# ADVICE ON REFINING THOROUGHBRED FOR IRISH DRAUGHT MARE



## Jabba (23 October 2012)

I have a lovely old type Irish Draught mare. She is by The Conqueror (by Flagmount Boy) out of Atlantic Pride (by Knocknagow). She is a 16.2 old fashioned, heavy built mare. We have in the past bred her with Crosstown Dancer and Come T. She produces lighter, athletic stock with excellent movement and jumping ability. Her stock, so far have been produced for eventing and are coming on great. It is due to her quality of stock that we feel she will produce super half bred stock. 

She needs a stallion that will refine her, add blood, will pass on good temperament, movement, jumping ability and scope. At the top of the list is Watermill Swatch we have used him before to do the same job on another mare and are delighted with the result, but I am wondering if there is any other choices out there (in Ireland).

Stallions I like, but dont know if they are up to the job are Albaran, Well Chosen, Diamond Discovery, Frankfort Boy, Lakeshore Road, Painters Row, Sirillio, Financial Reward, Musical Pursuit and Pointilliste.
Does anyone know if any of the above could be what I am looking for? Or have any suggestions of stallions?


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## Maesfen (23 October 2012)

Not being over there so I don't know what's about but have you looked at Loughehoe Guy?

I had a mare by him out of the Premier mare, Skerry Flight and she is a lovely type that has produced a cracking filly for me by an ID stallion that jumps the electric fence for fun with a lot of style.


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## Colivet (23 October 2012)

Maesfen said:



			Not being over there so I don't know what's about but have you looked at Loughehoe Guy?

I had a mare by him out of the Premier mare, Skerry Flight and she is a lovely type that has produced a cracking filly for me by an ID stallion that jumps the electric fence for fun with a lot of style.
		
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He seems to be quite a popular sire among eventers at the moment - friend had a filly by him she sold on recently, lots of talent but also quite "sharp".


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## gadetra (23 October 2012)

I'd second Loughehoe Guy, I have met him in the flesh and he is a lovely type. His stock are doing well in age classes and loose jumping and he is commercial.

Pointiliste is the most impressive TB standing in Ireland at the mo I think. He is a very good looking individual and has lots of bone. He is also a fantastic mover front and behind.  He is on my list for next year. He is, however, unproven (only standing 2/3 years so far I think in Ireland?)  but is approved and really fantastic mover. He is also a chestnut, and whilst I'm not an expert on colour genetics, you wouldn't want to have to be selling a chestnut filly.

Watermill Swatch is the ultimate refiner, as you kno. He is quite commercial and comes from fantastic lines (Mythens). He gets very classy looking foals and is a very refined individual, if even a bit feminine. Just the thing for a butty mare. If he had more bone I would use him myself. ( I haven't a strong enough mare!)


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## Jabba (24 October 2012)

How could I forget about Loughehoe Guy! I have seen a lot of his progeny and liked what I seen, but they have all been out of ISH mares. Does anyone know what he produces when crossed with a heavy draught? Though I want to refine my mare I don't really want to lose height. Saying our mare passes on the hight, so maybe it would be good.


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## Lark (24 October 2012)

Watermill Swatch is light of bone so would actually be quite a good option for refinement.
Pointilliste for me is the nicest TB stallion I have ever seen. Presence, movement, confirmation it is all there.


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## Jabba (24 October 2012)

I really like Pointilliste too, but for this mare I think it would produce a large hunter type instead and I have not seen any young stock of his. Does anyone know what they are like?


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## eventrider23 (24 October 2012)

I love Watermill Swatch...stunning elegant stallion!! Albaran at Kylemore has also got to be one of my absolute favourite TB stallions and one I would love to use at some point. These two stallions would be my out and out favourites.

Well Chosen seems to have a lot of stock coming through the sales now, etc.


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## Simsar (24 October 2012)

Of the list you have given I personally would be looking at Albaran, Sirillio and Diamond Discovery.

Sirillio is supposed to have an amazing jump and I really like his pedigree.

Diamond Discovery has apparently got quite a few good eventers coming up through the ranks atm, I believe he has a few @ 2/3*. and is one I have been keeping an eye on, with the hope that we may be able to get semen over here in England.

Albaran I had spoken to a friend in Germany about him before he was sold to Ire and was told he was throwing good stock and should be a good refining cross for the heavier mare.

I like Watermill swatch but would just worry about getting a top heavy animal with him as he is VERY light...... but if you have used him before you would be in a better position to judge.

The Loughehoe Guy Mare that Measfen is talking about I have on loan from her and would say she is a very similar stamp to her sire, as Maesfen said she used a traditional type draught on her and the resulting foal was a really cracking stamp, so much so that I have decided to use a traditional stamp ID on her this year and am now eagerly awaiting the foal, who if half as athletic and quality as Maesfens filly I will be really pleased.

The other one that I am surprised ER23 hasn't suggested is William Micklems young stallion Jackeroo who is full brother to Mandiba and High Kingdom and is a very high proportion of TB blood.

Hope this helps


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## eventrider23 (24 October 2012)

D'oh!!!! Smack me on head for forgetting Jackaroo!!  But then I was typing on phone and the constant predictive typos were doing my head in!!!  Jackaroo is a definite must look at although I have no idea how refining he will be, the cross in itself should be successful on genetics alone.


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## Bearskin (24 October 2012)

http://www.tarahillstud.com/stallions/augutus.html

Told he is one to watch


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## gadetra (24 October 2012)

Bearskin said:



http://www.tarahillstud.com/stallions/augutus.html

Told he is one to watch
		
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There are quite a few Emperor Agustus foals around, long elegant types. Think he win the Croker cup? There are quite a few of them showing.


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## Jabba (25 October 2012)

Thanks Simsar and Eventrider23 for pointing me in the direction of Jackaroo!! Definitely going into my little black book for one I will use in the future, as I am a big fan of High Kingdom.


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## Jabba (25 October 2012)

I am probably going to get stoned for saying this, but at the moment I am not a fan of Emperor Augustus. I have seen so many in showing classes that I really liked the look of, so went to see one 3 year old and two 4 year olds by him under saddle! They are stunners to look at and had fantastic movement whilst in the field, but under saddle that movement just disappeared! Also one of the 4 year olds struggles to jump higher than 80cm! The pure thing is just not getting whats it supposed to do! Now in their defence a lot and I mean 'A LOT' I seen is to do with bad breaking/producing, but there was somethings missing that I would like and expect to see naturally. He is still on my to use in the future list, but I am willing to wait see more of what he produces.


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## gadetra (25 October 2012)

Jabba said:



			I am probably going to get stoned for saying this, but at the moment I am not a fan of Emperor Augustus. I have seen so many in showing classes that I really liked the look of, so went to see one 3 year old and two 4 year olds by him under saddle! They are stunners to look at and had fantastic movement whilst in the field, but under saddle that movement just disappeared! Also one of the 4 year olds struggles to jump higher than 80cm! The pure thing is just not getting whats it supposed to do! Now in their defence a lot and I mean 'A LOT' I seen is to do with bad breaking/producing, but there was somethings missing that I would like and expect to see naturally. He is still on my to use in the future list, but I am willing to wait see more of what he produces.
		
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That's good to know. Interesting. I heard the same thing about Dock Leaf. They look the part but are totally incompetent at leaving the ground! I wondered why I haven't seen any Emperor Augstus's in the loose jumping, they're old enough. Noted!


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## TJP (25 October 2012)

I have a draught x mare who I am toying with the idea of covering next year. I would have loved to use French Buffet on her but unfortunately he has passed on. I have a lovely 2 year old by him out of a Cloverhill mare. LG is def one I am looking at. EA is one i wouldn't consider. Don't think I would get a horse with a potential competition career. Some of the youngstock I have seen by WS haven't impressed me, saying that I didn't see the dams.   Such a minefield. I have covered a TB (Kings Theatre) mare with Crosstown Dancer this year but have considered Come T for her. How do your 2 compare to each other?  I have heard you get a more intelligent youngster from CD than CT. saying that I have no personal experience of CT babies.


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## Jabba (26 October 2012)

TJP, do you know if Crosstown Dancer is still breeding for the 2013 season? To be honest I thought he was dead! I have another mare (Carrickrock Close Shave X All the Diamonds X Creggan Emperor) I'd love to go to him, if you have the details of where he is standing could you PM me them?

We have had two Crosstown Dancer Geldings, two Come T Geldings and one Come T filly from the mare I spoke about at the start of this thread. Then this year we had another filly by Come T out of the mare I mentioned at the start of this post. I wouldn't say either lacked intelligence, though I would say the Crosstown's were easier to work with and forgiving if the rider made a mistake. The Come T's that we have got out of the mare at the beginning of this thread (no one believes they are full ID). They are light of bone and oddly bloody which we pursue is because Come T has some TB close up. All four Come T's are extremely flashy, have real presence and get loads of attention when they get out of the box at shows. They will put up a little fight now and then, which the Crosstown's never did. Three riders have been on both the two Crosstown's and one of the Come T's at one time or another and all say if you&#8217;re looking for an all-rounder horse that you can throw at anything with little hassle they would go for the Crosstown Dancer geldings. They felt the Come T gelding, though a bit sharp, showed far more potential. The Come T is more athletic, forward going and a far better mover.

Now this was the result from our mare. I feel Crosstown Dancer, put with a more suited mare would produce a far more competitive horse than Come T ever will. For a light to medium mare, with good movement, needing Jumping ability and trainability use Crosstown Dancer all day long. For a heavy mare (with height!), with little movement, a good jump and an excellent temperament go for Come T.

Oh Crosstown Dancer is far easier to sell! We were able to break them and sell them after their third and sixth show (one has become a riding club horse and jumping 1.10m with happy owner and the other is a grass eater over the summer and a super hunter in the winter). The Come T we broke last January as a four year old and we only sold him last month to a eventing producer in England.


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## seabsicuit2 (26 October 2012)

Think that diamond discovery has a proper sport horse pedigree, which many of these other TB's are lacking- some of these lines are never going to jump or event.
He is stunning looking and looks the part!


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## Jabba (26 October 2012)

I seen Diamond Discovery from a distance at Dublin horse show and though he was nice, but can't find any young stock to have a look at.


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## TJP (26 October 2012)

I think he is still standing. We used him AI which I think may be the only way but not 100% sure. I did struggle a bit to find his info but will have a look, I have it somewhere.  Our mare is quite fine.  This years foal is by Templebready Fear Bui and looks like he is going to have a bit more bone than mum.  Good to know about your Come T youngsters as there is something appealing about him.


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## TJP (26 October 2012)

Jabba. I have sent you a PM.


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## Jabba (26 October 2012)

Thanks TJP, I came on were to try and get ideas for stallions for one mare and I get the other mare sorted! Lol


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## Eothain (27 October 2012)

I can speak on Well Chosen, Sirillio, Painter's Row and Musical Pursuit.

We bred a Classic Vision X Duca Di Busted mare to Well Chosen and got a fantastic filly that's now a 2 year old out of her and she's much finer and refined than the mother is and I'm just wishing the next year away so we can get cracking on breaking her. I've seen her run around and pop a few fences on our cross country course and she certainly knows how to make a nice shape!!!
I bred the same mare to Sirillio and got another cracking filly that maybe isn't as blood looking as the Well Chosen and is shorter coupled than her. I've seen some foals that Sirillio refined but mine wasn't one of them.
I'd use both again happily

I've had 4 Musical Pursuits through here. All full siblings. 1 of the 4 was really coarse looking but the other 3 were very good models. He should refine your mare.
Don't p**s them off though!

Painter's Row was one I was going to use this year but he's dead so that sucks!


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## bonmahonsporthorses (8 November 2012)

A new throughbred stallion that was approved by Horse sport Ireland last season is Ansiei, a quality athletic looking throughbred stallion, that won a stakes race and was barely beaten in italian derby with great bloodlines by Highest honour ex Dixieland Band mare.

Pedigree includes Grey Sovereign (x2) and Caro both good sources of olympic showjumpers and appear in many of the worlds top showjumping pedigrees.


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## cundlegreen (8 November 2012)

bonmahonsporthorses said:



			A new throughbred stallion that was approved by Horse sport Ireland last season is Ansiei, a quality athletic looking throughbred stallion, that won a stakes race and was barely beaten in italian derby with great bloodlines by Highest honour ex Dixieland Band mare.

Pedigree includes Grey Sovereign (x2) and Caro both good sources of olympic showjumpers and appear in many of the worlds top showjumping pedigrees.
		
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If you are looking for temperament, then I'd steer clear of things with Grey Sovereign blood. I had one and knew of several that were nutters. Interesting that they are now in sports horse bloodlines.


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## Jabba (8 November 2012)

Over the last few weeks I have seen three fantastic fillies by Loughehoe Guy out of draught mares. One had a questionable temperament, but the mare she was out of seemed to be the same!! So with my mare having excellent temperament hopefully she will pass it on (she has so far). Loughehoe Guy is at top of the list to use, then Musical Pursuit (only ever seen one of his geldings and if Musical Pursuit can produce a horse like he was, out of a plain and untalented mare as this gelding was then I'd hope he would produce a super star out of my mare. My play it safe card is Watermill Swatch. Watching our yearling filly by him in the field and jumping out of them! He would be great for this mare, but I'd like to use a stallion I haven't used already. Does anyone have contact details for Loughehoe Guy and Musical Pursuit? I've tried number in the stud book, but no answer! Would I have to wait to the start of the season to get an answer?


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## Maesfen (8 November 2012)

Interesting about the L Guy fillies.  I can honestly say that you wouldn't get a nicer mare to handle than Frieda who was by him and her filly by Maurice Minor has the same lovely temperament.
Is it worth ringing HSI to see if they have up to date contact details, failing that, ask Eothian, he might know?


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## Jabba (8 November 2012)

The other two L Guy fillies, were excellent! I couldn't point out one fault with them. I actually put on offer on one, but niether of the owners of these two are willing to sell at any price and I don't blame them. The one with the questionable temperament was the first I seen. 5 year old that has been getting double clears at 1.20m. and has loads of potential, but the rider had his work cut out. She was fighting him the whole way round, yet still got a double clear! When I went over to look at the horse it tried to bite me as I looked her over and when standing discussing her with her owner she kicked out! We were to far away for her to reach, but she thought it was close enough to give it a good try! Then I noticed out of 6 horses the owner had with him she was the only one that didn't have travelling boots on... I asked the rider what he thought about her temperament and his reply was "you don't mind a bit of attitude when they have a jump like hers." For me there was too much attitude. Funny I found out that the owner has been trying to sell her for over a year!


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## Lark (8 November 2012)

Jabba said:



			The other two L Guy fillies, were excellent! I couldn't point out one fault with them. I actually put on offer on one, but niether of the owners of these two are willing to sell at any price and I don't blame them. The one with the questionable temperament was the first I seen. 5 year old that has been getting double clears at 1.20m. and has loads of potential, but the rider had his work cut out. She was fighting him the whole way round, yet still got a double clear! When I went over to look at the horse it tried to bite me as I looked her over and when standing discussing her with her owner she kicked out! We were to far away for her to reach, but she thought it was close enough to give it a good try! Then I noticed out of 6 horses the owner had with him she was the only one that didn't have travelling boots on... I asked the rider what he thought about her temperament and his reply was "you don't mind a bit of attitude when they have a jump like hers." For me there was too much attitude. Funny I found out that the owner has been trying to sell her for over a year!
		
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Are you sure it was LG and not LR - Lakeshore Road 
Any Loughehoes I have come across have been very pleasant.


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## Jabba (9 November 2012)

Lark, it is funny you say that. After I looked at the horse, I had someone approach me and warn me about the horses passport! I couldn't really pickup what he was saying and didn't bother questioning him more on it, as I already made my mind up to avoid the horse.


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## Jabba (13 November 2012)

I just want to make a correction, the Loughehoe Guy mare I mentioned above with 'questionable' temperament has in fact unknown breeding!! Being new to the horse business I put trust and honesty at the forefront of any of my dealings and it is a real shame that there is a few in the horse industry that do not do the same!

As stated above I knew the dam that is being claimed to be the dam of this mare and I knew she had a filly in 2007 by Loughehoe Guy. Sadly the breeder is no longer with us, but his son is! The son was able to tell me that the filly, this filly is claimed to be, was sold to England with Passport and recorded breeding in 2010 and is starting eventing this year with an 18 year old girl!

Now I don&#8217;t know for sure if the current owner of this &#8216;Questionable&#8217; mare is the person who has fabricated this mares breeding or he has been done and he honestly believes his mare is by Loughehoe Guy out of Comber Diamond May (by Crosstown Dancer), but the matter stands that at some point research was done to find a Loughehoe Guy filly born in 2007 and this mare is being advertised for sale as this filly! The current owner has stated to me, as I guess he has done to many others, that this mare has recorded breeding in her passport, which she does not! Does he not know that if someone were serious about buying her they at some point are going to check the passport. 

I apologise for not doing my research before publishing about this &#8216;questionable&#8217; mare and hope that those who have read it can forget the un-researched words of a gullible idiot. Loughehoe Guy is a great Stallion!


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## Maesfen (13 November 2012)

Don't take it to heart Jabba, it's not your fault, you can only go by what people tell you but it'll be a shame if Guy's good name is slurred by current owner of mare insisting she's by him when she's not.

I think whoever buys that mare will need to do a DNA or blood typing to get to the bottom of her parentage or it will be forever a case of ignorance is bliss until they try to register any offspring when the S**t will hit the fan.


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## happy-appy (25 March 2013)

Sorry I missed this thread when it was originally posted. Anyhow I see that Jabba was interested in Diamond Discovery, and that SeaBiscuit seems to know something of him also. My young lad is by Diamond Discovery (albeit out of an 'unnamed' mare ....long story...)

My lad's temperament is lovely, moves beautiufully and he has looks to die for  (biased mummy!)  Mail me if you would like pics or to see a video of free jumping.

There is a YouTube video of Diamond Discovery at the Royal Dublin horseshow if you do a Google search on it. Diamond Discovery's temparement is lovely and his owner (Tim O'Regan) reckons that he is the gentlest stallion he has ever owned!

There is also another Youtube video of a young horse called 'Murphy Diamond Discovery' if you do a search, who is also by Diamond Discovery. 

You are probably sorted out by now, if not, then I'd be glad to share pics or share further info if you private message me.


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## Kacey88 (26 March 2013)

My dad has two ID mares in foal to Loughaghoe guy, one is by Huntingfield Rebel and the other by Flagmount King. The Flagmount King mare is very nice with loads of bone, can't wait to see the foals when they arrive.


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## Luci07 (26 March 2013)

How about French Buffet? he is at the same stud as Watermill Swatch. TB, grand prix SJ was in Holland on the KWPN studbook for a long time and now in Ireland. Mine is out of him so I have been therefore been looking at his stock (there aren't a lot as he has not been in Ireland for long). Found 4 now including mine, 3 eventing and 1 just backed. All seem to have exceptionally good temperaments though have been told  FB can come across as a bit sour. All stock seem to have good natural jumping techniques too. Now seen 3 "in the flesh" and seem to be a similar stamp, tend to be short coupled but well put together and bright horses. Mine does better when he can work things out for himself which is exactly what I like in an eventer! YO likes mine so much she is on the verge of buying another younger FB baby to bring on to event.


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## Sportznight (26 March 2013)

gadetra said:



			There are quite a few Emperor Agustus foals around, long elegant types. Think he win the Croker cup? There are quite a few of them showing.
		
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OH WOW!!!  Totally irrelevant to the thread, but I worked with him as a foal and almost all of his family (Hishi Nile, Hishi Amazon, Katies, etc).  He sold as a yearling for $1,050,000!


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## GinnieRedwings (27 March 2013)

Luci07, unless I've missed something... isn't French Buffet dead?


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## Simsar (27 March 2013)

Ginnie yup I think your right!


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## Luci07 (27 March 2013)

GinnieRedwings said:



			Luci07, unless I've missed something... isn't French Buffet dead?
		
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oh C*ap your right. When I was looking previously, the studbook doesn't actually say that .. and I should have picked up on the 2010 comment. That is a shame as just starting to see his stock now and really like them.


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## gadetra (27 March 2013)

Luci07 said:



			oh C*ap your right. When I was looking previously, the studbook doesn't actually say that .. and I should have picked up on the 2010 comment. That is a shame as just starting to see his stock now and really like them.
		
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He has left some stunning and very talented stock behind him. 
He is a huge loss, although an older horse when he came to stand here. Great type. 
There might be a filly out there with my name in her yet...


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## welshdanash (12 September 2013)

Hello,

Reviving an old thread! I was just curious if you ended up making a final decision for your draught mare? My RID mare had her first foal by Mill Law this year. We are really pleased with the result. Im just curious to see the results when the Stallion is a TB and the mare a draught. I have added photo of our little guy.


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## Zebe (25 January 2014)

I know this is an old thread! Kacey, how did your LG foals turn out? I have a flagmount king mare (also with loads of bone) & LG is on my short list for this year.


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