# Why use a ''not fully qualified'' EDT?



## JackDaniels1 (29 July 2009)

Quite a few people local to me have recommended several EDT who all don't appear on the BEVA list and therefore they are not fully qualified? is that right? 

Why use someone who isnt fully qualified? I know they are quite a bit cheaper but surely wouldnt you rather use a fully qualified EDT? 

I was amazed to find my local sport horse stud (which is a well known very successful stud) uses a guy who isn't fully qualified so do a couple of instructors I know! 

Just a Q!?


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## jumpthemoon (29 July 2009)

I used someone who wasn't fully qualified once. I was convinced my horse was in pain from his teeth and she came out and looked and said he was fine and didn't need doing. 

About 4 weeks later I was still not happy so called a proper EDT who came out and filed some horrible sharp edges from my horses teeth. he was much better after that and I would always use an EDT now, although occasionally if he is booked up I use the vet, but only as an alternate (ie vet - 6months - EDT - 6 months - vet and so on)


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## Sarah1 (29 July 2009)

My EDT isn't on the list but I'm almost positive he's qualified?!  He certainly advertises as being BEVA qualified...
Maybe the list needs updating?


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## JackDaniels1 (29 July 2009)

Who do you use? sorry might of asked you before!


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## Pearlsasinger (29 July 2009)

Well I've managed to go even better than that, our EDT started as a vet, so is dual qualified.


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## LadyRascasse (29 July 2009)

my edt isn't listed but he is definatly qualified because he works along side the vets in the area


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## Sarah1 (29 July 2009)

We use Marcus Fasey &amp; have always found him to be very good


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## VictoriaEDT (29 July 2009)

The list was updated in February after this years exams.

I wonder the same thing, I know i read on here time after time people saying "i have used so and so for 20 odd years with no problems, he is vey popular, cheap and yes unqualified with no training but he has experience on his side"........this really worries me because there are a ridiculous amount of unqualified EDTs that should not be allowed to do the work they do and we as qualified EDTs rely on you guys to support us and make a stand to only use qualified EDTs.

Yes, there are a few working towards their exams and training with BEVA and if they ask BEVA they will supply them with a letter stating that their intentions are to take the exam and these guys need support, but there are few of them.

For all those EDTs (like those mentioned in ponydentist post yesterday) that think they know it all just because they have been doing it for 20 odd years........then why dont they take the exam? regardless of whether they think they need to or not, this is not the issue, with legislation/EDT politics like it is nowadays......it is kind of a non brainer to me.


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## VictoriaEDT (29 July 2009)

Here is the list, if they arent on it then they are not BEVA qualified. This one was updated in June 09.

Wayne Abbott South West 01761 471071
Dean Andrews East Midlands 07770 405098
Dan Astle-Carter North of England 07929 269291
Henry Billson South West 01934 712591
Adrian Brazier Midlands 07932 690271
David Brown Scotland, Mainland Europe 07971 234365
Penny Brownings East &amp; West Sussex (South East) 01323 815120
Rachel Burton East Anglia 07968 445509
Alyson Calladine West Midlands 07866 678158
Mat Carter Midlands 07799 374445
Miriam Casey South West England, Ireland 07936 423528
Grant Chanter South West, Bucks, Herts, Beds 07768 094850
David Collier Wales 07779 724647
Will Cooper South West, Cambs 07743 392791
Martin Danzebrink Beds, Bucks, Herts 07720 299269
Keith Evans Devon &amp; Cornwall 01364 642042
Richard Frost MRCVS East Anglia 01284 789428
Andrew Gardner South to Mid Wales 07974 000417
Stuart Garrard East Anglia 07802 449769
Lee Gosden Donkey Sanctuary + South West 07966 526524
Craig Griffiths Cheshire 01606 333119
Victoria Hammond South West, South Central 07795 967203
Robin Harding Shropshire, Cheshire, N. Wales 01948 830365
Dorian Harwood Bucks, Berks,Beds,Herts,South East 07967 662779
Rebecca Hawkes Kent, Sussex, Surrey 07974 764661
Marc Higgins N. Ireland &amp; Rep. of Ireland 00353876884908
Colin Hill Berkshire 01344 427765
Sam Hole MRCVS Midlands 07775 596718
Diane Holliday Greater Manchester Area 07989 926721
Karl Holliman MRCVS South East 07831 426949
Geraint Hughes Shropshire 07974 097571
Alex Jessett Warwickshire &amp; surrounding area 07980 012041
Chris Johannson MRCVS South West 01884 841100
Claire Johnson Glos, South West 07760 154100
Chris Keate Sussex, Kent, Surrey 01323 842176
Sally Kingsley MRCVS North England 01423 711860
Shane Kitching Leicestershire/Derbyshire 07774 226302
Toby Lee South West 01934 712591
Jayne Liebscher South East 01252 842357
Gemma Lilly Donkey Sanctuary + Devon 07970 379434
Fred McKenna Hants, South West, Aberdeenshire 01980 846017
Charlie Mitchell MRCVS South East, South West 01420 82163
James Noble North West, Scotland 07748 405377
Francesca Ody South West &amp; Scotland 07787 817657
Rob Pascoe MRCVS Kent, East Sussex 01622 813700
Chris Pearce MRCVS South West 01202 823512
Tom Phillips Lincs, Notts, Leicestershire 01529 241522
Stuart Philpott Wilts, Oxford, Glos, Berks 07855 792955
Simon Pratley South East, South West 01934 820855
Justin Pugh Wales 07970 730226
Suzanne Redford South East 01403 864024
David Regan Glos, Oxon, Warwcs 07711 704577
Beverley Rippon East Anglia 01638 507117
Tony Rose South East, South West 01425 674415
Robert Ruddy Yorkshire 01904 491836
Alex Scott Scotland, North England 07721336837
Stuart Shaw Midlands 07970699786
Lucy Smith Berkshire, Wiltshire, Gloucestershire 07771 933896
Rupert Smith Oxon, Bucks, Northamptonshire 01280 704992
Gill Spinney Devon and Cornwall 01566 86056
Ivan Stockdale Cheshire 01270 780886
Adrian Sutherland Northern Ireland 00353567724559
Mark Tabachnik N.Cheshire/Stockport/Gr Manchester 08458 330034
Amy Taylor MRCVS South West 01202 823512
Nicola Taylor-Smith East Midlands 07789 404422
Mark Thorne North of England, Scotland 07850 011518
Anthony Tory South West, South East 01672 541437
Andrew Walker MRCVS South West 01884 841100
Philippa Walker Worcestershire 07710 427197
Martin Walls Hampshire/Surrey (borders) 01962 777790
Paul Waudby Yorks, Lancs, Cumbria, N East,Scottish Borders 07720 416217
Stephen Welsh Warwickshire and surrounding counties 07940 488234
Stephen Williams South West 01209 718492
Greg Wood Hampshire, Buckinghamshire, Surrey 02380 692671
Mark Youngs East Anglia 01502 569894


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## VictoriaEDT (29 July 2009)

Got to go back out to work now and battle the elements but i will look forward the reading peoples views later!


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## Silverspring (29 July 2009)

I have to saying haved used an EDT listed there I was shocked at quite how sh!t he was.  He was scared of the horse, rough with her mouth and ended up totally freaking her out.  I now use a guy who is based in France and travels over to the UK to work one week a month, he's very good with the horses and the vet has checked his work and is happy the guy is qualified.

To sum up just becuase a EDT is listed or qualified doesn't make them good.


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## Indy (29 July 2009)

Marcus is qualified - I checked his qualifications when I started using him.  

Does it cost money to have your details advertisede?  If so could he have opted out of being listed?


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## MardyMare (29 July 2009)

Well I use one that is not on there but has qualifications from America and I wouldnt change him for anything.  He is great with my horses and improved one of my mares from his first visit (after wanting a second opinion from using one that was UK qualified) I have used him for 4 years now


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## stencilface (29 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
Marcus is qualified - I checked his qualifications when I started using him.  

Does it cost money to have your details advertisede?  If so could he have opted out of being listed? 

[/ QUOTE ]

Is that Marcus Fasey from Yorks area? I haven't used him but plan to when my current (very old but not qualified) dentist retires.

I have used one of the guys on that list, and although they may be qualified they have absolutely no confidence around horses, and turned a usually calm horse into a complete nervous wreck, needless to say would not have again


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## Sarah1 (29 July 2009)

I thought he was!  
	
	
		
		
	


	




As I say we've always found him very good &amp; I would recommend him to anyone that asked...


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## Hoofprints in the Snow (29 July 2009)

I think I use the same dentist as you. He does a good job and doesn't rush.


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## Sarah1 (29 July 2009)

Yep one 'n the same!  
	
	
		
		
	


	




He's always been very understanding with my lad even when he's been throwing a hissy fit about having his teeth done!  He's very patient and know's how to treat the horses so that they don't walk all over him but he's not being rough either.


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## Rana (29 July 2009)

Have used 3 from that list and 2 not on the list.

The 2 not on the list actually did a reasonable job (checked by vet) but I wasn't 100% convinced about using someone unregistered (even with strong recommendations).

1 on the list insisted on every horse being sedated before she'd even look at it.

1 on the list was awful and I can't quite believe he's still in business - but he's the EDT to have in this area, recommended by all vets.  Blood everywhere, terrified horses, never again.

The other one on the list is good, very calm with the horses and the patience of a saint!  You know who you are


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## Sarah1 (29 July 2009)

Ours qualified in US too originally but is now qualified in UK...


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## miss_c (29 July 2009)

Mine isn't on the list, but she's a vet who specialised in Equine Dentistry.


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## MurphysMinder (29 July 2009)

Well both the ones I use are on the list, but I knew that cos I had already checked.  It is interesting about the chap that is apparently qualified but not on the list, I do think it needs clarifyiing if people have to pay to go on the list.  Alternatively, if this guy has been missed off I would have thought he would have reason to be pretty put out.  
I once used someone who had qualified abroad (not on the list) and works part over here and part abroad, he did a good job on donkey but was VERY slow, and when he came to do pony, she threw her head about a bit and he said he couldn't do her without sedation which was fair enough.  Rather than wait to tie in his next visit with vet I had her teeth done by vet, with sedation.


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## dieseldog (29 July 2009)

Because I have used three of the dentists on the qualified list and none of them were very good, in fact one was awful.  So much for being qualified.

The first one decided to ignore that fact that my mare had a tooth missing which meant that the top one had 'grown' down into the gap left and the poor horse had a tooth that was an inch longer than the rest - how can a dentist miss that?  

The other two came up to do our horses, sat and slated the  the horses teeth saying that whoever had done it last was awful etc etc - except they had done it last.......

The one I use now is £45 so I don't think is any cheaper than a BEVA one.  But he does a good job, unlike the BEVA ones 
	
	
		
		
	


	





There are probably good BEVA ones somewhere just as there are good non BEVA ones.


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## Indy (29 July 2009)

Marcus is very good, he is very patient and spends time with the horse.  I like him a lot.  The only problem is now my boys are at home it's a pain to get the electric rigged up for Marcus to use the electric rasp.  We could do it but it's just awkward so I have been speaking to Paul Waudby - he doesn't use electric tools just a hand held rasp and he says he is quite experienced with miniature shetlands so would be happy for me to inflict my shetland on him.  

Does anyone have any experience of Paul Waudby?

Marcus is very good though


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## Sarah1 (29 July 2009)

I don't have experience of Paul Waudby sorry - will keep my ears open tho incase anyone on yard has used him...


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## Flame_ (29 July 2009)

My horse dentist isn't on the list but I've used him for years, I've never had any problems, he fixed a mare I bought who quidded and he's an absolute dude. No reason to change IMO.


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## CrazyMare (29 July 2009)

Well you know my feelings on it.

I ment to reply to your last PM acctually, I'd totally forgotten...sorry!

Have those of you who use unlisted EDT's checked that they are acctually insured in case something awful happens while they are treating your horse?


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## The Bouncing Bog Trotter (29 July 2009)

I'm getting confuddled. Are there two bodies who register and recognise 'horse dentists'? And if there are 2 bodies please can someone explain, in layman's terms, the difference between the 2 bodies?
Thanks in advance.


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## VictoriaEDT (29 July 2009)

am being brief as i am on mobile.

rubyredshoes - http://www.wwaed.org/
here is the other organisation of recognised EDTs but not as big/well known as BEVA and wwaed members cannot join the BAEDT. BEVA exam also runs in conjunction with the british veterinary dental association.

To the others: NO you do not pay to be on the list......you pass the exam then you go on the list. Not sure why Marcus is not on there, dont know much about him but will find out.

Rana: thank you!


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## cbmcts (29 July 2009)

I'd happily use a BEVA EDT.....if I could get one at under £80 per horse. If you add in sedation for the silly sec D my 6 monthly bill for 2 horses would be over £250. I'm in South Essex and there are no qualified EDTs locally so you have to pay an arm and leg in travelling costs (doesn't seem to make any difference how many people they are seeing in an area)

I've used "qualified abroad" EDTs and vets in the past with very mixed results. Some were just ok, one or two were worse than useless and actually made matters worse. In fairness, my Sec D is a muppet and very difficult to deal with once he starts to lose the plot but so many of them didn't appear able to stay calm around him which always made his behaviour even worse!

I now use an "old style" guy who's been doing teeth for years - my vet hates him because he's not qualified - but even he admits that he does a good job 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 Only £20 a time too or £10 if no work is needed and after 2 years with him we can now do the welsh with just sedalin instead of nearly a GA.

The other thing I like about him is if there is something he thinks is too technical for him he has no hesitation in recommending that you go to the vet.


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## JLav (29 July 2009)

Our local father and son team don't appear to be on the list either but they are very definately qualified!! 

The father was one of the first lot of dentists to pass the exam and his son passed the year after.

Why would they not appear on the list?


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## Hollycat (29 July 2009)

The guy I used to use down south was not on the list.  However he does a lot of top dressage horses (olympic level) and does a fantastic job. That is good enough for me.

As part of my curent job I check the teeth and health of equines in our care.  Compare the work done by vets v EDT and it is terrible.  Many vets still do not use a gag!!!!!!!  I woud always use a qualified EDT over an unqualified person or vet unless I knew the unqualified person/vet was actually the better technition.   After all if you have toothache you go to the dentist, not the dr!

As someone else said - as with anything you get people that are good at their job and people that are bad at it.


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## VictoriaEDT (29 July 2009)

cbmcts: I charge £45 and I know at least 3 up north that charge £35 and a few in the south that are £45-50.


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## Hollycat (29 July 2009)

Personally I think £45 is cheap considering how much this benefits the horse.  Most people don't blink at paying £50 for shoes every 6 weeks so £45 for an EDT every 6 months is a bargain!


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## VictoriaEDT (29 July 2009)

you are my new favourite person!!!


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## Vicki_Krystal (29 July 2009)

This is something that does actually drive me mad - BEVA isnt the be all and end all that people think it is.

My dentist is a certified EDT trained in America and does lots of work abroad for well known Equine charities - he isnt on that BEVA list so my peoples thoughts he must be rubbish?? he must be fly by night???

Lol IT REALLY ANNOYS ME as i too have used one of those on the list while my EDT was off with severe health issues and he was booked in to do 4 horses and i asked him to leave my yard after starting just one - he was rough, violent and im positive was scared of the horses and was being aggressive to cover this.

With my own EDT I do however have happy horses when they are done, his work is second to none and i trust him with my most nervous youngsters to bargy to55ers as i know he will never take a strike in anger!

So if im negligent by not using an EDT from the holy BEVA list then so be it!


ETS -AND YES HE IS INSURED!!!!


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## JanetGeorge (29 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]


My dentist is a certified EDT trained in America and does lots of work abroad for well known Equine charities - he isnt on that BEVA list so my peoples thoughts he must be rubbish?? he must be fly by night???



[/ QUOTE ]

The problem with a horse dentist who is 'just' American 'certified' is that there is - as far as I'm aware - no independent certification of equine dentists in the USA - they are 'certified' by the school at which they've trained.

Now if it's a GOOD school that sets and maintains high standards, that's fine!  They are probably just as competent as an EDT - and many BEVA EDT's trained at the good schools in the USA before coming back here to sit the BEVA exam.  BUT, some of the colleges will 'certify' anyone who pays for a basic course and doesn't kill a horse in the process.

Not ALL BEVA EDT's are perfect - but at least if you use a BEVA EDT there is someone to complain to if the work is not up to a competent standard.  AND their competence has already been thoroughly checked by someone other than a self-styled 'college' that is making money out of training and certification.


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## cbmcts (29 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
cbmcts: I charge £45 and I know at least 3 up north that charge £35 and a few in the south that are £45-50. 

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd happily pay £45 but the cheapest I've come across for a qualified EDT has been £55 some years ago and on top of that you have to add travel costs as there is no one BEVA qualified in Essex.

There are a few "qualified" EDT (including a vet) in the area but my experience of them, probably because I have a diificult horse hasn't been great - while I understand that they are not prepared to be injured (nor do I expect them to risk injury by the way) their horse handling/sense leave a lot to be desired IMO. There is no point in being fantastic with their teeth if you can't get near the horses mouth 
	
	
		
		
	


	





In saying all that 
	
	
		
		
	


	




I am aware that my muppet horse is at fault here and I do think that having the exam and registration is a good idea, there is still room for someone who isn't highly qualified but has that knack with the difficult horses.......I'm not knocking anyone who has worked their b*tts off to do everything by the book and get their BEVA status.But there are good and bad in every area and because my area hasn't got a lot of choice re EDTs there is an attitude that they don't need to deal with my scatty animal - plenty of work elsewhere maybe?


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## Indy (29 July 2009)

Why aren't qualified people on the list?


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## Vicki_Krystal (29 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


My dentist is a certified EDT trained in America and does lots of work abroad for well known Equine charities - he isnt on that BEVA list so my peoples thoughts he must be rubbish?? he must be fly by night???



[/ QUOTE ]

The problem with a horse dentist who is 'just' American 'certified' is that there is - as far as I'm aware - no independent certification of equine dentists in the USA - they are 'certified' by the school at which they've trained.

Now if it's a GOOD school that sets and maintains high standards, that's fine!  They are probably just as competent as an EDT - and many BEVA EDT's trained at the good schools in the USA before coming back here to sit the BEVA exam.  BUT, some of the colleges will 'certify' anyone who pays for a basic course and doesn't kill a horse in the process.

Not ALL BEVA EDT's are perfect - but at least if you use a BEVA EDT there is someone to complain to if the work is not up to a competent standard.  AND their competence has already been thoroughly checked by someone other than a self-styled 'college' that is making money out of training and certification. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes this is true - but 18 years of experience says enough for me - ive been using him since i was 7....

As for the BEVA ones being checked - spot checks would be good as some of them are no better than a vet and its supposed to be their profession....


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## PaintboxEDT (29 July 2009)

because they dont have the BEVA recognition,if you read the BEVA website it eplains what you have to do before you are able to sit their exam.the 300 cases that they want you to do before you sit the exam are easy to get but it is the 40 advanced cases that are not so easy,purely because you dont come across them very often,meaning that it can be a while before you get all the cases together to go for your BEVA.


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## dieseldog (29 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
because they dont have the BEVA recognition,if you read the BEVA website it eplains what you have to do before you are able to sit their exam.the 300 cases that they want you to do before you sit the exam are easy to get but it is the 40 advanced cases that are not so easy,purely because you dont come across them very often,meaning that it can be a while before you get all the cases together to go for your BEVA. 

[/ QUOTE ]

So to become qualified you have to be expert in something you aren't going to need to use  
	
	
		
		
	


	





Is BEVA the best qualification to have?  Who decided that BEVA is the be all and end all of horse dentistry?  Would that be the people that founded BEVA and got round to marketing it and own BEVA and make money from BEVA?  Why is BEVA better?

Why is someone who does not have BEVA not fully qualified?  That is like saying I am not a Chartered Accountant because I studied CIMA and not ACCA.  There is no legal requirement for someone to be a BEVA is there?


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## JanetGeorge (29 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]

Is BEVA the best qualification to have?  Who decided that BEVA is the be all and end all of horse dentistry?  Would that be the people that founded BEVA and got round to marketing it and own BEVA and make money from BEVA?  Why is BEVA better?

Why is someone who does not have BEVA not fully qualified?  That is like saying I am not a Chartered Accountant because I studied CIMA and not ACCA.  There is no legal requirement for someone to be a BEVA is there? 

[/ QUOTE ]

CIMA and ACCA are both - I believe - RECOGNISED qualifications.  If you said you'd trained with Joe Blogs' school of accounting - or bought your qualification as a voucher with your pack of Wheat-bix you would NOT be qualified.  

There is no legal requirement (at present) for ANY qualification for equine dentistry - anyone can buy a mouth-gag, a set of rasps and a galvanised bucket and try to destroy your horse's mouth for profit!!

BEVA is the British Equine Veterinary Association - in the UK, the BEVA qualification is the only RECOGNISED and quality-controlled qualification.  But anyone can choose any cowboy with a set of rasps to do their horses' teeth.  Not me!


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## eoe (29 July 2009)

cbmcts - where in Essex are you because Stuart Garrad does my horses and has done for quite a few years now and he does an awful lot of horses in Essex and also spends 1 to 2 days a month at my vets as well and he charges £40 Per horse.

Be very careful if you use and unqualified EDT because if they cause a problem and you have to get the vet out you may well find out to your cost that your insurance company won't pay as they are not a recognised EDT.


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## PaintboxEDT (29 July 2009)

the things that they say you can do after becoming BEVA recognised are permissable but not legal at the moment,and most have to be under vet supervision,the same as before you have got the BEVA,it is also not a qualification as such it is just BEVA recognising that you are competant at your job,and to get the BEVA you have to do alot of horses to build up the cases,its ironic really,obviously i do not condone the people that pick up tools and try to do the job,they are wrong for doing this but the trained ones should be given a little slack,it doesnt always make them bad dentists just because they have not sat the BEVA yet but also it doesnt always make them good dentists if they have !!!


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## JLav (29 July 2009)

I still don't know why my local EDT's aren't on the list?

Doug Vieweg sat the first ever BEVA/BVDA exam and passed with distinction so why is he not on the list? When BEVA printed the first list of those who had passed in the Horse and Hound he was on it.

His son Simon also sat and passed the exam.


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## Araminta (29 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
Well I use one that is not on there but has qualifications from America and I wouldnt change him for anything.  He is great with my horses and improved one of my mares from his first visit (after wanting a second opinion from using one that was UK qualified) I have used him for 4 years now 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

You know what - this always makes me a bit cross because I know that the people that set up the society in the first place trained in the States before they got together and worked out the exams then got the vets on side. - I have no problem with that - I just find it very strange that the people who they like to say are "not qualified" are the ones who did the very same training as they did!!!!!!!!!!! a bit double standards I think.

Of course there are good and bad people in any trade. Also, some people are classed as good by most clients but there will always be personality clashes ( both human and horse)

I know of some very good " unqualified" people that have horses best interests at heart and would be far more experienced than those who are newly qualified. 

Yes of course there will always be the cowboys out there but I always find that word of mouth is the best recommendation you can get - qualified or not !


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## Araminta (29 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
I still don't know why my local EDT's aren't on the list?

Doug Vieweg sat the first ever BEVA/BVDA exam and passed with distinction so why is he not on the list? When BEVA printed the first list of those who had passed in the Horse and Hound he was on it.

His son Simon also sat and passed the exam. 

[/ QUOTE ]



There are several that I can think of not on that list!


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## VictoriaEDT (29 July 2009)

For some of those that dont see my point of view, i think it is because you have not seen some horrendous/damaging work that I have.

This profession needs regulating and I cannot understand why people cant see this.


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## ponydentist (29 July 2009)

Why did you not complain to the BAEDT (British Association of Equine Dental Technicians).....thats what it is there for...so you can complain if you are not happy....it is our professsions regulating body...designed to look at things like this and improve STANDARDS....But remember...you cant complain about those who are NOT registerd though (and if you aint Qualified....you aint registerd....they wont even be Insured if anything goes wrong because the ONLY Insurance company providing medical malpractice insurance for EDTs will only supply cover to Qualified EDTs and to earn the title EDT (Equine Dental Technician) you have to be qualified. If someone doesnt keep up the standard of work required to qualify  ....they can be investigated and discipinary action taken against them.....so why didnt you complain if you wernt happy. These things are there to protect YOU....the general horse owning public for whom we provide a service. (personally I work for your horse)


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## ponydentist (29 July 2009)

Doug and Simon Veiwig are not on th Current BEVA list of approved dentists simply because they have chosen not to renew their membership of the BAEDT (British Association of Equine Dental Technicians) for the same reasons as I did two years ago (I have since renewed). 

They are Both Qualified. There are others who are not on the list but who are, nevertheless qualified, they simply are not current members of the BEVA...or they may be Qualified through the ONLY other approved qualifying agency for Equine Dental Qualifications, WWAED (World Wide Association of Equine Dentistry).

So, In short......You can be QUALIFIED through the BEVA (British Equine Veterinary Association)...or the WWAED . If you qualify through the BEVA, you are eligible for membership of the BRITISH ASSOCIATION of EQUINE DENTAL TECHNICIANS...and ONLY if you join the BAEDT, will you be placed on the list on the BAEDT website and the BEVA website.

If you choose to QUALIFY through the WWAED, you are not eligible for membership of the BAEDT (because there are some people in each association who dont like each other).

BUT....the most important thing to remember here is not about where and how you qualified.....but the very fact that you HAVE qualified is PROVING to the EXAMINING BODY of either organisition that you are capable, and competant and knowledgable and skillfull enough to prtovide the required "STANDARD" of treatment......and that is what all the fuss....and certainly my biggest bloody problem. There are people out there (veterinary and non veterinary) leaving work undone, leaving horses in pain and discomfort and taking money from good people simply because they DO NOT KNOW WHAT THE REQUIRED STANDARD OF TREATMENT IS ......BECAUSE THEY WONT....or CANT get qualified.

Most of the time they have no desire to get qualified because you lot are paying them anyway regardless...so why should they.....why does someone with some "CLOUT" in the horse world not highlight this problem.

Stop employing the unqualified....think about your horse wekfare instead of your pocket .....and then see the size of the Que to sit the exam.


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## brighteyes (29 July 2009)

Me, I have Paul Waudby and wouldn't let anyone else within 100 miles of my horses now 
	
	
		
		
	


	





Thorough, patient and explains everything.  Kind and fair on the horses.  I can't recommend him highly enough.  Oh and very reasonable charges  
	
	
		
		
	


	





He puts the minis on a table to do them. Not really 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 I think he lies down, but don't quote me!


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## ponydentist (29 July 2009)

AAARGHH!...God I could pull my hair out over this.

Kristal....your EDT ...(if it is GD) is a USA certified (means he passed the certification exam through the Academy in IDAHO).....many years ago....the exam standard has improved since then)...He then came back to the UK....DIDNT work to nthat standard.....sat the BEVA exam....AND FAILED .....TWICE.....because he wasnt good enough....simple as that...he failed ALL parts of it, PRACTICAL, THEORY, the whole lot.....thats why he isnt on the list. He does lots of charity work abroad...AND.....(and heres the most shocking part)...He started up a Equine Dental Training Course over here in the UK (one week Duration). This Training course is the most attended course for people wishing to become Equine dental practitioners in the UK....which means that there are.LOADS and LOADS of people out there doing your horses teethwho have attended a ONE WEEK COURSE, which was run by a guy who failed the Industry standard exam....TWICE...because he couldnt treat horses to the required standard and didnt possess enough knowledge of his subject to pass a theoretical exam either.

what do you make of that.???

IF you are wanting to know if a practitioner is QUALIFIED or not......CONTACT the BEVA....or the BAEDT and ask them....give them the name of the person concerned and they will have lists of all people who have sucessfully completed ALL the required elements of the INDUSTRY STANDARD EXAM ....If they have passed the exam, they are "Qualified".....regardless of weather they are a member of an association. Remember there are practitioners who have FAILED the exam (VETERINARY and NON VETERINARY...because the exam is open to both because there is NO OTHER similar exam within the Veterinary profession which is specific to EQUINE DENTISTRY ) who are still out there doing your horses teeth.

In this country, The Industry standard exam is the only thing that says weather or not an equine dental practitioner is "GOOD" or not. If you are "GOOD", you will pass the exam....if you are not as good as you think you are....you wont.

If you are employing a practitioner.....VETERINARY...or non Veterinary who hasnt passed the exam....ask them why......What have they got to hide???? The people who have passed the exam have put in the effort and hard work to prove to YOU that they are "GOOD".


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## Vicki_Krystal (30 July 2009)

What do i make of that?? err well nothing cos i know he runs the dental college.

Do you feel threatened by him or something? as i fail to see why u would be so unprofessional to practically name him and then slate him on an open forum???


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## brighteyes (30 July 2009)

<font color="blue">AAARGHH!...God I could pull my hair out over this.  </font> 

I think you probably could - but don't! I have been there, with all the other owners, totally unaware of the lack of expertise and legitimate qualifications held by the tooth rasper (and his ilk) who attended to my horses' teeth.  Luckily, it appears that, whilst he did no harm, he didn't do a lot of good either 
	
	
		
		
	


	





Once I made my mind up to get to the bottom of it, I found it relatively simple to find someone willing to take time to explain the ins and outs of it all and then find an EDT who ticked all the boxes 
	
	
		
		
	


	





It's something you don't like to admit or face up to, the fact you have (albeit unwittingly) allowed a cowboy to perform invasive procedures on your animals with no real proof of either valid qualifications to do so or having actually done anything at all to improve or rectify problems in the mouth.

Whilst confusion reigns as to who exactly has passed the latest industry standard exams and why they might not be on the list (if you can work out which list is THE one) then you are going to get those happy to exploit this leaky bucket of a 'profession'.  

Ask Victoria to point you in the right direction.  She will.


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## ponydentist (30 July 2009)

Right....Victoria has put "the list" up on here now so you can all see it....just to help you out a bit...the Vets who have bothered to prove their skill and knowledge of this specialist subject...are the ones with MRCVS after their names. See how many...OOPS...how FEW there are.

Would you use an un registerd....un qualified FARRIER?

Would you take your kids to se a dentist who had only done a one week course...(or as is the case with many vet ED practitioners....a 3 DAY course)

Equine Dentistry is a  SCIENCE and as such is progressive....if you dont move with the times....you get left behind. What you are doing now might be obsolet. If youve had good traing...AND KEEP IT UP...you will be able to say you are good at what you do! if you are good....you will be able to prove it....pas ANY test....right? or wrong?


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## NR99 (30 July 2009)

I use an EDT from the list and he was recommended by my vet to boot, as the vet appreciated he was a specialist in the field in the exact same way a farrier is.  

EDT's you are fighting a losing battle with the Qual/Unqual war, as whilst people perceive someone is doing a good job they will not change, but the tide turns eventually with those that find they were wrong and once they find help from a good EDT they are converted.


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## ponydentist (30 July 2009)

NO....I dont feel theatened by him.....or anyone else within the profession. Just annoyed that he is churning out "dentists" who profess to be expert and who are taking money off " vunerable" horse owners who have very little choice but to believe what such people are telling them. I have to go in behind such people, as do many of my collegues and tidy up the mess left by them. It is not he fault of such people who have trianed by this route eithe rif they are being told that what they are doing is sufficient......its just a case of the blind leading the blind.....And I do Know hat I am talking about because IN MY EARLY NIEVITY, I was asked, (and did for a while) to instruct and teach on the courses he was running.S were some of my collegues, who also quit for the same reasons. I stopped because I didnt agree with the principles and methodology of such training. He was allowing people to go out and practice who had attended the courses who just werent "up to it". Some of these people then went on to become teachers on the courses and the whole thing became a BUSINESS venture rather than an outlet to service a need within the Equine Medical market.

So, yes I have practically named and shamed......but you have the nerve to call me UN professional after what he is doing to the whole Industry....hmmmm! 

It is a FACT that the Quality of Equine Dentistry training in the UK is far less than that which is available in the USA. Thats why many of us went there....it was three times more expensive...but well worth the expense, time and effort.

The certification exam through the Academy in Idaho takes place over a two week period over which candidates are examined on at least 14 horses, ponies or Mules. Many of these cases involve very ADVANCED treatment procedures and those examining are MASTER Dentists, Including eminant Veterinary surgeons and Human Dental Surgeons.

The BEVA exam, or the WWAED exam takes place over two days, on ONE horse. However, the standard of treatment required is very high...and the requirements to even be considered for examination are high....but its all there is over here.


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## Vicki_Krystal (30 July 2009)

I dont doubt your ability as a EDT at all - point is no names were mentioned until you brought it up.


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## brighteyes (30 July 2009)

<font color="blue"> EDT's you are fighting a losing battle with the Qual/Unqual war, as whilst people perceive someone is doing a good job they will not change, but the tide turns eventually with those that find they were wrong and once they find help from a good EDT they are converted.
 </font> 

Is exactly what I wanted to say.  Or thought I had.  Nicely put!


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## ponydentist (30 July 2009)

Maybe its about time names SHOULD be mentioned......Mine has a few times....Ive got NOTHING to hide. The good ones have been named.......why not name the ones who should be shamed?


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## hellspells (30 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe its about time names SHOULD be mentioned......Mine has a few times....Ive got NOTHING to hide. The good ones have been named.......why not name the ones who should be shamed? 

[/ QUOTE ]

Because that would surely be classed as a defamatory comment don't you think??

I use dentists that happen to be on the list, however even if they weren't I would still use them as I am very happy with the their standards.  The same has to be said if for any reason in the future I had to change EDT's.  I would find one through word of mouth, that I was happy to treat my horse reg or not reg.


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## Indy (30 July 2009)

To be fair, the list VictoriaEDT is a bit misleading, as somebody else has pointed out you can pass the BEVA qualification but not renew your membership and get on the list.

So are you saying that they are no longer qualified even though they have done the training/exams just because they haven't renewed their membership.

Or am I missing the point?


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## VictoriaEDT (30 July 2009)

I agree!

but believe me there are very few that are qualified but not on the list. Marcus Fasey, Viewigs.....in not sure if there is anyone else? perhaps ponydentist can confirm this.

TBH I was of the assumption that if you pass BEVA you go on the list then whether you decide to become a member of the BAEDT then you go on the BAEDT list and if not you stay on BEVA and not on BAEDT.

I guess it is this way to encourage all qualified EDTs to become a member of the BAEDT, so they can be sure that you will sign the contract to abide by the performance guidelines that BAEDT set. Those that chose not to join, I assume BEVA dont want to advertise because they will not have signed this contract.......which is understandable i suppose?

If you are unsure, the thing to do would be to ring BEVA and ask them whether the EDT is BEVA qualified or not. Also, express your concerns about the system if you wish.......afterall, it is in place to protect you and your horses.


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## sleepingdragon10 (30 July 2009)

This is a really interesting conversation...a little concerned that the dentist I use isn't on the list despite the fact that she came highly recommended and i was very happy with her work on my chap


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## M_G (30 July 2009)

My dentist is not on the list but came highly recommended by my old dentist (now retired) yes he was trained in the army before EDT's were thought of in civilian life &amp; I trust his judgement.

The chap he recommended to me has been fantastic so calm and kind just like Bernard was &amp; you can hear the tone change when the job is done correctly (Bernard used to make me listen then get me to feel what he had done)


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## Persephone (30 July 2009)

Interestingly one of the dentists on the list had a look at my mare as he was on a yard visit and we were new there. My mare had been done two weeks previously by my vet and this EDT said what a cracking job he had done!


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## JanetGeorge (30 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]

Because that would surely be classed as a defamatory comment don't you think??

I use dentists that happen to be on the list, however even if they weren't I would still use them as I am very happy with the their standards.  The same has to be said if for any reason in the future I had to change EDT's.  I would find one through word of mouth, that I was happy to treat my horse reg or not reg. 

[/ QUOTE ]

It's NOT defamatory to say that someone is not qualified in the UK - or that they failed an exam - or 3 - provided that information is correct.

As for being 'happy with their standards' I would question whether many horse owners know enough about horses' mouths - or can examine them adequately - to be able to profess themselves happy.

I've owned and worked with horses - in many very professional yards as well as my own - for more than 50 years.  I have ALWAYS taken an interest in my horses' teeth - and always take the opportunity offered by both my vet and my EDT to 'feel' the problems they find - I can recognise the obvious - and some of the not-so-obvious.

BUT - unless you are equipped with a mouth-gag and a good torch AND a comprehensive knowledge of what is RIGHT, you CANNOT be sure your 'dentist' is doing a good job!


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## Indy (30 July 2009)

I knew Marcus was qualified - I was one of his first clients when he started out.  He was a bit put out when I asked him to bring his certificates with him on his first visit!!

I think Marcus is great and used him for many years but his motorised rasp thingy just puts me off because we would need to run a cable from the house to the stables and with the tractors and trailers running in and out it's not really the safest plan.

Anyway I've looked at Paul Waudby's website and he sounds spot on, I think he'll get on with my boys and BrightEyes highly recommends him so hopefully I can get him to come out.  Plus to be honest, I don't know enough about the horses mouth to make an informed decision on a good job or a bad job so of course I'm going to try  and choose the very best person I can for the job.

I think eventually dentistry will become more regulated and the non-qualified people will gradually be phased out after all every other aspect of equine care is quite strict.  I just hope people won't stop using dentists when the non-qualified folks go out of business.


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## ponydentist (30 July 2009)

M G,

Bernard R, was definitely one of the "OLD SCHOOL". You dont judge a good job by the sound the rasp makes......or judge how much rasping has been done by rasping away whilst sing "Its a long way to Tipparary" and when the verse is over there is enough done and move on to next horse...(yes   this does happen.....not by Bernard, but by another old timer from his "ERA")

I served four years in the Royal Army Veterinary Corps watching horses having their teeth done in the late seventies, early eighties and belive you me.....you wouldnt have wanted any of those tooth raspers anywhere near your horse.

When Bernard had to retire through Ill health, Brandsby home of Rest for horses contacted me, at the Advice of their vet, to come and take over the dentistry there. Bernard had been going there for the previous 10 years. Their vet had never seen such messy mouths and It took me and the several students I used to take there with me, 2 years of going there once a month, to eveentually sort out the mouths of all their 280 resident horses donkeys and ponies, as well as the new cruelty and neglect cases they were constantly getting in.

For those of you who think your dental provider is GOOd and are happy with their standard I ask this:

How do you know what they do in your horses mouth and how do you know if what they do in there is correct, thorough and sufficient for that particular horse mouth and jaw confirmation??

How do you know if they have left the correct molar table angles and not altered them too much by too much floating??

How do you know if they have left the correct ammount of all three tooth materials on the occlusal surfaces to enable the horse chew effectively...???

How do you know they have removed EVERY problem causing enamel point and reduced the height CORRECTLY of EVERY Excessive transverse ridge, or ptentially unbalancing tooth RIM??

How do you know if that mouth is More balanced....or less balanced than it was before they started work on it. How do you know that any bit seats installed were evenly symetrical?

you can all tell this from a quick feel in your horses mouths can you???...and you are all quite happy that your practitionner is leaving all your horses mouths correct are you???

You are all sure that the advice given you on choice of bits for your particular horses oral confirmation is correct?? or advice on any other problems is CORRECt and current in accordence with the most uptodate research...are you?

If your practitioner has only done a one week course over here in the UK, they wont be doing all the above correctly.....BECAUSE they wont have been taught those things....so how do you know that your practitioner is "GOOD".

They might be good with your horse, have lots of nice shiney instruments, nice uniform, write neat little record sheets (how do you know what it says on them is correct and not just total bull***t), they may be charming, good looking and able to talk the hind legs off a donkey.....but is that how you judge if they are a good dentist????

Qualification takes all the guess work away from you......all of those above things HAVE to be correct....or you wont Qualify. It is there to provide assurity for you that an individual is compitant in all of the above and much more.....but if you aint been there (the exam)....how can you know what standard is required. The Standard is devised by many extreemely skilled and knowlegable experts who have studied Equine dentistry in great depth...both vet and non vet. Surely their interpretation of "good"....is greater than yours with regard to skill and knowledge of such a specialist subject????


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## Arabelle (31 July 2009)

Ponydentist, I am sorry, I am going to have to say this.  You come across as a bit ranty and SHOUTY on this subject, which is not doing your argument any favours - I don't let ranty, shouty people handle my horses.

I realise you feel passionately about your profession, but the patronising way you refer to horse owners who don't necessarily agree with you is also a huge negative in encouraging people to take your professional accreditation seriously.

I use my vet, he is as qualified as I require as fortunately my horses don't have any dental issues.  If I had a problem with my horse that could relate to her mouth, I might explore further.  I don't have a problem - quite the opposite, so I can't be browbeaten in treating your (incomplete) list as a bible.
A


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## sleepingdragon10 (31 July 2009)

How do we know that anything we are told isn't total bullshit? I don't know if my dentist has done a good job...that's why I employ a dentist in the first place!


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## tiffany1 (31 July 2009)

iam not used to responding to this sort of thing however i do feel Mr or Mrs pony dentist that you are not behaving in a professional manner at all. You seem to enjoy ranting about other people and belittling thier abilities and then crowd all those not a member of your club as being of no worth. within the industry i am familiar with there is a condition for people who choose to increase thier own credability by putting others down. Also you are very brave saying all this while remaining annonimous its the sort of character i would love to treat my horses, NOT. In my time i have used dentists from your group of puritanicle believers and each one destroyed the work of the others. It is due to this fact that i now use a person not of your faith, on asking how the horses mouths were the reply was simply it would be unproffessional if i were to critisize but maybe they had a long term treatment plan. the dentist then went on to carry out the work explaining as they went along all they were doing including how the muscles on the head effect the way the animal both eats and works. so pony dentist my advice to you is to wind your neck in identify your self because until you have checked the work of all the non believing you should keep your counsel and try to help people with dental problems without ruining other hard working professionals who may be more professional than you are by remaining out of the school play ground politics. so sorry this has come across as a rant but i do hate a superiority complex. have a nice day.


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## Indy (31 July 2009)

Just a bit off topic but the guy who sings 'It's a long way to Tipperary' came to do some horses on a livery yard I kept my horses on many moons ago.

He stopped to look at one of my lads and started talking about him, I told him his history etc and the man insisted I didn't know what I was talking about and that he most certainly wasn't a full TB let alone an ex-racer and that I was making it up when I said he had won a good handicap at Goodwood.  He then moved onto my other horse (another TB who used to be an all-weather sprinter)  and insisted he was an arab with a bit of Welsh Cob! I was not a happy chicken that day at all!  Totally irrelevant to the topic but just thought it might lighten the mood a touch


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## VictoriaEDT (31 July 2009)

Guys I know who ponydentist is and although you may not like the way he has come accross on here, I can tell you that he is most definatley a good EDT and practices in an extremely calm considerate and respectful manner. He is just passionate and probably feels like he is banging his head against a brick wall which I am sure you can understand is very frustrating.

When you are "in the thick" of the legislation/politics and clearing up after some of the appauling work that we see on a weekly basis and feeling incredibly sorry for the owner who believed she was doing the best for her horse. This is what makes his comments come across in the way that they do and I am certain it is not intended.


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## hellspells (31 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Because that would surely be classed as a defamatory comment don't you think??

I use dentists that happen to be on the list, however even if they weren't I would still use them as I am very happy with the their standards.  The same has to be said if for any reason in the future I had to change EDT's.  I would find one through word of mouth, that I was happy to treat my horse reg or not reg. 

[/ QUOTE ]

It's NOT defamatory to say that someone is not qualified in the UK - or that they failed an exam - or 3 - provided that information is correct.

As for being 'happy with their standards' I would question whether many horse owners know enough about horses' mouths - or can examine them adequately - to be able to profess themselves happy.

I've owned and worked with horses - in many very professional yards as well as my own - for more than 50 years.  I have ALWAYS taken an interest in my horses' teeth - and always take the opportunity offered by both my vet and my EDT to 'feel' the problems they find - I can recognise the obvious - and some of the not-so-obvious.

BUT - unless you are equipped with a mouth-gag and a good torch AND a comprehensive knowledge of what is RIGHT, you CANNOT be sure your 'dentist' is doing a good job! 

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes I really can - working in the veterinary industry gives me the knowledge I need to know this fact.


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## Indy (31 July 2009)

But not everyone does have extensive veterinary knowledge. 

 I've horses for 26 years and the extent of my knowledge of a horses mouth is picking the plaque off their teeth (is it gross to admit that I quite enjoy doing this)?.  Surely the easiest way to make sure that somebody is doing a job right is to get a professional who is qualified in that area otherwise I might as well just get a rasp and have a go myself.  Then I too could go into business as an 'equine dentist'  

I just think the qualification route is a fool proof way of being able to get a professional for the job.  Would people have an unqualified farrier out (I suppose loads of you are now using unqualified farriers too) surely a horses mouth is as important as its feet.

Goes off humming it's a long way to Tipperary!!


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## emma69 (31 July 2009)

The biggest problem I have with what you have said here, is that being on that list doesn't guarentee any of those things either. One person on that list came out to do a couple of livery horses, and like others, the thought was, they are qualified, they must know what they are doing. Fast forward a few days to the horse being ridden for the first time since the work being done. Horse threw his head around, obviously not a happy bunny. Even as someone who knows very little about teeth, I could put my fingers inside the horses mouth and feel sharp edges and part of a tooth broken away. Had vet out, who isn't on that list, but has extensive experience of horses mouths including surgery on mouths, and he said it was one of the worst cases he had seen of poor dentistry. Had it been my horse, I would have been furious and taken it further, but the owner did not.


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## Indy (31 July 2009)

That to me is the point of using somebody qualified. If they do a rubbish job and it's detrimental to the horse's wellbeing then you can report them and get them struck off or make them have remedial training.

There's going to be qualified people who don't do a job as well as they could - then it's up to the horse owner to complain about it.  If people don't complain how can anything be done about shoddy work.

For an unqualified dentist doing a rubbish job - what can you do - apart from hunt them down and insert their rasp somewhere where it hurts?


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## VictoriaEDT (31 July 2009)

Sorry to hear that Emma, I am assuming you were in the UK when this happened?

This is why we sign the performance guidlines contract.....to give you guys the peace of mind that we will abide by them and if something goes wrong and like your post, a vet will prove it then you get on the phone to the BAEDT or BEVA........again thats what they are there for, to protect you and your horse. This could lead to legal action and the EDT being removed from the register.

Unfortunately there is no come back and no governing body representing the unqualified EDT.


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## emma69 (31 July 2009)

Yes, in the UK. I understand there is recourse in instances like this, but it wasn't my horse, so not my say so. I personally used the vet, he was experienced, and he did a good job (as far as I could tell as a lay person) certainly no issues with horses eating / bitting etc, and he resolved some issues with same. Again, there is recourse if the vet screwed it up tho. 

All I was seeking to do was to respond to the other poster who insinuated that if the person is qualified and registered, they must be doing a good job (in terms of balance, correct angles etc). This is not necessarily the case, and whilst you may have recourse if they are reigstered, if the horse presents no obvious sign of pain (as the horse in my case most certainly did) or if the owner cannot recognize signs of pain, what then? I do think word of mouth counts for a lot, especially if the people telling me they are happy with the work performed for them over the years are experienced, knowledgable owners. If I wasn't happy with my vet doing it, that is how I would go about finding someone, not through a registered list. Ideally, yes, they would be qualified through a recognized body, but that alone would not be enough for me.


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## hellspells (31 July 2009)

Emma I do entirely agree with you in your post above.


Indy I was only replying to JanetGeorge's reply to me - I was obviously not suggesting everyone has the knowledge required - only that I do, which she was questioning.


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## JanetGeorge (31 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]

Yes I really can - working in the veterinary industry gives me the knowledge I need to know this fact. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh dear!  Sorry - but that's about the most arrogant thing I've read on this forum!

Working in the veterinary industry doesn't make you an expert on equine dentistry (unless you ARE a very experienced EDT or vet!)  Even being an equine vet doesn't NECESSARILY make you foolproof!

I had a horse here for reschooling - owner wasn't happy about horse's mouth - despite having had it treated by TWO vets in 18 months!  Owner was right - horse was slightly parrot mouthed and had HUGE hooks at the back that had never been touched!  He was treated by my vet - behaviour improved, eating improved, condition improved!


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## Wishful (31 July 2009)

Just a point to put into the mix - given that horses are living longer, is it sensible to keep rasping teeth until they are "perfect"?  Apparently more horses, especially those whose teeth are done regularly by dentists are running out of teeth by their early 20s/late teens.

Some vets are more conservative about how much work to do on teeth than others, and some EDTs seem to be more keen for the mouth to be perfect, regardless of the consequences in later life, when the horse runs out of molars to chew his food with...


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## VictoriaEDT (31 July 2009)

Wishful that is a very good question!

When it comes to rebalancing and reducing the height of the teeth; we dont reduce the occlusal (grinding surface) surface of all the teeth, just the ones that have become dominant and then overwear the opposing tooth. That way the "overgrowth" is reduced to its correct height (not over raspsed to de age the horse) and thus allows the opposing tooth to grow down over time. 

Each tooth is treated individually where it comes to occlusal surface work. If the EDT over rasped every tooth surface, then this would bring them out of contact and the horse would not be able to chew.

Routine rasping a completely different matter. The surface of the tooth is generally left alone (if no overgrowths need to be addressed) and the cheek sides of the uppers (occassionally the palatal aspect too) and tongue side of the lowers are rasped as these are the areas that get incredibly sharp and need rasping to prevent cheek and tongue ulceration.

Does this answer your question?


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## Araminta (31 July 2009)

This topic could run and run .......

I think most people on this forum have a certain amount of knowledge and speaking about the people I know will choose their dentist carefully through word of mouth or vet recommendation.

As I have said before, there are good and bad, talented and not people out there in all jobs.

Some people just keep quiet and get on and do their job to the best of their ability.

Others ( like Ponydentist) may do the same but I don't understand why they also feel the need to rant and put others down. Behaving like this on an open forum is very silly and does your organisation no favours at all.


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## Araminta (31 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]



Each tooth is treated individually where it comes to occlusal surface work. If the EDT over rasped every tooth surface, then this would bring them out of contact and the horse would not be able to chew.


[/ QUOTE ]



This happened to a horse of mine after " power work" I was told he needed.

£250 later ( cost of sedation as well) my horse was unable to eat for 3 weeks. He look like a walking coat rack and we had to keep him going with soaked calm and condition that he just swallowed ............. and yes, the work was carried out by a fully qualified edt and yes, my vet was horrified!

I must admit I do get worried that so many dentists now just want to use power tools all the time. I can see it is easier than manually rasping but surely it is nor so good for the poor horses teeth? ( or the owners bank balance!)


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## VictoriaEDT (31 July 2009)

Hmm thats not good. You should have spoken to the BAEDT or BEVA about it.

I saw this a lot in the States where they made every tooth as smooth as a car bonet, which felt all well and good to our fingers but useless to the horse as the grinding surface was removed. Then when the mouth was closed and the cheek pulled back, you could see a gap of at least 2-3mm where the cheek teeth didnt meet. Their way of dealing with this was to reduce the incisors to drop the cheek teeth back into occlusion! Not good as this then alters the way TMJ (jaw joint) is sat. 
This is why each tooth should be treated individually!

I dont mind if this runs on and on.......if people have questions they want answering then i will try and answer them! 

For the record, I dont charge any more to use power over had rasps!


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## JS65 (1 August 2009)

Not read the replies, but my EDT came the other day to do mine.
 His apprentice started to do one and i stopped him.

He was quite put out that i refused to let his non qualified helper do my horses teeth, saying that he has to learn.

 Well sorry Mr EDT, but i waited 3mths for an appointment and pay a certain amount of money to have them done properly by a qualified person, so no, you won't be called upon again.


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## hellspells (1 August 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Yes I really can - working in the veterinary industry gives me the knowledge I need to know this fact. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh dear!  Sorry - but that's about the most arrogant thing I've read on this forum!

Working in the veterinary industry doesn't make you an expert on equine dentistry (unless you ARE a very experienced EDT or vet!)  Even being an equine vet doesn't NECESSARILY make you foolproof!



[/ QUOTE ]

I never said I was foolprof - just like everyother human being I am not perfect.  However your rather scathing remarks in your first reply which suggested I was a idiot and new nothing about equine teeth was what the above was in response to.  I am merely informing you I am not a idiot and guess what I do know whether my horses have been done properly and well.


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## ponydentist (3 August 2009)

just to answer "wishfulls" post (as victoria has done so very well), the fact is that horses seen regularly by dentist are NOT running out of tooth.....that statement is Propaganda relesed by the Veterinary Industry to scaremonger.  The aim of corrective dentistry (balancing a mouth etc) and thereafter maintainance dentistry is to enhance and preserve the longivity of equine teeth.

The use of power instruments to do the treatment is a a matter of personal choice as well as requiring a huge ammount of skill and knowledge of dental anatomy. I have a large inventory of equipment and instrumentation and use hand held Instruments for all "routine" maintanance work and a combination of hand and power for corrective work, where more work on  specific or individual teeth is required as this is what power instruments were originally developed for.


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## Araminta (3 August 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
just to answer "wishfulls" post (as victoria has done so very well), the fact is that horses seen regularly by dentist are NOT running out of tooth.....that statement is Propaganda relesed by the Veterinary Industry to scaremonger.  The aim of corrective dentistry (balancing a mouth etc) and thereafter maintainance dentistry is to enhance and preserve the longivity of equine teeth. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Just wondering, why would the Veterinary Industry state this to scare people - scare them from what? having their horses teeth done? 

I have to say that we were taught that horses only have so much tooth to last their lifetime and constant use of power tools could a. remove too much tooth over a period of time and b. cause teeth to loosen in older horses. Are you saying this is not true then?


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## VictoriaEDT (3 August 2009)

Power tools would definately not loosen teeth when the horse ages, in my opinion it would be hand floats that would do this. If you think about it, power is mainly a reciprocating disk that grinds down the teeth without any force what so ever. Hand instruments require a hell of a lot of pull forces to file them and this is the reason why I mainly use power for geriatrics with little root and tooth stabilisation as pulling the tooth by hand would make it worse.

Again to clarify, power tools only reduce the teeth that have become dominant and need reducing on their surface. if a horse has no overgrowths then NO tooth surface work will be carried out so would not "remove too much tooth over a period of time".


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## ponydentist (3 August 2009)

Yes, to scare people from having their horses teeth done by dentists. The claim is not that many horse done dy dentists and vets are having their teeth life destroyed...is it?

This is the whole point of the qualification process. 

If you do remove too much tooth you will not be approved. If you do not fully understand the full science of equine Dentistry you will not pass the required standard. The basic principles of detistry is to preserve tooth longivity. Dental Abnormalities occury for many reasons. Once discovered they can be esily rectified or corrected using CORRECT treatment plans and by facilitating the most suitable equipment for the specific task. If there are large amounts of tooth to be removed or reshaped then power instruments can be the most suitable for the job. However, where the operator does not have a thorough understanding of the basic principles or is not skilled enough in the use of such equipment, irreparable damage can be, and is often done.

Remember that if abnormalities in teeth are left uncorrected their wear on the opposing tooth will reduce the longivity of that tooth the same way as over correction may do. It is this recognition of such problems which is part of the qualification process and practitioners are required to demonstrate a FULL understanding of such.

In my experience. too much undercorrection is done as opposed to over correction. I see far more expired teeth which have been overworn by other teeth rather than through correct dentistry.

In a domestic environment we are able to detect iregularities and abnormalities with our horses.....In the wild they go undetected and as nature denotes......the animal dies.


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## Araminta (3 August 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, to scare people from having their horses teeth done by dentists. The claim is not that many horse done dy dentists and vets are having their teeth life destroyed...is it?

This is the whole point of the qualification process. 

If you do remove too much tooth you will not be approved. If you do not fully understand the full science of equine Dentistry you will not pass the required standard. The basic principles of detistry is to preserve tooth longivity. Dental Abnormalities occury for many reasons. Once discovered they can be esily rectified or corrected using CORRECT treatment plans and by facilitating the most suitable equipment for the specific task. If there are large amounts of tooth to be removed or reshaped then power instruments can be the most suitable for the job. However, where the operator does not have a thorough understanding of the basic principles or is not skilled enough in the use of such equipment, irreparable damage can be, and is often done.

Remember that if abnormalities in teeth are left uncorrected their wear on the opposing tooth will reduce the longivity of that tooth the same way as over correction may do. It is this recognition of such problems which is part of the qualification process and practitioners are required to demonstrate a FULL understanding of such.

In my experience. too much undercorrection is done as opposed to over correction. I see far more expired teeth which have been overworn by other teeth rather than through correct dentistry.

In a domestic environment we are able to detect iregularities and abnormalities with our horses.....In the wild they go undetected and as nature denotes......the animal dies. 

[/ QUOTE ]


Why would they want to put people off using dentists?

We were told ( and shown using models!) that over zealous use of power tools can lead to tooth problems later on. Made sense to us - were we taught wrong then?


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## VictoriaEDT (3 August 2009)

Totally depends on whether they are used properly. There is no research to date showing the long term effects and this is because dentistry with power tools has not been about long enough to perform scientific studies.

However, short term research has shown that if power tools are used in the "wrong hands" then thermal damage can occur and maybe even pulp exposure. Again, this only emphasises the importance of them being used by qualified EDTs only; in proven experienced, knowledgable hands.

So to sum up, in my opinion; power tools are absolutely invaluable..............but only in the right hands


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## Araminta (4 August 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
Totally depends on whether they are used properly. There is no research to date showing the long term effects and this is because dentistry with power tools has not been about long enough to perform scientific studies.

   *** That is my point - there is no long term reasearch to say that it causes no damage long term - but the I guess you could also say that there is no research to prove that it doesn't !

However, short term research has shown that if power tools are used in the "wrong hands" then thermal damage can occur and maybe even pulp exposure. Again, this only emphasises the importance of them being used by qualified EDTs only; in proven experienced, knowledgable hands.



  * **  Correct me if I am wrong but thermal damage occurs if too much heat is generated during use of power tools?  Am I right in believing this is why many dentists use water cooled tools? and that exposing the pulp would only happen if too much tooth was removed by over zealous use of the dremel?

I agree 100% that power tools should only be used by experienced, knowledgable hands but there are dentists out there ( I am not talking about cowboys here) but very experienced, competent people who have chosen - for whatever reason - not to take the exam as laid down in its present format, should they be not able to work?


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## dorz (6 August 2009)

Hi all,
I came across this forum by complete chance and have read most of the posts.
I'm glad to see Vic EDT and Pony dentist really fighting there corner.
Let me tell you where i am on this!.
I went out to west Virginia for one month in 2003 to do an introductory course in equine dentistry i came home with a nice certificate to say that i had attended the course,IT DID NOT QUALIFY ME FOR ANYTHING.
It showed me the basics of equine dentistry,at the time BEVA and a handfull of EDT's had sat down and put together an Accreditation exam that if you passed you went onto the BEVA approved EDT list on there web site and also avaliable from your local vets.
So the story so far,just because someones says they have qualified in the states its not recognised by BEVA.
When i came back from the states i was lucky to hook up with Ivan Stockdale twin brother of Tim Stockdale the showjumper,Ivan is the best EDT i have had the pleasure of working with.
So how do you get qualified?,firstly you have to do an advanced course at Hartbury college you can only do this with 2 references from your local vets,so before you can go anywhere you have to convince your vets your genuine about what you do!!.
Ok,once you have done the advanced course you can then apply To BEVA for a place on there exam course,one is held once a year i think with places limited to about 12 (when i took mine there was a 70% failure rate).
So requirements for the exam are,2 vet refs,400 dental charts,40 of advanced procedures overseen and signed by a vet and at least 5 days spent with a BEVA qualified EDT,all this info gets forwarded to BEVA who then write to EDT you spent your 5 days with asking if your good enough to take the exam,if yes your given a date,but thats not the end,you are encouraged to do a pre-exam weekend usually run by Grant Chanter at one of the mounted household barracks where you are coached and assessed and if at this point not deemed fit to take the exam are encouraged to train a bit more.
When the final day comes to take your exam its run over 2 days,mine was at The Royal Vet Collage potters bar,the first day is written exam followed by charting cadevers,the results are posted at the end of the day,if you dont pass the theory your not asked to attend the practical the following day.
So,if you make it through to the practical you have one hour to asses and develop a treatment plan for the horse you are to work on which has already been examined by the examiners and attending vets.
After your hour you clean up your tools and go home and waith for the letter to arrive.
The decision is final there is no arguing the panels decision is final,if you are successful you go onto the BEVA register and are invited to join the BAEDT.
Now being a member of the BAEDT has its requirements too! firstly you have FULL MEDICAL MALPRACTICE INSURANCE and you do at least 5 days a year of continuing development.
Basically if your EDT is not BEVA qualified or WWAED qualified then the'yr not qualified and recognised in the U.K period!.
It took me three and a half years training with Ivan to be good enough to pass so if your using a BEVA QUALIFIED EDT then you have the BEST of the BEST!
I wouldn't dream of using a non qualified farrier or vet or physio so why would you use a non qualified EDT?,if its a bout money then its false aconomy!!.
If this seems like i'm on my soap box its because ive worked long and hard to get my qualification and as i type the law is changing and legislation is being put forward to DEFRA,when this is law the good old fashioned tooth raspers will be just that!.
Times move forward and as with any science new techniques are found to be able to do more and so is the same in Equine Dentistry the difference is in the people who train and keep up and invest time and money in maintaining that.
I trained with who i think is the best EDT in the country,Ivan Stockdale my horse has the SECOND best EDT in the country ;-).
My horse is precious to me and so is his welfare,do yours a favour and use the best you can.


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## ponydentist (9 August 2009)

Well put Dorian.

The simple answer is that the qualified EDT has NOTHING to hide.....But what DO you have to hide if you are a practitioner who has been out there taking money from unsuspecting horse owners for years.... and...... despite having been invited to take the exam.....you still havnt bothered( Its down to a question of morals, principles and scruples)....the truth is that the vast majority of people who are out there practicing who are not qualified dont want to take the exam because they wouldnt pass it....or have taken it and have failed....and that includes the Veterinary profession. The sooner we are all playing on a level playing field the sooner the better. Then the better (or more devoted, passionate and honest amongst us) ones wont have to go around clearing up the mess and crap work of those tooth raspers, wannabees and vets who cannot be bothered.   

Remember, you dont HAVE to be qualified to perform acts of Equine Dentistry. There is no legal requirement.....AS YET  (but watch this space....its getting smaller) Therefore, those of us who ARE, have done so for one main reason,,,,,to prove ourselves TO YOU.


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## LMuirEDT (11 September 2009)

Just a couple of points i want to reply to on here. 

Just because an EDT isn't on the list doesn't mean they have no qualifications/training at all.  There are other official ways of training like the BEVA/DEFRA/BAEDT endorsed Hartpury courses.  I'm not saying you should use any old boy off the street but everyone has to start somewhere.  

Belittling other peoples work is v low in my opinion, especially if you are not willing to put your name to your statements.  As stated here before, if you (a fellow EDT or a member of the public) have a problem with someones work who is registered you can go to BEVA/BAEDT to complain and get them investigated.  Also trading standards would be interested i would have thought.  

The issue of insurance.  Someone said that if an EDT isn't BEVA registered/qualified then they wont be able to get insurance cover - rubbish!  I've not done the BEVA exam and I am fully insured.  

The term EDT is not only restricted to BEVA qualified technicians.  The term 'dentist' is however restricted to only those who are human qualified dentists.  

Just my thoughts...


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## VictoriaEDT (24 September 2009)

Nobody is Belittling anyone Lorraine.

and more importantly I have said before on this forum and paintboxEDT will confirm that EDTs training for the BEVA exam need to be supported as well. This is not aimed at people like you it is aimed at the many many rogue EDTs that I am sure you will come accross in the future.


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## danandyozz (4 February 2010)

it's £120 a year to join BAEDT i've just sent my cheque off!


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## ksavic (6 March 2010)

Guys and gals. Whilst all of the above has weight to it, horse owners should ask these questions and choose their qualified or unqualified EDTs to work on their horses; 1. Do they handle the horse in a manner you like? 2. Do they use a spec to look in the mouth and hold the mouth open so they can reach the back teeth (you cannot rasp the back teeth properly without a spec apparently) 3. Are their tools clean and in working order, for example have sharp rust free blades? 4. Do they allow you to look and feel their work before and after? 5. Do they give you a record sheet detailing the state the teeth were in and work performed? 6. Does your horse seem happier after being seen? 7. If unqualified, is your EDT working towards the exam? It takes around 2-3 years to build up case studies and experience to sit the exam so give them a chance before ruling them out. 8. Get a second opinion.
All of the above are just a few things you should askyourself as there are good and bad qualified EDTs/unqualified EDTs and Vets. Sadly i feel their are more vets who are rubbish than unqualified EDTs as they rely on sedation coz they can and people trusting they know what they are doing because they are vets! Last but not least - all the qualified EDTs who are banding the 'must use a qualified' banner, be mindful of the fact you were all once unqualified and how reluctant the BEVA are to support unqualified EDTs unless they have been lucky enough (or maybe unlucky) to have been rammed up a qualifieds backside preparing for the examination. Have any of you got an apprentice at the moment with whom you are fighting/supporting the cause of more qualified EDTs? I know of several students at uni unable to get a qualified EDT to help them get qualified!!! 
Let commonsense prevail as you do with your car mechanic, babysitter etc etc


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## Tharg (7 March 2010)

I use Marc Higgins who is on the list, he was patient with the mare and explained everything he was doing and answered all my questions.

  Geegeequeen you make a good point but the average owner may not realise these things and fail to check them.

  As consumers BEVA/BAEDT are groups that we can turn to rather than a randomer operating on their own.


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## hairycob (7 March 2010)

Vicki,

I'm sorry to diagree with you but if you are using the EDT suggested  by another poster I wouldn't let him within a mile of my horses (2 of which were regularly "treated" by him by their previous owners - that's my reason). The Vet's first comment on one of them was that she desperately needed her teeth rasping - he had been to her a week before!


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## mrdarcy (7 March 2010)

[ QUOTE ]

Just wondering, why would the Veterinary Industry state this to scare people - scare them from what? having their horses teeth done?  

[/ QUOTE ]

Very simple. Money. Vets make money from doing teeth. If an EDT does them instead they lose income.

I wouldn't have a vet do my lot's teeth unless they'd done the BEVA exam. I used to and the difference between their knowledge and the EDT I use now was massive. Vets know a little bit about a lot of horse problems, some vets know a lot about very specific horse problems (when they've specialised), and some vets should stick to cows and sheep. Would you let a vet shoe your horse? I don't think so. 

Btw for those who have mentioned him in this thread I use Paul Waudby and would highly recommend him.


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## dieseldog (7 March 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
Quite a few people local to me have recommended several EDT who all don't appear on the BEVA list and therefore they are not fully qualified? is that right? 

Why use someone who isnt fully qualified? I know they are quite a bit cheaper but surely wouldnt you rather use a fully qualified EDT? 

I was amazed to find my local sport horse stud (which is a well known very successful stud) uses a guy who isn't fully qualified so do a couple of instructors I know! 

Just a Q!?  
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

Because the worse dentist I have ever used was a qualifed EDT - thats why not.  Just because they are qualified doesn't mean they are any good.


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## piebaldsparkle (7 March 2010)

I think I've used that one off the list once too, but never again............blood ever where as he seemed to rasp more tongue than tooth. 
	
	
		
		
	


	




  My mare used to be good for the dentist.

My current dentist isn't on either list posted, but I am 100% sure he and his partner are qualified and they come highly recommended.  Whole yard has used them for about 3yrs, and all have shown improvement.


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## VictoriaEDT (7 March 2010)

All those that have had bad experiences, why dont you express your concern to BAEDT  - thats what they are there for. Otherwise this could never be recitified it the BAEDT dont know about it


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## ForeverBroke_ (7 March 2010)

Hm, my dentist isn't on there - but he's used with more or less all of the vets around here for powerwork, and he is actually BEVA/BVDA and ASED qualifiied. 

How bizarre!! 
	
	
		
		
	


	





Off his website too :

"He became a member of the International Association of Equine Dentistry (IAED) with whom he has achieved the coveted Advanced Certification, held only by two other people in the UK, and is now an elected member of the IAED UK  working closely with DEFRA and LANTRA and other bodies i.e. BAEDT and World Wide UK, to set a legally recognised standard for future UK equine dentistry courses and examinations."


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## eventer_girl (25 April 2010)

Dear all,
I am a &#8216;graduate&#8217; of the UK dental college run by &#8216;GD&#8217; that has been talked about hear (the six day course) &#8211; Don&#8217;t panic - I am not out on the road treating horses as I am not competent (and who would be after six whole days) &#8211; I like many where fooled and handed over thousands of pounds to go on a terrible, badly run course with instructors who couldn&#8217;t pronounce some of the more technical words in our course notes (seriously one of them couldn&#8217;t) I have just read on this forum that &#8216;GD&#8217; who runs the &#8216;college&#8217; failed the BEVA exam twice &#8211; no surprise there &#8211; may explain why he spent the entire time slating BEVA / BAEDT and saying what a waste of time it all was. Worst part? I know for a fact that at least two people who did the course with me are out in their vans doing our horses teeth. One of whom is advertising as  &#8216;fully qualified and comprehensively trained to the highest standards, within the UK&#8217; .......  I would still like to become an EDT but would never dream of trying to do your horses teeth now armed only with my nice &#8216;SEDC&#8217; certificate &#8211; but plenty people would and are &#8211; quite legally &#8211; for gods sake only use a BEVA or WWAED dentist !!!!!


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## Wishful (25 April 2010)

Most vets don't make a fortune out of doing teeth.  Most vets in large practices charge teeth at the same rate (or at a discount) as they do for any other routine procedure. If a vet is not tied up doing lots of teeth, then they generally have plenty of other things to be filling their time with - the equine vets I know are not scraping around looking for things to do during the day...  

My OH does teeth for some horses, he sedates for the dentist for others. He has no problem with dentists doing things properly, but there are some who take off too much/try to get things too smooth and perfect, in the same way there are some farriers he doesn't particularly agree with.  He tends to prefer horses to be sedated - a horse with a gag in it's mouth can do a lot of damage to those around them if it jumps/starts waving its head around..

Hopefully, over time, the number of EDTs will grow, and the position will be similar to where farriers are now - specialists who work closely in conjunction with vets (and who know when to call in a specialist vet to a more difficult/unusual problem).  Vets don't shoe horses (and would not exactly have time to do it as well as their current work load), but know the principles, how to remove a shoe if necessary, and take the x-rays farriers work from...


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## Saxon_Jasmine (25 April 2010)

I used Joanne Jovicic who has a BSc Hons in Equine Dental Science but she isn't on the BEVA list that was posted on here at the begining of the post. Does this mean she is qualified or not? Thanks


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## JanetGeorge (25 April 2010)

Saxon_Jasmine said:



			I used Joanne Jovicic who has a BSc Hons in Equine Dental Science but she isn't on the BEVA list that was posted on here at the begining of the post. Does this mean she is qualified or not? Thanks 

Click to expand...

The degree in Equine Dental Science is not a full qualification.  It exempts candidates from the theory part of the BEVA EDT exam - but not from the practical.

Having said that, students on that course DO spend quite a few days out with vets and EDTs and are probably better 'qualified' than some of the 'tooth raspers' who've been around for years but have no formal training.

It's very difficult to get to the stage of even sitting the BEVA EDT exam as you have to put together a portfolio of - I think - of 300 dental cases. They have to include 40 cases of more advanced dental procedures taking place under sedation and signed by a vet.  If no-one allows them to work on their horses, they can't put together a portfolio and can't GET qualified!

I personally wouldn't use an 'unqualified' EDT - BUT I have a young man working for me who is working towards qualification and I DO allow him to do minor work on my horses because he's worked under the supervision of my vet and I trust him to 'do no harm'!  I wouldn't feel the same about a stranger!


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## teddyt (25 April 2010)

A very interesting thread. With regards to 'The List', i phoned 3 men from it and just from the conversations over the phone i wouldnt book any of them! I was thinking about just carrying on with my vet but decided to phone one more- a lady. She had a totally different attitude (a good one!), no ego, happy to do my mini shetland as well as my TBs. She seemed like a 'horseman' as well as a dentist and i liked her approach, so i booked her and have used her ever since.

So being on the list is no guarantee that the dentist is right for you and your horse but at least it shows that they are thoroughly trained & assessed. Anyone can call themselves an EDT so being on the list gives you more protection than not being on the list. It doesnt however guarantee a perfect job. So i say use the list- but ring around if you can and choose the EDT that you like the best. Do your homework!


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## brighteyes (25 April 2010)

*QR to all*

If nobody else comes on here to qualify this, THE ONLY examinations, when passed, which QUALIFY you as an EDT, are the BEVA _or_ the WWAEDT ones.  As a successful candidate, you will feature on their database as such.  If you fail to re-register in subsequent years, you will no longer feature on the current list, but will be recorded as having passed the exam at some point. A quick call to either will sort that out.

Every successful BEVA candidate should then join the BAEDT.  May I just point out that the WWAEDT is _*THE ONLY*_ other organisation whose stringent examinations are recognised in this country - their website is here. It's a parallel organisation, but no less reputable than the BAEDT. *Both* organisations ensure practitioners are kept up to date with skills and 'current'  by means of regular, accredited training. Without membership (of either organisation) anyone claiming to be fully qualified and insured most certainly isn't!

If you ring the BEVA - who set up the examination system - they will tell you the name of anyone who has passed their exams.  Look at the current list of registered EDT's on either the BAEDT or WWAEDT website to see the names of currently registered and insured EDT's. That should clear it up!.

What is scary, is the number of people in possession of rudimentary skills and potentially injurous equipment who are happy to go around unsupervised and carry out procedures they are not fully trained to ON YOUR HORSE'S MOUTH!

Sorry, but I don't care how good they appear to be/you think they are/they make themselves out to be, if they haven't a) passed the recognised British exams and b) remained current, they should not be calling themselves EDT's.

It is easy enough to find out if they have.


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## LMuirEDT (25 April 2010)

brighteyes said:



*QR to all*

Without membership (of either organisation) anyone claiming to be fully qualified and insured most certainly isn't!

Sorry, but I don't care how good they appear to be/you think they are/they make themselves out to be, if they haven't a) passed the recognised British exams and b) remained current, they should not be calling themselves EDT's.

It is easy enough to find out if they have.
		
Click to expand...


I have to disagree with this.  I've not done the BEVA/WWAED exams and I am most definitely fully insured.  The term EDT isn't solely for those who have taken those exams either!


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## brighteyes (25 April 2010)

LMuirEDT said:



			I have to disagree with this.  I've not done the BEVA/WWAED exams and I am most definitely fully insured.  The term EDT isn't solely for those who have taken those exams either!
		
Click to expand...

Could you, with all due respect, clarify what procedures you are 'fully insured' to carry out?


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## LMuirEDT (25 April 2010)

As far as my insurance policy is concerned I am covered to perform hand and power rasping on horses with various areas (eg injury to horses, public liabilty, etc) up to £2mill each area.  It does state in my literature that when I take the BEVA/WWAED exam then the policy will alter (eg premiums go down, value of livestock worked on increases, etc).

Personally tho I only use hand tools on unsedated horses and power tools on sedated horses and in conjunction with a vet but that is my own personal preference.


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## ponydentist (25 April 2010)

TEDDYT, I fully agree. 

When considering employing the srvices of an Equine Dental Provider, the first port of call should be lists of approved (by the approval providing bodies within the equine dental profession who really matter) and qualified (the ONLY qualifications in the UK presently are those gained through the BEVA or the WWaed.......nothing else matters for the purpose of "QUALIFICATION") practitioners.

However, not everyone operates in the same manner. Ist the same in existance within the human medical, dental, teaching, plumbing, farrriery etc, etc, etc profession. There are Doctors out there who obtained the highest levels of excellence but who's bedside manner is absolutely S**t and abismal. Therefore, I totally agree that you should really look at that list and then ring round and speak to as many of the practitioners on it and ask as many questions as you wish of them to decide if they are "Right" for you. In order to pass the exam and obtain the qualifications they all have to be capable, skilled, knowledgable and competant. However, once a practitioner is "Qualified", the issues of how, when and where they operate their own business is purely down to  individual choice.

Membership of or registry with a professional organisation or Association is not mandatory within Equine Dentistry as is the case with the veterinary and Farriery profession E.G. a qualified Veterinary Surgeon can only operate in the UK if he /she is registered with the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons. However, membership or registry with such an self regulatory body does offer some degree of surity to a perspective client, in that all members are bound by the associations performance standards and if a client feels agrieved by a members attitude, treatment of the clients animals, etc etc etc there is a course of redress or at least someone to complain to. Within equine Dentistry  the associations concerned are the British association of Equine Dental  Technicians (B.A.E.D.T)and the World Wide Association of Equine Dentistry. (WWAED).


BAEDT only accepts membership from those practitioners who have sucessfully completed the BEVA equine dental examination. Once a practitioner has passed the exam, they do not have to become a member of the BAEDT and as such are not governed by the association....or in fact by anyone at this present moment in time. 

WWAED accepts membership from equine dental practitioners regardless of weather they are qualified via the WWAED equine Dental Exam. However, they do state on thier list of approved practioners if that particular practioner who is listed is a qualified member or not.

The most important aspect to consider in this whole issue is that of STANDARD. There are lots of problems within equine dentistry and the bigest one that I am concerned with is what is being done to horses teeth...e.g. are some individuals are not carrying out thorough enough treatments and are some doing too much...equally both are doing harm.

It makes my blood boil when I am called to help with a horse who has "so called behavioral problems" ( I help people understand such problems in horses and this type of work is linked to my equine dental practice) and when asked has he had dental treatment, I am told "yes, he's had his teeth done" and upon further examination it is revealed that only about a third of ther work required has been attempted or undertaken and the horse is not saying "wont do it"......he is simply saying "cant do it" because he is uncomfortable or in pain. Yet some poor ususpecting owner has parted with good money in the mistaken belief that all is well. Equally when called to look at a horse who has received treatment to find that too much ahs been done and the underlying principles of dental treatment do not appear to have been understood by the dental care provider. Be aware that there are EQUINE DENTAL TECHNICIANS and TOOTH RASPERS.....and a whole host of each claiming to be better than each other.

What you can be assured of is that those who have put themselves up to be examined and who have been sucessfull, will all be carrying out the same STANDARD of treatment to their equine patients. They may not all have the same chitty chatty attitide....may not all drive big flash trucks with their name plastered all over it...may not all be excellent horsemen / women but.....when it comes to what really matters...eg have they done aeverthing that is required to be done to your horses oral health.... you can be pretty sure they will have. I would be more than happy to refer your beloved horse, if you were my client, to another practitioner who had undergone the same stringent testing as myself and be safe in the knowledge that that practitoner would proivide the same thorough standard of treatment as myself. They may not handle your horse in the same way as me, or provide advise or further care and advise exactly the same as me.....but hey....we are who we are and personality is not examined and tested.


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## brighteyes (25 April 2010)

LMuirEDT said:



			As far as my insurance policy is concerned I am covered to perform hand and power rasping on horses with various areas (eg injury to horses, public liabilty, etc) up to £2mill each area.  It does state in my literature that when I take the BEVA/WWAED exam then the policy will alter (eg premiums go down, value of livestock worked on increases, etc).

Personally tho I only use hand tools on unsedated horses and power tools on sedated horses and in conjunction with a vet but that is my own personal preference.
		
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Is the vet there simply for the sedation?  I think I am under the misapprehension that work with power tools is Category 2 and as such is not covered by your qualification?


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## LMuirEDT (25 April 2010)

The actual category 1/2/3 stuff is not legal as yet, it is just a guideline.  In order to sit the BEVA assessment you have to have done a certain amount of 'advanced' work which must have be signed off by a vet.  If you couldn't do power work without being BEVA/WWAED assessed then how could you get the work signed off in order to take the assessment - think about it.  I work alongside many vets in my area to work out a treatment plan for the horses I treat.  Many vets have called me up to work with them.


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## brighteyes (25 April 2010)

LMuirEDT said:



			The actual category 1/2/3 stuff is not legal as yet, it is just a guideline.  In order to sit the BEVA assessment you have to have done a certain amount of 'advanced' work which must have be signed off by a vet.  If you couldn't do power work without being BEVA/WWAED assessed then how could you get the work signed off in order to take the assessment - think about it.  I work alongside many vets in my area to work out a treatment plan for the horses I treat.  Many vets have called me up to work with them.
		
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I agree completely, a person needs to do the work to become proficient and have no argument with that, providing it is properly supervised!  What I was trying to establish was the extent of insurance cover with regard to the exams taken. My understanding is that only the BEVA/WWAEDT qualifying exams gave the medical negligence cover as well. I am quite prepared to believe you would have at least third party cover when working independently doing the procedures a BSc Hons in Equine Dental Science entitles you to do.

I am just being a bit pedantic because there are people out there claiming to be 'fully' insured when they are not, by virtue of their lack of recognised qualification/level of qualification.

Also it has been pointed out that the BEVA qualification, irrespective of current registration, does entitle you to insurance.  My bad.


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## LMuirEDT (25 April 2010)

Have to admit I find insurance a bit confusing so basically went through over the phone all the possible situations I could think of (injury to horse/handler/me, negligence, etc) to see if i would be covered and I am.  Probably sounded like a right loon but thought it was better  to check these things out.  So far not needed to test any of it out and don't intend to any time soon! LOL!


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## lannerch (25 April 2010)

I usually use geraint hughes who is on the list, last year however I could not make the day he visited my yard and anxious to get my horse seen too I rung a local person calling themselves an equine edt who is certainly not on the list or beva qualilfied to visit my horse with the oppnion it would be better than the horse not being seen at all. She had the following letters after her name EqDt IAED.

She came spent about 10 minuites on my horse filled in a chart  which said generalised excessive transverse ridging buccal rims minor ingual nhs advanced bitseat and balance, sounds all very impressive so far,  and charged me £35 saying she would need to see him in a years time.
 Luckily a month later I was in the yard only to see geraints car pull up, he was meant to be at the neighbouring yard so I managed to get him to fit me in. He spent over half an hour on my horse who remember had been seen only a month previous, let me feel before and after all the very sharp points on his teeth which were making him sore.

For that I was charged £45 a bargain in comparison.

My equine vets also recomend geraint and you can book him through them.

I know which one I will always in future be using to me  its a no brainer, a service that has been shown to be an aproved standard or someone that possibly has atended a couple of day courses!


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## lannerch (25 April 2010)

Have just found the sheet the unqualifed edt filled in on the day, all sounds very impressive I wonder if she puts it for all her clients it says etr311 generalised excessive transverse ridging buccall rims minor lingual rims advanced bitseat and balance.

And I wonder why if this is the case she did not do anything that rectified the problem that is except charge me £35!


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## ponydentist (25 April 2010)

just for the record and to apease all those who have asked me to I'll come out of hiding. If you look on a post in this thread by "mrdarcy" you will see that (at bottom of his post) he is a client of mine and anyone wishing to know more can google me and view the website. My comments on here havve upset a few people but hopefully have enlightened a lot more....and hopefully tried to ensure that a lot of horses are recieving a proprer standard of dental care.

Equine Dentistry is a Science and as such is ever progressing and changing. New developments in instrumentation and techniques are occuring all the time. In the 11 years I have been practicing, proceedures once thought necessary have become obsolete and new ones replaced them. New materials are being used by me and the few other practitioners who specialise in certain areas of equine dentistry. When I first started out, restorations (e.g fillings) and other areas such as periodontal treatments were only just being considered as treatable. I trained with a practitioner who pioneered modern treatments of such problems and am now able to carry out proceedures and treatments not once thought possible. 

I am passionate about what I do and my method of working incorporates my other passion of horse behavioral studies and natural horsemanship if some wish to term it as such and my reputation is based around this way of working and my knowledge of subject. Not all practitioners work the same way, but by putting oneself up for examination and testing is, in my opinion, a declaration to my clients of commitment and dedication to my profession which in turn is a investment to them and some kind of surity that i know my stuff and am good at what i do.....not in the eyes of my clients....but in the eyes of those who hold.
any "clout" within my profession.

Whilst there are those practitioners who are working towards such qualifications........there are those who do not feel that they need to demonstrate to their clients that they are good. sadly in such cases this is because they are getting by on the money being paid to them by unsuspecting clients and as yet havent been found out. But they will be in time.  

The horse owning public can dictate the way the whole equine dental profession is run. If they demanded that only competant practitioners who have demonstrated to theire superior peers that they are competant and capable of providing the correct level of treatment.....there would be no problems of inconsistency in equinedental treatments.....and.....the most important thing is......all horses would be recieving equal treatments.....because at the moment.....they are not.....not by a long chalk.


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## brighteyes (25 April 2010)

ponydentist said:



			.  

The horse owning public can dictate the way the whole equine dental profession is run. If they demanded that only competant practitioners who have demonstrated to theire superior peers that they are competant and capable of providing the correct level of treatment.....there would be no problems of inconsistency in equinedental treatments.....and.....the most important thing is......all horses would be recieving equal treatments.....because at the moment.....they are not.....not by a long chalk.
		
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I'm pretty sure mine are


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## chrisnapthineEDT (25 April 2010)

also to add another point exams dont get run that freqent,ive been waiting nearly 2 years now and hope that there is one run this year but im still learning and will be every day i spend in the industry,,heaps of people out bthere think that they now know everything,,, i spent nearly 8k just last year on training and see that to keep up to date on advances and to keep my own skills up and not lapse into bad habits il have to continue to do this,,,,there is so much bad work been done out there you just wouldnt belive it,some done by registered some not,i for one wish to hell things would change but it dousnt look likely so all you can do is keep doing good work and keep educating clients but a lot of people class all dentists as one and the same..... but belive me there is a heap of difference between a 5 minute 20 quid job sometime without even a spec and the job that a another dentist will do(trying to word things right here )  work out my training and equipment cost each year!!! your talking 10 to 15 pounds per horse,,thats the difference between a 30 and a 50 quid job or a 20 and a 40...i could sell all my kit apart from a few floats,run blunt  blades,not botherr with anything bad i see just do what i think,wear nice clothes and be very polite,flirt a bit and make all the right noises,maybe i would even remember your horses name,,,you would i guaruntee it say oh that chris what a nice lad,,,lovely fella..even remembered piggles name...hes always smart and on time,,has some lovely cards.... but my work would be s****t and to be honest without offence you wouldnt have a clue unless you got someone else to look but then why would you as you have had your horses teeth done!!!!!!  personally i can never remember horses names unless i print out your last visit sheet,sometimes im late but i do let you know.im never clean shaven as i tend to resemble a fat potato...but if ive done your horse it will be done to a high standard,and if there is something  remedial that needs doing  il tell you show you and often take a picture,and if its something really bad that i cant do il refer you to someone who can(example of a severe shear moth martin brookes is doing for me next week),,,there is a lot of dentists who work like this.i know pony dentist,dan astle carter ect i cpould name loads who are,yet unfortunatly for you/us and most important your horses there is far more (oh hes a lovely fella) than there are us...and on insurance i have full surgical cover its called a new policy for wwaed members from the nfu covering me for all hand and power work


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## brighteyes (25 April 2010)

*lannerch*

Don't think you are alone - I was ripped off for years.  And I feel I let my horses down. Least you only made an error of judgement the once...


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## brighteyes (25 April 2010)

*chrisnapthine*

I think the word is getting out.  I have converted loads of people over to using a properly trained, qualified EDT who believes in keeping abreast with all the latest developments and is passionate about his work. It took a huge amount of courage to ring this guy up and 'challenge' his credentials.  To his credit, he wasn't the least bit offended and my biggest regret is that I didn't find him sooner.  There are at least twenty horses round me now getting the treatment they ought to have been getting years ago.  I suppose that's something to feel better about.  

Publicity and awareness through forums shouldn't be under- estimated, and I found my EDT through Google.

The charlatans and cowboys will eventually be hounded out - one way or another. I personally can't wait.


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## eventer_girl (26 April 2010)

At the risk of sounding obsessed with GD  I have reason to be  see my previous post  he now seems to be seeking to deceive people that he is BAEDT member by using a clever (or not so clever) play on words ....

http://www.essexfoxhounds.com/horse_health.htm


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## ponydentist (26 April 2010)

Hey Bright eyes, What have you got against Cowboys then?....I actually was one....a real one..... for two years when I lived in the states....lol. 

Eventer Girl; dont worry, the Whole Equine Dental Industry knows about GD and the way he runs the Shires equine dental College. I know first hand better than anyone what Im talking about here. I used to be one of the principle lectures and instructors for that organisiation.....I belieive your course notes on dental ageing and several other subjects still have my name written on them..... I know exactly how it operates and believe me. There are many within the Equine Dental profession who are very displeased with the way The Shires equine Dental College is churning out so called EDT's and flooding the market with dissolusioned students and letting them loose on the poor unsuspecting horse owning public out there. The main problem with Equine Dental training in the UK is that there is nothing over here which is on a parr  with the training oppertunities that are available in other countries and the USA is by far leading the way forward in Equine Dentistry without a shadow of a doubt. When I started out, there was nothing here for Equine Dental training other than what the BEVA were offering....a two day course.This is why many of us have chosen to go down the USA route. It is extreemely expensive, but when investing in a lifetime career learning oppertunity.....still one of the best available. 

11 years down the line, very little has changed. Still the same BEVA two - three day courses...(for Vets) and now the Three year Equine Dental Science degree course which is very THEORY based but (offering very little in the way of actual hands on getting down to the nitty - gritty of dentistry) and of course the one week course which you have attended which is run by a twice failed BEVA practitioner and his students who have previously sat the course and are now the instructors.......blind leading the blind. So dont worry, we within the profession know all about what you are saying. You are not alone in your views and myself and many of my colleagues have enquiries from people who have attended the course you did and felt they couldnt justify going out there and purtaining to be Equine Dental Technicians.......but...on the other hand....a hell of a lot of other people who's ONLY training consists of this..... do go out and take money off people....and... such people are claiming  to be "qualified". but what is most scary is that they are of the belief that they are "Fully trained" when in reality, they are only scratching the surface, both of the teeth they are working on....and of the subject of which they have chosen to study.


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## eventer_girl (28 April 2010)

Thank you Pony Dentist! ... I&#8217;m not surprised to hear you are contacted by lots of people who have been on the Shires course and felt as I did. It does surprise and shock me that many people armed only with this amount and standard of training go out their treating horses and are deluded enough to honestly think they have appropriate skill and competence. And from what I can gather and from what Pony Dentist says GD and his crew are churning out many more &#8216;dentists&#8217; every year. The only solution is regulation??? I feel a fool for handing over my £ and going on the course in the first place! 
Pony Dentist &#8211; I have nothing against real cow boys, just the GD types lol ........ I wondered if you or any one on hear that&#8217;s in the industry was aware of an associate of GD&#8217;s who runs courses in Germany with GD (six day courses like Shires) He is a Scottish man called &#8216;AW&#8217; and works closely with Gary it would seem. I wonder how many more &#8216;dentists&#8217; have undergone this training in Germany. For the German courses they call them selves the global equine dental college. I&#8217;m assuming that&#8217;s just as much a sham as Shires.?


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## stencilface (28 April 2010)

Only just seen this post, and not read all the replies 

Our dentist could be qualified, but most likely not - we have never asked for any, and he certainly hasn't shown us any!  But he is as old as the hills, and has been doing our horse for at least 10 years I think, and in that time (with many oldies and youngsters) we have never had any issues with the bridles, teeth, eating (apart from a pony that had few teeth) or their weight.

The only time we have a 'qualified' dentist who was a human dentist turned horse (did a course in the US I think?) the horses would not behave for him, I think he terrified them tbh.  They almost never play up for our old jockey/gyspy dentist man.  The dentist himself doesn't have many teeth left, but that doesn't stop him being capable of looking after my horses


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## brighteyes (28 April 2010)

Stencilface said:



			Only just seen this post, and not read all the replies 

Our dentist could be qualified, but most likely not - we have never asked for any, and he certainly hasn't shown us any!  But he is as old as the hills, and has been doing our horse for at least 10 years I think, and in that time (with many oldies and youngsters) we have never had any issues with the bridles, teeth, eating (apart from a pony that had few teeth) or their weight.

The only time we have a 'qualified' dentist who was a human dentist turned horse (did a course in the US I think?) the horses would not behave for him, I think he terrified them tbh.  They almost never play up for our old jockey/gyspy dentist man.  The dentist himself doesn't have many teeth left, but that doesn't stop him being capable of looking after my horses  

Click to expand...

Yep, I had similar and fortunately (for all concerned) none had complicated mouths.  So, a no frills, no quals tooth-rasper didn't do any harm - but only addressed the sharp edges.

I became uneasy (unlike my horses, it must be said) about the 'wham bam and that's 20quid' approach, his horrendous appointments diary (none whatsoever), dismissive attitude to me as an owner (I know what I am doing, don't ask me to tell you ANYTHING about what or why) and ever more sensational tales and horse-related gossip.  He claimed to have qualifications but search as I might, I couldn't find him listed anywhere.

So I asked someone with plenty of easily verifiable qualifications, whether I was worrying unnecessarily.  Turns out my suspicions were correct and, whilst he did no damage to mine, there is a trail of equine dental disasters in his wake - including one belonging to a good friend of mine.  

I didn't question this guy's skill or experience for years.  What worries me is, if it takes the devoted disciple of the horse's mouth (a fully qual'd EDT with CPD) many years of training and countless supervised and regulated treatments and observations of the plethora of equine dental complications and anomalies, which poor devils did _your_ dentist learn his (presumably) self-taught skills on?  It doesn't bear thinking about.

I have no idea why we ponder and fuss and cogitate, nay attend symposiums on bitting and feeding and fret about our horses being 'on the bit', and then let anyone who walks the walk, talks the talk or symply looks like he knows the job, loose on the subject of many of our daily anxieties!  Well, not counting me and PD's other clients.

*ponydentist*

Have you got all you cowboy certificates for me to check and verify and run past the BCA, so I can believe your outlandish claims to such a thing?  Or I may have to ask you to rope a steer and sit a bronco next time you are here with your bucket of rasps!


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