# Is having a horse in the box on rubber matting without bedding cruel?



## GSLS (11 March 2013)

As title

Is having a horse stay in its stable over night with hay/water as usual but no bedding and just rubber matting okay or cruel.

I have no opinion... Some vets recommend it for horses with issues such as COPD if turnout is not available through the winter or something/most livery yards don't turn out over night in winter.

Some people have also said it's no different to laying down on grass/hard ground in summer in the field.


I have never done it with any of my horses however I know a few friends who have their horses like this.


Opinions? Anyone ran into any difficulties through this e.g. capped elbows/hocks?


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## tango'smum (11 March 2013)

i would put something down just for him to pee on.... mine wouldnt pee if there was nothing down.. i used to put a flexi tub of shavings in the middle... he now has a big shavings bed, with banks... 


edited to say, i did this when he was only in for a few hours through the day.. he has a big bed if in over night... now hes an old man, he gets a big bed... he lies down a bit more now hes older...


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## cptrayes (11 March 2013)

deleted


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## HaffiesRock (11 March 2013)

I agree laying on matting is not much different to laying on the ground in the field. That said, if a horse is better off without bedding due to COPD or similar, then surely its better off in a field than in a stable?

I dont stable, but if I did i'd put something down, even if it was just a think layer of shavings to soak up the urine. x


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## noodle_ (11 March 2013)

i wouldnt have no bedding.....mine is on mats and a tiny corner of shavings - she lives in a turnout as obvs more wee on her rugs etc.... yuk.

i use a bale every other week and its always fresh bedding she lies on as i remove/brush out the floor daily


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## NOISYGIRL (11 March 2013)

I personally wouldn't for the reasons below

Dirty stinky rugs
Dirty stinky horse
Could get foot problems like thrush
If they were laying out in the field I presume they would choose not to lay in their own pee and poo


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## criso (11 March 2013)

^ That.

If you have a very wet dirty horse like I do, without anything to soak up they are quite soon standing on wee and poo and that isn't good for them.


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## YasandCrystal (11 March 2013)

I don't know that I would deem it as cruel, but there must be some 'dustfree' bedding you could use like that Ecobed or suchlike to soak up the urine at least.  I think that the fumes from the urine if just left on the mats would be more detrimental to the horse's breathing than the potential dust from a small amount of bedding.

I agree about getting stinky rugs etc. Lots of cons to this arrangement.


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## Goldenstar (11 March 2013)

It's the wrong use of the word cruel, so no I don't think it's cruel but IMO its undesirable management and I would not allow my horses to be kept like that.


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## marmalade76 (11 March 2013)

I echo what's been said before, I wouldn't leave a horse on mats without at least a thin layer of bedding. Without the wet will be soaked up by the rugs, your rugs will stink, your horse will stink and in fact the whole yard will stink (I once tried a horse on a yard where no bedding was used, the whole place stunk) but I wouldn't go so as to say it was cruel. Some horse will not want to wee on it, at least in a fields they can choose where they wee and I know that mine have a 'loo' area where they don't graze so there is more grass cover.

I've had mine stabled on mats and still had a full bed down. A full bed stays cleaner, the wet stays underneath leaving the top clean.


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## MillionDollar (11 March 2013)

Personally I really don't like it. I don't even like beds being banked up and then they're left with nothing on the floor to urinate on, etc. My cousin used to have all of hers on just rubber matting. Everything stank on urine, it was gross, and their rugs were covered in urine and manure . It's each to their own but like I've said it's certainly not for me.


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## Rose Folly (11 March 2013)

I don't use rubber matting, but one of the issues with an ongoing RSPCA case I know of is the owner just putting about 2 handfuls of shavings or something in one corner of her rubber matting. The horse won't pee, so goes all night in misery until the owner turns up - not very early - to put it out in the morning. Nor will it lie down. 

As others have said, I think it's very bad management.


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## MerrySherryRider (11 March 2013)

Bad practice.

Agree with others;

 Stinking horse, rugs, stable.

 Horse breathing in stench of urine/droppings and standing in it for hours.

Hay contaminated by filthy floor and horse unable to lie down unless accepts lying in a cold wet mess.

Horse better off out in the paddock.


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## PolarSkye (11 March 2013)

Cruel?  Not always, no.  It's not something I would choose to do - but that doesn't mean it's wrong.  Friends of mine stable their horses on rubber matting with a tiny patch of wood pellets in the corner . . . it's cost effective and the rubber matting is sealed and cushioned so is soft enough for the horses to lie down and get up without capped hocks, etc., but their rugs are rather smelly (understandably).  I don't judge . . . they are lovely people and very experienced . . . and their horses are very well cared for . . . it's just not what I would do (but then I'm a tad OCD about keeping GreyDonk clean).

P


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## DreamingIsBelieving (11 March 2013)

Well my yard is struggling to get bedding at the moment so it is 'rationed' for the riding school ponies. They get a little square of shavings at the back of the stable to lie down on. A few weeks into this I noticed Jock had a little sore above his eye, the type seen when a horse has rolled (or maybe simply laid down?) on a hard surface. I guessed he got it from lying/rolling in the non-bedded part of his stable. It was just a little sore bit, but it shows that rubber matting isn't all that soft to lie on. Also, the mare I used to part loan was on just rubber matting for a time because she's so messy with bedding. It was quite awful to muck out, the smell of ammonia was not something I'd want my horse to sleep near to or for me to muck out.

I'd be using some bedding on top, no doubt about that.


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## ILuvCowparsely (11 March 2013)

My pony is on rubber no bedding, she trashes everything otherwise.

 What you can do is go to hay barn and collect a little old inedible stuff off the floor and put that down where he pees.  That way your not wasting anything

 But my pony will stay this way she is happy pees at the back and it drains out


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## GSLS (11 March 2013)

Leviathan said:



			My pony is on rubber no bedding, she trashes everything otherwise.

 What you can do is go to hay barn and collect a little old inedible stuff off the floor and put that down where he pees.  That way your not wasting anything
		
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Have you had any experiences with any injuries due to lack of bedding?


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## ILuvCowparsely (11 March 2013)

horserider said:



			Bad practice.

Agree with others;

 Stinking horse, rugs, stable.

 Horse breathing in stench of urine/droppings and standing in it for hours.

Hay contaminated by filthy floor and horse unable to lie down unless accepts lying in a cold wet mess.

Horse better off out in the paddock.
		
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 That is just your opinion FWIW

 I Don't agree. You cannot say bad practice I am sure 100's here wont agree

 1.  If the horse is allergic to bedding you have  to leave bedding out
 2.   rubber matting is designed to be used on its own just a sprinkling.


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## Firewell (11 March 2013)

At my livery yard the horses all have rubber mats in their stables with a small shavings bed and a bag of aquamax under the bed in the area they wee.
Works well. I think each horse gets a bag of aquamax and a bag of shavings per week.
I wouldn't keep my horse on mats without a small bed or at least something to poo and wee on. Otherwise it is pretty gross and smelly!


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## ILuvCowparsely (11 March 2013)

GSLS said:



			Have you had any experiences with any injuries due to lack of bedding? 

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No none


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## 4x4 (11 March 2013)

I bought my rubber mats about 15 years ago and at the time I was advised by the manufacturers to put no more than a bucket of shavings or similar material in a corner, muck it out with  snow plough type thing (no metal scratchy stuff), and was told that was the recommendation from the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons.  My horses do not stay in overnight and tend not to lay down in the stable but this system suits me.


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## cptrayes (11 March 2013)

I challenge everyone who thinks it's OK to stable a horse for more than a few hours a day on rubber with no bed to put a bed 4 inches deep in the draughtiest, nastiest quarter of the stable and then watch what their horse actually wants.

Please don't kid yourselves. Unless your horse has serious wind issues (and why then is it in at all??)  you are doing this entirely to save your own time and your own money. It is very unlikely to be what your horse would choose.


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## ILuvCowparsely (11 March 2013)

cptrayes said:



			I challenge everyone who thinks it's OK to stable a horse for more than a few hours a day on rubber with no bed to put a bed 4 inches deep in the draughtiest, nastiest quarter of the stable and then watch what their horse actually wants.

Please don't kid yourselves. Unless your horse has serious wind issues (and why then is it in at all??)  you are doing this entirely to save your own time and your own money. It is very unlikely to be what your horse would choose.
		
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Actually I started with a small bed for the pony.  She totally ignored the shavings poo'd at the front and lay on it .

Sorry but in my case money / time is not the issue.

The end of the day rubber matting is designed to have little or no bedding on top.  That is the way I will continue 

 My gelding has a thicker bed (2-4 inches) He is skipped our right up to 10.30 at night.  He does another 3 poos during the night and you can guarantee he lies in them .  He will even have a kip before late night hay at 9pm, during the last skip out 7pm he has done 1 poo and laid in it.  He is in a 15 by 14 stable, has plenty of room to avoid it but chooses to lie in it.  His late mum never or rarely did and she ws 1 hand bigger than him.  Its his choice he chooses to lie in it. 

 The pony before I removed her bedding also chose to lie in it even again when i skipped her out.  Bet loads here willl agree their horses will lie on poo regardless of stable size/ skipping out/whether they have a bed or not


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## marmalade76 (11 March 2013)

Agree with CP, IMO it's about laziness and tightness, if you're that lazy & tight, leave you horse out. Oh no, then you'd have to spend time grooming and washing the mud off! I know someone who had a coloured she liked to keep clean with mnimal effort. She put down as little bed as possible (on concrete) to discourage hm from lying down. 

I will admit that I am a little lazy myself, and that's one of the reasons I will never buy a coloured or another grey!


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## Elsiecat (11 March 2013)

I wouldn't say 'cruel' no. But I'd much rather have at least SOME bedding down.

One of mines deep littered.
The other two have thick mats with about 3/4 inches of bedding on (get thicker as I chuck bits down throughout the week). 
If my two on the thinner beds ever bothered lying down then I'd give them a much thicker bed. They've been on thick beds and never bothered (also were very very dirty on thick beds and they'd be wet within a few hours ).

I think at least a bale or two of shavings is needed, if only to soak the wee up!


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## ILuvCowparsely (11 March 2013)

marmalade76 said:



			Agree with CP, IMO it's about laziness and tightness, if you're that lazy & tight, leave you horse out. Oh no, then you'd have to spend time grooming and washing the mud off! I know someone who had a coloured she liked to keep clean with mnimal effort. She put down as little bed as possible (on concrete) to discourage hm from lying down. 

I will admit that I am a little lazy myself, and that's one of the reasons I will never buy a coloured or another grey! 

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As usual a poster asks a question and we answer we do what she was asking we get shot down for it.  Well deal with it


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## Purple18 (11 March 2013)

Not only is it smelly and horrible but  very slippy i found with a horse i used to no that he was always slipping around.... Really if it's about money then isn't it cheaper to put down a proper bed then have to pay a possible costly vet bill if/when they hurt themselfs.editted to add the time you save by using no bedding is then spend trying to clean the horse up. the money for bedding you save you then spend on rug cleaning.

I no some people have horses which are very dirty and  it's the only way they can keep them if it's your only choice then cleary you'll do it but it probably wouldn't be most peoples ideal.


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## AngieandBen (11 March 2013)

Looking at it from the point of YO who lives within 50 feet of the stables, I would never have anyone keep a horse in without bedding. 

 I did have one livery years ago who didn't use any, she would clear it all up in the morning, empty the left over water over the matting, then she would sweep it down my drive! Stink stink stink, the yard, the stable, the horse.  He always had thrush, always had disgusting rugs or stains all over him.


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## ILuvCowparsely (11 March 2013)

AngieandBen said:



			Looking at it from the point of YO who lives within 50 feet of the stables, I would never have anyone keep a horse in without bedding. 

 I did have one livery years ago who didn't use any, she would clear it all up in the morning, empty the left over water over the matting, then she would sweep it down my drive! Stink stink stink, the yard, the stable, the horse.  He always had thrush, always had disgusting rugs or stains all over him.
		
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 I NEVER tell any of my liveries they have to have bedding. If they choose to have none - a small square of bedding or a thick one its their choice.  Every one of my liveries has their beds in a different way and thats the way it is.

I live 20 feet from my ponies stable and 7 feet from the door of my mares stable   (6 inches between the house wall and stable wall), I never smell anything including in the summer months when the windows are open. 

 This debate will go round and round.

 Those of  who appose it and those that are for it.


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## Ditchjumper2 (11 March 2013)

My stables all fully covered in rubber mats. They all have thick straw beds on half of the stable. However, T eats, drinks, wees and poos a lot!! His stable is big but he always chooses to lie in it. 

B lived out all the time due to COPD and only came in the night before hunting as he was bathed due to being grey. He had nothing but small amount of shavings to wee on as otherwise it affected his breathing.

The other 2 are fine on half straw beds. It isn't cruel to just have rubber but does depend on the individual.


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## mynutmeg (11 March 2013)

The main problems would be the horse spalshing him/her self when peeing, plus getting filthy from not having pee soaked up. There is also a risk of it causing lung problems from the amonia as non of it owuld be soaked up by bedding, as well as foot problems from being stood in pee and poop.
You'd be better off with a thin sprinkling of dust free shavings to soak up anything.


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## Captainmouse (11 March 2013)

So you give the horse no bed due to COPD but you allow rugs to be used to soak up the wee, thus forcing your horse to breathe in ammonia 24/7.  What affect on a horse lungs do you think ammonia has?


Also what affect does wee and poo have on the waterproof properties of rugs?  Maybe stable rugs are made of washable material for a reason.

What planet are these people on?


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## Tiarella (11 March 2013)

I'd be more concerned about injuries/rubs etc from lying/rolling on just rubber matting than smelly rugs! I think its bad management and totally different scenario to being in the field where they can lie/roll in a larger space and not on their own mess!


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## Tiffany (11 March 2013)

A lot of horses won't pee on a hard surface so I think a little bedding is better than nothing


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## diamonddogs (11 March 2013)

I always understood that matting was designed to be used without bedding as well  Not that I use it myself though (not sure if I want to - they cost a lot of money if you're just going to cover them up with straw or shavings, which saves neither time nor money) and our YO discourages the use of mats though you can have them if you want.

I get criticised a lot because Sham's bed's about a foot deep (when fresh) and it covers two thirds of the stable. It's a balancing act though because too little she won't lie down and too much just gets trashed. They also think I'm odd because I take the bed up every day to dry the floor.

The criticism comes from people who have banks halfway up the wall and beds right up to the door so deep the poor horse can't walk across its bedroom - now I think THAT'S odd!

Each to his own I say!


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## criso (11 March 2013)

Tiffany said:



			A lot of horses won't pee on a hard surface so I think a little bedding is better than nothing
		
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Mine's like that, he'll hold on as long as he can and once when I put him briefly in a box with the bed swept back into high banks I found him halfway up the wall balancing on the banks having a pee.

After a horrendous long journey in the lorry (8 hours) he got off, nearly ran to the stable and had the longest pee I've ever seen a horse have. He won't go on the mats in there either.

Another time he got out and ate all the breakfasts on the yard and on vets advice he was kept with nothing to eat all day.  He's allergic to shavings so the yard put him in a rubber matted box for the day.  He had eventually to to pee and the floor was wet and had several poos in it.  I arrived and found a very put out tb standing at the back of the box trying not to step in the wet bits.  When I got there he came to the door to be let out by tiptoeing round the edge keeping his feet dry.

But then I've always said he's a very strange horse.


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## Daytona (11 March 2013)

Nothing wrong with it, though I like my horse to have pellets I know folks who use nothing but matting but with a special powder you get - looks like talc , you sprinkle down to soak up pee and keep things fresh , you just sweep it up in morning

I'm not sure name but could find out , pm me if you want the details


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## Honey08 (11 March 2013)

cptrayes said:



			I challenge everyone who thinks it's OK to stable a horse for more than a few hours a day on rubber with no bed to put a bed 4 inches deep in the draughtiest, nastiest quarter of the stable and then watch what their horse actually wants.

Please don't kid yourselves. Unless your horse has serious wind issues (and why then is it in at all??)  you are doing this entirely to save your own time and your own money. It is very unlikely to be what your horse would choose.
		
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Have to say that  I agree with this too.

I have rubber mats in my stables purely because my mare digs and rolls and I was always worried before we had mats, that she would scrape a hock or something.  I also like the extra insulation from mats.  Their beds are slightly lower than they would be without mats ,but are still well over fetlock deep (straw). 

I have had a pony in a 14' box with only half the box bedded, and my mare in a foaling box that was half bed half bare mat - both chose to sleep, pee and poop on the bedding.  Yes a horse will sleep on bare earth, but heck they will sleep on bare concrete if they haven't a choice..


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## Honey08 (11 March 2013)

ps.  In answer to the initial question, I don't think its cruel, but not that nice either.


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## Milkmaid (12 March 2013)

Yuck!
As someone else pointed out, why on earth would you want your horse to be stood or worse still have to lay in it's own muck/urine!
I've had experience of this sort of management when mats first came out & I ran a livery yard. Owners all thought it was 'the new way and rushed out and bought mats. It was VILE! They stank, their rugs stank, yuck. 
Thankfully they all went back to having beds PDQ!


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## Milkmaid (12 March 2013)

Continued from above...
I have my stables fully matted & use a half bed of pellets. Quick, easy & best of all absolutely no seepage or smell. Even works for my NF who has breathing issues on other systems/beddings.


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## Littlelegs (12 March 2013)

I'm with cptrayes too. 
  The breathing difficulty argument doesn't wash with me. The stench of ammonia is far more harmful than a bit of aubiose or similar. And neither does the argument that they lie on hard ground in a field in summer. In a field, however dry & hard, I've noticed they don't necessarily choose a dead flat place, they all seem to find patches that suit them.


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## YasandCrystal (12 March 2013)

Everyone refers to the 'urine stench' - do people never use any spray disinfectant or 'smell calmer' in their stables?

I have a hand sprayer I use daily on the floor - it has either Biotal or a Calm It spray in it or other appropriate odour neutralising stuff. It doesn't matter if you use bedding or not - horse urine is horse urine and smells the same.  It is just part of my daily routine.


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## Littlelegs (12 March 2013)

Of course you can get rid of the smell. But unlike with bedding when you only get the urine smell when you lift it, the horse is stood breathing it in all night.


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## cptrayes (12 March 2013)

Littlelegs said:



			I'm with cptrayes too. 
  The breathing difficulty argument doesn't wash with me. The stench of ammonia is far more harmful than a bit of aubiose or similar. And neither does the argument that they lie on hard ground in a field in summer. In a field, however dry & hard, I've noticed they don't necessarily choose a dead flat place, they all seem to find patches that suit them.
		
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Yup, I see that too. They either lie on a slope, find a slight hollow or if there isn't one they dig one.  I think it takes weight off their ribcage. The last place they would choose to lie down would be dead flat. I have a flat, and relatively soft, earth floor in my barn and still they dig "forms" for themselves to sleep in.

I love the other argument that some people use that their horses don't smell because they don't lie down!  I have a friend whose geldings would lie in their own pee, but then she replaced them with  mares who had more sense and totally refused to lie down on rubber with a smattering of bed. She's been forced to give them proper beds. I have read that horses that never lie down apparently don't get proper sleep and can go narcoleptic or very bad tempered.


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## Littlelegs (12 March 2013)

Anyone who's ever put a horse in a stable for brief time with the bedding thrown up (eg straw bed just in bankings & bare floor) must have noticed most horses will bed it down themselves, not just to wee but if they want to lie down. At the very least, they push their hinds into the banking to wee. Which to me proves which they prefer.


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## cptrayes (12 March 2013)

Littlelegs said:



			Anyone who's ever put a horse in a stable for brief time with the bedding thrown up (eg straw bed just in bankings & bare floor) must have noticed most horses will bed it down themselves, not just to wee but if they want to lie down. At the very least, they push their hinds into the banking to wee. Which to me proves which they prefer.
		
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That's why every time this topic comes up I challenge mat-users to bed the mankiest quarter of the stable and watch what their horse tells them clearly that they want.

There was a poster earlier on whose pony didn't lie in the tiny bit of bed they gave it, but pood on the edge and then laid in the poo. I wonder if they considered the possibility that the pony wouldn't lie too close to a wall for fear of getting cast, but still wanted to lie on something soft, so chose it's own poo? I mean, when did you ever see a horse in a decent size field head for a pile of poo to lie on???

But people who want to save time and money seem to go to considerable lengths to convince themselves that it's OK to bed horses on half an inch of dense rubber on top of concrete


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## stencilface (12 March 2013)

Not cruel as such, but not something I would do.  Mine gets a half straw bed on top of his mats, so nice and cosy, with the benefit of being quicker and easier to muck out (he's dirty!) whilst still being thinner than my straw bed on concrete used to be.

Ours rarely lie on the flat when out in the field, but then if they could find a completely flat spot, I'd give them a prize lol


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## Gloi (12 March 2013)

When i have seen well designed stables with rubber matting the urine drains through the mats and into a drain and you can hose both the tops of the mats and underneath so they aren't smelly at all. I think a lot of the problems are from the mats being put into unsuitable stables.


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## Littlelegs (12 March 2013)

Yep cptrayes, I've noticed that with every issue surrounding management, those who practice things most of us wouldn't agree with (keeping horses entirely isolated from other equines, 24/7 stabling without real work, far too small stables etc) always conveniently own the extremely rare horse that prefers that routine. What a coincidence.


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## ILuvCowparsely (12 March 2013)

cptrayes said:



			That's why every time this topic comes up I challenge mat-users to bed the mankiest quarter of the stable and watch what their horse tells them clearly that they want.

*
CP you do seem to challenge people on variety subjects including barefoot.  If they do things different to what you think or practice. people don't have to explain or justify their   day to day routines and why they do things certain ways*
There was a poster earlier on whose pony didn't lie in the tiny bit of bed they gave it, but pood on the edge and then laid in the poo. I wonder if they considered the possibility that the pony wouldn't lie too close to a wall for fear of getting cast, but still wanted to lie on something soft, so chose it's own poo? I mean, when did you ever see a horse in a decent size field head for a pile of poo to lie on???
 As usual your referring to me.   FYI   horses don't think DURRRR I am going to get cast if I lie to close to the wall.  If they did there would  be horses out there getting cast daily.
But people who want to save time and money seem to go to considerable lengths to convince themselves that it's OK to bed horses on half an inch of dense rubber on top of concrete 

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 A rubber mat is a darn site more comfortable that the hard frosty muddy field are they not?
 Horses will lie in poo what ever size the stable or how ever many times you skip out.  Or there would not be stain removing shampoos.  How ever much bedding you put in !!!!
  My ponies stable is BONE dry she pees at the back and it drains out into the drain.  So its neither wet or smelly.

FYI neither money or convenience is why my pony just has  a rubber bed.  Its been this way 4 years and will continue to be like this. 

 I am not justifying myself anymore.  


 Actually my gelding lies in foo and uses it to put his head on he is in a 15by 14 stable as mentioned above He chooses to lie in poo
every  day 

 CP you do seem to change people on variety subjects including barefoot.  If they do things different to what you think or practice.

 Some people do things different, we do not have to explain why or justify our choices.


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## ILuvCowparsely (12 March 2013)

But people who want to save time and money seem to go to considerable lengths to convince themselves that it's OK to bed horses on half an inch of dense rubber on top of concrete
		
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ROTFL

1. I do not have to convince myself of anything neither do my liveries why they choose this method of just rubber for certain horses.

2. It makes no difference to time anyway with my pony as done it both ways.
3.money is NEVER an issue with me or hubby as we have plenty to dish around (And no sorry don't know anyone well enough here to give any out )

But mum and Dad get a good gift of 4 figures from us every month when I visit 



Gloi said:



			When i have seen well designed stables with rubber matting the urine drains through the mats and into a drain and you can hose both the tops of the mats and underneath so they aren't smelly at all. I think a lot of the problems are from the mats being put into unsuitable stables.
		
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Thankyou Gloi    exactly


 Since certain people  (not mentioning names) do not know my stable / set up or drainage.etc etc etc 

 In future . I will state my point and leave it, not get dragged into some petty squabble and me trying to justify my actions as usual.  
 When I went to a rubber mat talk  before I coughed up 11 plus stables to be matted. with a company I cannot mention they went into full details of care - mucking out- expansion- position's.  So I will adhere to their information.   I will not contribute to this thread anymore the OP has left so will I , my ways are explained - but rest assured *They will go on about it*

 Good luck with what you choose OP.


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## cptrayes (12 March 2013)

Leviathan said:





 A rubber mat is a darn site more comfortable that the hard frosty muddy field are they not?
		
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No, we have already established this. Horses like to lie in hollows or on a slope, not on a perfectly flat surface. A frozen field with some grass on it and a rubber mat are about the same hardness, depending on how thick the grass cover is.




			CP you do seem to change people on variety subjects including barefoot.  If they do things different to what you think or practice.
		
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I think you mean "challenge"? That's called "discussion" Leviathan. It's healthy that people have different points of view. I don't expect to change anyone, I'm just expressing my own point of view.




			Some people do things different, we do not have to explain why or justify our choices.
		
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You don't, but I think you have proved my point with the lengths you have gone to to explain why you think it's OK to bed on rubber mat alone 

Your principle argument seems to be that the mat manufacturers told you that it was the right thing to do. It doesn't seem like a good start point to me. The sugar-filled-food companies are forever telling me that their food is good for my horses when it's not.

Like I said already, to find out what your horse would really like, why don't you give it a quarter of a stable bedded and then see what it chooses?


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## Shutterbug (12 March 2013)

Personally I wouldn't have my horse in a stable with just rubber mats - we have a yard near us where liveries are given mats and a bucket of shavings each day - not my idea of a comfy place for my horse to be.  I have rubber mats and he gets a nice thick bed on top of that over half the stable - he lies down on that quite happily and he wont pee on anything other than shavings - I have seen my horse angle himself quite creatively to get to the shavings when his bed was up and all he had was the mats   He also has mild arthritic changes in his hock and the vet recommends a comfy bed for support

But each to their own - I wouldn't say its cruel but its not ideal


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## cptrayes (12 March 2013)

Leviathan said:



			ROTFL
 Good luck with what you choose OP.
		
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The OP isn't choosing anything. S/he's a new poster who's put up two or three threads intending only to generate discussion, and succeeded, suckers that we all are


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## TGM (12 March 2013)

Gloi said:



			When i have seen well designed stables with rubber matting the urine drains through the mats and into a drain and you can hose both the tops of the mats and underneath so they aren't smelly at all. I think a lot of the problems are from the mats being put into unsuitable stables.
		
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Agree with this.  If you want to go the minimal bedding route then you need the right type of mats and the correct drainage in the stable.  

We have Fieldguard M2 mats which have little rubber legs underneath them.  This makes them soft to lie on - I know because I have tested it by lying on them myself.  The mats are quite small so plenty of joins for any urine to drain through, which is possible because the little rubber legs lift the mats off the floor.  A small pee patch of bedding is a good idea to prevent splashing though.  Our floors are sloped to a drainage channel outside the stable, so horses are not standing in urine.  

However, I have seen some mats that are very thin and hard and are more suitable as an under-bed surface.  Likewise the drainage in many stables is not conducive to a minimal bedding set up.


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## PolarSkye (12 March 2013)

I think if the rubber matting is properly sealed and cushioned so that the urine doesn't run underneath and pool and the matting is truly soft enough for the horse to lie down on without discomfort (which includes capped hocks/scraped knees getting up) AND the stable is well enough ventilated for the ammonia not to cause a problem with the horse's lungs then who's to say it's cruel?

I do think it's down to each owner to do what they think is best.  We have one livery on our yard who has chosen to remove her mats and build a shavings bed on an earth floor for her COPD-prone horse . . . there are my aforementioned friends and yard neighbours who bed their horses on properly sealed and cushioned rubber matting with a small rectangle of wood pellets and then there's me . . . I inherited a stable with sealed/cushioned rubber matting not only on the floor but halfway up the walls and I still choose to build my boy a deep straw bed.  None of us are right . . . we are all doing what we think is best for our horses.

P


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## MerrySherryRider (12 March 2013)

People have different standards of management. The mats I have are thick and drain well. They're lovely for dismounting onto when your feet are frozen after riding.
 I also use a stable spray to keep the mats fresh but I still put a fluffy straw bed down because research has shown that straw (for horses not compromised by respiratory problems) is preferred.
 Horses do not have a choice about being confined, so my part of the bargain, is to make that environment as pleasant and healthy as possible. 

Horses sense of smell is much more superior to ours and to leave them in urine/poo stained stable rugs overnight isn't fair.


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## Beausmate (13 March 2013)

Not cruel, unless you have a horse that won't pee or lie down, standing in for hours at a time.  You could say the same for any horse with inadequate bedding though.

My friend put mats down for her horse, they were good quality, expensive, horse (as opposed to cow) mats, designed to be used without bedding.  The mats were slippery to start, until the horse had roughed up the surface.  She was almost fanatical about keeping them clean, washed the floor out most days and the horse didn't smell any worse than some straw-kept horses.  The most obvious smell was rubber!  

She lifted the damn things every week to clean underneath and one day she found the underside crawling with maggots   Despite the regular cleaning, some waste had obviously soaked through (as it's meant to with the type of mat) and pooled underneath.  Yuk.

That was the last day her horse had no bedding though!

ETA. No injuries. This was a 16hh Cleveland mare, who was a touch overweight.


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## wallykissmas (13 March 2013)

Mine has mats and a straw bed with small banks around the edge, I can't imagine him with just mats as he pee's for England and is much better on shavings or pellets.

What sprays or powder are people using to reduce the ammonia smell ?


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## khalswitz (15 March 2013)

I use rubber mats, nice thick ones with the little legs. I also have a bank of shavings round the outside of my stable, and sweep a layer of shavings across the mats for urine absorption when my horse is stabled overnight. Having gone from a deep litter shavings bed to mats and shavings, I haven't noticed his rugs any damper or dirtier, and the stables being in a big, airy agricultural barn means I've never noticed any smell or dampness in the air either. Personally, I think the mats are great as I save money on bedding and go through a lot less, plus my stable is a lot cleaner and I can lift the mats and disinfect regularly, compared to the previous deep litter system. I think this system is better for my horse's feet, too, as he isnt standing in deep litter shavings!!


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## Jericho (19 March 2013)

horserider said:



			Bad practice.

Agree with others;

 Stinking horse, rugs, stable.

 Horse breathing in stench of urine/droppings and standing in it for hours.

Hay contaminated by filthy floor and horse unable to lie down unless accepts lying in a cold wet mess.

Horse better off out in the paddock.
		
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Agree - not necessarily cruel but not great. The stench is horrible and can't be good for the horses lungs. My friend just has mats and says no point putting shavings down as it all has to get removed in the morning as horse just churns it in. Horses wees on bare mats and lies down too so he isn't bothered. But the stable is an inch thick in poo and wee in the morning across the whole stable, not nice. Everything just reeks and can't be good for their feet. 

Then again if the other option is standing in thick mud constantly what's better?


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## poops (19 March 2013)

I have mats with bedding on top. I couldn't not have bedding as my mare can wee for england!

I would rather have her live out 24/7 but not feasible in winter as so muddy & wet


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## Cinnamontoast (19 March 2013)

Happy horse:












Equally happy, sparko on a rock hard ground:






Saying that, although he loves lying in his own poo, I'd never ever leave him no bedding as he won't pee except on bedding or in the field and it's easier to keep him clean with lots of bedding. The least smelly (and cheapest) so far has been pellets. I'd never go back to purely straw as he and I both stank!


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## tabithakat64 (19 March 2013)

I have one that's currently on thick rubber mats only, we have had holes drilled (his stable is on a slope) and every last bit of wee drains away.

He lays down and wee's the same as any other horse and his rugs etc are much less p***y than any of the other horses on the yard who are on mats with various depths and types of bedding.

He's unbelievably wet and YO and I tried literally everything on the market before going for this option, however I wouldn't opt for this had we not been able to install the drainage system we have.


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## YasandCrystal (19 March 2013)

cinnamontoast said:








Click to expand...

Aww I want your horse CT - he is lovely!


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## Janah (19 March 2013)

Possibly not cruel, but not good husbandery for sure.


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## mandwhy (19 March 2013)

Not cruel but would prefer a layer of bedding, mine lives out anyway, I dread to go back to poo and wee stains although i do occasionally wish I had stables when it is wet and windy and horrid, so they can look all cosy like CT's cutie!


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## elijahasgal (20 March 2013)

I have two horses stabled at the moment on mats, with straw in their wet corners, in stables that have ok not brilliant drainage. 
Horse 1, neat pooh and pee in her corner, mats dry, pushes loads of the straw back into corner, so know on deep bed (that is going to have to happen soon as she sheds her unexpected load) its not going to be a nice deep bed. 
Horse 2, next door, mainly wees in her corner, but gets fidgity when she is in long periods (which thanks to this weather.....)
He bed is wet and dirty as she walks it round.  Tried adding more bedding, its just waste.  I look forward to the land drying and her being out 24/7 again, which is what she wants (Or coming in for afternoon for rest and shade...)

I do need to get better mats, as the ones I have are old, and as they were a trial, cheap.  

Everyone has their own way of doing things, its very easy to critizise. There is no total right or wrong, but different people, different situations, circumstances etc.
If the horse pees a lot, wood fiber pellets or aubiose are great at absorbing smell.  I wouldnt personally overnight without bedding, but I would probably be happy for them to stand in for a couple of hours, even on concrete, unless I thought they were going to want to lay down.


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## Queenbee (20 March 2013)

marmalade76 said:



			I echo what's been said before, I wouldn't leave a horse on mats without at least a thin layer of bedding. Without the wet will be soaked up by the rugs, your rugs will stink, your horse will stink and in fact the whole yard will stink (I once tried a horse on a yard where no bedding was used, the whole place stunk) but I wouldn't go so as to say it was cruel. Some horse will not want to wee on it, at least in a fields they can choose where they wee and I know that mine have a 'loo' area where they don't graze so there is more grass cover.

I've had mine stabled on mats and still had a full bed down. A full bed stays cleaner, the wet stays underneath leaving the top clean.
		
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I would not leave a horse with no bedding even with rubber mats, for many years matting or no matting mine have had a proper bed.  However in this last week I have made some changes to this and been really impressed.  Ben consistently poos in one spot and wees in another, this was where his bed was, so I moved his bed to the other side of the stable and it has gone from five inches thick to about 2 so he will lie down - without bedding he wont lie down i then sprinkle a forkful of pellets where he wees and poos, this is just enough to soak up the wee, everyday this week his bed has been completely muck free and dry!  I wish I'd done it years ago, so now, yes I use minimal bedding but I couldn't ever bring myself to do away with it completely.  In my opinion yes, in some form it is cruel, certainly for Ben.  He is happy in his stable and loves very much to lie down and have a snooze, he simply won't do this without some form of bedding, so to do away with bedding would be unfair as it would stop him performing his natural behaviour in the stable, by natural I know it is not natural to stable, what I mean is what is normal/natural for him in that environment.


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## paddy555 (20 March 2013)

Janah said:



			Possibly not cruel, but not good husbandery for sure.
		
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oh dear, I have kept mine like this for over 20 years. There are a lot of misguided comments on here about matting. I haven't read them all. 

I use fieldguard mats. Not the cheapest but as they have been down 20 years they have proved their worth. 
No smell whatsoever. Absolutely none. Before that I had deep littered stables, smell was dreadful. 
No smell because the mats were correctly laid on well draining concrete floors leading to sealed drains. The pee goes through the gaps in the mat. Bed stays dry. 

I sprinkle fine shavings over the mats to the extent you would sprinkle icing sugar over a cake. Very tiny amount not to keep the mats clean but to make the droppings easier to clean up. 

Considerable improvement in arthritic horses. They have loved the comfort of the mats. 

As the beds are dry the rugs don't get any more mucky than in a bedded stable. The horses lie down in absolutely the same way as in a bedded stable. The horses have no problems with the concept of mats. It is owners that want nice cosy deep beds. 
As for thrush.  I have 10 barefoot horses on matted stables all in at night. I don't have thrush. I also don't go through the endless performance that some do of scrubbing and treating feet. I have no need. The feet are kept dry on the mats. 

The right sort of mats, correctly laid and they are brilliant. The wrong sort badly laid then probably a mess.


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## amandap (20 March 2013)

I would love mats but I didn't find the deep litter smelt until it was cleared. Horses don't need deep luxurious beds, my lot lie in all sorts of 'uncomfortable' places in my yard despite having a deep gravel bed for them outside. I've seen them lie on stones and even in a puddle.  No capped hocks or skin lesions, I'm sure it's because they have plenty of space.


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## MerrySherryRider (20 March 2013)

paddy555 said:



			oh dear, I have kept mine like this for over 20 years. There are a lot of misguided comments on here about matting. I haven't read them all. 

I use fieldguard mats. Not the cheapest but as they have been down 20 years they have proved their worth. 
No smell whatsoever. Absolutely none. Before that I had deep littered stables, smell was dreadful. 
No smell because the mats were correctly laid on well draining concrete floors leading to sealed drains. The pee goes through the gaps in the mat. Bed stays dry. 

I sprinkle fine shavings over the mats to the extent you would sprinkle icing sugar over a cake. Very tiny amount not to keep the mats clean but to make the droppings easier to clean up. 

Considerable improvement in arthritic horses. They have loved the comfort of the mats. 

As the beds are dry the rugs don't get any more mucky than in a bedded stable. The horses lie down in absolutely the same way as in a bedded stable. The horses have no problems with the concept of mats. It is owners that want nice cosy deep beds. 
As for thrush.  I have 10 barefoot horses on matted stables all in at night. I don't have thrush. I also don't go through the endless performance that some do of scrubbing and treating feet. I have no need. The feet are kept dry on the mats. 

The right sort of mats, correctly laid and they are brilliant. The wrong sort badly laid then probably a mess.
		
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I'm having trouble visualising your stable floors because I can't understand how your mats stay dry when urine and droppings hit the ground. Even if the urine drains straight away, the rubber remains wet for some time. The droppings make the floor dirty and slippery and horses tread in them.
 I've tried sprinkling shavings on my Kraiburg Ken mats, which like yours are wonderful at draining but it didn't work. I've never seen this method work on any mats, the horse in the stable next to mine is kept this way and it definitely isn't nice.
 How do your horses keep their feet clean? Mine are unshod and have a deep bed of fresh straw each night which is the only way they manage to keep their feet dry after a day in the field.
 While all horses are different, and yes, they do lie down in the field on hard ground -but, in the stable, they only lie down if the bed is deep and fresh. The horse next to us on bare mats, does not because there is nowhere dry to lie.
 I'm curious, because obviously, I'd love the ease and cost saving of not using bedding, but I really don't see how it works without compromising care.


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## amandap (20 March 2013)

I don't have any stables but would like mats for half of my barn then I wouldn't have a bed tbh. It's an old milking parlour so well drained. They come and go as they wish so I expect that makes a big difference to the poo and pee factor compared to being in a stable all night for eg.


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## paddy555 (20 March 2013)

horserider said:



			they only lie down if the bed is deep and fresh.
		
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Really?


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## paddy555 (20 March 2013)

horserider said:



			How do your horses keep their feet clean? Mine are unshod and have a deep bed of fresh straw each night which is the only way they manage to keep their feet dry after a day in the field.
		
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Mine come in from the field with their feet packed with mud. I don't clean them just leave the mud packed in them. That way they are packed with mud and not with dung.


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## cptrayes (20 March 2013)

paddy555 said:



			oh dear, I have kept mine like this for over 20 years. ......... It is owners that want nice cosy deep beds.
		
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I don't believe this is true. I would believe you if you bed one quarter of your stables with a four inch deep bed and then come back to us and tell us where your horses choose to lie down.


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## cptrayes (20 March 2013)

paddy555 said:



			Really? 













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So? doesn't mean they wouldn't prefer a decent bed:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_IaGqwoQlnmA/SeW7-7711YI/AAAAAAAAAfA/oh5DylV6R_M/s320/PICT0102.JPG


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## Honey08 (20 March 2013)

And here is a picture of my horse asleep.  She is in a 18' foaling box, with rubber mats all the way - yet she always chooses to sleep in this bit which has bed.  In eight years I have never ever caught her asleep on the mats, always the bed..  (ps, this is a v shallow bed compared to usual for me!)


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## cptrayes (20 March 2013)

Exactly Honey08!!!!

So, all you people who are insistent that mats are fine, that your horses like them, etc etc etc, just try laying a tiny four inch deep bed, and see where the horse sleeps.

Honey08 I used to bed the same way and got exactly the same result as you.


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## amandap (20 March 2013)

Mine sleep in all sorts of places even when there is a deep bed indoors.  Now Sophie who is shut in a barn at night in winter does use her bed all the time when in there.


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## paddy555 (20 March 2013)

cptrayes said:



			I don't believe this is true. I would believe you if you bed one quarter of your stables with a four inch deep bed and then come back to us and tell us where your horses choose to lie down.
		
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I did indeed try  that as an experiment when I first went into the mats as I too was unconvinced. I was wrong. They showed no preference and happily chose the mats. 
If they dislike them so much why are they perfectly happy to lie down on them so often? Sorry I think it is far too easy to bring human views into it as to what you, rather than they, regard as a decent bed. 

I suspect that the horse lies down in the area of the stable that it prefers and in the direction that it choses rather than on which bit has shavings on it. If for example you put shavings at the back of the stable, which would be the logical thing to do and leave the front towards the door bare it will probably lay at the back as that is where it would lay anyway away from the door. I wonder if that is where the bay horse is lying.


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## cptrayes (20 March 2013)

paddy555 said:



			I did indeed try  that as an experiment when I first went into the mats as I too was unconvinced. I was wrong. They showed no preference and happily chose the mats. 
If they dislike them so much why are they perfectly happy to lie down on them so often? Sorry I think it is far too easy to bring human views into it as to what you, rather than they, regard as a decent bed. 

I suspect that the horse lies down in the area of the stable that it prefers and in the direction that it choses rather than on which bit has shavings on it. If for example you put shavings at the back of the stable, which would be the logical thing to do and leave the front towards the door bare it will probably lay at the back as that is where it would lay anyway away from the door. I wonder if that is where the bay horse is lying.
		
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Your experience differs from mine and from what I see in other horses. My friend got away with minimal beds with geldings, but when she changed her geldings for mares the mares refused to lie down until she gave them a decent bed. 

My experience is that this is more normal that what you describe - desperate attempt to lie on whatever bed is available:

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/...J0XH7zPdf8L_rY-lum-XGL6lbgLIQZgm7J5z-ViH2lB4o


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## paddy555 (20 March 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Your experience differs from mine and from what I see in other horses. My friend got away with minimal beds with geldings, but when she changed her geldings for mares the mares refused to lie down until she gave them a decent bed. 

My experience is that this is more normal that what you describe - desperate attempt to lie on whatever bed is available:

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/...J0XH7zPdf8L_rY-lum-XGL6lbgLIQZgm7J5z-ViH2lB4o

Click to expand...

my mare is also perfectly happy to lie down as well. I think we will have to agree to differ. Fortunately it is only the opinion of my horses that really matters to me. 

I really don't think my pictures show desperate horses nor anything cruel as suggested in this thread title. Desperate attempt is merely your own thoughts.  Far more important than what they lie on to me is clean beds and lack of dust and smell. 

The thing the I do think cruel having seen it many times before is either horses bedded with no matting and only 4 inches of bedding whereby they are soon down to the floor. Also horses whose beds are mucked out and left up during the day. When they are brought into the stables for short periods during the daytime they have nowhere to lie down.


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## d_morrow (20 March 2013)

My horse has been on box rest for 3 months due to a tendon injury. She is bedded on Aubiose on top of thick EVA mats (and FWIW it is very easy maintenance and there is no smell - except when you dig out the wet, of course). 
Every day I remove her rug and she has a roll - but if I put in a new bale (which I do once a week) she will have a second roll. Now WHY would she do that if she was indifferent to the type of bedding provided - as some people have claimed?


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## paddy555 (20 March 2013)

d_morrow said:



			My horse has been on box rest for 3 months due to a tendon injury. She is bedded on Aubiose on top of thick EVA mats (and FWIW it is very easy maintenance and there is no smell - except when you dig out the wet, of course). 
Every day I remove her rug and she has a roll - but if I put in a new bale (which I do once a week) she will have a second roll. Now WHY would she do that if she was indifferent to the type of bedding provided - as some people have claimed?
		
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my haflinger who has free access to the stables in the daytime will come in and have a roll on the mats. There will be no bedding on them.


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## MerrySherryRider (20 March 2013)

paddy555 said:



			Sorry I think it is far too easy to bring human views into it as to what you, rather than they, regard as a decent bed.
		
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I disagree with this. My management is based on observation, if I wanted to humanise them, I'd probably put a TV in the stable.

Its an old myth that horses are not nesting animals etc etc. so have no need or want for a deep bed.
While they do not make beds/nests as some mammals do, given the choice, our herd would lie on the hay from a round bale in the field. 
 They aren't daft, bedding gives warmth, its more comfortable and a decent bed enables them to stay dry and prevent skin infections. They aren't oblivious to looking after their coats.


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## paddy555 (20 March 2013)

horserider said:



			I disagree with this. My management is based on observation, if I wanted to humanise them, I'd probably put a TV in the stable.


 They aren't daft, bedding gives warmth, its more comfortable and a decent bed enables them to stay dry and prevent skin infections. They aren't oblivious to looking after their coats.
		
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absolutely and those are the precise reasons I chose the fieldguard mats. Especially the comfort and warmth factor plus the draining of the urine. 
When I first matted them I had a 28yr old. He had never been on mats before. He had a deep litter bed and the usual ageing, stiffness, arthritis etc. We spent a lot of time contemplating how much longer we should let him go on. 
Not only did he take to the mats with no problems he improved and managed to go on for another 3 years. They provided far more comfort for him that his previous deep litter which we had thought the most comfortable bed we could make for him. We were suprised at the improvements. Now 20 years and quite a few old horses later we have seen this repeated several times. 
I would point out that these are not the harsh, firm 6 x 4 mats. The ones we have are much more comfortable and provide good insulation. 
I can vouch for that having spent many a night on them looking after various animals.


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## d_morrow (20 March 2013)

Paddy555 - I'm not saying that a horse would not roll on bare mats - just that the more comfortable the bed, the more they appreciate it. As Horserider says - they're not daft.


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## TGM (21 March 2013)

paddy555 said:



			absolutely and those are the precise reasons I chose the fieldguard mats. Especially the comfort and warmth factor plus the draining of the urine. 
...
I would point out that these are not the harsh, firm 6 x 4 mats. The ones we have are much more comfortable and provide good insulation. 
I can vouch for that having spent many a night on them looking after various animals.
		
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I think this is what some of the people commenting on here don't understand, as they are judging on the basis of the normal rubber mats they have seen or used.  I use the same mats as you, the Fieldguard M2 mats, which are held off the floor by little rubber legs.  This means the mats are not a hard unyielding surface to lie on but quite squidgy like a firm mattress.


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## Cinnamontoast (21 March 2013)

Loving the pictures of lying down horses! More, please!

I think what everyone has ignored on here is that horses are individuals. I prefer a firm bed, others may like a softer surface. I can't sit on a normal chair, I prefer being propped up in my lazyboy.


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## paddy555 (21 March 2013)

cinnamontoast said:



			Loving the pictures of lying down horses! More, please!
		
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this is for you cinnamontoast.

 Please understand everyone before you comment that I have not put down 4 inches of bedding on top  of the carpet as it was really not practical to do this in my sitting room. The pony had a choice whether he wished to lie down or not. He did this every evening.


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## Cinnamontoast (21 March 2013)

Ha, mad lady with pony in lounge again, brilliant! Why did you have a pony in your house?!


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## PolarSkye (21 March 2013)

paddy555 said:



			this is for you cinnamontoast.

 Please understand everyone before you comment that I have not put down 4 inches of bedding on top  of the carpet as it was really not practical to do this in my sitting room. The pony had a choice whether he wished to lie down or not. He did this every evening. 






Click to expand...

Ha!  If I did this with Kal he'd roll, thus knocking all the ornaments, etc. on the mantlepiece flying, not to mention the mess he'd make of my cream sofa . . . but I'd LOVE to have a pic of him lying in front of the fire .

P


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## TGM (21 March 2013)

Fantastic photo!

Now do you think your pony prefers to lie on the carpet in your house or on the mats in his stable?  If the former, I think it would be cruel not to give him what he obviously prefers, so you should let him sleep in the house permanently!


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## paddy555 (21 March 2013)

TGM said:



			Fantastic photo!

Now do you think your pony prefers to lie on the carpet in your house or on the mats in his stable?  If the former, I think it would be cruel not to give him what he obviously prefers, so you should let him sleep in the house permanently!
		
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OMG!!! now I am in a real panic about potential cruelty. 
I hadn't thought of that. Have I been depriving him? Should the RSPCA be summoned? 
I only let him come in as he was lonely. He came in at suppertime and stood behind me watching the computer screen then he started lying down. 
He did like looking at the computer screen. Will I need to wire the stables for broadband? 




And now I have another problem, wish I hadn't come on this thread as I am so worried. Is this little chap saying that he  doesn't like the mats either and that he wants to sleep in a bed? If so what sort of matress do you suggest? firm, soft? shavings or no shavings? 
 this horse keeping is doing my head in.


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## Cinnamontoast (21 March 2013)

I think start with wifi throughout the stable block then at the very least, a foam mattress topper just as a trial. Possibly some scatter cushions for a finishing touch? Maybe the ones with tassels so he can pick them up and rearrange them more easily.


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## paddy555 (21 March 2013)

cinnamontoast said:



			I think start with wifi throughout the stable block then at the very least, a foam mattress topper just as a trial. Possibly some scatter cushions for a finishing touch? Maybe the ones with tassels so he can pick them up and rearrange them more easily.
		
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very good 
the foam mattress topper is brilliant as we have now solved the other poster's concerns about putting a decent bed on my mats. 
Isn't HHO just brilliant. So helpful


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## MerrySherryRider (21 March 2013)

Well, I don't care. A mattress is all well and good but you still need bedding on it.....

A nice duvet with linen sheets or flannelette perhaps. 
But I'm liking the suggestion of cushions with tassels.


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## amandap (21 March 2013)

paddy555 said:



			=



And now I have another problem, wish I hadn't come on this thread as I am so worried. Is this little chap saying that he  doesn't like the mats either and that he wants to sleep in a bed? If so what sort of matress do you suggest? firm, soft? shavings or no shavings? 
 this horse keeping is doing my head in. 






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He definitely wants to sleep in a bed, and not just any bed... YOURS lol Good job those mats are comfy. rofl.


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## Cinnamontoast (22 March 2013)

horserider said:



			Well, I don't care. A mattress is all well and good but you still need bedding on it.....

A nice duvet with linen sheets or flannelette perhaps.
		
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Indeed, preferably 1000 thread count Egyptian cotton. Super kingsize,obviously.


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## Honey08 (22 March 2013)

Thank you so much for those pics of horses in the house.  I had been running round trying to get the cats in as it was starting to snow, and hubby was teasing me for being too soft, saying why didn't I go and get the horses inside too, then those pictures appeared!!  I showed them to him, saying other people do!  He declared us all mad horsey people that want locking up!


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