# Anyone else finding it hard to sell puppies?? never had so many timewasters!!!



## GeorgieLee (28 August 2010)

Hi We have bred Miniature Pinchers for the last 5/6 years and have never had a problem selling them, we have deposits on them by 4 weeks,
This year is a different story, we are asking £250 LESS than normal to reflect the current climate (we advertised them at full price for 2 weeks) and we have two left and they are 15 weeks now.
The crazy thing is we hav sold them about 5 times!! people have rund and even come to see them, aranged a time to come and collect them and never appeared!! Im used to time wasters but this year they seem to be out in force!!


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## CorvusCorax (28 August 2010)

Nothing is selling - I know people with pups by last year's VA5 dog in Germany, who has a good chance at VA1 this year, started at £1200 and they're down to £450. 
I know the original price was stupid but it goes to show you can be selling some of the best bloodlines in the world and still not get it right - we're in bad times, it's one of the risks attached to breeding and always good to have homes lined up before selling.


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## GeorgieLee (28 August 2010)

Yep defo bad times, this was my mums last litter aswell so we could afford to have our 3 bitches spayed


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## rowy (28 August 2010)

some dogs are selling really quickly though! We are getting a new puppy- a cockapoo black and the black ones are selling like hot cakes! the more expensive teddy bear ones (cream) not so much though. 
At a yard where i am buying a new pony, they have just had a accident litter which is german shepard cross lurcher. they had 10 puppies :O i think they are gonna really struggle to find homes for all of them. besides do people know what lurcher x gs look like?


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## CorvusCorax (28 August 2010)

Selling like hotcakes, anyone would think you were talking about an inanimate object 
How much are you paying, out of interest? And how much more for a prettier colour?

A GSD lurcher can be quite striking and they can often have erect ears, but ten pups is a lot to think about homing, there is a user on here who has one but cannot remember her name for the life of me.
Unlike a lot of lurcher types which could find working homes, they are not an ideal combination of breeds for working.


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## FrodoBeutlin (28 August 2010)

But when people come and agree to buy a pup, don't you get a deposit?

We did not have any problems finding homes, in fact we now have a waiting list in case we decide to do another litter next year (!), but it *is* an extremely rare breed


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## Puppy (28 August 2010)

I could find homes for my Poplets ten times over, despite the fact I'm (1) not selling them, and (2), wouldn't even consider parting with them to anyone I didn't consider a good friend.


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## Sandstone1 (28 August 2010)

maybe, it should make people think twice about breeding when there are so many dogs in rescue already.


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## dozzie (28 August 2010)

Not sure what your breed association is like or if you are a member, but the good mastiff breeders ( My dog's breed)  advertise via word of mouth through the mastiff sclub or association. I went though the club to find my pup. So maybe worth ringing them to let them know you have some pups, as someone looking for a puppy may go to the breed society first.

That sounds confusing when i read it back!


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## CorvusCorax (28 August 2010)

Not as confusing as mine - I said 'homes lined up before selling' when I meant 'homes lined up before breeding'


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## MurphysMinder (28 August 2010)

CaveCanem said:



			Not as confusing as mine - I said 'homes lined up before selling' when I meant 'homes lined up before breeding' 

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I did think homes lined up before selling was kind of obvious   I think puppy sales are really suffering, people are reluctant to commit to extra expense.  Re the GSD x lurchers, I think you are right about them struggling.  Then again perhaps if they give them a fancy designer name they might have more luck.


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## rowy (28 August 2010)

CaveCanem said:



			Selling like hotcakes, anyone would think you were talking about an inanimate object 
How much are you paying, out of interest? And how much more for a prettier colour?

A GSD lurcher can be quite striking and they can often have erect ears, but ten pups is a lot to think about homing, there is a user on here who has one but cannot remember her name for the life of me.
Unlike a lot of lurcher types which could find working homes, they are not an ideal combination of breeds for working.
		
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Heehee sorry i have never used that phrase before and never realised how stupid it sounded  

I think it is £550 for black and about £700 for "teddy bear" but all the teddy bear ones have been sold now bar 1. 

Not to be crude and i totally am against this but could it be the kind of dogs in the fashion? I.e a few years ago it was chihuahuas.


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## CAYLA (28 August 2010)

This is what you have to think about when breeding I suppose, I would live in hope that epopel are learning a lesson, but they are not, because the silly made up untested named mongrels are selling at stupid prices bought by, well people who like the look of cute pups presumably, and the health tested dogs bred to a good standard "OP im assuming yours are" are not selling, and the lurcher x shepherds will I bet my life on it, end up in rescue when they beging to resemble a not so cute neither nowt nor summit.

I must say we never have issues rehoming rescue pups, we have 2 ten week old border terrier siblings and have had aabout 10 calls already and we never even told anyone they where in these puppies will go out fully vaxed, chipped, contracted for life with lifetime back up, insured and their neutering is also included when they are returned to us for less than half of what they would have been bought for.


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## CorvusCorax (28 August 2010)

Holy ****.

It's your money and all, but just to let you know, you're paying more for a crossbreed than someone paying for a dog with five generations of world class, health tested, proven, working-titled dogs behind them, all traceable and identifiable if there is any sort of health problems in the genes - out of a bitch imported from Germany, by the fifth best breed dog in the world.
Microchip, vaccs and insurance included.
But like I say, your money!


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## MurphysMinder (28 August 2010)

Those are expensive crossbreeds!  I just don't understand it I must admit.


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## CAYLA (28 August 2010)

CaveCanem said:



			Holy ****.

It's your money and all, but just to let you know, you're paying more for a crossbreed than someone paying for a dog with five generations of world class, health tested, proven, working-titled dogs behind them, all traceable and identifiable if there is any sort of health problems in the genes - out of a bitch imported from Germany, by the fifth best breed dog in the world.
Microchip, vaccs and insurance included.
But like I say, your money!
		
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I groomed a *poohchi* the other week and when I said "I can do you little x breed at such and such a time" she said it's stupid made up name im not repeating it pooh whatever, I said no missus its a bloody X breed, well of course she could not win an argument with me I gave her it back telling her it had the worst deformed gob I had ever seen and horrendous patellas, she said oh im sure it was well bred I asked where she bought it It was only the local bloody puppy mill and she paid £700 we had a puppy cavi in the rescue at the time and she was going mad for it and it was a well bred one, as she was handed in through tragic circumstance and came with a lot of paper work and proof of parental health tests, the donation for her was £150


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## rowy (28 August 2010)

lol cavecanem, what breed are yours? 
Even though they are just cross breeds, they are by a recognised breeder who specialises in breeding cocker spaniels/ cockapoos. We have seen mum and dad and they are all health checked etc. 
I think my parents like the fact they don't shed, are relativeluy energetic but not over the top which is ideal on our farm  Also less health issues that full breds. 
I feel so bad for the lurcher x GSD puppies! They are so cute and wouldn't like to think where they will be when they are older  hopefully in nice homes!


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## CAYLA (28 August 2010)

Who said they would not shed? half of what makes the X they are sheds, which means they can and will most probably shed, or have I got that wrong and you mentioned 2 non shedding breeds?

Also I would not think anybody who prides themselves on breeding a breed to a high standard would then go and X it with another random breed, most breeders would and are horrified at the breeds they specialise in being X with random others to make a "designer X breed"
There would also be no proof it would be any healthier or problem free than a pedigree infact it could  have the problems both breeds are suseptible too, no I would no believe the yarn they spin you in order to see the £££££.


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## CorvusCorax (28 August 2010)

German Shepherds. Mine were £300 each. 

There is no guarantee that your puppy will not shed. Your puppy is half cocker. Cockers shed, it may take the cocker coat.

There is also no guarantee that crossing breeds, eliminates health problems - ie if you breed as GSD to a JRT (for example!!!!) with no health tests you might end up with an epileptic dysplastic with haemophilia and slipping patellas.
Health checked? Do you know what hereditary diseases both breeds are prone to, and have they been TESTED for them?

I know plenty of 'recognised' breeders who 'specialise' in their breeds, doesn't mean I'd pay £700 for a puppy - Kennel Club Accredited is a paid for title!

But anyhoo, rant over, I wish you the very best with your pup, but I still think you are paying a very, very high price for him/her.

ETA Sorry to repeat/ x-post with Cayla


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## dingle12 (28 August 2010)

Its a shame people breed dogs then moan that they cannot get rid of them  far too many in rescue wanting home.


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## MurphysMinder (28 August 2010)

Friends of a friend had a genuine reason for wanting a labradoodle, child had serious allergy so wanted non moulting.  Unfortunately their much loved pup had the labrador coat and had to be rehomed   When you breed from purebred dogs there is no guarantee what you will get, in that the pup might inherit fathers movement and mothers temperaments when you want the other way round, but at least you know roughly what the pup will turn out like, with cross breeds it is anyones guess.  There was a thread a while ago with pics of labrador x springers, some looked very like labs, others were just like solid coloured springers,its a lottery.


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## MurphysMinder (28 August 2010)

dingle12 said:



			Its a shame people breed dogs then moan that they cannot get rid of them  far too many in rescue wanting home. 

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Whilst I agree with your sentiments,in fairness to the OP I doubt there will be many Min Pins in rescue.


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## FrodoBeutlin (28 August 2010)

Also, OP was complaining about timewasters.

CC, that's incredible about that litter. Oh if only I could get a fifth dog 

As for crossbreeds, I have never understood why people would want to pay for them (though I must admit in Italy I have never seen ads for crossbreeds *for sale*...it must be an Anglo-american 'fashion').


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## blackcob (28 August 2010)

I really, really do not understand the labradoodle thing - labs/goldens are great, poodles are great, one is guaranteed not to shed, the other sheds like a mad thing. If a non-shedding dog is definitely required, why take the 50/50 chance with a labradoodle when there are perfectly serviceable poodles available? 

Come on, they even come in three handy sizes to suit your house and lifestyle, it's not rocket science. 

The phrase 'teddy bear' is really irking me, going back on topic - if people want a £700 teddy bear they should get one from Merrythoughts, it won't shed and **** on the carpet like a real one.


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## rowy (28 August 2010)

oh , my sister was the one who chose them and said they dont shed? sorry my mistake. it will be my sisters puppy so its her choice. 2bh i did think it was expensive but looking around cockapoos are 600 + :O
also to health thing, i just assumed they were hardier cos when you cross horses they have fewer health issues, my bad! (i am mainly horsey person lol)
I have a lovely sheltie who is 8 this year who i love  so my sisters turn lol (she got fish when i got my sheltie )


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## CorvusCorax (28 August 2010)

FrodoBeutlin said:



			CC, that's incredible about that litter. Oh if only I could get a fifth dog 

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I thought the people were very foolish to bring the bitch over from Germany in whelp in this climate.

They are very, very, nice puppies and these people are newcomers to the breed and don't perhaps have the networks and did not source homes/do their homework, they got caught up in the idea of having a German imported bitch in whelp to a quite magnificent dog and thought the puppies would sell themselves.

They did start way too high, and yes, like the OP, they had a lot of timewasters, lots of people who asked to pay half this month, half next month etc, er, no.
Two longcoats were sold (they were on for a stupid price too) one has gone back to Germany, one is in partnership (swopped for a smaller breed pup, big mistake IMO!) one was sold to an elderly gentleman and they think they are going to run on three in the showring - lots of people struggle with two litter siblings, and they have been told, whether they will listen is another matter...don't know if they have learned anything from it, hey ho!
At least all the health tests are in place and the lineage is good, but it just goes to show....

ETA - Blackcob, I love a nice Standard Poodle too, can't see why people don't just go for a poodle myself!


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## FrodoBeutlin (28 August 2010)

Very sad  £1200 (1300--1500euro) is normal price for a GSD pup here! And I doubt parents would be that quality.


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## CorvusCorax (28 August 2010)

Yowsers! You'd only be looking that price for VA parents here, and even then I think that's ridiculous.


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## Stroppy_mare 73 (28 August 2010)

CaveCanem said:



			Holy ****.

It's your money and all, but just to let you know, you're paying more for a crossbreed than someone paying for a dog with five generations of world class, health tested, proven, working-titled dogs behind them, all traceable and identifiable if there is any sort of health problems in the genes - out of a bitch imported from Germany, by the fifth best breed dog in the world.
Microchip, vaccs and insurance included.
But like I say, your money!
		
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I agree!!  Crosses, for many generations will throw up all sorts, and that includes health issues..  You just do not know what you are getting, and usually for a large sum of money.

You also have to ask what are the breeders trying to achieve??  Do they show, compete in agility or obedience???? Are they striving to improve their "breed", produce winners in whatever sphere, produce healthy, sound and well tempered pets in a sensible and limited manner?

Personally I am a cow to buy a dog from   The whole family has to come & meet me & my guys, at least once before I will consider selling.  You can learn SO much from seeing the kids with their parents & how they interact with my dogs. Once I have agreed to let someone have a dog, they invariably go on the waiting list... For however long it takes.  Anything I sell, or re-home goes with contracts, legally binding, including such things as they always come back to me etc.  As I said, I am a cow! 

I always have a waiting list, but I do have a rarer breed, a very well known kennel & only breed occasionally. So perhaps it is a different situation for me?  I know of some folks who breed who are struggling to find homes.  Although luckily they've not had to suffer quite the level of rudeness that you seem to have!


someone is whinging for their bedtime Bonio..  Better got & attend!!


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## jasmine (28 August 2010)

I must admit with the shibas, we always have waiting lists.

What breed do you have Stroppy Mare ?


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## Stroppy_mare 73 (28 August 2010)

I have Hamiltonstovare Jasmine.  Also a couple of Irish Terriers & my rescue Rottie!

Who are all now happy after their Bonios!


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## soloabe (28 August 2010)

If you didn't already have homes for them they shouldn't have been bred in the first place!


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## Sanolly (29 August 2010)

With regards t the imported GSD bitch I actually think it's a really good idea, just perhaps the wrong time. The problem is that with the UK stock they have the really sloping back en which leads to all sorts of hip and leg problems which the European stock doesn't have, therefore if you were to import some more stock from the continent you could improve these problems.


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## CorvusCorax (29 August 2010)

Sanolly said:



			With regards t the imported GSD bitch I actually think it's a really good idea, just perhaps the wrong time. The problem is that with the UK stock they have the really sloping back en which leads to all sorts of hip and leg problems which the European stock doesn't have, therefore if you were to import some more stock from the continent you could improve these problems.
		
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People have been importing GSDs from the continent to the UK and Republic of Ireland since 1917  , it's not a new thing.
All of our own dogs since the 1980s have been out of at least one imported parent, if not both.
The hipscoring scheme in the UK, devised by Dr Malcolm Willis has been active since the 1970s.
There are problems with hips and elbows on the continent as well, and they have their own hip (and elbow) scoring system and have done so for decades.

Like in Germany, lots of breed enthusiasts here would like to see only health tested and titled dogs be allowed to breed and/or progress to the highest levels in showing, and for only puppies from health tested parents to be registered, but the UK Kennel Club will not enforce this.
They have been asked to by various breed delegations, over decades, but have not yet done so.


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## MurphysMinder (29 August 2010)

What she just said ^^^.  My bitches are all descended from mainly imported lines, it has been happening for decades.  The difference between the continent (particularly Germany) and the Uk is that the German dogs have to reach a certain standard  in health, construction and working ability before they can be bred from, whereas over here any 2 GSDs can be mated and the KC are happy to take the money for registrations.


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## Izzywizz (29 August 2010)

My last pup has just gone to her new home. I had 12 lab pups, out of my very beautiful bitch. I sold them very easily, with them all going to very lovely homes. People say that you can find homes before breeding, I had 6 people who said they might be interested in a before I put Izzy into pup. Not one of them bought a pup. It is quite difficult to know how many and what sex you are having to enable them to be homed before they are born.


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## CorvusCorax (29 August 2010)

PS Another obvious thought re importation - if they weren't imported from Germany, G(erman)SDs wouldn't exist in the UK at all


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## Ranyhyn (29 August 2010)

What is it with the "sloping back" comments, I mean I know I had excellent advisors but not one of the dogs I saw had that problem...


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## PerdixPerdix (29 August 2010)

argh tell me about, my mum struggled like hell to get rid of all her cockers this year, all with the best pedigrees you'd find, chipped docked and jabbed, the works. one guy put a deposit down and she never heard from him again and one brought his back because it didnt have a certain dog in the pedigree (uh out of the 60 or so FT champs and winners included)  and one guy called, confirmed he would be picking it up at so and so a time, and never showed, called to apologise and rearrange a date and still let her down.

we had an accidental mating between our one of our cockers and springers and found ourselves with 11 beauties, this march which all ended up going to friends and family for small sums of money. i couldnt be bothered with the rigmarole my mum had.
its been a sucky year for it.


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## GeorgieLee (29 August 2010)

Thanks for some of your support,
as has been said I was complaining about timewasters as we are fussy about what homes they go to, not just people thinking they want a 'handbag dog' or think they can be left at home all day whilst your at work, min pins love to be with you
and with regards to having homes for them before breeding they come in two different colours and we had people that said they would definately have one but various circumstances ment that they didnt, we have never had a problem selling them so didnt think it would be a problem this time
also if these two little boys dont find homes then we will keep them so its not a problem
so nobody needs to worry about there being a min pin rescue


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## PerdixPerdix (29 August 2010)

aww, i love min pins, my oh wont let me get a doberman yet.. i have a hpr waiting list, weimerarner, then gshp, then dalmatian then doberman (i know, the best picking up team ever)... and a min pin would be perfect to accompany my patterdale X, she is the ultimate handbag dog, (sleeps in bed with us and everything lol, shes 13 and my best friend)....
i'll be your min pin rescue lol!


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## Cinnamontoast (29 August 2010)

I just don't get the whole designer cross breed thing. Saying that, we met a cockapoo (what a truly stupid name) in the woods this morning and he was very cute-like a mini Tibetan Terrier and a lady I meet yesterday at a show told me she wanted one. They appear madly popular. 

To whomever said X breeds are hardier-not necessarily: you may just double up on the known breed problems from both sides. 

I'm amazed at man's constant striving for variety and change: I see that accidents can happen and there's nowt wrong with a mongrel, but I really don't get the whole designer thing.


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## PerdixPerdix (29 August 2010)

cinammontoast said:



			I just don't get the whole designer cross breed thing. Saying that, we met a cockapoo (what a truly stupid name) in the woods this morning and he was very cute-like a mini Tibetan Terrier and a lady I meet yesterday at a show told me she wanted one. They appear madly popular. 

To whomever said X breeds are hardier-not necessarily: you may just double up on the known breed problems from both sides. 

I'm amazed at man's constant striving for variety and change: I see that accidents can happen and there's nowt wrong with a mongrel, but I really don't get the whole designer thing.
		
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A. crossing breeds and developing them is the way we ended up with the dogs we have today.

B. by crossing two breeds ie, a cocker and a springer, you cancel out any strong congenitive defects and actually do succeed in making them a hardier dog. you can reduce the defects on both sides dramatically by crossing two pedigree breeds, this is all scientifically proven, and well known by most breeders.

C. what is it with all the desperation for a good pedigree anyway... a dog is nothing without sound guidance and consistent training. some of our best dogs are mongrels, our sprockers are outstanding, and if you took into account the parents pedigrees they would outclass many pedigree'd dogs anyhow.


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## weevil (29 August 2010)

FrodoBeutlin said:



			As for crossbreeds, I have never understood why people would want to pay for them
		
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I can. Many crossbreeds are lovely dogs and the cross is chosen carefully. My family always had "pure breed" dogs but now I am getting a cross-breed (shoot me now ). When I told my friend who is a vet what dog I was getting her first comment was "oh good, you shouldn't get too many health problems with that"
There is a lot of snobbery about what dogs people should get and I don't particularly like the designer crossbreeds but there is nothing wrong with a happy, healthy crossbreed dog. After all - how many people have crossbreed horses?


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## Cinnamontoast (29 August 2010)

newtothis said:



			A. crossing breeds and developing them is the way we ended up with the dogs we have today.

B. by crossing two breeds ie, a cocker and a springer, you cancel out any strong congenitive defects and actually do succeed in making them a hardier dog. you can reduce the defects on both sides dramatically by crossing two pedigree breeds, this is all scientifically proven, and well known by most breeders.

C. what is it with all the desperation for a good pedigree anyway... a dog is nothing without sound guidance and consistent training. some of our best dogs are mongrels, our sprockers are outstanding, and if you took into account the parents pedigrees they would outclass many pedigree'd dogs anyhow.
		
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A. Yes, thanks for the genetics reminder-more than aware of this: I didn't imagine that the varying breeds just evolved with no help!

B. Not necessarily (see 'Chorky' posts)

C. I couldn't really care about pedigrees/KC registration. My two original Springers are KC registered and were genetically screwed, frankly, no end of problems. I just happen to like the breed so I got more (from someone who has had one litter and is not a regular breeder).


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## FrodoBeutlin (29 August 2010)

weevil said:



			I can. Many crossbreeds are lovely dogs and the cross is chosen carefully. My family always had "pure breed" dogs but now I am getting a cross-breed (shoot me now ). When I told my friend who is a vet what dog I was getting her first comment was "oh good, you shouldn't get too many health problems with that"
There is a lot of snobbery about what dogs people should get and I don't particularly like the designer crossbreeds but there is nothing wrong with a happy, healthy crossbreed dog. After all - how many people have crossbreed horses?
		
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Do you really believe crosses are chosen carefully? Have you had a look at the website posted by Galupy?

I don't think the comparison with horses works, a modern warmblood is not a 'purebred' per se but will be the fruit of centuries of work on certain lines; this is what is missing from these crosses, nobody can have an idea what traits they'll inherit, what they'll look like or be like. I have a GSD x Golden Retriever cross, ten puppies in her litter, and I've met one of her sister who just couldn't be more different... Beezle looks like a GSD (ask CC or MM  ) while that sister of hers is a stunning 'black golden'. But how could people *pay* for this? How can you pay for something which is a total gamble? This is what I don't understand.


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## CorvusCorax (29 August 2010)

B. by crossing two breeds ie, a cocker and a springer, you cancel out any strong congenitive defects and actually do succeed in making them a hardier dog. you can reduce the defects on both sides dramatically by crossing two pedigree breeds, this is all scientifically proven, and well known by most breeders.

- Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't HD and ED present in both these breeds? So if you breed an untested cocker to an untested springer (likewise, breeding an untested GSD to an untested GSD), you could be doubling up on both.

ETA I have no problem with crossbreeds AT ALL. I have a problem with people charging stupid money for crossbreeds, and stupid money for ANY dog that has not been health tested before breeding.


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## SusieT (29 August 2010)

people will only charge what they can get. nobody is forcing anyone to buy these dogs.
There are many un health tested pedigrees out there.
There is a phenomena called hybrid vigour when crossing two lines. (only works with 1st generation though..)
All pedigrees started out because someone wanted to develop a trait, and are bred because they are a certain type. Many breeds in horses are crossed to try and include more traits. Same in chickens. j
B'YB exists in all types of dogs.
My thoughts in the matter. They have stupid names sometimes-yes. Am I worked up about it? No


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## CAYLA (29 August 2010)

I to have nothing against X breeds, I have a pack of 10 dogs and half are pedigree the other half mongrels, however I do have an issues with breeding them irrisponsibly and charging a stupid amount and claiming they are "healthier, stronger, dont shed, never get ill e,t,c, and I do not believe for one minute one bad gene cancels another, and I have seen proof, we get plenty of these stupid designer X breeds in the rescue and believe me they are not without health issues.
There is plenty of X breeds without pumping out more, Im also not to sure re cmaparing horses to dogs, their is alot more variation in dogs (shape wise) than horses, so you can get some seriously deformed crosses with horrendously deformed jaws by crossing with a breed, for example jackshits has anyone seen their jaw, I board 2 and there jaws are so bad they loose half of their food just tryng to chew it. 
I would hazard at a guess that horses also dont suffer as many breed related health issues as dogs.

Again I have nothing against X breeds, I would however never pay for a one, there is plenty out there in rescue and I would not want to encourage the random breeding of them, the only way I would part with money is for a proven health tested animal, and again thats unlikely for me


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## CorvusCorax (29 August 2010)

Maybe I am sensitive about the health testing issue, but my breed, which is relatively young, is suffering from the consequences of people leaving breeding, and what is lurking in the lines, to chance. 
It's not 'just one of those things' in many cases, these conditions, if not totally preventable, can be fought at least!
Not worth it to leave to chance IMO.

I do agree, the prices will stay high as long as people will pay them (see post of several months, Maltese Terrier bingo, buy an unregistered pup from the small ads in the paper for £1200! Wow!).

Re creation of new breeds - it's 2010, there are thousands of breeds of dog out there, or crosses thereof  is there really a dog to be created now, do we not all have some sort of dog for every purpose? I really don't think there is any purpose in creating new ones.
JMO 

PS this obsession for teacup sizes, breeding smaller and smaller, has led to dogs being born with deformed, shortened and even absent legs in the USA. Only a matter of time!!!


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## PerdixPerdix (29 August 2010)

crossed breeds show many less defects than any pedigree counterparts, ive had this conversation with my vet every time we have a new crossed litter. obviously there will be some defects that will still show up no matter how you breed, like eye colour in humans.

cross breeding is a gamble somewhat, because a pup can take either a dominant or a recessive trait, as with humans and other animals. you only have to breed a smooth hair terrier with a rough hair to show that you'll probably end up with a mixed batch, or strike it lucky and get what you wanted. ive bred our black and white cocker with our black and white springer and got lemon and white puppies that noone will believe are sprockers, some carry his short legs and some are massive like their mother, some litters have been almost identical. the key is getting it all right. 

labradoodles mostly dont shed, we see alot of them in the feild now, they seem to be a preferred working dog for part timers and none i have met shed hair, so going from experience id say that is a crossbreeding success for anyone who is allergic to pet hair but would like a dog, possibly to work, other than a standard poodle.

with the recent uproar concerning inbreeding pedigree dogs surrounding the KC and crufts, i would have thought more people would be behind introducing more fresh blood into the breeds that desperately need it.

ill also stand by that i do not agree that every kennel club registered dog is 100% legit, its all too easy to fake documents and pass a sire and a bitch off to be someone they are not, especially if said bitch or sire has awful hip/eye scores, all you need is a similar dog to fit the pedigree description. though its a terrible thing to do, it does happen and Kc need to implement better prevention methods regarding fraud.


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## PerdixPerdix (29 August 2010)

obviously im talking about correct and responsible crossing between well matched breeds. none of this chihuhuaXcocker rubbish.

and cavecanem testing is an extremely important thing to me too, breeding good, strong working dogs is important to me and i want the best i can get from my dogs, health is paramount.


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## CorvusCorax (29 August 2010)

When DNA testing came in for us, certain people had a lot of housekeeping to do NTT!

We have quite a large genepool considering the breed is so young and I wish certain people would utilise that fact...but not interbreed with Malis, as has been suggested in the past 

PS There's a standard Poodle doing Schutzhund in England, they're much smarter than people give them credit for!


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## CAYLA (29 August 2010)

See this is peobably where some agree to disagree because I can say the main reason labradoodles are hande into our rescue and the ones we work close with are 

1, They where told they would not shed and they did
2, They where too high energy

The most recent labradoodle we had was 6 moths old, someone also mentioned in one of the other posts someone they knew rehomed one because it was shedding.


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## CorvusCorax (29 August 2010)

Twiglet on here has a shedding 'Doodle. I think, like my fella, he has allergy/sensitivity problems - I can look at my fella's pedigree, knowing what I know now, and that say linebreeding on a certain dog or dogs is the likely cause - all recorded for posterity for future breeders and purchasers to look out for/avoid - but a first gen cross of two completely different breeds can also suffer health problems like the purebreeds do.


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## PerdixPerdix (29 August 2010)

cavecanem i have a freind who picks up on a shoot with two standards, they are very intelligent dogs, something you cant train into a dog. he put one over his springer and the big chocolate results went for over £800 a pop can you believe, why? i have no idea.

my dream is to own a picking up team consisting of different HPRs and hounds. hopefulling beginning with a weimy pup next year. so im all for bringing different breeds into the field, josh lewsey  the rugby player has two trained boxers he picks up with and ive seen alsatians in the beat line also.


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## MurphysMinder (29 August 2010)

Whilst I agree that pedigrees etc can be and are faked, when presenting a dog for hip and elbow scoring, and presumably other health tests, the vets now check for identification, be it a microchip or tattoo number and enter it on the form, which should tie up with details on registration certificate, so its a start.
It was me who mentioned the shedding labradoodle Cayla, and CC I am pretty sure there is a Standard Poodle doing WT as well .


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## CorvusCorax (29 August 2010)

Ah, apologies to the OP, weekend threads about breeding so often seem to go off on a mahoosive tangent and I'm one of the people at fault, as usual   
If anything else, perhaps all the views this thread has generated will help you get good homes for your MinPins!!!


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## PerdixPerdix (29 August 2010)

cayla this is where problems arise, when working blood is introduced. alot of people cannot cope with the amount of energy working lines have, and need to burn off.
my partners friend deals in rehoming unwanted dogs and he's often got a bang on springer or lab with no faults other than it wants to work, and often inexperienced people cant handle that, they expect one walk round the block to satisfy its needs, well i can tell you from experience lack of exersize can drive a dog mad. we have recieved a springer through this and apart from running on too much, she is excellent, and its a pity she had to go through all the upheaval to finally find an understanding owner.


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## Pacey (29 August 2010)

Maybe this will be the beginning of people breeding less, as let's face it, so many end up in rescue anyway...


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## CorvusCorax (29 August 2010)

newtothis said:



			cayla this is where problems arise, when working blood is introduced. alot of people cannot cope with the amount of energy working lines have, and need to burn off.
my partners friend deals in rehoming unwanted dogs and he's often got a bang on springer or lab with no faults other than it wants to work, and often inexperienced people cant handle that, they expect one walk round the block to satisfy its needs, well i can tell you from experience lack of exersize can drive a dog mad. we have recieved a springer through this and apart from running on too much, she is excellent, and its a pity she had to go through all the upheaval to finally find an understanding owner.
		
Click to expand...

Just heard of a nine-month-old PTS for irreparable damage caused by hurling herself against the sides of her kennel - she basically had a bimble in the garden every day and nothing else but was from quite a high-octane sire line    breed research and indeed line research goes a long way.
They kept saying she was 'mad' and laughed...yeah, you made her that way


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## CAYLA (29 August 2010)

Lol funny you write that cos I was going to say, I have no issues with dogs bred for working purpose but surely the whole litters are not kept as workers and some will go to family homes and because of the energy levels and there inability to deal with it, they are ending up in rescue.
The most common breeds of dog we get into rescue are

Labradors
Cockers
Springers

All very young, we rarely get an aged one of these breeds in and all because they where chewing, hyper, barking and all the usual rubbish, we rarely place them back into pet homes and we send them all to the prison service.
I recently rehomed a whole litter of working cockers, handed in a t 7 weeks.

I simply have issues with over breeding to be honest be it pedigree or X breed, but the untested varieties are def worse IMO breeders not offering back up (yes I know they are the back street variety) but its the back street variety breeds these designer crosses.
I always go off track, I cannot even remember what I was talking about


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## PerdixPerdix (29 August 2010)

oh god cavecanem that is hideous, poor thing.

when we get first timers interested in a puppy (i rarely sell to non working homes anyway) i'll take them around to the kennel and let them watch the pack have a mad run for a while, then gently explain that this is on top of the 8 hours they have been tearing about the countryside at work, and that maybe a working breed isnt the choice for them. and if that doesnt work they meet the spaniel that kennel walks constantly, because his previous owners left him in a shed, and i explain thats what will end up if they dont look after their pup properly, serious and deeply damaging pschological problems.


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## PerdixPerdix (29 August 2010)

cayla that doesnt surprise me, there are dedicated working rescues across the country now, but they are struggling too. the problem is, lab and span pups are so goddamn cute, and when properly trained, are the ideal for any family on first look, but getting through spaniel teenagerdom (as i am experiencing at the moment) is a tear your hair out period, and thats when people get second thoughts and are too quick to throw the towel. fingers crossed this one, who is 6 months (and i have him sitting, staying, quartering-ish, and working closely all to signals, just through playing in the garden, hes a good one) will end up like his mum, works like crazy but a totally different dog when she finds something cosy to snuggle on.

lol, i could talk about dogs all day, youd think after spending most of the day with them, id have something better to talk about!


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## CorvusCorax (29 August 2010)

newtothis said:



			lol, i could talk about dogs all day, youd think after spending most of the day with them, id have something better to talk about!
		
Click to expand...

Indeed, I think we all need help 
I think you've settled in just fine!


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## prosefullstop (29 August 2010)

Two things.

My vet has a rescued Goldendoodle. Why? Because the dog sheds like crazy, and the previous owners did not want it.

Cross-breeds are not necessarily healthier. My sister-in-law's dog--a mix of at least three different breeds--has ligament trouble in her hind legs as well as a bowed knee, the knee being present at birth. During my time volunteering with rescue, I lost count of the number of Pit mixed with severe skin allergies.


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## CAYLA (29 August 2010)

CaveCanem said:



			Indeed, I think we all need help 
I think you've settled in just fine!
		
Click to expand...



Speak for yourselves, u will rarely hear me talking about dogs, my main hobbing is knitting, im just off to the AAK forum now


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## GeorgieLee (29 August 2010)

Thanks for all your replys, even if it did turn into a debate!!!!
my mum is still advertising them for £350 because she is worried about people calling just because they are cheap, but if anyone knows of a GENUINE good loving home then I know she would take less
I am not using this to advertise I just want to find loving homes for our babys!


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## Starbucks (30 August 2010)

Personally, don't give a toss if a dog is pedigree or mongral, if it's a nice dog it's a nice dog!

Also, how things currently are I don't think I would buy any puppy, because there are too many dogs needing homes with people like Cayla.


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## MurphysMinder (30 August 2010)

Re the working dogs to pet homes thing, I have mentioned before my friends GSD.  Although he is out of a show line bitch his sire was a working dog, and he has a very high drive.  She wanted him to do Working Trials and is very experienced (40 years in the breed) but there have been times when she has been near to giving up with him.  She got there in the end and he is now working at TD level, however, none of his litter mates went to working homes, and I know of at least one that was pts as its owners couldn't cope with it.  I think breeders do need to be aware when breeding working dogs that it is highly unlikely the whole litter will end up doing the job they are bred for, and that is when problems start.


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## Stroppy_mare 73 (30 August 2010)

Really interesting discussion! 
So right that people have to understand the breed they are proposing to take on.  That's one possible advantage of pedigrees, as you should be able to learn what they are like.

Every breed has its own quirks, traits, growing phases etc.  It is down to a responsible breeder to ensure that potential owners are aware of everything. As well as being prepared to take the "rough with the smooth" as the pup grows up and put the work in that every dog needs/deserves.

Sadly too often that does not happen

With my breed, hounds, so many people sell them to totally unsuitable homes. I have had no end of phone calls from people who have got one, and then can't cope with the fact that they cannot let them off the lead safely, etc.  They obviously had no idea about the breed they were taking on, or how to work to overcome these issues.  Or understand that with some hounds you will never achieve safe off the lead work. And people then introduce bloodlines that they have not researched and do not understand that using a true working dog will lead to different issues with regards to the temperament of the dogs! That is the end of the rant!!  Will get off my soap box now


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