# ADVICE PLEASE ..IM BEEN CONNED !!



## magoodle (19 May 2012)

Hi 
bought a horse outside the ring at a horse sale as horse didnt reach its reserve
horse was being sold as good in traffic ,done everything ie xc,sj and dressage 

vendor delivered it for me and i paid him cash .rode it out on day two and it freaked at a tractor and made a bad noise in its wind 
contacted vendor day 3 ,horse not as described ,shock horror its never done that before !! asked him to take it back,as not as described ....."will ring you back"
day 5 ,horse not sound ,asked vet to come and look ,vet said "horse not right in hocks,wrong in wind and not fit for purpose ....tried to talk to vendor ..no response 
phoned bhs helpline ,misrepresentation they said 
phoned trading standards,"is vendor a dealer ", ummmm no private seller 
phoned equine solicitor ,BUYER BEWARD SHE SAID 
i believe horse was full of bute ,i know vendor ,believed him to be an honest man and took his word that horse was right 
HOW WRONG WAS I ....Contacted him today and tried to have a civil conversation with him ,thought i had resolved matter ,then post came ,letter from him " speak to me through my solicitor "
any advice ?????????????????


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## Ceris Comet (19 May 2012)

Don't do it again . There was a reason the horse didn't sell. 
Do you live under a bridge by any chance ?


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## vieshot (19 May 2012)

If the horse is knackered put him out of his misery and learn from your mistake.


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## burge (19 May 2012)

Conned - No
Naive - Yes


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## dressagelove (19 May 2012)

Ceris Comet said:



			Don't do it again . There was a reason the horse didn't sell. 
Do you live under a bridge by any chance ?
		
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Lol.

Indeed, was rather foolish to buy a horse in such a capacity. Good luck!


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## magoodle (19 May 2012)

horse didnt reach its reserve actually ,and im not a troll ! 

wanted advice not a sarcastic comment thank you


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## Honey08 (19 May 2012)

So you bought a horse at an auction, I'm guessing cheaply if it doesn't reach its reserve,  didn't have it vetted, and are not having problems?  Much as I feel sorry for you, it sounds like a classic of what could go wrong when buying at auction.  Was the horse warranted?  Even if it was, I guess it is not an auction issue as it was a private sale, or I would say contact the auctions.  

I guess your only way forward is to contact his solicitor through one of your own and see what happens..  I wouldn't hold your breath though, and it will cost you even more, as you've already had a lot of advice that have basically said there isn't much to be done...


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## Izzwizz (19 May 2012)

Did you pay a lot for the horse?

Agree with other advice, put it out of it's misery and sorry you have been conned...


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## fizzer (19 May 2012)

I would think as you bought outside the ring you have no warranty, thus no come back.  Very hard lesson learnt, sad situation for the horse.

This sort of story really pees me in that people would rather take a horse to a sale than do right by the animal to make a few quid.


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## ihatework (19 May 2012)

If you buy outside the ring in a car park deal as far as I'm concerned you take your chances, you win some you loose some ...


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## Flame_ (19 May 2012)

Have this horse put down.

Go to a good riding school for a few lessons and at the same time save up a good budget.

When instructor thinks you are ready to get a horse have them go with you to try horses and help you find a suitable one.


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## magoodle (19 May 2012)

Honey08 said:



			So you bought a horse at an auction, I'm guessing cheaply if it doesn't reach its reserve,  didn't have it vetted, and are not having problems?  Much as I feel sorry for you, it sounds like a classic of what could go wrong when buying at auction.  Was the horse warranted?  Even if it was, I guess it is not an auction issue as it was a private sale, or I would say contact the auctions.  

I guess your only way forward is to contact his solicitor through one of your own and see what happens..  I wouldn't hold your breath though, and it will cost you even more, as you've already had a lot of advice that have basically said there isn't much to be done...
		
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horse was warranted if bought through auctionneers,spoke to them ,they have had previous problems with same vendor but obviously didnt stop him selling ..
horse wasnt dirt cheap if fact 3k ,vendor is local to me and knows me through showing etc 
have tried to solve issues as vendor has said nothing wrong with horse ,offered it him back at less than i paid ,thinking as he said it was genuine but no response


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## thatsmygirl (19 May 2012)

OP the wind problem tbh I wouldn't worry about, iv had 2 horses with wind problems and hunted and xc both they aren't that bad honest. What was said about his hocks? I'm guessing he was cheap in which case can u not just give him a bit off time and see how it goes? 
I buy from autions some times and although I have been lucky, you have to be so carefull. Poor horse and I hope u can make some good through this


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## thatsmygirl (19 May 2012)

Didnt u buy outside the ring? In which case u  have no come back. Cor £3000 from a sell ring,I pay £500 max and had some decent horses.


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## Littlelegs (19 May 2012)

Sorry you've been conned, but going after a dodgy private seller when you buy normally is usually difficult, let alone if you bought from an auction car park. Only advice is if the horse can be made good for the same money a decent one would cost, sort it. If not get it pts. Buying private or reputable dealer at a yard next time, take someone experienced & get it vetted. Sales aren't for novice buyers unsupervised.


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## magoodle (19 May 2012)

Flame_ said:



			Have this horse put down.

Go to a good riding school for a few lessons and at the same time save up a good budget.

When instructor thinks you are ready to get a horse have them go with you to try horses and help you find a suitable one.
		
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flame ,putting the horse down !!! are you serious ??

oh and fyi im not 12 ,i dont need lessons ,as have my AI 

THANKS FOR YOUR COMMENTS !!!


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## lannerch (19 May 2012)

Are you really that  naive ? Welcome to the forum


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## LollyDolly (19 May 2012)

Without being awful I think this vendor saw you coming. Just because you paid 3k for a horse doesn't make it worth that, what I am interested in is if you had 3k to spend then why do some dodgy deal!? You could have bought a lovely horse via a legitimate and safe route! Sadly you paid over the odds for a knackered horse, and if you pursue the legal route then bear in mind that it will end up costing you a lot more money too. If I were you I would have the poor horse put down and out of it's misery and learn from your mistake, auctions are no place for novices or the naive.
FYI euthanasing a horse is a painless and quick procedure, it is certainly a lot kinder than keeping an ill animal alive and in pain, and it sounds like this poor horse is suffering.


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## Parker79 (19 May 2012)

I hope your new horse comes right, I assume that you felt some level of trust as you knew the person...I can see how this would happen.

It sounds like you do not have a comeback....what are you doing next? is there any chance of him coming sound?


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## Rowreach (19 May 2012)

magoodle said:



			,i dont need lessons ,as have my AI
		
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Ahahahaha   Sorry for your trouble OP but that comment has made my night


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## Moggy in Manolos (19 May 2012)

I am not sure what to advise, must be a nightmare for you. It is a shame people are not honest, but they are not. I hope you can sort something out.
We bought my late mare outside the ring as she did not make her reserve, I was lucky, had my horse of a lifetime but it is a risk buying at auction, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. I am just very sorry you have lost, must be a nightmare


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## Ceris Comet (19 May 2012)

Apologies OP ....


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## Pentium2912 (19 May 2012)

i know how you feel this recently happened to me, under similar but also different circumstances. please see my post under Lameness in the new posts thingy (sorry im new at this!) i am also looking for help/opinions and not to be slagged off or get called names, or put up with sarcasm. its not a nice place to be!


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## Flame_ (19 May 2012)

magoodle said:



			flame ,putting the horse down !!! are you serious ??  Yes, its got health and behavior problems according to you. If you understandably don't want it, why on earth would anybody else?

oh and fyi im not 12 ,i dont need lessons ,as have my AI  OK sorry. 

THANKS FOR YOUR COMMENTS !!!
		
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 No worries.


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## Parker79 (19 May 2012)

Wow - some harsh replies! does everyone need to start on wine and chocs and cheer up a bit!....no I am not a fluffy bunny (well not really)


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## magoodle (19 May 2012)

Rowreach said:



			Ahahahaha   Sorry for your trouble OP but that comment has made my night 

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Glad ive made your night ,lets hope someone you know never cons you !!


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## Temptation (19 May 2012)

Can't stop laughing at the fact you don't need lessons cause you have your AI!!! Ahhaa


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## Honey08 (19 May 2012)

What exactly did the vet mean by "not right in his hocks"?  Could he be rested, or treated?  I don't see why people are saying "put down"!  We don't even know what the problem is.

I still think it is naive to pay that much outside a sales ring - anyone putting a horse in a sale usually does so for a reason..


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## ELFSBELLS (19 May 2012)

Sorry, the only one I feel for, is the poor horses !


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## Dry Rot (19 May 2012)

The first thing to do is phone the auctioneers and ask where you can see a copy of their Conditions of Sale. I suspect the sale should have been notified to the auctioneers even thought it was "private" but on their premises. At the very least, you could make a problem for the seller -- which I, personally, would do. Cheat me and I will do my very best to (legally) return the favour! You will not gain any brownie points for doing a private sale unless the auctioneer said something like "See the seller" when the horse did not make its reserve and they were notified of the subsequent bargain.

I've a copy of The Institute of Auctioneers and Appraisers in Scotland Conditions of Sale here (probably not a lot different in England) which reads as follows, "Private Sales:.......The usual commission shall be paid on, and these conditions shall apply to, all sales by private bargain whether carried through on or off the premises occupied or used by the auctioneers, or whether effected by the auctioneers or the exposer or the representatives of either, all which sales the seller and buyer shall intimate to and pass through the books of the auctioneer". From that I would assume the Conditions of Sale apply even to a private sale on the auction premises, so I wouldn't give up just yet. It seems there was a warranty. A slim glimmer of hope and not much more I fear, but....


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## Miss L Toe (19 May 2012)

Interesting,  if the deal was done on the auctioneers premises I would have thought that Terms and Conditions of Sale would allow the auctioneer to take his commission and you would have got your warranty. 
£3K is a lot to pay in this day and age, I assume you had details of the horse in the sales catalogue, or was it the kind of sale where horses are not catalogued and not warranted, if so  it is buyer beware, and in your case having an AI actually works against you legally, as you should have known how to buy a horse and avoid these problems.


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## Shantara (19 May 2012)

Can I ask a quick question, what's an AI?

Also, sorry to hear about your troubles OP. I really hope it doesn't come down to putting the horse to sleep


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## magoodle (19 May 2012)

Parker79 said:



			Wow - some harsh replies! does everyone need to start on wine and chocs and cheer up a bit!....no I am not a fluffy bunny (well not really)
		
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Thank you parker79 i came on here for some advice from people i thought would understand ,thank you for your polite comments 

FOR THE OTHER KIND POSTERS WHO RECOMMEND PUTTING THE HORSE"OUT OF ITS MISERY "Horse is not in screaming agony ,just not fit for what i bought it for


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## Littlelegs (19 May 2012)

Nah- ai is assistant instructor.


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## ILuvCowparsely (19 May 2012)

<<<< is an AI since 1981  (trained for my II  decided not to take it)




gosh some people are so rude.

So OP took the risk and bought in an auction.

 Yes you run the risk of it being buted up to the eyeball. I have seen it at Southhall .


 OP came  after the event  for advice not rudeness or being called names.

Maybe they were naive or took the risk of buying a horse with or without warranty.


 At southhall you get till friday to return. (or you did)

 I can't believe some people jump to the conclusion OP is a troll.



 We all get conned sometimes in our life

 OP have you asked a vet whats wrong with the horse??

 I saw a few sold outside in the car park at southhall usually the meat man.. Best always to buy within auction


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## lannerch (19 May 2012)

I am struggling to believe this thread is for real traditionally troll posts appear Saturday night, often new posters and in capital letters.
Sorry if op I am wrong but I am struggling to believe it.


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## Honey08 (19 May 2012)

Dry Rot's post is interesting, hope its the same in England...


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## Honey08 (19 May 2012)

lannerch said:



			I am struggling to believe this thread is for real traditionally troll posts appear Saturday night, often new posters and in capital letters.
Sorry if op I am wrong but I am struggling to believe it.
		
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Why??


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## ew1801 (19 May 2012)

really sorry your in this situation

you said the auctioneers have had problems with this vendor before, could you prove that this person buys and sells regularly?

If so trading standards may help you and maybe a call to the tax man about their undeclared income?

google his phone number and see what you find an print all adverts off if you find them, then approach vendor again with your evidence and what you intend to do with it (trading standards and tax man) they may change their minds about returning your money.

worth a shot, goo luck


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## magoodle (19 May 2012)

think i havent been to clear with my original post 

horse was not sold in car park ,vendor delivered the horse to my yard ,where deal was done 

vendor said horse was genuine ,good in traffic ,and sound ,no previous lameness issues 

if i had sold a horse ,who after day 2 had been bad in traffic ,when i had said horse was fine ,i would of taken it back !!

auctioneers were very helpful ,contacted trading standards for me and couldnt of been nicer as had problems with vendor before


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## Rowreach (19 May 2012)

lannerch said:



			I am struggling to believe this thread is for real traditionally troll posts appear Saturday night, often new posters and in capital letters.
Sorry if op I am wrong but I am struggling to believe it.
		
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Exactly lannerch, which is why I thought the "I'm an AI I don't need lessons" was funny - oops if I was wrong


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## Miss L Toe (19 May 2012)

Nah said:



			Can I ask a quick question, what's an AI?

Also, sorry to hear about your troubles OP. I really hope it doesn't come down to putting the horse to sleep 

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AI= British Horse Society Assistant Instructor, someone who has more than average knowledge of things horsey, I have to admit to knowing one one lady who had this qualification and instructed her own daughter [own pony], who rode my boy, but was unable to tell which leg he was leading on at the canter!!!!
I hope it doesn't come down to OP sending horse to the sales filled with bute!!!


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## Shantara (19 May 2012)

littlelegs said:



			Nah- ai is assistant instructor.
		
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Thanks


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## magoodle (19 May 2012)

came on this forum for some honest advice ,not a public slagging off .

appreciate your comments


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## overtherainbow (19 May 2012)

you have been very naive but take it as a lesson learnt. if he has sold more than a certain number of horses in the past year (3?) i think he can be counted as a dealer and then you get more protection. this person clearly already has a bad reputation so has nothing to worry about reputation wise about not treating you fairly

you see the number of adverts every week where the vendor isnt entirely truthful- why would you think some kind of dodgy yard deal would be safer?? did you even try the horse?


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## Posie (19 May 2012)

He might have said that the horse had done all those things with someone, but he only sold you the horse, not the rider!!


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## MerrySherryRider (19 May 2012)

You were unlucky OP, fortunately the horse got lucky in finding a good home.
No advice but hope you manage to work something out.

Good old HHO trotting out the same old.. Predicably so many posters think buying a horse is like buying a pair of shoes. Chuck it out if its not perfect.
I don't think the troll is the OP.


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## charlie76 (19 May 2012)

Can I ask what sale you bought the horse from? 3k is a lot of money to pay for a horse that has gone through a run the mill auction. If you purchased the horse from a private seller away from the auction as you said you did then I am afraid for want of a better expression they saw you coming! Other than High performance


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## charlie76 (19 May 2012)

Stupid phone!! Sales horses don't end up there for no reason. I imagine the reserve was too.high hence the lack of sale .I am sorry to say you will have no comeback


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## magoodle (19 May 2012)

horserider said:



			You were unlucky OP, fortunately the horse got lucky in finding a good home.
No advice but hope you manage to work something out.

Good old HHO trotting out the same old.. Predicably so many posters think buying a horse is like buying a pair of shoes. Chuck it out if its not perfect.
I don't think the troll is the OP.

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Thank you horserider ,horse will not be filled with bute and sent back to sales,he will be looked after and i will sort his problems out .

he is a lovely horse with good manners so will get the treatment he needs


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## charlie76 (19 May 2012)

Op -up which sale did he come from?


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## Patterdale (19 May 2012)

OP sorry you have been hounded like this. Unfortunately this forum can be like that. 

Sounds like you have been a bit naive but can happen to anyone, we all have silly moments. 

Not quite sure why people are saying just to put it down..?

Unfortunately I don't think u are in a very strong position. Buyer beware unfortunately. Did u get a receipt?


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## mulledwhine (19 May 2012)

I feel you, went too look at a horse this week, luckily said no!! Seller unexpectedly was at show today and confronted me!!

Quite aggressive ' why did yu not want her'???

Me , 'because I did not fall in love and you were asking toouch for a mare, with no condition no tack etc'

I was polite but did feel bullied, glad I got out when I did, I get the feeling it could have ended like you xx


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## Parker79 (19 May 2012)

mulledwhine said:



			I feel you, went too look at a horse this week, luckily said no!! Seller unexpectedly was at show today and confronted me!!

Quite aggressive ' why did yu not want her'???

Me , 'because I did not fall in love and you were asking toouch for a mare, with no condition no tack etc'

I was polite but did feel bullied, glad I got out when I did, I get the feeling it could have ended like you xx
		
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MW - how awful!

OP - what is the vets view on this horse?


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## magoodle (19 May 2012)

,Patterdale ,yes got a reciept


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## Patterdale (19 May 2012)

And what does it say? Sold as seen?


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## Holly Hocks (19 May 2012)

OP - dont' know what to suggest, but just to say that I hope you get the horse sorted out.  Sounds like you've been had, pure and simple.  Good luck.


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## magoodle (19 May 2012)

vet view on horse is possible arthritic changes in hock,which has resulted in tilting pelvis ,and "left recurrent laryngeal paraesis" ie  knackered in wind in laymans terms


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## Miss L Toe (19 May 2012)

magoodle said:



			Hi 
bought a horse outside the ring at a horse sale as horse didnt reach its reserve
		
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If, for example, you had bought a horse by auction, but had no cash to pay that day, I think the horse would still have been in your ownership as when the hammer falls it is down to you.
If you agreed the price and arrangements were made, does this not make the contract legal at that time. In Scotland a verbal contract is the same as a written one, albeit difficult to enforce.
I would think that auctioneers would be pretty fed up at arranging sales with all the attendant costs for people to use their car park  to sell overpriced horses.


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## Littlelegs (19 May 2012)

If it wasn't sold at the auction, & as the op says was sold at the yard there's no come back from the auctioneers.


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## Crugeran Celt (19 May 2012)

I am new to this forum and am shocked by how rude some people can be! I am glad that this poor horse had not been purchased by most of the heartless people who have responded here, put to sleep just for not being fit for purpose, be thankful most of you are not horses or you know what might happen to you! Good luck with this horse and I really hope you can work with his problems and give him a good home. I have no idea of the legal position you are in but I wish you all the best.


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## Dippy Zippy (19 May 2012)

OP- i'm very sorry for what has happened to you, i hope you manage to work something out.

can some one please explain to me what a troll is?


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## Parker79 (19 May 2012)

Crugeran Celt said:



			I am new to this forum and am shocked by how rude some people can be! I am glad that this poor horse had not been purchased by most of the heartless people who have responded here, put to sleep just for not being fit for purpose, be thankful most of you are not horses or you know what might happen to you! Good luck with this horse and I really hope you can work with his problems and give him a good home. I have no idea of the legal position you are in but I wish you all the best.
		
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nicely put!


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## Dolcé (19 May 2012)

Rowreach said:



			Ahahahaha   Sorry for your trouble OP but that comment has made my night 

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LOL mine too!


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## Crugeran Celt (19 May 2012)

C Davison25 said:



			OP- i'm very sorry for what has happened to you, i hope you manage to work something out.

can some one please explain to me what a troll is?
		
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Didn't like to ask that but your quess is as good as mine! Assume its not very kind.


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## StrawberryFields1 (19 May 2012)

A troll is someone who posts things on the internet for attention/ to provoke a response.

Been lots about them in the media lately, some can be nasty (e.g posting horrible jokes on memorial sites). 

On here I have seen so many people (esp newbies) posting here looking for advice and immediate reaction for some people is 'troll' which is quite sad and is obviously really offensive to genuine people just looking for some help.


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## dressagelove (19 May 2012)

A troll is someone who posts things purely to get a reaction and wind people up.

I would have thought an AI would have enough experience to avoid a situation like this, potentially what others are thinking therefore thinking it might be a troll. Very strange, but if all true then most unfortunate. Hope the horse is saveable / reparable etc and it gets sorted!


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## Parker79 (19 May 2012)

Dolcé;10719145 said:
			
		


			LOL mine too!

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I got the impression the OP wasn't saying she 'doesn't need ANY lessons' she said this in response to someone making an assumption about her and saying she needed to go to a local riding school and having some lessons...I think she was trying to say she isn't a novice.


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## mulledwhine (19 May 2012)

A troll is someone who comes on too be controversial and put a ' spanner' in the works , nothing wring with a difference if opinion , bug a troll will cause offence


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## Honey08 (19 May 2012)

C Davison25 said:



			OP- i'm very sorry for what has happened to you, i hope you manage to work something out.

can some one please explain to me what a troll is?
		
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Its just an internet name for someone who comes onto a forum and posts something totally silly just to get reactions (so nothing whatsoever like this thread!).  You'll also find people like to throw the name about as an insult if they don't believe the thread for some reason, or generally if they don't like the poster (usually because they didn't take their advice or dared to lol ((laugh out loud)) at their advice..).


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## mle22 (19 May 2012)

There are some know-it-all really nasty people on this forum.


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## Crugeran Celt (19 May 2012)

mulledwhine said:



			A troll is someone who comes on too be controversial and put a ' spanner' in the works , nothing wring with a difference if opinion , bug a troll will cause offence 

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Thanks for letting me know what a troll is, still a bit confused as to why people thought this was not for real as the only offence caused has been towards op, not a troll's intention surely?


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## Clippy (19 May 2012)

I think the best plan of action is to do as he says and write to his solicitor. You won't need a solicitor but if you write to his, he'll have to pay. It's probably going to boil down to making him feel vulnerable by exposing him as a delaer who disguises himself as a private seller to avoid the obligations a dealer would have.

You'll probably have to say something like "I have proof you're a dealer, i'll tell trading standards and support any action they might take against you, but if you'll give me a refund for the horse, i'll forget all about it and you can go on your merry way".

TBH, if he's selling horses in auction car parks, he probably is a dealer. Google his number and get some hard facts about how many he's had for sale recently.


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## jhoward (19 May 2012)

Temptation said:



			Can't stop laughing at the fact you don't need lessons cause you have your AI!!! Ahhaa 

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i may of had a chuckle at that too. 

op. 

you have no rights would be my opinion, you bought OUTSIDE of the sale ring so no warrenties etc stand. 

chuck it back in the sales as sold as seen .


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## Miss L Toe (19 May 2012)

mulledwhine said:



			I feel you, went too look at a horse this week, luckily said no!! Seller unexpectedly was at show today and confronted me!!

Quite aggressive ' why did yu not want her'???

Me , 'because I did not fall in love and you were asking toouch for a mare, with no condition no tack etc'

I was polite but did feel bullied, glad I got out when I did, I get the feeling it could have ended like you xx
		
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I have had that too, I thought a lot about a nice unbroken Welsh Cob, nice, but not true to  type, I offered  £200 less than they asked for it [and I have to say, I usually pay what is asked], they were furious, it was not as though I had said I would buy it and later tried to knock them down [as has happened to me]


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## Natch (19 May 2012)

magoodle said:



			think i havent been to clear with my original post 

horse was not sold in car park ,vendor delivered the horse to my yard ,where deal was done 

vendor said horse was genuine ,good in traffic ,and sound ,no previous lameness issues 

if i had sold a horse ,who after day 2 had been bad in traffic ,when i had said horse was fine ,i would of taken it back !!

auctioneers were very helpful ,contacted trading standards for me and couldnt of been nicer as had problems with vendor before
		
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For the purposes of helping you, sold in the car park and at your yard are the same thing - i.e. not through the auction house, so you don't have any comback from them. If the horse had not been as described, and you bought through the ring, there is a possibility the auction house would have taken it back and refunded you. That's why people are saying this.

Not everyone is as honest and kind hearted as you, as you have found out. Whatever the moral position is, I suspect that in your situation you the buyer is responsible for ensuring the horse is as described and fit for purpose, and I doubt you will be able to get anywhere pursuing the vendor unfortunately. But hey, neither I nor most of the people on this forum are the experts, so go with the advice you have had from the professionals - BHS legal team, the equine solicitor, whatever - not from a forum where every unqualified to comment tom dick and harry has their say. 



magoodle said:



			vet view on horse is possible arthritic changes in hock,which has resulted in tilting pelvis ,and "left recurrent laryngeal paraesis" ie  knackered in wind in laymans terms
		
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A degenerative joint disease and a serious problem with the respiratory system is quite a disabling combination. I worry for you that you may spend a lot more money trying to put this horse right, only to end up with a paddock ornament at the end of it. That is why a lot of people are suggesting you put to sleep straight away - to avoid a lot more heartache and throwing good money after bad. Again, we aren't actually in a position to make an expert judgement on this, so please act on the advice of your vet, and discuss all options and all the costs and prognoses with them. My gut feeling is that somebody else has already come to the end of the road trying to help this horse, wasn't brave enough to make the decision to PTS themself or wanted to "give the horse another chance" by palming the horse's not inconsiderable problems and treatment costs on someone else - its a pretty common reason to want to take an otherwise nice horse to an auction.

Please talk to the professionals on how to go forward. I'm sure we can help if you would like some suggestions as to the kind of information you need to find out in order to proceed.


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## Dippy Zippy (19 May 2012)

Thanks to everyone who replied explaining what a troll is


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## VLHIEASTON (19 May 2012)

I agree with Crugeran x

Good luck to you and the horse x


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## npage123 (19 May 2012)

Goodness, where is this thread going!

Sorry, I can't give advice re the sale, but wanted to say I'm sorry things hasn't gone smoothly so far...  Hopefully this horse would become the horse of your dreams - only time will tell.  It sounds as if you've already decided to invest your time and money in him - good for you!

I too am VERY taken aback that so many people would say to put the horse to sleep - before they know the details about his behaviour/medical problems etc.  Yes, it's not a traumatic/painful procedure to put an animal to sleep, but surely it shouldn't be a decision that's taken so lightly, and it shouldn't be something that you would try to joke about - just for the sake of submitting a 'clever' reply on a forum!!


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## Crugeran Celt (19 May 2012)

jhoward said:



			i may of had a chuckle at that too. 

op. 

you have no rights would be my opinion, you bought OUTSIDE of the sale ring so no warrenties etc stand. 

chuck it back in the sales as sold as seen .
		
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No wonder that so many horses are just passed from home to home and end up in a tin! Some of the lucky ones end up being kept just to give them a good for ever home and expect nothing in return. I am so glad that I don't have your attitude. The mistake in buying him has been made and he now needs looking after or he will just be another horse that gets destroyed because he doesn't fit what us humans see as perfect. How sad is that!


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## mulledwhine (19 May 2012)

Miss l toe, it made me really uncomfortable , tbh I would have thought £600 would have been more than a fair price !! I can see past poor, but Please do not tell me a month on good grazing will bring her back /(

I might look green looking!!!  lovely mare , but not for me, full stop!!


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## DragonSlayer (19 May 2012)

mulledwhine said:



			I feel you, went too look at a horse this week, luckily said no!! Seller unexpectedly was at show today and confronted me!!

Quite aggressive ' why did yu not want her'???

Me , 'because I did not fall in love and you were asking toouch for a mare, with no condition no tack etc'

I was polite but did feel bullied, glad I got out when I did, I get the feeling it could have ended like you xx
		
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Goodness, tell me more....!


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## rockysmum (19 May 2012)

I've seen a lot of these sort of sales at our last yard.  To be honest everyone involved knew the risks they were taking and that they would have no come back.

I've seen horses change hands a couple of times before a sale, still go through the ring and then be sold to someone else after.  Auctioneers were never involved or paid a commission.

Thinking this through, if you buy from a dealer you can claim that the horse was not fit for purpose.  Your evidence for the purpose would be the advert you responded to.  Was the horse described as sound and suitable for your purpose in the auction catalogue, if so I suppose its an ad of a kind.  

Then you would have to prove he is a dealer.  Again previous auction catalogues could be evidence.

Sounds like a nightmare which could end up costing a fortune and you still wouldn't get your money back.

Why not try a letter to the solicitor and see if you can get a partial refund, the difference between what you paid and what the horse is worth.  Again the price it fetched in the auction ring would be evidence of what it could be sold for.  

How much did the bidding actually go to in the ring, is the difference worth it?


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## Littlelegs (19 May 2012)

As someone who said pts if the vet bills are more than the value of buying the type you want, I don't see it as at all heartless. The op has just bought it, so hardly supportive to say 'you are now duty bound to spend thousands of pounds in vet bills, regardless of whether you can afford it, even though you've only owned it days'. Or does everyone who thinks pts is too drastic regularly go to sales looking for unhealthy horses to spend a fortune on vets out of a sense of duty? No, thought not.
   If the horse can be put right cheaply, or money isn't a problem for the op & the vet thinks its treatable,  then yes, worth doing what's possible. But its not on to imply the op has to put it right & pts isn't ok, unless you are offering to pay. Entirely different if it was injured after she bought it or she'd had it a while, but after a few days all that's owed is not to pass the poor thing on.


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## Crugeran Celt (19 May 2012)

littlelegs said:



			As someone who said pts if the vet bills are more than the value of buying the type you want, I don't see it as at all heartless. The op has just bought it, so hardly supportive to say 'you are now duty bound to spend thousands of pounds in vet bills, regardless of whether you can afford it, even though you've only owned it days'. Or does everyone who thinks pts is too drastic regularly go to sales looking for unhealthy horses to spend a fortune on vets out of a sense of duty? No, thought not.
   If the horse can be put right cheaply, or money isn't a problem for the op & the vet thinks its treatable,  then yes, worth doing what's possible. But its not on to imply the op has to put it right & pts isn't ok, unless you are offering to pay. Entirely different if it was injured after she bought it or she'd had it a while, but after a few days all that's owed is not to pass the poor thing on.
		
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I don't really agree as op has made the purchase and therefor it is her resposibility to do the best for the horse that may well be pts but if the horse is able to live a happy pain free life then surely destroying him is unethical. I have a 19 year old horse that has been unable to work for the past 10 years due to various problems she has not been put in a sale 'sold as seen' or pts as she is happy and pain free, I just keep her and yes she is a money pit but she is my responsibility.


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## Littlelegs (19 May 2012)

I'd do anything in my power for mine too, & have done in the past. But the ops horse won't be insured so if it costs a lot she/he will have to pay themselves. Which I'm certainly not going to say someone must. Hundreds of healthy horses are destroyed each week because people can't afford to feed them, let alone treat them, so sad as it is its not the worst thing in the world. If it goes back to the vendor & the op gets her money back it will be back in a sales ring, might as well pts now & save it going for meat sooner or later.


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## magic104 (19 May 2012)

If you can prove he is a dealer & you have it in writing that the horse was sound & 100% traffic, you may have a chance so write to his solicitor.  3k for a horse at a sale is way over priced, except at a performance sale.  And I am also in the camp of PTS if his condition is such that he is nothing more then a garden ornament.  Horses are too big & expensive to be treated as pets.  Fair enough if he had given you years of service & you can afford it, but don't be too sentimental, this is not a dog or cat.  Why people think PTS is somehow cruel or makes you a bad person is beyond me.  

Go back to the auctioneers & see if they can help by providing information of previous horses he has sold.  If they have some numbers there it may help your case in proving he is a dealer.  Good luck, feel for you as even experienced people get caught out.


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## TJP (19 May 2012)

I havent read the whole thread so not sure if anyone has already mentioned this  You should have a check at the T&C for the sale yard. Usually any deal done on sale day, whether paid for or not, should pay commission and therefore the sales returns policy should come into play.


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## Marydoll (19 May 2012)

Crugeran Celt said:



			No wonder that so many horses are just passed from home to home and end up in a tin! Some of the lucky ones end up being kept just to give them a good for ever home and expect nothing in return. I am so glad that I don't have your attitude. The mistake in buying him has been made and he now needs looking after or he will just be another horse that gets destroyed because he doesn't fit what us humans see as perfect. How sad is that!
		
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Youre right the mistake in buying him has been made, sadly its all gone wrong, and tbh, buying in these circumstances im not surprised. Sorry op, im surprised your surprised at the outcome of this type of sale, you paid your money, took your chance and the rest is history. Your chance of a refund  imo is slim to nil.
If you want to spend money trying to get this horse right, by all means go for it.
But i do not think the op is morally obliged to try to get this horse right at great cost, for a horse unable to do the job she wants, in an ideal world people can keep equine lawnmowers, not everyone has the money, we all know how expensive a horse is to keep if kept well, or inclination to do so.
Which leaves either find a good loan home for him, good luck with that, sold as seen to an uncertain future, or pts.


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## Crugeran Celt (19 May 2012)

I am obviously in the minority here but my horses are no different to my dogs or cats and are pets. Some people find themselves in financial difficulties after they have had a horse for many years and have to then sell or possibly pts but surely before buying any animal the person must know if they can afford that animal should the worst happen. I paid rather a large amount for a welsh sect d four years ago and had him 5* vetted, a week after I bought him he slipped and fell whilst out riding and was lame. The farrier was coming that afternoon and looked at him for me and suggested that his riding days may be over. At no point did I think of selling or pts I knew he would be kept as a field ornament. Luckily for me he made a full recovery and is completely sound and healthy.  My point is is that I had bought him therefore he is my responsibility to care for to the best of my ability come what may and if that means owning a field ornament so be it.


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## Littlelegs (19 May 2012)

Mine are pets too. I turned down very good money for my 14.2, from homes I trusted, because she's my pet. I won't be selling my daughters pony when she's outgrown either, despite the fact she'll only be 7/8. But I won't try & guilt trip the op as the situation is completely different.


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## Marydoll (19 May 2012)

Crugeran Celt said:



			I am obviously in the minority here but my horses are no different to my dogs or cats and are pets. Some people find themselves in financial difficulties after they have had a horse for many years and have to then sell or possibly pts but surely before buying any animal the person must know if they can afford that animal should the worst happen. I paid rather a large amount for a welsh sect d four years ago and had him 5* vetted, a week after I bought him he slipped and fell whilst out riding and was lame. The farrier was coming that afternoon and looked at him for me and suggested that his riding days may be over. At no point did I think of selling or pts I knew he would be kept as a field ornament. Luckily for me he made a full recovery and is completely sound and healthy.  My point is is that I had bought him therefore he is my responsibility to care for to the best of my ability come what may and if that means owning a field ornament so be it.
		
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I understand you, really, i do, i have a 28 yo field ornament who gave me years of great riding and happiness and a 16 yo diagnosed at rising 5 with djd, who i bought as a 2 yo who hardly turned a hoof, both cost me a fortune over the years but the difference is we have a history, the op has no history with this horse and imo is no more morally obliged to keep it probably at great cost than you or I . Yes she has a responsibility to it now and part of this may be to decide pts is the better option than selling on


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## Crugeran Celt (20 May 2012)

I agree that she must decide for herself what is best for the horse and I am really not anti pts if that is in the best interest of the animal and I also agree that it would be better to do that now than put the poor animal through sale after sale until evenutually he would end up in the meat market. I appreciate that I am very fortunate to have the facilities to keep my field ornaments and a horse to ride.

Again I wish op all the best whatever her decision.


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## Maesfen (20 May 2012)

magoodle said:



			oh and fyi im not 12 ,i dont need lessons ,as have my AI
		
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And you bought a horse with dodgy hocks?  That says a lot for your AI.


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## jhoward (20 May 2012)

Crugeran Celt said:



			No wonder that so many horses are just passed from home to home and end up in a tin! Some of the lucky ones end up being kept just to give them a good for ever home and expect nothing in return. I am so glad that I don't have your attitude. The mistake in buying him has been made and he now needs looking after or he will just be another horse that gets destroyed because he doesn't fit what us humans see as perfect. How sad is that!
		
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people see it differently. would you keep a dog going that was lame and having breathing problems, if it was going to cost you hundrends a year. and of course the animal was in pain? no of course you wouldnt. 

its not sad its reality.


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## Pearlsasinger (20 May 2012)

There is a reason for the saying 'buyer beware' and this is it.
Those considering buying at auction really do need to know what they are doing and those buying outside the ring should be doubly careful.

I haven't read the whole thread, so apologise if a troll has been dragged out from under the bridge previously.


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## bumper (20 May 2012)

Good grief. I've only just seen this. Facedesk moment. Sheeesh.


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## honetpot (20 May 2012)

I am not an AI, have not a paper qualifcation to my name but anyone who buys at auction unless its one of the top ones knows never to take anything at face value. The horse is there for a reason and its up to you to either have the knowledge to know or ask the right questions and listen to what they DO NOT say. 
 When you buy this sort of horse unless its got a good varifiable comp history, a good vender will have this printed out, a fullpassport with some sort of a traceable history not minted that day, should be cheap, meaning a few hundred pounds off meat money.
  If this person is not a troll I can not really feel sorry for them as they seem to have left their brain at home and god knows what they are teaching, as I suppose they would be classed as a knowledgable proffessional.
  The first rule of buying at auction is read the terms and conditions, they may be in small print but they will be in the catalogue. Normally sales outside the ring are not covered by the conditions of sale unless commision is paid. Why do you think the dealers like to sell them this way?
  If a horse does not sell in the ring its usually over priced for that market, and some horses trail round several auctions before being sold.  If you like a horse that doesn't sell by all means follow it out, find out what they want for it and then treat it as a normal viewing and try the d*m thing properly because you are going to pay above auction price for it. If the vender doesn't like it their not going to get your money.
   If you buy a horse through the ring and it has a reserve it will be covered by the auctioneers terms and conditions which depending on the value may give you 24-48 hours to have it vetted and find out its vices then you may have a chance of getting your money back as its discription must match the catalogue.
    I have been going to auctions for years and only ever bought one which I paid meat money for, it was a lovely horse just in the wrong place at the wrong time. My top tip would be never bid or buy more than you can afford to lose.


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## silu (20 May 2012)

Good advice Honetpot. I too don't have my AI! I would have thought anyone going to the bother of getting this qualification would have learnt NEVER to trust anybody 100% when money and horses are involved.
As regards any come back, forget it, as if a legal path is followed, the only person who will benefit will be the lawyer. I'm not a lawyer either but I do know the phrase "buyer beware" and that's the rule the OP forgot.


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## Ladydragon (20 May 2012)

So...when did it become 'ok' to be taken advantage of, sold a dud, lied to or have any dodgy dealings 'excused' as being almost normal and blame being placed at the feet of the buyer?  The OP didn't actually do anything wrong - maybe a bit naive in believing someone she knew, maybe bad judgement in not getting a vetting etc etc but she didn't actually do anything morally or legally wrong...  The seller may well have done so but an almost "ha ha, silly OP, your own fault, just kiss £3k goodbye"...  



magoodle said:



			horse was not sold in car park ,vendor delivered the horse to my yard ,where deal was done 
<snip>
auctioneers were very helpful ,contacted trading standards for me and couldnt of been nicer as had problems with vendor before
		
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Yes, but it was the auction that put you together - he didn't bring the horse to your yard by accident as part of a day trip...  If the auctioneers have had trouble with the vendor before, maybe that indicates he could be deemed a dealer...  Arguably, the sale was generated by the auction but I guess it depends on the wording of their T&Cs...

Getting taken in by someone you feel you know isn't pleasant...  I hope you're able to gain some legal recourse but primarily, you are able to pick the right path wrt the horse's future...


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## Queenbee (20 May 2012)

Ew that was going to be my post!  OP if the seller has sold 3 or more horses in the last 12 months then it is not a private seller it is a dealer and you may well have comeback. Write to vendor recorded delivery stating that you wish to return horse and your reasons for this and as Ew says google number. Good luck


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## SpruceRI (20 May 2012)

OP - did you try the horse out when the seller brought it to your yard?  And do you have anything in writing to say the horse was sound in wind, leg etc?  Like the auction guide (though strictly speaking that's only valid for the day of the sale, not thereafter)

I don't see that the Auctioneers have anything to do with the sale if the 'deal' was done at your yard.

But.... I still think that you do have a 'leg to stand on', whether the seller is a dealer or private person.

You'll could try to sue the seller through the Small Claims Court - I don't think you need to hire a solicitor for this.  The issue might be that you didn't actually ride/try the horse nor get it vetted, and that might be your downfall to successfully suing.

I know of 2 people who have sued or been sued, and on both occasions the horse was OK when the buyer tried it, and the seller said it was 100% in all ways - and it wasn't. One was a private sale and one was a dealer (who tried to make out he wasn't a dealer, but it was proved he was!!)

Also, if you sue, and are successful, are you going to give the horse back or will you want to keep it and try to mend it?

(I'd be inclined to get Freezemark to mark it with the 'L' Loss of Use mark, so that the dealer can't sell the horse on to another unsuspecting person - though I don't suppose this is possible to do??)


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## Moomin1 (20 May 2012)

This is what happens I'm afraid when someone that is inexperienced with auctio buying does so.  

I'm afriad you have to deal with it now and do what's best for the horse.


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## MerrySherryRider (20 May 2012)

BBW said:



			NO you have NOT been conned, you bought a horse outside the ring, More Fool You. Said horse is fooked, kindest thing is PTS. Am I heartless, no just realistic and can't abide people who think that keeping horses going, despite what may be wrong with them, is right. Put horse out of its misery and don't been so trusting next time.
		
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Amazing isn't it ? So many experts on here that can diagnose the severity, possible prognosis and treatment costs of a horse without seeing it.

Throwaway horses in a society where nothing is valued.


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## Ladydragon (20 May 2012)

BBW said:



			NO you have NOT been conned, you bought a horse outside the ring, More Fool You. Said horse is fooked, kindest thing is PTS. Am I heartless, no just realistic and can't abide people who think that keeping horses going, despite what may be wrong with them, is right. Put horse out of its misery and don't been so trusting next time.
		
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So vendor describes said horse as "good in traffic ,done everything ie xc,sj and dressage" and "genuine ,good in traffic ,and sound ,no previous lameness issues"...  Takes £3k from an acquaintance for the horse which then turns out  not to be good in traffic but also, according to the vet, is unsound, probably has arthritic implications in the hocks with a knock on effect and isn't fit for purpose...  If the OP's story is correct, the seller has fibbed through his teeth, palmed off an unfit horse, taken £3k and run...  But that's all ok, the OP hasn't been conned and it's all her fault...


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## Pearlsasinger (20 May 2012)

Ladydragon said:



			So vendor describes said horse as "good in traffic ,done everything ie xc,sj and dressage" and "genuine ,good in traffic ,and sound ,no previous lameness issues"...  Takes £3k from an acquaintance for the horse which then turns out  not to be good in traffic but also, according to the vet, is unsound, probably has arthritic implications in the hocks with a knock on effect and isn't fit for purpose...  If the OP's story is correct, the seller has fibbed through his teeth, palmed off an unfit horse, taken £3k and run...  But that's all ok, the OP hasn't been conned and it's all her fault...
		
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I'm afraid that it IS her fault.  She has no record of anything that the vendor said because the horse was not sold through the ring, therefore even if the auction was a sale of warranted horses, this horse is not covered by the terms and conditions of the sale.
I really cannot understand why a knowledgeable AI would pay £3000 for a horse which was unsold at an auction without trying it in at least some of the circumstances that she wanted it for, nor can I understand how a knowledgeable AI couldn't spot an unsound horse - unless, of course, the horse had been given bute prior to the sale - but then if the horse had been bought through a warranted sale............
As I said previously, when buying at auction (which is what OP presumably intended to do), it is very much a case of 'buyer beware' and when buying outside the ring and thus falling outside the protection of the auctioneer the buyer needs to be doubly careful.  
But then, I'd have expected that a knowledgeable AI would know that!


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## Ladydragon (20 May 2012)

Pearlsasinger said:



			I'm afraid that it IS her fault.
		
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I can't agree...  Naive, maybe a bad judge of character, perhaps foolish...  But she didn't force him to misrepresent his horse...  She gave someone she knows the presumption of honesty and they chose to tell a fairy story... It wasn't some random seller she'd never seen/spoken to before...

Fundamentally, she did nothing wrong...  To blame her is pretty much saying it's perfectly ok for sellers to act in a legally or morally reprehensible manner...  Is it really acceptable to hold sellers to that low a standard?


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## zaminda (20 May 2012)

Firstly, sadly these things do happen at sales, dealers knock horses out all the time, often putting them through the ring with high reserves so that they sell outside and aren't covered by the warrenty.
You say you know this person, does he sell horses often? If so he would definatly be classed as a dealer, and you would have come back. 
The description of the horse in the catalogue would be classed as an advert, and your receipt would also be evidence.
Even if it is a private sale then these two things will help you.
On another point, quite how the fact that you are an AI means you should be able to tell the horse is sound only because he is buted up to the eyeballs I don't know!
I feel very sorry for you, especially as this is someone you know, but trust no one is the caveat here.


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## Dry Rot (20 May 2012)

The OP says she has spoken to the auctioneers "who have had problems with this seller before". I think I would be doing more research on that. Who else would have dealings with this character? Some good suggestions in previous posts. The auctioneers will be careful in what they say as they will have no wish to risk an action for defamation or lose a customer (even a bad one!).

So I'd try to find out about the "problems" with possibly the names and addresses of purchasers. Basically, build a case. Ever seen "Rogue Traders" on TV? That's exactly what they do, then they expose the culprit and leave it to the authorities to follow up. The threat of exposure might be enough.

When you have the evidence, write a nice polite letter to the dealer (because a dealer he undoubtedly is!) and suggest that he might like to take the horse back and give you a full refund as your friend, who just happens to be a journalist, is very interested in publishing the story -- but you'd prefer not to have the publicity.  In similar circumstances,  I have occasionally mentioned that I'm a journalist and doing a story for The Times (or whatever) but felt it only fair to give them, the cheat, a chance to put matters right. Anyone can call themselves a journalist and there is no guarantee that The Times will publish what you've written anyway -- so that's a white lie but it could work. It's worked for me on several occasions, but don't tell anyone!


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## magic104 (20 May 2012)

Utterly amazed at the hard line some posters are taking.  The AI came about because someone suggested the poster take riding lessons.  It is very easy to bute up a horse so it appears sound & even dealers have been conned before now.  IMO she has every right to check out her options as he may well be a dealer & therefore some comeback.  
Not every horse/pony is at the sales for a reason that is anything but kosher .  It happens to be one of the quickest & to some extent less stressful ways of selling.  Bloodstock sales have been running for years, no one bats an eye.  Brightwells run performance sales, sales for Welsh ponies, TBs, Standardbreds, NPS Sales, Shetlands, etc.
As far as I am aware we do not know yet what the poster has in writing, we do know she was conned.  It is all very well saying buyer be aware, but there are still laws in place to protect the consumer.  
Putting to sleep a horse that you have no emotional attachment to that is lame & therefore possibly in pain, is going to cost a fortune in vets bills which you did not anticipate (if this had happened further down the line, chances are the horse would have been insured by then) is not part of the throwaway society.   Sometimes you have to be practical it is better than palming the horse off onto someone else & the charities are bursting at the seams so they wont take him.
For the future there is a simple test you can do when buying at a sale.  Take a lunge line with you & after seeing the pony/horse trot up & down see it trotted on a circle on flat hard ground.  If it is buted up it can still be difficult to detect, but it has been known to show up a horse/pony that is un-level.


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## Miss L Toe (20 May 2012)

Dry Rot said:



			The OP says she has spoken to the auctioneers "who have had problems with this seller before". I think I would be doing more research on that. Who else would have dealings with this character? Some good suggestions in previous posts. The auctioneers will be careful in what they say as they will have no wish to risk an action for defamation or lose a customer (even a bad one!).

So I'd try to find out about the "problems" with possibly the names and addresses of purchasers. Basically, build a case. Ever seen "Rogue Traders" on TV? That's exactly what they do, then they expose the culprit and leave it to the authorities to follow up. The threat of exposure might be enough.

When you have the evidence, write a nice polite letter to the dealer (because a dealer he undoubtedly is!) and suggest that he might like to take the horse back and give you a full refund as your friend, who just happens to be a journalist, is very interested in publishing the story -- but you'd prefer not to have the publicity.  In similar circumstances,  I have occasionally mentioned that I'm a journalist and doing a story for The Times (or whatever) but felt it only fair to give them, the cheat, a chance to put matters right. Anyone can call themselves a journalist and there is no guarantee that The Times will publish what you've written anyway -- so that's a white lie but it could work. It's worked for me on several occasions, but don't tell anyone!

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Good thinking, I agree OP was foolish, but in court she has a vet's report showing long term pre-existing condition, court would know that she would not pay for such a horse if vendor had been truthful. Make sure you write to him and tell him he is liable for all costs, including livery,  vet and farrier costs.
What about the passport, did he sign it over to OP?


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## Luci07 (20 May 2012)

Could I just point out that the only real " crime" the OP wa guilty of was actually taking the word of someone she knew of at face value and believing them.

I read the first post and and immediately thought pretty much the same as everyone else. Then thought again and realised the reason why I am a hardened and cynical person is.....as a direct result of people like the OP sharing their horror stories. 

While OP may struggle to get her money back, she can do a lot to make this vendors life unpleasant in terms of reporting locally and warnig other people.


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## Parker79 (20 May 2012)

OP - I am truly sorry this has happened to you and that some of the people on this forum cannot be sympathetic and simply take this opportunity to have a pop....once again its an example of people on this forum having a look for threads where they can simply have a go...I think its appalling...really sickening.

Haven't any of you got a heart? why are you intent on making the OP feel worse?

Truly upset by this, OP I think most people would sympathise but they are perhaps worried to comment for fear of being told how stupid we are!


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## Queenbee87 (20 May 2012)

I would be wary of going down the route of sending a letter saying "if you don't take the horse back I'll publish an article in the press/ go to trading standards but if you give me a refund/take it back I won't" Surely that's blackmail? (Apologies if I'm wrong, have a bit of a dodgy head from wine last night  )


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## Marydoll (20 May 2012)

Parker79 said:



			OP - I am truly sorry this has happened to you and that some of the people on this forum cannot be sympathetic and simply take this opportunity to have a pop....once again its an example of people on this forum having a look for threads where they can simply have a go...I think its appalling...really sickening.

Haven't any of you got a heart? why are you intent on making the OP feel worse?

Truly upset by this, OP I think most people would sympathise but they are perhaps worried to comment for fear of being told how stupid we are!
		
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Out of all the replies the op has had only a few blunt ones,so i dont agree with this comment, most have simply stated she made a classic error in the way she bought, and will struggle to get her money back, thats not having a go, thats answering her post.


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## Black_Horse_White (20 May 2012)

Put it in writing, ask for a reply within 7 days and sent by recorded delivery. If you don't hear back go to the small claims court. It only cost around £200. I do have experience of this when I was taken to court. All said it's a case of buyer beware but on the day that mean't nothing.


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## Wagtail (20 May 2012)

Crugeran Celt said:



			I am obviously in the minority here but my horses are no different to my dogs or cats and are pets. Some people find themselves in financial difficulties after they have had a horse for many years and have to then sell or possibly pts but surely before buying any animal the person must know if they can afford that animal should the worst happen. I paid rather a large amount for a welsh sect d four years ago and had him 5* vetted, a week after I bought him he slipped and fell whilst out riding and was lame. The farrier was coming that afternoon and looked at him for me and suggested that his riding days may be over. At no point did I think of selling or pts I knew he would be kept as a field ornament. Luckily for me he made a full recovery and is completely sound and healthy.  My point is is that I had bought him therefore he is my responsibility to care for to the best of my ability come what may and if that means owning a field ornament so be it.
		
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Completely agree.


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## Wagtail (20 May 2012)

BBW said:



			NO you have NOT been conned, you bought a horse outside the ring, More Fool You. Said horse is fooked, kindest thing is PTS. Am I heartless, no just realistic and can't abide people who think that keeping horses going, despite what may be wrong with them, is right. Put horse out of its misery and don't been so trusting next time.
		
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Wow! You are clever. You are able to diagnose a horse and recommend PTS witthout even seeing it.


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## whisp&willow (20 May 2012)

i dont feel sorry for anyone who buys a horse for 3k on sight alone.

maybe i'm a typical "tight scot" but no money would leave my hand unless i had at least handled, and ridden the horse, let alone had it vetted (for 3k- possibly wouldn't vet if the horse was going very cheaply)

personally i would never buy a horse from auction-  i don't have the money to gamble with.

if the OP had in fact ridden or vetted the horse to find out that it was doped up to the eyeballs, then Yes, i feel sorry for you, but otherwise, you took a gamble and lost.  a hard lesson learned.

a fool and his money are easily parted... i wouldnt buy a car for 3k without having a mechanic look at it-  same applies with horses!  

i hope the horse comes right without too much financial hardship, and of course, if you can get some money back then great.  good luck.


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## Wagtail (20 May 2012)

Sorry OP, I cannot give you any constructive advice. The best advice on here has been to try to prove this person is a dealer and you may have some come back.

I am also sorry that you have had to endure the juvenile comments of some of the posters on this thread. It really is like being in the school playground at times.


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## Flame_ (20 May 2012)

OK, so for people who don't like like the pts option which is what I'd go for in this situation, here's a few more suggestions...

Keep the horse. Have lots of fun watching it eat grass and brushing it for the next ? number of years. Fine if that's what you want, pretty naf if you want to ride. It wouldn't be for me.

Keep the horse. Spend a lot of money trying to get it right  (and I expect one or two people have already had a try at this before sending a well broken, all-round horse to a sales) and either be extremely lucky and have it work or, more likely, be faced with the same dilemma and less cash in a year or two's time.

Try to get a refund from the dealer. In which case said dealer will just put somebody else and the horse in the same situation that you are in next time they manage to sell it. ETA If you really had been conned, this is what I'd be tempted to go for, but IMO the circumstances you bought in mean you really took your chances.

Put it back in the sales for whatever money you can get (which is unlikely to be much of a budget for buying another horse). This also puts somebody else and the horse in the same situation whoever buys it next although if the buyer pays less and is more savvy than you at least they wouldn't be losing out so much. The horse is just as screwed though, really, isn't it?


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## Crugeran Celt (20 May 2012)

BBW said:



			NO you have NOT been conned, you bought a horse outside the ring, More Fool You. Said horse is fooked, kindest thing is PTS. Am I heartless, no just realistic and can't abide people who think that keeping horses going, despite what may be wrong with them, is right. Put horse out of its misery and don't been so trusting next time.
		
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I hope you never find yourself with a horse that can live perfectly happy left in a field to retire as you would obviously pts, lets hope that you are not on the recieving end of this attitude as you get older and less mobile! Horses are not there just to work hard for you then be sold on just because thay no longer fit the bill, if a suitable home cannot be found it is your duty as their current owner to do the best for them surely. Obviously you have seen and examined said horse as you KNOW it needs pts?


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## Crugeran Celt (20 May 2012)

jhoward said:



			people see it differently. would you keep a dog going that was lame and having breathing problems, if it was going to cost you hundrends a year. and of course the animal was in pain? no of course you wouldnt. 

its not sad its reality.
		
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If the dog or any other animal was happy and not in pain or unacceptable discomfort then yes I would keep it. We are all different but all my animals and I have quite a few would be given the chance of a comfortable life. I chose to have them I have to care for them, thats the deal.


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## Capriole (20 May 2012)

I think its one thing being happy to retire horses youve had a while, and another to have a horse a couple of days and be faced with a field ornament for however many years in the future, with a brand new horse.


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## Shantara (20 May 2012)

My friend was conned and ended up with a broken ex racer. 
She loves it dearly and would have been perfectly happy brushing it for the next however many years. But she invested some money and it's being sent away to be re-backed professionally.
There's also plenty of things you can do without riding. You don't have to stick to brushing!! You can do bombproofing (which is really fun!) or horse agility or several other things. I thought only riding was fun, until I discovered all these games you could play.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Afa0b81tGPQ


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## Holly Hocks (20 May 2012)

Crugeran Celt said:



			I hope you never find yourself with a horse that can live perfectly happy left in a field to retire as you would obviously pts, lets hope that you are not on the recieving end of this attitude as you get older and less mobile! Horses are not there just to work hard for you then be sold on just because thay no longer fit the bill, if a suitable home cannot be found it is your duty as their current owner to do the best for them surely. Obviously you have seen and examined said horse as you KNOW it needs pts?
		
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I really enjoyed reading all your comments Crugeran Celt - well said! I feel exactly the same as you do about my horses.

The only thing I have at the back of my mind is that this person won't have bonded with the horse yet, she's spent a lot of money on it and to be fair, although I don't think PTS should be the first option without further investigation,  I don't think she's duty bound to keep the horse.  I think I would be using solicitors and going through the courts.  Although she has no record of how the seller explained the horse verbally, she should have, or will be able to get a copy of the sale catalogue from the auction where it is described.  I appreciate that the horse wasn't sold via the auction, but the description in the catalogue will prove an element of dishonesty.


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## Shantara (20 May 2012)

jhoward said:



			people see it differently. would you keep a dog going that was lame and having breathing problems, if it was going to cost you hundrends a year. and of course the animal was in pain? no of course you wouldnt. 

its not sad its reality.
		
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My dog has cost us _thousands_ a year and my cat cost us hundreds in just a few months. Sadly the cat was in too much pain and we had to end her suffering. The dog, however is on pills which prevent her (or at least make it much more unlikely) from having another stroke. She's been for so many vet visits I've lost count, but she's very happy in herself and not in pain, so we'll continue to keep her going until it looks like she might be starting to go down hill.


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## Pale Rider (20 May 2012)

Buying and selling horses is a risky business. If I were you I would try and make the most of the horse you have bought, providing there is nothing seriously wrong from a medical point of view.
Don't feel too bad about buying outside the ring, lots do it.
Vetting is ok but if something shows up later the vet will claim, that it was ok on the day of the vetting
As I say, make the most of the horse you've bought. Don't waste time or more money chasing the seller, he's watertight.


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## Miss L Toe (20 May 2012)

Pale Rider said:



			If I were you I would try and make the most of the horse you have bought, providing there is nothing seriously wrong from a medical point of view.
Don't feel too bad about buying outside the ring, lots do it.
Vetting is ok but if something shows up later the vet will claim, that it was ok on the day of the vetting
As I say, make the most of the horse you've bought. Don't waste time or more money chasing the seller, he's watertight.
		
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I don't agree.


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## magoodle (20 May 2012)

Thank you all for your positive and negative replies .

l have managed to have a nice chat with the vendor of the horse this morning ,and am pleased to say HES GOING BACK THIS AFTERNOON !!

i am getting a refund ,less his expenses ,and im now relieved and probably in many of your eyes LUCKY 

silly -yes 
troll-no 

once again thank you all


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## stevieg (20 May 2012)

Good news indeed! I'm glad it's all turned out well. We ALL make mistakes at some point


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## Ceris Comet (20 May 2012)

Well done op !
Go and find a nice horsey now .


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## magoodle (20 May 2012)

stevieg said:



			Good news indeed! I'm glad it's all turned out well. We ALL make mistakes at some point 

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Thank you stevieg ,yes we do all make mistakes ,but sadly none of us are perfect xx


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## 3Beasties (20 May 2012)

Sounds like a good out come for you, well done!


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## PolarSkye (20 May 2012)

Naturally said:



			For the purposes of helping you, sold in the car park and at your yard are the same thing - i.e. not through the auction house, so you don't have any comback from them. If the horse had not been as described, and you bought through the ring, there is a possibility the auction house would have taken it back and refunded you. That's why people are saying this.

Not everyone is as honest and kind hearted as you, as you have found out. Whatever the moral position is, I suspect that in your situation you the buyer is responsible for ensuring the horse is as described and fit for purpose, and I doubt you will be able to get anywhere pursuing the vendor unfortunately. But hey, neither I nor most of the people on this forum are the experts, so go with the advice you have had from the professionals - BHS legal team, the equine solicitor, whatever - not from a forum where every unqualified to comment tom dick and harry has their say. 



A degenerative joint disease and a serious problem with the respiratory system is quite a disabling combination. I worry for you that you may spend a lot more money trying to put this horse right, only to end up with a paddock ornament at the end of it. That is why a lot of people are suggesting you put to sleep straight away - to avoid a lot more heartache and throwing good money after bad. Again, we aren't actually in a position to make an expert judgement on this, so please act on the advice of your vet, and discuss all options and all the costs and prognoses with them. My gut feeling is that somebody else has already come to the end of the road trying to help this horse, wasn't brave enough to make the decision to PTS themself or wanted to "give the horse another chance" by palming the horse's not inconsiderable problems and treatment costs on someone else - its a pretty common reason to want to take an otherwise nice horse to an auction.

Please talk to the professionals on how to go forward. I'm sure we can help if you would like some suggestions as to the kind of information you need to find out in order to proceed.
		
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Finally.  Someone giving the OP a reasoned, articulate and helpful response.  

Goodness, it feels like the median age on this thread is about 12 judging by all the catty, hasty, judgmental replies.

P


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## PolarSkye (20 May 2012)

magoodle said:



			Thank you all for your positive and negative replies .

l have managed to have a nice chat with the vendor of the horse this morning ,and am pleased to say HES GOING BACK THIS AFTERNOON !!

i am getting a refund ,less his expenses ,and im now relieved and probably in many of your eyes LUCKY 

silly -yes 
troll-no 

once again thank you all
		
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I'm very glad you are getting a refund . . . lesson learned perhaps?  However, I do wonder what will happen to this horse now.  Some other unsuspecting person will doubtless fall prey to this (in light of this thread) unscrupulous vendor . . . and the horse will continue to be passed around.

Sad really.

P


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## Parker79 (20 May 2012)

marydoll said:



			Out of all the replies the op has had only a few blunt ones,so i dont agree with this comment, most have simply stated she made a classic error in the way she bought, and will struggle to get her money back, thats not having a go, thats answering her post.
		
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Well clearly I disagree, and others have commented too about the harsh replies...including the OP.  

OP - glad its worked out, I feel sorry for the horse but I agree that its a big ask to take on a horse you have known for 2 minutes who is not fit for purpose.


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## Ladydragon (20 May 2012)

magoodle said:



			Thank you all for your positive and negative replies .

l have managed to have a nice chat with the vendor of the horse this morning ,and am pleased to say HES GOING BACK THIS AFTERNOON !!

i am getting a refund ,less his expenses ,and im now relieved and probably in many of your eyes LUCKY
		
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Good to hear you've been able to sort things and will be in a position to hopefully buy one that is suitable for your needs...

I just hope, for the horse's sake, the seller gets a proper medical evaluation and deals with that properly rather than offering him straight back up for sale...


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## Crugeran Celt (20 May 2012)

So pleased for you that you have managed to sort this out. I do worry about the outcome for this poor horse but the vendor will now have to make the difficult decision as to pts or not, not fair that you were possibly left with that decision though. Good luck finding another horse and would advice that if buying privately lots of people will allow you to try the horse for a week or two first as genuine people want to see their horse is as happy with the new owner as the new owner is with the horse! All the best.


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## JingleTingle (20 May 2012)

horserider said:



			Amazing isn't it ? So many experts on here that can diagnose the severity, possible prognosis and treatment costs of a horse without seeing it.

Throwaway horses in a society where nothing is valued.
		
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Perfectly put.

Cant be reading all the posts as it really is a witch hunt now. It doesn't help the OP at all by trying to out do each other with your dismissive and 'oh so knowledgeable' and nasty comments. But of course very few of you actually have any interest in handing out sensible and helpful advice have you - its all part of the H&H habit of pouring scorn and derision on just about anybody you feel hasn't enough b****s to give you as good back.

To those of you who have managed to get a word in edgeways with the morons and offer useful advice I take my hat of to you - you have more stamina than me!


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## Crugeran Celt (20 May 2012)

BBW said:



			The horse clearly has issue's which the OP was not willing to sort out, therefore horse should be pts rather than left to suffer. NO horse, dog, cat or human should EVER be left to suffer!!

OP I'm glad you have sorted the situation out, I hope you find yourself a nice horse, I also hope the horse gets the best treatment from wherever it goes next.
		
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I agree but not sure op's vet advised pts but you obviously know better!


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## JingleTingle (20 May 2012)

Sorry - since posting I now see that the horse is being returned. I am very happy that it has a good outcome for you OP.


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## Wagtail (20 May 2012)

What a good result for you, OP. I hope all goes well for the poor horse too, though I doubt it some how.


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## Marydoll (20 May 2012)

magoodle said:



			Thank you all for your positive and negative replies .

l have managed to have a nice chat with the vendor of the horse this morning ,and am pleased to say HES GOING BACK THIS AFTERNOON !!

i am getting a refund ,less his expenses ,and im now relieved and probably in many of your eyes LUCKY 

silly -yes 
troll-no 

once again thank you all
		
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Glad youve had a good outcome op


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## touchstone (20 May 2012)

Pleased to hear that it has been resolved for you op, fwiw I'd opt for a trial and vetting before parting with that much money, just to save so much worry and heartache; but I'm sure you will next time.


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## jhoward (20 May 2012)

Crugeran Celt said:



			If the dog or any other animal was happy and not in pain or unacceptable discomfort then yes I would keep it. We are all different but all my animals and I have quite a few would be given the chance of a comfortable life. I chose to have them I have to care for them, thats the deal.
		
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but not all people buy a horse to end up having it as a large pet, if ANY animal is lame etc then its in pain, its suffereing. more to the point theres pleanty of HEALTHY horses needing homes in this country. 

the op clearly didnt want a stable full issues. naive, stupid what ever. at the end of the day its not what she wanted so she needs to consider her options. 

tbh from the soundss of it, it would be far kinder to pts.


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## dunkley (20 May 2012)

Ladydragon said:



			I just hope, for the horse's sake, the seller gets a proper medical evaluation and deals with that properly rather than offering him straight back up for sale...
		
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As if.



wonkey_donkey said:



			Don't be surprised if the seller turns up and gives you a lot less of your money than your expecting. I'm very surprised your getting to send the horse back TBH  !!
		
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^^^^^



Crugeran Celt said:



			So pleased for you that you have managed to sort this out. I do worry about the outcome for this poor horse but the vendor will now have to make the difficult decision as to pts or not, not fair that you were possibly left with that decision though. Good luck finding another horse and would advice that if buying privately lots of people will allow you to try the horse for a week or two first as genuine people want to see their horse is as happy with the new owner as the new owner is with the horse! All the best.
		
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Somehow I don't actually think the vendor has the horse's best interests at heart. 



Wagtail said:



			What a good result for you, OP. I hope all goes well for the poor horse too, though I doubt it some how.
		
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Call me a cynic - it will be back at the sales before you can blink.  Because of course the 'issues' were a total surprise to the vendor.............

Hopefully the OP has learned a valuable lesson.  I am sorry she has had to go through this.  Indeed we can all make mistakes, but I cannot ever imagine spending £3k on a horse without a proper trial/vetting etc.  Incredibly naive, particularly from someone who's professional qualification will mean other, less qualified and experienced would-be purchasers would feel confident to ask her to accompany them/advise at viewings.


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## Natch (20 May 2012)

Crugeran Celt said:



			I hope you never find yourself with a horse that can live perfectly happy left in a field to retire as you would obviously pts, lets hope that you are not on the recieving end of this attitude as you get older and less mobile!
		
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Oh come on. Some people (myself included) would be happy to keep a horse who couldn't work but could have a decent quality of life as a pet. Others wouldn't. There is no shame in PTS if you aren't prepared to keep a horse as a pet - they are expensive creatures. Its far more humane than many other options: selling without being honest and letting it take its chances at a market, for example. Which I am greatly disappointed to see at least one regular and well respected user has suggested as the fate for this horse... _again _ I hope I merely misunderstood a sarcastic response. 



magoodle said:



			Thank you all for your positive and negative replies .

l have managed to have a nice chat with the vendor of the horse this morning ,and am pleased to say HES GOING BACK THIS AFTERNOON !!

i am getting a refund ,less his expenses ,and im now relieved and probably in many of your eyes LUCKY 

silly -yes 
troll-no 

once again thank you all
		
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Thank goodness for that. I hope he does not take off much in the way of expenses. I bet you've learnt lessons about auctions, vendor status and reputation, and the reasons why many horses end up at auction, too.



PolarSkye said:



			Finally.  Someone giving the OP a reasoned, articulate and helpful response.
		
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Wagtail said:



			What a good result for you, OP. I hope all goes well for the poor horse too, though I doubt it some how.
		
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Yes, this is definately a concern. I wonder if the OP is able to go and watch the sale for the next few weeks. She may be able to have a quiet word in the ear of any interested parties, or the auctioneers (well, they sound as if they know about it anyway). I think the key will be to leave money, purse, handbags and transport _at home_ this time, and have a heavy friend to sit on her hands


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## blood_magik (20 May 2012)

ETA: just seen the horse is going back so comments are null and void


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## Littlelegs (20 May 2012)

Glad for the ops sake she has got a refund. But from the horses pov, being pts would have been preferable than what is most likely to happen now, back through the sales again, and where does a lame & broken winded horse go from there? 
  Funny that those saying the op has a duty to the horse & paying vet fees etc rather than being 'throw away' & pts are all really happy its going back to a seller who'll put an unhealthy horse through a sales. But no, those saying pts are obviously heartless, another sales ring is far more in the horses interest. Personally, I'd ask for a partial refund as the horse isn't fit for purpose, keep it & either treat or pts dependant on funds. Not hand it back to an unscrupulous vendor.


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## dunkley (20 May 2012)

littlelegs said:



			Glad for the ops sake she has got a refund. But from the horses pov, being pts would have been preferable than what is most likely to happen now, back through the sales again, and where does a lame & broken winded horse go from there? 
  Funny that those saying the op has a duty to the horse & paying vet fees etc rather than being 'throw away' & pts are all really happy its going back to a seller who'll put an unhealthy horse through a sales. But no, those saying pts are obviously heartless, another sales ring is far more in the horses interest. Personally, I'd ask for a partial refund as the horse isn't fit for purpose, keep it & either treat or pts dependant on funds. Not hand it back to an unscrupulous vendor.
		
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Very good point.


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## Auslander (20 May 2012)

Miss L Toe said:



			AI= British Horse Society Assistant Instructor, someone who has more than average knowledge of things horsey
		
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If only! The BHSAI requires a very very basic knowledge/standard of riding. I train people for it, and am therefore painfully aware that people with very limited knowledge can pass easily, when they are a very long way away from being professional horse people. It serves a purpose as an introductory level qualification, but is no more than that.


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## lachlanandmarcus (20 May 2012)

I actually dont think that the people who have been critical are being excessively harsh on OP, since buying a horse without riding it or vetting it etc is just about the most mad way to buy a horse there can be just from common sense without special knowledge, especially where the horse has previously been consigned to what I take to be a general auction (not a breed specific sale or performance sale which are very different) and not sold. You do only need to have read a childrens pony book to learn that rule about auctions, horses are there for a reason and though some are genuine or just unbroken youngstock, older ridden horses are usually there for a reason to do with behaviour or health. 

I am pleased for the op if they manage to get a refund but I do not agree that someone who has had enough experience of horses to get their AI should not have known to run a mile rather than buy in this way. 

I hope no Nigerian princes send them an email asking to use their bank account for a week 

I also feel sorry for the horse as I suspect he will be resold/reauctioned without the issues being mentioned, much like horses at dealers you have vetted and who fail and the dealer doesnt seem very shocked/disappointed (as they are planning to see if the next buyer/mug bothers with a vetting or not....). I hope I am wrong.


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## magoodle (20 May 2012)

Lets get one thing straight here ....

i did ride the horse prior to purchase (i never said i didnt ) 

Horse was ridden in arena at my yard for 40 mins ,behaved perfectly and seemed fine in every aspect 

l am not 16 ,i am 45 ,have worked with horses since i left school ,i am not a troll,i have bought and sold many horses including one that competed at badminton 

The horse has gone,i got my refund which i was perfectly happy about ,and the original vendor has got a copy of my vet report


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## Clippy (20 May 2012)

magoodle said:



			Lets get one thing straight here ....

i did ride the horse prior to purchase (i never said i didnt ) 

Horse was ridden in arena at my yard for 40 mins ,behaved perfectly and seemed fine in every aspect 

l am not 16 ,i am 45 ,have worked with horses since i left school ,i am not a troll,i have bought and sold many horses including one that competed at badminton 

The horse has gone,i got my refund which i was perfectly happy about ,and the original vendor has got a copy of my vet report
		
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I think you did well to get your refund and hope some of the less helpful comments in this thread won't stop you from posting again


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## Black_Horse_White (20 May 2012)

I paid £3500 for a horse, had him on trial for 2 weeks in that time he passed a vetting. Private sale too, 11 months later he was PTS cause ringbone. So not riding the horse or having them vetted doesn't make a difference in some instances. I'm glad you've had a good outcome and I truely hope the horse has one too.


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## LollyDolly (20 May 2012)

littlelegs said:



			Glad for the ops sake she has got a refund. But from the horses pov, being pts would have been preferable than what is most likely to happen now, back through the sales again, and where does a lame & broken winded horse go from there? 
  Funny that those saying the op has a duty to the horse & paying vet fees etc rather than being 'throw away' & pts are all really happy its going back to a seller who'll put an unhealthy horse through a sales. But no, those saying pts are obviously heartless, another sales ring is far more in the horses interest. Personally, I'd ask for a partial refund as the horse isn't fit for purpose, keep it & either treat or pts dependant on funds. Not hand it back to an unscrupulous vendor.
		
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^^This.


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## Elsbells (20 May 2012)

Black_Horse_White said:



			I paid £3500 for a horse, had him on trial for 2 weeks in that time he passed a vetting. Private sale too, 11 months later he was PTS cause ringbone. So not riding the horse or having them vetted doesn't make a difference in some instances. I'm glad you've had a good outcome and I truely hope the horse has one too.
		
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Was he insured!?

I know that you've sadly had a few letdowns and heartbreaks regarding horses bought in the past and I really feel for you, but regardless and as cold hearted as it sounds I have to say, that's a lot of money to anyone


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## Black_Horse_White (20 May 2012)

And he was worth every penny, he was the perfect horse for me. Our second show we got 5 firsts. Yes he was isured but that didn't make it any less heartbreaking :-(


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## Elsbells (20 May 2012)

Black_Horse_White said:



			And he was worth every penny, he was the perfect horse for me. Our second show we got 5 firsts. Yes he was isured but that didn't make it any less heartbreaking :-(
		
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 That's the worst. So sorry.


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## Colleen_Miss_Tom (21 May 2012)

I'm not going over the whole thread, 

but just wanted to pick up on a point ...Don't have to answer it op but I'm just really curious and not being rude .

You say you don't need lessons because you have your AI ......Why not ? 

I know of several ladies your age who have their AI and very very knowledgable but they still take lessons or refresher courses.

Like I say, I'm not being rude, just curious as to why you think you don't need lessons  


Col x


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## Parker79 (21 May 2012)

Colleen_Miss_Tom said:



			I'm not going over the whole thread, 

but just wanted to pick up on a point ...Don't have to answer it op but I'm just really curious and not being rude .

You say you don't need lessons because you have your AI ......Why not ? 

I know of several ladies your age who have their AI and very very knowledgable but they still take lessons or refresher courses.

Like I say, I'm not being rude, just curious as to why you think you don't need lessons  


Col x
		
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OP didn't mean she doesn't need lessons at all...she was replying to a post by someone being very rude who made assumptions that she was a total novice...I believe the poster said 'go and book yourself some lessons at a local riding school' to which she replied 'I don't need lessons I am an AI....she was trying to make the point she isn't a novice.


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## Colleen_Miss_Tom (21 May 2012)

The op could have put it differently though ....dont you think ?


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## Parker79 (21 May 2012)

Colleen_Miss_Tom said:



			The op could have put it differently though ....dont you think ? 

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Yes maybe...but I think she was in shock and replying in hast to a number of frankly horrible responses!


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## Colleen_Miss_Tom (21 May 2012)

Hmmm thats hho for you ......Everyone has their opinion and that is all it is at the end of the day


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## Flame_ (21 May 2012)

Parker79 said:



			OP didn't mean she doesn't need lessons at all...she was replying to a post by someone being very rude who made assumptions that she was a total novice...I believe the poster said 'go and book yourself some lessons at a local riding school' to which she replied 'I don't need lessons I am an AI....she was trying to make the point she isn't a novice.
		
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Excuse me? Rude I can do but I don't believe my post on this thread was rude in any way, shape or form. If you want rude, go on, ask for it, I'm at a loose end...

Yes, an assumption was made based on the dubious and incredibly naive way the OP went about trying to buy a horse, not helped by the dubious grammar in the title. I genuinely advised her on what I thought she'd be best doing for herself and the horse and apologized for advising her to get a instructor who could help her when the OP explained she was more experienced than, IMO, the first post suggested. 

You don't have to like my advice, you don't have to take it and you don't even have to read it if you don't want to, but how dare you tell people I'm being rude just for giving advice which was requested?


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## Marydoll (22 May 2012)

Can i just add to this, just because youve an AI doesnt mean you wont benefit from lessons, its the lower end of the BHS equestrian qualifications, and AI'S, like most forward thinking riders will hopefully aknowledge they still have a lot to learn. So a reply to get lessons, whether AI or not is a good suggestion.


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## competitiondiva (22 May 2012)

OK not reading all your replies here!! (too many and too tired!!) AI or not you imo were very naive. Conned or not, I don't think you stand a hope in hells chance of getting your money back here.  Regarding the auctioneers, I would be very very surprised if the sale was covered by them if it was sold outside the ring in the carpark in a private deal, the auctioneers would not have received their auctioneers fee, so you cannot expect them to cover this sale.

£3K imo is alot to gamble on a carpark deal, but that's just me

Good luck with whatever you decide to do with this horse, learn from your experience and better luck next time, though would personally recommend you take an experienced friend, helper, colleague with you next time.


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## HBM1 (22 May 2012)

deleted


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## Parker79 (22 May 2012)

Flame_ said:



			Excuse me? Rude I can do but I don't believe my post on this thread was rude in any way, shape or form. If you want rude, go on, ask for it, I'm at a loose end...

Yes, an assumption was made based on the dubious and incredibly naive way the OP went about trying to buy a horse, not helped by the dubious grammar in the title. I genuinely advised her on what I thought she'd be best doing for herself and the horse and apologized for advising her to get a instructor who could help her when the OP explained she was more experienced than, IMO, the first post suggested. 

You don't have to like my advice, you don't have to take it and you don't even have to read it if you don't want to, but how dare you tell people I'm being rude just for giving advice which was requested?
		
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How dare I????.......I gave my opinion on something that was posted! I have no intention of getting into an argument...IMO your comment was unnessary.... As for your comment 'ask for it I'm at a loose end' well I'm sorry you feel that angry but I think that says a lot about you.

I have heard enough now.....delete seems a very good sugdestion!


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## Flame_ (22 May 2012)

Parker79 said:



			How dare I????.......I gave my opinion on something that was posted! I have no intention of getting into an argument...IMO your comment was unnessary.... As for your comment 'ask for it I'm at a loose end' well I'm sorry you feel that angry but I think that says a lot about you.

I have heard enough now.....delete seems a very good sugdestion!
		
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I'm not angry, but I think you're out of order. Point out this alleged rudeness then. I think you just don't like or agree with what I advised, which is fine by me and a difference of opinion, but making up rubbish about rudeness is just damn cheeky.


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## TrasaM (22 May 2012)

How is that a post asking for advice on the legal position after buying an unsound horse end up being a rather personal attack on someone's intelligence and horsemanship?  

  Well done on getting your money back.


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## competitiondiva (22 May 2012)

TrasaM said:



			Well done on getting your money back.
		
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As I said in my post, I hadn't read all the replies, and so I wasn't aware the OP had gotten her money back, and so quickly, wow, hats off to you, I really didn't think you'd see a penny of that again....


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## Tinypony (22 May 2012)

Good on you Op!  I never expected that but it's great news.


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## gracey (23 May 2012)

i feel bad for the poor horse!


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## tinap (24 May 2012)

I've only read upto page 8 so apologies if this has already been mentioned!

I do feel for you op as it must be a very horrible thing to happen. However it strikes me very odd that anyone would pay £3k for a horse & not get it vetted. 

It was bought at home/yard so nothing to do with the auctioneeers, so surely there was nothing stopping it being vetted & then the problems should have been picked up before you bought it.

I wish you all the best with this horse & hope you can get it something like sound, but unless you can prove they were a dealer & be prepared for a possibly expensive fight, I think you would be better off putting your time & money into helping the horse instead & chalking it up to experience, hopefully with a lesson learned. xx


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## tinap (24 May 2012)

Apologies again! 

Just posted my above comment only to see that it looks like you have got sorted! Well done xx


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## Suelin (24 May 2012)

magoodle said:



			If you seriously think that because you have an AI you don't need lessons then you have a problem IMO.  In life and with horses you never stop learning.  Keep up the lessons.
		
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## Patterdale (24 May 2012)

She meant riding school lessons. Look at what she was replying to.


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## all about Romeo (25 May 2012)

Honey08 said:



			What exactly did the vet mean by "not right in his hocks"?  Could he be rested, or treated?  I don't see why people are saying "put down"!  We don't even know what the problem is.

Totally agree!!!
		
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## Crugeran Celt (25 May 2012)

Naturally said:



			Oh come on. Some people (myself included) would be happy to keep a horse who couldn't work but could have a decent quality of life as a pet. Others wouldn't. There is no shame in PTS if you aren't prepared to keep a horse as a pet - they are expensive creatures. Its far more humane than many other options: selling without being honest and letting it take its chances at a market, for example. Which I am greatly disappointed to see at least one regular and well respected user has suggested as the fate for this horse... _again _ I hope I merely misunderstood a sarcastic response.


I do see my horses as pets so my opinion is very different to most it would seem but I am so glad that I am the way I am. As previously said I feel very stongly about people who discard a horse as they are no longer useful. I find that attitude really sad.
		
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## all about Romeo (25 May 2012)

I do see my horses as pets so my opinion is very different to most it would seem but I am so glad that I am the way I am. As previously said I feel very stongly about people who discard a horse as they are no longer useful. I find that attitude really sad.[/QUOTE]

Im the same... some peoples disregard for there horses when they are no longer useful makes me so angry!!  Its all so easy to just put a bullet through its head! sorry PTS...


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## Crugeran Celt (25 May 2012)

Im the same... some peoples disregard for there horses when they are no longer useful makes me so angry!!  Its all so easy to just put a bullet through its head! sorry PTS...[/QUOTE]

So glad to find someone who feels the same, I was beginning to think that all horse owners were a synical hard bunch who are only prepared to keep an animal that gives something back! I love just watching mine in the field.


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## all about Romeo (25 May 2012)

Crugeran Celt said:



			Im the same... some peoples disregard for there horses when they are no longer useful makes me so angry!!  Its all so easy to just put a bullet through its head! sorry PTS...
		
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So glad to find someone who feels the same, I was beginning to think that all horse owners were a synical hard bunch who are only prepared to keep an animal that gives something back! I love just watching mine in the field.[/QUOTE]

 I was starting to think the same... They try and justify it by saying things like " it might end up being abused" or "im being responsible" 

Why must the horses life have to end when the owners start to see it as a burden? 

I know they can be expensive but surely you understand that when you first get it??? 

Look after your horse and he will look after you. 

Im not sure about doing any cross country with my horse incase he gets injured :/


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## Marydoll (25 May 2012)

all about Romeo said:



			So glad to find someone who feels the same, I was beginning to think that all horse owners were a synical hard bunch who are only prepared to keep an animal that gives something back! I love just watching mine in the field.
		
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 I was starting to think the same... They try and justify it by saying things like " it might end up being abused" or "im being responsible" 

Why must the horses life have to end when the owners start to see it as a burden? 

I know they can be expensive but surely you understand that when you first get it??? 

Look after your horse and he will look after you. 

Im not sure about doing any cross country with my horse incase he gets injured :/[/QUOTE]

How would you feel of you did pass on a younger, lame horse as a companion, only to find it was then buted up to the hilt and being given out to others to ride into the ground?
Or the horse you pass on is sold on to novices who dont know its lame and ride it when its in pain and dont know any better ....... I personally feel i owe a horse that has served me well better than that, and if that means pts rather than risking an. Uncertain future, thats what id do, that is taking responsibility for the animal, sending off to an uncertain future is a cop out in my eyes


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## Ibblebibble (25 May 2012)

oh lord 'all about romeo' are you going to trawl through the whole of HHO looking for threads where you can have a rant about people putting horses to sleep why not just start your own thread and have a proper discussion rather than ranting incoherently more people might take you seriously if you managed to discuss your opinion rather than shout it at everyone


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## pookie (25 May 2012)

Ibblebibble said:



			oh lord 'all about romeo' are you going to trawl through the whole of HHO looking for threads where you can have a rant about people putting horses to sleep why not just start your own thread and have a proper discussion rather than ranting incoherently more people might take you seriously if you managed to discuss your opinion rather than shout it at everyone

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It'd REALLY help if the soapbox was brought out for the right threads...and not just ones where All About Romeo has misread or not read what people are actually saying.

Would really help his/her case if he/she didn't keep finding threads where the horses are actually quite ill and the owner is trying to do their best for them.


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## Marydoll (25 May 2012)

pookie said:



			It'd REALLY help if the soapbox was brought out for the right threads...and not just ones where All About Romeo has misread or not read what people are actually saying.

Would really help his/her case if he/she didn't keep finding threads where the horses are actually quite ill and the owner is trying to do their best for them.
		
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^^^^^ this
Im still not entirely sure theyre not trolling tbh


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## Amaranta (25 May 2012)

pookie said:



			It'd REALLY help if the soapbox was brought out for the right threads...and not just ones where All About Romeo has misread or not read what people are actually saying.

Would really help his/her case if he/she didn't keep finding threads where the horses are actually quite ill and the owner is trying to do their best for them.
		
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Quite, I am also wondering if AAR and Crugeran Celt are one and the same, their posting style is so similar


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## all about Romeo (25 May 2012)

How would you feel of you did pass on a younger, lame horse as a companion, only to find it was then buted up to the hilt and being given out to others to ride into the ground?
Or the horse you pass on is sold on to novices who dont know its lame and ride it when its in pain and dont know any better ....... I personally feel i owe a horse that has served me well better than that, and if that means pts rather than risking an. Uncertain future, thats what id do, that is taking responsibility for the animal, sending off to an uncertain future is a cop out in my eyes[/QUOTE]

If I decided to pass on a horse, I would carefully consider potential homes, have a contract with the new owner and regularly check on the horse...
not just wash my hands of it.


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## pookie (25 May 2012)

marydoll said:



			^^^^^ this
Im still not entirely sure theyre not trolling tbh
		
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If they are, they're not doing a very good job of it. Just making themselves look a bit silly.



Amaranta said:



			Quite, I am also wondering if AAR and Crugeran Celt are one and the same, their posting style is so similar 

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Nicely spotted.


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## all about Romeo (25 May 2012)

pookie said:



			It'd REALLY help if the soapbox was brought out for the right threads...and not just ones where All About Romeo has misread or not read what people are actually saying.

Would really help his/her case if he/she didn't keep finding threads where the horses are actually quite ill and the owner is trying to do their best for them.
		
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So I am not entitled to disagree with people who tell this poor owner to destroy this horse? so much for a discussion board...


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## pookie (25 May 2012)

all about Romeo said:



			So I am not entitled to disagree with people who tell this poor owner to destroy this horse? so much for a discussion board...
		
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Melodrama aside, you really do need to learn to read threads in their entirety.


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## all about Romeo (25 May 2012)

Ibblebibble said:



			oh lord 'all about romeo' are you going to trawl through the whole of HHO looking for threads where you can have a rant about people putting horses to sleep why not just start your own thread and have a proper discussion rather than ranting incoherently more people might take you seriously if you managed to discuss your opinion rather than shout it at everyone

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Im not ranting at all... some of you just don't seem to like it when someone disagrees with what you have to say... 
Like you said this is a discussion board so Im I not entitled to my opinion?
Who is shouting?


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## Marydoll (25 May 2012)

all about Romeo said:



			How would you feel of you did pass on a younger, lame horse as a companion, only to find it was then buted up to the hilt and being given out to others to ride into the ground?
Or the horse you pass on is sold on to novices who dont know its lame and ride it when its in pain and dont know any better ....... I personally feel i owe a horse that has served me well better than that, and if that means pts rather than risking an. Uncertain future, thats what id do, that is taking responsibility for the animal, sending off to an uncertain future is a cop out in my eyes
		
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If I decided to pass on a horse, I would carefully consider potential homes, have a contract with the new owner and regularly check on the horse...
not just wash my hands of it.[/QUOTE]

Im really sorry to burst your bubble  but imo youre doing a diservice to any horse you try to do this with, if people are loaning 99% are going to want a ridable horse, not one needing regular vet care and analgesia costing minimal £60 a month on top of all the other costs 
Are you really so naive that you think loan horses and free horses dont just sometimes "dissappear" ...... Usually right to the meat man, youll definitely make him a happy man


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## all about Romeo (25 May 2012)

Amaranta said:



			Quite, I am also wondering if AAR and Crugeran Celt are one and the same, their posting style is so similar 

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Is it really so surprising that someone has the same opinion as me that I have to be accused of being 2 people?


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## all about Romeo (25 May 2012)

marydoll said:



			If I decided to pass on a horse, I would carefully consider potential homes, have a contract with the new owner and regularly check on the horse...
not just wash my hands of it.
		
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Im really sorry to burst your bubble  but imo youre doing a diservice to any horse you try to do this with, if people are loaning 99% are going to want a ridable horse, not one needing regular vet care and analgesia costing minimal £60 a month on top of all the other costs 
Are you really so naive that you think loan horses and free horses dont just sometimes "dissappear" ...... Usually right to the meat man, youll definitely make him a happy man[/QUOTE]

Whats the difference between selling a horse and giving a horse away then? (other then money changing hands)


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## texel (25 May 2012)

It seems you have covered most avenues you can take in a situation like this.  

However whilst you may still be chasing the legal side of things lets focus on the horse in the meantime.  

What wind issues has he exactly?  What other health/confirmation issues does the horse have?  How old is he supposed to be ? 

What did you want to use the horse for ?


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## Parker79 (25 May 2012)

texel said:



			It seems you have covered most avenues you can take in a situation like this.  

However whilst you may still be chasing the legal side of things lets focus on the horse in the meantime.  

What wind issues has he exactly?  What other health/confirmation issues does the horse have?  How old is he supposed to be ? 

What did you want to use the horse for ?
		
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The horse went back to the original owner


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## Marydoll (25 May 2012)

all about Romeo said:



			Im really sorry to burst your bubble  but imo youre doing a diservice to any horse you try to do this with, if people are loaning 99% are going to want a ridable horse, not one needing regular vet care and analgesia costing minimal £60 a month on top of all the other costs 
Are you really so naive that you think loan horses and free horses dont just sometimes "dissappear" ...... Usually right to the meat man, youll definitely make him a happy man
		
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Whats the difference between selling a horse and giving a horse away then? (other then money changing hands)[/QUOTE]

You really arent getting the point are you, i wouldnt sell either, a horse that isnt sound and cant work, which cant be kept due to circumstances is better pts than passed around by naive people thinking theyre doing it a favour, the sales are full of horses that are like this,free to a good home or sent to loan homes along with the sound horses that are there en mass due to indiscriminate breeding, most end up at slaughter of even worse exported to slaughter.


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## TED2010 (25 May 2012)

marydoll said:



			Whats the difference between selling a horse and giving a horse away then? (other then money changing hands)
		
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You really arent getting the point are you, i wouldnt sell either, a horse that isnt sound and cant work, which cant be kept due to circumstances is better pts than passed around by naive people thinking theyre doing it a favour, the sales are full of horses that are like this,free to a good home or sent to loan homes along with the sound horses that are there en mass due to indiscriminate breeding, most end up at slaughter of even worse exported to slaughter.[/QUOTE]

Well said!!


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## DragonSlayer (25 May 2012)




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## Marydoll (25 May 2012)

DragonSlayer said:










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Break out the big bag  im still not entirely sure its not trolling, but im not going out tonight so i'll bite a bit longer lol


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## DragonSlayer (25 May 2012)

marydoll said:



			Break out the big bag  im still not entirely sure its not trolling, but im not going out tonight so i'll bite a bit longer lol

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Here is the big bag. Off to bed meself though, as off on a road trip down south in the morning for the weekend.  

Have a good one all!


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## Marydoll (25 May 2012)

DragonSlayer said:



			Here is the big bag. Off to bed meself though, as off on a road trip down south in the morning for the weekend.  

Have a good one all!








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Nitey night have a safe trip


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## Crugeran Celt (26 May 2012)

Amaranta said:



			Quite, I am also wondering if AAR and Crugeran Celt are one and the same, their posting style is so similar 

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No we are not, sorry if I have upset anyone with my opinions but as previously said my horses are pets to me and I really am not against pts if that is the best option for the horse. Also I would prefer a horse or any animal pts than passed from a bad home to a worse one. I do not compete and don't need a horse who can jump or complete a three day event so if as one of mine doesn't fit the bill then that is just to bad, I keep him and hack him and just enjoy what he is without any great expectations. My posting style, as you put it is just my opinion and I do feel that a lot of horse owners see them as a machine to do a job and if they no longer are capable for that then they are dispensable that is just not me.


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