# Rugging - how did the horses of my youth survive ....



## eggs (15 December 2014)

Having been reading the numerous threads on rugging I have to wonder how so many horses survived in the old days when we only had a leaky old canvas New Zealand with a thin blanket lining for the field and a jute rug with a folded blanket for the stable.

The answer of course is that they did survive without the benefit of modern materials, neck covers and layers of heavyweight combos.


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## Fools Motto (15 December 2014)

We're a nation of softies! Top comfort (we assume) for our horses. May come with more knowledge (or maybe less?!) than 'we' had before? And, it all seems much less time consuming, which to me could be classified as being on the lazy side.
Personally, I haven't yet completely caught up with modern day 'stuff', can't understand all the sheepskin, and too many rugs with various covers with various weights to choose from!! (don't get me started on tack!)


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## JoJo_ (15 December 2014)

I think one saddle used to fit all back then too.


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## ihatework (15 December 2014)

Survived they did!

But I for one am glad to see the back of those God damn awful canvas new zealands, that is for sure


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## Vodkagirly (15 December 2014)

I sometimes wonder too.
I think poor horses in the winter (and less laminitis in the summer) was more normal though.
I do remember my skinny tb wearing 2 rugs and having a sheepskin numnah 24 years ago though.


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## hibshobby (15 December 2014)

And no-one had heard of ulcers. And leather was brown, dressage was for "foreigners" and bridles had a snaffle, pelham or it was a double bridle.


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## friesian76 (15 December 2014)

I know, rember new zealands, basically a rectangle of canvas sort of lined with sheepskin, it weighed a ton when wet and took forever to dry. No pleats or wrap round bits and neck covers, what were they!!!. But our horses survived. My friend used to use a duvet under her tb rugs.  Love the modern rugs thou. Nothing better than tucking your horse up for the night in his pjs. &#9786;


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## JoJo_ (15 December 2014)

I went to college with a girl who put about 8 rugs on her horse and this was only 8yrs ago! No joke. I looked after said horse for a weekend while she went home and had a list of what order the rugs went on. She was a stocky TB and the girl didnt want her growing a winter coat as she needed sedating to clip. The layers included a newmarket fleece, an actual duvet, many stable rugs with a heavy on top. When stabled she had an anti cast roller on top of all that! The poor mare was twice the size by the time she was ready for bed!


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## Agatha (15 December 2014)

I was visiting a friends yard last winter and there was a Shetland out in the field - so many rugs on, I couldnt believe it !!  I counted five at least !!!!  I remember the old NZ's too - they weighed a ton when wet and solid when cold and frosty !!! And Jute rugs - I bet lots of people wouldnt have a clue what they were !


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## marmalade76 (15 December 2014)

One good thing about the rugs of today is being able to clip out and still have them living out


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## eggs (15 December 2014)

Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of modern rugs - they are much easier to handle and must be more comfortable for our horses.  I'm just stunned at the weight that people think their horses need to survive winter (I'm not including medically compromised horses).


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## cptrayes (15 December 2014)

I couldn't believe reading of people putting 800g of fill on their horses either, even if it's fully clipped. If they need that, surely they are being fed wrong?

I read a thread last week that horrified me too, about horses living their lives with tail bags on.

What are we doing to these creatures who are never allowed to whisk their tails or feel the breeze in their coat or the sun on their backs?


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## Jo1987 (15 December 2014)

Couldn't stand the old canvas rugs - they were just going out of fashion when my dad bought me my first pony and he came with an ancient one, complete with leather breast strap! I gave it back to the riding school we got him from and he had a nice new weatherbeeta. No more rubbed withers surprisingly... 
I do love the new rugs, but I think fleece neck cuffs, 3 surcingles and elasticated polls are a step too far!


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## eggs (15 December 2014)

cptrayes said:



			I couldn't believe reading of people putting 800g of fill on their horses either, even if it's fully clipped. If they need that, surely they are being fed wrong?

I read a thread last week that horrified me too, about horses living their lives with tail bags on.

What are we doing to these creatures who are never allowed to whisk their tails or feel the breeze in their coat or the sun on their backs?
		
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CPT we must both come from the same school of horse care.  I was also gob smacked at the concept of a horse having to wear a tail bag just to keep it clean.

My fully clipped warmbloods all had their rugs off for a fair few hours over the weekend as it was so lovely and sunny.  I'm lucky in that I keep them at home so it is easy for me to pop out and put their rugs back on but they all enjoyed a good scratch and a roll.


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## Moya_999 (15 December 2014)

cptrayes said:



			I couldn't believe reading of people putting 800g of fill on their horses either, even if it's fully clipped. If they need that, surely they are being fed wrong?

I read a thread last week that horrified me too, about horses living their lives with tail bags on.

What are we doing to these creatures who are never allowed to whisk their tails or feel the breeze in their coat or the sun on their backs?
		
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 I have just started re using my tail bags- he hacks in it and goes in the field with it - his tail is white and its easier than putting harsh astringents to get it white.

TBH I don't see the issue - I once tried to break the GBOR with the longest tail sadly I gave up at 8ft 2 long and trimed it back to his fetlocks,


To do with rugs on their backs not feeling the sun are you againts fly rugs then? as no body in their right mind would leave a NZ rug on their horse on a  warm or hot summers day. 


some horses need to wear fly rugs on in summer.

Some horses are heavily shown to high standard so its only justified they want to protect the tail from getting ripped in fencing - other horses chewing it anything like that.


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## cptrayes (15 December 2014)

eggs said:



			CPT we must both come from the same school of horse care.  I was also gob smacked at the concept of a horse having to wear a tail bag just to keep it clean.

My fully clipped warmbloods all had their rugs off for a fair few hours over the weekend as it was so lovely and sunny.  I'm lucky in that I keep them at home so it is easy for me to pop out and put their rugs back on but they all enjoyed a good scratch and a roll.
		
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I thought it was sad :'( 

I'm like you, lucky enough to have them at home. Fatty cob has only just been allowed a  lightweight rug at night and he has a belly/bib clip and lives in a barn overnight.  I asked him, and he said that he would prefer to have ad lib haylage and go commando than to have his food reduced  

I use 220g rugs on thinner skinned horses and if the weather gets colder I just feed them more. I wonder how many of these horse being wrapped up to within an inch of their lives are really cold, and if so how often that's because the hay net is empty by midnight.


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## cptrayes (15 December 2014)

Moya_999 said:



			I have just started re using my tail bags- he hacks in it and goes in the field with it - his tail is white and its easier than putting harsh astringents to get it white.
		
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Easier. Exactly. Why can't you leave it yellow?




			To do with rugs on their backs not feeling the sun are you againts fly rugs then? as no body in their right mind would leave a NZ rug on their horse on a  warm or hot summers day.
		
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But I do see horses with turnout rugs on on warm sunny days. 

I don't use fly rugs, no. Very few horses get bitten so badly that they need to spend their entire lives wrapped up in one rug or another. Fly rugs are a very recent invention.




			Some horses are heavily shown to high standard so its only justified they want to protect the tail from getting ripped in fencing - other horses chewing it anything like that.
		
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Is that any justification?  Besides which, in getting on for forty years I've never had a damaged tail on any horse.


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## marmalade76 (15 December 2014)

Why would any horse need a tail bag on constantly? How do they cope with the flies in summer? 

I don't really touch my ponies tails (two have thin tails and don't want to lose any through regular brushing/combing and the other two have thick tails that are too much work to brush/comb through every time I ride) unless I'm taking them somewhere where they need to look nice, then they get a wash and condition and are then easy to comb through.


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## marmalade76 (15 December 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Easier. Exactly. Why can't you leave it yellow?



But I do see horses with turnout rugs on on warm sunny days. 

I don't use fly rugs, no. Very few horses get bitten so badly that they need to spend their entire lives wrapped up in one rug or another. Fly rugs are a very recent invention.



Is that any justification?  Besides which, in getting on for forty years I've never had a damaged tail on any horse.
		
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Agree with every word, CPT.


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## Moya_999 (15 December 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Easier. Exactly. Why can't you leave it yellow?
		
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because it not just yellow its black from mud on the trails and it looks horrid hard to brush out  and can make a horse itchy when dirty and greasy.

 and because I like my horses to look nice when out in public



 proffesional people always wash their horses tails or howe have the  show jumpers/ dressage horses etc compete with white tails





			I don't use fly rugs, no. Very few horses get bitten so badly that they need to spend their entire lives wrapped up in one rug or another. Fly rugs are a very recent invention.
		
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 so what about sweet itch horses ? - horses with staph aureus ?
pale pink skin horses?






			Is that any justification?  Besides which, in getting on for forty years I've never had a damaged tail on any horse.
		
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well good for you  clap clap clap.

   Well I have  youngsters chewing other fellow livery horses including mine
horse had sweet itch so bad  made it raw
 just 2 examples


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## Moya_999 (15 December 2014)

marmalade76 said:



			Why would any horse need a tail bag on constantly? How do they cope with the flies in summer? 

I don't really touch my ponies tails (two have thin tails and don't want to lose any through regular brushing/combing and the other two have thick tails that are too much work to brush/comb through every time I ride) unless I'm taking them somewhere where they need to look nice, then they get a wash and condition and are then easy to comb through.
		
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when he had a bag on in the summer while i was growing it he splated a lot of flies with the bag.  Now I do not use it in the summer only winter months


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## cptrayes (15 December 2014)

I really thought it went without saying that I don't include horses with medical conditions that require rugs.

A dirty bottom of the tail with mud stains is a health risk?  Oh please! I'll bet there aren't many horses with black tails that suffer from the same health risks .   I'd rather someone thought I was a lazy owner than have my horse never able to swish his tail.


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## Palindrome (15 December 2014)

JoJo_ said:



			I went to college with a girl who put about 8 rugs on her horse and this was only 8yrs ago! No joke. I looked after said horse for a weekend while she went home and had a list of what order the rugs went on. She was a stocky TB and the girl didnt want her growing a winter coat as she needed sedating to clip. The layers included a newmarket fleece, an actual duvet, many stable rugs with a heavy on top. When stabled she had an anti cast roller on top of all that! The poor mare was twice the size by the time she was ready for bed!
		
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I have heard that coat growth has more to do with how many hours of daylight there is, so to keep the coat thin they apparently let the lights on in the evening in show barns in the US.


I was a bit bemused at the 800 grams too, mine is unclipped thin skinned and currently in a 40 grams. When I used to stable in London, most horses were rugged all year round, with people really proud of rugging/owning lots of rug/stabling their horse. I found it a bit strange.


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## millikins (15 December 2014)

Mine are all natives and are rugged partly to suit them and partly me. If unclipped or bib then unrugged if cold and crisp, they seem to feel the cold far more when it's wet and I hate putting tack or harness on soggy ponies so rugged, then I tend to use 50-100g filled, even on the Shetty because I cannot find a rainsheet that I trust to stay waterproof in heavy rain. They've also all had sugarbeet last winter and now this, I think it's great, seems to work like Readibrek for horses. They live out with plenty of good hay.


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## Moya_999 (15 December 2014)

cptrayes said:



			I really thought it went without saying that I don't include horses with medical conditions that require rugs.

A dirty bottom of the tail with mud stains is a health risk?  Oh please! I'll bet there aren't many horses with black tails that suffer from the same health risks .   I'd rather someone thought I was a lazy owner than have my horse never able to swish his tail.
		
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 who meantioned  the bottom of the tail being a health risk???? only you  god al mighty  what a silly comment which obviously amused you.

 So that means all the show jumpers out there must be doing the wrong thing washing their horses tails and manes before a competition, and using tail bags.

Tail bags have already been discussed in a recent thread and loads of members use them, so I suppose your againts neck covers too then  oh those pooor poor  traumatised horses can never rub lovely mud into their necks perish the though........................

All those bad bad owners using neck covers to keep their horses clean......................


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## NZJenny (15 December 2014)

I know the NZ rug was a great invention (along with electric fencing and No.8 wire), but I am so grateful for modern alternatives.


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## NinjaPony (15 December 2014)

As the owner of a grey I can see why owners use a tail bag. I don't because he always loses them in the field, but I do plait his tail and I end up washing it twice a week to keep it white and not mud colour/yellow...


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## _HP_ (15 December 2014)

ihatework said:



			Survived they did!

But I for one am glad to see the back of those God damn awful canvas new zealands, that is for sure 

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Same...

I generally only rug in summer (sweet itch) and maybe for persistent rain but would rather overrug in a modern rug than put an old fashioned New Zealand anywhere near my horse.....horrid things!


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## doodle (15 December 2014)

Oh dear my poor horse, I must be a terrible owner, he has 750grm of rugs on tonight


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## EquiEquestrian556 (15 December 2014)

Kamikaze said:



			Oh dear my poor horse, I must be a terrible owner, he has 750grm of rugs on tonight 

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Really?


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## doodle (15 December 2014)

Yes really.  I expect he will be dead by the morning.


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## EquiEquestrian556 (15 December 2014)

Kamikaze said:



			Yes really.  I expect he will be dead by the morning.
		
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I highly doubt that! If a horse genuinely needs to be that warm, then do it


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## cptrayes (15 December 2014)

NinjaPony said:



			As the owner of a grey I can see why owners use a tail bag. I don't because he always loses them in the field, but I do plait his tail and I end up washing it twice a week to keep it white and not mud colour/yellow...
		
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Why can't you leave it stained?


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## cptrayes (15 December 2014)

Kamikaze said:



			Oh dear my poor horse, I must be a terrible owner, he has 750grm of rugs on tonight 

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Why?  What is it about him or where he is living that requires that weight of rug?  If he isn't old or ill then I am genuinely confused.


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## NinjaPony (15 December 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Why can't you leave it stained?
		
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Because I like my pony's tail to actually look white when I take him out to dressage shows and take him showing.... I don't like the yellow tail look personally and strive to keep him clean and presentable.


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## cptrayes (15 December 2014)

NinjaPony said:



			Because I like my pony's tail to actually look white when I take him out to dressage shows and take him showing.... I don't like the yellow tail look personally and strive to keep him clean and presentable.
		
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That's why I won't buy greys


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## doodle (15 December 2014)

He is a tb and living in an outside stable having gone from a stable in a barn which gets warmer where he still needed a HW combo.  He was chaser clipped although mostly grown out and now has been clipped at the vets down to the skin, from behind where your leg is to his hip from stifle on one side to stifle on the other side so quite bald.  He has also dropped weight (hence clipping and investigations at the vets) so I don't want him to be cold.  I do check and he is not too warm with this arrangement, but also been below freezing every night.  He is wearing 650grm out in the field.


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## NinjaPony (15 December 2014)

Horses for courses- rug as your horse needs not how someone else tells you.


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## cptrayes (15 December 2014)

Kamikaze said:



			He is a tb and living in an outside stable having gone from a stable in a barn which gets warmer where he still needed a HW combo.  He was chaser clipped although mostly grown out and now has been clipped at the vets down to the skin, from behind where your leg is to his hip from stifle on one side to stifle on the other side so quite bald.  He has also dropped weight (hence clipping and investigations at the vets) so I don't want him to be cold.  I do check and he is not too thin with this arrangement, but also been below freezing every night.  He is wearing 650grm out in the field.
		
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Thanks for the explanation, I can understand why you would do that with a horse which  is too thin.


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## criso (15 December 2014)

Bay tb v1 isn't in work and thinks he should have been a native..  He has a 170g at night as his stable isn't that warm and is an outdoor one and on the end.  On other yards he has worn less and noting in an indoor barn.  Currently a MW in the field.  I've let his mane grow and it's on both sides so he doesn't need a neck.  When he lived out 2 winters ago he moved up to a heavyweight when it got really cold.

Bay tb v2.0 is high chase clipped and a more delicate soul so he has about 350g both night and day and neck on his turnout. 

I don't think I overrug but that doesn't mean I want to swap my nice light easily washed modern stable rug for a jute rug with an army blanket underneath carefully folded back under a roller.  Nothing wrong with progress.


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## flirtygerty (15 December 2014)

ihatework said:



			Survived they did!

But I for one am glad to see the back of those God damn awful canvas new zealands, that is for sure 

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I still have one 30+ yrs old and still used in very extreme temps, normally used as a draught excluder over a gate, got to say, it's the only rug that's not pulled off the gate if not tied on, probably due to the weight


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## ashlingm (15 December 2014)

I'd rather my horse wore a tail bag than having to wash its tail with freezing cold water in the depths of winter.... not the nicest experience for horse or owner!

It's not like they're immobilised once its on...they can still swish and move it about!


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## flirtygerty (15 December 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Easier. Exactly. Why can't you leave it yellow?



But I do see horses with turnout rugs on on warm sunny days. 

I don't use fly rugs, no. Very few horses get bitten so badly that they need to spend their entire lives wrapped up in one rug or another. Fly rugs are a very recent invention.



Is that any justification?  Besides which, in getting on for forty years I've never had a damaged tail on any horse.
		
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I have to disagree with you re fly rugs, my TB hates rugs of any description and I prefer a muddy horse to a rugged horse, but my TB suffers badly from flies, coming out in lumps all over, biting himself, kicking at his belly and generally being unhappy in himself, he chose to be in the barn through the summer by himself, rather than suffer the flies, I once hacked him out and within ten minutes, we were both covered in flies, him tossing his head trying to dislodge a swarm around his head, it was a very short hack, not pleasant for either of us, he is allergic to most sprays, this year I got by on vinegar, so my lad is the exception


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## twiggy2 (15 December 2014)

ashlingm said:



			I'd rather my horse wore a tail bag than having to wash its tail with freezing cold water in the depths of winter.... not the nicest experience for horse or owner!

It's not like they're immobilised once its on...they can still swish and move it about!
		
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you don't HAVE to wash your horses tail at all, I don't bag or wash I brush and oil but I don't have to do that I could just leave it as nature intended and my horse wont drop dead-it wont drop dead with a tail bag either though I have to say


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## twiggy2 (15 December 2014)

marmalade76 said:



			One good thing about the rugs of today is being able to clip out and still have them living out 

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horses used to be clipped and live out more often than they do now


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## flirtygerty (15 December 2014)

Moya_999 said:



			because it not just yellow its black from mud on the trails and it looks horrid hard to brush out  and can make a horse itchy when dirty and greasy.

 and because I like my horses to look nice when out in public



 proffesional people always wash their horses tails or howe have the  show jumpers/ dressage horses etc compete with white tails



 so what about sweet itch horses ? - horses with staph aureus ?
pale pink skin horses?




well good for you  clap clap clap.

   Well I have  youngsters chewing other fellow livery horses including mine
horse had sweet itch so bad  made it raw
 just 2 examples
		
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Why get personal, Cptrayes is an experienced owner that has helped so many people, she is entitled to her opinion, constructive critism is fine, a personal attack is not


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## FionaM12 (15 December 2014)

flirtygerty said:



			Why get personal, Cptrayes is an experienced owner that has helped so many people, she is entitled to her opinion, constructive critism is fine, a personal attack is not
		
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Agreed flirtygerty. Your posts are quite unpleasant Moya_999, in an otherwise pleasant and light-hearted thread.


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## FionaM12 (15 December 2014)

I remember the days of jute rugs and NZ rugs well. I also remember that only clipped horses were rugged at all. Most of the horses at our yard are unclipped, but covered in rugs up to their ears.


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## RunToEarth (16 December 2014)

The great thing about horses is that there are so many different ways to keep them happy and healthy. 

I can't abide the sanctimonious "my horse lives in a 1970 NZ therefore everyone's should" because actually modern rugs were designed for people who don't want shoulders like boulders. If I want a white tail at 11am on a Saturday, and I'm not causing any ill effect to my horses, is it really any one else's concern?


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## cptrayes (16 December 2014)

flirtygerty said:



			I have to disagree with you re fly rugs, my TB hates rugs of any description and I prefer a muddy horse to a rugged horse, but my TB suffers badly from flies, coming out in lumps all over, biting himself, kicking at his belly and generally being unhappy in himself, he chose to be in the barn through the summer by himself, rather than suffer the flies, I once hacked him out and within ten minutes, we were both covered in flies, him tossing his head trying to dislodge a swarm around his head, it was a very short hack, not pleasant for either of us, he is allergic to most sprays, this year I got by on vinegar, so my lad is the exception
		
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I didn't say no horse needed them, FG, I said very few  And yours sounds like one.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (16 December 2014)

RunToEarth said:



			The great thing about horses is that there are so many different ways to keep them happy and healthy. 

I can't abide the sanctimonious "my horse lives in a 1970 NZ therefore everyone's should" because actually modern rugs were designed for people who don't want shoulders like boulders. If I want a white tail at 11am on a Saturday, and I'm not causing any ill effect to my horses, is it really any one else's concern?
		
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Exactly!

Not all of us still use full top sheets with layered blankets on our beds; most use duvets these days, so changing with the times for more modern conveniences is progression.
Neither do we (usually) beat carpets with brooms to clean them, most hoover instead.


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## Sussexbythesea (16 December 2014)

RunToEarth said:



			The great thing about horses is that there are so many different ways to keep them happy and healthy. 

I can't abide the sanctimonious "my horse lives in a 1970 NZ therefore everyone's should" because actually modern rugs were designed for people who don't want shoulders like boulders. If I want a white tail at 11am on a Saturday, and I'm not causing any ill effect to my horses, is it really any one else's concern?
		
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Agree. 

I cannot see the logic of struggling on with outdated items when new, better and more comfortable versions for both the horse and us are now available. The technical fabrics available for both the horse and us have made riding and horse care so much more pleasant. In every other part of our lives we move on so why not with horses? 

My horse has a fly rug as he reacts to bites badly and sometimes he just gallops up and down in a frenzy trying to get away from them when they are bad and he is not wearing a rug. He wore a tail bag when I kept him at a yard that had a heavy clay soil that made his tail into one sausage that set like a club, he also had a snuggy hood there as the clay was so hard to remove. He didn't need these at his previous yard and he doesn't need them now so he doesn't wear them.


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## dollymix (16 December 2014)

My mare has a wardrobe better than mine - but I do feel silly sometimes. My first pony and the whole yard she was on, lived out - in one big field of mares and geldings - she never wore a rug and the only time they came in was when the snow was too thick to get their noses through. 

They were all unclipped etc - but only used for hacking really which I suppose makes a difference....and I remember having to 'thatch' under one of those string rugs, with clean straw if they got sweaty!


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## Shantara (16 December 2014)

Horses AND people have survived for millions of years. 
That does not mean I would like to live in a cave or wear a corset or hide from people with the black plague. Sometimes, times change for the better  I often wish I could re-live the days of my childhood (and do, by watching Disney films) but as far as horses go, I don't think they've ever had it this good!


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## MurphysMinder (16 December 2014)

I thought this was an interesting article on rugging.  A particularly relevant quote
 "So before we reach for the rug catalogue and order the warmest and most expensive rug for our horse, its worth taking a minute to consider if they really need rugs  or indeed if rugs could actually be detrimental to their health."


http://www.bluecross.org.uk/1752-13...utm_campaign=Horse newsletter - December 2014


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## _HP_ (16 December 2014)

Chan said:



			Horses AND people have survived for millions of years. 
That does not mean I would like to live in a cave or wear a corset or hide from people with the black plague. Sometimes, times change for the better  I often wish I could re-live the days of my childhood (and do, by watching Disney films) but as far as horses go, I don't think they've ever had it this good!
		
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This....


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## BlackRider (16 December 2014)

I've had grey's for over 20 years, and competed on the county circuit, I never felt the need for a tail bag!

A blue shampoo always bring the tail up nice and white, and washing the mane and tail before a show is part of the prep.


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## Goldenstar (16 December 2014)

Why do threads like this descend into judgemental nonsense .
I dislike riding, handling and being around dirty horses and that includes tails .
My horses look every day like they could go to a show or go hunting .
And a lot of labour and time goes into keeping them looking like that .
That's my choice I don't care if others do something different or have less time it's nothing to do with me .
I rarely ride in tack that's not clean or on a horses with any mud at all on it and that includes our living out horse.
I am happy my horses are happy and others are happy doing other it in other ways ,alls well with the world.

The modern rugs offer horses level of comfort that they did not have when I started working and yes the one saddle fit  all was common lots of things have changed and moved on for the better .
In my first job I looked after a hunter who was 18 people came to look at this amazing horse who could still hunt at 18 it now would not even raise an eyebrow now ,advances in saddles and to some extent rugging play a role in that .


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## Christmas Crumpet (16 December 2014)

I remember having to lug our NZ's up to the house and laying them on top of stools in front of the AGA to dry overnight. We used to just use a jute rug with a summer sheet underneath and a duvet if it was especially cold which it did seem to be in those days in the winter. Now it never seems that cold at all - weird!! 

I turn out in a PE 200g MW every day - my horse doesn't need anything warmer than that and she is fully clipped out. She is constantly on the move in the field and there is plenty of grass and hay for her to eat. The little mini doesn't have a rug on and nor will she - her coat is amazing. I rug my horse up warmer in the stable because she isn't moving about to keep warm like she does in the field. 

She is grey and goes hunting at least once a week - therefore I wash her tail before going hunting and it comes up all nice and white. Her tail is cut to just below her hocks which helps keep it clean and a good blue shampoo does the rest. I have found with other dirty ponies that plaiting their tails keeps the majority of them clean - far better than tail bags surely?


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## stencilface (16 December 2014)

I think of my poor blanket clipped TB out in all weathers - in at night for the worst of the winter though - in a canvas NZ rug with a wool lining, one strap at the front and two rear leg straps, that thing was more off the horse than on if it was a windy day!  Not that he ever cared mined you, he was too busy standing on the hill staring at the horizon. :rolleyes3:

I don't have time in my life for keeping a grey horse clean, I can't remember when I last cleaned my tack either.  I wash his tail once a month ish in winter, providing its not going to freeze, I don't want to create an ice rink!  Thats to just knock the worst off.  In summer I can keep him quite spangly, but in winter for me its about survival, I only get to ride twice a week and generally don't have time for much else.  I love him being rugged though, less area to scrape mud off and less dust to inhale


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## Casey76 (16 December 2014)

I must admit I'm bemused at people who layer up to 800g.  Can you imagine what that must feel like to the horse... so heavy!  Also, it is bearly freezing at the moment, what happens when it gets really cold?

In our yard of regularly competing horses who are all clipped out, and winter temps often drop to -10C to -15C we bearly break out the 350g rugs.  Generally we want our horses to feel cool under their rugs not "toasty"


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## FionaM12 (16 December 2014)

Chan said:



			Horses AND people have survived for millions of years. 
That does not mean I would like to live in a cave or wear a corset or hide from people with the black plague. Sometimes, times change for the better  I often wish I could re-live the days of my childhood (and do, by watching Disney films) but as far as horses go, I don't think they've ever had it this good!
		
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Overall, I think it's true that today's horses get a better deal, and perhaps this is why they live much longer. I remember few horses living into their twenties in the early 1970s, and they were usually fully retired by then. I also remember very thin horses being a common sight.

However obese horses seemed to be less common than today. 

I quite enjoy these then-and-now threads, but I do wish they wouldn't become personal and judgemental. We all do things in different ways, what's to fight about?


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (16 December 2014)

too young to really remember but from speaking to those older than me:

anything that was clipped and a poor doer would have spent more time stabled. Lack of neck covers or rugs suitable for layering meant cold horses, poor horses etc...just stayed in for more of the day.

or so i am told.

so in a way, being able to layer and use neck covers, snuggy hoods etc does some horses a favour....NMT's Fig is the biggest wimp and poorest doer ive met. He has lush dairy pasture, true ad lib(probably has over a slice of haylage left every single morning), has 3 feeds a day, additional fibre in the form of chaff before work etc so we couldnt feed him any more if we tried.

He has got a HW full neck with a MW liner on atm, plus a snuggy hood. Being able to layer rugs like this means he CAN be outside all day, every day, getting fresh air and time to be a horse, but not ever be cold (which would be a waste of money spent on feed as well as miserable for him).

as far as tail bags go, Bruce wears one in the field year round, splatters plenty of bugs with it and isnt at all bothered by it. He wears a sweet itch rug in the summer anyway as otherwise rubs himself raw, so the flies cant get him, so he's not really missing out.

with him being grey the rug and bag do keep him cleaner too, so shoot me-i dont buy horses and pay every penny i earn to watch them frolic round covered in **** and mud. They have jobs to do and i like them to look nice doing it. They get their basic needs of food, water, health care, company and space met to absolutely top standards, so if their other care is partially based around making life easier for ME, i hardly see that as crime of the century.


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## ihatework (16 December 2014)

Casey76 said:



			I must admit I'm bemused at people who layer up to 800g.  Can you imagine what that must feel like to the horse... so heavy!  Also, it is bearly freezing at the moment, what happens when it gets really cold?

In our yard of regularly competing horses who are all clipped out, and winter temps often drop to -10C to -15C we bearly break out the 350g rugs.  Generally we want our horses to feel cool under their rugs not "toasty"
		
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Completely bonkers isn't it. But people who do that manage to justify it to themselves in one way or other and don't understand basic physiology.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (16 December 2014)

its the same old thing of it being appropriate to the horse..........we have 2 in 220g that are fine and 2 in a HW+MW as one has a medical condition and the other is just a very cold and very poor doer.

we dont just bung the same rugs on every horse regardless and i think when it DOES become that someone just rugs every horse the same, thats when its a problem. But carefully tailoring it to each individual surely shows care and consideration.


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## Wagtail (16 December 2014)

IME most horses love fly rugs. When thee horse flies are about, they will virtually clamber into them. I kid you not! Horses make it very clear when they don't want rugs on. My filly does not want a rug on in her stable, but likes one on for when she goes out overnight. I know because she will not stand still if she doesn't want her rug on. My old mare was a very hot horse and hated rugs unless she was fully clipped out in winter or the flies were bad in the summer. Literally, she would just keep heading you off each time you tried to get round her to put it on if she didn't want it. But she would come looking for me in the summer when the flies were bad and present herself for her fly rug to be put on.


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## EquiEquestrian556 (16 December 2014)

cptrayes said:



			I don't use fly rugs, no. Very few horses get bitten so badly that they need to spend their entire lives wrapped up in one rug or another. Fly rugs are a very recent invention.
		
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My NF mare is actually a very sensitive horse, she should of been born a TB, as she's so sensitive & fast  
She does need a fly rug & mask, as she unfortunately does get bitten quite badly poor girl  And sadly my Father's Andalusian has severe sweet itch, so also has to wear fly rugs. 

I don't disagree with fly rugs, I think they're quite a good invention, most are very LW & breathable, and some protect the horses from the sun rays.

But, as others have said, you have to rug the horse in front of you


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## stencilface (16 December 2014)

Wagtail said:



			Horses make it very clear when they don't want rugs on.
		
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My sisters pony used to make himself scarce if the rugs came out and he deemed it warm enough to not need one


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## EquiEquestrian556 (16 December 2014)

Wagtail said:



			IME most horses love fly rugs. When thee horse flies are about, they will virtually clamber into them. I kid you not! Horses make it very clear when they don't want rugs on. My filly does not want a rug on in her stable, but likes one on for when she goes out overnight. I know because she will not stand still if she doesn't want her rug on. My old mare was a very hot horse and hated rugs unless she was fully clipped out in winter or the flies were bad in the summer. Literally, she would just keep heading you off each time you tried to get round her to put it on if she didn't want it. But she would come looking for me in the summer when the flies were bad and present herself for her fly rug to be put on.
		
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Very true WT! All of ours are in fly rugs when the flies are bad, they really do love wearing them! One of our Welsh mares will be looking for us to come & put it on her! I only put them on when I see that they're getting upset though.


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## NellRosk (16 December 2014)

stencilface said:



			I don't have time in my life for keeping a grey horse clean, I can't remember when I last cleaned my tack either.  I wash his tail once a month ish in winter, providing its not going to freeze, I don't want to create an ice rink!  Thats to just knock the worst off.  In summer I can keep him quite spangly, but in winter for me its about survival, I only get to ride twice a week and generally don't have time for much else.  I love him being rugged though, less area to scrape mud off and less dust to inhale 

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Couldn't agree with this more!! I have 2 greys on DIY and I'm struggling enough to get through this winter without cashing all my savings in, quitting work and running off somewhere hot until next year. About once a month I boil up a kettle and wash most of the mud/ crap out their tails, cover it in mane and tail and give it a good brush and a trim. And then I leave them for another month! Poor neglected beasts


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## stencilface (16 December 2014)

NellRosk said:



			Couldn't agree with this more!! I have 2 greys on DIY and I'm struggling enough to get through this winter without cashing all my savings in, quitting work and running off somewhere hot until next year. About once a month I boil up a kettle and wash most of the mud/ crap out their tails, cover it in mane and tail and give it a good brush and a trim. And then I leave them for another month! Poor neglected beasts 

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Oh yes!  Liberal spraying of coat shine or whatever it is to help the mud slide off - I still don't think it works!  I'm thankful we have the electric these days for a kettle too, otherwise he would be bog monster for months on end


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## Rocknrollcowgirl (16 December 2014)

I find often majority of the threads that cptrayes comments on errupts into a pointless task of everyone feeling like they have to justify what they do with their horses purely because she condemns everyone else around her. 
Well, each of my horses is rugged, fed and stabled very differently. My older Anglo Arab hates the stable and is out in 700gms worth of rugs unclipped atm with a constant supply of hay and her old timer feeds. She is happy and fat. My 6 yr old is stabled at night, fully clipped and in super heavy rugs in and out, fed a shed load of haylage and her own feed 3 times a day. She is also happy and looking nice. My new AQH 2 year old is stabled, unclipped and in warm rugs with, heaven forbid, leg wraps and a tail wrap. She is a palomino, she is naturally very clean but her tail needs a bit of help. She has haylage and her own feed twice a day, she is growing into a beautiful little creature. Finally my shetland is fed hay, and yes, he has a rug for when it gets super rainy. My stables are insulated, my horses are well fed, but i fail to see the issue with giving my horses that little bit extra via good rugging. We cant judge other people methods of care if their horses are happy. Personally i dont like seeing horses out in the winter looking chilly, feed plays a good part yes, but why not do everything possible to ensure they have a nice sleep too whilst we are snuggled under our duvets. Or do you still sleep on the floor under a knitted blanket cptrayes? No, didnt think so


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (16 December 2014)

just to add, from me personally there is NO implication that not washing or not rugging is in any way neglect-im sure the horses are happy as larry.
Its just that i personally prefer, and have the time/facilities to keep them cleaner. So i do it. And thats not neglect either.

As long as the horses are happy i dont mind what its wearing or when it last got bathed, but some people seem to think its either their way or its neglect..............which is bull poo.


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## criso (16 December 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			too young to really remember but from speaking to those older than me:

anything that was clipped and a poor doer would have spent more time stabled. Lack of neck covers or rugs suitable for layering meant cold horses, poor horses etc...just stayed in for more of the day.

or so i am told.

.
		
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I wouldn't say clipped horses didn't go out but where I was down in Devon is a fairly temperate part of the country.  In fact they went out more as there was less overstocking of livery yards and insufficient grazing that I find now in Hertfordshire. My 2nd pony was mainly anglo arab and hunter clipped and felt the cold more than either of my two tbs do today.

We did layer at night but we had heavy jute rugs and old army blankets and those rollers with padding either side of the wither.  Pony club taught you the correct way to layer.The old new zealands were much heavier and inconvenient  than current turnouts but the ones I had at least had a good wool lining though so  while less than the 350g I use in cold weather still provided a good deal of protection.

It's true about feeding though, I  remember feeding full fat sugarbeet, flaked maize and barley in reasonably large quantities to keep weight on and a little weight loss over winter wasn't unexpected.


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## only_me (16 December 2014)

I do find it strange that some horses live constantly with a tail bag on - i actually didn't realise people did this. Why not just cut/bang tail to just below hock so then the tail won't drag in the mud?

I can't remember the last time I washed bill's tall, most likely at the start of September. Admittedly he has a black tail but he lives out and even when i had a grey it was never an issue large enough to need a tail bag on 24/7. Blue shampoos are excellent, especially if you prewash with dirty beastie 

He is unclipped but has such a fine winter coat so he is currently in a MW high neck. He could probably do with less but he prefers to stand at the top of the very windy hill watching the traffic go past in all weathers, instead of using the deep straw bed inside the large shelter. The donkeys are glad of it though 

I rug as i see fit - and layer up as needed and don't particularly care how others rug their horse as I'm sure they know what their horse requires. Certain people on HHO are known for their outspokenness and sometimes rude opinions so just don't rise to it and be happy that your horse is happy


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## Wagtail (16 December 2014)

At the riding school where I worked many moons ago, none of the horses got turnout during the winter. The ponies were all kept together in a covered pen deep littered with straw. No rugs. The horses were all stabled and clipped with the old fashioned jute rugs. No new zealands as they never got turned out. In the summer, the show jumpers got a few hours out daily if the weather was nice. The riding school horses and ponies were out 24/7 in a field a mile away. We would ride one and lead one bareback every morning from the field along a busy A rode with nose to nose lorries. I can't believe I used to do that! It horrifies me now.


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## MotherOfChickens (16 December 2014)

I'm amused at how people in Devon/Dorset etc can comment for the whole country when it comes to weather and flies 

anyway, I remember keeping a trace clipped TB pony out in NZs (in Suffolk) fit for hunting. It took alot of hard feed to keep weight on him-even when we then decided to keep him in overnight. I remember how the rugs didnt fit well (on anything) and the rubs, and how many blankets they had on under their jutes and desperately trying to make the roller more comfortable for them. I am not a big fan of necks on rugs but if your horse lives out in horizontal rain and wears a rug, its better to have one than not-or the rain just goes down the front. My natives are not rugged in winter but all of mine line up to wear fly rugs when its bad in the summer-midges, birch flies and cleggs can make their life a misery without.


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## Shantara (16 December 2014)

FionaM12 said:



			Overall, I think it's true that today's horses get a better deal, and perhaps this is why they live much longer. I remember few horses living into their twenties in the early 1970s, and they were usually fully retired by then. I also remember very thin horses being a common sight.

However obese horses seemed to be less common than today. 

I quite enjoy these then-and-now threads, but I do wish they wouldn't become personal and judgemental. We all do things in different ways, what's to fight about? 

Click to expand...

I think so too, and the owners! I love being able to buy red rugs, or rugs with spots on or whatever and having a huge amount of thickness's to buy them in! 

I think even 100 years from now we'll still have certain issues, whether it be rugs, fat or thin horses, or bits, or barefoot...I don't think there will EVER be a perfect combination or things for every horse. Unless we teach horses to speak English.

I enjoy them too! I've only been around horses for 20 years and since I was in riding schools for most of that, I haven't really noticed a change...except in hats and BPs! Though I do have a memory of a beautiful bay horse in a horrid waxy green turnout thing. Also agree there's no need to argue unless there's actual cruelty involved!


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## luckyoldme (16 December 2014)

god I can remember the old nz s and jute stable rugs with blankets and rollers.
All i know is that ive got a 25 year old tb xsomething  living out 24/7 in fantastic condition, clean legs and bright as a button thanks to the modern rugs.


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## cptrayes (16 December 2014)

Thanks for that. Rocknrollcowgirl. Welcome to the forum  


I find it amazing:

1.  How many people manage to read things I never write.

2. How many people do not realise that a thread only continues if more than one person joins the discussion, yet somehow hold me responsible for that.

3. How many people seem to be afraid of an argument, which used to be something taught in school but now has become, on this forum, a dirty word.

4. How many people fail to notice that I praise and support at least as much as I criticise.

5. How few people realise that without busy threads this free forum would disappear.

6. How incredibly defensive people get while protesting that they have nothing to be defensive about. If people genuinely think that what they do is right what the devil does it matter what an internet stranger says?

Lighten up guys, it's Christmas and I'm about to hit the Market and the mulled wine and then the panto


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## FionaM12 (16 December 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Lighten up guys, it's Christmas and I'm about to hit the Market and the mulled wine and then the panto 

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Can I come?


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## cptrayes (16 December 2014)

Wagtail said:



			IME most horses love fly rugs. When thee horse flies are about, they will virtually clamber into them. I kid you not! Horses make it very clear when they don't want rugs on. My filly does not want a rug on in her stable, but likes one on for when she goes out overnight. I know because she will not stand still if she doesn't want her rug on. My old mare was a very hot horse and hated rugs unless she was fully clipped out in winter or the flies were bad in the summer. Literally, she would just keep heading you off each time you try and get round her to put it on if she didn't want it. But she would come looking for me in the summer when the flies were bad and present herself for her fly rug to be put on.
		
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Interesting wagtail, thanks. Mine are in a barn during the day in summer for their waistlines, but if I had one that was tormented by flies of course I would use a rug


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## cptrayes (16 December 2014)

FionaM12 said:



			Can I come?  

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More the merrier, I'll meet you by the garlic mushrooms D


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## Rocknrollcowgirl (16 December 2014)

Oh, cptrayes, I argue for a living, i womder if you can guess my job, feel free to channel your issues in my direction anytime.


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## twiggy2 (16 December 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			too young to really remember but from speaking to those older than me:

anything that was clipped and a poor doer would have spent more time stabled. Lack of neck covers or rugs suitable for layering meant cold horses, poor horses etc...just stayed in for more of the day.
		
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I am old enough to remember (creak/groan), my experience was that horses had more turn out not less, herd turn out was more common, riding school ponies would have bib clips and live out at night in one big herd (14-16), hunters used to live out clipped and get ad lib forage, those that needed it wore duvets or blankets under a jute rug with a roller-there were not left cold on the various yards I worked at, the biggest difference was that turn out was all year round on more yards, herd turn out was more common and the horses just had to sort them selves out which was rarely a problem they just got on with it, mixed herds were more common, ad lib hay was more common, horses worked harder and had less excuses made for them but behaviour was better anyway on the whole, people were less likely to over clip and over rug-horses were kept as horses. 
I don't care if people want to wash tails twice a day/bag a tail up/how many rugs a horse wears, I do wish people would not say they HAVE to do those things cos they don't they want to and that is up to them as long as the horse is kept as a horse (turn out/equine company and good forage based diet) then why does every one get so het up about it?


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## Palindrome (16 December 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			just to add, from me personally there is NO implication that not washing or not rugging is in any way neglect-im sure the horses are happy as larry.
Its just that i personally prefer, and have the time/facilities to keep them cleaner. So i do it. And thats not neglect either.

As long as the horses are happy i dont mind what its wearing or when it last got bathed, but some people seem to think its either their way or its neglect..............which is bull poo.
		
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Agree but would you say a healthy horse needing 800 grams of rug during a mild English winter is uncommon/rare?


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (16 December 2014)

from the amount of horses alone on HHO that seem happy and healthy in it...no.

perhaps horses are evolving to live a more cosseted life, and are getting less tough? I dont know, but i do know that not many very fit, fully clipped horses i know of would be warm enough in just a 350gm full neck and remain in optimum condition/not lose weight. On every pro yard i visit most if not all horses have layers on, and with their livelihood and income at stake, pros will not do things that result in un-happy or un-healthy horses.

could more horses live out in less rugs if left un-clipped, im sure they could. But most people keep horses to ride, and many to compete, so clipping and bathing need replacing with rugs.


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## WindyStacks (16 December 2014)

I am bemused. Having spent the last decade on BE/NL/DE yards with temps going below minus 20 - the fascination with spring/summer rugging no less seems bizarre. 

Black tails get mucky too. Nag yet to die. 

Cowboy magic is the stuff which repels dirt - nb for the love of god don't put it on the saddle area. It's like wd40!


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## Palindrome (16 December 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			from the amount of horses alone on HHO that seem happy and healthy in it...no.

perhaps horses are evolving to live a more cosseted life, and are getting less tough? I dont know, but i do know that not many very fit, fully clipped horses i know of would be warm enough in just a 350gm full neck and remain in optimum condition/not lose weight. On every pro yard i visit most if not all horses have layers on, and with their livelihood and income at stake, pros will not do things that result in un-happy or un-healthy horses.

could more horses live out in less rugs if left un-clipped, im sure they could. But most people keep horses to ride, and many to compete, so clipping and bathing need replacing with rugs.
		
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You can't know if a horse is happy without having seen him.
It's funny how you constantly pull the pro/competition card. Unfortunately, you can make money out/compete unhappy or unhealthy horses, that is a bit naive to think otherwise. Not sure lots of theses horses are in 800 grams either as this is not just layering, it is layering the 2 heaviest rugs you can buy.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (16 December 2014)

no but unlike many HHO'ers i dont assume i know the horse better than the owener/rider/care giver!

so if THEY say the horse is happy, its mostly probably true with very few exceptions.

Im not a fool, i know many practices that go on behind closed doors are less than palatable, but generally pro's and their grooms will not waste time on something as menial as layering rugs, if it is not needed. 

I dont *pull* any card-i merely point out that it might be worth taking note of what the most successful people do...

Do ALL horses need layered rugs? Do all horses in layered rugs win? no of course not,and thats not what im saying before that gets twisted too!


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## Bigbenji (16 December 2014)

Back to talking about those old canvass NZ rugs .....  Remember if they were wet then it froze? Jeeze I remember crispy NZs!


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## Luci07 (16 December 2014)

Added up the rugs on my (clipped) horse last night. Came to 700 grams plus leg wraps. Or should have. However, when rugs age, even when they are still waterproof and entire, they do lose their warmth. Mine was actually in a 100 gram plus sheet (again fully clipped) till very recently. The difference? Age of rugs. 

And I never want to return to the old fashioned new Zealand's. Heavy old rugs as soon as they get wet. Jutes were great for drying off though and I did use to layer up (anyone else remember how to put on a blanket under their rugs?!) 

As for tail bags, sincerely wish I had known about them when I had a Gray!. I competed all winter and struggled to keep his tail remotely white. Yes it's my personal preference but hardly harms the horse! 

However someone chooses to keep their horse ..it's up to them. You don't always know the reasons why a horse is rugged in a certain manner and tbf, I can't think when I last looked at a horse and thought it was over rugged. Except mine when travelling a couple of weeks ago. He only went up in a thermatex but we found out the hard way that his travelling companion is actually a large equine heater!


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## puppystitch (16 December 2014)

The original question was "how did the horses of my youth survive"....and the answer is that they didn't always. I'll never forget my riding instructor telling my roughly 9 year old self that my favourite ginger TB-type probably wouldn't make it through another winter. He wasn't that old, but sure enough she was right. Maybe if modern rugs had been available he would have hung around a bit longer. Personally, I quite like seeing them in their PJ's at bed time


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## Wagtail (16 December 2014)

My employer would routinely send the horses off to the hunt around the age of 16.


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## EquiEquestrian556 (16 December 2014)

Wagtail said:



			My employer would routinely send the horses off to the hunt around the age of 16. 

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Eek, that's still 'young'


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## puppystitch (16 December 2014)

Wagtail said:



			My employer would routinely send the horses off to the hunt around the age of 16. 

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Gosh that's young!


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## Tiddlypom (16 December 2014)

Bigbenji said:



			Back to talking about those old canvass NZ rugs .....  Remember if they were wet then it froze? Jeeze I remember crispy NZs!
		
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Oh yes, this. I remember standing them upright, frozen solid, in the kitchen to thaw and moving them on to a network of clothes horses to finish dripping once they'd got flexible enough. 

Then having to keep mopping up all the filthy water as it pooled underneath them. 

Really, REALLY don't miss doing that..


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## cptrayes (16 December 2014)

pros will not do things that result in un-happy or un-healthy horses.
		
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Let's not turn this into a pro slaughterfest, but there are plenty of pros (not all)  who do plenty of things which are not for the good of the horse.


Just one illustrative quote from a high quality livery yard I wanted to keep a horse at:




			Why do you want your horse turned out every day in winter? We'll only have to feed him more.
		
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Mulled wine, cheesy potatoes, foot long sausage, strawberry in white chocolate kebab and cheesy garlic bread all done, in that order. Off to see Warwick Davies pay a dwarf now.  Ummm, that shouldn't be too much of a challenge for him


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## cptrayes (16 December 2014)

puppystitch said:



			Gosh that's young!
		
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It was impossible to get insurance once they were over fifteen when I first had a horse.


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## FionaM12 (16 December 2014)

Wagtail said:



			My employer would routinely send the horses off to the hunt around the age of 16. 

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EquiEquestrian556 said:



			Eek, that's still 'young' 

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That wasn't considered young in my previous horsey days (1970 to 1976). I remember a retired old lad of 21, he'd long since stopped being worked and was considered ancient!


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## Rocknrollcowgirl (16 December 2014)

Are you working on the same 'feed more, wear less' system for yourself too cptrayes?


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## Arizahn (16 December 2014)

Rocknrollcowgirl said:



			Are you working on the same 'feed more, wear less' system for yourself too cptrayes? 

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Don't know about CPT but I am. It's working very nicely thank you; I've dropped two jean sizes in as many months 

Anyhow, never mind tail bags - are tail extensions a thing now? Because my older horse needs them: he has reduced himself to a straggly bobtail look, gah  Poor chap hadn't the best tail to start with anyhow. I know it will grow back. I just feel sorry for him until it does, but at least there are no flies at this time of year!


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## cptrayes (16 December 2014)

Rocknrollcowgirl said:



			Are you working on the same 'feed more, wear less' system for yourself too cptrayes? 

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Yup, works a treat, you should try it.  Our heating is several degrees lower than most people's, I wear half the clothes most people do when it's icy outside.  I'm not the slightest bit uncomfortable and I can eat more than other people and stay slim. It's a win win  

Your system learns to work so that you don't feel uncomfortable, I once saw the effect in a documentary comparing trawler men and people who weren't hardened to the cold.  I think the same is true of horses, someone rugs them to the eyeballs, then they genuinely begin to need rugging to the eyeballs.


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## cptrayes (16 December 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			no but unlike many HHO'ers i dont assume i know the horse better than the owner/rider/care giver!
		
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Oh yes you do!  (I've just got back from the panto )


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## Rocknrollcowgirl (17 December 2014)

May I suggest then, that you keep yourself in in the summer too. That way you can watch your waistline with the horses


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## Boysy (17 December 2014)

Just wet myself laughing at all this, hilarious goings on!

I have Natives, hairy fat ones usually, they live out 24/7......we compete, a lot, therefore anything that saves me time at 4am on a Saturday morning is a bonus.....so winter will = rugs, tail bags, pig oiled legs, plaited tails and snuggy hoods (minus the faces, can't stand them).

However I don't and never have over-rugged, winter is the ponies natural diet time, they get months without horrible grazing muzzles, get to roam all over without being penned in etc etc. The most they have worn is 300g with a fresh full clip (legs and faces left on) in -12 temps and snow for weeks on end. One would boil in 300g so max rug he has is 200g, one is arthritic so is kept warmer than usual and much better for it, another thinks he will expire if he isn't stuffing 24/7 so is fed more rather than rugged more etc etc etc.

Horses for courses, mine are as happy as stink as far as I can tell, everyone knows their own horses/ponies and will have their own way of doing it, my routine of legs, tail washing, plaiting, oiling etc takes me an hour on a Sunday every week and I love doing it. Saves me oodles of time the rest of the week to spend quality time snuggling them and riding


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (17 December 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Oh yes you do!  (I've just got back from the panto )
		
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you are the exception to my rule, you are special


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## cptrayes (17 December 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			you are the exception to my rule, you are special 

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Oh no I'm not!   (Still in panto mode )

You devoted several very long posts on a thread  the other day to telling everyone happily competing at Intro that they didn't know how to ride their own horses.


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## Leam1307 (17 December 2014)

Oh the lovely NZ rugs... hated those things, always had to get someone else to put it on my pony as i couldnt lift it when it was wet. Remember when you used to put a duvet under the stable rugs and fold back the corners just so. lol mine was always poo stained by morning in a pile in the stable. Got a HW cob just now who is used to living out unrugged. But i cant stand putting tack on a wet muddy horse, or spending ages waiting on him cooling down to turn him out so hes now living in at night with a full clip. He has a 200g combo on (more to keep his neck clean and mane untangled). ive just got him a 300g rug but he wont get that on until hes clipped again and the temp goes below -5. Hes cool but warm at the moment and seems pretty happy to come in out the wind and rain.  

Never heard of tail bags before.. what do they look like and how do they stay on?  His tail almost touches the ground and being a Trad Cob means i cant really trim it back. At the moment i have it in three pleats and then those into one big pleat. It gets undone, brushed and re-done once a week.  His forelock and mane are also pleated most days. Mainly so he can see where hes going lol


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (17 December 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Oh no I'm not!   (Still in panto mode )

You devoted several very long posts on a thread  the other day to telling everyone happily competing at Intro that they didn't know how to ride their own horses.
		
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CPT twisting things again.................i didnt say they didnt know how to ride, i actually said in most cases they could probably all do prelim and do fine at it, despite their protestations that they NEEDED to do intro and thus i think intro is pointless and lowers standards as it stops people achieving the very basics before they compete.

can you not read or are you just deliberately obtuse? must be one or the other.....................


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## saddlesore (17 December 2014)

Leam1307 said:



			Never heard of tail bags before.. what do they look like and how do they stay on?  His tail almost touches the ground and being a Trad Cob means i cant really trim it back. At the moment i have it in three pleats and then those into one big pleat. It gets undone, brushed and re-done once a week.  His forelock and mane are also pleated most days. Mainly so he can see where hes going lol
		
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Google tailgator- they really are fab  they also weigh almost nothing and are not the cruel torture device some are suggesting &#128513;


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## SunSeeker (17 December 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Oh no I'm not!   (Still in panto mode )

You devoted several very long posts on a thread  the other day to telling everyone happily competing at Intro that they didn't know how to ride their own horses.
		
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Hahaha...... Love these threads where theres a bit of banter going on !


As for rugs,personally I think its one of the best advances in routine  horsecare in years.  Yes some people might go a bit OTT but I think its fab that I can allow my horse to live out 24/7, and still have a relatively clean horse to ride.


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## cptrayes (17 December 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			CPT twisting things again.................i didnt say they didnt know how to ride, i actually said in most cases they could probably all do prelim and do fine at it, despite their protestations that they NEEDED to do intro and thus i think intro is pointless and lowers standards as it stops people achieving the very basics before they compete.

can you not read or are you just deliberately obtle? must be one or the other.....................
		
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Re-read your posts Princess, you told everyone that there was no need ever to ride an Intro and you argued back several times with people who told you why their horses needed to do one in spite of never having met them or their horses.

So leaving the 'advice' you gave to me about horses you'd never seen completely out of this, you are in no position to claim, as you did, that you never assume that you know better than a horse's owner/rider/carer, because you do.


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## NinjaPony (17 December 2014)

Back to rugs- I think modern rugs are brilliant, wonderful things. Means I can keep my clipped ponies warm and clean without weighing then down with heavy canvas rugs and allows them to go out and race around in the field in all weathers. Plus the huge range of styles and weights gives so much choice meaning everyone can find something to suit. Just as well considering I own a wimpy pony- had to put a fleece on him under his rug last night despite me thinking the temperature had raised- but he was cold so there you go.


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## millikins (17 December 2014)

The owners of a horse on a yard I used to be on were slated by their vet for "destroying their horse's immune system by over rugging her". I know the telling off was true, whether 4 or 5 rugs on an unclipped, stabled welsh/arab caused repeated health problems or was coincidence is more debateable.


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## Tnavas (17 December 2014)

cptrayes said:



			I couldn't believe reading of people putting 800g of fill on their horses either, even if it's fully clipped. If they need that, surely they are being fed wrong?

I read a thread last week that horrified me too, about horses living their lives with tail bags on.

What are we doing to these creatures who are never allowed to whisk their tails or feel the breeze in their coat or the sun on their backs?
		
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Mines not rugged but many here in NZ are purely to prevent the sun bleaching the colour out of the coat as the sun is really strong. I know many that wear tailbags and are fine - they aren't particularly heavy - often made of parka nylon but protect white tails from pee, poo and mud. 

People often over ug though then spend the day at work stressing because the day turned warmer/colder than they anticipated and their beloved may be too hot/cold.

Surprisingly there are several companies here  that still make Canvas covers, one a company in Oamaru that makes them especially for TB's - they have a totally different design that allows for the high wither - the ones I had never rubbed either wither or shoulder. I find synthetics often chafe the hair leaving the equivalent of split ends. 

I  have photos of my first horse on Xmas day with her back covered in ice, she was toasty warm underneath the hair.


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## FionaM12 (17 December 2014)

mistlekins said:



			The owners of a horse on a yard I used to be on were slated by their vet for "destroying their horse's immune system by over rugging her". I know the telling off was true, whether 4 or 5 rugs on an unclipped, stabled welsh/arab caused repeated health problems or was coincidence is more debateable.
		
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A connection does make sense to me. If you're preventing the horse from controlling its own temperature by causing it to sweat when it's mild and flattening its natural coat so it can't use it as nature intended, there could be health implications I would think.

I'm only talking about extreme over-rugging, I do realise elderly, poor doers and clipped horse may need correct, sensible rugging. I do know one person though who rugs heavily all year round as she wants to keep her horse clean, sleek and prevent winter growth so she looks smart for shows. I can't help but think that's not good or comfortable for the horse. 

My Mollie's living out and not rugged so far this winter. She's 20, but she's in great health, very hairy and still has a little weight to lose so I'm holding back on rugging for now. She's currently covered in sticky-bobs though, which is not a good look. As fast as I remove them, she rolls in fresh ones. Christmas decorations, maybe?


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## criso (17 December 2014)

The other thing to bear in mind is how much horses adapt and will cope with a range of temperatures.  If a horse was in the wild they would cope with the different temps from day to night and days that are warmer or colder than seasonally expected. We haven't got such a narrow window that we will cause major problems by slightly over or under rugging.

Mine have also adapted to the fact that I tend to err on the under rugging side of things by growing a thicker winter coat than they had when they came out of racing, in fact these days bay tb v1 looks like he's been crossed with a yak.

Another thing that happened to him was he was suffering from allergies and went to the RVC for testing.  To reduce any possible allergens they promptly left him unrugged and put him on mats with no bed.  Those who know the RVC will know the stables are big and cold with a wind that whips down the middle from one door to the other.  This was winter, he was chaser clipped and we then had snow fall while he was there.  

He was used to being rugged so while he is quite a hot horse even I was surprised how little he seemed to be affected by the sudden change.  But he is a good doer so in his case I wasn't worried about weight loss.


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## EquiEquestrian556 (17 December 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Re-read your posts Princess, you told everyone that there was no need ever to ride an Intro and you argued back several times with people who told you why their horses needed to do one in spite of never having met them or their horses.

So leaving the 'advice' you gave to me about horses you'd never seen completely out of this, you are in no position to claim, as you did, that you never assume that you know better than a horse's owner/rider/carer, because you do.
		
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Why is your Username 'blank', and on your homepage it says 'Out to pasture', what does that mean?


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## Rocknrollcowgirl (17 December 2014)

Cptrayes got cold and had to go eat some more.


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## EquiEquestrian556 (17 December 2014)

Rocknrollcowgirl said:



			Cptrayes got cold and had to go eat some more.
		
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Seriously though? I've never seen this 'Out to pasture' thing before


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## Wagtail (17 December 2014)

People been button pushing again? :rolleyes3:


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## FionaM12 (17 December 2014)

Oh. Cptrayes has been suspended, it appears.  Anyone know why?


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## Wagtail (17 December 2014)

FionaM12 said:



			Oh. Cptrayes has been suspended, it appears.  Anyone know why? 

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Nope. Completely missed that one. Honestly, why do people have to button push?  We end up losing all the most interesting and knowledgeable people on this forum.


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## EquiEquestrian556 (17 December 2014)

Wagtail said:



			Nope. Completely missed that one. Honestly, why do people have to button push?  We end up losing all the most interesting and knowledgeable people on this forum.
		
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Why? I don't see what she was doing wrong?


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## Wagtail (17 December 2014)

EquiEquestrian556 said:



			Why? I don't see what she was doing wrong?
		
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Me neither.

ETA: It seems Cptrayes has disabled her own logon because she is tired of this place.
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...6-Warwick-Davies-is-short!&highlight=cptrayes


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## EquiEquestrian556 (17 December 2014)

Wagtail said:



			Me neither.

ETA: It seems Cptrayes has disabled her own logon because she is tired of this place.
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...6-Warwick-Davies-is-short!&highlight=cptrayes

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Does that mean that she can't ever come back on the forum, or has she deleted her account?


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## Tnavas (18 December 2014)

Wagtail said:



			Me neither.

ETA: It seems Cptrayes has disabled her own logon because she is tired of this place.
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...6-Warwick-Davies-is-short!&highlight=cptrayes

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Not good - knowledgeable lady always ready to help.


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## Patterdale (18 December 2014)

Wagtail said:



			Me neither.

ETA: It seems Cptrayes has disabled her own logon because she is tired of this place.
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...6-Warwick-Davies-is-short!&highlight=cptrayes

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She can't be that tired, she's been back under 2 different user names already. Latest is bubbleburster, FYI.


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## marmalade76 (18 December 2014)

twiggy2 said:



			I don't care if people want to wash tails twice a day/bag a tail up/how many rugs a horse wears, I do wish people would not say they HAVE to do those things cos they don't they want to and that is up to them as long as the horse is kept as a horse (turn out/equine company and good forage based diet) then why does every one get so het up about it?
		
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Totally agree! This is what gets me too, 'my horse _must_ have a tail bag/lycra hood/onesie/spend most of his time stabled because *insert reason that is_ anything but_ 'I do it simply 'cause it suits ME'*.


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## cremedemonthe (18 December 2014)

Come back Cptrayes, I've got no one to disagree with me now!
If you can read this as a guest/visitor as I can't PM you anymore, have a good Xmas and drop me an email via my website, Oz


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## FionaM12 (18 December 2014)

cremedemonthe said:



			Come back Cptrayes, I've got no one to disagree with me now!
If you can read this as a guest/visitor as I can't PM you anymore, have a good Xmas and drop me an email via my website, Oz
		
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She's still here as Bubbleburster, which is no secret, she told everyone who she is on another thread.


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## cremedemonthe (18 December 2014)

FionaM12 said:



			She's still here as Bubbleburster, which is no secret, she told everyone who she is on another thread. 

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lol, thanks, what a name!


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## Mrs McGoo (18 December 2014)

cptrayes said:



			I couldn't believe reading of people putting 800g of fill on their horses either, even if it's fully clipped. If they need that, surely they are being fed wrong?

I read a thread last week that horrified me too, about horses living their lives with tail bags on.

What are we doing to these creatures who are never allowed to whisk their tails or feel the breeze in their coat or the sun on their backs?
		
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Have to agree with you on this one.  My unclipped native - in the summer a gorgeous white grey - is a total mess.  He does wear a light rug for turnout, as it is the only way I can cope with the mud in the saddle area.  I do hack out lightly in the winter on a nice day, which we both enjoy.  However, if I am asked which yard we are from, I always mention the very posh, full livery yard, close by.  Do get some strange looks!!  hehehe.  However, I do wish he didn't do headstands in the field - removing mud behind the ears becomes an 'issue'!

The mane and tail are now black and tangled, instead of white and flowing.  Couldn't bear the thought of my boy with a tailbag.  And as for a hood - tried that once and lots of mane went awol.  In the summer he goes commando.  However, I have occasionally put on a pure cotton, old fashioned, summer sheet to keep the flies off.  Doesn't seem to bother him. Putting plastic or synthetic rugs on doesn't appeal to me.  Wouldn't like it on myself.  I know, I know, I am not a horse.  But still...........


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