# Advice needed please -  Growling 5mth golden retriever puppy?



## Zebe (10 February 2014)

Hi there, 

Ok, I have a 5mth old golden retriever puppy who is generally well behaved.  But he is a male and he was top dog in the puppy litter so think this may be why he is a trying to be a little dominant. 

He will growl when i raise my voice which i only do if he has done something he really shouldn't have, i am normally calm soft voiced with him but if he's been extra bold i will send him to his bed and tell him off with a raised firm voice, he will run and jump on his bed and growls at me as im telling him off. I tell him NO, he only stops growling once my voice goes back to normal. He doesn't seem to like me raising my voice. 

I'm just worried i may be doing something to make him worse. I have had a male retriever before for 11 years so I'm not a beginner but don't remember him growling at me for telling him off. I also have 2 very well behaved lab bitches who he is very fond of and has great fun playing with. So no problem there, it's just the growling that is bothering me. 

Someone said i should grab him by the scruff of his neck, shake him & growl at him because thats what his mother would do! Sounds extreme, I would be worried to do anything to make him worse. I'd be very grateful if someone has some knowledge to help me??


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## CorvusCorax (10 February 2014)

Er, don't do that. 

It sounds like he is resource guarding. 

From your post alone, you are going and taking stuff off him - he doesn't understand why, and you are not giving him any incentive to give up the valued item - then shouting at him/telling him off, then when he growls, you stop shouting at him and he goes off to 'his bed' still growling.

He is quite young to be displaying this behaviour. I would get a trainer or behaviourist out who is skilled in solving resource guarding. You'll need to balance building a relationship with the dog (at the moment, it is inbalanced - he is probably seeing you as the person who comes and takes his stuff and shouts at him) and also sending the message that the behaviour is not tolerable (I growl, you go away and leave me alone).

I'm not a fluffy bunny, but doing what is suggested in your final par and not knowing what you are doing, will just add further conflict to the situation and could land you in A&E and permanently damage the relationship between you and the dog.


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## Zebe (10 February 2014)

Wow, gosh thats worried me! I had never heard of resource guarding. Thanks, I will see if i can find a trainer, I doubt if there are too many around where I live as i am very rural but sounds like i need a pro. Really don't want to damage my relationship with him that would be devastating! 

Just to confirm, i am not taking anything off him, he is not growling if  eg. i take toys or chews or food away. He has a toy box full of toys he goes and takes whatever he likes etc. I will only get firm/raise voice with things he shouldn't do ie.  tipping the huge dogs water bowl over in the kitchen and splashing around in it, chews on the skirting boards, ripping the sofa etc. He doesn't do this often. I distract him with what he can chew or play with and that does work well. He will go to his bed if i say to in calm and soft voice but if i raise my voice, he will run to his bed and growl, no teeth yet but that's why i want help so it doesn't get to that stage. 

I should be able to get cross with a firm voice without this growling shouldn't I? or should I Not raise my voice?

thanks



CaveCanem said:



			Er, don't do that. 

It sounds like he is resource guarding. 

From your post alone, you are going and taking stuff off him - he doesn't understand why, and you are not giving him any incentive to give up the valued item - then shouting at him/telling him off, then when he growls, you stop shouting at him and he goes off to 'his bed' still growling.

He is quite young to be displaying this behaviour. I would get a trainer or behaviourist out who is skilled in solving resource guarding. You'll need to balance building a relationship with the dog (at the moment, it is inbalanced - he is probably seeing you as the person who comes and takes his stuff and shouts at him) and also sending the message that the behaviour is not tolerable (I growl, you go away and leave me alone).

I'm not a fluffy bunny, but doing what is suggested in your final par and not knowing what you are doing, will just add further conflict to the situation and could land you in A&E and permanently damage the relationship between you and the dog.
		
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## CorvusCorax (10 February 2014)

Zebe said:



			Wow, gosh thats worried me! I had never heard of resource guarding. Thanks, I will see if i can find a trainer, I doubt if there are too many around where I live as i am very rural but sounds like i need a pro. Really don't want to damage my relationship with him that would be devastating! 

Just to confirm, i am not taking anything off him, he is not growling if  eg. i take toys or chews or food away. He has a toy box full of toys he goes and takes whatever he likes etc. I will only get firm/raise voice with things he shouldn't do ie.  tipping the huge dogs water bowl over in the kitchen and splashing around in it, chews on the skirting boards, ripping the sofa etc. He doesn't do this often. I distract him with what he can chew or play with and that does work well. He will go to his bed if i say to in calm and soft voice but if i raise my voice, he will run to his bed and growl, no teeth yet but that's why i want help so it doesn't get to that stage. 

I should be able to get cross with a firm voice without this growling shouldn't I? or should I Not raise my voice?

thanks
		
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Don't panic, it's easy enough to sort with the right mindset and to be honest the likelihood is that he is probably scared and confused. Ideally, yes, our dogs should never growl at us but sometimes these things happen and we have to deal with them. I was more trying to discourage you from scruffing him as that can go one way or another.

I can't see you or your dog or what you are doing or what your dog is doing so I cannot tell you how to speak to him - but do bear the following in mind: 

If he has a toybox and he goes and takes whatever he likes, whenever he likes, how does he then know that he cannot pick up other things that he is not supposed to have?

Get a weighted, or ceramic bowl or a fixed bowl or something he cannot tip, then this will minimise the water problem. He is a Golden Retriever. They like water and playing in water. It's in his DNA.
Mine used to tip and chase metal bowls around. I now use bowls with hooks. Problem solved!

He is a Golden Retriever. He is bred to hold things in his mouth. He is a puppy, they like to chew things. Catch him BEFORE he gets to the skirting board or the sofa - in his head, he is doing a Fun Thing and then you are coming along and giving him a hard time. Mine would also eviscerate the sofa if I let him - if I can't watch/supervise him, he's in a crate or outside in a kennel.

There are also a lot of online resources on the issue that should help put your mind at rest.


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## Zebe (10 February 2014)

Thanks CC, I will have a read on the internet, he is a super boy, i just want to make sure i don't go down the wrong track with him. Him being the top of litter etc has made him very confident but he is also very bright so its important for me to do the right thing quickly. I will consider all the pointers you have made. New water bowl tomorrow  I was never going to hold scruff of neck, its not in me, i've never needed or wanted to be physical with any of my animals. I don't believe in it, thats why i came for help  thanks again



CaveCanem said:



			Don't panic, it's easy enough to sort with the right mindset and to be honest the likelihood is that he is probably scared and confused. Ideally, yes, our dogs should never growl at us but sometimes these things happen and we have to deal with them. I was more trying to discourage you from scruffing him as that can go one way or another.

I can't see you or your dog or what you are doing or what your dog is doing so I cannot tell you how to speak to him - but do bear the following in mind: 

If he has a toybox and he goes and takes whatever he likes, whenever he likes, how does he then know that he cannot pick up other things that he is not supposed to have?

Get a weighted, or ceramic bowl or a fixed bowl or something he cannot tip, then this will minimise the water problem. He is a Golden Retriever. They like water and playing in water. It's in his DNA.
Mine used to tip and chase metal bowls around. I now use bowls with hooks. Problem solved!

He is a Golden Retriever. He is bred to hold things in his mouth. He is a puppy, they like to chew things. Catch him BEFORE he gets to the skirting board or the sofa - in his head, he is doing a Fun Thing and then you are coming along and giving him a hard time. Mine would also eviscerate the sofa if I let him - if I can't watch/supervise him, he's in a crate or outside in a kennel.

There are also a lot of online resources on the issue that should help put your mind at rest.
		
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## Alec Swan (10 February 2014)

Zebe said:



			....... He has a toy box full of toys he goes and takes whatever he likes etc. I will only get firm/raise voice with things he shouldn't do ie.  tipping the huge dogs water bowl over in the kitchen and splashing around in it, chews on the skirting boards, ripping the sofa etc. He doesn't do this often. I distract him with what he can chew or play with and that does work well. He will go to his bed if i say to in calm and soft voice but if i raise my voice, he will run to his bed and growl, no teeth yet but that's why i want help so it doesn't get to that stage. 

.......
		
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I'd suggest that your puppy is becoming very confused with a freedom of choice,  to which he is unable to attach any understanding (and I'm sorry,  but neither can I),  and an equally confusing discipline level which is encouraging him to put you,  firmly in your place. 

I would strongly suggest,  Zebe,  that you are heading for serious problems,  and as C_C has suggested,  I'd suggest that you get someone in who can advise you how to restore a degree of order,  and before you tip your puppy over the edge,  and before you reach the point of no return.  Your treatment of your puppy cannot be realistically dealt with on a forum.  You need someone with experience to advise you how to make a fresh start,  and that needs to be someone who can evaluate your dealings with the animal.

Harsh words,  perhaps,  and I'm sorry,  but I suspect that the fault does not lie with your puppy.

Alec.


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## Dry Rot (11 February 2014)

Both the previous posters have more patience than I do!

I simply do what dogs do. The difficult part is gauging the strength of the reaction needed to counter the behaviour. But in any event, it is imperative to make friends again quickly after social order has been re-established. That's what dogs do!

Does one really need to call in the animal behaviourists to explain common sense?


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## CorvusCorax (11 February 2014)

Without blowing smoke up yer jacksie, Dry Rot, you probably have a lot more age and experience than the OP 

If the OP had the confidence/competence to do what you are suggesting (and not everyone does), she would have done it already, and as you know, if you are not entirely sure of what you are doing in this situation, if there is any ambiguity, you can make things a whole lot worse. That's why she needs a bit of outside help, and indeed, why she is asking in the first place.


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## Alec Swan (11 February 2014)

CaveCanem said:



			.......

If the OP had the confidence/competence to do what you are suggesting (and not everyone does), she would have done it already, and as you know, if you are not entirely sure of what you are doing in this situation, if there is any ambiguity, you can make things a whole lot worse. That's why she needs a bit of outside help, and indeed, why she is asking in the first place.
		
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D_R,  what you and I,  and quite possibly C_C may do,  instinctively,  the OP (and without being intentionally offensive),  is unable to do,  so I'd suggest that C_C's suggestion that they have someone spend time with them and assist them to restructure their relationship,  makes for perfect sense,  and before this worryingly young puppy actually carries out its threat,  and makes contact.

Just as you,  there are those of us who don't actually give much thought to what we do with puppies,  as it's an inbuilt and natural thing for us.  Not everyone is so fortunate.

Alec.


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## Dobiegirl (11 February 2014)

Golden retrievers are renowned for their kind temperament, worryingly there has been instances of them becoming aggressive. This has been found in known lines suggesting heredity, it might be worth trying to get in contact with the owners of your dogs siblings to see if they are having similar problems.

Whatever the results you do need the help of a good behaviourist, contact your vet and see if they can recommend someone.


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## Zebe (11 February 2014)

Alec, harsh yes  But honesty is always best! Dober thanks, I will mention this to the breeder, I did research before I went this particular breeder for temperament, soundness etc. but will be interesting to see if any of the other pups owners have contacted her. ( his sire is winning everything in ire atm so wouldn't be good if that was the case, i think its me tho!) Dry Rot, nope, I don't have the confidence, I have never used this method myself so I think to try this now and without professional help I be slightly worried. CC Thanks.

I probably should have explained a bit more, maybe I do sound a bit green when I read back. I don't for one minute think the blame lies with my puppy that's why I am trying to get advice to correct whatever it is I am doing that isn't working.

Unfortunately I do live in a rural area  in Ireland where there are hundreds of horse trainers but have never heard of a dog behaviourist around here.  So that's why I posted on the forum and why I will do as CC has suggested and check online resources. I called the vets, but not luck  I have also put word out that I am looking for a behaviourist. So fingers crossed, because the support would be very welcomed. The dog culture is different here, a lot of people think im mad having indoor dogs and having them as part of the family, even madder that I would pay someone to help with dog behaviour. 

Years ago when I had my first retriever I managed to find a very good and highly recommend dog behaviourist,  but I lived in London then and there were loads to choose from. I had a hell of a lot of work to do with my last boy, the destructiveness was one issue, I was working (I know that doesn't help) as a teacher so made sure he got walks in my lunch breaks and after work etc. I was also taught to leave lots of treats hidden in toys for him to keep him busy while out. But his real problem was after someone (not me) stupidly tied him to one of those flapping ice cream signs outside shops..It flapped!!  & he took off sign attached, he ran a long way with it and was completely traumatised he became very fearful of anything that flapped out on the streets, he'd shy away from lamp posts, post boxes,  etc.etc. it was dangerous because he was so strong, if he saw things he was scared of he would fly in the other direction at speed me attached to lead including into main roads. To cure him I would have to walk around London saying hello patting and talking to post boxes, lamp posts, green electricity boxes, shop canopys etc. It was a work in progress but we got there   And all without me being put in a straitjacket & locked up!

What I have tried to do is put into practice what I learned back then to bring up the dogs I have today and I do have 2 very well behaved bitches, one aged 2 the other 7 so I know I am doing some things right  The toys were something I was taught to leave out when I was going out as was told  destructiveness equals boredom Opps the other way round.  But from what Alec & CC have both have said it is possibly causing or not helping this issue. So I will look in to that. Btw I only leave him for a short time while I do the horse feeds & exercising. So they are all with me most of the day.

Positives: He is  being very responsive to training. He sits, lays down, waits, sits & waits for food until I say ok,  comes when I call. Toilet trained. Goes on his bed when I ask. When he  is playing & gets over boisterous with my other dogs I can manage to calm the situation quickly, they'll all go on their beds and have time out. 
It is ONLY if I raise my voice that he does a No teeth Growl. But I don't like it and not accepting it. I can see that from what you both have said that he is confused. I think as CC said he is scared.  I am quietly spoken so when I raise my voice it would be something he wouldn't always hear. The breeder of the litter he came from said she would have to take him off the milk bar to give the others a turn, he was the biggest and the  most dominant one in the litter and that is something new to me. I do need retraining. We will get there, I don't like failure so I will do whatever I need to do. I will let you know if I find a behaviourist and progress. If you haven't nodded off..Sorry that was a bit long!! thanks all.


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## Dry Rot (11 February 2014)

I believe there is a hereditary problem in spaniels of the show variety called "rage syndrome". I gather it is now present in some other breeds. The OP does sound intelligent and reasonably experienced. (Sorry if that sounds patronising, it's not meant to be!). So maybe the pup has a mental health problem? I am quite willing to be corrected. Growling in a puppy is usually a simple matter of the puppy challenging authority and all youngsters need to know the boundaries (humans included).

Golden retrievers have setter blood in them and are usually quite submissive. I've a ten week old working GSD pup here off a line renowned for hardness. If he growls at me he gets a tap on the nose with my finger accompanied by a verbal reprimand. He is already submissive but clearly loves me to bits in spite of the occasional viciously cruel finger beatings! It was the same with the six year old bitch -- and I have the scars to prove it. But she would be mortified now if she thought she'd hurt me and never ever growls -- except at the right people, if you know what I mean. I don't think a raised voice alone will mean much to a pup except as an unusual loud noise which, if kept inside, they will hear regularly enough on the radio or TV. The pup has to learnt that the raised voice may lead to something more physical&#8230;.just as a growl from an older dog might do. They are not clairvoyant.

I have trained working dogs in Ireland and there are many very excellent dog trainers who probably know a lot more than the average behaviourist. I can also recall a conversation with an Irish gamekeeper when it had to be explained to him what "a pet" is, he'd never heard of a dog just being kept just as a house pet and was truly puzzled!

Sorry, but if the pup doesn't respond to a reprimand accompanied by minimal physical chastisement, as above, the problem lies deeper. What would the OP do if her child did not respond to a raised voice? Call in a behaviourist? No, in the words of Monty Roberts, they have to learn that actions bring consequences. I believe it is as simple as that.


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## twiggy2 (11 February 2014)

Dobiegirl said:



			Golden retrievers are renowned for their kind temperament, worryingly there has been instances of them becoming aggressive. This has been found in known lines suggesting heredity, it might be worth trying to get in contact with the owners of your dogs siblings to see if they are having similar problems.

Whatever the results you do need the help of a good behaviourist, contact your vet and see if they can recommend someone.
		
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In my area many of the trainers I know call them 'Golden deceivers' for the reasons above


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## Zebe (11 February 2014)

DR, DG- do you know where i can read this study regarding aggression found in "known lines" I would like to find out whether there is hereditary problem with his particular line? I doubt the breeder would give me that information?!

DR - You train like many do here,  and that's not a criticism,  just a different way. Are your dogs Pets? I know a few gun dog owners/trainers/gamekeepers here, and I find their way very tough for me and yes their dogs aren't pets. Just like hounds aren't. I can see that you would need to be on the ball if you are training a GSD which im presuming means german shepherd? 

T2 - I think it's unfair trainers giving them that label, they have a lot to live up to being put at the top of the kind temperament list my us humans. Its a long way to fall if they slip up, and sad especially if it is the incompetence of the owner! 

...Hoping i prove i am not incompetent  Good news! Made some progress today and managed to find some help, well qualified dog trainer, she is in another county but willing to travel to me, gonna cost but she will spend 2 & half hours with me and my dogs. I also took my pup to one of the better vets today,  I explained the issue with his growling, my vets response was "Sure he'll be grand" 

I guess the trainer will work out if he has mental issues?? the vet laughed when i asked! 




Dry Rot said:



			I believe there is a hereditary problem in spaniels of the show variety called "rage syndrome". I gather it is now present in some other breeds. The OP does sound intelligent and reasonably experienced. (Sorry if that sounds patronising, it's not meant to be!). So maybe the pup has a mental health problem? I am quite willing to be corrected. Growling in a puppy is usually a simple matter of the puppy challenging authority and all youngsters need to know the boundaries (humans included).
		
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## Aru (11 February 2014)

hi op if your looking for a number/reference for decent trainers/behaviourists In Ireland it might be worth posting in the animals and pets section of boards . ie. ..its an irish site and a busy one with posters from all the provinces so someone might be able to give you advise on who to call..and more importantly who to avoid!


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## Dry Rot (11 February 2014)

Zebe said:



			(Snipped) DR, DG- do you know where i can read this study regarding aggression found in "known lines" I would like to find out whether there is hereditary problem with his particular line? I doubt the breeder would give me that information?!
		
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I suggest you Google "spaniels rage syndrome". I only read about this out of curiosity as someone mentioned the problem on a forum.




			DR - You train like many do here,  and that's not a criticism,  just a different way. Are your dogs Pets? I know a few gun dog owners/trainers/gamekeepers here, and I find their way very tough for me and yes their dogs aren't pets. Just like hounds aren't. I can see that you would need to be on the ball if you are training a GSD which im presuming means german shepherd?
		
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I have trained a few dogs over a long lifetime and have developed my own methods which generally follow natural canine behaviour. I suppose I have been lucky to have been able to observe dogs in large groups so I think I probably understand how they inter-relate better than most pet owners are able to do. I now have only two dogs, both German shepherds off working lines. Both live in the house and sleep on my bed though I have been putting them out in the kennel recently because the 10 week old insists on sleeping on my head and the old bitch pushes me out of bed! I am also feeding tripe which makes them fart&#8230;. They will probably be invited back in quite soon! Pets? I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I might incriminate myself!

Yes, I am tough, _when I need to be_. As are all dogs to each other when they need to re-establish the social order and teach others what is/is not permitted. I also think I have a great relationship with my dogs. It is quite an education watching a 10 week old playing with a six year old. They regularly change roles when play fighting but if the pup steps out of line he is very swiftly put in his place. That is the way dogs interact and the key to handling them, but a minute later they are friends again. Incidentally, both dogs are asleep in the living room with me but then I live alone and don't suffer the problems of others confusing them with conflicting signals. I don't usually have to repeat myself!


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## california dreaming (11 February 2014)

Op if you look up "A.P.D.T"  stands for the Association of Pet Dog Trainers.  They will have a trainer, I am sure that will be near you whether you are in Northern Ireland or Southern Ireland.  You can be sure that they will use the most appropriate and up to date training/behaviour method that will suit you and your dog.  They will abide by a code of conduct that states that they never use check/choke chain or electric shock collars to train a dog. Some trainers will come out to your house and help you on a one to one basis.  Hope that helps.


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## gunnergundog (12 February 2014)

OP......I would try looking up APBC (Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors) rather than APDT as a starting point unless you get a personal recommendation for someone on the APDT list.  This is because it is relatively easy to get on the APDT list - the people there are great at TRAINING pet dogs;  many are also adept at behavioural remodification and dealing with problems due to their years of experience but it is NOT a prerequisite for them to get on the list in the first place.

There appears to be only one listing in Northern Ireland and that is this lady:  http://www.dogclasses-behaviourni.com/
Could be worth a phone call to pick her brains on anyone in your area even if you choose not to visit her; as others have said there will be people near you who can help who don't have a single paper qualification but it is often difficult sorting the wheat from the chaff ....if you get my drift!

Good luck


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## Dry Rot (12 February 2014)

Please keep us up to date, I'd be interested to hear what the experts say.


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## Zebe (12 February 2014)

Thanks Aru, i didn't think of that, good idea! 
CD & GG, thats great will look into those! Yes it is a worry who you might get, there are plenty out there who just read a book and advertising themselves as experts! In all fields that is! Im right at the bottom of the republic, the one i found has a good few letters after her name, I've no idea what they mean so your links/info will be very helpful, thank you. 
DR - Great photo, GS are beautiful dogs! They sleep on ya bed and they are not pets hmmm ;-) I stopped the sleeping on bed when this new pup arrived, he doesn't know about the bed or the sofa yet! It's very possible he is behaving the way he is because he doesn't yet realise that i am pack leader and maybe even puts me below my 2 bitches. He'll learn! Yes i will of course keep you updated. Thanks again


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## Teaselmeg (12 February 2014)

Zebe, his growling at you will have nothing to do with pack/rank/dominance. Whether he is testing the boundaries or resource guarding you need an expert in behaviour to assess the situation. 

He may be scared, it may be dodgy parentage, you may have inadvertently encouraged the behaviour, whatever it is a fresh expert pair of eyes is the best way forward.  He does not understand when you tell him 'no' , he is a dog and does not understand English, he needs to be shown what you want him to do in a way he understands.  APBC is the way to go to find a good trainer. Anyone who wants you to be his 'pack leader' then run a mile !!  Lots of luck !!


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## Dry Rot (12 February 2014)

Zebe said:



			Thanks Aru, i didn't think of that, good idea! 
CD & GG, thats great will look into those! Yes it is a worry who you might get, there are plenty out there who just read a book and advertising themselves as experts! In all fields that is! Im right at the bottom of the republic, the one i found has a good few letters after her name, I've no idea what they mean so your links/info will be very helpful, thank you. 
DR - Great photo, GS are beautiful dogs! They sleep on ya bed and they are not pets hmmm ;-) I stopped the sleeping on bed when this new pup arrived, he doesn't know about the bed or the sofa yet! It's very possible he is behaving the way he is because he doesn't yet realise that i am pack leader and maybe even puts me below my 2 bitches. He'll learn! Yes i will of course keep you updated. Thanks again
		
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It is not so much about "pack leader" as cause-and-effect as I hope your behaviourist will explain to you!


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## Dry Rot (14 February 2014)

This evening, the pup in the above photo decided to guard his feed bowl in the kitchen from the 6yo bitch. She didn't want his food and didn't attempt to take it. But the pup's aggression was simply bad manners and the normally VERY patient bitch snapped. I don't think she touched the pup but he certainly got a shock and let out a great yelp and scream!

No comment to either dog from me and both were friends again within seconds. The pup was not hurt but he did learn a lesson with no permanent damage except to his pride. He'd get exactly the same from me if he tried something similar.

At the risk of becoming a bore I thought this worth mentioning as a perfect example of how Nature deals with this sort of situation. The young need to learn respect, whether they have two legs or four.


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## Alec Swan (15 February 2014)

D_R,  another illustrative post.  Dogs are better off learning from us,  and just as they learn from other dogs.

Alec.


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## Teaselmeg (15 February 2014)

Dry Rot said:



			This evening, the pup in the above photo decided to guard his feed bowl in the kitchen from the 6yo bitch. She didn't want his food and didn't attempt to take it. But the pup's aggression was simply bad manners and the normally VERY patient bitch snapped. I don't think she touched the pup but he certainly got a shock and let out a great yelp and scream!

No comment to either dog from me and both were friends again within seconds. The pup was not hurt but he did learn a lesson with no permanent damage except to his pride. He'd get exactly the same from me if he tried something similar.

At the risk of becoming a bore I thought this worth mentioning as a perfect example of how Nature deals with this sort of situation. The young need to learn respect, whether they have two legs or four.
		
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I agree with the dog telling off the puppy, however a human doing it to a dog is not the same, we are not dogs.  The puppy will not learn the same lesson if we do it, he will learn to guard his food even more and another nugget of trust in his new owner will be lost.


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## Dry Rot (15 February 2014)

Teaselmeg said:



			I agree with the dog telling off the puppy, however a human doing it to a dog is not the same, we are not dogs.  The puppy will not learn the same lesson if we do it, he will learn to guard his food even more and another nugget of trust in his new owner will be lost.
		
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I am always pleased to learn from others but have to say that has not been my experience.

Anyway, the pup believes I am just another dog and that is the main point! 

Since one of my neighbours and his wife came round the corner of my barn to find me on all fours barking at a litter of puppies, they probably believe I am too!


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## Saneta (15 February 2014)

Just to say I have experience of a young Goldie that did indeed have rage syndrome.  The eyes would change and the aggression would be instantaneous, so I wasn't going to post a response, as your pup is only aggressive when you raise your voice.  Guess it might be worth keeping in the back of your mind though...


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## ribbons (16 February 2014)

You talk a lot of sense dry rot.


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## Alec Swan (17 February 2014)

ribbons said:



			You talk a lot of sense dry rot.
		
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You're right,  he does.  

When we learn to communicate with a dog,  in a way that the animal is wired to understand,  rather than expecting a dog to elevate its thought levels to those of a human,  then we have a dog which is confident with,  and in its-self.  

It would be rare for any breakdown in communication to be the fault of the dog.  If we watch children with puppies,  then we often see that communication in its simplest and basic form.  If we watch puppies with older dogs,  so we generally see tolerance levels which surprise us,  but as the puppy grows,  generally the adult dog will remind the more boisterous puppy of its manners.  If we treat dogs as dogs,  and if we mimic the behaviour of a pack leader,  as best we can , then we establish a form of hierarchy and one which (to go back to the start),  the dog understands and is at peace with.  The problems,  all so often,  arise when we expect the dog to have the same thought processes as a human,  and it's a trap which we can all fall into!

Alec.


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## Dry Rot (17 February 2014)

Alec Swan said:



			You're right,  he does.  

When we learn to communicate with a dog,  in a way that the animal is wired to understand,  rather than expecting a dog to elevate its thought levels to those of a human,  then we have a dog which is confident with,  and in its-self.  

It would be rare for any breakdown in communication to be the fault of the dog.  If we watch children with puppies,  then we often see that communication in its simplest and basic form.  If we watch puppies with older dogs,  so we generally see tolerance levels which surprise us,  but as the puppy grows,  generally the adult dog will remind the more boisterous puppy of its manners.  If we treat dogs as dogs,  and if we mimic the behaviour of a pack leader,  as best we can , then we establish a form of hierarchy and one which (to go back to the start),  the dog understands and is at peace with.  The problems,  all so often,  arise when we expect the dog to have the same thought processes as a human,  and it's a trap which we can all fall into!

Alec.
		
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Alec, as you know, my experience has been with dogs living together in largish groups which is not how most dogs are kept so, yes, I suppose I do have some unique experience.

It always surprises me that dogs seem to be delighted when they are justly reprimanded. I say "justly" because I can't think of a quick and easy way of explaining it (do dogs have morals?), but perhaps it is because it establishes exactly where they are on the social order and that is reassuring even to us humans! How often do we hear the complaint, "I really don't know where I am with so-and-so". Well, dogs DO like to know and they are happier for it! But the rules need to be consistent, so perhaps "just" and "fair". Watching these two play is an education.

You (as in the reader of this, not Alec!) can do pretty much anything with a pup, provided you know and obey the rules. You can attempt to pick it up by a hind leg or a tail and the pup will accept it -- up to a point when it will let you know enough is enough with a yelp or a whimper. That's in the rules. Release must be instantaneous. These two know the rules and play is a constant to and fro as they swap roles. The pup in the above picture is clearly "in charge" (but it's a game, eh?). If you look, you'll see he is licking his nose. He is saying, "Yes, I know I seem fierce, but I'm not REALLY going to kill you!".

On the other hand, a brief "correction" (as the books like to call it!) that doesn't produce a few squeaks of faked agony is, to my mind, going to be ineffective. I haven't noticed dogs giving each other treats to discourage undesirable behaviour. If pup jumps up, I growl. He listens and backs off. He has heard the warning and he's a pup. If he doesn't.well We are friends again almost immediately.

Since chewing up £40 worth of cabling to some expensive video equipment, the pup here has been duly "corrected". He doesn't chew cabling any more. In fact, he is a bit nervous of going anywhere near it! (Mind you, he still chews everything else!). Cruelty? Well, the official definition of that is "causing unnecessary suffering". If "correcting" a pup that chews dangerous electric cable (or growls at me!) is cruel, I am guilty as charged. But I guarantee my pup will not only be happier than most other people's but it will do what it is told.

Sorry to lecture but I think this is an important subject and one which is often misunderstood as Alec has already pointed out.


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## Dobiegirl (17 February 2014)

The thing is we dont know why that dog is growling which only happens when the op raises her voice, the dog may actually be fearful of this and then to compound it by correcting it will only make matters worse. Im not a fluffy bunny if one of my dogs is taking the pee it is quickly corrected, this dosnt kill the dog or make it fearful of me but my dogs are very confident and can take their punishment like a man/dog.

Until any of us can see this dog in action with the Op its pure speculation, I hope the OP finds a good behaviourist and can nip this in the bud.


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## planete (17 February 2014)

"If pup jumps up, I growl".  I am really happy to read this!  I have never dared tell anybody I growl to correct dogs, especially when they are not yet trained and don't 'speak english', as most people around here would think I must be a cavewoman.  When the large one year old male lurcher who came to me as a foster yesterday tried to nick my lunch he got growled at and promptly lay down and averted his eyes from my food.


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## stormox (17 February 2014)

I have heard that golden retrievers can have the 'rage syndrome' that golden cocker spaniels can have. I looked into it a bit when I witnessed an incident that happened to a friend. she had a perfectly well behaved 2 yr old dark golden retriever. We were at an obedience show, she had completed her round, she put the dog in the back of her car he went to come out, she pushed him back, saying no, wait (commands he understood) and all of a sudden, with no warning growl, the dog sprang at her and bit her arm quite severely.


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## Teaselmeg (17 February 2014)

Dry Rot said:



			Since chewing up £40 worth of cabling to some expensive video equipment, the pup here has been duly "corrected". He doesn't chew cabling any more. In fact, he is a bit nervous of going anywhere near it! (Mind you, he still chews everything else!). Cruelty? Well, the official definition of that is "causing unnecessary suffering". If "correcting" a pup that chews dangerous electric cable (or growls at me!) is cruel, I am guilty as charged. But I guarantee my pup will not only be happier than most other people's but it will do what it is told. .
		
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What your pup has learned is that area is now a scary place, not that chewing the cable is wrong. 

Positive training methods are not permissive, my dogs do not walk all over me, they know their boundaries. They trust me, they do not behave because they are fearful of me. If you reward what you want, be it with treats/play or praise, the dog is more likely to repeat that behaviour and understand what you are asking it to do. 

 If my puppy was found chewing a cable, I would slap myself for being stupid and leaving my puppy near the cable and make sure from then on that either the puppy was kept away from the cable and given something safe to chew on or left in a crate if I could not supervise him. 

OP I hope you have found someone to give you some help.


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## Echo24 (18 February 2014)

Actually, some golden retrievers can be growly I'm afraid. And the age he is, hormones are kicking in and he is being challenging. Last thing you want to do is give in to the growling as this is how the behaviour escalates. I presume the growling is with ears back, teeth baring, low body posture and not the growling golden retrievers do when they prance around with a toy in their mouth. Without seeing exactly what he does I would suggest getting a behaviourist as well as I would hate to advise you without seeing the behaviour myself.

A friend is a very experienced dog behaviourist and the worst bite she has ever received was from a golden retriever as they can have a nasty side to them if not nipped in the bud.


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## EAST KENT (18 February 2014)

Many years ago now we boarded a Goldie bitch ,she was absolutely fine ..until one needed to remove empty food bowls..or remove slip leads after being out.As one does I found out she stayed just the once in virtually every local boarding kennel!


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## Zebe (26 February 2014)

Thanks for all the comments & sorry i have been so absent but 5 mins after posting my last post my power went due to a hurricane!! This crazy weather hit us hard, back to candles bottled water and woodburning stove! Only just got my phone network & internet back! So not too much progress on the dog front to report but have spoken to a few members of APBC, discussed my problems, they were very helpful but unfortunately not one anywhere near where i live. The best i have found is a member of Association of Pet Dog Trainers and uses the method of Behavioural Science/Dog Training!? Not sure what this means any ideas anyone? 

After totally freaking out doing my research on "rage syndrome" and the only treatment being euthanasia of your beautiful beloved animal i went cold with the fear of it. When speaking to the members of APBC explaining my fears, I was told not to get hung up on this because it is Rare and one was not convinced it was proven enough to exist. I can't focus on this, i don't believe my lad has this issue. I have to think positive 

Thank you all for taking time to comment, I haven't read all your posts properly so will re read.


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## Alec Swan (26 February 2014)

Zebe said:



			....... When speaking to the members of APBC explaining my fears, I was told not to get hung up on this because it is Rare and one was not convinced it was proven enough to exist. I can't focus on this, i don't believe my lad has this issue. I have to think positive 

......
		
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The condition where a dog loses control,  and becomes dangerous,  and reaches the stage of "Rage",  and amongst Cockers,  are,  AS YOU'VE BEEN ADVISED,  indeed rare.  It is rarer still amongst GRs,  trust me.  The stories with which others will regale you,  of the horrors,  are truly anecdotal,  and irrelevant.

Your puppy's problems are of your making,  and if you'll do as others have suggested,  and employ someone with experience,  someone who will offer you guidance,  then you and your dog will be just fine.  

At the risk of repetition,  the problem is of your making,  not your puppy's.  Seek practical advice,  or find a home for your dog before you end up euthanising a dog for no valid reason.

Am I being harsh?  That's for you to decide.

Alec.


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## Zebe (26 February 2014)

No Alec, i agree. The behaviorist i mentioned is calling over to me  & my training will begin. I hold my hands up, i have very likely caused a problem that i am determined to correct. 

Zebe



Alec Swan said:



			The condition where a dog loses control,  and becomes dangerous,  and reaches the stage of "Rage",  and amongst Cockers,  are,  AS YOU'VE BEEN ADVISED,  indeed rare.  It is rarer still amongst GRs,  trust me.  The stories with which others will regale you,  of the horrors,  are truly anecdotal,  and irrelevant.

Your puppy's problems are of your making,  and if you'll do as others have suggested,  and employ someone with experience,  someone who will offer you guidance,  then you and your dog will be just fine.  

At the risk of repetition,  the problem is of your making,  not your puppy's.  Seek practical advice,  or find a home for your dog before you end up euthanising a dog for no valid reason.

Am I being harsh?  That's for you to decide.

Alec.
		
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## Zebe (20 April 2014)

Hi, just for anyone interested in an update:
with lots of one to one training, walks and time i feel like i now feel confident to report that we have turned a corner. The distraction of my other dogs along with hormones he needed some quality time with me so we could work together and build a relationship. No more growls at all! He'll even roll on his back in submission which he wasn't doing before. I am delighted that we have worked through our issue, the trainer said he has no badness in him, he was just confused and that was charged up with hormones! Thanks for all support on this thread


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## Clodagh (20 April 2014)

Well done, that is great.


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## Fides (20 April 2014)

That's great news and well done for not giving up on him x


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## Dobiegirl (20 April 2014)

So glad you are getting the results and you contacted a trainer, you needed someone on the ground to help you and give you the confidence to implement their advice, onwards and upwards now.


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## Alec Swan (20 April 2014)

Very well done.  When we're on the inside of a situation,  then seeing the problems,  in a clear manner,  is never easy.  You've done really well,  and I'm impressed!

Another point for you;  It's strange what a bit of confidence does for us,  isn't it?! :wink3:

Alec.


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## Dry Rot (21 April 2014)

I'm glad it has all worked out for you.

My GSD pup started to growl at the feed bowl to warn off the 6yo female. He got a clip around the ear from me! They will now share a bowl with no grumbling. Reading back through the posts, I see one prophet of doom predicted severe psychological damage to the pup because he was punished for chewing electrical cable. Strangely, he continues to be a well balanced pup, doesn't chew any cables (at all!), and I can leave him alone in the room with lots of cables without putting him in a cage while I go into the kitchen to make a cup of tea.

I was looking for a suitable weapon to administer a quick and sharp reminder and picked up a riding crop in the tack room. Do all these kind and caring horse owners really use such things on an animal as sensitive as a horse? I found that all too severe for what I want which might be as harsh as a tap on the nose as a reminder.

Isn't it shocking what us older trainers do to dogs? The strange thing is, I can control my dogs while I notice others can't. I can safely leave a plate of steak and chips on the floor with the 6yo GSD in the same room while I go through to make tea knowing it will still be there when I get back. I don't expect that from the pup YET as he is only five months old, but it will come.

When H M The Queen asked her trainer, George Meldrun, how he got her dogs to do some particular piece of work, he replied, "It's all done with cruelty, ma'am". Many a true word spoken in jest and not a canine behaviourist in sight.


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## Dobiegirl (21 April 2014)

People are reluctant to correct their dogs these days, they would sooner give them up to rescue or have them pts which is strange but true. Im appalled at how many dogs these days are dog aggressive and have to be the only dog when they are rehomed, early socialisation is vital but even if not most dogs can be turned around with the correct handling. Im not saying beat 7 tons of poo out of them but dogs need to know who is boss, my dogs are dogs not fur babies. Chastising a dog who is displaying fearful reactions is never going to help that dog but just makes it more fearful so a more sympathetic approach is needed.


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## Dry Rot (21 April 2014)

Dobiegirl said:



			People are reluctant to correct their dogs these days, they would sooner give them up to rescue or have them pts which is strange but true. Im appalled at how many dogs these days are dog aggressive and have to be the only dog when they are rehomed, early socialisation is vital but even if not most dogs can be turned around with the correct handling. Im not saying beat 7 tons of poo out of them but dogs need to know who is boss, my dogs are dogs not fur babies. Chastising a dog who is displaying fearful reactions is never going to help that dog but just makes it more fearful so a more sympathetic approach is needed.
		
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The voice of reason!

I have been around dogs since my early teens, starting with hunt kennels, then onto working gundogs, seldom keeping a kennel of fewer than 20 of my own dogs in my own kennels. When I published a video including clips of my dropping 30+ dogs all at the same time and tiny puppies working like much older dogs, it caused a bit of a sensation.

A dog will tell you when it has got the message about what these days they like to call "a correction", because it will yelp! As Dobiegirl says, they don't need to be chastised once respect has been established -- and that is respect on both sides, let me hasten to add. I tend to keep a low profile on here because dog training is subject to a phenomenon known as "reverse proportionality". The less the experience, the more the adviser will know!

This is a clip from the video showing, I think, 18 dogs dropped. There's another 15 or so out of frame.  As you can see, they are all terrified and cowed!:


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## Zebe (24 April 2014)

clodagh, fides, dobiegirl, alec & dry rot thank you all for you comments and help, i really hope that this thread can go on to help someone else in a similar situation


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