# neurological hind limb lameness - experiences please?



## cptrayes (6 May 2012)

Hi, I'm just looking for more information and experiences from anyone who has had a horse diagnosed with hind limb lameness due to neurological issues.

The vet has just diagnosed mine, who suddenly went lame yesterday staggering on his back legs. He can just about stand still OK; in a straight line he wobbles about, and when he turns a  circle he is almost falling off his feet behind.

We have him on bute for now and being kept quiet. If he does not show signs of improvement by Tuesday the vet wants to take spine xrays, from the neck back until we find something.

I've got no problem with that, but I don't want to put  him through an hour each way journey to the hospital, the lorry ramps etc, unless there is a very good reason.

It is possible he has just pinched his spinal cord being a spring idiot in the field. There has been some wild behaviour in my little herd the last few days. But worryingly, he has had a slight toe-drag behind for about a month and if this is an escalation of that it may be much more serious.

If anyone has any experience of this can you let me know -

- what your xrays showed
- what treatment was different from having the xrays to go by (were they really necessary, or just nice to have)
- whether surgery was recommended, and if it was done, whether the horse returned to full work


Good and bad news would be equally of value to me right now, as this is a new one on me in over 30 years of being around horses and I am completely in the dark. 

The horse is 10, a heavily muscled middleweight KWPN.


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## Always Henesy (6 May 2012)

Hi 
It does sound like possible wobblers to me.
If it is hind legs then likely to be compression of the C spine (neck). This could be genetic, one of those things (common in bigger horses) or due to an injury from a fall or some kind of trauma to the neck.
I have had (sadly) much experience of this (if it is neurological) and the prognosis was not good for my lad.
After ground tests and xrays of his C-Spine he was diagnosed with grade 2 wobblers - it was rapid onset and had got very bad within 6 months.

Henesy had no idea that anything was wrong with him, but he was gradually losing the ability to control his hind legs as the compression on his spine worsened. I could not leave him to get to the stage of lying down/rolling and not being able to get back up. It is also potentially dangerous (no riding allowed once diagnosed for obvious reasons). Horses with wobblers are also more likely to cause themselves serious injury (you can read some of my story in the veterinary pictures section).

I highly recommend that you get the xrays done.

Sadly for Henesy it was the end of the road - I turned him out for the summer last year and had him quietly pts in his field and I stayed with him until they came to pick him up.

I hope the outcome for you is a good one and that you don't have the heartache that I did.

I wish you well.


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## Always Henesy (6 May 2012)

Forgot to say that Henesy was 13 and surgery is an option in some cases.
However, it is very risky, costly and not always successful.


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## foxy1 (6 May 2012)

You may know this already but Kerilli in comp riders had a mare with a suddenly wobbily back end, think it may have been a virus that caused it in the end?


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## SusieT (6 May 2012)

Could be anything causing it, it's very difficult to say. Have had xrays where the cervical vertebrae were misformed (8yr old) causing the ataxia. Not a good prognosis for him I'm afraid. 
 If he is v. ataxic I'd be in your very wary of travelling him camp, he could well go over. Is he on steroids? They can often make a massive difference. There is unlikely to be any benign 'pinching' of the spinal cord as for a 'pinch' to occur it is because there is something occluding it. Given the toe drag as well, I'd be suspicious of something going on. Could be viral-but has he been off colour?
Is your vet a referral level place?
X-rays are a must-can't diagnose a spinal injury without them, ay narrowing of the vertebral canal which could well be causing this and so on. They will determine treatment.


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## Pebble101 (6 May 2012)

My friends horse had a similar thing, originally vet thought it was neurological problem in the neck.  Less than 48 hours later he was pts.  Steroids had no effect, at the end he was circling non-stop.  More experienced vet had a look at the 2 videos that had been taken (one at the start and one at the end) and said he had seen similar symptoms in liver failure.  Sorry, not what you wanted to hear.


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## rockyneddy (6 May 2012)

Hi i will be following this thread with interest as i have got the same/similar problem at the moment. its either neurological or very severe pain due the recently diagnoise spavin?. The lack of cordination is only when i get on him, in hand, loose etc he's fine


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## cptrayes (6 May 2012)

foxy1 said:



			You may know this already but Kerilli in comp riders had a mare with a suddenly wobbily back end, think it may have been a virus that caused it in the end?
		
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I'm in touch with Kerilli, thankyou.


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## cptrayes (6 May 2012)

Always Henesy said:



			Hi 
It does sound like possible wobblers to me.
If it is hind legs then likely to be compression of the C spine (neck). This could be genetic, one of those things (common in bigger horses) or due to an injury from a fall or some kind of trauma to the neck.
I have had (sadly) much experience of this (if it is neurological) and the prognosis was not good for my lad.
After ground tests and xrays of his C-Spine he was diagnosed with grade 2 wobblers - it was rapid onset and had got very bad within 6 months.

Henesy had no idea that anything was wrong with him, but he was gradually losing the ability to control his hind legs as the compression on his spine worsened. I could not leave him to get to the stage of lying down/rolling and not being able to get back up. It is also potentially dangerous (no riding allowed once diagnosed for obvious reasons). Horses with wobblers are also more likely to cause themselves serious injury (you can read some of my story in the veterinary pictures section).

I highly recommend that you get the xrays done.

Sadly for Henesy it was the end of the road - I turned him out for the summer last year and had him quietly pts in his field and I stayed with him until they came to pick him up.

I hope the outcome for you is a good one and that you don't have the heartache that I did.

I wish you well.
		
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I did not know it was common in big horses. That's not good  news, he's nearly 17 hands. The toe-dragging is a worry. He was sound in spite of it, but it's been there for a few weeks, monitored with my vet, and he's "knuckled over" a couple of times when ridden. The real wobbling was very quick in onset, yesterday, but the history is very worrying.

Unfortunately Jazz knows full well that he is in trouble, and is also using his back muscles so much to stay on his feet that his back is sore too. The vet is, though, absolutely certain from the tests he did that this is neurological and not a muscle or joint issue.

I'm not hopeful, to be honest.


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## cptrayes (6 May 2012)

Pebble101 said:



			My friends horse had a similar thing, originally vet thought it was neurological problem in the neck.  Less than 48 hours later he was pts.  Steroids had no effect, at the end he was circling non-stop.  More experienced vet had a look at the 2 videos that had been taken (one at the start and one at the end) and said he had seen similar symptoms in liver failure.  Sorry, not what you wanted to hear.
		
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He isn't moving unless asked to, and he is very bright with no other signs. I doubt liver failure as an issue but then I was also unaware that it could produce neurological symptoms of that kind (though I know that they can bang their heads on the wall at the end). So thankyou, I will certainly get bloods before doing anything drastic.


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## cptrayes (6 May 2012)

rockyneddy said:



			Hi i will be following this thread with interest as i have got the same/similar problem at the moment. its either neurological or very severe pain due the recently diagnoise spavin?. The lack of cordination is only when i get on him, in hand, loose etc he's fine

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Mine also has spavin but has been sound on them for years and passed flexion tests a week ago which were done to check out the toe drag. Unfortunately mine is not even fine loose, though he was until I rode him for 20 minutes yesterday.  We definitely did something during that time that made him much worse very quickly.


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## cptrayes (6 May 2012)

SusieT said:



			Could be anything causing it, it's very difficult to say. Have had xrays where the cervical vertebrae were misformed (8yr old) causing the ataxia. Not a good prognosis for him I'm afraid. 
 If he is v. ataxic I'd be in your very wary of travelling him camp, he could well go over. Is he on steroids? They can often make a massive difference. There is unlikely to be any benign 'pinching' of the spinal cord as for a 'pinch' to occur it is because there is something occluding it. Given the toe drag as well, I'd be suspicious of something going on. Could be viral-but has he been off colour?
Is your vet a referral level place?
X-rays are a must-can't diagnose a spinal injury without them, ay narrowing of the vertebral canal which could well be causing this and so on. They will determine treatment.
		
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Sorry Susie, can you explain "travelling him camp", I don't understand. He is't on steroids and I have made a note to ask the vet about them when I update him on Tuesday.

He's not been off colour. In fact the most hopeful thing is probably what mad fools all my little herd have been messing around this spring. It is possible that this is "just" a tweak, but if it is, it's one hell of a tweak. I've never seen anything like it before 

My concern at taking him to hospital for xrays is whether he can even get in and out of the lorry, or stand while it is in motion. And then whether there is any treatment possible which would keep him alive anyway. Surgery won't be an option, for a number of reasons. He's not exactly a "normal" horse I'm afraid, and long term paddock ornament is not an option either. 

Unless choice of drugs would depend on what is seen on an xray, and those drugs would bring him sound and return him to work at some time in the future, then I'm still not sure that forcing him to travel will be in his best interests.


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## cptrayes (6 May 2012)

Thankyou everyone for sparing time to reply. It helps to know what we are dealing with, good or bad.


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## Pebble101 (6 May 2012)

cptrayes said:



			He isn't moving unless asked to, and he is very bright with no other signs. I doubt liver failure as an issue but then I was also unaware that it could produce neurological symptoms of that kind (though I know that they can bang their heads on the wall at the end). So thankyou, I will certainly get bloods before doing anything drastic.
		
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Her horse was OK without any other signs as well, still eating at the end.  However she never had a PM done so it was not definate.


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## SusieT (6 May 2012)

'

Sorry Susie, can you explain "travelling him camp", I don't understand. He is't on steroids and I have made a note to ask the vet about them when I update him on Tuesday.

He's not been off colour. In fact the most hopeful thing is probably what mad fools all my little herd have been messing around this spring. It is possible that this is "just" a tweak, but if it is, it's one hell of a tweak. I've never seen anything like it before

My concern at taking him to hospital for xrays is whether he can even get in and out of the lorry, or stand while it is in motion. And then whether there is any treatment possible which would keep him alive anyway. Surgery won't be an option, for a number of reasons. He's not exactly a "normal" horse I'm afraid, and long term paddock ornament is not an option either.

Unless choice of drugs would depend on what is seen on an xray, and those drugs would bring him sound and return him to work at some time in the future, then I'm still not sure that forcing him to travel will be in his best interests. '

I meant-I would also be concerned about travelling him and as you say him getting safely on and off the lorry.
Steroids will for example do very little good if it is a vertebral malformation as seen on xray but if it is trauma related or (I think) meningitis related they could be very very useful-although the symptoms sound more spinal and sounds like that is where the vet has localised them to. A fracture might just require rest, or it might be a case of him having steroids injected locally to a lesion-it really is something that needs further diagnostics. The wait and see option isn't really fair on you or him as he may have a hopeless prognosis or it may not be so bad. Most ataxia causes don't have surgical treatments anyway. Does he have a temperature?
Is the place you're taking him referral level? Just thinking from the point of view if he has to travel, he might as well travel somewhere that's really hot on their neuro.


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## cptrayes (6 May 2012)

Thanks Susie, that's helpful. No temperature, normal gut and wee, normal heart, thankfully. I can easily see how he could have bust a neck vertebra. They were galloping madly around inside a 30x10 metre barn yesterday morning. The walls come up pretty quick.

It's a vet hospital but I don't think it would be called referral level. They usually refer to Leahurst but that's two hours, two and a half at the speed he would have to travel 

On the bright side, I checked him just now and he has definitely improved since this morning, so at least the bute is doing something to help any pain, if nothing else is going on.  At least he should be able to stand still more comfortably tonight.


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## SusieT (6 May 2012)

That's a good sign- if its trauma related i.e inflammation bute will be reducing the inflammation-trauma and soft tissue damage is probably your best prognosis at the moment.


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## cptrayes (6 May 2012)

Thanks Susie. 

Ironically, if he is well enough by midweek I'll be getting him there for xrays pronto. If he has a susceptibility to trauma to the spinal cord somewhere, as I think he must to have these severe symptoms, then I need to know where it is and how to manage it.


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## catherine22 (6 May 2012)

My mare has this, was very wobbly, especailly when travelling. When looose or under saddle she had hyperflexion of her hocks (which have been injected), stringhalt like. She was referred to the vet school in cambridge, who after xrays and examinations discovered a fracture at the base of her neck - not impinging the spinal cord though and a fracture of her sacral bone in her pelvis, which has caused nerve damage (causing the hind leg action). She had a fall in the trailer back in October which is when they think the damage was done, even though she was sound straight after, the continual work and possible tweak may have finished it off. She will also stand and stamp, both when in and out which the vets have said is due to the shooting pains which the nerves are giving off whilst trying to regrow. She has been but on a low dose of gabapentin, which she has had for 2 weeks (all this has happened in the last couple on months) but it has done nothing. From tuesday she will have the dose doubled in the hope it will help. If is doesnt then she will be PTS


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## cptrayes (6 May 2012)

Thanks Catherine, that's very interesting, especially the delayed onset. My boy was sound until about 20 minutes into a session when I turned a tight circle and something "went". That would fit with an earlier fall, causing an injury which caused the toe drag, which then went critical yesterday due to the tight turn.  Thanks for posting.


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## coss (6 May 2012)

the toe dragging reminds me of a horse i worked with a few years ago - he was/is a shiverer. The disease is genetic and is something that deteriorates with age. Each horse can take different times to deteriorate though.


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## cptrayes (6 May 2012)

Thanks Coss. I don't know much about shiverers. He's never had a problem having his feet picked out and I thought that was one way that it showed. Do they also go ataxic - very wobbly on the hind end, especially on a circle?


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## coss (6 May 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Thanks Coss. I don't know much about shiverers. He's never had a problem having his feet picked out and I thought that was one way that it showed. Do they also go ataxic - very wobbly on the hind end, especially on a circle?
		
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i no expert - i think it depends on each individual case, usually one leg worse than the other but the horse i worked with was i think about 16 so had a few years on your horse to develop the shivery leg when picking out. as the horse wasn't mine and it didn't affect us in our work other than him being stiff and lacking engagement (it improved but only to a certain extent with work) i haven't done a lot of research. The little i do know suggests that it does affect different horses in different ways though -sorry that's probably not much help 

I did have a friend with another horse (on loan) that i suspect was also a shiverer though different to the above. He actually collapsed whilst ridden and would sometime collapse when standing out in the field (which is why they didn't keep him). He didn't maintain condition easily and didn't have shivery feet for picking out. Had competed to a highish level of dressage (medium+) but couldn't engage fully by the time they got him (i tried him out for them) so wobbly, yes, i think you could say he did get to that stage but different to your case


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## flintfootfilly (6 May 2012)

Six years ago, I had a yearling gelding who came in from the field looking drunk, falling over 6 times on the way up the field to the yard, and doing a hideous uncoordinated canter trying to keep up with the others on his way in.

He was very unsteady on his feet.  Any fingertip pressure from the side on his quarters would make him so unsteady he'd almost fall over.  He had no tone in his tail.  You could lift it up vertically and there was no resistance.  He found it very difficult to even turn round in the stable without losing his balance.

I spoke to Tim Phillips at Liphook in general terms (Liphook had been suggested to me as THE place for wobblers stuff).  He pretty much said we had 3 options:

- try and prove he was was a wobbler (Xrays etc)
- give him time and see if he improved
- pts

He also said if it was wobblers, we were unlikely to see any improvements.

However, he also said that if it was wobblers, then there is more chance of success with an op the sooner it is done.

We opted to give him time.  I kept a detailed log of observations, and started to notice very small things, like that I could pick a foot up for a second or so without him losing his balance, and building up from there.  It gave us hope to continue.

Within about four months, he was pretty much back to normal.

Oh, I was also told there could be other things that could result in similar signs:

Equine herpes myelitis was something that has been suggested to me more recently.

Don't know if any of that is helpful or relevant, but hope you get to the bottom of things, and that he can be helped.

Sarah


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## Spook (6 May 2012)

Had this horse been wormed with an Ivermectin based wormer, injected with Dectomax or both?...... I'm convinced we have had "wobblers" brought on by this means.


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## RutlandH2O (6 May 2012)

Is it not possible to have the X-rays done at your place? I had an 11 months old colt go from completely normal in the am, refusing to lift his head above the level of his back in the pm, and completely ataxic by the next morning. He was diagnosed with high grade 3 Wobblers, which was verified by a series of X-rays a few days later. He had spinal compression at C4/C5. The option of travelling him in my trailer to the vet was out of the question. Because of his tender age, I decided to adopt a dietary regime, suggested by my vet, of stringently weighed hay, based on a percentage of his weight, and a high dose of Vitamin E daily. After 3 months I did see a vast improvement. I won't bore you with all the details that I've posted before, but, to make a long story shorter, he's still with me and is rising 3 years of age. He is now considered a low grade 1. He has full proprioception and never drags his feet. He will never be ridden or driven, and, yes, he is a huge Shire field ornament. He owes me nothing. Whether this could be a possibility for your horse remains to be seen. The X-rays should be most revealing. I wish you all the best.


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## cptrayes (7 May 2012)

Well Sarah, that's the first recovery anyone has told me about, so it does help, thankyou.

Spook I haven't wormed him recently, he's due now. I did him with Moxidectin (same drug as dectomax but oral?) last autumn and in the meantime he learnt 3 time tempis. He did them well for a month or so and then suddenly couldn't get the left/right change on a straight line any more. Shortly after that he began to toe drag one foot. He knuckled over on that foot a couple of times while I have been riding. My overnight research suggests that all this is connected, and if so, it doesn't look good 

Rutland I think we would want to go on to the back if the neck doesn't show anything and I think we need the big machine at the hospital to do his back. I'm not sure, I'll find out. It's a good suggestion though, we can at least get his neck done without travelling and that may be enough if the problem is in his neck. 

This horse is mentally very challenged with a number of other problems that I would hesistate to ask anyone else to take on. I don't think he can be kept as a pasture ornament, especially not here on a field that slopes by 25% and is difficult to walk on even with your full senses. He is violent, in the extreme, to any new horse. I certainly wouldn't want him in my field if I didn't already have him  

I will be gutted if I lose him. I have fought for 6 years to overcome his problems (many and dangerous!) with all my friends asking why I bother. He has just given me my lifetime dream - tempis. He's a beautiful, shining, fit, emotionally dependant, utterly loving, gorgeous creature. Please cross your fingers for him.


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## Circe (7 May 2012)

Hi OP,
I'll send you a pm, as it sounds very similar to my boy.
Kx


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## flintfootfilly (7 May 2012)

OP, there is one other thing that keeps coming to mind for me, but it's something that I am wondering about with my gang, and I have no proof of it yet.

But with you saying your boy has had a toe drag for a month or so, and also that he is very aggressive with other horses...

So I'll mention it, but like I say it's a bit of a hunch with my gang at the moment and it may or may not have any relevance to your boy.

EPSM (equine polysaccaride storage myopathy) is known to cause ataxia in some horses.

I've been reading around more widely on muscle diseases, so looking at diseases other than EPSM, and of course whatever the actual muscle disease, the fact that muscle can't function properly can result in similar signs with different diseases.

I've had a string of ponies who all seem to end up succumbing to something, usually involving a lack of desire to go forward, and I've had various tests and investigations done.

I think what we've reached now is indications that it is a chronic form of selenium deficiency.  I should say that the two blood tests I've had done on different ponies do not confirm this, and yet their symptoms seem absolutely right IMHO for selenium deficiency.

Selenium deficiency is known to cause white muscle disease (aka nutritional muscular dystrophy) in foals and also in adult horses, although this is more unusual.

It typically causes an odd stilted hindlimb action (in common with other muscle diseases), and affected horses have raised muscle enzymes.

I've become aware that a lot of hay/grass from all around the UK is deficient in selenium, and I'm astonished that there aren't more cases of horses succumbing to selenium deficiency.

It probably isn't what's happening with your boy, but who knows.  It might be one more thing to keep an open mind on.  And the thing with a Se deficiency is that you have a good chance of reversing it, with appropriate selenium supplementation.

My hay (off lovely rich-looking grass) only has around half of the selenium recommended by NRC.  It is well within the range considered deficient in many papers.  I have not supplemented fully with balancers etc, and so even with a bit of hard feed, it wasn't raising the levels enough.

Anyway, long and short, it may just be worth having a blood test and at least including muscle enzymes, and if they're elevated looking a little further (of course they could be elevated because he's ill and using his muscles awkwardly at the mo).  Are there any previous blood tests he's had done that you could check muscle enzyme levels on, because if this has been something going on longer term, then it'll probably show up as just slightly raised levels of CK and AST enzymes?

Like I say, a long shot, but it is something you can do something about if it's that, although appropriate supplementation can take up to 5 months or so to take full effect.

Sarah


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## cptrayes (7 May 2012)

Sarah thankyou for taking the time to write that. I'm open to all suggestions. I didn't know that EPSM could cause ataxia. Apart from a minor sensitivity to too much grass, he shows no other signs of it. I think from your post and other suggestions that blood tests for muscle enzymes, liver function and mineral balances is definitely in order. 

The vet did a number of tests yesterday which he said rule out it coming from his brain and locate it to the neck or back. I suppose that's a help, at least. 

If there are any nutritionists reading, do you know the effect of copper overdose? I supplement copper, but only up to the level which is already in Copper Trition, a product sold with no warnings of overdose. I also supplement magnesium, which I understand should be excreted away if given in excess. I have two other horses on the same regime who are not affected, but we all know how individual they are!

He's walking much better today as long as he does not turn. And to my surprise, he lay down last night, which must be a very good sign, surely?  He is also occasionally shaking his neck in a way which is definitely not characteristic of him. A clue, maybe.


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## Pebble101 (7 May 2012)

Found the following about selenium in a H&H article:

Take care if feeding a selenium supplement. Selenium is toxic in high levels causing apparent blindness, staggering, colic or even death. If high levels are fed over a long period of time, chronic poisoning may be apparent in loss of mane and tail hair and separation of the hoof wall from the foot at the coronary band.


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## cptrayes (7 May 2012)

Thanks Pebble101 I'm reasonably sure that my farmer neighbours have low selenium levels rather than high ones, and I don't supplement any more than is in my general purpose haylage balancer. I'll be able to check this with a friend tomorrow. 

Seabiscuit was poisoned with it, wasn't he? Or was it Phar Lap whose feet fell off??


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## Frozen Hoof Boots (7 May 2012)

Hello, My 6yr BWB horse recently was diagnosed with Ataxia/Wobblers.  It all started off with being fine one day and the next day really stiff when ridden on a circle on one rein, after that one session he'd wore his hind toes out. 
We had a new horse in the field and really thought he'd been running about and pulled something in his neck or back.  He was then in for 10 days due to the snow and afterwards taking him out in the school he'd wore his hind toes out even more.  He was shod, but he actually had a hole in them.  

He wasn't what you would call lame persay but he really couldn't move well behind.  I got the farrier back who had made a terrible job of his feet as they were all unlevel but in hindsight the poor shoeing had amplified the gait abnormality.  I had a chiro in who said he was very tight in his lumbar and then equine massage lady in.  In which after that session we agreed next stage after sorting his feet out it was to the vet for a lameness workup.  I watched as the vet did doing all the neuro tests and I knew where it was heading.  

The vet suggested a Xray of his neck and it came back confirming that he had lipping and spurring of C3/C4 vertebrae.  I took him to the vets as they would not be able to get a good quality portable xray at the yard.  If you can it's better to box there, but tbh be prepared for the worse.  The vet was very grave about the situation and he was graded 2, progressive to 3.  He felt a bone scan would possibly reveal other skeletal issues in his back.  He felt that a Myleogram would be very risky for a wobbly horse under GA.

Within 3 months from that stiffness the symptoms got worse, dropping hind toe mid flight, hind fetlock knuckling, shortening of stride, walking behind like he was walking on a tightrope, dropping front toes mid flight, standing one hind in front of the other and pointed out, sometimes at a 90 degree angle?!, front fore feet started to twist in and he paddled with his forefeet as he walked, swung his hinds out on a turn, screwed his hind toes and hocks as he walked, swivelled on his hinds as he turned on a tight circle and he couldn't go more than 3-4 strides backwards without getting stuck, his hinds would tremor when you picked them up and he wobbled terribly.  

I wanted to give him the summer out in the field before making my decision.  I'd tried to move him one evening when tied up to groom him and he fell against me and squished me against the wall.  I managed to manoeuvre out between him and the wall and he slomped against the wall all twisted.  He never moved his legs to save himself.  I took him back to the vets 6 weeks later after initial diagnosis and the vet was very shocked how he'd deteriorated and graded him finally a 3.  We agreed to PTS and I had to say goodbye to my beautiful boy last week.  I beat myself up for weeks prior wanting to try to do the right thing.

If it is ESPM or Ataxia high doses of Vit E can be very helpful for neuro issues.

I hope that you get a answer for your horse quick and I think your best option would be to have a neck xray to confirm if it could be Ataxia.  If you can't box your horse and its dangerous to do so that is a real worry.  You have to think of your safety and others.  Ataxia can sometimes stabilise, but in our case it got worse.  Those cases that got better were those horses/foals <3yrs.  

Please pm me if you have any questions.  As I think I've possibly ready every document and web page going on the subject.
Applecart14 also had a wobbly horse and was initially wrongly diagnosed ESPM and then finally Wobblers was very kind and helpful, so maybe worth a pm.

All the best let us know how it goes.


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## cptrayes (7 May 2012)

GUG, that sounds horribly familiar     We already have hind fetlock knuckling for the last few weeks and now this sudden deterioration, which we also thought was due to messing about in the field. Thanks for the vitamin E suggestion, I didn't know that could help ataxia. I'll buy some tomorrow.  I'm not hopeful. The more I think about it the less I think he can possibly be kept alive as a paddock ornament. I have to find a cure, or have him put to sleep.

Is it 12,000 - 30,000 iu of vitamin E like for EPSM?


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## flintfootfilly (7 May 2012)

You can buy vitamin E gelcaps from health stores.  I tend to buy mine online from Holland & Barrett.  I opt for the 1,000iu gelcaps - that is generally considered the amount recommended as a daily intake (though if they are on grass, they should be getting plenty from the grass).  I just drop the gelcaps into a feed with some chaff, and most of the time the ponies will eat them.

With the boy who has ongoing muscle problems, I've given him up to 5,000iu vit E/day and that is just fine.  Vit E "does not appear to be toxic to horses even at relatively high intakes" say NRC.

vitamin E, along with selenium, are both known to be powerful antioxidants.

Sarah


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## Amos (7 May 2012)

I have to back up the liver problem linked to back legs not working. I have a pony with liver failure. (All I seem to post about these days!). You would never know there was anything wrong with him, apart from the fact that his back legs are definately not connected to his brain! 

I would say that, due to the sudden onset, this would not be the case for your horse. I do hope you find an answer soon and that it is good news.


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## Frozen Hoof Boots (7 May 2012)

Do have a look at Omega 369 oil from Horsehealth.  it is expensive but does have a high dose of vit E.  Cant remember what though but it is on their site.  The human capsules may hold a higher dosage and maybe better option.

FYI The lameness workup at the vets, xrays etc cost about £300.  Ataxia is very common in WB's.  Once the spinal cord gets pinched/damages and the nerves start to be killed off there are very limited options.  

If you can I would personally try to get to the vet to ensure you can get your answer asap.


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## cptrayes (7 May 2012)

Thanks GUG I'll be ringing the vet on his mobile at 9 tomorrow morning. 

He had his bute reduced to 1 morning and  1 evening today and I also left his buddies in the barn with him to keep him company as he frets badly on his own. Whether they have made him walk around more and he is tired, or the reduction in bute has allowed his spinal cord to swell again, he is less stable on his feet now than he was this morning 

I want the Vit E in a hurry, so I'll be going to Holland and Barrett for human gel capsules Sarah, thanks.

I'm really wondering now. His father is a Grand Prix showjumper, but Jazz made it very clear that jumping is not for him. When we tried to teach him at 4 years old, we could get him to jump one fence, but put a related distance together six strides apart and he would jump neither. At the time, I used to blog that he did not seem to trust himself to know where his feet were. After he broke my shoulder crashing through a cross country fence, we gave up trying to teach him to jump and converted him to dressage, which he's shown a huge talent for. But now I can't help wondering if this is not what stopped him from being able to jump in the first place, and has actually been creeping up on him for 6 years. I am not at all hopeful as things stand.


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## Worried1 (7 May 2012)

Last year we had a clients horse in, an 8-y-o KWPN, he showed hind toe dragging, which we initially thought might be due to lax stifles. He had a couple of odd episodes including exploding when being mounted at competitions. We initially thought this was tension.

Then his movement gradually become very rag doll like, limbs floppy and uncoordinated. He also began to suffer lymphangitis episodes and became very grumpy.

X-rays showed pinching in the cervical area, I'm sorry I can't remember exactly where and also pinching in the thoracic, again cannot remember exactly where. X-rays also showed damage to the left scapula.

He was made comfortable with steroid injections and bute but was PTS a week later as he began to stumble just being led out to the field and got cast twice.

I hope the outcome is better for you.


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## cptrayes (7 May 2012)

Thanks Worried, he is also a KWPN. I am less and less hopeful the more I know. I have taken the other two out of his barn tonight as I do not think he is strong enough to be in with them. He walked past us and we had to jump out of his way as his back end gave way and he almost fell over on us. It is heartbreaking to watch such a proud, strong horse look like a drunken fool. 

Exploding has simply been "par for the course" behaviour for Jazz since I got him as a newly broken four year old. Of course you look back with massive hindsight and wonder how much of that wierd behavour was due to the panic of not knowing where his feet were.

We are going to be very, very lucky if he comes through this, the odds are firmly against him. 

Thanks for the information everyone, do keep posting even if it is bad. I much prefer to know where we stand than to try to look on the bright side if there really isn't one to look on. I showed him to a friend tonight and she was shocked and we both burst into tears. At least this has been quick onset and not dragging on undiagnosed for years.

Hey ho, no-one ever said life was fair.



p.s. the lynphangitis is interesting. One back leg has been subject to filling slightly all winter that I could find no reason for whatsoever.


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## Worried1 (7 May 2012)

Identical to us, with hindsight we wondered why we didn't spot things earlier. Inside a week he became an empty shell we we're all devastated, I'm keeping everything crossed for you its not wobblers.


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## cptrayes (8 May 2012)

The vet has been this morning. Luckily he has only recently completed a course in neurological problems. He is convinced that the problem is originating in his back behind the saddle and that it has been caused by a field accident and not by gradual degeneration. He says that there is too much pain in the loin region itself to be accounted for by the problem being anywhere else.  The neck and spinal process xrays are happening here later in the week and a physio is coming up later today.

He does accept that the toe drag was probably something to do with it. In that case, he tweaked himself a month or more ago and has nursed it along, but then did it good and proper in the mad moment we heard them have the morning he went ataxic. What I don't understand is why his back was so soft in that area all through the time he was dragging his toes. I was checking it regularly because of the toe drag.

Anyway, he says it's too soon to write him off so I have lost a night's sleep for nothing, but at least there is still hope.


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## rockyneddy (8 May 2012)

and has actually been creeping up on him for 6 years??

strangly i can pin point specific 'events' over the last 6 /7 years that i questioned but because 'it' never affected his performance let it go. He also passed a lameness check with flexions and the opinion of the vet was your horse is sound, but does'nt exactly move well for a horse of his type. This in fact lead me to take him barefoot to improve his way of going. been happily working/competeing barefoot for 18mths. Now this


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## HazyXmas (8 May 2012)

I'm glad to read that things look a bit brighter for your lad this morning 

It might not be at all relevant, but i had a similar incident with my daughters old 14.2 comp pony about 18 months ago. We were devastated as vet said he thought PTS very likely. He was turned away at a friends while recovering from an injury, in a small, flat, well fenced field & no sign of anything strange gone on. He was found shaking, wobbling & almost unable to move except shuffle backwards. Vet took bloods which didn't show anything, we wondered about pinched spinal cord or wobblers. He didn't have any x-rays as we couldn't travel him but had 2 danolin a day & then some very strong drugs for dogs! (Sorry i can't remember what they were called as very distressed at the time) 
After seven days i decided that he needed to come home in case of worst happening, vet said that he didn't know how he'd travel but that we could try. I drove at a snail's pace & it took 45 mins to do a 20 min journey. He was fine & so, so pleased to be home. I kept him in for 24 hours & was worried as he didn't drink or wee but happily ate well soaked hay. Thinking that this was it, i decided to turn him out as bright sunny day & i knew he would love some grass, he surprised us all by cantering across to his friends  He did have another 8 weeks off but did return to work & even did some XC comps before being semi-retired to a friend to hack. He is still going strong & was 21 yesterday


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## Frozen Hoof Boots (8 May 2012)

Good news that you're getting some xrays etc.  I hope that you have a positive outcome and a diagnosis.  Is pain relief helping or not?

My horse was v tight and solid in his lumber and his hamstrings.  The equine massage helped to loosen up but highlighted wobbly wonky legs even more.

Fingers x'd for you. Stay positive. 
Let us know the outcome.


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## cptrayes (8 May 2012)

rockyneddy said:



			and has actually been creeping up on him for 6 years??

strangly i can pin point specific 'events' over the last 6 /7 years that i questioned but because 'it' never affected his performance let it go. He also passed a lameness check with flexions and the opinion of the vet was your horse is sound, but does'nt exactly move well for a horse of his type. This in fact lead me to take him barefoot to improve his way of going. been happily working/competeing barefoot for 18mths. Now this

Click to expand...


The vet says that even with severe ataxia originating in the neck it would be extremely unusual to identify as much pain in the loins as Jazz is showing. He's convinced it's an injury, not a slow nerve degradation over time. He doesn't rule out a vertebra weakness, but he also thinks there is a fair possibiility, with a long rehab, of him returning to his previous level of work.

His movement before this was pretty stunning, so although he never would jump, whatever it was that was stopping him didn't stop him producing points-winning elementary work, competing medium and learning advanced at home.

I'm all set for a long, long rehab, starting with physio today and then a week of intense physio as a boarder while I am away for a week  next week (what timing!). 

I hope you get a better understanding of what is going on with your horse soon. 

We are having xrays at home on Friday which I hope will rule out any problem in the neck, which would be more likely to be degenerative. 

Mine has always been barefoot, which is just as well because he'd be damaging himself badly with shoes on by kicking his own legs and standing on  his own feet


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## cptrayes (8 May 2012)

HazyXmas said:



			I'm glad to read that things look a bit brighter for your lad this morning 

It might not be at all relevant, but i had a similar incident with my daughters old 14.2 comp pony about 18 months ago. We were devastated as vet said he thought PTS very likely. He was turned away at a friends while recovering from an injury, in a small, flat, well fenced field & no sign of anything strange gone on. He was found shaking, wobbling & almost unable to move except shuffle backwards. Vet took bloods which didn't show anything, we wondered about pinched spinal cord or wobblers. He didn't have any x-rays as we couldn't travel him but had 2 danolin a day & then some very strong drugs for dogs! (Sorry i can't remember what they were called as very distressed at the time) 
After seven days i decided that he needed to come home in case of worst happening, vet said that he didn't know how he'd travel but that we could try. I drove at a snail's pace & it took 45 mins to do a 20 min journey. He was fine & so, so pleased to be home. I kept him in for 24 hours & was worried as he didn't drink or wee but happily ate well soaked hay. Thinking that this was it, i decided to turn him out as bright sunny day & i knew he would love some grass, he surprised us all by cantering across to his friends  He did have another 8 weeks off but did return to work & even did some XC comps before being semi-retired to a friend to hack. He is still going strong & was 21 yesterday 

Click to expand...


Oh wow, a good news story with identical symptoms.  Thankyou!!!


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## cptrayes (8 May 2012)

GiddyUpGirl said:



			Good news that you're getting some xrays etc.  I hope that you have a positive outcome and a diagnosis.  Is pain relief helping or not?

My horse was v tight and solid in his lumber and his hamstrings.  The equine massage helped to loosen up but highlighted wobbly wonky legs even more.

Fingers x'd for you. Stay positive. 
Let us know the outcome. 

Click to expand...

The Vet has warned me that physio may well loosen him up and make him stagger worse, but is adamant it's the right thing to do for him. He got a lot worse when the bute went down from 4 a day to 2 and I forgot, in the stress of it all, to ask what to do from now on. I'm waiting on a call to let me know. 

I am extremely lucky to own a 30 yard long barn with a soft surface. At least if he goes down he won't get cast, and he has room to keep moving gently. I've just checked him and he looks far better than he did this morning or at 2am last night.

I'm not good at staying positive. I usually prefer to look on the black side and then be pleased when it doesn't happen! I can't keep that up for months though, and this is beginning to look long-haul unless we see something drastic on the xrays, so I'll have to change the habit of a lifetime.

Your support (and everyone's) is very much appreciated.  Thankyou everyone.



p.s. I offered the vet to do as many bloods as he wanted but he said he thought it would be pointless to do anything but EHV, and he is pretty certain that will come back negative. He offered to do liver/muscle enzymes etc if I wanted but he did not want them himself so I haven't asked him to do them.


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## Amos (8 May 2012)

What a horrible, horrible worrying situation for you. Nothing to add other then I have all fingers and toes crossed for you. Is there any reason why the xrays aren't being done straight away? Friday seems a long way away!


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## cptrayes (8 May 2012)

It's when this particular vet has time in his diary for us not to rush things. 

He's a big horse, it's going to take a long time to get all the shots we'll need. He could have done Thursday at a squeeze.  He's only just done a course on neurological lameness, so I don't want anyone else. And he is convinced that with sufficient time, there is a "good" chance that Jazz will come right, so he doesn't see any medical/humane reason to rush. I think he knows exactly where he is expecting his spine to be out of alignment and will be surprised if he finds a congenital malformation in the neck. So from his point of view, these xrays are for confirmation of a diagnosis he has already made, not to make the diagnosis. I'm not suggesting that he is inflexible or has completely made up his mind, just that there are so many signs that he is seeing that there is a very likely cause, and he is not seeing any of the signs he would expect if it was a neck or brain issue.  Also the fact that his rehab, if he makes it, will be months not weeks. He made it quite clear that he would have to deteriorate a lot more than he has more before he would be looking at putting him to sleep. 

It would be good to have them sooner, but I'd rather have the right man. But you are right, Friday is a long way away!


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## cptrayes (8 May 2012)

Just to answer the xray question we were talking about yesterday. The portable xray is only powerful enough to do the neck and the spinal processes of the back. To get the back vertebrae he will have to go to hospital. But the spinal processes on either side of the injury should, in theory, be out of alignment and enable us to confirm the site of the injury by that.  If we can't find anything on those xrays and he fails to improve then he will have to travel to the hospital, at snail's pace, for the bigger machine.


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## cptrayes (9 May 2012)

Update today is not good. He is moving better, but the physio has just been and is totally convinced that the back pain is referred and muscle spasm. From the tests she did on his neck he is able to bend the top and the bottom but he has a piece in the middle that he cannot bend, which stays as straight as a board, particularly in the direction of his weaker hind leg. I could see it clearly myself. She wasn't prepared to do anything else with him until we see the xrays, for fear of causing more problems. 

She's left me with stuff to do with him, as often as I can, which will stop his proprioceptors dying off if we can keep the nerves stimulated. They include fixing curb chain round his ankle for half an hour and then moving it over to the other foot.  Whilst she was filling out her forms his neck cracked like a gunshot. Not good.

She says there is a lot we can do to get him better, but I am not holding out any hopes. I certainly wouldn't be prepared to ride a horse that big and powerful if there was any chance that bending his neck slightly wrongly could bring him down one day 

So, we are now holding on for the neck xrays, which she has already warned me may be inconclusive. 

It does help knowing that there are other people who will actually care whether I post this update. Thankyou.


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## BigRed (9 May 2012)

I believe the correct term for what your horse has/is doing is becoming ataxic.  I can tell you of my own experience.  I owned a TB mare 16.3hh 16 years old, but really fit and well.  I was having a lesson and she tripped very badly.  I thought she might have tweaked something.  She was OK so we continued with the lesson.  Next day she was clipping the road with her hind toes.  Following day she was dragginf her hind toes.  I turned her out and walked her stagger behind and virtually sit down before she lurched back up and cantered off across the field.  It was a BH weekend, so the vet came the next day.  He saw her trot up and did the classic neurological test - while the horse is walking, he pulled on her tail to the side, she staggered to the side - a normal horse would not do this.  He immediately sent her to Liphook.  They did a number of tests - a spinal tap to check for an infection and also neck x-rays.  They told me she had a narrowing on the 6th cervical vert.  They said I could go away and give her massive amounts of steroids and anti-bios, but in their opinion she would not recover and there was no operation available.  They wanted to do another test which meant knocking her out and injecting a die into the spinal cord to x-ray the dye.  They were worried that she would not be able to coordinate standing up after the op and would fall and break a leg.  I did not have the extra test because there was no point, they were completely convinced there was no fix for her.  I chose to have her pts there.  

You need to get your horse to a centre where a number of tests can be performed in safety.  The risk with a horse like yours, is that they may fall on you - or fall in a situation of which you have no control - and break a leg or a hip.  Do you really want to deal with that scenario ? 

I hope you get some answers soon.


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## Archie73 (9 May 2012)

I am so sorry. I wish I could offer some advice or experience. My first thought at the beginning of the thread was wobblers  However it was just that, a thought and not really drawn from first hand experience just yard observations. Best of luck to you and jazz. The only comfort I can offer is that I am sure you will and quite clearly are doing everything to get a prompt diagnosis. Your attitude seems very pro active and positive. Jazz is lucky to have you  Once again best wishes to you both. X


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## elizabeth1 (9 May 2012)

Archie73 said:



			I am so sorry. I wish I could offer some advice or experience. My first thought at the beginning of the thread was wobblers  However it was just that, a thought and not really drawn from first hand experience just yard observations. Best of luck to you and jazz. The only comfort I can offer is that I am sure you will and quite clearly are doing everything to get a prompt diagnosis. Your attitude seems very pro active and positive. Jazz is lucky to have you  Once again best wishes to you both. X
		
Click to expand...


as above. I do hope you find a diagnosis quickly and you are very much in my thoughts.


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## ihatework (9 May 2012)

Sorry to hear this 

Is there a reason for delaying neck x-rays?
I know you are concerned about travelling and that the portable machines aren't as powerful, but surely some portable xrays of the neck are better than nothing short term? I know My vet would have this done the same day if needed.


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## cptrayes (9 May 2012)

Thanks Big Red. The rapid deterioration that you experienced is not happening with mine. He has been dragging his toes for around six weeks now, and has done it on and off for four years, which we assumed was his very obvious spavins. Although we clearly had a crisis on Saturday, he is actually getting better right now, in terms of stability.

I know this disease is incurable and I also know that unless we can completely cure him that he will never be safe to ride.  He is huge, nearly 17 hands and very, very powerful. I have never been able to control him in anything other than a double bridle. If a horse like that could fall any time it moves its neck into a bad position, I can't see how I could ever sit on him again. 

I don't think that there will be any point in putting him in a lorry for the two hour drive to a hospital with a neuro specialist to confirm what we will already know unless he completely returns to normal, minus even the slightest toe-drag.  Then I would be prepared to make the journey in order to precisely pinpoint the abnormality and work out how we can stop it impinging on his spinal cord in future.  I think that possibility is currently as likely as my rocking horse strolling over here to watch what I am typing


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## cptrayes (9 May 2012)

ihatework said:



			Sorry to hear this 

Is there a reason for delaying neck x-rays?
I know you are concerned about travelling and that the portable machines aren't as powerful, but surely some portable xrays of the neck are better than nothing short term? I know My vet would have this done the same day if needed.
		
Click to expand...



I've asked the physio if she wants them brought forward, but she is happy that he is doing well and that there is no need, at the moment, to hassle the vet to reschedule his diary.  I could get any of the younger vets to do them, but I'd rather wait for the senior partner who's done the neuro course recently, even if it does look like Jazz fooled him about where the problem really lay.


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## cptrayes (9 May 2012)

Thankyou for your best wishes everyone.


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## Always Henesy (9 May 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Thanks Big Red. The rapid deterioration that you experienced is not happening with mine. He has been dragging his toes for around six weeks now, and has done it on and off for four years, which we assumed was his very obvious spavins. Although we clearly had a crisis on Saturday, he is actually getting better right now, in terms of stability.

I know this disease is incurable and I also know that unless we can completely cure him that he will never be safe to ride.  He is huge, nearly 17 hands and very, very powerful. I have never been able to control him in anything other than a double bridle. If a horse like that could fall any time it moves its neck into a bad position, I can't see how I could ever sit on him again. 

I don't think that there will be any point in putting him in a lorry for the two hour drive to a hospital with a neuro specialist to confirm what we will already know unless he completely returns to normal, minus even the slightest toe-drag.  Then I would be prepared to make the journey in order to precisely pinpoint the abnormality and work out how we can stop it impinging on his spinal cord in future.  I think that possibility is currently as likely as my rocking horse strolling over here to watch what I am typing 

Click to expand...

Well I think you are being incredibly pragmatic about this...

I agree with all you have posted here, although I do feel very sad for you and really hope that the outcome of all this is a good one.
I for one, would be elated to hear that my suspicions were incorrect in this case.
I will certainly look for your post when the xrays have been done.
Best wishes
xx


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## coss (9 May 2012)

Friday really can't come soon enough - great to hear updates. Really hope there is a positive outcome


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## Frozen Hoof Boots (9 May 2012)

Roll on the xrays in the hope you have an answer.  I did find my horse got more ataxic when bending.  His CVM was mid neck and it looked slightly swollen one side.  He did over the weeks push all his weight forward onto his forehand.  His neck and shoulders started to muscle differently and lost topline ans muscle over his back and bum.

Fingers x'd for you.  Hugs x


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## angelish (9 May 2012)

nothing to add other than i feel incredible sad for you and him and am keeping fingers crossed for a positive outcome


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## Scarlett (9 May 2012)

Again nothing constructive to add but just wanted to wish you good luck and I hope you get some answers, preferably positive, soon.


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## applecart14 (10 May 2012)

Ten year old fell in field onto neck, unable to lift neck. Was stabilised for five days box rest and drugs. Over a period of many months horses canter stride changed, started not lifting his back legs through jumps on the odd ocassion, started rubbing heels together.  In between all this time the horse was still competing BSJA BN and DISCO classes and was ready to move up to Newcomers.  However problems kept reocurring and he had three ataxia episodes.  Eventually realised more to this than just clumsiness and got vet out. Vet thought EHV as ataxia (lack of co-ordination in limbs is symptom).  This incorrect diagnosis took ages to find out it was an incorrect diagnosis all the while I was saying "its wobblers, I'm convinced its wobblers".  Eventually on my sheer determination and constant requesting my horse was referred to Liverpool Phillip Leverhulme.  Comprehensive xrays on neck, and gait analysis tests and nuero tests done, within two hours of arriving horse had to pts as no possible positive outcome.  horse classed as dangerous to handle due to ataxia, could fall on anyone at any time.  He had C4, C5 and C7 vetebra affected, and this was considered too much to help him.  It was so sad. He was only ten and my pride and joy.

Apologies for hugely quick reply but just off to work.  Email me if you want any other info.  I know a huge amount about wobblers but here is something for you to read in the meantime.  Please remember ataxia may not be due to compression in the spinal cord, it could be due to a lot of clover eaten in the field which can cause ataxia, some field spraying, plants eaten, etc, etc.

Here is the leaflet.http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/livestock/horses/facts/info_wobbler.htm


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## Sam_J (10 May 2012)

Nothing constructive to add I'm afraid, I just wanted to say how sorry I am to hear this.  I'll keep my fingers crossed for you and Jazz on Friday and will be looking for updates.


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## cptrayes (10 May 2012)

Thanks Applecart, the EHV test is being done but the vet said it's very unlikey to be that. The physio actually runs a rehab yard, has huge experience, and she definitely isolated it to the neck. I could see the abnormal bend and muscle usage myself. It is possible that he had an unseen accident to his neck, but I have found out that in large warmbloods, ten is a classic age for noticeable onset and I can look back with 20/20 hindsight and see stuff from the last 5 years that fits with hind end inco-ordination of a minor level.

GUG the topline is already going. I wonder too if it is responsible for a very slight dip that he developed behind his withers in the last few months. I've been altering his saddle to try to sort it out, but it now looks as if it was caused by a different way of using himself.

I will not allow the vets to allow him to continue to suffer in the pursuit of an unlikely cure. If a cure is not possible he cannot stay here on severe slopes, he would have to go to flat ground just to be able to stay on his feet. He is a nightmare companion horse, regularly leaving others beaten and bloodied and rugs ripped to shreds, among other difficult behaviour. Retirement is not a sensible option. 

If necessary, I will have him shot if my vet's professional rules or any other motive prevent him from doing the right thing for my horse. Your experience of dragging on is all too common 

He isn't good today, I am just hoping for a clear diagnosis from the xrays tomorrow.

Thankyou for all the support.





more:

Applecart I am very interested in the history of your horse, with competition carrying on and also with repeated recovery from episodes of ataxia. I have both the vet and the physio attempting to reassure me that he can be improved enough to be ridden again. It is admittedly my nature to look on the black side in order to be pleasantly surprised when things turn out well. But  I simply cannot see how anyone would take the chance of getting back on a huge moving warmblood who can only be controlled in a curb bit when at any time he could knuckle over or move his neck slightly wrong, and go down.  I have set a criteria for him that I will not ride him again unless every single tiny sign of ataxia goes, and that the moment it returns, should we get that far, he will be put down.


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## SusieT (10 May 2012)

So why is the physio getting their experience put above the vets here? This really is the realm of the vets, it may be he has missed something of course, but with ataxic horses it really is a case of giving them time (see Kerilli's horse is coming better with rest) and rest to see the outcome-there are no quick fixes or quick answers. They can come back, although if it is a cervical vert. malformation it is unlikely so that's why you really do need the xrays. If it's viral or soft tissue damage he may recover.  Discuss your physio's advice with your vet tomorrow and see what they think. Ataxic horses are considered extremely dangerous so your vet will be more likely to suggest pts than keep going as it is too much of a risk to have a hrose that could crash down on someone at any moment. Don't know why you're concerned your vet will not advise correctly-if so please get a second opinion as there has to be trust between client and vet.


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## fatpiggy (10 May 2012)

I do hope you get an answer to this. Even if it comes to the worst outcome, you will know that all was done that could be.  I had a very elderly pony in my care a few years ago and I left her absolutely fine in the evening and found her with back legs going in a different direction from her front ones the following morning. She wasn't in any obvious pain, was completely cheerful and made her crab-like way for her breakfast as normal, but watching her poor muscles shaking from the effort of holding her up was awful.  I buted her and phoned her owner advising him to call the vet immediately and that I was happy for her to be PTS if necessary, but I'm sorry to say she had to wait for another couple of weeks before that happened.  She did seem to improve but then her quarters would tilt right over again, to the other side.  

I subsequently found out that a mare who had been put in the field with them "hated little ponies and would go for them".  This mare thought my mare was her hearts desire and I suspect the pony had been lying down with my girl, and was attacked by the other mare, twisting herself in the process of getting up. She had never shown any sign of arthritis despite being in her 40s and could reach right around herself etc. Just my theory but a sad end for a lovely little character.


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## Ruth_Cymru (10 May 2012)

I've no personal experience to add, I just wanted to wish you and your boy well.  I really hope you get a conclusive answer and a positive outcome.


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## cptrayes (10 May 2012)

SusieT said:



			So why is the physio getting their experience put above the vets here?
		
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Because this physio takes referrals from a very wide area as boarders and has masses more experience of this condition than the Vet, who requested that I call her in. 

Susie thankyou for trying to help but I do not find your comments helpful. I would be grateful if you would stick to the topics where we are used to arguing on other threads.

I am not going to argue with you on here about what is the best course of action for a horse you have not seen and a Vet and physio who you do not know.


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## flintfootfilly (10 May 2012)

Just wanted to say that I think you are being very sensible and objective about decisions that may need to be made.

I hope the prognosis is more positive than you suspect, but whatever the outcome, I feel sure you will do your very best for your horse.

Will be thinking of you tomorrow.

Sarah x


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## soulfull (10 May 2012)

so sorry to hear this, I have for some reason only just seen your post.

I don't know anything about the condition your horse has but wanted to say that your thoughts that the dips behind the withers could be caused by a different way of going are EXACTLY what was happening to Micah with his PSD so I would say you hit the nail on the head with that thought.
I too kept changing saddle fit but it didn't help, I obviously know why now 

keeping everything crossed for you


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## SusieT (10 May 2012)

Your asking for advice-you're being given it. It's a public forum. People will reply to what they will.


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## cptrayes (10 May 2012)

SusieT said:



			Your asking for advice-you're being given it. It's a public forum. People will reply to what they will.
		
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And having read what you have written I have now made it clear to you that it is not helping me and I have made a personal request to you that you do not post again. If you ignore that personal request and continue to post on this thread that is entirely your right.


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## Bojangles (10 May 2012)

Keeping everything crossed for you both tommorrow.


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## Always Henesy (11 May 2012)

Thinking of you today.

Huge hugs and loads of support should you need it.


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## cptrayes (11 May 2012)

Thankyou AH, that's nice of you. I have to admit I'm in a terrible state


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## applecart14 (11 May 2012)

My horse was ridden during periods of ataxia but obviously not at the time of his three bad ataxia episodes where you only had to nudge him and he would stagger.  At the time of the very minor ataxia episodes it wasn't enough to make him dangerous to ride and we did not know that there was definetely a problem or even that he had ataxia as he wasn't outwardly drunken and staggering.  He was seen by a McTimoney chiro twice in the space of six months and she said he didn't have wobblers.  Because he was rubbing his back fetlocks together the farrier raised the inside of his off hind heels to prevent this but it made no difference.  Most of the time Rommy would do a very odd canter stride which threw me up and out of the saddle, it was not like a disunited canter it was more violent.  I would halt, rein back and go directly into canter and this would free up the neck, again at the time I didn't know he had wobblers, I was reassured by the physio/farrier and also a professional rider who I paid to ride in the collecting ring before my class and give him opinion.  The horse was still doing double clears in Discovery classes and he was happy and healthy other than his abnormal heel rubbing, and canter.

The whole thing took many months to come to the realisation that there was more to Rommy than met the eye and it was my constant digging for information and asking questions that I found the solution was to ask the vet for a referral.  Obviously the incorrect EHV diagnosis hampered this effort as he could not be transported off the yard until given the all clear.

I do hope you get your answers, even if it is bad news at least you will get a sense of relief in a way that you know the direction you must go with your horse.  Good luck hun x


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## Circe (11 May 2012)

OP, I just wanted to say that I'm thinking of you today,
I hope you get positive news.
Kx


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## claracanter (11 May 2012)

Have been following this thread and just wanted to say I am thinking of you. Everything crossed.


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## CBFan (11 May 2012)

claracanter said:



			Have been following this thread and just wanted to say I am thinking of you. Everything crossed.
		
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Ditto! This must be the most horrid time for you. My fingers are tightly crossed but I know you will do the right thing by your boy, whatever the outcome. xx


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## Frozen Hoof Boots (11 May 2012)

Fingers x'd for you x


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## rockyneddy (11 May 2012)

claracanter said:



			Have been following this thread and just wanted to say I am thinking of you. Everything crossed.
		
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ditto too , having similar problems but don't think they are neurological now, but pain relative but where who knows  hocks (spavin or back?)
he had shockwave on his back a week ago and was loads WORST - a bad reaction Once again good luck ((hugs))


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## cptrayes (11 May 2012)

He's a wobbler 

In many ways I am incredibly lucky. Other people with horses in this situation cannot get a definitive answer and they drag on for months or years.

Jazz is a classic late onset wobbler. He has a step narrowing of the spinal cord channel between neck vertebrae C3 and C4 exactly like the diagram that the physio drew for me. In addition, he appears to have some fairly serious fragmentation of C4, with 3 or 4 separate pieces clearly visible on the xray.

We will try and get him safe to ride, but if he does not come right in a few months then I will have him put down before next winter.

Life is not fair, but other people have it worse than me. I still have Radar, my hunter and Ace, a talented young dressage horse.

Thankyou everyone for your support. I am sorry for all of us that I could not give you a better outcome.


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## HazyXmas (11 May 2012)

I'm very sorry to read your latest post but as you say, at least you now know what your dealing with.

Good luck, i do hope that he can be safely ridden again at some point.


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## CBFan (11 May 2012)

I am so sorry! But like you say, at least you know now.

My 5 y/o boy has shivers. As yet, undiagnosed by vet but it is obvious and dare I say it, getting worse. What the future holds is unknown but I've just got to enjoy him while I have him... same goes for you. You'll know if / when enough is enough. They don't deserve this... Big hugs xxx


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## Sults (11 May 2012)

Am very sorry to hear about Jazz.

I have a wobbler too. After numerous inhand tests, x-rays and a mylogram my little mare was diagnosed at 4yrs old with narrowing at C6/C7. Out of 4 they graded her a 2 1/2 behind and 2 infront. 
I retired her there and then. I decided not to go for the op that is available.
Since then she has had a foal (who is rising 7 and going novice BE next month!) and she has lived out 24x7 for the last 6 years (she loves feeling like she is wild & free!). She is now 13.

Please keep us posted on how you manage Jazz, would be very interested and i really hope you find a good way of managing it for you and him.


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## Ruth_Cymru (11 May 2012)

I'm glad that you got a definitive answer, but really gutted for you and him that it wasn't something simpler.  I wish you all the best with him and please keep us updated.


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## Flame_ (11 May 2012)

Sorry to hear this OP. Terribly bad luck. I hope the vets can come up with some solutions for you.


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## Always Henesy (11 May 2012)

Aw I'm so sorry. 
I truly am so gutted for you.

I hate to put a dampener on things, but I am surprised that the vet has suggested trying to get him rideable again 
Henesy had late onset Wobblers in exactly the same place as yours. My vet told me there and then that I couldn't ride him ever again. It was just too dangerous. 
Please understand that I am not trying to put doom and gloom on things - apart from anything else it makes things very difficult from an insurance point of view. 

The worst part is not knowing - so at least you do know now what you are dealing with.

I wish you all the best.

More *hugs* in case you need them.


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## Meowy Catkin (11 May 2012)

I'm so very sorry, this must be so heartbreaking for you. I really hope that he improves, poor boy.


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## Frozen Hoof Boots (11 May 2012)

I'm so sorry hun cos yours has exactly same as mine same place as well.  I know how terrible and gutted u feel.  Did they grade him?  

Pls pm me if you want to talk.  I'm here to listen and help if I can. Hugs x


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## coss (11 May 2012)

so sorry to read this - as you say, at least you have an answer


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## cptrayes (11 May 2012)

Always Henesy said:



			My vet told me there and then that I couldn't ride him ever again. It was just too dangerous. 
Please understand that I am not trying to put doom and gloom on things - apart from anything else it makes things very difficult from an insurance point of view.
		
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I wish my vet would do the same AH. At the moment he is making "we can improve him" noises. I have had to make it very clear to him that he is a horse who can only be controlled in a curb bit and he is also very big (16.3 +) and that I am not prepared ever to get on his back again unless he presents no neurological symptoms of any kind, because of the danger of him falling with me on him while powering around the arena as he does. (did !) 

He cannot become a light hack even if he is fit enough to do it. I live on 1 in 4 hills, and apart from that he made it perfectly clear since he was 4 years old that he absolutely loathes hacking out.

He is not insured so thankfully there is no problem there. I can afford his treatment, so no issues there either as long as there is some point in the treatment. I can get the hunt to shoot him whenever I choose, I do not need the vet's permission. My expectation is that will probably happen before the winter, unless there is some kind of miracle in the meantime. And if he deteriorates, it will be sooner of course.

As it happens I am on holiday next week and he is going to the rehab yard for intensive therapy while I am away. I will assess at that point what difference the therapy has made and make plans for his future then.

Thanks for the condolences everyone, you are very kind.


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## CBFan (11 May 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I wish my vet would do the same AH. At the moment he is making "we can improve him" noises. I have had to make it very clear to him that he is a horse who can only be controlled in a curb bit and he is also very big (16.3 +) and that I am not prepared ever to get on his back again unless he presents no neurological symptoms of any kind, because of the danger of him falling with me on him while powering around the arena as he does. (did !) 

He cannot become a light hack even if he is fit enough to do it. I live on 1 in 4 hills, and apart from that he made it perfectly clear since he was 4 years old that he absolutely loathes hacking out.

He is not insured so thankfully there is no problem there. I can afford his treatment, so no issues there either as long as there is some point in the treatment. I can get the hunt to shoot him whenever I choose, I do not need the vet's permission. My expectation is that will probably happen before the winter, unless there is some kind of miracle in the meantime. And if he deteriorates, it will be sooner of course.

As it happens I am on holiday next week and he is going to the rehab yard for intensive therapy while I am away. I will assess at that point what difference the therapy has made and make plans for his future then.

Thanks for the condolences everyone, you are very kind.
		
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You are dealing with this in a very realistic and pragmatic way. Well done. Not many people are brave enough to do that and I think you are thinking of the horse's best interests as well as your own... I know I wouldn't like wobbling around all over the place, getting frustrated because i didn't know what my legs were doing... I'd  be screaming 'somebody shoot me now!!' 

Enjoy your break. Take care. And if you want to chat, we're here! x


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## Circe (11 May 2012)

So sorry to head your news, I had hoped it would be more positive for you. 
At least you know what you are dealing with, & you have a plan of action. What ever happens next, you've given your boy a fighting chance. 
Kx


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## Dab (11 May 2012)

I've been following the thread, and just wanted to say that i'm sorry to hear this news, but as you said at least you have a definative answer and a plan one way or the other.
May luck be on yours and Jazz' side.


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## Always Henesy (11 May 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I wish my vet would do the same AH. At the moment he is making "we can improve him" noises. I have had to make it very clear to him that he is a horse who can only be controlled in a curb bit and he is also very big (16.3 +) and that I am not prepared ever to get on his back again unless he presents no neurological symptoms of any kind, because of the danger of him falling with me on him while powering around the arena as he does. (did !) 

He cannot become a light hack even if he is fit enough to do it. I live on 1 in 4 hills, and apart from that he made it perfectly clear since he was 4 years old that he absolutely loathes hacking out.

He is not insured so thankfully there is no problem there. I can afford his treatment, so no issues there either as long as there is some point in the treatment. I can get the hunt to shoot him whenever I choose, I do not need the vet's permission. My expectation is that will probably happen before the winter, unless there is some kind of miracle in the meantime. And if he deteriorates, it will be sooner of course.

As it happens I am on holiday next week and he is going to the rehab yard for intensive therapy while I am away. I will assess at that point what difference the therapy has made and make plans for his future then.

Thanks for the condolences everyone, you are very kind.
		
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I know you will do right by your horse CPT and I also know that you are being very stoic, pragmatic, sensible and selfless. Your boy is lucky to have you.

The therapy sounds like a good plan - 

If/when you make the decision I will be right behind you offering my support. God knows how hard these things can be on the heart.


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## flintfootfilly (11 May 2012)

So sorry to hear the diagnosis, but well done for being so clear and objective about how you will make decisions for your boy.

If you are even vaguely wondering whether or not he'd be suitable for the op, then you could always try ringing Tim Phillips at Liphook, which certainly used to be the only place in the UK to do the "bagby basket" operation on wobblers.  I don't know whether other places do it now, but it was the place that was recommended to me when I had a potential wobbler 6 years ago.

From the scribbled notes I made at the time, I think the operation was about £5,000 then, and that there was about a 50/50 chance of success.  I was told that not all horses are suitable for the op (I seem to think it was a myelogram which would show whether they were suitable or not).  And definitely I was told that there is a greater chance of success the sooner it is done.

I don't know whether late onset wobblers has a different prognosis to other wobblers, but might be worth asking?

Whatever you decide, it sound like you have the best interests of your horse at heart.

Best wishes

Sarah


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## foxy1 (11 May 2012)

Really sorry to hear this.


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## Bojangles (11 May 2012)

I'm so sorry to hear this. Hugs. Try to enjoy your break. I know that will be hard for you all this worry.


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## cptrayes (11 May 2012)

flintfootfilly said:



			If you are even vaguely wondering whether or not he'd be suitable for the op, then you could always try ringing Tim Phillips at Liphook, which certainly used to be the only place in the UK to do the "bagby basket" operation on wobblers.  I don't know whether other places do it now, but it was the place that was recommended to me when I had a potential wobbler 6 years ago.
		
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Sarah thankyou but my vet told me today that Tim has retired and that no other vet in the country will do the operation because no-one believes in it. I think in any case that it is the degeneration of the vertrebra that is more serious than the narrowing and the ledge, and that is not reversible 

I have spoken to the physio, where he is going on Sunday, and she says that she is certain that she can help the narrowing and the step ledge, but that she has no confidence that she can improve his condition with the crumbling of the interior aspect of the vertebra. Basically, he has a load of bone chips floating about loose in the tube that his spinal cord runs through 

I think we all know where we are going (except him, bless him!) it's just a question of time to be sure we are doing the right thing before we do it.

It's a devastating change from a week ago when I had a horse  with a personality the size of a house, who was approaching Grand Prix movements. But I do console myself at times like this by reminding myself that others are far, far worse off than me. I have two other lovely horses. I have a wonderful supportive partner. Truly, things could be a lot worse overall than they are. Not for him I suppose, but he doesn't know that and I'm not going to tell him


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## Archie73 (11 May 2012)

Truely sorry for Jazz and you. 

Sasha


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## angelish (11 May 2012)

i to have been following this thread and was also hoping to see better news today 
so sorry its bad news


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## ester (11 May 2012)

CP I'm so sorry to read this


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## RutlandH2O (11 May 2012)

So, so sorry for you and Jazz. Your attitude and approach to this sad turn of events is to be  admired. Despite your heartache, you've really got your head screwed on tightly. Well done, you.


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## MissL (11 May 2012)

Ive been following this thread and Im so so sorry to hear your news, I know how heartbreaking this must be for you, and I agree with RutlandH20, you really do sound like youve got your head screwed on and have your boys best interest at heart. 

My mare had late onset wobblers &#61516; Im sorry I cant offer any good advice, other than (sorry for stating the obvious) please please please make sure anytime you are handling him you must have your fully charged mobile phone ON you, either in your pocket, hand, tucked in your jodhpurs, whatever, especially if youre on your own...might sound silly, but I speak from experience!! 

I really hope physio can help
I wish you all the best


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## criso (11 May 2012)

So so sorry to hear this, horses can be heartbreaking at times.


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## KatieLovesJames (12 May 2012)

So sorry to read this :-(


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## applecart14 (13 May 2012)

CBFan said:



			I know I wouldn't like wobbling around all over the place, getting frustrated because i didn't know what my legs were doing... I'd  be screaming 'somebody shoot me now!!'
		
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I agree with you.  That was the worse thing about Rommy's late onset wobblers - that he clearly didn't know where his limbs were (he had no proprioception) he also suffered from swinging his hind legs out wide (circumduction).  For a flight animal this must have caused him great stress.  To be honest if I were in the OP's shoes I think I would have him PTS now.  Think how the OP would feel if he went down in the field and was unable to rise and she didn't see him for hours and he'd been soaking wet and cold.  When the vet said there was a good chance of that happening that did it more for me than the thought of him falling on me.

Rommy's gap in the spinal column to allow the spinal cord through should have been 51mm.  In his case it was 17mm.  This is why he was graded 3 to 4.  I still think I did the right thing and wouldn't hesistate to have my current boy pts, in fact as soon as he was diagnosed to save all the suffering and heartache, both for him and me.

Sorry to be so blunt OP.  I know she has her horses best interests at heart.  I am sure she doesn't need any of us to tell you what to do.  xxxx


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## cptrayes (13 May 2012)

We have talked about it at length and if we do, we will always feel that we rushed into it so that we could get away on our holiday. We would never stop wondering if a week's physio might just have produced a miracle, or at least allowed him a few months in the field with his mates before the winter.

I am certain from looking at him that with the bute he is on he is not in pain. He is lying down and getting up again. He is stable on his feet if he doesn't move and can lock out and sleep standing up. He is circumducting (thanks for the word  ) but not to excess and as long as he can amble about slowly picking his way, he is not falling over or particularly unstable. That only happens when he turns tightly or too quickly. In himself, he is bright and interested in life.

As long as he is not in pain, he will enjoy a week of being massaged three times a day and fussed over by people, which he has always loved. I owe him that, at least.

Bearing mind that only 8 days ago he was doing extended trot and offering me piaffe and passage, it's not an easy decision to give up before we try some therapy. I can see why other people would choose otherwise, but I do think this is right for him, for me, and for my husband who also loves him. 

I am a realist. I know he will never be ridden again. I do not expect to bring him home. It would upset him pointlessly to bring him back to his old mates only to have him put down days later. But if he is fit enough to have a holiday before he dies, and if we think that would be the right thing for him and for us, then he can have it.


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## muff747 (13 May 2012)

Just found this thread today, didn't realise who.
Am shocked and sooo sorry to hear of your boys problems, no wonder you have been incognito for a while(
Sending you some {{{{hugs}}}} hopefully all these messages of support will help just a little.  
We can all see you have thought this out and done everything humanly possible for him, he truly has an especially caring and compassionate owner.
All my best wishes


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## Bubbles (13 May 2012)

Cptrayes, I've followed your blog for ages (friend of Tetley's from Oakington) and I'm so sorry to hear of Jazz's problems, especially when he's come so so far. You must be devastated. Much love x


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## Skippys Mum (13 May 2012)

So sorry to hear about Jazz.  I am sure you will make the right decision for both of you

Hugs xxx


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## cptrayes (13 May 2012)

Bloomin' marvellous, isn't it Bubbles? The second horse I train for six whole years and love with all my heart who didn't make it. Thankfully Tetley is still alive and having a whale of a time in Colorado as an expat    If feels so unfair   Jazz was the second horse I have ever said "this one is with me for life". Tetley was the first. I'm never going to say it again!

I am very relieved tonight. He isn't my responsibility now. He's in an enormous corner box at the physio's and he is going to have a week of total pampering.  He found the ramp a struggle but he travelled very well and he seemed to settle very quickly and tucked into a haynet. After what a headcase he's been all his life it's a relief to find out that he seems to just accept that his back legs are all wobbly. It doesn't actually seem to be bothering him mentally at all and I am pretty certain that he isn't any great amount of pain, if any at all. 

In a week's time we will review but I'm not expecting any miracles, and I think we would need one for him ever to recover.

Thanks again everyone for your support.


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## applecart14 (14 May 2012)

So very sorry x


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