# Explosive behaviour from 4yo... opinions, please?



## Breez (30 July 2014)

Please bear with me, as this may be long - if you're short of time just read the final paragraph  Any replies appreciated.

I've recently brought home a 4yo gelding (nearly 4 weeks ago). He's a very sweet chap, very friendly, sociable, loves both people and horses. He was sent to a professional breaker in February by his previous owner, and was fully broken to a point of walk, trot and canter on both reins. He's also been hacked down quiet lanes on his own, but hasn't been worked since returning from the breaker's (May this year).

We gave him a couple of weeks to settle, then started groundwork with him. We established that he was fine with tack, he was clued up in walk and trot on the lunge, and he was fine when long reined around the school. Stirrups were swung, saddles were banged, plenty of desensitising stuff done and he was golden. He was leant over (full body weight), and still no issues. Great. 

So, Friday before last (18th) we decided to take it to the next step and sit a rider on him (myself). My weight had barely touched the saddle when he freaked, took off, and full rodeo-style bronked the length of an olympic sized school. I attempted to sit it, and ended up hitting the deck at the top end, flat on my back. After regaining the use of my lungs(!), I got on again, very slowly, like you would first backing. He was unsure, but didn't lose it. We left it there.

We continued the sitting-on work every other day from there on, very slowly, but gradually increasing the time sat on him. Plenty of reassurance given by a friend on the ground. He began to relax as the week went on, and by last Sunday (27th) he was offering a very relaxed walk forwards, so we did a few strides and left there. On Monday he offered more, so we walked around the school with a rider - he didn't put a foot wrong. He then had a day off.

Today we went to pick up where we left off. Mounted in the same fashion, slowly, only the minute my weight touched the saddle he freaked again. Reared vertically, and took off bronking. Having hurt myself the first time I slid off as he went, and watched the mid-air acrobatics from the ground. He bombed round the school for a couple of circuits, then stopped & relaxed. He was happy to stand next to the mounting block and with light weight leant over him (sleepy eyes, not a care in the world), but the minute more weight was applied we had a similar response - rearing and shooting forwards. The panic subsided very quickly every time, and to look at him in his stable afterwards you'd be none the wiser.

Now, my question - what would be your first port of call? Teeth have been checked and are fine, back will be checked ASAP (although he's not reluctant to be saddled, and shows no reaction to having finger pressure applied to his back), saddle is a Solution saddle so there is nothing to pinch. He's a well built 15.2, I'm 5'6 and 10st. I'm struggling to wrap my head around how he can be so well behaved (and verging lazy!) for the past few days; he'd relaxed, he was accepting it all like a pro, and he was doing really well. Suddenly we've hit another (bigger) explosion when nothing has changed, and I can't quite fathom it? I've backed before, I've broken before, every youngster I've done up until now has either been relaxed, or nervous. Never relaxed with episodes of panic. I've spoken to the professional responsible for breaking him, she claims he never misbehaved when with her, however she was particularly cagey in regards to giving information on what she'd done with him. He's also been known to panic when tied up (no tack / riding type stuff in sight). 

Thoughts / opinions appreciated? Thank you.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (30 July 2014)

Not broken, or failed  is my summation. Have you bought this animal as a lightly backed four year old without trying it?


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## JanetGeorge (30 July 2014)

I would put money on the professional being a liar (whoops, sorry, perhaps 'economical with the full facts'.)  And we wonder why the owner didn't ride him once he was home??

I would put money on him having had a BAD fright during breaking.  He's getting over it - but it creeps up on him for some unknown cause (it's amazing what can freak out a horse!)  If I'm right, the answer is to start him each day like a new breaker - if he is tense and re-active, go back a step (or 3) and just lunge.  See how it progresses and whether the days he 'freaks out' get further apart.

There are other possible causes (rather nasty ones, like a brain tumour) but far less likely!


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## Breez (30 July 2014)

Bonkers2 - Bought as fully broken (I asked at time of purchase if they meant backed, I was told "No, fully broken"). He was sold from field due to owner's (genuine) ill health - really lovely people who want him returned to them should he not be right, however I'm curious as to others' opinions. Failed breaking, pain response, something else?


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## Breez (30 July 2014)

JanetGeorge - Economical with the truth, I like that term!! There seems to be a bizarre lack of photos of him ridden, when other horses at the same breakers have varying ones available. He wasn't ridden on return due to ill health and daughter's pregnancy. Back to complete basics and play by ear, then?


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## Exploding Chestnuts (30 July 2014)

Return him, exchange for cash and look for something else.


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## JanetGeorge (30 July 2014)

Breez said:



			JanetGeorge - Economical with the truth, I like that term!! There seems to be a bizarre lack of photos of him ridden, when other horses at the same breakers have varying ones available. He wasn't ridden on return due to ill health and daughter's pregnancy. Back to complete basics and play by ear, then?
		
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You coud return him - or start again from scratch - depends a bit on how brave you are!  What is his breeding??


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## Slightlyconfused (30 July 2014)

JanetGeorge said:



			I would put money on the professional being a liar (whoops, sorry, perhaps 'economical with the full facts'.)  And we wonder why the owner didn't ride him once he was home??

I would put money on him having had a BAD fright during breaking.  He's getting over it - but it creeps up on him for some unknown cause (it's amazing what can freak out a horse!)  If I'm right, the answer is to start him each day like a new breaker - if he is tense and re-active, go back a step (or 3) and just lunge.  See how it progresses and whether the days he 'freaks out' get further apart.

There are other possible causes (rather nasty ones, like a brain tumour) but far less likely!
		
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This.....

Hope you are able to work through it.


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## Breez (30 July 2014)

JanetGeorge said:



			You coud return him - or start again from scratch - depends a bit on how brave you are!  What is his breeding??
		
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He's a real sweetie, and it seems early days to call quits... but as to bravery, we'll see on that one!! The falls haven't been too horrific as yet. He's PBA.


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## JanetGeorge (30 July 2014)

Breez said:



			He's a real sweetie, and it seems early days to call quits... but as to bravery, we'll see on that one!! The falls haven't been too horrific as yet. He's PBA.
		
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lol, bet you don't know what the other 'part' is!  Worst mannered horse I EVER had was a Cleveland BayxAnglo-Arab!  But the hardest to back was a Jazz gelding that someone else had ********* up badly!


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## Breez (30 July 2014)

JanetGeorge said:



			lol, bet you don't know what the other 'part' is!  Worst mannered horse I EVER had was a Cleveland BayxAnglo-Arab!  But the hardest to back was a Jazz gelding that someone else had ********* up badly!
		
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lol! I'm beginning to remember why I like untouched youngsters... my pure Arab didn't give me this much trouble! He's majority Arab, the rest is mainly TB and Saddlebred.


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## Attie (30 July 2014)

I bought my 4 year old 4 months ago broken and lightly ridden. I knew the people who'd bred him and I tried him before buying and he was v nice if slightly anxious. Started riding him and he had a total meltdown and dropped me very hard. Hurt me a lot and scared him even more. I found a good trainer with tons of experience with youngsters and went back to the beginning- no point in trying to work out what he had or hadn't done before, the important thing was the horse I had now. Lovely manners and nature but needed to get him past the fright and anxiety.  3 months on we have now just started jumping. I look back and can't quite believe we ever made it to now. The other day my trainer said to me ' I bet this is now the horse you thought you'd bought originally' and it is. If you like him, start him again. If not send him back and start again. Good luck!


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## Breez (30 July 2014)

Thanks Attie, that's reassuring. I'll take a look into local trainers... seems such a shame that somebody has potentially spoilt such a lovely natured boy  Such is life I guess... I'm glad you and your guy are back on track - fab post!


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## Attie (30 July 2014)

Ironic really isn't it when you buy a young horse already broken to bring on because you don't have time or experience to start one, then you end up having to re-start one with history, so its a much harder job! 

I couldn't have done it on my own though so hope you strike lucky like me and find someone sane and sensible to get you both up and going together!


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## bollybop (30 July 2014)

Personally I'd be getting the vet out first. Could be kissing spines or ulcers


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## ladyt25 (30 July 2014)

Having been through,  and still going through this with my 'youngster' (now 5), I would suggest double checking and triple checking the fitting of your saddle. 
In addition, get a decent physio /chiro out to check him out before trying a saddle on again. 
Mine starting the backing process very much well - I just started it myself and he was fab but, after getting him what I thought would be a suitably wide saddle it all went rather wrong and said saddle caused a very similar and very extreme reaction.. The first signs were subtle - bit of girthiness and nappiness but then he bronced me off twice,  second time it hurt and meant a trip to A&E!
After a year of essentially trying to regain his trust (he became very worried about anything going near his back and our mctimoney guy said his back was in spasm), I am now starting over. I have had to have a saddle made as he's so wide but that needs further adjustment (another story!). Hopefully once I'm happy he's happy I will send him away to a friend to re-back as I feel slightly nervous of doing it again to be honest. 
The thing is, don't always assume the worst. I had my youngster from 15mths so know his history. I made a mistake and he is much more sensitive than I gave him credit for. I know underneath he's a nice horse and it will come. 
Maybe don't put pressure on yourself to get on now. Start from the beginning with him would be my suggestion.


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## Illusion100 (31 July 2014)

I'm sorry to hear this OP.

It would be impossible to say if it is pain related or due to bad breaking. Whatever it is I hope you both get through it and have a great time together. Your horse does sound very sweet in general and you think so too.

Wishing you the very best, please keep us all updated.


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## Breez (31 July 2014)

bollybop said:



			Personally I'd be getting the vet out first. Could be kissing spines or ulcers
		
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I've considered both, but would it be normal for the behavior to be intermittent? I was under the impression with both that he would be uncomfortable at least the majority of the time? He's never girthy or grumpy, eats fine, is happy in himself, and we've had over a week of no untoward behavior. It's just the odd explosion? I still plan on speaking to vet, however any info re: normal symptoms would be fab.



ladyt25 said:



			Having been through,  and still going through this with my 'youngster' (now 5), I would suggest double checking and triple checking the fitting of your saddle. 
In addition, get a decent physio /chiro out to check him out before trying a saddle on again.
		
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I've had issues with youngsters and saddle fit in the past - I know what they're like for changing shape which is why I'm using a Smart Solution saddle. There is no rigid tree, so there is nothing to pinch / cause pain. He doesn't hide from the saddle, he's never girthy, he's never pulled faces when putting the saddle on. He actually went to sleep in the stable the first time we girthed it up fully.



Illusion100 said:



			I'm sorry to hear this OP.

It would be impossible to say if it is pain related or due to bad breaking. Whatever it is I hope you both get through it and have a great time together. Your horse does sound very sweet in general and you think so too.

Wishing you the very best, please keep us all updated.
		
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I will do, thank you. I'm thinking a discussion with his previous owner may be initial port of call, then medical checks and back to basics (having said that, you'd think that sitting on for 30secs and dismounting would be fairly basic...)? I really didn't expect this kind of reaction from him when you look at his temperament. I'm just curious as to whether anybody has experienced similar intermittent behavior from a pain-related issue?


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## Joyous70 (31 July 2014)

We have just had a similar situation at our yard

A lady purchased a 4 yo irish horse, who had been "fully broken", after several episodes as you describe, she decided she had eaten enough dirt and got our local guy in to work with the horse, as she wasn't prepared to do it herself.


The horse was taken right back to basics, and after a few weeks is now able to be ridden, however, he did say the horse had either been rushed or given a fright during the backing process and did not like the pressure she was being put under as she didn't fully understand what was being asked of her.  So he took things very slowly.

I think the answer OP is right back to the beginning as JG suggested, providing all the usual back, tack etc. is all ok.

Hope you get this sorted.


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## NellRosk (31 July 2014)

Can you get in touch with the professional who broke him and ask if anything happened? Wishing you luck OP, once the vet has checked him and given him the all clear it might be beneficial for him to have a little holiday and start again next spring.


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## asommerville (31 July 2014)

My boy was similarly fine with everything like yours - and had a similar response to yours also at one point.  My thoughts were he didn't like moving when he could see something above him so we brought out zeddy the teddy - a big massive wobbly thing which was strapped onto his back and introduced him to seein something behind him without the need for me to hit the deck again!  Probably not what a lot if people would do but it worked for me!!


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## SadKen (31 July 2014)

My previous lad did exactly this and bronced me twice, I had no chance of staying on and was lucky to avoid a serious injury.

He was broken very badly in my opinion, I don't know what they did but I found out it only cost 40quid a week so I'd imagine they stuck a saddle on him and scared the hell out of him. 

In addition we found out that the saddle I was using was too long and had a hard patch of flocking put in to try and even up the slight difference in his back. this saddle was fitted by a master saddler as a new saddle. Yes, I was furious when I found out.

My suspicion is that the saddle was uncomfortable and as he'd not been broken properly this contributed to the explosive reaction when the saddle hurt. 

I don't know much about the saddle you're using but if you can try a different one it might give a better result. My lad was sold as he was too much for me anyway, but he had a physio visit and visibly relaxed once she'd been. He's been fine in a treeless ever since. Could your saddle be too long?

Also don't be fooled by the sleepy eyes after an explosion, in my experience it's the endorphins killing pain as a result of the adrenalin release.

Good luck, do come back and tell us when you've solved it!


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## saddlesore (31 July 2014)

If it were me I'd return him. Only 4 weeks ago you bought a 'fully broken' horse and now you have one that is potentially dangerous and could cost a lot of money to put right. Not worth it IMO no matter how much you like him, you'll like one that will do your job more!


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## Breez (31 July 2014)

Joyous - thanks, it's sounding more and more like bad breaking 

Nell - I've been on touch with the professional. She claims he was well behaved throughout the breaking process, but she's been very vague and dodged direct questions. She said that he was hard work for the first week, but was fine one they "built a bond", which allegedly took all of a week(???). 

asommerville - maybe worth a shot! The odd thing with this boy is he seems okay with having someone above / behind him, it's the weight itself that appears to kick him off.

Sadken - I'm not sure what type of saddle he was broken in, it's quite possible that it didn't fit correctly. However the saddle he's in now is a very reputable treeless, which is a 17" seat. He's 15.2 with an average length back, so it's unlikely that it's too long for him. That's shocking about your boy. 

Saddlesore - The thought has crossed my mind, but at the same time he's such a lovely boy who's perfect in every other way... I spent months finding the right horse this time. I'm torn as to whether this is worth battling at the moment. To say I'm confused is an understatement.


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## asommerville (31 July 2014)

I think - but I'm a sap that if a horse is a nice person they are worth the extra effort.  My boys a part bred Arab, and he was tricky to back, his reaction to something he didn't like was to run away bronking.  Like I said above we sorted out the problem and he was a star after that.  If he's good in every other respect it might be worth ruling out the pain thing and them going back a few steps, maybe he's a wee but sensitive and his wee head us wasted with being backed and having a new owner - I really hope you sort him out x


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## Fiona_C (31 July 2014)

Whereabouts are you based?  PM if you prefer x


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## Sparkles (31 July 2014)

Go back to scratch completely. Treat him unbroken, with a slight err of caution along with it. Even if he was sent to be #professionally' broken....there's no way he'd have done enough in how ever many weeks he was there to have done a major amount of anything, certainly not balanced, and then not doing anything since either.

I'd just start completely from scratch. Ground work ground work ground wor, get him balanced and working on the ground and understanding everything...you can never do too much. Do intermittant weight up and on in, but don't focus too much on the riding part I personally wouldn't. At his age, there is so much more ground work you can do to get him easier managable and predictable.  Then translate it easier with him understanding more introducing the ridden work. 

Good luck.


eta - just seen the treeless comment. Could it be a case of he's never had a 'bareback' feel to him with weight directly on him more? I always break bareback personally...however not many profs will I've noticed [not stating all....just personal findings]. Could be just a 'wierd' feeling for him also? Doubtful it's the sole reason, but only mention it as I had a fully schooled hunter explode under me when I thought it would be no prob to have a bareback session.....he did not like the feeling however and bronced like stink first time with one! He was a complete schoolmaster!]


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## Twinkley Lights (31 July 2014)

If you are near Goole East Yorks Guy Robertson is fantastic with troubled sorts he is dead straight and won't keep taking money if he can't help.


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## Breez (31 July 2014)

asommerville - Oh I agree, totally. This guy was supposed to be here for life - no more horse shopping, and I've had Arabs before. I know they can be difficult, rather sensitive souls, and I wasn't expecting him to be a walk in the park. He's definitely worth the effort, but at the same time my main dealbreaker is rearing (along with bolting... go figure). I've never had a horse go vertical with me until yesterday. I'll be honest - it shook me a little.

Fiona - I've PM'd you.

CS - My plan was to restart him regardless, however I didn't think that slowly sitting on and dismounting again would be such a big deal. That was all we were aiming for initially. Groundwork, some weight in the saddle, and more groundwork. As it was that resulted in the first bronking session, and I came to the conclusion that it couldn't be left on that note. Re: treeless, he's in a Smart Solution, so although it is rigid-free, is is still a fairly sturdy construction. It's not a bareback-pad type treeless, and I've yet to find a horse that reacts differently to that saddle (though there's a first time for everything!). Again, the bit that confuses me is that he was perfect one day, then in total meltdown from the word "go" the next. There was nothing different. Same tack, same saddlepads, same school, same mounting block, same rider, same time of day and busy-ness, hell even the same weather. I don't get it.

ETA: TL, sadly not  We're Midlands based.


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## Sparkles (31 July 2014)

Aaah ok sorry I wasn't sure type you meant when you said treeless. Was only a passing thought. Can rule that out then 

On a different tangent, deffo wasn't stung anywhere by anything etc etc? Thinking outside of the box if he was that quiet in every other aspect till then?

All the best with him.


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## Breez (1 August 2014)

ChristmasSparkles said:



			Aaah ok sorry I wasn't sure type you meant when you said treeless. Was only a passing thought. Can rule that out then 

On a different tangent, deffo wasn't stung anywhere by anything etc etc? Thinking outside of the box if he was that quiet in every other aspect till then?

All the best with him.
		
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Thank you. No noticeable bites / stings / etc anywhere, but I wouldn't discount it. He does appear to have minor meltdowns at strange times, yet 95% of the time he's as chilled out as you like.

Physio will be looking at his back start of next week, and I'll have a chat with his previous owner over the weekend. Directly after his last explosion he was put on the lunge in full tack, stirrups left down, and send round in walk and trot. No problem at all. Weird.


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## BayLady (1 August 2014)

I agree with the others re starting from scratch if you decide to keep him. 

Re the saddle.  When I got my boy last year, also 4yr old and recently backed, I didn't have a treed saddle for him so used my Fitform treeless.  He went very nicely in this but it didn't give me much support and after a couple of worrying hacks I decided to try something else.  As he's young and likely to change I wanted to stay with a treeless, so went for a HM FlexEE.  He hated it.  I only realised it was the saddle causing his problem when I had him fitted for a treed after him losing the plot as I was trying to fasten up the dressage girth.  Having to lean right over on a young horse who's unpredictable is bad enough, never mind having them leg it and bronc whilst you're half off with only one girth billet fastened, so I decided to get a GP saddle with normal length girth as a last resort.  

He's been fairly angelic since swopping saddles.  All the napping, running through the shoulder, threatening to rear has just disappeared.  The FlexEE is purported as being one of the better treeless saddles available, especially on a budget,  but for some reason he couldn't stand it.  He goes sweetly in the Fitform and now in his treed (started with a Black Country which he's outgrown so now he has a K&M cob with the xwide gullet).

So, perhaps don't rule out the saddle as the problem just yet.  He might be fine with it until you put weight on it in a certain spot or certain way, which is why the behaviour is intermittent.


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## Red-1 (1 August 2014)

I do like the Solution Treeless saddles, but I think it is a dangerous thing to think that because they do not have a tree they cannot cause harm. A pair of shoes does not have a tree, but they sure as hell can make my feet sore. 

That particular treeless has a very firm gullet that my horse finds too tight. He went better in the solution old type with no gullet at all, and soft pads to make the top miss the wither. 

With the Smart version he was not happy. 

The Smart felt nicer to me, but not to my horse.

I do believe they can be Made to fit most horses with pads, shims etc, but if the base of the saddle is so firm, even without a tree, it is easier to misplace a shim etc. I would see if you could try one of the older style solution saddles, preferably with no gullet, for elimination purposes.


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## Breez (1 August 2014)

Thanks guys. I do appreciate that the saddle isn't necessarily perfect, my point is that there is nothing rigid to specifically cause pain. I'm aware that some horses do dislike the feel of Solutions, however to purely sit & dismount the strange feelings shouldn't be too much of an issue. He's actually in a Smart Native (I don't think the gullet is as solid as the normal Smarts), but as he does have some in the way of withers, it's padded up underneath with a thick numnah and prolite pad. I don't have another suitable saddle to hand, but I will bear it in mind.

He was particularly "off" with me tonight. Quite antisocial, not sure about being caught, and generally a tad grumpy. Physio booked for Tues. I'm feeling rather disheartened at the minute.


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## Spring Feather (1 August 2014)

I have to say I agree with those who have suggested failure of the trainer who backed him.  I have one of my youngsters back.  I have never sent a youngster away to be backed, we back all of our youngsters ourselves, but this spring I just didn't have the time so I sent my youngster to a respectable trainer (I am in the horse business so I know who to use and who not to).  I don't know what went on but for the first two weeks all the reports were great (with hindsight of course they were great as all the groundwork I had done with her prior to her going there!).  This sounded just like my young horse as she has always been eager to learn and please.  And then at the beginning of the third week the report was not good at all.  She bronked the rider off.  I went down as soon as I could to see what was going on (a 6 hour round trip) and then I saw, what I judged as a poor training schedule.  So after staying overnight in a hotel, I made the decision to take her home with me the following day, which I did.  She's been home a while now and I have taken things very slowly with her.  We've gone back many steps just to get her to where she was before she left and we're miles behind where we would have been if we'd started her.

There is nothing physically wrong with mine; it's just something went wrong in the backing process and it's always harder to make good a bad job than it is starting from scratch.


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## snowstormII (2 August 2014)

saddlesore said:



			If it were me I'd return him. Only 4 weeks ago you bought a 'fully broken' horse and now you have one that is potentially dangerous and could cost a lot of money to put right. Not worth it IMO no matter how much you like him, you'll like one that will do your job more!
		
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^^^^This! I have recently learned the hard way that life is too short to have a horse in your life that frightens you...even just a little bit. It has a knock on effect on how you deal with that horse and even the people around you, who love you. I now have the sweetest friend of a horse I can trust and life is good. I realised I painted myself into a corner with the previous unsafe horse as 'I didn't want to let her down by bailing out and returning her'. Would have saved a whole lot of broken bones and tears if I had in the early days! However you may be a much braver woman than me and have much more experience. Listen to what your gut tells you and do what is right for you. Good luck!


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## siennamum (2 August 2014)

We had to break a strange shaped horse in a treeless  - a decent one. It made his back sore after just a few ridden sessions. If you keep the horse, I really would invest in a decent saddle.


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## Breez (2 August 2014)

Spring Feather said:



			There is nothing physically wrong with mine; it's just something went wrong in the backing process and it's always harder to make good a bad job than it is starting from scratch.
		
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That's awful, SF. It's a very real concern at the moment, the question is just how difficult it would be to rectify a bad job.



snowstormII said:



			^^^^This! I have recently learned the hard way that life is too short to have a horse in your life that frightens you...even just a little bit. It has a knock on effect on how you deal with that horse and even the people around you, who love you. I now have the sweetest friend of a horse I can trust and life is good. I realised I painted myself into a corner with the previous unsafe horse as 'I didn't want to let her down by bailing out and returning her'. Would have saved a whole lot of broken bones and tears if I had in the early days! However you may be a much braver woman than me and have much more experience. Listen to what your gut tells you and do what is right for you. Good luck!
		
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Thank you. I honestly don't know whether it's worth the battle or not at the moment. As you say, once bones are broken it's a little late. I'm a relatively brave rider, but I think vertical rearing is possibly where I draw the line... I don't know. The conversation will be had tomorrow, I think, or perhaps we'll hear the physio out first. I couldn't even catch him today, for the first time since arriving.



siennamum said:



			We had to break a strange shaped horse in a treeless  - a decent one. It made his back sore after just a few ridden sessions. If you keep the horse, I really would invest in a decent saddle.
		
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My Solution cost me in excess of £2200. Believe me, it's a decent saddle. I love it, and every horse I've used it on to date has gotten on very well with it, which includes everything from hacking for hours to jumping courses. I genuinely don't think the saddle is the main issue, here.


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## JoannaC (2 August 2014)

Do you know his breeding, does he have  Moonshine Vision in there at all?


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## Breez (2 August 2014)

JoannaC said:



			Do you know his breeding, does he have  Moonshine Vision in there at all?
		
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...Moonshine Vision is his sire!! Dare I ask?


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## JoannaC (2 August 2014)

Only that I've heard of a few similar traits in horses by Moonshine Vision, think they can be quite difficult but once you get through it are good competition horses.   Also know of some that have been no problem but there does seem to be that tendency in some of them.


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## Breez (2 August 2014)

Ah really? Generally difficult or in a specific way?


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## Booga22 (4 August 2014)

bollybop said:



			Personally I'd be getting the vet out first. Could be kissing spines or ulcers
		
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I admit I haven't read through all of the replies but this is EXACTLY what my mare did at the beginning of her working career. Started out hacking quietly and she was great - as soon as we ventured in to the arena, she exploded - pretty much in the same style as you describe and after investigations, she was diagnosed with kissing spine...... Oh, and ulcers too for good measure!
Fast forward 18 months and you wouldn't even know it now


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## spotty_pony (4 August 2014)

Definitely have the Vet out first to check for pain issues. Have you had his teeth done too? Me and a fellow workmate re-broke a lovely Connemara gelding earlier this year due to him having a reputation for flipping out out of nowhere and decking people. We started him from scratch as we thought he wasn't broken properly - he was turned away prior to this for a bit first too. He was back in work for about 6 week when out of nowhere, he grew about a hand and went crazy and bucked me off. He was very laid back to ride usually and if anything a bit lazy! This was clearly a pain response and so I didn't remount and refused to carry on riding him. I think the time he had off, his back had got better and then the ridden work had made him sore again - I think he potentially had kissing spine but it wasn't investigated and the owner sold him on. Such a shame though, if I was rich I would have bought him and got his back sorted and then maybe started him again once I knew he definitely wasn't in pain. So in answer to your question - yes things like this can be intermittent.


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## Breez (5 August 2014)

Thanks both, that's good to know.

Physio is coming out this afternoon, so hopefully we'll know more today.


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## Breez (5 August 2014)

Sorry, too late to edit! Teeth checked last week, they're fine


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## old hand (5 August 2014)

teddy can work, big one like from funfair.  If he still does it you will know its more than just fright ( give him a chance to get used to it though).  Saddle too narrow , low or long can cause this.  or even tightening the girth too quickly,  some horses that appear quiet are freezing so check his eyes all the time and watch for him holding his breath - all indicators he is panicking on the inside.  Also check his pulse rate it may be high even if he  appears calm.  The difficulty is finding the problem as it could be pain or fear, or even just remembered pain.  however if teddy rides him successfully for a couple of weeks try re backing him with someone very light, my view is that some horses have more pliable spines as they fuse later and cannot carry anything like the weight they are supposed to, hence the incidence of kissing spine as the spine drops and the spines impinge.  10% of bodyweight is plenty for backing and lighter better.  was taught by a very experienced lady and she would not put more than eight stone on a 16.2hh horse to start with and for some weeks after.  she never had any back or lameness problems with her horses.  heavier riders rode them after about six months, she rode them herself once backed and weighed about nine stone and was 6ft.


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## Fides (5 August 2014)

Why are you so reluctant to get the saddle checked. Just because it cost £2200 doesn't mean it is a guaranteed fit. By your own admission you are shimming it up as it isn't sitting properly.

I'd also check for ulcers. It is a widely reported that ulcer pain is intermittent and depends on how empty the stomach is before riding.


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## Breez (5 August 2014)

Physio's findings: spasm / pain rated on a scale of 1 through 10, 10 being the most painful. Poll to shoulder 4/10, back 7/10, loins to pelvis 8/10. She claims vet may be a good idea, or we can see if treatment makes a difference. Also weak on right quarter (possible old injury), stilted gait behind in trot. Feeling a bit flat... and wondering whether a second opinion may be a good call.

Bloody horses.


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## Amymay (5 August 2014)

Surely vet is the _only_ way to go at this stage??

And of course, the saddle fit.....


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## zigzag (5 August 2014)

I would get the vet... and also a saddle check


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## Red-1 (5 August 2014)

I agree with calling the vet if that is the pain level of your horse.

I did not know that you are using Prolite Pads with your Solution. They are not ideal, the gullet on the Prolite is too small for these closer fitting saddles. The Prolite padding is wedged into the saddle gullet. I would talk to Ann Bondi, owner of Solution Saddles, who would be able to help you with their under saddle shims and pads. I would call her out in any case, it really is not that simple to fit a Soultion Smart. They recommend you have Ann or one of their approved fitters to do the initial fitting. They invest a lot of time and money in training their saddle fitters.

If you think about it even numnahs that are pulled down onto the withers can cause pain and soreness. 

As I said before, the Smart has a lot more firm a feel in the gullet, which is great for some horses, but mine preferred the wider gullet or no gullet of the older Solutions. I also padded up until there was a one finger gap, but with the pads supplied by Ann Bondi, not a Prolite. 

I would also recommend you see Ann as she is passionate about helping horses, and will do her utmost to help. They sometimes have saddle testing days where the horse is pressure mapped, it may be worth doing that, and if your horse is showing so much pain reaction after use of a Solution, I am sure she would like to get to the root of the problem (if that does not turn out simply to be the Prolite pad, or that the saddle was never fitted to the horse). 

If you have not had it fitted by a Solution fitter, the fitter would be able to firstly adjust the fit for now and then also advise on how you may be able to adjust as your horse develops. They will also help you to identify when you need a visit by the fitter again, as horses often change shape when being ridden in a Solution.

I have had great success in a couple of hard to fit horses with Solution saddles (in fact I am one of the satisfied customers on their website - it stopped a horse we believed to be starting with navic from having any symptoms - he was transformed), but without a proper fitting you are not giving the saddle a chance.


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## Breez (5 August 2014)

I think you're all missing the fact that this horse has been sat on 6 times in total, for no more than 15 minutes cumulative over those 6 times. The saddle doesn't pinch, doesn't press anywhere it shouldn't, there's no tree to be fitted and he's perfectly happy having it put on and girthed up. The saddle really isn't the issue here (believe me, I'm not trying to defend myself, but 15mins use of a flexible saddle is not going to do that to his back!). It will be checked by my rep when he is in a state to consider ridden work - I'm not stupid, I've had the reps out various times before and they're fab, it will be done when possible. 

Vet will be called, but after recent luck with horses I'm about ready to sit in a corner and cry.


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## Voxhorse (6 August 2014)

IMO he was not properly/fully broke and the things he is reacting to are things he has not been introduced to, ie a saddle and weight or was introduced to in an aggressive manner.

Let him settle in, have him looked over by a vet and then go back to the basics and begin again. The 'pro' dodging your questions & being shady may have fried his brain! and knows it!

Good luck.


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## Voxhorse (6 August 2014)

Bonkers2 said:



			Return him, exchange for cash and look for something else.
		
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Just return him to people who may have messed him up ? with the right people and going back to the start he may well be a fab horse as OP has said he is friendly and good natured.


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## Voxhorse (6 August 2014)

Voxhorse said:



			IMO he was not properly/fully broke and the things he is reacting to are things he has not been introduced to correctly, ie a saddle and weight or was introduced to in an aggressive manner or....... pain in his back.

Let him settle in, have him looked over by a vet and then go back to the basics and begin again. The 'pro' dodging your questions & being shady may have fried his brain! and knows it!

Good luck.
		
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 he sounds very sweet natured though


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## superpony (6 August 2014)

I would get the vet out and then depending on the outcome seriously think about returning him to his previous owner.. this horse sadly could end up costing you an awful lot of money.  Really hope you get him sorted though as he sounds a lovely chap. Keep us updated!


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## Elsbells (6 August 2014)

Just wanted to say ((((hugs)))) OP, it's a horrible situation and I hope you get it resolved soon. Damn horses take us to the line and back sometimes.


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## Casey76 (6 August 2014)

Just to say, not all horses like the feel of a treeless saddle, so whilst they may seem like the perfect solution, it may be making matters worse.


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## Breez (6 August 2014)

Breez said:



			I think you're all missing the fact that this horse has been sat on 6 times in total, for no more than 15 minutes cumulative over those 6 times. The saddle doesn't pinch, doesn't press anywhere it shouldn't, there's no tree to be fitted and he's perfectly happy having it put on and girthed up. The saddle really isn't the issue here (believe me, I'm not trying to defend myself, but 15mins use of a flexible saddle is not going to do that to his back!). It will be checked by my rep when he is in a state to consider ridden work - I'm not stupid, I've had the reps out various times before and they're fab, it will be done when possible. 

Vet will be called, but after recent luck with horses I'm about ready to sit in a corner and cry.
		
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Guys, I'm going to quote back to his post. Can we ignore the saddle for the time being, please? 



annabel2009 said:



			I would get the vet out and then depending on the outcome seriously think about returning him to his previous owner.. this horse sadly could end up costing you an awful lot of money.  Really hope you get him sorted though as he sounds a lovely chap. Keep us updated!
		
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It's a serious thought going through my mind at the moment... heart vs. head battle, however. As he's new insurance wouldn't be valid just yet, so I'm footing every cost. Previous owner has requested a second opinion from an Osteo, not sure whether that's worth pursuing as I don't think she believes the physio's findings. Physio came highly recommended to me.


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## YasandCrystal (6 August 2014)

Could you kill 2 birds with one stone and use a holistic vet? I don't know where you are but I used Donna Blinman at Higham near Newmarket who is both a qualified vet and osteopath. At least you will get a definitive answer as to what you are dealing with.
I agree the saddle is not the cause in this case, but the horse is clearly sore and one can only suspect something happened at the breakers, else they would come clean about the behaviour because as sure as eggs are eggs the horse will have displayed this there too.
I hope you can resolve this - cure the pain and you will have a grateful trusting horse again.


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## hippocobamus (6 August 2014)

Sorry to hear that you're having some issues. It certainly sounds as though he's reacting to something.

I am also a SMART Native saddle owner and can't say enough good words about it; it has transformed my hippocob and taken the stress out of horse owning for me. I quite agree that any saddle, treed or treeless, can cause problems if it's not fitted properly, and would encourage you to have your agent out to check everything is right for this horse, but that's the beauty of the SMART saddles, you can change the fit of the saddle with the horse as necessary. I doubt that this saddle can be the route cause of such an explosive reaction though.

Best of luck with whatever route you go.


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## Baileybones (6 August 2014)

I've PM' d you


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## ester (6 August 2014)

If he is on a pain score of 7/10 and 8/10 for his back/loins I think he needs to see the vet asap. 

I think it is your choice based on how much you like him whether you want to do this at all or would prefer just to send him back to the owners.


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## abb123 (6 August 2014)

OP - I would get saddle checked just so that you can tick the box for having checked it. If it is pinching occasionally then it may very well explain the odd explosions. This would make perfect sense with the behaviour you have described. As others have said, just because it is treeless doesn't mean that it can't pinch. 

I understand that you strongly believe that it isn't the saddle. But it wouldn't cost that much to just get it checked and then you can move on confident that it isn't an issue - and you can then put up a smug told you so post when the saddler says it is fine ;-) It is just one of those things, work your way methodically through the usual suspects of saddle, teeth and feet/shoes before thinking about anything else.

You have a pain score of 7/10 and 8/10 for the back and loin area so I would want a vet to check horse over too.

If saddle/vet comes back ok then I think it would be a case of the horse having had a bad start. In which case you need to decide to send him back or start him again yourself. Personally, I think you need to decide that now before you spend money on vet/saddler (which I think is a must before you re-start). How much do you want to spend on him if you then decide to send him back?


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## Beatbox (6 August 2014)

Completely agree with Red-1. The Solution Saddles Advisors are very knowledgeable. I have the new SMART Sport VT which has a wider gullet and a bigger weight bearing panel which my horses are very happy in.

That sort of reaction has to be a pain response and unless you want to take on a welfare project and have plenty of disposable income, you should send the horse back.





Red-1 said:



			I agree with calling the vet if that is the pain level of your horse.

I did not know that you are using Prolite Pads with your Solution. They are not ideal, the gullet on the Prolite is too small for these closer fitting saddles. The Prolite padding is wedged into the saddle gullet. I would talk to Ann Bondi, owner of Solution Saddles, who would be able to help you with their under saddle shims and pads. I would call her out in any case, it really is not that simple to fit a Soultion Smart. They recommend you have Ann or one of their approved fitters to do the initial fitting. They invest a lot of time and money in training their saddle fitters.

If you think about it even numnahs that are pulled down onto the withers can cause pain and soreness. 

As I said before, the Smart has a lot more firm a feel in the gullet, which is great for some horses, but mine preferred the wider gullet or no gullet of the older Solutions. I also padded up until there was a one finger gap, but with the pads supplied by Ann Bondi, not a Prolite. 

I would also recommend you see Ann as she is passionate about helping horses, and will do her utmost to help. They sometimes have saddle testing days where the horse is pressure mapped, it may be worth doing that, and if your horse is showing so much pain reaction after use of a Solution, I am sure she would like to get to the root of the problem (if that does not turn out simply to be the Prolite pad, or that the saddle was never fitted to the horse). 

If you have not had it fitted by a Solution fitter, the fitter would be able to firstly adjust the fit for now and then also advise on how you may be able to adjust as your horse develops. They will also help you to identify when you need a visit by the fitter again, as horses often change shape when being ridden in a Solution.

I have had great success in a couple of hard to fit horses with Solution saddles (in fact I am one of the satisfied customers on their website - it stopped a horse we believed to be starting with navic from having any symptoms - he was transformed), but without a proper fitting you are not giving the saddle a chance.
		
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## Breez (6 August 2014)

Yas - a good idea, though I'm not sure of any holistic vets that cover this area? I'm Midlands based. I'd be surprised if he didn't show any of this behaviour at the breaker's, however getting her to admit such a thing may be another story. I know it was claimed that he took a lot of leg and wasn't particularly forward (odd for a fairly sharp 4yo PBA?), but it was also claimed that he didn't misbehave.

I agree that he definitely needs vet treatment, the question really is who should be administering it. Perhaps Osteo to confirm findings, then blunt discussion with previous owner? His hind end does show a noticeable weakness, and physio's wording was "chronic injury" being the most likely cause. Possibly all linked to the back pain, but at the same time she said that violent bronking can also cause such back tension. 6 of one... half a dozen of the other... which caused which we just don't know.

My head is saying he needs to go back. My heart is still arguing the case. I don't have the funds or facilities for a welfare case / real problem horse that may not come right. Bah.


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## asommerville (6 August 2014)

Just a wee note in the - not going forward even though he's a sharp horse.  My boys a PBA sharp as hell when it suits him but lazy too - he used to be so busy looking for something to spook at that he woukent go off your leg at all!!


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## Red-1 (6 August 2014)

I think the thing that makes me question if it were a breaking issue is how the horse was "golden" when first restarted, with banging and flapping and leaning on the saddle. Without going back, it has been fine when leaning lightly but wappy when leaned heavily. Some days fine sat on and some not. This makes me think of a pinching saddle.

OP, I can understand your defence of the Solution, they are something that I have had to defend too in the past when people have not understood. However, a lot of the people on here are USERS and supporters of the Solution. You say that you have had used it successfully on other horses in the past, and have used fitters in the past, but as you are using a Prolite with this horse I suspect you have not used a fitter with this horse.

The Solution can have a tighter gullet as, as you say, there are no rigid parts to dig in. With the wrong under pad though they can still nip. One nip would be enough to send a newly backed horse into a surprise bucking antic, and once a baby has dumped a rider this alone can cause the horse to lose confidence.

TBH, if I were the person who had broken this horse I would be disappointed if the horse were initially "golden" and then when there were issues (with a different saddle) that the saddle were not checked. I guess you will never know the story with this horse, but I agree with abb123, it is one thing to tick off the checklist, and you can be all smug when we are all wrong. 

I think people on this thread are all trying to help. You did ask for opinions please?


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## Breez (6 August 2014)

I did, Red. But please actually read the initial post. He wasn't golden to begin with. He's been good on groundwork, however he has had rather large meltdowns on other occasions whereby no tack or riding was involved at all. First sit on, he exploded. 5 sit-ons later, he exploded again. 

I repeat, saddle will be checked in due course. Saddle is not going near him for a long time by the look of things, and with the amount of physio / vet bills that look like they're about to stack up, saddle will need to take a back seat until we're in a position to consider actually getting on him. For your own piece of mind, my Solution will be sat gathering dust. Nowhere near my horses back. I did ask for opinions and I do appreciate them, however I think there are bigger issues here than the saddle. His back has an 8/10 on painscale BEHIND the saddle, for reference.

Can I stop explaining myself now, please?


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## BBP (6 August 2014)

I don't have a solution for you, only to say that mine was explosive during and well after the backing process. Sheer panic triggering massive rodeos. Was he badly backed? Possibly, I did it myself and I certainly wasn't perfect. Was he is pain? It was never picked up by me, the vet, the Physio or the saddler. Having said that, 5 years on and having his back thermal imaged and he has a real hot spot in his thoracic spine. I switched physios and she also picked this up. He wasn't reactive but was extremely tight and 'blocked' in his back and hind end across his thoraco-lumbar region. He has a very 'look for danger' natural posture which encourages his back muscles to contract rather than relax. I don't know how long this hot spot has been there, whether it caused him pain before and then over time he realised exploding didn't help and came to tolerate it. I really don't know. What I do know is that he has cost me a great deal, but in time, not really in money. I have put a huge amount of time into learning about him, his triggers, how he works and feels and reacts, what's a mental reaction and what is physical.

If I had to do it again I would thermal image him all over (never really thought of it before but it really helped me to see the problem areas where I wasn't experienced enough to feel them) but I'm not sure what I would have changed other than that. He is a horse with a complex mind, he still panics at the most bizarre things and is fine with other crazy stuff. I do know that for me, having hot to know him, I would never give up trying to learn what makes him tick. He is such a lovely, genuine horse that he deserves me doing everything I can to understand him. I have never regretted it. Good luck with whatever you do with him.


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## LizzieRC1313 (6 August 2014)

Is he to be your only horse to ride & enjoy? Cause if he is, I'd really try to let your head rule over your heart. I know a few people on my yard that have taken on difficult horses as their main riding horse and have spent thousands trying to get them fixed with no joy. I also have a friend who had a 4yo who went to Newmarket & turned out had a number of issues, he'd never be 100% so she made the decision to walk away. She absolutely loved him too, she just didn't want to start off with a crock at 4. If riding is your hobby & you have only owned him a few weeks then I'd think long and hard about whether potentially £1000s of vet work on a 4yr old is worth it. If he's good to handle is he big enough for the blood bank if seller wouldn't take him back? To me, the lack of ridden photos sounds suspicious.


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## Breez (6 August 2014)

KatPT said:



			he still panics at the most bizarre things and is fine with other crazy stuff.
		
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It's interesting that you say that, Kat. This boy is fine with pretty scary type stuff (big rolls of plastic, flappy things, etc), but will lose his head at the stupidest of things. The last one was an elderly horse being led, slowly, towards him. He knows said horse, and said horse is the most placid guy you could ever meet. No sudden movements anywhere, but he spooked that violently that he ended up on his face, on the floor (I was wiping dust off both his face and his knees when he got back up).



LizzieRC1313 said:



			Is he to be your only horse to ride & enjoy? Cause if he is, I'd really try to let your head rule over your heart.
		
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Yes, he's my only horse. There isn't an option to have a second, unfortunately. You're probably right - I know he needs to go back, but it's such a hard decision to finalise. I'm pretty sure seller would take him back.


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## hihosilver (6 August 2014)

I would get his back x-rayed for kissing spine before doing any more with him. If clear you need to go right back to basics and he will regain his confidence. He sounds like he is either in pain or has had a fright. Good luck x


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## Red-1 (6 August 2014)

Hi,  I am sorry I seem to have missed something....

This was the first post 



Breez said:



			Please bear with me, as this may be long - if you're short of time just read the final paragraph  Any replies appreciated.

I've recently brought home a 4yo gelding (nearly 4 weeks ago). He's a very sweet chap, very friendly, sociable, loves both people and horses. He was sent to a professional breaker in February by his previous owner, and was fully broken to a point of walk, trot and canter on both reins. He's also been hacked down quiet lanes on his own, but hasn't been worked since returning from the breaker's (May this year).

We gave him a couple of weeks to settle, then started groundwork with him. We established that he was fine with tack, he was clued up in walk and trot on the lunge, and he was fine when long reined around the school. Stirrups were swung, saddles were banged, plenty of desensitising stuff done and he was golden. He was leant over (full body weight), and still no issues. Great. 

So, Friday before last (18th) we decided to take it to the next step and sit a rider on him (myself). My weight had barely touched the saddle when he freaked, took off, and full rodeo-style bronked the length of an olympic sized school. I attempted to sit it, and ended up hitting the deck at the top end, flat on my back. After regaining the use of my lungs(!), I got on again, very slowly, like you would first backing. He was unsure, but didn't lose it. We left it there.
.
		
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Breez said:



			I did, Red. But please actually read the initial post. He wasn't golden to begin with. He's been good on groundwork, however he has had rather large meltdowns on other occasions whereby no tack or riding was involved at all. First sit on, he exploded. 5 sit-ons later, he exploded again.
		
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From your first post I read that he was "golden" until mounted, and at that time he "bronked" and threw you, after which he has been nervous and unreliable. I am sorry if I have missed something. I read that as he cold have been nipped at first mounting, and had now been scared and unnerved.

Of course do not have to keep "explaining yourself". When you ask for opinions other people from outside are impartial and can possible help you see the whole experience from a non emotional perspective, and that is what I thought you wanted an opinion on.

I am happy for you that so many people have been so helpful, and I wish you every luck with your new horse. I hope he makes the horse you hoped you had bought.


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## Beatbox (6 August 2014)

LOL! Sorry - but that's forums for you!
I understand your frustrations, but Red-1 is right - people are just trying to help - and it's now a long thread, so chances are that no-one is reading and understanding every word - but of course, you are living every moment of the hell....

Most back pain is secondary to a primary clinical issue - usually hindlimb lameness. If it's bilateral, chances are that no-one has picked up on it as it can be very difficult to see. I have been this route before with horses - and it's never good.
Still think you should find a horse without all the problems.


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## Breez (6 August 2014)

You're right, now a long thread, and I'm a rather bad combination of upset, confused and frustrated at the moment. I did mention ground explosions somewhere along the line, I thought it was the first post. Maybe it was a few in, I'm sorry. We've had meltdowns both in-hand and when tied on the yard, but the worst have been under saddle (the bronking fits). He's been lazy and slightly nappy at the gate from the word go, physio observed stilted gait behind and unwillingness to go forward. His back is sore, but the worst affected area is lumbar, hip flexors, and gluteals (gluteals specified as weak).

The impartial opinions are appreciated, as it helps you see where you really stand. The more I look at it on paper, the more the sending back option is appealing


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## wench (6 August 2014)

Have you got the vet booked yet? Thermal imaging can give you a good idea of where to start looking for the problem


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## Breez (12 August 2014)

Update:-

Osteo's findings: his back is in spasm, he's very, very sore on one vertebra that sits just under the back of the saddle, and it's no wonder he's exploding the way he is. Osteo claims next step is x-rays and scanning, looking at either a case of kissing spines or damaged ligaments within the spine, he thinks most likely a possibility if he turned himself inside and out when broken, or perhaps if they pulled him over backwards with a saddle on. Vet findings needed to distinguish, but realistically 3mths field rest and start him again from scratch from there if suitable. Claims it's not a recent injury, very inflamed. Previous owner reckons he was fine when leaving her, perfectly behaved with the breaker then was turned away while back with her.

My head's reeling. Gutted.


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## Amymay (12 August 2014)

Good luck with the vet. Keep us posted.


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## Fun Times (12 August 2014)

OP I totally understand how upset and worried you must be feeling. I would be really struggling with this too. Honestly, if the previous owner is still willing to take this horse back I would be biting their hand off and making arrangements to move him asap. Otherwise I fear you may be lumbered with quite a big problem.


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## Breez (13 August 2014)

Previous owner won't take him back. Go figure.


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## ester (13 August 2014)

Breez said:



			Bonkers2 - Bought as fully broken (I asked at time of purchase if they meant backed, I was told "No, fully broken"). He was sold from field due to owner's (genuine) ill health - really lovely people who want him returned to them should he not be right, however I'm curious as to others' opinions. Failed breaking, pain response, something else?
		
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Not so lovely and caring for his future then, poor pony. I don't know if there is anything you can do if there is no way of proving they had prior knowledge of a problem though/trainer either didn't tell them or has agreed to keep something quiet? I think you need to speak to the BHS legal helpline/get some advice asap, and decide how much you want to spend on this pony - I don't know whether if you can prove kissing spines for example you would have more of a legal leg to stand on? Could easily not be that though ......


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## Fun Times (13 August 2014)

Breez said:



			Previous owner won't take him back. Go figure.
		
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Hmmm, not a total surprise then. Have you got the vet booked? Don't give up all hope just yet, there is still a chance that this is not catastrophic.  Whilst I am sure you are dreading what they may reveal, you do now need the answers that only xrays can provide.  I will hope for the best for you.


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## Breez (13 August 2014)

ester said:



			Not so lovely and caring for his future then, poor pony. I don't know if there is anything you can do if there is no way of proving they had prior knowledge of a problem though/trainer either didn't tell them or has agreed to keep something quiet? I think you need to speak to the BHS legal helpline/get some advice asap, and decide how much you want to spend on this pony - I don't know whether if you can prove kissing spines for example you would have more of a legal leg to stand on? Could easily not be that though ......
		
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Nope... I feel dreadful for him. Goes to show you can't trust what people say. Osteo is sure it's not recent because of the inflammation and thickening of tissue around that vertebra, but previous owner is still arguing that he was 100% when he left her. I don't know where legalities stand, but you may have a point... though we seem to be spiralling into a very expensive game here. I'm sure the breaker knows, but getting her to admit to that is a whole other kettle of fish. I just don't know what's best for him and me at the moment... funds are limited.  



Fun Times said:



			Hmmm, not a total surprise then. Have you got the vet booked? Don't give up all hope just yet, there is still a chance that this is not catastrophic.  Whilst I am sure you are dreading what they may reveal, you do now need the answers that only xrays can provide.  I will hope for the best for you.
		
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Vet isn't booked just yet, as I wanted to discuss option of sending him back first. Osteo was really very good, and I'm inclined to believe what he's told me. I don't suppose you have any idea of the cost of back x-rays, nowadays?


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## Fun Times (13 August 2014)

Sorry I can't help with price of xrays but I am sure someone will be able to. Regarding the breaker, as a last ditch attempt could you try phoning and saying that this horse's future is seriously in doubt and in order for you to be able to make an informed decision you need as much info as she can give. I know it could be any number of things and I don't know the situation  at all but I have an odd inkling this horse has gone over backwards with them. Not sure whether finding out what happened will get you much further but the more info you are armed with the better in my view.


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## Voxhorse (13 August 2014)

Would explain the shady dodging your questions! poor horse. Don't let them get away with it! and asking you to get a second opinion is quite a cheek. 

Good luck with everything.

xx


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## baymareb (14 August 2014)

This thread is a heartbreak to read. I'm so sorry. I have no suggestions to add but just wanted to say I feel for you and for the horse who sounds like a very nice boy who couldn't help his behavior because he was in pain.

Good luck with it all. What a rotten course of events.


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## cptrayes (14 August 2014)

Breez said:



			Vet isn't booked just yet, as I wanted to discuss option of sending him back first. Osteo was really very good, and I'm inclined to believe what he's told me. I don't suppose you have any idea of the cost of back x-rays, nowadays?
		
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In Cheshire is around £150 for the set up and the first one, and £25 a plate after that, and you need four for the  back and wither.


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## Joyous70 (14 August 2014)

Breez

I have nothing really useful to add at this point in the thread, other than to say i have just logged on and seen your updates, i am so very sorry  i can understand you feeling gutted this really isn't the outcome anyone would have wished for.  I just wanted to say whatever you decided be strong in your mind and don't be swayed by others.


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## Breez (14 August 2014)

Thank you, guys. It does explain a lot 

I guess the question is WWYD at this point? I've only just finished paying a 4k vet bill - I'm reluctant to get too far in financially for a "we might fix it, we might not". What's the best option, here?


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## Amymay (14 August 2014)

The best option is to get the vet to investigate, and go from there.


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## ester (14 August 2014)

The thing is, if you pay for x-rays and it is kissing spine that is going to require more money to fix. If it isn't that is going to require more money for further investigations - or at that point you turn him away for a bit and see if the soft tissue issues resolve. 

Alternatively send the previous owners a solicitors letter stating that unless you can return for a full refund you will take them to court for not as described and see if that encourages them slightly. (hence I think you should get some advice on this legally). 

Or PTS and write off the purchase price. 

I'm not sure what the 'best option' is. I would probably pay for the xrays and then go the legal route.


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## cptrayes (14 August 2014)

Breez said:



			Thank you, guys. It does explain a lot 

I guess the question is WWYD at this point? I've only just finished paying a 4k vet bill - I'm reluctant to get too far in financially for a "we might fix it, we might not". What's the best option, here? 

Click to expand...

I'd pay another couple of hundred for x rays, hoping that they show kissing spines which could not have happened recently, then threaten the sellers with one solicitors letter, then put the horse down and cut my losses. If you can get any evidence that he was not really broken, then I would consider a small claim.

I am so sorry, I think you have been conned with this fellow and he was never properly ridden at all. My vet who did my horse's kissing spines said it shows at three ages, the first being when you first try to ride them, then at seven or eight, then at twelve-ish.

If it is kissing spines,  You might be offered a ligament resection at a cost of under two thousand pounds. I would not recommend you to go down that route. I know of several horses, including my own, which had issues of remembered pain to be got through as part of the rehab. In a horse who has no good memories of being ridden, you could be in for a seriously difficult rehab/rebreaking with no guarantee of a good result at the end.

Let us know what you decide, won't you?


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## be positive (14 August 2014)

cptrayes said:



			I'd pay another couple of hundred for x rays, hoping that they show kissing spines which could not have happened recently, then threaten the sellers with one solicitors letter, then put the horse down and cut my losses. If you can get any evidence that he was not really broken, then I would consider a small claim.

I am so sorry, I think you have been conned with this fellow and he was never properly ridden at all. My vet who did my horse's kissing spines said it shows at three ages, the first being when you first try to ride them, then at seven or eight, then at twelve-ish.
		
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I think this makes sense, it seems strange that the owners sent him away to be backed then turned him away for a short time before selling from grass, if they were needing to move him on they should have either sold him while he was still at the breaking yard or sent him somewhere from there to sell, financially it would have been the most logical way to sell him, they would have had far more interest in something up and going, as well as getting more money, to turn him away seems odd, once you know there are issues it makes perfect sense, but hindsight makes everything so much clearer.


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## JoannaC (14 August 2014)

What a nightmare, I do feel sorry for you.    I would get the xrays because it may not be as bad as you think, having witnessed a similarly bred horse throw himself over backwards it really wouldn't surprise me if he did this at the breakers leaving him with a back injury.   I am always very suspicious of horses that have been "professionally broken" but then the owners turn away and sell from the field, it's just not logical.  I would imagine he scared the s**t out of them and they then used ill health as the excuse for not riding him.


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## Beatbox (14 August 2014)

The Saddle Research Trust have launched a new Referral Scheme to help owners combat saddle related problems. This includes unresolved and undiagnosed poor performance issues. It would be worth your while to check it out as it could help you reach a definitive diagnosis and get the best, independent advice on how to proceed. 

Go to saddleresearchtrust.com


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## SadKen (14 August 2014)

This thread has made me sad.  Really feel for you and your boy OP. 

I'd get the x-rays done and seek legal advice (try the BHS if you're a gold member - it's free then).  If the xrays reveal soft tissue damage only, turn away and hope for improvement whilst pursuing a claim against the sellers for not as described. If KS, I'd still turn away whilst pursuing the claim, but would PTS if not successful. 

If after 3 months he's still with you, see if he's better and restart slowly, probably with a REAL professional. 

If you decided to PTS I think that is valid in this case too, but if you like him (and I think you do) it might be worth a try. 

Makes you wonder why the seller didn't sue the 'professional' for not doing a proper job...

I really hope it works out for you and for him.  Please let us know how you get on.


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## Henry02 (14 August 2014)

If you havent done got the vet to do xrays yet, I would be seriously tempted to get a thermal imaging scan done of him first, as it may not be kissing spines, the pain could be stemming from elsewhere (and get a saddle fit check done too).

Whilst TI is not as "accurate" as xrays etc, it should give you a good idea of where the pain is coming from, and the heat patterns that show up can help to indicate if its a muscle, or different type of problem.

You should be able to get a whole horse done for approx £100.


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## Fun Times (14 August 2014)

My understanding of human xrays is that they show bones but not soft tissue. For soft tissue, I think you need a scan. So if it were me, first port of call would be to speak to the vet and ask whether xrays or a scan would be the best solution and the likely cost. I would probably have whichever the vet recommended done (assuming not ridiculous money) as I don't think I personally would feel able to take a decision to pts without knowing the extent of the problem a bit more. Then, if the results of the xray/scan show anything that won't be curable with a bit of rest and some physio, I would probably pts. I would also try to get more answers out of the breaker and the previous owner - not necessarily for the purposes of bringing a claim but because I think this little horse deserves them to be honest for his sake, so that you can take a fully informed view.


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## cptrayes (14 August 2014)

Let's look at this logically. The horse has soft tissue injury which has been found by a body worker. If any diagnostics are used which do not identify bone problems, then nobody has learned anything new. If x rays are done and they are clear, then the horse has probably treatable soft tissue injury. If they are not clear, then it will be much more obvious whether it will be worth treating the soft tissue injury which the horse has sustained.

It's a no brainer for me that x rays of the back should be the next step with this horse. Or is my logic chip malfunctioning?


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## Fun Times (14 August 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Let's look at this logically. The horse has soft tissue injury which has been found by a body worker. If any diagnostics are used which do not identify bone problems, then nobody has learned anything new. If x rays are done and they are clear, then the horse has probably treatable soft tissue injury. If they are not clear, then it will be much more obvious whether it will be worth treating the soft tissue injury which the horse has sustained.

It's a no brainer for me that x rays of the back should be the next step with this horse. Or is my logic chip malfunctioning?
		
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I guess this is in response to my post about asking the vet whether a scan or xrays are the best option. My logic for this is that I have had both done on my own back (not my horse). The xrays showed up only bones. The scan showed up bones, discs, muscles - pretty much everything that is beneath my skin basically. The xray was useless as my problem was a disc prolapse, disc degeneration and severe muscle probs, both of which the scan showed clearly but xray would not. So my point was that if the same principle applies to the technology of x-raying or scanning a horse (and I can't see why it wouldn't), then I would recommend Breez to speak to the vet about the best option. If I am right, then a scan could well be better value for money than an x-ray. So for me, it would be equally as much of a no-brainer to ask the vet whether I was right!


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## Henry02 (14 August 2014)

What sort of "scan" would a horse have to show all of that lot?


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## Fun Times (14 August 2014)

Henry02 said:



			What sort of "scan" would a horse have to show all of that lot?
		
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As I said in both my posts, I was coming at it from the perspective of how the technology works with humans, hence I suggested OP ask her vet for the best option including likely costs. I have no idea whether the technology exists to just scan the relevant part of this horses back or the associated cost but I am confident  her vet will.


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## Henry02 (14 August 2014)

I'm guessing you mean you had an MRI/CT scan? Only bits of horses can be done using this technology, and it costs thousands. 

If it was me, I'd contact a thermal imager, and see if they could fit me in within the next week, if not I'd probably get the horse booked in to the vets for X-rays of it's back, and probably check for ulcers at the same time, and quite possibly if it's a mare to get the ovaries scanned. After that I probably wouldn't be doing an awful lot more if nothing was found on those three tests


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## cptrayes (14 August 2014)

Fun Times said:



			As I said in both my posts, I was coming at it from the perspective of how the technology works with humans, hence I suggested OP ask her vet for the best option including likely costs. I have no idea whether the technology exists to just scan the relevant part of this horses back or the associated cost but I am confident  her vet will.
		
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How I wish we could all be so confident. But when revenues of over a thousand pounds  for one diagnostic tool are up against two hundred for another, I'm less than confident that all vets would go for x rays. But in the OPs position, I can see no other option. There's a limit to how much more money she can throw at this  horse, and x rays, I think, are the most likely to give her an answer for least cost.


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## ladyt25 (14 August 2014)

Could you have a scintigraphy done? This is not as expensive as an MRi and is good for areas where sometimes x-rays cannot penetrate deep enough. This, I believe would highlight bony issues as well as possibly other causes of a problem? 
I sort of know your pain as I commented earlier having a youngster who has exploded under saddle. I have had a saddle made for him now and am sending him away for re-backing (i initially just did it myself) so time will tell if I am dealing with a physical or mental issue with him.


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## Breez (14 August 2014)

Thanks for the responses (and sympathies), guys. It's good to hear differing opinions. I've calmed down a little from yesterday, but I'm still unsure what to do. I know that x-rays are the logical step forward but I can see the bills snowballing very quickly, all for a horse who has only been here a number of weeks. He's a fab guy, but it's not like I'm on a yard where he can be thrown out for the winter to sort himself out and I doubt I have the experience to fully re-start him if/when the time comes. If I get a professional involved, it means that the best possible outcome will still cost thousands.

He's not in pain in the field, he trots up sound. It's only when weight / pressure is applied over that vertebra that he hurts. I will speak to the vet about options and costs, but what's the likelihood of an insurance company paying out at all when there is enough thickened tissue to tell them that I bought him with the condition? They've thrown the "pre-existing, horse came with the condition whether you were aware of it or not" card at me before.

He's a gelding, so no ovaries or such to scan. He shows no symptoms of ulcers, he eats well, holds weight well, he's never grumpy, only the back pain which looks to stem from that one point on the spine.

I think my logic chip fell flat on it's face and went on strike around 5pages back. Another horsey nightmare. I swear I attract them 

ETA: re: scintigraphy (I never have any idea how to spell that!), I was under the impression you were looking at around the £1500 mark for it to be done? I could be wrong, that's pure hear-say, but it sounds like a rather expensive option.


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## cptrayes (14 August 2014)

The last I knew, a scintigraph was at least as expensive as an MRI  And requires a longer hospital stay too, because the horse is radioactive for days.


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## be positive (14 August 2014)

I thought scintigraphy was most useful when you had no clear idea where the problem was or if it was felt there were several areas of concern and wanted to find the primary issue, it is not a complete diagnostic in that it only points to the areas that will then require xrays or scans to give a full diagnosis, you know where he is hurting so it makes sense to go in and xray, if nothing shows you may have to think again but it is far less expensive than anything else available and may well give a conclusive answer.


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## Henry02 (14 August 2014)

Well as I've said before, I'd go for the thermal imaging scan first, just to see if it throws up problems elsewhere, ie lameness in a leg. 

Ulcers can also cause chronic back pain as well, I know someone that had a horse with a long standing case of ulcers, and the horse needed regular physio visits for a while to get it sorted.


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## Fun Times (14 August 2014)

cptrayes said:



			How I wish we could all be so confident. But when revenues of over a thousand pounds  for one diagnostic tool are up against two hundred for another, I'm less than confident that all vets would go for x rays. But in the OPs position, I can see no other option. There's a limit to how much more money she can throw at this  horse, and x rays, I think, are the most likely to give her an answer for least cost.
		
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What an odd response. My post stated I would have confidence that the vet knows what diagnositic tools are available and the likely cost. I would have thought that to be fairly basic advice from any vet. Whether or not a person trusts their vet to steer them in the right direction is an entirely different thread and doesn't relate to my comment. Incidentally I am not disagreeing with your view of getting xrays, simply posted that it would be worth asking vet about all viable diagnostic options and cost. Presumably not a too objectionable comment?


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## Leo Walker (14 August 2014)

My vets are pretty good at asking "is he insured" and then going from there. They are also very, very good at writing up case notes with insurance claims in mind. My sisters mare had kissing spines, she was treated with a course of injections. I think the xrays and treatment were in the mid hundreds, not thousands. 

What a nightmare for you. I'm really sorry, and I hope you find a simple and low cost resolution


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## cptrayes (14 August 2014)

Fun Times said:



			What an odd response. My post stated I would have confidence that the vet knows what diagnositic tools are available and the likely cost. I would have thought that to be fairly basic advice from any vet. Whether or not a person trusts their vet to steer them in the right direction is an entirely different thread and doesn't relate to my comment. Incidentally I am not disagreeing with your view of getting xrays, simply posted that it would be worth asking vet about all viable diagnostic options and cost. Presumably not a too objectionable comment?
		
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I think you gave taken my response too personally? Objectionable simply does not come into it. Logically, knowing the options and the costs, I see x rays as the obvious  next step, that's all.


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## ladyt25 (14 August 2014)

I guess the best thing to do, which is what you are probably going to do anyway,  is ask your vet what they think the best diagnostic tool is. The thing is, having worked in equine insurance for a few years I've seen many claims where they x-ray, don't get a clear diagnosis and then go down the route of MRi or scintigraphy anyway so the costs just add up.
If you have insurance and the problems started 14 days after the inception of your policy you should be covered and they can't say it was pre-existing really as it's something you have just discovered. Certainly if you have a pre-purchase vet cert then that would help back that up. 
You know,  you've only had him a few weeks. Best case scenario is he could just be very, very sore, either muscle and/or other soft tissue wise and it will take time for injuries /damage to heal and for him to stop having spasms or indeed just remembering and associating certain things with pain. Oh, have you checked /changed girth type as well?  We think mine may be very sensitive around his girth area and that is part of his problem.


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## ester (14 August 2014)

I'm in agreement with cpt - no way I would be doing anything other than xraying (if I decided to do that - may depend on what you paid for him) Fun Times all other diagnostic tools available are very expensive making them pretty unviable for the OP and generally not the place to start for most people. If no kissing spines presume soft tissue and rest/treat with aid of physio/osteo if you like him enough to think it worth it - as rest isn't always 'free'. If he has KS I think it all depends on the severity as to whether steroid injections might help (ie not too expensive) or if he isn't worth persisting with.


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## Clodagh (14 August 2014)

I would turn him away for the whole winter and then try again in the spring, using the money you have saved on x rays to pay for a decent pro.
Sometimes I think we are desperate to fix things by throwing money at them (not aimed at you, OP) and sometimes just a few months rest can do so much.


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## Henry02 (14 August 2014)

X-rays should cost max of £300... So about two weeks of a pros time, not to mention all the livery to pay over winter, whilst the horse is quite possibly in a reasonable amount of pain!


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## be positive (14 August 2014)

Henry02 said:



			X-rays should cost max of £300... So about two weeks of a pros time, not to mention all the livery to pay over winter, whilst the horse is quite possibly in a reasonable amount of pain!
		
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If it is ligament or muscular pain then it may get worse rather than better by being turned away untreated, it is certainly no guarantee, for the cost  xrays  must be worth doing, if inconclusive then possibly do some physio then rest until next spring.


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## Asha (14 August 2014)

OP,  I would get him xrayed, and his saddle checked by a master saddler.

My home bred 5 yo has had problems with his back, he is quite sensitive and will tell you when he's not 100%. Putting back up, flinching for rug, and a couple of times has bronked. He's a very careful jumper, so when he has more than one pole I know he's not right.

He had a brand new saddle fitted, teeth done and back done. But we would still have issues. We did. Full lameness check with X-rays. Completely sound, and no issues with kissing spines. Vet agreed with osteo, in that he had an usual amount of movement in his back end, and when he jumps really flicks his back end, resulting in him regularly pulling  muscles.

So we have started using a Pessoa, to improve his strength, plus we got an experienced master saddler out as his jockey was complaining her back ached in his saddle.  It only turns out that the saddle is completely wrong for him, too long not wide enough, I could go on.

We've changed saddles, and now no issues with his back as yet.

All I'm saying is, it's so easy to think the worst, I know I did.   The X-rays of his back cost me £150, and a saddle check £40. Well worth it as he's now a happy chilled out chappie.

Good luck x


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## Breez (15 August 2014)

Running on very little sleep at the moment, I'll reply properly later on.



ester said:



			I'm in agreement with cpt - no way I would be doing anything other than xraying (if I decided to do that - may depend on what you paid for him)
		
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1200. Would that sway your decision?



ladyt25 said:



			Oh, have you checked /changed girth type as well?  We think mine may be very sensitive around his girth area and that is part of his problem.
		
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Yep, we've faffed with girths. He can be a bit sensitive in standard synthetics ones, so he's in a padded English leather girth nowadays. As stated, he's quite happy to be tacked up, he's not fussed about the girth being tightened, and he'll lunge well when wearing tack, providing there's no rider on board.

Livery costs will amount to around 1500 over winter where we are, obviously plus whichever diagnostics / treatment we go ahead with. I don't have anywhere that I can just "throw him in a field" for a few months. I don't know. The thought of paying out thousands (scans, x-rays, various treatments, professional restarting, etc) on a horse that I'm unsure will come right in the end (when he was sold to me that way!) just makes me want to sit in a corner and cry. Over the past 2 years, I've lost my horse of a lifetime to colic, aged 6, and persevered with a mis-sold project to find out it was all too much in the end. Now this. 

I'm probably making a mountain out of a molehill, but I'm feeling rather down about it all at the moment.


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## mystiandsunny (15 August 2014)

The only caution I'd give is that you've been told that turning him away for 3 months then trying again is a good idea.  If this is an injury sustained at the breaker's, then he's been turned away already since the injury and it didn't fix anything.  

Personally, I would x-ray (I'd want to know that the problem was just soft-tissue and nothing more).  I'd also try a period of box rest and see if the inflammation reduced.


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## Breez (15 August 2014)

mystiandsunny said:



			The only caution I'd give is that you've been told that turning him away for 3 months then trying again is a good idea.  If this is an injury sustained at the breaker's, then he's been turned away already since the injury and it didn't fix anything.  

Personally, I would x-ray (I'd want to know that the problem was just soft-tissue and nothing more).  I'd also try a period of box rest and see if the inflammation reduced.
		
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As far as I'm aware, he returned from the breaker's early May. We're now in mid August, so 3 and a half months on. Point taken - a very good one at that.


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## YasandCrystal (15 August 2014)

Breez said:



			Yas - a good idea, though I'm not sure of any holistic vets that cover this area? I'm Midlands based. I'd be surprised if he didn't show any of this behaviour at the breaker's, however getting her to admit such a thing may be another story. I know it was claimed that he took a lot of leg and wasn't particularly forward (odd for a fairly sharp 4yo PBA?), but it was also claimed that he didn't misbehave.

I agree that he definitely needs vet treatment, the question really is who should be administering it. Perhaps Osteo to confirm findings, then blunt discussion with previous owner? His hind end does show a noticeable weakness, and physio's wording was "chronic injury" being the most likely cause. Possibly all linked to the back pain, but at the same time she said that violent bronking can also cause such back tension. 6 of one... half a dozen of the other... which caused which we just don't know.

My head is saying he needs to go back. My heart is still arguing the case. I don't have the funds or facilities for a welfare case / real problem horse that may not come right. Bah. 

Click to expand...

My WB was diagnosed at Newmarket with chronic sacro iliac dysfunction. That diagnosis FYI cost nigh on £4,000. I then had him treated by Donna Blinman at Higham. I had 3 alternative therapies prior to Newmarket - an iridology analysis of his eyes, a communication and a shiatsu session. All 3 totalled less than £100 they all said that he had an upper r/h hind injury and pain in left shoulder. They did not say the injury was chronic though and I needed the Newmarket diagnosis to get LOU. He is sound now but nearly 3 years on and after a lot of rehab and heartbreak.
So my point is if you believe this is a chronic injury think carefully about keeping him. I have 4 horses so my WB wasn't my only ridden horse. Had he been and had I had to use livery I think the situation would have proved too expensive and stressful.


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## Clodagh (15 August 2014)

mystiandsunny said:



			The only caution I'd give is that you've been told that turning him away for 3 months then trying again is a good idea.  If this is an injury sustained at the breaker's, then he's been turned away already since the injury and it didn't fix anything.  
.
		
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That is very true, and a good point.
There scomes a point when you, OP, have to decide how much money you want to throw at him and go the dark option once that is exceeded. I would, and have done that in the past.


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## cptrayes (15 August 2014)

This is probably going to get me a barrage of criticism, but if you paid 1200 for the horse I would send one letter from a solicitor to the sellers, then have him shot if they will not take him back.  To get him right, whatever is wrong with him, he's going to cost you that again many times over. And there is no guarantee he will come right. And you have done your fair share of paying for sick and bad horses. You need to put yourself first with this one. 

The price itself is deeply suspicious. £1200 for a horse they had paid to have professionally broken?


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## tinap (15 August 2014)

The cost of xrays surprised me when we had ours done - 2 done, at home on a portable xray machine of a leg came to just over £80. Personally I'd speak to the vet, say you want to keep it as cheap as possible as even though he's insured, you may not decide it is worth putting him through a lot of treatment if it's something serious. See if anything is obvious from xrays & then decide where to go from there. 

I know which route I would go down if it was something that was very serious & potentially expensive to only possibly rectify, but there is also a chance it may not be as bad as you think. I don't think I could ever send him back as then you don't know what the outcome for him would be. Wishing you all the luck with him & sending hugs for a horrible situation xx


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## ester (15 August 2014)

cptrayes said:



			This is probably going to get me a barrage of criticism, but if you paid 1200 for the horse I would send one letter from a solicitor to the sellers, then have him shot if they will not take him back.  To get him right, whatever is wrong with him, he's going to cost you that again many times over. And there is no guarantee he will come right. And you have done your fair share of paying for sick and bad horses. You need to put yourself first with this one. 

The price itself is deeply suspicious. £1200 for a horse they had paid to have professionally broken?
		
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No, I think that I would agree that is very much the pragmatic thing to do. Good point by those that say he has already had time off presuming an accident at the breakers.


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## Amymay (15 August 2014)

cptrayes said:



			The price itself is deeply suspicious. £1200 for a horse they had paid to have professionally broken?
		
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My thoughts too. I thought we were talking about something that was at the least around £4k, if not higher.

I'd still get the horse x-rayed - I think it's owed that. After that, well I don't disagree with cptrayes if the outcome looks expensive (or bleak).

Terribly sad.


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## Breez (15 August 2014)

I'm on mobile, so poor replies, sorry.



cptrayes said:



			This is probably going to get me a barrage of criticism, but if you paid 1200 for the horse I would send one letter from a solicitor to the sellers, then have him shot if they will not take him back.  To get him right, whatever is wrong with him, he's going to cost you that again many times over. And there is no guarantee he will come right. And you have done your fair share of paying for sick and bad horses. You need to put yourself first with this one. 

The price itself is deeply suspicious. £1200 for a horse they had paid to have professionally broken?
		
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They claim they will take him back, but no refund. Re: the price, it was a "good home more important than price", and was reflecting the current market. They've recently come forward with the fact that the breaking itself cost £800, for 8wks. Great value, right?


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## honetpot (15 August 2014)

Send him back then and let them have the worry. You may lose £1200 but you will not be paying out anymore or have the decision what to do with him if he gets no better. 
 I have two ready for breaking but have no one to ride them out after breaking so I have put it on hold. Ones I have sold in the past you have been able to take down the road and canter on a hack, that is what I would call basic breaking. If I was the breeder I would be so upset I would want it back and probably give the money back as well, most small breeders do it for love and want to see their animals do well and the price they get is just a by product of their hobby. If any thing I bred or I had sold on was having problems I would want to know and if possible help.
 Just after Christmas I heard that one that we had owned 10 years ago was being sold, if the owner had trouble selling I would have agreed a price and he would have come home. I am not a dealer but any pony I have sold I would happily have back. Fortunately the pony has found a new young rider.


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## ester (15 August 2014)

Breez said:



			I'm on mobile, so poor replies, sorry.



They claim they will take him back, but no refund. Re: the price, it was a "good home more important than price", and was reflecting the current market. They've recently come forward with the fact that the breaking itself cost £800, for 8wks. Great value, right? 

Click to expand...

No, I would rather spend the money on PTS/send him for meat rather than they get a horse back and keep all the money for being crap with the truth, that's not how it works!

So yes, still solicitors letter requesting return for refund.


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## JoannaC (15 August 2014)

I wouldn't send him back either without a refund.  What's to stop them playing the same trick on someone else.


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## superpony (15 August 2014)

Breez said:



			I'm on mobile, so poor replies, sorry.



They claim they will take him back, but no refund. Re: the price, it was a "good home more important than price", and was reflecting the current market. They've recently come forward with the fact that the breaking itself cost £800, for 8wks. Great value, right? 

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There is no way I would give him back as them for no refund. A others have said they will probably just sell him on again. 

Personally I would get the vet out, discuss with them and if need  be have xrays then go from there. Then you have the information to work with and can plan what to do next.


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## cptrayes (15 August 2014)

Breez said:



			I'm on mobile, so poor replies, sorry.



They claim they will take him back, but no refund. Re: the price, it was a "good home more important than price", and was reflecting the current market. They've recently come forward with the fact that the breaking itself cost £800, for 8wks. Great value, right? 

Click to expand...

Exactly, the price suggests that the backing went wrong and they knew it. Incidentally, so might the amount of time he was there. Two months is a long time for a breaking livery.

Even in this market, a decently put together broken four year old should have been at least twice the price.

I would not send him back to them or they will sell him again and break someone else's heart.


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## Breez (15 August 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Exactly, the price suggests that the backing went wrong and they knew it. Incidentally, so might the amount of time he was there. Two months is a long time for a breaking livery.

Even in this market, a decently put together broken four year old should have been at least twice the price.

I would not send him back to them or they will sell him again and break someone else's heart.
		
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In hindsight, yes. It does. They seemed very genuine people who wanted the best for a beautiful horse that they bred, and with how cheap horses are at the moment I didn't think too much of the price. They were more concerned about him going to the right home rather than the money they made. So I thought, anyway.

He will not go back for nothing, as I wouldn't want anyone else being put in the same position. I hate the horsey world at times.


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## Echo Bravo (15 August 2014)

If you send him back, they will just sell him on so making more money. Give him the time and start from basics again.


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## Voxhorse (15 August 2014)

Hi OP, This thread has made me seeth, it's nasty people like this who ruin the horse world reputation (sorry to state the obvious).

Anyway, will take him back but no refund is almost like saying it is somehow your fault, disgusting attitude (emotional blackmail) after all the stress you have suffered not knowing what do do.....I would dig your heels in and say NO!!!! a full refund should you wish to return him, or you take the matter further and be firm!! they may think you are too nice to take it further.

Feel really bad for you & horse, and these people make me sick to my stomach, don't care about horses, only themselves & making cash!!

Good Luck xxx


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## Voxhorse (15 August 2014)

Echo Bravo said:



			If you send him back, they will just sell him on so making more money. Give him the time and start from basics again.
		
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Yep, hopefully OP can do this!


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## Breez (16 August 2014)

Voxhorse said:



			Hi OP, This thread has made me seeth, it's nasty people like this who ruin the horse world reputation (sorry to state the obvious).

Anyway, will take him back but no refund is almost like saying it is somehow your fault, disgusting attitude (emotional blackmail) after all the stress you have suffered not knowing what do do.....I would dig your heels in and say NO!!!! a full refund should you wish to return him, or you take the matter further and be firm!!
		
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Believe me, I feel the same. I think her point is that she thinks it is my fault - professional disagrees, but she's still convinced that he was fine when he left her. Or at least that's what she says.

The bottom line is whether to persevere (hence trying out get a basic idea of costs of these type of issues via here), solicitors letters (which to be honest, I doubt will work with her), rehome him and write off the purchase price, or pts. The last, I don't particularly want to do - he has too much of a lovely demeanor to write him off completely. Still feel slightly stuck between a rock and a hard place.


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## cptrayes (16 August 2014)

Breez how can you rehome him without there being a big risk that he will end up in the wrong place, be ridden in pain and break another person's heart?

Please, please either get his problems diagnosed and sorted yourself, or have him put down.


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## Amymay (16 August 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Breez how can you rehome him without there being a big risk that he will end up in the wrong place, be ridden in pain and break another person's heart?

Please, please either get his problems diagnosed and sorted yourself, or have him put down.
		
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Once again, I completely agree.


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## ladyt25 (16 August 2014)

I think he's very young and you've not had him that long so I personally don't think making decisions like putting to sleep is right at the moment. 
Have the physical checks done, it is highly likely there's nothing wrong. Then at least you know where you stand. 
Give him time, don't try him with a saddle. If you can then enlist the help of someone who works with natural horsemanship techniques and get him working on the ground and build up trust. 
This morning I have just re-tried putting a saddle and girth on mine. Ok doing it all up but he went to panic again when asked to turn. I do not believe my horse is in true physical pain - he was at one stage due to me getting the saddle wrong initially. However, I think he feels something he's not keen on and panics due more to memory or association. 
I am not capable of getting him through it and so he is going to someone I trust to re-start. 
IF I am wrong and she feels it's not just a memory issue then we will then have to deal with it.
Some are very very sensitive 
 They ger a fright, have some pain and then it's a case of making sure you get everything right to get them through that but it is not quick. Mine is now 5 and has had over a year of not being sat on
on. I am hopeful that not too far in the distant future I will have the nice, happy,  confident ridden horse back and one day all this will be nothing more than a memory. 
Like you, I know I have a nice horse that wants to work, wants to please bur something is stopping that happening at the moment. 
I have actually looked into and have spoken to an animal communicator but have not as yet had one to see him. I am still very tempted if it will shed any light!


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## mystiandsunny (16 August 2014)

Just to add also - I have never known a horse to have a completely different temperament under saddle compared to the temperament they display on the ground, UNLESS there is a pain issue involved, or past mental trauma.  Horses don't just decide to be awkward.  

Often, physical issues can be resolved - the issue simply is, can the issues your horse has, be resolved for the money you have available.  If the physical issues you have found heal (e.g. on box rest, with therapy/whatever), you will then have to work through the horse's fear of the pain he is expecting to come, and then with any physical weakness/likelihood of recurrence left behind.    

If you find that they are secondary to a mental trauma, be aware that sort of thing can take years to fix.  It took me two years with the last horse I took on who had a traumatic backing experience (again at the hands of professionals, interestingly enough!).  Two long years, where there were times when I was really worried about my own safety.  In the end I had a wonderful, relaxed and happy horse who I could trust 100%, but it wasn't an easy road to get there!  I did at least know about that horse's issues when I bought her though!


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## ester (16 August 2014)

ladyt25 said:



			I think he's very young and you've not had him that long so I personally don't think making decisions like putting to sleep is right at the moment. 
Have the physical checks done, it is highly likely there's nothing wrong. Then at least you know where you stand. 
Give him time, don't try him with a saddle. If you can then enlist the help of someone who works with natural horsemanship techniques and get him working on the ground and build up trust. 
This morning I have just re-tried putting a saddle and girth on mine. Ok doing it all up but he went to panic again when asked to turn. I do not believe my horse is in true physical pain - he was at one stage due to me getting the saddle wrong initially. However, I think he feels something he's not keen on and panics due more to memory or association. 
I am not capable of getting him through it and so he is going to someone I trust to re-start. 
IF I am wrong and she feels it's not just a memory issue then we will then have to deal with it.
Some are very very sensitive 
 They ger a fright, have some pain and then it's a case of making sure you get everything right to get them through that but it is not quick. Mine is now 5 and has had over a year of not being sat on
on. I am hopeful that not too far in the distant future I will have the nice, happy,  confident ridden horse back and one day all this will be nothing more than a memory. 
Like you, I know I have a nice horse that wants to work, wants to please bur something is stopping that happening at the moment. 
I have actually looked into and have spoken to an animal communicator but have not as yet had one to see him. I am still very tempted if it will shed any light!
		
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The problem is that the physical checks can cost quite a lot of money, and require expensive treatment and you can't assume for example that if he doesn't have kissing spines there isn't something else causing his reaction. I disagree and think it is highly unlikely there is nothing wrong - both a physio and osteo have said as such- and that it would be totally wrong to proceed with working him in anyway without ensuring he is comfortable


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## ladyt25 (16 August 2014)

Sorry,  what I meant was the OP doesn't have to think the worse, ie kissing spines. Yes I agree there's some discomfort/pain issue but with every horse being different it could be the tissue damage and muscle spasms that are the issue. X-rays could hopefully put the OP's mind at rest that the problems may well be more easily fixable with time, physio and sone basic building up from the ground.


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## millikins (16 August 2014)

I had a beautiful, sweet 6 yr old put down with a similar story to yours. Mine had an old pelvic/hip injury which he had coped with when unbroken. I thought about gentle hack, companion home but given his age and looks; flashy blagdon type which would appeal to certain unsavoury elements and not a good companion as wouldn't stay out alone, decided that as I couldn't offer him a certain future he should be pts. Even without scintigraphy (sp) the diagnostic tests and vet/physio cost £2k +. It was a heartbreaking decision but I've never felt it was the wrong one. Good luck with whatever you decide.


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## hairycob (16 August 2014)

millikins -for a  moment I thought you are someone I know who had a very similar story. She went over £5k in diagnostics & treatment but he was still pts at 6. I really feel for OP having seen my friend go through so much. Her horse didn't explode but his back legs collapsed under her.


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## Voxhorse (16 August 2014)

Breez said:



			Believe me, I feel the same. I think her point is that she thinks it is my fault - professional disagrees, but she's still convinced that he was fine when he left her. Or at least that's what she says.

The bottom line is whether to persevere (hence trying out get a basic idea of costs of these type of issues via here), solicitors letters (which to be honest, I doubt will work with her), rehome him and write off the purchase price, or pts. The last, I don't particularly want to do - he has too much of a lovely demeanor to write him off completely. Still feel slightly stuck between a rock and a hard place.
		
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It's a terrible situation to be in, I would be in bits. Don't know how she can think it's your fault, you have had him for too small a time to have damaged him in any way, they will do as much blag and bluff as possible to avoid paying you back. Have you spoken with anyone about it in the Legal profession ? when we get caught between the devil and the deep blue sea it's very difficult to think clearly and make decisions. Wish I had a magic wand.....


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## Amymay (21 August 2014)

Any update re the vet, op?


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## JoannaC (26 August 2014)

I'm guessing this is him :-( 

http://www.preloved.co.uk/adverts/show/111558298/beautiful-project-arab.html


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## hihosilver (26 August 2014)

oh dear poor poor horse


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## Breez (26 August 2014)

JoannaC said:



			I'm guessing this is him :-( 

http://www.preloved.co.uk/adverts/show/111558298/beautiful-project-arab.html

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Oh I do love H&H for its conclusion jumping. My boy is turned away on a friend's paddock for the time being while I decipher my options, hence lack of updates. Thank you all for your concern.

Beautiful horse though, Joanna!


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## JoannaC (26 August 2014)

I apologise for the mistake Breez but you have to admit it does sound similar!   Might be worth giving them a ring and seeing if they are related and compare notes, maybe same breeder?


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## Breez (26 August 2014)

JoannaC said:



			I apologise for the mistake Breez but you have to admit it does sound similar!   Might be worth giving them a ring and seeing if they are related and compare notes, maybe same breeder?
		
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You do have a point... I'll drop them a message and see what comes back.

I decided that as my guy is in no pain while just wandering round the field that we could afford to step back and think for a bit. It was a lucky change of circumstances that meant she had space for him there. It's a godsend, really.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (27 August 2014)

Hello OP, I have read most of the threads, and I am glad you have been able to have a respite from the problem, for a while anyway.

I think you need to consider taking these people to court, small claims which has a limit of £3000 I think.
you need to sit down and write a complete diary of events.

Here is my summation of the situation:

The basis of your claim is that horse is not fit for purpose.
The owner told you that horse was professionally broken.
She told you the reason it was not in work was due to their own illness.
You are a competent and responsible horse owner, and you consider the horse is unpredictable and dangerous / impossible to ride / sell.

The owner has refused to refund the money and take the horse back., having initially said they would take it back and only wanted a good home.

The professional breaker has been evasive, though you have to remember he may be in a difficult position. Your contract is with the vendor.
Write to the breaker [recorded delivery] explain that you have had problems, ask him to confirm that he broke the horse and that it was sound when it left him, and ready for sale as a riding pony.
Ask any professional who has examined the horse for a brief written report.
The BHS legal line is your first port of call.
Ask Trading Standards for advice.
Even if the owner is not in business, it does not mean they can lie when selling goods.

Expenses 
Cost of horse
Cost of new saddle
Cost of keep to date
Professional fees to date
You need to consider "cost" of not having a horse to ride
You need to consider the cost of further investigations, and the real possibility that the outcome will not be good.
I don't know if you can evaluate "stress", but I know that it is considerable, especially if you have to pts the animal, but you have to try to think these things through.
Other costs.

I hope my post does not distress you even more, others may have better suggestions, I hope so, but do keep a written record of everything, and google the owner's phone number every so often, if they are in the horse business, this may make things less complex.


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