# Vetting showed grade 2 heart murmur - advice pls



## LowenKi (18 July 2012)

Still waiting for vet to call and talk to me - horse passed betting but vet did find a grade 2 heart murmur. I have never experienced heart conditions before can someone explain the significance and importance of this please? Horse is 10yo and will be used for hacking and dressage.


----------



## Sberry (18 July 2012)

Not sure if this is any help but 15 years ago I bought a 9 year old mare to event - she was found to have a grade 1 heart murmur - she went on to event up to intermediate level, did some medium level dressage and is still running round the field like a 3 year old at 24! I am not sure of what the grades signify so a 2 may be a lot more serious than a 1 - I would deff. speak to the vet.


----------



## Britestar (18 July 2012)

One of my foals was born with hole in her heart. She had an audiable murmer until about 6/7. She's now 20yrs old and its never put her up nor down.


----------



## ihatework (18 July 2012)

In terms of what you want to do it *shouldn't* stop the horse being fit for purpose. Many horses have heart murmurs, and grade 2 isn't that serious.

That said, you insurance company will put a blanket exclusion on all cardiac conditions, so if it worsened over time then you wouldn't be covered for vets, and if it dropped dead of a heart attack you also wouldn't get a payout (unlikely but not impossible).

I've known a couple of people buy really nice horses cheaper than market value due to a heart murmur and had great fun with them.

If you are positive this is the right horse for you then I'd say don't right it off, but use it to negotiate a lower price!


----------



## Booboos (18 July 2012)

'Heart murmur' doesn't really tell you anything, there are a variety of different types of conditions covered under the description, some completely stable and never affect the horse, others deteriorate rapidly and mean the horse can't be ridden. Since the horse passed I would guess it's the benign variety - loads of horses and people have them (I have one, as does F) - but do speak with the vet directly and try not to panic until you do!


----------



## popsdosh (18 July 2012)

Most mega fit horses show a murmur to some degree so not unusual.
Surely if the vet has said it passed they are saying its not a problem some vets pick them up easier than others.


----------



## LowenKi (18 July 2012)

Thanks guys, just don't want to end up buying something that might become unfit for purpose again... Or become too difficult to sell on if it didn't work out! Hmmmm... In any case the vet still hasn't phoned me so guess I'll be waiting until tomorrow to hear from him!


----------



## LowenKi (18 July 2012)

Ok just spoke to the vet and he says it's a 'systolic murmur' which apparently involves the mitral valve allowing small volumes of blood to return back through. He says it's not a pathological murmur and he doesn't anticipate it needing any further investigation or that it would degenerate at all over the next 5-10 years. In his opinion it's a minor finding. He also found a small nodular


----------



## Carefreegirl (18 July 2012)

I'd walk away. I'd never be able to truly relax as it would always be in the back of my mind.


----------



## LowenKi (18 July 2012)

Apologies - premature posting! 

He found a small nodular sarcoid which He says is benign and would drop off if we banded it... 

Again vet said this was a minor issue in his eyes.

I have no experience of sarcoids either! Any advice?! :S


----------



## LowenKi (18 July 2012)

Should add - the murmur was abolished after exercise


----------



## Booboos (18 July 2012)

I would not give it another thought to be honest. Many, many murmurs are completely innocent and one of the big give aways of a problem is when they get WORSE with exercise. Forget about it, on another day another vet may not even hear it.

Sarcoids are common in horses although they describe a variety of different types of growths. Some multiply, are invasive and are situated in areas that cause a lot of problems, e.g. on the girth, some are single growths, that are self contained and may even drop off on their own. R had a sarcoid on his sheath that was a self contained nodule (you could feel all the way around it) and which popped off on its own as the vet was trying to band it. F had a 'suspected sarcoid' on his back at his vetting, I left it alone and it disappeared within a year not to return in 6 years now. 

I'd go with your vet's opinion and enjoy my new horse!


----------



## LowenKi (18 July 2012)

Thanks BooBoos that's really lovely advice


----------



## EmmaB (18 July 2012)

When my horses previous owner first got him the vet said he had a heart murmur and said she should be careful with him. He was quite thin apparently when she got him, and a year later after he had fattened up she had the vet again and the murmur was gone, vet said she could do whatever she liked with him. That was when he was 6, I've got him now at 16 and he still going as strong as ever   So it wouldn't put me off


----------



## AandK (18 July 2012)

My horse failed the vetting with a heart murmur (now part of his show name!) I've no idea what grade it was, but I do know it didn't really disappear with work, although it didn't get worse.. His then owner wasn't interested in getting it investigated further and said he'd keep him as a hack if I didn't want him. 
I nearly walked away but I just couldnt stop thinking about him.. That was 10yrs ago, horse is now 15yrs old and has evented, team chased and drag hunted as well as the usual RC stuff  with no ill effects. I took a risk but he's my horse of a lifetime and was well worth it!


----------



## AandK (18 July 2012)

PS. Plus I got him for £2k less than advertised too


----------



## kirstyl (18 July 2012)

When I had mine vetted, he was found to have an erratic heart beat when excited - a horse had escaped from the field and galloped around him. His heart beat returned to normal and had been normal beforehand. He was absolutely skeletal when I had him vetted and prior to that had had a 5 - 6 year racing career.  I knew that I would never be putting him in any where that sort of situation so went for it - and 2.5 years on, he's a delight! He also grew sarcoids in the first year, one nodular, 2 verrocous, all of which were treated successfully with Liverpool Cream.  The vet felt that the sarcoids may have been caused by his extremely poor condition and immune system shutting down.  I wouldn't let either of these things put you off if he ticks the boxes in other ways. Good luck!!


----------



## Sberry (19 July 2012)

LowenKi said:



			Ok just spoke to the vet and he says it's a 'systolic murmur' which apparently involves the mitral valve allowing small volumes of blood to return back through. He says it's not a pathological murmur and he doesn't anticipate it needing any further investigation or that it would degenerate at all over the next 5-10 years. In his opinion it's a minor finding. He also found a small nodular
		
Click to expand...

I really believe you should be very careful about ANY Sarcoid - my Mare had the smallest little lump which was diagnosed as a Sarcoid when she was 10 - it was banded and fell off quite quickly - they grew back big time - she has had Liverpool Cream, full on surgery, more banded and they always have grown back - please please think long and hard about this - they are awful things and if they grow in a place that affects the tack or rugs they are a nightmare to deal with - I can't believe a vet would call them 'benign'


----------



## MontyandZoom (19 July 2012)

There are several types of non-pathological murmurs. Generally those that decrease with exercise are thought to be less significant. Most are so-called physiological murmurs caused by turbulence due to the large atria that horses have and various other factors. It sounds like your horse has a degree of mitral regurgitation which is not uncommon especially in older horses. It sounds like your vet is confident that this is not a significant finding so I wouldn't be too worried.

The sarcoid is more worrying IMO. Sarcoids can behave in very different ways - my mare has a sarcoid that hasn't done anything in 7 years but some can be more sinister. You will not be insured for treatment so think carefully and have a good chat to your vet before buying this horse.


----------



## jools123 (19 July 2012)

your insurance company will most likely not cover any sarcoids or cardiac conditions, possible not cover any growths at all.
they will not cover any thing found during the vetting for that reason and the heart ache that goes with any health issue i would not buy anything knowing it had a pre-existing condition. but good luck whatever you decide to do


----------



## Holidays_are_coming (19 July 2012)

When my mare was vetted she had a AV Block which was gone after exercise that was never mentioned by the insurance company even though it was on her vetting certificate.

I too would be more worried about the sarcoid, my mare had one and touch wood we havent had another problem in 3 1/2 yrs!!!


----------



## BeckyD (19 July 2012)

I wouldn't be remotely worried about the murmur, but I would worry about the sarcoid.  They can be aggressive, nasty things and I wouldn't buy a horse with one.


----------



## YasandCrystal (19 July 2012)

The murmur wouldn't put me off. The horse's price should reflect the sarcoid incase it needs treatment, but if your vet is happy - he is the one you should be listening to.


----------



## seabsicuit2 (19 July 2012)

Neither would put me off, people here are so fussy it's scary - would they ever find the perfect horse that didn't have a single thing wrong with it?! Of all the things that could possibly be picked up in a vetting, a murmur and a sarcoid would be the very least of my worries. 
the murmur prob will never be picked up on/ appear again and the sarcoid will be uneventfull. I think it's extremely rare for sarcoids to develope into a bigger problem ,, horses over the continent are sold with them all the time , with no impact on the cost. It's only in the uk that people worry about them ! They have an unfair reputation .


----------



## Carefreegirl (19 July 2012)

Not fussy but having seen my horse die because of a (unknown) heart murmur I would never wish anybody to go through that. It was only discovered by a postmortem.


----------



## TarrSteps (19 July 2012)

If the murmur originates from the problem stated I would say it's probably not much to worry about. 

I have a mitral valve prolapse myself. When I was much younger doctors worried more about murmurs because it was difficult to differentiate just by listening. Even then, the only real concern was a small risk of infection which meant antibiotics for dental work etc. Since then though, medicine has moved on and now the feeling is the condition is very common and pretty much benign so long as the owner of the heart is otherwise healthy. No worries.


----------



## Lolo (19 July 2012)

Holidays_are_coming said:



			When my mare was vetted she had a AV Block which was gone after exercise that was never mentioned by the insurance company even though it was on her vetting certificate.

I too would be more worried about the sarcoid, my mare had one and touch wood we havent had another problem in 3 1/2 yrs!!!
		
Click to expand...

First degree AV blocks are pretty common in humans and never really of any note at all unless they're new and causing problems or worsening (yay cardiographer hat on!) so I can't imagine it would be hugely different. It's just a small delay between the atrial and ventricular 'pump'.

My dad always mutters about murmurs, as apparently undetected ones in humans are not that rare and aren't picked up as they cause very few problems if any... I'd speak to the vet and ask what they'd advise though on this one.

EDIT: Just seen you have  The sarcoid would cause far more worry for me than a systolic murmur... Look them up on youtube- they're pretty cool on echoes to have a gander at.


----------



## Honey08 (19 July 2012)

My friend's brother bred labradors.  One of the puppies showed a heart murmur, so he gave it to his brother.  Years later they have never had any problems, the dog has led a totally active life, and it didn't show up when a different vet checked it a few years ago - think the breeder is annoyed he gave it away now!

Re the small sarcoid.  I have had two horse with them in the last seven years.  One was removed with cream (it was growing and bleeding) and never showed its head again.  The other horse had a few small ones that showed on the vetting.  The vet was a bit 50/50 about whether they were good or bad (so the fact that your vet is not worried is good).  Our own vet suggested a paste made out of tea tree oil and lemongrass, which caused three to fall off.  Five years on, the remaining couple have never been a problem.  Both horse had sarcoids excluded from their insurance policies forever after though.  To have the first horse's sarcoid removed with cream wasn't very expensive anyway..


----------



## Tonks (19 July 2012)

From what I know vets categorised heart mumurs as "funtional" or "pathological". Functional means not to worry, whereas pathological means - worry!

The grading from 1 to 6 is concerned with the audibilty or loudness of the mumur when listened to with a stethoscope.

Functional mumurs are normally audible at 1-2 and I think pathological mumurs are then graded 3-6.

I'm pretty sure that exercise doesn't really have a bearing on severity as some functional mumurs are louder with exercise whereas some pathological mumurs are quieter with exercise or heart rate increase. 

As long as there are no structural changes to the heart, ie, leaking, narrowing of arties, arrhythmia, disease or defects it shouldn't cause any problems as is therefore, functional.

The only way to know for sure about the type and severity of the mumur is to have an ECG but if the horse is a) not very expensive in the first place and b) is only required for hacking and dressage is might not be worth the expense.

But it is worth remembering that it WILL effect the sale price and especially in this market, you could get a bargain, if you wanted to push it with the vendor. 

Sarcoids are skin tumors and I personally wouldn't buy a horse with a scarcoid and it will effect the asking price. There are different types of sarcoids where a horse can have a small one that doesn't change much over it's lifetime. However, I think that complications can arise with sarcoids = when they change into aggressive fibroblastic sarcoids which are horrible. Then there are malevolent sarcoids which spread to the lymph system. I think the change can occur quite innocently such as if the horse knocks the original small sarcoid.


----------



## robthecob (19 July 2012)

Obviously one persons not a lot of money is another persons £££. I recently had sarcoids treated on my mare after age developed one and the bill was £450 my mare is uninsured due to LOU but it gets costly as the cream needs to be applied up to 5 times by a vet so it soon mounts up, the cream alone was £150. 

There is lots of info on sarcoids on the Liverpool university website. The problem with banding is they can grow back and if they do they grow back more aggressive. If I had my time again I would have definatly treated the first time that one came up rather than waiting for the one on the girth. We are 3 months without a saddle at the moment, luckily I have got rather good at schooling bareback and we don't compete but if I did my summer would have been gone.

I know nothing about murmurs


----------



## MontyandZoom (19 July 2012)

Tonks said:



			From what I know vets categorised heart mumurs as "funtional" or "pathological". Functional means not to worry, whereas pathological means - worry!

The grading from 1 to 6 is concerned with the audibilty or loudness of the mumur when listened to with a stethoscope.

Functional mumurs are normally audible at 1-2 and I think pathological mumurs are then graded 3-6.

I'm pretty sure that exercise doesn't really have a bearing on severity as some functional mumurs are louder with exercise whereas some pathological mumurs are quieter with exercise or heart rate increase. 

As long as there are no structural changes to the heart, ie, leaking, narrowing of arties, arrhythmia, disease or defects it shouldn't cause any problems as is therefore, functional.

The only way to know for sure about the type and severity of the mumur is to have an ECG but if the horse is a) not very expensive in the first place and b) is only required for hacking and dressage is might not be worth the expense.

QUOTE]

Not to be too picky......but grade of a heart murmur does not always determine prognosis. For example with VSD the smaller the defect (and less likely to cause a problem) the louder the murmur. So you could have a grade 5 murmur that causes no clinical signs or a grade 1 murmur that causes heart failure. Physiological murmurs are also very unlikely to get louder with exercise. An ECG will only tell you about an arrhythmia (such as AV block) but, unlike with small animals, tells you nothing about the type or severity of a murmur - this can only be done with an echocardiogram (ie an ultrasound).

Many practices have portable ultrasounds so if you were worried and very keen on the horse, you could always have it investigated?

Removing geek hat now........
		
Click to expand...


----------



## jvm100 (19 July 2012)

Piglet has has a heart murmur since I got her. She's never had any problems with it. She's won just about every Scurry championship there is and has qualified for HOYS for the last 11 years, so has definitely not taken life easy!If your vet thinks its ok, I would go for it. Good luck!


----------



## Tonks (19 July 2012)

Not to be too picky......but grade of a heart murmur does not always determine prognosis. For example with VSD the smaller the defect (and less likely to cause a problem) the louder the murmur. So you could have a grade 5 murmur that causes no clinical signs or a grade 1 murmur that causes heart failure. Physiological murmurs are also very unlikely to get louder with exercise. An ECG will only tell you about an arrhythmia (such as AV block) but, unlike with small animals, tells you nothing about the type or severity of a murmur - this can only be done with an echocardiogram (ie an ultrasound).

It is my understanding that in general, loud murmurs are more likely to be important or significant than quiet murmurs, so the original poster should feel comforted by this as her vet suggested. 

However, as you stated there are exceptions to this rule and the intensity of a murmur does not correspond exactly with the severity of an abnormality. So it's the characteristics of the mumur that are primary rather than simply audibility, I guess.

If you have clinical experience regarding exercise and mumurs then I have to bow to that and indeed, over the years most vets have told me that if it doesn't get worse with exercise then it's functional or nothing to worry about. However, from my readings over the years it suggests that this 'rule of thumb' is not always the case.

Yep, I am sorry re ECG and you're right.


----------



## Tonks (19 July 2012)

"Not to be too picky......but grade of a heart murmur does not always determine prognosis. For example with VSD the smaller the defect (and less likely to cause a problem) the louder the murmur. So you could have a grade 5 murmur that causes no clinical signs or a grade 1 murmur that causes heart failure. Physiological murmurs are also very unlikely to get louder with exercise. An ECG will only tell you about an arrhythmia (such as AV block) but, unlike with small animals, tells you nothing about the type or severity of a murmur - this can only be done with an echocardiogram (ie an ultrasound)."

It is my understanding that in general, loud murmurs are more likely to be important or significant than quiet murmurs, so the original poster should feel comforted by this as her vet suggested. 

However, as you stated there are exceptions to this rule and the intensity of a murmur does not correspond exactly with the severity of an abnormality. So it's the characteristics of the mumur that are primary rather than simply audibility, I guess.

If you have clinical experience regarding exercise and mumurs then I have to bow to that and indeed, over the years most vets have told me that if it doesn't get worse with exercise then it's functional or nothing to worry about. However, from my readings and experience over the years it suggests that this 'rule of thumb' is not always the case.

Yep, I am sorry re ECG and you're right.


----------



## MontyandZoom (19 July 2012)

Sorry Tonks - reckon I sounded a tad obnoxious in my post. Vet student keeness takes over!!  OP's vet prob wouldn't pass a horse if he had any worries about a murmur so reckon there's nothing to be too concerned about


----------



## Honey08 (19 July 2012)

robthecob said:



			Obviously one persons not a lot of money is another persons £££. I recently had sarcoids treated on my mare after age developed one and the bill was £450 my mare is uninsured due to LOU but it gets costly as the cream needs to be applied up to 5 times by a vet so it soon mounts up, the cream alone was £150.
		
Click to expand...

Wow thats a heck of a bill.   I wouldn't have said your bill was not a lot! Mine was under £150 for two treatments.  Your horse's sarcoids sound much more severe than ours were.


----------



## LowenKi (19 July 2012)

Crikey thanks for all the advice guys, you've all put so much time into this so I can't thank you enough. I've taken it all on board, chewed it around a fair amount and also spoken to my own vet (horse is currently at other end of country) and asked him to speak to vet who did the vetting and get back to me (hope that made sense!). Anywho, I now feel confident that the 'pass' on the certificate is for good reason and that both the sarcoid (which apparently is the easiest type to treat and the most benign) and murmur will not make this horse unfit for purpose. I could get really picky about it, but to me, even with these imperfections, I still think he's the right horse for me. I'll be having another lesson on him Saturday and bringing him home after that to start his new dressage career with me 

Thank you all so much - you've been an amazing help! Xxxx


----------



## LowenKi (19 July 2012)

I should also add - price reflects these findings so don't worry I haven't been entirely daft  

Very excited! xxx


----------



## measles (19 July 2012)

Very best of luck with him, OP


----------



## EstherYoung (19 July 2012)

We got Spud's murmur investigated by a cardiologist and it turns out he has three! One normal harmless fitness related one, one harmless age related one, and one that is OK at the moment but may or may not cause problems in the future. MontyandZoom is right though - it's his two harmless ones which are loud and the potentially sinister one which is barely noticeable. The cardiologist was quite happy for him to keep working as normal though, and she just said to keep him within his comfort zone. All the while it is a 'regular irregularity' everything is fine. She said that we're in the right sport as Spud's heart will get listened to more than most.

It did scare the bejeezus out of us when he was first diagnosed but horses' hearts are notoriously inefficient and leaky and there are loads of horses out there living perfectly normal fit and healthy lives with weird murmurs.

If your vet is happy it isn't a problem then it's unlikely to be a problem. Actually the cardiologist said to us that it is the really athletic horses with big hearts that tend to have weird rhythms, so ironically it could be a sign of a really athletic horse.


----------



## Orangehorse (20 July 2012)

It says in one of my vet books that human doctors can't resist listening to their horse's hearts, and then run round to see the vet in a panic as they can hear all sorts of noises and sloshing about that would be serious in a human, but for a horse is considered normal.

Although I'm a lot less knowledgable than lots of you, I understood that a horse might have a slight noise in the heart at rest, but if it went away with exercise it is oK.


----------

