# Had a really poor dentist - could this be the reason for everyth



## Wagtail (5 July 2017)

My, I have had some issues with my lovely mare. I am looking for reassurance really. My confidence has been shattered and I don't even know if I ever want to ride again. Basically had lots of rearing issues and in the end have just got off and decided I've had enough of riding horses. She can just be a big pet. I'm not scared of any other horses and still ride them, but have come to the realisation, that if I can't ride my own, I don't want to do this anymore. I don't want to end up in a wheel chair. This was supposed to be fun! Anyway, long story short horse horse hates any kind of bit contact and will rear vertically repeatedly. Can be made to work through it with a strong rider but I just am not prepared to do it. Have just changed dentists and had her teeth done. Apparently they were awful. Needed loads doing. Looked like they'd never been done ever! I've also had a physio and she says she has no major pain issues but she was very tight throughout her body and especially her head and jaw. She was also tight through lumbar region. I had changed dentists when my old one retired a couple of years ago but never really thought the new dentist was any good as he hardly seemed to do anything. So pleased I changed to another one now!

Anyway, my question is this. Has anyone had such major ridden problems due to teeth, and have the problems been solved when the teeth have been sorted? I feel I have lost all my love of riding since losing my old mare four years ago, and have really just been going through the motions, and really don't know if I ever want to get back on board. Since I had a year off due to illness, my brave pants seem to have done a runner! I think I just need hope that my mare (who could be so talented) could be the horse I always thought she would be. But I've just about had enough.


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## Sugar_and_Spice (5 July 2017)

Can't offer you anything except sympathy.  Since my last good horse retired I've felt the same as you, that I just can't be bothered any more.  I've been going through the motions like you have and wondering if I should give it all up.  This summer though I've got my mojo back, not really sure why.  I've always loved riding, loved being a horse owner but all I really really wanted to do was to ride my old horse, didn't particularly want to ride any others and started to resent the workload created by horses when I wasn't getting what I wanted out of it.  I think it could be a combination of making lots of small changes and some big ones, then making a decision to do my best to enjoy horses as much as I can with what's available.  If I was still feeling resentful after a year I'd call it quits.  The year is nearly up now and I'm feeling better about it all, not wanting to give up yet.  

Sounds like you've just got the wrong horse.  What if you paid someone to school her again now that the teeth are done and see what their assessment of her is?  If she's changed her outlook maybe get back on again and see how you feel.  If she's a bad egg then I think no matter how lovely I'd PTS and get something rideable.  If she's changed but you've just lost your confidence on her regardless (which would be totally understandable given the issues you've had with her) then I'd sell her on to someone who isn't scared of her and get something else for yourself.  There's nothing quite like riding your own horse, that partnership you get when you know them inside out and you're their regular rider/handler, nothing compares to that, but there's no law says your own horse has to be this one.


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## MotherOfChickens (5 July 2017)

Wagtail said:



			Anyway, my question is this. Has anyone had such major ridden problems due to teeth, and have the problems been solved when the teeth have been sorted? I feel I have lost all my love of riding since losing my old mare four years ago, and have really just been going through the motions, and really don't know if I ever want to get back on board. Since I had a year off due to illness, my brave pants seem to have done a runner! I think I just need hope that my mare (who could be so talented) could be the horse I always thought she would be. But I've just about had enough.
		
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sucks about the dentist. have you tried her bitless? as an interrim move?

I sympathise, I lost my old horse-had a horse on loan who was fine but dull in comparison. then waited for my youngster to grow up and we are not compatible. He's not actually put a hoof wrong with me but I am really aware of my limitations so have sent him away to be schooled on. Made the decision to seel this weekend-he will never be the horse I need now. The thought of starting all over again to get the sort of horse I lost is just depressing and feels like too big a hill to climb. I am very close to giving up but the thought of a pony is giving me my mojo back. 

Maybe its time to take a break for a bit. you work with horses I think? I always found it tougher to ride my own when I worked with them all day.


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## Wagtail (5 July 2017)

Sugar_and_Spice said:



			Can't offer you anything except sympathy.  Since my last good horse retired I've felt the same as you, that I just can't be bothered any more.  I've been going through the motions like you have and wondering if I should give it all up.  This summer though I've got my mojo back, not really sure why.  I've always loved riding, loved being a horse owner but all I really really wanted to do was to ride my old horse, didn't particularly want to ride any others and started to resent the workload created by horses when I wasn't getting what I wanted out of it.  I think it could be a combination of making lots of small changes and some big ones, then making a decision to do my best to enjoy horses as much as I can with what's available.  If I was still feeling resentful after a year I'd call it quits.  The year is nearly up now and I'm feeling better about it all, not wanting to give up yet.  

Sounds like you've just got the wrong horse.  What if you paid someone to school her again now that the teeth are done and see what their assessment of her is?  If she's changed her outlook maybe get back on again and see how you feel.  If she's a bad egg then I think no matter how lovely I'd PTS and get something rideable.  If she's changed but you've just lost your confidence on her regardless (which would be totally understandable given the issues you've had with her) then I'd sell her on to someone who isn't scared of her and get something else for yourself.  There's nothing quite like riding your own horse, that partnership you get when you know them inside out and you're their regular rider/handler, nothing compares to that, but there's no law says your own horse has to be this one.
		
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Thank you for such a lovely response. I do feel I am still grieving for my old mare and really all I want is to have her back. I think my love of riding died with her. She was a quirky thing but to me she was perfect. I love my new mare and have had her since a 2 year old (now 6). I wouldn't sell her as I think because she is so beautiful to look at and moves so well, she may get passed as a project from person to person and have her spirit and body broken. If she doesn't improve despite all my efforts she will be a field ornament. She is a delight to do in all other respects and not expensive to feed and care for. I last rode her 2 weeks ago and haave since been paying someone, but despite being ridden 5 times a week, she is actually getting worse. I think part of it is discomfort, but much of it is her attitude. She's a very dominant mare and it's her way or the highway! She could be amazing, but she would need someone who was prepared to ride her virtually 7 days a week as any breaks increase the behaviour. I'm not really that person. I need a horse I can ride around 4 times a week and occasionally give a break to without major issues. So yes, you are right, if this doesn't solve her issues, she is not he horse for me. Sadly, I just don't feel I have the energy anymore to try again with another. It's kind of make or break, I think.


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## Caol Ila (5 July 2017)

Teeth problems can certainly cause nutty behaviour.  My sweet, straightforward, gentle mare who usually looks after her rider became a broncing demon when her mouth was sore.  It only lasted two days because I immediately knew something was wrong, she was so out of character.  Vet came, sorted her teeth, and she went straight back to normal the next day.


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## Wagtail (5 July 2017)

MotherOfChickens said:



			sucks about the dentist. have you tried her bitless? as an interrim move?

I sympathise, I lost my old horse-had a horse on loan who was fine but dull in comparison. then waited for my youngster to grow up and we are not compatible. He's not actually put a hoof wrong with me but I am really aware of my limitations so have sent him away to be schooled on. Made the decision to seel this weekend-he will never be the horse I need now. The thought of starting all over again to get the sort of horse I lost is just depressing and feels like too big a hill to climb. I am very close to giving up but the thought of a pony is giving me my mojo back. 

Maybe its time to take a break for a bit. you work with horses I think? I always found it tougher to ride my own when I worked with them all day.
		
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Oh heck, that is EXACTLY how I feel. Yes, I have a very small livery yard which I have purposely whittled down so I only have 4 horses to care for now. Two are retired, the other a nice all rounder and should be a delight to ride, but I just don't have the love of riding anymore. I love having horses around, but no energy anymore to climb that mountain as you so aptly put it. Definitely lost my mojo!


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## eggs (5 July 2017)

Sorry to hear that you are not enjoying your mare.  I've never had a problem with a horse due to their teeth.  I once had an ex-racehorse who was a sweetheart to ride but when I had his teeth done not long after I got him they were found to be in such an awful state that he had to have them done under a general anaesthetic as they had to go in through his cheeks to get to the back teeth.   He did start to become a bit tricky to ride but after a lot of trial and error it was found that he had fractured his jaw.  Once this was sorted he went back to being an easy ride again.


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## ihatework (5 July 2017)

Has the behaviour improved since the dentist or have you tried a bit less type bridle? If so that might give you an answer on the teeth front.

Next, have you tried her on regumate? If not worth a go for sure.

Finally has she had a proper vet check, KS could be worth ruling out.

It's a case of how much do you plough into it before admitting defeat. I think the above is worth doing. But if at the end of the day she isn't the right horse for you then don't keep trudging on. If there is anything I have learnt over the years then it is a waste of time and emotion if you have the wrong horse.


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## Northern (5 July 2017)

I think that, especially if she is particularly sensitive, the teeth could have played a huge issue with her rearing issues. I think if I were in your shoes, I would be sending her away to a professional for a few weeks after her teeth are sorted before making the decision to retire her at such a young age. My usually lovely young mare is currently erupting canines, and had me off the other day. I had not checked the right side recently (her left had erupted already), and the gums looked incredibly sore (cue guilty me  ). So teeth can really affect them.


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## Wagtail (5 July 2017)

Caol Ila said:



			Teeth problems can certainly cause nutty behaviour.  My sweet, straightforward, gentle mare who usually looks after her rider became a broncing demon when her mouth was sore.  It only lasted two days because I immediately knew something was wrong, she was so out of character.  Vet came, sorted her teeth, and she went straight back to normal the next day.
		
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Thank you. That is good to know. I think my problem was I had nothing to compare it with as she was only just broken. I backed her without a problem (except for the bitting, but I just backed her bitless). Then, because I was unfit after having so much time off, I sent her away to be ridden on. She gave them plently of napping and rearing problems but they got her going sweetly through persistence and professionalism, but coming back here, she was bad from the start. She may be a horse that needs a large, professional yard. I also think she is worse even being ridden by a professional when she sees me. She naps towards me. Looks at me all of the time and if I actually go in the arena the rider can't do a thing with her. But she will work very sweetly for me on my own when she's on the lunge, but my rider cannot lunge her without rearing and acrobatics if I'm watching. So I think half of it may have been teeth, the other problem is me!


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## MotherOfChickens (5 July 2017)

Northern said:



			I think that, especially if she is particularly sensitive, the teeth could have played a huge issue with her rearing issues. I think if I were in your shoes, I would be sending her away to a professional for a few weeks after her teeth are sorted before making the decision to retire her at such a young age. My usually lovely young mare is currently erupting canines, and had me off the other day. I had not checked the right side recently (her left had erupted already), and the gums looked incredibly sore (cue guilty me  ). So teeth can really affect them.
		
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yes, actually my old horse was extremely reactive when his tushes came through and they seemed to take forever!


If you really like this horse, try bitless, try a pro and see where you go from there. mostly though, take the pressure off-you dont have to ride. If someone said you could never ride again (for whatever reason), how would you feel?


I just read your last post. honestly? I dont think you think she's the horse for you, which is fine.


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## Wagtail (5 July 2017)

eggs said:



			Sorry to hear that you are not enjoying your mare.  I've never had a problem with a horse due to their teeth.  I once had an ex-racehorse who was a sweetheart to ride but when I had his teeth done not long after I got him they were found to be in such an awful state that he had to have them done under a general anaesthetic as they had to go in through his cheeks to get to the back teeth.   He did start to become a bit tricky to ride but after a lot of trial and error it was found that he had fractured his jaw.  Once this was sorted he went back to being an easy ride again.
		
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I do wonder about her jaw as the chiro said her head and jaw were exceptionally locked up and sore.



ihatework said:



			Has the behaviour improved since the dentist or have you tried a bit less type bridle? If so that might give you an answer on the teeth front.

Next, have you tried her on regumate? If not worth a go for sure.

Finally has she had a proper vet check, KS could be worth ruling out.

It's a case of how much do you plough into it before admitting defeat. I think the above is worth doing. But if at the end of the day she isn't the right horse for you then don't keep trudging on. If there is anything I have learnt over the years then it is a waste of time and emotion if you have the wrong horse.
		
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I had switched her to a hackamore and she still reared. She also shook her head a lot when lunged in it. However, when I lunged her in it yesterday straight after the dentist, she was great. No head shaking at all so I guess that even a hackamore affects the comfort of the mouth too. There was a definite change. The chiro did not think she had any pain in her back at all, but she was tight over her loins. Her pelvis was also crooked and she had various other misalignments. She's a chiro who has worked wonders for me and my liveries in the past so I'm having her back again next week as is already a noticable improvement in muscle tone after just one session.



Northern said:



			I think that, especially if she is particularly sensitive, the teeth could have played a huge issue with her rearing issues. I think if I were in your shoes, I would be sending her away to a professional for a few weeks after her teeth are sorted before making the decision to retire her at such a young age. My usually lovely young mare is currently erupting canines, and had me off the other day. I had not checked the right side recently (her left had erupted already), and the gums looked incredibly sore (cue guilty me  ). So teeth can really affect them.
		
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Thanks. I am hoping the teeth were her main issue, but because I had never come across that problem before, I wanted to ask others. It's hard to believe teeth could have such a major effect. I've just always had regular dental treatment on my horses and until recently had a very good dentist. She has just come back from the professionals. They got her going well there but I think I need to have her working well here as the same thing will probably happen again when she comes back to a more relaxed and quiet yard.


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## LadySam (5 July 2017)

Tough one.  You have my empathy.

We don't get horses through whose problems are 'magically' fixed by the dentist, but we get plenty through with mouth related problems who the dentist can help improve, but aren't the complete answer.  I have a mare I'm working with at the moment who we didn't train but has come to us as a problem horse with rearing issues - she's lovely, generally very sweet and sensible but panics when it comes to a certain degree of contact.  We're working through it because we have to and it's our job, but I completely understand that an individual wouldn't want to, and what it might do to a lone person.  I certainly wouldn't want to do it on my own.  We at least have our little team working on/with this horse, and ultimately, if we come to the conclusion she's too far gone and can't be made safe for riding, we can say so and ensure she still has a good life.  That's what it takes to deal with a real problem horse like this - a team of experienced people to share the burden with an 'out'.  It's a lot for one person to deal with, even if you're no novice.

There's no shame in throwing in the towel when you're trying to handle all this by yourself.  And saying 'this is not what I signed up for'.

I guess the real question is, is it just this horse or horses in general?  If it's just this horse turning you off, then let her be a field ornament as you say and get another who fulfils your needs, who can genuinely replace your old mare (if that's possible) and helps you rediscover your joy.  If you have a solid idea of what you really want from a horse - and I think you probably do - then you can go shopping for one that fills the brief.


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## Caol Ila (5 July 2017)

Wagtail said:



			Thank you. That is good to know. I think my problem was I had nothing to compare it with as she was only just broken. I backed her without a problem (except for the bitting, but I just backed her bitless). Then, because I was unfit after having so much time off, I sent her away to be ridden on. She gave them plently of napping and rearing problems but they got her going sweetly through persistence and professionalism, but coming back here, she was bad from the start. She may be a horse that needs a large, professional yard. I also think she is worse even being ridden by a professional when she sees me. She naps towards me. Looks at me all of the time and if I actually go in the arena the rider can't do a thing with her. But she will work very sweetly for me on my own when she's on the lunge, but my rider cannot lunge her without rearing and acrobatics if I'm watching. So I think half of it may have been teeth, the other problem is me!
		
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This post makes it sound more complicated than just her teeth.  If she gave the pros a hard time when they first backed her, that suggests to me that her 'go to' reaction when she finds something confusing, scary, sore, or simply doesn't want to do it is to rear.  Every horse has a 'thing' it likes doing when something isn't right.  My old QH was a great fan of planting and refusing to move for love nor money.  Not scary, but a ballache to deal with.  My Shire-TB is usually sweet and tells you things aren't right by dropping behind the leg and not quite taking the contact (that's why her brief spate of taking off bucking and throwing her head was so weird).  My friend's Hannoverian will run around on his forehand with his head in the air and refusing to not shape himself like a banana.  My QH-draft cross I broke in was very strange because he never complained about anything.

If I had one who's default form of objection was rearing, I'm not sure I would be up for that, to be honest.  

It sounds like you went from a great horse to one that's a lot of work and not much fun.  I think that would make anyone question their love of riding.


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## ihatework (5 July 2017)

Ok. So she hasn't seen a vet and hasn't been on regumate. 2 quick checks right on your finger tips.

That said the root of this is most likely to be temprement and production in the 4-6 year bracket. Tricky horse that needs a professional set up. NOTHING to be ashamed of, I'd never have the skill and set up to deal with that type either.

A good friend of mine events and took in a livery March of last year. 7yo mare. My god she was a witch, had managed to scare everyone around her and was rapidly heading towards a sticky ending had it not been for her owner stepping in and being prepared to throw time and money at her (not everyone one would!).
The mare has taken 12 months behind the scenes of patience, micromanagement, and some seriously consistent handling and riding. Trying to set her up to succeed, correcting her at precise times for specific reasons, ignoring other behaviours when all you want to do is wallop her! This year the attitude is changing (although she still has witchy moments) and she has started to be seen in public, is enjoying her work and will likely do a 1* before the season is out. She could easily however have been in a hounds stomach!


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## Wagtail (5 July 2017)

LadySam said:



			Tough one.  You have my empathy.

We don't get horses through whose problems are 'magically' fixed by the dentist, but we get plenty through with mouth related problems who the dentist can help improve, but aren't the complete answer.  I have a mare I'm working with at the moment who we didn't train but has come to us as a problem horse with rearing issues - she's lovely, generally very sweet and sensible but panics when it comes to a certain degree of contact.  We're working through it because we have to and it's our job, but I completely understand that an individual wouldn't want to, and what it might do to a lone person.  I certainly wouldn't want to do it on my own.  We at least have our little team working on/with this horse, and ultimately, if we come to the conclusion she's too far gone and can't be made safe for riding, we can say so and ensure she still has a good life.  That's what it takes to deal with a real problem horse like this - a team of experienced people to share the burden with an 'out'.  It's a lot for one person to deal with, even if you're no novice.

There's no shame in throwing in the towel when you're trying to handle all this by yourself.  And saying 'this is not what I signed up for'.

I guess the real question is, is it just this horse or horses in general?  If it's just this horse turning you off, then let her be a field ornament as you say and get another who fulfils your needs, who can genuinely replace your old mare (if that's possible) and helps you rediscover your joy.  If you have a solid idea of what you really want from a horse - and I think you probably do - then you can go shopping for one that fills the brief.
		
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Thank you. That is really good advice. I think the main problem is after waiting so long for her and being so patient and having so many delays, I am just so thoroughly disappointed. I think if I can't make this work, then that's me done, if I'm honest. I love horses but only want to ride my own now. One that I have a bond with, and I click with. I don't have any desire to ride anymore. I would, if I could make it work with this mare, but if not, I won't be buying another. I know how much time and effort it takes to get that harmony and I just don't have it in me anymore. Maybe I need some anti depressants!


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## ihatework (5 July 2017)

I don't think it takes time and effort to get that harmony. I think it's either there or it's not.

Certainly the only two I have owned that fit that category I knew the instant I sat on them. One was 6 when I got him and the mare was 9. The bond/harmony certainly developed over time but it was an instant feeling when I first sat in them that they were the horses I wanted to ride


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## ester (5 July 2017)

Wagtail you bought her as a youngster not knowing what she would turn in to and whether at that point the pair of you would be suited anyway.

Regarding the dentist thing I am always a bit sceptical when a new one rubbishes the previous ones work, I've also had 2 well rated dentists and a vet do frank in recent years and all have made noises about bits being missed, but you know what he just wears really wonky, always has so I think it looks like bits weren't done when they were. 

Iirc you had been riding the mare bitless anyway? I would  send her to someone you trust to properly assess her and if appropriate sell her on to the right home, or whether you then decide you click a bit more and want to keep her.


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## Wagtail (5 July 2017)

Caol Ila said:



			This post makes it sound more complicated than just her teeth.  If she gave the pros a hard time when they first backed her, that suggests to me that her 'go to' reaction when she finds something confusing, scary, sore, or simply doesn't want to do it is to rear.  Every horse has a 'thing' it likes doing when something isn't right.  My old QH was a great fan of planting and refusing to move for love nor money.  Not scary, but a ballache to deal with.  My Shire-TB is usually sweet and tells you things aren't right by dropping behind the leg and not quite taking the contact (that's why her brief spate of taking off bucking and throwing her head was so weird).  My friend's Hannoverian will run around on his forehand with his head in the air and refusing to not shape himself like a banana.  My QH-draft cross I broke in was very strange because he never complained about anything.

If I had one who's default form of objection was rearing, I'm not sure I would be up for that, to be honest.  

It sounds like you went from a great horse to one that's a lot of work and not much fun.  I think that would make anyone question their love of riding.
		
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Yep. I have never had a rearer before. I have ridden them but they haven't been my own, and if they were persistent, then I just didn't get back on them again. I suppose this time it is my horse and my problem. But I was honestly getting on her each day and thinking 'is this the day I end up in a wheelchair?'. So after one session in which I spent the whole time trying to prevent her getting her weight back to throw in a rear, I just stopped, got off and decided I'd had enough. i didn't want to spend my time doing that. I wanted to school her for dressage, not be battling to keep her forward and arrange her feet so she couldn't rear.



ihatework said:



			Ok. So she hasn't seen a vet and hasn't been on regumate. 2 quick checks right on your finger tips.

That said the root of this is most likely to be temprement and production in the 4-6 year bracket. Tricky horse that needs a professional set up. NOTHING to be ashamed of, I'd never have the skill and set up to deal with that type either.

A good friend of mine events and took in a livery March of last year. 7yo mare. My god she was a witch, had managed to scare everyone around her and was rapidly heading towards a sticky ending had it not been for her owner stepping in and being prepared to throw time and money at her (not everyone one would!).
The mare has taken 12 months behind the scenes of patience, micromanagement, and some seriously consistent handling and riding. Trying to set her up to succeed, correcting her at precise times for specific reasons, ignoring other behaviours when all you want to do is wallop her! This year the attitude is changing (although she still has witchy moments) and she has started to be seen in public, is enjoying her work and will likely do a 1* before the season is out. She could easily however have been in a hounds stomach!
		
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Unfortunately I can't do anything until next Tuesday/Wed as chiro did so much work around her face that she cannot be worked for a week. I will then do a couple of lunge sessions with her and then arrange for my (very brave) rider to come back. The gutting thing about this mare is that she could be so outstanding. She could be so special. I'm not just saying that. I saw it in her from the start. But, I don't think I'm going to be the person to bring it out in her. Maybe 20 years ago, possibly even 10 years ago, but not anymore. She is undoubtably a professional's horse unless fixing her teeth has a miraculous effect. I do think her hormones have some effect too and have her on chaste berries, but probably regumate is something to try before throwing in the towel. I'll discuss with the vet. I asked my chiro about KS but she said she moves too well for her to have it, and having had several horses here with the condition, I'm inclined to agree with her. You can't tell by palpating and soreness, but they all tend to move in a very characteristic way IME.


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## Northern (5 July 2017)

Wagtail said:



			Thank you. That is really good advice. I think the main problem is after waiting so long for her and being so patient and having so many delays, I am just so thoroughly disappointed. I think if I can't make this work, then that's me done, if I'm honest. I love horses but only want to ride my own now. One that I have a bond with, and I click with. I don't have any desire to ride anymore. I would, if I could make it work with this mare, but if not, I won't be buying another. I know how much time and effort it takes to get that harmony and I just don't have it in me anymore. Maybe I need some anti depressants!
		
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This post tells me that perhaps you should consider finding something else. If the passion with this horse just isn't there, it will make it so much harder to battle through, riding is supposed to be fun! I think it's disappointing that you would consider not buying another, I'm sure there are so many out there that could make you happy and want to ride. Are you able to turn this mare away for a while? Maybe a break for both of you would clear things up?


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## Caol Ila (5 July 2017)

That all said, before throwing in the towel, have you thought about trying a different trainer?  The guy who broke in AdorableAlice's Ted worked wonders with a horse who looked like he could easily have been a big furry lawn ornament.  Maybe someone like that could turn your mare's attitude around.  See if that guy is taking in horses?


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## LadySam (5 July 2017)

Wagtail said:



			I think if I can't make this work, then that's me done, if I'm honest...  
Maybe I need some anti depressants!
		
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Or maybe you need a break to get over the disappointment and see what happens to your desire in time.  I mean, I'm sure you know yourself well, I'm not trying to second guess that, but it's early days and very easy to catastrophise and be absolute in your thinking when it's all so raw.

I have had this feeling myself, both with horses and with my other/real long term professional career (classical singing and music).  I had that many kicks in the guts (metaphorically speaking) along the way that I have thought 'Ok, I'm done with this.  Universe, I get the message!!'  And taken a lengthy break, thinking it was all over.  But then something would happen that inspired me and restoked the fire, and off I would go again with new plans, ambitions and aims.  And very happy to have reconnected with it.

I guess what I'm saying is that if you feel it's best for you right now to walk away from it all, then do it.  But be sure that's what you need.  And don't ever think that just because you've closed the door that you can't open it again.  You can always open it again.  Sometimes we need to lose a little part of ourselves and miss it for a little while to realise just what a big part of us it was.  

I get the impression that horses and riding are a big part of what makes you tick.  Sometimes we need reminding and a break can do that.  All part of life's rich tapestry, etc.


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## DabDab (5 July 2017)

Oh, so sorry to hear. 
Re the teeth - yes, have known a problem with teeth cause extreme reactions, particularly in horses prone to react in a dramatic way to discomfort. 
My young mare is a little sensitive and I suspected problems with teeth from the excessive amount of mouthing that went on on the three or so occasions that I popped a bit in her mouth. After I got her teeth seen to the mouthing went away, but interestingly so did a number of other 'quirks' that I hadn't really considered as related to teeth. She didn't like any pressure on her nose at all (and I'm quite sure that if I'd have forced the issue I would have got an explosion), she used to flick her nose when you put a headcolllar on, she used to flick stuff about a lot (with the demeanor of a horse with a stable vice rather than horse playing). So it is definitely something I'm very conscious of having to watch with her going forwards.

Based on the experience with my girl I would caution anyone with a horse with suspected teeth problems against using a bitless bridle. Cranking the pressure round the jaw like a hackamore I should think could be extremely unpleasant for a horse with sharp bits on the outside face of their teeth and sensitive inside cheeks.

It sounds like a rubbish situation you're in at the moment, but I would just say that there's nothing that means you will always feel this way, and sometimes you have to take a proper break in order to want to come back....


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## MotherOfChickens (5 July 2017)

DabDab said:



			Based on the experience with my girl I would caution anyone with a horse with suspected teeth problems against using a bitless bridle. Cranking the pressure round the jaw like a hackamore I should think could be extremely unpleasant for a horse with sharp bits on the outside face of their teeth and sensitive inside cheeks.

.
		
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fwiw when I say take something bitless I wouldnt automatcially go for a hackamore  or a Dr Cooks type.


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## Sukistokes2 (5 July 2017)

I bought a colt foal at 11 months, loved him, cared for him, taught him all I wanted him to know. He is prefect in every way, sane, sensible, forward going, loving, talented and I adore the very bones of him ......but..... he is too small. 

I struggled with it for a while and I did try but we never clicked because at the back of my mind was the worry that I was too big for him. In the end I gave up and decided to loan him. I too will not sell, because why would I sell my pet? After a disaster of a loan, I found him a teenager to play with, he returned after a year, a fantastic horse, she had done loads on him and he had blossomed.  I did not even have to advertise as a new loaner saw my post about him being home and contacted me. She is an adult but smaller then the original teenager. He settled straight away and is doing so well. His loaner is a novice and that were my boy comes in to his own as he really looks after his rider. For the more experienced rider he is a bit of a toad.....oh well she has that to look forward to!

What I'm trying to say is, if you want to keep your horse as a pasture puff, good for you, however there might be a rider who she would suit.

I'd be tempted to give her some time off, time to settle and time to notice that her teeth do not hurt. Then think about using her.

As for bitless  what about a dually or a transend.


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## DabDab (5 July 2017)

MotherOfChickens said:



			fwiw when I say take something bitless I wouldnt automatcially go for a hackamore  or a Dr Cooks type.
		
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Yep, neither would I, but Wagtail mentioned the use of a hackamore. Sorry, should've been clearer.


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## Wagtail (5 July 2017)

DabDab said:



			Oh, so sorry to hear. 
Re the teeth - yes, have known a problem with teeth cause extreme reactions, particularly in horses prone to react in a dramatic way to discomfort. 
My young mare is a little sensitive and I suspected problems with teeth from the excessive amount of mouthing that went on on the three or so occasions that I popped a bit in her mouth. After I got her teeth seen to the mouthing went away, but interestingly so did a number of other 'quirks' that I hadn't really considered as related to teeth. She didn't like any pressure on her nose at all (and I'm quite sure that if I'd have forced the issue I would have got an explosion), she used to flick her nose when you put a headcolllar on, she used to flick stuff about a lot (with the demeanor of a horse with a stable vice rather than horse playing). So it is definitely something I'm very conscious of having to watch with her going forwards.

Based on the experience with my girl I would caution anyone with a horse with suspected teeth problems against using a bitless bridle. Cranking the pressure round the jaw like a hackamore I should think could be extremely unpleasant for a horse with sharp bits on the outside face of their teeth and sensitive inside cheeks.

It sounds like a rubbish situation you're in at the moment, but I would just say that there's nothing that means you will always feel this way, and sometimes you have to take a proper break in order to want to come back....
		
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That would explain why she was just as bad with the hackamore, and yes, she was always bad when pressure was applied to her nose. For example, if strong when leading and I gave her a yank on the rope she would get twice as bad. Yesterday lungeing in the hackamore (lunge rein attached to the side and not the end of the shanks) she was lovely. It gives me some slight hope that this may be her problem as a lot of things start to make sense (even unridden) if this is the case.


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## Wagtail (5 July 2017)

Thanks, everyone for your supportive posts. If I could get this girl going then I know my love of riding would return. I just don't want to start again with another and risk it not working out. I did go and ride her at the trainers and was really excited about having her home and getting on with her training here, then this happened. I think it is the disappointment, the loss of my old mare and just wanting to train with this particular horse, her beauty her athletisism and amazing extensions. We do have a lovely relationship on the ground. I guess I need to see what I have in a week. It's a shame I can't crack on right away, but a week off may do us both good. I'll report back when I see what I have next week! If it all fails, I may just buy myself a couple of minis and retire her with them. She won't mind. I will keep looking at her and thinking of what could have been though.


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## DabDab (5 July 2017)

Wagtail said:



			That would explain why she was just as bad with the hackamore, and yes, she was always bad when pressure was applied to her nose. For example, if strong when leading and I gave her a yank on the rope she would get twice as bad. Yesterday lungeing in the hackamore (lunge rein attached to the side and not the end of the shanks) she was lovely. It gives me some slight hope that this may be her problem as a lot of things start to make sense (even unridden) if this is the case.
		
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Yeah, before teeth had been done I tried a dually on mine because she could be very sluggish when heading to the field (coming she had a lovely marching walk), and I took it off again very rapidly...


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## ester (5 July 2017)

Wags at the end of the day you can train her to do it all from the ground if you don't fancy getting back on top. Maybe not any additional airs for the time being though . Be kind to yourself from a time aspect. Are you able to get anyone to come to you just to give you that boost you had bringing her home?


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## KittenInTheTree (5 July 2017)

The chiro doesn't have x-ray vision and nor do you. Get the vet to examine the mare properly for anything that might cause rearing. And stop expecting her to fix you - it's not fair on her, you, or the memory of your old horse. Fine, you're grieving, I've been there, I get it. But that's your burden to carry until you set it down. Don't put it on her in the meantime.


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## Wagtail (5 July 2017)

ester said:



			Wags at the end of the day you can train her to do it all from the ground if you don't fancy getting back on top. Maybe not any additional airs for the time being though . Be kind to yourself from a time aspect. Are you able to get anyone to come to you just to give you that boost you had bringing her home?
		
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Yes, I have the same rider as did all her riding away. Bless her, she's coming to me most days. I was intending on getting back on but the rearing has got worse and worse, so I haven't got back on. At least I know it isn't just me as she's actually got worse. Really hoping we've found her problem and it isn't just attitude. I always believe that if a horse is putting so much energy into not doing their work, they must have a really good reason.


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## SusieT (5 July 2017)

The horse who is napping and rearing and has bad teeth and hasn't seen a vet...
The poor horse is trying to tell you she's uncomfortable - and don't reply that you would know as clearly nobody noticed her teeth.
Get a good equine vet to work her up , give her time off to let her mouth heal and association settle, get a different rider who she may gel with better, all possible avenues you need to investigate.
Don't just keep riding her and expect her to improve - tightness normally reflects lameness or unsoundness somewhere.


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## Wagtail (5 July 2017)

KittenInTheTree said:



			The chiro doesn't have x-ray vision and nor do you. Get the vet to examine the mare properly for anything that might cause rearing. And stop expecting her to fix you - it's not fair on her, you, or the memory of your old horse. Fine, you're grieving, I've been there, I get it. But that's your burden to carry until you set it down. Don't put it on her in the meantime.
		
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I'm not expecting her to fix me. I don't need fixing. I have come to a time in my life when I am realising that I may have lost my love of riding horses. It's a major life decision for me. My little mare is a very lucky girl because if I can't solve her ridden problems, she gets to retire, so don't go feeling sorry for her. She has the vet booked on Monday too. I am doing all the checks and having all her needs met. I am also doing this because the trainers want to use negative reinforcement on her for rearing and I won't let them until I know there is nothing physically wrong with her.


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## Wagtail (5 July 2017)

SusieT said:



			The horse who is napping and rearing and has bad teeth and hasn't seen a vet...
The poor horse is trying to tell you she's uncomfortable - and don't reply that you would know as clearly nobody noticed her teeth.
Get a good equine vet to work her up , give her time off to let her mouth heal and association settle, get a different rider who she may gel with better, all possible avenues you need to investigate.
Don't just keep riding her and expect her to improve - tightness normally reflects lameness or unsoundness somewhere.
		
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Vet has been booked for over a week. I am discussing xrays of her back and regumate as well as other possibilities (as already stated in a much earlier thread). You are preaching to the converted SusieT. You won't get a person more likely to investigate every possible physical issue (against trainer's advice by the way) than me. Trainers who are vastly experienced in successfully breaking, training and competing more horses than you've probably seen in your life, have told me it is just her attitude and dominance. I am going against this view off my own back because I want to eliminate everything. Horse is fully insured and will want for nothing. And the vet has looked in her mouth every year she has her jabs, as well as a regular dentist. How was I to know he was rubbish? Can you explain that?


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## SusieT (5 July 2017)

The vet should have been booked when the young horse persistantly reared and napped and trainers IME don't often think about unsoundness - the words attitude and dominance say a lot to me about the attitude of the trainers personally and I'd be trying someone else - not least because they have stunningly failed to produce a nice rideable horse - I hope between all your options your horse improves.


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## Wagtail (5 July 2017)

Just to reiterate, this horse has only just been broken in. She has been back with me for two weeks and I have already had these things checked and the vet booked over a week ago. I wonder, SuzieT and Kitten in a tree how many horses you have broken in or trained from scratch? Horse goes away for 4 weeks and is troublesome at first but then riding nicely. Comes back home and is trouble again. So how long do you leave them to settle before thinking something physical may be going on and not just a strong willed horse that is also upset by all the moving about? I think getting things in motion within two weeks isn't all that bad, especially when being advised by far more experienced people that there is no physical problem. Jeeze, why don't you go critisising someone who actually is being neglectful or cruel because you're barking up the wrong tree here.


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## Sukistokes2 (5 July 2017)

I am glad you are insured and can have a good go at having a look whats wrong. However, as my vet said to me, you could spend thousands looking, find loads of things it could be and still be none the wiser for all the xrays and scans. Because of these technologies there are some people who think they will give all the answers, often they only present you with more questions. Biology is a complex thing. You have to do what you think is right and go as far as you need to, beyond that you need to ignore any negativity. I really hope you feel better soon and that your mare recovers.


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## TheMule (5 July 2017)

If the mare is rearing once the teeth have settled down then I'd certainly want to investigate other issues. A sore mouth would certainly be justification for the behaviour, especially in a sensitive, opinionated mare.
It sounds like she will benefit from a chance and then you/ the breaker can ride her away and find her a job if you don't want to ride her. 4 weeks with the breakers isn't very long and she may just need a quiet summer of low pressure hacking. I'm doing similar with my little drama queen 4yr old


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## Wagtail (5 July 2017)

Sukistokes2 said:



			I am glad you are insured and can have a good go at having a look whats wrong. However, as my vet said to me, you could spend thousands looking, find loads of things it could be and still be none the wiser for all the xrays and scans. Because of these technologies there are some people who think they will give all the answers, often they only present you with more questions. Biology is a complex thing. You have to do what you think is right and go as far as you need to, beyond that you need to ignore any negativity. I really hope you feel better soon and that your mare recovers.
		
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Thank you. If anything like KS was discovered I wouldn't have it treated. I'd just retire her. Been there and done that. As you say, it often opens up a whole can of other problems. Rarely is there just one issue going on with a horse.

Having said all that, this mare is the most strong willed horse I have come across. My instinct is that she does have a physical issue that is causing her some amount of discomfort and that this has triggered some of the behaviour. Hopefully it is a simple thing such as teeth, but if not, and she's comfortable in the field (as she is) she can be an ornament. She is also a naughty girl at times and I have had some proper vertical rearing even when just walking her in hand with a soft fleecy halter. So some of this behaviour may be excitement or temper. That's the problem; not knowing, because excitement or temper needs to be reprimanded if it's dangerous behaviour such as rearing, but pain related behaviour should not be reprimanded. Then, as I suspect in this case, you can have a mixture of both.


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## ester (5 July 2017)

I'm confused? I thought you'd been riding her before that which is why you had the ghost saddle that you have just replaced? I just searched ghost to check and she was backed October 15 and restarted last spring (though you maybe delayed that, said about rebacking/bits October 16 so how is she now 4 weeks broken?


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## Wagtail (5 July 2017)

TheMule said:



			If the mare is rearing once the teeth have settled down then I'd certainly want to investigate other issues. A sore mouth would certainly be justification for the behaviour, especially in a sensitive, opinionated mare.
It sounds like she will benefit from a chance and then you/ the breaker can ride her away and find her a job if you don't want to ride her. 4 weeks with the breakers isn't very long and she may just need a quiet summer of low pressure hacking. I'm doing similar with my little drama queen 4yr old
		
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Thanks. The reason it was only 4 weeks is because I'd already done the groundwork and backed her. She's actually 6 now as her training was delayed due to my illhealth, so she's been a lady of leisure for a long time already. Good luck with your drama queen!


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## Wagtail (5 July 2017)

ester said:



			I'm confused? I thought you'd been riding her before that which is why you had the ghost saddle that you have just replaced? I just searched ghost to check and she was backed October 15 and restarted last spring so how is she now 4 weeks broken?
		
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Sorry she was at the trainers 4 weeks being ridden away. I backed her in the Ghost saddle 2 years ago but it was only light backing (being led around as a passenger). I repeated this again last year. I don't count that as being broken in. She's been ridden here for 2 weeks since being at the trainers, then had a week off due to the various investigations. So I would say she's only been broken in for around 4 weeks.

ETA: I never had any trouble backing her. My only problem was bitting her and so I ended up backing her in just a rope halter.


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## ester (5 July 2017)

With you, partly because someone asked about her and you the other day and I said I was sure you were riding she's definitely been showing the bitting issues since first backing though? I assume not the rearing etc though?


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## PeterNatt (5 July 2017)

I would suggest that you ask your vet to refer your horse to one of the equine hospitals such as Rossdales in Newmarket so that they can determine exactly what is wrong with your horse.


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## wyrdsister (5 July 2017)

It sounds like you're doing everything you can. The vet work up is a good move, I think, as while dramatic reactions from teeth are possible, what you've described suggests something elsewhere may be wrong too.

I've had a rearer. My daft dotty diva mare's first response to anything that worried, annoyed, or hurt her was to go straight up & strike with her front feet. At 17hh+ that was no joke! Hers was a mixture of 3 things: natural tendency (others in her line do it), bad handling before I bought her at 2, and (it later emerged) pain. Her rearing fits were epic: ranging from a single vertical one to multiple to multiple, including bunny hopping on her back legs (front end still straight up in the air) before launching into a capriole. Scariest horse I've ever handled. The point of telling you this is that I did get her to mostly keep all 4 feet on the ground with A LOT of patience, persistence, and a sense of humour, and managed to back her and ride her away calmly at 4.5. She would still rear in hand, particularly on the lunge, but it was playful instead of threatening, and she'd get down when I grumbled at her and work sweetly. It because part of who she was and it was never going to really go away. 

The day she went up under saddle, she was booked in at the vet for a work up. I knew she could go over backwards (and had seen her do it on the lunge and in the field) so there was no question that if she was going to rear with a rider like that she couldn&#8217;t be a riding horse, but I had to know first if there was a physical issue. Xrays showed 7 crushed together processes in her back, 5 right under the saddle. She'd never trotted up lame, been fine for the physio, always been easy and cheerful to saddle. Even my vet was a bit stunned. 

She had the op and a long rehab, and, my, was she an easier lady to deal with! I lost her a year later to secondary issues in her back legs, but she had dramatically improved after her surgery, and was turning into a really lovely, good fun, willing partner. Yes, she still reared from time to time - but only half the height, ears pricked, several feet back, pouncing like a puppy trying to play! 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that my experience of an epic rearer was that a) training helped, b) she had hidden pain issues that when removed cut the problem in half, and c) that she was always going to default to a rear as her go-to behaviour BUT it was manageable and I genuinely think she grew out of it to some degree, as she grew up and we built a relationship.

I would never ever have sold Lil on, but for all her dramatics I miss her every day and would have loved to have shared a riding career with her. I seriously thought about giving up when I lost her. I didn't because I had an old mare who needed me. And then there was this youngster who kept staring at me on Horse Quest. Almost everything I didn't want, and a 5.5 hour drive away. She's lazing in the sunshine in my field right now ;-)

Whether happens, Wagtail, good luck. Keep us posted. I love the tales from your yard.


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## quizzie (5 July 2017)

Teeth issues could undoubtedly cause all the issues you are describing.....be it unerupted teeth ,...including canines....mares can have them too.....wolf teeth....retained crowns....fractured teeth ..etc etc etc

I have a 7 yo who has always been very reactive  to bit pressure.....way too light in the contact, and hollowing when jumping if the reins not fully released.

Nothing was obviously wrong, except that various teeth were very slow to erupt.
Finally this year we were left with one unerupted canine, and decided to split the gum to allow any pressure to ease.....We also xrayed to check for kissing spines as his back was so sore from holding himself...!,

The difference is amazing.....despite him not apparently reacting to finger pressure over the unerupted tooth....since the very minor op to release it, he is now taking a much improved contact, using his head and neck properly when jumping, and is less reactive/ explosive!

So even if there is nothing particularly obvious on examination.....push for a more detailed check including X-ray/scans.... you might still find the horse you hoped for is there.


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## Wagtail (5 July 2017)

ester said:



			With you, partly because someone asked about her and you the other day and I said I was sure you were riding she's definitely been showing the bitting issues since first backing though? I assume not the rearing etc though?
		
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Yes, she has had a problem with the bit since day one but as she was seeing a dentist every 9 months and had had her wolf teeth removed I didn't think teeth was her issue. The rearing was very occasional and seemed to be linked to excitement rather than discomfort. For example if I was leading her in hand and horses caame galloping up the fenceline or if she spotted someone she recognised and liked ahead and I wasn't going fast enough. Or I was lunging and someone came to watch. It was show off kind of stuff.


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## Wagtail (5 July 2017)

PeterNatt said:



			I would suggest that you ask your vet to refer your horse to one of the equine hospitals such as Rossdales in Newmarket so that they can determine exactly what is wrong with your horse.
		
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At the moment we have not ruled out teeth being the main problem and I won't know that until I start working her again in a week. But unless there's a welfare problem (as in is not comfortable in the field) then she will not be going to any hospital just so that I can ride her. I will do scans, xrays etc at home. If they can't find anything and she is still unridable, I will retire her. Too stressful for the horse to be travelled away, poked and prodded, and treated then box rest, then rehab just to be ridden. She moves athletically and extravagantly so she's not in pain when not ridden so I'm not putting her through any pain in the hope that it makes her rideable.


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## Wagtail (5 July 2017)

wyrdsister said:



			It sounds like you're doing everything you can. The vet work up is a good move, I think, as while dramatic reactions from teeth are possible, what you've described suggests something elsewhere may be wrong too.

I've had a rearer. My daft dotty diva mare's first response to anything that worried, annoyed, or hurt her was to go straight up & strike with her front feet. At 17hh+ that was no joke! Hers was a mixture of 3 things: natural tendency (others in her line do it), bad handling before I bought her at 2, and (it later emerged) pain. Her rearing fits were epic: ranging from a single vertical one to multiple to multiple, including bunny hopping on her back legs (front end still straight up in the air) before launching into a capriole. Scariest horse I've ever handled. The point of telling you this is that I did get her to mostly keep all 4 feet on the ground with A LOT of patience, persistence, and a sense of humour, and managed to back her and ride her away calmly at 4.5. She would still rear in hand, particularly on the lunge, but it was playful instead of threatening, and she'd get down when I grumbled at her and work sweetly. It because part of who she was and it was never going to really go away. 

The day she went up under saddle, she was booked in at the vet for a work up. I knew she could go over backwards (and had seen her do it on the lunge and in the field) so there was no question that if she was going to rear with a rider like that she couldn&#8217;t be a riding horse, but I had to know first if there was a physical issue. Xrays showed 7 crushed together processes in her back, 5 right under the saddle. She'd never trotted up lame, been fine for the physio, always been easy and cheerful to saddle. Even my vet was a bit stunned. 

She had the op and a long rehab, and, my, was she an easier lady to deal with! I lost her a year later to secondary issues in her back legs, but she had dramatically improved after her surgery, and was turning into a really lovely, good fun, willing partner. Yes, she still reared from time to time - but only half the height, ears pricked, several feet back, pouncing like a puppy trying to play! 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that my experience of an epic rearer was that a) training helped, b) she had hidden pain issues that when removed cut the problem in half, and c) that she was always going to default to a rear as her go-to behaviour BUT it was manageable and I genuinely think she grew out of it to some degree, as she grew up and we built a relationship.

I would never ever have sold Lil on, but for all her dramatics I miss her every day and would have loved to have shared a riding career with her. I seriously thought about giving up when I lost her. I didn't because I had an old mare who needed me. And then there was this youngster who kept staring at me on Horse Quest. Almost everything I didn't want, and a 5.5 hour drive away. She's lazing in the sunshine in my field right now ;-)

Whether happens, Wagtail, good luck. Keep us posted. I love the tales from your yard.
		
Click to expand...

Thank you. Well done for dealing with such scary behaviour and it is nice to hear a KS success story. So sorry you lost her a year later. My vets have the equipment needed to xray her back and so I would do that here if need be. I wouldn't get her treated though. I have been there and failed and have seen most others who go down that path fail too. I think that if she is very happy and comfortable in herself then I would just retire her. Hopefully, it won't come to that though.


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## Wagtail (5 July 2017)

quizzie said:



			Teeth issues could undoubtedly cause all the issues you are describing.....be it unerupted teeth ,...including canines....mares can have them too.....wolf teeth....retained crowns....fractured teeth ..etc etc etc

I have a 7 yo who has always been very reactive  to bit pressure.....way too light in the contact, and hollowing when jumping if the reins not fully released.

Nothing was obviously wrong, except that various teeth were very slow to erupt.
Finally this year we were left with one unerupted canine, and decided to split the gum to allow any pressure to ease.....We also xrayed to check for kissing spines as his back was so sore from holding himself...!,

The difference is amazing.....despite him not apparently reacting to finger pressure over the unerupted tooth....since the very minor op to release it, he is now taking a much improved contact, using his head and neck properly when jumping, and is less reactive/ explosive!

So even if there is nothing particularly obvious on examination.....push for a more detailed check including X-ray/scans.... you might still find the horse you hoped for is there.
		
Click to expand...


Thank you. I am so pleased you got to the bottom of your horse's issue. I may have her head xrayed too if nothing else comes up. It was strange how locked up the upper part of her head was. When the chiro released that, a lot of here tension in her body went too.


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## mjcssjw2 (5 July 2017)

Wagtail, i have a little mare, think we got ours at the same time, she is extremely extremely sensitive, wouldnt settle in the mouth, is very sharp, very intelligent and doesnot like being ridden by people who want to ride her in a firm contact - you have to be extremely light with her, so light it scares a lot of people, i have tried numerous bit and bridle combinations, if someone gets on her who holds her to tight she will rear - simples - she is also very sensitive when in season - so i leave her, i do lunge her and lunge her in side reins or an equiami to help her get used to the contact and she will now tolerate that. Recently i discovered it helps her if i ride with the equiami but with it ridiculously loose - its literally dangling doing nothing, but that tiny bit of weight seems to help her get the idea. My instructor is currently riding her as i got hit by  a car on my other horse a few weeks ago and even that is a lot for her to contend with, its like she has to like who is riding her - or trust them. This probably all sounds completely bonkers and i have been riding very successfully for 40+ years - sigh. I would have the vet out and then do stuff yourself, she probably trusts you she has been with you quite a while. Even if you have to try and restart her again  my mare gets completely upset if new people try and do to much with her - good luck


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## Wagtail (5 July 2017)

mjcssjw2 said:



			Wagtail, i have a little mare, think we got ours at the same time, she is extremely extremely sensitive, wouldnt settle in the mouth, is very sharp, very intelligent and doesnot like being ridden by people who want to ride her in a firm contact - you have to be extremely light with her, so light it scares a lot of people, i have tried numerous bit and bridle combinations, if someone gets on her who holds her to tight she will rear - simples - she is also very sensitive when in season - so i leave her, i do lunge her and lunge her in side reins or an equiami to help her get used to the contact and she will now tolerate that. Recently i discovered it helps her if i ride with the equiami but with it ridiculously loose - its literally dangling doing nothing, but that tiny bit of weight seems to help her get the idea. My instructor is currently riding her as i got hit by  a car on my other horse a few weeks ago and even that is a lot for her to contend with, its like she has to like who is riding her - or trust them. This probably all sounds completely bonkers and i have been riding very successfully for 40+ years - sigh. I would have the vet out and then do stuff yourself, she probably trusts you she has been with you quite a while. Even if you have to try and restart her again  my mare gets completely upset if new people try and do to much with her - good luck
		
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Thank you. I am so sorry about your accident. How awful! Were you badly hurt? My mare does sound similar. However, even in a light contact so the rein is danglling, once she gets it into her mind to rear, she will. She doesn't really do it with me as much. More threatens and just half rears. But I don't push her so hard. With my rider, it is repeated full vertical rears. She's a gentle rider though. Her hands are very light. I am just really hoping sorting her teeth out will make a big difference. I am plleased you kept your mare. How big did she make in the end? You were going to sell her at one time, weren't you?


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## Kezzabell2 (5 July 2017)

I haven't read all of your replies but I would suggest that if the new dentist thinks she needs a lot of work, it probably is the reason behind her issues!  Not sure if you remember but my horse started rearing after he'd been backed for 6 months!  not because of his teeth but other issues, but all of the experts missed!  we are almost 3 years on from that and I won't lie, its not been easy, it took a year to get him right and then another year to get him over the pain memory but I now have a lovely horse that I trust entirely.  He does still have the rear in him but he only uses it when he doesn't know what else today!  like panicking at pigs, and I wouldn't let him turn around and run!!  but I now know its just his way of telling me he's not okay and he's not trying to get me off, so it doesn't worry me now!

So if I was you; I'd get her teeth done and if you're not ready to ride, get someone to come out and get her started again and make sure you watch, to get comfortable that she isn't going to do it again!


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## mjcssjw2 (5 July 2017)

the car broke my leg and smacked a hole in the back of my leg that let the muscle out - doh
I was going to sell her, she is 14.3 ish but looks bigger, i will try send you a picture, not sure if i can lol. i think its the pushing that makes them go over the edge, i had real loading issues with my mare, the more i tried to make her the worse it got, she will happily throw herself over backwards if you really push her. I have to stand and wait patiently for her to be ready.
I hope the teeth issue sorts it or the vet can something that is causing it. Good luck with her


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## windand rain (5 July 2017)

Wagtail it is evident you love this mare. She is beautiful and now she has had her teeth seen to and soon have her vet checks it might be worth just letting her be for a while. not so much to forget as she may never but to realise you are not gooing to hurt her. You will need to keep on top of any health issues. Do you have someone around to go out and about with she needs to realise you are not going to give in but will accomodate her within reason. If it is temperamet then it will be difficult to cure  and you dont sound like at the moment you are in the right place for outwitting her


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## Wagtail (5 July 2017)

Kezzabell2 said:



			I haven't read all of your replies but I would suggest that if the new dentist thinks she needs a lot of work, it probably is the reason behind her issues!  Not sure if you remember but my horse started rearing after he'd been backed for 6 months!  not because of his teeth but other issues, but all of the experts missed!  we are almost 3 years on from that and I won't lie, its not been easy, it took a year to get him right and then another year to get him over the pain memory but I now have a lovely horse that I trust entirely.  He does still have the rear in him but he only uses it when he doesn't know what else today!  like panicking at pigs, and I wouldn't let him turn around and run!!  but I now know its just his way of telling me he's not okay and he's not trying to get me off, so it doesn't worry me now!

So if I was you; I'd get her teeth done and if you're not ready to ride, get someone to come out and get her started again and make sure you watch, to get comfortable that she isn't going to do it again!
		
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Thanks and well done with your boy. It is lovely when you get through so much together and gain that trust. 


mjcssjw2 said:



			the car broke my leg and smacked a hole in the back of my leg that let the muscle out - doh
I was going to sell her, she is 14.3 ish but looks bigger, i will try send you a picture, not sure if i can lol. i think its the pushing that makes them go over the edge, i had real loading issues with my mare, the more i tried to make her the worse it got, she will happily throw herself over backwards if you really push her. I have to stand and wait patiently for her to be ready.
I hope the teeth issue sorts it or the vet can something that is causing it. Good luck with her
		
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windand rain said:



			Wagtail it is evident you love this mare. She is beautiful and now she has had her teeth seen to and soon have her vet checks it might be worth just letting her be for a while. not so much to forget as she may never but to realise you are not gooing to hurt her. You will need to keep on top of any health issues. Do you have someone around to go out and about with she needs to realise you are not going to give in but will accomodate her within reason. If it is temperamet then it will be difficult to cure  and you dont sound like at the moment you are in the right place for outwitting her
		
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## gunnergundog (5 July 2017)

Unfortunately, horses can remember pain......so, even if the pain has been eliminated their 'sense of preservation' for want of a better phrase means that they continue to exhibit the previous response behaviour to their 'perceived pain' whenever they are put in a position which to them indicates pain is imminent.

You can push them through this behaviour and make them realise that all is now okay in the world.  However, you need firstly to be 2000% sure that the cause of the pain has been eliminated and secondly, to be the sort of confident/calm/positive but re-assuring rider that can take a horse through this phase and out the other side.  In my experience, such riders are few and far on the ground and I am actively looking for one now if anyone has any recommendations.

If you have any doubts on the dental front, Chris Pearce has to be your man - he has saved my neck and prevented a piece of lead being planted between the ears of a horse of mine. VERY sharp and weak youngster, progressing, albeit slowly....upgraded to medium and things started to go pear shaped. Turns out horse needed root canal work and an implant.  Three weeks later, having previously qualified,  he went to Hartpury and whilst not winning, acquitted himself more than adequately for a horse that was purchased as a hunter for an OAP.http://equinedentalclinic.co.uk/


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## Wagtail (5 July 2017)

mjcssjw2 said:



			the car broke my leg and smacked a hole in the back of my leg that let the muscle out - doh
I was going to sell her, she is 14.3 ish but looks bigger, i will try send you a picture, not sure if i can lol. i think its the pushing that makes them go over the edge, i had real loading issues with my mare, the more i tried to make her the worse it got, she will happily throw herself over backwards if you really push her. I have to stand and wait patiently for her to be ready.
I hope the teeth issue sorts it or the vet can something that is causing it. Good luck with her
		
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I am so sorry. I hope you make a good recovery.



windand rain said:



			Wagtail it is evident you love this mare. She is beautiful and now she has had her teeth seen to and soon have her vet checks it might be worth just letting her be for a while. not so much to forget as she may never but to realise you are not gooing to hurt her. You will need to keep on top of any health issues. Do you have someone around to go out and about with she needs to realise you are not going to give in but will accomodate her within reason. If it is temperamet then it will be difficult to cure  and you dont sound like at the moment you are in the right place for outwitting her
		
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Thank you. You are right, I am not in the best place right now. Several very stressful things going on at the moment which don't help.


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## Wagtail (5 July 2017)

gunnergundog said:



			Unfortunately, horses can remember pain......so, even if the pain has been eliminated their 'sense of preservation' for want of a better phrase means that they continue to exhibit the previous response behaviour to their 'perceived pain' whenever they are put in a position which to them indicates pain is imminent.

You can push them through this behaviour and make them realise that all is now okay in the world.  However, you need firstly to be 2000% sure that the cause of the pain has been eliminated and secondly, to be the sort of confident/calm/positive but re-assuring rider that can take a horse through this phase and out the other side.  In my experience, such riders are few and far on the ground and I am actively looking for one now if anyone has any recommendations.

If you have any doubts on the dental front, Chris Pearce has to be your man - he has saved my neck and prevented a piece of lead being planted between the ears of a horse of mine. VERY sharp and weak youngster, progressing, albeit slowly....upgraded to medium and things started to go pear shaped. Turns out horse needed root canal work and an implant.  Three weeks later, having previously qualified,  he went to Hartpury and whilst not winning, acquitted himself more than adequately for a horse that was purchased as a hunter for an OAP.http://equinedentalclinic.co.uk/

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Thank you. The fact that she was such a dream to back and only became difficult with the bridle makes me think there was/is a genuine pain thing going on. I will have to see how she is next week and go from there. The fact that she was much better lunging after her teeth rasp makes me slightly hopeful.


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## wyrdsister (5 July 2017)

Wagtail said:



			Thank you. Well done for dealing with such scary behaviour and it is nice to hear a KS success story. So sorry you lost her a year later. My vets have the equipment needed to xray her back and so I would do that here if need be. I wouldn't get her treated though. I have been there and failed and have seen most others who go down that path fail too. I think that if she is very happy and comfortable in herself then I would just retire her. Hopefully, it won't come to that though.
		
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In all honesty, I wouldn't do it again. I hope your issues are more easily solved.


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## Goldenstar (5 July 2017)

My horse recovered very well from KS surgery and is very well .but he's was an older horse with a lot of valuable experiance not sure I would have bothered for a young horse that knows nothing you can't find another one to know very easily .
On the biting issues I would have had the a dental trained vet in to X-ray her jaw long long ago .
I hope you find an answer and I am a bit conflicted as it's my experiance if they get to six without knowing what working six days a week is there are more often than not trouble when they have to work for a living .
I am a great one for having a work up when things are going badly but I might be tempted to try a months boot camp at home first if she where mine .
The big risk of buying an unbroken horse is that you no idea if it will suit you - she may well be perfect for someone else .


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## horselib (5 July 2017)

I am so sorry to hear you are having these problems.I followed your threads about your old mare and was so sad when you lost her .I lost my own mare about a year before and knew what it was like. I had owned my mare  for 22years(got her as a 2 year old and struggled to keep her comfortable and sound (she had a large in-operable keratoma).                                                                                                  
From your threads you seem a caring owner always trying to do the best you can for your horses so I hope you can sort this out and resolve your problems but also applaud your decision that no matter what she will stay with you. I have a couple of elderly boys (as well as 2 ridden geldings) The oldies enjoy free work work at liberty and non ridden agility , spook busting which we do for fun and is a lovely way interact with them and spend time with them as well as helping to keep them supple as well as a really good groom once or twice a week (they get brushed off at other times) There is lots to do with horses that doesn't involve riding and builds a bond of trust with them.My ridden horses do  liberty work free schooling and  agility work as well as being ridden.They enjoy it and learn loads of useful things  that help ridden work.
I would be tempted to give her some down time once you have resolved the problem.
Good luck you deserve this to be resolved .


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## Wagtail (5 July 2017)

horselib said:



			I am so sorry to hear you are having these problems.I followed your threads about your old mare and was so sad when you lost her .I lost my own mare about a year before and knew what it was like. I had owned my mare  for 22years(got her as a 2 year old and struggled to keep her comfortable and sound (she had a large in-operable keratoma).                                                                                                  
From your threads you seem a caring owner always trying to do the best you can for your horses so I hope you can sort this out and resolve your problems but also applaud your decision that no matter what she will stay with you. I have a couple of elderly boys (as well as 2 ridden geldings) The oldies enjoy free work work at liberty and non ridden agility , spook busting which we do for fun and is a lovely way interact with them and spend time with them as well as helping to keep them supple as well as a really good groom once or twice a week (they get brushed off at other times) There is lots to do with horses that doesn't involve riding and builds a bond of trust with them.My ridden horses do  liberty work free schooling and  agility work as well as being ridden.They enjoy it and learn loads of useful things  that help ridden work.
I would be tempted to give her some down time once you have resolved the problem.
Good luck you deserve this to be resolved .
		
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Thank you. Your horses sound extremely lucky and you must have haad such a bond with your old mare.


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## rachk89 (5 July 2017)

Havent read everything but I think you've probably hit the nail on the head with this one. My horse wont rear when he needs his teeth done, but even a small amount of sharpness on even one tooth will cause head shaking from him. Get that sorted and he's fine again. Vets think he is nuts because they say that shouldnt bother him as much as it does, but it does.

Maybe get xrays done of her back too to be sure its not kissing spine. I didnt think my horse would have kissing spine as he didnt have the violent reactions yours does (he would rear with other riders, but not full up rearing, just small ones), but yep kissing spine around where the back of the saddle would be on his spine. He's had treatment (not surgery) and seems to be making progress although I cant ride just yet (its killing me not being able to ride). He's walking better, he's so chilled out and happy too, become very affectionate again, he's even standing better. He used to always rest a back leg, even as soon as you halted when riding he would rest a back leg, but now he's happy to stand on both when staying still. I'm expecting him to be better for riding, or at least hoping. 

Good luck I hope you find the cause and you get your mare back.


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## Wagtail (5 July 2017)

rachk89 said:



			Havent read everything but I think you've probably hit the nail on the head with this one. My horse wont rear when he needs his teeth done, but even a small amount of sharpness on even one tooth will cause head shaking from him. Get that sorted and he's fine again. Vets think he is nuts because they say that shouldnt bother him as much as it does, but it does.

Maybe get xrays done of her back too to be sure its not kissing spine. I didnt think my horse would have kissing spine as he didnt have the violent reactions yours does (he would rear with other riders, but not full up rearing, just small ones), but yep kissing spine around where the back of the saddle would be on his spine. He's had treatment (not surgery) and seems to be making progress although I cant ride just yet (its killing me not being able to ride). He's walking better, he's so chilled out and happy too, become very affectionate again, he's even standing better. He used to always rest a back leg, even as soon as you halted when riding he would rest a back leg, but now he's happy to stand on both when staying still. I'm expecting him to be better for riding, or at least hoping. 

Good luck I hope you find the cause and you get your mare back.
		
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Thank you. I really hope your boy makes a good recovery. My mare always stands with one leg out behind or sometimes camped out with both legs behind.


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## WelshD (5 July 2017)

My little grey was very problematic early on, he had been bitted with his wolf teeth in so it was thought by many that this had led to his difficult behaviour and the hours worth of fight to get a bridle on him. Bitless didn't work and we found out why later

I insisted there was a problem with his mouth and called out vets and dentists, eventually some time down the line I called a dentist from further afield, I think she was the fifth person that came to look at the pony's teeth 

She spotted immediately that he had two front teeth missing - something that had passed me by I admit but the teeth were clearly marked on the various charts that previous professional had left which makes the mind boggle. This wasn't a problem actually but up on the side of his mouth was another missing tooth, a top tooth and the bottom one was growing up in to the gap! 
Its taken a couple of years and frequent visits to get that long tooth back to normal but the improvement in the pony started almost immediately 

Not only was the tooth painfully digging in to his gum he couldn't move his jaw freely and obviously a bitless bridle was acting on a very sore area hence why that didnt help

I am really glad that I trusted my gut instinct and kept calling people out - I have no idea why so many professionals missed his missing teeth 

Its taught me to always look in the mouth myself and take a keen interest in what's going on 

So in short if you suspect the teeth get another opinion!


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## Wagtail (5 July 2017)

WelshD said:



			My little grey was very problematic early on, he had been bitted with his wolf teeth in so it was thought by many that this had led to his difficult behaviour and the hours worth of fight to get a bridle on him. Bitless didn't work and we found out why later

I insisted there was a problem with his mouth and called out vets and dentists, eventually some time down the line I called a dentist from further afield, I think she was the fifth person that came to look at the pony's teeth 

She spotted immediately that he had two front teeth missing - something that had passed me by I admit but the teeth were clearly marked on the various charts that previous professional had left which makes the mind boggle. This wasn't a problem actually but up on the side of his mouth was another missing tooth, a top tooth and the bottom one was growing up in to the gap! 
Its taken a couple of years and frequent visits to get that long tooth back to normal but the improvement in the pony started almost immediately 

Not only was the tooth painfully digging in to his gum he couldn't move his jaw freely and obviously a bitless bridle was acting on a very sore area hence why that didnt help

I am really glad that I trusted my gut instinct and kept calling people out - I have no idea why so many professionals missed his missing teeth 

Its taught me to always look in the mouth myself and take a keen interest in what's going on 

So in short if you suspect the teeth get another opinion!
		
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Thank you. That is unbelievable. How could so many people miss it. Thank goodness you had the conviction to keep going and find his problem. Hopefully my mare's teeth are now a lot better. He was working on her for around 45 minutes and said she needed 3 times the work he would normally have to do. I understand now how a bitless bridle would probably make very little difference to the pain. I also need to find a better bit for her as my physio showed me how shallow her bit seat was. I need a very slim bit for her. I think I need to call out a professional bit person.


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## Goldenstar (6 July 2017)

Have you tried the myler comfort snaffle the very very slim one, that's my go to for fat tongued horses .
It's worth trying ,they come up big so you might need a size smaller than you would expect .
The intelligent design curved mouth snaffle ( its unjointed ) is worth a try as is the simple ported bomber bit in fact there are lots of bomber bits worth thinking about .
you to try to work out if a still mouthpiece ( eggbutt ) or a loose ring one which the horse can more is going to preferred by the horse .


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## DabDab (6 July 2017)

WelshD said:



			My little grey was very problematic early on, he had been bitted with his wolf teeth in so it was thought by many that this had led to his difficult behaviour and the hours worth of fight to get a bridle on him. Bitless didn't work and we found out why later

I insisted there was a problem with his mouth and called out vets and dentists, eventually some time down the line I called a dentist from further afield, I think she was the fifth person that came to look at the pony's teeth 

She spotted immediately that he had two front teeth missing - something that had passed me by I admit but the teeth were clearly marked on the various charts that previous professional had left which makes the mind boggle. This wasn't a problem actually but up on the side of his mouth was another missing tooth, a top tooth and the bottom one was growing up in to the gap! 
Its taken a couple of years and frequent visits to get that long tooth back to normal but the improvement in the pony started almost immediately 

Not only was the tooth painfully digging in to his gum he couldn't move his jaw freely and obviously a bitless bridle was acting on a very sore area hence why that didnt help

I am really glad that I trusted my gut instinct and kept calling people out - I have no idea why so many professionals missed his missing teeth 

Its taught me to always look in the mouth myself and take a keen interest in what's going on 

So in short if you suspect the teeth get another opinion!
		
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That's so interesting, thank you for sharing.
If you don't mind me asking, how did you find your final dentist? Was it just working your way through all those local to you or was it a specialist in difficult cases?


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## Wagtail (6 July 2017)

Goldenstar said:



			Have you tried the myler comfort snaffle the very very slim one, that's my go to for fat tongued horses .
It's worth trying ,they come up big so you might need a size smaller than you would expect .
The intelligent design curved mouth snaffle ( its unjointed ) is worth a try as is the simple ported bomber bit in fact there are lots of bomber bits worth thinking about .
you to try to work out if a still mouthpiece ( eggbutt ) or a loose ring one which the horse can more is going to preferred by the horse .
		
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Yes, I have just sold a Bombers bit as it was too large but I really do rate them and it may be the way to go. However she has hated every metal bit I have put in her mouth. She seems to only like nylon bits that are flexible, but they are too thick. I'm pretty sure, the more I think about everything that has happened in the past that the problem is with her teeth or head/jaw.


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## MotherOfChickens (6 July 2017)

the other bit to try (although agree you need another opinion on her teeth) is a peewee if you can find one. they are really good for animals with not much room in there-I had an Exmoor that wouldnt tolerate any jointed bit at all and the other one appreciates it too, they are very thin, slightly mullen and sweet iron. just an option for later on.


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## Goldenstar (6 July 2017)

Does your practice have a vet with the specialist dental training or do they have a vet they refer horses onto ?
I know exactly where I would want horse to go if she where mine but it's way to far from you but there will be someone near to you specialising in this .
Has she had a full assessment from a ACPAT trained Physio while she's in work this might be worth doing quickly as it can help lead the vet to areas of interest .
Of course non of this may help because you can never guarantee a young horse  is ever going to be a pick up and put down horse for a considerable time most youngsters and horses in early stage training do best in regular six or seven days a week type work until they are well established and if you have a youngster you need to plan for that .


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## Tiddlypom (6 July 2017)

Just following on with the poor dentistry thing. My ID/cob mare has a missing tooth in her upper left jaw, it was diagnosed at a young age as coincidentally her breeder and myself use the same excellent EDT. All good, she just needs 6 monthly dentals to keep everything tickety boo.

She was out on working livery for several years at two of the 'big name' equestrian colleges. Her then owner was paying out for her 6 monthly dental check ups from whoever the colleges have to do teeth.

She comes to me, age 10, with a new 5 stage vet pass from a top practice, and it turns out that her mouth is a disaster  The 'dentists' have made no effort to deal with the overgrowth on the opposing tooth to the diastema. My very good EDT reckons it will take 2 years to fettle it, and even then it will never be 100%. She has a wave mouth and all sorts going on, none of which should have ever been allowed to develop, it's taken years of neglect to get this bad. She's much more comfortable now, though.

Very grumpy TP, who doesn't blame the former owner at all, she thought she was paying out for a good service for her beloved mare.

Wagtail, I think with what you say about your mare standing a little oddly, I'd go for a full 'loss of performance' workup, and see what that shows. Certainly teeth could be part of the issue, but maybe not all of it? Good luck.


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## Wagtail (6 July 2017)

Tiddlypom said:



			Just following on with the poor dentistry thing. My ID/cob mare has a missing tooth in her upper left jaw, it was diagnosed at a young age as coincidentally her breeder and myself use the same excellent EDT. All good, she just needs 6 monthly dentals to keep everything tickety boo.

She was out on working livery for several years at two of the 'big name' equestrian colleges. Her then owner was paying out for her 6 monthly dental check ups from whoever the colleges have to do teeth.

She comes to me, age 10, with a new 5 stage vet pass from a top practice, and it turns out that her mouth is a disaster  The 'dentists' have made no effort to deal with the overgrowth on the opposing tooth to the diastema. My very good EDT reckons it will take 2 years to fettle it, and even then it will never be 100%. She has a wave mouth and all sorts going on, none of which should have ever been allowed to develop, it's taken years of neglect to get this bad. She's much more comfortable now, though.

Very grumpy TP, who doesn't blame the former owner at all, she thought she was paying out for a good service for her beloved mare.

Wagtail, I think with what you say about your mare standing a little oddly, I'd go for a full 'loss of performance' workup, and see what that shows. Certainly teeth could be part of the issue, but maybe not all of it? Good luck.
		
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Thank you. Yes, with teeth it is very difficult for an owner to be absolutelly sure their EDT is doing a good job. All I know is that my current dentist comes highly recommended and is booked up 3 months in advance and is both BEVA and BVDA qualified. I will see how she is next week when I start working her again. My chiro told me that most of her body tightness stems from her head. She works very closely with my veterinary practice and is also liaising with my dentist.


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## Wagtail (6 July 2017)

Goldenstar said:



			Does your practice have a vet with the specialist dental training or do they have a vet they refer horses onto ?
I know exactly where I would want horse to go if she where mine but it's way to far from you but there will be someone near to you specialising in this .
Has she had a full assessment from a ACPAT trained Physio while she's in work this might be worth doing quickly as it can help lead the vet to areas of interest .
Of course non of this may help because you can never guarantee a young horse  is ever going to be a pick up and put down horse for a considerable time most youngsters and horses in early stage training do best in regular six or seven days a week type work until they are well established and if you have a youngster you need to plan for that .
		
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I would not have a vet do my horse's teeth. I think referral is jumping the gun a bit. Let's just see what I have when I start working her next week.


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## touchstone (6 July 2017)

I really feel for you Wagtail, it can be soul destroying when you know somthings just not right.
The good thing is that you do have options, and like others Id be getting a full vet work up done, the stiffness and standing camped out could indicate something like pssm.  It would be worth it to get to the bottom of things and rule things out.

From there, given that you've got other things going, Id either turn her away or get somebody else to school for a while and perhaps try to include the odd pleasure ride or something so that she learns ridden work can be fun.

I think giving yourself a break from the stress of it all will mean you most likely will want to get back in the saddle again at some point, and if you don't then that's okay too.  I hope her issues are resolved for you.


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## Wagtail (6 July 2017)

touchstone said:



			I really feel for you Wagtail, it can be soul destroying when you know somthings just not right.
The good thing is that you do have options, and like others Id be getting a full vet work up done, the stiffness and standing camped out could indicate something like pssm.  It would be worth it to get to the bottom of things and rule things out.

From there, given that you've got other things going, Id either turn her away or get somebody else to school for a while and perhaps try to include the odd pleasure ride or something so that she learns ridden work can be fun.

I think giving yourself a break from the stress of it all will mean you most likely will want to get back in the saddle again at some point, and if you don't then that's okay too.  I hope her issues are resolved for you.
		
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Thank you. She has more energy and stamina than I have ever seen in a horse and moves incredibly well without a hint of lameness or being unlevel in any way. Basically, I think I have a horse with some discomfort somewhere but it is not compromising her in any way unridden. When ridden she moves just as well and extravagantly. But then we have this rearing problem. She has to wear over reach boots because she is short coupled and steps through better than any horse I have owned or trained and has a massive over track in trot as well as in walk. I can't see her having a problem such as PSSM. Of course, I could be wrong. I just think I need to see what happens next week when she comes back into work. I will be chatting about everything with the vet when he comes on Monday too. If he suggests further investigations, she will have them.


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## BBP (6 July 2017)

Hiya, so sorry to hear of your troubles, I remember seeing her photos when you first got her and thinking how gorgeous she was.  I can't help with the solution, but i can say that my lad was a wild ride for much of the first 6 years that I had him, since a 3yo.  He would get better and worse, and then in 2015 it all went completely to hell.  he did frighten me a bit, and I wasn't sure he was going to be rideable again.  Like you I was prepared to keep him forever as long as he was field happy, and I didn't really want to do hospital investigations as I didn't want to put him through them.  But in the end I did, and far more than I had planned.  He had a bone scan, back x-rays, muscle biopsy, head CT and scope for ulcers.  I felt horrible about doing it, but for a sharp sensitive horse he took it all in his stride and caused no fuss at all.  Im so glad I did it all as he is now the most wonderful horse to ride and deal with.  He still gets a bit hyper, that's just him, but he is bright, happy, a pleasure to hack, jump and school, and he puts the biggest smile on my face every single day.  I hope you find a similar resolution with your mare and get as much joy from her as I have with mine.


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## Wagtail (6 July 2017)

KatPT said:



			Hiya, so sorry to hear of your troubles, I remember seeing her photos when you first got her and thinking how gorgeous she was.  I can't help with the solution, but i can say that my lad was a wild ride for much of the first 6 years that I had him, since a 3yo.  He would get better and worse, and then in 2015 it all went completely to hell.  he did frighten me a bit, and I wasn't sure he was going to be rideable again.  Like you I was prepared to keep him forever as long as he was field happy, and I didn't really want to do hospital investigations as I didn't want to put him through them.  But in the end I did, and far more than I had planned.  He had a bone scan, back x-rays, muscle biopsy, head CT and scope for ulcers.  I felt horrible about doing it, but for a sharp sensitive horse he took it all in his stride and caused no fuss at all.  Im so glad I did it all as he is now the most wonderful horse to ride and deal with.  He still gets a bit hyper, that's just him, but he is bright, happy, a pleasure to hack, jump and school, and he puts the biggest smile on my face every single day.  I hope you find a similar resolution with your mare and get as much joy from her as I have with mine.
		
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I think you have done so well with him. You have been through so much together. I guess I am not so worried about the investigations, just that if anything is found such as KS, I won't have it treated in any case unless she was uncomfortable in herself, which she's not. I have had too many bad experiences with major vet hospitals in terms of invasive treatment which has not worked and the horse ends up going through it all for nothing. Was anything found with your boy? Did the treatment work or was it just your own perseverence in the end?


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## Wagtail (6 July 2017)

The reason I am so against her going in for major investigations and possible treatment, is because it would only be so I could ride her. I don't even know what she is like when she is properly riding because we haven't got that far. If I had a superstar horse that I knew I clicked with and was basicaally everything I wanted in a ridden horse, then if something went wrong, I think it would be worth trying to mend it. But when you have an unknown quantity, like my girl, why put her through it all when a) it may not work, and b) she may still have behavioural issues afterwards? Some of her rearing is definitely behavioural, because she has done it when just being led if she doesn't get to go where she wants or as quickly as she wants. So what I need to know is how much is behavioural and how much is physical. I started this thread just asking for experience of similar bad behaviour caused by dental issues. I appreciate all the other suggestions, and these will be addressed if her issues persist, but I was looking for other dental experiences in particular. It is also very good to hear all the stories of horses coming good in the end, whether it be due to a tooth problem or otherwise.


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## DabDab (6 July 2017)

Fwiw Wagtail, I would have exactly the same approach as you.


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## BBP (6 July 2017)

Wagtail said:



			I think you have done so well with him. You have been through so much together. I guess I am not so worried about the investigations, just that if anything is found such as KS, I won't have it treated in any case unless she was uncomfortable in herself, which she's not. I have had too many bad experiences with major vet hospitals in terms of invasive treatment which has not worked and the horse ends up going through it all for nothing. Was anything found with your boy? Did the treatment work or was it just your own perseverence in the end?
		
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We found an awful lot actually, which made me feel a bit better about having it done.  I knew with him that he wasn't happy just in the field, and I wanted to make sure that if i did keep him just as a pet that he wasn't in pain for that, which sounds like it maybe doesn't apply to yours as she seems ok when not under pressure.

With him we found: Bone scan found sacroiliac injury from a fall in the field which I treated with steroids and then more importantly had Rob Jackson horseback vet out to treat him.  Head CT showed nothing but helped rule out brain tumour (turned out that behaviours was due to terrible allergies/headaches, which i now treat with antihistamines and a lot of consideration as to what i ask of him when pollen is bad).  Muscle biopsy showed he has Recurrent Exertional Rhabdomyolysis (RER) which is a calcium release issue linked to stress which has helped me to understand his behaviour a lot better and so I manage him better, I have stopped trying to push him out of his comfort zone and just accept we will never hack alone.  Scoping showed ulcers near the pylorus in the glandular region, which treatment was very successful for and I now understand when he is showing signs of gut discomfort (I treat this just with more hay/chaff).

I also as part of my own efforts switched to a flexible tree saddle which did wonders for his movement and showed me how badly his previous saddle fitted him, despite being checked routinely by one of the best saddlers in the country.  And I switched to a bitless bridle, which just seemed to relax him as he had never been happy in the mouth with a bit.  I don't compete at dressage so I don't need a bit.  When his hayfever is bad I realised that the rope sidepull bridle also hurt him as his facial nerves get so sensitised, so this year I have started having the bridle on for safety but using a neckrope to 'steer' him, to take any pressure off his nose.  That has worked brilliantly so far.


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## ester (6 July 2017)

If she moves so well etc it does all point more to the head end, so maybe some xrays of just that end would be illumiating?


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## MotherOfChickens (6 July 2017)

Wagtail said:



			I would not have a vet do my horse's teeth.
		
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why not out of interest? maybe I've been lucky but I've never had a problem using a vet for teeth although I choose ones that have additional training-I also had a vet-EDT for a while which was the best of both worlds. seems to me people have as many problmes using EDTs as vets going on what I've been told/read. 

I am not one for swearing by ACPAT physios fwiw, I had two-one of which is very famous in her field who could barely be bothered to see the horse move and only ever used a machine on him. The other, her protege, was more thorough but missed the horse was bilaterally lame behind so if I were to go the workup route, I'd go straight to vet.


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## Wagtail (6 July 2017)

KatPT said:



			We found an awful lot actually, which made me feel a bit better about having it done.  I knew with him that he wasn't happy just in the field, and I wanted to make sure that if i did keep him just as a pet that he wasn't in pain for that, which sounds like it maybe doesn't apply to yours as she seems ok when not under pressure.

With him we found: Bone scan found sacroiliac injury from a fall in the field which I treated with steroids and then more importantly had Rob Jackson horseback vet out to treat him.  Head CT showed nothing but helped rule out brain tumour (turned out that behaviours was due to terrible allergies/headaches, which i now treat with antihistamines and a lot of consideration as to what i ask of him when pollen is bad).  Muscle biopsy showed he has Recurrent Exertional Rhabdomyolysis (RER) which is a calcium release issue linked to stress which has helped me to understand his behaviour a lot better and so I manage him better, I have stopped trying to push him out of his comfort zone and just accept we will never hack alone.  Scoping showed ulcers near the pylorus in the glandular region, which treatment was very successful for and I now understand when he is showing signs of gut discomfort (I treat this just with more hay/chaff).

I also as part of my own efforts switched to a flexible tree saddle which did wonders for his movement and showed me how badly his previous saddle fitted him, despite being checked routinely by one of the best saddlers in the country.  And I switched to a bitless bridle, which just seemed to relax him as he had never been happy in the mouth with a bit.  I don't compete at dressage so I don't need a bit.  When his hayfever is bad I realised that the rope sidepull bridle also hurt him as his facial nerves get so sensitised, so this year I have started having the bridle on for safety but using a neckrope to 'steer' him, to take any pressure off his nose.  That has worked brilliantly so far.
		
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Wow. I really applaud your dedication. It's amazing to hear that you are still able to enjoy him as a ridden horse but that is testament to your empathy and love for this horse.


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## rachk89 (6 July 2017)

Wagtail said:



			I think you have done so well with him. You have been through so much together. I guess I am not so worried about the investigations, just that if anything is found such as KS, I won't have it treated in any case unless she was uncomfortable in herself, which she's not. I have had too many bad experiences with major vet hospitals in terms of invasive treatment which has not worked and the horse ends up going through it all for nothing. Was anything found with your boy? Did the treatment work or was it just your own perseverence in the end?
		
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It might not be surgery for kissing spine and even then it's only keyhole surgery. My horse has only been given a drug and it's helped him already. They try to avoid surgery if they can now since the drug tends to work.


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## Alibear (6 July 2017)

Have you looked at the nathe bits, they're rubber, flexible and pretty thin.


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## Wagtail (6 July 2017)

ester said:



			If she moves so well etc it does all point more to the head end, so maybe some xrays of just that end would be illumiating?
		
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Yes, but lets just see how she is when I work her next week first. We haven't yet seen whether the fact that her teeth were in a real state and that has now been sorted makes a difference. The dentist did 3 times the amount of work he would normally need to on a horse. He wants to hear how she goes next week.



MotherOfChickens said:



			why not out of interest? maybe I've been lucky but I've never had a problem using a vet for teeth although I choose ones that have additional training-I also had a vet-EDT for a while which was the best of both worlds. seems to me people have as many problmes using EDTs as vets going on what I've been told/read. 

I am not one for swearing by ACPAT physios fwiw, I had two-one of which is very famous in her field who could barely be bothered to see the horse move and only ever used a machine on him. The other, her protege, was more thorough but missed the horse was bilaterally lame behind so if I were to go the workup route, I'd go straight to vet.
		
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I think they all vary in their ability. I have had very poor physios and very good ones. My chiro was here for one and a half hours. She watched her move both led and on the lunge before and after treatment. She has worked wonders on a horse here that would become unridable if her visits were spaced too far apart and would be fine agaain after treatment.

Regarding vets and teeth. Most vets will admit that they hate doing horses' teeth. We do have one at our practice who specialises in teeth, but she is the one vet there who I have no confidence in due to errors made in the past. Dentists, on the other hand, so long as they are properly qualified and not like the one I used for the previous two years, are far more practiced at doing horses' teeth. It is their specialism. In addition, my old mare, who was always good to have her teeth done by the dentist, became terrified after once being done by the vet (not this practice), and always had to be sedated from then on. The vet really hurt her and she whacked me hard in the knee with the dental gag, the pain causing me to fall to the gound, then reared and knocked her poll on the beam. No wonder she hated having her teeth done since then. I had the vet to remove my current mare's wolf teeth, however.


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## Goldenstar (6 July 2017)

Wagtail said:



			I would not have a vet do my horse's teeth. I think referral is jumping the gun a bit. Let's just see what I have when I start working her next week.
		
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The thing is you are always one step behind ,because an EDT can't sedate the horse and these problematic horses need the very very back of their mouths checking carefully and all the research shows that horse need sedation for this .
I always have my horses first dental with me done at the vets in the stocks with a good whack of sedation you can then get their necks extended in a way you just can't at home .
My vets now have a camera for checking at the back and then you really can assess what's what .
My horse J had a horrible start in his working life because of the teeth he was born with although my vets quickly knew where the problem was it was not possible to diagnose it and X-rays looked normal it took a MRI scan to identify the issue .
Once they removed to tooth and sorted the jaw he was a much happier boy.
I learnt a lot about mouths from that experiance I never hang about now I want to understand what's in there from the start and the vet surgery is by the best place to get a good look .


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## Goldenstar (6 July 2017)

Wagtail said:



			Yes, but lets just see how she is when I work her next week first. We haven't yet seen whether the fact that her teeth were in a real state and that has now been sorted makes a difference. The dentist did 3 times the amount of work he would normally need to on a horse. He wants to hear how she goes next week.



I think they all vary in their ability. I have had very poor physios and very good ones. My chiro was here for one and a half hours. She watched her move both led and on the lunge before and after treatment. She has worked wonders on a horse here that would become unridable if her visits were spaced too far apart and would be fine agaain after treatment.

Regarding vets and teeth. Most vets will admit that they hate doing horses' teeth. We do have one at our practice who specialises in teeth, but she is the one vet there who I have no confidence in due to errors made in the past. Dentists, on the other hand, so long as they are properly qualified and not like the one I used for the previous two years, are far more practiced at doing horses' teeth. It is their specialism. In addition, my old mare, who was always good to have her teeth done by the dentist, became terrified after once being done by the vet (not this practice), and always had to be sedated from then on. The vet really hurt her and she whacked me hard in the knee with the dental gag, the pain causing me to fall to the gound, then reared and knocked her poll on the beam. No wonder she hated having her teeth done since then. I had the vet to remove my current mare's wolf teeth, however.
		
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Well my vets don't hate doing horses teeth and are highly qualified to do so .


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## milliepops (6 July 2017)

Goldenstar said:



			Well my vets don't hate doing horses teeth and are highly qualified to do so .
		
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yes, we have a very good dental specialist at my practice and I've always found them to be very satisfactory.  I have previously used EDTs but gone back to the vets now for this treatment. My difficult horse always has sedation so that we can have a thorough examination, she had some tiny tiny unerupted teeth removed last year which made quite a difference to her.


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## Northern (6 July 2017)

Goldenstar said:



			The thing is you are always one step behind ,because an EDT can't sedate the horse and these problematic horses need the very very back of their mouths checking carefully and all the research shows that horse need sedation for this .
I always have my horses first dental with me done at the vets in the stocks with a good whack of sedation you can then get their necks extended in a way you just can't at home .
My vets now have a camera for checking at the back and then you really can assess what's what .
My horse J had a horrible start in his working life because of the teeth he was born with although my vets quickly knew where the problem was it was not possible to diagnose it and X-rays looked normal it took a MRI scan to identify the issue .
Once they removed to tooth and sorted the jaw he was a much happier boy.
I learnt a lot about mouths from that experiance I never hang about now I want to understand what's in there from the start and the vet surgery is by the best place to get a good look .
		
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This is precisely why I always use a vet to do my horses teeth. Yes they need to sedate, and yes they are more expensive, but to me it's worth it to get the best picture  of what is happening in their (huge!) mouths. My vet has additional dental qualifications and training, so I trust her to find any issues.


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## Goldenstar (6 July 2017)

Forging that's interesting forging was one of the issues we had with J it took me a while to work out he was not raising the whithers because he was blocking the head to try and reduce the pain in his mouth .
Forging is usually a training issue but from the day I got on J after his op he never forged again .


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## WelshD (6 July 2017)

DabDab said:



			That's so interesting, thank you for sharing.
If you don't mind me asking, how did you find your final dentist? Was it just working your way through all those local to you or was it a specialist in difficult cases?
		
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I found the dentist that goes to the Household Cavalry to do some of the horses there, I figured they would be pretty choosy over who they have! She is wonderful 

regarding the dentist v vet argument - I really think its like any profession you get some good and some bad and then with horses there will be people who the horse cooperates with better, those who make it a nice (ish) experience etc I personally wouldn't blindly 'tunnel vision' the situation until I found someone who gets the best results for my horse. Same with barefoot trimmers v farriers - some people will refuse to use one or the other and to me that excludes 50% (for example) of your possibilities immediately


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## ester (6 July 2017)

The oroscopes (cameras for the back seem really useful) 

the thing is if you don't work her up you cannot be sure she doesn't have anything that is going ot get worse stood in a field, and you then have a horse stood in the field with no education so you will have be prepared to PTS should anything happen to me. 
If there is something wrong that once corrected would mean she can make a reasonable ridden animal either for you or for someone else I would think that guarantees her future as much as anything. It's part of buying youngsters, things may go wrong and need investgating before you know if you really like them or not. And it is why I wouldn't by a youngster as I would want to know if they were the one for me.


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## Wagtail (6 July 2017)

Right, so I have a newly broken in youngster with a rearing problem. She is not lame and moves very nicely indeed both in the field, on the lunge and with a rider. I try to find out what is wrong and get dentist, chiro, saddler and vet. I find she has very rough teeth and immediately after having them done looked more comfortable on the lunge (no more head shaking). Chiro then came the following day, but apparently I should not wait until the chiro has advised me to work her. Instead, I should be sending her to an equine hospital for a full work up and have a vet look at her teeth too. Sorry, but this is quite frankly silly. I don't know a vet who would refer her to a vet hospital without any evidence whatsoever to indicate that she needs it. We have not had a chance to see if the dental work has done the trick yet. Any insurer would want basic checks to be carried out first, which is exactly what I am doing. I am surprised by some of the replies from people who I thought were experienced. Whatever happened to patience and methodical investigation?


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## ester (6 July 2017)

So crack on and find out if it's done then job then.


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## Meowy Catkin (6 July 2017)

I think that people have picked up on some of your comments eg your suspicions about her hormones/having her on chasteberry and the fact that you suspect that she has something physical going on.




			Having said all that, this mare is the most strong willed horse I have come across. My instinct is that she does have a physical issue that is causing her some amount of discomfort and that this has triggered some of the behaviour. Hopefully it is a simple thing such as teeth
		
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We have seen so many times on this forum (and IRL) that the owner's instincts can be oh so right, even when numerous other people think the owner was wrong. It then turns out that the issue was just tricky to find and/or subtle.

Definitely give her time to see if the dental work has helped her (I really hope that it does), but if it doesn't I think that the odds are that you are still right and that there is an issue and it just hasn't been located yet.


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## Wagtail (6 July 2017)

Faracat said:



			I think that people have picked up on some of your comments eg your suspicions about her hormones/having her on chasteberry and the fact that you suspect that she has something physical going on.



We have seen so many times on this forum (and IRL) that the owner's instincts can be oh so right, even when numerous other people think the owner was wrong. It then turns out that the issue was just tricky to find and/or subtle.

Definitely give her time to see if the dental work has helped her (I really hope that it does), but if it doesn't I think that the odds are that you are still right and that there is an issue and it just hasn't been located yet.
		
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Exactly. I do think she has a physical issue. I am inclined to think it is in the head area. Hopefully just her teeth. This was backed up by the dentis and the chiro. Chiro was adamant she had absolutely no pain issues anywhere in her body. She had some tight areas but they were not sore. Indeed this is what I found myself before calling her out. I could not get a sensitive reaction anywhere on her body, but felt she was tight in certain areas. So, logic tells me see what we have now her teeth are done. Chiro coming back next Wednesday, as is saddler. Vet on Monday.


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## Leo Walker (6 July 2017)

Wagtail said:



			Chiro was adamant she had absolutely no pain issues anywhere in her body.QUOTE]

So was the physio who worked on the 2012 Olympic horses, who treated my sisters horse who was diagnosed shortly afterwards with horrendous kissing spines. She was fine 99% of the time, but her go to in hand and under saddle, was rearing as well.
		
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## Tiddlypom (6 July 2017)

The mare has an established rearing habit. I think that folk are pushing for a loss of performance work up (by a good equine vet) because they don't want you, or anyone else, to end up in a wheelchair.

The vets initially believed my cob's erratic behaviour to be behavioural, he was tanking off in canter. The work up showed bilateral hind PSD.


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## Wagtail (6 July 2017)

DabDab said:



			Fwiw Wagtail, I would have exactly the same approach as you.
		
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Thank you.


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## Goldenstar (6 July 2017)

Leo Walker said:





Wagtail said:



			Chiro was adamant she had absolutely no pain issues anywhere in her body.QUOTE]

So was the physio who worked on the 2012 Olympic horses, who treated my sisters horse who was diagnosed shortly afterwards with horrendous kissing spines. She was fine 99% of the time, but her go to in hand and under saddle, was rearing as well.
		
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Until a vet has worked them up I just don't think you ever rule out pain .
I think Physio and other therapists can help you rule in pain but they can never really rule it out .
Even a vet work up cannot be a 100% guarantee that the horse has no problem but it's about the best you can do .
However I do think some horses starting work need a considerable time in work to settle into an acceptable work pattern and some horses are difficult and need skill and determination to get into work and not all these horses will have pain just some of them .
A chiro has found pain in this horse at the head /top of neck .
The horse is rearing .
This needs expert investigation by a suitable vet .
		
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## Wagtail (6 July 2017)

Leo Walker said:





Wagtail said:



			Chiro was adamant she had absolutely no pain issues anywhere in her body.QUOTE]

So was the physio who worked on the 2012 Olympic horses, who treated my sisters horse who was diagnosed shortly afterwards with horrendous kissing spines. She was fine 99% of the time, but her go to in hand and under saddle, was rearing as well.
		
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I've had exactly the same with my KS horse. All I was saying was stating fact. The chiro was adamant there was no pain in her body, just tightness. That is just one person's opinion. So far, I have a trainer and a chiro saying she does not have a pain issue. Trainer does think the teeth thing could be the cause, however, now that she knows how bad they were. She did say that was one of the checks she would have done. All I have are opinions. I am ruling out one thing at a time. This thread was simply asking about dental issues. It's gone off topic, somewhat.
		
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## Wagtail (6 July 2017)

Tiddlypom said:



			The mare has an established rearing habit. I think that folk are pushing for a loss of performance work up (by a good equine vet) because they don't want you, or anyone else, to end up in a wheelchair.

The vets initially believed my cob's erratic behaviour to be behavioural, he was tanking off in canter. The work up showed bilateral hind PSD.
		
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I just think it is getting ahead of itself, this thread. If I come back next week and see she is still the same, then we move on to vet investigations. I've had experience of PSD too, in several horses. And one of them was a rearer. It is in the back of my mind as are a lot of other things. However, I want to tackle one thing at a time and as I have never had a problem with teeth before, not to this extent, I was asking the H&H community in case anyone else had. 

I have to say, however, that people don't know my mare, and I have never met one that is quite so confident, and self assured. Since a three year old she has been head of the herd here, despite being the youngest and the smallest. SOME of her behaviour is due to her personality. She's an opinionated mare. However, I do believe that there has also been a trigger related to work which also sets it off. She is not one to put up with even the smallest amount of discomfort. Not that I believe any horse should have to, just that some are very stoic and would not show such a strong objection.


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## ihatework (6 July 2017)

Well hopefully it's just the teeth.
Even if it is it doesn't sound as though she is matched to what you need out of a horse. I'd be formulating a plan for her future, if she is an intelligent busy type a life in the field might not be ideal. Although I suppose she knows not a lot else to date


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## Wagtail (6 July 2017)

ihatework said:



			Well hopefully it's just the teeth.
Even if it is it doesn't sound as though she is matched to what you need out of a horse. I'd be formulating a plan for her future, if she is an intelligent busy type a life in the field might not be ideal. Although I suppose she knows not a lot else to date
		
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She is in her element. I do a lot of other stuff with her such as liberty training. She loves it. Will trot alongside me, jump small fences, line herself up at the mounting block on command. She comes away from her herd and calls me whenever she wants some attention. She watches us in the house. A very happy horse that would be very happy to continue doing the same. I don't believe horses are happier working, but I do believe some need more stimulation than just being left in a field. That wouldn't happen to her.

I agree that she may not be suited to what I want in a ridden horse at this stage in my life. If I don't get back to what I used to be in terms of confidence and love of riding, and I feel she is too much for me now, then I always have the option of finding a younger, braver jockey (as I used to be), so long as I was sure her issues had been sorted, that is. If I do not manage to sort out her problems then I would not want to pass her on.


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## Goldenstar (6 July 2017)

On you go ,do what you want .
You have been having problems with this young horse for far to long .
I gave advice against my better judgement but honestly you think I am silly to say it not normal to have horses that won't accept bitting and rearing is unusual in young horses unless people have been mucking them about and letting them get blurred about the rules about what's a horse and what's a human .

I would have had it investigated and sorted long ago but then I keep horses to do things with not agonise about it all .


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## Asha (6 July 2017)

Wagtail, fwiw I think you are doing the right thing. You've had her teeth done, now see if its made a difference. You've paid for a professional to sort her teeth, hes given you his opinion, why wouldn't you do what he suggests 

If she hasn't improved then get a full lameness check done.( xrays would be a must for me )

She sounds very similar to one of mine. She reared a couple of times as a 4 YO, I got everything done, teeth, saddle, physio, and lameness check. All xrayed. Showed nothing. So we turned her away for the winter. Come the spring she was sent to a local pro, with full disclosure of what happened. She came back into work, and after a couple of weeks she was back to her sweet disposition. Hasn't reared or even thought about it since, and has had plenty of opportunity. Shes been scared, she planted going down a step, shes gone to new arenas/competitions, and nothing. We put it down to the fact She just wasn't mature enough / ready for work. 

I hope you get to the bottom of it


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## Wagtail (6 July 2017)

Goldenstar said:



			On you go ,do what you want .
You have been having problems with this young horse for far to long .
I gave advice against my better judgement but honestly you think I am silly to say it not normal to have horses that won't accept bitting and rearing is unusual in young horses unless people have been mucking them about and letting them get blurred about the rules about what's a horse and what's a human .

I would have had it investigated and sorted long ago but then I keep horses to do things with not agonise about it all .
		
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Well I know you are the most perfect horse owner Goldenstar as you keep on bragging about it on here. I couldn't possibly live up to your exceptional standards. There you go. My poor, poor horse.


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## Wagtail (6 July 2017)

Asha said:



			Wagtail, fwiw I think you are doing the right thing. You've had her teeth done, now see if its made a difference. You've paid for a professional to sort her teeth, hes given you his opinion, why wouldn't you do what he suggests 

If she hasn't improved then get a full lameness check done.( xrays would be a must for me )

She sounds very similar to one of mine. She reared a couple of times as a 4 YO, I got everything done, teeth, saddle, physio, and lameness check. All xrayed. Showed nothing. So we turned her away for the winter. Come the spring she was sent to a local pro, with full disclosure of what happened. She came back into work, and after a couple of weeks she was back to her sweet disposition. Hasn't reared or even thought about it since, and has had plenty of opportunity. Shes been scared, she planted going down a step, shes gone to new arenas/competitions, and nothing. We put it down to the fact She just wasn't mature enough / ready for work. 

I hope you get to the bottom of it
		
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Thank you Asha. I am so pleased you got your horse sorted. Sometimes they just need a bit of patience and as you did, turning away for a bit. Unfortunately my mare has had long enough off through no fault of her own. I am hoping we are on the right track now with the teeth and then if not sorted, vet.


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## starfish8 (6 July 2017)

I may get shot down for this... but why shouldn't it be? I've had toothache that has made me want to pull them out with pliers, so why shouldn't a horse show an extreme reaction when it gets too much for them to bear.  It could well be a combination of factors as others are saying, but if there are other things that on their own can make a horse explode (for want of a better word) from pain, why not their teeth. 

I hope you get to the bottom of it.  For what it's worth, I would also look at it one potential cause at a time - see how she goes post dental work and if no improvement then look at what else it could be.


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## Wagtail (6 July 2017)

starfish8 said:



			I may get shot down for this... but why shouldn't it be? I've had toothache that has made me want to pull them out with pliers, so why shouldn't a horse show an extreme reaction when it gets too much for them to bear.  It could well be a combination of factors as others are saying, but if there are other things that on their own can make a horse explode (for want of a better word) from pain, why not their teeth. 

I hope you get to the bottom of it.  For what it's worth, I would also look at it one potential cause at a time - see how she goes post dental work and if no improvement then look at what else it could be.
		
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Thank you. I don't see what is wrong with a methodical approach and doing all the basic checks, one at a time. That's the only way to pinpoint a problem. Honestly, if I said to my vet I wanted her sending in for a full lameness workup, xRays, bone scan etc, he would think me hysterical. I think my insurers would tell me to go for a hike too. However, if I sort out all the obvious things, and there's still a problem, then that's the time to decide if I want to investigate further or give up and let her be.


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## budatiger (6 July 2017)

Years ago my then 6 year old became uncharacteristically difficult under saddle. He was stiff as a board, resistant in every way, then started headshaking so violently that his front legs would be off the ground and his whole body was sore. He went for a work up, bone scan etc. Nothing was found, so it was declared behavioural.  Now this is the sweetest, kindest horse, but he was quite an anxious soul so he went for 6 weeks behavioural therapy!  In effect re-started. He progressed well. Several months after his return home he had severe sinusitis.  Months of antibiotics later he had a head X-ray. He had a tooth root infection of an upper pre-molar so severe it had gone into the bone and he had to be operated on under GA.  He never head shook again, even when the large wound healed. Nothing has been visible on routine dentals, but this would have been going on for a long time. Just a thought.  Good luck.


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## milliepops (6 July 2017)

Wagtail said:



			Thank you. I don't see what is wrong with a methodical approach and doing all the basic checks, one at a time. That's the only way to pinpoint a problem. Honestly, if I said to my vet I wanted her sending in for a full lameness workup, xRays, bone scan etc, he would think me hysterical. I think my insurers would tell me to go for a hike too. However, if I sort out all the obvious things, and there's still a problem, then that's the time to decide if I want to investigate further or give up and let her be.
		
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what the insurers think is possibly irrelevant at this stage... iirc you've been posting about this mare's bitting problems and difficult reactions for at least a year? I'd have run out of time to start a claim on my policy as it's not a new onset


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## Apercrumbie (6 July 2017)

Something to remember is that she will remember the pain of her teeth (and her reaction isn't unsurprising given how bad they were) and therefore her behaviour won't necessarily immediately improve. Part of the problem with rearers is that it becomes their conditioned response - the moment they don't like something, they're up. It takes a long time to train them out of it and requires a lot of patience and clinging on.


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## Wagtail (6 July 2017)

budatiger said:



			Years ago my then 6 year old became uncharacteristically difficult under saddle. He was stiff as a board, resistant in every way, then started headshaking so violently that his front legs would be off the ground and his whole body was sore. He went for a work up, bone scan etc. Nothing was found, so it was declared behavioural.  Now this is the sweetest, kindest horse, but he was quite an anxious soul so he went for 6 weeks behavioural therapy!  In effect re-started. He progressed well. Several months after his return home he had severe sinusitis.  Months of antibiotics later he had a head X-ray. He had a tooth root infection of an upper pre-molar so severe it had gone into the bone and he had to be operated on under GA.  He never head shook again, even when the large wound healed. Nothing has been visible on routine dentals, but this would have been going on for a long time. Just a thought.  Good luck.
		
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Thank you. That is really helpful. I am pleased you got to the bottom of it. My mare's initial reaction to any pressure on the bit was to head shake. And like your boy her feet would lift off the ground. She would almost knock over the handler but I never had any rearing under saddle until she came back from being ridden away. However, that is not to say that I wouldn't have if I had done the riding away myself. I think the extra pressure has caused the rearing. She is a horse who's 'go to' response is to rear. I have never owned a rearer before. Others that I have ridden that have a rearing problem, I have refused to ride again until their problem was found and solved. This time it is my horse and therefore my problem. I am being told it is her attitude and she needs pushing through it. I am going against others telling me this because I do think there is a pain or discomfort trigger. Your answer was the type of thing I was looking for regarding teeth. Thank you.


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## Wagtail (6 July 2017)

milliepops said:



			what the insurers think is possibly irrelevant at this stage... iirc you've been posting about this mare's bitting problems and difficult reactions for at least a year? I'd have run out of time to start a claim on my policy as it's not a new onset 

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No, I don't think so because lots of horses have bitting problems which are totally unrelated to there being any physical issue. My old mare was very difficult to bit too. I rode her in a hackamore and trained her up to medium level dressage in the hackamore. It took me two years to find a bit that suited her. She had violent head shaking and head tossing. Once I found the right bit she was fine. My horse's full brother was exactly the same. It took them a very long time to find the right bit. She has a very small mouth, shallow bit seat and fleshy tongue. Bitting problems are very common in these types. They are also very common in youngsters being broken in.

ETA: Also, she has only started rearing under saddle in the last few weeks. Rearing before that was very, very occasional (like 3 times in as many years) and unrelated to the bit. Loads of horses don't like bits. The only reason I want to use one at all is for dressage.


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## Wagtail (6 July 2017)

apercrumbie said:



			Something to remember is that she will remember the pain of her teeth (and her reaction isn't unsurprising given how bad they were) and therefore her behaviour won't necessarily immediately improve. Part of the problem with rearers is that it becomes their conditioned response - the moment they don't like something, they're up. It takes a long time to train them out of it and requires a lot of patience and clinging on.
		
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Indeed. You make a very good point. Thank you.


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## Goldenstar (6 July 2017)

Wagtail said:



			Well I know you are the most perfect horse owner Goldenstar as you keep on bragging about it on here. I couldn't possibly live up to your exceptional standards. There you go. My poor, poor horse.
		
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Since I very rarely ever start a thread I fail to see what you're talking about .
And but since you mentain standards yes I would be ashamed to have posted what you have posted ,this bitting issue is long standing and nothing has been done to get to the bottom of it so the horse is now rearing ( why would it not no body has got to the bottom of the first issue ) .


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## rachk89 (6 July 2017)

To be honest though I haven't seen the op post that they have tried riding again and the horse is still the same. The horse might be cured now but until she rides the mare we don't know. No point in taking a horse to a vet for a lameness work up it may not need. Ride first, if still the same move on to plan b.

To be honest though you can do lameness work ups all you want, unless the horse shows the pain you're screwed.  Mine never showed any pain when the vets checked him or lameness. He only showed it through his behaviour, but with no proof of the pain everyone thought he's trying it on. And he was only misbehaving in the arena, fields and hacks were fine. But he eventually showed thepain and we find out its kissing spine. Never shown an ounce of pain from his back before, but suddenly even brushing your finger on his back made him sore.

If the chiro worked the horse out of the tension and she didn't get worse then it's probably just muscle tension. It's when you remove the tension and suddenly they are lame that you have a problem. That's what my physio told me at least while she did my horse and he became worse after she worked the tension out.


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## Wagtail (6 July 2017)

Goldenstar said:



			Since I very rarely ever start a thread I fail to see what you're talking about .
And but since you mentain standards yes I would be ashamed to have posted what you have posted ,this bitting issue is long standing and nothing has been done to get to the bottom of it so the horse is now rearing ( why would it not no body has got to the bottom of the first issue ) .
		
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Oh come on GS you are one of the most judgemental and superior people on here. Yes, you often give good advice but boy are you condescending in your tone. My mare probably had a bit in her mouth fewer than fifteen times before being sent away. I just worked around her issues by getting on with the education I could do without a bit. That meant backing her bitless. Many people do this as a matter of course. I don't believe in forcing an issue with a horse. Not accepting a particular bit is not indicative of their being a problem, and if you think it is, then you have not started many horses. You have mainly big horses with big roomy mouths. I doubt you've ever started a horse with a head and mouth conformation like my mare. I knew there would be a problem finding the right bit just by looking at her. But hey, if I should have shipped her off to Rossdales or somewhere similar as soon as she showed any objection to a piece of tack, then my bad.


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## Wagtail (6 July 2017)

rachk89 said:



			To be honest though I haven't seen the op post that they have tried riding again and the horse is still the same. The horse might be cured now but until she rides the mare we don't know. No point in taking a horse to a vet for a lameness work up it may not need. Ride first, if still the same move on to plan b.

To be honest though you can do lameness work ups all you want, unless the horse shows the pain you're screwed.  Mine never showed any pain when the vets checked him or lameness. He only showed it through his behaviour, but with no proof of the pain everyone thought he's trying it on. And he was only misbehaving in the arena, fields and hacks were fine. But he eventually showed thepain and we find out its kissing spine. Never shown an ounce of pain from his back before, but suddenly even brushing your finger on his back made him sore.

If the chiro worked the horse out of the tension and she didn't get worse then it's probably just muscle tension. It's when you remove the tension and suddenly they are lame that you have a problem. That's what my physio told me at least while she did my horse and he became worse after she worked the tension out.
		
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Thank you rachk89. This is what I keep trying to say. I need to wait until next week before working her because the chiro did a lot of work on her head and said she needed the time off. The muscle tension was gone by the time she'd been treated and the chiro suspected it was related to the head. I need to see how she is when I next work her before doing any more investigations.


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## canteron (6 July 2017)

Hi Wagtail, I haven't read all the responses, but here are my thoughts for what they are worth!!  It could all so easily be teeth related - after all we are miserable, tense and grumpy when our teeth are bad (or is that just me???).  If it was mine, I wouldn't even think about actually riding her for ages, the priorities would be to make her enjoy being around humans and to enjoy learning and gain trust and confidence in you.  To this end, I would just chill and try teaching her a few fun tricks, do groundwork, but always make it fun and work with her, not against her.  Maybe then one day she will let you know that it is OK to get on and you can just take it from there.

I have posted a few times about the fact that for the average person, my old horse who could laugh at jokes was much more impressive that all the rosettes we won!!  You tube, and various websites have lots of ideas (101 horse tricks, etc). I am also lucky that I am working with an amazing teacher who specialises in groundwork which relates to ridden work - and making it enjoyable for the horse, I mix this with clicker as to my mind that speeds up the learning process but I guess any primarily positive reinforcement system would work.

I know you are a great horseperson, but I truly believe that the time you spend 'playing' with horses is the most valuable time and makes everything else so much easier for all.


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## fredflop (6 July 2017)

Well as has been said... see what's she's like when you can ride her again. Saddler is also a good idea, although it's probably not related, if your going to go through insurance, no doubt they will want to know if it's been checked.

I'd probably also get a different therapy practitioner out as well, just to check. I've had very good results from equine touch, although I've only used one person for it. 

If it was my horse and nothing improved I would have in to the vet for a work up. I've had a horse with KS, whom the physio and chiro couldn't find an issue with, and didn't have any problems with movement or stride length


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## Wagtail (6 July 2017)

canteron said:



			Hi Wagtail, I haven't read all the responses, but here are my thoughts for what they are worth!!  It could all so easily be teeth related - after all we are miserable, tense and grumpy when our teeth are bad (or is that just me???).  If it was mine, I wouldn't even think about actually riding her for ages, the priorities would be to make her enjoy being around humans and to enjoy learning and gain trust and confidence in you.  To this end, I would just chill and try teaching her a few fun tricks, do groundwork, but always make it fun and work with her, not against her.  Maybe then one day she will let you know that it is OK to get on and you can just take it from there.

I have posted a few times about the fact that for the average person, my old horse who could laugh at jokes was much more impressive that all the rosettes we won!!  You tube, and various websites have lots of ideas (101 horse tricks, etc). I am also lucky that I am working with an amazing teacher who specialises in groundwork which relates to ridden work - and making it enjoyable for the horse, I mix this with clicker as to my mind that speeds up the learning process but I guess any primarily positive reinforcement system would work.

I know you are a great horseperson, but I truly believe that the time you spend 'playing' with horses is the most valuable time and makes everything else so much easier for all.
		
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Thank you. That is a very kind reply. I am no longer the rider I used to be before my illness, but still enjoy doing groundwork and liberty training. My mare loves clicker training and learning new things. I am fine riding other horses, even if they throw in a trick or two, but my mare has scared me. She is a sweet natured thing, even if she is a dominant mare, she has never tried to hurt me, so I don't buy it that she's trying it on. I do need to see if the teeth rasping has made a difference however, so that I know whether more investigations are indicated.


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## Goldenstar (6 July 2017)

Do put me on user ignore then .
I really think all this drama is way overblown and can't for the life of me work out why you bought an unbroken horse .


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## Wagtail (6 July 2017)

Goldenstar said:



			Do put me on user ignore then .
I really think all this drama is way overblown and can't for the life of me work out why you bought an unbroken horse .
		
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Well I wouldn't be worrying yourself about that.


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## canteron (6 July 2017)

Goldenstar said:



			Do put me on user ignore then .
I really think all this drama is way overblown and can't for the life of me work out why you bought an unbroken horse .
		
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Oh, I think I am glad I haven't read all this post!


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## Cecile (6 July 2017)

Pooh is the answer!  Over the next few days check the pooh any long fibre's in the pooh means there is possibly a residue problem with the teeth

I drive my husband insane when out walking with the dog, if I see any horse pooh I can predict if the horse that done it has wonderful teeth or not

Just call me old fashioned but pooh can tell you so much about what is going on with teeth, I am fixated with pooh picking and will happily break any to see if dry, too green or find any long fibre's,
you should see me if I get one in with worms I've been known to pick them out put them in a drinking mug and drive them to the vets.  My vet is even more disgusting he collects worms in a jar and they were kept on the shelf in the vets WC 

Take my word for it pooh is the answer, it answers a multitude of sins and problems


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## Wagtail (6 July 2017)

fredflop said:



			Well as has been said... see what's she's like when you can ride her again. Saddler is also a good idea, although it's probably not related, if your going to go through insurance, no doubt they will want to know if it's been checked.

I'd probably also get a different therapy practitioner out as well, just to check. I've had very good results from equine touch, although I've only used one person for it. 

If it was my horse and nothing improved I would have in to the vet for a work up. I've had a horse with KS, whom the physio and chiro couldn't find an issue with, and didn't have any problems with movement or stride length
		
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Thank you. The saddler came only 3 weeks ago but I'm having her checked again.


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## Wagtail (6 July 2017)

Cecile said:



			Pooh is the answer!  Over the next few days check the pooh any long fibre's in the pooh means there is possibly a residue problem with the teeth

I drive my husband insane when out walking with the dog, if I see any horse pooh I can predict if the horse that done it has wonderful teeth or not

Just call me old fashioned but pooh can tell you so much about what is going on with teeth, I am fixated with pooh picking and will happily break any to see if dry, too green or find any long fibre's,
you should see me if I get one in with worms I've been known to pick them out put them in a drinking mug and drive them to the vets.  My vet is even more disgusting he collects worms in a jar and they were kept on the shelf in the vets WC 

Take my word for it pooh is the answer, it answers a multitude of sins and problems
		
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Lol, well you may be right there!


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## mynutmeg (6 July 2017)

Wagtail said:



			Yes, I have just sold a Bombers bit as it was too large but I really do rate them and it may be the way to go. However she has hated every metal bit I have put in her mouth. She seems to only like nylon bits that are flexible, but they are too thick. I'm pretty sure, the more I think about everything that has happened in the past that the problem is with her teeth or head/jaw.
		
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Just a thought but what about trying her with a multi-jointed bit like a waterford if they come in a thinner form than a nylon bit? I know they are considered to be severe but if use carefully with light hands then that shouldn't be an issue. It would give the felxibility seh seems to like but possibly with a narrower mouth piece? 

Good luck when you do get back on her and hopefully this has solved the extra problem over her being a stroppy mare


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## molar roller (7 July 2017)

Sorry to hear that story. A lot of horses have riding problems due to teeth problems and teeth could cause all the issues you are describing. 
 As you know wolf teeth are problem for youngsters but sometimes vets or unexperienced dental technicians missed ''blind wolf teeth'' .....also hooks,supernumary teeth, misplaced teeth and  bad positioned TM joint are negative factors. even sometimes long canines are source of pain (obviously %99 of mares don't have) 
For example please search on the googe as ''caudal hook horse teeth'' and check the pics, if a horse has a caudal hook problem he/she might shake his/her head to up meaninglessly while cantering or trotting,  if it is a kind of showjumper that situation is also annoying for rider cos the horse heads up like a duck while coming close to fences.
I have to say that if a dental tech or vet  does not use any electric tools can't float it properly. frankly some of practioners don't care about it even  have any electric tool. Trust me thousands of international level horses have that problem in Euro territory because of ignorant dental practioners. Unfortunately half knowledge is more dangerous than ignorance.
BTW if your physio says that very tight throughout her body and especially her head and jaw, might have a TMJ problem too. Good luck!


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## Wagtail (7 July 2017)

molar roller said:



			Sorry to hear that story. A lot of horses have riding problems due to teeth problems and teeth could cause all the issues you are describing. 
 As you know wolf teeth are problem for youngsters but sometimes vets or unexperienced dental technicians missed ''blind wolf teeth'' .....also hooks,supernumary teeth, misplaced teeth and  bad positioned TM joint are negative factors. even sometimes long canines are source of pain (obviously %99 of mares don't have) 
For example please search on the googe as ''caudal hook horse teeth'' and check the pics, if a horse has a caudal hook problem he/she might shake his/her head to up meaninglessly while cantering or trotting,  if it is a kind of showjumper that situation is also annoying for rider cos the horse heads up like a duck while coming close to fences.
I have to say that if a dental tech or vet  does not use any electric tools can't float it properly. frankly some of practioners don't care about it even  have any electric tool. Trust me thousands of international level horses have that problem in Euro territory because of ignorant dental practioners. Unfortunately half knowledge is more dangerous than ignorance.
BTW if your physio says that very tight throughout her body and especially her head and jaw, might have a TMJ problem too. Good luck!
		
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Thank you. That is a very helpful answer. I did wonder about TMJ. I hope that is not her problem. Hopefully the dentist has already addressed the issues, but if not, that's another thing to consider.


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## Wagtail (7 July 2017)

mynutmeg said:



			Just a thought but what about trying her with a multi-jointed bit like a waterford if they come in a thinner form than a nylon bit? I know they are considered to be severe but if use carefully with light hands then that shouldn't be an issue. It would give the felxibility seh seems to like but possibly with a narrower mouth piece? 

Good luck when you do get back on her and hopefully this has solved the extra problem over her being a stroppy mare
		
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Thank you. It seemed that before being ridden away, her episodes were due to being in season, but now they are all of the time when ridden. On the ground, she's a dream. I'm not keen on waterfords, personally, although I know they have their uses for strong horses that go against the bit. However, I think one would push her over the edge. The bumps and the fact that it's metal. She hates metal.


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## touchstone (7 July 2017)

If you can get hold of one then I'd really recommend trying a leather bit, I've seen difficult to bit horses transformed by one and they tend to keep the mouth moist whereas plastic or rubber can be drying which can cause issues.


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## Wagtail (7 July 2017)

touchstone said:



			If you can get hold of one then I'd really recommend trying a leather bit, I've seen difficult to bit horses transformed by one and they tend to keep the mouth moist whereas plastic or rubber can be drying which can cause issues.
		
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Thank you. I did try and find one at one time, but gave up. The ones I found were very thick. I will keep looking though.


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## Casey76 (7 July 2017)

If you're able and willing to pay out, you could try a poponici bit: https://bitspecialist.com/loose-ring-poponcini.html  The mouthpiece is very soft and flexible - much more so than a happymouth for example

Trust also have a range of hard and soft plastic bits with varying ports: https://bitspecialist.com/brands/trust.html?p=1

Beris, again, have a range of hard plastic and leather bits: https://bitspecialist.com/brands/beris.html

I used to like the Bombers bits, but they have been bringing out some absolutely horrific mouthpieces (to cater for the Western and Eventing market) and I now wont buy one on principle, but they have some nice simple snaffles with interesting mouth shapes if you wanted to try metal again.  Bombers are sweet iron, so have a different flavor than plain stainless, titanium or aluminium.


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## budatiger (7 July 2017)

Try a Bombers or the Hilary Vernon shaped bits for tongue relief, with latex wrapped around the mouth. Another one of mine was unhappy in a snaffle and conventional bridle. I changed to a Micklem and the HV Mullen mouth eggbut which is very shaped and instantly had a much happier horse.  He had a tiny mouth (4.75") with massive tongue, low pallet and short mouth. What size bit do you need? I have the HV and a loose ring BB in 5".


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## Wagtail (7 July 2017)

Casey76 said:



			If you're able and willing to pay out, you could try a poponici bit: https://bitspecialist.com/loose-ring-poponcini.html  The mouthpiece is very soft and flexible - much more so than a happymouth for example

Trust also have a range of hard and soft plastic bits with varying ports: https://bitspecialist.com/brands/trust.html?p=1

Beris, again, have a range of hard plastic and leather bits: https://bitspecialist.com/brands/beris.html

I used to like the Bombers bits, but they have been bringing out some absolutely horrific mouthpieces (to cater for the Western and Eventing market) and I now wont buy one on principle, but they have some nice simple snaffles with interesting mouth shapes if you wanted to try metal again.  Bombers are sweet iron, so have a different flavor than plain stainless, titanium or aluminium.
		
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budatiger said:



			Try a Bombers or the Hilary Vernon shaped bits for tongue relief, with latex wrapped around the mouth. Another one of mine was unhappy in a snaffle and conventional bridle. I changed to a Micklem and the HV Mullen mouth eggbut which is very shaped and instantly had a much happier horse.  He had a tiny mouth (4.75") with massive tongue, low pallet and short mouth. What size bit do you need? I have the HV and a loose ring BB in 5".
		
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Thank you both for the suggestions. I will go and have a look at them now. She's and awkward size between 4.5 and 5 inches.


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## windand rain (7 July 2017)

does she long rein from a bit it might be worth trying it from a head collar with a bit in (once she has had time to heal) then moving on to the bit it should tell you if it is the bit, her head or her back that are the issue. If she doesnt it might be worth teaching her before getting back on


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## Wagtail (7 July 2017)

windand rain said:



			does she long rein from a bit it might be worth trying it from a head collar with a bit in (once she has had time to heal) then moving on to the bit it should tell you if it is the bit, her head or her back that are the issue. If she doesnt it might be worth teaching her before getting back on
		
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Yes, that's a good idea. She has long reined fine bitless before, but run away when bitted.


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## mynutmeg (7 July 2017)

Wagtail said:



			Thank you. It seemed that before being ridden away, her episodes were due to being in season, but now they are all of the time when ridden. On the ground, she's a dream. I'm not keen on waterfords, personally, although I know they have their uses for strong horses that go against the bit. However, I think one would push her over the edge. The bumps and the fact that it's metal. She hates metal.
		
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Fair enough - I've never used them myself but had a friend with an ex-racer who reared at anything and she found him good in it. You know your horse and know if anything of our ideas would be suitable for her 

Once her teeth are sorted so there's no sharp edges to dig into her cheeks then bitless may be the way to go unless you want to compete in dressage (this is assuming it's not a trigeminal nerve type thing  )
I'm a fan of the nose rope (http://www.noseropes.co.uk/products-prices/) as simple and cheap and i find it effective


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## Wagtail (7 July 2017)

mynutmeg said:



			Fair enough - I've never used them myself but had a friend with an ex-racer who reared at anything and she found him good in it. You know your horse and know if anything of our ideas would be suitable for her 

Once her teeth are sorted so there's no sharp edges to dig into her cheeks then bitless may be the way to go unless you want to compete in dressage (this is assuming it's not a trigeminal nerve type thing  )
I'm a fan of the nose rope (http://www.noseropes.co.uk/products-prices/) as simple and cheap and i find it effective 

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Thank you. I'll take a look.


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## Wagtail (9 July 2017)

Now I have the full report back from the chiro I have a bit more direction, I think. The main problem is around her hyoid with Dysfunction left side:  post temporalis, diagastric & massetter muscle hypertonicity, Marked L masseyter spasm. After this was worked on and released somewhat, the range of movement and tightness in her body was markedly improved. I will speak to the vet about this tomorrow with a view to getting him back for head x-rays should she not be improved when I start working her again this week.


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## mynutmeg (9 July 2017)

sounds like a good way forwards


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## googol (19 July 2017)

How are you getting on with her now wagtail?


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## Wagtail (19 July 2017)

googol said:



			How are you getting on with her now wagtail?
		
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We have had the saddler out and the vet. Saddle fits fine although she was nervous having it on but saddler said whatever was causing her problems, it wasn't the saddle. The vet is adamant there is nothing physical wrong with her but has agreed to come and do a full work up should we continue to have problems. So, I have had a new trainer to see her who has experience of KS horses and many other physical issues. She thought KS when talking to me, but not after working with her. She thinks it is nappiness and confusion over what is expected of her. We are taking her right back to basics with long reining and lungeing with a rider on board. Apart from one rear during the first session on the long reins, we have had no other rearing, including when ridden. We will have to see what she's like once we remove the lunge and all she has is the rider.


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## Goldenstar (19 July 2017)

How can a horse where a chiro has found that amount of issues on its head be said to have nothing physically wrong with her particularly when the horse is showing performance problems with the bit .
Time for a  problems with performance type specalist vet on the job .


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## Wagtail (19 July 2017)

Goldenstar said:



			How can a horse where a chiro has found that amount of issues on its head be said to have nothing physically wrong with her particularly when the horse is showing performance problems with the bit .
Time for a  problems with performance type specalist vet on the job .
		
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You may be right, GS. However, the chiro came back last Wednesday and said all the issues around her head were gone (may even have been from the dental work the day before and having the gag on for so long), and her whole body was looser. At the moment I have my vet, chiro, and two trainers telling me it isn't physical. They all know far more than I do. In addition, she has been working beautifully on the long reins. Lovely big bouncy stride and loose. I will see how she is once we get the rider on her without the lunge, and if there's still an issue, it will be investigated fully.

ETA. She has been changed into a Myler comfort snaffle and is far more accepting of it. No issue with contact now at all.


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## Goldenstar (19 July 2017)

Yes it may well be the dental .
I have two who I give Danilon to before and after dentals .
I insist that the gag is let down every five minutes to rest their jaws ,on J we did three .
I also try to schedule a roultine Physio visit for just after the dental .


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## Asha (19 July 2017)

Wagtail said:



			You may be right, GS. However, the chiro came back last Wednesday and said all the issues around her head were gone (may even have been from the dental work the day before and having the gag on for so long), and her whole body was looser. At the moment I have my vet, chiro, and two trainers telling me it isn't physical. They all know far more than I do. In addition, she has been working beautifully on the long reins. Lovely big bouncy stride and loose. I will see how she is once we get the rider on her without the lunge, and if there's still an issue, it will be investigated fully.

ETA. She has been changed into a Myler comfort snaffle and is far more accepting of it. No issue with contact now at all.
		
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sounds really positive Wagtail. Fingers crossed the next stage goes as well x


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## Wagtail (19 July 2017)

Asha said:



			sounds really positive Wagtail. Fingers crossed the next stage goes as well x
		
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Thank you. I'm not counting my chickens yet, but it's looking a little more promising.


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## Goldenstar (19 July 2017)

I am not sure the system the people backing her used , but I think the riding on the lunge stage is not done for as long as it was when I was doing lots of backing .
We where lunged on them until they where very good to the voice and understood the leg .
They where also taught to stop as soon as we pulled the neck strap and we taught them whoa whoa and the neckstrap as the emergency stop .
We often did not have them fully stopping from the rein when we rode them away but they knew the voice aids and we always had nanny horses out with them .
I think you taking the right approach do you have access to a horse you can lead her from we also did this a lot with slightly difficult ones it got them seeing the world without adding being ridden into the mix .


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## Wagtail (19 July 2017)

Goldenstar said:



			I am not sure the system the people backing her used , but I think the riding on the lunge stage is not done for as long as it was when I was doing lots of backing .
We where lunged on them until they where very good to the voice and understood the leg .
They where also taught to stop as soon as we pulled the neck strap and we taught them whoa whoa and the neckstrap as the emergency stop .
We often did not have them fully stopping from the rein when we rode them away but they knew the voice aids and we always had nanny horses out with them .
I think you taking the right approach do you have access to a horse you can lead her from we also did this a lot with slightly difficult ones it got them seeing the world without adding being ridden into the mix .
		
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I don't think she was actually long reined when she went away and am not sure how long she was ridden on the lunge. I know she was ridden in side reins a lot and was apparently good out hacking with another horse. I will get her hacking around the 1 mile track we have around the yard as soon as I think she is safe and understands the rider fully. But the only other ridden horse here can spin and plant when hacking so I wouldn't lead her from him. I will ride her with some one on foot to begin with. She's not bothered about leaving the other horses.


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## MotherOfChickens (19 July 2017)

she was ridden in side reins, on the lunge?


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## Wagtail (19 July 2017)

MotherOfChickens said:



			she was ridden in side reins, on the lunge?
		
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No. Side reins without the lunge I was told. I was advised to do the same but I didn't like the idea of it as I like to feel the mouth without interference and there is no quick release.


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## MotherOfChickens (19 July 2017)

Wagtail said:



			No. Side reins without the lunge I was told. I was advised to do the same but I didn't like the idea of it as I like to feel the mouth without interference and there is no quick release.
		
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good grief, I know people do it but imo its spectacularly dangerous with a green horse imho. I've seen a horse stumble, freak because he couldnt find his legs due to the sidereins and go over and they werent tight either. how much were you able to watch them with her?


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## ILuvCowparsely (19 July 2017)

Wagtail said:



			My, I have had some issues with my lovely mare. I am looking for reassurance really. My confidence has been shattered and I don't even know if I ever want to ride again. Basically had lots of rearing issues and in the end have just got off and decided I've had enough of riding horses. She can just be a big pet. I'm not scared of any other horses and still ride them, but have come to the realisation, that if I can't ride my own, I don't want to do this anymore. I don't want to end up in a wheel chair. This was supposed to be fun! Anyway, long story short horse horse hates any kind of bit contact and will rear vertically repeatedly. Can be made to work through it with a strong rider but I just am not prepared to do it. Have just changed dentists and had her teeth done. Apparently they were awful. Needed loads doing. Looked like they'd never been done ever! I've also had a physio and she says she has no major pain issues but she was very tight throughout her body and especially her head and jaw. She was also tight through lumbar region. I had changed dentists when my old one retired a couple of years ago but never really thought the new dentist was any good as he hardly seemed to do anything. So pleased I changed to another one now!

Anyway, my question is this. Has anyone had such major ridden problems due to teeth, and have the problems been solved when the teeth have been sorted? I feel I have lost all my love of riding since losing my old mare four years ago, and have really just been going through the motions, and really don't know if I ever want to get back on board. Since I had a year off due to illness, my brave pants seem to have done a runner! I think I just need hope that my mare (who could be so talented) could be the horse I always thought she would be. But I've just about had enough.
		
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Have you had the vet up and pull bloods?? my pony was a nutcase last week with the sharer  bucking trying to buzz off.  So I took her from the young girl lunged her etc, and I lost count of the rears and bucks and broncs she did.  Never saw her like that.  She has got leaking hind gut/albumin and has an oedema underneath so could be discomfort or related to her condition.

I lost my horse 5 years ago and know how your feeling so well,  why not get the vet out and do a full MOT on her to try get to the bottom of this situation


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## Wagtail (19 July 2017)

MotherOfChickens said:



			good grief, I know people do it but imo its spectacularly dangerous with a green horse imho. I've seen a horse stumble, freak because he couldnt find his legs due to the sidereins and go over and they werent tight either. how much were you able to watch them with her?
		
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Not at all, unfortunately. At the end I went to watch her being ridden and then to ride her myself. I did go and see her most days though to say hello and give her a groom.


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## Northern (19 July 2017)

Sounds promising Wagtail. Do keep us updated, would be interested to hear how she progresses!


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## Goldenstar (19 July 2017)

Wagtail if you want to use side reins while you ride her on the lunge use them high up the saddle, very long and attach them using a leather boot lace , these will break easily in an emergency .
 I would definatly train this type of horse to stop from a neck strap use a thin martingale strap not a stirrup leather they work better .


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## SusieT (19 July 2017)

A young horse, ridden in side reins now rearing - I think you have your answer there tbh - the trainers have gone for quick fixes all along and the horse has not been properly introduced- Glad there is a new trainer on this horses case .


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## rachk89 (19 July 2017)

Hope you are onto fixing her. 

To be fair though, I had several vets, a saddler and a physio routinely out to check my horse for over a year and nothing physical was ever found until 2 months ago when he finally showed us and it was kissing spine. 

Hopefully you horse has more sense than mine. None of the professionals can work out why or how he hid it for so long.


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## Micropony (19 July 2017)

Wagtail said:



			No. Side reins without the lunge I was told. I was advised to do the same but I didn't like the idea of it as I like to feel the mouth without interference and there is no quick release.
		
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Sorry to hijack, but why would they do that? I have never started a horse myself, but I have seen a fair few very nice ones started very successfully, and it never involved that. What is the objective/thought process?


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## Wagtail (20 July 2017)

Micropony said:



			Sorry to hijack, but why would they do that? I have never started a horse myself, but I have seen a fair few very nice ones started very successfully, and it never involved that. What is the objective/thought process?
		
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I have started 4 others before my mare and also retrained several off the track. I was always taught from a young age that it was dangerous to ride with side reins, so would not do it either. The thinking behind it was that she was so argumentative with the bit that the side reins allowed the rider to concentrate on just riding her forwards. It is obviously something which has worked well for them as they have successfully started hundreds of youngsters over the years. I do think that my mare was exceptionally tricky and they probably wouldn't do it with every horse.


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## Pinkvboots (20 July 2017)

I would think using a bungee would be a better alternative to side reins they have much more give so just kind of sit there and give a more elastic feel rather than a fixed side rein, I personally wouldn't even use them to lunge I think they are horrible things for any horse let alone a youngster and I certainly wouldn't ride in them.


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## Wagtail (20 July 2017)

rachk89 said:



			Hope you are onto fixing her. 

To be fair though, I had several vets, a saddler and a physio routinely out to check my horse for over a year and nothing physical was ever found until 2 months ago when he finally showed us and it was kissing spine. 

Hopefully you horse has more sense than mine. None of the professionals can work out why or how he hid it for so long.
		
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Good luck with him. My gelding was just the same. He would react to the saddle being girthed but once you were on, he was fine. Two vets and two physios all said his back was fine, but he had really bad kissing spine which was only discovered because I insisted they xray him.


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## Goldenstar (20 July 2017)

Horses can hide back pain really well .
If you think KS X-ray the back it's not that expensive and it gives you the answer .
This is where insurance is a problem people with insured horses are cautious about doing that because do that and you risk exclusions at renewal .


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## rachk89 (20 July 2017)

Wagtail said:



			Good luck with him. My gelding was just the same. He would react to the saddle being girthed but once you were on, he was fine. Two vets and two physios all said his back was fine, but he had really bad kissing spine which was only discovered because I insisted they xray him.
		
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Mine did the same. And he only bucked/reared with other riders on but not me. He went from one day being an absolute star with me, no issues, bit lazy, but he can be and it was a hot day. The next day, different rider, bucking, rearing, spinning etc he would not do anything. Showed pain the next day and that was the first time he ever showed pain. Bizarre horses.


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## Micropony (20 July 2017)

Wagtail said:



			I have started 4 others before my mare and also retrained several off the track. I was always taught from a young age that it was dangerous to ride with side reins, so would not do it either. The thinking behind it was that she was so argumentative with the bit that the side reins allowed the rider to concentrate on just riding her forwards. It is obviously something which has worked well for them as they have successfully started hundreds of youngsters over the years. I do think that my mare was exceptionally tricky and they probably wouldn't do it with every horse.
		
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Ah thank you for explaining.


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## Wagtail (30 July 2017)

Just a quick update. She is now totally foot perfect on the long reins. No napping, working beautifully on both reins. She has accepted the Myler comfort snaffle and is now still in the head. We've had a rider on board a couple of times and no rearing. I am not counting my chickens yet, but overall am feeling a lot more positive.


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## D66 (30 July 2017)

very pleased to hear.


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## Evie91 (30 July 2017)

Good to hear things are improving. Long may it continue


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## canteron (30 July 2017)

Fingers crossed


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## windand rain (30 July 2017)

Excellent news I knew you could sort some of it and am delighted the long reining worked for you


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## Wagtail (30 July 2017)

Thanks, everyone. I hadn't really persevered with the long reining in the past as she really wasn't keen on the reins around her hind legs. But having a super trainer work with her in the stable first, something that hadn't occurred to me to do, as I'd never had many problems with other youngsters introducing the reins, made all the difference.


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## rachk89 (30 July 2017)

Awesome hope it all continues to go well.


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## eggs (30 July 2017)

Sounds promising.  Onwards and upwards with her


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## Goldenstar (30 July 2017)

Sounds good keep at it .


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## mynutmeg (30 July 2017)

Wagtail said:



			Just a quick update. She is now totally foot perfect on the long reins. No napping, working beautifully on both reins. She has accepted the Myler comfort snaffle and is now still in the head. We've had a rider on board a couple of times and no rearing. I am not counting my chickens yet, but overall am feeling a lot more positive.
		
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yay - so pleased for you


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## Asha (31 July 2017)

Great news, long may it continue !


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## Wagtail (31 July 2017)

rachk89 said:



			Awesome hope it all continues to go well. 

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eggs said:



			Sounds promising.  Onwards and upwards with her
		
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Goldenstar said:



			Sounds good keep at it .
		
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mynutmeg said:



			yay - so pleased for you   

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Asha said:



			Great news, long may it continue !
		
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Thank you.

She is now working well with a rider in walk and trot and hacking around the track on her own. However, we have a strange problem in canter where she kicks out shortly after passing the row of arena mirrors. It's not a buck to unseat the rider, it's either an ouch, or a reaction to the horse in the mirrors. The fact that it occurs on both reins just after she passes the mirrors makes me think it's the latter but we will have to see if it continues once she is more used to cantering past the mirrors. I am going to check what she does on the long reins as I haven't cantered her along the fence with the mirrors on the long reins. I have just cantered her in a circle. Will have to get my running shoes on!


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## Annagain (31 July 2017)

Wagtail said:



			Thank you.

She is now working well with a rider in walk and trot and hacking around the track on her own. However, we have a strange problem in canter where she kicks out shortly after passing the row of arena mirrors. It's not a buck to unseat the rider, it's either an ouch, or a reaction to the horse in the mirrors. The fact that it occurs on both reins just after she passes the mirrors makes me think it's the latter but we will have to see if it continues once she is more used to cantering past the mirrors. I am going to check what she does on the long reins as I haven't cantered her along the fence with the mirrors on the long reins. I have just cantered her in a circle. Will have to get my running shoes on!
		
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Great news that she's progressing so well. Can you try her in a different arena without mirrors?


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## Wagtail (31 July 2017)

annagain said:



			Great news that she's progressing so well. Can you try her in a different arena without mirrors?
		
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Unfortunately I don't have transport at the moment. My disco died. Will be getting a new one but not for a few weeks.


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## Annagain (31 July 2017)

Wagtail said:



			Unfortunately I don't have transport at the moment. My disco died. Will be getting a new one but not for a few weeks.
		
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How big are they? Could you cover them up with well secured bed sheets or something? Maybe on a non-windy day, or call it spook busting!


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## Wagtail (31 July 2017)

annagain said:



			How big are they? Could you cover them up with well secured bed sheets or something? Maybe on a non-windy day, or call it spook busting!
		
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I don't think I could do that. My husband suggested it too. When the rider did a downwards transition before the point at which she normally did the kick out and restarted the canter just after, she was fine, so definitely related to just passing the mirrors. Of course, that is not to say there isn't a pain issue as I find horses tend to nap in the same spot each time when they have a pain issue as well as when it's just a reaction to something such as the horse in the mirrors. My trainer thinks I overthink things with my mare and that she picks up on my uncertainty and worry about her. I think she's probably right.


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## Wagtail (7 October 2017)

I thought I'd update on this thread as things have got a whole lot better. My girl is working nicely and has not reared for many weeks. The biggest change came when I changed her into a different saddle as it became clear that she did not like the shoulder restriction of the forward cut Pessoa. I am now the only person riding her. I have also switched to a normal cavesson bridle rather than the micklem which she hated. She is in a myler bit which she is also much happier in. In addition, I feed her 'Stroppy Mare' which seems to have made her less opinionated generally. She's full of gusto and now seems to be enjoying her ridden work. Things are still not perfect on the saddle front as everything seems to move forward on her. I have my saddler coming with a load of saddles to try and to check the one she is currently being ridden in and appears to like. Fingers crossed, we will get something to fit her perfectly soon.


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## ycbm (7 October 2017)

I'm so pleased you're riding her, it's been a long journey for you and your lovely little mare. What a promising update


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## Goldenstar (7 October 2017)

Good news lots of fun ahead .


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## Pearlsasinger (7 October 2017)

That sounds more than promising!


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## Wagtail (7 October 2017)

ycbm said:



			I'm so pleased you're riding her, it's been a long journey for you and your lovely little mare. What a promising update 

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Goldenstar said:



			Good news lots of fun ahead .
		
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Pearlsasinger said:



			That sounds more than promising!
		
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Thank you! Yes, it's been a struggle. I had lost my love of riding after losing my last mare and then everything seemed to be going wrong with my current girl and I thought I would just give up. I didn't want to just ride other people's horses. So now I am just so happy and really enjoying riding again. My girl is not the easiest, but I'd be bored if she was. She is the right amount of challenge and attitude for me. I just love her.


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## ester (7 October 2017)

great news  cally needed a different tree to that in the standard ideal vsd and some clever gusseting but that improved her slippage issues massively so hopefully you can find something that suits .


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## Micropony (7 October 2017)

Oh that's really great news, thanks for updating x


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## windand rain (7 October 2017)

Brilliant so pleased for you


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## Peregrine Falcon (7 October 2017)

I was only thinking of you the other day and wondering how you were getting on.  Pleased to read the update.  Hope that you manage to get the saddle issue sorted.


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