# A new one on me, SPRINGBATTS!



## Fools Motto (17 February 2013)

Can you guess what they are? 

Don't worry too much, these are 1st generation so must be top notch!


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## horsies4coursies (17 February 2013)

just googled and came up with this as had to find out what they were 

http://manorroyspringbatts.webs.com/previouspuppygallery.htm

my first question is why would you?


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## s4sugar (17 February 2013)

To answer the first question -a fool & his/her money are soon parted!

Basset rescues have had more than a few calls about these.


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## Venevidivici (17 February 2013)

Wow,the Bassett genes seem really dominant in those photos. But I agree,why would you?


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## Nicnac (17 February 2013)

It makes me smile.  We have been cross breeding horses for years but don't, as far as I know, assign stupid names to the outcome.

Anyone for a Thoroughsian; or a Musblood; or a Welshmoor?!

Those puppies look, just, well, wrong.....

Would love a Shih tzu/Poodle cross - the look on people's faces when you tell them your dog is a Shihtpoo....


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## stargirl88 (17 February 2013)

Apparently they also breed black, chocolate and yellow labs, wahey!


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## s4sugar (17 February 2013)

What a load of tosh on the website but people belive the drivel. They claim to be "We are licenced with the local authority and 1 of only 2 kennels in Cambridgeshire that are actually licenced breeding kennels." when a very quick search finds 18.
A first cross basset x springer will invariably be smooth coated as the smooth gene is dominant over the longer coat.


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## EAST KENT (17 February 2013)

Have to say they are attractive though,and I NEVER thought I would say that of a crossbred!


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## ClobellsandBaubles (17 February 2013)

Nicnac said:



			It makes me smile.  We have been cross breeding horses for years but don't, as far as I know, assign stupid names to the outcome.

Anyone for a Thoroughsian; or a Musblood; or a Welshmoor?!

Those puppies look, just, well, wrong.....

Would love a Shih tzu/Poodle cross - the look on people's faces when you tell them your dog is a Shihtpoo.... 

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In the states they have quarabs and araapaloosas


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## Nicnac (17 February 2013)

Cloball said:



			In the states they have quarabs and araapaloosas 

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Oh dear do they   Learn something new every day! Only in America as my Dad is fond of saying


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## fallenangel123 (17 February 2013)

There is a puppy farm near us that breeds them, un registered 'pedigrees' and a wide selection of whateverpoos as well. Currently on preloved they have about £14000 worth of puppies advertised!
  Wonder if the taxman knows?


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## Superhot (17 February 2013)

If the website is to be believed, this cross was carefully considered to reduce health issues in both breeds.  Whilst I applaud their sentiments, the pups remain mongrels and perhaps careful breeding of the individual breeds could have reduced health problems anyway?


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## Fools Motto (17 February 2013)

http://www.facebook.com/springbatt.puppies?fref=ts


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## Dobiegirl (17 February 2013)

Both bred for different jobs, now can do neither.


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## Clodagh (17 February 2013)

Can you imagine the drive of the spaniel and the stubbornness of the bassett! (I assume thats what they are, haven't loooked at links, meant to be cooking!)


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## Cinnamontoast (17 February 2013)

horsies4coursies said:



			just googled and came up with this as had to find out what they were 

http://manorroyspringbatts.webs.com/previouspuppygallery.htm

my first question is why would you?
		
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On the puppies for sale page, there's a litter with what looks like a black lab. Confused, but not as confused as the puppies!



Superhot said:



			If the website is to be believed, this cross was carefully considered to reduce health issues in both breeds.  Whilst I applaud their sentiments, the pups remain mongrels and perhaps careful breeding of the individual breeds could have reduced health problems anyway?
		
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What health problems? And exactly, health test the pedigrees and you're more likely to get a healthy litter. What's the betting the parents aren't properly health tested?


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## ester (17 February 2013)

I'm surprised how bassett like they look, do we think they were very small springers!


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## Jhanami (17 April 2013)

I happen to own (and dearly love) a Manorroy Springbatt - and am happy to answer any queries 
I've always prefered mongrels on account of them being often more healthy (in body and mind) than many overbred pure breeds, but always loved the look of Bassetts. Springbatts make a perfect mix - they look quite bassetty (albeit not to the extreme), but have a bit more springer-y brains and none or few of the famous Bassett health problems. 
They are family friendly, cuddly and quite tenacious little walkers - no idea why some people on here seem to be offended by the name, call them Springer-Bassett-Cross if it makes you happier.
They are, however, not a designer/fashion fad but an honest (and successful) attempt to breed healthy, happy, gorgeous hounds. 
If you dont like that, go and cry in the corner!  

Btw, I'm not the breeder, just a happy customer!


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## FubsyMog (17 April 2013)

Nicnac said:



			It makes me smile.  We have been cross breeding horses for years but don't, as far as I know, assign stupid names to the outcome.

Anyone for a Thoroughsian; or a Musblood; or a Welshmoor?!
		
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http://snarkyrider.com/2012/07/09/da-dada-daaaa-the-throtron/

'Nuff said


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## Dobiegirl (17 April 2013)

Jhanami said:



			I happen to own (and dearly love) a Manorroy Springbatt - and am happy to answer any queries 
I've always prefered mongrels on account of them being often more healthy (in body and mind) than many overbred pure breeds, but always loved the look of Bassetts. Springbatts make a perfect mix - they look quite bassetty (albeit not to the extreme), but have a bit more springer-y brains and none or few of the famous Bassett health problems. 
They are family friendly, cuddly and quite tenacious little walkers - no idea why some people on here seem to be offended by the name, call them Springer-Bassett-Cross if it makes you happier.
They are, however, not a designer/fashion fad but an honest (and successful) attempt to breed healthy, happy, gorgeous hounds. 
If you dont like that, go and cry in the corner!  

Btw, I'm not the breeder, just a happy customer!
		
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But the parents are not health tested, the pups are being sold with endorsements which though commendable the cynical me says they want to limit the numbers so they get all the customers.


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## Jhanami (17 April 2013)

cinnamontoast said:



			On the puppies for sale page, there's a litter with what looks like a black lab. Confused, but not as confused as the puppies!


What health problems? And exactly, health test the pedigrees and you're more likely to get a healthy litter. What's the betting the parents aren't properly health tested?
		
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1. That's the owners own dog - he babysits the puppies when they venture first outside, whenever the mum's resting 

2. Huh? Why would you assume that? The parents are perfectly healthy and of course they are tested. I know there's a lot of rogue breeders out there, and cutsie/daft names can be an indication of dubious breeding standards and stupid fashion fad buyers but it's not the case in this case. Honestly, go and have a look at those dogs, you'll probably end up on the waiting list for the next litter


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## CorvusCorax (17 April 2013)

You might want to inform the breeders, that if the breeding animals are health tested, the health tests should be recorded on the website, it normally goes, dog's name, hip scores, elbow scores, etc, under the picture of the breeding animals. Good breeders shout good health results from the rooftops 

If I don't see health tests on a website, I just close the website, purebred, crossbred, whatever, I'm not interested and I wouldn't direct anyone towards that breeder.


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## Jhanami (17 April 2013)

Dobiegirl said:



			But the parents are not health tested, the pups are being sold with endorsements which though commendable the cynical me says they want to limit the numbers so they get all the customers.
		
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Sure they want to limit the numbers and get all the customers, it's their life and liveliness and a lot of effort, time and money goes into breeding dogs if you do it right - a side effect is that it keeps puppy farms and bedroom breeders who are after a quick coin out of the market, in my books that can only be good. 

A lot of us batt owners know each other and stay in touch, so we're quite well informed how all the litters are doing, how they grow up and develop and so far there haven't been any negative stories (apart from sock stealing, rabbit chasing and toilet paper eating, but I'd say that's not just a batt thing


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## s4sugar (17 April 2013)

Jhanami said:



			I happen to own (and dearly love) a Manorroy Springbatt - and am happy to answer any queries 
I've always prefered mongrels on account of them being often more healthy (in body and mind) than many overbred pure breeds, but always loved the look of Bassetts. Springbatts make a perfect mix - they look quite bassetty (albeit not to the extreme), but have a bit more springer-y brains and none or few of the famous Bassett health problems. 
They are family friendly, cuddly and quite tenacious little walkers - no idea why some people on here seem to be offended by the name, call them Springer-Bassett-Cross if it makes you happier.
They are, however, not a designer/fashion fad but an honest (and successful) attempt to breed healthy, happy, gorgeous hounds. 
If you dont like that, go and cry in the corner!  

Btw, I'm not the breeder, just a happy customer!
		
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No they are not a " honest (and successful) attempt to breed healthy, happy, gorgeous hounds" they are a puppy farmed product to sell to people too stupid to do proper research or support responsible breeding. Their success is the money they make from suckers.

Did you not consider a Basset Artiesian Norman or a pack Basset? Do you know what health problems are common to ESS & Bassets? (Especially to the poorly bred, untested ones uesed for crossing?)

Many Bassets have more brains than some springers. Have you seen the odd pup they advertise with deformed front legs? 
I don't cry in the corner -I assist breed rescues and have to turn away a lot of these crosses that get sold with no back up. They don't endorse the unregistered pups & the dallies & labs are not breeding quality either. No health tests, high volume breeder breeding purely for the pet market = puppy farmer.


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## blackcob (17 April 2013)

If I wanted to move away from the 'overbred purebred breeds' I wouldn't be starting the line with a breed with grossly exaggerated features, nor liaising with a breeder who is churning out such a large number of pups. Including those of 'overbred purebred breeds' (I note they also breed labradors and dalmatians, in such numbers that they have to be council licensed). To be fair the two retired/deceased labrador stud dogs have hip scores and eye tests mentioned, though no mention of anything for the existing dogs. 

It all seems a bit pointless and however nice their facilities appear to be there's no reason for anyone to be producing litter after litter except for £££.


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## Jhanami (17 April 2013)

Wow. s4sugar - thanks for calling me stupid. Makes me really want to engage with you and your opinions. But since you apparently know everything there is to know about my dog, the puppy farm he comes from and the exact state of health of all his deformed-legged siblings, there isn't much point anyway, is there.

Blackcob, following the new litters along I didn't think they have that many - it's their business after all, and their full-time job, and their only income, but it's fair enough to question any breeder and their methods and so we all should. That's why checking any breeder personally, with your own eyes and making up your own opinion before buying a pups seems to me to be the way forward - rather than some people's arrogant "I've seen it all and know everything best" attitude.

I love my dog (he's 2 years now), he's a member of our family, and he's certainly neither a waste of money nor space. I didn't post to try and convert anybody, just wanted to show the other side of the argument pro cross breeds - from someone who actually knows the breeder and owns a dog from there rather than just judging based on a website (they are btw not professional website developers, I don't think that makes them bad people though).
I've tried to be quite factual and polite about it and would appreciate some reciprocity. 
"Go and cry in a corner" was meant as a joke btw (as the emoticon might have indicated for most). Jeez, one would think I'm planning to assasinate the Queen rather than defending my little hound. Would love to post a picture for you, but don't know how to attach one.


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## galaxy (17 April 2013)

J - cross breeds are not healthier than reponsibly bred pure bred pups from health tested parents.  "hybrid vigour" is a total myth.

If the web sighted stated (or you if you know) what health tests the parents have then people would not have such an issue for them.  Hve the parents had their eyes tested (not just looked at by a vet) and what are the hip and elbow scores.  Without these tests the dogs should not be bred from (and people on here feel the same way for people breeding pedigrees from untested parents)


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## CorvusCorax (17 April 2013)

Jhanami said:



			it's their business after all, and their full-time job
		
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Breeding dogs is their sole source of income?
Bish bosh, ding dog, that's enough for me. I'm out!


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## s4sugar (17 April 2013)

I have seen quite a few of these crosses -usually when the people get something they don't expect and come to experienced Basset people for help. They get conned by the best of both spiel and end up with all the characteristics they don't want.

They are only bred for money, not for any desire to promote or improve a breed. I did not see any facts in your post - only that you got lucky & didn't get queen anne legs, selective deafness and entropion or ectropion (which both breeds can have). A bit early yet for Glaucoma.
If you are stupid enough to hand over money rather than getting a mutt from a rescue or paying someone who has put effort & money into good breeding practices then that is your choice. Stupid is as stupid does.

The website is poor - not because they are not website designers but because it shows enough to con the inexperienced puppy buyer but leaves off the information that a dog savvy buyer would want. Therefore all of the buyers will be equally inexperienced which is why they get on together.

There is no reason to breed from dogs without breed appropriate health clearances.


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## Toffee44 (17 April 2013)

Jhanami said:



			Blackcob, following the new litters along I didn't think they have that many - it's their business after all, and their full-time job, and their only income, but it's fair enough to question any breeder and their methods and so we all should.
		
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I don't know any breeder who breeds full time. Dog breeding is not about the money it's about improving lines and dogs hence why health testing is crucial.

If this is their full time job they must be churning out many pups to support them therefore puppy farm/ BYB.

Give it a whole and we will see a few in local rescues when things become apparent. Based on no evidence my initial worry would be springer type behaviour on those basset bodies as with unknown hip scores hips won't support being constantly on a heavy bodied dog.


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## Jhanami (17 April 2013)

You criticise that it is someones actual lifelihood, that they do this job with heart and soul and not in a garage whilst pissing off to the office from 9-5 because it must somehow mean that they are money grapping greedy ******** conning harmless, but obviously stupid people like myself, into buying sub-standard time bombs of desease.

Dogs from there have been bred for about 11 or 12 years now, at least that's the oldest dogs I know - none of them (to my knowledge, and I'm in touch with about 100 other owners via our own online group) has ever had selective deafness, entropion or ectropion, and the Queen Anne's legs are quite rare and muted where they occur - none of the ones I know about had any problems with it.  
Loads of us own or have owned Bassetts in the past though and many of us had problems with the conditions you mention.

Thanks again for calling me stupid, was a pleasure to talk to you and be exposed to your eloquent ways of getting your point across.


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## Dobiegirl (17 April 2013)

s4sugar said:



			I have seen quite a few of these crosses -usually when the people get something they don't expect and come to experienced Basset people for help. They get conned by the best of both spiel and end up with all the characteristics they don't want.

They are only bred for money, not for any desire to promote or improve a breed. I did not see any facts in your post - only that you got lucky & didn't get queen anne legs, selective deafness and entropion or ectropion (which both breeds can have). A bit early yet for Glaucoma.
If you are stupid enough to hand over money rather than getting a mutt from a rescue or paying someone who has put effort & money into good breeding practices then that is your choice. Stupid is as stupid does.

The website is poor - not because they are not website designers but because it shows enough to con the inexperienced puppy buyer but leaves off the information that a dog savvy buyer would want. Therefore all of the buyers will be equally inexperienced which is why they get on together.

There is no reason to breed from dogs without breed appropriate health clearances.
		
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Priceless, you have surpassed yourself but I agree with every word you say.

OP I really hope your dog turns out to be one of the lucky ones and wish you well but you wont convince any of us that this breeder is not a puppy farmer, however cute the pups may be.


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## mrh1970 (17 April 2013)

Nothing like a debate about pedigree to get the manners left at the door, is there? 

I actually have one of these dogs. We bought it almost four years ago after deciding we wanted something a little different; my wife and I had previously owned pedigrees - she a Great Dane and I a Boxer - and did a lot of searching for something that would be good with kids, not shed too much and demand a reasonable amount of exercise without needing 5 miles a day. We were pointed in the direction of Mannorroy, looked into their background, saw the facilities a couple of times and have been thoroughly impressed not only with the quality of what we saw before we bought but with the level of support ever since.

Springbatts are frankly delightful dogs, with a relaxed temperament, outstanding with kids and other animals and - so far - no health issues. Ours sees the vet once a month and other than a slight tendency to put on the pounds when I'm working away and he's getting walked a little less he's been  perfect. Compared to my friend's Bassett he's a little heavier and a little less stubborn & independent, but the fact is that I'd happily have either (other than the fact that like any sensible dog owner I know that mine is, in fact, the finest mammal ever to walk the earth!)

It does seem a little odd to suppose that anyone who's cross breeding a) doesn't know what they're doing and b) is necessarily going to end up with something that's not right. Ultimately that's how we ended up with breeds in the first place.

Now, does anyone know where I can buy my daughter a nice Clydeshire for her birthday?


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## MurphysMinder (17 April 2013)

I'm with CC, anyone who breeds dogs as a full time job is doing it for the wrong reasons.
mrh, just out of interest, why does your dog with no health issues have to see a vet once a month.


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## Jhanami (17 April 2013)

MurphysMinder, i obviously disagree although im sure there are those who are doing it for the wrong reasons - simply because making a living out of your passion for me isnt per se a bad thing, but fair enough - do you think that about any full time breeders of any animals, or just dogs?


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## MurphysMinder (17 April 2013)

My issue is with dogs as it is dogs I am involved in.  IMO to make a decent living, after paying for health tests, feeding dam and pups etc,  a breeder would have to constantly have litters on the ground, which to me is not responsible breeding.


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## Dobiegirl (17 April 2013)

We paid £550 for our KC registered  Lancashire Heeler puppy fully health & DNA tested, our breeder only has the 2 bitches and Im sure she is  not going to give up her day job considering LHs rarely seem to have more than 4 puppies.

I will either buy a rescue or buy from ethically minded breeders who are in it for the love of the breed when I want my next dog.

Op when you bought your puppy did the breeder offer to take it back if you could no longer keep it.

Buying a KC registered pup also limits the number of litters the bitch can produce but the Springbatts breeder can keep breeding from that bitch until the cows come home.


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## Jhanami (17 April 2013)

I think they do have a lot of litters, but different kinds from different parents - that is Labs, Dalmations and Batts, with no mum having more than one litter every couple of years or so. 
I think it's great that everybody here is weary of puppy farms and rogue breeders, and we have all seen those horrible pictures of actual puppy farms - just saying since I know them personally in my opinion some of you got the wrong end of the stick. 
I don't  think there's that many breeders who stay in contact with all their puppy's owners, support them over years, and are always available and helpful (even if they publish eye tests and bone measurements).
Maybe if you live close by (anyone on here), go and have a look? 
Anyway, MurphysMinder, my pups is the best thing ever happened to me - one might forgive me for trying to give a different perspective - I'm sure you all would


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## GeeGeeboy (17 April 2013)

S4sugar- you always tell it like it is and I agree with you in this case!


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## Jhanami (17 April 2013)

Dobiegirl, they not only offer to take the pups back they make it a condition - since I am part of the owners group (2 1/2 years) there have been 2 re-homings due to divorce or similar issues and they have all been facilitated by the original breeder.

But then there aren't that many of them (despite some of you thinking they churn out thousands  and we are a pretty tight-knit community - we raised 3,5k last year to help one family to emigrate to Australia and be able to take the dog with them - its a bit like an extended family and I suppose I get quite defensive about them.

Maybe wiser to let it go - we won't convince each other any time soon


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## Jhanami (17 April 2013)

GeeGeeboy - everyone's entitled to their opinion, but it'd be nice to do that without resorting to patronising or insulting the other party. Maybe we can all agree to that, too?


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## Dobiegirl (17 April 2013)

When we bought our first Lancashire Heelers back in the late 1980s we stayed in touch with the breeder long after our dogs died so its not uncommon for breeders to stay in touch.

You never bought up the money part as I think £695 for a mixed breed with no health testing is ridiculous and something even if I won the lottery I wouldnt pay. Saying that if they were 50p I wouldnt be buying anyway and would rather take my chance with a rescue.

Any pups I buy I would want reared in the home and to be exposed to as much as a home environment as possible.


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## MurphysMinder (17 April 2013)

I think you will find most breeders stay in touch with owners of their pups, I certainly do.  Just last week I was contacted to be given the sad news that a bitch I bred had been pts at the age of 15 years and 2 months , at one point this bitch looked as if she might need rehoming and I did my best to help (some of the folks on here might remember me asking for help on here), luckily in the end this didn't happen and she had a wonderful long life.
Jhanami you are right we are probably never going to agree, commercial breeders who have several breeds will always have a ring of puppy farm to me.  However I am glad your pup is the best thing that has happened to you, I am sure that is how every breeder like their puppy owners to feel.


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## Crugeran Celt (17 April 2013)

EAST KENT said:



			Have to say they are attractive though,and I NEVER thought I would say that of a crossbred!
		
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I have a Springer x Welsh Collie and she is stunning. Can't believe you will dismiss all crossbreeds. Those pups look a little odd but very cute. Still don't quite understand why people pay so much money for mongrels seems very strange to me. Paid only the cost of pup's first jab for my cross breed and four years later when I wanted another one they were asking more for a 'Sprollie' than I paid for a pure bred springer! Mad. ( not the person I bought the original from I might add, she was an accident when the farm's working collie got in with the breeding, working springers.)


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## MurphysMinder (17 April 2013)

Crugeran Colt, personally I have no problem with crossbreeds. My issue is with people churning out crossbreeds, giving them stupid names as "designer breeds" and charging ridiculous amounts for them.


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## cbmcts (17 April 2013)

I think the 'hybrid vigour' myth is a hangover from the days of when there were true heinz 57 mongrels - you know, the ones that were collie x GSD x greyhound x pointer x terrier x spaniel x lab (always terrier in there somewhere, determined little sods that they are ) and that was just Mum! Dad would also have had as many breeds/types in his lineage... In those cases you will have a chance of good health or at least no hereditary issues.

Nowadays, true mongrels are rarer than hens teeth, mainly because of neutering and that dogs don't get to wander they way they did. There are crossbreeds instead, just a mix of two and maybe three breeds and a fair bit of clever marketing.


The problems with this are


a) you don't know which parent the pup is going to take after!
b) they have become fashionable, therefore have a market so attract unscrupulous breeders who see easy money. These puppy farmers used to produce pedigree litters but as buyers became better educated about health risks it became harder to sell them. With these crosses it is easier to peddle the myth that these will be hardier than a pure bred. BUT a dog will only be as good, healthwise as it's sire and dam - if they aren't properly health tested, what chance does the pup have? Exactly the same chance as a pup who had pedigree untested parents.
c) Nearly every pedigree breed has had its day of being in vogue - we've all seen and are still seeing the problems that has caused. These cross breeds are no different and the issues are starting to arise already. The dogs that aren't hypo-allergenic (the original reason for cross breeding), are inherently unhealthy just like badly bred pedigrees, temperament issues because they weren't socialised as pups and/or from farmed bitches are becoming a serious problem now.

The pups on that link are seriously cute as are all pups TBF. If the breeders were using dogs that were health and temperament tested plus had been out winning/working in their respective fields I would have no problem with them using them for cross breeding. (I might think they were mad but that's my prejudices showing  ). If that was the case wouldn't they be shouting it loud and proud on their website? Since they're not, I would have no option but to assume that these litters are from untested dogs and by that I would consider them BYB if not puppy farmers. I apologise for thinking that if it isn't the case but that's what it looks likes sadly.


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## galaxy (17 April 2013)

Jhanami said:



			GeeGeeboy - everyone's entitled to their opinion, but it'd be nice to do that without resorting to patronising or insulting the other party. Maybe we can all agree to that, too? 

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still in the dark as to what health test are done on the parents of these pups????


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## Jhanami (17 April 2013)

Crogeran - the reason why I paid that much is because I wanted that puppy - the fact that he should be cheaper on accounts of being a cross breed simply never occurred - and still doesn't  he was and is simply the best and worth every penny.  Wish I could show you - still haven't figured out how to post photographs though :/

MurhpysMinder, we came across a lot of people who's breeders do nothing of the sorts, event though they only do one litter per year and breed pure breeds, which is why seeing for yourself where they come from and who breeds them cannot be substituted. What dogs do you breed?

Regarding the issue of not being in the house - they are next door in their own inside space, in piece and quiet. When they are old enough they come into the house and you've seen them being baby-sitted by a black lab - they get exposed to all sorts of dogs and noises and people, they are on constant baby cam, and cuddled and loved and well looked after, whilst giving the mum and her litter their own space. Maybe not so wrong? 
No problem introducing our puppy into our house  

Our family's last two dogs have been rescues - I don't know why this is being bandied around as a 'I'd rather have that' argument - both of them were lovely lovely dogs, a border collie, and a liquorice all sorts, we simply fell in love with a Springbatt puppy this time. And I wouldn't dream of telling Doberman owners, or any other breed for that matter, that I'd rather have a rescue, as if that's somehow the moral high ground. Although it's true that I'd rather have a Springbatt - go figure


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## Jhanami (17 April 2013)

Cbmcts - that's the sort of argument I can perfectly live with - well put out and fair enough. Happy to agree to disagree


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## MurphysMinder (17 April 2013)

Sorry,yes I should have said responsible breeders.  There are plenty of people who breed a litter from their bitch once a year and as you say don't give a damn  about the pups once they have the money in their hands.  I have known many breeders in my breed (german shepherds) and I would say nearly all help with rehoming dogs they have bred if the need should arise.  They also all health test dogs before breeding and only use those who have good scores.

cbmcts - excellent post.


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## Dobiegirl (17 April 2013)

Cbmcbt hear hear.

Op 2 of my dogs are Dobermanns, both from rescue, so you could say I have the best of both worlds.


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## cbmcts (17 April 2013)

Jhanami said:



			Cbmcts - that's the sort of argument I can perfectly live with - well put out and fair enough. Happy to agree to disagree 

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I say all that but while I wouldn't seek out a xbred pup as you did I've only had one pedigree from a pup in the past 20 years. Despite the fact that he came from a health testing reputable breeder he was the one I lost to cancer at 8 years old. His vets bills for various ops hit five figures over his short life 

I've also had 3 terriers in that time - one an ex breeding bitch (probably why I'm so against puppy farming as she was in a horrific state when I got her) who lived to 21, another bitch who I took from the same yard at 5 weeks old as she was fading who died when she was 13 and my current dog who I got as an 8 year old rescue. The terriers were/are all JRT types who are probably the nearest thing to an old fashioned Heinz 57 type that you can find these days. They were/are all disgustingly healthy dogs - the oldie once she put on her desperately needed weight and stopped having a litter every few months barely made a trip to the vets until her late teens, the other girl had problems with her teeth at about 10 but that was sorted by removing nearly all of them! Current dog, now 10 will probably need a dental soon but acts like a puppy half the time. 

My point is that buying pups, no matter how cute from a breeder that doesn't at least try and minimise the risk of ill health is opening yourself up to heartbreak - sometimes you can try and and do everything right and it still doesn't work out (as in my case) but I couldn't find it in myself to go looking for it IYSWIM. I love 'my' breed (Rottweilers) and would have another in a heartbeat despite knowing of all the problems they are prone to but will always try and find a breeder that is doing their best by the breed. Also, I believe that we should spend our money supporting the people who are doing the right thing by their dogs even though they could make a far bigger profit by not bothering. 

So I'm not anti crossbreed or rescue or even anti breeding - my mutt rescues have been very healthy, happy dogs but I don't feel I could support breeders, pedigree or otherwise who are irresponsible in any way...


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## NeverSayNever (17 April 2013)

Good God, something that wants to but can't   Whatever next


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## mrh1970 (17 April 2013)

MurphysMinder said:



			I'm with CC, anyone who breeds dogs as a full time job is doing it for the wrong reasons.
mrh, just out of interest, why does your dog with no health issues have to see a vet once a month.

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My mistake - he saw the vet once a month as a pup; it's now every three months as part of a flat monthly fee deal (regular checkups, insurance against ops and a discount on food).

Concerns about puppy farming are entirely reasonable, there are plenty of them out there just as there are pedigree breeders who'll happily breed in dogs with overly small skulls or narrow pelvises based on whatever they're trying to win (and far more again who'll crop the ears or tails of non-working dogs for aesthetic reasons, which is a personal bugbear of mine). But most pedigree breeders don't and I did my homework to make sure I wasn't buying a cross breed from someone who didn't know what they were doing. What WILL be interesting, however, is when the batts start hitting 10 or thereabouts - I'm not sure we've actually seen any of them go yet, so we'll have to wait to see whether they start hitting Bassett-type issues as they get older.


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## Calcyle (18 April 2013)

galaxy said:



			- cross breeds are not healthier than reponsibly bred pure bred pups from health tested parents.
		
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Whilst I do agree with you there - 



galaxy said:



			"hybrid vigour" is a total myth.
		
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 - well, no, it's not, just generally a grossly misunderstood and misattributed term.


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## Teaselmeg (18 April 2013)

Whilst I am sure your dogs are lovely, I cannot see the benefit of crossing these two breeds. These people are breeding two high drive types, with no mention of the relevent health tests on either parent and charging an unbelievable amount of money for a crossbred puppy,  because it has a silly name.


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## Venevidivici (18 April 2013)

Interesting thread
All I have to add that others haven't is,Jhanami,if you are still in touch and on close terms with the breeder as you say,you urge them to properly record, (on their website and in any literature), the results of the breed appropriate health tests done (which of course,as 'responsible' breeders,they have had carried out by a vet in addition to ordinary health checks) on the dams and sires of ALL their breeding dogs.

Then there'd be little confusing them with the less responsible 'faddy' breeders,doing it for the cash generated by the uneducated,'cutesie' market....


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## zippo (18 April 2013)

Dame Shirley Bassette,[please note that she has now been elevated,if not to the peerage],after consultation with her humans,thinks they are rather special and would be happy to share her basket,in front of the AGA,with tricolour puppy.Bearing in mind,that in no way did she meet her supposed lineage and it was very interesting to see what she grew into.


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## Crugeran Celt (18 April 2013)

Jhanami said:



			Crogeran - the reason why I paid that much is because I wanted that puppy - the fact that he should be cheaper on accounts of being a cross breed simply never occurred - and still doesn't  he was and is simply the best and worth every penny.  Wish I could show you - still haven't figured out how to post photographs though :/

Hey its your money and your choice, my sister has just bought an Akitamute and she is an absolutely fabulous natured and healthy dog so money well spent in her eyes as well. To be honest if you love the dog and have given it a good, happy home then good on you and its no one else's business. 

Click to expand...


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## CorvusCorax (18 April 2013)

Some really good points (and some bullets to the head!!!)

My comment about breeding to make money has already been covered, if your main motivator is money then the quality of the breed or type of dog takes second place IMO.
Health tests cost money and that will eat into profits.

The fact that no specific health tests/results have been mentioned yet still speaks volumes to me.
I would say that for any dog, pedigree or non pedigree. There is NO excuse not to health test, the information is out there. Say, at most, £300 on each parent: £600, still less than the price of one puppy.

Hell, I spent £300 on health tests for my young dog (hips, elbows, DNA) for my dog and I don't even intend to breed him - I just want to know he is sound before I send him over hurdles and A-frames, I wanted them on record and they will be helpful if I intend to show him or get a breed survey done on him.

He cost around £450 at 16 weeks from two world championship competitors and five gens of working titled and health tested dogs. I know the basics about every dog in his five gen pedigree if something ever does go wrong and I have his breeder's phone number and we are in regular contact.

Oh yes and he is also a healthy, much loved dog who never fails to make me smile, even when he is being a little sod. None of these things are mutually exclusive!!


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## TarrSteps (18 April 2013)

Sorry, I'm still stuck at 'Akitamute'. . .


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## GeeGeeboy (18 April 2013)

Tarrsteps-I just had a phone call from a 'Akitamute' owner today( am a dog groomer) was quite flabbergasted by it!!!


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## Dobiegirl (18 April 2013)

http://manorroyspringbatts.webs.com/apps/guestbook/


Read the comment from Pam who is the breeder I believe and her reasoning as to why they are not health tested.

Its page 2.


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## That old chestnut (18 April 2013)

I have to agree that these 'designer' crosses are ridiculous and I can't believe anyone would pay so much money for one when there are so many dogs in rescue centres.  I also cannot understand why they are being bred deliberately. 
I had a genuine Heniz 57 who was put to sleep 4 years ago at the age of 18. She was healthy most of her life apart from a few dental problem.  I wouldn't even like to guess what breeds she was made from.  I also owned a miniature schnauzer cross Lhasa apso who again was healthy until he developed a liver tumor and was put to sleep at 14 two years ago.  He was the result of an accidental mating between 2 neighbours' dogs. I am sure he would be given a fancy name if he were bred now.   I now own a Leonberger who we bought after lots of careful research (both into the breed and the breeder). We did pay a substantial amount of money for her, but responsible breeding does cost a lot.  We have no intention of breeding from her and she is due to be spayed soon.  We did have a brief scare last year when we discovered our neighbours entire rough collie had been squeezing through a gap in the hedge.    A collieberger perhaps!


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## s4sugar (18 April 2013)

Dobiegirl said:



http://manorroyspringbatts.webs.com/apps/guestbook/


Read the comment from Pam who is the breeder I believe and her reasoning as to why they are not health tested.

Its page 2.
		
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This one?;-
We could in the distant future if we wished to, register them as a new breed with the KC as we have the pedigrees going back over many generations, but why would we wish to do that when people would then be producing dogs from a small gene pool causing health problems as happens with many of the pedigree breeds. You are right, health tests are not as necessary with so called "MUTTS" because again, THEY DO NOT HAVE THE INBRED BREED RELATED PROBLEMS that pedigrees have. 
I am not commenting any further on this subject as this is a happy friendly website for people that like " Mutts" and if you dont like what we are doing, stop looking at the website !! Any further comments will be removed. Springbatt owners make their own minds up about whether to buy a dog , no-one forces them."

Spoken like a true puppy farmer! What a load of tosh and shows true disregard for the pups they produce. Purely in it for the money.


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## NeverSayNever (18 April 2013)

s4sugar said:



			Spoken like a true puppy farmer! What a load of tosh and shows true disregard for the pups they produce. Purely in it for the money.
		
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this ^^  The whole thing actually makes me quite angry


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## s4sugar (18 April 2013)

Did you see the post there from someone who had just purchased an eight week old mongrel and could someone tell them about this "breed"?

They should have been told all about this cross before buying one. But they believed the puppy farmer.

To the poster above - why would a search for a dog needing < 5 miles a day bring up a cross between two breeds each of which is capable of 20 miles plus per day?


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## CorvusCorax (18 April 2013)

Why are people on this thread saying that the breeding stock are health tested, when the breeder themselves has admitted that they are not?

That says it all for me. There is only one reason why people don't health test breeding stock in this day and age.

But if you want to pay that amount of money for an unknown quantity healthwise, when health tests costs a fraction of the puppy price, fill your boots


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## galaxy (18 April 2013)

CaveCanem said:



			Why are people on this thread saying that the breeding stock are health tested, when the breeder themselves has admitted that they are not?

That says it all for me. There is only one reason why people don't health test breeding stock in this day and age.

But if you want to pay that amount of money for an unknown quantity healthwise, when health tests costs a fraction of the puppy price, fill your boots 

Click to expand...

Well I asked twice (as I'm sure at least one other did) and was ignored!  They have been given the line that because they are cross breeds they are healthy and they have believed it.


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## Venevidivici (18 April 2013)

I think the quote given by s4sugar from the website is,quite frankly,indefensible 
They have their eye firmly on the £££ prize and not on the puppies,whatever they say.


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## GeeGeeboy (18 April 2013)

Oh dear. This gets worse! How are people taken in by these 'breeders' ?!


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## Jhanami (18 April 2013)

Wow, well done S4Sugar - once again inflamed a discussion that was perfectly civilised whilst you were absent...

(Btw. The owner of the 8 week old who wanted to know about the breed didnt get his dog from there, which is why he was looking for information)

I wonder if you guys actually know what you are doing to someone when you accuse them of running a puppy farm based on zero evidence other than a quick look at a website and an overdose of arrogance.

But it's easy to send personal attacks and threatening messages via the internet, isn't it - hiding behind a facade of righteousness.

If the wellbeing of those puppies is so questionable, why don't you go and have a look for yourself?

You can be against breeding mutts.
And you for sure should be against puppy farms.

But you don't have the right to slander random people in your quest to show off what a well-informed 'savvy' dog person you are, without any actual knowledge.
I know the breeder, you don't. I own the dog, you don't. I had my dog checked, you haven't. So how come you are 3 days older than god regarding my choice of dog which is frankly none of your business?

I am actually feeling ashamed, that my harmless original post, wanting to share what a wonderful dog I have and respond to the slightly humorous 'what the heck is a springbatt' querie has somehow led to some of you thinking they have the right to bombard a person they know nothing about with anonymous email insults and threats and - how lovely - threaten their dogs.

Really impressed. True animal lovers, through and through.


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## Toffee44 (18 April 2013)

But there is evidence.

More than three breeds of dogs being bred, no health testing and working at this full time.

There are people on here who do breed and for example murphys minder who spent a good year planning that litter and seeking that stud dog.

Many of us know what's in rescue right now, many of us are seeking to create stronger lines within breeds and personally I have every right to question someone churning out puppy's enough to make a living on.

Just because we use the word puppy farm doesn't automatically mean cages packed of pups and bitches having litter upon litter but does mean too many litters.

There is someone here where i live who breeds a litter of retriever x labs as they seem to make good family pets, started with one litter now has two bitches one litter yearly, to me back yard breeder no matter how well that dog is cared for that's 9 extra lives a year into a country brimming with unwanted pets!

I just can't agree with someone who breeds x breeds and asks £500 + for the animal with no health testing.

Sure your dog is lovely, I have two very healthy cross breeds, but I didn't pay £500 + for them and a fancy name.


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## s4sugar (18 April 2013)

GeeGeeboy said:



			Oh dear. This gets worse! How are people taken in by these 'breeders' ?!
		
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I think you have just been answered  

People refuse to believe that thay have been conned by clever marketing and the person who produced their dogs who I quoted above has, of course, only their best interests in mind despite, as quoted, having no such plan. 

Please, Jhanami, read what is written and not what you want to believe.

FWIW any chance of hybrid vigour would be removed as soon as the original crosses were bred from. Inbreeding doesn't cause inherited problems, it only increases the chance of recessive genes becoming obvious. These crooses cannot become a KC breed - the requirements are far from met and the seller knows this- it is just another smokescreen.

Do we know what we are doing? Hopefully we are stopping irresponsible breeding or at making people think before supporting a commercial breeder. Puppy farms are not all in barns in Wales as commercial breeders are often out in the open, as are Pet Shops selling puppies ( & people, stupidly, buy from pet shops too).

Puppies should be bred with an aim other than to sell. This may be to work, show or even as a one off for the next generation in that home but just turning out multiple litters purely for sale as pets is puppy farming. As for evidence - it is on their own website and in their own words.


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## CorvusCorax (18 April 2013)

I haven't called anybody anything actually or slandered anyone, I was asking about health tests and I wondered how they can charge that amount for a puppy without health tests on the parents. Like I say, it's your life, your money, fill your boots, if you're happy with your dog and happy that you paid that amount of money for him then it doesn't really matter what anyone else thinks.

I am an animal lover, I love my dog, I love my dog enough to pay for health tests to make sure he is healthy enough to do the work that I would like him to do without damaging him and I have a JOB to pay for carrying out those health tests.
If I need more cash I will take on more jobs and more work and I would go hungry before I would breed from him.

Loving animals and asking why people who say they love animals and call themselves breeders, can't even cough up for a health test, are not mutually exclusive!


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## MurphysMinder (18 April 2013)

Hmm, I was wondering why there had been only 54 comments in 6 years, but presume that is because negative comments have been removed.  Also I hope the breeder got in touch with the person who commented that their pup was "jumping on and off the sofa every 2 seconds", not a good thing for any pup and certainly not for one with the bassett shape.


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## Crugeran Celt (18 April 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			Sorry, I'm still stuck at 'Akitamute'. . . 

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That's what my sister calls her, an Akita cross malamute. Needless to say her name is Kita.


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## Crugeran Celt (18 April 2013)

Forgot to say she was from health checked parents, breeder owns both parents and showed vet certificates for both to my sister before she bought her. There are responsible breeders of cross breed dogs just as there are irresponsible breeders of pedigree dogs.


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## stargirl88 (18 April 2013)

Jhanami said:



			I wonder if you guys actually know what you are doing to someone when you accuse them of running a puppy farm based on zero evidence other than a quick look at a website and an overdose of arrogance.

But it's easy to send personal attacks and threatening messages via the internet, isn't it - hiding behind a facade of righteousness.

But you don't have the right to slander random people in your quest to show off what a well-informed 'savvy' dog person you are, without any actual knowledge.
I know the breeder, you don't. I own the dog, you don't. I had my dog checked, you haven't. So how come you are 3 days older than god regarding my choice of dog which is frankly none of your business?
		
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Firstly, I don't think anyone is hiding behind the tinterweb, I'm pretty sure everyone would say this to the breeders face 

You know the breeder - we don't comment - well, exactly! You're seeing this through the eyes of someone who loves the puppy they bought from someone who breeds x-breeds (for "a living", if someone is doing something 'for a living' they are doing it for profit, this has been covered!). It's great that you love your pup, but that doesn't make it OK.

The bottom line is that you exchanged alot of money for a puppy from people who possibly compromised the long-term health of these dogs to save some cash. I hope that your pup has a long, healthy life - along with all its other siblings, but I wish even moreso that these people would , for the love of god, just stop breeding.


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## stargirl88 (18 April 2013)

I see the site is 'under construction' now anyway. 

Akita-mute .............. someone was up for a challenge weren't they!!!


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## CAYLA (19 April 2013)




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## Cinnamontoast (19 April 2013)

So they're crossing a breed that ought to be tested for HD with a heavier breed? Hmm, caring! 

They are puppy farming, ok, not 20 litters a year, small scale but still using the dogs to make money. Not ethical, IMO. 

The excuses for not health testing are pathetic and to say they could be registered with the KC is pure fantasy. 

I'm sure the puppies, as all puppies, are delightful, but I see no point in this cross. 

Did anyone else notice the comment re discount on food from the vet? *Sits on hands*


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## Cinnamontoast (19 April 2013)

Trouble is, coming on here and defending such a breeder, who, whichever way you look at it, is not breeding ethically or to improve lines and is purely in it for money, is going to inflame people who do breed ethically and who research properly. It will also upset those who work in rescue and who are seeing increasing amounts of designer crosses being handed in. There are no guarantees when two breeds are crossed. I'm slightly amazed that there's no poodle crosses on the website with claims that ALL puppies are non shedding


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## jodie3 (19 April 2013)

My Dalmatian I rescued through Facebook was bred by these kennels.  

I have her pedigree and other paperwork but there is no mention of her being BAER tested and she is deaf.

Both my other two, from different breeders, have their test results.

Perhaps we should be glad they aren't breeding Daladors!!


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## MurphysMinder (19 April 2013)

I did notice about the discount on food CT, but decided to let it pass.  Some of these vet "payment plans" do seem very cheap, they have to make the money back somewhere.


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## Cedars (19 April 2013)

"But we thought that as they have shorter backs and smaller ears than a basset, and longer straighter legs this would actually cut down, if not eliminate the health problems associated with these parts of the body" 

Oh, that's alright then.


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## MurphysMinder (19 April 2013)

Just had a look at the labs on their website, 2 litters of pups, one 8 weeks old on 7th April, one ready (so presume 8 weeks) on 13th April, don't breed a lot eh!

They are a bit coy about pedigrees of their pups, but there are 2 stud dogs on there who according to the kc website have had no health tests.  It seems they also rehome their breeding stock when no longer wanted, to me that says the dogs are not part of their family but a commodity.


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## Toffee44 (19 April 2013)

Just what is needed more labs with HD and Should Displacia and we wonder why insurance for our pets cost a bomb!!


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## Dobiegirl (19 April 2013)

I did spot the food discount but like MM I let it go, I do feel sorry for the op who has been well and truely sucked in. Lets hope it has given them food for thought and they are open minded enough to read the evidence and come to the right conclusion.

I forgot to say the endorsements wont matter a jot because they are not a breed and cant be registered with the KC anyway, so if buyers of pups decided what a nice little earner whats to stop them.


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## CorvusCorax (19 April 2013)

Cedars said:



			"But we thought that as they have shorter backs and smaller ears than a basset, and longer straighter legs this would actually cut down, if not eliminate the health problems associated with these parts of the body" 

Oh, that's alright then.
		
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Wow. Now that's science.

Reminds me of what breeders of 'old fashioned, big boned, straight backed' GSDs often say.

'Big GSDs like the ones you remember from your childhood'
(They weren't bigger. You were smaller)
'Straight backed GSDs do not get hip dysplasia so we don't need to test for it'
(So how come Rottweilers, Labs and Golden Retrievers do?!)


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## CAYLA (19 April 2013)

jodie3 said:



			My Dalmatian I rescued through Facebook was bred by these kennels.  

I have her pedigree and other paperwork but there is no mention of her being BAER tested and she is deaf.

Both my other two, from different breeders, have their test results.

Perhaps we should be glad they aren't breeding Daladors!!
		
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Interesting (so a so called (fabulous) breeders dog ended up for REHOME on FACEBOOK and it's got none of the responsible health tests and its DEAF!!! how very responsible of that breeder.

Thank the lord you ended up with the dog, why is there no Dalmation chat page then where all the dalmations are kept an eye on and have a merry chat about the fantastic breeders and their constant and (back up) support from their money making ventures of the 4 legged kind

I just dumfounded people are so gullible, I would expect a child to want such a dog and call it by such a ridiculous name and chuckle as they say it (but adults)


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## s4sugar (19 April 2013)

They don't seem to have any hips scores for the Labs or Dalmatians but are advertising a very poorly constructed, mismarked, dog as BAER tested which I suppose is a start. His main claim to fame is siring larger litters!
Looks like the Setter lab crosses were not a commercial success and they sold off their GSD bitches in 2009.
It appears whenever "Springbatt" is mentioned on a forum you get people claiming they are the best "breed" (sic) ever and posters are slanderous or threatening - even when they clearly are not. The subject of ruining someones livelihood usually rears it's head too.
I suppose it is human nature to go defensive when you realise you've been a dingbat and supported a con but a lot of people on here spend a lot of time ( & often their own money) picking up the pieces of the mess irresponsible breeders make.

BTW how about this wonderful mutt?


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## Cinnamontoast (19 April 2013)

Oh Lordy, what's wrong with its front legs?   Is this one of the spring batts and are they breeding from it with that chronic conformation fault?


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## s4sugar (19 April 2013)

Its a picture of a Basset x springer I was sent some time ago by someone on the waiting list for an active (to go jogging with) Basset hound.
We had to say that those limbs would probably make this poor dog unsuitable for him and could forsee the potential of lots of pain in the future. Fortunately a racing model Basset came in soon after and the match was perfect.


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## Kaylum (19 April 2013)

If your paying a lot of money for a dog get it vetted by your own vet before you pay for it.  You wouldn't buy a horse without a basic check. Queen Anne legs are for tables not for dogs.


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## Inthemud (21 April 2013)

If your livelihood is breeding cattle, you are a cattle farmer.

If your livelihood is breeding puppies.......

Adding fluffy bits, does not stop puppy farming unhealth-tested pups,from being anything but negligent and wrong.

When will the general public stop thinking that mixing 2 breeds cancels out breed specific health problems??


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## Cinnamontoast (21 April 2013)

Inthemud said:



			If your livelihood is breeding cattle, you are a cattle farmer.

If your livelihood is breeding puppies.......

Adding fluffy bits, does not stop puppy farming unhealth-tested pups,from being anything but negligent and wrong.

When will the general public stop thinking that mixing 2 breeds cancels out breed specific health problems??
		
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*Like*


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## MurphysMinder (22 April 2013)

Kaylum said:



			If your paying a lot of money for a dog get it vetted by your own vet before you pay for it.  You wouldn't buy a horse without a basic check. Queen Anne legs are for tables not for dogs.
		
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Whilst this probably isn't that practical (all bar one of Evie's pups went over an hour away from here, one to Spain!),  responsible breeders will have had puppies checked by their own vet and will give new owners a contact number, and also most state in their Puppy Sales Contract that the new owner should take the pup to their own vet within a certain number of days to be checked.

Inthemud, great post.


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## eatmyshorts (22 April 2013)

*shakes head in disbelief *

The really sad thing about this new craze is at the end of the day, it's the dogs who suffer - those accidental crosses who stay in kennels because a naive doglover is ill informed and duped into paying a silly price for a puppy who should never have deliberately bred, and these designer dogs themselves who may end up with health problems because testing would have eaten into the profit of the breeder (some of their reasons for not doing so are, quite simply, disillusional - it's so often obvious that the emphasis is on money to be made, despite the excuses).

Unfortunately, not only are the dogs being bred here, adding to our existing problem, but litters of pups are being imported from abroad by folk jumping on the bandwagon to make a fast buck, potentially filling up our rehoming centres even more. 

With the crazy choice of breeds being crossed (GSD x Malamutes seems to be another popular one, I also heard of another involving two hugely powerful breeds, but can't remember which - something like mastif cross rottie!) it probably won't be long before some of these sweet healthy crossbreeds will be labelled dangerous designer dogs.


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## Goldenstar (22 April 2013)

fallenangel123 said:



			There is a puppy farm near us that breeds them, un registered 'pedigrees' and a wide selection of whateverpoos as well. Currently on preloved they have about £14000 worth of puppies advertised!
  Wonder if the taxman knows?
		
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You can always let him know , the taxman I mean.


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## Kaylum (23 April 2013)

MurphysMinder said:



			Whilst this probably isn't that practical (all bar one of Evie's pups went over an hour away from here, one to Spain!),  responsible breeders will have had puppies checked by their own vet and will give new owners a contact number, and also most state in their Puppy Sales Contract that the new owner should take the pup to their own vet within a certain number of days to be checked.

Inthemud, great post.

Click to expand...

So they say many say they have had their injections, again I will point out many don't.  What paper work is there for vet checking?  None and injection labels are easy faked. 

What buyers don't understand about health tests etc is that these are so important for the dogs well being and their insurance and pocket.


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## MurphysMinder (23 April 2013)

I wouldn't say a vacc card and batch numbers are that easy to fake, but it should be simple to check, the card should be stamped with vets name so potential new owner can phone and check.  With health tests people should ask to see actual certificates , it is also possible to go on KC site and check.
I am not sure how to get buyers to understand how to buy healthy puppies, it seems people see cute pups and common sense goes out of the window


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## Crugeran Celt (23 April 2013)

I am not very well up on dog breeding but you have got me worried, I bought my purebred springer from a very reputable breeder of working gun dogs who has a litter usually every other year. This was confirmed by someone I know who had a pup from the same litter as mine who knows the breeder well. Unfortunately whilst his breeding bitch was in season his retired working dog that was 16 years old noticed. Hence a litter that was not planned and as the pups were born 3 days under the twelve months since last litter they could not be registered? I have all the vet check certificates for my springer and the legal docking certificate all signed dated and stamped by a local vet.  So am I to assume from this post that the puppy farms have many breeding bitches or are they breeding more than one litter a year and if that is the case how are they able to register them if the breeder I had my dog from cannot?


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## s4sugar (23 April 2013)

Many puppy farms don't register their puppies or only register a few of them. Crossbreeds cannot be registered ( there is an activity register at the KC but that is only an identification thing and like a horse having a generic, no breed, passport).

There are some scam registries too - these are just to con people when all they say is that someone has been dishonest - usually breeding from dogs with KC endorsement "progeny not eligible for registration" but also from unknown stock.

Your example, Crugerand Celt, is one of the few genuine reasons for pups not being registered and a lot of us campaigned for a 330 days between litters cutoff ( To prevent every six month heat matings) to allow for annual heat breeds eg Basenji & Tibetan ridgebacks which may whelp a few days early but the RSPCA shouted loudly for a year. I suppose 11 months was too difficult to work out?


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## Crugeran Celt (23 April 2013)

Thankyou s4sugar that has cleared it up for me. I would hate to have bought a dog from a careless breeder. I did my homework at the time and as I say I knew someone who knew the breeder well but you just never know. I wasn't aware of the twelve month rule on registering, until I bought mine but does it just make the good breeders stick to what they would be doing anyway and the bad ones just registering one litter a year and selling another litter off cheaper unregistered?


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## Cinnamontoast (23 April 2013)

Unfortunately, this ^^ is bound to happen. It doesn't stop a breeder overbreeding, they just can't register the litter. Alternatively, they could have two or more bitches and lie about who had which litter. There was a post on here recently where the OP's friend had bought a springer pup and it was out of a different bitch to what she'd been told. It makes a bit of a nonsense of the health testing scheme when there's a deliberate error like that.

People need to know the difference between checks and tests when it comes to health. Hip/elbow/eye tests should be available to see on the KC site.


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## MurphysMinder (23 April 2013)

Cy hips eye tests etc are available. Go to kc health test finder and put in dogs registered name, all tests results should come up!


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## MurphysMinder (23 April 2013)

Sorry should have said ct. Also since 2010 (I think) all dogs have to be identified by tattoo or chip and this info is put on paper work, so it is getting easier to check. Just have to get the message out to puppy buyers now.


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## Crugeran Celt (23 April 2013)

MurphysMinder said:



			Cy hips eye tests etc are available. Go to kc health test finder and put in dogs registered name, all tests results should come up!
		
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Well that's all very well but what about the likes of my pup that could not be registered? I know she had the health checks because I have the paperwork signed and stamped by the vet and also she was chipped and docked and I have the certificates for that too. Perhaps the responsibility has to lie with the buyer. If people didn't buy pups from irresponsible breeders there would be no point in them breeding.


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## Dizzle (23 April 2013)

Crugeran Celt said:



			Perhaps the responsibility has to lie with the buyer. If people didn't buy pups from irresponsible breeders there would be no point in them breeding.
		
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Well said


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## ester (23 April 2013)

I think MM meant test results for the parents if they are kc reg


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## Crugeran Celt (23 April 2013)

ester said:



			I think MM meant test results for the parents if they are kc reg
		
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Oh I see what you mean. Thankyou.


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## MurphysMinder (23 April 2013)

Yep that's what I meant, most tests aren't done till dog is 12 months


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## MurphysMinder (23 April 2013)

If you put a dogs name into KC health tests page

http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/services/public/mateselect/test/Default.aspx


you should come up with something like this,  different health tests depending on the breed.

I have deleted the KC reg name, which would appear at the top.

German Shepherd Dog
The following test results have been received by the Kennel Club.

Select a scheme name for more information on that scheme and what the result value means.

Test/Scheme	 Result	 Date	 Age
BVA/KC Elbow Dysplasia Scheme	0	23/07/2009	1 year, 1 month
BVA/KC Hip Dysplasia Scheme	3/4 = 7	08/07/2009	1 year, 1 month


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## Cinnamontoast (23 April 2013)

Crugeran Celt said:



			Well that's all very well but what about the likes of my pup that could not be registered? I know she had the health checks because I have the paperwork signed and stamped by the vet
		
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But this is what I meant: a breeder might say that the dog or the parents have been health checked but as MM says, it's the _tests_ on the parents that are important. If you know the dam and sire's KC names, any tests they had done should be on the KC website. 

I agree, the responsibility must lie with the buyer. If a buyer goes out, as I did, and buys puppies from a random litter and something goes wrong, it's tough. _Some_ breeders are in it purely for the money, others are super careful to cover all bases in terms of breeding to improve lines/conformation and for temperament.


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