# Considering Dressage,  at the highest level.



## Alec Swan (18 August 2015)

Is it just me,  or are these horses becoming little more than performing circus horses?  I watched the display on the TV on Sunday,  and was saddened at what seemed to me anyway,  to be such a severity of discipline,  that most appeared be almost be taking part in a freak show.  I didn't see one horse which looked comfortable,  not one.

I must be wrong,  because the discipline attracts huge audiences,  but I wonder if the displays are any better from some of the American purpose bred horses which are ridden in a way that will display such unnatural gaits,  and almost party tricks.

Alec.


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## madlady (18 August 2015)

Alec I totally agree.

From watching on the BBC on Sunday I saw 2 horses who looked relaxed (in comparison to the others) and who looked to be enjoying (for want of a better word) what they were doing, one was Valegro and the other was the lovely chestnut ridden by the spanish rider (both names escape me for now)

I went to watch the Spanish riding school when they were on tour over here - the difference in how the horses moved was amazing.  It was natural, free flowing, not tense and a joy to watch (I thought).

Equally I've watched lower level (RC) dressage and found that much better viewing that what I saw on Sunday - some of which made me uncomfortable.


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## AdorableAlice (18 August 2015)

I also agree.  The need/want to have the best will never change though.  Look at any equine sport, watching top level showjumping makes me wince, those horses are at the very limit of what is physically possible.  Racing, the TB's are now bred so light of bone to achieve more speed that they look like stick insects.  Perhaps a rule should be made - no spurs, fulmer snaffle only, no running reins etc, but the tests remain the same.

How the top level horses are kept sound is beyond me.


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## Goldenstar (18 August 2015)

I think modern competitive dressage at the highest level is best compared to gymnastics or ballet in humans the feats are almost unnatural when you compare them to the more run of the mill human or horse .
I dislike the fact that the format of the modern chamionship competition leaves these very forward willing to work horses looking jaded by the time they get to the Kur.
The demands of the horses at the highest level when you add in travelling long distances  performing in extreme heat in some countries favours the hotter temperaments and the younger horses I think this can mean there's a bigger rush to get horses to Grand Prix than there was .
There's no doult that the hotter the horse the more likely their brain is going to carry them forward when tired but this type of horse often shows undesirable tension .
Bred to be sharp to be very forward to be very trainable then hauled round the world to perform I am not sure life is very kind to these horses no matter how kind and ethical their human support team is .
As we have bred horses to be more athletic and have more uphill conformation with the hock more under them the more they can do but I had a very interesting conversation with a FEI vet recently they think the prevalence of injury now is linked to this conformation particularly in the hock which in nature is never set under the horse as it is in the modern warm blood.
Are we doing to some horses what has been done to some breeds of dogs ?
In a sense it is 'tricks ' just like gymnasts do ' tricks ' I don't think it's necessarily a probelm to admit that .
It's a rarified sport at the top end as equivalent to comparing the ballet to me dancing when you compare it to everyday type horses and riders .


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## Goldenstar (18 August 2015)

AdorableAlice said:



			How the top level horses are kept sound is beyond me.
		
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I suspect Tildren and lots of joint injections.


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## ihatework (18 August 2015)

There are aspects of competitive dressage that really concern me.
That said there are aspects of most equestrian sports that also concern me, especially horse racing and showing


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## KautoStar1 (18 August 2015)

At the highest levels I think british dressage has come a long way.  Carl Hester&#8217;s way of training and managing his horses is now proving itself and many have cottoned onto that more sympathetic approach to training.  We have also been lucky to have Valegro to showcase his talents, not just as a rider but also as a trainer,  in perhaps a way that wasn&#8217;t so obvious outside of the dressage inner circle.  
But these horses are bred and over bred to be hot and sensitive and the skill of someone like Carl is to find a way to allow the expressiveness to come through without over boiling and you will see from his riding of Nip Tuck on Sunday, that he forsook some of that extravagance and expression to keep the horse as relaxed as possible in order to create a better long term experience for this horse.
Valegro is a bit of a freak of nature, but I think its fair to say even he struggled on Sunday in the kur.  It was not the best performance we have seen from him and whether the nature of the competition structure has a part to play in that I don&#8217;t know, whether it&#8217;s the physical demands or the mental demands of such a high pressure atmosphere.  It must take its toll surely, even on the most seasoned campaigner.  I guess this is why we see Carls horses so infrequently, they are carefully placed to limit the demands of competition with the aim of keeping them sound and healthy for the longer term.  

But is it any worse than show jumping, where horses are now jumping ridiculously huge jumps, strapped down in the most hideous bit / martingale contraptions or racing where TB&#8217;s are now so interbred that they have no bone, no substance and no longevity.   Horses of any discipline that don&#8217;t get turned out at all or enough.  Show horses and ponies that are so fat they wobble round the ring.  Or some of the numpty general public that have horses and have no idea how to ride or care for them.  The list is endless when you think about it.


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## Cortez (18 August 2015)

I stopped watching modern competitive dressage years ago. It makes uncomfortable viewing for anyone who apreciates horses. 

Dressage as a sport has lost it's way and ethical, kind training seems to have been cast aside in pursuit of ever more extravagant "expressive" (expressing what?) movement. Shameful.


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## Wheels (18 August 2015)

Yes agree! I'm getting to the point now where I struggle to watch the overbent piaffes, the non tracking up extended trots, the no longer can be called canter pirouettes


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## Wheels (18 August 2015)

And the fact that horses can achieve 9s and 10s for the above movements when they are so clearly not correct!!

And don't get me started on 4 beat trots and 4 beat canters - I have heard some people say that rules should be changed because horses that are truly built uphill will always canter 4 beat at least in slo mo so let's update the rule book to say 4 beat canters are OK where I totally disagree and think we should stop breeding freaks of nature that can't trot or canter properly


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## SpringArising (18 August 2015)

KautoStar1 said:



			At the highest levels I think british dressage has come a long way.  Carl Hester&#8217;s way of training and managing his horses is now proving itself and many have cottoned onto that more sympathetic approach to training.
		
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Wouldn't exactly class him as sympathetic. Can't remember where, but I remember him saying publicly years ago that he's not afraid to give a horse a good hiding if it's playing up. Coming from someone who is hugely influential & a role model for a lot of younger people - nice.


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## tristar (18 August 2015)

I`ve thought for a long time they look like performing seals in a sad circus.


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## Alec Swan (18 August 2015)

I'm not alone,  it seems!  In any sport,  be it motor racing where cars and drivers are both playing permanent catch-up with each other,  in the efficiency stakes,  or in an equine sport,  where it seems that the animals are permanently on the back foot (figuratively!),  so I wonder if we aren't asking too much from an animal which despite the levels of breeding and research in to their physiology,  we continue to seek out fresh medications and fuels,  and forget that it's only an animal.

The very same thing can be said of racing and endurance riding,  for some.  The ME approach to endurance work is to wring the very last drop of effort and ability out of a horse,  and then discard it as there are others coming along.  I suspect that though flat racing here isn't as bad as the ME efforts,  we none the less continue to demand more from the horse,  and forget that it is only a horse,  and that however clever we think we are,  we are still using the basic animal and one which hasn't really altered or kept up with the times or our demands.

I will be honest,  and accepting that I don't even ride(!),  none the less the future of all our top level equine sports worries me.

Alec.


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## Clare85 (18 August 2015)

Two things concern me about the situation:

1) the welfare of the horses who are at the top level, their long term soundness and mental health will be affected by having to perform with such tension and unnatural gait.

2) the example it is setting for riders/trainers at the lower levels. You see all too often people riding around hanging onto the front end of their horses for dear life whilst jabbing them in the sides with spurs. When I was at PC, they never mentioned outline - the key was to get your pony/horse moving forwards and enjoying itself, so you were having fun together.

Sad


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## KautoStar1 (18 August 2015)

SpringArising said:



			Wouldn't exactly class him as sympathetic. Can't remember where, but I remember him saying publicly years ago that he's not afraid to give a horse a good hiding if it's playing up. Coming from someone who is hugely influential & a role model for a lot of younger people - nice.
		
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I can&#8217;t comment on what CH may or may not have said as I don&#8217;t know, didn&#8217;t hear him say it or what he said and the context it was said in.
My point, although maybe not very well put, was that in general Carl&#8217;s horses, even the vet hot ones such as Nip Tuck and Dances with Wolves, are ridden in tests in a sympathetic way to try to get the best out of them, which at times will be to the detriment of &#8220;expression&#8221;, but to give a softer more harmonious, accurate result.  Compared say to Glocks Undercover who looks like a coiled spring, tense, tight and unhappy.  As do many of the dutch and german trained horses.  There is quite a visible difference.  If you look at the soft sympathetic riding of Carl, Charlotte and Fiona at the weekend, which to me at least, was much nicer to watch,  vs.  EG or HPM for example.  And a few years ago, this sort of riding was being rewarded.  In truth Charlotte won her kur gold at London 2012, not because she did a complicated difficult routine like Adelinde to gain high artistic marks &#8211; for instance tempi changes on a circle, one handed &#8211; but because she rode a sympathetic correct test and the judges rewarded correct training and correct movement of the horse eg correct sequence of footfall, softness through the body, etc etc.

All of a sudden we&#8217;re back to flashy front end movement, tight tense necks &#8211; agreed not nice at all.


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## KautoStar1 (18 August 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			I'm not alone,  it seems!  In any sport,  be it motor racing where cars and drivers are both playing permanent catch-up with each other,  in the efficiency stakes,  or in an equine sport,  where it seems that the animals are permanently on the back foot (figuratively!),  so I wonder if we aren't asking too much from an animal which despite the levels of breeding and research in to their physiology,  we continue to seek out fresh medications and fuels,  and forget that it's only an animal.

The very same thing can be said of racing and endurance riding,  for some.  The ME approach to endurance work is to wring the very last drop of effort and ability out of a horse,  and then discard it as there are others coming along.  I suspect that though flat racing here isn't as bad as the ME efforts,  we none the less continue to demand more from the horse,  and forget that it is only a horse,  and that however clever we think we are,  we are still using the basic animal and one which hasn't really altered or kept up with the times or our demands.

I will be honest,  and accepting that I don't even ride(!),  none the less the future of all our top level equine sports worries me.

Alec.
		
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I don't disagree with any of this Alec.    In fact, it seems that now competing is the sole reason people ride these days.  Compete to win and nothing less will do.


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## Old Bat (18 August 2015)

Totally agree.


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## Simon Battram (18 August 2015)

Wheels - the rules re canter pirouette have already been changed to allow the 4 beat canter:

"In the pirouette or half pirouette in the canter, the Judges should be able to recognise a real canter stride although the feet of the diagonal - the inside hindleg, outside front leg - are not touching the ground simultaneously."

So apparently now a 4 beat canter is still a real canter stride.....plain wrong in my opinion.


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## Goldenstar (18 August 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			I'm not alone,  it seems!  In any sport,  be it motor racing where cars and drivers are both playing permanent catch-up with each other,  in the efficiency stakes,  or in an equine sport,  where it seems that the animals are permanently on the back foot (figuratively!),  so I wonder if we aren't asking too much from an animal which despite the levels of breeding and research in to their physiology,  we continue to seek out fresh medications and fuels,  and forget that it's only an animal.

The very same thing can be said of racing and endurance riding,  for some.  The ME approach to endurance work is to wring the very last drop of effort and ability out of a horse,  and then discard it as there are others coming along.  I suspect that though flat racing here isn't as bad as the ME efforts,  we none the less continue to demand more from the horse,  and forget that it is only a horse,  and that however clever we think we are,  we are still using the basic animal and one which hasn't really altered or kept up with the times or our demands.

I will be honest,  and accepting that I don't even ride(!),  none the less the future of all our top level equine sports worries me.

Alec.
		
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KautoStar1 said:



			I don't disagree with any of this Alec.    In fact, it seems that now competing is the sole reason people ride these days.  Compete to win and nothing less will do.
		
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I don't agree with you on the ride to compete thing my horseyfriends spilt about half and half .
And a fair few who go to low level competitions truly just for fun.


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## KautoStar1 (18 August 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			I don't agree with you on the ride to compete thing my horseyfriends spilt about half and half .
And a fair few who go to low level competitions truly just for fun.
		
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I was generalising a little bit GS and basing it on quite a lot of the people I know who ride.  The thought of going for a nice long hack in the countryside, just for the thrill of being out in the open enjoying down time with their horses sends them into panic.  Off hacking again they ask me.  Yup, I like it, my horse likes it and we both get the best out of each other that way.


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## tristar (18 August 2015)

the canter pirouette has always been 4 time to classically trained horses, as far as I know anyway.

Alec, the fact that you don`t ride probably gives you an advantage, you have an innocent and unbiased eye, I often ask people who don`t ride what they think of a horse, it can be very interesting because they don`t seem to see technicalities, they see the overall impression.


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## tristar (18 August 2015)

wheels says lets stop breeding freaks, I agree, what was I,t long legs etc, the mind boggles.


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## Simon Battram (18 August 2015)

tristar said:



			the canter pirouette has always been 4 time to classically trained horses, as far as I know anyway.
		
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No it has not; 3 beat canter for the pirouette. However classically speaking the old masters used to have more variation in the paces than we do today. For example to gain the piaffe they made the walk into the School Walk, a 2 beat walk (diagonal never lateral) and then added the energy and gained the piaffe. The canter went from 3 beat to 4 beat and then to the 2 beat 'terre a terre' which you can still see today as a pre-cursor before the airs above the ground.


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## elliefiz (18 August 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			I'm not alone,  it seems!  In any sport,  be it motor racing where cars and drivers are both playing permanent catch-up with each other,  in the efficiency stakes,  or in an equine sport,  where it seems that the animals are permanently on the back foot (figuratively!),  so I wonder if we aren't asking too much from an animal which despite the levels of breeding and research in to their physiology,  we continue to seek out fresh medications and fuels,  and forget that it's only an animal.

The very same thing can be said of racing and endurance riding,  for some.  The ME approach to endurance work is to wring the very last drop of effort and ability out of a horse,  and then discard it as there are others coming along.  I suspect that though flat racing here isn't as bad as the ME efforts,  we none the less continue to demand more from the horse,  and forget that it is only a horse,  and that however clever we think we are,  we are still using the basic animal and one which hasn't really altered or kept up with the times or our demands.

I will be honest,  and accepting that I don't even ride(!),  none the less the future of all our top level equine sports worries me.

Alec.
		
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Completely agree Alec. Unfortunately the FEI's handling of endurance riding and the ME doesn't bode well for them addressing the problems within dressage. I also rarely ride anymore due to lack of time. but like you I do breed and as a result the future of equine sports concerns me. The Olympic committee has been trying to drop equestrianism for many years now, I won't be surprised if the Aachen disaster doesn't give them further ammunition. The RK incident has been widely reported in Europe in mainstream newspapers such as Der Welt, not exactly enamouring the public towards dressage as a nice sport to watch. Of course the problems don't start and end in dressage, show jumping at the highest levels has its dirty secrets as I'm sure most top level sports do. But when the welfare of an animal is involved how can we (as the collective public) turn a blind eye?


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## Goldenstar (18 August 2015)

All top level sports are at risk of adversely effecting the horses welfare .
As is the keeping of horses on poor quality yards with rotten turn out , working horses on poor surfaces , giving them insufficient exercise , letting them get too fat or too thin  . Letting improperly qualified ' therapists ' 'treat' lame horses , tolerating the appalling shoeing standards that you see at any show you go to I could go on and on and on and on .
No where, no part, no equine activity has the moral high ground here .
You will find bad practise everywhere at every level.


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## elliefiz (18 August 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			All top level sports are at risk of adversely effecting the horses welfare .
As is the keeping of horses on poor quality yards with rotten turn out , working horses on poor surfaces , giving them insufficient exercise , letting them get too fat or too thin  . Letting improperly qualified ' therapists ' 'treat' lame horses , tolerating the appalling shoeing standards that you see at any show you go to I could go on and on and on and on .
No where, no part, no equine activity has the moral high ground here .
You will find bad practise everywhere at every level.
		
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Completely agree. But the difference is top level athletes in every sport are publicly lauded, rewarded handsomely for their efforts and considered role models. If cruelty and wrong doings are so casually accepted at top level then what hope for everyone else? Ignorance is to blame for a lot of cruelty that happens at the most basic levels. The same excuse can't be used at the highest levels.


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## SpringArising (18 August 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			All top level sports are at risk of adversely effecting the horses welfare. No where, no part, no equine activity has the moral high ground here .
You will find bad practise everywhere at every level.
		
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elliefiz said:



			Completely agree. But the difference is top level athletes in every sport are publicly lauded, rewarded handsomely for their efforts and considered role models. If cruelty and wrong doings are so casually accepted at top level then what hope for everyone else? Ignorance is to blame for a lot of cruelty that happens at the most basic levels. The same excuse can't be used at the highest levels.
		
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Completely agree. And just because abuse happens across the board in all our disciplines, that doesn't mean we should accept it as the norm and try to bury our heads in the sand. The change needs to start somewhere, whether that be dressage, SJ, gymkhanas or polo!


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## Goldenstar (18 August 2015)

Ignorance is not an excuse never has so much information been available so easily .
Yet I see things that make my hair curl all the time .
My pet thing is the tide ...no tsunami of equine misery being caused by bad shoeing .
The horse cares not one jot whether it is a world beater worth millions or a a hacking horse kept for pleasure and to  the horse it's no different.


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## tristar (18 August 2015)

quote; the pirouette lose all its value when it is done by a horse who is unable to do a collected canter in 4 times, unquote nuno oliviera.

I`m sure there is someone on here who knows better


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (18 August 2015)

SpringArising said:



			Wouldn't exactly class him as sympathetic. Can't remember where, but I remember him saying publicly years ago that he's not afraid to give a horse a good hiding if it's playing up. Coming from someone who is hugely influential & a role model for a lot of younger people - nice.
		
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and your problem is? a horse truly playing up will benefit from a short sharp shock, in the same way as a kid playing up will.

too many people think discipline is a dirty word hence the proliferation of bolshy mummies little darlings in both the equine and child sense....................

i think this a daft accusation to be throwing around tbh.


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## Cortez (18 August 2015)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			and your problem is? a horse truly playing up will benefit from a short sharp shock, in the same way as a kid playing up will.

too many people think discipline is a dirty word hence the proliferation of bolshy mummies little darlings in both the equine and child sense....................

i think this a daft accusation to be throwing around tbh.
		
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Agree with this^^^


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## SpringArising (18 August 2015)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			and your problem is? a horse truly playing up will benefit from a short sharp shock, in the same way as a kid playing up will.

too many people think discipline is a dirty word hence the proliferation of bolshy mummies little darlings in both the equine and child sense....................

i think this a daft accusation to be throwing around tbh.
		
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Where's the accusation? The words came from his own mouth.

And please read properly next time. No one said anything about a short, sharp shock. I said a hiding, which means a beating. Might be acceptable for you but not for me.


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## Caol Ila (18 August 2015)

Yeah, but it's some out of context hearsay comment you remember hearing him say somewhere but can't give us the source for.  Pretty lousy grounds to buy the allegations that someone treats their animals badly.


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## Flame_ (18 August 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			All top level sports are at risk of adversely effecting the horses welfare .
As is the keeping of horses on poor quality yards with rotten turn out , working horses on poor surfaces , giving them insufficient exercise , letting them get too fat or too thin  . Letting improperly qualified ' therapists ' 'treat' lame horses , tolerating the appalling shoeing standards that you see at any show you go to I could go on and on and on and on .
No where, no part, no equine activity has the moral high ground here .
You will find bad practise everywhere at every level.
		
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You have a point but lower level equine activities do have some moral high ground, IMHO. Exercise and activity is beneficial to horses. They're designed to move and move they should to stay strong, sound, healthy and happy. The mental and physical pressure of training at top level is not beneficial to horses, it is extreme stress, wear and tear, and something only a select few can just about stand up to.


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## Marydoll (18 August 2015)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			and your problem is? a horse truly playing up will benefit from a short sharp shock, in the same way as a kid playing up will.

too many people think discipline is a dirty word hence the proliferation of bolshy mummies little darlings in both the equine and child sense....................

i think this a daft accusation to be throwing around tbh.
		
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Couldnt agree more, swift fair dicipline can prevent many problems starting and nip some in the bud


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## Bojingles (19 August 2015)

This is an interesting view...http://epona.tv/dressage-astray-part-one


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## OwnedbyJoe (19 August 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			I suspect Tildren and lots of joint injections.
		
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I worked with a vet who was in the veterinary barn at the 2000 Olympics. Let's just say she came back very jaded. The reason these top horses are clipped all year round is because then when they inject a joint, they don't have to leave a suspicious clipped section at the site... And of course joint injections don't swab.


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## Caol Ila (19 August 2015)

Are joint injections so terrible?  I used to inject the hocks of my old quarter horse; she was getting arthritic changes and it kept her comfortable for a couple more years of Training and First Level dressage.  Because we were in the mountains and all the trail riding involved steep hills, even the trail riders got them done if their horses really started struggling and looking uncomfortable on the hills.  It prolonged the careers of a lot of horses.  

In the US, there is very much a culture of over-using joint injections.  There are people who use them for preventative purposes, and vets will tell you that there's no evidence they prevent arthritis.  I would not go that route.

In any event, given that I used them to keep my very low level dressage horse going and I had many friends who did the same for their Training level horses and happy hackers, I can't sit here and cast stones at international GP riders who do the same.


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## Piaffe123 (19 August 2015)

OwnedbyJoe said:



			I worked with a vet who was in the veterinary barn at the 2000 Olympics. Let's just say she came back very jaded. The reason these top horses are clipped all year round is because then when they inject a joint, they don't have to leave a suspicious clipped section at the site... And of course joint injections don't swab.
		
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I am not sure I agree that joint injections are the evil treatment you're implying, or that this is the sole reason top horses are clipped.

A friend of mine is a competitive dressage rider and her horse has joint injections and is clipped all year round. She has joint injections because of an old injury caused in the field (shock yes this hard working dressage horse is turned out) and the joint injections keep her comfortable to work despite arthritic changes occuring. She is clipped all year round because she works hard and gets hot, it has nothing to do with the joint injections.

IMO if a joint injection is being used to give a horse a few more years working then I don't see a problem with them? Yes you can argue that some of these changes have come about as a result of ill treatment or over work into unnatural paces but frequently, as is the case with my friend, the arthritic changes are a result of something more natural. She'd have had that accident in the field whether she was a happy hacker or a dressage horse and she'd need the injections to keep her comfortable either way as well.

For the record, I am also losing faith in top level dressage. Watching Carl, Charlotte and Fiona is a breath of fresh air when you've watched tense and uncomfortable looking horses. This is why I like watching Valegro, he looks willing to do his work but many many others do not.


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## Sags_Deer (19 August 2015)

sadly like all sport it has got very money based and thus riders will do anything to get and stay at the top


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## HufflyPuffly (19 August 2015)

I think the issue with joint injections (which I'm not against as my veteran has had them) is that you are medicating a comprimised joint with something which is not detected in dope testing. If an oral anti-inflammatory was used it would be against rules as it would be detectable, whereas a steroid injection appears to be allowed as it is not. I'm assuming we're talking about steroid injections here!
My oldie is retired from competition so a none moral issue for me, but I'm not sure I would be comfortable with the notion of injecting to continue competing.

As to the main topic at hand, there will always be those who will try 'anything' to get to the top and if a method is proven to work then I can see why they would continue.


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## OwnedbyJoe (20 August 2015)

Sorry, should have been clearer..
They were injecting with cortisone, not with Pentosan. And as AlexHyde has said, steroid injections into joints are not detectable on blood tests, whereas systemic injections are.
Most of these horses would also be getting preventive Pentosan weekly as an IM injection, which is fine IMO. but cortisnoe in joints is a different kettle of fish...


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## Simon Battram (20 August 2015)

tristar said:



			quote; the pirouette lose all its value when it is done by a horse who is unable to do a collected canter in 4 times, unquote nuno oliviera.

I`m sure there is someone on here who knows better
		
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You are misunderstanding the difference. Nuno was talking about the rider being able to collect the canter to 4 beat on their aids as opposed to the canter going 4 beat because the horse entered an exercise. Big difference.

Also Nuno Oliveira is not the only classical school so there are various opinions. The Spanish Riding School have existed for longer and have a deeper history and they advocate 3 beat canter for the pirouette.


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## conniegirl (20 August 2015)

OwnedbyJoe said:



			Sorry, should have been clearer..
They were injecting with cortisone, not with Pentosan. And as AlexHyde has said, steroid injections into joints are not detectable on blood tests, whereas systemic injections are.
Most of these horses would also be getting preventive Pentosan weekly as an IM injection, which is fine IMO. but cortisnoe in joints is a different kettle of fish...
		
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Corticosteroids are very different from anabolic steroids.

I have no problems with horses requiring corticosteroids to aid joint mobility and health. My 6 yr old has to have them every 3 months in order to stay sound as he has artheritis. Cortico steroids are also commonly used to fix mild kissing spines.


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## tristar (20 August 2015)

simon battram, I didn't misunderstand, it was a direct quote, and before in my first post I said ` as far as I know,` not that it was written in stone.

as you say there are different schools, in the same way there is the german school and the dutch school who use rollkur to some extent.


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## Steorra (20 August 2015)

Dr Hilary Clayton has done some interesting work on footfall analysis in canter pirouettes. Her findings back Tristar's point: that the rhythm is four beat. Of 11 dressage horses videod in the 1992 Olympic games, none produced a three-beat pirouette. 

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.2042-3306.1997.tb05055.x/abstract


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## ycbm (20 August 2015)

conniegirl said:



			Corticosteroids are very different from anabolic steroids.

I have no problems with horses requiring corticosteroids to aid joint mobility and health. My 6 yr old has to have them every 3 months in order to stay sound as he has artheritis. Cortico steroids are also commonly used to fix mild kissing spines.
		
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  'aiding joint mobility and health' in this context means 'medicating joint failure'   Surely the horse which wins an affiliated competition should do that without joint medication?  If they were detectable, surely they would be banned?  And if not, why is bute used for exactly the same anti inflammatory purpose not allowed?


On another note, I had no idea these horses were clipped out legs and all in summer,  and someone is suggesting this is because they get hot. Since the vast majority of eventers do cross country in the hottest weather without being clipped, and most clipped horses never have their legs clipped, that's a very odd explanation.


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## OwnedbyJoe (21 August 2015)

Systemic cortisone to do the same job (keeping a horse sound) would be detectable on a blood test and therefore not allowed. Putting the same compound directly into a joint is not detectable.
I don't think horses which require cortisone in any form to stay sound should be competing. Cortisone does NOT "aid joint mobility and health", it is an anti inflammatory, no more, and may in fact be detrimental to joint health.
Conniegirl, as a vet, I am quite clear on the difference between cortisone and anabolic steroids thank you, and on the different actions of joint support medications and cortisone.

This is from "GUIDE TO THE USE AND AUTHORISATION OF VETERINARY TREATMENT DURING
AN FEI EVENT":

The use of a Prohibited Substances may only be authorised for treatment during an event in exceptional circumstances (FEI General Regulations Article 143 and Veterinary Regulations).
For example, this might include the use of a local anaesthetic to suture a small laceration.
However, intra-articular injections, the use of non-steroidal anti- inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs) or conditions requiring repeated treatments will not be authorised.
Whereas it would appear they are in fact happening (or at least they were at that Olympic games).


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## Pigeon (21 August 2015)

ycbm said:



			Surely the horse which wins an affiliated competition should do that without joint medication?  If they were detectable, surely they would be banned?
		
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I think that would wipe out about 70% of the field. Maybe even more.


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## fburton (21 August 2015)

Cortez said:



			Dressage as a sport has lost it's way and ethical, kind training seems to have been cast aside in pursuit of ever more extravagant "expressive" (expressing what?) movement. Shameful.
		
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Dressage is just another example of where something - in this case extravagance of movement - is considered good and therefore more of it must be better. Well, it just ain't so!


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## ycbm (21 August 2015)

Pigeon said:



			I think that would wipe out about 70% of the field. Maybe even more.
		
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Well now we know from a vet quoting the FEI regulations that they ARE banned, so that would mean that seventy per cent of the field, maybe more, are cheating.

If true, this is shameful


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## HufflyPuffly (21 August 2015)

The use of joint injections is something I find very hard to swallow. My oldie was retired from competitions because of her cushings medication, which has very limited evidence of being performance enhancing but is still banned but I could inject her fetlocks as much as I wanted...

Just truely bonkers in my opinion!

x x


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## Wheels (21 August 2015)

Steorra said:



			Dr Hilary Clayton has done some interesting work on footfall analysis in canter pirouettes. Her findings back Tristar's point: that the rhythm is four beat. Of 11 dressage horses videod in the 1992 Olympic games, none produced a three-beat pirouette. 

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.2042-3306.1997.tb05055.x/abstract

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This really backs up the fact that dressage horses of today are not producing correct paces. Now even more so than the 90s. Back then we maybe needed slow motion to see 4 beat and maybe if you slow it down enough you might find all horses do 4 beat pirouettes (or maybe not) but the judges are judging by the naked eye so canter should look 3 beat but many even to the naked eye are 4 beat and I'm not just meaning pirouettes, that is what is scary, that is what in another 20 years time will be really freaky horses and that is what will ultimately end in horses with really messed up bodies and scary vets bills just as has happened with some of the dog breeds. 

Will we never learn?


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## rara007 (21 August 2015)

ycbm said:



			Well now we know from a vet quoting the FEI regulations that they ARE banned, so that would mean that seventy per cent of the field, maybe more, are cheating.

If true, this is shameful 

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They're only banned during the competition, most of this 70% will have them done at home regularly but not actually mid event.


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## rara007 (21 August 2015)

I also don't think it's possible for any neurologically normal horse to do a canter piri in 3 time?


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## Wheels (21 August 2015)

What about normal canter rara?


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## rara007 (21 August 2015)

http://www.centaurbiomechanics.co.u...co-uk/_img/Horse and Hound Canter Article.pdf


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## Wheels (21 August 2015)

Yes I've seen that thanks. What is your opinion on the points raised in the article? Do you think we should aim to continue breeding horses with a four beat canter and change the rules to allow this and potentially end up with horses that cannot show a basic 3 beat gait - end up with freakshow circus dressage or should we be aiming to breed horses that have naturally correct gaits and improve them through dressage training?


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## Goldenstar (21 August 2015)

rara007 said:



			I also don't think it's possible for any neurologically normal horse to do a canter piri in 3 time?
		
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This is what I think too ,
As soon as cameras etc where good enough to show exactly what the horse does in a tight pirouette it was clear than the three beat pirouette was a myth .


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## rara007 (21 August 2015)

I don't have much on an opinion, I just don't think a 3 beat canter piri has ever been possible so it's not the best thing to base gait purity on. I only do elem on normal (gelding) ponies so stay in 3 beat- when it's not going wrong! I don't really feel I know enough to make a comment on the breeding and production of these elite horse. I can't see the big boys reversing their breeding and back crossing to get back to flatter movement though.
Maybe the 60s is too recent but certainly on the 1964 Olympic videos 4 time collection and piris were common.


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## Barnacle (21 August 2015)

I find where this argument has gone rather bizarre... A 4-beat canter isn't going to HARM any horse. This argument was, I thought, initially surrounding welfare - now it's "purity of gaits"? The "purity" of a gait is an entirely subjective human concept. Dressage is "made up". We ought to be careful not to confuse our concepts with the welfare of horses. Horses do plenty of 4-beat gaiting... Walk, gallop, all the ambling gaits... It's not a problem in itself. I think arguing over the aesthetics derails the thread completely and distracts from serious cocerns. The need for so many injections. The stressed state of many horses at competition. Rollkur.


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## Goldenstar (21 August 2015)

Barnacle said:



			I find where this argument has gone rather bizarre... A 4-beat canter isn't going to HARM any horse. This argument was, I thought, initially surrounding welfare - now it's "purity of gaits"? The "purity" of a gait is an entirely subjective human concept. Dressage is "made up". We ought to be careful not to confuse our concepts with the welfare of horses. Horses do plenty of 4-beat gaiting... Walk, gallop, all the ambling gaits... It's not a problem in itself. I think arguing over the aesthetics derails the thread completely and distracts from serious cocerns. The need for so many injections. The stressed state of many horses at competition. Rollkur.
		
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Your completely right , the principles of dressage are a human construct .
A horse with a incorrect gait can be a completely happy horse .
However I own a very very uphill horse with huge foreleg action breed naturally into him.
He is not built to stretch he finds it hard it's a feat of balance and athleticism for him to do it ,it's as hard for him to go LL and deep as it is for a built on the forehand cob to do piaffe . He is at risk of several conditions because of this most principally KS .
I do think there is a risk of going to far with specialist breeding and ending up where we are with some dog breeds .


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## Alec Swan (21 August 2015)

Barnacle said:



			I find where this argument has gone rather bizarre... A 4-beat canter isn't going to HARM any horse. This argument was, I thought, initially surrounding welfare - now it's "purity of gaits"? The "purity" of a gait is an entirely subjective human concept. Dressage is "made up". We ought to be careful not to confuse our concepts with the welfare of horses. Horses do plenty of 4-beat gaiting... Walk, gallop, all the ambling gaits... It's not a problem in itself. I think arguing over the aesthetics derails the thread completely and distracts from serious cocerns. The need for so many injections. The stressed state of many horses at competition. Rollkur.
		
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Not a wasted word.

Alec.


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## MotherOfChickens (21 August 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			Is it just me,  or are these horses becoming little more than performing circus horses?  I watched the display on the TV on Sunday,  and was saddened at what seemed to me anyway,  to be such a severity of discipline,  that most appeared be almost be taking part in a freak show.  I didn't see one horse which looked comfortable,  not one.
		
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no, I've not liked watching it for years-I don't even care to watch the GB riders currently although I think they have helped improve the image of the sport from a few years ago. Those big moving horses just leave me a bit cold tbh. I think there are concerns at top levels of all equestrian sports (I am a closet sjing fan) though wrt welfare etc. 

The only time I watch anything remotely lumped in with 'dressage' is when I am watching Working Equitation or the Portuguese School and high level WE is hard on the horses, there's no doubt. does look more fun though!


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## Fuzzypuff (21 August 2015)

Wow, so many assumptions and generalisations in this thread!!!

All this talk of injections and what they must be injecting - I don't doubt that they do inject, but which of you know for SURE what is injected and therefore the impact it has on the horse? What about all the leisure horses that are injected to keep them going, some without even a diagnosis? How about those ridden on bute?

Talk about clipping and how surely it MUST be for a sinister reason, it can't be because the horses get hot. Hell, maybe the riders think they look smarter clipped out?! I tell you what, the thought had crossed my mind to clip mine out all year as he does get hot, he is a dressage horse and has never had an injection save for his Flu and Tet in his life! Where are the stats to show most clipped horses don't have their legs clipped?!

Where are the studies to show:



Flame_ said:



			The mental and physical pressure of training at top level is not beneficial to horses, it is extreme stress, wear and tear, and something only a select few can just about stand up to.
		
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Where are studies showing that leisure horses are happier than competition horses? How is top competition worse than keeping a leisure horse in the field all week only to drag it out at the weekend to hare around the countryside or over a course of show jumps? 



Cortez said:



			I stopped watching modern competitive dressage years ago. It makes uncomfortable viewing for anyone who apreciates horses. 

Dressage as a sport has lost it's way and ethical, kind training seems to have been cast aside in pursuit of ever more extravagant "expressive" (expressing what?) movement. Shameful.
		
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On what are you basing your comments on - how do you know that there is now no ethical kind training compared to before? Are you saying that no-one who competes is kind or ethical in their training of their horses? Is training horses to be expressive by default unethical?!



Clare85 said:



			Two things concern me about the situation:

1) the welfare of the horses who are at the top level, their long term soundness and mental health will be affected by having to perform with such tension and unnatural gait.

2) the example it is setting for riders/trainers at the lower levels. You see all too often people riding around hanging onto the front end of their horses for dear life whilst jabbing them in the sides with spurs. When I was at PC, they never mentioned outline - the key was to get your pony/horse moving forwards and enjoying itself, so you were having fun together.

Sad
		
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Are ALL horses at the top level performing with "such tension and unnatural gait"? What is "unnatural"? 

So many comments with so little to back them up! And somehow this "competitive dressage" is so much worse than the fat cobs about to have a heart attack in the local show ring, laminitic ponies (many of which are laminitic because they have been turfed out on a field full of cow pasture!), leisure horses ridden with tight backs and in inverted outlines that go on to have kissing spines or leg injuries... the list goes on!

And on the second point, short of requiring licenses to allow for horse ownership, how exactly do you propose top dressage riders prevent ignorant people from making their own interpretation of what they are seeing and doing their own version? What about those who lob on all manner of gadgetry and point their horses at massive fences having paid no attention to conditioning and fitness to get to that point? 

I also find it bizarre that some people like to almost worship the word of the classical masters and anything different must be incorrect... who is to say what is correct? It is all the product of human perception. Given we have far more advanced science now are we not in a better position to ensure the welfare of horses compared to 10s or 100s of years ago? Or indeed to establish whether a canter is 3 or 4 beat? Just because something was decided upon earlier, does that necessarily make it more right?!


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## oldie48 (21 August 2015)

Thank you for posting this video, I found it really helpful, the comparative photos of horses were especially useful. I think it explains why I love to watch a horse like valegro whilst some horses look so uncomfortable performing at the highest level. We naturally look for symmetry and in some horses, it just isn't there. whilst judges continue to reward horses that do not move correctly or show tension, training methods won't change and breeders will continue to breed for "ever more" extravagant movement even if it distorts the symmetry of the horses movement. I thought the coverage of the FEI Europeans in this weeks H&H was interesting, Judy Harvey had sympathy for the panel judging Totilas at Aachen in front of a home crowd. Frankly, I don't, if you are prepared to reward a lame horse with over 81% rather than ring the bell to eliminate it, you are a big part of the problem in modern dressage and need to be removed!



Bojingles said:



			This is an interesting view...http://epona.tv/dressage-astray-part-one

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## Alec Swan (21 August 2015)

Fuzzypuff said:



			Wow, so many assumptions and generalisations in this thread!!!

&#8230;&#8230;..
		
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Do you feel able to offer unqualified support for those Dressage horses,  and their display of 'going',  which we see among the upper echelons of competition?  Do you feel that those who view such displays,  and feel disquiet at what they see,  have doubts and fears which are ill-founded?

Alec.


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## Cortez (21 August 2015)

Fuzzypuff said:



			Wow, so many assumptions and generalisations in this thread!!!

On what are you basing your comments on - how do you know that there is now no ethical kind training compared to before? Are you saying that no-one who competes is kind or ethical in their training of their horses? 




			I'm basing my comments on nearly 40 years of breeding, training, judging and competing dressage horses (20 years at FEI levels) on 3 continents and working with some top trainers ("names", many of them). I have seen some terrible things done to horses in the pursuit of competition glory. I have, of course, also seen some superb training, but most of THAT was not in competition environments.
		
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## LilacWillow (21 August 2015)

Fuzzypuff said:



			Wow, so many assumptions and generalisations in this thread!!!

All this talk of injections and what they must be injecting - I don't doubt that they do inject, but which of you know for SURE what is injected and therefore the impact it has on the horse? What about all the leisure horses that are injected to keep them going, some without even a diagnosis? How about those ridden on bute?

Talk about clipping and how surely it MUST be for a sinister reason, it can't be because the horses get hot. Hell, maybe the riders think they look smarter clipped out?! I tell you what, the thought had crossed my mind to clip mine out all year as he does get hot, he is a dressage horse and has never had an injection save for his Flu and Tet in his life! Where are the stats to show most clipped horses don't have their legs clipped?!

Where are the studies to show:



Where are studies showing that leisure horses are happier than competition horses? How is top competition worse than keeping a leisure horse in the field all week only to drag it out at the weekend to hare around the countryside or over a course of show jumps? 



On what are you basing your comments on - how do you know that there is now no ethical kind training compared to before? Are you saying that no-one who competes is kind or ethical in their training of their horses? Is training horses to be expressive by default unethical?!



Are ALL horses at the top level performing with "such tension and unnatural gait"? What is "unnatural"? 

So many comments with so little to back them up! And somehow this "competitive dressage" is so much worse than the fat cobs about to have a heart attack in the local show ring, laminitic ponies (many of which are laminitic because they have been turfed out on a field full of cow pasture!), leisure horses ridden with tight backs and in inverted outlines that go on to have kissing spines or leg injuries... the list goes on!

And on the second point, short of requiring licenses to allow for horse ownership, how exactly do you propose top dressage riders prevent ignorant people from making their own interpretation of what they are seeing and doing their own version? What about those who lob on all manner of gadgetry and point their horses at massive fences having paid no attention to conditioning and fitness to get to that point? 

I also find it bizarre that some people like to almost worship the word of the classical masters and anything different must be incorrect... who is to say what is correct? It is all the product of human perception. Given we have far more advanced science now are we not in a better position to ensure the welfare of horses compared to 10s or 100s of years ago? Or indeed to establish whether a canter is 3 or 4 beat? Just because something was decided upon earlier, does that necessarily make it more right?!
		
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Horses are not fully mature until they are at least 8 years of age. Classical masters did extensive groundwork with their horses, the idea being they could perform movements in hand before performing them under saddle. Classical training did not allow horses to learn certain movements until they reached a certain age, 12 being the oldest!! This allowed them to build up their muscles slowly, rather than being rushed through like in modern dressage, which is all done straight under saddle, and there are horses as young as 7 and 8 competing at top level. Not to say everything in classical dressage is totally humane, or perfect, but it's much better than modern dressage.

I used to have lessons with a grand prix rider, his method of getting my horse to work correctly was to constantly squeeze on reins so tight he could hardly move forwards, so I had to constantly push on a normally forward going horse to get him doing the biggest strides he possibly could. My fingers were rubbed raw through my gloves and my horse actually started bleeding out of his nostrils.

Proper groundwork has made my horse work better, and he can collect on the buckle of his reins. He does not go fast but he is relaxed, responsive and it is much more correct and enjoyable now I am not forcing him to go fast whilst pulling his head in.

There is supposed to be no tension in dressage. Yet that is all there is at top level, and that is all I was taught to harbor by a dressage instructor.

I take it you have never read anything by Alexander Nevzorov. That is contemporary work.

Also, breeding massive 17hh warmbloods with incorrect movement is pretty unethical, the way a horse should move and look is NOT a 'product of human perception', who do you think you are, God? The way horses are bred now is far removed from the original wild native pony. Surely THAT tells you something isn't right. Just look at the difference between a pug and a wolf, and consider how many health problems a pug has.

If dressage was a true test of horsemanship then we would see all types of horses competing in it, not freakishly big warmbloods, as any horse is able to perform correct, relaxed movement, as stated in rules of classical riding.

And all the other examples you have given are those of amateur riders and owners. Those at the top level should be representing a top level of horsemanship, for all amateurs to aspire to. Not really setting a very good example, are they?

And well, I can guarantee that a horse that spends all week in a field to be ridden only at the weekend is a million times happier than some bubble-wrapped, isolated stallion stuck in transit for hours to be dragged out into massive arenas that would scare a human being. A horse is supposed to graze all day, and has no concept of the artificial human idea of 'sport.' How can you even compare those levels of stress?


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## ester (21 August 2015)

Has Nevzorov managed to teach any of his horses latin yet? 

'So many comments with so little to back them up! And somehow this "competitive dressage" is so much worse than the fat cobs about to have a heart attack in the local show ring, laminitic ponies (many of which are laminitic because they have been turfed out on a field full of cow pasture!), leisure horses ridden with tight backs and in inverted outlines that go on to have kissing spines or leg injuries... the list goes on!'

I don't think anyone is saying it is worse? As stated regularly on this forum just because there are other bad things happening doesn't mean the case in point shouldn't be discussed.


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## MotherOfChickens (21 August 2015)

LilacWillow said:



			I take it you have never read anything by Alexander Nevzorov. That is contemporary work.
		
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afraid I cannot tie him seriously-he has a very shady past and I don't trust his methods as I rarely see his horses without tension.I don't do hyperbole and feel he's nothing more than a poor circus trainer.


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## Simon Battram (22 August 2015)

Fuzzypuff said:



			I also find it bizarre that some people like to almost worship the word of the classical masters and anything different must be incorrect... who is to say what is correct? It is all the product of human perception. Given we have far more advanced science now are we not in a better position to ensure the welfare of horses compared to 10s or 100s of years ago? Or indeed to establish whether a canter is 3 or 4 beat? Just because something was decided upon earlier, does that necessarily make it more right?!
		
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I am not anti the 3 beat canter being collected, correctly, through to 4 beat and then 2 beat.

My point is quite simple: if when riding a walk pirouette the walk went from 4 beat to 2 beat you would get heavily penalised both for that movement, in the submission and paces mark. The rider did not ride the change of gait from 4 beat to 2 beat it happened. So to get penalised is in my opinion correct. 

So the rider then rides a canter pirouette and the canter changes from 3 to 4 beat yet there is no penalisation just rule changes.

How is this for a whacky suggestion: Let the rider show, on approach to the pirouette that they can ride the collection to change the canter from 3 beat to 4 beat, then ride the pirrie, exit in 4 beat and ride the transition to 3 beat. Then you can have a mark for the transitions. At no other time for simply going into a movement is the gait allowed to change.....


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## tristar (22 August 2015)

well I do worship oliveira so must be bizarre, I`m not saying every iota of his training is for everyone or every horse or every circumstance.

oliveira also said that the canter approach, pirouette  and exit should be in the same canter,  this makes sense as it shows the horse has not lost its rhythm or balance, I would think.

lilac willow, love your post!


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## kc100 (25 August 2015)

All competitive sports (talking top level here) have better riders and poorer riders, yes it would be lovely if all top riders in any discipline set perfect examples to all amateurs but alas, this is not the case. This isnt limited to equestrian sports either; doping accusations and failed drugs tests are rife in cycling, athletics....the problem with any 'competitive' sport is just that - COMPETITION. Just by pure definition of the word it sums up the problem with sport in general:

The activity or condition of striving to gain or win something by defeating or establishing superiority over others / An event or contest in which people take part in order to establish superiority or supremacy in a particular area. (Taken from the Oxford Dictionary). 

As others have said, people taking part in competitions will do anything to win, because those who enjoy competition (again talking top level not those having fun at lower levels) are of a competitive nature, and enjoy winning - the sort of person who gets in a mood when the lose even at Monopoly. So when those who enjoy winning and hate defeat, work their way up the levels of their chosen sport, it becomes more difficult, competition gets fiercer and they eventually get sucked into doing whatever it takes to get to the top and stay there. Hence why we see examples of horses who are tense, stressed and whose daily routine is not what would be defined as an 'ideal' scenario for a horse. 

There are exceptions to this of course, and I do feel the British riders are much more pleasurable to watch as Carl does advocate relaxation even at the expense of expression, and that personally sits better with me. I dont like showjumping on the whole because of the endless gadgets I see on the horses, there is one Italian I've seen who is an exception to this (his name escapes me) who jumps without a martingale and looks like he is having so much fun; but other than that I rarely see a horse who looks like it is enjoying jumping with the endless gadgets pulling its head about. 

I am lucky enough to have found myself a dressage trainer who is the perfect balance between 'classical' and 'modern/competitive', and he himself has the best outlook I've ever heard on dressage. He rode for the Spanish High School so has the classical background, yet has also competed at Grand Prix and now in his 60's is a trainer living in Spain but comes over to the UK for clinics. His only goal in working with new horses & riders is relaxation, I have watched him give the same lesson time and time again so it has drilled into me the importance of relaxation. Until the horse can relax the neck and back, and work in self carriage you dont have the correct foundations. And if you lose relaxation at any point you go back, regain the relaxed frame and move onto whatever it is you want to work on. He believes any horse, Warmblood or not, should be able to get to Medium level dressage - beyond that you need more of the ability to collect and extend that some breeds do not posses. However that is not to say it is impossible - there are examples of many breeds who make it up the levels, and are not Warmbloods. Yes these are the exception to the rule, but if it can be done no-one should generalise that its impossible. 

When I come to back my youngster and one day go onto compete it will never be at the cost of relaxation - but then again I am not a super competitive person who wants to win. I am more interested in having my youngster, who I have trained myself, keeping him sound and healthy and building a partnership throughout the years; that will be reward enough in itself regardless of where he places at competitions. If we get a frilly that's a bonus, and there is no reason why he cant be successful as he is bred for the job but I will get a lot of pleasure from him that doesnt just involve competing. But this is exactly why I could never be a professional rider, I dont have what it takes with that 'competitive nature' to be ruthless and win, winning attracts owners and sponsors and that keeps you financially afloat - ultimately competitive riding needs a lot of money, to attract money you need to win.

It is all a vicious circle and we can criticise all we want as well informed outsiders - but when that is your business, your livelihood, your financial security for your family....it puts things in a different perspective. In an ideal world, all people at top levels of sport, equestrian or not, would be perfect examples to young people and amateurs - but add money and the desire to win into the mix and you will never get it. 

So we can all abandon sport thinking 'what's the point' as ultimately it is all for selfish greed and glory, the horse is not the number one over the individual's desire to be successful - or we can accept that sport is sport, when winning is involved nothing can be perfect and stop getting so het up about it. There are some that do set better examples than others, and they are the people I like to watch. We respect those who set better examples, and we dislike those whose riding style is not to our taste. Usain Bolt vs Justin Gatlin was penned 'good vs evil' at the recent World Athletic Championships, and we have a bit of a situation like that in dressage; the good is the relaxed, less stressed style of riding (I personally think Carl achieves that but that it my opinion and I know others disagree, we are all entitled to our opinions) and the evil is rollkur/hypertension etc. 

Hopefully good will triumph in the end just as Usain Bolt won the other day.....I do see at least in the UK the more relaxed style of dressage building momentum and we are all very quick to criticise anyone seemingly riding in a RK/tense fashion, once the continent catches on a bit more (they are starting to) and judging also catches up perhaps the sport will move in the right direction.


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## Pigeon (25 August 2015)

It's hard to watch, isn't it, and definitely in the spotlight at the moment. I thought there were a few diamonds at both the Young Horse Finals and Aachen, unfortunately overshadowed by a few hideous examples in both.

I like the classical principles, of time, patience, clarity and lightness, but can't find it in me to worship the SRS as some do. It all looks a bit hollow and shuffly to me. But then maybe I am used to seeing Warmblood show trots. Plus their animals are still going strong in their twenties, and in my opinion Airs above the Ground is a step above GP, so maybe they have it right.

Futurities should be discontinued. Look at what they have done to the AQHA world. Do we want our Warmbloods to go the way of the Quarter Horse??? 

I think popular opinion may eventually filter down to the judges and we will start to see a change. It's happening already I feel.


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## Bernster (25 August 2015)

To add my tuppence worth, I caught some of the action from Aachen FEI GPS last night so I understand a little of the controversy, albeit from a very inexperienced perspective.  Even to my eyes, Undercover's test was difficult to watch, so tense and tight (apart from what looked like some lovely half passes) and heavy handed.  Charlotte's was so much more relaxed and loose.  I still think the tense, tight, overbent, two halves of a horse not working together, tests seem to do surprisingly well at these levels which I struggle to understand.


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## oldie48 (25 August 2015)

Well they shouldn't do. If 2 FEI judges can give a lame horse 81% and 7 FEI judges not notice the horse is lame, there is something desperately wrong with the quality of judging.



Bernster said:



			To add my tuppence worth, I caught some of the action from Aachen FEI GPS last night so I understand a little of the controversy, albeit from a very inexperienced perspective.  Even to my eyes, Undercover's test was difficult to watch, so tense and tight (apart from what looked like some lovely half passes) and heavy handed.  Charlotte's was so much more relaxed and loose.  I still think the tense, tight, overbent, two halves of a horse not working together, tests seem to do surprisingly well at these levels which I struggle to understand.
		
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## The Snowman (25 August 2015)

Surely the bad riding from a fair few top riders nowadays is down to bad judging/marking? If the tests were judged as they should be and relaxation and fluidity between the whole horse and rider was taken into account and scores reflected this, then we wouldn't have the problems we now face. It is likely to get worse as well, as young or amateur riders will watch this and try to copy, not knowing that it is wrong, and resulting in the next generation of riders being just as bad, if not worse! I know that this won't be the case with everyone, but it is a worrying thought never the less. 

It doesn't help that generally riding lessons are going downhill with more focus on where the horses head should be than what the whole image of the horse should look like. People learning to ride being told to 'kick to go, pull to stop' it's no wonder we are where we are now.

All these training aids to try and 'fix' horses, when often it is the rider that needs to be fixed! I know from personal experience, and I don't mind admitting, I used to blame the horse if something was going wrong in our tests/riding. I have realised though that it was down to me for the way we were going, after all, 'never ask a horse a question you haven't given the answer'. It is down to us to ride the horse properly and equip them with answers, not the other way round.

It is great to see that Britain don't have as big a problem as other countries, especially when we have role models such as Charlotte and Carl!!


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## kc100 (25 August 2015)

oldie48 said:



			Well they shouldn't do. If 2 FEI judges can give a lame horse 81% and 7 FEI judges not notice the horse is lame, there is something desperately wrong with the quality of judging.
		
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I run dressage competitions at a BD venue (show secretary/steward) and spend a lot of time with judges. Now I cant speak for the training the FEI provides to judges, but knowing what the BD judges tell me, BD train judges not to point out when a horse is lame because well, as silly as this sounds - its not politically correct, not polite and lameness is open to interpretation. What one person sees as lame, another may not agree - so BD tell judges not to stop a test when a horse is lame, even if it is blatantly lame, because it is likely to create conflict with the owner/rider and they can argue all sorts as to why its not 'lameness' even though the rest of the world would call it so. 

In the case of the FEI judges, I personally think they will have been in a tricky spot with regards to this particular situation - the horses all had to undergo a trot up with the vets, and this horse must have passed to have been allowed to compete - so who is a judge to disagree with a vet? Would you as a judge feel you had the authority to disagree with a vet on such a public stage? I know I wouldnt! I agree the quality of judging in this case is questionable, even if the horse is lame but they cant stop the test, they should at least mark accordingly based on the uneven steps and poor movement. 

That is what my BD judges do at least do, most would never pull up a horse for being lame (have actually seen one do this but that was quite severe circumstances and the horse blatantly didnt want to do any more of the test) but they do at least mark accordingly when a horse is uneven and showing questionable lame steps. And many will talk to the competitor afterwards to raise their concerns (never using the word lame though). 

You'd be amazed how many riders, at all levels, take huge offence to anyone making a claim that their horse is even showing a tiny amount of uneven steps, never mind calling their horse lame - again a whole other kettle of fish about the basics of horse ownership and how many people actually would recognize lameness in their own horse.....but if you dare as a judge or steward or anyone else for that matter say their horse is lame you'll start world war 3! 

I do think that at international level it is a hard place to be for a judge - at lower levels if someone turns up on a lame horse you can mark them with 4's, 5's and 6's, they might be annoyed and may even make a complaint but ultimately no-one has seen any of this in a particularly public fashion and life goes on. However when you are judging an international competition, the whole world is watching you and your every mark is scrutinised. If you mark one particular combination too low then you can be accused of disliking that particular country (all the politics that go on with international relationships), you are conscious of not being too disparate from the other judge's marks, you are conscious that this is an international combination where these riders have been chosen as the best in their country and a vet has passed that horse as physically fit to compete, when you get to international GP you dont often see many marks below 65% and really it shouldnt happen at that level because these are supposedly the best horses and riders in the world. If a judge starts marking too low then they are inadvertently criticising the vets, the selectors, the trainers, the owners.....half the country! 

I do think it is a bit of a political game international judging and I'm sure this will have been a factor in this particular case - I wouldnt be so quick to criticise the judges as there will be a lot more to it than we can imagine as mere spectators.


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## kc100 (25 August 2015)

The Snowman said:



			Surely the bad riding from a fair few top riders nowadays is down to bad judging/marking? If the tests were judged as they should be and relaxation and fluidity between the whole horse and rider was taken into account and scores reflected this, then we wouldn't have the problems we now face.
		
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It is all a vicious circle - you cannot become a judge until you have ridden at certain levels in accordance to what level you want to judge, so you have to ride in a competitive fashion at affiliated competitions to become a judge, so these bad riders can become bad judges because they have ridden at that level (and are all of this competitive mindset hence not putting the horse first etc as per my original post). So they will carry on judging in the way they rode - badly. That is not to say there are not good judges out there and there hopefully in the future will be some good riders becoming judges rather than just the bad riders becoming judges - but because of the way BD insist on you becoming a judge it does aid the recruitment of poor judges we seem to have an issue with currently. 

Again I think another problem, more so on an international level, is that many judges are of the older generation (no offence intended!), we have very few younger judges coming through the ranks (mainly because they are too busy riding!). So for the continental judges who perhaps are more inclined to like the tense/RK style of past on the continent, they may mark that higher - whereas younger riders on the continent are starting to catch on to the more relaxed style as per Carl and Charlotte, so they are starting to ride in that way but it may take a while for the judging to catch up purely down to the age of the judges and how they used to ride.


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## Bernster (25 August 2015)

Really interesting stuff KC100 and you make a lot of valid points.  Who am I to judge judges given that I don't even compete, so I totally get where you are coming from and I def agree they must experience those challenges and stresses.  But then again they are appointed to give their personal marks based on a set criteria so one would hope they can be firmer in reaching a view e.g. on marking irregular steps or tension.  Totally get why they might not stop a test for lameness given the circs., but it should show in the marks at least.


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## oldie48 (25 August 2015)

96 in the BD hand book " In the case of marked lameness, the senior officiating judge is to inform the rider that the horse is eliminated. There is no appeal against this decision if there are any doubts as to the horse's soundness, the competitor will be allowed to complete the test and any unevenness of pace severeley penalised." Totilas was clearly lame and most of the audience could see it. These were judges at the very top of their game, IMO it was inexcusable for them to allow a lame horse to continue regardless of which horse it was, which country it represented  and how brave they needed to be to do the "right" thing. some of the judges gave Totilas an 8 for his paces and 81% overall. The horse was lame, in pain and being asked to perform at the highest level. I cannot find any justification for it except cowardice. The reason I feel so strongly about it is that it was a particularly high profile competition and it gives dressage a bad name.



kc100 said:



			I run dressage competitions at a BD venue (show secretary/steward) and spend a lot of time with judges. Now I cant speak for the training the FEI provides to judges, but knowing what the BD judges tell me, BD train judges not to point out when a horse is lame because well, as silly as this sounds - its not politically correct, not polite and lameness is open to interpretation. What one person sees as lame, another may not agree - so BD tell judges not to stop a test when a horse is lame, even if it is blatantly lame, because it is likely to create conflict with the owner/rider and they can argue all sorts as to why its not 'lameness' even though the rest of the world would call it so. 

In the case of the FEI judges, I personally think they will have been in a tricky spot with regards to this particular situation - the horses all had to undergo a trot up with the vets, and this horse must have passed to have been allowed to compete - so who is a judge to disagree with a vet? Would you as a judge feel you had the authority to disagree with a vet on such a public stage? I know I wouldnt! I agree the quality of judging in this case is questionable, even if the horse is lame but they cant stop the test, they should at least mark accordingly based on the uneven steps and poor movement. 

That is what my BD judges do at least do, most would never pull up a horse for being lame (have actually seen one do this but that was quite severe circumstances and the horse blatantly didnt want to do any more of the test) but they do at least mark accordingly when a horse is uneven and showing questionable lame steps. And many will talk to the competitor afterwards to raise their concerns (never using the word lame though). 

You'd be amazed how many riders, at all levels, take huge offence to anyone making a claim that their horse is even showing a tiny amount of uneven steps, never mind calling their horse lame - again a whole other kettle of fish about the basics of horse ownership and how many people actually would recognize lameness in their own horse.....but if you dare as a judge or steward or anyone else for that matter say their horse is lame you'll start world war 3! 

I do think that at international level it is a hard place to be for a judge - at lower levels if someone turns up on a lame horse you can mark them with 4's, 5's and 6's, they might be annoyed and may even make a complaint but ultimately no-one has seen any of this in a particularly public fashion and life goes on. However when you are judging an international competition, the whole world is watching you and your every mark is scrutinised. If you mark one particular combination too low then you can be accused of disliking that particular country (all the politics that go on with international relationships), you are conscious of not being too disparate from the other judge's marks, you are conscious that this is an international combination where these riders have been chosen as the best in their country and a vet has passed that horse as physically fit to compete, when you get to international GP you dont often see many marks below 65% and really it shouldnt happen at that level because these are supposedly the best horses and riders in the world. If a judge starts marking too low then they are inadvertently criticising the vets, the selectors, the trainers, the owners.....half the country! 

I do think it is a bit of a political game international judging and I'm sure this will have been a factor in this particular case - I wouldnt be so quick to criticise the judges as there will be a lot more to it than we can imagine as mere spectators.
		
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## Cortez (25 August 2015)

oldie48 said:



			96 in the BD hand book " In the case of marked lameness, the senior officiating judge is to inform the rider that the horse is eliminated. There is no appeal against this decision if there are any doubts as to the horse's soundness, the competitor will be allowed to complete the test and any unevenness of pace severeley penalised." Totilas was clearly lame and most of the audience could see it. These were judges at the very top of their game, IMO it was inexcusable for them to allow a lame horse to continue regardless of which horse it was, which country it represented  and how brave they needed to be to do the "right" thing. some of the judges gave Totilas an 8 for his paces and 81% overall. The horse was lame, in pain and being asked to perform at the highest level. I cannot find any justification for it except cowardice. The reason I feel so strongly about it is that it was a particularly high profile competition and it gives dressage a bad name.
		
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Hear, hear: if the horse is plainly lame, no amount of political correctness can excuse allowing it to continue. I have eliminated horses for lameness when judging, and suffered the slings and arrows as a result (best ever from a furious competitor: "He's NOT lame, he just limps a little"!


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## Alec Swan (25 August 2015)

kc100 said:



			.. knowing what the BD judges tell me, BD train judges not to point out when a horse is lame because well, as silly as this sounds - its not politically correct, not polite and lameness is open to interpretation. What one person sees as lame, another may not agree - so BD tell judges not to stop a test when a horse is lame, even if it is blatantly lame, because it is likely to create conflict with the owner/rider and they can argue all sorts as to why its not 'lameness' even though the rest of the world would call it so. 

.. .
		
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Bloody Hell!  I'm not sure whether to laugh or not!  If we watch Ch 4 Racing,  how often do we see the non-runners listed as 'lame'?  So 'lame' doesn't race,  but 'lame' at dressage is acceptable?  Are there not Vets at these venues?  What happens when Vets view Event horses at a 'trot up'?  Is there no soundness test at dressage?  

kc100,  this isn't a slight against you! 

Alec.


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## kc100 (25 August 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			Bloody Hell!  I'm not sure whether to laugh or not!  If we watch Ch 4 Racing,  how often do we see the non-runners listed as 'lame'?  So 'lame' doesn't race,  but 'lame' at dressage is acceptable?  Are there not Vets at these venues?  What happens when Vets view Event horses at a 'trot up'?  Is there no soundness test at dressage?  

kc100,  this isn't a slight against you! 

Alec.
		
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Haha dont worry no offence taken! 

For whatever reason (probably due to sheer number of BD competitions that happen every week around the UK) there are no vets at lower level dressage venues - well not at least the one I work at or others I have been to. There are no trot-ups required for your average affiliated BD competition, so no official vet on hand to declare whether any given horse is lame or not. Hence why a judge, despite the rule book, often would struggle to pull a competitor up mid test for their horse being lame as it is open to interpretation unless you are a vet who is qualified to make that diagnosis. I've never been to Regional Festivals, Area Festivals or the Nationals so not sure if vets are present once you get to the more important competitions (presume they would be), but for your typical qualifying classes for BD there are no vets required on site. 

There definitely are trot ups at international competitions, and in this case Totilas passed the trot up at Aachen - I think the finger should be pointed at the vet as well as the judges in this case as they were the ones that allowed the horse to compete in the first place. As I said before, as a judge it must be incredibly hard to penalise a horse for lameness when a qualified veterinarian (you'd hope a decent one at a competition of this standard!) has passed a horse as sound in a trot-up.


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## kc100 (25 August 2015)

oldie48 said:



			96 in the BD hand book " In the case of marked lameness, the senior officiating judge is to inform the rider that the horse is eliminated. There is no appeal against this decision if there are any doubts as to the horse's soundness, the competitor will be allowed to complete the test and any unevenness of pace severeley penalised." Totilas was clearly lame and most of the audience could see it. These were judges at the very top of their game, IMO it was inexcusable for them to allow a lame horse to continue regardless of which horse it was, which country it represented  and how brave they needed to be to do the "right" thing. some of the judges gave Totilas an 8 for his paces and 81% overall. The horse was lame, in pain and being asked to perform at the highest level. I cannot find any justification for it except cowardice. The reason I feel so strongly about it is that it was a particularly high profile competition and it gives dressage a bad name.
		
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The judges I know and come to my venue would all say they'd struggle to declare 'marked lameness' unless it was a really severe case, so yes they should be marking down where soundness is in question - and the majority do. 

In the case of Totilas, I totally agree that the judges should not have marked so highly - however it is ultimately the vet who allowed that horse to compete, as the vet passed the horse in the trot up. So as a judge they couldnt have pulled the horse up in the test because a vet had passed the horse in a trot up - a judge cant trump a vet in terms of their ability to judge soundness, regardless of who the judge is! 

And to add a bit more balance here, the horse was withdrawn after the initial team competition following being seen by vets after the performance - so at least someone did spot the issue albeit after the test. The trot up vet has a lot to answer for in this instance! 

I do completely see where you are coming from and you are right, it is giving dressage a bad name, but I do feel for the judges when a trot up has already occurred and the horse passed, however I totally agree that they shouldnt have marked so highly based on that test.


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## kc100 (25 August 2015)

Cortez said:



			Hear, hear: if the horse is plainly lame, no amount of political correctness can excuse allowing it to continue. I have eliminated horses for lameness when judging, and suffered the slings and arrows as a result (best ever from a furious competitor: "He's NOT lame, he just limps a little"!
		
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Haha that comment doesnt surprise me at all, the things competitors come out with never cease to amaze me - always good for a laugh though! Had a test sheet screwed up and thrown in my face a few weeks back, and I'm just the steward! You judges are lucky you have your cars/judging boxes to hide in  

I do think most judges lack the confidence to claim 'marked lameness' and often dont want the backlash of complaints to BD etc - which I can understand because after all they enjoy judging and dont want BD receiving a load of complaints and getting pulled in by BD over it. But thankfully the judges I know would all mark down for lameness or any uneven steps and do often talk to the competitor at the end of the test to raise their concerns. It is a bit of a wimpy approach I know but I can understand why they'd do it that way, rather than an out and out elimination - BD are forever telling judges to be encouraging and to promote the sport so eliminating someone goes very much against that.


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## oldie48 (25 August 2015)

Sorry but you are incorrect. the trot up takes place before the start of the competition not just before the horse competes. At FEI competitions the judge at C has the responsibility for eliminating a lame horse, at Aachen this was the Dutch judge. Any competing horse could theoretically injure itself or develop a condition which causes lameness after the trot up and there has to be an appointed person to deal with this situation. Actually, at the trot up, Totilas was held and there was some dispute about his soundness. i think it is correct to say that at this level there is more than one officiating vet. I know when my daughter competed at an FEI competition the trot up was in front of the ground jury, not just one vet. Frankly, if a judge at this level is not capable of seeing when a horse is lame, how the hell can they judge the quality of any movement. The "issue" was spotted by most of the audience during the test. With reference to an earlier post, lameness is not "subjective" a horse is either lame or not, the degree to which it is lame may be 1/10th or more but it is still lame. In this case we are not talking about a horse pootling through a prelim test, it is a horse competing at the limit of it's athletic ability and to allow a horse to continue when it is in pain is a welfare issue not one of political correctness.



kc100 said:



			The judges I know and come to my venue would all say they'd struggle to declare 'marked lameness' unless it was a really severe case, so yes they should be marking down where soundness is in question - and the majority do. 

In the case of Totilas, I totally agree that the judges should not have marked so highly - however it is ultimately the vet who allowed that horse to compete, as the vet passed the horse in the trot up. So as a judge they couldnt have pulled the horse up in the test because a vet had passed the horse in a trot up - a judge cant trump a vet in terms of their ability to judge soundness, regardless of who the judge is! 

And to add a bit more balance here, the horse was withdrawn after the initial team competition following being seen by vets after the performance - so at least someone did spot the issue albeit after the test. The trot up vet has a lot to answer for in this instance! 

I do completely see where you are coming from and you are right, it is giving dressage a bad name, but I do feel for the judges when a trot up has already occurred and the horse passed, however I totally agree that they shouldnt have marked so highly based on that test.
		
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## oldie48 (25 August 2015)

If judges lack the confidence to tell a competitor that their horse is lame,how on earth do they have the confidence to mark a test? I would have no faith in a judge that couldn't spot a lame horse and neither would most BD competitors. the BD judges that i know are knowledgeable and have integrity, I have no doubt that they wouldd "ring the Bell". If a judge can't tell the difference, they shouldn't be doing the job and I doubt very much that BD encourages judges to allow obviously lame horses to continue, it is bad for the sport, appalling for the horses and does nothing to promote the sport. 



kc100 said:



			Haha that comment doesnt surprise me at all, the things competitors come out with never cease to amaze me - always good for a laugh though! Had a test sheet screwed up and thrown in my face a few weeks back, and I'm just the steward! You judges are lucky you have your cars/judging boxes to hide in  

I do think most judges lack the confidence to claim 'marked lameness' and often dont want the backlash of complaints to BD etc - which I can understand because after all they enjoy judging and dont want BD receiving a load of complaints and getting pulled in by BD over it. But thankfully the judges I know would all mark down for lameness or any uneven steps and do often talk to the competitor at the end of the test to raise their concerns. It is a bit of a wimpy approach I know but I can understand why they'd do it that way, rather than an out and out elimination - BD are forever telling judges to be encouraging and to promote the sport so eliminating someone goes very much against that.
		
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## oldie48 (25 August 2015)

Sorry but my last word on the subject. I don't need a vet to tell me a horse is lame, I can do that myself as indeed can most owners and riders (how did Rath not know???) I need a vet to tell me "why a horse is lame". If a rider doesn't know their horse is lame, they need telling!!


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## crabbymare (25 August 2015)

kc100 said:



			And to add a bit more balance here, the horse was withdrawn after the initial team competition following being seen by vets after the performance - so at least someone did spot the issue albeit after the test. The trot up vet has a lot to answer for in this instance!
		
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To be fair the trot up vet did not want the horse to continue but was over ruled by other officials that were not vets


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## Cortez (25 August 2015)

crabbymare said:



			To be fair the trot up vet did not want the horse to continue but was over ruled by other officials that were not vets
		
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Yes, this is true. Shameful, IMO. A judge can eliminate a horse for blood (in the mouth/on the body) during a test, why can they not do so for obvious lameness?


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## OwnedbyJoe (26 August 2015)

crabbymare said:



			To be fair the trot up vet did not want the horse to continue but was over ruled by other officials that were not vets
		
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Wouldn't be the first time a vet has been overruled by the Ground Jury.. Happened to me once (albeit at a much lower level). There's a reason why I don't vet dressage and eventing any more.


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## The Snowman (26 August 2015)

kc100 said:



			It is all a vicious circle - you cannot become a judge until you have ridden at certain levels in accordance to what level you want to judge, so you have to ride in a competitive fashion at affiliated competitions to become a judge, so these bad riders can become bad judges because they have ridden at that level (and are all of this competitive mindset hence not putting the horse first etc as per my original post). So they will carry on judging in the way they rode - badly. That is not to say there are not good judges out there and there hopefully in the future will be some good riders becoming judges rather than just the bad riders becoming judges - but because of the way BD insist on you becoming a judge it does aid the recruitment of poor judges we seem to have an issue with currently. 

Again I think another problem, more so on an international level, is that many judges are of the older generation (no offence intended!), we have very few younger judges coming through the ranks (mainly because they are too busy riding!). So for the continental judges who perhaps are more inclined to like the tense/RK style of past on the continent, they may mark that higher - whereas younger riders on the continent are starting to catch on to the more relaxed style as per Carl and Charlotte, so they are starting to ride in that way but it may take a while for the judging to catch up purely down to the age of the judges and how they used to ride.
		
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That makes sense, hopefully within the next generation or two then we will see some improvement within judging, and riding as well. Apart from having to ride to a certain level to judge do we know if there is any other requirements? Surely an experienced judge should mentor them first and they should be moderated until BD etc know that they are accurate? Mind you, I'm not sure that will work if the judge that mentors them is a bad judge, I think any way you look at it, it is a vicious circle.

Maybe more focus should be on riding instruction to produce more good riders, perhaps then the majority of riders will realise that the judging is bad and there will be some sort of system to become a judge -  a proper system should I say.


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## tristar (26 August 2015)

how about getting the rspca to attend and pull lame horses, if the riders , judges and comp organisers can`t face it.

only joking really.


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## rara007 (26 August 2015)

The Snowman said:



			That makes sense, hopefully within the next generation or two then we will see some improvement within judging, and riding as well. Apart from having to ride to a certain level to judge do we know if there is any other requirements? Surely an experienced judge should mentor them first and they should be moderated until BD etc know that they are accurate? Mind you, I'm not sure that will work if the judge that mentors them is a bad judge, I think any way you look at it, it is a vicious circle.
.
		
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There's a clear system for how you get into judging, how you stay in judging and how you progress within BD, published on its own website. You don't need to ride at any level in order to judge a level, only get 6 scores at 60% at novice to start (or have taught people to do this) if I've interpreted it properly.


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## elliefiz (26 August 2015)

According to Eurodressage, PETA has launched legal action against Gal and Rath for animal cruelty. What a disaster this has turned out to be. Whatever anyone's opinion is on PETA, they have a lot of supporters around the world and does dressage need the bad publicity? As it is, it's a support the general public don't understand. The FEI are as useless as a chocolate teapot- it was obvious from social media that thousands of people were angry and upset about scenes at Aachen. They should have done some sort of damage litigation but have done absolutely nothing, no doubt fear of supporting wealthy sponsors. The whole situation leaves a bad taste in my mouth. It's a repeat of the terrible handling of the situation in Endurance riding.


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## oldie48 (26 August 2015)

This is very sad but not totally unexpected. I hope all the dressage judges at Aachen feel totally ashamed!



elliefiz said:



			According to Eurodressage, PETA has launched legal action against Gal and Rath for animal cruelty. What a disaster this has turned out to be. Whatever anyone's opinion is on PETA, they have a lot of supporters around the world and does dressage need the bad publicity? As it is, it's a support the general public don't understand. The FEI are as useless as a chocolate teapot- it was obvious from social media that thousands of people were angry and upset about scenes at Aachen. They should have done some sort of damage litigation but have done absolutely nothing, no doubt fear of supporting wealthy sponsors. The whole situation leaves a bad taste in my mouth. It's a repeat of the terrible handling of the situation in Endurance riding.
		
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## marotelle (26 August 2015)

But surely, Totilas must have been seen to be lame in the training area?! Where were the stewarts? He was sorounded by
very competant and knowledgeable people ; how come they didn't pull him out then? What about his trainer??? 
For heaven's sakes this was not a small poney club gathering......I really think, this has done more harm to modern dressage, than all the fabulous work achieved these last ten years.
What a pity, and yes, the German delegation should hang down their heads in shame.


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## Barnacle (26 August 2015)

I hear rumour of talks with the BBC for a Dressage/FEI exposé...


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