# Any one else's unshod/barefoot horses feeling their feet in this weather?



## Mince Pie (14 July 2012)

As title really  I'm finding that cobby is really starting to feel his feet at the moment, he's on a barefoot diet and has time in so his feet can dry - I've put him on the shoeing list for next week to have fronts on for the first time since I bought him 5 1/2 years ago!


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## Cortez (14 July 2012)

Not any more; had her shod on Friday and she walked away sound - having hobbled in very sore indeed. She's been unshod for the past 18 months and nothing has changed except the weather, rotten!


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## katie_southwest (14 July 2012)

Nope my mare seems to be fine  
She only trips when she is gawping around and not looking where she is going, not because she is feeling her feet


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## HashRouge (14 July 2012)

Mine's no different either. Mind you I can't ride her as she's lame anyway (unrelated to feet)


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## Tr0uble (14 July 2012)

Yes! Spongey coronet bands and cracked heels :-(


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## itsonlyme (14 July 2012)

Mine are all fine  Didn't think they would be cos we've got more grass than they're able to keep on top of!


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## Arizahn (14 July 2012)

I too may be having the shoes put back on...going to discuss it with the farrier on Tuesday first.


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## Pearlsasinger (14 July 2012)

I've just had my mare's fronts taken off.  I'm not riding atm because of a whiplash injury so took her for a walk today, down the stony lane and up & down the road in a circular route.  She coped fine, her shoes have been off a week.  We had her hinds taken off 18 months ago to introduce her to the herd and never had them put back on.  We changed her diet to our usual high fibre, low sugar one, at the same time.  She did have rather tender feet at first, so I was really pleased today that she had no problems.  The farrier is prepared to come back at short notice and put the shoes back on but thinks she will cope.


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## nikkimariet (14 July 2012)

Ours are all fine 

Bruce's fronts have flared slightly, but still rock hard and sound on tarmac and gravel.

Both TB's still rock crunching and without a care in the world.


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## ester (14 July 2012)

no, its interesting because the last time the weather did this and their routine was disrupted with being in a bit more etc was when he was footy but right now he is doing pretty well (he isn't rock crunching yet anyway).


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## willhegofirst (14 July 2012)

My lad is sore, but he was trimmed a bit short last week, and I think he is sugar sensitive, and as the grass is like Spring grass at the mo I think this is his problem, he is fine with his boots on.


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## Sneedy (14 July 2012)

My chap is much better since adding mag ox to his diet (was very footy at beginning of june)......but then, he's also in at night so feet get chance to dry out.


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## Kirwil (14 July 2012)

On the move both of ours seem fine, they only go out in the day so dry out at night but one is a bit sensitive when I pick his feet out and the front frogs in particular seemed soft on him.


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## Arizahn (14 July 2012)

Front frogs here tooMay just be due to being trimmed, I suppose...


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## Mince Pie (14 July 2012)

Ok guys, seems to be him then - he's out at night and in during the day with soaked haylage. He gets a small feed of dengie good doer chaff, crushed oats and linseed (was footy before the oats) with some limestone flour to balance.
Last few weeks he has been a bit pottery on the stony paths but really strides out when on grass, farrier has ruled out LGL.


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## Nocturnal (14 July 2012)

Don't know about the TB, as he doesn't leave the field. The kiddo is still turning boulders to dust with his immense feet. If anything, his collateral grooves have gotten deeper; hoof pick barely reaches the bottom, now!


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## cptrayes (14 July 2012)

It bugs the life out of me that people think horses that were sound all winter are now unsound because of the rain, and putting shoes on.

IT'S THE GRASS!!!   Or you might have let them get thrush.

Shoes will mask the issues, they won't solve the problem. If your newly shod horses go on to get get full blown laminitis you will have no-one to blame but yourselves.


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## cptrayes (14 July 2012)

Broke_But_Happy said:



			farrier has ruled out LGL.
		
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On what basis?

Horses with LGL are not usually sensitive to hoof testers and there are no other symptoms than footiness, which you have. How can your farrier have ruled it out?


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## Mince Pie (14 July 2012)

I'm well aware that grass is a contributing factor CPTrayes, hence the reason he is in a field with sparse grazing overnight when the sugars are lower. Correct me if I'm wrong but nob molassed chaff and linseed is a good diet for 'barefoot' horses?? The haylage is soaked for nearly 20 hours to get rid of all the sugars - can't use hay as even soaked hay makes him cough.

Also if you bothered to read my last post we (the farrier and I) have already ruled out LGL and he is only very slightly overweight which is being worked on.

We ruled it out by trotting him up after a week of being turned out during the day to see if there was any change. We also walked him up a gravel track both in hand and ridden. There was no change. I trust my farrier implicitly so if he says there is no LGL then I believe him.


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## dreamcometrue (14 July 2012)

Why would the weather make a difference?  

My horse is unshod and she is always fine, whatever the weather.


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## dumpling (14 July 2012)

Mine is shod and has fabulous feet, yet has a loose shoe! Never lost a shoe or had anything like that in his life. Definitely weather related i'd say.


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## cptrayes (14 July 2012)

Broke_But_Happy said:



			I'm well aware that grass is a contributing factor CPTrayes, hence the reason he is in a field with sparse grazing overnight when the sugars are lower. Correct me if I'm wrong but nob molassed chaff and linseed is a good diet for 'barefoot' horses?? The haylage is soaked for nearly 20 hours to get rid of all the sugars - can't use hay as even soaked hay makes him cough.

Also if you bothered to read my last post we (the farrier and I) have already ruled out LGL and he is only very slightly overweight which is being worked on.
		
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You have not answered my question.* HOW *have you ruled out LGL? If you have come up with a reliable test for it, we'd all love to know, because as far as I know there isn't one at the moment except to totally remove the horse from grass and see if it gets better.

Your horse is already fat, by your own admission, which makes him a loaded gun as far as LGL is concerned in warm wet grass growing weather. 

Your definition of "sparse" may not be mine. It is amazing how fast the lawn can grow in this weather, and all that growth in any lawn is being eaten off in any "sparse" grazing. 

If your horse was mine I would have him off the grass completely for three days and see how unhappy he was on the stones then.  You've had him nearly six years and one spot of footiness and on go a set of shoes? Makes no sense to me but if you want to waste your money that way and possibly risk your horse going lami without you being able to see the warning signs that's entirely up to you.


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## Mince Pie (14 July 2012)

Cptrayes I have edited my post 

He has been footy for about 4 weeks, since before we moved yards. When we moved we were required to spend 72 hours in for him to be wormed - no change in his footiness.

He is very slightly overweight and it is being worked on.


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## cptrayes (14 July 2012)

Broke_But_Happy said:



			He has been footy for about 4 weeks, since before we moved yards. When we moved we were required to spend 72 hours in for him to be wormed - no change in his footiness.

He is very slightly overweight and it is being worked on.
		
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If I was in your shoes with a suddenly unhappy horse after 6 years of barefoot I would be testing for Cushings and Insulin Resistance before I would be masking his problems with shoes.  If your photo is recent it looks as if he did not grow a good summer coat? Does he twitch or get irritated if you squeeze the top of his neck just in front of the wither?

Worming can in itself cause a sensitive horse to go footie. It is well documented on barefoot forums. 




Broke_But_Happy said:



			We ruled it out by trotting him up after a week of being turned out during the day to see if there was any change. We also walked him up a gravel track both in hand and ridden. There was no change. I trust my farrier implicitly so if he says there is no LGL then I believe him.
		
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That is not a test for LGL it is only a test for changes in footiness between daytime and nightime grazing.

Your farrier would be far from alone in being a farrier who can't tell a case of LGL.  What reason does he give you why your horse is suddenly footie after 6 years or  more?  Are you absolutely sure he doesn't just have a bit of thrush?



ps I am arguing with you because there are only two reasons why I can see that you would have posted. One is that you feel uncomfortable about shoeing a horse who has been without them all this time and want support in your decision to do that. The other is that you are still hoping that you might avoid it.


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## Mince Pie (14 July 2012)

I appreciate that, and you're right - I would rather avoid it, but there are different ways to skin a cat 

Yes that photo was taken yesterday, he always has had cat hairs from when I've had him (I got him when he was 5). 

I'm wondering it is the change in surface that is the problem - just before I left the previous yard a load of large angular stones were used to re-lay the path that we used to get between the field and his stable, we also have similar stones on the bridleways at the new yard. He is happy on tarmac, and rounded stones, but I would have thought that he should be better on the 'sharper' stones after 4 weeks 

I have just ordered 85% mag ox from ebay and will give him a couple of weeks on that before reviewing the situation.

ETA: yes sure it's not thrush - have been treating his feet just in case and farrier (saw him Weds) is happy there is none there.


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## cptrayes (14 July 2012)

OK, mag ox is a great idea     Can I also persuade you to put him on yeast? Brewers yeast is cheaper but varies in quality and palatability. Yea-sacc is what I feed, 15g a day. Yeast has two anti-inflammatory effects on the gut and one of my horses is an out and out laminitic if he is not getting yeast and another that I lost recently was footie without it. 

For the sake of your purse if nothing else, I hope that works for you both 

Lastly, because of the wet, I would also flush his soles and frogs liberally with milton, or 3% hydrogen peroxide, or purple spray or anything else that will zap thrush, daily for a week or two, just in case.



ps if mag ox works and your boy is not a picky feeder, find your local farm supplies shop and buy it as Calmag. It will cost you about £15 for 25 kilos - 3 years supply!


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## Holly Hocks (14 July 2012)

CPT - can I just ask you a question please? 

OP said in her post above that her horse is sound on tarmac and rounded stones, but still "footy" on sharp stones.  Would it not be normal for any horse to take...what can I call it....an "off" step if they were to randomly step on an isolated stone, in order to self-prevent themselves getting a bruise?  (I hope you can make sense of that question!)


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## Cortez (14 July 2012)

Why would anyone prefer to keep their horse in pain in order to "prove" that being unshod was best, when the simple, and time honoured, solution is to shoe? Is this not why shoes were invented in the first place: to protect horses feet when the horn wears down faster than it grows due to the workload, or perhaps chipping of the feet?


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## Mince Pie (14 July 2012)

Cptrayes, thank you - he's a cob so not fussy at all!  I will look into those.

Hollyhocks - yes that is exactly what he does, but he also strides out better on the rounded stones/grass/tarmac - hence the reason I thought he was 'footy'.


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## cptrayes (14 July 2012)

Cortez said:



			Why would anyone prefer to keep their horse in pain in order to "prove" that being unshod was best, when the simple, and time honoured, solution is to shoe? Is this not why shoes were invented in the first place: to protect horses feet when the horn wears down faster than it grows due to the workload, or perhaps chipping of the feet?
		
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No one sane would Cortez.

But there are many of us who would not have a horse who had been fine for 18 months without shoes shod because it suddenly went footie for 10 days, as you have. Some of us would prefer to investigate what has changed that means our horse can no longer cope, because it is usually an issue that will affect the health of the whole horse, not just its feet.


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## Holly Hocks (14 July 2012)

Broke_But_Happy said:



			Cptrayes, thank you - he's a cob so not fussy at all!  I will look into those.

Hollyhocks - yes that is exactly what he does, but he also strides out better on the rounded stones/grass/tarmac - hence the reason I thought he was 'footy'.
		
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BBH - the reason I ask is because if a horse steps on a random stone - my thought was that they took an "off" step in order to not step on the stone with their full weight in order to minimise a bruise - similar to the way we would....
I took my TB mare out for her first 40 minute long-rein this morning without her hoof boots and she walked down narrow lanes with random stones on and didn't stumble at all.  However there is one part of the road which has larger, sharper more isolated stones on, and she took a little more care on that area.  But then when she was shod, and when my last gelding was shod, they did exactly the same at that same area....


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## cptrayes (14 July 2012)

Holly Hocks said:



			CPT - can I just ask you a question please? 

OP said in her post above that her horse is sound on tarmac and rounded stones, but still "footy" on sharp stones.  Would it not be normal for any horse to take...what can I call it....an "off" step if they were to randomly step on an isolated stone, in order to self-prevent themselves getting a bruise?  (I hope you can make sense of that question!)
		
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D'ya know HH this is something I laugh hollowly about on a frequent basis. A barefoot horse steps on a sharp stone,  can feel it,  and is sensible enough to remove its foot quickly so it does not get hurt, and a load of barefoot-antis take a sharp intake of breath and say "that horse is in pain!!!". Meanwhile, a shod horse whose foot is numb treads on a sharp stone that's bigger than the depth of its shoe and leaves its weight there long enough to cause a bruise that keeps it off work for a week. That's just "bad luck", think the barefoot-antis.

Nic Barker is routinely got at by people (usually farriers) who watch video of her horses hunting stony Exmoor tracks because they shorten their stride going downhill. In their opinion, this proves her horses are not really sound. In our opinion, of course, it proves her horses can feel their own feet and choose to shorten their stride on a steep hill to stay in balance, much as a human runner would on similar loose stone.


Go figure  !!


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## Holly Hocks (14 July 2012)

cptrayes said:



			D'ya know HH this is something I laugh hollowly about on a frequent basis. A barefoot horse steps on a sharp stone,  can feel it,  and is sensible enough to remove its foot quickly so it does not get hurt, and a load of barefoot-antis take a sharp intake of breath and say "that horse is in pain!!!". Meanwhile, a shod horse whose foot is numb treads on a sharp stone that's bigger than the depth of its shoe and leaves its weight there long enough to cause a bruise that keeps it off work for a week. That's just "bad luck", think the barefoot-antis.

Go figure  !!
		
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Thank you C - you've put my mind at rest.  I'd read the earlier posts and was starting to get paranoid!!  It would seem my horse is just sensible then.....oh and just wanted to let you know that her feet are going from strength to strength (I PM'd you a while ago about her navicular, spavin, PSLD and arthritis!).

BBH - it could be just that you have a sensible horse - not a footy one!

Cortez - I have a lot of respect for you, but my horse was written off by every vet who she came into contact with and I was advised PTS, or field companion.  If it hadn't been for the help I received from CPT, Oberon and others on here, I may have followed the vet's advice.  However I didn't, and I now have a horse I can finally ride again....


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## Cortez (14 July 2012)

cptrayes said:



			No one sane would Cortez.

But there are many of us who would not have a horse who had been fine for 18 months without shoes shod because it suddenly went footie for 10 days, as you have. Some of us would prefer to investigate what has changed that means our horse can no longer cope, because it is usually an issue that will affect the health of the whole horse, not just its feet.
		
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Well, the "investigation" found that the hoof was wearing down and chipping, resulting in my lovely, hardworking, display and stunt horse having very sore feet. So we put shoes on and she is no longer lame (this is what sore means, BTW). Before you all start doing amateur analyses of what she has for breakfast, NOTHING has changed in her diet of 11 years (she, as are all my working horses, is entirely fibre fed), and they are all off the grass as of May. I do shoe my horses occassionally, when they are sore, which is usually when they are working harder than normal, which logically would seem to mean that the hoof wears down faster than it can grow. Working, for a movie horse, is real, old fashioned, 12 hours a day hard graft, BTW.


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## ester (14 July 2012)

Frank has at last learnt that standing there with your back leg in the air is not the ultimate solution for when you stand on a stone.. and you can put it back down again. 

bbh.. mines a cob.. he's fussy   (awkward bugger!)


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## SusieT (14 July 2012)

'If your horse was mine I would have him off the grass completely for three days and see how unhappy he was on the stones then. You've had him nearly six years and one spot of footiness and on go a set of shoes? Makes no sense to me but if you want to waste your money that way and possibly risk your horse going lami without you being able to see the warning signs that's entirely up to you. '
This is what we mean when we say shoving it down peoples throats. OP has stated measures she has taken. I have never yet seen a horse that is 'footy' (i.e lame..) have a laminitis attack after having shoes put on. In fact they've always walked away sound and comfortable-a key thing for an animal.  Horse is uncomfortable-do something to improve it.


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## cptrayes (14 July 2012)

Cortez said:



			Well, the "investigation" found that the hoof was wearing down and chipping, resulting in my lovely, hardworking, display and stunt horse having very sore feet. So we put shoes on and she is no longer lame (this is what sore means, BTW). Before you all start doing amateur analyses of what she has for breakfast, NOTHING has changed in her diet of 11 years (she, as are all my working horses, is entirely fibre fed), and they are all off the grass as of May.* I do shoe my horses occassionally, when they are sore, which is usually when they are working harder than normal,* which logically would seem to mean that the hoof wears down faster than it can grow. Working, for a movie horse, is real, old fashioned, 12 hours a day hard graft, BTW.
		
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So there we have the answer, don't we? You need shoes for exactly the same reason that shoes were invented - to enable people to use horses as machines.  

I don't think you should have waited until your horse was "very sore" to do something to help her, by the way.

Personally, I work hard to make sure that my horses are routinely doing the amount of work that I want them to do at peak times. That means that their feet are growing fast enough to cope with the wear. For my hunter,  I cannot suddenly spring a greater workload on his feet than last month, otherwise his growth will not match his wear.  

If you don't want to do that, fine, shoe. But don't kid yourself. Your horses need shoes because of *how* you work them, not because that work would be too much for their feet if they were routinely conditioned to it.


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## cptrayes (14 July 2012)

SusieT said:



			'If your horse was mine I would have him off the grass completely for three days and see how unhappy he was on the stones then. You've had him nearly six years and one spot of footiness and on go a set of shoes? Makes no sense to me but if you want to waste your money that way and possibly risk your horse going lami without you being able to see the warning signs that's entirely up to you. '
This is what we mean when we say shoving it down peoples throats. OP has stated measures she has taken. I have never yet seen a horse that is 'footy' (i.e lame..) have a laminitis attack after having shoes put on. In fact they've always walked away sound and comfortable-a key thing for an animal.  Horse is uncomfortable-do something to improve it.
		
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I don't see the OP getting upset about what I have posted Susie, why are you wading in on her behalf? Have you actually got anything postive to add to her discussion or did you just barge in here to have a go at me like normal?

Why do YOU think she posted? Just to tell us that she'd put him on the shoeing list for next week? No, of course not. She posted looking for support for that decision or more information to help her avoid it, which is all I have been giving. Unless you can add something constructive why do you waste your time?

By the way I'm still waiting for your apology for suggesting that I was having my wobbler shot to suit myself and not because it was the best thing for him.


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## Cortez (14 July 2012)

If a horse stands on a stone I would expect him to say "ouch" and save himself, that doesn't mean he is lame, but if he shortens and "potters", doesn't want to turn or cross his feet, this means he is sore and every step hurts - just watch kids going barefoot over stones.


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## Mince Pie (14 July 2012)

SusieT said:



			'If your horse was mine I would have him off the grass completely for three days and see how unhappy he was on the stones then. You've had him nearly six years and one spot of footiness and on go a set of shoes? Makes no sense to me but if you want to waste your money that way and possibly risk your horse going lami without you being able to see the warning signs that's entirely up to you. '
This is what we mean when we say shoving it down peoples throats. OP has stated measures she has taken. I have never yet seen a horse that is 'footy' (i.e lame..) have a laminitis attack after having shoes put on. In fact they've always walked away sound and comfortable-a key thing for an animal.  Horse is uncomfortable-do something to improve it.
		
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Sorry, can you just clarify your post please?


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## Cortez (14 July 2012)

Cptrayes, my horses are not machines, they are horses which have a job, they are not pets either but their wellbeing is paramount. I keep all my horses unshod whenever possible as I believe, as I gather do you, that this is the healthiest way for them. However, when they are lame they are not healthy, if they are lame because their feet cannot cope with the amount of work they do then they are shod. When their workload allows they will go back to being unshod. I believe that probably the vast majority of horses do not need shoes. Some do, and I also believe that continuing to allow horses which are plainly lame to hobble about in the name of a barefoot crusade is WRONG.


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## SusieT (14 July 2012)

First bit as a quote, second was a reply-to clarify-if he's lame without shoes and you cannot find a cause-shoe him, I have yet to see a horse go down with laminitis after being shod when not coping without shoes.


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## Mince Pie (14 July 2012)

OK, thank you. Looked like you were "having a go" at me!


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## Erin (14 July 2012)

SusieT said:



			First bit as a quote, second was a reply-to clarify-if he's lame without shoes and you cannot find a cause-shoe him, I have yet to see a horse go down with laminitis after being shod when not coping without shoes.
		
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Maybe not full-blown laminitis, but shoes do a very good job of masking LGL.

And I have to say, hammering nails into a sore foot doesn't sit right with me.


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## Bikerchickone (14 July 2012)

Cptrayes thank you for your post about stride shortening and stepping on odd sharp stones, that's given me the reassurance that I needed having taken my boy off road on a stony track today and been concerned about how he managed it, much shorter strides downhill and avoiding the sections with slightly larger boulders on them. 

Whilst I have nothing against shoes some of us are unable to go back to them due to lameness issues, for example my cob was lame on and off for several months before going barefoot. Hasn't had a lame day since so I have no intention of shoeing him again. 

Personally I'm much happier that my horse moves easily and is obviously more comfortable than he was in shoes. I know this because both my osteopath and my riding instructor have commented on the difference in him since he returned from Rockley. 

I'm all for everyone doing what works for them and nobody causing their horses any pain but I do think barefoot is something you need to be totally committed to. It doesn't work if you aren't unfortunately. That doesn't mean I think there's anything wrong with a decision to shoe by anyone else, just that I would do everything in my power to make sure my horse is comfortable in his own feet. 

As with the OP, I wouldn't have a sound riding horse without the likes of Cptrayes and Oberon so I'll be eternally grateful to them for taking the time to give me the information and advice they did. Thanks guys.  xx


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## SusieT (14 July 2012)

If a horse is too sore to shoe then it needs rest on a soft surface until the feet can take shoeing-most sensitive horses don't seem to notice shoes being 'banged' on. Hoof boots can also be used if you can't get them comfortable enough to get the shoes on for some reason. Low grade laminitis is widely diagnosed by amateurs-but really, if you look at the pathology LGL makes very little sense as a diagnosis-or more horses would be going full blown laminitic..


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## Erin (14 July 2012)

SusieT said:



			. Low grade laminitis is widely diagnosed by amateurs-but really, if you look at the pathology LGL makes very little sense as a diagnosis-or more horses would be going full blown laminitic..
		
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In what way does it not make sense?


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## Archie73 (14 July 2012)

Quote de SusieT
. Low grade laminitis is widely diagnosed by amateurs-but really, if you look at the pathology LGL makes very little sense as a diagnosis-or more horses would be going full blown laminitic.

Susie T. Please do explain this further.....if you can???


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## ILuvCowparsely (15 July 2012)

Broke_But_Happy said:



			Cptrayes, thank you - he's a cob so not fussy at all!  I will look into those.

Hollyhocks - yes that is exactly what he does, but he also strides out better on the rounded stones/grass/tarmac - hence the reason I thought he was 'footy'.
		
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 Here too 

 My gelding has been barefoot all his life we are very stony here and  went footy when the ground is stony.

 He now has front shoes on and is a different horse.

He is not fat has not got LGL
no related syndromes to met.

Its the ground as he never hacked out much before.   Hence why I left  him, barefoot.  He wont go barefoot again unless he is off work or retired.

 Some horses feet and frogs do get softer when they are living out or standing in a damp environment.


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## Mince Pie (15 July 2012)

Leviathan said:



			Some horses feet and frogs do get softer when they are living out or standing in a damp environment.
		
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Precisely my thought which is why I linked his footiness to the weather


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## Pale Rider (15 July 2012)

There was a time in my barefoot journey, when I would not have seen a reason to shoe again, ever. However, the walking, eating machine, that is the horse, needs the appropriate diet and exercise, hacking probably the best form. If you cannot give the unshod horse all he needs, then he is not barefoot. He is in a limbo, of not one thing or the other.
If he is not truly barefoot, he is an unshod horse with sore feet.
If as an owner, you cannot give the barefoot horse what he needs, for whatever reason, shoe him.
The barefoot route needs a management system, at a far higher level and not everyone can do it, far better to shoe in these circumstances.


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## Mince Pie (15 July 2012)

Pale Rider said:



			There was a time in my barefoot journey, when I would not have seen a reason to shoe again, ever. However, the walking, eating machine, that is the horse, needs the appropriate diet and exercise, hacking probably the best form. If you cannot give the unshod horse all he needs, then he is not barefoot. He is in a limbo, of not one thing or the other.
If he is not truly barefoot, he is an unshod horse with sore feet.
If as an owner, you cannot give the barefoot horse what he needs, for whatever reason, shoe him.
The barefoot route needs a management system, at a far higher level and not everyone can do it, far better to shoe in these circumstances.
		
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So what would your management routine be? As I've already outlined what his routine is regarding feeding and turnout. He is walked over different surfaces as we do hack a lot.


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## Pale Rider (15 July 2012)

There is the basic no sugar diet etc, I try to hack at least 5 miles per day road and track.
But things change with seasons, weather, and I react to that. Boots, sometimes, soaking hay for a while, my routine changes as I see fit.
The mistake is not being flexible.


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## Goldenstar (15 July 2012)

I am having a bad time too.
Even my boy who has been BF for nine months is feeling the worse surfaces a bit more .
I am having big issues with one who has gone very sore due to too much wear on his frogs I was looking for thrush ( no sign of that ) but vet who I got in because I feared LGL said not LGL but too much wear trimmer came out and said its the frogs not the soles and he has worn too much frog his back feet are worse I am resting him over the weekend in the school , stable , a little turnout at night and now have back boots , I am going to try using these next week ,trimmer said he is seeing horses BF for years struggling at the moment and he feels if the weather changes things will improve .
I feel bad about missing this this horse had typical lots of shoeing hunter feet and his frogs have got less weedy I had noticed the very polished look as his frogs but did not realise this was going to cause this issue .
I will have to go to shoes if I can't sort this as he's not getting  the work he needs it's a shame but  it's coming round to the time of year where he has to be got ready for his proper job .


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## jools123 (15 July 2012)

all my horses have always been kept on grass-and all of them have been kept barefoot, except my daughters cobx who has fronts when we got her she had been turned away for about 10 months and could hardly walk-my fields have never had fertlizer on them-where she came from the grazing is fertilized every year-any of you feel there may be a link here?
also for everyones info
the 11.3hh welsh pony had no hard feed, no supplements, work varied but always very restricted grazing
16.2hh welsh d cross tb, a fair bit of conditioning feed and grass for first 5months due to being in very poor condition
15.1hh welsh cros anglo arab, kept at grass no hard feed loads of hacking on roads
14.3hh welsh no hard feed kept at grass no fully backed yet 

all the above no shoes the whole time i had/have currently had them

14.3hh irish sports horse cross cob, handful conditioning cubes handful endurance mix, plus supplements  restricted grazing soaked hay, lots and lots of hacking
this is the only one that has had shoes


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## Pale Rider (15 July 2012)

I have to say that I agree with CPTrayes when she describes shod horses not looking after their feet.

Exact opposite from what shoeing is sold as.


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## ILuvCowparsely (15 July 2012)

OP I really think there are too many  barefoot tunneled vision members  on here who say shoeing horses is not correct etc.  Well the cavalry horses are shod so are the Queens. 

 Barefoot is NOT always the way to go, some of us are not in favour of going barefoot, for a number of reasons and situations some of us have witnessed.  That does not mean they are wrong.  Yes some horses benefit from barefoot - equally some benefit from shoes.  This does NOT mean their diet is wrong  neither does it mean their lifestyle is wrong.

 Horses at the end of the day were designed to run across prairies  open space etc.  Not to be ridden on tarmac etc.  I wonder how many race horses or eventer's  would do if they were going on soft ground without the aid of shoes and studs etc or horses  going on the roads like carriage horses would fair if they were barefoot.

 That is the trouble I see on here , some members are open minded realizing there are situations that arise when you need  to go barefoot and when you need shoes.  But a selected few who any time a member says they have trouble with their horses feet  they say barefoot because they are so apposed to shoes.

 Well from the select few barefooters I have seen over the years, what they have done here for liveries etc and my horses they have either made the  feet worst or not corrected it properly  or the horses feet did not improve going barefoot .  (some are going to blame feed or management her)   So we had to go shoes to correct the horse's problem or the horse is happier with shoes than without.  This had NOTHING to do with the diet.  I personally now have NO Faith in barefooters.

 I have two equines that are fully barefoot its because one doesn't work or go out of the yard the other is ok at the moment due to lack of work.  The difference is I have 50/50 vision which is if they need shoes (and some do) they have them if not they go without.  Some here accuse us of improper hoof care if we opt for shoes.

 I normally find  its the HORSE that tells me they they go better with fronts/ set than any WBP on here, and would never use a barefooter again.IMO so OP you know your horse better than anyone on here you do what is best for your horses situation. 

 I really don't know why barefooters preach and preach to us to go barefoot , where as farriers do not preach to us to have shoes.  Actually one of my farriers said both two of mine would do better barefoot the other fronts only.


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## ester (15 July 2012)

but this horse has been barefoot for years.. so it isn't a question of 'going barefoot'

with regards to horses going on roads there are several barefoot police forces so it is possible. 

I have never seen anyone on here say that there is never a reason to put shoes on, CP has always said that sometimes you cannot provide what the horse needs for it to be out of shoes (I remember having a 'discussion' with her on this back in our early days of being on the forum.. and accusing her of suggesting we were bad owners.. which she wasn't!) 

Maybe you haven't seen the right barefooters? removing shoes has certainly not made my boy worse or not corrected the problem.. his feet look better and after 4 months lame in shoes he is 14 weeks sound without. There is a question mark as to if he had been bf before he might not have the problems he does now. 

I don't find that barefooters preach and preach to go barefoot, they would just like to give you their opinions/what they would do/let you know it actually exists. Because without this forum I, among others who now have sound horses because of it, wouldn't have known much about it.


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## Clava (15 July 2012)

Broke_But_Happy said:



			Precisely my thought which is why I linked his footiness to the weather 

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...but all of my horse have great feet in the wet winter and don't need boots and they are 24/7 in mud??? however, come the spring and the grass things change rapidly 

So how can it be the weather for them?


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## PolarSkye (15 July 2012)

Nope!  Kal is unshod behind - has been for a year now - and his hinds have never looked better and aren't remotely footy or sore.  His hind hooves were shocking before we removed the shoes - crumbly, full of holes, couldn't hold a shoe for love nor money . . . they have completely grown out now and are so healthy.  If we can't get him sound in front with the eggbars, I am really noodling through whether it's time to take his fronts off too.  

P


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## MerrySherryRider (15 July 2012)

Well the excessively wet ground has contributed towards a fairly bad case of thrush in my cob's unshod feet. I've never seen the condition of his frogs deteriorate so quickly and the only factor that has changed is the continual heavy rain saturating his feet and the ground.
  However after a few days of being stabled to dry his feet, in hand walking on roads and the healing properties of honey active +30 (amazing stuff), he's recovered well.

So, to answer OP's original question, yes, one horse has been compromised by the wet ground, while the other is fine.


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## cptrayes (15 July 2012)

Leviathan said:



			OP I really think there are too many  barefoot tunneled vision members  on here who say shoeing horses is not correct etc.
		
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No-one on here has said any such thing. 



Leviathan said:



			Well the cavalry horses are shod so are the Queens.
		
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At least one police force in the US have unshod horses - why are they wrong and the Queen right? Who is more open minded here?



Leviathan said:



			I wonder how many ..... eventers  would do if they were going on soft ground without the aid of shoes and studs
		
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I did affiliated with 5 with no problems at all. 



Leviathan said:



			etc or horses  going on the roads like carriage horses would fair if they were barefoot.

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Pete Rameys wife has carriage horses. My  big mw hunter does all his hunt conditioning on tarmac roads. Miles and miles of them. Tarmac is a fantastic surface for conditioning barefooters.



Leviathan said:



			That is the trouble I see on here , some members are open minded realizing there are situations that arise when you need  to go barefoot and when you need shoes. But a selected few who any time a member says they have trouble with their horses feet  they say barefoot because they are so apposed to shoes.
		
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I do not know anyone on this forum with that point of view. ALL of us support the use of shoes when the owner is unable to provide a particular horse with what it might need to stay barefoot. All of us accept that there is  a small proportion of horse which, for whatever reason, cannot manage barefoot at all. And a larger proportion who need very careful management to achieve it. 

What we do not accept is that a horse which has been sound without shoes for 6 years should have shoes put on as a first resort simply because it has been feeling the odd stone for 4 weeks, especially as it is sound and happy on tarmac and concrete.

Just who are the ones being closed minded here?




Leviathan said:



			Well from the select few barefooters I have seen over the years, what they have done here for liveries etc and my horses they have either made the  feet worst or not corrected it properly  or the horses feet did not improve going barefoot .  (some are going to blame feed or management her)   So we had to go shoes to correct the horse's problem or the horse is happier with shoes than without.  This had NOTHING to do with the diet.
		
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I, on the other hand, have never seen a horse with the shoes taken off whose feet have not improved, sometimes dramatically, once in a life-saving fashion. Since I have seen so many, and personally done quite a few, I can only assume that the failures are not being managed in the same way as the successes of which I know. 




Leviathan said:



			I personally now have NO Faith in barefooters.
		
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Again, who exactly is being closed minded here? Does it not interest you that Rockley Farm, run by a barefooter with no shoeing expertise, has now managed to return to work the vast majority of over 50 horses with foot lameness, most of which were still lame after a full gamut of medication and remedial shoeing? How closed minded is that, if so?




Leviathan said:



			I really don't know why barefooters preach and preach to us to go barefoot
		
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We don't. We answer questions posted by people. If you choose to interpret that as preaching that is your problem and not ours.



Leviathan said:



			, where as farriers do not preach to us to have shoes
		
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They do. I was told by two farriers that the first horse I had would never be able to work barefoot. He evented after 9 months with incredibly improved feet.  A third farrier was prepared to see my navicular rehab horse put down because he could do no more for him. 



Leviathan said:



			Actually one of my farriers said both two of mine would do better barefoot the other fronts only.
		
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Lucky you. I wish everyone could get hold of a farrier that good.


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## ILuvCowparsely (15 July 2012)

cptrayes said:



			No-one on here has said any such thing. 

At least one police force in the US have unshod horses - why are they wrong and the Queen right? Who is more open minded here?

Pete Rameys wife has carriage horses.  *so what?? i said most are shod*




I do not know anyone on this forum with that point of view. ALL of us support the use of shoes when the owner is unable to provide a particular horse with what it might need to stay barefoot. All of us accept that there is  a small proportion of horse which, for whatever reason, cannot manage barefoot at all. What we do not accept is that a horse which has been sound without shoes for 6 years should have shoes put on as a first resort simply because it has been feeling the odd stone for 4 weeks, especially as it is sound and happy on tarmac and concrete.








I, on the other hand, have never seen a horse with the shoes taken off whose feet have not improved, sometimes dramatically, once in a life-saving fashion. Since I have seen so many, and personally done quite a few, I can only assume that the failures are not being managed in the same way as the successes of which I know. 

 So ??????? you haven seen doesnt mean there are not 1000 out there who have 




Again, who exactly is being closed minded here? Does it not interest you that Rockley Farm, run by a barefooter with no shoeing expertise, has now managed to return to work the vast majority of over 50 horses with foot lameness, most of which were still lame after a full gamut of medication and remedial shoeing? How closed minded is that, if so?


I personally now have NO Faith in barefooters.





			again, who exactly is being closed minded here? Does it not interest you that Rockley Farm, run by a barefooter with no shoeing expertise, has now managed to return to work the vast majority of over 50 horses with foot lameness, most of which were still lame after a full gamut of medication and remedial shoeing? How closed minded is that, if so?
		
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 No it does not interest me why would it ?  its not close mindedness i have more important things to do  than  read about that 

  I am not closed minded, how can me explain that in my experiences of bare footers  which have all been no good   closed minded???

 ITS FACT  they have ALL done nothing for our horses .  Maybe in your little world  horses have improved but in my experiences  they have not in mine therefore i trust a farrier over a barefooter. 

 you are full of quoting are  you not??

 how can me saying i have no faith in barefooters be close minded when  all my experiences are justifiable bad.  Its fact

 I did not say  barefoot is bad , just in MY experiences all the  barefooters I have seen and I have witnessed did not improve the horse but the farrier did . If you choose to interpret that in another way that's  up to you.


My two barefoot horses are in trust in a farrier who has done more for these two individuals  horses in a few trims than the barefooters did in over a year including  all their spectrum photos and talk  .  They talked the talk but did not walk the walk.  Its base on fact in MY experience and my witnessing and liveries etc we have seen  it iwth our eyes so its based on fact not close mind. I CHOOSE not to waste anymore money on a barefooter , that is my prerogative.
		
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## hayinamanger (15 July 2012)

I know very little about barefoot trimming, so please don't shout at me.  I have a numpty question.  My farrier trims my unshod horses, he uses a hoof knife to take off the surface of the sole and to trim the frog.  A couple of them are tender on stoney ground for a week to 10 days afterwards.  Does a barefoot trimmer touch the soles and frogs?  Thanks.


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## ester (15 July 2012)

ECD, no generally they don't although different 'schools' do things a bit differently. Unless there are flaps of frog that are encouraging thrush which would be better removed. The theory being that they have built those structures up for a reason. It would be worth asking your farrier not to and see whether they then don't get the footiness you are seeing. 

LVN, I am rather pleased that at times I didn't have anything more important to do than read about that.. it gave my lad an option other than retirement currently. my prior knowledge of barefoots are RS ponies in light work trimmed by the farrier and that's it, I had no RL knowledge of horses with no shoes in proper work.


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## cptrayes (15 July 2012)

elderlycoupleindevon said:



			I know very little about barefoot trimming, so please don't shout at me.  I have a numpty question.  My farrier trims my unshod horses, he uses a hoof knife to take off the surface of the sole and to trim the frog.  A couple of them are tender on stoney ground for a week to 10 days afterwards.  Does a barefoot trimmer touch the soles and frogs?  Thanks.
		
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I'm not going to take a shot at you I'm just going to say "listen to the horse", because they are telling you very clearly that what your farrier is doing is wrong.


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## cptrayes (15 July 2012)

Leviathan said:



			I CHOOSE not to waste anymore money on a barefooter , that is my prerogative.
		
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I don't care two hoots about what you do with your horses Leviathan. What puzzles me is why you are so determined to read advice given to OTHER PEOPLE as anyone posting on here telling YOU what to do.

Can I suggest that if you would like to stop feeling as if barefooters are trying to tell you how to manage your horses, that you stop reading threads where other people ask for advice in how to manage their barefoot horses and are given it?


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## ILuvCowparsely (15 July 2012)

Can you pleas explain what this is supposed to mean??




			I have to say that I agree with CPTrayes when she describes shod horses not looking after their feet.
		
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## ester (15 July 2012)

shod horses have reduce propioception.. therefore if they stand on a stone they don't notice until they have stood on it long enough to cause damage. Hence 'they aren't very good at looking after their own feet'

Non shod horses have better propioception and would remove their foot quicker.


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## ILuvCowparsely (15 July 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Can I suggest that if you would like to stop feeling as if barefooters are trying to tell you how to manage your horses, that you stop reading threads where other people ask for advice in how to manage their barefoot horses and are given it?
		
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 you can suggest it yes. but that wont change the fact that my barefoot DID  tell me how to manage my horse.  I am mearly going on my experience of 11 years of barefooters .
 I am  not saying anything about advice for other horses only whats happened to my yard friends- horses over the past 45 years .

 I choose now to have a farrier trim my barefoot horses than pay £ 65 for a barefooter  only to find the farrier did a better job. That is based on my horses improvement not dissing other peoples experiences with barefooters.

 This  is my opinion  I trust my farriers  thats all that matters my horses have better feet now than they have ever had.  What you do with that   INOMB


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## quirky (15 July 2012)

elderlycoupleindevon said:



			I know very little about barefoot trimming, so please don't shout at me.  I have a numpty question.  My farrier trims my unshod horses, he uses a hoof knife to take off the surface of the sole and to trim the frog.  A couple of them are tender on stoney ground for a week to 10 days afterwards.  Does a barefoot trimmer touch the soles and frogs?  Thanks.
		
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We have a barefoot bod who comes to the yard to trim. The one he does is usually sore/footy for about 3 weeks before she comes right.
Saying that though, one of the horses who is shod is always sore for a day or so after he's been shod.

Maybe it's just one of those things


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## foxy1 (15 July 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Does he twitch or get irritated if you squeeze the top of his neck just in front of the wither?
		
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CPTrayes, can you tell me the significance of this?


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## maisie06 (15 July 2012)

Not at all. Alf has never been shod, has white feet, is on no special diets and is fine.


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## cptrayes (15 July 2012)

quirky said:



			We have a barefoot bod who comes to the yard to trim. The one he does is usually sore/footy for about 3 weeks before she comes right.
Saying that though, one of the horses who is shod is always sore for a day or so after he's been shod.

Maybe it's just one of those things 

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No horse should walk away from a trim less capable than it walked into it. Any trimmer that repeats a trim knowing that the horse is being made uncomfortable by the trim should be replaced by someone who knows what they are doing.

Why does anyone accept a horse being able to walk on stones before a trim and not after the trim and continue with a trimmer who causes the same problems next time?

There are good trimmers and farriers and bad trimmers and farriers. Both bad types lame horses and should be sacked.


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## Oberon (15 July 2012)

quirky said:



			We have a barefoot bod who comes to the yard to trim. The one he does is usually sore/footy for about 3 weeks before she comes right.
Saying that though, one of the horses who is shod is always sore for a day or so after he's been shod.

Maybe it's just one of those things 

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It is possible for the best trimmers and farriers to make a mistake and make a horse sore post trim - especially with laminitics as they can be lamed by just a mm off in the wrong place.

So occasionally you can scratch it up to "wrong place, wrong time".

But doing it more than once is a cause for concern and unless the professional is prepared to learn and adapt for that individual horse - they need sacking


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## Oberon (15 July 2012)

Cross posted with CPT


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## cptrayes (15 July 2012)

foxy1 said:



			Originally Posted by cptrayes View Post
Does he twitch or get irritated if you squeeze the top of his neck just in front of the wither?

CPTrayes, can you tell me the significance of this?
		
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Sure 

Insulin resistant horses can develop a patch of fat on the top of the neck in front of the wither which is often very sensitive to being squeezed or even touched.

According to the vet who treated my friend's massively IR mare, the presence of this bit of fat actually causes the pancreas to overproduce insulin. Current treatment is, literally, to starve the horse until that piece of fat is forced to be "eaten up" to keep the horse alive, which will then allow the pancreas to "reset" as it were, and behave normally. 

If you have a reactive piece of neck in that area, then there is a strong possibility that you have an Insulin Resistant horse who produces far, far too much insulin when it eats carbohydrates. That often produces very weak feet with very thin soles, which can't be cured until the insulin is brought under control. 

Hope that helps.


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## siennamum (15 July 2012)

I'm putting shoes on my boy on Thursday. He has become increasingly footy, and is wearing his toes, which concerns me. I too think his feet are suffering in all this wet weather.


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## Oberon (15 July 2012)

FWIW - if anyone wants my opinion 

I think shoeing a horse to improve their comfort is excellent if that is the best thing for the horse. And the owners should be commended for putting their horse's need first.

I would beg all those that are shoeing though to please allow a break from shoes once a year for a few months - just like we used to 'back in the day'.

That way you get the best of both worlds .


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## Pale Rider (15 July 2012)

'Mad as a box of frogs, lol'


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## siennamum (15 July 2012)

Oberon said:



			FWIW - if anyone wants my opinion 

I think shoeing a horse to improve their comfort is excellent if that is the best thing for the horse. And the owners should be commended for putting their horse's need first.

I would beg all those that are shoeing though to please allow a break from shoes once a year for a few months - just like we used to 'back in the day'.

That way you get the best of both worlds .
		
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I do the opposite but with a similare mindset I think. generally fine unshod, workload increases will lead to shoeing for part of the year - Winter or Summer.


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## foxy1 (15 July 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Sure 

Insulin resistant horses can develop a patch of fat on the top of the neck in front of the wither which is often very sensitive to being squeezed or even touched.

According to the vet who treated my friend's massively IR mare, the presence of this bit of fat actually causes the pancreas to overproduce insulin. Current treatment is, literally, to starve the horse until that piece of fat is forced to be "eaten up" to keep the horse alive, which will then allow the pancreas to "reset" as it were, and behave normally. 

If you have a reactive piece of neck in that area, then there is a strong possibility that you have an Insulin Resistant horse who produces far, far too much insulin when it eats carbohydrates. That often produces very weak feet with very thin soles, which can't be cured until the insulin is brought under control. 

Hope that helps.
		
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Thanks. I thought my horse's rug had somehow made him sore there, despite his rugs being well fitting and never rubbing. I have suspected he is IR since he went very footy on frosty grass in the middle of winter. All makes sense.


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## Goldenstar (15 July 2012)

I have no interest in keeping the bun fight running but I simply don't understand  why what the queens Calvary horses have on their feet has any bearing on OP's question .
I have seen this comment before on threads i don't get it . ( mind I am accused of having republican tendencies by my other half).


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## thehorsephotographer (15 July 2012)

I've just had front shoes fitted to my 4 year old mare for the first time on the farriers advice.  He said he's never seen so many foot abscesses and problems as he has this year and blames the weather with hooves being softer as they are constantly wet.  

I'm hoping to have her barefoot again either coming into winter if not sooner.

Where we are however we have to ride out onto tarmac with lots of chippings about before we can go anywhere (the field is right next to a wartime airfield and we have to ride down the old runway to get anywhere) and I think that has a bearing on things.


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## Pale Rider (15 July 2012)

Vive la Republique!


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## Mince Pie (15 July 2012)

Evening all!

First of all - Leviathan, with all due respect I have no interest in reviving the age old shod vs barefoot debate so please take it else where 

Cptrayes - no reaction at all to squeezing bottom of neck/top of withers.

Took him out today and he was again very reluctant to walk on the stony ground - it's not a case of "ouchy, odd stone" it is like me walking across Brighton beach - short pottery steps. For whatever reason he is not coping with the ground at the new yard and, as he is SO genuine, I am reluctant to put him through this. Front shoes will be going on for 6-8 weeks whilst I play about with his supplements then we will try again, luckily my farrier is happy to come back out at short notice to re-shoe if necessary.

For anyone interested, this is the ground we are having problems with:






and this is what I mean by "sparse grazing":


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## Equilibrium Ireland (15 July 2012)

If you suspect IR please get a vet to do a definitive test. Honest to dog. It was like the woman who told me she had the ulcer test. Run finger along belly. If they react you need ulcer meds. Excuse me, the herbal cure. Funny how when her associate's horse was diagnosed via scope with ulcers they used the real meds. Some horses are more reactive to others about certain things. A horse can be IR and not react and a horse can be not IR and react to the test. 

Funny how we're ultra critical of a farrier doing certain tests for LGL and then offer up this test for IR. 

Terri


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## Goldenstar (15 July 2012)

BBH I think thats what I would in your place you can enjoy riding him while its summer( that's a joke) and as you say take them off in a while it's interesting that you have changed yards perhaps with a breathing space you wil be able to figure out what's different.
I am giving mine ten days to settle his frogs I will then try boots all round if it's not workiing it's shoes for him I will have another go next April 
We have a fab drying wind today fingers crossed its a change for the better.


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## Pale Rider (15 July 2012)

I don't think that was mean't as a definitive test for I R, just an indication, mind you, they are dead easy to spot, when you are aware of what to look for.


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## Mince Pie (15 July 2012)

Equilibrium Ireland said:



			If you suspect IR please get a vet to do a definitive test. Honest to dog. It was like the woman who told me she had the ulcer test. Run finger along belly. If they react you need ulcer meds. Excuse me, the herbal cure. Funny how when her associate's horse was diagnosed via scope with ulcers they used the real meds. Some horses are more reactive to others about certain things. A horse can be IR and not react and a horse can be not IR and react to the test. 

Funny how we're ultra critical of a farrier doing certain tests for LGL and then offer up this test for IR. 

Terri
		
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I didn't at all, I just answered Cptrayes question  I I think something is wrong then the vet is ALWAYS the first port of call...


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## Mince Pie (15 July 2012)

Pale Rider said:



			I don't think that was mean't as a definitive test for I R, just an indication, mind you, they are dead easy to spot, when you are aware of what to look for.
		
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Out of interest what are you looking for?


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## MissMistletoe (15 July 2012)

Oberon said:



			FWIW - if anyone wants my opinion 

I think shoeing a horse to improve their comfort is excellent if that is the best thing for the horse. And the owners should be commended for putting their horse's need first.

I would beg all those that are shoeing though to please allow a break from shoes once a year for a few months - just like we used to 'back in the day'.

That way you get the best of both worlds .
		
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Sorry to hijack this thread OP. 

If you were to pull the shoes for a few months, which months would be the most beneficial for the horse? Horse doing hacking and RC activities all year round. Out 24/7/365.
thanks.


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## Pale Rider (15 July 2012)

BBH, a fatty crest, fat pads near the shoulder, puffiness over the eyes.


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## Goldenstar (15 July 2012)

MissMistletoe said:



			Sorry to hijack this thread OP. 

If you were to pull the shoes for a few months, which months would be the most beneficial for the horse? Horse doing hacking and RC activities all year round. Out 24/7/365.
thanks.
		
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I do it to suit me ie when there's less to do with a particular horse I remove the shoes if you can do twelve weeks in each year it makes a huge difference.
It's only recently I have come to realise you can remove the shoes and do a degree of work useing boots or completely BF I am still feeling my way with this 
I think the hardest time to remove shoes is mid July though August when the ground is hardest ( may not be a issue this year).


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## Goldenstar (15 July 2012)

Pale Rider said:



			BBH, a fatty crest, fat pads near the shoulder, puffiness over the eyes.
		
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If you had a good doer with small fat pads on shoulder but normal crest and no puffiness over eyes would you worry.
Hes fatter than I would like but not in show condition very difficult to get wieght off until he's hunting hard.


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## TrasaM (15 July 2012)

I ride my friends barefoot Arab x and he's become very foot sore recently. Farrier says its the wet weather.
Having read through the thread I will speak to his owner about this. He is also very careful on his feet after they've been trimmed. He's not being ridden at the moment. I asked yesterday whether shed checked his digital pulse and she did not know what I meant. I read somewhere that this is more relevant to laminitis than warm hooves??  

Thank you CP and others. Very informative thread.

In the land of the blind the one eyed man is indeed King.


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## Ibblebibble (15 July 2012)

Clava said:



			...but all of my horse have great feet in the wet winter and don't need boots and they are 24/7 in mud??? however, come the spring and the grass things change rapidly 

So how can it be the weather for them?
		
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I'm finding that the grass is still very spring like because of the weather, my fields look sparse but all the horses are holding their weight so i know they are getting enough grass. added to that the never ending wet and they are all suffering with soft coronet bands and softer frogs than usual. After that early hot spell we had and then it turned wet i had the first case of foot abcess i've ever had in any of them, and they all live out 24/7 through the worst and best of the weather and have for the last 6 years.


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## Nightmare before Christmas (15 July 2012)

My broodmare is foot sore over gravel  feet are a little saturated. Its is drying up now though!


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## Pale Rider (15 July 2012)

Goldenstar, if the crest looks, sort of wrong, when he has lost weight, he's probably IR, if your worried, I'd get him tested.  You know what your dealing with then.


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## Clava (15 July 2012)

Ibblebibble said:



			I'm finding that the grass is still very spring like because of the weather, my fields look sparse but all the horses are holding their weight so i know they are getting enough grass. added to that the never ending wet and they are all suffering with soft coronet bands and softer frogs than usual. After that early hot spell we had and then it turned wet i had the first case of foot abcess i've ever had in any of them, and they all live out 24/7 through the worst and best of the weather and have for the last 6 years.
		
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Yes the weather has an effect in terms of diet IMO, but not in terms of the wet which I was responding to.


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## Goldenstar (15 July 2012)

Pale Rider said:



			Goldenstar, if the crest looks, sort of wrong, when he has lost weight, he's probably IR, if your worried, I'd get him tested.  You know what your dealing with then.
		
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No his crest looks great when he's in work looks fine now too he was very overweight when we got him  I would now say is the looks abit too well category he has gained in his spring rest but not a huge amount but we are on his case the whole time I hate to think what would happen if you just turned him out.
If I can't settle these feet down I am going to shoe him and up the work.


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## Oberon (15 July 2012)

MissMistletoe said:



			Sorry to hijack this thread OP. 

If you were to pull the shoes for a few months, which months would be the most beneficial for the horse? Horse doing hacking and RC activities all year round. Out 24/7/365.
thanks.
		
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Whichever time of year is easiest for your schedule.

I would say spring is the hardest time though, with the rich grass.

However - everyone seems obsessed with the weather being the cause of all hoof issues (even though it's just as wet in winter ) so perhaps everyone needs to move to a warmer climate to have happy hooves


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## Mince Pie (15 July 2012)

Ah yes Oberon, but it's not warm enough in winter for "spring grass"! 

Did you see the photo of the problem tracks? Is it normal for a good unshod horse to be happy enough to walk on it? I've never had to ride on anything like this before  Also for my cob, who has been unshod for at least 5 1/2 years, how long would you expect it to take for his feet to adjust to that kind of ground?


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## Oberon (15 July 2012)

Broke_But_Happy said:



			Ah yes Oberon, but it's not warm enough in winter for "spring grass"! 

Did you see the photo of the problem tracks? Is it normal for a good unshod horse to be happy enough to walk on it? I've never had to ride on anything like this before  Also for my cob, who has been unshod for at least 5 1/2 years, how long would you expect it to take for his feet to adjust to that kind of ground?
		
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Ah yes - but aparantly it's ALL ABOUT the weather .

I saw the problem tracks. They wouldn't be a problems to me - but if your horse is uncomfortable and you don't know how to help him and can't use boots - then shoes are the way to go .

[YOUTUBE]e4UvMlGc_6k[/YOUTUBE]


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## Mince Pie (15 July 2012)

Thanks for that, how would you get him used to it? We have access to all kinds of terrain and he's on a low sugar diet. How long should it take him (I know it's a rough estimate as all horses are different) to get used to walking on this type of ground?

He is very pottery and reluctant to walk out, should I walk him on tarmac for a while to get his feet a bit harder before asking him to walk on the stones? The track to his field is stony and downhill so he'll be exposed to them constantly in short doses either way.

ETA: as an afterthought, put him in a hunting situation and he'd go anywhere through adrenaline!


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## cptrayes (15 July 2012)

Equilibrium Ireland said:



			If you suspect IR please get a vet to do a definitive test. Honest to dog. It was like the woman who told me she had the ulcer test. Run finger along belly. If they react you need ulcer meds. Excuse me, the herbal cure. Funny how when her associate's horse was diagnosed via scope with ulcers they used the real meds. Some horses are more reactive to others about certain things. A horse can be IR and not react and a horse can be not IR and react to the test. 

Funny how we're ultra critical of a farrier doing certain tests for LGL and then offer up this test for IR. 

Terri
		
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Are you talking about my posts? If so, I suggest you read them properly  

I did not say that a sensitive neck was a test for IR. The test for IR is to take blood samples and measure the levels of insulin in the blood. But if your horse has sensitive feet and a sensitive neck, then it would be a very good idea to rule out IR, don't you think 

There is no test for LGL that I know of. If you know better please let us know.


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## Mince Pie (15 July 2012)

Broke_But_Happy said:



			Thanks for that, how would you get him used to it? We have access to all kinds of terrain and he's on a low sugar diet. How long should it take him (I know it's a rough estimate as all horses are different) to get used to walking on this type of ground?

He is very pottery and reluctant to walk out, should I walk him on tarmac for a while to get his feet a bit harder before asking him to walk on the stones? The track to his field is stony and downhill so he'll be exposed to them constantly in short doses either way.
		
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## ILuvCowparsely (16 July 2012)

deleted


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## Mince Pie (17 July 2012)

Broke_But_Happy said:



			Thanks for that, how would you get him used to it? We have access to all kinds of terrain and he's on a low sugar diet. How long should it take him (I know it's a rough estimate as all horses are different) to get used to walking on this type of ground?

He is very pottery and reluctant to walk out, should I walk him on tarmac for a while to get his feet a bit harder before asking him to walk on the stones? The track to his field is stony and downhill so he'll be exposed to them constantly in short doses either way.
		
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Bump, sorry


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## TwoStroke (17 July 2012)

Broadly speaking there are two reasons why you'd be struggling. One is under developed weak feet, and the other is sensitive feet which is usually dietary related.

I know everyone seems convinced that it's the weather playing havoc, but to me it sounds like your horse is struggling with too many carbs. Whilst this remains the case, I doubt he'll ever be happy over that surface, no matter how much conditioning you do. So if you don't know, or can't fix what's making him sensitive then you're right to shoe, if booting's not for you.

Another thing to bear in mind is that without a good strong wall connection, it is likely that you may not have completely adequate sole depth, which won't be helping. Wall connection is compromised by carb overload, so the two things are closely connected.

You may find that if you increased his exercise he'd be sounder over tough surfaces, but you'd have to boot in the mean time; feet will only improve if correct biomechanics are in effect, and for this the horse must be moving comfortably.

I apologise if you've answered any of this in the last 11 pages and I've missed it . Have you ever removed grass 100% and kept him on soaked hay to see if his comfort over tough surfaces improves? Would be an interesting test.

Other than that, I can only think to suggest posting hoof pics, if you haven't already, to see if there's anything obvious that could be causing you problems?


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## Bikerchickone (17 July 2012)

For those of you whose horses are struggling at the moment, has anyone considered the possibility of thrush? I've not read all the posts but my lad has been struggling a bit on our stony tracks, which is much the same as those pictured above. Nothing in his diet had changed, including grazing - he's still only out at night on a small  field grazed by


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## Bikerchickone (17 July 2012)

Blasted phone posted too soon! Grazed by another horse all day and I'm reluctant to believe it can be the wet weather since he was happily rock crunching in Exmoor and when he came home, as well as for a while up until recently. Exmoor has more than its fair share of rain so if the wet is a factor I'm not sure how Nic keeps hers going at Rockley since they live out, albeit with shelter but we all know most horses don't use shelter provided for them. 

I (sticking my neck out here maybe) think it's thrush so I've started using Red Horse Field Paste. Don't know if it's working yet as only started yesterday. Has anyone else come to the same conclusion and treated for it? 

Dom's hooves have no smell or signs of anything lurking that I can see but his frog is slightly sensitive to the hoof pick so of course stones will hurt. I just hope I'm right and this fixes it for him. 

Anyone gonna shoot me down in flames for being so obviously dumb now?


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## Mince Pie (17 July 2012)

I'll get some hoof pics today. Two stroke, how would you say the horse has too much carbs  - he barely gets anything other than 1/2 scoop oats per day?

Took him out yesterday along the roads, walked out lovely. Seems to be just the rocky tracks he's having problems with... Shoes are going back on tomorrow so I have 6-8 weeks to tweak his diet etc. Have got some mag ox and brewers yeast to add to his diet, and, on Nic Barkers advice will start giving him salt as well. ow long should it take for the changes in his diet to take effect? I only want to shoe him once!


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## criso (17 July 2012)

We're not doing too badly this year considering the conditions i.e. the grass round here is lethal.  Off work with a shoulder injury so his feet are reflecting the lack of exercise but really not too bad considering no work.

Routine is pretty similar to winter in that he spends half his time out at grass standing in mud but comes in either day or night depending and spends that time in his stable with hay so I guess the feet do get a chance to dry out.

I seem to get less thrush and mud fever since I got the diet perfect and started mineral balancing, the only time I get an issue with thrush is on box rest if he is standing on poo for a long period of time.  Talking of diet Brewers Yeast has always seemed to help him, combination of the b vitamins for good quality horn and the yeasts for the stomach calming properties.

However as I said I am finding the grass a particular issue this year to the point that he went footy when the yard decided to turn him out earlier than my instructions (about 4- 5) when the grass sugars were especially high.  If I leave it to after 6 but usually even later he's fine.   A little matter of 2 or 3 hours makes the difference between a horse who happily walks on stones and gravel and one who looks for the verge.

The grass is really the only difference between winter and summer for me so in my mind it has to be a key factor.

It is difficult on livery yards to provide the right environment and I have sympathy if you have to shoe as it can be tricky to get everything right but judging by the amount of people unable to ride and waiting for the farrier as yet another shoe is pulled off I don't think it's only the barefoot horses who are struggling.


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## Bikerchickone (17 July 2012)

Hmm criso, you may have something there, my boy is put out between 4 and 5 in the evening so maybe the grass has changed and he's getting to it too early! Something else to consider! Think I'm going to keep going with the field paste too though just to be on the safe side!


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## TwoStroke (17 July 2012)

When the horse is on a fibre based diet, grass is usually the main culprit for carbs (I was using 'carbs' to refer to Non Structural Carbohydrates, which include sugar and fructans).

Diet changes can have an effect very quickly. A friend recently moved her horse to my yard, and I could immediately see the horse was struggling badly with the grass - burning feet, hobbling round on smooth concrete etc. I advised my friend to remove the horse from grass 100%, feed soaked hay and a small feed with minerals, yea sacc and charcoal. Within three days the horse was comfortable again.

It's not always that quick, of course, particularly if there are structural improvements needed in the feet, but you should be able to notice some improvements fairly swiftly. Until the horse has a well connected hoof capsule and adequate sole depth, though, I think rocks can always pose a challenge. I know my TB would not cope on stones, but he has very weak feet that are proving a real challenge to improve. My youngster on the other hand, sails over rocks - but his feet are pretty strong.


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## TwoStroke (17 July 2012)

bikerchickone said:



			Hmm criso, you may have something there, my boy is put out between 4 and 5 in the evening so maybe the grass has changed and he's getting to it too early! Something else to consider! Think I'm going to keep going with the field paste too though just to be on the safe side!
		
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There may be your issue. This is the peak time for sugar in the grass - it's been building and building all day (whilst your horse has been in, waiting to be let out on it ). Then he goes out and starts scoffing when the sugar is at it's peak... and you see where I'm going with this . Are you able to put him out later? The later the better, really.


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## criso (17 July 2012)

I also think my experience illustrates how difficult it can be on livery yards.  

I'm on full livery during the week as I work long hours in London and sometimes travel for work.
I had arranged with my yard manager that he went out last thing on the nights I can't get up, which was fine as she finished the yard, did her own horses and put Frankie out last thing.  Probably about 6 - 6 30, he goes out between 7 and 8 when I go up which is usually about 3 times week during the week.

Then she got some helpers and on the days they finished off the yard he was going out before 5pm.  No one told me this but I noticed he was footy from time to time.  He's just being hand walked because of an injury but I did notice.

This all came out when the yard manager left and I was going through his routine with them and I had to fight really hard to get him turned out late enough.  I think I am now the 'difficult' owner


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## Mince Pie (17 July 2012)

Can I text anyone pictures of  his feet?


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## cptrayes (17 July 2012)

Can you post them on here? Loads of us will try and help then.


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## Mince Pie (17 July 2012)

Two stroke is very kindly putting them up for me. Struggling to upload them due to dodgy signal!


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## TwoStroke (17 July 2012)

ETS: the sizing is how it's uploaded from my phone... not sure why! Side on photos to follow, hopefully


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## kerrieberry2 (17 July 2012)

my baby's feet seem fine, he was trimmed last week but didn't notice any soreness before that!


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## TwoStroke (17 July 2012)




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## TwoStroke (17 July 2012)

They look like structurally robust feet . Do the pale feet have that pinkish tinge in real life?


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## Mince Pie (17 July 2012)

No, I think my phone puts a pink tinge on things - I have a superb photo of Olly where he is  very pink!


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## cptrayes (17 July 2012)

Fantastic frogs BBH  and nothing in the rest of the photos to explain why you are having problems. I can only echo that my boys don't go out until 7pm either, so maybe it is that. I hope so, it would be a shame for you to have to shoe those!


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## Bikerchickone (17 July 2012)

Right, well I'm testing the grass theory having put my lad out tonight at about 9pm, so hopefully completely safe timing  I even rode him to the field in just a headcollar which could have been a mistake with a rather round hogged cob but luckily he's too much of a gentleman to throw me on the floor  

Only trouble is I can't put him out this late every night because I have other commitments, usually with my daughter, a few nights a week so not sure what I'm going to do. I've asked the yard to turnout as late as possible but since they were all gone when I got there at 6.20 I don't think it'll help. Any suggestions?


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## Mince Pie (17 July 2012)

I know, I'm gutted! I'm not sure if it makes a difference, but whilst he does go out from about 4/5 to 7/8 there are other horses out in the same field during the day? However having said that he has been out 24/7 every summer up until now.

I am squirting hydrogen peroxide (not neat obviously!) into the grooves next to the frogs, and will do for the next week at least to see if that makes a difference. Also the mag ox and brewers yeast should start tomorrow.


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## cptrayes (17 July 2012)

We need muzzles with a timer that makes them drop off at midnight, and has a homing system so we can find them again!

Hopefully the BY and Mgo will make as big a difference to him as they do to mine and my friends' BHB . We all have footie horses without those two things.


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## Holly Hocks (17 July 2012)

BBH - have you tried Pro Hoof from Progressive Earth?  My  TB mare is 8 months into barefoot (although the first four months were in a field) and I noticed a big improvement when I started using this.  Mine is out 24/7 in a fairly lush field but her feet are doing brilliantly - this morning I got her out of her field with soaking feet, towelled them off an and then took her long-reining for 45 minutes.  There is quite a bit of gravel on the roads and some stonier areas as well, but she never broke stride and I was nearly having to jog to keep up with her walk.  I can only put it down to the Pro Hoof and the Field Paste which I put on her soles every few days.


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## Mince Pie (17 July 2012)

How much of each do you feed? I got my MgO from Pro Earth on Ebay who says 15mg but I also emailed Nic at Rockley who said I need to feed 50mg? Also with the 2HO treatment and supps do you think his feet will be ok in 6 weeks when the shoes come back off? Will it do much damage having shoes on for 6 weeks or would you do less? Farrier comes every week to the yard so can be flexible.


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## cptrayes (17 July 2012)

Go with Nic. I feed about 40g at the moment.  It is a safe thing to feed because they don't store it, they just flush out whatever they don't use in their wee.

I gave mine 50g of Brewers Yeast too, but now I use 15g of yea-sacc, which is a live yeast so you do not need so much of it.


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## Mince Pie (17 July 2012)

Do you feed both BY and YS?


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## cptrayes (17 July 2012)

No, sorry  One or t'other not both!   I got a batch of BY mine would not eat (it varies depending on what drink was made with it) and had to give it up. Yea-sacc has never had anything made with it and is more consistenly palatable.


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## ester (17 July 2012)

ditto, we are on about 35/40 g of mgox, 

one or the other BY/YS

my boy will not eat the BY, I'd happily send you some to try (have a whole sack sat in a bin   ) but am not at the horses for 2 weeks now!


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## cptrayes (17 July 2012)

Ouch Ester - that's not cheap! £50 a sack last time I bought


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## Mince Pie (17 July 2012)

Thanks ester but we have a small pot of the feedmark stuff which should be here tomorrow. I'm not too worried though - this is the pony that eats bonios!!


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## ester (17 July 2012)

ah you might be ok then, mine is very fussy for a cob . We did try adding it very slowly and covering it with cider vinegar but not happening.. and put him off eating any of it for a few days so figure best he gets the rest atm! CP I'm assuming the YS smells yeasty? I'm not sure he would eat that either, thought I might certainly give it a try. Am just working on getting all the other supps/minerals to become 'normal' . I think he does it just so he can still have some pony nuts to tempt. 

The yellow one will eat it up, though she has shoes on .


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## cptrayes (17 July 2012)

It hardly smells at all. The problem with BY is that an alcoholic drink has been made out of it and then it is collected and dried to a powder, concentrating the smell. Yea-sacc is "virgin" yeast, if you see what I mean. Nothing else has ever been made with it, it's not been made to ferment,  and it smells a lot less. It's a while since I bought it by itself, but I can't remember it smelling much at all. 

I feed it because mine go footie without it, and I think that is because it has two beneficial effects on the gut. It suppresses something that causes inflammation, and it encourages something else that suppresses inflammation. I cant' remember all the long words, but we had a gut specialist on here a year back who wrote it all in a post.


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## Bikerchickone (17 July 2012)

My lad has the 50g of mag ox as suggested by Nic, and it really does make a difference. Some of the manufacturers will tell you that their mag ox is purer than others and so suggest you feed less but from what Nic said this isn't the case. All mag ox is about 50% magnesium no matter what type you buy so to feed 25g of magnesium you need to feed 50g of mag ox. The only difference between mag ox from progressive earth and cal mag is that the cal mag is far cheaper and therefore less palatable. Luckily for me my boy will happily eat cal mag so I pay about £17 for 25kgs, which should easily last us a year. 

If anyone wants Nic's words on the subject I'll happily go back through my emails as my memory of it probably doesn't make much sense!


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## Bikerchickone (17 July 2012)

Sorry meant to also say cal mag is a little less refined and therefore less palatable!


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## TwoStroke (19 July 2012)

It may be the photos, but it looks like the frog has been trimmed a bit? If so, maybe try leaving it untrimmed in future, see if it makes a difference?


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## Mince Pie (4 September 2012)

Right guys update time!

Pony is now due to see the farrier again and I was thinking that we'll take the shoes off and see what happens. He's been on MagOx and BY for nearly 8 weeks now and is not feeling his back feet at all so hopefully it's taken effect! However we are now in hunting season, and whilst he'll only be out once a month he will need to be kept fit due to our land (hills!). So do you think I should keep shoes on until spring or will he be OK in full work from the get go? Quite happy to stick to the roads but worried about wear.

Also the MagOx has nearly run out so I was thinking that instead of using BY/MagOx separately I'd get some ProHoof instead? He's also now on Pink Powder which apparently has yeast in it so should be covered now with the PP and PH?


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## Oberon (4 September 2012)

Broke_But_Happy said:



			Right guys update time!

Pony is now due to see the farrier again and I was thinking that we'll take the shoes off and see what happens. He's been on MagOx and BY for nearly 8 weeks now and is not feeling his back feet at all so hopefully it's taken effect! However we are now in hunting season, and whilst he'll only be out once a month he will need to be kept fit due to our land (hills!). So do you think I should keep shoes on until spring or will he be OK in full work from the get go? Quite happy to stick to the roads but worried about wear.

Also the MagOx has nearly run out so I was thinking that instead of using BY/MagOx separately I'd get some ProHoof instead? He's also now on Pink Powder which apparently has yeast in it so should be covered now with the PP and PH?
		
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If you look at the ingredients of PP - it's BY, magnesium, whey protein powder (like the bodybuilders use), salt and glutamine.

The PH contains magnesium, glutamine, yea-sacc (the live version of BY) as well as zinc and copper.

You could either buy the magnesium and BY separately or pick up some PH instead. PP isn't necessary.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (4 September 2012)

I could squash my oldies feet at the moment with my hands they are that soft and on surface/grass/soft ground hes fine but even on flat tarmac hes feeling them. Has only had the shoes off about 5 weeks but he was sound from the word go last year when they came off.

Feet are also in some state with cracking and chipping but nothing really farrier can do as nowt there to rasp or trim off 

Hoping his stable will be sorted in the next few weeks so as I can get him in for a bit during the day.


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## cptrayes (4 September 2012)

Black Beastie said:



			I could squash my oldies feet at the moment with my hands they are that soft and on surface/grass/soft ground hes fine but even on flat tarmac hes feeling them.
		
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That isn't normal even in this wet summer. Has he been tested for Cushings or Insulin Resistance?


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## Roasted Chestnuts (4 September 2012)

cptrayes said:



			That isn't normal even in this wet summer. Has he been tested for Cushings or Insulin Resistance?
		
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Not recently but shows no other signs of either, his health, weight, temperament, appetite, activity, habits are all normal.

Farrier looked and said just too much wet but being honest everything is soaking up here and the ground isnt the best draining but all I have until stable is ready  Been walking him up and down the lane daily to the stables (grown over hardcore) and a hack a week to the forest (over tarmac to soft/grass lanes) to try to harden them up.


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## Mince Pie (4 September 2012)

Hi Oberon, PP was as a general vit/min supplement rather than for his feet - would you say one of the balancers instead or is PH a balancer as well? He's on such restricted rations that I feel he needs a vit/min supplement of some kind


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## cptrayes (4 September 2012)

Are his feet that bad in winter? If not, I would, at his age, test for Cushings. Sometimes the feet can be the first sign. I have a friend who tested her Arab for it because of sensitive soles, no other symptoms, and the Vet was very surprised it came back positive. A tiny dose of pergolide has sorted him out completely.


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## Oberon (4 September 2012)

Broke_But_Happy said:



			Hi Oberon, PP was as a general vit/min supplement rather than for his feet - would you say one of the balancers instead or is PH a balancer as well? He's on such restricted rations that I feel he needs a vit/min supplement of some kind 

Click to expand...

PH is the whole deal - alongside forage, sunlight and the horse's internal bacteria - you won't need anything else. You even get added vitamin E in it (which is helpful for oldies/restricted rations).

It's a general vitamin and mineral supplement,but they called it Pro Hoof as the makers are hoof nerds


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## Roasted Chestnuts (4 September 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Are his feet that bad in winter? If not, I would, at his age, test for Cushings. Sometimes the feet can be the first sign. I have a friend who tested her Arab for it because of sensitive soles, no other symptoms, and the Vet was very surprised it came back positive. A tiny dose of pergolide has sorted him out completely.
		
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never been this soft. I took his shoes off in October last year and he was sound from the word go on all surfaces, then he went to his loaners and was shod and now I have him back and hes as above.

Ive got a tub of equimins hoofmender for him which I will start shortly as his biotin is finishing and though this was more comprehensive than just biotin. Hoping once he can come in and dry out the feet will harden up and he wont be as sore.

If he continues to be then I will get him tested as have never though about the above before, thank you


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## Goldenstar (4 September 2012)

I had one shod yesterday , he's a hunter BF since mid march , he's worked right though but just could manage enough work BF his hind feet where an issue too I had to boot him behind as well as in front when the weather was wet .
Did everything bare strip grazing at night in during day low sugar diet etc etc he's a horse that has complex and severe health problems in the past  I feel this be linked to some of the issues .
I had planned to send him autumn hunting BF and shoe him for the opening meet but he would not take the extra work without getting sore and I would worry about boots for hunting type situations so I took the desision to shoe.
On the positive he's been worked all summer but goes into the season with a healthy  whole foot so should finish the season in better shade than last year when he went into the season having had shoes on since April .
His frogs are 50% larger and his heels are much less contracted  he's landing heel first he finished last season landing toe first .
My trimmer who has been so helpful has talked a good farrier into doing him despite his book being full so he has a nice set of natural balance shoes on.
He's looking trim for him having been in work all summer and has more muscle than I have even seen him with.
So there's a lot of good come out of it but I feel a bit deflated I will do the same next year and see if I can do better.


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## Oberon (4 September 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Are his feet that bad in winter? If not, I would, at his age, test for Cushings. Sometimes the feet can be the first sign. I have a friend who tested her Arab for it because of sensitive soles, no other symptoms, and the Vet was very surprised it came back positive. A tiny dose of pergolide has sorted him out completely.
		
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Obi's soles are what tipped me off re Cushings. Vet thought I was being a bit over zealous in testing him when he looked otherwise well (although his coat was a bit duller than it had been) and his level came back at over 200 . Then it went to 500 ..now (on 2mg Prascend) it's 127. He has looked well the whole time.

When this pic was taken his level is 127 - would you guess it?


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## cptrayes (5 September 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			I had one shod yesterday , he's a hunter BF since mid march , he's worked right though but just could manage enough work BF his hind feet where an issue too I had to boot him behind as well as in front when the weather was wet .
Did everything bare strip grazing at night in during day low sugar diet etc etc he's a horse that has complex and severe health problems in the past  I feel this be linked to some of the issues .
I had planned to send him autumn hunting BF and shoe him for the opening meet but he would not take the extra work without getting sore and I would worry about boots for hunting type situations so I took the desision to shoe.
On the positive he's been worked all summer but goes into the season with a healthy  whole foot so should finish the season in better shade than last year when he went into the season having had shoes on since April .
His frogs are 50% larger and his heels are much less contracted  he's landing heel first he finished last season landing toe first .
My trimmer who has been so helpful has talked a good farrier into doing him despite his book being full so he has a nice set of natural balance shoes on.
He's looking trim for him having been in work all summer and has more muscle than I have even seen him with.
So there's a lot of good come out of it but I feel a bit deflated I will do the same next year and see if I can do better.
		
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Good decision GS please don't beat yourself up about it. These horses are only alive in the first place because they have been bred for us to ride. Most horses will go through their whole lives having no problems with shoes. 

Happy hunting! I'll think of you as I pop my next hedge on Saturday


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## Fransurrey (14 September 2012)

SusieT said:



			First bit as a quote, second was a reply-to clarify-if he's lame without shoes and you cannot find a cause-shoe him, I have yet to see a horse go down with laminitis after being shod when not coping without shoes.
		
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Actually my own horse did exactly this, in 2008. That doesn't mean don't shoe, but what I'm saying is that if you shoe without addressing other concerns (weight, grass intake, foot health, foot balance), then beware. I was going through a rough time back then, so let things go. It cost me £400 to learn that and I should have known (much) better!


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## Fransurrey (14 September 2012)

cptrayes said:



			It suppresses something that causes inflammation, and it encourages something else that suppresses inflammation. I cant' remember all the long words, but we had a gut specialist on here a year back who wrote it all in a post.
		
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lol, that was me. I was working in gastro-intestinal disease, looking at mechanisms of inflammation and wound healing. Most of the work has been done on S.boulardii (a related strain), which is used routinely to treat botulism and cholera related diarrhoea in other countries. Sadly, I work in respiratory, now (was made redundant), but there's lots of free info if you look for it. The yeast suppresses IL-8 (pro-inflammatory cytokine) and produces an enzyme that cleaves Clostridium toxin, amongst other things. It also binds to bacteria, occupying binding sites that would otherwise enable the bacteria to bind to the gut wall, the first step of infection (and trigger of inflammatory pathways). 
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2761627/


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## Serephin (14 September 2012)

I haven't read all the thread, but just wanted to hijack - I am currently giving my horse Equimins Advance Concentrate Powder.  Is is as good as Pro Hoof?  Its been two months and he definitely looks more shiny than he did before.  I also feed yea-sacc.

His feet are good, but he does feel the odd sharp stone.


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