# HELP, bucksin foal wanted from my grey connemara mare



## durydancer (15 June 2013)

Hi there! in the next few years I am looking to breed my purebred dapple grey Connemara, I have been looking at a few of the forums and getting myself confused.  is grey the dominant gene? If so, does this mean Dancer (my mare) would be unable to produce a buckskin foal? I know it sounds picky to want a specific colour but I love them.  If grey isn't the dominant gene would I have to find a homozygous stallion for the buckskin coat colour? 
I have attached pictures of my mare who is slowly turning white! the picture of her at her darkest was only one year ago! she has changed a lot












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## durydancer (15 June 2013)

or a dun foal!


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## Meowy Catkin (15 June 2013)

If you are breeding to another Connie, you can't get dun because they don't have the Dun gene in the breed. But Buckskin is possible as Connies do have the Cream gene.

RE grey - it is dominant, so if a horse has one copy (or two copies) it will grey out. 

Do you know what colour she was before she greyed out?
Do you know if she has one or two grey parents (and what colours they were before they greyed out)?


ETA. Even if she only has one copy of grey, breeding her to a non grey will still mean a 50% chance of getting a grey. If the colour is top of your list, it might be worth buying a buckskin or bay dun youngster. Have a look at Havenbeech Stud as they have a Welsh creamello stallion and breed some very nice buckskin foals by him.


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## durydancer (15 June 2013)

Faracat said:



			If you are breeding to another Connie, you can't get dun because they don't have the Dun gene in the breed. But Buckskin is possible as Connies do have the Cream gene.

RE grey - it is dominant, so if a horse has one copy (or two copies) it will grey out.

Do you know what colour she was before she greyed out?
Do you know if she has one or two grey parents (and what colours they were before they greyed out)?
		
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her sire was grey, his grandsire was dun and gran dam was grey, and her dam was grey, with a grey grandsire and unknown granddam.  there are quite a few buckskins and duns in her breeding. which confuses me slightly as it says 'dun' on their breeding? so how is the dun gene present if its not in the breed. 

I don't know what colour she was before, but obviously she has black legs, and kind of yellow/light brown fleabitten parts on her face.  is it possible she was maybe dun before and the grey came through?

and so as she is grey, does this mean it will be impossible for me to get any other colour foal apart from grey? thanks


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## elijahasgal (15 June 2013)

Grey gene fades them, it overwrites any other colour.
Depending if your mare has one or two copies og the grey gene as to wether you have a chance of another colour.

If you have one gene, you have a 50% chance of getting a non grey foal.

http://www.jenniferhoffman.net/horse/horse-color-genetics.html#3800300000

this is a brilliant and visual site that is great at helping understand the genes


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## Meowy Catkin (15 June 2013)

Ok, so both of her parents were grey. Therefore it's possible that she has two copies of grey. It might be worth getting her DNA tested. If she has two copies of grey, every foal that she has _will_ grey out.

Buckskin and bay Dun look very similar, but they are genetically different. The 'duns' in her pedigree were really buckskin. 
http://www.whitehorseproductions.com/ecg_basics2.html
^ look at the cream and dun sections on here to learn the difference. 

She could have been buckskin before she greyed out, but as I said earlier, you might find it easier to buy what you want. If however, you really want to breed from this mare and a buckskin foal would be the 'icing on the cake' then that's a different matter.


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## Amazona (15 June 2013)

You should have a look at Mill park Spanish horses 
     They have some very smart dun stallions 

http://www.millpark-andalusians.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=12&Itemid=34


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## durydancer (15 June 2013)

Ohhhh okay I understand the buckskin dun thing, not as confusing as I thought! So is there a way of getting her genetically tested to see it she has two grey genes? And what is the rough price? Thank you everyone for the help


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## durydancer (15 June 2013)

And thank you amazona but I think I want to keep the foal purebred connemara


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## Clodagh (15 June 2013)

She is lovely. My favourite dun/buckskin connie stallion is Dale Vardor.
BUT I think, from reading on here, that grey and cremello togather can cause fatal melanomas so if so if she has the cream gene and the stallion does aswell that may be a risk?
I will see if I can find the tread.


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## Clodagh (15 June 2013)

Thread, even!

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=615254


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## durydancer (15 June 2013)

That is so interesting thank you for that! I think I'm definitely going to get her genetically tested, hadn't even heard of the melanoma risk with the colours!! And that stallion is absolutely gorgeous!


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## s4sugar (15 June 2013)

You would need to test for grey, cream & red and I think they may do a discount  -otherwise just test grey & if she is homozygous any foal she has will grey out.

If she has cream she could produce a buckskin to a bay stallion but a buckskin stallion could give a perlino or cremello foal.


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## durydancer (15 June 2013)

Thank you, can I just get the vet to test her for it?


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## s4sugar (15 June 2013)

http://www.animalgenetics.eu/Equine/equine-cost-pound.html You send in 20 -30 hairs pulled with the rooot from mane or tail. 
Looking at costs I would just test grey first as if she is homozygous any foal has to go grey.


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## durydancer (15 June 2013)

Thank you! But on the website it said; 
G/g	Grey	Positive for dominant grey gene, carrying a single inherited copy. Carrier's coat modified and will eventually become de-pigmented. Heterozygous grey horses are statistically likely to pass the gene to 50% of their progeny when bred. So the offspring would fade out to grey even if she had one grey gene? Or am I confused


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## s4sugar (15 June 2013)

durydancer said:



			Thank you! But on the website it said; 
G/g	Grey	Positive for dominant grey gene, carrying a single inherited copy. Carrier's coat modified and will eventually become de-pigmented. Heterozygous grey horses are statistically likely to pass the gene to 50% of their progeny when bred. So the offspring would fade out to grey even if she had one grey gene? Or am I confused
		
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A grey horse has either one or two copies of the grey gene. If she had a non-grey parent you would know she is G/g as she could only get the gene from one parent but as both of her parents could have passed her the gene she could equally be G/G -homozygous grey and only able to produce grey foals.
The test will tell you which she is.


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## gadetra (15 June 2013)

On the stallion side, if you are looking for performance there are so many good duns out there!
The Daddy of all performing duns is Templebready fear Buí. He is getting on a bit now, not sure of he's still around actually but there should be straws around. 
http://templebready.zzl.org/
He really is a legend and has prodced some mighty stock, pure and half breds.
His son Templebready Fear Glic is about though.
I'm not a huge expert on Connie lines but there are a good few performance lads out there. The connemara pony breeders society is a good place to start, I don't know what the english eqivelant (sp?) is, might be worth looking them up.
I am absolutely no help with the colour thing. As long as it isn't a chestnut filly I'm happy


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## windand rain (16 June 2013)

If your mares parents were grey it is unlikely she will have anything but a grey baby. Sorry not to be more enthusiastic but it is very likely she is homozygous grey
My connie has no grey at all and is bay with a buckskin dam and black sire


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## durydancer (16 June 2013)

gadetra said:



			On the stallion side, if you are looking for performance there are so many good duns out there!
The Daddy of all performing duns is Templebready fear Buí. He is getting on a bit now, not sure of he's still around actually but there should be straws around. 
http://templebready.zzl.org/
He really is a legend and has prodced some mighty stock, pure and half breds.
His son Templebready Fear Glic is about though.
I'm not a huge expert on Connie lines but there are a good few performance lads out there. The connemara pony breeders society is a good place to start, I don't know what the english eqivelant (sp?) is, might be worth looking them up.
I am absolutely no help with the colour thing. As long as it isn't a chestnut filly I'm happy 

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wow!!! he looks so lovely, his colouring is amazing! and hardly any generations away from the first ever Connemara apparently! impressive.  hahaha I think id just be happy for anything now, aslong as she/he has the same temperament as my mare but not as 'feisty' when shes in season haha


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## edenwood (16 June 2013)

We have a buckskin connie stallion who we have had colour tested. His name is dark stranger pm me if your interested. We have a website www.claresconnemaras.com


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## s4sugar (16 June 2013)

edenwood said:



			We have a buckskin connie stallion who we have had colour tested. His name is dark stranger pm me if your interested. We have a website www.claresconnemaras.com

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What difference does it make if your stallion is colour tested? A buckskin can only have one copy of cream and has to have agouti.

What does matter is the mares colour.


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## Clodagh (17 June 2013)

edenwood said:



			We have a buckskin connie stallion who we have had colour tested. His name is dark stranger pm me if your interested. We have a website www.claresconnemaras.com

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I like him. He is very dark, it is a lovely colour.


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## Meowy Catkin (17 June 2013)

edenwood said:



			We have a buckskin connie stallion who we have had colour tested. His name is dark stranger pm me if your interested. We have a website www.claresconnemaras.com

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You really need to update your website and list his colour as Sooty Buckskin and not Dark Dun, especially as you know (you have DNA tested him after all) that he does not have the Dun gene. 

I know that it has only been since the advent of DNA testing that the difference between Bay Dun and Buckskin has been fully understood. However, the sooner that stallion owners advertise their stallions accurately, the better.


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## whisp&willow (17 June 2013)

Op:  As others have rightly said, at best you have 50% chance of breeding a buckskin out of your grey mare.

DNA testing will let you know if you have a 50/50 or 100% chance of the offspring being or turning grey.

If I were you I would DNA test, but if breeding with a specific colour in mind, would forget it and buy instead.


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## edenwood (17 June 2013)

Unfortunately the Connemara world still use the colour dun even if they are buckskin so that is why we have left our stallion as advertise as dark dun because it confuses people otherwise. The most important thing is that we inform people that he is carrying the creme gene. We are still trying to make people understand that even a grey Connemara pony could still be carrying the creme gene which can really confuse some of the connie people.


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## Meowy Catkin (17 June 2013)

edenwood said:



			Unfortunately the Connemara world still use the colour dun even if they are buckskin so that is why we have left our stallion as advertise as dark dun because it confuses people otherwise. The most important thing is that we inform people that he is carrying the creme gene. We are still trying to make people understand that even a grey Connemara pony could still be carrying the creme gene which can really confuse some of the connie people.
		
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People need to get with the times! Pandering to their ignorance isn't the way to go IMO.


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## s4sugar (17 June 2013)

edenwood said:



			Unfortunately the Connemara world still use the colour dun even if they are buckskin so that is why we have left our stallion as advertise as dark dun because it confuses people otherwise. The most important thing is that we inform people that he is carrying the creme gene. We are still trying to make people understand that even a grey Connemara pony could still be carrying the creme gene which can really confuse some of the connie people.
		
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But he is not "carrying the creme gene" . He is expressing his single copy of cream.


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## Clodagh (17 June 2013)

I agree with Edenwood, expecting people to move with the times and pleasing your customers can be two different things. They say he has the cream gene and describe his colour as dark dun...ticks all the boxes that you need to know genetically!


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## Meowy Catkin (17 June 2013)

What's wrong with _Sooty Buckskin (dark Dun)_ as a compromise?


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## Clodagh (17 June 2013)

That would do fine.


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## Truly (20 June 2013)

I think you should write Sooty Buckskin (formerly known as Dark Dun)...just like The Artist formerly known as Prince lol


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## Meowy Catkin (20 June 2013)




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## ILuvCowparsely (20 June 2013)

Depends on the gene. 

 my late mare was a dun but she turned rose grey .
  her son if pure palomino after his dad. Sedgehill Gold has VERY strong genes so you could get palomino if you wanted one 

You need to do some research .http://www.cotesbachquarterhorses.com/our-services/


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## ILuvCowparsely (20 June 2013)

windand rain said:



			If your mares parents were grey it is unlikely she will have anything but a grey baby. Sorry not to be more enthusiastic but it is very likely she is homozygous grey
My connie has no grey at all and is bay with a buckskin dam and black sire
		
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not all my mare was dun turned  grey but had palomino foal from a palomino stallion


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## Dogrose (20 June 2013)

Leviathan said:



			Depends on the gene. 

 my late mare was a dun but she turned rose grey .
  her son if pure palomino after his dad. Sedgehill Gold has VERY strong genes so you could get palomino if you wanted one 

You need to do some research .http://www.cotesbachquarterhorses.com/our-services/

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The mare would need to carry the chestnut gene for the chance of a palomino, genes are there or not, they aren't strong or weak.


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## crellow4 (20 June 2013)

Leviathan said:



			not all my mare was dun turned  grey but had palomino foal from a palomino stallion
		
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Your mare was Buckskin not Dun and carried 1 copy if the grey modifier, along with red. It has been suggested the OP test to establish if her mare carries 2 copies of grey - if she does then ALL her foals will grey out. Even using a double dilute stallion, she only stands a 50% chance of breeding a Buckskin or Palomino because her mare is at least heterozygous for grey.


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## Meowy Catkin (20 June 2013)

I've read this strong/weak genes thing a couple of times on here recently.




			my late mare was a dun but she turned rose grey .
her son if pure palomino after his dad. Sedgehill Gold has VERY strong genes so you could get palomino if you wanted one
		
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			He is lovely. I am sure the only H Tobago foal I have seen that isn't chestnut is Maesfen's...his Mum must have verry strong bay genes!
		
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I really don't mean to pick on either of the posters quoted above, it's just that they have both misunderstood how genes work.

Genes are either recessive or dominant. With base colour it's very simple. Black is dominant over chestnut. You need two chestnut genes for a horse to look chestnut (or be a chestnut based colour). 

You don't get strong chestnut genes and weak chestnut genes - they are recessive to black and that's that. on the flip side, you don't get weak or strong black genes, they are dominant over chestnut and that's that too.

Taking the top example (palomino foal from a buckskin/grey mare), The stallion must have passed a chestnut gene to the foal and the mare must have passed a chestnut gene to the foal (palomino is chestnut based) and then one parent passed on the cream gene required to make a palomino coat. 

It's all about odds (the mare must have had one black gene and one chestnut, so it was 50% / 50% which she passed on - nothing to do with weak or strong. The same goes for the stallion (who I believe is a pally), so he was chestnut based so 100% chance of him passing on a chestnut gene, therefore the base colour was up to the dam in this case. As they both had one copy of cream - flip a coin as to who passed it on. 

I'm glad that you got the palomino foal that you wanted. 

RE Tobago, he is chestnut, so can only pass on chestnut to his foals. If he is to sire black or black based colours, the black gene needs to come from the mare. Nothing to do with strength, again it's odds. If the mare is homozygous for black, every foal that she has with Tobago will be black or black based. If she's heterozygous, then it's 50% / 50%, black / chestnut.


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## JillA (20 June 2013)

To pour some cold water............if you are that sure of what you want, your best bet is to go out and buy a foal or yearling someone else has taken the risk of breeding. Then you can see its colour and conformation before you commit to it - I bred over 20 foals over the years and probably 1 in 4 or 5 had a confirmation problem, despite carefully selecting mare and sire.


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## Clodagh (20 June 2013)

I will get defensive, although not offended! I joked about H Tobago. I do understand genes, I breed chickens primarily to play with new colours so have to be fairly clued up.
So, it was a joke about all his foals being chestnut...although most of them are! ;-)


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## Meowy Catkin (20 June 2013)

Clodagh you really are everso naughty. Why have you failed to abide by HHO rule number 385 (all jokes must be accompanied by  or  smiley, so that the denser readers *not me guvner - honest* can tell that it's a joke)?


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## Clodagh (20 June 2013)

If you would please, please, please tell me how to get smileys back - I lost them in the upgrade - I would be delighted to pepper every post liberally... HELP!!


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## ILuvCowparsely (20 June 2013)

Clodagh said:



			If you would please, please, please tell me how to get smileys back - I lost them in the upgrade - I would be delighted to pepper every post liberally... HELP!!
		
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http://www.runemasterstudios.com/graemlins/ smilies for h&H


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## ILuvCowparsely (20 June 2013)

crellow4 said:



			Your mare was Buckskin not Dun and carried 1 copy if the grey modifier, along with red. It has been suggested the OP test to establish if her mare carries 2 copies of grey - if she does then ALL her foals will grey out. Even using a double dilute stallion, she only stands a 50% chance of breeding a Buckskin or Palomino because her mare is at least heterozygous for grey.
		
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My mare was a dun not a buckskin


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## ILuvCowparsely (20 June 2013)

Faracat said:



			I


I'm glad that you got the palomino foal that you wanted. 

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I never wanted palomino.

 I wanted a dun , but my mare would not stand for him  (Tinsel King) and fell in love with Jed SedgeHill Gold. hence why i have palomino


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## Meowy Catkin (20 June 2013)

Leviathan said:



			My mare was a dun not a buckskin
		
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This mare? She's absolutely stunning.







I don't know why people seem to hold Dun above buckskin in terms of value? Neither are super fancy or rare (although buckskin is more common than Dun in the UK due to the cream gene in Connies and Weshies).


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## ILuvCowparsely (21 June 2013)

Faracat said:



			This mare? She's absolutely stunning.







I don't know why people seem to hold Dun above buckskin in terms of value? Neither are super fancy or rare (although buckskin is more common than Dun in the UK due to the cream gene in Connies and Weshies).
		
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yes Faracat she was


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## s4sugar (21 June 2013)

Faracat said:



			I don't know why people seem to hold Dun above buckskin in terms of value? Neither are super fancy or rare (although buckskin is more common than Dun in the UK due to the cream gene in Connies and Weshies).
		
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I don't think they do consider one more valuable over the other - they just get the terms incorrect. Many people still believe they are the same - including, it seems, some breed societies.

Nice mare but looks buckskin rather than dun.


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## windand rain (21 June 2013)

Its mostly because certain pure breeds carry the dun gene and others dont so for example a highland (carrying the gene) x with a TB can be Dun
A connemara (never carrying the gene) x with TB will be buckskin but can never be a dun
Hence the confusion 
Connemaras and TB dont have the gene to create dun but Connies do have dilute genes hence the buckskin colouring You will never get a pure TB with dilutes genes and will never get a pure British Native with splodges as they dont carry the correct genes (except shetlands)
They may look coloured though as some especially Welshies as they carry sabino and may well look like they are patched


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