# (Rant alert ...!) it's NOT my dog's job ...



## Greylegs (16 January 2015)

... To teach your dog some manners!!! That's your job! 

I have an 8 year old collie/staffie cross who is generally well mannered but has been known to be a bit grumpy with other male dogs. With that in mind we're always careful to ensure he's well under control if we meet another dog when out and about and do out best to prevent them from sniffing our boy's rear end .... Something dogs do, but which our boy really hates ...! But if one more owner, on being asked to call their dog away, says .... "Oh let him get stuck in, my dog needs to learn some manners. ..." I think I'll strangle them with my dog lead!!!! ARRGH!! 

We're trying to ensure our dog doesn't growl or snap at unwanted intruders into his "personal space" but, somehow, other owners think it's ok. Why can't people either get their animals under control or teach them some manners .... Drives me nuts!!!! 

.... And breathe .....


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## california dreaming (16 January 2015)

I feel your pain and sympathise.  Sometimes people try harder to get their dogs under control when you tell them that yours has an infectious skin disease that is undergoing treatment.  They normally keep their dog away from yours then.


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## PucciNPoni (17 January 2015)

california dreaming said:



			I feel your pain and sympathise.  Sometimes people try harder to get their dogs under control when you tell them that yours has an infectious skin disease that is undergoing treatment.  They normally keep their dog away from yours then.
		
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lol, now that's brilliant!

There was a young boxer in the practice the other day - most laid back youngster ever.  In the exam room was another boxer, no relation and just coming out to reception.  The man with the boxer (said boxer entire and a bit of a bully) squares up to the youngster and puffed himself up and started growling.  Youngster and young girl owner already in a corner.  Young boxer stood up a bit taller.  Older boxer pushes him back even further, man has arm and lead fully extended to let him  Young boxer started to growl and bark in stress.  Nurse tells man off for letting this go on (quite rightly) and he says "Well the other dog was standing up to him and he shouldn't have".  WTF?!  How about not allowing your dog to be a bully and then blaming the other dog for standing up to him!?


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## lastchancer (17 January 2015)

There's a hell of a lot of really idiotic dog owners.


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## gunnergundog (17 January 2015)

california dreaming said:



			Sometimes people try harder to get their dogs under control when you tell them that yours has an infectious skin disease that is undergoing treatment.  They normally keep their dog away from yours then.
		
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Am amazed that noone in my locality has reported me to the rspca or some other ineffective organisation given the number of times I shout out that one of mine has sarcoptic mange!


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## gunnergundog (17 January 2015)

OP, you have my sympathy.  We have always had people who allow their dogs to run up out of control in my area but the latest seems to be allowing them then to stand and bark in my dog's face.  NO, he is not saying 'hello', he is f-ing and blinding at my dog and if you do nothing to stop it then all of my dogs will tell him off and teach him some manners - some of them being more patient/tolerant than others.


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## Cinnamontoast (17 January 2015)

Worse, the idiots who tell you their dog is friendly, it's ok, as you frantically shout that yours is DA and would they mind awfully recalling theirs!! Of course, I'd be a terrible person if their dog was attacked. Call me nuts, but I'd object to a stranger bouncing up to me too!


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## Greylegs (17 January 2015)

Well, I'm glad it's not just me. People just shout "it's ok, he just wants to play...!" As if that makes it ok. I seriously heard this from the owner of a massive Great Dane (I mean, I've seen smaller ponies, it was genuinely huge) as it loped over towards my boy, who's about the size of a springer spaniel. 

Never thought of the infectious disease thing though. Good idea. I'll try that some time. &#128563;


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## Bradsmum (17 January 2015)

Sorry but if I knew my dog was likely to object to other dogs in its space in a public area/footpath, I would put a muzzle on it.


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## planete (17 January 2015)

I walk a succession of foster dogs with issues in dog walking areas.  I teach them to accept a muzzle, teach them to watch me and come back close to me when other dogs come near (they are on a training lead at that stage), put myself in a strong protective stance between them and other dogs.  In time when they have relaxed enough I teach them to sit by my side or even behind me when another dog approaches.  I have stopped shouting at other people as I found it stopped me concentrating on my dog and was mostly ineffective.  I also feel if I will have an antisocial dog, why should I stop other happy dogs from enjoying themselves?  Not everybody is good at training dogs, some dogs are new to their owners or too young to be fully trained.  In an ideal world we would all be top class trainers with beautifully socialised dogs but we live in the real world.  I also wonder how much an owner's aggressive response to the situation winds an already reactive dog up?


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## blackcob (17 January 2015)

Bradsmum said:



			Sorry but if I knew my dog was likely to object to other dogs in its space in a public area/footpath, I would put a muzzle on it.
		
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My dog's objection to a 'friendly' dog haring up to him and bouncing in his face is to scream in terror and throw himself on the floor - not sure how muzzling him would help in that situation. Far better to apply a lead to the 'he's only being friendly' dog with no recall and owner half a mile away...


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## SusieT (17 January 2015)

planete- what a sensible attitude. I have to say I walk a pack of four and never get issues like this- nor are mine doing things described, but they all walk off lead and dont have issues so maybe other dogs pick up their confidence


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## Greylegs (17 January 2015)

Bradsmum said:



			Sorry but if I knew my dog was likely to object to other dogs in its space in a public area/footpath, I would put a muzzle on it.
		
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In my own dog's defence, he doesn't object to other dogs most of the time and can be walked safely and calmly off lead the vast majority of the time. He has never started a fight and is not aggressive towards other dogs if they are not aggressive towards him. But there are dogs out there who aggressively and persistently abuse his personal space, and he takes exception to this. It's the owners I have a problem with. When I can see my boy is starting to get worried by the over enthusiastic attentions of their animals, they seem to think that me allowing my dog to growl or snap is somehow going to teach their animals some sort of lesson. Why can they not just call their animals to heal or get hold of them. I always put my dog on a lead if I suspect he's going to be worried.


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## SusieT (17 January 2015)

Greylegs- do what I do if I see any potentially problematic dogs - turn and walk the other way sharply (I do this as part of their training so they know that a shouted name and me turning away means come quick or you'll be left behind!) and call your dog. liklihood is your dog will come with you (hopefully!) and the other dog will lose interest.


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## Amymay (17 January 2015)

Greylegs, I do understand your concern and frustration. 

Today my dog was on the beach playing joyfully with 10 other dogs. All off lead, playing with balls and each other. It was fantastic.

If you had come on to the beach with your dog what should all us other owners have done? Because in my (albeit limited experience) a dog on a lead is a magnet. 

I guess I know the answer, but I'm curious.


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## Greylegs (17 January 2015)

amymay said:



			Greylegs, I do understand your concern and frustration. 

Today my dog was on the beach playing joyfully with 10 other dogs. All off lead, playing with balls and each other. It was fantastic.

If you had come on to the beach with your dog what should all us other owners have done? Because in my (albeit limited experience) a dog on a lead is a magnet. 

I guess I know the answer, but I'm curious.
		
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In that situation, I would have probably have seen a large group of dogs playing and taken evasive action by walking away until my dog could have his own space to run in. I wouldn't have let him off the lead and I doubt he would have joined in the game anyway. Our dog loves the beach, (woods/fields/ open spaces generally) but his issues began when he was set upon by dogs who "just wanted to play" and ended up with cracked ribs and other injuries. I don't blame him for being wary tbh ..... 

( ... not sure what you thought I was going to say ...?)


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## Amymay (17 January 2015)

Poor boy, no wonder he's wary.

I thought you might have wanted all the dogs called back under some sort of 'more' control.


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## Greylegs (17 January 2015)

amymay said:



			Poor boy, no wonder he's wary.

I thought you might have wanted all the dogs called back under some sort of 'more' control.
		
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Nope. Not at all. Other dogs are welcome to play and enjoy themselves. They're not welcome to hassle my dog. If that means I have to avoid potentially difficult situations by taking evasive action, then I do. In our area, there's a dog who our boy especially dislikes and we plan the routes and timings of our walks to specifically avoid it, as its owner keeps to a pretty regular routine.


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## Cinnamontoast (17 January 2015)

Bradsmum said:



			Sorry but if I knew my dog was likely to object to other dogs in its space in a public area/footpath, I would put a muzzle on it.
		
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But my very DA springer needs occupying (or disappears into the woods for 8 hours after deer) so we have spent a lot of time getting him to focus on retrieving, which he adores. This keeps him out of trouble, he doesn't leave my side until I throw the ball, then he searches for it, retrieves it, stays by my side.....He will stay in a sit til told to move despite distractions (unless a dog is in his face).

Today, a lovely man asked if he could let off his extremely bouncy puppy to play with mine :eek3: I had to tell him no, one of mine is not friendly. He said his was. I said mine will attack yours, really sorry, I don't want her injured. We weren't taking up the whole field, we kept moving to avoid other dogs, Zak was very focused, but if another dog came up to him, he'd go for it. Sticking a ball in his gob stops him being quite so nasty, so a muzzle is really pointless. Point being, it's not always the answer.


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## Teaselmeg (18 January 2015)

The majority of our walks are in places where I hope we will not meet anyone else, as the more opportunities any reactive dog gets to react/aggress the more ingrained the behaviour becomes. At the same time we do use 'safe' areas to train, where other dogs are most likely to be under control or where we can exit/hide quickly if another dog approaches. Last year I was walking on a very wide rural path when a man came along walking his saluki and talking on the phone. There was about 20 yards width between us,  my lad was on a lead and wearing his muzzle and this very friendly Saluki trotted straight up to him sending Sprocket, who had up until the dog came really close been doing really well at focusing on me, in the orbit ! I several times asked the man to call his dog away, he made a couple of half hearted efforts, then I shouted at him ' which part of a dog on a lead and muzzle' do you not understand ! He ran over and sort of apologised, but Sprocket was so over threshold at that point, we just had to go back to the car. 
So many people with 'nice' dogs don't realise that a lot of perceived aggression is fear based and the last thing you need is any dog, friendly or not,  coming up to your dog. I wish the current trend for dog/dog training programmes on terrestrial TV would flag this up in a way that people understand.


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## SusieT (18 January 2015)

If yours is extremely dog aggressive it needs to be muzzled off lead (regardless of other training issues), or walked in private land with no other dogs or walked on lead.
sorry- not acceptable to walk it off lead in dog walking areas un muzzled if it is known to be extremely dog aggressive as if there are so many scenarios that could go pear shaped not just through what you see as badly mannered other dogs running up to him. 
Sounds like he needs more training or a long line not to disappear off. you can get muzzles you can still treat with.


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## Alec Swan (18 January 2015)

OP,  sorry,  but I am going to disagree with you.  IT IS your dog's job to teach the ignorant and the ill mannered,  their place!  Boys tend to learn from men.  It's rarely the other way around!

Dogs speak 'dog',  and if the owner of the errant and ill-mannered lout who accosted you on your walk can't teach their dog manners,  then the best person to do the education bit,  is your dog! 

Alec.


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## Greylegs (18 January 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			OP,  sorry,  but I am going to disagree with you.  IT IS your dog's job to teach the ignorant and the ill mannered,  their place!  Boys tend to learn from men.  It's rarely the other way around!

Dogs speak 'dog',  and if the owner of the errant and ill-mannered lout who accosted you on your walk can't teach their dog manners,  then the best person to do the education bit,  is your dog! 

Alec.
		
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Sorry Alec .... not when he ends up with cracked ribs and other injuries as a result. My dog is well mannered, friendly and obedient when those around him are too. As you say, "dogs speak dog" but I don't want my dog to have to be in a position of having to defend himself against what he sees as aggression, just because other owners can't get hold of their own animals. There have been many times i've had my boy on a lead, walking calmly, when he's been accosted by loose dogs belonging to other people in spite of my asking them to call their dogs off. I stand by my view that owners should teach dogs good behaviour, discipline and manners and not rely on other dogs to do it for them.


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## Dobiegirl (18 January 2015)

My dogs do educate other rude dogs, its not often another dog wants to take on a male Dobermann but those that do are instantly put in their place. I am not talking really aggressive dogs although if something really wants to fight Diesel he will let them have it, both Darcy & Diesel are very tolerant of other dogs and if they are rude and in their faces and take liberties they will be told that it is not acceptable. They show their teeth,growl and will even pin another dog but will not bite, they have been excellent with all my foster dogs some of whom have no social skills but have learnt as much from them as from me. Darcey was fear aggressive when I had her first as a rescue with her brother Diesel but through training she is the sweetest nature bitch you could wish for and loves to meet other dogs.

My previous Dobermann Fred was a nightmare to begin with, very dog aggressive in that   there was no doubting he wanted to kill other dogs, with training around social dogs he learnt and like my 2 current ones he was fine around other dogs and would tell off rude dogs but not fight them.

OP get a good trainer, walk your dogs with other friendly but polite dogs, socialise him as much as possible and do not allow him off lead if there is the slightest chance he would attack another dog, we cant control other peoples dogs but we can train and control ours.


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## twiggy2 (18 January 2015)

amymay said:



			I thought you might have wanted all the dogs called back under some sort of 'more' control.
		
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why not? it is what the group I walk with do, all the dogs are called back and put on lead or in a close sit till the 'unknown dog has passed unless the owner states they are ok to play


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## GeeGeeboy (18 January 2015)

It's your problem op if your dog is aggressive with other dogs, not other people. I see so many neurotic owners freaking out as soon as they see any other dogs approaching their dogs. So many times I've heard "he's not good with other dogs". This is how there are so many unsocialised dogs with issues these days as they're never allowed off lead or to interact Normally with their own kind.These issues are usually caused by the owners.


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## bonny (18 January 2015)

GeeGeeboy said:



			It's your problem op if your dog is aggressive with other dogs, not other people. I see so many neurotic owners freaking out as soon as they see any other dogs approaching their dogs. So many times I've heard "he's not good with other dogs". This is how there are so many unsocialised dogs with issues these days as they're never allowed off lead or to interact Normally with their own kind.These issues are usually caused by the owners.
		
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I agree with this, with so many of you on here having the same problem with other dogs it's hard not to think the real issue is the paranoid owners not their pets.....the vast majority of dogs that I meet are totally fine, either say hello or just meander past and I simply don't ever meet dogs that ever cause a problem.


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## Mince Pie (18 January 2015)

To be honest, whilst I do agree with the OP, there are some situations where only a dog will get through to another dog. My friend has a rescue terrier, a border terrier x Patterdale (currently at mine whilst my friend is away), who was never socialised as a younger dog - she is now 2. She is quite a bolshy little madam and can be very gobby,  obviously we are working on her dog manners but we recently had a huge helping hand courtesy of our neighbours staffy. We had been chatting to the neighbour about what was going on and he offered to let this staffy meet the terrier, the staffy was an older bitch who tended to mother other dogs. We went out for a walk with the dogs, as predicted the terrier ran up to the staffy gobbing off and bouncing all over her trying to get her to play. The staffy promptly pinned the terrier on her back and told her off, then started playing with her when she had quietened down, any time the terrier was getting too rowdy she put her back in her place. That day has put us weeks ahead in our training hence me thinking it is a good solution to have as a tool, but it should be mutually agreed between both parties beforehand not some random encounter with a strangers dog in the park.


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## Mince Pie (18 January 2015)

bonny said:



			I agree with this, with so many of you on here having the same problem with other dogs it's hard not to think the real issue is the paranoid owners not their pets.....the vast majority of dogs that I meet are totally fine, either say hello or just meander past and I simply don't ever meet dogs that ever cause a problem.
		
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Many times yes, but not always. The terrier on my above post can be a right little cow bag if she takes exception to another dog, and she goes from zero - bitch in less than a second. Both her owner and I are extremely aware of keeping our energy level down as not to affect her in any way.


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## blackcob (18 January 2015)

GeeGeeboy said:



			This is how there are so many unsocialised dogs with issues these days as they're never allowed off lead or to interact Normally with their own kind.These issues are usually caused by the owners.
		
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Yep, but to be specific, the *first* owners. When I'm owner number two doing my very best to rehabilitate a dog that completely missed its critical socialisation window, forgive me if I don't want 'he's only being friendly' setting us back weeks or months of training.

I may be a bit sensitive about this subject at the moment and here's why: back in about October time two off-lead labradors swarmed one of my dogs. I saw them enter the far end of the field and immediately turned round to go another way but they ran the full length of the field to get to us, completely out of the owner's sight. They slammed in to my dog at speed, knocked him off his legs and then pinned him down on the ground. His response was to scream and pee himself in fear. They were not aggressive - no wounds, no puncturing bites - but they were using their combined body weight to knock him about, squash him and were mouthing at his neck and standing on him to pin him down. I kicked one off him, my other dog bit the second and then stood her ground snarling to keep them back. 

I was left at the start of the racing season with a sled dog who is now understandably terrified of dogs rushing up behind him. He is not presently safe to race. My other dog is now far quicker to wade in on a potential threat as well. All because one arrogant bloke has failed to adequately train his fat, ill-socialised dogs but still thinks he has the right to inflict them on other people. 

Excuse my rant, that one has been stewing for a while!


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## california dreaming (18 January 2015)

Greylegs said:



			Sorry Alec .... not when he ends up with cracked ribs and other injuries as a result. My dog is well mannered, friendly and obedient when those around him are too. As you say, "dogs speak dog" but I don't want my dog to have to be in a position of having to defend himself against what he sees as aggression, just because other owners can't get hold of their own animals. There have been many times i've had my boy on a lead, walking calmly, when he's been accosted by loose dogs belonging to other people in spite of my asking them to call their dogs off. I stand by my view that owners should 
teach dogs good behaviour, discipline and manners and not rely on other dogs to do it for them.
		
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Totally agree with this.  You would not expect a well mannered  child to have to beat up ill mannered abusive children that he/she came across on a day to day basis to teach them manners.  That is up to a responsible adult.(well, not actually beat them up)  IMO it is no different for dog owners. If you have a young, unruly, ill mannered  dog it is up to the owner to teach it manners/how to behave around other dogs and people. For sure, it won't do any long term damage if one dog tells another off, but you don't want it on a day to day basis.


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## Teaselmeg (18 January 2015)

There are definitely occasions when a dog can teach another dog manners, my Teasel is a teaching dog at off lead socialisation classes and many a young dog has come bowling up to her and been told to mind their manners. BUT this is in a controlled situation, where the mix of dogs is balanced and the dogs doing the policing/teaching never attack/bite another dog, and a lot of the time just a look is enough. 

This is completely different to allowing your dog to go charging up to any dog in a park and expecting that dog to teach yours manners. If your dog does this, you need to work on his impulse control and recall, before subjecting him to the local dogs and certainly never ever allow your off lead dog to run up to an onlead dog.


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## GeeGeeboy (18 January 2015)

california dreaming said:



			Totally agree with this.  You would not expect a well mannered  child to have to beat up ill mannered abusive children that he/she came across on a day to day basis to teach them manners.  That is up to a responsible adult.(well, not actually beat them up)  IMO it is no different for dog owners. If you have a young, unruly, ill mannered  dog it is up to the owner to teach it manners/how to behave around other dogs and people. For sure, it won't do any long term damage if one dog tells another off, but you don't want it on a day to day basis.
		
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I wish people would stop comparing human behaviour to dog behaviour. They are not the same!


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## twiggy2 (18 January 2015)

california dreaming said:



			For sure, it won't do any long term damage if one dog tells another off,
		
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I have had 2 very dominant dogs one is still with me but at 16yrs he chooses not to leave the garden but still rules my others with no argument-if in his younger days he had met and been left to discipline unruly dog after unruly dog he would have become aggressive, he was used to discipline very unruly puppies when I was teaching puppy training but that was under supervision, if a dog is called back and put on lead or is already on lead my dogs are not allowed to approach them. In the same way I expect if I am walking a dog on lead or call one back to put on lead I expect others to be under close control-that said I would not excersise an aggressive dog in public without it being muzzled and on lead but I do think there is a distinction between aggressive and grumpy/dominant


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## california dreaming (18 January 2015)

GeeGeeboy said:



			I wish people would stop comparing human behaviour to dog behaviour. They are not the same!
		
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I wish "people" would let other people have an opinion without snide, rude remarks.  I know human behaviour is not the same as dog behaviour.  But manners are manners and both need to know right from wrong.


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## california dreaming (18 January 2015)

Also, I did not think the OP had an aggressive dog. Obviously, if you have an aggressive dog who is likely to cause damage to other dogs then it should be muzzled.  I was under the impression that OP dog was not aggressive and was just being hassled and traumatised by out of control, unruly, bully dogs out walking.


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## SadKen (18 January 2015)

I stand by my view that unless both owners agree, there shouldn't be interaction between random dogs.

Here's how it could go, worst case scenario: other person's dog who I don't know comes up behind my dog who is always on lead, he doesn't like it, and growls, barks or puts his hair up (he has never bitten another dog). The other dog who I have never met attacks mine because it's a dominant dog and mine doesn't want to be dominated. I'm now in the middle of a dog fight and as mine is a large gsd, this fight is likely going to result in damage to dogs and humans.

Or... We could skip all that and do our best to keep our dogs away from other dogs.

To those who say it's my dog's problem that he doesn't like approaches from the rear by other dogs... No. if you look at wild dogs, approaches from the rear are the beginning of an attack, not a greeting. Wild dogs don't bounce up to other dogs all in their faces. No, they approach calmly and steadily with a slow tail wag and have a sniff before getting into each other's space, and respect a request for distance. A lot of today's dogs, like today's owners have no manners.


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## twiggy2 (18 January 2015)

SadKen said:



			A lot of today's dogs, like today's owners have no manners.
		
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Very true


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## {97702} (18 January 2015)

Completely agree with you OP.  When I walk my 4 greyhounds they can be very intimidating to other dogs we meet, so I always put them on a lead when we see anyone else approaching.  My small-dog-aggressive big male greyhound is always muzzled when walked, but the number of idiots who let their uncontrolled small dogs swarm all over him, even when he is reacting strongly and I am holding him by the collar to prevent an incident, is beyond belief.

It is not my dogs job to teach a small dog manners, because what would undoubtedly happen is that the small dog would get very effectively splatted and the owner would scream blue murder that my dog is aggressive.  I take the necessary precautions to ensure my dogs don't p1ss off other dogs, other dog owners should do the same.


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## Greylegs (18 January 2015)

california dreaming said:



			Also, I did not think the OP had an aggressive dog. Obviously, if you have an aggressive dog who is likely to cause damage to other dogs then it should be muzzled.  I was under the impression that OP dog was not aggressive and was just being hassled and traumatised by out of control, unruly, bully dogs out walking.
		
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Thank you. Yes, that's correct.


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## Amymay (18 January 2015)

Really interesting discussion.


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## GeeGeeboy (19 January 2015)

What I dont understand is thinking that a dog approaching another dog is "bad manners" !! It's just natural behaviour. Dogs are sociable, pack animals. Keeping your dog away from all other dogs is not good for your dog's mental health and is your problem, no one else's.


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## ThoroughbredStar (19 January 2015)

One of my pet hates regarding training animals, particularly dogs, is that people expect the training to happen behind closed doors and voila, when the dog is aloud off the lead in public space it behaves impeccably. 

Please take into consideration when training a dog it will need training in open spaces, at public events etc. I feel people frown too much upon behaviour exhibited by dogs without bothering to understand the background. I wish people were a little more open minded about how/what we see is acceptable or not acceptable. After all we are all right just different!


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## ester (19 January 2015)

GeeGeeboy said:



			What I dont understand is thinking that a dog approaching another dog is "bad manners" !! It's just natural behaviour. Dogs are sociable, pack animals. Keeping your dog away from all other dogs is not good for your dog's mental health and is your problem, no one else's.
		
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No but it is how the dogs approach each other as sadken mentioned earlier? ie not all guns blazing!


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## Penumbra (19 January 2015)

The thing is, if an animal lives in a social group, that doesn't mean all interactions with others of the species will be friendly. Zoos do not tend to introduce a new wolf to a pack by just throwing the animal in there and letting them get on with it! 

If you have a group of dogs who live together and are bonded closely (i.e. a pack) and are on ground they see as their territory, they may well see a strange dog running up to them as a threat and respond aggressively. A random dog will not be seen or treated as a fellow pack member. 

There is a line between "keeping your dog away from all other dogs" and letting them bound up to strange dogs who you do not know and do not have any knowledge of. 

Most dogs are actually remarkably tolerant of strange dogs and humans, but it is within all dogs to respond aggressively if they truly feel threatened, and for that reason, all owners should be careful. 

I agree that controlled socialisation with other dogs is great, and often fun for the dogs, but in my opinion this can only happen if both dogs are under control and on equal footing.


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## GeeGeeboy (19 January 2015)

Penumbra said:



			The thing is, if an animal lives in a social group, that doesn't mean all interactions with others of the species will be friendly. Zoos do not tend to introduce a new wolf to a pack by just throwing the animal in there and letting them get on with it! 

If you have a group of dogs who live together and are bonded closely (i.e. a pack) and are on ground they see as their territory, they may well see a strange dog running up to them as a threat and respond aggressively. A random dog will not be seen or treated as a fellow pack member. 

There is a line between "keeping your dog away from all other dogs" and letting them bound up to strange dogs who you do not know and do not have any knowledge of. 

Most dogs are actually remarkably tolerant of strange dogs and humans, but it is within all dogs to respond aggressively if they truly feel threatened, and for that reason, all owners should be careful. 
I agree that controlled socialisation with other dogs is great, and often fun for the dogs, but in my opinion this can only happen if both dogs are under control and on equal footing.
		
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I thought we were talking about dogs interacting in a neutral space(out walking)  Of course a space that is territorial (such as a garden)is a completely different matter.


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## burtie (19 January 2015)

GeeGeeboy said:



			What I dont understand is thinking that a dog approaching another dog is "bad manners" !! It's just natural behaviour. Dogs are sociable, pack animals. Keeping your dog away from all other dogs is not good for your dog's mental health and is your problem, no one else's.
		
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This, I ride out with my dog off lead, so don't want to get off everytime I see a dog on a lead. If the oncoming owners flaps, panics, grabs there dog and runs off into the wood/ bushes beside the track, I call mine and we trot on past. But if they just put their dog on a lead on the track (often because they are unsure of my horse!) I will walk quietly past and not stop my dog saying hello. That said he approaches quietly sniffs and then walks on, he will also totally ignore anything yapping and barking he can't be bothered with unsociable dogs. You can pretty much tell what the dog will do by looking at the owners body language!


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## Alec Swan (19 January 2015)

burtie said:



			&#8230;&#8230;.. . You can pretty much tell what the dog will do by looking at the owners body language!
		
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Isn't that just the truth?! 

Alec.


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## GeeGeeboy (19 January 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			Isn't that just the truth?! 

Alec.
		
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Exactly. Neurotic owner=neurotic dog!


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## {97702} (19 January 2015)

GeeGeeboy said:



			Exactly. Neurotic owner=neurotic dog!
		
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What a relief that neither my dog nor myself are neurotic then.  My dog will kill small dogs, that is the fact of the matter, so I stop him doing that.  If stupid owners let their small dogs come up to him and wind him up, they are annoying both me and him unnecessarily.


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## SadKen (19 January 2015)

Lévrier;12778313 said:
			
		


			What a relief that neither my dog nor myself are neurotic then.  My dog will kill small dogs, that is the fact of the matter, so I stop him doing that.  If stupid owners let their small dogs come up to him and wind him up, they are annoying both me and him unnecessarily.
		
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Perhaps you should let him, levrier. After all, it's 'natural'...

I'm being facetious of course. As it happens I have one extremely friendly, bouncy sociable young gsd and one who's not keen on unknown dogs in his space. Perhaps I have multiple personality disorder; one half neurotic and one half a social butterfly. Or maybe dogs, like humans, are different when it comes to their likes and dislikes.


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## GeeGeeboy (19 January 2015)

SadKen;12778515. Perhaps I have multiple personality disorder; one half neurotic and one half a social butterfly. .[/QUOTE said:
			
		


			Yeah, that must be the problem.
		
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## PucciNPoni (20 January 2015)

SadKen said:



			Perhaps you should let him, levrier. After all, it's 'natural'...

I'm being facetious of course. As it happens I have one extremely friendly, bouncy sociable young gsd and one who's not keen on unknown dogs in his space. Perhaps I have multiple personality disorder; one half neurotic and one half a social butterfly. Or maybe dogs, like humans, are different when it comes to their likes and dislikes.
		
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I've got a problem being out with my dogs - I have a fairly reactive border terrier who doesn't particularly like other dogs.  At his age and the fact that he's arthritic, I don't push this matter too much.  On the other leads I have two fairly sociable poodles but the young one bounces and tangles everyone else up.  No, I don't let them run off lead because most of the walking I do is a bit too trafficky.  They all get a run in a field with no other dogs.  They are all socialised, they all go to doggy social gatherings, but when I'm taking the dogs out I don't really want to mingle with other dogs.  So if I see someone with a dog = particularly if it's off lead - I change route.


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## nianya (20 January 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			OP,  sorry,  but I am going to disagree with you.  IT IS your dog's job to teach the ignorant and the ill mannered,  their place!  Boys tend to learn from men.  It's rarely the other way around!

Dogs speak 'dog',  and if the owner of the errant and ill-mannered lout who accosted you on your walk can't teach their dog manners,  then the best person to do the education bit,  is your dog! 

Alec.
		
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Absolutely not!  That attitude resulted in my dog, who mostly ignored other dogs, getting set upon by dogs who "had never done such a thing before!!".  If your dog is not under your control when off leash he has no right to be off leash, end of story.  He should come when called immediately and leave things when told to.  The other dogs are not in their pack.  Only at home, with dogs that are part of the family is it ok for them to discipline each other and even then if you tell them off they should stop.

On the leash dogs should not socialize unless expressly invited to and that means the people holding the leashes need to communicate.    

This attitude results in dogs and people getting hurt just as much as it would with horses.


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## {97702} (20 January 2015)

SadKen said:



			Perhaps you should let him, levrier. After all, it's 'natural'...

I'm being facetious of course. As it happens I have one extremely friendly, bouncy sociable young gsd and one who's not keen on unknown dogs in his space. Perhaps I have multiple personality disorder; one half neurotic and one half a social butterfly. Or maybe dogs, like humans, are different when it comes to their likes and dislikes.
		
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That made me smile wryly - I suppose since he is always muzzled he wouldnt actually do terminal harm after all, so I'll just go for it and tell the owner of the affected dog that it is just how dogs are


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## GeeGeeboy (20 January 2015)

SadKen said:



			Perhaps you should let him, levrier. After all, it's 'natural'...

I'm being facetious of course. As it happens I have one extremely friendly, bouncy sociable young gsd and one who's not keen on unknown dogs in his space. Perhaps I have multiple personality disorder; one half neurotic and one half a social butterfly. Or maybe dogs, like humans, are different when it comes to their likes and dislikes.
		
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				Lévrier;12778754 said:
			
		


			That made me smile wryly - I suppose since he is always muzzled he wouldnt actually do terminal harm after all, so I'll just go for it and tell the owner of the affected dog that it is just how dogs are 

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Great idea!


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## ThoroughbredStar (20 January 2015)

nianya said:



			If your dog is not under your control when off leash he has no right to be off leash, end of story.  He should come when called immediately and leave things when told to.
		
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But dogs need to learn to be off the leash.....Yes you train at home/enclosed areas etc, but there is a time when coming off the leash for the first time, be it in a park, open field, agility show etc, has to happen. Some dogs can show huge amounts obedience when trained in controlled areas like a garden but that first time, or even second time off the leash can be very exciting, ie may take longer to recall. I find it incredibly unrealistic to expect dogs/horses to do exactly what we say every time- after all they are animals.......


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## {97702} (20 January 2015)

GeeGeeboy said:



			Great idea!
		
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Yeah cos greyhounds dont get any bad press as it is, and it will really promote a good image of the breed to the general public....


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## {97702} (20 January 2015)

ThoroughbredStar said:



			But dogs need to learn to be off the leash.....Yes you train at home/enclosed areas etc, but there is a time when coming off the leash for the first time, be it in a park, open field, agility show etc, has to happen. Some dogs can show huge amounts obedience when trained in controlled areas like a garden but that first time, or even second time off the leash can be very exciting, ie may take longer to recall. I find it incredibly unrealistic to expect dogs/horses to do exactly what we say every time- after all they are animals.......
		
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Agree with this, and if the owner took the time to explain this to me as the reason their small dog approached mine I wouldn't have a problem at all


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## Amymay (20 January 2015)

ThoroughbredStar said:



			But dogs need to learn to be off the leash.....Yes you train at home/enclosed areas etc, but there is a time when coming off the leash for the first time, be it in a park, open field, agility show etc, has to happen. Some dogs can show huge amounts obedience when trained in controlled areas like a garden but that first time, or even second time off the leash can be very exciting, ie may take longer to recall. I find it incredibly unrealistic to expect dogs/horses to do exactly what we say every time- after all they are animals.......
		
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Phew, thank goodness for this post.

I've heen feeling like a pretty poor owner reading this thread....


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## GeeGeeboy (20 January 2015)

Don't feel bad Amymay. No dog has 100% recall. To expect every dog that you encounter to have that is very unrealistic.


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## ThoroughbredStar (20 January 2015)

GeeGeeboy said:



			Don't feel bad Amymay. No dog has 100% recall. To expect every dog that you encounter to have that is very unrealistic.
		
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Absofrigginlutely!


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## Clodagh (20 January 2015)

ThoroughbredStar said:



			But dogs need to learn to be off the leash.....Yes you train at home/enclosed areas etc, but there is a time when coming off the leash for the first time, be it in a park, open field, agility show etc, has to happen. Some dogs can show huge amounts obedience when trained in controlled areas like a garden but that first time, or even second time off the leash can be very exciting, ie may take longer to recall. I find it incredibly unrealistic to expect dogs/horses to do exactly what we say every time- after all they are animals.......
		
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And probably why there are so many neurotic dogs out there. My mum can make any dog aggressive in minutes - if she sees antoher dog she puts the lead on, pulls it tight, and starts squarking, you can pretty well guarantee all dogs will at least growl, if not come to blows. Dogs can usually work things out themselves perfectly well without our intervention.


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## GeeGeeboy (20 January 2015)

Clodagh said:



			And probably why there are so many neurotic dogs out there. My mum can make any dog aggressive in minutes - if she sees antoher dog she puts the lead on, pulls it tight, and starts squarking, you can pretty well guarantee all dogs will at least growl, if not come to blows. Dogs can usually work things out themselves perfectly well without our intervention.
		
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Totally agree with this.


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## Scarlett (20 January 2015)

amymay said:



			Phew, thank goodness for this post.

I've heen feeling like a pretty poor owner reading this thread....
		
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Me too.

I have an 8 month rescue pup who is learning to be a useful member of canine society. On our own his recall is good, but if he see's another dog before I do he will run over to say hello. I dread meeting people as I don't want to be 'that' owner with the misbehaving dog but until we actually meet other dogs I can't reinforce his training. Our other dog is very good, I don't recall ever having a issue but we drilled it into him from day one.

I took them both out together this am to a local field where they get to run of the lead. Met a woman with 2 spaniels who wanted to play as much as my 2 did. Chaos ensues, dogs running about playing happily, I start walking away and my guys go with the other dogs. Thankfully the woman laughed it off, stopped, grabbed her two and allowed me to pop mine on the lead and head the opposite direction but in a different situation with a different owner and dogs it could have gone very wrong. Its the first time my recall has failed. I have a plan for tomorrows walk should we meet anyone - part of the plan is going earlier as there will be no one about - but it's only by being in the situation I can see what I need to do and what we need to work on.


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## WelshD (20 January 2015)

My usually well behaved Welsh terrier will just run if he sees something that moves fast such as a rabbit, I can get him to leave something if he grabs it but while he is running I may as well be talking to myself. He has had training and most of the time would have no problems stopping and coming back but anything small flapping or running sets him off. I personally do not see this as a deficiency in my training but as powerful instinct for him though I am sure some will insist that a dog should have 100% recall

Hasten to add that because of that he is walked on a lunge rein which gives him enough freedom. He runs free in my field but only in the part that is securely fenced


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## Slightlyconfused (20 January 2015)

bonny said:



			I agree with this, with so many of you on here having the same problem with other dogs it's hard not to think the real issue is the paranoid owners not their pets.....the vast majority of dogs that I meet are totally fine, either say hello or just meander past and I simply don't ever meet dogs that ever cause a problem.
		
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My collie is fine with other dogs.....until they jump on him then he will have them. 

He has hip dysplasia and is protective of himself, he ignores othe dogs, comes back on command even if something really interesting is going on over there. It's not his fault if another dog goes to jump on him when he is just minding his own having a run and he flattens them. 


A lady up the yards puppy did that and he snapped it it, the lady got scared he would go for her, I explained about his hips but she still was worried even though the pup had understood and backed off. People need to control their dogs from going up to other dogs simple as that. But I also know from experience that some dogs take longer to learn off lean. I just tell people 'we are still in training' I don't expect other dogs to teach mine manners, that's my job.

Right I'm now off to walk the young collie and three month old up the feild to practice on her recall.....been going great so far but I know there will be hiccups.


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## SadKen (20 January 2015)

I agree that not every dog has 100% recall. 

Not every dog is 100% happy with the approaches of unknown dogs.

Both are behaviours we don't necessarily want, and if we are accepting of one we ought to be accepting of the other.

I for one fully understand that not every dog has full recall, and expect others to accept that my big GSD would prefer not to have other dogs in his space, and IF POSSIBLE to give us a wide berth.  There's a big difference between the people who try to do this and those who don't bother.


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## nianya (20 January 2015)

ThoroughbredStar said:



			But dogs need to learn to be off the leash.....Yes you train at home/enclosed areas etc, but there is a time when coming off the leash for the first time, be it in a park, open field, agility show etc, has to happen. Some dogs can show huge amounts obedience when trained in controlled areas like a garden but that first time, or even second time off the leash can be very exciting, ie may take longer to recall. I find it incredibly unrealistic to expect dogs/horses to do exactly what we say every time- after all they are animals.......
		
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And in my experience the people who expect their dogs/horses to behave are not the ones with dogs/horses that cause problems.  It's the ones who say "oh just let them get it over with" that end up with my dog limping and me bleeding while my dog is on a leash and can't get away.  Or injured at the dog park because some people think that's the time to just turn them loose and ignore them for an hour.  The people who are actually training their animals to behave will watch them and correct them on or off leash.  I had a husky, and they aren't known for listening well.  My dog was not off leash unless I knew for sure he was going to pay attention to me, for his own safety.  And when he was older and blind I did not take him to dog parks, and I always asked people to keep their dogs at a distance.  Because the last thing he needed was to get attacked.

It's inappropriate for both the dog and the owner to expect that a dog outside of their family group is going to "school" any other dog.  Never mind the liability if that "schooling" results in the dog being "schooled" to get hurt.


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## Amymay (20 January 2015)

nianya said:



			It's inappropriate for both the dog and the owner to expect that a dog outside of their family group is going to "school" any other dog.  Never mind the liability if that "schooling" results in the dog being "schooled" to get hurt.
		
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So I should not allow my dog to interact with any other dog who may or may not 'school' her? (She's an only dog).


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## SadKen (20 January 2015)

amymay said:



			So I should not allow my dog to interact with any other dog who may or may not 'school' her? (She's an only dog).
		
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you could hang out with friends with dogs, or take her to classes be that agility, obedience etc. Or ask the owner of the other dog first if you don't know them.

I don't think impromptu interaction with random dogs is overly helpful; isn't it better to minimise risk so everyone has better chance of a positive experience?


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## Amymay (20 January 2015)

Daisy hangs out with all sorts of dogs. Friends dogs (who I've met through walking), random dogs, dogs at training.

She is incredibly well socialised, exactly because of the above. I don't take risks with her, but her social skills haven't come from me - but the dogs she's met and interacted with.

I do get what a lot of posters are getting at, and I guess I'm lucky to have a dog of a happy and sociable nature. I'm also thankful that I'm not a neurotic small dog owner.

Today's playmates were a stunning GS dog, and a Husky.


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## gunnergundog (20 January 2015)

I always set a dog up to succeed....never to fail.  Therefore, to those that say there is always a first time for it being in the wide open space, I would suggest that you haven't prepped your dog sufficiently.

I always start my dogs in the house, then in the garden, then in the paddock,then on the village green....and so on, upping the gameiness of the environment as mine are gundogs.  HOWEVER, when I wish to introduce distractions  (other dogs) I go back to base level one!  In other words, I invite someone and their dog around for tea!  I then use this carefully selected stooge dog in the house to establish recall away, rewarding with an immediate return to play.  This then moves on into the garden., the paddock etc etc.  At any stage where I have ANY element of doubt of the dogs complicity it is on a harness with a long line such that I can reinforce the command.  That way the dog learns that obedience is paramount and that debate is not an option.

People nowadays rarely seem prepared to spend the hours necessary to get an obedient civilized dog IMO.


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## twiggy2 (20 January 2015)

gunnergundog said:



			I always set a dog up to succeed....never to fail.  Therefore, to those that say there is always a first time for it being in the wide open space, I would suggest that you haven't prepped your dog sufficiently.

I always start my dogs in the house, then in the garden, then in the paddock,then on the village green....and so on, upping the gameiness of the environment as mine are gundogs.  HOWEVER, when I wish to introduce distractions  (other dogs) I go back to base level one!  In other words, I invite someone and their dog around for tea!  I then use this carefully selected stooge dog in the house to establish recall away, rewarding with an immediate return to play.  This then moves on into the garden., the paddock etc etc.  At any stage where I have ANY element of doubt of the dogs complicity it is on a harness with a long line such that I can reinforce the command.  That way the dog learns that obedience is paramount and that debate is not an option.

People nowadays rarely seem prepared to spend the hours necessary to get an obedient civilized dog IMO.
		
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Good advice and so true


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