# IFOR WILLIAMS NEW 511 SNAKING



## amarat (19 September 2012)

Has anyone had snaking issues with the new HB511?
Brand new trailer,less than a week old, 2nd time out with horse and the 1st time on a dual carrigeway, perfect conditions, straight road, probably traveling at 50 - 55 mph and the trailer started to snake for no apparent reason. I was unable to stop the snaking, it got very violent very quickly and I lost control of the car. Trailer went over on its side, car facing wrong way up dual carrigeway. Fire brigade, animal rescue team were brilliant - had to cut roof off trailer to get horse out - amazingly my precious horse came away with just a few cuts and thank god no one else got caught up in the accident. I have been driving horse trailers for 23 years - had one or two instances of  snaking if big lorries have passed me on motorways but always managed to gently accelerate out. Had towed an equitrek for 3 years and before that an ifor 505 with the same car, a Kia Sorrento with no issues. I will never drive  a trailer again now!


----------



## Dubsie (19 September 2012)

Are you sure it wasn't some other issue - wind, flat tyre, horse misbehaving, road surface esp if has lorry tracks, too fast, too fast downhill etc?  We've several IW trailers of differing types of the years including horsebox trailers and although not a new 511 we've always found they tow beautifully.

Am sure ROG will be on to ascertain you're not overloaded and have the correct laden weight etc for your car, but  I'd assume the HB511 is heavier than the 505?


----------



## ROG (19 September 2012)

If you believe it was the trailer and from your account it does seem so then Ifor Williams are likely to be interested so why not call them and get their response?
01490 412527 - ask for customer care


----------



## Tinsel Trouble (19 September 2012)

I think Ifor Williams should be your first port of call. If you've not spoken to them and had their response then it doesn't seem fair to spread this on a forum (not meaning to be rude btw).

Hope your horse is ok.


----------



## galaxy (19 September 2012)

How scary!  I hope you are ok?

I would also contact IW but get an INDEPENDENT mechanical inspection of it.

Unless on minor B roads I always use an anti-snake bar.  For £100 the reassurance and stability is well worth it.  They are common-place with caravans, really don't know why they are not with horse trailers.


----------



## Honey08 (19 September 2012)

I hope that you and your horse are ok.  I'm sure you're both very traumatised.  I had a trailer do that on a motorway years ago (not a horse trailer thank god) and it scared me to death.  I was driving it too fast though.  

Agree that the best way forward is via Ifor, and hope you can sort something out.  I'm sure the police will be able to work out speeds etc.  Best not to discuss it too much on here probably if likely to go down legal routes.  Just wanted to say I know how you're feeling, and hope you're ok.


----------



## Kat (19 September 2012)

Contrary to the advice above I would suggest you speak to your insurers first. You will most likely be entitled to free legal representation via your car insurance and that should be your first port of call. If there is a fault with the trailer then you (and your insurers)may have a claim against the manufacturer or dealer and speaking to them yourself without advise could cause problems with this potential claim and could even invalidate your insurance. Tell your insurers that you believe that the trailer was at fault and ask them if you can speak to their claims people.


----------



## ROG (19 September 2012)

Is it possible that the trailer wobbled a little and then the horse got agitated and made it worse?


----------



## FfionWinnie (19 September 2012)

Tow bar height was it correct for trailer, tyre pressures were they correct. Wheel nuts were they tight, did you check before you set off. 

What vehicle were you towing with, who was in it etc. 

Horrible experience for you, hope you and the horse were ok.


----------



## dixie (19 September 2012)

galaxy said:



			How scary!  I hope you are ok?

I would also contact IW but get an INDEPENDENT mechanical inspection of it.

Unless on minor B roads I always use an anti-snake bar.  For £100 the reassurance and stability is well worth it.  They are common-place with caravans, really don't know why they are not with horse trailers.
		
Click to expand...

To hi-jack the post - Galaxy where did you get your anti snake bar for £100 - the ones I've seen are way higher than that.


----------



## Cuffey (19 September 2012)

Horrible experience
As above--tyre pressures etc but add nose weight--did you have anything extra in front part of trailer

I have never had an accident with a trailer but some uncomfortable moments
1 Being ''sucked'' by long heavy lorry overtaking very close
2 Having too much nose weight--carrying 2 barrels of water to drink and wash down after event in the nose
3 Very ''solid'' highland pony rubbing on back bar set up a 'rocking motion'


----------



## Flashpaddler (19 September 2012)

I notice you say that you were "probably" travelling at 50-55mph.  From this, it has to be assumed you were unsure of your speed.  Perhaps you were going a bit faster than you thought (we've all done it!)  Personally, I try and make 50mph my absolute max when towing animals and use the cruise control, but sometimes it still creeps up.

Nevertheless, be very careful how you word any claim.  Insurance companies will do everything in their power to avoid paying out.  Don't inadvertently give them an option.


----------



## ladyt25 (19 September 2012)

How terrifying for you - my sister was involved in much the same accident a few years back when they were towing two horses. Thankfully somehow everyone, including horses escaped unscathed.

I won't tow a trailer or put my horse in one quite frankly, I stick to wagons!

I am guessing if you're been towing trailers for that long then the vehicle you're towing with is suitable? Is the 511 particularly light - could this have made it worse? I have no ideas really to help. I think i was the lorry ruts in the road (M1) that caused the problem where my sister's accident was concerned. In my mind I have heard of too many of these accidents first hand from people I know, it totally puts me off trailers


----------



## ladyt25 (19 September 2012)

Flashpaddler said:



			I notice you say that you were "probably" travelling at 50-55mph.  From this, it has to be assumed you were unsure of your speed.  Perhaps you were going a bit faster than you thought (we've all done it!)  Personally, I try and make 50mph my absolute max when towing animals and use the cruise control, but sometimes it still creeps up.

Nevertheless, be very careful how you word any claim.  Insurance companies will do everything in their power to avoid paying out.  Don't inadvertently give them an option.
		
Click to expand...

Personally I don't think this is a huge issue - presumably the police were at the scene and will have investigated anyway. I don't see why the insurance would not pay out. It' an accident after all.


----------



## Flashpaddler (19 September 2012)

ladyt25 said:



			Personally I don't think this is a huge issue - presumably the police were at the scene and will have investigated anyway. I don't see why the insurance would not pay out. It' an accident after all.
		
Click to expand...

You've clearly not had recent dealings with an insurance company!!!


----------



## galaxy (19 September 2012)

Dixie- they may be slightly more now as I've had mine 6/7 years. It's a bulldog one. A client of mine got theirs off eBay this summer. They didn't say paid that much more....


----------



## ladyt25 (19 September 2012)

Deleted


----------



## ladyt25 (19 September 2012)

Flashpaddler said:



			You've clearly not had recent dealings with an insurance company!!!
		
Click to expand...

Nope, not recently myself but I do work for one and have worked in insurance almost 10 years!


----------



## WelshD (19 September 2012)

It depends on whose insurance you plan to claim on, if it's yours then there would probably be no problem. If you plan to put in a claim to IW then I'd expect them to fight it if evidence doesn't point to the trailer


----------



## welshcobmad (19 September 2012)

I've had a brand new 511 on hire all summer & I only passed my trailer test in June so fairly new to the game, I've found it absolutely fantastic towing all sorts of combinations from 2 heavy cobs, 2 light youngsters, 1 heavy hunter alone etc etc & not once has it faltered or so much as swayed despite whats overtaken me, what type of road I'm on or speed. Its filled me with confidence that its 100% safe so I can only assume if it is the trailer its a fault somewhere or maybe the tyres? What an awful experience for you!


----------



## scarymare (19 September 2012)

It's the height of your towbar.

If your towbar is too low (I bet its on the lower of the two settings) it is basically pushing the trailer down and decreasing the stability.  Stabalisers will not help.  Go out and check it and I'll bet you'll find I'm right.

Only reason I'm so sure is that happened to me with a 510 who I took into dealers and they ended up repositioning bar to upper fixing and was then fine.  Good luck!


----------



## Maesfen (19 September 2012)

Too fast to tow a trailer, especially a horse trailer because it's a living load that can move unlike a load of furniture; sorry and glad you're both ok.


----------



## Always Henesy (19 September 2012)

OP - was it the Crowborough rescue unit that came out to you? If yes then I saw your accident. 
I have 2 year old Ifor HB511 and we had snaking issues with it when we first used it. The tow bar height was incorrect for the trailer. We had it adjusted and have had no problems since.
But - depending on the weight of the horse you can still get snaking. I never go over 40mph when towing with my big lad. With my daughters 14.3 pony we had a limit of 50mph.
When you experienced the snaking, did you brake the car or just take your foot off the accelerator?

I am so sorry for your truly horrendous experience. If it was you on the main A road in Kent then please do get in touch. I am also delighted that your horse came away with just bruises.


----------



## amarat (19 September 2012)

No it was on the top setting!


----------



## Bosworth (19 September 2012)

which Sorrento were you towing with? Some only have a towing capacity of 1600, so the weight of the 511 is 1000 so only 600 to have as horse weight which is only the weight of a middleweight hunter or 2 ponies. And that is at its maximum capacity. if you were above maximum capacity then there may be a problem with the insurance.  Also then you are at risk of course if the horse moves around. Were you braking, or suddenly coming into a piece of road that was open on both sides so you got the wind blowing across destabilising the trailer. how did you react when it started to snake? did you drive forwards, or brake?


----------



## FfionWinnie (19 September 2012)

amarat said:



			No it was on the top setting!
		
Click to expand...

That doesn't mean it was the right height for the trailer. Did you park the trailer and car on level ground and assess whether it was correctly aligned?

I have an adjustable tow bar because a standard one did not adjust enough for the Landrover. It is amazing how much adjustment can be needed to get it correct. 

I disagree that 50-55 mph made it happen alone incidentally. If everything is set up correctly and the road conditions/limits allow then a trailer should be perfectly safe travelling at 55mph.


----------



## Clodagh (19 September 2012)

I thought the max legal speed for a trailer was 50mph? Could be wrong, but I wouldn't go more than that.
Siorry to hear about your acident and I'm glad your horse and you are OK.


----------



## LowenKi (19 September 2012)

So sorry to hear about your accident, this must have been a horribly terrifying ordeal. My husband is an engineer and has spent his entire life towing various things with various vehicles. He has always told me that snaking is a result of incorrect tyre pressures, an uneven brake wear, the incorrect height of the towball or simply that the trailer is too heavy for the car. I'd get all these checked first of all before you try to make your insurance claim if I was you, just so you don't waste your time doing all the paperwork. Unfortunately, it does sound unlikely that IW would sell a faulty brand new trailer, so I'd do all the homework you can before you call them so that you can answer their questions accurately. They could record the telephone conversation and pull you up on inaccuracies at a later date if it meant they could dodge your insurance claim! I'd be hopeful that your insurance company wouldn't refuse the claim though? Let us know how it progresses, best of luck it must be a very stressful time.


----------



## vickyb (19 September 2012)

I can quite understand your reluctance to use a trailer again OP. I had this happen to me with an empty bullock trailer traveling at less than 30 mph. My boss was following me in another vehicle and he thought what started the snake was the offside trailer wheels hitting a large pothole, we could not see any other reason for it. Accelerating out of it ( if that can actually be done, or is it folklore?) was not an option and I jack-knifed. It was terrifying and I just missed a telegraph pole and a pedestrian. Car was badly damaged, trailer okay. 
Hope you recover from your shock soon OP.


----------



## FfionWinnie (19 September 2012)

Clodagh said:



			I thought the max legal speed for a trailer was 50mph? Could be wrong, but I wouldn't go more than that.
Siorry to hear about your acident and I'm glad your horse and you are OK.
		
Click to expand...

No on a motorway or dual carriageway (70 mph) the trailer speed limit is 60mph. 

My point was the trailer should not over turn at 55 mph for no reason. (it could over turn at just about any speed if the speed was wrong for the conditions).


----------



## FfionWinnie (19 September 2012)

You should slow down not speed up and you should do it very gradually.


----------



## mcnaughty (19 September 2012)

Personally think you were going too fast.  Trailer limit may be 60mph but that is not necessarily carrying a live load.


----------



## DragonSlayer (19 September 2012)

scarymare said:



			It's the height of your towbar.

If your towbar is too low (I bet its on the lower of the two settings) it is basically pushing the trailer down and decreasing the stability.  Stabalisers will not help.  Go out and check it and I'll bet you'll find I'm right.

Only reason I'm so sure is that happened to me with a 510 who I took into dealers and they ended up repositioning bar to upper fixing and was then fine.  Good luck!
		
Click to expand...

THIS^^^^

We had to put a drop plate on all our 4x4's because the tow bar was far too high. This tends to be an area that many people overlook.


----------



## Bosworth (19 September 2012)

i do not consider 55mph to be too fast with horses, if the road is good, if there are no bends then there is no reason whatsoever that you cannot drive at the speedlimit of 60. I have driven miles and miles towing a 510 trailer, but my towing capacity was 3500. and I never towed anything more than 2500. I never experienced snaking with that trailer 4x4 combination. I suspect the car is not really man enough for the weight of the trailer which is why it snaked.


----------



## Black_Horse_White (19 September 2012)

I don't know what year your Sorento is but mines an 08 manual and has a towing capacity of 3000kg. So should think it's down to the towing vehicle.


----------



## Black_Horse_White (19 September 2012)

Mean't "not" down to the towing vehicle.


----------



## eggs (19 September 2012)

What side of the trailer was your horse loaded on? I only ask because I believe that due to the weight of the side ramp on the Equitreks you load a single horse on the opposite side to other trailers.


----------



## Always Henesy (19 September 2012)

I would just like to say that 50-55mph on this particular dual carriageway on a still and hot sunny day was not excessive (although I never go over 50mph myself)
The car/trailer combination was well within limits (I saw it) and only one horse on board.

I would again like to stress that in this case it was probably due to the height of the tow bar or tyre pressure and not the IW itself.
The OP says the tow ball was at the highest level but you MUST get the trailer/car combination aligned properly by a trailer specialist as they are all different.

I was also told not to accelerate when a trailer snakes, but in fact to slow down and apply brakes slowly.


----------



## Maesfen (19 September 2012)

mcnaughty said:



			Personally think you were going too fast.  Trailer limit may be 60mph but that is not necessarily carrying a live load.
		
Click to expand...

Thank goodness for a bit of sense. 

The force from a horse in a trailer when braking or swerving suddenly is unbelievably strong and can push you completely out of kilter with little warning; (when an accident happens it happens very suddenly, you don't get long range warnings very often so that you can slow down gradually) so it makes safety sense to travel within a safe margin unless you're happy to throw your horse off its feet and possibly through the front of the trailer if you have to brake suddenly because they don't have the benefit of seeing (and knowing what they're seeing) what's coming so being able to brace themselves against impact.


----------



## NeverSayNever (19 September 2012)

i feel a bit sorry for the OP, there seems to be a lot of implication it was her fault and really, well, there but for the grace of God we all go as you never know what can happen every time you go out on the roads. Im quite happy doing 60mph with my horse on board on a straight section of dual carriageway in good conditions. Im so glad you werent hurt OP.


Can I ask about this towbar height thing   Are you talking about the hitch on the trailer as to me &#8216;towbar&#8217; is what is on your vehicle and the towbar on my vehicle is certainly not adustable   I have a 505 and I cant say Ive ever noticed the hitch on the trailer is adjustable either


----------



## rockysmum (19 September 2012)

NeverSayNever said:



			iCan I ask about this towbar height thing   Are you talking about the hitch on the trailer as to me towbar is what is on your vehicle and the towbar on my vehicle is certainly not adustable   I have a 505 and I cant say Ive ever noticed the hitch on the trailer is adjustable either 

Click to expand...

You dont alter the trailer, its the vehicle towbar.

My Landy has one that you can alter very easily, but they were designed to tow anything  

A lot of towbars have a plate which can be altered.  Usually by a garage as you have to undo bolts and sometimes add plates.  Also need special high tensile bolts.


----------



## NeverSayNever (19 September 2012)

rockysmum said:



			You dont alter the trailer, its the vehicle towbar.

My Landy has one that you can alter very easily, but they were designed to tow anything  

A lot of towbars have a plate which can be altered.  Usually by a garage as you have to undo bolts and sometimes add plates.  Also need special high tensile bolts.
		
Click to expand...

ah ok! Thanks for explaining.Mine isnt like that but Ive learned something I i didnt know before. Sorry to hyjack OP


----------



## Bosworth (19 September 2012)

Some Kia sorentos are too small to tow the possible weight, although they would look fine they are not actually man enough to meet the 85 percent recommendation. Have a look at this link. it explains that although the vehicle may have a towing capacity of a certain amount, is should not actually be used to tow that amount. http://www.uktow.com/towing capacity.asp#tab1


----------



## NeverSayNever (19 September 2012)

the 85% thing was a guideline from the caravan club for towing unbraked trailers. im sure the same doesnt apply to a braked twin axel horse trailer.


----------



## rockysmum (19 September 2012)

I have to say I cringe when I read the towing clinic on here.

Yes some of the combinations might be just legal.  But who on earth wants to put their precious horses in something which is "just legal"

My Landy will tow up to 3.5 tonnes apparently.  My trailer has a max of 2.7 tonnes.  I seriously doubt if I have come anywhere near that with two of mine in.  But its enough, I really really would not want to tow 3.5 tonnes, legal or not.  I am sure I usually have at least a tonne in reserve.

No idea whether that was the cause of the snaking, it could have been one or several of the ideas on here.  

Just had to say this.


----------



## Mike007 (19 September 2012)

Snaking is a common and natural phenomenon for all trailers. Usualy the cause of it becoming a problem is the towing vehicle and hitch height. Trailers snake,Towing vehicles absorb and damp out the snake. Everyone who cares about their horses should fit an anti snake device.Cheap and effective.


----------



## Bosworth (19 September 2012)

caravans are not unbraked, they are all braked, the 85% allows for safe towing, not maximum towing. No horse trailer / vehicle combination should come near that ratio for safetys sake. A horse trailer is far more dangerous than a caravan as it has a live moveable cargo which can totally unbalance the trailer


----------



## Goldenstar (19 September 2012)

This happened to me towing my carriage / stabling trailer its a terrifying experiance in my case itwas hot ruts in road caused by HG's caused the snake to start one of the tyres came off and went up the axles .
I will never ever forget the scream of noise as the trailer flung my range rover though 180 degrees and tipped it on its side it seemed to go for ever time slowed.
OP I am towing again it took a while  you and your pony are so lucky hope you feel better soon.


----------



## perfect11s (19 September 2012)

these little trailers are Not a very good idea from a enginering point of view due to the large distance between the tow car axle and trailer coulpling and  if things are wrong as others have said like tyre presures or the tow bar on the car is a little low  or the trailer is loaded wrong its a recipe for problems this is most likely cause of snaking, the other possibility is the trailer axle had moved because of a previous acident like clipping a curb or it was loose and moved on the road spring..


----------



## Goldenstar (19 September 2012)

perfect11s said:



			these little trailers are Not a very good idea from a enginering point of view due to the large distance between the tow car axle and trailer coulpling and  if things are wrong as others have said like tyre presures or the tow bar on the car is a little low  or the trailer is loaded wrong its a recipe for problems this is most likely cause of snaking, the other possibility is the trailer axle had moved because of a previous acident like clipping a curb or it was loose and moved on the road spring..
		
Click to expand...

A 511 is not small it's designed to take two 17.2's


----------



## perfect11s (19 September 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			A 511 is not small it's designed to take two 17.2's
		
Click to expand...

You miss my point!! they are a small trailer that is towed with a light commecial or car type vehicle..


----------



## millimoo (20 September 2012)

Perfect11s... You've lost me?
We've got a HB511, and have no issues with it snaking, but that's because my mum sticks at 45mph.
Hers is towed with a Discovery 3, not a car type vehicle???
A few years ago, our neighbour was towing our horse and hers on the motorway in a HB510, behind a Discovery 3. She got a wobble, that resulted in the trailer becoming detached, the horses doing 360degree spin, nose to tail, and the vehicle bouncing off the crash barrier on it's roof, landing facing back up the motorway.
In this instance speed was a factor, and just before the wobble started my mum was about to ask her to slow down.
I think the camber and bend on the road, coupled with 2 horses shifting weight set the trailer off, and speed meant it could be controlled, leading to catastrophic consequences. One horse was thrown clear, and my mums horse, who had travelled on the left, ended up wedged in the front.
Thankfully everyone survived, but my mums horse had a wound that took 6 months to close on his stifle, and severe concussion (they hadnt expected him to survive the night due to shock)
OP, I think you have some excellent advise regards tow weights, tow ball height, and tyre pressure, and am so glad for you that you're all ok. Maybe you can get a ln independent inspection of the trailer regards road worthiness, however I'd be amazed if the trailer was at fault.


----------



## millimoo (20 September 2012)

Speed meant it could NOT be controlled - to correct the sentence above


----------



## Goldenstar (20 September 2012)

Not wishing to worry any one but I was going 43 mph when I had my accident.


----------



## amarat (20 September 2012)

Thank you all for your suggestions. Here is some more information which eliminates some of them:

The max towing weight of the Kia Sorrento is 2800kg. The 511 is 1000kg and my horse 600 kg max - So I was well within limits (I towed the equitrek space trekka L which weighs 1250 kg for 3 years with the same car and no problems).

The horse was travelling on the right hand side ie away from the camber of the road.

The maximum towing speed on a national speed limit dual carriage way is 60 mph. Whilst we can all allow our speed to creep up unintentionally, I am 99% sure I was  well within the limit. I have been driving for  30 years and kept a completely clean licence and also hold the advanced driving certificate - so judge for yourselves. I always tow very steadily on minor roads, bends roundabouts etc for the sake of the horse - I have never had a bad loader so I think that speaks for itself. However, on a straight dual carriage way in good conditions (which it was) I have often driven at 55 - 60 mph and never had a problem. 

The tow bar was not altered from the 505 to the equitrek to the 511. It was on the upper setting and measured 18 inches from the ground to the top of the ball without a trailer attached. The trailer had been attached to the car by the ifor dealer when I purchased it. If the tow bar needed lowering,(which would have been the only alternative to the height it was at) I would have thought he would have done it there and then. 

Comments that it is a live load that moves are true but horse trailers are designed to carry a live load. I  had the rather alarming experience a couple of years ago when my much bigger horse decided to  'hunt'  all the way home when he had enjoyed himself rather too much out bloodhounding - That was in the equitrek and it certainly didn't move it.

I am getting the trailer inspected by an independent engineer for my own peace of mind. I will certainly be letting Ifor know if a problem is found. If there was an issue with the trailer, the last thing I want is  for this to happen to any body else


----------



## perfect11s (20 September 2012)

millimoo said:



			Perfect11s... You've lost me?
We've got a HB511, and have no issues with it snaking, but that's because my mum sticks at 45mph.
Hers is towed with a Discovery 3, not a car type vehicle???
A few years ago, our neighbour was towing our horse and hers on the motorway in a HB510, behind a Discovery 3. She got a wobble, that resulted in the trailer becoming detached, the horses doing 360degree spin, nose to tail, and the vehicle bouncing off the crash barrier on it's roof, landing facing back up the motorway.
In this instance speed was a factor, and just before the wobble started my mum was about to ask her to slow down.
I think the camber and bend on the road, coupled with 2 horses shifting weight set the trailer off, and speed meant it could be controlled, leading to catastrophic consequences. One horse was thrown clear, and my mums horse, who had travelled on the left, ended up wedged in the front.
Thankfully everyone survived, but my mums horse had a wound that took 6 months to close on his stifle, and severe concussion (they hadnt expected him to survive the night due to shock)
OP, I think you have some excellent advise regards tow weights, tow ball height, and tyre pressure, and am so glad for you that you're all ok. Maybe you can get a ln independent inspection of the trailer regards road worthiness, however I'd be amazed if the trailer was at fault.
		
Click to expand...

 Sorry what I am trying to say is the way of towing isnt ideal from a technical point of view Ie there is a lot of leaverage and movement because the towing point is a long way behind the rear axle!!!  this makes it unstable and easly affected by mismatched tow bar height,  low tyre presures ,  load in the wrong place , the trailer axle out of line or bent , mecanical issue with the towing vehicle like worn shock absorbers etc or sudden driver stering inputs..  all or a combination of these can cause snakeing and possible loss of control!!   if everything is right then towing at 60 mph or more is possible and safe I would say to anyone if your outfit starts to feel unstable at lower speeds ask questions before there is another nasty  avoidable accident...


----------



## meesha (20 September 2012)

So glad you are all ok, personally I am gobsmacked at people saying you were travelling too fast.  On a motorway I would not dream of travelling under 50 mph (unless conditions dictated) and mostly travel between 50 and 55 sometimes touching 60 on a clear dry stretch of quiet road, on a dual carriageway I would happily do 50+ if conditions permitted.  Doing 40 ish you would be a hazard to other road users and have large lorries constantly overtaking you - please dont take this the wrong way but surely that is more dangerous especially if you are trying to join the motorway doing 30-40 when other vehicles are all doing 60 - 80 mph !!

I hope you manage to get to the bottom of it all and it would be great if you could post what the problem was so we can all be more aware of what to check - I am off to the yard now to check my tow ball height compared to hitch height on trailer !!


----------



## FfionWinnie (20 September 2012)

If you don't feel safe ever travelling more than 40 mph, the set up isn't right almost certainly. 

As this was a new trailer nothing should have been worn. Something must have caused it however.


----------



## Merlin11 (20 September 2012)

We have an ifor510 and hadn't had any problems as we normally drive on small roads at no more than 40mph. However we once went on a dual carriageway and were doing over 50 and the trailer starting snaking. All was ok and we got it back under control but the lesson was don't do more than about 40. Think it may also have been due to tyre pressure which we always check now before a journey. Don't think it is a fault of the trailer - they are just not meant to be driven over 50. If you want to go faster than this I would get a lorry. Hope all is ok. It is a horrible experience.


----------



## perfect11s (20 September 2012)

Merlin11 said:



			We have an ifor510 and hadn't had any problems as we normally drive on small roads at no more than 40mph. However we once went on a dual carriageway and were doing over 50 and the trailer starting snaking. All was ok and we got it back under control but the lesson was don't do more than about 40. Think it may also have been due to tyre pressure which we always check now before a journey. Don't think it is a fault of the trailer - they are just not meant to be driven over 50. If you want to go faster than this I would get a lorry. Hope all is ok. It is a horrible experience.
		
Click to expand...

 Sorry rubbish !!!!!


----------



## Bosworth (20 September 2012)

My trailer and set up were perfectly fine being driven over 40! And to be honest if you are worried about towing over 40 then you need to think about your set up. it is dangerous to travel so slowly, you are putting your self and your horse at risk along with everyone else on the road. You need to make progress, to move towards the speed limit or other road users are forced to go round you putting yourself and them in danger. On a dual carriage way you need to be going at a decent speed or you will cause lorries to swerve round you and the drag from them can cause your trailer to snake. A slower journey can cause your horse far more stress than a faster one, of course that speed has to be within the law, but going slowly does not make for a safer journey. if your set up does not feel safe then you need to look at pulling vehicle, is it underpowered, is trailer over laden or badly weighted, is tow hitch incorrect. Is trailer too light? I had one experience of snaking and that was with a Bateson which always gave the horse a dreadful journey. we thought the horse was a bad traveller but in the Ifor 510 he travelled well. I towed with the same vehicle over the same journey in similar weather conditions, so only difference was the trailer. It just did not hold the road in the same way as the 510, it bounced and lifted at every bump. A very unpleasant trailer to tow.


----------



## ROG (20 September 2012)

Speed alone will not cause a trailer of any kind to wobble - there must be an added factor - that is basic physics


----------



## Maesfen (20 September 2012)

The one thing that amazes me is all these people saying over 50mph is safe for pulling a trailer with horses in are obviously forgetting that it is a live cargo and as such is liable to move in some circumstances which means you have less control of the trailer and vehicle.  By all means go that fast with a load of furniture but not with something that is your pride and joy surely.

As someone else said, if you really must be a speed merchant while carrying a horse - or any large live animal, then the safest way of travel is a lorry, no question about it; you can go as fast as you like then.


----------



## Merlin11 (20 September 2012)

You misunderstood my post. We are keeping to the small roads and driving at this speed is not a problem - going faster on these roads would be even without a trailer. We only do a short journey so no need to go on faster roads. We just tried it once due to road works. There is no problem re weight - we drive a discovery. Will look at the tow bar height as others have suggested though. We have one horse who does not travel well and moves around. Their safety is paramount.


----------



## catembi (20 September 2012)

OMG, so many awful accidents, and from people not doing anything particularly 'wrong'.

I sold my DAF to pay for building work, am now transportless & was planning on buying a trailer in the Spring, but now I just don't know whether I'd be better off with another lorry.  Can't really afford to run one, but OMG, all of these accidents are so terrible.  I'm not sure whether I'd prefer to stay transportless til I can afford another lorry rather than risk having something like this happen.

I have a V6 landcruiser bought with towing in mind, but trailer + 2 horses is a lot of weight (even tho within its capabilities) and I can see how it could all go wrong very, very quickly.

Thank you for your post - I was actually thinking about a 511.  Really hope you're okay.

T x


----------



## FfionWinnie (20 September 2012)

Maesfen said:



			The one thing that amazes me is all these people saying over 50mph is safe for pulling a trailer with horses in are obviously forgetting that it is a live cargo and as such is liable to move in some circumstances which means you have less control of the trailer and vehicle.  By all means go that fast with a load of furniture but not with something that is your pride and joy surely.

As someone else said, if you really must be a speed merchant while carrying a horse - or any large live animal, then the safest way of travel is a lorry, no question about it; you can go as fast as you like then.
		
Click to expand...

No I am not forgetting it is a live cargo and nor am I stupid or irresponsible. I tow live cargo for a living.  My live cargo isn't tied up or unable to turn round either, it's cattle who do not travel as quietly as a horse does! My trailer is not good to tow, I would much rather tow a IW trailer than this one. 

60mph is not a speed merchant in the correct driving conditions. 

A good journey for any animal is smooth speed changes and very smooth gradual braking and cornering. 

Sitting at 40mph on the motorway because your trailer/vehicle combo, tyre pressures and tow bar height makes it  too dangerous to go any faster has the added danger of someone backending you.

Honestly now, who checks their tyre pressures and tyre condition every time they tow?


----------



## Capriole (20 September 2012)

FfionWinnie said:



			Honestly now, who checks their tyre pressures and tyre condition every time they tow?
		
Click to expand...

Yes, we do. Along with all the lights etc.


----------



## peaceandquiet1 (20 September 2012)

Really interesting thread and reassured that you all stick to safe speeds because I get laughed at in our Pony Club because everyone overtakes me on the way to events-but I don't care and I will stick to what I consider to be safe and appropriate. On a motorway I will sit at around 55mph. Sorry about your accident Op, I tow an Ifor 505 and have found it to be very stable, I hope you get to the bottom of what caused it and let us know.


----------



## Lucyad (20 September 2012)

How terrifying - so glad you all came out unscathed.  

We tow a HB510 with a Disco or Range Rover, regularly using dual carriageways and motorways.  I would be very interested to know more about what caused your accident (and others), so we can all take as much care as possible in the future to avoid similar incidents.


----------



## millimoo (20 September 2012)

catembi said:



			OMG, so many awful accidents, and from people not doing anything particularly 'wrong'.

I sold my DAF to pay for building work, am now transportless & was planning on buying a trailer in the Spring, but now I just don't know whether I'd be better off with another lorry.  Can't really afford to run one, but OMG, all of these accidents are so terrible.  I'm not sure whether I'd prefer to stay transportless til I can afford another lorry rather than risk having something like this happen.

I have a V6 landcruiser bought with towing in mind, but trailer + 2 horses is a lot of weight (even tho within its capabilities) and I can see how it could all go wrong very, very quickly.

Thank you for your post - I was actually thinking about a 511.  Really hope you're okay.

T x
		
Click to expand...

Don't be put off... my mum sold her beautiful Coachbuilt Leyland Daf because her current horse would not load, and once in sweated like mad.
She hired a HB511 to see how he travelled / loaded in that, and he was a different horse, so with reluctance sold her lorry... think he was used to forward facing, as came from Holland where travelling by trailer is the norm (in Bockmanns and alike)
She was very nervous about going back to a trailer after the accident, but she's been out more times in the trailer in the last 6 weeks, than she did all year.
However if she was doing a long motorway journey, she says she would hire a lorry.

I think this thread is brilliant though, because i'm sure many don't think about the towbar height and assume it's correct. And if it makes us all a bit more dilligent before we set off, then all the better.

OP - I'm glad you're getting an independant inspection, as a 1 week old trailer should be perfect, and not have any issues at all, and clearly you were well within weights and loaded correctly etc. Hope you get some answers soon


----------



## millimoo (20 September 2012)

perfect11s said:



			Sorry what I am trying to say is the way of towing isnt ideal from a technical point of view Ie there is a lot of leaverage and movement because the towing point is a long way behind the rear axle!!!  this makes it unstable and easly affected by mismatched tow bar height,  low tyre presures ,  load in the wrong place , the trailer axle out of line or bent , mecanical issue with the towing vehicle like worn shock absorbers etc or sudden driver stering inputs..  all or a combination of these can cause snakeing and possible loss of control!!   if everything is right then towing at 60 mph or more is possible and safe I would say to anyone if your outfit starts to feel unstable at lower speeds ask questions before there is another nasty  avoidable accident...
		
Click to expand...

Get you now - that makes perfect sense
Our rig is stable, but from a confidence point of view my mum can't bring herself to drive faster than 45mph (although she did creep up to just under 50mph on a dual carraigeway)
Having been in a horrific accident where speed, and now reading this possibly something else amiss (ie tyre pressure, as an older unchecked 510 - in hindsite), she is likely to remain a steady eddy. Her view is, if you had to break hard at speed, your going to lose it completely


----------



## ROG (20 September 2012)

millimoo said:



			Her view is, if you had to break hard at speed, your going to lose it completely
		
Click to expand...

That is always the case with any type of trailer being towed by any sort of vehicle

There will always be a balance between the time in getting from A to B and what is a safe speed to tow at with the current combination/load

Getting that balance right usually comes with experience


----------



## tallyho! (20 September 2012)

Another factor is towing level. A trailer should be slightly nose down to avoid snaking. Never accelerate out of a snaking trailer/caravan. Always slow down.


----------



## Maesfen (20 September 2012)

FfionWinnie said:



			60mph is not a speed merchant in the correct driving conditions. 

A good journey for any animal is smooth speed changes and very smooth gradual braking and cornering. 

Sitting at 40mph on the motorway because your trailer/vehicle combo, tyre pressures and tow bar height makes it  too dangerous to go any faster has the added danger of someone backending you.

Honestly now, who checks their tyre pressures and tyre condition every time they tow?
		
Click to expand...

Starting from bottom up.  Yes, we do because the trailer isn't used very much! 

I think you have to juggle motorway speed with what you are comfortable with yourself.  If you feel harried if you go faster/are pushed faster by other traffic then you should drive at the speed you feel most comfortable with regarding the conditions and your load.  That advice comes from an advanced police driver; he says it's a load of bull that you should drive faster than you're comfortable with as that's when accidents are more likely to happen.

Absolutely agree that driving horses should be as smooth as milk and gentle.  After all, think about how many turns a roundabout has for them especially when you consider they are almost blindfold, they can only feel the changes of direction.

To me, 60 is a speed merchant, sorry!  Happy to do that on dual carriegeways but not on our local roads thank you very much and that's without a trailer.   We don't all live where straightish main roads or motorways are the norm (thank God); whenever we have to get on one we think they're all idiots and would rather get there in one piece than in an ambulance or worse.  I positively hate motorways unless I'm in a wagon, if in a car I bury myself behind a book until we get off it again and am a shivering wreck the whole way yet would happily drive a wagon on them.


----------



## Suechoccy (20 September 2012)

FfionWinnie said:



			Honestly now, who checks their tyre pressures and tyre condition every time they tow?
		
Click to expand...


yup. every time. car as well as trailer too (505 and a Fourtrak).  

The 5 mins it takes to go round with a tyre pressure gauge and if need be, a footpump, is well worth it for the extra peace-of-mind it gives me before setting off, irrespective of how short or quick the journey is. 

I'm gobsmacked that people would NOT check their tyre pressures before transporting a live load.


----------



## posie_honey (20 September 2012)

what a horrid experience for you. i hope you find a cause of some sort if only to give yourself confidence back for towing again.

i've read the whole of this thread and i must admit the thing i'm most scared of is the people who think that towing at 40 on a motorway or good duel carriageway is acceptable or safe! Or people who 'know' that their trailer snakes over this speed!! 

i'm not advocating doing stupid speeds at all - but honestly - surely that is a really loud warning sign to you that there is something horribly wrong with your set up?!


----------



## welshcobabe (20 September 2012)

Well I have had this happen to me towing and empty 505 with a defender landrover, however it was a blow out on the landrover that caused the problem. I didnt tip over but those driving behind said at one point both landrover and trailer were on two wheels. I turned into it and jackknifed the trailer and came to a standstill on the motorway facing the wrong way. How I didnt hit anything or anything hit me is one of my 9 lives gone. 

I would say that over 55 it too fast with horse on board but that is just me I would not be comfortable going over 50. I can truly understand your feeings but it is a bit like falling off the horse you need to get back on and I have towed since and been fine. 

I have since change old landrover for a landrover discovery and that tows like a dream, so in a way because the vehichle has changed it has made me feel better.


----------



## ROG (20 September 2012)

As a truck and car driver I would expect a horse trailer combination to be found in lane 1 doing between 50 and 55 mph


----------



## Honey08 (20 September 2012)

As I said in a previous post on this thread, I had a trailer snake out of control and thankfully jacknife, ending up facing the wrong way on the hard shoulder.  This was a small trailer with a 4x4 panda many years ago. Something like that makes you realise how quickly it happens, and do everything you can not to ever put yourself in that position - especially with the horses onboard.

I don't enjoy towing the trailer (OH does mostly) but when I do, I go at 50mph on the motorways and dual carriageways.  Even confident OH wouldn't go over 55.  Its just not worth letting speed become a possible factor.  In my car, I usually drive too fast on motorways, and enjoy the fact that I will never risk a ticket when with the horses!!

ps hubby is a mechanic and dad an engineer, so trailers are set up properly.  The caution comes from past disasters....


----------

