# Talking about stallion grading



## JanetGeorge (11 September 2008)

This is one of my candidates for Irish Draught stallion grading next February - doing a bit of loose schooling!













































Two questions:

1.  Who said Irish Draughts can't MOVE??

2.  Will the indoor at Moreton Morrell hold him? 
	
	
		
		
	


	





For those who like statistics: he's 2 years old, about 15.3 now - will mature around 16.2.  He's by Lady's Tralee Raj ex Little Macha (aka Portia) who is by Grey Macha and is a full sister to the famous Irish stallion Agherlow.


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## PrincessDana (11 September 2008)

Woah he's a big beastie 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 and whoever said ID's can't move obviously haven't met him lol.

Sorry no help on the other question


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## JanetGeorge (11 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
Woah he's a big beastie 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

Nope - he's the tiddler! 
	
	
		
		
	


	





THIS is the big beastie!

Indigo Rambo - also aimed at stallion grading.  He's called Rambo because he was a HUGE foal, with legs like tree-trunks and he came out fighting!  
	
	
		
		
	


	



































He's 16.3 already - at 3!  He measured at 10" of bone as a 2 year old - and is by Raj out of Northwood Rose (who is only 15.2!)  She is by Gort Boy.

I don't think he has quite as good movement as Prince - but there is more of him to shift!


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## S_N (11 September 2008)

Not me!!  I never said they couldn't move lol!  

Rambo is lovely, but the bay is GORGEOUS!!!


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## JanetGeorge (11 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]

Rambo is lovely, but the bay is GORGEOUS!!! 

[/ QUOTE ]

He always was - and a real poser too.  EVERY time I went into the field with a camera, he was the only foal I managed to photograph!  He just LOVED the camera!













And this is Rambo at 2 days old - he was never going to be small!


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## CrazyMare (11 September 2008)

Wow, they are lovely but huge!!!!

Isn't this forum brilliant for showing such different types of horses? I'm sure theres everything from Natives thru Sports Ponies thru WB's to TB's bred by SOMEONE on here!


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## PrincessDana (11 September 2008)

I'm feeling sorry for Rambo's poor mum lol, look at the size of his legs  
	
	
		
		
	


	





Both stunning boys


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## volatis (11 September 2008)

Rambo is ridicuosly huge now. God job ID's have good temperaments. I'd hate to get on the wrong side of somehting that size. Both look pretty good to me, fingers crossed for the gradings!


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## JanetGeorge (11 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
Rambo is ridicuosly huge now. God job ID's have good temperaments. I'd hate to get on the wrong side of somehting that size. Both look pretty good to me, fingers crossed for the gradings! 

[/ QUOTE ]

He IS a bit silly, isn't he! 
	
	
		
		
	


	




  Fortunately he DOES have a very good temperament although he's tested the boundaries a few times - it's been quite difficult preventing him from realising his own strength!  We haven't led him in a headcollar for about a year now.  And he HAS to have a grill over his door or he'll walk through it - the bolts just snap!

Prince, though, is a total gent - he'll walk past mares in season in a headcollar with just a friendly 'hello' and a bit of piaffe! 
	
	
		
		
	


	





Once I get mare gradings out of the way (they're on Monday) then I'll have to start work on them in earnest!  But with 9 mares and fillies to prepare - for grading or Hornbys - and 8 of them being grey,
	
	
		
		
	


	




  they are taking priority at the moment! :


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## Maesfen (12 September 2008)

They're both lovely but I prefer the bay!

Good luck with all your mares too; busy girl!


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## britbreeder (12 September 2008)

What gradings are they going to?  Not sport horse surely?


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## CrazyMare (12 September 2008)

Irish Draught I believe


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## Halfstep (12 September 2008)

the bay is stunning, its so wonderful to see a proper ID, entire, and with such beautiful movement. He'll be a star I sure.


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## britbreeder (12 September 2008)

Phew!  I thought for a ghastly moment that the "movement" was being compared to a competition horse (no offense intended, as I'm sure that's good movement for a Draft horse).  Horses for courses and all that!


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## Clodagh (12 September 2008)

Thats a bit harsh, bb. 
	
	
		
		
	


	





I love the grey, but I love greys! I bet his mum's eyes watered when he was hatched!! 
	
	
		
		
	


	





Good luck with the gradings.


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## britbreeder (12 September 2008)

I did qualify what I said, so I don't think I was being harsh, people are allowed to have opinions different from yours you know.


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## JanetGeorge (12 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
Phew!  I thought for a ghastly moment that the "movement" was being compared to a competition horse (no offense intended, as I'm sure that's good movement for a Draft horse).  Horses for courses and all that! 

[/ QUOTE ]

No offence taken - just as I'm sure YOU won't take offence when I say you're talking bo**ocks! 
	
	
		
		
	


	




  You can only get a hint of movement in a still picture - but I can assure you that the bay is right up there with any competition-bred 2 year old you could find.  I already have a successful TOP dressage rider BEGGING me to allow her to compete him in a few years' time!!  His piaffe (while led in a headcollar) is stunning!  And his temperament is also far superior to any competition youngster you could find!  (And you can be damn sure that WHEN he gets to top level in dressage he won't screw up his chances by exploding in the arena at a critical moment!!)

You obviously haven't seen a GOOD ID moving!


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## CrazyMare (12 September 2008)

He is correct, doesn't use extra energy, light on his feet, therefore to me, he moves well weather that is despite his size or not!!! Although not my type at all, I can totally see that Janet breeds very good horses and is very experianced with it.

I'm afraid being blinkered to the 'sport horse' or 'competition horse' doesn't take into account the other blood added over time to get there - ID's have been crossed with TB's time and time again to create your competition horses.


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## Maesfen (12 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
Phew!  I thought for a ghastly moment that the "movement" was being compared to a competition horse (no offense intended, as I'm sure that's good movement for a Draft horse).  Horses for courses and all that! 

[/ QUOTE ]

Other people far better than I (especially Janet) have explained better but I must say that's incredibly harsh and arrogant to suggest they're not good enough to be sport stallions in the future.  Just because they might not be your cup of tea does not make them wrong to be included in sport breeding.  The IDs are far more likely to have the temperament needed for the big occasion let alone their movement being great enough to improve many mares, plus their usual strong constitution makes anyone who disregards them without checking all their attributes rather short sighted to me..


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## britbreeder (12 September 2008)

Oh my god, is this what happens here?  Someone has an opinion different from yours and gets sworn at and bullied?  Swearing at someone in such an unpleasant way and putting a smile after doesn't justify that behaviour, how dare you use such foul language on a public forum, how unprofessional.

What incredible arrogance to look down your nose at someone, and assume they don't know what they're talking about.  Just because I chose to breed and enjoy another type of horse does not make me inferior or my opinions invalid.

I'm sure you're very proud of your horses Janet George, but be careful of barn blindness and how you attack people, it's very unprofessional.

I can see why so many people are scared of posting on this forum now.


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## Zebedee (12 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
Phew!  I thought for a ghastly moment that the "movement" was being compared to a competition horse (no offense intended, as I'm sure that's good movement for a Draft horse).  Horses for courses and all that! 

[/ QUOTE ]

When you use phrases such as "For a ghastly moment I thought that the 'movement' was being compared to a competition horse" &amp; " I'm sure thats good movement for a draft horse" you must expect people to react to what appeared to be two very disparaging comments. In stating that your preference is for a 'competition type' you appear to be showing a total ignorance of the origins of todays modern competition types where in fact IDs have had a huge influence. 

Whilst I'm sure we all extend a very warm welcome to you a a new member of the forum you have a very confident posting manner for a 'newbie'.....I wonder if we've seen you before in another guise? 

(Now if you chose to interpret any of my post as bullying I would have to say that you must be a very sensitive soul indeed)


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## S_N (12 September 2008)

Well said Zebs!


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## toffeesmarty (12 September 2008)

I must admit that I thought I recognised style of writing and use of words in the first posting. The clue couldn't be in the name BRITbreeder could it? 
Ps Yes, we are soooooooooooooooo scary!!!


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## Beanyowner (12 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
Phew!  I thought for a ghastly moment that the "movement" was being compared to a competition horse (no offense intended, as I'm sure that's good movement for a Draft horse).  Horses for courses and all that! 

[/ QUOTE ]

How to offend people in one foul swoop. Numpty.


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## S_N (12 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
How to offend people in one foul swoop. Numpty. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry Beany, but I'm envisaging an awful lot of chickens swooping down on us.......


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## Beanyowner (12 September 2008)

HAHA!! Good point...be like that scene from chicken run when their throwing the eggs out of the giant chicken!


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## JanetGeorge (12 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]


What incredible arrogance to look down your nose at someone, and assume they don't know what they're talking about.  Just because I chose to breed and enjoy another type of horse does not make me inferior or my opinions invalid.



[/ QUOTE ]

You're the one who looked down your nose at my horses because they weren't the type YOU favour.  And revealed your ignorance of a breed that is found in the pedigree of EVERY decent sport horse that ever came out of Ireland!

When you attack my horses - AND you did! - then expect to be told!  If you don't like it, perhaps you should think before you offer your opinions in such a condescending manner!


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## britbreeder (12 September 2008)

I'm not sure I've seen many ID stallions or mares in the breeding of the KWPN or Hannover breeds, as I'm so ignorant, perhaps you could educate me?  I hear that the Belgians bought up all the Irish mares, but then ate them.

On the subject of movement, JanetGeorge said herself that you could only catch a glimpse of any movement in a photo, but I also have a copy of the Oldenburg catalogue being spoken about, and the glimpses of movement I see in those photos are not really the same.  As far as JanetGeorge's view on movement, what I'm seeing in those photos is not good movement which will cut the mustard in sport.  That is not "looking down my nose" just the standard "disallowed" point of view.  It's not an attack, and it's a shame that it's taken that way.  If what you say is true about the movement, why don't you submit your stallions for grading in a sport horse registry next year?  Then you can get a "non-ignorant" view on your stallions, although perhaps the "non-ignorant" view is based on the results.

The ID had an influence in jumper breeding, but that was at least three decades ago and only due to the TB outcross (the same as the Holsteiners), is the cross back a step forward in jumper breeding?  (that's a question not a statement).  Perhaps so if it's felt that horses are getting too light, but I have a feeling that it's the other way round. 

The ID's I've met have always been very sweet natured and docile, the crosses TB x ID I've ridden have always been super hunterhack/family horse types.  If I wanted a hunter type I'd go for tb x ID, because I'd want a horse to hack for a couple of hours in the forest (or longer) and be very good at it's job, a great horse and every type of horse has it's place.

So now that I've been sworn at, called names, and told I'm ignorant (all of which seem perfectly acceptable) is there any chance this could continue without the personal attacks please?

JanetGeorge, the day that using such foul language is acceptable is a very poor day, please take your potty mouth and bullying elsewhere.  You intimidate people here and don't allow anyone else to have a point of view.


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## wonkey_donkey (12 September 2008)

BB I agree everyone is entitled to their opinion on here but I must say your first reply was VERY nasty and un-called for.
Also, if the foreign folk want to 'eat' my irish mare they can 'kiss my arse first' (and yes that's swearing too !!


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## JanetGeorge (12 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]

The ID had an influence in jumper breeding, but that was at leastthree decades ago and only due to the TB outcross 


[/ QUOTE ]

Now let me think:  let's look at Headley Britannia.  Are you suggesting that her sire, Jumbo, got his jumping ability from his TB mum??  Or from Skippy - his RID sire - who - whoops - DID have a TB grand-dam - maybe the jumping ability came from her!  And I wonder where Jumbo got the movement that enabled him to win the Spillers Dressage and Showjumping Championship at Blenheim in 1997, and produce winning Prix St. George dressage horses, Grade A showjumpers and twenty two advanced eventers in the UK  alone!  I really DON'T think it was from the TB - although that would certainly have added the speed necessary for the old format eventing.

And let's look at just one 'modern' Irish Draught - Roma Diamond Skip - who is a Sport Horse Breeders (GB) Lifetime Approved Grade 1 stallion, whose dam was a Skippy mare.  His sire was Shauna's Diamond - NASTA Grade 1.  Funnily enough, his dam - an RID mare called Shauna - produced 3 graded stallions and had NO TB blood in five generations.

And Shauna's Diamond was by Diamonds are Trumps (by King of Diamonds).

Diamond's are Trumps turns up in all sorts of odd places - Rodrigo Pessoa's Richmont Park, Markus Fuchs's Royal Charmer to name just two.

And yes, gee, King of Diamonds was not PURE Irish Draught - but do we REALLY think his jumping ability - passed on to HUNDREDS of sons/daughters/grandsons/grand-daughters etc. etc. REALLY came from a long forgotten TB mare called Biddens (his maternal grand-dam) and NOT from the great RID stallion Errigal (who three of KoD's best stallion sons, Flagmount King, Flagmount Diamond and Flagmount Boy are all line-bred to??  )

And yes - two of those stallions are now dead (quite recently) but there are still young, talented jumpers by them doing well - and stallion sons of theirs still producing the goods!  So their influence lives on.  Flagmount Diamond is the sire of Nick Skelton's Virtual Village Hopes are High (now where COULD he have got that jumping ability??)   And the stallions Diamond Chin and Crosstown Dancer, both successful jumpers in Ireland. Diamond Chin as a, sire, has achieved 3rd place in the Genetic Index rating in Ireland.

No - you're right of course - the ID no longer has ANY influence on the production of jumpers!


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## JanetGeorge (12 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]

JanetGeorge, the day that using such foul language is acceptable is a very poor day, please take your potty mouth and bullying elsewhere.  You intimidate people here and don't allow anyone else to have a point of view. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Gee britbreeder - you've been here 5 minutes (or have you?  I too note a similarity in style with a recently departed contributor)) and already you're an expert on who intimidates whom on this forum - AND think you have Admin priveleges.  Funnily enough, I have a lot of friends on this forum - of which I have been a member for 5 years as against your stay of less than 24 hours  - so I think I'll stay if you don't mind!


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## britbreeder (12 September 2008)

There's no point getting into that debate, simply because the medal counts in both modern jumping and dressage do not support your findings, and I don't want to be attacked for providing facts.

If, in your opinion, you're stallions are such super movers (which was the basis of this promotional thread) which type of mares do you suggest they are crossed with in order to produce offspring that will have the ability to compete at the highest levels (not "advanced" eventers or "Grade A" jumpers who have scrubbed their way through thousands of low level classes over ten years to get their money up)?

BTW, I've been lurking here for years


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## jeanette10 (12 September 2008)

KEN'S BACK!!! 
	
	
		
		
	


	





How obvious.....never mind you will have three days of fun and then be banned again on Monday...


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## JanetGeorge (12 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]


If, in your opinion, you're stallions are such super movers (which was the basis of this promotional thread) which type of mares do you suggest they are crossed with in order to produce offspring that will have the ability to compete at the highest levels (not "advanced" eventers or "Grade A" jumpers who have scrubbed their way through thousands of low level classes over ten years to get their money up)? 

[/ QUOTE ]

1.  It was not a 'promotional' thread as neither colt is graded yet - and neither is for sale.  I liked the photos and wanted to share them with FRIENDS on this forum.

2.  Neither of them will be crossed with ANYTHING unless and until they grade.  IF the grey colt grades RID - and I'm not as confident with him as with the bay colt - then I suspect his job in life will be producing good heavyweight hunters and being used on RID mares who need extra bone added to the mix.  But that depends on what talent he shows once backed.  The bay colt I HOPE to keep and aim at a dressage career - maybe if he can make it to a high level he will be a very good stallion to use on 'hot' mares (of any breeding!) to produce more rideable and trainable offspring without sacrificing movement.  But the biggest demand will initially come from Irish Draught breeders because he is - first and foremost - very correct and 'typey'!  

As the former member you remind me of also forgot, not EVERYONE is aiming to breed top level competition horses.

And re your last gratuitous insult aimed at the breed, do you REALLY think Virtual Village Hopes Are High qualifies as one of these horses who have "scrubbed their way through thousands of low level classes over ten years to get their money up"????


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## britbreeder (12 September 2008)

Well you got the gender wrong (not that I'm ken's mother!), and I've a sneaky suspicion he's in the middle of the channel right now, on a boat on route to England (prior to that he was on the road for three hours, you can do the math).  This I know because he's crashing at mine tonight.  Shall I get him to say hello when he gets here?

Anyway, Janet..........................................?


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## PapaFrita (12 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
What incredible arrogance to look down your nose at someone, and assume they don't know what they're talking about.  Just because I chose to breed and enjoy another type of horse does not make me inferior or my opinions invalid.


[/ QUOTE ]
Ummmm... pot... kettle... black...
?


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## JanetGeorge (12 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]


Anyway, Janet..........................................? 

[/ QUOTE ]

Your question was .................?  I think I've answered your previous questions rather more fully than you've answered mine.  That's another habit you've obviously learned from Ken.


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## scotsmare (12 September 2008)

It was too quiet without Ken though 
	
	
		
		
	


	




  Are we sure Admin have the weekends off??


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## britbreeder (12 September 2008)

Janet, you'd answered whilst I was posting, but certainly you answered fully.  The crack is this then; your stallions are suitable for breeding hunters and Irish draughts (your own words).  So nothing mind blowing or unusual there, just breeding what they are supposed to, and I don't think Ken or anyone else here is going to argue about how to breed ID's or hunters (although I find the hunter's job fairly revolting).

I do not understand why you embroil yourself in arguments about dressage and jumper breeding, it seems facile to me for you to get yourself so angry and worked up, when you're essentially comparing apples with oranges, especially when it's not your subject.  I wouldn't have thought that Ken would suggest Jaguar Mail as a good mix to produce a hunter or ID.  By the same token, were you suggesting that one of your stallions was capable of either going to the Olympics or genuinely producing an olympic prospect?  No because that would be just plain silly.¨

Personally I thought Ken was a dick (and I told him that, so you don't need to take the cheap shot) for getting involved in an argument you and the other non performance breeders who know their subject (ie. not performance horse breeding), where the people who are breeding for performance (particularly jumpers) agreed with him 99% of the time.


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## jeanette10 (12 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
 Shall I get him to say hello when he gets here? 

[/ QUOTE ] 

LOL.....he is not THAT important!! 
	
	
		
		
	


	








  In fact he is not important at all.....did you see anyone cry without him here!

Come on now, we all know its Ken (wireless laptop and the fact that he has logged onto here before when crossing the chanel)....and if its not, then its someone who is his parrot and just typing what he is telling them to type!!

Scotsmare....admin dont work a weekend which is why BB probably joined today...


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## PrincessDana (12 September 2008)

Isn't Royal Concorde, Shane Breens Hickstead speed derby winner, an Irish Draught Sports Horse??? Just shows the ID crosses well with Warmbloods too


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## JanetGeorge (12 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
Janet, you'd answered whilst I was posting, but certainly you answered fully.  The crack is this then; your stallions are suitable for breeding hunters and Irish draughts (your own words).  So nothing mind blowing or unusual there, just breeding what they are supposed to.

I do not understand why you embroil yourself in arguments about dressage and jumper breeding, 

[/ QUOTE ]

LIKE Ken, you do not read posts before responding.

I said that Rambo (the grey colt) would probably be a sire for pure-breds - and those breeding HW hunters - but qualified it with:  "But that depends on what talent he shows once backed."

I said that Prince (the bay colt) would be aimed at a dressage career BUT "maybe if he can make it to a high level he will be a very good stallion to use on 'hot' mares (of any breeding!) to produce more rideable and trainable offspring without sacrificing movement."  Obviously, an RID stallion would HAVE to prove himself at high level before being taken seriously by those wishing to breed dressage horses!  As he's only 2, it's a little early to predict his future beyond his grading - but it is certainly my ambition to prove that an RID CAN make it to the top.  A number have got close - but their stud careers - or lack of suitable 'opportunities' - have got in the way.

As RID stallions are generally so easy to ride, owners tend to compete them themselves - or just have fun on them - and don't seek out top riders to produce them.  And that, IMHO, has been the undoing of some that have shown considerable early talent.  

_Personally I thought Ken was a dick (and I told him that, so you don't need to take the cheap shot) for getting involved in an argument you and the other non performance breeders, where the people who are breeding for performance agreed with him 99% of the time. _ 

But you're doing EXACTLY the same thing.  This thread had NOTHING to do with 'performance' breeding (whatever that is!)  You didn't bother to read it without diving in with your initial insulting remarks (if you HAD read it, you would have known WHAT gradings - my opening post STARTED "This is one of my candidates for Irish Draught stallion grading next February - doing a bit of loose schooling!")

I certainly didn't expect - or want - this thread to degenerate into a 'Warmbloods are the only thing worth breeding' thread - a la Ken!

And you can shove your 'non-performance breeders' insult where the sun doesn't shine.  Irish Draughts DO perform, so do many other breeds you would look down your nose at!  And no - I don't expect one of my colts to go to the Olympics - but I see NO reason why one of them might not - one day - produce a horse that might (given the right mare) - or sire a mare who might produce a future Olympic horse.

And no - I'm not angry or worked up - just bored with Ken/you - jumping into threads that have NOTHING to do with the stallions Ken pimps for - and trying to knock other breeds and breeders in the process.


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## JanetGeorge (12 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
Isn't Royal Concorde, Shane Breens Hickstead speed derby winner, an Irish Draught Sports Horse??? Just shows the ID crosses well with Warmbloods too 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

Yep - he's out of a King of Diamonds mare.  Just PROVES the ID is redundant in jumper breeding, doesn't it. 
	
	
		
		
	


	




   Of course, ALL his jumping ability COULD have come from Concorde and NONE of it from the King of Diamonds line


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## toffeesmarty (12 September 2008)

Does he whinnie with an Irish accent? That'd be one way to prove it.


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## britbreeder (12 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
 I said that Rambo (the grey colt) would probably be a sire for pure-breds - and those breeding HW hunters - but qualified it with: "But that depends on what talent he shows once backed."  

[/ QUOTE ] Im not going to disagree with your there, thats onevery  heavy horse and hell no doubt produce heavy weight hunters.  Did you say something about him going to Hornbys?  It that to pull locomotives?

 [ QUOTE ]
 I said that Prince (the bay colt) would be aimed at a dressage career BUT "maybe if he can make it to a high level he will be a very good stallion to use on 'hot' mares (of any breeding!)  

[/ QUOTE ] Yes, I think hell go perfectly with a Weltmeyer mare

 [ QUOTE ]
 to produce more rideable and trainable offspring without sacrificing movement.  

[/ QUOTE ] Im sure that they will be more trainable and rideable, but they WILL be sacrificing movement whatever you may think, that is just plain crap movement.  

 [ QUOTE ]
 Obviously, an RID stallion would HAVE to prove himself at high level before being taken seriously by those wishing to breed dressage horses!  

[/ QUOTE ] Do ya think so? Are you seriously suggesting that your ID stallion will produce dressage horses?  Dear god Janet, this is just too funny.

 [ QUOTE ]
 As he's only 2, it's a little early to predict his future beyond his grading 

[/ QUOTE ] You seemed very assured of his future earlier in the thread why the doubt now?

 [ QUOTE ]
 but it is certainly my ambition to prove that an RID CAN make it to the top.  

[/ QUOTE ] Thats a commendable ambition, but has the smell of failure all over it.

 [ QUOTE ]
 A number have got close - but their stud careers - or lack of suitable 'opportunities' - have got in the way, 

[/ QUOTE ] theres always a good reason. 
	
	
		
		
	


	




  A typical losers attitude.

 [ QUOTE ]
 As RID stallions are generally so easy to ride, owners tend to compete them themselves - or just have fun on them - and don't seek out top riders to produce them. And that, IMHO, has been the undoing of some that have shown considerable early talent.   

[/ QUOTE ] That may well be right, I wouldnt argue with you there, but have you thought that perhaps it was also because of their limitations?

 [ QUOTE ]
 This thread had NOTHING to do with 'performance' breeding (whatever that is!)    

[/ QUOTE ] If you dont know what that is, that might (is) be where youre going wrong.

 [ QUOTE ]
 I certainly didn't expect - or want - this thread to degenerate into a 'Warmbloods are the only thing worth breeding' thread - a la Ken!   

[/ QUOTE ] Well that might have had something to do with your claim of fantastic movement, and trying to promote your future stallions.

 [ QUOTE ]
 And you can shove your 'non-performance breeders' insult where the sun doesn't shine.   

[/ QUOTE ] You owe me a new keyboard, I just spit my coffee all over it laughing.  Youre a real beaut!  Do men find you attractive?

 [ QUOTE ]
  Irish Draughts DO perform,  

[/ QUOTE ] No!  Irish draught crosses perform (that's with tb), some of them do very well and the odd one at the top level. Shane's horse is an example of the second generation, second outcross.  Please don't tell me that this is all down to ID's.

 [ QUOTE ]
 so do many other breeds you would look down your nose at!  

[/ QUOTE ] There are over thirty different studbook/breeds which perform at the top level, pure Irish Draught aint one of em!  I wouldn't look down at ID's they have their place, but if you're representative of them............dear god!

 [ QUOTE ]
 And no - I don't expect one of my colts to go to the Olympics  

[/ QUOTE ] I see a chink of light!

 [ QUOTE ]
  but I see NO reason why one of them might not - one day - produce a horse that might (given the right mare)  

[/ QUOTE ] Oh dear god!  Well at least you understand the importance of mares, shall we give Ratina Z a quick buzz and see if she's interested?  You're too funny.  Chink of light fizzles out.

 [ QUOTE ]
 - or sire a mare who might produce a future Olympic horse.   

[/ QUOTE ] Right so youre talking about a second generation outcross.  Knock knock Janet, they did that 30 years ago, catch up honey.  This is not your opportunity to reinvent the wheel.  Which century are you living in?  Has Cook found Australia yet?

 [ QUOTE ]
 And no - I'm not angry or worked up.   

[/ QUOTE ] So swearing and general abuse is standard for you?  I can smell the Penfold's sponsored red mist in Surrey deary.

For those of you who study and understand the difference between coincidence and irony, the main reason for Kens visit (Blenheim) seems to have been cancelled (sad coincedence), but the second reason is to pick up his new Labrador..whose name is PADDY.  Now that just plain funny (as well as classic irony).

Time to open the yellow label and put it next to the AGA, so ta ta for now (shows age!).

BTW Janet thanks for helping get the hunting ban through, we always knew you'd help, bless you.


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## Zebedee (12 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]


_Personally I thought Ken was a dick  _ 

And no - I'm not angry or worked up - just bored with Ken/you - jumping into threads that have NOTHING to do with the stallions Ken pimps for - and trying to knock other breeds and breeders in the process. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Hear hear to the above. Can I make a suggestion that we leave Ken &amp; his clones to toss their doctrines back &amp; forth between themselves &amp; not bother replying to their dross anymore? I have to apologise for my reference to the Borg in an earlier thread. The somehwt hysterical daleks would have been a far closer analogy


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## JanetGeorge (12 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]


Hear hear to the above. Can I make a suggestion that we leave Ken &amp; his clones to toss their doctrines back &amp; forth between themselves &amp; not bother replying to their dross anymore? I have to apologise for my reference to the Borg in an earlier thread. The somehwt hysterical daleks would have been a far closer analogy  
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

You're right.  BRITbreeder has a 'personal' beef with me - not my horses - revealed in his/her profile - "I hate blood sports and all forms of hunting. "  He/she forgot to say that he/she extends that hate to everyone who hunts - or promotes hunting.

Does this forum have an 'ignore user' button??


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## S_N (12 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
Does this forum have an 'ignore user' button?? 

[/ QUOTE ]

It certainly does Janet!  Go to their profile and it is one of the options at the bottom in red type.  A wise decsion I think!


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## Zebedee (12 September 2008)

Janet I do hope that you didn't infer that I was including you in the phrase 'Ken &amp; his clones toss their doctrines back &amp; forth between themselves'? That certainly was not my intention - it was aimed mainly at S**tbreeder &amp; his ilk, &amp; certainly not at you.


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## JanetGeorge (12 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
Janet I do hope that you didn't infer that I was including you in the phrase 'Ken &amp; his clones toss their doctrines back &amp; forth between themselves'? That certainly was not my intention - it was aimed mainly at S**tbreeder &amp; his ilk, &amp; certainly not at you. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh heavens no - never crossed my mind.  (No-one could mistake me for a Ken clone - and certainly no-one who talks as much sense as you do! 
	
	
		
		
	


	




)  And the aptly-renamed new member is at the total end of the doctrinal scale from me on more things than horse breeding.


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## buzzles (12 September 2008)

What beautiful stallions, especially the bay, I would definitely use an ID of that quality and movement for either of my mares! Good luck at the gradings!


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## magic104 (13 September 2008)

Oh dear Admin are going to be busy on Monday!  I like the ID &amp; ISH which is why I have used them.  We have a branded SF at the yard, if that is an improvement on what we breed then you can keep them.


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## SpottedCat (13 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]

The ID's I've met have always been very sweet natured and docile, the crosses TB x ID I've ridden have always been super hunterhack/family horse types.  If I wanted a hunter type I'd go for tb x ID, because I'd want a horse to hack for a couple of hours in the forest (or longer) and be very good at it's job, a great horse and every type of horse has it's place.


[/ QUOTE ]

I never post in here because, well, I don't breed, but this is one of the more amusing things I've read on this forum - are you seriously saying that IDxTB does not equal sports horse? Because I beg to differ, as the one I have in the stable seems to be doing a pretty good job of being a Novice eventer, who is trainable, has bags of scope (will go intermediate at some point in the future when I learn to ride well enough) and moves well enough that a respected dressage trainer told me I'd do very well on him if I did pure dressage. 

ETA - he's 'defined' as a british warmblood, in reality if you look at his bloodlines, his sire was angloarabxIDxTB, his dam was a full TB - so he's mostly TB with a bit of arab and a bit of ID in the mix. He has the feet and head of an ID - it's very obvious when you see him 'in the flesh'. He's got that ID trainability and temperament as well, and I'd have another like him in a shot. 'Proper, serious' riders like him too - two professional 4* eventers have asked me if his breeder has bred another with the same lines (she didn't sadly). 

Here is a link to (rather a lot) of pics of him doing his job (and I agree, riding leaves a bit to be desired!)


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## koeffee (13 September 2008)

i have to say irish breeding is important and i think gustavii stud have bred some world class horse with there irish x warmblood crosses, but i must admit i find the tit for tat childish and uncalled for, we all know our horses and our hopes for them, who cares what others think, proof is in the pudding, can we just go back to enjoying our horses and successes and posting on happy days!!!!! dont shoot me for this.


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## SpottedCat (13 September 2008)

If you make sweeping statements such as the one I quoted above, you have to expect people will point out the obvious flaws in your argument. I couldn't care less what any breeding expert thinks of my horse as it is immaterial since he is a gelding, I was just tickled by the fact that an expert thinks IDxTB can't make a sportshorse, and rather than saying 'you're wrong' I chose to provide evidence that they can indeed make a sportshorse. I shall go back to competition riders now!


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## koeffee (13 September 2008)

yes you have the right to defend what is said but it goes on and on and on, i know i started the last one that got removed. it was directed at not one person but it ended that way.


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## Maesfen (13 September 2008)

This was a totally happy post until Ken/BB stuck their oar in with an obviously very insulting and hurtful remark just because the Irish Draught (see, I can spell it, unlike him/them!) does not appeal to him.  So if we're talking about tit for tat, then yes, they started it!


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## SpottedCat (13 September 2008)

Ok, will make a mental note not to post on any threads longer than 2 pages where there may be a difference of opinion in future


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## koeffee (13 September 2008)

no need for sarcasm


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## SpottedCat (13 September 2008)

But at what point should people stop posting on a thread then?


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## koeffee (13 September 2008)

well spottedcat you obviously want to get into a tit for tat. that is not what i said, so you keep posting i couldnt care less.


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## magic104 (13 September 2008)

The Irish Horse Board seem happy to promot their horses as per this link

http://www.irishsporthorse.com/_fileuplo...6006bdc096e.pdf


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## JanetGeorge (13 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
I was just tickled by the fact that an expert thinks IDxTB can't make a sportshorse,  

[/ QUOTE ]

What on earth makes you think britbreeder (whoever he or she is) is an expert!  He/she is CEARTAINLY not an expert on Irish Draughts or Irish Sport horses - and would - I think - have ignored this thread if it hadn't given him/her a chance to attack me.

I'm just sorry he/she chose to stuff up a thread which was merely intended to show some nice pics of two of my boys having fun.  Perhaps he/she should take its vitriol over to the Hunting Forum and stay out of breeding - which tends to be a friendlier place where we try to help and support each other!


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## SpottedCat (13 September 2008)

Sorry, should perhaps have put 'expert'?? Certainly they are self-styled as such in the way they come across if you see what I mean. Anyway, best of luck with the gradings, I happen to be a big fan of the IDxTB sportshorse.


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## Fleur100 (13 September 2008)

Just to add my two pennies worth. At the BEF Futurity, UK Arena, the panel went out of their way to comment on an IDxTB foal as being just the type of breeding to aspire to. Personally I think it was overkill on the promotion of the TB stallion in question but there was no doubt over the quality of the foal and its potential suitability.....


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## Pinkwellies2 (13 September 2008)

Have really deliberated about posting in here cos of the heated nature of this post but then thought what the heck, I am entitled to my opinion either though I don't breed or know any thing about it.  Think I know a nice horse when I see one though so JanetGeorge, just wanted to say loved the pictures of your stallions, love ID and IDx horses, bright bay in my siggie is an IDx and is one of the kindest most genuiue horses you could meet. Sometime think I shouldn't have sold him. 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 Wanted to wish you luck for your grading although sure you won't need it.


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## Zeus (13 September 2008)

I just cant believe the arrogance of some people! Janet you wont be the only person hitting the ignore user button.


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## Pinkwellies2 (13 September 2008)

Am assuming this a quick reply, don't think I said anything arrogant.


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## Zeus (13 September 2008)

Oh I wasn't referring to you Pinkwellies, sorry I was referring to BritBreeder.


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## MissIndependance (14 September 2008)

Wow - that was an impressively quick degeneration from a proud 'look at my boys having fun' post to an out and out personal attack on someone! Rude doesn't come close!

I can see why people are intimidated on this forum if there's a risk that their horses will be slated like that.

I prefer the bay out of the 2 but then that's because I prefer a lighter build of horse - having seen Rambo in the flesh though he certainly is impressive! And HUGE!


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## cruiseline (14 September 2008)

I have resisted the temptation to get involved with this discussion, personal insults are not my thing!!!!!!!!!!! 

However, I have posted to say JanetGeorge, your boys both look like lovely examples of their breed, good luck with the grading. I am sure there are more than a few TB type mares out there who would love to produce a sports horse foal from either of them.

<u>Correct me if I'm wrong, but!!!</u> 

I have always been lead to believe from both documented evidence and the old boys of breeding that the Warmblood evolved from a combination of Cold Blood and Hot Blood horses (hence the name), or am I confusing that with the infamous Tepid Blood Horse that we hear so much about.


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## PrincessDana (14 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
or am I confusing that with the infamous Tepid Blood Horse that we hear so much about.



























[/ QUOTE ]

Pmsl


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## Ciss (14 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]

<u>Correct me if I'm wrong, but!!!</u> 
I have always been lead to believe from both documented evidence and the old boys of breeding that the Warmblood evolved from a combination of Cold Blood and Hot Blood horses (hence the name), 

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes that is true but the rule for generations (probably about 18 -20 in Hannoverian, Trakehner and Swedish breeding to quote just three of the more successful/established ones) is that it should be the blood (quality) on top of bone as the other way round tends to produce an over-bodied horse with light bone. I understand that recent research into the role of mitochondrial DNA (which always comes from the dam and governs overall development) supports this so it is something to bear in mind.

[ QUOTE ]
or am I confusing that with the infamous Tepid Blood Horse that we hear so much about. 

[/ QUOTE ]

About 30 years ago -- when Swedish warmbloods were far less modern and sharp than they are today -- someone described them to me as Swedish luke-warm bloods but haven't ever heard of tepids!

Drabant and a few hot Trakehners plus some pretty sharp Holsteins soon resolved that situation though!


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## cruiseline (14 September 2008)

Also I might be mistaking it for the Luke Warm Blood, the Hand Hot Blood, the Elbow Test Blood and of course the Babies Milk Blood (I have heard that this one is still its infancy though), all as infamous as the other.


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## cruiseline (14 September 2008)

Ciss, that wasn't aimed at your post, it was just a continuation of my previous post. 

We must have been typing at the same time.


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## Pinkwellies2 (14 September 2008)

Thats okay Zeus, sorry am always a bit worried about saying the wrong thing.  Paranoid me, not at all 
	
	
		
		
	


	





Cruiseline, pmsl at this, but don't lets forget the Room Temperature Blood


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## magic104 (14 September 2008)

Ciss you are of course correct, but as you know it can work out very well.  It was the thing of the "old days" to take the working mare to the local HIS TB stallion.  These were either used as hunters or recurited by the army (I understand this is were the premiums started).  This information is available on the SHBS site "Our History".  I took a gamble putting my TB type mare to an ID stallion but her daughter was no disapointment &amp; is now in the Head stud book herself.  Mind there seems to have been some controversy of how good the SHBS gradings really are.


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## Fahrenheit (14 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
Also I might be mistaking it for the Luke Warm Blood, the Hand Hot Blood, the Elbow Test Blood and of course the Babies Milk Blood (I have heard that this one is still its infancy though), all as infamous as the other.
















[/ QUOTE ]

PMSL... you forgot the Moderately Warm Blood 
	
	
		
		
	


	





Although I don't breed Irish Horses, I love Irish horses and I think both of JG's are stunning (BIG...but stunning!) 
	
	
		
		
	


	





My own horse, who is now sadly retired was ID 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 a few people use to snigger at his size but soon lost their smiles when he whopped their tushies, no one told him he was 17h, he thought he was 12.2 and could turn on a sixpence  
	
	
		
		
	


	





I think the attitude and rudeness of some people are best ignored... the only person they are making look bad is themselves


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## JanetGeorge (14 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]


Yes that is true but the rule for generations (probably about 18 -20 in Hannoverian, Trakehner and Swedish breeding to quote just three of the more successful/established ones) is that it should be the blood (quality) on top of bone as the other way round tends to produce an over-bodied horse with light bone. 


[/ QUOTE ]

I think that is probably true when crossing a TB with a cold blooded draught horse but in my experience it doesn't hold true with Irish Draughts.  A lot of good Irish sport horses are, of course, TB stallion on an ID mare - but I suspect this was more because Irish breeders HAD the IDs and they are incredibly hardy and cheap to keep compared to TB mares - and, of course, until a few years ago, Irish sport horses were fetching more than pure-bred IDs.

I find that even my BIG ID can produce very elegant sport horses when put on a TB mare - and he has considerably less TB in his pedigree than some.  Some years ago, I nearly didn't bother going to see a potential hunt horse as she was described as 'full TB'.  When I saw her, I saw nothing to make me question that.  I bought her, got her passport and found she was in fact by Enniskeane Prince (RID) out of a TB mare.  She LOOKS like a pretty TB with a  _tiny_ bit more bone than a TB.  Her daughter, by an RID, looks like a first cross.

Some of the BEST Irish Sport horses have in fact been by the RID.  Jumbo (xSkippy); Virtual Village Hopes are High (by Flagmount Diamond RID out of a mare whose sire was TB but dam line unknown) and dozens/hundreds of others.


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## jaffs (14 September 2008)

Beautiful Boys Janet. Thanks for posting. 
Britbreeder (Who ever you are behind that title ) you are pathetic.


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## Shark (14 September 2008)

There are good and bad in every breed so one can't generalise as some people on this forum seem to do all the time.  The King of Diamonds legacy has yet to be matched by any Warmblood with only Nimmerdor getting close so far!!  I breed from both ID and TB/WB and have done so for over 20 years and some are competing internationally, why can't people look at the individual horse, take their breeding into account as regards conformation traits etc and then keep their judgement to themselves, the other thing WHO THE HELL CAN TELL FROM PHOTOS!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Tharg (15 September 2008)

Good luck with the grading.  Plenty of pics!


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## dannydunne (15 September 2008)

has king of daimonds really left a legacy only comparing to nimmerdor? what about cor de lay bryere? landgraf? alme? capitol? argentinus? concorde? grannus? quidam de revel? le tot de semilly? sandro? surely it depends how you define legacy? i'm not saying he wasn't a great stallion but to say that nimmerdor only comes close seems a bit strange considering there have been greater stallions who have changed breeding considerably and left great legacies behind aswell.


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## Ciss (15 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
There are good and bad in every breed so one can't generalise as some people on this forum seem to do all the time. 

[/ QUOTE ] 

I certainly agree with the forst part of this sentence but as for the latter -- as weare often quite specific in our arguments becuase generalitoes tend to get (very necessarily) questioned -- I see less and less evidence of it (apart from the occassional niave post from a newbie of course).


[ QUOTE ]
The King of Diamonds legacy has yet to be matched by any Warmblood with only Nimmerdor getting close so far!!  

[/ QUOTE ] 

As someone who has described themselves in other threads as having been to many gradings over the past 20 years (although how many of these were abroad you do not say) I am really surprised that you have made this statement as even the briefest galnce at the relevant statistics for bloodline legacies will show you that:

1 The latest (end of 2007) list of the top 50 sires of graded sires in WBFSH studbook across all disciplines does not include King of Diamonds; Nimmerdor is there in 25th place as he was in 2006 with the top four being Quidam de Revel, Contender, Donnerhall and Sandro Hit
2 The similar list for sires of dams of graded stallions also contains no mention of King of Diamonds with Nimmerdor in 4th place, Ramiro Z in 1st, Landgraf in 2nd and Pilot in 3rd
3 Neither of these lists feature *any* stalion (king of Daimonds descendent or not)  that is described as either ISH or RID

but then perhaps the lagacy you describe is not in top international competition perhaps? 

[ QUOTE ]
 I breed from both ID and TB/WB and have done so for over 20 years and some are competing internationally, why can't people look at the individual horse, take their breeding into account as regards conformation traits etc and then keep their judgement to themselves 

[/ QUOTE ] 

Sorry but to post up photos of soon-to-be-presented-for-grading colts is to invite comment, although the actual expertise of those commenting does sometimes not bear too much close examination 

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
 the other thing WHO THE HELL CAN TELL FROM PHOTOS!!!!!!!!!!! 

[/ QUOTE ]
Absolutely true; whilst some flatter far more do not and promoting stallions (especially potential ones) is such a tough thing to do that I am alwasy surprised that people continue to lay themselves open to this.

Just to add Quidam de Revel currently has 80 sons graded in WBFSH studbooks, Contender 79, Donnerhall 69, Sandro Hit 67 and Nimmerdor 31 whilst Ramiro Z has 90 daughters that have prodiced currently graded living sons, Landgraf has 87, Pilot has 63 and Nimmerdo has 58.

Now that's what I call a legacy


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## cruiseline (15 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

<u>Correct me if I'm wrong, but!!!</u> 
I have always been lead to believe from both documented evidence and the old boys of breeding that the Warmblood evolved from a combination of Cold Blood and Hot Blood horses (hence the name), 

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes that is true but the rule for generations (probably about 18 -20 in Hannoverian, Trakehner and Swedish breeding to quote just three of the more successful/established ones) is that it should be the blood (quality) on top of bone as the other way round tends to produce an over-bodied horse with light bone. I understand that recent research into the role of mitochondrial DNA (which always comes from the dam and governs overall development) supports this so it is something to bear in mind.


[/ QUOTE ]

Does that mean that both Lenamore and Mr. Medicott were both lucky breedings, they are exceptions to the rule. 

Or is it that they were carefully bred using the correct combination of hot and cold blood to produce 2008 Olympic competitors. (although I am happily surprised that Cruising has produced a youngster with a length of stride) 
	
	
		
		
	


	





I think you will find that there are plenty of horses competition in international competitions that have some form of Irish blood a lot closer to them than 18-20 generations.

IMO the breeding of sports horses will go full circle, in the not too distant future. More power and substance will be required to lift the standard both from a soundness, ridability and effectiveness point of view, the balance has been tipped to far one way, it really needs to be levelled out again.

And in will walk the Irish Draft..............................


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## Ciss (15 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
 Does that mean that both Lenamore and Mr. Medicott were both lucky breedings, they are exceptions to the rule. 

Or is it that they were carefully bred using the correct combination of hot and cold blood to produce 2008 Olympic competitors. (although I am happily surprised that Cruising has produced a youngster with a length of stride) 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

Well, not wishing to stir up too much of a hornet's nest here but I have always understood that Mary McCann has always been very reluctant to have Cruising DNA'd for parentage (he is not known as the Irish Milton for nothing ) and as for pony paces not being passed on perhaps that is due to the fact that Nordlys was a TB anyway and he himself has usually tended to be used on big raking TB/TB type mares anyway. So as for ID input that close up ....

As for Lenamore, one of the fascinating things about this list is that there is always an example that someone can call up that seems to destroy an argument, but one (or even a couple) of swallows don't make a summer or counteract several decades of breeding practice in most of the rest of the world.

[ QUOTE ]
 I think you will find that there are plenty of horses competition in international competitions that have some form of Irish blood a lot closer to them than 18-20 generations.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you are a bit confused here. I never said there was no ID blood -- or indeed no heavy blood of any type be it RID, Gron, Geld, Old etc -- in any sports horse pedigrees as even the most superficial examination of German, Dutch and French (let alone Irish) pedigrees will show these charactiristics coming up even as close as the 5th generatiopn (say the early 1970s), but mainland Europe has been breeding on/ refining up from them consistently since thenn and that is where the difference lies.

[ QUOTE ]
 IMO the breeding of sports horses will go full circle, in the not too distant future. More power and substance will be required to lift the standard both from a soundness, ridability and effectiveness point of view, the balance has been tipped to far one way, it really needs to be levelled out again.

And in will walk the Irish Draft..............................   
	
	
		
		
	


	









[/ QUOTE ]

I would beg to differ as the FEI is moving more and more towards testing rioder competence and skills (more and more technically related distances, difficult changes of terrain and level, complex quick transitions etc) all of which require a quick acting, sensitive, brave (hot) and super athletic horse rather than more power and forgiveness of rider error, but we shall see. OTOH, how such developments will help resolve the problem of producing a top class Elite horse and an all-rounder from basically the same stock is hard to see and perhaps some of us will have to accept that breeding the equine version of an F1 car is not the same as producing an equine Vauxhall Estate and market our products accordingly.


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## firm (15 September 2008)

Slightly OT  but maybe part for the reason why many Irish Stallions &amp; most UK stallions have no or little stallion son legacy is because there is not tradition for keeping colts entire in this country so usually the male lines who made it to the top are inevitably geldings.  When I have been abroad it always surprizes me at the number of stallions in livery yards with young girls handling &amp; riding them - not the norm by any stretch in the UK and something that was very much frowned upon when I was growing up.


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## PrincessDana (15 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
IMO the breeding of sports horses will go full circle, in the not too distant future. More power and substance will be required to lift the standard both from a soundness, ridability and effectiveness point of view, the balance has been tipped to far one way, it really needs to be levelled out again.

And in will walk the Irish Draft.............................. 
	
	
		
		
	


	









[/ QUOTE ] 

I really hope ths is true. I loved the old fashioned warmbloods and hunters. Nowadays, everything is getting lighter and lighter


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## firm (15 September 2008)

I agree with both CL &amp; PD here. I have  as many people asking for an athletic foal of a stronge type as I have people asking for a refined so called "modern" type  
	
	
		
		
	


	




   I like both types


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## britbreeder (15 September 2008)

And in will walk the Irish Draught..

Perhaps not.  When you take a good hard look at the breeding industry in the European powerhouses, it is impossible to see how the pure ID will ever stand a chance.  This is an industry where people expect to make money (not here, but in Europe), thus there is no way any breeder, large or small, is going to take the risk on an F1 hybrid (F1 in genetic terms, not motor racing) involving the ID.   The reasons are simple, they would consider that outcross to be too much risk, where scope, movement etc could be lost.  With the tb, perhaps a forward thinking breeder may have a second generation goal, but they would understand that would be making a sacrifice in the first generation.

If a German breeder were looking to increase bone and general size, they already have that in Berlin and Cumano, why look for other unproven alternatives, when the answer is sitting on your doorstep with medals around its neck?  And these stallions come with little or no risk of losing scope or rideability, its a no-brainer.

You might get the odd ID x tb cross super stallion, but hed have to be so successful in the ring, that hed be dead before his first kids hit the top international classes.

Also, where you have these outcrosses which have become successful (Holsteiner being one classic example of  a cart horse crossed with a tb), youll find that 99/100 are tb stallions on top of draft mares, NOT the other way round.  Again, this is fact not opinion.

Thankyou CISS for the addition of statistically backed up facts, always useful in breeding debates.


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## cruiseline (15 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]

And in will walk the Irish Draft..............................   
	
	
		
		
	


	









[/ QUOTE ]

I was using the ID as an example hence the  
	
	
		
		
	


	








, however I do think that more substance will be required to lift the 'modern' sports horse in the not to distant future.

The circle of life, as they say.


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## firm (15 September 2008)

BritBreeder  whilst I don't disagree with your post,  it is referring to what breeders on mainland Europe would do &amp; that is not the same as what breeders in the UK will do. This is because the UK has a different mare base,  different traditional breeds  &amp; because of that there is a market for ID x foals that would not exist in mainland Europe. Not every breeder in mainland Europe will use the top class stallions &amp; so will breeders in the UK use their tradtional crosses &amp; when talking about British breeding that has to be taken into consideration. Coming onto a thread and being very rude about ID stallions and applying European breeding philosphy  (sp  
	
	
		
		
	


	




) straight across the board of the breeding situation in the UK is too simplistic a view on British breeding &amp; market.  
	
	
		
		
	


	




      There is demand for good ID x TBs and seeing the prices that ID mares go for there is a demand for them as well. I would say it is perhaps  easier for a UK breeder to get a high price for a good pure RID filly than for a UK bred filly foal out of a UK mare by one of Kens top stallions for instance.   Horses for courses


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## britbreeder (15 September 2008)

I wouldn't disagree about demand for the "good ID x tb" cross, because if you read my post I have said that same as you.

Regarding the UK mare with one of "Ken's top stallions", I'm not so sure.  I think you'll find that next year, when they all start hitting the ground (and economic conditions being not too horrible), you'll see some very good prices.  I would say that you're talking about different markets though, buyers aren't going to be buying a pure ID filly with the intention of taking her to the Olympics (I could be wrong, but it's unlikely).

I think that we will see a two or three tiered breeding system in the UK in the future, but that's a different strand to this subject.

The point to this entire thread, is that the two unapproved stallions being talked about, are in my opinion (one to which I am entitled) not going to provide British breeders who breed for performance in the Olympic disciplines, with the tools they require for all the reasons already given.  I have never argued that they would make super stallions for breeding Irish Draughts, that would be their natural job.  But to suggest anything else would be barking up the wrong tree.


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## Tharg (15 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]

The point to this entire thread, is that the two unapproved stallions being talked about, are in my opinion (one to which I am entitled) not going to provide British breeders who breed for performance in the Olympic disciplines, with the tools they require for all the reasons already given.  I have never argued that they would make super stallions for breeding Irish Draughts, that would be their natural job.  But to suggest anything else would be barking up the wrong tree. 

[/ QUOTE ]

That was never what this thread was about!  That is, until you came in with cheap swings.


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## jaffs (15 September 2008)

I second that.


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## Maesfen (15 September 2008)

Ditto to Tharg and Jaffs.
Although I know Janet can (and has) stood up for herself, it was very unfair for this to become so heated; there was absolutely no need for it at all.


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## britbreeder (15 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
 Although I know Janet can (and has) stood up for herself, 

[/ QUOTE ] 

I guess you can easily justify her use of disgusting obscenities, in her response?  There are children who use this forum, although it is always inappropriate to use such language and name calling on a public forum.

 [ QUOTE ]
 it was very unfair for this to become so heated; 

[/ QUOTE ] 

Absolutely, it is a shame that a number of you cannot possibly accept that somebody has a point of view different from yours.  You consider it perfectly acceptable to screaming foul language and insults.  If you are so sure that what you say is right, why resort to playground (although not any playground I ever went to) and sewer language?

 [ QUOTE ]
  there was absolutely no need for it at all.  

[/ QUOTE ] 

I'm glad we agree on that, a shame that some of you are so fixed in your ideas and unable to accept change and advancement.


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## Maesfen (15 September 2008)

This thread was for someone to show us her lovely young colts and that alone.  
It went downhill only after your derogatory and insulting remarks so I feel you only have yourself to blame for any vitriol that that caused.

As per your comment -"a shame that some of you are so fixed in your ideas and unable to accept change and advancement."  
Perhaps you could take a leaf out of your own book by realising that warmbloods aren't the B all to end all to all of us; that we all are not trying to breed 'world class' types, just sensible, attractive and honest types that the average rider can handle and enjoy, so perhaps we can agree to disagree nicely and not say either viewpoint is the only or correct one instead?  I know it will be hard for you though.


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## jaffs (15 September 2008)

Oh, do give us a break Ken Klone, until you joined in it was a very pleasing post from someone who is extremely proud (and rightly so) of her boys.
Foul language? Aw Bless, you have led a sheltered life


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## Shark (15 September 2008)

Well insult me if you must but you do not know anything about me other than my few posts!!  Most of the Stallions you have mentioned I have in bloodlines in my stock, naive I am not!!!!  I will dig out the stats on KoD for you as his numbers of top international competition stock, as well a his 1st and 2nd generation offspring's top International and Olympic offspring still out number the ones you have mentioned by miles, that's what I call a legacy and unlike you I am not belittling the accomplishments of the other great stallions like the ones you have mentioned!!!!

To clarify I was not even thinking about these lines for Dressage breeding!! That would in my opinion be fruitless for top international.  

As for being a newbie I am not but if you are naive enough to think so just because of this sign in then that is your mistake!!!


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## JanetGeorge (15 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]

The point to this entire thread, is that the two unapproved stallions being talked about, are in my opinion (one to which I am entitled) not going to provide British breeders who breed for performance in the Olympic disciplines, with the tools they require for all the reasons already given

[/ QUOTE ]

The whole point to this thread was NOT to suggest they would!  The whole point to this thread was to show pics of two nice ID colts having a ball!  It was made very clear in my first post that these were ID colts being prepared for ID grading - nothing else.  So you proved you could be insulting, off-topic, AND incapable of reading in your first post!  CLEVER girl!  

_I have never argued that they would make super stallions for breeding Irish Draughts,_ 
Actually, you did.  You said: "that is just plain crap movement."  Stallions with crap movement DON'T grade RID - and if I thought you had a clue, I'd forget about taking them to grading.

Funnily enough, I prefer to go by the judgement of the IDHS Inspectors - 2 from UK and 1 from Ireland - who were here today inspecting mares but who kindly had a look at the two colts for me.  And as a result of their expert advice - as opposed to the half-baked views of the Ken Clone - Rambo may not go in February as they considered him still a little immature - and not quite good enough in his hindquarter yet.  That may change once we back him in October and start getting him fit - only time will tell.  They could find very little to fault in Prince.

And now I WILL hit the 'ignore user' button - so don't bother sticking your oar in on my threads in future, britbreeder - as it's pretty clear you know nothing about Irish Draughts and I actually don't care what or who you hate. (Such a tedious emotion - hate!)


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## Ciss (16 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
 I will dig out the stats on KoD for you as his numbers of top international competition stock, as well a his 1st and 2nd generation offspring's top International and Olympic offspring still out number the ones you have mentioned by miles, that's what I call a legacy 

[/ QUOTE ] 

Sorry, we are not talking about total numbers of progeny grinding around the international circuit over about 20 years (don't even go there as the international statistics of the stallions I mention would blow your mind) but about a far more relevant and immediate legacy -- that of graded stallion sons and graded sons of graded daughters of the stallions in question that are currently at stud and producing top horses. Most competition horses (even international ones) are still geldings so they are only a legacy in the first generation, unless you fancy cloning them of course. And come to think of it if KOD is so absolutely fantastic why hasn't any of his offspring been recruited for one of these cloning operations? Just wondered, although I am no fan of cloning myself, but it is a good guide as to where the real value and money is being thrown at the moment.

[ QUOTE ]
 and unlike you I am not belittling the accomplishments of the other great stallions like the ones you have mentioned!!!! 

[/ QUOTE ]

So statistics (non-specific) quoted by you do not belittle other stallions when ones grounded in verifiable data that use a common playing field to compare them belittle the ones that do not show up well. Hmm -- an interesting view of how the breeding world functions. Also, it was your original post that originally mentioned Nimmerdor etc in rather derogatory terms, which I have to say was a little odd as you now say that many of your horses are actually descendents of the bloodlines you describe as being so unsuccessful in comparison. But then if they are so unsuccessful why have them? I am a bit confused about your overall philosophy of horse buying/breeding now.

[ QUOTE ]
To clarify I was not even thinking about these lines for Dressage breeding!! That would in my opinion be fruitless for top international. 

[/ QUOTE ] 

Ah, but several of the stallions I have mentioned do produce dressage horses, especially out of their graded daughters, so don't assume that showjumping stallions don't so this just becuase KOD hasn't.

[ QUOTE ]
 As for being a newbie I am not but if you are naive enough to think so just because of this sign in then that is your mistake!!! 

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahh, just what we all love on the list -- another one with a multiple personality  (and probably suspended under a previous name if the tone of your last post is anything to go by) and who contradicts him/herself several times in the same post.  &lt;ROFL&gt;

Excuse that outbreak of hysterical laughter but it is now very hard to take anything you say seriously as a  result


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## stolensilver (16 September 2008)

I'd like to reply to this post starting from the beginning: Those look like two lovely colts having a lot of fun. I really like the bay, he looks lovely.

Then to move on to the debate about the worth of Irish Draughts (and the Dutch versions of the ID) in international competition and as a riding horse. I think it is very relevant to this conversation that in the UK less than 5% of the total horse population take part in any sort of affiliated competition. Which means that 95% of the horse owning public are not that competitively minded. If you talk to most horse owners the characteristics that they want in their horses are safety, reliability, soundness and fun. In other words there is always going to be a market for the Irish Draught and the Irish Draught Sports Horse. That these horses also produce top class athletes (the Irish Horse Board is still number 1 in the WBFSH rankings for eventers) is IMHO a bonus. It is not the reason most of them are bred.

I've owned several ID x TBs and a full ID as well as a few Warmbloods. I am a competitive rider. When I go out I want to win. The best horse I have ever had is an Irish Draught x TB. She has cleared 5'6" many times, bloodhounded over 20 miles XC and cleared 100 fences and still been ready for more. She has also been in the top 50 in the country at medium level dressage standing ahead of Richard Davison and Hiscox Aliano!!! and is currently competing Advanced dressage, ready to move up to PSG. She has the ability to go to Grand Prix, the "difficult" dressage moves of 1 time changes and piaffe are easy for her. The problem is that I have never done dressage before and am learning the moves and teaching this horse how to do the moves at the same time which makes for fairly slow progress. Because of this we may not reach GP before she becomes too old to do it. Now isn't that a horse that most people would love to own? Talented, forgiving, sound and sensible? What makes her achievements all the more remarkable are that I'm an amateur with a full time job and she only gets ridden 3 times a week. 

  The horse above isn't an isolated example. She is the best horse I've owned but all the other IDxTBs I've had have taken me over 5' and been sound and trainable. In comparison the warmbloods I've had have often been more tricky. If they are sharp enough to be competitive they have been nightmares as youngsters and feisty as older horses. If they were easy as youngsters they were not quite sparky enough to do the highest levels of dressage. They definitely are not as forgiving of rider mistakes as the IDx. 

I think there is an argument going on here that is comparing apples against chocolate bars. If breeders want to breed for an Olympic horse they may fall lucky but by definition an Olympic horse is going to be in the top minute handful of the horse population. It is not uncommon for the ultra talented horses to be hot and difficult and too much for the average rider to handle. To use a stallion with those characteristics in a breeding programme always runs the risk of getting a foal with the fiery temperament that can only be handled by a professional but not enough talent for a professional to be interested in the horse. The horse then falls between two stools and becomes almost impossible to sell.

I think (hope I'm not making too much of an assumption here) that people like Janet breed horses for the market. In other words horses that are sane, sound and easy. At least no one has disputed the generosity of the Irish Draught temperament. If an IDx turns out to be a superstar then that is a bonus. But if a horse bred to be kind, sound and amateur friendly turns out to have a monster jump or talent for dressage (and the number of IDx horses in the upper levels of dressage is rising fast) then you have an easy, talented horse for a professional to bring on. If it does not you still have an amateur-friendly horse.

Ciss mentioned that the KWPN have been actively culling the older, heavier lines from their breeding programme. This is true and there are many Dutch breeders who think it is a big mistake. Consider several top modern Dutch warmbloods that have Gelderlander blood: 

Olympic Ferro 50% 
Elorianne (competing at Aachen, WEG's) 75% 
Amora (rider: Oded Shimoni, first Israeli in WEG's) 100% 
Aktion 75% 
Elymas (Canadian National Grand Prix Champion) 50% 
Bellini 50%  
Mr President ?50%

Bearing in mind there are only 300 Gelderlander mares and 5 stallions in existence this is some achievement, not all that dissimilar to the situation with IDs.

Looking through the pages and pages of young horses for sale right now I see IDx and warmbloods for sale for around the same price and similar numbers of each are selling. Looking in the schoolmaster sections of horses for sale the IDx horses (even in dressage) seem to sell faster.

Most people in the UK don't want an Olympic calibre horse. Most people just want a horse they can enjoy and afford to keep and not worry about soundness issues. Those who do do affiliated competition never get beyond Elementary in dressage or Newcomers in showjumping or Novice in eventing. That is the market. Most people are not superstars, they ride for fun. Breeding horses for the people who are going to buy them makes sense! To breed a kind, easy horse that may also become an top class athlete is just the cherry on top. I think that is the right approach to breeding, not trying to breed a super-talented horse that has no home if they do not have enough talent.

It is a fact that more horses are put down earlier on the continent than in the UK (insurance data). I don't know the reason for this but I do wonder if the aims of the breeding programmes in Europe and in the UK have some bearing on this statistic?


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## cruiseline (16 September 2008)

Welcome Stolensilver, very well put, I agree with you.

I added a 'who would you clone' thread and it is interesting to see, that quite a lot of the horses that people would clone are the 'old' type of warmblood. 

Does that mean that the 'modern' type does needs more substance, rideability, soundness etc. 

Hmmmmmmmmmm


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## Ciss (16 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
Welcome Stolensilver, very well put, I agree with you.

I added a 'who would you clone' thread and it is interesting to see, that quite a lot of the horses that people would clone are the 'old' type of warmblood. 

Does that mean that the 'modern' type does needs more substance, rideability, soundness etc. 

Hmmmmmmmmmm 

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are looking for a generous horse that is forgiving of a not particularly educated or unathletic rider (however ambitious they might be) then probably yes. But not if you are breeding one that will work with the rider to overcome the increasingly technical demands set by the FEI at top level where quick, althletic, sensitive response is the key factor in success.

The world moves on -- and gets more complex and diverse as it does -- so going back to horses that would fit the demands of earlier years is not really the way to progress at top level. OTOH, it probably dioes provide a safety net for the next level down and as I said in an eaelier post it is producing the joined-up thinking that will address both sectors that is really the issue we should address.

Perhaps one way of doing this would be to conciously identify/ promote those horses that attend the Futurity qualifying rounds (not the finals) that get good vet, conformation and temperament marks )so will hopefully stay sound for a long time) but drop down to 2nd Premium becuase they do not have the necessary athleticism as having good potential for just this group of riders. That sounds a feasible plan for me but bearing in mond thta the group so identified could well include some horses already identified as 'worldbeaters' by their proud (possibly barn blind/newbie) owners and breeders I am not sure how well such an independent assessment would be greeted as a marketing tool (probably dismissed as an insult to those so classified I am afraid). Comments anyone as I am just trying to draw some sort of positive theme/ solution out of this at times rather contentious thread.


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## Shilasdair (16 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]

Perhaps one way of doing this would be to conciously identify/ promote those horses that attend the Futurity qualifying rounds (not the finals) that get good vet, conformation and temperament marks )so will hopefully stay sound for a long time) but drop down to 2nd Premium becuase they do not have the necessary athleticism as having good potential for just this group of riders. That sounds a feasible plan for me but bearing in mond thta the group so identified could well include some horses already identified as 'worldbeaters' by their proud (possibly barn blind/newbie) owners and breeders I am not sure how well such an independent assessment would be greeted as a marketing tool (probably dismissed as an insult to those so classified I am afraid). Comments anyone as I am just trying to draw some sort of positive theme/ solution out of this at times rather contentious thread. 

[/ QUOTE ]

I am probably fairly typical of the average buyer in the UK, perhaps more experienced than some as I've made a living in the equine industry (not the breeding sector!) for the past nearly 20yrs.  
If I had felt more welcomed by studs and at the shows, I would have spent my money buying a youngster/s (3 - 5yr old) from them.  As it is, the studs I visited seemed to think that by selling me an average youngster, they'd be depriving Zara Phillips et al, the chance to take it to Olympic level and thus make their fame/fortune as breeders.    I have to question event studs, where their breeding philosophy results in hardly a horse sound enough to break by 3 or 4yr old (and I do know of at least one such stud), who then get sold anonymously through the local low-end sales.  Are these the same animals who, although not quite Olympic grade, are supposed to be suitable for me?  The ones with difficult temperaments, unsoundnesses and little talent for anything?
This may sound harsh, but I wish the British breeding industry would make some efforts to meet its customers half way, rather than excluding them from the process, then whinging when the buyers don't materialise, or don't rate the failed Olympic prospects as highly as the studs do.
S


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## htobago (16 September 2008)

What an excellent post, stolensilver! That post should go on a sticky so we can all go back to it for reference every time this debate comes up (i.e. about every 5 minutes LOL)! 

And yes, your ID x TB sounds like exactly the sort of horse at least 95% of riders would dearly love to own - do you have any ph otos of her?

I see that you are new - welcome!

Without making any claims to any expertise in this area, could I ask a (possibly naive and stupid) question?

I wonder if there would be a different perception of the TB x ID if we renamed it and called it the 'British Warmblood' - which is more or less what it is, essentially, right? A mix of 'hot' and 'cold' blood to produce a sport horse? Same basic principle as the Continental WBs, anyway, although they then cross them with each other, rather than repeating the original hot x cold as we do?

I agree that much of this thread has been comparing chalk and cheese. The role/value of the 'pure ID' should be compared with the role/value of the 'heavy'/'draught'/'carriage' breeds originally used the in the development of the Continental WBs, surely? 

The horse that can legitimately be directly compared with the Continental WBs, is the 'British WB' (or ISH, if you prefer), the TB x ID - and this horse is, it seems, still the best in the world for eventing, just as the Continental WBs are the best in the world for dressage/sj?

Yes, the TB xID sometimes benefits from infusions of 'other' blood - but then so do the Continental WBs benefit from additional infusions of TB blood (without which they wouldn't exist in the first place anyway)? 

Another naive question: it seems to me that the main difference between the 'British WB' - the TB x ID - and the Continental WBs is, as I said, the fact that we repeat the 'original' hot/cold cross, whereas they cross the results with each other in various ways. So - if we were to cross TB xID horses with other TB x ID horses over many generations, would the results then qualify as a 'Warmblood'? 

And does anyone know why we haven't done this? Why DO we keep repeating the 'original' cross instead? (Not saying we shouldn't - just curious as to why we have taken such a different approach.)

Please forgive me if I've missed something blindingly obvious - I'm just trying to learn!


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## Ciss (16 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]

Are these the same animals who, although not quite Olympic grade, are supposed to be suitable for me?  The ones with difficult temperaments, unsoundnesses and little talent for anything? 

[/ QUOTE ]

I would sincerely hope not, and that is why I stressed that such animals would ahve to score highly in the vetting, conformation and temperament sections of the Futurity but be a bit lacking in the athleticism department. 

[ QUOTE ]
This may sound harsh, but I wish the British breeding industry would make some efforts to meet its customers half way, rather than excluding them from the process, then whinging when the buyers don't materialise, or don't rate the failed Olympic prospects as highly as the studs do. S 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

Couldn't agree more, so why not come and see what the Futurity particpants have for sale -- and the marks they get when presented -- as a major part of your buying /sourcing trips next year?


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## britbreeder (16 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
 The ones with difficult temperaments, unsoundnesses and little talent for anything? 

[/ QUOTE ] 

But that doesn't represent the entire residuals market does it?  NO, there are just as many unsound, unrideable etc etc etc horses from all breeds.


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## Shilasdair (16 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
 [ QUOTE ]
 The ones with difficult temperaments, unsoundnesses and little talent for anything? 

[/ QUOTE ] 

But that doesn't represent the entire residuals market does it?  NO, there are just as many unsound, unrideable etc etc etc horses from all breeds. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I think in my experience, it does.  
I have just sat here for about 10 mins, going through the horses that my friends and horsey acquaintances (leisure riders who compete at the bottom end if at all) have bought from studs.  Without exception, none of them have worked out as riding horses.  Some were unrideably sharp for their owners, but most were unsound, or very quickly became so.  My friends did not misrepresent themselves to the sellers, so that can't be the reason.  And most if not all of the had professional help...but it still didn't work out.
How depressing!
S


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## JanetGeorge (16 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]


I think (hope I'm not making too much of an assumption here) that people like Janet breed horses for the market. In other words horses that are sane, sound and easy. At least no one has disputed the generosity of the Irish Draught temperament. If an IDx turns out to be a superstar then that is a bonus. But if a horse bred to be kind, sound and amateur friendly turns out to have a monster jump or talent for dressage (and the number of IDx horses in the upper levels of dressage is rising fast) then you have an easy, talented horse for a professional to bring on. If it does not you still have an amateur-friendly horse.



[/ QUOTE ]

Welcome stolensilver - I THINK I know your mare and she is indeed a SUPERB example of the versatility and talent of MANY ID sport horses.  I can't disagree with anything you say.  And you certainly are correct in your assumption.

My first priority is to breed the BEST pure-bred Irish Draughts that I can - judged against the breed standard AND the demand for a good riding horse for any discipline.  Second priority is to breed a few nice ID sport horses who can demonstrate the attributes of my stallion as a cross for TB/hunter type mares.  If I happen to breed something capable of getting to the higher levels in either dressage or showjumping, then that would be a very welcome bonus! 

The extreme shortage of pure-bred Irish Draughts makes it difficult to 'improve' the breed;  the IDHS(UK) only grades 2-3 colts each year (and we lose more than that to age and accident.)  So few pure-bred stallions concentrate on competition - stud duties get in the way.  I think that's an awful shame!  But when you consider that for 2006 (the most recent year I have the figures for) just 114 RID mares were bred pure, we just don't have the numbers to play with.  

 [ QUOTE ]
The role/value of the 'pure ID' should be compared with the role/value of the 'heavy'/'draught'/'carriage' breeds originally used the in the development of the Continental WBs, surely?   

[/ QUOTE ] 

No - that's a misconception.  Maybe 50 years ago it might have been more accurate - the breed (which was always dual purpose - a horse who could pull the farm cart to market on Friday, take farmer hunting on Saturday, and pull a buggy to church on Sunday!) had got a bit heavy and coarse and some introduction of TB blood was allowed over the following 35-40 years to produce a more athletic, riding horse who still had the brain and the bone for MOST adult riders.  Within the purebreds today, there is still a division of 'type' - the 'traditional' type (mares 15-2 to 16 hh with 9 inches or more of bone and built like a brick outhouse!) and the more modern type - a little taller, lighter of bone and more 'refined'.  Some Irish Draught breeders think we have already gone too far away from the traditional type.

 [ QUOTE ]
So - if we were to cross TB xID horses with other TB x ID horses over many generations, would the results then qualify as a 'Warmblood'?

And does anyone know why we haven't done this? Why DO we keep repeating the 'original' cross instead? (Not saying we shouldn't - just curious as to why we have taken such a different approach.)  

[/ QUOTE ] 

The problem with crossing the first cross on the first cross (and it is done quite a lot!) is that the results can be quite variable.  The TB is pre-potent and an ISHxISH mating CAN result in a horse that's virtually pure TB - or a mix that doesn't really 'match' (ID body on TB legs, for example.)

A better cross is often an RID on ISH (for a bit more bone and substance) - OR a TB or WB on an ISH - for a horse with more speed and scope (but still hopefully retaining sufficient bone and a level head!)

But the first cross is an excellent one - (as stolensilver has demonstrated) and what we NEED to do is improve the parents on both sides; select RIDs more stringently for movement and athleticism (and that is now being done by requiring all ID colts to loose school over fences at grading and be independently judged for jumping ability by a senior BSJA representative) - and look JUST as critically at the TB part of the match.  I would like us to go further and require mares for grading to jump as well - although that would cause a few complications as many people grade ID fillies at 2 and put them in foal at 3.


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## colouredcob (16 September 2008)

My word what a bun fight! JG your horses are lovely

Cob


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## stolensilver (16 September 2008)

Many thanks for the warm welcomes.  
	
	
		
		
	


	





I'm relieved other people agree with my post. It's always worrying waiting for responses, especially as a newbie posting on a subject that so many people feel deeply about. 

Janet I'm sure you're thinking of the right Irish Sports horse. Here she is doing a recent advanced class.

http://www.grabmeimaphotographer.com/store/details.php?gid=214&amp;pid=12140

Shilasdair I'm sorry to hear about your experiences with buying from British breeders. My experiences have been very different. Almost every horse I've had has been bought as an unbroken youngster from a British breeder. Often the studs were very small and it took a lot of phone calls to even find that the stud existed. The breeders have, with no exceptions, been kind, courteous and knowledgeable. 

The prices I've paid for youngsters has varied quite a lot over the years. My best horse (the grey above) was £1000 as a foal 15 years ago. That was money well spent! She came from a greengrocer in Yorkshire who had an old event mare behind his shop and bred a foal from her every year. Another horse I bought was full sister to 2 graded approved stallions in WBFSH studbooks, one had been national dressage champion and trained up to Grand Prix before being sold to the States. That mare was £5000 as an unbroken 4yo. She was good enough to take me to the finals of the National 6yo Young Dressage Horse Championships so is every bit as good as her brothers. (She was a witch to ride when she was a baby though!)

What I'm trying to say is that my experience with British Breeders is that they do have good stock and they do price them very fairly. How many full sisters to approved stallions could you get in Germany for £5000?! But I have only dealt with small breeders who have a handful of broodmares and often breed to stallions because they like them rather than putting them to the latest big name from Europe that they have not ever seen other than in carefully taken advert photos. Personally I'm much happier buying this sort of horse from this sort of knowledgeable breeder. 

If we want to breed Olympic horses in the UK IMHO we do not want to send over to Holland/Germany/Belgium for frozen semen from a stallion that is all the rage this season. Without seeing a stallion up close and personal you will never find out what the front leg/ back leg/ pelvic conformation is really like. Without seeing the stallion yourself and dozens of his progeny with their dams you cannot know what type, conformation and temperament in the mare really suit him. Sending away for frozen semen from a hot young stallion that lives in a different country is just making the lottery of breeding even more uncertain. Surely it is better to go to a stallion that you know and understand? I get depressed when I read one mare owners being encouraged to use Sandro Z Meyer or Quater Pilot on the strength of a couple of nice foals out of a total crop of 500+. The outstanding foals are not going to be representative of what that stallion usually throws. What breeders need to know is how to stack the odds in their favour of getting a good foal . They need to know which stallions must be put to laid back mares. Which stallions need a mare with an excellent back leg. Which stallions are a bad mix with a long backed mare. Without this knowledge the UK stands little chance of breeding Olympic standard horses and this sort of knowledge is closely guarded by the people who have it!

And of course there is the point made before: how many people really want an Olympic quality horse? Would a stud that singlemindely pursued Olympic dreams be able to sell enough young horses that missed the grade to stay in business?


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## Maesfen (17 September 2008)

I have to say you are a breath of fresh air; thank you for joining us!


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## JanetGeorge (17 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]


Janet I'm sure you're thinking of the right Irish Sports horse. Here she is doing a recent advanced class.

http://www.grabmeimaphotographer.com/store/details.php?gid=214&amp;pid=12140

..... My best horse (the grey above) was £1000 as a foal 15 years ago. That was money well spent! She came from a greengrocer in Yorkshire who had an old event mare behind his shop and bred a foal from her every year.  .....


[/ QUOTE ]

Ah yes, that's the one!  And what a fantastic example of the cross she is!!  And what a bargain - even 15 years ago!  Of course, that greengrocer would be the sort of breeder many would look down on - but he had a good mare and obviously picked the right stallion to complement her.

And let's face it, the stallion can only do so much!!  The mare HAS to suit the stallion and be very good in her own right to produce a very good horse.  Going back to RIDs - where this thread started - you wouldn't believe the number of mares who come in to my chap who have NO bone, NO depth, or whatever - and mare owner expects Raj to 'fix it' in one foal!!  Doesn't happen - even with pure-breds - and certainly NOT in the cross-bred of ANY breed.  You CAN be lucky and get an 'ordinary' mare that nicks well with a particular stallion and produces a foal MUCH better than its dam.  I had one here last year - purebred - but not my cup of tea at all and not much to recommend her.  She was probably lucky to grade.  Yet her filly by Raj is outstanding and a top stud has bought the mare and foal - purely for the foal (and the fact the mare managed to produce such a good foal despite her own shortcomings!)  They may be lucky and find the mare nicks well with another good RID - or that her genetic make-up is better than the external view!  Only time will tell.

But whatever the breed, IMHO, we have to look at the mare AND the stallion with equally critical eyes.  And we have to look PAST them - to the grand-parents - and possibly the great-grand-parents, if possible, to identify those potential world-beaters.

And the stallions to be using (again, of ANY breed!) are those who are successful sons of successful sons - not flukes.  I'm not highly 'up' on Warmbloods, but if I WAS looking for a Warmblood sire to breed competition horses then I'd be looking at Quidam deRevel or one of his more successful sons, or a horse of similar performance history.

If looking at RIDs, then I WOULDN'T be looking at King of Diamonds(if he was still available) - purely because his conformation and breed type don't suit - but I'd certainly look at a stallion or mare whose conformation and type were more to my liking but who carried KoD a little further back!

Let's face it, any foal is a fairly random mix of the genes it has inherited from several generations - it may inherit a bit of the best and a bit of the worst (or none of the best and a LOT of the worst!!)  Good and bad traits can skip a generation (or 3)!


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## htobago (17 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]



 [ QUOTE ]
The role/value of the 'pure ID' should be compared with the role/value of the 'heavy'/'draught'/'carriage' breeds originally used the in the development of the Continental WBs, surely?   

[/ QUOTE ] 

No - that's a misconception.  Maybe 50 years ago it might have been more accurate - the breed (which was always dual purpose - a horse who could pull the farm cart to market on Friday, take farmer hunting on Saturday, and pull a buggy to church on Sunday!) had got a bit heavy and coarse and some introduction of TB blood was allowed over the following 35-40 years to produce a more athletic, riding horse who still had the brain and the bone for MOST adult riders.  Within the purebreds today, there is still a division of 'type' - the 'traditional' type (mares 15-2 to 16 hh with 9 inches or more of bone and built like a brick outhouse!) and the more modern type - a little taller, lighter of bone and more 'refined'.  Some Irish Draught breeders think we have already gone too far away from the traditional type.

 [ QUOTE ]
So - if we were to cross TB xID horses with other TB x ID horses over many generations, would the results then qualify as a 'Warmblood'?

And does anyone know why we haven't done this? Why DO we keep repeating the 'original' cross instead? (Not saying we shouldn't - just curious as to why we have taken such a different approach.)  

[/ QUOTE ] 

The problem with crossing the first cross on the first cross (and it is done quite a lot!) is that the results can be quite variable.  The TB is pre-potent and an ISHxISH mating CAN result in a horse that's virtually pure TB - or a mix that doesn't really 'match' (ID body on TB legs, for example.)

A better cross is often an RID on ISH (for a bit more bone and substance) - OR a TB or WB on an ISH - for a horse with more speed and scope (but still hopefully retaining sufficient bone and a level head!)

But the first cross is an excellent one - (as stolensilver has demonstrated) and what we NEED to do is improve the parents on both sides; select RIDs more stringently for movement and athleticism (and that is now being done by requiring all ID colts to loose school over fences at grading and be independently judged for jumping ability by a senior BSJA representative) - and look JUST as critically at the TB part of the match.  I would like us to go further and require mares for grading to jump as well - although that would cause a few complications as many people grade ID fillies at 2 and put them in foal at 3. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you Janet! I understand a bit better now, I think. So you are saying that the 'Draught' in 'Irish Draught' is maybe a bit of a misleading term? That the ID already has a fair bit of lighter/hotter/TB blood and is a sort of heavier 'WB' in its own right? I hope I have understood correctly!

Interesting what you say about the ISH x ISH not being a particularly successful cross - that would explain why we have not gone down that route (or not very much). But I don't understand: you say that ISH x ISH is often not successful cos the TB blood dominates too much and you end up with something that is too much like a pure TB, right? But then you say that TB x ISH is a better cross, and does work well - yet surely the TB blood would dominate even more in this case than in the ISH x ISH?

Or am I misunderstanding? Sorry to be so dim - I don't mean to nit-pick; I am just trying to get all this clear in my befuddled mind.


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## JanetGeorge (17 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]


Thank you Janet! I understand a bit better now, I think. So you are saying that the 'Draught' in 'Irish Draught' is maybe a bit of a misleading term? That the ID already has a fair bit of lighter/hotter/TB blood and is a sort of heavier 'WB' in its own right? I hope I have understood correctly!

Interesting what you say about the ISH x ISH not being a particularly successful cross - that would explain why we have not gone down that route (or not very much). But I don't understand: you say that ISH x ISH is often not successful cos the TB blood dominates too much and you end up with something that is too much like a pure TB, right? But then you say that TB x ISH is a better cross, and does work well - yet surely the TB blood would dominate even more in this case than in the ISH x ISH?


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, the RID is rather more 'refined' today than it was 50 years ago and the 'draught' part IS misleading (although pure-bred RIDs can be fantastic carriage horses you wouldn't want to do too much ploughing behind them!  
	
	
		
		
	


	




)

And yes - even in the first cross the TB CAN dominate - particularly if the draught side happens to have TB blood close up - but it's more likely when the TB is close up on BOTH sides.

You get a lot of variation, though, even in the straight TB x ISH:

to demonstrate:
The first pic is an RID gelding of the more 'modern' type.






(he's also rather too inbred for my liking - if he'd been a mare I'd have steered clear.)  But he's a stunning little horse of whom a top dressage trainer has said he definitely has the potential to go PSG.

The second is an ISH with a lot of TB blood - close to 7/8ths!







He's bigger than the first, with PLENTY of bone, and looks like a 1st cross might!

And this chap has SLIGHTLY less TB than the 2nd - is MUCH slighter, less bone, and real TB action (and brain!)  That's a perfect example of TB dominance - a lot of people who've seen him didn't believe he had ANY ID blood.


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## seabiscuit (17 September 2008)

And to add to the variation- my little man ( in my sig, the one with the white snip) who was by the I.D Kensons Aragorn and out of a TBx Trak mare, looks like he has absolutely no Irish Draught in him at all! He was predominantly a thoroughbred type- small and pony like. However, he certainly had the Irish Draught brain, willingness and toughness which made him an outstanding event horse.


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## volatis (17 September 2008)

welcome to the forum SS, really glad you've joined us as I know you will add plenty of good points of view to the mix.

And I totally agree with your points on breeders shouldn't use latest uber German stallion just becuase he is commercial (sorry to go off track) as I know just how different some of these stallions are in the flesh and how important it is to see as many offspring as possible. I know its very hard for breeders to get over to mainland Europe but if you can, you should. Its a real eye opener.


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## Ciss (17 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
  I know its very hard for breeders to get over to mainland Europe but if you can, you should. Its a real eye opener. 

[/ QUOTE ]

What is good though is that a surprisingly large number of them to manage to get over to see the stallions, mares and youngstock, listen to the breeders and judges discuss what goes with what, why last years hot number did / did not live up to expectations etc -- and the number is growing every year.

When you see the quality of foals that have been gaining 1st premiums in the Futurity around the country -- and especially the ones that made it to the finals -- you do realise that (certainly amongst that sector of the industry) the correct, informed breeding decisions are being made here and the horse management skills are such that they are actually likely to be far sounder and of better temperament than their foreign cousins as well (no concrete yarding, zero turn out and high peercentage of operated-on joint mice for them by the age of 2 years old!). 

Obviously this doesn't fill the gap created by the needs of the average or lesser rider UNLESS and UNTIL the breeders that say they address that market make a deliberate and promoted choice of using less athletic but mentally and physically sound graded parents on both sides of the pedigree and target the products to that market and also price them as what they are (ie good all-round mounts for the novice competitor not worldbeaters please &lt;sigh&gt.

BTW, a word of clarification: a warmblood horse is not a straight cross between a hot blooded horse and a cold blooded one. Whilst the 18th and 19th century original breeding programmes were based on that rather extreme cross and a considerable amount of lighter blood was also introduced again after the war when the market changed to produce riding horses and more quality and speed was needed quickly to attract buyers, the TB and lightened up lines are now so prevalent that it does not really apply as an accurate description anymore. 

The general definition accepted across most warmblood studbooks -- and what differentiates them from sports horse studbooks -- is that a warmblood is a horse with two parents graded into one of the established warmblood breeds developed in mainland Europe that use as a basis of their grading system an initial stringent conformational and paces grading followed by a series of on-going performance tests for work under saddle (could be at a testing centre and/or in competition) and progeny results in gradings and under saddle). Such horses are almost always required to have at least 5 geenrations of *proven* pedigree and even TB, Anglo, Shagya and Arab stallions that are graded into these studbooks usually have to undergo the grading tests even if they are winners on the race course (Stravinsky and Lauries Crusador are god examples of this). The whole system has also been running in most cases for 18-20 generations -- and sometimes for up to 200 years -- without the addition of any outside 'heavier' blood (I think the last case was the Holstein breed when it used some Cleveland Bay stallions in the late 1890s to improve its carriage horses). Some lines are heavier in bone than others --and recognsied and used as such where a little more substance would be desirable, but even they do not have the straight shoulders, long loins and flat croups that have gone with 'substance' in the past becuase those are essentially the qualities needed for horses that pull things (ie go into a collar on their forehand) and this is precisely not what is wanted in a modern competition horse. 

Sports horse studbooks on the other hand do tend to accept horses far more on phenotype than genotype -- and some (I think we all know which ones) have pretty minimal (or bizarre interpretations of) performance / progeny testing requirements which is why it can be very difficult to sell a 'sports horse' papered colt as a stallion prospect to a country where a 'warmblood' society is dominant. Having sold a Pro-Set stallion prospect colt that was registered with one of these stud books (he was out of a highly graded KWPN mare) into a 'new' warmblood breeding country I can tell you that even there the resistance to the word 'sport' was very strong and I have also had to change the emphasis of the title of the book I am writing from sports horse to warmblood becuase 'the Americans won't be interested in a book about sports horses, they are only interested in warmbloods! (quote).

Yes, I know that the Americans by a lot of ISHs to compete on (especially in equitation and their extremely lucrative and competitive hunter classes) but we are talking breeding stock here, not riding horses.

Well, that's my little trip around the UK, Europe and the wider world done for today, but hopefully it does put it all into context a little more.


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## JanetGeorge (17 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
And to add to the variation- my little man ( in my sig, the one with the white snip) who was by the I.D Kensons Aragorn and out of a TBx Trak mare, looks like he has absolutely no Irish Draught in him at all! He was predominantly a thoroughbred type-

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep - perfect example.  Kenson's Aragorn, who I had on breeding loan last year and have 4 pure-bred foals by, is actually quarter TB (he's about 19 now and hails from the time when a 3/4 ID colt was eligible for grading on inspection.  Three of my Ari foals definitely show that dash of TB quality - the 4th is the incredible bulk!  
	
	
		
		
	


	





Ari himself is very 'typey' as an RID (wouldn't have graded otherwise) but does have a very elegant head and neck compared to many RID stallions.  He also got to Adv. Medium dressage and could have gone a lot higher if he'd started rather younger than he did (he hunted and show-jumped first!)  Sadly, Ari is now retired (with his owner 'delphipuppy') - his one graded RID stallion son, Bowland's Bradley, was sadly lost very soon after grading.  I'm just hoping one of my two boys by him will be good enough to follow in his footsteps!


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## stolensilver (17 September 2008)

Hi Volatis! Nice to see you. 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 You certainly do the homework of a dedicated breeder. I don't know anyone who has taken the time and trouble to go and see as many different European stallions as you have.

Interesting post Ciss. You are clearly someone who believes in breeding for Olympic champions! I was surprised at some of the things you posted though. Firstly while I support the Futurity wholeheartedly and think it is a great idea for British breeding I don't have the same amount of faith as you in the judges being able to spot the outstanding individuals of tomorrow when they are just a foal. If it was that easy all the top breeders would buy the future superstars at weaning! 

I hope you are right that the UK bred performance horses will end up with less OCD than their contintental cousins but this is in no way certain is it? OCD is multifactorial and the way the horse is reared is only one factor. If the UKs horses do turn out to be sounder than the European ones not only would that be a major selling point for UK youngstock it may also make the Europeans change the way they bring up horses. Or is that wishful thinking?

I do disagree about the amount of Irish blood that is introduced into European studbooks. It may not be entered under its original breed but Irish horses and others do end up in the Dutch gene pool fairly often as mares of unknown parentage. They are taken into the lowest studbook based on their competition record, bred to a KWPN stallion, the offspring grades into a higher book than the dam and so on. 

I really don't understand the resistance warmblood studbooks have to Irish horses. Even UK warmbloods reject Irish blood. Why? We know they cross well with warmbloods, just look at all the outstanding Cavalier Royale offspring there have been over the past couple of decades. Most of those were out of mares with Irish Draught blood. I really believe that if the SHB(GB) encouraged breeders to use the best of British blood, the sound, sane, tough horses that we've ridden and loved for years and judiciously mix them with the best European warmbloods while being careful to keep the soundness and easiness of the UK bloodlines I think they could develop something unique and special. Why try to copy the Germans and the Dutch? They've been doing it far longer than we have and have cornered the market. UK buyers believe that continental horses are better than UK ones. We must all know someone who has struggled to sell a horse in the UK, sent the horse to Europe and sold the horse at a much increased price to a British buyer from a German/ Dutch/ Belgian yard!!!

This next paragraph may be one that other people do not agree with however here goes... I'm fairly worried about the way a lot of breeders are using more and more line breeding. It is not yet quite as bad as in dogs but most pedigree dog breeds have lost 90% of the gene pool they had in the 1940s because of the inbreeding that has been done. If they were wild animals the narrowness of their genetics would mean they would be declared "endangered". If you talk to any geneticist the healthiest, longest lived, most vigorous offspring come from the F1 cross. That is 2 unrelated individuals that are themselves from fairly small gene pools. In other words the ID x TB. Fertility problems are starting to show up in the warmbloods although whether that is due to line breeding or substances given to help them mature early I don't know. Shortened life spans are also starting to become apparent but perhaps this doesn't matter? Do breeders breed for sound 25 year old horses or is it OK for the horse to be unlikely to make beyond their teens? There is no doubt that lack of genetic diversity within an individual causes a generalised lack of well being. Is this the way we want British breeding to go?

And finally something that I am seeing more and more in successful young dressage horses (especially those with German lines) is a long and lax hind pastern. The fetlock touches the ground on every step, even in walk. I do not see this type of movement in any Grand Prix horses. The horses who move like this and have got part way up the grades are often off for months/years with soundness issues. Many disappear before they reach medium level dressage. I don't understand why this conformation is being actively bred for? Yes it is often allied with huge paces but there is so much more to a dressage horse than their paces! Surely we should be breeding for long term soundness as well as talent?


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## Halfstep (17 September 2008)

For a non-breeder interested in dressage horses, this post is among the most fascinating things I've read in a long time. 

I grew up surrounded by Irish show jumpers in the late 1980s/ early 1990s, when the Irish Sports Horse was very successful in SJ-ing. I can also say that OCD was pretty much unheard of among our horses.  Our next door neighbour was the vet to the Irish team, and I used to follow him around like a shadow.  Never even heard the term OCD.  

Now I ride dressage horses in the UK. The majority are European bred, mainly Dutch, German or Danish.  And yes, the term OCD has entered my vocabulary.  I own a very talented horse who is the epitome of the modern dressage horse: big moving, loose, supple, Dutch bred, and, unfortunately, has been operated on for OCD lesions in the hock. 

If I could take the movement of the modern warmblood and the soundness and temperment of the best ISHs, you would have something rather special.  If this is possible.  

Also, when I lived in Ireland, dressage was simply not on the radar.  Now, it is becoming very popular.  I think it is just a matter of time before a top Irish breeder teams up with a decent GP dressage rider to start producing an Irish dressage horse.........


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## stolensilver (17 September 2008)

Halfstep I think you're right about the Irish dressage horse. It is only a matter of time. They can have good movement, they do have good brains and they do tend to be sound. 

The last Advanced class I did had 4 horses in it, two ID x TBs and two warmbloods. The ID x TBs came first and second!


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## lannerch (17 September 2008)

Are there moderators on this forum
to me brit breeder seems to be on the personal vendetor to what I have no idea, surely that kind of behaviour is not encouraged!

My only comment to add is stunning horses janet, particularly the bay, and did those doubters on the authenticity of the irish sports horses  notice the breed of 7 olympic meadal winners in the eventing this year and the  breed of the majority of the british team!


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## Shilasdair (17 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
Are there moderators on this forum
to me brit breeder seems to be on the personal vendetor to what I have no idea, surely that kind of behaviour is not encouraged!


[/ QUOTE ]

There are Admin who can ban users, and delete posts.  I don't think it is to anyone's advantage to do that.  I have found Britbreeder and KenRehill's posts educational; had I not read their contributions, I may have accidentally been tempted to use their services.
Now, forewarned is forearmed, as they say, and I certainly wouldn't want anything to do with such unprofessional people.  On the other hand, although I don't get along with ID blood (they all try to kill me 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 ) my opinions have altered in favour of this breed, and of JanetGeorge.
Free speech rocks!
S


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## JanetGeorge (17 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Are there moderators on this forum
to me brit breeder seems to be on the personal vendetor to what I have no idea, surely that kind of behaviour is not encouraged!


[/ QUOTE ]

There are Admin who can ban users, and delete posts.  I don't think it is to anyone's advantage to do that.  I have found Britbreeder and KenRehill's posts educational; had I not read their contributions, I may have accidentally been tempted to use their services.


[/ QUOTE ]

britbreeder just hates hunting - and therefore me.  I don't care - I've been hated by experts and had the hate mail, the razor blade rigged letters, the lot!  I have developed a remarkably thick skin and find it almost amusing (if pathetic) that people go to such lengths and make total t*ts of themselves in the process.

It would be a shame if britbreeder was banned - particularly when I've gone to the trouble of using her 'ignore user' button - but worse if this threa was deleted as a result as - despite her silly rants - the thread has developed into a very interesting and useful discussion (and attracted some valuable new members along the way!)

And thanks, Shilasdair, for your kind remarks.  Be assured that when an ID tries to kill you, it's nothing personal.  EITHER his sense of humour has got a bit carried away with itself - or he's a frightened little soul trapped in a huge body - and can't quite manage to make his legs work in correct sequence!


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## Tharg (18 September 2008)

So is Aragorn fully retired from breeding?, isn't 19 a bit young or was his fertility going down.


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## delphipuppy (18 September 2008)

Aragorn is actually home with me at the moment and I do not have the facilities or inclination to stand a stallion. He is very fit and well and enjoying being King of the Yard.
My other stallion is in training and Andy Pandy collects from him there.


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## delphipuppy (18 September 2008)

_Yes, the RID is rather more 'refined' today than it was 50 years ago and the 'draught' part IS misleading (although pure-bred RIDs can be fantastic carriage horses you wouldn't want to do too much ploughing behind them!  
	
	
		
		
	


	




)_ 

I was told many years ago by some very knowlegable ID people that in fact the Draught was misspelt and should have read Draft as they were drafted into the army in the early 1900's. This I think has given a misconceived idea of the purpose of this breed.



I was also told that the Irish (being astute businessmen) would breed for the market and the substance of the ID varied all the way through the last century depending on demand, after the need for the cavalary declined some were crossed with draught horses and made heavier when the demand was for meat! I know the breed standards are very strick about white markings and this is due to the Clysdale influence that was notable in certain areas during the meat era!!  It was then lightened up again when the sport horse market started to take hold.

Hope I haven't repeated what others have already said!


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## druid (19 September 2008)

Irish National Dressage Champion 2006 "Claggan Roxy Music" - by Rakish Paddy RID

Nope, definitely not dressage horses.


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## htobago (19 September 2008)

Wowee! He is super!

Love this thread - I'm learning such a lot about IDs - fascinating.

I did wonder if the 'Draught' bit was misleading - the pure IDs I have seen certainly don't look like plowing horses! Maybe a name-change would help their image?

Does anyone have more photos of 'typey' RIDs? I would love to see a few more really good examples, to get a better idea of what the breed standard is? (Sorry - I know you've all got better things to do than educate me - just if you happen to have some nice photos already to hand.)


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## druid (19 September 2008)

She  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 Roxy is a lady!

"Proper" IDs

Foxglen Himself






Blue Rajah


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## spaniel (19 September 2008)

The son of the above Blue Rajah  ID....out of Roma Balinrobe Day ID

Im his very proud Mum..... and he is also being aimed at dressage so we will see wont we!!


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## JanetGeorge (19 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]


Does anyone have more photos of 'typey' RIDs? I would love to see a few more really good examples, to get a better idea of what the breed standard is?  

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I just HAPPENED to be sorting some pics from our mare inspections last Monday - so here are a few RID mares &amp; fillies.  I know what I think, I know what the Inspectors thought (and I didn't necessarily agree in every case 
	
	
		
		
	


	




) - so test your knowledge.  I won't give any hints about age etc. - you be the judge!

Number 1:







Number 2:







Number 3:







Number 4:







Number 5:


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## magic104 (19 September 2008)

Miss Kilbeg





Kildalton Countess






GLIDAWN DIAMOND


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## Shilasdair (19 September 2008)

Ok, I know nothing about IDs or their breed standard, so I am going to have a go, based on which horses look most likely to kill me with a fear factor correlating with how ID I think they are 
	
	
		
		
	


	





Number 1 -  head seems a little coarse, neck short, shoulder upright, long in loins, short in croup, forearm, and gaskin.  I don't think this horse looks likely to murder me.  Fear factor 2/5
Number 2 - nicer head, and neck, with more sloping shoulder.  Bit long in the back, and seems slightly light of bone from what I would expect. The feet are quite small, too, and the gaskin short.  This horse looks as though it may try to attack Shils given half a chance 
	
	
		
		
	


	




. 4/5
Number 3 - Nice head, neck and generally good front end.  Some trouble in the loin/croup area, and quite hollow in the back so I'm guessing an established broodmare.  Comparatively long in all four pasterns, and the hind cannons.
This looks like the producer of Shils killers to me.  5/5
Number 4 - I don't like this one very much, sorry.  It has a nice enough head and neck, but the shoulder looks too straight, and the wither maybe a bit loaded. Strange things going on in this back too - slightly roached back.  Looks very similar to Number 2 but I don't think this will be likely to churn out Shils assassins either. 2/5
Number 5 - Looks much more like the type of horse Shils would avoid...says ID to me.  Bit massive in the front end, not so much behind.  Looks as though it has quite a lot of bone.  Looks like a Shils slayer.  4/5

See, I told you I knew nothing, despite being forced to view IDs in Ireland years ago...Kildalton Gold, could it have been?
S


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## TarrSteps (19 September 2008)

I have no idea whether or not this is a good example of an RID but he is showing dressage . .  
	
	
		
		
	


	





http://www.pairadoxfarm.com/page/page/2683044.htm


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## spaniel (19 September 2008)

If you click further and go onto his info page you find his bloodlines too.


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## alleycat (19 September 2008)

Going to stick my neck out too- I actually like the first horse best of all; think it has very nice limbs- I LIKE the long loin relative to the cannon and was told (&amp; indeed have found) that it suggests a horse that can jump. Is there a downside to it? I think its a young horse and will make up. (Now you'll tell me it 20...) Alright- the neck &amp; shoulder are a bit plain, but still I like it. Shame this isn't video &amp; we could see them move. (Sorry JG- don't want much, do I). 

I once saw a lovely old horse, Paddy's Pride, (dead now) going from ordinary trot into an accelerated trot, like an extra gear, and was so surprised; he was amazing; I'd never seen such a big horse move so lightly. It was like a gliding trot with a little bit of knee action but with masses of power behind it; he really covered the ground. It was far more workmanlike than a purpose bred dressage horse's trot and wouldn't have shown up so well in a still photo. I videoed him but missed the best bit. (Unfortunately the video is still in trapped in yesterday's technology &amp; I can't download it yet.)

There was also a lovely horse called The Do-Ron by Seacrest who was doing well in Dressage &amp; jumping who died only recently, &amp; much too young. Anyone got anything by him?

Edited to say, has anyone scrolled down &amp; seen the half-bred progeny on Tarr-Steps' link? There's a really striking youngster on there...


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## JanetGeorge (20 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
Going to stick my neck out too- I actually like the first horse best of all; think it has very nice limbs- I LIKE the long loin relative to the cannon and was told (&amp; indeed have found) that it suggests a horse that can jump. Is there a downside to it? I think its a young horse and will make up. (Now you'll tell me it 20...) Alright- the neck &amp; shoulder are a bit plain, but still I like it. Shame this isn't video &amp; we could see them move. (Sorry JG- don't want much, do I). 

[/ QUOTE ]

She's a 2 year old - and I like her - although she's the more modern 'type' of ID not favoured by all.  But she graded well for a 2 year old and she CAN move.  And yes, I like a long loin (and fore arm) in relation to length of cannon too.  She is a half-sister to mare number 4 (who is also the more modern 'type' - more sport horse type.)  

They are both daughters of mare number 3 who was a 'Quality Premium' broomare in Ireland and has won two Hornby Premiums here (although Monday's Inspectors didn't like her as well. 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[ QUOTE ]

There was also a lovely horse called The Do-Ron by Seacrest who was doing well in Dressage &amp; jumping who died only recently, &amp; much too young. Anyone got anything by him?


[/ QUOTE ] 

No - but my Northwood Rose (a Hornby Select mare) is his half sister.  She's not pictured here - but number 2 is her daughter!  Rosie is VERY traditional (a mere 15.2 and a little block on legs!)


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## Tharg (20 September 2008)

I like No. 2 best, how did she do in the grading.

   What is a loaded wither?


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## JanetGeorge (20 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
   I like No. 2 best, how did she do in the grading.

   What is a loaded wither? 

[/ QUOTE ]

You have FANTASTIC taste in Irish Draughts IMHO - would you like to join the Inspection panel! 
	
	
		
		
	


	





No. 2 is my darling Maggie - the first pure-bred filly I bred (other than a mare bought in foal which isn't the same!)  She's 4 - has a lovely filly at foot by Kenson's Aragorn.  She's out of my Hornby Select mare Northwood Rose (the half sister to The Do Ron)

She graded as a 2 year old on 122 points - which is a VERY high mark for a 2 year old - Number 1 graded on 114 and I've seen 2 yo's grade on as little as 99  (out of 145)  I was SURE she'd walk the Hornby - she looked FAR better even than as a 2 year old.  But the Inspectors thought differently and marked her 119, which was VERY disappointing indeed - especially as if she'd got just 1 or 2 more points more they could have taken her foal into account for up to 5 marks (125 needed for a Hornby.)

And she's a little cracker!






I think Shils meant a loaded shoulder - which is one with excessive muscle development over the shoulder - it can restrict movement.  

  [ QUOTE ]
No. 4 .... It has a nice enough head and neck, but the shoulder looks too straight, and the wither maybe a bit loaded. Strange things going on in this back too - slightly roached back. Looks very similar to Number 2 but I don't think this will be likely to churn out Shils assassins either. 2/5  

[/ QUOTE ] 

This is Cleo - and her shoulder might be a little straight - although she moves well.  She is a bit lean along her top-line as she has a HUGE filly at foot which is growing like a weed - and being the more 'sporty' type of ID, she's not as easy to keep condition on as your more traditional ID (she's 17 hh at 6 and could easily grow another inch!)  She won't be fully mature until she's 7 - or even 8!  They can change a LOT between 2 and 7 - this is Cleo as a 2 year old when she was 2nd in a VERY strong class at the Irish National Breed Show.







One of the funny things about breeding, though - Cleo throws foals more like you'd expect her mother to throw - and her mother throws foals like Cleo (and Number 1 - Trio.)  Cleo got her first Hornby as a 4 year old, scored badly as a 5 year old, and improved this year as a 6 year old - although again 1 point short of her foal being able to be 'counted'.  Hopefully next year she'll have let down a bit more and I'll be able to keep the condition on her a bit better - this year has been cr*p for that and I won't stuff mares with concentrates in late lactation, it's far too risky for the foal.

 [ QUOTE ]
 Number 5 - Looks much more like the type of horse Shils would avoid...says ID to me. Bit massive in the front end, not so much behind. Looks as though it has quite a lot of bone.   

[/ QUOTE ]

She's a very nice mare - not mine - she came here to foal, be AI'd and be prepared for grading.  She got her 3rd Hornby (128) and is now Hornby Select.  She actually has a good back-end, but could have been carrying at least another 50 pounds of condition to look her best.  I had to restrict her a bit as foalie's tendons contracted badly and I HAD to slow her growth.


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## magic104 (20 September 2008)

SS Welcome to the forum, very interesting posts indeed.  I have really enjoyed reading them.


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## Ciss (20 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, I know nothing about IDs or their breed standard, so I am going to have a go, based on which horses look most likely to kill me with a fear factor correlating with how ID I think they are 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand the kill me mark, so I'll just assess them conformationally as I would if I was mare grading / evaluating  / judging for any studbook/event that takes mares of a variety of breeds and types and assesses them for their potential usefulness in modern sports Elite horse breeding programmes. I have been doing this for about 15 years and across 3 continents so I hope I can provide an independent but informed view on this and I base my classification on the usual breakdown of:

Head studbook. Top 10% of mares (the usual resource from which the most successful graded stallions and top performance horses come)

Main studbook Next 60/705 of mares Top MSB mares are usually as good as HSB mares except that they may not move as straight, be quite as athletic all round or have a conformation fault that stops them from scoring the equivalent of 8/10 (good) in all points. Lower end studbook mares are usually sound but rather more old fashioned, but promising sorts to upgrade from or to produce nice riding club horses when carefully bred from

Prelim Stud Book Mares with either missing pedigrees or too far off the type scale for a modern sports horse to be considered for main. These mares have to be very carefully bred from to ensure that they do not pass on their unimproved type to the next generation. However they will generally be correct in limbs as otherwise they will fail grading completely.

Placed in that international context and with the proviso that photos do not show how straight they move (I presume they do) and that only a personal viewing can show how athletic they are (even videos can't really do that) and bearing in mind that I have deliberately not read any of the follow up posts yet, here are my comments. 

General comments
This assessment has nothing to do with the Futurity and is my own personal opinion. Also as the Elite bit might cause howls etc I will cover myself by saying that any final decsion on such mares would also have to be based on their own competition record and that of their progeny (mares in practically all WBFSH studbooks can be upgraded if this is outstanding) and of course bearing in mind that photos are (i) often misleading and (ii) cannot show the mare in movement in a truly correct way. I am therefore assuming that they do all move straight but obviously I have no way of assessing their natural athleticism and as I have said several times, good tempered mares (which these are) that remain sound but lack natural top class perfomance qualities / athleticism may well be the sort that provide the type of mounts that your average / not very talented/novice rider needs. It is just that upgrading them to 'world beaters' is impossible in less than about three generations and to quote an old saying about trying to do that with such mares 'if I wanted to get there I wouldn't start from here'. 

So here goes, and apologies to anyone's dearest product who feels they have been slighted but the photos were put up, comments were asked for and I can only do it from the experience base I have, helping to develop / continuously improve the standard of horses for the studbooks I know. I have also placed them in class order (1/5 being top and 5/5 bottom) with the proviso that if any of them have a proven competition record over a notable amount of time at a notable level (or have produced progeny that have performed in this way) then that could certainly improve their ranking;

Critiques
[ QUOTE ]
 Number 1 -  head seems a little coarse, neck short, shoulder upright, long in loins, short in croup, forearm, and gaskin.  

[/ QUOTE ]
Neck rather low set in front and could be freer in throat (to allow for flexion in poll). However, this type of neck set can allow a horse to raise its head when assessing the size of a fence so they are often quite clean jumpers. Slightly steep croup (also jumper point) but needs more quality overall for modern sports horse breeding (not SHBGB, I'm talking true WBFSH here ) points. Bottom end of main studbook. 2/5

[ QUOTE ]
Number 2 - nicer head, and neck, with more sloping shoulder.  Bit long in the back, and seems slightly light of bone from what I would expect. The feet are quite small, too, and the gaskin short.  

[/ QUOTE ]
Head too large, strangely lacking in depth in front of girth compared to further back. Short steep croup. Camped out behind and second thighs much too short, cannons too long and hind pasterns upright. Lacking muscle but probably rather immature anyway and more muscle may improve 2nd thigh and overline. Would appear not able to come through enough from behind at present so Prelim Stud Book 4/5

[ QUOTE ]
Number 3 - Nice head, neck and generally good front end.  Some trouble in the loin/croup area, and quite hollow in the back so I'm guessing an established broodmare.  Comparatively long in all four pasterns, and the hind cannons.

[/ QUOTE ]
Better type of broodmare. Modern strong, harmonious sports horse type of mare but camped out behind and back at the knee plus large and flat feet so lower type of main studbook mark (1/5)

[ QUOTE ]
Number 4 - I don't like this one very much, sorry.  It has a nice enough head and neck, but the shoulder looks too straight, and the wither maybe a bit loaded. Strange things going on in this back too - slightly roached back.  

[/ QUOTE ]
Best head of the lot but again camped out behind and back at the knee. Very short second thigh and upright pasterns all road. Looks like could have had sacariliac problem at some time so she may have had a jumping career in the past (if so and her competition record was good this might be taken into account in her assessment but would be unlikely to entirely balance her limb conformational problems) Lower main studbool level 3/5

[ QUOTE ]
Number 5  Bit massive in the front end, not so much behind.  Looks as though it has quite a lot of bone. 

[/ QUOTE ] 
Two different horses. Strong well-muscled front and middle peice but weak behind and actually rtaher straight hind leg compared to others but still sloghtly camped out behind. Flat, large feet. Prelim stud book 5/5

[ QUOTE ]
 See, I told you I knew nothing, despite being forced to view IDs in Ireland years ago...Kildalton Gold, could it have been?S 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

I think this poster knows quite a bit  and any difference of opinion we may have is probably due to the fact that she tends to look at riding horses rather than broodmares and broodmares tend to have either lost (or never did have) the supporting musculature that ridden horse do. OTOH like me she tends to view horses as how fit they are for purpose -- or to be bred from to produce animals that are fitter for purpose -- rather than encouraging people to wait three or four equien generations to get a the result that we are looking for (but I will probably be dead by then anyway).

Apologies again if I have hurt anyone's feelings / punctured their world view happy bubble, but opinions were asked for and I do think that at least a couple of forum members do think that my input -- and the context in which I am able to provide it -- might be of some use here.

Fireproof jacket on now, but do remember that shooting the messenger is not really the solution. OTOH, thinking about why the assessment is the way it is -- and what the mechanism is that fires it (actually the constantly upgrading of FEI requirements for international competitions to be a test of rider ability rather than physical strength/power of horse) could be.


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## Ciss (20 September 2008)

At what level was the chestnut horse in the photo Irish champion? I am assuming something like Elementary as:

1 I have seen very few horses working at top level whose head is the same length at his neck (not even Rusty &lt;ROFL&gt
2 He is obviously working under considerable tension as the angle of the front cannon in extension is much flatter than that of the one in the lateral one behind. In a truely established tension free horse they should be the same (Yes I know they are often not, especially in auction photo trot, but we are talking long-term potential here as those auction trots sell well to the easily impressed but sadly often don't make it/stay sound to the top levels)

[ QUOTE ]
Nope, definitely not dressage horses.  
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, not yet. Flashy mover in front ATM is all that I would say.


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## Maesfen (20 September 2008)

Probably totally wrong but I like 2 and 4 best.  They both, particularly 2, filled my eye!


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## EBB (20 September 2008)

Out of interest I just googled Claggan Roxy Music

http://www.equestrian.co.uk/Dressage/DressageIrelandNationalWi.asp

http://www.eurodressage.com/reports/shows/2006/sep_irishchamps.html


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## cruiseline (20 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]





Irish National Dressage Champion 2006 "Claggan Roxy Music" - by Rakish Paddy RID

Nope, definitely not dressage horses.  
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]
 [ QUOTE ]
At what level was the chestnut horse in the photo Irish champion? I am assuming something like Elementary as:

1 I have seen very few horses working at top level whose head is the same length at his neck (not even Rusty &lt;ROFL&gt
2 He is obviously working under considerable tension as the angle of the front cannon in extension is much flatter than that of the one in the lateral one behind. In a truely established tension free horse they should be the same (Yes I know they are often not, especially in auction photo trot, but we are talking long-term potential here as those auction trots sell well to the easily impressed but sadly often don't make it/stay sound to the top levels)

Quote:
Nope, definitely not dressage horses.   



Sorry, not yet. Flashy mover in front ATM is all that I would say. 


[/ QUOTE ] 

As the rider is wearing top hat and tails, this picture must have been taken when the horse was competing at Advanced or above, in fact, I think I am right in saying this horse competes at GP level.

She is indeed very nice, a lovely type, I wouldn't mind having her in my string.

As for the front leg, hind leg angles, Ciss, you obviously didn't watch much of the Olympics this year, as most of the horses demonstrated a similar trend, but when it is at the `Olympics' it is called expression!!!!!!


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## magic104 (20 September 2008)

Dressage Ireland National Winter Finals
Wednesday, April 19, 2006

Northern riders Laragh Hamilton and Jennifer Somerville won the main classes at the Dressage Ireland National Winter Finals Monday 17th April 2006 at Broadmeadows Equestrian Centre, Ashbourne, County Meath.

Laragh Hamilton from County Antrim won both the Grand Prix and Intermediaire II classes with her thirteen year old chestnut mare Claggan Roxy Music by the Irish Draught stallion Rakish Paddy.

School Principal Jennifer Somerville from Crossgar, County Down took top honours in the Intermediaire I final with her Supreme Edge gelding Mr Bingley.

GRAND PRIX FINAL

1.CLAGGAN ROXY MUSIC;Laragh HAMILTON 65.31%
2.HERITAGE EGANO S; Anne Marie DUNPHY 59.27%

INTERMEDIAIRE II FINAL

1.CLAGGAN ROXY MUSIC;Laragh HAMILTON 62.68%
2.HERITAGE EGANO S; Anne Marie DUNPHY 60.12%
3.OAKENGROVE IDEAL;Sue SMALLMAN 56.59%


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## cruiseline (20 September 2008)

I also like no. 2 and 4, very nice mares.


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## Fahrenheit (20 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
At what level was the chestnut horse in the photo Irish champion? I am assuming something like Elementary as:

1 I have seen very few horses working at top level whose head is the same length at his neck (not even Rusty &lt;ROFL&gt
2 He is obviously working under considerable tension as the angle of the front cannon in extension is much flatter than that of the one in the lateral one behind. In a truely established tension free horse they should be the same (Yes I know they are often not, especially in auction photo trot, but we are talking long-term potential here as those auction trots sell well to the easily impressed but sadly often don't make it/stay sound to the top levels)

[ QUOTE ]
Nope, definitely not dressage horses.  
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, not yet. Flashy mover in front ATM is all that I would say. 

[/ QUOTE ]

I was under the impression that Roxy Music competed at GP level  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 correct me if i'm wrong


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## magic104 (20 September 2008)

She also was Triple Champion Ridden Hunter Mare at RDS Dublin Horse Show August '98. This mare has also qualified for Wembly 2006.


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## Shilasdair (20 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]

I think this poster knows quite a bit  and any difference of opinion we may have is probably due to the fact that she tends to look at riding horses rather than broodmares and broodmares tend to have either lost (or never did have) the supporting musculature that ridden horse do. OTOH like me she tends to view horses as how fit they are for purpose -- or to be bred from to produce animals that are fitter for purpose -- rather than encouraging people to wait three or four equien generations to get a the result that we are looking for (but I will probably be dead by then anyway).


[/ QUOTE ]

Why thank you.  
	
	
		
		
	


	




  You are right, I look at horses with a view to getting on and riding them, so probably don't make enough allowances for changes in musculature in broodmares.
And I know nothing about breeding, and even less about Irish Draughts and their crosses.  In the past, when I worked as a crash test dummy 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 I found Id x Tbs the most unpredictable, difficult rides, and would much rather have a full Tb, or Wb, so I haven't had much to do with them (sorry JanetGeorge, I'm probaby just unlucky).
S


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## stolensilver (20 September 2008)

Ciss I think I know who you are and respect your opinion on bloodlines and stallions. However your comments on Claggan Roxy Music surprised me a great deal with their negativity. To my eyes the photo clearly shows a horse doing a good extended trot with elevation and expression. The hocks have more bend in them for this stage of the stride than most warmbloods exhibit even at major championships!  Just look at the trot photos in this link of Olympic quality horses to see trots that show much more in front than behind. 

http://www.eurodressage.com/reports/shows/2008/08hagen/photo_grandprix.html

You say that you see an "auction trot" which I interpret as being a trot with lots of flash in front but a back and loin and hind leg mechanicism that mean the horse is unable to carry weight behind and will always struggle with collection. I just don't see that at all. The muscling alone on that horse show that it is working at a high level and the push from behind is clear. "Auction trots" have back legs that spaddle along behind the horse, they don't show the flexion and stepping under that this Irish horse shows. Proof of the pudding is that this horse is competing very successfully at Grand Prix and with a young rider on board. In all honesty I have seen far more warmbloods that move out behind than I ever have ID crosses. "Auction trot" itself is a term that comes from Europe from people who have been burned by buying a warmblood with poor mechanics. The term does not come from the UK or Ireland.

Interestingly Roxy's sire Rakish Paddy was an international Grade A showjumper in his own right. Goodness, versatility and ability in first generation Irish Draught crosses! (Sorry, couldn't resist it.  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 ) 

I really do believe that Irish horses can and will become a force to be reckoned with in dressage. They are different from warmbloods just as Spanish horses are different from warmbloods but in the same way a good Irish horse has the ability to stand in any company. There already have been several competing at GP level. Now that dressage is becoming more and more popular I think it is only a matter of time before an outstanding Irish horse is teamed up with an outstanding dressage rider and the combination is able to challenge the best of the warmbloods.


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## spaniel (20 September 2008)

Just a quick post to say a BIG thank you for such a great, interesting, educational and entertaining thread and to wish JG all the best with the boys grading next time,  both are lovely lads and Id be proud to own any of your mares too.


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## Maesfen (20 September 2008)

It's been a great thread,  still going strong after several days with very many views so it must have caught the imagination somewhere!
I'd like to say thank you too, it's been riveting and I've learnt so much about the Irish draught; thank you one and all.
Perhaps it's not beyond the realms of possibility that other breed breeders could do similar threads on their own breeds; it would be fascinating to learn about breeds from the people that actually know them as opposed to just out of a book.


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## htobago (20 September 2008)

I agree - excellent thread! Thank you so much Janet for posting all those photos (and to the others who posted super photos of IDs) - I now have a much better idea of the breed type/standard.

Isn't this a lovely forum? I ask a totally numpty-novice question and immediately everyone rushes to educate and enlighten me - and it prompts a fascinating exchange of expert views! 

A certain person on here recently told me I should keep out of discussions on subjects on which I had no knowledge - that I had nothing to contribute and only made myself look stupid. I replied that I was here to learn, not to show off, didn't mind looking stupid and would continue to ask naive questions, as they often seemed to provoke interesting debates.

QED! 
	
	
		
		
	


	





I am still, however, totally unqualified to judge IDs, so will not even attempt to comment on the photos - especially as even the experts seem to disagree quite dramatically in their assessments of these horses!


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## htobago (20 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
Ciss I think I know who you are and respect your opinion on bloodlines and stallions. However your comments on Claggan Roxy Music surprised me a great deal with their negativity. To my eyes the photo clearly shows a horse doing a good extended trot with elevation and expression. The hocks have more bend in them for this stage of the stride than most warmbloods exhibit even at major championships!  Just look at the trot photos in this link of Olympic quality horses to see trots that show much more in front than behind. 

http://www.eurodressage.com/reports/shows/2008/08hagen/photo_grandprix.html



[/ QUOTE ]

My goodness you are right SS - I'm no expert but as far as I can see, only one horse in this link (Sterntaler) is showing as good action behind as Claggan Roxy Music!


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## Ciss (20 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
 Ciss I think I know who you are and respect your opinion on bloodlines and stallions. However your comments on Claggan Roxy Music surprised me a great deal with their negativity. To my eyes the photo clearly shows a horse doing a good extended trot with elevation and expression. The hocks have more bend in them for this stage of the stride than most warmbloods exhibit even at major championships!  Just look at the trot photos in this link of Olympic quality horses to see trots that show much more in front than behind. 

http://www.eurodressage.com/reports/shows/2008/08hagen/photo_grandprix.html


[/ QUOTE ] 

OK, bearing in mind that the horse concerned is apparently doing GP -- but ca 65% max at national level is not really what you would call impressive by international standards I had a look at the photos in the link and would like to make the following comments -- and to emphasise that I am looking at suppleness, flexion and engagement regardless of breed or type (ie I do know some warmbloods that look/perform/apparently move like the ID mare in question but I'm not keen on them either as it is not what I look for to convey the right indication of correctly established stages of training building on superior natural talent and biodynamic construction for long-term soundness.

Not all of the horses that were apparently showing extended trot were actually moving on a straight line as quite a few of them -- including Gachino, Rambo, Vincent, Rigoletto (loved him ) and Charatan -- were doing lateral work where the angle of the front leg is more likely to be a coping measure for a temporary loos of balance than a tension due to lack of flexion.

Of the remainder:

(i) we all know that Satchmo can be very tense and this was probably one of the occassions when he expressed it in the angle at the front (just wonder what the mark was for that movement though)
(ii) I agree that Whisper and Maksymilian are both showing non-parallel movement, but the fact that they are not doing it doesn't mean it isn't important
(ii) I agree that on these pix Steinhaler is much the best mover and his cannon bone angles are the same even though the front leg is considerably higher and this is what is really rewquired in this movement (OTOH, he did score 10 for gaits and that is probably the difference )
(iii) Andretti does show almost parallel cannons with the front leg a little higher so let's hope Laura B can maintain this in the future whilst Leibling definetly needs to show more flexion in the knee (a symptom of the tension that Carl implies he has in this week's HH, perhaps Carl will be able to resolve/improve that)
(iv) Pirosschka completely lacks any power or muscle structure to support this level of extension hence the rather unimpressive outline
(v) Donna Carrera's photo must be a bad one as age appears to be loosing balance and not coming through from behind.

Perhaps again those are pretty negative comments but we are talking top level here and that is probably where the issue lies.

[ QUOTE ]
 You say that you see an "auction trot" which I interpret as being a trot with lots of flash in front but a back and loin and hind leg mechanicism that mean the horse is unable to carry weight behind and will always struggle with collection. I just don't see that at all. The muscling alone on that horse show that it is working at a high level and the push from behind is clear. "Auction trots" have back legs that spaddle along behind the horse, they don't show the flexion and stepping under that this Irish horse shows. 

[/ QUOTE ] 

I agree with yiou about what an auction trot normally looks like but one of the chief charateristics is that there is little or not flexion shown when in extreme extension and I am afraid that for all the national success this horse has had that is still much too evident. That is why the mare (what a masculine looking mare as well, I thought she was a stallion!) is still probably getting the scores she is rather than higher ones.

[ QUOTE ]
 Proof of the pudding is that this horse is competing very successfully at Grand Prix and with a young rider on board. 

[/ QUOTE ] 

But the pudding still has a lot of cooking to be done before it becomes the equine equal to a Raymond Blanc desert, which is what a top class GP Special / Kur should be viewed as in this context 

[ QUOTE ]
 In all honesty I have seen far more warmbloods that move out behind than I ever have ID crosses.

[/ QUOTE ] 

Thats certainly true but then far more warmbloods compete in higher level (or probably any) dressage (apart from eventing dressage) than do IDs or ID crosses but just beciase many warmbloods do it certainly doesn't make it right in any way.


[ QUOTE ]
  "Auction trot" itself is a term that comes from Europe from people who have been burned by buying a warmblood with poor mechanics. The term does not come from the UK or Ireland.

[/ QUOTE ] 

I did of course know that, and I know what the purpose of it is but that doesn't mean (again) that other breeds cannot show it and that it cannot be just as undesirable in a young horse in any non warmblood breed as a basis for long-term international success and soundness.

[ QUOTE ]
 Interestingly Roxy's sire Rakish Paddy was an international Grade A showjumper in his own right. Goodness, versatility and ability in first generation Irish Draught crosses! (Sorry, couldn't resist it.  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 ) 

[/ QUOTE ] 

That is interesting as normally sj sires are used to add knee bend in horses that tend to have a big auction trot in their dam lines. Perhaps he had rather a lot of TB in him (Rakish Paddy I mean) and/or the dam's mare did and togther that has inhinbited the transmission of the trot flexion --- although it would improve the quality of the walk and canter marks, where many of the multipliers lie, and that in turn could be the reason why she has been able to progress to GP. There are, after all 3 paces in dressage, which is also where the auction trotters (who often cannot walk and canter) can fall down at higher levels.

[ QUOTE ]
 I really do believe that Irish horses can and will become a force to be reckoned with in dressage. They are different from warmbloods just as Spanish horses are different from warmbloods but in the same way a good Irish horse has the ability to stand in any company. There already have been several competing at GP level. Now that dressage is becoming more and more popular I think it is only a matter of time before an outstanding Irish horse is teamed up with an outstanding dressage rider and the combination is able to challenge the best of the warmbloods. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Well time will tell and as it takes about 5 years for even the most talented horses to make it to a good established GP level it could be quite  long time, especially as mots established riders (the ones who regularly train and compete GP horses successfully) tend to select from bloodlines that have already been there, done that and bought the T shirt so that they do not waste too much time on hoprses that may fall besdie the wayside. This means that the take up of Iberian breeds (both as trainee GP horses outside the Iberian peninsula and as bloodline sources of possible new dressage talent) has been very slow compared to how well they have shown in international classes over the past 8 years (and these are breeds that have a proven natural aptitude for accpeting dressage training developed over 100s of years remember) so what you predict may happen but if it does it will almost be of an even slower progression than that of the spanish and portuguese breeds. 

At least that is what I think but then what do I know? &lt;ROFL&gt;


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## JanetGeorge (20 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
So here goes, and apologies to anyone's dearest product who feels they have been slighted but the photos were put up, comments were asked for 

[/ QUOTE ]

Um - actually, conformation critiques were NOT asked for - the pics were put up in response to htobago's question about ID 'type'.  I don't mind my mares being hatcheted on a public forum (much!) but I would have preferred if comments were made that:
1) did NOT judge them on WB standards - they are RID mares and comparing them to WB breeds is comparing apples to oranges.
2) took a little more account of their ages - and the fact that all with the exception of the 2 year old are nearing the end of lactation and rearing BIG foals, which naturally takes its toll on toplines and rear-ends (unless you want to risk screwing up the foals by shoving vast quatities of stud mix into the mares.)
3) recognised that the pics were opportunistic snaps taken by my equine degree student who was trying to stay oujt of the way of the graders - angles  (vertical and horizontal) can be misleading - as can the fact they are standing on sloping concrete (most heads high) which makes the front-end look 'bigger' than the back end.


[ QUOTE ]

Neck rather low set in front and could be freer in throat (to allow for flexion in poll). However, this type of neck set can allow a horse to raise its head when assessing the size of a fence so they are often quite clean jumpers. Slightly steep croup (also jumper point) but needs more quality overall for modern sports horse breeding (not SHBGB, I'm talking true WBFSH here ) points. Bottom end of main studbook. 2/5

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm actually surprised that an immature RID filly would make it to the low end of a sport horse main studbook - maybe that's a thought - she's a bit too 'modern' for some ID judges! 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[ QUOTE ]
Number 2 - nicer head, and neck, with more sloping shoulder.  Bit long in the back, and seems slightly light of bone from what I would expect. The feet are quite small, too, and the gaskin short.  

[/ QUOTE ]

She has 9.25 inches of bone which is plenty for a 16 hh, 4 yo RID - she'll mature to about 9.5 inches (which is more than some RID stallions have, more's the pity!)


[ QUOTE ]
Number 3 
Better type of broodmare. Modern strong, harmonious sports horse type of mare but camped out behind and back at the knee plus large and flat feet so lower type of main studbook mark (1/5)

[/ QUOTE ]

Definitely not back at the knee though I'd agree that her feet are a little on the large side (although that is GOOD in IDs - the flat NOT so good.)  Not sure what you mean by 'camped out behind'.  She IS a 'quality premium mare' in Ireland AND has 2 Hornby's in the UK so I'll probably not worry too much about how she compares to a WB.

[ QUOTE ]
Number 4 
Best head of the lot but again camped out behind and back at the knee. Very short second thigh and upright pasterns all road. Looks like could have had sacariliac problem at some time so she may have had a jumping career in the past 

[/ QUOTE ]

Definitely not back at the knee - not standing well - and no jumping career - she's 6 and was lightly backed at 3 before being put in foal.  And never had a sacro-iliac problem -she's not carrying much top-line as big foal has pulled her down a bit. And she won't be 'mature' for another two years.  Her only competitive outing was 2nd in a very strong 2 yo class at the Irish National Breed Show!

[ QUOTE ]

Two different horses. Strong well-muscled front and middle peice but weak behind and actually rtaher straight hind leg compared to others but still sloghtly camped out behind. Flat, large feet. Prelim stud book 5/5

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the angle deceives you - she's got a good back end although again lightened off with large foal - I had to restrict mare's feeding a bit as foal grew too fast and tendons contracted above the knee (she's fine now.)  Mare got her 3rd Hornby and is now a Hornby Select mare.  Again, big feet are GOOD in the ID - and they're definitely not flat.

[ QUOTE ]
Apologies again if I have hurt anyone's feelings / punctured their world view happy bubble, but opinions were asked for 

[/ QUOTE ]

Again - actually they weren't (as stated earlier) but interesting anyway.  
	
	
		
		
	


	




  I know my mares' faults and strengths - none of them is 'perfect' even as RID but JUDGED as RIDs - rather than as WBs/sport horses - they're all at the higher end of the scale.


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## JanetGeorge (20 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]

That is interesting as normally sj sires are used to add knee bend in horses that tend to have a big auction trot in their dam lines. Perhaps he had rather a lot of TB in him (Rakish Paddy I mean) and/or the dam's mare did and togther that has inhinbited the transmission of the trot flexion ---  

[/ QUOTE ]

Rakish Paddy is old RID bloodlines - back to Galty Boy and Clonfert on the sire side and Irish Mail on the dam's side.  There are a few holes in his pedigree 3 generations back on the dam lines but they are more likely to be AID/unregistered Ids than TBs.

Claggan Roxy Music's dam is a TB mare (Urcher Beauty).  Rakish Paddy only sired 197 registered foals in his career - many of them decent showjumpers although his IHB listing only includes details of about 25 of them - and Roxy Music's accomplishments are not listed.  This is one of the most frustrating things about RID sires - their contribution to the modern sport horse is so often unrecorded!


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## GlamourDol (20 September 2008)

Quite glad im not sat on the bay during those Yee Haa moments. 
	
	
		
		
	


	





Janet, bit of a random one, but have you ever bred arabs?


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## Ciss (20 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]


Again - actually they weren't (as stated earlier) but interesting anyway.  
	
	
		
		
	


	




  I know my mares' faults and strengths - none of them is 'perfect' even as RID but JUDGED as RIDs - rather than as WBs/sport horses - they're all at the higher end of the scale. 

[/ QUOTE ]

The very reason I did this was becuase there does seem to be some misconception (not, I have to say very often corrected by the OP) that the ID is what wb studbooks should be looking for to make their products more user friendly to lower level riders. Apart from ignoring the fact that many less athletic looking animals produced by wb and sports horse stud books outside Ireland do actually have the qualities that these riders need I did feel it was vital to point out how different even 'modern' ID's are to the requirements of modern successful warmblood and general sports horse studbooks and how hard it would be to make the leap in say three generations let alone one.

I understand your point about lost Irish pedigrees too, but other studbooks never allowed this to happen and it may be sad that ID and ID X breeders of today are having to pay the price when it comes to inclusion in breeding studbooks outside Ireland that require at least (say) 5 proven generations. OTOH, I have to say that I think that had the KWPN considered those Irish mares that it has graded in as Basic with no pedigree (which was mentioned in an earlier post in this thread) could be viewed as potential dam lines for future stallions within a reasonablenumber of generations then they would have moved hell and high water to find out how they were bred. But they didn't and I have to say I think that says it all.

BTW, the comment on the first horse was not mine (I do not use the word gaskins but I agree with the comment) so if you were trying to pick on me for all the comments it went a bit wrong there.

OTOH, I think you would have to credit me with a bit more knowledge of broodmares than to mistake loss of condition through lactation with actual skeletal construction -- like you I am no lover of mares carrying too much condition anyway -- but addinga  few pounds on to the quarters does not make a short, pointed or flat croup into a long or powerful one as no muscling can be correct where the bones are not so.

Sorry but you did raise the point of condition and you must realsie that I regularly see mares of all shapes and sizes -- and in all stages of pregnancy or none -- so the thought that someone thinks that superficial condition would make any impression on me I find rather amusing, but also sad as it does show that the prevalance for show ring condition might still be thought important when grading a mare (though not I ahve to say to the ID studbook as the OP makes clear).

We are all here on this forum to hopefully learn from each other. I now know rather more about what is -- and what is not -- required in an ID and ID X in order to grade. I may not agree with it but at least I know where the studbook and its graders are coming to within the context in which I view horses.

HTH


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## stolensilver (20 September 2008)

Hmmm Ciss so there are excuses for each and every photo of a warmblood GP horse not having the cannon bone angles parallel but on the basis of just one photo you can rate the Irish mare as inferior? I don't agree and don't think you have done yourself any favours with that post. IMHO if you are going to use exclusion clauses they should be applied equally to all. The Irish mare has a young rider on her back. How much higher might her score have been if Carl had been riding her? Or Isabelle? 65% at GP with international judges (one was from Germany) is good! It would be in the top 5 at many World Cup qualifiers.

Regarding riders choosing bloodlines that are successful are you talking about riders from Europe? The UK dressage riders I know are all totally uninterested in bloodlines, they just look at the horse in front of them. If it is a good horse they are interested. It could be a donkey x zebra but if it moved and had a good brain they would consider buying and training it. Perhaps this is why the UK has had some "unusual" dressage horses such as Arun Tor with his Cleveland Bay blood or Mr President with his unknown breeding?

I do agree that at the moment warmbloods are the commonest breed that you see in GP dressage. What I don't agree with is that Irish Draught crosses are no hopers in dressage. There are some very talented ID x TBs out there with great ability. One of my favourites is M.J. Fine Art. He is schooling GP at home and highly rated by Steven Clarke the "O" judge. He's won at Premier leagues in PSG and Inter 1. And his owner and rider is an amateur. He is the first horse she's trained to GP. The best part is that M.J. Fine Art is a stallion. Perhaps one of his offspring will be the one to challenge the warmbloods in international dressage competition?


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## stolensilver (20 September 2008)

You asked about Irish mares being graded into the Dutch books. I've just spent half an hour looking for the website that spells this out very clearly but it is no longer there. It used to be on Stallions Direct and I think it was in the pedigree of the stallion Jazz Dancer (although I may be remembering that wrongly). The damline on that website said it was an irish showjumping mare who was graded with the KWPN based on her competition record but they only let her into the KWPN book as a mare of unknown breeding because Irish blood is not allowed!!! That is the reason that you won't officially find any Irish mares in the KWPN. Irish Draught is not warmblood and therefore officially cannot be accepted. So they lose the papers but accept the horses.


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## Shilasdair (20 September 2008)

I am sorry, JanetGeorge, I did not mean to offend by my comments (some of which you attributed to Ciss), but you did say;

 <font color="blue">  'Well I just HAPPENED to be sorting some pics from our mare inspections last Monday - so here are a few RID mares &amp; fillies. I know what I think, I know what the Inspectors thought (and I didn't necessarily agree in every case ) - so test your knowledge. I won't give any hints about age etc. - you be the judge!' </font> 

So I did try to guess which ones were considered truer to type by the Inspectors, despite my complete lack of knowledge of ID breed standards which I pointed out.  
I have no hidden agenda, no idea which were yours, what ages they were or anything about them, so if I have made errors in my guesses, they were through a genuine lack of knowledge of all things Irish Draughty, rather than an attempt to slight your breeding stock.
S


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## stolensilver (20 September 2008)

This is M.J. Fine Art. He's just as nice in the flesh. Edited to add what is interesting about this stallion is that he is 3rd generation IDSH x IDSH.


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## Maesfen (20 September 2008)

Here are his details too.  I agree, he is a lovely horse and is on my short list for next year.  Very handy as he's only four mile away!
http://mjsportshorses.co.uk/welcome.html


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## JanetGeorge (20 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]

The very reason I did this was becuase there does seem to be some misconception (not, I have to say very often corrected by the OP) that the ID is what wb studbooks should be looking for to make their products more user friendly to lower level riders.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's never been suggested by me - and I haven't actually seen anyone advocating it.  The IDSH(GB) doesn't accept sport horse registrations from horses with European WB breeding.  The Irish Horse Board allows almost ANYTHING into the ISH as long as they are 'approved' by the IHB.  And I see no particular reason why WB stud books SHOULD introduce ID blood - although they do mix and match from almost anywhere too. 

[ QUOTE ]
 OTOH, I have to say that I think that had the KWPN considered those Irish mares that it has graded in as Basic with no pedigree (which was mentioned in an earlier post in this thread) could be viewed as potential dam lines for future stallions within a reasonable number of generations then they would have moved hell and high water to find out how they were bred. But they didn't and I have to say I think that says it all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually it says nothing other than that the Irish were pretty bad at keeping records. A friend of mine bought a mare - fully passported in Ireland with a complete 3 generation pedigree -  eligible RID.  When it was DNA'd, it was NOT by the stallion it was meant to be by and strenuous efforts have failed to determine which stallion the mare was actually by!  It couldn't be graded RID.  So if a mare whose passport shows supposedly all her breeding can't be tracked, what chance would the KWPN have of tracking mares whose breeding was genuinely unknown?

But it seems the KWPN doesn't really care what breed a horse is as long as it fits their requirements.  I have a WBxISH  by a KWPN graded stallion who is actually pure Selle Francais.

[ QUOTE ]
OTOH, I think you would have to credit me with a bit more knowledge of broodmares than to mistake loss of condition through lactation with actual skeletal construction -- like you I am no lover of mares carrying too much condition anyway -- but addinga  few pounds on to the quarters does not make a short, pointed or flat croup into a long or powerful one as no muscling can be correct where the bones are not so.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're AMAZINGLY clever if you can judge a horse so comprehensively from one snapshot.  Most experienced judges I know would want to look at a horse from several angles before condemning it out of hand (particularly if they were not familiar with the breed standard!)

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry but you did raise the point of condition and you must realsie that I regularly see mares of all shapes and sizes 

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually - all I KNOW about you is your H&amp;H username - and the fact you're prepared to declare you know FAR more about Irish Draughts than the experienced ID judges who graded these mares!  And several of them have been assessed 3 or 4 times by 3/4 different teams (of 3) Inspectors.   And - with one or two exceptions - the scoring has been remarkably consistent.  I hope anyone reading this doesn't take YOUR word that my mares are cr*p (because they're not!)


 [ QUOTE ]
I am sorry, JanetGeorge, I did not mean to offend by my comments (some of which you attributed to Ciss)  

[/ QUOTE ] 

You didn't offend, Shilasdair, not least because you made it clear you were giving impressions of which ones appealed and why rather than passing jugement as an 'expert'.  As I said, I DID post them in response to htobago's question about 'types' of RID rather than for detailed conformation critique.  And on that point: the minimum scored for 'type' (out of 25) was 19 on the older mares (can't remember the filly's score but it wouldn't have been MUCH below that.)  

I can't remember ALL the individual scores (sheets haven't come back yet) but in past years, scores for type were: mare 2 - 22;  mare 3 - 23 (twice) - but 19 this year as Inspectors were somewhat biased towards 'traditional'; and mare 4 - 20 and 22 (only 19 this year - same reason!)


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## htobago (20 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]


 I know my mares' faults and strengths - none of them is 'perfect' even as RID but JUDGED as RIDs - rather than as WBs/sport horses - they're all at the higher end of the scale. 

[/ QUOTE ]

This is fascinating! There are always endless arguments and heated debates in the Arab-breeding world about 'type vs conformation' - the relative importance of type and conformation in judging, breeding, etc.

To me, putting it simply, good basic confomation is what makes any horse (Arab, ID, WB, whatever) a good, functional, sound, rideable, athletic horse. Wheres type is what makes that horse a good example of its breed - what makes it instantly recognizable as a 'typical' Arab, ID, Trakehner, Hannoverian, etc. 

Every 'breed standard' description I have ever read includes the essentials of good basic riding-horse conformation - all the obvious fundamental things such well laid back, sloping shoulder; short cannons; strong back; deep girth; etc., etc. 

So surely the principles of good basic riding-horse conformation should, give or take a few minor details and variations, apply to all horses? And one should therefore be able to judge an Arab, ID or whatever according to those principles, as a riding horse, even without expert knowledge of, say, Arab or ID 'type'?

I would not expect most people on here to be experts on Arab type, or able to judge it, but I would expect many of you to be able to assess my horse's conformation - although as in this case, I would expect people's assessments to differ, and for them to disagree!

Even if I were familiar with and knowledgeable about IDs, I would find it very hard to judge the conformation of Janet's horses from these photos, which as she points out are just amateur snapshots, where the angles and so on can give a misleading impression.

As Janet says, all I asked for was some photos to give me an idea of ID 'type'. So now I would like to ask, how much importance is given to 'type' in the grading assessments of ID horses? And what exactly would judges/evaluators be looking for - what are the key characteristics of a 'typey' ID?


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## JanetGeorge (20 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
This is M.J. Fine Art. He's just as nice in the flesh. Edited to add what is interesting about this stallion is that he is 3rd generation IDSH x IDSH.



[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure that he is.  According to the stud website he is by Magnus out of Fire Queen.  According to the IDHS database he is by 'unknown' out of Fire Queen (by Snowford Stoker RID out of an unknown mare)  Can't find anything to suggest what Magnus was - nothing apparent on All-breed.  M J Fine Art was graded onto the Sport Horse Register on the strength of his maternal RID grand-sire.

But he IS a stunning stallion!


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## TomReed (21 September 2008)

JanetGeorge is correct regarding the KWPN and Irish bloodlines.  

Although most of my mares are registered by the KWPN, various German studbooks, or the AES, I have several ISH mares.  These ISH mares have produced foals by my (now deceased) KWPN sire Ekstein that are registered in the KWPN foal book. These ISH mares have also produced foals by my Holsteiner stallion Condios, my SF stallion Desir du Chateau, and some outside German dressage stallions (e.g., Londonderry, Don Laurie, and Rubicell) that are registered in the KWPN's Register A. (As a side note, the ISH mares bred to German dressage sires are ISH in passport only: they have no Irish blood in their pedigrees. Despite the one GP dressage horse mentioned in this thread, using Irish blood in a dressage breeding program is a futile exercise.)

That said, the KWPN has not approved stallions with ID blood because they are concerned about how the modern type they are trying to create will be diminished by ISH or ID blood. I do not believe this is an official policy (meaning I do not believe it is written in a document) but the former head of the KWPN's stallion inspection committtee told me about this some years ago.


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## stolensilver (21 September 2008)

Janet my comment about MJ Fine Art being 3rd generation IDSH comes from talking to his owner. I guess she was using IDSH loosely meaning horses with ID and TB blood in them.

Tom what do you base your comment "using Irish blood in a dressage breeding programme is futile" upon?


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## JanetGeorge (21 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]

As Janet says, all I asked for was some photos to give me an idea of ID 'type'. So now I would like to ask, how much importance is given to 'type' in the grading assessments of ID horses? And what exactly would judges/evaluators be looking for - what are the key characteristics of a 'typey' ID? 

[/ QUOTE ]

WELL - there's the question.  'Type &amp; character' are worth 25 points of a maximum of 145.  Scoring less than 15 for type is automatic failureFeet, foreleg, hindleg &amp; action are each worth 20, and head &amp; neck, shoulder, barrel &amp; back, and hindquarters are each worth 10.  

For grading, the mark required (for a mare) is ABOUT 100+ (depending mainly on age - a filly graded at 2 or 3 might be graded on a lower mark if they think the shortcomings are down to immaturity) but a score of less than 10 for feet, foreleg, or hindleg is possible failure, and 10 or less in two of those is definite failure - even if the total marks come to more than 100.

For a Hornby Premium, a mare must score 125 OR score a minimum of 120 AND have an exceptional foal which the Inspectors can - at their discretion - allow up to 5 marks for.

Type &amp; character is defined in the breed standard as:

"TYPE &amp; CHARACTER
The Irish Draught Horse is an active, short-shinned, powerful horse with substance and quality. It is proud of bearing, deep of girth and strong of back and quarters. Standing over a lot of ground, it has an exceptionally strong and sound constitution. It has an intelligent and gentle nature and is noted for its docility and sense."

Obviously interpretations can vary - the more 'traditional' type is shorter and stockier, the more modern type is taller and somewhat more elegant, while still staying within the broad definition.


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## amandaco2 (21 September 2008)

i love IDs and i think the pics at the start of the tread showing her boys having fun in the school are great and enjoyed them very much!they look really healthy and i think they are very very nice horses!and they do look as if they can shift and certainly have lovely presence.
there was been alot of learning reading through this tread(and no im not sad staying up, im meant to be at work LOL) there is so much i dont know about breeding so its been informative (for the most part)
there are obviously some very knowledgable people on here!
ive got a WB and an ISH(blue rajah lines) and i like both my girls equally.my ISH mare has given me so much,she got me to medium level before injury and although quite fizzy to ride/handle has been a little gem temperment wise 
	
	
		
		
	


	




anyway good luck with the gradings,although im SURE you wont need it!


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## Ciss (21 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
 I'm not sure that he is.  According to the stud website he is by Magnus out of Fire Queen.  According to the IDHS database he is by 'unknown' out of Fire Queen (by Snowford Stoker RID out of an unknown mare)  Can't find anything to suggest what Magnus was - nothing apparent on All-breed.  

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting and I'm not surprised you can't find out anything about him as the only Magnus I have come across in the past 20 years or so is an ungraded *Hannoverian* stallion of that name that stood in Cornwall at the Trago stud for a couple of years. I just thought (as anyone with a background in studbooks where stallions tend to come from generations of proven or graded bloodlines would do) that he was a TB stallion that I had never heard of -- or an RID of course in view of his ISH graded status.

[ QUOTE ]
 M J Fine Art was graded onto the Sport Horse Register on the strength of his maternal RID grand-sire. 

[/ QUOTE ]

But also hopefully becuase of his sports horse qualities and his movement 

[ QUOTE ]
 But he IS a stunning stallion! 

[/ QUOTE ]

And having seen him at the Burghley Stallion Parade where a special section was organised to emphasise the modern Irish influence on *eventing* breeding I suppose I should have realised which Magnus we were probably talking about in the commentary. Nothing comes from out of the blue you know &lt;ROFL&gt;


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## Ciss (21 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
 Despite the one GP dressage horse mentioned in this thread, using Irish blood in a dressage breeding program is a futile exercise.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Listen to the words of someone who has years of experience breeding top class ISHs for a world wide market. If he thinks its a pretty futile exercise then ...



[/ QUOTE ] That said, the KWPN has not approved stallions with ID blood because they are concerned about how the modern type they are trying to create will be diminished by ISH or ID blood. I do not believe this is an official policy (meaning I do not believe it is written in a document) but the former head of the KWPN's stallion inspection committtee told me about this some years ago. 

[/ QUOTE ]

My arguments completely Tom -- and something they do still seem to keep too, otherwise those mares would presumably be much more welcome.


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## JanetGeorge (21 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
  (As a side note, the ISH mares bred to German dressage sires are ISH in passport only: they have no Irish blood in their pedigrees. Despite the one GP dressage horse mentioned in this thread, using Irish blood in a dressage breeding program is a futile exercise.)


[/ QUOTE ]

Yep - it's a bit of a bummer - the number of ISH horses these days that AREN'T ISH - they're just Irish born KWPN, Hannoverian, etc. etc.  Still, it means that all those English people who USED to go to Ireland to buy 'proper' ISH youngsters are now buying them in England!  Let's face it, there are more people who want nice quality all-rounders/hunters/low-level (or high level) eventers, or low level dressage horses that they can also have FUN on than there are people looking for Olympic potential dressage horses.


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## htobago (21 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Within the purebreds today, there is still a division of 'type' - the 'traditional' type (mares 15-2 to 16 hh with 9 inches or more of bone and built like a brick outhouse!) and the more modern type - a little taller, lighter of bone and more 'refined'.  Some Irish Draught breeders think we have already gone too far away from the traditional type.



[/ QUOTE ]

I've been to have a little fossick around on the ID website, looking at the details of the breed standard and so on. Then came back to this thread as I remembered you making a comment about changing 'type' in IDs - just managed to find it again (see above).

The breed standard details didn't really tell me very much - most of it was just describing good basic conformation, not really anything distinctive about IDs.

But your comment here is interesting - the shift towards a 'taller, lighter, more refined' type seems to be happening in a number of breeds, not just the ID. Much the same shift has happened in Arab breeding, and from what I can gather, in WB breeding as well. 

I don't know enough about any other breeds, but perhaps those who do can tell me if the same shift is happening with, say, native pony breeds and/or among breeders of Show Hunters/Show Hacks/Riding Ponies, etc? I've heard the odd remark here and there suggesting that this is the case - so I'm wondering if this is some kind of universal move towards lighter, finer types?

And if so, what is this about? Why is it happening? 

Sorry if I'm being a pain with all these questions!


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## Ciss (21 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
 I think you're AMAZINGLY clever if you can judge a horse so comprehensively from one snapshot.  Most experienced judges I know would want to look at a horse from several angles before condemning it out of hand (particularly if they were not familiar with the breed standard!)

[/ QUOTE ]

And hopefully look at it moving both loose and in hand and in all three paces if possible and look at it loose jumping and examione its pedigree and progeny as well I would think. But you only gave us one photo of each mare (you now say chance snapshots taken by a student) and deliberately did not tell us their ages or scores becuase you wanted us to guess how they did. Now you complain because that was what we did and that we did not take their ages into account. You can't have it all ways Janet &lt;sigh&gt;.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sorry but you did raise the point of condition and you must realsie that I regularly see mares of all shapes and sizes 

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Actually - all I KNOW about you is your H&amp;H username - and the fact you're prepared to declare you know FAR more about Irish Draughts than the experienced ID judges who graded these mares!  

[/ QUOTE ]

No. I NEVER assessed them as ID mares because that is not what I assess mares for and I made that quite clear from the start. I used internationally accepted WBFSH-based criteria to show why they are not sports horse type mares -- so in a way I suppose I was assessing them as IDs as well as it seems that a good sports horse mare is most definitely (according to you) not what the ID inspectors want.

[ QUOTE ]
 And several of them have been assessed 3 or 4 times by 3/4 different teams (of 3) Inspectors.   And - with one or two exceptions - the scoring has been remarkably consistent.  

[/ QUOTE ]
Why do they need to be looked at more than once? What they call in Europe their fundament (physical structure / phenotype) won't change much after they are 3 years old -- or at least if it does a competent breed judge should be able to predict what the finished mature product would be -- and their genoype certainly won't change, so apart from assessing their work under saddle (not the case with any of these mares I gather) or their progeny (who should be assessed separately anyway) I cannot see the point. And there is even less point if the grading panel changes every year as consistency of approach must surely be the key to the whole method.

[ QUOTE ]
I hope anyone reading this doesn't take YOUR word that my mares are cr*p (because they're not!)

[/ QUOTE ]
Never said they were crap, just not sports horses -- but you don't want them to be that anyway so you should have been pleased with my comments as they supported what you want to do in your breeding programme. As far as directing people as to what to think I believe that those who know me on the forum -- and perhaps even more especially those who don't -- will look at what has been illustrated and commented on by all concerned and make up their own minds based on their own breeding goals.

You can ask for no more.


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## htobago (21 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

As Janet says, all I asked for was some photos to give me an idea of ID 'type'. So now I would like to ask, how much importance is given to 'type' in the grading assessments of ID horses? And what exactly would judges/evaluators be looking for - what are the key characteristics of a 'typey' ID? 

[/ QUOTE ]

WELL - there's the question.  'Type &amp; character' are worth 25 points of a maximum of 145.  Scoring less than 15 for type is automatic failureFeet, foreleg, hindleg &amp; action are each worth 20, and head &amp; neck, shoulder, barrel &amp; back, and hindquarters are each worth 10.  

For grading, the mark required (for a mare) is ABOUT 100+ (depending mainly on age - a filly graded at 2 or 3 might be graded on a lower mark if they think the shortcomings are down to immaturity) but a score of less than 10 for feet, foreleg, or hindleg is possible failure, and 10 or less in two of those is definite failure - even if the total marks come to more than 100.

For a Hornby Premium, a mare must score 125 OR score a minimum of 120 AND have an exceptional foal which the Inspectors can - at their discretion - allow up to 5 marks for.

Type &amp; character is defined in the breed standard as:

"TYPE &amp; CHARACTER
The Irish Draught Horse is an active, short-shinned, powerful horse with substance and quality. It is proud of bearing, deep of girth and strong of back and quarters. Standing over a lot of ground, it has an exceptionally strong and sound constitution. It has an intelligent and gentle nature and is noted for its docility and sense."

Obviously interpretations can vary - the more 'traditional' type is shorter and stockier, the more modern type is taller and somewhat more elegant, while still staying within the broad definition. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry - just seen this post after I'd already posted my last one! 

25 marks out of 145 does not seem to me to give 'type' a huge amount of importance in the judging, especially as it is a combined mark for 'type and character', not just physical type alone, so presumably a horse could pick up marks for gentleness, docility, pride of bearing, etc? 

Arabs don't have gradings, but in Arab in-hand showing (at international level) there is a points system similar to this. Horses are scored out of 20 on each of five categories: 1) Type, 2) Head and Neck, 3) Body and Topline, 4) Legs and 5) Movement. Five categories, so 'type' officially accounts for one fifth of the total marks, but as the head and neck are invariably judged on their 'typiness', it's actually more like two fifths. In other words, 'type' is given a very high degree of importance - effectively 40 marks out of 100! Quite a lot of people feel that there is excessive emphasis on type in Arab showing - the ID approach seems more balanced.

(Incidentally, if I may be permitted a tiny boast, Tobago scored 91.3 out of 100 at his last international show, winning a gold medal!)

Which type of ID do you prefer - the old-fashioned stockier type or the more elegant modern type?


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## Ciss (21 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
 Hmmm Ciss so there are excuses for each and every photo of a warmblood GP horse not having the cannon bone angles parallel but on the basis of just one photo you can rate the Irish mare as inferior? I don't agree and don't think you have done yourself any favours with that post.

[/ QUOTE ] 

Sorry but I did not excuse any of the ones that I did not feel showed correct parallel cannons aprt from those that were obviously doing lateral work (how can showing tension, lacking power and loosing balance be excuses when they are precisely the reasons why this type of behaviour in extension is NOT acceptable)  

[ QUOTE ]
 IMHO if you are going to use exclusion clauses they should be applied equally to all. The Irish mare has a young rider on her back. How much higher might her score have been if Carl had been riding her? Or Isabelle? 65% at GP with international judges (one was from Germany) is good! It would be in the top 5 at many World Cup qualifiers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Given that it wasn't (I believe) at a World Cup, judges mark moreharshly at a World Cup and that sort of score would certainly not make the top 5 at any of the ones I have been to I think you are being a bit generous there. I will say that the horse is showing considerable flexion behind which is a good thing but to be really effective she has to come through more from behind and perhaps -- to giev her the benefit of the doubt (or an exclusion clause to use your term) --  the inability to generate this impulsion is due to 'young rider' error but as you have not been able to say what the quality of her marks were for her walk and canter work this is rather hard to assess. 

[ QUOTE ]
 Regarding riders choosing bloodlines that are successful are you talking about riders from Europe? 

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, after all they are generally the most successful ones in the world.

[ QUOTE ]
The UK dressage riders I know are all totally uninterested in bloodlines, they just look at the horse in front of them. If it is a good horse they are interested. It could be a donkey x zebra but if it moved and had a good brain they would consider buying and training it. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually the structure of the sport at top level (and sorry but that is what we are talking about here) in this country is that it is the owners (not the riders) that generally pick the horses and then get a rider to train and compete them. And I can assure you that the owners do tend to know about bloodlines and are very careful about how they spend their money, buying for the most part horse that they know can do the job. I am talking here about non-riding owners of course that invest in a horse long-term and want it to do as well as possible at as high a level as possible. 


[ QUOTE ]
 Perhaps this is why the UK has had some "unusual" dressage horses such as Arun Tor with his Cleveland Bay blood or Mr President with his unknown breeding?

[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry but two swallows don't make a summer. The one good thing in all this though is that the knowledgeable owners that buy the horses for the top riders to ride are finally realising that they can get good British-bred examples of all the top bloodlines they like without having to go the dreaded 'foreign agent' or auction horse route. I doubt whether such British bred horses would find a buyer if they do not have the necessary bloodlines in their pedigree -- and I think the breeders/sellers of these horses would certainly agree with me.

[ QUOTE ]
 I do agree that at the moment warmbloods are the commonest breed that you see in GP dressage. What I don't agree with is that Irish Draught crosses are no hopers in dressage. There are some very talented ID x TBs out there with great ability. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry but tend to agree with Tom Reed on this one.

[ QUOTE ]
One of my favourites is M.J. Fine Art. He is schooling GP at home and highly rated by Steven Clarke the "O" judge. He's won at Premier leagues in PSG and Inter 1. And his owner and rider is an amateur. He is the first horse she's trained to GP. The best part is that M.J. Fine Art is a stallion. Perhaps one of his offspring will be the one to challenge the warmbloods in international dressage competition? 

[/ QUOTE ]
And as you will by now have seen from another post it would appear very likely that his sire was actually a Hannoverian and his ISH graded status is due to his mother's back pedigree rather than any close up ID in him or his sire. &lt;ROFL&gt;


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## alleycat (21 September 2008)

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/index.ph...l_font=1&amp;l=

Not much, but a clue. Mastermind produced show hunters, looking at the progeny tab.

 [ QUOTE ]
 the only Magnus I have come across in the past 20 years or so is an ungraded *Hannoverian* stallion of that name that stood in Cornwall at the Trago stud for a couple of years.  

[/ QUOTE ] 

Rather liked this as the all breed pedigree query gives a choice of over 30, mostly recorded as colts &amp; entires (some geldings), all sufficiently well known &amp; well valued to someone to be noted down... And there will be plenty of other Magnuses, doubtless, who will be remembered but never recorded anywhere..... And this is typical of horse breeding here as well as in Ireland; I mean, I could trace my old pony's pedigree back to the winner of the 1911 Derby; but I've nothing at all on paper. Its well worth remembering that "unknown" means "unknown NOW"; not necessarily unplanned or unvalued or unknown THEN.

A bit like Wade's boat, in fact.

(Excuse me being a bit of an anorak at 2.30 in the morning; I'm the taxi service tonight for daughter &amp; friends out clubbing, &amp; its this or the ironing, while I stay awake &amp; wait for the call. The ironing loses every time).


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## alleycat (21 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
 And as you will by now have seen from another post it would appear very likely that his sire was actually a Hannoverian and his ISH graded status is due to his mother's back pedigree rather than any close up ID in him or his sire. 

[/ QUOTE ] 

???
Perhaps you should look at the link to this horse previously given; the people standing him previously stood his sire and before that, his grandsire, whom they seem to have bought  as a weanling. They clearly state the breeding to be TB /ID on both sides of the pedigree. 
I would suggest that after 30 years in the business they KNOW how their own horses are bred; it seems a bit of a cheek to foist your "ungraded Hannoverian" on them, just because you personally have never heard of THIS Magnus ( or, presumably, the other 30)....


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## JanetGeorge (21 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]


And if so, what is this about? Why is it happening? 


[/ QUOTE ]

Can't comment on other breeds but in the ID it's being driven by the Irish Horse Board.  A lot of IB breeders - both in Ireland, the UK AND the USA are rather unhappy about it too.  But the IHB calls the shots with the ID in Ireland, and the Irish Inspectors  have final say in both stallion and mare grading in all the 'daughter' societies.  The in-fighting in the Irish Draught Horse Society in Ireland has resulted in High Court actions, and attempted coup over attempted coup - and I don't think anyone knows who is actually 'in control' anymore!


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## JanetGeorge (21 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]


25 marks out of 145 does not seem to me to give 'type' a huge amount of importance in the judging, especially as it is a combined mark for 'type and character', not just physical type alone, so presumably a horse could pick up marks for gentleness, docility, pride of bearing, etc? 

.....
Which type of ID do you prefer - the old-fashioned stockier type or the more elegant modern type? 

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep - it's the overall 'impression' of the horse - and of course the Inspectors' 'preference' can influence their marking in some of the other sections as well, I think.  For example, in the mark for 'foreleg' - some inspectors might mark a point or two lower if bone is on the light side - even if the foreleg is very correct and be more generous to a horse with more bone, even if it was not quite as correct. (ALthough of course serious faults are marked down hard and several defects are listed which are stomped on hard.

I don't have a strong preference between the 'types' - I like something in the middle.  Some of the very traditional mares (and stallions) are a bit coarse in head and neck - and some of the more modern types just don't have enough depth.

Of the mares shown, mare 2 is my favourite ID 'type' - although I'd like a bit more of mare 4's head and neck!  1 and 4 have rather long legs in relation to overall height.  But I love 4 - we only rode her for a short time before she went in foal but she was awesome!


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## Maesfen (21 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]


Of the mares shown, mare 2 is my favourite ID 'type' - although I'd like a bit more of mare 4's head and neck!  1 and 4 have rather long legs in relation to overall height.  But I love 4 - we only rode her for a short time before she went in foal but she was awesome! 

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm glad we seem to have the same sort of eye then!


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## Ciss (21 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


And if so, what is this about? Why is it happening? 


[/ QUOTE ]

Can't comment on other breeds but in the ID it's being driven by the Irish Horse Board.  A lot of IB breeders - both in Ireland, the UK AND the USA are rather unhappy about it too.  But the IHB calls the shots with the ID in Ireland, and the Irish Inspectors  have final say in both stallion and mare grading in all the 'daughter' societies.  The in-fighting in the Irish Draught Horse Society in Ireland has resulted in High Court actions, and attempted coup over attempted coup - and I don't think anyone knows who is actually 'in control' anymore! 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

This sounds like a complete recipe for disaster to me, no wonder all you ID enthusiasts are so touchy about anyone commenting on your horses (but you do still do it -- more than most other breeders I feel) so perhaps you are so worried about consistency in what your garders mark that you have to search for external support/denial of their opinions.

I have to say I still don't understand why mares have to be graded repeatedly -- unless it is becuase people keep doing it until the panel in a certain year agrees with what they themselves think of their stock.

What a mess -- and especially for a breed which in its pure-bred form has such a limited gene pool that it is almost Rare breed category.

BTW, who selects the grading panel(s)? Is it done annually by public or postal vote, is it done by a judges sub-committee or the overall bree council or is it muggins turn (Charlie hasn;t done it for a bit let him have the perks of travelling round and meeting people this year)


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## stolensilver (21 September 2008)

Whoa Ciss things are getting silly now aren't they? It is abundantly clear that you don't like Irish Draughts. That's your choice. But to foist an "ungraded Hannovarian" onto Fine Art just because you wanted to claim that "quality has to come from somewhere" is crazy! I've been to Fine Art's home, talked at length to his owners. He is a mix of ID and TB. No warmblood anywhere in sight.

 As I mentioned before Steven Clarke, the Olympic dressage judge, loves this horse. He's taught the owner on Fine Art (Finn) for years and always insists on riding him at some stage during the lesson because he's so nice to ride and so talented. There are photos of Steven on Finn on the website. I'm very happy to listen to an Olympic judge when it comes to opinion about dressage talent and trainability!

Why did you feel the need to question Fine Art's heritage? Why can you not accept that Irish horses can excel in dressage? It is insulting to the stallion owner (hope they don't read this thread) and makes you look as if you have a one track mind: if it isn't warmblood it's no good.

I'm still hoping Tom will reply to explain his assertation that trying to breed dressage horses with Irish blood "is futile". I'm guessing he's tried mixing IDSH and dressage warmblood and hasn't liked the outcome. But he does like mixing IDSH with jumping warmblood to get showjumpers and is very successful at it. Yet many Irish breeders have had no luck with that combination for jumping and are now actively avoiding those crosses. I am wondering if Tom has not tried all that many Irish warmblood dressage breedings and has not found the right combination yet?

My experience with dressage, and I'm doing Advanced now, is that at Novice level you find all sorts of horses from all sorts of breeds. As you move up to Medium there seem to be more warmbloods but as you move on to Advanced the number of Irish horses soars again. Chatting to their riders they often say that the Irish horse has better trainability and soundness than the warmbloods they have had. This has been my experience too.

If we work out the statistics there are thousands of Hannovarians born each year. Same with KWPN. Both those countries are interested in dressage giving those horses a good chance of receiving good dressage training. The Irish Draught is a rare breed. Each year there are a couple of hundred sports horse foals born. People still think of Irish horses as all rounders and jumpers so they are less likely to end up receiving dressage training yet despite this there are significant numbers reaching Advanced dressage and beyond. Statistically there may not be a big difference (% wise) between the success rate of Hannovarians reaching Advanced and Irish horses doing the same. Right now there are no IDSH at World Cup level but I would not be at all surprised if this changed in the future especially as the judges are being asked to look for more purity in the paces so flash up front is no longer getting the marks it used to. IDSH do have very good basic paces with ability to extend and collect. IMHO the only reason they aren't at the top of the sport of dressage yet is because their potential for dressage is only just being realised.


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## Ciss (21 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
 [ QUOTE ]
 And as you will by now have seen from another post it would appear very likely that his sire was actually a Hannoverian and his ISH graded status is due to his mother's back pedigree rather than any close up ID in him or his sire. 

[/ QUOTE ] 

???
Perhaps you should look at the link to this horse previously given; the people standing him previously stood his sire and before that, his grandsire, whom they seem to have bought  as a weanling. They clearly state the breeding to be TB /ID on both sides of the pedigree. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Odd that, as having looked up his pedigree on both the web page I found for it via google and using the old BHD book Magnus II's sire Mastermind was actually an Anglo Arab if the descriptor X was being used correctly of course.

The BHD entry gives no proven dam's pedigree -- presumably becuase of their rather stricter criteria for accepting verfified breeding data than the ISH in GB, but even bearing that in mind, yes I did over look that link (I was having difficulty getting to sleep due to the fact that my rotary cuff and disassociatied bone chip obtained whilst evaluating 6 weeks ago does make it rather difficult to lie down conformtably) but we are all human and unlike some others on this list I do still admit to being a constant learner even after 30 years of breeding / grading and judging. Anyone who thinks they know everything or is closed to listening to others arguments (even if they do not finally accept them) is not likely to progress at all however grand and exclusive their breeding aims are.

[ QUOTE ]
I would suggest that after 30 years in the business they KNOW how their own horses are bred; it seems a bit of a cheek to foist your "ungraded Hannoverian" on them, just because you personally have never heard of THIS Magnus ( or, presumably, the other 30).... 

[/ QUOTE ]

I did check the very unreliable souce of the del Mar site and came up with the same info you did but as most were horses with no breeding -- or very confusing entries and no progeny -- I did not think it worth bothering the list with as it was obviously a total dead end. Via NED I also found at least 40 with a sire including Magnus in their names but almost all were Fjords so obviously not much relevance there either. &lt;ROFL&gt;

The inadvertent slip of language you made when descibing what I did as ' foist an ungraded Hannoverian stallion' on to MJ Fine Art's breeding programme is I am afraid a rather more worrying indication of your belief that it must be the ID part of the pedigree that makes him such a good dressage horse. Sorry but in the real world of international dressage results it is the warmblood breeds that dominate (Hann, KWPN and Old mostly), not the ID (which has hardly any representatives in the top 1000 international horses and no breed listing even for ISH's. Obviously ISHs are currently top of the Eventing list but here the improvement in performance can be directly dated to the infusion of good moving warmbloods (especially Cavalier Royale, Furisto and Henks' stallions when he was in Ireland) which gives them just the positive start they need to lead from the first day, and their showjumping ranking is now rising again (thanks again not inconsiderably to the same infusion of wb blood) so why not celebrate success in eventing and showjumping and not go chasing rainbows by trying to claim excellence in dressage breeding too?

As always breeds to your strengths, not your weaknesses.


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## britbreeder (21 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
 I think you're AMAZINGLY clever if you can judge a horse so comprehensively from one snapshot. 

[/ QUOTE ] 

But that was what you were offering us here, with the comment about what super moving horses they were.  In those photos, I couldn't see great or even above average movement.

The challenge set out by you Janet, was "who says ID's can't move?"  Based on those photos, probably most people who have an idea of what movement is, would say "me!".

I rather feel that you should have put this in the "breeders chuff chart".


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## TomReed (21 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
Tom what do you base your comment "using Irish blood in a dressage breeding programme is futile" upon? 

[/ QUOTE ]

First of all, by a "dressage breeding programme" please allow me to be explicit about my assumption that the goal of such a programme is to breed dressage horses that can compete successfully at international level.  That said, any sporthorse (of any breed or registry) should be able to compete at preliminary to novice to elementary levels. 

I base my statement on knowing Irish horses and having seen hundreds of Irish mares. Irish breeders and the Irish Horse Board do not select breeding stock on the basis of movement, gaits, and rideability.  

Horses like the aforementioned ISH that is competing in dressage lack the elasticity that we see in the average warmblood.


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## stolensilver (21 September 2008)

X means 10. There are lots of horses whose name has been Magnus, something we all agree on.


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## TomReed (21 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
Yep - it's a bit of a bummer - the number of ISH horses these days that AREN'T ISH - they're just Irish born KWPN, Hannoverian, etc. etc.  Still, it means that all those English people who USED to go to Ireland to buy 'proper' ISH youngsters are now buying them in England!  Let's face it, there are more people who want nice quality all-rounders/hunters/low-level (or high level) eventers, or low level dressage horses that they can also have FUN on than there are people looking for Olympic potential dressage horses. 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

That is true, JanetGeorge -- the market for amateur horses is bigger than the market for top-level competition horses and prospects -- but I do not think it is a "bummer" that some Irish breeders are using non-Irish bloodlines. If people want to breed for the amateur market,  go ahead.


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## TomReed (21 September 2008)

"'m still hoping Tom will reply to explain his assertation that trying to breed dressage horses with Irish blood "is futile". I'm guessing he's tried mixing IDSH and dressage warmblood and hasn't liked the outcome. But he does like mixing IDSH with jumping warmblood to get showjumpers and is very successful at it. Yet many Irish breeders have had no luck with that combination for jumping and are now actively avoiding those crosses. I am wondering if Tom has not tried all that many Irish warmblood dressage breedings and has not found the right combination yet?"

Stolensilver, please see my post above.

No, I have never tried breeding a dressage horse using a sire or dam with traditional Irish bloodlines. And I do not see myself ever trying to do so as I have only one lifetime. 

Even if a particular traditional Irish stallion or mare had exceptional movement, gaits, and rideability -- and by "exceptional" I mean good enough to even consider using in a dressage breeding programme -- it is much more likely that that particular sire or dam is a "freak" and will not pass on this exceptional movement and gaits to his or her progeny. Why? Because the genes that produced those gaits and movement are not consolidated in the sire's sireline and mareline or in the dam's sireline and damline. 

That said, I have never seen a traditionally-bred Irish stallion or mare that I would consider using in a dressage breeding programme. I have never seen one that has "exceptional" movemement and gaits. Even if they have three very good gaits (which is very rarely seen) they lack elasticity.

Regarding crossing traditional ISH mares with warmblood sires for showjumping breeding, in my mare herd I have only three traditional ISH mares (two by Cruising and one by Boherdeal Clover) and that is enough for me. If it were not for the warmblood x ISH cross the Irish studbook would not be in 11th place, its current position, but even lower.

A major problem in Ireland is the particular warmblood stallions many breeders use; i.e., stallions that could not get approved on the continent, or on on the KWPN watch list, or are headed for the KWPN watch list, and are shipped over to Ireland. Many have been here on free leases. 

ID and ISH horses are not bred for dressage; it is not a breeding goal of the Irish studbook or Irish breeders. If one or two happen to make it in the international sport it is a happy accident. In the current WBFSH ranking of international dressage horses there is one (1) Irish horse: Komplete Kaos (Kingsway Diamond x Imperial Seal). This gelding, ranked 307 out of 500 horses in the ranking, is competing in New Zealand, hardly a hotbed for international dressage!


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## stolensilver (21 September 2008)

I guess we are going to have to disagree on the potential for Irish horses in dressage Tom. Claggan Roxy Music won the Irish National GP title. She was doing dressage as her second career after being a show hunter and was ridden by a young rider. She beat every warmblood in those championships. There was another Irish Draught Sports horse a few years ago, bay gelding, ridden by a New Zealander who did international GP. He regularly got 10s for his piaffe and passage. I wish I could remember his name! Edited to add I was posting at the same time as Tom. The one I am thinking about is not Komplete Kaos. The horse I cannot remember competed in Europe and retired a few years ago.

These Irish horses are making it to national and international GP dressage despite it being a discipline that they are not bred for or selected for. Doesn't that suggest that within the Irish Draught Sports Horse there are some very able dressage horses? 

I think one of the cleverest things the majority of European stud books did was to have an open doors policy. None of this purebred stuff or half bred this and quarter bred that. If a horse was good enough to grade into the studbook it became a horse of that studbook. I think that is what the IHB is now doing with a view to breeding the best competition horses they can. Can't see that what they are doing is any different from what the Hanovarian, KWPN, Belgian etc etc stud books have been doing for many decades. I think it is what the SHB(GB) should be doing with less of an emphasis on show hunters and thoroughbreds. Another edit! Seems as if the IHB is less strict about the stallions it allows breeders to use. The basic idea of accepting good horses from most breeds is a sound one (and a European one) as long as you maintain a high standard for entry to the studbook.

I do wonder if it will become more common to see IDSHs being stood as stallions and bred to IDSH mares? Although it is frequently said that the second cross is less reliable, many of the famous RID stallions from 20-30 years ago had TB blood in them and their offspring turned out just fine. 

Doesn't this whole discussion boil down to a good horse being a good horse no matter what breed or studbook they belong to? That Irish Draught sports horses have competed at international eventing, showjumping and dressage while half of the cross, the Irish Draught, is a rare/endangered breed speaks volumes about how often ID x TB produces a good quality athletes.


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## JanetGeorge (21 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]

This sounds like a complete recipe for disaster to me, no wonder all you ID enthusiasts are so touchy about anyone commenting on your horses (but you do still do it -- more than most other breeders I feel) so perhaps you are so worried about consistency in what your garders mark that you have to search for external support/denial of their opinions.

I have to say I still don't understand why mares have to be graded repeatedly -- unless it is becuase people keep doing it until the panel in a certain year agrees with what they themselves think of their stock.

[/ QUOTE ]

I THOUGHT I'd explained what Hornby's were - it's not grading as such (just marked exactly the same) - it's partly an incentive scheme to encourage RID mare owners to breed pure - and it's partly to identify outstanding mares.

A mare is graded - at anything from 2 years of age.  WHEN she has a pure-bred foal at foot by an RID stallion she can be re-presented for inspection and if she scores highly enough she gets a Hornby Premium (nice rossie and £100).  She can win 3 Hornby Premiums - 3 different years - 3 different judging panels - and then she is titled a Hornby Select mare (very nice rossie, no extra money, but her pure-bred foals are then registered free for life) - all the Hornby Select mares are listed in the Year Book.  This is a UK scheme.  Ireland has a similar scheme 'Quality Premium' but I'm not sure of the details.  (And I'm not 'touchy' about people commenting on my stock - I'd just prefer they weren't slated on a public forum on the basis of amateur snapshots which were only put up to demonstrate 'type'.)

[ QUOTE ]
BTW, who selects the grading panel(s)? Is it done annually by public or postal vote, is it done by a judges sub-committee or the overall bree council or is it muggins turn (Charlie hasn;t done it for a bit let him have the perks of travelling round and meeting people this year) 

[/ QUOTE ]

The Judges's panel is selected at assessment days where potential judges must satisfy senior judges that they know what they're doing - either for the conformation panel, or the ride panel, or both.


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## S_N (21 September 2008)

This thread has been truely fascinating!

I'd just like to say that an internationally reknowned Dressage rider/trainer/judge/breeder, that I used to work for, once told me that any horse, of sound confortmation, temperament and athleticism, should be able to perform at PSG - how well they'd do is another matter, but they should, with correct schooling be capable of the movements.  

Also, all this talk of the sharpness of WB's - why are they then often refered to as 'dumb bloods'?  TBF I've only known a few that meet this description...

That said, I've known a fair few IDx's and ISH's who are more than a little sharp and not for the novice rider/owner...  In fact as Shil's pointed out, I've had far more near death experiences with this breed/type than any others (bar TB's, but then I've worked with far more TB's, so rule of numbers there I should think).


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## alleycat (21 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
 The inadvertent slip of language you made when descibing what I did as ' foist an ungraded Hannoverian stallion' on to MJ Fine Art's breeding programme is I am afraid a rather more worrying indication of your belief that it must be the ID part of the pedigree that makes him such a good dressage horse.  

[/ QUOTE ] 

Why is that worrying? Whatever went into this horses' pedigree made him a good dressage horse; and THAT was ID and TB. That's all there is too it.   

Now you are worrying me, Ciss; I've always found your posts enlightening &amp; fair-minded across a range of breeds and types; yet you clearly see the quality in this stallion and yet seem to be saying that as he's good, he can't be ID bred.

[ QUOTE ]
   Obviously ISHs are currently top of the Eventing list but here the improvement in performance can be directly dated to the infusion of good moving warmbloods (especially Cavalier Royale, Furisto and Henks' stallions when he was in Ireland)

[/ QUOTE ]

Improvement? Irish horses have always been right up there, both here and in Ireland. 

Its a difficult one for anybody with a closed studbook or a worthwhile and established product; change it and you might gain- but you will also lose what you've got. I don't think that's just true for Irish Draughts; I suspect its true for Trakhener breeders, TB breeders, those who champion the Iberian breeds; native pony breeders. They have all had to cope with this &amp; come to a decision or a compromise. But when someone does manage to both have their cake &amp; eat it in other breeds - the producers of Stravinsky for example- you have no difficulty giving them credit- so why not admit that it can happen in this case too?

Despite the incomplete information on the breeding websites (and I think sometimes wrong information- there is some confusion with the Gamekeeper who was a son of Welton Gameful, I think) the horses pedigree is detailed by the people who know it best on the link previously given. Why is there a problem with this?


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## britbreeder (21 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
 Doesn't this whole discussion boil down to a good horse being a good horse no matter what breed or studbook they belong to? 

[/ QUOTE ] Yes, absolutely, so now we start the discussion about the stud books which win the medals more often than the others.  Because it is those studbooks who have more horses being those "good horses" you're talking about.

the "only one lifetime" statement hits the nail on the head.  I'm sure it's very admirable and honorable to attempt to reintroduce the ID in it's pure form, back in to modern sport horse breeding.


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## alleycat (21 September 2008)

Statistics of the Sports Horse Worldwide 
      #3525180 - 18/09/2008 10:56 

So that'll be KWPN then, since nothing else seems to come anywhere close. 

So ditch your stocks of semen, Ken, you're out of the running......


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## magic104 (21 September 2008)

X means 10. There are lots of horses whose name has been Magnus, something we all agree on.  

If you see XX after a horses name that generally denotes TB OX means Arab, I think that is what Ciss was referring to.  I think it needs to be accepted that even studs like KEC state that the continetal WB's are needed &amp; they use them in their breeding programme.  There are good points in all the breeds along with the weakness's.  Celia commented on the mare being mascaline, it has to be said in that photo, the mare does in deed resemble a stallion.  I dont think C is blinded to other breeds.  She has never to my knowledge looked down her nose at mine &amp; they have until recently been ISH &amp; PBA's.  A good horse is a good horse no matter what parents it has.  A great horse is one that can do &amp; pass it on.


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## JanetGeorge (21 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]

The BHD entry gives no proven dam's pedigree -- presumably becuase of their rather stricter criteria for accepting verfified breeding data than the ISH in GB, 


[/ QUOTE ]

What nonsense - the IDHS(GB) has VERY strict criteria for accepting breeding information (which is why there are a number of 'irish sport horse' stallions around that are NOT graded with IDHS onto the Sport Horse Register.

The inadvertent slip of language you made when descibing what I did as ' foist an ungraded Hannoverian stallion' on to MJ Fine Art's breeding programme is I am afraid a rather more worrying indication of your belief that it must be the ID part of the pedigree that makes him such a good dressage horse. Sorry but in the real world of international dressage results it is the warmblood breeds that dominate (Hann, KWPN and Old mostly), not the ID  

[/ QUOTE ]

As Fine Art is at LEAST a quarter RID and has no Warmblood breeding, that seems a reasonable supposition to me.  No one (or at least not me 
	
	
		
		
	


	




) is claiming that the RID can/should/does play a role in breeding top international dressage horses - that would just be plain silly.  Can I remind you that in the original post - which was about Irish Draughts, not about breeding dressage horses, I said: "Who said Irish Draughts can't MOVE?"  I did NOT say: "Who said IDs can't move as well as Warmbloods?" or "Who said IDs don't move well enough to be Olympic-class dressage horses?"

If I was hoping to breed top class dressage horses I would NOT start with RID's - although I have seen some 'proper' Irish sport horse mares who would give a good start if put to a big moving Warmblood stallion!    But NO RID is going to match the BIG movement of a good Warmblood (although some RIDs MIGHT find piaffe easier than some BIG moving Warmbloods - and it doesn't fry their brains to be collected that much!)

I would certainly like to take a home-bred stallion forward to - say - PSG; if just to convince the keen Amateur rider who will never get beyond Medium that they may be happier and more successful on a horse they can keep inside the arena - and also take hunting, do a bit of showjumping on, etc. etc.

But BIG movement is only one aspect of a dressage horse.  It also needs to be able to collect, and have elevation, and have a brain that doesn't lose it under pressure - at whatever level!  That temperament bit is where a lot of Warmbloods do fail (and why Anky needs rollkur!)  If the piaffe 'explodes' at a crucial moment, the BIG movement may have been in vain.


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## JanetGeorge (21 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]


That is true, JanetGeorge -- the market for amateur horses is bigger than the market for top-level competition horses and prospects -- but I do not think it is a "bummer" that some Irish breeders are using non-Irish bloodlines. If people want to breed for the amateur market,  go ahead. 

[/ QUOTE ]

That comment WAS made somewhat tongue in cheek, Tom (hence the  
	
	
		
		
	


	




)  I have no problem with the Irish breeders using whatever they want (or what the IHB wants - they're the ones who control the money.)

Where the pure-bred Irish Draught is concerned (and that was where this thread started), I think the IHB's influence on the breed has been detrimental.  Chasing 'performance' to the detriment of breed 'type' has resulted in: 1) a narrowing of bloodlines available - with some 80% of the mare herd being KoD, PoS, or CH bloodlines, and 2) a loss of bone.  And the IHB's refusal to recognise UK stallions (despite the fact that THEIR inspectors have final say in their grading) unless the owners (and horses) jump through hoops deprives Irish breeders of good outcross stallions.

Irish Draughts SHOULDN'T be looked at as 2nd rate Sport Horses.  They are a distinct and seperate breed with their own strengths (and weaknesses.)  Improving the BREED - as per the breed standard - should be first priority (but it doesn't seem to be!)


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## TomReed (21 September 2008)

I understand now; thanks.

Regarding breeding RIDs or IDs I have no insights to offer except why should "breed type" be an end in itself, the primary breeding goal?

 I believe this is precisely the mistake the Trakehner Verband and many of its members made some years ago. They ended up producing nice looking horses that possesed the "Trakehner-type" but on average over time they lost a lot of athleticism.  So now Trakenhers are mostly used in breeding to (1) produce Trakehner-type" Trakehners for aficionados and (2) to a much lesser extent to "refine" a couple of other breeds (especially Hanoverian).  But they are not used by other studbooks for their potential contributions with respect to athletic abilities. And since the Trakehner studbook is closed except for selected TB/AA/ShA mares and stallions this studbook has some real problems trying to figure out how to return to producing horses for sport and not beauty contests.  

If the RID/ID breeders go the way you are suggesting they will encounter similar problems, I believe.


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## JanetGeorge (21 September 2008)

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Regarding breeding RIDs or IDs I have no insights to offer except why should "breed type" be an end in itself, the primary breeding goal?



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Ah - you misunderstand.  Breed 'type' should never be the primary breeding goal!  And type is already quite variable.  What SHOULD be the priority is improving movement and conformation, while retaining bone and the best characteristics of the breed (brain, jumping ability, in particular.)

There is still scope to bring in outside blood - in the UK at least - through the female line.  A mare who has 3 RID grandparents and the 4th either TB or native (eg Connemara) can be graded AID.  And the daughters of AID mares by an RID can be graded RID (if good enough.)  My Northwood Rose is out of an AID mare - and is herself a Hornby Select mare.  She has a stallion son standing in the USA, and two good graded daughters in the UK.


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## volatis (21 September 2008)

I have to object to Tom's comments on Trakehners. I think you'll find for such a small stud book compared to the likes of the might Hanoverians etc, that the Trakehners are becoming increasingly important as a source of top class modern dressage prospects. The verband have made a huge effort to retain type but also improve athleticism and movement in recent years, and the fact that the 5yo Bundeschampion Imperio is the horse every one is talking about, is not a fluke! 

Then add in other Trakehners who qualified and scored well - Kasimir for example, or Le Rouge, winner of one of the consolation finals, and 5th or 6th in the main 6yo final. And thats ignoring the influence of the likes of the great Consul, who as the dam sire of Don Frederico, appeared in an awful lot of pedigrees of the competiors. And thats ignoring the eventing competitors.


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## Ciss (22 September 2008)

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BTW, who selects the grading panel(s)? Is it done annually by public or postal vote, is it done by a judges sub-committee or the overall bree council or is it muggins turn (Charlie hasn;t done it for a bit let him have the perks of travelling round and meeting people this year) 

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The Judges's panel is selected at assessment days where potential judges must satisfy senior judges that they know what they're doing - either for the conformation panel, or the ride panel, or both. 

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Sorry you misunderstood my question. It was not 'How do people get on the panel?' but 'Who selects what person should go where to grade and when?'

Just interested as it seems such a political hot potatoe with the conflicting views on type.


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## Ciss (22 September 2008)

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X means 10. There are lots of horses whose name has been Magnus, something we all agree on.  

If you see XX after a horses name that generally denotes TB OX means Arab, I think that is what Ciss was referring to.  I think it needs to be accepted that even studs like KEC state that the continetal WB's are needed &amp; they use them in their breeding programme.  There are good points in all the breeds along with the weakness's.  Celia commented on the mare being mascaline, it has to be said in that photo, the mare does in deed resemble a stallion.  I dont think C is blinded to other breeds.  She has never to my knowledge looked down her nose at mine &amp; they have until recently been ISH &amp; PBA's.  A good horse is a good horse no matter what parents it has.  A great horse is one that can do &amp; pass it on. 

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Thank you so much for theat vote of confidence, I was begiing to think I was now public enemy no 1:-(. 

Thank you also for explaining what I meant by X. I sometimes forget that people are not always conversant with the international meaning of XX, X and OX even though they are explained in almost all wb studbook catalogues and those for the bD YH&amp;B champs and the Futurity final.


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## JanetGeorge (22 September 2008)

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Sorry you misunderstood my question. It was not 'How do people get on the panel?' but 'Who selects what person should go where to grade and when?'

Just interested as it seems such a political hot potatoe with the conflicting views on type. 

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Ah - sorry.  I think it's a case of who didn't do it last year and who we can persuade to do it THIS year - certainly as far as the UK inspectors are concerned.  The IHB/IDHS(Ireland) picks the Irish inspector (or 2 -as there are two teams doing grading each year)  They start at the Breed Show and one team goes north - and the other south - takes 3-4 days - as at many venues there are only 2-3 mares, just a lot of travelling.


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## Ciss (22 September 2008)

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 Now you are worrying me, Ciss; I've always found your posts enlightening &amp; fair-minded across a range of breeds and types; yet you clearly see the quality in this stallion and yet seem to be saying that as he's good, he can't be ID bred.?

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Oh dear, I am sorry that this appears to be the case, that is not what I am about at all so perhaps the fact that this has appeared to turn (not at my behest) into an anti ID thread is partly becuase I have not explained what my cirteria in assessing the suitability of any stallion (regardless of breed) to be used as a sire of top class (as distinct from club level / all round) progeny in any discipline.

I have always believed (and I had hoped that I had made it clear in the past) that  in order to be successful as a discipline-specific sire at a good level the stallion concerned must have both the genotype (generations of proven ancesters that have been there, done that, worn the T shirt or have produced progeny that have) and the phenotype (showing external qualities of conformation, paces, temperament and soundness). Stallions that come from breeds that do not ahve a proven and wide spread success in the discipline have a problem right from the beginning for me -- as do stallions that come from bloodlines that do not show talent in the specific discipline even if the breed itself has high WBFSH rankings in it -- as nothing comes from nothing and it is a huge gamble for any mare owner to take to use a stallion just based on one of these aspects (and particularly the phenotype one).

Strangely in the past, when stallions rarely competed themselves, this was not an issue. They did their performance test, the mare owners looked at the scores -- and perhaps a little at how the stallions peformed under saddle in later years in special stallion shows (more to see how they had matured on, remained sound and accepted more demanding work than to see who was best in competition conditions) -- and above all consulted their BLUPs based on progeny results and then made their breeding decisions. In this way I suppose they were a little like the racing industry is today -- do what is necessary then retire to stud and let your progeny show how good you really are -- and the complexities of trying to assess the variables involved in assessing competing stallions against each other at higher levels were not involved.

Now, however, we have a much more complex scenario with probably a majority of stallions having to compete to keep themselves in the public eye at least at the beginning of their careers. Unfortunately, however, just becuase a stallion is a successful competition horse it does not mean that he has the genotype to become a successful sire of competition horses at a higher level, however good his performance is (the progeny assessment results of Lingh alone prove that &lt;sigh&gt and some stalion owners also use ridden performance success as a way of trying to massage the mare owners into irgnoring some pretty horrendous conformational defects (which often sadly turn out to be inheritable anyway and so make a bad situation worse). And before anyone jumps gleefully in to point out that these faults must also have been in the genes of the successful stallion too and therefore one should not set too much store by genotype, I would point out that probably these stallions graded in spite of the fault and were allowed covering permission whilts being required to compete in order to allow the graders a longer time to asses how much it affected them. Meanwhile the really savvy mare owners (especially those concerned with selling foals at good prices and as potential stallions) will have steered clear of using that stallion (however successful he was under saddle) just becuase they suspected that the hereditary problem would persist.

In all this complexity chosing to use a young stallion with a pedigree that contains no proven talent in a specific sport, however successful he may be himself, is not to my mind a good idea as he could well be a one-off and if it is your mare(s) that prove that then it is a very expensive error to have made. BTW, just as an example on the thread about cloning it was not by accident that I did not chose Desert Orchid. I thought he was a wonderful athletic horse with great power and superb paces (and amazing naturally uphill transitions) but it is generall acknowledged that his close family were pretty much below average and he was a total one-off. IOW, if he had been kept a stallion I doubt wether he would have thrown anything even half as good as he was himself.

So to explain myself, I am not prejudiced for or against any breed. I do believe that when you breed you should always select the best possible stallion for your mare to achieve the aims you set yourself and that the stallion must be graded/licenced according to the criteria set by the studbook concerned, have a full pedigree with ancestors that have proven achievement in what you are breeding for (or who have produced progeny that have performed accordingly) . Breeding is enough of a lottery as it is without adding in any hidden complications that an inappropriate/unproven pedigree can bring with it, especially in a country where, sadly, a notable percentage of mares have unproven pedigrees and performance themselves.

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    But when someone does manage to both have their cake &amp; eat it in other breeds - the producers of Stravinsky for example- you have no difficulty giving them credit- so why not admit that it can happen in this case too?

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Sorry, but don't quite understand the point here. Not only is there a very long tradition of grading in high-class race-tested TBs into warmblood studbooks (so his phenotype is certainly OK) he has also competed himself up to PSG level and above and is still sound and correct and working well under saddle at the age of 20 as those who had the pleasure of seeing him at Burghley a couple of weeks ago will testify (so he certainly has the phenotype too). 

[ QUOTE ]
 Despite the incomplete information on the breeding websites (and I think sometimes wrong information- there is some confusion with the Gamekeeper who was a son of Welton Gameful, I think) the horses pedigree is detailed by the people who know it best on the link previously given. Why is there a problem with this? 

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Only that becuase it would appear that neither his sire and possibly his grandsire and some of his dam's pedigree were not registered with a studbook that could record and verify his breeding it is difficult to prove independently. I am sure that his owners are correct in what they say (after all they bred him) but I am afraid that in most WBFSH studbooks he would not be eligible for grading as a stallion (or even in a studbook above Basic for mares if he was one) *however good he was* precisely becuase his genotype is unproven by independent means, again because of the extra gamble (above what is normally involved in breeding) that is inherent when both factors are not fully in place.


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## TomReed (22 September 2008)

Volatis, you wrote: "the Trakehners are becoming increasingly important".

Please note the verb tense you use. Do you believe that the Trakenhner studbook did not go through (note my verb tense) a patch where they lost a lot of influence in both sport and breeding because so many breeders (and studbook officials) chose type over athleticism?

And I am not talking about producing Bundeschampionate winners. I am talking about playing an important role in the genetics of OTHER studbooks and producing Trakehners that are competing internationally in all three disciplines. 

I believe they lost their way and are trying to get the sport focus back.  But it is a long road back to regaining athleticism, particularly for an almost-closed studbook.


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## volatis (22 September 2008)

I am not denying that at all Tom, they did go through a phase where type and beauty played too important a role over function and sport. But the modern Trakehner and modern Trakehner breeders are doing a bloody good job of recapturing the success of the breed pre War. I think success in the Bundeschampionate is bloody good personally. And I can cite a few Trakehners that are influential at the top end of the sport too, think Gribaldi, who the mighty KWPN use so extensively, or that Consul was damsire of one of the German team horses Bonaparte, or Windfall, an Olympic competitor in eventing. I admit show jumping is not the strongest area for the breed, compared to the likes of Holstein, but Abdullah did pretty well at a time the breed was still trying to pull itself together from the 'pretty' phase.
Even PS has had to admit there is a place for Trakehners now, both in other studbooks and in their own right - and he used to be one of their fiercest critics


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## TomReed (22 September 2008)

You think they have come back and recaptured their former glory; I think they still have a long way to go.  In either case the point remains that studbooks that begin to emphasize type over athleticism create serious problems for themselves that take a long time to solve.

By the way,  I am a member of the Trakehner Verband, I own a Trakehner dressage mare, I co-bred a Trakehner-registered foal and I bred two other foals using Trakehner sires: I am not anti-Trakehner. And I had a (Holsteiner) stallion compete in the showjumping final in the Bundeschampionate so I understand what needs to be done and not done to do well at Warendorf.


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## Tharg (22 September 2008)

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You have FANTASTIC taste in Irish Draughts IMHO - would you like to join the Inspection panel! 
	
	
		
		
	


	







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Why thank you, I am partial to brown envelopes...


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## volatis (22 September 2008)

I dont think they are back to their former glory, no, they had  apretty impressive Olympic record that now the Dutch and Hanoverians have claimed. But I think they have made serious progress in recent times and are far more influential again now than they have been for some time, and I hope it will continue.


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## htobago (22 September 2008)

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I am not denying that at all Tom, they did go through a phase where type and beauty played too important a role over function and sport.  

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Fascinating...

A lot of people feel that the same thing has happened with Arab breeding - that there is far too much emphasis on type and beauty, at the expense of good conformation and athletic ability. And I have to admit that when I was colt-shopping 2 years ago, it took me a long time to find one that had both 'exotic' type AND athletic conformation/action! 

What upset me most during this search was the breeders I met (fortunately only a small minority) who used the term 'riding horse' as an insult - to describe horses they did not consider to be pretty/typey enough for the in-hand show ring!  
	
	
		
		
	


	





I'm sure the Trakehner breeders' phase of over-emphasis on type and beauty never went to quite this ludicrous extreme!


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## stolensilver (22 September 2008)

This is slightly late but yes, of course I know what x, ox and xx mean in a pedigree. The point was that assuming x meant anglo arab in the pedigree of an IDSH was so obviously wrong (and probably tongue in cheek) I didn't think I needed to explain any further beyond the reminder about roman numerals.

Regarding Trakehners earlier this year I went shopping for a potential dressage horse. I have no favourite breeds or bloodlines. A good horse is a good horse. I went to lots and lots of studs looking at youngsters and only saw one filly that stood out. She happens to be a Trakehner! LOL! I'll let you know what they're like at dressage in about 6 years time.


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