# Clipped out porker horse and no rugs -cruel?



## Petalpoos (12 November 2011)

I put the weigh tape round my haffie today and was horrified to see she has put on 40kg over the last 4 weeks and is now 80kg overweight - despite having a greenguard on all day when she's out and only 3 sections of hay at night when she is stabled. The grass is still growing here, but if I put her in a starvie paddock it will become a mud hole once the rains start. In desperation, I have just given her a chaser clip and intend to leave her without rugs to see if that will help. I am also going to soak her hay. Unfortunately she is a companion horse and I don't have time to ride her as well as my other one, but she is seriously fat, much worse than previous years, I think because the grass has not stopped growing. It was 17C today!

Has anyone else had any success with clipping an overweight horse and leaving it naked? Am I being very unkind in clipping her and leaving her out with no rugs (and i intend to leave her with no rugs all winter)?


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## galaxy (12 November 2011)

I suppose your sections may be smaller, but 3 sections seems a lot for a horse that size?  Do you weigh it?

My 16hh chunkster only gets just over 2 sections which is 7ish kgs.  (good doer, weigh tapes 560kgs)

In this weather I would leave a chaser clipped horse unrugged.  Any way you could advertise for someone to exercise her?  Or is she a companion for a reason?


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## Dizzydancer (12 November 2011)

I am wanting to do this to one on our yard who is huge! Only thing i would say is if very wet and windy put a sheet on incase they get a chill. You have left most areas that get wet on tho i presume as its a chaser. I would imagine it should help reduce weight especially if it does actually go cold!! Worth a try but just monitor incase pony struggles to actually get and stay warm.


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## almorton (12 November 2011)

no, not as unkind as her getting laminitis!
let her use some energy to keep warm, and 3 sections of hay is a lot! my 17hand warmblood gets a 4 folds in 24hours! doublenetted to last!


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## jennywren07 (12 November 2011)

My porker has a low trace and wears a rainsheet (just to keep her clean for riding) she's out 24/7 and muzzeld 24/7 but we have rediculously good grass so even with all that and her being on a patch the size of 2 foaling stables she still manages to maintain if not put on weight  she also have lameness problems so its hard to exercise her enough to get it off. Since being clipped weve dropped a bit of weight so it's clearly doing something!

i'd just keep an eye on her. afterall if she looks to be tucked up or looking poor you can always stick a rug on her


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## SusieT (12 November 2011)

Yes. Think how uncomroftable she will be at the point of shivering off the fat?
3 sections of hay seems a lot. Also, ponies on restricted intake (i.e out only during day) can speed up their eating to eat their days food in a minimum of 6 hours. So my tactic would be strip grazing, on small patches and only 1 slice of soaked hay a night, depending on her height.


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## Pearlsasinger (12 November 2011)

Well I'm usually very anti-rug but even I wouldn't do that!  She would have no means of keeping herself warm/comfortable in bad weather.
I bought a very overweight mare last winter.  She had been clipped out, except for her legs and head.  She wore an unlined turnout rug for the rest of the winter and went on a diet.  I'd give yours 12 hrs soaked hay, supplement with oat straw and possibly look for someone who could ride her if she is sound. 

.


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## PonyIAmNotFood (12 November 2011)

She needs exercise imo, can't you get someone to ride her? Its a bit mean to chill the weight off her tbh but if there's really no other option its better than lami.


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## Petalpoos (12 November 2011)

Regular sized small hay bales, and I double bag it in 2 small-hole haylage bags, but if she does not have hay to eat all night then she literally eats the stable. She is one of those horses that just has to eat all the time. Re exercise - she is a lovely ride, but there are no takers around here. My partner wants to ride her but she is so fat that I can't get a saddle to fit. I want to get her weight down so I can get a saddle on her and he can start coming out with me. I am going to try and lunge her a few times a week and see if that helps.


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## galaxy (12 November 2011)

Do you mean you have wooden stables and he chews it?  Or he eats his bedding?

I think you need to drastically reduce his hay intake (as well as 12 hr soaking it) before doing anything as drastic as freezing the weight off him.

Have you advertised on nfed for a rider?


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## Echo Bravo (12 November 2011)

If you need to clip her, put on a light sheet during the night or when it's going to rain, but I'd cut down on her feed and if you cann't ride her just lunge her for 15/20 mins per day.


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## Echo Bravo (12 November 2011)

Hum didn't read your post properly, if she's a companion can she be lunged, otherwise you could put a muzzle on her for so many hours


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## Megalini_22 (12 November 2011)

Be cruel to be kind. No it's not ideal but better that than the added strain on joints. Stables are very warm compared to outside. I'd put l/w on for t/o but happily leave rug off in stable. Horses keep warm through digesting fibre, let her be natural and she'll sort her weight out. Many owners should take a lesson out of your book. The weight will come off which is the main thing.. Then happy healthy horsey!x


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## Petalpoos (12 November 2011)

She actually eats the (wooden) stable! I may try a triple hay net with less hay and will be soaking her hay as of tomorrow and lunging her. Amazing how fat she has got though, I have had her for 3 years and she's never been this bad. There has definitely been something going on with the grass this year as it never seems to have got to the lower sugar stage, I guess because of the high temperature. 

Thanks for all your advice.


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## galaxy (12 November 2011)

The suggestion to fill her nets out with straw was also a good one if she really has to have something to munch on!


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## meesha (12 November 2011)

The grass is growing like stink this year, went up to quantocks and have never seen the wild ponies looking so well (if not bit overweight)! As long as u use light sheet if wet would think fine out with partial clip, it will prob grow back in a couple of weeks (see thread on this) try mixing hay with something different such as straw. Exercise the key lunging or even better loose schooling will Def help !


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## amandap (12 November 2011)

I think a full clip and no rug is very unkind at this time of year. 

As well as the muzzle soak her hay and bed on shavings or other inedible bedding. Lots of energetic walking is better than fast work or lunging imo.


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## **Vanner** (12 November 2011)

almorton said:



			no, not as unkind as her getting laminitis!
let her use some energy to keep warm, and 3 sections of hay is a lot! my 17hand warmblood gets a 4 folds in 24hours! doublenetted to last! 

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^^^^ as above^^^^

I would halve her hay if she is putting on weight.


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## Mince Pie (12 November 2011)

amandap said:



			I think a full clip and no rug is very unkind at this time of year. 

As well as the muzzle soak her hay and bed on shavings or other inedible bedding. Lots of energetic walking is better than fast work or lunging imo.
		
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OP said a chaser clip...

And mine has been rugless whilst the nights have been mild, and either naked or in a sheet when out and he has been fine, and still warm.


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## TicTac (12 November 2011)

amandap said:



			I think a full clip and no rug is very unkind at this time of year. 

As well as the muzzle soak her hay and bed on shavings or other inedible bedding. Lots of energetic walking is better than fast work or lunging imo.
		
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Well said. It does so annoy me that people think they can freeze or starve a fat horse slim in an instant. 

Dont let it get overweight in the first place, but if it is then manage it properly.

Tell you what, try telling the next fat person you see that they must stay out at night with no clothes on having first been tied up all day with sellotape accross their mouth!


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## mainpower (12 November 2011)

My 4yo has a chaser clip and lived out naked until two weeks ago, now he comes in at night and still doesn't wear a rug. He can move about in the field if he's cold, and stand under trees if it rains. He has never worn a rug in all his life, and I consider him to be the warmest horse on my yard, even in the snow as his coat is not flattened by a rug so the "lofting" has full effect. My older horse is fully clipped, and is turned out either naked, or wearing a no fill t/o, or his Buccas sunshower, depending on the weather, very mild here! I wouldn't leave a fully clipped out horse naked in a stable at night as they can't move themselves around to warm up or get out of any drafts blowing through the stable. I would much rather my horses burnt off some calories keeping themselves warm than restrict their hay and have them standing in the stable hungry for hours on end.


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## frankie8 (12 November 2011)

Not cruel at all. Mine is full clipped and still naked, although she is stabled at night. She did wear a light rug when first done but was just too warm! She is however a particularly hot horse. I wouldn't worry, they are a lot tougher than we give them credit for, she'll survive!


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## Foxhunter49 (12 November 2011)

Cut her hay right back and creosote the stable with a creosote/old engine oil mix, about 2/3 creosote to 1/3 engine oil.


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## Merry Crisis (12 November 2011)

I suppose you learn something every day with horses. Never have I ever heard of clipping a horse that is not being ridden in the hope that it will lose weight getting cold. That is such a good idea! Yes it will survive, of course it will, but I think I could think of a lot of different ways to manage an overweight horse, perhaps like not allowing it to get fat in the first place? Exercise, restricted grazing in the summer months, I could go on. I got an emaciated TB last winter, perhaps I should have reversed the method and just piled loads of rugs on him and left him to it. Sadly there is no quick fix.


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## starryeyed (12 November 2011)

As others have said, you need to cut down on the hay your beastie is having  - I know what it's like to have a horse that's constantly wanting to eat but with triple netting it's really helped to slow him down - more of a challenge! - but it does sound like she's having far too much for her size, especially if she's only a companion.
I don't know what the weather is like around you (sounds nice at 17 though!) but I'm sure you can gage whether or not your horse will be cold or not, some are naturally better at staying warm than others. I'd maybe stick a lightweight on to stop any cold winds / rain just as a bit of protection because it will probably be a bit of a shock to the system for her, but just keep an eye on her and see how she's doing. Obviously when it gets colder you'll need to rug her up more but if it's 17 degrees where you are at the moment then I don't think it will be too bad for the time being. I would definitely stick something on overnight though because she won't be able to keep warm standing still and the temperature does drop a fair bit.
Definitely soak the hay, the longer the better really. Lunging will help shift the weight if you don't have anyone to ride her, but start off slow as it's quite tough on the joints and if she's a porker then it will be quite hard on her - short sessions of walk/trot and building it up over time. Alternatively taking her for walks might be a better way to kick start the weight loss as it's less strain on the joints and still a good way to help move it.
You don't say whether you keep her at home or at a yard, but is there anywhere you can put her that's not in the field or in the starvation patch you say will get too muddy? - if she's at home, can you section off the yard maybe so that she can walk around but not graze?
Good luck with her diet, at least you've noticed before it gets too out of hand.


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## FanyDuChamp (13 November 2011)

Fany is fully clipped except legs and in a rug. She has very restricted amount of hay. Took her out today and she was fine, still not lost any weight but she is at a good weight at present. Personally I would not clip, leave unrugged and restrict feed. 2 but not all three.
FDC


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## Clippy (13 November 2011)

I think you're doing the right thing by clipping her. Nature intends horses to use their fat stores over winter and if you don't get to grips with that blubber now, she's going to be twice as bad come next spring. You'll obviously be able to monitor her and the weather and adjust your plans if you think you need to but it will certainly help to trim her down if you can't give her plenty of work and she's already on the bare minimum of forage


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## PucciNPoni (13 November 2011)

Petalpoos said:



			Has anyone else had any success with clipping an overweight horse and leaving it naked? Am I being very unkind in clipping her and leaving her out with no rugs (and i intend to leave her with no rugs all winter)?
		
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Hmmm, I'd perhaps not leave her completely naked - maybe a rain sheet at least as the grease that protected her also went with the hair.  


However....my friend just went to a seminar that was run by some vet who she said was a leading vet in laminitis/ems and so forth (I don't know the name, i wasn't there -but she told me the gist of the talk).  He said that more people should be clipping and leaving naked!  Now it wouldn't be me to leave my horse bare, but I have certainly had luck with clipping and UNDER rugging.

When I sought advice from a nutrionist for dropping weight on an extremely good doer, they suggested putting on a trace clip and then no rugs.  As I simply have not got the time to be scraping off mud when I want to ride, I opted for full clip and lighter rugs and it did indeed help.


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## katherine1975 (13 November 2011)

You could feed hay mixed with straw when in and use an elimanet haynet. Also, could you ride and lead for exercise? My fatty cob has a hunter clip and only a lightweight no fill rug on at the moment.


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## Bubley898 (13 November 2011)

Apologies if this has already been said, I haven't read all the posts, but if your partner wants to ride, why don't you ride your other horse and lead her from that one? You can then get the weight down to find a saddle that fits. I also don't think having a trace clip in this weather with no rug is cruel, it will soon grow back when it starts to get colder.


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## amandap (13 November 2011)

broke_but_happy said:



			OP said a chaser clip...
		
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Fair enough. Doesn't a chaser clip remove a good chunk of neck hair?
I still think managing weight loss with diet and exercize is preferable.
Soaking hay is imo a very important part so calories are reduced without restricting the amount of forage so much that there is a risk of colic etc.
A good walk has, I believe, been shown to use more calories than faster work. Also, if the horse is very overweight faster work will strain the whole body, work needs to be built up gradually to build up fitness, especially in a companion horse.
Just my opinion of course. Weight loss takes time, hard work and dedication in my experience.

Some ideas on here might be useful. http://www.worldhorsewelfare.org/information/right_weight_advice


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## ester (13 November 2011)

I'm quite surprised at some peoples opinions on this thread 
I don't think that 3 sections of hay is that much overnight for a horse of normal weight as some seem to be implying , both of mine get that including the pony. However if yours really is that fat then I would be reducing and soaking. 

2) I like clipping and not rugging, in fact I do it all year round  though that is mostly because Frank is a fluff in the summer. If he wants to get warm when out in the field he can give himself some exercise, someone said how cold they would have to get to shiver weight off.. they dont have to 'shiver' weight off, their metabolism produces heat and you are just upping the rate at which they use their fat store to do this and if they are outside they are pretty good at warming themselves up if necessary. I often think it is underused. Interesting to hear that the vet mentioned it. 

I always keep rugging to a minimum because Frank gets scabby if too warm. 

The op has also only chaser clipped, assuming this is of normal height this horse still has all of its back and bum on at the very least and hence most of its waterproofing too as those are the bits that get wet. 

However OP, I do think that haffies were never designed to be companions and I would be surprised if you could get this pony to a sensible weight without work.

amandap, this is what my chaser clip looks like stock photo. so not a lot of hair removed really, as a haffie I am guessing copious mane too!


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## noblesteed (13 November 2011)

If it's any help I just read the 'Feeding' supplement that came free with BHS magazine.
It states overweight horses should have 1.5% of their bodyweight in forage. So you should be able to work out a suitable hay ration from that. 

Now I own a fatty, I weight taped him at 511 kg. SO he should be eating 7.5kg forage per 24 hours. If he is IN for 12 hours that would be 3.75 kg. HOWEVER as someone on here pointed out he probably eats more than 3.75 kg grass while he is out. So I am not giving him 3.75 kg hay - that would be about 2 slices and TOO MUCH. SO your 3 is WAY over. 

As I have had amy horse a few years I can safely say he does NOT become miserable, sick or sorry in winter. He is clipped, unrugged in stable at night and wears a summer turnout unless it is snowing. He is out unmuzzled during the day ( as opposed to summer out 24 hours in a greenguard). At night he is given about 1.5 slices of last year's hay soaked for 8 hours. He gets D & H Equibites to supplement this instead of a proper bucket feed. He can only be ridden at weekends due to not having floodlights so this is the best I can do. I am NOT CRUEL, my horse is happy, healthy, loves his work, although STILL slightly porky even on that regime.

Looking at the photo above mine has the same clip as that

Some horses are just good doers, it's as simple as that. It's much harder getting weight off a fatty than people who DON"T have fatties realise. SO take off those rugs and cut down on the hay. If she eats her stable then give her something else to do, cribbing is a vice. You could get her a snack ball and put some VERY low calorie high fibre cubes in? (but cut her hay to compensate) SOmeone on here suggested mixing oat straw in with the hay as it's much lower in calories, to bulk it out.


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## galaxy (13 November 2011)

ester said:



			I'm quite surprised at some peoples opinions on this thread 
I don't think that 3 sections of hay is that much overnight for a horse of normal weight as some seem to be implying , both of mine get that including the pony. However if yours really is that fat then I would be reducing and soaking.
		
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I don't know what a Haffie would weigh tape, but if I'm generous and say 450kgs then 2% which should be the ponies total intake over 24hrs would be 9kgs.  I would guess that 3 sections of hay prob weighs more than that by itself... (my 2 and a bit sections weigh between 7 and 8 kgs)  and that amount should be over 24 hrs, not just overnight. Feed companies recommend that if a horse is on a diet they should only get 1.5% of their body wieght, therefore even less.

There was a good free booklet that came with the latest British horse magaizine.


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## galaxy (13 November 2011)

noblesteed said:



			If it's any help I just read the 'Feeding' supplement that came free with BHS magazine.
It states overweight horses should have 1.5% of their bodyweight in forage. So you should be able to work out a suitable hay ration from that.
		
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lol.  cross posted quoting the same thing!


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## amandap (13 November 2011)

ester said:



			amandap, this is what my chaser clip looks like stock photo. so not a lot of hair removed really, as a haffie I am guessing copious mane too!






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The ones I've seen are much higher on the neck and part of the head clipped too.
I do forget that here the weather is very changeable with lots of heavy rain and wind, I see you and the op are in the far south of UK. 

I must say I wouldn't like to see a horse shivering to loose weight. Horses shiver when body temperature has dropped low and if conditions don't improve it could lead to hypothermia surely.


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## ester (13 November 2011)

galaxy23 said:



			I don't know what a Haffie would weigh tape, but if I'm generous and say 450kgs then 2% which should be the ponies total intake over 24hrs would be 9kgs.  I would guess that 3 sections of hay prob weighs more than that by itself... (my 2 and a bit sections weigh between 7 and 8 kgs)  and that amount should be over 24 hrs, not just overnight. Feed companies recommend that if a horse is on a diet they should only get 1.5% of their body wieght, therefore even less.

There was a good free booklet that came with the latest British horse magaizine.
		
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I reckon we must have light hay or it is rubbish way of measuring! I do actually feed by weight, and they have between 12 and 16 pounds overnight (5pm-7am).. dependent on the cold! I had to do a google conversion to kilos! 12 pounds is 5.5 kg so not far off by that estimation. 

I do agree that it needs reducing for dieting though .  and second the oat straw mentioned.


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## Clodagh (13 November 2011)

I used to triple haylage nets my small fat ponies hay. And soak it for 12 hours. Can't you creosote or cribbox the stable to stop her chewing it? I also led the ponies off my horse, if shes fat and unfit then lungeing will be bad for her joints, hacking out would be better. I would take her neck off (or a chaser like the photo) and leave her naked unless its wet in which case she would have a rain sheet on.


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## Rosehip (13 November 2011)

My lami girl has a chaser clip as part of her diet and management, but she is rugged at night in a 100g, and is either naked or has a rain sheet on in the day. 
She has 4lb of hay in the morning, and 6lb at night plus a small feed - zero grass and has a problem with colic if she isnt chewing - she is gradually losing weight, still approx 20kg more than the vet would like, but only about 10kg off where I would like her.... the vet wants her at 440kg , personally thats too lean for a Fell. 
Is there anyone you could borrow a treeless off, or is she ok to be ridden bareback? That would solve the saddle problem  Good luck


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## FanyDuChamp (13 November 2011)

lionman said:



			I suppose you learn something every day with horses. Never have I ever heard of clipping a horse that is not being ridden in the hope that it will lose weight getting cold. That is such a good idea! Yes it will survive, of course it will, but I think I could think of a lot of different ways to manage an overweight horse, perhaps like not allowing it to get fat in the first place? Exercise, restricted grazing in the summer months, I could go on. I got an emaciated TB last winter, perhaps I should have reversed the method and just piled loads of rugs on him and left him to it. Sadly there is no quick fix.
		
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I actually agree with you, this is the first year Fany has been clipped and rugged and it because she scratches so hard when she has her extremely full coat that she makes herself bleed. Fany was obese when we got her and has now achieved a good weight the vet says. I think clipping then not rugging is cruel tbh like getting a human out of their winter clothes and putting them in a swimsuit. However, a lot of people do seem to use it as a  way to weight loss.

Lastly I also agree there is no quick fix, in fact it is a long hard slog with a very good doer to get weight off and requires utter determination and in Fany's case quite a hard heart when she turns her big sad eyes on you!

FDC


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## Penny Less (13 November 2011)

Just chucking my two pennorth in. I have chaser clipped my hairy fat beast and not rugged. He is in at night. The temperature here has been between 50 and 60 degrees.
One reason was because he sweats when ridden (not ridden often) but the other was to try and get some fat off him.


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## noblesteed (13 November 2011)

I am also amazed by some of the replies to this post... Keeping a fatty in good shape is an ENDLESS struggle, not helped by people's (mainly skinny tb owners') remarks 'hmm he looks well,' etc. I am permanently racked with guilt about leaving mine out 24 hours in a greenguard in summer, then under-rugging and starving him in winter. But I would feel far more guilty if he had laminitis!

As far as I understand, HEAT is a bi-product of a horses' digestive system, therefore as long as they have forage to eat they are NOT going to 'die of cold' because their food is being converted to heat energy. I would rather my horse spent his energy keeping warm than laying down more fat!!!!

OP I would just read the BHS welfare advice off their website about keeping weight off fatties. The BHS team of scientists should PROBABLY know what they are talking about better than most!!!!!!!!


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## Wagtail (13 November 2011)

Yes, I think it is cruel not to rug and also that it is a pointless exercise. The reason being that your horse will not be used to having to suddenly produce more heat and it will take her a while to aclimatise. She will simply drop body temperarure and not use up more calories keeping warm. If you want to make her lose weight then exercise her more and feed her less. Making a horse cold to lose weight is a very unpleasant and IMO cruel method to use. Having said that, at the moment the temperatures are not that cold and so long as she has a ligthweight on she should be fine.


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## ester (13 November 2011)

homeostasis is a wonderful thing  . 

well said noblesteed, yup plenty of heat produced by a horse's digestive. This would normally trapped by fat layers/hair. By reducing the amount of hair it just leaves the body a bit faster. 

Plus it sounds like said haffie has plenty of insulating fat to keep it cosy too!


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## stencilface (13 November 2011)

Given current temps I don't think its cruel at all!  My horse (unclipped, box rest/restricted exercise) gets about 3/4 of a bale a day - he has a belly on him, but that is due to lack of muscle - which I am now building up, as opposed to just being fat - although he is always a good doer 

If they can eat and move they stay warm, esp if they have a good coat and a good fat store - chaser clips are fairly minor imo - all the top bits are covered.


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## JFTDWS (13 November 2011)

Wagtail said:



			The reason being that your horse will not be used to having to suddenly produce more heat and it will take her a while to aclimatise.
		
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Eh?  The body has a number of feedback mechanisms in place to allow it to judge and respond to changes in temperature - some responses are rapid (hair standing on end), some fast (increased metabolism) and others slow (the growth of a thicker coat).  It's all part of homeostasis.  

That said, my cob is trace clipped and naked (not all the time, but right now) because it's simply not cold enough to rug him right now, so I'm sure she'll be fine.


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## ester (13 November 2011)

Franks is full clipped (though does need re-doing) and naked, its been t-shirt weather practically here today!


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## Wagtail (13 November 2011)

JFTD said:



			Eh?  The body has a number of feedback mechanisms in place to allow it to judge and respond to changes in temperature - some responses are rapid (hair standing on end), some fast (increased metabolism) and others slow (the growth of a thicker coat).  It's all part of homeostasis.  

That said, my cob is trace clipped and naked (not all the time, but right now) because it's simply not cold enough to rug him right now, so I'm sure she'll be fine.
		
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Typically, horses require 10 to 21 days to adapt to cold.

(see http://www.gaitedhorses.net/Articles/coldweathermgmt.shtml)


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## JFTDWS (13 November 2011)

t-shirt weather here too.  My highland's fully clipped but I did rug him as I don't want him filthy tomorrow 

OP - Another vote for feeding straw instead of hay and taking it out ride and lead off your other horse


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## Serephin (13 November 2011)

My cob has a low trace clip and he is out naked (in at night now) - I put a lightweight rug on him the other day cos of the rain and he sweated terribly, so I took it off again.  His fur is thick and he is like a bear.  The rain wasn't getting anywhere near his skin.  He is hot horse by nature so I see no point in rugging him - the only reason to rug would be if I gave into peer pressure.

Last year he spent most of the snowy winter in a lightweight rug, but thinking back, probably didn't need it.


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## ester (13 November 2011)

Wagtail said:



			Typically, horses require 10 to 21 days to adapt to cold.

(see http://www.gaitedhorses.net/Articles/coldweathermgmt.shtml)
		
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but, if said article is correct that is for horses going from 20C to 5C... in one change, ie not really equivalent to clipping part of a horse when the outside temp is remaining the same


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## JFTDWS (13 November 2011)

Furthermore, notice the distinction in the article between rapid and slow adaptations to the change in temperature.  I'd point out that the article clearly describes a number of useful rapid responses.  It doesn't actually determine what it means by aclimatisation - the shutting down of peripheral blood flow and changes in resp rate etc all occur within hours, not days (unless of course horses are an exception to normal _ endotherm _ rules ).

Aside from anything else (mostly the fact that it doesn't really say what you claim it says), I am disinclined to take the word of an _ un-referenced, non-peer reviewed _ article distributed by a non-veterinary / non-medical society.


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## Wagtail (13 November 2011)

The short term responses such as shivering etc are all very unpleasant. I would not want to put any horse through it unnecessarily. As it happens, it is quite mild at present and so I don't expect the OP's horse to suffer much if at all. But I really do not agree with the principle of purposely making a horse cold in an effort for it to lose weight. It is an inhumane method IMO.


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## Wagtail (13 November 2011)

JFTD said:



			Aside from anything else (mostly the fact that it doesn't really say what you claim it says), I am disinclined to take the word of an _ un-referenced, non-peer reviewed _ article distributed by a non-veterinary / non-medical society.
		
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So you disagree with the article? You think that horses immediately adapt?


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## JFTDWS (13 November 2011)

No, I agree with the article - I disagree with your interpretation of it.  I think it is unnecessarily vague and the specifics are useless without links to peer reviewed published empirical data to support them.  However, I draw your attention to the following statement:

"Horses respond in two ways to cold: acutely (immediately) and chronically"

And I repeat, as I have said before, that horses respond instantly, in an intermediary time frame (hours) and over long periods (adaptations such as growing a thicker coat).

I've never considered shivering to be unpleasant?  It's an effective and useful way of keeping warm.


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## Sussexbythesea (13 November 2011)

TicTac said:



			Well said. It does so annoy me that people think they can freeze or starve a fat horse slim in an instant. 

Dont let it get overweight in the first place, but if it is then manage it properly.

Tell you what, try telling the next fat person you see that they must stay out at night with no clothes on having first been tied up all day with sellotape accross their mouth!
		
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All the unclipped horses on our yard e.g. the elderly shetland and the young Fjord are sweating all the time at the moment it's so warm here even at night - I don't think a chaser clip will cause it to suffer in the least - it might even be more comfortable.


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## Wagtail (13 November 2011)

JFTD said:



			No, I agree with the article - I disagree with your interpretation of it.  I think it is unnecessarily vague and the specifics are useless without links to peer reviewed published empirical data to support them.  However, I draw your attention to the following statement:

"Horses respond in two ways to cold: acutely (immediately) and chronically"
And I repeat, as I have said before, that horses respond instantly, in an intermediary time frame (hours) and over long periods (adaptations such as growing a thicker coat).
		
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Yes, I know that. 




			I've never considered shivering to be unpleasant?  It's an effective and useful way of keeping warm.
		
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Then you are very strange if you honestly feel comfortable when you are shivering. Or is it just me who dislikes it? I positively hate getting cold and wouldn't inflict it on my horses if I can possibly help it. Certainly not intentionally. Do you intentionally make your horses cold?


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## 'S'teamed (13 November 2011)

Depends what clip TBH
Full, then no

but a chaser, low/high trace or even a blanket, then yes..in temps we have down south ATM

OVER rugging IMO is far more detrimental


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## JFTDWS (13 November 2011)

Wagtail said:



			Yes, I know that. 

Then why did you suggest that horses are only capable of adapting over longer periods?  As _ your _ article states, they do adapt immediately to changes in temperature  


Then you are very strange if you honestly feel comfortable when you are shivering. Or is it just me who dislikes it? I positively hate getting cold and wouldn't inflict it on my horses if I can possibly help it. Certainly not intentionally. Do you intentionally make your horses cold?
		
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I couldn't possibly comment as to which of us is more peculiar.  I am aware some people dislike being cold more than others.  I suspect horses are similar are those which "feel" the cold will make that evident.

I do not make my horses cold because I do not have obese horses.  Do you make your horses hot, because you prefer the warm?


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## Wagtail (13 November 2011)

JFTD said:



			I couldn't possibly comment as to which of us is more peculiar.  I am aware some people dislike being cold more than others.  I suspect horses are similar are those which "feel" the cold will make that evident.

I do not make my horses cold because I do not have obese horses.
		
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So you would if they were too fat?



			Do you make your horses hot, because you prefer the warm?
		
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 Why on earth would I do that? Over rugging is just as cruel.


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## Merry Crisis (13 November 2011)

JFTD said:



			I couldn't possibly comment as to which of us is more peculiar.  I am aware some people dislike being cold more than others.  I suspect horses are similar are those which "feel" the cold will make that evident.

I do not make my horses cold because I do not have obese horses.  Do you make your horses hot, because you prefer the warm?
		
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I would not like to be fat, I dont and wouldnt allow obesity in my horses either.


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## JFTDWS (13 November 2011)

Wagtail said:



			So you would if they were too fat?

I have never needed to - I have always been able to control their weight by other means - normally by stepping up exercise (you might notice I did recommend the OP ride and lead, and take other measures).  However, if I could not get weight under control by other means I would certainly consider not rugging in weather as warm as this, and under-rugging in colder weather. 

 Why on earth would I do that? Over rugging is just as cruel.
		
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At last we agree on something.  My point was that making it personal was neither constructive nor relevant


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## JFTDWS (13 November 2011)

lionman said:



			I would not like to be fat, I dont and wouldnt allow obesity in my horses either.
		
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Quite right, I couldn't agree more.  Fat horses are an abomination and I am inspired to maul their owners on a regular basis.

(Owners who don't bother to do anything about it, that is)


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## 'S'teamed (13 November 2011)

Fat horses AND over rugging...

a whole new thread


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## Wagtail (13 November 2011)

JFTD said:



			At last we agree on something.  My point was that making it personal was neither constructive nor relevant 

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I'm confused with your smilies TBH. You appear to be having some sort of dig with the roll eyes and the winks. For the record, I was not trying to make anything personal. I was trying to reference our own human experiences relating to basic responses that are shared by other mammals. I find being cold enough to shiver highly unpleasant and assumed that others felt the same way. I thought the comment was constructive because I was trying to illustrate a point by drawing on a common human experience. You are honestly the first person I have 'met' who does not mind being cold enough to shiver (and remember when people inflict it on their horses, it is not just for an hour or two which humans usually endure. It is 24/7. No getting warm again by the fire.) You are honestly saying you would not mind that? That you would not find it unpleasant to be underclothed 24/7?

Sorry if you feel this was 'personal and unconstructive', but I have to disagree with you there.


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## bumblelion (13 November 2011)

My id is overweight, he's a companion due to previous stifle ops and arthritis. I'm currently weighing his hay, no hard feed except a handful of greengold with his supps. Can't muzzle him as he gets very irrate and takes it out on my tb who when turned out can't be separated from!! He's not rugged, doesn't get overly hairy neither (he's xTBxWB) and is unclipped. I will rug him in a lw no fill on wet, windy days so he doesn't get a chill but otherwise will be unrugged all winter. To be honest he's big boned anyway, not cresty and his bums okay, just has a huge belly!! This is due to lack of work, hoping he'll be sound enough next spring to do something! The weight is coming off him, he now weighs 742kg on tape, he is 17hh!! He's dropped 10kgs in a fortnight and is not starving!! He's been wormed also!! Think it's due to weighing out hay and no rug! Oh and using an elimanet!! 
It is bl**dy hard shifting weight off them though!  My boy came to me obese and it's worse that he's not been able to be worked! Far easier keeping weight on my tb!!!!


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## Orangehorse (13 November 2011)

My horse has hardly any winter coat and is not clipped at the moment.  For the past week I have put on a rain sheet, and as soon as he has a rug on his starts to put on weight, so by not rugging he is obviously using up a lot of energy.

I think mine would eat 2 wedges of hay in about 1 hour and have nothing to eat for most of the night, I give him lots more than that, although I should weigh it, I know.


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## jenki13 (13 November 2011)

I don't think its cruel to chase clip & leave naked at this time. It was warm enough to be out in a t-shirt here today & it's not even freezing at night!!

My horse (3/4 tb) is currently out unrugged, although unclipped. She is overweight, and part the reason I've not put rug on her is so that she actually uses some energy to keep warm... also she can't get too warm else she gets scabby irritations.
It's no bad thing for any animal (inc. humans) to actually use their natural functions to keep warm & yes shivering is one of them! Along with burning fat to increase heat output through digestion, raising the hairs, and vasoconstriction & eventually acclimatisation! 

I would rather make my horse shiver occasionally/move around more in favour of starving her. Especially as she becomes a VERY moody mare if hungry / lethargic.


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## JFTDWS (13 November 2011)

Wagtail said:



			I'm confused with your smilies TBH. You appear to be having some sort of dig with the roll eyes and the winks. For the record, I was not trying to make anything personal. I was trying to reference our own human experiences relating to basic responses that are shared by other mammals. I find being cold enough to shiver highly unpleasant and assumed that others felt the same way. I thought the comment was constructive because I was trying to illustrate a point by drawing on a common human experience. You are honestly the first person I have 'met' who does not mind being cold enough to shiver (and remember when people inflict it on their horses, it is not just for an hour or two which humans usually endure. It is 24/7. No getting warm again by the fire.) You are honestly saying you would not mind that? That you would not find it unpleasant to be underclothed 24/7?

Sorry if you feel this was 'personal and unconstructive', but I have to disagree with you there.
		
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I don't find my use of smilies any more bizarre than yours!

Actually, I think by drawing comparison with my response to being cold is valid - though as I stated I don't mind it.  I would object to being seriously cold - hence why I wouldn't leave a horse fully clipped and naked in the snow (as I said previously) but the mild sort of cold you get outside at this time of year, no I honesty don't find it a problem.  We're not even talking about a full clip here - a partial clip.  I would be surprised if any horse, let alone a fat one, were to shiver on a night like this!

I object to the statement "Do you intentionally make your horses cold?" which is an unconstructive statement I think intentionally designed to make it sound as though I (that's me - personally) intentionally expose my horses to extremes of temperature for no reason.  Since that notion is absurd, I don't think it is constructive to make that comment.  

I am rolling my eyes at this thread - you contradicted yourself with your own link!


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## Dancing Queen (13 November 2011)

I dont know where you are - but my grass has stopped growing.

I would cut the hard feeds right down and reduce the amount of hay she is getting to perhaps 1 and half sections. try walking her out/lunging her (gently - 10 mins is enough) As for leaving her unrugged - at the moment its fairly warm for the time of year, I would be tempted to leave her unrugged and perhaps popping a fleece on at night whilst the temperatures are so balmy.
Keep a close eye on the weather and her weight. 

Over the winter all horses tend to drop a little weight - i would rather have a little weight on going into winter than coming out of winter into spring.


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## noblesteed (13 November 2011)

I don't know why people are arguing about shivering.

My horse (trace clipped and unrugged good-doer) does NOT shiver.

Not once have I found him standing looking miserable in his field shivering. Not once has his bed been churned up after a shivery night pacing around, unrugged in a freezing cold stable.
This is because he has a layer of FAT which keeps him warm! 
Once he slims down and he looks like he might be getting cold, or if the weather is snowy or wet and windy and he could get a chill, he gets lightly rugged, just enough to ensure he doesn't get too cold. I would never let my horse stand shivering in his field. Likewise should the temperatre drop below freezing at night he wears a light stable rug. I carefully manage his needs; he is happy, healthy and full of personality whatever the weather, and this tells me his needs are being met.

Implying that any unrugged clipped good-doer will be standing in it's field shivering miserably all winter is just nonsense!!!!! Maybe they might if they were utterly neglected but then their owners wouldn't be posting on here for advice would they?


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## JFTDWS (13 November 2011)

Very true, noblesteed.  I did say that I doubted any horse would be shivering now


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## Dancing Queen (13 November 2011)

JFTD said:



			Very true, noblesteed.  I did say that I doubted any horse would be shivering now 

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It was a lovely warm day today! xx


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## Wagtail (13 November 2011)

noblesteed said:



			I don't know why people are arguing about shivering.

My horse (trace clipped and unrugged good-doer) does NOT shiver.

Not once have I found him standing looking miserable in his field shivering. Not once has his bed been churned up after a shivery night pacing around, unrugged in a freezing cold stable.
This is because he has a layer of FAT which keeps him warm! 
Once he slims down and he looks like he might be getting cold, or if the weather is snowy or wet and windy and he could get a chill, he gets lightly rugged, just enough to ensure he doesn't get too cold. I would never let my horse stand shivering in his field. Likewise should the temperatre drop below freezing at night he wears a light stable rug. I carefully manage his needs; he is happy, healthy and full of personality whatever the weather, and this tells me his needs are being met.

Implying that any unrugged clipped good-doer will be standing in it's field shivering miserably all winter is just nonsense!!!!! Maybe they might if they were utterly neglected but then their owners wouldn't be posting on here for advice would they?
		
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You miss my point. I am not objecting to horses being unrugged with chaser clips. I am objecting to intentionally making them cold in order that they lose weight. As I said earlier, I doubt that in this mild weather the OP's horse is too cold. I am arguing againt the _principle_ of using cold to make a horse lose weight.


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## JFTDWS (13 November 2011)

Dancing Queen said:



			It was a lovely warm day today! xx
		
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I've just been out to rug up the (fully clipped and not overweight) pony in a t-shirt   I was practically boiling when I took them out this afternoon!    You'd never believe it was November! xx


eta - I did not "rug up the pony in a t-shirt", I was wearing the t shirt, he had a normal horse rug put on him


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## JFTDWS (13 November 2011)

Wagtail said:



			You miss my point. I am not objecting to horses being unrugged with chaser clips. I am objecting to intentionally making them cold in order that they lose weight. As I said earlier, I doubt that in this mild weather the OP's horse is too cold. I am arguing againt the _principle_ of using cold to make a horse lose weight.
		
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Ah but the right or wrong of any principle is based on the degree to which you apply it.  I mean to say that it is acceptable to exercise a horse to make it lose weight - that is right in principle.  It is unacceptable to work a horse until it collapses to make it lose weight - that is wrong in principle.

IMO it is acceptable to help a horse lose weight by not keeping it warm - i.e. allowing it to become colder than is optimal, so that it uses more energy keeping warm.  It is unacceptable to freeze it (e.g. full clipping in the snow) so that it is miserable.  The intermediates between that will be on a sliding scale of acceptablity depending on how desperately the horse needs to lose weight and how negatively it reacts to being cold (a fine skinned animal that stands at the gate shivering and looking depressed, vs a thick skinned native which carries on eating despite being cold and shivering).


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## Wagtail (13 November 2011)

JFTD said:



			Ah but the right or wrong of any principle is based on the degree to which you apply it.  I mean to say that it is acceptable to exercise a horse to make it lose weight - that is right in principle.  It is unacceptable to work a horse until it collapses to make it lose weight - that is wrong in principle.

IMO it is acceptable to help a horse lose weight by not keeping it warm - i.e. allowing it to become colder than is optimal, so that it uses more energy keeping warm.  It is unacceptable to freeze it (e.g. full clipping in the snow) so that it is miserable.  The intermediates between that will be on a sliding scale of acceptablity depending on how desperately the horse needs to lose weight and how negatively it reacts to being cold (a fine skinned animal that stands at the gate shivering and looking depressed, vs a thick skinned native which carries on eating despite being cold and shivering).
		
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I guess we all have our thresholds of acceptability.


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## JFTDWS (13 November 2011)

Wagtail said:



			I guess we all have our thresholds of acceptability.
		
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Quite.  People have different priorities in their management - some believe in routine above all else, some believe in what they perceive as their horse's happiness - and I personally have a big thing about equine obesity, probably because I have cobs and natives and a sort of vet background where I've been exposed to a lot of obese horses and the problems as a result.  It's inevitable that people's threshold will be influenced by what they perceive as the most important aspect of management


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## Natz88 (13 November 2011)

Every horse is different & we all know ours horses needs. One of mine isn't clipped & won't be clipped until new year as going to be turning him away for winter as he is only 4yrs old & he wears a l/w rug only becuase he is a big wimp if he gets wet he just stands at the gate shivering cold. Yet my mums cob is clipped & doesn't feel the cold, but he does still wear a l/w rug. Me personally wouldn't have my horses out if clipped without a rug unless it is a rather warm day, but thats my choice. I have a haflinger that is a lardy arse & has always been a lardy arse he isn't clipped yet & is like a teddy bear so won't be rugged until clipped. 

I do agree with the others about cutting down on the hay & try taking her out in hand or lunge her. 

Could always try weight watchers, althought not sure they take on horses


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## WelshTilly (13 November 2011)

Op i dont think your being cruel i think your being pragmatic - my moose is out during the day without a rug currently unless raining or v windy or both ( then she has a lightweight on) she has a blanket clip and is a Welsh x Tb v good doer who could do with still losing a few pounds however as it gets colder I'll re asses I did this on the advice of a friend who is a specialist equine vet. When in her stable she has a stable sheet /fleece on more because she is a messy wet mare


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## Merry Crisis (13 November 2011)

Yes, its a warm november so this argument is really not applicable. Suppose it was this time last year, would you all feel so complacent? Would you all say, yep leave the clipped horse out in minus 5 degrees? I believe that the wellfare of a horse begins BEFORE clipping to aid loss of weight, We could soon be in a freeze, who knows, we are coming into winter.


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## JFTDWS (13 November 2011)

lionman, if it freezes, I'm sure she can stick a rug on!


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## maggiesmum (13 November 2011)

OP I did exactly this to my sons pony a few years ago, we got part way into winter and she was too far on the heavy side despite being muzzled in the field and on rations in the stable, I started to worry about the spring grass coming through so during a mild few days I gave her a "big neck and belly / very low chaser" clip, she did start to steadily lose weight. When we had horrid days I put a light turnout sheet on her but she went naked in the stable and on dry days in the field.
It has to be a better option (obviously done with a mind to common sense) than chronic laminitis come spring! 
Just a thought though, has she been checked for insulin resistance? Just to be sure its not a metabolic problem which is affecting her weight?


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## jenki13 (13 November 2011)

lionman said:



			Yes, its a warm november so this argument is really not applicable. Suppose it was this time last year, would you all feel so complacent? Would you all say, yep leave the clipped horse out in minus 5 degrees? I believe that the wellfare of a horse begins BEFORE clipping to aid loss of weight, We could soon be in a freeze, who knows, we are coming into winter.
		
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But last winter the horses weight wasn't the problem it is this year probably because of the difference in weather! So, your argument isn't really applicable.

And as JFTD said if it freezes & the horse is really cold then she can stick a rug on it!


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## Tharg (14 November 2011)

Very interesting thread.

  I feel it is kinder to clip and have out with no rug than to risk laminitis.

  I wonder if a lot of people forget that horses produce a lot of heat due to being hindgut fermentors.

  Humans, on the other hand at not very economical in keeping warm.


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## MerrySherryRider (14 November 2011)

Tharg said:



			Very interesting thread.

  I feel it is kinder to clip and have out with no rug than to risk laminitis.

  I wonder if a lot of people forget that horses produce a lot of heat due to being hindgut fermentors.

  Humans, on the other hand at not very economical in keeping warm.
		
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This ^^^

 Like everything with horsecare, you take into consideration the weather, the amount of shelter and access to forage to balance the ability to remain comfortable. You know your horse, if he looks tucked up and miserable, he's uncomfortable. 
Weightape weekly, if he's dropping weight too quickly, then he's struggling to cope, but with a tracer clip, I doubt it.
Native good doers are a nightmare to keep slim. 

Rather than lunging, which with a heavy, unfit horse, could put a strain on his limbs, could you ride and lead ? Most horses take to it very well.
Practise in a safe area and get your OH to come with you (bikes are very handy). Leading off another horse is a good way to get fit gently, it saves time and also has the benefit of increasing the horse's metabolism and confidence.


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## Wagtail (14 November 2011)

This is a silly thread really because no, the arguments are not applicable because of the mild weather. Only three of my eight are rugged at the moment except for if it rains when they all have a lightweight. 

But the reason I think this thread is silly is that the OP clipped her horse to make it cold so it would lose weight. In this weather the horse would not be cold in any case! But what is even sillier, is that those who support her actions say she can put a rug on the horse if it gets cold!  Erm...wouldn't that then defeat the object of what she is trying to do? Therefore are you really supporting the practice of intentionally making a horse cold in order for it to lose weight?

A far better way of addressing this problem would be to exercise the horse. The horse ought to at least be lunged daily. Time consuming, I know, but far kinder than trying to shiver the weight off.


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## JFTDWS (14 November 2011)

Wagtail, sometimes I think you are deliberately obtuse. As I have taken some time to explain before, I do support the op's theory while the weather is reasonable (it will need to use more energy to keep warm without it's coat, even now, and as it gets colder). However, if it freezes as lionman implies, she can certainly stick a rug on to ensure the horse is kept colder than optimum temp (thus using energy to keep warm) but not to such a degree as to make the horse suffer. Is this a hard concept to grasp? You're entitled to your view that horses should always be kept at perfect temperatures so they never have to use energy to stay warm, but to damn the thread as pointless and suggest we are hypocritical or innately thick is really rather silly.


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## ester (14 November 2011)

I would like to thank you for saving my typing fingers several times on this thread JFTD  

Everything has degrees, most would not fully clip a horse and chuck it out in the snow and let it get proper cold and risk other problems. So if the horse looks UNREASONABLY cold you might put a rug on it. but for example there have been very few occasions when Frank, fully clipped has had anything more than a mediumweight on. Moderation is the key!

I suspect as a haffie it currently has more hair on the unclipped parts of its body than most have spread out around their whole body.


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## Amymay (14 November 2011)

Wagtail said:



			This is a silly thread really because no, the arguments are not applicable because of the mild weather. Only three of my eight are rugged at the moment except for if it rains when they all have a lightweight. 

But the reason I think this thread is silly is that the OP clipped her horse to make it cold so it would lose weight. In this weather the horse would not be cold in any case! But what is even sillier, is that those who support her actions say she can put a rug on the horse if it gets cold!  Erm...wouldn't that then defeat the object of what she is trying to do? Therefore are you really supporting the practice of intentionally making a horse cold in order for it to lose weight?

A far better way of addressing this problem would be to exercise the horse. The horse ought to at least be lunged daily. Time consuming, I know, but far kinder than trying to shiver the weight off.
		
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Gotta say, I do agree with you.


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## ester (14 November 2011)

I agree that exercise would be better. Am currently in the position that Frank cannot be worked and we also know that a lot of people struggle with exercise at this time of year (and I get  on here cos I go out before it gets light.) Hence people try and make a reasonable decision given what they can do. 
It might be warm now but I hoping upon hope it will get cold asap (which it really should do) so my boy has to keep himself a bit warmer and the grass will stop being so happy. Much better to clip the horse now though, when we have a few days of warmer weather as it will then be less of a shock when it gets a little chillier .


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## amandap (14 November 2011)

Some strong emotions involved here. 

Personally I prefer to leave unclipped and not rug, even my tb isn't rugged. If mine were in work that made them sweat a lot I would consider a clip.
I'm sure a clip that doesn't remove back hair or comes high on the sides is preferable to a full clip (clipped out to me) for a horse to be kept cooler as an aid to weight loss. I choose not to do this because hair is a major protection from the weather as well as an aid to thermoregulation, it stands up in wind and cold weather to form an air layer. Remove it and bare skin is exposed to the elements, this is the reason we rug. 

Tbh, I think we mess too much with heat regulation in our horses, rugs on and off when we think it's appropriate but what happens when we go home? How long are many actually with their horses in the 24 hour day? How long has the horse been shivering or sweating before we get there?

If a horse is very overweight it can't loose weight overnight it takes months so the spring grass is still going to be a problem. Weight loss and maintainance is imo a long term thing and finding a management that works in the long term is for me the way to go as opposed to the yo yo management that I used to have. 
Easy keepers are imo much more work for us... 

Just to add. I think using a clip as an aid should be a small part of weight management, diet and exercize should be the main focus.


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## Petalpoos (14 November 2011)

Gosh! Come back after a day and find my post has practically gone viral!

Anyway, thanks for all your comments. To answer a few questions: 

Clip - I have given her a low chaser clip, with her head left unclipped, so not that different from clipping a horse completely and having a rug on its back. She has a very thick coat and a copious mane that falls all the way down her neck on both sides and she is nearly always a bit sweaty under it. There is a large field shelter in her paddock and they go in it if it rains. I will keep an eye on her and will rug her if I have to, maybe, but probably only if it is very wet. Having seen herds of haffies standing out and looking quite happy in deep snow with temperatures well below freezing in Austria, I suspect that there will not be much that Sussex weather can do to her, even with a bare tummy and throat.

Exercise - I am going to start leading her out with my horse. Weak excuse maybe, but in summer I have to go through a large field of cows and both my horses are very wary of cows, with the one I ride actually being scared of them. I always thought it was the riders who were actually scared of cows, but have had to re-adjust that belief! The cows have now gone off to their barn for the winter so I can take Haffie with me.

Feed - I have cut her hay down and soak it, but won't go too far as I don't like leaving horses for hours with nothing to eat and she is in her stable for up to 12 hours at night. She gets no hard feed.

The basic problem really is that I have taken a horse bred for one situation (living in the mountains in Austria/Italy with hard work) and transported her to the lush lowlands of Sussex and an easy life. On reflection, I should probably have chosen the breed of my companion horse with more care, but most/all native types would probably have the same issues. 

I realise now that without exercise I am not going to be able to control her weight. I believe in keeping my horses for life so I will have to manage it and persuade my OH to hurry up and learn how to ride properly! He is off for lessons next week....


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## JFTDWS (14 November 2011)

Op, that all sounds very sensible.  Good luck.

Ester, sometimes I wonder if I'm losing the plot. It's always reassuring when you appear and say the same things


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## Wagtail (14 November 2011)

amymay said:



			Gotta say, I do agree with you.
		
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Thank you Amy.


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## MerrySherryRider (14 November 2011)

Spot on, you sound very sensible in your approach. Every horse I have from hairy natives to TB's seem to be good doers that only keep weight off with exercise and minimal/no rugging. 
 I think people sometimes forget horses are meant to live outside and therefore are much better at regulating their body temperature than we are. I could not live in a field through snow and storms even wearing the latest technology in outdoor clothing, but horses are designed to live that way.
 If farmers thought like horseowners, cattle would be rugged. Now there's a thought for the marketing people at weatherbeeta.


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## Petalpoos (14 November 2011)

horserider said:



			Ho ho 


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## Wagtail (14 November 2011)

Petalpoos said:



			Gosh! Come back after a day and find my post has practically gone viral!

Anyway, thanks for all your comments. To answer a few questions: 

Clip - I have given her a low chaser clip, with her head left unclipped, so not that different from clipping a horse completely and having a rug on its back. She has a very thick coat and a copious mane that falls all the way down her neck on both sides and she is nearly always a bit sweaty under it. There is a large field shelter in her paddock and they go in it if it rains. I will keep an eye on her and will rug her if I have to, maybe, but probably only if it is very wet. Having seen herds of haffies standing out and looking quite happy in deep snow with temperatures well below freezing in Austria, I suspect that there will not be much that Sussex weather can do to her, even with a bare tummy and throat.

Exercise - I am going to start leading her out with my horse. Weak excuse maybe, but in summer I have to go through a large field of cows and both my horses are very wary of cows, with the one I ride actually being scared of them. I always thought it was the riders who were actually scared of cows, but have had to re-adjust that belief! The cows have now gone off to their barn for the winter so I can take Haffie with me.

Feed - I have cut her hay down and soak it, but won't go too far as I don't like leaving horses for hours with nothing to eat and she is in her stable for up to 12 hours at night. She gets no hard feed.

The basic problem really is that I have taken a horse bred for one situation (living in the mountains in Austria/Italy with hard work) and transported her to the lush lowlands of Sussex and an easy life. On reflection, I should probably have chosen the breed of my companion horse with more care, but most/all native types would probably have the same issues. 

I realise now that without exercise I am not going to be able to control her weight. I believe in keeping my horses for life so I will have to manage it and persuade my OH to hurry up and learn how to ride properly! He is off for lessons next week....
		
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Excellent idea to lead out with your horse. I could not justify a clip on a horse unless it is to prevent excessive sweating during exercise. Hopefully the exercise will start to show results.


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## ester (14 November 2011)

lol at nagging the OH to hurry up and ride!


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## lachlanandmarcus (14 November 2011)

OP I think you have exactly the right idea, and your point about a clipped horse with a rug on still having a bare tum is very pertinent. 

As the owner of an overweight haffie who recently had a lami scare, I really sympathise with you. Ignore those who say 'would you do this to a person' - horses are NOT people and have a completely different system of warming (apparently 80% comes from food, only 20% from rugging). So if out grazing, they are very unlikely to be cold with a chaser clip if they are a fat cob unless it is both wet and windy, and then they have the shelter. It is FAR crueller to leave the pony at its current weight than to do a minimal clip in the current weather and in your set up where shelter is available.

A couple of tips from the dieting I have had to do with my girl. Do try and get hold of some oat straw. Altho its low in protein/vits/mins, so shouldnt be the sole forage it is much lower in energy than hay (even soaked) and will give your pony a longer and more satisfying chew if you mix it in with the soaked hay. 

Do try the grazing muzzle and persevere even if (like mine) they run away at the sight of the bright pink evil thing! After a few days they do adapt and get a reasonable amount of grass, but just a lot less/slower than without the muzzle. 

1.5% of bodyweight (for everything, all food incl grass) will lead to a steady weight loss, my Haffie has lost over 50kg so far tho she still has a reasonable way to go! Vet very happy with 1.5%. 

Assuming 1kg of grass per hour out grazing for 12 hours, with grass at 20% dry matter (rest water!) then 2.4kg comes from grass. If pony weighs 500kg (just as an eg) then 1.5% would be 7.5kg total so you would only want 5kg from all the rest of the feed. 5kg would be 2 haynets (normal not large nets). If you used straw the net might be a bit fuller as its bulkier. Can I recommend getting a hanging weigher - mine was less than £10 from ebay and its fantastic for shocking you into realising how heavy the weight of the net is!

I wish you all success with your dieting; exercise will really help too, and there is nothing cruel about your plans, only in being discouraged by silly anthropomorphic comments into not taking the necessary action to ensure your pony doesnt stay one of the 75% of overweight horses in this country. Good on you!


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## Queenbee (14 November 2011)

Wagtail said:



			This is a silly thread really because no, the arguments are not applicable because of the mild weather. Only three of my eight are rugged at the moment except for if it rains when they all have a lightweight. 

But the reason I think this thread is silly is that the OP clipped her horse to make it cold so it would lose weight. In this weather the horse would not be cold in any case! But what is even sillier, is that those who support her actions say she can put a rug on the horse if it gets cold!  Erm...wouldn't that then defeat the object of what she is trying to do? Therefore are you really supporting the practice of intentionally making a horse cold in order for it to lose weight?

A far better way of addressing this problem would be to exercise the horse. The horse ought to at least be lunged daily. Time consuming, I know, but far kinder than trying to shiver the weight off.
		
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I think we have established that the clip is a chaser,  so the horse will be cooler and therefore have to use up more energy to maintain its body heat but we would all agree, that even in weather cooler than we are experiencing at the moment, a Haffie with a chaser would be fine out unrugged.  It would not be cold, but it would be slightly cooler and the effect would be that more calories would be burnt whilst not discomforting the horse.  

I think that perhaps the problem here is 'wording'  I would have no problem performing this kind of intervention with a porker,  true I would first and foremost look at food, grazing, management and exercise first but quite possibly this sort of clip would factor in somewhere.  I would stand there and say, 'the little porker can shiver his fat off' but what I would really be doing is NOT trying to make the horse cold and uncomfortable, just trying to make it work a little bit harder and therefore use up calories.  Would I fully clip and turn out? NO!  In my opinion that is cruel, would I have a seconds thought about a chaser clip and unrugged combo?  No!  The horse isn't even out at night!

OP you do need to focus on other things though, ride and lead, long rein him, lunge, free school. Much more exercise, lots of hay soaking, 2 cakes and tripple haynetting, no hard  feed (unless something very light and only a handful (happy hoof/hi fi lite). 

Good luck


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## Queenbee (14 November 2011)

God, started to write this while reading page 9, then read OPs response on page 10! sounds like you have a good plan OP.

However, on some levels I do think that, how we interpret some posts is far more down to the wording of the post and is not alway reflective of the true intention of the OP


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## JFTDWS (14 November 2011)

queenbee said:



			However, on some levels I do think that, how we interpret some posts is far more down to the wording of the post and is not alway reflective of the true intention of the OP
		
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Actually, QB (seriously, am I stalking you this morning?) you raise a seriously good point there.

Most of the bickering I end up doing on here is because one party (myself or the other poster) is not clear in what they are saying / misinterprets the other's posts.  There is a tendancy for people to polarise their understanding of the opposing argument to extremes.

e.g. Wagtail leaps from a trace clipped pony out in the mild weather being encouraged to use its energy to keep warm, to a fully clipped pony shivering out in the snow.  The latter is irrelevant to the OP's question as to whether the former is acceptable.  However, the title of the thread and some of the OP may be misconstrued to suggest the OP is considering the latter situation, in which case Wagtail's comments would be important...  

Basically people should pay more attention to how they phrase things and how they would appear to others.  (Pot, kettle, black?)

You know what they say - the point of language is not to be understood, it's not to be misunderstood!


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## CeeBee (14 November 2011)

FAO Ester:
Sorry to hijack thread, but do you have a full picture of the horse in your avatar? Just being nosy as he has such a look of my lovely boy, who passed away 3 years ago...


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## karsl rowan (14 November 2011)

Hello sorry to gatecrash.......ive just joined H & H however im having a few problems posting!!! Can amyone  help me??
Again sorry for crashing x


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## scarymare (14 November 2011)

I haven't read the thread but strongly suggest that any overweight posters who support clipping and turning out naked in sub-zero temperatures wait until it snows and then go out starkers for a few days.  Guessing that would change your minds - even if you did lose the weight!


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## Petalpoos (14 November 2011)

CeeBee said:



			FAO Ester:
Sorry to hijack thread, but do you have a full picture of the horse in your avatar? Just being nosy as he has such a look of my lovely boy, who passed away 3 years ago...
		
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Sorry to hear that CeeBee. Yes, that's her, doing her dog impression. Sorry, but I have not quite worked out how to post pictures yet (!)


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## Queenbee (14 November 2011)

JFTD said:



			Actually, QB (seriously, am I stalking you this morning?) you raise a seriously good point there.

Most of the bickering I end up doing on here is because one party (myself or the other poster) is not clear in what they are saying / misinterprets the other's posts.  There is a tendancy for people to polarise their understanding of the opposing argument to extremes.

e.g. Wagtail leaps from a trace clipped pony out in the mild weather being encouraged to use its energy to keep warm, to a fully clipped pony shivering out in the snow.  The latter is irrelevant to the OP's question as to whether the former is acceptable.  However, the title of the thread and some of the OP may be misconstrued to suggest the OP is considering the latter situation, in which case Wagtail's comments would be important...  

Basically people should pay more attention to how they phrase things and how they would appear to others.  (Pot, kettle, black?)

You know what they say - the point of language is not to be understood, it's not to be misunderstood!
		
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I do NOT misinterpret posts

LOL


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## JFTDWS (14 November 2011)

queenbee said:



			I do NOT misinterpret posts

LOL

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that's why we don't bicker...

we just riff


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## Queenbee (14 November 2011)

JFTD said:



			that's why we don't bicker...

we just riff 

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you riff, and I will raff...


NO!

YOU raff and I will riff


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## JFTDWS (14 November 2011)

And together we're just riff raff


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## Queenbee (14 November 2011)

JFTD said:



			And together we're just riff raff 

Click to expand...


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## lachlanandmarcus (14 November 2011)

scarymare said:



			I haven't read the thread but strongly suggest that any overweight posters who support clipping and turning out naked in sub-zero temperatures wait until it snows and then go out starkers for a few days.  Guessing that would change your minds - even if you did lose the weight!
		
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Firstly it is very warm at the mo, and by the time it snows in OPs neck of the woods, half the fuzz will have grown back. And OP can rug in snow if they feel pony is cold. Secondly the pony is not naked, it has all of its coat except for a strip underneath. And a field shelter. And food, which gives 4/5 of warmth to horses. 

And lastly IT IS NOT A HUMAN IT IS A HORSE. 

#fin


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## MagicMelon (14 November 2011)

Personally, I'd rather not make my horse cold in order for him to lose weight. Definately reduce the amount of hay (and any hard feed) you're giving in the first instance. If the horse is out anyway then let him live off whats there. Are you able to ride? Exercise would be the ideal thing to do.


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## Wagtail (14 November 2011)

lachlanandmarcus said:



			Firstly it is very warm at the mo, and by the time it snows in OPs neck of the woods, half the fuzz will have grown back. 
Then why clip at all? The whole point of the original post was she was wanting the horse to lose weight because she would be colder.
And OP can rug in snow if they feel pony is cold. 

Wouldn't that defeat the object of wanting the horse to lose weight by making her cold?

Secondly the pony is not naked, it has all of its coat except for a strip underneath. And a field shelter. And food, which gives 4/5 of warmth to horses. Again, defeats the objective of the clip 

And lastly IT IS NOT A HUMAN IT IS A HORSE. fin
		
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So you don't think other animals might feel the same way as us when they feel pain or cold or the sweetness of an apple? 

For what it's worth, I think it is fine for a horse to be lightly clipped and out without a rug in this weather. But I do disagree with trying to make them lose weight by making them cold.


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## lachlanandmarcus (14 November 2011)

Wagtail said:



			So you don't think other animals might feel the same way as us when they feel pain or cold or the sweetness of an apple? 

For what it's worth, I think it is fine for a horse to be lightly clipped and out without a rug in this weather. But I do disagree with trying to make them lose weight by making them cold.
		
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I dont think the animal will feel either pain nor especially cold  in a human transposed way since we dont have fur on our backs or sides like this horse will continue to do (!), nor do our insides work the same, nor are apples really relevant. 

But I DO think it will keep the horse cooler than it currently is, and will assist if the necessary exercise regime is implemented to actually stop the horse getting chilled by being wet, and instead keep the animal on the cool side of warm so they use some energy staying warm from their feed and help avoid the animal actually continue to gain weight which is what is happening at the moment. 

If it was the only thing OP did to make the animal lose weight, or if it were a bigger clip, it would be very wrong, but as part of a program of feed cut, increased exercise and small clip then it can have a role and may even make the horse more comfy - especially as being overweight and with a Haffie coat they are going to sweat up the minute they break out of a walk. 

My Haffie is out unrugged in temps down to -20 (daytime!) every winter (we are in Cairngorms!). She gets way too hot when being ridden in the snow and I would certainly consider a neck and belly clip for her. I wouldnt have any issue about that and if it helped keep her trim as a side benefit I wouldn't feel guilty but instead would be way happier that she was a healthy weight than if she repeated the weight gain she put on last winter when we had 5 months of snow. 

The thing here is the horse will NOT necessarily be cold - they will be using their excess fat to keep them warm, thats the key and that is good for this horse and not bad for it in its individual circumstances.


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## cbmcts (14 November 2011)

I think people have to remember how little food these good doers need to maintain their weights. Fine when they're out on mountains or moors when they have to travel miles on poor grazing, they get more than enough fibre with very little goodness in it and a fair bit of low impact exercise to boot.

However, they way we have to keep ours (generally) which means that they are restricted to small paddocks and standing in overnight which means that we supplement with forage so they stay healthy, both physically and mentally. Even the oldest, driest hay has 10 times the nutritional value of what these types are designed to eat...so human intervention becomes essential as their weight blooms!

Like any diet be it human or equine, there has to be an element of restriction of calories and an upping of exercise. If this isn't balanced properly, there is a danger of damaging the pony - either by putting the joints of a fat pony under too much pressure and causing injury (seen this a lot!), bringing on concussive laminitis with too much trotting on hard surfaces in an already borderline laminitic or by restricting forage to an extent that causes ulcers and behavioural problems. There are equines out there that can put on weight despite muzzling, paradise paddock systems, soaked hay, living out 24/7 and daily work - I know I have one!I spent an entire winter riding in the dark...no fun but he enjoyed it!

In those cases, you do whatever you need to do to keep the dreaded laminitis away. The Blue Cross, D&H and my vet all recommended that my boy was TRACE clipped and left unrugged. As it happened, he was  LW rugged in prolonged wet weather as he is prone to rain scald but as soon as it dried up, off came the rug. That was 2 years ago in the first bad winter - and despite all the above he only dropped 50 much needed to go kgs...what do others suggest you do? People really don't realise how bloody hard it is.


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