# Shoeing - changing the shape of the foot with different shoes



## Christmas Crumpet (7 July 2014)

I know I keep harping on about these Natural Balance shoes but the more I think about it, the more I am convinced I am right.

My new horse came with normal hind shoes on and she had normal shaped hind feet. 








My farrier then put Natural Balance shoes on her and has obviously set the shoe further back than she is normally shod. She has worn the toes down and squared the foot off on both hind feet. You cannot see the toe of the shoe because it is set that much further back. 








The two types of shoe are quite different in the toe.








So surely if you put a Natural Balance squared toe shoe on a horse and set it back further than the horse is used to being shod normally, it will square the toe off in accordance with the shoe and how far back it is placed? My horse has worn the toe back to where the toe of the shoe is. If she hadn't worn the toe back then the toe would hanging way over where the toe of the shoe is?

Farrier is coming this Friday and I want to be armed with the facts and why I want horse to be shod with normal hind shoes again. This was the first time he had shod her all round. I am of the opinion if it ain't broke, don't fix it. He said he was putting Natural Balance on her hind feet because her toes were too long.

Any opinions very gratefully received.


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## Meowy Catkin (7 July 2014)

You really need to put the camera practically on the ground if you want us to be able to see the hoof angle. 

Long toes (often coupled with under-run heels) is a common thing that i see with shod horses and it is BAD. The fact that your farrier has said that your horse has long toes and that he wants to do something about it, is a good thing IMO. Yes, your horse does have a squared off toe, but it has been shod with heel support (good). You don't want to have the breakover delayed (ie the toe is long), could your farrier have shod with NB to bring the breakover back to where it should be?

I can't comment further with the info given.


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## Christmas Crumpet (7 July 2014)

Will take some ground level photos when I get home. 

I guess what I am asking is whether the position of the shoes and her long toes means that she is now naturally wearing her toe down to where it should be and that it looks drastic where she has squared the toe off because the toes were too long.


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## amandap (7 July 2014)

I believe NB shoes are supposed to bring break over back so are set and shaped to allow this. That's a pretty dramatic wear effect on your horse. I find it interesting the hind NB shoes break over is offset and your horse has worn the toe to match. When you take pics take some sole ones as well for interest.

The thing is long toes are usually due to diet (excess sugars) so often it's a case of keeping mechanical control of the hoof shape through shoeing and trimming it seems to me.


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## Meowy Catkin (7 July 2014)

I would ask - Is she squaring off the toes because she has long toes and the farrier has shod to how her hoof should be?

http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.co.uk/

Look here and especially look at the way Prince is growing a new angle on his hooves and the way that you can see how he will grow his long toes out. 

The problem with 'if it ain't broke don't fix it' is that the toes can get longer and longer and longer... so really you had been in a broken situation all along, you just didn't know it. 

Is she sound?


ETA - AP is correct, diet is key to healthy hooves.


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## Goldenstar (7 July 2014)

I disagree that the main cause of long toes is diet .
The main cause of long toes is bad shoeing .
A farrier who try's to get the breakover back is a good one in my book .
It's hard to comment from those photos and it does look like a lot of wear but if the horse was sound I would not be worried if the horse was mine.
If my farrier does something I am not sure about I get my vet to take a look and comment ( you do need a good equine vet for this ) if the vets not happy I get her to take it up with farrier .
This has lead to the farrier coming and reshoeing a horse once .


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## amandap (7 July 2014)

There's an awful lot of bad shoeing about then, what about my laminitic pony that has never been shod but her toes shoot forward and heels grow fast when she is unstable? My older cob mare had long toes recently after a spell on the grass here. She is not shod either.

Shoeing and trimming can keep control of a hoof, so poor shoeing or trimming can allow hooves to 'get away' but in my view you will be always chasing the hoof if other measures aren't right for an individual.


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## Christmas Crumpet (7 July 2014)

I think she came with long toes because her previous owner was a bit rubbish on getting her shod on time! She will be done every 5 weeks with me. Farrier happy with that timing.

Pony is also now on a low sugar/starch diet of Hifi Molasses free chaff, micronised linseed and Pro Hoof. Her previous owners liked feeding lots of sugary/starchy things.


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## Goldenstar (7 July 2014)

amandap said:



			There's an awful lot of bad shoeing about then, what about my laminitic pony that has never been shod but her toes shoot forward and heels grow fast when she is unstable? My older cob mare had long toes recently after a spell on the grass here. She is not shod either.

Shoeing and trimming can keep control of a hoof, so poor shoeing or trimming can allow hooves to 'get away' but in my view you will be always chasing the hoof if other measures aren't right for an individual.
		
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No this not correct , far far too many farriers shoe with shoes that are too short and give inadequate heel support as well as moving the break over forwards .
This is a result of the shoeing not the feet.
Too many horses get no shoeing breaks and wear the shoes for too many weeks between shoeing ( I never let mine go longer than five )
Too many owners get annoyed when horses lose shoes and shoeing for good heel support will always make the shoes more likely to come off so farriers shoe to keep shoes on and that's a start of a slippery slope .


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## Christmas Crumpet (7 July 2014)

Just realised I had some ground level side on photos of both hinds&#8230;

Off hind.








Near hind.


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## Goldenstar (7 July 2014)

Op , has the horse had flexion tests behind recently .


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## amandap (7 July 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			No this not correct , far far too many farriers shoe with shoes that are too short and give inadequate heel support as well as moving the break over forwards .
This is a result of the shoeing not the feet.
Too many horses get no shoeing breaks and wear the shoes for too many weeks between shoeing ( I never let mine go longer than five )
Too many owners get annoyed when horses lose shoes and shoeing for good heel support will always make the shoes more likely to come off so farriers shoe to keep shoes on and that's a start of a slippery slope .
		
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So there is an awful lot of bad shoeing about then? A lot of farriers must be compromising standards to pander to owners as well.

How does bad shoeing explain horses with long toes that aren't shod? I don't get it, surely you must mean bad trimming? In which case bad shoeing is not THE cause of long toes.

I always like to ask why a hoof is growing/trying to grow a certain way.


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## Christmas Crumpet (7 July 2014)

She passed a 5 stage with flying colours when I bought her less than 2 months ago.


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## Goldenstar (7 July 2014)

amandap said:



			So there is an awful lot of bad shoeing about then? A lot of farriers must be compromising standards to pander to owners as well.

How does bad shoeing explain horses with long toes that aren't shod? I don't get it, surely you must mean bad trimming? In which case bad shoeing is not THE cause of long toes.

I always like to ask why a hoof is growing/trying to grow a certain way.
		
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I am referring to where the shoe is nailed to the foot .
Which is what we are discussing here in this case.
As OP says the horse has been allowed to go to long between shoeing so what the farrier is doing makes sense .
And yes there's a lot of bad shoeing out there and a lot of bad foot care .I try not to look at horses from the knee down when I am out and about it's an unpleasant experience too much of the time .


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## Ronalda (7 July 2014)

These toes don't need to come back much but if your farrier thinks they should be shortened he should rasp them back as part of his normal preparation trim. 

NB shoes are simply rolled toe shoes marketed as something radical.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (7 July 2014)

Please do not jump down my throat!............ the first pictures do indeed look "normal" but are not detailed,I would want to see if horse was walking out properly at the time and compare it with now.
 I would be happy if a good farrier explained  that he wanted to change things, and that the effect would be "such and such" but in the long term "another outcome"
This story about  "supporting the heels" what does that mean? Do wedges "support the heels" why do heels need "support?
My comment on NB shoes ... they are heavy, I do no want heavy shoes at the end of my feet. I am an athlete, my horse is an athlete, given the choice of wearing lead clogs or rubber plymsoles, what do you select. NB are more profitable for farriers, but that is not the point. If they are not needed, or are creating a problem ..........


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## Goldenstar (7 July 2014)

A natural balance shoe will sit further back than a conventional rolled toe shoe they are not quite the same .


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## Christmas Crumpet (7 July 2014)

So here is my point&#8230; if the natural balance shoe sits back further than a conventional shoe (which she has been shod in all her life. She is 13 now) then could this be the reason she is wearing her toe down so much - because the shoe is set that much further back than she is used to?


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## Christmas Crumpet (7 July 2014)

My comment on NB shoes ... they are heavy, I do no want heavy shoes at the end of my feet. I am an athlete, my horse is an athlete, given the choice of wearing lead clogs or rubber plymsoles, what do you select. NB are more profitable,for farriers, but that is not the point. If they are not needed, or are creating a problem ..........[/QUOTE]

I did wonder also if they were heavier.


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## Goldenstar (7 July 2014)

MrsD123 said:



			Please do not jump down my throat!............ the first pictures do indeed look "normal" but are not detailed,I would want to see if horse was walking out properly at the time and compare it with now.
 I would be happy if a good farrier explained  that he wanted to change things, and that the effect would be "such and such" but in the long term "another outcome"
This story about  "supporting the heels" what does that mean? Do wedges "support the heels" why do heels need "support?
My comment on NB shoes ... they are heavy, I do no want heavy shoes at the end of my feet. I am an athlete, my horse is an athlete, given the choice of wearing lead clogs or rubber plymsoles, what do you select. NB are more profitable,for farriers, but that is not the point. If they are not needed, or are creating a problem ..........
		
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If you shoe with shoes that are too short the heel is left out behind the shoe and the break over moves forward the shoe obviously hits the ground leaving the heels functioning much less than they would that what causes the lack of heel support in fact it's the tendons and ligaments of the limb that are lacking the support .
I paid the same for NB shoes as I did for normal shoes so no cost advantage for the farrier here .
Personally from the pictures ( which are not great ) I don't think the shoes are producing a problem .
And it has to be said the best equine athletes in the world are managing to perform shod .
I have only seen wedged shoe used to raise a heel to keep pressure off a damaged limb where a horse has broken down .


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## ester (7 July 2014)

We used to have an arab on loan who with NB shoes on would do this to his front feet (possibly even more so). He was taken back to normal shoes maybe with side clips - I don't remember completely and I was less foot geeky then. I think even now though my opinion would have been that whatever the NB were doing to change the breakover he was doing his feet no good whatsoever over consecutive shoeings- to the point we were limiting work because of it and as a good doer this didn't help either. I'd have a chat to the farrier about going forwards and what he is trying to do and the best way of going about it for your horse.


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## amandap (7 July 2014)

carolineb said:



			So here is my point if the natural balance shoe sits back further than a conventional shoe (which she has been shod in all her life. She is 13 now) then could this be the reason she is wearing her toe down so much - because the shoe is set that much further back than she is used to?
		
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My guess is yes she is wearing her toes back to the shoes. NB shoes are set where break over is deemed to be correct, so if the toe is long they are set back.


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## Goldenstar (7 July 2014)

carolineb said:



			So here is my point if the natural balance shoe sits back further than a conventional shoe (which she has been shod in all her life. She is 13 now) then could this be the reason she is wearing her toe down so much - because the shoe is set that much further back than she is used to?
		
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I think that's what going on it's not necessarily wrong it may be very right.
If it where me I would get my vet to take a look that's what I to when I am not happy 
However I don't insure my horse so don't have to worry about silly exclusions and things like that.


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## ester (7 July 2014)

I think we did find that the thinning of the hoof wall at the toe/angle of it was starting to compromise the white line/become an infection risk, that was one worry at least.


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## amandap (7 July 2014)

ester said:



			I think we did find that the thinning of the hoof wall at the toe/angle of it was starting to compromise the white line/become an infection risk, that was one worry at least.
		
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I imagine if the foot is still running forward there comes a point when you have to thin almost right through the wall to try and keep the top of the hoof short.


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## ester (7 July 2014)

Yes, though I don't remember him having particularly long toes/feet that looked wrong in normal shoes. I do remember it was very disconcerting to observe as it is somewhat uncontrolled thinning compared to farrier controlled if that makes sense. I don't know if this sort of wear is potentially related to general quality of horn too?


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## amandap (7 July 2014)

Ah I misread your post ester.


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## 9tails (7 July 2014)

Are the second set of photos the same shoeing?  Because the toe wear doesn't look anywhere near as dramatic as the first photos.


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## Christmas Crumpet (7 July 2014)

Just goes to show the camera does lie - they were taken about 10 minutes apart. I took the first photo in the field then moved horse onto the tarmac drive.


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## Meowy Catkin (7 July 2014)

CB - I think that you have found a good farrier that is actively trying to get the breakover right for your horse and is interested in the hoof balance.

ETA - i do think that the horse does look like she's been shod for many years without a break. If she was mine, I'd want to give her a break from shoes.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (7 July 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			If you shoe with shoes that are too short the heel is left out behind the shoe and the break over moves forward the shoe obviously hits the ground leaving the heels functioning much less than they would that what causes the lack of heel support in fact it's the tendons and ligaments of the limb that are lacking the support .
I paid the same for NB shoes as I did for normal shoes so no cost advantage for the farrier here .
Personally from the pictures ( which are not great ) I don't think the shoes are producing a problem .
And it has to be said the best equine athletes in the world are managing to perform shod .
I have only seen wedged shoe used to raise a heel to keep pressure off a damaged limb where a horse has broken down .
		
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http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.co.uk/2012/01/dillon-with-wedges-and-more-from-h.html

OK, that is clear, I have only worked with world class farriers [by accident more than design], and when I was a rookie I knew nothing anyway, in fact I still know nothing,  except a good farrier is to be nurtured, and a bad farrier rejected. The thing is I know how to tell . I had one world class farrier shoe my boy once, but never again, I was not happy [NB shoes,  front bare behind]
Obviously that was before I became a barefoot convert.


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## Casey76 (7 July 2014)

I'd say that she is just wearing her toes to where they need to me.  If you continue in a straight line to where a "normal" shoe would end would result in a long toe.

One she has been re-trimmed and shod the "squaring off" won't look so dramatic, and probably wont result in further shortening of the toe over the next cycle.


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## Hoofheartedhere (14 July 2014)

NB shoes by design are fitted further back at the toe, to enable easier breakover and support the foot with a wider web than concave. The squared toes are part of the fitting process. Do some research. I find it peculiar why on earth this conversation is taking place here and not directly with your farrier I am sure he/she wont bite. As long as the feet are balanced and level these shoes are an asset.

NB is not a new concept, That type of shoe was first used in the late 1800s and came back into use in the early 90s.


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## Gloi (14 July 2014)

In the first picture with the old shoes on there is some wear to the toe although the shoes have stopped them wearing very much. 
If the toes keep squaring off over other shoeing cycles after the farrier has attempted to shorten them I would be suspecting a physical problem in the horse, potentially in the hocks causing her to drag her toes. Vettings don't always pick up everything.


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## Goldenstar (14 July 2014)

Gloi said:



			In the first picture with the old shoes on there is some wear to the toe although the shoes have stopped them wearing very much. 
If the toes keep squaring off over other shoeing cycles after the farrier has attempted to shorten them I would be suspecting a physical problem in the horse, potentially in the hocks causing her to drag her toes. Vettings don't always pick up everything.
		
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I would agree with this especially if the issue is bilateral and the horse has been in light work a change of home and work load might cause a  issue to get worse .
That's why I asked if the horse has been flex tested recently .


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## OwnedbyJoe (14 July 2014)

I can't see the pics (I'm at work - don't tell anyone!) but just wanted to say that I have a barefoot Arab x at home whose back feet always look like that. He squares his toes off in training. He has been poked, prodded, flex tested, ultrasounded and x rayed to hell and back and we can't find anything. In addition, as he is a qualified endurance horse who just finished his first 160km ride he has been trotted out about 20 times this year after varying amounts of work for about 8 different experienced horse vets and has never once been lame.
So it doesn't necessarily mean that there is a physical problem there. I would be waiting to see what the hoof looks like at the next shoeing as I suspect the toe has "self shortened" and the farrier will be able to take the rest of the foot back a bit more next time to make it look more "normal".


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## Christmas Crumpet (14 July 2014)

I'm a bit confused too Evenworld.

Hoofheartedhere - I have been in discussion with my farrier about the situation who assured me the shoes were the right thing for the horse. I want to know all the facts and not just one person's experience i.e the farrier because he COULD be wrong. As it turns out, the farrier has been (on Friday) and we talked at length about her feet. She is now back in normal toe clips in front and wide webbed hinds. He said he used the quarter clips in front and NB's behind because he wanted to bring her toes back which he has done. He is pleased with her feet now and yes they look far better.

However, there is something wrong with this horse which is why she is dragging her hind feet and stumbling behind. I need to find out what the problem is and why its happening so we can mend it. If the shoes were to blame then I wanted to know then and I didn't want to accuse my farrier of anything before i had all the facts. Luckily he and I get along very well so he was not upset when I questioned him at length about the NB's and he himself said "yes I could have missed something, I could be wrong&#8230; but I don't think I am"!!

One thing I will say is that it doesn't matter how many qualifications a vet or farrier etc has - you are the one who rides your horse and looks after it every day so will notice more things about it. They aren't going to know every minute detail unless you tell them. If you don't trust what you are told then you shouldn't go along with it and you should get a second opinion and ask other people's experience. This will strike a chord with many people esp. the barefoot converts. How many of you have been told by your vet that your horse won't cope without shoes etc? I very much lost faith in professionals with my old vet who said my old horse needed wedged heart bars and they absolutely crippled her. Luckily I have a new vet who I do have faith in and hopefully we will get to the bottom of this. I was looking at the obvious things - things that had changed since she arrived and since she'd had her 5 stage, the most glaring of which was the change in her shoes. 

Onwards and upwards - looking like a stifle injury now&#8230; RUBBISH!!!


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## Goldenstar (14 July 2014)

That is rubbish. 
I hope you get to the bottom of the issue quickly .
One thing to try lunge the horse on a small circle on the hard both ways get a friend to film it if poss.
Then work the horse fairly hard get off and tie it up and make it stand still for ten minutes .
Repeat the lunging again with filming .
This can be a cheap and very telling way of showing up an issue .


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## Christmas Crumpet (14 July 2014)

Yes it is pretty rubbish because she's such a lovely horse who I think is pretty perfect for what I want to do and I was so excited about hunting her. Fingers crossed whatever this is isn't dreadful. Luckily she is insured so hopefully we will find out what it is and get it sorted.


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