# ID X TB or TB x ID??



## eventer28 (27 January 2010)

I have a lovely looking 10yo, 16hh, dapple grey TB mare by Defacto, she has great conformation with 8" of bone with good feet. She had a pretty appauling career on the racecourse both on the flat and over hurdles but she retired sound as an 8yo. She is very, very chilled and super easy to handle in her stable but she is HOT to ride.. I will put her in foal this year and would really like to use an RID stallion. The one I particularly like is Barracaberry Orbit. My mare is a chunky TB but is only 16hh and need some height on her. What is the difference between using an ID stallion on a TB mare compared to a using a TB on an ID mare??


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## Springs (27 January 2010)

Can you post a picture of your mare up?

One of the key points is to consider is what do you want to improve from your mare in the breeding. you have aleady mentioned two - temprement and add height do you have any others? also what are you aiming for, hunter, eventer etc?


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## eventer28 (27 January 2010)

Well.. She has great conformation, bone and feet, tough and sound mare. I show hunters so I guess id like to breed a horse that would show; a lightweight hunter, riding horse or small hunter would be great. She has a straight floaty action. Basically she is a very well put together mare.. Her downside is her HOT temp to ride (possibly due to her racing career), I really dont want to use a TB on her..


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## JanetGeorge (27 January 2010)

I've used my RID boy on two TB mares of my own.  One was a very hot little mare, and I initially bred to a coloured sport horse.  The resulting colt was a total and utter SOD!  Her next 3, all by Raj, were TOTALLY different - much more laidback and easy in every way.  The other TB mare was an ex-pointer who was apparently quite a live wire in her racing days - I got her after owner had already bred a colt from her by Raj - but sold it as he thought it was going to be FAR too laidback for his 14 year old daughter who LIKES hot horses!  Her first foal for me was a filly, which we backed and sold as a 3 year old - she's chilled, without being boring - and her owner (and amateur rider who can usually only ride her at week-ends) thinks she's fantastic.  The second we're about to start backing - just the same type!

SO, I'd highly recommend putting an RID on your mare - and Barracaberry Orbit would be a good choice to give you a lightweight hunter or small hunter.  He's got a superb temperament - he was at the Breed Show Stallion Parade and was a perfect gentleman.  His sire, O'Sullivan, is a full brother to the late, great Grey Macha - and I've had a lot to do with stock by both stallions - all had very good temperaments too.

There really isn't much difference whether sire or dam is the ID/TB.  You can get some variations in type (e.g. whether they throw MORE to the TB than the ID) with either cross.  With a LITTLE TB mare and a BIG RID, I'd be worried about him squashing her (seriously!) but your mare's not tiny and I THINK they usually use AI with Orbit anyway - he's 19 now!


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## Maesfen (27 January 2010)

If you don't mind a full ID, he's just not graded as a full RID (but stock still eligible for part bred papers) then you could look at Maurice Miner (by Colman) who stands at Embla, near Stafford.  He's thrown some lovely stock, usually good performers too including one I bred from a TB mare that is out hunting most of the season and then doing Working Hunter in summer - with some success too with County Show placings and a Championship from very few outings; he also did an Intro and was third on just his dressage so lots of strings to his bow and he's only six this time!

B Orbit is lovely and has some lovely stock too, Pink Weasel on here has a beautiful two year old by him.

BTW, they always say put quality on top but I've known some lovely stock from TB mares by IDs and vice versa; I think as long as both sides are of good quality there isn't a deal of difference but stand to be corrected!


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## eventer28 (27 January 2010)

Thankyou! Great info!!


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## JanetGeorge (28 January 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
If you don't mind a full ID, he's just not graded as a full RID (but stock still eligible for part bred papers) then you could look at Maurice Miner (by Colman) who stands at Embla, near Stafford.  

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem with using a Grade 3 stallion (Grade 3 means they either haven't been presented OR have been presented and failed both conformation and vetting) is that progeny can ONLY be registered as Grade 3 sport horse (or Grade 3 ID) which excludes them from showing in any of the IDHS classes.  Doesn't matter if you're breeding a pleasure horse or a hunter (and Maurice Minor is a NICE stallion) - but if you're breeding to show, it does close up a lot of opportunities.  I personally wouldn't use a Grade 2 or Grade 3 stallion (and I have 2 that are currently Grade 2 - they'll remain unused unless/until they grade RID), even on a couple of unpapered sport horse mares I breed from.


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## jomiln (28 January 2010)

We stand a son of B Orbit out of near full TB mare - Thornwick Challenger - his temperament is fab he is an Advanced Dressage Horse now but also has a fab jump


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## siennamum (28 January 2010)

TB Mare (by Be Friendly)






Supposedly an unreg Irish Draft by Legaun Prince:






Resulted in this:






She is only 15.2, as the mare was ill when carrying her, but her full sisters are all well over 16.2 &amp; very much all WH types, very substantial and deep, with fantastic limbs.
She has no great movement and cause she's a shortarse is a bit lacking in quality, but has a fab temperament. Think it was such a successful pair because the mare was big (16.2) and substantial.
(apologies for the gratuitous posting of pics of Sienna)


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## Simsar (28 January 2010)

Its all to do with weight like Springs said if you want a hunter you breed from a heavy mare or if you want an eventer you breed from a TB mare thats the general rule of thumb IMO.  I use ID stallions on TB mare personally, I don't care if they are graded or not SHB (GB) will put them onto the basic ID register for showing.  I have bred some lovely and successful middleweight hunters from TB mares.  I'm sure I wil get shot down in flames but this is my op and yes it probably does depend on the horse etc, but as I say this is what I believe.


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## Maesfen (28 January 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
 I don't care if they are graded or not SHB (GB) will put them onto the basic ID register for showing.  I have bred some lovely and successful middleweight hunters from TB mares.  I'm sure I wil get shot down in flames but this is my op and yes it probably does depend on the horse etc, but as I say this is what I believe. 

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW, I agree with you.  Most ID x TB will be shown in hunter classes so it matters not whether they are from graded stock or not as long as what is used is of the best quality to compliment each other.  The only classes denied you if ungraded stock is the IDHS ones but there are plenty of other classes.

The only time I would insist on a graded stallion is if I had a pure RID mare when I feel it is imperative that you use a pure RID stallion to suit; it would be a crime not to!  Not against her going to a TB, but if it's like for like, then it must be graded for me.


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## Simsar (28 January 2010)

QUOTE: The only time I would insist on a graded stallion is if I had a pure RID mare when I feel it is imperative that you use a pure RID stallion to suit; it would be a crime not to! Not against her going to a TB, but if it's like for like, then it must be graded for me.

Simon will agree with that, he is the stickler for Registered purebred rare line horses.  He has RID/AID mares to breed from this year and he will only use RID Stallions.

However I like the x's to add a little more quaility.


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## hilly (28 January 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
Well.. She has great conformation, bone and feet, tough and sound mare. I show hunters so I guess id like to breed a horse that would show; a lightweight hunter, riding horse or small hunter would be great. She has a straight floaty action. Basically she is a very well put together mare.. Her downside is her HOT temp to ride (possibly due to her racing career), I really dont want to use a TB on her.. 

[/ QUOTE ]

I 'm not sure if you'd get a LW hunter by using an ID on a TB; maybe more RH or SH or a MW hunter type.  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 Maybe a part-bred Draught with a TB sire and good temperament to off-set hers? If you were thinking of an ID sire, Bridgeford Ferryman is about as near-perfect a traditional ID as you can get.

Just to answer your other question - the majority of top show hunters are TB x ID. Vin Toulson, for one, was not as keen on the ID x TB cross and I'd have to agree. When it works you get the ID substance and limbs with the TB quality, topline and best of both movement but your chances are greater with the 'blood on bone' principle.


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## irishdraught (29 January 2010)

QR - Just to throw into the pot,
4* eventer Marsh Mayfly, until recently ridden by Ruth Edge was by RID stallion Glenbrae.


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## Simsar (29 January 2010)

Yes we have mare in foal to Ferryman this year, he is a stonking Stallion.


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## Simsar (29 January 2010)

QUOTE I 'm not sure if you'd get a LW hunter by using an ID on a TB; maybe more RH or SH or a MW hunter type.  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 Maybe a part-bred Draught with a TB sire and good temperament to off-set hers? If you were thinking of an ID sire, Bridgeford Ferryman is about as near-perfect a traditional ID as you can get.

Just to answer your other question - the majority of top show hunters are TB x ID. Vin Toulson, for one, was not as keen on the ID x TB cross and I'd have to agree. When it works you get the ID substance and limbs with the TB quality, topline and best of both movement but your chances are greater with the 'blood on bone' principle. 

Robert Oliver has just taken on a friends ID x TB as a LW hunter and he thinks she will be REALLY special, so it can be done this way round.


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## JanetGeorge (29 January 2010)

[ QUOTE ]


FWIW, I agree with you.  Most ID x TB will be shown in hunter classes so it matters not whether they are from graded stock or not as long as what is used is of the best quality to compliment each other.  The only classes denied you if ungraded stock is the IDHS ones but there are plenty of other classes.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'd disagree - for two reasons:

1.  An RID stallion - at grading - has to pass a very comprehensive full vetting - with x-rays asked for if there is anything to indicate a possible problem (in Ireland, they have to have a full set of x-rays before even going for inspection!)  That's a safeguard against possible hereditary problems such as wind - or OCD.

2.  The IDSH GB) stud book still allows grading up for mares not sure if that will continue past this year though.)  I have a lovely RID x TB mare who is Grade 1 Sport Horse.  One of her fillies - by my RID stallion - suffered a nasty paddock accident as a yearling which left her badly scarred, with a possible ?? over longer term soundness in one hind leg.  She graded AID and is now in foal to Avanti Amorous Archie.  If she has a filly, that filly will be eligible RID on inspection.  Ripple would NOT have graded AID unless she had 3 RID grand-parents.

It's another string to a foal's bow!  And I want to do everything possible to ensure (as sure as I can) that a foal is 'desirable' to buyers - so standing the best chance of a good home for life.


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## pinkcatkin (1 February 2010)

I used Barracaberry Orbit on my RID mare in 2008 by AI as she couldn't travel then.  The AI worked very well and Julie and Michael Cornthwaite are very efficient in that respect.  My mare took on second cycle (she had not had a foal for ten years) and I got a lovely filly who is now 20 months.  She is a huge character and I think she is going to be a fab all rounder.  Here are some pics:


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## hilly (11 February 2010)

[ QUOTE ]


Robert Oliver has just taken on a friends ID x TB as a LW hunter and he thinks she will be REALLY special, so it can be done this way round. 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

It can and I hope it will as have one mare in foal to Huntingfield Rebel this year, albeit a very quality, blood-type mare that floats over the ground.  *If* she produces a filly, win-win.

It CAN be done this way but still prefer 'blood on bone'.


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