# Whip him! I't won't hurt him!



## Andrea E. (17 October 2017)

Hi all, 

I was a bit unsure about whether to post this or not but I've come away a little shaken from a riding lesson last weekend. 

I'm 26 and am returning to riding after years out and have been having lesson. I signed up to a RS because they had good hacking and good reviews. 

Last satuday I decided to try one of their lessons. Now I've always ridded quite sensitive horses and am quite a quiet rider, probably a little too soft now as I'm rebuilding my confidence. I wanted to take lessons because I want to learn to use the aids correctly and improve my contact and informed the instructor of this.

I spent most of my lesson listening to the instructor telling me not to be afraid of 'giving him a really good kick' and to 'whip him! It won't hurt him!' 

This was because I was having difficulties in the canter on a horse id never ridden before and was probably because I was throwing the horse off balance. 

Never have I ever been asked to whip a horse on the hind before in a lesson or otherwise. Am I being too soft and soppy? I know horses will try to get out of work if they can but honestly?!


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## Beausmate (17 October 2017)

I'd be looking for a new RS.


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## Andrea E. (17 October 2017)

Beausmate said:



			I'd be looking for a new RS.
		
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I plan to. 

Unfortunatley, the RS Run on a membership basis and I've only just joined. I did my research and have enjoyed the hacking and workshops but this was the first, and last, lesson I've had with them ( you could only have one lesson or hack before joining and I guess I chose wrong). The minimum membership period is 3 months so I'm a bit stuck


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## SpringArising (17 October 2017)

If you were bouncing around like a sack of $hit, the horse confused, and you on the verge of tumbling off then give him a smack is terrible teaching. 

But theres also nothing wrong with a smack behind the leg to back it up either, providing youre not stopping the horse from moving forwards.


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## meleeka (17 October 2017)

Perhaps ask for a different horse next time then youll know If its your riding or not. Whilst theres nothing wrong with a tap to reinforce aids if the horse isnt listening, but the phrase whip him makes me think shes old school who hasnt gone with modern methods which dont involve bullying.


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## Andrea E. (17 October 2017)

SpringArising said:



			If you were bouncing around like a sack of $hit, the horse confused, and you on the verge of tumbling off then give him a smack is terrible teaching. 

But theres also nothing wrong with a smack behind the leg to back it up either, providing youre not stopping the horse from moving forwards.
		
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I'm sure some might say that I was XD. 

I just felt awful because I could feel the horse offer the transition but then drop it which leads me to believe that it was more my fault than his. I've only hacked out so working in an arena is very new to me and I find myself doing the stranges things as I get a but flustered. As for the smacking, I'm genuinly asking as I don't know. I have never really used it before exept to tap it on the saddle if the horse doesn't respont to the leg.


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## tallyho! (17 October 2017)

in my best possible impersonation of monty python.... Run Awaaaaayyyyyy... Shame you can't but at least you've recognised that it's not going to get you anywhere with your riding.

Agree try different horse and try some books in between about rider balance/biomechanics to see if you can work out what might be going wrong in your riding. Firm believer in rider can influence horse... try Sylvia Loch, Mary Wanless, Sally Swift, Philippe Karl, Klimke.... a few to get on with. These are more positive riding techniques rather than the whack n kick club.


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## WandaMare (17 October 2017)

I would give the riding school some feedback and tell them you felt uncomfortable with some of the 'commands'. If they are worth their fees then they should be happy to listen to you and agree a way forward which suits both you and their instructors.


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## Andrea E. (17 October 2017)

tallyho! said:



			in my best possible impersonation of monty python.... Run Awaaaaayyyyyy... Shame you can't but at least you've recognised that it's not going to get you anywhere with your riding.

Agree try different horse and try some books in between about rider balance/biomechanics to see if you can work out what might be going wrong in your riding. Firm believer in rider can influence horse... try Sylvia Loch, Mary Wanless, Sally Swift, Philippe Karl, Klimke.... a few to get on with. These are more positive riding techniques rather than the whack n kick club.
		
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Thanks! I have actually just purchased _The Balanced Horse_ by Sylvia Loch so will be tucking into that, will deffinitely look into the others.

I might try asking for a different horse or I might just stick with hacking an keep taking lessons at my old RS, they're good lessons but only have ponies and Dressage schoolmasters for their advanced lessons. I guess I was a bit dazzled by the other RS's preatty 16hh+s :redface3: Won't be making that mistake again. 

Ta!


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## Andrea E. (17 October 2017)

WandaMare said:



			I would give the riding school some feedback and tell them you felt uncomfortable with some of the 'commands'. If they are worth their fees then they should be happy to listen to you and agree a way forward which suits both you and their instructors.
		
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I think I will. I'm just worried if they share her opinion and then I've got 2 1/2 months of awkward rides or not show up and fork out £200pm for nothing. It's a very small yard and totally oversubscribed. Setting up the membership was actually a very long and tedious process but I still though I was winning as it was obviously such an amazing place since everyone want's to ride there...


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## conniegirl (17 October 2017)

Andrea E. said:



			I think I will. I'm just worried if they share her opinion and then I've got 2 1/2 months of awkward rides or not show up and fork out £200pm for nothing. It's a very small yard and totally oversubscribed. Setting up the membership was actually a very long and tedious process but I still though I was winning as it was obviously such an amazing place since everyone want's to ride there...
		
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You don&#8217;t happen to be in Hertfordshire do you?


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## Andrea E. (17 October 2017)

conniegirl said:



			You don&#8217;t happen to be in Hertfordshire do you?
		
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No, London. So hard to find good rides.


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## LadySam (17 October 2017)

Andrea E. said:



			I think I will. I'm just worried if they share her opinion and then I've got 2 1/2 months of awkward rides or not show up and fork out £200pm for nothing. It's a very small yard and totally oversubscribed. Setting up the membership was actually a very long and tedious process but I still though I was winning as it was obviously such an amazing place since everyone want's to ride there...
		
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Then wait until you're on your way out.  Enjoy your 2 1/2 months of hacking and don't hold back when you tell them why you're leaving.


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## Andrea E. (17 October 2017)

LadySam said:



			Then wait until you're on your way out.  Enjoy your 2 1/2 months of hacking and don't hold back when you tell them why you're leaving.
		
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That's a thought, I think I will. Thanks!


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## claret09 (17 October 2017)

totally agree. enjoy the hacking but don't have another lesson



LadySam said:



			Then wait until you're on your way out.  Enjoy your 2 1/2 months of hacking and don't hold back when you tell them why you're leaving.
		
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## Goldenstar (17 October 2017)

Do they have another trainer ?
Then perhaps see if you can swop . I would be giving it another try see if it was a one off.


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## GirlFriday (18 October 2017)

If it is the place I'm thinking of (may not be, I'm out of date) then they did have some half way decent instructors and a reasonable programme (for a RS in that kind of location) of lectures etc a few years back. Plus, for horses stabled as much as they are they were pretty happy.

So, whilst the standard of teaching in your lesson wasn't up to much I'd suggest you try one or two more with different instructors as well as different horses. And pop along to any of the free lectures too. Enjoy the hacking anyway 
xx

PS Of course it will hurt him - that is how whipping works! - if it isn't making things uncomfortable for the horse it isn't doing anything (which is not how I prefer to ride - but then I went to an even more outrageous yard which didn't allow clients to carry sticks until they'd been there years)


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## Theocat (18 October 2017)

Hm - although I do agree with the replies above, it is also possible that you were being a complete passenger and not giving any kind of aid that any self respecting  riding school horse would deign to notice. A horse doing trot-faster-until-you-ask-me-properly isn't going to help your balance or confidence at all, so I can see that perhaps the instructor was giving an "over strong" instruction in the hope that, by the time you'd added a dose of softness, it would have become the tap behind the leg that she wanted you to give, and get the horse into a much more comfortable canter.

I can't be the only person on this forum who has, on occasion, exhorted the rider to give a "big kick" - because the reality is that instructions to nudge/squeeze/tap are completely ignored. On every single occasion, "big kick" has resulted in, at worst, a nudge. As confidence and balance improve, so do the aids - and the instructions can return to normal!

I'd try a few lessons on the lunge.


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## ponyparty (18 October 2017)

Hmmm, it doesn't sound great, the way she was telling you to do this. But as Theocat says, perhaps it was to encourage you to give clearer aids. Some riding school horses will take the P if they think they can get away with it; and there is really nothing wrong with giving a sharp tap with the whip if your leg aid is being ignored (you say you've only ever tapped one on the saddle... that's not something i've ever been taught to do). So perhaps you are being a bit soft. For that amount of money, I'd at least give them another chance - on a different horse, and/or with a different instructor - just to check! 

"Whip him" does sound like she means give him a good beating though, it's a strange way to phrase it, for an instructor!


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## TGM (18 October 2017)

Got to agree with Theocat - riding school horses can get a bit crafty after a while, and soon learn which riders they can take the mickey with.  Usually once they realise  that the rider will give them a firm reminder with the stick, they suddenly decide to listen a bit more carefully to the aids in future!


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## scats (18 October 2017)

I think it was the phrasing really.  Yes, sometimes horses, particularly school horses who may have gone a bit dead to the leg, might need a firm tap.
I've taught in several riding schools, I used to do a bit of freelance cover for them if they were short staffed, and it always saddened me how many instructors I heard telling people to 'kick/smack'. What a wonderful way to teach people, particularly the next generation of riders, that a horse is just something we get on and boot/hit to make it do what we want.
Re-phrasing things can make all the difference.


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## Ambers Echo (18 October 2017)

I think unless you saw the lesson it is very hard to know what the RI was trying to achieve. I try to ride as softly as possible but will up the pressure as needed to be effective. I think of it as ask nicely, ask firmly then insist. As far as I am concerned my horse chooses how much pressure it's going to take to I have no problem giving a good kick or smack if they choose not to respond to the first 2 subtler cues. I then always offer them the chance to go off the 'ask nicely' cue again next time. As a result my horses are generally off the leg and I can then ride how I want to ride again - ie with subtle cues -  which is far nicer for both of us.

When I am teaching my children they have also learnt to always be soft with the first cue but struggle to be effective if the pony does not respond so I do hear myself saying 'BOOT HIM' or 'SMACK HIM' when the pony is behind the leg  and ignoring softer cues. One pony in particular is very behind the leg when you first get on and you really need to get him up to the bridle and travelling. Then suddenly the handbrake comes off and he is fluid and forward and lovely. So I can imagine if I was teaching on a horse like that who was ignoring the rider and who I knew would soften and move forward with 2 or 3 'insist' cues then I could imagine saying 'give him a good smack' and a rider feeling like I am telling them to constantly hit. When in fact the reverse is true; the failure to use enough pressure on the rare occasions it's needed means a horse that needs constant nagging. 

Not saying that is what your situation was - maybe the RI really was just a boot 'em and whack 'em type. But it might be worth asking her about it in a genuinely curious way. Any instructor should be more than happy to explain why they are asking you to ride in a certain way.


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## Andrea E. (18 October 2017)

That's fair. I've just started lessons in march this year and tried lessons in 3 other RSs but this was totally different. I've been on cheeky ponies in my other lessons and I totally admit that I am a big softie and perhaps a bit of a passanger, I'll take that. But what I struggle with, and this is just a general thought, is that I'm trying to learn to do things right; sit tall, heels down, toes up and all that jazz and then I I get these sort of instructons and I can't see how the two marry up. But I'm learning. 

I've got plenty of time to think about it though.


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## Andrea E. (18 October 2017)

ponyparty said:



			Hmmm, it doesn't sound great, the way she was telling you to do this. But as Theocat says, perhaps it was to encourage you to give clearer aids. Some riding school horses will take the P if they think they can get away with it; and there is really nothing wrong with giving a sharp tap with the whip if your leg aid is being ignored (you say you've only ever tapped one on the saddle... that's not something i've ever been taught to do). So perhaps you are being a bit soft. For that amount of money, I'd at least give them another chance - on a different horse, and/or with a different instructor - just to check! 

"Whip him" does sound like she means give him a good beating though, it's a strange way to phrase it, for an instructor!
		
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The saddle tapping is just something I found worked with a cob I rode a some years ago. He was usually really good and in most cases just carrying the crop was enoug. But if he was feeling unresponsive I would keep my leg on then tap the saddle, more making an annoying noise, and he would normally respond to that and I'd take pressure off. I'm very new to lessons so I'm sure there are more effective ways... It worked though.


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## ponyparty (19 October 2017)

Andrea E. said:



			The saddle tapping is just something I found worked with a cob I rode a some years ago. He was usually really good and in most cases just carrying the crop was enoug. But if he was feeling unresponsive I would keep my leg on then tap the saddle, more making an annoying noise, and he would normally respond to that and I'd take pressure off. I'm very new to lessons so I'm sure there are more effective ways... It worked though. 

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Oh yeah i don't dispute that would work with some horses - a tap on the saddle, or on your boot, to make a smacking sound, to give them the impression they are about to be smacked with the whip. But I don't think it's something that would be taught as "correct". Mind you, neither should giving the horse a good beating..!
If my horse is feeling sluggish, I will carry a whip, but I never have to use it - but there are some horses (particularly savvy riding school horses) that definitely do require a short sharp reminder that you are asking them to do something, and they should be listening, the first time they are asked. Let us know how you get on, if you do go back.


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## Andrea E. (19 October 2017)

ponyparty said:



			Oh yeah i don't dispute that would work with some horses - a tap on the saddle, or on your boot, to make a smacking sound, to give them the impression they are about to be smacked with the whip. But I don't think it's something that would be taught as "correct". Mind you, neither should giving the horse a good beating..!
If my horse is feeling sluggish, I will carry a whip, but I never have to use it - but there are some horses (particularly savvy riding school horses) that definitely do require a short sharp reminder that you are asking them to do something, and they should be listening, the first time they are asked. Let us know how you get on, if you do go back.
		
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Will do. I'll definitely be going back as I do really enjoy their hacking and I have a 2 1/2 months commitment anyway. It is a good yard with a lovely community and horses shiny and happy. They have excellent events but they are more focused on leisure riding. I was just a bit taken aback by the lesson and think I'd rather have them elsewhere. Ultimately I want to loan a horse and have a freelance instructor 1-2  times a week. That way I can get to know the horse and the horse me and we can sort through our differences. 

Thanks for your suggestions. X


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## Wishful (20 October 2017)

To an extent the RS instructors know their horses - and some of them will need to know that the rider will actually insist otherwise they will take the mickey.  I ride a mare who can go really nicely but unless she knows you will be determined she will ignore you completely and tow you to the nearest patch of grass/tree.    So being firm early on means no nagging later (and a chance to sit nice and tall) but being too soft at the beginning means nagging all lesson.

It's also kinder to use the whip once appropriately than nag all lesson...

There's also the need to exaggerate corrections - like lean back for someone who is tipped forward.  It's impossible to use small aids if there's lots of extraneous movements possibly larger than the intended aid for the horse to filter out.


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## cootuk (23 October 2017)

A lot of RS horses can be quite dead to the leg from the number of new riders who kick rather than squeeze.
They can also switch off very quickly whilst waiting their turn to do the next bit.
They can also judge the rider and take the mick.
A sharp crack can wake them up if squeezes then a good kick don't.
Sometimes just giving a sharp crack on your boot can be enough with the sound.
It's not something i would do a lot, but just when I notice they're not responding to leg and need that instant wake-me-up.


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## J_sarahd (23 October 2017)

Andrea E. said:



			No, London. So hard to find good rides.
		
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It's not south west London is it? If it is, I used to work at a riding school there and the instructors, especially in the lessons, do teach their riders to be quite 'aggressive', so to speak. Although, that being said, like a lot of people have suggested, riding school ponies do get dead to the leg and sometimes do need a quick tap to wake them up. I used to ride at a riding school and so many of the horses would need a tap with the whip and they'd be okay after that, especially the ones that were ridden by a range of different experiences.


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