# Please help - what makes a Cremello



## galaxy (28 May 2013)

Hi there

This is not actually a breeding question.  A client of mine has a Cremello mare that is rapidly developing melanomas (see thread http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=615062).  It is very rare in non greys and the vets are very worried and I was just wondered with her being a "dilute" if there would be any connection to the grey pigmentation of a grey.  I'm sorry if everything I have just written is totaly rubbish, I do not understand this topic at all!  The lady who she was bought off (in January where she passed a 5 stage vetting, this has literally just developed!!!) knows her breeder and is going to find out all she can about her parents.  

Would really appreciate any info on cremellos that people know! thank you.


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## cruiseline (28 May 2013)

The cremello gene, which is in fact a double dilute chestnut, has no link to the greying gene, however even though you say the mare is a cremello, she could also carry the grey gene without you knowing, as it will be hidden.


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## galaxy (28 May 2013)

cruiseline said:



			The cremello gene, which is in fact a double dilute chestnut, has no link to the greying gene, however even though you say the mare is a cremello, she could also carry the grey gene without you knowing, as it will be hidden.
		
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if she carried the grey gene she could be more susceptible to melanomas?

When you say grey gene....  could  (for example) a bay horse also have a grey gene? (I'm sorry if I sound very thick!  I truely know NOTHING about colour genetics!)


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## cruiseline (28 May 2013)

Firstly let me explain that all horses are born either red (chestnut) or black (black/bay) as a base colour. Grey is a gene that modifies that base colour, so the horse's colour greys out over time. A cremello is basically a chestnut horse, which carries 2 copies of the dilute gene (1 copy produces a palomino, 2 copies produce a cremello) The same dilute gene on a bay horse produces either a buckskin (1 copy) or a perlino (2 copies). There are lots of other genes, which have an affect on a horses base colour too 

To answer your question, no a bay horse does not carry the grey gene, as it is dominant and if its there you will see it. However the problem with a cremello is that the coat is already diluted by the presence of 2 copies of the cream gene. So even if the greying gene was present, you would not be able to tell, without a DNA test.

And yes if she carries the grey gene, she would be more susceptible to melanomas.


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## galaxy (28 May 2013)

cruiseline said:



			Firstly let me explain that all horses are born either red (chestnut) or black (black/bay) as a base colour. Grey is a gene that modifies that base colour, so the horse's colour greys out over time. A cremello is basically a chestnut horse, which carries 2 copies of the dilute gene (1 copy produces a palomino, 2 copies produce a cremello) The same dilute gene on a bay horse produces either a buckskin (1 copy) or a perlino (2 copies). There are lots of other genes, which have an affect on a horses base colour too 

To answer your question, no a bay horse does not carry the grey gene, as it is dominant and if its there you will see it. However the problem with a cremello is that the coat is already diluted by the presence of 2 copies of the cream gene. So even if the greying gene was present, you would not be able to tell, without a DNA test.

And yes if she carries the grey gene, she would be more susceptible to melanomas.
		
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That is REALLY interesting.  Thank you for your time (and patience!   )


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## cruiseline (28 May 2013)

galaxy said:



			That is REALLY interesting.  Thank you for your time (and patience!   )
		
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Your very welcome


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## Truly (29 May 2013)

Cremello on it's own does not have any more problems with melanomas than any other colour except grey...However the two together does increase the risk of aggressive melanomas 
It sounds more likely that your friends mare is both cremello and grey 
Unfortunately this is where lack of colour genetic knowledge in the past can be dangerous...also unfortunately there are still alot of breeders unaware of this danger and it is rife in the Welshies (cremello/grey) but other breeds seem to be more prone to the melanomas if cremello/grey.
If you have a single or double dilute and you are unsure of the parentage colours and are going to cover with a single or double dilute that could possibly be grey, then you must test for the grey gene.


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## Truly (29 May 2013)

Just wanted to add..they are aggressive in any double dilutes with grey (cremello, perlino, smoky cream) but not single dilute with grey (palomino, buckskin, smoky black)


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## Gloi (29 May 2013)

This really should be publicised more. My fried just had her 3yo perlino/grey filly pts with aggressive melanoma and there was very little information around about  the risk, even the vet didn't realise until a specialist was involved.


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## galaxy (29 May 2013)

Thank you. We are going to speak to the vet about this. Is DNA testing something you do through a vet or separately? Would be good to put this into some sort of perspective if she has the grey gene so therefore that is why she has them, or just very unlucky as its so rare. The more I read the more I expect she has the grey gene...


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## s4sugar (29 May 2013)

£20 for a DNA test using plucked mane or tail hairs - http://www.animalgenetics.eu/Equine/equine-cost-pound.html

If you can link to her pedigree we may be able to work out the possibility but cremello is the only colour where grey isn't expressed. You can tell on most perlinos.


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## galaxy (29 May 2013)

s4sugar said:



			£20 for a DNA test using plucked mane or tail hairs - http://www.animalgenetics.eu/Equine/equine-cost-pound.html

If you can link to her pedigree we may be able to work out the possibility but cremello is the only colour where grey isn't expressed. You can tell on most perlinos.
		
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thanks so much!

She is a white passported Irish X so has no breeding recorded.  She looks a true Heinz 57.  The lady we bought her off however knows her breeders in Ireland and is going to go back the them and try and find out anything she can.  She is so upset about the whole thing.


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## galaxy (29 May 2013)

s4sugar said:



			£20 for a DNA test using plucked mane or tail hairs - http://www.animalgenetics.eu/Equine/equine-cost-pound.html

If you can link to her pedigree we may be able to work out the possibility but cremello is the only colour where grey isn't expressed. You can tell on most perlinos.
		
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question....  which of those tests would we be wanting?  Grey because that's what we want to know???


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## s4sugar (29 May 2013)

You would need the grey test. 



A cremello has to have cream from both sides so if you have a foal from a buckskin x palomino you know there cannot be grey. If a parent is cremello that could be hiding grey. On an identity passport there will be no way to be sure of parents/colours.


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## galaxy (29 May 2013)

s4sugar said:



			You would need the grey test. 



A cremello has to have cream from both sides so if you have a foal from a buckskin x palomino you know there cannot be grey. If a parent is cremello that could be hiding grey. On an identity passport there will be no way to be sure of parents/colours.
		
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thank you 

If we get any info back on the colour of her parents/grandparents I will post on this thread.  Will get the DNA test done for sure!


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## lindsayH (29 May 2013)

My cremello mare was also covered in melanomas by the time she was 7yo, at least 50 of them. I've never had/seen this problem in other cremellos but this mare was connemara and therefore I strongly suspect she was also grey. It is interesting that some people seem to recognise this as an issue already although no vet I've spoken to has heard about it (including a friend at the RVC). Further research would be helpful I think to establish if there is a link and so breeders can be warned if necessary.


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## Meowy Catkin (29 May 2013)

Greys are more prone to melanomas and pink skin is more likely to burn in the sun and we know the link between sun damage and skin cancer.

So grey + pink skin = an even greater chance of developing melanomas. It certainly seems logical to me.


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## Gloi (29 May 2013)

Faracat said:



			Greys are more prone to melanomas and pink skin is more likely to burn in the sun and we know the link between sun damage and skin cancer.

So grey + pink skin = an even greater chance of developing melanomas. It certainly seems logical to me.
		
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I don't think the melanoma in these young horses has any link to sun damage. The reason they are getting them is some other mechanism. Some of these cremello/grey horses are even born with melanoma.


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## galaxy (29 May 2013)

lindsayH said:



			My cremello mare was also covered in melanomas by the time she was 7yo, at least 50 of them. I've never had/seen this problem in other cremellos but this mare was connemara and therefore I strongly suspect she was also grey. It is interesting that some people seem to recognise this as an issue already although no vet I've spoken to has heard about it (including a friend at the RVC). Further research would be helpful I think to establish if there is a link and so breeders can be warned if necessary.
		
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Can I ask how your mare is now and how old she is?


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## galaxy (29 May 2013)

Faracat said:



			Greys are more prone to melanomas and pink skin is more likely to burn in the sun and we know the link between sun damage and skin cancer.

So grey + pink skin = an even greater chance of developing melanomas. It certainly seems logical to me.
		
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I lost a grey to melanomas 4 years ago and he was black skinned.

The vets say there is no link to the sun.  In fact all the areas this mare's melanomas have appreared are very hairy, some even on her side and under her tail.  She has never been clipped so the skin has never been exposed to the sun. At the moment, we don't know she has grey in her.

However she already wears a UV fly mask for her eyes (a known cremello problem) and the owner is buying a UV fly rug anyway.  Just in case.


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## lindsayH (30 May 2013)

I no longer own her Galaxy, but I do ring for updates about her occasionally. She would now be about 10. Last I heard (about 2 months ago), she was doing fine. She had many of the lumps when I got her at 4/5yo and most didn't grow at all, others grew slowly and a couple grew more quickly. She only had a couple that caused a problem, one under her tail and one in her eye. I did think she would have lost that eye by now but apparently it hasn't needed removing yet. She certainly won't be a long lived horse and has been very lucky that it hasn't spread internally yet, but so far seems largely unaffected by her tumours.


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## galaxy (30 May 2013)

lindsayH said:



			I no longer own her Galaxy, but I do ring for updates about her occasionally. She would now be about 10. Last I heard (about 2 months ago), she was doing fine. She had many of the lumps when I got her at 4/5yo and most didn't grow at all, others grew slowly and a couple grew more quickly. She only had a couple that caused a problem, one under her tail and one in her eye. I did think she would have lost that eye by now but apparently it hasn't needed removing yet. She certainly won't be a long lived horse and has been very lucky that it hasn't spread internally yet, but so far seems largely unaffected by her tumours.
		
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Well the fact she is that age will be positive news for my friend.  They are growing so rapidly we were worried that this may go downhill very fast.  Fingers crossed for your old mare and my friends.


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## galaxy (4 June 2013)

little update for those interested.

Went into vets today for scope and biopsies.  No new melanomas or changes in the ones there from 2 weeks ago which is positive.  She was scoped and there were no traces from what they could see inside.  So we are taking this as good news!  3 of the external lumps were biopsied and should get results beginning next week I'd have thought

DNA hair sample being sent off today.



(I did have to educate a vet student who was stood with us while we were waiting for the vet!  He said "oh well melanomas are common in white horses"!!  I turned and said, "she's not white, she's cremello and melanomas are common in GREYS!".  Then explained what our vet and the specialist vet at the big hospital had said about it.  Lets hope he still has plenty of time left in vet school before coming out with gems like that!)


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## Clodagh (4 June 2013)

galaxy said:



			little update for those interested.

(I did have to educate a vet student who was stood with us while we were waiting for the vet!  He said "oh well melanomas are common in white horses"!!  I turned and said, "she's not white, she's cremello and melanomas are common in GREYS!".  Then explained what our vet and the specialist vet at the big hospital had said about it.  Lets hope he still has plenty of time left in vet school before coming out with gems like that!)
		
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Makes you wonder about the future, doesn't it!?
I hope they aren't too bad and she can go on to have a life, will be interesting to know if she is grey, do update again.


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