# I cant make up my mind...thoughts on hunting



## dreamerinreallife (15 November 2019)

I am not new to H&Ho but have made this new account as I don't want to be identified

I can't make up my mind aboutbhunting. It was something I wanted to try so I went out a couple of times and I enjoyed it from a riding point of view. While I don't have any problems with Fox control and am comfortable with the shooting of vermin I don't believe in unneccesary suffering and have questioned whether being flushed by hounds causes unneccesary stress. However I must stress on the odd occasion I have been out I witnessed nothing untoward.

 But I do question whether it is something I want to be associated with. Now as someone with a farming background I am well aware of how footage and news can be manipulated into falsehood. But beyond that I have read stories of hunts being caught in some horrific acts....breaking the law....including one of the packs I have been out with....albeit many years ago,

This does cause me concern. I am in Scotland and we don't have drag or trail hunts here, it is all done as Fox control. I just can't make up my mind. .... what are everyones views bothfor and against? I think I need more education to get a well informed and balanced view......


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## OrangeAndLemon (15 November 2019)

I can't make my mind up either. I'm ok with that. I can respect other peoples pont of view I don't see why I need to have an opinion.


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## dreamerinreallife (15 November 2019)

OrangeAndLemon said:



			I can't make my mind up either. I'm ok with that. I can respect other peoples pont of view I don't see why I need to have an opinion.
		
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The reason why I would like to  learn more and feel better about it one way or another is because I did enjoy it but am in two minds over whether it's something I want to continue to rake part in and "be associated with" or just decide I enjoyed it and quit while my experience is only positive


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## The Fuzzy Furry (15 November 2019)

Dragging is great fun, probably faster than trail hunting tho.


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## dreamerinreallife (15 November 2019)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			Dragging is great fun, probably faster than trail hunting tho.
		
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Would love to give either a go! By as far as I know we don't have any up here in Scotland


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## Bernster (15 November 2019)

Shame there are no drag or blood hounds near you.


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## Melody Grey (15 November 2019)

There is an awful lot in you post OP that I identify with; I grew up 'proper' hunting before the ban in a farming community so I can't say I disagree with it wholesale. I disagree with the sense of entitlement that sometimes seems to come with hunting (expectation to go onto land etc) but agree that fox numbers need to be controlled by some means. I think society has moved on from this being through hunting though. 

I will attend hunt rides as I love the sense of occasion and the thrill of riding with others, so far haven't had to tackle riding with hounds for many years (not an awful lot of hunting in my area). It would be a real shame for the traditional elements (formal dress, riding together, jumping hedges and ditches, sherry, social events and charity fund raising) to be lost altogether though I think. Also, I think the hunt still has a role to play within the rural economy and hope that it somehow finds a way to survive in a way which is acceptable to society (ideal world thoughts!)


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## windand rain (15 November 2019)

I am ambivalent as I can see both sides, the rider side and entitlement bothers me but the fox killing doesnt as it to me is the best way to control them seen too many foxes die in agony or live with drastic injuries to accept that shooting is an option. Killed by hounds is a difinitive they either escape or are killed.


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## Kat (15 November 2019)

I hunt with bloodhounds, I won't risk being associated with illegal hunting activities because it could be catastrophic for my career. I don't particularly have a problem with fox control but one of our local fox hunts have been in trouble with the police. 

Our bloodhound pack are friendly approachable and inclusive so I enjoy supporting them.


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## Bernster (16 November 2019)

Kat - sane here. Iâ€™ve been out with 3 trail/ex foxhound packs and I prefer the atmosphere and organisation of the drag hunt.  Plus I donâ€™t have any internal philosophical debate (or sabs) to wrangle with!


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## Sandstone1 (16 November 2019)

I disagree with it on several points.   Firstly, it is now illegal but some hunts do still hunt foxes and get away with it.
Yes foxes do need to be controlled but they a far bigger problem in towns and cities than in the countryside.   This is due to the much easier supply of food from bins etc.
You dont get the hunt in cities!
The upset and damage the hunt causes to land  and another animals. I know some horses who go absolutely mental when they hear or see the hunt and very often no prior notice is given.
The attitude of a lot of hunt followers who think the world should stop for them.   Blocking roads, churning up grass verges riding on roads in dark and dull conditions without any high viz.
I'm afraid it is a out dated tradition.


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## TPO (16 November 2019)

There used to be a drag hunt in scotland (Kingdom Drag hounds). I googled but couldnt find any details so I'm assuming that its closed.

I tried searching on FB but only found sab pages.

I share much of the same opinions as OP. I am from a farming/hunting (falconry mainly) family and am fairly pragmatic about things. I know the devastation that foxes can cause but equally the hunting by dogs is not a quick and effective way to go that I'd choose for myself ðŸ˜

Whether you agree with (fox) hunting or not the law is the law. Packs who break those laws, not matter their personal beliefs, should be prosecuted. 

I slightly fell down the rabbit hole on a sab page watching videos and it wasnt pretty. There are some very underweight (not lean because they are fit) hounds, hounds trapped in fences and apparently left until sabs released them, a lamb killed by hounds and house chasing a field of llamas. I always thought, at the very least, that the huntsmen always had control of their dogs and that the hounds were well looked after. 

So after this mornings contemplating fox hunting is a no from me.


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## Equine_Dream (16 November 2019)

I feel your pain op. Its so controversial.

I used to be 100% against hunting. It was cruel evil and anyone who took part must be sick in the head.

Then I met my husband who was from a farming background. I started to see more of the other side of the coin. The damage caused by foxes. The affect it can have on farmers. While I still didn't agree with hunting I started to understand why others agreed with it and the need to control the fox population.

I also started to understand that alternative means of fox control were far from fool proof. Is a fox slowly dying from infection/blood loss from a badly aimed shot, or being poisoned and dying a slow excruciating death, any better than at the teeth of a pack of hounds?

I have been on perfectly legal trail hunts and I thoroughly enjoy the ride. My horses really enjoy themselves and I honestly know the pack I hunt with hunt within the law (they wouldn't be welcome on much of the land we ride on if the landowners got a wiff of illegal hunting). I still don't know how I feel about fox hunting itself from a moral point of view.

I have no respect for SABS or what they stand for. I 100% believe they don't give a toss about animal rights. I have witnessed them screaming in horse's faces, kicking out at hounds and calling 4yo children "murdering ****". They are nothing but thugs.


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## Mule (16 November 2019)

TPO said:



			There used to be a drag hunt in scotland (Kingdom Drag hounds). I googled but couldnt find any details so I'm assuming that its closed.

I tried searching on FB but only found sab pages.

I share much of the same opinions as OP. I am from a farming/hunting (falconry mainly) family and am fairly pragmatic about things. I know the devastation that foxes can cause but equally the hunting by dogs is not a quick and effective way to go that I'd choose for myself ðŸ˜

Whether you agree with (fox) hunting or not the law is the law. Packs who break those laws, not matter their personal beliefs, should be prosecuted.

I slightly fell down the rabbit hole on a sab page watching videos and it wasnt pretty. There are some very underweight (not lean because they are fit) hounds, hounds trapped in fences and apparently left until sabs released them, a lamb killed by hounds and house chasing a field of llamas. I always thought, at the very least, that the huntsmen always had control of their dogs and that the hounds were well looked after.

So after this mornings contemplating fox hunting is a no from me.
		
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Why would a hunt deliberately leave their hounds behind? A lot of work goes into training them.

At any rate, I don't know how I feel about hunting. I've only gone with out with my local drag hunt. I suppose I could try the real thing (it's legal where I am) but I don't think I'd bother when I can drag hunt. I haven't even done that in a while. I'm more into hacking and schooling these days (much to the beast's disgust)ðŸ˜€


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## TPO (16 November 2019)

mule said:



			Why would a hunt deliberately leave their hounds behind? A lot of work goes into training them.

At any rate, I don't know how I feel about hunting. I've only gone with out with my local drag hunt. I suppose I could try the real thing (it's legal where I am) but I don't think I'd bother when I can drag hunt. I haven't even done that in a while. I'm more into hacking and schooling these days (much to the beast's disgust)ðŸ˜€
		
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It was caught up in a barbed wire fence and guessing hunt lost sight/track of it. The sabs released it and it ran back to the pack.

Dont know why a hunt would have skinny hounds either and/or take it out hunting but they did and there is photographic and video evidence.


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## MotherOfChickens (16 November 2019)

I hunted as a teen down in England. These days I cannot hold with chasing a wild animal with a pack of dogs-any argument for it is outdated (I also dislike sabs with a passion!). I'm in Scotland, no hunts in the immediate vicinity -fox control is by a man with a gun and seems to work well enough and none of the farmers around here would let a hunt on their land for fox control or not.


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## Mule (16 November 2019)

MotherOfChickens said:



			I hunted as a teen down in England. These days I cannot hold with chasing a wild animal with a pack of dogs-any argument for it is outdated (I also dislike sabs with a passion!). I'm in Scotland, no hunts in the immediate vicinity -fox control is by a man with a gun and seems to work well enough and none of the farmers around here would let a hunt on their land for fox control or not.
		
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So is hunting with hounds legal in Scotland?


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## MotherOfChickens (16 November 2019)

mule said:



			So is hunting with hounds legal in Scotland?
		
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the Scottish hunting ban came in first but is weaker (no limit to number of hounds) than the English one-there's been a move to limit this mostly due to the amount of video evidence that hunts were acting illegally often.


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## Clodagh (16 November 2019)

In Scotland you can flush a fox to guns using hounds. I don't know much about it but there is an article in this weeks Shooting Times and it sounds pretty well organised.

I hunted in the past, pre ban, and the ethics never bothered me at all. I haven't been for years now.


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## Jellymoon (16 November 2019)

I completely get where you are coming from and relate to everything you say.
I hunted as a teen when before the ban with a well-known Leics pack and thoroughly enjoyed it, never experienced anything untoward. But then I was a teen and was probably just focussed on having a good time on my horse.
I have recently taken it up again as a middle aged grown up, and have so far been out with three different hunts. One was hunting within the law as far as I could tell but it wasnâ€™t very exiting, nothing much seemed to happen and it wasnâ€™t really worth the spend. Maybe the trails werenâ€™t very well-laid and the hounds werenâ€™t picking them up. The second one was most definitely not hunting within the law and left me with a very uncomfortable feeling. It was a bit more exciting though.
The third was hunting within the law as far as I could tell while trying to keep up and jump all the jumps! Was super fun and really nice bunch of people. Not up in Scotland though, sadly.
So my advice would be to do some research and maybe try some different packs, see how you feel.


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## Jellymoon (16 November 2019)

Oh, and yes, hunt rides (without hounds but in a group) or hunting rides (with hounds but not killing anything, like extreme hound exercise) are absolutely brilliant and worth seeking out. A few of our foxhunting packs do these as well as normal hunting days.


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## dreamerinreallife (16 November 2019)

Sandstone1 said:



			I disagree with it on several points.   Firstly, it is now illegal but some hunts do still hunt foxes and get away with it.
Yes foxes do need to be controlled but they a far bigger problem in towns and cities than in the countryside.   This is due to the much easier supply of food from bins etc.
You dont get the hunt in cities!
The upset and damage the hunt causes to land  and another animals. I know some horses who go absolutely mental when they hear or see the hunt and very often no prior notice is given.
The attitude of a lot of hunt followers who think the world should stop for them.   Blocking roads, churning up grass verges riding on roads in dark and dull conditions without any high viz.
I'm afraid it is a out dated tradition.
		
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In Scotland it is still legal to hunt foxes but the hounds should only flush to a gun. Exactly what happened so nothing illegal about it. It was also over farmland with permission from the farmer who was incredibly welcoming and happy to have everyone there. I know it isn't always like this but in the instance I seen it was all welcoming to his land, very friendly Tec x


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## dreamerinreallife (16 November 2019)

Thanks for all the responses. I am glad it is not just me... I always thought people were either for or against. I really wish in could try drag. Funny enough I have an English friend who lives up here but only hunts in England. She finds hunting boring up here and openly admits it's because it is actually for a "purpose" i.e. Fox control and she finds it slow and too much hanging around. Whereas the packs she goes with down south (not sure who) it is more of a "jolly" for want of a better word. It's a fun and fast paced day out. Thrills and spills. Obviously I can't attest to how accurate that description is I just take what she says as being correct


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## L&M (16 November 2019)

I also understand what you are saying. I come from a farming/hunting background and with my partner being field master for our local pack,  am still reasonably involved. I agree that hunting with hounds is an effective method of fox control, as tends to seek out the weak and the sick, and hate the thought of snares and traps as an alternative, and the suffering they could cause.

My cob has hunted since 4 yrs old - it is a way of life for him and he adores it. He finds the warmer weather very tedious, but at the sound of hounds come Autumn, turns into turbo cob. What I love about hunting is the faster pace riding, the challenge of obstacles, and getting to ride over stunning countryside that we wouldn't otherwise have access too. I have made life long friends on the hunting field and our hunting community is like extended family.

Our pack religiously lay a trail and 'attempt' to hunt within the law - but this is where the problem lies as your average hound does not understand the Hunting Act. A live trail is of more interest than the bottled one we import from the USA, and however well schooled the hounds are, there will always be occasions where things 'go wrong'.

But what I really hate about the current hunting environment is the bias and spin thrown about in the battle between the monitors and hunt supporters. I follow the Shropshire monitors page and they often write complete drivel - but their readers believe it, painting the hunting folk in an even worse light. But the way some hunts behave is equally intolerable.

Years ago I was proud to be a member of the hunting community - now I am very careful who I tell. I don't even wear my hunt supporters fleece in public anymore, for fear of abuse, and what way of life is that to live?

And this is what I think will kill hunting off, more than anything else. If there was a viable alternative, I would love to remain involved, but we have no drag packs near us, so will have one very grumpy horse when hunting goes.


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## ycbm (16 November 2019)

L&M said:



			Our pack religiously lay a trail and 'attempt' to hunt within the law - but this is where the problem lies as your average hound does not understand the Hunting Act. A live trail is of more interest than the bottled one we import from the USA, and however well schooled the hounds are, there will always be occasions where things 'go wrong'.

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I'm sorry but this is an argument that I can`t accept. Over many years, I have hunted with four different drag packs. I have seen hounds pick up a fox scent quite a few times, but they were always rapidly called off and put on the right scent, which they then stuck to.

If drag packs can reliably control hounds like this, so could ex fox packs.

If they wanted to.

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## L&M (16 November 2019)

But those hounds have been specifically trained to hunt a trail - a very different art...â€¦...although the hound lines that hunted fox should be long retired, their genetics won't.

I remember when our pack started trail hunting - they even drafted in some drag hounds that had never hunted live quarry as a positive influence, but remember the huntsman saying that it was nigh on impossible to get ours to adjust.

So although I take on board your view, and even agree with it on some points, would at least like you to respect that 'some' packs do really try to hunt within the law.


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## Bellaboo18 (16 November 2019)

Sandstone1 said:



			I disagree with it on several points.   Firstly, it is now illegal but some hunts do still hunt foxes and get away with it.
Yes foxes do need to be controlled but they a far bigger problem in towns and cities than in the countryside.   This is due to the much easier supply of food from bins etc.
You dont get the hunt in cities!
The upset and damage the hunt causes to land  and another animals. I know some horses who go absolutely mental when they hear or see the hunt and very often no prior notice is given.
The attitude of a lot of hunt followers who think the world should stop for them.   Blocking roads, churning up grass verges riding on roads in dark and dull conditions without any high viz.
I'm afraid it is a out dated tradition.
		
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I dislike everything about hunting. Sandstone put it well.
Our local hunt often go across the fields at our livery yard where they've been told they aren't welcome. They show a complete lack of respect and anyway I don't agree with killing for sport.


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## Tiddlypom (16 November 2019)

When you see practices like this, both recent:-

Fox cruelty:- South Herefordshire Hunt pair found guilty https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hereford-worcester-48584227

And this:- Kimblewick Hunt: Men released trapped fox 'into the path of a hunt' https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-50241821

Going on in â€˜trailâ€™ packs, I cannot see how anyone would continue to defend modern hunting. The Hunting fraternity has kept very quiet about the Kimblewick case, which is not surprising as the Head of Hunting at the Countryside Alliance is also Field Master for the Kimblewick Hunt. 

Busted.


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## ycbm (16 November 2019)

L&M said:



			But those hounds have been specifically trained to hunt a trail - a very different art...â€¦...although the hound lines that hunted fox should be long retired, their genetics won't.

I remember when our pack started trail hunting - they even drafted in some drag hounds that had never hunted live quarry as a positive influence, but remember the huntsman saying that it was nigh on impossible to get ours to adjust.

So although I take on board your view, and even agree with it on some points, would at least like you to respect that 'some' packs do really try to hunt within the law.
		
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They are all fox hounds. It's the training, not the genetics.

When fox hounds out drag hunting pick up fox they get very, very excited and you can hear the difference. And they get well whipped if they dont respond to being called off.

There has been over ten years to train fox hounds which used to fox hunt to behave the same as fox hounds which drag hunt. They're a completely different set of hounds by now.

I understand that you try to hunt within the letter of the law. But I don't believe that the law requires you to try hard enough to hunt without catching fox.
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## L&M (16 November 2019)

Which goes back to my point that the law is impossibe........a total ban is the only way to stop all this confusion and animosity.


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## Mule (16 November 2019)

I love riding across miles of open countryside too. That's the real attraction of it for me.


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## planete (17 November 2019)

I have got the instincts of a cave woman and used to get very excited following the hunt even on foot many moons ago.  My opinions have changed though as I started seeing through the 'tradition', rituals and 'glamour'.  In spite of many ethical hunt people it is a breeding ground for the cruel side of many,  it is no more efficient at controlling foxes than a skilled man  with a gun and it is unethical because it is enjoyment provided by a protracted pursuit of the quarry with a view to kill. I now think there are enough instances of fox hunts breaking the law to justify a total ban so I am no longer a fence sitter.


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## Orangehorse (17 November 2019)

I went hunting as a child, through Pony Club and was a subscriber too for a few years.  I greatly enjoyed it, didn't think it was cruel and I am glad I had those experiences. Hunting is what people did in winter, there were no indoor schools, no competitions to go to and it was considered part of every horse and rider's education and a test of courage for horse and rider.  I heard that one season the hunt killed over 90 foxes. 

Hunting became difficult after children, mostly because OH didn't want me to hunt, not from ethical reasons but because he knew a girl very badly injured in a hunting fall and "didn't want to be left with 3 children to look after."  I did hunt a couple of times after children, but havent' been for 30 years on horseback.

I opposed the ban on hunting, but have become far more ambivalent it now. The law was appallingly drawn up and allows the uncertainity to exist.  Even years ago I thought that the future was trail/drag hunting with hunts at least in counties like my own where the villages have expanded and the roads every more crowded, and having dozens of horses and a pack of hounds galloping up and down the roads isn't really on.  Land ownership has also changed, with livery yards where there were once just farms with empty fields in winter, so many barns made into houses so many more people living out in the countryside and younger farmers prefer to go shooting rather than hunting and don't much appreciate horses galloping over their fields, where their fathers had either ridden and even welcomed the hunt.  It is, like many other things, a different world now.  Just as an aside I can remember some of the older members of the hunt, ones who could probably remember me on a horse, used to say that it was different, the people were different and I think they were say that some seemed to have less knowledge about the countryside - but maybe it was just snobbery about the passing of the old days.

Although all our hunt literature states that they are "hunting within the law" I'm not sure what that means, and I don't even go on foot now as I don't feel I can really support hidden fox hunting which is against the law. Also, with all the trouble with sabs they don't even publish a list of meets so I couldn't just decide to go one day.  This is making it even more of a "closed shop."

If I had drawn up the law I would have said "the only hunting with a pack of hounds is following an artificial trail, set out by humans either on horseback, running or bike."


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## palo1 (18 November 2019)

I hunted pre-ban and still enjoy hunting post ban. In our part of the world it is still quite an important community thing.  The local hunt is largely welcomed by farmers and locals alike and the only negativity we have had is when car followers block the roads! Some farmers have problems with particular individuals usually due to unrelated and mostly agricultural arguments and subsequently one neighbour or another will decline to have the hunt visit. New country is opened and closed to us through the years as arguments/alliegances and farming practices wax and wane.  We very occasionally meet hunt monitors and both hunt followers and monitors tend to be polite for the brief periods that we are in contact.  We are often in quite public areas too. It is notable that on the whole the two lots of people never actually know each other and I have only seen monitors out twice in the last 7 years.   I have hunted for many years and have been fortunate that pre-ban never saw anything which made me feel uncomfortable.  The death of a fox by hounds is brutal but instant and I have been fortunate that those hunts I have known have been entirely professional in dealing with foxes.  Post ban, it is more difficult because hunts are trying to anticipate how they may be 'caught out' and it is not easy to know exactly how close to the right line hounds are but it is still possible to watch and listen to hounds working out a line across natural country and to do your best to keep with them!!  It is a great challenge and brilliant company if you are lucky!!  More people are enjoying hunting now than pre-ban remember so all is not doom and gloom.

I am sure that there are horribly cruel people attracted to any kind of pest or animal control - the killing of animals for any reason, if it is done directly is likely to brutalise people to a degree, even if that would never be their choice.  That includes those that work in slaughter houses, farmers who have to kill an animal for humane reasons, those that kill rats and possibly, to a degree even vets who have to deal with some difficult and very necessary deaths.  Most of us, most of the time don't have to get near the dirty end of any kind of animal control even though many of us eat meat.  This brutalising influence is one of the best arguments I think for vegetarianism.  

I never agreed with the hunting ban and felt horrified at the time that such an iconic and culturally significant animal as the fox would be reduced to to being controlled by any means other than by hounds.  In Britain, as in all places where foxes naturally occur, they evolved to be predated on by bears and wolves.  There is no difference to a fox being hunted by hounds as by wolves.  We got rid of our wolves here!! Pre ban and in places where foxes are still hunted by hounds,  foxes show very very few signs of distress or behaviour modification during a hunt; they have been filmed even hunting and killing on their own account.  The final part of a hunt, whether by hounds or wolves is certainly stressful but there is a totally binary outcome and I am (or would be) at peace with that.  

Many people who opposed fox hunting never witnessed or tried to understand it and seemed to make all sorts of assumptions about it.  If you remove some of the ghastly, entitled people who traditionally participated it would probably have been easier for people to accept.  As it is, ordinary people still take part in a minority activity yet are in fear of harrassment by masked and potentially violent antis.  That simply wouldnt be tolerated in cities or towns for any reason.  It just feels like class and cultural warfare to be honest and I really don't think it has anything to do with animal welfare.   If it did, those vociferous antis would better occupy their time worrying about and doing something about factory farming, farm animal welfare, rural conservation, puppy farming and other issues which have a huge impact on animal welfare.


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## Tiddlypom (18 November 2019)

palo1 said:



			It just feels like class and cultural warfare to be honest and I really don't think it has anything to do with animal welfare.
		
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It doesnâ€™t?

How about the South Herefordshire Hunt and the Kimblewick Hunt cases referred to in post #28? Foul practices against animals caught on remote CCTV. How rare do you think that kind of stuff is in the hunting fraternity? If it hadnâ€™t been captured on video and the evidence taken to court, the pro hunt side would deny that anything like it ever happens. 

All trail packs insist that they hunt legally and that they are welcomed into the countryside. Some of them may be telling the truth, but others most certainly are not. Trying to deflect genuine concerns about trail hunt conduct with some whataboutery is disingenuous.

FWIW, as I have said previously on the Hunting board, I believe that the countryside and wildlife were better managed pre ban, in order to provide sport. I hunted pre ban. But times and the law have changed.

Going back to the OP, I do not know how hunting now works in Scotland, barring knowing that hounds are allowed to flush to guns, which sounds very hairy to me (I hate guns).


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## Bellaboo18 (18 November 2019)

palo1 said:



			It feels like class and cultural warfare to be honest and I really don't think it has anything to do with animal welfare.   If it did, those vociferous antis would better occupy their time worrying about and doing something about factory farming, farm animal welfare, rural conservation, puppy farming and other issues which have a huge impact on animal welfare.
		
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It's definitely about animal welfare for me.


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## ycbm (18 November 2019)

palo1 said:



			I hunted pre-ban and still enjoy hunting post ban. In our part of the world it is still quite an important community thing.  The local hunt is largely welcomed by farmers and locals alike and the only negativity we have had is when car followers block the roads! Some farmers have problems with particular individuals usually due to unrelated and mostly agricultural arguments and subsequently one neighbour or another will decline to have the hunt visit. New country is opened and closed to us through the years as arguments/alliegances and farming practices wax and wane.  We very occasionally meet hunt monitors and both hunt followers and monitors tend to be polite for the brief periods that we are in contact.  We are often in quite public areas too. It is notable that on the whole the two lots of people never actually know each other and I have only seen monitors out twice in the last 7 years.   I have hunted for many years and have been fortunate that pre-ban never saw anything which made me feel uncomfortable.  The death of a fox by hounds is brutal but instant and I have been fortunate that those hunts I have known have been entirely professional in dealing with foxes.  Post ban, it is more difficult because hunts are trying to anticipate how they may be 'caught out' and it is not easy to know exactly how close to the right line hounds are but it is still possible to watch and listen to hounds working out a line across natural country and to do your best to keep with them!!  It is a great challenge and brilliant company if you are lucky!!  More people are enjoying hunting now than pre-ban remember so all is not doom and gloom.

I am sure that there are horribly cruel people attracted to any kind of pest or animal control - the killing of animals for any reason, if it is done directly is likely to brutalise people to a degree, even if that would never be their choice.  That includes those that work in slaughter houses, farmers who have to kill an animal for humane reasons, those that kill rats and possibly, to a degree even vets who have to deal with some difficult and very necessary deaths.  Most of us, most of the time don't have to get near the dirty end of any kind of animal control even though many of us eat meat.  This brutalising influence is one of the best arguments I think for vegetarianism. 

I never agreed with the hunting ban and felt horrified at the time that such an iconic and culturally significant animal as the fox would be reduced to to being controlled by any means other than by hounds.  In Britain, as in all places where foxes naturally occur, they evolved to be predated on by bears and wolves.  There is no difference to a fox being hunted by hounds as by wolves.  We got rid of our wolves here!! Pre ban and in places where foxes are still hunted by hounds,  foxes show very very few signs of distress or behaviour modification during a hunt; they have been filmed even hunting and killing on their own account.  The final part of a hunt, whether by hounds or wolves is certainly stressful but there is a totally binary outcome and I am (or would be) at peace with that. 

Many people who opposed fox hunting never witnessed or tried to understand it and seemed to make all sorts of assumptions about it.  If you remove some of the ghastly, entitled people who traditionally participated it would probably have been easier for people to accept.  As it is, ordinary people still take part in a minority activity yet are in fear of harrassment by masked and potentially violent antis.  That simply wouldnt be tolerated in cities or towns for any reason.  It just feels like class and cultural warfare to be honest and I really don't think it has anything to do with animal welfare.
		
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Very good post to here. 




			If it did, those vociferous antis would better occupy their time worrying about and doing something about factory farming, farm animal welfare, rural conservation, puppy farming and other issues which have a huge impact on animal welfare.
		
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I don't think this is much of a class thing now, I  think they are up in arms about other things too. They have the rest of the week and the closed season. 

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## palo1 (18 November 2019)

Well maybe not a class thing so much as a cultural one...


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## Bellaboo18 (18 November 2019)

palo1 said:



			Well maybe not a class thing so much as a cultural one...
		
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No still animal welfare for me


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## palo1 (18 November 2019)

Tiddlypom said:



			It doesnâ€™t?

How about the South Herefordshire Hunt and the Kimblewick Hunt cases referred to in post #28? Foul practices against animals caught on remote CCTV. How rare do you think that kind of stuff is in the hunting fraternity? If it hadnâ€™t been captured on video and the evidence taken to court, the pro hunt side would deny that anything like it ever happens.

All trail packs insist that they hunt legally and that they are welcomed into the countryside. Some of them may be telling the truth, but others most certainly are not. Trying to deflect genuine concerns about trail hunt conduct with some whataboutery is disingenuous.

FWIW, as I have said previously on the Hunting board, I believe that the countryside and wildlife were better managed pre ban, in order to provide sport. I hunted pre ban. But times and the law have changed.

Going back to the OP, I do not know how hunting now works in Scotland, barring knowing that hounds are allowed to flush to guns, which sounds very hairy to me (I hate guns).
		
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I get the outrage about the SHH and The Kimblewick; I don't know much about the Kimblewick incident tbh but what happened at the SHH is simply disgusting animal cruelty and has no place at all in any kind of organised hunt or form of animal control.  I hate to think how that set of practices came about as well.  The result in hunting circles is that the SHH and all who hunted with her are pariahs and openly unwelcome in many other places.  Before this incident, oddly enough the SHH was much more of a 'closed' circle than many would have wanted; not especially welcoming of visitors and with a long history of conflict about hunting practices etc amongst themselves.  At least that is the view of many I know who were closer to them.  I wonder if that was because people within the hunt knew there was something vile and rotten or at least were uncomfortable enough to not want to open their group to others.  I cannot say what happens with other hunts - I only know where I hunt our hunt staff would not have time, inclination or the stomach for anything like that.  I know them well enough and see enough of their daily lives to be very confident that this kind of thing is logistically and personally almost impossible.  At the time of the SHH incident,  anyone I knew felt horrified and disgusted by what they did - it's just not part of what hunting is/stands for/has been traditionally.


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## palo1 (18 November 2019)

Bellaboo18 said:



			No still animal welfare for me
		
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How do you deal with rats Bellaboo18?  Genuine question as they too are sentient, highly intelligent and social animals which we feel the need to control.  It bothers me enormously that somehow it is not hypocritical to not mind about rats being killed in a horrible fashion (or many horrible ways) yet have a call to arms about killing foxes in a way that is as close to 'natural' as could be in this time?


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## Tiddlypom (18 November 2019)

Palo1, this is the video footage taken on 1 Jan 2019 that helped to convict two â€˜countrymenâ€™ employed by the Kimblewick Hunt. Itâ€™s interesting that while the Hunting fraternity were quick to condemn the South Herefordshire incident, thereâ€™s hardly been a peep out of them about the Kimblewick Hunt. The two men are due be sentenced later this month, they are facing custodial sentences for â€˜causing unnecessary suffering to a protected animal.â€™ They prodded a fox out of an artificial earth with drainage rods, grabbed it by its tail and released it shortly before hounds arrived. They are clearly interacting with and doing the bidding of unseen others who were not in court.








The Head of Hunting at the Countryside Alliance, who should at all times demonstrate good practice for others to follow, is Field Master of the Kimblewick Hunt.


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## Bellaboo18 (18 November 2019)

palo1 said:



			How do you deal with rats Bellaboo18?  Genuine question as they too are sentient, highly intelligent and social animals which we feel the need to control.  It bothers me enormously that somehow it is not hypocritical to not mind about rats being killed in a horrible fashion (or many horrible ways) yet have a call to arms about killing foxes in a way that is as close to 'natural' as could be in this time?
		
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Honestly, I've never had a rat problem and therefore never had to control them. I definitely wouldn't feel it was appropriate to throw a kill the rat party though.
I'm quite a live and let live person so am fine that we have different opinions but I think you're wrong in assuming animal welfare isn't the main argument against fox hunting. I (also genuinely) wonder if it makes you feel better thinking people oppose hunting due to class/culture.


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## ycbm (18 November 2019)

palo1 said:



			How do you deal with rats Bellaboo18?  Genuine question as they too are sentient, highly intelligent and social animals which we feel the need to control.  It bothers me enormously that somehow it is not hypocritical to not mind about rats being killed in a horrible fashion (or many horrible ways) yet have a call to arms about killing foxes in a way that is as close to 'natural' as could be in this time?
		
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I think it's the chase, the glorying in a long chase in hunting reports, the digging (or poking!) out, the cubbing to train young hounds, and the hound injuries and deaths which bother people more than the quick moment of the kill. It does me, anyway. 

Nobody chases a rat before killing it except a cat.

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## palo1 (18 November 2019)

Bellaboo18 said:



			Honestly, I've never had a rat problem and therefore never had to control them. I definitely wouldn't feel it was appropriate to throw a kill the rat party though.
I'm quite a live and let live person so am fine that we have different opinions but I think you're wrong in assuming animal welfare isn't the main argument against fox hunting. I (also genuinely) wonder if it makes you feel better thinking people oppose hunting due to class/culture.
		
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No, it doesn't make me feel better or different viewing opposition to hunting as a class or cultural thing - it's just how I see it.  I have, in my lifetime been pro, anti and completely ambivalent to hunting so have shared views and experiences with quite a variety of people about it. My experience is that many people opposed to hunting use class or cultural terms of reference with regard to those who are involved in it.  

Sadly, I expect you have never had a rat problem because others around you (whether living in rural or urban areas) are 'dealing' with rats on your behalf.  It is unrealistic to expect them not to have to be dealt with as they are hugely successful and unfortunately not terribly compatible with how most people wish to live.  I don't think anyone would 'throw a kill a rat party'!!!  Is that how you seen illegal hunting do you think? (as in 'throwing a let's kill a fox party''). That might suggest that you have very little experience of how people in the countryside who want to deal with a problem fox might think.  Where foxes are controlled by guns, for example, do you think that those people suggest that? In my experience that is absolutely not how it works.  There is a world of misunderstanding in this subject but perhaps the more people share their views and opinions the better.


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## palo1 (18 November 2019)

ycbm said:



			I think it's the chase, the glorying in a long chase in hunting reports, the digging (or poking!) out, the cubbing to train young hounds, and the hound injuries and deaths which bother people more than the quick moment of the kill. It does me, anyway.

Nobody chases a rat before killing it except a cat.

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I think terriers probably chase rats and that is legal.   I get your point about the way hunting reports might be though I don't perceive the 'glorying' myself.  That always seems to me to be an oppositional construct and interpretation.   In all the historical hunting reports I have read the longer 'hunts' or 'points' reference the quite astounding qualities of a fox in terms of cunning, stamina and knowledge of evasion.  They are remarkable animals.  When I hunted as a child foxes were hugely respected by the hunting community.  Most people I know that hunt will see foxes in the summer and if they are healthy, wish them well and to live a good life.  But hell, there seems little point in me banging on with the same things that have been said many times before where people have no interest in listening or considering an alternative approach...


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## Equi (18 November 2019)

palo1 said:



			Sadly, I expect you have never had a rat problem because others around you (whether living in rural or urban areas) are 'dealing' with rats on your behalf.
		
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This a lot. I have in 20 years seen one fox (it was in my field very dead with a bashed in head and a horse looking very smug) but i know any others are taken care of by the neighbours who raise birds, foals and hunt. With very small equines i have to say this gives me a lot of reassurance. I worry more about my other neighbours german shepherds.. I have never seen a rat either and i have seen maybe 5 rabbits but they never stay long. A rabbit hole to a miniature leg would be a death sentence. I have never hunted (too chicken) but im highly thankful that my neighbours take care of the land and that includes mine..so i live a fairly stress free life.


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## ycbm (18 November 2019)

palo1 said:



			.  But hell, there seems little point in me banging on with the same things that have been said many times before where people have no interest in listening or considering an alternative approach...
		
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Both sides of this discussion feel the same. There isn't really any middle ground on this issue. You either feel its acceptable to chase an animal before you kill it, and all the other stuff that goes with that activity, or you don't. 

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## Clodagh (18 November 2019)

palo1 said:



			I think terriers probably chase rats and that is legal.   I get your point about the way hunting reports might be though I don't perceive the 'glorying' myself.  That always seems to me to be an oppositional construct and interpretation.   In all the historical hunting reports I have read the longer 'hunts' or 'points' reference the quite astounding qualities of a fox in terms of cunning, stamina and knowledge of evasion.  They are remarkable animals.  When I hunted as a child foxes were hugely respected by the hunting community.  Most people I know that hunt will see foxes in the summer and if they are healthy, wish them well and to live a good life.  But hell, there seems little point in me banging on with the same things that have been said many times before where people have no interest in listening or considering an alternative approach...
		
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Please don't go down the usual pro/anti - 'Well I won't change your point so I'm gunna havva strop reply' I may not always agree with you but I respect your opinion and how you feel about it.
I am not especially anti or pro nowadays but I agree with ycbm, either you are happy to chase an animal and then kill it or you are not. I have had some far better days hunting rats with terriers than foxes with hounds, and have enjoyed both in the past.


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## Bernster (18 November 2019)

At least there are some more measured and considered points being made on this thread than many threads on here.  Itâ€™s obv a very emotive topic so can degenerate very quickly but I for one appreciate the debate so far and have read with interest.

Iâ€™ve been very anti hunt in the past, then hunted post ban and appreciated elements of the pro argument.  I then saw a few things that made me uncomfortable so am sticking to drag now.

Palo - I do think it feels a lot like a â€˜throw a fox killing partyâ€™ and itâ€™s easy to see why people might get that impression, although I appreciate that there are other perspectives out there.


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## palo1 (18 November 2019)

Clodagh said:



			Please don't go down the usual pro/anti - 'Well I won't change your point so I'm gunna havva strop reply' I may not always agree with you but I respect your opinion and how you feel about it.
I am not especially anti or pro nowadays but I agree with ycbm, either you are happy to chase an animal and then kill it or you are not. I have had some far better days hunting rats with terriers than foxes with hounds, and have enjoyed both in the past.
		
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Yes, it is sometimes terribly irritating to keep trying to explain and be reasonable when you just feel that there is not the slightest interest in your point of view.   I do understand the anti-hunt feelings having previously felt very anti-hunting myself.  I know how angry, disgusted and offended it is possible to feel when you see hunting in action; the number and noise of hounds, the clothing, the rituals, the archaic language and 'etiquette' - all related to the pursuit of a native mammal.  I do get it; I have been there though I was never an 'active' anti (I am actually probably far too 'polite' and self conscious to want to get into a conflict situation).  

What changed for me; having hunted as child and just accepting that, then challenging those ideas to feel very 'anti' later as a young adult, student and subsequently an independent working adult was an understanding that the rituals, language, etiquette etc are, anthropologically speaking, cultural 'dressing' of something else.  That something else is the activity of 'hunting' which is very much part of what it has been to be human, or even to be an omnivorous animal (!) As a species we have hunted animals for food, to protect our homes/selves or to control the population of other species since time-immemorial.   It doesn't have to be part of our culture now of course, in the 21st century though hunting animals is far more widely accepted than it is reviled in most cultures (that is not to say it shouldn't be an individual choice).   BUT it is hard to escape the truth of our cultural and innate relationship with hunting in it's many forms and the value of that connection with nature.   For me, hunting is an essential connection to other species; it requires knowledge and understanding and the facing of a number of difficult realities; most importantly the taking of the life of another creature. I am very aware that we do that all the time if we farm and eat meat and for me the taking of an animal's life should not be taken for granted.  I am really quite ambivalent about the 'rightness' of some farming methods but that is another issue!!  

I have very much loved pet animals and have some of our own animals here which we kill for food. That isn't ever done light-heartedly and I don't think it should be.  BUT I can't escape from my own, sincere view that the killing of an animal in a way that is as natural and 'evolved' as possible is better, fairer, more respectful and more attune to the natural order than poison, gas, snaring, long distance travel (of some farm animals)  etc - especially when this can take place at any time of year, rather than at a time when a fox, for example, has raised it's young cubs and will either be strong and healthy (therefore likely to survive) or could be hunted and killed in a really natural way. I feel this view is shared by many vets, naturalists and conservationists too though of course it is not fashionable and is increasingly demonised in popular culture which in itself feels a long way from some of the things that are important to me.  

Individually it quite saddens me that society wants to be so distanced from our 'natural' selves though I completely accept that for some people their most natural self is vegetarian, vegan (it's not about the food here folks, but our relationship and behaviour toward the other species we share our fragile planet with).   That is just not me though; I am at ease with the realities I see.  I completely accept that some people would see my views as 'convenient', that I am dressing up a desire to be cruel and elitist with fancy ideas about human culture but thank goodness we live in a free (ish) country.  It is interesting too that some of the most precious and fragile communities that are almost universally perceived as valuable in holding knowledge, skill and hope for the future are those that have some remaining elements of a hunting/gathering culture.  Not only that but some rewilding charities and organisations see hunting (either by large re-introduced predators or by humans) as having a place in some of the emerging solutions to climate change.  There is a lot of food for thought there and much of it, thankfully is a long way from red coats, badly parked horseboxes and hairnets...


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## Clodagh (19 November 2019)

Now I completely get the thrill of the chase. The adrenalin when hounds found and struck off on the line. To me though, hunting was always about hound work not charging about (just as well in Essex) and to watch a hound that possibly you had walked as a pup, strike a line across the plough and then the horn and the laying on of the pack, it is an atavistic human response to get excited. And a horses tbh!
I loved the etiquette involved and in fact stopped hunting a season after the ban as so many people came out of the woodwork who didn't know grass from drilled wheat, didn't care anyway, had lots of money and thought having a jolly over someones crops was what it was all about. So not because my feelings towards the fox had changed but because the people involved were no longer in tune with any form of rural life.
I never have felt a great deal of sympathy towards the fox, I know it is instinctual for them to kill but so is it us. Anyone that doesn't object to their cat playing with a mouse, bird or bat for hours should not feel that strongly against humans doing the same.
I am also possibly the most law abiding person in the world! And when hounds found and you immediately felt guilty and furtive that was no fun. I haven't been for so long now that it may well have bedded down into the new regime.


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## HashRouge (19 November 2019)

equi said:



			This a lot. I have in 20 years seen one fox (it was in my field very dead with a bashed in head and a horse looking very smug) but i know any others are taken care of by the neighbours who raise birds, foals and hunt. With very small equines i have to say this gives me a lot of reassurance. I worry more about my other neighbours german shepherds.. I have never seen a rat either and i have seen maybe 5 rabbits but they never stay long. A rabbit hole to a miniature leg would be a death sentence. I have never hunted (too chicken) but im highly thankful that my neighbours take care of the land and that includes mine..so i live a fairly stress free life.
		
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With all due respect, this is a bit of a nothing argument. Just because you don't see rats/ foxes doesn't mean they are not around. Country foxes are pretty shy and it is perfectly possible to have some living fairly close by and never see them.


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## ycbm (19 November 2019)

Clodagh said:



			Anyone that doesn't object to their cat playing with a mouse, bird or bat for hours should not feel that strongly against humans doing the same.
.
		
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Cant agree with you there, C.  

I might when cats start to go to school and implement cat laws against racist behaviour to Bengals.

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## Smogul (19 November 2019)

L&M said:



			I agree that hunting with hounds is an effective method of fox control, as tends to seek out the weak and the sick, and hate the thought of snares and traps as an alternative, and the suffering they could cause.
when hunting goes.
		
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I am confused. If you want to control an animal population, surely you kill off the healthy ones before they reproduce? Nature will get rid of the weak and sick.


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## palo1 (19 November 2019)

ycbm said:



			Both sides of this discussion feel the same. There isn't really any middle ground on this issue. You either feel its acceptable to chase an animal before you kill it, and all the other stuff that goes with that activity, or you don't.

.
		
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Well you are right in this particular issue ycbm but I do think it a bit simplistic as there are so many different contexts for hunting/killing animals.  I think it is ok to chase/hunt a fox with hounds before they kill it BUT would absolutely never support the hunting and killing of other animals such as whales but I believe you meant within the context of hunting with dogs.  I know that some people want to polarise the issue but that isn't helpful at all I don't think.


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## palo1 (19 November 2019)

Smogul said:



			I am confused. If you want to control an animal population, surely you kill off the healthy ones before they reproduce? Nature will get rid of the weak and sick.
		
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In this instance though, historically wolves would have taken the weak and sick.  Before the Hunting Act hounds fulfilled this function.  There is plenty of evidence too to demonstrate that having predators 'disrupting' the activities of prey helps to manage an ecosystem much better so even where not a significant number of foxes was killed by hounds, the regular hunting of foxes dispersed them more naturally and also ensured the population was never as static - resulting in a healthier population.


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## Clodagh (19 November 2019)

I think the weak and sick argument doesnâ€™t really work. On a good scenting day a healthy fox is as likely to be caught as a mangey one with poor scent. Hunting definitely has a very important part to play with population and pest control in upland areas. A man with a gun is more effective in many others.


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## Clodagh (19 November 2019)

ycbm said:



			Cant agree with you there, C.  

I might when cats start to go to school and implement cat laws against racist behaviour to Bengals.

.
		
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I think you are suggesting that we are evolutionarily and intellectually superior to cats. I think humans are inferior to most other species on many scales.


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## LKWilliams (19 November 2019)

I come from a rural back ground and am part of the farming community. My other half is a farmer and has land of which the hounds run over. Ive met lifelong friends on the hunt field. Hunting may become a thing of the past with the amount of people whom are uneducated opposing it. I agree you can all have an opinion and I admire those who seek to become educated before forming one. I have always hunted and I always will. 

The sabs are a big problem, I havent put my much loved 'keep hunting' window sticker on my car due to the fear of being abused at the hands of sabs and extreemists.

I say keep hunting but appreciated you are all entitled to your own opinion.


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## palo1 (19 November 2019)

Clodagh said:



			I think you are suggesting that we are evolutionarily and intellectually superior to cats. I think humans are inferior to most other species on many scales.
		
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I think a massive part of the reason we are experiencing climate crisis is because humans see themselves as separate and different to other mammals and don't function within that ecosystem tbh.  We absolutely need to see the bigger picture of our place and role on the planet in order to make progress.  Historically that is probably all to do with religious narratives about God, man and the garden of Eden.   I think though that ycbm was just lightening the tone a bit! It does drive me nuts though when I read about the number of song birds killed by domestic cats....(no I don't own a cat btw!)


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## Bernster (19 November 2019)

The bit I struggle with is that you can get all of that (imo) without needing a fox at the end of it i.e. blood or drag hunts.  So the only effective difference seems to be the fox control element.  Having a great gaggle of horses out on a hunt seems a very odd and inefficient way to deliver that.

Wouldn't it work just as well, if not better, to have a small group of folk out hunting foxes and dispatching them quickly and cleanly?  I get that this would still upset some.  If animal control is needed, aren't there quicker, cleaner, less distressing ways to do that?


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## palo1 (19 November 2019)

Yes, of course though drag hunts and bloodhounding are a bit different (and different to each other too).  Drag hunting is ALL about the riding experience as lines are pretty predictable, intended to be 'rideable' and usually safe enough to do at speed possibly over fences.  Bloodhounding is of course about hunting a real person.   Trail hunting covers much more variable ground, not all of it rideable (trail layers have to think and act like foxes after all) and can be trappy or challenging to ride.  The joy in trail hunting and blood hounding is the hound work of course; watching the way they work individually and as a team can be completely amazing, as well as their speed, athleticism and stamina across country.  That of course is why horses are helpful.  There is also a horsemanship challenge to try to follow hounds as closely as possible - that is certainly sometimes thrilling and brings an entirely new element to a horse and rider partnership. 

I understand your suggestion to just have a small group out hunting; in fact, that is what the huntsman and whips used to to do; the following field on horses were there for the challenge of following hounds across country, but of course they would take an interest in the outcome to a hunt - for reasons including that this helps to make sense of the hither and yon fashion of the day.  Unless you have been hunting with a decent hunt that could be lost on some people tbh.  The horses (other than those of huntsman and whips) have no part to play in traditional hunting though members of the field did used to be informally deployed in some situations; to stop foxes/hounds running where they were not 'allowed' (ie to stop the fox having an easy way out) or to act as a viewing aid (i.e did the fox go that way or another?)

There is considerable agreement (though not universal) that in hill/upland areas a pack of hounds really is the best way of getting rid of foxes but that would probably be very, very difficult to agree in political terms.


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## Clodagh (19 November 2019)

Bernster said:



			The bit I struggle with is that you can get all of that (imo) without needing a fox at the end of it i.e. blood or drag hunts.  So the only effective difference seems to be the fox control element.  Having a great gaggle of horses out on a hunt seems a very odd and inefficient way to deliver that.

Wouldn't it work just as well, if not better, to have a small group of folk out hunting foxes and dispatching them quickly and cleanly?  I get that this would still upset some.  If animal control is needed, aren't there quicker, cleaner, less distressing ways to do that?
		
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It just isn't the same...and I know that sounds like the ultimate cop out reply. Bloodhounds or drag you may as well just go cross country schooling, but get drunk first if you like. There is no interest or skill, you don't need to see a hound, it's just gallop...stop...drink...gallop.
Watching a good huntsman hunting a pack of hounds (am taking BITD when I used to go) is totally different, the skill and forethought and how the three species involed in the hunt work together. (as in the human, hound and horse).


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## ester (19 November 2019)

Bernster said:



			The bit I struggle with is that you can get all of that (imo) without needing a fox at the end of it i.e. blood or drag hunts.  So the only effective difference seems to be the fox control element.  Having a great gaggle of horses out on a hunt seems a very odd and inefficient way to deliver that.

Wouldn't it work just as well, if not better, to have a small group of folk out hunting foxes and dispatching them quickly and cleanly?  I get that this would still upset some.  If animal control is needed, aren't there quicker, cleaner, less distressing ways to do that?
		
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I've always been given the impression (by landowners) that without the fox removal they wouldn't allow the hunt on their land. I know some packs have lost a significant amount post-ban but with the ones I know it might just be that they have upset people too many times. 

I do wonder whether training with something other than fox urine, although taking a time to bed in might stop as many heading off after the real thing although I've only once observed an issue calling hounds off a line partly due to the access. 

I don't think it's been mentioned but the bit that sits particularly uncomfortably with me is digging out, and that bit is still legal.


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## palo1 (19 November 2019)

Clodagh said:



			It just isn't the same...and I know that sounds like the ultimate cop out reply. Bloodhounds or drag you may as well just go cross country schooling, but get drunk first if you like. There is no interest or skill, you don't need to see a hound, it's just gallop...stop...drink...gallop.
Watching a good huntsman hunting a pack of hounds (am taking BITD when I used to go) is totally different, the skill and forethought and how the three species involed in the hunt work together. (as in the human, hound and horse).
		
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THIS!!  I know how hateful antis find the idea but true hunting provides a huge depth of connection, skill, knowledge, respect and judgement.  Those are good things when applied to our landscape and native species. Especially now.  I think if we lose all those traditional hunting skills, values and knowledge we will do our own natural system a huge disservice.  A huntsman and his team potentially have a whole range of other knowledge and understanding of species behaviour than anyone else and we stand to lose that in the next generation or so at our peril.  IF we witnessed the death of hunting culture in a developing country as a result of the will of a highly urbanised community, many many people would find that difficult and argue that traditional hunting cultures preserve balance in nature far better than urban, political interventions.  Rather than lose that for political means it may be better to accept some hard realities about nature and the need for balance.  It has rarely been those that live and hunt in a landscape that have led to it's destruction - more often those that 'come in' and try to wield the land to their own particular ends.  I think it worth saying too that hunting has a place in British culture; through employment, horse breeding, literature, songs, poetry, art, racing and semantics. It doesn't have to of course and times change everywhere but it IS part of who we are (not just in Britain obviously!!).


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## LKWilliams (19 November 2019)

palo1 said:



			THIS!!  I know how hateful antis find the idea but true hunting provides a huge depth of connection, skill, knowledge, respect and judgement.  Those are good things when applied to our landscape and native species. Especially now.  I think if we lose all those traditional hunting skills, values and knowledge we will do our own natural system a huge disservice.  A huntsman and his team potentially have a whole range of other knowledge and understanding of species behaviour than anyone else and we stand to lose that in the next generation or so at our peril.  IF we witnessed the death of hunting culture in a developing country as a result of the will of a highly urbanised community, many many people would find that difficult and argue that traditional hunting cultures preserve balance in nature far better than urban, political interventions.  Rather than lose that for political means it may be better to accept some hard realities about nature and the need for balance.  It has rarely been those that live and hunt in a landscape that have led to it's destruction - more often those that 'come in' and try to wield the land to their own particular ends.  I think it worth saying too that hunting has a place in British culture; through employment, horse breeding, literature, songs, poetry, art, racing and semantics. It doesn't have to of course and times change everywhere but it IS part of who we are (not just in Britain obviously!!).
		
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Very well said!


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## palo1 (19 November 2019)

https://www.facebook.com/Norwichsabs/?__tn__=,dkCH-R-R&eid=ARDngznfV0jKH9FrwVzpYg3HDZ4mdUrjhivyISqhAGv9ncb2ql7AxRBHaXvPp50tIrhJ83LU6NEFCPgg&hc_ref=ARSe_1MkE5ZN4lb_MGoUnq3k_x238hGq1aLEXnNAJipkjPejKi5NTNOfwBBFWpqOMiU&fref=nf&hc_location=group  This is an interesting clip.  The antis/sabs here are absolutely frustrated that they can't 'create' a problem.  It's pretty pointless behaviour but hounds behave beautifully!  Well done that huntsman in keeping his cool and all hounds on the same page.  I am referring to the November 17th clip here.


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## Tiddlypom (19 November 2019)

Are we all talking about trail hunting or about traditional pre ban hunting here? The ban will never be repealed, that battle is long lost. And the way too many â€˜trailâ€™ packs are conducting themselves means that an all out ban is inevitable, itâ€™s just the timing of that which is debatable. 

Itâ€™s all well and good bleating about how unfair the nasty antis are, but when some packs are regularly and intentionally violating the law, its no wonder that the antis think they still have a job to do.


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## palo1 (19 November 2019)

I don't think anyone has been 'bleating' the discussion has been pretty civilised and open I think.  It might not be the right thread to have posted that clip to be fair but from someone who supports legal trail hunting and the now banned fox hunting it feels right to show that the moral high ground has NOT been taken by any one side.


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## Clodagh (19 November 2019)

Tiddlypom said:



			Are we all talking about trail hunting or about traditional pre ban hunting here? The ban will never be repealed, that battle is long lost. And the way too many â€˜trailâ€™ packs are conducting themselves means that an all out ban is inevitable, itâ€™s just the timing of that which is debatable.

Itâ€™s all well and good bleating about how unfair the nasty antis are, but when some packs are regularly and intentionally violating the law, its no wonder that the antis think they still have a job to do.
		
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Probably my fault, I'm talking pre ban as I don't do any form of hunting any more. I see no point in hunting a trail.


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## Clodagh (19 November 2019)

palo1 said:



			I don't think anyone has been 'bleating' the discussion has been pretty civilised and open I think.  It might not be the right thread to have posted that clip to be fair but from someone who supports legal trail hunting and the now banned fox hunting it feels right to show that the moral high ground has NOT been taken by any one side.
		
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I agree proably side swiping what we are actually talking about. There are some perfectly nice sabs and some bloody awful hunting people.


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## Clodagh (19 November 2019)

ester said:



			I don't think it's been mentioned but the bit that sits particularly uncomfortably with me is digging out, and that bit is still legal.
		
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I think when hunting sells itself as pest control, there's no point saying you can't control the pest as it has gone home. Like going squirrel shooting but only shooting them on the ground.
Terrier work done well is a professional and well organised thing. If the aim is to kill the fox then they are needed.


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## palo1 (19 November 2019)

Clodagh said:



			I agree proably side swiping what we are actually talking about. There are some perfectly nice sabs and some bloody awful hunting people.
		
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Yes, thankfully I think we were discussing the principle of hunting with hounds (both legal trail hunting and pre-ban fox hunting) rather than the nature of those that are engaged in debate on either side.  I have friends who are very anti-hunting (we don't tend to get into discussions about it and are tactful with each other) but none of those people have ever actually been hunting; they are objecting on conscience rather than experience.  I have met some utterly ghastly people out hunting that I would never want to spend time with (and some wonderful, life long friends too)  but I would still defend the right of those people to hunt because I believe that it is a better way to deal with foxes humanely.  I think trail hunting is not quite a nonsense as it undoubtedly disrupts the fox population which is probably a good thing.  I also think it is vital that we try to maintain and hang on to that set of skills and knowledge about our countryside - I am really passionate about that in truth.


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## [139672] (19 November 2019)

I donâ€™t agree with it. The chase is, in my opinion cruel, and digging out as well. Iâ€™ve never been hunting but I used to look after liveried hunters. Also, what happens to the hounds in old age?  I donâ€™t think many could be re-homed. I knew someone who re-homed a hound. He had to send it back to the rescue centre as the hound kept escaping and running miles away.


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## ester (19 November 2019)

I'm not really sure what hunting sells itself as these days though.
I've never seen bad terrier work either so I'm not sure why the mention of professional/well organised?!

It is definitely something that comes up regularly though as people certainly assume if terrier men are still needed they are not hunting legally.


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## DressageCob (19 November 2019)

I would like to go hunting but don't for two reasons. The first is the potential to be associated with illegal activity, if they end up breaching the Hunting Act while I'm out. That could ruin my career. I'm also in the type of job that if the Daily Mail latched onto the story, I would be perfect tabloid fodder. I don't want to break the law anyway. 
The other reason is the sabs. I find them terrifying. The masks, the aggression, the anonymity etc. I just don't trust that they won't hurt my horse, as I have seen them do in the past. I also wouldn't want them slashing the tyres to the lorry so I can't get home. Again, something I have recently seen. 

I have "hunted" with a local bloodhound pack with one of my horses. It was ok, but I'm not sure I'd go again. it didn't seem to have the control of a normal hunt. There were loads of fairly novicy people with no brakes who were wobbling off left, right and centre. Some of the horses were hideously unfit and had no business being asked to do high intensity work. it's like those people thought it was just a hack with dogs or something. So that put me off. The local bloodhounds have now disbanded anyway. And the local drag hunt has a reputation for being fairly wild, so I'm not sure about that either! Since my boys have dressage as their proper "jobs" I don't want to break them on a hunting field. But the younger lad could actually do with going hunting to learn to gallop properly for eventing. 

I'm so conflicted ðŸ˜„


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## palo1 (19 November 2019)

ester said:



			I'm not really sure what hunting sells itself as these days though.
I've never seen bad terrier work either so I'm not sure why the mention of professional/well organised?!

It is definitely something that comes up regularly though as people certainly assume if terrier men are still needed they are not hunting legally.
		
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The thing is that it is perfectly legal to dig out foxes and kill them that way as long as it is humane and does not involve any hunting with more than 2 dogs.  The Wildlife Acts would act against any proven 'cruelty' (though that is utterly unrealistic tbh -who is there to decide?!!)  The two used to go together and many hunting folk felt uncomfortable about digging out though where it was required/requested by a landowner it was certainly part of the hunt.  Many huntsmen preferred to see a fox bolted and give it another chance and I have seen that happen in the old days - many a fox made a completely clean getaway and was subsequently lost.    These days terriermen help the hunt with trail laying, gates, etc and then get to do the work that they are allowed to; these are people who know where foxes are holed up and it is legal to do a number of things in that situation. Trail hunting and terriermen (or women) go together because they always have and still do even though the law is utterly disjointed and nonsensical.


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## Clodagh (19 November 2019)

ester said:



			I've never seen bad terrier work either so I'm not sure why the mention of professional/well organised?!
.
		
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Oh OK, I  assumed most people knew it could be done badly. Digging a fox is not about fun, it is about killing somethnig as quickly as possible.

I never did like bolting to hounds, I always preferred if it went to ground and landowner requested it be dug that it was just dug and shot. Making it run again is not something I supported.


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## ester (19 November 2019)

I seem to be being misunderstood rather a lot. I'm aware it is perfectly legal, pretty sure I said that, it was rather my point!

It is other people making the assumptions (and if I'm feeling up to it I will refute them) not me, I was just describing a situation that happens with the view of the general public (and public perception matters). I know exactly what everyone is doing on the field and all the legalities behind various activities and I don't think I indicated I didn't and needed a lengthy explanation.


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## Bernster (19 November 2019)

Hmm, based on this it seems Iâ€™ve been out with ahem less good trail packs and very lucky with the drag hunt pack!


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## Clodagh (19 November 2019)

ester said:



			I seem to be being misunderstood rather a lot. I'm aware it is perfectly legal, pretty sure I said that, it was rather my point!

It is other people making the assumptions (and if I'm feeling up to it I will refute them) not me, I was just describing a situation that happens with the view of the general public (and public perception matters). I know exactly what everyone is doing on the field and all the legalities behind various activities and I don't think I indicated I didn't and needed a lengthy explanation.
		
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Sorry!


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## The Fuzzy Furry (19 November 2019)

Bernster said:



			Hmm, based on this it seems Iâ€™ve been out with ahem less good trail packs and very lucky with the drag hunt pack!
		
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If you have been out with my most local trail pack, (who I wouldn't return to, ever) then I'd agree that they are definitely 'less good', not anything as bad as the K'wick who have always had a pretty ropey reputation as long as I can recall,  but some days they are very much less good....


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## VoR (20 November 2019)

Smogul said:



			I am confused. If you want to control an animal population, surely you kill off the healthy ones before they reproduce? Nature will get rid of the weak and sick.
		
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If you kill off the healthy ones to control the population and then nature 'takes care' of the weak and sick, wouldn't that lead to extinction?

I have only hunted post ban and for a number of reasons I am not doing so at present, maybe never again.

Is hunting out-dated, maybe, is it an effective means of population control, I'm not 100% convinced the only thing I would say is that shooting of foxes has increased in our area and there is no 'selection' of which foxes get shot, healthy, sick, it's all the same and in large numbers on occasions, yes the fox problem is becoming more urban based and many urban foxes are not very healthy it seems to me (too many in close proximity, unnatural diet, and so on I assume) so perhaps that is where the control should focus? Should hunting continue? My concern if not is what happens to jobs linked to hunting (and there are many not directly linked) and also the hounds and horses involved? Would there be a mass euthanising of the hounds in particular which are difficult to domesticate and horses, well there already seems to be an 'over-stocking' of these in this country as far as I see?

The hunting act (as admitted by those that put it in place) is a poor piece of legislation aimed more at class than animal welfare, despite the fact that, whilst there are 'Toffs' (sic) that hunt, the vast majority are just ordinary people. 

Do hunts break the law, of course, it has been proven, do sabs break the law, yes, of course! If hunting is banned where the 'animal rights' factions (and I do believe some have this at heart although from experience there are many who see this as a class war, I could quote things said to me whilst hunting) go next? Shooting, fishing, other equine sports, dog racing, etc, etc, etc. I have even seen it written that they would like all horse riding banned as it is cruel....


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## ester (20 November 2019)

Clodagh said:



			Sorry!
		
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thanks, I was having a bit of a stress head yesterday which didn't help!


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## dreamerinreallife (20 November 2019)

Wow!  Thank you all so so much for what has, on the whole, been a very reasoned and rational discussion.  I was worried when I first posted to be honest but it has been great to read mdifferent viewpoints and opinions (and I have learned loads!)

I am still very much on the fence but I like to hear differing views (in a friendly and respectful manner)

I have learned a lot about trail and drag hunting which as far as I know we don't have up here.  All packs are about fox control so that is the only experience I have.  How nice to see a reasoned debate/discussion without it going down the rude and disrespectful route which subjects like this often do!


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## planete (20 November 2019)

Animal behaviour is dictated by instinct.  Human behaviour is also driven by instinct but should be tempered by reason.  If we agree that killing animals is necessary we should use the most humane and most effective strategy available at any given time.  Respect for the quarry, not killing for fun, is a must if we have any hope of being ethical.  As I said before, the various instances of vile behaviour that mar the activities of some hunts mean that I have lost any liking for the whole business.  I also love greyhounds and used to love watching them race but I now also agree there is so much abuse in the industry it needs to be banned.  Same breeding ground for animal abuse for me. Tradition has often been a great justification /cover up for abuse I am afraid.

We need to have in place humane, planned culling of all species without natural predators like deer, foxes and badgers.  Traditional methods served us well for a long time but we have now reached 'critical mass' in all sorts of areas, including human population, unbalanced numbers of many wild species and polarised opinions without scientific backing.  Discarding sentimentality, it might help to take a fresh look at what actually works and is acceptable.  A sensible national policy, well implemented and science backed laws for wildlife management with hard consequences for infringement would seem a way forward but are unfortunately pie in the sky right now.  The picture is bigger than a for or against fox hunting with hounds.

This brings to mind the New Forest 'directive' asking people not to pick mushrooms as they are being decimated by commercial pickers.  It is totally ineffective and many pickers come from other EU countries.  Asked if they would do this in their native nature reserves a couple said:  "Of course not, our nature reserves are patrolled by armed guards".  Not sure about armed guards but what would convince people to really do their best for our fauna and flora?


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## Ranyhyn (22 November 2019)

A great post. I wrote and rewrote a response but utlimately I just agree wholeheartedly.  Its a hard one.

One think I do know without a doubt though is that I dont want to see hunting dissapear.


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## mini_b (22 November 2019)

Agreed this was a good un - been lurking as Iâ€™m truly on the fence with this.


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## Tiddlypom (23 November 2019)

Another hour of blocked road bedlam here out in the sticks where nothing normally happens.

Hunt + antis (lots of) + â€˜hunt safety officersâ€™ + police + bewildered members of the public +  a horse box stuck on a muddy verge on a blind bend + our poor Sainsburys delivery driver. And us.

Madness.

Apparently the local pack are genuinely trail hunting this season, which may be true. I hope it is, but they have said that before...


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## palo1 (24 November 2019)

That is frustrating!  Why on earth don't people check where to park? Our secretary always makes it very clear where it is and isn't appropriate to park. There isn't an excuse for blocking road with horse vehicles!!   On the other hand, the presence of monitors and antis can seriously derail people's plans and intentions.  I understand why people feel it may be needed to have hunt monitors/hunt 'safety' officers but a lot of hunting people feel genuinely intimidated by even the most benign hunt monitor as there is so much 'feed' about threatening behaviour - especially when accompanied by people with covered faces.   Sadly, some of the antis that come into direct contact with hunts really don't do themselves any favours.  Can you imagine any other legal activity where vigilantes/self styled 'monitors' would be tolerated by the public or the police?  (I do know that the police are often caught in the middle and cannot do right for doing wrong).   That is not what this thread is about of course but as it was mentioned...!


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## Sandstone1 (25 November 2019)

palo1 said:



			That is frustrating!  Why on earth don't people check where to park? Our secretary always makes it very clear where it is and isn't appropriate to park. There isn't an excuse for blocking road with horse vehicles!!   On the other hand, the presence of monitors and antis can seriously derail people's plans and intentions.  I understand why people feel it may be needed to have hunt monitors/hunt 'safety' officers but a lot of hunting people feel genuinely intimidated by even the most benign hunt monitor as there is so much 'feed' about threatening behaviour - especially when accompanied by people with covered faces.   Sadly, some of the antis that come into direct contact with hunts really don't do themselves any favours.  Can you imagine any other legal activity where vigilantes/self styled 'monitors' would be tolerated by the public or the police?  (I do know that the police are often caught in the middle and cannot do right for doing wrong).   That is not what this thread is about of course but as it was mentioned...!
		
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On the other side of the argument though hunt monitors wouldn't be needed if hunting was carried out within the law.    Often it isnt.  That's a fact in afraid.
if it was truly being done within the law why worry about hunt monitors?
If nothing is being done illegally then there is no cause for concern?
Yes I'm aware hunt monitors are not angels but neither are hunt staff and followers.
It's the weak and unenforceable law at fault im afraid and in my opinion the only sensible thing is a complete ban.
whether that ever happens is anyone's guess with the government in such a mess.


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## LKWilliams (25 November 2019)

Sandstone1 said:



			On the other side of the argument though hunt monitors wouldn't be needed if hunting was carried out within the law.    Often it isnt.  That's a fact in afraid.
if it was truly being done within the law why worry about hunt monitors?
If nothing is being done illegally then there is no cause for concern?
Yes I'm aware hunt monitors are not angels but neither are hunt staff and followers.
It's the weak and unenforceable law at fault im afraid and in my opinion the only sensible thing is a complete ban.
whether that ever happens is anyone's guess with the government in such a mess.
		
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Hunt 'monitors' shouldn't be needed anyway. Its utterly terrifying I'm a young lady who goes hunting alone, when I have to park further afield due to limited parking I'm always worried; are they going to cause me and my horse trouble whilst unboxing, mounting and hacking; are they going to cause trouble to my lorry like letting down the tyres. They might catch me getting back at dusk; masked men are intimidating to me. I should not feel uncomfortable going hunting on my own. They wouldn't be allowed to walk round a town like that. Hunting is most definitly a lifestyle and I shouldn't be punished for it. We have always wanted a hunt meet at our house but don't because the 'monitors' would know we are keen hunt supporters and god knows whether they would come protesting about hunting and the fact we live on a beef farm. There is no excuse for that type of behaviour at all. 

I understand why antis want to protest and are against hunting; everyone can have an opinion. But protesting with faces covered and on private property is not the way to do it. Our views will not be changed; my parents have always supported the hunt, hounds have always ran over my partners families land for centuries and they are a very keen hunting family. 

The more they protest the harder we want to hunt. I do not believe in an outright ban and would be devastated to see hunting lost in history.


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## Equine_Dream (25 November 2019)

LKWilliams said:



			Hunt 'monitors' shouldn't be needed anyway. Its utterly terrifying I'm a young lady who goes hunting alone, when I have to park further afield due to limited parking I'm always worried; are they going to cause me and my horse trouble whilst unboxing, mounting and hacking; are they going to cause trouble to my lorry like letting down the tyres. They might catch me getting back at dusk; masked men are intimidating to me. I should not feel uncomfortable going hunting on my own. They wouldn't be allowed to walk round a town like that. Hunting is most definitly a lifestyle and I shouldn't be punished for it. We have always wanted a hunt meet at our house but don't because the 'monitors' would know we are keen hunt supporters and god knows whether they would come protesting about hunting and the fact we live on a beef farm. There is no excuse for that type of behaviour at all.

I understand why antis want to protest and are against hunting; everyone can have an opinion. But protesting with faces covered and on private property is not the way to do it. Our views will not be changed; my parents have always supported the hunt, hounds have always ran over my partners families land for centuries and they are a very keen hunting family.

The more they protest the harder we want to hunt. I do not believe in an outright ban and would be devastated to see hunting lost in history.
		
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Totally agree. They are nothing short of thugs. Regardless of whether you agree with hunting or not it is the job of the police to uphold the law, not a group of trespassing vigilantes. The things I have witnessed them say to women and young children is nothing short of vile. The way they try to terrify horses and kick out at hounds - and they claim to be animal lovers!?!
I hold no respect for them whatsoever.


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## Sandstone1 (25 November 2019)

Equine_Dream said:



			Totally agree. They are nothing short of thugs. Regardless of whether you agree with hunting or not it is the job of the police to uphold the law, not a group of trespassing vigilantes. The things I have witnessed them say to women and young children is nothing short of vile. The way they try to terrify horses and kick out at hounds - and they claim to be animal lovers!?!
I hold no respect for them whatsoever.
		
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But if hunts insist on hunting illegally what do you suggest?  The police are not going to go across the countryside to watch foxes being dug out are they?
Yes I'm sure there are faults on both sides but if it was not for hunt monitors hunts would just continue to hunt as they did before the ban.


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## Equine_Dream (25 November 2019)

Sandstone1 said:



			But if hunts insist on hunting illegally what do you suggest?  The police are not going to go across the countryside to watch foxes being dug out are they?
Yes I'm sure there are faults on both sides but if it was not for hunt monitors hunts would just continue to hunt as they did before the ban.
		
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I don't have the answer but dressing up as masked terrorists and forming vigilante gangs is most certainly NOT the answer. It would not be tolerated in towns so why on earth is it tolerated in the countryside?


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## Equine_Dream (25 November 2019)

Also if monitors just stuck to monitoring i.e. not trespassing or intimidating women children and horses alike, I don't think there would be such an issue.


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## LKWilliams (25 November 2019)

It is still not up to the sabs to monitor hunt activity. They just harass people, I certainly wouldnt want to take my child hunting with masked men shouting at me. 

It shouldn't be tolerated. 
If people want to protest then they should do but not violently and not with their faces covered


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## Sandstone1 (25 November 2019)

But chasing animals for miles before allowing dogs to rip them apart wouldn't be tolerated either.  Or digging animals out of their earth before throwing them to the hounds.
If the hunt monitors didn't trespass they wouldn't see some of the stuff that does go on.


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## LKWilliams (25 November 2019)

I just dont agree with the violence and language used towards women and children. Its utterly disgusting, having respect for people is a basic thing. But as a young lady I do not appreciate being called a Sl*g or B*tch. Its not nice, I always worry about being injured by them


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## Equine_Dream (25 November 2019)

Sandstone1 said:



			But chasing animals for miles before allowing dogs to rip them apart wouldn't be tolerated either.  Or digging animals out of their earth before throwing them to the hounds.
If the hunt monitors didn't trespass they wouldn't see some of the stuff that does go on.
		
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Again that is down to the police to monitor. Not a group of masked thugs. Where do we draw the line? What would happen to society if we all took it up ourselves to uphold the law? If the police are not doing their part that is a separate issue entirely. It does not excuse people to act like animals and thugs and break further laws in the process.


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## ycbm (25 November 2019)

I don't agree with the verbal and physical violence, but until ALL hunts make more effort to hunt within the *spirit* of of the law and openly condemn those which don't,  it will continue.

There is absolutely no excuse that I can see after more than fifteen years of ban for trail hunts to be catching more fox than drag packs.

If you know your efforts to make trail hunting more like real hunting than drag hunting is resulting in foxes being caught, then you should change how you lay trails.

And until you do, the sabbing will continue. The choice is yours.

.


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## Tiddlypom (25 November 2019)

palo1 said:



			That is frustrating! Why on earth don't people check where to park? Our secretary always makes it very clear where it is and isn't appropriate to park. There isn't an excuse for blocking road with horse vehicles!!
		
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The lorry didnâ€™t fully block the road, only partially. However, it was parked in between two bends which are about 100m apart, so visibility was very restricted. If anyone remembers a thread that I posted back in the summer about nearly being rear ended by a driving school car on a blind bend whilst hacking, it was there.

The lorry parked there in the early afternoon, it must have been a prearranged second horses changeover/collect horses meet up for those who were finishing for the day. At the time it was the only hunt vehicle around, so it had the pick of much more suitable places to park. The hunt secretary was one of those whose horse was involved... 

The palaver of off loading horses, loading horses, oh whoops weâ€™re stuck, off load horses, get towed off the verge, load horses back on again did stuff the road up for much longer than was necessary. The police directed the traffic past it.


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## Equine_Dream (25 November 2019)

There is absolutely no excuse that I can see after more than fifteen years of ban for trail hunts to be catching more fox than drag packs.

If you know your efforts to make trail hunting more like real hunting than drag hunting is resulting in foxes being caught, then you should change how you lay trails.

And until you do, the sabbing will continue. The choice is yours.

.
		
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Sabbing will continue regardless. I don't believe for one second these thugs care about protecting animals. I 100% believe what we are dealing with is a class war. If it is about animal welfare why do hunts like ours continue to suffer abuse at the hands of sabs when we have not caught a fox for years? We are completely transparent about laying trails. Yet we continue to get abuse?


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## Tiddlypom (25 November 2019)

There are various types of anti. The monitors do just what it says on the tin, they passively monitor. IMHO that is fine, as if you are doing nothing wrong, you have nothing to hide.

The sabs actively try to disrupt the hunt with false horn calls and spraying scent blocking stuff around. They tend to mask up and shout abuse much more. They were the ones that I saw at the w/e, and they seemed pretty damn organised.

I think that my local pack will be thinking wistfully back to the time when they were â€˜onlyâ€™ monitored. They now have the sabs  on them and they are a very different entity, and much more scary.


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## LKWilliams (25 November 2019)

I think its awful that they shout at children, ive seen them upset many.

If they cared about animals they wouldnt scare the horses or kick hounds.

I completely agree that in most cases it is a class war.


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## ycbm (25 November 2019)

Equine_Dream said:



			Sabbing will continue regardless. I don't believe for one second these thugs care about protecting animals. I 100% believe what we are dealing with is a class war. If it is about animal welfare why do hunts like ours continue to suffer abuse at the hands of sabs when we have not caught a fox for years? We are completely transparent about laying trails. Yet we continue to get abuse?
		
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I don't think it will. Drag hunts are not sabbed.  if hunting foxes ends I think  they will move on to shooting and fishing.

You continue to get abuse because other trail hunts are hunting fox and while they continue to do that you will all be sabbed.

Has your hunt openly criticised the ones which are hunting fox?  Because it's well known inside the hunting community and I'm not aware of any hunt reporting another to the police for breaking the law.


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## palo1 (25 November 2019)

Sandstone1 said:



			But chasing animals for miles before allowing dogs to rip them apart wouldn't be tolerated either.  Or digging animals out of their earth before throwing them to the hounds.
If the hunt monitors didn't trespass they wouldn't see some of the stuff that does go on.
		
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Have you been trailhunting Sandstone?  Have you been out with a gunman or other person who is wanting to control foxes?


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## palo1 (25 November 2019)

Tiddlypom said:



			The lorry didnâ€™t fully block the road, only partially. However, it was parked in between two bends which are about 100m apart, so visibility was very restricted. If anyone remembers a thread that I posted back in the summer about nearly being rear ended by a driving school car on a blind bend whilst hacking, it was there.

The lorry parked there in the early afternoon, it must have been a prearranged second horses changeover/collect horses meet up for those who were finishing for the day. At the time it was the only hunt vehicle around, so it had the pick of much more suitable places to park. The hunt secretary was one of those whose horse was involved...

The palaver of off loading horses, loading horses, oh whoops weâ€™re stuck, off load horses, get towed off the verge, load horses back on again did stuff the road up for much longer than was necessary. The police directed the traffic past it.
		
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Blimey - that must have been a right pain!


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## palo1 (25 November 2019)

ycbm said:



			I don't think it will. Drag hunts are not sabbed.  if hunting foxes ends I think  they will move on to shooting and fishing.

You continue to get abuse because other trail hunts are hunting fox and while they continue to do that you will all be sabbed.

Has your hunt openly criticised the ones which are hunting fox?  Because it's well known inside the hunting community and I'm not aware of any hunt reporting another to the police for breaking the law.
		
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Once the sabs have sabbed shooting and fishing to extinction then, what will they do next? Obviously racing could be a target although probably too much money/too many vested interests for masked and abusive people at race meetings to be tolerated but where would they go??  Possibly all equestrian sport, pet ownership, obviously animal farming, zoos etc will become a target.  Trail hunting is legal and should be treated like other legal activities - there are very, very few convictions under the Hunting Act and more people than ever going out trail, drag and bloodhound hunting. For some reason people love to fantasise about the extent of illegal fox hunting they believe is happening; I see it as a proxy class war OR (in my area anyway where hunting is much more of a working class thing) emblematic of the rural/urban divide.  It completely encapsulates, for me the lack of understanding and involvement in rural matters and the very sad distancing of urban communities (and those that move to the countryside) from our rural cultural roots.  It is upsetting and insulting to hear, on a regular basis that because I take part in a legal activity, that I must be lying or dissembling; that I must be deluded and a vicious, sadistic individual.  Is this true of everyone who goes out hunting??  Really?   Monitoring hunts is fine, sabbing is not and there isn't a place in a decent democracy for that in any discussion; whatever you believe is right or wrong, in this country it is NOT acceptable to mask up and abuse people who must be presumed innocent unless proven guilty.


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## Equine_Dream (25 November 2019)

ycbm said:



			I don't think it will. Drag hunts are not sabbed.  if hunting foxes ends I think  they will move on to shooting and fishing.

You continue to get abuse because other trail hunts are hunting fox and while they continue to do that you will all be sabbed.

Has your hunt openly criticised the ones which are hunting fox?  Because it's well known inside the hunting community and I'm not aware of any hunt reporting another to the police for breaking the law.
		
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I'm afraid we will have to agree to disagree on this point. I don't think for one minute these people do it for the love of animals. If they did, they would not actively try to frighten horses and kick out at hounds and harass hunts that, if they did their research, they would know they have not caught foxes for years. I have seen far too much to make me believe otherwise I'm afraid.

Our hunt would have no issue with peaceful monitoring as we have nothing to hide. However violent bullies will not be tolerated.


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## spacefaer (25 November 2019)

Drag hunts are sabbed.  So are bloodhound packs.  
The antis are also sabbing perfectly legal shoots.  Just because they may not agree with shooting does not give them the right to trespass onto private land and disrupt legal activities. 
There will always be sabbing as long as the big 'animal welfare ' groups continue to have the funds to pay them.


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## ycbm (25 November 2019)

spacefaer said:



			Drag hunts are sabbed.  S.
		
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When I have challenged this assertion in the past, the only incident anybody has ever been able to produce any evidence of is a decades old case of mistaken identity.  I drag hunted for years and have been out with  four different packs and I've never seen a sab in my life. And the meets are fully publicised, it wouldn't be difficult to find them.

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## ycbm (25 November 2019)

palo1 said:



			Once the sabs have sabbed shooting and fishing to extinction then, what will they do next? Obviously racing could be a target although probably too much money/too many vested interests for masked and abusive people at race meetings to be tolerated but where would they go??  Possibly all equestrian sport, pet ownership, obviously animal farming, zoos etc will become a target.  Trail hunting is legal and should be treated like other legal activities - there are very, very few convictions under the Hunting Act and more people than ever going out trail, drag and bloodhound hunting. For some reason people love to fantasise about the extent of illegal fox hunting they believe is happening; I see it as a proxy class war OR (in my area anyway where hunting is much more of a working class thing) emblematic of the rural/urban divide.  It completely encapsulates, for me the lack of understanding and involvement in rural matters and the very sad distancing of urban communities (and those that move to the countryside) from our rural cultural roots.  It is upsetting and insulting to hear, on a regular basis that because I take part in a legal activity, that I must be lying or dissembling; that I must be deluded and a vicious, sadistic individual.  Is this true of everyone who goes out hunting??  Really?   Monitoring hunts is fine, sabbing is not and there isn't a place in a decent democracy for that in any discussion; whatever you believe is right or wrong, in this country it is NOT acceptable to mask up and abuse people who must be presumed innocent unless proven guilty.
		
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I think you're absolutely correct in your prediction of the future. The days when humans believe that they have a basic right to obtain enjoyment by using animals are numbered.

I'm personally glad I got to ride before that happens, but I have little doubt that it will.

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## ycbm (25 November 2019)

if they did their research, they would know they have not caught foxes for years..
		
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How?


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## spacefaer (25 November 2019)

ycbm said:



			When I have challenged this assertion in the past, the only incident anybody has ever been able to produce any evidence of is a decades old case of mistaken identity.  I drag hunted for years and have been out with  four different packs and I've never seen a sab in my life. And the meets are fully publicised, it wouldn't be difficult to find them..
		
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A cursory google takes two seconds to bring up this report. I have friends who hunt with the drag down in the South East - they say that sabs actually run with the hounds (impressively fit) and attempt to disrupt the day regardless of the quarry

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...y-farmers-draghounds-hunt-saboteurs-89b9vp9td


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## ycbm (25 November 2019)

Fair enough. I cant speak for the south except one meet. The report is seven years old though.

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## Equine_Dream (25 November 2019)

ycbm said:



			How?
		
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As I say we would welcome peaceful monitors to join us on foot or on horse if they wish. 
However my experience has taught me they are not interested in the truth. Far too preoccupied with bullying women and children in my experience.


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## palo1 (25 November 2019)

ycbm said:



			I don't agree with the verbal and physical violence, but until ALL hunts make more effort to hunt within the *spirit* of of the law and openly condemn those which don't,  it will continue.


ycbm said:



			I think you're absolutely correct in your prediction of the future. The days when humans believe that they have a basic right to obtain enjoyment by using animals are numbered.

I'm personally glad I got to ride before that happens, but I have little doubt that it will.

.
		
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I don't actually know anyone (other than the occasional fundamentalist Christian) that believes they have 'a basic right to obtain enjoyment by using animals...' Other than those fundamentalist Christians (who I only know because of meeting them at the school gates on a regular basis) completely understands that a relationship with an animal is NOT a right.   Do you truly believe that this is how people who have animals or visit zoos, farm parks or keep animals feel?  

Not everyone treats animals how I might hope but even the hardest of hill farmers here knows it is a privelage to keep animals and most of those hill farmers would rather go hungry themselves than see their animals suffer in their eyes. The fact that possibly farming of animals at all is contentious doesn't automatically mean that those people feel they have this 'basic right'.  The same goes for so many things - having children, keeping pets, etc etc.  I just think you are making a wild assumption here in order to strengthen your position on hunting (which is legal as long as carried out within the law).  There seems to be an absolute assumption that all trail hunting is either carried out illegally or with a tacit approval to illegality.  That is like saying that everyone going to the pub is going to drink.  Drink driving is illegal so anyone driving home from the pub is driving illegally and that anyone else in the pub is tacitly approving of drink driving.  

As it happens I do wonder why rural vigilantes don't hang round the pub more often - drink driving kills more people than illegal hunting will ever kill foxes I reckon!
		
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## spacefaer (25 November 2019)

ycbm said:



			Fair enough. I cant speak for the south except one meet. The report is seven years old though..
		
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Ironically exactly 2 years ago - 25th November 2017


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## Sandstone1 (25 November 2019)

palo1 said:



			Have you been trailhunting Sandstone?  Have you been out with a gunman or other person who is wanting to control foxes?
		
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I've been hunting years ago before the ban and decided it wasn't for me.


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## palo1 (25 November 2019)

That is absolutely fair enough Sandstone1.  You may feel it is semantics but scent hunting by fox hounds is not at all the same as 'being chased for miles...' The scientific evidence demonstrates that foxes continue to act out normal behaviours during the course of a hunt unless hounds are very close whereupon it may well be a chase but never for miles - either hounds are upon a fox or he slips away.  That is irrelevant now of course.


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## ponyparty (25 November 2019)

I've been lurking on this thread for ages now, not commenting because everything i would say has already been said by palo1! And probably much more eloquently than i would have put it; plus, with vastly greater experience of hunting than I have. I've only been out once autumn hunting and once main season, mounted, have foot followed a fair few more times. I was brought up in the city mainly, although have ties to to the countryside. It saddens me also to think that one day hunting could be consigned to the history books - it evokes a feeling in me like no other that I can describe. My peers, old school friends, work colleagues etc are almost all vehemently anti; although not one of them has ever been hunting or knows anything about it apart from anti propaganda. 

I absolutely agree that if hunting is banned outright, they'll be onto the next thing. Where it stops depends on the level of animal rights extremism. I wish the AR lot would concentrate more on where real suffering is happening. Puppy farming, horses being left to starve to death in fields or getting so fat they are crippled with laminitis, non-stun ritual slaughter... all things that seemingly go unnoticed by the AR brigade. These things are rife, in huge numbers, and/or cause prolonged suffering over days/weeks/months/years. So where are all the masked protesters and thugs sorting that out? Doesn't make sense to me. They could harness their power to much greater effect and save so many animals. But it's just not "sexy" enough, or won't garner enough public support, or is just too much damned effort - much easier to target a hunt going about its lawful business.


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## ycbm (25 November 2019)

spacefaer said:



			Ironically exactly 2 years ago - 25th November 2017
		
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Profuse apologies, I have no idea how I misread that date ðŸ˜¡


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## Tiddlypom (25 November 2019)

palo1 said:



			Blimey - that must have been a right pain!
		
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Iâ€™ve only just realised that a police motorbike is parked across the road in front of the Land Rover to block through traffic, presumably while the horsebox was dealt with. The police motorbiker can be seen in the distance wearing a white helmet. There also 3 police cars present. The police were brilliant, very fair. They asked the sabs to pull their face coverings down.

I was just an onlooker getting suspicious looks from both the pro hunt lot and the sabs, and there were loads of sabs.


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## palo1 (25 November 2019)

I don't actually know anyone (other than the occasional fundamentalist Christian) that believes they have 'a basic right to obtain enjoyment by using animals...' Other than those fundamentalist Christians (who I only know because of meeting them at the school gates on a regular basis) completely understands that a relationship with an animal is NOT a right. Do you truly believe that this is how people who have animals or visit zoos, farm parks or keep animals feel?

Not everyone treats animals how I might hope but even the hardest of hill farmers here knows it is a privelage to keep animals and most of those hill farmers would rather go hungry themselves than see their animals suffer in their eyes. The fact that possibly farming of animals at all is contentious doesn't automatically mean that those people feel they have this 'basic right'. The same goes for so many things - having children, keeping pets, etc etc. I just think you are making a wild assumption here in order to strengthen your position on hunting (which is legal as long as carried out within the law). There seems to be an absolute assumption that all trail hunting is either carried out illegally or with a tacit approval to illegality. That is like saying that everyone going to the pub is going to drink. Drink driving is illegal so anyone driving home from the pub is driving illegally and that anyone else in the pub is tacitly approving of drink driving.

As it happens I do wonder why rural vigilantes don't hang round the pub more often - drink driving kills more people than illegal hunting will ever kill foxes I reckon!



Read more at https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/...-on-hunting.782561/page-4#EWH6ouGtoseF7rfs.99


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## Tiddlypom (26 November 2019)

palo1, it must be very frustrating if you hunt with a pack which is genuinely doing its best to hunt within the law to be tarred with the brush of those who arenâ€™t.

The trouble is that all packs insist that they are trail hunting legally, and only some of them mean it.

My view is coloured because my local pack was insisting that it was hunting legally when it most certainly wasnâ€™t. This is a fairly posh pack. It was the pressure of the antis which has forced them to reform and start trail hunting this season, as some major landowners said that they had to clean up their act or they would no longer be allowed on their land. Unfortunately though I think they are now genuinely trying to trail hunt, the sabs are still on them and covering every move, and every time hounds go into cry on a trail the sabs insist they are after a fox and disrupt them. Itâ€™s a horrible situation, but it is of their own making.

ETA Are the sabs aware that this pack is now trail hunting within the law? Yes, almost certainly they are, but IMHO they are now gunning for this pack anyway.


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## Sandstone1 (26 November 2019)

I don't agree with the masks and violence.  Although from watching some recent videos the violence is on both sides on occasions.
I think that there really does need to be close monitoring of hunts as it has been shown on lots of occasions that illegal hunting is going on.
Someone has to keep a close eye on this as the police dont.
If hunts don't do anything wrong they have no need to worry.
Can it honestly be said that all hunts are working within the law?
I really do think that a complete ban is the way it will go.
If people want to keep hunting then maybe they should do so within the law.
This will as ever just keep going round in circles so I'm out of this conversation as don't want to get in to long drawn out arguments.


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## ycbm (26 November 2019)

palo1 said:



			I don't actually know anyone (other than the occasional fundamentalist Christian) that believes they have 'a basic right to obtain enjoyment by using animals...' Other than those fundamentalist Christians (who I only know because of meeting them at the school gates on a regular basis) completely understands that a relationship with an animal is NOT a right. Do you truly believe that this is how people who have animals or visit zoos, farm parks or keep animals feel?

Not everyone treats animals how I might hope but even the hardest of hill farmers here knows it is a privelage to keep animals and most of those hill farmers would rather go hungry themselves than see their animals suffer in their eyes. The fact that possibly farming of animals at all is contentious doesn't automatically mean that those people feel they have this 'basic right'. The same goes for so many things - having children, keeping pets, etc etc. I just think you are making a wild assumption here in order to strengthen your position on hunting (which is legal as long as carried out within the law). There seems to be an absolute assumption that all trail hunting is either carried out illegally or with a tacit approval to illegality. That is like saying that everyone going to the pub is going to drink. Drink driving is illegal so anyone driving home from the pub is driving illegally and that anyone else in the pub is tacitly approving of drink driving.

As it happens I do wonder why rural vigilantes don't hang round the pub more often - drink driving kills more people than illegal hunting will ever kill foxes I reckon!



Read more at https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/...-on-hunting.782561/page-4#EWH6ouGtoseF7rfs.99

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You may not know anyone who goes around saying they have 'dominion over animals' as per the bible, but we live lives that are simply saturated with that entitlement. We eat animals for the pleasure of it when we can do perfectly well without, we ride horses without even thinking about whether it might be wrong to do that, we castrate males of many species to make them easier to keep as pets or livestock, we remove many types of animal we define as vermin because they are in the wrong place for us,  the list is endless. 

I'm not saying that I think any of this is wrong, but there are certainly other people who are questioning it, and I can see a future where it becomes the accepted viewpoint. 





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## palo1 (26 November 2019)

Thanks Tiddlypom and Sandstone1 - I think, possibly not arguments but discussion and debate over issues are really helpful even when frustrating!  I do accept that it is extraordinarily difficult to identify when a pack is hunting legally.  But under the law it is legal to trailhunt.  Hounds noses are extraordinary and just because one hound picks up a line, it doesn't mean that it is always exactly where you might expect; long, long experience tells me though that hounds don't lie - scent carries incredibly variously so you might be watching and think 'No way is that the line' but depending on conditions, it may well be.  Hounds just take a line where they find it - they will look for the best or strongest but if it is good enough they will take it!!    A huntsman may not know for a few minutes if they are 'correct' and decent houndwork should leave them to sort themselves out and not constantly be told where to look and what to do.  Under the ban it is tempting for huntsmen and whips to be anxious to not only make sure hounds are exactly where they should be but also to be seen to be where others 'think' they 'should' be.  For most traditional hunting people however that approach is anathema to both the innate nature of hounds and the skill of the huntsman and it takes confidence, trust and hard work all round to have a pack of hounds that will work for themselves.  That is why many hunting people feel passionate about trail hunting rather than the much more predictable 'open' lines of the drag hunt which is much more for the riders than for houndwork; there is great passion for the talent of the hounds and the only way that can really be preserved is for the lines of a trailhunt to be as realistic as possible.  Our traillayers work incredible (ridiculously at times) hard to make trails that will work the hounds as they should be and of course, other than quite vague information will absolutely NOT tell the huntsman where those trails are laid.  That, and the way that hounds are means that sometimes the line that hounds take looks 'wrong' (i.e through undrideable coverts etc).

It has completely mystified me for many years how antis who don't work with hounds have any idea whatsoever whether hounds are on a trail or on the 'wrong' line.  As someone who loves houndwork and knows individual hounds I don't always know what they are thinking or trying to work out so how on earth do the antis/sabs when they are not only often disrupting things but also don't know hounds very well?  If antis disturb foxes in a covert or disturb hounds working on a particular line then hounds move in the 'wrong' direction who is really to blame?


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## palo1 (26 November 2019)

ycbm said:



			You may not know anyone who goes around saying they have 'dominion over animals' as per the bible, but we live lives that are simply saturated with that entitlement. We eat animals for the pleasure of it when we can do perfectly well without, we ride horses without even thinking about whether it might be wrong to do that, we castrate males of many species to make them easier to keep as pets or livestock, we remove many types of animal we define as vermin because they are in the wrong place for us,  the list is endless.

I'm not saying that I think any of this is wrong, but there are certainly other people who are questioning it, and I can see a future where it becomes the accepted viewpoint.





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You are right in that I don't know anyone who actually says that they have 'dominion over animals' but I do know of people who say that animals were put on this earth for us to use.  I agree that we need to question our relationship and attitude to animals and in fact all of nature - that is vital for the future.  I very much hope we will see a future where our place in nature is far more balanced than currently.


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## ester (26 November 2019)

Re the police donâ€™t on a sab fb page that was linked to there were plenty of police out including on quads and they were still complaining because the police were obviously complicit and just having a day on their expensive toys so they canâ€™t win!


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## Equine_Dream (26 November 2019)

Sandstone1 said:



			I don't agree with the masks and violence.  Although from watching some recent videos the violence is on both sides on occasions.
I think that there really does need to be close monitoring of hunts as it has been shown on lots of occasions that illegal hunting is going on.
Someone has to keep a close eye on this as the police dont.
If hunts don't do anything wrong they have no need to worry.
Can it honestly be said that all hunts are working within the law?
I really do think that a complete ban is the way it will go.
If people want to keep hunting then maybe they should do so within the law.
This will as ever just keep going round in circles so I'm out of this conversation as don't want to get in to long drawn out arguments.
		
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You are right that this argument just goes round and round in circles. Sabs cry outrage and claim illegal hunting. Hunts cry that sabs are harassing and causing disruption. Both sides clearly detest each other.
A compromise would be that hunts are more open with their activities and allow peaceful monitoring to be carried out. However that's what it must be; PEACEFUL i.e. no masks no harassment, no name calling, no intimidation, no violence whatsoever (on both sides), and MONITORING i.e no interference with hounds or lines.
If hunts are illegally hunting then it will soon come to light, and those that are following the law will not endure the endless harassment from sabs.
However we both know this will never happen as neither side will back down. I really fear for the future of hunting and other outdoor pursuits. Once hunting has gone they will no doubt turn their attention elsewhere.


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## TGM (26 November 2019)

Clodagh said:



			It just isn't the same...and I know that sounds like the ultimate cop out reply. Bloodhounds or drag you may as well just go cross country schooling, but get drunk first if you like. There is no interest or skill, you don't need to see a hound, it's just gallop...stop...drink...gallop.
Watching a good huntsman hunting a pack of hounds (am taking BITD when I used to go) is totally different, the skill and forethought and how the three species involed in the hunt work together. (as in the human, hound and horse).
		
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I know nothing about drag hunting, but your description does not fit my experience of bloodhounding at all!  Granted, our family have the good fortune to go out with a pack whose huntsman has 30 years experience of hunting bloodhounds.  There is a huge amount of skill involved on his behalf, and it is amazing to watch the relationship he has with his hounds.  Whilst as with any pack there are some that are just out to jump and gallop, there are a lot who actually do love to see the hounds work as well.


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## palo1 (26 November 2019)

I do have hope for the future of hunting and other things Equine_Dream  I think that as everyone has to become much more aware of the need to manage climate change far more effectively and perhaps use nature less selfishly and intensively there will be a renewed understanding of the place that 'field sports' (how I hate that term!!) may have in the future.  I feel optimistic about this, not because of the current situation but because I feel that people won't endlessly tolerate the kind of extremist behaviour we now see and that as more people feel the debate about use of nature is valid to them there may be greater clarity achieved and hopefully less entrenched positions taken.  I also feel optimistic because organisations that I see as forward thinking (some rewilding organisations for example) absolutely recognise the potential of hunting etc within a more balanced system that works FOR nature.  There are many distractions of course (like Chris Packham...), many vested interests and huge amounts of ignorance but I still think that if you look from a different perspective; where you consider the value and balance given to traditional, low impact hunting cultures in healthy ecosystems and nature-engaged communities, there is hope.  Keep hunting!!


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## Equine_Dream (26 November 2019)

Very well put Palo! ðŸ‘ I truly hope you are right


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## palo1 (26 November 2019)

ponyparty said:



			I've been lurking on this thread for ages now, not commenting because everything i would say has already been said by palo1! 

It is great to know that others feel the same about it   I know there are many people who do but there are lots of reasons not to put your head above the parapet.  I am really glad this thread has been so reasonable as well!  

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## Foxterrierist (21 January 2020)

Whatever your view on hunting the sabs seem really extreme and downright nasty. For this reason I’m put off going, as it just doesn’t seem worth the hassle. I’ve seen footage where they come up to riders and attack them and the horse. Let’s face it, in that situation you have to defend yourself and will probably end up on an assault charge.


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## Foxterrierist (21 January 2020)

The Hunt in Warwickshire employ security staff to keep riders safe but the sabs still manage to attack and harass them.   Heard them go past my place and wanted to go see the hounds in cry which sounded amazing, but was put off by sab presence and didn’t fancy being  stalked / filmed by these loons!


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## Starzaan (21 January 2020)

palo1 said:



			I hunted pre-ban and still enjoy hunting post ban. In our part of the world it is still quite an important community thing.  The local hunt is largely welcomed by farmers and locals alike and the only negativity we have had is when car followers block the roads! Some farmers have problems with particular individuals usually due to unrelated and mostly agricultural arguments and subsequently one neighbour or another will decline to have the hunt visit. New country is opened and closed to us through the years as arguments/alliegances and farming practices wax and wane.  We very occasionally meet hunt monitors and both hunt followers and monitors tend to be polite for the brief periods that we are in contact.  We are often in quite public areas too. It is notable that on the whole the two lots of people never actually know each other and I have only seen monitors out twice in the last 7 years.   I have hunted for many years and have been fortunate that pre-ban never saw anything which made me feel uncomfortable.  The death of a fox by hounds is brutal but instant and I have been fortunate that those hunts I have known have been entirely professional in dealing with foxes.  Post ban, it is more difficult because hunts are trying to anticipate how they may be 'caught out' and it is not easy to know exactly how close to the right line hounds are but it is still possible to watch and listen to hounds working out a line across natural country and to do your best to keep with them!!  It is a great challenge and brilliant company if you are lucky!!  More people are enjoying hunting now than pre-ban remember so all is not doom and gloom.

I am sure that there are horribly cruel people attracted to any kind of pest or animal control - the killing of animals for any reason, if it is done directly is likely to brutalise people to a degree, even if that would never be their choice.  That includes those that work in slaughter houses, farmers who have to kill an animal for humane reasons, those that kill rats and possibly, to a degree even vets who have to deal with some difficult and very necessary deaths.  Most of us, most of the time don't have to get near the dirty end of any kind of animal control even though many of us eat meat.  This brutalising influence is one of the best arguments I think for vegetarianism.  

I never agreed with the hunting ban and felt horrified at the time that such an iconic and culturally significant animal as the fox would be reduced to to being controlled by any means other than by hounds.  In Britain, as in all places where foxes naturally occur, they evolved to be predated on by bears and wolves.  There is no difference to a fox being hunted by hounds as by wolves.  We got rid of our wolves here!! Pre ban and in places where foxes are still hunted by hounds,  foxes show very very few signs of distress or behaviour modification during a hunt; they have been filmed even hunting and killing on their own account.  The final part of a hunt, whether by hounds or wolves is certainly stressful but there is a totally binary outcome and I am (or would be) at peace with that.  

Many people who opposed fox hunting never witnessed or tried to understand it and seemed to make all sorts of assumptions about it.  If you remove some of the ghastly, entitled people who traditionally participated it would probably have been easier for people to accept.  As it is, ordinary people still take part in a minority activity yet are in fear of harrassment by masked and potentially violent antis.  That simply wouldnt be tolerated in cities or towns for any reason.  It just feels like class and cultural warfare to be honest and I really don't think it has anything to do with animal welfare.   If it did, those vociferous antis would better occupy their time worrying about and doing something about factory farming, farm animal welfare, rural conservation, puppy farming and other issues which have a huge impact on animal welfare.
		
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What a wonderful and well written answer. I agree wholeheartedly with every word, and you put it much better than me haha!


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## palo1 (22 January 2020)

Starzaan said:



			What a wonderful and well written answer. I agree wholeheartedly with every word, and you put it much better than me haha!
		
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Too kind!  It is something I feel passionately about tbh.  I am sad that the possibility of sabs present might put people off; that is exactly what they want of course.   But also because I do think hunting with hounds could have a real relevance in a more ecologically aware future.  There is so much evidence to suggest that hunting with hounds acting in lieu of our now vanished top predators would be more balanced and beneficial in a number of ways than shooting/poisoning/gassing etc.  There is an environmental charity has that deployed volunteers to 'act' as wolves in an effort to protect emerging new woodland trees from deer; not to predate the deer of course but to put in place the other effects that a top predator such as a pack of wolves has in an environment.  These are far reaching and subtle but very famously documented in Yellowstone park USA.    Of course that would only have a very, very small part to play in a more balanced countryside but as we become increasingly aware of the the delicate web of links in nature who knows?  I do understand why people think hunting an animal with hounds might be cruel - they have been told that over and over and over again but most people who campaign (not everyone) has not seen the reality or is possibly understandably turned off by the cultural elements - the dress, the rituals etc.  That isn't anything to do with the death of a fox by hounds.    It is also worth repeating (probably ad nauseam) that there is no sense whatsoever in believing that hunting a fox with hounds is worse than hunting rats with terriers.  I don't have a problem with either myself but rats are as intelligent, social and sentient as foxes and they do suffer fear and stress when faced with terriers.  Yet there is very, very little disquiet about that practice.  The law is an ass but must be abided by sadly.  In the meantime vixens heavily in cub and nursing youngsters this summer will be shot, gassed, trapped and poisoned.


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## ycbm (22 January 2020)

Palo, the difference between fox hunting and terriers ratting is primarily the chase and the length of time the hunted animal is aware of being hunted, secondarily the digging out of a gone to ground animal, the cubbing carried out to teach young hounds to hunt and the  hunting and kennel injuries of the hounds.

It makes sense to many people that fox hunting is worse than ratting,  and you can repeat that it doesn't ad nauseam if you choose, but it doesn't make you right. It just devalues your other arguments, which are very well put. 

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## Sandstone1 (22 January 2020)

Recent behaviour of one hunt.  This has been witnessed by independent    witnesses not just sabs.   Trespass on a rail line causing delays and could have De railed  a train.    Hounds running through a grave yard and   pooing on graves. Hounds running through people's gardens. Hounds hunting a fox through a village at school time in view of young school children. Hounds illegally hunting and killing a fox. Quad bikes on roads with no number plates.    How's that right? No doubt there will be excuses but it I drive on a road with no number plates or had out of control dogs what do you think would happen?


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## palo1 (22 January 2020)

ycbm said:



			Palo, the difference between fox hunting and terriers ratting is primarily the chase and the length of time the hunted animal is aware of being hunted, secondarily the digging out of a gone to ground animal, the cubbing carried out to teach young hounds to hunt and the  hunting and kennel injuries of the hounds.

It makes sense to many people that fox hunting is worse than ratting,  and you can repeat that it doesn't ad nauseam if you choose, but it doesn't make you right. It just devalues your other arguments, which are very well put.

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Well that is a fair response ycbm.  There is evidence and plenty of it (including veterinary evidence) that awareness of being hunted is not especially stressful for an animal evolved for it as a fox is.  Clearly it IS stressful in the last part of a hunt though that may be counterbalanced by the binary outcome.  I know that there tend to be very polarised views on this - exemplified by mine and yours!  The digging out of a fox is a different thing to me - although a skilled job and one that is still legal outside of a trail hunting scenario, it has always seemed unfair and, when carried out by people, unnatural.  But that is not a contested practice in law.    The old fashioned cubbing is very much a part of a deliberate hunt and I do agree to some extent with you that it is unfair though that practice evolved to deal with young foxes and young hounds.  I have seen nothing like that post ban hunting though you say you have seen it go on.  Certainly the encircling of a covert by riders does not happen now in my experience. I have seen riders placed strategically by the field master in order to ensure that hounds do not travel in a certain direction.  Although trails are laid (and should be correct) there are times when a belt and braces approach is definately best. I have seen this deployed when a fox has been seen and it is possible to line riders out to make certain that hounds do NOT follow that trail.   Sabs don't often understand that and I guess they may deliberately misinterpret it tbh.  

I get your point about ad nauseam too - that happens on both sides of this argument and I can't help believing and continuing to assert what I see, understand and believe.   I don't think most people give a damn about rats and that is why they think killing them with dogs is ok. Foxes are beautiful, iconic to our understanding of the countryside and have become emblematic of a very specific cultural divide.


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## Bob notacob (24 January 2020)

palo1 said:



			Well that is a fair response ycbm.  There is evidence and plenty of it (including veterinary evidence) that awareness of being hunted is not especially stressful for an animal evolved for it as a fox is.  Clearly it IS stressful in the last part of a hunt though that may be counterbalanced by the binary outcome.  I know that there tend to be very polarised views on this - exemplified by mine and yours!  The digging out of a fox is a different thing to me - although a skilled job and one that is still legal outside of a trail hunting scenario, it has always seemed unfair and, when carried out by people, unnatural.  But that is not a contested practice in law.    The old fashioned cubbing is very much a part of a deliberate hunt and I do agree to some extent with you that it is unfair though that practice evolved to deal with young foxes and young hounds.  I have seen nothing like that post ban hunting though you say you have seen it go on.  Certainly the encircling of a covert by riders does not happen now in my experience. I have seen riders placed strategically by the field master in order to ensure that hounds do not travel in a certain direction.  Although trails are laid (and should be correct) there are times when a belt and braces approach is definately best. I have seen this deployed when a fox has been seen and it is possible to line riders out to make certain that hounds do NOT follow that trail.   Sabs don't often understand that and I guess they may deliberately misinterpret it tbh. 

I get your point about ad nauseam too - that happens on both sides of this argument and I can't help believing and continuing to assert what I see, understand and believe.   I don't think most people give a damn about rats and that is why they think killing them with dogs is ok. Foxes are beautiful, iconic to our understanding of the countryside and have become emblematic of a very specific cultural divide.
		
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A well presented opinion. In my experience of 50 years hunting, the fox is always given an out , a chance to run . We dont chop foxes . I have seen plenty of foxes chopped but  purely due to outside(anti) action.


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## Tiddlypom (24 January 2020)

What is ‘chopping’ a fox?


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## palo1 (24 January 2020)

It's not a term I am familiar with Tiddlypom tbh so I am hoping Bob notacob will be back!! As an aside though it may be linked, I have absolutely seen antis placed so that a fox may be turned back toward hounds.   I don't see enough antis to know if that is entirely deliberate and planned in the hope they can then film 'illegal' trail hunting or more often due to ignorance/lack of understanding and lack of detailed knowledge of the country (in terms of fox favoured hedgerows/crops/coverts etc)  but it serves no purpose whatsoever other than to cause trouble for hunts and for foxes.


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## Foxychops (26 January 2020)

I'm on the fence. Love to see them out but don't like the fact they do still hunt rather than trail. If they actually followed a trail I would be happy. As it stands I would prefer a total ban


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## Fred66 (27 January 2020)

ycbm said:



			You may not know anyone who goes around saying they have 'dominion over animals' as per the bible, but we live lives that are simply saturated with that entitlement. We eat animals for the pleasure of it when we can do perfectly well without, we ride horses without even thinking about whether it might be wrong to do that, we castrate males of many species to make them easier to keep as pets or livestock, we remove many types of animal we define as vermin because they are in the wrong place for us,  the list is endless.

I'm not saying that I think any of this is wrong, but there are certainly other people who are questioning it, and I can see a future where it becomes the accepted viewpoint.
		
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Sadly you are probably right. A vocal minority of people are allowed to go unchecked, intimidating and threatening people in an attempt to force others to adhere to their way of thinking. By all means lobby your MP or arrange protests but at no point has it ever been acceptable for anyone to break the law to try and assess whether another law might or might not be being broken.


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## oldie48 (27 January 2020)

I suspect the future of some hunts in increasingly populated areas is already very fragile. I live very close to the boundary of two hunt countries and as a result there are weeks when I have two days when I have to keep my horses in. Clearly both hunts are using the same areas more frequently as they have less land available to them. It's noticeable talking to neighbours that generally they are less well disposed to hunting as we have more shoots in the area and more land is being turned over to different uses other than farming, also with the current climate the hunt coming through makes a horrible mess of the land because we are on heavy clay. TBH what really winds me up are the car followers who block the single track lanes and frequently park in my gateways, making a real mess and the one hunt who now lets me know if they are are within 10 miles of me, just in case, so I end up keeping my horses in unnecessarily. Foxes don't have any natural predators and need to be controlled (as do rats) but I'm becoming increasingly of the opinion that hunting is not the way to do it.


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## KatieM84 (30 April 2020)

I can see both sides of the argument. I've heard of hunts having set up dens to encourage foxes to live in the area and feeding them which goes against the argument of pest control.  Digging them out when they go to ground also doesn't seem very sporting.  I want to go hunting this season, it will be my first time out.  I do like the spectacle that hunting Is, the turnout of horse and rider, the ability to ride across the countryside. It's a tough one, I think because I really like foxes, I shoot other animals but foxes are a no. I think I'm just being sentimental.  If it was a rabbit being hunted I would say it's nature.  Sorry I've gone on a ramble haha.  I think there are people on both sides that behave in appalling ways and I hope that is the few rather than the many.


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## [139672] (30 April 2020)

Anyone remember that really, really old film, The Belstone Fox? Remember watching it when I was about 10.


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## IngramsRoughDiamond (30 April 2020)

I am all for fox hunting, even more so since one followed me and my dogs on a recent evening walk and was trying to stalk and steal one of my tiny dogs


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## MagicMelon (27 July 2020)

I rarely venture in this particular forum since Im very anti. I was born and have lived in the (very rural) countryside my whole life. I very much live in a farming area, most of the kids at my sons school are farmers, I live very near a pheasant shooting estate, I have lost all our ducks to foxes, my OH's dad was a hunt master etc. so I totally understand the countryside ways.

However, I will never agree with the killing of animals. I understand to a degree that some animals might need to be controlled, however I very much do not agree with any enjoyment being had doing so... hunting falls under this category. It is a heap of people galloping about having a great time with the aim being a grim death of an animal after having been chased for who knows how long. That to me, is barbaric and I'm shocked it still continues in this day and age. No animal should be terrorised by a pack of dogs and galloping horses before its demise. It baffles me some people think this is ok. Im very lucky that where I live (NE Scotland) I never see hunting. I think there's a pack somewhere but its miles away thankfully. I dont believe hunts stick to the law by any means, there's far too much evidence to suggest otherwise therefore I believe an outright ban is absolutely necessary.

But hey, I'm the kind of person who wills the pheasants from the shoot down the road to come up to our house where they're safe - I even throw out bird food for them to try to encourage them to stay and avoid the slaughter caused by some nasty blokes (usually American it seems) paying a fortune to be driven around in 4x4's, drinking whisky and having a jolly old time maiming beautiful birds... It saddens me to my core to hear the shooting.


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## spacefaer (27 July 2020)

@MagicMelon 
You are perfectly entitled to your opinion.

Slightly futile posting it in this section of the forum and not sure why you have felt the need to resurrect an old thread.


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## Tiddlypom (27 July 2020)

MagicMelon often comments on zombie threads as if they are current ones. I think she doesn’t notice the dates.


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## zandp (27 July 2020)

To be fair, I saw the thread pop up, liked some posts, got to page 4 before I noticed the date !!


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## Foxterrierist (27 July 2020)

The first time I heard the hounds I felt quite emotional. A very beautiful song, set my dogs off and my youngest one went beserk!


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## Rebecca84 (29 August 2020)

I love hunting through and through, but would never attend a fox hunt. Drag hunts all the way!

Using foxes is completely unnecessary to me, and not what hunting is about.  I enjoy letting loose and the social aspect of the hunt. For me, the presence of a fox adds nothing to the experience. I don’t understand why people feel a fox makes things more exciting, and even it does, it’s not worth it for the cruelty


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## littlefluffball (15 September 2020)

Rebecca84 said:



			I love hunting through and through, but would never attend a fox hunt. Drag hunts all the way!

Using foxes is completely unnecessary to me, and not what hunting is about.  I enjoy letting loose and the social aspect of the hunt. For me, the presence of a fox adds nothing to the experience. I don’t understand why people feel a fox makes things more exciting, and even it does, it’s not worth it for the cruelty
		
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hmmm I would argue it IS what it is about considering that is what hunting is - we evolved to drag hunting - it is a relatively new concept.  Not saying I agree with it but it is hunting.  I don't know of anyone that feels they need a fox to make it more exciting but in Scotland hunting is still pest control so foxes are still being hunted - if we moved to drag hunting I think the same people would still hunt (and most likely more people who disagree with hunting a fox)  I don't know of anyone who would decide to no longer hunt because they aren't hunting an actual fox.  We don't have any drag or trail hunting here at all


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## Bernster (15 September 2020)

It seems a very odd and inefficient method of pest control to me.  The two don’t need to coincide or continue imo, which is why I’m a drag hunting convert.


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## palo1 (15 September 2020)

Bernster said:



			It seems a very odd and inefficient method of pest control to me.  The two don’t need to coincide or continue imo, which is why I’m a drag hunting convert.
		
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Well it is a bit immaterial really seeing as fox hunting has been banned for years but I would disagree about the 'oddness' and 'inefficiency' of it as pest control.  It may not be the best way to kill huge numbers of foxes but it is exactly the method of balance that nature itself has designed.  Foxes were once controlled by wolves and other predators in this country (including hounds) - once wolves etc were removed only hounds remained as predators of foxes.  That probably wasn't sufficient in all honesty BUT it probably was the most balanced and safe method of fox control from the point of view of the natural ecosystem.  So much work has been done on the incredible benefits of top predators in an ecosystem (the trophic cascade) that it is surprising that people still think that the number of animals culled by a predator is the most significant impact.  People clearly and understandably find those who 'spectate' on fox hunting with hounds as cruel but the reality is that hounds as a predator are certainly no crueller than lions, crocodiles, Eagles, wolves etc which on the whole people support preservation of.  I do get that the human element is perceived as unneccessary but the humans in a fox hunt are working with hounds as another predator.  It might not be pretty but it IS natural from that perspective.


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## Tiddlypom (15 September 2020)

littlefluffball said:



			I don't know of anyone who would decide to no longer hunt because they aren't hunting an actual fox.
		
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I do. A local MFH who gave up the mastership in disgust at the end of the season before last when his pack finally decided to trail hunt.

He ‘couldn’t see the point in trail hunting’. Though he’d declared to me not long before that, while he was still a master ‘Of course we are trail hunting’, when it was very obvious that they weren’t...


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