# Spurs or no spurs?



## Debbie&Mini (13 January 2014)

I would like to find out what your opinions in spurs are? I personally don't use them, but I want to find out what you think of them?


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## Koen (14 January 2014)

Im of the opinion spurs should be banned at all levels of equestrian sport and training. So should whips be in the racing industry.

I find it puzzling that spurs haven't been banned in this day and age certainly in countries that have a long record of putting animal welfare high on their agendas.


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## pip6 (14 January 2014)

Anything can be used to enhance & used to abuse. Personally I never carry a whip or use spurs, don't need them.

When I used to do fence judging, I used to hate being on the first fence for the mini classes. You'd get mums (have to say never hada dad), coming asking if they could stand by the fence with a lunge whip to engourage darlings pony over (once he gets over the first one he's fine apparently). Always refused (after all does constitute outside interference), to see darling turn up on pony wearing spurs & with 3 ring gag snaffle in it's chops (with the ever-present flash noseband & martingale as well). Cue mummy yelling (usually 'kick him on!'), darling doing the pony club kick with the spurs, then after 2 refusals pony agrees to do the jump, getting jabbed in the chops with the gag as rider looses balance for his efforts. 

Used by talanted, responsible, calm riders I have no issue with them.


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## Mithras (14 January 2014)

Koen said:



			Im of the opinion spurs should be banned at all levels of equestrian sport and training. So should whips be in the racing industry.

I find it puzzling that spurs haven't been banned in this day and age certainly in countries that have a long record of putting animal welfare high on their agendas.
		
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Why on earth would anyone object to small rubber ball spurs?  Do you actually know what a spur is and the correct use of one?

Now, I agree with objecting to misuse of spurs, and certainly in BSJA in Scotland, you would be hauled up in front of the judges if you did that.  

Now, long distance live transportation, not enough turnout, pts healthy horses, riders too heavy for their horses, unsound horses in pain being ridden - all things I would concern myself before some aesthetic objection based on a personal and seemingly rather obsessive dislike of spurs.


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## eahotson (14 January 2014)

pip6 said:



			Anything can be used to enhance & used to abuse. Personally I never carry a whip or use spurs, don't need them.

When I used to do fence judging, I used to hate being on the first fence for the mini classes. You'd get mums (have to say never hada dad), coming asking if they could stand by the fence with a lunge whip to engourage darlings pony over (once he gets over the first one he's fine apparently). Always refused (after all does constitute outside interference), to see darling turn up on pony wearing spurs & with 3 ring gag snaffle in it's chops (with the ever-present flash noseband & martingale as well). Cue mummy yelling (usually 'kick him on!'), darling doing the pony club kick with the spurs, then after 2 refusals pony agrees to do the jump, getting jabbed in the chops with the gag as rider looses balance for his efforts. 

Used by talanted, responsible, calm riders I have no issue with them.
		
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Brill!!!


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## AdorableAlice (14 January 2014)

Koen said:



			Im of the opinion spurs should be banned at all levels of equestrian sport and training. So should whips be in the racing industry.

I find it puzzling that spurs haven't been banned in this day and age certainly in countries that have a long record of putting animal welfare high on their agendas.
		
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Drivel.


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## Elsiecat (14 January 2014)

Koen said:



			Im of the opinion spurs should be banned at all levels of equestrian sport and training. So should whips be in the racing industry.

I find it puzzling that spurs haven't been banned in this day and age certainly in countries that have a long record of putting animal welfare high on their agendas.
		
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If someone is the type of person to want to hurt an animal then I'm sure they'll find a way to hurt them with or without the use of whips or spurs.
I personally see nothing wrong with either when used correctly.


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## FireFly29 (14 January 2014)

I think there is sometimes a misconception about what spurs are used for, for example to make horses go faster, but that's not really the case.
Many experienced riders, including top pros, use blunt spurs to provide a more accurate and precise leg aid, which could be so a certain movement can be performed at exactly the right moment in a dressage test, or a turn in a jump off, or jump a narrow corner xc where a high level of accuracy is required. 
I can't see how spurs used in this way are cruel.
Obviously if the spurs are sharp, or the person is booting the hell out of a horse with them on then that's a different story, which is why spurs should really only be used by more experienced riders who have control of their lower legs.


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## Auslander (14 January 2014)

I think there are other, far more serious welfare issues that you might consider campaigning against. Spurs, used correctly, are not cruel. Misuse of spurs, whips, lead ropes, shovels, buckets, lungelines, etc, is the fault of the user, not the tool.


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## Goldenstar (14 January 2014)

I have no problems with spurs they are just a tool like any other .
I use if I want to but never use them with young horses or retraining horses .


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## Pongwiffy (14 January 2014)

Koen said:



			Im of the opinion spurs should be banned at all levels of equestrian sport and training. So should whips be in the racing industry.

I find it puzzling that spurs haven't been banned in this day and age certainly in countries that have a long record of putting animal welfare high on their agendas.
		
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Blimey, I guess this makes me a horse abuser then!

I use them because my horse's barrel shape combined with my height mean only about 3 inches of my leg below the knee actually make contact with his sides. This isn't a problem for jumping or basic schooling especially as horse is forward but for more complicated flatwork that involves more than just going forwards I need to be able to give a more refined combination of leg aids without drawing my leg up and back and raising my heel which completely disrupts my position and spurs allow me to do this.

Horse has never been injured by their use, has never even received a rub mark and he doesn't show any sign of distress at their use (tail swishing, kicking out, misbehaviour etc) so what's the problem?

Misuse should be banned definitely but a blanket ban on the basis of welfare seems a bit OTT surely?!


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## Lottiedots (14 January 2014)

Pongwiffy said:



			Blimey, I guess this makes me a horse abuser then!

I use them because my horse's barrel shape combined with my height mean only about 3 inches of my leg below the knee actually make contact with his sides. This isn't a problem for jumping or basic schooling especially as horse is forward but for more complicated flatwork that involves more than just going forwards I need to be able to give a more refined combination of leg aids without drawing my leg up and back and raising my heel which completely disrupts my position and spurs allow me to do this.

Horse has never been injured by their use, has never even received a rub mark and he doesn't show any sign of distress at their use (tail swishing, kicking out, misbehaviour etc) so what's the problem?

Misuse should be banned definitely but a blanket ban on the basis of welfare seems a bit OTT surely?!
		
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 I agree with this. I use them for refinement of aid, not as punishment. Far better to have clear aid with spur than constant nagging with leg. When my daughter was in the pony club they couldn't use spurs unless first approved by the DC.


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## Mithras (14 January 2014)

Pongwiffy said:



			Blimey, I guess this makes me a horse abuser then!

I use them because my horse's barrel shape combined with my height mean only about 3 inches of my leg below the knee actually make contact with his sides. This isn't a problem for jumping or basic schooling especially as horse is forward but for more complicated flatwork that involves more than just going forwards I need to be able to give a more refined combination of leg aids without drawing my leg up and back and raising my heel which completely disrupts my position and spurs allow me to do this.
		
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Same here.  I've never marked a horse with a spur but I'm small and short.  Though I'm pretty sure my horse appreciates being ridden by a small light person with a spur that barely makes contact!


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## LaMooch (14 January 2014)

Spurs I think can be a great aid in experienced hands or this case feet. I've used them to sharpen horses up to the leg but also on horse's slightly dead to leg. I find them a handy thing to have in the tack room. I'm very concussions of not rubbing on the horse using them and I actually more concussions of my leg position when using them. I have seen a horse cut from rubber spurs before so they can damage in the wrong hands.

However like anything in the wrong hands they can be dangerous. but used correctly they can be a great artificial aid


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## Koen (15 January 2014)

I can't agree. 

Spurs are totally unnecessary in my opinion. 

I believe the rules that spurs are a mandatory requirement for example at the top levels of dressage a complete nonsense. The rules should be changed this is 2014 not the late Middle Ages. The opposite should be in place. Spurs should not be tolerated at all.

I cant agree "in the right hands etc" they simply don't belong anywhere near a horse. 

I've never watched a dressage competition at the highest international level where I haven't seen spurs routinely abused. This doesn't mean bleeding sides or marks and gauges necessarily. Insidious, continuous use (contact) as an aid is abuse. Same in show jumping at international level. These are apparently "the right hands" ?

In the realms of the amateur rider this sanctioned abuse is widely copied but it honestly doesn't make any difference who is using them or what contrived reasons they have for using them. Their use is abuse.

A properly schooled, properly fed and fit horse should not need "artificial" aids of any kind. Fine tuning high energy feed for the job at hand and keeping a horse fit is the way, no short cuts at the horses expense.

If the horse or even the rider is not up to the job abusing the horse wont help. Understanding the horses character and working with not against it might be more ideal. Truly phlegmatic horses shouldn't be asked to do anything they aren't up for doing. Nor should riders be involved in an activity on a horse if they can't cope with a job that requires high energy.

As far as mentioned here having extremely short legs or being extremely light as a rider are not a reason to use spurs. An educated well schooled rider on a well schooled horse should have no problems with the rider using only seat and hand aids if need be. They should ride horses with more blood and feed accordingly, or accept their limitations.

Horses will move away from a whip and this is useful in training some youngsters, but it should never be used other than a light tap or gesture on or just behind the leg. Horses don't move away from spurs they cant see them to start with its only contact that will force the horse to move forward. It's also not at all constructive to use spurs instead of a whip as described above either on any horse to teach it to move away from the leg if it doesn't already by instinct. 

I can't think of a single good use for spurs, only reasons why they should be banned outright.


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## s4sugar (15 January 2014)

I have three sorts of spurs (all blunt) & use them to put fine pressure -equivalent to a poke with a finger - at specific points for specific purposes. They allow me to not move my leg but just my ankle which is helpful when one of my ankles xray resembles crazy paving.
Is this abuse- no. Would trying to kick on the previously dead to the leg ex riding school horse I sometimes ride so he takes notice be better than a poke with a ball? It would be painful to me and what would be the benefit to him? Spurs are a tool. They are meant to be used by people with sufficient experience to lighten aids.
Shock horror - I also carry a whip. Why? because it is an extension of my arm & it is used more to widen our space on the road & to close gates than on the horse but it is there to bring in the quarters if needed.

Should hammers be banned?


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## Elsiecat (15 January 2014)

Koen said:



			I can't agree. 

Spurs are totally unnecessary in my opinion. 

I believe the rules that spurs are a mandatory requirement for example at the top levels of dressage a complete nonsense. The rules should be changed this is 2014 not the late Middle Ages. The opposite should be in place. Spurs should not be tolerated at all.

I cant agree "in the right hands etc" they simply don't belong anywhere near a horse. 

I've never watched a dressage competition at the highest international level where I haven't seen spurs routinely abused. This doesn't mean bleeding sides or marks and gauges necessarily. Insidious, continuous use (contact) as an aid is abuse. Same in show jumping at international level. These are apparently "the right hands" ?

In the realms of the amateur rider this sanctioned abuse is widely copied but it honestly doesn't make any difference who is using them or what contrived reasons they have for using them. Their use is abuse.

A properly schooled, properly fed and fit horse should not need "artificial" aids of any kind. Fine tuning high energy feed for the job at hand and keeping a horse fit is the way, no short cuts at the horses expense.

If the horse or even the rider is not up to the job abusing the horse wont help. Understanding the horses character and working with not against it might be more ideal. Truly phlegmatic horses shouldn't be asked to do anything they aren't up for doing. Nor should riders be involved in an activity on a horse if they can't cope with a job that requires high energy.

As far as mentioned here having extremely short legs or being extremely light as a rider are not a reason to use spurs. An educated well schooled rider on a well schooled horse should have no problems with the rider using only seat and hand aids if need be. They should ride horses with more blood and feed accordingly, or accept their limitations.

Horses will move away from a whip and this is useful in training some youngsters, but it should never be used other than a light tap or gesture on or just behind the leg. Horses don't move away from spurs they cant see them to start with its only contact that will force the horse to move forward. It's also not at all constructive to use spurs instead of a whip as described above either on any horse to teach it to move away from the leg if it doesn't already by instinct. 

I can't think of a single good use for spurs, only reasons why they should be banned outright.
		
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Nonsense. From start to finish.


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## Mithras (15 January 2014)

Koen said:



			I can't agree. 

Spurs are totally unnecessary in my opinion. 

I believe the rules that spurs are a mandatory requirement for example at the top levels of dressage a complete nonsense. The rules should be changed this is 2014 not the late Middle Ages. The opposite should be in place. Spurs should not be tolerated at all.

I cant agree "in the right hands etc" they simply don't belong anywhere near a horse. 

I've never watched a dressage competition at the highest international level where I haven't seen spurs routinely abused. This doesn't mean bleeding sides or marks and gauges necessarily. Insidious, continuous use (contact) as an aid is abuse. Same in show jumping at international level. These are apparently "the right hands" ?

In the realms of the amateur rider this sanctioned abuse is widely copied but it honestly doesn't make any difference who is using them or what contrived reasons they have for using them. Their use is abuse.

A properly schooled, properly fed and fit horse should not need "artificial" aids of any kind. Fine tuning high energy feed for the job at hand and keeping a horse fit is the way, no short cuts at the horses expense.

If the horse or even the rider is not up to the job abusing the horse wont help. Understanding the horses character and working with not against it might be more ideal. Truly phlegmatic horses shouldn't be asked to do anything they aren't up for doing. Nor should riders be involved in an activity on a horse if they can't cope with a job that requires high energy.

As far as mentioned here having extremely short legs or being extremely light as a rider are not a reason to use spurs. An educated well schooled rider on a well schooled horse should have no problems with the rider using only seat and hand aids if need be. They should ride horses with more blood and feed accordingly, or accept their limitations.

Horses will move away from a whip and this is useful in training some youngsters, but it should never be used other than a light tap or gesture on or just behind the leg. Horses don't move away from spurs they cant see them to start with its only contact that will force the horse to move forward. It's also not at all constructive to use spurs instead of a whip as described above either on any horse to teach it to move away from the leg if it doesn't already by instinct. 

I can't think of a single good use for spurs, only reasons why they should be banned outright.
		
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I'd make a pretty accurate educated guess that not only are you probably not a rider at all, or if you are, you are a very novice level one, but that you have very limited knowledge of equine management and horsemanship, gleaned mainly from the internet and animal welfare sites.


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## Pongwiffy (15 January 2014)

Koen said:



			As far as mentioned here having extremely short legs or being extremely light as a rider are not a reason to use spurs.
		
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  My legs are long, not short - as I said, the only way I can make contact with my horse's sides with my lower leg would be by putting in a joint in my shin or by shifting my leg up and back and raising my heel which, apart from looking ugly means I am applying the leg near his flank - which is incorrect.   



Koen said:



			An educated well schooled rider on a well schooled horse should have no problems with the rider using only seat and hand aids if need be. They should ride horses with more blood and feed accordingly, or accept their limitations.
		
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  Horses are not born well schooled - once they understand what you are asking then a good part of that training is about refining the aids IMO. You teach a young horse to turn by opening the rein but later on you can change direction by just twisting your waist -  an aid that subtle wouldn't work initially, it takes training. When teaching walk to canter to my horse I needed lots of leg and had to really exaggerate putting my outside leg back to get the transition - now I can get walk to canter with a half halt and a slight shift of weight - but I couldn't have done that initially because aids that subtle wouldn't have meant anything to my horse, it takes training.  The horse understands perfectly that a squeeze with my calf means go forward and he is a forward horse but when I am trying to teach him lateral work I need to make it clear to him that in addition to going forward I also need him to move over sideways. I need to support him with my inside leg and whilst doing all of this this I may also need to ask him for a bit more energy from a particular hind leg... If my horse was bigger or I was shorter I would be able to use the inside of my foot and my heel in addition to my calf to help him differentiate more clearly between my aids - but as I can't reach his sides I use spurs.   My personal goal is to get to the point where I can perform all of our work without spurs because he will be so comfortable in what I am asking him to do and so finely tuned in to the combination of rein, seat and leg he won't need the more obvious aids he still requires at the moment - but until then I use spurs to help me communicate as clearly as possible without having to wave my legs around or clamp them on him because a sensitive, confused horse is a stressed and unhappy horse in my experience.   



Koen said:



			Horses don't move away from spurs they cant see them to start with its only contact that will force the horse to move forward.
		
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  WHy a horse needs to see something in order to learn to respond to it?  Horses are always taught to respond by moving away from pressure and once they know the required response they will usually respond to less pressure than you initially required. A source of pressure might be a hand on its neck asking it to move over, a bit, a hand tapping a fetlock asking it to raise its hoof, a head collar, a rider's leg, not just whips and spurs. All of these could be performed or used abusively with excessive force but that doesn't make contact itself inherently abusive.  



Koen said:



			Insidious, continuous use (contact) as an aid is abuse.
		
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  Not necessarily but it's definitely good way to pee your horse off or make the aid ineffective because it would cease to mean anything to the horse. Personally I am confident as a rider that whatever other faults I may have, keeping my spurs in constant contact with my horse's sides is not one of them. As a lowly amateur I am also pretty sure I can't be the only rider in the world who has control of their lower leg.


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## Mithras (15 January 2014)

To be fair, I jump only 1 out of my 3 in spurs.  And it is the most forward going of the three with the most blood.  As an owner-rider, I can fine tune what my horse responds best to.  Some horses like the reassurance of a spur when jumping.  This is the horse I like to invite other people to ride, as he is very large and I'm very small, and there have been quite a few who thought his very forward going style was because I was too small for him, or because I wore spurs and jazzed him up.  Since he is 17 and no-one can change his way of going, this is often quite an interesting exercise, and has demonstrated the old adage quite literally, pride comes before a fall.  He's very phlegmatic if you do things his way and one of the things he likes is a feeling of certainty from the rider, which is aided by a rubber ball spur to be used if necessary for slightly greater pressure from a leg already halfway up his side!  Saying that, he wins a lot and I quite enjoy his quirkiness.

I note that "Koen" doesn't distinguish between different types of spurs, or mention leg position.


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## LaMooch (15 January 2014)

Koen said:



			Horses will move away from a whip and this is useful in training some youngsters, but it should never be used other than a light tap or gesture on or just behind the leg. Horses don't move away from spurs they cant see them to start with its only contact that will force the horse to move forward. It's also not at all constructive to use spurs instead of a whip as described above either on any horse to teach it to move away from the leg if it doesn't already by instinct. 

I can't think of a single good use for spurs, only reasons why they should be banned outright.
		
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I don't understand your point. You say spurs are a big no no but whips are ok. Surely if the horse is well schooled, which comes with time and training, then they would not need a whip either?


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## Templebar (15 January 2014)

Yes for spurs, having come up through the pony club to ride with spurs you must get your membership card signed by the DC of your club before riding with them. This then encourages instruction on the correct use of spurs, which results in riders knowledgeable and good enough to know when and when not to use them. I use traditional spurs, the ones most commonly seen. The way they are attached to my boots means that in order to use them i need to turn my toe outwards, therefore i can actually still kick with them on without them actually touching the horse if i wished but that is not the point of them. 

I wear them when riding over fences particularly on a horse that would easily lose confidence but gains confidence from good aids and encouragement from the leg. My one pony is use them on to help encourage her to jump with confidence and this is useful if we have had a bad fence or a slip. I do not kick or jab with them it just adds to the leg pressure. I would much rather use these which back up an already accepted aid by the horse than use a whip down the shoulder before a fence as i see so many others do and distract the horse often resulting in either a early take off and bad jump instead of continued encouragement to the fence.


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## Piglet (15 January 2014)

I use spurs in dressage competitions and lessons as my horse can sometimes become lazy, they are only very short blunt ones and a quick occasional use of a spur is far more beneficial than constantly nagging with the leg.  I don't like to see the more severe type of spur which some people use.  As others have said there are far more cruel practices which should be addressed.


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## Mrs B (15 January 2014)

Have a feeling that the OP is of the PETA persuasion ...


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## AdorableAlice (15 January 2014)

Spurs, whips, curb bits, running reins all have a place and are all as cruel or kind as the hand that operates them.

I have a pair of swan necked rowelled spurs hanging in my tack room, they last saw the light of day many years ago when they persuaded a nappy horse that life was far better in a forward gear.  He went on to be a polite and obliging citizen with no need for spurs in the future.


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## paulineh (15 January 2014)

As spurs are not allowed in my sport (Endurance) then why would I need to wear them in training.

When I use to hunt a lot Spurs were part of the correct dress so for that reason and that reason only did I ever wear them.

The problem is that children etc see their idols wearing them and they think that they should wear them too.

No need to wear / use them if you train your horse correctly


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## Koen (16 January 2014)

paulineh said:



			As spurs are not allowed in my sport (Endurance) then why would I need to wear them in training.

When I use to hunt a lot Spurs were part of the correct dress so for that reason and that reason only did I ever wear them.

The problem is that children etc see their idols wearing them and they think that they should wear them too.

No need to wear / use them if you train your horse correctly
		
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I have to admit to knowing nothing about endurance riding. That is highly commendable that spurs are not part of the uniform.

Spurs are it's very true part of "the uniform", this way of thinking prevails but like many traditions it has no place in this day and age.

'To be fair'  a lot of riders have been brought up thinking spurs are fine, everyone used/uses them......time for a rethink.

I still haven't heard a single good reason for their use here.

Yes it's a tool so is the rack. Its a tool that should be binned and banned.

No spurs are safe. 

A simple understanding that a horse is not a machine will suffice. It has ribs, iron or anything hard on bone is painful.

All these dead desensitised horses...... what a revelation it must be to them to still know they can feel pain?

I have a feeling, well I know for a certainty there are an awful lot of horses being asked to do a job they are not cut out to be doing and some being ridden that just shouldn't be. A horse should never be forced. Rethink your ambitions.

If a well schooled horse is not responding to feeding is completely dead to the leg it shouldn't be ridden, there are obviously underlying problems that make it not suitable for riding. Horses aren't born to be ridden, that is to say the fact that it's a horse is not a guarantee it should be ridden.


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## Koen (16 January 2014)

Piglet said:



			I use spurs in dressage competitions and lessons as my horse can sometimes become lazy, they are only very short blunt ones and a quick occasional use of a spur is far more beneficial than constantly nagging with the leg.  I don't like to see the more severe type of spur which some people use.  As others have said there are far more cruel practices which should be addressed.
		
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Try feeding it straight oats and going for it? Even better race horse mix. 

You might have to lunge him/her for ten minutes before you get on.


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## Koen (16 January 2014)

LaMooch said:



			I don't understand your point. You say spurs are a big no no but whips are ok. Surely if the horse is well schooled, which comes with time and training, then they would not need a whip either?
		
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Correct. It's a crutch for many riders.

How many times do you se a horse get a wallop because it refuses a fence, or a jab with the spurs?  More often than not it doesnt help at all and they still end up in a heap.

What horse endure.....


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## Koen (16 January 2014)

AdorableAlice said:



			Spurs, whips, curb bits, running reins all have a place and are all as cruel or kind as the hand that operates them.

I have a pair of swan necked rowelled spurs hanging in my tack room, they last saw the light of day many years ago when they persuaded a nappy horse that life was far better in a forward gear.  He went on to be a polite and obliging citizen with no need for spurs in the future.
		
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BTW I also think the double bridal should not be madatory in Dressage at any level.

Lets face it a horse not able to do exactly the same in a simple snaffle with a cavesson shouldn't be there.


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## Koen (16 January 2014)

Mithras said:



			To be fair, I jump only 1 out of my 3 in spurs.  And it is the most forward going of the three with the most blood.  As an owner-rider, I can fine tune what my horse responds best to.  Some horses like the reassurance of a spur when jumping.  This is the horse I like to invite other people to ride, as he is very large and I'm very small, and there have been quite a few who thought his very forward going style was because I was too small for him, or because I wore spurs and jazzed him up.  Since he is 17 and no-one can change his way of going, this is often quite an interesting exercise, and has demonstrated the old adage quite literally, pride comes before a fall.  He's very phlegmatic if you do things his way and one of the things he likes is a feeling of certainty from the rider, which is aided by a rubber ball spur to be used if necessary for slightly greater pressure from a leg already halfway up his side!  Saying that, he wins a lot and I quite enjoy his quirkiness.

I note that "Koen" doesn't distinguish between different types of spurs, or mention leg position.
		
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I cant make head nor tail of what you are trying to say here?

Not being rude but you seem to be giving your horse all sorts of anthropomorphic attributes.

Are you sure its him that likes the reassurance of spurs?

"He's very phlegmatic if you do things his way" "one think he likes is the feeling of certainty from the rider" "Some horses like the reassurance of a spur"

So to do things not his way (as he likes the good old reassuring spurs?) dump the spurs and be goes like a bomb?


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## Koen (16 January 2014)

Pongwiffy said:



			My legs are long, not short - as I said, the only way I can make contact with my horse's sides with my lower leg would be by putting in a joint in my shin or by shifting my leg up and back and raising my heel which, apart from looking ugly means I am applying the leg near his flank - which is incorrect.     Horses are not born well schooled - once they understand what you are asking then a good part of that training is about refining the aids IMO. You teach a young horse to turn by opening the rein but later on you can change direction by just twisting your waist -  an aid that subtle wouldn't work initially, it takes training. When teaching walk to canter to my horse I needed lots of leg and had to really exaggerate putting my outside leg back to get the transition - now I can get walk to canter with a half halt and a slight shift of weight - but I couldn't have done that initially because aids that subtle wouldn't have meant anything to my horse, it takes training.  The horse understands perfectly that a squeeze with my calf means go forward and he is a forward horse but when I am trying to teach him lateral work I need to make it clear to him that in addition to going forward I also need him to move over sideways.
		
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I understand you have a handicap in this respect but spurs are not going to help. If your heal is hanging bellow the horses belly because your legs are so long there is no way spurs are going to help you, you are going to be jabbing thin air. Pressure with your calves is all you need and your seat, for any movements. A dressage whip will help in training absolutely.

Yes it takes training of the horse to get them listening to just the seat aids and very subtle changes in finger position. For you I would definitely suggest a horse with a lot of TB in it, where you can use the waiting aids. These horses also take to learning the seat aids very very easily. Simply briefly opening and closing your fingers ever so slightly and sitting very still will get you an extended canter.

I think there is nothing quite as elegant as a very well centred tall rider riding effortlessly. I will looking for some videos to show you...there are a few very good very tall riders.


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## Elsiecat (16 January 2014)

Koen said:



			You might have to lunge him/her for ten minutes before you get on. 

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Lunging can put strain on a horses joints. I think lunging should be banned. It has no place in society.

(See how that works?)


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## PaddyMonty (16 January 2014)

Subjecting animals to slavery has no place in leisure. Time to ban riding horses full stop?


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## Fellewell (16 January 2014)

Let's get one of those animal telepathists to ask Mad Moose what he thinks


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## PaddyMonty (16 January 2014)

Fellewell said:



			Let's get one of those animal telepathists to ask Mad Moose what he thinks 

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I would have thought getting someone to read his mind without his permission would be against his animal rights.


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## Fellewell (16 January 2014)

PaddyMonty said:



			I would have thought getting someone to read his mind without his permission would be against his animal rights.
		
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On the other hand he may welcome the opportunity to put forward his views on industrial relations and his right to withhold labour.


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## LaMooch (16 January 2014)

So Keon should we ban riding altogether and just let horses be wild and free?


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## AdorableAlice (16 January 2014)

Koen said:



			BTW I also think the double bridal should not be madatory in Dressage at any level.

Lets face it a horse not able to do exactly the same in a simple snaffle with a cavesson shouldn't be there.
		
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Bridle.  Your ideals are perhaps more suited to the bridal industry.


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## Mithras (16 January 2014)

Koen said:



			I cant make head nor tail of what you are trying to say here?

Not being rude but you seem to be giving your horse all sorts of anthropomorphic attributes.

Are you sure its him that likes the reassurance of spurs?

"He's very phlegmatic if you do things his way" "one think he likes is the feeling of certainty from the rider" "Some horses like the reassurance of a spur"

So to do things not his way (as he likes the good old reassuring spurs?) dump the spurs and be goes like a bomb?
		
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Its called having a partnership with your horse.

No, without me riding him in my favoured equipment, he dumps professional riders by stopping and firing them into the jump.  Which is possibly because he only started affiliated jumping at age 13 and needs someone to adapt to him and his various quirks, not the other way round.

Do feel free to pm me if you want a shot round a 1m20 course on him.  I'm pretty confident he is so set in his way of going that no-one, even the most idiotic talking horse novice of a rider, could harm him. 

His nickname on the yard is The Equaliser.


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## Mithras (16 January 2014)

Koen said:



			I think there is nothing quite as elegant as a very well centred tall rider riding effortlessly. I will looking for some videos to show you...there are a few very good very tall riders.
		
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Gosh.  Sorry for butting in, but could I possibly watch said video link too.  I await it with baited breath, what with me being unable to search the internet for a tall elegant rider myself.


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## Pongwiffy (16 January 2014)

Koen said:



			For you I would definitely suggest a horse with a lot of TB in it, where you can use the waiting aids. These horses also take to learning the seat aids very very easily.
		
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I appreciate the recommendation but as I don't have a horse with a lot of TB in it I have to work with what I've got,  unless I was willing to sell my horse- which I'm not as we have a good relationship.

I would imagine very few riders find their perfectly proportioned equine partner who also has the talent and temperament they also ideally need so need to overcome a few issues in order to get the best out of them.

Swan neck spurs were invented to help address a particular issue so I really don't see the objection as long as, like all spurs, they are used with tact and sensitivity. Interestingly my horse was nervous about me carrying a whip initially but accepted spurs from the beginning with no problem.


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## AdorableAlice (16 January 2014)

Strange old thread.

I believe no horse should ever be ridden on the road without the rider carrying a whip in the outside hand.  Thoughts ?


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## Cortez (16 January 2014)

AdorableAlice said:



			Strange old thread.

I believe no horse should ever be ridden on the road without the rider carrying a whip in the outside hand.  Thoughts ?
		
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Agree 100%.


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## Goldenstar (16 January 2014)

Koen said:



			I can't agree. 

Spurs are totally unnecessary in my opinion. 

I believe the rules that spurs are a mandatory requirement for example at the top levels of dressage a complete nonsense. The rules should be changed this is 2014 not the late Middle Ages. The opposite should be in place. Spurs should not be tolerated at all.

I cant agree "in the right hands etc" they simply don't belong anywhere near a horse. 

I've never watched a dressage competition at the highest international level where I haven't seen spurs routinely abused. This doesn't mean bleeding sides or marks and gauges necessarily. Insidious, continuous use (contact) as an aid is abuse. Same in show jumping at international level. These are apparently "the right hands" ?

In the realms of the amateur rider this sanctioned abuse is widely copied but it honestly doesn't make any difference who is using them or what contrived reasons they have for using them. Their use is abuse.

A properly schooled, properly fed and fit horse should not need "artificial" aids of any kind. Fine tuning high energy feed for the job at hand and keeping a horse fit is the way, no short cuts at the horses expense.

If the horse or even the rider is not up to the job abusing the horse wont help. Understanding the horses character and working with not against it might be more ideal. Truly phlegmatic horses shouldn't be asked to do anything they aren't up for doing. Nor should riders be involved in an activity on a horse if they can't cope with a job that requires high energy.

As far as mentioned here having extremely short legs or being extremely light as a rider are not a reason to use spurs. An educated well schooled rider on a well schooled horse should have no problems with the rider using only seat and hand aids if need be. They should ride horses with more blood and feed accordingly, or accept their limitations.

Horses will move away from a whip and this is useful in training some youngsters, but it should never be used other than a light tap or gesture on or just behind the leg. Horses don't move away from spurs they cant see them to start with its only contact that will force the horse to move forward. It's also not at all constructive to use spurs instead of a whip as described above either on any horse to teach it to move away from the leg if it doesn't already by instinct. 

I can't think of a single good use for spurs, only reasons why they should be banned outright.
		
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Yawn ,
You do want with you're horse and we'll do what we want with ours .


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## Bertieb123 (16 January 2014)

Koen said:



			Correct. It's a crutch for many riders.

How many times do you se a horse get a wallop because it refuses a fence, or a jab with the spurs?  More often than not it doesnt help at all and they still end up in a heap.

What horse endure.....
		
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And what do you have to say about bits then? A bit is cruel in the wrong hands perhaps we should stop using them too!


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## Mithras (16 January 2014)

Bertieb123 said:



			And what do you have to say about bits then? A bit is cruel in the wrong hands perhaps we should stop using them too!
		
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Now bitless, I am sorted.  One of mine goes in a hackamore, and my bit once broke mid round and managed to finish the course (on the horse with spurs)!


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## BethanT (16 January 2014)

pip6 said:



			Anything can be used to enhance & used to abuse. Personally I never carry a whip or use spurs, don't need them.

When I used to do fence judging, I used to hate being on the first fence for the mini classes. You'd get mums (have to say never hada dad), coming asking if they could stand by the fence with a lunge whip to engourage darlings pony over (once he gets over the first one he's fine apparently). Always refused (after all does constitute outside interference), to see darling turn up on pony wearing spurs & with 3 ring gag snaffle in it's chops (with the ever-present flash noseband & martingale as well). Cue mummy yelling (usually 'kick him on!'), darling doing the pony club kick with the spurs, then after 2 refusals pony agrees to do the jump, getting jabbed in the chops with the gag as rider looses balance for his efforts. 

Used by talanted, responsible, calm riders I have no issue with them.
		
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I remember being at a PC ODE where all under 16's had to be approved by the pony club district commisioner to wear spurs. Being only just 16 and not a member of the pony club I almost wasn't allowed to wear them - in fact I was only allowed them for jumping and not for dresage. Lucky I knew the DC or I wouldn't have been allowed them at all.


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## Alec Swan (16 January 2014)

I have to ask Koen,  but do you have a relative who's also an authority on Ragwort?

Alec.


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## BethanT (16 January 2014)

Koen said:



			For you I would definitely suggest a horse with a lot of TB in it, where you can use the waiting aids. These horses also take to learning the seat aids very very easily. Simply briefly opening and closing your fingers ever so slightly and sitting very still will get you an extended canter.
		
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Sorry, who are you to suggest what horse people should be riding? I don't thinks that is your call at all especially if you have not met either of them. Down right rude if you ask me


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## Goldenstar (16 January 2014)

Alec Swan said:



			I have to ask Koen,  but do you have a relative who's also an authority on Ragwort?

Alec.
		
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Snort


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## tristar (16 January 2014)

if a horse cannot be shown engaged and perform without the use of obligatory spurs and cannot be held together without a double bridle, it just goes to show that the dressage has failed, i would like to see comps for horses to show that the rider can produce a horse without  the use of either.
i agree with the use of the whip for riding out, and to support sharpness off the aids, but  gently and only when really necessary.
for me the suitability of  horse for purpose is crucial, and personal preference, i only ride sharp horses preferably high proportion tb although i have one horse who is almost lazy to start with, but as he warms up he becomes very dynamic, i have learned a lot from him, how to sit to influence him effectively and this has dramatically improved my riding of other horses, the best lesson of my riding life i owe to him, if i pushed him with harsh aids he would have backed off, i was forced to find a better way, so learned to get results without spurs, which i have never used, it did'nt occur to me even, i feel so sorry for the frustration people feel when they cannot get the results they want, all the shoving and pushing and jabbing is not the pathway to where they want to go, if fact the right horse and the right attitude go hand in hand, i think anyway.


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## Koen (17 January 2014)

tristar said:



			if a horse cannot be shown engaged and perform without the use of obligatory spurs and cannot be held together without a double bridle, it just goes to show that the dressage has failed, i would like to see comps for horses to show that the rider can produce a horse without  the use of either.
i agree with the use of the whip for riding out, and to support sharpness off the aids, but  gently and only when really necessary.
for me the suitability of  horse for purpose is crucial, and personal preference, i only ride sharp horses preferably high proportion tb although i have one horse who is almost lazy to start with, but as he warms up he becomes very dynamic, i have learned a lot from him, how to sit to influence him effectively and this has dramatically improved my riding of other horses, the best lesson of my riding life i owe to him, if i pushed him with harsh aids he would have backed off, i was forced to find a better way, so learned to get results without spurs, which i have never used, it did'nt occur to me even, i feel so sorry for the frustration people feel when they cannot get the results they want, all the shoving and pushing and jabbing is not the pathway to where they want to go, if fact the right horse and the right attitude go hand in hand, i think anyway.
		
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And this is of course the most sensible reply amongst them all.

I had a good chuckle for the most reading the replies. It was like riffling the grandparents attic for their fragile sepia copies of Punch magazine, flashbacks of Thelwell's ponies and camp political indignation. You would've thought I had closed the ship yards! Sadly I also get the distinct and rather uncomfortable feeling most of those that replied should most definitely not be anywhere near a pair of spurs or even a pony for that matter.

Tristar has it spot on. 

While it does of course concern me the use of spurs in amateur pursuits it must of course come from the top down to have any effect. That's to say their use at the very top of professional equestrian sporting competitions is where they have the most influence and where they should be banned. I believe it won't be very long before they will be too, just a matter of time. 

The double bridle most definitely should also be phased out of FEI Dressage tests. It serves no purpose and quite honestly simply masks a horses training or lack off training one of the most important things they are supposedly being scored on. It was a huge relief for me when bridle inspection was introduced at FEI events, the practise of the use of the tortuously tight nose bands to clamp the jaws shut ended. In the ring at least. Sadly this continues at home in private yards but the effect of its control at international and national levels will definitely continue trickling down steadily.

Horses trained for dressage at the top level are most often trained in a double bridle from start, as three year olds back home. Its stuck in their mouths so they get used to it not because the horse needs it or the rider, it's as much part of a redundant uniform as a pair of spurs is or a top hat has become. The fact that it's called for, mandatory means riders don't have the choice, though there certainly are riders that do in fact consider it unnecessary.

Unfortunately it's all too common for the spur to be the only aid to the piaffe in dressage competitions. It may take another ruffle of the dressage worlds feathers to see that the dogmatic requirement of rigid old school absolute military style discipline is no longer a requirement for a horse to express itself to it's full potential. It's in fact an impediment. Something we may feel that is pretty obvious especially as it impinges on the welfare of the horse too but strangely enough its not that obvious to most dressage judges today. 

If a horse could have more freedom of expression the odd mistake wouldn't be seen as a mistake at all. To get to that level the horse needs higher energy levels and this is where the "spur piaffe syndrome" will end as riders could feed their horses and allow for a more natural piaffe. The irony of course is that horses are being bred with more and more of this energy to be able to be contenders at the top levels. 

The excitement will die down very quickly amongst the punters but obviously it will take commitment from the FEI but maybe even legislation is the answere if need be, Im not fussed. The sooner the better.


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## RLS (17 January 2014)

sorry I haven't read all the replies, except this last page. 
I have always felt that it's strange that at the very top level of dressage everyone rides with a double bridle and spurs. If they are such fabby dooby riders with such well trained horses, why can't they manage these movements with a plain ol' snaffle? 
I don't ride my horse in spurs (I value my life too much for that) but I know some people who ride theirs in spurs and I don't really see how (used correctly and sympathetically) it's any more cruel than using a metal bar in the horse's mouth. 
Oh, and riding my wee arab in the school the other day when my friend put her mare out in the field adjacent to it - que my horse with tail straight up in the air piaffe-ing for the olympics! Shame it had absolutely nothing to do with me and I have no idea how to get him to do it again.


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## Cortez (17 January 2014)

Well, where to start? This level of ignorance, hysteria and just plain rudeness is breathtaking; I commend you. 

Spurs, and bits of whatever variety, are tools and like any tool can be used to create, or to destroy. People who do not know how to use things delicately should not be let loose with sophisticated equipment, the analogy could encompass knives and surgeon's scalpels. Anybody who is jabbing with spurs doesn't know how to use them; same goes for misusing a double bridle.

So you think that impulsion should be created by riding Thoroughbreds and feeding the horse high-powered food, do you? Have you ever actually ridden a dressage test? Or even a trained horse? Do you seriously think that getting a horse half out of its mind on sugary feed is GOOD for it? For your information the vast majority of successful dressage horses are VERY hot, go like rockets and are fed VERY well indeed; and would scare the bejasus out of most average riders.

And as for "dressage horses have double bridles on from the age of three", where do you get this information from? This is simply not my experience, and I have worked in dressage all of my life, from breeding to Grand Prix training. And any of my higher level horses go equally well in snaffles, thank you very much - not that a snaffle bit is an any way "kinder" in the wrong hands. 

I suggest that you climb down from your high horse and go and ride a real one. Oh, and ameliorate your hectoring, highly innaccurate and rude tone if you actually want anyone to listen to your arguments.


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## Elbie (17 January 2014)

Am I the only one who can't the correlation between feeding more and achieving better schooling without spurs? Koen states "riders could feed their horses and allow for a more natural piaffe". I don't understand this? In my opinion, surely if you feed more, you can get more energy but this would be a negative energy.


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## amandap (17 January 2014)

Elbie said:



			Am I the only one who can't the correlation between feeding more and achieving better schooling without spurs? Koen states "riders could feed their horses and allow for a more natural piaffe". I don't understand this? In my opinion, surely if you feed more, you can get more energy but this would be a negative energy.
		
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Perhaps it's supposed to be feel?


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## Billy the kid (17 January 2014)

Cortez said:



			Well, where to start? This level of ignorance, hysteria and just plain rudeness is breathtaking; I commend you. 

Spurs, and bits of whatever variety, are tools and like any tool can be used to create, or to destroy. People who do not know how to use things delicately should not be let loose with sophisticated equipment, the analogy could encompass knives and surgeon's scalpels. Anybody who is jabbing with spurs doesn't know how to use them; same goes for misusing a double bridle.

So you think that impulsion should be created by riding Thoroughbreds and feeding the horse high-powered food, do you? Have you ever actually ridden a dressage test? Or even a trained horse? Do you seriously think that getting a horse half out of its mind on sugary feed is GOOD for it? For your information the vast majority of successful dressage horses are VERY hot, go like rockets and are fed VERY well indeed; and would scare the bejasus out of most average riders.

And as for "dressage horses have double bridles on from the age of three", where do you get this information from? This is simply not my experience, and I have worked in dressage all of my life, from breeding to Grand Prix training. And any of my higher level horses go equally well in snaffles, thank you very much - not that a snaffle bit is an any way "kinder" in the wrong hands. 

I suggest that you climb down from your high horse and go and ride a real one. Oh, and ameliorate your hectoring, highly innaccurate and rude tone if you actually want anyone to listen to your arguments.
		
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LIKE!


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## RachelBristol (17 January 2014)

Koen said:



			I can't agree. 

Spurs are totally unnecessary in my opinion. 

I believe the rules that spurs are a mandatory requirement for example at the top levels of dressage a complete nonsense. The rules should be changed this is 2014 not the late Middle Ages. The opposite should be in place. Spurs should not be tolerated at all.

I cant agree "in the right hands etc" they simply don't belong anywhere near a horse. 

I've never watched a dressage competition at the highest international level where I haven't seen spurs routinely abused. This doesn't mean bleeding sides or marks and gauges necessarily. Insidious, continuous use (contact) as an aid is abuse. Same in show jumping at international level. These are apparently "the right hands" ?

In the realms of the amateur rider this sanctioned abuse is widely copied but it honestly doesn't make any difference who is using them or what contrived reasons they have for using them. Their use is abuse.

A properly schooled, properly fed and fit horse should not need "artificial" aids of any kind. Fine tuning high energy feed for the job at hand and keeping a horse fit is the way, no short cuts at the horses expense.

If the horse or even the rider is not up to the job abusing the horse wont help. Understanding the horses character and working with not against it might be more ideal. Truly phlegmatic horses shouldn't be asked to do anything they aren't up for doing. Nor should riders be involved in an activity on a horse if they can't cope with a job that requires high energy.

As far as mentioned here having extremely short legs or being extremely light as a rider are not a reason to use spurs. An educated well schooled rider on a well schooled horse should have no problems with the rider using only seat and hand aids if need be. They should ride horses with more blood and feed accordingly, or accept their limitations.

Horses will move away from a whip and this is useful in training some youngsters, but it should never be used other than a light tap or gesture on or just behind the leg. Horses don't move away from spurs they cant see them to start with its only contact that will force the horse to move forward. It's also not at all constructive to use spurs instead of a whip as described above either on any horse to teach it to move away from the leg if it doesn't already by instinct. 

I can't think of a single good use for spurs, only reasons why they should be banned outright.
		
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Oh dear... I suspect you have never ridden a highly schooled horse which has sooo many "buttons" its scary.  My horse wouldn't know what to do if i gave it a pony club kick, he'd probably throw a wobble and put me on the floor!  why?  because you have to be precise with him, there is a different spot of about an inch for collected trot vs medium vs extension, then if you happen to apply a fraction too much on one side he will transition up, shift your weight slightly or move the other leg a fraction and you'll have flying changes all over the place!  But hey if you want to get the best out of my beautifully schooled ned without them feel free, although I expect he will either put you on the floor for annoying the hell out of him with nondescript aids, or go in to hack mode (don't ware them to hack him) which is Ill just doodle along thank you very much.  oh and the whip, not needed for schooling, however on a hack he is half likely to stop or decide to go home, you don't have to touch him with it, in fact DONT touch him with it because that will spark a strop, simply show him it, and he will happily carry on as you wanted.


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## Elbie (17 January 2014)

Perhaps it's supposed to be feel?
		
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I dunno, Koen has previously said on this thread 




			Fine tuning high energy feed for the job at hand and keeping a horse fit is the way
		
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Maybe they do mean feed?


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## Mithras (17 January 2014)

Koen said:



			I had a good chuckle for the most reading the replies. It was like riffling the grandparents attic for their fragile sepia copies of Punch magazine, flashbacks of Thelwell's ponies and camp political indignation. You would've thought I had closed the ship yards! Sadly I also get the distinct and rather uncomfortable feeling most of those that replied should most definitely not be anywhere near a pair of spurs or even a pony for that matter..
		
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Interesting set of cultural clichés, though not really of reference to the country I live in.



Koen said:



			The excitement will die down very quickly amongst the punters but obviously it will take 
commitment from the FEI but maybe even legislation is the answere if need be, Im not fussed. The sooner the better.
		
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The only excitement here seems to be from you.  There are no plans to legislate in terms of use of spurs in the UK or from a European directive - there is absolutely no EU intentions of harmonisation in this area whatsoever.  The FEI does not have the power to legislate.  It is irrelevant whether you are "fussed" or not.



Koen said:



			I would definitely suggest a horse with a lot of TB in it, where you can use the waiting aids. These horses also take to learning the seat aids very very easily.
		
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If you ride horses for a living (which I have done, at some top yards), you are expected to adapt to whatever horse you are on.  Telling your employer you will be riding a type of horse more suited to you would make you a laughing stock!  And unemployable.  I found it helpful to work at top yards when I had the opportunity, and to learn from those who have a higher level of skill than me.  You seem unaware of the existence of sharp full bred Irish Draughts, or sluggish TBs!  Maybe you could try and see if you could get some yard experience in a yard in Ireland or somewhere?

Even the amateur rider has to adapt to different horses - it might take decades to find that perfect horse, and from what you suggest, the amount of wastage in amateurs rejecting horses that might not be quite right for them without ever giving it time to form a partnership would be horrific.

Another thing I find useful is to be open to new ideas and solutions and tailor them to the individual horse.  ie treating the horse as an individual, not expecting the horse to adapt to you.  This is one advantage smaller yards or your hated "amateur rider" sometimes have over the larger yards - I know many examples of horses which won virtually nothing in showjumping in bigger yards or who were written off as not even being worth going out to compete, which have excelled and become regular winners with those self same amateur riders.  

I also think you treat your "amateur rider" as stupid and misguided at your peril.  Many of them are anything but have simply because someone has chosen not to make a career in the notoriously unreliable equestrian field.


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## tristar (17 January 2014)

there's better places than ireland to gain experience, in my australian osteopath's opinion 'its like the dark ages'  and joking apart it is infested with ragwort, sadly


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## Koen (18 January 2014)

tristar said:



			there's better places than ireland to gain experience, in my australian osteopath's opinion 'its like the dark ages'  and joking apart it is infested with ragwort, sadly
		
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Yes... 

There is obviously in some quarters a belief that the word amateur is also somehow derogatory? Could this have something to do with the racing industry?


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## Koen (18 January 2014)

RachelBristol said:



			Oh dear... I suspect you have never ridden a highly schooled horse which has sooo many "buttons" its scary.  My horse wouldn't know what to do if i gave it a pony club kick, he'd probably throw a wobble and put me on the floor!  why?  because you have to be precise with him, there is a different spot of about an inch for collected trot vs medium vs extension, then if you happen to apply a fraction too much on one side he will transition up, shift your weight slightly or move the other leg a fraction and you'll have flying changes all over the place!  But hey if you want to get the best out of my beautifully schooled ned without them feel free, although I expect he will either put you on the floor for annoying the hell out of him with nondescript aids, or go in to hack mode (don't ware them to hack him) which is Ill just doodle along thank you very much.  oh and the whip, not needed for schooling, however on a hack he is half likely to stop or decide to go home, you don't have to touch him with it, in fact DONT touch him with it because that will spark a strop, simply show him it, and he will happily carry on as you wanted.
		
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Random choice here but I didn't want everyone thinking I was being "rude" by ignoring the generally motley responses from the pro spur lobby that I seem to have elicited. I don't ever intend to be rude, it's a simple thought process.

Horses don't have "buttons". I wish people would stop using that word, I detest it. If yours does in fact have buttons it's been hopelessly and complicatedly trained to respond to "buttons". "A different spot of about an inch for for collected trot vs medium.........." 

In the days when preferred dressage horses where generally (though there were the few outstanding exceptions, horses like Ahlerich ) heavy plough horses circus trick tactics were the norm as was the extremely heavy use of the spur. Legs pumping and jabbing was seen as acceptable, buttons all over the place like hard labouring steam engines. Far as Im concerned dressage horses today have gone way beyond the combustion engine, if anything and we go with the engineering "button" analogy we are in the digital age of control. Touch screens.

Shifting weight shifting legs not ideal its meant to be effortless. For passage I sit squarely and slightly deeper closing my legs softly being absolutely steady with soft hands, he comes up. No jab with the spur or at the correct buttons, no flapping with the lower leg! For extended trot I sit I relax some my fingers monetarily he opens up and I hold the extent I wish him to extend by its touch and feely then immediately adjusting my fingers.......

It's quite difficult explaining granted I understand that, so in my case if Im exaggerating my apologies. But why oh why all the marching and some in some cases flying riders legs for simple tempe changes! Not only that torso's flopping.....spurs raking up and down. When all you need to do is ask with alternative seat bones. Hips, seat, torso for all intensive purposes completely still but soft holding the tempo with gentle fingers. Like playing the piano, light varying pressure on the keys, fingers.

Maybe you guys aren't getting enough sex but refine the rutting process to barely perceivable movements and you have your most accurate and influential aids. And you don't see it because those aids are encased in the good old gluteus maximus.

Anyone know what the waiting aids are?

Spurs are a crutch. So is the double bridle, a horses mouth is a miracle of feeling. And why would you even try and do dressage on a horse with a dead mouth? Try something else like gentle hacking instead just as pleasurable.


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## babymare (18 January 2014)

wow as anyone explained to carl and charlotte how wrong they are riding. think they should be asking for lessons


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## Luci07 (18 January 2014)

Amazing amount of drivel written on this post. Koen, you are keen to express your opinion, you don't actually support it by explaining what experience you have or what horses you ride. Your comment about TB blood would lead me to believe you are not widely experienced. My young TB x gelding is ridden with small spurs. My older TB x mare is not. I look at what works for my different horses and use it accordingly and a GOOD horseman will always review what works for their horses and what is comfortable for them. Every single piece of equipment that is put on or used on a horse has the potential to be harmful. It is up to us to ensure this is not the case.


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## RachelBristol (18 January 2014)

Koen said:



			Maybe you guys aren't getting enough sex
		
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Well that doesnt apply to me  LOL


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## RachelBristol (18 January 2014)

Luci07 said:



			Koen, you are keen to express your opinion, you don't actually support it by explaining what experience you have or what horses you ride.
		
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I think Koen should post some lovely pics of these amassing horses being ridden


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## JFTDWS (18 January 2014)

AdorableAlice said:



			Bridle.  Your ideals are perhaps more suited to the bridal industry.
		
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Best post ever.


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## Koen (18 January 2014)

JFTD said:



			Best post ever.
		
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Thank you [blush] but I can't take all the credit for that. I have to at least partialy thank spell-check and the whole ipad team.


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## Cortez (18 January 2014)

You know, from reading all the drivel you've written, on this thread and others, I'm beginning to think you've never actually ridden a real horse. The negative scenarios you are describing do exist, unfortunately, but they are not the norm by any means, and the riding you are holding up as "the way" also does not, although you could misquote something like it from certain books - theory is easily trotted out; those of us who can actually do it learn to spot that kind of common aggrandizement on these internet forums. No one had been rude to you here, but you are consistently and aggressively baiting people in order to get a reaction. Go away, you are a troll.


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## Cortez (18 January 2014)

Koen said:



			Thank you [blush] but I can't take all the credit for that. I have to at least partialy thank spell-check and the whole ipad team.
		
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The accolade was not being awarded to YOU. Adorable Alice gets the rosette for being witty and to the point; that's most certainly not a feature of your posts.


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## Bertieb123 (18 January 2014)

Cortez said:



			You know, from reading all the drivel you've written, on this thread and others, I'm beginning to think you've never actually ridden a real horse. The negative scenarios you are describing do exist, unfortunately, but they are not the norm by any means, and the riding you are holding up as "the way" also does not, although you could misquote something like it from certain books - theory is easily trotted out; those of us who can actually do it learn to spot that kind of common aggrandizement on these internet forums. No one had been rude to you here, but you are consistently and aggressively baiting people in order to get a reaction. Go away, you are a troll.
		
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Agree, the thought of 'a little knowledge is dangerous in the wrong hands' springs to mind, let alone the use of spurs etc in the wrong hands, I think most of us are intelligent enough to see through this idiot.


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## Mithras (18 January 2014)

I think probably best to be sympathetic to people like this.  Although it is hard.  Equine therapy can be very useful...


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## s4sugar (18 January 2014)

Mithras said:



			I think probably best to be sympathetic to people like this.  Although it is hard.  Equine therapy can be very useful...
		
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<<  Snort  >>


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## Koen (19 January 2014)

Many of the reactionary responses here of course don't come as a great surprise. The reliance on spurs being so entrenched as they are, resistance to change can only be expected.  For some Im just hoping the sun is indeed over the yardarm.


To bring this up to speed in my opinion governments and governing bodies ike the the FEI should ban the use of spurs. 

It's an unnessesary tool that can and is being abused, even as I write these words. Thats enough for me and every single horse out there. 

Force is not needed to train any animal. Pain is not a tool it's abuse no matter how slight, insidious or expertly applied.

I notice there is exactly the same incalcitrant resistance to the call for the ban of hooks to train elephants (sharp blunt or otherwise) governments in those countries should be doing more.

Horses allow us to train and ride them, is this not enough?


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## Mickyjoe (19 January 2014)

tristar said:



			there's better places than ireland to gain experience, in my australian osteopath's opinion 'its like the dark ages'  and joking apart it is infested with ragwort, sadly
		
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Wow!! Almost as clueless as Koen there. Have you ever even been to Ireland?


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## JFTDWS (19 January 2014)

Koen said:



			Thank you [blush] but I can't take all the credit for that. I have to at least partialy thank spell-check and the whole ipad team.
		
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My ipad understands that bridle is a valid word and doesn't autocorrect it.  Perhaps yours is in need of a software update - rather like yourself, I fear.


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## amandap (19 January 2014)

Koen said:



			Horses don't have "buttons". I wish people would stop using that word, I detest it. If yours does in fact have buttons it's been hopelessly and complicatedly trained to respond to "buttons". "A different spot of about an inch for for collected trot vs medium.........." 

In the days when preferred dressage horses where generally (though there were the few outstanding exceptions, horses like Ahlerich ) heavy plough horses circus trick tactics were the norm as was the extremely heavy use of the spur. Legs pumping and jabbing was seen as acceptable, buttons all over the place like hard labouring steam engines. Far as Im concerned dressage horses today have gone way beyond the combustion engine, if anything and we go with the engineering "button" analogy we are in the digital age of control. Touch screens.

Shifting weight shifting legs not ideal its meant to be effortless. For passage I sit squarely and slightly deeper closing my legs softly being absolutely steady with soft hands, he comes up. No jab with the spur or at the correct buttons, no flapping with the lower leg! For extended trot I sit I relax some my fingers monetarily he opens up and I hold the extent I wish him to extend by its touch and feely then immediately adjusting my fingers.......

It's quite difficult explaining granted I understand that, so in my case if Im exaggerating my apologies. But why oh why all the marching and some in some cases flying riders legs for simple tempe changes! Not only that torso's flopping.....spurs raking up and down. When all you need to do is ask with alternative seat bones. Hips, seat, torso for all intensive purposes completely still but soft holding the tempo with gentle fingers. Like playing the piano, light varying pressure on the keys, fingers.


Anyone know what the waiting aids are?

Spurs are a crutch. So is the double bridle, a horses mouth is a miracle of feeling. And why would you even try and do dressage on a horse with a dead mouth? Try something else like gentle hacking instead just as pleasurable.
		
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I've hashed your post but I do think you have made some interesting points. I am not allowed an opinion on riding though as I don't post pics or even ride to a standard that requires passage etc. However it seems to me horses will respond to any cues they are trained to respond to! So, much tack may not be essential but training has evolved from/along with tack used initially for control, so other ways have rarely been considered an option. Also, fashion and the image produced is a big part in tack use I think.

I'd love to know what the "waiting aids" are.


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## AdorableAlice (19 January 2014)

amandap said:



			I've hashed your post but I do think you have made some interesting points. I am not allowed an opinion on riding though as I don't post pics or even ride to a standard that requires passage etc. However it seems to me horses will respond to any cues they are trained to respond to! So, much tack may not be essential but training has evolved from/along with tack used initially for control, so other ways have rarely been considered an option. Also, fashion and the image produced is a big part in tack use I think.

I'd love to know what the "waiting aids" are.
		
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Wait - tiny half halts
Weight - loaded seat bone, iron etc.


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## Arizahn (19 January 2014)

Please do not encourage them to visit Ireland. That is all I ask.


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## tristar (19 January 2014)

its pretty bad here in ireland, troytown clinic in kildare  say they are putting down horses every day for owners who cannot afford  to feed them, i am feeding two foals abandoned by their owner with no feed or water twice each day since before christmas,  i am told that twice before the same people had horses on their land which died fom neglect, what can i say to 'encourage' them to not take on any more animals arizahn.?
yet still they keep churning them out, year after year


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## maggiehorse (19 January 2014)

Koen said:



			I can't agree. 

Spurs are totally unnecessary in my opinion. 

I believe the rules that spurs are a mandatory requirement for example at the top levels of dressage a complete nonsense. The rules should be changed this is 2014 not the late Middle Ages. The opposite should be in place. Spurs should not be tolerated at all.

I cant agree "in the right hands etc" they simply don't belong anywhere near a horse. 

I've never watched a dressage competition at the highest international level where I haven't seen spurs routinely abused. This doesn't mean bleeding sides or marks and gauges necessarily. Insidious, continuous use (contact) as an aid is abuse. Same in show jumping at international level. These are apparently "the right hands" ?

In the realms of the amateur rider this sanctioned abuse is widely copied but it honestly doesn't make any difference who is using them or what contrived reasons they have for using them. Their use is abuse.

A properly schooled, properly fed and fit horse should not need "artificial" aids of any kind. Fine tuning high energy feed for the job at hand and keeping a horse fit is the way, no short cuts at the horses expense.

If the horse or even the rider is not up to the job abusing the horse wont help. Understanding the horses character and working with not against it might be more ideal. Truly phlegmatic horses shouldn't be asked to do anything they aren't up for doing. Nor should riders be involved in an activity on a horse if they can't cope with a job that requires high energy.

As far as mentioned here having extremely short legs or being extremely light as a rider are not a reason to use spurs. An educated well schooled rider on a well schooled horse should have no problems with the rider using only seat and hand aids if need be. They should ride horses with more blood and feed accordingly, or accept their limitations.

Horses will move away from a whip and this is useful in training some youngsters, but it should never be used other than a light tap or gesture on or just behind the leg. Horses don't move away from spurs they cant see them to start with its only contact that will force the horse to move forward. It's also not at all constructive to use spurs instead of a whip as described above either on any horse to teach it to move away from the leg if it doesn't already by instinct. 

I can't think of a single good use for spurs, only reasons why they should be banned outright.
		
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yep bunny hugging drivel


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## Koen (20 January 2014)

amandap said:



			I've hashed your post but I do think you have made some interesting points. I am not allowed an opinion on riding though as I don't post pics or even ride to a standard that requires passage etc. However it seems to me horses will respond to any cues they are trained to respond to! So, much tack may not be essential but training has evolved from/along with tack used initially for control, so other ways have rarely been considered an option. Also, fashion and the image produced is a big part in tack use I think.

I'd love to know what the "waiting aids" are.
		
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Someone with an enquiring mind at least amongst the rabble. Hash first ask later seems to be a general attitude on internet forums, it's the anonymity Dutch courage it allows. Why the need I have no clue.

Being open is a very important state of mind in any discipline, though. 

Thankfully many good riders are open to change, this has of course had positive benefits for the welfare of our horses over the years too, not only for success in the saddle. Contrary to what some readers might believe nothing is set in stone. I like to think of myself as open, and not just some of the time but all of the time. After all what we are doing today is never what we will be doing ten, twenty years hence, we advance hopefully. 

As you say training methods evolve as has the use of tack. 

Certainly there will always be areas where the current doesn't reach where the flotsam and jetsam accumulates and stagnation is a way of being. Strap on the old martingale stick on a curbed bit and a pair of spurs and you're all set for any days activity.

A particularly pertinent example on this topic of change was the recent and very unsuccessful transition of a top scoring dressage horse from one rider to another at the pinnacle of the combinations success. What ever one might have thought about training methods used to get the horse to the pinnacle of success under its first rider their riding styles were in sharp contrast to those "traditionally" held as appropriate under the second rider. The rapid decline in the horses abilities was the result.

This brought sharply into focus for many trainers and riders the change horses are going through themselves. 

Horses bred today for example for dressage are bred with a greater and greater sensitivity and natural expression to be able to compete at the top level. Methods used for their training and riding have to evolve too. This doesn't happen by magic it has to be a conscious effort.  You can't have a modern sport horse with an "old school" trained rider on board, there needs to be harmony and understanding along with the recognition that some riding styles and  equipment are simply no longer appropriate. For me the mandatory requirement of riding with spurs is redundant. 

The FEI should at least make this optional for a time along with eventually the double bridal. Neither being necessary IMO at any level.

Pictures. Pictures are a flash moment and dont always tell much other than the general way of going like outline, though videos are always useful IMO. 
Of course you are allowed opinions without pictures! This is a forum where I think it's safe to assume a free exchange of ideas is encouraged. 

The waiting aids wont be or even aren't I would say a great mystery to anyone having ridden horses with a lot of blood in them, they almost come spontaneously if not things are generally a bit of a disaster. 
Im assuming a fair number of riders in the UK ride like this already, not in dressage though but certainly in some aspects of showing, eventing and show jumping. On the continent especially in Germany this isn't the case for most dressage riders it's not the taught method. Waiting aids are simply aids that are applied once and not applied again until you need a change transitioned with perhaps a barely perceptible half halt, soft hands and seat, supple back. No constant asking with the legs at every stride, for impulsion, instruction, bend and rhythm, usually accompanied with a very stiff rigid spine, deep seat and hands that are relatively speaking taking much greater weight. 

Im not saying this is how everyone should ride or passing judgement on anyone who doesn't its just part of riding horses which are very much more sensitive than they used to be, the example being the case of the contemporary dressage sport horse. Spurs are superfluous at best and pain and angst inducing at worst. To be successfully ridden otherwise these horses have to be desensitised and forced into submission /discipline, not a happy horse. Sadly some of the most popular horses in the eyes of audiences and some judges have been horses in the latter category.


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## Alec Swan (20 January 2014)

Koen,  with such a depth of knowledge,  and practical experience,  are we to assume that you ride at International level?  Perhaps with such passion and such obvious experience,  you teach,  would I be right?

I don't ride,  so Im not in a position to contradict you,  but having owned and trained a dog or two,  and having read of your claimed for canine experiences,  I would wonder if you may just be allowing your imagination to run away with you.

Alec.


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## Mithras (20 January 2014)

Koen is just doing that bored Dutch male thing of being facetious and what passes for controversial to get attention.  Its probably best ignored.  

What I want to know is, are they a duifje or een schatje?  At least the male version, as they claim to be.  tbh sounds more like duifje to me.


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## Hedwards (20 January 2014)

I wear spurs (blunt) when i'm schooling my gelding, not for speed/impulsion, but because I want to refine my aids, he is a lazy ****** by nature, and so it saves me nagging him constantly with my leg, i can ask him to move away from my leg with very slight pressure from the spur. I dont wear them for jumping/hacking/xc etc. they work for me, and i will continue to use them. I've never done any damage to him.

Oh... and he's a blood horse, a thoroughbred (who has a history of stomach ulcers so i wouldnt dream of adding oats/racehorse mix to his diet!!!!)


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## AdorableAlice (20 January 2014)

Mithras said:



			Koen is just doing that bored Dutch male thing of being facetious and what passes for controversial to get attention.  Its probably best ignored.  

What I want to know is, are they a duifje or een schatje?  At least the male version, as they claim to be.  tbh sounds more like duifje to me.
		
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I can't wait any longer, English please.


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## slormesher (20 January 2014)

Definatly all for spurs .... if used correctly!! Inexperienced riders who are yet to have lower leg control should stay away but experienced riders with the control and knowledge of why and how spurs are used should continue to use them. Horses skin is much thicker than ours so blunt spares and slight pressure only encourages not harms the horse. mis-use of them should be acknowledged but compared to the amount of people using spares and how many miss use them doesnt even compare. People who are so against them and claim for them to be horse welfare need to go back and research the use and purpose of spurs because they are clearly delooded and are completly missing the point!! 

I ride my mare with spurs for all diciplines except hacking to encourage her and to apply the correct aid so i dont have to keep asking and making matters worse. I have never cut or grazed my horse and i plan on keeping it that way!!


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## ribbons (20 January 2014)

Koen, possibly your spell check taking over again  but what the hell does "all intensive purposes" mean.
Are you trying to say " all intents and purposes" 

I have a funny feeling you are doing a lot of quoting from things you've read.(not very well either)

It amuses me when people do this, thinking no one else has read the same things. Some of the things you've said are almost word for word, other people's opinions that they have put in print.

Carry on though, it's quite fun watching you trying to change a bit here and there to avoid detection, and then throwing in some absolute hilarious grammar and spelling blunders.


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## Piglet (21 January 2014)

Having just dipped back into this post, I thought I has better reply to Koen as it would be rude not to!!!  I assume your comments are a wind up? If I fed my horse straight oats or race horse mix as he/she suggested, I would either be bucked off or still been bolted with and en route to the Northern most part of Scotland!!!  What a daft and ignorant comment to make, as I feed my horse feed that is suitable to the amount of work I do, he is not a competition horse and as such doesn't need such high energy giving food.  I cannot give him anything with cereals or sugar in as that would be cruel to him as his temperament cannot take that sort if food, I have finally managed to get him a diet which gives him controlled energy but keeps him sensible.


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## tristar (21 January 2014)

i do not wish to upset or wind up anyone.

i feed all mine on straight oats and sugar beet,  as far  as i can see  its a fallacy about oats winding up horses, they  contain good fibre and other substances which are good for horses mentally, and they release energy slowly so horses are not subjected to blood sugar spikes and dips (complex carbohydrates)  spelling!!  especially if hay is fed at regular times as well.

i seen enough almost exploding dressage horses to form the conclusion that its not what i want to see, much prefer horses who look  soft muscled, on the aids in such a way that they can show almost relaxation and can maintain a consistant metranome  like rhythm, from which comes real collection, tension being the enemy, the horse with tension cannot put itself at the riders disposal ,  which is what true collection is, energy released not forced.


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## Alec Swan (21 January 2014)

tristar said:



			i do not wish to upset or wind up anyone.

i feed all mine on straight oats and sugar beet,  as far  as i can see  its a fallacy about oats winding up horses, .......

........
		
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Correct.  As a grain feed,  oats were designed for horses and sheep,  in my view,  and neither have ever been harmed by such a diet!

Alec.


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## Koen (22 January 2014)

tristar said:



			i do not wish to upset or wind up anyone.

........ the horse with tension cannot put itself at the riders disposal ,  which is what true collection is, energy released not forced.
		
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You don't have a choice, at least not if you think spurs should be binned. 

I 100% agree about tension there are enough horses at Grand Prix level displaying forced tension.  A good example, and strangely enough highly acclaimed (score wise and in the general publics minds) was this lovely mare (see video). Tail swishing with each and every jab of the spur. A horrible sight IMO. A "horse with great expression" but at what cost.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYhYwyJYNFI

It has to be said the exception is that a horse in Piaffe certainly needs a certain amount of asked for controlled tension certainly at the level required to come into any kind of contention at todays levels. The horse cannot achieve this without high levels of energy unless there is abuse of spurs.


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## Billy the kid (22 January 2014)

Koen said:



			You don't have a choice, at least not if you think spurs should be binned. 

I 100% agree about tension there are enough horses at Grand Prix level displaying forced tension.  A good example, and strangely enough highly acclaimed (score wise and in the general publics minds) was this lovely mare (see video). Tail swishing with each and every jab of the spur. A horrible sight IMO. A "horse with great expression" but at what cost.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYhYwyJYNFI

It has to be said the exception is that a horse in Piaffe certainly needs a certain amount of asked for controlled tension certainly at the level required to come into any kind of contention at todays levels. The horse cannot achieve this without high levels of energy unless there is abuse of spurs.
		
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I had a funny feeling it was going to be Blue Hors Matine in this vid before i even opened it!

Im not going to bother typing what i think of you. This horse and rider are one of the greats!! Some horses tail swish anyway, spur or no spur. Must be easy sitting slagging off all the best horses and riders out there. 

Does Blue Hors Matine look abused to you?? Really??


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## babymare (22 January 2014)

Billy kid. I thought same as you before opening link ! Koen may i just ask what level do you ride out?


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## PaddyMonty (22 January 2014)

Please please please dont get spurs banned. As a bloke my shiny stainless steel roller ball spurs are the only bling that I have.


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## Billy the kid (22 January 2014)

PaddyMonty said:



			Please please please dont get spurs banned. As a bloke my shiny stainless steel roller ball spurs are the only bling that I have.
		
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Ha ha ha, 'man bling!' love it!


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## Mickyjoe (22 January 2014)

tristar said:



			there's better places than ireland to gain experience, in my australian osteopath's opinion 'its like the dark ages'  and joking apart it is infested with ragwort, sadly
		
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And actually Tristar, If you're referring to the same Australian Osteopath that I know, I don't think she would be too impressed to have you put such negative words in her mouth on a public forum. I think I might direct her to this thread..

Koen, I would be fascinated to see some videos of you riding if you would care to share? Usually people like yourself, who I call the closed mind and open mouth brigade tend to be all talk with nothing to back it up. 
So... would you care to share?


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## PaddyMonty (22 January 2014)

Billy the kid said:



			Ha ha ha, 'man bling!' love it!
		
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perhaps thats the way forward. I dont use spurs, i have 'man bling'


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## babymare (22 January 2014)

mmmmm i have a feeling that if koen had seen me riding my mare she would have had me hanged for Rollkur, has Baby always went behind vertical somewhat, with out thinking why she did as a few people did with nasty comments included. once people understood she was actually blind in bottom of both eyes so brought her nose further to chest to see and i had to ride with a steady but gentle contact to give her confidenc (but couldnt fuss lenghtening/shortening reins as she panicked )so had to move my hands back and forth to keep contact they were gobsmacked. A little understanding goes along way


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## Billy the kid (22 January 2014)

PaddyMonty said:



			perhaps thats the way forward. I dont use spurs, i have 'man bling'
		
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Definitely the way forward! 

Also i dont ride with a whip; a use my 'riding wand' and carry fluffy bunnies with me at all times.


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## babymare (22 January 2014)

Billy the kid may i invoice you for  a new laptop keyboatd as i have just spat coffee al over mine reading that pmsl


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## Billy the kid (22 January 2014)

babymare said:



			Billy the kid may i invoice you for  a new laptop keyboatd as i have just spat coffee al over mine reading that pmsl 

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Oh Gosh!! Ooops!! Yes send me the invoice over..... ill send you a free ' super fluffy bunny' aswell as a good will gesture:wink4:


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## babymare (22 January 2014)

oh really!!! A fluffy bunny as well ??? oh my you are to kind


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## Billy the kid (22 January 2014)

babymare said:



			oh really!!! A fluffy bunny as well ??? oh my you are to kind 

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Not just any fluffy bunny.... a 'SUPER fluffy bunny' they are all the rage now. You will feel no need to ever use spurs again once you see this bunny!


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## Mithras (22 January 2014)

AdorableAlice said:



			I can't wait any longer, English please.
		
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Well you can't translate slang in another language that accurately, and duifje can be used to be a little rude and derogatory especially in certain parts of NL.  So lets just say we could apply it here to describe someone who sits at home watching other people do things successfully and criticising them.  Whereas the schatje would be out there, actually doing it, and being admired.

I'm surprised that "Koen", als een binnenlander, didn't comment on it, since most of his arguments seem to be based on buitenlanders being ignorant.

In the Netherlands, one of the main problems, as in Germany, is lack of turnout and indeed even where there is turnout, its difficult to get the large varied pastures incorporating natural features to develop bone strength and health in the young horse.  Such as hillsides.  That is one of the few advantages that the UK has over The Netherlands.  Another is the great tradition of hunting, as opposed to riding in a manege all the time.  That's why "English" grooms are sought out all over Europe - they tend to have a wider and more practically based experience.  I found it ironic that "Koen" assumed everyone on here was an amateur rider, when he has no competition record himself, even at amateur level.


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## LaMooch (22 January 2014)

I liked to see video of Koen riding her oat fed highly trained dressage horse with no spurs or whip


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## Koen (23 January 2014)

Now compare that video of Matine to this one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbwIXEEo9-A

Getting the point? Waiting aids?


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## maccachic (23 January 2014)

I see spurs as an aid used to sharpen up a horse who needs on the odd occassion it I don't think they should be used everyday / every comp.  Ive used them once in the last 5 years.  And they were the blunt / rounded ones.

I haven't ridden with a whip in years after having a horse who's trust had been lost via a previous rider - he taught me I don't need one.

I don't ride to high level - more mid range.  I get my kicks out of bringing on young horses (unbroken / off the track).

I also feed oats and alfalfa


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## shortstuff99 (23 January 2014)

Koen said:



			Now compare that video of Matine to this one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbwIXEEo9-A

Getting the point? Waiting aids?
		
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I love this as an example when Edward Gal trains his horses in urm... Not 
the most harmonious way shall we say. Which is probably worse than using spurs! Even though everyone seems to think he is a genius even though other users of the system get slated!


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## Koen (23 January 2014)

shortstuff99 said:



			I love this as an example when Edward Gal trains his horses in urm... Not 
the most harmonious way shall we say. Which is probably worse than using spurs! Even though everyone seems to think he is a genius even though other users of the system get slated!
		
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And you know this for a fact do you?!


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## Koen (23 January 2014)

My apologies for the outburst. Seems poney club is out.

Was rather shocked at the advert on H&H, "broken your hunter" try this one.

The rather shallow cry of "bunny hugger" comes to mind.


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## Koen (23 January 2014)

To be precise.

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/clas...grove/have-you-broken-your-hunter-414867.html

This disgusts me. At least the poor ****** is not subjected to spurs as far as I can see.


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## Koen (23 January 2014)

Yea gods how this was allowed I've no idea. The bleeding kartoffel on board and all.


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## shortstuff99 (23 January 2014)

Koen said:



			And you know this for a fact do you?!
		
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Here you go http://www.writingofriding.com/in-the-media/edward-gal-uses-rollkur/ make of this as you will


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## Elsiecat (23 January 2014)

Koen said:



			To be precise.

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/clas...grove/have-you-broken-your-hunter-414867.html

"Have you broken your hunter"

[/IMG]
		
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Erm it's quite clearly tongue in cheek.. Basically saying "if theres a reason your hunter can't be hunted - BUY THIS ONE" 
And I'm guessing they've used that strapline due to the time of year.


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## Cortez (23 January 2014)

Koen said:



			Yea gods how this was allowed I've no idea. The bleeding kartoffel on board and all.
		
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I realise that English may not be your first language, but what on earth are you trying to say???


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## Mithras (23 January 2014)

Cortez said:



			I realise that English may not be your first language, but what on earth are you trying to say???
		
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I've got a feeling that Koen correlates the somewhat tasteless advert title with the fact the horse is jumping a wire fence.  Which of course it isn't.

Endless hours of amusement...beats uitzending gemist.

Meneer Gal is of course the epitomy of everything that Koen doth preach.


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## AdorableAlice (23 January 2014)

Elsiecat said:



			Erm it's quite clearly tongue in cheek.. Basically saying "if theres a reason your hunter can't be hunted - BUY THIS ONE" 
And I'm guessing they've used that strapline due to the time of year.
		
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Spot on.  The lady selling that horse has forgotten more than Koen is likely to know having produced horses that jump at international level.  There are plenty of broken hunters given the bottomless going this winter is providing.


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## Cheshire Chestnut (23 January 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			Yawn ,
You do want with you're horse and we'll do what we want with ours .
		
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Well said. Appears to be too many people in the horse world that butt in with their 'I'm always right' opinions, stamping all over anyone else's way of riding and branding them as 'cruel' when it doesn't correspond with their ideas.

Just go ride your own horse bareback with no whip, spurs or bridle and just get on with it. Leave everyone else to do their own thing. Thanks!


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## Mithras (23 January 2014)

Cortez said:



			I realise that English may not be your first language, but what on earth are you trying to say???
		
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I think English is their first language.  What makes you think it isn't?


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## Koen (24 January 2014)

I am Dutch/English but thats no ones biusness by my own. Its Koen, Koo-en Not Co-en. 99% chance the English cannot pronounce Dutch.

Of course the horse is not jumping a barbed wire fence!

The advert is in extreme poor taste. Horses are not toys to be tossed aside when they're broken for another one.

People seem more intersted in me my grammar family history and and and than the subject at hand. Im willing to bet thats because they have no other way of supporting their piss poor arguments.


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## Alec Swan (24 January 2014)

Koen said:



			.......

People seem more intersted in me my grammar family history and and and than the subject at hand. Im willing to bet thats because they have no other way of supporting their piss poor arguments.
		
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Whilst it's often true that those who seem to be running out of steam,  tend to offer insults,  and you'll accept that you too have availed yourself of this weakness,  the one question which I don't understand,  and perhaps you can answer,  is why if you're so convinced that the bulk of top class riders use spurs and incorrectly,  why we haven't seen your name in lights as having a preferred or improved method of achieving an end result.

It's a pointless exercise telling people that they are wrong,  the real trick is to demonstrate your point.  Are you able to show the world just how right you are and how wrong they are,  and by practical demonstration?

Alec.


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## millikins (24 January 2014)

Alec, I think Koen already has. Spurs are the work of the devil but Rolkur's "waiting aids". Double bridles, quick call the RSPCA, but whips, no problemo. And Koen, you've been insulting all and sundry with nearly every thread, what goes around......


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## Goldenstar (24 January 2014)

Koen said:



			I am Dutch/English but thats no ones biusness by my own. Its Koen, Koo-en Not Co-en. 99% chance the English cannot pronounce Dutch.

Of course the horse is not jumping a barbed wire fence!

The advert is in extreme poor taste. Horses are not toys to be tossed aside when they're broken for another one.

People seem more intersted in me my grammar family history and and and than the subject at hand. Im willing to bet thats because they have no other way of supporting their piss poor arguments.
		
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You have an extremely unpleasant way of expressing yourself .
Why on earth do you make the assumption that people who have "broken " their hunter cast it aside ? 
If we are unfortunate enough to " break " a hunter we get our cheque book and go and find another that certainly does not mean that the "broken " one is not getting the best care and attention at home .


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## LaMooch (24 January 2014)

Horse is not jumping barbed wire. If you look at picture careful its jumping a fixed spread put in the fence line.


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## Elbie (24 January 2014)

What I don't get is, the thread is "Spurs or no spurs". Koen has said that spurs should be banned, however, when comparing 2 videos both riders are wearing spurs? Shouldn't we be shown a video of a rider performing high level dressage moves NOT wearing spurs?


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## fburton (24 January 2014)

Koen said:



			The advert is in extreme poor taste. Horses are not toys to be tossed aside when they're broken for another one.
		
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It's in _slightly_ poor taste, imo. (It's subjective.) You have to factor in the English sense of humour. I don't see the advert as implying the typical reader would _really_ believe horses are mere objects to be discarded when injured.


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## Mithras (24 January 2014)

Koen said:



			I am Dutch/English but thats no ones biusness by my own. Its Koen, Koo-en Not Co-en. 99% chance the English cannot pronounce Dutch.
		
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Actually, to explain how your username is pronounced in English, you should write "Ku-hn" or "Koohn".  With a very short "ooh" sound in the middle.  Otherwise you will have them pronouncing an English "e" sound in it.  I was puzzled, because your English usage shows no Dutch traits.



Koen said:



			People seem more intersted in me my grammar family history and and and than the subject at hand. Im willing to bet thats because they have no other way of supporting their piss poor arguments.
		
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Its because you haven't engaged with your audience and your content is defective.  Don't blame the majority, look for the fault in yourself.  And be thankful that your faults should be pointed out to you!


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## Auslander (24 January 2014)

Koen - I've read the thread, and I am trying to understand you, but I'm confused about your perception of the purpose of spurs. You seem to suggest that they are used to force an unwilling horse to go forward, and that is not my understanding of why we use them. I have always ridden in spurs, and can say with my hand on my heart, that I have never used them to make a horse go forward.  I use them to refine the aid for certain movements, in order that the horse is clear about what I am asking. A highly trained horse is a sensitive beast, and it is very easy, without a way of refining the aid you give, to ask for one thing, and get another, purely because the large surface area of the the lower leg produces an imprecise aid, whereas a light touch with a spur in a specific area provides a clear indication to the horse that you are asking for a specific movement. i don't profess to be anything particularly special, but i have ridden at a reasonable level, and had the opportunity to ride some top level GP dressage horses. My own horse is a former PSG horse, with all the GP moves installed, so I have a reasonable understanding of how a horse should go, and how to ride the more advanced movements. I couldn't ride a canter zig zag on my horse without spurs, because he is very much a "buttons" horse. If I touch the correct button with my spur, he responds precisely, staying relaxed and through. If I try to ride movements without spurs, he gets tense and strong and frustrated, because he is not accustomed to being ridden in a more agricultural way.  He ALWAYS lets me know if he is unhappy, sometimes in spectacular fashion, so i am pretty confident that he would tell me if me riding him in spurs was a problem for him.


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## ChesnutsRoasting (25 January 2014)

Koen said:



			I am Dutch/English but thats no ones biusness by my own. Its Koen, Koo-en Not Co-en. 99% chance the English cannot pronounce Dutch.

Of course the horse is not jumping a barbed wire fence!

The advert is in extreme poor taste. Horses are not toys to be tossed aside when they're broken for another one.

People seem more intersted in me my grammar family history and and and than the subject at hand. Im willing to bet thats because they have no other way of supporting their piss poor arguments.
		
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Look, the British Nation is far superior to Holland in terms of language and common sense. Get over your inferiority complex and focus on your obvious cannabis addiction - a common side effect is paranoia.


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## Alec Swan (25 January 2014)

blazingsaddles said:



			Look, the British Nation is far superior to Holland in terms of language and common sense. Get over your inferiority complex and focus on your obvious cannabis addiction - a common side effect is paranoia.
		
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I love you,  it's true!!  To date,  the post of the year!! 

Any nation which spawns a child who sticks his finger in a dyke,  in the hope of anything worthwhile, has to be questionable,  at best.  Then there's all those sodding tulips,  and the place is so flat,  and the cheese is a con,  it's filled with holes,  God I could go on.  

Mind you,  there were one or two of them who were fairly handy with a paint brush  weren't there?  But then to counter that,  they gave us Van Moyden,  and what did he gives us?  The Fens,  and a strange set of inbred (sorry,  line-bred) bods.  

On balance,  I'm with you! :wink3:

Alec.


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## tristar (25 January 2014)

what the hell are buttons, are there also buttonholes ?   riding in an agricultural way? blimey that's a new one,  and how  the hell does one put words in someone else's mouth, mickeyjoe,????? are you calling me a liar? because you are dead wrong matey!!!!!  and please feel free to direct who you want, where you want!!!! because  i am in no doubt he would be only too willing to tell you himself and support his opinion with casenotes!!!!!!


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## Mithras (25 January 2014)

I think Koen is a wonderful creation sorry character and I rather liked the "riding in an agricultural way" expression - I might use it one day!


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## Koen (26 January 2014)

Mithras said:



			I think Koen is a wonderful creation sorry character and I rather liked the "riding in an agricultural way" expression - I might use it one day!
		
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Sorry I can't give you permission as its not something I wrote. I couldn't possibly read all the posts far too much nonsense so don't know who you would need to be quoting either.

For the rest on this page if it's about sport horses well yes the Dutch certainly are ahead of the field, in fact even the Belgians are compared to the UK along with Ireland Germany France and etc. 

Its not my intention to further this rational inferiority complex because its not the topic of conservation, but it does make it clear where the general attitude has its roots.

****** me why the British cant breed a decent dressage horse I don't care very much, keeps the Dutch and Germans in business.


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## Patterdale (26 January 2014)

Alec Swan said:



			I have to ask Koen,  but do you have a relative who's also an authority on Ragwort?

Alec.
		
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*snort*



Koen said:



			It has to be said the exception is that a horse in Piaffe certainly needs a certain amount of asked for controlled tension certainly at the level required to come into any kind of contention at todays levels. The horse cannot achieve this without high levels of energy unless there is abuse of spurs.
		
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I start to train piaffe with a piaffe whip on the ground. How do YOU train piaffe, Koen?



Alec Swan said:



			Any nation which spawns a child who sticks his finger in a dyke,  in the hope of anything worthwhile, has to be questionable,  at best.  Then there's all those sodding tulips,  and the place is so flat,  and the cheese is a con,  it's filled with holes,  God I could go on.
		
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Alec! :eek3:


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## Auslander (26 January 2014)

tristar said:



			what the hell are buttons, are there also buttonholes ?   riding in an agricultural way? blimey that's a new one,  and how  the hell does one put words in someone else's mouth, mickeyjoe,????? are you calling me a liar? because you are dead wrong matey!!!!!  and please feel free to direct who you want, where you want!!!! because  i am in no doubt he would be only too willing to tell you himself and support his opinion with casenotes!!!!!!
		
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Not replying to the ranty bit, but it was me who mentioned "buttons" and "agricultural". If you've ever ridden a really highly schooled horse, you will realise that you need to apply the aids for specific movements in a precise way, in a specific area. It is similar to pushing a button, hence the oft-used expression. 
And riding in an agricultural way - kicking and pulling.

Seems pretty clear to me!


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## Auslander (26 January 2014)

Koen said:



			Sorry I can't give you permission as its not something I wrote. I couldn't possibly read all the posts far too much nonsense so don't know who you would need to be quoting either.

For the rest on this page if it's about sport horses well yes the Dutch certainly are ahead of the field, in fact even the Belgians are compared to the UK along with Ireland Germany France and etc. 

Its not my intention to further this rational inferiority complex because its not the topic of conservation, but it does make it clear where the general attitude has its roots.

****** me why the British cant breed a decent dressage horse I don't care very much, keeps the Dutch and Germans in business.
		
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I think that - having made such a fuss, you could at least do people the courtesy of reading all the posts that YOU provoked. i'd certainly like an answer to mine!


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## Mickyjoe (26 January 2014)

tristar said:



			what the hell are buttons, are there also buttonholes ?   riding in an agricultural way? blimey that's a new one,  and how  the hell does one put words in someone else's mouth, mickeyjoe,????? are you calling me a liar? because you are dead wrong matey!!!!!  and please feel free to direct who you want, where you want!!!! because  i am in no doubt he would be only too willing to tell you himself and support his opinion with casenotes!!!!!!
		
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Firstly, Im not your "matey" and secondly I find it bizarre that someone who's professional business is equine osteopathy would base themselves in a country halfway around the world to practice if their opinion was that it was in the "dark ages". Thirdly.. having casenotes detailing such a sweeping statement is also weird, unless he only practices on horses from those elements of society who are sure as hell not representative of the responsible,  professional irish horse circles I know. Of course there is bad horse care in Ireland as there also is in the UK and indeed Australia, but to suggest as a nation that we are in the dark ages is highly offensive to responsible irish horse people.
Oh and it's not the same person by the way.. the person I know is a woman..


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## Koen (27 January 2014)

Having just been asked to vote the H&H forum "best social network" title for 2014 in the Equestrian Social Media Awards Im left a bit puzzled. It has put me in a very good mood, though. In fact I laughed out loud I found it so funny.

Far too much sentimental clap trap and Nationalism to make it worthy of that title. Moderation also appears to be completely absent besides for the Auto Moderation of words that actually would seem highly pertinent in this thread,  primarily "what the ****".

Threads being hijacked and completely trashed by a hard core of extremely sad individuals desperate for attention all makes for not a very social network.

My personal opinions on the use of spurs is clear. Their sanctioned use in the world of equestrian sport and in some their mandatory use needs an urgent rethink 2014. 

This right to bear arms type attitude is appalling and I would like to think it's not a British disease but on the basis of the sentiment behind a great deal of the "arguments" here Im not entirely sure that it isn't.

With the increased international based nature of our sport the welfare of the horse everywhere comes before any single insular, nationalistic sentiment and so it should. 

Sanctioning the use of spurs under the FEI causes indirect and in some cases direct abuse. This should end. The degree of abuse is not a topic of debate.


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## LaMooch (27 January 2014)

If you read your terms and conditions then it states this forum is not moderated all the time. That's what the report buttons for.


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## Auslander (27 January 2014)

Koen said:



			Having just been asked to vote the H&H forum "best social network" title for 2014 in the Equestrian Social Media Awards Im left a bit puzzled. It has put me in a very good mood, though. In fact I laughed out loud I found it so funny.

Far too much sentimental clap trap and Nationalism to make it worthy of that title. Moderation also appears to be completely absent besides for the Auto Moderation of words that actually would seem highly pertinent in this thread,  primarily "what the ****".

Threads being hijacked and completely trashed by a hard core of extremely sad individuals desperate for attention all makes for not a very social network.

My personal opinions on the use of spurs is clear. Their sanctioned use in the world of equestrian sport and in some their mandatory use needs an urgent rethink 2014. 

This right to bear arms type attitude is appalling and I would like to think it's not a British disease but on the basis of the sentiment behind a great deal of the "arguments" here Im not entirely sure that it isn't.

With the increased international based nature of our sport the welfare of the horse everywhere comes before any single insular, nationalistic sentiment and so it should. 

Sanctioning the use of spurs under the FEI causes indirect and in some cases direct abuse. This should end. The degree of abuse is not a topic of debate.
		
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Oh for goodness sake. Have you run out of argument or something?

I tried to communicate with you in a reasonable way. I asked questions, rather than just bellowing at you, and I was genuinely interested in your opinion on a particular scenario. You completely ignored me, in favour of having a rant about the forum. I can only conclude that you are only here to wind people up and shout your opinions from the rooftop, without making any effort to engage in ACTUAL discussion. Really annoys me when I make an effort, and get it chucked back in my face.


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## Alec Swan (27 January 2014)

Koen said:



			.......The degree of abuse is not a topic of debate.
		
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I suspect that you may very well be missing the point.  The degree of abuse 'is' the point,  it's just the point.  From a young age you teach a horse to be accepting of man.  Try that on an adult and un-handled animal,  and your going to find it hard work.  The young are more compliant.  The simple fact is that they don't really want to comply with our wishes.

A horse is taught to accept what it doesn't want,  a steel bar in its mouth,  and a human on its back;  a human forcing its will on to the animal,  teaching it to accept that as the human has a greater IQ so it's going to be the eventual winner,  and that the horse may just as well acquiesce,  as it's never going to win.  

Is the above paragraph,  to you,  an acceptable resume of the horse and man relationship?  Is the above description not abuse?  If you accept that man is forcing an animal to comply,  then is that,  however acceptable,  not a form of abuse?  Shouldn't we be keeping horses in fields surrounded by their friends and living their lives as they wish,  rather than as we would have them?  

Abuse is a subjective word and it is generally a matter of 'degree',  in my view.  Are spurs acceptable?  If they're used in a humane manner,  then yes,  of course they are,  just as are the whip and the bit. 

I'm sorry Koen,  but you really are talking out of your arse,  and you're simply extending an argument which isn't really to do with right and wrong,  but one which centres around an opinion,  yours!

Alec.


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## Patterdale (27 January 2014)

What a shame you can't enter into an interesting discussion with others, but instead go off on weird rants. 

It really does your 'cause' no favours. 

People take the time to respond to particular parts of your posts and you completely ignore them, just spouting a load of angry drively instead. It's not very polite.


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## Elsiecat (27 January 2014)

For everytime Koen posts about spurs, I poke my horse with them.
Save the horses from the cruelty Koen.


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## Patterdale (27 January 2014)

Elsiecat said:



			For everytime Koen posts about spurs, I poke my horse with them.
Save the horses from the cruelty Koen.
		
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*snigger*


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## Goldenstar (27 January 2014)

Mithras said:



			I think Koen is a wonderful creation sorry character and I rather liked the "riding in an agricultural way" expression - I might use it one day!
		
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Yes I have that filed too.


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## Koen (28 January 2014)

Auslander said:



			Oh for goodness sake. Have you run out of argument or something?

I tried to communicate with you in a reasonable way. I asked questions, rather than just bellowing at you, and I was genuinely interested in your opinion on a particular scenario. You completely ignored me
		
Click to expand...

Sorry to deflate your grotesquely inflated outrage and sense of importance, but did anyone call you a "drug addict" or a "fraud",  or a blah blah on the basis of an opinion expressed and a question of possible nationality?

Your post got smothered in the same dross spewed left right and centre on this thread as anyone else's with possible genuine intent. Hardly my responsibility take it up with the spewers. You have proved with this post you are no better than they are.

Obviously your "buttons" approach to dressage is not working or you wouldn't be so shrill for a reply. Im sure the world wide web might assist you in that, might I suggest "dressage by numbers". 

Im not obligated to help you out and nor do I feel in any way obliged to either at this point.

Im quite obviously mistaken about the level of the forum. Kindergarten drivel doesn't interest me enough.


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## babymare (28 January 2014)

Kindergarten drivel!!!!! my oh my koen thats rich from you lol. So I will ask again the question I have asked you before and as yet no answer - to what level have you ridden to. Not that im expecting an answer lol


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## Mickyjoe (28 January 2014)

Koen said:



			Sorry to deflate your grotesquely inflated outrage and sense of importance, but did anyone call you a "drug addict" or a "fraud",  or a blah blah on the basis of an opinion expressed and a question of possible nationality?

Your post got smothered in the same dross spewed left right and centre on this thread as anyone else's with possible genuine intent. Hardly my responsibility take it up with the spewers. You have proved with this post you are no better than they are.

Obviously your "buttons" approach to dressage is not working or you wouldn't be so shrill for a reply. Im sure the world wide web might assist you in that, might I suggest "dressage by numbers". 

Im not obligated to help you out and nor do I feel in any way obliged to either at this point.

Im quite obviously mistaken about the level of the forum. Kindergarten drivel doesn't interest me enough.
		
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Hilarious!!!!   Koen you almost had me falling for it earlier,  but you've overcooked the response this time. 

Still, it made for an entertaining thread. So... come on.. who are you really?  A bored regular poster hiding under an alter??


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## LaMooch (28 January 2014)

Kindergarten drivel??????? People have been asking you questions and you refused to respond. Also when you are corrected or pointed what you put is incorrect you go off on a long post that makes no sense to the thread title.


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## Patterdale (28 January 2014)

Mickyjoe said:



			Hilarious!!!!   Koen you almost had me falling for it earlier,  but you've overcooked the response this time.
		
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Yep!


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## Mithras (28 January 2014)

Overspannen.


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## Auslander (28 January 2014)

Koen said:



			Sorry to deflate your grotesquely inflated outrage and sense of importance, but did anyone call you a "drug addict" or a "fraud",  or a blah blah on the basis of an opinion expressed and a question of possible nationality?

Your post got smothered in the same dross spewed left right and centre on this thread as anyone else's with possible genuine intent. Hardly my responsibility take it up with the spewers. You have proved with this post you are no better than they are.

Obviously your "buttons" approach to dressage is not working or you wouldn't be so shrill for a reply. Im sure the world wide web might assist you in that, might I suggest "dressage by numbers". 

Im not obligated to help you out and nor do I feel in any way obliged to either at this point.

Im quite obviously mistaken about the level of the forum. Kindergarten drivel doesn't interest me enough.
		
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Snorts! i guess i'll carry on floundering around! I thought my question was quite reasonable, and I was genuinely interested in getting a thoughtful response. i wasn't after advice, just your thoughts on why some horses respond better to a more precise, pinpointed aid. I actually knew the answer, so I'm not going to beat myself up because you chose to come back at me like a belligerent fool. 

Out of your depth now - aren't you? Prat.

And your little dig about british breeding - totally with you. No decent dressage horses bred in this country...ever...


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## PolarSkye (28 January 2014)

Mithras said:



			Its called having a partnership with your horse.

No, without me riding him in my favoured equipment, he dumps professional riders by stopping and firing them into the jump.  Which is possibly because he only started affiliated jumping at age 13 and needs someone to adapt to him and his various quirks, not the other way round.

Do feel free to pm me if you want a shot round a 1m20 course on him.  I'm pretty confident he is so set in his way of going that no-one, even the most idiotic talking horse novice of a rider, could harm him. 

His nickname on the yard is The Equaliser.
		
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Sounds like Kali .

And, yes, he has been ridden in spurs for the past two years and now that he is respectful of the leg (i.e., a calf twitch), we no longer use them.

I find it very hard to take anyone seriously (Koen) who uses blanket statements/opinions to cover all approaches to horsemanship.  Horses are individuals - as are people.  

P


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## PolarSkye (28 January 2014)

Koen said:



			Sorry to deflate your grotesquely inflated outrage and sense of importance, but did anyone call you a "drug addict" or a "fraud",  or a blah blah on the basis of an opinion expressed and a question of possible nationality?

Your post got smothered in the same dross spewed left right and centre on this thread as anyone else's with possible genuine intent. Hardly my responsibility take it up with the spewers. You have proved with this post you are no better than they are.

Obviously your "buttons" approach to dressage is not working or you wouldn't be so shrill for a reply. Im sure the world wide web might assist you in that, might I suggest "dressage by numbers". 

Im not obligated to help you out and nor do I feel in any way obliged to either at this point.

Im quite obviously mistaken about the level of the forum. Kindergarten drivel doesn't interest me enough.
		
Click to expand...

Are you at all interested in having a rational discussion, or are you just here to spew your personal agenda and antagonize people?

P


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## mik (28 January 2014)

recalcitrant dear


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## PolarSkye (28 January 2014)

Elsiecat said:



			For everytime Koen posts about spurs, I poke my horse with them.
Save the horses from the cruelty Koen.
		
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This made me laugh . . . thanks Elsiecat for lightening the mood .

P


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## gunnergundog (28 January 2014)

Mickyjoe said:



			Hilarious!!!!   Koen you almost had me falling for it earlier,  but you've overcooked the response this time. 

Still, it made for an entertaining thread. So... come on.. who are you really?  A bored regular poster hiding under an alter??
		
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Damn!  You've outed me!


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## Mickyjoe (28 January 2014)

Lol, really? ??


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## gunnergundog (28 January 2014)

Now I've got you guessing!


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## Mickyjoe (28 January 2014)

ROFL!! Well played if so!


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## gunnergundog (28 January 2014)

I wish.....sadly just very bored and feeling a bit mischevious!  Supposed to be doing my end of year accounts.....


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## PaddyMonty (28 January 2014)

gunnergundog said:



			I wish.....sadly just very bored and feeling a bit mischevious!  Supposed to be doing my end of year accounts.....

Click to expand...

Might we help SPUR you on?


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## fburton (28 January 2014)

I just decided to post this on the SPUR of the moment. (Heaven knows why!)


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## Mithras (28 January 2014)

Wil hij niet in Nederlands geschrijven?  Even kleinbeetje...


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## babymare (28 January 2014)

right guys now i have wiped wine i snorted down nose laughing at you(not pretty sight) may i ask what "Recalciitrant"means used in earlier post? Being a lowly english person Im not knowing


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## millikins (28 January 2014)

Well I'm just very hurt that all that advice offered here was just spurned.


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## Koen (29 January 2014)

Auslander said:



			i guess i'll carry on floundering around! 





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Yup.


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## Koen (29 January 2014)

Mithras said:



			Wil hij niet in Nederlands geschrijven?  Even kleinbeetje...
		
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Mithras why is it that you think I need to prove myself to you?

If you want my personal opinion Dutch is one of the most revolting languages known to mankind. I can say that being a Kaaskop. I get throat infections just speaking it for longer than ten minutes, its the rollkuur of languages torture of the vocal chords.

Kut met peeren wat 'n lul. 

Happy schatje? Not turbo enough for you? Go and play in the traffic.


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## Koen (29 January 2014)

Koen said:



			Yup.
		
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And loosen that god awful drop noseband while youre at it. Or are you affraid of a gawping mouth?


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## Mithras (29 January 2014)

Koen said:



			Mithras why is it that you think I need to prove myself to you?

If you want my personal opinion Dutch is one of the most revolting languages known to mankind. I can say that being a Kaaskop. I get throat infections just speaking it for longer than ten minutes, its the rollkuur of languages torture of the vocal chords.

Kut met peeren wat 'n lul. 

Happy schatje? Not turbo enough for you? Go and play in the traffic.
		
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I'll say this in English.  You aint Dutch.  You aint much, but you aint Dutch.  Gaat speelen met jouw duifje.


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## Auslander (29 January 2014)

Koen said:



			Yup.
		
Click to expand...

It's such a shame you have allowed yourself to be overcome with temper, and resorted to insults. It could have been interesting to hear your opines, but now you're just being offensive, and making no attempt to explain why you say what you're saying. 

Not me in the pic btw - but whatever your opinion is, if i'd done what this lady did, and produced a draft x horse to Intermediaire level, I'd be bloody proud of myself. And I wouldn't give a toss about the opinion of someone who doesn't appear to be able to to demonstrate that he can practice what he preaches

As for the drop noseband, actually, it wouldn't be my choice. I ride him in a double quite regularly though - shoot me.


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## Auslander (29 January 2014)

Mithras said:



			I'll say this in English.  You aint Dutch.  You aint much, but you aint Dutch.  Gaat speelen met jouw duifje.
		
Click to expand...

That would explain a lot! I normally have a bit of a thing for Dutch men, but this one leaves me cold!


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## Patterdale (29 January 2014)

Koen said:



			And loosen that god awful drop noseband while youre at it. Or are you affraid of a gawping mouth?
		
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:eek3: 
What an unpleasant individual!


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## Koen (29 January 2014)

Mithras said:



			I'll say this in English.  You aint Dutch.  You aint much, but you aint Dutch.  Gaat speelen met jouw duifje.
		
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Mithras and why do you think Im interested. You dont have a clue what I am or what Im not besides my opinions expressed on the subject.  Im also not interested in what you are or what you're not. Make sense? 

Looking up short sentences on the internet doesn't make you Dutch or even better a Belg LOL.  Though please believe me when I say and I repeat I don't care very much at all what you are.

English will do just fine, its an English language forum. 

Krijg de klere baby.


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## Koen (29 January 2014)

Patterdale said:



			:eek3: 
What an unpleasant individual!
		
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Maybe they are affraid it will lunge forward with its nose and yawn. Whatever it's not a pretty picture. But they may be quite nice, mistaken but nice.


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## Koen (29 January 2014)

Auslander said:



			Not me in the pic btw - but whatever your opinion is, if i'd done what this lady did, and produced a draft x horse to Intermediaire level......
		
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Its difficult to believe this horse is Intermediate (iaire - "less of the jargon please" this is an English forum  The extension might improve when he gets to learn to passage, though. But it's looking very flat and on the forehand imo. That nose band is not helping to do anything but clamp his mouth shut.

Why the picture anyway?

I was a fan of Giddy, Carol Parsons horse, a Shire cross. What's your point?

The breed is not so important, if the horse is willing. If you can help it it helps to start with something easier, even the "throw away" TB plenty of those around.

You can often tell if they are going to go all the way, they have that something extra.


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## Patterdale (29 January 2014)

Koen said:



			Maybe they are affraid it will lunge forward with its nose and yawn. Whatever it's not a pretty picture. But they may be quite nice, mistaken but nice.
		
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I was talking about you :rolleyes3:


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## Koen (29 January 2014)

Whats the horse in the picture got to do with spurs?


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## Auslander (29 January 2014)

Koen said:



			Its difficult to believe this horse is Intermediate (iaire - "less of the jargon please" this is an English forum  The extension might improve when he gets to learn to passage, though. But it's looking very flat and on the forehand imo. That nose band is not helping to do anything but clamp his mouth shut.

Why the picture anyway?

I was a fan of Giddy, Carol Parsons horse, a Shire cross. What's your point?

The breed is not so important, if the horse is willing. If you can help it it helps to start with something easier, even the "throw away" TB plenty of those around.

You can often tell if they are going to go all the way, they have that something extra.
		
Click to expand...

Picture was a BIG mistake, as you've been beastly about a really lovely old horse. It was in reference to the fact that you were scathing about British Breeding, and this is a british bred horse who has done pretty well.

  Not quite sure how you can judge him based on one picture, but hey. He retired from competition due to soundness issues, but has a consistent record at PSG, points at Inter, and was training at GP at home. You may not think this is anything special for a horse of his type, but I do. He's very special to me, and I would defend his honour to the death. Sure the picture isn't perfect, but I like it because his temperament, and willingness to try his heart out shine through. 
Incidentally, this combination were trained by Carol Parsons - she liked him a lot.


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## ester (29 January 2014)

since when was intermediaire jargon?.... are we not to call it prix st george either? or grand prix??

I'm a lost cause, I hack in spurs on a welsh cob who already has oats....... 

damn


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## Koen (29 January 2014)

Auslander said:



			Picture was a BIG mistake, as you've been beastly about a really lovely old horse. It was in reference to the fact that you were scathing about British Breeding, and this is a british bred horse who has done pretty well.

  Not quite sure how you can judge him based on one picture, but hey. He retired from competition due to soundness issues, but has a consistent record at PSG, points at Inter, and was training at GP at home. You may not think this is anything special for a horse of his type, but I do. He's very special to me, and I would defend his honour to the death. Sure the picture isn't perfect, but I like it because his temperament, and willingness to try his heart out shine through. 
Incidentally, this combination were trained by Carol Parsons - she liked him a lot.
		
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I wasn't at all beastly? In fact I was showing concern for the horse.

No you can't always judge from one picture but in this case it is enough surely? He doesn't look happy, spurs would not "refine these aids".

Im not sure this is the best of Britain though if you were wanting British breeding to shine. Sure a lot of these cross breeds are bred in the UK more so than on the continent definitely. It's tradition. They don't make the best dressage horses no, to coin a phrase they are more suited to the "agricultural way" of going or pursuits.

Don't get me wrong I didn't admire Giddy because he was a Shire cross (straight up) but because he gave a bloody good test the one and only time I saw him and had oodles of presence.

Britain didn't and still doesn't honestly have a broad base from which to breed a modern dressage horse, the UK is heavily reliant on imports and probably always will be. You need front and you need elegance which all came from carriage horses on the continent, not shires. The closest thing the UK has is the almost extinct Cleveland bay but even here the action and front is rather limited from what I've seen. Anyway no point in starting from scratch when when there are enough warm bloods to fill an ocean.

Besides now that Charlotte is all the rage amongst judges maybe she can start riding British. Im of the opinion horses are made as much as they are bred for anything.

p.s. (aren't they all? Lovely, special and dear)


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## ester (29 January 2014)

Errr wasn't Giddy a mare???


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## Koen (29 January 2014)

Yes she was. slap hand. yes she is I mean. Slap hand harder


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## Auslander (29 January 2014)

Koen said:



			I wasn't at all beastly? In fact I was showing concern for the horse.

No you can't always judge from one picture but in this case it is enough surely? He doesn't look happy, spurs would not "refine these aids".

Im not sure this is the best of Britain though if you were wanting British breeding to shine. Sure a lot of these cross breeds are bred in the UK more so than on the continent definitely. It's tradition. They don't make the best dressage horses no, to coin a phrase they are more suited to the "agricultural way" of going or pursuits.

Don't get me wrong I didn't admire Giddy because he was a Shire cross (straight up) but because he gave a bloody good test the one and only time I saw him and had oodles of presence.

Britain didn't and still doesn't honestly have a broad base from which to breed a modern dressage horse, the UK is heavily reliant on imports and probably always will be. You need front and you need elegance which all came from carriage horses on the continent, not shires. The closest thing the UK has is the almost extinct Cleveland bay but even here the action and front is rather limited from what I've seen. Anyway no point in starting from scratch when when there are enough warm bloods to fill an ocean.

Besides now that Charlotte is all the rage amongst judges maybe she can start riding British. Im of the opinion horses are made as much as they are bred for anything.

p.s. (aren't they all? Lovely, special and dear)
		
Click to expand...

I can assure you that you have no need to be concerned about this horse. he is, and always has been very much loved, and appreciated - and gives every indication of enjoying his work immensely. He is, despite what you seem to think, very light and has a lot of presence. I don't see an unhappy horse in this picture - just one who is concentrating on his job. He doesn't have the extremely flashy paces of a warmblood, but he is very trainable, very willing, and an out and out trier. He does get strong, and I agree that you can see it in this photo, but to say he is more suited to an agricultural way of riding is a step too far! He far exceeded his original owners expectations of him. Since retiring from competition, he has taught many an aspiring dressage rider the advanced movements, and was selected as a squad horse for the Beiijing Paralympics. He was never going to be a top GP horse, but he has proven himself time and time again to be very very special. Say what you like - he deserves better than to be criticised on an internet forum by someone who has never seen him or ridden him. He may not be Valegro, but what he has achieved, though temperament, trainability and sheer big heartedness is as good an advert for British-breeding as any.


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## Koen (29 January 2014)

Auslander said:



			..... He may not be Valegro, but what he has achieved, though temperament, trainability and sheer big heartedness is as good an advert for British-breeding as any.
		
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Lovely.


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## _GG_ (29 January 2014)

Goodness, I'd rather go and resurrect the pro ragwort threads than read this. It started out as quite an interesting thread but yet again an over zealous OP has become defensive and completely blind to the fact that any chance there was of having any positive influence on others has been lost through offensive and sometimes ridiculous ramblings. 

When will people learn??

Is there a school somewhere that teaches this stuff?


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## ester (29 January 2014)

If there is they obviously don't feed them enough cake


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## AdorableAlice (29 January 2014)

ester said:



			If there is they obviously don't feed them enough cake 

Click to expand...

Ladies, we are missing a trick here.  With access to such a knowledgeable trainer and top competitor that Koen seems to portray surely we should all be flocking to his door with our allegedly crap horses, to share his superior knowledge and talent. Not doubt the lesson fee would be inflated in line with his ego but can we pass this phenomenal opportunity by.

The cake is in the oven.


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## Auslander (29 January 2014)

AdorableAlice said:



			Ladies, we are missing a trick here.  With access to such a knowledgeable trainer and top competitor that Koen seems to portray surely we should all be flocking to his door with our allegedly crap horses, to share his superior knowledge and talent. Not doubt the lesson fee would be inflated in line with his ego but can we pass this phenomenal opportunity by.

The cake is in the oven.
		
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Alf likes cake - and he's distraught about having his breeding and performance slated. He NEEDS a large slice of Victoria Sponge!


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## AdorableAlice (29 January 2014)

Auslander said:



			Alf likes cake - and he's distraught about having his breeding and performance slated. He NEEDS a large slice of Victoria Sponge!
		
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It's chocolate one, I would let him lick the bowl but I couldn't resist.  I made such a good job of it there is no need for it to go in the dishwasher.

Keep it a secret but the cake I am making for our instructor has lots of lovely senna in it, I feel senna might help his problems.


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## Optimissteeq (29 January 2014)

Koen said:



			I wasn't at all beastly? In fact I was showing concern for the horse.

No you can't always judge from one picture but in this case it is enough surely? He doesn't look happy, spurs would not "refine these aids".

Im not sure this is the best of Britain though if you were wanting British breeding to shine. Sure a lot of these cross breeds are bred in the UK more so than on the continent definitely. It's tradition. They don't make the best dressage horses no, to coin a phrase they are more suited to the "agricultural way" of going or pursuits.

Don't get me wrong I didn't admire Giddy because he was a Shire cross (straight up) but because he gave a bloody good test the one and only time I saw him and had oodles of presence.

Britain didn't and still doesn't honestly have a broad base from which to breed a modern dressage horse, the UK is heavily reliant on imports and probably always will be. You need front and you need elegance which all came from carriage horses on the continent, not shires. The closest thing the UK has is the almost extinct Cleveland bay but even here the action and front is rather limited from what I've seen. Anyway no point in starting from scratch when when there are enough warm bloods to fill an ocean.

Besides now that Charlotte is all the rage amongst judges maybe she can start riding British. Im of the opinion horses are made as much as they are bred for anything.

p.s. (aren't they all? Lovely, special and dear)
		
Click to expand...



Hello Koen,
               I'm de-lurking from this thread to ask a genuine question, as I've looked at the picture several times now and I don't see an unhappy horse. Could you please highlight what makes the horse look unhappy in the picture? Do you see tension anywhere for example? If so where?
Like I said this is a genuine question - rather than a wind-up so I'd be interested in your response

Thanks


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## Elbie (29 January 2014)

Koen said:



			Whats the horse in the picture got to do with spurs?
		
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What's posting a video of Edward Gal riding in spurs go to do with supporting your arguement that spurs should be banned? You didn't say much about it but I got the impression you thought it was much nicer than the first video you posted? Doesn't really support the arguement that spurs are bad


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## Auslander (29 January 2014)

Optimissteeq said:



			Hello Koen,
               I'm de-lurking from this thread to ask a genuine question, as I've looked at the picture several times now and I don't see an unhappy horse. Could you please highlight what makes the horse look unhappy in the picture? Do you see tension anywhere for example? If so where?
Like I said this is a genuine question - rather than a wind-up so I'd be interested in your response

Thanks
		
Click to expand...

i know its my horse, and i'm biased - but I can't see it either. He looks like he's concentrating hard, but i like this picture, because his essential Alf-ness shines through!


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## babymare (29 January 2014)

well i for one think photo of Alf is lovely and you rightly should be offended by koens unnessary(sp)  unintelligent remarks. He is obviously given you and many others his very very best and is respected and loved for that


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## Optimissteeq (29 January 2014)

For what it's worth Auslander I think he's lovely as well - and it's a credit to you how far he's gone. I was hoping for a constructive response - to maybe point out what we seem to be missing and maybe gain some credibility back to his responses.
Any how - he's smashing and I love the name, it suits him down to the ground!


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## Auslander (29 January 2014)

Optimissteeq said:



			For what it's worth Auslander I think he's lovely as well - and it's a credit to you how far he's gone. I was hoping for a constructive response - to maybe point out what we seem to be missing and maybe gain some credibility back to his responses.
Any how - he's smashing and I love the name, it suits him down to the ground! 

Click to expand...

I can't take any of the credit! I've only had him a few years - he needed a quieter life, and I jumped at the chance to take him on. He's a lovely boy, can be very sharp and behave like a complete idiot, but he's allowed to be naughty now, after being good all his life!


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## Koen (30 January 2014)

Optimissteeq said:



			Hello Koen,
               I'm de-lurking from this thread to ask a genuine question, as I've looked at the picture several times now and I don't see an unhappy horse. Could you please highlight what makes the horse look unhappy in the picture? Do you see tension anywhere for example? If so where?
Like I said this is a genuine question - rather than a wind-up so I'd be interested in your response

Thanks
		
Click to expand...

Yes Opti yes I can, very easily, you have to realise its a snap shot frozen in time. Can be very instructive or just that a flash moment.

And I will shortly.

The downsides of the internet. 10 000 miles away from the UK approximately and I come here face to face with British yobs excelling like no other yobs can. Not even in the wildest drinking haunts in this part of the world Im in right now do I see the same. Luckily it's also not high on the agenda for British yob holiday makers despite the age of cheap flights, not enough cheap accommodation.


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## Patterdale (30 January 2014)

Koen said:



			Yes Opti yes I can, very easily, you have to realise its a snap shot frozen in time. Can be very instructive or just that a flash moment.

And I will shortly.

The downsides of the internet. 10 000 miles away from the UK approximately and I come here face to face with British yobs excelling like no other yobs can. Not even in the wildest drinking haunts in this part of the world Im in right now do I see the same. Luckily it's also not high on the agenda for British yob holiday makers despite the age of cheap flights, not enough cheap accommodation.
		
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You have to laugh at yet another hardly-intelligible rant in response to a fair question...! :rolleyes3:


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## ester (30 January 2014)

hurry up then  why shortly if you are going to bother at all? The yobs of hho.....


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## PaddyMonty (30 January 2014)

I'm confused. Can I still use my spurs as long as I wear a hat with british yob hob nail boots?


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## ester (30 January 2014)

You know this lot don't mind so long as your bum is still visible in breeches


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## PaddyMonty (30 January 2014)

ester said:



			You know this lot don't mind so long as your bum is still visible in breeches 

Click to expand...

Ah yes sorry. I forgot they're all frisky fillies on here (being polite) Wonder if JFTD still has my bum as her screen saver.


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## ester (30 January 2014)

and Jess from Shwmae worries about stalking.....


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## Koen (30 January 2014)

Patterdale said:



			You have to laugh at yet another hardly-intelligible....
		
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Oh I forgot you never went to school. Try harder sound familiar? No why would it.


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## Jenni_ (30 January 2014)

Koen said:



			If a well schooled horse is not responding to feeding is completely dead to the leg it shouldn't be ridden, there are obviously underlying problems that make it not suitable for riding. Horses aren't born to be ridden, that is to say the fact that it's a horse is not a guarantee it should be ridden.
		
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Absolute rubbish. You could class me as a 'well schooled human athlete' (boxer). Sometimes, it doesn't matter how well I'm fed or how much my coach shouts at me, I just can't be bothered and won't give 100%.

Does that mean I have underlying issues and am not suitable to compete? Not it does not. It means I'm being a lazy sod despite my ability and am not trying hard enough.

Give my coach a cattle prod () and I bet I'd instantly turn into a willing, forward participant.


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## Auslander (30 January 2014)

Koen said:



			Oh I forgot you never went to school. Try harder sound familiar? No why would it.
		
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Koen, I hate to ask such a personal question, but, do you drink?


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## PaddyMonty (30 January 2014)

Jenni_ said:



			Give my coach a cattle prod () and I bet I'd instantly turn into a willing, forward participant.
		
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So should be replace spurs with cattle prods or perhaps electrify the spurs. This thread is getting very confusing.


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## Jenni_ (30 January 2014)

PaddyMonty said:



			So should be replace spurs with cattle prods or perhaps electrify the spurs. This thread is getting very confusing.
		
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I think it is a marvellous idea but we would have to invent a way to not get electrocuted ourself.


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## PaddyMonty (30 January 2014)

Jenni_ said:



			I think it is a marvellous idea but we would have to invent a way to not get electrocuted ourself.
		
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Oh dear, back to school for you too. Rubber and leather do not conduct electrickery so rider will be fine. The 12v battery could be made with different mounting places to correct a horses lack of balance. Sorted.


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## Patterdale (30 January 2014)

Koen said:



			Oh I forgot you never went to school. Try harder sound familiar? No why would it.
		
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I don't understand this either.


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## ribbons (30 January 2014)

Why will you respond to the question posed by opti shortly rather than straight away.

Oh yes, you need time to trawl tinternet for the best way to word your reply. 

You are funny, I'm really enjoying this.


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## abracadabra (30 January 2014)

PaddyMonty said:



			So should be replace spurs with cattle prods or perhaps electrify the spurs. This thread is getting very confusing.
		
Click to expand...

http://www.google.co.uk/patents/US3509693

:biggrin3:


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## Jenni_ (30 January 2014)

PaddyMonty said:



			Oh dear, back to school for you too. Rubber and leather do not conduct electrickery so rider will be fine. The 12v battery could be made with different mounting places to correct a horses lack of balance. Sorted.
		
Click to expand...

I don't wear rubber and leather, I ride in flip flops and shorts!


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## PaddyMonty (30 January 2014)

Jenni_ said:



			I don't wear rubber and leather, I ride in flip flops and shorts!
		
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Does your horse have very long ears and a strange whinny by any chance?


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## JFTDWS (30 January 2014)

PaddyMonty said:



			Ah yes sorry. I forgot they're all frisky fillies on here (being polite) Wonder if JFTD still has my bum as her screen saver.
		
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Me?  Nooooo...

I do have dozens of zoomed in pics on my serial killer wall of doom though


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## babymare (30 January 2014)

Koen you really are the most offensive rude person going. Drunken yobs!!! oh yes it happens in every city in every ******* country by every yob of every country.  Come and see the real England . Im seething. so angry . Wine needed


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## Bertieb123 (30 January 2014)

Koen said:



			Yes Opti yes I can, very easily, you have to realise its a snap shot frozen in time. Can be very instructive or just that a flash moment.

And I will shortly.

The downsides of the internet. 10 000 miles away from the UK approximately and I come here face to face with British yobs excelling like no other yobs can. Not even in the wildest drinking haunts in this part of the world Im in right now do I see the same. Luckily it's also not high on the agenda for British yob holiday makers despite the age of cheap flights, not enough cheap accommodation.
		
Click to expand...

Well at least you have given us credit for something we are good at! Oh but hold on I just realised you are sat in one of those drinking haunts you are talking about, might explain a few things


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## LaMooch (30 January 2014)

babymare said:



			Koen you really are the most offensive rude person going. Drunken yobs!!! oh yes it happens in every city in every ******* country by every yob of every country.  Come and see the real England . Im seething. so angry . Wine needed
		
Click to expand...

got some rose to calm you nerves. Have a good supply as I'm a drunken Yob!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Jenni_ (31 January 2014)

PaddyMonty said:



			Does your horse have very long ears and a strange whinny by any chance?
		
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Yes, and it refuses to be ridden anywhere else but the beach. In warm weather.


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## Mithras (31 January 2014)

Well perhaps Koen from Australasia has some videos of his teaching and demo clinics he could share with us?


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## Piglet (31 January 2014)

Hey guys, do you think Koen is real????  Only wondering as he/she seems to be doing everything he/she can do evoke a response with the insulting, bitchy comments to get a rise as he/she has insulted everyone with his attitude


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## Auslander (31 January 2014)

Piglet said:



			Hey guys, do you think Koen is real????  Only wondering as he/she seems to be doing everything he/she can do evoke a response with the insulting, bitchy comments to get a rise as he/she has insulted everyone with his attitude
		
Click to expand...


I think he is Pale Rider in disguise! 

Fully aware that he is just doing it for ***** and giggles, but hey - interesting input from others on the thread!


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## Elbie (31 January 2014)

Auslander said:



			I think he is Pale Rider in disguise! 

Fully aware that he is just doing it for ***** and giggles, but hey - interesting input from others on the thread!
		
Click to expand...

He doesn't seem to answer the geniune questions, just spouts out insults.

Would be interesting to know what level they ride at. I've never competed higher than prelim and have only worn spurs a couple of times so that's why I've not really commented on my opinion of their use. But that is because I know I don't know what I'm talking about!

I also want to know how the video of Edward Gal supported their case that spurs should be banned...when Gal is wearing spurs. Curiouser and curiouser!


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## Mithras (31 January 2014)

Piglet said:



			Hey guys, do you think Koen is real????  Only wondering as he/she seems to be doing everything he/she can do evoke a response with the insulting, bitchy comments to get a rise as he/she has insulted everyone with his attitude
		
Click to expand...

No, of course not!

But as long as he thinks he is real, that's all that matters.


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## Koen (1 February 2014)

Jenni_ said:



			I think it is a marvellous idea but we would have to invent a way to not get electrocuted ourself.
		
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And why? It would make such entertaining viewing.


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## Koen (1 February 2014)

Elbie said:



			I also want to know how the video of Edward Gal supported their case that spurs should be banned...when Gal is wearing spurs. Curiouser and curiouser!
		
Click to expand...

Study the videos and watch how the spurs are being used in both then compare. Don't draw a conclusion as to who is the better man, but which is the happier horse.

Then discuss, simple really even for an Elbie.

Regards 

The Bot


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## Koen (1 February 2014)

babymare said:



			Koen you really are the most offensive rude person going. Drunken yobs!!! oh yes it happens in every city in every ******* country by every yob of every country.  Come and see the real England . Im seething. so angry . Wine needed
		
Click to expand...

Yobs unite?


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## Koen (1 February 2014)

Mithras said:



			Well perhaps Koen from Australasia has some videos of his teaching and demo clinics he could share with us?
		
Click to expand...

How could you've known! You've just not so disingenuously (a first perhaps) managed to to be spot on. I've just in fact booked my airfare Australia bound.

Unfortunately Im apparently flying something called "Jet Star" this time. It all goes swimmingly until I reach Sydney. Stuffed and wined and then 'Jet Star', just Jet Star. The smirks this ilicited, Im almost sure its going to be fun? Wonder if this is what the Australians maybe call dogging? 

Unless I want to spend five hours feeding cockatoos in the Sydney botanical gardens it's Jet Star. Air travel all gone to the dogs.

I was asked if I would like a drink, insurance, a meal even confirmation of booking, these are the extras!

You would have to be able to say Kung Hey Fat Choi if you were trying to guess where I and rather surprisingly (myself included) am at the moment.

Remarkably fitting (though not a coincidence) this being The Year of the Horse. Hope I made a difference.

(I have spent five hours, well just under three with Cockatoos in the SBotG before it's incredible. What a privilege. They don't fly down and perch on just any ones arm either. You are first given the going over, very careful inspection before you are chosen for jet further scrutiny. Character test, intention tested and means tested then finally performance tested. Huge great white wild birds with an electric brain and beauty. Stunning.
Yes its illegal to feed them, no I didn't flaunt my hotel hamper. I appear in hundreds of tourist snap shots huge birds on both arms as mini train after train of less able visitors were carried past cameras at the ready, many from thia prt of the world)


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## Koen (1 February 2014)

Spurs are unnecessary. Anything that is so commonly and so easily abused and can be abused should be banned, from the top to the bottom, amateur to professional. 

They're gadgets and not legitimate pieces of equipment. Not in 2014.

Learn not to move your feet around when giving aids. Simple really. Might take longer and you might end up in a ditch so what.


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## Patterdale (1 February 2014)

Well, I suppose it's 5 o'clock somewhere......!


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## Auslander (1 February 2014)

Koen said:



			Learn not to move your feet around when giving aids. Simple really. Might take longer and you might end up in a ditch so what.
		
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Interesting! How do you apply different aids for different movements then? I fail to see how you can ride a line of one-time changes without moving your legs.


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## Patterdale (1 February 2014)

Auslander said:



			Interesting! How do you apply different aids for different movements then? I fail to see how you can ride a line of one-time changes without moving your legs.
		
Click to expand...

*snort*


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## ester (1 February 2014)

you do some strange thing with your feet apparently..... I try to keep my feet still tbh...


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## Patterdale (1 February 2014)

Your feet HAVE to move when asking for certain movements.


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## Elbie (1 February 2014)

Koen said:



			Study the videos and watch how the spurs are being used in both then compare. Don't draw a conclusion as to who is the better man, but which is the happier horse.

Then discuss, simple really even for an Elbie.

Regards 

The Bot
		
Click to expand...

Bit rude!

But my point is, your argument was that spurs should be banned entirely. So shouldn't you be showing us a video of a happy horse performing high level dressage with a rider not wearing spurs to support your theory that they are unnecessary?


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## LaMooch (1 February 2014)

Koen reminds me of a Politian where you ask them a question and they answer with a load of rabble that does not respond to the question asked


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## Auslander (1 February 2014)

Ive just been watching that Edward Gal video again - and he keeps moving his blimmin feet! Amateur...


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## JennBags (1 February 2014)

I'm loving this thread, so much entertainment 

Anyone else enjoying it should check out the "Young Horses" thread in TR, Koen is rather entertaining in that one too!

Auslander, great picture of Alf, it definitely wasn't a mistake posting it, he looks super even if he is desperately unhappy


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## ester (1 February 2014)

I know P  

I'm going to go and sit on my pony and wiggle my feet and see what happens, though given the weather we might just get blown along today anyway!


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## Auslander (1 February 2014)

JennBags said:



			Auslander, great picture of Alf, it definitely wasn't a mistake posting it, he looks super even if he is desperately unhappy   

Click to expand...

Nothing like as unhappy as he looked a few minutes ago, when he realised that he wasn't going to be allowed to share his girlfriends dinner!


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## babymare (1 February 2014)

Oh Auslander you are just mean. Just a heartbreaker  x


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## LaMooch (1 February 2014)

Auslander I think your horse is stunning and looks so willing to work. Is that the same horse in the someone watching you thread?


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## Auslander (1 February 2014)

LaMooch said:



			Auslander I think your horse is stunning and looks so willing to work. Is that the same horse in the someone watching you thread?
		
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Yep! Six years older, and pretty much a big pet now - but he can still bust out the moves. Mainly out hacking when he sees another horse - he's a stallion in his head!

He looks like a woolly mammoth at the moment - I need extra long spurs to stab throughout the pelt!


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## LaMooch (1 February 2014)

Auslander said:



			Yep! Six years older, and pretty much a big pet now - but he can still bust out the moves. Mainly out hacking when he sees another horse - he's a stallion in his head!

He looks like a woolly mammoth at the moment - I need extra long spurs to stab throughout the pelt!
		
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He is lovely and careful Koen will have a fit at the extra long spurs bit


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## Auslander (1 February 2014)

LaMooch said:



			He is lovely and careful Koen will have a fit at the extra long spurs bit 

Click to expand...

I know! Thats why i said it 

(I dont hack him in spurs...)


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## millikins (1 February 2014)

Auslander said:



			I know! Thats why i said it 

(I dont hack him in spurs...)

Click to expand...

Are they the ones with really spiky rowels, I think they should be don't you?


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## Koen (2 February 2014)

Auslander said:



			Interesting! How do you apply different aids for different movements then? I fail to see how you can ride a line of one-time changes without moving your legs.
		
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That's your the problem in a nutshell. Forget "a line of one-time changes". Can you ride a simple change of leg across the diagonal without moving your legs?


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## Koen (2 February 2014)

A nice little European Commission initiative, get the use of spurs banned across Europe.


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## Patterdale (2 February 2014)

Koen said:



			That's your the problem in a nutshell. Forget "a line of one-time changes". Can you ride a simple change of leg across the diagonal without moving your legs?
		
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I never move a muscle on a horse, I sit absolutely stock still and rigid, and just 'think' the movements and hope they'll happen :rolleyes3:
Watch any top dressage test, you'll never see moving legs.....

Can you rise to the trot yet?



Koen said:



			And you come cross as desperately thick.

Go out and play before you become fat and ugly.....or is this a matter of closing the door after the horse has bolted?
		
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Very nice....what a lovely individual, can't imagine why no one's taking you seriously...?



Koen said:



			Whooosing sounds above your head?

Is it a plane is it a bird no duh it's your brain going West.

Thats about it amusing the forums kiddies for today. I have one of my own to contend with thank you very much. Though at a year and a half they are somewhat brighter thank the lord. 

Thanks to the dear beloved Im taking a nice break from all that......well almost.
		
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?????
Most of that was completely unintelligible. But do I understand correctly that you have a child? Hope the poor mite never dares disagree with you!

No ones taking you seriously here Koen, because you are rude, unpleasant, and unable to enter a civilised debate or answer the polite questions that people have taken the time to ask earlier in the thread. Perhaps you can learn from this? If you want to influence people, you need to learn to conduct yourself better than you do at present.


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## Auslander (2 February 2014)

Koen said:



			That's your the problem in a nutshell. Forget "a line of one-time changes". Can you ride a simple change of leg across the diagonal without moving your legs?
		
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Yes actually - I can. Can you?

Why should i forget the tempi's?


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## Patterdale (2 February 2014)

Auslander said:



			Yes actually - I can. Can you?

Why should i forget the tempi's?
		
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I am SO SO tempted to post some vids of myself doing tempis, and some passage/piaffe. But I never post pics here, and Koen would probably just say they were from google :rolleyes3:

I strongly suspect that Koen is just mastering canter off the lunge. But still, an armchair critic is always entertaining!


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## Elsiecat (2 February 2014)

Patterdale said:



			I strongly suspect that Koen is just mastering canter off the lunge. But still, an armchair critic is always entertaining! 

Click to expand...

Am I the only person that can't canter on a lunge!? Its impossible!


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## PolarSkye (2 February 2014)

Koen said:



			And you come cross as desperately thick.

Go out and play before you become fat and ugly.....or is this a matter of closing the door after the horse has bolted?
		
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Was that really necessary?

P


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## Elsiecat (2 February 2014)

Koen said:



			Thats about it amusing the forums kiddies for today. I have one of my own to contend with thank you very much. Though at a year and a half they are somewhat brighter thank the lord. 

Thanks to the dear beloved Im taking a nice break from all that......well almost.
		
Click to expand...

And your a mum!? 

It takes all sorts.


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## Auslander (2 February 2014)

Patterdale said:



			I am SO SO tempted to post some vids of myself doing tempis, and some passage/piaffe. But I never post pics here, and Koen would probably just say they were from google :rolleyes3:

I strongly suspect that Koen is just mastering canter off the lunge. But still, an armchair critic is always entertaining! 

Click to expand...

I'm tempted to drag Alf out of the field - all fat and hairy and muddy, and shoot a little "carthorse does dressage with a big grin on his face" vid!


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## JennBags (2 February 2014)

Koen said:



			And you come cross as desperately thick.

Go out and play before you become fat and ugly.....or is this a matter of closing the door after the horse has bolted?
		
Click to expand...

That's coz I is really thick, like, innit.

You, on the other hand, come across as super-intelligent, incredibly kind and loving, and sensitive.  I just wish we could all be more like you.  That's probably why no one likes you, because we're all just so jealous of your wonderful attributes. Yes, that must be it *nods head vigorously*


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## JennBags (2 February 2014)

Oh, by the way







That's a shame, isn't it?


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## Alec Swan (2 February 2014)

Koen said:



			And you come cross as desperately thick.

Go out and play before you become fat and ugly.....or is this a matter of closing the door after the horse has bolted?
		
Click to expand...




JennBags said:



			Oh, by the way







That's a shame, isn't it?
		
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....... and you wonder why?  I've disagreed with many and most I'm sure,  but such vulgar attacks as Koen's posted,  do little to encourage any wish for familiarity,  or liking.  Perhaps it's the way of the Continentals.  I wonder if we're not better off out of the EU and such common behaviour.

Alec.


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## JennBags (2 February 2014)

Alec, somehow I don't think Koen truly is Continental.  Incontinent, perhaps  

His/her posting style seems familiar. Skewby...madcatlady...just a couple of alter egos that spring to mind.


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## Mithras (2 February 2014)

JennBags said:



			Alec, somehow I don't think Koen truly is Continental.  Incontinent, perhaps  

His/her posting style seems familiar. Skewby...madcatlady...just a couple of alter egos that spring to mind.
		
Click to expand...

Its clearly a regular poster, getting a kick out of being a bit OTT.  I have my suspicions...

"Koen" has gone from being Dutch (but confusingly without any Dutch language skills or intonations and a strange propensity to quote dated Afrikaaner phrases from google), to English, to Australian, via Hong Kong, and from male to female and back again.  Now worrying he claims to be in charge of an 18 month old child.  

Anyway, I do find the character quite entertaining (apart from the young child thing, which is a bit creepy), I really do think he/she should hold some online clinics.  He/she could become a bit of tongue in cheek amusing character on here, unconstrained by this thread.


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## Koen (3 February 2014)

Auslander said:



			Yes actually..

Why should i forget the tempi's?
		
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Because you're not ready for them and nor is the horse. If you have to waddle your legs about you might as well get off the horse and do them yourself.


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## Koen (3 February 2014)

This is obviously all going from one very flat extension posted of a horse running on its forehand with its nose strapped up way too tightly. The rider graphically not in the centre of the saddle.  I suspect it's a correct deduction.

If the horse was younger I would say he's not ready for an extension. Not nearly. More transitions more basic basic work before being asked for extensions. But hey you are already talking one time changes down the centre line. Ooops

On a positive note at least he isn't forced into a frame between hand, *spur,* whip and rigid spine and seat. As is so commonly seen in sale yards across Europe and not only  in amateur dressage but a lot at Grand Prix level in competition.  

I might add in the Netherlands this is rarely found, a round frame is desired in younger horses and correctly so. No one there at least it seems wants to end up with a horse at Grand Prix level with irreparable lordosis (dipped back) a trailing hind end, straight front legs thrown into the wind, head held up with high hands on the curb, nose clamped shut in with a crank cavesson and being jabbed continuously with *spurs*.

I see alert signals in the overly tight drop nose band that not everything is right. That he is being asked to do things he's not capable of doing possibly? 

If running across the diagonal at a riding school three times a day with his nose wired closed means he has a job so be it but I wouldn't envy him.

Feel free to shoot the messenger. I care more about the horse than the rider to be at all worried.


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## Koen (3 February 2014)

Mithras said:



			Afrikaaner phrases from google

I do find the character quite entertaining (apart from the young child thing, which is a bit creepy
		
Click to expand...

How drearily dull and pretentious. "I do..." Are we to assume here that you're stricken with class envy?

A "kartoffel" is German for potato, oh well travelled one.  I did learn a few Afrikaner words on Safari at Christmas time, though.

You're heading for being sued with your second remark. But thats probably the only excitement you will ever get in your life so.... maybe you only wish someone would pay you that much attention. Can't imagine anyone ever will but you've definitely lost all of mine with your desperate and crass attempt to get a heated reaction.

Reading your remarks I can only pity you. 

Enjoy, "do" enjoy my pity, it's at least something.


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## ester (3 February 2014)

Bout bloody time you took the time to be more specific .

oh yes and then there is the propensity in the netherlands to take that round frame to it's extreme...... rolkur is a much better option obviously! and no one ends up with a trailing hind end and front legs thrown in the wind... really... all their horses have hinds matching front angles????


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## ester (3 February 2014)

copy writed pic so the links...http://www.eurodressage.com/equestr...runsven-and-painted-black-win-prix-st-georges


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## PolarSkye (3 February 2014)

ester said:



















copy writed pic so the links...http://www.eurodressage.com/equestr...runsven-and-painted-black-win-prix-st-georges

Click to expand...

At the risk of being childish . . . oh yes, because THOSE are matching angles .

P


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## Auslander (3 February 2014)

Koen said:



			Because you're not ready for them and nor is the horse. If you have to waddle your legs about you might as well get off the horse and do them yourself.
		
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Im not sure how you know the horse isn't ready for them? If you mean based on the pic - it was taken in 2006 when he was doing Advanced Medium. As for me - you've never seen me ride...

I do not waddle my legs around to ride tempi's, but I do apply the correct aids - which involves moving the lower leg. Study any GP rider riding a line of one's - and you WILL see their legs move.


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## PaddyMonty (3 February 2014)

Auslander said:



			Study any GP rider ring a line of one's - and you WILL see their legs move.
		
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Yes but the entire GP dressage world is doing it wrong. Haven't you grasped that simple concept yet.


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## Auslander (3 February 2014)

Koen said:



			This is obviously all going from one very flat extension posted of a horse running on its forehand with its nose strapped up way too tightly. The rider graphically not in the centre of the saddle.  I suspect it's a correct deduction.

If the horse was younger I would say he's not ready for an extension. Not nearly. More transitions more basic basic work before being asked for extensions. But hey you are already talking one time changes down the centre line. Ooops

On a positive note at least he isn't forced into a frame between hand, *spur,* whip and rigid spine and seat. As is so commonly seen in sale yards across Europe and not only  in amateur dressage but a lot at Grand Prix level in competition.  

I might add in the Netherlands this is rarely found, a round frame is desired in younger horses and correctly so. No one there at least it seems wants to end up with a horse at Grand Prix level with irreparable lordosis (dipped back) a trailing hind end, straight front legs thrown into the wind, head held up with high hands on the curb, nose clamped shut in with a crank cavesson and being jabbed continuously with *spurs*.

I see alert signals in the overly tight drop nose band that not everything is right. That he is being asked to do things he's not capable of doing possibly? 

If running across the diagonal at a riding school three times a day with his nose wired closed means he has a job so be it but I wouldn't envy him.

Feel free to shoot the messenger. I care more about the horse than the rider to be at all worried.
		
Click to expand...

As per previous post - he was Advanced Medium at this point, and I have previously agreed that a drop is not my choice. He goes in a french link snaffle and a cavesson now, or a double. i believe that he was in a drop at this point because he was rather large and strong for a small lady rider. None of that applies now

Not sure why you keep banging on about extensions. This was a centre line picture, in working trot. Not sure what element of the pic leads you to think that any extension was being asked for?


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## Auslander (3 February 2014)

PaddyMonty said:



			Yes but the entire GP dressage world is doing it wrong. Haven't you grasped that simple concept yet.
		
Click to expand...

Guess not! Silly me!


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## Mithras (3 February 2014)

Koen said:



			How drearily dull and pretentious. "I do..." Are we to assume here that you're stricken with class envy?
		
Click to expand...

You assume wrongly - I wouldn't wish to regress downwards.



Koen said:



			You're heading for being sued with your second remark. But thats probably the only excitement you will ever get in your life so.... maybe you only wish someone would pay you that much attention. Can't imagine anyone ever will but you've definitely lost all of mine with your desperate and crass attempt to get a heated reaction.
		
Click to expand...

Oh, how excellent!  Please, please do so!  I can guarantee you that I would find that most enjoyable!  Extra-territorial jurisdiction is just my thing!

But Koen, there are quite a lot of worrying elements in your posts.  Why you feel it necessary to talk about having a young child in them, I do not know.  Why is it that you felt it necessary to do so?


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## Jenni_ (3 February 2014)

PaddyMonty said:



			Yes but the entire GP dressage world is doing it wrong. Haven't you grasped that simple concept yet.
		
Click to expand...

Obviously. 

Charlotte Dujardin only wins because her shiny white teeth blind the judges and so they can't see her swingy, spurry legs, and mistake Valegro running through her hands in pain as 'forwardness.'

Stupid judges. Have no idea!


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## LaMooch (3 February 2014)

Jenni_ said:



			Obviously. 

Charlotte Dujardin only wins because her shiny white teeth blind the judges and so they can't see her swingy, spurry legs, and mistake Valegro running through her hands in pain as 'forwardness.'

Stupid judges. Have no idea!
		
Click to expand...

Yep such unknowledgeable people these judges are  and also GP riders have been doing it wrong for years.

Koen maybe you can post a link to video of a dressage rider doing it right as it appears our top riders  are all doing it wrong


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## Elbie (3 February 2014)

LaMooch said:



			Yep such unknowledgeable people these judges are  and also GP riders have been doing it wrong for years.

Koen maybe you can post a link to video of a dressage rider doing it right as it appears our top riders  are all doing it wrong
		
Click to expand...

LaMooch, I think it is only Koen who does it 'correctly'!


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## LaMooch (3 February 2014)

Elbie said:



			LaMooch, I think it is only Koen who does it 'correctly'!
		
Click to expand...

yep your right the worlds perfect person


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## Koen (4 February 2014)

Auslander said:



			This was a centre line picture, in working trot. Not sure what element of the pic leads you to think that any extension was being asked for?
		
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My mistake, its her extreme effort involved that led me to assume she as trying for something extended. Working trot? OK.


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## ribbons (4 February 2014)

Koen, I've been reading this thread thinking you were deliberately causing a stink for your own amusement. 
Then thinking you had an ego the size of the universe and were arrogant enough to believe only you're opinions were worthy. 
I've settled on believing you are a sad lonely person who uses google to find information and other people's opinions, to form some crazy argument to try and appear an important person in the horse world. Others have asked for pictorial examples of yourself achieving the results you claim. 
Not a chance is there ?
You entertained me for a while, I'm bored now.
A shame really, as a debate on the use of spurs could have been an interesting one. Sadly your ridiculous posts rendered that impossible.


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## ester (4 February 2014)

No response to the Dutch perfection of matching legs then?


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## Auslander (4 February 2014)

Koen said:



			My mistake, its her extreme effort involved that led me to assume she as trying for something extended. Working trot? OK.
		
Click to expand...

You WHAT? Now I really wonder about you. The rider is sitting quietly - hardly flapping around making an extreme effort. This is not a horse you can kick away at. He doesn't appreciate it, and he will make his feelings clear.

At any point,can we expect to hear what qualifies you to pass such sweeping judgements on horses and riders, who, for all we know, have achieved things that you can only dream of?

If you are as lofty in the dressage world as you would have us believe, you would be able to correctly identify working/medium/extended trot. Simply knowing by looking at the layout that the horse was on the centre line would be a pretty good indicator - even if you aren't able to tell the difference by looking at the horse!


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## cptrayes (4 February 2014)

Koen,  do you not count the world best four and five year old, Farouche, as a good horse?  Or do you somehow assume that she is so good she must be Dutch bred?


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## Elbie (4 February 2014)

I think Koen is looking at a different picture. I can't see any extreme effort in Auslander's photo. I'm not really sure how any photo could show extreme effort unless the rider was red faced, legs and arms in a 'flapping' position.


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## LaMooch (4 February 2014)

Elbie said:



			I think Koen is looking at a different picture. I can't see any extreme effort in Auslander's photo. I'm not really sure how any photo could show extreme effort unless the rider was red faced, legs and arms in a 'flapping' position.
		
Click to expand...

Depends how much Koen has had to drink then the photo will move and look like the rider is flapping


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## Auslander (4 February 2014)

It made me laugh. I forgot who I was sitting on and gave him a kick because he was spooking at the hose/snake. Very nearly ended up on the barn roof!


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## AdorableAlice (4 February 2014)

Time to stop feeding Koen, he/she/it must be full to bursting by now.  A troll with flatulence is not good.


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## Mithras (4 February 2014)

Koen must ride a KWPM import called Alter Ego van het Buitenlander, along with his second horse, Kleintje Voetjes van t'veldt bij de Bergland!


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## Suzie86 (4 February 2014)

Elbie said:



			What I don't get is, the thread is "Spurs or no spurs". Koen has said that spurs should be banned, however, when comparing 2 videos both riders are wearing spurs? Shouldn't we be shown a video of a rider performing high level dressage moves NOT wearing spurs?
		
Click to expand...

exactly what I was just thinking?!?!?


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## Alec Swan (4 February 2014)

cptrayes said:



			................. ?
		
Click to expand...

Never mind Koen,  "You're bacK",  and welcome you are,  too! 

Alec.


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## PolarSkye (4 February 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Koen,  do you not count the world best four and five year old, Farouche, as a good horse?  Or do you somehow assume that she is so good she must be Dutch bred?
		
Click to expand...

Hurrah!  Welcome back - you were missed .

P


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## cptrayes (4 February 2014)

PolarSkye said:



			Hurrah!  Welcome back - you were missed .

P
		
Click to expand...

I am pretty confident that your feelings are not unanimous across the board , but thank you and Alec.

Can I also remind Koen and any other people who do not know, that horse breeding on the continent is State sponsored, with massive subsidy by French, German, Dutch, Danish and I think Swedish tax payers, in the recent past if not now.

In the UK, not only does our horse breeding industry stand on its own two feet, (should that be four  ??)  but it pays huge local taxes because of business rates on the size of the buildings needed for a high class operation.

In the circumstances, we are doing brilliantly well in horse breeding;  second to none in breeding great hunters and eventers, and anyone whose jaw does not drop when they see Farouche in the flesh needs their eyes tested


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## Auslander (4 February 2014)

AdorableAlice said:



			Time to stop feeding Koen, he/she/it must be full to bursting by now.  A troll with flatulence is not good.
		
Click to expand...

He might pop though, and that would be funny!


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## Goldenstar (4 February 2014)

AdorableAlice said:



			Time to stop feeding Koen, he/she/it must be full to bursting by now.  A troll with flatulence is not good.
		
Click to expand...

Youre right AA think of its contribution to global warming when it errr blows .


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## scheherazade (5 February 2014)

Mithras said:



			Koen must ride a KWPM import called Alter Ego van het Buitenlander, along with his second horse, Kleintje Voetjes van t'veldt bij de Bergland![/QUOTE

Hi Mithras,

Please help - what does this mean?? I am getting very confused with all the ?? Dutch?? bits in here

Thankees
		
Click to expand...


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## Koen (5 February 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Koen,  do you not count the world best four and five year old, Farouche, as a good horse?  Or do you somehow assume that she is so good she must be Dutch bred?
		
Click to expand...

No she's also pure German. Lets see what she does first.


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## Patterdale (5 February 2014)

Koen said:



			Lets see what she does first.
		
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Yes, because all she's done so far is stand in the field.....


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## ester (5 February 2014)

still no comment on the dutch horses then?...........


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## AdorableAlice (5 February 2014)

Patterdale said:



			Yes, because all she's done so far is stand in the field.....
		
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and add to the breeding crisis with her ET foals, most shocking....


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## ribbons (5 February 2014)

Who's the prat Koen. Alec was talking to cptrayes not you. 
He was wisely suggesting we forget you.


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## Auslander (5 February 2014)

Oh no! Koen has left the building!!


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## LaMooch (5 February 2014)

Auslander said:



			Oh no! Koen has left the building!!
		
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I'm so gutted


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## scheherazade (5 February 2014)

Auslander said:



			Oh no! Koen has left the building!!
		
Click to expand...

Thank goodness that's over - had to be one of the weirdest exchanges / rants I have read on HHO. Struggled to follow half of it - was it me or was he / she / it actually that incoherent? And that was even without the German / Dutch / Afrikaans or whatever it was bits.

Going to retire to my corner and recover I think


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## Goldenstar (5 February 2014)

Well that was fun.


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## babymare (5 February 2014)

mmmmm missed the entertainment this afternoon with no koen  But peace noweth reigns


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## ribbons (5 February 2014)

How strange, the post from Koen calling Alec a prat because she thought his post to cptrayes was to her seems to have been removed.


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## cptrayes (5 February 2014)

Koen said:



			No she's also pure German. Lets see what she does first.
		
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Oh no no no. That will NOT do as your argument. Your complaint was British BRED and the horse was bred by a small stud in England.

Her German forebears,  as I have already pointed out, were the product of huge investment by the German tax payer.

What she does first? She has already done better than any other horse of her age in the world. It's good enough for me to tell me that we need to stop denigrating British breeders.


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