# How Much????



## Ballerina (26 April 2017)

I've got a mare on loan and would like to know your views how much she's worth as been asked if I'd like to buy her. 
16.1hh 
Mare 
13 years old 
Ex show jumper 1.40 can't jump this no more
Sweet natured 
Quirky to ride 
Has had colic surgery 
Has slight twisted pelvis 
Nut job on a hack 
Quite spooky 
Defo not a novice ride
Does dish unite in canter 
Can be naughty being lead in/ out of field. 
Weaves in stable/ trailer/ when tied up. 
I love his mare to bits and has come on leaps and bounds. 

They have said £2000 but I  think a lot less as I've spent a fortune on a saddle that fits, pysio teeth ect .


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## ycbm (26 April 2017)

Meat money. Unsellable. Won't pass a vet. Only worth what someone will pay. Frankly I'd expect her to be gifted to you for a token pound.


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## Tash88 (26 April 2017)

Definitely less than that as it sounds like you have put a lot of work into her, plus it doesn't sound like many people would get on with her as you do. It's difficult though, what do you think the owners would be like to negotiate with? Do you think they'd threaten to take her back if you don't buy her at the price they set?

Given her medical history and her quirks I would say £1k at the very maximum. If I were the owners I would be giving her to you for a token amount, but unfortunately it doesn't sound like they are like that.

Good luck.


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## Ballerina (26 April 2017)

ycbm said:



			Meat money. Unsellable. Won't pass a vet. Only worth what someone will pay. Frankly I'd expect her to be gifted to you for a token pound.
		
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Id love it if they did, I've really got a bond with her


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## Ballerina (26 April 2017)

They asked some one else so haven't asked me directly YET, don't think they would take her off me as its not the money with them , just don't think they want her back . If they ask me directly then I'd put an offer in but wanted a round about mark from u lovely people


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## Gloi (26 April 2017)

They should be glad you are willing to take her, they'd struggle to find a home otherwise. Token price so you can say you bought her but no more.


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## milliepops (26 April 2017)

ycbm said:



			Meat money. Unsellable. Won't pass a vet. Only worth what someone will pay. Frankly I'd expect her to be gifted to you for a token pound.
		
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I'd possibly be a little less blunt but do agree with this 

£2k sound much much too high and I very much doubt they'd raise that from anyone if she is as you describe... If you were feeling generous then I'd be looking at a figure in the hundreds, not thousands, personally.


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## ycbm (26 April 2017)

milliepops said:



			I'd possibly be a little less blunt but do agree with this 

£2k sound much much too high and I very much doubt they'd raise that from anyone if she is as you describe... If you were feeling generous then I'd be looking at a figure in the hundreds, not thousands, personally.
		
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Why use 40 words when 26 did the job  ?


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## Frumpoon (26 April 2017)

I bought a 19 year old jumping horse 3 years ago, she's quirky too, not perfect but gets me out of trouble and has been literally the best and soundest horse I've ever had in 30 years

I paid £2k and I'd pay it all over again

If I were in your shoes I'd pay the £2k and count my lucky stars I'd got such a good quality horse


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## Goldenstar (26 April 2017)

TBH they should sell you the horse for a pound be thankful she has found someone to love her .
However how low can you go without being insulting and causing a fuss that's the question .
Are really sure you want to buy her ?


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## Gloi (26 April 2017)

Frumpoon said:



			I bought a 19 year old jumping horse 3 years ago, she's quirky too, not perfect but gets me out of trouble and has been literally the best and soundest horse I've ever had in 30 years

I paid £2k and I'd pay it all over again

If I were in your shoes I'd pay the £2k and count my lucky stars I'd got such a good quality horse
		
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Yours is sound though, this one isn't.


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## Cortez (26 April 2017)

The work & maintenance you've put into her don't count I'm afraid, and your assessment of her is yours alone, so that doesn't count either. On the open market a 13 year old, 16.1h sports horse with quirks is probably reasonably fairly priced at £2,000. Make an offer if you want her, or be prepared let someone else buy her. Also, I didn't see the part where she's not sound?


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## Frumpoon (26 April 2017)

Is it not sound? Sorry I missed that bit in the original post

How is she unsound OP?


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## ycbm (26 April 2017)

Cortez said:



			The work & maintenance you've put into her don't count I'm afraid, and your assessment of her is yours alone, so that doesn't count either. On the open market a 13 year old, 16.1h sports horse with quirks is probably reasonably fairly priced at £2,000. Make an offer if you want her, or be prepared let someone else buy her. Also, I didn't see the part where she's not sound?
		
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Twisted pelvis Cortez? Disunites in canter. Most vets I know wouldn't pass that for doing anything than light work, especially after a career jumping
 1m 40 when it won't/can't now jump that height and is only 13.  And the horse is a 'nut job' to hack and bad to even lead in hand.


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## Luci07 (26 April 2017)

And while you say no longer a 1m 40m horse, does this mean she would take round a 1m 20? Because that would impact her pricing


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## Ballerina (26 April 2017)

She was a jumper no proper schooling and she was good at it until her pelvis problem, the owners love her to bits and think she's worth her weight in gold which in a way she is as she loves to work but has crap conforMtion due to old injuries but is old. She's mad and I love it not dangerous, I do think she's worth a grand and I'm going to do the wobbleberry challenge on her this year . She will jump anything and never refuse but schooling wise is shocking and I'll have to just hope and prey she doesn't get problems with her back when in the long run. The deal was  for me to loan.


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## Amymay (26 April 2017)

ycbm said:



			Meat money. Unsellable. Won't pass a vet. Only worth what someone will pay. Frankly I'd expect her to be gifted to you for a token pound.
		
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I agree &#128017;&#128017;


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## Frumpoon (26 April 2017)

Twisted pelvis is questionable, could be worked on by a decent vet physio

The handling and hacking issues would not even feature as a concern to the jumping people I know, if it jumps it has a decent value. If it isn't a 1.40 horse anymore but clears 90-1m, she's still worth a good £5-10k


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## ihatework (26 April 2017)

With a slight twist to the pelvis and goes disunited in canter I would very much suspect this horse is unsound. OP i would have a vet check on this horse before you proceed

Out of interest what level is the horse currently competing at?


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## Ballerina (26 April 2017)

If u watch her trotting she looks stiff . Well I only jump 90cm courses and since her colic surgery 2years ago I don't think she's jumped bigs tracks. My pysio has said she will be ok jumping tracks of 1m but not any bigger .


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## ycbm (26 April 2017)

Ballerina said:



			She was a jumper no proper schooling and she was good at it until her pelvis problem, the owners love her to bits and think she's worth her weight in gold which in a way she is as she loves to work but has crap conforMtion due to old injuries but is old. She's mad and I love it not dangerous, I do think she's worth a grand and I'm going to do the wobbleberry challenge on her this year . She will jump anything and never refuse but schooling wise is shocking and I'll have to just hope and prey she doesn't get problems with her back when in the long run. The deal was  for me to loan.
		
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She's disunited in canter with a twisted pelvis. Sounds like she's already got back problems to me, sorry. If you buy her, she could be a walking vet bill. If you were a friend of mine I'd be trying vet hard to dissuade you.


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## Cortez (26 April 2017)

ycbm said:



			Twisted pelvis Cortez? Disunites in canter. Most vets I know wouldn't pass that for doing anything than light work, especially after a career jumping
 1m 40 when it won't/can't now jump that height and is only 13.  And the horse is a 'nut job' to hack and bad to even lead in hand.
		
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Diagnosed? Disuniting in canter can be anything from a weak rider to an unfit, unbalanced horse. And what's a "twisted" pelvis?


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## Frumpoon (26 April 2017)

When you say she was a 1.40 horse was she jumping a full course of 1m 40 or just one single fence


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## ycbm (26 April 2017)

Frumpoon said:



			Twisted pelvis is questionable, could be worked on by a decent vet physio

The handling and hacking issues would not even feature as a concern to the jumping people I know, if it jumps it has a decent value. If it isn't a 1.40 horse anymore but clears 90-1m, she's still worth a good £5-10k
		
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Stiff in trot with a twisted pelvis and cantering disunited?  Surely you are joking? Practically any horse can jump 90cm.


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## Ballerina (26 April 2017)

All the issues isn't a problem for me, I think she's funny and got a personality. All I was asking was roughly the value of that type of horse on the market .


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## ycbm (26 April 2017)

Cortez said:



			Diagnosed? Disuniting in canter can be anything from a weak rider to an unfit, unbalanced horse. And what's a "twisted" pelvis?
		
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I'm surprised that you haven't seen any?

A twisted pelvis has one hip point routinely carried further forward and/or higher than the other. A friend of mine paid a lot of money for a well bred two year old filly with it, on the assurance that it would come right with training. It didn't, and the mare broke down and was retired at eight.

I had one fail a vet on it. Quite coincidentally it later turned up as a livery at the same stables as me and it never looked right behind. I rode it and it felt wrong and was very unsteady in the head, which I felt was connected.


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## Flyermc (26 April 2017)

i personally think this horse is worth 2k.

Any horse can break and one who will jump anything, even upto 1m has got to be worth 2k. We paid over 1k for a lame unschooled cob after having him on trail for 2 weeks, it was the best thing we ever did 

If you love her, she'll be worth every penny!


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## ycbm (26 April 2017)

Ballerina said:



			All the issues isn't a problem for me, I think she's funny and got a personality. All I was asking was roughly the value of that type of horse on the market .
		
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On the open market she would be hard to sell at all, in my opinion.

She is, however, worth whatever you personally are prepared to pay for her.


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## ycbm (26 April 2017)

Flyermc said:



			i personally think this horse is worth 2k.

Any horse can break and one who will jump anything, even upto 1m has got to be worth 2k. We paid over 1k for a lame unschooled cob after having him on trail for 2 weeks, it was the best thing we ever did 

If you love her, she'll be worth every penny!
		
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Most horses can jump anything up to a metre, it's the riders that can't !  (Including me now I'm old!)


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## Ballerina (26 April 2017)

She was jumping 1.40 courses. Until her colic surgery (not with me) I'm a leisure rider so she's happy and content with me .


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## Palindrome (26 April 2017)

I think the twisted pelvis is a physio wording, not an actual medical condition. Was it diagnosed by a vet or physio?
My horse's physio has "adjusted" her pelvis when she thought her hips weren't sitting level. I don't think the pelvis can actually be twisted though.


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## ycbm (26 April 2017)

Palindrome said:



			I think the twisted pelvis is a physio wording, not an actual medical condition. Was it diagnosed by a vet or physio?
My horse's physio has "adjusted" her pelvis when she thought her hips weren't sitting level. I don't think the pelvis can actually be twisted though.
		
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In relation to the rest of the body, of course it can. I've seen two like it for years, unable to be corrected by any manipulation. Both horses would fail a vet.

This horse has had colic surgery, been hoisted by her legs onto an operating table and then into a recovery room, and who knows what she did as she came round. If the twisted pelvis relates to the timing of the colic surgery I'd be even more concerned about it.

Has there been any known incident OP?  Was the timing from the colic surgery, or there before?


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## MotherOfChickens (26 April 2017)

a grand-I would hope that owners would gift her but given she's had colic surgery (biggest issue for me) and she's 13, no more than a grand (because I think all horses should have a basic value). she sounds like a walking vet's bill if as described.


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## Flyermc (26 April 2017)

ycbm said:



			Most horses can jump anything up to a metre, it's the riders that can't !  (Including me now I'm old!)
		
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Im not convinced flyer would be too pleased to do a course of jumps at 1m, im guessing it would include jump fillers (that he hates) and doubles etc, etc. Im not saying he wouldnt, but he'd be very unlikely to do it without alot of encouragement and i doubt would particularly enjoy it.

Anyway, going off topic!

OP if she's the right horse for you, she'll be worth every penny!!


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## Frumpoon (26 April 2017)

ycbm said:



			Stiff in trot with a twisted pelvis and cantering disunited?  Surely you are joking? Practically any horse can jump 90cm.
		
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Define twisted pelvis

Yes lots of horses can jump one fence of 90cm, a lot less can jump a course of 90cm with twists, turns, doubles and skinnies 

A horse than can commands a premium


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## ycbm (26 April 2017)

Frumpoon said:



			Define twisted pelvis
		
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Did you miss it?


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## Frumpoon (26 April 2017)

It has a number of meanings is what I mean


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## Ballerina (26 April 2017)

All this stuff that's wron with her never happened with me and I've never had any problems with her whilst in my care, her striding is more floating and tracks up very well, in canter she's starting to sway her back and engaging hindquarters properly also staying in an outline, all of this I've achieved from her, she was working the opposite when I first got her


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## ycbm (26 April 2017)

If you intend to buy her, please get her vetted.


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## millitiger (26 April 2017)

Without an actual diagnosis of the pelvis, no one on here can really comment imo.
Physios use this terminology so frequently and loosely without explaining what they actually mean, as well as frequently hearing about pelvises which are 'out'

Disregarding that issue as we don't know the details, the mare is easily worth £2k with her jumping and schoolmistress experience (op is more novice and mare is taking her around 90cm courses easily and confidently).
The slight quirks of hacking etc are fairly common with higher level comp horses and again, may be less of an issue for an experienced rider.


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## Frumpoon (26 April 2017)

millitiger said:



			Without an actual diagnosis of the pelvis, no one on here can really comment imo.
Physios use this terminology so frequently and loosely without explaining what they actually mean, as well as frequently hearing about pelvises which are 'out'

Disregarding that issue as we don't know the details, the mare is easily worth £2k with her jumping and schoolmistress experience (op is more novice and mare is taking her around 90cm courses easily and confidently).
The slight quirks of hacking etc are fairly common with higher level comp horses and again, may be less of an issue for an experienced rider.
		
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This


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## Ballerina (26 April 2017)

So if owner approaches me, I'm now thinking of 1,000-2,000 , thank u for your help .&#128522;


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## ycbm (26 April 2017)

They have said £2000 but I think a lot less as I've spent a fortune on a saddle that fits, pysio teeth ect .
		
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Ballerina said:



			So if owner approaches me, I'm now thinking of 1,000-2,000 ,
		
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They have already?  Confused.


Please get her vetted.


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## Ballerina (26 April 2017)

They said to a friend of mine about me buying but not me directly yet .


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## ycbm (26 April 2017)

Are you going to get her vetted?


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## Ballerina (26 April 2017)

Yer but what stage do I go for and how much r they ?


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## ycbm (26 April 2017)

Definitely five stage £250 round here.


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## Regandal (26 April 2017)

I bought my old boy from our YO.  An 11 year old experienced, mannerly hunter.  17.2 hh of rippling, gorgeous ISH, fabulous horse.  I got him for £600 as 'he won't pass the vet'.   Luckily, he didn't break, but I don't think I'd take that chance again.  Please get this mare vetted.


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## Casey76 (27 April 2017)

I wouldn't buy her based upon the previous colic surgery.  What type of colic did she have, what kind and how extensive a surgery, how much intestine was removed (if any).

Personally I wouldn't buy anything with current and ongoing problems.  The purchase price is just the beginning - why buy something with issues, when you could buy something without?


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## TotalMadgeness (27 April 2017)

If you really like her I'd maybe offer £500 to start with and agree on £1K if it gets to that. But I'd get her vetted first because of the colic history & disuniting in canter.


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## Corbie (27 April 2017)

What would you want to get out of a horse of your own?  You have a bond with her which is obviously based on some of her attributes which you like.  So she has some issues, but tbh looking at horses priced around this amount of money they all have something less than desirable.  She's still relatively young and if you aren't wanting a competition winner, but she fits the bill in other ways.....she is surely worth at least £1500 from What you describe.


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## TTK (27 April 2017)

Casey76 said:



			I wouldn't buy her based upon the previous colic surgery.  What type of colic did she have, what kind and how extensive a surgery, how much intestine was removed (if any).
		
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I agree with Casey. I would never buy a horse that has had colic surgery. Why not just continue to loan the horse. If she is unsaleable, then you can continue as you are.


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## Gloi (27 April 2017)

Totally agree. They are unlikely to be able to sell her to anyone else.


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## ycbm (27 April 2017)

Without an actual diagnosis of the pelvis, no one on here can really comment imo.
		
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Well that would be one way to kill the forum 

Or we could all take the OP at her word that the horse has, for a long time, and therefore presumably permanently, a pelvis where one hip bone is noticeably either further forward, or higher, or both, than the other. 

That would be a lot more fun, wouldn't it? It would allow us all to discuss the implications of that.

Personally,  I would not buy a horse with this condition and I would not use a vet who would pass a horse with this condition for eventing. I've seen only two and both were crocks at eight years old.

I wouldn't buy one that's had colic surgery, or nasty to handle on the ground, or a 'nut job' to hack either. I'm both fascinated and shocked by how many people on the forum say they/other people would buy all those problems in one horse, on the strength that it currently jumps 80/90cm nicely. Back in my days of selling, that was the minimum anyone expected of a riding club level horse.

I hope to goodness that the OP has the horse vetted, though she's gone silent after getting the  information of how much it's going cost.


OP will you please keep us updated?


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## Ballerina (27 April 2017)

She might not be everyone's taste of horse but she is mine, I have mc Timothy chiropractor out to see her on regular visits and for what I want to do with the horse is fine and she's in no pain , yes one hip is higher then the other and been like that a long time. I will keep u all updated.


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## FfionWinnie (27 April 2017)

If she's a really school mistress and capable of doing her job, health issues which are managed are often expected and they still command a highish value compared to another horse which hasn't got the competition record. 

Personally I wouldn't vet her, far better to save the £250 and tell yourself she will be yours until she's not able to live happily and that's the pts fund. 

They probably want absolved of the responsibility of her so tell them you love her and would love to own her but re the health issues blah blah and hopefully they may suggest a low sale price to make it official. You can always up your offer so don't go in guns blazing.


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## Ballerina (27 April 2017)

FfionWinnie said:



			If she's a really school mistress and capable of doing her job, health issues which are managed are often expected and they still command a highish value compared to another horse which hasn't got the competition record. 

Personally I wouldn't vet her, far better to save the £250 and tell yourself she will be yours until she's not able to live happily and that's the pts fund. 

They probably want absolved of the responsibility of her so tell them you love her and would love to own her but re the health issues blah blah and hopefully they may suggest a low sale price to make it official. You can always up your offer so don't go in guns blazing.
		
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This this idea


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## ycbm (27 April 2017)

FW that strategy is fine for you. You own land and you have multiple horses around. It's fine for me to, I would probably put the horse down if she become unable to work.

OP, if you decide to take FW's advice and buy unvetted, I'd advise you to ask yourself how many years you would be prepared to keep her as a paddock ornament if she becomes unsound. Or whether you would be prepared to put down a horse whose only real problem is that it can't be ridden.

You might need to bear in mind also that she is probably uninsurable for any problem relating to her digestive system or any hind limb lameness.

It's clear how much you love her, and she's a very lucky girl to have you.


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## Apercrumbie (27 April 2017)

I would get a vetting done before agreeing a price. I would want to talk to the vet about the previous colic and how likely it is to reoccur. Otherwise, she could easily be worth £2k but easily could be worth less. If she isn't sound, there is no way she's worth that.


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## FfionWinnie (27 April 2017)

If you pay hundreds not thousands for her and are willing to pts rather than keep as an unsound pet what have you got to lose. You'd have to realise she could go on for a year or five doing the job you want her for (or a month!) but that's the risk you take with any horse.  Will the out come of the vetting change your mind that is the question to ask yourself. If it would then yes, vet her. If you are having her regardless I don't see the point of spending 250 on something that's only going tell you the horse is a horse that needs special care. 

An insurance exclusion like this one would be worth having if she didn't cost the earth. It costs 400 a year to insure a 2k horse after all!  It depends how much you value what she gives you as to what you are willing to pay for it and likely not get back. 

Really tho you can't sink any amount of money into a horse and expect to break even down the line. You are lucky if you do and even luckier if you have anything you can remotely call a profit. Some you win some you lose that is horses however many vettings and x rays you do!


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## Ballerina (27 April 2017)

I doubt she'll pass a vetting but then what do I do if she doesn't ?


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## FfionWinnie (27 April 2017)

The only thing you can use a failed vetting for is a bargaining chip if they want a lot of money for her.  Really you're going to have to take the bull by the er horns.  Or just let sleeping dogs lie and hope you can keep her long term on loan.


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## npage123 (27 April 2017)

FfionWinnie said:



			The only thing you can use a failed vetting for is a bargaining chip if they want a lot of money for her.  Really you're going to have to take the bull by the er horns.  Or just let sleeping dogs lie and hope you can keep her long term on loan.
		
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I agree with FfionWinnie.

Also bear in mind that the ongoing upkeep/maintenance of a horse to a good standard (think livery cost, feed, bedding, vaccinations, saddler, farrier, equine dentist, any other form of therapeutic treatment etc) and surprisingly soon you'll overtake the buying cost of a horse, even if you paid thousands for it.  And that's for a horse without any medical problems.


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## ycbm (27 April 2017)

FfionWinnie said:



			The only thing you can use a failed vetting for is a bargaining chip if they want a lot of money for her.  Really you're going to have to take the bull by the er horns.  Or just let sleeping dogs lie and hope you can keep her long term on loan.
		
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If the vet tells you you'd be mad to buy her because she is already lame, you can use a failed vetting to avoid a VERY expensive and emotionally upsetting mistake.


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## ycbm (27 April 2017)

Ballerina said:



			I doubt she'll pass a vetting but then what do I do if she doesn't ?
		
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Are you really thinking of spending two thousand pounds on a horse that you don't believe will pass a vet?


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## be positive (27 April 2017)

ycbm said:



			Are you really thinking of spending two thousand pounds on a horse that you don't believe will pass a vet?
		
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If you don't believe she will pass the vetting then there is no point in having one, the logic is flawed if your decision to buy will be based on the result of the vetting. 

In some ways the mare may be worth £2k but with her many "faults" she is equally completely worthless, to the OP she may have a "value" but if she were mine and I was prepared to sell her on rather than loan, then I would gift her to the OP and hope she never got passed on but in reality I would not sell if she were mine.


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## Ballerina (27 April 2017)

I'm happy to keep loaning as she's doing the job I'm asking of her and she loves work. She likes routine and that's what she's got with me. No I wouldn't pay £2000 for a horse with problems that's y I came on here to find out what price horses sell with her history. This post has gone from asking what price to twisted pelvis to vetting lol , madness &#128514;


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## ycbm (27 April 2017)

Ballerina said:



			I'm happy to keep loaning as she's doing the job I'm asking of her and she loves work. She likes routine and that's what she's got with me. No I wouldn't pay £2000 for a horse with problems that's y I came on here to find out what price horses sell with herhistory. This post has gone from asking what price to twisted pelvis to vetting lol , madness &#55357;&#56834;
		
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But you posted a few posts ago that you were going to go back to the owners and offer £1000  -£2000

Then you posted she won't pass a vet.  That's the madness, not the advice you've had on this thread!  

You love the horse. If you can afford it and the bills it may throw at you, just buy it. 

I stick by my first post, it's not, imo, worth more than meat money, from the information that you have given.


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## only_me (27 April 2017)

Frumpoon said:



			Yes lots of horses can jump one fence of 90cm, a lot less can jump a course of 90cm with twists, turns, doubles and skinnies 

A horse than can commands a premium
		
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I would expect any horse to be able to jump a course of 90cm. Including doubles etc. 

I would expect a 4 year old horse to pop round a course of 90cm. I wouldn't expect to jump any skinnier unless winged and more experienced/end of year and also with minimal fillers, but jumping a course isn't a difficult task. Obviously it will not be perfect but 90cm isn't big and shouldn't Be an issue.

Tbh I'd be wary of a horse that couldn't jump a course of 90cm, unless injury etc. I expect even valegro could jump a course of 90cms!

I definitely don't agree that there is a premium on those that can jump a course of 90cms - unless a true schoolmaster and those are very rare.


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## LadySam (28 April 2017)

FfionWinnie said:



			Really tho you can't sink any amount of money into a horse and expect to break even down the line. You are lucky if you do and even luckier if you have anything you can remotely call a profit. Some you win some you lose that is horses however many vettings and x rays you do!
		
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Profit?  What is this profit you speak of? 

Going back to your original question, OP, what would _I_ pay for her?  Objectively, not knowing this horse - more than meat money, but not much more.  In your shoes?  Double meat money, maybe up to 1K (but would keep that to myself when negotiating).

2K is a bit high for this one, I think.  Hard to say not seeing it, of course.  You say the owners love her and think she's worth her weight in gold, so I expect the asking price is rather influenced by that.  You have a good case for keeping the price low, given her faults.  As FW said, the inability to pass a vetting is a bargaining chip.


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## Frumpoon (28 April 2017)

only_me said:



			I would expect any horse to be able to jump a course of 90cm. Including doubles etc. 

I would expect a 4 year old horse to pop round a course of 90cm. I wouldn't expect to jump any skinnier unless winged and more experienced/end of year and also with minimal fillers, but jumping a course isn't a difficult task. Obviously it will not be perfect but 90cm isn't big and shouldn't Be an issue.

Tbh I'd be wary of a horse that couldn't jump a course of 90cm, unless injury etc. I expect even valegro could jump a course of 90cms!

I definitely don't agree that there is a premium on those that can jump a course of 90cms - unless a true schoolmaster and those are very rare.
		
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I went out on Tuesday, first competitive outing of the year, first class 70cm and of 20 starters there was one clear


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## Vodkagirly (28 April 2017)

LadySam said:



			Profit?  What is this profit you speak of? 

Going back to your original question, OP, what would _I_ pay for her?  Objectively, not knowing this horse - more than meat money, but not much more.  In your shoes?  Double meat money, maybe up to 1K (but would keep that to myself when negotiating).

2K is a bit high for this one, I think.  Hard to say not seeing it, of course.  You say the owners love her and think she's worth her weight in gold, so I expect the asking price is rather influenced by that.  You have a good case for keeping the price low, given her faults.  As FW said, the inability to pass a vetting is a bargaining chip.
		
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Frumpoon said:



			I went out on Tuesday, first competitive outing of the year, first class 70cm and of 20 starters there was one clear
		
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Exactly,  I was going to say that most ua jumping will show a lot of horses that can't /won't go clear at 60 let alone 90


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## OldNag (28 April 2017)

Surely she has a very limited market, so that gives you bargaining power. I know I wouldn't buy one that has had colic surgery.  

If she won't pass a vetting, I wouldn't buy, sorry.  But that's just one point of view. 
Hope it all works out for you, OP.


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## ycbm (28 April 2017)

Vodkagirly said:



			Exactly,  I was going to say that most ua jumping will show a lot of horses that can't /won't go clear at 60 let alone 90
		
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That's the riders, not the horses!

I love seeing people out and about doing stuff like this and W&T dressage tests, but I'm surprised by the low expectations of many horse buyers these days.

IMO, there's nothing special about a horse which can jump two foot nine. Before I gave up selling the odd one or two, it was simply expected that any horse sold as a riding cub level horse would jump a course at two foot nine. At shows, there was no class lower that two foot nine. That's also why 1m 10 at BE is called 'Novice', it was considered the beginner's class, there was no 80, 90 or 100.


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## DabDab (28 April 2017)

ycbm said:



			That's the riders, not the horses!

I love seeing people out and about doing stuff like this and W&T dressage tests, but I'm surprised by the low expectations of many horse buyers these days.

IMO, there's nothing special about a horse which can jump two foot nine. Before I gave up selling the odd one or two, it was simply expected that any horse sold as a riding cub level horse would jump a course at two foot nine. At shows, there was no class lower that two foot nine. That's also why 1m 10 at BE is called 'Novice', it was considered the beginner's class, there was no 80, 90 or 100.
		
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But I think that's the point - there's a big difference between a horse that can physically get round a 90 course and one that will take a rider round. The latter is what people are actually looking for


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## FfionWinnie (28 April 2017)

The other point is with a horse like this you are paying for what it has done and can do for you. You might not have it for a long time and you might have to spend a fortune maintaining it so it can do it for you, but if you want one that is going to do this job and have no issues then you are looking at 20k + If you can even find one. Some of us cannot afford the perfect school master and along with that, someone needs to give these horses a nice life so as long as the op doesn't bankrupt herself buying it and is financially able to either keep it as a pet or draw the line on spending and have it pts if it's not able to do it any more or say it colics badly again then I don't see the harm. 

One of my most expensive horses which was vetted has been the biggest disaster I've ever owned.  Most of them I have not vetted. In fact the only ones who have had issues have been vetted so it doesn't stop you having problems down the line. 

I'm not saying don't vet it I'm saying balance up what it's going to change. 250 would pay half the insurance for a year and yes a lot will be excluded but there are loads of things that horses can do to themselves that won't be excluded or it's the disposal cost covered. 

Good luck op. Let us know what happens. 

I have a former 1.40 pro SJer and despite the fact he's a self harming warmblood idiot with a distinct lack of self preservation or many signs of intelligence who is permanently sure he is starving to death, I've also had the best times jumping him round 60cms (and occasionally higher!) and prancing around on him having fun!


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## ycbm (28 April 2017)

DabDab said:



			But I think that's the point - there's a big difference between a horse that can physically get round a 90 course and one that will take a rider round. The latter is what people are actually looking for
		
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Any rider can stop a horse jumping. A horse that won't stop after being ridden for six months with someone with no jumping skill/courage at all would be so rare it may as well have wings.(and how would you prove it?) There's no suggestion that this horse is one of those, is there?  I suspect the rider is simply a perfectly competent rider for 90cm.


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## DabDab (28 April 2017)

ycbm said:



			Any rider can stop a horse jumping. A horse that won't stop after being ridden for six months with someone with no jumping skill/courage at all would be so rare it may as well have wings.(and how would you prove it?) There's no suggestion that this horse is one of those, is there?  I suspect the rider is simply a perfectly competent rider for 90cm.
		
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Sorry, was talking generally, not really about this horse...don't know how much would be reasonable for this horse - I wouldn't buy nor sell such a horse so have no point of reference.
Generally, horse's who know what they are doing jumping wise and will be forgiving of a few mistakes will allow a rider to develop their confidence and technique far quicker than a green or intolerant jumping horse.
My big lad for example has jumped 1m showjumping tracks in a competitive environment with me, but I would not sell him as a horse to jump 90cm tracks on. Not because of the height (they're barely worth lifting his legs for), but because he has a pathological fear of coloured poles so is not much use as a show jumping horse. 
I don't know about this horse, but I do know that there is a considerable value placed in showjumping schoolmasters, mostly for people who will never jump them above 1.05


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## Whoopit (28 April 2017)

You mention you've spent a fortune on a saddle for her - if they didn't sell her to you they can't include the saddle you've bought in the sale anyway - you have proof of purchase so it's rightfully yours.

It's only worth what someone will pay for it so pick your figure and stick to it - ppl do this with loan horses all the time. Let someone get attached to it then decide a high price and effectively try to hold it to ransom because of the bond formed.


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## eggs (28 April 2017)

On the open market I would not think this horse is worth much more than meat money but it does depend on what she is worth to the OP as to what she offers the owner.

Many years ago when I was looking to buy a horse my instructor advised that any horse should be capable of jumping round a 3' track and doing a medium level dressage test.  I think expectations these days are much lower - as it is the standard of riding of a lot of people.


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## Nici (29 April 2017)

Fingers crossed, they might lower the price for you, Ballerina. In fact, I'm surprised they didn't go straight to you but offered the horse to somebody else first. :confused3:



eggs said:



			Many years ago when I was looking to buy a horse my instructor advised that any horse should be capable of jumping round a 3' track and doing a medium level dressage test.  I think expectations these days are much lower - as it is the standard of riding of a lot of people.
		
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Thank you for that tip, eggs, I'll bear that in mind when I look for a horse of my own. :thumbup:


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## paddi22 (29 April 2017)

Frumpoon said:



			If I were in your shoes I'd pay the £2k and count my lucky stars I'd got such a good quality horse
		
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but she is not a good quality horse, even two or three of those issues would be enough to knock the price down to about 1000k and thats being generous. in ireland a horse like that would go for about 800 euro, and the seller would be delighted.  

Picture them trying to sell it to a new potential buyer. they walk in and see her weaving in stable, they get on and feel she's spooky, she disunites when cantered, they try and hack her and its a nightmare. she is not an easy sell. they sellers should be delighted she has a chance at a good home.


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## windand rain (29 April 2017)

i agree with those saying she is pretty worthless to most people so I too think she should be gifted to you for a token sum


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## AdorableAlice (29 April 2017)

http://www.horsemart.co.uk/15-2hh-competition-horse/Horses/506450

This would come for 2k, more chance of passing the vet and insurable.

http://www.horsemart.co.uk/flashy-event-prospect/Horses/506322

http://www.horsemart.co.uk/flashy-event-prospect/Horses/506322

A horse is worth what someone will pay, but I would suggest starting with something that is vaguely sound and pleasant.


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## only_me (29 April 2017)

Frumpoon said:



			I went out on Tuesday, first competitive outing of the year, first class 70cm and of 20 starters there was one clear
		
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But I would suspect that is due to riders rather than horses. 
And I didn't mean a horse would jump clear every single time at 90cms, but I would expect them to jump 90% clear and be able to cope with doing a course tbh, even without much schooling. but I still maintain that every horse should be able to jump 90cm courses, it's not big!

But I'm from NI so maybe expect more from horses. A horse that couldn't jump 90cms would be worth very little here! But then also don't understand why people have to "teach" a horse to jump, surely they know already lol. School them over courses and fillers, but to actually teach a horse to jump a single fence?!


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## Casey76 (30 April 2017)

only_me said:



			But I would suspect that is due to riders rather than horses. 
And I didn't mean a horse would jump clear every single time at 90cms, but I would expect them to jump 90% clear and be able to cope with doing a course tbh, even without much schooling. but I still maintain that every horse should be able to jump 90cm courses, it's not big!

But I'm from NI so maybe expect more from horses. A horse that couldn't jump 90cms would be worth very little here! But then also don't understand why people have to "teach" a horse to jump, surely they know already lol. School them over courses and fillers, but to actually teach a horse to jump a single fence?!
		
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Some horses are natural jumpers, others, not so much.


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## Clodagh (30 April 2017)

I see no point in getting her vetted - she will fail. I would buy her for what you feel happy with, have fun with her and love her and then have her PTS when she goes wrong.

I would also expect any horse to be able to jump 3', they can trot over that. Even cobs...(LOL!).


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## MotherOfChickens (30 April 2017)

I don't see the point in a 5 star either -she'll fail and insurance wise she'll be excluded for colic anyway for starters. if you vet her and intend to insure, you'll just be excluded for anything else they pick up on.


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## ycbm (30 April 2017)

I agree. A vetting is pointless for anyone determined to buy a horse at any cost.

They are only useful as a negotiating chip if you aren't prepared to walk away if the vet advises you to.


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## DabDab (30 April 2017)

I agree with above, if the horse is as you describe it will fail and the vet will advise you that as well as the horse's current issues she is likely to suffer from deteriorating health and the colic surgery could well come back to bite. 
Not worth the vetting money - if you're determined to buy her then save the money for the first vet bill.


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## Frumpoon (30 April 2017)

only_me said:



			But I would suspect that is due to riders rather than horses. 
And I didn't mean a horse would jump clear every single time at 90cms, but I would expect them to jump 90% clear and be able to cope with doing a course tbh, even without much schooling. but I still maintain that every horse should be able to jump 90cm courses, it's not big!

But I'm from NI so maybe expect more from horses. A horse that couldn't jump 90cms would be worth very little here! But then also don't understand why people have to "teach" a horse to jump, surely they know already lol. School them over courses and fillers, but to actually teach a horse to jump a single fence?!
		
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Ok I'm sure you're right


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## claret09 (30 April 2017)

if you know her well and wouldn't want to be without then go for it. I bought my boy at 10 - he is very quirky (read difficult) - but he chose me - he is difficult to load, won't hack (roads are rubbish round here so not bothered), is opinionated, thinks he is in charge, gets very nervous and anxious when any thing changes, looks to me for reassurance all the time, he cost me £1,000 - he is beautifully bred and we have had a huge amount of fun over the years - I refuse to not go out because he can be tricky - he is 17.2 - far too big but I love him and wouldn't be without him - I have had him nearly 11 years - the best decision I ever made


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## ycbm (1 May 2017)

I've been cross country a few times with my mare now and after a jump she gallops off with head really low and it's so hard slow down or pull up for the next jump that I'm then out of control, she's had teeth done ect. She's ridden in a single jointed cherry roller in show jumping and schooling wit a flash.
Any ideas what bit to use for xc please
		
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Ballerina, you've just started a thread with this. I'm assuming it's the same horse.

This is a fairly typical pain response. Twisted pelvis, disunited in canter. Doesn't school in a dressage legal snaffle.  The more you write, the less this horse is worth.

I also think you should ask a vet to look her over, irrespective of the issue of buying her.


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## Palindrome (1 May 2017)

How is it a pain response to gallop between cross country fences?


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## ycbm (1 May 2017)

Palindrome said:



			How is it a pain response to gallop between cross country fences?
		
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Horses in pain often land and then shoot off.  Especially the ones which have been really good, reliable jumpers. It's not in them to refuse, so they jump anyway, land and run away from the pain.


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## Palindrome (1 May 2017)

ycbm said:



			Horses in pain often land and then shoot off.  Especially the ones which have been really good, reliable jumpers. It's not in them to refuse, so they jump anyway, land and run away from the pain.
		
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OK but perfectly healthy well schooled cross country horses do gallop between fences. OP said that horse has been cleared by physio and twisted pelvis thing was prior to her riding the horse. Plus she has recently had problems with the saddle which have now been sorted (that could have caused the disuniting in canter if for example saddle was too long, although it is not clear if that also happened prior to OP riding the horse). I think we don't really have enough information to tell anything.


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## Ballerina (1 May 2017)

How do I send pics or vids on here please ?


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## Leo Walker (1 May 2017)

For a video you can put the link to You Tube. 

Photos is easiest if you upload them to Photobucket and copy the link here. 

You can also use Facebook etc. Right click the photo, select copy image address and paste it between 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 with no spaces


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## ycbm (1 May 2017)

Palindrome said:



			OK but perfectly healthy well schooled cross country horses do gallop between fences. OP said that horse has been cleared by physio and twisted pelvis thing was prior to her riding the horse. Plus she has recently had problems with the saddle which have now been sorted (that could have caused the disuniting in canter if for example saddle was too long, although it is not clear if that also happened prior to OP riding the horse). I think we don't really have enough information to tell anything.
		
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I've seen a horse with kissing spines so bad she was immediately put to sleep who was cleared days before by a physio. It means nothing.

Of course horses gallop between cross country fences -that's the very definition of cross country!!

The OP is posting about being out of control. Landing and galloping off out of control is often a pain response. It may not be, but with this mare's history it should, imo, be checked out before putting stronger bits in her mouth.

Of course we don't know enough to tell what the problem is, and neither does the loaner. That's the very reason why pain should be ruled out for this horse, who has issues schooling on the flat, jumping and hacking and a long term known physical abnormality with the pelvis and with a stiff hind leg gait.  

What objection would you have to a vet checking this horse over?


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## paddi22 (1 May 2017)

yep i have had two with kissing spine who were strong xc. One loved jumping so much the adrenaline seemed to mask the pain for him, so I didn't spot the issue for ages as he was doing well competing. He would run flat and forward after fences. I assume now it was because he found it easy to run on his forehand than collect back weight on his hocks.

the more you describe thishorse there is no way it is worth anything close to the price the owners think.


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