# Getting a referral for Rockley Farm from vet



## Michen (24 February 2015)

I promise one day I will stop with the daily posts asking for advice  

Right...Providing the MRI for my horse on Friday doesn't show anything that's beyond hope or repair, I want my horse to go to Rockley. He's insured, with petplan (not sure whether they pay out for stuff like this) but to be honest,  I'd happily pay the full cost if it was going to give him the best possible chance. 

Trouble is my vet is not keen at all. All she's seen of Rockley is a video of a horse in shoes when it arrived, on a hard tight circle which was clearly very lame. The "finished" video was then the horse, without shoes, on a large circle on a surface, clearly very sound! So sadly she's now sceptical.

Where he is going for his MRI, work up etc is also his direct vet practice, they are a large practice. So, if she refuses to refer- what are my options? Can I insist it is reviewed by other vets at the practice? Or send his details to another practice? What would the insurance companies view on this be, I'm guessing I can't just send my horses details repeatedly until a vet gives him a referral....


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## Ronalda (24 February 2015)

Ask Nic.


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## Scarlett (24 February 2015)

You're totally within your rights to get a different vet, or demand a referral. You're the customer at the end of the day and the vet is providing a service.


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## criso (24 February 2015)

Ronalda said:



			Ask Nic.
		
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This

It won't be the first time though many vets have agreed once they've spoken to her.  You do have to call your vet and tell them you have given your permission to discuss your horses case.

At the very least she may be able to point you in the direction of vets in your area that have referred horses.


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## Michen (24 February 2015)

criso said:



			This

It won't be the first time though many vets have agreed once they've spoken to her.  You do have to call your vet and tell them you have given your permission to discuss your horses case.

At the very least she may be able to point you in the direction of vets in your area that have referred horses.
		
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******... just found out that a) Rockley is more expensive than I thought and there is no way I'd be able to afford it myself and b) Petplan don't cover Rockley.... urgh


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## Goldenstar (24 February 2015)

TBH I would just change to vet who will.
I would never tolerate working with a vet who thought it was their job to oppose my wishes in such a way.
When I want a horse referred somewhere my vets would just do it .
However I do think you could do the BF thing your self if you need to .

I would speak to Nic , and or find the trimmers working in your area they will know the most BF friendly vets .
Or let me know where you live and I will ask my trimmer who to speak to in your area.
Or Pop onto the Phoenix forum and ask for trimmers your area .
Just go round difficult people, it's your horse , your insurance and your wishes that count .

EDT Cross posted sorry .
Your horse is young you can get him BF yourself it will take lots of time and effort and perhaps some cost in the form of boots and decent supplements .


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## Michen (24 February 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			TBH I would just change to vet who will.
I would never tolerate working with a vet who thought it was their job to oppose my wishes in such a way.
When I want a horse referred somewhere my vets would just do it .
However I do think you could do the BF thing your self if you need to .

I would speak to Nic , and or find the trimmers working in your area they will know the most BF friendly vets .
Or let me know where you live and I will ask my trimmer who to speak to in your area.
Or Pop onto the Phoenix forum and ask for trimmers your area .
Just go round difficult people, it's your horse , your insurance and your wishes that count .
		
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I think that might be the way I have to go, apparently petplan don't cover Rockley and its more expensive than I thought. His shoes are being removed for the MRI anyway so great chance to bite the bullet.


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## paulineh (24 February 2015)

I have a mare that has Navicular and by the time I had found Rockley all the insurance money had gone. I have done the rehab myself. I first found a good BF trimmer and followed her advice about boots and how to do the transition. I changed her diet etc and started the walks first on the road and then up into our woods where we have different surfaces.

My mare is only used to do general hacking (To keep her mind active). Bit that bullet and go for it. There are plenty of people on here with a lot of experience that will be able to help you.

As for boots (Which I would always have around) I would go to Cannock Chase  http://www.cannockchaseequine.co.uk/  They were so helpful when I wanted to get my boots.


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## Goldenstar (24 February 2015)

Finding a good trimmer who will advise you and support you and teach you is important .
Also buy the feet first book ( I found mine on eBay ) it's quite old now ( ignore the seaweed bit we know now it's a bad idea to feed it ) bit it give you a good overview of what your trying to achieve .
Make sure hes got a good supporting bed in his stable so he can rest comfortably .
Then gradually every day get him moving in hand over different surfaces .
I did three very very short walks daily plus turn out and then built up gradually .
The walks where literally just round the garden and stable yard at first .
You will need boots and pads get advice you need the best ones for him .
You need to put aside eighteen months it might be less but get your brain round that .


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## Michen (24 February 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			Finding a good trimmer who will advise you and support you and teach you is important .
Also buy the feet first book ( I found mine on eBay ) it's quite old now ( ignore the seaweed bit we know now it's a bad idea to feed it ) bit it give you a good overview of what your trying to achieve .
Make sure hes got a good supporting bed in his stable so he can rest comfortably .
Then gradually every day get him moving in hand over different surfaces .
I did three very very short walks daily plus turn out and then built up gradually .
The walks where literally just round the garden and stable yard at first .
You will need boots and pads get advice you need the best ones for him .
You need to put aside eighteen months it might be less but get your brain round that .
		
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I'm assuming though that he will be ok to be ridden, booted, fairly quickly? Eeek- 18 months is a long time for a lawn mower!


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## Scarlett (24 February 2015)

Michen said:



			I'm assuming though that he will be ok to be ridden, booted, fairly quickly? Eeek- 18 months is a long time for a lawn mower!
		
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Maybe, maybe not. I had two who barely noticed their shoes off, one who was crippled as the farrier insisted in trimming him and took his feet to short and one, with soft tissue damage, who took probably 8 weeks to be comfortable. Movement is key, you will need, in the boots initially, to get him moving, he wont be a lawn mower just a horse that will need walked a lot, possibly in hand, initially. Hopefully you can sort out his gut issues as that will definitely affect his feet.

Have you found a trimmer who can help?


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## paddy555 (24 February 2015)

having read some of your earlier threads then it takes as long as it takes. Movement is the key and there will be a lot of walking in hand to start with. That is what horses do at Rockley. They walk themselves sound on suitable surfaces. OK they have a suitable diet and someone takes the worry out of looking after them but in the end it is the horses that cure themselves. They walk!!  You don't have to send a horse to Rockley to rehab. You can do it at home. If you cannot replicate the facilities, and I am sure you won't be able to, then you walk the horse in hand. 
Don't forget that if you send a horse to Rockley it does not come home in 12 weeks, cured and conditioned as a barefoot riding horse. All that has been done is to kick start the process with good facilities. You will be left to do the rest. You won't be able to just turn it out in the field and everything will be OK. It will need the correct diet and the correct exercise to continue what Rockley has begun. It will also need adherence to Rockley's trimming (or not trimming) instructions. 

So at some stage you will end up rehabing your barefoot horse be it from either newly deshod to 12 weeks in.

Barefoot horses are generally not good lawnmowers. I don't like mine mowing the field I prefer them, for the 6 months when the weather is drier, to be walking around on an electric fenced track taking some exercise. That also means walking their feet. As we are now coming into spring can you set up a track for your horse? 

Whereabouts are you geographically? I am sure someone on here or Phoenix can suggest a vet experienced in BF rehabbing and a farrier or trimmer who can work alongside the vet.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (24 February 2015)

I don't know why Petplan wont pay for rehab when there is a vet referral. In my opinion its not their prerogative to make veterinary decisions on any horse unless they consider there is a fraud being committed. They target vet practices for pets, and probably horses., no doubt they have it in the smallprint.

You will have to accept it and make a plan, its going to involve work, your work and your commitment.

Ideally you want place where the grass is old pasture, and where have plenty of turnout on dry ground, where you can walk in hand on tarmac and hack on tarmac.
I would stable part of the day [large stable, deep bed at first. This allows you to feed a high fibre lo sugar forage, you may be able to buy some good to poor meadow fescue/timothy hay, not dusty or  mouldy.  Even soaking for an hour will remove sugars, you will see the colour of the water.

Rather than relying on trimming to sort the feet, you need to rely on your rehabilitation.
This is emphasised time and time again on Rockley site.

The whole feet business is complex, you need to educate yourself, the info is all available. 
Follow the horses as they come in to Rockley, see how they progress, watch the videos, look at your horse and at the other horses as they walk out. Heel first landing, not toe first. Develop  good frog and heels, a resiliant digital cushion, sole thickness and concavity all things you need to work on.

Q.  how hard is it to walk out for 30 mins twice a day ............... 
A.  it's not hard at all.

Diet: sugars are out, processed foods are out, fibre is in, minerals are in.
Some salt and some micronised linseed.


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## Scarlett (24 February 2015)

Michen... I'm not all that far from you. If you want to come meet my 3 barefoot TB's and see how we cope on a 'traditional' yard you would be more than welcome.


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## Boulty (24 February 2015)

Talk very very quickly and do not allow your vet to get a word in until you have said all you wish to say. Alternatively if you can't talk that fast then tell them you want a reasonable conversation and you understand their scepticism and very carefully lay out all the reasons you want to do this and why you want it to be done now (and yes, "I want money from the insurance IS a valid reason!),  If your vet really won't support you in this then you could ask around to find a vet in the area who will give a second opinion that would be more open to such things. Petplan have paid in the past for such things but you may need to involve the ombudsman as I know others have had to.   Can't give you much other advice as my vet didn't take much convincing and totally understood my reasons. She did warn me not to pin all my hopes on it working (yeah didn't really follow that advice exactly lol) but that she saw no harm at all in trying and that she'd sign whatever she needed to sign to convince the insurance that it was being used as a treatment.  I was pleasantly surprised not to be certified as insane for proposing the idea


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## Boulty (24 February 2015)

Just seen latest reply... I'd be tempted to speak to someone at Petplan before you write the idea off entirely as unless they've had a total policy change I believe that they have been persuaded to pay in the past... it can just take a lot of fighting to get them to do so.  Interesting really as they're really really good for small animal insurance and I'd never have a cat or dog insured with anyone else  (Horse is with NFU as I believe the good service I have always always received from them justifies the price)


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## Exploding Chestnuts (24 February 2015)

I am sure Nic has an information sheet that she sends out to vets, but either way, if you decide to challenge Petplan now you have this new information, for the sake of the horse you should still be gearing up for the barefoot re hab.
I am sure you will continue to get plenty of support from people on here.


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## Michen (25 February 2015)

Sorry I've been a bit quiet all, feeling pretty crappy about him going in to the vets tomorrow and just have a feeling they are going to find a hell of a lot. Also he's suddenly gone lamer again the last 24 hours, not sure why as he did come sound (except for on a hard small circle) in the shoes. Hot feet, sad pony, urgh. Wondering if possibly some thrush has taken hold under the gel pads. 

Anyway yes, providing he does come home, I'm pretty sure those shoes won't be going back on after the MRI. It will be, quite frankly terrifying, taking a massive step away from what vet and farrier think I should do. I also feel bad as my farrier has been a total angel since he took Torres on, literally could not have been more interested and helpful and he's so full of ideas if x shoes don't work etc etc. 

I will try with petplan but I posted on the barefoot facebook group and the answer was pretty much no, no one has managed to get them to pay out. Also to be honest, if I can do it myself (which everyone on here seems to think I can!) I'd rather he stayed with me. He's so settled and happy here and I don't like the thought of carting him 4 hours to Devon when he's not even been here long.


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## aussierider (25 February 2015)

Its a shame that you can't do it on insurance, as far as the vet goes I would just tell them that you want a referral, your the client so you should get one if you want it. But, if Rockley isn't an option I totally agree that you can do it yourself. My horse had a catastrophic injury that resulted in a fractured pedal bone, and some months later once the bone had healed and her lameness had not improved she had an MRI and she had also torn a collateral ligament quite badly. 

At this time she had been 3/5 lame for 6 months with pretty much no improvement dispute being on box rest. At the time there was only one MRI in Australia and we had traveled some distance to see a vet who is one of the best lameness vets in the country. He said she was basically screwed and had very little chance of improving. 

I decided to pul shoes and go barefoot, I found one trimmer that said her feet didn't look good and were out of balance (all the other farriers were saying her feet looked great) so I started using him and walking her. She has gradually improved since going barefoot and is going really well now.


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## Michen (25 February 2015)

Boulty said:



			Just seen latest reply... I'd be tempted to speak to someone at Petplan before you write the idea off entirely as unless they've had a total policy change I believe that they have been persuaded to pay in the past... it can just take a lot of fighting to get them to do so.  Interesting really as they're really really good for small animal insurance and I'd never have a cat or dog insured with anyone else  (Horse is with NFU as I believe the good service I have always always received from them justifies the price)
		
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To be honest I can't fault them so far, they paid out for his ulcers and feet the very afternoon they got the claim. Plus they paid out for an infection from an over reach boot rub that he got in the first week of being insured, which they really really didn't have to and could have easily said it was illness not injury as technically incurred by me!


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## Michen (25 February 2015)

Scarlett said:



			Michen... I'm not all that far from you. If you want to come meet my 3 barefoot TB's and see how we cope on a 'traditional' yard you would be more than welcome.
		
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Oooh yes I might just do that, I'm in Highclere how far from there are you?


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## Michen (25 February 2015)

Scarlett said:



			Maybe, maybe not. I had two who barely noticed their shoes off, one who was crippled as the farrier insisted in trimming him and took his feet to short and one, with soft tissue damage, who took probably 8 weeks to be comfortable. Movement is key, you will need, in the boots initially, to get him moving, he wont be a lawn mower just a horse that will need walked a lot, possibly in hand, initially. Hopefully you can sort out his gut issues as that will definitely affect his feet.

Have you found a trimmer who can help?
		
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Yep one that Andalucian trained with funnily enough. Though depending on my farriers reaction, I am considering keeping him involved to begin with. Gut issues seem to be fairly under control, judging by the fact he's now almost a porker!!


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## criso (25 February 2015)

Again why get in touch with Rockley and ask about the insurance companies. Several people went to the Ombudsman with different companies (inc NFU who lost but I think were going to challenge the ruling).  They will know who they have had payments from and makes more sense than random people on a forum.  Having said that I have a feeling that petplan didn't pay out. 

It does annoy me a bit that insurance companies will pay for the type of rehab livery that is just glorified full livery for people who don't have facilities for box resting but quibble at Rockley, it feels like they are making a point.

The MRI will probably show all sorts of damage to various soft structures in the foot which would have a poor prognosis.  However keep in the back of your mind there are lots of horses that have been through Rockley with damage to DDFT, collateral ligaments, DSIL and navicular bursa who are back in full work.


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## Scarlett (25 February 2015)

Michen said:



			Oooh yes I might just do that, I'm in Highclere how far from there are you?
		
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Horses are in Crondall so about 30 min, maybe a little more?


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## HeresHoping (25 February 2015)

http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.co.uk/2015/02/the-rockley-scholarship-2015.html

Thought you might be interested... apologies if has been posted already.


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## ester (25 February 2015)

So Frank was with petplan, they said they would have covered barefoot rehab as part of treatment but this was while they were insisting that he would have to be seen regularly by a farrier to be insured :rolleyes3: I wasn't sure how they would know .

Fwiw we never actually managed to arrange it but my farrier was quite interested in what the trimmer was doing so was going to try come while she was here at some point as trimmer was happy with that.


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## paulineh (25 February 2015)

Michen  I come from just outside reading so not that far from you. If you need any help just shout. I have rehabbed my mare into BF myself.


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## Goldenstar (25 February 2015)

Michen said:



			I'm assuming though that he will be ok to be ridden, booted, fairly quickly? Eeek- 18 months is a long time for a lawn mower!
		
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He won't be being a lawn mower .
You will be working with him daily leading him in hand , long reining him perhaps leading from another horse if that is possible .
Mine was training in the school within three months, walking short hacks on the road  at four months .
At eighteen months he was jumping at clinics hacking out happily doing intensive flat work training .
Your horses feet are sick there's no easy quick cure .

Mine could not walk out the stable when we started .


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## criso (25 February 2015)

And what you don't to do is use boots to work him more than he is ready to.  If the MRI shows tendon and ligament damage in the foot then these need gentle work not anything that will strain them further.  

Frankie was at Rockley about 4 1/2 months. He had horrific 'tb' feet so needed a bit longer than some.  It was about a month before I visited there (work commitments) and rode him, up to then he had been exercised led from another horse.   

When I got him back he was still a work in progress but I could hack him out a reasonable amount and as long as I let him take his time over stony paths could go anywhere.  I schooled once or twice a week and after a couple of months introduced a little jumping.  He was doing his first competitions (dressage and jumping) probably just over 12 months after the shoes came off.  However I consider the months at Rockley a fast track.  You can do it at home but I think without that perfect environment for turnout,  it takes longer.

A few years  later he developed a shoulder problem so had to be retired but never had a problem with his feet again.


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## Michen (25 February 2015)

criso said:



			And what you don't to do is use boots to work him more than he is ready to.  If the MRI shows tendon and ligament damage in the foot then these need gentle work not anything that will strain them further.  

Frankie was at Rockley about 4 1/2 months. He had horrific 'tb' feet so needed a bit longer than some.  It was about a month before I visited there (work commitments) and rode him, up to then he had been exercised led from another horse.   

When I got him back he was still a work in progress but I could hack him out a reasonable amount and as long as I let him take his time over stony paths could go anywhere.  I schooled once or twice a week and after a couple of months introduced a little jumping.  He was doing his first competitions (dressage and jumping) probably just over 12 months after the shoes came off.  However I consider the months at Rockley a fast track.  You can do it at home but I think without that perfect environment for turnout,  it takes longer.

A few years  later he developed a shoulder problem so had to be retired but never had a problem with his feet again.
		
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This is what I'm so confused about. I won't know what to think if the vet says damage x y z etc, I can't understand how this sort of damage doesn't need to be rested? Lots to learn!


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## Goldenstar (25 February 2015)

This is the hard bit .i agree it's very difficult .
I had a horse with a ligament tear in the foot .
We box rested him for twelve weeks he came sound and we started again from there that was BBF  ( before bare foot )


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## ester (25 February 2015)

I think walking can help provide a more functional repair rather than the formation of hard scar tissue. We were advised to walk out mare in hand from day one of box rest for a suspensory ligament injury for instance. Plenty of athletes would keep going within reason.


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## criso (25 February 2015)

I did the whole box rest thing with Frank but it didn't help in the slightest and as soon as he was brought back into the smallest bit of work he would go lame again.  I went through 18 months of this before I heard about Rockley.  

Even for non foot related tendon and ligament injuries, once you are past the initial acute stage, many vets will advocate gentle walking to help the fibres heal in the correct alignment.  For feet it has the added benefit that it will strengthen the foot and hopefully get the horse landing correctly.

When deciding who will help you, farrier or trimmer, then you need to find someone who has experience of rehabbing these injuries barefoot.  Then hopefully they can support and advise you at each step.


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## Michen (25 February 2015)

criso said:



			I did the whole box rest thing with Frank but it didn't help in the slightest and as soon as he was brought back into the smallest bit of work he would go lame again.  I went through 18 months of this before I heard about Rockley.  

Even for non foot related tendon and ligament injuries, once you are past the initial acute stage, many vets will advocate gentle walking to help the fibres heal in the correct alignment.  For feet it has the added benefit that it will strengthen the foot and hopefully get the horse landing correctly.

When deciding who will help you, farrier or trimmer, then you need to find someone who has experience of rehabbing these injuries barefoot.  Then hopefully they can support and advise you at each step.
		
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Was he barefoot when he was lame for 18 months??
Eek!


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## criso (25 February 2015)

Michen said:



			Was he barefoot when he was lame for 18 months??
Eek!
		
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No shod by one of the best remedial farriers around and following vets advice to the letter.

If you read the stories on the blog, this story is very typical of many of the horses that go there.


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## Michen (25 February 2015)

criso said:



			No shod by one of the best remedial farriers around and following vets advice to the letter.

If you read the stories on the blog, this story is very typical of many of the horses that go there.
		
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Okay, good to know. My farrier is so open to the idea he's fab.


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## criso (26 February 2015)

Michen said:



			Okay, good to know. My farrier is so open to the idea he's fab.
		
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He might be but unless he has experience of rehabbing horses with these of injuries barefoot, he may not be the best person to help you.  

When Frankie came back from Rockley, I went through 3 farriers who overtrimmed leaving him sore before I found my current trimmer.


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## Scarlett (26 February 2015)

Michen said:



			Okay, good to know. My farrier is so open to the idea he's fab.
		
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Open to the idea is great, don't get me wrong, but farriers don't cover working barefoot feet or rehab in their training, nor any of the diet stuff. I'm not farrier bashing at all but to rehab a horse you need an experienced trimmer, someone who has specific training and knowledge in that area IMO. You'll find that most of the owners on here with rehab cases will have had to swap from farrier to trimmer, I know I certainly did.


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## Michen (26 February 2015)

criso said:



			No shod by one of the best remedial farriers around and following vets advice to the letter.

If you read the stories on the blog, this story is very typical of many of the horses that go there.
		
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Scarlett said:



			Open to the idea is great, don't get me wrong, but farriers don't cover working barefoot feet or rehab in their training, nor any of the diet stuff. I'm not farrier bashing at all but to rehab a horse you need an experienced trimmer, someone who has specific training and knowledge in that area IMO. You'll find that most of the owners on here with rehab cases will have had to swap from farrier to trimmer, I know I certainly did.
		
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I completely get this and it may well be that I get an EP in alongside. However a very knowledgable EP on here advised me to not have his feet trimmed for six weeks anyway. If my farrier is open to learning I'm certainly not going to stop him, and I do still value his opinion as he has 20 years of experience under his belt and trims plenty of horses without shoes. That's not so say I won't be taking advice everywhere I can get it, I just won't be booted him off the case on the basis that he has never rehabbed a barefoot horse before. Everyone has to start somewhere and if I feel like I need the help of someone else I'll be picking up the phone.


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## ester (26 February 2015)

I'm not sure I'd want him learning on my horse though given that he does have other options as a farrier for training. 

Mine admitted he hadn't done it before and was perfectly happy that I went elsewhere. Mostly I wanted the extra support that wouldn't just suggest shoes when the horse went sore/could advise on boots (we still have our originals 4 years on) and diet input. Ditto it is best not to trim for a bit once shoes are off anyway.


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## paddy555 (26 February 2015)

ester said:



			I'm not sure I'd want him learning on my horse though given that he does have other options as a farrier for training. 

Mine admitted he hadn't done it before and was perfectly happy that I went elsewhere. Mostly I wanted the extra support that wouldn't just suggest shoes when the horse went sore/could advise on boots (we still have our originals 4 years on) and diet input. Ditto it is best not to trim for a bit once shoes are off anyway.
		
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I agree. If I was in this position I would be looking at references from farriers or trimmers as to how many similar horses they had rehabbed barefoot successfully. You are looking for experience. There will probably be little trimming. You need someone to help you get the feet working. 

It takes a very long time for some horses as they have spent so much time being box rested, lame, undergoing tests etc until the insurance money runs out. It is only at that stage that people have to stop and consider the alternatives. Sadly, for many, getting the horse barefoot at the beginning to start the rehab isn't the first  option.


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## Michen (26 February 2015)

paddy555 said:



			I agree. If I was in this position I would be looking at references from farriers or trimmers as to how many similar horses they had rehabbed barefoot successfully. You are looking for experience. There will probably be little trimming. You need someone to help you get the feet working. 

It takes a very long time for some horses as they have spent so much time being box rested, lame, undergoing tests etc until the insurance money runs out. It is only at that stage that people have to stop and consider the alternatives. Sadly, for many, getting the horse barefoot at the beginning to start the rehab isn't the first  option.
		
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Well mine has been in remedial shoes for three weeks and I'm already likely taking the barefoot route  we shall see what the MRI reveals tomorrow, he's at the vets now.


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## _GG_ (26 February 2015)

Michen...

Get onto this link below. Nic is taking applications for a 2015 scholarship so could be a really good chance for you provided you can cover the keep costs.

You will need a vet on side but it could be a really good way to try and move forward.


http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.co.uk/2015/02/the-rockley-scholarship-2015.html


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## HeresHoping (26 February 2015)

_GG_ said:



			Michen...

Get onto this link below. Nic is taking applications for a 2015 scholarship so could be a really good chance for you provided you can cover the keep costs.

You will need a vet on side but it could be a really good way to try and move forward.


http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.co.uk/2015/02/the-rockley-scholarship-2015.html

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That was the link I put in, but I didn't explain it very well, did I?


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## _GG_ (26 February 2015)

HeresHoping said:



			That was the link I put in, but I didn't explain it very well, did I?
		
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Oooh, silly me, I didn't bother to check if anyone else had linked it. X


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## HeresHoping (26 February 2015)

_GG_ said:



			Oooh, silly me, I didn't bother to check if anyone else had linked it. X
		
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Och, no.  Not silly.  I was silly.  I just stuck the link in with no explanation. So I thank you for clarifying things and let's hope that the OP has an opportunity to apply.


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## Michen (26 February 2015)

Have seen it and DEFINITELY will be applying, although it doesn't start until 1st June and I will likely be barefooting him from this week if he comes back from the vet...


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## ITPersonnage (26 February 2015)

OP I'm not sure you would get that much opposition from your vet - after all it costs them nothing to refer you. Mine was sceptical but agreed when I asked. It's not like he has to fund it like, say the NHS. Or it may be that my vet couldn't actually care less and was just happy I would stop bugging him )) for a while. Whatever, best of luck with it.


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## Michen (26 February 2015)

ITPersonnage said:



			OP I'm not sure you would get that much opposition from your vet - after all it costs them nothing to refer you. Mine was sceptical but agreed when I asked. It's not like he has to fund it like, say the NHS. Or it may be that my vet couldn't actually care less and was just happy I would stop bugging him )) for a while. Whatever, best of luck with it.
		
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Hey all. So after 12 nerve blocks it would appear he is lame in all four feet. We took the shoes off this afternoon ready for MRI tomorrow as we thought maybe he had some thrush under there causing discomfort. No thrush but he can barely stand on a deep shavings bed, he was literally hobbling around totally crippled

Feeling pretty blue. Even if the MRI doesn't show anything too tragic, how on earth could I even begin to rehab this horse barefoot when he's like that on shavings? Surely it would be completely impossible. Trying really hard to keep positive but the vet said I need to fully prepare myself for the likelihood of putting him down tomorrow.


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## PorkChop (26 February 2015)

Sending you a hug - don't give up hope just yet - I am sure you will do what is best for him - fingers crossed that the MRI results are positive


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## Leo Walker (26 February 2015)

Michen said:



			Hey all. So after 12 nerve blocks it would appear he is lame in all four feet. We took the shoes off this afternoon ready for MRI tomorrow as we thought maybe he had some thrush under there causing discomfort. No thrush but he can barely stand on a deep shavings bed, he was literally hobbling around totally crippled

Feeling pretty blue. Even if the MRI doesn't show anything too tragic, how on earth could I even begin to rehab this horse barefoot when he's like that on shavings? Surely it would be completely impossible. Trying really hard to keep positive but the vet said I need to fully prepare myself for the likelihood of putting him down tomorrow.
		
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Bute, boots and specially made pads, 24/7 if needs be. And get him on the best spec mineral balancer you can find. Equivita/forageplus/progressive earth all do good ones.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (26 February 2015)

This is bad news, maybe he will be better tomorrow, is he on bute for a few days?


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## Michen (26 February 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			This is bad news, maybe he will be better tomorrow, is he on bute for a few days?
		
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God yeh he's being buted overnight. Absolutely hate leaving him there, all I want to do is bring him home and try to get him right.


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## Meowy Catkin (26 February 2015)

I'm so very sorry to read this.  

I agree with FCob's suggestion of bute, boots and pads. I really hope that you are able to get him comfortable, poor chap.


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## criso (26 February 2015)

Thats  not completely surprising.   I had to take Frankie's shoes off before he was taken for the MRI, as the farrier came weekly on a monday and the MRI was towards the end of the week he was without shoes a few days.    I bought hoof boots for him and he wore those.  By the time it came to the MRI he was already coping better.  At that point I hadn't heard of Rockley so I followed vet's advice of box rest and remedial farriery so the shoes went back on a week later.


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## Michen (26 February 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			This is bad news, maybe he will be better tomorrow, is he on bute for a few days?
		
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Faracat said:



			I'm so very sorry to read this.  

I agree with FCob's suggestion of bute, boots and pads. I really hope that you are able to get him comfortable, poor chap.
		
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It is beyond heartbreaking. And it makes me so so cross. Poor ****** was still running in races at the beginning of November. The MRI will reveal more... But I'm not optimistic. However, I will not be making any decisions (unless it's very obvious he will never come sound) until I've spoken to rockley.


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## FfionWinnie (26 February 2015)

If you buy boots you can pad out he will be as if not more comfortable than he is in shoes. 

You can sell these boots on if you no longer need them. 

From what I've learned on here that horse would be coming home and I'd be giving it a shot at low cost homemade rehab whatever the vet says tomorrow. 

I'd follow the Rockley process as closely as possible (note they don't trim them...!) and see if he improves. If not you won't be wondering if there was something else you could have tried. There's a poster on this forum who lost two horses to navicular and regrets not knowing then what she knows now about barefoot rehab everyday, from what she told me.


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## Meowy Catkin (26 February 2015)

I'm not surprised that your heart is breaking over this. I really hope that he improves and that the MRI's give hope for a recovery.


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## Leo Walker (26 February 2015)

My heart broke over my boy, to the point where my work was suffering as I was soo bloody stressed  about it! Hes out on loan now and sound over all surfaces boot free  I keep saying it, and dont know if you have seen, but diet was key for mine. I have another horse, rock crunching sound even when suffering border line neglect, fat as a pig and full of thrush. Not on my watch when he was on loan, but he was still rock crunching! But the big cob CANNOT cope without supplements. He really, really cant! I know a lot of people feed a lot of stuff for seemingly no reason, but I cannot empasise enough how important diet is!

Cleantrax his feet, it costs £15 and will be worth it! Change his diet, no alfaalfa, a GOOD mineral balancer with high copper and zinc and NO iron, and get him pads made for him, not generic ones. And then get those boots and pads on and walk him. As many miles as you can manage! he can probably manage the boots and pads 24/7 at least for a little while, and if not, put them on for turnout and get him in during the day in a deep bed. 

He can be fixed, honestly!


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## Leo Walker (26 February 2015)

Mine ended up with an inpatient stay at horsepital, cost over a grand for 3 days! The only reason it didnt cost more is they sent him home as he had sweetitch and within 48 hours of being there he was ripping himself to shreds, and I didnt want to go down the route of MRIs etc. For me there was no point. I knew he was lame in all 4 feet, so an MRI wouldnt have done anything other than give me concrete things to cry about!


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## Michen (26 February 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			This is bad news, maybe he will be better tomorrow, is he on bute for a few days?
		
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FrankieCob said:



			My heart broke over my boy, to the point where my work was suffering as I was soo bloody stressed  about it! Hes out on loan now and sound over all surfaces boot free  I keep saying it, and dont know if you have seen, but diet was key for mine. I have another horse, rock crunching sound even when suffering border line neglect, fat as a pig and full of thrush. Not on my watch when he was on loan, but he was still rock crunching! But the big cob CANNOT cope without supplements. He really, really cant! I know a lot of people feed a lot of stuff for seemingly no reason, but I cannot empasise enough how important diet is!

Cleantrax his feet, it costs £15 and will be worth it! Change his diet, no alfaalfa, a GOOD mineral balancer with high copper and zinc and NO iron, and get him pads made for him, not generic ones. And then get those boots and pads on and walk him. As many miles as you can manage! he can probably manage the boots and pads 24/7 at least for a little while, and if not, put them on for turnout and get him in during the day in a deep bed. 

He can be fixed, honestly!
		
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This gives me hope, but surely it depends on the extent of the soft tissue damage? I don't know. It's ridiculous because when I bought him I was not going to insure him and I said to everyone, if he goes lame he will be put down. I'm not getting into lameness diagnostics etc for a 200 pound horse. And here I am, sobbing my heart out and spending about 6 hours a day reading whatever I can that may help. Sad eh!


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## criso (26 February 2015)

Michen said:



			This gives me hope, but surely it depends on the extent of the soft tissue damage?
		
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I keep saying go back and read the stories at Rockley.  If you do you'll see there is no soft tissue that some horse there hasn't had.  You can do a search on the different types of injury.

Mine had damage to the DSIL, DDFT. Collateral ligaments and navicular bursa in both feet.  I don't think there were many soft structures that weren't affected.

I would be expecting soft tissue and that wouldn't be my major concern.   What would worry me is some sort of fracture - very unlikely in all 4 feet or a navicular cyst which don't seem to respond as well.


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## Leo Walker (26 February 2015)

Bailey was soo lame he had to lay down for a few hours everyday. The whole yard laughed and joked about him needing a nap. They also laughed about him taking 10mins to walk down the drive, and it was just accepted he couldnt be ridden in the school   He couldnt bear to stand on his feet all day, hence why he came in and laid down, he couldnt walk down the drive as there was the odd gritty bit, and he couldnt cope with the school as it was deep going 

I bought him last June, took the shoes off 3 weeks later when I saw a friend ride him and realised he was crippled  Its only been the last month hes been ridden out without boots, but I have an amazing set of photos the day after the shoes were taken off and he was turned out! He went mental! and if a horse could grin he was! I have no doubt he was buggered internally, but once the shoes were off I HAD to carry on, so we did and now hes bouncing about all over, totally sound  Going by how long it took to get him even 25% right, and MRI would have shown bad things! He actually had a lameness work up a few months before I bought him, and nothing conclusive was found when he was trotted up etc. Clearly as he was lame in all 4 feet  

Bailey is a lovely boy and funnily enough, doesnt lay down for a few hours each day, funny that!


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## Michen (26 February 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			This is bad news, maybe he will be better tomorrow, is he on bute for a few days?
		
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criso said:



			I keep saying go back and read the stories at Rockley.  If you do you'll see there is no soft tissue that some horse there hasn't had.  You can do a search on the different types of injury.

Mine had damage to the DSIL, DDFT. Collateral ligaments and navicular bursa in both feet.  I don't think there were many soft structures that weren't affected.

I would be expecting soft tissue and that wouldn't be my major concern.   What would worry me is some sort of fracture - very unlikely in all 4 feet or a navicular cyst which don't seem to respond as well.
		
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I think what my vet is concerned about is tears/holes which I can't seem to find anything about on rockley blog... Having said that my eyes are shot and I'm skim reading!!


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## criso (26 February 2015)

Fairly sure Storm had a tear to the DDFT and was written off by the vets.

However my vet did say to me a long time ago that  sometimes the minor injuries never come right and severe tears do.


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## criso (26 February 2015)

Just to add 


 The last study I saw, mild collateral ligament damage has the poorest outcome statistically.  That's with traditional treatment.


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## Michen (26 February 2015)

criso said:



			Just to add 


 The last study I saw, mild collateral ligament damage has the poorest outcome statistically.  That's with traditional treatment.
		
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Okay. I am feeling slightly calmer now  I think I will speak to Nic before i make any decisions regarding putting him down&#8230; even if he comes home for a few days first.


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## Boulty (26 February 2015)

Gonna play devils advocate here and say that my pony showed next to no soft tissue abnormalities on MRI despite being bilaterally lame in front (resolved with palmar digital nerve block) and horrendously sore when shoes were removed to take said MRI (there were little irregularities that the person interpreting them questioned the significance of but that's it.  I happen to think these little things  probably WERE significant, just that the evidence doesn't exist yet to support that theory but in the eyes of the vet at the time the MRI was pretty much fine).  The only thing that showed up on an x-ray was sidebone. (at least the only thing that the vets eye was drawn to but I'd wager someone who specialises in this sort of thing could have seen clues about which structures were in need of improvement... that probably goes for the MRI too) That's it as far as the fancy referral vets were concerned. 

To look at his feet from the outside they were horrid and I kick myself for not doing something about it sooner.  Toes waaaaay too long (front feet really shouldn't be that shape...) , collapsed at the back, very flat with soles so thin you could get them to flex with moderate thumb pressure... I didn't see all of this until I got my eyes opened to it though.

Point is diet and management were my main enemies and the main things that needed to change to bring my horse sound. They are still the main things that stand in our way as I can't get either totally 100% spot on in the situation I'm in at the moment. I'm hoping to change that at some point in the next few years but don't fancy going from the frying pan into the fire! I underestimated how important those things were before I started on this path as I think a lot of people do and unfortunately my pony is one of the sensitive ones (this spills over into riding too) if things aren't 100% to his liking I soon know about it


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## ALO (27 February 2015)

Just caught up on this and wanted to say do t give up hope. Mine had a ddft tear in his left fore foot near to the insertion of pedal bone in 2012. I did the bare rehab myself and he's now back to full health, sound and living life. It wasn't easy but we got there in the end. Good luck for today.


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