# 1 year old dog testing me!!



## Smith123 (16 May 2013)

Dog sitting for my mum again as she is having problems with her 1 year old dog, he was very strong minded and naughty as a puppy. He is far to smart for his own good, jumps up on the sides, escapes if you leave the door open for even 1 second! He watches your every move so he knows when he can steal things (brushes, rugs, food, shoes etc etc) he is the perfect dog off the lead on walks but gets very frustrated when on the lead.

His latest trick is when you go to grab him if he is being naughty or has stolen something or is bullying the other dogs is to snap at your hand as if to say get lost. He doesn't actually go for the hand (well I instinctively pull it away!) it's more of a go away snap.

Today for instance the other dog had a coat on while they were out at the stables, all of a sudden the naughty one decided he wanted the coat and was going to run away with it, before I got to them he had wrestled the other dog out of the coat and was running around with it, I managed to corner him and as I went to get the coat out of his mouth he did his snap thing, I withdrew my ha d and stood for a second then went for the coat again slowly, he was fine that time. I then get him to sit down, stay etc before allowing him to go.

Am I doing the right thing ignoring the snapping? Never had a dog as clever/naughty as him before.

He sometimes refuses to do things I.e paw if I have no reward he just sits there looking at me!! How do I react to that?!

Sorry for the essay!


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## Dry Rot (16 May 2013)

This is a horsey forum so I assume you have contact with horses.

What would you do with a horse that tried to nip you? Ignore it?

What would a bigger/older dog do with a year old pup that tried to nip it?


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## Alec Swan (16 May 2013)

Smith123 said:



			.......

Am I doing the right thing ignoring the snapping? Never had a dog as clever/naughty as him before.

He sometimes refuses to do things I.e paw if I have no reward he just sits there looking at me!! How do I react to that?!

.......!
		
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Para 1.  Never ignore such behaviour.  Your puppy is putting you in your place,  and succeeding by the sound of it.  Wallop the bloody thing,  and mean it!

Para 2.  Rewards?  That young man is getting the better of you,  and if you continue to bribe him,  rather than insist upon compliance,  you're going to end up with well entrenched and difficult to erase,  problems.

Alec.


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## PucciNPoni (16 May 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			Para 1.  Never ignore such behaviour.  Your puppy is putting you in your place,  and succeeding by the sound of it.  Wallop the bloody thing,  and mean it!

Para 2.  Rewards?  That young man is getting the better of you,  and if you continue to bribe him,  rather than insist upon compliance,  you're going to end up with well entrenched and difficult to erase,  problems.

Alec.
		
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Generally speaking, I don't advocate hitting - but I think in this dog's case from what was described, I'm inclined to agree with Alec!

I do lots of table training of puppies and the first thing they often try to do is mouth/bite when you try to hold on to their face/legs.  I generally ignore the behaviour and continue doing what I intend to do, and just ignore ignore ignore.  But the second the behaviour shifts from biting to relaxed and paying attention, I stop doing what I'm doing and verbally praise and make a fuss.  Repeat.  Over and over til I can do whatever I like without them attempting to bite. 

But a year old dog - taking the pish.


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## SkewbyTwo (16 May 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			Wallop the bloody thing,  and mean it!
		
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Was my first thought. Scare the bejesus out of him when he does this. It's not acceptable and will only escalate! And it's not hard to fix. He's just testing. Does your mum indulge him a bit perhaps? (Meant in the nicest possible way, honestly!)


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## SkewbyTwo (16 May 2013)

PucciNPoni said:



			I do lots of table training of puppies and the first thing they often try to do is mouth/bite when you try to hold on to their face/legs.  I generally ignore the behaviour and continue doing what I intend to do, and just ignore ignore ignore.
		
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Isn't a very sharp smack on the nose, quicker/cleaner/clearer/better?!


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## PucciNPoni (16 May 2013)

SkewbyTwo said:



			Isn't a very sharp smack on the nose, quicker/cleaner/clearer/better?!
		
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No, the last thing I want them to be is afraid of me or head/hand shy.  I would much rather they co-operate with me.  There are times they get a very firm verbal "OY!" while I'm holding their beard or whatever to basically re=gain their attention.  But no, I definitely feel that the little bit of biting on a 20 week old pup can be much more happily corrected by ignoring the bad behaviour and praising the correct.

It sounds like a lengthy process, but I can usually get them to behave within a few minutes, nearly every single time - no abuse or punishment - just by ignoring and praising when done well.


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## Teaselmeg (16 May 2013)

Firstly what kind of dog is he ? What is he fed on ? How much exercise does he get ? How much proper training has been done ?

He sounds bored, so is doing anything he can to get your attention. Chasing him when he has something you want just teaches him to guard what he has that you want.  Teach him to swap items, so that when you want him to give something up, he will happily do it. Put a harness and a short lead on him, so when he doesn't come to you, you can still get him and stop that game before it starts.

He sounds like he needs something to do, trained to know your rules and your boundaries, NOT a good wallop !!


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## Amymay (16 May 2013)

I'd cask Cayla on here if she will rehome it for you. What breed is it?


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## Alec Swan (16 May 2013)

amymay said:



			I'd cask Cayla on here if she will rehome it for you. What breed is it?
		
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That's right,  do what everyone else does,  dump it on a rescue.  WRONG.  

Both you and the dog will be happier,  when you impose your will,  teach the dog some manners,  and teach it to respect you.

Alec.


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## Smith123 (16 May 2013)

He is a Dalmatian, on high quality food (not sugary rubbish) gets a long walk in the morning hen is outside around he yard for most of the day.

My initial response when my mum told me about it was also 'give him a smack and remind him who is boss' however the angrier you get he more wound up and aggressive he gets, instead of a smack he gets a firm yank and made to sit etc before being allowed to go on. 

Sure,y smacking an already snappy dog will just lead to him being scared of the hand and snapping more when feeling distressed???


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## Booboos (16 May 2013)

As is already apparent you are likely to get loads of different advice!!!! For my money if you hit/become physical with a dog you risk getting bitten or making the dog more fearful.

I would work on a 'leave it' command so that you can ask him to leave things for a reward. In the meantime always swap what he has with a higher value treat and try to avoid chasing him but get him to come to you (really nice, smelly food should do the trick). 

Also work on gatting control of him by holding his collar. Don't grab or lunch for the collar but pick a moment when he is calm, work on his sits and then gently pop two fingers under his collar, reward and release. Try to repeat this all the time and make sure that getting hold of his collar does not always result in unpleasant experiences like being told off, or the end of the walk.

He does sound a bit bored so it might help if you can walk him more or try more training or activities like agility to keep him occupied.


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## Alec Swan (16 May 2013)

Smith123,

it isn't about violence.  It's about imposing your will upon a dog who is currently getting the better of you.  If you up the anti,  and he does the same thing,  then you're not imposing your will,  your becoming involved in a tit for tat fight,  and one which you *will* lose.  

If you physically walloped him now,  and he turned on you and meant it,  what would you do?  

Walloping him is a figure of speech.  To impose your will,  over a dog who has no respect for you,  will need to involve a level of discomfort for him and one which he can't evade,  or bring to a stop,  except by complying with your wishes.  

Being scared of your hands isn't the point,  he has to respect your hands.  It's your hands and your voice and your personna which will be the focus for him.  I'm really not explaining myself very well,  I realise,  but I suppose that the bottom line is that if you try to strike a deal with,  or reason with,  such a bolshy and difficult creature,  he will interpret ALL acts of kindness as weakness,  and he will win the argument.  

For such dogs,  care,  praise,  love and affection need to be earned.  Offer them as a reward for his bad behaviour and he'll stay as he is,  complete with his rewards!  

Regarding feed,  there's no doubt that high protein feeds can wind-up many dogs,  especially youngsters,  and in your shoes I'd be aiming at about 16-18% protein content.

If you are using food inducements,  I'd stop.  Tit bits will only serve to foster his currently self centred view of life.  His reward needs to be in pleasing you.

Alec.


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## NeverSayNever (16 May 2013)

i would go and get the advice of a good trainer. This problem is easily fixed but doing so means laying boundaries and being consistent. One raised hand isnt going to solve anything long term, all you will end up with is a confused dog. Like everything else , there is no quick easy fix and you will need to look at your whole interaction with the dog.


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## PucciNPoni (17 May 2013)

I think the initial response from me would be a firm OI and a poke in the ribs to get the dog's attention.   Sure in extreme cases it might get a smack on the bum - never, however, on a fearful dog!  It sounded to me the dog was using pure cheek and was taking the mick - not afraid.  

But I do agree that if the dog is that out of control on a regular basis, that an intervention with a good behaviourist is in order.  Long term solution will not take a quick fix.  Quick fix (above) was because I was understanding that you only had the dog short term.  Have you the time/inclination to take your mum's dog to a behaviourist?  I should have thought that SHE ought to.    rather than leave it for you to sort.


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## lexiedhb (17 May 2013)

Use time out, or a screech and MEAN it. mine was a mouthy git when I first got him- not ideal in 28kg of Staff X to say the least!! When he mouthed I screeched at him like he had broken my arm- properly loud etc- he ran out the room- never mouthed me again. I too do not want a dog who is doing things for fear of repercussions such as a smack etc- its just not necessary!

For any other unwanted behaviour I use time out (thanks Cayla). Take dog by the collar and place in another room, door closed for 5 mins (unless they are making noise), open door- no eye contact, no praise nothing until they are calmly doing something you see as good behaviour .

Ans all of what Teaselmeg said!


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## Smith123 (17 May 2013)

Thanks for th advice everyone, I have been using time out which seems to work. The only problem being getting hold of him as he sees it as a game! The snapping thing is quite new and he doesn't do it that often so I wanted to iron it out and not make it a big deal rather than making him think it works...

Please keep the advice coming, I am going to be strict today and mean it! Will let you know tonight...


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## Smith123 (17 May 2013)

Ps she is booked in with a trainer for him next week!!


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## lexiedhb (17 May 2013)

Then dont get hold of him- remove yourself from the room he is in and shut that door.......


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## Jools2345 (17 May 2013)

lexiedhb said:



			Then dont get hold of him- remove yourself from the room he is in and shut that door.......
		
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is he not then just controlling where you are by getting you to leave his space

i would keep a lightweight long line on him, then you can remove him from the room with no anger/frustration/fear or risk.

my experience of dalmations is fairly limited, they are i am not keen on as all barring one that i have known have approached/reached maturity and become dominant and if not handled properly this becomes aggressive dominance. i think the levels of excersise needed for this breed are dramatically under estimated


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## galaxy (17 May 2013)

I used time out with Harley when he was a brat. If you can't get hold of him without fear if being bitten have you got a slip lead you could get over his head so you don't have to touch him? Either that or leave a lead on him. 

Glad you have a trainer involved. When I first got Harley I went to a trainer who had the view of dominating dogs to earn respect. After a while we took up agility at a club which uses positive training and I have had much better results and a much happier dog and me!


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## lexiedhb (17 May 2013)

Jools2345 said:



			is he not then just controlling where you are by getting you to leave his space

i would keep a lightweight long line on him, then you can remove him from the room with no anger/frustration/fear or risk.

my experience of dalmations is fairly limited, they are i am not keen on as all barring one that i have known have approached/reached maturity and become dominant and if not handled properly this becomes aggressive dominance. i think the levels of excersise needed for this breed are dramatically under estimated
		
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I guess it depends on the dog- removing myself/company from my dog is the worst thing in the world, so it did not matter if I shut the door to the room he was in, or removed him. It just means everything stops, no contact, no praise, no games, no nothing. Wait for calm- re open door.


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## galaxy (17 May 2013)

I don't remove from the room when I do time out. I take hold of him and tell him to lay down in a certain place. Then I don't speak or look at him. If he gets up I simply put him back on that spot. I kept on doing this and he soon caught on.


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## Dry Rot (17 May 2013)

If a dog bites me I react immediately and violently. They don't do it again and seconds later the normal friendly relationship and mutual respect will be resumed.

I am really staggered by some of the replies on here, but there is nothing new in that!

When you have had the opportunity to observe a number of dogs living together in a social group (i.e. pack of hounds, dog kennelled together, etc) you quickly come to realise how important the hierarchy is within the pack. Anyone stepping out of line is INSTANTLY put in their place. That often won't be noticed by a casual observer as the signals are often very subtle.

After that is done, it is highly likely that the immediate aggression will not need to be repeated. A flick of an ear, a slightly raised lip, more seriously a low growl.... That instant reaction is immediately followed by a resumption of the normal calm status quo. Someone steps out of line, gets the predictable instant reaction, and now we can all go back to normal. The offender will often show signs of relief and even joy at being put in it's place. That is how dogs deal with it. Next time the offender will pay attention to the warning. Finish. End of.

It is no wonder to me that we have some many people getting bitten and children mauled. It is not the physical pain of a blow (dogs are tough) but the shock value of an INSTANT reaction. Of course, if you have two dogs of equal social status doing this, you might have a fight, but it should never get to that situation between the owner and a dog.

For goodness sake stop treating them like children and give them the respect and dignity of being dogs. I always say training (any animal) is a matter of explaining to them what is wanted _in terms they can understand_. Putting them on the naughty step isn't going to do it. Dogs don't think like that.

<exasperated sigh>


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## lexiedhb (17 May 2013)

People have just told you that "putting the dog on the naughty step" or time out WORKS, so dogs DO obviously respond to, and understand that........... jeez


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## Teaselmeg (17 May 2013)

Dry Rot said:



			If a dog bites me I react immediately and violently. They don't do it again and seconds later the normal friendly relationship and mutual respect will be resumed.

I am really staggered by some of the replies on here, but there is nothing new in that!

When you have had the opportunity to observe a number of dogs living together in a social group (i.e. pack of hounds, dog kennelled together, etc) you quickly come to realise how important the hierarchy is within the pack. Anyone stepping out of line is INSTANTLY put in their place. That often won't be noticed by a casual observer as the signals are often very subtle.

After that is done, it is highly likely that the immediate aggression will not need to be repeated. A flick of an ear, a slightly raised lip, more seriously a low growl.... That instant reaction is immediately followed by a resumption of the normal calm status quo. Someone steps out of line, gets the predictable instant reaction, and now we can all go back to normal. The offender will often show signs of relief and even joy at being put in it's place. That is how dogs deal with it. Next time the offender will pay attention to the warning. Finish. End of.

It is no wonder to me that we have some many people getting bitten and children mauled. It is not the physical pain of a blow (dogs are tough) but the shock value of an INSTANT reaction. Of course, if you have two dogs of equal social status doing this, you might have a fight, but it should never get to that situation between the owner and a dog.

For goodness sake stop treating them like children and give them the respect and dignity of being dogs. I always say training (any animal) is a matter of explaining to them what is wanted _in terms they can understand_. Putting them on the naughty step isn't going to do it. Dogs don't think like that.

<exasperated sigh>
		
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How is hitting a dog giving it dignity and respect ?  Positive reward based traiining is based on teaching them what we would like them to do in a way that they understand, based on how dogs learn.  My dogs are not treated like children, they have rules and boundaries that they understand and respect.  If a dog is not trained to know what you expect of them, how can they get it right ? 

I went to a talk by David Ryan last weekend, he is an ex police dog handler, well known for his books on predatory chasing in dogs. The whole day he talked about training dogs in a way they understand and went on to say how much better the police dogs responded to that form of traning rather than using adversive methods.  He also talked about how we must take into account breed traits, if a dog is bred to run and you dont give it enough exercise, it will seek an outlet for that frustration in another way ( chewing, stealing things etc). 

You have to look at the bigger picture, not just wallop the dog each time it does not do something that YOU think is wrong.


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## Dry Rot (17 May 2013)

lexiedhb said:



			People have just told you that "putting the dog on the naughty step" or time out WORKS, so dogs DO obviously respond to, and understand that........... jeez
		
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An overly complicated way of re-establishing the social hierarchy. I really couldn't be bothered and would hope I have a better rapport with any dog I owned.


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## lexiedhb (17 May 2013)

Dry Rot said:



			An overly complicated way of re-establishing the social hierarchy. I really couldn't be bothered and would hope I have a better rapport with any dog I owned.
		
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Becasue hitting a dog makes you have such a great rapport?????


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## Amymay (17 May 2013)

The OP simply has the wrong dog.  Dalmations are not for everyone - and I would advocate looking to re-home it at the earliest opportunity before things go from bad to worse.

Despite Dear Alec's objection, I _would_ be contacting Cayla to see if there's anything she can do to help you.


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## stargirl88 (17 May 2013)

Wow, ALOT of contrasting advice!

Here's my view anyway.

Presumably, as AmyMay has said, you probably did get the wrong dog. People assume dals are for everyone, they're not! It sounds as though he got away with alot of a puppy, and now he is bigger, stronger and has the mentality of a teenager you have even more to contend with.

Regardless, it doesn't mean you can't work with it.

Your dog is snapping at you because something has happened when you've gone to grab him that isn't nice to him - it could be a reprimand/man-handling/whatever. You backing off has just reinforced his behaviour, so he's now learning that a snap will get you to go away. 
How do you change it? Firstly, I wouldn't be hitting the dog. If you reprimand a snap, what's the next behaviour in line? It's a bite. Your dog is telling you it's unhappy about something. Giving it a whack around the face isn't going to teach him that your hands reaching down to him is okay, is it? Please don't do this. It's all very well people sitting on a forum dishing out such advice, but physical correction needs to be sharp and accurate if it to be in any way effective - but my physical strength VS a dogs teeth isn't a battle I choose to get involved with.

Someone suggest a long line - I think this would be a good idea for you. It means that you can move/get to your dog without reaching down for its collar which it now obvs has issues with. It is also good for the time-outs, when he starts getting wound-up, pick up the line - walk him away and shut him out. NO eye/verbal/physical contact. He may chew/piss around on the end of the line but this can just be ignored.

Also think he might need stuff to do. Just because he is at the yard all day doesn't mean it's constant exercise, and I can imagine all his annoying behaviours that you think he has are, to him, great fun because he's managed to occupy himself.... and then gets a load of attention from everyone (even if it is negative)!

I hope it goes well with the trainer!


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## ecrozier (17 May 2013)

Interesting responses. Op, does the dog know the meaning of the word 'no'? My parents have a 1 year old pointer, and while she isn't ever aggressive, she drives me round the bend as she does exactly what she likes, when she likes. I will use my best 'don't you dare even think about it' tone of voice which has my adult rottie backing away at a rate of knots from whatever he was doing and works already on my 4 month old puppy, and my 17hh horse tbh, but she just carries right on with what she is doing! I think what is important is installing the understanding that there WILL be repercussions if he ignores you. Whether that be time out, a smack, a raised voice, being tied up, whatever, that's a matter of personal preference probably. But if your mum's dog is anything like my mum's, that is the missing link!! She also will turn around and mouth at you if you grab her collar, and is very snappy in play with other dogs, both it which I would be actively correcting if she were mine (ie she'd get sharply told off if her mouth headed in direction of my hand when holding her collar, and any play with other dogs which got too 'snappy' would end, instantly). But sometimes it is hard when a) the dog has got away with it for a while and b) you aren't there 24/7 to see what goes on!!


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## Smith123 (17 May 2013)

ecrozier said:



			Interesting responses. Op, does the dog know the meaning of the word 'no'? My parents have a 1 year old pointer, and while she isn't ever aggressive, she drives me round the bend as she does exactly what she likes, when she likes. I will use my best 'don't you dare even think about it' tone of voice which has my adult rottie backing away at a rate of knots from whatever he was doing and works already on my 4 month old puppy, and my 17hh horse tbh, but she just carries right on with what she is doing! I think what is important is installing the understanding that there WILL be repercussions if he ignores you. Whether that be time out, a smack, a raised voice, being tied up, whatever, that's a matter of personal preference probably. But if your mum's dog is anything like my mum's, that is the missing link!! She also will turn around and mouth at you if you grab her collar, and is very snappy in play with other dogs, both it which I would be actively correcting if she were mine (ie she'd get sharply told off if her mouth headed in direction of my hand when holding her collar, and any play with other dogs which got too 'snappy' would end, instantly). But sometimes it is hard when a) the dog has got away with it for a while and b) you aren't there 24/7 to see what goes on!!
		
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She sounds identical!!


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## Smith123 (17 May 2013)

stargirl88 said:



			Wow, ALOT of contrasting advice!

Here's my view anyway.

Presumably, as AmyMay has said, you probably did get the wrong dog. People assume dals are for everyone, they're not! It sounds as though he got away with alot of a puppy, and now he is bigger, stronger and has the mentality of a teenager you have even more to contend with.

Regardless, it doesn't mean you can't work with it.

Your dog is snapping at you because something has happened when you've gone to grab him that isn't nice to him - it could be a reprimand/man-handling/whatever. You backing off has just reinforced his behaviour, so he's now learning that a snap will get you to go away. 
How do you change it? Firstly, I wouldn't be hitting the dog. If you reprimand a snap, what's the next behaviour in line? It's a bite. Your dog is telling you it's unhappy about something. Giving it a whack around the face isn't going to teach him that your hands reaching down to him is okay, is it? Please don't do this. It's all very well people sitting on a forum dishing out such advice, but physical correction needs to be sharp and accurate if it to be in any way effective - but my physical strength VS a dogs teeth isn't a battle I choose to get involved with.

Someone suggest a long line - I think this would be a good idea for you. It means that you can move/get to your dog without reaching down for its collar which it now obvs has issues with. It is also good for the time-outs, when he starts getting wound-up, pick up the line - walk him away and shut him out. NO eye/verbal/physical contact. He may chew/piss around on the end of the line but this can just be ignored.

Also think he might need stuff to do. Just because he is at the yard all day doesn't mean it's constant exercise, and I can imagine all his annoying behaviours that you think he has are, to him, great fun because he's managed to occupy himself.... and then gets a load of attention from everyone (even if it is negative)!

I hope it goes well with the trainer!
		
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Thank you, a very helpfull answer


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## Spudlet (17 May 2013)

No responsible trainer would give some of the advice you've been getting here without at the very least seeing you and your dog in person, OP. In fact, most of the membership and accreditation schemes for trainers (which are many and varied in their approach) would consider it extremely inappropriate for any professional instructor to be dishing out advice on an issue like this before seeing and assessing the dog and handler.

The best thing you can do is to see a trainer, so it's great you are doing this. The one bit of advice _I'll_ give you is to ask as many questions as you can - most importantly of all, 'why?', to make sure they and you both know why they are telling you to do whatever it is they are telling you to do. Good luck, and I hope it goes well.


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## ecrozier (17 May 2013)

Smith123 - possibly in a way a similar situation of inappropriate breed matches to owners as well in both cases?! Certainly various gun dog people I know would say pointers are one of the trickier of that group and really my parents ought to have gone for something smaller/lower energy, but they had a pointer before (who was also fairly unruly but was part of a busy household with teenagers etc when younger and then was much quieter in her dotage (unsurprisingly, she was 14 when she passed away!).
But, too late for hindsight really. Does your mum appreciate there is a problem? That's what I am battling with at the moment!! I had hoped that seeing my pup who is almost a year younger but will stop/drop whatever he is doing at te mention of the word 'no' might make it sink in that discipline a bit lacking, but doesn't seem to have made any difference!


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## CAYLA (17 May 2013)

I agree with a bit of everyones thinking but I also agree (trainer) why? because (don't mean to be patronising) the issue is very easy to solve, it's (humans) that need detailed instruction and (demonstration)......I always say "bring yourself and the dog to me and I will show you how I would deal with the issue and we will then take it from there!! would I deal with it differently if say you handed the dog to me (yes) and I would solve the issue quick, however working with you/any other owner I would work with how best I believe the OWNER can carry out instruction and their capability of handling said dog and to follow instruction (which is basically where it all goes to pot) (hard to explain) but different people have different ability as to how to deal with an issue and how quick they solve it.
My tool is my voice and my own body language and my ability to enforce (structure) from the get go and the teach and allow a dog to learn the rules and boundaries, what I will and wont accept (they get it quick) it also makes a huge difference when you deal with a mass variety of behaviour/breeds, and understanding your breed as suggested is (VERY) important but can't be used as an excuse for poor handling/bad behaviour in majority of bad behaviours
Use a slip lead when you need to safely get hold of the dog to stop you being bitten, don't stop handling him just take safety precautions, with the issue you are having I would not advise you what to do without seeing (mainly you/your parents) interact with the dog, nothing at all to do with the dog I can picture him and his behaviour in my head very clearly (but would be more interested as to your own handling of the dog and the situations) dalmations are willful, high energy breeds and they certainly need firm consistant handling aswell as positive reward it's true enough, funnily enough Im working with one right now, a bouncy naughty bitch with NO manners/no training, onto her 4th home! to me she is normal and easy but to others (because they make a rod for their bad with her) she is proving to be hard work (her owner yesterday said, he though I was like Victoria Stillwell) I take offence at that to be honest, but it's by the by


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## CorvusCorax (17 May 2013)

Apologies if others have said it but Stargirl has explained it - the dog is doing something in order to get you to stop what you are doing. And you stop doing it.
The dog has trained you to leave it alone to get on with what it wants to be doing. I'd take that kind of thinking, and work your way backwards to a solution.

Good that she is going to see a trainer, but as others, use your voice, your physical presence, your hand, isolate her, give the dog a purpose, whatever works, but I would not be ignoring it.


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## Dexter (17 May 2013)

Teaselmeg said:



			He also talked about how we must take into account breed traits, if a dog is bred to run and you dont give it enough exercise, it will seek an outlet for that frustration in another way ( chewing, stealing things etc).
		
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Thats very true! I have a very wilful and high energy 18month old whippet. I was his 4th home by the time he was 3 months old because he was an utter nightmare! For the first 6 months I think he reduced me to tears at least once every single day! If I could have rehomed him with a clear conscience I would have done. Because I couldnt I carried on. Separation anxiety, stealing, destroying things, culminating when he was 10months old with him jumping up and biting my arm when he was "playing" for which he got a very hard and instantaneous wallop! I then got some brilliant advice from a trainer and changed everything about how I dealt with him.

Hes bred to work and bred to run, so thats what I do. I run him, and run him hard every single day. 5 miles most days, 10 miles 2 or 3 times a week. Usually in the woods, up the hills and across the moors. A different walk EVERY single day. I have about 30 walks I alternate. We go to the beach, out on the bus/train, I race him, I have him chase balls and do training sessions to keep his brain working. Different things all the time. 

Every thing I do is about making him want to do the right thing. He doesnt respond to harsh treatment and just shuts down. It once took my friend who dog sat for me nearly 2 hours to catch him because he shouted at him instead of calling him nicely 

I also rescued an older bitch who regularly puts him back in his place much better than I ever could. 

He will never be an easy dog, but hes a manageable dog now. So long as I manage him properly that is  And he is genuinely the dog of a lifetime for me. I love the very bones of him and I'm just sorry it took me 6 months to get my act together!  

Sometimes people end up with the wrong dog and its either make each other miserable, rehome the dog, or the owner needs to change their lifestyle so its suitable for the dog. I chose the latter and I will never regret it


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## Goldenstar (17 May 2013)

If one of mine gets rude I wrestle it to the ground making my best fearsome I not pleased noise and hold it down until it summits .
One year old dogs do push boundaries I hope the trainer gives you some good systems to deal with it.


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## jodie3 (17 May 2013)

A one year old Dalmatian is going to be a very high energy dog which will need a lot of mental stimulation as well as physical activity.  

They do respond well to training but you need to be consistent with the training as they are more intelligent than most people give them credit for and will look to do their own thing if given a chance.

They mostly crave human companionship and want to please you, but on their terms!

They are also the Peter Pan of the dog world and don't calm down much with age.

Don't forget they were bred to run all day alongside a carriage.

And I am mad enough to have three!


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## Alec Swan (17 May 2013)

Teaselmeg said:



			How is hitting a dog giving it dignity and respect ?  
.......

*You have to look at the bigger picture, not just wallop the dog each time it does not do something that YOU think is wrong.*

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lexiedhb said:



			Becasue hitting a dog makes you have such a great rapport????? 

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You both,  along with others,  seem to have the idea that physical force is used to make a dog do as you wish.  That isn't the case.

With all dogs,  the trainer needs to have the animal's respect.  There are those dogs who will respond in a willing manner,  and there are those,  who through mismanagement in the early stages,  will defy the handler,  they'll be as wooden as possible and whilst it's often breed-linked,  they can be pig ignorant.  

There has never been any point in striking a dig because it doesn't understand you or makes a mistake,  and that seems the be the direction of your argument.  Violence in such a situation is counterproductive.  I realise that you don't understand,  but those dogs which actively refuse to show any degree of respect for the handler,  on occasions need the facts of life pointed out to them.  Striking a dog which refuses to listen or consider the handler,  is on occasions,  the shortest and often the only way to gaining the animals attention.  NO relationship with a dog will be of value if it relies upon violence.  Relationships with dogs must be a matter of mutual respect,  and sometimes,  to break through the outer shell of ignorance or stubbornness or just downright pig headedness,  a wallop works wonders!

When a dog DOES understand the handler,  and chooses to ignore the instructions,  or in the case of the OP's Dalmation,  chooses to snap at the owner,  then that dog needs to learn some manners,  and the shortest route to that,  is as Dry Rot has said,  treat it as another dog would.

Whether you choose to listen,  is up to you both,  but in closing I would ask you one question;  If D_R and I are so barbaric and wrong,  why do you suppose that we both stated on previous threads,  and independently of each other,  that the use of electric collars are cruel,  especially in the hands of the inexperienced,  yet there was a general chorus on here supporting their use?

Alec.


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## stargirl88 (17 May 2013)

Okay I normally stay away from these threads but just want to say, Alec, that I know well-timed and appropriate physical corrections are effective - but I do sometimes wish you'd be careful who you say this to. 
Such 'training' can get quickly get very ugly indeed, and in so many cases goes the wrong way, making the dog worse. As CAYLA said, you  need to think about what works for the owner, not you. There are other ways to gain respect from an unruly teen, which are alot more "user-friendly".

My old trainer hammered into me that she trains and teaches as though her clients were all 6stone and their dogs were over-sized rotties, a smack would be shrugged off. Certainately maked me think, anyway!


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## Alec Swan (17 May 2013)

stargirl88 said:



			Okay I normally stay away from these threads but just want to say, Alec, that I know well-timed and appropriate physical corrections are effective - but I do sometimes wish you'd be careful who you say this to.  *I'm sorry,  that's gone over my head.  Why should I be careful?*

Such 'training' can get quickly get very ugly indeed,  *Again,  I don't understand.  Sustained violence achieves nothing,  and a relationship built upon violence is equally wrong.  My argument concerns the dog which wilfully ignores all other entreaties,  and responds to the treatment which a bigger,  an older,  and a stronger dog would dish out. * 

There are other ways to gain respect from an unruly teen, which are alot more "user-friendly".  *Really?  I'm all ears!  Earning,  or demanding a dog's respect are one and the same thing.  It's vital that dogs are compliant and obedient,  be that in a work or a domestic environment.  I've a mate who has a terrier,  it's facially scarred his daughter AND his wife for life,  and it's bitten him on numerous occasions,  and it's always the same problem.  The dog claims a chair,  and you go near it at your peril.  It started when the dog was a puppy,  and they thought that it was funny.  It isn't so funny now.  I offered to shoot the bloody thing,  but no,  they love it!  *

.......
		
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Alec.


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## Clodagh (17 May 2013)

Alec and DR I agree with you that a smack is often the answer but you can't teach people when to do it. It is something you know or you don't. I (hope) I can tell when a dog would react better to a smack/ a raised voice or just ignoring. Each dog is different and some owners just don't have the knowledge, or the instinct, to be able to instantly tell what is appropriate in that circumstance and at that specific time.
Some dogs need a smack and some dogs need understanding. A lot of people just know what is best, but a lot of people don't.


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## Booboos (17 May 2013)

'Respect' is a notion that only beings with higher cognitive abilities can understand and apply. I find it very odd that people advise that dogs should be treated as dogs and in the same breath go on about the dog respecting the owner.


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## Teaselmeg (17 May 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			You both,  along with others,  seem to have the idea that physical force is used to make a dog do as you wish.  That isn't the case.

With all dogs,  the trainer needs to have the animal's respect.  There are those dogs who will respond in a willing manner,  and there are those,  who through mismanagement in the early stages,  will defy the handler,  they'll be as wooden as possible and whilst it's often breed-linked,  they can be pig ignorant.  

There has never been any point in striking a dig because it doesn't understand you or makes a mistake,  and that seems the be the direction of your argument.  Violence in such a situation is counterproductive.  I realise that you don't understand,  but those dogs which actively refuse to show any degree of respect for the handler,  on occasions need the facts of life pointed out to them.  Striking a dog which refuses to listen or consider the handler,  is on occasions,  the shortest and often the only way to gaining the animals attention.  NO relationship with a dog will be of value if it relies upon violence.  Relationships with dogs must be a matter of mutual respect,  and sometimes,  to break through the outer shell of ignorance or stubbornness or just downright pig headedness,  a wallop works wonders!

When a dog DOES understand the handler,  and chooses to ignore the instructions,  or in the case of the OP's Dalmation,  chooses to snap at the owner,  then that dog needs to learn some manners,  and the shortest route to that,  is as Dry Rot has said,  treat it as another dog would.

Whether you choose to listen,  is up to you both,  but in closing I would ask you one question;  If D_R and I are so barbaric and wrong,  why do you suppose that we both stated on previous threads,  and independently of each other,  that the use of electric collars are cruel,  especially in the hands of the inexperienced,  yet there was a general chorus on here supporting their use?

Alec.
		
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I am not sure how you can advocate striking a dog to get its respect and then say ' NO relationship with a dog will be of value if it relies on violence' ??? 

I lot of people think their dog is being willful, dominant etc when in fact it just does not understand what is being asked of it. If the dog is not doing what you ask of it, take a step back and proof the command it is ignoring.

OP, I am glad your parents are getting help from a trainer ( although if the trainer wants them to be pack leader or dominate the dog, change trainers !) Advice on the internet can only be based on what is written, having someone experienced seeing the problem first hand is 100 times better, good luck !!


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## Smith123 (17 May 2013)

Thanks for the replies everyone, I really interesting debate.

An update on today, from getting up I have taken a no nonsense attitude to him today. Sitting, letting me through doors first, waiting, stepping back etc etc...

He gas been perfect apart from one little incident, he was in his bed under the table and I wanted him to get up to go out for a wee. I called and he just looked at me, normally my mum would then go and get him a treat to get him up, but I didn't want to do that. I quietly went to get him up with my hand and he did a tiny argumentative snap( he never actually gets my hand its more of a threat' I straight away pulled his bed and tipped him out, shouted at him and he sat there very submissively. He went out came back in and I ignored him until he came and sat by me. After this he has been very quiet and submissive tonight!! I seem to be understanding him a bit more now...


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## Alec Swan (17 May 2013)

Booboos said:



			'Respect' is a notion that only beings with higher cognitive abilities can understand and apply. ........
		
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If we're to accept the general understanding of the word,  then that is clearly wrong.

Alec.


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## CAYLA (17 May 2013)

Smith123 said:



			Thanks for the replies everyone, I really interesting debate.

An update on today, from getting up I have taken a no nonsense attitude to him today. Sitting, letting me through doors first, waiting, stepping back etc etc...

He gas been perfect apart from one little incident, he was in his bed under the table and I wanted him to get up to go out for a wee. I called and he just looked at me, normally my mum would then go and get him a treat to get him up, but I didn't want to do that. I quietly went to get him up with my hand and he did a tiny argumentative snap( he never actually gets my hand its more of a threat' I straight away pulled his bed and tipped him out, shouted at him and he sat there very submissively. He went out came back in and I ignored him until he came and sat by me. After this he has been very quiet and submissive tonight!! I seem to be understanding him a bit more now...
		
Click to expand...

You have confused him with your change in handling him, he is now the one thinking twice, he sees another side to you a firmer no nonsense side
Never go get a dog that hides under a table (its inviting an attention seeking game of (snap) and knows it has the upper had esp if you hesitate in the way you skirt around trying to avoid the snap as (CC suggests) snap/snack = (result) freedom/human goes/backs off, you upped the anti and tackled if from another angle (good for you)


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## Booboos (17 May 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			If we're to accept the general understanding of the word,  then that is clearly wrong.

Alec.
		
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The dictionary definition is "a feeling of deep admiration for someone elicited by their abilities, qualities or achievements", synonyms 'regard', 'esteem', 'reverence'
according to which my point still stands. A dog can neither perceive nor evaluate a person's abilities qualities and achievements. "Respect" is a complex, normative term - whatever one thinks about the possibility of conscious thought in animals I don't think anyone claims they can understand such concepts.

What is the general understanding of the word and how does it differ from the dictionary definition?


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## Alec Swan (17 May 2013)

Teaselmeg said:



			I am not sure how you can advocate striking a dog to get its respect and then say ' NO relationship with a dog will be of value if it *relies* on violence' ??? 

.......
		
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Once a respectful and compliant state has been reached,  then there will be no need for violence.  If a canine/human relationship is *reliant* upon violence to maintain control,  then the relationship is worthless.  I'm not too sure how else to explain it.  

There are those dogs who through their breed type,  or upbringing,  are given to being selfish,  non compliant and ignorant.  There are also those,  who for the very same reasons,  have such a drive and energy,  such a will,  that they have to be forced into compliance.  I've a home bred cocker bitch who's now 11 months.  I don't care for too early a start on obedience work with puppies,  I prefer to allow them to develop,  working on the basis that I can be a bit hard on dogs,  and I'd always rather have a dog which I have to stop,  than one which I have to push and encourage.  This puppy has been a little horror!  She's had to learn the hard way,  and now that she listens to me,  now that she's decided against taking off and killing the bantams,  now that she drops to just a peep of the whistle and takes her sides,  and hunts like a (mostly) controlled dog,  with a drive and style which can't be put there,  she and I are now the best of mates.  We still have our moments,  but we're building a relationship,  and she's growing to like and respect me,  as I am her.  If I were still using physical contact to control her,  then that would be a relationship which wouldn't be what I want,  it would be worthless.  Perhaps I haven't explained myself too well previously.  Has that helped? 

Alec.


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## stargirl88 (17 May 2013)

*I'm sorry, that's gone over my head. Why should I be careful?* - because of the next point in that post  some people have the ability to time a phyisical correction perfectly, others not so. Obviously none of us has seen the dog, and I'm not saying the OP is ster-youpid but if someone goes home after reading such advice, gives their dog a smack thinking they'll get respect, and it backfires on them (as in, just makes the dog more confused - frustrated - and therefore aggressive) I just think it's a bit risky posting things like that. Not that you'd be responsible for others stupidity, and of course people should get advice off REAL LIFE PEOPLES but hopefully that makes a bit more sense! That's why, if I do suggest anything on this forum, it'll be stuff that, should someone get it wrong, everything won't go tits-up or get worse. Does that make sense?

*Again, I don't understand. Sustained violence achieves nothing, and a relationship built upon violence is equally wrong. My argument concerns the dog which wilfully ignores all other entreaties, and responds to the treatment which a bigger, an older, and a stronger dog would dish out. * Pretty much meant what I just wrote, it can get ugly - not everyone is strong enough to dish out the treatment of another dog. Nor do we have the visual/body language of another dog - so acting like one doesn't necessarily get you anywhere. I don't want to drag this name up but there's that classic video of Caesar M reprimanding a dog "being the alpha" and had the dog climbing back up the lead at him. That's what I mean when I say it can turn ugly - and he's a pro with those methods! I wouldnt, personally, expect your average pet owner to be doing that.


*Really? I'm all ears! Earning, or demanding a dog's respect are one and the same thing. It's vital that dogs are compliant and obedient, be that in a work or a domestic environment. I've a mate who has a terrier, it's facially scarred his daughter AND his wife for life, and it's bitten him on numerous occasions, and it's always the same problem. The dog claims a chair, and you go near it at your peril. It started when the dog was a puppy, and they thought that it was funny. It isn't so funny now. I offered to shoot the bloody thing, but no, they love it!  *
There are all sorts, which I'm sure you're already aware of, but I know you'll run off screaming if I mention food  but it's taking control of a dog, and it's environment. What does the dog want? What's driving it? A food-motivated dog can be put on a learn to earn program, a toy-motivated dog - restrict toy access. Freedom-motivated - use free-time as a reward (If I spot a squirrel in the distance, I'll call my dog over, I'll work him a bit, he'll wonder why.... then I yell SQUIRRELLL!!!, I'll point, and it's the best reward in the Whole Wide World (yes I can recall him off it  ). YES it's the long-winded versions, but it does work, and the dog is confident with it. 
As for your mate with the JR - that's a classic, isn't it! But it's not the dog being dis-respectful, to me. It's no different to me laughing because a dog chased its tail, and x-amount-of-time later I have a compulsive tail-chaser on my hands. Only it was aggression they were reinforcing.

Hope I've made sense!

Either way, OP, glad you're finding a way that works. Onwards and upwards


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## Alec Swan (17 May 2013)

Smith123 said:



			.......

An update on today, from getting up I have taken a no nonsense attitude to him today. Sitting, letting me through doors first, waiting, stepping back etc etc...

He gas been perfect apart from one little incident, he was in his bed under the table and I wanted him to get up to go out for a wee. I called and he just looked at me, normally my mum would then go and get him a treat to get him up, but I didn't want to do that. ..........
		
Click to expand...

Whilst I'm yacking away with others,  I'm ignoring you,  but it isn't intentional!  That really is excellent news.  I'm not patronising you,  that's real progress.  Dogs are actually happier when they understand their boundaries,  and they live in a disciplined world.  It may well be that with asserting your authority,  by claiming doorways and gates,  by making the dog lie down before permitting movement,  that you will find his "don't touch me,  I'll do as I like"  approach to life comes to an end,  without you slapping him!!

I'm pleased to hear that you resisted the idea of tit-bits.  Make him work for the praise which you give him,  that should be his only reward.

A word of warning,  as CAYLA so rightly says,  never go after a dog which is under a table.  It's asking for trouble,  but again,  well done.

Alec.


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## Alec Swan (17 May 2013)

Booboos said:



			.......

What is the general understanding of the word and how does it differ from the dictionary definition?
		
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_"Respect is a positive feeling of esteem or deference for a person or other entity (such as a nation or a religion), and also specific actions and conduct representative of that esteem...."_

If we accept that an "other entity" could be a dog,  I'm reliant upon Wiki for that one!  

Discarding any attempts at anthropomorphism,  if we consider that young male lions in a pride,  from what I see on the telly,  will show due deference and respect to the pride leaders,  so the word respect,  though not of an entirely ethereal nature,  can be used to describe what in essence is the fear of causing offence.  Respect works for me,  and I suspect,  for others.

Alec.


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## Smith123 (17 May 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			Whilst I'm yacking away with others,  I'm ignoring you,  but it isn't intentional!  That really is excellent news.  I'm not patronising you,  that's real progress.  Dogs are actually happier when they understand their boundaries,  and they live in a disciplined world.  It may well be that with asserting your authority,  by claiming doorways and gates,  by making the dog lie down before permitting movement,  that you will find his "don't touch me,  I'll do as I like"  approach to life comes to an end,  without you slapping him!!

I'm pleased to hear that you resisted the idea of tit-bits.  Make him work for the praise which you give him,  that should be his only reward.

A word of warning,  as CAYLA so rightly says,  never go after a dog which is under a table.  It's asking for trouble,  but again,  well done.

Alec.
		
Click to expand...

Thank you  what should I do if he hides under the table?


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## Teaselmeg (17 May 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			Once a respectful and compliant state has been reached,  then there will be no need for violence.  If a canine/human relationship is *reliant* upon violence to maintain control,  then the relationship is worthless.  I'm not too sure how else to explain it.  

There are those dogs who through their breed type,  or upbringing,  are given to being selfish,  non compliant and ignorant.  There are also those,  who for the very same reasons,  have such a drive and energy,  such a will,  that they have to be forced into compliance.  I've a home bred cocker bitch who's now 11 months.  I don't care for too early a start on obedience work with puppies,  I prefer to allow them to develop,  working on the basis that I can be a bit hard on dogs,  and I'd always rather have a dog which I have to stop,  than one which I have to push and encourage.  This puppy has been a little horror!  She's had to learn the hard way,  and now that she listens to me,  now that she's decided against taking off and killing the bantams,  now that she drops to just a peep of the whistle and takes her sides,  and hunts like a (mostly) controlled dog,  with a drive and style which can't be put there,  she and I are now the best of mates.  We still have our moments,  but we're building a relationship,  and she's growing to like and respect me,  as I am her.  If I were still using physical contact to control her,  then that would be a relationship which wouldn't be what I want,  it would be worthless.  Perhaps I haven't explained myself too well previously.  Has that helped? 

Alec.
		
Click to expand...

So you hit the dog ( violence)to make it compliant and you think that the dog then respects you  ?  The dog is scared of the consequences, so you have a relationship based on violence, not sure how you can spin it any other way !

 I read your post a while back on your treatment for your dog around chickens and was horrified.  I am not sure why in general you think you have to be so hard on your dogs get to them to behave.

OP, I would move the dog bed from under the table and use a harness and house line to get him out of the bed if needed, then reward for coming to you. He is guarding the bed,  outsmart him, don't confront him, that little growl/ snap might be a bite next time.


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## Alec Swan (17 May 2013)

Smith123 said:



			Thank you  what should I do if he hides under the table?
		
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What I would do,  would be to have a lead in my hand,  go to the door as if you're going out for a walk,  call him and when he stands at the door,  pop the lead on him,  walk him back in to the room,  do some simple obedience work,  sit,  lie down,  that sort of thing,  then take him out,  still on the lead,  and a few minutes later,  back into what I assume is your kitchen.  Take his lead off,  and then send him back to his bed,  with a "Stay there".  

When you want to put a dog's lead on,  NEVER go to the dog,  have the dog come to you.  If you instil a sense of arrogance about your manner,  then he will be more likely to accept a more subservient role,  and as he's already shown himself to be a trifle ignorant,  then taking him down a peg or two,  wont do any harm.  With your current progress,  that's the approach that I'd take.

Alec.


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## Alec Swan (17 May 2013)

Teaselmeg said:



			So you hit the dog ( violence)to make it compliant and you think that the dog then respects you  ?  The dog is scared of the consequences, so you have a relationship based on violence, not sure how you can spin it any other way !

........
		
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Teaselmeg,  you seem determined in that you wont listen.  Fine by me.

Alec.


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## Dry Rot (18 May 2013)

lexiedhb said:



			Becasue hitting a dog makes you have such a great rapport????? 

Click to expand...

I suspect I've had a greater rapport with a greater number of dogs than you've had hot dinners!


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## Dry Rot (18 May 2013)

Smith123 said:



			Thanks for the replies everyone, I really interesting debate.

An update on today, from getting up I have taken a no nonsense attitude to him today. Sitting, letting me through doors first, waiting, stepping back etc etc...

He gas been perfect apart from one little incident, he was in his bed under the table and I wanted him to get up to go out for a wee. I called and he just looked at me, normally my mum would then go and get him a treat to get him up, but I didn't want to do that. I quietly went to get him up with my hand and he did a tiny argumentative snap( he never actually gets my hand its more of a threat' I straight away pulled his bed and tipped him out, shouted at him and he sat there very submissively. He went out came back in and I ignored him until he came and sat by me. After this he has been very quiet and submissive tonight!! I seem to be understanding him a bit more now...
		
Click to expand...

Excellent!  Respect often isn't about aggression or blows but administering a short sharp shock (which is what I said in my previous post that some did not bother to read properly). A good teacher in the classroom gains respect in much the same way.

I took an old bitch and a few pups down the field for a walk. One of the kennel maids came too. The pups were annoying the bitch and I knew what would happen next but said nothing. Suddenly, the bitch spun round and flattened one of the pups which let out horrendous screams.

The girl rushed up to the pup, reassuring it, muttering about the nasty bitch. I told her to calm down and examine the pup. Was it cut? Was it bleeding? Was there even any saliva on it as there must be if the bitch had bitten it? Of course, there was none.

The pup had pushed the boundaries of what is acceptable in the social hierarchy of dogs and had been quickly and firmly put in it's place. Strangely, the bitch did not march the pup off to "time out" or even threaten to stop it's pocket money.... Dogs don't do that, but they are experts at the short sharp shock and once respect is established you may be sure the pup would pay attention to the slightest growl or aggressive look.

Somehow I think that will be another wasted post. There  is none so blind as those who will not see.


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## Teaselmeg (18 May 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			Teaselmeg,  you seem determined in that you wont listen.  Fine by me.

Alec.
		
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I understand perfetly what you are trying to justify.

We now live in a quick fix society, a lot of people just look on the internet for the quickest way to 'fix' the problem ( not getting at you OP).  If you advocate giving the dog a good hiding/a quick slap/a good jerk on the lead they will take you literally and think that is the way to train your dog.  Any advice given on AAD is based on what is written, not with the dog in front of you, so we have to be very careful what we advise.

I always find it odd that people on this forum, most of whom have horses, will call in the vet or trainer if they have a problem with their horse, but don't think the same way when it comes to their dog.


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## Booboos (18 May 2013)

Alec Swan said:



_"Respect is a positive feeling of esteem or deference for a person or other entity (such as a nation or a religion), and also specific actions and conduct representative of that esteem...."_

If we accept that an "other entity" could be a dog,  I'm reliant upon Wiki for that one!  

Discarding any attempts at anthropomorphism,  if we consider that young male lions in a pride,  from what I see on the telly,  will show due deference and respect to the pride leaders,  so the word respect,  though not of an entirely ethereal nature,  can be used to describe what in essence is the fear of causing offence.  Respect works for me,  and I suspect,  for others.

Alec.
		
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I am confused now over who shows respect to whom. I thought the dog had to show respect to the human, but if the dog is the 'other entity' then the human has to show respect to the dog. 

Replacing 'respect' with 'esteem' or 'deference' doesn't help as they are also normative concepts only applicable to humans. 

Not to put words in your mouth but I think by 'respect' you mean acceptance of pack hierarchy. A few thoughts come to mind on that. Setting aside that pack hiererchy theory has been abandonned by most ethologists, if we accept it has relevance it's supposed to draw analogies with wolves, not lions (lion pride social interactions are very complex and fundamentally focus on the female lions). In wolf packs you rarely see physical violence, marks of accepting pack leadership include smelling/licking of genitals/anus, ettiquette about peeing and pooing, mouth 'munching' (that weird pacification ritual, not sure what its proper name is), etc none of which are things most human owners would want to be doing with their dogs. Actual physical violence is very rare in wolf packs, although there is waht is called ritual bluffing (psoturing and mock fighting following very exact rules). When there is actual violence it is extreme and often leads to death or expulsion from the group. Finally leader wolves do not issue commands in any way compatible with what we need from pet dogs, rather they chose where the pack goes and they get to have sex with the leader female (again fairly useless for human training purposes!).

So even if we are to accept that dog learning follows wolf learning and if we accept a dominance theory of establishing this notion of 'respect', what you are suggesting in terms of using physical violence is not justified by what we know about wolves.


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## Dry Rot (18 May 2013)

Teaselmeg said:



			I understand perfetly what you are trying to justify.

We now live in a quick fix society, a lot of people just look on the internet for the quickest way to 'fix' the problem ( not getting at you OP).  If you advocate giving the dog a good hiding/a quick slap/a good jerk on the lead they will take you literally and think that is the way to train your dog.  Any advice given on AAD is based on what is written, not with the dog in front of you, so we have to be very careful what we advise.

I always find it odd that people on this forum, most of whom have horses, will call in the vet or trainer if they have a problem with their horse, but don't think the same way when it comes to their dog.
		
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Are you a trainer/canine behaviourist by any chance??

Personally, I think people on the whole have more sense. The traditional way to counter ignorance is through education. That is not achieved by withholding information for fear it might be misinterpreted but by logical reasoned discussion.

You say, "If you advocate giving the dog a good hiding/a quick slap/a good jerk on the lead they will take you literally and think that is the way to train your dog".

Stupidity will always be with us and I know of no cure! Sometimes a quick slap *is* quickest way of curing an aggressive dog, especially if done when the problem is first recognised and before the vice has become established. That is a matter of judgement. With some dogs, a sharp loud "NO!" would be sufficient. The bitch with the pups applied a fake attack and the shock of that was enough to instill instant respect.

Perhaps if respect had been instilled earlier enough, there would be fewer children out there with half their faces missing because some one thought the answer to permanently curing an aggressive pit bull type or Jack Russell was "time out" or diverting it's attention with treats. 

Going back to my earlier post, how do you deal with a nipping colt? Simply by reacting in a way that the colt finds unproductive. Personally, I stick a well aimed finger up a nostril! Shocking! Cruel! But it works and I don't get bitten any more. Maybe I should try time out....


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## Dobiegirl (18 May 2013)

Im glad the op is going to see a trainer, just hope its a good one and someone like Cayla. Its seems that things are improving though which is good.

There does seem to be a lot of point scoring on this thread and its Traditional versus modern methods. There is more than one way to skin a cat and I use a mixture of both methods to train my dogs. Its so easy to set yourself up for a bite using the wrong methods that is why its so difficult giving advice over the internet without seeing the dog and handler in front of you.


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## Clodagh (18 May 2013)

I think it is a good and interesting debate - I am a dog smacker when I feel it is needed, and I smack my horses too, again, if they need it.
OP I think tipping him off his bed is a good idea, there was someone on here who had a dog that claimed the sofa and she tipped it over to get him off, worked every time!
Good luck with him, sounds like you have made real progress already.


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## stargirl88 (18 May 2013)

I remember a trainer once said to me about moving dogs off of sofas etc - not to tip them off, because it was harsh


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## stargirl88 (18 May 2013)

Oops didnt finish! Not to tip them off or handle them - but to walk into another room and rustle some paper or something interesting so the dog gets off (!) Its no surprise sometimes that trainers who use "force-free" methods are called soft.....!


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## Dobiegirl (18 May 2013)

Clodagh said:



			I think it is a good and interesting debate - OP I think tipping him off his bed is a good idea, there was someone on here who had a dog that claimed the sofa and she tipped it over to get him off, worked every time!
Good luck with him, sounds like you have made real progress already.
		
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That was me Clodagh, the dog in question was a male 18month Dobe I had just taken as a rescue. He had bitten his previous owners and had been returned  to the breeder who gave him to me. Fred was as fat as a house had no  discipline and had no bounderies. I had him a day when he jumped on the sofa and I told him to get off, he just sat there and growled at me, Im sure I could have enticed him off with a treat but felt pretty certain it wouldnt cure him and there would be a next time. So I just went behind the sofa and tipped it up at the same time shouting get to your bed, which he did. Being an intelligent dog he never did that again.

He was a very challenging dog and we had lots of issues which we overcame and he became my dog of a lifetime, sadly I lost him age 4yrs old to Lepto, I will never find another like him.


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## CAYLA (18 May 2013)

Tipping is fine (imo), I also used the method when a spaniel pup was testing the owner (each time she tried to get her off the chair) she snacked her, I simply demonstrated walking behind the chair and tipping it forward with an "off" (obs easier than with a settee) it took 3 times to see the never never get on the chair again as when she attempted and I said "off", she slinked to her own bed (so the owner was left with this new rotuine), (she (the dog) looked at me as if to say) "what the!" no one ever did this before, i was expecting to beable to use my teeth to get you to back off"
I have to admit I don't tackle issues the way I instruct owners to (but I always demonstrate and explain more than indepthy why I use a method/why I advise it and why the dog is most likely displaying the behaviour), as suggested here by S88... already some people are not capable of the firmer methods (im not against firm handling AT ALL!!) we are talking about an animal here!!, an animal where if the dangerous behaviour gets out of hand (the dog is dead/or passed to rescue) however it needs to be demonstrated, just like I would never advise a check chain but would demonstate how they work and of late I used one for safely and it's asved the dogs life) can explain if needed (if I felt one where needed I will advise one is used).
As DG said, there is more than one way to skin a cat, so be prepared to vary your methods to the dog in question, not all dogs are reward responsive in regard to treats/toys and some are more hard wired than others so need a firm consistant hand (which some people are just not cut out for) 

Op you changed your way of handling and awoken your dogs repsonse! I personally would have done the same or as Alec said, (get a lead and walk away) and get the dog to move it's butt and follow you) I would not put a harness or long line on in the house (but each to their own) can you take the bed out from under the table and block it off to stop him using it as (his hidey hole and expose him to the open) to take away giving him the upper hand to invite a challenge of snacking/ not to mention creating a game and seeking attention (game of chase me), I don't think he is guarding the bed at all, he just sees it as a place to scarper where others (often back off from him)) (leaving him to do as he pleases
Yu can indeed swap what he steals for a reward (but recall him to you0 never go to him, but try and keep things out of his reach rather than having to treat him a million times to get stuff he stole (give him his own) goodies, teach him what his an whats not.
Hopefully your newer firmer stance can be carried on by your mam (but this is where the issue may begin)


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## Teaselmeg (18 May 2013)

I am not a dog trainer or a behaviourist, but I do help some friends who are. They deal with problem dogs of all shapes and sizes. They have a variety of problems -  they lack social skills or are fearful or are owned by people who got the dog because they liked how it looked and didnt bother to look into the breed traits ( pointer living in London etc) and now their cute puppy is an adolescent yob. I also have a rescue lad who has been challenging to say the least and this has lead me to look into different methods of dog training to help him. 

Stargirl 88 - I have used the tip off method ( I have no problem with doing that) and also called the dog off and rewarded.  If a dog is guarding the sofa then I would go back to basics and teach an 'on the sofa' and then 'off the sofa' go it get it used to coming off the sofa when requested.

Dryrot - a quick slap can never be the quickest way to 'cure' an aggressive dog. How do you know it is being aggressive ? It could be very scared, the majority of 'aggressive' dogs are actually fearful. So if the dog is fearful and you hit it for being scared, does the dog understand why you have just done that ? No, he just knows that when he is scared you might also hit him !  We need to treat them as dogs, understand more about why they are doing what they are doing,  rather than surpressing the behaviour using adversive methods. We have invited them to share our lives, why make their lives miserable just because they don't understand what we are asking them to do ?

And if I had a colt that I was having problems with, I would get a trainer in to help me!

OP, I am sorry we are hijacking your thread, I hope you have had a better day with your dog.


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## Alec Swan (18 May 2013)

Teaselmeg said:



			I am not a dog trainer or a behaviourist, but I do help some friends who are. .......
		
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There's a world of difference between "watching" and "doing".  I've no wish to be unkind,  but you may one day gain enough experience,  to see the folly of your arguments.  It's better to be quiet and be thought a fool,  than to persevere,  and prove the point,  beyond doubt.

Alec.


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## Smith123 (18 May 2013)

Thanks everyone, had another good day with the dog. He has been as good as gold (so far!) no snapping at all. Had one little moment when I wanted him to go out and he didn't want to, I called him he came into the room (a large room) but didn't want to go out as it was raining. He stood about 3 metres from me and would come to me. What should I do in the situation as the way my mum would get him is to treat him but I didn't want to do that as that is what he wanted!

This is what i did, it was probably wrong!!

I went to get him and he started running around the sofas(thinking it was fun) I called him agAin and he just looked at me as if to say what are you going to do now! I put the other dogs out and the just quietly followed him round the room, every time he stopped I pushed him on to gain control, I don't think he thought it was a game as he was not looking like he enjoyed it! After a while I stopped, he stopped and I made him sit, down, stay etc and he was very submissive(put his ead on the floor and just looked at me) he then went outside no problem when I told him. I didn't use any physical contact as he was quite jumpy and tail between legs wondering why I was making him go round and round the room! 

Was this completely the wrong thing to do?!


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## Teaselmeg (18 May 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			There's a world of difference between "watching" and "doing".  I've no wish to be unkind,  but you may one day gain enough experience,  to see the folly of your arguments.  It's better to be quiet and be thought a fool,  than to persevere,  and prove the point,  beyond doubt.

Alec.
		
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And you are a qualified dog trainer /behaviourist ?  You strike me as someone who has trained many of your own dogs over a lot of years, rather than someone who trains for a living. Just because I have chosen to query your 'training' methods Alec, there is no need to be so condescending.


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## Alec Swan (18 May 2013)

You're winning every battle.  Win enough battles,  and the war will be over! 

Well done!

Alec.


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## gunnergundog (18 May 2013)

Teaselmeg said:



			And you are a qualified dog trainer /behaviourist ?  You strike me as someone who has trained many of your own dogs over a lot of years, rather than someone who trains for a living. .
		
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Unfortunately, there are many trainers/behaviourists who train for a living and who have NOT trained that many dogs that they have had to live with themselves for any sustained period of time;  however they know a lot of theory and put letters after their name!


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## Alec Swan (18 May 2013)

Teaselmeg said:



			And you are a qualified dog trainer /behaviourist ?  You strike me as someone who has trained many of your own dogs over a lot of years, rather than someone who trains for a living. Just because I have chosen to query your 'training' methods Alec, there is no need to be so condescending.
		
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Query by all means,  but telling Dry Rot that effectively,  he doesn't know what he's talking about,  isn't just insulting to him,  but considering that he's competed dogs at International level,  it says little for you.

If being condescending has made you think,  then perhaps it was the right tack.  If you don't understand D_R's point,  then ask.  He's a most amenable man,  and will explain to you his reasoning.

Me?  I've seen so many idiots who've read a book or two,  perhaps trained a dog,  and suddenly set themselves up as a "Behaviourist-Trainer",  that I don't do labels.  I've trained a dog or two over the years,  I've made a great many mistakes,  though as I age,  those mistakes are becoming less,  hopefully!

Alec.


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## CorvusCorax (18 May 2013)

If anyone is training me, I like to see how their own dogs behave. 

I'd rather a trainer who trains to that individual dog's character, than the many, many trainers who pick and choose dogs to own or to work with that suit their individual training style, the ones who ask handlers with dogs that they can't fit into their training style to leave, the ones who say the owners aren't doing it right, the ones who keep the owners coming back with never any positive results because the training will never suit the dog. Those are the ones who are selling a lie.

A trainer who says no dog ever needs compulsion, or aversion, is also selling a lie IMO.


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## stargirl88 (18 May 2013)

Smith123 - your method sounds as though you've had a horse that wont be caught before


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## Smith123 (18 May 2013)

stargirl88 said:



			Smith123 - your method sounds as though you've had a horse that wont be caught before 

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Hahaha yep!


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## Booboos (18 May 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			There's a world of difference between "watching" and "doing".  I've no wish to be unkind,  but you may one day gain enough experience,  to see the folly of your arguments.  It's better to be quiet and be thought a fool,  than to persevere,  and prove the point,  beyond doubt.

Alec.
		
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I am not a trainer either but all the trainers I have worked with have managed to deal with seriously problem dogs (i.e. helping private clients and helping large shelters) with hands off, positive reinforcement techniques, while running large obedience and fun classes and having their own well behaved dogs doing obedience, agility, clicker fun, etc. It's certainly possible to deal with serious behaviours with positive techniques without ever hiting.


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## Alec Swan (18 May 2013)

CaveCanem said:



			.......

I'd rather a trainer who trains to that individual dog's character, than the many, many trainers who pick and choose dogs to own or to work with that suit their individual training style, ........
		
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Guilty,  I'm afraid to say,  though I'm not alone it seems!  Those who can turn their hand to any dog,  of any disposition,  would be rare I'd have thought.  I've never trained people,  and wouldn't.  I'm quite certain that this doesn't apply to all those who train the handler,  but I've stood on the sidelines a few times and watched,  and I've been staggered at some of the advice,  and in my defence,  I've read of those on here,  who've also been a little less than impressed with their "trainer".  

It was an interesting point which was raised by someone earlier,  in that with horses,  we go to trainers,  so why not with dogs,  and I suspect that for reasons that I don't entirely understand,  the Yogi Briesners of the canine world,  are a bit thin on the ground.  There will be some excellent Handler-Trainers,  I feel sure,  but except for specialist sport dogs,  I suspect that there are few who are truly competent.

Alec.


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## CorvusCorax (18 May 2013)

Yes but you are not selling yourself as a dog trainer or charging for it, I assume?

I've no issue with those who pick and choose, as long as they are honest about it from the start. Not those who say they can fix all sorts of issues, when of course they mean they can only solve issues in a particular kind of dog.


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## MurphysMinder (18 May 2013)

gunnergundog said:



			Unfortunately, there are many trainers/behaviourists who train for a living and who have NOT trained that many dogs that they have had to live with themselves for any sustained period of time;  however they know a lot of theory and put letters after their name! 

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This is very true.  There is someone local to me who runs training classes, does individual tuition, I think they make a fairly decent living out of it but cannot deal with problem dogs.    She tries for a bit and then gives up and if they are lucky the owner finds a better trainer, in some cases the dog is rehomed .

I have kept out of this debate, but I trained dogs when it was all compulsion and have to admit to being less than complimentary about "new fangled ideas" when things turned round and training involved treats, clickers etc.  But I have learned that like everything having an open mind is the best way to move forward, I do use mainly reward training now, but do not have a problem with using a smack, a shake or on occasions a pinch collar.  Its horses for courses and the important thing is to find what works to make a dog that listens to me and is happy to do as I ask.


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## {97702} (18 May 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			It's better to be quiet and be thought a fool,  than to persevere,  and prove the point,  beyond doubt.

Alec.
		
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I guess I am the only one who sees the irony of this comment.....


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## Alec Swan (18 May 2013)

Picklenash said:



			I guess I am the only one who sees the irony of this comment.....

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I was aware of what I wrote,  and was prepared for sniping from those with nothing constructive to add.  I also have sufficient confidence in my argument,  to accept the attempts of others to score points.

Well done,  that was most observant of you. 

Alec.


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## {97702} (18 May 2013)

I have plenty of constructive advice to offer the OP, but I felt there were quite enough people already doing so on this thread  

As for scoring points - who needs to?


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## Booboos (18 May 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			It was an interesting point which was raised by someone earlier,  in that with horses,  we go to trainers,  so why not with dogs,  and I suspect that for reasons that I don't entirely understand,  the Yogi Briesners of the canine world,  are a bit thin on the ground.  Alec.
		
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In the world of operant conditioning John Fisher, Ian Dunbar and Karen Pryor (to name but a few) all spring to mind immediately so I don't think you need to look far to find good trainers who have had an impact on a huge number of aspects of dog training. Having said that, of course it is true that every single theory and approach can suffer at the hands of people who do not understand it or apply it correctly. Even then though positive reinforcement gets my preference because I would much rather people incorrectly handed out treats to their dogs than that they would incorrectly hand out slaps, tugs on the choke collar or buzzes from the electronic collar.


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## PucciNPoni (18 May 2013)

Booboos said:



			positive reinforcement gets my preference because I would much rather people incorrectly handed out treats to their dogs than that they would incorrectly hand out slaps, tugs on the choke collar or buzzes from the electronic collar.
		
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I don't particularly like heavy handed tactics, I do find that handing out treats inappropriately is almost worse because they can in fact be rewarding for the unwanted behaviour.  I see it all the time - people using "bribes" and in fact the timing is so poor that dog thinks that the "bad thing" is actually the "good thing" and continues doing it...expecting and getting the reward.


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## stargirl88 (18 May 2013)

Booboos - thats that idea I was poorly trying to get across earlier. Poorly timed click/treat is better than a poorly timed correction, and it's something that can be easily developed, which is why I said it was more user-friendly method!


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## Teaselmeg (18 May 2013)

Booboos said:



			In the world of operant conditioning John Fisher, Ian Dunbar and Karen Pryor (to name but a few) all spring to mind immediately so I don't think you need to look far to find good trainers who have had an impact on a huge number of aspects of dog training. Having said that, of course it is true that every single theory and approach can suffer at the hands of people who do not understand it or apply it correctly. Even then though positive reinforcement gets my preference because I would much rather people incorrectly handed out treats to their dogs than that they would incorrectly hand out slaps, tugs on the choke collar or buzzes from the electronic collar.
		
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THIS ^^^

I agree that there are a lot trainers out there who know the theory, but are not able to think outside the box, so the moment the dog starts to kick off, they are kicked out.  If you are advertising yourself as a dog trainer, you should be able to help with all types of dogs and if you can't,  then find someone for the client who can, not just banish them from your class.


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## Teaselmeg (18 May 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			There's a world of difference between "watching" and "doing".  I've no wish to be unkind,  but you may one day gain enough experience,  to see the folly of your arguments.  It's better to be quiet and be thought a fool,  than to persevere,  and prove the point,  beyond doubt.

Alec.
		
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Oh and did I say I just watched, don't believe I did.  35 years of owning dogs, 10 years of working with problem dogs and throw in training my own and other dogs for TV and film work might mean I have a more than average understanding of dog training.  15 years ago I used to think Barbara Woodhouse was a good trainer and that to make a dog sit you needed to yank it on a choke chain until it did. But I chose to look into positive methods and learn about more about dog behaviour and I realised that there was a much better, humane way of dog training, which is just as effective, you should try it Alec


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## Alec Swan (18 May 2013)

PucciNPoni said:



			I don't particularly like heavy handed tactics, I do find that handing out treats inappropriately is almost worse because they can in fact be rewarding for the unwanted behaviour.  I see it all the time - people using "bribes" and in fact the timing is so poor that dog thinks that the "bad thing" is actually the "good thing" and continues doing it...expecting and getting the reward.
		
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I agree with you.  I feel certain that with dogs other than the painfully shy,  an inappropriate harsh word is forgotten far sooner than the confusion of an ill-deserved reward,  and the subsequent correction.

Someone previously suggested that there were systems which are in place which are Ancient and Modern.  Actually,  both systems are steeped in time and presumably there are those who find success with one,  rather than the other.  I for one,  am convinced that food rewards are actually a retrograde step in that they encourage a dog to be selfish and think of itself,  rather than working with its handler.  

Alec.


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## CAYLA (18 May 2013)

gunnergundog said:



			Unfortunately, there are many trainers/behaviourists who train for a living and who have NOT trained that many dogs that they have had to live with themselves for any sustained period of time;  however they know a lot of theory and put letters after their name! 

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This is very true ^^^^^ and by the time they have finished draining folk of money who are still left with an out of control dog and where given franky horrendous and useless advice the dog is then destined for rescue.


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## CAYLA (18 May 2013)

CaveCanem said:



			If anyone is training me, I like to see how their own dogs behave. 

I'd rather a trainer who trains to that individual dog's character, than the many, many trainers who pick and choose dogs to own or to work with that suit their individual training style, the ones who ask handlers with dogs that they can't fit into their training style to leave, the ones who say the owners aren't doing it right, the ones who keep the owners coming back with never any positive results because the training will never suit the dog. Those are the ones who are selling a lie.

A trainer who says no dog ever needs compulsion, or aversion, is also selling a lie IMO.
		
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And this^^^ I want to see the trainers dog/s behaving as I would eventually want mine too after working with said trainer (if handler/owner puts in the work), and this is why im proud to pluck any of my dogs from my pack and use them or all if need be and im happy to be complimented about their (behaviour)
I even took a boarding dog tonight to work with a dog aggressive rottie (I never put her in harms way) she was just a (walk by stooge) and we stooged my lurcher being off lead and approaching said rottie (to test a response to a dog wondering and approaching with no owner) "yes I cover stupid scenarios" but hey, (they need to be covered) esp with this monsterous dog, as he was a giant of a rottie with a little owner. 
And the (picking and choosing is frustrating) you either train all behaviourand deal with all breeds or state you are incapable and chose without ripping eye balls out and coming back for the sockets!! leaving the owner high and dry.
There are some fab trainers out there but there are also some bloody unscrupulous ones (I wont lie it does worry me)


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## stargirl88 (18 May 2013)

Alec, it doesnt teach the dog how to be selfish. Clicker training (for example) is a fabulous communication tool, and the stuff you can teach you dog is endless! The problem starts when you RELY on food lure , and don't phase them out properly. Which is where many go wrong, and claim its all garbage!

It reinforces the dogs enjoyment of working with its handler, subsequently strengthening the bond, not removing it.

I think you should go on a little clicker course


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## CAYLA (18 May 2013)

Smith123 said:



			Thanks everyone, had another good day with the dog. He has been as good as gold (so far!) no snapping at all. Had one little moment when I wanted him to go out and he didn't want to, I called him he came into the room (a large room) but didn't want to go out as it was raining. He stood about 3 metres from me and would come to me. What should I do in the situation as the way my mum would get him is to treat him but I didn't want to do that as that is what he wanted!

This is what i did, it was probably wrong!!

I went to get him and he started running around the sofas(thinking it was fun) I called him agAin and he just looked at me as if to say what are you going to do now! I put the other dogs out and the just quietly followed him round the room, every time he stopped I pushed him on to gain control, I don't think he thought it was a game as he was not looking like he enjoyed it! After a while I stopped, he stopped and I made him sit, down, stay etc and he was very submissive(put his ead on the floor and just looked at me) he then went outside no problem when I told him. I didn't use any physical contact as he was quite jumpy and tail between legs wondering why I was making him go round and round the room! 

Was this completely the wrong thing to do?!
		
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Does he have an aversion to going out? was this to get him to go to the toilet and you ended up having to try and get hold of him to do so?


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## CAYLA (18 May 2013)

stargirl88 said:



			Alec, it doesnt teach the dog how to be selfish. Clicker training (for example) is a fabulous communication tool, and the stuff you can teach you dog is endless! The problem starts when you RELY on food lure , and don't phase them out properly. Which is where many go wrong, and claim its all garbage!

It reinforces the dogs enjoyment of working with its handler, subsequently strengthening the bond, not removing it.

I think you should go on a little clicker course 

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Nice one Lol, I love the last bit (go on Alec) you will LURVE IT


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## Smith123 (18 May 2013)

CAYLA said:



			Does he have an aversion to going out? was this to get him to go to the toilet and you ended up having to try and get hold of him to do so?
		
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He loves going out normally just didn't want to this time! Did I do completely the wrong thing?!


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## CAYLA (18 May 2013)

Smith123 said:



			He loves going out normally just didn't want to this time! Did I do completely the wrong thing?!
		
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Well i personally would not go get him as I expect a dog to come when called, so maybe in these instances could you work on calling him and rewarding him, dont get me wrong the snacking would be met with firmness by me! but getting him to come to you may be best done with a positive (primula cheese at the ready) and a command, and eventually take the primula out and just use the command but (no chasing him) as it's his way of creating a game/attention and then leads to snapping and (getting his was) the treats I would only use short term and he should pick it up quick. So name "nice high picked tone" and when he comes suck of primula (then maybe go to the back door) and name/squirt (throw handful of tib bits out) and command "wee wee", so you can get him rushing for the door at toilet time instead of the commotion and rigmarole you are having to go through now.


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## Alec Swan (18 May 2013)

stargirl88 said:



			.......Clicker training (for example) is a fabulous communication tool, and the stuff you can teach you dog is endless! .......
		
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Yes,  I'm sure that it is,  and so's the human voice. 

I'm sure that clicker training will one day be used in every Nationals,  regardless of the discipline! 

I've a friend,  of whom I'm very fond,  she's an HHOer,  and she has the most wonderful little terrier sort of thing.  She has a little bag of treats and her clicker,  and when she clicks,  so short arse comes running for her treat.  The strange thing is that when I call her,  she comes back back even faster,  not because of any skill on my part,  but simply because I like her,  and she likes me.  

I'll give your clicker course some thought! 

Alec.


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## Dobiegirl (18 May 2013)

You dont have to use a clicker, you can use your voice, click with your tongue like a horse, or a very positive yes when the dog does what you want. The thing with a clicker is its always the same unlike the voice.

Ive used it for tricks mainly, when they are broken down into steps, the dog performs what you want, you then click and treat and then build it into what you want. You phase the treats out once the dog does what you want on command, it is not non stop treats because that is self defeating.

Ive used it on some dogs but not all, its horses for courses.


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## SadKen (19 May 2013)

Interesting debate! OP I think most of what I'd suggest has been covered, but the only thing I would add is that discipline can come very effectively from walking. My big GSD was a nightmare as a young dog (not aggressive, but destructive). I got him a dog backpack and put weights in, and he walked in that, every day, an hour a day or more at the weekend. The difference after a couple of weeks was quite impressive. He loved to have a job, and to work for a reward. He carried his own water, treats and poo bags on long walks. People also reacted really nicely to him which was a big plus. And best of all, it wore him out! When we got home I'd do some training because he was in the right frame of mind for it. Then he'd pretty much sleep! Destruction stopped. My young GSD wears it now, he couldn't be prouder of himself while wearing it. EBay do cheap ones. Good luck with whichever method you go with!


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## CAYLA (20 May 2013)

As SadKen said, the paniers/backpacks are good for gettig that excess energy off, my pointer used to wear on and the pointer im now working with has one (sand is good to pack them with, you a get a good equal weight on each side and comfortable to carry to.

Also aswell as (off lead hooning) structured lead walks to teach good lead manners and teach not all walks mean hooning around.


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## FairyLights (20 May 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			Para 1.  Never ignore such behaviour.  Your puppy is putting you in your place,  and succeeding by the sound of it.  Wallop the bloody thing,  and mean it!

Para 2.  Rewards?  That young man is getting the better of you,  and if you continue to bribe him,  rather than insist upon compliance,  you're going to end up with well entrenched and difficult to erase,  problems.

Alec.
		
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Very well said


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## Booboos (20 May 2013)

PucciNPoni said:



			I don't particularly like heavy handed tactics, I do find that handing out treats inappropriately is almost worse because they can in fact be rewarding for the unwanted behaviour.  I see it all the time - people using "bribes" and in fact the timing is so poor that dog thinks that the "bad thing" is actually the "good thing" and continues doing it...expecting and getting the reward.
		
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I don't see how rewarding the wrong behaviour is worse than punishing the wrong behaviour to be honest. Getting it wrong is always a problem, but if we accept that people will get it wrong (because we are fallible) I'd rather give a treat for the wrong thing than give a slap (or electric collar zap, or choke chain tug) for the wrong thing.

Alec: your recommendation was not for a harsh word, it was for a wallop (and mean it). Associations, regardless of whether they are positive or negative, can be made really quickly (sometimes as quickly as 2 or 3 repetitions) - all trainers rely on that. 

Regarding communicating with the human voice you can certainly do that. There is nothing magical about the click, you can use any noise or word to mark the behaviour. Similarly with rewards, the terrier that likes you, comes to you for a smile, or a pat; food is not the only reward, it's just a really high value reward which makes it very useful for most dogs.

Regarding the bribery issue, you cannot bribe someone who has already done the behaviour. A 'lure and reward' training technique is conceivably a bribe based system as you present the reward and use it to elicit the behaviour. In clicker you do not elicit the behaviour with the food, you re-inforce it.

So bribe goes: food, behaviour, reward
Positive reinforcement: behaviour, marker, reward


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## Alec Swan (20 May 2013)

Booboos said:



			I don't see how rewarding the wrong behaviour is worse than punishing the wrong behaviour to be honest. Getting it wrong is always a problem, but if we accept that people will get it wrong (because we are fallible) I'd rather give a treat for the wrong thing than give a slap (or electric collar zap, or choke chain tug) for the wrong thing.

.......
		
Click to expand...

Considering your opening sentence,  was that a typing error?  If you're serious and you're happy to reward the "Wrong behaviour" (though I'm not too sure what you mean by that),  at what point and how,  do you correct the errors?

This is the last time that I'm going to bother to explain about chastising a dog.  Here we go;

If a dog doesn't understand a command,  or is confused,  or fearful or for what ever reason,  it's trying to comply with the handlers wishes,  but the penny hasn't dropped,  then the handler who raises his voice,  or worse,  wallops a dog,  is a fool.  

If a dog doesn't understand what's required of it,  then the handler has either taken short cuts,  or progressed faster than the dog can cope with.  Dogs learn by an association with action and reaction,  and except in the rarest of animals,  they learn by repetition.  Dogs,  _"generally"_,  do not have the quality of Intelligence,  they don't _"generally"_ have the power of reason and so they learn in very basic and bite sized lessons,  again by the thought process of cause and effect.

Not always,  but often,  when we rear a puppy,  then for the first few months,  life's a game for them.  Discipline is kept to a minimum.  Over disciplined puppies,  like children,  will get to the stage of being teenagers,  and they will rebel.  It's better to allow them liberties as puppies,  so that when we start to ask for,  and then insist upon compliance,  they have the option to listen,  or to ignore us.  Generally they will ignore us,  and as we apply more pressure,  "Sit and Stay" for instance,  so the more determined and often from a work viewpoint,  the better dogs,  will kick over the traces,  and put up resistance.

We've now reached the stage where we (the trainers),  need to assert our authority.  When the puppy has been replaced in the sitting position, two or three times,  and when it understands what we want,  but chooses to ignore us,  THEN,  we are in a position where a scruffing and a grumble will,  if the puppy still chooses not to listen,  be followed by a good wallop.  Generally the scruffing is enough,  but with the more determined,  Round 2 comes in to play,  and bare in mind that they've never had a hand raised to them,  it's generally a serious awakening.  For the next couple of months,  and on occasion,  the puppy may decide that once again,  it knows best,  and once again,  it learns the facts of life.  

I've had many,  many puppies who I've never raised a hand to,  but strangely,  the most useful dogs have always been those who were the most wilful as puppies.

Then we have another type of dog.  We have the OP's bloody Damnation!  He's a young dog,  and he fancies himself.  The OP has neatly found a way around it,  it seems,  but a youngster that snaps at me,  and means it,  even for fear,  will be treated as an adult dog will treat it.  When I say "Mean it",  I mean just that.  A wallop has to convey displeasure,  and a refusal to tolerate the dogs behaviour.  No young dog will learn what's wanted,  unless we are clear and unequivical in our deliverance,  so how you can explain the sense of rewarding unwanted behaviour,  is beyond me,  as all that you achieve is that you install confusion,  which because of mixed messages,  is how the OP's dog ended up,  as he was.

Right that's it.  That's the thinking behind my modest achievements,  I'm sure that you wont agree,  but as I'm off to the pub,  it wont really matter!! 

Alec.


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## PucciNPoni (20 May 2013)

Booboos said:



			I don't see how rewarding the wrong behaviour is worse than punishing the wrong behaviour to be honest. Getting it wrong is always a problem, but if we accept that people will get it wrong (because we are fallible) I'd rather give a treat for the wrong thing than give a slap (or electric collar zap, or choke chain tug) for the wrong thing.

Alec: your recommendation was not for a harsh word, it was for a wallop (and mean it). Associations, regardless of whether they are positive or negative, can be made really quickly (sometimes as quickly as 2 or 3 repetitions) - all trainers rely on that. 

Regarding communicating with the human voice you can certainly do that. There is nothing magical about the click, you can use any noise or word to mark the behaviour. Similarly with rewards, the terrier that likes you, comes to you for a smile, or a pat; food is not the only reward, it's just a really high value reward which makes it very useful for most dogs.

Regarding the bribery issue, you cannot bribe someone who has already done the behaviour. A 'lure and reward' training technique is conceivably a bribe based system as you present the reward and use it to elicit the behaviour. In clicker you do not elicit the behaviour with the food, you re-inforce it.

So bribe goes: food, behaviour, reward
Positive reinforcement: behaviour, marker, reward
		
Click to expand...

I didn't say it definitely was worse, I said it was almost worse.  Okay, semantics.  I did make it clear that I don't necessarily like / approve of heavy handed tactics - certainly not for all occasions.  

However, I do find that dogs who are rewarded for the wrong behaviours are pretty confused when you then correct them for doing what they were always rewarded for!  My own version of correction tends to be a voice - a firm NO and grabbing the collar if necessary to reinforce their attention on me.  This does not mean I go yanking and dragging dogs around by their collars.  But if a dog is dragging ME around, I do pull back and keep putting the dog in to sit position .  It's not allowed to move until I've said it could, and then it has to stay next to me, not in front of me.  Sometimes this ends up being a longish session because the dog has had it so reinforced that dragging folk round is acceptable.

I recently watched someone with a large dog in an attempt to get the dog to sit still for a moment feed the dog treats.  But the dog was clamboring all over her trying to get the treats, which she was still feeding - not waiting for the dog to sit quietly and THEN say "Good dog" followed up by a treat.  It was demanding the treat rather rudely and she was giving the dog the reward for it!

I couldn't have cared less whether she used a clicker or her voice, so long as the timing was correct and not just willy nilly rewarding the dog for it's jumping all over her (and me, I might add - I was being mugged and even while I was ignoring the dog she was still feeding the treats!)  So in this case, the dog was very  much getting the food before the behaviour because it hadn't actually done the correct thing!


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## Booboos (21 May 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			Considering your opening sentence,  was that a typing error?  If you're serious and you're happy to reward the "Wrong behaviour" (though I'm not too sure what you mean by that),  at what point and how,  do you correct the errors?

.
		
Click to expand...

No it was not a typo but you miss the point. The point was that any training technique will be misapplied by some people (this is true of any technique in any field because people are falible).

When positive reinforcement is misapplied the dog is rewarded for the wrong behaviour - this is bad.

When positive punishment is misapplied the dog is punished for the wrong behaviour - this is worse.

I correct errors by negative punishment (i.e. withdrawal or omission of reward).

I am in complete agreement with you that dogs need to understand what we are asking for, and also that the best way to do that is for behaviours to have consistent consequences, but we disagree over which consequences are more efficacious. For me (and the overwhelming amount of experimental studies in the topic) positive reinforcement is the fastest way of strengthening behaviour.


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## Booboos (21 May 2013)

PucciNPoni said:



			I didn't say it definitely was worse, I said it was almost worse.  Okay, semantics.  I did make it clear that I don't necessarily like / approve of heavy handed tactics - certainly not for all occasions.  

However, I do find that dogs who are rewarded for the wrong behaviours are pretty confused when you then correct them for doing what they were always rewarded for!  My own version of correction tends to be a voice - a firm NO and grabbing the collar if necessary to reinforce their attention on me.  This does not mean I go yanking and dragging dogs around by their collars.  But if a dog is dragging ME around, I do pull back and keep putting the dog in to sit position .  It's not allowed to move until I've said it could, and then it has to stay next to me, not in front of me.  Sometimes this ends up being a longish session because the dog has had it so reinforced that dragging folk round is acceptable.

I recently watched someone with a large dog in an attempt to get the dog to sit still for a moment feed the dog treats.  But the dog was clamboring all over her trying to get the treats, which she was still feeding - not waiting for the dog to sit quietly and THEN say "Good dog" followed up by a treat.  It was demanding the treat rather rudely and she was giving the dog the reward for it!

I couldn't have cared less whether she used a clicker or her voice, so long as the timing was correct and not just willy nilly rewarding the dog for it's jumping all over her (and me, I might add - I was being mugged and even while I was ignoring the dog she was still feeding the treats!)  So in this case, the dog was very  much getting the food before the behaviour because it hadn't actually done the correct thing!
		
Click to expand...

I completely agree with you that dogs can become easily and greatly confused by owners who misapply cues, markers and rewards. I have seen people who week after week were unable to apply the "behaviour - click - treat" sequence. The task wasn't so much to train the dog, but to train the owner and some people failed miserably.

The lady you describe sounds like a case in point. Any decent class that uses food starts with a 'leave it' command and keeps strengthening it until it is very well established. The dogs get it really quickly  - I had a border collie get it on the second repetition. Any further inappropriate behaviour, like jumping up for food, should be discouraged by withdrawing the reward. 

I can't really defend a theory on behalf of people who cannot apply it though!


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## Alec Swan (21 May 2013)

Booboos said:



			.......

For me (and the overwhelming amount of experimental studies in the topic) positive reinforcement is the fastest way of strengthening behaviour.
		
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I'm not in any way trying to belittle what's experimental,  but though they may exist,  I don't know of one Professional,  in any discipline,  who would agree with you.  I'm not going to offer my own experience as a yard stick,  but I know of many Internationally competing dog handlers,  and not one who I know of uses the methods which you ascribe to.  Not one.

Perhaps they're wrong,  and you're right.  I'm not being sarcastic,  but perhaps you could consider that you're contradicting those who earn a living doing,  what you do,  for a hobby. 

Alec.


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## Clodagh (21 May 2013)

I know a lot of gundogs - mainly labs - and most are very well trained, good natured dogs. They work as well, but  they are 'good' dogs anyway. I also know 2 labs, both pets, who have been trained using treats and both are really awful dogs, absolutely no respect for the owners at all and will only do what they are told for a biscuit, never because they want to work with you. To me that is the result of treat based training but I acknowledge it is a very narrow view.


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## PucciNPoni (21 May 2013)

Booboos said:



			I can't really defend a theory on behalf of people who cannot apply it though! 

Click to expand...


ha ha!  

It does tend to be the people that need more training, rather than the dogs


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## Booboos (22 May 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			I'm not in any way trying to belittle what's experimental,  but though they may exist,  I don't know of one Professional,  in any discipline,  who would agree with you.  I'm not going to offer my own experience as a yard stick,  but I know of many Internationally competing dog handlers,  and not one who I know of uses the methods which you ascribe to.  Not one.

Perhaps they're wrong,  and you're right.  I'm not being sarcastic,  but perhaps you could consider that you're contradicting those who earn a living doing,  what you do,  for a hobby. 

Alec.
		
Click to expand...

Which discipline?

The whole of sea mammals training field is exclusively positive reinforcement, indeed I think we'd struggle to find one example of a trainer who faced with a disobedient whale, wades into the pool, wallops her one, scruffs her and drags her back through the hoop to teach her respect.

Dog obedience: I don't know these people personally but by their own accounts and books they use positive reinforcement and win titles at the highest levels of obedience: Morgan Spector, Esther Zimmerman, Deborah Jones, Cecilie Koste, Susan Garrett, etc. If you become a member of this group you can see the list of obedience achievements by its clicker using members 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/clickcompobed/

Canine musical freestyle: is overwhelmingly dominated (see what I did there!) by clicker trainers, as are more amateur oriented events like Clicker Challenge.

OK you might say, let's get serious here, what about Schutzhund clicker champions? Jessy Gabriel (represented the US in World Schutzhund Championships), Rob Dunn (ditto), Doug Calhoon (Schutzhund competitor and judge, also trained 14 police dogs)

I have to take MiniBoo to nursery now but I could go on!


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## galaxy (22 May 2013)

Certainly the agility world is positively trained... In fact it is in the rules that the sort of handling that involves walloping, scruffing or pinning your dog to the floor would end up with you being disciplined.


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## CorvusCorax (22 May 2013)

In Schutzhund (No such thing anymore by the way - it's IPO!!) you cannot touch the dog during any of the exercises. It can lead to instant disqualification.

You will get marks if they dog looks 'happy in it's work' and have points deducted if it looks under pressure.

Not all use clicker training (it is very useful for foundation work) but all use vocal markers. And very few use no compulsion at all. It's not a good idea to allow a dog which has the balls required to take on an adversary, to make all it's own choices in life, IMO.


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## Dobiegirl (22 May 2013)

Im quite old school with my dog training and resisted clicker training thinking it was only useful for Dolphins etc and was practised by fluffy bunnies.

When I had Darcy who was fear aggressive with dogs I went to a clicker trainer and got results.

I now use a combination of training with my dogs and they are happy well rounded dogs so I am happy.

I try to keep an open mind and will give most things in life a try but I also live by the maxim there is no point getting older if you dont get wiser.


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## CorvusCorax (22 May 2013)

It's not all fluffy - Skinner used electrics on rats in his operant conditioning studies after all...


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## Spudlet (22 May 2013)

Philippa Williams uses clicker training with her gundogs - I had a lesson with her recently where we did exactly that. She competes and judges internationally. 

http://www.dogsforlife.co.uk/_resources/files/2012-01-13-Philippa-Williams-Profile.pdf


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