# Thuja Cream & Tablets For Sarcoids -Advice Please!



## DougalJ (5 June 2010)

After still over a two month wait from Liverpool for my warmbloods sarcoid treatment, I am still no further on sorting treatment. After alot of thought and deliberations I have decided to delay the Liverpool Cream (when and if its prescribed) for the time being due to flies and the summer heat. I have spoken to my vet about it and she totally agrees not to treat with Liverpool Cream in this weather and wait until the flies are not a problem. (very frustrating as started this all back in March!) My boys sarcoids have not changed (a number in sensitive groin area so again not too happy going down the Liverpool route) but feel I need to do something and am very interested in going down the homoepathic route with this. After alot of research etc etc, treating with Thuja seems to be very effective. Can anyone give me their opinion and experiences with using Thuja on sarcoids and what dosage, length of time to use etc. Big thanks!


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## touchstone (5 June 2010)

Hello there, my mare has a few sarcoids and the vets advice was to leave alone rather than go down the Liverpool cream route.

I bought thuja cream and tablets from Hilton Herbs, they sent them out with a leaflet explaining use, I used the 200c tablets one given twice a week and applied the cream daily. (I think the 30c tablets are given daily but I may be wrong.)
 Initially the sarcoid seemed to get softer and then began breaking down and was certainly smaller.   It did take a long time to see any difference.   They haven't gone completely though. It could be that I stopped using the tablets too early, I still apply the cream and the sarcoid certainly isn't getting worse. I thinmk they say that it can take up to a year of use to work.

Using something to boost the immune system is supposed to help the horses own body to clear them too. Hilton herbs sold their own formula but I didn't use this so can't comment.

I think it is a really good thing to try  before going in with Liverpool cream over the summer and there are reports of thuja clearing them up completely, so hopefully this may be the case for your horse.


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## iconique (5 June 2010)

We had problems with warts and used Ainsworths - they have a pharmacy which can give advice on dosage and what to use in the homeopathic sense plus they post out.  We had good sucess, but it wasn't just thuja that we had, they also sent something else?  It took a good few weeks before we started seeing a difference and took months to clear it to a good level.

http://www.ainsworths.com/site/default.aspx


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## Booboos (5 June 2010)

From the American Cancer Society:

"Available scientific evidence does not support claims that thuja or its extract is safe or effective. Taken internally, the herb can cause serious side effects, and it may be toxic in large doses. The essential oil contained in the tree, also known as cedar leaf oil, is not generally sold for internal use. It is poisonous and can also irritate or burn skin and eyes."

"Available scientific evidence does not support claims that thuja is effective in treating cancer or any other disease. The medical literature contains no studies on the effects of thuja as an herbal remedy in humans, and there is very little scientific data to verify that the herb has any therapeutic value."

Therefore not only a waste of money, but potentially a dangerous waste of money.


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## Destiny95 (5 June 2010)

Have you considered surgery? We have a grey that was covered in sarcoids - weepy bloody ones - girth area, ears, groin etc. It was awful because we thought we would have to have him put down as the cream route would have made us bankrupt. Our vet suggested surgery - literally cutting them all off and then treating with cream what came back. We had the surgery three years ago under general anesthetic. Yes it was butchery and yes he was sore (we had lots of pain killers) but after a couple of days he was OK and back home. And - while I am touching lots of wood while I am saying this - they haven't come back! We haven't used any cream or anything and we have been riding him and enjoying him.


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## touchstone (5 June 2010)

Booboos said:



			From the American Cancer Society:

"Available scientific evidence does not support claims that thuja or its extract is safe or effective. Taken internally, the herb can cause serious side effects, and it may be toxic in large doses. The essential oil contained in the tree, also known as cedar leaf oil, is not generally sold for internal use. It is poisonous and can also irritate or burn skin and eyes."

"Available scientific evidence does not support claims that thuja is effective in treating cancer or any other disease. The medical literature contains no studies on the effects of thuja as an herbal remedy in humans, and there is very little scientific data to verify that the herb has any therapeutic value."

Therefore not only a waste of money, but potentially a dangerous waste of money.
		
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As you rightly say thuja can be toxic in large doses taken internally, however homeopathy uses miniscule amounts of thuja, to the degree that 'scientifically' it shouldn't have any effect on the body at all.   The whole point about the external essential oil application being toxic is that it needs to get rid of the problem growth, liverpool cream and bloodroot are pretty toxic too!  Again though that is different to the homeopathic use which is pretty harmless.


I forgot to mention that I was advised not to feed mint or garlic at the same time, and it is best not to handle the tablets, just drop them on a piece of apple or something.


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## ottodyl1 (5 June 2010)

My mare started to develop sarcoids as a 4 year old, initially v small & innocuous.  I tried the Hilton herbs remedies but unfortunately some of them got bigger & so went down the Liverpool cream route when she was a 5 yr old.  A couple of the sarcoids were inside the thigh but apart from some scarring there is no evidence of them.  She is now 15 & has had no further problems with them until developing a small one a couple of years ago in a different place.  It is not bothering her & does not seem to be getting dramatically bigger so have left it alone for now.
Don't think I would bother with homeopathic treatment again in future.  The Liverpool cream has definitely proved effective, although there is a chance of the sarcoids returning whatever treatment is used.


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## Booboos (5 June 2010)

touchstone said:



			As you rightly say thuja can be toxic in large doses taken internally, however homeopathy uses miniscule amounts of thuja, to the degree that 'scientifically' it shouldn't have any effect on the body at all.   The whole point about the external essential oil application being toxic is that it needs to get rid of the problem growth, liverpool cream and bloodroot are pretty toxic too!  Again though that is different to the homeopathic use which is pretty harmless.


I forgot to mention that I was advised not to feed mint or garlic at the same time, and it is best not to handle the tablets, just drop them on a piece of apple or something.
		
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A homeopathically dilluted version of thuja would be pretty indistinguishable from a homeopathically dilluted version of anything else. Homeopathic dillutions vary from 1:10,000 to 1:1,000,000,000,000 (6C) to 12C (double the previous dillution but too many 0s!). 12C is the most common. The higher the dilution the higher the claimed potency, ironically it then becomes impossible to detect the original substance or distinguish one homeopathic solution from another.

So, either dangerous or non-existent - take your pick.

Yes, Liverpool cream is toxic which is why it can only be administered by a vet under the supervision of a specialist vet.


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## DougalJ (5 June 2010)

Quite a mixed reaction then...... The frustrating thing is that I have been waiting since March was a Liverpool Cream prescription!! I dont think this is acceptable personally and I have had mixed advice from knowledgable horses friends that this can be quite an aggressive and toxic treatment and they come back sometimes even worse? I also am not keen to persue this through the summer months with flies (and I dont have the prescription yet!!) so what do I do??


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## cundlegreen (5 June 2010)

I had a grey TB come here to be sold, and I noticed he had a smooth lump up against his jawbone. I got thuja tincture (not sure what strength) and rubbed it on twice a day, and gave him about 5 ml every day for two weeks. I think I'm right in saying that you should only give for a limited amount of time and then take a break. The lump vanished at some stage leaving no trace.
I use a homeopathic practice who can test urine and faeces samples for deficiencies/ imbalances, and then make you up a liquid or powder supplement. Don't forget that sarcoids are related to a depressed immune system.
I keep an open mind about such things, but have been using homeopathic  treatments for many years and have had some very amazing results ( sometimes not) You can't say its a placebo effect if its used on a horse or other animal, and why would you want to use harmful chemicals if they can be avoided? PM me if you want any contact details.


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## touchstone (5 June 2010)

Personally I would go down the homeopathic route over the summer months and then if no improvement in Autumn give the more aggressive treatments a try or if the condition worsens prior to this.   This link might help if you want to discuss options with a homeopathic vet:- http://www.bahvs.com/

It is true that scientifically homeopathy can't be proven in how it works, however there is plenty of anecdotal evidence to prove that it is effective and it certainly won't do any harm so you can't lose out really, for the sake of a fiver or so I would think it was worth a try.

The fact is that science doesn't know everything, and if it works I don't care whether science says it isn't possible or not.


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## wishfulthinking (6 June 2010)

I have used thuja 30c with great results on two horses. 

To be honest I used it in quite a haphazard way. 

The first horse was a broodmare with one on her midline near the girth, hazelnut size. Gave her the tabs two or three times a day for a few days then none, then some more, you get the idea! Went out about three weeks after first dose and it had gone overnight. No signs of change until then. 

The other was a three year old filly, again on the midline at the girth a little bigger than the last. Gave her tabs once a day for about two weeks then none then a few more. Again just dropped off one night after about a month. 

worth a shot if you ask me.


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## Honey08 (7 June 2010)

I've had two horses with sarcoids.  The first, a grey pony, had hers removed by the vet, and has never had any since.  The second has a few warts (tiny( on his face, and two lumps around his sheath that were diagnosed as sarcoids during his vetting.  We changed vets when we got him, and the new vet is "old school", ie if it aint bothering him, leave it for now.  She recommended makinga paste from tea tree oil anl lemongrass, which we applied to the sarcoids.  One disappeared completely, the other went much smaller...  Worth a try perhaps?


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## messenger (8 June 2010)

I have just put mine on Hilton Herbs Equimmune. It's a general immune supplement and has some good reviews with sarccoids. It's too early to tell yet as my chap had one surgically removed a month ago so watch this space.


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## DougalJ (8 June 2010)

Thanks for all your advice - I have given my boy his first does of Thuja this morning and am going to do this for 5-7 days. I think I will try a paste on one of his sarcoids and see if we have any results. Also I will give him a break from the Thuja tablets and then try some Sarc-X. He has had these sarcoids for a number of years and all the vets have said leave alone if not affecting him.One has grown quite quickly so am going to try and see if this helps - if not the last resort will be Liverpool Cream after the fliey and sticky months have gone.


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## Passtheshampoo (8 June 2010)

One of my mares had LC treatment last summer on about a dozen small sarcoids (I smothered the areas treated in Equigel to keep the flies off. Fingers and everything else Xd they have all gone and have left very little scarring. My dilemma was should I go down the expensive route first within the insurance deadline or risk cheaper self administered "remedies" first. Once your vet has seen them the clock is ticking. My mares vet's treatment lasted approx 6 months from initial visit to the last review visit. 

Obviously if she gets any more I'll have to try Thuja. In the meantime she gets a decent all round vit/min supplement.

My only other thought was during the summer if you leave sarcoids untreated is a horse at risk of them spreading as flies will probably bite them anyway and rebite somewhere else on the body??


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## brighteyes (8 June 2010)

Not sure I would put anything ON the sarcoids, but think thuja, in spite of not being proven as effective, may be safely taken internally as homeopathic directions advise.  As it's only about £6 for a small bottle, it's not going to ruin you financially, nor harm the horse.  If it works, you are quids in! 

Applying anything to the sarcoid itself, which is not under veterinary direction or supervision is, IMO, inadvisable.


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## DougalJ (28 June 2010)

Well well.... I gave my gelding 5 days on the Thuja tablets (about 2 weeks ago now) and then on to Sarc-X and I bought him in this morning to find one sarcoid has just dropped off and 6 flat but crusty sarcoids have disappeared into the skin just leaving faint marks. The large tennis ball size one which has been the main problem in the groin has changed to a smaller oval shape!! I cannot believe the results! Now do I leave him on the Sarc-X or give another 5 day dose of the Thuja - anybody with experience of giving Thuja let me know what you think? ....and if anyone is thinking about it - give it go, read this post because I had my doubts but we are all stunned at my yard with the results.


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## LazyS (28 June 2010)

You are very lucky to have good results from Thuja (have not tried Sarc-X). Last year I notice a sarcoid had developed and became unsightly (on the chest). I tried the horse on Thuja tablets and cream for over a month - on advise of my vet - before doing anything more drastic and expensive. It got worse! In February I had him treated with the Liverpool cream. After 60 days the horrid solid scab - the size of the lid on the tomato ketchup - fell off. Unfortunately there were still sarcoid cells underneath, at the sides so he had another course last week. The reaction has been pretty horrendous and I could cry for putting my beautiful horse through that. Both chest muscles swelled and he shuffled painfully around in the field. He is on two sachets of Danilon daily. The sarcoid itself resembles a volcano with a black crusty crater in the middle and swelling all around. Though it is getting better daily, and he stopped shuffling on Sunday, thank god. He is getting much better now but it is not the best time of year for treatment like this with the flies about, and now the horseflies are here too! I have him in during the day and out with a fly rug on at night. I have read so much about sarcoids and so many more horses seem to have them. My story is an ongoing one but I think I would say don't mess about with herbal remedies - a sarcoid is a skin cancer after all - get the vet to help you.


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## Twellis (2 July 2010)

Hi

I have used thuja successfully on myself for a wart on my hand but not on horses. My horse had several sarcoids which we treated with Virkon E, this was 15 years ago, he is now 20 and they have not reoccured. It is now marketed as Virkon S I think. Not sure if it is usual to use it for sarcoids but may be worth a try as it worked for my boy.

Good luck!


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## ofcourseyoucan (2 July 2010)

the more dilute a homeopathic remedy is the more effective/toxic it is!! why is your vet still waiting for a response rom liverpool? sadly i have had dealings with several cases of sarcoids and have NEVER waited more than 14 days from initial vet visit , photos etc to treatment! chase your vet to chase liverpool! dont mess with sarcoids in the homeaopathic routes! my thoughts only


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## touchstone (3 July 2010)

Homeopathic remedies aren't toxic:- http://www.rense.com/general11/manner.htm

There is a difference between effectiveness and toxicity.


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## aldato_daz (4 July 2010)

I used Thuja cream and tablets (30c) 2 years ago on my geldings sarcoids, which were on his sheath.  One sracoid had grown to the size of a ping pong ball, but it wasnt angry looking.  Within weeks (if i can remember) the sarcoid just fell off! No scarring, no pain, no nothing! So in my opinion it is great stuff! Currently treating a smaller one that was beside the original one and it is getting smaller. I could probably just ignore it as it really is  not doing any harm, but I just worry in case it gets bigger.

My idea was that i would try a natural route first before vet treatment, and it worked for me!

Many different opinions on the stuff, horses are all different!

Try it!

C


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## Lindala (4 July 2010)

I cant understand why you are having to wait so long for your Liverpool cream, I have never heard of anyone who had to wait longer than about a week before. Chase them up. But, are you getting this on your insurance as it is very expensive.  I had 6 groin sarcoids treated (thankfully on insurance) and it cost nearly £2,000.  If you are not insured, and the sarcoids are the lump type, banding them is very cheap.  Either tie an elastic band very tightly around the base or use the banding tool that farmers use for lambs tails.  Get hold of the lump and pull it a little so that you get your band as far down as possible. I have used this method on one sacoid successfully.  It does scar but hey, that's no problem. The sacoid will take about 6 - 8 weeks at least to drop off.  Good luck with whatever method you use, sarcoids are horrible and very common thing.


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## Cinnamontoast (7 July 2010)

I would keep up the Sarc-ex as it claims to boost immunity. It sounds like you've had fabulous results! Just keep a close eye to ensure no more pop up.

I don't understand why you had to wait so long for Liverpool cream-I emailed pics to my vet which were then sent to Liverpool and the cream was in my hands within a fortnight. 

I have heard amazing things about Fucibet, a human prescription only anti-fungal/bacteria cream which a friend managed to get from a nice chemist nearby. She used it on her youngster's sarcoid and within a week, the lump had virtually gone. Dunno if it's coincidence or the cream, but I figure it's worth a shot.

Anything with bloodroot e.g. Sarc-off is also meant to be very effective.


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## DougalJ (11 August 2010)

Well yesterday the huge sarcoid the size of a tennis ball fell off yesterday with a little help from my vet. My warmblood has had 2 courses of Thuja tablets and all but 3 have now fallen off. The large one has left a hole which is closing quite rapidly and kept clean with hibiscrub and away from flies. The final 3 are now banded and then a little Liverpool Cream will be placed on the residue left to clear. I honestly think that Thuja has played a vital part in the removal of these sarcoids. I have been at my wits end with these horrible things and I think without using it the tennis ball one would just grow and grow. I appreciate members advice that homeopathic can be a bit tricky to know that you are doing the right thing by your horse but I have throughly researched sarcoids and I felt this was the final road to go down. I hope he will be sarcoid clear.....but I know what these horrible grey bumps are like!


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