# Puppy and young bitch constantly play fighting - reaching the end of my tether!!



## Toast (22 February 2013)

Having had a rough year, OH and i have had to move back in with my parents for a little while. We have a 6 month old Rottie pup and they have an approximately 2yo Collie bitch. Its not ideal as the house is small but they get on well, if anything too well.
From the moment they get up to the minute they go to bed they're play fighting. I wouldn't mind but my rott hasn't an ounce of grace about her and with the both of them careering about the house she crashes into furniture, things get broken.. culminating in the collie having to be shut in another room to stop them. Which i don't like doing as its unfair on her to keep getting kicked out all the time. My rott has a crate but the house is so small it only fits in one part of the living room and if it isn't bed time and there's people in the living room, if she's asked to go in her crate she wails like a banshee. And i cant leave her to her own devices in the hallway as it would be totally irresponsible to leave a puppy unsupervised.
its a difficult situation as my dad is older, and i think was hoping for a quieter life once all the kids had left home. Although he doesn't mind having the dogs in the house, the constant rough housing is becoming a nightmare. I thought they'd settle down after a few days but we've been here 2 weeks now and they're relentless.
Am i being to hasty? should i give them more time to settle? My pup has always been the over sociable type, constantly pestering other dogs to play.

I should mention that neither are hyperactive so to speak, they're both on a good diet and get plenty of exercise.


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## Always Henesy (22 February 2013)

Oh I feel your pain 
I have a 14 week old JRT, a 3 yo Labradoodle & a 4yo Springer.
The puppy spends most of his life hanging from the spaniels ears or bundling my 38kg Labradoodle all over the floor.

At this age they just love to play fight and it is good for them. I do put my JRT down for a nap in his crate now and then though to give my older dogs a break.

It is very wearing after a while....but they do grow out of the constant playing. Stig (my labradoodle) still occasionally liked to play before we got Badger (the JRT)...but both of the older dogs just like their walks and their snoozes.

I can't really offer any advice other than to say the puppy will eventually drop the need for constant play. 
Have you thought of a kong stuffed with treats?


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## gelderlander (22 February 2013)

You may not have time to do it, but two extra walks  and a little less food works wonders...


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## Superhot (22 February 2013)

Do you have a canine creche anywhere near you?  You could then let your pup go there a few days a week, which should get rid of your pups excess energy, and curb the novelty of having another doggie friend!  Alternatively, is there a dog sitter who could take your girl a few days a week to break the cycle?  Try squirting water at her to break them up when they get too heated together!!


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## NeverSayNever (22 February 2013)

pm Cayla for her crate training guide. You say the dog squeals like a banshee but if properly introduced and trained to see the crate as something positive it can be invaluable. In your situation a crate is a must for time out.


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## Alec Swan (22 February 2013)

Stand between them,  use your eye,  your voice and your pointing finger.  Sort them out,  it's do-able.  Should anyone decide to defy or disobey you,  you grab them under their jowl,  you pull them up off the ground and you explain that you're pissed off with them.  Mean it! 

I've a Cocker puppy that wants to act the fool with the world.  She now sees things in a different light.

Alec.


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## Toast (22 February 2013)

NeverSayNever said:



			pm Cayla for her crate training guide. You say the dog squeals like a banshee but if properly introduced and trained to see the crate as something positive it can be invaluable. In your situation a crate is a must for time out.
		
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She is fully crate trained. She sleeps there at night, has access to it all day and goes in if we need to nip out for half an hour. It is a positive place for her, i cant really help it if she can see everyone else and other dog in the room and feels shes missing out on something. Not even a stuffed kong will keep her quiet if there's other things going on. The crate is simply too big to put anywhere else in our 2 up 2 down detached sadly.


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## Toast (22 February 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			Stand between them,  use your eye,  your voice and your pointing finger.  Sort them out,  it's do-able.  Should anyone decide to defy or disobey you,  you grab them under their jowl,  you pull them up off the ground and you explain that you're pissed off with them.  Mean it! 

I've a Cocker puppy that wants to act the fool with the world.  She now sees things in a different light.

Alec.
		
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I have to do this at least ten times a day Alec, It'll work to some extent but is soon forgotten and pup will be back to harassing the collie. Which is when the poor lass ends up getting kicked out of the lounge!


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## Superhot (22 February 2013)

What's the point or pleasure in having a dog that only 'behaves' through fear?  There are other more positive ways to train dogs...


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## NeverSayNever (22 February 2013)

Toast said:



			She is fully crate trained. She sleeps there at night, has access to it all day and goes in if we need to nip out for half an hour. It is a positive place for her, i cant really help it if she can see everyone else and other dog in the room and feels shes missing out on something. Not even a stuffed kong will keep her quiet if there's other things going on. The crate is simply too big to put anywhere else in our 2 up 2 down detached sadly.
		
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ok, Id gently suggest to you that she isnt 'fully ' crate trained if you can't put her in it unless there are no distractions. She needs to learn that when you say enough, you mean enough. I still suggest to ask Cayla about this   My young dog can be very ott and a complete pain the ass with the others - when 6 dogs are let out together to go for a pee and the youngster of the pack is intent on bouncing on every one else's head, that's not acceptable. I've used a plastic bottle with stones in to shake to combine with my 'enough' command. It works, because the pup detests it, and now I dont have to use it at all, just the command and she wanders off to do her own thing. However the problem with it is if the other dog is sensitive to it, you are affecting them both. Have you tried a water pistol? How is your down-stay command? In our house, when we say, enough - lie down. Everyone knows the time for mucking about is over and finds a quiet place to lie.


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## littlemisslauren (22 February 2013)

My mum got a ridgie puppy a couple of months after I got my bitch. They have never lived in the same house but if I go to see my mum the dog comes too. 

For a good 6 months - a year they were insane together. No nasty behaviour at all just babies playing rough with each other. 

We simply refused to allow the unwanted 'play' behaviour in the house. House is for calm, garden is for hanging off each others faces / legs / tails. Have you got a secure garden you can bung them in to have their crazy time and then enforce a nap time when they are inside?

We stick to the same rules in our own house, inside time is calm time - outside time is ball time. 

Now they are both about to turn 3 and have a big play when they first see each other and spent indoors time lying in a big heap infront of the fire.


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## vieshot (22 February 2013)

Why can't you just tell them to pack it in? Six months is old enough to understand that no means no.


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## Dobiegirl (22 February 2013)

The garden is for playing and the house is not simples I cant have 2 Dobes tearing about the house like mad things, if they start I just say quiet or let them out in the garden.

I often have a little dog come to stay and she is best buds with our Lancashire Heeler but they play all the time so after a suitable spell in the garden(yes they do get good walks) I keep them in separate rooms until they have settled.

You wouldnt allow unruly children to run amok in your house so why allow dogs.


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## MurphysMinder (22 February 2013)

Evie and her daughter (who is nearly 12 months old), have mad games frequently. Generally they are charging round the garden but I don't mind in the house as long as they aren't too noisy, when I've had enough they are told and they will stop.  When Freya was younger I did have to put her in her crate, which is in the room with us, and that was her signal to settle down.
As neversaynever suggests it would be worth getting Cayla's puppy and crate training guide.  I gave one with every puppy and all the new owners found it helpful.


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## Alec Swan (22 February 2013)

Toast said:



			I have to do this at least ten times a day Alec, It'll work to some extent but is soon forgotten .......(
		
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In that case,  if you continue to repeat yourself,  and it has no effect,  then you ramp-up the treatment.  It has nothing to do with violence or pain,  but everything to do with gaining a dog's respect.  Respect is made up,  in part,  of fear.  Fear of your raised voice,  fear of offending you,  and it can be achieved by being "In Charge".  

Dishing out a bol-locking to a dog,  and then telling it that you're sorry,  by your body language where you "acquiesce"  and forgive,  is no bol-locking at all.  Once squared up,  allow the dog a while to consider it crimes.  Do the Naughty Corner if you must,  it doesn't matter what it is,  but when it comes to training dogs,  NEVER,  but NEVER square the dog up and then offer forgiveness.  The dog will only ever understand you if you behave like another dog.  You WILL NOT tolerate bad behaviour,  not for a second. Forgiveness sends out the most awful mixed messages to a dog.

Others will tell you to use toys or to distract the puppy's attention.  Nonsense.  Obedience is achieved when your dog respects you.  Your dog will respect you when you earn that respect.  Be Top Dog.

When you have a balanced and respectful response from your dog,  and over time,  then you can gently,  relax the pressure.  It's either all the above,  or it's all down to "Play time".  You decide which!! 

Alec.


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## Superhot (22 February 2013)

How the heck does a dog know it has offended you?  It has no concept of offence...I despair reading that you think it is OK to earn a dogs respect by fear.  I'm not hijacking this genuine call for help and will not enter into a debate on harsh training methods.  Only this week I have read an article that states the general feeling amongst professional behaviourists is that some people use force and punishment because they need to be in charge and fear losing control.  A quick fix is required no matter how it is achieved...
Toast.  Have you been taking your Rottie to puppy training classes?  Have you tried the water pistol?  How about muzzling her to stop the fighting?  You sound at the end of your tether, I guess that after such a bad year and having to move back in with your dad, you really don't want to cause him any trouble.  Are you starting to think the best solution would be to rehome her?  I would definitely try puppy training classes and hope you have the time to continue the training at home, obviously away from the Collie.  You need to get her focussing on you, and not thinking life is one long game.  Training her will also tire her mentally as well as physically.


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## CAYLA (22 February 2013)

What LML said (I dont allow fooling around in the house) I can't be doing with my house being an extention of a play field.
And I agree with Alecs last comment to be honest, I get respect by being firm but fair, when I command and physically part 2 dogs and place them where i chose, they know not to attempt to repeat the exercise, you need to put some conviction into your commands and handling (this does not mean beat the dogs) or hurt their feeling or needing to shove toys in their face, but you could offer up a large raw bone to the rottie in her crate (once she has obeyed her time out/remaining in her position) as a positive......(I would not) but over all your initial control (whatever that maybe) should carry through to any unwanted behaviour at any given time, this way you get the response of "oops, thats isn't acceptible, I know what happens now I best take my self or or lie down pronto"
Part dogs and place them physically back in their place, block their attempts to hoon around, they will sharp get the gist that, any attempt at fooling means you are up on your feet and nipping it in the bud before contact ensues


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## Alec Swan (22 February 2013)

Superhot said:



			How the heck does a dog know it has offended you?  It has no concept of offence...........
		
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Watch a puppy and an adult dog,  and tell me how the puppy learns to respect its older companion.  When you understand that,  then you'll understand the concept of canine respect.

Alec.


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## CorvusCorax (22 February 2013)

Get a covered crate or cover the crate. Teach the 'quiet' command. And mean it and be consistent.

It sounds old school and it's not for everyone but my young dog can be a right arse and when he stayed with my friend and her pack, she used a rolled-up newspaper 
He only has to see one now and reverts to being a lamb. He is not scared or frightened of me, I wish he bloody was!!


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## Toast (23 February 2013)

Thanks everyone, i tried kicking them out in the garden this morning and after 5 minutes watching bits of my lawn flying all over the place and plants being ripped out i had to shout them in (i wouldnt mind but the house is rented!) Since then i've repeatedly separated them when they started and backed it up with a firm 'no!' (it's taken a good 45 mins to get the message across) but they're now lying quietly at opposite ends of the room. Result!

Any tips on enforcing a quiet command? Unfortunately Ella is a really vocal dog as it is, coupled with the fact she's really persistent. So when i tell her to 'shhh!' it works momentarily but i could be repeating myself for hours.


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## CorvusCorax (23 February 2013)

You need to teach her the speak command first and then differentiate between that and 'quiet' - reward differently for each and make sure the command, cue and reward is distinct because if you don't know the difference and don't make it clear, then she definitely won't.

If you have to repeat yourself for hours, the command is not solid and she either does not understand/or there is no consequence for ignoring you, so I would go back to the drawing board on that one.


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## Alec Swan (23 February 2013)

CaveCanem said:



			.......

If you have to repeat yourself for hours, the command is not solid and she either does not understand/or there is no consequence for ignoring you, so I would go back to the drawing board on that one.
		
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A valid point.  Dogs need a reason to listen to us,  and there are those dogs,  and I'm sorry,  but Rotts can be amongst them,  which tend to be a bit on the selfish side.  As in the above quote,  there has to be a consequence for a dog ignoring you.  If the consequence is of no importance to the dog,  then why should it listen?  What was the advice once offered?  "Speak softly,  and carry a big stick".  I take the stick to be figurative! 

Alec.


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## noodle_ (23 February 2013)

mine play whenever they get the chance - pretty much like yours tbh

they are 6 and 11 months... i dont mind the playing they are just very very vocal

i noramlly end up separating them but tbh when i say "enough" they usually do packl in for 30 seconds!!

i do feel your pain!!


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## Toast (23 February 2013)

noodle_ said:



			mine play whenever they get the chance - pretty much like yours tbh

they are 6 and 11 months... i dont mind the playing they are just very very vocal

i noramlly end up separating them but tbh when i say "enough" they usually do packl in for 30 seconds!!

i do feel your pain!!
		
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The noise is so irritating isn't it! My pup is the instigator but its the collie that makes all the noise.. drives me crackers!
Im actually having a relatively quiet day though. I realised i think i was being too soft with my Rott, she's an ignorant madam. We had a couple of incidences this morning where i was leaping up to separate them every 5 minutes but eventually i was so bored of their constant noise and things getting knocked off tables/cabinets ect that i had a 'mum really means it this time' moment and i've only had to reinforce it twice since.


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## Crugeran Celt (23 February 2013)

Our two springers were like this but they soon learned that play was something they were only allowed to do outside. Are you able to put them in the garden to play together? When ours are out they play constantly but once in they lay on their bed quietly. They do get plenty of exercise and are therefore ready to settle once indoors. As someone else has said use eye contact and your voice to stop this behaviour in the house.


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## CorvusCorax (23 February 2013)

Toast said:



			We had a couple of incidences this morning where i was leaping up to separate them every 5 minutes but eventually i was so bored of their constant noise and things getting knocked off tables/cabinets ect that i had a 'mum really means it this time' moment and i've only had to reinforce it twice since.
		
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If you can differentiate between 'mum really means it this time' and when you're just getting out of your seat to get some peace and quiet and fully expect to do it again and again, then you can be sure as hell the dogs have known about the difference for a long time 

We're supposed to be the intelligent ones, but dogs are master readers of body language, mood and little things we could never even perceive, it's better to 'mean it' once or twice rather than not meaning it lots of times, consistency is key (said the owner of a noisy, bolshy, overly intelligent brat) and it is a lot fairer on the dogs, options/ambiguity is not good for them.


Tough mammy (not emotional, bad tempered mammy) will get a lot more done, especially at this age when she will be starting to push you a bit.


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## noodle_ (23 February 2013)

Toast said:



			The noise is so irritating isn't it! My pup is the instigator but its the collie that makes all the noise.. drives me crackers!
Im actually having a relatively quiet day though. I realised i think i was being too soft with my Rott, she's an ignorant madam. We had a couple of incidences this morning where i was leaping up to separate them every 5 minutes but eventually i was so bored of their constant noise and things getting knocked off tables/cabinets ect that i had a 'mum really means it this time' moment and i've only had to reinforce it twice since.
		
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yep its the irritating whining the puppy makes when he''s playing.... he cant help it as my other dog growls....but its normally started when they come down the stairs together its his cue to pounce on my older dog 

i do also find when i really loose it and shout at them "QUIET"..!!!!  they look at me as if to say "ohhh gone too far now..."... they settle.

has taken pup till 11 months old though to realise what it means when i yell!! 

it isnt easy you have my sympathy!! they are a PITA sometimes!


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## CorvusCorax (23 February 2013)

Just to add, to go back to Superhot and Alec, it would be lovely if all dogs could be trained using only all 'positive' methods but I don't think anybody can realistically say that NO dog EVER needs compulsion (I don't mean battering a dog, I mean, you WILL do this, you MUST do that, and set up the situation in a very controlled way where the dog cannot fail, using a lead, using a confined space, using your body, whatever.) 

To say otherwise is to say that a classroom full of 30 children from different households and different backgrounds will all filter information and learn in exactly the same way and I think we all know that is not true. 
One word in one way would make, say, a nervous Border Collie's world collapse around its' ears, the same would make a Rottie sit back in a chair and say 'Really?! Thrill me!'
Allowing a certain type of dog to choose its own behaviour (been there, cocked that up) can be a recipe for disaster.

I think it is weird that pressure and release seems to be fine with training horses but constitutes abuse with dog training.


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## Superhot (23 February 2013)

I do agree with you CaveCanem.  I wasn't advocating for a moment that you train dogs in a soft lovey dovey way.  Use of voice can be a brilliant tool to let your dog know you mean business.  Alecs post read as if he was suggesting physical pain, picking a dog up by its jowels, and I don't apologise for finding this behaviour abuse.  When I took my young Lab to a local gun dog training session, another handler couldn't get his dog to instantly carry out his command.  So he put his fingers inside the pups mouth, dug his nails in to its gums and lifted the dog up and hung it there.  Totally unnecessary behaviour from the handler.  What did the pup learn other than to be very fearful of his owner?  I told him that if I saw him do that again, I would get hold of him by his balls and squeeze very hard till he yelled.  Yes, there are times when you need to be firm, but there is never ever any excuse for cruelty.  
Anyway, to get back to the initial problem, has using a squirt of water been tried or any other of the other suggestions, and if so, what was the result?
Endless play cannot be allowed to take place, but I suspect the Rottie could equally be feeling unsettled with the recent move and dogs are very susceptible to our moods, and could well be picking up vibes from the owner .  I'm not saying this in order to give the dog an excuse for over the top play, just trying to put things into perspective.


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## SusieT (23 February 2013)

pressure and release with horses tends to be pressure and release-with dogs it tends to be a painful stimulus/really threatening behaviour.
The idea is that we as humans are bigger than dogs and smarter so should be able to manipulate situations anyway without needing to '*******' dogs. That tends to actually be a result of people losing their temper or being afraid of their dogs.


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## echodomino (24 February 2013)

Superhot said:



			Alecs post read as if he was suggesting physical pain, picking a dog up by its jowels, and I don't apologise for finding this behaviour abuse.  When I took my young Lab to a local gun dog training session, another handler couldn't get his dog to instantly carry out his command.  So he put his fingers inside the pups mouth, dug his nails in to its gums and lifted the dog up and hung it there.
		
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There's a difference between grabbing a dogs jowls and digging your nails into it's gums. From what I understand Alec didn't mean lift the whole dog up by it's jowls merely lift it slightly closer to you. The way I see it it's no different to scruffing a dog, doesn't hurt it but accompanied a growly "NO!" or just a growl lets the dog know it's stepped over the line and it isn't top dog. Watch the way dogs interact with each other or see how a mother dog teaches her puppies they're doing something they shouldn't.

My male Wire Viz growled at me the other day because he'd been told off for starting on the old male, he got his beard grabbed and himself pushed to the floor with a "NO!" because that's what would have happened to him (minus the NO! lol) if the old boy wasn't too past putting him in his place, that and the fact I didn't hurt him and didn't cause any injury as would have happened if the two had actually been able to start a fight. 

Generally find that the firm voice or the growly voice is enough to let them know you mean it. Oh and I only scruff my dogs if they're really in the wrong, like above when I was growled at, I don't do it every time I want the dogs to do something. 

CaveCanem, you're brave teaching speak!! Lol, my mum taught one of our GWPs years ago to speak, which then got turned into "say please" which resulted in Flora saying "please" every time she saw the cupboard or fridge doors open!!  Needless to say she wouldn't let me teach Flik the Viz baby to speak  Not that Queen Fliktoria needs any teaching she's a noisy bum any way.

RE Rottie training, I'd persevere with the crate and the firm voice if OP doesn't want to square up and tell her what for, although I'd have done it by now - once is usually enough for it to sink in that you mean it  *runs for cover*


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## Alec Swan (24 February 2013)

Superhot said:



			.......

Alecs post read as if he was suggesting physical pain, .......  

When I took my young Lab to a local gun dog training session, another handler couldn't get his dog to instantly carry out his command.  So he put his fingers inside the pups mouth, dug his nails in to its gums and lifted the dog up and hung it there.  ........
		
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You seem to have acquired the knack of misunderstanding and misquoting my posts.  I wouldn't worry too much,  you aren't alone!

For the sake of goodwill,  I'll make a final attempt at explanation;

Para 1.  Pain _in itself_ is of no use in the training of dogs,  except to drive aggression forwards.  There are those dogs which through their own history or breed type or mental make up,  can be difficult,  self willed,  or just plain bolshy.  Discomfort,  when it's expressed as pulling a dog about,  by the loose skin around its neck,  _from above or below,  _tends to get the dog's attention,  and those of recalcitrant bent,  _when young enough_ may benefit.  When I stick a proper bol.locking into a dog,  I want it's face before me,  so that A/  It realises that I mean it,  and B/ It's less likely to retaliate,  by defending itself and the whole exercise ending up in a fight.  It ISN'T a case of beating the dog,  but beating it at its own game.

Para 2.  I feel certain that you've completely misread,  misunderstood and misreported the events which you witnessed.  There is no way of lifting a dog up by it's jaw,  whilst digging his nails into its gums.  That would be pointless,  and achieve nothing,  and in the case of a Labrador dog of substantial weight,  would result in injury to either or both the dog,  or the handler.  

I suspect that what you witnessed was a handler encouraging a dog to release its dummy,  by applying pressure upon the gap between the molars,  by gently squeezing from the outside.  Many young dogs (more often male than female),  when they are unsure of themselves will take a grip on a dummy,  and refuse to release it.  It's a problem which needs dealing with,  with care and tact.  A tug-of-war is completely out of the question,  as is any form of violent or forceful insistence upon a release.  So what to do?  A gentle hand under the jaw,  which also holds the dummy for post release,  and the other hand which gently squeezes the lips,  as you would when opening a dog's mouth to place a worm tablet within.  It is neither barbaric nor cruel,  and if it's done without a sense of enforcement,  then the dog will very soon realise that it has nothing to fear.

Those dogs which take a firm hold on the dummy are all so often potentially good dogs which lack the confidence to face their handler.  The problem all so often is that when we bend down to take the dummy,  we can be seen as being aggressive with eye to eye contact,  and the dog will generally do one of two things,  it'll either spit the dummy out before arrival or do as I'm certain the dog did,  which you witnessed.

There's another poster on here who seems convinced that those who take a firm line with dogs are either bullies or they're frightened of their dogs.  I'm neither and I can assure you that I've trained a great many dogs,  with a degree of success.  My dogs don't fear me,  but they do respect me,  as I do them.

Think about my explanations above,  and if you're still convinced that I'm a fool,  then use the UI button,  it's the easier way! 

Alec.


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## CorvusCorax (24 February 2013)

SusieT said:



			pressure and release with horses tends to be pressure and release-with dogs it tends to be a painful stimulus/really threatening behaviour.
The idea is that we as humans are bigger than dogs and smarter so should be able to manipulate situations anyway without needing to '*******' dogs. That tends to actually be a result of people losing their temper or being afraid of their dogs.
		
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I spent a lot of today doing pressure and release, taut line until dog is where I want it, loose line when he gets there, feed or give ball on top of release of pressure, same if not better than with a horse as there is an additional reward on top of the release of pressure.

Using painful stimulus/really threatening behaviour with large dogs of German or Czech persuasion, will get one bitten, I find!!!


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## Superhot (24 February 2013)

The trouble with posting on forums is that you are not face to face, no inflection in the voice and can be misunderstood...that said, rest assured my eyesight is not failing me, and the incident I mentioned with the Lab did not involve a dummy.  We all had to stand in a circle, command our dogs and leave them, handlers walking into the middle of the circle.  When this particular Lab (pup about 4 months old) broke his stay, being picked up off the ground as I described, was his reward.  No, I don't think you are a fool...


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## malakai (25 February 2013)

As a very small lady with a rather large rott I've got to totally agree with Alec, softly softly will by no means get the required response from a powerful dog who could technically kill me with one bite (if he so dared!) I don't even have to raise my voice now to the old man, the tone does it all!  And yes, when he was a puppy he was pulled up face to face and told what for! A proper rollicking when he snapped at me for removing a bone and tbh he has never snapped again, I am boss in my house, what I say goes and I will not have it any other way.  There is no room for negotiation, no kinda getting away with something, when I say stop I mean stop.


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## Toast (25 February 2013)

malakai said:



			As a very small lady with a rather large rott I've got to totally agree with Alec, softly softly will by no means get the required response from a powerful dog who could technically kill me with one bite (if he so dared!) I don't even have to raise my voice now to the old man, the tone does it all!  And yes, when he was a puppy he was pulled up face to face and told what for! A proper rollicking when he snapped at me for removing a bone and tbh he has never snapped again, I am boss in my house, what I say goes and I will not have it any other way.  There is no room for negotiation, no kinda getting away with something, when I say stop I mean stop.
		
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Its interesting you should say this as i have in the last 2 days adopted the face to face and told what for tactic and its worked wonders. I just think i was initially being too soft!


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## CorvusCorax (25 February 2013)

Yay, Toast is Tough Mammy  

I am sure she will not be traumatised by the experience, also, you're better doing this now as it will be much harder when she's a big lump of a thing!


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## malakai (26 February 2013)

I'm pleased its working for you! And I promise she will love you just as much for giving her boundaries  

Remember, your word is law!!


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## Alec Swan (26 February 2013)

Thank you malakai,  I feel vindicated! 

I do find it strange though,  how those with an apparent lack of experience,  will join together and tell me that I'm wrong,  in that a forceful approach is the generally the answer to a dog which refuses any other entreaties,  and yet when others recommend the use of electric collars,  then they are strangely silent. 

I have never used an electric collar,  and I never will.  I'm quite happy for others to do so,  but I lack the experience and have no wish to experiment,  with the dog as my victim.

Perhaps,  as Dry Rot says,  there are others who know better.

Alec.


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## CorvusCorax (26 February 2013)

Playing devil's advocate, but some might argue that a collar set on vibrate or on the very lightest tingle (I would describe it to having lemonade spilt on my hand) would not be as forceful as drawing a dog up to your head height by it's jowls.

Having said that, I don't use one either  I've tried one on myself millions of times but I'd have to be confident in my own timing and if I was going to use one, I would prefer to spend the months introducing it properly rather than just whacking it on and pressing a button, that's the entirely wrong way to use it IMO.


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