# Livery yard - Trading Standards?



## milesjess (16 January 2015)

Just wondered, not going into full detail due to nature of post but if a livery yard is actively taking on liveries/ advertising/ taking money/ providing invoices/ operating as a business without licence/ insurance/ declaring tax, what is the process of reporting them? 

As I say, can't go into full detail but any help would be appreciated?


----------



## Pearlsasinger (16 January 2015)

The best route would be to notify  the tax office.  They really don't like tax evasion.  You should be aware that there is no licensing scheme for livery yards in UK, only for RS.


----------



## popsdosh (16 January 2015)

milesjess said:



			Just wondered, not going into full detail due to nature of post but if a livery yard is actively taking on liveries/ advertising/ taking money/ providing invoices/ operating as a business without licence/ insurance/ declaring tax, what is the process of reporting them? 

As I say, can't go into full detail but any help would be appreciated?
		
Click to expand...

Report them to HMRC however I very much doubt they are not paying tax as they are issuing invoices! They would be stupid to if they are not declaring it!How do you know they are not declaring Tax?

As for the others what are you reporting as they dont need a licence and they dont have to have insurance! Its their risk if they dont have insurance but there is no legal requirement for it.

If it was a riding school they would but thats a different matter. At the end of the day there are no regulations covering livery yards ,if there were half would close down.


----------



## jrp204 (16 January 2015)

There is a difference in not declaring income and not paying tax. They could be declaring but are not earning enough after taking out expenses etc that they are under their tax threshold. If they are declaring and then not paying tax the HMRC will catch up them. If they are not declaring the income is it any of your business?
Other than that they are not doing anything wrong. You have obviously got a bee in your bonnet.


----------



## milesjess (16 January 2015)

It's not a riding school; weren't sure if they needed insurance but do they not need some sort of approval to be a livery yard? 

As for tax evasion, again it's something that they'd have to investigate to confirm it.. I'm sure all will come to light with the right people looking into it.


----------



## milesjess (16 January 2015)

jrp204 said:



			There is a difference in not declaring income and not paying tax. They could be declaring but are not earning enough after taking out expenses etc that they are under their tax threshold. If they are declaring and then not paying tax the HMRC will catch up them. If they are not declaring the income is it any of your business?
Other than that they are not doing anything wrong. You have obviously got a bee in your bonnet.
		
Click to expand...

I'm not getting into a debate - I'm asking for advice end of. It is my business, as it is everyone else's who is suspected of not doing what they are supposed to. There's no 'bee in my bonnet', as you put it. 

If I need advice on a matter then I'll ask for it, I don't have to justify or explain myself.


----------



## The Fuzzy Furry (16 January 2015)

No approval required from any bodies to run a livery yard at all. Those 'better' yards sometimes seek to be BHS approved, but they are a minority in the big scheme of things.
Yes, they should be paying tax (but thats their business to do so, nobody elses)
Yes, they 'ought' to have insurances, but again - its not mandatory.

OP, what exactly is the problem? :confused3:


----------



## sarahw123 (16 January 2015)

milesjess said:



			I'm not getting into a debate - I'm asking for advice end of. It is my business, as it is everyone else's who is suspected of not doing what they are supposed to. There's no 'bee in my bonnet', as you put it. 

If I need advice on a matter then I'll ask for it, I don't have to justify or explain myself.
		
Click to expand...

Why not google it? The amount of people that come on here to bitch or be busy bodies is so tiresome. 
Agree with milesjess post.


----------



## sarahw123 (16 January 2015)

Sorry, agree with jrp204. Brain not working


----------



## popsdosh (16 January 2015)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			No approval required from any bodies to run a livery yard at all. Those 'better' yards sometimes seek to be BHS approved, but they are a minority in the big scheme of things.
Yes, they should be paying tax (but thats their business to do so, nobody elses)
Yes, they 'ought' to have insurances, but again - its not mandatory.

OP, what exactly is the problem? :confused3:
		
Click to expand...

I suspect somebody upset or competition. 
OP in your last post you have just contradicted yourself You said the word as well suspected !!! Just take a deep breath before you contact HMRC as I said in my post anybody issuing invoices are very unlikely to not be declaring income for tax purposes!
Heres the link to report it ,I hope you feel better for it!

https://online.hmrc.gov.uk/shortforms/form/TEH_IRF


----------



## criso (16 January 2015)

popsdosh said:



			I suspect somebody upset or competition.]
		
Click to expand...

Not necessarily, I'm sure most of us over the years have seen livery yards which are appalling and common sense says surely they can't be allowed to operate like this.

However there is not a lot you can do to report them for being substandard, incompetent or downright dangerous unless they are breaking the law.

The only things they have to comply with is tax and depending on the type of property they should probably be paying business rates.


----------



## Wagtail (16 January 2015)

Oh FFS keep your nose out of it. The likelihood is they won't owe any tax in any case. I am registered with the inland revenue and I made a LOSS the first few years. Even now I am not even coming close to owing tax. There is not a lot to be made out of a livery business. And I only do full livery. Anyway, how do you know they do not have insurance/pay tax etc? Yes they should be registered for business rates too but for the past few years low income businesses have had 100% rebate, so again nothing owed there. It is up to the YO to make sure they are registered with these authorities. If/when they are found out then anything owed will be backdated to when they commenced trading. They MAY be eligible for a fine, again, their business, not yours. I would think differently if they were claiming benefits and not declaring earnings, but not if they are trying to scratch out a living which believe me, will be a pittance.


----------



## Batgirl (16 January 2015)

Every business legally HAS to have employers liability insurance if it has employees (or volunteers).  PL is another matter


----------



## Nightmare before Christmas (16 January 2015)

Who cares really. It's the business owners thing to worry about not yours really


----------



## milesjess (16 January 2015)

Wagtail said:



			Oh FFS keep your nose out of it. The likelihood is they won't owe any tax in any case. I am registered with the inland revenue and I made a LOSS the first few years. Even now I am not even coming close to owing tax. There is not a lot to be made out of a livery business. And I only do full livery. Anyway, how do you know they do not have insurance/pay tax etc? Yes they should be registered for business rates too but for the past few years low income businesses have had 100% rebate, so again nothing owed there. It is up to the YO to make sure they are registered with these authorities. If/when they are found out then anything owed will be backdated to when they commenced trading. They MAY be eligible for a fine, again, their business, not yours. I would think differently if they were claiming benefits and not declaring earnings, but not if they are trying to scratch out a living which believe me, will be a pittance.
		
Click to expand...

Charming... Excuse me for asking for 'advice'! There's me thinking that's what a forum is for.

I WONT mind my own business and will take what ever steps necessary if I need to. Like I said the full picture is painted because I don't want to announce it on a public forum. 

Thanks to all those who have answered my query and not jumped down my throat. 

Oh and to clarify, I am NOT jealous/ competition/ envious etc... 

Thank you


----------



## sarahw123 (16 January 2015)

EXACTLY - this is a PUBLIC FORUM. If its secretive/sensitive, go through proper process and contact HMRC. They can probably help more anyway. 
I don't know about anyone else, but I would google/phone hmrc as first point of call. 
People just get a bit fed up with these kind of threads, hence the majority of replies. No one likes a busy body.


----------



## milesjess (16 January 2015)

sarahw123 said:



			EXACTLY - this is a PUBLIC FORUM. If its secretive/sensitive, go through proper process and contact HMRC. They can probably help more anyway. 
I don't know about anyone else, but I would google/phone hmrc as first point of call. 
People just get a bit fed up with these kind of threads, hence the majority of replies. No one likes a busy body.
		
Click to expand...

But I couldn't go and speak to them without knowing were to go to... Hence the post 

As fed up as people get, it is a forum.


----------



## popsdosh (16 January 2015)

Can I suggest OP fill in the online form I linked for you it is totally anonymous but you do need to enter your details. However if you are expecting to hear back from them you wont as it does not work like thjat. So it wont answer any questions for you. The people behind it will most likely hear nothing either as HMRC wont look at it unless they think there is an issue.


----------



## Tiddlypom (16 January 2015)

Can't help the OP, but actually it's quite interesting to hear the legalities of these things. I'm sure that many of us know yards that operate below the radar. Some are good, many are rubbish.

The insurance side would bother me (if a yard employs someone but does not have appropriate liability).


----------



## Wagtail (16 January 2015)

I just think it is a spiteful thing to do, hence my response. It's not like they will be raking it in; quite the contrary. I would understand your concern if they were claiming benefits and not declaring it, but in the vast majority of cases they will not owe any tax in any case... I just can't understand people who have nothing better to do than tell tales on others.


----------



## sarahw123 (16 January 2015)

Wagtail said:



			I just think it is a spiteful thing to do, hence my response. It's not like they will be raking it in; quite the contrary. I would understand your concern if they were claiming benefits and not declaring it, but in the vast majority of cases they will not owe any tax in any case... I just can't understand people who have nothing better to do than tell tales on others.
		
Click to expand...

Hear hear!

And as for not knowing where to go/look for info - in this day and age are you kidding me? In the time it took to create this thread most would have found what they needed to via the Internet. Without broadcasting it


----------



## Batgirl (16 January 2015)

Wagtail said:



			I just think it is a spiteful thing to do, hence my response. It's not like they will be raking it in; quite the contrary. I would understand your concern if they were claiming benefits and not declaring it, but in the vast majority of cases they will not owe any tax in any case... I just can't understand people who have nothing better to do than tell tales on others.
		
Click to expand...

Having a lack of insurance is the bigger issue here, what is to say something horrible couldn't happen and there would be no way or recouping losses, they are also a drain on those who operate properly.


----------



## Goldenstar (16 January 2015)

Madly you don't need PL insurance to run a livery yard.
I expect many many small yards never get near to making enough to go over the tax threshold .


----------



## Dry Rot (16 January 2015)

My goodness, a lot of touchy people around today! Whose to say the OP doesn't operate one of these yards and wants to check out the legalities before getting into trouble? Every question adds to the general knowledge and I for one am interested in the answers -- and I've no intentions of opening a yard (from bitter experience!) or reporting anyone who does.

One thing that did put me off when I was asked if I would take liveries (rather than let grazing) is that the land would go from agricultural to amenity and that could affect death duties. But then I won't be around to pay them, will I? So maybe I don't care after all!


----------



## chocolategirl (16 January 2015)

jrp204 said:



			There is a difference in not declaring income and not paying tax. They could be declaring but are not earning enough after taking out expenses etc that they are under their tax threshold. If they are declaring and then not paying tax the HMRC will catch up them. If they are not declaring the income is it any of your business?
Other than that they are not doing anything wrong. You have obviously got a bee in your bonnet.
		
Click to expand...

Agree with this. I think clients need to be very careful which thread they start pulling at! Most livery yard couldn't operate if they had to follow licensing regs etc and when they close that will double if not treble the price of keeping your horse at livery. And that's assuming you can find one!


----------



## honetpot (16 January 2015)

Nightmare before Christmas said:



			Who cares really. It's the business owners thing to worry about not yours really
		
Click to expand...

 Actually its every ones business. Every business that supplies goods or services to the public should have public liability and if they employ anyone have employees liability. I have no liveries but do own land and I have insurance for stock straying, people being injured on my property and products liability in case I sell a few apples and someone bites into a grub.
  I wonder if you would be so sanguine if it was a garage, or car trader dealing from his home. My daughter is a seamstress , an a outwardly low risk occupation but she has full liability insurance to if your wedding dress goes up in smoke whist in here care, she's covered. If they are running a business they should also pay business rates on any buildings, whether they get 100% relief or not.


----------



## popsdosh (16 January 2015)

The original question was about legal things, insurance is not something you are legally required to have to run a livery. Its up to you if you wish to run the risk of not having it.
Nobody up to now has suggested they have employees so thats probably not an issue but honestly is it really anybody elses business whether they have it apart from them and their employees.
I think people have got sucked in here as there has been no proof that they dont comply with any of their responsibilities offered so far just insinuations! 
 See I take   'actively taking on liveries/ advertising/ taking money/ providing invoices/'   as meaning they are not trying to hide their running a business, perhaps others feel differently.


----------



## Pearlsasinger (16 January 2015)

Wagtail said:



			Oh FFS keep your nose out of it. The likelihood is they won't owe any tax in any case. I am registered with the inland revenue and I made a LOSS the first few years. Even now I am not even coming close to owing tax. There is not a lot to be made out of a livery business. And I only do full livery. Anyway, how do you know they do not have insurance/pay tax etc? Yes they should be registered for business rates too but for the past few years low income businesses have had 100% rebate, so again nothing owed there. It is up to the YO to make sure they are registered with these authorities. If/when they are found out then anything owed will be backdated to when they commenced trading. They MAY be eligible for a fine, again, their business, not yours. I would think differently if they were claiming benefits and not declaring earnings, but not if they are trying to scratch out a living which believe me, will be a pittance.
		
Click to expand...


Can I ask, what is the difference between claiming benefits and running a business and not declaring your income for tax purposes (which appears to be what OP suspects in this case)?  Both surely are cases of defrauding the tax-payer?


----------



## dieseldog (16 January 2015)

This is an odd post with odd replies.  At what point is tax evasion morally OK, if you earn less than £20K, if you are an equine enterprise?  No one likes Amazon's lack of tax paying or Specsavers - but they are doing tax avoidance, which is legal, not tax evasion which is illegal.


----------



## popsdosh (16 January 2015)

Pearlsasinger said:



			Can I ask, what is the difference between claiming benefits and running a business and not declaring your income for tax purposes (which appears to be what OP suspects in this case)?  Both surely are cases of defrauding the tax-payer?
		
Click to expand...

Just to be a little picky then sorry . The OP did not say suspect it was actually worded as fact.A dangerous thing for them to do from a personal point of view if they are wrong .

 'is actively taking on liveries/ advertising/ taking money/ providing invoices/ operating as a business without licence/ insurance/ declaring tax, what is the process of reporting them? '

Would you be happy if somebody said that about you? I do agree with you on the first part of your quote though there should be no distinction between them!


----------



## chocolategirl (16 January 2015)

Pearlsasinger said:



			Can I ask, what is the difference between claiming benefits and running a business and not declaring your income for tax purposes (which appears to be what OP suspects in this case)?  Both surely are cases of defrauding the tax-payer?
		
Click to expand...

Just a guess here, but if you claim benefits wrongly, then you are getting tax payers money for doing absolutely **** all, but if you are not declaring all income, then maybe, and I emphasise the maybe, you are working very hard for a pittance and struggling to make your business work?? Just a guess though! I'm not condoning either practise!


----------



## popsdosh (16 January 2015)

chocolategirl said:



			Just a guess here, but if you claim benefits wrongly, then you are getting tax payers money for doing absolutely **** all, but if you are not declaring all income, then maybe, and I emphasise the maybe, you are working very hard for a pittance and struggling to make your business work?? Just a guess though! I'm not condoning either practise!
		
Click to expand...

If it was struggling that much there would be no tax to pay! Why should somebody running a business be treated any better than anybody on PAYE earning the same nett income?


----------



## Wagtail (16 January 2015)

Pearlsasinger said:



			Can I ask, what is the difference between claiming benefits and running a business and not declaring your income for tax purposes (which appears to be what OP suspects in this case)?  Both surely are cases of defrauding the tax-payer?
		
Click to expand...

Very few livery yards make enough to pay tax. If they do, then they would have to employ people and pay NI contributions etc. They would be idiots not to operate above the radar. Personally, I wouldn't report anyone for doing either. Just not a tell tale I suppose, no matter what I think of what they are doing, other than child abuse, animal abuse, murder or burglary and such like.


----------



## KautoStar1 (16 January 2015)

I go to work & I fall into x tax bracket whether I like it or not & i have to pay my taxes. If you are taking money from people to earn a living, however that may be then you are required to pay tax. You declare your earnings & the tax office works out what you owe. It's not fair but that's life.


----------



## Luci07 (16 January 2015)

But still an interesting thread. I don't think anyone who has 1/4 of a brain would think that they could make a really good whack out of livery. I suppose you could do reasonably well (ish) if you owned your own yard but otherwise...it's definitely a lifestyle choice.

Theoretically, all the owners should have their own PIL and insurance but a good friend who has a small yard pays extra to have her own backup cover as well. 

Fact is, as soon as the word "horse" is mentioned, all costs seem to rocket!


----------



## bluewhippet (16 January 2015)

Pearlsasinger said:



			Can I ask, what is the difference between claiming benefits and running a business and not declaring your income for tax purposes (which appears to be what OP suspects in this case)?  Both surely are cases of defrauding the tax-payer?
		
Click to expand...

Couldn't agree more. Don't understand why tax evasion is thought to be acceptable whereas benefit fraud is lower than low.


----------



## honetpot (16 January 2015)

There some reasons for being self employed and doing a self assessment for form rather than working for someone else and doing PAYE, you have so many months to pay the tax at the end of the tax year. I was told at the tax office if you run a business that consistently does not make any money its called a hobby.


----------



## Nightmare before Christmas (16 January 2015)

honetpot said:



			Actually its every ones business. Every business that supplies goods or services to the public should have public liability and if they employ anyone have employees liability. I have no liveries but do own land and I have insurance for stock straying, people being injured on my property and products liability in case I sell a few apples and someone bites into a grub.
  I wonder if you would be so sanguine if it was a garage, or car trader dealing from his home. My daughter is a seamstress , an a outwardly low risk occupation but she has full liability insurance to if your wedding dress goes up in smoke whist in here care, she's covered. If they are running a business they should also pay business rates on any buildings, whether they get 100% relief or not.
		
Click to expand...

It's not everyone's business though? I run a yard and im insured, pay NI and tax if required. But that's my business, no one else's


----------



## lrw0250 (17 January 2015)

Actually glad this thread came up as was wondering what is required to "legally" run a livery yard recently. Not much it seems!

 It was due to a slightly different situation as also pulls in a benefit fraud issue but lady local to us rents a house with land and stables where she lives and keeps her own horses but also those of a few of her friends who she refers to in conversation as her liveries. She has plenty time to run the yard as does not work and is on benefits including disability. Also has a granddaughter who helps out on the yard but also claims to be her carer and gets allowance for this. They are quite open about it. I take it all with a pinch of salt as I would like to believe that it can't be possible to fool the system to that extent but why would you lie to people about being on benefits if you aren't? Mind boggles but like others have said I do not know the full situation so none of my business. If I had hard facts then hell yes I would report them for benefit fraud!


----------



## charlie76 (17 January 2015)

Like  wagtail, I run a small livery yard and do my tax returns as I'm supposed to however in the first two years I have been operating I have made a loss and will prob be the same this year, if its not it will be no where near enough to be taxed! I had a conversation only yesterday that I'm sure livery owners think us livery yard owners a raking it, that couldn't be further from the truth!
I do have a staff member but she is an apprentice so not earning enough for ni contributions.
I do have public liability insurance and employee insurance and insurance to teach however.
Op, how can you possibly know whether they are earning enough to pay tax unless you are their book keeper?!?
I think people see what is being charged and assume wrongly that there is big money involved. 
Outgoings for a livery yard are huge
Rent
Electric
Water
Business rates
Insurance
Maintenance
Staff wages
Staff training
Feed
Hay
Bedding
Muck removal
Fuel for vehicles
Tax and insurance for vehicles
The list is endless!


----------



## Arzada (17 January 2015)

charlie76 said:



			I'm sure livery owners think us livery yard owners a raking it
		
Click to expand...

Bit of a generalisation! I don't think so. If I like the yard and my horse is happy and I can afford the costs then that's the end of the matter for me.


----------



## charlie76 (17 January 2015)

Arzada said:



			Bit of a generalisation! I don't think so. If I like the yard and my horse is happy and I can afford the costs then that's the end of the matter for me.
		
Click to expand...

Ok , maybe not all but looking at many many threads on here , that's the impression that is given by many people on here

My liveries appreciate the cost involved and are greatful for the service they receive and are all brilliant but from reading posts about setting up yards, liveries moaning about not getting enough for their money etc etc ,on here, there is a general impression that people think livery yards are a big money making venture( op included by the sounds of it) when in fact, its not.


----------



## Tiddlypom (17 January 2015)

It's not mentioned in the OP, but can anyone tell me what bumps your rates up from domestic (or whatever non business rates are called) to business rates? Also what is the difference in the amount? I was wondering if anyone who rents out a couple of stables should be liable for business rates.

I can't see how anyone makes a profit out of liveries. I own my own small horsey property and know how much it cost to put good equestrian facilites in place, and then to maintain them. I'd have thought that livery owners who do things by the book would be very unhappy at being undercut by those who wing it.

(I'm not intending to shop anybody, just curious.)


----------



## popsdosh (17 January 2015)

Can you define doing liveries by the book please.
There are different standards of liveries and it is down to peoples choice where they take their horses weighing cost against facilities. If you mean statutory regulations there are none that no other business has to adhere to.
Anybody who rents out stables of any sort are liable for business rates and that will be on all the facilities not just the boxes rented out. It kicks in as soon as you take money for giving a service.


----------



## Tiddlypom (17 January 2015)

popsdosh said:



			Can you define doing liveries by the book please.
		
Click to expand...

Erm, I suppose I mean complying with any statutory regulations to do with accepting money for providing a livery.

As oppose to getting £20 a week cash in hand, no questions asked or answered.


----------



## popsdosh (17 January 2015)

Tiddlypom said:



			Erm, I suppose I mean complying with any statutory regulations to do with accepting money for providing a livery.

As oppose to getting £20 a week cash in hand, no questions asked or answered.
		
Click to expand...

Simple answer there are none!


----------



## Broodle (17 January 2015)

Tiddlypom said:



			I'd have thought that livery owners who do things by the book would be very unhappy at being undercut by those who wing it.
		
Click to expand...

^^^This!

Those traders who fail to pay employees through the books/don't declare income/dodge business rates/don't have employees liability insurance etc etc make the playing field unlevel for those who do do things correctly and 'by the book'. 

I find some responses on this thread bizarre! You may not need a licence to operate a livery yard, but there are still many obligations that must be fulfilled as a business owner like any other business owner.


----------



## popsdosh (17 January 2015)

Dont think anybody has denied this! however the OP asked where to report a yard to and to some it appeared to be not something they would do and honestly I question the OPs motives. It was just pointed out that the only thing in the list that gave as reasons to report them was the tax issue , Still feel anybody bright enough to try and avoid tax is very unlikely to be handing out invoices as I am sure you may agree


----------



## amandaco2 (17 January 2015)

Agree. 



popsdosh said:



			If it was struggling that much there would be no tax to pay! Why should somebody running a business be treated any better than anybody on PAYE earning the same nett income?
		
Click to expand...


----------



## Wagtail (17 January 2015)

Tiddlypom said:



			It's not mentioned in the OP, but can anyone tell me what bumps your rates up from domestic (or whatever non business rates are called) to business rates? Also what is the difference in the amount? I was wondering if anyone who rents out a couple of stables should be liable for business rates.

I can't see how anyone makes a profit out of liveries. I own my own small horsey property and know how much it cost to put good equestrian facilites in place, and then to maintain them. I'd have thought that livery owners who do things by the book would be very unhappy at being undercut by those who wing it.

(I'm not intending to shop anybody, just curious.)
		
Click to expand...

If stables are more than a certain distance from the house then they will attract business rates even if only used for private use. In addition, any stables not used for your own horses but for other people's horses, whether paid for or given for free, attract business rates.


----------



## dieseldog (17 January 2015)

popsdosh said:



			Can you define doing liveries by the book please.

Anybody who rents out stables of any sort are liable for business rates and that will be on all the facilities not just the boxes rented out. It kicks in as soon as you take money for giving a service.
		
Click to expand...

Even if you don't rent out your stables you can be liable for business rates.  If the VOA considers your stables not in the curtilage of your garden they may try to get business rates out of you, even if you are only using them privately.  Something to think about when applying for planning permission .  And it isn't business rates it is either domestic rates or non domestic rates.

http://www.2010.voa.gov.uk/rli/static/HelpPages/English/help/help064-how_we_rate_stables.html

A discussion from a few years ago http://www.gardenlaw.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=16998


----------



## Orangehorse (17 January 2015)

Don't forget the VAT man either.  It does seem strange that there isn't some sort of licence for running a livery yard.  I am sure there are those that have beein going for years and and years and have never had any sort of planning permission, they have just started up and carried on.


----------



## popsdosh (17 January 2015)

I think a lot of livery yards would love to be anywhere near the VAT threshold.


----------



## AngieandBen (17 January 2015)

popsdosh said:



			I think a lot of livery yards would love to be anywhere near the VAT threshold.
		
Click to expand...

This;   I had a visit from the council about business rates a few years ago;  Once I told them I only kept my horses here ( my home as well ) they didn't ask any more questions.  I have had a few liveries ( only friends horses ) over the last 13 years, but as I only charged them £25 a week ( only here for a short period while  waiting for spaces elsewhere  )I doubt  I would have had to pay tax on it.


----------



## The Fuzzy Furry (17 January 2015)

Orangehorse said:



			It does seem strange that there isn't some sort of licence for running a livery yard.
		
Click to expand...

If equines came under the animal boarding act OR the keeping of livestock (DEFRA regs)  then there WOULD be far tighter restrictions.

However, they dont, so nowt to be done


----------



## Wagtail (17 January 2015)

Broodle said:



			I find some responses on this thread bizarre! You may not need a licence to operate a livery yard, but there are still many obligations that must be fulfilled as a business owner like any other business owner.
		
Click to expand...

I don't think anyone is arguing that livery yards should be treated any differently from anyone else paying tax. My objection is to actually REPORTING them. I would question the motives of anyone doing this, especially as the majority of yards would be under the tax threshold in any case.


----------



## Luci07 (17 January 2015)

With my cynical hat pulled firmly on, I don't see the benefits of being registered. It's yet another cost for horse owners. What is the benefit? Bad yards get a poor reputation quickly and when you look at a yard, you can see the most obvious things such as state of yard, stables, fields, how the horses look etc etc. Also, I seem to remember DEFRA being a very real threat to horses during foot and mouth when they tried to get horses reclassified.


----------



## Theocat (17 January 2015)

I'm afraid I think increased professionalism in the horse world would benefit everyone - professionals would get paid better because they wouldn't be competing with the cheap below-the-radar "businesses"; owners and riders should get better services and more comeback if things go wrong; horse welfare would increase because you'd get less of things being done on the cheap and corner cutting.  

Whether or not you are liable to pay tax, you should still declare your income. Everyone else has to if they run  any sort of business; why, yet again, does there seem to be a view that the "professional" horse world is somehow exempt from the tedious paperwork and rule-following that everyone else has to do?

And as far as insurance goes, that IS everyone's business. If a yard owner doesn't have public liability insurance and a horse gets through dodgy fencing in front of my car, it's very much my business. If I'm a livery and the stable hand is injured by my horse and not insured by the employer, how do you think I'm going to feel about that?

I suppose I believe in everyone doing their bit to make society work fairly. That means we don't pick and choose which rules we want to follow. Breaking and ignoring rules is one of the biggest sources of problems in the equine business world (broken livery contracts, etc) for owners and professionals - if you want to run a business, play fair and do it properly!


----------



## pixie (17 January 2015)

I think then that liveries need to be prepared to pay a more realistic amount of money for their horses keep....


----------



## Theocat (17 January 2015)

pixie said:



			I think then that liveries need to be prepared to pay a more realistic amount of money for their horses keep....
		
Click to expand...

I agree absolutely. I don't think it's in anyone's interest to keep horses at a livery that isn't making enough money. Sure, the weekly bill might be cheap, but we hear endless stories about poor fencing, poor field care, overstocking, poorly maintained stables ... Surely better for everyone that liveries are charged a fair price and people only keep horses if they can afford to pay that fair price?

£25 per week for stable and grazing is pretty unrealistic in most circumstances if you want a decent service for the livery and a fair wage for the YO. So why does it seem to be the norm?


----------



## ILuvCowparsely (17 January 2015)

Wagtail said:



			I just think it is a spiteful thing to do, hence my response. It's not like they will be raking it in; quite the contrary. I would understand your concern if they were claiming benefits and not declaring it, but in the vast majority of cases they will not owe any tax in any case... I just can't understand people who have nothing better to do than tell tales on others.
		
Click to expand...

I agree with wagtail we don't have insurance we state that in our contract and out rules - our income is low we make no money we don't want to be BHS approved as I have read and seen the terms you need  perfect fencing no grooming kits in stables etc which my liveries like.   BHS Approved is by no means assurance its a  perfect yard.


----------



## SusieT (17 January 2015)

hang on - why shouldn't someone not paying tax not be reported?
I pay my tax - why does joe bloggs down the road get to earn an extra 20-40% because he doesn't want to pay tax? I don't want to pay tax but why do I have to and joe bloggs doesn't? If joe bloggs isn't paying tax why shouldn't someone report him so that he can pay his fair share rather than get a free ride?


----------



## Nightmare before Christmas (17 January 2015)

I've never been approached im regards business rates nor know where to get info on this. If anyone could shed some light


----------



## SusieT (17 January 2015)

Also- regards the reason - op may have a welfare issue and the only way to get at it is through the tax system...


----------



## ILuvCowparsely (17 January 2015)

I think its very unwise to involve reporting a yard for no insurance etc.  Unless horses are being cruelly treated and abused.  the horse world is smaller than you think and this yard may use this forum and might eve recognize the picture in your avatar. 

 I make little to no profit  due to the day to day running and improvements in the yard.  Sorry I think its spiteful  unless your reasons are unfounded for the horses safety.

As long as a yard makes owners aware that there is no insurance  then I see no problem.


----------



## MotherOfChickens (17 January 2015)

Theocat said:



			. Surely better for everyone that liveries are charged a fair price and people only keep horses if they can afford to pay that fair price?

£25 per week for stable and grazing is pretty unrealistic in most circumstances if you want a decent service for the livery and a fair wage for the YO. So why does it seem to be the norm?
		
Click to expand...

completely agree although have been roundly shouted down on this board for saying this previously.


----------



## YorksG (17 January 2015)

I do wonder why it is considered spiteful to report a business who may or may not be evading tax, but consider it right and proper to report suspected benefit fraud? I can't see any difference.


----------



## Wagtail (17 January 2015)

SusieT said:



			hang on - why shouldn't someone not paying tax not be reported?
I pay my tax - why does joe bloggs down the road get to earn an extra 20-40% because he doesn't want to pay tax? I don't want to pay tax but why do I have to and joe bloggs doesn't? If joe bloggs isn't paying tax why shouldn't someone report him so that he can pay his fair share rather than get a free ride?
		
Click to expand...

As stated many times in this thread, it is highly unlikely that the livery owner owes tax.


----------



## Wagtail (17 January 2015)

YorksG said:



			I do wonder why it is considered spiteful to report a business who may or may not be evading tax, but consider it right and proper to report suspected benefit fraud? I can't see any difference.
		
Click to expand...

I personally wouldn't report either! I don't agree with tax evasion or benefits fraud, but have better things to do than go reporting it.


----------



## minesadouble (17 January 2015)

I think that the issue here is that it is most unlikely the OP has any knowledge as to whether the person concerned is paying taxes/has insurance and therefore is simply trying to cause trouble for the individual(s) concerned.
We are a taxable business but we have approx 50 liveries at any one time. It is most unlikely a person with a handful of liveries would be earning anything like enough for that income to be taxable. In my experience people who try to cause trouble for others often end up in far more trouble themselves.


----------



## ILuvCowparsely (17 January 2015)

I also ask myself what this poor yard has done to OP to make them go to this extreme.  Most like a disgruntle livery asked to leave the yard through their own wrong doings.

I just hope the OP has got backing as if this yard finds out she posted this thread they could print it out and use it as slander in court.   With a picture of their horse in the avatar and friends who may know this horse or this person  words can leak out.

Also how does the Op know so much about this yard 

the fact they don't pay tax
Insurance
License

 I hardly think the YO would disclose things like  tax and VAT and license to any livery they had.


----------



## YorksG (17 January 2015)

HGA-12 said:



			I also ask myself what this poor yard has done to OP to make them go to this extreme.  Most like a disgruntle livery asked to leave the yard through their own wrong doings.

I just hope the OP has got backing as if this yard finds out she posted this thread they could print it out and use it as slander in court.   With a picture of their horse in the avatar and friends who may know this horse or this person  words can leak out.

Also how does the Op know so much about this yard 

the fact they don't pay tax
Insurance
License

 I hardly think the YO would disclose things like  tax and VAT and license to any livery they had.
		
Click to expand...

Slander is spoken deffamation, libel is written and there is nothing to say which yard this is about!


----------



## Theocat (17 January 2015)

Just because the yard almost certainly doesn't owe tax, it doesn't mean they shouldn't declare income. If they don't owe anything they won't be charged - but it's up to HMRC to make that decision, not the individual because they CBA filling out a few forms... 

The morality of reporting is a different issue - but on the basis that someone bending rules probably bends them elsewhere (like liability insurance) then it does make it a bit more important.


----------



## ILuvCowparsely (17 January 2015)

YorksG said:



			Slander is spoken deffamation, libel is written and there is nothing to say which yard this is about!
		
Click to expand...

I know but these things have a way of getting out.  I think OP should leave well alone unless animals are in danger of being mistreated


----------



## honetpot (17 January 2015)

minesadouble said:



			I think that the issue here is that it is most unlikely the OP has any knowledge as to whether the person concerned is paying taxes/has insurance and therefore is simply trying to cause trouble for the individual(s) concerned.
We are a taxable business but we have approx 50 liveries at any one time. It is most unlikely a person with a handful of liveries would be earning anything like enough for that income to be taxable. In my experience people who try to cause trouble for others often end up in far more trouble themselves.
		
Click to expand...

But you not know what other taxable income they have. One year I worked for two employers at the same time and was self employed, all PAYE and self employed income was declared.


----------



## honetpot (17 January 2015)

HGA-12 said:



			I agree with wagtail we don't have insurance we state that in our contract and out rules - our income is low we make no money we don't want to be BHS approved as I have read and seen the terms you need  perfect fencing no grooming kits in stables etc which my liveries like.   BHS Approved is by no means assurance its a  perfect yard.
		
Click to expand...

 You must be crazy not to have insurance. Most household insurance covers you for accidents and legal fees if anyone try's to claim , and a stable yard is far more dangerous.


----------



## ILuvCowparsely (17 January 2015)

honetpot said:



			You must be crazy not to have insurance. Most household insurance covers you for accidents and legal fees if anyone try's to claim , and a stable yard is far more dangerous.
		
Click to expand...



The property has insurance obviously  but

 we don't  offer any  and it states that  our  contract,  liveries have their own insurance.  

 I am not airing anymore about my yard on a public forum.


----------



## pepsimaxrock (17 January 2015)

Wagtail said:



			I just think it is a spiteful thing to do, ......... I would understand your concern if they were claiming benefits and not declaring it..... I just can't understand people who have nothing better to do than tell tales on others.
		
Click to expand...

Hmm. 
So it's fine to shop potential benefits cheats but potential tax dodgers are ok??


----------



## pepsimaxrock (17 January 2015)

Theocat said:



			I'm afraid I think increased professionalism in the horse world would benefit everyone - professionals would get paid better because they wouldn't be competing with the cheap below-the-radar "businesses"; owners and riders should get better services and more comeback if things go wrong; horse welfare would increase because you'd get less of things being done on the cheap and corner cutting.  

Whether or not you are liable to pay tax, you should still declare your income. Everyone else has to if they run  any sort of business; why, yet again, does there seem to be a view that the "professional" horse world is somehow exempt from the tedious paperwork and rule-following that everyone else has to do?

And as far as insurance goes, that IS everyone's business. If a yard owner doesn't have public liability insurance and a horse gets through dodgy fencing in front of my car, it's very much my business. If I'm a livery and the stable hand is injured by my horse and not insured by the employer, how do you think I'm going to feel about that?

I suppose I believe in everyone doing their bit to make society work fairly. That means we don't pick and choose which rules we want to follow. Breaking and ignoring rules is one of the biggest sources of problems in the equine business world (broken livery contracts, etc) for owners and professionals - if you want to run a business, play fair and do it properly!
		
Click to expand...

This ^


----------



## amandaco2 (17 January 2015)

Agree with theocat.well put.


----------



## Spring Feather (17 January 2015)

Unless it's a decent sized livery yard the owner is likely making no/minimal profit and thus won't be eligible to pay any tax.  They will (or certainly should) file their income made from the yard.  As to the yard not being insured, well they are incredibly foolish if they have no insurance to cover their yard and the horses residing on it.  Livery yards don't require licensing therefore no one to report them to for not having it.


----------



## Goldenstar (17 January 2015)

TBH I think the reason that licensing of livery services has never occurred is that everyone that's ever looked at it seriously knows that any meaningful regulations will  increase the cost of providing livery considerably and seriously decrease that number of livery places available. 
And something will have to happen to all those horses .


----------



## chocolategirl (17 January 2015)

pixie said:



			I think then that liveries need to be prepared to pay a more realistic amount of money for their horses keep....
		
Click to expand...

Haha!! Absolutely! Be careful what you wish for people!


----------



## Spring Feather (17 January 2015)

pixie said:



			I think then that liveries need to be prepared to pay a more realistic amount of money for their horses keep....
		
Click to expand...

Quite a few do thankfully.  I'm easily the most expensive place in my area and I've been full for years.  I know a lot of little yards locally who charge half of what I do and they really struggle to get more than a handful of people through their doors.


----------



## Honey08 (18 January 2015)

Spring Feather said:



			Quite a few do thankfully.  I'm easily the most expensive place in my area and I've been full for years.  I know a lot of little yards locally who charge half of what I do and they really struggle to get more than a handful of people through their doors.
		
Click to expand...

You're in a different country though.  Not so much here, crappy cheap yards always seem chockablock and nicer yards that cost more turn over more.  I think a lot of people that have horses can't really afford them.


----------



## Spring Feather (18 January 2015)

Honey08 said:



			You're in a different country though.  Not so much here, crappy cheap yards always seem chockablock and nicer yards that cost more turn over more.  I think a lot of people that have horses can't really afford them.
		
Click to expand...

That's a shame then.  It's no wonder it's tough to make things work when people can't afford or aren't prepared to pay for good service.


----------



## Illusion100 (18 January 2015)

OP, I believe you have been given info on how to report if you wish. If this yard is doing something dodgy then that was their choice and if they end up in hot water over it, their problem. I would ensure to the best of your knowledge there is something suspect going on before reporting as if not it may not work in your favour.

As for opinions that many people can't afford horses so choose crappy cheap yards and to be careful what you wish for, every coin has two sides. Without less wealthy peoples love and dream ambition to own a horse, those yards wouldn't have a livelihood either.

So unless we are all going to petition that people must have a certain disposable income to own a horse and keep it on a yard that must maintain a 'suitable' standard, that debate is going nowhere.


----------



## milesjess (18 January 2015)

I have had my question answered, so thanks for that


----------



## milesjess (18 January 2015)

HGA-12 said:



			I also ask myself what this poor yard has done to OP to make them go to this extreme.  Most like a disgruntle livery asked to leave the yard through their own wrong doings.

I just hope the OP has got backing as if this yard finds out she posted this thread they could print it out and use it as slander in court.   With a picture of their horse in the avatar and friends who may know this horse or this person  words can leak out.

Also how does the Op know so much about this yard 

the fact they don't pay tax
Insurance
License

 I hardly think the YO would disclose things like  tax and VAT and license to any livery they had.
		
Click to expand...

That's why I have been vague, I haven't said it's about the yard I'm on currently, or if my avatar pic is related to it. Someone who knows me could prob recognise my horse but again, I've not mentioned which yard, location etc so I'm not creating slander 

Slander would be me saying, ''Do you know that yard XYZ, they don't pay tax or have insurance...'', I haven't said that at any point and wouldn't. That's why I'd let the right people look into it.


----------



## mollymad (18 January 2015)

sarahw123 said:



			Hear hear!

And as for not knowing where to go/look for info - in this day and age are you kidding me? In the time it took to create this thread most would have found what they needed to via the Internet. Without broadcasting it
		
Click to expand...

Well said!!! Horrible thing to do and spineless.


----------



## Theocat (18 January 2015)

Illusion100 said:



			Without less wealthy peoples love and dream ambition to own a horse, those yards wouldn't have a livelihood either.
		
Click to expand...

If they aren't earning enough to pay tax I'd argue that they don't have a livelihood at the moment - they aren't even earning minimum wage.


----------



## milesjess (18 January 2015)

mollymad said:



			Well said!!! Horrible thing to do and spineless.
		
Click to expand...

I have a healthy spine thanks


----------



## Illusion100 (18 January 2015)

Theocat said:



			If they aren't earning enough to pay tax I'd argue that they don't have a livelihood at the moment - they aren't even earning minimum wage.
		
Click to expand...

How do we know they aren't earning enough to pay tax? We can't assess this, so end of really!


----------



## mollymad (18 January 2015)

obviously not, is your sneaking around trying to report someone.


----------



## Tnavas (18 January 2015)

Going to disagree with the majority here.

If the OP suspects this establishment is evading paying tax then she should report it. If everything is in order then there is nothing to be concerned about.

They may be issuing invoices but not necessarily completing the process and declaring the income.

Just remember that when taxes are not paid the whole country suffers the effects.

Tax evasion is your business. Lack of funds affects how your schools and hospitals can be run, pensions and benifits are affected when the money is not there.


----------



## milesjess (18 January 2015)

mollymad said:



			obviously not, is your sneaking 

around trying to report someone.
		
Click to expand...

Hardly sneaking though am I.


----------



## ILuvCowparsely (18 January 2015)

In this world at the moment where so many people have got rid of horses due to recession,  yards are finding it hard to run day to day with many stables empty.  I find it sad that someone has it in themselves to try destroy a yards business for what ever reason other than if the horses were being cruelly treated.   

  They are probably working their buts off to make ends meet.  Insurance/tax aside, I am guessing it's a small yard so profits are low and bills are high.  Where will these liveries go you ask if they are booted out because of closure?? probably the next yard or further afield or the horse booted out on grass as there are no spaces for them locally.  The next yard itself may not be insured/taxed etc where will you stop? try close them down.


Unless the horses are being  badly treated or welfare issue why don't you just move on and let nature run it's course.  Maybe liveries at this yard are low income and won't afford to move to a more expensive yard so result - horse on a ever increasing flooded market for sale to end up  sold at markets.  Do you want that on your conscience???  I would not.



Also if someone is a member here from that yard and they have been posting or owner is  a member and they get a letter from council or authorities they will put two and two together and it might end up that their head is not the only one on the chopping block so think on...............

To add maybe the owner or their family have their horses there and will no afford to move them to a yard so they will be sold too.  There is a lot  a stake if you go through with this vendetta.


----------



## mollymad (18 January 2015)

What else would you call trying to report someone to tax man, trading standards etc. Maybe get rid of the anonymity and ask the question to livery yard owner,


----------



## Tnavas (18 January 2015)

mollymad said:



			What else would you call trying to report someone to tax man, trading standards etc. Maybe get rid of the anonymity and ask the question to livery yard owner,
		
Click to expand...

An honest conscientious British Citizan.

Come on people do you really support dishonesty that actually affects you all.

Tax evasion is illegal. Regardless of whether you think that just because there is a recession in livery businesses it doesn't mean this yard should break the law.

Horse people are notoriously poor business people. Their hearts rule their heads far too often. 

It's a business. If it's finances result in a profit it pays taxes. 

OP If you think this business is evading paying tax, then report them. You can do so anonymously. If they are being honest there is no harm done.

Your complaint may result in the business being audited. If they have nothing to hide all will be fine.


----------



## chocolategirl (18 January 2015)

Honey08 said:



			You're in a different country though.  Not so much here, crappy cheap yards always seem chockablock and nicer yards that cost more turn over more.  I think a lot of people that have horses can't really afford them.
		
Click to expand...

Sadly I think you are correct in this. A lot I know are keeping horses on a shoestring and dread things like farriers and vets visits so unfortunately this is why the cheap crappy yards are in abundance. It really does worry me that if all the yards that aren't doing everything 'by the book' closed, a huge number of people simply wouldn't be able to afford to keep their horses as the yards left would then be able to put thier prices up to what they actually should be. In some respects this may not be a bad thing, but what would happen to all those horses? I've had horses for 40 years and been on a number of yards in that time, one thing I'm 100% certain of is that NONE of them will have been doing everything by BTB otherwise I and many others couldn't have afforded to be there!. Part of me does think licensing would be a good thing but I suspect as with lots of things, there will be many who still manage to get away with it and the rest of you will pay for it in the long run! I keep mine at home now thank god but would hate to see some of my friends in a position where they are forced to get rid because they can't afford!


----------



## popsdosh (18 January 2015)

Tnavas said:



			An honest conscientious British Citizan.

Come on people do you really support dishonesty that actually affects you all.

Tax evasion is illegal. Regardless of whether you think that just because there is a recession in livery businesses it doesn't mean this yard should break the law.

Horse people are notoriously poor business people. Their hearts rule their heads far too often. 

It's a business. If it's finances result in a profit it pays taxes. 

OP If you think this business is evading paying tax, then report them. You can do so anonymously. If they are being honest there is no harm done.

Your complaint may result in the business being audited. If they have nothing to hide all will be fine.
		
Click to expand...

That is why I put the link up to the reporting page for the OP but I think its an assumption on the OPs part they really havent said why they believe. A business thats trying to avoid tax is highly unlikely to be issuing invoices and then not putting it in the accounts( that would be stupid beyond belief) they tend to try and operate under the radar but we are told they are advertising as well I would be very surprised if there is any issue they have to worry about .
I think most have tried to point out that apart from tax all the rest of the issues are not really of any concern to the OP.


----------



## mollymad (18 January 2015)

popsdosh said:



			That is why I put the link up to the reporting page for the OP but I think its an assumption on the OPs part they really havent said why they believe. A business thats trying to avoid tax is highly unlikely to be issuing invoices and then not putting it in the accounts( that would be stupid beyond belief) they tend to try and operate under the radar but we are told they are advertising as well I would be very surprised if there is any issue they have to worry about .
I think most have tried to point out that apart from tax all the rest of the issues are not really of any concern to the OP.
		
Click to expand...

I think the very fact this person is taking about a licence/trading standards/insurance/and tax, would imply they are out to get someone and not a concerned citizen. Let's hope their own house is in order.


----------



## popsdosh (18 January 2015)

mollymad said:



			I think the very fact this person is taking about a licence/trading standards/insurance/and tax, would imply they are out to get someone and not a concerned citizen. Let's hope their own house is in order.
		
Click to expand...

I do agree but they get upset if you suggest it!


----------



## minesadouble (18 January 2015)

mollymad said:



			I think the very fact this person is taking about a licence/trading standards/insurance/and tax, would imply they are out to get someone and not a concerned citizen. Let's hope their own house is in order.
		
Click to expand...

Me too. They had no idea at the outset of what formalities are required of a livery yard, that says to me they but were looking for ways to 'catch them out' by any means possible. Sounds very much like spite to me.
There's a fine line between a concerned citizen and a troublemaker.


----------



## ILuvCowparsely (18 January 2015)

minesadouble said:



			Me too. They had no idea at the outset of what formalities are required of a livery yard, that says to me they but were looking for ways to 'catch them out' by any means possible. Sounds very much like spite to me.
There's a fine line between a concerned citizen and a troublemaker.
		
Click to expand...

*like* button needed


----------



## milesjess (18 January 2015)

I have the info I need, what will be will be


----------



## AngieandBen (18 January 2015)

What about livery yards charging b&b rates? Now wouldn't that be nice,  say £40 a night per horse I've never understood why the going rate is £25 diy a week, you can't put your dog in kennels for that..........so how come its so cheap to keep a horse at a diy yard?


----------



## ester (18 January 2015)

Because if I got to a b+b I don't expect to change my own bed linen, clean my own bathroom or provide my own breakfast! My yo seems to do ok out of a small diy yard.


----------



## Honey08 (18 January 2015)

AngieandBen said:



			What about livery yards charging b&b rates? Now wouldn't that be nice,  say £40 a night per horse I've never understood why the going rate is £25 diy a week, you can't put your dog in kennels for that..........so how come its so cheap to keep a horse at a diy yard?
		
Click to expand...

Exactly.  If I was to try to make money out of our spare stables I'd be better dividing them up into kennels, with two kennels per stable I could make a heck of a lot more money without half the fuss!


----------



## mollymad (18 January 2015)

Interesting that the avatar photo seems to have disappeared.


----------



## milesjess (18 January 2015)

mollymad said:



			Interesting that the avatar photo seems to have disappeared.
		
Click to expand...

So?


----------



## ILuvCowparsely (18 January 2015)

mollymad said:



			Interesting that the avatar photo seems to have disappeared.
		
Click to expand...


Yes  it has, thing is molly this forum is well known by so many and so many know people in real life and anyone going to receive any formal letters will think of this thread a bit like when they appeal for witnesses to accident  people come out of the woodwork especially if a friend of the person's yard involved  is a member.   Its never good sailing too close to the wind,  I have always been of the opinion that I only care what goes on in my yard.  What goes on in jo blogs yard is NOMB unless welfare, regardless of how they run the yard and what they declare and don't.


    I would never grass on anyone for any other reason than welfare, not only that but if OP does get found out in their area that they reported it  no yard around would want them as a livery for fear of being reported for the tiniest thing.  You make your bed you lie on it and you better hope OP it does not come back and bite you on the 4$$ that is all I have to say.


----------



## milesjess (18 January 2015)

I'm fully aware of this... And at no point have I stated that welfare isn't a factor, there are other angles to it that I am not going in to for a reason. 

I know the risk I take and I will stand by what I do. If there's nothing to wrong on their part of things then there's nothing for them to worry about. 

I am not bitter/ spineless blah blah, if that's what people think then so be it, but you don't know me and you don't fully know what's going on and what the history is surrounding the yard.

I asked for advice, I have had it answered. I haven't broadcasted anything, I haven't created slander and I haven't named or shamed anyone. 

People may not like it and may think I'm been 'nosy' but if I posted this as purely a welfare matter I'd be praised for wanting to report it. 

I changed my avatar photo, so what? If people want to know who I am (that no me already) it's not exactly hard to suss out by my previous posts, so crack on. 

This is ultimately a public forum, were people ask questions that others maybe don't like or it's a sour subject. That's why it's a forum and people are entitled to their own opinions as am I. I haven't been upset (and I'm still not for the record, I am defending my corner), yet other users feel it appropriate to call me spineless and spiteful without having met me? Or know the yard? Or YO? 

Not all livery YO's give a damn like some of the YO's on here, not all of them provide or care about the welfare of the animals on their property. Therefore yeah, I will raise the matter with the right agencies and they can look into it. If there's nothing untoward in their opinion then at lest I haven't sat on my backside and done nothing. 

So thank you to those who have posted, answered my query and although maybe not agreed, remained polite. 

I won't be replying to anymore responses because I have my answer and I'm not getting drawn into an argument and I think I've now said my piece. 

Thank you and take care 

Admin - please can you consider closing this thread, I think my query has been resolved and it's now run it's course, regards.


----------



## mollymad (18 January 2015)

milesjess said:



			I'm fully aware of this... And at no point have I stated that welfare isn't a factor, there are other angles to it that I am not going in to for a reason. 

I know the risk I take and I will stand by what I do. If there's nothing to wrong on their part of things then there's nothing for them to worry about. 

I am not bitter/ spineless blah blah, if that's what people think then so be it, but you don't know me and you don't fully know what's going on and what the history is surrounding the yard.

I asked for advice, I have had it answered. I haven't broadcasted anything, I haven't created slander and I haven't named or shamed anyone. 

People may not like it and may think I'm been 'nosy' but if I posted this as purely a welfare matter I'd be praised for wanting to report it. 

I changed my avatar photo, so what? If people want to know who I am (that no me already) it's not exactly hard to suss out by my previous posts, so crack on. 

This is ultimately a public forum, were people ask questions that others maybe don't like or it's a sour subject. That's why it's a forum and people are entitled to their own opinions as am I. I haven't been upset (and I'm still not for the record, I am defending my corner), yet other users feel it appropriate to call me spineless and spiteful without having met me? Or know the yard? Or YO? 

Not all livery YO's give a damn like some of the YO's on here, not all of them provide or care about the welfare of the animals on their property. Therefore yeah, I will raise the matter with the right agencies and they can look into it. If there's nothing untoward in their opinion then at lest I haven't sat on my backside and done nothing. 

So thank you to those who have posted, answered my query and although maybe not agreed, remained polite. 

I won't be replying to anymore responses because I have my answer and I'm not getting drawn into an argument and I think I've now said my piece. 

Thank you and take care 

Admin - please can you consider closing this thread, I think my query has been resolved and it's now run it's course, regards.
		
Click to expand...

Well if it was welfare....then that wouldn't involve the tax man would it? Seeing as you are grasping at angles to report someone puts an entirely different perspective on things. And lastly the need for anonymity speaks volumes.


----------



## Sussexbythesea (18 January 2015)

Honey08 said:



			You're in a different country though.  Not so much here, crappy cheap yards always seem chockablock and nicer yards that cost more turn over more.  I think a lot of people that have horses can't really afford them.
		
Click to expand...

I'd pay more but paying more doesn't always equal a better yard especially when it comes to horse care or customer service rather than facilities.  By far the worst yard I've been on cost the most and both me and my horse were unhappy there and in fact no-one stays at the yard long once they realise that they have been duped. 

I do think everyone should pay the taxes etc. that they are obliged to pay however I don't think I couldn't be bothered to report anyone as I can see how most can hardly be making anything worthwhile. I've never met a person on benefits either that I envy no matter how much they might be playing the system. Funny how people get het up about benefit fraud but not tax fraud yet all of us who pay taxes subsidise both.


----------



## Tiddlypom (18 January 2015)

There seem to be be some very defensive people on here. If the owners/managers of the yard in question are doing no wrong, then surely they having nothing to fear?

Thanks, OP, for starting a very interesting and revealing thread. I hope that you have the answers you looked for.


----------



## risky business (18 January 2015)

Tiddlypom said:



			There seem to be be some very defensive people on here. If the owners/managers of the yard in question are doing no wrong, then surely they having nothing to fear?

Thanks, OP, for starting a very interesting and revealing thread. I hope that you have the answers you looked for.
		
Click to expand...

I agree, I'm not sure why people are getting so defensive over it.


----------



## Spring Feather (18 January 2015)

risky business said:



			I agree, I'm not sure why people are getting so defensive over it.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe they're the YOs OP is thinking about reporting lol :biggrin3:


----------



## risky business (18 January 2015)

Lol @ spring Feather


----------



## Tiddlypom (18 January 2015)

risky business said:



			Lol @ spring Feather 

Click to expand...

+2!


----------



## minesadouble (18 January 2015)

I remember many years ago my farrier at the time having a tax investigation. He had done nothing wrong but it placed  him and his family under massive stress for quite a period of time.  OP - ask yourself this - if your best friend was the YO would you be following the same course of action? If the answer is no then you are not doing this for the right reasons. 
FWIW most of the YOs in my area are farmers, as are we. All the yard owners are quite close knit and if a livery is a non payer/troublemaker then everyone rings/texts to make sure the other YOs have the heads up in case they are a approached. If you are seen as a troublemaker the same fate could await you.......
PS in case you are wondering our annual tax bill is more than the average UK family earns in a year 
Edited to add - this is the tax bill for the entire business not just the liveries - would hate anyone to read this and think they'll make a million from opening a livery yard because believe me you won't


----------



## Wagtail (18 January 2015)

Well, OP, if there is a welfare issue that puts a completely different light on it.


----------



## Spring Feather (18 January 2015)

Wagtail said:



			Well, OP, if there is a welfare issue that puts a completely different light on it.
		
Click to expand...

How?  What is the tax man going to do to remedy a welfare issue?

(I didn't actually read there was any welfare issue however??)


----------



## Goldenstar (18 January 2015)

Spring Feather said:



			How?  What is the tax man going to do to remedy a welfare issue?

(I didn't actually read there was any welfare issue however??)
		
Click to expand...

Yes last time I looked the IR did not do animal welfare .


----------



## Tnavas (18 January 2015)

popsdosh said:



			That is why I put the link up to the reporting page for the OP but I think its an assumption on the OPs part they really havent said why they believe. A business thats trying to avoid tax is highly unlikely to be issuing invoices and then not putting it in the accounts( that would be stupid beyond belief) they tend to try and operate under the radar but we are told they are advertising as well I would be very surprised if there is any issue they have to worry about .
I think most have tried to point out that apart from tax all the rest of the issues are not really of any concern to the OP.
		
Click to expand...

You would be surprised the lengths people go to to avoid tax!

I prepare GST (VAT for a business here in my town. I have done so for over 10  years. The original owners scraped by financially, their profit margin low. Three years ago the business sold, I still do the accounts for the new owner and what a surprise. This so called low return business is returning massive profits. Maybe five times what the previous owner was returning.

Some businesses will issue invoices to those that have either asked for them or to people they may not know well enough to be able to slip them through the radar.

Why should the OP have to reveal all the gory details to this forum. She asked a question regarding the running of livery yards.

I find it very alarming that you will jump hard on a person for having a horse while on benefit, yet actively approve of someone avoiding paying taxes.

We all suffer when the country is unable to raise the funds to educate the kids, look after the sick or care for the elderly. My English pension is £70 a week, and I paid my taxes, and for several years had a very high paying job. 

As for the insurance - I too would be hoping the business had some form of policy in place - what if the YO's negligent? - the horses get out onto the road, because the YO failed to secure a gate properly? This did happen at the riding school I leased. The owner dropped some garden rubbish in the bonfire paddock and failed to shut the main yard gate. The horses broke through the electric fence and at 3am were all running up and down the main road.

Your horse may be insured for the damage it did but would the OP be insured to replace your horse. A bit like the - If you are shunted into the car in front by the car that drove into the back of your car, you are responsible for the repairs to the car in front of you, not the car driver of the one that hit you.


----------



## ChesnutsRoasting (18 January 2015)

Tiddlypom said:



			There seem to be be some very defensive people on here. If the owners/managers of the yard in question are doing no wrong, then surely they having nothing to fear?

Thanks, OP, for starting a very interesting and revealing thread. I hope that you have the answers you looked for.
		
Click to expand...

Just what I was thinking. Tax evasion, in my mind, is theft. The same as benefit cheats & insurance fraud. Ultimately, it is the honest folk that get screwed over.


----------



## seejay (18 January 2015)

Spring Feather said:



			How?  What is the tax man going to do to remedy a welfare issue?

(I didn't actually read there was any welfare issue however??)
		
Click to expand...

I once came the wrong side of a livery yard and riding school that was abusing horses. Buying them knowing they were for light hacking only and using then in jumping lessons, not calling the vet for sick horses, incompetent instructors putting riders in danger and causing injuries, etc.

I reported them to the Council and to the RSPCA, neither of them thought they could do anything (the yard owner was a terrific actor and could lie for Britain). 

So I checked the tax status and found that the business was registered as not trading. I reported it to the tax office, and the business was shut down and the  yard now runs as diy livery only.

I thought that was a pretty good result.

I am shocked by how many people on this thread are happy with tax evasion by livery suppliers!


----------



## Wagtail (18 January 2015)

Spring Feather said:



			How?  What is the tax man going to do to remedy a welfare issue?

(I didn't actually read there was any welfare issue however??)
		
Click to expand...

No, I was talking about reporting the animal welfare problem, not the tax problem.


----------



## Wagtail (18 January 2015)

ChesnutsRoasting said:



			Just what I was thinking. Tax evasion, in my mind, is theft. The same as benefit cheats & insurance fraud. Ultimately, it is the honest folk that get screwed over.
		
Click to expand...

Unless the livery yard is massive and does full and part livery, then they are probably more likely making a loss. So no tax evasion there. Judging from previous threads, the livery yard in question is pure DIY.

Just done my tax return for this year, and I made £1500 in the whole year. I only do part livery. Obviously, I don't run it to make money


----------



## Goldenstar (18 January 2015)

Wagtail said:



			Unless the livery yard is massive and does full and part livery, then they are probably more likely making a loss. So no tax evasion there. Judging from previous threads, the livery yard in question is pure DIY.

Just done my tax return for this year, and I made £1500 in the whole year. I only do part livery. Obviously, I don't run it to make money 

Click to expand...

I mean this kindly but you are mad .


----------



## ChesnutsRoasting (18 January 2015)

Wagtail said:



			Unless the livery yard is massive and does full and part livery, then they are probably more likely making a loss. So no tax evasion there. Judging from previous threads, the livery yard in question is pure DIY.

Just done my tax return for this year, and I made £1500 in the whole year. I only do part livery. Obviously, I don't run it to make money 

Click to expand...

A livery yard is a business. If it doesn't make a profit thats taxable or acceptable to the Yo then they have a choice - continue to run it for personal reasons, run it at a loss or fold it - Iike many, many other small businesses in this country who do pay their tax & run on the right side of the law.


----------



## seejay (18 January 2015)

A typical diY livery yard around my way has twenty five boxes being rented for thirty five pounds a week, an income of around fifty tlhousand a year not including sales of fodder, bedding, and additional services which add at least another fifty percent if they make their own forage.   Obviously there are costs in maintaining grazing, fences, yards, arenas and stables, but they are way over the tax paying threshold unless they have a very creative accountant. 

I've known of many people earning what appears to be sufficient income to raise families in decent size houses solely from a livery, forage and arena hire business, but it does require a decent number of stables.


----------



## criso (18 January 2015)

seejay said:



			A typical diY livery yard around my way has twenty five boxes being rented for thirty five pounds a week, an income of around fifty tlhousand a year not including sales of fodder, bedding, and additional services which add at least another fifty percent if they make their own forage.   Obviously there are costs in maintaining grazing, fences, yards, arenas and stables, but they are way over the tax paying threshold unless they have a very creative accountant.
		
Click to expand...

Not necessarily. 

Firstly even if there is full occupancy of all the boxes and no liveries are poor payers you are still only at £45500.

If they don't own there is rent, even they do own then are there mortgage payments?

If they are lucky enough to own outright then there are business rates.

And you might be shocked at how much maintaining all the facilities and grazing would cost plus the people to manage it.

Not saying they are losing money but they may be in profit for only a small amount at the end of it.


----------



## honetpot (18 January 2015)

I know of a least three people, one who was close family, who run things at a virtually at a  loss, or run a separate enterprise which they buy equipment for on which they claim tax relief on( I think its capital investment?), and they use this for another use or offset the lossmaking business, which has conveniently bought a smart lorry to carry livestock. against other income and capital gains.


----------



## Wagtail (18 January 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			I mean this kindly but you are mad .
		
Click to expand...

Oh yes!  The most I made in a year was £4000. But I love it. It keeps me active, healthy(ish), and my liveries are lovely.


----------



## seejay (18 January 2015)

Are people missing the fact that you pay tax on any income over about ten thousand pounds?  A twent five box livery yard grossing fifty grand would need a good accountant or terrible management not to be evading tax.


----------



## Wagtail (18 January 2015)

seejay said:



			A typical diY livery yard around my way has twenty five boxes being rented for thirty five pounds a week, an income of around fifty tlhousand a year not including sales of fodder, bedding, and additional services which add at least another fifty percent if they make their own forage.   Obviously there are costs in maintaining grazing, fences, yards, arenas and stables, but they are way over the tax paying threshold unless they have a very creative accountant. 

I've known of many people earning what appears to be sufficient income to raise families in decent size houses solely from a livery, forage and arena hire business, but it does require a decent number of stables.
		
Click to expand...

Most DIY yards charge £20 - £25 per box per week. What they charge for hay and haylage etc also does not earn much as it costs a lot to make. Business rates are charged on each and every stable no matter whether it is occupied or not. Just 5 - 8 horses here cost £450 a year in water and then for every livery, there's an owner using stable lights and floodlights and boiling kettles or using hot water. Then there is field maintenance, fertilising, harrowing, weeding, sowing, fence mending. If you have an arena the business rates are between £1 and £2.50 per square metre. If you have a cross country course, that too is rated. My friend had to close her DIY only yard because she was making a loss.


----------



## criso (18 January 2015)

If you want to check out business rates you can do so here.


I checked a couple of local yards,  makes interesting reading and not only stables attract rates but offices, schools, horsewalkers, storage barns, tack rooms etc

http://www.2010.voa.gov.uk/rli/en/basic

Click on find my valuation. put in the postcode for a yard you know

Example 11 boxes, minimal facilities just a school and a little storage £5500


----------



## Cowpony (18 January 2015)

seejay said:



			Are people missing the fact that you pay tax on any income over about ten thousand pounds?  A twent five box livery yard grossing fifty grand would need a good accountant or terrible management not to be evading tax.
		
Click to expand...

Actually if you are running a business this is not true - you don't pay tax on income, but on profits. So with rent, business rates, insurance, costs of feeding, keeping the fields safe and fertilised etc, water, electricity fuel and insurance for a land rover, wages for an employee plus employer`s NIC...plus loads of other things others can probably add, there probably isn't a huge amount of profit. And if it's a husband and wife running it as partners they each have a personal allowance of around £10k before they pay tax.


----------



## Marydoll (18 January 2015)

Its like everything in life, theres good and bad on both sides, something has stirred the op up enough to want to do what she is doing,But some of you are judging her without any idea of what is going on at the yard or why she is doing what shes doing.
Theres been some nasty comments hurled her way for no reason


----------



## honetpot (18 January 2015)

If you do think insurance is unimportant, you have to allow for the unthinkable,
http://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/farmer-in-court-over-driver’s-electrocution.42582/


----------



## mollymad (18 January 2015)

But then it wouldn't be that difficult to ask yard owner if they were insured, and then make a decision as to whether to be a livery on an uninsured yard? I personally think this post highlights what is wrong with the equestrian world.... Lots of talking and whispers behind backs, instead of speaking up or minding your own.


----------



## ChesnutsRoasting (18 January 2015)

mollymad said:



			But then it wouldn't be that difficult to ask yard owner if they were insured, and then make a decision as to whether to be a livery on an uninsured yard? I personally think this post highlights what is wrong with the equestrian world.... Lots of talking and whispers behind backs, instead of speaking up or minding your own.
		
Click to expand...

Speaking up could lead to repercussions depending on the YOs disposition &  minding your own when a person could be breaking the law whilst others do the right thing is why this country is going to the dogs.


----------



## hertsrider (18 January 2015)

ChesnutsRoasting said:



			Speaking up could lead to repercussions depending on the YOs disposition &  minding your own when a person could be breaking the law whilst others do the right thing is why this country is going to the dogs.[/

And if the YO is doing nothing wrong, then it is ok to cause them unnecessary stress.   I dont think our country is going to the dogs because a livery owner may or may not be paying tax, may or may not be insured.
		
Click to expand...


----------



## Spring Feather (18 January 2015)

I can't see the big deal per se of having a company audited.  It's fairly normal over here to be tax audited every few years and 'it ain't no big thing', however it is a waste of tax payers money actually *sending* them to a business when the accuser actually has no knowledge whatsoever of the business owners situation or tax liabilities.


----------



## Ricotta (18 January 2015)

honetpot said:



			If you do think insurance is unimportant, you have to allow for the unthinkable,
http://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/farmer-in-court-over-driver’s-electrocution.42582/

Click to expand...

Insurance will not cover anyone for fines following a criminal prosecution.  Insurance kicks in if any dependants claim compensation.


----------



## popsdosh (18 January 2015)

Tnavas said:



			I find it very alarming that you will jump hard on a person for having a horse while on benefit, yet actively approve of someone avoiding paying taxes.
		
Click to expand...

If you are accusing me of saying that Please FGS read my bloody post! I actually put up the link for the OP to report the issue to HMRC.
Perhaps you would like to retract that statement or dont quote me in future.

As for the insurance just because they dont have insurance it does not change their liability if there is an issue! It just means they risk losing everything if things do go wrong. Its a businesses choice if its not mandatory. As others have pointed out maybe liveries should take a bit more responsility themselves and not use yards that dont have adequate cover because ultimately if its their horse that gets out and causes an accident its them im going for not the yard owner!
We all know though 80% of liveries today are going to the cheapest yard and that may be because they cut corners now is that the provider of liveries fault or the owner going there !


----------



## ChesnutsRoasting (18 January 2015)

hertsrider said:





ChesnutsRoasting said:



			Speaking up could lead to repercussions depending on the YOs disposition &  minding your own when a person could be breaking the law whilst others do the right thing is why this country is going to the dogs.[/

And if the YO is doing nothing wrong, then it is ok to cause them unnecessary stress.   I dont think our country is going to the dogs because a livery owner may or may not be paying tax, may or may not be insured.
		
Click to expand...

If the YO is abiding by the law, then they should have nothing to fear.  One livery owner not paying their taxes will not make a dent in this countries GDP but a hundred livery owners? A hundred shop owners, a hundred house clearance firms, a hundred plumbers - I could go on. Turning a blind eye to dishonest businesses or benefit cheats or fraudulent insurance claims results in this country's honest taxpayers paying more.
		
Click to expand...


----------



## popsdosh (18 January 2015)

honetpot said:



			I know of a least three people, one who was close family, who run things at a virtually at a  loss, or run a separate enterprise which they buy equipment for on which they claim tax relief on( I think its capital investment?), and they use this for another use or offset the lossmaking business, which has conveniently bought a smart lorry to carry livestock. against other income and capital gains.
		
Click to expand...

You cannot offset a lose making business they are taxed as seperate entities.  Or should I say the loses from one business cannot be offset against another when calculating tax liability .


----------



## popsdosh (18 January 2015)

criso said:



			If you want to check out business rates you can do so here.


I checked a couple of local yards,  makes interesting reading and not only stables attract rates but offices, schools, horsewalkers, storage barns, tack rooms etc

http://www.2010.voa.gov.uk/rli/en/basic

Click on find my valuation. put in the postcode for a yard you know

Example 11 boxes, minimal facilities just a school and a little storage £5500
		
Click to expand...

The interesting thing is that business would have no business tax to pay due to the small business rebate. up 6K and then a sliding scale up to 12K


----------



## Cowpony (18 January 2015)

popsdosh said:



			You cannot offset a lose making business they are taxed as seperate entities.  Or should I say the loses from one business cannot be offset against another when calculating tax liability .
		
Click to expand...

Actually you can in certain circumstances. That is why HMRC will look carefully if you keep making losses, and will classify your business as a hobby if you never make a profit. There are lots of exemptions and offsets available if you meet the requirements, but you have to meet them exactly.


----------



## popsdosh (18 January 2015)

Cowpony said:



			Actually you can in certain circumstances. That is why HMRC will look carefully if you keep making losses, and will classify your business as a hobby if you never make a profit. There are lots of exemptions and offsets available if you meet the requirements, but you have to meet them exactly.
		
Click to expand...

You can spread your personal allowance between several businesses but you cannot under any circumstances I have ever come across offset the profits of one seperate business with the loses from another. If you could I would as my competing horses would be a seperate business


----------



## criso (18 January 2015)

popsdosh said:



			The interesting thing is that business would have no business tax to pay due to the small business rebate. up 6K and then a sliding scale up to 12K
		
Click to expand...

Actually the example is much more complex as there is a second livery yard, a farm and some other businesses on the property.

It was just to give an idea of scale.  

Slightly off topic, but does that mean that people who are currently having problems with private stables classed as non domestic as they are too far from the house have nothing to worry about as they will qualify for a rebate anyway.


----------



## popsdosh (18 January 2015)

Yep thats correct!
Also the other businesses if they are seperate businesses will get their own BR relief as each business is liable for their own BRs . The farm will have none as they are totally exempt from business rates


----------



## Cowpony (18 January 2015)

popsdosh said:



			You can spread your personal allowance between several businesses but you cannot under any circumstances I have ever come across offset the profits of one seperate business with the loses from another. If you could I would as my competing horses would be a seperate business
		
Click to expand...

If you make a loss on an unincorporated business you can offset it against other income if you meet all the requirements. If you make a loss on an incorporated business you can only offset any losses against against another company in the same group. Tax is a very complicated thing ( I have spent 30 years doing it and I still don't know anything approaching all of it!) so it is difficult to comment without knowing the specifics.


----------



## criso (18 January 2015)

popsdosh said:



			Yep thats correct!
 The farm will have none as they are totally exempt from business rates
		
Click to expand...

It's complex, yes you have a farm but if there is also a livery business on the farm plus other industries in farm buildings it gets tricky

And presumably there are rules in place to prevent people arbitrarily splitting a business into 3 to avoid rates.

When I was a kid, I remember the guy who owned the yard where I kept my ponies introduced a few calves, chickens (many) and some pigs on site to classify it as a farm but he got caught out and it was classed a livery yard.  We were quite relieved when they went as the chickens were a real pain, completely free range and all descended if you tried to feed your horse to steal it.


----------



## chocolategirl (18 January 2015)

criso said:



			Not necessarily. 

Firstly even if there is full occupancy of all the boxes and no liveries are poor payers you are still only at £45500.

If they don't own there is rent, even they do own then are there mortgage payments?

If they are lucky enough to own outright then there are business rates.

And you might be shocked at how much maintaining all the facilities and grazing would cost plus the people to manage it.

Not saying they are losing money but they may be in profit for only a small amount at the end of it.
		
Click to expand...

This is the reality for a huge number of yards particularly DIY yards. It's a lifestyle choice for a lot of YO"s and believe you me, if all of them were to close because they make little or no profit, wow, where on earth would you all go??!! Wake up and smell the coffee please!!


----------



## popsdosh (18 January 2015)

criso said:



			It's complex, yes you have a farm but if there is also a livery business on the farm plus other industries in farm buildings it gets tricky

And presumably there are rules in place to prevent people arbitrarily splitting a business into 3 to avoid rates.

When I was a kid, I remember the guy who owned the yard where I kept my ponies introduced a few calves, chickens (many) and some pigs on site to classify it as a farm but he got caught out and it was classed a livery yard.  We were quite relieved when they went as the chickens were a real pain, completely free range and all descended if you tried to feed your horse to steal it.
		
Click to expand...

Its not that complex they will work out BRs on the buildings that are used outside agriculture and then charge accordingly for example if the livery is part of the farm they would be liable for BRs on those buildings used as part of the livery. Other businesses would be responsible for Brs in the buildings they occupy.


----------



## Tnavas (19 January 2015)

criso said:



			Not necessarily. 

Firstly even if there is full occupancy of all the boxes and no liveries are poor payers you are still only at £45500.

If they don't own there is rent, even they do own then are there mortgage payments?

If they are lucky enough to own outright then there are business rates.

And you might be shocked at how much maintaining all the facilities and grazing would cost plus the people to manage it.

Not saying they are losing money but they may be in profit for only a small amount at the end of it.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry but you obviously don't understand how certain aspects of accounting work - firstly you can only claim the interest expense on a mortgage as tax deductible - the mortgage repayment itself is not considered an expense.


----------



## Tnavas (19 January 2015)

popsdosh said:



			If you are accusing me of saying that Please FGS read my bloody post! I actually put up the link for the OP to report the issue to HMRC.
Perhaps you would like to retract that statement or dont quote me in future.

As for the insurance just because they dont have insurance it does not change their liability if there is an issue! It just means they risk losing everything if things do go wrong. Its a businesses choice if its not mandatory. As others have pointed out maybe liveries should take a bit more responsility themselves and not use yards that dont have adequate cover because ultimately if its their horse that gets out and causes an accident its them im going for not the yard owner!
We all know though 80% of liveries today are going to the cheapest yard and that may be because they cut corners now is that the provider of liveries fault or the owner going there !
		
Click to expand...

Hi popsdosh - Sorry for the misunderstanding - the problem with forum posting - I wasn't refering to you personally, but to the folks that some time ago were so up in arms because some people were able to keep their horse while on the dole. They thought it was appalling yet here they are actually supporting tax avoidance.


----------



## Tnavas (19 January 2015)

popsdosh said:



			You cannot offset a lose making business they are taxed as seperate entities.  Or should I say the loses from one business cannot be offset against another when calculating tax liability .
		
Click to expand...

This depends if they are a self employed or a company. Companies are taxed separately but if you are self employed you only file one return as it is a personal return. I have three businesses in my return each year.


----------



## hairycob (19 January 2015)

I love the way that people are naïve enough to believe that just because someone is giving invoices out they must be legit because it would be daft to have paperwork if you weren't declaring for tax. Let me give you a real life example:
Yard I was at for a few months last year - new family turn up, umpteen out of control kids, neither parent "work". The 2nd time I meet the dad (on the middle of bathing my horse so no escape) he spent 20 minutes telling me he he hasn't worked for over 8 years due to ill health  - bad back.  But he's not lazy, oh no, he will do any cash in hand work he can get - gardening, fencing, labouring, patios, block paving etc & usually he manages to get work at 3/4 days per week. He told me that 2-3 times a year someone (jealous ******* was his phrase) will report him to benefits people but they always manage to convince them that it's malicious. He gives receipts & invoices if asked for & it's ripping off two ways by not being declared to tax or benefits. He makes them out in a company name. The company doesn't exist. God knows he gets away with it, but he does. Wife was quite open about it as well. Flipping galling when he keeps saying - earned £300 this week laying a patio or whatever when you are trying to get ready to ride after a hard day at work but we did invent a new game - Daily Mail bingo!


----------



## popsdosh (19 January 2015)

hairycob said:



			I love the way that people are naïve enough to believe that just because someone is giving invoices out they must be legit because it would be daft to have paperwork if you weren't declaring for tax. Let me give you a real life example:
Yard I was at for a few months last year - new family turn up, umpteen out of control kids, neither parent "work". The 2nd time I meet the dad (on the middle of bathing my horse so no escape) he spent 20 minutes telling me he he hasn't worked for over 8 years due to ill health  - bad back.  But he's not lazy, oh no, he will do any cash in hand work he can get - gardening, fencing, labouring, patios, block paving etc & usually he manages to get work at 3/4 days per week. He told me that 2-3 times a year someone (jealous ******* was his phrase) will report him to benefits people but they always manage to convince them that it's malicious. He gives receipts & invoices if asked for & it's ripping off two ways by not being declared to tax or benefits. He makes them out in a company name. The company doesn't exist. God knows he gets away with it, but he does. Wife was quite open about it as well. Flipping galling when he keeps saying - earned £300 this week laying a patio or whatever when you are trying to get ready to ride after a hard day at work but we did invent a new game - Daily Mail bingo!
		
Click to expand...

I didnt say they must be ! Just stupid and Advertising if they are trying to hide a business !! We all know there are cheats out there in all walks of life but having a livery business is not easy to run under the radar when they come looking unlike your example.


----------



## criso (19 January 2015)

Tnavas said:



			Sorry but you obviously don't understand how certain aspects of accounting work - firstly you can only claim the interest expense on a mortgage as tax deductible - the mortgage repayment itself is not considered an expense.
		
Click to expand...

Actually I am right in the middle of doing my tax return and wfh some of the time and am quite clear on which can be claimed as an allowable business expense.

Repayment of the mortgage may not be an allowable expense for tax purposes but it still needs to be paid and could be the difference on whether the business is viable or not. 

Many people both potential livery managers and owners look at a yard, see x boxes at so much per week and think it's earning a lot of money. It's not the case, as an livery i see people take a yard and realise within a year the figures don't add up. Many don't last more than a year or so.


----------



## Cowpony (19 January 2015)

criso said:



			Actually I am right in the middle of doing my tax return and wfh some of the time and am quite clear on which can be claimed as an allowable business expense.

Repayment of the mortgage may not be an allowable expense for tax purposes but it still needs to be paid and could be the difference on whether the business is viable or not. 

Many people both potential livery managers and owners look at a yard, see x boxes at so much per week and think it's earning a lot of money. It's not the case, as an livery i see people take a yard and realise within a year the figures don't add up. Many don't last more than a year or so.
		
Click to expand...

I think this bit of the thread has gone a bit off track.  A business actually has two types of profit - one for tax purposes, because there are special rules about what you can and can't claim for tax - and an accounting profit, which shows how you have done financially.  Even that doesn't show what you actually have left in the bank at the end of the year, because there are things you can deduct in your accounts which aren't cash (such as depreciation of assets).

We were talking about profits for tax purposes because the OP suggested that the livery yard in question wasn't paying tax, and somebody suggested that the owners must be defrauding HMRC because with revenue of £50K you must pay tax. We were explaining that that wasn't necessarily the case.

But you make a good point Criso, for anybody out there thinking of setting up a yard and thinking of buying.  Mortgage payments will eat very heavily into your cashflow, and you don't get the benefit of deducting the whole payment against your income for tax purposes - it's only the interest that you can deduct.  And also it's only the interest relating to the premises used for the business, so if you have unused outbuildings or a house which you use as your family home only, you can't claim the interest relating to those parts.


----------



## Tnavas (19 January 2015)

Re



criso said:



			Actually I am right in the middle of doing my tax return and wfh some of the time and am quite clear on which can be claimed as an allowable business expense.

Repayment of the mortgage may not be an allowable expense for tax purposes but it still needs to be paid and could be the difference on whether the business is viable or not. 

Many people both potential livery managers and owners look at a yard, see x boxes at so much per week and think it's earning a lot of money. It's not the case, as an livery i see people take a yard and realise within a year the figures don't add up. Many don't last more than a year or so.
		
Click to expand...

Profit for taxation purposes is totally different to whether the business is viable.

If the business is making enough to repay the mortgage and the running expenses then in many ways it's a viable business. Consider how you would be financially if you didn't have that income to pay the mortgage.


----------



## criso (19 January 2015)

Tnavas said:



			Re

Profit for taxation purposes is totally different to whether the business is viable.

If the business is making enough to repay the mortgage and the running expenses then in many ways it's a viable business. Consider how you would be financially if you didn't have that income to pay the mortgage.
		
Click to expand...

I think I agreed that mortgage repayments were not an allowable business expense for tax purposes, though interest is.


However it can be a big part of your costs.  If you didn't need the premises for the business  you would have a different property and your mortgage would be lower so the two are directly linked. If you don't live on site then it's completely separate to your domestic arrangements. 

People are very quick to look at what is being charged for a service and assume it is all going straight in the owners pocket.  I listed some of the expenses that may be incurred in the course of running a yard that maybe people hadn't considered.   There's lots of info on the govt websites for anyone who needs to check which can set against tax.    I missed some out like electricity and water which wagtail pointed out are quite high.

My post was not intended to be an accounting guide for potential livery managers; it was meant to highlight that there is less money to be made than people assume.


----------



## pixie (19 January 2015)

And this is why all my livery paperwork gets sent to the accountant!


----------



## smellsofhorse (19 January 2015)

Theocat said:



			Just because the yard almost certainly doesn't owe tax, it doesn't mean they shouldn't declare income. If they don't owe anything they won't be charged - but it's up to HMRC to make that decision, not the individual because they CBA filling out a few forms... 

The morality of reporting is a different issue - but on the basis that someone bending rules probably bends them elsewhere (like liability insurance) then it does make it a bit more important.
		
Click to expand...

I agree with this.
Just because they "probably" don't earn enough to pay tax doesn't  mean they shouldn't declare their earnings.

Everyone should declare everything and the appropriate authorities will decide what they do and don't owe.


----------



## ILuvCowparsely (23 January 2015)

I wonder how many people here  who are pro reporting this yard, avoid paying VAT sometimes  when face with a job needed doing to house - car - horsebox - muckhill removal -  large waste removal, would pay cash so get their job for cheaper when asked by a tradesman that you will have that knocked off the bill for cash payments, or paying for a new saddle - new roof on the stables etc.   Most wont admit they have paid cash in the past or will in the future to omit paying VAT!! Or when on holiday try bringing some booze/fags in their cases to avoid tax!!


----------



## ester (23 January 2015)

I will try and pay cash - but only because I know it is a pita to get to a bank when it is open . Never had anything knocked off though .


----------



## Tnavas (23 January 2015)

HGA-12 said:



			I wonder how many people here  who are pro reporting this yard, avoid paying VAT sometimes  when face with a job needed doing to house - car - horsebox - muckhill removal -  large waste removal, would pay cash so get their job for cheaper when asked by a tradesman that you will have that knocked off the bill for cash payments, or paying for a new saddle - new roof on the stables etc.   Most wont admit they have paid cash in the past or will in the future to omit paying VAT!! Or when on holiday try bringing some booze/fags in their cases to avoid tax!!
		
Click to expand...

Not me - I may pay cash but don't ask if there is no GST (VAT). I always ask for an Invoice/Receipt if the work being done may be considered part claimable. 

Not all traders who accept cash are up to mischief!


----------

