# Downunder Horsmanship - Clinton Anderson - OMG



## acolvine (21 June 2009)

Ok, i know i am probably setting myself up here for criticism as im sure there are many fans out there of this 'Clinton Anderson' but having watched Part 7 of his series on Rural TV i was shocked, stunned and amazed that anyone would listen to a word he says.

Its not a program i have watched before (or will be again...), nothing else on tv last night so tuned in for an episode.

The Scene - tb gelding that had come off the track and had two years rest due to a fetlock injury (fracture of some description).
This was its second 'training/eduacation' session...

For starters anyone who uses a 'wand' and suggests  'whacking or karate chopping' with it shouldn't be near a horse.
From the floor he was making the poor thing (who looked petrified of him and the wand) side step/yield in front then behind all the way round an arena and back for about 10 mins whilst 'whacking' with the wand if it didn't move. Then wondered why it didn't understand it could stand still as he started to rub the wand over it. Then proceed to 'whack' (his words) it again.

The horse had a worried look in its eye the whole time and it was a lovely amenable horse. There was just no need. The movements he was putting the horse through would have just loaded pressure onto the fetlocks and not aided in any sort of rehab.

The best is yet to come..........he then gets on to ride the horse and he states that this is the horses second ridden session.
At this point you aren't aware that the horse is carrying an old injury, they definitely saved the best for last!

He begins by asking the horse to flex his head/neck from left to right, horses nose to riders leg. Fine...............but he then starts jabbing the poor thing in the mouth, it looke really sore. He does this continually for a good few minutes.
Then....starts the trot and the canter ( i refer back to the point that the horse is coming back into work after a fetlock fracture) aside from the fact that it was a race horse so unlikely to have ever had any other schooling. The poor thing was knackered, no wonder it started to slow up at the end.

This Clinton actually recommends that owners take their horses out for a ride and do not come back until the horses saddle pad is dripping wet!!!

It was then end that made me feel irate but so upset at the same time. There Clinton is with the lovely TB standing next to him. The horse was lame and could not continue any 'training', they actually make an appeal for a companion home. He has the cheek to say they tried to retrain it but it didn't work, 'they gave it their best shot'!!!!! They broke the horse!!!

Obviously i don't know the full background to this TB but the program certainly tries to make out like these are the first training sessions the horse has had since finishing up as a racehorse.
Is it really educational to tell people that 'horses shouldn't enjoy their work', 'work them til they look like they will have a heart attack' and then demonstrate yanking the horses mouth til it is 'soft'? With this in mind i felt deeply saddened for the poor TB and any other horse he works with.

Could they not have taken their time to work with the horse from the floor (and i don't mean with the wand) to build up its musculoskeletal system just with long reining, lunging (using long sides). Gradually built up its stamina by increasing work load 5 - 10 mins a week then progress to ridden work and re-eduacting the horse slowly. 

Sorry this has turned into a rant, not really my thing but i was honestly so upset watching that program and to think people buy his dvds and do what he says. It may work for some and its each to their own.
If you have sky plus and want to tune in for yourself to see what im talking about it is on Rural TV tonight (tomorrow morning) at 4.30am.
Rural TV have an e-mail address for comments regarding the content they show on their channel, i for one will be writing to them and complaining.


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## FlashHarry (21 June 2009)

I completely agree with everything you have said. The poor horse (whose sides are heaving) looks petrified. I cannot for the life of me see any point in what he is trying to achieve anyway.


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## charlyan (21 June 2009)

QR-
I don't think that I have seen this particular episode, I did make it about halfway through one of his shows though before turning off in disgust.

I thought he was appalling.


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## mealrigghallstud (21 June 2009)

I thought he was darn right terrible too - just as bad as those god awful monty roberts drivel shows - it's too scary for words!!!!


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## Tinypony (21 June 2009)

Yep, I agree, don't like his approach at all.  Hopefully people will realise that there are a lot better "NH" type trainers than him.


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## xnaughtybutnicex (21 June 2009)

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I thought he was darn right terrible too - just as bad as those god awful monty roberts drivel shows - it's too scary for words!!!! 
	
	
		
		
	


	





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But at least monty roberts doesn't break the horses lol that guy is definately worse.


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## TPO (22 June 2009)

QR- having seen 5mins of "part 5" where he was "de-sensitizing" the horse to the whip and then half of part 7 where he wanted the horse to 1) move away from the stick and 2) stand still when rubbed with said stick his "training" seems to be a list of inconsistancies and the horse is punished for not being a mind reader.

He reckoned "lope them and lope them till they are going to have a heart attack and then lope them some more", "They should be wanting every stride to be their last", how is this horsemanship!?

Apparently to get a horse to move forward it's "squeeze, cluck and whack", progressing to "whack" as soon as possible if what I seen is anything to go by. But then when horse is moving forward to shut it down asap with a one rein halt, followed up with jabs in the mouth. What is that teaching the poor animal, other than making it a scared mess?

I appreciate the sentiment of the lateral flexion and "softening" of the horse, when I worked on a cattle station this was something that was done before mounting and as soon as you got on BUT it was done gently and the horse was released as soon as it tried. There is most definitely nothing to be gained from pulling the horse around and yanking it in the mouth. Especially given this is the horse's second ridden session, it's an OTT TB who I'd imagine could benefit from some sort of physio type thing.

I didn't see any "horsemanship". All I seen was someone getting off on the power they were exerting over a defenceless animal and nothing more than out right cruelty. What worries me even more is this is what was broadcast, what happens when the cameras aren't rolling? I'm pretty sure this guy has been mentioned on Fugly Horse in her black list of trainers....

No point just moaning about this on a forum. Rural TV who broadcast his "educational" shows can be contacted here http://www.ruraltv.tv/contact.php


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## Tinypony (22 June 2009)

No point in "moaning" about him to anyone I think, he's a very popular trainer, strange though it may seem.


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## acolvine (22 June 2009)

Ive written to Rural TV about him, its meant to be an informative/educational channel. How they can conclude his training methods as educational is beyond me. 

The more folk that contact Rural TV  the better the chance of getting the show from being taken off air.

I think actions will speak louder than words than in this case.


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## TPO (22 June 2009)

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No point in "moaning" about him to anyone I think, he's a very popular trainer, strange though it may seem. 

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moaning was wrong choice of word but you know what I mean.

I'm very aware of how popular he is. He's massive in America and is in all the western riding magazines with regular columns. But then so was Cleve Wells... Although not similar cases, that I know of, it shows that if enough people take action, instead of just "moaning" amongst themselves, then things do happen re Big Name Trainers.

That applies to all walks of lives, not just seeing something you don't like on TV.


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## padderpaws (20 August 2010)

I am a very big fan of his and love his methods.  It's not a whip he is using, that is something English people use to whip there horses around a menage in the name of Lunging.  

Actually I know people do not whip their horses around a menage in the name of Lunging but that is exactly how arrogant and ignorant you sound when you accuse him of whiping a horse to get sideways movement. 

What is soooo wrong with getting a horse yielding to pressure????

Just for the record I love Parelli, Craig Cameron, Kelly Marks, Monty Roberts, Troy Henry etc. They have all achieved great things with horses.  They can't ALL be evil, cruel Idiots can they??  OH well hey ho.


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## TicTac (20 August 2010)

He's totally unbearable and it makes me cringe to watch him.


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## Ladyinred (20 August 2010)

I managed one episode and saw him tie a horse in the sun with no water for an hour to 'think things over' after he had been worked. He makes me so angry I start to shout at the telly so OH has banned me from watching any more!


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## Echo Bravo (20 August 2010)

How about we all stop watching these people and perhaps a lot more of us and our horses will be happier and the NH people not so rich.


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## Pedantic (20 August 2010)

I haven't seen the particular episode you have mentioned, and I don't like the sound of it, but the stuff on youtube I have watched of his I have enjoyed.


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## fizzer (20 August 2010)

Not seen him at work so cant comment. I do think though uncomfortable viewing is not in any horsemans/womens favour.


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## thatsmygirl (20 August 2010)

We all shout and rave about all this nh **** so stop watching it, anybody with common sense knows it's all **** and there to take in the gullable.
I watched a video on you tube off a so called good nh person who tied a horses leg up and rode it like it to stop it bucking, disgusting but these people will always have followers but crist knows why.


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## yellowdun (20 August 2010)

[
Quote (What is soooo wrong with getting a horse yielding to pressure???? )

It's the way that a horse is asked to yield to pressure that upsets people. There are sensitive, kind ways of doing this, and as someone who uses pressure work I agree that sometimes people misread what is happening (but there is no excuse for hitting horses with sticks etc to make that movement away from pressure happen- that isn't training, it's abuse), but this case sounds disgusting and Anderson should have taken extra care with the poor horse who needs rehabing properly after such an injury.

Just for the record I love Parelli, Craig Cameron, Kelly Marks, Monty Roberts, Troy Henry etc. They have all achieved great things with horses.  They can't ALL be evil, cruel Idiots can they??  OH well hey ho.[/QUOTE]

Kelly Marks does some good work.


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## jojo5 (20 August 2010)

Did anyone see an episode of this guy's programme a few months ago, where he was supposedly working with a horse that was very hectic when getting off a trailer?  I was speechless.  The trailer was an American type - the sort with no ramp, where they step off the vehicle, sometimes backwards.  The owner had had problems with the horse rushing at speed out of the trailer as soon as he untied her.  CA got in the trailer with her, was in there for a while, and then suddenly she came violently back out of the trailer, and her back legs slipped underneath it, so she kind of half fell, half sat down with her legs under the trailer.  She got herself up, and CA decided they would carry on with the work even tho she had injured herself - he actualy says this on camera.  I was so horrified I showed this to my OH (non horsey) who was also shocked.
So is no one complaining about him in the States?

Can anyine tell me how to do those signature bars you all have?


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## guesstimation (20 August 2010)

I saw a couple of his shows some time ago and was appalled to be honest and not bothered since, think he was backing a youngster or retraining a racehorse, I can't remember now, was quite surprised so many people are fans and thought I must be missing something!


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## zefragile (21 August 2010)

Monsters said:



			We all shout and rave about all this nh **** so stop watching it, anybody with common sense knows it's all **** and there to take in the gullable.
		
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Is it any wonder that the NH people on here get defensive with posts like this?!


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## Reno22 (21 August 2010)

padderpaws said:



			I am a very big fan of his and love his methods.  It's not a whip he is using, that is something English people use to whip there horses around a menage in the name of Lunging.  

Actually I know people do not whip their horses around a menage in the name of Lunging but that is exactly how arrogant and ignorant you sound when you accuse him of whiping a horse to get sideways movement. 

What is soooo wrong with getting a horse yielding to pressure????

Just for the record I love Parelli, Craig Cameron, Kelly Marks, Monty Roberts, Troy Henry etc. They have all achieved great things with horses.  They can't ALL be evil, cruel Idiots can they??  OH well hey ho.
		
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I too am a fan of Clinton Anderson; from reading these posts I can see there is a lot of misinformation regarding him and his Method on this forum. It's sad to see him being so quickly judged without the knowledge behind one's judgement. He has great ideas and a is a very talented horseman


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## mollichop (21 August 2010)

Reno22 said:



			I too am a fan of Clinton Anderson; from reading these posts I can see there is a lot of misinformation regarding him and his Method on this forum. It's sad to see him being so quickly judged without the knowledge behind one's judgement. He has great ideas and a is a very talented horseman
		
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So you agree with his 'training' methods do you?

Personally, I want to have a partnership with my horse and want her to enjoy every step she takes when i'm onboard, not "wish it were her last"


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## Ladyinred (21 August 2010)

mollichop said:



			So you agree with his 'training' methods do you?

Personally, I want to have a partnership with my horse and want her to enjoy every step she takes when i'm onboard, not "wish it were her last" 

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I think the people that agree with CA fail to understand exactly what he is doing and the long term effect it might have on a horse.


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## jojo5 (21 August 2010)

In response to the last few posts, I am more than happy to accept all sorts of different types of horsemanship - in the main, I think they succeed because at the heart of all of them is the need to spend quality time with your horse.  However, I do think that it is possible to make a judgement about a 'trainer' when you see a video, as I mentioned, in which a horse is actally injured, and the 'training' continues at the request of the 'trainer'.   Do we need to know anything else at this point?


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## jillygem (21 August 2010)

jojo5 said:



			Did anyone see an episode of this guy's programme a few months ago, where he was supposedly working with a horse that was very hectic when getting off a trailer?  I was speechless.  The trailer was an American type - the sort with no ramp, where they step off the vehicle, sometimes backwards.  The owner had had problems with the horse rushing at speed out of the trailer as soon as he untied her.  CA got in the trailer with her, was in there for a while, and then suddenly she came violently back out of the trailer, and her back legs slipped underneath it, so she kind of half fell, half sat down with her legs under the trailer.  She got herself up, and CA decided they would carry on with the work even tho she had injured herself - he actualy says this on camera.  I was so horrified I showed this to my OH (non horsey) who was also shocked.
So is no one complaining about him in the States?

Can anyine tell me how to do those signature bars you all have?
		
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Saw that episode tonight and couldnt stop watching it for horror!! Poor little mare was worked so hard outside the trailer so that she would like to be in the trailer - even tho this then meant she was scared to leave it!!!??  Whats wrong with some nice praise and a handful of nuts?!!!! GRRR trying to contain rant!


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## RSL (21 August 2010)

Can you find it on you tube? its sounds dreadful!

But I am in agreement with you, I have watched a few parts on Rural TV and its disgraceful, shouldn't be allowed on there.


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## MissMistletoe (21 August 2010)

I watched a snippet of an episode a few days ago and saw Clint stood chatting holding a palamino mare who was breathing quite heavily and her nostrils were flaring. This was before he had even started doing anything with her. Didnt seem right.


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## Meowy Catkin (21 August 2010)

The trailer was an American type - the sort with no ramp, where they step off the vehicle, sometimes backwards. The owner had had problems with the horse rushing at speed out of the trailer as soon as he untied her. CA got in the trailer with her, was in there for a while, and then suddenly she came violently back out of the trailer, and her back legs slipped underneath it, so she kind of half fell, half sat down with her legs under the trailer.
		
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I also saw this and was also horrified. My Dad (non horsey) asked why they didn't get a 'proper' trailer ie, a british one with a forward ramp for unloading. He couldn't understand why they only opened one of the rear doors and had the horse stepping out of the trailer down a step which was in the horse's blind spot, she couldn't see where the hell she was going!

I had no answer.


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## RSL (21 August 2010)

I am really rather shocked that people can stick up for a man like that, yes we all have bad bits, know one is perfect but you do not hit your horse on the back hard until it moves away, you do not hit a horse in the face with a thick rope just to get him to back away.


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## Natch (22 August 2010)

I googled him. Have  look at the aussie tie ring.

Selling ice to the eskimos, perhaps?

http://www.downunderhorsemanship.com/multimedia/video.cfm?CFID=1862003&CFTOKEN=12970457


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## kinga (4 October 2010)

I have reflected for a while on these criticisms of Clinton Anderson and his training methods and I invite all of you to take a step back from your little worlds and take a better look at his method and philosophy. You may have picked out a few scenes that when isolated look ugly, but note this, when we trained cross country there was a lot more hitting and use of pressure than this. Have non of you ever used whips or spurs at all???? What do you own a cuddly toy or a real animal? Horses are always taught by application of pressure and the release of pressure. Have you never watched horses in a field interacting with one another? Does your horse respect you on the ground as well as under saddle? I am not going to give you a lecture on Clinton Anderson, I hope you will beg borrow or steal some dvd, book or even better subscribe to his no worries club so you can view all his tv episodes. When you have really understood his philosophy, then you can criticise.
His methods have been a real eye opener for me, long unanswered questions have been made really clear, how my horse interacts with me, how to make sure my horse always knows what I am asking her to do, what I should expect of my horse on the ground and under saddle. You obviously have beautifully trained and well behaved horses but just wait until you have a problem or encounter dangerous behaviour. Do you just excuse the horse and risk an injury? or do you get the horse's respect first? Once you have established respect then most other issues will be easy to resolve. Lunging takes on a new dimension, you can really see the horse interacting with you, it is very exciting and inspiring. I believe many trainers are incorporating his techniques, why don't you try? Check this out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPdllcnn_Dk&p=0E8A4A8BA40BE213&playnext=1&index=2
can you do this with your horse? you could, he shows you how to do it from a to z. It has not been achieved through cruelty as you all think but by gaining the horses respect. Try not to be so petty and narrow minded.


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## kinga (4 October 2010)

PS check this ground work video out too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dVWf-i7qpo and read the comments


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## Ladyinred (4 October 2010)

<Yawn> He is riding bridleless _in an arena_ Not so very hard to do at all.

I have yet to see horses in a field hit each other in the face for failing to be attentive. Have I missed something?

As I have stated countless times, respect has to be earned; 'respect' which is demanded is just another name for bullying.

And that is all the breathe I am going to waste on Clinton Anderson and his misguided devotees.


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## irishcob (4 October 2010)

This is the same Clinton that advocates the use of electric shock collars for horses.  Utterly unacceptable, utterly cruel.  There may be some impressive end results, but for me the ends do not justify the means.


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## Snickers (4 October 2010)

"This Clinton actually recommends that owners take their horses out for a ride and do not come back until the horses saddle pad is dripping wet!!!"

This is a strange thing, in american hunter/jumper circuit, they just adore the phrase 'wet saddle pad' and feel that it is the only way to train a horse.


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## Snickers (4 October 2010)

"He is riding bridleless in an arena Not so very hard to do at all"

When I was very young, I rode a slightly wild horse (bought for meat money from a dealer, dont ask ) and he got kicked in the face in the field and hurt his mouth, meaning that he couldn't have a bit in for a short period of time. Instead of doing what I would do if I was in a similar situation now (riding in a hackamore, lunging or loose schooling) I got up on him in the arena, and rode without anything on his head. After a week or two, we were pretty good, I could make him do more or less whatever I wanted, walk trot canter on each rein, stopping/starting, steering, leg yeild ect, and this was just a clueless kid on a badly behaved pony... So just backing up your point, riding without a bridle is not some magical thing that only NH trainers can achieve...


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## LisaG (14 November 2010)

My TB mare was a nightmare to load on a trailer when I got her, I used the only "English" traditional ways I knew back then... i.e.  bribe with food (NOT INTERESTED).... load another horse on before (WOULD EVENTUALLY GO), chase up from behind from another person (WOULD EVENTUALLY GO), lunge line behind the rear quarters (WOULD EVENTUALLY GO).... all these methods took up to an hour often to load. I even sedated her with Sedalin at times when I couldn't have anyone to help me load !!!  I knew she wasn't that nervous of actualling travelling, as she'd happily eat on the way and was never sweated up !  All these English methods involved me being dragged about by my mare, a lot of protest rearing and diving off the ramp and to the sides.... block the sides of the ramp and the rearing commenced and the barging got worse !  

About 8 months ago I watched Clinton Anderson dealing with a "difficult loader"... (an hour long programme...) I followed his techniques and within a few schooling sessions, (i.e. 2 weeks, couple of days each week doing 20 mins only) my horse started loading each and every time and with no need for 2 other people with me each time!  Quite handy really....  I have not "bullied" my horse into doing this, she goes when I point with my long lead line, no whacking needed, (my mare had obviously been previously wacked by English people before..., as just holding a schooling whip seemed enough intimidation), no harshness, nothing cruel at all !  I do use an NH style rope halter, as with an english style padded one, the horse can lean and drag you about quite comfortably ! So I am a completely converted Clinton Anderson worshipper now !  

Sorry to disappoint all those old fashioned English types, I mean, the English are meant to be the authority on horses throughout the world aren't we ??? 

But the negative comments above are obviously from people who..  A). haven't watched enough Clinton to understand fully. B). have perfect horses with no vices maybe, or C). are so stuck in some rut that they can't think or comprehend an easier and simpler way of dealing with the horses psychology... so therefore probably spend hours with a difficult loader, either trying to coax it in, or, intimidating it in... which I've seen far too many times in my life and that's usually to the detriment of the horses dignity !  For example I've seen a horse at a BHS riding school literally dragged in by about 6 men with a lunge line behind its hindquarters !  The poor thing had sat down like a dog and it still went in by physical force !!!


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## Daisy2 (14 November 2010)

Hi ya all... I am a Clinton Fan... got all the DVD's. I think he is brill. When I first got my bolshy mare I was nervous, so I used Clintons methods on the ground and in the saddle(maybe with a little girlie softy mommsy touch, mars and venus and all that), we have a fab relationship 5 yrs on and I trust her totally. I can understand peoples views and once you are closed to something or made your mind up,  its hard to come back. I like him because he is striaght and a good teacher of people, on the other hand, cannot be doing with Parelli horsanality and all that mind stuff, just cut to the chase, Monty Roberts, nice guy but slow and boring to watch. Just off to dry out my wet saddle pad, got left out in the rain ha!


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## silver zaanif (14 November 2010)

IMHO - another example of natural horseman-*****, or horse abuse, which ever you prefer. Its a horse, your a human, have some horse sense!!!!


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## Equilibrium Ireland (14 November 2010)

Wow, lots of Kool Aid drinkers on here.

I don't have much of an issue with the NH guru's as I do their followers. Because for most of us who do get it, we realize they have not reinvented the wheel and we already use these practices with our horses on a daily basis and have done for quite some time. No not playing games, but just common sense horse stuff. 

But see I like to ride too so the whole game playing crap doesn't suit me nor do I care that you think it helps you bond with ponykins. 

Watching DVD's, going to a few clinics, joining clubs is all fine and well, but when things don't go according to the 10 step plan who is there to help you out? Because I have seen people get hurt and horses get hurt because people didn't really get it.

Somewhere along the line things got blurred with horses. We all the sudden needed to pretend there was a fairytale ending. Look I love my horses more than anything in the world. My old guy doesn't need to be led in by a headcollar and rope, he follows me, but if I ask someone else to go and get him with one he generally tries to take the p""s out of them by trying to run into the barn. My now 6yo was ridden in from the fields at 3 before ever being broke with just a head collar and rope. But it is respect, not fairytale love, that makes my horses the way they are. And I also know that their love for me is of the cupboard variety.

And no I don't go around beating my horses at any instance but a smack on the shoulder for offences such as biting is in order. They are 1000pd plus animals and will get treated with this in mind. Ever watch a mare discipline her foal? Especially when that foal doesn't listen? They get the message pretty quick and it isn't in a nice way.

So yeah, NH gurus may be speaking to you in a language you now want to hear but it is in a nice neat little package. Problem is that it has been around for eons. Previous to these guys showing up you all seem to think that all horses were abused, beaten, and bucked out during the breaking process and in life in general. Most of the time, horses aren't difficult to figure out and most of the time you just need to be smarter than your horse and forget the fairytale la di da crap. Then you might enjoy them more.

Terri


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## silver zaanif (14 November 2010)

im sorry, i know i'm just going to open a can of worms, but i jut dont get it... how is this a training method?

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/80925308/

and its not an isolated incident, i see people calling it natural and doing things like this woman all the time. I think NH and Rolkeur or more correctly LDR( i may be making my own noose here upon which i shall be hung) are the same. When done right in experienced hands they can have a very posative effect. when done badly a total disaster and extreamly physicaly and mentaly detrimental. Unfortunately in both cases there is so little room for error.


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## Ladyinred (14 November 2010)

Equilibrium Ireland said:



			Wow, lots of Kool Aid drinkers on here.

I don't have much of an issue with the NH guru's as I do their followers. Because for most of us who do get it, we realize they have not reinvented the wheel and we already use these practices with our horses on a daily basis and have done for quite some time. No not playing games, but just common sense horse stuff. 

But see I like to ride too so the whole game playing crap doesn't suit me nor do I care that you think it helps you bond with ponykins. 

Watching DVD's, going to a few clinics, joining clubs is all fine and well, but when things don't go according to the 10 step plan who is there to help you out? Because I have seen people get hurt and horses get hurt because people didn't really get it.

Somewhere along the line things got blurred with horses. We all the sudden needed to pretend there was a fairytale ending. Look I love my horses more than anything in the world. My old guy doesn't need to be led in by a headcollar and rope, he follows me, but if I ask someone else to go and get him with one he generally tries to take the p""s out of them by trying to run into the barn. My now 6yo was ridden in from the fields at 3 before ever being broke with just a head collar and rope. But it is respect, not fairytale love, that makes my horses the way they are. And I also know that their love for me is of the cupboard variety.

And no I don't go around beating my horses at any instance but a smack on the shoulder for offences such as biting is in order. They are 1000pd plus animals and will get treated with this in mind. Ever watch a mare discipline her foal? Especially when that foal doesn't listen? They get the message pretty quick and it isn't in a nice way.

So yeah, NH gurus may be speaking to you in a language you now want to hear but it is in a nice neat little package. Problem is that it has been around for eons. Previous to these guys showing up you all seem to think that all horses were abused, beaten, and bucked out during the breaking process and in life in general. Most of the time, horses aren't difficult to figure out and most of the time you just need to be smarter than your horse and forget the fairytale la di da crap. Then you might enjoy them more.

Terri
		
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Not quite sure where this general rant fits in with the context of the thread? Oh well I suppose everyone is entitled to their say whether it makes sense or not. I think she is speaking against NH,  in which case I agree, but it isn't very fair to lump all of them alongside the rather nasty Clinton Anderson.

FWIW I believe he is far far worse than the old-school traditional trainers, and is an accident waiting to happen.


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## Equilibrium Ireland (14 November 2010)

I meant it in the sense that these threads are all the same. Flame NH guy and then get the NH followers saying why they are right. All the threads are similar. Maybe CA is far worse, don't know because only watched a few snippets before boredom set in. I personally don't dislike them as there are things I use that people would say you got that from so and so. Nope, learned that from other horseman over 35 plus years with horses. People today don't seem to get that, that this has been around for ages. It's just not been packaged so clever in the past, and that's fine too. But I do believe it gives very novice horse people a sense of being better than what they are and this leads to problems for both horse and rider. Some things you just learn over years and years of dealing with many different horses. 

A friend of mine is a big NH follower and that's fine. But she came to me in tears wondering why her ex racehorse was not paying attention to her on the lunge when she was doing exactly as taught and read how to do. I simply said her horse did not read the book so she might need a little more time to show him what she wanted. 

Terri


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## Ladyinred (14 November 2010)

Equilibrium Ireland said:



			I meant it in the sense that these threads are all the same. Flame NH guy and then get the NH followers saying why they are right. All the threads are similar. Maybe CA is far worse, don't know because only watched a few snippets before boredom set in. I personally don't dislike them as there are things I use that people would say you got that from so and so. Nope, learned that from other horseman over 35 plus years with horses. People today don't seem to get that, that this has been around for ages. It's just not been packaged so clever in the past, and that's fine too. But I do believe it gives very novice horse people a sense of being better than what they are and this leads to problems for both horse and rider. Some things you just learn over years and years of dealing with many different horses. A friend of mine is a big NH follower and that's fine. But she came to me in tears wondering why her ex racehorse was not paying attention to her on the lunge when she was doing exactly as taught and read how to do. I simply said her horse did not read the book so she might need a little more time to show him what she wanted. 

Terri
		
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That to me is one of the biggest problems and also the reasoning behind the explosion in NH and its followers. The marketing and hype has made every novice think that they are capable and that there are easy shortcuts to both learning and to imparting their 'knowledge' to their horse.

Having watched many clinics and demos full of dappy women waving long ropes around I can only conclude that many have more money than sense.

Nothing, but nothing, can replace experience and time spent watching and learning and the IQ to be able to identify the tried and tested techniques from the illusion and trickery.


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## spottybotty (14 November 2010)

I had not heard of this man until recently and I found this!!! I was quite shocked and appalled when I read this endorsment. Says it all really to me about the man and his methods!
http://www.tthorse.com/ae_clinton.asp

Apologies if this has been posted already, I have not read the whole thread.


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## Allover (14 November 2010)

spottybotty said:



			I had not heard of this man until recently and I found this!!! I was quite shocked and appalled when I read this endorsment. Says it all really to me about the man and his methods!
http://www.tthorse.com/ae_clinton.asp

Apologies if this has been posted already, I have not read the whole thread.
		
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Sounds to me like this is an adaption of the E-collar used on dogs which if they are used correctly can be of great benefit in dog training.  

It did mention more than once in the article that any piece of equipment is only as good as the person using it.


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## rhino (14 November 2010)

Allover said:



			Sounds to me like this is an adaption of the E-collar used on dogs which if they are used correctly can be of great benefit in dog training.  

It did mention more than once in the article that any piece of equipment is only as good as the person using it.
		
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Sounds to me like he is advocating punishing a horse for having a 'vice'. Many of these are really stereotypies and very often caused by the horse being stressed. Giving a stressed horse an electric shock will help how??

Just awful


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## spottybotty (14 November 2010)

Allover said:



			Sounds to me like this is an adaption of the E-collar used on dogs which if they are used correctly can be of great benefit in dog training.  

It did mention more than once in the article that any piece of equipment is only as good as the person using it.
		
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 I would never use this method on a dog , never mind a horse! In this article he is talking about using it on a stallion to repress its natural behaviour around mares FFS! We all might as well go out and buy ourselves a cattle prod and use that to train our horses.


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## Allover (14 November 2010)

roo2012 said:



			Sounds to me like he is advocating punishing a horse for having a 'vice'. Many of these are really stereotypies and very often caused by the horse being stressed. Giving a stressed horse an electric shock will help how??

Just awful 

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As it says in the article, it can work to stop unwanted behaviour, up to the individual as to wether they want to use it or not.


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## Allover (14 November 2010)

spottybotty said:



			I would never use this method on a dog , never mind a horse! In this article he is talking about using it on a stallion to repress its natural behaviour around mares FFS! We all might as well go out and buy ourselves a cattle prod and use that to train our horses.
		
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If you have seen some of the other "methods" employed to supress a stallions behaviour around mares, quite frankly a quick electric pulse is a damn sight kinder.


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## ScarlettLady (14 November 2010)

ok so there are lots of pros and cons for NH, personally its not my cup of tea, but SOMETIMES i can understand it.
I you tubed clinton though and found this video, poor horsey just doesn't look happy, I don't know the history etc. of this horse, what I do however find disturbing is the fact that the crowd are laughing! Its almost like the horse is 'stupid' not frightened, confused or scared, we should respect these animals not take the p1$$ out of them! 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jg9ueBkhqDE&NR=1


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## silver zaanif (14 November 2010)

Allover said:



			If you have seen some of the other "methods" employed to supress a stallions behaviour around mares, quite frankly a quick electric pulse is a damn sight kinder.
		
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please tell me i'm miss reading this and your not saying that useing electric to train a horse is in any way acceptable because its not as bad as other methods you have seen


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## Allover (14 November 2010)

silver zaanif said:



			please tell me i'm miss reading this and your not saying that useing electric to train a horse is in any way acceptable because its not as bad as other methods you have seen

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As it states in the article, we train horses to respect fencing with electricity, sometimes this is connected to the mains which is a damn sight stronger, i presume, than this collar. Rightly or wrongly people have used electric tape on top of doors to stop wind suckers.

Why is it ok then to stick sharp bits of metal in their sides to make them go faster, why is it ok to stick a lump of metal in their mouth to make them stop, why is it ok to strap their heads down and ride them off balance and confused?

And i have seen cases, with dogs only, where the e-collar has proved to be a life saver, literally.


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## silver zaanif (14 November 2010)

but Allover, it not ok to ride a horse like that, just because it happens it is not ok. spurs should not be 'stuck in to make them go faster' bits are not to make a horse stop, these are refinements of the aids, and some 'tools' or techniques should never be used whatever the rusult  they apparently get. compareing an training method used on dogs, to that used on horses is extremly misguided, not to say that electric on dogs is a good idea either. 
and as for electric fence , it is not tied to the horse.


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## Allover (14 November 2010)

No but these things are available and open to abuse, as would the "e-collar" be. 

The electric fence comes into play when the horse is showing "undesirable" behaviour i.e. touching or pushing at the fence. It gets a shock and learns not to do that behaviour again. The collar would not be turned on to an electric stimulous all the time i would presume. 

E-collars (the ones that i have come accross) are not painful, they are a light "shock", used after a vibration. I can understand the principle of them.


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## fluffalina (14 November 2010)

I quite like watching CA. He is a performer, and at least he doesn't tell you one thing and then does another behind the scenes, which is something I've seen on 2 occasions with 2 of the well respected big names....now that is shocking, especially when they advocate gentleness etc etc and turn out to be anything but in their real life!


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## silver zaanif (14 November 2010)

Allover said:



			No but these things are available and open to abuse, as would the "e-collar" be. 

The electric fence comes into play when the horse is showing "undesirable" behaviour i.e. touching or pushing at the fence. It gets a shock and learns not to do that behaviour again. The collar would not be turned on to an electric stimulous all the time i would presume. 

E-collars (the ones that i have come accross) are not painful, they are a light "shock", used after a vibration. I can understand the principle of them.
		
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i think we may have to agree to dissagree on this one


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## Allover (15 November 2010)

silver zaanif said:



			i think we may have to agree to dissagree on this one

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I will add that i would not use one on my horses.


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## JanetGeorge (15 November 2010)

fluffalina said:



			I quite like watching CA. He is a performer,
		
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He's a performer alright!  He performs acts of gross stupidity - accompanied by moronic commentary!  If he was dealing with lumps of wood I could laugh at him!  Sadly, he's dealing with live, sensitive animals!  If that's the sort of thing that passes for horse 'training' in Oz these days, then I'm glad I left!


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## LisaG (16 November 2010)

Allover said:



			As it states in the article, we train horses to respect fencing with electricity, sometimes this is connected to the mains which is a damn sight stronger, i presume, than this collar. Rightly or wrongly people have used electric tape on top of doors to stop wind suckers.

Why is it ok then to stick sharp bits of metal in their sides to make them go faster, why is it ok to stick a lump of metal in their mouth to make them stop, why is it ok to strap their heads down and ride them off balance and confused?

And i have seen cases, with dogs only, where the e-collar has proved to be a life saver, literally.
		
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Yes you are so right !  I know exactly where you're coming from Allover, people just blindly follow what's been done for years without thinking why... seems to depend on whats "commonly accepted" as not cruel and people just don't think outside the box enough! 

For example, I've noticed some younger vets these days don't use twitches anymore, it's like an old trend starting to die out.... which is good !  Also things like years ago (I was told by an old farrier), they used to put army horses in a type of "stock" to shoe them, horses that had never been really handled, horses going straight out to WW2, straight to battle and he said some died in these stocks the poor things !  I mean that was obviously acceptable back then... times change, thank god!!! 

If Natural Horsemanship was here in England 30 years ago, I wish I'd been taught it then !!!  Instead all I knew was BHS stuff !   Where has it been hiding for so long ???  

Anyway, I don't usually post here at all, but I felt really dismayed at all the negative NH comments. There always seems alot more negatives than positives, but I feel that in time things will change... I'll bet my boots on it ...

Also I personally think stabling is cruel lol.... (only joking) !  

My mares a weaver...  she definitely thinks it cruel lol !!!!!


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## somethingorother (16 November 2010)

Have there been some sort of strange experiments going on consisting of labotomising people and putting them back into society to see what the reaction is????

As if Mr and Mrs P aren't bad enough, there's a whole cult like following for this guy? He's a TOOL! 

If any of you ever looked away from your DVD's for a minute and watched your horses socialise with others, you will see how they respond to very slight stimulous. I can back most horses up and move them around with just body language and eye contact, even new ones i've not met before. That's how they do it amongst themselves. You don't need to hit it with a whip (under whatever name you want to use) to ask it to do a simple thing like that.

I despair at the state of 'modern' society.

P.s: This is not an example of 'natural horsemanship' in the same way Parelli isn't. It's an example of pushing a horse beyond its limit until it shuts down. If it's HN you're after, then this is the wrong tree to bark up. Maybe find a dictionary and look up the terms 'natural' and 'horsemanship' individually. If you can look away from your dvds...


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## perfect11s (16 November 2010)

JanetGeorge said:



			He's a performer alright!  He performs acts of gross stupidity - accompanied by moronic commentary!  If he was dealing with lumps of wood I could laugh at him!  Sadly, he's dealing with live, sensitive animals!  If that's the sort of thing that passes for horse 'training' in Oz these days, then I'm glad I left!
		
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Yes 
I think he should be renamed The downunderhand  horsebully ? but hey  why let good horsemanship get in the way of fame and money, it worked for pp !!!


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## lucyjade2 (26 September 2012)

If you actually take the time to study horse behavior you will see that horses use several methods to make another horse do what they want... this can include kicking another horse and biting with extreme pressure which when applied to another horse can really hurt hence a horse will move quickly away when bitten or kicked hard.
Natural horsemanship uses the same principles with pressure and release techniques...to say it is cruel to use a stick to apply gentle tapping/whacking to a horses hindquarters is ridiculousness as a horse can hardly feel it...not only this but how about all you people that support horse racing now that is cruel to repeatedly hit a horse again and again and again to get it to win is completely beyond my understanding, how about all the race horses that have to be shot due to injury....how about the disposal of horses that do not make the grade as race horses..oh yes they are being put down simply because they do not have what it takes..so who is worse the race horse fans or clinton anderson fans..I rest my case


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## fburton (26 September 2012)

kinga said:



			Horses are always taught by application of pressure and the release of pressure.
		
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Always? No, that's only one side of the coin. Learning is indeed achieved through pressure and its release, but believing that's all there is to it indicates a very skewed view of how horses learn.


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## FionaM12 (26 September 2012)

Just realized how old this thread is. Why has it been dragged up?


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## HBM1 (26 September 2012)

not sure if it is him, but I saw a photo recently of a woman sitting on a weanling looking proud as punch with a "well-known Australian trainer" by her side....it was truly infuriating to see and the poor foal looked incredibly unhappy.


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## fburton (26 September 2012)

lucyjade2 said:



			If you actually take the time to study horse behavior you will see that horses use several methods to make another horse do what they want...
		
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The fact that you are talking in terms of horses _making_ other horses do things is rather telling. There is a lot more to herd life than just that, and many other kinds of lesson we can learn from studying horse behaviour - which, by the way, I have done extensively.




			Natural horsemanship uses the same principles with pressure and release techniques...
		
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And that is where some (not all) of NH goes horribly wrong, imo. Just because horses _occasionally_ behave aggressively with each other and may even come to physical blows does *not* mean that we need to be rough in our handling, the antics of the likes of CA and Pat Parelli notwithstanding.


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## fburton (26 September 2012)

FionaM12 said:



			Just realized how old this thread is. Why has it been dragged up? 

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Just noticed too... How odd.


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## Pale Rider (26 September 2012)

CA is not my cup of tea.


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## Goldenstar (26 September 2012)

Well I can't get rural tv it sounds that my blood pressure is better for that. 
It took a week for it to recover from watching PP trying " to Train " that poor stallion who disliked being bridled ( my introduction to NH after reading a thread on here).


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## Enfys (26 September 2012)

Faracat said:



			I also saw this and was also horrified. My Dad (non horsey) asked why they didn't get a 'proper' trailer ie, a british one with a forward ramp for unloading. He couldn't understand why they only opened one of the rear doors and had the horse stepping out of the trailer down a step which was in the horse's blind spot, she couldn't see where the hell she was going!

I had no answer.
		
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When you use a 'step down' and back a horse out every single person I know, including myself, tell the horse "step" they _are_ _trained_ to back out and are used to the single door, which, when you think about it, is no more narrow than those godawful front unloads which I hate.

I_* can *_see both points of view, an awful lot of it is to do with what you are accustomed to. Some step-downs can be quite high, and yes a horse can slip, I don't like the high ones myself either, anymore than I like front unloads or very steep lorry ramps. 

It is swings and roundabouts, because step downs are not usual in the UK people are suspicious of them, understandable, you should hear what North American have to say about ramps and front unloads because they aren't that common! ... and as for horse lorries!!!!!! 

I think that just because something is different does not mean it is wrong...and that applies to everyone whatever their nationality.   (_Please_ note smiley face, I am making an observation, not arguing) 

As for CA, I haven't actuallly watched any of his videos so don't feel able to comment.


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## Capriole (26 September 2012)

because step downs are not usual in the UK people are suspicious of them, understandable
		
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Im English and wouldnt mind a step down trailer. Im not so keen on front unloads either and have a trailer with just a rear ramp, if there had been a step option I wouldnt have been adverse to having a look at one.

Goldenstar, I dont have the channel either, makes my bp glad too


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## amandaco2 (26 September 2012)

Watched it twice.thought it was load of rubbish both times as did barely horsey oh....


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## rhino (26 September 2012)

lucyjade2 said:



			to say it is cruel to use a stick to apply gentle tapping/whacking to a horses hindquarters is ridiculousness as a horse can hardly feel it...

not only this but how about all you people that support horse racing now that is cruel to repeatedly hit a horse again and again and again to get it to win is completely beyond my understanding, how about all the race horses that have to be shot due to injury....how about the disposal of horses that do not make the grade as race horses..oh yes they are being put down simply because they do not have what it takes..so who is worse the race horse fans or clinton anderson fans..I rest my case
		
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A horse can feel a fly land on its body 

Not sure about 'resting your case' as your argument makes no sense to  me. What on earth does horse racing have to do with anything  Trying to obfuscate the discussion on here with other things that may/may not be more cruel has no bearing on Clinton Anderson's methods in this context IMO.


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## dartanyan (28 November 2012)

I was aghast when I saw these postings.  

I have attended 4 clinics with Clinton Anderson, the first in 2002.  I'll take 4 more if he ever comes to the UK.  In short, not one of you nay-sayers has  a clue what you're talking about.  One of you pompously spouts off that we who like Clinton know nothing of the long term effects, and yet you know nothing whatsoever of Clinton Anderson's techniques, short or long.  I am 10 years on with his techniques and I'll go on with them until I no longer can.

It doesn't matter one jot to me whether or not you like the man.  Opinions are a ha'penny a dozen.  Many of you border on slander and libellous rantings, and you should be ashamed of yourselves.  This is exactly the kind of behaviour that was exhibited recently when a prominent peer in the UK was accused of child abuse without any evidence whatsoever.  

Love him or hate him, it makes no difference to me.  But do so based upon fact.  Judge people, if you must, by intelligent and accurate gathering of information derived from your own personal experience -- and not from your sitting room armchair blinded by your self-important musings with the bare bones of subjective evidence.  Which nincompoop of you thinks giving a horse a wet saddle pad is cruel?  And the unfortunate horse that fell during the trailer exercise was NOT INJURED.  Shaken up, maybe a bruise on the bum, but not injured.  Was it shocking?  Yes.  Dangerous?  Yes.  Which is exactly why he continued working with the horse to get it beyond its utterly hysterical fear.  Had he stopped the training at that point, he would have only reinforced the terror this horse felt when getting into a trailer.  Instead, the horse learned something that the trailer is not a horse-eating monster that going in and out of a trailer, calmly and slowly, was a non-event, no big deal.  More importantly, by liberating it from its fear, it guaranteed that the horse would never again be at risk from a trailer-loading injury.  In short, he made it SAFE for everyone.  I would have been horrified if he'd quit that horse.  But I know he would never have done that, because he is the consummate professional.  

For the record:  When the horse fell, Clinton was not inside the trailer, he was outside observing the behaviour the owner was very wisely seeking help for.  Get your facts in order, and educate yourself.  The trailer used was the owner's.  It's a slant-load with a tack room at the back.  That's why the doors don't open all the way and why there is no ramp.  I hate them and wouldn't own one.  But that's the owners choice, not Clinton's.

Treats and pony nuts don't work.  If they work for you, great.  Start training horses and prove Clinton wrong.  The simple fact of nature is that a horse is a prey animal.  You can only bribe predators; you can't bribe prey animals.  Fear and instinct override food.  It's flight or fight.  A horse has to be shown it has nothing to fear.  Pony nuts (food) can't do that.

First and foremost, Clinton Anderson is about safety, to both horse and human.  In my observation of horse herds, when one horse wants another out of its space, it isn't communicated politely nor gently.  It is done so through pressure, as fierce as the aggressor deems necessary.  Nothing I've ever seen Clinton do has been remotely as fierce as what one horse will do to another.  Before I purchased my gelding, I watched him run another gelding virtually into the ground, then back it into a corner and buck right into its chest three times.  To my astonishment, the 'victim' wasn't hurt.  But he was forever after submissive to my gelding.  Fortunately, my gelding never pulled such antics with humans.  But the point is obvious.  A stick and a string, a whack or a bump are not acts of cruelty.  Clinton Anderson does not use his tools with even a modicum of anger or frustration, much less cruelty.  He uses them with precise rhythm and sensitive consistency -- to communicate and train.  

I think it important to note that Clinton also is a generous trainer who makes his techniques about the horse and not about him.  He often trains wild or rescue horses that are auctioned for charity.  He trains people to be better partners to their horses.  He is fond of saying that horses don't want to be bad; they are only being so because some human has taught them that it's okay to be bad.  Humans reinforce that behaviour by treating horses like humans, like babies.  To those of you who do, I challenge you to spend a month in a herd, living as a horse, under horse rules

The gifts Clinton has given me through his clinics, his techniques, his kind personal advice, are unparalleled in my life with horses.  When I greet them each morning, they nicker excitedly; they willingly, respectfully, back away from the door as I enter, giving me all the space I need to deliver that delicious breakfast/dinner.  In the field, they come to me the moment they see me, eagerly.   If I have a halter, they put their noses into it agreeably, or sometimes they just follow me in.  Bes of all, they canter up when I whistle. Under saddle, they are my partners, my equals.  And in that equality, they accord me Alpha status, trusting me to make the right decisions for our herd of 3.  Farriers love to work with them; vets are impressed by their willing cooperation under often stressful situations.  At riding events, people tell me how lucky I am to have such great horses.  But luck has nothing to do with it.   I would not have this relationship were it not for Clinton Anderson, full stop.  Oh, I put in the work; but I couldn't have done so without Clinton's techniques.

I don't care what response this posting evokes, whether it produces support or indignation.   What I do care about is people spouting off their subjective impressions and mis-interpretations as fact and compounding this injustice by passing judgement upon those utterly ignorant spewings.  Whoever you are, if you passed judgement on Clinton Anderson -- or any other individual -- without FACTUAL, personal experience and knowledge, then hang your head in shame.  You are what's wrong with our push-button society.


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## fburton (29 November 2012)

dartanyan said:



			Treats and pony nuts don't work.  If they work for you, great.
		
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First you say they don't work, then you admit they might work for other people. So which is it? Has CA definitely said that using food as reward absolutely doesn't work (or is somehow 'wrong')?




			Start training horses and prove Clinton wrong.
		
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Lots of people have trained horses very successfully using food rewards. Type "clicker training loading" into YouTube for some examples of what regular folk have achieved. It clearly worked for _them_. (Btw, CT is just one specific way of using food rewards; it isn't the only one.)  




			The simple fact of nature is that a horse is a prey animal.
		
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So? Prey animals are also highly motivated to eat food. 




			You can only bribe predators; you can't bribe prey animals.
		
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Your use of the word 'bribe' betrays a fundamental misunderstanding that I have noticed is rather common in the NH community. It would appear that some trainers simply do not understand positive reinforcement - what it is (and isn't) and how it can be used to full potential. Prey and predators are really not so different when it comes to how reward works.




			Fear and instinct override food.
		
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Extreme fear certainly does, I won't argue with that. Naturally, horses also have a food instinct.




			It's flight or fight.
		
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You seem to be reducing all of equine behaviour and horse training to their reaction to frightening stimuli. If fear is avoided, bypassed or overridden (see below), teaching becomes a lot more straightforward. The temptation is to push a horse _through_ its fear by 'flooding', but that is obviously more unpleasant for the horse, and the end results are often inferior to 'little at a time' applied with sensitivity and patience. 

For example, I worked with a young Welsh Sec A pony stallion who was so fearful of having his feet handled that he was positively dangerous (rearing, striking and biting) and the farrier refused to trim his feet unless he was sedated. I used positive reinforcement first to train the pony to lift each foot to a cue. The use of food rewards dispelled the fear. It effectively short-circuited any bad feelings about people touching his feet and legs: a horse cannot be happy and eager to do something _and_ be fearful about it at the same time. Once the pony had learned to lift feet on cue - to offer the behaviour himself - it was a straightforward matter to habituate him to having his feet held for longer and longer periods of time, manipulated, tapped, rasped and so on. The only reason he let me hold his feet in the first place was that foot-lifting had become an activity with positive associations. There was no confrontation, struggle or upset, no need for ropes or restraint, no chasing in round pens, and almost no pressure.

I don't know how CA would have dealt with this pony. Would he try to push him through the fear? What I am sure about is that any approach demanding 'respect at any cost' would have had disastrous consequences.




			A horse has to be shown it has nothing to fear.  Pony nuts (food) can't do that.
		
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What food can do -- if used properly and not merely as a bribe -- is create a positive attitude to learning, as described above.




			And in that equality, they accord me Alpha status, trusting me to make the right decisions for our herd of 3.
		
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What exactly do you mean by 'alpha status', and are you aware of the difference between dominance and leadership in horse herds? Parelli appears not to be, and I am wondering where Clinton Anderson stands on this.




			Farriers love to work with them; vets are impressed by their willing cooperation under often stressful situations.  At riding events, people tell me how lucky I am to have such great horses.  But luck has nothing to do with it.   I would not have this relationship were it not for Clinton Anderson, full stop.  Oh, I put in the work; but I couldn't have done so without Clinton's techniques.
		
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I am happy for you and your horses, but please remember that other people can say exactly the same things about theirs, in equally glowing terms, even though they use methods far removed from CA's. His is _not_ the only way.

The horses I have owned and/or worked with, including stallions, nicker to me when I greet them; they willingly, 'respectfully', back away from the door as I enter, giving me all the space I need to deliver that delicious breakfast/dinner. In the field, they come to me the moment they see me, eagerly. If I have a halter, they put their noses into it agreeably, or sometimes they just follow me in. Yes, all of those things and indeed luck has nothing to do with it. Yet I have no connection with Clinton Anderson, and my methods are based more in learning theory rather than Natural Horsemanship (although imo what NH has to teach about body language, 'feel', timing of release, etc. is very useful; the stuff about hierarchy and 'respect', much less so).

I personally have no direct clinic experience of Clinton Anderson (but have 'audited' several other NH practitioners). My impression from what I have seen in video form is that he is overly rough, like Parelli if not more so, and needlessly hectoring. I know that can get results quickly. However, I also know that it isn't _necessary_ to get results quickly, and often results are better gotten slowly.

The unwillingness to be patient and take things in steps small enough for the horse to assimilate without major fear or conflict - exemplified by the desire/demand for quick fixes in demos - may also be a symptom of our push-button society!


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## dartanyan (29 November 2012)

You say nothing to dispell my assertion that you are completely ignorant of Clinton Anderson's techniques, and have no experience of them.  The pony you cite with fear of feet handling is a perfect example.  

I only made one point: If you do not have the facts in hand, do not criticise, do not classify, and do not accuse.


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## fburton (29 November 2012)

dartanyan said:



			You say nothing to dispell my assertion that you are completely ignorant of Clinton Anderson's techniques, and have no experience of them.
		
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I have been completely honest and open about my degree of ignorance. 




			The pony you cite with fear of feet handling is a perfect example.
		
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How is that?  




			I only made one point: If you do not have the facts in hand, do not criticise, do not classify, and do not accuse.
		
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Where have I done that?? I have stated that what little I have seen of CA gave me the impression that his handling was overly rough (and like Parelli in that respect). That is an _opinion_ formed from what I have seen. Other than that, I have made general points in response to your statement that treats don't work - because I was aghast at _that_ assertion - and asked a few questions. I haven't said _anything_ about the alleged trailering incident as frankly I'm not that interested.

You know all about Clinton Anderson's horsemanship. So what does he say (if anything) about positive reinforcement? What does he say about dominance and herd hierarchy? My guess is that he sets store by the latter because NH folk tend to do so and because of what you wrote previously: "when one horse wants another out of its space, it isn't communicated politely nor gently". To my mind this is irrelevant to training; we don't want or need to emulate this action. I certainly don't consider it an excuse for getting rough with horses to any degree. Does Anderson? This is your chance to correct our misunderstandings and set the record straight!


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## fburton (30 November 2012)

Just saw this quote in CA's book. It is the legend for a photo of a horse with its ears pinned running towards another horse.

"A dominant horse demands respect from the herd."

I guess that answers one of my questions. *sigh*


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## dartanyan (2 December 2012)

First -- and most important -- I do not "know all about Clinton Anderson's horsemanship" and I do not now, nor will I ever,  purport to.  I only know that his techniques have transformed my relationship with my horses, and the horses of friends.  I am not a trainer and never will be, and I do not speak for Downunder Horsemanship.

I will wager a guess, based on something I recall Clinton saying at a clinic but I stress emphatically that this is based upon a memory, not specific fact.  So, expecting that everyone understands, what I recall is this:  Someone asked Clinton about his techniques being NH.   His reply was something along the lines of what's natural to a horse is to be with its buddies in a herd, being a horse.  That there is nothing natural in what humans ask horses to do.  I thought I detected a bit of horror in having been called NH.  Just my impression, but, be it Clinton's, Parelli's, Roberts', or your way it isn't natural.  It is an imposition of our will upon them.  How we do that is what differentiates us from one another.

You are, in effect, asking me to enlighten everyone to Clinton's techniques.  I don't have that authority.  Plus, it isn't of interest to me.  He is not a Messiah and I am no one's Disciple.  The entire crux of my original posting is about pronouncing judgements without being in possession of the facts.   YouTube videos are rife with subjective, editorialised content and, as such, cannot be used in evidentiary support of any assertion -- positive or negative.  If it is Clinton's own video, then he is solely responsible for that content.  But even then, if the viewer has already made up their mind, or has decided their way is better than anyone else's, the end result will be the same.  A closed mind is deaf, mute and blind.  And dumb.

If you truly want to know about his methods, you have to start with an open mind and make serious effort. YT videos are not the way to do this.  You have judged him and his techniques based mainly on YT and in making those judgements, you have accused him of being 'overly rough', criticised him and most certainly classified him.  Are you saying it's okay to be rough but not 'overly' so?  I come from the school of first-hand experience.  If I don't have it, I keep my mouth firmly shut.  In all candour, I didn't like him when I first saw him on tv.  But I continued evaluating the pros and cons.  I found far more pros.

It is very difficult to use written words to explain a technique.  Even instruction manuals don't do it very well.  Important things are missed accidentally.  But, I will try to reply to your query about the pony's fear of feet handling because I hope will at least shed a crack of light on your steadfast opinion that CA doesn't 'do' positive reinforcement.  However, that can only happen if you open your mind to it

Here is what Clinton taught me to do:  Approach pony with passive body language.  As soon as you see pony react (e.g., tense up, head up, etc.), STOP!  That's what he calls the 'red line' and it becomes the 'starting point' for training.  But if pony moves its feet away from you, you must continue to approach passively until pony stops completely.  Then do not move until it relaxes (licks lips, cocks foot, sighs, lowers head, etc.) or stands still for 10-15 seconds.  When that is achieved, immediately walk away (retreat).  Repeat approach/retreat scenario, going a bit closer each time until you can touch pony.  Touch with firmness (like a good massage), and rub, rub, rub, and then rub some more. Retreat.  Repeat.  Retreat.  Repeat.  Rub pony all over body.  Lets pretend we can now touch legs all over.  Rub up and down the leg so pony is totally bored by the feeling.  You can't lift its feet until it hasn't a care in the world that you're messing with its legs, so don't go to the next stage until that one is achieved.

To get pony to lift its leg, tap (with your finger) gently 3 times on the inside of the leg, below the knee.  Nothing, of course, will happen because pony doesn't understand yet.  Tap 3x, wait, if no response GENTLY pinch the chestnut, increasing pressure until pony shows the slightest reaction to lifting its foot, e.g., bending knee.  IMMEDIATELY retreat.  Repeat process, rubbing up and down leg, tap 3x, pinch chestnut etc.  When pony finally lifts leg completely off floor with the tapping cue, hold foot very briefly and release (before pony gets tense and takes it away).  When you can hold pony's foot, tap it gently all over and release when pony shows relaxation.  Rub pony all over body.  Depending on how long this takes, pony may need a break or a distraction of some kind.  Return to training when appropriate, repeating same technique on all 4 legs, graduating to tapping pony's feet with hammer and that will need to be very fierce tapping to emulate a farrier. 

This technique, reiterated by me on this forum, may have changed or been adjusted by CA since I learned it.  But the approach/retreat technique is the same.  When the horse relaxes, the pressure stops.  Or, when the horse relaxes, the scary object goes way, etc.  No pushing, no fear, no aggression.   I have never known Clinton Anderson to use those tactics.

As a trainer, one of CA's greatest attributes for me is his repetitive instruction.  I've heard much of it thousands of times, but I still listen because this human learns by rote.  As I said, I'm not a trainer.  To do my best for my horses, I need that repetitive reinforcement.  So, Clinton has countless favourite sayings and here are a few:  As gentle as possible, as firm as necessary; It takes as long as it takes; make the right thing easy [work], the wrong thing hard [work], AND... respect without fear.  

I think this is positive reinforcement.  I don't, however, think it is how you view positive reinforcement.  Fair enough, but because you don't see it that way, doesn't make it fact.

What I said about my horse's behaviour had nothing to do with other people's horses, nor their choice of training/trainers.  It was a rebuttal in response to the person who spouted off that CA's techniques could damage horses in the long-term. However, because you have prejudged him, you think I am prejudging you.  I am not the one who went on a forum to criticise your techniques and make misleading statements about you, with great authority.  I stepped up to defend Clinton's techniques, and speak out against misinformation (he was being called 'cruel').  Your defensiveness is unwarranted, because you've not been attacked.  It's not about bragging rights.

There are a multitude of ways to train animals and humans.  I've no knowledge of your methods so I make no comments whatsoever, much less judgements.  You have misconstrued what I said about food not being a way to get a horse in a trailer.  I stand by that.  But you changed the complexion of that statement.  Of course food can be used in training.  It's the training that is the key.  If your horse liked a song and a dance and you did that whilst training, that would work, too.  But standing on a loading ramp with a bucket of feed, inching slowly inside as a means to get a horse into a trailer won't work if it's not trained properly.  Horses aren't stupid.  Many know it's the best way to get their favourite treats, and when they're good and ready, or bored, they'll go in the trailer.  I've witnessed that scenario countless times, and have marvelled at the cleverness of the horse and the stupidity of their humans.  That's not training; it's reinforcing bad behaviour.  If the horse is sold on, its new owner will have a horse that won't load because no seller is going to say 'he goes into trailer if you bribe him for 45 minutes'.

Prejudice is sight-deprivation.  It cheats us of the truth, of reality.  You have blindly judged CA, and have now decided that I'm saying you're wrong and I'm right.  Nothing of the sort.  Your choice is yours.  I am not responsible for you.  I do not encourage anyone to make the choices I make in life.  I don't take responsibility for anyone but me.  My only point remains the same:  Get ALL the facts in order from first-hand experience before passing judgement and making unequivocal statements.  You can't pick and choose the bits you don't like, and then condemn the whole.  And you have done this, because you accuse CA of using "quick fixes".  Wow, if I had a quid for every time I've heard him shout at the audience "there are no quick fixes!!!", I'd retire and support my family, friends and end world poverty.  

I'm not 100% sure, but it seems you want to think ill of CA (and perhaps many others you refer to as NH), and if so, there is nothing anyone could do to alter that.   But even if that's not the case, I am not interested in changing you nor your training techniques.  This is about drawing conclusions based upon flimsy -- and wrong -- information.  You truly do not have a factual grasp on CA's techniques.  And it troubles me that definitive judgements are made with strong assertions that create more prejudice.  Clinton Anderson does not use fear to train a horse.  Please change this way of thinking, if nothing else.  You don't have to like him nor employ his techniques, but you are wrong about this.  He does not use fear.


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## dartanyan (2 December 2012)

I've just seen your recent post with an alleged quote from a CA book.  Why does this bother you?  You even add a 'sigh' of exasperation.  Why?  What do you want from animals?  To show them it's a kinder, gentler world?  Well, me too, but.. it isn't!  I mean, it's a fact of nature.  Stallions will fight to the death for control of a herd.  Dogs, cats, chickens (geez louize, my hens are monstrous to one another!), birds in general they all use dominant energy to prove their worthiness.   Females choose the dominant, strongest male to breed with.  I can't bear to watch 'cuddly little chimpanzees' when they go into dominant mode.  They will seek out the weakest link and kill it.  Why do you seem to want to change the natural instincts of animals into something other than it is?  It's anthropomorphic.  Or is it that are you focusing the word 'demand' and misconstruing as aggression?  Or are you saying it's all a fake, horses aren't like that, and CA created the image of this aggressive horse in Photoshop to support his techniques??  Of course, you aren't, but that post says a great deal about your mind set.  You've nit-picked yet another microscopic example to protect and defend your negative view.  Why?  To make you look better than him?  Although you asked me to set the record straight, I don't get the impression you really want me to do that.  Anyway, it doesn't need to be because it already is; it speaks for itself.  However, you won't hear it if you are only listening for the detrimental 'gotcha' moment to distort the facts.

I don't anthropomorphise.  Animals are animals.  I owe  them respect, and that means I must learn to speak, and understand, their language.  Not the other way 'round.  It distresses me when my gelding takes a chunk out of my mare's neck, but it doesn't bother her one bit.  She goes back for more.  They have taught me (not Clinton nor anyone else) how to use energy and pressure to communicate with them because they are 'black and white'.  Any grey areas signify weakness and expose them to danger, attack.  This is how the universe, as we know it, exists.  If you want to buck that fact, go for it.  Change the world, it needs it.  But don't deny nature and insist it's not that way.  It IS that way.  I think your sticking point is in understanding that strong, intentional energy does not have to equate to aggression.  I know there are a lot of humans who cannot say what's on their minds nor express their feelings without their anger to support them.  This is not something I need.  And I feel confident in saying that Clinton Anderson does not need it either.  

May I ask what you mean by your statement "I have 'audited' several other NH practitioners"?  'Audited'?  This suggests some 'official' capacity?  Would you clarify?


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## FionaM12 (2 December 2012)

Someone's got a bee in their bonnet! 

A new user digging up an old thread from years ago, to write huge lengthy essays on it! I'm guessing you're connected very closely to CA (who I admit to having never heard of), or are something of a fan?

Well... welcome to the forum. A very unusual way to start!


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## Tinypony (2 December 2012)

I believe this is what is called in some quarters a Zombie Thread.  )

I've never met Clinton Anderson, but have friends who have.  From what they say I don't think he'd give a monkeys what people on the H+H forum think of his approach.

Oh, I've read back, really funny to see someone arguing their version of "equine behaviour" with Fburton.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (2 December 2012)

Just another reason for me to hear or read the words 'Natural Horsemanship' and turn away.

ETA - didnt realise this was an old thread


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## Tinypony (2 December 2012)

Ah, you know, I'm sort of under the "nh" ish banner and my horses are happy little souls that live pretty un-traumatic lives.  NH covers a very wide spectrum.


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## brighteyes (2 December 2012)

FionaM12 said:



			Someone's got a bee in their bonnet! 

A new user digging up an old thread from years ago, to write huge lengthy essays on it! I'm guessing you're connected very closely to CA (who I admit to having never heard of), or are something of a fan?

Well... welcome to the forum. A very unusual way to start! 

Click to expand...

Not like you to suspect the unsuspicious?  To my mind dartanyan speaks a lot of sense.

I don't actually care about who thinks what about NH.  I have seen it 'used' by a very unassuming and unshowmanlike 'normal' person to good effect. I'm not sure what the ears pinned expression is all about in some of the CA videos, but the horse I saw was completely relaxed. It wasn't circus tricks but the basics put in place and used. It was effortless and all done on subtle signals.

Horses are not polite to each other and I'm not suggesting we bust straight in there all aggresive, but they use signals we can't hope to replicate (who can make an ear flick back?) and if that is ignored, a swift nip or kick might well be the next offering!  How many owners have found themselves being walked all over because they have missed the pecking order being rearranged gradually, then realized that somehow, the horse is above them? And tried to attribute it to anything except ignorance and negligence on their own part to see and understand how it works in horses?

I'm not into the spectacular displays of horse control under saddle or on foot but for horses to be of any value to most people they have to be either edible or capable of fulfilling another role - usually under saddle doing VERY 'abnormal-for-horses' stuff. In fact, making them into a meal is the most normal thing we do to them, in terms of a horse's existence!

I'd mostly prefer sensible NH to get them to do the crazy stuff we want, to botched and half-baked BHS methods, very few of which apply any horse sense whatsoever.


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## Ladyinred (2 December 2012)

Methinks Dartanyan (looks awful spelled that way) has an agenda here.

Nothing, no amount of preaching, video watching, or attempted brainwashing will ever convince me that Clinto Anderson should be allowed within 100 metres of any live horse.


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## amandap (2 December 2012)

Tinypony said:



			Oh, I've read back, really funny to see someone arguing their version of "equine behaviour" with Fburton.   






Click to expand...

... and it's not me for a change. 

I do have some empathy with some views Dartanyan takes ie. re defining Nature but the little I have seen on video of CA is not to my personal taste so I have never bothered to investigate further.

Re NH, it depends on your definition but it has always been my foundation.


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## CorvusCorax (2 December 2012)

Pssst...'D'artagnan'

Or Dogtanian, whatever floats your boat.


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## FionaM12 (2 December 2012)

brightinsel said:



			Not like you to suspect the unsuspicious?  To my mind dartanyan speaks a lot of sense.
		
Click to expand...

I'm not really being suspicious  I was just commenting that it's rare to see such huge posts from someone new here. Especially on a post which is a couple of years old. 

I wasn't commenting on the content, I don't know CA or his work.

As I say, clearly a huge fan or connected in some way.


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## perfect11s (2 December 2012)

Makes PP look like a amateur when it comes to marketing and he has an ego the size of a planet


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## Tinypony (2 December 2012)

amandap said:



			... and it's not me for a change. 

I do have some empathy with some views Dartanyan takes ie. re defining Nature but the little I have seen on video of CA is not to my personal taste so I have never bothered to investigate further.

Re NH, it depends on your definition but it has always been my foundation.
		
Click to expand...

Yep, I thought "Makes a change that it's not amandap posting about behaviour..."  LOL!
(I've sent you a pm over on my forum.  x)


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