# Rearing in hand



## Mahoganybay (30 December 2010)

My mare has on the last two occasions when leading out of the field reared in hand, she is led in a rope halter (and has been for about a year) and the last occasion she was the last one out of the field (so no issue with not wanting to leave the herd). 

On both occasions it seems to have been when i am asking her to slow down her walk, it appears to me to be a dominance issue and they are full on rears with waving front legs etc.

I have kept calm and and pulled her back down and then asked her to walk on nicely again, she does about 3 or 4 rears and then calmly walks on (at my speed).

All checks done on a 6 monthly basis i.e.  back/teeth/saddle etc and where all done in Nov.

Any thoughts on whether it is a dominance issue, she is a very marish mare. Have to add that she had not been ridden for 2 weeks due to whether but has had turnout and feed been altered to accomodate.

Edited to add... am hoping this does not happen in ridden work when i can eventually get back on board


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## Leg_end (30 December 2010)

I would say its high jinxs but if it continues into ridden work I would get her feet checked ASAP.


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## better half (30 December 2010)

I asked how to slow a fast walking horse down and got told to speed up my walk.   If she gets upset when you pull down on a rope halter use a normal headcollar and get her thinking more about you by stopping and starting with no feel on the rope.  Watch this clip to see how to do that with just a normal headcollar.

Good Luck!



http://www.countrychannel.tv/player.php/?player=TheNewCountryChannel&ct=1&ids=290084


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## Mahoganybay (31 December 2010)

Leg_end said:



			I would say its high jinxs but if it continues into ridden work I would get her feet checked ASAP.
		
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Thanks for that, am hoping it is just high jinxs and she is certainly full of herself at the moment, have booked an indoor school for tomorrow (sad i know on New Years Day) so will see how she goes ridden (will be taking my lunge line to get some freshness off).

Wish me luck lol....


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## Mahoganybay (31 December 2010)

better half said:



			I asked how to slow a fast walking horse down and got told to speed up my walk.   If she gets upset when you pull down on a rope halter use a normal headcollar and get her thinking more about you by stopping and starting with no feel on the rope.  Watch this clip to see how to do that with just a normal headcollar.

Good Luck!



http://www.countrychannel.tv/player.php/?player=TheNewCountryChannel&ct=1&ids=290084

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Went to go on the site and my security blocked it, will try and have another look, sounds interesting


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## TheApprentice (31 December 2010)

I have a gelding who is normally completely laid back, very easy to handle etc etc- he did this a couple of times last year and it was when he was being turned out in a field in which he was the most dominant of the herd. Never had the problem again once he moved and wasnt at the top of the pecking order anymore; I put it down to dominance


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## Cedars (31 December 2010)

My foal did this once...swung the end of the leadrope on to her stomach (the soft end), gave her such a shock she came down with a thump and has never thought about it again.


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## Mahoganybay (31 December 2010)

TheApprentice said:



			I have a gelding who is normally completely laid back, very easy to handle etc etc- he did this a couple of times last year and it was when he was being turned out in a field in which he was the most dominant of the herd. Never had the problem again once he moved and wasnt at the top of the pecking order anymore; I put it down to dominance
		
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She is the dominant mare of an all mare field and normally is such a poppet to lead, comes flying up the field to call and although a little strong to lead (hence the rope halter) has never reared in hand like this. 

I suggested a dominance thing as she was very squealy whilst rearing.

Flamehead, such good advice and if she does it again i will try the under belly slap...


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## Mahoganybay (31 December 2010)

better half said:



			If you go to http://www.thinkequus.com there is a link on the link's page then you need to go to watch now - equestrian video's - Horsemanship - Michael Peace loading

We are getting a new Video camera and hope to put up a lot more video's in 2011.
		
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Thanks for that, will have a look later.


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## Cedars (31 December 2010)

I wouldnt do it with a flighty horse though! You know your mare, but it definitely worked for me.


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## fburton (31 December 2010)

Mahoganybay said:



			Any thoughts on whether it is a dominance issue
		
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Don't see why it would be, unless you've been playing dominance games with her (which doesn't sound like the case).

In the absence of further information I would favour the high jinx explanation.


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## kerilli (31 December 2010)

if the last time was when she was the last one out of the field, then i can totally understand it, you say it's not an issue "with not wanting the leave the herd' but in fact it's an issue with wanting to be with the herd, especially if she's the lead mare... she'd want to be one of the first to be brought in, ideally. most horses get a bit upset at being left till last, unless they're very calm.
it's difficult to advise without seeing what she's doing, but i'd lead her with a hard hat and gloves on, and a long lead, to make things safer, just in case she does it again.


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## Mahoganybay (31 December 2010)

kerilli said:



			if the last time was when she was the last one out of the field, then i can totally understand it, you say it's not an issue "with not wanting the leave the herd' but in fact it's an issue with wanting to be with the herd, especially if she's the lead mare... she'd want to be one of the first to be brought in, ideally. most horses get a bit upset at being left till last, unless they're very calm.
it's difficult to advise without seeing what she's doing, but i'd lead her with a hard hat and gloves on, and a long lead, to make things safer, just in case she does it again.
		
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Good point there Kerilli, i never thought of it like that, she will go into and be in the field on her own and is never stressed if left til last normally (i wouldn't leave her until last if that was the case) and after a pedal bone injury last year went in the hospital paddock on her own for 2 months (in sight & nose touch of other horses) and was as good as gold. 

When i am leading she trys and walks faster than i want to walk, i give a gentle tug on the lead rope turning her head towards me and this normally does the trick and she listens to me, on these two occasions i have done the same and she has carried on walking fast and not listened, so i gave her a voice command, again did not listen and up she went with a squeal with front legs waving.

Maybe its just the time of year and no ridden work in the last two weeks she is just feeling fresh.


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## flyingfeet (31 December 2010)

My new pony was very prone to rearing at the drop of a hat to escape what she was being asked, or generally pratting around 

My cure was to use the be nice halter, so I could use specific poll pressure and make it uncomfortable for her (basically a series of jerks until front feet back on the ground, then instant release and praise for coming back to me). No other halter works quite as well, and I hate chifney's as don't want to touch the mouth.

She now leads with just a rope around her neck, and has very good manners. It was obviously just something she had learned.


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## flyingfeet (31 December 2010)

Just to add, always wear hat and gloves when tackling this

And finally- I don't let mine walk ahead of me, always behind (non-BHS I know), I stop, they stop, as I'm the herd leader!


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## fburton (31 December 2010)

Jen_Cots said:



			And finally- I don't let mine walk ahead of me, always behind (non-BHS I know), I stop, they stop, as I'm the herd leader!
		
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Is it possible to be herd leader leading more at the shoulder, the BHS way?


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## flyingfeet (31 December 2010)

Yes once retrained, but I think if going through a difficult patch leading at the shoulder is not desirable as the minute they get past you, you are trying to control a 600kg animal without body language.


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## baymareb (31 December 2010)

May be high jinx and may be dominance but unacceptable imo either way.  My mare did the same thing occasionally and it ended up resulting in me getting a hoof in the face.  After that, it was very much a dominance thing - she'd learned she could get out of work by that behavior.

It's been a hard road coming back from it so I would really suggest not putting up with it.  With my mare, as soon as she gets bargy or pushy or tries to outwalk me, I stop her and back her up, fast and steady and with purpose until I say stop.  Then I ask her to walk on nicely.

I also walk her with a hat and a stick - if she so much as thinks of going up, she gets a crack to the chest and an immediate back up.  She has improved vastly in the month since the accident.

In the end (in my opinion) it doesn't matter if the cause of the behavior is high spirits or dominance - she is a big creature who can hurt you without trying and must have good manners on a lead.  Period.


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## fburton (31 December 2010)

Jen_Cots said:



			Yes once retrained, but I think if going through a difficult patch leading at the shoulder is not desirable as the minute they get past you, you are trying to control a 600kg animal without body language.
		
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I guess there's arguments for and against both positions. What do you think of the argument that if you have a pushy/dominant horse behind you, then they are driving rather than you leading?


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## kerilli (31 December 2010)

OP, that sounds to me as if she's objecting to your request to walk slower, so imho she needs putting back in her place...
With hat and gloves on, and ideally a controller halter or at least a wrap of rope around her nose if you're using a normal headcollar, i'd give a tug to slow her down, then elbow into chest to stop her, and use voice "NO" or similar if she's rude. If she stands, praise, maybe a treat, then walk on again.
fburton, I don't agree with that argument, if they're dominant imho they'll want to push past you and lead...
I am happy to have a horse walking behind or beside me, but never even slightly ahead...


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## Hanovarian Mare (31 December 2010)

Would agree with backing her up when she is starting to play up. When horses do that sort of thing, the easiest and most effective punishment is to ask them to go backwards, thus asking them to show submission towards you as you are the leader and therefore dominant. If she is not walking backwards but concentrating on other horses or trying to show off towards others, make her concentrate on you, she needs to take you seriously.
Would start introducing this exercise in everyday work.


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## fburton (31 December 2010)

kerilli said:



			fburton, I don't agree with that argument, if they're dominant imho they'll want to push past you and lead...
		
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Thanks, Kerilli. The reason I asked is that when dominant horses push subordinates out of the way, the dominant is basically driving and the subordinate is being driven.




			I am happy to have a horse walking behind or beside me, but never even slightly ahead...
		
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Me too, though for safety reasons.


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## Horsesnponysarelife (1 January 2011)

Mahoganybay said:



			My mare has on the last two occasions when leading out of the field reared in hand, she is led in a rope halter (and has been for about a year) and the last occasion she was the last one out of the field (so no issue with not wanting to leave the herd). 

On both occasions it seems to have been when i am asking her to slow down her walk, it appears to me to be a dominance issue and they are full on rears with waving front legs etc.

I have kept calm and and pulled her back down and then asked her to walk on nicely again, she does about 3 or 4 rears and then calmly walks on (at my speed).

All checks done on a 6 monthly basis i.e.  back/teeth/saddle etc and where all done in Nov.

Any thoughts on whether it is a dominance issue, she is a very marish mare. Have to add that she had not been ridden for 2 weeks due to whether but has had turnout and feed been altered to accomodate.

Edited to add... am hoping this does not happen in ridden work when i can eventually get back on board
		
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Get the best possible bond with her once you have that she sould trust you more.when you cach her in if she rears give her a long rope to let her have some freedom then without to much pressure try to get her to come back next to you if she does reward her with a vocal command or a pat. if she egnores you stand stock still and let her sort her self out.then continue to wait for her even if she steps only one closer reward her and continue.
if you have a secure place you could try lunging her to take the edge of her.


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## attheponies (1 January 2011)

Re the leading I understand that the boss mare leads the herd whereas a stallion chivvies and drives the herd from behind.  My chap will rear both to and/or from the field and I have tried allsorts, I usually use a chifney or be nice to turn out and a be nice to bring in (as he won't let me get a chifney on in the field).  I personally don't find the dually as effective but have had a NH trainer work with him and the technique of making him stop and also to step back when he is rude has been really effective. I don't carry a stick as this seemed to make him worse as if I smack him he will come back at me, I tried a carrot stick to give me "my space" but to be honest it just got in the way.


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## MerrySherryRider (1 January 2011)

Once had a problem bringing my three in at night. Usually very good to lead they became extremely difficult. Turned out it was the yard that made them spooky as the problem resolved itself as soon as I removed them. However, out of all the experienced helpers I had, the most effective person was a non horsey, old cattle farmer, who simply led the baby in ignoring any antics, but gave a swift tug and walked on as though nothing had happened without looking at her or altering his pace. Knowing you're the boss helps.


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## tweedette (1 January 2011)

Try putting her out first.


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## better half (1 January 2011)

I dont think it helps to think of your horse in terms of dominance and subordinates this is much better for the study of dog behaviour.  
 Horses live in herds and  co-operate with each other .  You would have to sit and watch them for a long time to catch them fighting if they have everything they need (friends, security, food and water).    In herds there is a leader but that leader will change depending on who is the best for the job at that particular time. This shows the immense respect they have for each other.     They know how to co-operate with each other and it is up to us to learn how to get them to co-operate with us.

Sensitive horses that are easily upset are often called dominate,  when they dont understand why they need to slow down or have not learnt to match the pace of the owner.   Pressure halters on a sensitive horse will cause it to rear especially the be-nice type with studs on the poll.  Horses when shown how to do something that does not hurt them will co-operate if you are clear about what you want them to do and they trust and respect you.


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## kerilli (1 January 2011)

fburton said:



			Thanks, Kerilli. The reason I asked is that when dominant horses push subordinates out of the way, the dominant is basically driving and the subordinate is being driven.
		
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Yes, and I won't be shoved out of the way by a horse... BUT a horse following another across a field is not being dominant, it's being subservient imho, it's following trustingly. I have a very meek mare who loves following right behind me like a dog, she's definitely not shoving me along.
It's all about body language etc obviously, theirs and ours.
One of the trickiest things with horses is learning to tell the difference between "can't" and "shan't" (and then react accordingly...) and that's when they're in front of you, it's even harder when their behaviour is being described on a forum.

i agree with better half's words too. also, i don't really think an individual horse's position in the hierarchy has any significant effect on how it should be treated, it still needs to be trained to be mannerly around people.


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## attheponies (1 January 2011)

Mmmm..agree with some of what Better Half says but sometimes, some horses just decide to be a complete g*t and speaking from experience my chap is a million times better behaved in the be nice.


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## Persephone (1 January 2011)

My mare does this when she is feeling fresh. Damned annoying!

She just goes up, maybe once or twice, then carries on forwards. TBH I try to ignore it as much as possible, I know it can be a bit hairy, especuially if it's a big horse, but I didn't want to go down the chifney route.

I put her in a be nice halter for a month or so after she first did it, but she is so sporadic  with it that it didn't really make much difference I don't think. 

She gets led  in a normal, well fitted headcollar with a 15' lead rope. If she goes up, I step away, but can still keep hold of the rope. She gets a verbal telling off as in "Oi!" in a growly voice and a sharp donwards tug on the rope IF SAFE.

If it's any consolation it has never transferred to her ridden work. 

It's just something that I am very aware of. Probably worth wearing a hat and gloves until OP sorts out?


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## Mahoganybay (1 January 2011)

Well, took her up to the Indoor School and she was a little star, we went with a friend and her trusty horse, loaded like a dream (she always does) and travelled fab (again always does). 

She has never been up to this particular Indoor School before and she was initially a little spooky and looky, i took the lunge line to take the 'edge' of her to begin with and then popped on and she was a star. 

I really do think the rearing in hand that she has done has been a 'freshness' and she needed to have some proper work done with her.

We have an outdoor school at my yard (which tbh is rubbish, freezes in winter and too deep in summer) and the lanes for the last 2 weeks have been like sheet ice so have been unable to hack out or get out the trailer.

If it is a combination of all of the above i am glad that she did not do it under saddle and i will see now how she is leading now that we have been out today and i am now able to start riding out again (now everything has thawed).

A massive thanks to everyone that has posted on this thread, i have read some of your experiences with interest and will be adopting a few in the future.

Once again, thanks.


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## fburton (1 January 2011)

kerilli said:



			Yes, and I won't be shoved out of the way by a horse...
		
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Me neither, regardless of whether they are dominant with other horses or not!




			BUT a horse following another across a field is not being dominant, it's being subservient imho, it's following trustingly. I have a very meek mare who loves following right behind me like a dog, she's definitely not shoving me along.
		
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Actually, I think dominance and leadership are rather different things for horses - and the qualities that make a horse dominant are different from those that make others want to follow. How else to explain why the horse that initiates movements in the herd and the others follow is often _not_ the most dominant? If a horse follows a dominant, it's _in spite of_ not _because of_ the other horse's dominance. Horses tend to follow others that are trustworthy - hence the leader is often an older (and hence experienced and knowledgeable) mare. They are repelled not attracted by pushiness and aggression. So I try to behave in ways that inspire trust - by being calm, confident, consistent - not aggressive or pushy.

(It's easy to see why the idea that dominance is the same as leadership is so attractive to us humans - because that's how our own society and organizations tend to be structured.)




			also, i don't really think an individual horse's position in the hierarchy has any significant effect on how it should be treated, it still needs to be trained to be mannerly around people.
		
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Here I agree with you 100%. The behaviour (good manners) should come first.


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## Mahoganybay (1 January 2011)

Persephone said:



			My mare does this when she is feeling fresh. Damned annoying!

She just goes up, maybe once or twice, then carries on forwards. TBH I try to ignore it as much as possible, I know it can be a bit hairy, especuially if it's a big horse, but I didn't want to go down the chifney route.

I put her in a be nice halter for a month or so after she first did it, but she is so sporadic  with it that it didn't really make much difference I don't think. 

She gets led  in a normal, well fitted headcollar with a 15' lead rope. If she goes up, I step away, but can still keep hold of the rope. She gets a verbal telling off as in "Oi!" in a growly voice and a sharp donwards tug on the rope IF SAFE.

If it's any consolation it has never transferred to her ridden work. 

It's just something that I am very aware of. Probably worth wearing a hat and gloves until OP sorts out?
		
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Thanks for that, i think that your mare and mine may be sisters lol. I have done exactly as you have done with yours i.e. stepping away, tug down & growly voice.

I will definitely not even attempt the Chifney route as they scare the bejesus out of me.


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## Mahoganybay (1 January 2011)

fburton said:



			Me neither, regardless of whether they are dominant with other horses or not!


Actually, I think dominance and leadership are rather different things for horses - and the qualities that make a horse dominant are different from those that make others want to follow. How else to explain why the horse that initiates movements in the herd and the others follow is often _not_ the most dominant? If a horse follows a dominant, it's _in spite of_ not _because of_ the other horse's dominance. Horses tend to follow others that are trustworthy - hence the leader is often an older (and hence experienced and knowledgeable) mare. They are repelled not attracted by pushiness and aggression. So I try to behave in ways that inspire trust - by being calm, confident, consistent - not aggressive or pushy.

(It's easy to see why the idea that dominance is the same as leadership is so attractive to us humans - because that's how our own society and organizations tend to be structured.)

Absolutely fascinating reading there, my mare appears very dominant in the field with the other mares and moves them around, all the mares (inc new ones that arrive) tend to know she is the boss, but when riding out in a group does not want to be the leader and will happily fall back and let some one else lead the ride. 

So based on that would you say she was a dominant mare or a leader??
		
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## fburton (1 January 2011)

Mahoganybay said:



			Absolutely fascinating reading there, my mare appears very dominant in the field with the other mares and moves them around, all the mares (inc new ones that arrive) tend to know she is the boss, but when riding out in a group does not want to be the leader and will happily fall back and let some one else lead the ride. 

So based on that would you say she was a dominant mare or a leader??
		
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From what you say, she is clearly dominant. Whether she is "leader" in the sense that others are willing to follow her isn't clear - she may simply prefer not to be the one in front of the ride!

However, I think "leadership" is a slightly misleading word to describe what happens amongst horses, and "followership" may be more accurate and true to what actually goes on. After all, a horse cannot _force_ another to follow; the choice of whether to follow or not always belongs with the other horse. A dominant horse can tell subordinates to "go away" or "get out of my way" with body language and threats of aggression (or actual agression if the threats are ignored); she cannot tell a subordinate to "come here"! So leadership can't be _imposed_ on others - instead, it has to be _earned_ in some way.

Hope this makes sense?


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## Mahoganybay (1 January 2011)

fburton said:



			From what you say, she is clearly dominant. Whether she is "leader" in the sense that others are willing to follow her isn't clear - she may simply prefer not to be the one in front of the ride!

However, I think "leadership" is a slightly misleading word to describe what happens amongst horses, and "followership" may be more accurate and true to what actually goes on. After all, a horse cannot _force_ another to follow; the choice of whether to follow or not always belongs with the other horse. A dominant horse can tell subordinates to "go away" or "get out of my way" with body language and threats of aggression (or actual agression if the threats are ignored); she cannot tell a subordinate to "come here"! So leadership can't be _imposed_ on others - instead, it has to be _earned_ in some way.

Hope this makes sense?
		
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I definitely think she is dominant rather than a leader as watching her in the herd she often tells the subordinates to 'get out of her way' with her body language and threat of aggression and will back the threat up if/when ignored.

What i find interesting is that she is so assertive in the herd yet is very nervous and spooky out on a ride, it has taken me nearly 3 years (give or take and including a year long stint on box rest) to get her hacking out without her having a heart attack just because a leaf blew across the lane.

I find that if she really is scared out riding she is far better being a 'follower' whether that be following me on foot or another horse..


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## fburton (1 January 2011)

Herd dynamics are fascinating, aren't they?!


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## better half (1 January 2011)

fburton said:



			From what you say, she is clearly dominant. Whether she is "leader" in the sense that others are willing to follow her isn't clear - she may simply prefer not to be the one in front of the ride!

However, I think "leadership" is a slightly misleading word to describe what happens amongst horses, and "followership" may be more accurate and true to what actually goes on. After all, a horse cannot _force_ another to follow; the choice of whether to follow or not always belongs with the other horse. A dominant horse can tell subordinates to "go away" or "get out of my way" with body language and threats of aggression (or actual agression if the threats are ignored); she cannot tell a subordinate to "come here"! So leadership can't be _imposed_ on others - instead, it has to be _earned_ in some way.

Hope this makes sense?
		
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I like your thoughts on 'Followership'  that's sort of how I see a herd.  I saw a study about lactating mares being dominate, but I think they just needed more water so they had the idea to get a drink first.  This meant the rest of the herd had to follow, as there is always saftey in numbers.  

I don't think the dominance thing is right.  It may be that the OP's mare is just displacing behaviour and being grumpy with the other horses as she still has issues of her own.


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## Mahoganybay (1 January 2011)

fburton said:



			Herd dynamics are fascinating, aren't they?! 

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Most definitely!


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## Mahoganybay (1 January 2011)

better half said:



			I like your thoughts on 'Followership'  that's sort of how I see a herd.  I saw a study about lactating mares being dominate, but I think they just needed more water so they had the idea to get a drink first.  This meant the rest of the herd had to follow, as there is always saftey in numbers.  

I don't think the dominance thing is right.  It may be that the OP's mare is just displacing behaviour and being grumpy with the other horses as she still has issues of her own.
		
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Yeah the issue being she did not want to walk at my pace lol


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## better half (1 January 2011)

I can now see why speeding up my walk so as to not upset a fresh young horse worked.   You can work on the pace thing when you have time and can control the situation a bit more.   You can build attention and respect, but don't loose it by getting in a fight you can't win.


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