# Cheltenham



## KautoStar1 (5 March 2018)

OK, I know we will do a thread for each day as it comes round, but to kick things off who are we most looking forward to seeing, what races look the most exciting, any bankers.

My biggest hope is as always, that horses and jockeys come home safe and sound.

I'm going to put it out there now.  I think Samcro will get beaten.


----------



## Clodagh (5 March 2018)

Being petty and small minded I hope Samcro gets beaten too. 

One thing for me is this year there are no horses thast I will really stress about. Kauto Star I used to worry about so much, and Sprinter Sacre, I could hardly bear to watch them, but as I don't bet it made the racing more edge of your seat. Cue Card is a bit that way, but not as much as those two were.

I have the whole week off work but I am not so up on who is running this year, with my picking up really having taken off this year I haven't followed the early season novices as I normally would. 

So for the big ones:
Buveur D'air
Black Corton RSA, Altior Champion Chase
Not so bothered on the Thursday, but I do like Yanworth as a horse, maybe each way?
Might Bite for the Gold Cup.


----------



## Fiona (5 March 2018)

Really looking forward to seeing Native River in the Gold Cup if the ground is very soft.

Fiona


----------



## Clodagh (5 March 2018)

Fiona said:



			Really looking forward to seeing Native River in the Gold Cup if the ground is very soft.

Fiona
		
Click to expand...

Oh yes, I love him too. Being a very professional punter I am a sucker for as chestnut with a blaze!


----------



## Fiona (5 March 2018)

Clodagh said:



			Oh yes, I love him too. Being a very professional punter I am a sucker for as chestnut with a blaze!
		
Click to expand...

Lol clodagh.....

I also love to see Willie Mullins and Noel Meade do well, and the northern English trainers..

Fiona


----------



## Elf On A Shelf (5 March 2018)

There aren't really any stand out exceptional horses this year. All have questions to answer. 

I suppose Buvuer D'air hasn't done anything wrong. Neither has Samcro. 

I personally get bored of watching Willie Mullins and those hideous pink and lime green silks winning all the time.


----------



## Chiffy (5 March 2018)

Me too EKW! I know its naughty  but I never want the Irish to win except perhaps Jessica Harrington.
I will be holding my breath for Altior.
I think otherwise, rather than worrying about a favourite horse,I shall be hoping that the Briony Frost bubble doesnt burst and that she rides just as well at the festival as she has all season so far. I hope the commentators dont build her up too much but that is probably an empty hope!


----------



## Clodagh (5 March 2018)

Chiffy said:



			Me too EKW! I know it&#8217;s naughty  but I never want the Irish to win except perhaps Jessica Harrington.
I will be holding my breath for Altior.
I think otherwise, rather than worrying about a favourite horse,I shall be hoping that the Briony Frost bubble doesn&#8217;t burst and that she rides just as well at the festival as she has all season so far. I hope the commentators don&#8217;t build her up too much but that is probably an empty hope!
		
Click to expand...

Agreed about the Irish, and yes to Jessica Harrington, she always seems so nice.


----------



## MyBoyChe (5 March 2018)

Week off work booked, Monday will be spent stocking the fridge with nibbles and then sit back and enjoy.  Dont bet and dont have any bankers but would like to see Might Bite win and Bryony do well.  Cant wait, its my annual holiday


----------



## Mariposa (5 March 2018)

I am SO excited! I'm on maternity leave so I get to watch the whole thing for once! Hurrah! Only downside is that I'm not attending any Preview evenings this year, which I will miss!

I'm really looking forward to seeing Slate House in the first, I have a horse-crush on him big time! It the going is sloppy its going to be very interesting - it should be ideal for Native River in the GC. 

And whilst at risk of sounding like a total fangirl for the Tizzards, I am keeping everything crossed Cue Card gets home safely in the Ryanair.


----------



## photo_jo (5 March 2018)

Go Go Getabird!!!


----------



## photo_jo (5 March 2018)

EKW said:



			There aren't really any stand out exceptional horses this year. All have questions to answer. 

I suppose Buvuer D'air hasn't done anything wrong. Neither has Samcro. 

I personally get bored of watching Willie Mullins and those hideous pink and lime green silks winning all the time.
		
Click to expand...

To be fair at the moment it's more the maroon and white of Gigginstown! Please make an exception for Getabird-I want the 'hideous pink and lime green' ahead in the Supreme Novices!


----------



## Elf On A Shelf (5 March 2018)

photo_jo said:



			To be fair at the moment it's more the maroon and white of Gigginstown! Please make an exception for Getabird-I want the 'hideous pink and lime green' ahead in the Supreme Novices!
		
Click to expand...

That's true! It's funny no one ever has such a grudge against the Green and Gold of McManus nor the Green and White of Hemmings - because both are such nice guys! But the outrageous, outspoken ones? People kind of begrudge them the success in a way. 

Personally for the Gold Cup I would LOVE to see Edwulf pull something out of the bag. Not only because of what happened to him last year at Cheltenham, nor for his 50/1 win in the Irish Gold Cup but because he is the maternal half brother of a horse I ride at work!


----------



## AdorableAlice (5 March 2018)

In the next seven days only two are forecast to be dry.  Cheltenham drains well but it will be soft if the weather forecast is correct.  Hopefully that will help to lessen injury.

I would love to see Edwulf win.


----------



## photo_jo (5 March 2018)

EKW said:



			Personally for the Gold Cup I would LOVE to see Edwulf pull something out of the bag. Not only because of what happened to him last year at Cheltenham, nor for his 50/1 win in the Irish Gold Cup but because he is the maternal half brother of a horse I ride at work!
		
Click to expand...

My sister bred Getabird!


----------



## Elf On A Shelf (5 March 2018)

photo_jo said:



			My sister bred Getabird!
		
Click to expand...

Does she get breeders premiums when the horse wins?!?!


----------



## photo_jo (5 March 2018)

EKW said:



			Does she get breeders premiums when the horse wins?!?!
		
Click to expand...

Don't know-I'll ask her-she lives in Ireland so he has an Irish prefix


----------



## {97702} (5 March 2018)

Always amazes me when people get so excited about Cheltenham - it is just an inconvenience with loads of incomers around here


----------



## Elf On A Shelf (5 March 2018)

Lévrier;13736685 said:
			
		


			Always amazes me when people get so excited about Cheltenham - it is just an inconvenience with loads of incomers around here 

Click to expand...

Do what any sensible person does - go stay with a relative or friend for the week for the peace and quiet to watch the racing and rent your house out for £1k for the week on Air BnB!


----------



## Fools Motto (5 March 2018)

I would love to see Black Corton win the RSA and Politologue win the QM (although Altior looks unbeatable). oh, and Pacha Du Polder do well in the hunter chase.
I'm sure Mite Bite will win the GC.


----------



## Dobiegirl (5 March 2018)

I havent really sat down and gone through the cards but would love Native River to win the GC, also Black Orton with Briony Frost in the RSA. I just hope Giggenstown doesnt clean up apart from Apples Jade. Wouldnt it be wonderful if The New One won the stayers. I dont bet either just love the whole thing, I dont go anymore as you see far more on tv.

Does anyone banking on Footpad think it strange that he has drifted in the betting even though the owners have issued a statement(well their agent) saying they have had positive reports from Willie Mullins, Is there smoke without fire?


----------



## Clodagh (6 March 2018)

I wouldn't trust anything WM or RR said about a local goat, let alone one of their horses. I hope they don't win anything!


----------



## bonny (6 March 2018)

Clodagh said:



			I wouldn't trust anything WM or RR said about a local goat, let alone one of their horses. I hope they don't win anything!
		
Click to expand...

I for one hope they do well, I don&#8217;t get this dislike of the big owners, without them spending millions buying and training their horses we wouldn&#8217;t have racing how it is....Cheltenham is what it is because all the big horses finally meet and champions are made. I hope they do well particularly his stars .....


----------



## photo_jo (6 March 2018)

bonny said:



			I for one hope they do well, I dont get this dislike of the big owners, without them spending millions buying and training their horses we wouldnt have racing how it is....Cheltenham is what it is because all the big horses finally meet and champions are made. I hope they do well particularly his stars .....
		
Click to expand...

Agree 100%, for racing and all equestrian disciplines. Without the big owners we'd all feel the fall out.


----------



## Elf On A Shelf (6 March 2018)

It's not the owners and their wads of cash that annoy us! We love their money! It's their personalities we don't like! If everyone like the same thing live would be very boring! There's more than one flavour of ice cream so there is something for everyone! 

Personally I quite like Willie Mullins but dislike RR. I like Gordon Elliot and I actually admire the O'Leary's because of their outspoken views.

I don't like Colin Tizard much,  nor do I like Barry Geraghty but others love them both.

Each to their own!


----------



## photo_jo (6 March 2018)

EKW said:



			Does she get breeders premiums when the horse wins?!?!
		
Click to expand...

No- only UK


----------



## {97702} (6 March 2018)

EKW said:



			Do what any sensible person does - go stay with a relative or friend for the week for the peace and quiet to watch the racing and rent your house out for £1k for the week on Air BnB!
		
Click to expand...

I think it would probably cost me the £1k to sort out the effects of a week of drunken racegoers in my house.....


----------



## Mariposa (7 March 2018)

Clodagh said:



			I wouldn't trust anything WM or RR said about a local goat, let alone one of their horses. I hope they don't win anything!
		
Click to expand...

This made me snort with laughter! 

I don't actually mind WM, its Giggenstown I'm not so mad about.

I'd LOVE The New One is win the Stayers, wouldn't it be lovely?


----------



## KautoStar1 (7 March 2018)

EKW said:



			It's not the owners and their wads of cash that annoy us! We love their money! It's their personalities we don't like! If everyone like the same thing live would be very boring! There's more than one flavour of ice cream so there is something for everyone! 

Personally I quite like Willie Mullins but dislike RR. I like Gordon Elliot and I actually admire the O'Leary's because of their outspoken views.

I don't like Colin Tizard much,  nor do I like Barry Geraghty but others love them both.

Each to their own!
		
Click to expand...



WE ??  We love their money but not their personalities ??  I'm not sure I'd be very happy if I were your employer at you making such public statements.  If Ms Russell is looking to attract new owners she wont want a member of her staff slagging off wealthy and influential owners on a public forum.  What about if you need to be finding another job sometime.  You've slagged off quite a few people in the past - other trainers, jockeys.  Best hope it doesn't catch you out.


----------



## popsdosh (7 March 2018)

KautoStar1 said:



			WE ??  We love their money but not their personalities ??  I'm not sure I'd be very happy if I were your employer at you making such public statements.  If Ms Russell is looking to attract new owners she wont want a member of her staff slagging off wealthy and influential owners on a public forum.  What about if you need to be finding another job sometime.  You've slagged off quite a few people in the past - other trainers, jockeys.  Best hope it doesn't catch you out.
		
Click to expand...







I try not to comment on racing threads now as generally there is far to much bitching about Trainers and owners. Im afraid you have to be more open minded because in NH would be a lot poorer if it was not for Gigginstown ,JP McManus,Willie Mullins and RR etc. They all pump in huge amounts of money that racing badly needs. Everybody used to hate MartinPipe in his hey day however he brought inovation into racing that changed it.  Its similar on the flat with the Maktoums without them what would racing be.
Now for Cheltenham be wary because unless they get some reasonable rain and then dries it will ride really dead due to the recent freeze so stamina will be at a premium!


----------



## Clodagh (8 March 2018)

popsdosh said:



			I try not to comment on racing threads now as generally there is far to much bitching about Trainers and owners. Im afraid you have to be more open minded because in NH would be a lot poorer if it was not for Gigginstown ,JP McManus,Willie Mullins and RR etc. They all pump in huge amounts of money that racing badly needs. Everybody used to hate MartinPipe in his hey day however he brought inovation into racing that changed it.  Its similar on the flat with the Maktoums without them what would racing be.
Now for Cheltenham be wary because unless they get some reasonable rain and then dries it will ride really dead due to the recent freeze so stamina will be at a premium!
		
Click to expand...

I like all the others, I just don't trust RR. Running a bookies and owning horses...? Mind you, no one makes people place ante post bets!


----------



## KautoStar1 (12 March 2018)

Well Altior has an abscess and Douvan goes for the Champion Chase.  This could be an interesting few days with the ground on the soft side and people juggling their runners.  If it turns into a slog I can see some odd results.  On the plus side soft ground is better in terms of fallers and Native River looks a good price for the Gold Cup.


----------



## humblepie (12 March 2018)

Fingers crossed Altior is okay and runs.  Glad that Douvan is running Wednesday as that's the day I am going and I wanted to see him.


----------



## Clodagh (12 March 2018)

KautoStar1 said:



			Well Altior has an abscess and Douvan goes for the Champion Chase.  This could be an interesting few days with the ground on the soft side and people juggling their runners.  If it turns into a slog I can see some odd results.  On the plus side soft ground is better in terms of fallers and Native River looks a good price for the Gold Cup.
		
Click to expand...

Oh no! I wonder if he really has or NH doesn't want to run him on heavy? I think probably the former, he ran in heavy last time, didn't he?


----------



## popsdosh (12 March 2018)

Clodagh said:



			Oh no! I wonder if he really has or NH doesn't want to run him on heavy? I think probably the former, he ran in heavy last time, didn't he?
		
Click to expand...

NH has no reason to lie if he doesnt want to run him on Heavy he would say so. Cheltenham can change a lot before Friday and will be on relatively fresh ground for the gold cup


----------



## Clodagh (12 March 2018)

popsdosh said:



			NH has no reason to lie if he doesnt want to run him on Heavy he would say so. Cheltenham can change a lot before Friday and will be on relatively fresh ground for the gold cup
		
Click to expand...

Altiuor is Champion Chase. Anyway, have just seen the actual report and he should still be running. I so want to see him V Douvan.


----------



## popsdosh (12 March 2018)

Clodagh said:



			Altiuor is Champion Chase. Anyway, have just seen the actual report and he should still be running. I so want to see him V Douvan.
		
Click to expand...

I was just making a general observation about the going later in the week later in the week . It can dry quite quickly with the drainage system they have in place.


----------



## oysterbay (13 March 2018)

Is there an equivalent of The Morning Line now?


----------



## be positive (13 March 2018)

oysterbay said:



			is there an equivalent of the morning line now?
		
Click to expand...

itv4 9.30


----------



## oysterbay (13 March 2018)

Thank you!


----------



## splashgirl45 (13 March 2018)

why oh why do they not undo the tight grakle on bouvier d air?   i understand that some horses need to be controlled in the race but that poor horse is still walking around trying to breathe after a tough race.  im sure he  would have had some water if he could have opened his mouth a bit.   there is so much bad feeling about dressage horses being kranked in (and rightly so!!!)  where are the racing welfare people!!!!!!  i would have thought NH would have been more sympathetic to the horse...some of you that work in racing, please enlighten me.....


----------



## Clodagh (13 March 2018)

I'm 100% with you there. ITV would have been better off not showing how tight it was in the first place, and it should have been undone on pulling up. He looked shakey when he first pulled up, he worked really hard and would have liked to swallow and rearrange his tongue, I am sure.


----------



## splashgirl45 (13 March 2018)

glad im not the only one to be unhappy with this...even if itv didnt show it it is still very wrong IMO


----------



## Elf On A Shelf (13 March 2018)

It's normally the first thing that is undone and usually if you forget or get wait too long to do it the vets come and tell you to undo it and give you a rollicking!  So not sure where they were during all of this either! But yes - shame on the person bringing him in for not undoing it straight away! 

It's been a good days racing! I am disappointed that Apples Jade was beaten but that's racing! She does better for having a recent run and she hadn't ran since the end of December.


----------



## Clodagh (13 March 2018)

splashgirl45 said:



			glad im not the only one to be unhappy with this...even if itv didnt show it it is still very wrong IMO
		
Click to expand...

I do agree, with the tightness I only meant they showed that big guy absolutely cranking it up and up in the saddling boxes, better to have shown something else maybe.


----------



## splashgirl45 (13 March 2018)

Clodagh said:



			I do agree, with the tightness I only meant they showed that big guy absolutely cranking it up and up in the saddling boxes, better to have shown something else maybe.
		
Click to expand...

see what you mean, i was not happy to see the force he used and how the horses cheek was bulging out.....thanks EKW that makes me feel better that horse welfare is being monitored even if the numpties today werent pulled up about it...


----------



## Crazy_cat_lady (13 March 2018)

Just reading the BBC report was listening to some of the live commentary at work but left at half 4 apparently there were a couple of fatalities? None of the reports on racing post seem to mention them though?


----------



## popsdosh (13 March 2018)

Crazy_cat_lady said:



			Just reading the BBC report was listening to some of the live commentary at work but left at half 4 apparently there were a couple of fatalities? None of the reports on racing post seem to mention them though?
		
Click to expand...

Yes sadly 2.
Mossback in the NH challenge cup 4.50
Report to base in Nov handicap chase  5.30


----------



## popsdosh (13 March 2018)

Congratulations to Lizzie Kelly with her first festival winner it is lovely for a smallish set up too.


----------



## Clodagh (14 March 2018)

popsdosh said:



			Congratulations to Lizzie Kelly with her first festival winner it is lovely for a smallish set up too.
		
Click to expand...

It is. I have never been a huge fan of her but she came across beautifully, so delighted and emotional. She rode brilliantly.


----------



## suffolkmare (14 March 2018)

Well, I have found myself with three non-working days so I&#8217;m watching on tv. Sadly looked a rough fall for Ruby, horse got up but he&#8217;s off to x Ray with ? # leg &#9785;&#65039;


----------



## suffolkmare (14 March 2018)

Pleased for Nico and Altior, if it doesnt go as you wanted, there&#8217;s always plan...z?! 
Glad Douzan was up ok after launching waaaaay too early.


----------



## Elf On A Shelf (14 March 2018)

There was never a doubt as soon as Altior kicked for home and hit that Hill!  

The Jump Ar Mad gave at the first -I would have pooped myself! 

Samcro won easy too! So pleased for Gordon Elliot after Apples Jade yesterday. I see her declaration in the World Hurdle tomorrow is still live. She always does better for a run. Maybe not 2 days between but she ran 2nd in the Fighting 5th then 7 days later beat Either Annie Power or Vroum Vroum Mag the other year (I can't remember which one!) So if she lines up I wouldn't rule her out ...


----------



## Ambers Echo (14 March 2018)

So sad for  Ruby Walsh. His injury history is ridiculous. Have no idea how he keeps putting himself out there.


----------



## splashgirl45 (14 March 2018)

EKW  as you are working in racing do you know why the rules on nosebands not seem to  apply to nicky hendersons runners?, again today no loosening of tight nosebands and nothing done by cheltenham officials.  i am really disappointed as i thought maybe it was a one  off with bouvier yesterday. sadly, at cheltenhem it seems not....


----------



## Elf On A Shelf (14 March 2018)

It's an unofficial rule - more common sense! I have no idea why they are being such arses not undoing them! But shame on them!


----------



## splashgirl45 (14 March 2018)

EKW said:



			It's an unofficial rule - more common sense! I have no idea why they are being such arses not undoing them! But shame on them!
		
Click to expand...

looks like it is about time it was an official rule if those in charge of the horses arent doing the best for them. i am getting a bit fed up with itv banging on about welfare when there is an obvious disregard for the welfare of the horse at the end of a race especially with the  current ground conditions..i am tempted to send itv a question regarding this if i can work out how to....


----------



## Clodagh (14 March 2018)

Perhaps try emailling Cheltenham about it? They must have a section for 'suggestions'?


----------



## Elf On A Shelf (14 March 2018)

Tweet Nicky Henderson publicly. He might give you bull answer or he may remind his staff to undo them!


----------



## splashgirl45 (14 March 2018)

EKW said:



			Tweet Nicky Henderson publicly. He might give you bull answer or he may remind his staff to undo them!
		
Click to expand...

ok, i am not tech minded,how do i tweet him?


----------



## splashgirl45 (14 March 2018)

dont worry about how to tweet, i have e mailed the jockey club as i feel so strongly about this issue.  wonder if i will get a reply?


----------



## Clodagh (14 March 2018)

I hope so. Can you keep me updated?


----------



## splashgirl45 (15 March 2018)

ok, have had acknowledgement e mail from british horseracing authority saying it can take up to 7 days to answer a query.. lets see what they say...


----------



## Trules (15 March 2018)

Changing the subject... Looks like the irish have all the best horses this year....


----------



## Elf On A Shelf (15 March 2018)

Trules said:



			Changing the subject... Looks like the irish have all the best horses this year....
		
Click to expand...

They usually do! But they haven't won either of the Championship races ran yet! I'm not sure if they will get the World Hurdle but I suspect the Gold Cup will be heading over the water!


----------



## suffolkmare (15 March 2018)

Very glad they just showed Cue card cantering up, sad but good decision not to push an &#8220;unhappy&#8221; horse who owes no one anything.


----------



## Kadastorm (15 March 2018)

Love Cue Card and hope he is now retired. What a horse he has been.


----------



## mypegasus (15 March 2018)

Just watching Cue Card canter back with his ears pricked was lovely.  Better to pull him up when it was obvious he wasnt enjoying it than push him on.

Was lucky enough to see him at Haydock - lovely lovely horse.


----------



## Crazy_cat_lady (15 March 2018)

Listening to Colin T just now I read it that they are hoping they will find something and can go again... surely now it's time to call it a day? I don't think we've seen the last of him racing though.


----------



## Trules (15 March 2018)

I think Michael O Leary is coming across really well. And really pleased for Davy Russell. X


----------



## Elf On A Shelf (15 March 2018)

Crazy_cat_lady said:



			Listening to Colin T just now I read it that they are hoping they will find something and can go again... surely now it's time to call it a day? I don't think we've seen the last of him racing though.
		
Click to expand...

In the run up to Cheltenham they always said this was Cue Cards swansong - but nothing surprises me with Tizard.


----------



## Clodagh (15 March 2018)

Trules said:



			I think Michael O Leary is coming across really well. And really pleased for Davy Russell. X
		
Click to expand...

I thought he came across as really loving it. See PD, I can be nice about owners! RR interviewed well the other day, too. 

Please let them retire CC, he is so lovely and has become rather public property now (for right or wrong).


----------



## Clodagh (15 March 2018)

splashgirl45 said:



			dont worry about how to tweet, i have e mailed the jockey club as i feel so strongly about this issue.  wonder if i will get a reply?
		
Click to expand...

Are you on FB? ITV Racing are asking for questions, I have asked about it, but the more the merrier.


----------



## Chiffy (16 March 2018)

Chris Evans at Jonjo&#8217;s yard this morning. We have friends there who won his auction package for Children in Need to go to Cheltenham!


----------



## Elf On A Shelf (16 March 2018)

Chiffy said:



			Chris Evans at Jonjos yard this morning. We have friends there who won his auction package for Children in Need to go to Cheltenham!
		
Click to expand...

I hope they have a good day! And what better day to go than Gold cup day! 

What is everyone thinking for the Gold Cup? My heart wants Edwulf to do well but my headad says Definitely Red on the softer ground.

It was 2 years ago now that my wee Sky Khan was a close 3rd in the boys race!


----------



## Crazy_cat_lady (16 March 2018)

Is  the faller in the first up? Following BBC live text and there's a picture of the winner but in the distance you can see the jockey in the background stood around the hurdle suggesting horse still down? 

Glad double shuffle isn't running in the gold cup as tempted to stick a fiver on at 60-1 or whatever the odds so won't regret not doing that at least.

Think native river will win but not the biggest fan of Colin Tizzard. Would like to see Edwulf win it.


----------



## mypegasus (16 March 2018)

Stormy Island was up after the fall in the first race.


----------



## Kadastorm (16 March 2018)

Stormy Island got up and walked off but Sandsend had a horrific leg break and tried to run on. Horrid to see and my thoughts are with his connections. Hoping Outlander comes in the frame as I have an each way bet on him! But I am very fond of Might Bite! Hope the all come home safe and sound.


----------



## Equi (16 March 2018)

Barely seemed like a race there at all!


----------



## suffolkmare (16 March 2018)

Great duel but both horses looked tired on the run in. Congratulations to Native River and team Tizzard. I hope both fallers were ok, after the sad earlier fatality &#55357;&#56866;


----------



## Elf On A Shelf (16 March 2018)

That was some run from the front two! They were sitting up front waiting to be swallowed up but they just kept going!


----------



## Trules (16 March 2018)

What a brave performance from Native River. What a trier! Thrilled for connections and Dickie J.


----------



## Clodagh (16 March 2018)

What a fantastic race. I love NR, but MB is a bit special. Let's hope they both make it back safe and sound for next year!


----------



## scotlass (16 March 2018)

Great race by the first two.   The ground is leaving a lot of good horses standing.

And now what a great race by Pacha du Polder.   This little schoolmaster really knows how to look after amateurs


----------



## suffolkmare (16 March 2018)

Love Pacha! Top wood ran a great race too.


----------



## Rowreach (16 March 2018)

scotlass said:



			Great race by the first two.   The ground is leaving a lot of good horses standing.

And now what a great race by Pacha du Polder.   This little schoolmaster really knows how to look after amateurs
		
Click to expand...

Have you ridden round there?


----------



## Ambers Echo (16 March 2018)

Grrrr I was rushing home after stressage comp to put a bet on Native River. But too late - had to hear it on the radio instead! I almost always bet on the Gold Cup and on the National. Haven't won anything since backing Seagram which was a very, very long time ago so would have been nice to have had a winner again this time!


----------



## scotlass (16 March 2018)

Rowreach said:



			Have you ridden round there?
		
Click to expand...

No.  Why?

This is the second day of  Cheltenham using the new course.  Horses like Definitely Red, who would normally stay all day found the ground testing.

Pasha du Polder has a great record in the Amateurs .. 5th with Victoria Pendleton, and has won the last two years.


----------



## Rowreach (16 March 2018)

scotlass said:



			No.  Why?

This is the second day of  Cheltenham using the new course.  Horses like Definitely Red, who would normally stay all day found the ground testing.

Pasha du Polder has a great record in the Amateurs .. 5th with Victoria Pendleton, and has won the last two years.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, a fabulous horse, but even these "amateurs" have to have a certain degree of skill to ride over those fences, judge a race and deal with all the other runners - let alone someone who has just dislocated her shoulder and still manages to win it.


----------



## Elf On A Shelf (16 March 2018)

Rowreach said:



			Yes, a fabulous horse, but even these "amateurs" have to have a certain degree of skill to ride over those fences, judge a race and deal with all the other runners - let alone someone who has just dislocated her shoulder and still manages to win it.
		
Click to expand...

Well as Victoria Pendleton proved - you don't need that much experience to go round Cheltenham!


----------



## {97702} (16 March 2018)

EKW said:



			Well as Victoria Pendleton proved - you don't need that much experience to go round Cheltenham!
		
Click to expand...

Might take my little cob round then.......


----------



## Rowreach (16 March 2018)

EKW said:



			Well as Victoria Pendleton proved - you don't need that much experience to go round Cheltenham!
		
Click to expand...

Am I right you don't school over fences much?


----------



## Fools Motto (16 March 2018)

As I know both Bryony, (who won it last year), and Harriet, AND the horse, I am truly thrilled for all. 
I ride, have ridden racehorses, and have jumped a few point2point fences... there will be no way on this earth that I would even think about riding around Cheltenham. I admire all that do. They have to have skill, talent, a lot of luck, and masses and masses of guts. School master, he may be, but even then, someone had to pilot him in among all the others.


----------



## Clodagh (16 March 2018)

Harriet was great, I assume she didn't hit him as her arm was flapping, but Pacha just did it anyway - fantastic! 

Anyone know how Harry Skelton is? He got an awful kicking.


----------



## Rowreach (16 March 2018)

Fools Motto said:



			As I know both Bryony, (who won it last year), and Harriet, AND the horse, I am truly thrilled for all. 
I ride, have ridden racehorses, and have jumped a few point2point fences... there will be no way on this earth that I would even think about riding around Cheltenham. I admire all that do. They have to have skill, talent, a lot of luck, and masses and masses of guts. School master, he may be, but even then, someone had to pilot him in among all the others.
		
Click to expand...

*hits the like button*


----------



## suffolkmare (16 March 2018)

Sadly there were more fatalities today, including Harry Skeltons ride. Can Cheltenham be made safer for the horses? It turns the &#8220;general public&#8221; right off all racing.


----------



## bonny (16 March 2018)

suffolkmare said:



			Sadly there were more fatalities today, including Harry Skeltons ride. Can Cheltenham be made safer for the horses? It turns the &#8220;general public&#8221; right off all racing.
		
Click to expand...

How about taking the jumps away and not getting out of a trot ?


----------



## bonny (17 March 2018)

There is probably a case for looking at the last race, 22 runners over 2 miles on the worst of the ground was maybe not the best way to end such a brilliant festival ....that was the race that led to half the deaths so maybe changing that might be a help, or maybe it was just very unlucky today what happened and it won&#8217;t again.


----------



## Sandstone1 (17 March 2018)

suffolkmare said:



			Sadly there were more fatalities today, including Harry Skeltons ride. Can Cheltenham be made safer for the horses? It turns the &#8220;general public&#8221; right off all racing.
		
Click to expand...

How many horses in total died at this years meeting?


----------



## suffolkmare (17 March 2018)

Of course you can&#8217;t eliminate all risk or we&#8217;d never expect people to get into a car and drive anywhere just for a days entertainment. But, the G N has improved lots of features (and I know some people think that went too far, but I think enough was done to save the race from becoming history) so maybe some things at Cheltenham need looking at too. The TV presenters even commented on how awful the ground was post gold cup.


----------



## suffolkmare (17 March 2018)

I think 6 died, 2 on day 1, 4 yesterday


----------



## Sandstone1 (17 March 2018)

suffolkmare said:



			I think 6 died, 2 on day 1, 4 yesterday
		
Click to expand...

Thank you.
im not a huge racing fan but watch the odd race.   Sorry to hear 6 horses died.   As someone else said, it doesnt give a good impression of racing to the general public to hear so many horses died.
I know there is risk in all walks of life from crossing the road to getting in a car but 6 horses killed in the name of entertainment?
Doesnt sit well with me.


----------



## popsdosh (17 March 2018)

suffolkmare said:



			Of course you cant eliminate all risk or wed never expect people to get into a car and drive anywhere just for a days entertainment. But, the G N has improved lots of features (and I know some people think that went too far, but I think enough was done to save the race from becoming history) so maybe some things at Cheltenham need looking at too. The TV presenters even commented on how awful the ground was post gold cup.
		
Click to expand...

Im sorry but the GN is not the race it was it has just become a normal handicap race . It is only safe until the next bad year when all misfortunes come together. 
As unpalatable as it is 6 loses over 4 days of championship racing is a positive as that is pretty much the norm every day of the week in NH racing. It would not even be above the average at a flat meeting.
You cannot blame the ground as in general heavier going cuts down on injuries. 10 yrs ago it is unlikely they would have raced at all this week . The heavy going is one of the reasons Ireland won so many races this week they race on that sort of surface week in week out.


----------



## popsdosh (17 March 2018)

bonny said:



			There is probably a case for looking at the last race, 22 runners over 2 miles on the worst of the ground was maybe not the best way to end such a brilliant festival ....that was the race that led to half the deaths so maybe changing that might be a help, or maybe it was just very unlucky today what happened and it wont again.
		
Click to expand...

There were two in that race the other was in the county hurdle.


----------



## Clodagh (17 March 2018)

popsdosh said:



			Im sorry but the GN is not the race it was it has just become a normal handicap race . It is only safe until the next bad year when all misfortunes come together. 
As unpalatable as it is 6 loses over 4 days of championship racing is a positive as that is pretty much the norm every day of the week in NH racing. It would not even be above the average at a flat meeting.
You cannot blame the ground as in general heavier going cuts down on injuries. 10 yrs ago it is unlikely they would have raced at all this week . The heavy going is one of the reasons Ireland won so many races this week they race on that sort of surface week in week out.
		
Click to expand...

I so agree with you. THe GN is no more exciting than the Eider nowadays, just any old handicap, albeit with more prize money. I prefer the other races at Aintree now.

It is sad about the horses, but inevitable. How many die out hunting in a year, I wonder?


----------



## Clodagh (17 March 2018)

Clodagh said:



			It is sad about the horses, but inevitable. How many die out hunting in a year, I wonder?
		
Click to expand...

Ignore that, as being fairly ireelevant. No one counts the dead out hunting. At least it doesn't get the publicity that deaths at Aintree do.

As for the ground being dire, surely it was so heavy it should have been safer? They did go like the clappers for the last race though. The loose horses didn't help.


----------



## minesadouble (17 March 2018)

From what I have heard there were three falls in the last race, all of which were fatalities, sounds like a real freak occurrence to me.


----------



## popsdosh (17 March 2018)

minesadouble said:



			From what I have heard there were three falls in the last race, all of which were fatalities, sounds like a real freak occurrence to me.
		
Click to expand...

Only two died in the last race!


----------



## bonny (17 March 2018)

It was 3, I would hate to see Cheltenham changed in any way , apart from maybe looking at that one race.


----------



## TelH (17 March 2018)

bonny said:



			It was 3, I would hate to see Cheltenham changed in any way , apart from maybe looking at that one race.
		
Click to expand...

This ^^^

Some Plan, Dresden and North Hill Harvey were lost in the final race.


----------



## popsdosh (17 March 2018)

TelH said:



			This ^^^

Some Plan, Dresden and North Hill Harvey were lost in the final race.
		
Click to expand...

Some plan is not down as a fatality on Racing post in depth results


----------



## bonny (17 March 2018)

popsdosh said:



			Some plan is not down as a fatality on Racing post in depth results
		
Click to expand...

Does it really matter ? It does look like it was 3, for me I think it&#8217;s a bit sad that on the whole this thread is about nose bands and now fatalities than about the racing, I don&#8217;t understand why some people even watch, or is it just so they can look for something to be critical about ?


----------



## Sandstone1 (17 March 2018)

bonny said:



			Does it really matter ? It does look like it was 3, for me I think it&#8217;s a bit sad that on the whole this thread is about nose bands and now fatalities than about the racing, I don&#8217;t understand why some people even watch, or is it just so they can look for something to be critical about ?
		
Click to expand...

Maybe its because some people care about animal welfare


----------



## Tiddlypom (17 March 2018)

Sandstone1 said:



			Maybe its because some people care about animal welfare
		
Click to expand...

Quite.


----------



## Rowreach (17 March 2018)

popsdosh said:



			Some plan is not down as a fatality on Racing post in depth results
		
Click to expand...

Sadly I think you'll find his was a fatal injury.

The BHA are investigating the deaths, and I do think 6 is a lot over a four day festival.


----------



## Rowreach (17 March 2018)

bonny said:



			Does it really matter ? It does look like it was 3, for me I think it&#8217;s a bit sad that on the whole this thread is about nose bands and now fatalities than about the racing, I don&#8217;t understand why some people even watch, or is it just so they can look for something to be critical about ?
		
Click to expand...

The thread is about Cheltenham, and all that has happened over the course of the festival, and that is what has been discussed.

I love my racing, but I don't like fatalities in any horse sport, although I fully understand how and why they happen.


----------



## bonny (17 March 2018)

Tiddlypom said:



			Quite.
		
Click to expand...

I care as much as the next person but I&#8217;m not watching Cheltenham just to comment on the falls, which for the record are a lot less than they used to be....


----------



## Tiddlypom (17 March 2018)

bonny said:



			I care as much as the next person but Im not watching Cheltenham just to comment on the falls
		
Click to expand...

Neither am I. I like to watch supremely trained athletes at the top of their game, which is why I watch Cheltenham.


----------



## Rowreach (17 March 2018)

bonny said:



			I care as much as the next person but I&#8217;m not watching Cheltenham just to comment on the falls, which for the record are a lot less than they used to be....
		
Click to expand...

Well like it or not, unless welfare concerns are addressed, there won't be any Cheltenham for you to watch.


----------



## Sandstone1 (17 March 2018)

Rowreach said:



			Well like it or not, unless welfare concerns are addressed, there won't be any Cheltenham for you to watch.
		
Click to expand...

Exactly,   some people just don't get it.    In this day and age people are not going to turn a blind eye to this sort of thing.
I love horses and most horse sports.  I dont however enjoy watching horses being killed in the name of sport or entertainment.


----------



## popsdosh (17 March 2018)

Sandstone1 said:



			Exactly,   some people just don't get it.    In this day and age people are not going to turn a blind eye to this sort of thing.
I love horses and most horse sports.  I dont however enjoy watching horses being killed in the name of sport or entertainment.
		
Click to expand...

Well dont watch Racing, eventing ,Polo,SJ or Endurance, im afraid its a fact of life that fatalities happen . Nobody does it to harm horses but accidents happen!
Lets turn cheltenham into a flat racing festival then you wont be tempted to watch it on the telly as it wont be there  . It is the top of the sport not a mickey mouse handicap race. I still say on average 1.5 fatalities a day in a champiobship is below average.


----------



## TelH (17 March 2018)

popsdosh said:



			Some plan is not down as a fatality on Racing post in depth results
		
Click to expand...

Neither is my friend's horse who had a heart attack after racing a few years ago. He was gone very soon after crossing the line but his record just shows that he never raced again (that incident did not happen at Cheltenham). I don't know all the details but I would hazard a guess that they perhaps took Some Plan away in the ambulance and made the decision to pts later on, and that's why he's not on the results as a fatality.


----------



## Sandstone1 (17 March 2018)

popsdosh said:



			Well dont watch Racing, eventing ,Polo,SJ or Endurance, im afraid its a fact of life that fatalities happen . Nobody does it to harm horses but accidents happen!
Lets turn cheltenham into a flat racing festival then you wont be tempted to watch it on the telly as it wont be there  . It is the top of the sport not a mickey mouse handicap race. I still say on average 1.5 fatalities a day in a champiobship is below average.
		
Click to expand...

yes I agree that accidents happen but six deaths in four days?????
 Its not about if I watch it or not is it?  
I dont actually watch much racing but thats not the point.    Are horses so disposable now that six horses dying over a four day meeting is ok?
Yes horses die in lots of sports but would you really expect to see Six die in a four day  event of any other kind.
The point is like it or not if this keeps happening public opinion will go against racing.


----------



## bonny (17 March 2018)

Sandstone1 said:



			yes I agree that accidents happen but six deaths in four days?????
 Its not about if I watch it or not is it?  
I dont actually watch much racing but thats not the point.    Are horses so disposable now that six horses dying over a four day meeting is ok?
Yes horses die in lots of sports but would you really expect to see Six die in a four day  event of any other kind.
The point is like it or not if this keeps happening public opinion will go against racing.
		
Click to expand...

These horses are hardly disposable, all you are doing is showing your ignorance of NH racing and sounding like one of the people who only want to comment on what you see as wrong not with what Cheltenham is about. Racing is very aware of public opinion and if you knew what you were talking about you would know the steps already taken to improve welfare and lessen accidents. I think they probably will look at the last race and maybe it is a mistake to have the last race framed as it is.


----------



## Sandstone1 (17 March 2018)

Clearly the steps taken havent worked then have they.   Im no expert on National hunt racing and dont pretend to be.  If the so called experts think horses dying in numbers like this is ok and just one of the risks then im very glad not to be a "expert"

If a owner or trainer sends their horse out to race knowing there is a good chance they wont come back alive what other word you use other than disposable?


----------



## bonny (17 March 2018)

Sandstone1 said:



			Clearly the steps taken havent worked then have they.   Im no expert on National hunt racing and dont pretend to be.  If the so called experts think horses dying in numbers like this is ok and just one of the risks then im very glad not to be a "expert"

If a owner or trainer sends their horse out to race knowing there is a good chance they wont come back alive what other word you use other than disposable?
		
Click to expand...

Maybe if you dont know what you are talking about you shouldnt comment ! The horses go out to race with a very high chance of coming back alive, the owners pay huge sums to buy and train them and all jump courses have made steps to make the courses easier, what else would you like them to do ?


----------



## Elf On A Shelf (17 March 2018)

Sandstone1 said:



			Clearly the steps taken havent worked then have they.   Im no expert on National hunt racing and dont pretend to be.  If the so called experts think horses dying in numbers like this is ok and just one of the risks then im very glad not to be a "expert"

If a owner or trainer sends their horse out to race knowing there is a good chance they wont come back alive what other word you use other than disposable?
		
Click to expand...

Do you turn your horse out on the field every day thinking that it may come back in with a broken leg? No! Same with racing. You don't send horses out to die but accidents happen.

The ground at Cheltenham was softer than it has been for years and because of this the races were run slightly slower than usual (it may not look like it on TV as these are the cream of the crop and can still go very fast!). If you think the ground was bad at Cheltenham  (which is wasnt) you don't want to see how Ayr racecourse looks at the end of a days racing at the moment! 

The softer ground slows the pace a bit, less jumping errors are made  (usually) and less injuries happen. I'm not talking about fatalities but your usual cuts, scrapes, tendons etc.


----------



## be positive (17 March 2018)

Sandstone1 said:



			Clearly the steps taken havent worked then have they.   Im no expert on National hunt racing and dont pretend to be.  If the so called experts think horses dying in numbers like this is ok and just one of the risks then im very glad not to be a "expert"

If a owner or trainer sends their horse out to race knowing there is a good chance they wont come back alive what other word you use other than disposable?
		
Click to expand...

The "experts" don't think it is ok but they can only do so much to make racing as safe as possible, horses capable of running at championship meetings such as Cheltenham are certainly not disposable to their owners or trainers, they are a highly valued asset but it is a high risk sport and sadly horses do break legs or have heart attacks, the only way to prevent accidents happening is to not have horses in  the first place, many non racehorses will die every day from accidents, injuries or because they no can longer do the job they were bought for, it may be more palatable because it is not in the public eye but you could class most horses as disposable if you take it literally.


----------



## claracanter (17 March 2018)

Racing is struggling to appeal to the wider public and gain new audiences. ITV cover it at the moment but I fear it will be lost to terrestrial TV in a few years. ITV keep talking up the Cheltenham Festival and the quality of the races and have features to explain racing, race cards, horses etc to a new audience, however it is hard to market something to the general public when there are fatalities. 

I love NH racing and have been a fan all my life but I am so saddened by the death of these 6 horses and all the other horses who lose their lives due to racing but I live in the real world with my own horses and know it's just as likely to happen in a field accident. However the general public don't know such things. The authorities have managed to make the Grand National safer and I agree it is nothing like  the race it once but this ensures it's survival.

I find it hard to focus on what a great Gold Cup it was this year or the Cheltenham Festival in general, with the number of fatalities( any fatality is a tragedy). I'm particularly touched by the death of North Hill Harvey as I only met him a couple of weeks ago at Dan Skelton's yard. It was obvious how much he was loved and how much all these racehorses are loved and cared for. However for the general public this can be a harder concept to grasp.

If I heard that greyhounds were dying at dog tracks, would I be horrified? Does the fact that we understand racing and know the fragility of the racehorse, any horse in fact, make it acceptable?

I'm glad to see the BHA are launching an inquiry into the deaths.


----------



## Ambers Echo (17 March 2018)

Unless you are a vegan, (and 97%  of people aren't) then most animals are raised to meet human desires -- for meat, for sport, for labour, for research, for leisure. Dairy herds dispose of male calves so even vegetarianism does not protect animals. 

If you accept (as society clearly has in general) that animals ARE disposable - as in you can breed them for your own purposes then kill them or do whatever you want with them - then the question becomes one of animal welfare and ethics. Everyone has their own line to draw on that but I have never understood people railing against the cruelty of - say- NH racing while happily eating a factory farmed chicken sandwich. 
I am not vegan but I accept that their position is consistent and logical - animals should not be used by humans, ever, for any reason. Everyone else seems to have very woolly and inconsistent views - myself included! Which is why I choose my own ethical stance but would never judge anyone else. And I don;t kid myself that I am not treating animals as disposable.  

My own ethical stance is quite strong - all my kids were raised vegetarian until they were old enough to know what meat was, we only eat free range meat, I treat my own animals very well etc . But I have no problem with racing. If I did have to be reincarnated as an animal then coming back as a successful racehorse would be pretty high: a wonderful life,  a swift and largely fear-free death. Not many animals are as lucky.


----------



## bonny (17 March 2018)

claracanter said:



			Racing is struggling to appeal to the wider public and gain new audiences. ITV cover it at the moment but I fear it will be lost to terrestrial TV in a few years. ITV keep talking up the Cheltenham Festival and the quality of the races and have features to explain racing, race cards, horses etc to a new audience, however it is hard to market something to the general public when there are fatalities. 

I love NH racing and have been a fan all my life but I am so saddened by the death of these 6 horses and all the other horses who lose their lives due to racing but I live in the real world with my own horses and know it's just as likely to happen in a field accident. However the general public don't know such things. The authorities have managed to make the Grand National safer and I agree it is nothing like  the race it once but this ensures it's survival.

I find it hard to focus on what a great Gold Cup it was this year or the Cheltenham Festival in general, with the number of fatalities( any fatality is a tragedy). I'm particularly touched by the death of North Hill Harvey as I only met him a couple of weeks ago at Dan Skelton's yard. It was obvious how much he was loved and how much all these racehorses are loved and cared for. However for the general public this can be a harder concept to grasp.

If I heard that greyhounds were dying at dog tracks, would I be horrified? Does the fact that we understand racing and know the fragility of the racehorse, any horse in fact, make it acceptable?

I'm glad to see the BHA are launching an inquiry into the deaths.
		
Click to expand...

Did you see the crowds at Cheltenham ? Appreciate the 400 million pound betting turnover ? Know what people are paying for young potential jumping horses ? I would say racing is doing just fine without the uninterested just latching on to what can go wrong. That&#8217;s what has ruined the grand national and I for one hope that they don&#8217;t do any more to lower the jumps at the other courses. The ground this year probably did have a bearing on what happened but it is unlikely to be that heavy again for a long time


----------



## Sandstone1 (17 March 2018)

bonny said:



			Did you see the crowds at Cheltenham ? Appreciate the 400 million pound betting turnover ? Know what people are paying for young potential jumping horses ? I would say racing is doing just fine without the uninterested just latching on to what can go wrong. That&#8217;s what has ruined the grand national and I for one hope that they don&#8217;t do any more to lower the jumps at the other courses. The ground this year probably did have a bearing on what happened but it is unlikely to be that heavy again for a long time
		
Click to expand...

Oh so thats ok then.     The ground might be better next year or maybe it wont.    Maybe it will be worse and 10 horses will die.    Thats fine though as long as you get your entertainment.
Dont lower the fences as it will be less exciting to watch.    So what if a few horses die.   There are plenty more.


----------



## bonny (17 March 2018)

Sandstone1 said:



			Oh so thats ok then.     The ground might be better next year or maybe it wont.    Maybe it will be worse and 10 horses will die.    Thats fine though as long as you get your entertainment.
Dont lower the fences as it will be less exciting to watch.    So what if a few horses die.   There are plenty more.
		
Click to expand...

What do you suggest then ?


----------



## splashgirl45 (17 March 2018)

Sandstone1 said:



			Oh so thats ok then.     The ground might be better next year or maybe it wont.    Maybe it will be worse and 10 horses will die.    Thats fine though as long as you get your entertainment.
Dont lower the fences as it will be less exciting to watch.    So what if a few horses die.   There are plenty more.
		
Click to expand...

while i hate the fact that some horses die in racing PLEASE  spare a thought for the thousands or horses and ponies  who are not in the public eye and are treated very badly and  left to starve to death, or the mares that die when foaling as low lifes cant be bothered to get a vet and then dump the body.  please get angry about that, these animals have months and months slowly dying, a racehorse is well cared for and is put down almost immediately in the case of an accident....


----------



## ester (17 March 2018)

Are there plans to change the orange on the jumps?  It would be interesting to see if that helps at least some of the fallers.


----------



## Sandstone1 (17 March 2018)

bonny said:



			What do you suggest then ?
		
Click to expand...

I would suggest that the fences are made safer.   Less horses are allowed in each race and if the ground is particularly bad the race is not ran.
However I doubt that would be acceptable as it would make racing less exciting.


Dispite you thinking i dont know what im talking about ive had horses for many years and know only too well accidents happen.
That doesnt mean you cant lessen the risks.


----------



## bonny (17 March 2018)

Sandstone1 said:



			I would suggest that the fences are made safer.   Less horses are allowed in each race and if the ground is particularly bad the race is not ran.
However I doubt that would be acceptable as it would make racing less exciting.


Dispite you thinking i dont know what im talking about ive had horses for many years and know only too well accidents happen.
That doesnt mean you cant lessen the risks.
		
Click to expand...

I&#8217;m doubting your racing knowledge not that you have horses. The jumps have been made signicantly easier, numbers of runners have been cut and racing doesn&#8217;t go ahead if the ground is considered unsafe so your proposals are not exactly ground breaking !


----------



## Sandstone1 (17 March 2018)

bonny said:



			I&#8217;m doubting your racing knowledge not that you have horses. The jumps have been made signicantly easier, numbers of runners have been cut and racing doesn&#8217;t go ahead if the ground is considered unsafe so your proposals are not exactly ground breaking !
		
Click to expand...

Im not saying my propsals are ground breaking.   They clearly havent gone far enough have they if the problem still exists?

Do you think things should just be left as they are?   Do you feel its acceptable for 6 horses to die in one race meeting?
There are always going to be accidents that result in horses dying in racing but if you think that in this day and age the general public are going to turn a blind eye to it im afraid you are mistaken.


----------



## bonny (17 March 2018)

Sandstone1 said:



			Im not saying my propsals are ground breaking.   They clearly havent gone far enough have they if the problem still exists?

Do you think things should just be left as they are?   Do you feel its acceptable for 6 horses to die in one race meeting?
There are always going to be accidents that result in horses dying in racing but if you think that in this day and age the general public are going to turn a blind eye to it im afraid you are mistaken.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, I think things should be left how they are, apart from maybe changing the framing of the last race


----------



## Rowreach (17 March 2018)

ester said:



			Are there plans to change the orange on the jumps?  It would be interesting to see if that helps at least some of the fallers.
		
Click to expand...

I think the plan is to roll it out gradually across courses, and it looks like white will be the colour of choice.  I thought it was a very interesting piece of research for many reasons.  It's also interesting how the use of orange evolved - at a time when in SJ there were a lot of brushes and oxer type fences where the use of brush and white painted poles and boards was widespread.  Orange is obviously more visible to a jockey heading at speed towards a fence in murky conditions - but then horses see better in murky conditions than we do anyway.  Maybe an orange and white sight board is the way forward?


----------



## be positive (17 March 2018)

Sandstone1 said:



			Im not saying my propsals are ground breaking.   They clearly havent gone far enough have they if the problem still exists?

Do you think things should just be left as they are?   Do you feel its acceptable for 6 horses to die in one race meeting?
There are always going to be accidents that result in horses dying in racing but if you think that in this day and age the general public are going to turn a blind eye to it im afraid you are mistaken.
		
Click to expand...

Honestly I don't think the "general public" are overly concerned by what goes on in racing any more than they really care about treatment of animals generally, they will have no interest or opinion unless they are already involved in some way either as viewers or possibly having a genuine interest in animal welfare but otherwise it will completely pass them by although possibly fatalities in the Grand National will register as it makes headlines, Cheltenham takes place during the normal working week and the majority of working people will not even know it exists.

Making jumps smaller will mean races run faster, ground being perfect will mean faster races and it is generally speed that causes or contributes to more to fatalities than the height of the jumps or heavy ground although tired horses will be more at risk of falling so from that point heavy ground can contribute but 1 horse fell very early which cannot be because it was tired.


----------



## suffolkmare (17 March 2018)

Well I am glad the BHA are investigating. I am, as I said before, fully aware that there will always be risks...the questions are what level of risk is acceptable? How did the conditions, number of runners, size of fences, routes available to a loose horse contribute or not to the fatalities? All in all it was a good Festival, just a high price on 2 of the days. Perhaps they will conclude that the fatalities were unavoidable bar keeping those horses in their stables wrapped in bubble wrap, but maybe they will spot where a slight alteration could help prevent a similar incident in future.


----------



## millikins (17 March 2018)

Sandstone1 said:



			yes I agree that accidents happen but six deaths in four days?????
 Its not about if I watch it or not is it?  
I dont actually watch much racing but thats not the point.    Are horses so disposable now that six horses dying over a four day meeting is ok?
Yes horses die in lots of sports but would you really expect to see Six die in a four day  event of any other kind.
The point is like it or not if this keeps happening public opinion will go against racing.
		
Click to expand...

I have followed and loved watching racing all my life but maybe I'm getting soft in my old age because I am increasingly agreeing with this. I couldn't watch most of Cheltenham due to work, I tuned in on Friday just in time to see Sansend break down. I agree it isn't cruel, I accept these are working animals not pets and they will see a vet much quicker than if I found one of mine in the field with a broken leg but for me the very real possibility of watching something die is causing me to watch much less.
I also think there continue to be serious welfare issues in racehorses post racing but that's another thread.

And no, I don't have any answer.


----------



## Elf On A Shelf (17 March 2018)

How many of you have stood at a chase fence? Or a hurdle? Hurdles are about 3ft in height, on a slope and fall really easily. Chasee fence are only solid too about 2ft. The rest is stuffed birch that you can burst through - as so many do - hence the expression 'splithing the birch to the boards'. The fences are as safe as they can make them without taking them out all together. The ground was not that bad at Cheltenham,  just cut up as you would expect at the end of 2 days racing on it. Yes 2 days because they have 2 tracks there -the old and the new. One is used for the first 2 days the other for the last 2 days. The ground was not slippy,  it was not holding or tacky. Horses were galloping through it easy enough so no. I do not thing the ground was a factor in the fatalities at all. Quicker ground would have been.

No I don't think 22 horses should be running in such a tight track. Yes Aintree runs 40 but the track is twice the width over the national fences.


----------



## AdorableAlice (17 March 2018)

splashgirl45 said:



			while i hate the fact that some horses die in racing PLEASE  spare a thought for the thousands or horses and ponies  who are not in the public eye and are treated very badly and  left to starve to death, or the mares that die when foaling as low lifes cant be bothered to get a vet and then dump the body.  please get angry about that, these animals have months and months slowly dying, a racehorse is well cared for and is put down almost immediately in the case of an accident....
		
Click to expand...

Quite.  None of us would need to drive very far to see horses living in poor conditions and enduring varying degrees of suffering.  Officers of the WHW will be busy every day and this winter has been a harsh one.

There are huge numbers of racehorses that never reach the course and will never see high standards of care and likewise, there are many racehorses whose life after racing is poor, and that includes high profile horses, Hello Dandy for instance.

No death in competition is acceptable but perspective has to be applied.


----------



## Trules (17 March 2018)

Yes it is a risky and dangerous sport and that is why it evokes such high emotion. That those horses and riders are so very brave in doing what they love and were born to do. Those runners at cheltenham are the cream of the crop. They have proven how talented they are at jump racing and how much they love to jump and gallop.


----------



## ester (17 March 2018)

Thanks Rowreach, I hadn't really heard any more about it but it seems a relatively simple possibly helpful fix so long as the jocks can see it too. 

Personally I have more issues with some of the other problems in and associated with racing as at least catastrophic accidents can be dealt with quickly. However I don't think 6 deaths in a single meeting should be just ignored and we carry on regardless because it 'just happens'.


----------



## Rowreach (17 March 2018)

ester said:



			Thanks Rowreach, I hadn't really heard any more about it but it seems a relatively simple possibly helpful fix so long as the jocks can see it too. 

Personally I have more issues with some of the other problems in and associated with racing as at least catastrophic accidents can be dealt with quickly. However I don't think 6 deaths in a single meeting should be just ignored and we carry on regardless because it 'just happens'.
		
Click to expand...

I think it was a very useful piece of research, and anything that helps the horse to jump better (apparently with white sight boards they made better shapes over the fences) will save fallers because whatever anyone says about only the bottom of the fence being solid and it being possible to brush through the top couple of feet possibly hasn't been on a horse that hits one of them at speed and suffers the consequences!!

I have said before, I love racing, but I know horses die on the track, suffer injuries that require them to be pts or retired, and anything that can reduce the collateral damage is a good thing as far as I'm concerned.  As you say ester, knowing it happens it entirely different to accepting it as being ok.


----------



## Orangehorse (17 March 2018)

I watch NH racing most Saturday afternoons and it has been my impression that throughout the season there have been fewer fallers and most of those have walked away, which is obviously a good thing.  I don't know why, and without data can't be proved but I would put forward:

a.  Courses are better managed with good grass cover and b.  careful siting of fences (remember the notorious Cheltenham fence, now thankfully moved)
c.  Trainers school the horses more - gone are the days when the Novice hurdle runners looked as though they had never seen a fence before, let alone trying to jump and gallop for 2 miles.
d.  Horses are fitter and have more health checks which means they are stronger and better overall condition.
e.  The meetings televised feature better horses - the Irish point to point winner on the up for instance although I know there are plenty of good ones from flat racing too.

I think the worst ever Cheltenham was when the going was fast and the horses went hell for leather.

I know that statistics back up these feelings, there are fewer fatalities than in the past, but put any large animal to gallop and jump and there are going to be falls and some of these falls are going to produce injuries.  I am really not sure what to do about it, but I don't think making the fences smaller is a good idea - they would go even faster.

It is like when a rider has a fall - why do most get up and walk - or limp - away and yet there is sometimes the fall that is fatal when inches can spell life or death.

Incidentally regarding the guard rails - I thought that at one time they were white, and then changed to orange as it was supposed to make them easier for horses to see.


----------



## Rowreach (17 March 2018)

Orangehorse said:



			Incidentally regarding the guard rails - I thought that at one time they were white, and then changed to orange as it was supposed to make them easier for horses to see.
		
Click to expand...

Yes the orange came in during the 60s.  Supposedly easier for both jockeys and horses to see, but then nobody had done any research really into the way humans and horses visualise colours.

It seems that horses are more aware of contrast (hence white rails against dark brown birch is more noticeable to them) but they also can see yellow and bright blue for some reason.  Orange however blends in with the birch for them.

Given that in the mass of other runners, and travelling at speed, there is limited visibility anyway, a white sight rail may well prove to make a difference in the number of fallers, since even glimpses of it on an approach may help a horse to lift off in time and with sufficient height.


----------



## Honeylight (17 March 2018)

I have been trying to defend our sport on the Guardian comments board all week. Many of the posters are obviously very ignorant about horses in general, like saying they are "beaten to death" and "tortured with metal in their mouth and their tongues tied down". Many of these people are the vegan radical abolitionists, who post every time any companion animal is mentioned or animal protein in a recipe. They would never be convinced ever that horses actually enjoy racing, I can tell most do because I used to ride and have ponies and have watched NH racing all my life, and I know they have a good life.
There may have been a problem in that final race, I didn't see it as I don't subscribe to RUK and I was out all day any way. It could have been false ground or as more likely just fate. I thought there would be less serious injuries due to the heavy going this year. I remember in the 1980s/90s about five being killed on each day. I remember a number of trainers saying horses were distracted by a TV airship filming overhead shots. Being such a massive, and at the detriment of all the racing in the season, Cheltenham is where everyone wants to win and I think Jockeys have always taken more risks and gone faster, especially as horses have become faster and lighter.


----------



## ester (17 March 2018)

I really don't think it is a good idea to consider on course deaths as 'fate'!


----------



## Honeylight (17 March 2018)

Well what I was meaning was there was probably no obvious reason.


----------



## ester (17 March 2018)

Ah that is a bit different, fate can imply pre determination.


----------



## Clodagh (17 March 2018)

Honeylight said:



			especially as horses have become faster and lighter.
		
Click to expand...

I think this is very true - Desert Orchid looks like MW hunter nowadays.


----------



## popsdosh (18 March 2018)

Rowreach said:



			Yes the orange came in during the 60s.  Supposedly easier for both jockeys and horses to see, but then nobody had done any research really into the way humans and horses visualise colours.

It seems that horses are more aware of contrast (hence white rails against dark brown birch is more noticeable to them) but they also can see yellow and bright blue for some reason.  Orange however blends in with the birch for them.

Given that in the mass of other runners, and travelling at speed, there is limited visibility anyway, a white sight rail may well prove to make a difference in the number of fallers, since even glimpses of it on an approach may help a horse to lift off in time and with sufficient height.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe it was me but the racing I saw I thought there were less fallers than on average ?
We did some research at Huntingdon about 20 yrs ago when I was involved the only issue with white was when the sun was in their faces several crashed into the bottom of fences as they couldnt pick out the board due to glare and were getting in to close. It took ages to get a day when we would get most daylight conditions we needed and the horses brought over.
One of the issues at cheltenham and it always will be is that the general cruising speed is one to two gears higher as its very competitive and you cannot stop that so the all so rans end up tired and make mistakes. Much has been done for example the third last was always one that claimed a lot as things were just hotting up and it was downhill it was reworked to help them keep their feet on landing. Im sure the enquiry will just come to the conclusion that 3 in the last race was just bad luck as up until then things were a lot less than the average and races that traditionally claim a few had been incident free.
We all want to see racing without fatalities but if racing is made to do that there will be none it wont be racing anymore.Accidents happen in all horse sports just you dont see it ! Most times there is nothing you can change to stop it happening again you just have to accept nobody goes out to kill their horses racing but we also know it can be the ultimate price if things go wrong, they are unpredictable creatures at the end of the day. If you find that unacceptable you dont watch or take part in racing.


----------



## Rowreach (18 March 2018)

popsdosh said:



			Maybe it was me but the racing I saw I thought there were less fallers than on average ?
We did some research at Huntingdon about 20 yrs ago when I was involved the only issue with white was when the sun was in their faces several crashed into the bottom of fences as they couldnt pick out the board due to glare and were getting in to close. It took ages to get a day when we would get most daylight conditions we needed and the horses brought over.
One of the issues at cheltenham and it always will be is that the general cruising speed is one to two gears higher as its very competitive and you cannot stop that so the all so rans end up tired and make mistakes. Much has been done for example the third last was always one that claimed a lot as things were just hotting up and it was downhill it was reworked to help them keep their feet on landing. Im sure the enquiry will just come to the conclusion that 3 in the last race was just bad luck as up until then things were a lot less than the average and races that traditionally claim a few had been incident free.
We all want to see racing without fatalities but if racing is made to do that there will be none it wont be racing anymore.Accidents happen in all horse sports just you dont see it ! Most times there is nothing you can change to stop it happening again you just have to accept nobody goes out to kill their horses racing but we also know it can be the ultimate price if things go wrong, they are unpredictable creatures at the end of the day. If you find that unacceptable you dont watch or take part in racing.
		
Click to expand...

Oh I totally agree, but something as simple as changing the colour of a sight rail may save a few fallers.  As I said above somewhere, maybe the use of orange AND white would make it easy for both jockeys and horses to judge a fence, and would help in cases of bright light, but IME horses are better at seeing fences than we are anyway.  I've certainly had a few "where the heck is it" moments, either because there are other horses in the way or we've been going into the sun, but the horse takes off anyway.  I've had other times where there's been a clear run to the fence and I've been on a good stride and we've gone straight into the top of it.

While there is racing, there will be fallers.  Making the fences smaller won't stop that and may even increase numbers, but helping horses to clear fences can't be a bad thing.


----------



## ester (18 March 2018)

You do see accidents in all horse sports, even more so in the days of the internet, I don't understand that point at all?


----------



## popsdosh (18 March 2018)

Rowreach said:



			While there is racing, there will be fallers.  Making the fences smaller won't stop that and may even increase numbers, but helping horses to clear fences can't be a bad thing.
		
Click to expand...

Yes Doncaster a few years back had fences that were soft and described by jockeys as up turned dandy brushes . Two things came out of that a general increase in racing speed which brought about more injury causing falls . Also trainers kept their horses away because they were generally jumping lower after going round Doncaster as they were complacent.


----------



## popsdosh (18 March 2018)

ester said:



			You do see accidents in all horse sports, even more so in the days of the internet, I don't understand that point at all?
		
Click to expand...

They are not as public. They are not on ITV hd for everybody to see is the point .


----------



## Clodagh (18 March 2018)

You can see how jumpable the fences are when you look at Footpad's mistake, he only just went over the rail and knocked a huge hole in  it, yet stood up to win.


----------



## ester (18 March 2018)

Ah well, it wasn't clear you meant the TV watching general public.


----------



## Fellewell (18 March 2018)

Clodagh said:



			I think this is very true - Desert Orchid looks like MW hunter nowadays.
		
Click to expand...

Speaking of Desert Orchid; didn't he crash out at the first at Kempton in 1983? Some didn't expect him to get up. He went on to a successful career and died in 2006. No one could say that was a life half-lived.


----------



## minesadouble (18 March 2018)

Clodagh said:



			I think this is very true - Desert Orchid looks like MW hunter nowadays.
		
Click to expand...

I remember seeing him next to Yahoo, one of his main rivals, and thinking he liked like a middleweight hunter even in those days.


----------



## ozpoz (18 March 2018)

Like Millisend, I'm also soft in my old age and I don't find myself glued to screen to watch anymore. I do believe that racehorses have a great life and have exemplary care on racecourses. I rode and worked with them as a teenager and admire them immensely ,as much as I admire the bravery of the jockeys and I feel that british racing has to continue to be seen to be continuing to do the very best they can.

The use of research to make fences as safe as they can be is the way forward. There may well be other input which will help.


----------



## tristar (18 March 2018)

just reading that 4 died in one day makes me feel physically sick, i cannot find a way to justify it, no amount of blah blah is going to change the way i feel, it is a gut feeling that i cannot change.

i just think of each horse, beautiful, whole,  here one moment, fatally injured the next because of human exploitation

the state of the ground is a major factor, they will lose money if they cancel.

when my riding surface is a wet, my own horses lose balance and fail to deliver, a racing surface in  6 inches of mud is an unacceptable surface to expect the ultimate effort from.

this is not my emotional opinion.


----------



## {97702} (18 March 2018)

claracanter said:



			If I heard that greyhounds were dying at dog tracks, would I be horrified? Does the fact that we understand racing and know the fragility of the racehorse, any horse in fact, make it acceptable?
.
		
Click to expand...

I would hope you know this already, but many, many greyhounds die at dog tracks every year.  I hope everyone is horrified by that fact, and seeks to boycott greyhound racing in every way possible


----------



## Clodagh (18 March 2018)

Lévrier;13743888 said:
			
		


			I would hope you know this already, but many, many greyhounds die at dog tracks every year.  I hope everyone is horrified by that fact, and seeks to boycott greyhound racing in every way possible
		
Click to expand...

Trouble is - would it be better if all greyhounds ended up like the Crufts dog? As surely if they didn't race there would be no need to breed fit, athletic types. I work with a lady that trains and races greyhounds, and by her own standards she loves them and looks after them well. Yes some get injured, but I had 2 hunters that broke down and had them both PTS. (Ultimately, they had due treatment first)
If we stopped all horses being ridden and dogs being used for work then that would be the kindest thing, but would it do them any favours, long term?


----------



## ester (18 March 2018)

on a friends facebook post someone said if dogs were dying at crufts agility/flyball people would be appalled. I considered it not very relevant on the basis that injuries happen doing those things but it is a whole lot easier to fix up a dog than a horse. 
However one of the comments made was that those things were tangibly good for the dog, whereas racing was just for humans. I was unconvinced that line could be drawn as physically those horses are in a lot better nick than a lot of the leisure horse population.


----------



## {97702} (18 March 2018)

ester said:



			on a friends facebook post someone said if dogs were dying at crufts agility/flyball people would be appalled. I considered it not very relevant on the basis that injuries happen doing those things but it is a whole lot easier to fix up a dog than a horse. 
However one of the comments made was that those things were tangibly good for the dog, whereas racing was just for humans. I was unconvinced that line could be drawn as physically those horses are in a lot better nick than a lot of the leisure horse population.
		
Click to expand...

It IS a lot easier to fix up a dog than a horse, but sadly not all greyhound trainers will bother to do that - I still have in my mind a video I saw of a greyhound that broke his hind leg racing and did the last lap on 3 legs, with the broken leg flapping...... he was shot.....


----------



## {97702} (18 March 2018)

Clodagh said:



			Trouble is - would it be better if all greyhounds ended up like the Crufts dog? As surely if they didn't race there would be no need to breed fit, athletic types. I work with a lady that trains and races greyhounds, and by her own standards she loves them and looks after them well. Yes some get injured, but I had 2 hunters that broke down and had them both PTS. (Ultimately, they had due treatment first)
If we stopped all horses being ridden and dogs being used for work then that would be the kindest thing, but would it do them any favours, long term?
		
Click to expand...

I am told that in ireland they breed something like 10,000 greyhounds a year for racing.  If excessive breeding like that comes to an end I would not be sorry.  There is absolutely no need for greyhounds to become like those horrendous show specimens - there are plenty of dogs which were working dogs but are no longer so that haven't become such distorted versions of their former selves.


----------



## Clodagh (19 March 2018)

Lévrier;13743977 said:
			
		


			I am told that in ireland they breed something like 10,000 greyhounds a year for racing.  If excessive breeding like that comes to an end I would not be sorry.  There is absolutely no need for greyhounds to become like those horrendous show specimens - there are plenty of dogs which were working dogs but are no longer so that haven't become such distorted versions of their former selves.
		
Click to expand...

I am trying to think of some. (I am sure there are but off the top of my head I can't). 
I agree that 10000 is a massive number. I wonderwhat percentage race? Ditto tbs I suppose.


----------



## SpottyMare (19 March 2018)

According to this (page 11) 4366 TB foals were born in the UK in 2012.  It's quite an interesting read generally, although it's purely economics.

https://www.thetba.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Economic-Impact-Study.pdf


----------

