# pics + a vid - CS working today:



## Prince33Sp4rkle (23 October 2011)

well, firstly, yes im wearing a hat......he pushed his luck a bit yesterday and nearly dropped me out the side door, so today went out armed with a neck strap, stick, and hat.......i ditched the first two after warming up, but in the end could probably have done with keeping them, as you will see!

the trot and the canter have gone up another notch in terms of power/self carrige, and all the sideways stuff is comming much easier, there is just the occasional  moment when he simply has to check im awake, and that i applied superglue.....and he wouldnt be him if we didnt have at least one episode of snake head and backwards bucking each week!

trot:






rein back:






shoulder in:






half pass:






collecting the trot back to half steps...needs to show more sit i know, the *sit* is better when producing the half steps from the walk, but being idle by nature, mixing it up with the trot work keeps him more forward thinking....






and going forward to ext trot.....have been working hard on keeping the suspension and cadence in the ext work, and he is really starting to show more push up off the floor and not just racing out the front door 






we then had a minor disagreement about direction of travel:





















but got on back on track with some walk to canter:


















some canter half pass:






and some changes:






and just for good measure........check i wasnt getting complacent.......
















many many swear words were, erm, shouted and he did eventually lower himself to cantering without trying to deer leap/bronc, me off!

theres a short vid here of 3 x 3's. i know he gets a bit stuck in the middle one, and im riding like a monkey up a tree, but i think they are quite passable for a 6yo, who is just playing with tempis 

http://www.facebook.com/v/10150904453245257


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## MillionDollar (23 October 2011)

I absolutely LOVE the 4th, the half pass, pic, just gorgeous!!!

He looks fab. But naughty CS. 

Great vid too, would love to see more


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## dressagelove (23 October 2011)

beautiful, very impressive  wish i could get there already !


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## nikkimariet (23 October 2011)

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Your face!! '**** where did my horse go?!'

You're right, wouldn't be him if he didn't like to check the limpet genetics every once in a while.

Getting more consistent all the time  :wub:


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## NinjaPony (23 October 2011)

This is a genuine question so please don't get defensive, but it does suprise me when you know CS can be a naughty boy , that you don't wear a hat most of the time on him.
He looks to be working very well.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (23 October 2011)

i guess you just have to acept that i know him inside out, most of the time its a half hearted try on,easily and quickly squashed.... yesterday he pushed his luck and although i worked though it,and didnt let him get away with it, today i wanted to do the proverbial *come down like a ton of bricks* and felt a hat might be prudent.......he tried it on, i flattened him, and now he'll back to his usual half hearted self for a good long while......and in reality the hat is more so i know his neck cant make contact with nose!!!i actually didnt feel in any danger of eating surface today, but its nice to know that whatever he does my nose is safe (my nose is only in danger when he needs *putting back in his box*).

shrugs.its fine to ask, but i dont want another hat debate please!


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## rhino (23 October 2011)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			needs to show more sit i know





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Looks like he's showing plenty 'sit' to me  

Looking good


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## Leg_end (23 October 2011)

He's looking good but I have to say I'm so pleased you have a hat on


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## Firewell (23 October 2011)

He's gorgeous.

When he has those naughty moments how do you ride him through it? Do you tell him off?

.


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## OneInAMillion (23 October 2011)

He reminds me of D so much, butter wouldn't melt and then BAM!


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## kirstyl (23 October 2011)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			i guess you just have to acept that i know him inside out, most of the time its a half hearted try on,easily and quickly squashed.... yesterday he pushed his luck and although i worked though it,and didnt let him get away with it, today i wanted to do the proverbial *come down like a ton of bricks* and felt a hat might be prudent.......he tried it on, i flattened him, and now he'll back to his usual half hearted self for a good long while......and in reality the hat is more so i know his neck cant make contact with nose!!!i actually didnt feel in any danger of eating surface today, but its nice to know that whatever he does my nose is safe (my nose is only in danger when he needs *putting back in his box*).

shrugs.its fine to ask, but i dont want another hat debate please!
		
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Hi, I love seeing photos of you and your sister riding, particularly your horse as I too have an ex racehorse whom I'm re-schooling, it's great to have some inspiration from a partnership that is obviously going really well. But ... if you don't want a hat debate, don't post photos of yourselves riding without hats.  My horse too is 99% of the time wonderful but you never know what is around the next corner and therefore I never ride without a hat.


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## HappyHorses:) (23 October 2011)

Is it me or can you see that he is wearing a 'I'm gonna be a monkey today' expression 

When's the next outing?


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## diggerbez (23 October 2011)

i love him  wouldn't ever want to have to try and sit on him...but love him nontheless  i can't believe that he's only 6!


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## Lolo (24 October 2011)

kirstyl said:



			Hi, I love seeing photos of you and your sister riding, particularly your horse as I too have an ex racehorse whom I'm re-schooling, it's great to have some inspiration from a partnership that is obviously going really well. But ... if you don't want a hat debate, don't post photos of yourselves riding without hats.  My horse too is 99% of the time wonderful but you never know what is around the next corner and therefore I never ride without a hat.
		
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Or people could just go "Oh, I wouldn't do that" in their heads and then type the rest out... I see a lot of things I'd like to comment on (on FB more than here!) and somehow I don't?!

He is a monkey, but a very talented and gorgeous one! Have you entered the RoR dressage series thingy?


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## Booboos (24 October 2011)

He is looking fantastic! Very muscular and well developed now, well done! As for the rest, well we all have to have some fun sometimes!!


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## 4faults (24 October 2011)

Looking fantastic as always but what a cheeky boy haha. I would love to see some more vids of him


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (24 October 2011)

lolo-exactly,thanks. ................and yes, doing the ROR elem, am going to be very interested to see the other horses in it, as there are so many types of TB.

firewell-yes, definately he gets a rollocking! you can see in the first set of pics that he pulled his fave *trick* of bucking whilst jumping backwards and slightly to the left then droppign a shoulder and spinning 360 to the right......if you try and stop him mid spin he just goes higher so better to sit, let him stop moving and then kick him forward (and he gets sent forward really very firmly indeed if you catch my drift).
in the second set you can see iv managed to anchor the left side of him so he cant spin, hence the deer leap, but at least then i was able to kick forward straight away.
he tried it on once more but knowing id stopped the spin last time, he more or less gave up instantly, it was such a half hearted effort it was barely worth it!


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## BuzzLightyear (24 October 2011)

you must be sooooo excited about him,

I still cant believe he's only 6!

Well sat is all I can say for some of those photos 

He looks great, a real credit to you


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## siennamum (24 October 2011)

He is looking amazing, especially for a 6 year old. Would love to see more vid of you both at some point.


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## OneInAMillion (24 October 2011)

kirstyl said:



			Hi, I love seeing photos of you and your sister riding, particularly your horse as I too have an ex racehorse whom I'm re-schooling, it's great to have some inspiration from a partnership that is obviously going really well. But ... if you don't want a hat debate, don't post photos of yourselves riding without hats.  My horse too is 99% of the time wonderful but you never know what is around the next corner and therefore I never ride without a hat.
		
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If you dislike it that much don't look at the photos


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## siennamum (24 October 2011)

OneInAMillion said:



			If you dislike it that much don't look at the photos 

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I agree, its very dull.


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## Sneedy (24 October 2011)

He's looking super! Is that his 'winter coat', if so you lucky bu**er!!!!!

Good luck next wkend


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## Tr0uble (24 October 2011)

Love the naughty pics, he really does have his naghty face on! I always love the good pics of him, but it gives hope to the rest of us to see a horse who can work so well also having his moments....just shows that things CAN be worked through!

Also, have to say I think I prefer him with the slightly shorter mane...unless it's my imagination that it's a bit shorter? Sets his neck off really nicely!


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (24 October 2011)

nope, you arent going mad, i hacked both the boys manes a bit last weekend, and when we saw these pics both NMT and I said we pref them shorter too, so no more hanson manes!!!

sneedy-caved and clipped him.he was just fuzzy round his jaw and armpits and fuzz drives me nuts, so have full clipped him.

on a mission to get more vid next weekend, of both the boys 

thank you all, i know the tempi's are not nearly ready to take in a ring, but they are so easy i dont think it will be an issue to neaten them up, he's learning to count even when i forget lol!!!


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## Tr0uble (24 October 2011)

Always liked his long mane, but it def makes his neck look more impressive now it's shorter. 

One question....how far do you travel to get paid to ride a horse who does acrobatics a bit like C's!? lol...rebacking Snip next year and not sure how up for it my poor broken knee will be!!!!!


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (24 October 2011)

lol!where are you based?


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## imr (24 October 2011)

Ha ha these really made me smile, looks all super dressage horsey and then morphs into little s..t mode! I know what you mean about head and neck in face - ive been walking about with a black eye the last 2 weeks thanks to baby mare turning herself inside out and neck making contact with my right cheekbone - I did have a hat on too! 

I cant believe how advanced he is for a 6 yo. You must be so pleased with him. Youre clearly going to have zero trouble with turning single changes into tempis as he is rather getting the hang of them already, as you say he just needs to get more forward and expressive and to stop getting stuck. But then he is only 6 !


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## Tr0uble (24 October 2011)

Huntingdon in Cambs....I think you live Leics way? (near my parents) so I'm approx 1-1.25 hours drive stright down M1, A14.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (24 October 2011)

ouch! i had a right shiner for aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaages when (another rather more deliberately vile creature) smaked my cheek/eye socket with the buckle of the cheekpiece..........how she managed to twist her head that far back and round!

i think changes will be one of his strong points, he does find them easy, and is naturally very straight, really its just me that needs to re-learn my counting, im just not quick enough some times!and if i could not wriggle so much, he would prob stay more forward?!


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## Tr0uble (24 October 2011)

I should add, Snip's aren't acrobatics to test you out, they're acrobatics because he has been tying up and has muscle damage...but will have had 2 years completely out of work by next spring....so will likely be a bit naffed in the head, but needs someone limpet like to sit it out until he realises it doesn't hurt any more!!! I would normally be happy to do it, but what with my knee problems this year....plus you'd be lighter than me (I'm not heavy, but def heavier than you!)

Would probably combine it with a lesson on the grey baby to make travel worthwhile, and there may be one other person up for a lesson whilse we're at it too!


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (24 October 2011)

trouble-thats not too far, be happy to come and have a few sits


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## Tr0uble (24 October 2011)

Excellent!

Planning to spend this winter getting myself back up to strength...can you believe I've had 11 months out of the saddle now!!?? Then going to be lessoning lots (Think there are plans for Lili to come over too) so if it's a travelable distance then might be worth doing it a few times...and then you can help me relearn to ride the bugger as well! Don't mind admitting he smashed my confidence!!


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## dressagecrazy (24 October 2011)

He is a stunning horse & im not meaning to be rude ive thought long & hard before posting. But as a fellow dressage rider do you not feel your maybe pushing him a bit to much? 

With greatest respect he doesnt seem to be to happy in those pic's, i know he's an ex-racer i have one to & i know how hard they can be to relax. I just think maybe his "episodes" are actually him shouting at you that he isnt happy?

Im just coming from a point of view of having to re-back horses that have been pushed a bit to hard & finally hit breaking point. I would hate this to happen with your boy, plus studies have also shown that it is the bigger movement that we all want at the higher levels that can do the damage to the suspensorys in dressage horses at young ages.

 I know you have a horse to compete but what is the rush to get up the levels so fast with a young horse? 

Please dont think im being nasty & i know i will be shot down for what ive said, but i hope you maybe take something from what ive said. My greatest achievment is having a happy athelete & it's a balancing act.
Please dont think im having a pop at you & i hope others dont see it that way im not trying to start a debate or an attack. Your doing a lovely job with a wonderful horse im just a bit concerned thats all.


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## only_me (24 October 2011)

He looks fab! All really grown up and even compared to last year there is such a difference! 
I couldn't care less about the hat, but what I find funny is that people are commenting that you shouldnt post photos of riding hatless - When you have actually posted pics of you wearing the hat in this thread!

One thing that stood out to me though - in only one of those photos does he look happy, he dosen't look like his normal self imo, but then I am only going by photos! Maybe because of his changing muscles/shape the saddle isn't sitting just how it used to? Just a thought 

Loving the saddlecloth - think they would do it in a jumping saddle shape?


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (24 October 2011)

can you point out (apart from where he is going upside down) that he doesnt look happy?

to me he looks like a horse thats concentrating (as he flipping well should be im afraid!). Yes he is pulling his lips back in the rein back pic, but he's a very *mouthy* horse, contactly lip flipping and sneering and snapping, rubbing his teeth along things etc when in the stable, field or being groomed etc.........he looks for all the world like he'd have your head off, then just as suddenly pricks his ears and snuggles up for a cuddle..........it seems to be habit/entertainment value more than anything as he is most certainly NOT in pain, having been seen by an excellent back lady, someone i would consider THE BEST equine dentist in the uk, and the same saddler iv had for over ten years(saddle slightly adjusted), all in the last couple of weeks. the horse simply ripples over the ground, he isnt sore.
he actually looks softer in his body/mouth/mind to me, than previously, so just goes to show we all see different things doesnt it.

the episodes are not new, are lesser in frequency and er intensity(!) than previously and are not related to any specific movement or even to harder work, more often than not the first one comes from trotting on a loose rein and suddenly WHAM horse is out from under me and spinning-he apparently used to do the same in race training and has always been inclined to test his rider (race trainer called him un-genuine ). i dont think he'll ever come out without testing me at least once,i just think he'll always need to check that im still the boss.

there are *yes* horses and *maybe* horses, CS is a *maybe* horse-he has to check how much i want it, each and every day, and thats fine with me because it doesnt bother me in the slightest and i couldnt afford a *yes* horse with GP potential.

whilst the tempis are not perfect, i think you'd be hard pushed to say he looks to be struggling?????

he's worked 4 times a week and does mostly transitions and stretching, and *plays* with stuff like tempis/pi/pa/piri's etc for 5 or 10 mins at the end, and not every day either.

cant do right for doing wrong onhere-if you only post *pretty* pics of nice moments, apparently thats presenting an un-true pic, and if you go warts and all, you must be doing something wrong!

thats not a pop at you BTW, just a general (irritating) observation.


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## SpottedCat (24 October 2011)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			cant do right for doing wrong onhere-if you only post *pretty* pics of nice moments, apparently thats presenting an un-true pic, and if you go warts and all, you must be doing something wrong!

thats not a pop at you BTW, just a general (irritating) observation.
		
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I was thinking exactly that!


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## dressagecrazy (24 October 2011)

See i knew i would be jumped on, i never mentioned anything about the changes. But i will say he needs to be more through & straighter, however what do i know!! 

Actually PS it seems that others cant have an opinion. I stand by my post he doesnt look happy in many of the pic's but i dont know your horse in "real" life so im going off what your presenting on here.
I state again im not having a Pop.


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## 4faults (24 October 2011)

Dc- I don't think your being jumped on at all. PS presented her case in the same way you did yours, methodical, to the point and with no nasty remarks. You asked an she answered, what is wrong with that?


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## kit279 (24 October 2011)

I don't usually say anything on your threads, PS, mainly because they seem to get quite entrenched quite early on (particularly re hats!), but I just wanted to say good on you for posting your photos and being frank and honest about your decision making process with your lovely horse.  He is a beauty and he is beautifully trained by you and the more I see of racehorses, the more impressive your achievements with him are.  He's clearly not a horse for fools and he is unbelievably lucky to have an understanding and sympathetic home with you, since the life he would have had in a nervous novice home just doesn't bear thinking about.  It would be nice if all the sharp racehorses in the world could have a similar outcome!


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## dressagecrazy (24 October 2011)

4faults said:



			Dc- I don't think your being jumped on at all. PS presented her case in the same way you did yours, methodical, to the point and with no nasty remarks. You asked an she answered, what is wrong with that?
		
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I didnt say there was anything wrong, however they way PS's last post is written it comes across as defensive & it seems like ive obviously annoyed.

Im not going to get into this anyway, i had a feeling i would start to be seen as the black sheep & it's starting. So enjoy your horses everyone im not willing to be dragged into a debate, i stated my thoughts, PS's should no that im not trying to jump on her or slate her.

I wont be posting again & wish you luck with your very lovely horse PS & that is not meant in a condecending manner before anyone jumps on that.


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## tractorgirl (24 October 2011)

kit279 said:



			I don't usually say anything on your threads, PS, mainly because they seem to get quite entrenched quite early on (particularly re hats!), but I just wanted to say good on you for posting your photos and being frank and honest about your decision making process with your lovely horse.  He is a beauty and he is beautifully trained by you and the more I see of racehorses, the more impressive your achievements with him are.  He's clearly not a horse for fools and he is unbelievably lucky to have an understanding and sympathetic home with you, since the life he would have had in a nervous novice home just doesn't bear thinking about.  It would be nice if all the sharp racehorses in the world could have a similar outcome!
		
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Baaaa

Agree with all this!!!  Please continue to post warts and all PS (hat or no hat!!)  I find it truly inspiring to those of us with less talented but perhaps *ahem* equally athletic TB's.....


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (24 October 2011)

"See i knew i would be jumped on, i never mentioned anything about the changes. But i will say he needs to be more through & straighter, however what do i know!! 

Actually PS it seems that others cant have an opinion. I stand by my post he doesnt look happy in many of the pic's but i dont know your horse in "real" life so im going off what your presenting on here.
I state again im not having a Pop."

see 4faults reply-puts it perfectly, no pop taking, just an answer to your concerns!

agree the middle change needs to be straighter, but rome wasnt built in a day, and i have said (twice at least) that i know they arent perfect.

and this-"He's clearly not a horse for fools and he is unbelievably lucky to have an understanding and sympathetic home with you, since the life he would have had in a nervous novice home just doesn't bear thinking about. It would be nice if all the sharp racehorses in the world could have a similar outcome! "

thank you


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (24 October 2011)

"I didnt say there was anything wrong, however they way PS's last post is written it comes across as defensive & it seems like ive obviously annoyed.

Im not going to get into this anyway, i had a feeling i would start to be seen as the black sheep & it's starting. So enjoy your horses everyone im not willing to be dragged into a debate, i stated my thoughts, PS's should no that im not trying to jump on her or slate her.

I wont be posting again & wish you luck with your very lovely horse PS & that is not meant in a condecending manner before anyone jumps on that."





.............all i did was explain more about the horse's character and care to reassure you that he isnt in pain/being pushed.
sorry if thats in some way starting an argument!


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## Deefa (24 October 2011)

I adore CS, and will be coming to steal him one day!!
Yes he has 'Character'  but it also makes him have a fab presence about him and PS knows him so well. Personally i always wear a hat but PS is an Adult and can make her own choices x

Keep the Pic's coming PS!


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## Tr0uble (24 October 2011)

I have to agree I don't think the response came across as a pop either (and I also don't think the question was a pop either!) 

It is frustrating to always see PS jumped on, and then jumped on again for giving any kind of response. I've seen fiesty responses, and reasoned resposes, sarcastic responses and exasperated responses....and all of them are taken the wrong way!

Maybe it is because PS IS doing so well, and DOES know her stuff that people are more likely to get their backs up? 

Well, I for one am glad to see someone doing well and yet still posting about it sometimes going wrong. Gives a far better view of reality.

There's no point in posting only good, but I know from personal experience that when you post the bad, people assume that is how it always is and start trying to analyse. I have endless pics of my boy (the brown one, the grey baby is far too polite for such things!) rearing, napping, bucking....but no one remembers the pics of him going well!


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## only_me (24 October 2011)

Hope you weren't offended by my post, was mearly an observation of his expression in the photos!  As I said, he looks fantastic and you know your horse better than I can ever know 

Do you know if the saddleclothes come in a jumping style?


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## loopyloop (24 October 2011)

I don't think I've ever posted on any of PS's threads but I follow them with great interest! I love looking at her pics and think CS is stunning, he's a real credit to her effort and hard work.

For what it's worth, I think she's absolutely mental for not riding in a hat but I really can't understand everyones need for constantly digging at her for it, she obviously has some sense as she admits to using a neck strap and hat when she feels its neccessary.

Can we not just put the hat thing to bed, people can tell her until they're blue in the face, I doubt it will change things, all it does it detract from a really interesting thread.

As for the riding asking too much debate, I can't say, there are much better qualified people on here for that! I just wish I had a CS myself (minus the acrobatics!) he's a beauty!


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## dressagecrazy (24 October 2011)

Tr0uble said:



			I have to agree I don't think the response came across as a pop either (and I also don't think the question was a pop either!) 

It is frustrating to always see PS jumped on, and then jumped on again for giving any kind of response. I've seen fiesty responses, and reasoned resposes, sarcastic responses and exasperated responses....and all of them are taken the wrong way!

Maybe it is because PS IS doing so well, and DOES know her stuff that people are more likely to get their backs up? 

Well, I for one am glad to see someone doing well and yet still posting about it sometimes going wrong. Gives a far better view of reality.

There's no point in posting only good, but I know from personal experience that when you post the bad, people assume that is how it always is and start trying to analyse. I have endless pics of my boy (the brown one, the grey baby is far too polite for such things!) rearing, napping, bucking....but no one remembers the pics of him going well!
		
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I can assure you Trouble i do not have my back up or any jelousy issues in fact i love to see people doing well, i teach also so if i was like that i wouldnt have many clients left would i 
 I was just trying to say maybe there is something to her horses "episodes".


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## Tr0uble (24 October 2011)

Sorry, to clarify that bit wasn't a response to what's been said on here...more a general observation. By the looks of the pics in your sig you have nothing to be jealous of anyone for, and i would never suggest as such!

The only bit that was a direct response to what you've put on this thread was the first paragraph


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## noname (24 October 2011)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			lolo-exactly,thanks. ................and yes, doing the ROR elem, am going to be very interested to see the other horses in it, as there are so many types of TB.
		
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I am taking mine for the prelim, but he's more the traditional skinny poker thin type. (he only came out of training 2 yrs ago, raced until 5) So its lovely to CS has filled out so well. Gives me hope that I will get the weight on him one day!!! He dumped me xc schooling last time so if you see flying legs, thats me!!!

I think a friend from the RC is going and her racer doesn't look like a racer at all. He's really filled out well and moves like a WB.


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## Perfect_Pirouette (24 October 2011)

Love him, Love him, Love him, Love him!!!!!!

Mighty jealous. Can't see vid though (not working?) which I was so looking forward to


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## diggerbez (24 October 2011)

DC- i didn't think your post was having a 'pop' at all- but equally PS's reply wasn't.... just out of interest- do many horses not have little 'episodes'? mine certainly does, if he's not really wanting to do something, he'll say no, stamp his feet a little bit and then say "oh ok then"... i know some horses never question anything but i honestly think that some of the quirkier/sharper ones question pretty much everything and also like to keep themselves entertained by checking that you are awake   Don't get me wrong- i know that bad behaviour can also be a sign that there is something wrong but sometimes it is just bad/baby pony behaviour?


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## KatB (24 October 2011)

He looks fab PS, and love the colour ensemble!


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## bananas_22 (24 October 2011)

dressagecrazy said:



			I didnt say there was anything wrong, however they way PS's last post is written it comes across as defensive & it seems like ive obviously annoyed.
		
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I am also one who saw it more as explanatory ....If there were concerns that pictures I posted of my horses depicted the horse as unhappy/in pain, you can be damn sure I would explain more about the horse's character and normal behaviour to clarify the chances of the horse being unhappy. I'd like to think any rider who genuinely cares about their horse's welfare and/or progress would.  Just as posting reports and photos on a public forum leaves you open to comments, posting an opinion on such posts leaves said opinion open to further explanation and defence from the original poster. 

IMHO, if you are happy to write about something that may be of concern to you, you should also be open to your concerns being allayed....we'd all like to hear every HHO horse is happy and well after all, wouldn't we?


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## ihatework (24 October 2011)

I tend to look at your posts PS but rarely comment. What I am about to say is not meant to be a 'pop'.

To take an ex-racer and turn him into a dressage horse, at the level you have done, in such a short space of time is outstanding. You can take, and should take all the credit, and be rightly proud.

What I am going to say next I'm not convinced you will take any notice of (and to be honest why should you, I'm a nobody on an internet forum), but it may make me feel a little better! My personal opinion is that you are just rushing things slightly too quickly. Although a lot of his work is very impressive I think there is evidence of tension creeping in on occassions that could come and bite you both on the backside down the line. I only say this as I know you have very high aspirations for him and it would be very sad if what I see as tension issues now were compounded later and hampered his progress.


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## monkeybum13 (24 October 2011)

I bet if it was someone else riding CS you would get a totally different response, everyone would comment on how lovely he looks and how well he is working  
Unfortunately alot of people seem to want to insult you in some way and totally forget the fantastic work you are doing with a 6yo who is also an ex racer!

He looks brilliant and I really like the bandages and saddle cloth, they're not in your face matching but look lovely on him.


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## Firewell (24 October 2011)

Diggerbez mine has 'moments' lol, in fact I've never had a horse that hasn't had moments when it was young! J can catleap, have a little buck sometimes when he gets excited or he is just really switched on.
My late mare reared once or twice and had the odd nappy incident. My old horse before that used to have a nasty buck when he was 5/6. My mums old horse could whip round and even her darling good boy who was PTS in the summer could also chuck in a 
massive buck when excited.
Its just having young blood horses isn't it?!
That's why I asked PS how she rides CS through his moments. I've got into the awful habit of pulling Jae up *naughty!!*.
Its not like CS is chucking PS off all the time, that would be different.
What I'm learning about dressage is the horse has to be so reactive to the aids it's hardly surprising that the reactiveness can cross the line sometimes?!
It's hard to ever know the full story from a brief glimpse into the fray though a forum but I think CS is an incredible example of what write off TB's can do... My friend thinks TB's are pretty useless at dressage, HA!


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (24 October 2011)

"What I am going to say next I'm not convinced you will take any notice of (and to be honest why should you, I'm a nobody on an internet forum), but it may make me feel a little better! My personal opinion is that you are just rushing things slightly too quickly. Although a lot of his work is very impressive I think there is evidence of tension creeping in on occassions that could come and bite you both on the backside down the line. I only say this as I know you have very high aspirations for him and it would be very sad if what I see as tension issues now were compounded later and hampered his progress. "

can you point out where?
as in, where is there tension in these pics that isnt in previous pics etc? clearly this is going to take a bit of digging and searching, but id like to try and see what you are seeing.


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## Booboos (24 October 2011)

For what it's worth I think it's difficult to tell from photos either way whether the horse is being pushed too hard or not, but my general feeling is that CS has a lively temperament and has always had little (and huge!!!) 'moments', so I wouldn't take that as evidence of unhappiness. Some horses are just livelier than others and when you ask them to work at this level they need to be quite switched on and this can sometimes translate into a bit of naughtiness. As for the level of work it strikes me as very comparable to what a professional would expect of a dressage horse. He would need to be at this level now so that he can compete PSG around 8 years old and GP around 11 years old.


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## Angua2 (24 October 2011)

I don't usually comment, as I am too in awe, but wow!... Now off to show my ex-racer the well behaved pictures and tell her that is what she is supposed to be doing rather than doing hand-stands and making me an air to ground missile (ouch!.... i didn't stick!).

when you have a horse with attitude, i think  it is always a little tricky to get that attitude to transfer into expression, as sometimes they just don't want to play and the attitude is just that.... attitude.

Regardless of anything else, I am looking forward to the next lot of pictures.


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## dressagecrazy (24 October 2011)

There is a very fine line between pushing a horse & pushing a horse ive never once said CS was in pain. But mentally a horse can be struggling, to me what he displays in his moments are a way of releasing the mental pressure. It doesnt matter what your doing ridden wise the mental pressure is still there. It was probably there a long time before you bought him.

 I have rehabbed a few & my own big lad is one of the worst ive ever dealt with. It took a year to get him to understand that just being ridden could be fun & gradually & slowly take him up the levels. 
He always dictated the pace of how fast we went up the levels & if he was pushed before mentally ready he would display the old behaviour which is very much like what CS is showing & if i wasnt careful he would revert.
 In time with very careful riding & management he turned into a horse that would have a go at things & then work at it happily. The biggest praise for me was when people would comment on how happy he looked in his work & he is he now lives for it.

 All of my horses are hot horses so im well aware of tantrums but im very careful to analise that im not the cause of them, which 99.99% of the time i am.
 It can be im asking something wrongly or im blocking the horse all of these things can create a horse to display unsavory behaviour. I have horses here that range from yearling to 26yo.

Im not saying CS is going to have a mental breakdown im just saying that working at such a high level for his age without doubt creates mental pressure of it's own & to be careful as to me it's showing in those pic's. The odd tantrum in a session fine but often & periods of this behaviour throughout a schooling session would make me feel that there was to much pressure on the horse.


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## Amymay (24 October 2011)

OP, beautiful horse, and you were made to sit on one - the two of you look just fantastic.


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## AshTay (24 October 2011)

I know this will make everyone roll their eyes and tell me to shut up but...

Your horse is beautiful and a credit it to you. You're a very good rider who is not only able to bring the best out in her horse but also manages to look very effortless, sophisticated and elegant in the process. Young riders come on here and look at your photos and want to be just like you (I know I would have done when I was a kid). So when they see pictures of you riding your slightly opinionated, but beautiful and well schooled, ex-racer without a hat saying that you know him inside out and that you can cope with his random outbursts and absolutely won't fall off so don't need a hat, what do you think they're going to want to go and do....????

Just a thought. I don't normally comment on yours or your sisters posts because I can't bite my tounge on the hat issue (clearly!) but I do think that people should be allowed to point out the folly of not wearing a hat so that new members can see that actually this forum in general doesn't think it's ok to risk your skull in the interests of looking good no matter how good a rider (you think) you are.

...and off I go back to NL where soapboxes are welcomed...


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## Jane_Lou (24 October 2011)

AshTay said:



			. So when they see pictures of you riding your slightly opinionated, but beautiful and well schooled, ex-racer without a hat saying that you know him inside out and that you can cope with his random outbursts and absolutely won't fall off so don't need a hat, what do you think they're going to want to go and do....????
		
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But she is wearing a hat...........

Some people can just do nothing right can they.........................


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## AshTay (24 October 2011)

Jane_Lou said:



			But she is wearing a hat...........

Some people can just do nothing right can they.........................
		
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lol, sorry, yeah, was referring to other threads (should have made that clear). Durr!
Should really say well done for wearing a hat this time!!! (and please, please, please do it every time!!!).


ETA: ...and IMHO she's doing everything else right!!!


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (24 October 2011)

"The odd tantrum in a session fine but often & periods of this behaviour throughout a schooling session would make me feel that there was to much pressure on the horse."

he only did it twice, and then he thought about it once more, but decided against it of his own free will .................and as ive said previously, these tantrums are far less frequent and far less intense that they have been previously-do you not think that might tie in more with a submission issue that an mental pressure issue? 

third time-where is he showing this tension? If you can see it in those pics can you point it out so that i can discuss what you are seeing....................clearly he isnt going to look happy when trying to ditch me and getting a pasting, but in the actual work pics, where is this mental pressure showing?


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## CalllyH (24 October 2011)

Good girl, you know you don't look half bad in a hat. Please remember that poor girl from Leicestershire  

On another note what a monkey!


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## quirky (24 October 2011)

dressagecrazy said:



			Im not saying CS is going to have a mental breakdown im just saying that working at such a high level for his age without doubt creates mental pressure of it's own & to be careful as to me it's showing in those pic's. The odd tantrum in a session fine but often & periods of this behaviour throughout a schooling session would make me feel that there was to much pressure on the horse.
		
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PS has shown moments in time with her pictures. She could have schooled him for an hour and he had a 2 minute wobbler. Alternatively, she could've schooled him for 15 minutes and he had a 5 minute wobbler. Obviously, one scenario would be infinitely worse than the other. We just don't know and therefore I don't believe any of us are in a position to question the horses ability to cope.

As a non competitive rider (now), I can tell if my horse is taking the mick, has pain issues or really can't cope with what is being asked. I'm pretty sure PS is the same.

Having been on a yard with an ex-olympian dressage rider and a GB team rider, both their horses threw plenty of wobblers. Not every day but it was quite a frequent event. In fact, I took to not riding in with the ex-olympian because her horses were so wired it rubbed off on mine, who couldn't cope just seeing it .


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## bensababy (24 October 2011)

I very rarely venture in here.. and mainly only do to keep nosing a the beauty that is CS. Huge fan!


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## dressagecrazy (24 October 2011)

quirky said:



			PS has shown moments in time with her pictures. She could have schooled him for an hour and he had a 2 minute wobbler. Alternatively, she could've schooled him for 15 minutes and he had a 5 minute wobbler. Obviously, one scenario would be infinitely worse than the other. We just don't know and therefore I don't believe any of us are in a position to question the horses ability to cope.

As a non competitive rider (now), I can tell if my horse is taking the mick, has pain issues or really can't cope with what is being asked. I'm pretty sure PS is the same.

Having been on a yard with an ex-olympian dressage rider and a GB team rider, both their horses threw plenty of wobblers. Not every day but it was quite a frequent event. In fact, I took to not riding in with the ex-olympian because her horses were so wired it rubbed off on mine, who couldn't cope just seeing it .
		
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So does the post above mean that i shouldnt be asking or commenting on anything PS posts because she knows better as do you? Im still learning with horses & still make mistakes so i dont believe when it comes to horses anyone can know better.  I realise im commenting on photo's but thats all i have to go on.

As to PS's previous question for me submission comes from the mind.

Submission can only come from a willing horse thats confident in you & what your asking & is physically / mentally ready.
 But as a rider/trainer you have to be 100% confident that your not pushing or forcing the submission otherwise you will always have the pretence for outbursts & a horse that suffers lack of confidence & mental pressure to build then if the horse is really pushed a meltdown happens they all have different mental strenths just like us.

Im not saying this is what is happening with CS but in all but the first pic i see a horse thats getting gradually more upset. 

I will leave it there & leave you alone to get on with life this is only an internet forum & im only expressing my own personal opinion & experiences


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## quirky (24 October 2011)

dressagecrazy said:



			So does the post above mean that i shouldnt be asking or commenting on anything PS posts because she knows better as do you?
		
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Wow, that's a pretty big leap!!

Comment all you like .

I'm not defending PS at all. As I said, the percentage of time the horse has a wobbler should have quite a bearing on the comments.
PS hasn't said how long he schooled, how long he misbehaved etc, so I could be equally as wrong as you are right.

Does it matter?
Not one iota.

PS seems to know what she's on with and has a goal she wishes to reach. I wish her every luck with reaching that goal


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## imr (24 October 2011)

diggerbez said:



			DC- i didn't think your post was having a 'pop' at all- but equally PS's reply wasn't.... just out of interest- do many horses not have little 'episodes'? mine certainly does, if he's not really wanting to do something, he'll say no, stamp his feet a little bit and then say "oh ok then"... i know some horses never question anything but i honestly think that some of the quirkier/sharper ones question pretty much everything and also like to keep themselves entertained by checking that you are awake   Don't get me wrong- i know that bad behaviour can also be a sign that there is something wrong but sometimes it is just bad/baby pony behaviour?
		
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This. There is a bit of a tendency on here for people to assume that naughtiness must always be caused by pain. It is of course something you have to check and eliminate. I am not saying that one shouldnt check teeth, backs etc, as of course these should be checked regularly.  But young horses (and older ones sometimes too) do usually go through phases of testing the boundaries and the like and often there isnt anything wrong, other than do I really have to today I would rather not so I'm going to buck or spook at the little shed blah blah type behaviours all of which differ from horse to horse.


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## dafthoss (24 October 2011)

Tr0uble said:



			there may be one other person up for a lesson whilse we're at it too!
		
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ME!!! I'm near huntingdon well not in term time but if your down in holiday time  I will warn you in advance we are not great at the dressage diva thing and I will make a fool of my self .

Any way avioding the discussion going on currently  I found the pics of CS having a moment funny I like the one where all his feet apear to be on the same spot, cleaver little man . I think we need more video updates .


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (24 October 2011)

he worked for 45mins and the only tantrums he had are the 2 you see in these pics.

dressagecrazy you still havent actually pointed out where this tension/evidence of pushing is shown in the pics!!!!!!!!!!! in the shoulder in pic. the HP pic. the canter pics........where are the signs of tension?

iv already said the rein back pic isnt the nicest due to lip flipping and would say that in the change pic yes there is tension shown in the jaw and neck,  i do genuinely feel that there is always a small amount of tension shown when the horse is having to work hard physically because of the muscle tension involved and whenthey are thinking hard too, there is bound to be momentary tension and here it is captured on camera, but i bet most people have moments of the same.

in the other trot/canter pics i see a horse using his body, with his ears on his rider and a relatively still mouth and soft neck/back/ i dont see any obvious signs of massive tension so would welcome your observations DC.he isnt short in the neck, mouth is softly chewing, ears are not pinned, eyes are not rolling, muscles are not bulging etc etc.


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## horseywelsh (24 October 2011)

Gorgeous horse, lovely photos, nobody can knock what you have achieved with this horse. You must have very tough skin to put up with alot of uncalled for bitter tasting comments your threads receive. Good on you girl. Look forward to the next CS update/Area Fest report/piccies


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## dressagecrazy (24 October 2011)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			he worked for 45mins and the only tantrums he had are the 2 you see in these pics.

dressagecrazy you still havent actually pointed out where this tension/evidence of pushing is shown in the pics!!!!!!!!!!! in the shoulder in pic. the HP pic. the canter pics........where are the signs of tension?

iv already said the rein back pic isnt the nicest due to lip flipping and would say that in the change pic yes there is tension shown in the jaw and neck,  i do genuinely feel that there is always a small amount of tension shown when the horse is having to work hard physically because of the muscle tension involved and whenthey are thinking hard too, there is bound to be momentary tension and here it is captured on camera, but i bet most people have moments of the same.

in the other trot/canter pics i see a horse using his body, with his ears on his rider and a relatively still mouth and soft neck/back/ i dont see any obvious signs of massive tension so would welcome your observations DC.he isnt short in the neck, mouth is softly chewing, ears are not pinned, eyes are not rolling, muscles are not bulging etc etc.
		
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Thats because i see it creeping in from the half step pic, the first pic shown is lovely he looks soft, swingy & happy.
 This changes in the half step pics when he he shows a hard eye & tension through the body the overall softness you had is lost. Funnily he then goes on to have an episode.

We all see things differently im just a tuned to watching horses in depth these are the things i see.


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## dressagecrazy (24 October 2011)

horseywelsh said:



			Gorgeous horse, lovely photos, nobody can knock what you have achieved with this horse. You must have very tough skin to put up with alot of uncalled for bitter tasting comments your threads receive. Good on you girl. Look forward to the next CS update/Area Fest report/piccies 

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Come on im being far from bitter, jesus forget it people. Obviously everyone thinks it's fine to ooo & ahhh & i can see why they are a stunning pair. I have tried to be constructive i think PS has done a grand job im just worried that it's all moving to fast. Sometimes you need someone removed to give you hints.


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## Saratoga (24 October 2011)

dressagecrazy said:



			Thats because i see it creeping in from the half step pic, the first pic shown is lovely he looks soft, swingy & happy.
 This changes in the half step pics when he he shows a hard eye & tension through the body the overall softness you had is lost. Funnily he then goes on to have an episode.

We all see things differently im just a tuned to watching horses in depth these are the things i see.
		
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I try and stay out of these threads, but I have to support and agree with DC on this instance (as she seems to be getting a bashing now!). These are probably the most unhappy pics I have seen of CS so far. 

It depends on the horse how often they have 'tantrums'. And it also depends on if they are genuine kevin tantrums, or if they horse is genuinely trying to say something is too hard or they don't understand. Whether it is panic, or just blunt refusal to do something. Without knowing you and CS personally, or seeing it in the flesh, it's hard to know what it is.

But because you do post pics of the good and bad (which is good as there are too many people who only report the good stuff) you will get comments that he doesn't look happy. 

Why he doesn't look happy only you know. But I agree he doesn't look happy in a lot of these pics.

Just my two pence worth.


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## horseywelsh (24 October 2011)

dressagecrazy said:



			Come on im being far from bitter, jesus forget it people. Obviously everyone thinks it's fine to ooo & ahhh & i can see why they are a stunning pair. I have tried to be constructive i think PS has done a grand job im just worried that it's all moving to fast. Sometimes you need someone removed to give you hints.
		
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FWI what I was saying was not directed at you, or anyone in particular, just a general remark having sometimes being taken aback by comments on PS threads.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (24 October 2011)

any comments on the lateral pics or the canter? i can see he looks like he's having to work harder at the half steps than the preceeding trot (because he is, simply), but perhaps im blind, but in the canter esp to me, he looks very at ease?

im just going out to ride now, will try and upload some more pics from the same session when i come back in, if anyone is interested


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## OneInAMillion (24 October 2011)

For feck sakes 

I'm so jealous of people (obviously like dressagecrazy) who can have the most perfect horses in the world 

Do you not think if CS did not want PS to ride him anymore as he was  too much he would do a "Proper" display of his acrobatics until she was on the floor...at the end of the day if a horse doesn't want to do something it won't - and although PS rides him fantastically if he didn't want to do it the reality is no-one would stay on 

And yes, I am having a pop. Everyone moans at PS saying "oh you don't let me have an opinion" yet EVERY SINGLE comment she makes people go out of there way to turn it into something nasty.


I'm so bl00dy peed off - makes me want to leave this forum the people who "sit on their high horses"


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## Saratoga (24 October 2011)

OneInAMillion said:



			Do you not think if CS did not want PS to ride him anymore as he was  too much he would do a "Proper" display of his acrobatics until she was on the floor...at the end of the day if a horse doesn't want to do something it won't - and although PS rides him fantastically if he didn't want to do it the reality is no-one would stay on 

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No I don't. There are MANY MANY horses out there that put up with a lot of bad riding and bad management (NOT including PS here in ANY way). Horses are by nature very forgiving and will put up with a lot. Just because a horse doesn't dump the rider at every given opportunity doesn't mean he is a happy athlete.


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## Renvers (24 October 2011)

Glad mine isn't the only TB who asserts himself in an episode ;D

your horse looks lovely and looks in the pics to be working well. A friend observed to me that me and my TB have a pattern; we will start off well,  horse picks a fight, I win (or sit out airs and then kick on  ) and then he settles down and carries on working. 

I sometimes wonder if it is a male thing - woman in charge, male rebels in effort to assert themselves, realises woman is right and does what told.

I must say i enjoy your matchy matchy combinations too


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## dressagecrazy (24 October 2011)

OneInAMillion, the only one who's being nasty is yourself. I'm glad you like my perfect horses they are rather super if I say so myself. Note the sarcasm!

No horse is perfect & I'm far from perfect I was just trying to be constructive but hey never mind. I also won't be put off by posting I don't care if you don't like what I'm saying I am allowed to post my thoughts as are you. I am careful with what I write & try never to be nasty I'm not like that In RL I'm certainly not going to be like it on here behind a computer.


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## Ginn (24 October 2011)

Renvers said:



			I sometimes wonder if it is a male thing - woman in charge, male rebels in effort to assert themselves, realises woman is right and does what told.
		
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Haha!!! Quite possibly completely true! I on the otherhand have a mare who is simply and opinated madam with attitude and unfortunately takes much more convincing to do as she's told!

I can totally see both sides of the argument: Mine *will* have a strop when she doesn't understand something or finds what I'm asking too difficult BUT it feels completely different to her being an opinionated little witch, the latter of which features in 99% of schooling sessions - the difference is I have now learn't how to ride her through genuine naughtiness and when to ease off/ask a different way/for less when she is genuinely finding things a bit too much. I think anyone who knows their horse well is capeable of feeling the subtle differences, even in a very forgiving horse, and I would hope has the sense to act accordingly. Likewise, as a teacher I also recognise that to make progress you have to constantly challenge/stretch what has been established already (horse or human) to move on, try something harder and progressively and sensitively ask for more. If you didn't then you wouldn't progress and of course you would expect some tension/tears/tantrums. You wouldn't believe the hysterics I had in my Y4/5 class when I introduced "chunking" (long division) last week. But you know what, we worked on it slowly, pushing those that needed pushing because they naturally backed of anything hard and/or new, challanging those that were ready for the challenge and working more slowly in smaller pieces with those for whom it was all a bit much. And the children who were'nt ready - well they did something else and will move on as and when they are. And guess what - all children achieved their intended outcomes and actually grew in confidence as a result, despite the initial wibbles and strops! It is about making educated and well informed decisions based on the individual and yes, it may not always be easy but if it was then chances are the majority wouldn't progress!

Personally I think CS looks fab - I can only dream of having such a well schooled horse who for the most part is relaxed, responsive and has such a good attitude to flatwork. Furthermore I find it very comforting to see I am not the only one to have moments of tension, acrobatics and attitude, especially with a partnership that I often admire.


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## sam-b (24 October 2011)

Dear Fran, have you bought half of su along?!  x


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## BuzzLightyear (24 October 2011)

I have to say I am confused as to why PS's threads always end up the same way, with people jumping in and on top of each other 

I for one like her updates, and to see how she's bringing CS on.

Its been aaaaaages since she last posted and i dont want this or other peoples reports to stop because they fear what people may say, it would make this forum a very dull place.


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## Pachamama (24 October 2011)

This is what I hate about this forum and why I seldom post. Dressagecrazy has made some perfectly valid points in a non-aggressive or hostile manner and is being treated like some sort of pariah (with a few exceptions) and as usual the accusations of bitterness and jealousy creep in.
CS is a TB, he will have been backed as a TWO year old and it is not a far reach to comprehend that a horse started that young COULD possibly be suffering under the strain, mental or physical of the level of work he is doing now. Why can't the responses be limited to a fair and well-reasoned discussion of the pros and cons of PS's chosen course of training and not a bitchfest about how so and so MUST be jealous if they disagree?? It IS possible to have a different point of view and NOT be jealous for heaven's sake. 
And, in conclusion, I bet that if I posted about my horse resisting and / or rearing during training I'd have an avalanche of accusations of how he must be in pain / I'm asking too much of him, etc, etc.
And NO, I'm not jealous. I'm perfectly happy with what I and my horses have achieved, and if I WERE going to be jealous of someone, it would NOT be PS.
I'm off now. You can all stew in your own little pits of venom.


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## Llanali (24 October 2011)

I've got a question.......to those who enjoy the bandwagon hat argument.....do you pull people over if they don't cross the road holding their child's hand? Do you honk and flash if they aren't wearing a seatbelt? Do you warn them of the health dangers of drinking in a pub?

Or, do you see it, think as some one else said 'Well I wouldn't do that, I think it's silly' and drive on?


And as to the other- I am not in a million years going to be capable of detecting slight tension in 7/8 photos on a forum of a random horse and rider. As such, I'm going to say 'Wow', feel inspired, and go and ride my own horse, with a brighter hope that some TBs out of racing will make it.


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## VGM (24 October 2011)

llanali can i please give you an award for being sensible frank and raising a valid point that whether or not her horse is being produced to other peoples tastes at least someone has taken a chance on a thoroughbred and its not another one thats ended up on the meat waggon which i think is a far more real and appropriate issue


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## Tempi (24 October 2011)

Im afraid im with DC on this, quite often CS looks tense, has his jaw and poll set and does not looked relaxed and soft in his outline.  If you look at pictures of say FB's Frodo and Rauti they are both in my opinion happy horses who are relaxed and soft in their work.  

Its not that people are picking faults with PS (or CS) its simply other peoples opinions which we are all entitled too.  

Im also with DC in that i do worry that you are pushing him too much PS, he might be talented but hes only 6 years old, theres no need to hurry him especially when he has tension issues as it is.  You obviously do very well competing in your area however your marks (IMO) are quite low and if I was in the same situation as you I would personally be striving for 67/68% at Medium before moving up to Adv Med and so on.  But thats my personal opinion and I dont believe in rushing horses up the levels before they are happily scoring decent consistant marks at the level below.  

Am sure im going to get shouted down and abused, do crack on everyone - I hardly come on here any more so probably wont read the abuse that gets thrown back at me anyway!!

Id like to add that obviously CS is super talented and PS has done really well with him and obviously manages to cope very well with his tantrums that he throws.


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## dressagelove (24 October 2011)

lmao! this thread has got me so confused! even the simplest things can develop into an argument round here  what does it matter really? The horse is beautiful and looks to be performing well but I think all arguments are valid, people just get a bit carried away. I'm not sitting on the fence or anything


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (24 October 2011)

these are a further 3 pics from the same session.
i can quite assure you the horse is neither set, nor tense-he fairly trampolined me round tonight with his little ears pricked so hard they met in the middle bless him, with not a tantrum or deep leap in sight.

i dont think you can say this horse doesnt look happy:






relaxed neck?






looks happy enough in his face/eye to me?






tempi- i do find your post a bit contradictory TBH. I dont think its fair to drag another forum member in to this, and im not snide enough to go looking or bring up old posts, but i bet any money i can find pics of those horses looking momentarily tense, or in fact of virtually any horse looking peed off for a moment.


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## kontiki_lady (24 October 2011)

I'm impressed you can all tell so much from a photo, your powers of deduction must be amazing......  From my knowledge of Fran and her horses she always works hard on suppleness and relaxation but insists on a good work ethic and works hard which is why she gets good results.  From my knowledge of Star he has always had these moments, IMO like all horses do, pushing the boundaries.

Fran he's looking great, Ali and I looked at your latest set of pics and went "wow".


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## coreteam1 (24 October 2011)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			the episodes are not new, are lesser in frequency and er intensity(!) 

there are *yes* horses and *maybe* horses, CS is a *maybe* horse-he has to check how much i want it, each and every day, and thats fine with me because it doesnt bother me in the slightest and i couldnt afford a *yes* horse with GP potential.
		
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Mine is a *mayb*e horse too, he test's the water most days (odd occasion where he just can't be bothered and works fluently from the onset) to see if I am with him.  Definitely gives in after the first few attempts.   
Your boy wouldn't be as talented as he is if he didn't have some kind of spart there and I've seen him for a few years now and he's a saint compared to when I first ever saw you and him together. 

I think he looks the perfect package of 'super dooper' achievement from a very good and devoted rider and a highly talented horse.  
Don't fix what's not broken and if all is well which it is in your case, go for it and reach the level you want to, in the best time you feel right for both you and him.  
Just because he is sailing up the levels doesn't mean he is being pushed, I think it just means he's a talanted horse who loves the job he's doing right now


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## luckyhorseshoe (24 October 2011)

PS please continue to post your photos, i for one always enjoy reading yours and your sisters posts. I love the photos and I thank you for being so honest about the 'highs' and 'lows' of horses.

I fully admit that i am an amateur and will therefore probably have my opinion disregarded but i thought i would just flip it on its head for a second:

1) a happy horse is at grass stuffing his face....im not saying they don't enjoy their work but we have to accept that a horse is never going to be truely happy working.

2) CS is only 6yrs old, of course he will have moments...thats the joys of young horses. I am fortunate to have a very genuine 5 yr old but occassionally the devil horns come out and i have to wedge myself into the saddle.

3) competitive dressage is what it is and we aspire to be at the top, we may need to do things differently to what we would if we just training for trainng's sake.


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## luckyhorseshoe (24 October 2011)

i dont think you can say this horse doesnt look happy:






Really like this one PS!!


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## rowy (24 October 2011)

Loving the pics! I only hope that one day Row will go like this!
And just have to say, I think his neck is like body building for horses- look at that muscle!!! Should look at it when learning the muscles of the horse at uni


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## Llanali (24 October 2011)

Vgm- all awards gratefully received!! Lol


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## Aperchristmastree (24 October 2011)

Gotta love how PS's threads always end in arguments 

PS - CS is looking amazing as usual.  I didn't actually realise he was only 6, that horse is going to go a long way!  

I understand why you come across all defensive because you do often get a bit of a slating on here, particularly about the hat.  However, I will say that DC does raise a perfectly valid point about how advanced he is at his age.  I get the feeling that CS is a horse that likes and needs to be challenged because he is a clever boy so I understand why he is progressing so quickly.  However you know your horse, maybe it's just a thing to bear in mind.


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## Rouletterose (24 October 2011)

Tempi said:



			Im afraid im with DC on this, quite often CS looks tense, has his jaw and poll set and does not looked relaxed and soft in his outline.  If you look at pictures of say FB's Frodo and Rauti they are both in my opinion happy horses who are relaxed and soft in their work.  

Its not that people are picking faults with PS (or CS) its simply other peoples opinions which we are all entitled too.  

Im also with DC in that i do worry that you are pushing him too much PS, he might be talented but hes only 6 years old, theres no need to hurry him especially when he has tension issues as it is.  You obviously do very well competing in your area however your marks (IMO) are quite low and if I was in the same situation as you I would personally be striving for 67/68% at Medium before moving up to Adv Med and so on.  But thats my personal opinion and I dont believe in rushing horses up the levels before they are happily scoring decent consistant marks at the level below.  

Am sure im going to get shouted down and abused, do crack on everyone - I hardly come on here any more so probably wont read the abuse that gets thrown back at me anyway!!

Id like to add that obviously CS is super talented and PS has done really well with him and obviously manages to cope very well with his tantrums that he throws.
		
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^^^^^^^^^^
Best reply on here, totally agree.


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## Madam_max (24 October 2011)

Rouletterose said:



			^^^^^^^^^^
Best reply on here, totally agree.
		
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Also agree


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## charlie76 (24 October 2011)

Also agree with the people who Have said consider slowing down.  Of course you have done Well with him but his naughtiness tells you he is not coping with What is being asked 
 To say That he doesn't do it a lot is simply not true,  many reports/pics you put up tell of similar episodes. 
With regards to commenting on the neck, although the horse is out to the contact, the muscle defination doesn't scream relaxed to me.
You Also seem to Have to almost create the bend in the half pass by crossing your inside hand across neck showing That the suppleness and relaxation to peform the movement is not yet there.
what marks and comments do You get for the lateral moves and changes? This of course should be your guide.
I would also look at sticking to the snaffle until he is totally confident and happy in all his work as the double will enhance and lack of forwardness.
I have Just sold a Very talented and balanced ex racer and the temptation to over push has been there but he soon told me, in a similar way to yours, That although the potential is there, the physical and mental ability was not yet. I backed off and the happy althlete returned. 
At six, he has years to be a world beater.  Better to give him the time he needs to be the potential superstar he could be.


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## sebhorse (24 October 2011)

I don't post much. I'm a bit of a lurker but there are two sorts of people on this forum:

1.  The followers, mainly young girls/ladies in ore or someone else's prettystunning/talanted horse.  They make it known their horse will never be as good and they won't ever ride as well as the said pretty horse and it's rider

2.  The professional/far more experienced horse owners who read the threads, comment very little but would love to write what they think but most of the time they don't just for peace.  When they do they are bombarded with 'critique' from all the girlie/ladies who follow the pretty horses/popular thread posters.


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## TarrSteps (25 October 2011)

I am not getting into the discussion but there was a comment earlier about the double bridle and when it's "appropriate".  To anyone out there in tv land (foreigner joke  ), the 6 year olds at things like the Bundeschampionships and the World Championships for Young Horse, go in snaffles.  And they are, even in the estimation of the very experienced people who produce them, proper prodigal freaks, well ahead of most of their contemporaries.

Anyway, nothing to do with PS or her choices or anything else - not my business.  Just a point for anyone out there thinking their horse *should* be doing this or that.

Carry on.


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## PorkChop (25 October 2011)

Super, super photos - you ride him beautifully


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## 4faults (25 October 2011)

Sebhorse- I find that quite a narrow minded and insulting view to be honest. I keep my replies on these threads short and supportive because of the likelihood that PS will be jumped on for something as I'm sure a lot of other people do. If I have anything to offer advice wise I save it for fb. I don't think you should be so quick to make judgements.

As to any horse that has the odd moment being pushed to far, one of my horses will have the odd moment. The other will sometimes become inattentive and spooky.

It is my job as the rider to asses why my horses do this and to bring the focus back to work and make it an enjoyable session.
How many of you have been there in the flesh when PS schools? How many see how she conducts her sessions?

 PS has stressed that she only plays with more advanced moves to prepare him and suss his capabilities. Dont you think she would be jumped on if she hadnt spent time preparing him and building his strength and suddenly asked all of this of him when he was a lot older?

I know my instructor wouldn't allow me to push my horses too far too fast and I highly doubt PS's instructor would either. Let her enjoy her boy.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (25 October 2011)

"I dont find your posts half as annoying and smug as your sisters"

actually?!as in, you actually thought it was appropriate and reasonable to bring that in to a totally seperate thread?!

i really dont think there is any point in bringing Nik in to this, except to try and throw another low blow, it doesnt really matter what you think CallyH because what i think of you after that cant be printed!

charlie76-im glad you definately know my horse better than me and can say for absolute sure what his "naughtiness" tells you ................i cant possible remember every single mark for the lateral work but he's had all 7 except one 6 for his changes, which i dont think is a bad track record at all.

its amazing how many people have such selective memories, because re the double-iv actually commented several times on past threads that the horse is more settled in his mouth and MORE FORWARD in the double, aka he's happier in the double, as i have found other ex-racers to be...perhaps its because its totally unlike any bit they encountered racing, who knows, but if the horse is obviously that much happier in it, taking a better contact, then so be in and he can stick with the double...............i havent had any negative comments on it from judges so clearly they are not seeing it as a problem.

also-yes he does throw these little flids on a regular basis i guess, but not half as regular as they were, and not half as determindly, iv said that several times too but its conviniently ignored that the horse is getting better not worse! i think iv commented on nearly every show report for the last 3 months that his attitude in the warm up is improving every time,even without his snuff(!) but that is obviously proof of nothing...................

finally,my little yard jockey has been riding him a bit recently, with the intention of going out to do some elems on him, if he was THAT brain fried, fixed in the contact, behind the leg, un-supple and unhappy.........................i doubt a slim nervous 15yo would get much of a tune out of him, but she does........ I guess the proof will be in the pudding though and you'll just have to wait for her show reports.

i post the bad pics as well as the good because people seem to have this unrealistic idea that its all lightness and joy every single session, or that it should be.................when in reality, anyone who has trained a number of horses will know that sometimes they throw something unexpected at you, and that some horses just are trickier than others..................training wise CS is the easiest horse ive had, iv not had to teach him much, just set it up and let him rock and roll................but RIDING wise, he wouldnt be everyones cup of tea and wouldnt every be described as a novice ride etc. id like to give hope to everyone else struggling with something a bit tricky or naughty, that it will be worth it.

shame on me for showing reality as it happens.


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## dressagelove (25 October 2011)

I have been following this thread with interest, as have being bitten by the dressage bug hard myself  I think PS has done well to contain her temper on these threads, the horse is an absolute stunner, and I don't know about anyone else, but I will admit I am extremely jealous, yes, jealous that she has got such a tune out of him, I also have an ex racer who is like a wonky donkey and can only just about do a nice prelim when he feels like it.

You are obviously a talented rider. How long have u been dressage riding? Is he your only horse? (I havent seen many of your threads)

As far as the comment about his neck muscle not looking relaxed, he is a TB, and TB muscles are very defined, I don't think its an issue.

As for peoples reactions here, although they will deny it, maybe they are a bit jealous... I admitted I am!! But thats no reason to make the gal feel bad about her spectacular horse


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## coreteam1 (25 October 2011)

My trainer is coming over tomorrow and if I ask her how her new horse is going and she replies ''well he's been a testing ride again'' shall I tell her to back off him?  Tell her she's going to quickly and it's his way of telling her he's not ready?

He's 4yrs old, just been bought over from Germany and being prepared for the 5yr old classes next year.....Does she know what she's doing??

Of course she does! We all know horses are quirky animals and CS isn't objecting to his work, it's his character.  My horse doesn't object to his work, he is spooky and sharp but again that's his character.  

 I understand everyone wanting to give their opinion, because after all that's all it is... their opinion.  We all know what it's like on a busy livery yard (well some of us do) and the competitive'ness' that goes around and the bitchiness between riders of all levels, well sometimes it comes across like that on here but it's harder to word correctly/tactfully?
It does sometimes come across as jealousy whether it's meant to or not.

I certainly wish my horse was going as well as CS and although things are not right at the moment and whether it's with my current horse or another one, I too hope one day to ride at a higher level.  In the mean time I can't wait to watch and support CS at his next competition.  Both horse and rider have clearly worked hard and deserve to be where they are.
From what I've seen and heard PS rides very well, sympathetically, doesn't bully and is not an agressive rider reaching for the higer levels in a short space of time out of anything other than both being pretty talanted.
PS has some good trainers too and I'm sure they give her good advice that she listens too and lets face it at British Dressage I see the same names year after year doing the same level they did about two or three years back 

My post is definitely not aimed at anyone and it's not a post to stick up for PS because she can do that for herself very well, I just wanted to to share my thoughts about yard gossip and how sometimes that posting here comes across like yard gossip  

oh and just to end my post, how in the name of 'whoever' can someone tell from a photo whether the horse looks sad, happy, in pain, tortured, ruined, battered, loved or any other emotion we want to think of?


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## Saratoga (25 October 2011)

coreteam1 said:



			We all know horses are quirky animals and CS isn't objecting to his work, it's his character.
		
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Well that's ok then, as long as it's in his character to look more tense and sucked back than he used to, and nothing to do with the questions being asked of him then we don't need to worry 

And yes, if people don't agree with PS and the way she is training her horse then it MUST be because of jealousy. What other reason could there possibly be. Sigh.

Horses that are pushed too far too young don't have long and happy careers. The proof will be in the pudding so to speak.


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## coreteam1 (25 October 2011)

Saratoga said:



			Well that's ok then, as long as it's in his character to look more tense and sucked back than he used to, and nothing to do with the questions being asked of him then we don't need to worry 

And yes, if people don't agree with PS and the way she is training her horse then it MUST be because of jealousy. What other reason could there possibly be. Sigh.

Horses that are pushed too far too young don't have long and happy careers. The proof will be in the pudding so to speak.
		
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A photo is a moment of suspension (in the camera not the horse) so we can't judge the horse's tension from merley looking at a photo of him. We can only judge and therefore truely comment if we actually saw him being ridden in 'real life'.  I've seen him in real life and he is definitely nothing like he use to be.  He was tense previously (he is an ex racer after all) but now much better, again it's a moment shown on film.

I certainly don't think anyone should be worried about what someone is doing with their horse on here, it's none of our business for a start and there is nothing going on that anyone should be worried about? 
It does sometimes come across as jealousy though, I do think though that it's hard to write what you want to, without it being read incorrectly so to speak  

I totally agree with ''proof in the pudding'' and lot's of horses get broken early on, however, how do we all know (on here) that CS really isn't the talanted horse he seems to be? How do we know he isn't going to storm through his next year and come out on top?  We don't.  So all we can do is watch.  I don't mean people shouldn't comment and the first person Dressagecrazy was tactfull in the way she wrote her post, it was her opinion but then others come in and that's where sometimes it goes pear shaped


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## dressagelove (25 October 2011)

And yes, if people don't agree with PS and the way she is training her horse then it MUST be because of jealousy. What other reason could there possibly be. Sigh.

Horses that are pushed too far too young don't have long and happy careers. The proof will be in the pudding so to speak.[/QUOTE]

I never said everyone posting on here would be jealous, but I bet a few people are! I admitted honestly that I am!
It just bugs me that people carry the welfare of every horse in the world on their own shoulders. It is her horse, and if she ruins it, which I doubt she will, that is her prerogative.


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## coreteam1 (25 October 2011)

hayleyshep88 said:



			It just bugs me that people carry the welfare of every horse in the world on their own shoulders. It is her horse, and if she ruins it, which I doubt she will, that is her prerogative.
		
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Exactly!  What has it got to do with us anyway, nothing.  

It's the same on a big yard though, someone will comment on how many times ''such and such'' has ridden her horse over the jumps that week.  How many times 'so and so' has been to the yard that week, or not.  How many times 'so and so' has been in the school.  It's no one's business.  The horses welfare is not even in question here.


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## charlie76 (25 October 2011)

I'm sorry, I have to agree with Saratoga, PS often posts or post pictures of the horse being naughty/tense so it is quite a regular thing with the horse.
Also, if you only want people to put nice comments then make sure you put that in your post, if you don't want a few comments that you don't want to hear then don't put the pics/vids/posts on here!


As for jealousy! I am far from it, I have four of my own talented horses, I don't have time to be jealous!


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## glamourpuss (25 October 2011)

I'm confused why at 6 years old CS is being pushed too hard yet I can think of 2 other HHO member's horses who are younger & seem to be working as hard if not harder but in Eventing.....
I think they are a brilliant set of photos & it's interesting to see the 'not as good' side. 
I hate how PS threads always turn into a bashing about something....everyone cries 'we're not jealous, we're not jealous!' but then what *is* it that makes it ok to tear the bloody girl to bits every 5 minutes.

And I think everyone missed a very important point. This isn't some untouched, bred for the job warmblood this is a sharp ex-racehorse who has already learnt some behaviours from his previous life. PS has done a marvellous job with him & I think we should bloody applaud her not bitch & gripe at her.


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## VGM (25 October 2011)

you might not have time to be jealous but you have the time to tell someone else what to do with her horse.......


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (25 October 2011)

i watched a vid on horse hero last night , of Laura B working her 6yo................she commented something along the lines of "he's more prone to kicking at my leg on this rein"...........which to me sort of implies that he often kicks at her leg, and sure enough, later in the vid he does a good old sideways ninja kick that had it been captured in a series of stills, would look every bit as peed off as the pics of CS (and i gather the same horse did the same thing in the demo at the nationals..............)

im sure you would all be quick enough to cry that he must just be quirky/voicing his opinion on working for a living as clearly LB is going to know better than to push too hard, so what is it that makes it ok for her horse to let rip once or twice but not mine? (for the record, i think she's doing a fab job on an obviously not easy horse and he did not look at all tense or unhappy except when kicking).

Yes there are plenty of pics of CS throwing some shapes because i get 200/300 pics of each lesson and thus the little outburst is nearly always captuured on camera, and because they often look amusing-i do post them. I bet every poster here has pics of their horse lookign tense or peed off and just doesnt post them.

some horses go crooked, some snatch at the bit, some go behind the leg.....mine kicks and then spins, he then picks up where he left off and carries on......................its just a more obvious way of objecting.................if he was snatching at the bridle twice in a session would that somehow be more acceptable? Iv already said he learnt to do this racing/decided it was a good way of getting out of work whilst in race training, so he's unlikely to ever stop it completely, it will always be *his thing*.

Saratoga-i know that one of your horses used to be very heavy and very strong, perhaps that was his way of saying he was being pushed..................or perhaps he just needed to grow up and get on with it, and certainly you opted to push him though it and keep working.
your other horse is tense and spooky and also sometimes rears-is it his history comming back to haunt him or are you pushing him too hard? again, you have opted to push through it and keep working. (and in both scenarios where quite correct i think BTW)

so why then, when my horse tries to intimidate me in to letting him be a pasture puff, am i ripped to shreds for pushing him though and telling him to pull his socks up?!

I have no objection to CC,and as someone has said, DC's original posts were not a problem, but this is now some kind of witch hunt/ jumping on the bandwagon.

and for the 500th time..................the outbursts are smaller, and less frequent.....................do you not think that means the horse is getting more settled and thus that im quite possibly doing the right thing to push him though it?! or is that just being conviniently ignored?


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## Nocturnal (25 October 2011)

So if I'm reading this correctly... unless a horse is an angel at all times, with no outbursts or resitances, then it's being pushed too hard and can't cope with the pressure? Well that's me screwed then, I guess I should retire my horse as he obviously can't cope with being worked at prelim level!



Prince33Sp4rkle said:








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So this was after the first strop. Looks pretty good to me? Nice and relaxed; can't see the tension, personally... eye doesn't look hard... Can someone point out what you're all talking about?


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (25 October 2011)

thanks but you wont get an answer-iv asked numerous times for specifics about where people can see the tension and no one can give them!


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## Perfect_Pirouette (25 October 2011)

This thread has just gotten ridiculous! I think everyone needs to get on with their own horses instead of sitting about biatching at someone elses. I think until you see a horse in the flesh/ride it yourself you cannot possibly comment.

Also, I was at the nationals and saw the LB demo. It was her 5 or 6 year old that she was on and she was trying to get him to do flying changes across the diagonal. He wasn't having any of it and kept putting in the most ginourmous bucks in objection, but she kept asking a and after a while he finally gave her one without a series of bucks. Que cheers from crowd. Also, in the demo she also taught the same horse to piaffe with her dad standing behind running the whip up and down his legs. As I said, this horse was 5/6 years old and quirky as hell but I didn't hear anyone in the crowd objecting. They were all smiles and admiration. However if LB had of been a poster on here posting stills of the bucks from the FC, no doubt she'd get the same response as OP in this thread


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## Winklepoker (25 October 2011)

If it is any consolation (sp?) I am UBER jealous of you PS and all your matchy, fabulous riding and perserverance with CS - I read you threads and posts and feel utterly envious


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## Nocturnal (25 October 2011)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			thanks but you wont get an answer-iv asked numerous times for specifics about where people can see the tension and no one can give them!
		
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Yeah, I know, sorry. I sat on my hands for a while to avoid getting my blood pressure up, but I can't figure out why people think they can judge what's going on better than the person who rides the horse day in day out! Nor what people think you have to gain by pushing him before he's ready & risking ruining him. I'm guessing few people on here actually know CS or his character, either. The ones that do seem to be backing you up... funny, that.


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## dressagelove (25 October 2011)

SummerxStarsx said:



			This thread has just gotten ridiculous! I think everyone needs to get on with their own horses instead of sitting about biatching at someone elses. I think until you see a horse in the flesh/ride it yourself you cannot possibly comment.

Also, I was at the nationals and saw the LB demo. It was her 5 or 6 year old that she was on and she was trying to get him to do flying changes across the diagonal. He wasn't having any of it and kept putting in the most ginourmous bucks in objection, but she kept asking a and after a while he finally gave her one without a series of bucks. Que cheers from crowd. Also, in the demo she also taught the same horse to piaffe with her dad standing behind running the whip up and down his legs. As I said, this horse was 5/6 years old and quirky as hell but I didn't hear anyone in the crowd objecting. They were all smiles and admiration. However if LB had of been a poster on here posting stills of the bucks from the FC, no doubt she'd get the same response as OP in this thread
		
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This^^! Forums can be great places, but they also allow the 'masses' to hide in cyber world, behind a computer screen and not actually have to stand up to a face to face debate. There are so many people who know everything on here, because they are pretty much faceless and can hide behind their computer.


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## Zeus (25 October 2011)

I tend to lurk on this forum rather than post but feel I have to comment on this thread. Do you not think that when a horse moves up a level in his work that tension is going to creep in? The horse is finding the work harder and if they can they will resist the rider. To avoid any tension we would not improve the way of going as the horse would stay in their comfort zone all the time and most likely play up as they have got 'bored'

I am not sure what level the OP is competing or the scores they get but I think that consistent scores of late 60's minimum and then I would consider that the horse is ready to move up competition wise.


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## elsiex (25 October 2011)

If that horse is tense then my mare is a coiled spring!


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## Santa_Claus (25 October 2011)

Nocturnal said:



			So this was after the first strop. Looks pretty good to me? Nice and relaxed; can't see the tension, personally... eye doesn't look hard... Can someone point out what you're all talking about?
		
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Sorry but that is a bad photo yes its a moment in time but what looks to be a medium+ trot is broken at the poll and BTV and looks tight through the wither and neck. In a medium trot if free and forwards the horse should be slightly infront of the vertical if not on and poll high, and personally also in the pic I would say the ears were almost flat back not soft and attentive!

BUT and its a big but its a moment in time and a split second before or after could show a very different picture and so I will not judge on photos!

I sit on my hands a lot of the time in general on HHO as I know I have no where near the competitive experience or knowledge of some members (although prossibly more than a fair few as well!). Interestingly those are the posters who also almost always sit on their hands with such threads as these as they know you can't pass judgment from photos alone, and even videos can give a very distorted view.

To me CS is progressing fast i.e. at the same speed most pros would expect their very best horses to. Personally I wouldn't progress a horse of mine that fast even if talented enough as I know I don't have the ability to correctly educate a youngster to that level that quick. I can't though say that their progression is too fast for CS though as I don't know him or PS and her riding ability other than from posts on here.

Tantrums can indeed mean a horse is saying things are too much or they could just be having a juvenile temper tamtrum for the hell of it, again you need to know the horse to know which.

I think there are valid points by all BUT we don't know the horse and rider in the flesh. What will be the ultimate proof as said will be his ongoing career, if its long and successful than that is great and the best outcome, if it is not then it will be very unfortunate and PS will be able to look back at why if it occurs, lets just hope it doesn't as CS is obviously a very talented trainable horse to have learnt all he has at his age.


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## Amaranta (25 October 2011)

Santa_Claus said:



			Sorry but that is a bad photo yes its a moment in time but what looks to be a medium+ trot is broken at the poll and BTV and looks tight through the wither and neck. In a medium trot if free and forwards the horse should be slightly infront of the vertical if not on and poll high, and personally also in the pic I would say the ears were almost flat back not soft and attentive!

BUT and its a big but its a moment in time and a split second before or after could show a very different picture and so I will not judge on photos!

I sit on my hands a lot of the time in general on HHO as I know I have no where near the competitive experience or knowledge of some members (although prossibly more than a fair few as well!). Interestingly those are the posters who also almost always sit on their hands with such threads as these as they know you can't pass judgment from photos alone, and even videos can give a very distorted view.

To me CS is progressing fast i.e. at the same speed most pros would expect their very best horses to. Personally I wouldn't progress a horse of mine that fast even if talented enough as I know I don't have the ability to correctly educate a youngster to that level that quick. I can't though say that their progression is too fast for CS though as I don't know him or PS and her riding ability other than from posts on here.

Tantrums can indeed mean a horse is saying things are too much or they could just be having a juvenile temper tamtrum for the hell of it, again you need to know the horse to know which.

I think there are valid points by all BUT we don't know the horse and rider in the flesh. What will be the ultimate proof as said will be his ongoing career, if its long and successful than that is great and the best outcome, if it is not then it will be very unfortunate and PS will be able to look back at why if it occurs, lets just hope it doesn't as CS is obviously a very talented trainable horse to have learnt all he has at his age.
		
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This is probably the most well balanced post on here 

I have been sitting on my hands, I can see both sides of the debate tbh.

Yes, the horse does look tense at times (he also looks a little hollow in the last canter pic posted) but would reiterate that unless we know the horse we cannot know whether the tension is due to pain/confusion or just a bossy temper tantrum.

The horse is undoubtably talented and although I don't push my youngsters so far so soon, but rather wait until they are in the high 60s before moving up a level, it is up to PS what she does with this horse's training, she knows him better than any of us do and as someone else has already said, the scores will tell.


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## Nocturnal (25 October 2011)

Santa_Claus said:



			Sorry but that is a bad photo yes its a moment in time but what looks to be a medium+ trot is broken at the poll and BTV and looks tight through the wither and neck. In a medium trot if free and forwards the horse should be slightly infront of the vertical if not on and poll high, and personally also in the pic I would say the ears were almost flat back not soft and attentive!
		
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Amazing how different people see different things . To me the horse, whilst slightly btv, does not look tense through his neck or wither, and the ears imho are not flat back but focused on the rider.

Just goes to show that judgements shouldn't be made based solely on pictures posted online, as they can be interpreted in many different ways .


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (25 October 2011)

santa claus-i absolutely 100% disagree im afraid.

The horse is barely BARELY dropping the poll, yes ideally he needs to be more IFV but i dont think a degree or two makes the diff between happy/unhappy and me being the devils child or not.
obviously the fact that he's sitting, pushing off from behind, using all his joints and is clearly not heavy in the hand mean absolutely nothing do they? i dont think i ever said he/we were perfect but im getting a bit sick and tired of every tiny imperfection being pulled up as evidence of an unhappy horse, when in fact we are both still a work in progress, as is every other poster on this forum!

its ironic that both me and my sister have been pulled over the coals for nit picking in the past yet some of the posters on here must have had a microscope out looking at these pics of mine. it cant be one rule for one and one for another so make up your minds which it is you want.

as for the ears-anyone can see they are not flat back, really actually look, they just arent!!!!!!!

TBH i think people ARE now looking for problems, and if you squint at any pic for long enough you can see things you dont like.

CC is fine, but theres nothing constructive about a witch hunt when the horse is about as much on the verge of a breakdown, as a beach donkey! and i can well see that in the future, unless he gets 65%+ EVERY time out, its going to be taken as a sign of said breakdown occurring, and I CBA with this every time i do a report.


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## Countrychic (25 October 2011)

I've been watching this thread and thought I may as well throw my opinion in to the pot!

I can see both sides in this argument, I think that he is clearly a talented horse and ps is clearly a talented rider. The horse looks in perfect condition and is obviously in a lot better shape than about 80% of horses.
I think tension is hard to see unless you are watching a video or the horse in person.
BUT on the flip side, I DO think it's possible for tantrums to decrease in severity without the cause or root being solved, I think a strong, capable rider is able to teach a horse to not display bad behaviour even if the horse is trying to tell them something. I think at some point down the line it will resurface in another way but I do think it's possible. I was at a local show the other day and watched a girl trying to jump her horse which kept stopping. The horse was clearly lame behind, she then asked a man to get on, he had a "discussion" with the horse in the collecting ring then went in and jumped a clear round. I'm not for a second saying cs is lame but just trying to demonstrate a point.

I can see the need for people on forums to not get too hung up on what others choose to do with their horses but at the same time I can see that sometimes a total outsiders comments can help the most. I suppose the important thing is if they don't seem to want the comments everyone shouldn't keep ramming them home. I do think the jealousy comments are unhelpful though. I didn't post because I didn't want people telling me I was jealous. I'm not at all (although I love looking at her pictures)! But I have got an incredibly talented show jumper that was bought cheap as she had been pushed quickly. She went along with it then exploded, this resulted in us having to turn her away and totally re break her and she probably will still never be the horse she could have been. I'm not comparing mine to cs but just saying everyone is different, mine was very hot and spooky and tense so we went back to basics, I know someone else that bought her could well be jumping fox now.
I can't comment on the dressage as I simply do not know enough and am undecided about the strops as on one hand he is a young, fit tb but on the other hand mine was a young, fit wb and she did benefit from being taken down to basics.
So basically a pointless post! but I would hate ps to stop posting pics as it's my dressage fix lol


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## Baydale (25 October 2011)

One very quick question, and absolutely meant to be non-provocative, PS:

why do you post on here?


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## coreteam1 (25 October 2011)

Baydale said:



			One very quick question, and absolutely meant to be non-provocative, PS:

why do you post on here? 

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Strange 'provocative' question to again cause and stir up misfeelings?  

Why does anyone post?  Why do you post?  Why do I post? 

In my case I like to post on what my boy has been doing, how well or not so well he's been doing.  The same as I'm sure 'everyone' else posts?  

You have to admit that there are 'certain' people on this forum that do make a bee-line for 'certain people's post's' and like to make misguided comments that will no doubt offend


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## MillionDollar (25 October 2011)

Oh PS I love how your posts end up like this, they are SO entertaining! 

I just wanted to say that if you all think PS if pushing CS too much, I would love you all to have a debate with the pros! My friend who has my 4yo on loan took her for a lesson with Charlie Hutton the other day and he said he does a few steps of everything when they're 4.....piaffe, passage, half pass........just so it's there for the future (and only if they are capable that is!).

Anyway what PS does with her horse is her business  each to their own I say.


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## Firewell (25 October 2011)

I feel sad because I wouldn't be surprised if PS doesn't post pics on on here anymore.
I for one enjoy looking at the pictures of a beautiful horse, pretty colours and an elegant rider.
I don't see any more than that because IT'S A PICTURE how are any of us to know anymore???? 
I really enjoy PS's posts, I always find her comments relevant and I also enjoy looking at her sisters threads as well.
This is what happened to Mad Hector and the girl with the event horse called supplejack.
They post DECENT reports and posts with pretty pictures and beautiful horses and they get frightened off. Why can't people just be nice??? 
I'm really worried this forum is just going to turn into a virtual bitchy livery yard where everyone is too free with their opinions and all the nice people who post things that are interesting don't come anymore.
I mean for goodness sake, anyone who spends time on this godforsaken forum is crazy enough about horses to not let their horse suffer.
Oh please keep posting PS!! You can PM me your pictures and CS updates if you like because I for one get pleasure  from them .


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## charlie76 (25 October 2011)

But why post pics And video if you Don't want the comments. If You put them up Then people Will comment And you Might not always like the comments.


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## Scarlett (25 October 2011)

santa_Claus - perfectly put, echos the opinion of myself and a few others who are all sitting on our hands.


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## superpony (25 October 2011)

firewell said:



			I feel sad because I wouldn't be surprised if PS doesn't post pics on on here anymore.
I for one enjoy looking at the pictures of a beautiful horse, pretty colours and an elegant rider.
I don't see any more than that because IT'S A PICTURE how are any of us to know anymore???? 
I really enjoy PS's posts, I always find her comments relevant and I also enjoy looking at her sisters threads as well.
This is what happened to Mad Hector and the girl with the event horse called supplejack.
They post DECENT reports and posts with pretty pictures and beautiful horses and they get frightened off. Why can't people just be nice??? 
I'm really worried this forum is just going to turn into a virtual bitchy livery yard where everyone is too free with their opinions and all the nice people who post things that are interesting don't come anymore.
I mean for goodness sake, anyone who spends time on this godforsaken forum is crazy enough about horses to not let their horse suffer.
Oh please keep posting PS!! You can PM me your pictures and CS updates if you like because I for one get pleasure  from them .
		
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Totally agree. I really love seeing your reports PS. You (and your sister too) have also been incredibly helpful and giving with your time when I have asked questions when needing help with my TB's flatwork and trying to work out the complicated rules of BD!


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## dressagecrazy (25 October 2011)

Scarlett said:



			santa_Claus - perfectly put, echos the opinion of myself and a few others who are all sitting on our hands.
		
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I really wish i had stayed sat on my hands too.

 This was never meant to turn in to a witch hunt for either party. But i feel i really fuelled people up to start & for that im angry i commented.

However i do still stand by my view's in training horses & young horses. In future though i wont post them on someones thread though.


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## SpottedCat (25 October 2011)

charlie76 said:



			But why post pics And video if you Don't want the comments. If You put them up Then people Will comment And you Might not always like the comments.
		
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And Gamebird wondered why I don't often bother doing reports


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## charlie76 (25 October 2011)

And That's why I don't any more! If You do you risk hearing What you Don't like or agree with so I decided a long time a go that approval from strangers Are not high on my priority list!


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## bananas_22 (25 October 2011)

Can I just say that I am impressed with the number of people that can type with their elbows on here!


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## redcascade (25 October 2011)

charlie76 said:



			But why post pics And video if you Don't want the comments. If You put them up Then people Will comment And you Might not always like the comments.
		
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I don't think that's fair, when NM CCed on Thistle's thread a while back everyone had a go at NM cos Thistle 'didn't ask for CC'. Same thing but everyone was on Thistle's side! It seems like some posters aren't allowed to be criticised because everyone licks their a*se! But it's alright to jump on everyone else like PS because other posters think they know the horse better than the person who actually owns it!
It seems like neither of these girls can do anything right! If you don't want to start a debate and 'get jumped on' then don't comment, end of. I think you've handled yourself very well PS, please keep posting as I for one love seeing photos of CS 

Thread for reference: http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=449101


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## Santa_Claus (25 October 2011)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			santa claus-i absolutely 100% disagree im afraid.

The horse is barely BARELY dropping the poll, yes ideally he needs to be more IFV but i dont think a degree or two makes the diff between happy/unhappy and me being the devils child or not.
obviously the fact that he's sitting, pushing off from behind, using all his joints and is clearly not heavy in the hand mean absolutely nothing do they? i dont think i ever said he/we were perfect but im getting a bit sick and tired of every tiny imperfection being pulled up as evidence of an unhappy horse, when in fact we are both still a work in progress, as is every other poster on this forum!

its ironic that both me and my sister have been pulled over the coals for nit picking in the past yet some of the posters on here must have had a microscope out looking at these pics of mine. it cant be one rule for one and one for another so make up your minds which it is you want.

as for the ears-anyone can see they are not flat back, really actually look, they just arent!!!!!!!
		
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Hence why my second paragraph very clearly says I won't judge a horse/rider on photos for the very point that they are a split second. If you want to be pedantic I don't have a portactor to hand but he is easily 15 ish degrees + BTV in the photo but that could have been for 0.01 of a second and so I won't say he is always there in the same way I won't say he always works not poll high and that his ears are always there and that the ears in that position for him are a negative because I DON'T KNOW and I won't judge.

You ASKED for the points of tension to be pointed out earlier in this thread. One person said this photo to them showed a supple forward horse and to me it didn't so I said so and most importantly why I thought as such so answering your question directly. Again I am not judging you or CS as a whole just commenting on the one photo which shows a split second 

And I will agree he is showing a good hind leg in the photo and its positively refreshing to see a double bridle being used correctly in that the curb is not in use unecessarily. But and this is generally speaking of course a good hind leg does not always mean a good front in the same way (although far more common example) that a good front does not equal a good hind action!


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## charlie76 (25 October 2011)

I'm not just talking about this thread,  any post That contains photos or videos risk attracting comments that might not be well received
 Its an inherent risk every time I'm afraid.


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## mik (25 October 2011)

Please keep at it, I love seeing any schooling pictures, of course they are not perfect, but neither is ANY test ridden even at the highest level, yes we see tension, yes sometimes he could be ............. but these are seconds in time in a schooling session, and picking holes in a moment caught on film is not really constructive. 
When we school we ask questions and give rewards, new schooling movements are always tenser and this we can see in any horse, manifested in many ways, as these movements are learn't and become easier the horse will perform them with more confidence and relaxation and expression. 
So, personally, keep going and enjoy your schooling and journey, and keep posting.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (25 October 2011)

charlie76-which was the exact point that i, several others, and NMT made on the thistle thread...............so like i said, one rule for one, and one for another it would seem..............

iv already said that genuine CC is fine, but all this has turned in to is countless people saying he's over pushed and tense without acknowleding any of my replies or in fact replying to any of my questions.

santa clause granted has actually given a detailed analysis of what she sees physically in the pics(thanks, albeit i still think the ear remark is ridiculous), but no one else can or will. (and perhaps i HAVE jumped on you with too much force SC, it would have been nice if the btv comments had been tempered with the positive comments about the hind leg initially, as im sure you can see that this feels like one after another bitchy comment to me)

no one has addressed the similar issue laura B has with her 6yo yet.

DC-iv said repeatedly that i dont have an issue with your posts, i think we maybe misunderstood the tone of each others posts, but thats it. its what has come after your comments that i dont think is fair.

baydale-because i like looking at other peoples pics/reading reports, and i know people like mine, so mutual pic posting seems to be order of the day! im not seeking approval or hero worship if thats what you're thinking. Im justifiably proud of the horse but thats about it. I think that promoting ex racers as serious competition horses can only be a good thing too.


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## Thistle (25 October 2011)

Redcascade

I am very upset to see that yet again 'that' post has been dragged up

FFS leave it alone.


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## VGM (25 October 2011)

but its relevant thistle


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## redcascade (25 October 2011)

Sorry Thistle, didn't mean to upset anyone but it was just the most recent example I could think of...


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## ester (25 October 2011)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			charlie76-which was the exact point that i, several others, and NMT made on the thistle thread...............so like i said, one rule for one, and one for another it would seem..............

iv already said that genuine CC is fine, but all this has turned in to is countless people saying he's over pushed and tense without acknowleding any of my replies or in fact replying to any of my questions.

santa clause granted has actually given a detailed analysis of what she sees physically in the pics(thanks, albeit i still think the ear remark is ridiculous), but no one else can or will. (and perhaps i HAVE jumped on you with too much force SC, it would have been nice if the btv comments had been tempered with the positive comments about the hind leg initially, as im sure you can see that this feels like one after another bitchy comment to me)
		
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Have to say I don't see why people agreeing with eachother is such a problem  if one person thinks something it is just as likely another will, just as much as many people agree with them. Maybe they aren't looking at specific indicators, just perhaps thinking he isn't looking as happy as he has in the past but as pointed out it's all just photos which are hard to judge by and perhaps point specifics out on. 
People agreeing and wanting to add their comments just to add weight and support to others (in either direction!) just seems to be what a forum does to me and makes for discussion.


SC was attempting to point out some more specific indicators, It didn't appear to be a bitchy comment to me, just a comment, though I understand that it might have felt different to you... another of those internet issues!

I'm afraid Thistle (it has been brought up on diggerb's thread as well) that I do think RC has a valid point in mentioning that thread. It certainly felt to a few that it was one rule for one group and different rules for everyone else.


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## Baydale (25 October 2011)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			baydale-because i like looking at other peoples pics/reading reports, and i know people like mine, so mutual pic posting seems to be order of the day! im not seeking approval or hero worship if thats what you're thinking. Im justifiably proud of the horse but thats about it. I think that promoting ex racers as serious competition horses can only be a good thing too.
		
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Thank you for responding. I'm always curious what drives people to post on here, and I mean everyone, not just you. I just thought I'd ask you first seeing as your post was top of the page.


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## Thistle (25 October 2011)

Well I hope you lot are happy, I most certainly am not.

As many of you are probably aware Hec is curreltly 'broken' and we have no idea if he will ever be ridden again, let alone compete.

Bringing this thread up is insensitive and tactless in the extreme. 

It's not relavent at all, just another excuse for some people to have a go at what they see as 'the old school'

Having nearly destroyed my daughters confidence once it seems that many are happy to do it again


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## Santa_Claus (25 October 2011)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			santa clause granted has actually given a detailed analysis of what she sees physically in the pics(thanks, albeit i still think the ear remark is ridiculous), but no one else can or will. (and perhaps i HAVE jumped on you with too much force SC, it would have been nice if the btv comments had been tempered with the positive comments about the hind leg initially, as im sure you can see that this feels like one after another bitchy comment to me)
		
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your reply to me hits the nail on the head. you are taking replies personally and very black and white and you really mustn't as that is why threads (not just yours by any extent) get so heated.

I generally don't give any CC unless asked (its safer!  ) and any CC or just C given to me I take into consideration but I don't take to heart, if i did I would have given up many years ago. 

There are only a few people on this forum who know my horse at all and only 1 who knows her reasonably well (as in has ridden her more than once) and I know whatever I put on here is only a snapshot of the reality and that snapshot will always be judged differently by every single person who reads it. 

Also when people write things they will miss obvious things out (without even realising) as yes i could have commented re rein/hind 1/4s etc before but it didn't occur for me to for whatever reason as I was concentrating on his front! and words will accidentally get missed as people type to fast or just have poor use of the english language and one person's interpretation of a sentence/paragraph/post will be a million miles from another's. And that's before you consider the tone a post is written in which is a lottery to guess right 90% of the time!

My best advice is take everything posted with a very large pinch of salt. There are often solid points in most threads intermixed with the not so helpful chaff so consider all and throw away and don't think again of what you don't require. If anything does grate then that is what real life trusted instructors are for to prove them right/wrong as they know you and your horse not bob the trucker from swansea on HHO who proclaims to be Samantha the olympic rider


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## Amaranta (25 October 2011)

Thistle said:



			Well I hope you lot are happy, I most certainly am not.

As many of you are probably aware Hec is curreltly 'broken' and we have no idea if he will ever be ridden again, let alone compete.

Bringing this thread up is insensitive and tactless in the extreme. 

It's not relavent at all, just another excuse for some people to have a go at what they see as 'the old school'

Having nearly destroyed my daughters confidence once it seems that many are happy to do it again
		
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Oh Thistle I am so sorry H is broken, I am equally sorry that your daughter's confidence was destroyed needlessly, she is a super rider and the partnership looked to be full of promise - it is a crying shame.


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## redcascade (25 October 2011)

Well I for one did not know that he is broken and I'm sorry to hear that but I don't think it's fair for people to have to tip-toe around you just because you've had a stroke of bad luck. There's no need to turn this into a thread about you, I don't follow any of your posts and don't know anything about you, the only thing I read was "that thread" so now I'm "insensitive and tactless" because I don't cling onto every word you post? 
No one has mentioned anything about your daughter but that thread, no ones made her read it again so I don't see how it affects her!
Yikes! Back to lurking I go!


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## Thistle (25 October 2011)

redcascade said:



			Well I for one did not know that he is broken and I'm sorry to hear that but I don't think it's fair for people to have to tip-toe around you just because you've had a stroke of bad luck. There's no need to turn this into a thread about you, I don't follow any of your posts and don't know anything about you, the only thing I read was "that thread" so now I'm "insensitive and tactless" because I don't cling onto every word you post? 
No one has mentioned anything about your daughter but that thread, no ones made her read it again so I don't see how it affects her!
Yikes! Back to lurking I go!
		
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I very rarely post here anymore and as of today I won't be posting again.

BTW YOU were the person who brought me into this thread


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## BroadfordQueen (25 October 2011)

Well I don't know 'nufin about 'nufin, but I think he looks lovely  good luck with your future plans for him!


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## Amaranta (25 October 2011)

Thistle said:



			I very rarely post here anymore and as of today I won't be posting again.
		
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I find that very sad but can understand your feelings


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (25 October 2011)

what was it you told my sister to do thistle....oh yes...."man up"........maybe take your own advise?

someone earlier used frodobeutlin's horses as examples and i dont see her wading in squealing not use her name in vain..................as iv already said, either no one ever brings up anything about anyone ever again, or we are all equal and open to any form of critisism if we post anything on the forum.

im very sorry tha H is broken and wish him a speedy recovery but you simply cannot tell one forum user to let this wash over her, and then get up in arms if YOUR thread is bought up.


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## Ali16 (25 October 2011)

Not getting involved, but he looks great and our 6yo is also working on tempi changes etc. Well done PS - he is definately on track IMHO.


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## redcascade (25 October 2011)

Thistle said:



			I very rarely post here anymore and as of today I won't be posting again.

BTW YOU were the person who brought me into this thread
		
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Ouch. Now I'M gonna be jumped on for upsetting you no doubt. Didn't mean for it to upset you but I think you've over reacted to be honest, I only used it as an example, you didn't have to re-read the thread, I put it there for people who may have missed it and not know what I meant, sorry but I don't think I was wrong to post it as it was very relevant(I think so anyway)


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## little_flea (25 October 2011)

Jeez I think everyone needs to get a grip! I have to say that the eventer contingency here can be pretty harsh sometimes... if you don't want CC, maybe post in picture gallery. PS has only responded to the criticism by giving her side of the story. Like everyone else has said, videos and pics are a snapshot of the bigger picture, if you disagree with what someone says, then don't take it onboard - we all have friends, family and trainers that know the full story and are much better positioned to judge.


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## Amaranta (25 October 2011)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			what was it you told my sister to do thistle....oh yes...."man up"........maybe take your own advise?

someone earlier used frodobeutlin's horses as examples and i dont see her wading in squealing not use her name in vain..................as iv already said, either no one ever brings up anything about anyone ever again, or we are all equal and open to any form of critisism if we post anything on the forum.

im very sorry tha H is broken and wish him a speedy recovery but you simply cannot tell one forum user to let this wash over her, and then get up in arms if YOUR thread is bought up.
		
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To be fair PS Thistle has not told you to let this wash over you.


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## PooJay (25 October 2011)

wow  

I hope you people realise how distracting you've been today - i haven't got any work done reading all this!


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## AFlapjack (25 October 2011)

This thread is just ridiculous. Get a grip people!


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## Fools Motto (25 October 2011)

Do you lot realise how 'snooty' you sound?
OP has posted about HER horse. She has kindly added photos so that myself and the rest of the world can view. Some may see weaknesses, others will not, but either way you see it, you learn something from it. Be privileged. Stop all this bickering.


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## glamourpuss (25 October 2011)

Cool Mix I know it wasn't meant to but your post made me chuckle a bit.
You sound like you want to bang some heads together & put a few of us on the naughty step


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## Fools Motto (25 October 2011)

glamourpuss said:



			Cool Mix I know it wasn't meant to but your post made me chuckle a bit.
You sound like you want to bang some heads together & put a few of us on the naughty step 

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Too right!! Bloody big naughty step and a queue of people saying sorry to each other!!!


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## charlie76 (25 October 2011)

I can't understand the problem with people posting what they see in your pictures. It might not be what you feel and what you agree with but thats what is taken from those pictures from those people. 
If you don't agree then thats fine, take the comments and the advice from the people you do agree with and ignore the advice/comments from the people you don't.
By taking all comments personally and reacting to them in a personal way it has got waaaaayyy out of perspective.
To dig up another post from some one who had not even commented on the post before the link was added was unacceptable and has left them upset about it and now they have become the target of a row.
I will never comment on anyone vids or pics again- I can't be bothered with the agro!


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## Amaranta (25 October 2011)

Amaranta said:



			To be fair PS Thistle has not told you to let this wash over you.
		
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In point of fact, Thistle does not appear to have commented on this thread, other than the posts explaining her hurt - perhaps an apology is in order?


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## Amaranta (25 October 2011)

charlie76 said:



			I can't understand the problem with people posting what they see in your pictures. It might not be what you feel and what you agree with but thats what is taken from those pictures from those people. 
If you don't agree then thats fine, take the comments and the advice from the people you do agree with and ignore the advice/comments from the people you don't.
By taking all comments personally and reacting to them in a personal way it has got waaaaayyy out of perspective.
To dig up another post from some one who had not even commented on the post before the link was added was unacceptable and has left them upset about it and now they have become the target of a row.
I will never comment on anyone vids or pics again- I can't be bothered with the agro!
		
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Need a like button


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## redcascade (25 October 2011)

Like I've already said, I didn't mean to upset anyone and I'm sorry about that, BUT! I was only using that thread to prove my point, nothing personal against Thistle, just using the thread as an example, would've done the same if it was any other poster. Jeez, this place is turning into NL....!


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## Amaranta (25 October 2011)

redcascade said:



			Like I've already said, I didn't mean to upset anyone and I'm sorry about that, BUT! I was only using that thread to prove my point, nothing personal against Thistle, just using the thread as an example, would've done the same if it was any other poster. Jeez, this place is turning into NL....!
		
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Sorry Redcascade I meant an apology from PS, I think you have already apologised


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## dunkley (25 October 2011)

redcascade said:



			Like I've already said, I didn't mean to upset anyone and I'm sorry about that, BUT! I was only using that thread to prove my point, nothing personal against Thistle, just using the thread as an example, would've done the same if it was any other poster. Jeez, this place is turning into NL....!
		
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At least in NL posters are a little more 'honest'. It strikes me NL posters are generally more open about their likes and dislikes, and personality preferences, rather than trying to be 'clever' with their insults and digs, and hiding them under the cloak of CC


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## Amymay (25 October 2011)

dunkley said:



			At least in NL posters are a little more 'honest'. It strikes me NL posters are generally more open about their likes and dislikes, and personality preferences, rather than trying to be 'clever' with their insults and digs, and hiding them under the cloak of CC 

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I think posters in this thread have been brutally 'honest' in their likes and dislikes


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## redcascade (25 October 2011)

dunkley said:



			At least in NL posters are a little more 'honest'. It strikes me NL posters are generally more open about their likes and dislikes, and personality preferences, rather than trying to be 'clever' with their insults and digs, and hiding them under the cloak of CC 

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Must have improved since I was last there! I might venture back there if this place goes even more down the plug hole


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## dunkley (25 October 2011)

amymay said:



			I think posters in this thread have been brutally 'honest' in their likes and dislikes

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Mmmmmmm............getting there, getting there


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## Baggybreeches (25 October 2011)

Hiya, haven't read any replies (internet so slow I have only seen about 5 of the pics) but he does look like he has 'one on him' just looking very tense, the mouth open and teeth showing is what is making me think this. Don't require an individual answer as I will be 102 before I have time to reply!


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## charlie76 (25 October 2011)

Baggybreeches- uh oh- my advice would have been to have read the 3 million over replies before choosing to reply with your comment. 
*duck and run for cover!!!**


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## WeeBrown (25 October 2011)

What a thread; took bloody ages to read through!  So glad I didn't comment earlier (page 1 I think back then) asking where you stored all yours and your sister's matchy matchy, as would have been totally irrelevent 
I couldn't care less whether he looks unhappy or happy (I think he looks a bit of both but I don't know any horse looking happy whilst having a strop), I'm still agog that he's only 6...could you come Yorkshire way and teach me?

I'm going to post my dressage to music video next Sunday/Monday - just back in work horse (possibly fat cob if JBIWH is still not up to it), doing walk and trot to "Pocketful of sunshine" - and I will be most offended if I don't get 18 pages of people telling me what's what.


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## Sarah1 (25 October 2011)

Well, I've missed it all haven't I?!  Have only just read this thread & most of the replies (got to page 16 & couldn't face reading the rest).
FWIW I have just a couple of things to add tho I admit to knowing about as much about competetive riding as I know about heart surgery;
1. Why doesn't every stop worrying about someone elses horse and get on with riding/caring for their own?  Posting a comment is all well and good, it's an open forum after all, but I think it's gone waaaaaaaay too far.  PS is hardly neglecting or bullying the horse and whether he is or isn't trying to tell her something is wrong what does that have to do with anyone but PS?!  She's the one who will deal with it IF everything goes t*ts up!
2. In general I think PS's pictures are very nice and CS is clearly a stunning and very talented horse.  I am very jealous but mainly of her boots!  My legs would never look that good in a pair of those! 
3. I admit that I haven't seen many of DC's and others posts but I really respect the opinion of Tempi when it comes to dressage - have you seen the pictures of her horses?!  Stunning.  So maybe she has a point?  BUT again it's just her opinion and PS does not have to listen to it if she doesn't want to.  No need to have a row about it.
4. CS is doing too much too soon?  Possibly, possibly not.  We have a very talented XC machine - he was BRC champion at 6 years old - did we rush him?  Absoultely not, the horse jumps in & out of fields for fun and if he doesn't get the work he's very, very naughty.  I realise I'm talking about XC and not dressage in this instance.
5. My horse can be naughty - not just for me but for my instructor (who produced 4* event horses through the lower levels so knows a thing or 2!) - I can say with absolute certainty that he's just being a toad, everything is checked regularly and I do not put him under too much pressure as I don't have the know how or the balls to be honest!

Come on people, we're all in the same boat, just to a lesser or greater extent!  We're all riding huge animals with brains the size of a lemon at best!  Let's face it we must all be bonkers


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## Loch_ness_monster (25 October 2011)

I think what is going on here is very sad... OP has offered these pictures to the forum and it is up to other members how you view them, I know have taken them as inspiration as to what an ex racer is capable of. All the other ex race horse transformation posts have been praised in a very positive light (even for the smallest of accomplishments), people see these kinds of posts as an example of what COULD of been a horse on it's way to slaughter or a broken down youngster on the track with no quality of life what so ever. Please everyone look at the big picture, this is NOT a fancy warmblood with impeccable breeding lines and cost £££££'s! 
IT IS AN EX RACE HORSE! 
I think what PS has done here is really amazing and she should be so proud, not have to defend herself from other posters with no lifes. So what if he's tense, so what if it's hard for him! He is learning! Do you think every high level dressage horse has went through their hole career without ANY stress ? Whenever another horse on here has had a tantrum it has often been described as 'character' or 'spirit'.
I think the reality here is people are being negative because they have no where near the talent OP has to produce a horse to this level in such a short space of time.

Hands going back under bum for the remainder of this thread


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## Countrychic (25 October 2011)

Fwiw I think that some of the knowledgeable dressagey people have posted because they see them both as very talented and I think the aim of their posts was just to give their personal views on what might be causing the meltdowns. I think if she was average and going to be doing low level maybe people wouldn't have bothered to examine but would have just given the usual "pretty pony" response.
IMO the horse is much luckier than most ex racers and is probably being pushed as hard as many pros horses.
Would I be doing it, no, but that's probably why my 7yr old is doing 1.05 not fox. I'm OCD about them not being pushed and scared but I know with different owners mine could be doing more now.
I think the important thing to remember is everyone wants to do the best for their horse and it's hard when you're told by strangers that you're not.


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## charlie76 (25 October 2011)

Another thought on a seperate note Re young horse classes. ..how Many can you name that have been successful in young horse classes that Have gone on in life to do well. Not Just dressage,  all dicplines? Its not many.


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## Baydale (25 October 2011)

coreteam1 said:



			Strange 'provocative' question to again cause and stir up misfeelings?  

Why does anyone post?  Why do you post?  Why do I post? 

In my case I like to post on what my boy has been doing, how well or not so well he's been doing.  The same as I'm sure 'everyone' else posts?  

You have to admit that there are 'certain' people on this forum that do make a bee-line for 'certain people's post's' and like to make misguided comments that will no doubt offend
		
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Errr, no, if I said it was non-provocative you'll have to take me at my word.  As I said in my response to PS, I am very curious why people post, it's as simple as that. I used to post because I enjoyed the camararderie and support I got, also the mutual mickey-taking and ribbing which stopped me taking myself too seriously. Everyone has many and varied reasons for posting, hence why I asked, so I don't think you can assume that everyone else posts with the same intent that you do, coreteam1.

As this has got rather emotive and turned into a spat I shall step away now.


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## PaddyMonty (25 October 2011)

Well I've read the whole thread, sat on my hands etc etc and decided I will post my two pence worth.
If I was to judge based on the photo evidence then I may have come down on the pushing to fast side (not certain). However, as I have seen PS and CS competing several times I perhaps have the benefit most dont of having watched the horse warm up in entirety. Guess I should, explain my OH competes at similiar level and and same venues so our paths cross.  Not actually spoken to PS as yet (will do on sunday at VV, promise).
So having no axe to grind either way I do think from watching him that CS is just one of those horses that has a little moment from time to time.  No different to a lot of horse I see working at that level including my OH's little welshie who happens to be 20yo. What he's doing at the time doesn't seem to have any bearing on when and how.
I also think the moments have reduced from when I first saw him competing at elem level.  If he was reacting to being pushed too fast I would expect the moments to increase, not decrease.
Problem is its very difficult to judge anything much from a photo, even vids are difficult compared to being there in the flesh.  This is the main reason I rarely respond to request for CC.
OK, back to my little cave.


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## dafthoss (25 October 2011)

Whoo I ride and go to my lecture to come back to WW3 on here. Jeeze people give PS a break she posted some pictures of her riding her horse who she is quite rightly very proud of, she has never claimed he is perfect as far as I can remember but then I dont think the perfect horse exists. I for one like PS's posts they give me somthing to aim for one day and shows off exracers in a brilliant way. Both PS and her sister have always been willing to take the time to give training advice when I have asked and it really helped me and my boy, now neither of them needed to awnser any questions they could have left it but they have both given suggestions and encouragment to many people who are competing at a lower lever and for that I am grateful and I'm sure many others are to. 

TBF its posts like these that put me off posting any pics on here as we have far more to work on than PS, far more to be pulled apart on and much more tension than CS. I'm rather tempted to do a bit of fb stalking (not that I know who PS is on fb so it would be a bit difficult) so I can look at the pictures without an argument happening.


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## mik (25 October 2011)

WeeBrown said:



			What a thread; took bloody ages to read through!  So glad I didn't comment earlier (page 1 I think back then) asking where you stored all yours and your sister's matchy matchy, as would have been totally irrelevent 
I couldn't care less whether he looks unhappy or happy (I think he looks a bit of both but I don't know any horse looking happy whilst having a strop), I'm still agog that he's only 6...could you come Yorkshire way and teach me?

I'm going to post my dressage to music video next Sunday/Monday - just back in work horse (possibly fat cob if JBIWH is still not up to it), doing walk and trot to "Pocketful of sunshine" - and I will be most offended if I don't get 18 pages of people telling me what's what.
		
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I promise to be as critical as possible in both the negative and positive, I shall invent another persona just for this and I will write as many posts as I can. (or maybe I shall just go out and hack my pony and then dream as I drink a glass of wine at the cafe up the road, over lunch....dinner ... :)


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## MillionDollar (25 October 2011)

charlie76 said:



			Another thought on a seperate note Re young horse classes. ..how Many can you name that have been successful in young horse classes that Have gone on in life to do well. Not Just dressage,  all dicplines? Its not many.
		
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Don't agree with this!...............

Valegro
Uthopia
Totilas

And a whole LOAD of other dressage horses definitely did Young Horse Classes and did well


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## Rouletterose (25 October 2011)

PS
Pic 1. Good
Pic 2. OK
Pic 3. Ok but escaping through o/s shoulder a little.
Pic 4. Not 'reaching' enough your RH crossed over is causing this, a little behind the vertical.
Pic 5. Is where tension shows in neck/eye/expression.
Pic 6. Needs to 'reach' more in front (neck).
Pic 7. Normal hissy fit, one of mine does this.
Pic 8. He's had enough...look at his eye.
Pic 9. You are trying to pull him round to the right? your left legs not on.
pic 10.Again you are pulling with RR your left legs doing nothing.
Pic 11.He's happier here because you've lightened your seat and let him go forward.
Pic 12.Much much better.
Pic 13.Better, but you have too much inside rein.
Pic 14.Again you are crossing your LH over blocking his leading left shoulder and not allowing him to 'reach'.
Pic 15.The changes will come.
Pic 16. He's had enough, what an evil eye! and the rest are worse!.

The changes in the video don't look bad, but the second one you yanked him to get the change.

You didn't ask for the above but you did ask for where other posters thought he was tense, I think it starts in the collected attempts, and in a lot of horses that is where it will start, I think especially with a TB. You have said on many occasions that he doesn't hack and so you don't for your own safety, fair enough.  But do you ever take him for a gallop? load him up and go somewhere other than another arena? I think that is essential with a TB.

As for pushing him, I think you are  very ambitious to prove that you can 'get there' with an ex racehorse, that's fine, but in my opinion he's getting over boiled with all the school work and that in itself is a form of pushing.

I hope you continue to do well with him, but don't do it like your life depended on it.

For the record this is a genuine piece of advice, I don't teach much these days (I still get asked) and I've competed at a much higher level than you, so no jealousy involved,but just slow down a bit, that's my advice, you can onviously 'take it or leave it'.

I'm also not on any bandwagon you should continue to post and take on board what everyone has to say, why else would you post?


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## Charem (25 October 2011)

Got bored of reading after page 7 so forgive me if this has already been posted:

A few weeks ago did we not all have a discussion about a 6 yr old eventer who was competing at Intermediate? I'm sure the majority of the comments were if the horse was capable why hold it back...providing it had an experienced rider.

I have been a CS stalker for sometime on HHO, what PS has done with him is incredible. From my experience sharp horses need something to keep their mind occupied, CS is obviously an intelligent chap and I imagine he would be thoroughly bored if PS just praticed her 20m circles for an hour. 

Anyway as usual CS is beautiful and I hope you continue to post photos of his progress.


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## MerrySherryRider (25 October 2011)

*Rouletterose* Good post.


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## Amaranta (25 October 2011)

horserider said:



*Rouletterose* Good post. 

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ditto


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## Tr0uble (25 October 2011)

Wow! Im almost lost for words, having just read all that!

I think anyone who posts pics on a forum HAS to be prepared for CC, and I have seen PS take on board a LOT of very good CC...some harsher than others, and I have seen her post updates on whT has worked and whT has not....

What I find sad is that clearly there ARE some people that just do not like PS, which is fine. There are loads of people in life that I don't like (I'm quite an intolerant person) but there is a BIG difference in giving genuine CC, harsh or soft, and using the excuse of CC as a chance to bawl out someone you don't like. It's called bullying.

I'm not saying that every CC post on here is bullyish, some of the CC is very balanced and thought out...so,e I can see, some I'm not refined enough to see. But sorry, some of you are just being snots about this and I find it uncomfortable to read.

If you don't like PS, who cares! I'm sure she doesn't, but it's never nice to be openly awful to someone...and to those of you who may jump in with 'you're wrong, I'm not like that blah fricking blah...' sodding well be honest with yourself and have the balls to admit it!

Ugh.


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## charlie76 (25 October 2011)

Re. The young horse classes.  I don't think Utopia or totilas ever won them. I am happy to be corrected if I am wrong. Might be looking in the wrong place!


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## charlie76 (25 October 2011)

To add, you have all said that RR post is good but what she is saying about the half pass is what I said - crossing the inside hand and lacking in suppleness and I got told I Was being nasty!


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## charlie76 (25 October 2011)

I Have no axe to grind with PS. Just stating What I observed from the pics as if I Was teaching


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## brighteyes (25 October 2011)

I looked at the pictures and read all the posts - it wasn't til I got to *Rouletterose*'s list I saw a poster agree with my thoughts on the photographs alone (without knowing, or caring about, any background).  

I for one don't go for the matchy crap, too distracting and IMO detracts from the picture. His eye hardly looks soft at all and in the picture a page ot two back he looks at least behind the vertical, and barely into a contact.  

Like the hat


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## mik (25 October 2011)

Amaranta said:



			ditto 

Click to expand...

double ditto


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## mik (25 October 2011)

horserider said:



*Rouletterose* Good post. 

Click to expand...

double ditto


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## seabsicuit2 (25 October 2011)

Can't quite believe some of the complete rubbish that I'm reading on this post!! Seriously- I think you all need to go and watch the likes of many a so called top trainer in this country & then you would think again!! What about people like Roland tong or Richard Barrett who's horses are dripping and foaming& so tight& tense you can hardly bear to watch?! 
I take my hat off to PS- what she has achieved is amazing, & the horse looks incredible, surely every horse will have the odd playful moment!


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## charlie76 (25 October 2011)

I too totally agree with rouletterose. Just better put than me! 
Sorry for endless posts. My Phone is a nightmare!


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## charlie76 (25 October 2011)

Um, I have trained with Roland. He worked on getting my tense tight horse soft and relaxed. Never tense and dripping in sweat! Also seen him working horses at home with none of the tension or foaming!  Unfair to use people That cannot defend themselves


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## Wilbur_Force (25 October 2011)

I am going to step up to the plate.  Posting on a public forum with pictures, vids, etc always leaves you wide open to opinion and criticism whether good or not.  The thing that is very disappointing however, on some of these threads (not just this one by the way), is the MANNER in which these comments come across.  The written word can come across in a completely different way than the face-to-face spoken word.  For some reason, PS and CS make everyone get terribly excited!!

The main thing for me is that PS knows CS inside out, back to front, left to right.  Only she is the best person to know if he is tense or trying to tell her when things are getting too much.  She has done a tremendous job in bringing him on and her training methods should be applauded for what she has achieved so far.  PS has a trainer just like the rest of us do, so I am sure that he would have told her whats what if she was travelling down the wrong path.

Only time will tell if she is going at it a little quickly, but if she knows her horse like we all know our own, then surely she is the best one to decide what is too much too soon? I have always learnt by my own mistakes.  She has been very gracious in accepting everyone's opinion, not sure if I could hold myself with such calm and poise I can tell you!!  I would be mortified with the way in which some posters on here just get shot down.

Everyone is entitled to post on a public forum as I have said and this is obviously my opinion, but I wish that we would all think a little about how we would feel if the boot was on the other foot.  Such a shame that someone's hard work and dedication to her horse and the sport of dressage is so easily rubbished.  

No replies are necessary, just my opinion!!


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (25 October 2011)

Juno-thank you, and it will be lovely to see you sun  am a little scared of how busy its going to be so you may have to peel me off the floor before we can chat!!!!!

RR-thank you for the more detailed crit. I accept completely that my position is not perfect, but then how many peoples is, and if all this post had been was telling me left hand up/right leg back etc etc that would be fine, i can take as much flack as anyone about ME.what i rather object to is being told the horse is unhappy, when i know for damn sure he's trying it on. he's playing the same old trick he learnt worked as a 2yo and the same trick that worked to get him out of racing/ going in the stalls as a 3yo....the old bronc to a standstill and SPIN manouvre is awful hard to sit in a race saddle and from what iv been told he learnt it was a useful bargaining tool-ill go, but only 90% and if you push me, ill ditch you........well he hasnt yet managed to get rid of me, hence he's slowly but surely stopping trying, and as long as my velcro holds out, in another 12months id like to think we'll have seen the back of these *moments*.

iv tried to explain the above over and over but no one can bear to hold their hands up and say, well ok maybe you DO know him best after all.

i WOULD like to say that i didnt "yank" him to get the change, he got a bit stuck, jumped me up out the saddle and thus didnt go forward but there is absolutely no "yanking" going on.

also, its easy to say that he MUST go off and do other things but how the can you say that without knowing him! he is loop the loop no self control dangerous to hack when he gets wound up so taking him for a gallop is just an insane idea.....quit apart from the fact that he hates being asked to gallop and starts spinning round and hurling himself the other way to try and avoid it, so i dont think thats going to do him any good.
he doesnt enjoy jumping, but he likes polework so generally does that once a week and canters in the field ground permitting.
he's happy with that little lot and can you please trust me when i say that romantic as the notion of taking him for a nice blast is, the result would be a trip to A&E and these episodes would return with a vengance.and you clearly know about the hacking history so why even go there????????????????

why i feel i have to now justify everything i do, i dont know.


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## Tempi (25 October 2011)

Roulette - Very good post and i totally agree with your comments.

I'd like to add that in no way was what i said meant to be a witch hunt of any form I simply stated what I saw and my own opinion.  PS can take it or leave it, I dont really care and im sure she dosent either.

For the people who are under the impression that im jealous, very far from it, I have 3 stunning horses of my own and also a horse that is with me on behalf of an owner. 

Saratoga I believe has a very nice dressage horse which she does very well on at a high level and i'd value her opinion very highly, I believe not many people on the forum know that as shes not constantly posting about her horses on here.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (25 October 2011)

"as shes not constantly posting about her horses on here. "

see, now that sounds like a nasty dig................i do post a lot, because a lot of people, publically AND by PM, ask for CS updates. i LOVE looking at other peoples horses in their reports, and loads of people often state that they do too, so not sure thats theres a problem and you dont HAVE to read my posts/look at my pics.

I know full well about saratogas horse, and i also know he has outbursts too, which are accepted as part of *him* as he has a past. CS also has a past but apparently his outbursts are not just part of him, they mean something more, this is what i dont get and what no one can answer, its that old one rule for one thing again....................


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## charlie76 (25 October 2011)

Saratoga does indeed have a lovely dressage horse That she has done really well with as he really is the definition of tricky!


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## SpottedCat (25 October 2011)

PS I didn't read that as a dig at all, more an explanation. If you take every tiny thing like that so personally you'll be exhausted!


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## stencilface (25 October 2011)

Sorry to join in PS - this is not intended as a dig, but sometimes I think it is a case of protesting too much about things that draw more attention to them. 

I would keep posting, and just take people's comments you don't feel need justifying with a shovel of salt and move on. Sometimes I feel you react to things that would barely get a shoulder shrug from me.  I guess what I'm saying is you obviously work hard, learn to let the things you feel are entirely irrelevant roll off you


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## Rouletterose (25 October 2011)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			Juno-thank you, and it will be lovely to see you sun  am a little scared of how busy its going to be so you may have to peel me off the floor before we can chat!!!!!

RR-thank you for the more detailed crit. I accept completely that my position is not perfect, but then how many peoples is, and if all this post had been was telling me left hand up/right leg back etc etc that would be fine, i can take as much flack as anyone about ME.what i rather object to is being told the horse is unhappy, when i know for damn sure he's trying it on. he's playing the same old trick he learnt worked as a 2yo and the same trick that worked to get him out of racing/ going in the stalls as a 3yo....the old bronc to a standstill and SPIN manouvre is awful hard to sit in a race saddle and from what iv been told he learnt it was a useful bargaining tool-ill go, but only 90% and if you push me, ill ditch you........well he hasnt yet managed to get rid of me, hence he's slowly but surely stopping trying, and as long as my velcro holds out, in another 12months id like to think we'll have seen the back of these *moments*.

iv tried to explain the above over and over but no one can bear to hold their hands up and say, well ok maybe you DO know him best after all.

i WOULD like to say that i didnt "yank" him to get the change, he got a bit stuck, jumped me up out the saddle and thus didnt go forward but there is absolutely no "yanking" going on.

also, its easy to say that he MUST go off and do other things but how the can you say that without knowing him! he is loop the loop no self control dangerous to hack when he gets wound up so taking him for a gallop is just an insane idea.....quit apart from the fact that he hates being asked to gallop and starts spinning round and hurling himself the other way to try and avoid it, so i dont think thats going to do him any good.
he doesnt enjoy jumping, but he likes polework so generally does that once a week and canters in the field ground permitting.
he's happy with that little lot and can you please trust me when i say that romantic as the notion of taking him for a nice blast is, the result would be a trip to A&E and these episodes would return with a vengance.and you clearly know about the hacking history so why even go there????????????????

why i feel i have to now justify everything i do, i dont know.
		
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You don't have to justify everything you do....you say he has a canter in the fields that's fine, if you can't gallop him, that's fine too, by the way, I meant a controlled steady gallop not a 'blast'. It just has to be something that's not on a school.

You should try and think of posting your reports on here as a conversation, people will post what THEY see, you won't always agree with it, I still can see he gets very tense, you say that's because he's 'trying it on' but he's trying it on BECAUSE he gets tense, if he was totally relaxed he wouldn't bother.

The comments on the pics were not 'hand up hand down' as you put it, but just to try and show you where the tension crept in and trying to help you on issues with the contact and allowing him to release his neck/tension within the movement you are doing.

You do know your horse better than anyone else does, that's not an issue either, this whole thing started because a few posters asked if you were possibly pushing your horse too much too soon, if nothing else it's made you think about it, and remember that a good rider never has a blocked mind.


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## Madam_max (25 October 2011)

PS you seem to take everything a bit to heart too much.  If you're going to post pics on a public forum then you have to expect opinions.  I have hardly seen anything in this post which is 'having a dig'


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (25 October 2011)

charlie76-as far as i know, that partic horse was pushed too hard as a youngster, totally fried and hence has ended up tricky. saratoga does a super job with him i know, but how is ok that her horse still has little outbursts, and yet if mine does, it cannot also be beause of his past, its because i need to back off.......................if S's horse is also still displaying tension, shouldnt she too back off?

RR-do you not understand the concept that lazy horses that get away with a trick a few times, learn to keep trying the same thing to get the same result (no rider, thus no work). if you have never come across a spoilt horse that *tries it on* for the sake of getting out of work, you are lucky...............i get paid to ride them for other people and there are plenty of them, as my bank balance will testify!  CS learnt this as a 2yo, he carried it on as a 3yo, he did it a lot with me as a 4yo, and each year since its got better.................is there no chance in your mind at all that this is not a tension/pushing issue? does the evidence not support the horse just trying it on out of habit.................several people who HAVE seen the horse work for prolonged periods(one a very well respected poster and trainer on here) have said this, but still you insist it 100% is a tension issue?
that to me is not a reasoned discussion.


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## JoJo_ (25 October 2011)

I havent read the whole thread as it is far too long. IMO a lot of horses do things to get out of having to work properly, whether it be bucking and plunging or spooking and spinning. I have got to know when my horse is spooking genuinely or when he is just looking for things to spook at to get out of working.

PS I think it is amazing how far you have got to with CS when he is only a 6yr old! You must be doing a hell of a lot right to get an ex racer to that level so quick.


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## Amaranta (25 October 2011)

Madam_max said:



			PS you seem to take everything a bit to heart too much.  If you're going to post pics on a public forum then you have to expect opinions.  I have hardly seen anything in this post which is 'having a dig'
		
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I tend to agree, you and CS are both talented, but even the talented need a little help sometimes, no one seems to be 'having a dig' but instead have offered truly constructive criticism.  You come across as being very dismissive of anyone who does criticise you, although I do agree with you the hat thing is tedious, especially as you are wearing one in the current lot of pictures.

Focus is good and you have that in spades, sometimes though we dressage divas can become a little too focused, so much so that we stop listening to the horse, believe me I know as I have been there myself with a very hot tempered madam of a horse, the lessons she taught me have benefited every horse I have trained since her - she taught me loads.


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## Rouletterose (25 October 2011)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			charlie76-as far as i know, that partic horse was pushed too hard as a youngster, totally fried and hence has ended up tricky. saratoga does a super job with him i know, but how is ok that her horse still has little outbursts, and yet if mine does, it cannot also be beause of his past, its because i need to back off.......................if S's horse is also still displaying tension, shouldnt she too back off?

RR-do you not understand the concept that lazy horses that get away with a trick a few times, learn to keep trying the same thing to get the same result (no rider, thus no work). if you have never come across a spoilt horse that *tries it on* for the sake of getting out of work, you are lucky...............i get paid to ride them for other people and there are plenty of them, as my bank balance will testify!  CS learnt this as a 2yo, he carried it on as a 3yo, he did it a lot with me as a 4yo, and each year since its got better.................is there no chance in your mind at all that this is not a tension/pushing issue? does the evidence not support the horse just trying it on out of habit.................several people who HAVE seen the horse work for prolonged periods(one a very well respected poster and trainer on here) have said this, but still you insist it 100% is a tension issue?
that to me is not a reasoned discussion.
		
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Of course I have come accross many horses that were ungenerous and would not give you an inch more than they had to and were sour and generally miserable unless getting their own way. But two years! is rather a long time to cure that! I'm not surprised you have a large bank balance if it takes you that long to set a horse on the right road.

If you are convinced that your horse is not tense/miserable and that you do not push him too much and that you have never pushed him too much, and it is just your horse still in a very bad habit then there is nothing more to be said and I wish you luck with him.


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## Piaffe63 (25 October 2011)

What a georgeous horse! He looks absolutely amazing- love the shoulder in pic- so beautiful!


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## luckyhorseshoe (25 October 2011)

firewell said:



			I feel sad because I wouldn't be surprised if PS doesn't post pics on on here anymore.
I for one enjoy looking at the pictures of a beautiful horse, pretty colours and an elegant rider.
I don't see any more than that because IT'S A PICTURE how are any of us to know anymore???? 
I really enjoy PS's posts, I always find her comments relevant and I also enjoy looking at her sisters threads as well.
This is what happened to Mad Hector and the girl with the event horse called supplejack.
They post DECENT reports and posts with pretty pictures and beautiful horses and they get frightened off. Why can't people just be nice??? 
I'm really worried this forum is just going to turn into a virtual bitchy livery yard where everyone is too free with their opinions and all the nice people who post things that are interesting don't come anymore.
I mean for goodness sake, anyone who spends time on this godforsaken forum is crazy enough about horses to not let their horse suffer.
Oh please keep posting PS!! You can PM me your pictures and CS updates if you like because I for one get pleasure  from them .
		
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Well said and completely agree!


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## Saratoga (25 October 2011)

Thank you Tempi and charlie76, I don't post on here a lot about myself or my boys, but am more of a lurker...

PS - yes my boy was pushed FAR too hard as a youngster by previous owners, and it nearly cost him his life. I bought him for meat money, turned him away for a year and restarted him from scratch. It's been a long hard road with him, especially to get him to trust anybody again, and not panic at the possibility of making a mistake. And it's taken a long while, but he's one of the most giving genuine horses I have ever owned.

He's spooky, and sharp (natural personality and breeding) and over enthusiastic. But he's never negative, backward, unhappy in his work and he doesnt ever have to say no to me.

He doesn't have 'episodes' as you call it anymore, and if we did I would be concerned about his work load and what I am asking of him. The ONLY time recently he got upset was when I trialled a different magnesium based supplement with him that was highly recommended and it didn't agree with him. 

For those that don't know he's 13 now, training PSG and has a smile on his face every day. I bought him as an 8 year old, heavily trained but never competed.

So based on all of that maybe you can see why I have said what I have?


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## MillionDollar (25 October 2011)

charlie76 said:



			Re. The young horse classes.  I don't think Utopia or totilas ever won them. I am happy to be corrected if I am wrong. Might be looking in the wrong place!
		
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Both won qualifying classes, and got placed at National, and Uthopia International, level.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (25 October 2011)

for goodness sakes RR, do you think people would keep parting with hard earnt money if their horse wasnt progressing after 2 years! no, some people like how i work the horse and stick with me for *normal* lessons long after the horse stops whatever offensive thing they were doing, some use me as a crash test dummy then go on their merry way again,some just want me to help back or ride away a tricky youngster, but i have a steady stream of people requesting help with the spoilt, delinquent or downright rude members of the equine world.....albeit NOT ALL the people i teach have norty ponies, i have plenty of lovely straightforward ones too .......stop twisting everything i say.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (25 October 2011)

thank you for clarifying saratoga...............hopefully by the time CS is 13 he also will be well past this.

im quite sure it wasnt an easy ride with P in the first few years, so whilst i see why you said what you said, perhaps you of all people would recognise the need to push through some things and accept that explosions will happen and it wont all be pic perfect if the horse is not a clean slate.


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## Saratoga (25 October 2011)

I suppose that's my point. When he was in that place I wasn't asking him for HP, changes, half steps or lateral work. I was just trying to get him to accept a rider again. And at no point did I 'push through it', it was very much taken at his pace. He needed the time to realise he could get things wrong and not be punished for it.


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## charlie76 (25 October 2011)

From what I understand about Saratogas horse, he has Only started the more advanced work in the past eighteen months? Up until Then I believe he was competing at elementary.   I don't know her personally but that's the impression I have had from other posts.


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## Rouletterose (25 October 2011)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			for goodness sakes RR, do you think people would keep parting with hard earnt money if their horse wasnt progressing after 2 years! no, some people like how i work the horse and stick with me for *normal* lessons long after the horse stops whatever offensive thing they were doing, some use me as a crash test dummy then go on their merry way again,some just want me to help back or ride away a tricky youngster, but i have a steady stream of people requesting help with the spoilt, delinquent or downright rude members of the equine world.....albeit NOT ALL the people i teach have norty ponies, i have plenty of lovely straightforward ones too .......stop twisting everything i say.
		
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You miss the point...I'm talking about your OWN horse taking two years, you said he was doing it with you when age 4 now age 6 and still doing it but less, so you sort out naughty horses for a living? and your own horse is still very naughty and it's not tension? and it's nothing to do with you? and you've never pushed him?

I also said you are obviously convinced with your many many years of experience (what are you 25?) that you horse is just plain naughty, I was just agreeing with you for a quiet life, I've decided your beyond help.


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## Baggybreeches (25 October 2011)

Rouletterose said:



			Of course I have come accross many horses that were ungenerous and would not give you an inch more than they had to and were sour and generally miserable unless getting their own way. But two years! is rather a long time to cure that! I'm not surprised you have a large bank balance if it takes you that long to set a horse on the right road.
		
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For the record as someone whose ambition is nothing more than a decent days hunting I can actually say that I plugged away for 2 years with one of mine, and he could still have off days, fortunately his off days were manifested in standing still and going mule like, the off days got less and the good days got better, in the end I got him to give the 100% he had and the stubborn old bugger dropped dead 2 minutes later!

If you think you are doing the right thing PS then stick with it, I just think that if I am seeing him as tense (although I did say earlier he 'had one on him) then surely that is what a judge would see? I know exactly what you are going through, but TBH it's not really right for me and my horse to 'have it out' I tend to change the subject, but fair play to you I just think that it would be a shame to miss out on improvement by being blinkered.


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## CalllyH (25 October 2011)

I'd also like to clarify my post wasn't a dig either,It may have been a statement you didn't like but it was actually very complimentary about you and CS. I would happily have a lesson from you, I think you ride very nicely. 
I think these photos demonstrate a slightly more grown up attitude from you about your horse.


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## Rouletterose (25 October 2011)

Baggybreeches said:



			For the record as someone whose ambition is nothing more than a decent days hunting I can actually say that I plugged away for 2 years with one of mine, and he could still have off days, fortunately his off days were manifested in standing still and going mule like, the off days got less and the good days got better, in the end I got him to give the 100% he had and the stubborn old bugger dropped dead 2 minutes later!

If you think you are doing the right thing PS then stick with it, I just think that if I am seeing him as tense (although I did say earlier he 'had one on him) then surely that is what a judge would see? I know exactly what you are going through, but TBH it's not really right for me and my horse to 'have it out' I tend to change the subject, but fair play to you I just think that it would be a shame to miss out on improvement by being blinkered.
		
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Point taken BB, someone else said earlier on this thread, in fact quite a few from memory that PS's posts spark shall we say 'interesting' arguments. I have realised having trawled through this lot(something I would not normally bother to do) that PS provokes 99% of it herself by being so prickly....and self righteous.


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## Madam_max (25 October 2011)

At the end of the day it's simple.

PS posts pics.  Everyone says how wonderful and fluffy it all looks and everyone is happy.


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## CalllyH (25 October 2011)

And the ones that don't do fluffy receive ****** pm's.


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## Baggybreeches (25 October 2011)

CalllyH said:



			And the ones that don't do fluffy receive ****** pm's. 

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 do people actually do that? 

I only ever recieved a strange one of MrsD123, who I think we established was mentally unstable, I blocked her and as such have never been bothered since (don't tell her but I unblocked her a while ago!)


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## CalllyH (25 October 2011)

Ha ha that's made me laugh. Yes they do.  Not PS though I would like to add.


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## Rouletterose (25 October 2011)

Madam_max said:



			At the end of the day it's simple.

PS posts pics.  Everyone says how wonderful and fluffy it all looks and everyone is happy.
		
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Sadly that does seem to be the case....shame....I don't do wonderful and flufffy, to me there is always so much more to learn from other riders and from horses themselves.


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## charlie55 (25 October 2011)

Well there goes my early night, thanks everyone lol!!! I'll be knackerd in the morning now!

I havent really got an opinion on this thread but i do think some people need some chill out and happy pills  

Love the pics and updates PS keep them coming x


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## popsdosh (26 October 2011)

I have kept out of this up to now I find it all very interesting.
To people that have been around serious horses all their working lives and compete at a higher level the horse does look tense that is not to say they do not like it.They are merely trying to make a younger rider aware of problems that may be occurring so the horse is not screwed up as you can push a horse over the edge and it happens so easily with precocious youngsters in relatively inexperienced hands.You have been given good advice from experienced people so take some heed of what has been said.
If all you need is reassurance you are right and that the sun shines out of your backside only take notice of the fan club!!!! and ignore the experienced people(some of whom may be judging in future).As has been said before the proof is in the scores and not how it is perceived on a forum.
Now I am going to be very blunt with you PS and say a bit less of the spoilt brat syndrome would help a lot.I think a lot of your replies on here have that feel about them.I hope you take that on board .
I will now toddle off on my zimmer and hide.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (26 October 2011)

last few posts are mainly rubbish-iv had some very interesting and civillised bouncing of ideas in the past with (and these are only the two that immedately spring to mind) half step and FB, which have resulted in me trying diff things/chnaging things slightly with good results, and iv gone back to them/ the thread, afterwards and said so.

i dont actually have to take every piece of advice given, but to say i disregard it all and only want *fluffy* comments is not true.


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## popsdosh (26 October 2011)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			last few posts are mainly rubbish-iv had some very interesting and civillised bouncing of ideas in the past with (and these are only the two that immedately spring to mind) half step and FB, which have resulted in me trying diff things/chnaging things slightly with good results, and iv gone back to them/ the thread, afterwards and said so.

i dont actually have to take every piece of advice given, but to say i disregard it all and only want *fluffy* comments is not true.
		
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I think this says so much about YOU!!!!!!!!


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## Ferdinase514 (26 October 2011)

Quite shocked when I saw he was only 6 tbh. Looks ok in pics, but my goodness that's a lot to be doing with a 6yr old TB.

Look up! You tend to draw your chin back and it spoils your balance and relaxation.


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## dressagelove (26 October 2011)

popsdosh said:



			I think this says so much about YOU!!!!!!!!
		
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Why?? I think this thread started off with good intentions, no one was being rude, and it has started to become quite personal, there is no need to start making personal remarks. I wouldn't be surprised if PS never wants to post on here again, whether or not she is in the right or wrong. 
Is does feel like it has turned into a bit of a witch hunt, everyone pick on PS because she MAYBE she got a little prickly and defensive. We all like to think we are open to CC, but I think many of us would get a little defensive in response to the pulling apart she has had as a rider, ON A PUBLIC FORUM!


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## Worried1 (26 October 2011)

Hmmmmm... I've watched this thread grow and grow. I rarely post in here and have definitely found since the 'Diva' post (who BTW is one my horses so not a dig!) that I am no longer 'in' with the crowd anymore.
However, and this is just my opinion... My suggestion is to watch Klaus Balkenhol from foal to Grand Prix horse.
He talks about the importance of strength and development, he believes that it takes 2 years just to build the blocks from which more advanced work can then be developed. He also discusses the curb and it's introduction.
There is also an interesting focus on a young horse which displays 'similar' traits to CS's moments.
It is one of the most informative DVDS we have watched and Mr Worried has ridden for Klaus several times, so I feel I can justify this recommendation.
Good luck with him, if he is as good as you think, I look forward to seeing you at PL shows and (fingers crossed for Blitz) on the Small Tour.


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## Kokopelli (26 October 2011)

*Sigh* this is why I never post any more.


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## Amymay (26 October 2011)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			lazy horses that get away with a trick a few times, learn to keep trying the same thing to get the same result (no rider, thus no work). ......

CS learnt this as a 2yo, he carried it on as a 3yo, he did it a lot with me as a 4yo, and each year since its got better.................is there no chance in your mind at all that this is not a tension/pushing issue? does the evidence not support the horse just trying it on out of habit.
		
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I read a beautiful analogy yesterday - which gave me a huge sense of enlightenment in the training of horses:

I've quoted from the post it came from - removing the name of the trainer although I'm sure they wouldn't mind.....

_'Imagine you are being thrown balls - you would go to catch with your dominant hand/arm, strap that dominant arm behind your back and increase the rate and speed of the balls - you would soon get pissed off, dive for cover or evacuate.' It made so much sense to me and to him it seemed, as he was catching every single ball and if he dropped one, no matter, xxxx threw the next one slightly slower._

Something for us all to consider when training I think.


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## TGM (26 October 2011)

I read that too and also thought it was an excellent analogy, AmyMay!


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## Amymay (26 October 2011)

TGM said:



			I read that too and also thought it was an excellent analogy, AmyMay!
		
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It was like a light had been switched on


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## Halfstep (26 October 2011)

Wow, what a mess of a post! I'm not a fan of slanging but healthy debate is good, especially in a subjective sport like dressage. I don't want to weigh in on a personal level but my broad observations are as follows:

Learning and performing movements is secondary always to the development of the basic paces, the quality of collection, and the shift of the balance towards the hind quarters. To me, this lovely horse has a super brain and a lot of athleticism, but his body and musculature are normal; he's a six year old horse. Which means that it is possible that his education exceeds his physical development. That's fine and often happens in training, but that gap should not be allowed to get too wide. I recall, for example, that Harry Boldt does not even start canter half passes until much later in a horses training because of the difficulty in sustaining the quality of collection until the horse is strong enough and confirmed in advanced work. 
With such a talented animal, it should be simple enough to teach test movements once the absolute correctness of the basic paces, the power, forward ness and suppleness have been confirmed. I'm sure PS knows this of course! But this post has gone beyond her, and in general that's what I think about the topic.


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## popsdosh (26 October 2011)

hayleyshep88 said:



			Why?? I think this thread started off with good intentions, no one was being rude, and it has started to become quite personal, there is no need to start making personal remarks. I wouldn't be surprised if PS never wants to post on here again, whether or not she is in the right or wrong. 
Is does feel like it has turned into a bit of a witch hunt, everyone pick on PS because she MAYBE she got a little prickly and defensive. We all like to think we are open to CC, but I think many of us would get a little defensive in response to the pulling apart she has had as a rider, ON A PUBLIC FORUM! 

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Ha Ha. please read PSs quote in my post as It does not show a lot of maturity(last few posts are mainly rubbish)
No witch hunt as I have never posted on any of her post before just the way I see it ,all this biting back is not doing her any favours in that department im afraid.Some people look at it through rose tinted glasses others tell it as it is and I know which I prefer.
If you cannot handle critique dont put yourself in the position were you might get it.There are lots of things that could be raised from the Photos but whats the point .I can only think some of you are looking at different photos.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (26 October 2011)

what i meant was-its rubbish to say i dont ever take on board what is said/try thingss or change things off the back of CC...............because i do.

In this particular case i dont agree the horse is being pushed and i dont agree the *moments* are due to anything other than remembered bad habits. 

No one is even acknowledging the opinion of the people who HAVE seen the horse in the flesh, both recently and as a 4/5yo, people are ignoring how much his attitude in the warm up has improved this year, its like they HAVE to stick by what they originally said, and cannot possibly accept that they might not have been 100% correct.

indeed there are plenty of other things to discuss from the pics, but like dogs with bones people will NOT let this one point go, despite being told repeatedly by the people closest to the horse that they have the wrong end of the stick.


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## Amymay (26 October 2011)

Out of interest PS, what does the horse do for 'fun' and 'down' time - I guess I'm alluding to RR's post ref galloping etc...


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (26 October 2011)

he's out, in the field, 7am-3pm every day all year round with company.

he does pole work (sometimes in shapes, sometimes raised etc) once a week.

if the ground is ok he also does canter work in a light seat in the field once a week, if the ground isnt good he does it in the school, but he's allowed to ping round without being asked to *work* if that makes sense, at a good forward canter.

he doesnt hack safely, or jump with any enthusiasm and i dont lunge as i think its dull for both of us.

i would also like to point out that not every session is hard work, sometimes we just stretch, run through a few transitions, have a bomb round in a light seat, and go in.

he's also doing a variety of different movements in each session, its not like he's just grinding round in circles.

i dont think he gets any less variety in his work than any other horse.


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## Amymay (26 October 2011)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			he's out, in the field, 7am-3pm every day all year round with company.

I dont think he gets any less variety in his work than any other horse.
		
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Thanks PS.  I'm always curious about these things - as I think it's so important that horses get ridden work that's not always about 'work' as it were.

Really great to hear that he has a good amount of turnout with company - as so many seem not too.


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## popsdosh (26 October 2011)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			indeed there are plenty of other things to discuss from the pics, but like dogs with bones people will NOT let this one point go, despite being told repeatedly by the people closest to the horse that they have the wrong end of the stick.
		
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I am afraid this has got a bit silly .I was merely pointing out that the people making these comments are experienced and just trying to stop you making the same mistake that we all have, it is very easy to overcook a young horse that is willing to learn ,and the symptoms are very easy to put down to just being naughty at first however once it crosses the line and you have gone to far its to late and in the end you will have a happier and more level headed horse by taking a little longer.It depends what you want,if you want quick results carry on but be aware you could burn him out .If you want a horse that will last a lifetime for you to enjoy take the pressure off a little.
The one bit of advice I tell everybody is the good young horses are the easiest to F... up.
I dont think thats to contoversial.


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## kerilli (26 October 2011)

i was trying very hard to sit on my hands through the whole of this, but i can't help myself, however i'll limit it to stating that I agree wholeheartedly with everything RouletteRose has said.
*baaaaaaa*


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## Booboos (26 October 2011)

Whatever the facts about the training of young horses and the training of this young horse in particular, some posts on this thread are aggresively personal and bordering on being offensive. At the end of the day this is PS's horse, she is doing those of us who enjoy her photos a favour by posting them on here, and this post has gone way past _Constructive_ Criticism.


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## charlie76 (26 October 2011)

popdosh, I agree re the young horse statement, I too have a horse that was over cooked as a young horse, he was talented so they over pushed him. He is 100% better but never lets go totally.

I think there is a massive difference between professional riders ( I am talking Carl Hester and the likes!) producing young horses and us mere mortals. I think that a proffesional rider is more inclined to know when to take the pressure off where as a amatuer may be less likely to back off when the signals show, A) because they aren't always aware of the signals and B) when it is your only horse you may feel under more pressure to push it, whereas the top riders have others they can compete if they need to taking the pressure off the horses that are less able to cope with the level of work.

Can I just add, and I put this on the other post, until PS got upset about the comments there was no personal attack on anyone, no one said the horse was useless and no one said that PS was a rbbish rider. All that happened was people posted their opinions on what they took away from looking at the vids and photos. No one was rude about the horse or rider, just stated the facts from the evidence in front of them! If the comments were rude I could see offense being taken, but they weren't. As is life, you take the bits away that you feel appropriate and ignore the rest.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (26 October 2011)

charlie76-your horse sounds far more stressed out and upset than CS:

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=488445


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## Sportznight (26 October 2011)

One word - WOW!


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## PooJay (26 October 2011)

i think this is a great thread - not the personal insults etc and i'm not going to pass judgment as i am nowhere near qualified to do so publicly. 

However, it's certainly made me think about how subtley a horse can tell you that what you're asking is too much of them. I am equally as concerned about pushing my girlie too hard too soon - but then i don't have the competitive desire as PS does. 

It's a really interesting subject imo - i see competition horses at the highest level looking completely tense (with a hard eye) and unhappy in their work with the tightest nosebands on, double bridles and foam pouring out of their mouths - I don't think they look happy and relaxed in their work. 

Maybe this thread isn't at all about PS and CS - maybe it is about competition dressage and the lengths and shortcuts riders take to get to the top and how the industry sets examples that aren't in the best interest of the horse - after all, PS is only doing what the top trainers do...isn't she?


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## quirky (26 October 2011)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			charlie76-your horse sounds far more stressed out and upset than CS:

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=488445

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 Really PS you do yourself no favours.
This has ended up being extremely juvenile.

I have come to the conclusion that if you didn't bite back at every comment made to you, your posts wouldn't end up in such an embarrassing bun fight.

I did initially feel a little sympathy towards you, now I don't .


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## Saratoga (26 October 2011)

quirky said:



 Really PS you do yourself no favours.
This has ended up being extremely juvenile.

I have come to the conclusion that if you didn't bite back at every comment made to you, your posts wouldn't end up in such an embarrassing bun fight.

I did initially feel a little sympathy towards you, now I don't .
		
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Couldn't agree more.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (26 October 2011)

But it is just one rule for one and one for another isnt it, i dont know how someone who's horse is rearing and slamming on the anchors at every suggestion of taking a contact, can sit there and condemn me for having a horse thats done it twice in 45mins one day and not at all the next!

its called defending myself aginst an absolute onslaught of crit, when some of those people have absolutely NO right to sit and preach.


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## charlie76 (26 October 2011)

Goodness me- grow up! Yes, he was like that, turned out that the saddle was no longer fitting. I had the saddle fitter out, he is now in an Albion and it stopped it.
It also turned out when the dentist returned that the dentist had burnt his tongue with the electric rasp causing him to be tense and upset- UNDERSTANABLY! If you you bothered to look through all of my posts you would have seen this too!
 The moment I though that my horse was having an issue I then looked into the cause. Not simply decide that he is a git and therefore I should just insist he worked through it!
Since changing the saddle the horse has been perfect!
He is also happily jumping 1.10 courses, hacks without getting stressed, can canter out hacking safely and has been ridden last week by an excellant rider who said he was fabulous with GP potential.

For photographic evidence:











Excuse the position!





As you can see- a picture of tension!
Oh and this is how he used to go ...as you can see, I ruined him!






If any of my horses start jacking it I stop and find out why!
I also think there is an element of you posting pics on here of your horse being naughty in order for us to be in awe of how good you are riding 'tricky' horses! I'm sorry, but it simply doesn't impress me. I have sat on my fair share of trouble when I was younger, I am now more inclined to take a step back and find out why they are behaving in that way.


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## Ferdinase514 (26 October 2011)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			But it is just one rule for one and one for another isnt it, i dont know how someone who's horse is rearing and slamming on the anchors at every suggestion of taking a contact, can sit there and condemn me for having a horse thats done it twice in 45mins one day and not at all the next!

its called defending myself aginst an absolute onslaught of crit, when some of those people have absolutely NO right to sit and preach.
		
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Yes. But we dont all choose to plaster it across the internet in photos, every chance we get.


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## MerrySherryRider (26 October 2011)

*Charlie76*. Lovely example. What a beautiful horse.


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## Sarah1 (26 October 2011)

quirky said:



 Really PS you do yourself no favours.
This has ended up being extremely juvenile.

I have come to the conclusion that if you didn't bite back at every comment made to you, your posts wouldn't end up in such an embarrassing bun fight.

I did initially feel a little sympathy towards you, now I don't .
		
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Absolutely agree.  Yesterday I felt sorry for PS and posted - not agreeing with either side but just stating that CS is PS's horse to do with as she see's fit.
Her reply is out of order.
PS - Yes, you can ride - better than I can I will freely admit.  Yes, CS is gorgeous and you have done a great job so far and he's obviously a very clever boy who needs a job to do.  BUT there are clearly far more experienced riders on here just asking you to stop & think about it just for a second - they are not suggesting you don't know your own horse merely suggesting that maybe, just maybe, you might be pushing too hard too soon.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (26 October 2011)

i actually agree that overall your horse does look very relaxed, but could it not be said that the dropped poll, BTV and curled lips are exactly the same as CS? But i somehow doubt you are going to get ripped apart for showing it...............

iv already said why i post pics-go back and have a look.

TBH, to me, the best indication of being a good rider is having a horse that is other people can get on and enjoy/get a tune out of. Id be worried if something wasnt improving at all and only i could *dare* to ride it....................in the last month, an elem/med rider, a PSG rider and a 15yo have all ridden him and got a lovely tune, playing with all the lateral work and single changes. thats what floats my boat-a horse that can be enjoyed by anyone that gets on board, NOT something that makes people ***** themselves!

the *naughty* pics makes me laugh, they are posted for amusement value alone, as i said about 50 pages ago-shame on me for showing it how it really is sometimes.


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## Sarah1 (26 October 2011)

charlie76 said:



			Goodness me- grow up! Yes, he was like that, turned out that the saddle was no longer fitting. I had the saddle fitter out, he is now in an Albion and it stopped it.
It also turned out when the dentist returned that the dentist had burnt his tongue with the electric rasp causing him to be tense and upset- UNDERSTANABLY! If you you bothered to look through all of my posts you would have seen this too!
 The moment I though that my horse was having an issue I then looked into the cause. Not simply decide that he is a git and therefore I should just insist he worked through it!
Since changing the saddle the horse has been perfect!
He is also happily jumping 1.10 courses, hacks without getting stressed, can canter out hacking safely and has been ridden last week by an excellant rider who said he was fabulous with GP potential.

For photographic evidence:











Excuse the position!





As you can see- a picture of tension!
Oh and this is how he used to go ...as you can see, I ruined him!






If any of my horses start jacking it I stop and find out why!
I also think there is an element of you posting pics on here of your horse being naughty in order for us to be in awe of how good you are riding 'tricky' horses! I'm sorry, but it simply doesn't impress me. I have sat on my fair share of trouble when I was younger, I am now more inclined to take a step back and find out why they are behaving in that way.
		
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Wow, just wow!


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## Amymay (26 October 2011)

charlie76 said:








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All I can say Charlie - once again - is simply stunning!


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## Sarah1 (26 October 2011)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			TBH, to me, the best indication of being a good rider is having a horse that is other people can get on and enjoy/get a tune out of
		
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I'm better than I think I am then!  My boy is an absolute pleasure to ride!!!! 
Thought he's no where near as talented as CS or Charlie76's horse!


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## Sportznight (26 October 2011)

OMG!!  More WOW!  HHO is better than daytime TV - Jerry Springer eat your heart out.  Handbags at dawn anyone?


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (26 October 2011)

(matchy matchy) saddlecloths at dawn maybe?!

Sarah1-i think that does mean a hell of a lot, he wasnt born a pleasure to ride, you made him like that. to me the best compliment is "ohmygod, he's so easy"


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## *hic* (26 October 2011)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			(matchy matchy) saddlecloths at dawn maybe?!

Sarah1-i think that does mean a hell of a lot, he wasnt born a pleasure to ride, you made him like that. to me the best compliment is "ohmygod, he's so easy"
		
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Bugger! There was me being pleased with "She's nothing like as easy as you make her look". Back to the drawing board methinks.


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## MerrySherryRider (26 October 2011)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			i actually agree that overall your horse does look very relaxed, but could it not be said that the dropped poll, BTV and curled lips are exactly the same as CS? But i somehow doubt you are going to get ripped apart for showing it...............

iv already said why i post pics-go back and have a look.
		
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Its difficult to look at one's own horse objectively,which perhaps is why observers may see what you don't. 
 The softness and fluidity of Charlie76's photo's are in complete contrast to the tense pictures of CS.


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## Sarah1 (26 October 2011)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			(matchy matchy) saddlecloths at dawn maybe?!

Sarah1-i think that does mean a hell of a lot, he wasnt born a pleasure to ride, you made him like that. to me the best compliment is "ohmygod, he's so easy"
		
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To be fair I don't have the know how to put him under any pressure though so life is a doddle for him!!!!!!  I ask him to behave for an hour a day (maximum - 6 days a week in summer and 2 in winter!) the rest of the time is his own to do with as he will!  He has the life of riley...


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## Rossifoal1 (26 October 2011)

I havent read all of the posts as quite frankly it was driving me crazy, but I fully agree with dressage crazy, the horse is tense in most of the pics and looks a little unhappy and I agree the naughtiness seems to be a release from the pressure. However I think that PS is a very nice rider with a super horse! I hope all the best for them and look forward to more posts as I do enjoy thm. I also think people should listen to each other and not take offence so easily. Neither PS nor DC are being malicious, and DC is most certainly not 'on her high horse!' 

Criticism comes in many forms and it isnt always to offend or pull down. If we all stopped being so ignorant we could learn a lot more from others. I know I have.


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## lannerch (26 October 2011)

Just have to add another oh wow! to charlie76 photos, shows you how with proper schooling, equipment and off course talent how harmoneous the picture becomes.


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## Winklepoker (26 October 2011)

I feel somewhat confused by all of this having, in the past, been very pro PS and her elegant riding and light hearted posts but I cannot help but feel a little sad for her.  I too would get defensive, I love my horse more than anything as I am sure PS does with CS and would defend him 100%.  Mine out of his choice would always looks BTV, never really has pricked ears or a relaxed jaw unless I ask for those things - he too was a little over cooked as a young horse I believe and has learnt to carry himself in that way.  I dont think the horse in question is being mistreated in any way shape or form, has a loving home and is spoilt rotten, so what on earth is the problem - If he does breakdown (not that I am willing or condoning it) - so what, he will have a lovely retirement home with PS for the rest of his days I am sure.  If you think you could do a better job - Offer her the cash for him.  I am positive that all of you are guilty of something that is not perfect, no one is perfect not even all of you 'experienced' posters - I know a lot of you are offering advice, but advice is hard to take when you are so passionately focussed - accept that PS is one of the better young riders on this forum and take her for what she is - Bloody passionate.


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## charlie76 (26 October 2011)

Thank you. You will know from my previous posts he I'd in no way perfect. When I started teaching him half pass he got very upset and Would stop or threaten to rear.  Myself and my trainer analysised why and we discovered I didn't have him round my inside leg enough so we backed off it and Have spent time on the basic suppleness
 I have Just started to reintroduce it in walk and he is far more accepting.  I do not want a tense rearing horse,  I want a happy relaxed one. If he isn't happy in the more advanced work I will Find another job For him, I will not force it to prove a point


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## brighteyes (26 October 2011)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			i actually agree that overall your horse does look very relaxed, but could it not be said that the dropped poll, BTV and curled lips are exactly the same as CS?
		
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But working into a contact?


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## charlie76 (26 October 2011)

He isn't curling his lips, in one he hs his mouth a little open and in the other its foam. He is in the last one but thats the yack picture from before. 
He is a bit BTV but only when I work him in to get him softer over his back. He works like this in the test:


















I try to work him in various frames to avoid any tension, it seems to work.
He was ridden from 3 yrs old in draw reins so it has taken a long while to re develop the muscles.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (26 October 2011)

actually no, in the first set of pics he doesnt to me look to be in to a contact, he looks to be curling back slightly from it, but in this last lot he looks a LOT better and whilst im not sure about the angle of the curb, in the double bridle pic he gives a lovely impression of taking the contact forward and being nicely uphill and off the ground.

in the last canter pic he looks a bit tighter in the neck to me.

(and id like to clarify that ive only passed comment because Brighteyes directly asked for my opinion of the first pics)

interestingly, iv been talking to a few people who know a lot more than me about TB bloodlines, and someone said that both Daylami (sire) and Alzao (damsire) are known to be quirky................so perhaps some of CS's character is genetic? Im not at all saying that nature over rides nurture 100% but we all know bloodlines play a part. I genuinely didnt realise Alzao was known to be sharp/quirky (i only knew he was pretty lol!), so it puts another spin on it.or it does for me anyway.


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## Lolo (26 October 2011)

PS- I'm convinced that temperament is semi-genetic. Most Alflora horses I know/ know of are very pretty with a lot to offer, but also seriously 'worried' horses. Reg fits this to the letter! He's looked after very carefully to minimise this, but it's still there.


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## diggerbez (26 October 2011)

Sportznight said:



			OMG!!  More WOW!  HHO is better than daytime TV - Jerry Springer eat your heart out.  Handbags at dawn anyone?
		
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I'M VERY GLAD ITS HALF TERM! not getting any of my half term jobs done though   i reckon it would be glittery whips and spurs at dawn surely??

Charlie...your horse is lovely  to my (untrained) eye he looks the best/most relaxed in the comp one thats in a frame


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## Festive_Felicitations (26 October 2011)

PS - as CS is 'apparently' over worked, undernourished and stressed beyond belief I think he need a holiday in Aus  And helpfully I know of a nice place.... 

He looks very nice in the pics and it was lovely to finally see a video of him in action (maybe I've missed earlier ones) as pictures are lovely but can't beat seeing him 'in action' - if that makes sense...

I haven't had time to read the last few pages, but please don't let this put you off posting I love reading your updates, hearing how your comps have gone and admiring you colour schemes! 
I'm now the proud owner of a set of blue bandages that match my saddle pad  now I just need a sound horse to model them....


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## Polotash (26 October 2011)

I bring on quite a few young horses and some of them are more difficult that others... This horse because of his racing background has clearly learnt some "tricks" as his rider says. They do learn how to unship jockeys, and not suprisingly they think "haha" when someone else gets on them and try the same thing again. Well done her for sticking with him and trying to iron out his kinks, most people would have labelled him a "problem" horse and passed him on, where goodness knows what would have befallen him... 

As for pushing him too fast, he'd get very bored going on a 20m circle all of the time, keeping him doing different things will keep him interested in his work in all likelihood. A 6 year old ex racer is NOT the same kettle of fish as a 6 year old warmblood with no "baggage", so he's not going to look forward, soft and happy 100% of the time!


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## Amaranta (26 October 2011)

charlie76 said:



			He isn't curling his lips, in one he hs his mouth a little open and in the other its foam. He is in the last one but thats the yack picture from before. 
He is a bit BTV but only when I work him in to get him softer over his back. He works like this in the test:


















I try to work him in various frames to avoid any tension, it seems to work.
He was ridden from 3 yrs old in draw reins so it has taken a long while to re develop the muscles.
		
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Super pictures of a happy athlete


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## coreteam1 (26 October 2011)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			interestingly, iv been talking to a few people who know a lot more than me about TB bloodlines, and someone said that both Daylami (sire) and Alzao (damsire) are known to be quirky................so perhaps some of CS's character is genetic? Im not at all saying that nature over rides nurture 100% but we all know bloodlines play a part. I genuinely didnt realise Alzao was known to be sharp/quirky (i only knew he was pretty lol!), so it puts another spin on it.or it does for me anyway.
		
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When I took my boy to the vets the other day, the vet asked his breeding.  When I told her his sire was Just Zulu (TB), her reply was

''Oh, I bet he's a quirky boy to ride then''  i just smiled and said ''oh yes, he can be''!!!
I definitely agree that they do inherit some of their characters from their bloodlines.

I just wanted to say PS that I hope you haven't taken things to heart/personally that have been said on here?  I think sometimes things said here hurt people's feelings more than they think?
After all, most of us on the forum are 'words on a thread' but the one's that do know both you and CS (even if it's only for a short time and occasionally), understand how he really looks and goes for you 
I remember seeing you (although didn't know you at the time) and him about 2yrs ago and he came out of your lorry looking for the race track.  He walked on his back legs all the way to the warm up arena.  You sat very quietly and worked him in.  I saw a very relaxed horse after about 20 min.
You then went into your test where I think he waved at the judge as you came down the centre line.  You sat quietly and he relaxed although in the end it got to much for him so you retired from the test.  
I saw you again about a year later and what a difference he was, clearly more relaxed, loving what he was doing.  I liked how you warmed up, relaxed, working him in a low stretchy frame. 
The last time I saw you out I watched from a distance as you did some changes and I was amazed at his ability and how easy you both made it look 

I don't know PS well and have only met a few times but honestly, this horse is special.


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## Chloe..x (27 October 2011)

charlie76 said:



			He isn't curling his lips, in one he hs his mouth a little open and in the other its foam. He is in the last one but thats the yack picture from before. 
He is a bit BTV but only when I work him in to get him softer over his back. He works like this in the test:


















I try to work him in various frames to avoid any tension, it seems to work.
He was ridden from 3 yrs old in draw reins so it has taken a long while to re develop the muscles.
		
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Just fell in love with your horse, he's amazing!


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## Amaretto (27 October 2011)

I need to sit in a dark corner after reading all this!  PS, interesting ti read about your horse's breeding - friend has an Alzao gelding, did BD, but he's a lot older than your boy.

If I were you I'd read all the cc's and hear step back.  Leave it a while and reflect.  Pick out what makes sense and apply it.  I am the first to defend my boy, and you are right to do so.  But please don't jump in so quickly, just digest it all, then if you feel the same, make your comment.


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## Amaretto (27 October 2011)

Sorry, can't adjust the predictive texting, am on the iPhone and am a technophobe!


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## mbequest (28 October 2011)

One a complete change of direction to the thread.......... PS is he barefoot? if he is, is there any reason for this? just out of curiousity.......


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (28 October 2011)

MBQ-yes he is.
just doesnt need shoes, even when we did hack he would happily tank up the road in trot, sound as a pound minus shoes .
i think its better for their feet to go bare if they can, so as long as he's happy and comfy he wont wear shoes................he's not footy at all even on various awful stoney car parks at shows!

amaretto-trust me that i thought before typing, but i dont think i have to sit back for days to know my horse.there is plenty of CC on here ,and also another forum, that i HAVE really taken note of, but i dont agree with the one point about him being any more tense than any other horse that is learning/working or that he is being pushed too hard. I dont have to agree with everything, but trust that i do pick out what i think is applicable.


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## PooJay (28 October 2011)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			MBQ-yes he is.
just doesnt need shoes, even when we did hack he would happily tank up the road in trot, sound as a pound minus shoes .
i think its better for their feet to go bare if they can, so as long as he's happy and comfy he wont wear shoes................he's not footy at all even on various awful stoney car parks at shows!

.
		
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I also think that horses are able to move better without shoes. There's more expression  Esp t/b's who have dinky little feet, to get weighed down by heavy shoes takes quality away from the gait imo.


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## Amaretto (28 October 2011)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			MBQ-yes he is.
just doesnt need shoes, even when we did hack he would happily tank up the road in trot, sound as a pound minus shoes .
i think its better for their feet to go bare if they can, so as long as he's happy and comfy he wont wear shoes................he's not footy at all even on various awful stoney car parks at shows!

amaretto-trust me that i thought before typing, but i dont think i have to sit back for days to know my horse.there is plenty of CC on here ,and also another forum, that i HAVE really taken note of, but i dont agree with the one point about him being any more tense than any other horse that is learning/working or that he is being pushed too hard. I dont have to agree with everything, but trust that i do pick out what i think is applicable.
		
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Oh I wasn't accusing you of not thinking, sorry if it came across that way.  You must feel so tired of having to defend yourself, was just trying to help and save you the hassle of having to constantly explain yourself.


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## LEC (28 October 2011)

Does it really matter what PS does with her horse? Until you have ridden in that persons shoes then you have absolutely no idea. 

I had a poster comment a while ago on my horse looking unhappy - it was his first ever event and he was not really established in any way but he needed the mileage so he looked green. It really hurt me for about 10 seconds then I thought FGS this person knows nothing about me or the horse and a picture is a snapshot in time and I had no respect for that persons opinion as they knew nothing about me. 

This post has gone on and on - PS is not going to change her methods she gets advice from trainers and has a support system in place so this is not a clueless numpty going ahead and doing stuff without anyone there to chip in if needed. 

We all have days where things are less than perfect and I had one last week where my horse was a nightmare. If it had been videoed you would have all been up in arms as he had tantrums kept getting tense and changing behind and had to be ridden strongly in places yet yesterday he came out and was superb.


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## seabsicuit2 (30 October 2011)

Thats interesting, was Alzao the damsire? I don't usually put much stock by dam sires but I used to have a ex race with Alzao as the dam sire and oh my goodness that horse was the naughtiest, nappiest boy I have ever had the pleasure of bringing on. 
He had basically been left in a field for nearly two years after retiring from racing as he threw his happy hack owner on the floor several times ( fair enough, she wasn't the kind of person who should have been bringing on an ex race) but when I got him, he spent a solid 6 months napping & trying every trick in the book to have me on the floor- it was only because he was so weedy & weak physically that he didn't succeed in dumping me. 
I remember at the start he was napping downhill a steep stony track - basically cantering and spinning sideways & I remember thinking, oh my goodness this horse has such natural balance- never for once did he feel like he was going to fall over or stumble. 
To this day I still haven't sat on a horse that had such amazing natural balance in canter- he was doing changes from day one , so easily and smoothly- I'm sure he could have done Tempi's if I'd tried. 
He was a lovely straight mover too, after my year of battling with him he was finally straightened out & was finally a good boy, he was sold into a pony club home& was a teenagers first horse, he did all the pony club teams & did very well. Unorthodox shape over a fence , but did love jumping . Interesting the similarities with CS! Like I say, I miss that horse because his balance in canter was just incredible.


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## amage (30 October 2011)

Hmmmm my Grade A mare is 15, jumps for fun, nice on the flat (though was horrible on the flat when I first got her at age 9) and she will quite regularly have a complete melt down/paddy attack/turn herself inside out. Is she under pressure....no? Is she tense.....yes quite probably due to whatever terrifying horse eating monsters are coming to get her! If you took a pic of her during one of these she would be slated for tension, unhappiness, obviously being forced out of her comfort zone. In actual fact she is sharp, a bit silly at times and likes to practice handstands etc! I really cannot believe the double standards on this thread....and the most recent pictures held up of a lovely relaxed athlete....well yes the horse looks fab but rider is wearing a beagler which has been established as being about as much use as a chocolate teapot for protection so why is this poster not being slated for not protecting her head. I have locked horns with PS in the past over posts but I have serious respect for her riding and what appears to be very professional horse management! barring she is going to post a video of a full schooling session I don't think we can really comment as pictures are a moment in time. Surely you have all mulled over pro pics from shows and not bought some because they just aren't nice, your face is funny, your position is funny, the horse looks odd, is doing something odd etc. They are no indication of how good or bad your result was!


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## magic104 (1 January 2012)

Halfstep said:



			Wow, what a mess of a post! I'm not a fan of slanging but healthy debate is good, especially in a subjective sport like dressage. I don't want to weigh in on a personal level but my broad observations are as follows:

Learning and performing movements is secondary always to the development of the basic paces, the quality of collection, and the shift of the balance towards the hind quarters. To me, this lovely horse has a super brain and a lot of athleticism, but his body and musculature are normal; he's a six year old horse. Which means that it is possible that his education exceeds his physical development. That's fine and often happens in training, but that gap should not be allowed to get too wide. I recall, for example, that Harry Boldt does not even start canter half passes until much later in a horses training because of the difficulty in sustaining the quality of collection until the horse is strong enough and confirmed in advanced work. 
With such a talented animal, it should be simple enough to teach test movements once the absolute correctness of the basic paces, the power, forward ness and suppleness have been confirmed. I'm sure PS knows this of course! But this post has gone beyond her, and in general that's what I think about the topic.
		
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Sorry to drag this up but there have been so many valid points made, including the above & I think it is important that riders remember that this is a partnership.  You are not a dictator, you ask, the horse.  I dont believe the horse in question is physically/mentally ready for all the movements being asked of him, & he is saying so in his body language.  As a rider it is your job to listen.  I say this all the time, a horse is a herd animal, to survive it has to co-operate with the rest of the herd or it dies.  Horses dont disobey for the hell of it, they might just be fresh, overfed, asked a question they dont understand, etc.  There is a reason, & it is not "Im going to be difficult today because I dont feel like working with you".  Yes they will have their off days, they are not machines, but how many times have riders looked at themselves?  How many times have riders got on their horse already carrying the tensions of the day, then transmitting that down to the horse?  

Please have gone one about what other youngsters have done, well Charlotte turned Fernandez away soon after he was bought to allow him to chill out as the work had been too intense & he was not wanting to co-operate.  Just because you see a 4yo doing flying changes does not mean that all 4yos are ready for that.  How many of them have then had to go back a few paces to re-build their confidence, before proceeding again?

Also it keeps coming up, the amount of time someone has been teaching, riding means nothing as far as gaining experience & empathy are concerned.  Emphathy is the greatest key to horsemanship along with a good deal of common sense.  That is something someone can have after months of being around horses yet another will never have after 30 odd years.  Sadly not all the pro riders can feel when their horse is unhappy, or they choose to ignore the signs.  Horses are individuals, it is not a case of one hat fits all.  Talking of which if the poster wants to ride without a hat & she is paid to ride other peoples horses, then she should be insured.  I think I am correct in stating that she is invalidating her insurance by riding without a hat.  Funny how many riders including pros think their heads are thicker then anyone elses!!  They obviously dont give a flying +$$$ for family, or if they survive those that have to care for them & tax payers who have to foot the bill for the hospital care.  Doubtful many of them would have worked & earned enough contributions to have covered these costs.  

There are many videos like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvunnwtNahE it shows a partnership which has taken time to develope.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alryG8sSYBw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vc8Ky7T26Dc


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## BronsonNutter (2 January 2012)

magic104 said:



			Funny how many riders including pros think their heads are thicker then anyone elses!!  They obviously dont give a flying +$$$ for family, or if they survive those that have to care for them & tax payers who have to foot the bill for the hospital care.  Doubtful many of them would have worked & earned enough contributions to have covered these costs.  

There are many videos like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvunnwtNahE it shows a partnership which has taken time to develope.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alryG8sSYBw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vc8Ky7T26Dc

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Funny how you are so pro-hat, and yet out of the three videos you have linked to, one is completely hatless and another is in a top hat  It's a bit contradicory, especially considering that those two are riding in front of audiences/under spotlights, one of which appears to be galloping round in circles, all without bridles? Don't get how that could possibly be a remotely safe situation...

Not wanting to be harsh but I'm not sure why this has been dragged up again, and I'm annoyed because I can't find my hunting photos from today


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## magic104 (2 January 2012)

BronsonNutter said:



			Funny how you are so pro-hat, and yet out of the three videos you have linked to, one is completely hatless and another is in a top hat  It's a bit contradicory, especially considering that those two are riding in front of audiences/under spotlights, one of which appears to be galloping round in circles, all without bridles? Don't get how that could possibly be a remotely safe situation...

Not wanting to be harsh but I'm not sure why this has been dragged up again, and I'm annoyed because I can't find my hunting photos from today 

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Sorry I am not against someone being "hatless" it is their prerogative, but it does not alter the fact it is a selfish act.  It does not alter the fact it invalidates your insurance, it does not alter the fact that your treatment costs the NHS.  So my comments "Funny how many riders including pros think their heads are thicker then anyone elses!! They obviously dont give a flying +$$$ for family, or if they survive those that have to care for them & tax payers who have to foot the bill for the hospital care. Doubtful many of them would have worked & earned enough contributions to have covered these costs."  say nothing about DON'T ride without a hat, just the consequences.  Also "It's a bit contradicory, especially considering that those two are riding in front of audiences/under spotlights, one of which appears to be galloping round in circles, all without bridles? Don't get how that could possibly be a remotely safe situation...". Shows that when you understand your equine partner & the trust is there for both there is no need to "dictate" the horse is a willing partner.  None of these horses were trained overnight, so I really dont get what point you are trying to make??  You ride with your weight not the bridle, there is a western rider, if you had watched reining classes then you would know that is what they do.  QH's are trained to go flat out when chasing cattle & to stop ASAP once it has been roped.  Riding in front of an audience under the spotlights, wow that is dangerous on an untrained horse perhaps.  But hey at least they dont have to walk out on foot or ride another to accept any rewards because their horse cant cope with the applauding!

It is without doubt that temperment has some bearing on how horses are going to react to their training.  It does not alter the fact that they are individuals who react towards their humans no differently as we do to each other.  In that respect just like humans can meet another & not take to them, so can the horse & visa versa.  As I said it is a partnership not a dictatorship.  The videos show a partnership & trust between horse & human.


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## TarrSteps (2 January 2012)

I can't believe I'm contributing to this. . .but, out of curiosity, Magic, how involved are you in training competitive reining horses or AQHA horses in general? Re using them as an example, they push horses very young, Futurities are all, no one ever wears a helmet, and while there are lovely trainers, I'm sure, it's a very hard gig. Yes, the Olympic inclusion has changed things a lot but that was pretty much forced on them and the first year the Americans struggled to find good horses older than 6 that were still competing!!

Don't get me wrong, I love reining and it's great fun. But as an example of a discipline that favours the sympathetic development of every horse as an individual and a high premium on mental and physical long term soundness. . .hmmm.


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## jodie :) (2 January 2012)

As a lurker on this forum this thread deters me from posting even more...
PS i love your threads, I love seeing the pictures of you and CS working- It's a real inspiration for a numpty like me! Please keep on posting


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## magic104 (2 January 2012)

TarrSteps said:



			I can't believe I'm contributing to this. . .but, out of curiosity, Magic, how involved are you in training competitive reining horses or AQHA horses in general? I have always liked the QH after seeing them at Stoneleigh 20 odd years ago.  I dont agree with starting yearlings/2yos, but it does not stop me going racing or watching reining classes.

Re using them as an example, they push horses very young, Futurities are all, no one ever wears a helmet, and while there are lovely trainers, I'm sure, it's a very hard gig. Yes, the Olympic inclusion has changed things a lot but that was pretty much forced on them and the first year the Americans struggled to find good horses older than 6 that were still competing!! - Where did I say they were perfect?  Where did I indicate that the videos represent anything but the individual & their horse?  Western riding originates from working the ranch/cattle, the hats were protection from the weather & chaps protected their legs.  They use different saddles, ride longer, their horses generally need to be far steadier, & they have a totally different culture/history to the UK.  Their shows are a reflection of their history working horses.  Just like all the red coats you see when going hunting. 

Don't get me wrong, I love reining and it's great fun. But as an example of a discipline that favours the sympathetic development of every horse as an individual and a high premium on mental and physical long term soundness. . .hmmm.  -  Again it is a video depicting the individual & their horse, it just happens to be reining, it could of been showjumping!  There is no where on the post that suggests anything other then it being an example of a partnership
		
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My mare will move over in the stable when asked.  You dont need to point you just ask.  This did not happen over night, it started with a gentle nudge with the hand, followed by a point of the finger to just voice.  She learns like any other animal including human through repetitive & consistant work.  If people want to dictate or use stronger tactics with their horses, fine, but dont knock someone for pointing out there are other ways of doing things.  Dont knock someone because they have pointed out that from what they can see the horse does not look happy.  Dont dismiss someone because you cant see what they see.  Some of these posters have taken a lot of stick when their views are very valid.  A 6yo TB may well not be mature enough either physically or mentally, so pointing that out is not unfair comment.  There are too many posts but in one it is stated something along the lines I jumped on it straight away.  A 6yo is still a baby, yes you have to be firm, but you also need to be sure that what you are asking is acceptable.  It is being asked in a way that the horse understands & you know that it is capable of doing.  A lot of horses have set backs, they get sour, they get niggly pains just like we do.  How many people have got a blister & then been able to walk perfectly, no limping, no tightness in the body?  Horses cant tell you I have a little niggle when you do that, can you stop?  Well they do, it will be maybe  slight tension, a swish of the tail. which you ignore, so they increase their message, & so forth.  I also know that years around horses means nothing if you dont listen & understand their body language.


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## TarrSteps (2 January 2012)

I think there is an irony here. . .

Anyhow, I said none of those things, I merely pointed out that using reining as an example of tact, understanding, individual training, and the importance of time is perhaps worth a conversation. 

I'm all for honesty, fair examination, empathy, and polite discussion.


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## TarrSteps (2 January 2012)

By the way, learning doesn't come from repetition, it comes from understanding and proficiency comes from prefect practice. That's why it is quite possible for a horse to learn - good or bad - in a single session, and why it is possible to do things badly for years.


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## tonitot (2 January 2012)

We had a horse at work who's sire is Alzao and he was quirky, always squealing and would kick over the wheelie bins on bin day. He was a funny boy 

I have an exracehorse, well she was in training but never raced, and I hope one day to be able to do half of what you and boy do with her  I think hrs stunning and you've done a great job with him. Can I send my mare to you so you can work your magic in her


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## magic104 (2 January 2012)

TarrSteps said:



			By the way, learning doesn't come from repetition, it comes from understanding and proficiency comes from prefect practice. That's why it is quite possible for a horse to learn - good or bad - in a single session, and why it is possible to do things badly for years.
		
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Sorry TarrSteps but horses learn from repetition & consistancy, ask any trainer especially those that do stunt work.  Below is what promoted posters to question what is going on here.

"the trot and the canter have gone up another notch in terms of power/self carrige, and all the sideways stuff is comming much easier, there is just the occasional moment when he simply has to check im awake, and that i applied superglue.....and he wouldnt be him if we didnt have at least one episode of snake head and backwards bucking each week!"

"and just for good measure........check i wasnt getting complacent......." - Horses dont think that way?  If the horse is reacting like this then he is either uncomfortable with something or he is testing your leadership skills. 
"he only did it twice, and then he thought about it once more, but decided against it of his own free will .................and as ive said previously, these tantrums are far less frequent and far less intense that they have been previously-do you not think that might tie in more with a submission issue that an mental pressure issue?"

"he worked for 45mins and the only tantrums he had are the 2 you see in these pics."

"firewell-yes, definately he gets a rollocking! you can see in the first set of pics that he pulled his fave *trick* of bucking whilst jumping backwards and slightly to the left then droppign a shoulder and spinning 360 to the right......if you try and stop him mid spin he just goes higher so better to sit, let him stop moving and then kick him forward (and he gets sent forward really very firmly indeed if you catch my drift)."


 Hence the comments like below

"The odd tantrum in a session fine but often & periods of this behaviour throughout a schooling session would make me feel that there was to much pressure on the horse." - This is a valid comment, because horses are not geared up to give us a hard time, they would never survive like this in the wild.  We may have domesticated them, but we have not taken away their natural flight process in dealing with things.  We can modify it, but the horse is a prey animal, it reacts in defence.

"Do you not think if CS did not want PS to ride him anymore as he was too much he would do a "Proper" display of his acrobatics until she was on the floor...at the end of the day if a horse doesn't want to do something it won't -"  This is what worries me, because this is garbage, just ask the amount of vets who have treated horses who have been in pain for years!  Yes they may have objected, but if the rider is good enough to sit through it then yes a horse will just give up.  I had a TB mare long story, but had been beaten & treated as a "TB mare" only she had muscle damage in the area where the saddle fits.  Yet she did not rodeo everytime ridden, she might be tense but she certainly didnt spend her time trying to get you off all the time.


"Is it me or can you see that he is wearing a 'I'm gonna be a monkey today' expression

"He is a monkey, but a very talented and gorgeous one! Have you entered the RoR dressage series thingy?"

Looking fantastic as always but what a cheeky boy haha" - Love the naughty pics, he really does have his naghty face on!

Ha ha these really made me smile, looks all super dressage horsey and then morphs into little s..t mode!" - So it is assumed he is just naughty, ok that was just what was said of my mare, who receive punishment for being in pain.  Not saying its the case here, but horse dont think as a human they think as a horse.



"the episodes are not new, are lesser in frequency and er intensity(!) than previously and are not related to any specific movement or even to harder work, more often than not the first one comes from trotting on a loose rein and suddenly WHAM horse is out from under me and spinning-he apparently used to do the same in race training and has always been inclined to test his rider (race trainer called him un-genuine ). i dont think he'll ever come out without testing me at least once,i just think he'll always need to check that im still the boss." Never thought to ask why?  Why is he testing your & previous leadership skills?  

"there are *yes* horses and *maybe* horses, CS is a *maybe* horse-he has to check how much i want it, each and every day, and thats fine with me because it doesnt bother me in the slightest and i couldnt afford a *yes* horse with GP potential." ~~- Really?  You honestly believe a horse thinks in that way?  A horse does not give a sh$t, about how much you want it.  He just wants to know that he can trust you to keep him safe.  That is it in a nutshell.  If he is playing up like this, then either there is something going on where he is not comfortable whether physical or he mentally cant cope with the work or he does not completely trust you!  The fact he is doing it each & every day, & you are ignoring him, & is exactly why you are getting the comments so far.  He is NOT happy.

What the horse does is test your leadership skills, are you up to the job.  They react when they are in pain or uncomfortable, if they are overfed for the work they are doing, if the tack is causing discomfort, if they are scared, bored, excited etc.  They dont, dont sit there thinking, umm wonder how I can make life difficult for her/him today.  Humans forever put human traits onto animals.  They live by instinct, everything black and white.  So why then do humans one minuet allow a behaviour & the next punish it?  The most common, lead your horse to the mounting block, get on, it takes a step forward before your ready, your in a rush, you dont correct it, yet next time you do.  It is either acceptable to fidget, or its not.  If you tell a child do that & the consequences are... & you dont follow through, what happens?  Some horses have more character then others, but they all still live by the same rules of instinct.   

And TarrSteps, yes I am very very lucky, none of my horses that I have bred have been anything but straight forward once I have listened to them.  But then it is a lot easier when you have had them all their lives.  But even the ones I have taken on with their "quirks" have turned out fine.  I failed with one and that was due to her having kissing spine.  I think she spent 2yrs being described as a "difficult mare", naughty, hormonal etc.


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## foxy1 (2 January 2012)

TarrSteps said:



			I can't believe I'm contributing to this. . .but, out of curiosity, Magic, how involved are you in training competitive reining horses or AQHA horses in general? Re using them as an example, they push horses very young, Futurities are all, no one ever wears a helmet, and while there are lovely trainers, I'm sure, it's a very hard gig. Yes, the Olympic inclusion has changed things a lot but that was pretty much forced on them and the first year the Americans struggled to find good horses older than 6 that were still competing!!

Don't get me wrong, I love reining and it's great fun. But as an example of a discipline that favours the sympathetic development of every horse as an individual and a high premium on mental and physical long term soundness. . .hmmm. 

Click to expand...

Have to say the irony struck me too, having had the misfortune to share a yard with a reining "champion"


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## Ginn (2 January 2012)

Wow! A lot of nieve, ignorant and bitchy comments on here today!


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## superpony (2 January 2012)

magic104 said:



			My mare will move over in the stable when asked.  You dont need to point you just ask.  This did not happen over night, it started with a gentle nudge with the hand, followed by a point of the finger to just voice.  She learns like any other animal including human through repetitive & consistant work.  If people want to dictate or use stronger tactics with their horses, fine, but dont knock someone for pointing out there are other ways of doing things.  Dont knock someone because they have pointed out that from what they can see the horse does not look happy.  Dont dismiss someone because you cant see what they see.  Some of these posters have taken a lot of stick when their views are very valid.  A 6yo TB may well not be mature enough either physically or mentally, so pointing that out is not unfair comment.  There are too many posts but in one it is stated something along the lines I jumped on it straight away.  A 6yo is still a baby, yes you have to be firm, but you also need to be sure that what you are asking is acceptable.  It is being asked in a way that the horse understands & you know that it is capable of doing.  A lot of horses have set backs, they get sour, they get niggly pains just like we do.  How many people have got a blister & then been able to walk perfectly, no limping, no tightness in the body?  Horses cant tell you I have a little niggle when you do that, can you stop?  Well they do, it will be maybe  slight tension, a swish of the tail. which you ignore, so they increase their message, & so forth.  I also know that years around horses means nothing if you dont listen & understand their body language.
		
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But how can you make these judgements not knowing CS, PS or seeing the horse in person, just seeing photos? I'm not sure why you have brought this thread back up.

I'm sure my 10yr old and 14yr old looks tense during work at times as does any horse or any person for that matter!!!

Please keep posting PS I look forward to your threads and learn alot having a ex-racer myself.


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## BronsonNutter (2 January 2012)

magic104 said:



			Sorry I am not against someone being "hatless" it is their prerogative, but it does not alter the fact it is a selfish act..... say nothing about DON'T ride without a hat, just the consequences.
		
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If you are pro-choice about hat wearing, then why point it out in the first place? I'm pro-choice on a lot of things - abortion, contraception, religion etc, but if I were to call one of those choices selfish/stupid/irrepsonsible then others would assume (probably correctly, else why would I have said it!) that therefore I was NOT pro-choice. 




			Also "It's a bit contradicory, especially considering that those two are riding in front of audiences/under spotlights, one of which appears to be galloping round in circles, all without bridles? Don't get how that could possibly be a remotely safe situation...". Shows that when you understand your equine partner & the trust is there for both there is no need to "dictate" the horse is a willing partner.  None of these horses were trained overnight, so I really dont get what point you are trying to make??  You ride with your weight not the bridle, there is a western rider, if you had watched reining classes then you would know that is what they do.  QH's are trained to go flat out when chasing cattle & to stop ASAP once it has been roped.  Riding in front of an audience under the spotlights, wow that is dangerous on an untrained horse perhaps.  But hey at least they dont have to walk out on foot or ride another to accept any rewards because their horse cant cope with the applauding!
		
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I have watched reining classes, and they put an awful lot of physical strain on the horse. I didn't realise they were quite so young though until TarrSteps mentioned it. 

And I'm not a complete idiot - I do know that you don't ride by just pulling on a pair of reins  Infact, I used to jump my old horse without any tack (Did you know, riding without tack also invalidates your insurance with many companies? so all three of the riders in your videos are invalidating theirs! Yet another hypocritical point...) and this morning didn't even have to touch my horses mouth - despite having been hunting yesterday - and he hacked out beautifully with just the aids from my legs and seat. 

Are you arguing that CS was trained overnight? Because if you think he was, I'd sure like to send my horse to her for a day and end up with something that can compete successfully at advanced-medium 

Any horse, even a 'trained' one, can freak out in certain circumstances. I've seen a certain 4*-winning eventer, whose been to the Olympics and other championships, having one of her advanced horses throw a complete fit in the warm up of an even because a door banged in the indoor arena. You can't really argue that that horse is not trained.
Also, even a trained horse can slip or stumble, especially when galloping in a tight arena. I've had a rotational fall on a very experienced jumping pony because his back leg slipped on take off as the surface was a bit loose. Even if you trust the horse not to deliberately try and deck you because you have a partnership, it doesn't mean that an accident won't happen. 

Finally, I have NO idea what point you're trying to make either, so that makes two of us. I understand my point perfectly well though. I also don't see why you decided to drag up this thread which had been done to death and buried two months ago?


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## magic104 (2 January 2012)

foxy1 said:



			Have to say the irony struck me too, having had the misfortune to share a yard with a reining "champion"
		
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Do you people not read?  "Where did I say they were perfect? Where did I indicate that the videos represent anything but the individual & their horse?" I repeat, this is about the indviduals concerned in the videos & their horses, not the dicipline or how anyone else trains their horse.  No wonder horses struggle god almighty, READ before questioning what has already been answered.  As you both seem to be so hung up over reigning here try this!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImzUgnhV-EU

I also repeat the videos are an example of COMMUNICATION & TRUST 

"But how can you make these judgements not knowing CS, PS or seeing the horse in person, just seeing photos? I'm not sure why you have brought this thread back up."  Because of her comment 
""the trot and the canter have gone up another notch in terms of power/self carrige, and all the sideways stuff is comming much easier, there is just the occasional moment when he simply has to check im awake, and that i applied superglue.....and he wouldnt be him if we didnt have at least one episode of snake head and backwards bucking each week!" - Each week, come one.  Bought it back up because too many people have the mind set that horses are naughty are capable of thinking like a human & "Sorry to drag this up but there have been so many valid points made, including the above & I think it is important that riders remember that this is a partnership. You are not a dictator, you ask, the horse."


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## foxy1 (2 January 2012)

The funny thing is, magic, by and large I completely agree with what you are saying. I also don't believe that horses have "tantrums" or even are "naughty". They only react.

But why drag up this old this old thread again? I agree some valid points have been made along the way but largely been lost amongst the other rubbish.

(Are you going to shout at me for not reading your reply properly again, sorry I do tend to skim read long text, probably why I got in to a lot of trouble at school  )


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## dingle12 (2 January 2012)

How did i miss this post ?? also can i ask who is ur sister you keep referring to? The colored in my sig does fantastic work then all of a sudden will be a total **** going backwards trying to nap all so he does not go forward. Its as if a switch goes off then back on. This happens every so often at home never at comps i do think some horses just try it on.


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## kirstie (2 January 2012)

Magic104, quite frankly you seem to have far too much time on your hands.

I watched a Carl Hester programme, showing valegro as a 6yo. He had canter half pass, canter pirouettes, 3 & 4x changes established. In short, he was more advanced at 6 than CS. Has he been ruined and rushed in your opinion? 
Bearing in mind warmbloods mature much slower than tb's.
Most sharp horses thow a fit every now and again. If I backed off everytime my horse had a moment I would be lucky to trot round with no contact.

Also, for the record, there is a lot more to dressage training than that of asking a horse to move over in it's stable...


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## Topaz Tiger (2 January 2012)

It never fails to amaze me how rude some people can be to each other on this forum.
I can only presume it is caused by the detachment of writing this from behind a computer screen, because otherwise I dread to think what these people would be like in real life.
Magic is this how you speak to people face to face? 
"Do you people not read?"
PS. Its Reining, not reigning......


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## Dotilas (2 January 2012)

magic104 said:



			As you both seem to be so hung up over reigning here try this!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImzUgnhV-EU

I also repeat the videos are an example of COMMUNICATION & TRUST
		
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***NH Alert, I repeat, NH Alert!***

Why didn't that come with a warning, I don't like horse's windpipes squashed by white ropes around their necks, just letting you know this isn't everyone's cup of tea. Yes an example of communication, instead of a bit being used, windpipe squashing is practiced. Have you ever been on a horse that is peeing off with you? Try yanking on the martingale which will produce a similar action to the white ropes, my horse hates it so much he stops dead.


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## TarrSteps (2 January 2012)

To be fair, Dotilas, that is not hire neck ropes, at least not used correctly. Have you ridden with one? Maybe your horse stops because that aid makes more sense to him?

I guess this is kind of my point. Yes, of course, it is perfectly valid to have opinions and express them, but why are horse people so quick to assume that anything that isn't exactly as they would do, is a necessarily abusive practice. Good and bad in all. Or at least that has been my experience. No, you don't need a bit to force a horse to do something and riding without one isn't proof of a training method. But choosing to test your skills that way doesn't make you a delusional idiot, either. 

Magic, perhaps we got off on the wrong foot, although I was amused by the idea of you instantly assuming I'm an unsympathetic horseman on the strength of one post where I merely pointed out that reining may fulfil some obviously 'horse friendly' criteria - loose rein, relaxed head carriage - but in fact that end result can be produced by some very horse un-friendly practices. Such are the dangers of going by a few photos or videos or comments on the internet.  

I think there are a few other threads running currently where you might find some different views. 

Anyway, it all comes out in the wash eventually. I think most people really are doing the best with what they know at the time. I shudder to think of some of the things I've done to horses in the past and I'm damn glad there aren't photos on the internet for all perpetuity!!


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## TarrSteps (2 January 2012)

Point of, not hire in the first line. Weird phone.


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## magic104 (2 January 2012)

kirstie said:



			Magic104, quite frankly you seem to have far too much time on your hands.

I watched a Carl Hester programme, showing valegro as a 6yo. He had canter half pass, canter pirouettes, 3 & 4x changes established. In short, he was more advanced at 6 than CS. Has he been ruined and rushed in your opinion? - Carl would have progressed at the horses pace, everything would be firmly established before they moved onto the next movement.  I repeat Charlotte had enough concern for her youngster to give him time out to grow up after being "forced".  Also both happen to ride in balance with their horses, something lacking for most riders!

Bearing in mind warmbloods mature much slower than tb's. - No they dont, their growth plates all develope in the same way.  It is a myth that TB's mature quicker then WB's.  It is considered that all horses are mature by 6yrs, that is all breeds.  Mental maturity is down to the individual.

Most sharp horses thow a fit every now and again. If I backed off everytime my horse had a moment I would be lucky to trot round with no contact. - NOW & AGAIN.  That is not the msg that is coming from "he wouldnt be him if we didnt have at least one episode of snake head and backwards bucking each week!" 

Also, for the record, there is a lot more to dressage training than that of asking a horse to move over in it's stable...
		
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 - No you dont say!


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## Pachamama (2 January 2012)

kirstie said:



			I watched a Carl Hester programme, showing valegro as a 6yo. He had canter half pass, canter pirouettes, 3 & 4x changes established. In short, he was more advanced at 6 than CS. Has he been ruined and rushed in your opinion?
		
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If you're going to make a direct comparison between horses then perhaps you should do the same for the riders.




			Bearing in mind warmbloods mature much slower than tb's.
		
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Not correct. And has been stated previously racing TBs are started under saddle before they're even 2.


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## magic104 (2 January 2012)

BronsonNutter said:



			If you are pro-choice about hat wearing, then why point it out in the first place? I'm pro-choice on a lot of things - abortion, contraception, religion etc, but if I were to call one of those choices selfish/stupid/irrepsonsible then others would assume (probably correctly, else why would I have said it!) that therefore I was NOT pro-choice. - Sorry of course it is not a selfish act to get on a horse who can play up without a hat.  If you are injured your family wont be affected, you wont incure hospital treatment.  No I can see that is not selfish, my mistake.



I have watched reining classes, and they put an awful lot of physical strain on the horse. I didn't realise they were quite so young though until TarrSteps mentioned it.  - Oh dear another who does not read. 

And I'm not a complete idiot - I do know that you don't ride by just pulling on a pair of reins  Infact, I used to jump my old horse without any tack (Did you know, riding without tack also invalidates your insurance with many companies? so all three of the riders in your videos are invalidating theirs! Yet another hypocritical point...) and this morning didn't even have to touch my horses mouth - despite having been hunting yesterday - and he hacked out beautifully with just the aids from my legs and seat.  - Lucky for them they have a decent enough seat & have trained their horses so well.  As these are demonstrations I am sure the insurance was looked into.

Are you arguing that CS was trained overnight? Because if you think he was, I'd sure like to send my horse to her for a day and end up with something that can compete successfully at advanced-medium  - NO, I am saying that other people have voiced their concerns & been shot down despite their comments being valid.  At 6 he has only just matured, if he is playing up on a weekly basis then something is wrong.

Any horse, even a 'trained' one, can freak out in certain circumstances. I've seen a certain 4*-winning eventer, whose been to the Olympics and other championships, having one of her advanced horses throw a complete fit in the warm up of an even because a door banged in the indoor arena. You can't really argue that that horse is not trained.
Also, even a trained horse can slip or stumble, especially when galloping in a tight arena. I've had a rotational fall on a very experienced jumping pony because his back leg slipped on take off as the surface was a bit loose. Even if you trust the horse not to deliberately try and deck you because you have a partnership, it doesn't mean that an accident won't happen. - Some horses have quirks partly helped by previous handling.  Horses are born individuals but life experiences shape how they will re-act along with their basic instincts.  We are not talking one offs, we are talking about a horse that is showing signs of not being happy on a regular basis, what part of this are you not getting?


Finally, I have NO idea what point you're trying to make either, so that makes two of us. I understand my point perfectly well though. I also don't see why you decided to drag up this thread which had been done to death and buried two months ago?
		
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 - This has already been answered.


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## magic104 (2 January 2012)

Pachamama said:



			If you're going to make a direct comparison between horses then perhaps you should do the same for the riders.


Not correct. And has been stated previously racing TBs are started under saddle before they're even 2.
		
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All horses develope in the same way, their skelton development not maturing until they are about 6.  Enough horses have been cut up & dissected to disprove that TB's mature in their skelton any quicker then any other breed,.


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## Pachamama (2 January 2012)

magic104 said:



			All horses develope in the same way, their skelton development not maturing until they are about 6.  Enough horses have been cut up & dissected to disprove that TB's mature in their skelton any quicker then any other breed,.
		
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Yes, I know. AND they're backed younger.


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## Dotilas (2 January 2012)

TarrSteps said:



			To be fair, Dotilas, that is not hire neck ropes, at least not used correctly. Have you ridden with one? Maybe your horse stops because that aid makes more sense to him?
		
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Sorry, feeling a bit opinionated today and couldn't be bothered to balance my post as I would normally do. 

The point I was badly trying to make is that there are different methods of communication, and all have their pros and cons. There are different methods of training, all have their pros and cons. Also that for dressage a bridle has to be used, and the frame that the horses are showing in the video wouldn't be classed as correct, as it is not the same result as from classical training (badly phrased but I hope you know what I mean!). I was merely and badly trying to put across that in the video the method shown might not be as amazing as it initially seems. I.e. you shouldn't need to use bridle to get horse to perform movements shown in the video, they come from legs and seat anyway, and once learnt the horse will perform from command. I.e. the rein back command is the legs sliding back not pulling on the reins. My mum's horse will respond to voice command which was taught to him as he would be talked to every day whilst doing things such as opening gates. As in "woah, step up, back back back, move over, walk on, woah, move over, back back back, good boy". I think the video actually demonstrates that the bit is only really used to maintain contact and the "on the bit" frame, of course when the training is done and correct this can be the case.

I also didn't miss the fact that the riders in the video had bridle's on originally. So schooling with a bit can't be that evil. But I can say that it does take a special kind of horse. Plenty I know would be fine, but a few I have sat on just wouldn't understand/the spend so much time arguing black is white that they would do what they want anyway.

Martingale yank was when a pheasant had jumped up underneath horse, probably headbutted his belly! He leapt up in air, span and peed off in opposite direction towards home. Horse was a serial napper after he learned he could on one occasion. a different story and one that ended well, he wasn't listening to me at all, last resort neck strap and he was shocked back to his senses. It was probably very uncomfortable for him, but I wasn't being taken home! I tried jumping him bareback once actually, it didn't end well, just kept cantering around the field and didn't feel like stopping. As he was slowing though, my mum shook a feed bucket to distract him and he stopped dead and span, as you can imagine, I went flying!


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## magic104 (2 January 2012)

Topaz Tiger said:



			It never fails to amaze me how rude some people can be to each other on this forum.
I can only presume it is caused by the detachment of writing this from behind a computer screen, because otherwise I dread to think what these people would be like in real life.
Magic is this how you speak to people face to face? 
"Do you people not read?"
PS. Its Reining, not reigning...... 

Click to expand...

Yes I am well known for being upfront.  And if you were here I would tell you that you are petty with your "PS. Its Reining, not reigning...... " As mis-typing, spelling errors litter this thread as they do on most posts.  "Do you people not read?" It is a valid question, considering people were asking the same question despite it being answered on the first post.  I will be at the stallion show at Addington in Feb, please feel free to continue the conversation.


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## Dotilas (2 January 2012)

magic104 said:



			All horses develope in the same way, their skelton development not maturing until they are about 6.  Enough horses have been cut up & dissected to disprove that TB's mature in their skelton any quicker then any other breed,.
		
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This isn't true with dog breeds though, which is why I think it must apply to horse breeds too. If horses were one species that had not been selectively into performance breeds then I think your point would be correct. I'm not convinced however.

Edit: Would love to read the results of this study, I will try and find it elsewhere.
http://www.journals.elsevierhealth.com/periodicals/livsci/article/S1871-1413(11)00230-7/abstract


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## Booboos (2 January 2012)

Pachamama said:



			If you're going to make a direct comparison between horses then perhaps you should do the same for the riders.
		
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 That is probably one of the ruddest comments on HHO at the moment and all because PS dared share her photos and training ideas with everyone. You should apologize to her.


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## Scarlett (2 January 2012)

Booboos said:



 That is probably one of the ruddest comments on HHO at the moment and all because PS dared share her photos and training ideas with everyone. You should apologize to her.
		
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It may be rude but there is a valid point to be made, it just could have been worded a bit better!


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## magic104 (2 January 2012)

Dotilas said:



			This isn't true with dog breeds though, which is why I think it must apply to horse breeds too. If horses were one species that had not been selectively into performance breeds then I think your point would be correct. I'm not convinced however.

Edit: Would love to read the results of this study, I will try and find it elsewhere.
http://www.journals.elsevierhealth.com/periodicals/livsci/article/S1871-1413(11)00230-7/abstract

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http://www.equinestudies.org/ranger_2008/ranger_piece_2008_pdf1.pdf there are others but I just dont have anymore time for this.  Also our yard owner has a son who is an equine vet, my own vets have also confirmed that the growth plates develope the same & it is the ones in the kneck, I believe by the withers that close last.  Also the horses mouth is also developing in that teeth are being replaced etc.  Therefore it is considered rightful thinking that horse are mature at about 6.  What you do with your horses is your business at the end of the day.  Just because others feel the need to point out that if this horse in particular is playing up on a regular basis that there MIGHT be an underlying problem, DOES not make their views any less worthy then the "Wow what a wonderful job you are doing" crowd.  He has had a training problem from his racing days, & so far he has been labelled as difficult, un-geniune etc.  There are people who are just sugesting there MIGHT be a reason.  I have repeated myself, because there are those that are just not getting it.  This horse might just not like being told what to do, it is possible, unlikely but possible.  Some horses are more sensitive & less forgiving.  Proof that some horses will put up with out cr$p http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opMiCyoRzYM&feature=share he is quiet a young horse & no he is not an English rider.


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## Dotilas (2 January 2012)

magic104 said:



http://www.equinestudies.org/ranger_2008/ranger_piece_2008_pdf1.pdf

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I have read that but I think it's fair to say it's a magazine article, and not really a scientific study. What I'm looking for more is a study across breeds and am interested in the rate in comparison between breeds. In fact the synopsis of the study I found does say that thoroughbreds mature physically  much faster than the other breeds in the study, that meaning the fusion of the growth plates etc in the bones. In the link you have posted though, it does say that development rate depends on size. 




			Proof that some horses will put up with out cr$p http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opMiCyoRzYM&feature=share he is quiet a young horse & no he is not an English rider.
		
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Apparently he is actually a stunt rider in a decathlon and is doing this for a laugh. If you look closely the only real "rough landing" is where the guy tries to make sure he doesn't have any babies for life!


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## Topaz Tiger (2 January 2012)

magic104 said:



			Yes I am well known for being upfront.  And if you were here I would tell you that you are petty with your "PS. Its Reining, not reigning...... " As mis-typing, spelling errors litter this thread as they do on most posts.  "Do you people not read?" It is a valid question, considering people were asking the same question despite it being answered on the first post.  I will be at the stallion show at Addington in Feb, please feel free to continue the conversation.
		
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I don't think there is anything wrong with being upfront, I am a fan of it in some degree myself, but I think you come across as very antagonistic, certainly in this thread anyway.  
I will pass on meeting you at the stallion show thanks, not sufficiently bothered either way......
As far as me being petty....... Well maybe I was...... But I was mildly amused, hence the smiley face, that you were proporting to be such an authority on things and yet didn't appear to be able to spell the name of the subject you appeared to have so much knowledge about..... 
Maybe if you read things back before you sent them, you would have the opportunity to correct spelling errors and perhaps realise that some of your comments might sound a little harsh......?


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## Pachamama (2 January 2012)

Booboos said:



 That is probably one of the ruddest comments on HHO at the moment and all because PS dared share her photos and training ideas with everyone. You should apologize to her.
		
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Rude? It was a statement of fact. PS is not in the same league as a rider or trainer as Carl Hester, so it is not accurate to suggest that her skills in training young horses are equal to his.  If you are comparing one of his horses to CS, then you HAVE to consider the pilot. Logical.
And I wasn't even responding to HER post.


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