# Natural Horsemanship vs Traditional methods



## TicTac (18 August 2008)

I am interested to know what people really think of 'Parelli' style horse training or are you a staunch traditionalist? I really enjoy watching Pat and Linda Parelli at work and can see totally how their methods work. I admire Richard Maxwell and enjoy his lecture/demos as he combines both natural and tradional methods with great sucess. What is it about 'Parelli' that seems to get people's backs up?

I can honestly say that I am achieving very good results by combining both methods of training with my horse. She has most definitely benefited and improved from Parelli style ground work.

I do believe that any method of training a horse not carried out correctly will have a detramental effect on it and have seen it with 'Natural' training as well as traditional.  

Would be interested to hear your views as I find it quite an emotive subject!


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## lilym (18 August 2008)

* off to get popcorn!".......


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## dwi (18 August 2008)

* pinches some of lilym's popcorn as sits firmly on the fence*


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## Rachel_M (18 August 2008)

I am not going to put myself into either boxes.

Basic horsemanship is what Parelli is a mutant of- Just without the price tag attached and I try and practice the best horsemanship that I know.


Parelli fans may see me as more traditional but, I want to say, that traditional isn't always bad.


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## Zaffy (18 August 2008)

Get ready for another balanced and reasoned debate .........


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## TicTac (18 August 2008)

All horse training comes with a price tag!


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## lucie1984 (18 August 2008)

*going to enjoy sitting on the fence and watching this one*

I would say i am in the middle though..


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## Rachel_M (18 August 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
All horse training comes with a price tag! 

[/ QUOTE ]

Very true but some price tags are far more than the actual thing is worth. 
	
	
		
		
	


	






EDITED TO SAY- Basic horsemanship doesn't need to have a price tag. By watching and learning from other horseman, which doesn't cost a thing, you can start to pick up the basics. Learning to understand your horse shouldn't cost money. It just takes effort on your part to listen to what your horse thrives on. Without the need of a 'carrot stick'.


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## CracklinRosie (18 August 2008)

Hhmmmm.

Surely you do what works for the horse?

They like us are all individuals and respond differently to different methods!!!!


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## Smurphy (18 August 2008)

There is nothing new about Pat Parelli's technique, I hate the term "natural".  It is good horsemanship not natural.

Parelli is a money making invention, who needs a carrot stick and a rope haltler at £90 a set, a carrot stick is an orange lunge whip ffs.


What gets my back up is ppl that are into the whole parelli thing cant see past it, and anything else is wrong, I get dirty looks for carrying a whip and riding in spurs (my horses have manners and respect for ppl, I dont need carrot stick or a 10ft line to handle my horses)


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## MooMoo (18 August 2008)

How about Monty Roberts and Kelly Marks? I'm not against Parelli - i find it really interesting. Although i can see why people would be put off by the expense. 
Has anyone read Kelly's 'Perfect Manners' book? I thought it was really good. Its a mix of natural horsemanship and applying it in a practical way. Plus you dont have to fork out lots of money.
Traditional methods are good to - unless they cause uneccessary stress or pain to the horse. 

Whatever works best for you i suppose


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## MooMoo (18 August 2008)

[ QUOTE ]

What gets my back up is ppl that are into the whole parelli thing cant see past it, and anything else is wrong, 

[/ QUOTE ]

To be fair though it wouldnt just be people who do parelli that are like that. I see your point though, i thinks its best to just be open minded and use a combination of different methods that work best for the particular horse.


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## Rachel_M (18 August 2008)

I agree, what ever works best. 
	
	
		
		
	


	





I said originally that I wouldn't put myself in the box because I try to do what is best for the horse and me. Some of those techniques are "traditional", others are more modern. I just go with the flow, if you will!

If I do something resembling what you call "natural horsemanship", it is because I am practising basic horsemanship.


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## JM07 (18 August 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
All horse training comes with a price tag! 

[/ QUOTE ]

watch and learn common (horse) sense costs nothing....

definition of carrot/stick........offer of incentive to do something combined with the threat of punishment.....

just about sums it up to me......


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## Leah3horses (18 August 2008)

Can I just say that there is a huge choice of methods and practioners in Natural Horsemanship, just as there are a huge choice of trainers in Traditional methods.Parelli for me and a lot of other educated NH advocates is not typical of modern NH and there is a huge difference between Parelli and more low key,individual ways of practising NH.

If Parelli works for your horse and you 'buy into' their ethos (literally) then that's great,each to their own. However I for one don't like Parelli to be held up as the only or main NH way,and I don't want people to put NH wrongly under the  Parelli unbrella.The terminology here is important as Parelli has developed a reputation as a very commercial exercise and their methods are very specific with little room for using other methods ,which may be much more suitable. I don't blame staunch tradionalists for being against Parelli, and it's important to stress the difference between Parelli and general NH.Using NH should not cost not a penny, it comes from the respect and love we have for horses and how we relate to them.

A lot of people prefer a structured 'club' type way of learning, where initiative,research and other experience isn't encouraged or accepted as being important.This is the Parelli way, imo.

NH has been around since horses were domesticated, Parelli is a very recent development and is a very specific 'programme'.I've reared, backed and trained horses for 30 years using NH,just that it used to be called 'common sense and kindness'  
	
	
		
		
	


	




.

Parelli is very far removed from how Richard Maxwell works, and is very far removed from everyday NH practice that I and many others use.In fact I use what works for my horses,as Tic Tac is saying,using NH and Traditional, as they can compliment each other well when both are used with respect for horses, knowledge and experience.

It's a shame we have to divide horsemanship into so many different 'camps' but this is how it seems to be. The Parellis have seen an opportunity to create a 'business' based very loosely on original NH principles.NH should simplify handling and training horses well,and encourage initiative and horse -sense and in many cases it upholds this spirit as it's common-sense based. Unfortunately the same can't be said for Parelli, again, only imo.

Funnily enough I'd probably agree more with a staunch tradionalist than a Parelli convert, in the way that there is no replacement for experience with horses, or a way to 'buy' this.

Let the games begin?


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## Smurphy (18 August 2008)

why do your refer to it as "Natural" Horsemanship?, surely it is simply good horsemanship.


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## Rachel_M (18 August 2008)

I think what they mean when they say "natural" is that they try to get the best out of the horse without using too many "artificial" aids and devices. I think that is what they mean but I have been wrong before! 
	
	
		
		
	


	





Pretty much basic horsemanship, I agree, but it just highlights that there are other ways than using every gadget under the sun to get results!


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## xnaughtybutnicex (18 August 2008)

Pat and linda parelli do basically the same thing that monty roberts, richard maxwell, kelly marks ect. all do and it really is just basic horsemanship, it is human talking horses language not horse talking human language, you dont need anything that costs £90 you just need to watch how the horses 'talk' to each other and their body language, which is exactly what monty roberts did. There is nothing that they can teach you that you cant learn from years of hard work and 'listening' to your horse carefully. Although saying that i do like watching what they can get their horses to do, but def. wouldnt pay £90 for a lunge whip and halter. I would pay to watch them though lol so im kind of in the middle.

Sorry about the essay lol


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## Smurphy (18 August 2008)

would you not class a 10ft rope, a carrot stick and a knotted halter as atificial aids.


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## MooMoo (18 August 2008)

I dont think its fair to class all the natural horsemanship as the same, for example i think Parelli and Kelly Marks are very different. Most obvious thing beingthe absence of carrot stickswith K.M. You dont really need specialist equipment but string halters seem to be quite popular. (Which you can make yourself)


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## xnaughtybutnicex (18 August 2008)

yes, BC you would

I'm all for 'natural'(proper) horsemanship and for traditional as long as they are both done properly e.g traditional-not horse standing for hours with side-reins on like at some dealers or being thrashed around and whipped constantly but getting a smack when it need it e.g trying to throw you off for no reason at all except it didnt want to do what you asked it. 'natural horsemanship'- done 'properly' in the sense that you dont need to be told how to do things you just understand your horses body language and horse does yours.


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## xnaughtybutnicex (18 August 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
I dont think its fair to class all the natural horsemanship as the same, for example i think Parelli and Kelly Marks are very different. Most obvious thing beingthe absence of carrot stickswith 

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasnt classing it all as the same just saying they all use the same 'basics', being that they use the horses own language by studying it and simply repeat it back to them(if that makes sense) IMHO they are all variations of the same thing.


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## Rachel_M (18 August 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
would you not class a 10ft rope, a carrot stick and a knotted halter as atificial aids. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes but I am not from the Parelli or the NH camp, so you'll have to ask them as to their views 
	
	
		
		
	


	






I am just for basic horsemanship.


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## MooMoo (18 August 2008)

Oh ok. I see your point, same basis but different way of applying it. Got you.


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## Flame_ (18 August 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
why do your refer to it as "Natural" Horsemanship?, surely it is simply good horsemanship. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point. I just think its a label that's somehow been adopted by all the Monty Roberts wannabes.  
	
	
		
		
	


	





Everyone understands that it refers to this "new" club of "only ever nice" horse fixers. Works for me... but means sweet F A


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## TarrSteps (18 August 2008)

Random thoughts on the subject . . . 

It's the commercialism that most people claim to object to about Parelli, although I wonder how many of those people wish they'd thought it up first. 
	
	
		
		
	


	





"Natural" is a marketing term and originally was supposed to be an reaction to some of the harsher "cowboy" models (which is why it makes me laugh that "cowboy" has somehow become a compliment now).  Since I suspect no one here has ever seen these practices in action in the modern age the "reaction" is all a bit suspect now.  

Very little of what we want from horses is "natural" its just a way of selling training to people who are ethically questioning their "right" to tell horses what to do.  Personally, I don't think we have the "right" to make animals suffer so if we are going to use them for our purposes - which means keep them at all - then we owe it to them to look after and educate them in the best manner we can.  Mistakes will be made but learn from them and make the next horse's life better.  How the horse gets educated depends a lot on what people want from the situation and what they're willing to put in, far less on the actual methods used.  Many people think that asking less is "better" but that defines the situation very narrowly and ignores some fundamental truths about horses . . . and people.

There have been "horse whisperers" since there have been horses - trainers who advocated a "horse friendly" approach to training based on the natural reactions of the horse and on making the right things easy and the wrong things hard.  No new news there.

How many people who decry "natural" horsemanship have bothered to read Dorrance or even Tom Roberts - men who used similar methods nearly a century ago now?  

The purpose of training is to produce a useful horse for what you want.  

Calm

Forward

Straight

Anything else, whatever box it comes in or hat you wear, is not good training even by practical let alone ethical standards.

If your goal is to produce a good riding horse and the ones you are producing aren't good to ride then you're failing.  If you want a pet and your horse tries to kill you on a daily basis you're not succeeding.  Different systems put emphasis on different things but that doesn't necessarily mean they are "wrong" or "right" merely that they have a different emphasis.  

So many people seem to judge systems by the people who do them badly.  And, to be fair, some systems seem to attract people who don't want to put the time and effort in to learn them properly but I don't think that's limited to current or fashionable methods.  There are a lot of people riding dressage badly . . . does that mean all dressage riders are suspect?  Or that what we call commonly call dressage (which is actually a very narrow school of the discipline) is inherently cruel/stupid/useless?  

My own personal reservation about some of the systems heavily invested in groundwork is they attract some people who, for whatever reason, don't really want to ride but won't simply admit this and move on.  They imply that doing the ground work will solve the ridden issues even if the ridden problems have more to do with the rider than the horse.  Yes, having the horse properly prepared is important - a horse can't do a halfpass properly if it can't cross both sets of legs both ways WITHOUT a rider - but it's only part of it.  In order for horses to go well people have to ride well and I'm suspicious of any system that seems to ignore or downplay that essential truth.

But then again, I don't have a problem with people having horses and NOT riding them, so long as everyone - including the horse - is content with the situation. 
	
	
		
		
	


	




  By the same token, I don't think it's fair to tell people who have a horse whose "problem" is simply that it is unsuited for the situation that a few exercises will make everything okay.  There have been some VERY "traditional" systems that relied heavily on working horses in hand, even to the point of exhibition.  Right or wrong?

The goal is to produce a mentally compliant, willing, supple horse which assumes a relaxed but toned posture, uses it's body properly and enthusiastically, stays sound, sane and safe, and gives the rider/handler enjoyment.  Anyone getting that done can have a definitive opinion but the rest of us are merely struggling towards it and would do better to at least keep our options open and use EVERYTHING we can towards to goal.

All a bit hippy, dippy?  Yup.

But I always think it's such a shame that people who say they have the same goals spend more time slagging each other off for going about it differently instead of proving they've got the "right" solution.


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## YorksG (18 August 2008)

To all those who believe that good horsemanship is a new phenomena, read Xenaphon. The fact that the Parelli's etc are all from America suggests to me that this is a reaction to harsh breaking methods and rodeo style horse 'training'. There are bad horse keepers and trainers the world over, as there are good ones the world over. I do feel though that this 'Natural' horsemanship is merely branding and cashing in on methods of working which have been in place for nearly as long as people have worked horses. It does seem to be a niche for adult novices, from what I have seen.


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## ddd (18 August 2008)

I am into dressage but dont try to convince everyone i come into contact with that they should train there horse in dressage, the same can usually be said for Show jumping and eventing.  My problem with Parelli people is they want to tell everyone it should be done their way and there is no other way, Monty Roberts comes across the same, I do not have a problem with people doing Parelli if that is their choice but then get on with it and leave the rest of us alone.

Natural Horsemanship IMO is only of use if it leads to being able to ride the horse afterwards in a traditional way. Not sure that Parelli does this but Richard Maxwell certainly does.


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## Natch (18 August 2008)

For me natural horsemanship is one of several tools in my toolkit, and it happens to work very well and compliment the other stuff I do too. I even ride with a saddle and bridle and everything 
	
	
		
		
	


	





I call it natural horsemanship because I am striving to keep and treat the horse in the most natural way as is practical, because I believe that to be the kindest to him, and happily it is also the most effective with F. Domesticating horses is not natural, but everything is a compromise on a sliding scale... it is more natural to keep him living out 24/7, than in a stable at night. To intereact with him as best I can in a way that suits his logic is more natural than to make him learn my language according to my logic... does that make sense? 

Of course it has been around for donkeys years, and any person who tries to tell you otherwise is making a pratt out of themselves.  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 It is not mutually exclusive to most other schools of thought and methods, because most schools of thought treat a horse with kindness and know that getting the horse's co-operation not fear ultimately makes for a better horse.  
	
	
		
		
	


	





I also happen to believe that if I can convince a horse to do something because he wants to and doesn't have to (see the flexion in the 2nd picture in on my siggy) then that makes me a better horse person than if the only way I could achieve that was by making it uncomfortable for him otherwise. If I can achieve that with a headcollar great, if it takes a bridle, that's fine too. 
	
	
		
		
	


	





I do wish people wouldn't think that NH is  *VERSUS *  Traditional methods. Not many people consider traditional methods to mean beating the sh*t out of a horse and getting its fear (although some do).

Sits back and waits for her slating...


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## Araminta (18 August 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
would you not class a 10ft rope, a carrot stick and a knotted halter as atificial aids. 

[/ QUOTE ]

I think no more so than headcollars 6' ropes and lungewhips!

I for one always use a 12' rope when leading for 2 reasons - 

1. My horse is huge and if he were to put his head right up I would be off the ground!

2. If a horse is going to mess about I want it to be 12' away from me rather than on top!!!!


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## Araminta (18 August 2008)

Well said.


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## highlandhart (18 August 2008)

Natural horsemanship is basic b^&amp;!!s&amp;T since asking a prey animal to pack a predator on his back is'nt what old Ned is wanting to do . His or her idea is 1]eat grass 2] drink water 3] shag to produce new foals 4]eat grass 5] drink water .Our ideas are all unnatural.....


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## JM07 (19 August 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
Natural horsemanship is basic b^&amp;!!s&amp;T since asking a prey animal to pack a predator on his back is'nt what old Ned is wanting to do . His or her idea is 1]eat grass 2] drink water 3] shag to produce new foals 4]eat grass 5] drink water .Our ideas are all unnatural..... 

[/ QUOTE ]

you forgot "sh1t"!!


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## Silverspring (19 August 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
Natural horsemanship is basic b^&amp;!!s&amp;T since asking a prey animal to pack a predator on his back is'nt what old Ned is wanting to do . His or her idea is 1]eat grass 2] drink water 3] shag to produce new foals 4]eat grass 5] drink water .Our ideas are all unnatural..... 

[/ QUOTE ]

Have you ever stood back and really looked at how a horse is put together?

They have just the right length of back to seat a man (person for the feminists).
They have gaits that are really quite comfortable when compared to other animals of the same physique (think cows, camels)
They are fast across land and able to cross most terrain be it sand, mud, hills, flat.
They are able to jump in a comfortable manner that a person can easily sit (have you ever seen a camel or cow jump?!)
They cope well in varying temparture, almost as well as people.
They have a bar in their mouth which most other grazing mammals lack, which is oh so handy for a little bit of steering.

If I had never seen a watch before and found one on a beach I wouldn't think it had just evolved to be a watch, I would think someone had designed it that way, almost like the horse was a gift...see siggy


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## SirenaXVI (19 August 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
All horse training comes with a price tag! 

[/ QUOTE ]

Not the phenominal price tags attached to Parelli  et al it doesn't!  I really object to them taking large amounts of money off people for what is basic common horsesense with a few shiny objects to add mystique.

As someone has already said, Parelli is mutated traditional with props.  The carrot stick is an orange piaffe whip, the bouncing green ball I see no practical reason for.  I have always done ground work with my horses, starting at around 2, although I don't call them games, I would call myself a traditionalist.

My biggest bugbears with the 'natural' horsemanship schemes, is that their pupils are often (but not always) very novice and become tunnel visioned believing that theirs is the only way, once you start thinking that way, you stop learning, and everyone knows that you never stop learning with horses!  Join up is nothing new, my, and I am sure many others, horses have been doing it for years.

I have seen several horses made into nervious wrecks or conversly take over the relationship completely and start calling the shots, all in the name of Parelli.  This is because people think they can watch a demo, buy a very expensive video course, an equally expensive carrot stick and become a Parelli expert.  This gives them the right to look down their noses at traditionalists and shriek theirs is the only way, whilst askling their horses if it is ok to ride them today - no - ok dear maybe tomorrow.  I saw a demo last summer where the guy was talking about a forthcoming series of demos at the NEC, he stated "Only come if you truly and I mean truly love your horse, if you don't love your horse, don't come", that really angered me as it suggested that only people who are interested in Parelli love their horses.

I need to stop now, am rambling, but could go on forever


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## SirenaXVI (19 August 2008)

Naturally, I for one am not going to slate you, you have said, in a much more eloquent way than I, what I was trying to say (and failed miserably 
	
	
		
		
	


	




)

It should not be a versus situation, but this has been brought about by Parelli himself brainwashing people into thinking his is the only way.


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## cruiseline (19 August 2008)

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear, you have got me started now!!!!!!!!!!

I have been to some of the NATURAL HORSEMANSHIP / MONTY ROBERTS demos, we have lots of these kind of people visit us here, unfortunately!!!! I even allowed Monty to use one of our 3 year old Arab colts for his demo, BIG MISTAKE. I have asked many questions to MR ROBERTS, with absolutely no answer from him, he is a great story teller. One fact is that horses do not understand food rewards, as the last time I looked grass does not run away, these people would make super dog trainers.

I have my horses because I compete them at top level competition, they are not pets that I dangle around on the end of a piece of rope asking them to walk over this or through that at my command. I like to back my horses over a period of time, not in 30 minutes, because I don't care what anyone says, a horse is neither physically ready or mentally ready to be ridden in 30 minutes, and why the hell would I want to anyway. My horses are ridden with saddle and bridle, it is compulsory in competitions. At one demo I witnessed the NATURAL people beat a horse with a carrot stick because it would not walk over a piece of tarpaulin, surely in their natural state no horse would attempt to walk over something it was not sure of on the ground. I would never ask my showjumpers to walk over some blue tarpaulin, I don't want them putting their feet in the water jumps.

NATURAL HORSEMANSHIP is in my opinion like religion, control of the masses. it is just unfortunate that at the end of it all, it is the true professional horse people who have to pick up the pieces and try to fix the poor broken animals after the NATURAL crowd has finished with them.

I told you that you had got me started


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## SirenaXVI (19 August 2008)

...................................and breathe


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## cruiseline (19 August 2008)

LOL................................... and breathes


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## Silverspring (19 August 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
One fact is that horses do not understand food rewards, as the last time I looked grass does not run away, these people would make super dog trainers.



[/ QUOTE ]

If you read any of Monty Roberts horse stuff he states this as a fact, he does not believe in treats for horses in any way shape or form.  A reward is a pat on the head not a sweet, when he discusses loading he laughs at people that wander into the trailer with a bucket of feed hoping the horse will choose food over flight.

[ QUOTE ]
I have my horses because I compete them at top level competition

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you'll find if you read anything about Monty Robert he is a world class reiner, he also won various rodeo championships and went on to train his own race horses.  He now works very closely with the racing industry and has trained lots of top class race horse, please don't mistake Monty for a Parelli, the man works with world class horses!

ETS: and the 30 minute backing is just for demonstration purposes, it proves he can do something that traditional people cannot.  In his books and at demo's he specifically states that he spend time joining up with a horse and gradually introduces tack etc over a period of time depending on the horse.  I have used his method to back 5 horses now, they have all went on to live happy competiton horse lives.


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## cruiseline (19 August 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
I think you'll find if you read anything about Monty Robert he is a world class reiner, he also won various rodeo championships and went on to train his own race horses.  He now works very closely with the racing industry and has trained lots of top class race horse, please don't mistake Monty for a Parelli, the man works with world class horses! 

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes he is certainly a name dropper, at every available opportunity!!!!!! I have met him on several occasions, both during demos and socially, so I am very aware of who and what he is. A man with a very good PR team!!!!

One answer I heard him give at a demo, was to a lady who had a 3 year old colt that bit. He did say all the waffle about positive reinforcement etc. Don't hit, blar blar, he then proceeded to tell the woman that if it bit her again, when it wasn't looking kick it in the leg!!!!!!!!!! apparently although he gave us a 15 minute lecture on how horses are capable of conscious thought, it would not know it was her that had done it!!!!!!!! Surely a better reply would have been to tell her to stop treating her horse like a pet dog and not to give it tit bits every five minutes, you don't need to be a brain surgeon to have worked that one out.

Another one I saw was a broncing horse, obviously very badly handled when being backed, again his answer was to use a piece of bailing twine as a type of grass rein, but instead of it going over the horses head, he passed it under the horses top lip!!!!!!! No the horse did not bronc, because every time it put its head down it lacerated the underneath of its top lip. 

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

My personal experience of the horse I allowed him to use is yet another story!!!!!! Injury to his coronet band, totally traumatised and it took us 6 month to get him ridden away correctly, he was terrified.

So I will stick to my own person impression of who and what he is, thank you.


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## JM07 (19 August 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear, you have got me started now!!!!!!!!!!

I have been to some of the NATURAL HORSEMANSHIP / MONTY ROBERTS demos, we have lots of these kind of people visit us here, unfortunately!!!! I even allowed Monty to use one of our 3 year old Arab colts for his demo, BIG MISTAKE. I have asked many questions to MR ROBERTS, with absolutely no answer from him, he is a great story teller. One fact is that horses do not understand food rewards, as the last time I looked grass does not run away, these people would make super dog trainers.

I have my horses because I compete them at top level competition, they are not pets that I dangle around on the end of a piece of rope asking them to walk over this or through that at my command. I like to back my horses over a period of time, not in 30 minutes, because I don't care what anyone says, a horse is neither physically ready or mentally ready to be ridden in 30 minutes, and why the hell would I want to anyway. My horses are ridden with saddle and bridle, it is compulsory in competitions. At one demo I witnessed the NATURAL people beat a horse with a carrot stick because it would not walk over a piece of tarpaulin, surely in their natural state no horse would attempt to walk over something it was not sure of on the ground. I would never ask my showjumpers to walk over some blue tarpaulin, I don't want them putting their feet in the water jumps.

NATURAL HORSEMANSHIP is in my opinion like religion, control of the masses. it is just unfortunate that at the end of it all, it is the true professional horse people who have to pick up the pieces and try to fix the poor broken animals after the NATURAL crowd has finished with them.

I told you that you had got me started  
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

BLOODY WELL SAID!!!!!!!

exactly what i would like to have written...but without me swearing!!!!


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## JM07 (19 August 2008)

have you had the "pleasure" of meeting MR, silverspring???

he is certainly a charmer....and a fabulous storyteller......


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## Silverspring (19 August 2008)

Fair enough, everything you have said I have heard him use as techniques, the leg kicking and the gumlines etc.  I wasn't there so I don't know the exact situation but I imagine he would have assumed the lady with the biting horse was a horse person that knew not to feed a biter.  He is not Parelli, he assumes his audience have basic horse knowledge.

Can I ask how would you handle a horse that bronced violently everytime someone got on it?  I seen him used gumlines at a demo and they were very effective, I don't see them as much crueler than a harbridge for horses that go above the bit which is a highly accepted method in the UK.  The horse teaches itself that above/below the bit is not a plesant place to be.


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## TicTac (19 August 2008)

I knew this subject would get a good response!!  There are many fantastic horsemen (and women of course ) out there passing their skills and knowledge around. I believe you have to find a trainer and method wich bests suits your personal choice for training your horse. Yes, there are also many unscrupulous trainers out there as well. People who choose to follow their methods probably don't have the best interest of the horse at heart anyway.

I do believe that all training comes with a price tag, which again you can choose to buy into or not. Most of our top riders have tack, clothing or equipment marketed in thier name. and again which some people believe if they use will make the horses go better.

I have many years experience and success under my belt having originally been taught the ' traditional ' way. I do like the NH way of training in some ways but am very much a good practice person at heart what ever that may be. What sickens me most is seeing bad riding and ill treatment of horses. Patience and perseverance are some of the greatest tools.

It has been really interesting reading the replies and as I said obviously an emotive subject!


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## cruiseline (19 August 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
Can I ask how would you handle a horse that bronced violently everytime someone got on it?  I seen him used gumlines at a demo and they were very effective, I don't see them as much crueler than a harbridge for horses that go above the bit which is a highly accepted method in the UK.  The horse teaches itself that above/below the bit is not a plesant place to be. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Firstly, I would never have got a horse to that stage in the first place, the broncing horse had been started using the MONTY method, I personally know the owner (but I will keep my judgement of her to myself). I would have turned it away for a month or two and then started all over again, gaining the horses trust, not resorting to quick fire methods, which did involve cruelty, when he had finished the horse was bleeding badly from the mouth. Its the side show, circus acts that he takes around the country, charging people money to show them just how to ruin their horses. He assumes his audience has a basic knowledge of horses, well I can assure you that 90% of the people watching have no idea what so ever, the other 10% go for a laugh. Does a basic knowledge of horses cover the physical, stressful and mental knowledge that a horse goes though when being backed, not with any people of that level I have met.

The lady with the biting horse had had the horse since it was 6 months old, she had created the biting herself, which is one of the things I would have pointed out quite clearly to her and the rest of the audience. If the horse would not know it was her who kicked it, then I am dying to know who or what it would think caused the pain. after all they are capable of conscious thought, the blade of grass, a rouge fly, the mind boggles. I want to see the horse in 6 months time when not only is it still biting, but it is also lashing out with its front leg too, then she will have to dodge the teeth and the legs.


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## Leah3horses (19 August 2008)

Some people shouldn't have a goldfish never mind a horse!

MR is the most well known NH practioner and if lots of discussion regarding horses and their training has been generated by his fame,when beforehand there was a lot of cruelty in both cowboy and european circles, then surely this can only be a good thing? 

I don't think any one particular method can be held up as being perfect and 'the only way', in anything,from athletics training/horse training to science and everything in between.So far this is what most reasonable horse people on this thread are saying. We could all pick holes in everything,but what would this achieve?Reasonable people try to stay away from extremes and take the middle road to make their own decisions.

As many have said,an experienced horseperson will dip in and out of different methods and disregard labels or personalities associated with certain methods. What works best for horses,without the brutal heavyhandedness that is still quite common unfortunately,or letting a horse walk all over people, is surely what everybody involved with horses wants?

Healthy debate on training practises can only be a positive...if adult novices are drawn towards Parelli, and I agree that this seems to be the target audience,at least it's better than them remaining completely ignorant and just hitting and screeching constantly at horses as 'that's what the woman round the corner has always done'???  

Those of use who aren't adult novices should remain open minded, who knows what advances will be made in the world of horses in the future...as they say,change and taxes are the only 2 certanties in life, after all.

There is good in every method to some degree or another for different people surely,you just have to be very picky and use what suits you, your level of experience and is humane for animals imo.


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## SirenaXVI (19 August 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
Some people shouldn't have a goldfish never mind a horse!
 <font color="blue">Oh I so agree  </font> 

MR is the most well known NH practioner and if lots of discussion regarding horses and their training has been generated by his fame,when beforehand there was a lot of cruelty in both cowboy and european circles, then surely this can only be a good thing? 
 <font color="blue">In cowboy circles perhaps, but we british have not 'broken' horses like that for many many years.  We have 'backed' and 'started' them   </font> 

I don't think any one particular method can be held up as being perfect and 'the only way', in anything,from athletics training/horse training to science and everything in between.So far this is what most reasonable horse people on this thread are saying. We could all pick holes in everything,but what would this achieve?Reasonable people try to stay away from extremes and take the middle road to make their own decisions.
 <font color="blue">I agree with this  </font> 

As many have said,an experienced horseperson will dip in and out of different methods and disregard labels or personalities associated with certain methods. What works best for horses,without the brutal heavyhandedness that is still quite common unfortunately,or letting a horse walk all over people, is surely what everybody involved with horses wants?
 <font color="blue"> Mainly agree with this, but do believe that brutal heavyhandedness is not as common as people like MR and PP would have us think - after all, they seem to be making a fortune out of other people's heavyhandedness and how else could they make money hand over fist </font> 

Healthy debate on training practises can only be a positive...if adult novices are drawn towards Parelli, and I agree that this seems to be the target audience,at least it's better than them remaining completely ignorant and just hitting and screeching constantly at horses as 'that's what the woman round the corner has always done'???  
 <font color="blue">I have not seen this screeching woman round the corner, however I don't doubt she exists, and no, I don't believe that Parelli in particular is any better - seen too many screwed up 'problem' horses  come out of his programme.  Re MR, I know for a fact that he hand picks every single horse that takes part in his demos, he refused to take one belonging to an aquantance of mine. </font> 

Those of use who aren't adult novices should remain open minded, who knows what advances will be made in the world of horses in the future...as they say,change and taxes are the only 2 certanties in life, after all.

 <font color="blue"> Yes, you are right, we should remain open minded, this is how we learn, sadly I have learned that Parelli/MR x novice owner is a dangerous combination.
 </font>


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## SirenaXVI (19 August 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think you'll find if you read anything about Monty Robert he is a world class reiner, he also won various rodeo championships and went on to train his own race horses.  He now works very closely with the racing industry and has trained lots of top class race horse, please don't mistake Monty for a Parelli, the man works with world class horses! 

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes he is certainly a name dropper, at every available opportunity!!!!!! I have met him on several occasions, both during demos and socially, so I am very aware of who and what he is. A man with a very good PR team!!!!

One answer I heard him give at a demo, was to a lady who had a 3 year old colt that bit. He did say all the waffle about positive reinforcement etc. Don't hit, blar blar, he then proceeded to tell the woman that if it bit her again, when it wasn't looking kick it in the leg!!!!!!!!!! apparently although he gave us a 15 minute lecture on how horses are capable of conscious thought, it would not know it was her that had done it!!!!!!!! Surely a better reply would have been to tell her to stop treating her horse like a pet dog and not to give it tit bits every five minutes, you don't need to be a brain surgeon to have worked that one out.

Another one I saw was a broncing horse, obviously very badly handled when being backed, again his answer was to use a piece of bailing twine as a type of grass rein, but instead of it going over the horses head, he passed it under the horses top lip!!!!!!! No the horse did not bronc, because every time it put its head down it lacerated the underneath of its top lip. 

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

My personal experience of the horse I allowed him to use is yet another story!!!!!! Injury to his coronet band, totally traumatised and it took us 6 month to get him ridden away correctly, he was terrified.

So I will stick to my own person impression of who and what he is, thank you. 

[/ QUOTE ]

*applauds*  cruiseline


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## Shilasdair (19 August 2008)

I have watched NH demos at a large show centre (not saying whom) and the horses are NOT as they tell you, unseen by them.  They take in many more horses than they need, then work them for hours the day of the demo (if it is in the evening) so the horse knows what it had better do, and they can keep the more predictable, compliant ones.
Then the trot them out at night saying 'Mr XXX has never seen this horse before' - call me naive but I couldn't believe they would lie like this 
	
	
		
		
	


	




S


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## cruiseline (19 August 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
I have watched NH demos at a large show centre (not saying whom) and the horses are NOT as they tell you, unseen by them.  They take in many more horses than they need, then work them for hours the day of the demo (if it is in the evening) so the horse knows what it had better do, and they can keep the more predictable, compliant ones.
Then the trot them out at night saying 'Mr XXX has never seen this horse before' - call me naive but I couldn't believe they would lie like this 
	
	
		
		
	


	




S 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

You are correct, they are all hand picked, including the one I stupidly allowed Monty Roberts to use. Granted he was not backed, but he had been stabled since birth, had front shoes on (he had been lunged) and handled from he day the popped into the world. In the demo he made out that the horse had never had his feet picked up in his life, and how suspicious he was of people, I did point out to him (in a rather loud voice) that it actually had front shoes on, which he had failed to notice. 

I don't think he liked me


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## Shilasdair (19 August 2008)

My favourite, Cruiseline, was the TV documentary (years ago) of a well know NH trainer who decided to show join up or similar bonding technique 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 with a 'wild' mustang, by following it through the plains (?) of America in the style of the Native Americans.
The only slight flaw in the programme, was that the 'wild' mustang had four shoes on.   I thought my father was going to die laughing.
S


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## cruiseline (19 August 2008)

LOL fabulous


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## Leah3horses (19 August 2008)

Just want to point out in my last post I wasn't endorsing MR and definitly not Parelli, just saying people will always have different opinions on all types of training.The people who attend these things, which are often staged as everybody knows, and think they are an expert without any further research or experience will ruin horses I agree.But then this type of people will ruin any horse they get their hands on,as they always think they know it all when nobody does.


I'm afraid in my own personal experience I have experienced over 50  horses I know of  being 'backed'using outdated,very cruel methods, here in the UK and also several European countries.I've had to help rehab them.In most UK horse rescues there will still be casualties of such methods every year.It does happen, and so does brute force and extreme heavyhandedness.I had to witness it every day at my last yard,courtesy of the next door 'dressage rider' neighbours. And they actually asked me how I got my horses to come running every time I went to their field, as she complained hers ran away from her!!???

Shilasdair that is hilarious! Really made me chuckle lol


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## Shilasdair (19 August 2008)

[ QUOTE ]

Shilasdair that is hilarious! Really made me chuckle lol 

[/ QUOTE ]

Just be glad you didn't have to endure my father speculating whether the mustang had 'accidentally galloped over' a set of shoes...
S


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## Laafet (19 August 2008)

I too have had the pleasure of giving over my horse to MR for a demo. I was pleased on the night but have watched the DVD of the whole thing numerous times since and become more sceptical. I grant that he is a fantastic horseman, but he tell fantastic stories too. He said that my boy was 3 and totally wild, which I corrected when I was asked to tell MR about my problems, he is 5 and broken in just very unsure of new situations and a bit of a loon in general having been an unhandled 4 year old PB Welshie when I got him. He kept going on about how he had not touched T at all before the demo. No he hadn't but his mate, who was in the arena had worked him for an hour during the day. Also he carefully worded his questions to get the responce he wanted from me and I duelly obliged (sp). My horse was exposed to the palstic bag thingy and while he will be led over tarpaulin and have plastic bags on his back he is still sh*t scared of them in other situations. So what did the demo achieve, well, T did get to experience a big crowd which is good for his competitions in the future and he was desensitised to certain situations that will never occur again in his life. They chose T because he looked wild and snorted lots, making MR look very good. They admitted that, and said it made it easier for the audience to understand what was going on. 
Also I think it was in Horse magazine recently where they had an article on the truth about NH and how there is no proof that horses can see us a 'friends' even if we do try to speak their lingo as we are basically predators and the round pen is tantamount to cruelty as it stops the horse doing what it wants to do.
I believe in good horsemanship and take on the bits I think work. Yes I do have a dually halter for T but only for leading, it is no good for loading. I use a chain over the nose on Murphy or Chifney on either when they are fresh as both respect this. I do not abuse the tools I have but use them to help my horses get whatever I ask of them right everytime. This is positive reinforcement. Parelli was also flagged up the article as using a lot of negative reinforcement and I think the yo yo game is good example of this, if the horse does not respond to the waving finger then wave the rope - is this not a threat? Its a bit like shouting at foriegners to make them understand. Hope this all makes sense.


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## JM07 (19 August 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
My favourite, Cruiseline, was the TV documentary (years ago) of a well know NH trainer who decided to show join up or similar bonding technique 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 with a 'wild' mustang, by following it through the plains (?) of America in the style of the Native Americans.
The only slight flaw in the programme, was that the 'wild' mustang had four shoes on.   I thought my father was going to die laughing.
S 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]


i saw that too...stupid wench.....just who was she trying to kid, eh???


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## SirenaXVI (19 August 2008)

Makes perfect sense, when will people wise up to MR &amp; co and stop handing them their hard earned cash.

There is a website alledgedly exposing MR's lies, specifically about his parents:
www.montyrobertslies.com


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## SirenaXVI (19 August 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My favourite, Cruiseline, was the TV documentary (years ago) of a well know NH trainer who decided to show join up or similar bonding technique 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 with a 'wild' mustang, by following it through the plains (?) of America in the style of the Native Americans.
The only slight flaw in the programme, was that the 'wild' mustang had four shoes on.   I thought my father was going to die laughing.
S 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]


i saw that too...stupid wench.....just who was she trying to kid, eh??? 

[/ QUOTE ]

Did MR not do a similar thing?  Chased a poor mustang for four days, then when it was absolutely knackered got on it?


ETS:  Just remembered, he wrote a bl@@dy book about it - Shyboy


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## Laafet (19 August 2008)

Yes he did, isn't that how wolves like to kill their prey, obviously eating it not riding it!


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## SirenaXVI (19 August 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
Yes he did, isn't that how wolves like to kill their prey, obviously eating it not riding it! 

[/ QUOTE ]

OOh I do believe you're right, how very humane of him


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## Shilasdair (19 August 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yes he did, isn't that how wolves like to kill their prey, obviously eating it not riding it! 

[/ QUOTE ]

OOh I do believe you're right, how very humane of him 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

And were there not studies into the hunting of deer, which said that the deer showed high levels of stress hormones after being chased...
(Not pro or anti hunting, just saying)
S


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## Laafet (19 August 2008)

Positive reinforcement, I think not then. All the crap about good teachers guide not force education, well if I was chased round a pen then I'd call that forcing.


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## SirenaXVI (19 August 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yes he did, isn't that how wolves like to kill their prey, obviously eating it not riding it! 

[/ QUOTE ]

OOh I do believe you're right, how very humane of him 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

And were there not studies into the hunting of deer, which said that the deer showed high levels of stress hormones after being chased...
(Not pro or anti hunting, just saying)
S 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

Indeed there were Shils, sadly I don't think the government will ban MR - we can but dream


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## SirenaXVI (19 August 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
Positive reinforcement, I think not then. All the crap about good teachers guide not force education, well if I was chased round a pen then I'd call that forcing. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Am almost sure (someone correct me if I am wrong) that the reason Richard Maxwell parted company with MR was for exactly that reason


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## Laafet (19 August 2008)

I think some people get into desperate situations through either their own stupidity or sheer bad luck and then look for some 'Messiah' to show them the way. This is where MR and PP come in. I had terrible problems with Tarquin and getting him to progress in his training. I was saving up to send him away as I was just so desperate for him to be normal. Then I did a very sensible thing and had a lesson with a local trainer and hey presto he is great now. It wasn't that I am a cr*p rider, as I am not, it was that I had lost my way and was all worked up about getting it right. I was only being told to do what I knew to do, but as I had got so stressed out I just wasn't thinking for myself. I am so glad now that I did not waste 1000 on him going RM or anyone else. Not because they would not have done a good job, but because it was a simple problem with a simple solution. I needed lessons!!!!


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## Laafet (19 August 2008)

Oh was it really, how interesting I was always curious over why they split up? I also do have a lot of respect for Micheal Peace, he speaks a lot of sense.


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## JM07 (19 August 2008)

i think these people actually "play-up" to some types of horse/pony owner......


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## Laafet (19 August 2008)

I agree with you there, when I running my yard, reschooling problem horses (oh the irony) most horses seemed not to be a problem at all. It was their owners and most of the time they just needed some decent lessons and taught how to behave so that their horse did too. Simple. But as I am aware it is the simple answers that are often ignored. Tell someone that you need to do x y and z to get their horse to behave and they love it, tell them they need to get more horse experience and they don't.


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## burtie (19 August 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with you there, when I running my yard, reschooling problem horses (oh the irony) most horses seemed not to be a problem at all.   

[/ QUOTE ] 

Sadly true, I have often been asked to school difficult horses only to get on them and find they do nothing wrong!


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## Shilasdair (19 August 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
 [ QUOTE ]
I agree with you there, when I running my yard, reschooling problem horses (oh the irony) most horses seemed not to be a problem at all.   

[/ QUOTE ] 

Sadly true, I have often been asked to school difficult horses only to get on them and find they do nothing wrong! 

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the worst though - especially if they haven't told you what the horse is supposed to do wrong.  If it doesn't do the usual rearing/broncing/bolting routine...you start to think it must be something truly horrific.
S


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## Natch (19 August 2008)

QR

Monty Roberts was "the orignal natural horseman" - as far as I understand it, he brought forward a message that non-violence worked better than violence and force. That was to an American cowboy audience several decades ago. I'm not saying these things didn't exist before he came around, but then I don't think he was, either. HIS methods were new, the logic behind them wasn't. And he happened to become a good public personality and was able to spread his word far and wide. Pretty much what the Parellis have taken over doing the same with.

NH methods has evolved a hell of a lot since then, its just a pity that some of the most well known and publicised ones have forgotten what was really important and greed and fame has overcome. IMHO some of the best trainers and practitioners in the area are the least well known - and IMO this is because they give a damn about doing the best they can for the horse's sake, rather than being a brand and a publicity money spinning machine. 

Many NH trainers now don't teach join up, because they believe it to be agressive and gives the horse no choice. They do other things instead because the process has evolved and is constantly evolving. At its "introduction," join up was believed to be kinder than the alternative way of backing a horse. Whatever people say, I know people to this day who believe that a horse should be "broken" - they don't use methods as physically harsh as the ones Monty describes, and some of them don't realise what they are doing to the horse's mind, but the end product is a horse who has lost its zest and personnality and becomes a yes machine, and that way is still considered to be normal. Funnily enough these horses rarely make top level horses.



The leg kicking thing - again, thought patterns evolve - the alternative when he dreamt it up would have been smack the horse in the gob and make it headshy - therefore kicking its leg (for the sake of grace I am assuming we are not talking about booting but a bit more than a nudge) would have been considered the lesser of the two evils. The bailing twine thing I can't comment on as I have not heard of or witnessed it, but I have met Mr Roberts, seen enough Parelli demos and head enough from good sources to make up my own mind about them. Again, I believe that fame and fortune sadly got in the way of the primary objective - to teach kinder but still effective methods of horsemanship, whatever they may be.


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## cruiseline (20 August 2008)

Naturally, if that is what you truly think then that is fine, every one is allowed their religion. But I am fed up of the NATURAL bunch telling the rest of the world that they have no idea and have been doing it wrong!!!!!!!!!!

MR says in his demos and I quote, as I have them on video 'if you start your horse the way I am going to show you, you will have a better horse at the end of the day'. I challenged him on this question, I asked him why would it be a better horse. His answer was 'because it will be', I pointed out that he had not really answered my question "why would it be a better horse'. His came back with the same answer and then spent 10 minutes on one of his stories.

There is no way on this earth I am going to believe that it would be a better horse because MR say so, who does he think he is fooling, only the weak and inexperienced.

If you truly believed in Natural Horsemanship, you would set them all free in herds in the fields, as that is the only Natural thing they understand, no ropes, no carrot sticks, they won't bite or kick just natural.


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## ddd (20 August 2008)

The first (and only) time I went to see Monty Roberts  had heard so much hype about him that I was really looking forward to it and went with an open mind ready to learn and enjoy.

I was horrified, those poor horses in a round pen, chased round and then backed as quickly as possible. Why?. If this wasn't bad enough he then asked the audience to time each one and by the fourth was trying to do it quicker than the one before. Why? Someone earlier said this is only on demos and he takes more time at home, well if that is the case why show on a demo where people have gone to see his methods something he does not do at home.

Why not show 4 different horses at each stage of the backing process.  A friend of mine had leant her horse, it was horse no 3, so had to be done quicker than 1 and 2, it was backed and ridden in 19 minutes! Why? the next day it was so truamatised it had to be started again and get its confidence in humans back.

I think Monty has a lot to offer but I could never go to a demo again as I would not be a witness to this sort of backing again.

I beleive in Natural Horsemanship but not of this kind. I have sent horses to Richard Maxwell and have seen Michael Pease and they are excellent but you can keep the rest they just give NH a bad name.


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## clipclop (20 August 2008)

I enjoy watching all methods of training. I learn something from them all even if I don't like the whole product. Even if what I learn is "I don't think that suits my guys".

I don't think there is any one formula to suit all horses. You have to keep adding to your toolbox and use what you think is appropriate at that time with that horse.


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