# Neutering to do or not to do thoughts please!!



## devonlass (29 April 2012)

So I know this is a bit of a hot potato of a topic,but am genuinely interested in peoples varying opinions and why they have them.

I personally am not pro neutering for the sake of it.If the dog has no negative behaviour issues and there are no other dogs in the home of the female variety then why put a dog through a surgical procedure??

I have an extra problem in that my dog is an Irish Setter and they are know to suffer coat problems when neutered.At the risk ofsounding shallow part of the attraction if an IS is it's looks and I don't want one with a coat like straw that I can't show if I want to and has possible health concerns regarding coat/skin caused by neutering.

My last setter was never neutered and he was no problem in his behaviour.The only thing he did wa wander off if the kids left the door open,but silly sod was more interested in people than other dogs so always got brought back by someone fairly swiftly lol

My current setter is a year old in a few days and also has no negative behaviours that are related to his still having dangly bits!! He does hump other dogs occasionally but no more than many other neutered dogs (I believe humping anyway has been proven to be not soley related to sexual beahviour??),he never pees in the house or even attempts to cock his leg indoors,he loves ALL other dogs,but not bothered if they're male or female so no issues there as yet.Generally I have no concerns at all in regards to his health or behaviour that are connected to his being 'intact' so why would I neuter him??

I am a never say never type of person and of course if he becomes an issue in any way that is not manageble through training or avoidance easily of certain situations than I will look into having him 'done',but I am unsure whay so many do it as a matter of course at just a few months of age and I certainly don't intend to go down that road.

So what are others thoughts?? Am I not considering something important (I am happy to admit am no expert by any means just going on the grounds of common sense and what I see in my dog),or is it just personal choice and pressure from vets and such like that so many people neuter??

Not casting judgment BTW on anyone elses choice and I have know some dogs that definitely benefited from being neutered (generally dominance or scent marking issues),but just curious to find out the 'why's'.


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## vieshot (29 April 2012)

IMO the health risks associated with keeping a dog entire outweight those of having him castrated.


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## Dobiegirl (29 April 2012)

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?p=10642918#post10642918


I think the pros and cons were pretty well covered in this thread, Cayla gave some pretty strong evidence for the benefits of neutering.

As an aside it always surprises me that people who are against neutering often own geldings or neutered cats, just something to consider and very often its the oh who really dosnt like it because its a man thing.


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## Wiz201 (29 April 2012)

I've spayed my golden retriever and continued to show her afterwards. This is her now at 10 years old still looking beautiful and her coat is lovely and smooth.


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## amandat (29 April 2012)

There is a difference between cats & dogs though.  I had a cat years ago, kept him as a Tom & one day he never came home.   I got 2 more cats, brother & sister got them both neutered - the boy got run over & his sister decided to go elsewhere  ... i've now had George for 11 yrs & he woz neutered purely due to the fact that Tom cats will wander miles to find a female.  I got a Staffy he's nearly 2 & haven't had him neutered & i don't want to, i have no plans to breed him but at the same time i don't want to have him done.  There are bitches either side of us that have been neutered so maybe if they hadn't been & he was driving me mad i'd have to reconsider my decision


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## Dobiegirl (29 April 2012)

Wiz201 your girl is a beauty and looks amazing for 10years of age.

Amandat I just hope your dog does not go off a wandering after the girls he is also a prime candidate to be stolen.

Many years ago m- and f-i-l had an un-neutered collie for the cattle and that dog used to break out and service the local doggy girls who were in an interesting condition on a regular basis. That dog was a proper houdini and in the end both in laws had him neutered, it took a while for it to kick in but it stoppped his wander lust.


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## Alec Swan (29 April 2012)

Devonlass,

over many years,  I've had a great many dogs,  of both sexes.  I have admittedly sold many on,  when training for a living,  but knew of the outcome of most of them.  Others will contradict me,  but I have never had a dog with health issues because it was left entire.

If I want a dog for a specific purpose,  and with Man Work,  for instance,  it was always dogs and never bitches,  then it's my feeling that specifically with males,  castration de-masculinates them,  and I also find that though not all,  many take on a more effeminate expression,  a more effeminate outlook,  and what appears to be a weakened back end.

There is a very strong group on here who will castrate males because it suits them to do so,  and I do feel that there are those who treat it as a convenience.  I'm not amongst them and would always council against it.

There you go,  it's your dog and your choice!!

Alec.


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## Wiz201 (29 April 2012)

amandat said:



			I got a Staffy he's nearly 2 & haven't had him neutered & i don't want to, i have no plans to breed him but at the same time i don't want to have him done.
		
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Why don't you want him done if you don't want to breed with him?


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## galaxy (29 April 2012)

I haven't had H neutered and at the moment I have no plans to.

When he was a pup at the vets I asked when I should get him done and my vet asked why I wanted to.  He is of the opinion that unless you have a reason to (behavioural) leave them be.

I trust him as my vet and at 2.5 H has not given me any reason to want him done.  I do agility at a club that also does a lot of behavioural work too and have commented on his woosey personality and thank goodness I haven't had him done as it would make him worse!  I was quite surprised, but they have a good reputation in the area so I assume they know what they are talking about!

However if he did ever give me a reason to want them off, I wouldn't hesitate!  I'm not dead set against!


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## Dobiegirl (29 April 2012)

Alec I know your feelings on neutering they are different to mine but I respect
your views, however I have to take issue over neutered dogs having a feminine expression and weakened rear end.
All my neutered and spayed Dobes are going to give a burglar a warm welcome.

Perhaps some lines are more effiminate than others but as mine are all rescued and came with behaviour issues(now ironed out) I also think training has a lot to do with it. My dogs are not sharp by any means nor would I want that but  they will act upon a threat to me or my property.

I dont neuter or spay willy nilly(excuse the pun) but after careful consideration and in the dogs best interest.

I will put up some pics of my dogs and would welcome your comments as to Diesels well muscled strong rear end.


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## CorvusCorax (29 April 2012)

I have one of each. My older male, apart from not being breeding quality, is a bit of a train wreck in terms of his internal waterworks conformation (urethra, bladder neck etc)...he was also not good with other dogs.
Since neutering the constant UTIs he was suffering have all but disappeared and he is much calmer, although not perfect, with other dogs. He is lean as anything, well muscled behind, his lower jaw was not very strong to begin with but I like to think he looks like a male! 
He would absolutely still have a propensity to be sharp and to defend himself from perceived threat.

I hate to say it but agree with Alec, with my young dog, I want him to have a bit of spunk, pardon the pun...there are very few if any dogs working in my sport who are neutered and I do not want to experiment, very few females who always seem to come into season during competition season    so need the jab or to be run last....if I was not working him in this sport I probably would neuter him as again he is not really breeding quality and he can be a real pain in the arse in terms of marking everything and being a bolshy little sod, but he is not really interested in females and he humped something once (a cushion when he was about five months old) I went after him and he has never attempted to climb on anyone or anything else since


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## devonlass (29 April 2012)

First off thank you for the replies,have read all with interest

I know it's a bit of a hot topic and people have strong feelings on it,but I am genuinely interested as to why people feel as strongly as they do,and hoping to be enlightened without causing a row!!



Dobiegirl said:



			As an aside it always surprises me that people who are against neutering often own geldings or neutered cats, just something to consider and very often its the oh who really dosnt like it because its a man thing.

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Funny as I have considered this myself,but it is quite different I think.
Cats are free spirits and wander at will.In my mind it was a responsibility issue.I had my cat neutered as I could not control where he went and did not want to add to the excess of unwanted cats.
As for horses well personally I have never had a colt,any geldings I have had have already been done so to speak so not my choice.
I think I may well get a colt gelded though as half a ton of animal *if* you did have problems behaviour wise is dangerous rather than inconvenient.
Then there is the problem of keeping a horse that is entire,*most* livery yards will not entertain a stallion and if they do they have to be kept in a lot of the time and turned out alone,that to me then becomes a quality of life issue which is a much bigger issue.
Also leaving a horse entire does stunt growth and as generally people want as much height as poss for riding purposes (obviously not always but more often than not) with horses that would be another factor.

So all in all I do think horses and cats are VERY different to dogs and after consideration cannot really be compared with dogs in terms of castration.



Wiz201 said:



			I've spayed my golden retriever and continued to show her afterwards. This is her now at 10 years old still looking beautiful and her coat is lovely and smooth.
		
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She is lovely

Have to say I do consider it different with a female.
The inconvenience of not being able to let her off lead when in season,or having various male interest when did take her out along with the possibility of having an unwanted litter of puppies would be for me a good enough reason to have her spayed.
Males and neutering seems to be far more to do with behaviour and just that it's something people do,hence my interest in the why's.

The coat thing does seem to be restricted to Irish Setters BTW (well not certain of that but only ones have heard of with it),it goes what is termed as 'wooly' or a 'straw coat',have heard it can affect as much as up to 50% of setters that get neutered.Was enough to put me off TBH.



Alec Swan said:



			Devonlass,

over many years,  I've had a great many dogs,  of both sexes.  I have admittedly sold many on,  when training for a living,  but knew of the outcome of most of them.  Others will contradict me,  but I have never had a dog with health issues because it was left entire.

There is a very strong group on here who will castrate males because it suits them to do so,  and I do feel that there are those who treat it as a convenience.  I'm not amongst them and would always council against it.

There you go,  it's your dog and your choice!!

Alec.
		
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Thank you very much for that,was very reassuring in the respect of health issues and interesting in all other respects.

I do think from people I know IRL that many people do it as a matter of course,not sure if it's conveneience or because they get bullied by their vets,but certainly there are many more than neuter than don't.
My vets have been asking me since he was 6 months old,found their response when I said I wasn't doing it for the time being a bit stroppy TBH,wonder how many others get the same and feel pressured into it?? 

Also think there are those who have behaviour problems and think neutering will be a 'quick fix',guess that would come under the convenience heading.Shame people don't at least try training first,and then maybe if that doesn't work go down the castration route,that's my plan if I get behaviour probs.
Not anyone here BTW,don't know enough about anyone to make those assumptions,was refering again to few people I know IRL.



Wiz201 said:



			Why don't you want him done if you don't want to breed with him?
		
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I will confess this is one of the things that does incite my irritation,although not on this thread as am keeping it friendly of course!!

I'm not sure that not wanting to breed in itself is a good enough reason to put a dog through surgery and remove some of it's body parts??
As already mentioned unlike some other animal that we do tend to get done (cats because they roam,horses because of the problems of keeping them entire and extra risks etc) dogs are easier to keep under control and therefore easier to keep intact.Benefits outweighing the risks and all that.
Many people don't want children but they don't all get themselves sterilised or snipped lol


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## Spudlet (29 April 2012)

Another thing to chuck into the mix - a dog with its bits is more nickable than one without. If you have a popular breed it is a factor to take into account.


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## CorvusCorax (29 April 2012)

Oh and neutering had no effect on my big dog's coat. Having said that he is sable and they have shite coats anyway


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## vieshot (29 April 2012)

Is it fair though? To expect a male to live his whole life intact yet not ever allow him to perform? Surely a straying male searching for a mate is straying because his needs are not met at home? Im not really sure though, I like my bitch


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## Wiz201 (29 April 2012)

A human male wouldn't go running across the road after a woman though. Dogs don't rationalise when it comes to searching for a mate. I've heard of entire dogs being knocked down by cars because they went out roaming. The operation to remove dog's parts is not a major op and I'd rather pay for that rather than injuries from being knocked down. I've heard of some men actually going through the process of 'sterilising' themselves so they do not have children with their partners anymore.


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## Cedars (29 April 2012)

Bracken is a year old (today!) and still has his knackers. We have no intention of taking them off any time in the near future - firstly because he wouldn't know what a girl was if it smacked him in the face! Secondly because he's VERY submissive and we wouldn't want him to be worse! And also because we MIGHT potentially breed from him (or, more likely, his breeder will borrow him to breed from) so obviously he might need them! 

However, we would always have a bitch spayed, without discussion. xx


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## Aru (29 April 2012)

Male dogs are often neutered in order to decrease undesirable traits like humping and straying.
There are some health benefits later in life in terms of testosterone responsive tumors but there are also some drawbacks....neutering has had some links to osteosarcomas in breeds such as the rottweiler and neutering a dog early in life can lead to a leggier taller frame.
IMO as long as there is a responsible owner and a lack of issues then I wouldn't be to quick to neuter a young male dog. The time I recommend going for would be 18 months to 2 years once the growth plates have closed.

Female dogs however I would have no hesitations in recommending earlier neutering.The benifit IMO outweigh the risks which include pyometra and mammary tumours when entire.
In the breeds at risk of urinary incontinence is a genetic issue such as golden retrievers I would recommend waiting until after the first heat so that the bladder is less likely to have issues later in life as the receptors would have being activated. However in many other breeds I would recommend before the first heat as it lowers the risk of mammary tumors significantly.The earlier a bitch is neutered the less chance of mammary tumours...


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## Wiz201 (29 April 2012)

Yeah, both my goldens had first seasons before spaying.


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## CAYLA (29 April 2012)

If someone asks me for advice re neutering then I do give my reasons for my belief that neutering is better and has more benefits imo then not, I also feel rather passion ate about neutering because indeed I work with rescue dogs and see so much indescriminate breeding, but I am not an indescriminate breeder and I am more than capable of keeping an entire bitch and dog in my home (which happens frequently without them getting together, which others don't seem to be able to do it seems so my dogs are all neutered (would I do this if I belived it was not best) NO! I certainly would not and do I see hundreds as opposed to just a few or indeed just the pets I have owned over the years (yes! ) and this is why I feel I have a vast experience to make a decision re my own dogs/ I will certainly see more than the average pet owner (is that the best way to say it) not quite sure but there you go, I work for a huge vet, I deal with rescue, I own probably more that the average in pet dogs, I groom and I deal with behavioural problems, so I have a huge comparison (thats maybe the word i was looking for)
For some it may indeed be more convenient to neuter a dog that deal with the problems that may arise that are more commonly associated with entire hormone charged dogs (who is anyone to judge) it is their dog and they may feel from experience they would rather neuter this dog due to the experience they had with the last entire dog! I can also say though in experience neutering does calm alot of behaviours people are experiencing with their dog both alonside training or indeed with just castration and little to no extra training (I have examples/comparisons of them all and find it very interesting. It does however make me have little moments when someone is clearly incapable of handling an entire dog where castration can only help yet they proceed to moan and whinge and keep the dog entire I deal with there types alot too.

Vets don't always advise for the money but sure some may (I work with 9 vets, I know alot more and each and everyone has neutered males and females, do you honeslty think they would neuter theirs if they did  not think it best?
I always advise to be sensible about the age your neuter in regard to the size of the breed and it certainly has to be taken into consideration.
I do belive bone cancers can be related to neutering young but then i see plenty of entire dogs with bones cancers and certainly rotts because its common in this breed. We had a year old entire bull dog at work last week with bone tumours I also on the other hand believe encouraging rapid growth through puppy foods is also related to bone problems/hip problems/cancers too in the larger breeds.
I can understand why working dogs maybe kept entire for breeding/working purpose, but again alot of these dogs are kept kenneled and are kept under a firmer/more experienced hand in general so you may not see the same "behavoural issues"
The hair in some breeds does indeed change and become thicker and rapid growing. In these cases if people want to show I do advise and it's then up to them to make there own mind up.
I have never seen this males looking less masquline unless as DG said it's a breed thing.
I have never experienced bone cancers/prostate in neutered dogs I have in entire (very commonly) and to the untrained eye you may never know or have know your dogs had any of them, I have advised many an owner about their dogs having the above via me grooming and boarding them so another for me to make people aware. I don't want to risk it and as a result my dogs (many of them) have lived long cancer free lives.
To me neutering is best and the link I posted a few days ago explains my feelings
It's  personal choice I guess and you have to do what you feel is best but aswell as some may seem to come over as forceful/aggressive and indeed there is little need for it but I also feel those who disagree with neutering can be the same and some of the advice they give to other just seems a bit " out of the air" or maybe copied from what someone else mentioned in passing and well very odd at times and somewhat unhelpful if the advice in regard to neutering was asked for a specific reason, but I guess you get that re everything folk are passionate re their choices and sometimes clearly not


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## stencilface (29 April 2012)

We've always neutered ours, but then we've always had mongrels (sorry labracollies  ) 

One wasn't as we had him from a puppy, but he was a bugger for straying (terrier x collie?) and then one day made sweet puppy love with a local lhasa apso x shih tzu, they had some odd little puppies 

After that (much to my dad's dismay at being the only other entire male in the house  ) he was snipped.  It did reduce the straying, but he's always been independent, and like scavenging the dirty little dog


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## Cinnamontoast (29 April 2012)

Youngsters aren't done because they haven't shown any interest in females (although Bear discovered girls at training the other week but ignores girls when out.) I have absolutely no intention of breeding, but the studies I've read indicate that neutering is actually less beneficial longterm. 

Big dog has never shown any interest in girls and he's 9 next month. He's not dominant, he's never scent marked in the house, he's an angel, frankly. It's rubbish to say this all entire male dogs are frustrated and run after in season girls: they don't. 

If the youngsters suddenly evinced an interest in girls, I might, just might consider it.

It is a totally unequal debate to bring up cats and horses as a good reason to neuter: you can't keep your cat in the garden and you don't want up to 700kg or more of horse crashing round to get to an in season mare. I'm amazed that no-one has come up with a contraceptive pill that supresses the symptoms of a season for horses yet.


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## Alec Swan (29 April 2012)

cinnamontoast said:



			....... I'm amazed that no-one has come up with a contraceptive pill that supresses the symptoms of a season for horses yet.
		
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Regumate.

Alec.


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## joeanne (29 April 2012)

vieshot said:



			Is it fair though? To expect a male to live his whole life intact yet not ever allow him to perform?
		
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My neutered idiot "serviced" and locked with a bitch recently....
He is neutered because he is a retard (in the nicest possible way) and not an example you would ever wish to breed from, and thats before you take into account his health issues!
My Older bitch is also neutered, as having struggled to give birth and needing a c-section, it was a risk we were not prepared to take again.
The others are not, and have no need to be, but would be if it were needed.


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## devonlass (29 April 2012)

Thanks again to everyone for the replies,has made very interesting reading!!



CaveCanem said:



			, but he is not really interested in females and he humped something once (a cushion when he was about five months old)
		
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Not really sure why but that just made me lol



Spudlet said:



			Another thing to chuck into the mix - a dog with its bits is more nickable than one without. If you have a popular breed it is a factor to take into account.
		
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TBH that wouldn't really occur to me as not sure who would have an opportunity to nick my dog,he's not accessible when in the garden,and when out is with me at all times even when off lead is always in sight or in my own field with the horses which is secure.
Guess for some people in some areas this might be a concern though.Guess even I can't say for sure it wouldn't happen to me thinking about it,but not reaon enough to neuter IMO.

Plus have to ask how would people know it had all it's bits?? Obvious with certain breeds I guess (the more manly variety so to speak lol) but with many hairy types would have to a very observant thief lol



vieshot said:



			Is it fair though? To expect a male to live his whole life intact yet not ever allow him to perform? Surely a straying male searching for a mate is straying because his needs are not met at home? Im not really sure though, I like my bitch 

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I'm not certain but I thought I heard/read that they don't really think like that.Not sure about the straying,guess it might be only when they sense a female in heat,but I know with mine it was just whenever the door was left open and he sought out people rather than dogs,silly muppet,but then he was an Irish Setter lol



Wiz201 said:



			The operation to remove dog's parts is not a major op and I'd rather pay for that rather than injuries from being knocked down. I've heard of some men actually going through the process of 'sterilising' themselves so they do not have children with their partners anymore.
		
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I'm not sure what the statistics are for entire dogs being knocked down,but I'm pretty sure it's not an every day occurance,and surely that's just chance or bad luck?? I can think of good reasons to neuter but have to say the small chance of them being knocked over whilst out looking for female company wouldn't be one of them,IMO anyway.

I'm not even going to ask about the men sterilising themselves lol,perhaps a whole new thread for soapbox??



Cedars said:



			he's VERY submissive and we wouldn't want him to be worse! 

However, we would always have a bitch spayed, without discussion. xx
		
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I hadn't actually thought of it as a reason to neuter or not,but my dog is very submissive (not surprising as he's a setter,and one of the reasons I like them is their totally non agressive nature),can't imagine how he be much more submissive,but something else to consider.

Exactly the same opinion on spaying a female,would do it without question.



CAYLA said:



			, I also feel rather passion ate about neutering because indeed I work with rescue dogs and see so much indescriminate breeding,
The hair in some breeds does indeed change and become thicker and rapid growing. In these cases if people want to show I do advise and it's then up to them to make there own mind up.
		
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Just to be clear on the breeding thing,I completely agree with you regarding that issue,and would not even contemplate keeping any animal entire if I were not sure I could be responsible for it and control it's actions.I would not want to add in any way to the already huge problem of unwanted dogs.

Do you mind if I ask you a bit more about the coat thing?? I have not really heard of it in other types so would be interested in any examples you have seen.It is apparently quite common in setters,not sure of you have heard or seen it before?? The coat goes very dry and brittle and takes on a yellow appearance (hence the straw reference),mainly along the back although could have remembered that bit wrong.
I am guessing it's a hormone thing??


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## CAYLA (30 April 2012)

With theiving, the opportunists steal the dog then do the math later, if it has no entact gear you are likely to see the dog again otherwise it will more than likely to be living on a puppy farm or sold to order if not neutered then the possibilities are far slimmer, and this is very common believe it or not.
Even to the point a fair few entire dogs and in whelp bitches being stolen from houses, no doubt the owner has made it clear they are breeding and have been watched and sussed.
But of course it's not a main reason to neuter but people should be aware all the same, the HEALTH benefits and no other is why I personally neuter and again I have enough comparisons now to made a clear choice.
Again with the straying it really does depend and some are like houdinie in getting out and getting to a bitch, could depend on the doggy population near by, if the dog has been used for alot of matings or if the dog has had access to the outdoors once got a taste for "punanni" and will reoffend.

A dog being submissive would not be further altered by neutering thats definately a "out of the air thing".

In regard to coat types, you definately see it more in certain coat types, but mind you not all, but I notice it more in indeed maybe setter, cavaliers, retrievers (although not in the case of the example used in this post) which is a good example of (not always) erm, spaniels. More wolly coat types, and also maybe terriers coats going a good bit softer making stripping a little harder, I still strip them. Other grooms will no doubt add some. But certainly it would be due lack of hormone production.
Alot of the (fors) certainly can be managed in capable hands not all are capable but the health benefits to be as I said are the most important, I aint going to neuter my if I don't think it's what is best.

I applaud you for thinking about the "not breeding" but not all people can help it "they see sexual organs and need to see them in use" and majority is neither necessary or responsible.


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## Blanche (30 April 2012)

At one time ( many , many moons ago) I never neutered my dogs as my family never did . My grandparents use to breed Welsh Springers ( The best Springer!!)and so not neutered and our family dogs were entire and I have to say it just didn't cross my mind . About twentyish years ago we lived on a farm that had a bridleway running along the top of the woods . People coming to the farm for whatever reason were allowed to bring their dogs and have them loose but if they were an in season bitch were asked to keep them at home .We had so many dogs come along the bridleway to find the bitch and I lost track of the ammount of dogs I had to take home so thats why we did that . Anyhoo the  tree surgeon came with his bitch in season and one of my boys tied and I had to pay to end the pregnancy , this then happened with my other boy . I was not best pleased but my boys were on home ground and not roaming as someone insinuated on another thread . Thereafter they got frantic when there was a bitch in season nearby and so I had them done and peace was restored ! Since then I have always had my dogs done and have never had any effeminate looking boys . I do however know a entire boy who could mince for Britain and he's from a butch breed .


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## CorvusCorax (30 April 2012)

Just a general observation, but why would one want to breed from a very submissive dog? Especially combined with certain other traits from the other partner in the mating.
Surely a strong/confident character is one of the most important things to think about in a breeding. JMO though.


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## PolarSkye (30 April 2012)

I'm afraid I'm another one in the "best to neuter" camp . . . but that may be a function of having two rescue dogs.

1)  Coat changes - both of my dogs (both collie crosses, one male and one female) have beautiful, lustrous shiny coats - people actually comment on them, especially Fred . . . I didn't notice a coat change in either dog when they were neutered/spayed

2)  Male dogs "performing" - Fred definitely knows what girls are "for" and we waited for Daisy to have a couple of seasons before we had her spayed (on the advice of our vet) . . . Fred and Daisy got "tied" several times (much to Daisy's confusion/consternation)

3)  Feminizing male dogs - taking Fred as an example, I haven't found that neutering him has made him more girly . . . he is robust, well-muscled and definitely not backward about coming forward when it comes to protecting the family . . . I pity the burglar who tries to break in to our house . . . although he's very pretty (always has been, neutered or not) he is most definitely all boy

I think the overriding question, though, is if you're not going to breed from a dog (or indeed you shouldn't because of character or conformation flaws) then why would you want to keep him or her entire?  And can you absolutely, categorically guarantee that said dog won't ever escape and do the deed?  It doesn't take long . . . and the resulting litter need new homes and may, or may not, be suitable pets.

I would never, ever in a million years have considered breeding from Fred . . . although he's a much-loved family pet, he has a weak character . . . he's neurotic, sensitive and territorial . . . we manage his behaviour but I wouldn't want that temperament passed on and I can't 100% guarantee that he wouldn't take an opportunity.  Although Daisy is a different kettle of fish altogether . . . easy-going, laid-back, friendly, sociable, amenable and bold/brave . . . and although I think she is the most beautiful, gorgeous, adorable dog on the planet, I still wouldn't want puppies from her . . . I have no idea what's in her genes and as she was turned into the pound in Ireland at 6 weeks old she's a walking advertisement for accidental matings resulting in unwanted pups.  I consider myself (and her) very lucky that she wasn't destined for a weighted sack and a river. 

P 

P


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## EAST KENT (30 April 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			Devonlass,

over many years,  I've had a great many dogs,  of both sexes.  I have admittedly sold many on,  when training for a living,  but knew of the outcome of most of them.  Others will contradict me,  but I have never had a dog with health issues because it was left entire.

If I want a dog for a specific purpose,  and with Man Work,  for instance,  it was always dogs and never bitches,  then it's my feeling that specifically with males,  castration de-masculinates them,  and I also find that though not all,  many take on a more effeminate expression,  a more effeminate outlook,  and what appears to be a weakened back end.

There is a very strong group on here who will castrate males because it suits them to do so,  and I do feel that there are those who treat it as a convenience.  I'm not amongst them and would always council against it.

There you go,  it's your dog and your choice!!

Alec.
		
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Quite agree,in fact latest evidence shows a higher risk of cancer in castrated dogs.


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## devonlass (30 April 2012)

Mnay thanks again for all the replies folks,has made very interesting reading and given lot's of food for thought.



CAYLA said:



			if the dog has been used for alot of matings or if the dog has had access to the outdoors once got a taste for "punanni" and will reoffend.

A dog being submissive would not be further altered by neutering thats definately a "out of the air thing".

In regard to coat types, you definately see it more in certain coat types, but mind you not all, but I notice it more in indeed maybe setter, cavaliers, retrievers (although not in the case of the example used in this post) which is a good example of (not always) erm, spaniels. More wolly coat types, and also maybe terriers coats going a good bit softer making stripping a little harder, I still strip them. Other grooms will no doubt add some. But certainly it would be due lack of hormone production.

I applaud you for thinking about the "not breeding" but not all people can help it "they see sexual organs and need to see them in use" and majority is neither necessary or responsible.
		
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I only included that first line in the quote because it made me PMSL

Great about the submissive thing,will remove that reason from the list.

Thank you so much for the info on the coats,although in a way not what I wanted to hear,but good to have some reliable first hand experience of it.I know it sounds really shallow of me but the coat thing is almost a reson in itself for me not to neuter,setters are a lot about the looks let's be honest and the coat is a big part of it.I wouldn't not neuter if there were other good reasons to do it just because of coat,but I will confess it is up there near the top of the list for not having him chopped at present.
I don't suppose there are any remedies or products vets would be willing to administer that would help with coat issues if it was an issue post neutering?? HRT maybe??

I have absolutely no intention now or ever to breed from him.I'm sure he would make a lovely stud dog,(is a pretty good example of a setter from a good breeder),BUT it's not something I have any interest in,and the behaviour issues I can imagine I *might* get after allowing him to 'do the deed' would be enough to put me off TBH.He's a family pet,that *maybe* I would like to do a few shows with and get the kids interested etc,but that's af far as my ambitions go with him.Besides if you met him you would realise that one Alfie is quite enough on the planet,a whole litter would be unthinkable lol

I kind of know what you mean though about the type of person that thinks that way.I was watching some dog programme the other day (me or the dog or something??) and was a bloke on there with an entire husky (he was a nightmare behaviour wise and a perfect candidate for neutering IMO) and he said he hadn't had him done because he 'thought it would be nice to let him stud just the once so he knew what it was all about',I thought that sounded bonkers TBH,and was sat there shouting at the tv




CaveCanem said:



			Just a general observation, but why would one want to breed from a very submissive dog? Especially combined with certain other traits from the other partner in the mating.
Surely a strong/confident character is one of the most important things to think about in a breeding. JMO though.
		
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Obviously I'm not breeding from mine but when I said he was submissive I only meant in the way that he should be for his type as in totally non agressive no matter what.He has a very confident and strong character (he has character by the bucket load,too much at times),and even pretends to be brave at times lol,but in any sort of serious confrontation he will roll over so to speak (well and literally when 28kg of staffie jumped on him the other week,poor boy) and submit,can't imagine he would ever fight back or be a threat is what I meant by submissive.
That's what I love about them as well(and why I put up with them lol),can trust them 100% (and there aren't many types of dog I would say that about TBH),with kids,other animals etc,most your average setter would do would be bounce or befriend someone to death I should imagine lol


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## CAYLA (30 April 2012)

Just to add, I cannot quote for some reason nor can I remeber who posted what, the point about the "convenience" neutering, I would add that the majority of people I see with un neutered dogs for comparison more commonly are those who cannot afford to neuter, those who see it as unneccessary cost, or squeamish men, or woman who's men are squeamish and they are a little to backward in coming forward to voice an opinion against the man even though they want the dog neutered, or both are squeamish or those who belive it will change the dogs personality or those just not educated about the pros/cons as it never cropped up. Very few had actually researched it either way.
Obs there is also the breeders and the working dogs, I can obs see why those are entire
Anyhows like I say I need to see the evidence my self of higher cancer rates in neutered dogs at present im seeing it alarmingly more so in entires, even speaking to the mothership about it (we where debating about something else) and we got onto cancers, she manages 7 practices and commented about how in a long time they are seeing more cancers and confirmed it was majority entires but I did also step in with my (I bet they are fed on rubbish food) foods aswell but others in practice may see the opposite?
I don't think being worried about the dogs coat makes you shallow either OP, because otherwise you seem to have a very sensible attitude and a well behaved dog who is not going to be breeding for the sake of emptying his sacks cos he has them and you have reasoned and come to your conclusion and thats what everyone should/has the right to do


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## Dizzle (30 April 2012)

Very interesting! I've had a few people jump on me when I said I was going to have Roo castrated when he's older, I'd never heard opposition to it before!

CAYLA, what effect does it have on a Border Terrier coat? He's still in puppy coat at the moment and it's hard to imagine it getting wiry let alone going soft again. We've not had him stripped yet but OH is keen to keep his hair short and I have images of me mauling the dog with clippers!!

My reasons for castrating? We live next to a park, a very busy route for dog walkers and I don't think it fair Roo should have to watch all the lovely ladies walk past all day and not be able to get to them.

I also want to remove the temptation for ME to breed from him. He's very pretty, a lovely nature but he's not registered!


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## CAYLA (30 April 2012)

In general (not all) some go a little softer and tend to grow quicker. But to be fair your groom should still beable to strip still, if you want a strip? some people chose clip in which case it makes no difference cos it's all coming off anyways, I do both, I rehomed 2 puppy borders last year and they still get stripped and are both suprisingly short, the one I groomed the other day was still entire (not neutered) and her coat was horrendous, I posted a picture and another border we have in she was neutered 2 days after I stripped her and her coat was also wild, sometimes the coat will depend upon what they are bred from and how wild their coats where neutered or not.
I have a terrier type and he is neutered and his coat is short and neat, no extra growth and still very wirey. If you want to keep him short and smart it would not  imo hinder to much to castrate, esp given you main reasons for doing so.


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## CAYLA (30 April 2012)

I am not into jumping on folk who have entires, I can see why some people have them entire, and if they are sensible and have no issues like the OP and they have weighed up the pros/cons then good on them, but to jump on you for having him done, same as LML's OH on his forum, well I find it odd I would ask "why"? and if the answer is "you could breed" that will tell you ALOT, if they begin to educate you on their reasons then fair do's.


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## MurphysMinder (30 April 2012)

I have had neutered and entire males, the entire ones were used at stud so didn't need to go looking for ladies 
Pickle was neutered at just over 6 months, he was very precocious at that age, cocking his leg and humping everything.  It was always daughters intention to have him done as he was going to be with her at work and an entire dog would not have been practical.  His character hasn't changed at all, the only thing I would say is that he is a bit more on the leg than some heelers, although his sire was too so it could be he would have turned out like that anyway.  As long as the owner is responsible and their circumstances suit I think it is up to them if they keep a male entire, but I would always recommend having a bitch spayed.


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## Luci07 (30 April 2012)

Interesting reading. My ex BIL (he was a sweetie actually!) didn't want to castrate their dog, who was a stunning reg KC Stafford. Now Alfie was very well behaved, courtesey of a lot of puppy training and very heavy socialisastion. The one thing that was going to persuade my BIL to do it was he was never going to breed but was massively worried about Alfie being stolen. Sadly Alfie turned out to have a weak heart and we lost him whe he was only 4 so never done due to the stress it could cause.

I had my Stafford bitches done as early as I could.


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## ChesnutsRoasting (30 April 2012)

All those with entire dogs, don't they become unmanageable hooligans? Desperate to escape, not eating, whinging, scaling six feet walls, barging doors down to get at a bitch in season? I only ask, because the last time I posted about walking my in season bitch in public, I was shot down by some of those with entire males. How dare I, how irresponsible etc etc............ My BT is castrated, he hasn't lost his masculinity, still a game little dog.


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## g16 (30 April 2012)

my parents had a retriever who would climb out an  8ft gate, followed by jumping a 5ft gate with one of those boundary collars to get to his lady friend - not just when she was in season either! unfortunately once when he escaped he picked up a poisoned crow and by the time we realised it was too late. We've always had females since but if I had a male it would most likely be done


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## devonlass (30 April 2012)

blazingsaddles said:



			All those with entire dogs, don't they become unmanageable hooligans? Desperate to escape, not eating, whinging, scaling six feet walls, barging doors down to get at a bitch in season? I only ask, because the last time I posted about walking my in season bitch in public, I was shot down by some of those with entire males. How dare I, how irresponsible etc etc............ My BT is castrated, he hasn't lost his masculinity, still a game little dog.
		
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I wouldn't walk an in season bitch around other dogs,and most people I know don't either.
Not worth the risk IMO,and also must be very annoying for the bitch having various dogs showing 'interst' in her,and that isn't even exclusive to entire dogs either IME.

I'm not just saying that because I have an entire male BTW,although I appreciate it must seem that way.Just the consequences of a unwanted 'meeting' as the owner of a bitch could be considerable,and not worth the risk IMO.


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## burtie (1 May 2012)

devonlass said:



			I wouldn't walk an in season bitch around other dogs,and most people I know don't either.
Not worth the risk IMO,and also must be very annoying for the bitch having various dogs showing 'interst' in her,and that isn't even exclusive to entire dogs either IME.

I'm not just saying that because I have an entire male BTW,although I appreciate it must seem that way.Just the consequences of a unwanted 'meeting' as the owner of a bitch could be considerable,and not worth the risk IMO.
		
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My vet initially advised against castration due to weight gain, (he's a lab!) When I said I walk him loose on the New Forest a lot and take him out with the horse too and was concerned about in-season bitches being walked, he advised this was unlikely as most owner wouldn't walk then out. 
Well in fact we meet a least one in season bitch on most times out, so that was clearly not the case.


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## Wiz201 (1 May 2012)

I've managed to control the weight in my spayed golden retrievers, that's not really an excuse not to neuter.


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## TelH (1 May 2012)

All 3 of my dogs are neutered, shoot me down if you wish but the 2 girls were both spayed before their first season  Neither have suffered any ill effects of that, the Springer is still young, 2yo, but the jrt will be 13 next month and touch wood is still perfectly healthy  I just think unless they're top quality breeding stock they don't need their bits so get rid of them.


A number of years ago I took on an ex puppy farm Westie. She was about 6/7yo and not spayed, I was told she was last in season a month before I got her so the vet said to wait another 2 months then she could be spayed. In that 2 months she had a pyo and had to have an emergency spay. I would never want to risk a dog going through that again


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## burtie (1 May 2012)

Wiz201 said:



			I've managed to control the weight in my spayed golden retrievers, that's not really an excuse not to neuter.
		
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I agree, I ignored his advice and had him spayed anyway, he has since got much fitter and leaner as he now runs out with horse at least twice a week covering 6-8 miles, plus has long walks in the forest on other days! He was a bit of a nightmare for humping before and this has completely gone so I can trust him totally around other dogs, which means more off lead walking!


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## ChesnutsRoasting (1 May 2012)

burtie said:



			My vet initially advised against castration due to weight gain, (he's a lab!) When I said I walk him loose on the New Forest a lot and take him out with the horse too and was concerned about in-season bitches being walked, he advised this was unlikely as most owner wouldn't walk then out. 
Well in fact we meet a least one in season bitch on most times out, so that was clearly not the case.
		
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I would like to add that she is walked ON LEAD, UNDER CONTROL. If an entire male approaches my on lead, in season bitch who's irresponsible? The owner who allows their entire dog off lead or the owner who walks their in season bitch on lead?


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## The Original Kao (1 May 2012)

blazingsaddles said:



			I would like to add that she is walked ON LEAD, UNDER CONTROL. If an entire male approaches my on lead, in season bitch who's irresponsible? The owner who allows their entire dog off lead or the owner who walks their in season bitch on lead?
		
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I would have to say the person with the in season bitch would be at fault unless you had someone walking in front of you ringing a bell shouting 'unclean, unclean'  then how is the entire male's owner going to know that the bitch is in season? 
Although if you follow good etiquette then really if you see a dog on lead and yours is off lead you should really put your dog on a lead also, unless said dog is well trained enough to stay away


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## ChesnutsRoasting (1 May 2012)

The Original Kao said:



			I would have to say the person with the in season bitch would be at fault unless you had someone walking in front of you ringing a bell shouting 'unclean, unclean'  then how is the entire male's owner going to know that the bitch is in season? 
Although if you follow good etiquette then really if you see a dog on lead and yours is off lead you should really put your dog on a lead also, unless said dog is well trained enough to stay away 

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Nail.On.Head.


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## CAYLA (1 May 2012)

blazingsaddles said:



			I would like to add that she is walked ON LEAD, UNDER CONTROL. If an entire male approaches my on lead, in season bitch who's irresponsible? The owner who allows their entire dog off lead or the owner who walks their in season bitch on lead?
		
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The approaching dogs as it is out of conrol/has no recall/out of sight from owner, dog would get a boot and owner would get a gobfull


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## PolarSkye (1 May 2012)

The Original Kao said:



			I would have to say the person with the in season bitch would be at fault unless you had someone walking in front of you ringing a bell shouting 'unclean, unclean'  then how is the entire male's owner going to know that the bitch is in season? 
Although if you follow good etiquette then really if you see a dog on lead and yours is off lead you should really put your dog on a lead also, unless said dog is well trained enough to stay away 

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This.  Before we had Dinks spayed, when she was in season we kept her in the house and she only went in the garden (a secure garden) under supervision.  No walks.  At all.  Cruel?  Possibly . . . but better than an unintentional mating and an unwanted/unplanned litter.

P


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## amandat (2 May 2012)

Dobiegirl said:



			Wiz201 your girl is a beauty and looks amazing for 10years of age.

Amandat I just hope your dog does not go off a wandering after the girls he is also a prime candidate to be stolen.

Many years ago m- and f-i-l had an un-neutered collie for the cattle and that dog used to break out and service the local doggy girls who were in an interesting condition on a regular basis. That dog was a proper houdini and in the end both in laws had him neutered, it took a while for it to kick in but it stoppped his wander lust.
		
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Haha re the houdini comment ... Reg found all the weak spots in the garden fence & got out a couple of times but he's such a baby & i'm so lucky he just ran round & waited at my back gate   the garden is now secure, he doesn't take to strangers kindly & i'm very aware of those that would like to steal him.    He's a very gorgeous boy !!!!


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## amandat (2 May 2012)

Wiz201 said:



			Why don't you want him done if you don't want to breed with him?
		
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I s'pose it's just something i'd rather not do just for the sake of it !!!!

I've had him since he was 5.5 wks (too young but he wasn't being looked after properly & i had the choice of taking him or he would be dumped).  For the first 8-10mths he was a total nightmare, everyone was telling me that the only way to calm him down was to get him done,    I love him dearly for his character & just for being him, i don't want to loose any of who he is.  I've learnt to get the right voice tone & he is very obedient as long as i stay calm


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## Dobiegirl (2 May 2012)

AmandaT neutering your dog will not change his personality so the only part he would lose would be his goolies.

All my Dobes were neutered when they were mature and I can honestly say it didnt change them apart from humping,leg cocking and showing an interest in the ladies.

I think where the change may occur  is if they are neutered early and they are not physically and mentaly  mature.


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## Jake10 (2 May 2012)

I wasn't going to neuter Jake but we had an entire bitch (now spayed) with a fairly good pedigree that the parents were umming and arring about breeding. So he was neutered to prevent unwanted crossbreed puppies. Personally I think that a wire fox terrier x border collie x springer spaniel would have been extremely loopy in temperament and would look funny.


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## twiglet84 (3 May 2012)

I think the pro's outweigh con's IMO, but if your worried it will have negative results of personality etc then you could try chemical castration. There is an implant called suprelorin which last 6 months and will have the effects of a surgical castration. Could try that first then decide if you are happy with the results before proceeding to surgery. 

xxxxx (havent read whole thread so hope not repeated anyone) xx


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## ChesnutsRoasting (3 May 2012)

PolarSkye said:



			This.  Before we had Dinks spayed, when she was in season we kept her in the house and she only went in the garden (a secure garden) under supervision.  No walks.  At all.  Cruel?  Possibly . . . but better than an unintentional mating and an unwanted/unplanned litter.

P
		
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Yes, cruel, sadly. An unintentional mating would only occur if an owners entire dog was not under proper control and an inseason bitch was not under proper control or both owners were idiots.


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