# shocked - mounted hound exercise



## spacefaer (1 August 2010)

Does anyone else's hunt charge for members of the field going on mounted hound exercise?

Ours has been out with bike exercise for the last month - on specific dates - £10 for adults, £5 for children, with bacon butties at the end of the morning.

I've just discovered that they intend to continue the charge for MHE as of the middle of August......

I can appreciate that after last winter, hunts are feeling the pinch and have been paying for autumn hunting from the first meet.  We never used to pay anything until 1st October for cubbing (as was).  Do you think this new charge is normal or greedy??

I went out 6 mornings in a row last season - that would've been £60 for one week......

How are we meant to "make" young horses at that cost??


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## JenHunt (1 August 2010)

ours don't charge for the mounted hound exercise, but they charge for the bacon butties and tea at the end!


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## hunteress (1 August 2010)

its still a bussiness we charge now and for autumn hunting we found people would come for free and then stop when subscriptions started £60 would go a long way to feed the hounds why do you wan't it for free and not pay when the fun starts !! the hunt dosn't run on fresh air there is a lot go's on in the background and you are priveledged to be going onto some of the farmers land not open to the public. You wouldn't go eventing or showjumping without paying a entry fee would you so why people think the hunt should be FREE is beyond me.


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## Simsar (1 August 2010)

Hound excercise is just that its not for hunt followers really, but some hunts allow one or two, and yes you probably will have to pay.


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## Rowreach (1 August 2010)

Simsar said:



			Hound excercise is just that its not for hunt followers really, but some hunts allow one or two, and yes you probably will have to pay.
		
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Back in the day, hound exercise was not for followers, and you could only come by invitation (or if you asked the masters very nicely ).  It's more difficult for the staff to exercise hounds properly if there are a load of followers anyway.

Nowadays it is another way of bringing it a bit of money for the hunt, and I see no problem with charging for it myself.  I would happily pay £5 or £10 to educate my young horse for a couple of hours rather than £10 to take it round a little sj comp for the grand total of 2 minutes!


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## spacefaer (1 August 2010)

thanks for your responses

I'm not expecting to hunt for free and I'm perfectly aware that there is a huge cost in running the hunt

My point was that MHE used to be by invitation only and for only a few mounted followers as (has been pointed out) it's too difficult particularly on modern roads, to exercise hounds safely and effectively with hordes of people behind.

I have since discovered that this outing is on a Sunday and is being advertised in our local country store.  It is therefore merely a fund raising exercise - more of a glorified hack with hounds - than real hound exercise. I have no problem with this as I know our hunt needs money


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## Daddy_Long_Legs (1 August 2010)

Our hound exercising is by invitation only(or ask huntsman very nicely). There are only 2 of us that go out regularly at the moment and that's only walking hounds not with horses.

It's funny but we don't encourage people to go out mounted hound exercising or autumn hunting. You would get quite a few on a Saturday but not many during the week. Also majority of people won't get out of bed that early!!!


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## dad_io (2 August 2010)

£15 cap or £80 for an autumn hunting sub at ours (september til opening meet in november) i think its excellent value for money especially as all hunts are feeling the pinch


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## Judgemental (2 August 2010)

I have never heard of anything quite so abhorrant - charging for mounted hound exercise!

Who is this bucket shop hunt that are engaging in this wholly unacceptable conduct?

Hound exercise at about 6 ish should be a time when the master and huntsman - possibly not even the master but the huntsman and whips visit the farmers in turn and sometimes those farmers join them for the rest of the exercise?

BY INVITATION ONLY - as should be situation early morning - autum hunting -cubbing

The standards of hunting etiquette are clearly slipping up and down the country. 

This forum provides a valuable insight into why and where hunting is degenerating.

Far far too many people are becoming obsessed with MONEY where hunting is concerned.

Yes, it costs a considerable sum yto run a hunt properly but if the overall conduct of 'the done thing' or 'not done thing' are diluted then those who expect to see the old established standards and customs will simply not particiapate or contribute - financially.


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## Judgemental (2 August 2010)

hunteress said:



			its still a bussiness we charge now and for autumn hunting we found people would come for free and then stop when subscriptions started £60 would go a long way to feed the hounds why do you wan't it for free and not pay when the fun starts !! the hunt dosn't run on fresh air there is a lot go's on in the background and you are priveledged to be going onto some of the farmers land not open to the public. You wouldn't go eventing or showjumping without paying a entry fee would you so why people think the hunt should be FREE is beyond me.
		
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"It's still a business" - Hunting is not a business it is a SPORT


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## L&M (2 August 2010)

I can beat that!! 
I pay a full subscription compounded ie including cap, and have done so for the last 5 seasons. However I have just been informed that this season I will have to  pay cap for Autumn hunting on top.....!
I totally understand the charge for non subscribers, or those that do not pay there subs compunded, and although appreciate why the hunt needs the money, still think it is taking the piss for those that pay for a subcscription whereby cap is supposedly included. 
As with full hunting, I try to attend twice a week so will now have to stump up approx £160 extra!


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## Serenity087 (2 August 2010)

Judgemental said:



			"It's still a business" - Hunting is not a business it is a SPORT
		
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No, hunts are businesses!  What a stupid thing to say!


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## JenHunt (2 August 2010)

quite agree HG, hunts have to run as a business, even if they don't turn a "profit" - they need to justify their income and expenditure for tax purposes as much as anything!


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## Simsar (2 August 2010)

Its a sport for us and and a business for the hunts!


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## Baggybreeches (2 August 2010)

^^^this^^^
Our hunt is a ltd company and therefore a business.


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## Judgemental (2 August 2010)

Baggybreeches said:



			^^^this^^^
Our hunt is a ltd company and therefore a business.
		
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A limited company - a limited company!

I suppose Masters will now be called Managing Directors or Chief Executive Officers.

As a matter interest are the hounds assets of the hunt (yes I know they are assets) but are they valued on the books as assets?

If so how much are they valued at? 

I suppose you could reveal the name of this modern hunt and one could simply look up the details at Companies House.

A limited company, well I never..............


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## Amymay (2 August 2010)

Judgemental said:



			I suppose Masters will now be called Managing Directors or Chief Executive Officers.
		
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Well yes, I suppose you could say that.  Being as knowledgeable about hunting as you are, you will be fully cognisant of the roll the Masters play, not only in the administration of duties, staffing and discipline - but also in the financial responsibilities they as individuals usually carry.




			suppose you could reveal the name of this modern hunt and one could simply look up the details at Companies House.

A limited company, well I never..............
		
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Why do you continue to be so antagnoistic when discussing hunting? We know that 'tradition' is the most important thing for you.  But long gone are the days when hunts are privately run - and yes they must be run as a business to survive.

Do your homework - that are several hunts that are limited companies - it is entirely in their interests to be run as such.  They don't need assets - just turnover...........

You may find this interesting:

http://www.supportfoxhunting.co.uk/facts_figures.shtml

Particularly: _Business structure -46% are sole traders, 32% partnerships, *21% limited companies.*_

The figures are very informative - citing that only about 57% of a hunts income comes from subscribers and members.  So increase the charges to the members and you increase its revenue.  It's a no brainer really - however difficult or dissapointing it may be for subscribers.


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## Simsar (2 August 2010)

Justmentle go back to your hole.


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## hunteress (2 August 2010)

Sidney said:



			I can beat that!! 
I pay a full subscription compounded ie including cap, and have done so for the last 5 seasons. However I have just been informed that this season I will have to  pay cap for Autumn hunting on top.....!
I totally understand the charge for non subscribers, or those that do not pay there subs compunded, and although appreciate why the hunt needs the money, still think it is taking the piss for those that pay for a subcscription whereby cap is supposedly included. 
As with full hunting, I try to attend twice a week so will now have to stump up approx £160 extra!
		
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everyone who pays a full subscription and compound cap get hound ex and autumn Hunting free i think if they had to pay that there would be an uproar feel sorry for you.


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## chancing (2 August 2010)

judgemental I see your point about it being a sport I really do however I also agree with the fact that it is also a business. Hounds have to be fed and so horses staff have to be paid upkeep of the yard and kennels etc costs alot and although I would struggle to pay for more than one maybe two hound exercises a week I would not begrudge paying. The hunt needs to be supported and I dont think it is a case of standards slipping I think it is a case of needs must!! Hunts have to adapt to the current climate and recession and the hunt in question is clearly trying to keep its head and hounds above water and out of trouble!


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## chancing (2 August 2010)

and furthermore judgmental i think that if you want to keep hunting in years to come you change your old fashioned views and 'go with the flow' if you stick to your guns the times will move without you. same for the hunt if they dont adapt they sink and Im sure you like myself and everyone else on this forum would rather have hunting at an extra cost than none at all.


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## marmalade76 (2 August 2010)

I think hunting is becoming a total rip-off. My most local hunt wants £55 cap for a week day, the majority of which will be spent standing around doing nothing but chatting, you ususally can't even see the hounds.

As for being "priveledged to be riding on some farmers land", yes I am, but I don't have to be following the hunt to do so. Our area is covered with bridle ways, has a huge common (covered by said hunt) and as my OH is a farm contractor I have permission to ride on farms that do not have bridleways, so I am not going to pay £55 to stand around all day on land I can ride on anyway! FWIW some of the farmers cannot stand the hunt or hunt followers, they are not anti-hunting - just anti hunting people!


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## Judgemental (2 August 2010)

Yes yes I know all about the above and I am not being antagonistic, just genuinely surprised.

However about these hounds being assets of a limited company.

How are they valued, it really is most interesting because I have never come across this before, i.e. a hunt being a limited company.

Please, share..............


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## Amymay (2 August 2010)

Judgemental said:



			Yes yes I know all about the above and I am not being antagonistic, just genuinely surprised.

However about these hounds being assets of a limited company.

How are they valued, it really is most interesting because I have never come across this before, i.e. a hunt being a limited company.

Please, share..............
		
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A limited company does not need assets, just turnover.  And for audit purposes I'm not sure that hounds are counted as financial assets.

But Google is your friend, Judgemental.  Just look it all up.

And what exactly are you genuinly suprised about?  You've always alluded to the fact that you have connections and are in the 'know' as it were.  Talk to your many contacts and colleagues.  I'm sure they'll be delighted to educate you on the business dealings of their hunt(s).


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## Judgemental (2 August 2010)

amymay said:



			A limited company does not need assets, just turnover.  And for audit purposes I'm not sure that hounds are counted as financial assets.

But Google is your friend, Judgemental.  Just look it all up.

And what exactly are you genuinly suprised about?  You've always alluded to the fact that you have connections and are in the know as it were.  Talk to your many contacts and colleagues.  I'm sure they'll be delighted to educate you on the business dealings of their hunt(s).
		
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Well none have ever told me their hunt it a limited company. This is a first, nevertheless very interesting, perhaps you would care to name the hunt?

Then all one has to do is pop into www.companieshouse.co.uk find the company pay my £1.00 and have a look at the accounts, another £1.00 for the shareholders and another £1.00 for the last return.

So be a good chap or chapess and tell us which hunt?

Thanking you kindly for your anticipated help.

PS I my interest in the value of the 'hines' was purely academic


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## Judgemental (2 August 2010)

cooliorulz said:



			and furthermore judgmental i think that if you want to keep hunting in years to come you change your old fashioned views and 'go with the flow' if you stick to your guns the times will move without you. same for the hunt if they dont adapt they sink and Im sure you like myself and everyone else on this forum would rather have hunting at an extra cost than none at all.
		
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The fact that somebody started this thread and entitled "Shocked - Mounted Hound Exercise" and the main thrust of their concern was that they are being charged, is indicative of the clear feeling that such traditional customs should remain. Ie. that if you happen across the hounds out on early morning exercise, then so be it and to be asked for money is in my world wholly unacceptable.


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## combat_claire (2 August 2010)

Given the parlous state of most hunt finances and the rising costs associated with running a pack I am hardly surprised that some have started charging for hound exercise. Our pack does not charge for pre-season hound exercise, unless it is a fund raising jolly on bikes with breakfast afterwards (which is a fiver per head). By the time autumn hunting starts followers are capped £15 until they pay a subscription when it gets thrown in free of charge. 

Allow me if you will to approach this from a slightly different angle than the 'outraged to be charged' stance that started this. I am not going into the rights and wrongs of this approach; but I have seen for myself just how many subscribers think their contribution to the hunt ends when the cheque for their full subscription clears. I think it is quite sad that a large swathe of the hunt feel they don't need to support fund raising events off the hunting field, get involved with any stewarding or come campaigning for the election yet are the first to moan when hunting becomes ever more expensive. The consequence of this being that few people know who they are as they simply do not socialise off the hunting field. 

It is also my opinion that it is all very well to day dream about the golden days of hunting and wish it had remained ever so. I challenge anyone who has ever read Surtees, Sassoon or similar not to have thought how wonderful an era it must have been to hunt in. I love all the old traditions of hunting, yet things have to progress and move on and there is sometimes little point in retaining a tradition just for the sake of it. 

I'm going to go off at a huge tangent now, but whilst clearing country for the mink hounds this summer my master phoned a landowner who used to hunt with the otter hound pack that preceded us. She denied us permission to take hounds along the stretch of river in front of her land and as such meant the whole draw had to be abandoned. Her reason was that 'hunting is not what it used to be'. How very sad that a hunting stalwart denied our young followers the chance of drawing that river because of her perceptions of how things have changed.


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## combat_claire (2 August 2010)

Oh and I can think of at least two packs that are a Limited Company being the Ashford Valley & the Ledbury while others such as the Mendip Farmers have made their fallen stock enterprises into Limited Companies.


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## Baggybreeches (2 August 2010)

Judgemental said:



			A limited company - a limited company!

I suppose Masters will now be called Managing Directors or Chief Executive Officers.

As a matter interest are the hounds assets of the hunt (yes I know they are assets) but are they valued on the books as assets?

If so how much are they valued at? 

I suppose you could reveal the name of this modern hunt and one could simply look up the details at Companies House.

A limited company, well I never..............
		
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It's The Holcombe and if you like I will furnish you with the company registration number. I think the reason they became ltd was to do with insurance and liability issues. And in response to the obnoxious comment about the book value of our hounds, I will do my best to find this out tonight at the supporters club meeting. I think it's important to modernise in order to survive. 2 seasons ago I was very very troubled at the changes within our hunt, however the new administration has proved to be a breath of fresh air. They are more business like but this has given the hunt the opportunity to flourish, most notably with huge success at hound shows.


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## combat_claire (2 August 2010)

Would certainly be interesting to know whether they just attribute a figure for the hounds or whether they get into issues of depreciation as they age. In times gone by of course valuing them would have been easier with the Rugby Hound sales giving comparable prices. 

It is a sensible and more common option for hunts that do not have bottomless income streams to become limited companies or revise their business structures so they may take advantage of the tax breaks. Who cares if it isn't the traditional format if it achieves the aims of the hunt, which should primarily to keep operating.


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## Judgemental (2 August 2010)

combat_claire said:



			Would certainly be interesting to know whether they just attribute a figure for the hounds or whether they get into issues of depreciation as they age. In times gone by of course valuing them would have been easier with the Rugby Hound sales giving comparable prices. 

It is a sensible and more common option for hunts that do not have bottomless income streams to become limited companies or revise their business structures so they may take advantage of the tax breaks. Who cares if it isn't the traditional format if it achieves the aims of the hunt, which should primarily to keep operating.
		
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Combat_claire you are an absolute star, in fact positively brilliant because that is exactly what I was getting at, viz The Rugby Hound Sales for example.

There is clearly a value upon a hound and it is not unreasonable to suggest that a hunt that operates as a limited company, would consider the hounds to be assets and therefore a value has to be made.

Therefore one simply wondered from an academic point of view how the valuation was made.

It is very difficult to value hounds although it was common practice in the 19th century and whole packs were sold at phenomenal prices.

You see, is a pack that trail hunts and is stready to the trail nowadays, more valuable than a pack that is easier to hunt after Charlie - I stress for example in the latter case.


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## Judgemental (2 August 2010)

I see generally from Companies House Website they are all in fact and I quote: PRI/LTD BY GUAR/NSC (Private, limited by guarantee, no share capital)

Not quite the same as a limited company as such as a result they can do as they please with valuations etc


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## hunteress (2 August 2010)

marmalade76 said:



			I think hunting is becoming a total rip-off. My most local hunt wants £55 cap for a week day, the majority of which will be spent standing around doing nothing but chatting, you ususally can't even see the hounds.

As for being "priveledged to be riding on some farmers land", yes I am, but I don't have to be following the hunt to do so. Our area is covered with bridle ways, has a huge common (covered by said hunt) and as my OH is a farm contractor I have permission to ride on farms that do not have bridleways, so I am not going to pay £55 to stand around all day on land I can ride on anyway! FWIW some of the farmers cannot stand the hunt or hunt followers, they are not anti-hunting - just anti hunting people!
		
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enjoy then we are all different maybe you are privelaged and thats what you prefer to do x


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## Maesfen (2 August 2010)

I just find it very sad that those who purport to be hugely committed hunting people are begrudging the Hunt some chance to have help with expenses when every penny counts for us all, them included.  
Sometimes, your subscriptions don't come close to the actual running costs but they can only charge what people can pay so they have to rely on functions in one shape or another to help meet those costs; hound exercise could well be one of their functions to do that.  Put it this way, you'd be mighty peeved if hounds weren't fit enough at the Opening Meet and beyond and wouldn't you like to know that you have helped get them to peak fitness let alone the pleasure of watching hounds, learning to get to know them well and the camaraderie which can happen on hound exercise?  It's all part of hunting, hunting doesn't just happen at Opening Meet, there's a lot of work involved before that day and If that involves you putting your hand in a pocket for a tenner any morning you can go, well, it's cheap at half the price for the pleasure it can bring plus of course, it's an excellent way to get either yourself fit if using a bike or your horse so killing two birds with one stone.


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## Simsar (2 August 2010)

MFH I love you!


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## marmalade76 (2 August 2010)

Personally I have no problem with hunts charging for hound exercise. I used to go Bloodhounding and they  have hound exercise meets because they don't have Autumn hunting. It was a few years ago now, the cap for HE was £10-£15 and there would be far more out than for hunting proper. There would be 100 or more for HE, and as little as half a dozen for hunting. This could be because most can afford to spend £10-£15 but not £50 plus.  With the Bloodhounds a full sub of £650 would cover all HE and hunting with no extra field money, but they did only hunt once a week. Excellent value for money IMO.


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## Maesfen (2 August 2010)

Simsar said:



			MFH I love you!
		
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Likewise I'm sure.


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## Doormouse (2 August 2010)

Harper_Gal said:



			No, hunts are businesses!  What a stupid thing to say!
		
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I agree, just a shame that alot of hunts are so bad at business!  Take a look at the wages of hunt staff around the country and the corner cutting that is now involved in many packs, not all, but many.  Every single pack in the country relies on fund raising to survive no matter how large or small but the finances have got to run properly and returning to the same well of money every time is not on.  You cannot keep asking your supporters to hand over money all year and expect them not to get hacked off with it.  Fund raising ideas need to be innovative and to pick on every section of the locality to improve awareness, community and entertainment for all.  I know how much it costs to run a pack of hounds and I also know that there are plenty of people who take, take, take from hunting and never put anything back but a bit of enterprise could yield a surprising amount of income without constantly hitting the same people again and again.
Having said all that I would think that alot of people who want to go hound exercise may not hunt and therefore contribute nothing to the hunt throughout the year.  However, a great many people who hunt now no nothing about hounds, how it all works at the kennels etc and I would of thought encouraging people to be interested in the nuts and bolts of hunting and not just galloping about all over other peoples land would be excellent PR for the future.


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## Baggybreeches (3 August 2010)

Judgemental said:



			I see generally from Companies House Website they are all in fact and I quote: PRI/LTD BY GUAR/NSC (Private, limited by guarantee, no share capital)

Not quite the same as a limited company as such as a result they can do as they please with valuations etc
		
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I did clarify that it was for insurance and liability that the hunt became limited. As it was I didn't get to find out about the hound valuation last night, as it was a supporters club meeting. I do suspect though that the value of our hounds will increase significantly after success at Great Yorkshire and Peterborough.

At last night's meeting there was a division over whether to charge an entrance fee for some social events. The general consensus was that if we could provide free attendance then we would have a larger captive audience for fundraising schemes like raffles etc.

I would think the OP's hunt would get more people (if that's what they want!) by charging £5 for MHE, than £10, perhaps not double the amount in one morning, but I am sure it would encourage more people to try it and see?


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## Ditchjumper2 (3 August 2010)

Baggybreeches said:



			I did clarify that it was for insurance and liability that the hunt became limited. As it was I didn't get to find out about the hound valuation last night, as it was a supporters club meeting. I do suspect though that the value of our hounds will increase significantly after success at Great Yorkshire and Peterborough.QUOTE]

Guess that would depend on how they actually hunt.  They may look good conformation wise, but if they are not actually good hunters...................?
But I am sure they are!!
		
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## Baggybreeches (3 August 2010)

Ditchjumper2 said:



			Guess that would depend on how they actually hunt.  They may look good conformation wise, but if they are not actually good hunters...................?
But I am sure they are!!
		
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Yes but isn't that the same with horses? I admit to being shamefully shallow and I would much rather have mediocre but pretty horses and hounds! After all I am under no illusion to think I am God's gift, unlike so many others.


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## Simsar (3 August 2010)

Maesfen said:



			Likewise I'm sure. 

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For such a good post!


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## Cavblacks (3 August 2010)

Judgemental on the hounds = asset POV. 

As an accountant, a companies assets on their balance sheet falls into 2 categories 1) Non-Current or fixed assets and 2) current assets.

A fixed asset in one that cannot be converted easily into cash and would be held within the business for more than 1 year, and cannot be sold on to a firms end users 

A current asset is one that is held within the business for a period of less than 1 year, ie cash, stock etc things that are liquid.

Now, im not au faix with how long a hunt would keep its hounds for. And there are many other accounting policies that would be taken into consideration too but these really are the very basics. 
In my experience I would treat a hound as a current asset as it is quite liquid asset ie. it could be sold on very easily for cash, unlike say a building. Also as being livestock they are not generally seen as "long term" as death illness etc can cause them to be very short term.

Therefore the value of the hounds (valued at lower of cost or net realisable value (what you could sell it for)) would sit on the balance sheet of the hunt as a current asset.


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## Judgemental (3 August 2010)

I fear the preoccupation of many that hunt with money may ..............


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## LizzyandToddy (5 August 2010)

I have paid for hound exercise and autumn hunting for at least two seasons now, although I may not get out for it more than twice a week during term time. I don't really see a problem with paying, as in my view im getting what I'm paying for.
I guess the only way you guys can be angry is if your not satisfied with what it is your getting in return for your money? - In that case don't go!

Most hunts are no longer privatley funded, and so opt to run as a business but not necessarily to make profit. They do however have wages to pay, horse and hound upkeep and many expenses besides! The fact that many had such a bad year last, certainly the hunt I am with did (mainly due to the weather which we can't do much about!), so I don't think them beginning to charge a small fee to cover these costs is such a bad idea if it means that they will still be around in years to come!!

Hunting maybe a sport to the 'competitors' but for the people running 'the competition' if you like, its a business. Like many other sports.


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## Judgemental (5 August 2010)

LizzyandToddy said:



			I have paid for hound exercise and autumn hunting for at least two seasons now, although I may not get out for it more than twice a week during term time. I don't really see a problem with paying, as in my view im getting what I'm paying for.
I guess the only way you guys can be angry is if your not satisfied with what it is your getting in return for your money? - In that case don't go!

Most hunts are no longer privatley funded, and so opt to run as a business but not necessarily to make profit. They do however have wages to pay, horse and hound upkeep and many expenses besides! The fact that many had such a bad year last, certainly the hunt I am with did (mainly due to the weather which we can't do much about!), so I don't think them beginning to charge a small fee to cover these costs is such a bad idea if it means that they will still be around in years to come!!

Hunting maybe a sport to the 'competitors' but for the people running 'the competition' if you like, its a business. Like many other sports. 

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The Horse and Hound of 15 July 2010 has just passed across my desk and I read the details concerning The Festival of the Horse.

Frankly I was not impressed so far as the comments concering entry fees are concerned and all that flowed from the piece. Indeed the article was extremely critical generally and it all related to MONEY.

Yet again money has been 'overdone' and has tranished what was a VERY reasonable idea and project.

The same will happen with hunting.

Subscriptions should not be due in any hunt until 1 October.

I have never been capped out autumn hunting and as for a charge for hound exercise that is wholly risable. NAY DAFT!

Capping for autumn hunting is I suppose possibly reasonable but in my opinion it dilutes the whole essence of hunting.

LizzyandToddy are saying "I guess the only way you guys can be angry is if your not satisfied with what it is your getting in return for your money? - In that case don't go!"

Simply put another way folk 'won't go'.

My opinion, don't ask for too much financially and those who can afford it will likely make appropriate donations. 

To be fair, it is a difficult balancing act but if everybody sticks to the old established customs - which is of course, the fulcrum upon which hunting exists - then folk will feel they are getting a fair deal.


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## Daisychain (5 August 2010)

Judgemental said:



			"It's still a business" - Hunting is not a business it is a SPORT
		
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Really????

I thought it was about pest control.......


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## Maesfen (5 August 2010)

LizzyandToddy said:



			I have paid for hound exercise and autumn hunting for at least two seasons now, although I may not get out for it more than twice a week during term time. I don't really see a problem with paying, as in my view im getting what I'm paying for.
I guess the only way you guys can be angry is if your not satisfied with what it is your getting in return for your money? - In that case don't go!

Most hunts are no longer privatley funded, and so opt to run as a business but not necessarily to make profit. They do however have wages to pay, horse and hound upkeep and many expenses besides! The fact that many had such a bad year last, certainly the hunt I am with did (mainly due to the weather which we can't do much about!), so I don't think them beginning to charge a small fee to cover these costs is such a bad idea if it means that they will still be around in years to come!!

Hunting maybe a sport to the 'competitors' but for the people running 'the competition' if you like, its a business. Like many other sports. 

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I so agree with you Lizzie.  Yes, it would be lovely if one didn't have to pay for cubbing (I think we charge from 1st October) but in many cases, that is totally infeasible now and I'd rather they charged and survived, than perhaps have to fold because of money problems.  
I feel that people like Judgemental could well be the kiss of death for hunting if they are not prepared to adjust their thinking to take into account the high cost of everything to do with running a hunt, like any other business; they need to wake up and smell the roses otherwise they'll be lucky if the only hunting they will ever see again is on curtains because they will have helped bring about its demise.
In the hunt supporters club when we have functions which are designed to bring in money to help the hunt in some way; we can count on the fingers of one hand just how many actual hunt subscribers/members who ride to hounds, come to them; they just do not seem to be aware that our functions are for their benefit too.  If we don't make money, we can't pass it onto the Masters to help with purchases for the kennels or stables - and the staff can't and shouldn't be asked to work with tools not right for the job, it is unfair when they have a hard enough job already - (which I agree, in the old days, would have been the sole responsibility of the Masters but with the increased costs of just about anything, including insurance, this just isn't possible).  Just this year, we have contributed nearly £12000 for among other things, fencing materials and replaced both a pick up for the kennels and a quad for our 'countryman'.  If we hadn't flashed the cash, then subscriptions would have taken a huge hike; perhaps Judgemental would prefer that instead but many aren't in the position to pay more so charging for HE, seems a sensible alternative.


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## Maesfen (5 August 2010)

Judgemental said:



			My opinion, don't ask for too much financially and those who can afford it will likely make appropriate donations.
		
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What if they don't, or if only a few do?  Should they be penalised for being decent when others do not pay their fair share because that happens in all walks of life, hunting is not immune to selfishness?


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## Baggybreeches (5 August 2010)

Judgemental, I am very sorry to say that your posts actually give me a headache. Please say what you mean instead of your cryptic, nonsenical comments and insinuations. 
Unfortunately as vulgar as it may be 'money makes the world go round', whether that be feeding hounds and repairing kennels or buying hunt horses.
if people pay to visit parks, landmarks etc just to walk round then why would you expect to ride out with hounds for free?


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## Simsar (5 August 2010)

Daisychain said:



			Really????

I thought it was about pest control.......
		
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sport&#8194; &#8194;/sp&#596;rt, spo&#650;rt/  Show Spelled[spawrt, spohrt]  Show IPA 
noun 
1. an athletic activity requiring skill or physical prowess and often of a competitive nature, as racing, baseball, tennis, golf, bowling, wrestling, boxing, hunting, fishing, etc. 
2. a particular form of this, esp. in the out of doors. 
3. diversion; recreation; pleasant pastime.


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## Judgemental (5 August 2010)

It seems one of two of the the brethern do not agree with my views.

I am not going to argue or justfy.

I have always been told by the secretary what the cap is per horse at the beginning of the season and written a cheque.

If as some have suggest hunting is now a business, then presumably their hunt has done a forward projection of expenditure and that should be incorporated in the subscription equation?

So once I have given my subscription as far as I am concerned that is it, save for an emergency.

If the sub is x and folk can only afford part of x then it reasonable to give the secretary regular installments.

But all this faffing around on hound exercise and autumn hunting for a fiver or tenner here or there is self defeating. 

Apart from anything else, if one is on a horse just up from grass, who wants somebody twitching a little leather bag in one's face or that of the horse, at 6:00 or 7:00 am. Ridiculious!

Also, conversation at that hour should be limited to "good morning". Otherwise inevitably the young hounds will lift their heads to listen to the various voices.

Hold hard a moment, I hear a cry of 'Old fashioned or what' - unless hounds have all developed a remarkable sense of modernity their fundamental scenting atributes will of those a hundred or two hundred years ago. Now come on be fair - yes, thank you for your unnanimous agreement. 

That said, as I have been subject to some minor artillary, inflicting one or two rounds into my opinions.

Allow me to reply with the fact I always tip the huntsman and the whips after a good hunt - always.

Similarly at Christmas I always show my appreciation with significant munificence to all the hunt staff, except amatures.  

Yes, I see a range of stiffies over the year for this that and the other fund rasing event and they are of no interest. 

If it's £500.00 or a £1,000.00 or £2,000.00 per horse god forbid, then that should be the payment and only discourse concerning money on 1 October and/or any incremental 'arrangment' made over the season.


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## rosie fronfelen (5 August 2010)

i do agree with you-what a load of faff!! we are a registered hunt, 2 man band,(the committee was done away with years ago-too much in-fighting.)we dont have subs.but have a cap at horse meets-we do have a financial agreement with the farmers which works well.itis not a business bar being pest control-as for paying to go cubbing, never heard of such a thing!!


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## Baggybreeches (5 August 2010)

Spellcheck or education dear Judgemental! You choose.


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## Judgemental (5 August 2010)

rosiefronfelen said:



			i do agree with you-what a load of faff!! we are a registered hunt, 2 man band,(the committee was done away with years ago-too much in-fighting.)we dont have subs.but have a cap at horse meets-we do have a financial agreement with the farmers which works well.itis not a business bar being pest control-as for paying to go cubbing, never heard of such a thing!!
		
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I say Rosiefronfelen we have both hollared the hunted fox away. 

Now a little fun for everybody.

Did you know hounds lift their heads to certain voice levels?

Mainly the bitches - I am talking about the hounds!

Indulge me. If you are on one side of a cover and can hear a conversation but cannot identify the individual - normaly amongst the ladies and a hound comes out and cocks his or her head or you see them standing in the cover listening, if you have an opportunity ride around to the otherside of the cover and identify the person or persons.

On future days seek out your hound and I guarantee that hound will lift their head when the same person is speaking.

Don't ask me to go into details as to why, other than certain octaves of a female voice are such that hounds will lift their head and listen but only to certain people. Normally the higher the voice but curiously enough seldom where children are concerned.


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## Judgemental (5 August 2010)

Baggybreeches said:



			Spellcheck or education dear Judgemental! You choose.
		
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Too busy trying to get the message across to the congregation!


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## rosie fronfelen (5 August 2010)

Judgemental said:



			I say Rosiefronfelen we have both hollared the hunted fox away. 

Now a little fun for everybody.

Did you know hounds lift their heads to certain voice levels?

Mainly the bitches - I am talking about the hounds!

Indulge me. If you are on one side of a cover and can hear a conversation but cannot identify the individual - normaly amongst the ladies and a hound comes out and cocks his or her head or you see them standing in the cover listening, if you have an opportunity ride around to the otherside of the cover and identify the person or persons.

On future days seek out your hound and I guarantee that hound will lift their head when the same person is speaking.

Don't ask me to go into details as to why, other than certain octaves of a female voice are such that hounds will lift their head and listen but only to certain people. Normally the higher the voice but curiously enough seldom where children are concerned.
		
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all i know is that yapping followers are my husbands pet hates, and he tells them to shut up,if they dont he'll move off to somewhere more remote!!


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## Maesfen (5 August 2010)

Baggybreeches said:



			Spellcheck or education dear Judgemental! You choose.
		
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Don't start me off on one, can't believe J doesn't know the difference between cover and covert for a start.   There's no excuse for bad spelling particularly about a sport you say you love.


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## Judgemental (5 August 2010)

Maesfen said:



			Don't start me off on one, can't believe J doesn't know the difference between cover and covert for a start.   There's no excuse for bad spelling particularly about a sport you say you love.
		
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I am only an 'umble poltroon - what would I know about spelling but I know a thing or three about coverts and covers - and make good use of them when the opportunity arises!

By the way Rosie - if I may be so bold and familiar - QUITE

Yappy high pitched voices the bane of all good huntsmen.


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## Hanno Verian (9 August 2010)

As usual a wide diversity of views and strong opinion...

For what its worth, I personally believe it that it makes good sense for a hunt to change with the times financially, to enable it to best survive in the current climate, as long as it doesn't lose sight of its aims and purpose. I am very traditional in that I enjoy to see well turned out riders who understand how to conduct themselves on the hunting field, there is a balance to be struck between providing a good day for the field and maintaining standards amongst the field as well as harmonious relations with the farmers, landowners and members of the public, some hunts achieve this effortlessly...others just don't.

A newcomer to hunting, I would hope, would leave the meet with a huge grin on his/her face, having enjoyed the countryside, seen the hounds work and met lots of new people, rather than had a dull day, been snubbed or ignored by everyone and paid a huge amount for the privilege...a sure way to guarantee that they will never come again. Sure I accept that not everyday can be fabulous, if hunting is to survive it needs to cling to the best of its traditions and standards, but be prepared to examine how they achieve the end, and ensure that newcomers are welcomed and existing members valued and included.

We all know of hunts riven by backbiting, petty bickering, with falling field size, losing access to land or struggling hopelessly to remain viableoften to an outsider looking in the reason is readily apparent. If we are to ensure that hunting is secure in the future then we need to take a long hard look at how we do things. 

As an aside I have this year paid £100 cap, then been approached for a donation to the hunt staff, with a field of in the region of 180, as it happened we sat around for about three hours, I found the majority of the field to be stand-off ish, all in all the day cost me in the region of £280, when you include boxing to the meet, a hireling, paying my grooms cap etc. I did feel a little let down by the experience and wont hurry to go out with them again.


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## Judgemental (9 August 2010)

Hanno Verian said:



			As usual a wide diversity of views and strong opinion...

For what its worth, I personally believe it that it makes good sense for a hunt to change with the times financially, to enable it to best survive in the current climate, as long as it doesn't lose sight of its aims and purpose. I am very traditional in that I enjoy to see well turned out riders who understand how to conduct themselves on the hunting field, there is a balance to be struck between providing a good day for the field and maintaining standards amongst the field as well as harmonious relations with the farmers, landowners and members of the public, some hunts achieve this effortlessly...others just don't.

A newcomer to hunting, I would hope, would leave the meet with a huge grin on his/her face, having enjoyed the countryside, seen the hounds work and met lots of new people, rather than had a dull day, been snubbed or ignored by everyone and paid a huge amount for the privilege...a sure way to guarantee that they will never come again. Sure I accept that not everyday can be fabulous, if hunting is to survive it needs to cling to the best of its traditions and standards, but be prepared to examine how they achieve the end, and ensure that newcomers are welcomed and existing members valued and included.

We all know of hunts riven by backbiting, petty bickering, with falling field size, losing access to land or struggling hopelessly to remain viable&#8230;often to an outsider looking in the reason is readily apparent. If we are to ensure that hunting is secure in the future then we need to take a long hard look at how we do things. 

As an aside I have this year paid £100 cap, then been approached for a donation to the hunt staff, with a field of in the region of 180, as it happened we sat around for about three hours, I found the majority of the field to be stand-off ish, all in all the day cost me in the region of £280, when you include boxing to the meet, a hireling, paying my grooms cap etc. I did feel a little let down by the experience and wont hurry to go out with them again.
		
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Seems they all need a bit of jollying along - gentle badinage is good.

But oh dear stand-offish, I hear the same about ours, although I have known most of them from the age of 6 or 7, thus no secrets are hid.

Perhaps reading Jorrocks will help and then it is quite amusing to marry up folk with Mr Jorrocks friends, or indeed those of the Pickwick papers whilst standing about - I dare you to write up your hunting diary accordingly.

Of course that can be a bit of a problem where the ladies are concerned, however Hon's and Rebels can be quite useful as guide.


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## rosie fronfelen (10 August 2010)

i think we live in a different world here- no bickering, snobbishness,standoffish folk, everyone knows everyone else,everyone has a good word for everyone.we have glorious country in which to ride and followers are more than generous to donate.makes for a pleasant day- why cant others be the same i wonder?


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## Judgemental (10 August 2010)

rosiefronfelen said:



			i think we live in a different world here- no bickering, snobbishness,standoffish folk, everyone knows everyone else,everyone has a good word for everyone.we have glorious country in which to ride and followers are more than generous to donate.makes for a pleasant day- why cant others be the same i wonder?
		
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I have been trying to work outr which pack you are - no don't reveal it - all part of the little game. I'll get there.

But you are right there is too too much stand-offishness but largely from folk who are Johnny and Jill-come-latelies. Mainly with newish cash.


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## rosie fronfelen (10 August 2010)

yes, and no breeding-i wonder how long you will take to work it out, not too hard!!


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## Simsar (10 August 2010)

NO breeding!  Its in my blood and I was born in the East end, so common as muck.


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## rosie fronfelen (10 August 2010)

Simsar said:



			NO breeding!  Its in my blood and I was born in the East end, so common as muck.
		
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oh come on,be fair- thiswas a generalisation, nothing personal- i have nothing whatsoever against you!!!


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## rosie fronfelen (10 August 2010)

i have the breeding but am skint- do you follow me?


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## Judgemental (10 August 2010)

rosiefronfelen said:



			yes, and no breeding-i wonder how long you will take to work it out, not too hard!!
		
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I am studying the map from Baileys and think you are probably mid to west Wales. Have yet to identify your exact coordinates

However I am proposing to go on a tirade about snobbish stand-offish conduct.

Not for the moment however, I am going to choose my words very carefuilly but rest assured those who ponce about in high crowned Patey made hats and are right up themselves*, are going to hear what I think.

I have always wanted to have a crack at those who have superior airs and unfriendly graces, because they think might be talking to a tenant **or similar.

This forum provides a marvellous venue to express what I have thought for years - watch this space.

On the other hand perhaps a whole new thread, somebody suggest a title - a title whoops - no not a title title but a title of the thread.

* I hear raw nerves already twanging with embarrisment in the wind **!


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## rosie fronfelen (10 August 2010)

oooooooooooooh, go boy go!!


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## Simsar (10 August 2010)

rosiefronfelen said:



			oh come on,be fair- thiswas a generalisation, nothing personal- i have nothing whatsoever against you!!!
		
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Wasn't a dig back just a comment, to say you don't have to be posh to hunt.xx


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## rosie fronfelen (10 August 2010)

Simsar said:



			Wasn't a dig back just a comment, to say you don't have to be posh to hunt.xx
		
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i know- noone is posh in our hunt, mostly farmers and kids of farmers- we are so lucky to have the cheerful chappies we do have!!


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## Simsar (10 August 2010)

That is the best hunt of all, wish you were closer.


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## Judgemental (11 August 2010)

rosiefronfelen said:



			oooooooooooooh, go boy go!!
		
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As promised I have started a new thread "Too many who hunt are unfriendly and get hunting a poor social reputation "


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