# Is toe-first landing always a sign of pain?



## dollyanna (5 January 2014)

As title really. One of my youngsters has always landed toe-first since the day I first saw her at about 4 months. She had a period of thrush but now has superb feet but still toe-first landing. Can toe-first ever just be the way they walk or is it always a sign of dysfunction somewhere?


----------



## Pale Rider (5 January 2014)

Usually, yes, but we are talking horses, so it may just be her way of going.


----------



## dollyanna (5 January 2014)

So can I stop worrying about it and just see what happens then?! I am starting to obsess about it but I really don't know what else can be done :-/


----------



## ILuvCowparsely (6 January 2014)

dollyanna said:



			As title really. One of my youngsters has always landed toe-first since the day I first saw her at about 4 months. She had a period of thrush but now has superb feet but still toe-first landing. Can toe-first ever just be the way they walk or is it always a sign of dysfunction somewhere?
		
Click to expand...

some horses do this naturally its called daisy cutting.  Some grow out of it as the mature and become balanced in training and start engaging their movement others carry on,  and they do it mainly when tired or when mooching round the field.  If this becomes detrimental and the horse is damaging the toes, I would try natural balancing.

Speak to your vet and farrier its easier for them as they see the horse not us to determine the reason.

MY mare did no harm done but you could see her knock the daisy heads off in the summer.  Def get vets advice could be a really simple fix, do it now while horse is young.

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?300960-Daisy-cutting
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?375733-Daisy-Cutting
http://www.horsegroomingsupplies.com/horse-forums/daisy-cutter-movements-511978.html


----------



## amandap (6 January 2014)

dollyanna said:



			As title really. One of my youngsters has always landed toe-first since the day I first saw her at about 4 months. She had a period of thrush but now has superb feet but still toe-first landing. Can toe-first ever just be the way they walk or is it always a sign of dysfunction somewhere?
		
Click to expand...

Horses do land toe first going uphill, extreme collected work etc. but if they don't land heel first on flat level or soft surfaces in my understanding it means they are protecting the back of the hoof. Thrush and weak/underdeveloped structure of frog digital cushion etc. are common causes. Body issues, including saddle fit, that shorten stride can lead to persistent toe first as well.

The tendons and ligaments are set up to work efficiently with heel first landing, persistent toe first causes strains and stresses over time. Persistent toe first causes more concussion as the back of the hoof is the main shock absorbing area.

Working on softer areas, smooth tarmac or using boots and pads to encourage heel first and therefore build up/strengthen caudal hoof structure should help.


----------



## dollyanna (6 January 2014)

Thanks for the replies. I think I will try and get a video, from memory and my understanding of daisy cutting I wouldn't have said that's what she does, but the only way to be sure would be to video it. Might take a well before I can get a cameraman though.

Amandap, she is 2 and not in work, she is fell bred and the longest time she has been stabled is 4 weeks while she was halter broken, other than that she has been living out except for maybe 4 nights in 2 years. She has done it from day one (or certainly at about 3.5 months when I first saw her in a large field). What I will say is that she did have very twisty front feet, the frog was at quite an angle, but they are almost perfect now and have been for most of the past year. Could it just be a case of time, waiting for her to grow and correct it herself? They get taken for in-hand hacks on the roads from time to time but other than that are just doing their own thing on a hilly field.


----------



## amandap (6 January 2014)

dollyanna said:



			Amandap, she is 2 and not in work, she is fell bred and the longest time she has been stabled is 4 weeks while she was halter broken, other than that she has been living out except for maybe 4 nights in 2 years. She has done it from day one (or certainly at about 3.5 months when I first saw her in a large field). What I will say is that she did have very twisty front feet, the frog was at quite an angle, but they are almost perfect now and have been for most of the past year. Could it just be a case of time, waiting for her to grow and correct it herself? They get taken for in-hand hacks on the roads from time to time but other than that are just doing their own thing on a hilly field.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry, I got carried away with a general reply. The video and also photos are a good idea.

The past thrush has made me wonder about mineral status and general health of the frogs and other tissues. If the video confirms toe first I would also look at a good balancer or even contact Sarah at Forage plus for advice. That option may not be cheap but mineral deficiencies can lead to compromised tissue health. Just a thought.


----------



## dollyanna (6 January 2014)

Thanks. The thrush I think was more to do with being stabled 24/7 for a few weeks while they were being halter broken (semi-feral), not mucked out but just had straw added but seeing as there were 2 of them in the stable it obviously wasn't as clean as it would have been with handled foals. She got it because her frogs were really deep, still are to some extent but now very clean and tidy and not smelly at all even with all this wet. I'll get video asap, what photos would be useful? Won't be in a hurry due to weather, but will do my best when it becomes possible.


----------



## Meowy Catkin (6 January 2014)

My understanding of 'daisy cutting' was that it was more to do with the horse not having much knee action and they often flick their toes at full extension - which would actually cause heel first landing.

On the flat, horses should land heel first, although some argue that shod horses should land flat as that apparently is less concussive for a shod hoof.  

I would second making sure that there is no thrush or heel pain, as the ground is so wet at the moment. Daily stimulation on hard surfaces for a few minutes might help too.


----------



## MiniMilton (6 January 2014)

Faracat said:



			My understanding of 'daisy cutting' was that it was more to do with the horse not having much knee action and they often flick their toes at full extension - which would actually cause heel first landing.
		
Click to expand...

Yes I thought daisy cutting was a limitation in the shoulder or back not allowing the horse to extend its leg fully, so the forward energy goes to the foot, flicking it out


----------



## amandap (6 January 2014)

dollyanna said:



			She got it because her frogs were really deep, still are to some extent but now very clean and tidy and not smelly at all even with all this wet. I'll get video asap, what photos would be useful? Won't be in a hurry due to weather, but will do my best when it becomes possible.
		
Click to expand...

http://www.all-natural-horse-care.com/good-hoof-photos.html

ps. Have a look here and on the unhealthy page and pin ups.
http://www.progressivehorse.co.uk/html/healthy_hooves.html


----------



## dollyanna (6 January 2014)

Ok so you just want normal good hoof photos, I'll give it a go, maybe after they are next trimmed so that they are clean! Just need to remember the camera...


----------



## Exploding Chestnuts (7 January 2014)

Did your farrier not comment, it is normally vital to correct faults at an early stage.


----------



## dollyanna (7 January 2014)

Not a lot, initially he just said she would grow out of it, then a year later said it was unlikely to grow out! He also was totally unhelpful in terms of discussing the thrush etc, every time I asked his opinion his reply was phrased in such a way as to agree with whatever I thought on the matter. He is no longer my farrier, after the last time when I was trying to genuinely ask his advice and got really nothing useful.


----------



## cptrayes (7 January 2014)

Are you certain that she is toe first? It can be difficult to really see, especially in a small foot, unless you watch slow motion video.


I agree, daisy cutting is not toe first, just a low foot flight.


----------



## dollyanna (7 January 2014)

Almost positive, it you see the toe land then the heel, it isn't subtle. I have been watching for some time now (since reading so much on here) but until the thrush had definitely all cleared up I thought it must be that. 

Trying to remember what was said at last trim, I *think* her front feet still need to balance a bit side to side and possibly she doesn't have enough frog (last person who did them before this trimmer hacked her frogs badly), but it is the fact she has always done it regardless of thrush/trimmer/farrier/anything else I can think of. Maybe it is just a case of time, waiting for her feet to finish growing out the deformity they were born with? I wish I had taken photos of them when she was 5 months, you would never believe the twist if you saw them now. The frogs were more horizontal across the foot than they were vertical!


----------



## cptrayes (7 January 2014)

dollyanna said:



			Almost positive, it you see the toe land then the heel, it isn't subtle. I have been watching for some time now (since reading so much on here) but until the thrush had definitely all cleared up I thought it must be that. 

Trying to remember what was said at last trim, I *think* her front feet still need to balance a bit side to side and possibly she doesn't have enough frog (last person who did them before this trimmer hacked her frogs badly), but it is the fact she has always done it regardless of thrush/trimmer/farrier/anything else I can think of. Maybe it is just a case of time, waiting for her feet to finish growing out the deformity they were born with? I wish I had taken photos of them when she was 5 months, you would never believe the twist if you saw them now. The frogs were more horizontal across the foot than they were vertical!
		
Click to expand...

Mmmmm, that might have complicated things. Do you think it's possible that she has contracted tensions and that it is actually impossible for her to extend her toe?

Can you pull her foreleg out with the toe pointed forward? 

Some video would be really interesting.


----------



## dollyanna (7 January 2014)

Like the stretch you do after doing up the girth? Never done it, had no need, but can try. But she has leaned back with her leg up if she panics for some reason when you are holding her foot, like a cat stretch but with the foot up, would that be almost the same? Trying to think of the mechanics of it.

What would be the most useful video? I don't have many opportunities to get filmed so want to make sure I get the right thing.


----------



## dollyanna (7 January 2014)

(PS I really appreciate all the thoughts on this, it has bothered me for some time but not been brave enough to ask. I will grill my trimmer next time she is here as well, but I like to have as many ideas as I can, no one person has all the answers  )


----------



## cptrayes (8 January 2014)

Flat concrete, from the side, camera down in the dirt.


Have a look at rockleyfarm.blogspot.com for example.

You are right to be concerned. There was an experiment done by Rooney on cadaver legs where he showed conclusively that a toe first landing causes damage to the deep digital flexor tendon in the foot.

Yes, the girth stretch,  only do it by holding up the point of her toe and see how physically capable she is of stretching the tendons that would allow her to  bring the heel down first. Just worth ruling out in such a young horse who started with leg problems, I think.


----------



## Meowy Catkin (8 January 2014)

MiniBlitzen said:



			Yes I thought daisy cutting was a limitation in the shoulder or back not allowing the horse to extend its leg fully, so the forward energy goes to the foot, flicking it out
		
Click to expand...

Sorry - just spotted this. 

I've never heard that it was anything to do with physical problems. If you think of how Welsh D's - for example- really bend at the knee and lift their knees high, that is their natural movement and it is the opposite of Daisy cutting. DC'ers naturally don't bend and lift the knees to that degree, so they have a much lower movement. The ones I have seen stretch forward through the shoulder very nicely.

DA - I agree with CPT. If you look at the Rockley blog there are some very good slowed down videos which show both toe first and heel first landing (often the same horse pre and post rehab) which will show you what to look for and how to take a good video of your horse.


----------



## amandap (8 January 2014)

Have a read here dollyanna. http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.ie/2011/10/comparing-heel-first-and-toe-first.html


----------



## dollyanna (8 January 2014)

Thanks, that's really interesting. From my viewpoint when I walk next to her she is definitely toe first but maybe not as bad as those photos, more subtle. I will get video as soon as I can but won't be for a couple of weeks probably.


----------



## WetandMuddy (8 January 2014)

Mine used to be toe first.  It took ages to figure out.  In the end his feet were x-rayed and he has low palmar and plantar angle.  He now wears raised heels under his shoes, which has virtually cured it.  If he is due the farrier and his toes are a little long (5 weeks), then he can start going toe first again, occasionally, on one front foot.  I can hear it clearly when walking down the road.


----------



## cptrayes (8 January 2014)

WetandMuddy said:



			Mine used to be toe first.  It took ages to figure out.  In the end his feet were x-rayed and he has low palmar and plantar angle.  He now wears raised heels under his shoes, which has virtually cured it.  If he is due the farrier and his toes are a little long (5 weeks), then he can start going toe first again, occasionally, on one front foot.  I can hear it clearly when walking down the road.
		
Click to expand...


I am really sorry but your wedged shoes have not cured your horse's negative coffin bone angle at all, they have stuck a plaster over the problem.  The biomechanics of the situation is that your horse is now as toe first as ever, or even more so, you just can't see it as easily.

Many farriers are very much against wedge shoes because of the pressure they put on the heels.

The answer is not wedges, it is to get the heels into work so that they build up their own internal height.

Of course I have no idea whether this was possible with your horse, but it usually is, and for me wedges would be beyond a last resort. I have dealt with at least three horses with negative coffin bone angle, one of which required back surgery to resolve it totally.


----------



## dollyanna (9 January 2014)

Ok, while I am biding time to be able to get photos and video, if she is toe-first landing (and after watching her in the field today I am pretty certain  ) what is to be done? Obviously part of that answer will be dependent on what her feet are doing, but if you assumed her feet are good (for the sake of discussion) what else could cause it? As she is a youngster could it be as a friend suggested today, just that she is still finding her movement and balance, still built very much downhill and quite narrow based, so as she matures it might resolve?

I had a go at the foreleg stretch, not ideal as the ground was slippy but she was very reluctant to straighten her leg if I held the toes. But this has made me think, she has always been more of a "muscle bound" type pony than free and easy - she had lovely movement as a foal but she is very different to my other one, much tighter.

I'm just looking for things I can research and understand better really, I have read a lot of stuff but there is always space for more.


----------



## WetandMuddy (9 January 2014)

cptrayes - unfortunately, or fortunately - depending on how you look at it - mine has beautiful feet (on the outside).  They are a lovely shape, very strong, beautiful heels, grows a good amount of hoof each month, etc. etc.   This is one of the reasons it took so long to find the problem.  Nobody looking at his feet would think there was a problem - and as you said he showed symptoms in his hind legs and over his back.

He has only had the heels on for about four months but the difference in his behaviour is fabulous.  He can now hack out safely!!!   Good news for me and he is so much more relaxed.  So they are making a huge difference.

Vet is convinced his problem is congenital (conformation) and he will be re x-rayed after 6 months to see if there is any improvement.  At this stage, this is all we think of.

You are correct - farrier hates the heels.


----------



## cptrayes (9 January 2014)

WetandMuddy said:



			cptrayes - unfortunately, or fortunately - depending on how you look at it - mine has beautiful feet (on the outside).  They are a lovely shape, very strong, beautiful heels, grows a good amount of hoof each month, etc. etc.   This is one of the reasons it took so long to find the problem.  Nobody looking at his feet would think there was a problem - and as you said he showed symptoms in his hind legs and over his back.

He has only had the heels on for about four months but the difference in his behaviour is fabulous.  He can now hack out safely!!!   Good news for me and he is so much more relaxed.  So they are making a huge difference.

Vet is convinced his problem is congenital (conformation) and he will be re x-rayed after 6 months to see if there is any improvement.  At this stage, this is all we think of.

You are correct - farrier hates the heels.
		
Click to expand...

Great response to a post you could easily have taken badly. Thank you


----------



## cptrayes (9 January 2014)

dollyanna said:



			Ok, while I am biding time to be able to get photos and video, if she is toe-first landing (and after watching her in the field today I am pretty certain  ) what is to be done? Obviously part of that answer will be dependent on what her feet are doing, but if you assumed her feet are good (for the sake of discussion) what else could cause it? As she is a youngster could it be as a friend suggested today, just that she is still finding her movement and balance, still built very much downhill and quite narrow based, so as she matures it might resolve?

I had a go at the foreleg stretch, not ideal as the ground was slippy but she was very reluctant to straighten her leg if I held the toes. But this has made me think, she has always been more of a "muscle bound" type pony than free and easy - she had lovely movement as a foal but she is very different to my other one, much tighter.

I'm just looking for things I can research and understand better really, I have read a lot of stuff but there is always space for more.
		
Click to expand...


I think I would be investigating what I could do to loosen her up, if she was mine. It is very interesting that she is 'tight'.  Take a look at DSLD, which comes in two versions, slack and tight, but I hope it doesn't scare you, it's an outside possibility.


----------



## dollyanna (9 January 2014)

Thanks, an interesting idea but currently she really doesn't fit. I doubt many people would notice her "tightness", it is just a side-effect of my profession that I notice very subtle differences in movement and tissue quality 
She is very sound, very happy to move, it is just more....controlled?...than my boy. But they are very different build so I'm not really comparing like with like. 

I do stretches with her when I can, not at the moment due to the weather, so I will work more on that. 

What are your thoughts on the idea that it may be related to her current conformation ie downhill?


----------



## cptrayes (9 January 2014)

dollyanna said:



			Thanks, an interesting idea but currently she really doesn't fit. I doubt many people would notice her "tightness", it is just a side-effect of my profession that I notice very subtle differences in movement and tissue quality 
She is very sound, very happy to move, it is just more....controlled?...than my boy. But they are very different build so I'm not really comparing like with like. 

I do stretches with her when I can, not at the moment due to the weather, so I will work more on that. 

What are your thoughts on the idea that it may be related to her current conformation ie downhill?
		
Click to expand...



I think if you have ruled out the obvious, thrush, and do some stretching, then I would certainly wait for her spring growth spurt to even her up a bit before I would panic about it. I have only ever had one really young horse and that was before I looked for heel first landings, so I've no idea how unusual your filly is, really.


----------



## dollyanna (10 January 2014)

Ah, ok  I have been waiting for the spring growth to even her up since the day I got her, I'm sure she'll even out eventually! I'll get photos and video, speak to my trimmer about her feet and do stretches, and then just wait and watch. Until then, thank you again, I really appreciate bouncing ideas around, just didn't want to be missing something if I could change it.


----------



## cptrayes (10 January 2014)

dollyanna said:



			Ah, ok  I have been waiting for the spring growth to even her up since the day I got her, I'm sure she'll even out eventually! I'll get photos and video, speak to my trimmer about her feet and do stretches, and then just wait and watch. Until then, thank you again, I really appreciate bouncing ideas around, just didn't want to be missing something if I could change it.
		
Click to expand...

That's what's great about the forum 

I don't know how old she is, but come spring, if she is still doing it, I would, personally, start taking her for walks on hard flat surfaces. A year ago I had a rehab who had been lame on and off for four years and was toe first landing after a year of paddock rest barefoot. I walked him on roads  and he came right extremely quickly.

I did the same with my first rehab, who had not been barefoot, but he wasn't sound to ride so I led him like a dog on walkies    It worked  quickly for him too.


----------



## dollyanna (10 January 2014)

It is what's great about the forum, and why I read it, but it can be a scary place to post as well!

She is 2.5, 3 next spring, and she already goes out for walks on the roads from time to time but I am planning to get her out more anyway now the light is changing.


----------



## dollyanna (29 January 2014)

Here you go, no photos because photobucket isn't playing ball, but slow mo footage. It isn't as bad as it looks from above! It seems most of the time she does flat landings, when she is moving right to left on the video she is going uphill so tends to toe first more, but the other way is just occasional from what I can see. Would you agree?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeclN2NI-k0


----------



## cptrayes (30 January 2014)

dollyanna said:



			Here you go, no photos because photobucket isn't playing ball, but slow mo footage. It isn't as bad as it looks from above! It seems most of the time she does flat landings, when she is moving right to left on the video she is going uphill so tends to toe first more, but the other way is just occasional from what I can see. Would you agree?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeclN2NI-k0

Click to expand...

Interesting!  What a marked difference caused by a tiny slope. And the turn really makes her do it too.

I wouldn't worry about it. On the flat she is probably landing consistently flat or heel first. I would see what happens when she's in work and has a better idea how to balance herself.

I would disinfect her feet regularly (I use peroxide) because she certainly doesn't need the encouragement of even a tiny bit of thrush to make her avoid her heels, and it will do no harm.

It's difficult to see with the hair, but I get a slight impression that her feet may be a bit long? I'd certainly keep right on top of trimming.


----------



## dollyanna (30 January 2014)

It does look like their long doesn't it? They're really not, that video was just after trimming and there is very little to take off - she has always had very upright "tight" feet and I think it just looks that way because of that. Her front feet aren't quite balanced side to side yet but are improving every time - we had a bad time with poor farrier trimming until I found a trimmer but then he messed her up on the second trim so I found our current lady who I am very happy with. She is just working with both of them as they grow and change. I am wishing I could find more resources with photos of youngsters from foal to adulthood rather than loads of rehab adults because I suspect (with no evidence) that their feet aren't yet what they will be when they are mature, and would love to confirm how much youngsters feet change. Any ideas?
The turning thing is interesting, I did think it was as if she was feeling for the ground (rather than feeling the ground) just because she hasn't quite worked out her balance issues yet. Knowing how little spatial awareness my other one has I wonder if this is her way of dealing with the same problem - he barges through life and falls over a lot, she is far more careful.


----------



## cptrayes (30 January 2014)

dollyanna said:



			It does look like their long doesn't it? They're really not, that video was just after trimming and there is very little to take off - she has always had very upright "tight" feet and I think it just looks that way because of that. Her front feet aren't quite balanced side to side yet but are improving every time - we had a bad time with poor farrier trimming until I found a trimmer but then he messed her up on the second trim so I found our current lady who I am very happy with. She is just working with both of them as they grow and change. I am wishing I could find more resources with photos of youngsters from foal to adulthood rather than loads of rehab adults because I suspect (with no evidence) that their feet aren't yet what they will be when they are mature, and would love to confirm how much youngsters feet change. Any ideas?
The turning thing is interesting, I did think it was as if she was feeling for the ground (rather than feeling the ground) just because she hasn't quite worked out her balance issues yet. Knowing how little spatial awareness my other one has I wonder if this is her way of dealing with the same problem - he barges through life and falls over a lot, she is far more careful.
		
Click to expand...

It did look a lot like a balance issue to me.  

I have seen friends' home bred horses grow to adulthood barefoot, and it was clear that the stimulus of work at three years old really helped their feet become more adult, if you know what I mean.  One also recently bought a newly backed five year old, and his feet have done the same, which suggests to me that it is as much the work as age which causes the feet to develop.

Your girl looks well up to plenty of slow work as a three year old to me, so I'd be seeing what happens after three months in work.


----------



## dollyanna (30 January 2014)

Well hopefully they will be learning about longreins this year and get out and about more - they won't be ridden until at least next year though. It will be very interesting to see how things change - I really wish I had taken photos of her feet as a baby though so I could have a record of all the changes she has made, you wouldn't believe the difference now to then.


----------

