# Kevin Lemke overuse of the whip



## ester (4 March 2021)

Just me that is suprised that the announcer made no further call/they didn't ring him out again when he was clearly going to attempt the jump after elimination for blantantly using the whip in anger? Lots of people suggesting there wasn't time to stop him. . .

https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/new...0lKFI63w651W4jpbxZcVQCU7X0f_JGfp5O0r37i971lkE


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## Roasted Chestnuts (4 March 2021)

Whether or not that bell was rung he was doing his own thing. If you can blatantly in the middle of the ring beat a horse that way then someone ringing a bell isn’t going to make a difference. 

He’s needing someone to take that whip to him.


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## AdorableAlice (4 March 2021)

Hardly a reminder tap was it. Unpleasant watching.


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## ycbm (4 March 2021)

Professional horse sport isn't covering itself in glory this week,  is it? 

.


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## ester (4 March 2021)

nope!


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## Mule (4 March 2021)

ycbm said:



			Professional horse sport isn't covering itself in glory this week,  is it?

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I was just thinking that 🤦‍♀️


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## nikicb (4 March 2021)

I was just about to post this as well, but thought I would check if there was another thread first.  I just can't get my head round how a rider gets to this point.  I really just don't understand.  If they do that in public, what happens behind the scenes?  It just makes me weep.  Utterly utterly awful.


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## fetlock (4 March 2021)

If that goes on in the ring, what goes on at home?


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## mini_b (4 March 2021)

What a tosser 👎🏼


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## SashaBabe (5 March 2021)

Utterly disgusting.  I dread to think what goes on behind the scene.


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## Rowreach (5 March 2021)

That poor horse knew what was coming


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## AdorableAlice (5 March 2021)

ycbm said:



			Professional horse sport isn't covering itself in glory this week,  is it?

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And may get worse yet if Elliott gets a fine of a couple of quid and a week off.


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## AShetlandBitMeOnce (5 March 2021)

It blows my mind that people behave like this, and have the gall to do so in public! I hate to think of what goes on behind the scenes.. 
I wonder if the horse is so hot and tense because this happens with regularity or whether it is purely competition induced...


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## PapaverFollis (5 March 2021)

"My horse is unnerved by a scary looking fence, I know I will beat the **** out of him to reduce his fear of similar fences in future. That will work."

I'm pretty sure there isn't actually any thought process though.  Just white hot anger and a shaky ego being pushed.


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## ycbm (5 March 2021)

AShetlandBitMeOnce said:



			It blows my mind that people behave like this, and have the gall to do so in public! I hate to think of what goes on behind the scenes..
I wonder if the horse is so hot and tense because this happens with regularity or whether it is purely competition induced...
		
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In the 1980's I stabled with a minor non-British non-Irish Olympic level rider.  (Few people would even recognise their name today.)  But when he was waiting for me to finish riding in the indoor one evening,  my husband watched the outdoor as a horse was whipped until it drew blood.  I honestly thought we knew better these days, that was 40 years ago! 

I think it's pretty likely if this happens in public at least as bad happens at home.


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## shortstuff99 (5 March 2021)

That poor, poor horse


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## GreyMane (5 March 2021)

Awful seeing the horse just crash through the fence. Wish someone would buy the horse and take it off him.


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## shortstuff99 (5 March 2021)

They also always say 'I didn't mean it' and that 'it won't happen again ' and yet it always seems to and they clearly did mean to do it or it wouldn't have happened in the first place.


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## CanteringCarrot (5 March 2021)

For the most part, if a rider retires on course and just says this is not our day, no one really cares. The horse will have it on his record, but if there is a good competition record prior and post retire, it's not a huge concern. I'd much rather wave and say, I'm out, then beat my horse. 🙄 This tarnished his reputation far more than a retire or elimination.

I know there are pressures on professional riders and trainers, but you cannot take it out on the horse, you've got to find a better coping mechanism. If the horse isn't cut out for it, or you can't get along with it, send it along, many big name trainers do this!

Therefore, I find his actions inexcusable and he should face hefty consequences. Also not a good look for equestrian sports.


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## Kipper's Dick (5 March 2021)

Dignity, love and respect and the best of care should be at the heart of all our dealings with these incredible creatures.  We have used horses as beasts of burden, we have taken them to war, we race them against each other for our entertainment and ask them to jump higher and faster and to perform intricate movements for our pleasure.

When I saw the photograph of Elliott straddling the body of a dead racehorse I felt sickened to the stomach.  As I did when I saw pictures of Rob James 'riding' a horse that had died on the gallops.  And today I see appalling mistreatment of a horse by a German showjumper.  And I wonder, not for the first time, whether human beings deserve horses, at all.


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## AShetlandBitMeOnce (5 March 2021)

CanteringCarrot said:



			For the most part, if a rider retires on course and just says this is not our day, no one really cares. The horse will have it on his record, but if there is a good competition record prior and post retire, it's not a huge concern. I'd much rather wave and say, I'm out, then beat my horse. 🙄 This tarnished his reputation far more than a retire or elimination.
		
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Isn't this the normal human response though? Sometimes I am having a bad day, sometimes Jacob is or sometimes we both are and we both get frustrated - at which point I walk him off or go for a wander up the lane and call it a day; I assumed this is just what everyone does, it takes a very specific sort of person to think the resolution at that point is to beat them with a stick.


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## ester (5 March 2021)

GreyMane said:



			Awful seeing the horse just crash through the fence. Wish someone would buy the horse and take it off him.
		
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GreyMane said:



			Awful seeing the horse just crash through the fence. Wish someone would buy the horse and take it off him.
		
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you’d kind of hope the owner would move it anyway


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## McFluff (5 March 2021)

Yet another example that shows the risks (to horses) of combining competitive natures with lots of £££ at stake. 
Very sad.  And really tough for those who do things correctly and treat horses well.  It tarnishes the reputation of all horse sports.


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## McFluff (5 March 2021)

AShetlandBitMeOnce said:



			Isn't this the normal human response though? Sometimes I am having a bad day, sometimes Jacob is or sometimes we both are and we both get frustrated - at which point I walk him off or go for a wander up the lane and call it a day; I assumed this is just what everyone does, it takes a very specific sort of person to think the resolution at that point is to beat them with a stick.
		
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If only it was.  There are some who have such a competitive nature, they 'fight'.  And if money at stake too, the situation is even more magnified.


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## Quigleyandme (5 March 2021)

Clearly a rider who cannot control his temper or choose his behaviours. Disgusting exhibition. I was at an unaffiliated jumping competition at Combe Park some years ago and a horse annihilated an oxer. The rider, an overweight by a good few stone girl, not only repeatedly beat the horse and yanked the reins, she took her feet out of the stirrups so she could repeatedly dig and rake the horse’s flanks with her spurs. Meantime the ground crew is rebuilding the fence and the stewards and timekeepers are doing absolutely nothing so I told her to cut it out and perhaps if she lost 20lbs the horse could perform better. She screamed at me to F off and whacked the horse with all her strength again and still the stewards and audience were totally passive. She had totally lost the run of herself as they say here. I’ve never forgotten it.


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## LEC (5 March 2021)

HN wrote a good article - https://horsenetwork.com/2021/02/co...M9ByVuoEPn8jP2ZDIssxEfoDHsUtHpFCeK7JDgAkpOjKE 

I have been discussing with friends this week complicit silence in horses. It happens day in and day out. I have done it myself at an event when a top pro knocked seven bells out of a horse for it just having a pole in the warm up. It makes me uncomfortable that we are all complicit. There should be better protocols in place but there is a high risk of being blackballed if you do say anything. You might not even realise it has happened. Grooms who leave top riders yards (all much admired ones on social media) because they don’t like the treatment of the horses but again say nothing because it’s impossible to report and for anyone to follow up. 

This kind of behaviour in the ring at least is governed and can be sanctioned.


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## Nicnac (5 March 2021)

LEC said:



			HN wrote a good article - https://horsenetwork.com/2021/02/co...M9ByVuoEPn8jP2ZDIssxEfoDHsUtHpFCeK7JDgAkpOjKE

I have been discussing with friends this week complicit silence in horses. It happens day in and day out. I have done it myself at an event when a top pro knocked seven bells out of a horse for it just having a pole in the warm up. It makes me uncomfortable that we are all complicit. There should be better protocols in place but there is a high risk of being blackballed if you do say anything. You might not even realise it has happened. Grooms who leave top riders yards (all much admired ones on social media) because they don’t like the treatment of the horses but again say nothing because it’s impossible to report and for anyone to follow up.

This kind of behaviour in the ring at least is governed and can be sanctioned.
		
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Yes I'd read that article before H&H published theirs.  I was hopeful not to have to see the evidence.  I wouldn't hesitate calling it out.  I FJ quite a bit at BE and always report over use of the whip.  There's a huge difference between a tap on the shoulder coming into a fence and a swift tap on the bum if the horse hasn't been as reactive as they should after a fence to what Lemke did.

Part of me wishes he'd had a nasty fall when the horse pecked but then it would probably have been even worse for the horse afterwards.  Vile little man.


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## Velcrobum (5 March 2021)

Some years ago at a now defunct BE event held at a large equestrian centre a high ranking (Olympic) French rider was seen kicking a horse in the stomach in the lorry park. It either had a stop or lots of poles down in SJ. This was swiftly reported by two people to the organiser and the BE steward. Rider was called to see the BE steward who tried to discuss discretely what had been seen. Gallic temper tantrum ensued with much loud swearing at BE steward which drew a crowd. He was immediately eliminated from the event, the organiser/owner of the venue promptly told him to get off the property with all his horses and banned said rider from ever using the facilities ever again. This particular BE event was Pre-novice, Novice and Intermediate and a "soft educational venue".

I have complained to the BE steward more than once or twice when I have seen abuse of a horse as a competitor. As a BE dressage writer I have backed judges up when they have reported/eliminated riders for horse abuse - these were professional riders at Advanced level!!  These days with everyone having a camera phone it is easy to record abuse and get something done.


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## suestowford (7 March 2021)

This is worse than the Gordon Elliott picture. At least the Irish horse could no longer feel anything.
I'd like to think this SJ rider would be hanging his head in shame but I doubt he will be.


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## Rumtytum (7 March 2021)

He seems well practised in the art of thrashing a horse.  Hope it’s the end of his career.


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## honetpot (7 March 2021)

LEC said:



			HN wrote a good article - https://horsenetwork.com/2021/02/co...M9ByVuoEPn8jP2ZDIssxEfoDHsUtHpFCeK7JDgAkpOjKE

I have been discussing with friends this week complicit silence in horses. It happens day in and day out. I have done it myself at an event when a top pro knocked seven bells out of a horse for it just having a pole in the warm up. It makes me uncomfortable that we are all complicit. There should be better protocols in place but there is a high risk of being blackballed if you do say anything. You might not even realise it has happened. Grooms who leave top riders yards (all much admired ones on social media) because they don’t like the treatment of the horses but again say nothing because it’s impossible to report and for anyone to follow up.

This kind of behaviour in the ring at least is governed and can be sanctioned.
		
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 I have always thought that every show should have roaming stewards who monitor the horse box lines and well as the collecting ring. Most of the larger venues have conditions of the show ground entry, even small shows do, and if you can provide evidence any abuse should be life time ban. There have been instances where children have been physically abused for not doing well in a competition, never mind the horses.
  Most of the large organisations are run for the benefit of the 'sport', which brings a conflict of interest, because senior officers are paid. The abuse of young women in gymnastics has not been tackled in the way it should have been because discussing it openly would affect their income from grants and advertising, and these are often very young children.


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## tallyho! (7 March 2021)

I also posted a thread not knowing you’d started one too ester...

i should liked to have run over and dragged him off that poor brave horse, using his own whip to give him a taste of his own medicine and then asked a few stewards to help fling him into a few jumps.. (in my head anyway). 

It’s what goes on behind closed doors that worries me. Disrespect to horses, disrepute to the sport. Fine and ban.


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## tallyho! (7 March 2021)

LEC said:



			HN wrote a good article - https://horsenetwork.com/2021/02/co...M9ByVuoEPn8jP2ZDIssxEfoDHsUtHpFCeK7JDgAkpOjKE

I have been discussing with friends this week complicit silence in horses. It happens day in and day out. I have done it myself at an event when a top pro knocked seven bells out of a horse for it just having a pole in the warm up. It makes me uncomfortable that we are all complicit. There should be better protocols in place but there is a high risk of being blackballed if you do say anything. You might not even realise it has happened. Grooms who leave top riders yards (all much admired ones on social media) because they don’t like the treatment of the horses but again say nothing because it’s impossible to report and for anyone to follow up.

This kind of behaviour in the ring at least is governed and can be sanctioned.
		
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I read this and thought about it....

I’m ashamed I’ve done it too! I was very young just a teenager. At what age should kids be educated to do the right thing? Equestrian employment and education is unregulated. You can just turn up and ask for a job anywhere if you’re willing to graft. You’d never bite the hand that feeds you... this is the culture.


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## Cortez (7 March 2021)

What goes on behind closed doors? Many years ago, in a land far, far away, I got my dream job with an Olympic dressage rider. I was very young and low on the pecking order at the yard. On my very first day, which was a Monday, the day the stables was officially closed, I was given the job of wiping the blood off the walls after Mr. Olympics had finished "training" a horse in piaffe by using two whips to repeatedly beat the horse under the belly and on the sheath. That first day was also my last day. I quit and reported the stable to the relevant governing federation and subsequently.....absolutely nothing was done.


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## tallyho! (7 March 2021)

Cortez said:



			What goes on behind closed doors? Many years ago, in a land far, far away, I got my dream job with an Olympic dressage rider. I was very young and low on the pecking order at the yard. On my very first day, which was a Monday, the day the stables was officially closed, I was given the job of wiping the blood off the walls after Mr. Olympics had finished "training" a horse in piaffe by using two whips to repeatedly beat the horse under the belly and on the sheath. That first day was also my last day. I quit and reported the stable to the relevant governing federation and subsequently.....absolutely nothing was done.
		
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😔

this is probably why I can’t watch competition anymore... it hurts.
I do want to compete again but I don’t want to see the abuse.
these creatures do not deserve it.

in my journey into classical riding I see those who’ve come from a witness situation, like me but we are not many. Not compared to the “professionals”.  People who realise competition is sadly full of abuse.

Then you find that those people you meet don’t want to compete either because of the same reasons, and so who is left?


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## fankino04 (7 March 2021)

McFluff said:



			If only it was.  There are some who have such a competitive nature, they 'fight'.  And if money at stake too, the situation is even more magnified.
		
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Wasn't "competitive nature" Ollie townends excuse for THAT ride at badminton a few years ago??


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## PurBee (7 March 2021)

tallyho! said:



			😔

this is probably why I can’t watch competition anymore... it hurts.
I do want to compete again but I don’t want to see the abuse.
these creatures do not deserve it.

in my journey into classical riding I see those who’ve come from a witness situation, like me but we are not many. Not compared to the “professionals”.  People who realise competition is sadly full of abuse.

Then you find that those people you meet don’t want to compete either because of the same reasons, and so who is left?
		
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what you and Cortez have shared is just horrific to think this is more common than we realise.

Even if reported, nothing changes? Just shameful.. ☹️

I think those low pecking order grooms in the industry who witness daily abuse of horses should employ technology and wear small hidden cameras as absolute proof, share with the media, and blow the whole industry wide open...THEN let’s see  if these ‘policy authorities’ dare ignore it.


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## tallyho! (7 March 2021)

PurBee said:



			what you and Cortez have shared is just horrific to think this is more common than we realise.

Even if reported, nothing changes? Just shameful.. ☹️

I think those low pecking order grooms in the industry who witness daily abuse of horses should employ technology and wear small hidden cameras as absolute proof, share with the media, and blow the whole industry wide open...THEN let’s see  if these ‘policy authorities’ dare ignore it.
		
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The technology is right here, right now. This is the time. I wonder what is recorded out there that’s not being shown for fear of rebuttals.


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## SO1 (7 March 2021)

I expect like others grooms need an income, reporting their bosses bad behaviour would probably mean they would never work again in the equestrian industry. They may quietly walk away and more on to another yard. Often why people don't report inappropriate or illegal behaviour in their workplaces too.

If you look at the cases of the newton stud slurry pit even owners have difficulty in proving horses were neglected or not looked after as they should have been. Hopefully the owner of the horse has removed it from the care of the rider in this case.

This is all money no doubt as well as competitive drive, owners want their horse to do well and probably quick results, if they are not around much to observe the horses, they won't know how the horses are cared for or trained, some probably don't care as long they get the right results. Trainers and riders get business on their results. Professional riders and trainers may be more likely to treat the horses as commodities rather than pets. 

Realistically most horse owners will have got frustrated or cross with their horse or even someone else's horse at some point when it has not behaved in the way they want to, it is just how you control your frustration and emotions to not take it out on your horse especially in such a violent way this man did. 



PurBee said:



			what you and Cortez have shared is just horrific to think this is more common than we realise.

Even if reported, nothing changes? Just shameful.. ☹️

I think those low pecking order grooms in the industry who witness daily abuse of horses should employ technology and wear small hidden cameras as absolute proof, share with the media, and blow the whole industry wide open...THEN let’s see  if these ‘policy authorities’ dare ignore it.
		
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## PurBee (8 March 2021)

SO1 said:



			I expect like others grooms need an income, reporting their bosses bad behaviour would probably mean they would never work again in the equestrian industry. They may quietly walk away and more on to another yard. Often why people don't report inappropriate or illegal behaviour in their workplaces too.

If you look at the cases of the newton stud slurry pit even owners have difficulty in proving horses were neglected or not looked after as they should have been. Hopefully the owner of the horse has removed it from the care of the rider in this case.

This is all money no doubt as well as competitive drive, owners want their horse to do well and probably quick results, if they are not around much to observe the horses, they won't know how the horses are cared for or trained, some probably don't care as long they get the right results. Trainers and riders get business on their results. Professional riders and trainers may be more likely to treat the horses as commodities rather than pets.

Realistically most horse owners will have got frustrated or cross with their horse or even someone else's horse at some point when it has not behaved in the way they want to, it is just how you control your frustration and emotions to not take it out on your horse especially in such a violent way this man did.
		
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Yes, of course its valid many grooms witness it but fear horrible consequences for their own careers should they report it.

What it takes then are under cover stable-hands that aren’t really with a career in the industry, but easily get a job at a yard as its all mucking out, labour-only type work. They dont care about retribution as they have no interest in the industry really to forge a career in it.
That’s how the expose’s are done on animal abuse establishments, Peta-minded menial workers with the sole aim of capturing footage of abuse. I recall USA big lick industry cases brought about via stable-hand footage of soring, drugging and beating horses.

The other way to prevent profit-hunger animal abuse it is to drain the money out of the sports. Let it be for entertainment only, no prize money. you get 100 quid ‘ticket money’ for the day, for showing up and entertaining the crowd, just like the fee a band playing in a pub gets of an evening. 

Too drastic a change for todays industry i know, and there’s many genuine horse lovers in it too who lose out, but sometimes the rug has to be pulled out to prevent the continuous 2% violent abuse cases.

Zoo’s were once extremely popular until the poor management of a few and expose’s of abuse lead to the collapse of the whole industry.

It’s the bad apples which rot the entire cart, so those genuine folk in the industry, if they wish for it to remain should be keen to call-out terrible abuse, despite fear of loss. 
They’ll receive support from fellow peers for their courage and eventually, those ‘whistle blowers’ will achieve a glowing reputation, if they fearless face the establishment to put an end to horse industry abuse. 
Just like the hho ‘unmentionable place’ recent case, its bruised ego’s and forever tarnished reputations, the bravery of the few brings us all to a better plateau to enjoy animals once the rotten apples are thrown-out.


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## conniegirl (8 March 2021)

PurBee said:



			Zoo’s were once extremely popular until the poor management of a few and expose’s of abuse lead to the collapse of the whole industry.
		
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Not sure where you are from but there are plenty of zoo’s in the UK that do extremely well and are incredibly well supported. Hardly an industry that has collapsed


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## Tiddlypom (8 March 2021)

PurBee said:



			Zoo’s were once extremely popular until the poor management of a few and expose’s of abuse lead to the collapse of the whole industry.
		
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Not true at all.

I’m a member of Chester Zoo, which is very well run and does sterling work, like many other UK zoos. Covid is causing it financial hardship, of course, like other attractions, but before that it was on a very strong financial footing.


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## tallyho! (8 March 2021)

Zoo's still need to pull their socks up though according to the Born Free foundation.

FWIW. I don't like zoo's. Wildlife parks, yes but not zoo's.


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## PurBee (8 March 2021)

conniegirl said:



			Not sure where you are from but there are plenty of zoo’s in the UK that do extremely well and are incredibly well supported. Hardly an industry that has collapsed
		
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im talking global zoo industry, not just uk. Sure, there are zoo’s still in operation - those that offer something more than a few metres of concrete holding pens for the animals. But many more have been closed down, than the numbers surviving. 

I recall a zoo visit in germany on the insistence of a friend....my god, what a bleak place! The lions had a tubular cage walkway above the zoo as their ’exercise’. The pens were all tiny, the animals shrieking or swaying continuously with psyche shutdown. We were the only visitors. The popularity of zoo’s has dropped right off the radar compared to when i was a kid in the 80’s due to public awareness just not finding incarceration of massive wonderful wild animals appealing or ethical anymore.

Zoo’s took a hit when circuses were in the spotlight. The circus industry has melted into oblivion due to a few bad apples being exposed. 
It’s unfortunate as those genuine in the industry lose out too when it all collapses and that’s a great shame. I know of a lion tamer in the US who kept his animals in a massive purpose built dessert wilderness in the U.S and literally all money and time went into their care - they were only caged when on the road - but his career with the top zoo circuits collapsed once animal welfare organisations got their hooks into the industry and exposed the abuse. The good go down with the bad. He tried to redirect his career with an plan to build a tiger/lion wildlife park and have educational group visits, but the cost of the whole proposal was too massive to take on, and financial sponsorship was tried but failed.

Im not saying whole industries should be wiped out due to the small % of abuse. It’s really sad if that happens as i think man’s ability to actually live beside all types of animals and have a rapport with them is something to be celebrated. 

If the bad apples could be highlighted and thrown out, and it be known abuse is never tolerated, it should leave animal ‘pleasure/entertainment’ industries as displays of wonder/awe/compassion that they were originally hoped to be all about.


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## Tiddlypom (8 March 2021)

PurBee said:



			im talking global zoo industry, not just uk
		
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Well, that’s not what you wrote when you said that the ‘whole (zoo) industry’ had collapsed, and seeing as this is a UK based forum...


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## conniegirl (8 March 2021)

PurBee said:



			im talking global zoo industry, not just uk. Sure, there are zoo’s still in operation - those that offer something more than a few metres of concrete holding pens for the animals. But many more have been closed down, than the numbers surviving.

I recall a zoo visit in germany on the insistence of a friend....my god, what a bleak place! The lions had a tubular cage walkway above the zoo as their ’exercise’. The pens were all tiny, the animals shrieking or swaying continuously with psyche shutdown. We were the only visitors. The popularity of zoo’s has dropped right off the radar compared to when i was a kid in the 80’s due to public awareness just not finding incarceration of massive wonderful wild animals appealing or ethical anymore.
		
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Erm there are still plenty of Zoo's in the UK and Europe, and the popularity of places like Chester Zoo has certainly not dropped off at all. When they reopened after covid you had to book a slot and thier website crashed from the amount of people trying to get slots! enormous amounts of people still flock to zoo's. 
2.1 Million people visited chester zoo in 2019, the most in the entire history of the Zoo.


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## PurBee (8 March 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			Well, that’s not what you wrote when you said that the ‘whole (zoo) industry’ had collapsed, and seeing as this is a UK based forum...
		
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I also mentioned U.S horse big lick industry regarding animal abuse cases - so when i state ‘whole zoo industry’ im not specifying a country.
The zoo industry globally before animal abuse awareness grew, was absolutely thriving. So my reference to a collapsed industry is the comparison of now to the thriving industry globally before. 
Just because Chester Zoo has survived, doesn’t mean the industry as a whole has not altered dramatically, due to animal abuse claims and tighter policies.

There are many non-uk members on this forum, it’s allowed to discuss other countries affairs.


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## ester (8 March 2021)

Altered dramatically is a bit different to ‘collapsed’


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## PurBee (8 March 2021)

ester said:



			Altered dramatically is a bit different to ‘collapsed’
		
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im disinterested in focusing on plunging the rabbit-hole of lexical semantics and would rather hope the point of the post highlighting that animal abuse being reported had lead to a shake-up in various industries, and ultimately saved animal suffering and lives.
This thread title shows there’s still a way to go, but it’s an issue all animal lovers will never give up on.


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## Rowreach (8 March 2021)

It saddens me that people are far more bothered by an already dead/not abused horse than they are by this public display of violence against a living one.

It’s not just racing that needs to get its house in order.


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## tallyho! (8 March 2021)

...


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## tallyho! (8 March 2021)

conniegirl said:



			Erm there are still plenty of Zoo's in the UK and Europe, and the popularity of places like Chester Zoo has certainly not dropped off at all. When they reopened after covid you had to book a slot and thier website crashed from the amount of people trying to get slots! enormous amounts of people still flock to zoo's.
2.1 Million people visited chester zoo in 2019, the most in the entire history of the Zoo.
		
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This isn’t about zoo’s... 

This is about horse abuse by intelligible adults.


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## ester (8 March 2021)

Quite like accuracy of the written word myself  makes it a whole lot clearer for everyone what people mean then! Never can understand why it is apparently difficult to write what you actually mean.


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## Surbie (8 March 2021)

That footage is horrific. The rider's statement trying to pass off a yellow card and a warning as fair penalties is also appalling. I hope he's lost the ride. Poor bloody horse.


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## Gingerwitch (9 March 2021)

PurBee said:



			what you and Cortez have shared is just horrific to think this is more common than we realise.

Even if reported, nothing changes? Just shameful.. ☹️

I think those low pecking order grooms in the industry who witness daily abuse of horses should employ technology and wear small hidden cameras as absolute proof, share with the media, and blow the whole industry wide open...THEN let’s see  if these ‘policy authorities’ dare ignore it.
		
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And what is groom supposed to do for a job. They would be un employable once they did that. It needs undercover reporters, but can't imagine any of the publications doing that, they need the advertising income


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## millikins (9 March 2021)

PurBee said:



			Yes, of course its valid many grooms witness it but fear horrible consequences for their own careers should they report it.

What it takes then are under cover stable-hands that aren’t really with a career in the industry, but easily get a job at a yard as its all mucking out, labour-only type work. They dont care about retribution as they have no interest in the industry really to forge a career in it.
That’s how the expose’s are done on animal abuse establishments, Peta-minded menial workers with the sole aim of capturing footage of abuse. I recall USA big lick industry cases brought about via stable-hand footage of soring, drugging and beating horses.

The other way to prevent profit-hunger animal abuse it is to drain the money out of the sports. Let it be for entertainment only, no prize money. you get 100 quid ‘ticket money’ for the day, for showing up and entertaining the crowd, just like the fee a band playing in a pub gets of an evening.

Too drastic a change for todays industry i know, and there’s many genuine horse lovers in it too who lose out, but sometimes the rug has to be pulled out to prevent the continuous 2% violent abuse cases.

Zoo’s were once extremely popular until the poor management of a few and expose’s of abuse lead to the collapse of the whole industry.

It’s the bad apples which rot the entire cart, so those genuine folk in the industry, if they wish for it to remain should be keen to call-out terrible abuse, despite fear of loss.
They’ll receive support from fellow peers for their courage and eventually, those ‘whistle blowers’ will achieve a glowing reputation, if they fearless face the establishment to put an end to horse industry abuse.
Just like the hho ‘unmentionable place’ recent case, its bruised ego’s and forever tarnished reputations, the bravery of the few brings us all to a better plateau to enjoy animals once the rotten apples are thrown-out.
		
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 Sorry but I think this is far too complicated to ever be realistic. A groom has to see abuse, report it to an organisation who may or may not act, who then infiltrate said establishment with an undercover groom who hopefully will be on site with camera ready to roll (all unseen by abuser) when next incident occurs. Really can't see this as a credible scenario. 
I think what will have an effect is if the owner of that horse very publicly removes it and states why they have done so. If not perhaps they should also be fined as complicit in animal abuse.


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## DabDab (9 March 2021)

Rowreach said:



			It saddens me that people are far more bothered by an already dead/not abused horse than they are by this public display of violence against a living one.

It’s not just racing that needs to get its house in order.
		
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On what do you base that conclusion?

In cases like this I'm glad there isn't much discussion...there shouldn't be much discussion, because there shouldn't be anyone defending that kind of disgusting behaviour so the whole conversation is going to be pretty one sided.

As it goes I happen to think that elite Showjumping and dressage is a hot mess, with a certain level of rough riding and training that has become normalised, in the same way that the death of young horses has been normalised in racing. And against that backdrop you are far more likely to get the people who take it just a few steps further. It's hard to know what can be done about it though because it is hard to know where the line is - if you train with pressure and release, what is too much pressure? I'll admit that I often struggle with how much pressure to apply in certain situations, and I think most riders do. It's probably why I am not a particularly good competition rider - I struggle to push a horse onto the next level because I feel like I'm asking too much, and end up feeling guilty and just bimbling around hacking for weeks to recover (and I don't even ride with whip or spurs etc.)

It's tricky, sport with animals. There will probably always be a percentage of the people at the top who are there partly because they were willing to push their animals harder than everyone else. I don't know what the answer is to be honest


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## Rowreach (9 March 2021)

DabDab said:



			On what do you base that conclusion?

In cases like this I'm glad there isn't much discussion...there shouldn't be much discussion, because there shouldn't be anyone defending that kind of disgusting behaviour so the whole conversation is going to be pretty one sided.

As it goes I happen to think that elite Showjumping and dressage is a hot mess, with a certain level of rough riding and training that has become normalised, in the same way that the death of young horses has been normalised in racing. And against that backdrop you are far more likely to get the people who take it just a few steps further. It's hard to know what can be done about it though because it is hard to know where the line is - if you train with pressure and release, what is too much pressure? I'll admit that I often struggle with how much pressure to apply in certain situations, and I think most riders do. It's probably why I am not a particularly good competition rider - I struggle to push a horse onto the next level because I feel like I'm asking too much, and end up feeling guilty and just bimbling around hacking for weeks to recover (and I don't even ride with whip or spurs etc.)

It's tricky, sport with animals. There will probably always be a percentage of the people at the top who are there partly because they were willing to push their animals harder than everyone else. I don't know what the answer is to be honest
		
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Several hundred emotive comments on the GE thread and oh, forty something on this one. Which shows real, blatant abuse of a living animal. Obvious, I would have thought.


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## DabDab (9 March 2021)

Rowreach said:



			Several hundred emotive comments on the GE thread and oh, forty something on this one. Which shows real, blatant abuse of a living animal. Obvious, I would have thought.
		
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Because people talk more about stuff where there is a difference of opinion. I cba with the papers this morning because they are all full with Meghan and Harry nonsense. Does that mean that no wars are happening today? Or that there aren't many things occurring that people genuinely find more terrible and shocking than anything Meghan and Harry had to say? Of course not, it is perfectly normal to be horrified by one thing and yet have much more to say about something comparatively innocuous.


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## tristar (9 March 2021)

two important lessons i have learned, you cant make 3/4 ton of horse do anything it does`nt want  to

doing it the long and nice way brings the glory of experience and self esteem to yourself, and gives you a horse who will do for you what he may not do for any other person


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## tristar (9 March 2021)

DabDab said:



			On what do you base that conclusion?

In cases like this I'm glad there isn't much discussion...there shouldn't be much discussion, because there shouldn't be anyone defending that kind of disgusting behaviour so the whole conversation is going to be pretty one sided.

As it goes I happen to think that elite Showjumping and dressage is a hot mess, with a certain level of rough riding and training that has become normalised, in the same way that the death of young horses has been normalised in racing. And against that backdrop you are far more likely to get the people who take it just a few steps further. It's hard to know what can be done about it though because it is hard to know where the line is - if you train with pressure and release, what is too much pressure? I'll admit that I often struggle with how much pressure to apply in certain situations, and I think most riders do. It's probably why I am not a particularly good competition rider - I struggle to push a horse onto the next level because I feel like I'm asking too much, and end up feeling guilty and just bimbling around hacking for weeks to recover (and I don't even ride with whip or spurs etc.)

It's tricky, sport with animals. There will probably always be a percentage of the people at the top who are there partly because they were willing to push their animals harder than everyone else. I don't know what the answer is to be honest
		
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you have said the answer, discovered the truth being aware of what you don`t want, the horses tell you when you get it right


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## tristar (9 March 2021)

you cant make 3/4 ton of horse want  do something it doesn`t want to

doing it the nice way gives the rider self esteem and experience and  a horse who will do things for you he may not  do for anyone else, and he may do things no one thought he could do

no other feeling like going back to the stable with a happy horse, and being on high for the rest of the day


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## Birker2020 (9 March 2021)

It's obvious from watching the video that they don't have a good partnership. It's a shame he let anger cloud his judgement and to force the horse to jump the fence at the speed it was going was a recipe that was only going to end in disaster.


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## Birker2020 (9 March 2021)

suestowford said:



			This is worse than the Gordon Elliott picture. At least the Irish horse could no longer feel anything.
I'd like to think this SJ rider would be hanging his head in shame but I doubt he will be.
		
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Agree but both cases show total disregard to the horse and a massive load of disrespect.

We've all lost it from time to time but not to that extent thank goodness.


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## Apizz2019 (9 March 2021)

Birker2020 said:



			Agree but both cases show total disregard to the horse and a massive load of disrespect.

We've all lost it from time to time but not to that extent thank goodness.
		
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Agreed! 

This reminds me of Bernhard Maier - another 'professional rider' who didn't know when to bow out gracefully.

Dead or alive, these three individuals are prime examples of arrogance and bringing their sport into disrepute.


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## DabDab (9 March 2021)

tristar said:



			you have said the answer, discovered the truth being aware of what you don`t want, the horses tell you when you get it right
		
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The answer in the wider sport context is what I meant.

Horses don't tell you anything, it's just your (a human's) interpretation of a horse's response, and there are very different interpretations out there.


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## tallyho! (9 March 2021)

Gingerwitch said:



			And what is groom supposed to do for a job. They would be un employable once they did that. It needs undercover reporters, but can't imagine any of the publications doing that, they need the advertising income
		
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Sad but true - this is the blind eye that needs to change. What if the shoe was on the other foot? What if any employee was treated as a risk for exposé? Surely then the standards would improve? If enough people (easy for me to say now, right?) were to tip the regulators, then this fear would be transferred to the perpetrators, not the innocent bystanders.


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## Pippity (9 March 2021)

If nothing happens when top-level riders are reported, what hope do we have of changing the behaviour of low-level riders? There's a girl around my way who I've seen 'schooling' her horses - rams them at 1.2m fences with a single pole and no placing line, beats them and yanks the reins when they refuse. The horses are strapped up so tightly that they have bald patches and callouses on their heads. On the ground, I've seen her kick one in the belly when it reared. I know several people have reported her to behaviour to her yard owner, but nothing's been done.


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## PapaverFollis (9 March 2021)

The thing about the dead racehorse is that the horse is dead and the guy who is presumably in some part responsible (even if there wasn't any actual wrong doing) apparently finds it funny.  There is no "heat of the moment" element to his actions. This horse has been badly done to but does live to fight another day.

I'm not sure you can classify one situation as categorically worse than the other in a long view, although fact remains that the racehorse was unaffected in the moment of the photographed action on account of already being dead.


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## Birker2020 (9 March 2021)

PapaverFollis said:



			The thing about the dead racehorse is that the horse is dead and the guy who is presumably in some part responsible (even if there wasn't any actual wrong doing) apparently finds it funny.  There is no "heat of the moment" element to his actions. This horse has been badly done to but does live to fight another day.

I'm not sure you can classify one situation as categorically worse than the other in a long view, although fact remains that the racehorse was unaffected in the moment of the photographed action on account of already being dead.
		
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Well maybe I am rather sensitive but i find it incredibly disrespectful.


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## PapaverFollis (9 March 2021)

Birker2020 said:



			Well maybe I am rather sensitive but i find it incredibly disrespectful.
		
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I didn't say it wasn't so?


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## Birker2020 (9 March 2021)

PapaverFollis said:



			I didn't say it wasn't so?
		
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No I know you didn't, I am just reiterating how I feel


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## PapaverFollis (9 March 2021)

Birker2020 said:



			No I know you didn't, I am just reiterating how I feel 

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Sorry, misread you... thinking you'd misread me. Aren't forums fun? 😂


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## millikins (9 March 2021)

tristar said:



			two important lessons i have learned, you cant make 3/4 ton of horse do anything it does`nt want  to

doing it the long and nice way brings the glory of experience and self esteem to yourself, and gives you a horse who will do for you what he may not do for any other person
		
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I don't know if you can force a horse to jump but the TWH Big Lick shows that you can most certainly make 3/4 ton of horse do things it doesn't want to.


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## tristar (9 March 2021)

millikins said:



			I don't know if you can force a horse to jump but the TWH Big Lick shows that you can most certainly make 3/4 ton of horse do things it doesn't want to.
		
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but i want the horse to want to do it


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## tristar (9 March 2021)

DabDab said:



			The answer in the wider sport context is what I meant.

Horses don't tell you anything, it's just your (a human's) interpretation of a horse's response, and there are very different interpretations out there.
		
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horses tell  me something every day, i don`t think all  good competition riders have to push the horse, but they have great talent and true tact to ask, show, then follow


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## Gingerwitch (10 March 2021)

Rowreach said:



			Several hundred emotive comments on the GE thread and oh, forty something on this one. Which shows real, blatant abuse of a living animal. Obvious, I would have thought.
		
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We have had two other hotley debated threads where many posters have been accused of trial by social media and to back off. They have done.


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## Gingerwitch (10 March 2021)

Rumtytum said:



			He seems well practised in the art of thrashing a horse.  Hope it’s the end of his career.
		
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See if many posters had posted this they would have been jumped on and called out for bullying.


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## Amun (10 March 2021)

Horrible 😟 I can't possibly imagine what is happening behind the closed door. And not just for this poor horse


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## Rumtytum (10 March 2021)

Gingerwitch said:



			See if many posters had posted this they would have been jumped on and called out for bullying.
		
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Why? I’m not being flippant, I honestly don’t understand!


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## Smitty (10 March 2021)

Rowreach said:



			It saddens me that people are far more bothered by an already dead/not abused horse than they are by this public display of violence against a living one.

It’s not just racing that needs to get its house in order.
		
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I wonder if it is because abuse of living horses within equestrian sport is sadly a relatively common occurrence,  whereas I cannot recall a weirdo having posed on a dead horse for a photo at any time.

There are posts on this thread I cannot bring myself to 'like', ie Cortez's, but so sadly we know things go on behind closed doors and I have myself witnessed things in the ring and on course at BE that I think go way beyond a reprimand, albeit some going back 30 years.

Hopefully all his owners will withdraw their horses and perhaps if yards have nothing to hide, they should be prepared to employ grooms who have "spilled the beans".


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## Gingerwitch (10 March 2021)

Rumtytum said:



			Why? I’m not being flippant, I honestly don’t understand!
		
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Rusty I am not getting at you, it's just your post under different posters names would have been heckled and accused of bullying him and trial by social media.  I was using this post as that example, as to why after 2pretty savage threads of people being called out, for statements such as theses etc why many have chosen not to post on yet another thread where their points would be pulled apart.
We have posters on her who constantly vilify others on some posts, but do exactly the same on other posts but because its them doing it they never get called out.
They seem to forget is they are as much the social m3dua bully as the ones they are calling out, if not more so. As bizzare as it may seem 
 The posters on this forum get much more adversely affected by other posters, as to some this is there life at the moment. I have seen some horrid pack mentality on here recently and also constant sniping at some posters and they never get left alone. People pulling up all sorts of crap that they said a hundred posts ago on a totally unconnected post. I get into arguments with people and move on. I have only had one big spat with a poster but that was because they broke an rule and divulged contents of a pm. But I still post on there posts and dont take a swipe at them at every occasion.
The same cannot be said for others, and these are usually the most prolific users of the word bully.


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## tristar (11 March 2021)

Rowreach said:



			It saddens me that people are far more bothered by an already dead/not abused horse than they are by this public display of violence against a living one.

It’s not just racing that needs to get its house in order.
		
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racing is in trouble with the death and damage done to horses on the racecourse in front all who watch, already its a bit on a knife edge


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## littleshetland (13 March 2021)

Just watched the video....what a horrible bastard he is.


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## ester (27 May 2021)

Update today 
suspended for four months and fined $4,000 (£2,824).
https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/kevin-lemke-banned-746833


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## millikins (27 May 2021)

ester said:



			Update today
suspended for four months and fined $4,000 (£2,824).
https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/kevin-lemke-banned-746833

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Depressingly weak penalty.


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## Quigleyandme (28 May 2021)

I can only hope the damage to his reputation is rather more punitive than this official penalty.


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## Smitty (28 May 2021)

Well, at least he's apologised to the horse🙄.   Let's hope the horse understood and knows he will never ever do it again...


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## IrishMilo (28 May 2021)

“The horse show dealt with it by giving me a yellow card and a warning, and I obviously accepted it, and it won’t be happening again w̶h̶e̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶c̶a̶m̶e̶r̶a̶s̶ ̶a̶r̶e̶ ̶r̶o̶l̶l̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶,” he said.


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## Rumtytum (28 May 2021)

IrishMilo said:



			“The horse show dealt with it by giving me a yellow card and a warning, and I obviously accepted it, and it won’t be happening again w̶h̶e̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶c̶a̶m̶e̶r̶a̶s̶ ̶a̶r̶e̶ ̶r̶o̶l̶l̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶,” he said.
		
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Can’t help thinking that’s true 🙁


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## Quigleyandme (28 May 2021)

Me neither. If he completely lost the run of himself in public, to the extent he presented the horse at a combination after he had been eliminated, what will he do behind closed doors when the horse doesn’t perform to his satisfaction?


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## MagicMelon (14 June 2021)

Wish he could be whipped like that, and banned for life from having any animal. If you treat an animal like that, you deserve none. Couldnt care if his career is over, that means nothing ultimately.


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