# Accident today caused by Point two air jacket at Kirriemuir!



## applestroodle (10 April 2011)

I was a kirriemuir today and my mum and i were stood at the end of the x country when we both witnessed an awful accident, I think, caused by a point two area jacket. To be totally honest I am still a bit gob smacked at what actually happened that I really want to share!! 

Firstly I hope this girl which the accident happened to is ok and im sorry if anyone knows who this is but I feel I really need to tell everyone what happened. Again I hope she was ok and what a sad way to end a fab x country round. 

As i said I was standing at the end of the x country in the sun when a girl finished on a littleish horse, I didnt see name number, x country colours im afraid but her groom, mum, friend, someone ran up and congratulated them. 
The lady took the reins to lead the pony so the rider could get off, the rider then dismounted by swinging her leg over the front of the horse, its neck and didnt unattach her point two. 
The next minute there was an massive bang (first time I have heard these go off!!!) and a crack. 
The rider was head first in a pile on the ground. 
Obviously when the jacket went off it made her go rigid so she was unable to flop to the ground and as she fell she put out, the only part of her that was movable, her arm and it broke. We heard the crack and you could see the bone sticking out. 
I hope I have explained this well as im not very good with spelling, wording etc. But I feel her point two caused her to break her arm  I know she shouldnt really have dismounted the way she did. But if she hadnt being wearing she would slid to the ground.  
After seeing this its shows me that you really wouldnt be unable to tuck and roll. I dont want to start the pros and cons of point two again as we have all read them. After seeing this accident today I will not being buying one. Before this i was almost thinking about it...


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## Carefreegirl (10 April 2011)

I think the accident was caused by her NOT unclipping the clip from the saddle, the result of the accident was her breaking arm - splitting hairs I know.


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## quirky (10 April 2011)

Surely the P2 wasn't to blame, she was for not detaching the clip.

As sure as night is day, I'd put money on it that she won't make the same mistake again.

What an awful end to the day, I hope she makes a good recovery.


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## applestroodle (10 April 2011)

No your right it wasnt really to blame and id dont think she will do it again but its the fact that when it went off she was a solid inflatable weight unable to roll.


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## JoG (10 April 2011)

And the lesson learnt is - don't stick your arm out in front of you when you fall off!


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## rambling (10 April 2011)

I do hope the girl is ok , what a shame her round ended like that. 

Not really the fault of the Point 2 

a.  she didn't unclip 
b.  she dismounted incorrectly by bringing her right leg over the horses neck .


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## charlimouse (10 April 2011)

Tbh I really don't think you can say a p2 caused the accident! The girl didn't unclip the lanyard, then proceeded to get off incorrectly. Maybe it is due to the fall training I have received but I have never found the p2 prevents me from tucking and rolling. Also if she was trying to slip down the side of her horse facing away from it I think tucking and rolling would have been difficult anyway due to the lack of momentum. As for putting the arm out that was a fundamental mistake! Males you realise how training how to fall could really help a lot of people. Hope she recovers quickly and has learnt a valuable lesson!


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## millitiger (10 April 2011)

having tested my p2 out it certainly didn't inhibit my movement in the air and i was able to turn in the air to land on my back- exactly the same way I do without it on.

the accident sounds like it was caused by the girl not unclipping herself and then probably getting her leg tangled in the langard if she swung her right leg over the front of the saddle to dismount.
this accident could so easily have also happened with a neck strap or a balance strap if you get your leg caught so to blame the p2 is a bit far fetched imo.

I have also had mine inflate when getting off as I forgot to unclip- my freshly backed 4yro was not fazed by the noise and it certainly didn't change the way I landed.


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## Kokopelli (10 April 2011)

Hope she recovers but also agree that it was caused by dismounting incorrectly and not un clipping which probably got her in a tangle.


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## SusieT (10 April 2011)

So you didn't actually see if for example the horse kicked her in the arm whilst she fell off?


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## henryhorn (10 April 2011)

I never understand anyone who gets off in this way, it was one of the first things you learn is risky, it's obvious if you come off the only thing that hits the ground first is your top half, usually your head as most horses move forwards leaving you to tip off behind..
We had a livery leap off her horse last week and landed right next to a youngster, who then leapt about five feet skywards as it happened so suddenly. My husband told her off as he could have ended up injured as a result.
 It's not clever and sorry as I am for the rider's injury there is no-one to blame but herself. 
You can't blame the jackets, it's like saying the car is to blame if the driver fails to apply the brakes!
Hopefully the resulting publicity will remind riders to unclip the jacket and get off in the normal fashion..


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## TarrSteps (10 April 2011)

I think most of us have got off that way at some point, but it's one of those lessons you learn - the "right" way is right for a reason.  A very famous American jumper rider/coach got very badly hurt that way - he kicked his leg over the neck but got his spur caught in the neck strap of the martingale and ended up underneath the panicked horse, sustaining major injuries to his pelvis and ribs.  He is an absolute stickler for doing things by the book so it was a good reminder that while everyone has stupid moments with horses, sometimes you DON'T just get away with it.

Very sorry for the girl but it sounds a bit like it might have gone wrong no matter what she'd been wearing.


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## kerilli (10 April 2011)

poor girl. sounds grim.
i'm no fan, and obv the P2 didn't help at all in this situation, but it does sound as though her choosing to dismount that way was the start of the problem. 
must admit i sometimes used to get off horses this way but very rarely and only on a horse i trusted absolutely, wouldn't now because i might not be able to control how hard i came down on my dodgy knee...
tbh better that she broke her arm than her neck, so sticking her arm out was probably the best thing to do in that situation if she couldn't tuck and roll (that bit doesn't surprise me).  did the horse jump, btw, did that contribute to her losing her balance? i think they go off quite loudly but some people say they're not loud...


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## MillionDollar (10 April 2011)

I really don't understand why these jackets get so much stick?


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## kerilli (10 April 2011)

MillionDollar said:



			I really don't understand why these jackets get so much stick?
		
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have you seen their ad on the back page of this month's Eventing? or in H&H 2 weeks ago? that's a good start... better not say any more!


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## OneInAMillion (10 April 2011)

I have to admit I used to dismount like that (I don't know why!) But one time as I swung my leg the horse I was on turned his head and I got my foot caught in the rein, by this point I couldn't stop myself moving and not only severely strained the muscles in my thigh I bashed my head and face on the floor. Hence why i NEVER do it now! (Horse was not to blame at all)


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## quirky (10 April 2011)

kerilli said:



			have you seen their ad on the back page of this month's Eventing? or in H&H 2 weeks ago? that's a good start... better not say any more!
  

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They have been rapped on the knuckles by the ASA for their advertising now haven't they?


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## kerilli (10 April 2011)

quirky said:



			They have been rapped on the knuckles by the ASA for their advertising now haven't they?
		
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Erm yes, they have, for the ads they put out last year!


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## smurf (10 April 2011)

SusieT said:



			So you didn't actually see if for example the horse kicked her in the arm whilst she fell off?
		
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I was there too, saw the whole thing. The horse never moved an inch. She swung her leg over the front of the saddle, did not unclip the P2, it went off, she hit the deck - HARD, loud crack and then lots and lots of wails and howls and she appeared to have a broken arm.

Horse was no way to blame. 100% rider I'm afraid, but P2 did not help.


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## Optimist (10 April 2011)

I was standing 10ft away from someone yesterday at Weston Park who did exactly the same thing EXCEPT she got off properly.  Result?  One inflated air bag, one totally disinterested horse, one rider cross with herself for being so stupid and therefore needing to buy a new gas cannister.

Whilst I am hugely sympathetic to the rider with the broken arm it is grossly unfair to blame the P2 - if you failed to put your hat on correctly would you blame it if you had a fall resulting in a head injury?


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## cptrayes (10 April 2011)

MillionDollar said:



			I really don't understand why these jackets get so much stick?
		
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Because they cost £450ish and subconsciously people are trying to convince themselves that they should not buy one.


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## Derfette (10 April 2011)

I must agree with everyone else. The Point 2 was not to blame for this very unfortunate accident. It was doing exactly was it was designed to do, inflate as soon as the rider got separated from the saddle, wether by way of dismounting or having a fall.

Really hope she gets better soon!!


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## herewego (10 April 2011)

I had a nasty fall last week and am really glad I had my Point 2 on!!


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## Roasted Chestnuts (10 April 2011)

She didnt unclip it, She got off wrong, then she broke her arm.

As far as I am concerned it was her own fault. What would have been blamed if she hadnt been wearing the air jacket??? Her BP???

As nasty as it sounds she will learn a lesson get off right. I do feel sorry for her her arm bust be killing her and I hope it heals ok, wouldnt wish harm on anyone but sometimes the only way to learn is by making mistakes


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## MegaBeast (10 April 2011)

cptrayes said:



			Because they cost £450ish and subconsciously people are trying to convince themselves that they should not buy one.
		
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not really - there are claims being made which aren't substantiated.  And I personally have grave reservations about the possibility of the rapid deflation causing destabilisation of fractures.  Oh, and the fact that they don't prevent fatal crush injuries.  They probably do protect from bruising but that seems to be it.

Anyway, back to the thread, poor girl but pretty daft thing to do.  Don't know if she was wearing spurs but if so swinging your leg over the horses would be a pretty daft thing to do P2 or no P2 as how easy would it be to catch a spur in martingale/breastplate?  Can't really blame it on the P2 imho.


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## blue2262 (10 April 2011)

I am tired of all the crit they get.
Tuck and roll onto hard ground or fall a bit flat onto equivalent of an air bed? 
You choose, I know what I would prefer!


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## blue2262 (10 April 2011)

Surely the important thing is that the injury is likely to be less severe than if one was not being worn. I really can't accept that there is any real risk that it can make injury worse!
I agree that they are expensive, but compared to the cost of eventing for a season it is not so significant.


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## ihatework (10 April 2011)

blue2262 said:



			I am tired of all the crit they get.
Tuck and roll onto hard ground or fall a bit flat onto equivalent of an air bed? 
You choose, I know what I would prefer!
		
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Me too!
Can't say I like their marketing campaign, but I have nothing against the product.
My money is on them preventing far more injuries than they are being speculated to possibly create. I suspect an air jacket will be on my shopping list at some point in the future.


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## cptrayes (10 April 2011)

MegaBeast said:



			not really - there are claims being made which aren't substantiated.  And I personally have grave reservations about the possibility of the rapid deflation causing destabilisation of fractures.  Oh, and the fact that they don't prevent fatal crush injuries.  They probably do protect from bruising but that seems to be it.
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They help stop you breaking your neck - is that not a major protection not offered by BETA 3 protectors?

And if they don't protect from crush injuries how on earth do you explain the video on the home page of the Point Two website of a maximum height rotational fall directly onto the rider who gets up and walks away?

They don't deflate rapidly. The rush of CO2 under pressure produces an ice plug which then melts and, under much lower pressure, the jacket goes down much more slowly than it goes up. 

I don't have one but I plan to hunt in one when I am older and less strong than I am now.

I wonder if people should declare their interest before they post about Point Two. I'm aware of one poster who is sponsored by a standard body protector  product. Anyone else here got conflicts of interests?


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## walker1234 (11 April 2011)

I've just invested in one, a rider get bucked off yesterday onto very hard ground landed flat on her back P2 went off and she got up and walked away.  Jacket takes an age to deflate actually.

They don't protect you from fatal falls, no.  What does?  But used with a normal BP they offer extra protection which is priceless.

Havent seen their adverts btw - what are they about??


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## trakehnersrock! (11 April 2011)

I have a Hippios air jacket (got it 4 years ago when we bought a 4yo huge Trakehner mare, me being a more 'mature' rider lol) so neutral re the make but very positive re the principle. It has only had to go off once, when she bucked me off 2 years ago on a hack at a walk going up a hill, it came out of nowhere so sat to the first two humungous bucks, third got me unstable and fourth out the window! BUT I landed on very hard stony ground and got up without a bruise, which is the whole point isn't it?  It deflates over about 5 mins, just the time to walk back to the yard in this instance, said horse having bu**ered off home without me (cue call on mobile from girl at yard " Perzka is here, where are you?")
Yes, you have to train yourself to remember to unclip, but it's not rocket science after all


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## Kokopelli (11 April 2011)

blue2262 said:



			I am tired of all the crit they get.
Tuck and roll onto hard ground or fall a bit flat onto equivalent of an air bed? 
You choose, I know what I would prefer!
		
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Agree with this, the amount of threads started purely to slate P2 gets a bit tiresome.


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## ecrozier (11 April 2011)

I think a lot of the posters on here who do have issues with the p2 are not anti the product in principle but do have issues with the marketing etc. That's certainly where I am. I am in the (fortunate?) position of owning an exo and being very comfortable going xc in it, so I can't wear one anyway. I would probably get one, and wear it coupled with a kanteq if I could no longer use my exo for any reason. I guess from my point of view the first thing I would like to be protected against is major injury, and a solid cage ie exo is best for this, not sure that can really be denied. Secondary thought is the things like broken ribs, bruising. If I could wear an air jacket on top, maybe I would? Not sure and as yet it's not an issue. I will be watching with interest to seeif the one being developed with air bags and a cage is ever brought to Market!


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## Groom42 (11 April 2011)

This weekend I watched a rider schooling a young horse XC wearing nothing other than a P2  Firstly, I was surprised that a schooling course accepted this - I was under the impression that all courses specified that a level3 BP _had_ to be worn.  Later, chatting to the proprietor, I was told that they could only _recommend_ clients wore one, and their insurance made no mention of a compulsory BP.  The proprietor was also under the impression that the P2 _was_ a BP.  Advice given  Secondly, I was also puzzled as to why _anyone_ would take _any_ horse (never mind a youngster) XC without a BP, particularly someone who relies upon their own fitness and continuing health to earn a living? It may well have been a gloriously sunny day, but surely far better to continue to enjoy the weather outside, rather than confined to a hospital bed?

(On a positive note..............the proprietor had spent the best part of the weekend securely pinning down all his portables  )


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## cptrayes (11 April 2011)

Because lots of us learnt to ride in the days when they didn't exist and feel perfectly happy without one.

The Point Two IS a body protector. It doesn't operate unless you have fallen off (or failed to unclip it as you dismount  ) but if you haven't fallen off you don't need it, do you????


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## flyingfeet (11 April 2011)

Just to add my two penneth 

A well respected hunting lady did just this (without a P2), on concrete and horse spooked and result was a wheel chair for a few months

This is not a good method of dismounting, even if some people consider it looks cool


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## NeverSayNever (11 April 2011)

they aren't a BP. you need a BP as well (which is rule in BE) because there is always a chance under certain circumstances they wont inflate.


i now have a big problem with the marketing and have decided to watch what happens with them over the next year or so before i decide if im going to get one.


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## kirstyhen (11 April 2011)

I don't see how being sponsored by a BP manufacturer makes your opinion any less valid. The point 2 is recommended to be worn with a BETA 3 BP as it does not provide the required level of protection on it's own to be a Level 3 BP (required for any XC competition) Therefore is not in competition with any brand of BP.

As for the girl, I've fallen on my face serval (thousand times) and broken my elbow and shoulder as a result, nothing was to blame except my own stupid lack of coordination!


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## jonny (11 April 2011)

blue2262 said:



			I am tired of all the crit they get.
Tuck and roll onto hard ground or fall a bit flat onto equivalent of an air bed? 
You choose, I know what I would prefer!
		
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I totally agree with you. The amount of crit that people spend their time writing on here is honestly a complete waste of time... it gets them absolutely no where and really can't see the point in it/what there trying to achieve. Yes people may say they are trying to inform people about the downfalls, but I'm sure most people that post on here are extremely capable of making informed decisions.


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## Laafet (11 April 2011)

Jen_Cots said:



			Just to add my two penneth 

A well respected hunting lady did just this (without a P2), on concrete and horse spooked and result was a wheel chair for a few months

This is not a good method of dismounting, even if some people consider it looks cool
		
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I get off this way a lot, not because it looks cool, I got used to doing it sidesaddle as that is the only way off but mainly because my knees hurt so much now that I either get off on the mounting block, swing my leg over the front or ride (yes ride) into my stable and get off the normal way on my horses rubber mats. I am not stupid but my knees hurt so much when I get off it is the best way.


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## brushingboots (11 April 2011)

blue2262 said:



			I am tired of all the crit they get.
Tuck and roll onto hard ground or fall a bit flat onto equivalent of an air bed? 
You choose, I know what I would prefer!
		
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This

My point two saved me from breaking a hideously large amount of ribs when me and B both went down, and when i fell off Min backwards. 

If you don't like them, then don't get into posts about them. People are wise enough to make their own choices about what to do with their own body and money. If a person wants to have one to enhance their safety, then what does it have to do with anyone else?

Like previous threads about P2, it's turned into a slagging match against the company and has completely diverted from the original topic!

 I hope the girl in question is ok, although it does sound like the way she got off was more to blame.


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## RuthnMeg (11 April 2011)

I am not anti P2, but I am anti the price. If P2 were not so expensive then I may just consider getting one, until then its a no go. For that I think it is sad because it prices me out of being 'safe' (r).
As for the rider in question, I feel sorry for her. Her own fault maybe for dismounting that way (makes my blood boil when I see people doing that, but hey ho) but no body deserves a painful injury. It does seem that her P2 did hinder her dismount, a negative for the product. Other people may just do the same, forgetting to unclip the watsit, we are only human after all.
Hope she makes a qucick recovery.


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## sprite1978 (11 April 2011)

In normal circumstance the p2 will only go off When you are seperated from the horse. If you dissmount correctly, you will be balanced to an extent. if you have forgotten to detatch the lanyard, you will be leaning forward, and your legswould be pointing down in the right direction when it goes off. you will be in a better position to just land on your feet.

Swinging your leg over the horses neck, you will interfere with the lanyard, and inflate the jacket when you are still on the top of the saddle, in a very unbalanced position.


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## supagran (11 April 2011)

MegaBeast said:



			not really - there are claims being made which aren't substantiated.  And I personally have grave reservations about the possibility of the rapid deflation causing destabilisation of fractures.  Oh, and the fact that they don't prevent fatal crush injuries.  They probably do protect from bruising but that seems to be it.

Anyway, back to the thread, poor girl but pretty daft thing to do.  Don't know if she was wearing spurs but if so swinging your leg over the horses would be a pretty daft thing to do P2 or no P2 as how easy would it be to catch a spur in martingale/breastplate?  Can't really blame it on the P2 imho.
		
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I was talking to an Air Ambulance paramedic last week and they say the P2's are the best thing that's happened to the horse industry - So glad now that 's I bought one.


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## MagicMelon (11 April 2011)

Ouch, sounds awful.  What a shame after she'd just finished too!  I must admit I sometimes dismount that way (throwing leg over the front) which is bad, I ripped the buttons of my show jacket last year by them getting caught on my saddle on the way down hence why I do it sometimes (will think again now).  I personally wouldnt use one of these point 2's because the noise of it going off I think would seriously spook my horse - that would encourage him to tank off after I'd fallen.  I have also seen one go off when someone had a bit of a flying jump, they had to get it off pronto then carry on round the course!


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## stacey_lou (11 April 2011)

As awfull as her accident was ditto to other comments if she had of gotton of the correct way then she would have landed on her feet and been ok. Hopefully she will learn from her mistake. 

I will be purchasing mine this year just saving the pennies for one in my Xc colour, I think they are a fantastic idea and I was most shocked when I was told how resonibly prices the re-placement canisters were. 
At the end of the day they may be pricey but you have to weigh up how much do you value you ability to walk and run. me very much so to the point that yes I would happily spend £600 to save myself from a broken back and a life in a wheel chair should I come of across country. 
Look at Ollie!


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## Maesfen (11 April 2011)

Sounds like it was self inflicted by carelessness and not the jackets fault at all.


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## Luci07 (11 April 2011)

I agree although its a shame that they are still priced so highly out of most peoples reach. I do understand why (the previous research etc) but wondered if anyone knew if there was a patent on these jackets? Competition breeding better pricing etc!


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## stacey_lou (11 April 2011)

Luci07 said:



			I agree although its a shame that they are still priced so highly out of most peoples reach. I do understand why (the previous research etc) but wondered if anyone knew if there was a patent on these jackets? Competition breeding better pricing etc!
		
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I have seen another company making a simlar version of this air jacket but I could tell you what catalgue I saw it in. maybe robinsons?
Silly really if they do not patent on it


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## cptrayes (11 April 2011)

The other jacket is the hit-air. It's a lot cheaper. It doesn't inflate quite as fast and is a bit "clunkier" in the design still, to look at, but it's a LOT less money. You can get them on eBay for around the £200 mark.

I can't understand the people saying these air vests are not body protectors. What the h*ll do people think they are then - chocolate teapots??


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## Thistle (11 April 2011)

Apparently both the P2 and the hitair take the same time to inflate, it's just that P2 measure to the start of inflation and HA to fully inflated.


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## Oscar (11 April 2011)

I saw an Olympic eventer last summer (wont name names!) practically fling himself off his horse whilst wearing a P2 without unclipping and I was expecting him to inflate - but no the cord stretched and he casually unclipped it and walked away - his groom had his horse!!

So I wonder how much give or leway there is before you inflate?


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## Kokopelli (11 April 2011)

HorseyLad said:



			I saw an Olympic eventer last summer (wont name names!) practically fling himself off his horse whilst wearing a P2 without unclipping and I was expecting him to inflate - but no the cord stretched and he casually unclipped it and walked away - his groom had his horse!!

So I wonder how much give or leway there is before you inflate?
		
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With the adults it takes 8 stone and the normal childs is 6 stone. (The smaller child sizes are less than this though but not sure)


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## kerilli (11 April 2011)

stacey_lou said:



			As awfull as her accident was ditto to other comments if she had of gotton of the correct way then she would have landed on her feet and been ok. Hopefully she will learn from her mistake. 

I will be purchasing mine this year just saving the pennies for one in my Xc colour, I think they are a fantastic idea and I was most shocked when I was told how resonibly prices the re-placement canisters were. 
At the end of the day they may be pricey but you have to weigh up how much do you value you ability to walk and run. me very much so to the point that yes I would happily spend £600 to save myself from a broken back and a life in a wheel chair should I come of across country. 
Look at Ollie!
		
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Agree about the first part. 
Not so sure about the second. 
Look at Ollie? hmm, look at the series of head-on pictures again very carefully, he was very secure in the saddle so hadn't fallen far enough away to pull the cord... his Champion hat and his Champion bp 'saved his life' if anything did. the P2 didn't inflate until the horse started rolling off him, you can see it in the head-on sequence of pics.
it can't be guaranteed to save you from a broken back, life in a wheelchair, or crush injuries. bruising and soreness, yes. the rest, no, unfortunately.


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## walker1234 (11 April 2011)

stacey_lou said:



			I will be purchasing mine this year just saving the pennies for one in my Xc colour, I think they are a fantastic idea and I was most shocked when I was told how resonibly prices the re-placement canisters were. !
		
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The coloured ones are now on offer for the same price as the black - and if you buy it off treehouse then £10 cheaper than buying direct.


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## popsdosh (11 April 2011)

cptrayes said:



			The other jacket is the hit-air. It's a lot cheaper. It doesn't inflate quite as fast and is a bit "clunkier" in the design still, to look at, but it's a LOT less money. You can get them on eBay for around the £200 mark.

I can't understand the people saying these air vests are not body protectors. What the h*ll do people think they are then - chocolate teapots??
		
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The reason they are not accepted as BPs is the simple reason they do not inflate in all circumstances.There fine unless you are not seperated from your horse in a rotational I have yet to actually see a fall were you can say a point2 saved a life.As I think you will agree the only foolproof BP is a solid one so to speak.I think the unfortunate team chasing accident did a lot to show that p2s will not protect from crush injuries.
The people who are saying that point2 should be patented it may be difficult as they copied the other design and tweaked it slightly.


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## cptrayes (11 April 2011)

popsdosh said:



			The reason they are not accepted as BPs is the simple reason they do not inflate in all circumstances.There fine unless you are not seperated from your horse in a rotational I have yet to actually see a fall were you can say a point2 saved a life.As I think you will agree the only foolproof BP is a solid one so to speak.I think the unfortunate team chasing accident did a lot to show that p2s will not protect from crush injuries.
The people who are saying that point2 should be patented it may be difficult as they copied the other design and tweaked it slightly.
		
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They ARE body protectors. They are not an acceptable standard for BE on their own but they ARE body protectors!!!!  They are not BETA 3, no, but they are body protectors. What else do you think they are - lifejackets???????

I think you should be VERY careful accusing a company online of copying someone else's ideas unless you can substantiate that. I am pretty sure they have a licence to use the technology or a patentable design of their own.

There is NO foolproof body protector, no-one is claiming that there is and it's a complete mystery why the darn thing raises so much negative criticism. All I can put it down to is that subconsciously no-one wants to be reminded of how dangerous riding really is, and also subconsciously they want them not to be as useful as they are, because then they would be forced to admit that they need to save up and buy one. 

If you want to see a fall which looks to me like it may well have saved a life, check the home page of Point Two - the horse cartwheels its whole backside, from full height rotational fall straight onto the inflated airbag around the chest and neck of the rider. She was unhurt.


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## MegaBeast (11 April 2011)

cptrayes said:



			And if they don't protect from crush injuries how on earth do you explain the video on the home page of the Point Two website of a maximum height rotational fall directly onto the rider who gets up and walks away?
		
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What about Jo Rugman who was killed recently at a team chase?  And there have been people who've survived rotationals and walked away with only minimal level body protectors/nothing at all.  There are far too many variables to take into consideration.  And no, I have no vested interedt.


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## cptrayes (11 April 2011)

MegaBeast said:



			What about Jo Rugman who was killed recently at a team chase?  And there have been people who've survived rotationals and walked away with only minimal level body protectors/nothing at all.  There are far too many variables to take into consideration.  And no, I have no vested interedt.
		
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OFFS no-one said they were a miracle! A person wearing one gets killed and it's the jackets fault - what planet are you on - is there video of the horse landing on Jo's inflated jacket to show how she was killed? How many people have now been killed or broken their backs or necks and lived, crippled, wearing a standard one? People are still killed in cars fitted with airbags - some are even killed BY the airbags - but you aren't complaining about that are you? 

If you don't want one don't buy one, but this comment is just dumb, sorry.


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## kerilli (11 April 2011)

MegaBeast said:



			What about Jo Rugman who was killed recently at a team chase?  And there have been people who've survived rotationals and walked away with only minimal level body protectors/nothing at all.  There are far too many variables to take into consideration.  And no, I have no vested interest.
		
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ditto this. it is possible to be extremely lucky and get away with it. or not. i've seen rotationals that i would have expected to lead to serious injuries or worse, and the rider was fine.
without stringent testing it is absolutely impossible to know. it's all hearsay and conjecture, and wishful thinking perhaps.
and i have absolutely no vested interest either. i'm not sure who the comment earlier on this thread was aimed at, that someone is sponsored by a bp company, but it isn't me.

i have no problem facing up to the dangers of what we do. that's why i'm so concerned about them. i'd LOVE LOVE LOVE to believe that they're the absolute answer to preventing serious injuries in riders. but, i know the names of 3 riders who have sustained fractured vertebrae while wearing one, and since paralysis frightens me far more than bruising, i won't wear one, i'll stick to my Exo.


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## moosehunter (11 April 2011)

No amount/type of body protectors can protect people from themselves. AS for cocky dismounts- pride comes before a fall. 

As for how good point 2's are- my mate fell off. Jacket did bang loudly and then she was rolling around like a turtle on the floor for a good 5 mins til it deflated- l

ots of time to see if she was ok, laugh, take the mick (and a photo) and reflect on the fact that we wouldn't be laughing hysterically if she hadn't had it on. 

Anything that helps safety I say!


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## cptrayes (11 April 2011)

kerilli said:



			but, i know the names of 3 riders who have sustained fractured vertebrae while wearing one, and since paralysis frightens me far more than bruising, i won't wear one, i'll stick to my Exo.
		
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That would concern me and I would hope that is being investigated properly.  Regarding testing, do you discount the immense amount of testing that went into them as motorcycle body protectors before they were converted to horse use? 

I tried an Exo but I felt that the weight of it would make it more likely for me to fall off if I got seriously out of balance. Are they still being sold, I haven't seen them anywhere for ages?


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## MegaBeast (11 April 2011)

kerilli said:



			but, i know the names of 3 riders who have sustained fractured vertebrae while wearing one, and since paralysis frightens me far more than bruising, i won't wear one, i'll stick to my Exo.
		
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and having seen a horrific fall right in front of me recently where the rider was crushed against a step, the horse killed and the riders air jacket did not inflate I'm not convinced the benefits outweigh the potential downsides, there's certainly benefit when it doesn't inflate in time or indeed at all!  You go down with the horse and there's no air jacket in existence that is going to save you.

I don't deny they prevent/reduce bruising but I'm not interested in that nor is that how they're generally perceived.  I don't doubt that everyone can make their own decisions but I don't think all the facts are readily available and they have been marketed misleadingly.  I'm sure plenty of people have had less severe falls and not been sore afterwards, but I'm more concerned with crush injuries and broken verterbrae.


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## MegaBeast (11 April 2011)

cptrayes said:



			That would concern me and I would hope that is being investigated properly.  Regarding testing, do you discount the immense amount of testing that went into them as motorcycle body protectors before they were converted to horse use?
		
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But the type of fall from a motorbike is quite different to a rotational horse fall.  In the situation where you're fired out of the saddle then I'm sure they're very good and reduce bruising etc.  But in a situation where the horse rotates whilst you're still in the saddle (iie potential crush injuries and broken verterbrae) they're not going to do a lot unless you fall to one side of the horse and hopefully trigger it.  It's a totally different scenario to that of a motorbike.


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## cptrayes (11 April 2011)

They have been well proven to prevent serious injuries to the back of the kind you mention in motorcycle riders - do you think this doesn't carry through to horse riders?  (edit - we cross posted - I see strong comparisons between a horse landing on a person to a bike slamming you at 50 mph into the side of a car who's turned across your path)

I am swayed somewhat by the number of top level pros, who are riding all day and every day, who have them on. When I last marshalled a cross country, every pro rider seemed to be wearing one. With their level of experience of falls, I wouldn't expect them to have the nuisance of using one unless they felt it was of measurable benefit.

I have no vested interest either, in fact I have been in a fall with one on where it did not inflate, (since when they have changed the design) but I am very intrigued at the sheer strength of feeling against them, which seems to me to be somewhat irrational at times!


edit again - it would, of course, be totally unreasonable to expect it to provide protection when you have not departed from the horse. If that kind of fall worries people buy an Exo (which I reckon will make it more likely you'll fall off anyway) or give up eventing!


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## cptrayes (11 April 2011)

MegaBeast said:



			the potential downsides.
		
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Cost.
Having to put on a second body protector, which is very easily clip-fastened.

Are there others?


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## MegaBeast (11 April 2011)

cptrayes said:



			I am swayed somewhat by the number of top level pros, who are riding all day and every day, who have them on. When I last marshalled a cross country, every pro rider seemed to be wearing one. With their level of experience of falls, I wouldn't expect them to have the nuisance of using one unless they felt it was of measurable benefit.
		
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Although none of the NZ riders do fwiw.  I believe a lot of the pros generally wear them to avoid bruising etc to enable them to carry on in comfort. 



cptrayes said:



			I have no vested interest either, in fact I have been in a fall with one on where it did not inflate, (since when they have changed the design) but I am very intrigued at the sheer strength of feeling against them, which seems to me to be somewhat irrational at times!
		
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I was very much swaying in the balance until the recent advertising campaign.  If they had a product they believed in it wouldn't need to be marketed that way and they wouldn't panic at having a competitor added into the market.  



cptrayes said:



			edit again - it would, of course, be totally unreasonable to expect it to provide protection when you have not departed from the horse. If that kind of fall worries people buy an Exo (which I reckon will make it more likely you'll fall off anyway) or give up eventing!
		
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I agree witht the first point - but they market it as "saving" a rider in the event of a rotational.  It's the only kind of fall where the extra protection is merited in my mind.  Bruising and short term discomfort isn't really the issue for me.


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## MegaBeast (11 April 2011)

cptrayes said:



			Cost.
Having to put on a second body protector, which is very easily clip-fastened.

Are there others?
		
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being made into a human lawn dart?  I'm sure there was a rider who gained a fractured neck wearing one who was quoted as saying they believed it had been caused because they were held in a rigid position.  The deflating, and also the false sense of protection they give people.  I'm not convinced by them at all.  Oh, and I also don't like the way they inflate inwards - if you look at previous threads there has been mention of the body being the jam in the sandwich as there's nothing holding the two halves apart, explained much better than that!  But, fwiw, I do like the look of the RS/P2 hybrid.


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## cptrayes (11 April 2011)

MegaBeast said:



			Although none of the NZ riders do fwiw.  I believe a lot of the pros generally wear them to avoid bruising etc to enable them to carry on in comfort.
		
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But surely if a person has no bruise where they would have had a bruise, then they will have a small bruise where they would have had a big bruise, and they will have a big bruise where they would have had a broken rib, and they will have a broken rib or ribs instead of a completely caved in chest?

Is that not logical?

I see your point about the inability to curl. I have a natural curl reflex myself that has saved me injury many a time and it would concern me if that was stopped.....  but surely the pro riders wouldn't wear them if that was the case as their lives/livelihoods would be at greater risk and they would know that by now, with the length of time they have had them and the number of falls they have taken?


edit - the inflation inwards is a matter of sizing. The people who were squeezed too much were wearing one too small.


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## MegaBeast (11 April 2011)

cptrayes said:



			But surely if a person has no bruise where they would have had a bruise, then they will have a small bruise where they would have had a big bruise, and they will have a big bruise where they would have had a broken rib, and they will have a broken rib or ribs instead of a completely caved in chest?

Is that not logical?
		
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It is so far as it goes... but the scenario where you'll be hit with enough force to cave in your chest is where the horse is probably on you in which case the jacket won't have inflated so back to where we started!  I agree that you might get a big bruise rather than broken ribs if fired out of the saddle but they're not really the life threatening injuries.  So still the benefits don't outweigh the potential downsides for me.  (should probably add that I simply don't bruise, even if kicked, hit over the head with a squash racket etc so I am the exception!)



cptrayes said:



			I see your point about the inability to curl. I have a natural curl reflex myself that has saved me injury many a time and it would concern me if that was stopped.....
		
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Some people say you can, some say you can't, I personally don't see how you can curl to the same extent that you can without.  Comes back to the need for basic fall training, it seems a lot of people don't know how to fall and lack the natural curl reflex.  Look at jockeys and how few serious injuries they get per fall.


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## MegaBeast (11 April 2011)

cptrayes said:



			edit - the inflation inwards is a matter of sizing. The people who were squeezed too much were wearing one too small.
		
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They actually changed the way they make them so they inflate outwards - it says either on the website about the childs one or in their bit on the ASA complaint, can't remember where I read it now.


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## cptrayes (11 April 2011)

MegaBeast said:



			They actually changed the way they make them so they inflate outwards - it says either on the website about the childs one or in their bit on the ASA complaint, can't remember where I read it now.
		
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Ummmm - so why did you write "Oh, and I also don't like the way they inflate inwards -"  a couple of posts ago then?????

If they inflate outwards and people are too squeezed then they have the wrong size on.


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## MegaBeast (11 April 2011)

cptrayes said:



			Ummmm - so why did you write "Oh, and I also don't like the way they inflate inwards -"  a couple of posts ago then?????

If they inflate outwards and people are too squeezed then they have the wrong size on.
		
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sorry, mis wrote what I meant - the childs one has been changed (to inflate out) but the original one hasn't (ie istill nflates in).  I would assume the new hybrid will inflate out.


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## cptrayes (11 April 2011)

MegaBeast said:



			It is so far as it goes... but the scenario where you'll be hit with enough force to cave in your chest is where the horse is probably on you in which case the jacket won't have inflated so back to where we started! 

.
		
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Have you watched the video on their home page? The jacket is up. The horse lands its bum from a full height cartwheel fall directly onto her rib cage. There are photos of other eventers in crush situations where the jacket is clearly up. The only way the jacket won't be up is if you stayed on your horse as it came down on your chest and those falls are pretty rare and only God or an Exo can help you then, if you believe in them.


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## MegaBeast (12 April 2011)

cptrayes said:



			Have you watched the video on their home page? The jacket is up. The horse lands its bum from a full height cartwheel fall directly onto her rib cage. There are photos of other eventers in crush situations where the jacket is clearly up. The only way the jacket won't be up is if you stayed on your horse as it came down on your chest and those falls are pretty rare and only God or an Exo can help you then, if you believe in them.
		
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yes I have, and have just watched it again.  It would be interesting to see it in much sharper focus and larger.  I could be wrong but I think that particular video is from the early days when the lanyard was shorter (ie the jacket will trigger sooner) - before the ideal length became based on Mary King's extreme defensive position because they found the shorter lanyard caused the jackets to trigger prematurely if a rider sat back over a drop or was slightly unseated.  There are questions that need answering and research that needs doing but there seems to be an extreme reluctance to do so which to me speaks volumes.

Yes I'm very much nit picking, but I think it's important someone does and there are some pertinent questions that should be answered. And it's important that people do realise these jackets have their limitations, which happily does seem the be the case now more so than a year ago.

Anyway, I don't think we'll never agree on this particular point but hopefully the debate has been thought provoking for all!


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## kizzywiz (12 April 2011)

popsdosh said:



Defamatory content removed.
		
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I think perhaps unless you are in possession of all the facts you should be very careful about posting things like this on a public forum.


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## kerilli (12 April 2011)

kizzywiz said:



			I think perhaps unless you are in possession of all the facts you should be very careful about posting things like this on a public forum.
		
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i suspect that popsdosh is in possession of all the facts.
fwiw nothing they have said runs counter to what i would have said. i daren't comment further.

popsdosh wrote: "How the hell can you say that the riders life was saved by the P2 when they they were also wearing a BP up to the required standard plus I have seen riders in the past get up from that sort of fall with no BP on."

Absolutely. It's unbelievable... if someone falls off in one, the reason they weren't injured (or survived at all) was because they were wearing The Magic Jacket. but if they weren't wearing one, it was down to pure luck. 
Oh, of course, because according to P2 advertising, a Beta level 3 bp is as much protection as wearing no bp at all...   
my favourite xc top must be Magic too then, because i've fallen off in it lots of times and not died, WOW, it has amazing life-protecting properties.  

cptrayes, i wear an Exo, it doesn't affect my balance in the slightest - i wouldn't wear it if it did. i totally forget i've got it on once i'm in the saddle. they've been taken out of production unfortunately, prob due to the worst scaremongering and the most useless marketing/PR i've seen in my life. there are still some left on sale if anyone wants to contact me (i don't get anything for this, i just pass the info on.)


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## HotToTrot (12 April 2011)

cptrayes said:



			it would, of course, be totally unreasonable to expect it to provide protection when you have not departed from the horse. If that kind of fall worries people buy an Exo (which I reckon will make it more likely you'll fall off anyway)
		
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]

Steady on there.  I really doubt that wearing an EXO increases the likelihood of falling off.  I've evented to N in mine and I've never felt that it has contributed to a fall. It does protect various parts of you from crush injuries which can be sustained in a rotational and, as rotationals are the most dangerous types of fall in eventing, yep, I'll take it.


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## kerilli (12 April 2011)

HotToTrot said:



			Steady on there.  I really doubt that wearing an EXO increases the likelihood of falling off.  I've evented to N in mine and I've never felt that it has contributed to a fall. It does protect various parts of you from crush injuries which can be sustained in a rotational and, as rotationals are the most dangerous types of fall in eventing, yep, I'll take it.
		
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Absolutely seconded.


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## Zebedee (12 April 2011)

kerilli said:



			Absolutely seconded.
		
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Thirded............




			cptrayes, i wear an Exo, it doesn't affect my balance in the slightest - i wouldn't wear it if it did. i totally forget i've got it on once i'm in the saddle. they've been taken out of production unfortunately, *prob due to the worst scaremongering* and the most useless marketing/PR i've seen in my life. there are still some left on sale if anyone wants to contact me (i don't get anything for this, i just pass the info on.)
		
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Just thought the above was worth repeating !


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## Santa_Claus (12 April 2011)

Zebedee said:



			Thirded............



Just thought the above was worth repeating !
		
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and Fourthed from me! my exo gets its BE first outing this weekend. I want to protect myself from rotationals and the only proven product to protect you from half a ton of horse on your chest is an exo. Easily proven infact by the designer parking a landrover on his chest! In terms of wearing it the only thing it limits me doing when wearing is looking over my shoulder due to the way it sits but that is also a combination of me suffering dodgy shoulders as well. It doesn't feel overly heavy or cumbersome at all as well.

Any other product is purely speculative in claims to protect from a rotational unless there is research/tests that shows otherwise which no one here has seen!

Yes the exo won't protect me from bruising that an air jacket might but given choice of protect from fatal crush injuries or protect from bruises I know which i will choose any day of the week. the ideal will be a combined product which from previous discussions is potentionally in the pipe line.


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## kerilli (12 April 2011)

psssst, if you're looking over your shoulder, you're in the wrong sport, only NH jockeys need to do that!  

agreed though, anyone worried about bruises probably shouldn't be eventing. i'm worried primarily about crush injuries and then paralysis, which is why i wear an Exo and would never wear an airjacket. if they ever make them compulsory i'll just have to banjax mine!


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## Santa_Claus (12 April 2011)

yes indeed only reason I would need to look round if is heard another horse coming up behind but hopefully that very rare situation  either way that restriction doesn't bother me


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## glamourpuss (12 April 2011)

kerilli said:



			i suspect that popsdosh is in possession of all the facts.
fwiw nothing they have said runs counter to what i would have said. i daren't comment further.

popsdosh wrote: "How the hell can you say that the riders life was saved by the P2 when they they were also wearing a BP up to the required standard plus I have seen riders in the past get up from that sort of fall with no BP on."

Absolutely. It's unbelievable... if someone falls off in one, the reason they weren't injured (or survived at all) was because they were wearing The Magic Jacket. but if they weren't wearing one, it was down to pure luck. 
Oh, of course, because according to P2 advertising, a Beta level 3 bp is as much protection as wearing no bp at all...   
my favourite xc top must be Magic too then, because i've fallen off in it lots of times and not died, WOW, it has amazing life-protecting properties.  

cptrayes, i wear an Exo, it doesn't affect my balance in the slightest - i wouldn't wear it if it did. i totally forget i've got it on once i'm in the saddle. they've been taken out of production unfortunately, prob due to the worst scaremongering and the most useless marketing/PR i've seen in my life. .)
		
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Waaahhhahah the line about scaremongering has made me laugh like a drain......scaremongering! What a little bit like what has been done on here with the Point 2.
Just off the top of my head we have had:
The Point 2 alters the tragectory of your fall so you are more likely to fall on your head.
The actual inflation of the Point 2 can cause injuries
The deflation of the Point 2 can cause injuries.
The sound of the Point 2 can cause injury. 

FWIW I have supported the POint2 in the past. I don't own one and now a cheaper alternative seems to be available I will probably buy that. 

When talking about spinal fractures and paralysis. The level at which this is most likely to occur is level C7-T1 and is most likely to occur as a result of hyperflexion or hyperextension at that level. NO BODY PROTECTOR IN THE WORLD (and this includes the exo!) is going to save you from that.
The second most likely cause of spinal fractures is the crush fracture. Again NO BODY PROTECTOR IN THE WORLD is going to save you from those. (although I believe that in the case of Faith Cook, having looked at the images of her fall in great depth alongside a trauma and orthopaedic consultant, that the Point 2 provided her spine with a high level stability preventing the crushed vertabrae from moving and making her injury worse) 

I do believe that we should buy what we feel happiest with and ensure we are fully aware of the limits of the protection (oo-er that sounds rude!) that we buy. 

The exo appears to protect the chest region from crush injuries. However I haven't seen people jumping up and down demanding the proof of this from Exo that they have from Point 2. Oh and the driving of the car onto the person wearing the Exo doesn't was with  me I'm afraid, it a gimmick test doesn't represent a falling force from height and belongs up there with the Point 2 and its 'can withstand a ton of force' claim.


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## stacey_lou (12 April 2011)

walker1234 said:



			The coloured ones are now on offer for the same price as the black - and if you buy it off treehouse then £10 cheaper than buying direct.
		
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Thank you very much. Ill take a look


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## Santa_Claus (12 April 2011)

glamourpuss said:



			Waaahhhahah the line about scaremongering has made me laugh like a drain......scaremongering! What a little bit like what has been done on here with the Point 2.
Just off the top of my head we have had:
The Point 2 alters the tragectory of your fall so you are more likely to fall on your head.
The actual inflation of the Point 2 can cause injuries
The deflation of the Point 2 can cause injuries.
The sound of the Point 2 can cause injury. 

FWIW I have supported the POint2 in the past. I don't own one and now a cheaper alternative seems to be available I will probably buy that. 

When talking about spinal fractures and paralysis. The level at which this is most likely to occur is level C7-T1 and is most likely to occur as a result of hyperflexion or hyperextension at that level. NO BODY PROTECTOR IN THE WORLD (and this includes the exo!) is going to save you from that.
The second most likely cause of spinal fractures is the crush fracture. Again NO BODY PROTECTOR IN THE WORLD is going to save you from those. (although I believe that in the case of Faith Cook, having looked at the images of her fall in great depth alongside a trauma and orthopaedic consultant, that the Point 2 provided her spine with a high level stability preventing the crushed vertabrae from moving and making her injury worse) 

I do believe that we should buy what we feel happiest with and ensure we are fully aware of the limits of the protection (oo-er that sounds rude!) that we buy. 

The exo appears to protect the chest region from crush injuries. However I haven't seen people jumping up and down demanding the proof of this from Exo that they have from Point 2. Oh and the driving of the car onto the person wearing the Exo doesn't was with  me I'm afraid, it a gimmick test doesn't represent a falling force from height and belongs up there with the Point 2 and its 'can withstand a ton of force' claim.
		
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Actually they did far more testing than that the car though was indeed a gimmick to try market the product.

see below link, it was tested and designed to absorb at least 650kg falling from 2m directly on top of it, i.e. a falling horse in a rotational!

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/archive/index.php/t-367813.html


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## MegaBeast (12 April 2011)

glamourpuss said:



			I do believe that we should buy what we feel happiest with and ensure we are fully aware of the limits of the protection (oo-er that sounds rude!) that we buy.
		
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I agree with this statement wholeheartedly but in my mind that is the very issue here - the limitations have been glossed over and the product presented as it will "save" you.


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## cptrayes (12 April 2011)

It is my personal opinion, having tried one on, that I would be more likely to fall off with an Exo on than without one one because of the additional weight, high over the centre of gravity, pulling you over if you become unbalanced. None of you can deny me my right to that personal opinion.  

I also think it is a serious problem that they have to be unscrewed with a fiddly little allen key (if anyone has got one) to get them off in the case of an accident requiring treatment to the chest area on the course. If you need your heart pumped, for example, then you could be dead before the paramedics could get to it without risking breaking a damaged neck by dragging it off over your head.

If you insist that the Point Two is not a body protector, can you tell me what it is then? What one or two words would you have Trading Standards insist that they call it? No jokes, please, this is a serious question because the refusal of some people on here to allow it to be called a body protector, just because it does not protect until it is activated, seems to me to be completely perverse. Is a life jacket not a life jacket because it does not inflate until you fall in the water?

Marketeers have always known "knocking copy", criticising your competitor, to be risky, but by golly it gets them some coverage on this forum, doesn't it? In another old adage "there's no such thing as bad advertising". The publicity they get just on HHO is worth a fortune and everyone complaining about them is unwittingly helping them to sell their product to a whole lot more people!

If the A list riders start giving them up, then I'd follow like a lemming. But while the ones that wear it believe it is protecting them more than just a BETA 3 does, and that they can still ride just as competitively in it at world level, (and be good to ride again tomorrow after a fall)  then I'll keep my plans to buy one when the price drops to a more easily stomached level.


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## Kokopelli (12 April 2011)

cptrayes said:



			Marketeers have always known "knocking copy", criticising your competitor, to be risky, but by golly it gets them some coverage on this forum, doesn't it? In another old adage "there's no such thing as bad advertising". The publicity they get just on HHO is worth a fortune and everyone complaining about them is unwittingly helping them to sell their product to a whole lot more people!

If the A list riders start giving them up, then I'd follow like a lemming. But while the ones that wear it believe it is protecting them more than just a BETA 3 does, I'll keep my plans to buy one when the price drops to a more easily stomached level.
		
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This. Until someone can prove with stack loads of evidence that I can do more harm by wearing a P2 than not wearing one I'll keep wearing mine knowing that I am safer than if I had a standard BP on.

Just a side note a few posters on here are very hypocritical!


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## glamourpuss (12 April 2011)

Santa_Claus said:



			Actually they did far more testing than that the car though was indeed a gimmick to try market the product.

see below link, it was tested and designed to absorb at least 650kg falling from 2m directly on top of it, i.e. a falling horse in a rotational!

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/archive/index.php/t-367813.html

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So they say they have produced results (I haven't actually seen any of these results despite extensive googling) from tests of their own devising......isn't that a 'little' bit similar to what the Point2 have done [scratches head] but from the Exo its acceptable but not from the Point2? [very confused]

Those of you that appear 'anti' point2 (or have chosen an Exo) a question if I may. People have already spoken with their wallets regarding the Exo hence why it is not being manufactured any more and there is the risk that it might not be allowed to be used for BE.
Would you rather then that people just used a Beta level 3 body protector or a Beta level 3 body protector and a 'safety air jacket'? on the off chance that the air jacket might, just might provide them with additional protection in the event of a fall?


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## kerilli (12 April 2011)

cptrayes said:



			It is my personal opinion, having tried one on, that I would be more likely to fall off with an Exo on than without one one because of the additional weight, high over the centre of gravity, pulling you over if you become unbalanced. None of you can deny me my right to that personal opinion.  

I also think it is a serious problem that they have to be unscrewed with a fiddly little allen key (if anyone has got one) to get them off in the case of an accident requiring treatment to the chest area on the course. If you need your heart pumped, for example, then you could be dead before the paramedics could get to it without risking breaking a damaged neck by dragging it off over your head.
		
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Fair enough on your first point, that's your view. I and other riders don't feel that way.

On the second point, I've had a detailed conversation about this with a v experienced event paramedic. he told me:
riders are usually young(ish!) and fit and therefore VERY unlikely to suffer heart attacks. the only reason a paramedic would need to access your chest fast, other than for crush injuries which the Exo will prevent anyway, would be for a heart attack.

why do you think you would 'need your heart pumped"?

the allen key myth is just ridiculous. there are two in green fabric pouches, either side of the Exo. ONE rider, obviously an utter chuffing muppet, did us all a huge disservice yonks ago by cutting both pouches open to examine the allen keys (?!?!) and then going off to an event without them (why?! wtf?) and telling the secretary, hence starting the whole "OMG PANNNNIIIIIICCCCCC someone's going round in a Exo, alert every fence judge, allen keys at the ready" dramarama.  

re: glamourpuss writing "Waaahhhahah the line about scaremongering has made me laugh like a drain......scaremongering! What a little bit like what has been done on here with the Point 2."

i'm against misinformation, which has happened with both products unfortunately.


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## Santa_Claus (12 April 2011)

glamourpuss said:



			So they say they have produced results (I haven't actually seen any of these results despite extensive googling) from tests of their own devising......isn't that a 'little' bit similar to what the Point2 have done [scratches head] but from the Exo its acceptable but not from the Point2? [very confused]

Those of you that appear 'anti' point2 (or have chosen an Exo) a question if I may. People have already spoken with their wallets regarding the Exo hence why it is not being manufactured any more and there is the risk that it might not be allowed to be used for BE.
Would you rather then that people just used a Beta level 3 body protector or a Beta level 3 body protector and a 'safety air jacket'? on the off chance that the air jacket might, just might provide them with additional protection in the event of a fall?
		
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the tests conducted on the Exo by the designers were as WoofWear said beyond those required of Beta. They had to design new tests because previously they did not exist. Unfortunately with the delisting of the product the press releases etc which I'm sure I have previously read have seemingly disappeared otherwise i would happily point you in their direction.

The tests though from what I can remember were basically dropping 650kg deadweight from 2 metres on to the top of the cage, so simulating the worst case scenario of a roational that being a dead horse landing on your chest from a height equivalent to a decent advanced fence with drop) the result the cage did not break/fracture in anyway etc and the internal dummy remained unmarked. Now EXO never claimed to prevent all crush injuries it claimed to prevent some and limit some others but some (i.e. legs) could not be protected from fairly obviously from the cage. This personally to me is a satisfactory test that if 650kg of horse (more than your average eventer and def more than mine!) lands on my chest I will not be squashed to death. 

As far as I'm aware the main Air jacket manufacturers have done NO tests to show they prevent crush injuries and  have basically relied on antedoctal evidence of people saying 'it saved me/them' etc yes it might have done but no one can prove it either way and as we know some people can miraculously walk away from falls that would kill another with no protection at all through pure luck, there is no factual proof (again please prove me wrong) that they do protect from crush injuries. Their test data is for impacts (either on to a rider's back or front from a height of 0.75m-1.4m which is a very small horse!) not crush situations which their website clearly states.

Personally I am slightly anti air jackets (not just one brand but all  ) as I have real concerns over destablisation of fractures during deflation. If there was a release valve which could be controlled rather than a slow release I would be far far happier with the product. That is my main concern but each to their own as long as people realise they are ultimately designed to prevent bruising and perhaps the odd broken rib from falls AND that destablisation of fractures although a small risk (but potentially very serious one) is a possibility then yes let them wear them in combination with a beta 3 level BP but personally I won't. 

all exos have two allen keys within the body which can be easily cut out if need be with a pair of scissors and they are clearly marked on either side, you also have to give a key to the event sec. Add to this if needed the front can be sufficiently lifted to allow access to the chest for chest compressions etc (well i certainly personallythink it can but I'm sure that can be debated. can't say I have never had need to try but just thinking how it fits and what you can do with it when back secured etc the front moves fairly independantly with a good range of movement!) when the rider is on their back without needing to access the keys. The main point of the key function is to allow the front to be completely removed and the back portion to be used as a backboard to stabilise the rider in event of a possible spinal injury.

And yes I do realise in a few years time when BE will enfore the BETA 2000 standards for BPs I will be forced to ditch my EXO but I hope by then that maybe the next generation (the combined cage/air bag) BP will have been developed. If not I will go back to just a standard level3 BP (or then standard equiv) unless the air jackets have altered their design.


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## Kokopelli (12 April 2011)

Santa_Claus said:



			And yes I do realise in a few years time when BE will enfore the BETA 2000 standards for BPs I will be forced to ditch my EXO but I hope by then that maybe the next generation *(the combined cage/air bag)* BP will have been developed. If not I will go back to just a standard level3 BP (or then standard equiv) unless the air jackets have altered their design.
		
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^ That would be a bloody good product. I'm surprised no one has come up with it yet.


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## Santa_Claus (12 April 2011)

There is apparently one already in development


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## Kokopelli (12 April 2011)

That sounds really good, might need to keep an eye out for it. 
Do you know what company is developing it?


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## kerilli (12 April 2011)

Kokopelli said:



			That sounds really good, might need to keep an eye out for it. 
Do you know what company is developing it?
		
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i did a post about it on here a month or two ago, it's called the Reiterprotektor and is being developed in Europe apparently.
just need to dust off my German and email the inventor and see what's happening with it. in the CAD pics it looked very short, so i'm not 100% sure they have the design right yet. will get onto it and report back!


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## cptrayes (12 April 2011)

kerilli;9562828
why do you think you would 'need your heart pumped"?
[/QUOTE said:
			
		


			You're young, aren't you ??  A British Dressage Team Member just died of heart failure.  Colleagues and acqaintances of mine have died of heart failure. At my age, and the age of some of our leading eventers, it's a definite risk. Many sportsmen are competing with arythmic hearts or faulty valves (or both), which they do not even know about and can suddenly fail (I have close personal experience of this so please don't start telling me that sportsmen would know if they had a heart condition). I believe I'm also right in saying that serious shock can stop your heart? I think you'll find a defibrillator is required equipment at every BE event? What do you think that's for????
		
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## MegaBeast (12 April 2011)

cptrayes said:



			You're young, aren't you ??  A British Dressage Team Member just died of heart failure.  Colleagues and acqaintances of mine have died of heart failure. At my age, and the age of some of our leading eventers, it's a definite risk. Many sportsmen are competing with arythmic hearts or faulty valves (or both), which they do not even know about and can suddenly fail (I have close personal experience of this so please don't start telling me that sportsmen would know if they had a heart condition). I believe I'm also right in saying that serious shock can stop your heart? I think you'll find a defibrillator is required equipment at every BE event? What do you think that's for????
		
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I think on balance that the risk of a rotational fall would be greater than the risk of heart failure during a xc round.  Although I don't know if the stats are out there, I wonder if a defib has ever been deployed at a BE event?  I would suggest that taking off a P2 + BP would take as long as taking off an exo.  Generally when someone has a heart attack/heart starts to fail their heart doesn't actually stop beating - the only time you would give CPR is if the casualty is not breathing.


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## Kokopelli (12 April 2011)

kerilli said:



			i did a post about it on here a month or two ago, it's called the Reiterprotektor and is being developed in Europe apparently.
just need to dust off my German and email the inventor and see what's happening with it. in the CAD pics it looked very short, so i'm not 100% sure they have the design right yet. will get onto it and report back!
		
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I vaguely remember now, it look brill apart from the fact it was very short. Hopefully the finished design will be longer.


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## cptrayes (12 April 2011)

MegaBeast said:



			Generally when someone has a heart attack/heart starts to fail their heart doesn't actually stop beating - the only time you would give CPR is if the casualty is not breathing.
		
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Generally when someone of my age dies of an unsuspected faulty heart valve or arythmia, the heart stops catastrophically with no warning.

Though I don't know why we are discussing this   I was asked why anyone would want to pump your heart and I replied.  It's perfectly obvious that a rotational fall is a greater risk to event riders than their heart stopping suddenly.

Let's not go getting our stopwatches out to see if it's slower to undo three clips and a couple of bits of velcro than it is to find the pocket, get an allen key out of it, find the bolts and unscrew them, it will bore everyone to death (then we might need a defbrillator  ).

The hybrid vest sounds really interesting.


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## kerilli (12 April 2011)

cptrayes said:



			You're young, aren't you ??  A British Dressage Team Member just died of heart failure.  Colleagues and acqaintances of mine have died of heart failure. At my age, and the age of some of our leading eventers, it's a definite risk. Many sportsmen are competing with arythmic hearts or faulty valves (or both), which they do not even know about and can suddenly fail (I have close personal experience of this so please don't start telling me that sportsmen would know if they had a heart condition). I believe I'm also right in saying that serious shock can stop your heart? I think you'll find a defibrillator is required equipment at every BE event? What do you think that's for????
		
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only compared to Methuselah...   

ah, right, i didn't think of that. as above though, i personally worry more about being crushed than having a heart attack. also, as long as the rider's conscious, surely the exo could usually just be undone at the sides and taken off v quickly?


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## MegaBeast (12 April 2011)

cptrayes said:



			Let's not go getting our stopwatches out to see if it's slower to undo three clips and a couple of bits of velcro than it is to find the pocket, get an allen key out of it, find the bolts and unscrew them, it will bore everyone to death (then we might need a defbrillator  ).
		
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lol, too true 

ditto the hybrid vest - sounds the best of both worlds, hopefully all the benefits without the pitfalls


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## MegaBeast (12 April 2011)

kerilli said:



			only compared to Methuselah...   

ah, right, i didn't think of that. as above though, i personally worry more about being crushed than having a heart attack. also, as long as the rider's conscious, surely the exo could usually just be undone at the sides and taken off v quickly?
		
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exactly, I was trained that if the casualty has stopped breathing then sod any fractures and start CPR so you'd just whip the exo off by any means possible if that scenario occured.  Although if the casualty is conscious then they don't need their chest pressed!!!


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