# No turnout horse very unhappy



## Flosii (14 February 2014)

I know there are probally plenty of you in the same situation but I am struggling and unsure what to do next.

Due to the wether we have been told by YO that we are not allowed to turn out apart from one hour (if the horse really needs it), ok I understand this and completely agree with the decision made. 

So I have had my boy in for three weeks now and have been riding him everyday to make sure he gets out of his box. However last night he was absolutly horrid to the point that I could not get on, now normally he is very placid and chilled gets on with his work. Now I think this is due to being in his box 24/7 apart from the hour I ride every week night I ride twice on a sat, small hack through village in the morning and lesson in afternoon, and try to take him out somewhere different for the last few weeks on a sunday.

Now my pony is 4 and loves to play in his field and every morning has a good old kick and jump around. I asked if I could turn him out for an hour this sat and was told that there is now no turn out at all!! (I did advise he was climbing the walls). I am also unable to let him loose in the outdoor school.

Can anyone give me any ideas because I am getting very stressed and upset that being in is turning the poor lad sour.


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## benson21 (14 February 2014)

Why can he not be loose in the school?
I know its really hard at the moment, my pony has not been turned out since before christmas, we onnly have the one field, so not one for winter, one for summer, so whatever state we get it in turning out stays with us throughout the year!


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## Flosii (14 February 2014)

Well a) due to the rain the school is a bog (but the only place to ride at night) and b) not allowed to turnout or lunge or loose school in school.

Yeah we have one paddock and my paddock is probally the best of the bunch because appart from gateway rest of it is fine, but that I feel is partly down to the way in which we have managed it throughout the year. (I share the paddock) But still blanket ban on whole yard


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## McCauley (14 February 2014)

Oh god... i can only sympathise with you Flosii,..it must be bloody hard work at the best of times, but especially with a youngster.

I can't suggest anything else, other than what you're already doing to be honest.  

Other than looking out for another yard that does offer AYT,whatever the weather, i don't think there's alot more you can do for your horse... 

Sorry you're in this situation (as are many others on here at the moment).


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## Flosii (14 February 2014)

Thanks McCauley..... te yard is AYT but due to so much rain this year we have had a ban!

It is not so much we cant turn out I am just petrified that I am going to ruin my lovely boy before we have even started! And to be told I was not even allowed my hour this morning just tipped me ove the edge!


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## TGM (14 February 2014)

Surely they can relax the rule about turnout in the school whilst grass turnout is shut?  I think it is unreasonable not to let you in those circumstances.  They don't actually need long out there - just a chance to have a good roll and a bit of a buck and a leap without the rider on board - even 15 minutes out in the school is better than nothing.  Why not speak to YO again and ask if that is possible now that grass turnout is so restricted.


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## Merrymoles (14 February 2014)

I, too, sympathise as I also have one who needs to be "doing" to remain good to handle and I found myself in the same situation when I had not had him long (due to snow and then floods in my case). When he is not able to work or go out, he gets stressy and bites at every opportunity.
We were not allowed to turn out or use the school and in the end I resorted to taking him for walks in hand a couple of times a day. I used a lunge line and wore a hat and gloves and he was horrid the first time but soon got into the swing of it and enjoyed the change of scenery. It kept both of us sane for a month. When it was dark, I walked him around the car park for half an hour or so.
I subsequently moved yards to one where they rarely have to stay in and then only by concensus and, touch wood, biting is now a thing of the past, although he can still pull some great "angry" faces.


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## Goldenstar (14 February 2014)

Cut out all hard food .
Feed hay only and soak it if necessary .
Don't get stressed its silly and does not help never stress over what you can't change .
Things to try 
A stable mirror 
A turnip to chew on 
A radio
You can give different low energy fibre sources things like oat straw chop , low calorie alfalfa / straw bloks or Timothy hay bloks ( can get them online from halleys ) I am using these ATM as we have resticted turnout .
Look at this as a exercise in teaching the horse to accept this life style many horses at some point in their lives must accept box rest look at this as a exercise in making that easier if it should ever happen.
Having horses with no turnout but exercised is hard work for the owner but it's mid Feb it won't be for long.
Exercising  twice a day and leading out in hand regularily ( even its just round the yard ) will help.


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## twiggy2 (14 February 2014)

bugs me when yards say all year turn out then close the fields-yes I know weather is extreme but mine are still out on yard i use, fields look a mess but will come back with rolling and harrowing when the time is right and then everyone will complain there is too much grass.

Personally I would move yards, being stabled 23 hrs per day is no different to a dog being crated for the same time, put shavings in a large crate and leave a dog in there for 23 hrs per day when the weather is bad and you will (rightly) be done for cruelty.

I like mine to live out and at the moment am having to meet in the middle with my mare only going out for 6-8hrs per day as there is so much field juggling going on I never know if she will have company or not, she is happy to turn out on her own if there is grass but if no company after about 6 hrs she starts to fence walk-this is a result of spending a year on a yard with restricted turn out as a youngster.

my mare is ridden or lunged every day due to not living out

advice above is good in the short term and should help him mentally as mauch time out of the stable as you can, grazing, walking out anything


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## WelshD (14 February 2014)

Like Goldenstar I have cut out all hard feed and am feeding hay blocks etc..

I rent my field so do have turnout but the ground is bad and grass is vanishing and the ponies are on very limited turnout

Try walking your pony in hand, I have had a couple of sessions walking the pony on a private lane by the light of my car headlights just to keep life a little more interesting


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## siennamum (14 February 2014)

twiggy2 said:



			bugs me when yards say all year turn out then close the fields-yes I know weather is extreme but mine are still out on yard i use, fields look a mess but will come back with rolling and harrowing when the time is right and then everyone will complain there is too much grass.

Personally I would move yards, being stabled 23 hrs per day is no different to a dog being crated for the same time, put shavings in a large crate and leave a dog in there for 23 hrs per day when the weather is bad and you will (rightly) be done for cruelty.

I like mine to live out and at the moment am having to meet in the middle with my mare only going out for 6-8hrs per day as there is so much field juggling going on I never know if she will have company or not, she is happy to turn out on her own if there is grass but if no company after about 6 hrs she starts to fence walk-this is a result of spending a year on a yard with restricted turn out as a youngster.

my mare is ridden or lunged every day due to not living out

advice above is good in the short term and should help him mentally as mauch time out of the stable as you can, grazing, walking out anything
		
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I do agree.
I have a couple of older horses who will happily stand in their stables all day but others who would go off their heads. I would have to find an area for them to stretch their legs in for an hour a day if turnout was impossible.
Definitely push to get turnout in the school till the fields are open again.


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## HoofPicker21 (14 February 2014)

I can totally sympathise but ours have had 0 turnout for around 5-6 weeks! I'm even moving my mare 150 miles (among other reasons) just to get some turnout!!


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## Pinkvboots (14 February 2014)

Agree with cutting out hard feed, just give him some chaff for now, can you not lunge in the school? If you can I would lunge before riding every time if you have too, failing that move him somewhere else although many of the livery yards I know have limited or no turnout at the moment round here.

I know how hard it is I have both of mine in as one cant go out and the other doesnt want to on his own, I rode him yesterday with him doing very little the day before, and he exploded on the drive as a van came past, he was a nightmare on my hack so when I got back I lunged him for 40 minutes, rode today and he was much better, our school is like a lake too but I still have to use it all our hacking is water logged can only walk most of it, at the moment its just a case of doing what you can.


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## Hetsmum (14 February 2014)

So sorry for your situation.  Mine would be explosive if in 24/7.  I am lucky that YO is not horsey and my field is relatively ok.......well it will recover put it that way!  Are there others at the yard in the same situation as you?  Could you club together and ask YO to have a 'trash paddock' (even if only the size of a school)  that can be trashed for the winter and that you would contribute to the cost of harrowing/seeding/rolling whatever in the spring?  With no end to the weather in sight you could be stuck with no TO for a while.  Only other suggestion (if you have transport) is to try to find some turnout that you can box to......even if only once a week.  I know that sounds impossible but my fields used to hack to a random field once a week, many years ago when they were on a yard with no turnout.  It belonged to a house with no horses who were happy for the grass to be 'cut' for them.  Good luck x


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## Dizzydancer (14 February 2014)

i feel for you- my boy is in and has been for past week not due to restricted turn out but mud fever. luckily he loves bein in and actually stays calmer in as doesn't stress- i am trying to lunge everyday or get friend to ride as currently got very fat ankle!

we were allowed turn out in school until wed when my horse flipped over and landed on my ankle due to a hole that a horse had dug while loose so we can lunge in there and ride.
i would be asking if you could lunge at the least if not turned out. 
some brilliant suggestions about stable boredom breakers. 
 also if your worried about ruining him while wild i would probably just give riding a break for a while!


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## Orangehorse (14 February 2014)

I feel your pain - and stress!  I took mine for a ride yesterday, the first for about 3 days and he is confined to the stable with small yard to walk around in, and he was a nightmare!  Stop nuts in playball, I thought.
What can you put in a playball that won't send him stupid?

The only "turnout" I have is a mud track, so apart from fresh air all mine have to eat is hay whether in or out.  The track to get there is also very stoney and neither has shoes, so mine goes "ow, ow" and he knows there is no grass when he gets there so keeps stopping "don't want to go there - I want to eat GRASS."  

Can you lunge so if he wants to buck and kick at least you won't be on top!


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## Amymay (14 February 2014)

What exactly is the YO's objection at this point in time to an hours turnout? Is it water logged fields or dangerous weather?


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## Mince Pie (14 February 2014)

Out of interest, twiggy2 and siennamum, what soil are you on?

Ours ha e basically been in since mid December, we're on heavy clay and a steep hill so too high a risk of serious injury. They're getting turned out in the school for a couple of hours in the morning and ridden every night. Luckily mine is the stoic sort and is still his normal, lovely self.


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## Flame_ (14 February 2014)

I wonder if the YO would be liable if people started having accidents due to ridiculously fresh horses? I'd kick off more about not being allowed to let the horses explode a bit in the school if no where else, from a safety POV. Otherwise I would leave, I can't be doing with yard rules that result in unnecessarily stressed and or dangerous horses.


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## dogatemysalad (14 February 2014)

You're managing pretty well OP, in getting your horse out and exercised. In addition to the advise given already, if the weather is not too bad, could you incorporate your hacking or schooling to teach him new things that make him think and give him something to mull over. 
Don't underestimate the benefits of intensive grooming or a massage with one of those cheapy hand held massagers to relax him. Carrot stretch exercises or basic physio stretches can help to relive tension particularly in an energetic stable bound young horse. Chuck a couple of slices of apple in his water backet or a few pony nuts in any empty paper feed sack. 
Think positive as your stress transfers itself to him, it is only for a short while (fingers crossed) and with your input, you can turn this into a positive in teaching him how to cope with future box rest or turnout restrictions. 

Hopefully, the weather will improve before too long and normal life for all of us will resume. And it won't be a moment too soon !


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## putasocinit (14 February 2014)

So lunge him i the school and let him have a good buck on the lunge. Ridiculous you cant turn out in the school. Yards really should sacrifice one field for winter, it is not healthy on horses, liveries are paying for services and they do understand, but fields do recover and if it is one field it will be fine by next winter if left over summer or allow liveries to turn out in a school.  Yes i know the old story liveries arent making money and field maintenance is so expensive but if you cant provide a service dont be in the business.  I pass fields everyday on the way t mine who cant be turned out in field, and there are horses out in fields that have been sacrificed, being fed hay which will seed anyway, i feel for you OP.


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## RunToEarth (14 February 2014)

twiggy2 said:



			bugs me when yards say all year turn out then close the fields-yes I know weather is extreme but mine are still out on yard i use, fields look a mess but will come back with rolling and harrowing when the time is right and then everyone will complain there is too much grass.

Personally I would move yards, being stabled 23 hrs per day is no different to a dog being crated for the same time, put shavings in a large crate and leave a dog in there for 23 hrs per day when the weather is bad and you will (rightly) be done for cruelty.

I like mine to live out and at the moment am having to meet in the middle with my mare only going out for 6-8hrs per day as there is so much field juggling going on I never know if she will have company or not, she is happy to turn out on her own if there is grass but if no company after about 6 hrs she starts to fence walk-this is a result of spending a year on a yard with restricted turn out as a youngster.

my mare is ridden or lunged every day due to not living out

advice above is good in the short term and should help him mentally as mauch time out of the stable as you can, grazing, walking out anything
		
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Whilst I agree it is not great having fields shut, as you say the weather is extreme.

I really feel for yard owners when they have to close fields - yes they are providing a service you are paying for, but if they don't close fields in such dire weather, there may be no grazing come summer - parts of this country are just completely under water at the moment, and if you open up schools for turnout you run the risk of the school getting trashed too.

We have enough to turn them out and let them trash the field - but if the hillsides were our only turnout they wouldn't have been out since early Jan - I know we are lucky and I really feel for others who are stuck. 

My friend boxed 25miles yesterday to pay for the hire of an indoor and turn hers into it for an hour - is there no chance of something like this just as a let up?


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## dogatemysalad (14 February 2014)

Broke_But_Happy said:



			Out of interest, twiggy2 and siennamum, what soil are you on?

Ours ha e basically been in since mid December, we're on heavy clay and a steep hill so too high a risk of serious injury. They're getting turned out in the school for a couple of hours in the morning and ridden every night. Luckily mine is the stoic sort and is still his normal, lovely self.
		
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We're on clay. While the YO has allowed turnout for mornings, it is mostly too risky to let them out on it. It has to be seriously bad for me not to turnout but most days much of the fields are a sticky, slippery bog.


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## Walrus (14 February 2014)

OP, I feel for you I really do. However, to all the people saying get tough with your YO or demand more - the fact is it's their yard and they make the rules. The weather is extreme and situations like this can't be helped sometimes. Our yard has had no field turnout since November however we're well set up for it with a sand turnout paddock they can have a leg stretch in, which also doubles as a lunge ring, a floodlit school and a horsewalker. I think at the moment it's just a case of gritting your teeth and getting through it, there have been some good suggestions above and regarding the riding - if you don't feel safe I would stop for a few weeks and just walk in hand. The alternative, if you know your horse and are feeling brave, would be to get on and immediately trot round and round the school in an attempt to run off some steam!


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## putasocinit (14 February 2014)

If i had a yard i would ask every livery to pay now a tenner to go towards the field maintenance needed for the sacrificed field, and so be it, and if liveries leave in the meantime, well i still have their tenner which cover the time their horse used the sacrificed field, i am sure all liveries would be willing to pay this.

The field mine were inlast year had a spring at the gate, the mud was 2ft deep, the other horses in the field used to pace the fence line and run around in a circle because it was turned out on its own and brought in on its own, owner wouldnt let others tirn it out when the rest went out, she left. My horses remained inthis field rest of winter and summer, in spring i bought a bag of seed and threw it where there was just mud, by the middle of summer we needed to let the cows in to graze down the grass there was so much, it really isnt that big a deal


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## saddlesore (14 February 2014)

Rather than risk ruining your youngster, personally I would move him- right out of the area if necessary- onto full grass livery somewhere and give him the rest of the winter as a holiday. Lets him chill out and saves you from worrying about it and potentially getting hurt. It's a very unique set of circumstances this year so unique solutions need to be thought of!


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## HoofPicker21 (14 February 2014)

saddlesore said:



			Rather than risk ruining your youngster, personally I would move him- right out of the area if necessary- onto full grass livery somewhere and give him the rest of the winter as a holiday. Lets him chill out and saves you from worrying about it and potentially getting hurt. It's a very unique set of circumstances this year so unique solutions need to be thought of!
		
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this is exactly what I am doing and mine's 7!


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## saddlesore (14 February 2014)

HoofPicker21 said:



			this is exactly what I am doing and mine's 7!
		
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It's definitely what I would do. Sack getting a serious injury trying to keep a horse sane through freak weather!


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## HoofPicker21 (14 February 2014)

saddlesore said:



			It's definitely what I would do. Sack getting a serious injury trying to keep a horse sane through freak weather!
		
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totally not worth it. Girl at my yard just got a broken arm hand walking her horse who's been in for 8 weeks and went bonkers in the wind!


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## ester (14 February 2014)

putasocinit - OP said they aren't allowed to lunge either. Feel for you OP but not further suggestions.


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## Goldenstar (14 February 2014)

It's a difficult one we use a sacrifice pasture for winter .
If you on clay soils fields do not recover .
Despite spending money and time on mine every year theres a big different between it and my other fields .
It's rested every year April till end of september and maintainence done .
It's is five /six acres and has four horses on it most livery yards don't have over an acre a horse to rest all summer so it's aviable in winter .
Mine looks like the Somme it's terrible it's borderline if they are safe in it this year ,and we are not in an area that's been one of the wettest .
I am using my school ( which I hate doing as its very bad for it ) and restricting turnout to a minimum tbh that not hard as they want to be in after an hour.
I have trained all of mine but one to accept stabling as a nice thing ( the summer is the time to do this ) the one that's not great is fine if you turn him out in the school first thing for a while.
Even with my five acres per horse it's not ideal.
So back to yards honestly I think that turnout pens with some sort of cheap surface is a must for livery yards I would love a big woodchip pen .
And a decent properly draining school.
These conditions are also the time when a walker can really be the most useful.
Of course things like this would but up livery costs but if winters are going to become warmer and wetter I think this will be the way things have to go YOers will have to plan for it better and liverys will have to pay for it through higher bills.


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## HoofPicker21 (14 February 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			It's a difficult one we use a sacrifice pasture for winter .
If you on clay soils fields do not recover .
Despite spending money and time on mine every year theres a big different between it and my other fields .
It's rested every year April till end of september and maintainence done .
It's is five /six acres and has four horses on it most livery yards don't have over an acre a horse to rest all summer so it's aviable in winter .
Mine looks like the Somme it's terrible it's borderline if they are safe in it this year ,and we are not in an area that's been one of the wettest .
I am using my school ( which I hate doing as its very bad for it ) and restricting turnout to a minimum tbh that not hard as they want to be in after an hour.
I have trained all of mine but one to accept stabling as a nice thing ( the summer is the time to do this ) the one that's not great is fine if you turn him out in the school first thing for a while.
Even with my five acres per horse it's not ideal.
So back to yards honestly I think that turnout pens with some sort of cheap surface is a must for livery yards I would love a big woodchip pen .
And a decent properly draining school.
These conditions are also the time when a walker can really be the most useful.
Of course things like this would but up livery costs but if winters are going to become warmer and wetter I think this will be the way things have to go YOers will have to plan for it better and liverys will have to pay for it through higher bills.
		
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we have woodchip turn outs but they are now bogs as they are not maintained so cant even use those...


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (14 February 2014)

to all of you saying/complaiing about not being able to lunge or loose school-imagine 10/15/20 horses ALL going ballistic on a daily basis-sure fire way to trash the arena and thats going to be tens of thousands to sort, are you all happy to stump up a few thousand towards it? and no doubt you would all complain if a horse damaged the membrane and then you couldnt ride whilst it was fixed..............

i dont allow any loose schooling at all,or lunging of over fresh horses as it just trashed the surface. I am lucky to have sandy soil and well drained paddocks but i still wouldnt sacrifice the arena for turnout if they were all in.

get on board and work them HARD every day, i wouldnt even try and hand walk etc.


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## Shysmum (14 February 2014)

I would push the point about lungeing - it really does work.  My last yard had very restricted turnout in winter rain, and if i didn't have time to ride (or the weather was too bad), I was so grateful to whoever invented lungeing. 

Hope you get this sorted.


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## stencilface (14 February 2014)

I would ditto rte suggestion, can you box to an indoor so it's safe for him to lunge or just let rip. I wouldn't move yards if everything else is ok, we really have had exceptional weather!

We have four on 12 acres, normally the end of January we shut off six acres so it can rest for April, but ATM we are leaving it open to give them more variety and shelter for every wind direction, even though they also have a field shelter. Ours is hilly too, boggy at the bottom, but the slopes and the tops are reasonable, I won't say dry (currently hammering it down!) but it's ok, two are out 24/7 anyway.


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## RunToEarth (14 February 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			to all of you saying/complaiing about not being able to lunge or loose school-imagine 10/15/20 horses ALL going ballistic on a daily basis-sure fire way to trash the arena and thats going to be tens of thousands to sort, are you all happy to stump up a few thousand towards it? and no doubt you would all complain if a horse damaged the membrane and then you couldnt ride whilst it was fixed..............

i dont allow any loose schooling at all,or lunging of over fresh horses as it just trashed the surface. I am lucky to have sandy soil and well drained paddocks but i still wouldnt sacrifice the arena for turnout if they were all in.

get on board and work them HARD every day, i wouldnt even try and hand walk etc.
		
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That was basically what I was trying to say in my post. In the bad flood of 2007 I used my parents sand school for my three as a turn out - it completely trashed it and tore the membrane in two different places - also trying to pick droppings out of an arena which has had a fresh horse teararsing around it is pretty impossible - I would not do that again. 

It is difficult and we are blessed with a walker at home which does make things a million times better but with these winds and clay ground fresh horses are going to end up breaking themselves and you if you're not careful. Very very tricky to find any solution in what most yard owners would say is completely unpredictable weather.


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## dogatemysalad (14 February 2014)

In theory working them hard everyday is the perfect solution but our ménage is sodden at the moment and could cause injury. Even at midday, it is often too dark to ride out on the roads near us, even though we can get to quieter lanes after a few hundred yards, the initial stretch is very dangerous in bad weather. 
 For 9 months of the year, our yard is pretty perfect but during the worst of the winter, keeping stable bound horses sane is a challenge. 
I do think it is time that bigger yards looked seriously at the management of horses in winter. Turnout areas, horse walkers,even temporary pens in open barns, or giving access to quiet routes for hacking to avoid main roads are possible solutions. Even enclosing the yard to allow some horses to have a leg stretch is an option. Just thinking creatively when money is tight, could make life a little better for those restricted to stables for weeks on end.


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## splashnutti1 (14 February 2014)

OP i totally can sympatise, i to have a 4 year old on restricted turnout who is turning into a monster, i am lucky in which he does get out but only onto my driveway so not much room to burn energy roll etc but at least he is out his box and can stretch his legs, i have been unable to exercise him last few weeks due to long hours at work, personal problems at home and no arena at all so i am glad he can at least get out or he would be climbing the walls 

 i am hoping to get on him at the weekend, think my brave pants will be needed lol!

hopefully not long till we see some improvement ( i hope!!)


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## PollyP99 (14 February 2014)

We are lucky, we are on clay and it is very wet and muddy especially in gate ways but it's farm owned and they allow turnout all year.  It did get trashed last year but came back fine.  Having grass coming late is a good thing for me so I'm not bothered that it will be well into May before it starts to look better, the joys of weight watching.  If I had to keep her in she wouldn't be getting 11 hours picking around for grass, I'd have to feed her hay ad lib to Stop her going nuts and she would ballon so I feel for the op.


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## Shysmum (14 February 2014)

Do some YO's  keep a field "to be trashed" in winter, so that horses can have an hour or so out each ?


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## Goldenstar (14 February 2014)

HoofPicker21 said:



			we have woodchip turn outs but they are now bogs as they are not maintained so cant even use those...
		
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Interesting , how did they build them , and what maintainence should they get .


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## HoofPicker21 (14 February 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			Interesting , how did they build them , and what maintainence should they get .
		
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they were built with hard core membrane and then wood chip. then with post and rail splitting them. In autumn it was evident that they needed digging out and fresh bark down as they had got very deep. they did 2 of them (full livs of course.) then decided it was too much work...


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## NellRosk (14 February 2014)

Please can I just highlight the risk of turning out in outdoor arenas (not sure if it's been mentioned haven't read all thread) but TWO horses this week at our yard have jumped out the arena. Could have ended up a lot worse. One slipped and got all 4 legs stuck under a car. Ripped the front grill off but luckily it was unharmed. The other caught a back hoof on the fence as it jumped out and landed on it's neck. Again got up unharmed but could have been very bad! So please be wary of letting fresh horses loose!


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## ester (14 February 2014)

Shysmum said:



			Do some YO's  keep a field "to be trashed" in winter, so that horses can have an hour or so out each ?
		
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yes some do, our local DIY has a couple which they take it in turns in, at an RS/livery down the road they have 3 that they take turns in for a bit in winter.


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## TGM (14 February 2014)

NellRosk said:



			Please can I just highlight the risk of turning out in outdoor arenas (not sure if it's been mentioned haven't read all thread) but TWO horses this week at our yard have jumped out the arena. Could have ended up a lot worse. One slipped and got all 4 legs stuck under a car. Ripped the front grill off but luckily it was unharmed. The other caught a back hoof on the fence as it jumped out and landed on it's neck. Again got up unharmed but could have been very bad! So please be wary of letting fresh horses loose!
		
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 Surely there is a risk of a horse jumping out whether it is turned out in a field or an arena?  Have you any idea what prompted the horses to jump out?  Was the fencing very low, or is the arena out of sight of other horses so they panicked and jumped out to find company?


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## MileAMinute (14 February 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			get on board and work them HARD every day, i wouldnt even try and hand walk etc.
		
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I wouldn't be working a 4yo 'hard'.


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## Merrymoles (14 February 2014)

yes, a yard that I was at a few years back had two trash paddocks for winter - scalpings in the gateways to prevent them becoming unusable.
They were on clay so never really recovered in summer but were useful for summer turnout for laminitis-prone Shetlands etc
The summer fields flooded in bad weather so using the trash paddocks all winter protected them for summer grazing.


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## NellRosk (14 February 2014)

TGM said:



			Surely there is a risk of a horse jumping out whether it is turned out in a field or an arena?  Have you any idea what prompted the horses to jump out?  Was the fencing very low, or is the arena out of sight of other horses so they panicked and jumped out to find company?
		
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I know I was actually pondering that!! I'm not sure, it's wooden fencing with a 5 bar wooden gate which both horses jumped out of. I think it might just be the excitement of being out for a bit and different because they're usually exercised there? I would like to loose school my mare over jumps but don't dare now in case she jumps out! It must happen at other places though, when I was taking my mare to be Irish Draught graded they said they would only hold the jump grading at places with indoor schools because the horses kept jumping out of outdoor ones!


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (14 February 2014)

MileAMinute said:



			I wouldn't be working a 4yo 'hard'.
		
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short term i would work it as hard as it needs to be worked in order to avoid injury to horse or handler caused by it being over fresh.

better a bit of puff and white sweat than a frantic dangerous idiot you cant even lead around.

in an ideal world sand pens and walkers would prevent the horses being cooped up but in countries where grazing is very limited, they do cope (its not ideal of course but they DO make it work)-we need to learn how to make it work for us too.

personally my plan would be to ride every day, twice at weekends, plus hand grazing and hand walking (i dont really like walkers that much personally, as think they stress joints-would rather hand walk in straight lines).

proper work though, not fannying round on the track in walk/trot/canter once each way as so many people i see seem to think is work!

then hand graze when they are a bit puffed.


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## TGM (14 February 2014)

I must say that we use our arena for short spells of turnout in wet weather without it getting trashed.  We were advised by the arena constructors that turning out in it was fine, but not to put hay out as that is what can often cause an arena to fail.  They have plenty of haylage in the stable beforehand so aren't hungry when they go out and are supervised at all times to ensure no digging or wood chewing goes on.  If they have a hooley it doesn't disturb the surface anymore than an active jumping session would and just needs raking over afterwards.  I can understand if owners were wanting to leave horses turned out in an arena for extended periods of time unsupervised or wanting to put hay out, but I don't think it is unreasonable for the OP to ask the YO if the horse can have 15 minutes loose in the school ONLY on the days when no turnout is allowed.  The OP should, of course, explain to the YO that the horse will be supervised and the arena raked and any droppings removed afterwards by the OP.  If the youngster has a mad moment and the OP comes off, it is probably going to end up having a wild hooly loose in the school anyway!


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (14 February 2014)

but if EVERYONE at the yard demands the same, 1x 5min hooley is actually more like 2 hours of hooley and that will totally destroy the surface, esp as we all know not every person will actually bother to pick up droppings etc.

too much of a risk for the YO.


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## putasocinit (14 February 2014)

Prince33sprkle - lets hope no one rides a fresh horse in your school then, or each of your liveries ride everyday in the school if thats how you feel. The average fresh horse doesnt damage schools, if anything a riderless hyped up horse could try to jump out after losing its rider.  It is the bored still turned out thats chewing the wooden fence and digging the hole in the sand that damages the school.  

It isnt healthy for animals to be cooped up, and liveries have to work, they dont have time to muck out, hand grass unless their working time allows, some horses can no longer be ridden and are becoming more unhealthy for being cooped up in boxes 24hrs a day. Does the livery owner suggest that the livery give them their vet bill because the horses arthritis has got worse for not moving around and being turned out, no, the livery just has to suck it up, so why should the repair of fields be thrown back in liveries faces, it really isnt a big deal, the earth does heal itself.

I still say if you cant manage the needs around having horses then dont take on the business.


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## Landcruiser (14 February 2014)

Seeing both sides here - no turnout on fields for weeks in our yard, and no turnout or loose schooling allowed in our sand arena. My lad would definitely damage the arena or himself if let loose to hoolley - he's flipped out on the lunge a couple of times  recently and lost his back end and gone down, and once he got loose and headed straight for the fence, god knows how he stopped before he hit it (he's not a jumper ).

So I'm having to ride or otherwise exercise every day come hell or high water - but at least we are allowed to lunge in the arena. Would your YO not make an exception on that, due to the lack of any TO? What about long reining? I'm essentially lunging figs. of 8s on the long reins with mine. Now that's a good workout (although if he's only 4 you won't want to do too much on circles, maybe).


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## RunToEarth (14 February 2014)

putasocinit said:



			I still say if you cant manage the needs around having horses then dont take on the business.
		
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I don't think you can apply that to this weather - it is shocking. No one expected this - there are many business owners, local authorities and government bodies who have not been meeting the needs of people these last few weeks. 

What about all of those yard owners without schools with closed turnout - what do you expect would happen then? What happens when the yard owner gets so much grief for closing the turnout that they open it and horses get injured, have to be PTS? 

Threads like this make me so glad we keep them at home with no liveries - trying to keep horses in this weather is hard enough without an entourage of moaning liveries - it is horrendous weather - there is no quick fix to that.


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## Wagtail (14 February 2014)

I think that the YO is being unreasonable under the circumstances. Yes, I understand why there should be no turnout. Yes I understand why she doesn't want horses loose in the school, but as there is no turnout, I feel this should be allowed. I have lived here ten years. I am a YO and have had to close the fields due to the weather and being on clay soil. But I have always allowed turnout, loose schooling and lunging in the arena. In ten years, I have not had any lasting damage done to the arena through these activities. One horse had to be banned from being turned out in it because she dug massive holes that took for ever to fill in. But she is the exception. I also have a dedicated sand turnout.

I really think that under the circumstances your YO should allow lungeing. Some horses can go a bit mad on the lunge and cut the surface up, but it is easily levelled again.


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## putasocinit (14 February 2014)

If these horses which are now jumping out of their skins had been allowed turnout for 30mins or lunged in the school or turned out in school for 30mins they wouldnt now be jumping out of their skin, so in essence when they are finally turned out in the fields they could run riot and leap over the field fence or gate, so possibly and accident today or in a months time, if it is going to happen it will happen.


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## ihatework (14 February 2014)

It's a bit of a nightmare all round really and I consider myself one of the lucky ones as our school doesn't flood and also my yard are still turning out most days.

I just couldn't be on a yard that stopped winter turnout and didn't have indoor/walker facilities to make up for it. A horse cannot be shut in a stable 24/7 it is just plain wrong, so if you are an owner that cannot physically be there to exercise your horse well every day you have my sympathies. It's tough and if this trend continues we will need to adapt the way we keep our horses - which most likely means good indoor facilities and pay the price accordingly if you don't live in an area with decent land available.


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## dogatemysalad (14 February 2014)

I don't know why but some yards seem to have less stressed horses generally. Currently none of the stabled horses on our 50 horse yard are showing any vices or over excitability when turned out in the school or ridden. Other large yards we've been on have had horrendous problems with horses jumping out of the ménages when turned out for an hour and the horses being so stressed that they were unsafe to ride.
 The only common factor I can think of, was that the more settled horses were on yards that usually did have herd turnout with large acreage as opposed to those offering small individual/pair paddocks. Perhaps the ones with large fields to roam were better able to cope when all were kept in.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (14 February 2014)

putasocinit said:



			Prince33sprkle - lets hope no one rides a fresh horse in your school then, or each of your liveries ride everyday in the school if thats how you feel. The average fresh horse doesnt damage schools, if anything a riderless hyped up horse could try to jump out after losing its rider.  It is the bored still turned out thats chewing the wooden fence and digging the hole in the sand that damages the school.  

It isnt healthy for animals to be cooped up, and liveries have to work, they dont have time to muck out, hand grass unless their working time allows, some horses can no longer be ridden and are becoming more unhealthy for being cooped up in boxes 24hrs a day. Does the livery owner suggest that the livery give them their vet bill because the horses arthritis has got worse for not moving around and being turned out, no, the livery just has to suck it up, so why should the repair of fields be thrown back in liveries faces, it really isnt a big deal, the earth does heal itself.

I still say if you cant manage the needs around having horses then dont take on the business.
		
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not really seeing your point? i dont allow riderless horses full stop so no riderless horse is going to go tear arsing round trashing the surface? if anyone falls off horse is caught in 2-5mins, but if every single person wants to loose school daily thats a lot more wear and tear-apply basic logic.

fortuunately its only me, NMT and lovely livery who treats it like her own,and would not want the surface ruined any more than me.

if you cant hand graze or hand walk there will be someone you can pay to do it whilst you are at work...... not great for the bank account but better for the horse AND the arena surface.

this winter is exceptional in terms of wet land so we have to make exceptional efforts to keep the horses happy, but IMO that doesnt include ruining the remaining facilities.


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## siennamum (14 February 2014)

Broke_But_Happy said:



			Out of interest, twiggy2 and siennamum, what soil are you on?

Ours ha e basically been in since mid December, we're on heavy clay and a steep hill so too high a risk of serious injury. They're getting turned out in the school for a couple of hours in the morning and ridden every night. Luckily mine is the stoic sort and is still his normal, lovely self.
		
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We have fields which are the head of a very deep valley on a limestone ridge, but deep heavy soil. It means we have extremely steep hills and springs & water running off all  the fields. They are sodden. 2 of the horses go out a few days a week, they are too greedy and fat to have a permanent big bale in the field. They also are happy in 24/7. Another 5 who are out when dry & in when persistently wet, they are out 24/7 a lot of the time with big bales and islands of hay to roll on & lay down in (see illustration). 2 TB sport horses are still out 24/7 and have been all Winter. They also have a big bale and have created a nice hay bed.

Ground is like a ploughed field round the hay but still green on the reverse side of the valley and they go off and canter round, play & graze as normal.

All of them charge round in deep mud & fingers crossed seem to be thriving.

It's not how everyone would want to keep horses but suits ours.

Fields will dry out in 3 days of dry weather, harrow them, roll them and come Spring I will be cursing the amount of grass we have, just as I do every year.


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## putasocinit (14 February 2014)

Mine are turned out in the outdoor aw school or the indoor sand school, depending on which school the yos are turned out in, so no need to pay anyone to hand walk, and i only start work at 2pm so have all morning to hand walk if i wanted to, or ride, or lunge, i was just thinking of those who are not that lucky.  So what would you do if your horse had an injury or the liveries horse and the vet said it needed to be lunged for 2 weeks before ridden exercise........  I take it you dont even jump in your school then in case the take off or landing gets a bit upturned.  

Thats why i dont buy expensive clothes, it would pain me to wear it and it got damaged, applying a bit of logic here, i think!!


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## Jericho (14 February 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			Cut out all hard food .
Feed hay only and soak it if necessary .
Don't get stressed its silly and does not help never stress over what you can't change .
Things to try 
A stable mirror 
A turnip to chew on 
A radio
You can give different low energy fibre sources things like oat straw chop , low calorie alfalfa / straw bloks or Timothy hay bloks ( can get them online from halleys ) I am using these ATM as we have resticted turnout .
Look at this as a exercise in teaching the horse to accept this life style many horses at some point in their lives must accept box rest look at this as a exercise in making that easier if it should ever happen.
Having horses with no turnout but exercised is hard work for the owner but it's mid Feb it won't be for long.
Exercising  twice a day and leading out in hand regularily ( even its just round the yard ) will help.
		
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good reply and all valuable advice, I would even just try and hand graze him somewhere if you can, he just needs to be out of his box as much you can manage, tie him outside whilst you do jobs, ask someone to walk him round, graze him whilst you do jobs and share the favour. And as others have said, just a five minute stretch and roll for them in the menage will help a little so try again with YO. It must be really really hard and I sympathise. Usually mine would much rather be out but they are standing by the gate most of the time now as I insist they go out (in at night, out during day) - they absolutely want to be in their stables.  It will get better soon and hopefully within the month.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (14 February 2014)

putasocinit said:



			Mine are turned out in the outdoor aw school or the indoor sand school, depending on which school the yos are turned out in, so no need to pay anyone to hand walk, and i only start work at 2pm so have all morning to hand walk if i wanted to, or ride, or lunge, i was just thinking of those who are not that lucky.  So what would you do if your horse had an injury or the liveries horse and the vet said it needed to be lunged for 2 weeks before ridden exercise........  I take it you dont even jump in your school then in case the take off or landing gets a bit upturned.  

Thats why i dont buy expensive clothes, it would pain me to wear it and it got damaged, applying a bit of logic here, i think!!
		
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as a one off or course i would allow controlled lunging for rehab...... as a regular winter theme of loose horses charging around like idiots-no effing way!

i should clarify i do allow controlled lunging anyway, but not lunging to let off steam ie spinning round in demented circles, and no loose schooling at all unless it was for medical reasons (but cant actually think of one).

im all for buy it/use it but would not allow people to destroy thouands of pounds of work for the sake of people getting on top and working in a controlled manner.


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## nikkimariet (14 February 2014)

putasocinit said:



			I take it you dont even jump in your school then in case the take off or landing gets a bit upturned.
		
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Lol we used to showjump so a slight moot point.

FTR, Fig and livery pony jump and all of them do pole work. They just don't go hooning round, creating dips and ruts and generally trashing the surface.


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## stencilface (14 February 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			not really seeing your point? i dont allow riderless horses full stop so no riderless horse is going to go tear arsing round trashing the surface?
		
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I don't know if I'm going mental or not, but I'm pretty sure you've posted pics of your horses loose in the school before, and getting up to various antics?


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## RunToEarth (14 February 2014)

stencilface said:



			I don't know if I'm going mental or not, but I'm pretty sure you've posted pics of your horses loose in the school before, and getting up to various antics?
		
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There will of course be a difference between turning a horse out loose for ten minutes after being worked hard/turned out regularly, and turning out a horse who has been stabled for extended periods of time and is as fresh as unicorn shyte.


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## nikkimariet (14 February 2014)

stencilface said:



			I don't know if I'm going mental or not, but I'm pretty sure you've posted pics of your horses loose in the school before, and getting up to various antics?
		
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Yep and we haven't attempted it again since (for that very reason)!!!!

Made a right mess of the school and Fig had fat legs the next day.

Not to mention Bruce nearly jumped out!


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## RunToEarth (14 February 2014)

To be fair - there isn't really a solution is there? 

Arenas are expensive, they are inevitably more expensive to the person who has paid thousands of pounds to have them installed, and less expensive to the person who pays their livery bill and expects to use them. 

If you have a yard of 20 horses and one arena, you are not going to get away with allowing arena turn out without causing a fair bit of damage, and at the least you are not going to be able to ride AND turn out in it, so I suppose the logical thing for the YO is to decide one or the other, and usually you have more control of the horse if you are sat on it doing something constructive rather than yelling at it spinning about in small circles.


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## stencilface (14 February 2014)

nikkimariet said:



			Yep and we haven't attempted it again since (for that very reason)!!!!

Made a right mess of the school and Fig had fat legs the next day.

Not to mention Bruce nearly jumped out!
		
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So at least I wasn't going nuts!

I think in some replies in that case you are both a little unfair, you've tried it and not liked the results and it didn't work for you so to come across as if free schooling is a stupid, idiotic idea is a bit harsh. If my horse was stuck in for a week and I let him 'rip' in an arena, the most you'd get is one lap and a few bucks :rolleyes3: So I think for most hacking types, providing they're not fed up to the eyeballs a leg stretch in an arena is more than reasonable. Yes, highly fit, strung up competition horses might go into orbit, but the vast majority of horses kept in this country are not of that variety. 

And at least if the horse is at liberty it won't wear a trench on the outside of the arena like people do when they 'school' their horses.


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## Goldenstar (14 February 2014)

RTE has a good point, four horses use my school .
And I manage it's care it cost a lot of money and we supervise the horses if they are loose and any digging and we stop them .
Would I want say twenty horses a day in the school playing and digging holes unsupervised by the person who had part with the cash to build it , no I don't think I would .


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## justabob (14 February 2014)

Why don't you just ride your horses if turn out is not available? If I was lucky enough to have a school that cost me £30,00, I would also be very precious about it! My horse has had no turnout since christmas as we want the fields to be usable in the spring when they want to be out. It is winter, and an exceptional one at that, even the sheep are making a mess, let alone 3 horses charging about. Leading out in hand is to me one of the most dangerous occupations you can do. Put a saddle on and RIDE them, that when all said and done is why you have them.


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## ChesnutsRoasting (14 February 2014)

I feel for you OP. It's just another example of a greedy yard owner - too many horses and not enough land. When did it become acceptable for horses to have no 'free-time'? Horse walkers, lungeing, ridden/in hand work cannot replace freedom in the field - my paddocks would have to be literally under a foot of water to prevent me from turning out.  My advice - put the word out that you're looking for a new yard with enough land for all year turnout and not a postage stamp sized paddock.


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## Goldenstar (14 February 2014)

We would have to know how much the YOer is charging to assess if they are greedy knowing how much it costs for me maintain my own yard I am shocked how cheap most livery is.


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## Follysmum (14 February 2014)

There is no way I could keep mine locked up like this. I would be looking for a new yard or field.  Limited turnout out or every other day in is acceptable but not everyday, especially for a young horse that is obviously not happy being kept like this.


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## ChesnutsRoasting (14 February 2014)

The fact they are charging for all year turnout and not providing it says enough for me.


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## justabob (14 February 2014)

blazingsaddles said:



			The fact they are charging for all year turnout and not providing it says enough for me.
		
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Has it not occured to you that this is extreme weather?


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## ChesnutsRoasting (14 February 2014)

Don't be facetious. It's been raining all week here and tonight we've got gales.


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## MagicMelon (14 February 2014)

I'd move yards. Dont see what else you can do if the YO demands the horses stay in. I personally could never put up with that. Horses need daily turnout at least (even if that is a bog).


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## justabob (14 February 2014)

blazingsaddles said:



			Don't be facetious. It's been raining all week here and tonight we've got gales.
		
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Exactly. Poor you, but you are not alone.


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## MagicMelon (14 February 2014)

justabob said:



			Has it not occured to you that this is extreme weather?
		
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It doesnt sounds like OP's yard is flooded so obviously isnt in one of those affected places which of course would change things (and is extreme in those places). We had a horrendous winter 2 winters ago where we had deep snow solidly for 3 months with down to -19 degrees, that was pretty extreme for us - yet my horses still lived out 24/7...


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## justabob (14 February 2014)

MagicMelon said:



			I'd move yards. Dont see what else you can do if the YO demands the horses stay in. I personally could never put up with that. Horses need daily turnout at least (even if that is a bog).
		
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No they don't, owners want/need daily turnout. It is unexceptable to expect to be able to have turnout in these conditions. It is only for a few weeks until all these storms stop. Horses will come to no harm and if you ride them and give them some work, they don't need turn out.


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## ChesnutsRoasting (14 February 2014)

justabob said:



			Exactly. Poor you, but you are not alone.
		
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But I'm still managing to turn out... Hmmm.....


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## MotherOfChickens (14 February 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			We would have to know how much the YOer is charging to assess if they are greedy knowing how much it costs for me maintain my own yard I am shocked how cheap most livery is.
		
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^^ this.


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## Flame_ (14 February 2014)

I've been on my livery yard (21 boxes) ten years and we've always been able to let the horses have a roll and a run in the school if the fields aren't usable, and have been able to on other yards in the past. The only damage in those ten years has been due to us always lungeing in the same place. Next to go would logically be the outer riding track or the landing spot where jumps tend to get set up across from E and B. IME loose horses moving around randomly doesn't do any harm, as I would expect of a decent horse arena getting use, but you do need someone to keep an eye out to make sure they don't dig holes.


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## ChesnutsRoasting (14 February 2014)

justabob said:



			No they don't, owners want/need daily turnout. It is unexceptable to expect to be able to have turnout in these conditions. It is only for a few weeks until all these storms stop. Horses will come to no harm and if you ride them and give them some work, they don't need turn out.
		
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Incorrect. The OP has stated he was "absolutely horrid". I could go on but quite honestly you're boring me.


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## L&M (14 February 2014)

By not allowing t/o the YO may also lose financially if forage is included - more stabling, more forage required.....

I am so glad I don't do livery anymore as would be tearing my hair out....

And for those that say y/o's are greedy, you try runnning a yard and keeping every livery happy - from experience it just isn't possible!


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## justabob (14 February 2014)

MagicMelon said:



			It doesnt sounds like OP's yard is flooded so obviously isnt in one of those affected places which of course would change things (and is extreme in those places). We had a horrendous winter 2 winters ago where we had deep snow solidly for 3 months with down to -19 degrees, that was pretty extreme for us - yet my horses still lived out 24/7...
		
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Snow is not a problem, wet and windy is far worse. It also depends on the breed of horse, my TB will be happy to be turned out in the conditions you had 2 winters ago for an hour or 2. He does not want to go out in this weather we are having this winter.


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## justabob (14 February 2014)

blazingsaddles said:



			Incorrect. The OP has stated he was "absolutely horrid". I could go on but quite honestly you're boring me.
		
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You are irritating me.


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## Amymay (14 February 2014)

blazingsaddles said:



			But I'm still managing to turn out... Hmmm.....
		
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I'm not sure it's simply a case of 'still managing to turn out... Hmmm...' More a case of you're happy to (whatever your conditions might be).

Whilst I'd not be happy with being told I couldn't turnout - given the current weather conditions there are any number of reasons why that might be the case.

I'm not sure there's any reason for smugness under the circumstances.


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## Follysmum (14 February 2014)

they don't need turn out


 OP horse is obviously not happy so turnout is needed.


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## Goldenstar (14 February 2014)

But there is no turnout , 
At some point OPs horse may have to be stabled 24/7 if he's injured he might as well learn now .


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## MotherOfChickens (14 February 2014)

the problem with lunging is that not many people do it well-so you end up with damage. I'm not sure why people can't lunge using the whole of the arena with lots of changes of rein, circles in between etc. Instead you get 20 people lunging on the same 15m circle at high speed.
YOs are going to have to start thinking about having all weather turnout areas for winter though-for their own sanity! I do understand not having the fields trashed as I have my own but horses do need to get out and buck/stretch. Owners need to step up to the plate as well, its not icy -get your horses out, spend more time, make the effort. I have one older pony and one unbroken which I am hand walking-if I could ride them I would be! Sometimes the only place I can turn them out is my drive (which is long and has verges but still). And yes, I work and have a 90min commute-winter is just harder work.

and all horses should learn how to be in-in case they ever need box rest.


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## Shysmum (14 February 2014)

I think if I was a YO i would go with Trash Field idea. Horses graze for up to 18 hours a day, and travel 30 plus miles a day in the wild - that is how they are built and designed.


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## nikkimariet (14 February 2014)

stencilface said:



			for you so to come across as if free schooling is a stupid, idiotic idea is a bit harsh.
		
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I don't think I've said, or have insinuated anything of the sort. 

Actually, I don't think free schooling is a stupid or idiotic idea. Horses for courses. Some like it, some don't. Some go ape, some don't. Personally (with my horses in mind and also my facilities), I don't think that regular free schooling (or lunging for that matter) holds any benefit in terms of joints/stress and more topically, the maintenance of what is essentially a very expensive sand pit.

There is a huge difference between 1 or 2 or even 3 horses having a hoolie round on (in this example) a well maintained surface once or twice a year, and an entire yard wanting to let their horses into the school for a play and (in this instance of prolonged horrid weather and no turnout) regularly. And due to aforementioned weather, surface is likely to be boggy (or in a delicate state in any case) potentially promoting less opportunity for stress busting/exercise and more opportunity for injury/surface trashing.


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## putasocinit (14 February 2014)

We have over 20 2 and 3 yo tbs roughed off for winter, turned out in 4 acre fields with no rugs, get fed haylage in field on the ground, the gate ways are awful the field is wet but they can survive, and we will still use those same fields this summer.

Folk are just getting cheesed off and you cant blame them. Some yo are happy for their horses not to be turned out, it suits them easier to keep clean, but others need to go out, and no this is not germany and other such places that dont turn out, this the uk where horses are turned out.  Liverya prices include stable and grazing, i havent met a livery yet who have been refunded for non use of grazing to cover the extra hay they are needing and bedding.  Yos need to work with their liveries and not be one sided, we need each other


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## ChesnutsRoasting (14 February 2014)

amymay said:



			I'm not sure it's simply a case of 'still managing to turn out... Hmmm...' More a case of you're happy to (whatever your conditions might be).

Whilst I'd not be happy with being told I couldn't turnout - given the current weather conditions there are any number of reasons why that might be the case.

I'm not sure there's any reason for smugness under the circumstances.
		
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If I was smug I'd be telling you I've got hundreds of acres for my horse to roam, rain has been minimal and I'm alright Jack. As it is the rain hasn't stopped for weeks, my winter paddock is trashed but I am still managing to turnout. Not for my sake, not for the paddocks sake but for my horses sake.


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## ChesnutsRoasting (14 February 2014)

Sidney said:



			By not allowing t/o the YO may also lose financially if forage is included - more stabling, more forage required.....

I am so glad I don't do livery anymore as would be tearing my hair out....



And for those that say y/o's are greedy, you try runnning a yard and keeping every livery happy - from experience it just isn't possible!
		
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You're right. If all year turnout was stated in the contract but come winter my horse was kept like a bunny rabbit, then no, I wouldn't be happy & would look elsewhere for livery.


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## Hippona (14 February 2014)

blazingsaddles said:



			If I was smug I'd be telling you I've got hundreds of acres for my horse to roam, rain has been minimal and I'm alright Jack. As it is the rain hasn't stopped for weeks, my winter paddock is trashed but I am still managing to turnout. Not for my sake, not for the paddocks sake but for my horses sake.
		
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Ditto.
Mine are out for 12 hours a day....In the trash paddock with hay. It's only about the size of a manege but it's better than being in.
I've only got 2 acres in total and the rest has been rested since December and its in really good nick.


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## MagicMelon (14 February 2014)

justabob said:



			No they don't, owners want/need daily turnout. It is unexceptable to expect to be able to have turnout in these conditions. It is only for a few weeks until all these storms stop. Horses will come to no harm and if you ride them and give them some work, they don't need turn out.
		
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I totally disagree with you. Turnout is a horses basic need. They are designed to move about and roam, being kept in a very small box permanently is proven to be bad for them physically as well as mentally. I dont think many people would find it acceptable to do this to a dog or a cat, so I find it very worrying that so many people think its ok with a horse... bizarre.  

There is no "smugness" in those of us who give our horses turnout. This is what most of us have strived for and ensured happened. I guess its simply that some people have different priorities.

OP's horse is clearly showing how unhappy he is, and some of you seem to have the attitude of "suck it up" and that its "good" for him to get used to it in case he ever has to be in through injury (which may never happen...).  Weird!


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## RunToEarth (14 February 2014)

MagicMelon said:



			I totally disagree with you. Turnout is a horses basic need. They are designed to move about and roam, being kept in a very small box permanently is proven to be bad for them physically as well as mentally. I dont think many people would find it acceptable to do this to a dog or a cat, so I find it very worrying that so many people think its ok with a horse... bizarre.  

There is no "smugness" in those of us who give our horses turnout. This is what most of us have strived for and ensured happened. I guess its simply that some people have different priorities.

OP's horse is clearly showing how unhappy he is, and some of you seem to have the attitude of "suck it up" and that its "good" for him to get used to it in case he ever has to be in through injury (which may never happen...).  Weird!
		
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In that case the only way to guarantee you are delivering what your horse needs is to own/rent your own land. I sometimes wonder whether liveries actually understand what land management entails. 

Me? I'm just tanking my lucky stars I am not this poor poor chap. 
http://www.itv.com/news/west/update/2014-02-12/we-join-farmer-on-his-return-home/


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## MotherOfChickens (14 February 2014)

MagicMelon said:



			I totally disagree with you. Turnout is a horses basic need. They are designed to move about and roam, being kept in a very small box permanently is proven to be bad for them physically as well as mentally. I dont think many people would find it acceptable to do this to a dog or a cat, so I find it very worrying that so many people think its ok with a horse... bizarre.  

There is no "smugness" in those of us who give our horses turnout. This is what most of us have strived for and ensured happened. I guess its simply that some people have different priorities.

OP's horse is clearly showing how unhappy he is, and some of you seem to have the attitude of "suck it up" and that its "good" for him to get used to it in case he ever has to be in through injury (which may never happen...).  Weird!
		
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not really, but it does seem that this conversation can't be had without either side getting judgmental or snippy 

I think that its good that all horses get used to different routines and can be left in, or on their own, or go to a clinic etc without getting stressed out of their heads. working horses used to be kept in, it can be done well, especially short term but its harder work and costs more. 

I wish I had 15 acres of pasture but I don't. Is that not ideal? well, most of us should give up now then. Mine are getting as much turnout as I can give them (between 6-9 hours per day, they've only been kept in for one day all winter and I'm in SW Scotland)-they are also getting walked out as I appreciate my set up is not ideal (atm, but we only moved in this winter). If I had a ridden horse I would be riding it. Working horses used to be kept in-its a case of working them harder than most leisure riders currently do/can. Noone is talking about doing it permanently.

I also think that too many pay buttons for livery but expect the earth, but then I don't do livery anymore so it hardly matters. But I do appreciate the £2.5K I've just spent on internal stables, the £5K I am about to spend on all weather turnout and the £2K I will spend getting the gateways fixed in my fields, plus the rolling and reseeding I will have to pay for. All this is costing me more than the £15-25pw so many people seem proud of spending at livery yards elsewhere.


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## justabob (14 February 2014)

In extreme circumstances it is necessary for them to be in, obviously not forever, just when we have this weather. When they are exercised every day I don't see a problem. I am sure with the right management they will not come to harm. Lovely livery mentality coming to the fore here, paid for it and want it attitude. How about looking to the future when you have nice fields to turn your horses out in the spring?


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## L&M (14 February 2014)

Well said....


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## Flame_ (14 February 2014)

justabob said:



			Lovely livery mentality coming to the fore here, paid for it and want it attitude.
		
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Well, yeah, surely if you've paid for something you want it? Don't you?

I think this comes down to everybody compromising, including the YO. I'm ok with very restricted turnout in the worst weather, but none at all for more than a couple of days isn't acceptable.


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## nikkimariet (14 February 2014)

Flame_ said:



			I'm ok with very restricted turnout in the worst weather, but none at all for more than a couple of days isn't acceptable.
		
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I don't think the weather heard you!


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## RunToEarth (14 February 2014)

Flame_ said:



			Well, yeah, surely if you've paid for something you want it? Don't you?

I think this comes down to everybody compromising, including the YO. I'm ok with very restricted turnout in the worst weather, but none at all for more than a couple of days isn't acceptable.
		
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The point that justabob was making, I think, was that liveries are not understanding that YOs close fields as they understand the need to preserve them for the rest of the year. Regardless with what you pay for - trash it in this weather and it is not coming back well in the spring, regardless of how much your livery bill is. 

No turnout for two days is acceptable to me, because I understand land management and I understand what I'm dealing with. Tell the weather to stop raining why don't you?


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## JDH01 (14 February 2014)

I keep my horses in in the winter and always have. I have bought new horses in the winter which have previously been used to turn out and they have always settled.  The key for me is proper work - I mean min an hour per day and feed apropriate to the work. Also longer work at least twice a week. I believe that if they have quality exercise, good forage with free access and appropriate hard feed they are high on the welfare option.  I know all will not agree and apreciate their view but would not change my view.


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## justabob (14 February 2014)

Flame_ said:



			Well, yeah, surely if you've paid for something you want it? Don't you?

I think this comes down to everybody compromising, including the YO. I'm ok with very restricted turnout in the worst weather, but none at all for more than a couple of days isn't acceptable.
		
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Yes compromising is a good idea, one day at the moment is no different from the next. We are not getting drying out days. What baffles me though, are you all so incompetent that you can only handle your horses/smallponies when they are living out?


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## stencilface (14 February 2014)

Thing is, if most horses have something to do/eat they are quite happy out in the filth, like a pig in poo actually! I know many nights my horse is stood resolutely on top of the hill 100m away, ignoring us while hay gets put out and buckets get banged.

Fine if YO restrict/ban turnout in the worst weather, but judging by the number of posts on here of unhappy people and horses, it's only fair they provide a suitable alternative as a temporary measure. If the school can't take a few horses free schooling and having a roll for a couple of weeks, then do you want to school on it as a reliable surface day in day out?

Eta I think a couple of days, maybe up to a week is reasonable, but more and they either have to create a sacrifice paddock or figure out yard turnout, or use the school IMHO. 

And yes it's ideal that some horses can adapt to box rest, I know mines done enough of it, but some people won't do that do their horses.


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## siennamum (14 February 2014)

justabob said:



			In extreme circumstances it is necessary for them to be in, obviously not forever, just when we have this weather. When they are exercised every day I don't see a problem. I am sure with the right management they will not come to harm. Lovely livery mentality coming to the fore here, paid for it and want it attitude. How about looking to the future when you have nice fields to turn your horses out in the spring?
		
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If I am honest this last statement is what I don't get. I hate Spring grass and the problems it brings. I understand that the field needs to recover but would never rest the field for Spring. I'd wait till the goodness was out of the grass. I'd really rather mine eat hay all year round tbh.


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## samsbilly (14 February 2014)

My boy has had limited turnout since October. Currently he is going out once or twice a week for a few hours. I am busting a gut to keep him happy. He is hand grazed or loose schooled in the morning then again in my lunch break and ridden at least once a day twice at the weekend. He is being mucked/skipped out three times a day. It can be done. A lot of liveries aren't getting why it's being restricted but this has been an exceptionally wet winter as runtoearth said if it's trashed now the summer turnout will continued to be restricted. We can all only do our best. Hopefully it's not for much longer x


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## Flame_ (14 February 2014)

RunToEarth said:



			The point that justabob was making, I think, was that liveries are not understanding that YOs close fields as they understand the need to preserve them for the rest of the year. Regardless with what you pay for - trash it in this weather and it is not coming back well in the spring, regardless of how much your livery bill is. 

No turnout for two days is acceptable to me, because I understand land management and I understand what I'm dealing with. Tell the weather to stop raining why don't you?
		
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So the customers are morons who just don't understand land management Wow.

Its Britain, its winter, its wet. Well not exactly a new thing really is it, apart from WHERE it's mainly hitting this time? We have this discussion every year and every year I'm more grateful that I've got a pragmatic YM and YO who are interested in balancing the needs of the horses, the satisfaction of customers and the safety of the owners and staff with the condition of the land and facilities.


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## Holly Hocks (14 February 2014)

justabob said:



			Yes compromising is a good idea, one day at the moment is no different from the next. We are not getting drying out days. What baffles me though, are you all so incompetent that you can only handle your horses/smallponies when they are living out?
		
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Yes   However do pop down and hack Blue out - I will have her tacked up ready for you.......x


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## babymare (14 February 2014)

just a thought but i also believe some (and note i say some) yards over horse thier land? I fully understand that they need to make money( theyare at end of day running a business) but would always prefer to pay a bit more less horses and all year turnout.


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## MagicMelon (14 February 2014)

In reply to the odd comment that as long as the horse gets exercised then its acceptable to keep it in. Personally I struggle with that - when does the horse get to simply be a horse? When do they get to graze? Socialise? Roll?  Taking a horse out of its box purely to work, to me makes it sound like a machine.


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## justabob (14 February 2014)

Flame_ said:



			So the customers are morons who just don't understand land management&#8230; Wow.

Its Britain, its winter, its wet. Well not exactly a new thing really is it, apart from WHERE it's mainly hitting this time? We have this discussion every year and every year I'm more grateful that I've got a pragmatic YM and YO who are interested in balancing the needs of the horses, the satisfaction of customers and the safety of the owners and staff with the condition of the land and facilities.
		
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Morons? If the cap fits Flame. The wettest winter in 200 years? Glad your YM/YO are so understanding. I would not personally want my horse out in this weather, but I understand that it is not your land and you will be living in the moment.


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## justabob (14 February 2014)

Holly Hocks said:



			Yes   However do pop down and hack Blue out - I will have her tacked up ready for you.......x
		
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I shall bring the same glue that I am using on Red!!!! How is that damn dog getting on??


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## RunToEarth (14 February 2014)

Flame_ said:



			So the customers are morons who just don't understand land management Wow.

Its Britain, its winter, its wet. Well not exactly a new thing really is it, apart from WHERE it's mainly hitting this time? We have this discussion every year and every year I'm more grateful that I've got a pragmatic YM and YO who are interested in balancing the needs of the horses, the satisfaction of customers and the safety of the owners and staff with the condition of the land and facilities.
		
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I'm not sure where I called liveries morons but whatever, HHO Friday club out in force. 

Perhaps when viewing a yard and it's facilities, take into account the amount of liveries and the amount of grazing, then think of this crap weather and look at the grazing again. 

I do think there are a lot of YOs out there don't have enough grazing for clients, but more fool liveries for signing up and paying bills. We have 12 acres grazing for 3 horses and I wouldn't want more this year, or last year.


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## RunToEarth (14 February 2014)

MagicMelon said:



			In reply to the odd comment that as long as the horse gets exercised then its acceptable to keep it in. Personally I struggle with that - when does the horse get to simply be a horse? When do they get to graze? Socialise? Roll?  Taking a horse out of its box purely to work, to me makes it sound like a machine.
		
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I believe these comments are in the context of the current situation of dire weather, not acceptable to keep a horse in 23 hours indefinitely.


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## Flame_ (14 February 2014)

justabob said:



			Morons? If the cap fits Flame. The wettest winter in 200 years? Glad your YM/YO are so understanding. I would not personally want my horse out in this weather, but I understand that it is not your land and you will be living in the moment.
		
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Then you are very mistaken. It would be foolish to know you're at a good place and not to do what you can to take care of the facilities that you will want to keep using. I do not live in the moment at all, and neither as far as I am aware do most other liveries.


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## stencilface (14 February 2014)

justabob said:



			Morons? If the cap fits Flame. The wettest winter in 200 years? Glad your YM/YO are so understanding. I would not personally want my horse out in this weather, but I understand that it is not your land and you will be living in the moment.
		
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This is surely the point of trash paddocks, if you can't afford that over winter in the uk, or another turnout provision then you shouldn't be running livery IMHO. Our gateways and field shelter areas get trashed and get fenced off in summer to recover, probably 1 acre max. The rest gets harrowed and rolled annually (at least). morons? Well, it's been managed this way for 25 years and we still have far too much grass in good summers and have to ask the farmer to put some sheep on for us.

Eta, I'm not talking about this extreme weather or a few days here and there, I'm talking yards who do this on a regular basis every year.


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## ChesnutsRoasting (14 February 2014)

stencilface said:



			This is surely the point of trash paddocks, if you can't afford that over winter in the uk, or another turnout provision then you shouldn't be running livery IMHO. Our gateways and field shelter areas get trashed and get fenced off in summer to recover, probably 1 acre max. The rest gets harrowed and rolled annually (at least). morons? Well, it's been managed this way for 25 years and we still have far too much grass in good summers and have to ask the farmer to put some sheep on for us.
		
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Exactly!


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## Nudibranch (14 February 2014)

Thing is, its easy to say YOs should have more land or less liveries but they dont. I graze two on many acres and on rotation but I am in a lucky minority.  The livery down the road has rubbish, overstocked grazing and I wouldnt touch it with a bargepole. But what if there is no alternative?
OP I hope you can sort something!


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## justabob (14 February 2014)

Lets hope we don't have a summer like 2012 then.


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## stencilface (14 February 2014)

justabob said:



			Lets hope we don't have a summer like 2012 then.
		
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Sorry, think we've already been predicted that it will be so, remember the hose pipe bans of 2012? excellent!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...mer-2014-to-be-hottest-on-record-9122575.html


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## Holly Hocks (14 February 2014)

justabob said:



			I shall bring the same glue that I am using on Red!!!! How is that damn dog getting on??
		
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Ooh can I borrow the glue please?  Actually in fairness we're coping - I put her out for an hour or so this morning and am going to attempt to hack out in the morning (if you see an air ambulance heading this way about 9am it'll probably be for me!).  Kenzi is the same whatever - typical native - as long as she's got food she doesn't care where it comes from. 
Dog is fine - he had a few 5 minutes of freedom off the lead and then we went back to physio last night to be told that he has deteriorated again!! AARRGGGHHH. So a few days of lead walking again before we attempt to let him off again - the only problem is that when we let him off he goes off like a greyhound - doesn't do things slowly!


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## justabob (14 February 2014)

stencilface said:





Sorry, think we've already been predicted that it will be so, remember the hose pipe bans of 2012? excellent!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...mer-2014-to-be-hottest-on-record-9122575.html

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We will be fine then!! Red hot summer on the way.


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## RunToEarth (14 February 2014)

Nudibranch said:



			Thing is, its easy to say YOs should have more land or less liveries but they dont. I graze two on many acres and on rotation but I am in a lucky minority.  The livery down the road has rubbish, overstocked grazing and I wouldnt touch it with a bargepole. But what if there is no alternative?
OP I hope you can sort something!
		
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No alternative to being on a yard over grazed with no turnout and no use of facilities so that horse was in 23 hours a day? Quite simply I would not have a horse in that situation. No alternative? No one puts a gun to my head, I have horses for the fun of it all, not to be on some squalid livery yard with naff all to enjoy.


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## ester (14 February 2014)

RunToEarth said:



			I'm not sure where I called liveries morons but whatever, HHO Friday club out in force. 

Perhaps when viewing a yard and it's facilities, take into account the amount of liveries and the amount of grazing, then think of this crap weather and look at the grazing again. 

I do think there are a lot of YOs out there don't have enough grazing for clients, but more fool liveries for signing up and paying bills. We have 12 acres grazing for 3 horses and I wouldn't want more this year, or last year.
		
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I did, in part because I was used to managing my own grazing (4.5 acres for 2 which worked well and provided hay crop). Even though we are on a chalk slope and not that muddy compared to others the YO has opted to keep 2 stables empty this winter to make life easier on the ground. Horses also only go out 7-2ish atm but they do go out every day regardless.


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## Sunshine (14 February 2014)

Such a difficult and emotive issue. 

I can understand the OP wanting some form of turnout or freedom for her 4 yr old, after all, too much pounding round is not good for a youngster's joints. And, despite the need to train them to accept stabling in case of box rest, once they start to get upset or fractious about being in continuously it makes it a bigger issue for them if they ever do need to be on box rest. Far better that they have the short intervals and then the release, be that two days in and a day out or twenty minutes each day playing and rolling. 

We have our own yard, with plenty of level fields that are luckily not too wet, except in gateways and the one main track, a woodchip area intended for restricted turnout, and an arena but I wouldn't leave them turned out unsupervised in the arena. In fact at present even the woodchip is becoming too deep to want them charging round in it, which they are more likely to do if they only get out every once in a blue moon. Having a 4 yr old who is now on injury related box rest, I can also see the problems that can arise from hooleying round in deep mud, and as a YO I would not want to have liveries coming back to moan about the ensuing vet bills. 

Although I think that if YOs are regularly needing to restrict turnout in winter for more than two or three days at a time (and some do this year in year out), then they do need to assess the feasibility of providing some form of free turnout area with sand, second hand surface, woodchip or old bed shavings. Even if it is just a 15m x 30m fenced area that liveries can turn out for twenty mins whilst they muck out it would help alleviate a lot of owners distress.


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## Ali27 (14 February 2014)

We have two all weather turnout areas at our yard of 16 horses as emergency use! We all have our own fields which we manage! They will be narrowed and rolled in Summer and we have left two fields to rest over winter so everybody can rest their fields in Spring! As yard manager, my attitude is that it is easier to give everyone their own fields and its up to them what they do with them! I have two good doers and I have religiously poo picked every week from Nov and will continue until Spring when I then poo pick daily. I have fenced off part of my field two weeks ago to rest it! Luckily mine is on a slope so seems to drain reasonably well and still looks quite green. Mine have been out daily from 5.30am to 6pm every day from end of Oct! They are out 24/7 from Spring to Autumn! I'm just glad that we have the freedom to do what we want with the fields! I could never be at a yard with restricted turn out! My poor mare was on box rest from last Sept to Feb and she got so depressed! She literally drags me out to the field in the morning


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (14 February 2014)

justabob said:



			Yes compromising is a good idea, one day at the moment is no different from the next. We are not getting drying out days. What baffles me though, are you all so incompetent that you can only handle your horses/smallponies when they are living out?
		
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Agree ( is this a first ?!) as long as they are being worked ( properly) surely they are not all such bad mannered beasts that you can't do a thing with them ?! Fresh or not mine would know to it if they started acting like nobs and being rude.


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## MotherOfChickens (14 February 2014)

siennamum said:



			I'd really rather mine eat hay all year round tbh.
		
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me too-and they probably will. Its more about the huge potholes that will dry into my *special* soil and the fact that IMO, its too deep to put them in it right now unless I absolutely have to. They have a small trash paddock and the driveway but still don't move around enough hence the exercise.  Actual grass I don't care about at all. A lot of livery yards though, won't be wanting to feed hay in the field year round and most livery owners won't want to pay for it.


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## justabob (14 February 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			Agree ( is this a first ?!) as long as they are being worked ( properly) surely they are not all such bad mannered beasts that you can't do a thing with them ?! Fresh or not mine would know to it if they started acting like nobs and being rude.
		
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I say!! Agree with the above also.


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## stencilface (14 February 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			Agree ( is this a first ?!) as long as they are being worked ( properly) surely they are not all such bad mannered beasts that you can't do a thing with them ?! Fresh or not mine would know to it if they started acting like nobs and being rude.
		
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Not all of us have time or facilities to work every day though, so that has to be a consideration too. I expect our horses to cope with bring out rugged appropriately, although I don't turn them out on a postage stamp sized field with no forage or shelter either. Obviously it's unlikely that anyone had everything (we have a great field, no arena though!) you just have to find what works for you. Work, baby and dog means there's not time to ride every day, regardless of facilities (well ok, some laziness there too!)


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## zigzag (14 February 2014)

Our field has been shut for two weeks now, we are allowed to turn out in school, can leave them there most of the day if we want,, (only 3 ponies).  I won't allow my daughter to ride atm until pony is back in field, and before anyone says anything she is only 2! I cant ride her as she is too small, and don't believe in lunging ponies so a kid can ride them, luckily she is being pretty chilled and likes being in, but would prefer her out, even if she had to come in overnight.
YO pretty decent though and is refunding money as she has shut the field


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## nikkimariet (14 February 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			Agree ( is this a first ?!) as long as they are being worked ( properly) surely they are not all such bad mannered beasts that you can't do a thing with them ?! Fresh or not mine would know to it if they started acting like nobs and being rude.
		
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justabob said:



			I say!! Agree with the above also.
		
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I like the tone of surprise at agreeing with each other here, made me laugh


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## Flame_ (14 February 2014)

justabob said:



			Yes compromising is a good idea, one day at the moment is no different from the next. We are not getting drying out days. What baffles me though, are you all so incompetent that you can only handle your horses/smallponies when they are living out?
		
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Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			Agree ( is this a first ?!) as long as they are being worked ( properly) surely they are not all such bad mannered beasts that you can't do a thing with them ?! Fresh or not mine would know to it if they started acting like nobs and being rude.
		
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This shouldn't be my fight since while a lot of people are moaning their horses are getting too sharp through lack of exercise it makes mine more forward and enjoyable to school, but I'll answer anyway

Many full and part liveries get down to do their horses in the dark ruling out hacking so you're talking five nights schooling which, unless you're working at a pretty high level of training, isn't going to be genuine hard work for the majority of horses, especially as at least a couple of those nights its probably going to be hammering it down so a full hour's kind of ambitious IME.

What about retirees and resting horses? How can you "work them hard?" Why should you to their detriment?

What about novices, or not novices just average people, who are capable of managing their horses under normal circumstances but are massively over-horsed once horse gets shut in?

What about the yard staff who are left to manage people's horses who aren't down at night in the rain working their horses round the school until they're tired because they're busy, or aren't capable or just CBA, when they're way past boiling point?


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## justabob (14 February 2014)

nikkimariet said:



			I like the tone of surprise at agreeing with each other here, made me laugh 

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 I do often agree with her in my head, just too contrary to admit it.


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## zigzag (14 February 2014)

Tbh if I couldnt turn my daughter's pony in the school and she had to be kept in 24/7 I would move her, but as it will be only a few weeks I'll put up with it,  my daughter just doesn't get to ride... even though she thinks she is invincible due to a new body protector and thinks she " Can do it all by myself now Mummy"


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## justabob (14 February 2014)

Flame_ said:



			This shouldn't be my fight since while a lot of people are moaning their horses are getting too sharp through lack of exercise it makes mine more forward and enjoyable to school, but I'll answer anyway&#8230;

Many full and part liveries get down to do their horses in the dark ruling out hacking so you're talking five nights schooling which, unless you're working at a pretty high level of training, isn't going to be genuine hard work for the majority of horses, especially as at least a couple of those nights its probably going to be hammering it down so a full hour's kind of ambitious IME.

What about retirees and resting horses? How can you "work them hard?" Why should you to their detriment?

What about novices, or not novices just average people, who are capable of managing their horses under normal circumstances but are massively over-horsed once horse gets shut in?

What about the yard staff who are left to manage people's horses who aren't down at night in the rain working their horses round the school until they're tired because they're busy, or aren't capable or just CBA, when they're way past boiling point?
		
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I get your point Flame, but come on, we are in crisis in this country with the floods. If horses are in retirement they won't mind a few months off, novice owners with novice horses will come to no harm if left for a few weeks, crickey it is not life threatening. As for the liveries that can't be arsed, well, what can I say? I also think you over estimate the boiling point of horses owned by the above. If they own a horse that can not be managed without turnout, they should question their ability to own a horse in the first place. As I said this country is in crisis and whinging about turnout is turning my stomach,


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## RunToEarth (14 February 2014)

justabob said:



			As I said this country is in crisis and whinging about turnout is turning my stomach,
		
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I completely agree, and I don't usually agree with jab! 

It's crap, these last few weeks have not been fun with regards to looking after horses at all, turnout or not. 

But you don't need to look any further than your local news to see the lives, livelihoods, homes and businesses that this weather has completely devastated. First world problems are sodden turnout for your ponies, there are people that have lost everything they live for in this rubbish weather.


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## lhotse (14 February 2014)

My three have gone out on two days out of the last seven. My mare even managed two hours out yesterday before she wanted in! Today, she was tied up outside her stable whilst it was cleaned then put back in again. It's too dangerous to try to walk anywhere with trees depositing branches everywhere and I don't have a menage. If I turned her out, she would have gone nuts out in the field. I'm lucky though, she's more than happy to stay in munching hay even if she's not been ridden or walked. I feel awful about the situation, upto now, she has been out practically everyday, even if it's only been for a couple of hours. I haven't ridden in a week. 
But she's coping, she's not stressed and when she went out yesterday after a couple of days in, she settled down to eating grass after an initial bomb around. 
But this weather is crazy, four severe storms in ten days. Storms that you would likely see maybe three times over the course of a normal winter. So, I am making the best of what I have. There is light at the end of the tunnel, the weatherman said next week should return to normal february weather. I think we'll have snow next!

ETA My mare hates the wind, it's not safe to ride her in it on the roads, and she does not want to be in the field in it either. I can cope with a wet field and mud, but not the wind!!


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## Fides (14 February 2014)

My fields are about 3/4 flooded and my 3 are still out 24/7. So what if they get trashed - they will recover... We'll all be complaining there is too much grass come summer


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## Crazy_cat_lady (14 February 2014)

Fortunately yo is still allowing turn out but I have kept him in on the days when it's really wet and windy as there is no point him being out as he will just stand and shiver in a corner (wouldn't like the Welsh hills he's designed for!)

Previous yo did a Rota turn out one yearwhen it was really bad- ie x horses went out x days etc. He was walked in hand round the school on days he was in and not being ridden.  Fortunately the most he will do is spook rather than rear etc.

It's a shame you can't lunge,  mine had a buck on the lunge the other day when going into canter,  I just extended the line and let him canter a couple of circuits.  Obviously I had a hat on.

He was almost "simmering" yesterday when riding,  was actually quite nice as he is usually quite lazy, just mixed up the exercises a lot and he actually went really well though I'm not going down the lanes if he feels like that!  Was looking at photos from the summer just now and really want to go for a gallop but not safe atm

Though I'd rather have no turn out than be in the situation the people who's homes and yards are flooded are in.


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## tankgirl1 (14 February 2014)

nikkimariet said:



			I like the tone of surprise at agreeing with each other here, made me laugh 

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Oh dear, well I have a Welsh D, will do anything for me usually, but after weeks of box rest he has become a PITA to handle on the way in/out to the field - which is a good 5 minute walk btw. I am a novice, should I hang my head in shame whilst all the 'proper' horsey people laugh at and berate me? Yes he scares me in these circumstances, so I will lead in a bridle, with gloves/hat/schooling whip, and will take lessons in groundwork! Not nice to be laughing at novices who are genuinely trying to do their best!


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## charlie76 (14 February 2014)

We are still turning out on all but the wettest of days. I have allocated three fields with two horses in each that I accept will get muddy however with less horses in them they are holding up OK. I dont put hay in the fields as they fight and make a mess and most gets wasted. Instead I put them all out from 9 am till 11 am, bring in and give hay in the stables for the afternoon, most of them usually do some form of work in the afternoon/ evening. If its bad they all stay in. Their feed and work is adjusted to take that into consideration. 
None of them are rude or wild. 
If they are in they are all very quiet and are either eating or sleeping during the day. 
Mine are all part liveries. They are eating a vast amount of hay so I have made a small increase in the winter livery bill to cover the extra hay as even if they are out for a bit they still come in to big haynets. I charge 75p a day for the extra hay which no one minds.


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## Fides (14 February 2014)

I have got round the poaching issue by having a large area of hardcore with a big square gate post in the middle (8 inch by 8 inch). I have a tie ring on each side and tie nets up on the post. There is a little wastage but not much...


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## Patterdale (15 February 2014)

Mine are still out in a high up field, out 24/7 and no mud at all, not even the gateways as they're not coming in. 

HOWEVER - there isn't much shelter and it must be pretty miserable up there some nights. Can't bring them in for a bit of respite as every indoor space is filled with lambs as its too bad to put them out. 

I am usually of the 24 hour out whatever the weather brigade but I must admit I'm feeling a bit sorry for them. At least those stuck in are warm and dry. 

V difficult conditions.


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## AdorableAlice (15 February 2014)

OP, have a word with your vet, bromide will settle your pony and hopefully make him safer to ride in the school when you can.


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## nikkimariet (15 February 2014)

tankgirl1 said:



			Oh dear, well I have a Welsh D, will do anything for me usually, but after weeks of box rest he has become a PITA to handle on the way in/out to the field - which is a good 5 minute walk btw. I am a novice, should I hang my head in shame whilst all the 'proper' horsey people laugh at and berate me? Yes he scares me in these circumstances, so I will lead in a bridle, with gloves/hat/schooling whip, and will take lessons in groundwork! Not nice to be laughing at novices who are genuinely trying to do their best!
		
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Excuse me? Where on earth am I laughing at novice owners? I was laughing at justabob and PS agreeing with each other, as they are notorious for disagreeing with each other!!!


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (17 February 2014)

Flame_ said:



			This shouldn't be my fight since while a lot of people are moaning their horses are getting too sharp through lack of exercise it makes mine more forward and enjoyable to school, but I'll answer anyway&#8230;

Many full and part liveries get down to do their horses in the dark ruling out hacking so you're talking five nights schooling which, unless you're working at a pretty high level of training, isn't going to be genuine hard work for the majority of horses, especially as at least a couple of those nights its probably going to be hammering it down so a full hour's kind of ambitious IME.

What about retirees and resting horses? How can you "work them hard?" Why should you to their detriment?

What about novices, or not novices just average people, who are capable of managing their horses under normal circumstances but are massively over-horsed once horse gets shut in?

What about the yard staff who are left to manage people's horses who aren't down at night in the rain working their horses round the school until they're tired because they're busy, or aren't capable or just CBA, when they're way past boiling point?
		
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i work a 9-5 job and teach freelance too. Im more often than not getting on in pitch black and piss pouring rain, after teaching or riding for someone else first and yet i somehow still manage it! NMT doesnt even get on board until 6.45 but she never "CBA" either.

dont buy a horse you can only handle under ideal conditions and buy a bike if you CBA as soon as the going gets tough!



justabob said:



			I get your point Flame, but come on, we are in crisis in this country with the floods. If horses are in retirement they won't mind a few months off, novice owners with novice horses will come to no harm if left for a few weeks, crickey it is not life threatening. As for the liveries that can't be arsed, well, what can I say? I also think you over estimate the boiling point of horses owned by the above. If they own a horse that can not be managed without turnout, they should question their ability to own a horse in the first place. As I said this country is in crisis and whinging about turnout is turning my stomach,
		
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concur 



tankgirl1 said:



			Oh dear, well I have a Welsh D, will do anything for me usually, but after weeks of box rest he has become a PITA to handle on the way in/out to the field - which is a good 5 minute walk btw. I am a novice, should I hang my head in shame whilst all the 'proper' horsey people laugh at and berate me? Yes he scares me in these circumstances, so I will lead in a bridle, with gloves/hat/schooling whip, and will take lessons in groundwork! Not nice to be laughing at novices who are genuinely trying to do their best!
		
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nikkimariet said:



			Excuse me? Where on earth am I laughing at novice owners? I was laughing at justabob and PS agreeing with each other, as they are notorious for disagreeing with each other!!!
		
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no one is laughing at you but you bought the horse so now im afraid you need to man up and get on top of this rude behaviour, and not make excuses or allowances.
and dont think i dont understand or dont get it, because i ride all sorts of very very difficult horses for people (this weekend ive had one nearly blind bolt in to a wire fence and one that actually managed to rodeo me off before my arse had even properly landed in the saddle!) and sometimes you have to bluff it-you might not want to deal with it and you might be thinking "ick i so dont want to do this" but you have to have that ability to pull your pants up and get on with it (or pay someone who can to do it instead).


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## dianchi (17 February 2014)

Well im quite happy with mine staying in! Infact I would like to see someone try and put her out- if you can get her to walk through the mud to a grassless field- crack on!

Nope my skinny pin can stay indoors, eat her hay, go on the walker for an hour and do an hours proper work each eve.
How do people think that "pros" produce most of their horses?!


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## ihatework (17 February 2014)

dianchi said:



			Well im quite happy with mine staying in! Infact I would like to see someone try and put her out- if you can get her to walk through the mud to a grassless field- crack on!

Nope my skinny pin can stay indoors, eat her hay, go on the walker for an hour and do an hours proper work each eve.
How do people think that "pros" produce most of their horses?!
		
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Different people have different lives. Not everyone needs, wants or can keep their horses like a pro. 
What if you worked 12 hours a day, couldn't ride your horse everyday, didn't have access to a walker and wanted a quiet hack for pleasure on the weekend?

There is no right or wrong way to keep a horse. But there are preferences.


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## doriangrey (17 February 2014)

There are some pretty high horses being clamboured on here   It is my opinion that horses 'need' turnout to be able to fully relax and be themselves be it in a barn, a school, trash paddock whatever.  Of course it isn't possible all the time due to weather, box rest etc.  I feel for people who cannot turn their horses out at the moment or even ride because their yards/facilities and fields are flooded, these are exceptional circumstances for some people and I certainly wouldn't be calling them incompetent.  However, I'm talking turnout here not work.  How hard can you work your horse and for how long to justify say keeping it stabled for the rest of the time?  Heck I can go to the gym and do a pretty tough workout for an hour but it doesn't knacker me for the rest of the day, how must it be for the horse who is born to run?  I can understand how some horses are being extremely fresh because it isn't necessarily the work but the relaxation that's being missed, to be concerned that your horse isn't getting his relaxation makes for a good owner I think.  All work and no play ....


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## sandy3924 (17 February 2014)

doriangrey said:



			There are some pretty high horses being clamboured on here   It is my opinion that horses 'need' turnout to be able to fully relax and be themselves be it in a barn, a school, trash paddock whatever.  Of course it isn't possible all the time due to weather, box rest etc.  I feel for people who cannot turn their horses out at the moment or even ride because their yards/facilities and fields are flooded, these are exceptional circumstances for some people and I certainly wouldn't be calling them incompetent.  However, I'm talking turnout here not work.  How hard can you work your horse and for how long to justify say keeping it stabled for the rest of the time?  Heck I can go to the gym and do a pretty tough workout for an hour but it doesn't knacker me for the rest of the day, how must it be for the horse who is born to run?  I can understand how some horses are being extremely fresh because it isn't necessarily the work but the relaxation that's being missed, to be concerned that your horse isn't getting his relaxation makes for a good owner I think.  All work and no play ....
		
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Well said!


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## criso (17 February 2014)

I am one that wants as much turnout as possible for their horses, I won't consider individual turnout as I think it's good for horse to interact with other horse and always make these things a pre-requesite when I am looking for a yard...

but fields are closed for the first time in over 30 years, the situation at the moment is not normal so I am making the best of it.

I have 2  horses baby tb (5) and older retired tb (11).  The retired one can't be ridden or go on the horsewalker due to an old injury so he gets walked up the drive to the main road a few times which is a nice long walk. However this is a private road with other houses on it and I wouldn't risk it after dark so can only do this if I get up when it's still light.  He's a bit grumpy but behaving.  We've done box rest together before so know the drill.  

Younger one goes on the horsewalker every day gets ridden or lunged on the days I am up (probably 5 days a week).  He struggles to concentrate at first but soon settles if ridden quietly but firmly forward.  He also gets taken up and down the drive if the riding is not a hack as he's barefoot and it's good for his feet. He's also started this whole separation thing with the older one since they've been in so I want to nip this is in the bud and get baby tb off the yard and away from the other one as much as possible.

I am freelance so can be flexible to a point but still can't go up every day, if I am working in west london till 7pm I wouldn't get to the yard till gone 9  but days I work from home I am getting up early to work in the morning so I can get up to the yard while it's still light.

It may not be how I would choose to keep my horses under normal circumstances but these are not.  There are people not far whose fields and stables are completely under water.  Most yards in the area closed the fields alot sooner than where I am.  It's easy to say you are continuing to turn out but unless you have seen the fields in question you can't comment on whether it is safe or suitable.  There is heavy clay round here and a very saturated field could have a horse sinking into very dense mud that risks injury.  You can also damage a field so much that the only solution is to completely reseed and start again in which case you might lose the field for the following year while it reestablishes.

There are yards that stop turning out at the first sign of mud and this happens every year but there are also yards that given the extreme circumstances have had to make a very tough decision this year.

I'm not going to go looking for another yard on the basis of something that happens every 30 years.


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## Merrymoles (17 February 2014)

I only ever get to my horse in the dark during the week at this time of year. We are lucky enough to have turnout but do not yet have a manege and the fields are too wet to ride or lunge in, even if we had lights.
If my horse were in 24/7 I would have no option but to lead round the yard in hand and that's it. I could not pay anyone to exercise as there is no access to the yard unless one of us is present (we all work full time) and I cannot be, otherwise I would ride myself. Therefore sticking him on the non-existent walker and an hour's hard work in the evening is not an option. Many of us can be ar$ed but just don't have the facilities to work our horses.
I love my yard and there is no way I would want to move just because of one bad winter.
I think circumstances are exceptional for many this year and I really feel for the OP who is getting to know a new horse. 
I am obsessively watching the sunset times everyday and counting down to when I can hack out after work or (wet permitting) ride in the fields. Until then, he is on an enforced lay off and fortunately turned out from 6am - 6pm. I can only imagine how fed up we would both be if he was in 24/7.


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## Always Henesy (17 February 2014)

I think coping without turn out just really depends on the horse.

My TBXWB had 19 weeks in his stable - no in hand walking - nothing. He was recovering from a serious injury. Bless him - he was the same lovely laid back chap throughout. No bad manners, no marbles lost. Plenty of forage, a companion 24/7 (we rotated the ponies), a scratch from me twice a day & radio 2 was all he needed. This was the winter of 2010 when we had 16 inches of snow & temps of -19!

Some horses cope well without turnout - others do not.

It is a difficult one for the OP - I do sympathise.


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## catroo (17 February 2014)

I rent a yard & land so I can do what suits me and my ponies. Although on clay I'm lucky that I've set up the facilities so they have free access to my Winter field and the yard/stables. In bad weather they are shut in the yard overnight with stables open but during the day the gate to the field is open regardless of the weather.

I have five and do find it interesting to see what their preferences are in this weather. One of them will go out of for a bit of a run around, little graze etc but spend more time in the yard munching hay, two will be out of the gate like a shot and stay out regardless of rain, sleet, snow and not come in until tea time (I don't hay in the field but adlib in the yard) . Two of them will not go out at all, from how dry they are it looks like they never leave their stables! 

I'm very lucky (but do work long hours to pay for it) in that my boys have a choice. Some are happy to stay in, some are not and a livery yard has a hard job pleasing everyone.


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## Flame_ (17 February 2014)

Flame_ said:



			What about the yard staff who are left to manage people's horses who aren't down at night in the rain working their horses round the school until they're tired because they're busy, or aren't capable or just CBA, when they're way past boiling point?
		
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Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			i work a 9-5 job and teach freelance too. Im more often than not getting on in pitch black and piss pouring rain, after teaching or riding for someone else first and yet i somehow still manage it! NMT doesnt even get on board until 6.45 but she never "CBA" either.

dont buy a horse you can only handle under ideal conditions and buy a bike if you CBA as soon as the going gets tough!
		
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Are you deliberately missing the point here. 

What about the yard staff? 

(Most!) People do own horses they can't or have no intention of working like a pro every day in the winter (leisure horses?!). Should people not buy leisure horses? What are the yard staff supposed to do with them when they're doing their nuts in? I don't think explosions are "rudeness" as you put it anyway, they're usually reactions to too much stress or energy.

We've seen photos of what sort of behaviour you are prepared to work with from horses and your ability and guts may be admirable but other people would prefer to accept their limitations, put horses in fields for that sort of stuff and keep their necks safe. I don't agree that all the people that fall into this category shouldn't have horses or should have to pay pros to work them on top of their livery.


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## RunToEarth (17 February 2014)

Flame_ said:



			We've seen photos of what sort of behaviour you are prepared to work with from horses and your ability and guts may be admirable but other people would prefer to accept their limitations, put horses in fields for that sort of stuff and keep their necks safe. I don't agree that all the people that fall into this category shouldn't have horses or should have to pay pros to work them on top of their livery.
		
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But lots of yards who have never shut fields before have had to shut fields because it is just so wet. In that situation, your options are either to ride it, pay someone else to ride it or find somewhere to turn it out. If you are at a livery yard, to a point you have to accept their management and adapt your management to reflect that. I would prefer not to have to get on mine when they are as high as a kite but at the moment I don't have a huge choice.


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## ester (17 February 2014)

Flame_ said:



			T
Many full and part liveries get down to do their horses in the dark ruling out hacking so you're talking five nights schooling which, unless you're working at a pretty high level of training, isn't going to be genuine hard work for the majority of horses, especially as at least a couple of those nights its probably going to be hammering it down so a full hour's kind of ambitious IME.

What about retirees and resting horses? How can you "work them hard?" Why should you to their detriment?
		
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I think this is quite an important point, there are horses for whom consecutive days of school riding would not be beneficial or could be detrimental, particularly if you are restricted to a 20x40. Also the OP's arena sounded pretty darn wet and not a surface you would want to currently be doing lots of work on.


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## delaneys (17 February 2014)

I think getting on to ride is a lot safer than letting a fresh horse loose in the arena. Work them hard and get there backs down. I had to canter for 45 mins round the school the other day, the horse was so fresh I would of been hurt lunging or leading! Luckily he was ok after being chased by a stray ginsters pasty wrapper!


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## Holly Hocks (17 February 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			i work a 9-5 job and teach freelance too. Im more often than not getting on in pitch black and piss pouring rain, after teaching or riding for someone else first and yet i somehow still manage it! NMT doesnt even get on board until 6.45 but she never "CBA" either.

dont buy a horse you can only handle under ideal conditions and buy a bike if you CBA as soon as the going gets tough!



concur 







no one is laughing at you but you bought the horse so now im afraid you need to man up and get on top of this rude behaviour, and not make excuses or allowances.
and dont think i dont understand or dont get it, because i ride all sorts of very very difficult horses for people (this weekend ive had one nearly blind bolt in to a wire fence and one that actually managed to rodeo me off before my arse had even properly landed in the saddle!) and sometimes you have to bluff it-you might not want to deal with it and you might be thinking "ick i so dont want to do this" but you have to have that ability to pull your pants up and get on with it (or pay someone who can to do it instead).
		
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So that's it everyone - don't buy a horse unless you're as good a rider as PS!


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## Flosii (17 February 2014)

Interesting response here.

However I was not looking for someone to give me a here this is what you should do and stick to it, just having a vent and looking for suggestions.

I know that I am not the only one in this position, and I am fully aware that there are alot of people that are worse off than me.

However, at the point of writing my original post I was mearly upset and frustrated. 

For those that are remotly interested I managed to get him turned loose in a small pen that he had a little bit of a buck and jump around in and rode him out yesterday and he was back to normal chilled self. (It was noted by another person at the yard how Highly strung he was,) but once got a little more room he was a bit happier.

I hope that walking in hand, being led from another and riding in evening (if electrics and school are upto it) he will be back. At the end of last week I was just very very scard that being in had blown his mind. For thoses suggesting using it as practise for box rest, this would be a completely different circumstance, and I can not completely say I would manage it differently because I dont know what the circumstance may be, but I would most likely handle it differently.

Thank you for those that gave helful advice, and I hope that after the weather over the weekend you are all safe.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (17 February 2014)

Holly Hocks said:



			So that's it everyone - don't buy a horse unless you're as good a rider as PS!
		
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no. dont buy a horse unless you are a good enough rider to ride THAT horse in less than ideal circumstances.

and yard staff are paid to deal with the horses. if the owner does not dare, or cannot, get on and work it-pay the yard staff to do that too.
how hard is this?!

if you have a horse that cannot work in the school then surely the options are:
1. do nothng, but dont whine about resulting hyper horse.
2.move yards to somewhere it can go in a field
3.pay someone to hack it.

there is zero point going on and on about needing turnout if you cannot provide it. work with the alternatives.


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## ester (17 February 2014)

Yard staff? Who are they!?

Glad his little buck etc seems to have helped OP.


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## RunToEarth (17 February 2014)

ester said:



			Yard staff? Who are they!?
		
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Alright, so theoretically - what would you do? The yard owner has closed grazing and won't allow you to turn out in the arena, you work 9-5 and your horse isn't coping well with being in and you don't want to get on it. 

Because to me the only options left are either paying someone else to ride it, or finding somewhere with facilities to move it to. This weather is difficult to work with when you have horses, but it's just what happens when you keep horses in the UK!


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## monkeybum13 (17 February 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			to all of you saying/complaiing about not being able to lunge or loose school-imagine 10/15/20 horses ALL going ballistic on a daily basis-sure fire way to trash the arena and thats going to be tens of thousands to sort, are you all happy to stump up a few thousand towards it? and no doubt you would all complain if a horse damaged the membrane and then you couldnt ride whilst it was fixed..............

i dont allow any loose schooling at all,or lunging of over fresh horses as it just trashed the surface. I am lucky to have sandy soil and well drained paddocks but i still wouldnt sacrifice the arena for turnout if they were all in.

get on board and work them HARD every day, i wouldnt even try and hand walk etc.
		
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I agree, turning out on arenas can do so much damage!

This weather is extreme, we just have to grit out teeth and get on with it I'm afraid.


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## monkeybum13 (17 February 2014)

Holly Hocks said:



			So that's it everyone - don't buy a horse unless you're as good a rider as PS!
		
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Sorry, what? I can't see anywhere where PS has said you need to be as good as her (god help us if we did!), just that if you want horses you need to put the effort in when the going gets tough.

There are people who have had their livelihoods, homes, land wrecked due to the weather and people are moaning about a lack of turnout for a few weeks? Good grief!


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## ester (17 February 2014)

RunToEarth said:



			Alright, so theoretically - what would you do? The yard owner has closed grazing and won't allow you to turn out in the arena, you work 9-5 and your horse isn't coping well with being in and you don't want to get on it. 

Because to me the only options left are either paying someone else to ride it, or finding somewhere with facilities to move it to. This weather is difficult to work with when you have horses, but it's just what happens when you keep horses in the UK!
		
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Honestly? I don't think I'd be there/in that situation in the first place. The large quantity of well draining grazing being part of my decision making for being where I am. I also have a pony that would be ok with it/wouldn't ever do anything that would unnerve me. Maybe that's sensible or just lucky? I also know him very well which helps. 

What would I do if I were in the situ where I was unnerved/horse not coping etc I would either move somewhere with different facilities and if that couldn't be done pay someone to ride/hack for me in the meantime. I just didn't think it fair to presume that all yards have on site easily available staff to do this for you (as opposed to finding someone competent and properly insured and happy to come freelance)


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## _Annie_ (17 February 2014)

Having seen the state of the geldings' field at our yard, I'm thanking my lucky stars my girl is one of only two mares here!  She still has daily turnout, from 8 til 3 most days, earlier as her field mate comes in at 1pm some days.  There's even grass left! 

The boys on the other hand are being turned out on the school as not only is their field utterly trashed, mud fever is doing the rounds and I guess it's just easier.  

The school has suffered for it, but it wasn't great to begin with and nobody here would rather the lads had no turnout at all :-/


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## Pigeon (17 February 2014)

My Pip is on box rest at the moment, he doesn't seem to mind that much but it's driving me crazy! To be brutally honest, turnout would be at the top of my priorities at a yard, even if it was just an hour a day, and if this was likely to be a regular occurrence (and let's face it, the weather is unlikely to improve for the next couple of months) I would be looking to move. It's worth baring in mind that you are paying for the turnout - there are yards near us with  very limited turnout, but this is reflected in the price.


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## be positive (17 February 2014)

Pigeon said:



			My Pip is on box rest at the moment, he doesn't seem to mind that much but it's driving me crazy! To be brutally honest, turnout would be at the top of my priorities at a yard, even if it was just an hour a day, and if this was likely to be a regular occurrence (and let's face it, the weather is unlikely to improve for the next couple of months) I would be looking to move. It's worth baring in mind that you are paying for the turnout - there are yards near us with  very limited turnout, but this is reflected in the price.
		
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I am turning out but restricting as we are on clay, I will not sacrifice my school if it gets destroyed there is not enough money available to put it right unlike the fields which will recover with less expenditure but I am lucky I have no DIY liveries so turn out and bring in to suit and exercise to keep them settled. The little I would get from DIY's would never pay to put right the damage if they insisted on daily turnout from dawn to dusk, they may be paying for turnout but with this weather continuing many yards may decide to stop doing cheap livery as the figures will not add up, a yard near me has just given up doing DIY for this reason, if all weather turnouts need to be provided someone has to pay and at the average of around £120 per month for DIY the YO's may need to increase costs significantly in order to cover the extra costs involved, owners may have to start paying a more realistic rate.


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## putasocinit (17 February 2014)

wish i paid £120, more like £250 DIY excluding hay and bedding, and no free bale of hay because i cant turn out and there we go again another post which knocks the DIY'er,


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## be positive (17 February 2014)

putasocinit said:



			wish i paid £120, more like £250 DIY excluding hay and bedding, and no free bale of hay because i cant turn out and there we go again another post which knocks the DIY'er,
		
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That is expensive and I would expect to have turnout all year for that price, if I could fill my boxes with DIY's prepared to pay that I would be happy, offer free assistance and let them turnout knowing that the costs of putting the fields right are well covered but not many people would pay that for the use of a box, field and arena, the local yard that has stopped doing DIY was only getting £100 per month and it was not worth it, if they had doubled the price the liveries would have looked elsewhere.


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## Lizzie66 (17 February 2014)

Most livery charges have very little profit margin in them and with the fields so wet you can't blame YO not wanting horses turned out on them. If you are maoning now about lack of turnout just imagine how much you will moan come spring when there is no grass and you have to supplement it with hay !
Then you'll be expecting YO to provide it foc or you will move to somewhere with grass.
If we had a winter like the other year where it was -10 and everthing was solid ice would you still be wanting to turnout ?


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## putasocinit (17 February 2014)

Lizzie66, i have turn out in an aw school and i am supplementing with nhay, and i have good doers so happy to have limited grass in summer. I also have first hand experience on how to sort out a trashed field, rolling,harrowing, throwing some seed down, it really isnt that big a job, i am thinking more of those that cannot turn out at.

I am referring to what i pay in livery as to the comment that diyers want it cheap, no we dont, we want to be able to do our horses ourselves, and some will pay the higher price tag for that, but i do expect to be treated with a bit of respect because of the amount i pay and yes i more than anyone else respects your property, and will repeair what is broke, but today was an example of my frustration, we could turn out today so mine went in to the boggyest 1/3 acre with no grass, whilst the other livery who only pays £100 went to the top field which is dry and is about 1/2 acre and why was that because he got turned out with yms welsh a pony. So dont talk about the colour of money, talk about if your face fits.  Oh the other liverys horse has trashed the fences already that is why its going out with yms welsh pony, it ran around this morning doing somersaults, whilst mine had their head down grazing, whose trashing whose field......signing out, rant over sorry just get annoyed


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## Fun Times (17 February 2014)

What has struck me most about this thread is the amount of somewhat sanctimonious people who seem so keen to point out their amazing horse skills and berate those who are struggling with horses that are demonstrating high spirits or frustration at being confined. To the first group, congratulations, you are truly awesome but alas not every horse in the country can be owned by you. To the second group, you have my sympathy as must be very difficult to deal with no or limited turnout.


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## Amymay (17 February 2014)

Fun Times said:



			What has struck me most about this thread is the amount of somewhat sanctimonious people who seem so keen to point out their amazing horse skills and berate those who are struggling with horses that are demonstrating high spirits or frustration at being confined. To the first group, congratulations, you are truly awesome but alas not every horse in the country can be owned by you. To the second group, you have my sympathy as must be very difficult to deal with no or limited turnout.
		
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Nail on head.


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## Holly Hocks (17 February 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			no. dont buy a horse unless you are a good enough rider to ride THAT horse in less than ideal circumstances.

and yard staff are paid to deal with the horses. if the owner does not dare, or cannot, get on and work it-pay the yard staff to do that too.
how hard is this?!

if you have a horse that cannot work in the school then surely the options are:
1. do nothng, but dont whine about resulting hyper horse.
2.move yards to somewhere it can go in a field
3.pay someone to hack it.

there is zero point going on and on about needing turnout if you cannot provide it. work with the alternatives.
		
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Yard staff?  None
School?  Flooded because the drainage is crap and the surface is now so boggy it is dangerous
Fields?  Bogging
Work?  7.30/8am - after 5pm and sometimes out of hours work.

It's not so easy with less than the perfect facilities you appear to have.  There are also NO other yards near me within travelling distance with any better facilities.  I accept that you have to work with what you have, and fortunately neither of my horses have been particularly bad, but there is no point in telling people to get on with it when they don't have the confidence, facilities or alternative yards to move their horses to.   It appears that you are very fortunate but there are many who are not.


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## stencilface (17 February 2014)

amymay said:



			Nail on head.
		
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Yup, well done


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## justabob (17 February 2014)

Fun Times said:



			What has struck me most about this thread is the amount of somewhat sanctimonious people who seem so keen to point out their amazing horse skills and berate those who are struggling with horses that are demonstrating high spirits or frustration at being confined. To the first group, congratulations, you are truly awesome but alas not every horse in the country can be owned by you. To the second group, you have my sympathy as must be very difficult to deal with no or limited turnout.
		
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Not awesome at all, feel the fear and just have to get on with it! I am not at a livery yard, just protecting the ground for when the horses want to go out. At the moment they don't want to, and we see no point in having horses stand by the gate. This dreadful weather will not last forever and fields need to have a chance to dry out and offer grazing in the spring. This winter has been extreme at best. Nobody should think that their routine can carry on as normal, we all need to adjust to the situation, in the hope that we can turn our horses out in decent ground and have good summer grazing. With all the welfare issues that abound at the moment, having a well fed horse standing in a good stable does not sound too bad to me.


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## charlie76 (17 February 2014)

I have managed to keep my fields open, until today. The horses have had enough. They are coming to get hurt so I shut the fields today. However, I have offered my liveries a realistically priced package of and lib hay, lunging , hacking , hand grazing and walking daily. They all seem more than happy with what I have offered. We actually still have grass but the horses just fence walk and kick off.


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## doriangrey (17 February 2014)

justabob said:



			Not awesome at all, feel the fear and just have to get on with it! I am not at a livery yard, just protecting the ground for when the horses want to go out. At the moment they don't want to, and we see no point in having horses stand by the gate. This dreadful weather will not last forever and fields need to have a chance to dry out and offer grazing in the spring. This winter has been extreme at best. Nobody should think that their routine can carry on as normal, we all need to adjust to the situation, in the hope that we can turn our horses out in decent ground and have good summer grazing. With all the welfare issues that abound at the moment, having a well fed horse standing in a good stable does not sound too bad to me.
		
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Then why call people incompetent?  I doubt this thread would have gone on half as far apart from that comment.  To me this was a thread about having no turnout/facilities even decent riding due to extreme weather conditions.


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## Fun Times (17 February 2014)

justabob said:



			Not awesome at all, feel the fear and just have to get on with it! I am not at a livery yard, just protecting the ground for when the horses want to go out. At the moment they don't want to, and we see no point in having horses stand by the gate. This dreadful weather will not last forever and fields need to have a chance to dry out and offer grazing in the spring. This winter has been extreme at best. Nobody should think that their routine can carry on as normal, we all need to adjust to the situation, in the hope that we can turn our horses out in decent ground and have good summer grazing. With all the welfare issues that abound at the moment, having a well fed horse standing in a good stable does not sound too bad to me.
		
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 Noted. But OP's thread starts with words "I am struggling and unsure what to do next" or similar. I suspect she was rather hoping for useful suggestions or, failing that, a modicum of sympathy or failing that a nod that things arent ideal. Instead more than a few people seem to have taken the opportunity to suggest that those who are struggling are incompetent or should never have bought that particular horse. My friends horse bucks. Mine does not. I do not feel it necessary to point out that she is a bit crap and I am a bit wonderful.


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## Girlracer (17 February 2014)

Perhaps it's just me, but... so many of you have commented on how your horses are expected to behave under saddle no matter how fresh they are (understandably) yet are happy to accept they may be un-manageable and dangerous to handle on the ground? That makes no sense to me, of course every horse is different but I have put the work in to my horses both on the ground and under saddle (well apart from the baby, who isn't backed yet) and they are both exceptionally behaved in any situation (including the current no turnout and horrendous weather conditions). They have to display self control around me, whether on the end of a lead rope or the end of the rein.


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## maccachic (17 February 2014)

You guys are funny - if its rains over here horses still stay in field yes they get muddy but they recover and Ive had to get long boots for one paddock but horses are still much happier/healthier when they can move than when they are locked up.  I hate stabling my horses I would love an open barn they can come and go from but trees provide good shelter in the absence of a lotto win.

I really struggled with my horse being locked up while I was grooming in Ireland and I always gave him a chance to blow off steam loose in the arena before I got on him.


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## charlie76 (17 February 2014)

All the horses in our yard are more civilised to ride and handle without turn out!!


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## JustMeThen (17 February 2014)

I'm with you. Our gateways are atrocious but the fields themselves are ok and when they dry up, they'll be rolled and they'll be fine. As long as there's enough room for the number of horses in them, they always come right, in my experience...

Sorry, that doesn't help with the post, did you say they're not letting you lunge either? Seems a bit harsh... I'd lead him out in hand to have some grass if there is anywhere, to chill him out a bit... and ask again about school turnout, seems really hard and I hope you can find something that helps x


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## justabob (17 February 2014)

doriangrey said:



			Then why call people incompetent?  I doubt this thread would have gone on half as far apart from that comment.  To me this was a thread about having no turnout/facilities even decent riding due to extreme weather conditions.
		
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Ridiculous reply to my post, please excuse me for the thread to have been prolonged due to my response. I responded accordingly as I saw fit to do so. When did you suddenly become Admin.


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## Mince Pie (17 February 2014)

maccachic said:



			You guys are funny - if its rains over here horses still stay in field yes they get muddy but they recover and Ive had to get long boots for one paddock but horses are still much happier/healthier when they can move than when they are locked up.  I hate stabling my horses I would love an open barn they can come and go from but trees provide good shelter in the absence of a lotto win.

I really struggled with my horse being locked up while I was grooming in Ireland and I always gave him a chance to blow off steam loose in the arena before I got on him.
		
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The problem here is A) the sheer amount of rain we've had, in some places I think we've had about 3/4 dry days (as in 24 hours) in 3 months, it's just relentless. And B) the ground, we're on very heavy, sticky clay at my yard and you'll either end up losing shoes, busting a tendon or breaking a leg due to the sticky mud and steep slope. 
I don't think I've ever had such reduced turnout, I'm hating it but thankfully my boy is a saint, the YO is turning out in the school, and I'm able to ride nearly every day (sharers do the other 2 days).


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## JustMeThen (17 February 2014)

Me? I'm just tanking my lucky stars I am not this poor poor chap. 
http://www.itv.com/news/west/update/2014-02-12/we-join-farmer-on-his-return-home/[/QUOTE]

That's heartbreaking, poor, poor man x


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## nikkimariet (17 February 2014)

Girlracer said:



			Perhaps it's just me, but... so many of you have commented on how your horses are expected to behave under saddle no matter how fresh they are (understandably) yet are happy to accept they may be un-manageable and dangerous to handle on the ground?
		
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Exactly what I thought!



eleanor79 said:



			Me? I'm just tanking my lucky stars I am not this poor poor chap. 
http://www.itv.com/news/west/update/2014-02-12/we-join-farmer-on-his-return-home/

Click to expand...

Poor man, I don't know how he is so strong about it. Not my home or livelihood but had me in bits


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## justabob (17 February 2014)

eleanor79 said:



			Me? I'm just tanking my lucky stars I am not this poor poor chap. 
http://www.itv.com/news/west/update/2014-02-12/we-join-farmer-on-his-return-home/

Click to expand...

That's heartbreaking, poor, poor man x[/QUOTE]
Puts every little thing in perspective doesn't it??


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## doriangrey (18 February 2014)

justabob said:



			Ridiculous reply to my post, please excuse me for the thread to have been prolonged due to my response. I responded accordingly as I saw fit to do so. When did you suddenly become Admin.
		
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Your usual, charming self I see.  In my defense I don't think it's ridiculous to point out that your calling people incompetent was neccessary considering the circumstances they are finding themselves in. The mutual back-slapping that went on later in the thread actually set off my gag-reflex - ugh.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (18 February 2014)

doriangrey said:



			Your usual, charming self I see.  In my defense I don't think it's ridiculous to point out that your calling people incompetent was neccessary considering the circumstances they are finding themselves in. The mutual back-slapping that went on later in the thread actually set off my gag-reflex - ugh.
		
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oh do lighten up! if you are refering to myself and JAB-its not back slapping its almost laughing at each other fgs!

the things is, people have 3 options:
1. stay put -but thats their choice
2, change routine to accomodate difficult circumstances
3.move elsewhere

what is irritating is when people CHOSE 1 and then whine and moan. If you really want it to be differen, pull your finger out and DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!whether that is paying someone to ride for you, working through your lunch hour and using that hour to ride before or after work, taking a few half days of annual leave to work the horse, move yards-there is always an option but people seem determined to stay stuck in the rut and then moan.


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## Merrymoles (18 February 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			oh do lighten up! if you are refering to myself and JAB-its not back slapping its almost laughing at each other fgs!

the things is, people have 3 options:
1. stay put -but thats their choice
2, change routine to accomodate difficult circumstances
3.move elsewhere

what is irritating is when people CHOSE 1 and then whine and moan. If you really want it to be differen, pull your finger out and DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!whether that is paying someone to ride for you, working through your lunch hour and using that hour to ride before or after work, taking a few half days of annual leave to work the horse, move yards-there is always an option but people seem determined to stay stuck in the rut and then moan.
		
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I thought the whole point of this thread was that OP was looking at Option 2 and seeking ideas on how to achieve that.


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## Patterdale (18 February 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			oh do lighten up! if you are refering to myself and JAB-its not back slapping its almost laughing at each other fgs!

the things is, people have 3 options:
1. stay put -but thats their choice
2, change routine to accomodate difficult circumstances
3.move elsewhere

what is irritating is when people CHOSE 1 and then whine and moan. If you really want it to be differen, pull your finger out and DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!whether that is paying someone to ride for you, working through your lunch hour and using that hour to ride before or after work, taking a few half days of annual leave to work the horse, move yards-there is always an option but people seem determined to stay stuck in the rut and then moan.
		
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There's a difference between moaning and asking for suggestions and advice on dealing with extreme conditions. 
It's not always possible to 'just move' either. 

You do come across as pretty sanctimonious.


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## Tnavas (18 February 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			Cut out all hard food .
Feed hay only and soak it if necessary .
Don't get stressed its silly and does not help never stress over what you can't change .
Things to try 
A stable mirror 
A turnip to chew on 
A radio
You can give different low energy fibre sources things like oat straw chop , low calorie alfalfa / straw blocks or Timothy hay blocks ( can get them online from halleys ) I am using these ATM as we have restricted turnout .
Look at this as a exercise in teaching the horse to accept this life style many horses at some point in their lives must accept box rest look at this as a exercise in making that easier if it should ever happen.
Having horses with no turnout but exercised is hard work for the owner but it's mid Feb it won't be for long.
Exercising  twice a day and leading out in hand regularly ( even its just round the yard ) will help.
		
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Definitely agree with the above - I've worked with many horses over the years who are never turned out. 

Feed according to work load.

No playtime out = reduce energy foods


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## Hetsmum (18 February 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			oh do lighten up! if you are refering to myself and JAB-its not back slapping its almost laughing at each other fgs!

the things is, people have 3 options:
1. stay put -but thats their choice
2, change routine to accomodate difficult circumstances
3.move elsewhere

what is irritating is when people CHOSE 1 and then whine and moan. If you really want it to be differen, pull your finger out and DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!whether that is paying someone to ride for you, working through your lunch hour and using that hour to ride before or after work, taking a few half days of annual leave to work the horse, move yards-there is always an option but people seem determined to stay stuck in the rut and then moan.
		
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Have you ever heard the word empathy?............thought not..........
Not everyone can ride before/after work.  Maybe most people are too far away from their yards to get there in their lunch hour.  Maybe some people have young children or even sick children or partners that they have to care for.  Unlike you who seems to be perfect (in every way) most of us are human.  The thing that stuck in my mind particulaly about the OP way that she SPECIFICALLY chose the yard she did because it offered ALL YEAR ROUND TURNOUT.  That in my opinion is where the YO has fallen down.  I know the weather has been exeptional etc etc but if you claim to offer it then you should blinking well offer it!  Create a 'trash paddock', allow school turnout or at the very least lungeing.  I also don't believe the it is acceptable to confine a horse to a stable for any length of time unless it is in the best interests of the horse (ie box rest - not the landowners convenience)
I am not in the position that the OP is.  I am very very lucky (and count my lucky stars daily) that my horses can go out everyday without restrictions.  I am also lucky that I can get up at 4.30am to ride one of them in the dark to exercise him because
a) He is very trustworthy to hack out in the dark
b) I have no children/other commitments in my life
Would I be hacking out a green 4 year old in the dark on my own.......err no.  And before you jump on the 'well move then'  I could simply not afford to move to have a school and those sort of facilities..........

Before you jump on people perhaps try to walk a mile or so in their shoes.......you might find they don't wear UGGS.........


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## McCauley (18 February 2014)

Do you know this thread actually got me thinking as to why i'd moved on from previous yards in the past and the majority of the time it was because of the yard promising All Year Turnout (which is a major factor for me),..only to become more and more 'restricted' during the winter months.  The winter weather has never ever been this bad as it is this winter, but these yards shut their fields off the moment rainfall occurred.  It was very frustrating for the horses (and expensive for the humans too in many cases)...so,..i voted with my feet i guess and moved on.

Please understand i realise what this country is going through weather wise at the moment and that it's unbelievable what we've had in terms of rain fall/winds etc., and really really feel for those that are suffering at the moment.  I certainly hope and pray that this weather pattern is not a sign of 'things to come' in terms of winter weather in the UK...if it is..i guess livery yards need to seriously consider changing their turnout facilities to accommodate the winter weather patterns without horses having to stay in so much...

Hope everyone who is going through having to keep their horses in at the moment, are trying to keep their chins up and muddle on through...stay safe please.

McC x


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (18 February 2014)

so if you cant move the horse you move heaven and earth to adapt the routine?

people have given many many options mostly revolving around increasing time working/out the box/mental stimulation via more work, more intense work,hand walking, hand grazing, work twice a day instead of once.

apparently there are people who dont like riding in the rain, or the dark, or who just plain CBA to do that.....................

buy a coat, buy some temporary lighting, pay someone to do it in the day,get up earlier, go to bed a bit later, and as for just CBA, words fail me......its a short term problem and if people are REALLY worried about the horse (as opposed to just expecting the YO to magic a solution to the rain out their arse), they would be doing everything possible to try and follow some of the advice.

excuse after excuse after excuse-thats what is irritating the pants off some people.

people think its acceptable to let horses blow off steam on an expensive menage surface, because they "CBA" to ride more often instead etc..............................


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (18 February 2014)

Hetsmum said:



			Have you ever heard the word empathy?............thought not..........
Not everyone can ride before/after work.  Maybe most people are too far away from their yards to get there in their lunch hour.  Maybe some people have young children or even sick children or partners that they have to care for.  Unlike you who seems to be perfect (in every way) most of us are human.  The thing that stuck in my mind particulaly about the OP way that she SPECIFICALLY chose the yard she did because it offered ALL YEAR ROUND TURNOUT.  That in my opinion is where the YO has fallen down.  I know the weather has been exeptional etc etc but if you claim to offer it then you should blinking well offer it!  Create a 'trash paddock', allow school turnout or at the very least lungeing.  I also don't believe the it is acceptable to confine a horse to a stable for any length of time unless it is in the best interests of the horse (ie box rest - not the landowners convenience)
I am not in the position that the OP is.  I am very very lucky (and count my lucky stars daily) that my horses can go out everyday without restrictions.  I am also lucky that I can get up at 4.30am to ride one of them in the dark to exercise him because
a) He is very trustworthy to hack out in the dark
b) I have no children/other commitments in my life
Would I be hacking out a green 4 year old in the dark on my own.......err no.  And before you jump on the 'well move then'  I could simply not afford to move to have a school and those sort of facilities..........

Before you jump on people perhaps try to walk a mile or so in their shoes.......you might find they don't wear UGGS.........

Click to expand...

i quite assure you that life here chez sparkle is far from perfect and does actually include an incredibly(terminally) ill family member who cannot do anything herself and cant really be left unattended so its not like we blast through every day in a shower of pink fairy dust-we are going balls to the wall to stand still also.

this is actually a perfect example of my point-if you cannot make sure your horse has adequate exercise for the short term turnout situation, pay someone else to do it in the daylight. or get a sharer who works different hours to you, or a competant teenager on half term etc-so many things to try before giving up.


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## abb123 (18 February 2014)

I've just moved from an area that has quite good winter turnout to an area that is known for its terrible clay soil and being very wet. I've been lucky that I found a tiny private yard where I have a large gravel area that my two can go out into. So all winter I have had 24/7 'turnout'. 

I've just started looking for a livery yard as I wanted the company and a school to work in. I'm gobsmacked at the acceptance of no turn out. Most yards that I've looked at have just said no winter turnout and no provision for anything else. I can't understand why in an area that you know year-in-year-out that the fields won't hold up to winter turn out that no yards have thought about an alternative.

I'm started to think that I'll be better off staying where I am and sacrificing a school.


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## TGM (18 February 2014)

Flosii said:



			Interesting response here.

For those that are remotly interested I managed to get him turned loose in a small pen that he had a little bit of a buck and jump around in and rode him out yesterday and he was back to normal chilled self. (It was noted by another person at the yard how Highly strung he was,) but once got a little more room he was a bit happier.

I hope that walking in hand, being led from another and riding in evening (if electrics and school are upto it) he will be back. At the end of last week I was just very very scard that being in had blown his mind. For thoses suggesting using it as practise for box rest, this would be a completely different circumstance, and I can not completely say I would manage it differently because I dont know what the circumstance may be, but I would most likely handle it differently.
		
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I am glad to hear you found a solution to your problem and your horse is feeling happier and behaving better for it!  Such a shame that your update has got lost amidst all the argy bargy on here!  For what it is worth, I don't think you were whinging or moaning at all and just posted on here to try and find a solution to a problem that was quite rightly worrying you.  Let's hope the weather dries up soon!


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## ester (18 February 2014)

I do think everyone is entitled to a moan and to see if anyone has any ideas on things they could do that they haven't thought of yet.


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## catkin (18 February 2014)

OP - pleased to hear that things are improving a little. Shame that the thread has got a bit judgemental in places as there have been some nuggets of good advice in it - and its been a very useful thread as I'm sure its made a lot of us think about what we may need to do in future.

When this current weather and the clean-up is over one thing I am most certainly going to do is to spend the summer 'weather-proofing' my horses: make sure that their training is up to scratch on the things that they may be called upon to do in another bout of bad weather such as ride-and-lead or hand-walking, in addition to reviewing management and feed.


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## RunToEarth (18 February 2014)

justabob said:



			Puts every little thing in perspective doesn't it??
		
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Certainly does. I'm so proud to be a young farmer this week and be part of the forage aid going down there to help all the farmers. Not having any turnout for your horse is rubbish but just imagine your entire world under water which isn't doe to recede for weeks.


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## criso (18 February 2014)

Hetsmum said:



			The thing that stuck in my mind particulaly about the OP way that she SPECIFICALLY chose the yard she did because it offered ALL YEAR ROUND TURNOUT.  That in my opinion is where the YO has fallen down.  I know the weather has been exeptional etc etc but if you claim to offer it then you should blinking well offer it! 

Before you jump on people perhaps try to walk a mile or so in their shoes.......you might find they don't wear UGGS.........

Click to expand...

If the yard on question has been able to offer all  year turnout up to now and in this exceptional weather has closed the fields for the first time then I think a bit of sympathy and walking in their shoes is called for here too.  

If they have always had fields they can use, they won't have contingency arrangements in place and it can be tricky to magic alternatives at short notice.

I just don't think it is very helpful to criticise under these circumstances and say move when you may find everyone is the area is in the same boat.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (18 February 2014)

RunToEarth said:



			Certainly does. I'm so proud to be a young farmer this week and be part of the forage aid going down there to help all the farmers. Not having any turnout for your horse is rubbish but just imagine your entire world under water which isn't doe to recede for weeks.
		
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its mind boggling, every time i see it on the TV/FB its just heart breaking and jaw dropping and insane all in the same breath


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## Flame_ (18 February 2014)

eleanor79 said:



			Me? I'm just tanking my lucky stars I am not this poor poor chap. 
http://www.itv.com/news/west/update/2014-02-12/we-join-farmer-on-his-return-home/

Click to expand...

That's heartbreaking, poor, poor man x[/QUOTE]



justabob said:



			That's heartbreaking, poor, poor man x
		
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Puts every little thing in perspective doesn't it??[/QUOTE]

Yes poor guy. There's always someone with bigger, worse problems than us, it doesn't make individual, lesser problems insignificant! There are people dying without water in the third world, maybe that guy should remember to count himself lucky that he's surrounded by the stuff (sarcasm, btw, kind of)

You can keep a sense of perspective at the same time as giving discussion and consideration to less major issues.


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## stencilface (18 February 2014)

Flame_ said:



			You can keep a sense of perspective at the same time as giving discussion and consideration to less major issues.
		
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Hey!

Not on HHO you can't


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## tabithakat64 (18 February 2014)

RunToEarth said:



			No alternative to being on a yard over grazed with no turnout and no use of facilities so that horse was in 23 hours a day? Quite simply I would not have a horse in that situation. No alternative? No one puts a gun to my head, I have horses for the fun of it all, not to be on some squalid livery yard with naff all to enjoy.
		
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This ^


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## putasocinit (18 February 2014)

Hear Hear Runtoearth.  Being from africa we are used to droughts, saving bath water to water the garden, refilling half empty water buckets, just picking out the bits of hay etc, we are also used to having fields with not a blade of grass in, but the horses still went out and had a run and a roll, their time for eating was in the stable when they had adlib hay and a good feed.  They were happy and healthy, but they still were able to be horses.


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## twiggy2 (18 February 2014)

abb123 said:



			I'm gobsmacked at the acceptance of no turn out. Most yards that I've looked at have just said no winter turnout and no provision for anything else. I can't understand why in an area that you know year-in-year-out that the fields won't hold up to winter turn out that no yards have thought about an alternative.
		
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well said, people seem to have forgotten what a horse needs to keep as healthy as possible, because one of those things is to be able to move about at will and eat from the ground whilst moving, movement stimulates the gut and helps prevent colic, that just one of the most obvious things it does not take into account a horses mental requirements


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## amandap (18 February 2014)

Flosii, sorry haven't read the thread as I don't want to get involved with the turnout question but wanted to suggest you feed some gastric and gut support as well if not already. Stress is a big cause of ulcers.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (18 February 2014)

tabithakat64 said:



			This ^
		
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and another "yup" from me.


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## ester (18 February 2014)

Flame_ said:



			You can keep a sense of perspective at the same time as giving discussion and consideration to less major issues.
		
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stencilface said:



			Hey!

Not on HHO you can't 

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## Tnavas (19 February 2014)

I wonder why some of you stress so much about your not getting turnout. I worked for several decades in various yards around the world where horses were never turned out - my own included. I never met one that didn't cope with being stabled 24/7. They were worked every day for around an hour or more. The work was varied but the liveries in General did one hours trotting on the roads. 

The difference I believe is that as grooms we accepted that this was the way the horses were to be kept. They had deep beds, ad lib hay and sensible diets of basic grains and sugar beet. They didn't get every supplement under the sun and yet were extremely healthy and mentally happy. If new to being stabled they were initially fed just on hay and feed and work load assessed and adapted to suit their behaviour. Occasionally we might be allowed to let them free in the indoor arena, this generally only happened when the ground was too icy to ride on. On those days their feeds were cut right back so that they didn't get silly.
Horses do cope, it's often the rider that doesn't. TBH why would you want to turnout your horse in the current conditions where they risk injury from the deep mud, slipping and not being able to stop in time on reaching a fence line.
Cut food right back, feed more hay and if possible ride for longer each day.


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## charlie76 (19 February 2014)

In think everyone would do well to have some understanding with the yard owners. This weather has been exceptional and most I imagine, like me, have tried their best to keep horses out. 
My reason for shutting the fields for now isn't to do with saving my fields, I am more than happy to harrow, roll and seed them. I shut them as there was a risk of serious injury to the horses as they were continuously running about and skidding in mud and I could for see an accident, and for the safety of the staff and owners having to catch them, one was knocked over in the desperation of the horses coming in. 
Apart from the gateway s my fields still have grass . 
I tried hay, they still dont settle. 
Luckily I have understanding liveries that would rather I kept their horses and them safe for a couple of weeks. 
This is the first time I have ever said  no turn out. 
I have cut feed and increased forage accordingly and I have offered to work, walk and hand graze horses at a very very inexpensive cost so they can relax knowing the horses are not locked in 24/7

This weather is exceptional.

Yes fields will recover but a broken leg might not.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (19 February 2014)

Tnavas said:



			I wonder why some of you stress so much about your not getting turnout. I worked for several decades in various yards around the world where horses were never turned out - my own included. I never met one that didn't cope with being stabled 24/7. They were worked every day for around an hour or more. The work was varied but the liveries in General did one hours trotting on the roads. 

The difference I believe is that as grooms we accepted that this was the way the horses were to be kept. They had deep beds, ad lib hay and sensible diets of basic grains and sugar beet. They didn't get every supplement under the sun and yet were extremely healthy and mentally happy. If new to being stabled they were initially fed just on hay and feed and work load assessed and adapted to suit their behaviour. Occasionally we might be allowed to let them free in the indoor arena, this generally only happened when the ground was too icy to ride on. On those days their feeds were cut right back so that they didn't get silly.
Horses do cope, it's often the rider that doesn't. TBH why would you want to turnout your horse in the current conditions where they risk injury from the deep mud, slipping and not being able to stop in time on reaching a fence line.
Cut food right back, feed more hay and if possible ride for longer each day.
		
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yes!common sense approach!


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## Meowy Catkin (19 February 2014)

There are some horses that wont accept stabling - I used to own one. I know that she was an exception to the norm, but I was lucky to be able to keep her out 24/7 either in the field or the sand school (a rare occurrence).

I have one now that will just jump out unless you put a grill on the door.


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## Merrymoles (19 February 2014)

It might be common sense but there is no "one size fits all" on this question - everyone has different horses, different facilities and different problems.
My horse gets no hard feed but ad lib hay. Therefore if he had to come 24/7 in for the winter, I could not change his feed regime, apart from cutting down on hay which would be a last resort as I believe keeping the gut active is important.
I am on a small private yard with no staff, no access for visitors during the day and nowhere to ride at the moment, therefore upping his workload would be almost impossible. I am only there in the dark during the week.
Yes, I would be able to cope as I know that marching him around the yard for 30 mins in hand and then giving him a good brush are good "de-stressers" for him but it wouldn't work for everyone.
Moving to a professionally-run yard with staff and facilities would doubtless make life much easier but I wouldn't want to do it for the sake of one wet winter. There is nowhere like that within easy reach and my budget would be stretched to breaking point.
I, too, have worked with horses that were always in 24/7 and I completely agree that it is "do-able" - where problems arise is when horses that are used to one routine - eg 12 hours turnout a day - suddenly have to be in 24/7.
Finding strategies for that eventuality is not always easy - even the simple ones like "move", "get a sharer", "pay someone to ride in the day" take time to achieve.
Finally, I see both sides of the argument (livery v landowner) clearly - what is needed is a bit of patience and a proper common sense approach to solving any particular horse's issues.


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## ChesnutsRoasting (19 February 2014)

I amazed at those posters who believe it acceptable for horses not to have any turnout - ever. The point of turnout is for the horse to have freedom - freedom to relax, to behave as a horse. I feel bloody sorry for those horses that never have that opportunity and as long as they remain obedient then all is fine and its accepted. What a sh***y existence.


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## Goldenstar (19 February 2014)

blazingsaddles said:



			I amazed at those posters who believe it acceptable for horses not to have any turnout - ever. The point of turnout is for the horse to have freedom - freedom to relax, to behave as a horse. I feel bloody sorry for those horses that never have that opportunity and as long as they remain obedient then all is fine and its accepted. What a sh***y existence.
		
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This is not a thread about horses not ever getting turnout it a thread about what to do and how to manage when for reasons aside your control there is no turn out .
I don't what you do with your horses so they don't relax in their stables mine all are very relaxed and happy in their stables .
Teaching horses to be stabled is as important ( perhaps even more ) as them being confident with be ridden .


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## ChesnutsRoasting (19 February 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			This is not a thread about horses not ever getting turnout it a thread about what to do and how to manage when for reasons aside your control there is no turn out .

There are comments regarding never turning out, hence my reply. Not that I should have to explain myself.


I don't what you do with your horses so they don't relax in their stables mine all are very relaxed and happy in their stables .


I'm not sure where I said mine don't relax in their stables?
My horses relax in their paddock by rolling in mud, playing with and grooming field mates, mooching where they want to mooch and grazing, with a bit of sleep thrown in. 


Teaching horses to be stabled is as important ( perhaps even more ) as them being confident with be ridden .
		
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Really? I suppose it is, if one never turns the poor thing out!


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## Goldenstar (19 February 2014)

blazingsaddles said:



			Really? I suppose it is, if one never turns the poor thing out!
		
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Of course it's important it's part of their life .
Even if kept out they may need to go it the vets be hospitalised many things require the horse to accept stabling .
That's why I invest time and effort making sure they are confident and happy with


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## ChesnutsRoasting (19 February 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			Of course it's important it's part of their life .
Even if kept out they may need to go it the vets be hospitalised many things require the horse to accept stabling .
That's why I invest time and effort making sure they are confident and happy with
		
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You seem to believe I'm anti-stabling. I am not, but I am pro-turnout. Of course there may come a time when a horse needs stabling long term due to injury/illness but to state it is more important to teach a horse to be confident when stabled than to be confident when ridden is absurd.


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## Moomin1 (19 February 2014)

blazingsaddles said:



			You seem to believe I'm anti-stabling. I am not, but I am pro-turnout. Of course there may come a time when a horse needs stabling long term due to injury/illness but to state it is more important to teach a horse to be confident when stabled than to be confident when ridden is absurd.
		
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I disagree with your last point - it is far more beneficial for a horse to be confident when stabled than it is when ridden if you have to choose between the two. The former could well be a matter of life or death for a horse if it required emergency stabling due to injury etc, whereas a horse not feeling as comfortable and confident when ridden is an issue which is far more likely to be just be an inconvenience to those who wish to ride it.


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## putasocinit (19 February 2014)

Its not a case of horses being well behaved and relaxed in the stable, its a case of being able to move freely, releasing their joints and stretching their tendons, this is what horses were designed to do, not stand still swapping hind legs to change position, what about copd and arthritis etc.


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## ChesnutsRoasting (19 February 2014)

Moomin1 said:



			I disagree with your last point - it is far more beneficial for a horse to be confident when stabled than it is when ridden if you have to choose between the two. The former could well be a matter of life or death for a horse if it required emergency stabling due to injury etc, whereas a horse not feeling as comfortable and confident when ridden is an issue which is far more likely to be just be an inconvenience to those who wish to ride it.
		
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Personally, I would rather have a confident riding horse than a confident stabled horse. I ride more often than I stable!


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## Flosii (19 February 2014)

Ok so for those that did not miss the point of my thread and are not too busy arguing.

I would like to just say that I have been walking my boy out in the mornings for 10 mins, leg stretch, and I have been riding everyday (albeit in a bog) but interestingly enough, my pony's best friend has come back from being away for two weeks and he has been going ride and lead every afternoon (with said friend). He is back to his normal self.

So I think with a little bit of a bigger pen for kick around at the weekend and his mate home we are back on track!! Very relived.

Thank you to those that have been helpful. and I am taking him ot at the weekend to be turned out!!!! 

I hope that everyone else that find themselves in difficult situations at this time manage to get things sorted too! (I sympathise with you all)


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## MotherOfChickens (19 February 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			This is not a thread about horses not ever getting turnout it a thread about what to do and how to manage when for reasons aside your control there is no turn out .
I don't what you do with your horses so they don't relax in their stables mine all are very relaxed and happy in their stables .
Teaching horses to be stabled is as important ( perhaps even more ) as them being confident with be ridden .
		
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FTW 

they need to be happy in for when they need to be in, they need to be happy seeing other horses come and go, need to be happy by themselves for short periods of time. otherwise how the heck do you expect them to go to comps, go to clinics/camp and be stabled elsewhere safely, hack alone etc etc? its part of their general education surely?


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## Goldenstar (19 February 2014)

blazingsaddles said:



			You seem to believe I'm anti-stabling. I am not, but I am pro-turnout. Of course there may come a time when a horse needs stabling long term due to injury/illness but to state it is more important to teach a horse to be confident when stabled than to be confident when ridden is absurd.
		
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Because well ridden horses easily learn to be ridden they enjoy it they like hacking about seeing stuff and learning to do things physically.
Learning to go into a stable alone which I do with mine just after weaning is the first big thing you teach them to accept that you can say is against their nature , 
introduce it right and the whole of the rest rest of stuff you teach them to do is easier for them .


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## Goldenstar (19 February 2014)

MotherOfChickens said:



			FTW 

they need to be happy in for when they need to be in, they need to be happy seeing other horses come and go, need to be happy by themselves for short periods of time. otherwise how the heck do you expect them to go to comps, go to clinics/camp and be stabled elsewhere safely, hack alone etc etc? its part of their general education surely?
		
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Of course it's a part of their education .
I expect my horses to go where I want them to go and do what I want them to do .
I spend a lot of time working with them to achieve it .

OP I am really glad it's going well , and it will be over soon the spring is coming .


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## justabob (19 February 2014)

blazingsaddles said:



			I amazed at those posters who believe it acceptable for horses not to have any turnout - ever. The point of turnout is for the horse to have freedom - freedom to relax, to behave as a horse. I feel bloody sorry for those horses that never have that opportunity and as long as they remain obedient then all is fine and its accepted. What a sh***y existence.
		
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I really don't think anyone said that horses should have  no turn out -ever -. Worse existence for them is to be standing fetlock deep in mud, no grass worth grazing this time of year and with wet heavy muddy rugs on. Horses in work used to always be stabled in the winter, fit, fed and in a routine. When did horses become so neurotic that they cannot be stabled? Is it a *new age* thing?


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## ChesnutsRoasting (19 February 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			Because well ridden horses easily learn to be ridden they enjoy it they like hacking about seeing stuff and learning to do things physically.
Learning to go into a stable alone which I do with mine just after weaning is the first big thing you teach them to accept that you can say is against their nature , 
introduce it right and the whole of the rest rest of stuff you teach them to do is easier for them .
		
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I don't disagree with these points per se, But I don't agree with it being more important than riding. Mine are used to going in and out on their own with no teaching effort on my part. Ridden work, well that's perhaps a different story!!!!


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## ChesnutsRoasting (19 February 2014)

justabob said:



			I really don't think anyone said that horses should have  no turn out -ever -. Worse existence for them is to be standing fetlock deep in mud, no grass worth grazing this time of year and with wet heavy muddy rugs on. Horses in work used to always be stabled in the winter, fit, fed and in a routine. When did horses become so neurotic that they cannot be stabled? Is it a *new age* thing?
		
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Actually, they did. Way back in the thread. Neurotic is not a word I used nor I hope, implied.


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## amandap (19 February 2014)

Flosii said:



			Ok so for those that did not miss the point of my thread and are not too busy arguing.

I would like to just say that I have been walking my boy out in the mornings for 10 mins, leg stretch, and I have been riding everyday (albeit in a bog) but interestingly enough, my pony's best friend has come back from being away for two weeks and he has been going ride and lead every afternoon (with said friend). He is back to his normal self.

So I think with a little bit of a bigger pen for kick around at the weekend and his mate home we are back on track!! Very relived.

Thank you to those that have been helpful. and I am taking him ot at the weekend to be turned out!!!! 

I hope that everyone else that find themselves in difficult situations at this time manage to get things sorted too! (I sympathise with you all)
		
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I so glad he's settled. Well done for doing all you can to help him.


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## Tnavas (19 February 2014)

justabob said:



			I really don't think anyone said that horses should have  no turn out -ever -. Worse existence for them is to be standing fetlock deep in mud, no grass worth grazing this time of year and with wet heavy muddy rugs on. Horses in work used to always be stabled in the winter, fit, fed and in a routine. When did horses become so neurotic that they cannot be stabled? Is it a *new age* thing?
		
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So agree with you there!  Horses are creatures of habit they enjoy a set routine - and that is a natural thing too. I remember when I worked in the New Forest a mare and foal who would be in the same place everyday around the forest. We'd see her several times each day, in a different spot but the same spot at the same time.

In the winter if the horse is in a comfortable stable, in the dry, with a deep bed and a net of hay they are usually happy. The box should be big enough that they can move around freely. Horses spend hours in the field just standing around shifting weight from one foot to the other. They don't spend all their time grazing and racing around.


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## Meowy Catkin (19 February 2014)

RE 'neurotic' horses that can't be stabled. I can only speak for my late mare, in her youth she had been a racehorse and was stabled full time then (bar work). She had then been a broodie and after that a companion for many, many years, never coming in ever. I got her as a nanny for youngstock, which she was perfectly suited to. I had enough land available for her to live out, so her aversion to being stabled was never an issue (I knew about it before she was gifted to me). You could leave her alone in the field with no fuss. 

Well meaning horsey friends never did believe me that she hated being stabled that much (and sometimes gave me unsolicited advice on how to solve the issue), until they saw her waiting for the Farrier (the only time she ever came down to the yard) and they would generally say that they didn't expect that she would be _that_ bad. Just being in the yard would cause constant shaking and teeth grinding. 

She never wore tie-dye rugs or badly knitted items in bright colours, so I don't think that she was a 'new age' hippy... but I could be wrong. 

OP - I'm glad that you have found a way to help your horse cope with the current situation.


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