# Horse sold and not collected.



## tonigin (30 November 2019)

Can anyone give me some help please.  My horse was viewed and sold mid September.  Buyer put down deposit next day and said would be collected a week later.  A week later didnt hear anything from buyer so messaged and call to no response.  Next time we heard was 7th October when they messaged to say they were waiting for house sale to complete and would be in next few days.  Despite further messages and phone calls unanswered (24 in all), and no response for her at all, next time of hearing was 15th November to say she would collect the next day.  She didnt.  Then again she would collect 23rd November she didnt.  

After sending a message to say this Thursday that as it had been 10 weeks if she was not paid for and collected by today, the horse would be going on sales livery, she paid in full to bank account but again no communication and not answering messages or phone calls.  What happens now.  I have kept the horse for 10 weeks, livery and insurance again due on the 1st which together is another Â£200 for the month, I dont technically now own the pony she does but she will not communicate and was selling due to personal reasons and having to cut down for winter.


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## HeyMich (30 November 2019)

Do you have BHS legal cover? I'd call them for advice.


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## honetpot (30 November 2019)

I would tell her from the date of payment you are charging her full livery if she doesnâ€™t collect in the week and as itâ€™s now her pony she is liable for the insurance and any vets fees. Keep a record with receipts with all you spend. I bet they want you to keep it until after Christmas.
 This is why I never take deposits.


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## lilly1 (30 November 2019)

Ditto getting legal advice.  It would be easier to refund if you can and sell the horse to someone else. Very odd scenario.


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## twiggy2 (30 November 2019)

I would check for legal advice but I would be looking round charge for livery services and stable charges.
To be honest I would have messaged a week later to say that unless the horse was collected.in 24 hrs it would be resold.
I would be hoping that I could return the money minus above charges and resell the horse.


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## ester (30 November 2019)

I would say she has 48 hours to collect the horse or you will be returning the money minus livery costs and the sale is cancelled.


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## Sasanaskyex (30 November 2019)

My first instinct is to say that I would cancel the sale anyway, they are obviously not reliable and I wouldn't trust them to look after the horse


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## tonigin (30 November 2019)

Thank you for your responses, it is the most bizarre situation, and is very upsetting and stressful.  I am going to speak to solicitiors on Monday, as a third of what i sold the horse for has been taken up in livery fees and looking after her etc, and feel i have been more than fair


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## doodle (30 November 2019)

I would refund the money and message them saying you have done so and horse is no longer for sale. Then block number and move on.


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## blitznbobs (30 November 2019)

Or send text saying you are now charging full livery for their horse at 1500 per week ... should pick it up pretty quickly


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## Amymay (30 November 2019)

ester said:



			I would say she has 48 hours to collect the horse or you will be returning the money minus livery costs and the sale is cancelled.
		
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Yep, this is what Iâ€™d do.


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## Patterdale (30 November 2019)

This is bizarre!

I would do what Ester said.


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## HashRouge (30 November 2019)

ester said:



			I would say she has 48 hours to collect the horse or you will be returning the money minus livery costs and the sale is cancelled.
		
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Absolutely this - what a bizarre scenario!


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## JillA (30 November 2019)

Can I ask how much deposit (i.e was it an amount most people could stand losing)?l


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## be positive (30 November 2019)

Patterdale said:



			This is bizarre!

I would do what Ester said.
		
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So would I, although probably a good few weeks ago. The horse now belongs to her which is putting you in a tricky position if anything did go wrong, they are now technically the owner so your insurance may not pay out if anything happened.


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## JillA (30 November 2019)

be positive said:



			The horse now belongs to her which is putting you in a tricky position if anything did go wrong, they are now technically the owner so your insurance may not pay out if anything happened.
		
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No, the horse does not belong to the buyer until all the payments have been made in full. You will find the same with all goods sold with staged payments/hire purchase agreements - unless it is done through a finance company, in which case I would think the company owns it until the debt is paid in full


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## be positive (30 November 2019)

JillA said:



			No, the horse does not belong to the buyer until all the payments have been made in full. You will find the same with all goods sold with staged payments/hire purchase agreements
		
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In the OP it says the payment was made in full by transfer on Thursday.


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## JillA (30 November 2019)

be positive said:



			In the OP it says the payment was made in full by transfer on Thursday.
		
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Oh sorry, missed that. In which case I would tell them you will give them a deadline to collect and after that treat it as abandoned. You can threaten to charge livery but getting the money might be a different matter


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## Squeak (30 November 2019)

Sasanaskyex said:



			My first instinct is to say that I would cancel the sale anyway, they are obviously not reliable and I wouldn't trust them to look after the horse
		
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Agree with this.  I would be trying to get out of the sale so that the pony can be found a better/ different home.


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## tonigin (30 November 2019)

My last text message to the lady on Monday was "as it has been 10 weeks and she hasnt been paid for if she is not paid for and collected by Saturday 30th November she is going to be taken and placed on sales livery".  To which she then sent the remaining money through to bank but no message or phone call saying she has done that or when she intends to collect.  So messaged again Thursday asking for a collection date and still nothing.


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## scats (30 November 2019)

How bizarre!  It seems strange to pay for a horse in full if they arenâ€™t  interested.  I would be tempted to send a message saying that you will give them a week to get in touch to arrange collection, or at least explain whatâ€™s going on, or you will refund the money (minus deposit, due to being messed about) and put horse back on the market.


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## Amymay (30 November 2019)

tonigin said:



			My last text message to the lady on Monday was "as it has been 10 weeks and she hasnt been paid for if she is not paid for and collected by Saturday 30th November she is going to be taken and placed on sales livery".  To which she then sent the remaining money through to bank but no message or phone call saying she has done that or when she intends to collect.  So messaged again Thursday asking for a collection date and still nothing.
		
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refund the money today and tell her the sale is void.


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## JillA (30 November 2019)

amymay said:



			refund the money today and tell her the sale is void.
		
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Not that easy - she has a contract and you need to take steps to end it. One of which would be communication which you can produce if necessary and it isn't easy with text message to prove it has been received. Recorded delivery letter or email with a read receipt is the safest, giving an ultimatum which if she ignores it proves she has terminated the contract by default. I'm not a lawyer but before you call the whole sale off you do need legal advice, CAB or BHS


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## Amymay (30 November 2019)

Rubbish. The contract has been voided. Text messages have clearly been received.

Who in their right mind wouldnâ€™t be returning the money today.


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## JillA (30 November 2019)

amymay said:



			Rubbish. The contract has been voided. Text messages have clearly been received.
		
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Good luck with evidencing that if it gets to court then................................


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## conniegirl (30 November 2019)

Its very easy to evidence! The lady clearly read the txt as she paid for the horse in fill


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## windand rain (30 November 2019)

With puppies I have always kept the pup until ready on a deposit if the pup is returned then the first new owner has to wait for the pup to be resold and only was given the resale price minus the deposit.
Not sure legally whether you can do the same with a horse
Value of pups falls as they age passed 10 weeks in most cases


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## Amymay (30 November 2019)

JillA said:



			Good luck with evidencing that if it gets to court then................................
		
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If it went to court (which is highly doubtful) there is clear evidence of text messages being responded to.

Regardless, id this were me, the money would be returned today and the horse readvertised.  Iâ€™d happily take my chances in court.


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## Toby_Zaphod (30 November 2019)

I would text them informing them that although they purchased the horse on ? date in September & eventually paid for it on ? date you have been paying for the livery of the horse that no longer belongs to you but belongs to them for the last 10 weeks. I would bill them for livery from the day they purchased the horse, not the day they paid, until the present. Charge a reasonable amount, not the Â£1500 a week as said by one member. Then if they want to cause any issue with you you can always void the sale, as they have repeatedly failed to collect the horse & then deduct the livery costs from the money they paid & refund them any left over. Even if they eventually turn up for the horse they will need to bring more money with them to make up the purchase price as livery will have been deducted. They cannot expect you to look after the horse for 10 weeks for free.


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## Amymay (30 November 2019)

Why at this stage would you do that TZ?


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## Ranyhyn (30 November 2019)

What Ester said


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## Pinkvboots (30 November 2019)

I would pay the money back and cancel the sale what idiot behaves like that, I would not want to sell a horse to such a person.


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## tiahatti (30 November 2019)

What a very strange situation. As others have said, I would refund the money as I definitively wouldn't be comfortable handing over my horse to someone who is so totally unreliable.


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## chaps89 (30 November 2019)

Trouble with sending the money back is that's only possible if the OP has the buyers bank details.
Just because they received a transfer from them, doesn't mean OP can necessarily send it back.

In this instance I would be seeking legal advice - CAB, BHS legal or even home insurance sometimes have legal assistance.

My inclination would be to message to say as 30th Nov has now passed and horse has not been collected, you will be charging livery and expenses from this point on.
If it wouldn't land you in trouble legally I'd also try the approach of you are cancelling the sale, will refund money I've bank details are provided and horse will be going on sales livery tomorrow. I'd then send horse off and just keep their money to one side ready to return to them.

What a bizarre situation!


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## bonny (30 November 2019)

Are you talking thousands or is this a cheap horse ?


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## Amymay (30 November 2019)

bonny said:



			Are you talking thousands or is this a cheap horse ?
		
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Whatâ€™s the difference? ðŸ¤·ðŸ»â€â™€ï¸ðŸ¤·ðŸ»â€â™€ï¸


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## tonigin (30 November 2019)

Horse is a few thousand pounds not cheap.  Thank you all I will seek legal advice on Monday and see if I can return the money and cancel the sale, I sadly dont have their details to just return her money or would have returned the deposit ages ago but she did not communicate with me or reply to phone calls or text messages.


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## Amymay (30 November 2019)

Speak to your bank. They should be able to do a reverse payment. If they canâ€™t, move the money in to a separate account. And when you contact the buyer tell them the sale is void and ask them for their bank details.


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## twiggy2 (30 November 2019)

What were the conditions of the deposit and did you have them in writing?


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## Rowreach (30 November 2019)

Trouble is, returning the money still leaves the OP seriously out of pocket.


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## lilly1 (30 November 2019)

I feel for you Tonigin. Sounds like you've been more than reasonable. It's all very bizarre.


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## D66 (30 November 2019)

The contract specifies paying and collecting the horse by today - so she has broken the contract.


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## Melody Grey (30 November 2019)

You asked for payment AND collection by a certain date- if that's not done, they have not fulfilled their part of the deal, even though they have paid. I would re-sell and refund them when they bother to contact you. Very odd indeed and not the kind of people I'd want to sell a horse to!


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## Melody Grey (30 November 2019)

D66 said:



			The contract specifies paying and collecting the horse by today - so she has broken the contract.
		
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Haha- cross posted, great minds think alike!


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## doodle (30 November 2019)

I wouldnt want to sell  horse to people like that.  Refund through the bank and keep the deposit


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## Melody Grey (30 November 2019)

chaps89 said:



			Trouble with sending the money back is that's only possible if the OP has the buyers bank details.
Just because they received a transfer from them, doesn't mean OP can necessarily send it back.

In this instance I would be seeking legal advice - CAB, BHS legal or even home insurance sometimes have legal assistance.

My inclination would be to message to say as 30th Nov has now passed and horse has not been collected, you will be charging livery and expenses from this point on.
If it wouldn't land you in trouble legally I'd also try the approach of you are cancelling the sale, will refund money I've bank details are provided and horse will be going on sales livery tomorrow. I'd then send horse off and just keep their money to one side ready to return to them.

What a bizarre situation!
		
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Trouble is that by charging livery, you'd be entering into another type of contract that is being forced on the buyer without it being previously discussed or agreed by them which is legally a no-go in my experience, even though it does seem a logical place to go. 

Definitely seek legal advice, but I'd cancel the sale and refund when they approached you for the money unless you can write a cheque and post it to them? By recorded delivery so you have proof of receipt. If you have texts/emails, you have proof of their side of the deal not being met. I think you'd be safe if they'd bothered to take you to court, especially if you have made efforts to refund them.


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## SusieT (30 November 2019)

text them and tell that unless they pick the horse up within 48 hours you will be charging full livery at 100/day (its a hassle , you dont want it, that seems reasonable), unless they want a refund less the cost of keeping the horse - and in the meantime I'd consider re advertising and refunding them their money if they come forward and the horse is sold...and don't accept any excuses. have to say I'd have not let them go past a week so its kind of you're own fault you have ten weeks extra livery to pay- this sounds v odd.


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## SEL (30 November 2019)

I'd be interested in the BHS legal advice because I suspect you'll have to go down the abandonment process.

What a bizarre situation!


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## tonigin (30 November 2019)

SusieT said:



			text them and tell that unless they pick the horse up within 48 hours you will be charging full livery at 100/day (its a hassle , you dont want it, that seems reasonable), unless they want a refund less the cost of keeping the horse - and in the meantime I'd consider re advertising and refunding them their money if they come forward and the horse is sold...and don't accept any excuses. have to say I'd have not let them go past a week so its kind of you're own fault you have ten weeks extra livery to pay- this sounds v odd.
		
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Your right it is my own fault for letting it go on, but as she had paid a deposit, I very naively assumed that after the first failed pick up she would come in the next week.  Then after text mid October again thought be a few days and would hear again.  I also had a friend say that a deposit is a legal contract that I have agreed to sell and as they had travelled a long way it could end in a lot of grief if i tried to return.  

Never in all my days would i still believe that 10 weeks down the line i am still waiting, at worse she has now paid for her in full and owns the mare but again not responding to any contact to when she now decides to collect.  I just need to get the situation resolved one way or another, I have messed my poor yard owner about giving notice and it is a lesson learnt if I ever sell a horse again I will not take a deposit and they will only be sold when i have full payment the day they collect.


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## Equi (30 November 2019)

When i was selling my horse one lady arranged a viewing but cancelled due to being hung over. I gave her one more chance and she again cancelled because of somethng else but said she would 100% be there the next day..i told her not to bother. We dont know anything about this situation but they are clearly not that interested or they would want the horse now. I would send a message saying the YO wants their details so she can forward any livery charges to them as of the date of full payment as they are now the legal owner and you won't be out of pocket over it. If contact has not been made to collect, they will be getting their money back and horse sold elsewhere. They have paid money, but they have not actually had a receipt of sale so there is no proof bar the money (that you are willing to give back) that they bought the horse.


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## Cinnamontoast (30 November 2019)

Abandonment notice text, tell her yard will take possession of horse in lieu of livery charges in 7 days-you can say she owes yard 10 weeksâ€™ worth (yard owner can take out a lien?). I think thatâ€™s right.


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## twiggy2 (30 November 2019)

I would say you need to act now if possible, what are you going to do if the horse gets injured/I'll or has colic, she is not yours to make decisions about and your insurance will not cover her legally.
You have needed up in a bit of a muddle and yes you maybe should have acted sooner but what's done is done and your where you are now.
Good luck and let us know how you get on.


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## ycbm (30 November 2019)

tonigin said:



			I also had a friend say that a deposit is a legal contract that I have agreed to sell and as they had travelled a long way it could end in a lot of grief if i tried to return. 
.
		
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Your contract was payment in full AND collection. That contract has not been fulfilled. I think you would be well within your rights to return the money and cancel the sale. 

.


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## AdorableAlice (30 November 2019)

You are all too kind.  I would take a different view and send a text message saying the horse was put down following an accident and then sit back and wait for a reaction.

I think the vendor has had problems with livery and has no where to put the horse.


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## ycbm (30 November 2019)

I think that would certainly get a reaction AA!  Did Ted put that idea in your head ðŸ¤£?

.


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## AdorableAlice (30 November 2019)

ycbm said:



			I think that would certainly get a reaction AA!  Did Ted put that idea in your head ðŸ¤£?

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Ha ha, very possibly !  It did take 15 minutes for the boys to come to call tonight and there were various threats about sausages if they didn't shift themselves.


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## tonigin (30 November 2019)

Livery is not a problem she has her own 60 box livery yard, I just want to message her and say as she hasnt kept to todays deadline.  Horse will now be readvertised and sold, and monies will be returned once sold less livery and any reducution in price I have to take due to time of year now.


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## Equi (30 November 2019)

I hope it works out. There is something so very fishy about it all.


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## Amymay (30 November 2019)

tonigin said:



			Livery is not a problem she has her own 60 box livery yard, I just want to message her and say as she hasnt kept to todays deadline.  Horse will now be readvertised and sold, and monies will be returned once sold less livery and any reducution in price I have to take due to time of year now.
		
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Let us know how it goâ€™s. Good luck


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## SusieT (30 November 2019)

sounds fair. do it now. that gives her tomorrow a nice sunday day to pick the horse up if she really wants it


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## Amymay (30 November 2019)

SusieT said:



			sounds fair. do it now. that gives her tomorrow a nice sunday day to pick the horse up if she really wants it
		
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Absolutely


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## tonigin (30 November 2019)

Thank you all so much for your time and input I will update what is happening.


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## Keith_Beef (30 November 2019)

AdorableAlice said:



			You are all too kind.  I would take a different view and send a text message saying the horse was put down following an accident and then sit back and wait for a reaction.

I think the vendor has had problems with livery and has no where to put the horse.
		
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Or it might make the buyer decide to go completely off radar and block OP's number to prevent reception of futures text messages...


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## Amymay (30 November 2019)

Keith_Beef said:



			Or it might make the buyer decide to go completely off radar and block OP's number to prevent reception of futures text messages...
		
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In which case they get neither horse nor refund...


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## Happy Hunter (30 November 2019)

tonigin said:



			Livery is not a problem she has her own 60 box livery yard, I just want to message her and say as she hasnt kept to todays deadline.  Horse will now be readvertised and sold, and monies will be returned once sold less livery and any reducution in price I have to take due to time of year now.
		
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That's got to be the fishiest part.... best if luck OP. This is more intreguing than an itvdrama!


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## AdorableAlice (30 November 2019)

amymay said:



			In which case they get neither horse nor refund...
		
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Exactly.  There is obviously something very wrong if the horse has been tried, vetted, deposit left and balance paid and then left with the vendor.  Ten weeks has elapsed and no progress.  The purchaser must have some sort of problem and is simply ignoring the requests to pick the horse up.  It is winter and a tough one given the weather, it costs money to feed horses and time to look after them.  Maybe the purchaser has lost their job etc.

The vendor needs closure, she has the money for it, whose responsibility is it to provide care or worse, emergency care should it colic tonight.  It is not like selling a bike which can be propped against the wall until collection.  The vendor knows the purchaser has a 60 box livery yard, why not just deliver the horse with an open mind and if the yard is a dump or there is evidence of poor welfare just take the horse home again.


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## Lois Lame (30 November 2019)

Happy Hunter said:



			That's got to be the fishiest part.... best if luck OP. This is more intreguing than an itvdrama!
		
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It's most puzzling. Maybe we could make this into a novel...


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## southerncomfort (1 December 2019)

If the horse were on the cheaper side I'd be suspicious that the buyer is in fact a dealer and has every intention of selling on for a higher price. And is letting you pay for livery while she lines up potential buyers.

Or maybe she is just rude and uncommunicative!

Either way it's all very strange!


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## Ambers Echo (1 December 2019)

I suspect the buyer really wants the horse and is having some sort of major life event that is making her drag her feet and stall for time. But that's not the OP's problem. This is tricky situation legally. The plan of cancel sale, and refund when sold minus livery fees and season-related loss of value does make sense and seems fair, but you'd need to run it past a legal expert to ensure you can make deductions from the refund legally.  

It seems that either you  cancel the sale and that takes you down one route or you accept the horse is sold and start charging livery fees etc and in due course issue an abandonment notice. There may be pros, cons and risks to either approach.

Let us know how you get on. A weird one for sure!


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## exracehorse (1 December 2019)

I read this online.  

Where the Horse is not collected immediately upon ownership of the Horse passing from the Seller to the Purchaser, the Purchaser agrees to indemnify the Seller against all costs incurred in caring for the Horse except basic livery which the seller will not charge for the first 3 days since purchase price was received or horse was vetted, whichever was first. Costs of farrier, veterinary costs and livery costs after 3 days etc will be charged for until the Horse is collected by the Purchaser or their employee/agent. Any loss, damage or injury howsoever caused by the Horse whilst the Horse is at the Sellerâ€™s premises awaiting collection by the Purchaser shall be the Purchaserâ€™s responsibility.


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## exracehorse (1 December 2019)

Years ago my YO had a lady arrive with two ponies.  Paid upfront for a long period of time. Then simply disappeared. He never saw or heard from her again. He sold them in the end at market.  There are some odd folk.


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## Ambers Echo (1 December 2019)

exracehorse said:



			I read this online. 

Where the Horse is not collected immediately upon ownership of the Horse passing from the Seller to the Purchaser, the Purchaser agrees to indemnify the Seller against all costs incurred in caring for the Horse except basic livery which the seller will not charge for the first 3 days since purchase price was received or horse was vetted, whichever was first. Costs of farrier, veterinary costs and livery costs after 3 days etc will be charged for until the Horse is collected by the Purchaser or their employee/agent. Any loss, damage or injury howsoever caused by the Horse whilst the Horse is at the Sellerâ€™s premises awaiting collection by the Purchaser shall be the Purchaserâ€™s responsibility.





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That assumes the sale went through on receipt of payment and the horse now belongs to the new owner. I am not sure what the situation is if the OP cancels the sale. It's a tricky one.


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## Melody Grey (1 December 2019)

exracehorse said:



			I read this online.  

Where the Horse is not collected immediately upon ownership of the Horse passing from the Seller to the Purchaser, the Purchaser agrees to indemnify the Seller against all costs incurred in caring for the Horse except basic livery which the seller will not charge for the first 3 days since purchase price was received or horse was vetted, whichever was first. Costs of farrier, veterinary costs and livery costs after 3 days etc will be charged for until the Horse is collected by the Purchaser or their employee/agent. Any loss, damage or injury howsoever caused by the Horse whilst the Horse is at the Sellerâ€™s premises awaiting collection by the Purchaser shall be the Purchaserâ€™s responsibility.




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All totally fair enough and reasonable, but I can't see how that could be legally enforced if that hasn't been served to the buyer prior to the sale? Hence why we're so frequently read the riot act when purchasing things over the phone or in the small print of online sales I guess? I realise a horse is different, but it does still come under the sale of goods act as far as I know....which is why I think just cancelling the sale would be preferable.

ETA: what I'm trying to say is that's you can't change the rules after the deal has been struck. (Even though i totally get where you're coming from and sympathise!)


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## exracehorse (1 December 2019)

Melody Grey said:



			All totally fair enough and reasonable, but I can't see how that could be legally enforced if that hasn't been served to the buyer prior to the sale? Hence why we're so frequently read the riot act when purchasing things over the phone or in the small print of online sales I guess? I realise a horse is different, but it does still come under the sale of goods act as far as I know....which is why I think just cancelling the sale would be preferable.
		
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We need Judge Rinder advice ðŸ˜€


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## windand rain (1 December 2019)

seems to me that buyers can be as difficult as sellers. As said before sell the horse and refund the other person the amount you receive now not what it was worth initially you may even have to reduce it further due to market forces. But the caveat to that is make sure you legally can


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## Toby_Zaphod (1 December 2019)

Amymay because it is right to do so. She has been using her time & money to look after their horse for 10 weeks. They should pay that bill on  top of whatever they paid for the horse. Would you pay 10 weeks livery, food & hay looking after a horse that you no longer own!


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## Amymay (1 December 2019)

Ambers Echo said:



			That assumes the sale went through on receipt of payment and the horse now belongs to the new owner. I am not sure what the situation is if the OP cancels the sale. It's a tricky one.
		
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The thing is payment may have been received, but it doesnâ€™t mean itâ€™s accepted. So the horse doesnâ€™t automatically belong to the _potential â€™new ownerâ€™._

_I think posters are making it overly complicated_


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## Amymay (1 December 2019)

Toby_Zaphod said:



			Amymay because it is right to do so. She has been using her time & money to look after their horse for 10 weeks. They should pay that bill on  top of whatever they paid for the horse. Would you pay 10 weeks livery, food & hay looking after a horse that you no longer own!
		
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Eh???


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## Bellaboo18 (1 December 2019)

amymay said:



			The thing is payment may have been received, but it doesnâ€™t mean itâ€™s accepted. So the horse doesnâ€™t automatically belong to the _potential â€™new ownerâ€™._

_I think posters are making it overly complicated_

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I think this is a good point. 

I'd ask the bank to refund the money (minus deposit), text and say the sale is cancelled and then move on.


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## Pinkvboots (1 December 2019)

AdorableAlice said:



			You are all too kind.  I would take a different view and send a text message saying the horse was put down following an accident and then sit back and wait for a reaction.

I think the vendor has had problems with livery and has no where to put the horse.
		
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Lol!!


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## Ambers Echo (1 December 2019)

Bellaboo18 said:



			I think this is a good point.

I'd ask the bank to refund the money (minus deposit), text and say the sale is cancelled and then move on.
		
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Yes but she wants to claim back 10  weeks worth of livery and is suggesting she will only offer a partial refund. It is that bit I am not sure is legal. I agree OP could just cancel the sale - end of. But if she wants to recover some of the what this has cost her then she needs advice imo.


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## hihosilver (1 December 2019)

cancel the sale immediately. Draw a line under the cost and re sell the horse. Whole thing is ridiculous!


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## AandK (1 December 2019)

This is just madness. There is no way Iâ€™d want to sell a horse to someone this flaky. Iâ€™d text them saying as they did not collect by 30/11 the sale is cancelled and ask for details to issue a refund minus livery costs.


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## Bellaboo18 (1 December 2019)

Ambers Echo said:



			Yes but she wants to claim back 10  weeks worth of livery and is suggesting she will only offer a partial refund. It is that bit I am not sure is legal. I agree OP could just cancel the sale - end of. But if she wants to recover some of the what this has cost her then she needs advice imo.
		
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No I doubt it is legal so personally I'd just write the livery cost off and move forward. Some people are just near on impossible to work with. If the bank can refund the money tomorrow and a text is sent the horse can be readvertised the same day. I wouldn't waste another week on this buyer.


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## Amymay (1 December 2019)

The livery fees can be claimed for through the small claims court.

OP, any update?


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## tonigin (1 December 2019)

I have tried calling today phone just rang and rang, so have sent her a text messages saying I have been patient long enough 11 weeks now is it too long I said on Thursday in my text if horse is not paid for and collected by Saturday (30th) the horse would be going on sales livery, you have not contacted since paying in full and if i dont hear from her by the end of today I am taking legal advice in the morning to recover costs and what to do ongoing.


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## SusieT (1 December 2019)

you need to just give her a deadline, dont fanny saying you 'will' take legal advice- DO IT . otherwise she will continue to string you along.


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## JanetGeorge (1 December 2019)

tonigin said:



			I have messed my poor yard owner about giving notice and it is a lesson learnt if I ever sell a horse again I will not take a deposit and they will only be sold when i have full payment the day they collect.
		
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A weird situation to be in.  As a breeder, I have sold about 140 horses - from weanlings to grown-ups - and never hit anything this bad.  I don't take deposits - even for foals.  I just tell people they are first in line if the horse isn't ready to go an of course then don't charge livery.  After sale is agreed, I expect horse to be paid for and collected within a reasonable time (up to 10 days if they have trouble arranging transport.)  IF they told me up front that they couldn't collect until after Christmas (or whenever) then I would treat it as a livery.  I'm not a lawyer, but I would e-mail immediately and tell them that - from the date of final payment you WOULD require livery costs and other expenses - but as you're not the owner, you can't do insurance so it is 'at their risk'.  Make it clear that if the horse is nOT collected within a week, then the sale is void and you will refund purchase price less deposit.  IF they do, you might have trouble reneging on the sale - otherwise, if they tried taking you to court they would be laughed out.


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## Illusion100 (2 December 2019)

You sold the horse and the buyer paid the requested amount. They have not collected the horse, despite your goodwill and communication and requests for them to do so. 

I'd keep the money they transferred and re advertise sale. Sell your horse to another buyer and let the people who have messed you about take you to court. You will have kept the money to return to them should the Judge rule in their favour, it is very unlikely they will add any court costs, you will simply break even yet have the horse sold to an alternative buyer.


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## cremedemonthe (2 December 2019)

You have far more patience than I have, she would have been given the boot long before now, hell I get annoyed if people don't turn up to buy a cockerel collar when they say they are going to let alone a horse after 11 weeks!
Good luck OP, let us know how it goes, I know there's always 2 sides to every story but she really is taking the pee.
Oz


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## tallyho! (2 December 2019)

money laundering?


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## Amymay (2 December 2019)

tallyho! said:



			money laundering?
		
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It crossed my mind


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## be positive (2 December 2019)

amymay said:



			It crossed my mind
		
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It also crossed my mind, she has a big livery yard so someone on here must know who she is if she exists???

Livery is not a problem she has her own 60 box livery yard,
Read more at https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/...t-collected.783075/page-2#GBoHJFlJBi42jsD7.99


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## exracehorse (2 December 2019)

Which county is she in ?


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## tonigin (2 December 2019)

Thank you all so much for all your help and support.  She has finally contacted to say she will collect the horse before Wednesday and it has been down to arrange transport.  No idea why not kept in contact she didnt explain.

I did take legal advice this morning just in case it happens to someone else, the legal side is a deposit is a promise to buy by the buyer.  Full payment and collection dates must be stated on receipt of deposit (whether verbal or written but written is the way to go).  If seller cancels sale a full deposit must be refunded but not if the buyer does.  That said collection should be in a reasonable amount of time which he says a month would deem to be reasonable unless stated earlier in contract.  Then you have to advise seller that the deposit will be used towards keep and therefore if they wish to continue with sale they need to pay the difference.  Once paid for in full, the title of the property transfers to the owner and should  be collected immediately on payment unless again a seperate agreement has been reached.  The seller has a duty of care to keep the item in the condition the buyer purchased it.  There was more but that is the short version.

You can just refund the full sale price and cancel the sale, but you can also be held liable for the buyers out of pocket expenses petrol, time, searching for replacement.  The only resolve to gain out of pocket expenses etc is small claims.

So moral of the story put it all in writing collection times, charges if not collected and anything else you can think of.  A lesson learnt here big time.


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## doodle (2 December 2019)

What makes me think she still wont collect?


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## little_critter (2 December 2019)

And what happens id Wednesday comes and the horse still isn't collected - did the legal advice cover that?


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## HeyMich (2 December 2019)

Are you sure you want to sell a living, breathing animal to this person?


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## Amymay (2 December 2019)

little_critter said:



			And what happens id Wednesday comes and the horse still isn't collected - did the legal advice cover that?
		
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This


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## cremedemonthe (2 December 2019)

See you all on here Wednesday then to see the outcome, better than enders.
Good luck OP, I feel you are going to need it, Oz


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## hopscotch bandit (2 December 2019)

She can't be that interested/excited about the horse if she's not kept in communication.  My current horse, seen on the Thursday, tried on the Saturday and then again on the Sunday, vetted on the Tuesday, collected on the Thursday.  Arrived home approx 7 days and 4 hours after first viewing.

Kept in constant contact with dealer and I was massively concerned that there was a gap of two days between vetting and collection.


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## Landcruiser (2 December 2019)

OP did you ask her about a contribution towards keep for the horse for the last 11 weeks?


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## ROMANY 1959 (2 December 2019)

I am sorry for your situation, but I would not be happy to sell a horse to this person, I would have refunded, less expenses and sold elsewhere.. but I hope it all turns out ok


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## Trouper (2 December 2019)

Are you really going to let this person have the horse?


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## Mule (2 December 2019)

I'm sure the person is fine, I wouldn't be worried about her having the horse. Something personal might have happened that she didn't want to get in to.


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## Lois Lame (2 December 2019)

It's interesting isn't it.

Maybe the moral of the saga is not to take a deposit when selling something (anything!) because the seller then loses control.

Anyhow I reckon it would make a good novel but we need something mysterious as to why the would-be purchaser isn't picking up the horse when she has her own 60 box yard (gad). It can't just be that she's too busy due to Christmas (what my husband suggested!).

Money laundering? I don't think so, not unless she offers quite a lot of dosh for the upkeep of the mare during the ten weeks.


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## Lois Lame (2 December 2019)

Though I'm not sure how you launder money that way...


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## Amymay (2 December 2019)

Maybe the moral of the saga is not to take a deposit when selling something (anything!) *because the seller then loses control*.
		
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Not really, because as a seller you are _offering_ to sell something. That offer can be withdrawn at any time. A deposit is the purchaser _promising_ to buy. The onus is on the purchaser to complete the purchase, not the seller.


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## Lois Lame (2 December 2019)

No, I don't think so.

A seller offers to sell something for a certain price. He has the right to refuse to sell the item to whomever he chooses to. For example, a person might come along (like the lady who owns the 60 box yard) and say, "I'd like to buy that beast."

The seller might say, "Hmmm... are you that lady wot I read about on Horse and Hound forum??" The would-be purchase's eyes shift in a suspicious manner. "I'm sorry," says the seller, "but I will not sell you my horse."

The seller is within his or her rights to refuse to sell.

However, if the seller doesn't read this forum and doesn't realise what a tricky customer this lady will turn out to be, both parties might end up agreeing on a price. Then the seller asks for a deposit (thinking it's the done thing). They have now entered into a contract.

The seller can't pull out... unless the buyer does something to break that contract.

(It might be a written contract, it might be a verbal contract. A written one is preferable because it is so much easier to prove.)

If in the contract it is stated that the buyer will pick up the horse on 12.12.19 but fails to do so, then the contract is now broken. The seller can now decide against selling the horse to the 'buyer'.


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## SpottyMare (2 December 2019)

After a deposit has been paid both parties can still pull out - the seller would have to return the deposit should they pull out, the potential buyer would lose the deposit.  So to say the seller can't pull out is incorrect.


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## Lois Lame (2 December 2019)

A deposit (it seems to me) protects the buyer. There doesn't seem to be much benefit for the seller.

I won't be accepting a deposit from anyone if I choose to sell something.


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## be positive (3 December 2019)

Lois Lame said:



			A deposit (it seems to me) protects the buyer. There doesn't seem to be much benefit for the seller.

I won't be accepting a deposit from anyone if I choose to sell something.
		
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I have sold a lot of horses, including sales liveries, and have very rarely asked for or accepted a deposit, as a seller I like the buyer to take a little time to think, usually on the journey home, I also sometimes need thinking time to decide if it is the best home possible, even for those that are not mine I want the best for.
Very few sales have fallen through, many sell to the first viewers, people prefer not to be put under pressure to make a decision although they often know they want the horse it just gives them time to breathe and maybe ask a few more questions and me much the same if in any way I have felt it the wrong home.

I cannot think of any time I have left a deposit when buying, if a seller gets too pushy I tend to back off and take a bit longer to decide, if one is lost then it is not meant to be and I don't remember ever losing one I really wanted for myself or a client.

I did once pull out of a sale after the horse passed a vetting as the buyer wanted to renegotiate the price with no real reason, my response was the agreed price or nothing she dithered too long then started to pull the horse apart to justify the reduction, not on in my view, so at that point I pulled out, she threatened to take it further as breach of contract but to my mind she had tried to change terms so any verbal contract didn't hold, she went away and the horse sold the next day to a super home, if I had held a deposit it would have been more difficult to pull out.


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## Amymay (3 December 2019)

Soooooo,

What news OP???


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## tonigin (3 December 2019)

No news not heard from her, so guess will see tomorrow not holding my breath.  Legal letter ready to send close of play tomorrow.


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## Goldenstar (3 December 2019)

What a nut .


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## SatansLittleHelper (3 December 2019)

Is it tomorrow she's supposed to be collecting..?? Sounds to me (after reading this whole thread) that she's very unlikely to turn up. Surely she'd have been in touch with a time etc by now??


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## tonigin (3 December 2019)

Yes tomorrow, and exactly my thought not holding out any hope she will turn up at all.


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## Summit (3 December 2019)

As soon as tomorrow comes and goes, start yiur plan of action. Don’t wait anymore or give more chances.  Time to move on.  She’s clearly not interested


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## MrsMozart (4 December 2019)

Late to the party, but for what it's worth I know at least two people who would act this way when buying a horse. If they weren't quite ready etc., for the horse to come home they just wouldn't collect until they were ready. They'd very likely not communicate either. In their heads it would be that the deal was done, they'd just not register (for want of a better word) that other people had to be taken into account. 

Nowt so queer as folk.

I hope today goes well.


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## tiahatti (4 December 2019)

Have you messaged to ask what  time she is coming?  I hope this is resolved for you today.


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## tristar (4 December 2019)

or you could say you have sold the horse to someone else yesterday, and provoke them into requesting the return of their money,  or say as you can no longer afford to keep the horse it has gone on loan to scotland so would they mind paying the livery they owe?   send a text three times a day

to be honest they owe you the livery

i sometimes have to be firm with people over deals, just to get them to jump   one way or the other or they would be  dithering forever, not in a nasty way but holding their hand whilst guiding them to conclusion


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## Hormonal Filly (4 December 2019)

MrsMozartletoe said:



			Late to the party
		
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Me too! Red the entire post with a slightly confused, bizarre face..

What a strange situation you don't expect yourself to be in, once a deposit is paid or the full amount I'd expect the buyer to be so excited to collect said horse they'd be desperate to arrange a date!
I assume you have had to keep the horse in work for those 10 weeks as well?

Wonder if she turns up today...


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## Asha (4 December 2019)

its a very strange story. Personally id send her the money back and re advertise the horse. The only time this would be acceptable would be that shes had some bad luck and needs to get things sorted, but then you would expect to be kept in the loop.  Not full disclosure, just a call explaining somethings gone wrong, and we will sort asap. Someone who shows so little thought as to the inconvenience she is causing wouldn't be allowed to buy any of mine. Plus as other have said, she should be very excited at the prospect of getting a new horse. Is she a dealer ?


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## Fransurrey (4 December 2019)

I would just re-advertise and wait to see if she contacts you. My money is going on a no show.


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## puppystitch (4 December 2019)

What a strange situation! I don't think she'll turn up today, but if she does WE HAVE QUESTIONS!


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## HappyHorses:) (4 December 2019)

Sadly nothing surprises me in the horse world anymore. 
Saying that, expecting someone to care and pay for a horse you have bought for ten weeks is a monumental pee pee take!


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## Cowpony (4 December 2019)

Lois Lame said:



			It's interesting isn't it.

Anyhow I reckon it would make a good novel but we need something mysterious as to why the would-be purchaser isn't picking up the horse when she has her own 60 box yard (gad). It can't just be that she's too busy due to Christmas (what my husband suggested!).
		
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The banal answer would be that she bought the horse before the finances/stable/transport were in place, because she didn't want to lose the horse and had no thought whatsoever for the seller.

But the fun answer is that she put the deposit down fully intending to buy the horse immediately, but was kidnapped by her wicked Uncle Jasper who wanted her father to compensate him for diddling him out of their father's inheritance.  She managed to escape, but found that she was being held on a remote island in the Indian ocean and had to swim shark-infested waters to get to the mainland.  There, she had no money for a flight home or a phone to call anybody, so she was about to start hitchhiking back to the UK when she spotted some orphans being mistreated by a slave-owner.  She intervened and managed to save the orphans, but then had to help them find their way to their kindly Auntie, who would look after them.  She got them to their relative, but found that Auntie was about to lose her farm to a logging company, so she infiltrated the company to foil their plans.  She then set off for the UK but.......


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## MagicMelon (4 December 2019)

Toby_Zaphod said:



			I would text them informing them that although they purchased the horse on ? date in September & eventually paid for it on ? date you have been paying for the livery of the horse that no longer belongs to you but belongs to them for the last 10 weeks. I would bill them for livery from the day they purchased the horse, not the day they paid, until the present. Charge a reasonable amount, not the Â£1500 a week as said by one member. Then if they want to cause any issue with you you can always void the sale, as they have repeatedly failed to collect the horse & then deduct the livery costs from the money they paid & refund them any left over. Even if they eventually turn up for the horse they will need to bring more money with them to make up the purchase price as livery will have been deducted. They cannot expect you to look after the horse for 10 weeks for free.
		
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Pretty sure legally they cant take it upon themselves to void the sale unless they refund the money in full. IMO until they pay in full then they dont own the horse until that point. Id have sent them a letter stating a set date ages ago that they'd have to have paid in full by and the date the horse must have been picked up. Id worry they didnt want the horse after all this faff though... I think I'd probably refund their money minus the deposit and just re-advertise the horse as I personally wouldnt want someone like that buying my much loved horse...


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## Amymay (4 December 2019)

Paying in full does not = purchaser owns the horse, unless the money is accepted.

OP can void the sale, but must refund 100% of the monies.  Anything they feel they are owed must be claimed for via court action.


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## Velcrobum (4 December 2019)

Update?????


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## tonigin (4 December 2019)

Sorry its a late update, heard nothing all day and at 6 had a phone call to say she be picked up about 9 tonight, so sat waiting.


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## Amymay (4 December 2019)

tonigin said:



			Sorry its a late update, heard nothing all day and at 6 had a phone call to say she be picked up about 9 tonight, so sat waiting.
		
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Dear lord, you poor woman.   We’ll all be waiting with baited breath.....


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## Surbie (4 December 2019)

tonigin said:



			Sorry its a late update, heard nothing all day and at 6 had a phone call to say she be picked up about 9 tonight, so sat waiting.
		
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Just 40 more mins...

Hope she turns up.


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## Bellaboo18 (4 December 2019)

tonigin said:



			Sorry its a late update, heard nothing all day and at 6 had a phone call to say she be picked up about 9 tonight, so sat waiting.
		
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Sorry you're being messed about like this! Keep us updated x


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## SatansLittleHelper (4 December 2019)

Who picks a horse up at 9pm...?!


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## Happy Hunter (4 December 2019)

tonigin said:



			Sorry its a late update, heard nothing all day and at 6 had a phone call to say she be picked up about 9 tonight, so sat waiting.
		
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Flipping Nora that's late!!! Best of luck op


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## MrsMozart (4 December 2019)

Blinking heck with bells on lass.


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## be positive (4 December 2019)

SatansLittleHelper said:



			Who picks a horse up at 9pm...?!
		
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And why??


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## The Fuzzy Furry (4 December 2019)

tonigin said:



			Sorry its a late update, heard nothing all day and at 6 had a phone call to say she be picked up about 9 tonight, so sat waiting.
		
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If this isn't a wind up,  I hope you ask for proof of payment from buyer before horse is loaded.


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## Melody Grey (4 December 2019)

Let the purchaser load it in the dark op- not a risk you want!


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## pixie (4 December 2019)

WTAF!!!!


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## HappyHorses:) (4 December 2019)

I actually wish this was a wind up.


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## Ranyhyn (4 December 2019)

I feel fully invested in the outcome of this saga


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## tonigin (4 December 2019)

Still sat waiting for them to arrive.


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## holeymoley (4 December 2019)

The poor horse.


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## Amymay (4 December 2019)

tonigin said:



			Still sat waiting for them to arrive.
		
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At nearly 9.30  - I’d tell them to jog on!


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## lilly1 (4 December 2019)

It just gets stranger and stranger 😧


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## doodle (4 December 2019)

They are not coming. Refund money minus the deposit and move on. Im not sure why you are still allowing it to drag on.


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## catembi (4 December 2019)

Oh gosh, I hope you refund and resell to someone who will love and cherish him or her as much as you have!  If she can't be bothered to pick the horse up, then how much love will she put into his or her care?  Most of us would be climbing the walls with excitement if we were picking up a new horse & going a bit spendy on rugs, head collars etc...!


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## Michen (4 December 2019)

I’m not even sure I believe this 🙈


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## Archangel (4 December 2019)

Have you stalked checked up on the buyer on Facebook? 
Does the livery yard have a website?

Must be a transporter on a shared load picking a horse up that late but how rude to think you can just hang around at the yard that late.   I wouldn't want a horse of mind traveling that late. It's bedtime!


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## twiggy2 (4 December 2019)

And?


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## Melody Grey (4 December 2019)

Agreed a transporter might operate this late, particularly if it’s longhaul but even then, I’ve had companies time their arrival practically down to the minute! It’s not impossible to be professional or even polite when dealing with people!!


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## Melody Grey (4 December 2019)

Oops- posted twice in my fury!


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## tallyho! (4 December 2019)

Oh! I couldn't go through with this one.. OP you must have a strong disposition... couldn't possibly have let my horse go to this apparent abyss.


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## Pinkvboots (4 December 2019)

I would be so angry there is no way I would let them have the horse now, who behaves and treats people like that.


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## Amymay (4 December 2019)

Hopefully op you’ve closed the curtains, turned off the lights and gone to bed.

Refund the money tomorrow and start again.


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## Chuffy99 (4 December 2019)

I’ve been thinking the same as Michen for the last two pages


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## ElectricChampagne (4 December 2019)

Late to the game here too. What a crappy thing to do! 
I wouldn't have been as patient. 
I'm wondering if they bought the horse as a Christmas present and expected you to look after it until then?  Probably not! 

Dying to know if she did collect now..


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## Equi (4 December 2019)

ElectricXmasTree said:



			Late to the game here too. What a crappy thing to do!
I wouldn't have been as patient.
I'm wondering if they bought the horse as a Christmas present and expected you to look after it until then?  Probably not!

Dying to know if she did collect now..
		
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That’s the sort of line I was thinking on.


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## PeterNatt (4 December 2019)

This whole thread is an excellent festive wind-up.


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## tonigin (4 December 2019)

Well she has been collected, so all sorted, they have promised to keep in touch, and i certainly don't doubt will be well looked after and cared for, feeling very sad and drained.  

Thank you all for your support and advice it was appreciated very much,  I guess a big lesson learnt is put everything in writing time limits, costs if not collected/delays etc then all parties know where they stand.


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## tonigin (4 December 2019)

I can promise you this is not and has not been a wind up, if someone wants to message me am more than happy to prove it.


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## fiwen30 (4 December 2019)

tonigin said:



			Well she has been collected, so all sorted, they have promised to keep in touch, and i certainly don't doubt will be well looked after and cared for, feeling very sad and drained.  

Thank you all for your support and advice it was appreciated very much,  I guess a big lesson learnt is put everything in writing time limits, costs if not collected/delays etc then all parties know where they stand.
		
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‘Promised to keep in touch’, when you had their horse for so many weeks, and you didn’t hear a peep from them? That’s funny. Glad it all seems to be resolved.


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## Tagoat (4 December 2019)

"I can promise you this is not and has not been a wind up " .............................Hmmmmmmm.  Indeedy.


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## Lois Lame (5 December 2019)

I don't think it's fair to suggest this stuff was a wind-up. That's adding insult to injury.

Well done Tonigin for surviving this tosser of a buyer.


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## Ambers Echo (5 December 2019)

I also don't think it's fair to worry the OP that the horse won't be cared for. The horsey world is full of odd folk who are pretty awful with people but still give their horses everything they could ever need.


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## Amymay (5 December 2019)

Yaayy


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## stormox (5 December 2019)

I suppose it could have been a transporter who picked up after delivering a load of horses, maybe they were off a ferry, I know the Irish horses are often delivered during the night or early morning. Glad all is sorted.


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## Ranyhyn (5 December 2019)

This has been more interesting than the telly of late,  glad its resolved now.


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## Jill's Gym Karma (5 December 2019)

Don't underestimate how many people there are out there who lead completely disorganised, chaotic, self-centred, insular lives and who genuinely have no concept of how their actions impact on others.


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## ElectricChampagne (5 December 2019)

Jill's Gym Karma said:



			Don't underestimate how many people there are out there who lead completely disorganised, chaotic, self-centred, insular lives and who genuinely have no concept of how their actions impact on others.
		
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This 100%! the buyer probably thought it is absolutely reasonable to do what she did, and how dare a seller behave this way...


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## AShetlandBitMeOnce (5 December 2019)

I would imagine that if the buyer has a 60 box yard, she has a fir few of her own already and probably thought 'what's the bother of having a sold one sat in the field for a few more weeks'. As has been said above, it's incredible how inconsiderate some people really are. 

Glad the saga is over for you OP - onwards and upwards now!


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