# No post on Totilas?



## soulfull (14 August 2015)

I was surprised not to see a post in here ?


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## SpringArising (14 August 2015)

Me too. Poor thing. I hope something remedial will be done.


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## j1ffy (14 August 2015)

Why? He's just another averagely good dressage International horse scoring in the mid-70s.

Valegro on the other hand...


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## Pinkvboots (14 August 2015)

I have not heard anything what happened.


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## SpringArising (14 August 2015)

Pinkvboots said:



			I have not heard anything what happened.
		
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The FEI uploaded a video on FB, then hundreds of people noticed he was lame on his hind so the video got pulled. 

There's a video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kk3SXy7c0bg

The fact it's so jumpy makes it hard to see, but I saw the HQ version on FB and it was very clear that he was.


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## ester (14 August 2015)

He's never been even but I do think he looks worse than last year https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPvOxZj7ARs

He obv had to pass trot up to start and looks better in shute so presume tension/uneveness in the arena.


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## ihatework (14 August 2015)

I watched on on FEI TV. Obviously uneven behind at times, whether this was tension or something else I wouldn't like to say. 

The Spanish horse & rider were a very pleasant surprise, I look forward to seeing more of them.


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## LeannePip (14 August 2015)

I saw the video before it was pulled and my instinct was that he was short behind, then second guessed myself because 1) surely some one would have noticed before he went in and 2) surely the FEI wouldnt have put the video up.

I didn't really fancy him that much 1st time around with EG - it was quite impressive like nothing we'd seen before but i didn't find him pleasing to watch - something always looked wrong and mechanical about him.  Valegro impress with the ease at which he does everything and even though he is extrodinary it loos so natural and effortless


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## Pinkvboots (14 August 2015)

SpringArising said:



			The FEI uploaded a video on FB, then hundreds of people noticed he was lame on his hind so the video got pulled. 

There's a video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kk3SXy7c0bg

The fact it's so jumpy makes it hard to see, but I saw the HQ version on FB and it was very clear that he was.
		
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Thank you he does not look comfortable does he


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## Hoof_Prints (14 August 2015)

I don't like to question the professional's judgement, but he definitely looks uncomfortable behind :/ seems uncomfortable on his left, but hard to tell with the video being jumpy. What a shame, he's such a beautiful horse but no match for Valegro movement-wise.


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## oldie48 (14 August 2015)

I didn't see the FEI video but even with the one posted there is irregularity behind and he looks to be holding a lot of tension in his neck and is frequently btv. I do wonder if a horse with such extravagant movement in front will ever look completely right" behind as physically it's impossible for both halves to match, if you see what I mean. However, to me Totilas didn't look comfortable and certainly isn't performing as he did in former days. So sad but I do think it demonstrates that the lovely relaxed fluid motion of a happy horse like Valegro makes watching some horses quite a difficult experience.


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## atlantis (14 August 2015)

I saw the video on FB many times. It was shared over and over and over before it was pulled. So many people spotting the unlevel steps behind. 

If you go to the results page you can look at the score sheets for each rider and he got 6's for his extended trot, all of them... So some of the judges at least must have spotted it!!


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## atlantis (14 August 2015)

Results for Totilas 

http://results.aachen2015.de/show/7/event/34/competition/1/result/31/


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## TheMule (14 August 2015)

I agree with the judge at M
There was some lovely auality work but the irregularity behind really showed up in the extended trot and was rightly slated in the paces mark.
I was half expecting them to ring the bell in the first extended. If Stephen Clarke had been there I think he eould have done- I've seen him elinate less lame horses


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## oldie48 (14 August 2015)

Well the marks tell a bit of a story don't they? Extended trot marks vary from 4.00 to 8.00 and paces vary from 5 -8, this is a huge spread at this level and from international judges! Also 8.5% between total score from highest to lowest, this is massive I'm sure they'll be some discussion about this, surely?


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## Under-the-radar (14 August 2015)

Just seen that he's been withdrawn!


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## ester (14 August 2015)

TheMule said:



			I agree with the judge at M
There was some lovely auality work but the irregularity behind really showed up in the extended trot and was rightly slated in the paces mark.
I was half expecting them to ring the bell in the first extended. If Stephen Clarke had been there I think he eould have done- I've seen him elinate less lame horses
		
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Do you think because they have passed a trot up they are less inclined to do so perhaps?


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## atlantis (14 August 2015)

He's been withdrawn apparently!!!

http://www.eurodressage.com/equestr...ithdrawn-2015-european-dressage-championships


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## dianchi (14 August 2015)

Yep withdrawn,

Hardly surprising the backlash and losing possible Stud fee's

Clearly not done by the rider, as he continued to claim that he was right.

Retirement to stud i would say is on the cards................


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## Wheels (14 August 2015)

Poor horse!  

Yes I saw the video - definitely 'not right' behind and the uneveness in the front end also looked worse than it has done in the past.

Surely now it is time for some riders to seriously look at their training methods!!!


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## SpringArising (14 August 2015)

dianchi said:



			Retirement to stud i would say is on the cards................
		
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Me too. I really hope they'll just let this horse be a horse now. 

I really don't enjoy watching him at all. The whole thing looks forced


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## Clare85 (14 August 2015)

I find it absolutely despicable that 1) he passed the trot up 2) at least one judge did not pull the plug on the test. Sad for the horse, he must lead a wretched life


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## Cortez (14 August 2015)

Clare85 said:



			Sad for the horse, he must lead a wretched life 

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Why do you say that? I'd imagine he's kept just the same as most top level competition horses.


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## Clare85 (14 August 2015)

Cortez said:



			Why do you say that? I'd imagine he's kept just the same as most top level competition horses.
		
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Because his rider and owner are happy to compete him when he is clearly unlevel/unsound. If they care so little about his welfare as to take him into the arena at a top level competition like that, then clearly they are happy to work him like that in every day life.


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## conniegirl (14 August 2015)

Cortez said:



			Why do you say that? I'd imagine he's kept just the same as most top level competition horses.
		
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Locked in a stable and only ever taken out to be exercised on a horse walker or in the school.
That's no life for a horse and I feel desperately sorry for any horse that has to live like that.
They are living beings not machines. Charlotte and Carl have proven that when you let horses have turnout, let them hack out and just be horses you get better results from the horse and a more willing horse.


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## ester (14 August 2015)

Clare85 said:



			Because his rider and owner are happy to compete him when he is clearly unlevel/unsound. If they care so little about his welfare as to take him into the arena at a top level competition like that, then clearly they are happy to work him like that in every day life.
		
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you are assuming he was that unlevel in the warm up/prior to the event - he did pass a veterinary trot up.


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## Clare85 (14 August 2015)

ester said:



			you are assuming he was that unlevel in the warm up/prior to the event - he did pass a veterinary trot up.
		
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Apparently he was held in the trot up initially and then after discussions was allowed through. In any case, at that level the rider should've felt a problem as soon as it arose and put his hand up. Or the judge should've seen a problem and stopped the test.


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## ester (14 August 2015)

Yes I am aware that he was held at the trot up- it happens and he did pass! and I would assume didn't look that bad in the warm up. I think at that level, with that amount of movement and if the horse has passed on a straight line a fair amount has to be put down the tension and his general uneveness contributing to what he looked like in the ring rather than lameness from pain.

It doesn't do his connections any good for him to be seen like that though, but I do wonder if they hadn't withdrawn whether discussions would have been had about whether he should be allowed to continue on his second test if he looked the same.


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## Clare85 (14 August 2015)

If that is the case then I think questions should be raised about whether a horse who becomes so tense under competition pressure that it changes his way of going in such a negative way, should continue to be competed. I believe you have to question the training methods and general care of a horse who becomes so tense under such pressure also.


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## Cortez (14 August 2015)

conniegirl said:



			Locked in a stable and only ever taken out to be exercised on a horse walker or in the school.
That's no life for a horse and I feel desperately sorry for any horse that has to live like that.
They are living beings not machines. Charlotte and Carl have proven that when you let horses have turnout, let them hack out and just be horses you get better results from the horse and a more willing horse.
		
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On one level I agree, and my own horses are not kept like that, but probably the majority of high level competition horses ARE kept stabled. There is a great deal more to the success of Carl Hester's horses than simply their occasional turnout (they are not turned out every day, or for very long), and there is no proof that results are better one way or the other. As an extremely well regarded horse in a professional setup you can be assured that Totilas receives the very best of care on all levels, but it is obvious that he is not level in competition, be that due to stress, less than competant riding, physical impairment or whatever. Turning him out and hacking won't fix that..................


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## AdorableAlice (14 August 2015)

dianchi said:



			Yep withdrawn,

Hardly surprising the backlash and losing possible Stud fee's

Clearly not done by the rider, as he continued to claim that he was right.

Retirement to stud i would say is on the cards................
		
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And at the risk of ridicule, in my opinion there are much better stallions available.  His movement is not correct and never has been.


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## SpringArising (14 August 2015)

Cortez said:



			Totilas receives the very best of care on all levels
		
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Bearing in mind that depends very much on your own definitions of ideals.


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## Cortez (14 August 2015)

SpringArising said:



			Bearing in mind that depends very much on your own definitions of ideals.
		
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No, it is catagorised quite succinctly by various welfare organisations and European law, as some of the more radical animal rights groups found out when they tried to prosecute Totilas' owners some time ago. Horses are kept in many different ways, both in the UK and in other countries, and by no definition could Totilas be said to be poorly managed. I wouldn't keep a horse that way, but I don't agree that he is being abused. The fact that the rider can't seem to understand his scores is concerning/amusing, and I wish that they would just admit defeat and retire the poor thing to stud. Be careful what you wish for (or pay really obscene amounts for); poisoned chalice for the rider, that's for sure..............


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## SpringArising (14 August 2015)

Cortez said:



			No, it is catagorised quite succinctly by various welfare organisations and European law, by no definition could Totilas be said to be poorly managed. I don't agree that he is being abused
		
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I think there is an element of abuse for anything that's locked up for the majority of its life.


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## eggs (14 August 2015)

I believe that EG has previously stated when he had Totilas that he couldn't be turned out.  He certainly is not the only top competition horse that doesn't get turnout.  Doesn't mean I like it.


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## atlantis (14 August 2015)

Cortez said:



			On one level I agree, and my own horses are not kept like that, but probably the majority of high level competition horses ARE kept stabled. There is a great deal more to the success of Carl Hester's horses than simply their occasional turnout (they are not turned out every day, or for very long), and there is no proof that results are better one way or the other. As an extremely well regarded horse in a professional setup you can be assured that Totilas receives the very best of care on all levels, but it is obvious that he is not level in competition, be that due to stress, less than competant riding, physical impairment or whatever. Turning him out and hacking won't fix that..................
		
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Turning him out and hacking him now won't help. This horse (and I am sure most high level competition horses) are not kept in a way that I would keep a horse. 

As for Carl's horses not being turned out every day... Doesn't Barney live out? Or he did for a long time but maybe doesn't now. 

As a teenager I worked for a high level dressage rider, who trained with Carl. Both of her high level horses were turned out every day and we're both wonderful to hack (by me and other staff). All her youngsters were turned out every day and were hacked and jumped. Some people do keep their top level horses that way, and peoples points on here are that things might have been different for Totilas had he ended up in the hands of someone different. Less injuries, less tension and stress, who knows. 

Fwiw (and my opinion is next to unimportant) I don't like the way Undercover goes either. Full of tension and looking ready to explode at any point. (Although his extended walk was pretty relaxed yesterday for him). It's not really inspiring for me to watch really. 

There rant over!!!


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## MyBoyChe (14 August 2015)

Maybe, just maybe, if he had been turned out more from the beginning and allowed to move loosely and freely at liberty for at least some part of each day, he would still be sound.  Ive no idea what his problems are, maybe it would make no difference at all.  I do know that I feel a lot better if I am able to move around more during the day, the one day a week on which I spend all day sat at a desk is the day I feel stiffer and more achy


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## rara007 (14 August 2015)

Or maybe he'd be lamer- it's more common to get acutely injured during turnout than during controlled exercise I think? (Discounting racing!)

We'll never know!


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## Goldenstar (14 August 2015)

atlantis said:



			Turning him out and hacking him now won't help. This horse (and I am sure most high level competition horses) are not kept in a way that I would keep a horse. 

As for Carl's horses not being turned out every day... Doesn't Barney live out? Or he did for a long time but maybe doesn't now. 

As a teenager I worked for a high level dressage rider, who trained with Carl. Both of her high level horses were turned out every day and we're both wonderful to hack (by me and other staff). All her youngsters were turned out every day and were hacked and jumped. Some people do keep their top level horses that way, and peoples points on here are that things might have been different for Totilas had he ended up in the hands of someone different. Less injuries, less tension and stress, who knows. 

Fwiw (and my opinion is next to unimportant) I don't like the way Undercover goes either. Full of tension and looking ready to explode at any point. (Although his extended walk was pretty relaxed yesterday for him). It's not really inspiring for me to watch really. 

There rant over!!!
		
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When I saw Undercover at the Olympics I could not see how EG could influence him the tension was incredible ( he had not had him long at that time ) it was a master class in nursing a very tense horse through a test .
EG has a talent for working with this type of very very hot horse .


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## Pigeon (14 August 2015)

Cortez said:



			No, it is catagorised quite succinctly by various welfare organisations and European law, as some of the more radical animal rights groups found out when they tried to prosecute Totilas' owners some time ago. Horses are kept in many different ways, both in the UK and in other countries, and by no definition could Totilas be said to be poorly managed. I wouldn't keep a horse that way, but I don't agree that he is being abused. The fact that the rider can't seem to understand his scores is concerning/amusing, and I wish that they would just admit defeat and retire the poor thing to stud. Be careful what you wish for (or pay really obscene amounts for); poisoned chalice for the rider, that's for sure..............
		
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By animal keepers of pretty much any other large species, it wouldn't be deemed acceptable. Keeping a large animal in a holding box or a herd animal isolated would be pretty frowned upon. But for some reason that logic doesn't apply to horses. I am with SpringArising that it is cruel. Just because something is legal, or widely practised, doesn't make it right. But this is a discussion for another thread 

I really do feel sorry for Rath (well, I would if he didn't have pots of money and wonderful horses ) because the public was against him from the start, presumably due to the whole 'buying success' thing. His riding has come on a lot, and I for one wouldn't fancy sitting on that horse. I doubt many people could ride one side of him! And after spending that amount of money I can also see why they are reluctant to acknowledge his issues. Again, they need to man up and get it sorted, or bow out gracefully, but I imagine this experience hasn't been easy.

Wouldn't it be fascinating if he could go to Carl and Charlotte?


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## Fellewell (14 August 2015)

atlantis said:



			Some people do keep their top level horses that way, and peoples points on here are that things might have been different for Totilas had he ended up in the hands of someone different. Less injuries, less tension and stress, who knows.QUOTE]

Edward Gal probably knows ;-)

I couldn't understand all the anticipation of the Valegro/Totilas showdown. It couldn't happen IMO.

Still, I very much enjoyed Gal's test on Glock's Undercover.
		
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## atlantis (14 August 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			When I saw Undercover at the Olympics I could not see how EG could influence him the tension was incredible ( he had not had him long at that time ) it was a master class in nursing a very tense horse through a test .
EG has a talent for working with this type of very very hot horse .
		
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Oh I totally agree. I am very envious of Gal's position, core strength and he has amazing control over these horses. I'm not sure many others could ride these horses at all. Although maybe if they lived out as youngsters they wouldn't be as tense. One wonders whether if the management of these horses was different they'd be more relaxed. Nobody knows as you're not able to bring the horse up twice and compare!!! 

Still don't enjoy watching him though. Charlotte makes dressage look enjoyable and like dancing. Gal (and undercover) reminds me of a marching army. Very precise but not much freedom or suppleness!!


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## atlantis (14 August 2015)

Edward Gal probably knows ;-)

I couldn't understand all the anticipation of the Valegro/Totilas showdown. It couldn't happen IMO.

Still, I very much enjoyed Gal's test on Glock's Undercover.[/QUOTE]

I often wonder if these top riders ever read these musings of us mere mortals on these forums!!!

Although I am aware of my limitations which is why I bought a nice calm Connie lol!!! 

His test yesterday was by far the best test undercover has done that I've seen in a championship.


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## oldie48 (14 August 2015)

Surely the nub of the problem is that whilst judges continue to reward horses that are presented like this then the training methods etc will continue. Totilus, who to many reasonably knowledgeable people (and not so knowledgeable, that's me!) on this forum appeared lame behind but was still given marks of over 81% by 2 judges including the British one. What on earth does this say about the quality of judging? I think I'll take the old TB out, he'd do a lovely test if you ignore the arthritis in his hocks!


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## Clare85 (14 August 2015)

oldie48 said:



			Surely the nub of the problem is that whilst judges continue to reward horses that are presented like this then the training methods etc will continue. Totilus, who to many reasonably knowledgeable people (and not so knowledgeable, that's me!) on this forum appeared lame behind but was still given marks of over 81% by 2 judges including the British one. What on earth does this say about the quality of judging? I think I'll take the old TB out, he'd do a lovely test if you ignore the arthritis in his hocks!
		
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I quite agree.


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## Cortez (14 August 2015)

Hasn't Totilas beaten Valegro in the past, though? Two very different horses, conformationally, movement-wise and obviously in the training, management and riding. Bit like apples and oranges. I know which one I prefer


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## GermanyJo (14 August 2015)

In the German press they are saying one of the vets did not want to pass him at the trot up,  the chief official is quoted as saying she agreed for him to continue as it is not a vetting to buy the horse!!! There is alot of bad press here in Germany on the net....Think there will be alot more discussion to come..... He did not take part in any of the competitions which are normally compulsory to get in the team and therefore has not had any dope tests done...... Stinks in my opinion and I think the bell should have been rung to stop him


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## kassieg (14 August 2015)

he was badly lame behind ! 

what worries me is that the rider didn't notice & thought he should get higher marks :|


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## Orangehorse (14 August 2015)

I could see the uneven steps during the test, but not before he went into the arena, (from the video) so it must be something that shows up when he is being asked for more effort.  As for the judges not agreeing - the old story! -  they are looking from different places around the arena, so they get a different viewpoint.


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## oldie48 (14 August 2015)

Sorry I don't agree.  There is too much difference between a 4 and an 8 and the moves where in different  parts of the arena. 6 and 8, well possibly but overall 8.5% difference, I don't think so and paces 5 - 8, sufficient to good, no, we are talking about highly trained FEI judges not unlisted judges doing pony club! efore he went into the arena, (from the video) so it must be something that shows up when he is being asked for more effort.  As for the judges not agreeing - the old story! -  they are looking from different places around the arena, so they get a different viewpoint.[/QUOTE]


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## GermanyJo (14 August 2015)

Again, one of the vets at the trot up did not want to pass him as he looked lame...So It is not just a tension thing


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## splashgirl45 (14 August 2015)

its just a shame for the horse, he really tried in there and he must have been uncomfortable.  I know I was very sad watching him even though I have never been a fan of his trot work as the fronts are too extravagant  IMO.....I also didn't enjoy Edward gals test, horse very tense in neck and behind the vertical most of the test with his chin almost touching his neck, I know even valegro can be behind the vertical but he seems more relaxed and he is never as far behind as Edwards horse....however I do think Edward is a brilliant rider but would just like the horses frame longer.  cant wait for sunday afternoon and hope the no commentary option on the red button will work!!!


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## popsdosh (14 August 2015)

The horse IMO has never been sound when competing right from day one . I am afraid that the judges were awarding him high marks on the back of over exaggerated movement that is in no way natural,it then became difficult for judges not to award top marks as they were like a flock of sheep.
Not sure many top breeders have used him as a stallion expecting to sell at top level ,most of his offspring have been produced below top level and sold to another flock of sheep who follow the fashion created by said high marks,I predict there will be lots of buyers losing a packet on these horses in years to come.


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## Barnacle (14 August 2015)

What saddens me is that no one tried to stop the test when he was so obviously lame - rider, judges... No one. I understand how he got through the vetting as the lameness only became obvious into the test. At least he's been withdrawn now I suppose!

As I understand it, however, he may not be in pain. He has suffered some injuries and may simply be short behind from bad healing. Nonetheless, he should not have scored as well as he did!

Concerning horse welfare and being boxed... It's become increasingly widely accepted that keeping horses boxed is very stressful and bad for their health. There are a few different studies that show boxed horses are more anxious, several showing greater tendency to stereotypies and at least one that shows a greater incidence of injuries in horses kept traditionally boxed compared to those in a shared accommodation (like the big covered corrals they use in parts of Europe for broodmares - I forget what they are called). 

We are stuck with tradition at the moment but I think it's only a matter of time before the absurdity is recognised and things start to change. You couldn't keep a Labrador in confinement like that without being reported... Imagine if you kept a Lab in a stall-sized room all alone and only let it out for 1 hour a day on a lead in a confined, uniform space while controlling its every move... You might not be doing anything illegal but you'd sure as hell get an earful. And that's a small animal...That you can do so with an animal as big and sociable as a horse is outrageous in my opinion.

If you scaled things accordingly so the dog was in a kennel just big enough to turn around... Well then perhaps we are actually venturing into illegal territory (I would hope!). Certainly unacceptable territory in most peoples' eyes...


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## LittleRooketRider (14 August 2015)

He doesn't look uncomfortable he looks hopping lame! Shame on rath for not pulling up and shame on the judges for not ringing the bell.

The rider had made himself look even more like an ignorant twit by bemoaning his lesser score and claiming it was a better test than another... Particularly when ps has said he was evidently lame


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## Tiddlypom (15 August 2015)

Very depressing. Mind boggling that the 7 judges allowed the test to proceed to its conclusion.

Anyone know the protocol for stopping a test when multiple judges are involved? Could any one of them have stopped it mid test, or would it be down to the most senior officiating judge?


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## dibbin (15 August 2015)

He was unsound and shouldn't have been competing. Poor boy.


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## GermanyJo (15 August 2015)

Barnacle....He was lame at the trot up, not just in the test... One of the vets wanted to throw him out!,  the comment from the Chief official was that "it wasn't a vetting for purchase "!! And let him pass...


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## old hand (15 August 2015)

Quite frankly apart from the lameness in both hind legs, worse in the near hind, the rider is far too heavy too.  The horse has very little bone below the knee and probably up to about ten stone tops.  I remember an insurer telling me years ago that she was pleased I was show jumping my horse because it was dressage horses that are paid out on most and their hind legs are the most likely to go wrong.  I had always assumed jumpers to be more at risk before that.  Heavy riders just make all that worse no matter how good they are supposed to be.  However, I have my own views as to his competence, he certainly wouldn't be riding any of mine.


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## Lyle (16 August 2015)

This video has a few interesting angles. (skip the lady talking, Totals starts at about 2 minutes) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fl26eNUzbkg

I feel sorry for Rath, IMO this horse is a product of Gal, a talented horse manufactured into a circus act. What toll this has taken on him prematurely, who knows!


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## Goldenstar (16 August 2015)

AdorableAlice said:



			And at the risk of ridicule, in my opinion there are much better stallions available.  His movement is not correct and never has been.
		
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I agree there are much much better stallions .
Nothing that's been done with this horse since he was sold has done anything other than reduce his value at stud .
They would have done better if they had sent him straight to stud .


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## _EVS_ (18 August 2015)

Just seen that his retirement has been officially announced due to him having edema (?) on the bone?? I hope he has the retirement he deserves x


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## dianchi (18 August 2015)

Very pleased to see this news!


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## Goldenstar (18 August 2015)

dianchi said:



			Very pleased to see this news!
		
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Not sure his future out of the public eye will be any rosier .


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## Cortez (18 August 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			Not sure his future out of the public eye will be any rosier .
		
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Well, he's a very valuable horse so I would imagine they'll be looking after him, don't you? PS has the largest breeding business in the world, so it's not like they don't know how to manage stallions.


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## Goldenstar (18 August 2015)

Cortez said:



			Well, he's a very valuable horse so I would imagine they'll be looking after him, don't you? PS has the largest breeding business in the world, so it's not like they don't know how to manage stallions.
		
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I  don't doubt they know how to manage him for maximum profit and his safety  I hope he can get some turnout and exercise if he can cope with it .


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## crabbymare (18 August 2015)

Cortez said:



			Well, he's a very valuable horse so I would imagine they'll be looking after him, don't you? PS has the largest breeding business in the world, so it's not like they don't know how to manage stallions.
		
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He certainly has a huge place with experienced handlers, I doubt that the image most people would want to see of his retirement from competition will be the one he sees in reality though


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## Cortez (18 August 2015)

crabbymare said:



			He certainly has a huge place with experienced handlers, I doubt that the image most people would want to see of his retirement from competition will be the one he sees in reality though
		
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You mean the sunny green fields full of bunny rabbits and bluebirds? No, I don't think that will be what happens, but then most serving stallions are not kept that way in commercial establishments, and neither is my own stallion who firmly prefers being in, excercised and kept fit. A horse which has been stabled all his life does not necessarily take to being out in a field and some would be stressed if made to do so. I am quite sure that he will be very well looked after, why would anyone not carefully mind such a valuable animal?

All a bit moot since none of us actually own the horse, do we?


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## Tiddlypom (18 August 2015)

I wonder how valuable he is? A freaky mover with soundness issues and a tricky temperament?

You'd be a very brave breeder to send your top class mare to him.


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## crabbymare (18 August 2015)

Tiddlypom said:



			I wonder how valuable he is? A freaky mover with soundness issues and a tricky temperament?

You'd be a very brave breeder to send your top class mare to him.
		
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Look at it the other way, he had normal movement at 5 years old. he made it at top class at I imagine 8 years old and stayed there (ok on and off at the end but sometimes from rider illness or injuries from using the phantom) and with 2 different riders so although yes he was hot and not everyones ride but is that considered tricky when you are looking at top level stallions? his offspring have already passed their licensing so on the breeding side you could say he has from the first crops been a success so if you were a mare owner you could easily make the opposite case  Personally I would not put a mare to him but I can see why other people would


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## Goldenstar (18 August 2015)

He's a trakehner a very hot type of warm blood , his grand sire was Kostolany who was a lovely ( IMO ) example of the breed .
Personally and all these things are personal I prefer Damon Hill .
Not that I could ride that sort of horse .


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## Cortez (18 August 2015)

Tiddlypom said:



			I wonder how valuable he is? A freaky mover with soundness issues and a tricky temperament?

You'd be a very brave breeder to send your top class mare to him.
		
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He's sired some of the top premium foals in the UK, last I looked, also in Germany, and Holland, and France.


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## Cortez (18 August 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			He's a trakehner a very hot type of warm blood , his grand sire was Kostolany who was a lovely ( IMO ) example of the breed .
Personally and all these things are personal I prefer Damon Hill .
Not that I could ride that sort of horse .
		
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I used to breed Trakehners, a while ago now, and one of my stallions was a half brother of Kostolany's. Not so very hot, but sensitive and inclined to try too hard; much more complicated than the Hannoverians which were about then (they're hotter these days, I believe).


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## Goldenstar (18 August 2015)

Cortez said:



			I used to breed Trakehners, a while ago now, and one of my stallions was a half brother of Kostolany's. Not so very hot, but sensitive and inclined to try too hard; much more complicated than the Hannoverians which were about then (they're hotter these days, I believe).
		
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What colour was he ? Your stallion .


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## Cortez (18 August 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			What colour was he ? Your stallion .
		
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Very dark bay.


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## Goldenstar (18 August 2015)

Cortez said:



			Very dark bay.
		
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Lovely .
A proper trakehner .


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## Cortez (18 August 2015)

These are nearly 20 years old now, but here are some of his foals...........


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## PorkChop (18 August 2015)

Cortez - what super progeny


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## Goldenstar (18 August 2015)

Their lovely .


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## Pigeon (18 August 2015)

popsdosh said:



			The horse IMO has never been sound when competing right from day one . I am afraid that the judges were awarding him high marks on the back of over exaggerated movement that is in no way natural,it then became difficult for judges not to award top marks as they were like a flock of sheep.
Not sure many top breeders have used him as a stallion expecting to sell at top level ,most of his offspring have been produced below top level and sold to another flock of sheep who follow the fashion created by said high marks,I predict there will be lots of buyers losing a packet on these horses in years to come.
		
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I have seen a couple of his babies in the flesh and they were wonderful. I'm not a fan of Toto, but these youngsters oozed PRESENCE. I wonder to what extent his movement is innate, and how much is from being over-produced? I guess we will find out soon as I think the four year olds will be out competing any minute now.


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## tristar (19 August 2015)

I am very torn between what I saw totilas do  ridden and himself as the horse he could have been,  I saw a beautiful filly by him, it was outstanding and already sold.


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