# Holden Fold's New Coloured Stallion Spyder



## Smee (7 November 2010)

"16.1/2 German AES approved in Holland coloured stallion"

Does anyone have any more information about him?

Tried their website but it's under construction unfortunately. Was just wondering how he was bred and (dare I say it) what the 'German AES approved in Holland' bit actually meant? Can't seem to find any info on my 1st 'google' search.

(ducks...)


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## special design (7 November 2010)

Smee said:



			"16.1/2 German AES approved in Holland coloured stallion"

Does anyone have any more information about him?

Tried their website but it's under construction unfortunately. Was just wondering how he was bred and (dare I say it) what the 'German AES approved in Holland' bit actually meant? Can't seem to find any info on my 1st 'google' search.

(ducks...)
		
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He was called Sniper from what ive found,
Dont think he can be approved as he was only born in 2008 so he is probably licensed
This is a link to his pedigree and some foal pics http://www.eurofoals.com/foals_details.php?tar=paard&Paardid=200920 he is by Sanyo out of a Sambuco B mare.
Reesink used to do an online auction kind of thing where they matched the foal with the right home, dont think they have done it for a couple of years now though.
He looks very nice in the pics, full brother Samero GB was sold through the NRW Foal auction, he is a year older http://www.westfalenpferde.de/Fohlen2007.htm, he also went to the Westfalen grading in 2009 but didnt get Licensed.
Dont really know much else, only seen one pic of him on facebook, but he looks a good strong type, perhaps there will be more info on him when they update the site.


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## eventrider23 (7 November 2010)

Just looked on their FB page and he is named as Spyder HFD but no other info.


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## volatis (7 November 2010)

Be interesting if it is a Sanyo son, as Sanyo stands near here and having seen him at the stud and out competiting, he is a very nice horse. Not a superstar but one I would use


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## Smee (8 November 2010)

special design said:



			He was called Sniper from what ive found,
Dont think he can be approved as he was only born in 2008 so he is probably licensed
This is a link to his pedigree and some foal pics http://www.eurofoals.com/foals_details.php?tar=paard&Paardid=200920 he is by Sanyo out of a Sambuco B mare.
Reesink used to do an online auction kind of thing where they matched the foal with the right home, dont think they have done it for a couple of years now though.
He looks very nice in the pics, full brother Samero GB was sold through the NRW Foal auction, he is a year older http://www.westfalenpferde.de/Fohlen2007.htm, he also went to the Westfalen grading in 2009 but didnt get Licensed.
Dont really know much else, only seen one pic of him on facebook, but he looks a good strong type, perhaps there will be more info on him when they update the site.
		
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Your 'google skills' far exceed mine - I'm impressed! 
Thank you very much.


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## eventrider23 (10 November 2010)

Would be really interested in this stallion as love the breeding however but I do worry as at only 2.5 yrs old he is being advertised as being AES Approved....a status only awarded to stallions that have competed internationally or in international classes.  So it does raise the question for me of what his status actually is, as as I said his breeding genuinely ineterests me!


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## casparhauser (12 November 2010)

eventrider23 said:



			Would be really interested in this stallion as love the breeding however but I do worry as at only 2.5 yrs old he is being advertised as being AES Approved....a status only awarded to stallions that have competed internationally or in international classes.  So it does raise the question for me of what his status actually is, as as I said his breeding genuinely ineterests me!
		
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This gets weirder and weirder.  Your right its a worry ER especially as Holden Fold seem to have been waging a campaign against another stallion owner on FB apparently accusing them very publically of misrepresenting their stallions approved status - and then they seem to be doing exactly the same themselves.  The AES have no record of the colt and they say that he hasn't been presented for licensing.  Maybe someone from HFS could help clear up the confusion about the colts identity and studbook status as there are obviously people on here who might be interested in using him if they knew his current and previous registered name and who he was licensed with.


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## SAMgirl (12 November 2010)

Hi!
Can I ask exactly where you have seen him ADVERTISED?
I didn't think he was advertised anywhere yet?
He will be licensed with the AES not 'approved' - if you have seen that written anywhere I can only think that it will be on FB or similar - as I am sure it will have been written in more conversational-type English - definately not on an advert!
I do not think that you will find him actively advertised as 'AES Approved' anywhere!  I am sure they will be particularly careful as had the whole 'Future Illusion' debacle in mind!!
**
CH:  I don't think that you can seriously accuse this of being the same thing at all!!  He is not actively advertised as 'AES Approved' - I can assure you (as currently he is not advertised full stop!).  The problem arrises IMO because the word approved is a valid English word and also the descriptor of level of status with the AES.  The verb 'approve' is synonymous 'accept' which tbf if they had said AES accepted or accepted by the AES would be correct - his status (level of approval?) will be 'licensed'.  I believe the bone of contention Angela had with Future Illusion was not even the 'level of approval' but the fact he was not actually approved at all!  Let's not over analyze something that has been said in a social/conversational context - let us judge when we see how he is being actively advertised for breeding to the public (as FI)... then maybe you will be vindicated in your concerns?  We shall see!!
**
To answer the OP, the info will be laid out far more clearly when the website is back up but to explain that quote...
"16.1/2 German AES approved in Holland coloured stallion"
Size: 16.1/2
Breed:  Westfalian (German)
Studbook: AES Licensed (in Holland)
The link which Special Design (Reesink Eurofoals) has his full pedigree, but for ease of reference it is:
Sanyo x Sambuco B x Bukephalos
I hope this helps


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## eventrider23 (12 November 2010)

Ok - I did not want to get into this but I feel I have to now and have done my research before stating any of this - for starters, I do not see in any way why FI has been brought yet again into this conversation at all.  He was not mentioned in any way and as a competitor, is no competition for a stallion market such as this one's.  The whole FI debacle started because of a language barrier as everything written by the ZfDp in previous times was in German...including the covering certificates.  Once a full translation was given, the word Approved was removed from the FSH website....incidentally the ONLY place where that term was used seeing as in all his advertising, he was listed as only graded with them...and the owner, on receiving a translation, corrected her genuine mistake.  Once again I can only see this is as a slanderous attempt at trying to defame another stallion owner....which is IMO poor practice as a good marketing ploy should never be to defame a competitor.  Farless, this is a stallion that is hardly able to stand up for themselves and defend him as those who decry him as false, etc will only then state that she is using her status on the NED to promote him...something which she has never done!

The fact is, FI is in no way any competition for stallions at HFD....he is an eventing/showing stallion....they breed dressage horses......so why they should jump onto this defamatory and libellous bandwagon is beyond me.  I say this because not only was it done in the form of slanderising him on the H&C blog and elsewhere, but HFD's own NEWSLETTER which is sent out to their breeders and others publically and in print continues this campaign against him, with much of the newsletter devoted to slating him as well as their Facebook Stud page...which again brings up this issue.  Not only is this wrong, but if the owner should so wish to pursue it, it is downright libellous!  At the end of the day the stallion, as with so many others in this country was graded into ZfDp Book II due to his lack of a ridden performance record.....a fact brought about by the fact that he combined heavy covering duties with a career and his owner, as I would, loves her horse, and does not wish to flog him into the ground in his first few years just to prove something to those that cannot see what is in front of them.  No one was deceived...the Book II covering certs are the same as the Book I ones...farless the fact that BEFORE being graded with the ZfDp the stallion was still used widely when he was totally ungraded...and none of those breeders had a complaint about him.  Not to mention, as regards progeny, his eldest will be, I believe 4 next year, and for such a young stallion, progeny wise he has more than proven himself with multiple First Premium and Elite Premium Futurity scored youngstock as well as show ring champions.  What more could be asked of a stallion of his age?  By my reckoning..nothing...he has done all he can do.  Some owners choose to concentrate on a stallions performance before progeny (see Wish Upon a Star, Totilas and so on) whilst others combine the 2 or try to produce some progeny first and foremost....as many people say, the proof is in the pudding and his owner believed in him enough to use him on her own mares enough so that he could prove himself as a sire......look at stallions standing in Ireland....the majority of the greatest event horses in the world never competed whatsoever...yet proven and great sires they are...why can people not just leave this subject alone and allow this owner to get on with it....then if the stallion proves to be a great progenitor...fantastic....if not...well we will soon find out.

As regards the whole grading issue,  I think the whole subject is moot as since his ZfDp approval he has been presented to the AES and awarded full licensing status.....a level HIGHER than that of the ZfDp....so what is there to argue?  It is also goes as a fact that if FI goes on to compete at International level (in eventing that would be 1* or above) or his progeny does then he is eligible for FULL Approval with the AES.  However, this point is irrelevant as the vast majority of stallions graded with them only achieve Licensed status anyway.

Now...back to the OP.  This stallion IS advertised.  He is advertised on the stud's FB page as well as Brian Crane's facebook page...all of which are advertising mediums recognised worldwide.  You only have to look at all the cases worldwide whereby people have slanderised others on facebook and then been prosecuted...so you cannot say that FB is not a public medium.  You might say that Brian Crane's profile page is private, however when his wall is open to the public and thus the world to see, then this is not a fact.  Plus, his page is NOT a private page when he uses it to promote his stallions, which essentially encompasses his entire wall.  In addition, the stallion was promoted in the HFD newsletter that I previously mentioned, in which it was again stated that he was fully AES Approved.  Now if this is not the misrepresentation then I do not know what is....especially as when questioned, the AES hold NO record of him ever having been presented to them farless being recognised by them in any way. (Note this is information coming from the AES itself just yesterday).  And this is under both the name Spyder HFD as they call him or under his original name of Snyper as Volatis pointed out above.  In addition there is also no record as they claim of him achieving a foal performance record.....that was his older full brother...not him....or if it is him, then there is no record that can be found for him.

SAMgirl - if you are on here as the HFD spokesperson as you seem to be, then please can you clarify these points for me as well as, if possible, post on here a copy of his AES grading certificate if he is in fact graded.  As I have said before, I LIKE this stallion and his breeding is incredibly interesting to me and as a stallion I would be very interested in him.....IF he were represented honestly.  However, this is not the case.  In the case of FI and the ZfDp, the Approval status term was brought about by a language barrier...there is no such barrier with the AES and the levels are clearly stated in plain english and yet as I have just once again looked, this stallion is stated as being FULLY AES APPROVED.

The following are quotes taken directly off of the PUBLIC page advertising this stallion in which he was being discussed and IMO misrepresented to potential breeders:




			Thank Debbie we like him he was a prolific winner in germany as a foal then imported to Holland after selling for a high premium in the elite foal auction, so far so good he is Sanyo "Sandro"lines on the father line & of course Samber on th...e mother line it is our first coloured breeding stallion it was quite a task finding one with blood we like modern & then approved with a stud book recognised out side the uk to international buyers,now we have to wait & see what his of spring are like mean while he goes under saddle
		
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and also




			Yes the same Sanyo lines) he will be available for stud 20111,we are just doing the marketing for him (*honest true marketing you know what i mean he is what we say he is true hieght approved his achevements as a foal were on his own merits no help from the inside*,we will use him on our Goshka Ringo mare & our lovely but very old fasioned Ulster Mare,he will go under saddle & build a ridden CV to
		
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This quote is taken from this PUBLIC page: http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/...2&set=a.174020112611766.47301.100000113340062 and if the link does not work, one only has to look up Brian Crane on facebook to see his wall and thus see his advertising of the stallion...not to mention to see the advertising of him on their public newsletter.

I have highlighted the section about HONEST and TRUE marketing due to the fact that I feel this is a bit like the pot calling the kettle black as this is coming from the same stud that stated that another stallion owner was lying to her owners and misrepresenting her stallion....something which she didn't do and yes, having done my research before stating this, I know that none of the breeders of that stallion's foals have complained and yet HFD are here stating that they are being honest and true with their AES Fully Approved stallion who is a)only 2.5 yrs old and thus only eligible to ever be licensed at best and b) is not even recognised by the studbook it states has graded him?  Come on....have some consisitency here!

I have no axe to grind with anyone here in the sense that I have NEVER used Future Illusion and nor have I ever used any of the HFD stallions and thus  have no need or benefit in promoting them or decrying any of them.  My problem here is HONESTY.  This stallion Spyder (whom I have already said I like) may well be worth his salt as a stallion...that remains to be proven and I hope will...but why lie about approval status?  People had a go about FI when his status was not intentionally lied about...it was caused by a language barrier....which once confirmed, was rectified in the one and only place it was stated.  Why should it thus be any different here for HFD where they have, maybe unintentionally, lied about his grading status?


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## eventrider23 (12 November 2010)

As I have said and I reiterate, I LIKE this stallion and he is one I would be definitely interested in using on a mare in the future, same as i was interested in using his sire.  I do not in any way have an axe to grind nor wish to defame him and resisted participating in the H&CTV Blog no matter how nasty it got towards FI and his owner however, I will not stand by and watch that same stud that has publically decried him on there, in their newsletter as well as on their publid stud facebook page where they slanderised not only the stallion but his owner and her position with the NED ( http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/pages/Darwen-United-Kingdom/Holden-Fold-Stud-Ltd/174205600618 ) then go on to publically state untruths about a stallion of their own.....

Why should we have these slanging matches in the first place?  FI is in no way competition to any of the HFD stallions...not to mention the fact that as I have already said, what kind of marketing tool is it to publically slate another person's stallion.  Fair enough, you are free to say things in private of your opinions, but if there is to be any professionalism in the industry why are owners trying to defame others stallions that they may or may not see as competition.  In this case the person I feel most sorry for is the owner of FI, who is backed into a corner by these people.  Any 'normal' stallion owner would be able to stand up and defend their stallion and yet in her case, because of her position with the NED, if she were seen to do so and quite rightly as she should in the case of any stallion owner, she would be publically decried as exploiting her position and so instead she must stand mute whilst people slanderise her stallion whilst at the same time stating false facts about their own stallion.

So please 1) can people just drop the whole FI subject - it is getting boring and tedious and the fact is the stallion is also now fully licensed with the AES...incidentally the 4th best studbook in the world eventing rankings in 2010; 2) please can we clarify exactly WHAT, if any grading status Spyder/Sniper has as the AES themselves yesterday said he is in no way registered farless graded with them and finally 3) can we stop slanderising stallions of people we see as competition.  At the end of the day, any stallion worth his salt will, if allowed, go on to prove his worth as a sire through his progeny so why do we need to have these constant debates and not just allow people to make their own judgements on who they wish to use and see where we get at the end of it?


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## eventrider23 (12 November 2010)

Anyone who does not believe the above statements were made by HFD feel free to PM me where I can send you a copy of the newsletter released by them in which they publically defame Future Illusion as well as advertise their coloured stallion as AES Approved.


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## Fahrenheit (12 November 2010)

Slight change of topic, does anyone know if he has been DNA tested to see if he is homozygous or hetrozygous for the tobiano gene please?

*backs out the thread quietly*


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## Lgd (12 November 2010)

I suspect the lack of info from the AES lists here is because a. there is an arm of the AES based in Holland which approve/license separately from the UK book and b. they are not terribly good at keeping the website up to date.


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## eventrider23 (12 November 2010)

Yes Lgd I completely see what you are saying with the crossover, etc, however their database of registered stallions would remain the same and if a horse is even overstamped with that society it should appear on the database, farless graded.   In actual fact, whilst in previous times the AES website has been dire, they have recently performed a complete upgrade and have even already listed all the stallions graded/not graded on Tuesday.  Also, the information gleaned from them was not taken from the website but the head of the UK branch of the AES itself.


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## Ciss (12 November 2010)

eventrider23 said:



			Yes Lgd I completely see what you are saying with the crossover, etc, however their database of registered stallions would remain the same and if a horse is even overstamped with that society it should appear on the database, farless graded.   In actual fact, whilst in previous times the AES website has been dire, they have recently performed a complete upgrade and have even already listed all the stallions graded/not graded on Tuesday.  Also, the information gleaned from them was not taken from the website but the head of the UK branch of the AES itself.
		
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I would still view it with a little scepticism though as Zubin R (for example) was inspected and Licenced  by the AES in Germany (Dutch inspectors travelled to Germany to do it) and only when Henk was shown the actual paperwork (from his own studbook and inspectors!) that proved that this had happened did he acknowledge the stallions's true status as an AES Licenced stallion <sigh>.

I certainly do not condone *any* of the mud slinging that has gone on relating to Angela's unfortunate blog anmd related isues but the more one gets into the murky world of stallion approval and promotion the more one realises that Alice Through The Looking Glass has nothing on this.

Over the years I have therefore developed a maxim for this which is 'Never believe what any stallion owner says about their own or anyone else's stallion unless there is independent studbook / competition records to support it -- and view even these with great care and a major pinch of salt unless the source is absolutely impeccable.' This usually prevents me getting caught out but even then some surprises still jump up and shock me!


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## eventrider23 (12 November 2010)

I totally agree with you Ciss with regards the cross over with the different bands of the AES and also with regards to this IMO pathetic mudslinging match that has happened.  However and you yourself must admit, that stating the stallion is fully AES Approved when this is an impossible feat by the AES' own rulings for a stallion of his age along with their statements of only stating honest information does go against the grain when you consider what mudslinging went on by HFD in that blog and continued on their FB page as regards another stallion and their owner....a stallion who incidentally IS licensed with 2 different studbooks.


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## SAMgirl (13 November 2010)

HorseGroupie:  I don't know if he is tested Homozygous will try and find out for you!
**
Hi Eventrider23, 
I am not a 'spokesperson for HFD' I am a spokesperson for myself.  I do the website and leaflets (not newsletter I hasten to add) for HFD that is why I was concerned that he had been advertised as 'AES Approved' because I know for a fact, that I would NOT have written this anywhere.  I have breeding stallions myself (one of whom is AES Licensed also) and am SO very careful that any info that I publish is correct and try my upmost to structure the info in a way that cannot be accused of being misleading either (as this REALLY annoys me - more than just blatant lying!).
FI has not been brought into this particular thread on any significant scale - only really by you!  All I know about the whole affair is from what I have read or heard myself - if you have 'done your research' as you say on the whole affair then you probably know far more about it than I do!!  TBH I don't really have any interest in knowing about it - I have better things to do.  It is my personal opinion that people (particularly non dressage specific but that is just MO) will use a stallion because they like him and as long as he is graded/licensed/approved with some (any!) studbook that is fine!
  Casparhauser (the post I replied to initially) was the first person to touch upon it (stirring??) but I replied stating that the whole FI incident was a 'debacle' - which I think it was!!  I am sure his owner does too!!  I also stand by the fact that I don't think it is exactly the same - BUT I do agree with you that if Angela wants to take issue with it, then she can't really afford to make mistakes like that!  I have not seen the newsletter - but I have no reason to disbelieve what you say... If you could PM me a copy that would be great... If it is as you say (which I am sure it will be) then I will suggest to Angela myself that she issues a retraction/correction and apology in the next one!  If they do it or not it is up to them - I would also suggest to you that you drop them a line and point it out too (email or phone whatever) 
The reason I still do not think it is the same is because my understanding (feel free to correct me) is that whether an AES stallion is licensed or approved the paperwork is the same - full pink papers?  It would be the same scenario if the difference in status meant that the stallions progeny could only achieve Auxiliary or Foundation studbook papers and people were under the impression they could get Full Pink Papered foals.  That is just MO!!  The fact that he is now AES Licensed is surely a pleasing outcome for all concerned!!  I agree with you that I believe the AES more prolific than the ZfDp anyway 
With regard to his AES registration status, Ciss is on the money.  Our Gribaldi stallion is fully Licensed with the AES - he was licensed in Holland.  He is not yet on their website and it took Henk about 3 days to phone me back to acknowledge he existed!!


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## magic104 (13 November 2010)

eventrider23 said:



			Would be really interested in this stallion as love the breeding however but I do worry as at only 2.5 yrs old he is being advertised as being AES Approved....a status only awarded to stallions that have competed internationally or in international classes.  So it does raise the question for me of what his status actually is, as as I said his breeding genuinely ineterests me!
		
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But only last week 2.5yos were going forward, sure the first 3 were not 3 until 2011.  Easy enough to check as links went on showing DOB


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## eventrider23 (13 November 2010)

SAMgirl - I hope you do not think I was aiming any offense at you personally and no, indeed the website does not state anything whatsoever about the stallion and I totally appreciate what you say about stating truths and untruths.  If he is indeed AES Licensed that is of course fabulous and as I said already...I like him and have no axe to bear.  My point of contention is that they have berated one owner for one thing and done the same thing themselves.

I have the newsletter but cannot send it to you through PM so if you could PM me your email address I will gladly forward it to you.  I have to say, if I were those concerned I would be very very concerned about legal action being taken due to the slanderous nature of the majority of the newsletter and then of course at the end of it is the advertisement for their AES Approved stallion Spyder....plus as I said he is stated as such on Brian's FB page advertising him as Fully Approved....this is my point of contention as I really and honestly have no problem with the stallion (gosh I love coloureds and have an SS foal as we all know myself this year and in a few years would be looking for a suitable husband for her!) not to mention the fact that they stand some of the most proven dressage stallions in the UK in Mooiman, etc and so all I am pointing out in my post is that if they want to berate stallion owners for things then they themselves MUST surely make sure that everything they say about their own is entirely factually correct as I am sure you must agree.

So as I said, if you PM me your email address i will forward you that newsletter asap.


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## magic104 (13 November 2010)

1) 7 May 2008 lics - 2) 10 Apr 2008 Reg - 3) 7 Apr 2008 ungraded - 4) 4 Mar 2008 Lics


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## SAMgirl (13 November 2010)

Thanks eventrider!!  I will PM you now! 
As I said in my last post you make a very valid point and I do agree with your sentiments too!  I do however think there is a difference in the scenarios (as above), but your point of view is still very valid!


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## eventrider23 (13 November 2010)

Have PM'd you back SAMgirl.  As I said before, I hold no beef at all with either party and have had no business dealings with either....just think professionalism is needed on all sides.


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## susan@knoxemail.com (15 November 2012)

Do you happen to know where Spyder is today?


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## dingle12 (15 November 2012)

Had a quick look think he is still at the above stud they have pics from dressage the other day.


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## susan@knoxemail.com (15 November 2012)

Do you know if Spyder himself is for sale?


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## dingle12 (15 November 2012)

No idea ask them on Facebook


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## Clodagh (15 November 2012)

As someone completely outside the breeding scene may I say how sad it is that breeders lie and slag each other off. Does nothing for the industry as a whole or perception from the one mare breeder, perhaps the professionals don't mind/can see past it.


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## Maesfen (15 November 2012)

You have to wonder why they are so jealous of FI otherwise just what is their point because as Clodagh says, it only makes them look small and petty; not exactly people you would want to deal with when trust is so important?


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## Lgd (15 November 2012)

I think you will find that the FI palaver was all sorted quite some time ago - this is a very old post! 

I can verify that Spyder is licensed with the AES - he is Spyder GB on their records. 

I have a cracking colt foal by him that scored well at the Futurity and foalie is AES registered/passported.

The AES website still didn't have him on this year and I had to chase AES for Spyder's reg number when I sorted the foal registration out.


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