# Grey gene in appaloosas



## zoon (6 July 2010)

Being a bit of a genetics dunce, I really struggle with appy colours.  Looked fr a spotted youngster at the mo and came across this fella - 
http://www.horsehunter.co.uk/AWESOME-APPALOOSA-p-76388.htm

very unusual colouring - is he likely to stay that way, or is there any way to tell other than dna testing if he is likely to grey out?


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## rowy (6 July 2010)

I dont think he would lose his spots but his coat probably will go more and more white and more spots will appear- will prob go more nr leopard spotted later on rather than blanket as his coat looks speckledy. 
I have a nr leopard spotted 3 year old, i bought him when he was 2 1/2 and his face was dark bay then and now it is going really speckledy and white so i expect he will look more leopard spotted when he is older 
I think you can get a DNA test, it depends if him greying out bothers you.


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## zoon (6 July 2010)

So its just the "background colour" that goes grey?  The spots remain?


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## rowy (6 July 2010)

yes. 
In some leopard spotted horses with a grey parent, their spots can fade but this horse is only blanket so i think its spots wont fade, but i may be wrong.....


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## dany (6 July 2010)

I would have thought everything would grey, as its a modifier to the base coat. I think Appy's are just as suseptable as any other colour, although it would still need to have a grey parent and I cant imagine there would be many breeders breeding for the colour that would use a grey intentionally. Although If I were to buy a few spot, id prolly have it colour tested to make sure, as im sure people must have been tricked in the past.

Id be interested in the answer....... i love colour genetics


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## flaxen (6 July 2010)

"I think Appy's are just as suseptable as any other colour, although it would still need to have a grey parent and I cant imagine there would be many breeders breeding for the colour that would use a grey intentionally."

Just because an appaloosa has 1 grey parent does not guarantee that it will turn grey. I myself have a flea bitten grey arab who has a near leopard appaloosa foal at foot - at present he isnt showing any signs of going grey and his mum was put to an appalossa on purpose. My mares family are split between grey on one side and chestnut on the other so I could get a grey or chestnut or he could keep his spots. Any one breeding from a grey has a chance of getting a grey but thats the risk you take.

Also my friend who owns the stallion that I used has bred a loepard colt this year out of a fgrey mare whose sire is also grey and the foal has tested negative for grey.


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## FMM (6 July 2010)

I believe he is likely to stay the same colour - he is blanket spotted and that will remain and I suspect the solid colour will stay pretty much the same as well. He is not "blue" and that is the colour that tends to fade over time.


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## whirlwindhorses (6 July 2010)

His Spots will not fade, but the rest of his body might varnish in time, but it could be many years. Here is a 12 year old Pure App mare who looks slightly roan during coat change times but the rest of the year is brown (she is not a buckskin but sometimes looks like one!). Grey Apps that i have seen (partbreds) tend to have black looking spots as yearling and then gradually going fainter as the years pass to eventually just looking white. If you find out the name of that youngsters dam and her breeding then probably KarynK will be able to tell you if there is grey in that bloodline. The sire is not grey.


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## KarynK (6 July 2010)

It's really important to draw the distinction that what happens in Appaloosas is not grey and however fast or slow it happens it does not affect the spots.  I call it Varnish as that is what it does, others call it roan but since there is already a true roan that does not fade I find its use with Appaloosas misleading and confusing.  

As Whirlwind says there is no grey in Apollo, this one's sire, who is a black Leopard spot.  I am not sure if he was born a Leopard or he might have been a near leopard and varnished out. He, he is actually from the line of TB Secretariat, US Triple Crown Winner,  whose test mare was an Appaloosa.  He has a page on the ApHC UK website where you can see some pictures of him and some of his foals.

From the progeny I have seen he does throw the varnish, but the rapidity of it will depend on what this ones other parent is and how rapid a varnish Apollo himself throws, some are really fast and others fade only when they are much older like the mare above, but the dark spots in that horses coat will probably stay as spots with the rest fading slowly.

An Appaloosa that has grey will do what all greys do, spots and all will fade to white, though this process does seem to take longer than in some solid's that go grey.   The trouble is that it is sometimes very difficult to tell exactly what colour genes are behind an appaloosa and sometimes testing (if available) is the only way you can really tell as all the normal visual clues are all hidden!!!!


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## belambi (12 July 2010)

Interesting thread. 

In Australia we do not accept grey breeding into either the Appaloosa or sportaloosa studbook.. USA do..


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## Pendragon (12 July 2010)

There is no grey in this horse shown above. It is the varnish roan factor working.
I guess this two year old horse will show more and more varnish with years to come as the mane changed its colour nearly completely already. The spots will stay and only time can tell if there are more spots to be shown, when the horse colours out in front.


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## zoon (13 July 2010)

Ok, another question then...
Same stallion, but different mare.  Mare is an appaloosa and has the varnish effect that you are talking about.  She is 15 and looks chesnut roan all over with spots on her bum (no blanket though).  Foal is a bay blanket spot; can be seen in last pic on this advert for one of the fillies.
http://www.horsedeals.co.uk/horses-for-sale/appaloosa/SIMPLY-STUNNING__24-6-10-592295

Is he likely to varnish?  Losing his foal coat now and he is much darker and has no light hairs in his coat.  Blanket has a very clear border.  Can ask breeder about mares bloodlines if that helps

sorry if my questions are stupid, but genetics isn't my strong point!


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## KarynK (13 July 2010)

I would say yes he will but how fast that happens who knows, but if mum has it as well then possibly faster?  He is a near leopard and when they have white forward of the shoulders the coat colour on the neck changes considerably in their yearling moult.  The legs usually take much longer to fade, but it will not affect the spots and a trace of the colour usually remains for a few years, so I would guess that at 3-4 years he will be a very near leopard.

I have a blanket spot filly who's father varnished himself quite rapidly, but she is changing very slowly compared to her half sister who had much more white about her, she is the one in my picture album on my profile.

There are some appaloosas without the varnish, the picture of Geneo JJ on the horse walker is when he was in his teens I think.
http://www.equinehits.com/horses-for-sale/horse-112123

I wouldn't worry Appaloosa genetics are nobodys strong point!!!


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## zoon (13 July 2010)

Are you looking at the right pic karynK?  He is not the foal in the main advert pic, but is the one in the last pic on that advert.  Here is another pic of him yesterday, I thought he was a blanket spot - 







You can see mum in the background.  I don't fancy him going a similar colour to mum, but if the coat will fade to white and reveal more spots, that'd be ok.  Spots def don't fade?


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## KarynK (13 July 2010)

Oh yes wrong one!   Cant see close up in the pictire but what you need to look for is a spattering of white hairs in the coat from the foal change of coat, That usually indicates that they are going to do something at some stage, be it at the yearling stage or later in life.

The thing is that the pigment is not fixed in appaloosas, so more mottling of the skin can appear through their life and that is what gives you the coat pattern/spots and indeed it can also move them!!  So it is often difficult to tell if they will fade to a loud leopard or white where the coat is.  But this one does look like it will turn leopard if it does loose some of the coat colour, but no concrete guarantees!  WIll post some pics later to illustrate.


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## Retrospectiv (14 July 2010)

It's the Lp gene that's responsible for the appaloosa chacteristics and also for the traditional varnish roaning that many apps acquire.

Really no way to tell wether the bay colt with the blanket will roan at all, but looking at his dam I'd venture a yes. She appears to have the outline of a small blanket so she may have had a solid body like the colt at one time prior to roaning.

I've had apps for 28+ years and have seen some crazy color changes.
Not sure if it's allowed (my appologies if so) but here's a thread I started to show just how dramatically Lp varnish roaning can change a horse's color over the course of a lifetime.

http://www.horsegroomingsupplies.com/horse-forums/black-and-the-lp-gene-343419.html

In the 5th photo down, you'll see the gelding featured in the photos with another appaloosa gelding. He was very much like the colt in question here as a young horse. Solid bay body with just the big white blanket with spots. He was in his teens in the photo and you can see the progression of his varnish roaning


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## LazyS (14 July 2010)

Retrospectiv said:



			It's the Lp gene that's responsible for the appaloosa chacteristics and also for the traditional varnish roaning that many apps acquire.

Really no way to tell wether the bay colt with the blanket will roan at all, but looking at his dam I'd venture a yes. She appears to have the outline of a small blanket so she may have had a solid body like the colt at one time prior to roaning.

I've had apps for 28+ years and have seen some crazy color changes.
Not sure if it's allowed (my appologies if so) but here's a thread I started to show just how dramatically Lp varnish roaning can change a horse's color over the course of a lifetime.

http://www.horsegroomingsupplies.com/horse-forums/black-and-the-lp-gene-343419.html

In the 5th photo down, you'll see the gelding featured in the photos with another appaloosa gelding. He was very much like the colt in question here as a young horse. Solid bay body with just the big white blanket with spots. He was in his teens in the photo and you can see the progression of his varnish roaning 

Click to expand...

Of course its allowed and very interesting it is too! I was interested to see the pics of the youngster in question as he appeared in our breed society newsletter last year having been shown as a yearling at the ApHC UK national breed show and forward of the blanket looked pretty SOLID. Think his dam is thoroughbred, could be wrong. Dad is defo a leopard, with no grey gene (tested). 
If anyone is interested in seeing the miriade of colours of appaloosas the Appaloosa Horse Club UK breed show is at Moreton Morrell, Warwickshire College, over the weekend of the 7th and 8th August, spectators very welcome. In hand on the Saturday and performance/ridden (including western and dressage) on the Sunday. Oh on Saturday evening there is the Heritage Class where the horses are dressed in authentic native American indian dress - and there is an American judge flown over specially to judge the show (there is an English judge too).


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