# post ban hunting



## Peter7917 (28 December 2017)

This is absolutely not a hunting debate. I'm not interested in why you are for or why you are against. 

I am interested to hear from anyone who would not have hunted when it was legal, but who does now that there are no foxes being hunted. 

I'm just interested in the numbers of 'keep the ban' supporters who now go hunting.


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## GirlFriday (28 December 2017)

Peter7917 said:



			now that there are no foxes being hunted
		
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Problem with your survey is that very many people who take an interest on either side of the debate don't believe this^.


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## mini-eventer (28 December 2017)

I was never massively anti.  However I have been since the ban and would prefer we keep the ban... 


Sorry to hijack but has anyone been out since the ban and felt uncomfortable witnessing it being flouted?


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## Shay (28 December 2017)

Interesting question - but what is your point?

I have hunted pre and post ban.  I have lived in farming country side all my life and I absolutely support the control of foxes with a discriminate means which allows the strong and fit to thrive whilst removing the weak, old and ill.  Anyone who lives on a farm, or in the countryside at all, will know that foxes can be a pest where the population is unsustainable. There needs to be a means to reduce the population.  If you shoot, trap or poison them it is indiscriminate - the boldest and fittest actually die first as they are the ones who are most active in their hunting.   If you care at all about the wildlife you must support a cull system which targets those less able to survive.

As a rider - hunting post ban is more controlled.  Lines are more defined, jumps more deliberate and the line safer.  When my daughter was a child I was not entirely sure I would have allowed her to ride to hounds in the environment I did - it was less safe for the rider / horse.  But that was also a product of its (less H&S conscious ) time.  We rode in hats without chin straps then too!  I'm not sure that now - so many years post ban and in the very urbanized countryside we now have - we would ever go back to the type of following of the '70's when I grew up hunting.  You just could not cross land in that open manner - we need permission (absolutely rightly!) everywhere we go, roads and railways hem in our safe land.

If you are interested in the welfare of wildlife existing alongside livestock then you can only be in favour of a discriminate cull - whether that be by hounds or by another means if such could be found.  No-one wants wild animals trapped, shot without control or poisoned.  The fit need to be allowed to survive.

But wildlife control is absolutely not intertwined with riding - the ban has shown that.  Hunting - trail ,drag or blood hound -  is more popular now than it ever was.   If the ban has done anything for hunting it has freed that link.  Even pre ban, if you opposed the concept of fox population control you could drag hunt or blood hound.  For that matter you could stag hound , beagle or corse - "hunting" per se has nothing to do with foxes and never has had.  The fact (or not) of fox control simply has no link now with the concept of trail hunting.

So OP - your point is?


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## Kat (28 December 2017)

Feel more comfortable with bloodhounds. I was never particularly in favour of the ban but it is law now and I simply can't risk being associated with any illegal hunting.


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## Peter7917 (29 December 2017)

Someone I knuw said that everyone who hunts now are all pro fox hunting and I felt it was likely not the case. Perhaps I was wrong.


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## rabatsa (29 December 2017)

There has been a big debate on the local towns facebook page after the Bloodhounds had their boxing day meet there.  Many believe that they were going after foxes and not the clean boot.


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## Abi90 (29 December 2017)

rabatsa said:



			There has been a big debate on the local towns facebook page after the Bloodhounds had their boxing day meet there.  Many believe that they were going after foxes and not the clean boot.
		
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Ah this chestnut. My vegan friend informed me that she could guarantee that EVERY hunt (drag, trail, bloodhounds) kill AT LEAST 2 foxes every time they go out. I asked her to prove this as Bloodhounds were not bred to track foxes and she just said you have to respect my beliefs... not if they are completely wrong I dont.


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## Peter7917 (29 December 2017)

Abi90 said:



			Ah this chestnut. My vegan friend informed me that she could guarantee that EVERY hunt (drag, trail, bloodhounds) kill AT LEAST 2 foxes every time they go out. I asked her to prove this as Bloodhounds were not bred to track foxes and she just said &#8220;you have to respect my beliefs&#8221;... not if they are completely wrong I don&#8217;t.
		
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I went hunting in Ireland a few weeks back. They were actively hunting foxes and didn't manage to get one!!


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## popsdosh (29 December 2017)

Peter7917 said:



			I went hunting in Ireland a few weeks back. They were actively hunting foxes and didn't manage to get one!!
		
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Much the same as it was here! About twelve months back a bloodhound pack in the midlands was sabbed on a sunday,just goes to show the degree of understanding of what they are up to. More recently around this way a video was released by the sabs of what looked like illegal hunting they didnt know the police also had footage that clearly showed that the fox had turned back to the hounds when faced with a load of people wearing balclavas and blowing Hunting horns. The hunt are actively looking at a PP under the hunting act as they believe they have grounds. I am sorry but still a lot of the protesters have no interest in the welfare of the fox at all.
What I will say is that since the ban there has been extra support for hunts in the number of followers but more so in the less fashionable hunting countries. I have heard of one hunt ,possibly the most recognisable name that may not even exist next season and are giving up large areas that they hunt. They were the hunt everybody aspired to get out with and used to have huge fields across the shires ,now they have 19 (yes) subscribers.


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## ycbm (29 December 2017)

To answer your question. I hunted fox several times. I was very unhappy about what I saw, particularly cubbing, which I thought was utterly disgusting.  I then only hunted with a drag or bloodhound pack.

I would hunt with a fox pack if the law was not being abused, but  particularly midweek meets are regularly hunting fox in this area. 

So it's very difficult to answer the question how many people are hunting now who would not be if there wasn't a ban.


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## palo1 (29 December 2017)

Shay' s reply is good! I have been out with trail and drag hunts post-ban and with Fox hounds pre-ban. I was born and raised in the countryside in a farming community but have also lived as an urbanite for several years. I subscribe to animal welfare and environmental charities, am an intermittent vegetarian and probably a bit of a lefty in political terms!!  In these things I know I am not entirely alone on the hunting field. I haven't ever seen any illegal hunting post ban and go out regularly. However, I am aware of  foxes killed  many other ways - you can still legally kill a Fox in all manner of pretty unpleasant ways. It saddens me, as it does many other hunting people, to see healthy foxes and nursing vixens killed indiscriminately, where previously hounds acted much as a natural predator would have done: taking out weak, sick or older foxes with  the season end allowing vixens to birth and raise their young in peace.  Pre-ban, hunting was strongly connected to other elements of land management and farming as well as the wider rural economy and culture: maintenance of wooded areas, hedges, fallen stock collection, and of course the control of foxes.  People have always been muddled about the 'sport' element of hunting: that has never been about killing foxes (which has always been a paid huntsmans job - regardless of who is watching/following)  but about trying to keep up with a pack of fit hounds crossing the country.  That continues regardless of how, and by whom, and when foxes are killed.  In my experience, hunting people have huge respect and admiration for a wild fox and wish to see the fox population thrive in balance with farming. That seems an environmentally and welfare friendly aim. Personally, I am not so comfortable with a law that allows anyone to kill foxes however they like, other than with more than 2 dogs, at any time of year, with no responsibility to ensure a swift and inevitable despatch.  Having witnessed foxes killed pre-ban by hounds, I am certain that this death is definate, swift and in the manner it would be if foxes were predated as they evolved to be.  I have no wish to be involved in anything that breaks the law, no matter how stupid it might seem and post-ban I haven't felt that this is likely!  I know people still think foxes are killed by illegal hunting but that has been virtually impossible to prove and as well as the many loopholes in the law around this, foxes are still, without doubt, suffering from a variety of cruel deaths all year round by other means. I struggle with a welfare law that has encouraged that situation. I can still enjoy following a pack of hounds, following a trail across country!   I loathe the way in which some anti-hunt groups behave: some of their actions and attitudes are bordering on terrorism and do absolutely nothing to improve the welfare of animals. I know which side I  would rather stand up to defend...


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## AFB (29 December 2017)

Abi90 said:



			Ah this chestnut. My vegan friend informed me that she could guarantee that EVERY hunt (drag, trail, bloodhounds) kill AT LEAST 2 foxes every time they go out. I asked her to prove this as Bloodhounds were not bred to track foxes and she just said you have to respect my beliefs... not if they are completely wrong I dont.
		
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Nothing like being open minded!


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## Luci07 (29 December 2017)

The entire reason why I started hunting (pre ban) was due to meeting a bunch of sabs when out hacking. They were abusive and highly threatening despite the fact that I also had a child hacking with me. Previously I had been of the opinion that people who hunted were arrogant and rude and to be avoided. I researched hunting for myself and changed my opinion completely. The emphasis was very much on good manners when I went out with the Surrey Union and if we were given permission to ride across headland etc...no one deviated from the given path. I had chickens killed and left by foxes when growing up and my uncle is a farmer so I did have access to a broader view. So bizarrely, I actually think that had hunting been left to its own devices numbers would have greatly diminished. However, it has become a political football and more about perceptions than reality. A good friend of mine is very strongly anti, yet fully supports capital punishment (I don't!) so we beg to differ. Public opinion doesn't seem to really care that as a country, we are seeing a huge increase in dog fighting. In dogs being stolen to be used as bait or puppies illegally bred and smuggled/shipped into puppie farms. Now that is something I feel strongly about.


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## popsdosh (29 December 2017)

Luci07 said:



			The entire reason why I started hunting (pre ban) was due to meeting a bunch of sabs when out hacking. They were abusive and highly threatening despite the fact that I also had a child hacking with me. Previously I had been of the opinion that people who hunted were arrogant and rude and to be avoided. I researched hunting for myself and changed my opinion completely. The emphasis was very much on good manners when I went out with the Surrey Union and if we were given permission to ride across headland etc...no one deviated from the given path. I had chickens killed and left by foxes when growing up and my uncle is a farmer so I did have access to a broader view. So bizarrely, I actually think that had hunting been left to its own devices numbers would have greatly diminished. However, it has become a political football and more about perceptions than reality. A good friend of mine is very strongly anti, yet fully supports capital punishment (I don't!) so we beg to differ. Public opinion doesn't seem to really care that as a country, we are seeing a huge increase in dog fighting. In dogs being stolen to be used as bait or puppies illegally bred and smuggled/shipped into puppie farms. Now that is something I feel strongly about.
		
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Its just that those opposed to hunting dont wish to try and stop that happening as they would be dealing with different people.  They used to try to disrupt Hare coursing but have yet to see them trying to stop illegal Hare coursing funny that ,maybe it is a class thing after all.


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## ycbm (29 December 2017)

popsdosh said:



			Its just that those opposed to hunting dont wish to try and stop that happening as they would be dealing with different people.  They used to try to disrupt Hare coursing but have yet to see them trying to stop illegal Hare coursing funny that ,maybe it is a class thing after all.
		
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Or maybe it's that hare coursers don't meet predictably every Saturday within a relatively small area?

There are certainly sabs who see it as class warfare, but by no means all.


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## popsdosh (29 December 2017)

ycbm said:



			Or maybe it's that hare coursers don't meet predictably every Saturday within a relatively small area?

There are certainly sabs who see it as class warfare, but by no means all.
		
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More likely they value their safety !


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## planete (29 December 2017)

Why is it still called hunting when nothing should officially be hunted?  The image will never change unless we put a different spin on it.  It should be possible to defuse the situation all around by finding a new name with no bloodthirsty connotations and publicising the pure sport aspect of following an artificial trail on horseback. It would probably incense the die-hards who are still clinging to the good old traditions but might be a bit more realistic in the current climate.


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## Templebar (29 December 2017)

I entirely echo what Shay has written. However my own point to add to this would be that as a nation i find our animal welfare is very much on a downhill, particularly when concerning wildlife. Too add to what others have said about indiscriminate methods of killing of foxes are those that send foxes to the slaughter by thinking that they are doing good or just selfishly cleaning up.

Just lately (2 weeks) we have had two foxes killed, after standing up to members of my family while checking our few chickens and their numbers have gone from over 20 to just 10 now, including 2 cockerels. All our best layers gone, but also our pets, one of which was blind and you could call her to you. We firmly believe that these two foxes were urban foxes dumped by groups who like to clean up in the cities. We have a friend up the road with dairy cows who several times a month will find tame ones sleeping with the cows. They all end up the same way, it is just by what means. To the ones found in the shed or standing up to my family, its swiftly by shotgun or rifle. To those that are not seen its either the front of a vehicle or starved in a hedge.


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## palo1 (29 December 2017)

Yes, it is hugely sad and frustrating to see urban foxes dumped: it's not a myth! The poor things don't stand a chance one way or another: they are primarily scavengers unlike their wild cousins and many will take chickens.  They end up squashed, poisoned, shot, trapped, gassed etc...At least the rural foxes have the hunting and survival skills they need.  To answer the original question, I guess I would fall into the  anti the ban group though I would be furious if more parliamentary time was spent on the question of hunting - surely there are many more pressing issues, animal welfare included.


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## ycbm (29 December 2017)

Not a myth at all, round here the RSPCA dumped a lot of urban foxes in peak lambing season. My friend had five shot on three nights. We know of seven killed altogether, probably every single one that was released a week before from a town into hill farming country. They were huge and fearless of man, very different from our normal fox population.

Utter stupidity by the RSPCA, of all people!


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## ycbm (29 December 2017)

popsdosh said:



			More likely they value their safety !
		
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That too, and rightly so!  No-one around here will challenge an illegal courser without carrying a loaded gun.


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## huskydamage (29 December 2017)

I nievely thought the ban meant no one is hunting foxes anymore, but basically if you are with a fox hunt pack you are hunting foxes that's what they do ban or no ban.  I love hunting it's the best day out on a horse, but I will only go with registered drag and bloodhound packs. I have ridden with my local fox hunt pack when they are doing activities like summer pub rides, but I will not go on a fox hunt in the season. I just don't agree with it and I'd hate to be a hypocrite, especially as there are such great alternatives anyway.


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## ycbm (29 December 2017)

huskydamage said:



			I nievely thought the ban meant no one is hunting foxes anymore, but basically if you are with a fox hunt pack you are hunting foxes that's what they do ban or no ban.
		
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This isn't true of them all,  and it particularly isn't true of all Saturday meets which have bigger fields containing more people who would not want to hunt fox than a midweek meet, which is generally more highly populated by people who are happy to hunt fox. 

But there is still a question of 'within the law', because it is possible to hunt fox deliberately while still being 'within the law'.

The law was framed to allow for the fact that a pack of hounds might latch onto a fox scent and not be able to be called off. In drag hunting, scents laid are heavy, and hounds are trained to be called off fox scent if they do find it, which they often do. 

In trail hunting, some hunts are deliberately laying extremely weak scent, which allows the pack to 'accidentally' switch to live fox and be 'unable to be called off' and legally catch that fox and kill it. 

If you want to avoid hunting fox, then the key, from reading above, is to go with a hunt which advertises that it trail hunts, not with one which says that it hunts 'within the law'.


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## Abi90 (29 December 2017)

AFB said:



			Nothing like being open minded!
		
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Who? Me or the Vegan? I actually agree with her beliefs on fox hunting but I dont like it when people take massive offence (she had a proper tantrum because someone in our riding club had been out with a bloodhound pack) when they dont actually know all the facts


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## Follysmum (29 December 2017)

Tbh I don&#8217;t think its any different from before the ban!


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## Clodagh (29 December 2017)

ycbm said:



			That too, and rightly so!  No-one around here will challenge an illegal courser without carrying a loaded gun.
		
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No one would challenge a courser carrying a gun, you immediately lose your gun license. My OH goes after them, and I so wish he wouldn't. (Not with a gun, btw!).

In answer to the OP's question, I no longer hunt since the ban. I am not bothered if they hunt foxes or not but the amount of complete idiots who know nothing of the countryside and are just out to gallop around private land, on drill and crops, with no thought or even a polite acknowledgement to the landowner, completely ruined it for me. Hunting should be about hound work, or just go and compete in cross country or eventing.


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## Clodagh (29 December 2017)

palo1 said:



			To answer the original question, I guess I would fall into the  anti the ban group though I would be furious if more parliamentary time was spent on the question of hunting - surely there are many more pressing issues, animal welfare included.
		
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This, absolutely.


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## ycbm (29 December 2017)

No one would challenge a courser carrying a gun, you immediately lose your gun license.
		
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"I was out after rabbit and fox when I came across this bunch of illegal coursers, Officer."

The coursers are no more willing to meet the police than the gun holder, they won't be reporting it.  We must have more gung ho gun licence holders than you around here! One of them shot a farmer's dog in the farm it belonged to, same guy shot two dogs in their own back garden, another threatened a bunch of walkers. Both still got their licences.


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## palo1 (29 December 2017)

ycbm said:



			This isn't true of them all,  and it particularly isn't true of all Saturday meets which have bigger fields containing more people who would not want to hunt fox than a midweek meet, which is generally more highly populated by people who are happy to hunt fox. 

But there is still a question of 'within the law', because it is possible to hunt fox deliberately while still being 'within the law'.

The law was framed to allow for the fact that a pack of hounds might latch onto a fox scent and not be able to be called off. In drag hunting, scents laid are heavy, and hounds are trained to be called off fox scent if they do find it, which they often do. 

In trail hunting, some hunts are deliberately laying extremely weak scent, which allows the pack to 'accidentally' switch to live fox and be 'unable to be called off' and legally catch that fox and kill it. 

If you want to avoid hunting fox, then the key, from reading above, is to go with a hunt which advertises that it trail hunts, not with one which says that it hunts 'within the law'.
		
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Indeed. This doesn't make any difference, however, to the fact that it is, and always has been legal to dig foxes out and kill them with a couple of terriers, at any time of year, to gas, shoot, trap, poison, strangle, run over or even hug a Fox to death...'hunting within the law' means very many things and is as legal as selling tobacco, alcohol, legal highs, on-line gambling, intensive chicken farming, halal slaughter, unsustainable fish and chips...the list is endless depending on your viewpoint!!

 The thing that has always utterly bewildered me is the intensity of the anti fox hunting hatred and the media attention to something that only engages a very 
few people and very few animals. Hunting post ban has a legal framework like many things that you may or may not approve of and which at or may not be cruel, unhealthy or dangerous. We are lucky to live in a society where we have democracy and choice (to a degree...!) Class war only explains this in part, especially when you consider the hill pack/ex mining community hunts. I think for some folk, there is social dislocation and a genuine pleasure in vitriol and anti-social behaviour, nothing at all to do with animal welfare.


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## ycbm (29 December 2017)

The thing that has always utterly bewildered me is the intensity of the anti fox hunting hatred and the media attention to something that only engages a very
few people and very few animals
		
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My belief is that the level of animosity is to do with the exceptionally visible enjoyment of a sport which depends on chasing an animal to its death.

I'm bemused by the number of people who support hunting who are genuinely unable to see why that would upset anyone.


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## Sandstone1 (29 December 2017)

ycbm said:



			My belief is that the level of animosity is to do with the exceptionally visible enjoyment of a sport which depends on chasing an animal to its death.

I'm bemused by the number of people who support hunting who are genuinely unable to see why that would upset anyone.
		
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Some of them would probably argue that the fox enjoys it&#9786;


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## Clodagh (29 December 2017)

ycbm said:



			"I was out after rabbit and fox when I came across this bunch of illegal coursers, Officer."

.
		
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If, at any point, you point your gun at a person, or even handle it in a manner to be threatening you would lose your license. I am either amazed or impressed that in Derbyshire they don't mind, in Essex you would be in huge trouble.


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## ycbm (29 December 2017)

Clodagh said:



			If, at any point, you point your gun at a person, or even handle it in a manner to be threatening you would lose your license. I am either amazed or impressed that in Derbyshire they don't mind, in Essex you would be in huge trouble.
		
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All three incidents were in Cheshire. We were all amazed when the guy who threatened a driver parking a minibus on his driveway kept his licence.


But going back to the illegal coursers, they aren't going to report it, are they?


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## Clodagh (29 December 2017)

ycbm said:



			But going back to the illegal coursers, they aren't going to report it, are they?
		
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Probably not, but it would be a brave license holder who risked it! Once you have guns you can no longer express any anger, ever, or you are at risk of losing them.


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## Fiagai (29 December 2017)

Sandstone1 said:



			Some of them would probably argue that the fox enjoys it&#9786;
		
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That all very cosy but is about as verifiable as European bendy bananas ...


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## palo1 (29 December 2017)

The 'sport' of hunting though is keeping up with the hounds, watching them work together and individually and understanding the way hounds deal with scent, weather conditions and a variety of distractions. The killing of foxes was always a job for the huntsman and not a sport.  The huntsman was no different to any pest control officer. The field are taking the  'sport' of moving across the country to keep up with a moving target (huntsman and hounds). A good day could be had regardless of whether a kill had been made, though the huntsman may not have felt that way.


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## Nugget La Poneh (29 December 2017)

Clodagh said:



			....

 I am not bothered if they hunt foxes or not but the amount of complete idiots who know nothing of the countryside and are just out to gallop around private land, on drill and crops, with no thought or even a polite acknowledgement to the landowner, completely ruined it for me. Hunting should be about hound work, or just go and compete in cross country or eventing.
		
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There is a particular hunt near here that I see pictures and videos of and that has put me off joining them, despite them being the nearest one. At least with XC or eventing they'd be pulled up for dangerous riding.

I think there are more people now that 'hunt' than there would be had the ban not come into effect. I'm not sure that is necessarily a good thing, and round here I think it's made it more about class than it ever was.


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## palo1 (29 December 2017)

Nugget La Poneh said:



			There is a particular hunt near here that I see pictures and videos of and that has put me off joining them, despite them being the nearest one. At least with XC or eventing they'd be pulled up for dangerous riding.

I think there are more people now that 'hunt' than there would be had the ban not come into effect. I'm not sure that is necessarily a good thing, and round here I think it's made it more about class than it ever was.
		
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I am glad I have not had that experience.


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## ycbm (29 December 2017)

palo1 said:



			The 'sport' of hunting though is keeping up with the hounds, watching them work together and individually and understanding the way hounds deal with scent, weather conditions and a variety of distractions. The killing of foxes was always a job for the huntsman and not a sport.  The huntsman was no different to any pest control officer. The field are taking the  'sport' of moving across the country to keep up with a moving target (huntsman and hounds). A good day could be had regardless of whether a kill had been made, though the huntsman may not have felt that way.
		
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I find the cognitive dissonance in this post truly astounding.


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## palo1 (30 December 2017)

Oh dear! I can understand why you say this but not cognitive dissonance, just an attempt to be clear. Of course, the end result of the field following hounds, rather than directly pursuing a fox 'to its death' may be the same for the fox, but hunting, for the field has always been about following hounds. I was not trying to be disingenuous either. Fox hunting could never have existed without hounds, the idea of  bunch of riders trying to follow or catch a fox is, of course, ridiculous. I am entirely cognizant of the fact that whichever way you look at it, pre-ban, if you were hunting you were participating in an activity which may deliberately cause the death of a fox.


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## GermanyJo (30 December 2017)

Abi90 said:



			Ah this chestnut. My vegan friend informed me that she could guarantee that EVERY hunt (drag, trail, bloodhounds) kill AT LEAST 2 foxes every time they go out. I asked her to prove this as Bloodhounds were not bred to track foxes and she just said you have to respect my beliefs... not if they are completely wrong I dont.
		
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When it was legal they didn't get 2 a day!... I worked in the industry for 4 differents packs


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## ycbm (30 December 2017)

It's an amusing fact that before the ban the argument was that a ban was not necessary because so few got caught, and now the ban is in place and people want it lifted, they say that the fox population has suffered from not being controlled by fox hunting on horseback. Not necessarily the same people using each argument of course, but amusing all the same. 

I find the other argument - look how the number of people hunting has increased, we need to remove the ban because of the level of support - equally amusing. How about the alternative suggestion that the number of people hunting has increased because there was latent demand for trail hunting?


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## Nancykitt (30 December 2017)

Although I don't have any hard evidence,  it looks to me like there are more reports of sab activity than there were pre-ban and friends of mine have remarked on this too. I do know people who are put off hunting because they don't like confrontations and some of the hunts round here - including drag packs - are pestered by sabs quite regularly. 
It's been suggested that the sabs are more high-profile because, since the ban, they see themselves as some sort of guardians of the law, stopping illegal activity. When foxhunting was legal it was different because, however much the sabs disagreed with it and tried to disrupt it, the hunts were not breaking the law. 
I've never been 'live' hunting because I only became a horse owner after the ban and most of my hunting was with a bloodhound pack. I still got some awful abuse from people and most of it was along the lines of me being a posh, stuck-up snob from a very wealthy background. Actually I'm from a council estate in Manchester. The abuse did upset me but I try not to take it too personally.


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## Bernster (30 December 2017)

Interesting question. I try not to get into too much debate online as I don't think it's a helpful medium frankly.

The ban was a factor in my deciding to try hunting. I've been out with fox hound packs but I'd prefer to go drag hunting and tried that for the first time this year.  I suspect I will stick with drag hunting from now on.

Not having to worry at all about antis (apparently they haven't had have any issues) and the 'openness' of the meets was a nice change.


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