steel permanently attached to my not yet fully mature horse


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## Marydoll (2 February 2012)

Just ventured into this thread and when i saw the amount of posts apologies i havent read them all.
I have 3 horses 1 in shoes and 2 unshod/barefoot.
My farrier does them all, i trust my farrier with my horses feet or i wouldnt use him, ive never used a BFT as tbh ive always wanted my horses shod due to the work they do on the surfaces they are ridden on.
I do read with interest some of the barefoot posts on here and in particular the ones where horses who have been lame have been helped.
I have also read some posts that are not so kind to BFT or the ethos behind it.
I think you get both good and bad in each camp, im happy ive got a good farrier doing my horses, and im sure the barefoot guys are happy with their trimmers.


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## cptrayes (2 February 2012)

How's Rab doing Marydoll?


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## cptrayes (2 February 2012)

dare.to.go.bare said:





cptrayes said:



			The last time I looked I wasn't riding in a suit of hardened steel permanently attached to my not yet fully mature horse [/Q

So you back your horses at 7 then? If not your bearing weight on a locomotion muscle not a weight bearing muscle on a undeveloped skeletal frame? 

Click to expand...

Where do you get 7 from? Leg growth plates seal at 4, earlier in TBs. The neck does not seal until 8 and big horses like I ride are far from mature until 9 or 10. 

I back at 3. I am not a rigid structure.  I weigh around 12% of my horse's weight which is no problem for them to carry. I can feel when they are having the slightest difficulty doing what I ask and stop. And there is plenty of evidence that weightbearing activity in young horses produces stronger bone. 

It bears no comparison whatsoever with nailing a hardened steel shoe to a foot which is not fully developed.
		
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## Marydoll (2 February 2012)

cptrayes said:



			How's Rab doing Marydoll? 

Click to expand...

Lol now he's got the bandage of his heid he's looking better, a bit wind burned through his vest and looking like a chequer board  ive told him to rug himself up tonight as its cold, and he's no getting in when he stoats back from the pub, a 400g should make the beggar sweat


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## trina1982 (2 February 2012)

cptrayes said:





dare.to.go.bare said:



			Where do you get 7 from? Leg growth plates seal at 4, earlier in TBs. The neck does not seal until 8 and big horses like I ride are far from mature until 9 or 10. 

I back at 3. I am not a rigid structure.  I weigh around 12% of my horse's weight which is no problem for them to carry. I can feel when they are having the slightest difficulty doing what I ask and stop. And there is plenty of evidence that weightbearing activity in young horses produces stronger bone. 

It bears no comparison whatsoever with nailing a hardened steel shoe to a foot which is not fully developed.
		
Click to expand...

Just to add to this that a shoe is on 24/7. A rider is not.

Trina x
		
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## Foxhunter49 (2 February 2012)

nokia said:



			This is a very intresting subject, and seems to be becoming a more spoken about at our yard than ever before.

I am hoping to get my horse trimmed soon by a barefoot trimmer, my farrier seems to take no time whatsoever to trim my horses feet and they look awfull.

So im going to use a barefoot trimmer , they are double the price of a normal trim but i want my horses feet to be right so im going to give it a go.

What are other peoples thoughts on here
		
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This barefoot trimmer is actually breaking the law in charging you to trim your horse's feet.
It is illegal for anyone bar a trained farrier by the Worshipful Company of Farriers or a vet.

You may trim your own horse but cannot hire an unqualified trimmer who has not trained via WCF


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## intouch (2 February 2012)

Foxhunter49 said:



			This barefoot trimmer is actually breaking the law in charging you to trim your horse's feet.
It is illegal for anyone bar a trained farrier by the Worshipful Company of Farriers or a vet.

You may trim your own horse but cannot hire an unqualified trimmer who has not trained via WCF
		
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Where on earth did you get that from???


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## maggiesmum (3 February 2012)

Foxhunter49 said:



			This barefoot trimmer is actually breaking the law in charging you to trim your horse's feet.
It is illegal for anyone bar a trained farrier by the Worshipful Company of Farriers or a vet.

You may trim your own horse but cannot hire an unqualified trimmer who has not trained via WCF
		
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In which case there are a lot of illegal practitioners out there!  
What total rubbish, who on earth has told you that!


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## Oberon (3 February 2012)

"To trim in preperation for a shoe" it is illegal. But perfectly legal otherwise.


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## tallyho! (3 February 2012)

For people who think farriers are better trained than trimmers... read the syllabus... its mainly working iron and just one week on foot anatomy. Trimmers train for months!!!!

Something that makes as much sense as barefoot, even Xenophon advocated it, is not a fad. I see people with shod horses with the wrong shaped feet - it makes me cringe but they are blind to see what is going on because they are ignorant to what a foot should look like.


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## dallastheo (3 February 2012)

i am also so confused with this subject at the mo, as soon as i make one descision somebody says something else! i have used a farrier for years, but my mare has problems with her back end,has arthiritus in her stifle and as a result of that holds her left hind under herself, her left hind hoof has grown boxy, and her right hind has extra growth on the inside and is more of a pigeon shape toe. somebody suggested using a barefoot trimmer to try and balance her out again, but may i add she is now 23!!! and has learnt to cope this way all her life (she has daniloyn, she is not always completley sound but she is otherwise in great condition, in the summer months you wont see any stiffness at all...warm weather definiately does her justice! but i have been warned my friend took this action, they took such dramatic changes to the horses feet they made the horse extremely lame, few months down the line was put to sleep, ( and other problems). My physio also explained how much is would cause her to use many different muscles and cause her pain. also the fact that barefoot trimmers' charge mass amounts of money, take about 4 hours, and everysingle one i have seen has done a crap job, and personally seeing one damage a horses feet. maybe there are some good out there... but at the minute a farrier seems a dam good option to me, apose to a weeks blummin trainin on how to chizel off some foot!!!!!


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## Tnavas (3 February 2012)

I would rather use a qualified farrier than a barefoot trimmer. Until the barefoot trimmers are officially registered I won't have one near my horses. I've seen far too many stuff up horses feet. Mine are all barefoot, trimmed by my farrier every four weeks. My Clydesdale is worked with no shoes.

Can you put up a picture of your horses feet so that we can see what the problem is?


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## dallastheo (3 February 2012)

i will get some picvs of my mares feet this weekend and see if anyone can help me on here i think!!x


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## Sarah1 (3 February 2012)

tallyho! said:



			For people who think farriers are better trained than trimmers... read the syllabus... its mainly working iron and just one week on foot anatomy. Trimmers train for months!!!!
		
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Farriers train for years don't they?!  So only 1 week out of all those years is spent on foot anatomy?!  
In answer to the OP - Farrier every time, no way would I let a trimmer near my horse & most certainly wouldn't do it myself!


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## Pale Rider (3 February 2012)

If you want a nice set of gates, a farrier would do a better job than a trimmer, but as for horses feet, well, a trimmer has to be the best option.

Truth is, a few farriers I know have trained up as trimmers. Talking reasonably with them has made me even more sure that unless a farrier has trained up on trimming for barefoot, and not to be putting shoes on, then it really is two different skills poles apart.

I would not let a farrier near any barefoot horse unless they had been trained in barefoot trimming properly. 

Anyway, some of the leading exponants of barefoot are farriers who have changed philosophy.


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## Aces_High (3 February 2012)

I wouldn't let a trimmer anywhere near my horses feet,  in fact I wouldn't let them put nail polish on my toe nails!

Farrier all the way....


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## Paris1 (3 February 2012)

Personally I wouldn't let a barefoot trimmer anywhere near my horse. Farrier have done years of training and I'm sticking with them. Didn't it used to be called being unshod not barefoot?


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## Pale Rider (3 February 2012)

Paris1 said:



			Personally I wouldn't let a barefoot trimmer anywhere near my horse. Farrier have done years of training and I'm sticking with them. Didn't it used to be called being unshod not barefoot?
		
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"years of training"  = really slow learners, lol.


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## Aces_High (3 February 2012)

Paris1 said:



			Personally I wouldn't let a barefoot trimmer anywhere near my horse. Farrier have done years of training and I'm sticking with them. Didn't it used to be called being unshod not barefoot?
		
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I am so with you on that..... It's been shod and unshod for an age   I will not use the term barefoot.  To me bare foot is when I walk outside minus my shoes.


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## Paris1 (3 February 2012)

I don't even consider this a debate. I wouldn't let a nail technition perform chiropody.


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## Pale Rider (3 February 2012)

Paris1 said:



			I don't even consider this a debate. I wouldn't let a nail technition perform chiropody.
		
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??????????????????


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## Miss L Toe (3 February 2012)

A farrier trained for years,trained to shoe horses.
There is often a need to  feed for feet, the barefoot taliban sect will agree with me here.
Also your farrier will not advise on training, bedding,  and general management, it is not his specialist subject, only a few will have their own horses, so they are limited in their outlook.
Farriers are basically trained to shoe horses, they need to be good with metalwork or they will be bad farriers.
 There are several farriers round here who vary from world class to third class, but some people don't mind the soles being pared off so the shoes will last for 12 weeks, yes twelve weeks!

By the way they all train for four or five years, but at the end, they are not all good farriers.

Half the farriers I know would be out of business if half their customers tried barefoot.
I have not trained for any time, but I do rasp off the edges [mini mustang roll , perhaps].
Horse was sound before, and is now, he can do an hour or more hacking with no problems, so why would I revert to shoes?


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## Ladylina83 (3 February 2012)

A farrier will be far better at preparing a hoof for a shoe or a grass trim on an unshod foot as that what he trained to do

I feel a trimmer offers a much more informed all round service though - a barefoot trim is not a grass trim end of ! 

My blacksmith is great at working metal but I question sometimes his knowlege of hoof flexion and circulation 

I'm in a barefoot vs shod battle with myself at the moment


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## Pale Rider (3 February 2012)

Miss L Toe said:



			A farrier trained for years,trained to shoe horses.
There is often a need to  feed for feet, the barefoot taliban sect will agree with me here.
Also your farrier will not advise on training, bedding,  and general management, it is not his specialist subject, only a few will have their own horses, so they are limited in their outlook.
Farriers are basically trained to shoe horses, they need to be good with metalwork or they will be bad farriers.
 There are several farriers round here who vary from world class to third class, but some people don't mind the soles being pared off so the shoes will last for 12 weeks, yes twelve weeks!

By the way they all train for four or five years, but at the end, they are not all good farriers.

Half the farriers I know would be out of business if half their customers tried barefoot.
I have not trained for any time, but I do rasp off the edges [mini mustang roll , perhaps].
Horse was sound before, and is now, he can do an hour or more hacking with no problems, so why would I revert to shoes?
		
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Very true, nice post.


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## Pale Rider (3 February 2012)

Ladylina83 said:



			A farrier will be far better at preparing a hoof for a shoe or a grass trim on an unshod foot as that what he trained to do

I feel a trimmer offers a much more informed all round service though - a barefoot trim is not a grass trim end of ! 

My blacksmith is great at working metal but I question sometimes his knowlege of hoof flexion and circulation 

I'm in a barefoot vs shod battle with myself at the moment
		
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Another good post. Barefoot, go on, you know it makes sense, lol.


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## Nocturnal (3 February 2012)

I choose someone who I think does a good job to trim my horses, be that trimmer or farrier. My current farrier is also a trimmer, so I get the best of both worlds. I've never used anyone who wasn't a farrier, but I wouldn't rule it out - if their timming method works for my horse what does it matter if they're a member of the worshipful wotsit, or whatever. If they do a bad job they'll get the boot, whoever they are.

But then I'm not someone who's happy to let someone else work on my horses' feet when I'm not present, like so many people seem to be.


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## be positive (3 February 2012)

Miss L Toe said:



			A farrier trained for years,trained to shoe horses.
There is often a need to  feed for feet, the barefoot taliban sect will agree with me here.
Also your farrier will not advise on training, bedding,  and general management, it is not his specialist subject, only a few will have their own horses, so they are limited in their outlook.
Farriers are basically trained to shoe horses, they need to be good with metalwork or they will be bad farriers.
 There are several farriers round here who vary from world class to third class, but some people don't mind the soles being pared off so the shoes will last for 12 weeks, yes twelve weeks!

By the way they all train for four or five years, but at the end, they are not all good farriers.

Half the farriers I know would be out of business if half their customers tried barefoot.
I have not trained for any time, but I do rasp off the edges [mini mustang roll , perhaps].
Horse was sound before, and is now, he can do an hour or more hacking with no problems, so why would I revert to shoes?
		
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I agree with some of your comments there are bad farriers that will always be bad farriers, owners need to take more responsibility and interest in their horses feet as they do in other areas.

My farrier was a horseman first, still owns and rides, he will happily discuss his work and is very helpful with any problems that may arise but I do not expect him or want him to tell me how to train or manage my horses, that is not his job it is mine.


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## Sarah1 (3 February 2012)

Ladylina83 said:



			My blacksmith is great at working metal but I question sometimes his knowlege of hoof flexion and circulation
		
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Well there you have it - you should have gone to a farrier not a blacksmith!


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## Ladylina83 (3 February 2012)

Pale Rider said:



			Another good post. Barefoot, go on, you know it makes sense, lol.
		
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Been there worked for years then something changed, gave up put front shoes on - horse now even more lame - vets (2 different ones) want heart bars say she would never be sound with out ! ... but she was - for 5 years !! Had bloods done for EMS and cushings on Wed trying to find out what the hell is going on. I feel like a ping pong ball 

feel like ripping them off myself somedays ... if anyone can reccommend me a vet in the NW that supports barefoot than that would be really appreciated

Thanks for your most helpful response there Sarah1 ! ( rolls eyes )


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## Sarah1 (3 February 2012)

Miss L Toe said:



			Also your farrier will not advise on training, bedding,  and general management, it is not his specialist subject, only a few will have their own horses, so they are limited in their outlook
		
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You're right it's not the specialist subject but neither is it a trimmers specialist subject!  However, you are also wrong with this comment a farrier learns a bit more than just 'hooves' in their training!  I don't know the ins & outs as I'm not a trained farrier but I have an excellent farrier for my boy & he's helped me with far more than jsut the horses feet!


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## Miss L Toe (3 February 2012)

be positive said:



			I agree with some of your comments there are bad farriers that will always be bad farriers, owners need to take more responsibility and interest in their horses feet as they do in other areas.

My farrier was a horseman first, still owns and rides, he will happily discuss his work and is very helpful with any problems that may arise but I do not expect him or want him to tell me how to train or manage my horses, that is not his job it is mine.
		
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If you don't have your shoes changed often enough for the work they are doing, don't you want your farrier to tell you?
Suppose your your horse is abscessing and has thrush, is it up to you to sort it out, well, in a way it is, it is your bad management, but he is expected to wave a magic wand and sort it out, without the management being changed, and without comment to you, the person who owns the horse and has made it clear that you do not want any advice.
Almost all horse owners start off with no knowledge of feet, and many just pay up and never go beyond that level.
Like most horsey things, it is only after years of hard graft, that anyone could have enough knowledge to tell whether the farrier is doing a good job or not, and even then, one may have no difficult horses, so most farriers can do a decent job, only a few horses need a specialist farrier, and a special type of owner.


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## Sarah1 (3 February 2012)

Ladylina83 said:



			Thanks for your most helpful response there Sarah1 ! ( rolls eyes )
		
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Sorry, does this help...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farrier

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacksmith


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## maggiesmum (3 February 2012)

Sarah1 said:



			You're right it's not the specialist subject but neither is it a trimmers specialist subject!
		
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But they do get training on all aspects of management, for instance the uknhcp training course covers nutrition, saddle fitting and horse handling!


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## Sarah1 (3 February 2012)

maggiesmum said:



			But they do get training on all aspects of management, for instance the uknhcp training course covers nutrition, saddle fitting and horse handling!
		
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I'm happy to be corrected, by a trained farrier, but I think farriers are also trained in more than just feet & metal!


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## Ladylina83 (3 February 2012)

Sarah1 said:



			Sorry, does this help...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farrier

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacksmith

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Yeah cos no one ever says - 

"What are you still doing here ??"

"I'm waiting for the frigging blacksmith !! " 

does this help ?? 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)


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## maggiesmum (3 February 2012)

Sarah1 said:



			I'm happy to be corrected, by a trained farrier,
		
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Exactly how do you expect a farrier to tell you about the training a trimmer goes through??


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## Miss L Toe (3 February 2012)

Sarah1 said:



			I'm happy to be corrected, by a trained farrier, but I think farriers are also trained in more than just feet & metal!
		
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Well what else is covered, yes they may look at gait, but how many ask you to walk the horse before and after being shod?
I suppose they do anatomy, but only a few could examine an X-ray and say if it is normal or not, most don't examine enough X-rays.
How about the farrier who put a nail in the wrong way round, the owner who put the horse out in a field for a year, and then "got rid" of it, new owner now has a super young horse, well bred, great conformation, and FREE!!!!, because the owner said, its lame, get another one!!!!!


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## be positive (3 February 2012)

Miss L Toe said:



			If you don't have your shoes changed often enough for the work they are doing, don't you want your farrier to tell you?
Suppose your your horse is abscessing and has thrush, is it up to you to sort it out, well, in a way it is, it is your bad management, but he is expected to wave a magic wand and sort it out, without the management being changed, and without comment to you, the person who owns the horse and has made it clear that you do not want any advice.
Almost all horse owners start off with no knowledge of feet, and many just pay up and never go beyond that level.
Like most horsey things, it is only after years of hard graft, that anyone could have enough knowledge to tell whether the farrier is doing a good job or not, and even then, one may have no difficult horses, so most farriers can do a decent job, only a few horses need a specialist farrier, and a special type of owner.
		
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No he is not expected to wave a magic wand and make things get better, it is the owner that manages on a daily basis and they need to learn hence discussing things with the farrier, I never said I wanted no advice on the feet but it is not his job to advise on my training methods,providing my horses stand quietly so he can do his job.
Everyone has to learn how to care for their horse, I just feel many spend more time worrying about which rug to use or whether the horse needs a different bit, than the fact that the old saying "no foot no horse" is still true today and to take a little time and interest in the way the foot is cared for.


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## trina1982 (3 February 2012)

Sarah1 said:



			I'm happy to be corrected, by a trained farrier, but I think farriers are also trained in more than just feet & metal!
		
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Where's Moorman when you need him!

Look him up Sarah1. He's a remedial farrier with a wealth of knowledge. Posts on here a lot on the barefoot threads.

Trina x


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## Miss L Toe (3 February 2012)

maggiesmum said:



			Exactly how do you expect a farrier to tell you about the training a trimmer goes through??
		
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Farriers won't know about trimmer training, just as a blacksmith  won't know much about a farrier.


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## Sarah1 (3 February 2012)

Ladylina83 said:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)
		
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Not really


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## Tinypony (3 February 2012)

This jumped out at me.  I'm sorry to hear about what happened to your mare.

Can I also say that this is a great post because it speaks for having an open mind.  Thank you for posting.

Personally I think any threads that attempt to put "farriers vs trimmers" are pretty futile.  They don't change anyone's opinions and they don't change the fact that there are good and bad in both professions.



TPO said:



			Finally read all the posts!

I can see both sides; you don't have to look far back on my previous posts to see I did not believe every horse (with correct management) could go barefoot and the trimmer I used reinforced that idea. 

I had the trimmer out to a QH that was bought unvetted and had navicular. I'd tried everything and some of the posts I'd read on here lead me to barefoot so I called out an EP and it was a disaster. I changed the mare's diet (was advised to feed Hi-Fi lite, mag ox and seaweed), walked in hand, bought the boots and pads yet my mare was still uncomfortable. I changed vet practice and they said to remedially shoe her with wedged eggbars. Straight away she was more comfortable and field sound. This just confirmed to me that barefoot was nonsense.

At the end of June 2010 I lost my horse of a lifetime, my everything revolved around her, because she had advanced navicular (TB this time). Again you can read my previous posts if interested. She'd only ever been shod in front since July 2007 when I got her and had been shod from x-rays. I'd taken her to Dick Vet Hospital in March as I'd moved yards (after losing QH Nov 2009) and new YO insisted that TB mare had Kissing Spine and her vet (mine didn't cover that region) also said KS and a spavin so referred her. The Vet Hospital passed her as sound, definitely not kissing spine or underlying lameness issues (like a spavin). 

At that point I moved back to my rented place and got a companion. The hard ground arrived in the May/June and she began to step slightly short so I box rested/cold hosed (there was no heat or swelling). When she didn't improve I called my equine vets who nerve blocked on the Friday and confirmed palmar foot pain. I took her to their clinic on the following Tuesday for full work up and it was "advanced navicular" which the vet rated as 8/10 and it was his opinion that it would have been delevoping for at least 9mths (so vet hospital should have picked up on it?). 

I made the unbelievably painful decision to have her pts there and then as I didn't want her to suffer for a second longer. I'd been through it all with the QH and believed myself to be fairly clued up on navicular having read everything I could find on it, mainly vet texts and papers, and spoken with my vets extensively on numerous occassions. I did ask the vet about options (denerving, injecting the tendon or buting her up and leaving things to degenerate without her feeling it were the only ones I was offered). I specifically asked about barefoot and was told barefoot would not help, her feet were balanced so it wasn't a case of a bad farrier/shoeing and going barefoot would not alter/help/make any positive difference.

You've no idea how much I wish I didn't make that call and had just taken her home that day. If I did no doubt I would have posted on here and just maybe one of the "barefoot taliban/vultures" would have replied and given Tanith an option and a chance. 

As much as I enjoy reading and learning it's devastating reading books by the like of Jaime Jackson and Pete Ramey because they state in black and white that "navicular" can be "cured"/managed and they have never yet had a horse with navic disease/syndrome not come sound. That could have been Tanith but I can't go back in time and have the small comfort of making the decision for T's welfare, not wishing her to suffer at all, and putting that above the huge gaping hole losing her has left. 

You can see in my previous posts that I put CPTrayes on "User Ignore" as I was fed up with what I perceived to be self righteous ranting and using barefoot as a cure all for every problem posted about. When I was looking for yet another whip to flog myself with over losing T I posted in Veterinary asking of barefoot really was a cure for navic (CPTrayes off UI by then!). This lead to me buying the books and reading the websites so that I could make an informed decision. 

The more I read the more I got why CPTrayes and the "Barefoot Taliban" get so frustrated and are so insistant. Having read the nonveterinary books I can see a whole different side to how anatomy works, the effects of shoeing and horse management. I get where the passion (for want of a better word) to promote barefoot, when it's managed correctly, comes from. Now, to me, it makes no sense to shoe for reasons others have posted about more eloquently than I could. I would also like to take this opportunity to publically apologise to CPTrayes.

Those who are as vehemently against barefoot/trimmers as I was will no doubt dismiss this post as being overly emotive and not from an objective viewpoint which is fair enough but if just one person reads JJ/PR's books off the back of this and perhaps gives their horse the chance I didn't manage to give mine then that's enough. I'm really not into this baring of the soul on a public forum; you never know who is reading (although in my case I know a few RL people who read everything I write) but I just wouldn't wish the feeling I have over losing T on my worst enemy so if my ramblings help just one person/horse then I'm willing to take the back lash from it.
		
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## Sarah1 (3 February 2012)

maggiesmum said:



			Exactly how do you expect a farrier to tell you about the training a trimmer goes through??
		
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I don't, I expect a farrier to say what training a farrier goes thorugh!  When have I said a farrier should tell me how a trimmer is trained?!


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## Miss L Toe (3 February 2012)

be positive said:



			No he is not expected to wave a magic wand and make things get better, it is the owner that manages on a daily basis and they need to learn hence discussing things with the farrier, I never said I wanted no advice on the feet but it is not his job to advise on my training methods,providing my horses stand quietly so he can do his job.
Everyone has to learn how to care for their horse, I just feel many spend more time worrying about which rug to use or whether the horse needs a different bit, than the fact that the old saying "no foot no horse" is still true today and to take a little time and interest in the way the foot is cared for.
		
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Sorry, but I think it is important which rug is used, it has to be appropriate not too hot, not too cold, not chafing,  and I also think the bit is important, as a horse without a good mouth is not a horse which will work up the Scales of Training.


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## maggiesmum (3 February 2012)

Sarah1 said:



			I'm happy to be corrected, by a trained farrier, but I think farriers are also trained in more than just feet & metal!
		
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Maybe your post wasn't very clear but I said the UKNHCP training covered more than just feet and you seemed to be suggesting that you were only prepared to be corrected by a farrier??


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## Miss L Toe (3 February 2012)

Sarah1 said:



			I don't, I expect a farrier to say what training a farrier goes thorugh!
		
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Farriers are self employed, they can't be expected to give every customer their c.v., and if you ask for it, you will be looking for another farrier. 
I would consider myself experienced in matters horsey, but when I told my[new] farrier I did not want him to be too harsh with the rasp on the surface of hoof wall, he said, "I do it this way because it is necessary",  [I think he did relent a bit], I am happy to have the rasp used to take off toe and stuff, as it will be six weeks before he will see a farrier again.
No problem now, no shoes.
In ye olden days farriers took on apprentices, good ones made good farriers, others not so good.
College work is not the only work, and a good farrier selects his apprentice carefully.


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## Sarah1 (3 February 2012)

maggiesmum said:



			Maybe your post wasn't very clear but I said the UKNHCP training covered more than just feet and you seemed to be suggesting that you were only prepared to be corrected by a farrier??
		
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Yes, I said that a farrier trains in more than just feet & metal but that I am happy to be told otherwise by a trained farrier, ie by someone who has done the training required to become a qualified farrier!


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## be positive (3 February 2012)

Miss L Toe said:



			Sorry, but I think it is important which rug is used, it has to be appropriate not too hot, not too cold, not chafing,  and I also think the bit is important, as a horse without a good mouth is not a horse which will work up the Scales of Training.
		
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But not much use if the horses feet are causing it discomfort so it cannot be ridden, rugging is basic common sense, somewhat lacking nowdays admittedly, whereas care of the feet is often to some extent neglected  . 
I am not really disagreeing with you, I just feel more time and effort should be put into learning about feet, barefoot or otherwise , as you said earlier many people just pay the money and that is it until next time.


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## Clava (3 February 2012)

I have used many farriers over many years and never had any advice other than an ancient method of treating thrush and a suggestion to use a hoof hardener, I have used two trimmers and had an excellent service but found them expensive. My horses now mostly self trim but I use a farrier to trim my 2 yr old haffy and my pony (but quite often he doesn't need doing either and the reason I like my farrier is because he doesn't do anything if the hooves are fine). My horses are barefoot when not booted. If trimmers were cheaper I would use them more often..


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## Miss L Toe (3 February 2012)

Holy smokes, so anybody can stick shoes on horses feet in the US of A?


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## PooJay (3 February 2012)

my 2 penneth and i can't be bothered to read any of the other posts but, i've had great both! 

Fantastically knowledged trimmer and my farrier is just as good. 

It depends on the individual and how bothered they are about doing a good job for the horse


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## YasandCrystal (3 February 2012)

brucea said:



			Actually, the interestign thing is that a good basic trim can be done by either a trimmer or a farrier. Different trims styles often, but if the hoof is straightforward then a straightforward trim do, and in a couple of weeks natural wear might make each indistinguishable from the other anyway.

Trimmers tend to look at more than just the hoof - they'll have spent a lot of time uderstanding diet, movement etc. and will try to understand the overall helath and chartacteristics of that horse.

So imagine for a momment that you had hooves - would you be happy with a chiropodist who just treated your hoof the same as every other hoof, didn't see how you moved, or explored whether aspects of your diet might be affecting the health of your feet, didn't try to work out why that flare was so big or you had trouble landing on your heels? Would you like it if the chiropodist didn't listen to you about not wanting to wear shoes and scooped your soles dand pared your frog, so that you were sore for a couple of weeks on stony ground? How would you feel?

I think the problem with this argument is that you're trying to compare apples and bananas.
		
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I think you are being very generalistic here. My husband is a fully trained and registered farrier; he spends alot of time understanding diet and movement. He is quick to suggest going barefoot to those owners whose horses he believes will benefit from it. He actively encourages many to take off hind shoes as so many horses can cope barefoot behind. 
It doesn't suit every horse to go barefoot - it doesn't suit every owner. 3 of mine are barefoot, but my mare isn't because it doesn't suit me.

Many competing horses use studs and are shod on that basis if for no other reason. My husband carries out very good barefoot trims. He has also seen some diabolical work by unqualified trimmers, who even with their time consuming grid mappings get the balance totally wrong. He also sees poor farriery without a doubt.

You say about how after a couple of weeks natural wear and tear the foot will look the same from both a farrier's or trimmer's trim then why oh why would anyone want to pay a trimmer double the price of a farrier's trim????? It's a no brainer.

It angers him to see trimmers charging more than double his rate for a trim under the guise of a 'holistic approach' for a skill they have mastered in a weekend. He spent many years in his apprenticeship , he doesn't need a ruler and a grid to see the balance of a foot. And for goodness sake please - good farriers have always been giving dietary advice and watchiing horse movement and trimming/shoeing accordingly. A trimmer cannot shoe a horse so how can they ever give the owner the option of shoes?

There are good and bad in all, but don't underestimate a farrier's experience.


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## Sarah1 (3 February 2012)

YasandCrystal said:



			I think you are being very generalistic here. My husband is a fully trained and registered farrier; he spends alot of time understanding diet and movement. He is quick to suggest going barefoot to those owners whose horses he believes will benefit from it. He actively encourages many to take off hind shoes as so many horses can cope barefoot behind. 
It doesn't suit every horse to go barefoot - it doesn't suit every owner. 3 of mine are barefoot, but my mare isn't because it doesn't suit me.

Many competing horses use studs and are shod on that basis if for no other reason. My husband carries out very good barefoot trims. He has also seen some diabolical work by unqualified trimmers, who even with their time consuming grid mappings get the balance totally wrong. He also sees poor farriery without a doubt.

You say about how after a couple of weeks natural wear and tear the foot will look the same from both a farrier's or trimmer's trim then why oh why would anyone want to pay a trimmer double the price of a farrier's trim????? It's a no brainer.

It angers him to see trimmers charging more than double his rate for a trim under the guise of a 'holistic approach' for a skill they have mastered in a weekend. He spent many years in his apprenticeship , he doesn't need a ruler and a grid to see the balance of a foot. And for goodness sake please - good farriers have always been giving dietary advice and watchiing horse movement and trimming/shoeing accordingly. A trimmer cannot shoe a horse so how can they ever give the owner the option of shoes?

There are good and bad in all, but don't underestimate a farrier's experience.
		
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Amen!   I've been trying to say that farriers are trained in more than 'hooves & metal'!


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## Ladylina83 (3 February 2012)

Sarah1 said:



			Amen!   I've been trying to say that farriers are trained in more than 'hooves & metal'!
		
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Actually you have said that many times ... I'm just not sure anyone is listening to you


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## Sarah1 (3 February 2012)

Ladylina83 said:



			Actually you have said that many times ... I'm just not sure anyone is listening to you
		
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Oh dear, someone did take offence to my earlier tongue-in-cheek post didn't they?!


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## YasandCrystal (3 February 2012)

Yes definately Sarah1 and if people took the bother to find a good farrier then they would get a wealth of information. 
My husband is called very often as a first response to lameness - he will check for an abcess and can advise if the lameness if foot related. If I had £1 for every time he warned an owner that their horse/pony was on the verge or at risk of getting laminitis I would have a jar full. He picks up all sorts of complications that require veterinary intervention. He has got horses sound that the vets have written off. I could bore you with much more, needless to say he is pretty passionate about his job.

Some owners are poorly or ill informed and couldn't tell a well shod foot or a well trimmed foot from a bad one. That is quite sad. As owners it is our duty to ensure we are doing the best for our animal and it only takes the ask of the vet as to the balance in their opinion etc. Hubby has seen feet that shouldn't be allowed and the owners were clueless


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## Fantasy_World (3 February 2012)

I would choose a farrier over a barefoot trimmer anyday for my horses. 
I would trust him to do a better job of my horses feet and also to have a better understanding of my horses' anatomy as well as understanding any physical issues they have which would affect how the horse is trimmed.
Also if any of my horses needed any remedial work or to be shod or to have shoes fitted for remedial work then my farrier is not only more than capable of doing this, but is also legally able to do this. A barefoot trimmer can not shoe under any circumstances unless they are also a registered farrier.


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## Nocturnal (3 February 2012)

Fantasy_World said:



			I would choose a farrier over a barefoot trimmer anyday for my horses. 
I would trust him to do a better job of my horses feet and also to have a better understanding of my horses' anatomy as well as understanding any physical issues they have which would affect how the horse is trimmed.
Also if any of my horses needed any remedial work or to be shod or to have shoes fitted for remedial work then my farrier is not only more than capable of doing this, but is also legally able to do this. A barefoot trimmer can not shoe under any circumstances unless they are also a registered farrier.
		
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The question was 'can a farrier trim better than a barefoot trimmer?' not 'can a trimmer fit shoes?'. And if farriers have such a good understanding of anatomy, why is it that at least 80% of shod horses I see have some kind of issue with their feet? Shod horses with healthy feet are like hen's teeth.

Now I'm not against farriers, or dead set against shoeing, but I am against shoeing an unhealthy foot - but ime this is the norm.


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## Sarah1 (3 February 2012)

YasandCrystal said:



			Yes definately Sarah1 and if people took the bother to find a good farrier then they would get a wealth of information. 
My husband is called very often as a first response to lameness - he will check for an abcess and can advise if the lameness if foot related. If I had £1 for every time he warned an owner that their horse/pony was on the verge or at risk of getting laminitis I would have a jar full. He picks up all sorts of complications that require veterinary intervention. He has got horses sound that the vets have written off. I could bore you with much more, needless to say he is pretty passionate about his job.

Some owners are poorly or ill informed and couldn't tell a well shod foot or a well trimmed foot from a bad one. That is quite sad. As owners it is our duty to ensure we are doing the best for our animal and it only takes the ask of the vet as to the balance in their opinion etc. Hubby has seen feet that shouldn't be allowed and the owners were clueless

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My farrier is quite often the 1st person I contact when I have any issues with my boy - he's worth his weight in gold & he's a big guy! 

My horse had suspected back problems at 4 years old and although I had the vets, chiropractor, physio etc involved it was my farrier who gave the best advice and when I followed his advice things started to move forward very rapidly!  He quite rightly labelled the back man as a 'quack' within about 5 minutes!


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## Clava (3 February 2012)

Nocturnal said:



			The question was 'can a farrier trim better than a barefoot trimmer?' not 'can a trimmer fit shoes?'. And if farriers have such a good understanding of anatomy, why is it that at least 80% of shod horses I see have some kind of issue with their feet? Shod horses with healthy feet are like hen's teeth.

Now I'm not against farriers, or dead set against shoeing, but I am against shoeing an unhealthy foot - but ime this is the norm.
		
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Quite agree, it is the horrors of some farrier's work putting shoes on and what they do to hooves over time that make me question them and their understanding of hooves more than anything. Personally I think they can trim fine, but the fact that so many farriers state that horses need shoes to go on roads etc makes me doubt their real understanding of hooves. I like me farrier but he believes if a hoof is flat it will always be so and if a horse is working on roads it will need shoes....it shows a lack of understanding, but he does a nice trim.


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## tallyho! (3 February 2012)

There are not that many good farriers around though....


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## Clava (3 February 2012)

tallyho! said:



			There are not that many good farriers around though....
		
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I agree and few people question what they are doing to their horses hooves or know what a healthy hoof should look like so cannot judge.


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## indie999 (3 February 2012)

My old farrier is always telling me how he studied and trained and is a member of the worshipful farriers etc............I would rather use a professional than go down the route of self trim/ or someone un qualified. 

I am being ignorant and havent read all the posts but if barefoot trimmers belong to a regulatory professional body ie they are registered like a trained nurse or doctor to weed out the bad ones etc then fine.

I trust my farrier who does trim old boy now without his shoes and he does a FAB job. I suppose its who u trust!

Would hate to go back to old days where unskilled etc


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## indie999 (3 February 2012)

YasandCrystal said:



			I think you are being very generalistic here. My husband is a fully trained and registered farrier; he spends alot of time understanding diet and movement. He is quick to suggest going barefoot to those owners whose horses he believes will benefit from it. He actively encourages many to take off hind shoes as so many horses can cope barefoot behind. 
It doesn't suit every horse to go barefoot - it doesn't suit every owner. 3 of mine are barefoot, but my mare isn't because it doesn't suit me.

Many competing horses use studs and are shod on that basis if for no other reason. My husband carries out very good barefoot trims. He has also seen some diabolical work by unqualified trimmers, who even with their time consuming grid mappings get the balance totally wrong. He also sees poor farriery without a doubt.

You say about how after a couple of weeks natural wear and tear the foot will look the same from both a farrier's or trimmer's trim then why oh why would anyone want to pay a trimmer double the price of a farrier's trim????? It's a no brainer.

It angers him to see trimmers charging more than double his rate for a trim under the guise of a 'holistic approach' for a skill they have mastered in a weekend. He spent many years in his apprenticeship , he doesn't need a ruler and a grid to see the balance of a foot. And for goodness sake please - good farriers have always been giving dietary advice and watchiing horse movement and trimming/shoeing accordingly. A trimmer cannot shoe a horse so how can they ever give the owner the option of shoes?

There are good and bad in all, but don't underestimate a farrier's experience.
		
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I completely agree with you! I have a fab farrier and did use a young chap who was equally as good! Prefer a professional any day!


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## cptrayes (3 February 2012)

marydoll said:



			Lol now he's got the bandage of his heid he's looking better, a bit wind burned through his vest and looking like a chequer board  ive told him to rug himself up tonight as its cold, and he's no getting in when he stoats back from the pub, a 400g should make the beggar sweat 

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I love him, the p1ssed old beggar


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## AngieandBen (3 February 2012)

Clava said:



			Quite agree, it is the horrors of some farrier's work putting shoes on and what they do to hooves over time that make me question them and their understanding of hooves more than anything. Personally I think they can trim fine, but the fact that so many farriers state that horses need shoes to go on roads etc makes me doubt their real understanding of hooves. I like me farrier but he believes if a hoof is flat it will always be so and if a horse is working on roads it will need shoes....it shows a lack of understanding, but he does a nice trim.
		
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Just like my farrier, he trims both my retired, field ornaments which he does fine as long as I stand over him and tell him every time "Leave the Bl**dy sole and frogs alone!!"  However as he looked at my new barefoot loan pony who trims herself he shook his head and said she needed shoes as she was wearing her toe too much and she had "nothing" to take off the walls   groan.  He was quite suprised when I told him I was doing 4 x 2 hour hacks a week, at least half of that on roads/tracks.


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## Clava (3 February 2012)

AngieandBen said:



			Just like my farrier, he trims both my retired, field ornaments which he does fine as long as I stand over him and tell him every time "Leave the Bl**dy sole and frogs alone!!"  However as he looked at my new barefoot loan pony who trims herself he shook his head and said she needed shoes as she was wearing her toe too much and she had "nothing" to take off the walls   groan.  He was quite suprised when I told him I was doing 4 x 2 hour hacks a week, at least half of that on roads/tracks.
		
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Yes, I think that attitude is most common (or certainly is with all the farriers I have met).


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## criso (3 February 2012)

AngieandBen said:



			he does fine as long as I stand over him and tell him every time "Leave the Bl**dy sole and frogs alone!!"  .
		
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Sounds like my ex farrier until the day he ignored me, trimmed the frogs and left my poor pony sore.
I would have liked to have stayed with him as he's a nice guy and very conscientious but he just couldn't get out of that mindset that you trim the frogs and soles because that's what you do.


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## tallyho! (3 February 2012)

Not that I am being pedantic but...... what is SO complicated about a hoof trim that not even an owner can do???

Oh and please could someone point me to a study where shoeing has CURED a navicular/tendon case please???


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## indie999 (3 February 2012)

tallyho! said:



			Not that I am being pedantic but...... what is SO complicated about a hoof trim that not even an owner can do???

Oh and please could someone point me to a study where shoeing has CURED a navicular/tendon case please???
		
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A very good experienced horse friend of mine told me they use to trim their old boys feet as they thought they could do it themselves and they always had to get a farrier out to trim their bad job they did a couple of times a  year as they could never do it right!. What will happen when some num nut makes a hash of it. My farrier tried to teach me just to and the weight of the horses leg etc etc no way could i have attempted what he makes look so easy!

Does concern me that where people can make some money they might set up a trimming service unregulated etc. My Farrier was telling me that since the opening of the EU there had been folks who had not had same training etc and customers had run into problems.


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## tallyho! (3 February 2012)

indie999 said:



			A very good experienced horse friend of mine told me they use to trim their old boys feet as they thought they could do it themselves and they always had to get a farrier out to trim their bad job they did a couple of times a  year as they could never do it right!. What will happen when some num nut makes a hash of it. My farrier tried to teach me just to and the weight of the horses leg etc etc no way could i have attempted what he makes look so easy!

Does concern me that where people can make some money they might set up a trimming service unregulated etc. My Farrier was telling me that since the opening of the EU there had been folks who had not had same training etc and customers had run into problems.
		
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Ridiculous counter argument. I asked what is so complicated, not what has gone wrong! I don't really care about that.... plenty goes wrong in professional hands.... however, the idiot owning the horse must first realise IF it's going wrong in order to do something about it.

SO, at what point do you know if it's going wrong???? what does it take to know?? Do you even care???

Regulation is by the by IMO - look at the NHS..... and then the people it looks after.


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## Fantasy_World (3 February 2012)

Nocturnal said:



			The question was 'can a farrier trim better than a barefoot trimmer?' not 'can a trimmer fit shoes?'. And if farriers have such a good understanding of anatomy, why is it that at least 80% of shod horses I see have some kind of issue with their feet? Shod horses with healthy feet are like hen's teeth.

Now I'm not against farriers, or dead set against shoeing, but I am against shoeing an unhealthy foot - but ime this is the norm.
		
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Ah yes but you see there could be a chance that one of my horses may in fact need a set or partial set of shoes to be put on, either for remedial or because they are wearing away too much hoof due to the roadwork that is needed to get to every bridle path in the area! I don't think I will be going down the boots route, before anyone suggests that. So do I stick with my farrier to trim or go with someone who does just trims! That was my point. 
I think I would stick with my farrier thanks, oh and btw he doesn't advocate shoeing unless absolutely necessary  Also as this person sees my horses regularly and knows their health, age and my riding targets then it is better for them if they are seen by the same person every time, rather than several, continuity of care for my horses' feet. 
As for your question about the shod horses and having issues with their feet.
Blame the bloody owners not the farriers!
A farrier will mostly do what the owner asks.
I know of and have known of horses that have had shoes fitted for no bloody reason whatsoever.
Cannot get my head around it to be honest. If you can't be arsed to go down the bare route and research what your horse needs to have perfect feet then take the easier option and whack a pair of shoes on.
Whereas in fact the process of nailing shoes into their feet and the weight of the shoe on the hoof perhaps does more damage than just leaving it bare and riding.
I am not referring to horses that need remedial shoeing or those whose poor hoof structure needs some kind of shoe for support, even if a glue on shoe. I am talking about the thousands of horses on livery yards just shod for being shod's sake!
Each to their own, but please don't try and tar all farriers with the same brush and I will never, ever have anyone utter a bad word against my farrier as he is the best one I have ever met!


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## abitodd (3 February 2012)

Just to add, I know of several farriers in this country who are outstanding barefoot trimmers and specialize in this field.


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## pipsqueek (3 February 2012)

It takes 4/5 yrs to train to be a farrier, and trimming/preparing the hoof is an important part as actually shoeing the horse.  (OH is farrier...)  Even so would rather have a qualified farrier to shoe/trim than anyone else with considerably less training, you should still be happy with whoever you employ to see to your horses feet though, maybe ask around locally for recommendations if not.


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## cptrayes (3 February 2012)

pipsqueek said:



			It takes 4/5 yrs to train to be a farrier, and trimming/preparing the hoof is an important part as actually shoeing the horse.  (OH is farrier...)  Even so would rather have a qualified farrier to shoe/trim than anyone else with considerably less training, you should still be happy with whoever you employ to see to your horses feet though, maybe ask around locally for recommendations if not.
		
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Whether your particular farrier  has ever seen hardworking barefoot horses will depend firstly on whether the man he trained with had any, because it is not a college taught part of the syllabus and if his master has none, he will see none. Then if he has seen none during his apprenticeship it will depend on whether he has actively taken any interest in hardworking barefoot horses.

And I mean *hard working*. Happy hackers, schoolers and paddock ornaments feet often look nothing like the feet of a horse who is happy to do miles on tarmac and go up stony paths. 

Not all farriers are the same. Many are brilliant. Unfortunately far too many are still making comments like "you'll need shoes if you want to do roadwork", "his feet are too short" (even though the horse is pefectly sound) or preparing the hoof by taking off sole like they would if they are about to fit a shoe.

In my opinion the FRC need to grasp this one and make sure all farriers in training are taught about hard working shoe free horses. This is not currently the case.


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## tazzle (3 February 2012)

I think that the wording of the question sets up one camp against the other and its never as simple as that is it  

I took Taz;s shoes off 12  years ago with my very lovely farrier  ... and it was him that got her to the stage  of this .... cantering on very hard stony ground on endurance rides







yet the farrier that had to examine her feet beforehand ( always doen as endurance rides for all horses) had not wanted to let us start and said he needed a letter from my farrier to say I had not just whipped her shoes off because she had lost one and did not have the time to get it replaced. What the ****........ was he soooooooo stoopid he could not look at her feet and find no nail holes and there fore tell she had been weeks if not months at least without shoes  . He only let me take part because I had hoofboots with me ( well I was a girl guide so always go prepared )  

I learnt loads from my farrier, always asking questions... and he learnt from me too as he asked my advice about hoofboots  / barefoot with regard to a little pone he just could not get even a glue on shoe to stay on or make him comfy. Neither of us too proud to not learn from each other.


When trimnmers became more available (and I could find a non strasser one)........ Taz's ( and Bonnies)  feet were then trimmed by a trimmer ...... and again I asked questions and learnt more.  We moved and it was another very good farrier..... yet more questions . and he showed me how to rasp a bit as he was a very buy man and could not always fit us in when we needed looking at.  He then  retired and we could not find another good / reccomended farrier  but found another trimmer ..... just not very near us .  She did a great job and again I learnt more and more ....... and did  more and more rasping between her visits too.


Now she only visit once or twice a year and I do the rest.


In all this time never had any issues with lameness, footiness and just very occasional use of boots when we doing a lot of roadwork ( Taz drives too and we had to get fit for doing DT and trec).

Her feet were even checked by a master farrier ( we have a school of farriery nearby) on a visit to the yard who knew nothing about who did her feet and he said they were great and needed nothing doing to them. 





I think that there have been some appauling examples of barefoot trimmers.

I think there are appauling examples of farriers




I think that barefoot trimmers that study with a reputable organisation do a LOT more study than 15 days before certification as a _qualified_ trimmer but sadly some people do not actually look properly at the courses and lock onto thinking that the foundation course is the complete course and not looking at the whole syllabus / course. ........ and then state as "fact" that barefoot trimmers only do 15 days study which is erroneous 

Many farriers are knowledgable and supportive of enabling horses to function effectively without shoes supplying managment advice as well as just trimming ........... but there are indeed some who are (ignorantly or wilfully) blind to the fact that many horses can and do function very well in full work without shoes and provide only a  "grass trim" which is not quite the same (because the intent is always to shoe later  ) 




 so OP  .............. tis not a yes or no question


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## indie999 (3 February 2012)

tallyho! said:



			Ridiculous counter argument. I asked what is so complicated, not what has gone wrong! I don't really care about that.... plenty goes wrong in professional hands.... however, the idiot owning the horse must first realise IF it's going wrong in order to do something about it.

SO, at what point do you know if it's going wrong???? what does it take to know?? Do you even care???

Regulation is by the by IMO - look at the NHS..... and then the people it looks after.
		
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yes to get all of this experience I would rather use a professional as a professional experienced person will "KNOW IF ITS GOING WRONG", they will have "WHAT IT TAKES TO KNOW" and yes they wouldnt be doing the job if they didnt "CARE"? Go to india and see the state of those poor ponies. There are plenty of shod horses on lots of yards who dont have problems either. I have had many horses over 30 years and have not had a shoeing/foot problem and many that go WITH/WITHOUT. But I prefer a farrier and would rather use regulated person. Its a bit like going to see a doctor who isnt qualified? My farrier came highly recommended and I trust him completely, he can do barefoot etc or shoe both types! He has honed his skills over many years and has had professional guidance and training. I dont think DIY is the way to go.


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## trina1982 (3 February 2012)

indie999 said:



			yes to get all of this experience I would rather use a professional as a professional experienced person will "KNOW IF ITS GOING WRONG", they will have "WHAT IT TAKES TO KNOW" and yes they wouldnt be doing the job if they didnt "CARE"?
		
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I would love to agree with this, as it should be the case - but you only have to have been a member of this forum a few months to start seeing really bad examples of shod feet, posted by people in desperation with lame horses. It was clearly going wrong, farrier clearly didn't have what it takes to know, and i believe in some cases that no, they didn't care. 

Just because they are 'professionals' you can't rest on your laurels. There are good and bad in every profession, so a degree of self education is required.

I'd love to start a thread called 'show me your well shod hooves' but i think it could be a bit inflammatory - so i won't . But i know my idea of a well shod hoof has changed dramatically in the last year or so, just reading and learning what is correct (not what is 'normal'). 

Trina x


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## intouch (3 February 2012)

I have to laugh at anyone suggesting a trimmer - or a farrier for that matter - does it "to make a quick buck"  Have you ever tried it?  Getting hauled around by ill mannered, untrained hulks of youngsters - or worse, ill mannered, untrained hulks of adult horses whose owners haven't been bothered to train them - is not something I'd want to do for a living!


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## Moggy in Manolos (3 February 2012)

Well my new girl is barefoot and I hope to keep her that way in truth and will be keeping my same farrier who did Seren as he is a good farrier whom I have used for years and I trust his work


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## pipsqueek (3 February 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Whether your particular farrier  has ever seen hardworking barefoot horses will depend firstly on whether the man he trained with had any, because it is not a college taught part of the syllabus and if his master has none, he will see none. Then if he has seen none during his apprenticeship it will depend on whether he has actively taken any interest in hardworking barefoot horses.

And I mean *hard working*. Happy hackers, schoolers and paddock ornaments feet often look nothing like the feet of a horse who is happy to do miles on tarmac and go up stony paths. 

Not all farriers are the same. Many are brilliant. Unfortunately far too many are still making comments like "you'll need shoes if you want to do roadwork", "his feet are too short" (even though the horse is pefectly sound) or preparing the hoof by taking off sole like they would if they are about to fit a shoe.

In my opinion the FRC need to grasp this one and make sure all farriers in training are taught about hard working shoe free horses. This is not currently the case.
		
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Think you are straying from the original question, I was just answering that a farrier has a far longer training in all aspects of hoof care than a bare-foot trimmer.  How can you make a generalisation of what all farriers say about saying 'his feet are too short even though the horse is perfectly sound' etc... where do you get that information from??  

Of course some native pony types can go shoe free (had a n.f pony as a child which never needed shoeing), and other horses depending on their hooves/ where they are kept/ what they are expected to do.  No way could either of mine!  Don't thinks the OP meant this to be a shod/barefoot argument either


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## pastel (4 February 2012)

Totally agree with the person who said it takes years to train as a farrier and no time as a bare foot trimmer, just another fad and people getting ripped off...........


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## Nocturnal (4 February 2012)

pipsqueek said:



			Of course some native pony types can go shoe free (had a n.f pony as a child which never needed shoeing), and other horses depending on their hooves/ where they are kept/ what they are expected to do.  No way could either of mine!  Don't thinks the OP meant this to be a shod/barefoot argument either
		
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Lol! I guess you think I'm pretty crackers for taking the shoes of my ex-racer then? And I ride him out on the roads too, and jump on grass... in fact I do everything with him barefoot that I did shod. But he's the exception to the rule, right?


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## indie999 (4 February 2012)

Now I agree that with any profession you get good and bad no different to a GP Dentist Vet etc & I think we all find one we like best.But I still think it needs to be a recognised registered body otherwise  you will have people setting up and causing damage..thats one of the reasons the worshipful farriers was set up due to poor feet management and to improve horse care etc and ensure they were trained on the horse foot etc A&P. If you think a farrier is no good report them.There is redress. Not sure about barefoot trimmers?

If a farrier will only shoe get another but I have never met this. Mine trims as well. I also know if I ever had a problem he would come out. In fact if it was foot related I would have him out anyday first probably prior to calling the vet out. Its his area of expertise and he is very proud to be registered and takes his job seriously. 

oh he does like horses as well which probably helps.  I think barefoot is a fad too. It put me off buying especially when I was constantly told they were sensitive over shingle driveways(this happened more than once) and I was disappointed as I want the option to shoe or NOT.


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## Nocturnal (4 February 2012)

Fantasy_World said:



			Ah yes but you see there could be a chance that one of my horses may in fact need a set or partial set of shoes to be put on, either for remedial or because they are wearing away too much hoof due to the roadwork that is needed to get to every bridle path in the area! I don't think I will be going down the boots route, before anyone suggests that. So do I stick with my farrier to trim or go with someone who does just trims! That was my point. 
I think I would stick with my farrier thanks, oh and btw he doesn't advocate shoeing unless absolutely necessary  Also as this person sees my horses regularly and knows their health, age and my riding targets then it is better for them if they are seen by the same person every time, rather than several, continuity of care for my horses' feet. 
As for your question about the shod horses and having issues with their feet.
Blame the bloody owners not the farriers!
A farrier will mostly do what the owner asks.
I know of and have known of horses that have had shoes fitted for no bloody reason whatsoever.
Cannot get my head around it to be honest. If you can't be arsed to go down the bare route and research what your horse needs to have perfect feet then take the easier option and whack a pair of shoes on.
Whereas in fact the process of nailing shoes into their feet and the weight of the shoe on the hoof perhaps does more damage than just leaving it bare and riding.
I am not referring to horses that need remedial shoeing or those whose poor hoof structure needs some kind of shoe for support, even if a glue on shoe. I am talking about the thousands of horses on livery yards just shod for being shod's sake!
Each to their own, but please don't try and tar all farriers with the same brush and I will never, ever have anyone utter a bad word against my farrier as he is the best one I have ever met!
		
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I ride my TB on the roads all the time, he never wears too much hoof away . I also use farriers, and I'm not suggesting that farriers are 100% to blame for every poor looking hoof; ultimately responsibility must lie with the owners, I agree. I also agree with Clava, though, that from looking at the work done by the majority of farriers I can't believe that they really have a great understanding of anatomy, there are just too many horses with shocking feet about.

Btw, I don't believe it's possible for a normal horse shoe to 'support' a foot, though I admit there are some pretty weird contraptions out there being stuck onto feet for that purpose... mostly they're just trying to imitate the function of a bare foot; kind of begs the question...


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## Clava (4 February 2012)

pipsqueek said:



			Of course some native pony types can go shoe free (had a n.f pony as a child which never needed shoeing), and other horses depending on their hooves/ where they are kept/ what they are expected to do.  No way could either of mine!  Don't thinks the OP meant this to be a shod/barefoot argument either
		
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Actually it is depending on "how" they are kept not "where" they are kept as to whether they can go barefoot. And I think the OP was placing farriers against trimmers to some extent and that will include farrier's attitudes to hard working barefoot hooves and perhaps, in some cases, their lack of knowledge of them

My Tb is very happy barefoot as are many others so have you ever asked why your
horses couldn't cope?


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## cptrayes (4 February 2012)

pipsqueek said:



			Think you are straying from the original question, I was just answering that a farrier has a far longer training in all aspects of hoof care than a bare-foot trimmer.  How can you make a generalisation of what all farriers say about saying 'his feet are too short even though the horse is perfectly sound' etc... where do you get that information from??  

Of course some native pony types can go shoe free (had a n.f pony as a child which never needed shoeing), and other horses depending on their hooves/ where they are kept/ what they are expected to do.  No way could either of mine!  Don't thinks the OP meant this to be a shod/barefoot argument either
		
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1. It is not an imprisonable offence to broaden a discussion 

2. I did not say "all" farriers say those things. Where did I get them from? I got them from people on this forum, they are the two most common things which are said or done by farriers who do not understand hardworking barefoot hooves.

3. I'll be my bottom dollar that in my environment, with my knowledge and time, I can get both your horses rock crunching within six months, provided that they do not have an untreatable metabolic disease. This is NOT a criticism of you, it just means that I am able to provide the time and environment that some horses require to be happy barefoot. If you are not, then obviously you should shoe, as you quite rightly do.

4. I think that's _exactly_ what the OP meant


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## cptrayes (4 February 2012)

pastel said:



			Totally agree with the person who said it takes years to train as a farrier and no time as a bare foot trimmer, just another fad and people getting ripped off...........
		
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It is true that anyone with no training whatsoever can work as a barefoot trimmer legally in this country.

It is NOT true that it takes no time to train as a barefoot trimmer. The trimmers who are qualified with the four reputable organisations have studied for a long time to get their qualifications. 

No, not as long as a farrier has been an apprentice, but apprentices spend a very long time learning to bend metal which a trimmer will never need to do. They don't spend as much time in college as people seem to think, and parts of the course have nothing to do with shoeing but with learning how to run their business. Lastly, apprenticeships were designed to be that long centuries ago for the trainee to repay his master with low paid work for the time that he has spent teaching him his craft.

There are major parts of hoof function which are taught on the barefoot courses which are not taught to farriers. There is a farrier Moorman who posts on this forum who says he will trust a trained trimmer to know more about the mechanics of the hoof than a farrier is taught. Farrier apprentices are not taught in detail about nutrition or metabolic diseases.

There are some great farrier trimmers. The shame of it is that their controlling body does not appear to be trying to learn from the advances of the barefoot movement and that they support and protect farriers who are putting shoes on horses which patently do not need them, like most small ponies, most cobs and most horses that only do dressage or school.

Why why why do most farriers simply nail shoes on sound and happy three or four year olds without advising the owner to see how they go on without them?


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## Fantasy_World (4 February 2012)

Nocturnal said:



			I ride my TB on the roads all the time, he never wears too much hoof away .

How many miles do you ride each time?
How many hours and at what pace?
How many times a week?
Do you do endurance?
Does your horse have any confirmation faults? Any former injuries, what age is he/she and what breed/weight?
There is a reason for me asking.
Each horse is different. Each rider is different in what they ask their horse to do. Horses will wear away hoof, it is a natural process. You don't see many wild horses that roam needing trims. 
Some horses may have injuries or confirmation faults that may make them prone to wearing away parts of their feet quicker than others. Ask any farrier they will tell you. I am glad your horse seems perfect then. Many others are not, even with the best support in the world 

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## TigerTail (4 February 2012)

Fantasy_World said:





Nocturnal said:



			Each horse is different. Each rider is different in what they ask their horse to do. Horses will wear away hoof, it is a natural process. You don't see many wild horses that roam needing trims. 
Some horses may have injuries or confirmation faults that may make them prone to wearing away parts of their feet quicker than others. Ask any farrier they will tell you. I am glad your horse seems perfect then. Many others are not, even with the best support in the world 

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I agree with the first 3 sentences and then there is a massive problem with knowledge of bio mechanics and hooves.

You dont cure conformation faults by shoeing - actually frequently this actually accentuates it because you're adding a weight to the end of the horses foot causing him to move his legs differently. This can throw things out further up as well (seen in an exaggerated way by the weird shoeing in walking horses in america).

If a horse did wear one part of its hoof slightly more than another then a good trimmer/farrier would be able to address this by providing a trim balanced to that individual horses hoof - its not a one size fits all solution like shoeing purports to be.

Its not the best support in the world, its the best informed 

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## Clava (4 February 2012)

Fantasy_World said:





Nocturnal said:



			. Horses will wear away hoof, it is a natural process. You don't see many wild horses that roam needing trims.
		
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Yes horses wear away hoof but the great thing is that the more they wear the faster they grow. It is then just a question of balancing work with wear and increasing work gradually.

Horses with old injuries or imblances in their body have this clever design feature called a hoof which when allowed to will grow the correct shape that the horse actually needs (if given enough work and correct diet). A farrier or trimmer will make a hoof look correct to our eyes but only the horse can make a hoof correct to feel right.

An interesting example. http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2012/01/puzzling-hoof.html

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## Fantasy_World (4 February 2012)

Why why why do most farriers simply nail shoes on sound and happy three or four year olds without advising the owner to see how they go on without them?[/QUOTE]

Totally agree with you there and also with regard to younger horses too.
Personally I don't think any horse should be shod unless it really needs to be, but that is my own view.
I would always agree to try the barefoot route first. I always advocate this to any horse people I meet, whose horses are shod. Not to lecture them, but to find out exactly the reason why there horse is shod.
All of mine are unshod. One came to me shod, and had tried bare in the past and has also been re-shod fully and partially. He has now been unshod for let me see ..... getting on for nearly 3 years now. He has spavin in both hocks and a sidebone in a fore ( farrier picked this up for me, as I didn't know). Almost 21 and a heavy horse cross and is huge. Doesn't do as much riding now due to age and his arthritis problems. Has been ridden more this winter though and last winter as my mare was out on loan and this winter she has been recovering from illness.
Other a cob, with feet as hard as nails. Again came to me wearing a pair of shoes. That was 6 years ago. I had them taken off and after that time he has remained mainly barefoot and has had fronts on twice and a whole set of shoes around twice in 6 years! The shoes were tried as he was wearing his front feet down quite quickly as he is slightly pigeon toed and bum high so is heavy on the forehand. He also forges with his back feet.
He again has been bare now for nearly 3 years and unless he needs shoes for a medical reason he won't be shod again. He gets ridden a lot, perhaps the most of all and at peak times up to 3/4 times a week which may not sound like much but considering my short hacks are at least 2 hours and around 10 miles plus and longest are around 5 hours and 20+++ miles, as well as him doing endurance rides of 10, 12, or 20 miles, I think it is plenty enough for him. I am not a school person and so don't just pop in the school for half an hour to lunge/ride. 
One horse is a young cob cross. He again has good feet so won't be shod at all, unless for a medical reason ( ie heart bar shoes, but would try the bare route first if it could be done). As he is an unknown then until he starts working and being ridden when old enough I have no idea how he will wear his feet down.
The other is a tb, ex racer. Good feet for a tb, has just one slight flat front on the fore. 19 years of age. Came to me unshod as was a broodmare. Was tried by someone who used to ride her for me, and they thought she needed shoes as was a bit toey. She was shod all round and has had fronts on too. Shoes came off when on loan ( I agreed) in September 2010 and she was barefoot. Came home last May from loan and feet were a bit too short for my liking ( farrier also agreed she was short and also pigeon toed, which she had not been before). With help of my farrier her feet have improved a lot and are perfect now. She was ridden last summer barefoot and did fine. Again long hacks and plenty of roadwork as well as doing an endurance ride. She is starting work again this month ( when I am better) and will stay barefoot. My farrier agrees with me that if a horse doesn't need shoes, don't shoe it!


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## Fantasy_World (4 February 2012)

Gosh aren't some of you barefoot people just the best!


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## tallyho! (4 February 2012)

Fantasy_World said:



			Gosh aren't some of you barefoot people just the best!
		
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Ahh bless you, thanks


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## cptrayes (4 February 2012)

Fantasy_World said:



			Some horses may have injuries or confirmation faults that may make them prone to wearing away parts of their feet quicker than others.
		
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I have owned, own now, or know very well,  several of these. Provided they are not made to do too much work on abrasive surfaces too soon, these horses grow thicker horn and thicker sole callous, in time, on the parts of the hoof subject to extra wear.

The challenge with these horses is to learn to leave well alone in the early stages and not try to give them beautiful symmetric looking feet when they do not have beautiful symmetric movement.


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## A Guilding (4 February 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I have owned, own now, or know very well,  several of these. Provided they are not made to do too much work on abrasive surfaces too soon, these horses grow thicker horn and thicker sole callous, in time, on the parts of the hoof subject to extra wear.

The challenge with these horses is to learn to leave well alone in the early stages and not try to give them beautiful symmetric looking feet when they do not have beautiful symmetric movement.
		
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I agree with this but there is a point that the distortion starts to drive the limb, The clever bit is to know when to leave and when to remove. Like all things in life there are good owners, good riders good farriers and good trimmers and those that fall short.


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## cptrayes (4 February 2012)

A Guilding said:



			I agree with this but there is a point that the distortion starts to drive the limb, The clever bit is to know when to leave and when to remove. Like all things in life there are good owners, good riders good farriers and good trimmers and those that fall short.
		
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I have always found that the horse knows what to leave and what to keep, provided his work is matched to the wear on his feet. The problem with trimming  is that it is second guessing what the horse needs.

One of mine, after six months, was beginning to look as if his whole foot was going to go windswept and it was nerve-wracking to leave well alone. Now, he lands with the whole of the back of his foot at the same time, instead of flipping his foot over, and his leg (it's a front one) is straight.  His action is not straight, and the leg is not perpendicular to the ground, it hits the floot on a centre line of his body, not in line with the shoulder. But by building the foot that he has, he is putting the forces directly and evenly up through every joint in his leg. If he was trimmed to move the leg straight, then there would be significant uneven forces somewhere in his fetlock, knee or shoulder or possibly all three.

I agree with you that there was a point when it looked as though foot distortion was in danger of driving the leg, but this wasn't the case, it was simply a work in progress.

Having now seen many horses move straighter out of shoes, with wonky feet, it's my belief that we are tempted to do too much to "help" the horse when he knows full well how to build the foot best suited to his own leg and except in the most extreme cases should be allowed to get on with it.

Have you seen the post on the Rockley blog of an extreme extension (medial I think) which has been produced by a sound horse with a very significant shoulder injury? I wondered when I saw it what you would have done with it. I'm not trying to fight here, I think we have a true revolution going on in horse biomechanics and we all need to talk to understand when the right time to intervene is, if ever.

This is the foot:

http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2012/01/puzzling-hoof.html


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## YasandCrystal (4 February 2012)

I am sure many of you have seen these - fascinating imo. Sorry a bit off the thread topic.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayEJacuoJ7I&feature=related


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EL_45ml-TlI


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## Fantasy_World (4 February 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I have owned, own now, or know very well,  several of these. Provided they are not made to do too much work on abrasive surfaces too soon, these horses grow thicker horn and thicker sole callous, in time, on the parts of the hoof subject to extra wear.

The challenge with these horses is to learn to leave well alone in the early stages and not try to give them beautiful symmetric looking feet when they do not have beautiful symmetric movement.
		
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Some good points which is why I always chat with my farrier before any work is done to any of mine and he always asks how they are in general health, especially about my big lad who has more problems than any of them. My aim is always to have them as comfortable as they can be for their workload. The big man is likely to be reducing his workload though as the months progress when the mare is back up to speed as my original intention was to semi retire him nearly 2 years ago but things didn't pan out that way and last winter he seemed very supple. This winter he has been more stiff and has needed a bit more bute when being ridden too. Last winter I think I hardly gave any at all to be honest. His feet though are in good shape and he didn't need much of at all last time, and none at all from underneath as was told he had levelled himself off with the riding I had been doing. I am one of those people who is not only interested in my horses feet but also so as to know what is being done and why. Unfortunately there are a great many owners who do not take the time to try and educate themselves and do not ask enough questions of farriers and trimmers. Hence the reason I think that things go wrong.
I don't think it is enough that we place our trust in professionals to be responsible for our horses health and welfare. Vets, nutritionists, farriers, trimmers, livery yard owners, grooms etc spring to mind. I believe as RESPONSIBLE owners we should learn as much as we can about the horses in our care and question professionals about decisions and actions performed. True we all guilty of making mistakes along the way, however it is whether we learn from those mistakes that is the deciding factor. As horse owners we are all here to learn, no one is perfect and should never proclaim to be. 
I wish a few more people would take the time to learn about their horses and horses in general though rather than leaving everything up to the 'professionals'. Maybe if we all did that, then perhaps less equines would suffer as a result.


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## A Guilding (4 February 2012)

Have you seen the post on the Rockley blog of an extreme extension (medial I think) which has been produced by a sound horse with a very significant shoulder injury? I wondered when I saw it what you would have done with it. I'm not trying to fight here, I think we have a true revolution going on in horse biomechanics and we all need to talk to understand when the right time to intervene is, if ever.

This is the foot:

http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2012/01/puzzling-hoof.html[/QUOTE]

.........................................................................

I would of put an equal radius in that toe, almost certainly left the bottom alone as P3 would be sat low on the lateral side. The flare would increase the lever arm as the foot breaks over as there is a torsional rotation in that capsule. Luckily the foot is strong.


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## foxy1 (4 February 2012)

Why? The horse is sound now


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## A Guilding (4 February 2012)

foxy1 said:



			Why? The horse is sound now
		
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Because there is a big difference between steering the leg and lameness. It is not wrong to assist nature. I am not your enemy.


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## Clava (4 February 2012)

A Guilding said:



			Because there is a big difference between steering the leg and lameness. It is not wrong to assist nature. I am not your enemy.
		
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but I think this horse is only sound with this shape...


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## A Guilding (4 February 2012)

Clava said:



			but I think this horse is only sound with this shape...
		
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With a hoof that strong I doubt that. It is so hard to put this in post form as im not great at typing. When you get asymmetry through trauma then its a bit like throwing it all up in the air and hoping you are right with what you decide. some times the biomech abnormalities are gait specific so what seems appropriate at one pace isn't the action for another. But the medial flare itself will cause a problem even though it has a different origin to the other aspects of the hoof capsule distortion. As I have said before the capsule represents a picture of the forces placed on it, the problem comes when that distortion when unchecked leads to further complications.


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## Clava (4 February 2012)

A Guilding said:



			the problem comes when that distortion when unchecked leads to further complications.
		
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...but it isn't unchecked it is checked by self trimming and in hard work.


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## A Guilding (4 February 2012)

Clava said:



			...but it isn't unchecked it is checked by self trimming and in hard work.
		
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How has the flare developed do you think?


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## Clava (4 February 2012)

A Guilding said:



			How has the flare developed do you think?
		
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The horse seems to have developed that shape to support it (my TB does the same with her hinds where her movement is very close behind, but to a much lesser degree), where is doesn't need support it hasn't developed - how do you explain this?


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## amandap (4 February 2012)

My understanding is that this isn't flare it is a deviation. Flare is accompanied by white line stretch etc. but in deviation the white line is tight and healthy along with basically good general health of the hoof capsule.
http://www.barefoothorse.com/barefoot_Flares.html


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## A Guilding (4 February 2012)

Clava said:



			The horse seems to have developed that shape to support it (my TB does the same with her hinds where her movement is very close behind, but to a much lesser degree), where is doesn't need support it hasn't developed - how do you explain this?
		
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That wasnt what I asked, can you tell me the forces on the hoof in the picture that caused the flare on the medial wing. When you know the answer its very interesting and gives you a bit of insight into what to rip off and what to leave. I try and leave the word support out as I feel to many people hide behind that  word and I'm not sure I know whether it is a relevant phrase to use.


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## A Guilding (4 February 2012)

amandap said:



			My understanding is that this isn't flare it is a deviation. Flare is accompanied by white line stretch etc. but in deviation the white line is tight and healthy along with basically good general health of the hoof capsule.
		
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So what caused the deviation?


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## amandap (4 February 2012)

I think a need for support that a 'normal' shaped hoof isn't providing. So a lack of 'correct' support for that limb at that time...


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## A Guilding (4 February 2012)

amandap said:



			I think a need for support that a 'normal' shaped hoof isn't providing. So a lack of 'correct' support for that limb at that time...
		
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nope  Remember the word support is banned. support is something you do to a loved one when there in need.


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## amandap (4 February 2012)

A Guilding said:



			nope  Remember the word support is banned. support is something you do to a loved one when there in need.
		
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Lol, I've just barged in on this thread and read to most recent posts as it was started years ago!

Hoof pressure sensors and nerves pick up an instability on the lateral side so grows more sole and hoof wall in that area. When the hoof is no longer sensing instability it maintains growth but stops increasing it. Remember sole grows outwards from frog corium to a large extent according to bowker, as well as downwards. 

Will that do?


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## Nocturnal (4 February 2012)

Fantasy_World said:



			How many miles do you ride each time?
How many hours and at what pace?
How many times a week?
Do you do endurance?
Does your horse have any confirmation faults? Any former injuries, what age is he/she and what breed/weight?
There is a reason for me asking.
Each horse is different. Each rider is different in what they ask their horse to do. Horses will wear away hoof, it is a natural process. You don't see many wild horses that roam needing trims. 
Some horses may have injuries or confirmation faults that may make them prone to wearing away parts of their feet quicker than others. Ask any farrier they will tell you. I am glad your horse seems perfect then. Many others are not, even with the best support in the world 

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I am in the process of building up the miles, I started with about 5 in walk, trot and canter, and now am on about 10 each time, but have only been working him for 4 weeks. I am struggling to get enough road work into him to keep his feet down, so I've just booked a trim for this tues (about 5 weeks since his last one). I don't do endurance, but would have no hesitation in trying it if I had the inclination.

He is a 8yo TB, about 550kg. He has a previous stifle injury which affects his gait, but since working him barefoot he has started to grow a deviation which is slowly negating any effect of the injury. His confirmation is otherwise decent, though he has a weak back end, but this has also improved since working him barefoot.

He is certainly far from perfect, but the problems I was having with him whilst he was shod are slowly disappearing, which is why I'm now an obsessed hoof geek .


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## A Guilding (4 February 2012)

amandap said:



			Lol, I've just barged in on this thread and read to most recent posts as it was started years ago!

Hoof pressure sensors and nerves pick up an instability on the lateral side so grows more sole and hoof wall in that area. When the hoof is no longer sensing instability it maintains growth but stops increasing it. Remember sole grows outwards from frog corium to a large extent according to bowker, as well as downwards. 

Will that do?
		
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Nope you are still wrong, and I banned the word support just. What you say are the consequences of what is going on but the hoof is plastercine compared with the force placed on it.  I have spent a long time looking at this.


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## amandap (4 February 2012)

If the hoof is "plasticine" that explains why many believe shoes are required. 
The extension of the hoof helps the hoof land correctly to take up the incorrect landing (and forces) that would be imposed with a human idea of a balanced hoof and from the horses way of compensating from the injury or other body problem affecting gait.

Plasticine doesn't bounce back into it's original shape when pressure is applied. The hoof is beautifully designed as a shock absorber one mechanism of which is being able to expand and contract to absorb shock waves.


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## indie999 (4 February 2012)

Why do I wear shoes?


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## A Guilding (4 February 2012)

amandap said:



			If the hoof is "plasticine" that explains why many believe shoes are required. 
The extension of the hoof helps the hoof land correctly to take up the incorrect landing (and forces) that would be imposed with a human idea of a balanced hoof and from the horses way of compensating from the injury or other body problem affecting gait.
		
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Nope that's not it either. Its landing lateral dont forget. that deviation is caused after that.


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## amandap (4 February 2012)

indie999 said:



			Why do I wear shoes?
		
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To keep your feet warm and because you haven't developed callous on your sole to cope with hard surfaces. I expect.


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## Clava (4 February 2012)

indie999 said:



			Why do I wear shoes?
		
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...because you are a human and prefer to? Do you nail them on?


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## amandap (4 February 2012)

A Guilding said:



			Nope that's not it either. Its landing lateral dont forget. that deviation is caused after that.
		
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I have to give up with an explanation you agree with then. My understanding is far from deep enough. All I know is that to reshape a hoof like the one we are talking about is questionable as the horse has grown the extension (if that word isn't banned lol). Why has this grown? From the horses gait? If it has grown because of the gait then to me it is required, providing the hoof is not a sick hoof exhibiting laminitis or other physiological distress. If you remove it then the horse will have to compensate again until it's body problems are resolved. If the body problems are lifelong then imo it is better and safer to allow the horse to grow what it needs rather than humans trying to work out what is best and provide that consistently and well enough for the rest of it's life.

ps.any shoeing or reshaping will be out of kilter very quickly as the hoof grows between shoeing cycles. Using work to trim the hoof stays where it is needed providing the work is sufficient.


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## tazzle (4 February 2012)

because not only are your feet surfaces skin instead of hoof you are habituated to shoes indie 

if you had been born to it, or were sufficiently motivated,  despite having thin skin you could take shoe  off and develope callous that would mean you could be barefoot .... many people are


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## Clava (4 February 2012)

amandap said:



			I have to give up with an explanation you agree with then. My understanding is far from deep enough. All I know is that to reshape a hoof like the one we are talking about is questionable as the horse has grown the extension (if that word isn't banned lol). Why has this grown? From the horses gait? If it has grown because of the gait then to me it is required, providing the hoof is not a sick hoof exhibiting laminitis or other physiological distress. If you remove it then the horse will have to compensate again until it's body problems are resolved. If the body problems are lifelong then imo it is better and safer to allow the horse to grow what it needs rather than humans trying to work out what is best and provide that consistently and well enough for the rest of it's life.

ps.any shoeing or reshaping will be out of kilter very quickly as the hoof grows between shoeing cycles. Using work to trim the hoof stays where it is needed providing the work is sufficient.
		
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Thank you, this is my understanding, but I couldn't have explained it. lol.


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## cptrayes (4 February 2012)

This is what I think is going on:

The extension has grown because a shoulder injury is making the horse move the leg with more weight on one side than the other. (The shoulder injury seems, at the moment, to be permanent. It is cetainly longstanding).  The horse has produced an extension not simply_ because of_ the lateral pressure but _in order to_ create an equal sided pressure across the joints higher in its leg. If it had failed to produce that extension, or if it was removed, the one-sided pressure on joints in the leg would, in time, probably result in joint damage and quite possibly lameness.  This lameness would no doubt be attributed to the shoulder injury but would  in fact be the result of refusing to allow the horse to have the foot it knows it needs.

In my opinion, the word "support" is perfectly valid in explaining what has happened, and it is exactly the word which would be used by a remedial farrier who chose to treat this horse's shoulder injury with an extension forged from steel, as is routinely done with hock spavins and angular limb deformities in the legs.

Sometimes, this issue seems to boil down to whether or not we trust the horse to  know what the best foot is for him to have on the end of his own leg.


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## A Guilding (4 February 2012)

Clava said:



			Thank you, this is my understanding, but I couldn't have explained it. lol.
		
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What if its wrong?


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## Oberon (4 February 2012)

If a horse is sound - then who cares?


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## Clava (4 February 2012)

A Guilding said:



			What if its wrong?
		
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As Oberon says, if the horse is sound it doesn't matter if my understanding is wrong, it is working for the horse.


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## amandap (4 February 2012)

Oberon said:



			If a horse is sound - then who cares?
		
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Yay! This IS THE point!


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## A Guilding (4 February 2012)

amandap said:



			Yay! This IS THE point! 

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Soundness is relative, is it in pain probably not, does it have an asymmetrical acquired stride yes, the question posed to me is what would i do different, I would radius that toe, and id have that deviation off, trust me the leg will still move the same but any future possible catastrophic failure of that capsule will be stemmed. It is on the limit of the elastic capabilities of the horn I would imagine.
There is lots going on with that hoof and all the little bits add up to that hoof distortion. I will If you like give my thoughts on how it ended up like that.


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## Clava (4 February 2012)

A Guilding said:



			Soundness is relative, is it in pain probably not, does it have an asymmetrical acquired stride yes, the question posed to me is what would i do different, I would radius that toe, and id have that deviation off, trust me the leg will still move the same but any future possible catastrophic failure of that capsule will be stemmed. It is on the limit of the elastic capabilities of the horn I would imagine.
There is lots going on with that hoof and all the little bits add up to that hoof distortion. I will If you like give my thoughts on how it ended up like that.
		
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I'd be interested to know how you think it ended up like that.


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## cptrayes (4 February 2012)

A Guilding said:



			What if its wrong?
		
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It may be wrong, but we don't think so, and perhaps to understand us you need to know where we get it from. We are now aware, amongst ourselves and from Rockleyfarm, of numerous horses who were unsound in shoes, who went the shoes were taken off grew very, very significant deviations in the feet. These horses are sound with the deviations and less sound if they are trimmed away and positively unsound in shoes. The more we hear about and see, the more we think the horse actually knows best and we should stop trying to tell him how to manage his own foot shape.  

In previous years, a horse a farrier couldn't get sound would normally just have been shot. We don't yet know, long term, how sound these horses will stay, but since they were unsound in shoes then every day is a bonus. I think Rockley has had a couple of them hunting for four or five years now, so it's looking good


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## amandap (4 February 2012)

A Guilding said:



			Soundness is relative, is it in pain probably not, does it have an asymmetrical acquired stride yes, the question posed to me is what would i do different, I would radius that toe, and id have that deviation off, trust me the leg will still move the same but any future possible catastrophic failure of that capsule will be stemmed. It is on the limit of the elastic capabilities of the horn I would imagine.
There is lots going on with that hoof and all the little bits add up to that hoof distortion. I will If you like give my thoughts on how it ended up like that.
		
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I don't understand what "radius that toe" means I'm afriad but assume it means making it symetrical?


Imo the hoof capsule is not at risk. It is certainly not elastic, it is a growing living complex structure that is capable of dynamic responses with many properties, including sensory feedback which stimulates or reduces growth in every type of tissue in the hoof. If the extension was not required it would have weaker horn and break/chip off as long walls/quarters tend to do.

ps. I may well be wrong. I have tried to explain my current understanding of what makes perfect sense to me.


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## cptrayes (4 February 2012)

A Guilding said:



			Soundness is relative, is it in pain probably not, does it have an asymmetrical acquired stride yes, the question posed to me is what would i do different, I would radius that toe, and id have that deviation off, trust me the leg will still move the same but any future possible catastrophic failure of that capsule will be stemmed. It is on the limit of the elastic capabilities of the horn I would imagine.
There is lots going on with that hoof and all the little bits add up to that hoof distortion. I will If you like give my thoughts on how it ended up like that.
		
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How is it going to catastrophically fail? The horse is bearing most on the heels and frog, with the frog in contact with the floor. Why should it catastrophically fail, and in what way??


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## cptrayes (4 February 2012)

A Guilding we are all enjoying discussing this with you tons, I bet 

To put  things in perspective, can you just tell us whether you do a lot of working barefoot horse feet or whether you mainly shoe working horses? I'm guessing but it's pretty obvious you're a farrier


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## amandap (4 February 2012)

I am enjoying it because it makes me think about what I understand and whether it makes sense or not.  I always have huge admiration for someone talking/discussing with a few who have different beliefs and is able to remain calm and patient.


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## Oberon (4 February 2012)

"Sometimes but not always" is the key to trimming.

We can all be experts if we sound clever enough and it can be as simple or as complicated as you want it to be.

But a sound horse is a sound horse.

And that's all I really care about.


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## A Guilding (4 February 2012)

cptrayes said:



			A Guilding we are all enjoying discussing this with you tons, I bet 

To put  things in perspective, can you just tell us whether you do a lot of working barefoot horse feet or whether you mainly shoe working horses? I'm guessing but it's pretty obvious you're a farrier 

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I dont think that the ability to unwrap a foot is prohibited by a professional title, as I also don't believe that all the theory in the world will be of use to anyone who cant use tools.


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## Nocturnal (4 February 2012)

A Guilding, I'm interested to hear more about the 'catastrophic failure' you mentioned. As I said above, my horse has grown a deviation in response to a stifle injury; in your opinion, is this putting his hoof capsule at risk of catastrophic failure? If so, would you mind expanding on what that might entail?

The horse moves straight with the deviation, and is unlevel without it. The hoof capsule does not appear to be under any extra strain - the area with the deviation is not any more prone to chipping or cracking, and my farrier is leaving it well enough alone. Would you advise removing the deviation (it is not flare - the white line is tight all the way around)?


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## A Guilding (4 February 2012)

Nocturnal said:



			A Guilding, I'm interested to hear more about the 'catastrophic failure' you mentioned. As I said above, my horse has grown a deviation in response to a stifle injury; in your opinion, is this putting his hoof capsule at risk of catastrophic failure? If so, would you mind expanding on what that might entail?

The horse moves straight with the deviation, and is unlevel without it. The hoof capsule does not appear to be under any extra strain - the area with the deviation is not any more prone to chipping or cracking, and my farrier is leaving it well enough alone. Would you advise removing the deviation (it is not flare - the white line is tight all the way around)?
		
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That's a lot of assumptions, don't get me wrong anecdotal is fine and if it works then great don't change it.


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## cptrayes (4 February 2012)

cptrayes said:



			A Guilding we are all enjoying discussing this with you tons, I bet 

To put  things in perspective, can you just tell us whether you do a lot of working barefoot horse feet or whether you mainly shoe working horses? I'm guessing but it's pretty obvious you're a farrier 

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A Guilding said:



			I dont think that the ability to unwrap a foot is prohibited by a professional title, as I also don't believe that all the theory in the world will be of use to anyone who cant use tools.
		
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I can't disagree with you there but you haven't answered the question 

We get a lot of farriers from time to time discussing things with us on HHO, and some of them turn out, on asking, not to have a single horse on their books that does any more than a gentle off road hack now and then.

If you aren't one of those, then you'll know that the unshod feet of horses who work hard often look very different from those of a paddock ornament.


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## Clava (4 February 2012)

A Guilding, so what was your explanatiom of how the hoof came to look like that, you said you would tell us if we wanted to know.



A Guilding said:



			I will If you like give my thoughts on how it ended up like that.
		
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## Nocturnal (4 February 2012)

A Guilding said:



			That's a lot of assumptions, don't get me wrong anecdotal is fine and if it works then great don't change it.
		
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I haven't made any assumptions . But yes, it does seem to work for my horse. I was just interested, as you advocated removing the deviation from the horse in the link.

But I'd also be interested in your views on how that hoof came to look as it does?


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## A Guilding (4 February 2012)

Lets get back to the horse in question. This is unusual and doesn,t follow normal rules, it has a fundamentaly strong hoof, which has been its saving and alowed an insight into its gait and the forces placed on it. To a point this hoof is growing evenly, however the lateral is landing hard and wearing quicker than the medial. but i will come back to that as each bit has its own cause and consequence. The lateral is wearing and at some point has worn quicker than it grows, as it wears the surface area shortens, as does any reducing circumference, the area left works harder and the friction is increased over a more concentrated area so it gets shorter.
 The muscle wastage on the forearm and the wearing of the hoof sugests to me the horse is placing the leg towards the centre of mass.
there is more if you like


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## A Guilding (4 February 2012)

As the horse lands on the lateral its centre of mass is slightly to the left of centre, That is how it is carrying its weight at the min. then as it moves through the loaded phase of the stride the mass moves right as the hoof equals its load onto the medial side of the capsule.
I will be back got to taxi a child.


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## Nocturnal (4 February 2012)

Possibly a stupid question... but I can't see a forearm in the pics? Am I looking at the wrong link? 

Is there any footage of this horse moving?


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## indie999 (4 February 2012)

Me thinks Farrier bashing thread alert?? Another one has appeared!!


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## A Guilding (4 February 2012)

Nocturnal said:



			Possibly a stupid question... but I can't see a forearm in the pics? Am I looking at the wrong link? 

Is there any footage of this horse moving?
		
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Its in the text.


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## A Guilding (4 February 2012)

indie999 said:



			Me thinks Farrier bashing thread alert?? Another one has appeared!!
		
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You intending to bash me?


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## Pale Rider (4 February 2012)

A lot of folk seem to get wound up about how much training a farrier does or a trimmer does, as if it means something. 6 years of the wrong or irrelavant training means nothing. Half a day of the right training means a lot.

These pious types who state 'Only a qualified, registered farrier, will I allow near my horse' are a joke as far as I'm concerned.

With everything we now know about feet and horses, why would any sane person allow anyone, qualified, registered, trained or what to hammer nails in their horses foot.


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## A Guilding (4 February 2012)

As the medial side loads and the mass moves right the excess growth (it hasnt been wearing) on the medial side of the capsule deforms and bends, for those who dont think that the capsule is elastic remember it deforms under load and returns when released in the normal run of events. Check out Hooke's Law of Elasticity and Young's Modulous of Elasticity. As for future failure the wall is yielding at the min at the distal border of P3, not the laminal Inter digitation, if the force moves to that region then you better reduce the sugar.


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## A Guilding (4 February 2012)

Forgive me this is a crap pic but im not an artist.


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## amandap (4 February 2012)

A Guilding said:



			for those who dont think that the capsule is elastic remember it deforms under load and returns when released in the normal run of events. Check out Hooke's Law of Elasticity and Young's Modulous of Elasticity.
		
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Yes, I was wrong there as I was thinking of the components not the action of the capsule as a whole. Somehow elastic doesn't fit exactly for me but it definitely is part of the action when I think about the capsule mechanism.


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## cptrayes (4 February 2012)

A Guilding I get everything that you are saying and I am confused about when we should choose to disagree with the horse and when we should not.

As the owner of a spavined horse I saw his hind feet change week by week, mostly depending on whether the weather was dry and warm and he was sounder, or whether the weather was wet and cold and he was lamer.  If I followed what you seem to be suggesting, then I should have corrected his imbalance to prevent it "training him", as it were to move wrongly in a bad feedback loop. But the fact was that when I did correct it he was more uncomfortable and he very swiftly put it back the way he wanted it.

So while I can completely see that you are saying that the foot may actually be preventing the incorrect movement from the  shoulder injury from recovery I have a few problems:

- my own spavined horse came sound and moved normally again once the hocks fused. The wonky feet did not leave him permanently lame or moving wrongly and they came straight when he was sound.

- my wonky hunter who is the most one-sided horse that I have ever broken to ride has flanges on his feet on one diagonal that come and go depending on how much schooling I have done to get him to move straight. They do not appear to cause him to move bent, (they had been removed by his farrier when I bought him and were not at that time responsible for a one-sidedness that feels strongly as if it originates in his back)  and they reduce  when his body is straighter.

- my young dressage horse would be putting uneven forces on his front leg joints if he were not allowed to grow a slightly windswept foot. When shod straight, he had an action where his knees came outwards with every stride. It was quite fetching, but very incorrect 

- Nic at Rockley, who I know well, has a number of horses which were unsound when shod straight in shoes, to the point of being given to her for free, which are sound with their hoof extensions and are less sound if she trims them off.

The interim conclusion that I have come to is that I would probably try, cautiously,  to reduce an extension, but that if the horse were less sound when I did, I would allow it to stay. For horses which are unsound in shoes and unsound without extensions but sound with them, it's a bit of a no-brainer for me.


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## indie999 (4 February 2012)

A Guilding said:



			You intending to bash me?
		
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urghh?? ???????????????????????????????????????????!!


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## A Guilding (4 February 2012)

cptrayes said:



			A Guilding I get everything that you are saying and I am confused about when we should choose to disagree with the horse and when we should not.

As the owner of a spavined horse I saw his hind feet change week by week, mostly depending on whether the weather was dry and warm and he was sounder, or whether the weather was wet and cold and he was lamer.  If I followed what you seem to be suggesting, then I should have corrected his imbalance to prevent it "training him", as it were to move wrongly in a bad feedback loop. But the fact was that when I did correct it he was more uncomfortable and he very swiftly put it back the way he wanted it.

So while I can completely see that you are saying that the foot may actually be preventing the incorrect movement from the  shoulder injury from recovery I have a few problems:

- my own spavined horse came sound and moved normally again once the hocks fused. The wonky feet did not leave him permanently lame or moving wrongly.

- my wonky hunter who is the most one-sided horse that I have ever broken to ride has flanges on his feet on one diagonal that come and go depending on how much schooling I have done to get him to move straight. They do not appear to cause him to move bent, (they had been removed by his farrier when I bought him and were not at that time responsible for a one-sidedness that feels strongly as if it originates in his back)  and they reduce  when his body is straighter.

- my dressage horse would be putting uneven forces on his front leg if he were not allowed to grow a slightly windswept foot. When shod straight, he had an action where his knees came outwards with every stride. It was quite fetching, but very incorrect 

- Nic at Rockley, who I know well, has a number of horses which were unsound when shod straight in shoes, to the point of being given to her for free, which are sound with their hoof extensions and are less sound if she trims them off.

The interim conclusion that I have come to is that I would probably try, cautiously,  to reduce an extension, but that if the horse were less sound when I did, I would allow it to stay. For horses which are unsound in shoes and unsound without extensions but sound with them, it's a bit of a no-brainer for me.
		
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Spavin is very different to the original horse we have just been talking about. The Spavin usually occurs in the medial tarsal and tarso meta tarsal joints if I remember correctly, forgive me if I am not exactly correct on that. On the inside for ease To avoid the pain the horse moves its hoof towards the mid center  line, this will flare the outside of the hoof compress the lateral heel and cause a coronary shunt on the medial toe and turn out the foot, stop me if this doesnt sound like your horse. None of the capsule distortion match the discomfort of the joint pain Or the medial distal tarsal lig, Once the joint has fused, horse can walk normally and capsule can auto correct as the forces return to what he had before.
The origanal horse has a wing that has been aquired and is of no benifit to him, migth alter his ability to turn right, get it off 
For give me if the above anatomy isnt correct I cant be bothered to look it up .


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## indie999 (4 February 2012)

nokia said:



			This is a very intresting subject, and seems to be becoming a more spoken about at our yard than ever before.

I am hoping to get my horse trimmed soon by a barefoot trimmer, my farrier seems to take no time whatsoever to trim my horses feet and they look awfull.

So im going to use a barefoot trimmer , they are double the price of a normal trim but i want my horses feet to be right so im going to give it a go.

What are other peoples thoughts on here
		
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I wonder if you thought you got an answer in the end? Ongoing debate....a long one


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## soulfull (5 February 2012)

I am in between camps right now.  Always had farriers and the best in the area recommended by owners/vets/trainers.
However my new boy and all the posts on here has made me look at things in greater detail.   Right now he is an odd one.  On box rest after PSD surgery he has heart bars on hinds and is unshod on front.  I won't go into my reasons as its irrelevant for this post.

I attend a LOT of BS events with work and have started looking at 100's of horses feet.  I must say I cant believe what I see and what's more I can't believe that these horses are sound (some aren't)   What I have found most common is 3/4 to 1 inch heels with very long toes.  Next is low slung heels with long toes.  Only once or twice have I seen what I thought was a near perfect foot.  I have looked at the same horse several weeks apart and never noticed much difference even when obviously recently shod.
I mentioned this to a vet friend and he said 'how many of the BS people keep their horses for long? Especially the ones I see (mid week professionals who sell on)

The very best 2 I have seen were both bare foot

Obviously I am just an average owner who is educating myself and taking a VERY close look 

I am now looking into a farrier who is also a BFT (thanks to a fellow HH'er)


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## patchwork puzzle (5 February 2012)

What I always find interesting when these posts come up is that the farrier is being slated because the horse has under-run heels, navicular, laminitis etc etc, and how much better the barefoot trimmer will trim your horses hooves. Yet you cannot compare the farrier that has shod a horse badly with a trimmer that doesnt shoe......You can compare like to like........the farrier that trims to the trimmer, do you see?
 If the horse is crippled shod, then yes, you take its shoes off and work to sort the problem, but the farrier in that case is a bad farrier. A good farrier will help whether your horse is shod or barefoot. 
 If the one profession (with years of training) is doing a bad job shoeing, then yes he'll likely do a bad job trimming, but a decent farrier can do a good job of both. 
  To compare all farriers to all trimmers, just doesnt work, you wouldnt compare all MOT centres to a tyre fitting centre, saying that because the MOT centre fitted your tyres badly, all MOT centres are not as good as tyre fitting centres and we shouldnt use MOT centres for fitting our tyres. No we would say that one centre is no good, because we know there are always the odd bad apple.
 I hope that kind of made sense


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## eahotson (5 February 2012)

These are only my personal experiences.My knowledge of shoeing and trimming are frankly poor.I rely on the farrier/trimmer to know their job.Enter the spooky one.Came to me bare foot.Nice chapand not at all nasty but with a distinct sense of humour.I was persuaded to try bare foot trimmer.She was quite happy to discuss her training etc. Watched horse move and took before and after pics.Did a perfectly decent job as far as I can tell but couldn't handle horse at all.Goodness only knows what will happen if she meets a genuinely difficult horse.Shortly after that the spooky one went and the Newbie arrived.I changed yards.Newbie had shoes on front only.Tried a new bare foot trimmer whose horse management skills were far better.Horse went very sore and did not seem to like barefoot.He also dropped markedly on his right quarter when moving.He came like this having passed a 5 star vetting.Was perfectly sound actually but had a horrendous back due to poorly fitting saddle, harsh and incorrect schooling and he had learned to twist his right  hoof in slightly to balance.(Know this as farrier told me!).Bare foot trimmer panicked.He was fine so long as everything was fine, any deviations and he panicked.Back to a new (and as far as I can tell) very good farrier.I know that some farriers are dreadful and no doubt some trimmers are and vice versa.Just my experiences.


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## indie999 (5 February 2012)

patchwork puzzle said:



			What I always find interesting when these posts come up is that the farrier is being slated because the horse has under-run heels, navicular, laminitis etc etc, and how much better the barefoot trimmer will trim your horses hooves. Yet you cannot compare the farrier that has shod a horse badly with a trimmer that doesnt shoe......You can compare like to like........the farrier that trims to the trimmer, do you see?
 If the horse is crippled shod, then yes, you take its shoes off and work to sort the problem, but the farrier in that case is a bad farrier. A good farrier will help whether your horse is shod or barefoot. 
 If the one profession (with years of training) is doing a bad job shoeing, then yes he'll likely do a bad job trimming, but a decent farrier can do a good job of both. 
  To compare all farriers to all trimmers, just doesnt work, you wouldnt compare all MOT centres to a tyre fitting centre, saying that because the MOT centre fitted your tyres badly, all MOT centres are not as good as tyre fitting centres and we shouldnt use MOT centres for fitting our tyres. No we would say that one centre is no good, because we know there are always the odd bad apple.
 I hope that kind of made sense

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I have never had problems with shoes on horses and am all for au naturelle etc BUT now my old boy is not ridden I had shoes removed last year(spring). The shoe holes once grown out much improved hoof but during the summer hard ground etc he took chunks out on flint. I know if I was riding him on this flint he would have destroyed his hoof(so not just road work the reason on here that the barefooter camp say horses get shoed for?) Probably if he was ridden on soft grassy fields he wouldnt need shoes. Now since the winter the ground is softer and his hooves are remarkably lovely and round with odd chip but much more perfect. The only thing is he is needed to have his feet trimmed just as regularly as when he was shoed. It is saving me lots of money. The same farrier that has always shoed him trims him and my farrier does look at the whole animal ie I have a good doer and he will tell me if he is far too fat etc and to get him off the grass or watch him/restrict etc etc. I did have a pony with touch laminitis and the farrier put some bigger shoes on to make the pony spread his weight etc to move around and it worked with off grass and hay only. So I have found my farrier and all the farriers over 30+ years all good as gold. I never questioned or demanded that I wanted XYZ just let them do their job and if all was ok or if I was worried was this ok etc etc?


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## Clava (5 February 2012)

indie999 said:



			. I know if I was riding him on this flint he would have destroyed his hoof(so not just road work the reason on here that the barefooter camp say horses get shoed for?) ?
		
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The barefoot camp do not usually say shoeing is necessary for roadwork, roadwork is great for bare hooves. All my paths and stubble fields are filled with flints, but my TB and haflinger do not lose chunks of hoof when ridden on it, in fact they rarely chip, but getting the diet right so they are not footy on it is the tricky thing.


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