# Horses for Meat



## Blacklist (16 June 2010)

I am probably opening a LARGE CAN OF WORMS, here goes:

What does the forum think on the subject of eating horses. If a horse has had a good life and is humanely slaughtered here in UK then exported for meat to the Continent - why is the right/wrong? and why don't we eat horseflesh here in the UK. Is is not really any different to an agricultural meat animal - except we ride them.


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## pastie2 (16 June 2010)

Itcould be due to the fact that you cant domesticate a cow sheep or pig in the same way as a horse. Horses have been servants to man for thousands of years, wars, farming transport to name a few. Cattle and other farm animal are bred for food. Other countries have a differant attitude to horse meat, but in this country it has never really been accepted as the norm. I personally could never eat horse meat any more than I could eat dog meat, which is also exepted in the far east.


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## LauraWheeler (16 June 2010)

I don't have a problem with other people eating horse meat if they want to (if it is all done humanely ofcourse) But i just couldn't do it myself. When i even think about it i just see Lucy  she was destined for the meat man when i got her and just look at the life she's had.  It would be like eating my own family.


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## jack9 (16 June 2010)

i just have a problem with horses being transported for miles to be slaughtered.

If they are slaughtered over here.... then meat shipped then imo thats acceptable.

Horse slaughter is necessary....not a nice thing but its necessary.


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## *hic* (16 June 2010)

It doesn't bother me. I keep sheep and pigs for meat and I give them the best life / living conditions possible and ensure that they have a quiet respectful death. I don't get attached to them. I find myself more empathetic towards horses and wouldn't feel able to eat any of my current animals which are all very much pets or friends. I suppose what I mean is that I have a relationship with them beyond my being the giver of food and them responding to that. I suppose I could possibly run a couple of youngsters and grow them for meat but I do suspect I would find myself becoming friends with them too - and that would make it difficult.

I prefer not to take my animals elsewhere for slaughter as they are not used to travelling and I don't see why they should be stressed and upset on their way to their death. Whilst I could get a couple of young horses used to travelling that would imply them having a level of trust in me that would mean we had an understanding relationship and that would be back to making it difficult to eat them.


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## pastie2 (16 June 2010)

Just to add, commercial animals such as beef, lambs etc, are slaughtered at a very young age. To slaughter a horse of say 19 yrs old after it has had a useful life on this earth it would be as tough as old boots. So that brings it round to breeding them for meat inthe first place and slautering them at a young age.


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## *hic* (16 June 2010)

pastie2 said:



			Just to add, commercial animals such as beef, lambs etc, are slaughtered at a very young age. To slaughter a horse of say 19 yrs old after it has had a useful life on this earth it would be as tough as old boots. So that brings it round to breeding them for meat inthe first place and slautering them at a young age.
		
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We kill our old sheep for meat. Mutton is quite sought after nowadays and properly prepared and cooked appropriately is no tougher than lamb. You need a decent butcher who knows how to make the most of the meat but well cooked mutton is an extremely nice meal. There's no reason why properly butchered, kept and cooked horse meat should be tough as old boots.


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## KitKat_89 (16 June 2010)

I have never eaten horse, I think I would like to try it one day, just to satisfy my curiosity 

And pastie, I think any 19yo horse that gets slaughtered will be dogfood! as you say, it will be tough and no good.

I dont see to much differance in breeding horses for meat than cattle, it has been pointed out that horses have been used for many purposes - Eg: agricultural, but so have cattle and oxen.

I also dont see how other animals cannot be domesticated the same way as horses - any that are shown have to be pretty tame and I have seen (on TV) pigs that are better trained and more sociable than many dogs I know.....

In short - why are horses so special?


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## pastie2 (16 June 2010)

jemima_too said:



			We kill our old sheep for meat. Mutton is quite sought after nowadays and properly prepared and cooked appropriately is no tougher than lamb. You need a decent butcher who knows how to make the most of the meat but well cooked mutton is an extremely nice meal. There's no reason why properly butchered, kept and cooked horse meat should be tough as old boots.
		
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I understand what you are saying. A lot of people will eat mutton, but you will never see it in the supermarkets. But if we opened the barrier for horse meat in this country, and look at the big picture, it wouldnt be long before we are breeding and farming horses simply for food. I dont know about you, but I somehow find it unexeptable.


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## mtj (16 June 2010)

KitKat_89 said:



			I have never eaten horse, I think I would like to try it one day, just to satisfy my curiosity 

And pastie, I think any 19yo horse that gets slaughtered will be dogfood! as you say, it will be tough and no good.

I dont see to much differance in breeding horses for meat than cattle, it has been pointed out that horses have been used for many purposes - Eg: agricultural, but so have cattle and oxen.

I also dont see how other animals cannot be domesticated the same way as horses - any that are shown have to be pretty tame and I have seen (on TV) pigs that are better trained and more sociable than many dogs I know.....

In short - why are horses so special?
		
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If you eaten Chorizo or  Italian sausage you've probably already munched an  equine!


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## pastie2 (16 June 2010)

KitKat_89 said:



			I have never eaten horse, I think I would like to try it one day, just to satisfy my curiosity 

And pastie, I think any 19yo horse that gets slaughtered will be dogfood! as you say, it will be tough and no good.

I dont see to much differance in breeding horses for meat than cattle, it has been pointed out that horses have been used for many purposes - Eg: agricultural, but so have cattle and oxen.

I also dont see how other animals cannot be domesticated the same way as horses - any that are shown have to be pretty tame and I have seen (on TV) pigs that are better trained and more sociable than many dogs I know.....

In short - why are horses so special?
		
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I simply dispair. This post does not warant a reply.


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## Honey08 (16 June 2010)

I've nothing against eating any animal if it has a good life and is humainly killed, without the massive trek to the slaughter house... I wouldn't eat anything battery farmed, or cruelly reared, like foie gras or veal.  I'd rather a horse be killed for meat, than live its life in pain or suffering..

I ate horsemeat in France years ago.  Didn't taste much different to beef really.


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## thatsmygirl (16 June 2010)

I would like to try it, just to see what I tastes like.


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## Blacklist (16 June 2010)

pastie2 said:



			Itcould be due to the fact that you cant domesticate a cow sheep or pig in the same way as a horse. Horses have been servants to man for thousands of years, wars, farming transport to name a few. Cattle and other farm animal are bred for food. Other countries have a differant attitude to horse meat, but in this country it has never really been accepted as the norm. I personally could never eat horse meat any more than I could eat dog meat, which is also exepted in the far east.
		
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You can domesticate any 'Farm' animal in the same way. In the 1970's a local farmer actually broke a cow rode it and jumped it I think it was featured on 'Blue Peter'


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## Mrs B (16 June 2010)

I have no problem with horse meat either, if, as Honey says, it has had a good life, a short, sympathetic trip to slaughter and a humanely handled death.

I would much prefer this than to see how some horses end up - neglected, ignored, beaten, starved and abandoned by humans they once trusted. That herd of piebalds on the thread here the other day, in such awful condition.... What's better?

And yes, I've eaten horse meat.


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## Blacklist (16 June 2010)

pastie2 said:



			Just to add, commercial animals such as beef, lambs etc, are slaughtered at a very young age. To slaughter a horse of say 19 yrs old after it has had a useful life on this earth it would be as tough as old boots. So that brings it round to breeding them for meat inthe first place and slautering them at a young age.
		
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Not true - apparantly older horses are not tough, a horses meat ages in a different way to cattle etc, they can be tender at 20.


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## pastie2 (16 June 2010)

Blacklist said:



			You can domesticate any 'Farm' animal in the same way. In the 1970's a local farmer actually broke a cow rode it and jumped it I think it was featured on 'Blue Peter'
		
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Yes but this is not really the norm is it, I have a pet ram who is 13 yrs old, due to circumstances beyond his control. If I let him out with the other sheep he would soon revert to a normal sheep. A horse wouldnt.


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## Biscuit (16 June 2010)

I do not have a problem with horse meat being eaten, I am more concerned that they (as well as any other animals) have a good life as long as they are alive. 

I agree with the posters above who mentioned that there may be issues concerning transporting the horses to the continent for meat production. I would also be concerned about handling and the standards at the abattoirs in countries that aren't as animal friendly as the UK.


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## Spudlet (16 June 2010)

Horse meat - fine.

Long distance transportation of horses to slaughter,  with all that does with it - terrified horses, packed into tiny spaces, terrible injuries, diseases because the stress kills their immune systems, no water, no rest, no food - not fine at all. www.worldhorsewelfare.org for more on how to help end these journeys, which are happening in Europe as we type.

But horse meat itself - fine. I probably wouldn't choose to eat it. But have no problem with others doing so as long as the horses didn't suffer in the process of producing it.


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## Biscuit (16 June 2010)

pastie2, I don't consider sheep or cows "lesser" animals than horses and would be just as concerned about welfare standards and humane handling for them. If you observe them closely you will see that they have personalities just like horses.


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## lannerch (16 June 2010)

Aparently horse meat is about its best around the age of 7 however it can be eaten older as long as the horse has not been subjected to hard work. So probably the horse of 19 may not be as good as a younger version.

I have no problem of horses being slaughtered for meat as long as they have been correctly cared for, and slaughtered locally,  much the same as I do not have a problem of pigs, sheep and cows being slaughtered for meat, I would not choose to eat horse meat though but that is because I cannot dissociate it from my own horse out in the field, although I must confess I love chorzo.

Farm animals can certainly be domesticated much the same as horses, pigs prehaps  more so as they are very intellegent do you remember it used to be trendy to have a pot bellied pig as a pet.


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## rosie fronfelen (16 June 2010)

i wont eat horsemeat in any form, in revolting italian form, chorizo or any dodgy stuff- end of--


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## Malibu_Stacy (16 June 2010)

I don't agree with it at all (in fact just thinking about it makes me feel slightly queasy, like thinking about someone eating a family member) BUT I feel pretty much the same about eating any meat (I'm a vegan), so at least I'm consistent!

Ironically the thinking that many of the posters are giving here as to why eating horse-meat is acceptable is part of the reason I became veggie in the first place.  I knew I could never eat horse as interacted, become attached, and knew that they were individuals, but then thought I'd probably feel the same about a pet cow or sheep if I had one!


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## pastie2 (16 June 2010)

_CJ_ said:



			pastie2, I don't consider sheep or cows "lesser" animals than horses and would be just as concerned about welfare standards and humane handling for them. If you observe them closely you will see that they have personalities just like horses.
		
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For gods sake I have farmed most of my life, you can not afford to have "personalities" in farming, its a hand to mouth existence. My entire family have been envolved in farming. You dont have time to form a bond with 2,000 sheep. I am in the real world. I would just like to separate my interest, horses with commercial animals. Yes farm animals here are treated with respect, they have everythingthat they deserve.


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## Spudlet (16 June 2010)

My view is once the animal is dead that's it - you can't hurt it any more and whether you eat it or not makes no odds to that animal. I have seen plenty of footage of animal slaughter - including horses - and when it's done well, I hav no problem with it.

I probably have eaten horsemeat unknowingly in Italy, but I wouldn't choose to eat it knowingly. That's my choice though. It's partly because as the law stands at the moment, there's no way to know where a horse has come from - the food labelling law only shows where the animal was slaughtered and not where it was raised - so there's no way to know if the horse one is eating is a horse that has travelled hundreds of miles, passing hundreds of slaughterhouses that could have taken it...


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## beeswax (16 June 2010)

The difference between cows, sheep and pigs going to slaughter to feed mankind is that these animals were created for this purpose 2 hooved animals, they do not have the flight fright mind, whereas horses being a full hooved animal were created to carry man to fight his enemy and therefore this bond was formed.  Yes horses not only carried their rider for many miles but they also did feed their rider at the end of the day when the rider (being in the army) had nothing left to survive on.  The problem with the flight fright is that they do not do well at abbatoirs.  Whilst i agree i would rather see them killed than suffer without food or water etc, but it is the fear that they have when at the abbatoir and the person pulling the gun bolt is a human they trusted in.  I would say, but could be wrong, please correct me but 80% of horses sent to slaughter have been handled by man and were not bred for the meat trade and therefore had no dealings with man.  It is a sad situation really and could cause a lot of upsets amongst good friends.


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## pastie2 (16 June 2010)

Spudlet said:



			My view is once the animal is dead that's it - you can't hurt it any more and whether you eat it or not makes no odds to that animal. I have seen plenty of footage of animal slaughter - including horses - and when it's done well, I hav no problem with it.

I probably have eaten horsemeat unknowingly in Italy, but I wouldn't choose to eat it knowingly. That's my choice though. It's partly because as the law stands at the moment, there's no way to know where a horse has come from - the food labelling law only shows where the animal was slaughtered and not where it was raised - so there's no way to know if the horse one is eating is a horse that has travelled hundreds of miles, passing hundreds of slaughterhouses that could have taken it...

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When the horse is dead its dead, I know that, but dont you think allowing horses to be reared and bred for meat in this country that it would be the thin end of the wedge. More and more dealers would appear on the scene, fields will be full of horses fattening for slaughter, just look at the bigger picture. What do you think Jamie Grays business was!


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## KitKat_89 (16 June 2010)

pastie2 said:



			I simply dispair. This post does not warant a reply.
		
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LOL 

I just want to clarify (not that it makes much differance) but i feel there is a differance between eating your lifelong pet and companion, and eating horsemeat, from an animal that was bred and raised for that purpose, and has not know the kind of relationship with people that a pet or competition horse would.

And pastie - Thanks for replying to my post, unwarranted as it was


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## Spudlet (16 June 2010)

It's true that horses are physically and physiologically different to other farm animals - they have a higher centre of gravity and inherently unstable body shape, which makes them nimbler and faster than cows etc, but also less well adapted to long journeys - and higher levels of stress hormones making them faster to react to unfamiliar situations. These are just a couple of reasons why it is wrong to transport them over long distances for slaughter.

However if you look at footage from Potters, you will see no fear or panic - just calm and humane handling, IME. The humane slaughter of horses is not the issue. It is the potential suffering caused by excessive journeys that is the big problem.


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## KitKat_89 (16 June 2010)

skolliecrubycben said:



			The difference between cows, sheep and pigs going to slaughter to feed mankind is that these animals were created for this purpose 2 hooved animals, they do not have the flight fright mind, whereas horses being a full hooved animal were created to carry man to fight his enemy and therefore this bond was formed.  Yes horses not only carried their rider for many miles but they also did feed their rider at the end of the day when the rider (being in the army) had nothing left to survive on.  The problem with the flight fright is that they do not do well at abbatoirs.  Whilst i agree i would rather see them killed than suffer without food or water etc, but it is the fear that they have when at the abbatoir and the person pulling the gun bolt is a human they trusted in.  I would say, but could be wrong, please correct me but 80% of horses sent to slaughter have been handled by man and were not bred for the meat trade and therefore had no dealings with man.  It is a sad situation really and could cause a lot of upsets amongst good friends.
		
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Pmsl, well then we deffinately shouldnt ride camals! And I can tell you, plenty of sheep and cattle have a flight or fight mind! Unfortunately in some situations...... It would make an easy life farming if they didnt!


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## Spudlet (16 June 2010)

pastie2 said:



			When the horse is dead its dead, I know that, but dont you think allowing horses to be reared and bred for meat in this country that it would be the thin end of the wedge. More and more dealers would appear on the scene, fields will be full of horses fattening for slaughter, just look at the bigger picture. What do you think Jamie Grays business was!
		
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Horses _are_ slaughtered in this country for meat, and the meat is exported. I have no issue with this. Jamie Gray was hardly going to make meat money off starving horses - as the recent H&H investigative articles say, that is not an explanation for what happened there.

At the end of the day, humane slaughter is not even on the top ten of bad things that can happen to horses, unfortunately. It is the world in which we live.


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## Honey08 (16 June 2010)

Spudlet I agree.  I disagree with ANY animal travelling long journeys for slaughter.  

Bad breeder-dealers already breed horses that shouldn't be bred. I went to York horse sales for the first time the other week, and somoe of the sorry states there were awful - I was almost hoping they went for meat in some cases. 

I wouldn't be suprised if most people have eaten horse in some form of burger or sausage at some point in the past.  Nobody cared so much about generics in the past..


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## Donkeymad (16 June 2010)

skolliecrubycben said:



			The difference between cows, sheep and pigs going to slaughter to feed mankind is that these animals were created for this purpose 2 hooved animals, they do not have the flight fright mind, whereas horses being a full hooved animal were created to carry man to fight his enemy and therefore this bond was formed.  Yes horses not only carried their rider for many miles but they also did feed their rider at the end of the day when the rider (being in the army) had nothing left to survive on.  The problem with the flight fright is that they do not do well at abbatoirs.  Whilst i agree i would rather see them killed than suffer without food or water etc, but it is the fear that they have when at the abbatoir and the person pulling the gun bolt is a human they trusted in.  I would say, but could be wrong, please correct me but 80% of horses sent to slaughter have been handled by man and were not bred for the meat trade and therefore had no dealings with man.  It is a sad situation really and could cause a lot of upsets amongst good friends.
		
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LOL. You either have to laugh or cry at this, I decided to laugh!

Veal these days is more often than not raised in good conditions, and need no longer be avoided at all costs. I would check where it comes from though.

As to horsemeat, providing it has been slaughtered humanely and not transported hundreds of miles in bad conditions, there really is nothing wrong with it, if you choose to eat it (I don't, but...)


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## pastie2 (16 June 2010)

Spudlet said:



			Horses _are_ slaughtered in this country for meat, and the meat is exported. I have no issue with this. Jamie Gray was hardly going to make meat money off starving horses - as the recent H&H investigative articles say, that is not an explanation for what happened there.

At the end of the day, humane slaughter is not even on the top ten of bad things that can happen to horses, unfortunately. It is the world in which we live.
		
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Do you not think that there are many farmers looking after their cattle and sheep in the same way as JG. I can assure you that there are many, when the market goes down so does the income for these farmers, they just cannot afford to feed them. Anyway would you really like to be in the countryside with field after field of farmed horses. Cattle are looked after in a completely differant way than horses. Would you really like a farmer next to your land breeding for meat. Blimeythere is enough of a fuss on here if someone sees a horse with the wrong bloody rug on in a field!!!


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## Spudlet (16 June 2010)

Pastie, I assure you, I am being honest - horses bred for meat being treated humanely would not bother me. Fields of meat horses? - fine. As long as they are treated well - which does not necessarily mean being treated as riding horses are. A horse that has lived out in a herd with enough food, water, shelter etc has had a pretty good life IMO.  

Horses of any kind being treated badly does bother me, and I take action when I see such things accordingly. I am not stupid, and I am not posting from a position of ignorance.

A question - what do you think happens to dartmoor hill ponies? Many of them go for meat. So in effect we already breed for meat in this country.


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## noblesteed (16 June 2010)

NO!! Chorizo doesn't have horse in it!! It is made from pork.

The only product sold in the UK that can legally contain horsemeat is salami.

I read that somewhere... it had better be true cos I love chorizo!!!

I won't eat horse, neither would I eat dog or cat. Anything that I had made friends with. I didn't used to eat lamb or beef til I realised that if they weren't bred for meat farmers wouldn't really breed them at all. I'd rather see fields full of animals and farmers making a living. It's different with horses, because they are bred to work or as 'pets', not for meat (in this country). If they were bred for meat I might consider eating them - if I didn't own one!!!


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## KitKat_89 (16 June 2010)

pastie2 said:



			Do you not think that there are many farmers looking after their cattle and sheep in the same way as JG. I can assure you that there are many, when the market goes down so does the income for these farmers, they just cannot afford to feed them. Anyway would you really like to be in the countryside with field after field of farmed horses. Cattle are looked after in a completely differant way than horses. Would you really like a farmer next to your land breeding for meat. Blimeythere is enough of a fuss on here if someone sees a horse with the wrong bloody rug on in a field!!!
		
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??? Im not sure I quite understand you post pastie...

I imagine horses bred specifically for meat would be raised in very similar ways to beef cattle....?

What a farmer choses to do on his land is little of anyone elses business providing it is lawful, and I highly doubt our countryside will ever be filled with field after field of farmed horses - people can only eat so much meat! And I dont see a taste for beef and lamb disappearing overnight.

I think spudlets point is that if the slaughter is humane and as stress free transport wise as possible there shouldnt be a problem, I imagine this feeling would extend to all other animals for slaughter, or are you horse-biased spudlet?


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## Spudlet (16 June 2010)

Nope, I like all my meat as local and happy as possible. I probably wouldn't eat horsemeat because of the labelling issues I mentioned earlier though.

Horses do react v badly to long distance transport to slaughter, but then again so do pigs (to take a random example). So I prefer local meat whenever possible.


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## KitKat_89 (16 June 2010)

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## Blacklist (16 June 2010)

I have been enlightened by the majority of comments on my post. Maybe there should be a UK market for horse meat to be eaten here.

Just a thought though - there seems to be a lot of talk about transporting horses hundreds of miles for slaughter but I wonder how many horses are travelled hundreds of miles for competition within the UK?


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## lannerch (16 June 2010)

horses transported hundreds of miles for compitition are generally transported in more comfortable plush roomy conditions and with more breaks than those going hundreds of miles for meat, additionally the compitition horess are given adequate breaks, food and water as they need to arrive at their destination in performance condition!


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## Honey08 (16 June 2010)

I suppose the difference between a slaughter horse and a top horse traveling for competitions is the care and conditions that go into the journey...

You did open a can of worms with this thread didn't you!

I went on a training camp once, with a top eventer teaching the xc.  He liked my horse aged 7, and asked if I would sell him.  The horse is so good I love him, and can do any sphere I want, but I said that I felt as though I ought to sell him as I'd never go as far with her as he would.  He very honestly pointed out that he would have a much better life with me, and not get worked as hard etc..  It did make me think.


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## Spudlet (16 June 2010)

Blacklist said:



			I have been enlightened by the majority of comments on my post. Maybe there should be a UK market for horse meat to be eaten here.

Just a thought though - there seems to be a lot of talk about transporting horses hundreds of miles for slaughter but I wonder how many horses are travelled hundreds of miles for competition within the UK?
		
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It's not the same - the conditions are incomparable.

Think about it - when you transport a horse to compete, or to race, or to breed, you need to arrive in a fit state to perform. So it gets plenty of space, rest, water, a well ventilated lorry etc.

A horse going to slaughter need only be fit to die.

Slaughter horses on the Continent get the bare minimum _if they are lucky_. The minimum legal space allowance for a horse is 70cm wide. Would you travel a horse in such a tigh partition for 24 hours? Cos I wouldn't! 

The unlucky ones get even less space than that. They don't stop. They aren't offered water or food. They are packed in with other, strange horses, and they can't escape, so they fight over the top of the partitions. 

http://www.youtube.com/user/horsecharity#p/u/16/ydk-uMEKngs This video shows what I mean.


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## Doncella (16 June 2010)

Historically we have never eaten horsemeat in the UK because as an island race we have never been held to siege except for during the Second World War and into the 1950's when horsemeat was off the ration.
However, on the Continent where various nation states were constantly at war with their neighbours or in Napoleons case Russia, armies in retreat and starving towns and outlying areas were constantly forced to eat their horses, molluscs and frogs etc. until it became the norm.


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## pastie2 (16 June 2010)

Spudlet said:



			Pastie, I assure you, I am being honest - horses bred for meat being treated humanely would not bother me. Fields of meat horses? - fine. As long as they are treated well - which does not necessarily mean being treated as riding horses are. A horse that has lived out in a herd with enough food, water, shelter etc has had a pretty good life IMO.  

Horses of any kind being treated badly does bother me, and I take action when I see such things accordingly. I am not stupid, and I am not posting from a position of ignorance.

A question - what do you think happens to dartmoor hill ponies? Many of them go for meat. So in effect we already breed for meat in this country.
		
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I am well aware of the Dartmoor herd and the welsh ponies on the Brecon Hills, do you feel comfortable looking at such animals in a pen? Do you think that they have had an easy life? I have seen them at Carlisle sales, the meat man from the continant is there with his huge wagon with another huge trailer behind it. Do these ponies look like they have been looked after, do you think that their welfare has been paramount to the BREEDERS of these ponies. If the market is opened up to breed ponies for meat in this country, the welfare of these animals will be compromised.


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## Blacklist (16 June 2010)

Spudlet said:



			It's not the same - the conditions are incomparable.

Think about it - when you transport a horse to compete, or to race, or to breed, you need to arrive in a fit state to perform. So it gets plenty of space, rest, water, a well ventilated lorry etc.

A horse going to slaughter need only be fit to die.

Slaughter horses on the Continent get the bare minimum _if they are lucky_. The minimum legal space allowance for a horse is 70cm wide. Would you travel a horse in such a tigh partition for 24 hours? Cos I wouldn't! 

The unlucky ones get even less space than that. They don't stop. They aren't offered water or food. They are packed in with other, strange horses, and they can't escape, so they fight over the top of the partitions. 

http://www.youtube.com/user/horsecharity#p/u/16/ydk-uMEKngs This video shows what I mean.
		
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Fistly my post was on the subject of horse slaughter in the UK - please don't misunderstand me I AM NOT in favour of travelling any 'meat' animal abroad for slaughter

In some cases the conditions are comparable (and not all competition horses are treated well when travelling especially if they are lorry or class fillers).  In the UK there are maybe 6 horse slaughter houses so in some cases a horse may have to travel 200 miles plus for slaughter - UK rules state that all animals transported for long distances especially equines have to be properly rested etc whether travelling for competition or otherwise. 

All our horses when the time comes travel to Derbyshire 70 miles away for humane slaughter - they live a good life. I would much rather they have one bad day in their lives (if they have to) after a good life than be passed around the auctions and ill-treated.


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## Blacklist (16 June 2010)

pastie2 said:



			I am well aware of the Dartmoor herd and the welsh ponies on the Brecon Hills, do you feel comfortable looking at such animals in a pen? Do you think that they have had an easy life? I have seen them at Carlisle sales, the meat man from the continant is there with his huge wagon with another huge trailer behind it. Do these ponies look like they have been looked after, do you think that their welfare has been paramount to the BREEDERS of these ponies. If the market is opened up to breed ponies for meat in this country, the welfare of these animals will be compromised.
		
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If we opened things up in the UK it might make things better for the horse and put a stop to LIVE EXPORT for slaughter.


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## Tinseltoes (16 June 2010)

rosiefronfelen said:



			i wont eat horsemeat in any form, in revolting italian form, chorizo or any dodgy stuff- end of--
		
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Nor me,could NEVER eat it.
.If you eat Italian Salami,your eating horse/donkey,foal. REALLY ITS TRUE.


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## Blacklist (16 June 2010)

Doncella said:



			Historically we have never eaten horsemeat in the UK because as an island race we have never been held to siege except for during the Second World War and into the 1950's when horsemeat was off the ration.
However, on the Continent where various nation states were constantly at war with their neighbours or in Napoleons case Russia, armies in retreat and starving towns and outlying areas were constantly forced to eat their horses, molluscs and frogs etc. until it became the norm.
		
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Up until a Papal ban of horse meat in 732 it was regulaly eaten in the British Isles and it continued in some parts until the middle ages.


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## pastie2 (16 June 2010)

Blacklist said:



			Fistly my post was on the subject of horse slaughter in the UK - please don't misunderstand me I AM NOT in favour of travelling any 'meat' animal abroad for slaughter

In some cases the conditions are comparable (and not all competition horses are treated well when travelling especially if they are lorry or class fillers).  In the UK there are maybe 6 horse slaughter houses so in some cases a horse may have to travel 200 miles plus for slaughter - UK rules state that all animals transported for long distances especially equines have to be properly rested etc whether travelling for competition or otherwise. 

All our horses when the time comes travel to Derbyshire 70 miles away for humane slaughter - they live a good life. I would much rather they have one bad day in their lives (if they have to) after a good life than be passed around the auctions and ill-treated.
		
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Cattle are taken to market, sheep are taken to market, what makes you think that horses would go directly to the slaughter house. There has to be a market or else how would the meat man know what he was buying. That is if we are treating horses as a food product. They will be produced the same as sheep or cattle. Anyway why are you taking all your horses to slaughter, you sound like a meat dealer already. Are these your horses?


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## Umbongo (16 June 2010)

Blacklist said:



			Up until a Papal ban of horse meat in 732 it was regulaly eaten in the British Isles and it continued in some parts until the middle ages.
		
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Agree, historically horse meat was eaten regularly until that ban.

Also, blind meat tasting in Italy has shown that meat from older horses (particularly over 8-10 years) actually tastes nicer and is more tender than younger meat.

I would eat horse meat if offered to try it, and no doubt I have eaten it in Italian sausage.
I really don't mind horses being used for meat so long as they are well treated and are humanely slaughtered without any stress and are then transported once dead. Long and stressful transport conditions are also detrimental to meat quality, same with cattle, sheep and pigs in this country.

I have been to potters and the horses are humanely slaughtered and are very well looked after, many of them grazing out in the fields around the site beforehand.

The UK has a huge taboo over eating horse meat as we have such a huge Equine Industry, and fair enough. I could not kill and eat my horse like I could with a chicken. I have seen herds of horses farmed for meat in Poland and it is no different to farmers having cattle in the UK.


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## Mrs B (16 June 2010)

sharon1959 said:



			Nor me,could NEVER eat it.
.If you eat Italian Salami,your eating horse/donkey,foal. REALLY ITS TRUE.
		
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And, your point is? I take it you eat meat? You make it sound like your personal pet is being taken to put through the mincer! Horses make good meat. We domesticated them in the first place because of this, THEN we found we could train and ride them. They don't HAVE to be domesticated, trained and ridden any more than sheep, cattle or camels do. It's what we CHOOSE to do to them - to teach them that humans are okay and form a relationship with them. 

Pastie, the sheep on the farm where my horse is kept are born and raised here, but they do NOT go to market. The meat man comes to the farm, checks them over, offers a price and they go directly to slaughter.


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## Umbongo (16 June 2010)

Also the UK is very good for its abattoirs. I read some research saying that in Brazil, about 80% is (cant quite remember the figures) did not die on the first attempt....and about 57% of the horses returned to some sort of sensibility (neighing) whilst hung on the hooks (supposedly dead).

and agree with above, horses were domesticated in the first place so humans could use them for meat. Who are we to say that the rest Europe is sick and wrong for eating horse. IMO it is the stress and horrible conditions during travel and slaughter at some places that is wrong.


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## Piedpiper (16 June 2010)

Don't really want to get into this debate... but just to clarify, not all slaughter animals get taken to market first. Most of the time they are picked up from the farm at a designated time and driven straight to the slaughter house. This cuts down on the travelling time, as well as the stress of being taken to the market and then taken to slaughter. A lot of the animals that go through markets (for sheep anyway), are not there to be sold as slaughter animals.
I also agree, that it's very much about the dignity that you give your animals, be they sheep, cattle or horses, that counts. A good stockman knows this and will always ensure that 'their' animals are looked after in the best possible manner.


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## YorksG (16 June 2010)

I have eaten horse meat in the past and would in the future, there was a horse abbatoir near us in the past, which I had no problem with at all. All our horses are shot at home when the time comes, but I have no problem with people who take them to slaughter, provided the animal is not stressed by travelling etc, I keep pet sheep, but still eat lamb and mutton, just not my own animals, feel much the same about horses. The issue with dog or cat is different to my mind as they are carniverous. I do eat pig meat and sometimes wonder about this as they are omniverous, it seems more intuatively right to eat only herbivors.


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## Natch (16 June 2010)

heather_bambi said:



			Also the UK is very good for its abattoirs. I read some research saying that in Brazil, about 80% is (cant quite remember the figures) did not die on the first attempt....and about 57% of the horses returned to some sort of sensibility (neighing) whilst hung on the hooks (supposedly dead).

and agree with above, horses were domesticated in the first place so humans could use them for meat. Who are we to say that the rest Europe is sick and wrong for eating horse. IMO it is the stress and horrible conditions during travel and slaughter at some places that is wrong.
		
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This one thing troubles me about eating any meat. When is an animal actually dead? I watched an episode of kill it cook it eat it where the lambs kicked out after they had had their throats bled - were they conscious then? Able to suffer pain? how long after an animal has been bled does it lose consciousness and ability to feel pain?

I do eat meat - I don't consciously eat horse - I just don't want to but don't have a problem with others doing so.

However - I do have a problem with horses raised as pets being taken to the slaughterhouse. It smells of death, I have witnessed for myself a horse's stark fear when they come off the box to the smells and sounds at a slaughterhouse. How any domesticated horse's owner can want this to be their horse's last experience is beyond me.


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## pastie2 (16 June 2010)

Kate Sturgess said:



			And, your point is? I take it you eat meat? You make it sound like your personal pet is being taken to put through the mincer! Horses make good meat. We domesticated them in the first place because of this, THEN we found we could train and ride them. They don't HAVE to be domesticated, trained and ridden any more than sheep, cattle or camels do. It's what we CHOOSE to do to them - to teach them that humans are okay and form a relationship with them. 

Pastie, the sheep on the farm where my horse is kept are born and raised here, but they do NOT go to market. The meat man comes to the farm, checks them over, offers a price and they go directly to slaughter.
		
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Yes and no doubt they are sold on dead weight on the computer, we sold lambs like that from Cumbria, they were picked up on sunday and transported to Wales and sold as welsh lamb. I have been involved in farming most of my life. Our sheep went to slaughter to,via Wales!


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## Umbongo (16 June 2010)

Naturally said:



			This one thing troubles me about eating any meat. When is an animal actually dead? I watched an episode of kill it cook it eat it where the lambs kicked out after they had had their throats bled - were they conscious then? Able to suffer pain? how long after an animal has been bled does it lose consciousness and ability to feel pain?
		
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Apparently a lot of animals will seem to twitch/kick during this...arghh I can't remember exactly but it is something to do with their muscles, supposedly though the animal is dead/unconscious. It is one of those questions though that no one can answer unless you can go through that experience but come back to tell everyone!


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## Umbongo (16 June 2010)

pastie2 said:



			we sold lambs like that from Cumbria, they were picked up on sunday and transported to Wales and sold as welsh lamb.
		
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Sadly this happens a lot, a lot of horses are transported from elsewhere, say from here to Italy. Held in Italy for a certain number of hours...and can then be slaughtered and sold as "Italian" horse meat!


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## Little_Miss_1 (16 June 2010)

heather_bambi said:



			Also the UK is very good for its abattoirs. I read some research saying that in Brazil, about 80% is (cant quite remember the figures) did not die on the first attempt....and about 57% of the horses returned to some sort of sensibility (neighing) whilst hung on the hooks (supposedly dead).

and agree with above, horses were domesticated in the first place so humans could use them for meat. Who are we to say that the rest Europe is sick and wrong for eating horse. IMO it is the stress and horrible conditions during travel and slaughter at some places that is wrong.
		
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Goodness - that is shocking. 

I have no problem with horses for meat - I think that there are far worse destinations for them! I have no real problems eating them either (never know they were in chorizo though... humm, I love chorizo! Still gonna eat it though!) as far as I am concerned, any animal - correctly slaughtered and prepared is food. Just because we have chosen to domesticate them doesn't change that. I don't know if I would eat one of my horses... you know what, I probably would. Once an animal is dead it is meat. Regardless of its living form. 

My view is that as long as the slaughtering process is correct and it has been as humane as possible then I have no problem. I do however have strong views that that process (and it's precursors - such as no long distance travelling) should be of the highest possible welfare standards.


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## Mrs B (16 June 2010)

Not sure why you're so cross with me here, Pastie (and I've been involved in farming all my life too) but the lambs here are graded and paid for by the owner of the meat factory and that is where the farmer takes them to slaughter. There IS only one journey!

I was watching a group of them today bouncing in and out of a tractor tyre that is used as a hay feeder in winter - they were having the most marvellous game and I like knowing that they will have a good life and a short, swift end to it. And then I like to eat them.


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## Donkeymad (16 June 2010)

Naturally said:



			However - I do have a problem with horses raised as pets being taken to the slaughterhouse. It smells of death, I have witnessed for myself a horse's stark fear when they come off the box to the smells and sounds at a slaughterhouse. How any domesticated horse's owner can want this to be their horse's last experience is beyond me.
		
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Whatever you saw is unusual though. Mainly they are completely oblivious and actually die as relaxed as being in a strange place allows.


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## Little_Miss_1 (16 June 2010)

heather_bambi said:



			Apparently a lot of animals will seem to twitch/kick during this...arghh I can't remember exactly but it is something to do with their muscles, supposedly though the animal is dead/unconscious. It is one of those questions though that no one can answer unless you can go through that experience but come back to tell everyone!
		
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Yes, muscles will still twitch when there is no conscious controll to them. I have been in GA surgery when a horse is completley anaesthnatised and a muscle twich has occoured and a hind leg kicked out and hit a vet and broke his arm. But the animal didnt feel anything - it is just the muscle working. 

I think the thing that needs to be looked at is the blood supply to the conscious cortex of the brain. This is the bit that will process pain in a conscious sense. i.e after the throat has been cut then there is probably not much function going on up there. But I suspect a bullet will probably disable this centre - I'm not certain though, not something I've ever researched...  

This is one of my problems with ritual slaughter - they dont necessarily cut the arteries to the brain so consciousness could occur for a period after...


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## Umbongo (16 June 2010)

Ahh here it is...woops got the first bit wrong...most horses fell at the first slaughter attempt..not the other way around. Research taken from an abattoir in Brazil.

"Werner & Gallo (2008) observed only 85.7% of horses falling at the first attempt and signs of return to sensibility on the hook in 57.2% of horses "

The abattoirs in the UK are much more up to scratch with welfare though!!


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## GinaB (16 June 2010)

I have absolutely no issue with horses being used as meat as long as they are reared, transported and killed humanely. I wouldn't have an issue with eating it either


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## pastie2 (16 June 2010)

So you are all happy about eating and breeding horses for meat. Please dont let me see a thread from any of you berating someone for putting the wrong ****ing rug on their horse, a saddle that doesnt fit, a back person that urgently needs to see their horse, a horse that in your opinion unfit to be ridden, unfit to be bred from. I could go on.  Lets have fields of meat horses, treated like cattle.Because thats fine.


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## perfect11s (16 June 2010)

Blacklist said:



			If we opened things up in the UK it might make things better for the horse and put a stop to LIVE EXPORT for slaughter.
		
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 i dont think you could do it because the frogs and the other continentals have to have it live so they can claim it's french lamb etc after its been in france  in their farm for a few weeks...  the best thing for horse welfare is to reduce indesciminate breeding of horses  both wild and domestic,  maybe it would help if there was better grading of stalions and more geldings produced as a result!!


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## Little_Miss_1 (16 June 2010)

pastie2 said:



			So you are all happy about eating and breeding horses for meat. Please dont let me see a thread from any of you berating someone for putting the wrong ****ing rug on their horse, a saddle that doesnt fit, a back person that urgently needs to see their horse, a horse that in your opinion unfit to be ridden, unfit to be bred from. I could go on.  Lets have fields of meat horses, treated like cattle.Because thats fine.
		
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I'm  sorry, but this is not my point at all. I'm not starting an issue (It's too late and I'm too nice!!!) but I was saying that I have no problems with horses going to an abboitior and being slaughtered for meat as long as their welfare is correctly considered (stress of travelling, handling, correct slaughter methods etc). I think that there are many fates worse than death. But the points that you raise ARE welfare concerns and I don't agree with these.


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## pastie2 (16 June 2010)

Kate Sturgess said:



			Not sure why you're so cross with me here, Pastie (and I've been involved in farming all my life too) but the lambs here are graded and paid for by the owner of the meat factory and that is where the farmer takes them to slaughter. There IS only one journey!

I was watching a group of them today bouncing in and out of a tractor tyre that is used as a hay feeder in winter - they were having the most marvellous game and I like knowing that they will have a good life and a short, swift end to it. And then I like to eat them.
		
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I am not cross Kate, it is just the naivity(sp) of people that think that they go straight to the slaughter house, you have been involved in farming so you must know when lambs are sold on the computer,the are sold as dead weight. They are transported all over thecountry to the best market place. If they are bred in Cumbria and slaughtered in Wales they are Welsh lamb. If you are know about farmng you wll know what I am talking about!


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## YorksG (16 June 2010)

pastie2 said:



			So you are all happy about eating and breeding horses for meat. Please dont let me see a thread from any of you berating someone for putting the wrong ****ing rug on their horse, a saddle that doesnt fit, a back person that urgently needs to see their horse, a horse that in your opinion unfit to be ridden, unfit to be bred from. I could go on.  Lets have fields of meat horses, treated like cattle.Because thats fine.
		
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Surely breeding/keeping horses for meat is somewhat different from using ill fitting tack? Or using correct treatment for a RIDING horse that is unfit to be ridden. If the horse is bred for meat, then its conformation will be designed for that purpose, somewhat different from the conformation of a riding horse. Presumably also the meat horse will be bred to cope with the weather conditions it would be subjected to, while maintaining maximum weight of meat, not much use if it is shivering weight off. Your view of farmers and farming is obviously poor (as you say it is from first hand experience, I wonder about the farming practices in Cumbria) as the majority of farmers wish to maximise their income through good husbandry


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## perfect11s (16 June 2010)

GinaB said:



			I have absolutely no issue with horses being used as meat as long as they are reared, transported and killed humanely. I wouldn't have an issue with eating it either 

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 what about cats dogs or even human ??? would that be an issue perhaps, afterall they are all just meat too!!


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## Honey08 (16 June 2010)

Pastie just because we would eat horsemeat, you can't say that we can't complain about a horse that is suffering!  Its not a logical thing to say!!  Student vet is right - I'm concerned about their welfare while theyre alive.. A dead horse is a dead horse.

I've never taken a horse to the slaughter house.  I've had the knacker man put one down at home and take them away.  When I was deciding what to do, my instructor told me that when she has taken horses for slaughter, they are killed in a loosebox, which has a folding wall - so the horse dies in a stable calmly, then falls through the wall to whatever comes next..  Does anyone else know about this?


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## Little_Miss_1 (16 June 2010)

Honey08 said:



			Pastie just because we would eat horsemeat, you can't say that we can't complain about a horse that is suffering!  Its not a logical thing to say!!  Student vet is right - I'm concerned about their welfare while theyre alive.. A dead horse is a dead horse.

I've never taken a horse to the slaughter house.  I've had the knacker man put one down at home and take them away.  When I was deciding what to do, my instructor told me that when she has taken horses for slaughter, they are killed in a loosebox, which has a folding wall - so the horse dies in a stable calmly, then falls through the wall to whatever comes next..  Does anyone else know about this?
		
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Yes, it is something allong those lines. I have worked in slaughterhouses but never an equine slaughterhouse. That said, a few years ago there was a campaign from one group of people (I cant even remember who they were...) but they were campaigning against the equine slaughterhouses in the UK - saying that they are barbaric and that horses are our 'friends' and it was brutal etc. Well, they implanted a secret video into the corner of one of the loose box type things of one of the equine slaughterhouses and videoed it. I have seen the footage and TBH it did more harm for their campaign than good - the horses were slaughtered one by one, calmly brought through to a loose boxey-foldey thing, bang, then taken to a seperate room for butchery . Room was then cleaned down and the next brought it. Very quick and calm. The horses outside (they also got footage of them) were in a pen grazing calmly... unaware of what was about to happen.


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## pastie2 (16 June 2010)

yorksG said:



			Surely breeding/keeping horses for meat is somewhat different from using ill fitting tack? Or using correct treatment for a RIDING horse that is unfit to be ridden. If the horse is bred for meat, then its conformation will be designed for that purpose, somewhat different from the conformation of a riding horse. Presumably also the meat horse will be bred to cope with the weather conditions it would be subjected to, while maintaining maximum weight of meat, not much use if it is shivering weight off. Your view of farmers and farming is obviously poor (as you say it is from first hand experience, I wonder about the farming practices in Cumbria) as the majority of farmers wish to maximise their income through good husbandry
		
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O you agree with the breeding of meat horses that have not the conformation to be ridden. purely for their meat, is acceptable, how many of these meat horses with poor conformation will appear on the open market as rideing horses, also what will happen to the bad breeding that is already established in this country, they will have no market at all. Mind you having said that it might not be a bad thing.


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## Little_Miss_1 (16 June 2010)

perfect11s said:



			what about cats dogs or even human ??? would that be an issue perhaps, afterall they are all just meat too!!
		
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And sorry... meat is meat to me. I care about the living animal and carcass quality. The species is irrelevant. Maybe human is too far purely for the TSE infection risk of eating ones own species. But TBH, when I'm dead... if anyone / anyhting wants to eat me.. at least I am being usefull!


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## GinaB (16 June 2010)

perfect11s said:



			what about cats dogs or even human ??? would that be an issue perhaps, afterall they are all just meat too!!
		
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Not a cat person so that wouldn't bother me  Again, if reared, killed etc humanely no issue. I am not squeamish when it comes to meat. We are evolved to eat meat! Although I would much rather some tasty phesant or venison than dog


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## pastie2 (16 June 2010)

studentvet said:



			And sorry... meat is meat to me. I care about the living animal and carcass quality. The species is irrelevant. Maybe human is too far purely for the TSE infection risk of eating ones own species. But TBH, when I'm dead... if anyone / anyhting wants to eat me.. at least I am being usefull!
		
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Heee Hee!!!!Good reply!


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## YorksG (16 June 2010)

pastie2 said:



			O you agree with the breeding of meat horses that have not the conformation to be ridden. purely for their meat, is acceptable, how many of these meat horses with poor conformation will appear on the open market as rideing horses, also what will happen to the bad breeding that is already established in this country, they will have no market at all. Mind you having said that it might not be a bad thing.
		
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How interesting that you choose to answer only one point of my post, I agree with animals having the conformation for the job they are being bred to do, and that the indiscriminate breeding of horses with poor conformation should be ended. I doubt that many meat breeds would appear on the ridden market, as their worth would be in meat, just like very few beef cows are used for milk herds.


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## Little_Miss_1 (16 June 2010)

GinaB said:



			Not a cat person so that wouldn't bother me 

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LOL - come and join me for a BBQ cat kebab! 

Sorry, before anyone say it - I'm not 'sick' just a human dustbin. I have ethics about the way animals are reared and killed, but once they are dead they are food. And I get hungry.


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## Honey08 (16 June 2010)

I went to my first equine auction recently.  It was full of badly bred, pitiful "riding horse" with poor conformation.  Not all horses have the lovely life that is different to the life of a farm animal.  

Student vet - thanks for coming back re the slaughter house methods for horses.  Personally I wish all animals could be killed so calmly!  I wouldn't have different rules for different species if it were up to me.  See - I do have a soft side!


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## Tormenta (17 June 2010)

Blacklist said:



			I am probably opening a LARGE CAN OF WORMS, here goes:

What does the forum think on the subject of eating horses. If a horse has had a good life and is humanely slaughtered here in UK then exported for meat to the Continent - why is the right/wrong? and why don't we eat horseflesh here in the UK. Is is not really any different to an agricultural meat animal - except we ride them.
		
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My answer to OP. I don't have a problem with the humane slaughter of any animal. There are too many issues regarding horses that I feel would make a situation worse if we did not have reputable abattoirs in the UK. Until those issues are managed (Quite a problem) then I am firmly on the bandwagon for the need for humane slaughter.

To answer your second point, If someone chooses to eat horsemeat that is their choice, personally no I could and would not. It is my personal choice just as those who can and do fulfill their right to.

Thirdly, my personal opinion only, I do see horses differently to cows, sheep and pigs. Not that I dont think that they don't deserve the same respect in treatment and death because I do but I view horses as a part of History, as part of our heritage and being unreplaceable servants to man.


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## pastie2 (17 June 2010)

yorksG said:



			How interesting that you choose to answer only one point of my post, I agree with animals having the conformation for the job they are being bred to do, and that the indiscriminate breeding of horses with poor conformation should be ended. I doubt that many meat breeds would appear on the ridden market, as their worth would be in meat, just like very few beef cows are used for milk herds.
		
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YorksG, I think that they could slip into the ridden market. So that will be another welfare factor to contend with. In Canada they have the Premaren mare(sp) that has a catheter to her to produce urine for HRT. The foals are slaughtered as they are useless for anything else, there is a welfare site for Premaren mares foals. Not many fnd homes. Do we really want to go down that route.


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## BSJAlove (17 June 2010)

after watchig some pictures of horse slaughter, i found it harder to watch the uk sloughter as the horses looked healthy were as in america, they look skinny and lifeless and having them killed would put them out of their misery. 

tbh i would try horse meat, out of curiosity. i just dont think about the slaughter, as i do with a cow or a sheep. meat is meat at the end of the day. and there is no difference between a cow and a horse. other then the fact man has been brought to love the horse on a personal matter.


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## YorksG (17 June 2010)

It is my understanding that most bull calves from milk herds are salughtered, tbh provided the mares and foals are treated humanely, I see little difference, however this is NOT meat production, so somewhat off the point. I would have thought that few people would find meat bred horses sufficiently aesthetically pleasing for many to cross into the ridden market. There are of course horses which have been bred as dual purpose animals, but that is usually meat and draught, rather than meat and riding.


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## pastie2 (17 June 2010)

yorksG said:



			It is my understanding that most bull calves from milk herds are salughtered, tbh provided the mares and foals are treated humanely, I see little difference, however this is NOT meat production, so somewhat off the point. I would have thought that few people would find meat bred horses sufficiently aesthetically pleasing for many to cross into the ridden market. There are of course horses which have been bred as dual purpose animals, but that is usually meat and draught, rather than meat and riding.
		
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YorksG I am well aware of the slaughtering of bull calves, having farmed a sheep flock anda dairy herd for a number of years.  You say that meat horses might not appeal to the general public, I think that they will evolve into some sort of riding horse in the end. Lets cross this with that or this.


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## DanielleAngel (17 June 2010)

How odd, I was just thinking about this today.
I'm not sure there's a whole lot of money in it really, £1 = 1kg I think the meat prices are now.

I agree, if they're transported right and slaughtered humanley I don't see a problem.
I've eaten horse meat in france, bad idea, red meat makes me ill (for some reason) but it was kinda worth it. Not much different too beef I suppose.

Meh, my opinion is that it might clear out the **** running through the breeding system...just a maybe though


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## perfect11s (17 June 2010)

Tormenta said:



			My answer to OP. I don't have a problem with the humane slaughter of any animal. There are too many issues regarding horses that I feel would make a situation worse if we did not have reputable abattoirs in the UK. Until those issues are managed (Quite a problem) then I am firmly on the bandwagon for the need for humane slaughter.

To answer your second point, If someone chooses to eat horsemeat that is their choice, personally no I could and would not. It is my personal choice just as those who can and do fulfill their right to.

Thirdly, my personal opinion only, I do see horses differently to cows, sheep and pigs. Not that I dont think that they don't deserve the same respect in treatment and death because I do but I view horses as a part of History, as part of our heritage and being unreplaceable servants to man.
		
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 Yes totaly agree very well put ..


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## Amymay (17 June 2010)

Whilst not to my particular palet, as long as humanely slaughtered, and transported on the hook, not the hoof - I don't have a problem with it.

They are currently selling all sorts of 'exotic' meets in my local market - may be interesting to try some.


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## sywell (17 June 2010)

Is it better for the horse to be humanely put down or to be badly treated because it has no value for riding. The Gray affair answeres that question. There is plenty of legislation to cover transport of horses as long as it is properly enforced. So there is a motto ride the good ones and eat the bad ones.


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## rosie fronfelen (17 June 2010)

KitKat_89 said:



			LOL 

I just want to clarify (not that it makes much differance) but i feel there is a differance between eating your lifelong pet and companion, and eating horsemeat, from an animal that was bred and raised for that purpose, and has not know the kind of relationship with people that a pet or competition horse would.

And pastie - Thanks for replying to my post, unwarranted as it was 

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out of curiosity, are you a 21 year old student at Aber?


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## Blacklist (17 June 2010)

pastie2 said:



			Cattle are taken to market, sheep are taken to market, what makes you think that horses would go directly to the slaughter house. There has to be a market or else how would the meat man know what he was buying. That is if we are treating horses as a food product. They will be produced the same as sheep or cattle. Anyway why are you taking all your horses to slaughter, you sound like a meat dealer already. Are these your horses?
		
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Please be careful with your accusations - I AM NOT A MEAT dealer. When our horses come to the end of their useful lives then on the whole they go for meat - that is maybe one a year.

Regarding your comment on markets there are already many horse markets/sales here in the UK - and probably the majority of animals sold go for meat. However their should be better regulation and if 'Live' export for meat were banned in the UK this would improve things a lot. 

Incidentally horses are already treated as a 'food' product at the sales.


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## Blacklist (17 June 2010)

Blacklist said:



			Fistly my post was on the subject of horse slaughter in the UK - please don't misunderstand me I AM NOT in favour of travelling any 'meat' animal abroad for slaughter

In some cases the conditions are comparable (and not all competition horses are treated well when travelling especially if they are lorry or class fillers).  In the UK there are maybe 6 horse slaughter houses so in some cases a horse may have to travel 200 miles plus for slaughter - UK rules state that all animals transported for long distances especially equines have to be properly rested etc whether travelling for competition or otherwise. 

All our horses when the time comes travel to Derbyshire 70 miles away for humane slaughter - they live a good life. I would much rather they have one bad day in their lives (if they have to) after a good life than be passed around the auctions and ill-treated.
		
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I maybe haven't made myself clear what I meant by 'when the time comes' is when the animal comes to the emd of its useful life as a breeding animal or sports horse.


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## Blacklist (17 June 2010)

perfect11s said:



			i dont think you could do it because the frogs and the other continentals have to have it live so they can claim it's french lamb etc after its been in france  in their farm for a few weeks...  the best thing for horse welfare is to reduce indesciminate breeding of horses  both wild and domestic,  maybe it would help if there was better grading of stalions and more geldings produced as a result!!
		
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A valid point but horses are transported dead already after being slaughtered here in the UK and that doesn't seem to bother the French etc


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## ilovecobs (17 June 2010)

Blacklist said:



			I am probably opening a LARGE CAN OF WORMS, here goes:

What does the forum think on the subject of eating horses. If a horse has had a good life and is humanely slaughtered here in UK then exported for meat to the Continent - why is the right/wrong? and why don't we eat horseflesh here in the UK. Is is not really any different to an agricultural meat animal - except we ride them.
		
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I think a big problem is they aren't always slaughtered here and sometimes they are transported in cruel condition etc, not enough water and so on. I dont agree with it tbh. But having said that i dont eat any meat, im a picky eater and just dont like the general idea of eating animals. If you say that its right about horses then you may as well say it about a dog, cat, hamster and so on and so on. I think we dont eat it here as we see it as similar to eating your house pets. I may be wrong but iv had this conversation with people before and most people cant put their finger on the reason but they just think its not quite right.


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## KitKat_89 (17 June 2010)

rosiefronfelen said:



			out of curiosity, are you a 21 year old student at Aber?
		
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Not 21 yet  please dont age me prematurely. Why?


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## martlin (17 June 2010)

KitKat_89 said:



			Not 21 yet  please dont age me prematurely. Why?
		
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Because you can't possibly be old enough to know if eating horses is wrong or not


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## KitKat_89 (17 June 2010)

martlin said:



			Because you can't possibly be old enough to know if eating horses is wrong or not

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 Dont spoil the fun martlin 

Dont worry, as of next week I'm sure I will be far to busy to offer immature opinions on this lovely forum


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## martlin (17 June 2010)

You'll be fine, as many opinions as you want... horses live out, lambing long over, same with calving and the hay is being cut as we speak
So, just feeding pigs, walking dogs and seeing as the ****ing arena is still not finished - lazy hacks in the evenings


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## Sarah Sum1 (17 June 2010)

I'm vegetarian so do not eat meat. But for those that do, why is there any difference in eating a horse to say a cow or pig? They are all animals, just because one is prettier than the other or some are seen as pets. If you eat a cow then IMO eating a horse/cat/dog or squirrel  should be no different. I do object to some of the conditions before slaughter, especially where the cats/dogs are concerend, due to the stupid belief that pain (adrenilin) will make the cat/dogs meat taste better so they are (some) tortured. That to me is unnaceptable in this day and age. But i have no issue with meat eaters eating horse. However i do not approve of the distances in which some equines have to travel before slaughter either.


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## KitKat_89 (17 June 2010)

Pigs? PIGS? Since when were there any pigs? 

Lazy hacks in my flozzy fetching-wotsit of course!  Sounds delightful!


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## Tiggy1 (17 June 2010)

Horses - I would not conciously eat horse meat - personal choice don't shoot me down.
Lambs - ours are bought by abbattoir and transported direct.
Cattle - same.
Bull calves are being used a lot for meat now as the price of cattle is so high at the moment so there is a market for them and they mainly end up as burgers and mince.


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## martlin (17 June 2010)

KitKat_89 said:



			Pigs? PIGS? Since when were there any pigs? 

Lazy hacks in my flozzy fetching-wotsit of course!  Sounds delightful!
		
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LOL! Since Sunday 5 lovely Berkshires and 1 saddleback, they're ever so friendly!
As to horsemeat - it's quite nice actually, somewhere between beef and venison IMO...
I dislike lamb though, quite fond of beef if somebody else cooks it.


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## juventino (17 June 2010)

I mistakenly ate horse meat and felt bad afterwards - it was in Italy and it was pork salami. Only after eating it did I see there was also horse meat in there too. Of course, Italy is the worst for this because they get an awful lot from Romania and Poland so there are long and bad travelling conditions.


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## NeedNewHorse (17 June 2010)

I would never eat horse meat. Having said that i wouldn't eat any meat as i am a vegetarian.. lol

BUT.. God, i really cannot believe some people. What is it with everyone? Is everyones imaginations so dense they cannot imagine a meal without some poor bloody (no pun intended) animal strung up on it?

We don't have to eat meat... So if your hungry eat something else that didn't have to die.. Yet the public wants meat, so meat they get. Who cares what happens to the animal... We all know the animals are treated horrendously yet when out for dinner meat is on the menu, on every dish at every venue.

Horses are amazing, athletic, stunning animals and as far as I am concerned far too precious to be stuffed in someones mouth!


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## Doncella (17 June 2010)

fumanchu said:





Doncella said:



			Historically we have never eaten horsemeat in the UK because as an island race we have never been held to siege except for during the Second World War and into the 1950's when horsemeat was off the ration.
QUOTE]


Horse and donkeys were eaten in WW2...
		
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Yes and whales, this meat was off the ration and did not take up valuable coupons which is why we almost lost all of our heavy horses and native ponies.
		
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## juventino (17 June 2010)

I actually agree with you, Heidirusso. I think the major problem is with the cheap mass produced/factory farmed food that feeds the appalling conditions in many farms in the UK. I'm specifically thinking of junk food and practically everything in Iceland store - also, it's not a right for people to be able to afford to eat meat everyday. You can be perfectly healthy as a veggie or eating less (good quality) meat. The diet during WW2 was the most healthy this country has seen - and that was rationed.


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## rosie fronfelen (17 June 2010)

KitKat_89 said:



			Not 21 yet  please dont age me prematurely. Why?
		
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sorry for that- i only asked as young students usually have plenty to say,going rather against older folks experience but preferring to go by scientific and endless studies and book reading!! ( i rather thought your question about why are horses special to another poster immature and not the best to ask.)


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## KitKat_89 (17 June 2010)

rosiefronfelen said:



			sorry for that- i only asked as young students usually have plenty to say,going rather against older folks experience but preferring to go by scientific and endless studies and book reading!! ( i rather thought your question about why are horses special to another poster immature and not the best to ask.)
		
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Well you make a fair point - I do have plenty to say! I refrained from writing you all an essay on the finer points of my views and opinions though 

I dont see how my age makes my opinion on this any less valid than yours on this topic  though? You know little of what experiance I may or may not have, and I know many 'older folks' who could not care less where thier food came from of how it was produced! I have taken the time to think about my values and have discussed this topic on a few occasions - with people older and far more educated than myself, at least I have views to back up my opinions :/  (and no, on this topic I have not read much about it in books ect - I save that for essays writing. I formed my own opinions.)

Each to thier own, but I stand by my point - and the question was aimed at no particular poster. 

(Forgive me if that is not very coherant - I am not feeling my best right now and struggling to string a sentance together but you get my point I think   )


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## applecart14 (17 June 2010)

I have not got a problem with eating horsemeat providing the animal has led a humane and good life and is humanely slaughtered.  I would happily eat it under these circumstances.  I wouldn't be happy with sending carcasses abroad though as I think this would encourage a huge and not necessarily happy industry to be created due to this in the UK.


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## LittleSoph (17 June 2010)

I wasn't going to reply to this, as I wasn't sure how I felt...
Having read most of the replies, I understood what people were saying about the practicalities... I understand that there is no real reason that horses should be treated unlike any other animal, and I understood why people feel that so long as everything is done humanely, there should be no reason not to slaughter a horse for human consumption... I was swaying towards agreeing with these sentiments...
And then I watched this video...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=435JtOKH2Qo

The above video just changed my thoughts completely! Watching each of those horses walking into that room just made me realise the respect and adoration that those animals deserve, and that I feel for them... not just my own horse, in his field, who I visit every day, but all of them.
I found it painful to watch those animals, trusting and respecting those men, follow them into a room, where, unbeknown to them, they would face an undignified, heartless death.

Horses owe us nothing, we owe them an awful lot. They have fought with us in war, carried our kings and queens, provided us with entertainment and sport, representing our country in doing so, provided transport for ourselves and our goods, provided therapy for the less fortunate or diasabled, provided sanction and enjoyment for many of us on a daily basis, been a part of so many families and children's upbringings, taught so many to ride, taught so many people so much about themselves, they've been a huge part of our history in every way, provided a huge money making industry for the UK, been a loyal companion, a slave and a  not to mention a best friend....
Everything I have learnt about them and experienced with them screams at me that they are so much more any other animal... rightly or wrongly. And that, for me, makes all practical argument for horse slaughter go out the window... I just can't make myself feel it is Ok. That is not the respect that these amazing animals deserve after thousands of years of service and companionship they have provided us with! They don't demand our respect, they've earned it, a million times over.

Also, some of you have said things along the lines of 'I agree with it/I'd eat horse meat, but not my horse...' 
But what if you were watching that video, and suddenly, for reasons beyond you control (you sold your horse) your horse appeared through that door and the gun was raised to their head.... would that be Ok?! Each of those horses were probably once adored by somebody and had a purpose in life... you have no control over where the horses you sell end up, it's a risk we all take when selling a horse, but I'd like to think that non of the horses I've ever sold would meet such an undignified, heartless end.


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## LittleSoph (17 June 2010)

But that's kind of the point fumanchu... that's a humane, correct way of doing things, but it still just feels so wrong.
I don't think they're being cruel, or underhanded. I just can't justify it in my head... like I said, all practical argument aside.


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## Crackajack (17 June 2010)

mtj said:



			If you eaten Chorizo or  Italian sausage you've probably already munched an  equine!
		
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YUK!!!
yeh i have! lol Tasted good tho!


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## Crackajack (17 June 2010)

OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I have been with a horse when it has been put down by injection which was bad enough.....but to watch that was brutal!
I as many of us know this is going on but choose to ignore it and focus on the horse/s we have at home with us that we love and cherish!
If you watch the videos on youtube of american horse slaughter you may feel slightly comforted as ours are clean, quick and precise in comparison.

I think every animal is special - but we choose them to be special in different ways....not everybody likes horses and may view them as some of us "horsey" people would view cows/sheep/pigs etc
I could randomly rant for ages arguing with myself how it is rational and how it isn't but at the end of the day it happens - it just makes me respect, love, honour and enjoy CJ and any other beasties that join my family even more!!


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## *hic* (17 June 2010)

heidirusso said:



			I would never eat horse meat. Having said that i wouldn't eat any meat as i am a vegetarian.. lol

BUT.. God, i really cannot believe some people. What is it with everyone? Is everyones imaginations so dense they cannot imagine a meal without some poor bloody (no pun intended) animal strung up on it?

We don't have to eat meat... So if your hungry eat something else that didn't have to die.. Yet the public wants meat, so meat they get. Who cares what happens to the animal... We all know the animals are treated horrendously yet when out for dinner meat is on the menu, on every dish at every venue.

Horses are amazing, athletic, stunning animals and as far as I am concerned far too precious to be stuffed in someones mouth!
		
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I make sure the animals I eat are vegetarian - even the naturally omnivorous pigs.

I don't eat meat at every meal or even every day. I value where my meat has come from because I quite possibly helped it be born, I have ensured it's living conditions are the best I can provide throughout it's life, I have assisted in it's quiet, calm respected death, I make sure it is treated with respect after that death and then finally I cook it and serve it to others of my family who appreciate where it has come from and what it has been through.

My body doesn't suit a vegetarian diet, I've tried it through lack of funds in the past for a year and believe me it really doesn't suit me at all. 

I actually have a problem with killing plants for no good reason. I've been causing some amusement to my friends and family because I foolishly planted all the tomato seeds in all the packets I had bought. I have some 200 tomato plants, I have given some away but I'm left with well over 100 and I can't just chuck them in the bin, I've grown them, they need to finish their useful life. Many of them will end up in the pigs but they have had their chance to flower.

It's not just horses that have helped man become what he is today. Ever since man first became a hunter he has prospered and gained use from most parts of all the animals he has eaten. Where would man have been had there been no leather? In fact where would man have been in his travels to colder climes without animal skins for clothing? 

Aspire to vegetarianism if you will but it is not how we have evolved to live, we would not have evolved without meat - cancel that, we would not have survived without meat! Horses are more athletic naturally than cows - and I'm talking hundreds of thousands of years ago. They have developed further to be more athletic and useful to man through selective breeding. Cows were, and are still in places, used as multipurpose pack, meat and breeding animals because they were less athletic. Would you say that as dogs are less athletic than cats they should be less deserving of a place in our esteem - be more likely to be eaten?


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## Chico Mio (17 June 2010)

Horses are considered to be meat or lawn mowers where I live - unless their owners are 'into' horses. 

I don't eat meat, because I don't like it, not for any ethical reasons.  In my opinion, any animal is edible - dogs, horses and cats included, just because they are considered pets or non meat animals by one part of the globe, doesn't mean they are in another.  IMO it is a cultural thing, as are many things that we may not agree with.


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## hannabanana (17 June 2010)

Malibu_Stacy said:



			I don't agree with it at all (in fact just thinking about it makes me feel slightly queasy, like thinking about someone eating a family member) BUT I feel pretty much the same about eating any meat (I'm a vegan), so at least I'm consistent!

Ironically the thinking that many of the posters are giving here as to why eating horse-meat is acceptable is part of the reason I became veggie in the first place.  I knew I could never eat horse as interacted, become attached, and knew that they were individuals, but then thought I'd probably feel the same about a pet cow or sheep if I had one!
		
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I totally agree, im a veggie so the thought of meat makes me queezy, i can understand where everyone is coming from but i just couldnt bring myself to eat any horse, i love animals and see them as friends so i just wouldnt feel right XD


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## Happy Horse (17 June 2010)

I have no problem at all with people eating horse meat, I eat beef and lamb so it would be hypocritical of me to think differently.  

I wouldn't want there to be a horse meat industry in the UK though.  If I understand it right a cow or sheep is killed at around 6 months to a year but a horse is best at around 7 years. I can't understand how a farmer could rear a horse and provide it the standard of care it would need for seven years when the price of meat is so low.  Presumably in that seven years they will need feet trimming, vet visits etc and at £1 per kilo which has been suggested even the heaviest horses meat value is going to be only around £750 liveweight or less for deadweight.   In the UK where land is so expensive it couldn't be a very good investment in the best case scenario.

If pet horses were to be allowed to enter the food chain then during their lives they would be very restricted as to what drugs they could have.  It would be a pretty heartless owner who denied them painkillers so they could be sold for human consumption once their useful life was over.

The video that has been linked to I have seen before and I have no problem at all with the method of humane slaughter that it shows.  A far better end than beeing passed through the sales or carted round numerous unsuitable homes.


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## reindeerlover (17 June 2010)

I don't see a problem with raising horses for slaughter. I would not do it myself because I'm pretty sure I would get attached to them and not want them to go then end up howling like a baby. I would also not be able to raise other animals for this reason. I don't see a problem with herds of horses instead of cattle in the fields, I don't understand why anyone would. If the animals were bred specifically for meat and needed to survive and be healthy for maybe 4 years until slaughter I'm pretty sure that the ones with poor conformation would be culled earlier as they would be less likely to survive the 4 years (I'm talking about poor leg conformation etc which would cause unnatural strains/lameness/bad feet) and so perhaps the horses wouldn't be that bad to cause problems if they drifted into the ridden market?

I do think it's unlikely that dogs and cats could possibly be humanely reared for meat as their social structure doesn't really lend itself to this (in my opinion) they will fight for food and dominance, cannot wander peacefully as a non-family herd and frankly, could be very dangerous as a pack (I'm talking dogs here)! Although I may be wrong and again, it's not the humane slaughter I'm questioning, it's the rearing.


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## TheMule (17 June 2010)

LittleSoph said:



			I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=435JtOKH2Qo

The above video just changed my thoughts completely! Watching each of those horses walking into that room just made me realise the respect and adoration that those animals deserve, and that I feel for them... not just my own horse, in his field, who I visit every day, but all of them.
I found it painful to watch those animals, trusting and respecting those men, follow them into a room, where, unbeknown to them, they would face an undignified, heartless death.
		
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Remember that many of the horses here have had a wonderful life where they've been adored and theyre due to be PTS for a reason. Potters is very dignified and quiet place- most privately owned horses walk straight off the lorry into that building, they have no idea whats going on and it's all over very quickly. Many ex competition horses go through there and they get excited as they think theyre going to a party, it really is no different to having it done anywhere else and at least you know that the guys at Potters are exceptionally good at what they do.
I have heard so many horror stories about horses being shot by the hunt/ local slaughtermen and not dieing straight away.
I've watched many horses being killed at Potters and have not seen a single thing go wrong.


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## Saucisson (17 June 2010)

Hmmmmmm, I always argue with OH that I don't eat horsemeat because I'm English and therefore civilised  (I am quite partial to snails though......)

I really couldn't bring myself to do it, I just like them too much.  I have never had a close relation with a cow or a sheep though I have to admit.  I see it in the supermarket and just feel a bit sad, you can never see where it's come from either 

I have worked on pig farm and have always thought that pigs are to good to be eaten but unfortunately for them, so tasty.

I can't imagine my cat would taste nice - she's too angry and bitter


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## LittleSoph (17 June 2010)

TheMule said:



			Remember that many of the horses here have had a wonderful life where they've been adored and theyre due to be PTS for a reason. Potters is very dignified and quiet place- most privately owned horses walk straight off the lorry into that building, they have no idea whats going on and it's all over very quickly. Many ex competition horses go through there and they get excited as they think theyre going to a party, it really is no different to having it done anywhere else and at least you know that the guys at Potters are exceptionally good at what they do.
I have heard so many horror stories about horses being shot by the hunt/ local slaughtermen and not dieing straight away.
I've watched many horses being killed at Potters and have not seen a single thing go wrong.
		
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That's really interesting, and at least does ease the discomfort of knowing that it goes on regardless of how we feel... but somehow, knowing that these horses are often privately owned and have lived a life just like my own horse, doesn't make it any easier to watch. 
I don't doubt that this place is a very professional, efficient set up... it certainly looks as thought it is, and if it is going to be done at all, it's a pity it can't always be done like this, however, it just tugs at my heart strings so much to know that there is nothing wrong with a lot of these horses, and they are going to end up on somebodies dinner plate... it seems so much less than they deserve for the years of happiness they have probably given someone.


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## macnachtan (17 June 2010)

pastie2 said:



			Just to add, commercial animals such as beef, lambs etc, are slaughtered at a very young age. To slaughter a horse of say 19 yrs old after it has had a useful life on this earth it would be as tough as old boots. So that brings it round to breeding them for meat inthe first place and slautering them at a young age.
		
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If you please, I wish to correct you. A man that used to live down the lane from us would have his horses slaughtered when it was time for them to leave this earth. He was a Native America and his people did not let anything go to waste. He gave me some meat from a 26 year old mare and a 29 year old mare. It was very tender and sweet. Like grain fed beef. I am embarrassed to admit that I prefer horse over beef now, but we have not been able to buy horse meat for years and years since the laws were passed against it.


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## Blacklist (17 June 2010)

I think I have lit the blue touch paper with this post - but i'm not running!


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## martlin (17 June 2010)

Happy Horse said:



			If I understand it right a cow or sheep is killed at around 6 months to a year but a horse is best at around 7 years.
		
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Lambs depending on breed are ready for slaughter from about 4-5 months onwards, however 6 months old cattle would be veal - as much as pink or red veal is fine with me, most of beef animals are slaughtered at around 28-30 months, some between 30 and 48 months and anything over 48 months becomes tricky, but still goes to slaughter and enters food chain.


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## Elliep25 (17 June 2010)

La la laaaaaaaaaa not listening!! Horses are not a form of meat, and death doesn't exist, ie we and our beloved horses live forever-ok!? If I keep rocking and sucking my thumb all these bad thoughts will go away!!!!!


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## Spudlet (17 June 2010)

Littlesoph, I can see what you mean but it makes no odds to the horse when it's dead what happens to it.

If slaughter was banned, there would be terrible problems. The cost of carcase disposal is high and there are those who won't or can't pay. Those horses risk being neglected or abandoned - much better for them to have a quick and humane exit.

The USA banned slaughter - so now horses often go to Mexico where humane slaughter is really pretty much non-existent. Or you get abandoned horses, or people doing DIY pts, as we see reported here sometimes.

Humane slaughter is absolutely not the worst thing that can happen to a horse, and while I hope I'll never be in the position of having to take a horse to a slaughterhouse if I had to, I wouldn't hesitate.


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## Blacklist (17 June 2010)

Spudlet said:



			Littlesoph, I can see what you mean but it makes no odds to the horse when it's dead what happens to it.

If slaughter was banned, there would be terrible problems. The cost of carcase disposal is high and there are those who won't or can't pay. Those horses risk being neglected or abandoned - much better for them to have a quick and humane exit.

The USA banned slaughter - so now horses often go to Mexico where humane slaughter is really pretty much non-existent. Or you get abandoned horses, or people doing DIY pts, as we see reported here sometimes.

Humane slaughter is absolutely not the worst thing that can happen to a horse, and while I hope I'll never be in the position of having to take a horse to a slaughterhouse if I had to, I wouldn't hesitate.
		
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Well said - it is a dificult thing to do


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## Blacklist (18 June 2010)

Once again many thanks to the forum for their comments on this emotive subject


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## Brandy (18 June 2010)

I don't disagree with the eating, its the live transport that bothers me and the inhumane methods of despatch. I wouldn't eat horse myself. But then I don;t eat lamb either havng had two pets lams in the past.


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## rosie fronfelen (18 June 2010)

martlin said:



			Lambs depending on breed are ready for slaughter from about 4-5 months onwards, however 6 months old cattle would be veal - as much as pink or red veal is fine with me, most of beef animals are slaughtered at around 28-30 months, some between 30 and 48 months and anything over 48 months becomes tricky, but still goes to slaughter and enters food chain.
		
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cattle over 30 months do not enter the food chain, they can breed for however long but anything over 30 months goes to the incinerator.


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## martlin (18 June 2010)

rosiefronfelen said:



			cattle over 30 months do not enter the food chain, they can breed for however long but anything over 30 months goes to the incinerator.
		
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No it doesn't, but never mind.


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## Amymay (18 June 2010)

Direct from the Government:

_ Advice from the Food Standards Agency (FSA) that Defra's proposed robust BSE testing system for older cattle should replace the Over Thirty Months (OTM) rule was accepted today by the Government.

New legislation to replace the OTM rule by BSE testing can now be introduced. However, not all restrictions on the slaughter of British cattle will be lifted.

The OTM rule currently imposes an automatic ban on all older cattle from entering the human food chain. The new system will allow UK cattle born after 31 July 1996 to be slaughtered and sold for human consumption.

However, older UK cattle born before 1 August 1996 will continue to be excluded from the food chain and there will be a new legal offence of sending cattle born before August 1996 to abattoirs producing meat for human consumption.

Abattoirs wanting to slaughter OTM cattle must meet strict standards endorsed by the Food Standards Agency (FSA) and the Independent Group set up to advise the Agency. These include a two day trial and entering into a legally binding agreement with the Meat Hygiene Service on operational procedures. _


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## martlin (18 June 2010)

amymay said:



			Direct from the Government:

_ Advice from the Food Standards Agency (FSA) that Defra's proposed robust BSE testing system for older cattle should replace the Over Thirty Months (OTM) rule was accepted today by the Government.

New legislation to replace the OTM rule by BSE testing can now be introduced. However, not all restrictions on the slaughter of British cattle will be lifted.

The OTM rule currently imposes an automatic ban on all older cattle from entering the human food chain. The new system will allow UK cattle born after 31 July 1996 to be slaughtered and sold for human consumption.

However, older UK cattle born before 1 August 1996 will continue to be excluded from the food chain and there will be a new legal offence of sending cattle born before August 1996 to abattoirs producing meat for human consumption.

Abattoirs wanting to slaughter OTM cattle must meet strict standards endorsed by the Food Standards Agency (FSA) and the Independent Group set up to advise the Agency. These include a two day trial and entering into a legally binding agreement with the Meat Hygiene Service on operational procedures. _

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Hence now the new category 30-48 months


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## Amymay (18 June 2010)

Hence now the new category 30-48 months[/i]

Well to be fair - it's not clear, unless the Beast is born on the 2nd August that is......
		
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## rosie fronfelen (18 June 2010)

sorry, i haven't as yet heard this being as it only came out today.


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## Little_Miss_1 (18 June 2010)

amymay said:






			Hence now the new category 30-48 months[/i]

Well to be fair - it's not clear, unless the Beast is born on the 2nd August that is......
		
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No government legislation is easy clear.... Goodness, they all have exceptions and different rules for different things. Would make my legislation module much easier to underdtand if it was clear!!!
		
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## martlin (18 June 2010)

To be fair, there aren't many born before 1996 kicking about nowadays...
48 months takes you back to 2006


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## Cyberchick (18 June 2010)

I have eaten horse meat, I didn't realise it at the time and wasn't told until I had said how tasty it was. It really was very nice. However, I am a meat eater but I don't like handling raw meat. I eat pork but I hate eating those hog roasts where it still looks like a pig etc. I like meat but I prefer to eat it when it doesn't look like the animal anymore. 
 I would eat horse meat as long as I had no personel attachment to that horse and it wasn't being cut off something that still resembled a horse, same as I couldn't eat a home reared lamb or chicken or somthing. I get to attached. 
 Transportation for slaughter is a whole different matter though.


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## Tinseltoes (18 June 2010)

Blacklist said:



			I maybe haven't made myself clear what I meant by 'when the time comes' is when the animal comes to the emd of its useful life as a breeding animal or sports horse.
		
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Wouldnt it be nicer to let those horse """you say are at the end of use""",to BE either PUT OUT TO GRASS AND LIVE A LIFE WELL DESRVED After all they served their purpose,OR let someone have them as companions.It is sad you send them for meat. Feel sorry for the horses.


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## *hic* (18 June 2010)

sharon1959 said:



			Wouldnt it be nicer to let those horse """you say are at the end of use""",to BE either PUT OUT TO GRASS AND LIVE A LIFE WELL DESRVED After all they served their purpose,OR let someone have them as companions.It is sad you send them for meat. Feel sorry for the horses.
		
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One of the saddest horses I've known was an ex-SJer (to quite a high level) who finished her career and then did a little bit of schoolmaster teaching. When that got too much she stayed on the yard but always seemed miserable. When there were shows at the yard she used to get very excited and then distressed and seemed unable to understand that she was "retired" and that was why she wasn't going to jump. She was a super old girl and it broke my heart to see her like that. tbh if she had been plaited up and loaded on the lorry and taken to an abattoir as soon as she finished jumping seriously it would have been a lot better for her.


But as with that old lady if everyone decided to turn their horses out to grass when they were unable to work for whatever reason who would look after them all? Have you got every horse you've ever owned - or have you palmed their future off onto someone else because you can't afford to look after an oldie as well as keep a horse to ride? Perhaps you gave them to a charity which is now spending money looking after an old horse you discarded because it was past it's best and the upkeep of your discarded horse is preventing the charity from rescuing horses still with the majority of their lives in front of them.


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## Spudlet (18 June 2010)

sharon1959 said:



			Wouldnt it be nicer to let those horse """you say are at the end of use""",to BE either PUT OUT TO GRASS AND LIVE A LIFE WELL DESRVED After all they served their purpose,OR let someone have them as companions.It is sad you send them for meat. Feel sorry for the horses.
		
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In an ideal world perhaps that would be the case, but sadly not everyone has that option. I would hope that I'd be able to keep on an oldie, but people's circumstances change and sometimes there's just no way that a horse can be kept - and if it's an old or perhaps chronically injured horse, there may be nowhere for it to go.

As I keep saying, it's better for a horse to be humanely slaughtered than to be kept alive if it is suffering or has no one to care for it properly. The horse does not know any different.

I feel sorry for horses that are alive and suffering, not for horses which are dead, as they are safe from further harm.


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## Tormenta (18 June 2010)

In an ideal world they would all be pts at home but it's not an ideal world. I think I would have more concern for an unhandled animal having to be loaded to an abattoir and then slaughtered. Surely the stress is a lot worse for them than a horse who is used to human handling.  However, having never been in an abattoir and seeing how an unhandled animal is dealt with, I cannot say in anyway for certain.


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## Little_Miss_1 (18 June 2010)

sharon1959 said:



			Wouldnt it be nicer to let those horse """you say are at the end of use""",to BE either PUT OUT TO GRASS AND LIVE A LIFE WELL DESRVED After all they served their purpose,OR let someone have them as companions.It is sad you send them for meat. Feel sorry for the horses.
		
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It is a lovely ideal that horses, once having completed a charmed ridden life are allowed to munch in a field untill they peacefully PTS. But the reality is that often an owner will only be able to afford one horse, then when that horse is at retirement will not be able to fund one to ride in addition to the retired one. So will sell the retired one as 'companion'. Fair enough if people who purchaced these companions were honourable individuals looking for an equine lawnmower, however all to often people see the opportunity to make a quick £££ and then bute it up and sell it as a 'riding horse' to someone who doesnt know better. Then the poor horse could end up going aound auction rings from one unscrupulious owner to the next untill finally the right thing is done and they end up going for meat or even worse, end up somewhere like the Gray's in Ammersham. That time of passing from owner to owner, situation to situation, is stressful for the horse - let alone the final destination. If people would only do the right thing and PTS sooner then that stress wouldnot have happened.  These are the horses I feel sorry for - not the ones that get taken straight for meat. 

If you have the time and facilities to have a horse at grass then that is great, but remember that once a horse leaves your ownership you relinquish any rights over them and their future is uncertain. That is a fate far worse than death.


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## Blacklist (18 June 2010)

"Originally Posted by sharon1959  
Wouldnt it be nicer to let those horse """you say are at the end of use""",to BE either PUT OUT TO GRASS AND LIVE A LIFE WELL DESRVED After all they served their purpose,OR let someone have them as companions.It is sad you send them for meat. Feel sorry for the horses"



So you are so experienced in horse matters. We breed sport horses and it is just not possible to keep every elderly horse as a pet or give it to some do-gooder to have as a companion where it will probably end up being passed around the horse markets and ill treated. 

All our horses have a wonderful long life with us and when the time comes they go........


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## touchstone (18 June 2010)

studentvet said:



			It is a lovely ideal that horses, once having completed a charmed ridden life are allowed to munch in a field untill they peacefully PTS. But the reality is that often an owner will only be able to afford one horse, then when that horse is at retirement will not be able to fund one to ride in addition to the retired one. So will sell the retired one as 'companion'. Fair enough if people who purchaced these companions were honourable individuals looking for an equine lawnmower, however all to often people see the opportunity to make a quick £££ and then bute it up and sell it as a 'riding horse' to someone who doesnt know better. Then the poor horse could end up going aound auction rings from one unscrupulious owner to the next untill finally the right thing is done and they end up going for meat or even worse, end up somewhere like the Gray's in Ammersham. That time of passing from owner to owner, situation to situation, is stressful for the horse - let alone the final destination. If people would only do the right thing and PTS sooner then that stress wouldnot have happened.  These are the horses I feel sorry for - not the ones that get taken straight for meat. 

If you have the time and facilities to have a horse at grass then that is great, but remember that once a horse leaves your ownership you relinquish any rights over them and their future is uncertain. That is a fate far worse than death.
		
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Absolutely student vet, agree 100%


As for breeding horses for meat, I've been to auctions where unhandled coloured cob youngsters are herded in and bought by the meat man, so I would say that breeding for meat does happen in this country already.  The same breeder has dozens of horses every year that all go to markets.

Personally I feel that it is slightly hypocritical to be disgusted at eating horses when we eat other animals without thinking about it.   I wonder if horsemeat had a different name (pig = pork, cow=beef,) people would feel differently about it.   

My grandfather had a pet chicken and when his dad killed it to put food on the table he never ate it again in all his 82 years, so the emotion can pass from any animal species that you become attached to.

Meat production nowadays is sanitised, we go to the supermarkets and pick it up ready prepared in nice little packages, and in some ways I think that this has made us a little less appreciative of the life that has been sacrificed in order to feed us. We are also very wasteful wanting only select cuts which means that more animals have to be slaughtered in order to provide our wants.  

I do think that we have a lot to learn from the native cultures where food was respected, thanks was given for it and it was appreciated and nothing went to waste.


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## Little_Miss_1 (18 June 2010)

touchstone said:



			I do think that we have a lot to learn from the native cultures where food was respected, thanks was given for it and it was appreciated and nothing went to waste.
		
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I think you are right here. But not only do they appreciate the food more, I think that they appreciate the live animal more too. I have lived with communities within the atlas mountains and they effectively eat their 'pets'. They love them, care for them and spend most waking hours with them (and then the sleeping ones too bacause they tend to live bellow the house, but that's a different story!). They then kill and eat them. They feel no guilt. Because the animals are providing them with meat / produce / clothing / etc they have more respect for them when they are alive. 

I do think that we need to respect our farm animals more - we do waste far too much. But I also do not think that just because you love an animal you can't eat it. It is about respect. And if an animal has lived and is killed in a respectful manner, I will respectfully eat it!


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## touchstone (18 June 2010)

Gosh, the atlas mountains must have been a fab experience!   

I agree that it is about respect, strangely enough my other grandfather who was a slaughterman had a huge respect for his animals, and he kept his own animals for meat.  Years ago almost every family kept their own pig for food and I think doing that does make you more appreciative.   Also much nicer than the mass produced meat and at least you know exactly how it has been reared and the quality of life it has had as it is all your responsibility.
I think we have a lot to learn fromn the less westernised cultures in a lot of ways!


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## Little_Miss_1 (18 June 2010)

touchstone said:



			Gosh, the atlas mountains must have been a fab experience!   

I agree that it is about respect, strangely enough my other grandfather who was a slaughterman had a huge respect for his animals, and he kept his own animals for meat.  Years ago almost every family kept their own pig for food and I think doing that does make you more appreciative.   Also much nicer than the mass produced meat and at least you know exactly how it has been reared and the quality of life it has had as it is all your responsibility.
I think we have a lot to learn fromn the less westernised cultures in a lot of ways!
		
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Yes, it was bloomin' amazing!

You're right, alot of people have no respect for their food. In the west think we are the 'civilised' ones because we can buy a tesco value microwaveable lamb curry for 99p and that is dinner. I'm sorry, but to me - having no idea of the quality of one's food, the ethics behind the animal's welfare that has contributed to the food totally taking the 'convienience' for granted is highly uncivilised. I'd much rather (and do) but whole foods from local shops, lamb of a friend who farms it and beef from a local butcher (it was there that I worked in an abbatoir and have 100% certainty of their humane and ethical slaughter methods). If they slaughtered horses there, I'm sure I'd give it a go! Like I have said before on this post, I care about the live animal's welfare - horse, pig, goat, cow or otherwise! Once they are dead, they become meat and it is an individual's perogative to ensure that that meat meets their own ethical boundries.


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## Tinseltoes (18 June 2010)

I have a section A pony who is a companion and NO way would I pass her on to anyone else.Same goes for my Cob,my two have a home 4 life no matter what.
Years ago dealer I saw at a sales told me that NOT all the ponies go for meat,only some of them.Whether its true or not I dont know.The thought upsets me!!!


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## RoyalPolo (18 June 2010)

I would never eat horse meat nore send a horse to an abbiator because i personally would rather them pts at home without that last stressful journey but sometimes i do think its kinder for some to go there than be passed pillar to post especially older horses that less people want and there certainly seems to plenty about.

I also think though that people should be less selfish just because YOU want to ride doesn't mean because your horse is unfit to do its job that you want it to do it should be pts so you can go buy another it wouldn't hurt not to ride for a few years to give the horse some sort of retirement atleast lots of love and pampering they take up less time than a ridden horse and theres always hundreds of people with horses they never ride so borrow someone elses. I have only owned old horses and always kept them when i couldn't ride and then when i could afford 2 i got another on loan but shes unrideable also but she still stays with me because shes better off with me than with her old owner i dont really owe her anything becuase she kicks me and does nothing for me i only rode her for probably 6-8 months in the 3yrs ive owned her but big deal i would rather know her future with me than worry for the rest of my life that she was pts for no reason or is rotting in a field somewhere. I also dont have a good job but i manage to get by having two horses sometimes you just have to sacrafice other things to have them instead of being greedy all the time.


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## Little_Miss_1 (18 June 2010)

Sharon and RoyalPolo, I do think that it is lovely that you provide a loving home for your older horses - we have one old boy with us, 22or so, but he is still ridden. If you CAN provide such a lovely retirement, then do so by all means, my point was not that noone can, but that few people have such selflessness of your sacrifices (RoyalP) or determination to do right by your oldies (Sharron). For those that cannot provide such an environment, my point was that - in my opinion - PTS was a better fate than the unfortuanate circumstances of being passed around and ending up god-know's-where!


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## YorksG (18 June 2010)

Have to agree with studentvet, we keep all our horses until they no longer have sufficient quality of life (which we judge). However if people don't do this then I would much rather they had them pts (and if necessary make a few £'s) than pass them on, or send them to 'retirement homes'


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## pastie2 (18 June 2010)

yorksG said:



			Have to agree with studentvet, we keep all our horses until they no longer have sufficient quality of life (which we judge). However if people don't do this then I would much rather they had them pts (and if necessary make a few £'s) than pass them on, or send them to 'retirement homes'
		
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If I remember your Appy is very old, I might be wrong! Would you want to make a few £s from her?


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## paisley (18 June 2010)

Studentvet is right. It would be a marvellous thing if all horses were allowed happy retirements in fields but this just isnt a reality. I have no problem with horses being raised or slaughtered for meat if done properly , but hypocritically I don't want to eat them- they are too close to a companion animal for me. There seems to be an increase in horses going through the abattoirs in not great condition. They have clearly not been cared for or looked after in the way we would like. In these cases, I genuinely think they are better off going for meat, rather than their current quality of life. Today at the abattoir was as close as I ever came to wanting to 'rescue' one, as there were very young Welshies, rather thinner than they should be. I had to remind myself that they probably had who knows what health problems. If the person who owned then was a bit stingy with food, then things like worming would be quite low down on the list. Possibly if horses were seen as a more valuable meat (and regulated more stringently), they might get slightly better care and respect.


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## pastie2 (18 June 2010)

paisley said:



			Studentvet is right. It would be a marvellous thing if all horses were allowed happy retirements in fields but this just isnt a reality. I have no problem with horses being raised or slaughtered for meat if done properly , but hypocritically I don't want to eat them- they are too close to a companion animal for me. There seems to be an increase in horses going through the abattoirs in not great condition. They have clearly not been cared for or looked after in the way we would like. In these cases, I genuinely think they are better off going for meat, rather than their current quality of life. Today at the abattoir was as close as I ever came to wanting to 'rescue' one, as there were very young Welshies, rather thinner than they should be. I had to remind myself that they probably had who knows what health problems. If the person who owned then was a bit stingy with food, then things like worming would be quite low down on the list. Possibly if horses were seen as a more valuable meat (and regulated more stringently), they might get slightly better care and respect.
		
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Dream on! If only that were true.


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## YorksG (18 June 2010)

The Old Appy would certainly not bring a few quid in now, she has been dead for over 2 years! She was shot at home and removed by our local knacker firm (actually now 'pet crematorium, but abbatoir in the past), she was not a traveller at all, so would have stressed. I wouldn't take our oldies, as they would have to travel a long way to an abbatoi, where we would receive payment and I feel that woild be unfair, however I have no problem if others choose to take that route.


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## Tinseltoes (19 June 2010)

RoyalPolo said:



			I would never eat horse meat nore send a horse to an abbiator because i personally would rather them pts at home without that last stressful journey but sometimes i do think its kinder for some to go there than be passed pillar to post especially older horses that less people want and there certainly seems to plenty about.

I also think though that people should be less selfish just because YOU want to ride doesn't mean because your horse is unfit to do its job that you want it to do it should be pts so you can go buy another it wouldn't hurt not to ride for a few years to give the horse some sort of retirement atleast lots of love and pampering they take up less time than a ridden horse and theres always hundreds of people with horses they never ride so borrow someone elses. I have only owned old horses and always kept them when i couldn't ride and then when i could afford 2 i got another on loan but shes unrideable also but she still stays with me because shes better off with me than with her old owner i dont really owe her anything becuase she kicks me and does nothing for me i only rode her for probably 6-8 months in the 3yrs ive owned her but big deal i would rather know her future with me than worry for the rest of my life that she was pts for no reason or is rotting in a field somewhere. I also dont have a good job but i manage to get by having two horses sometimes you just have to sacrafice other things to have them instead of being greedy all the time.
		
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Well said.My little section A is a pet who I have on loan to buy,shes never been broken in and shes now 9 years old.She is staying with me for the rest of her life and if she needs to be pts she will be up the field. She keeps my cob company.My cob who was bought in 2005,he was broken in as a 7 year old  last year and hes hardly ridden,but both of them  will stay with me the rest of his life. I will NEVER sell or send my animals anywhere.
I think some people are mean  sending the horse/pony off for meat,because they are no use to the owner.


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## CalllyH (19 June 2010)

I thought chorizo was pork? Its gorgeous!


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## Blacklist (19 June 2010)

Some people commenting on this post want to remove their heads from the clouds of the perfect world.

In the perfect world we would all like to keep our elderly or unfit horses till the day they die, some dopped up on bute (or its alternatives) kept on meagre rations to stop laminitis. Sadly the world isn't perfect so cost, being practical and humane comes into it. 

Some abattoirs do a collection service and if preferred the horse can be shot at home then taken immediately to the abattoir for processing.


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## Fairynuff (19 June 2010)

mtj said:



			If you eaten Chorizo or  Italian sausage you've probably already munched an  equine![/QUOTE
I am so sick of hearing this claptrap. Italian salami and Italian sausages do NOT contain horsemeat. Horsemeat is NOT used in sausages and there is no horsemeat in salami unless it is HORSEMEAT SALAMI.Horsemeat costs more that beef, pork etc and one has to specifically buy it for what it is. It is not bunged in willy nilly to make up fillings. Please stop talking through your nose. I am being very polite here! Mairi.
PS, I know because I live in Italy (23 years).
		
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## paisley (19 June 2010)

Sorry, its a serious subject , but the phrase 'willy-nilly' in conjunction with salami has put me straight in snigger mode! Cue the Benny Hill music- oh dear.


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## Fairynuff (19 June 2010)

paisley said:



			Sorry, its a serious subject , but the phrase 'willy-nilly' in conjunction with salami has put me straight in snigger mode! Cue the Benny Hill music- oh dear.
		
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and if I were to mention the word 'cucumber?' Doh, some peeps!!!


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## Blacklist (19 June 2010)

Mairi said:





mtj said:



			If you eaten Chorizo or  Italian sausage you've probably already munched an  equine![/QUOTE
I am so sick of hearing this claptrap. Italian salami and Italian sausages do NOT contain horsemeat. Horsemeat is NOT used in sausages and there is no horsemeat in salami unless it is HORSEMEAT SALAMI.Horsemeat costs more that beef, pork etc and one has to specifically buy it for what it is. It is not bunged in willy nilly to make up fillings. Please stop talking through your nose. I am being very polite here! Mairi.
PS, I know because I live in Italy (23 years).
		
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Mairi

Perdonate il mio imperfetto italiano scritto

I cavallo sono consumati in Italia e, talvolta, come salsiccia nelle zone rurali. Sono assolutamente aperto un vaso di Pandora con questo post - ma il soggetto aveva bisogno di una messa in onda

PS Parlando attraverso il naso è buona ma la maggior parte si parla attraverso il loro culo! ??
		
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## paisley (19 June 2010)

And I also spent enough time in Italy to recognise the naughty words like 'culo' !


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## Little_Miss_1 (19 June 2010)

paisley said:



			And I also spent enough time in Italy to recognise the naughty words like 'culo' !
		
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Hehe, naughty naughty!!!


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## brighteyes (19 June 2010)

fumanchu said:



I have taken several horses/ponies to Potters.

some are owned by myself, others owned by good friends who know i would do the best for the pony..by that, i would take them, wait with them till the end...knowing i would be there.

it is something that has never bothered me...
when anyone has livestock...eventually they will have deadstock.

Death is a fact of life.
		
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Ah, but could you then put them in a stew...


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## Blacklist (19 June 2010)

fumanchu said:



			mmmm....theres a thought
		
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Cheval au Vin!


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## brighteyes (19 June 2010)

Who is talking out of their arse?


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## Little_Miss_1 (19 June 2010)

fumanchu said:



			no idea?....not moi?
		
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No no no, not you - 'culo' is italian for...


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## chessy (20 June 2010)

Well, I can't believe I've actually sat here and read the whole 18 pages of this thread. I really need to go to _bed_...

I do eat meat, but I personally could not eat an animal that I have used as a companion. It just doesn't sit right with me in my head.

Also, regarding keeping older, retired or injured horses as field companions - Some people just cannot afford to do this. I certainly couldn't. But it was heartbreaking enough seeing my last horse go to it's new owner (he's now retired in a field where I can visit him), I think I'd probably keel over if it was the meatman who took him!


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## ofcourseyoucan (20 June 2010)

well here i go! it is not that easy to send a horse for meat! all you NICE owners that have signed your section 9 and sold have absolutely no control so those horses will troll the markets! and be passed around! a blank section 9 can go to turners or potters and be shot nicely and calmly! you get paid on the dead weight! once the horse is dead it is dead! doesnt matter where it goes! so get on your high horse! if you do not want your horse to enter the foreign food chain pay the price and put it down and cremate! but all you fluffy bunnies you would not sell/share loan your golden oldies you would/will find the guts and money to put them down at home! my lovelies will leave here dead one way or the other! and no they arent a part of the meat chain they are/were my life and i will pay for them to move on!


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## ofcourseyoucan (20 June 2010)

and yes i have eaten horse meat in hungary! very tasty! would buy horse steak if avaiable! i also eat the pheasant duck turkey goose and cockerill that i hatch and raise tho they dont have names! get a life! if you do NOT want your darling to go for meat do not try to loan share etc. bite the bullet have your horse put down! at home!


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## Fairynuff (20 June 2010)

Blacklist said:





Mairi said:



			Mairi

Perdonate il mio imperfetto italiano scritto

I cavallo sono consumati in Italia e, talvolta, come salsiccia nelle zone rurali. Sono assolutamente aperto un vaso di Pandora con questo post - ma il soggetto aveva bisogno di una messa in onda

PS Parlando attraverso il naso è buona ma la maggior parte si parla attraverso il loro culo! ??
		
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too true!!!
 PS, your Italian is actually very good! Better than mine.
		
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## Blacklist (20 June 2010)

Mairi said:





Blacklist said:



			too true!!!
 PS, your Italian is actually very good! Better than mine.
		
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Thamk you! I only speak a little Italain and spent an hour with a dictionary.
		
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## Blacklist (20 June 2010)

brighteyes said:



			Who is talking out of their arse?
		
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If you can't beat them!


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## BeckyX (20 June 2010)

okay so i am wayyyy to late here but an interesting post...! i am vegetarian so obviously i don't eat meat  and don't worry i am not one of those hippy  peopel forcing it on other, its my choice  the whole people not eating horse meat is the same as English peeps don't eat dogs or cats (well most people  ) they just cant deal with it especially mos horse owners, the whole attachment thing !! 
i just cant do the whole eating insides..eww and killing thing  i am a little bit fussy when it comes to food  but at the end of the day its peoples choice with what they eat so go ahead!!


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## Blacklist (20 June 2010)

BeckyX said:



			okay so i am wayyyy to late here but an interesting post...! i am vegetarian so obviously i don't eat meat  and don't worry i am not one of those hippy  peopel forcing it on other, its my choice  the whole people not eating horse meat is the same as English peeps don't eat dogs or cats (well most people  ) they just cant deal with it especially mos horse owners, the whole attachment thing !! 
i just cant do the whole eating insides..eww and killing thing  i am a little bit fussy when it comes to food  but at the end of the day its peoples choice with what they eat so go ahead!!
		
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Cats and dogs are NOT considered a 'meat' or 'farm' animal in Europe


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## Blacklist (20 June 2010)

Does anybody know how many horse abatoirs there are in the UK?


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## Cuffey (20 June 2010)

Blacklist said:



			Does anybody know how many horse abatoirs there are in the UK?
		
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2 licenced to produce meat for human consumption


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## Blacklist (20 June 2010)

Cuffey said:



			2 licenced to produce meat for human consumption
		
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Thanks, Potters and Turners I presume


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## BeckyX (21 June 2010)

Blacklist said:



			Cats and dogs are NOT considered a 'meat' or 'farm' animal in Europe
		
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yes but what about those mountain people that eat guinea pigs etc and dogs!?


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## madeleine1 (21 June 2010)

19yrs is not the end of a horses life in most cases


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## itsme123 (21 June 2010)

pastie2 said:



			Do you not think that there are many farmers looking after their cattle and sheep in the same way as JG. I can assure you that there are many, when the market goes down so does the income for these farmers, they just cannot afford to feed them. Anyway would you really like to be in the countryside with field after field of farmed horses. Cattle are looked after in a completely differant way than horses. Would you really like a farmer next to your land breeding for meat. Blimeythere is enough of a fuss on here if someone sees a horse with the wrong bloody rug on in a field!!!
		
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Horse ARE domesticated cattle. They eat out of a rubber trug because we've taught them to. Most would prefer to eat off the floor. 

Cattle and horses (as a herd) can be cared for in the same way. Mass vaccination, barn kept, grazed en masse in the spring and summer. 

It is us humans who have caused them to get 'vices' and to feel the cold. The way we have bred and reared them. 

They'd be just as happy stood fetlock deep in mud, wooly coated, munching on a huge bale of hay than wrapped up like turkeys stood in a stable on their own. 

I wouldn't give a monkeys if the farmer decided to breed horses for meat. So long as they were cared for. I'd rather see that than someone unknowledgeable buying foals and giving them such a bad start to life that they'll be passed pillar to post....


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## Blacklist (21 June 2010)

itsme123 said:



			Horse ARE domesticated cattle. They eat out of a rubber trug because we've taught them to. Most would prefer to eat off the floor. 

Cattle and horses (as a herd) can be cared for in the same way. Mass vaccination, barn kept, grazed en masse in the spring and summer. 

It is us humans who have caused them to get 'vices' and to feel the cold. The way we have bred and reared them. 

They'd be just as happy stood fetlock deep in mud, wooly coated, munching on a huge bale of hay than wrapped up like turkeys stood in a stable on their own. 

I wouldn't give a monkeys if the farmer decided to breed horses for meat. So long as they were cared for. I'd rather see that than someone unknowledgeable buying foals and giving them such a bad start to life that they'll be passed pillar to post....
		
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Very well put


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## Blacklist (21 June 2010)

BeckyX said:



			yes but what about those mountain people that eat guinea pigs etc and dogs!?
		
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Guinea pigs are native of South America, not Europe - I think you may have your facts wrong!?


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## fumanchu (21 June 2010)

itsme123 said:



			Horse ARE domesticated cattle. They eat out of a rubber trug because we've taught them to. Most would prefer to eat off the floor. 

Cattle and horses (as a herd) can be cared for in the same way. Mass vaccination, barn kept, grazed en masse in the spring and summer. 

It is us humans who have caused them to get 'vices' and to feel the cold. The way we have bred and reared them. 

They'd be just as happy stood fetlock deep in mud, wooly coated, munching on a huge bale of hay than wrapped up like turkeys stood in a stable on their own. 

I wouldn't give a monkeys if the farmer decided to breed horses for meat. So long as they were cared for. I'd rather see that than someone unknowledgeable buying foals and giving them such a bad start to life that they'll be passed pillar to post....
		
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well said.

Sadly they aren't classed the same as cattle, so dont have the same welfare regs to be adhered to.
Neither are they classed as domestic animals, so those regs are ignored too.

If horses and ponies were to be classed as meat animals/livestock in this country, they would certainly have a better life in some situations.
Jamie Grey just wouldn't have been able to keep his "livestock" in such conditions if horses were classed as farm animals.


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## Blacklist (21 June 2010)

fumanchu said:



			well said.

Sadly they aren't classed the same as cattle, so dont have the same welfare regs to be adhered to.
Neither are they classed as domestic animals, so those regs are ignored too.

If horses and ponies were to be classed as meat animals/livestock in this country, they would certainly have a better life in some situations.
Jamie Grey just wouldn't have been able to keep his "livestock" in such conditions if horses were classed as farm animals.
		
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A valid point


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## pastie2 (21 June 2010)

I am sorry to disagree with you, I live in a farming area, some farmers are good some are not. Without the rose specs on, I see cattle treated apallingly. Dairy cows that are so lame they can barely walk, up to their knees in slurry all winter, bad quality hay/silage. Feet should be looked after in cows just as they should in horses. They are not normally, just put through a formaldahyde(sp) foot bath every now an then. To say that horses are the same as cattle is like comparing dogs with cats. Bovines do not have the same relationships with people, even pet ones. Bovines are transported to market in packed out wagons and treated with little or no respect when they get to market and abbatoir. There are good farmers whose cattle live like racehorses, but lets look at the worst case scenario, the farmers who would not treat these animals with the respect they deserve. Cattle generally are placid, horses on the other hand tend to panic, do you think that as meat animals and unhandled would have an easy time of it? Lets not compare it to the poor foal, horse bought at a market by unknowledgable people, that will always happen and its dreadfull. Why should we introduce another welfare issue into this equine world?


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## Blacklist (21 June 2010)

pastie2 said:



			I am sorry to disagree with you, I live in a farming area, some farmers are good some are not. Without the rose specs on, I see cattle treated apallingly. Dairy cows that are so lame they can barely walk, up to their knees in slurry all winter, bad quality hay/silage. Feet should be looked after in cows just as they should in horses. They are not normally, just put through a formaldahyde(sp) foot bath every now an then. To say that horses are the same as cattle is like comparing dogs with cats. Bovines do not have the same relationships with people, even pet ones. Bovines are transported to market in packed out wagons and treated with little or no respect when they get to market and abbatoir. There are good farmers whose cattle live like racehorses, but lets look at the worst case scenario, the farmers who would not treat these animals with the respect they deserve. Cattle generally are placid, horses on the other hand tend to panic, do you think that as meat animals and unhandled would have an easy time of it? Lets not compare it to the poor foal, horse bought at a market by unknowledgable people, that will always happen and its dreadfull. Why should we introduce another welfare issue into this equine world?
		
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Farming in my area is very good and being a farmers son we have always looked after our animals well - after all they are an investment and therfore should be looked after and also because it is humane. 

Don't forget that one of the reasons you see good competition horses in the continent is that they tend to separate the wheat from the chaff - eating the chaff and competing the wheat.

Welfare would definitely improve and not deteriorate as you suggest, things would be more regulated for a start.


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## pastie2 (21 June 2010)

As you are a farmers son, in Yorkshire so a profitable and good area for farming, you will have little idea about LFA. That is the area I live in, farmers are struggling with their dairy herds and health is compromised. If they did find themselves diversifying into horse meat, I can asure you that the same welfare they have for cattle would be continued into horses. I dont like seeing this in cattle and I am sure I would be equally upset with horses. Please take off your specs rose coloured, Yorkshire is a completely differant kettle of fish to the farming practices in rural Cumbria.


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## Spudlet (21 June 2010)

Pastie, you can't generalise for the entire country from your one small area.


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## Blacklist (21 June 2010)

pastie2 said:



			As you are a farmers son, in Yorkshire so a profitable and good area for farming, you will have little idea about LFA. That is the area I live in, farmers are struggling with their dairy herds and health is compromised. If they did find themselves diversifying into horse meat, I can asure you that the same welfare they have for cattle would be continued into horses. I dont like seeing this in cattle and I am sure I would be equally upset with horses. Please take off your specs rose coloured, Yorkshire is a completely differant kettle of fish to the farming practices in rural Cumbria.
		
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By the way we are not dairy farmers. Although I am a farmers son that is not my profession I see many farms when I travel throughout the UK and abroad with my work.

On this post you are accused me of several things so far including being a horse meat dealer, living an easy life in Yorkshire and wearing rose tinted specs - I can assure you I live in the 'real' world unlike some I could mention. I could say to you please remove your head from up your ....... - but I'm too polite.


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## M_G (21 June 2010)

Blacklist said:



			I am probably opening a LARGE CAN OF WORMS, here goes:

What does the forum think on the subject of eating horses. If a horse has had a good life and is humanely slaughtered here in UK then exported for meat to the Continent - why is the right/wrong? and why don't we eat horseflesh here in the UK. Is is not really any different to an agricultural meat animal - except we ride them.
		
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I dont have a problem with eating any animal as long as its cared for properly throughout its life and given a quick and humane slaughter


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## pastie2 (21 June 2010)

Spudlet said:



			Pastie, you can't generalise for the entire country from your one small area.

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No Spudlet I am not generalising, Cumbria is a rather large county, not as you say a small area. The farmers that are struggling to earn a living are most likely to diversify into such as horse meat production. As far as I know farming is still productive in Yorkshire, so the need to diversify will be a bonus rather than a need. If the government handed out subsidies for horse farming I can assure you that a lot of farmers in Cumbria will jump on the band wagon. With little or no knowledge of horses.


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## Spudlet (21 June 2010)

Who on earth said anything about subsidies? Do you really think a government department that has to make £160 MILLION of cost savings just for starters is likely to start handing out extra subsidies??????


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## pastie2 (21 June 2010)

Blacklist said:



			By the way we are not dairy farmers. Although I am a farmers son that is not my profession I see many farms when I travel throughout the UK and abroad with my work.

On this post you are accused me of several things so far including being a horse meat dealer, living an easy life in Yorkshire and wearing rose tinted specs - I can assure you I live in the 'real' world unlike some I could mention. I could say to you please remove your head from up your ....... - but I'm too polite.
		
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You started a thread that was going to be emotive, as I seem to be the only one that has questioned your  post you seem to have a problem with me. I have the same right as anyone else on this forum to air my thoughts. As for being too polite, I think you have been quite clear about how you feel about me! Thank you.


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## pastie2 (21 June 2010)

Spudlet said:



			Who on earth said anything about subsidies? Do you really think a government department that has to make £160 MILLION of cost savings just for starters is likely to start handing out extra subsidies??????
		
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Do you even have a clue about farming? Look it up. LFA areas have government help, be it sheep, cattle what ever.


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## Blacklist (21 June 2010)

pastie2 said:



			You started a thread that was going to be emotive, as I seem to be the only one that has questioned your  post you seem to have a problem with me. I have the same right as anyone else on this forum to air my thoughts. As for being too polite, I think you have been quite clear about how you feel about me! Thank you.
		
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With respect it is a valid post and there have been some informed responses for and against 'Horses for Meat'

You are the one who has attacked me personally on various occasion.


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## pastie2 (21 June 2010)

Blacklist said:



			With respect it is a valid post and there have been some informed responses for and against 'Horses for Meat'

You are the one who has attacked me personally on various occasion.
		
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sorry!xxx It is just discussion and I didnt mean to be rude! I just find the subject matter a bit alarming. xxxxxxxxxxxxx


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## Spudlet (21 June 2010)

pastie2 said:



			Do you even have a clue about farming? Look it up. LFA areas have government help, be it sheep, cattle what ever.
		
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You are so unbelievably rude and unpleasant! And then you go around acting like a victim - I've never seen you add anything of value to a thread, it's all argument and vitriole with you. Why are you so bitter?

You assume that help will remain in place - do you ever switch the news on? The government has to make savings of £100 billion. Do you honestly think subsidies will be immune?


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## Blacklist (21 June 2010)

pastie2 said:



			You started a thread that was going to be emotive, as I seem to be the only one that has questioned your  post you seem to have a problem with me. I have the same right as anyone else on this forum to air my thoughts. As for being too polite, I think you have been quite clear about how you feel about me! Thank you.
		
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To add:

Incidentally in my post I was looking at the whole picture the UNITED KINGDOM not just Cumbria.

I have horses in my blood there breeding, care and attention - In my thirty odd years on this earth I have delivered numerous foals which has been a privilege been involved in the difficult sad task of letting a horse go when the time came. On the flip side I have witnessed horrible cruelty some intentional some not on horses which if they had gone to Potters or Turners from their original homes would NOT have suffered their various indignities.


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## Little_Miss_1 (21 June 2010)

my goodness - I popped away for a few days and totally have lost the plot of this thread... handbags anyone??!?!?!? 

*runs and hides!!!!*


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## rosie fronfelen (21 June 2010)

Spudlet said:



			You are so unbelievably rude and unpleasant! And then you go around acting like a victim - I've never seen you add anything of value to a thread, it's all argument and vitriole with you. Why are you so bitter?

You assume that help will remain in place - do you ever switch the news on? The government has to make savings of £100 billion. Do you honestly think subsidies will be immune?
		
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to stick my oar in, can we NOT get onto the subject of subsidies- thank you!


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## Blacklist (21 June 2010)

studentvet said:



			my goodness - I popped away for a few days and totally have lost the plot of this thread... handbags anyone??!?!?!? 

*runs and hides!!!!*
		
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Pistols at dawn or should I say Hoof Picks!


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## pastie2 (21 June 2010)

Spudlet said:



			You are so unbelievably rude and unpleasant! And then you go around acting like a victim - I've never seen you add anything of value to a thread, it's all argument and vitriole with you. Why are you so bitter?

You assume that help will remain in place - do you ever switch the news on? The government has to make savings of £100 billion. Do you honestly think subsidies will be immune?
		
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What a horrid reponse, Spudet I think that you should look through some of my posts in more  detail. Who do you think you are? Quite clearly we have little in common with each other, so please dont reply to my posts and I shall resist the urge to reply to yours. It is a forum and I am entitled to answer how I please. Thank you. And Goodbye Spud.


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## Little_Miss_1 (21 June 2010)

Blacklist said:



			Pistols at dawn or should I say Hoof Picks!
		
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Okay, I'm armed! But i have no clue who is on who's ''side'' now... and it's only a plastic one that I got free at Burghley so may not be very intimidating....


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## Blacklist (22 June 2010)

studentvet said:



			Okay, I'm armed! But i have no clue who is on who's ''side'' now... and it's only a plastic one that I got free at Burghley so may not be very intimidating....
		
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My Hoof Pick is metal - so there! By the way I'm on the winning side (I think!)


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## rosie fronfelen (22 June 2010)

a metal curry comb will be better- scratchy!


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## Blacklist (22 June 2010)

rosiefronfelen said:



			a metal curry comb will be better- scratchy!
		
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Oh no - my hoof pick has a brush on it!


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## rosie fronfelen (22 June 2010)

no,no- no comparison to a sharpened up curry comb, what will your brush do?


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## Blacklist (22 June 2010)

rosiefronfelen said:



			no,no- no comparison to a sharpened up curry comb, what will your brush do?
		
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Byddech yn synnu (You'd be suprised!)


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## Blacklist (22 June 2010)

Somehow I have missed this: Horse meat may be banned in Italy

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/7182202/Horse-meat-faces-ban-in-Italy.html


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## pastie2 (22 June 2010)

Blacklist said:



			Somehow I have missed this: Horse meat may be banned in Italy

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/7182202/Horse-meat-faces-ban-in-Italy.html

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There you are then.


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## fumanchu (22 June 2010)

Blacklist said:



			Somehow I have missed this: Horse meat may be banned in Italy

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/7182202/Horse-meat-faces-ban-in-Italy.html

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Can't see it happening personally...far too much money involved.


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## Blacklist (22 June 2010)

pastie2 said:



			There you are then.
		
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It looks as though it will be thrown out the Italians love their caval meat.


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## brighteyes (22 June 2010)

From article

One person in Venice wrote: "Why is the government trying to abolish something that is buried in the roots of Italian culture? If it is banned it will just be driven underground and there will be a thriving black market."

Just like the Mafia!


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## Piedpiper (22 June 2010)

Sorry... but on the subject of subsidies, it's my understanding that all subsidies are going to be eventually removed in the same way as in New Zealand. This will have a dramatic effect, not only on the farmer, but also on us as consumers. The price of food will have to reflect it's true production cost so it will inevitably go up. This will mean that farming practices 'should' improve as farmers will only be paid the reflective value of what they're producing ie. you produce a bad product, you get paid poorly. The subsidy system is already changing to reflect this, and is more of a whole farm payment as opposed to an per head of animal payment. As someone said, governments can't afford to keep paying these premiums, instead we'll have to pay for what we eat.
I have no problem eating horse meat as long as the animals have been treated properly and slaughtered as humanely as possible.


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## Honey08 (22 June 2010)

I've been away a few days too.  I wanted to add a few comments...

1.  How can Yorkshire be described as a totally different farming community from Cumbria?  Yes some parts of the region are arable, with good grazing etc, but the part I live in is very like Cumbria generally spreaking.. hills, poor grass, and moorland..

2.  How well farmers do is generally dictated by the supermarkets cutting costs.  This impacts on how well the animals are kept, again generally speaking...

4.  I studied Italian years ago (so this thread was a nice little revision session for me), and at uni we were taught that Italy votes for more EU laws than any other member of the EU.  It also breaks more rules than any other EU member (this was info I was given 12years ago, so they may have been beaten on these areas since then). So I wouldn't hold my breath on them stopping eating horsemeat even if it were banned...

3.  Where were the free hoofpicks at Burghley???


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## rosie fronfelen (22 June 2010)

Blacklist said:



			It looks as though it will be thrown out the Italians love their caval meat.
		
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the Italians eat any old ****!!


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## Little_Miss_1 (22 June 2010)

Honey08 said:



			3.  Where were the free hoofpicks at Burghley???
		
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PMSL at the threats of sharpened combs! 

I'm still with blacklist - similar ideas on eating a bit of horse and he has a hoof pick WITH A SPIKEY BRUSH!!!!!! 

They were at the H&H stall! You did a free lucky dip thing and if you didnt (which I never do!) then they give you a hoof pick. Same thing happened at Olympia. Plan to get another at Burghley 2010. 

So I have TWO free plastic hoof picks... bet those sharpened comb people are scared now!!!


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## reindeerlover (22 June 2010)

You used to get free hoof picks with some pony magazines in the old days, they looked like they were made of teracotta and I doubt they'd work well as weapons or hoof picks. I had 2, I kept them on my shelf of horse things for "when-I-get-a-horse".


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## Little_Miss_1 (22 June 2010)

Farrierlover said:



			You used to get free hoof picks with some pony magazines in the old days, they looked like they were made of teracotta and I doubt they'd work well as weapons or hoof picks. I had 2, I kept them on my shelf of horse things for "when-I-get-a-horse".
		
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Ohhh, I remember those! I dont have any though damn it.... 

*goes rummaging through tack box to find weapons*

I can raise you one old hoof oil brush - plus my two free hoof picks of course. Bet everyone is quaking in their boots!


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## Blacklist (22 June 2010)

studentvet said:



			Ohhh, I remember those! I dont have any though damn it.... 

*goes rummaging through tack box to find weapons*

I can raise you one old hoof oil brush - plus my two free hoof picks of course. Bet everyone is quaking in their boots!
		
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I think we'd better behave and get serious!!!!! Or have we lost the plot!


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## pastie2 (22 June 2010)

Blacklist said:



			I think we'd better behave and get serious!!!!! Or have we lost the plot!
		
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Sums it up really, dont you think?


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## sgill (23 June 2010)

A "Good Life" for a horse includes the owners responsibility to NOT send it to the slaughter pen. Watch the videos...slaughter is NOT humane.


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## zefragile (23 June 2010)

sgill said:



			A "Good Life" for a horse includes the owners responsibility to NOT send it to the slaughter pen. Watch the videos...slaughter is NOT humane.
		
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I've watched videos of one the UK slaughterhouses and it was all very profession and calm. I didn't have a problem with it.


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## sgill (23 June 2010)

Please send me the address of the video you watched. I know it is not calm and serene. Horses are flight animals, they smell and sense what will happen... 
besides that, the chemicals in horsemeat make it an unhealthy product. Check on the info on website flyingfilly.com


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## zefragile (23 June 2010)

sgill said:



			Please send me the address of the video you watched. I know it is not calm and serene. Horses are flight animals, they smell and sense what will happen... 
besides that, the chemicals in horsemeat make it an unhealthy product. Check on the info on website flyingfilly.com
		
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I don't know the address, there was a link on here ages ago. And actually it was very calm, the horse would be led in quietly and it was all over very quickly.


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## sgill (23 June 2010)

Processing plants are usually set up to handle 100's of equines in a day. The enter long chutes and slide or are electrically prodded into a Kill box.
The horses are terrified, and often the stun bolt does not work (horses are naturally quicker and more headshy than cattle and the killbolts are shaped for cattle not horses). 
This means many horses are "processed" while still alive. 10% live vivisection is considered "acceptable" processing standards. That means out of 100,000 horses killed, 10,000 end up being cut up by electric chain saw while still alive. Hardly humane by any standards and certainly not a good deal for "Old dobbin". Check out the chemicals (harmful to humans i.e. known carcinogens) found in horse meat.
If you want to eat it at least be an informed consumer, it's your "liver".
Again, you can find research to back up what I'm saying at flyingfilly.com

or go to links for AWI or HSUS.


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## zefragile (23 June 2010)

We're talking about slaughter in the UNITED KINGDOM. Not sure what the HSUS would have to do with slaughter in the UK.


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## paisley (23 June 2010)

The HSUS has nice but rather unrealistic ideas on how to deal with unwanted horses. It would be lovely if every horse could be re-homed or just not bred in the first place. But it is rather disingenuous of the HSUS to talk about &#8220;horrific form of slaughter in Mexico and Canada. These horses are stabbed multiple times in the neck with a "puntilla knife" to sever their spinal cords&#8221; and  &#8220;tens of thousands of live horses are transported across the border to Mexico and Canada for slaughter&#8221; when banning horse slaughter in America contributes to this. Abattoirs are not nice, but not every horse is rehomed and places like Potters show how it can be done with respect and humanely. I know this a thread about the UK but I feel the US has shown how it can go very wrong and has done horses there no good at all.


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## fumanchu (23 June 2010)

paisley said:



			places like Potters show how it can be done with respect and humanely. I know this a thread about the UK but I feel the US has shown how it can go very wrong and has done horses there no good at all.
		
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Agreed.

There should be more Abattoirs in this country.


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## Blacklist (23 June 2010)

sgill said:



			Please send me the address of the video you watched. I know it is not calm and serene. Horses are flight animals, they smell and sense what will happen... 
besides that, the chemicals in horsemeat make it an unhealthy product. Check on the info on website flyingfilly.com
		
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I have seen 6 horses slaughtered 3 at Crothers in Yorkshire and 3 at Turners in Derbyshire. It was a hard thing to watch but I wanted to be sure it was done properly and humanely. In all 6 cases it was, the horses were treated with dignity and it was very quick and humane. 

I think on the whole we have better standards here in the UK than in the US. 

It was much better than some other methods of horse disposal I have seen


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## Blacklist (23 June 2010)

sgill said:



			Processing plants are usually set up to handle 100's of equines in a day. The enter long chutes and slide or are electrically prodded into a Kill box.
The horses are terrified, and often the stun bolt does not work (horses are naturally quicker and more headshy than cattle and the killbolts are shaped for cattle not horses). 
This means many horses are "processed" while still alive. 10% live vivisection is considered "acceptable" processing standards. That means out of 100,000 horses killed, 10,000 end up being cut up by electric chain saw while still alive. Hardly humane by any standards and certainly not a good deal for "Old dobbin". Check out the chemicals (harmful to humans i.e. known carcinogens) found in horse meat.
If you want to eat it at least be an informed consumer, it's your "liver".
Again, you can find research to back up what I'm saying at flyingfilly.com

or go to links for AWI or HSUS.
		
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You are talking about the US? my thread is about the UK.

I think if you saw cattle, sheep or pigs killed you would find that equally disturbing to watch - I can't think of many people who get pleasure in watching animals killed for meat or otherwise. It is a necessary evil for us 'meat' eaters and I personally have to problem with it if humanely done whether it be cattle, horses etc.

But i am moving off my original thread now:

"What does the forum think on the subject of eating horses. If a horse has had a good life and is humanely slaughtered here in UK then exported for meat to the Continent - why is the right/wrong? and why don't we eat horseflesh here in the UK. Is is not really any different to an agricultural meat animal - except we ride them."


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## Blacklist (24 June 2010)

Thank you to everyone for their replies which have had a mix of opinions


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