# KWPN Reg B Papers



## jeanette10 (9 July 2008)

This is really my first posting within this forum, been more a lurker than a poster, but I have a question which I hope some forum members may be able to answer for me.

Can I ask why horses would be registered under KWPN Registration B Papers?

I spoke with someone who told me that the KWPN dont allow the Register B horses to enter any show or grading classes in Holland, and that this is also going to be the case in the UK soon?

So does that make a Registration B horse quite worthless with regards to having their passport and papers in this way?  Would people just assume that if it has KWPN papers and passport that it would/should be good no matter which part of the studbook it is actually in?

Sorry for all the questions but I was looking at a foal recently and although it says it will have KWPN passport and papers, it will only be Register B.  And because I want the foal to breed from potentially I am wondering if it is worth the money the person is asking for it, when at a later stage it may not mean anything as it is Register B and may be seen in a lessor light if I was to try and then grade it with a UK society.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.


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## kumala (9 July 2008)

I think i would be looking for a foal that is eligable for full kwpn papers, unless the foal you have looked at is extra specially nice. Especially if you may want to breed from her in the future. I have a foal that is eligable for reg B papers but will not bother taking her to the kwpn gradings this year as i personally don't think reg B papers would hold much value.


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## volatis (9 July 2008)

B papers are in effect a certificate of pedigree, but the parents grading status is not sufficient to allow main stud book papers. So you do get a verified parentage document and legal passport but if the horse is to be graded with one of the main warmblood stud books in the future, then you might have a problem getting it graded into their main stud book.

Sporthorse (vs warmblood) registries such as the SHB are more likely to grade on the horse in front of them and less on the papers. But the likes of Hannoverian or KWPN need to see graded parents.


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## Damien (9 July 2008)

This is my take on it, The KWPN are an open studbook, this means that they allow outside blood to be brought into the studbook but remain selective and offer guidance as to which animals they feel should be used as breeding stock in order to allow the studbook to progress

To be brief, The KWPN by law must register animals that fit the citeria outlined in their studbook (in this instance sport horses) just as all EU studbooks must do.

Lets stick to RP - Riding horse for the moment. The KWPN have three tiers, KWPN VB for progeny by approved stallions.

Reg A for progeny by approved stallions with one of the WBSHF studbooks that they accept/recognise that meet the other requirements as outlined in their studbook e.g x-rays , eye test, fertility and wind.

and Reg B for all other progeny sired by EU member state stallions that are approved that a) are not WBSHF member studbooks or b) by a stallion that has no approval or c)  WBSHF studbook approved stallions that the KWPN do not wish to recognise. (I suspect however on occassion they could be legally challenged but that is another debate)

The mares passport status with a particular studbook also comes into consideration with the KWPN hence the reason so many British breeders are alarmed to discover that their KWPN sired foal is only ellegible for B papers, but this is currently being revised but have yet to have a response on the decision taken regarding a number of British passported and other EU member state passported mares. - For example if you were to breed a fully approved KWPN stallion to a mare registered graded and passported with a number  of the British studbooks that they do not recognise, the foal would also receive B papers. Hence the reason it is being revised as can be interpreted as undermining the quality of British mares and discouarging mare owners from using KWPN stallions on those mares. (Always do your homework if paperwork is that important to you before you breed to a KWPN stallion and wish to register the foal with the KWPN)

However curently the KWPN recognise that as they need to cater for the British stallion and mare base in order to expand and increase their membership reg B foals can be presented at Keurings in the UK and assessed on their own merit. This makes a great deal of sense. - When they will cease to allow Reg B foals to be presented will be dependant I should think on how quickly the membership in the UK grows and whetehr or not the quality of the foals presented diminshes the value of its breeding goals or adds to the value of its breeding goals. 

Fundementally the philosphy of the KWPN is to encourage its members to use primarily KWPN stallions and selected mares which makes sense as they want to be promoting and supporting their own breeding objectives.

With regards to Reg B papers here in the UK, France, Belgium, and other EU countries, studbooks do not always differentiate bewteen the three tiers, VB, A and B. In Holland yes, as a reg B foal cannot be presented at the Keurings nor can they go forwards for stallion selection. However there are a number of breeders in Holland that do breed from non approved stallions and choose to register the progeny reg B often whilst the stallion is competing and which may be presented at a later stage for approval, yes it happens in Holland too!

However  the B registration of a colt will not prevent it from being assessed on its own merit in the UK with the majority of the UK studbooks, so unless you plan on purchasing a colt with the objective of sending it to Holland to be licensed at the age of two, the reg B status bares no influnce on the animal as a future breeding stallion in the UK and likewise with mares that are presented for Grading but it is always advisable to check with the studbook of choice first as rules vary.

The purchase of any animal IMO should always be based on the quality of the animal that stands before them, as papers can't jump, can't do dressage and can't event.  - So in my opinion no they are not worthless although many would like to portray that as the case in order to undermine the quality and choices that some breeders make.

If the horse in question is to be used as a breeding prospect in the future then allow it to be assessed on its own merit at a UK Grading be it a British or a Foreign inspection, which if residing in the UK is likely to be the case. The reg A or reg B status will not change the animlas value if the animal is of outstanding quality. The market will always decide.


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## Wisnette (9 July 2008)

Just to confirm things - in an effort to be a bit more 'inclusive' the KWPN DO allow Register B horses to be presented in keurings in the UK HOWEVER, they will absolutely not permit any Register B mare to be 'upgraded' into the Studbook however good she is.  Register B mares can take part only to receive advice from the KWPN judges and I think this situation is highly unlikely to change now or in the future.

The second point is up until this year, the KWPN did in fact allow horses registered in the likes of the SSH, AES, SHB(GB), BWBS (i.e. EU approved studbook that are NOT on the KWPN's rcognised list) to be presented at the keuring and if they passed the criteria, they were 'graded' and inscribed in the Studbook.  This year, that has changed and those horses (like the Reg B ones) can now only take part to receive advice from the judges.  This is a new rule brought in this year so I think its also highly unlikely that they will change things and accept these mares again now or in the future.

The one thing I really don't agree with Opie is the view that the KWPN's philosophy is "to encourage its members to use primarily KWPN stallions and selected mares".  I think that is a British view of the role of a studbook and not what the KWPN is about. I genuinely think the KWPN exists to help its members breed the best quality foals possible.  Nothing more, nothing less.  The grading criteria for mares is actually quite low - if you read anything or talk to anyone from the KWPN they will tell you that the breeder selects the mare and chooses whether she is worthy to breed from.  The KWPN's role is to assist the breeder in the objective appraisal of the mare and collect and publish sufficient information on its stallions to enable the breeder to select the most suitable stallion for their mare.  If you want you can use a stallion approved by say Hann, OLD etc and you won't get particularly penalised (foal will be Reg A and can still be graded). 

Anyway back to the OP's original question...  Would I buy a Reg B foal as a breeding prospect?  If she was a filly, probably not, purely bacause I specifically breed KWPN horses, and going to gradings and chasing predicates is important to me.  HOWEVER, that does not mean that this foal won't grow up to be a great broodmare.  If you are only interested in breeding quality foals and aren't bothered about jumping through studbook hoops, the she may be a good buy.  One thing to bear in mind - even though she is register B, if she is by a KWPN approved stallion and you cover her by another KWPN approved stallion, her foal will be eligible for 'full' foalbook papers.  It takes a generation but if its important to you, you can get there in the end...


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## Damien (9 July 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
 Opie, I think your post is not quite fully accurate. 

[/ QUOTE ] 

Or perhaps your interpretation differs from what I have implied but will happily try to clarify if it has been open to misinterpretation.  
	
	
		
		
	


	





[ QUOTE ]
 In an effort to be a bit more 'inclusive' the KWPN DO allow Register B horses to be presented in keurings in the UK HOWEVER, they will absolutely not permit any Register B mare to be 'upgraded' into the Studbook however good she is.  Register B mares can take part only to receive advice from the KWPN judges and I think this situation is highly unlikely to change now or in the future. 

[/ QUOTE ] 

I haven't written anything to the contrary and am familiar with that element of the studbook rules......   
	
	
		
		
	


	




 but agree, as some of us are aware, from a political stand point the quantity of foal registrations are a very important part of any WBSHF member studbook, so agree it is unlikely to discontinue, as all foal registrations count in the greater scheme of WBFSH voting rights.

[ QUOTE ]
The grading criteria for mares is actually quite low - if you read anything or talk to anyone from the KWPN they will tell you that the breeder selects the mare and chooses whether she is worthy to breed from. 

[/ QUOTE ] - I read and converse frequently and have done for many years 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[ QUOTE ]
The KWPN's role is to assist the breeder in the objective appraisal of the mare and collect and publish sufficient information on its stallions to enable the breeder to select the most suitable stallion for their mare. 

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Its ok to disagree however I have very good reason to as have read the KWPN's "proposed" license agreement and it repeatedly highlight the wording "to promote KWPN horses" and to promote KWPN stallions..   
	
	
		
		
	


	




 hence the reason my outlook is somewhat different from perhaps yours.  
	
	
		
		
	


	









- indeed but only within the parimeters outlined in the studbook guidelines, if breeders choose to step out with those parameters they *will be*  penalised for it) but agree that is the primary role of, I would like to think, all studbooks and again have not said anything to the contrary, as stated in the opening paragraph the KWPN is an "open studbook", but one cannot argue that fundamentally all EU studbooks  select a number of stallions each year in an attempt to offer "guidance" to its breeders. 

If they, along with the majority of EU studbooks were not interested in encouraging breeders to recognise their own stallions as being what they consider to fit "their ideal criteria" then there would be no stallion selection process at all. So yes freedom of choice exists but again only within their fixed perimeters.

[ QUOTE ]
 If you want you can use a stallion approved by say Hann, OLD etc and you won't get particularly penalised (foal will be Reg A and can still be graded). 

[/ QUOTE ]

Indeed, but breeders will be be penalised if they choose to breed one of "the forementioned stallions"  to a mare passported outwith the KWPN's "accepted" studbooks... or breed from a stallion that falls out with their "accepted studbooks" despite having a breeding license in place or being a "graded mare with an "outside recognised studbook" and this applies to a large number of reputable EU studbooks, smaller perhaps but also comendable.

[ QUOTE ]
you won't get particularly penalised

[/ QUOTE ] 

I'm glad we agree, breeders just need to be sure to breed from the animals both male and female that fall within there "catchment" area.

As with all studbooks, guidelines are in place to offer assistance and guidance, some studbooks have greater restrictions in place than others but fundamentally a breeder that chooses to breed outwith those guidelines and accepted rules will not be awarded the same benefits and that stands for the majority of studbooks. 

This from my own perspective instantaneously places restrictions on a breeders freedom of choice and immediately closes doors and therefore not as "Open" as it would like to portray.


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## jeanette10 (10 July 2008)

Thank you to everyone who posted, it made very interesting reading.

So reading through all the information, basically I take from this that KWPN Reg B papers are in reality pretty worthless if you are seriously looking at the breeding aspect (which I am wishing to do).   I dont want to purchase something that will hold no worth with some societies as my main aim is to produce something worth breeding.

 [ QUOTE ]
The second point is up until this year, the KWPN did in fact allow horses registered in the likes of the SSH, AES, SHB(GB), BWBS (i.e. EU approved studbook that are NOT on the KWPN's rcognised list) to be presented at the keuring and if they passed the criteria, they were 'graded' and inscribed in the Studbook. This year, that has changed and those horses (like the Reg B ones) can now only take part to receive advice from the judges. This is a new rule brought in this year so I think its also highly unlikely that they will change things and accept these mares again now or in the future.


[/ QUOTE ] 

Then on top of that you are basically saying that the KWPN think that any British Studbook and its stallions, mares and offspring are not worthy of being judged through their system, only "looked at".

So what happens then if you have a mare by a KWPN stallion, use a KWPN stallion but decide to have it registered with a UK Studbook....basically the KWPN would still say that this is not good enough for them??

Opie I went on your website this morning and must say you have some nice foals (although I am not the biggest fan of coloureds.. 
	
	
		
		
	


	




).  However, I noticed that your stallions are graded with the scottish sports horse but you also register your foals with the KWPN, so does this mean that you feel the KWPN passport and papers hold more worth than a UK studbook, since you dont do it through the society your stallions are graded with??

Sorry for all the questions, but I am just trying to get my head round it all.  I think in fairness from what has been said and through the pm's I have received that I would now be put off going for any foal with KWPN Reg B paperwork... 
	
	
		
		
	


	




...no matter how good they were.

Saying that I have also been slightly put off with the KWPN views of thinking that they are obviously better than everyone else and that nobody in the UK is capable of breeding anything of any worth if it is not out of a KWPN stallion and mare....


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## Ciss (10 July 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
Just to confirm things - in an effort to be a bit more 'inclusive' the KWPN DO allow Register B horses to be presented in keurings in the UK HOWEVER, they will absolutely not permit any Register B mare to be 'upgraded' into the Studbook however good she is.  Register B mares can take part only to receive advice from the KWPN judges and I think this situation is highly unlikely to change now or in the future. 

[/ QUOTE ]

In fact. the relevant EU law is a requirement for studbooks to register ALL animals bred from two parents both regsitered in the studbook as studbook of origin (ie in the case of the KWPN having both parents with KWPN birth registration papers) EVEN IF NEITHER PARENT IS APPROVED FOR BREEDING WITH THE STUDBOOK CONCERNED. Such animals must be registered in a special section of the main studbook but neither they, nor their progeny, can be upgraded out of it into the proper breeding regsiter (ie they cannot be approved/graded/licenced for breeding puproses by that studbook).

This regulation (only introduced in actionable form in 2005) is what led most of the native, M&amp;M and NPS studbooks in the UK to create their so-called Section Xs, the concept of which was developed in consultation with Defra in August 200% (know that for a fact as I was part of the negotiating/consulting team). Similar actions have been taken in other countries, mainly by pure-bred, native and rare breed studbooks to preserve their integrity as the open grading/registration system of most wb books -- and their requirement by WBFSH to work towards the betterment of the breed -- makes such get-out clauses un-necessary.

KWPN Reg B actually predates this regulation and allows upgrading of offspring by a graded stallion so is in fact an internal breeding rule of the KWPN rather than anything governed by recent legal revsions of the relevant directives. As pointed out by Opie, Reg B foals bred outside The Netherlands also help the KWPN to raise its foal numbers -- and therefore voting strength -- within the WBFSH, which is quite important in regard to their international rankings. Although I had long realised that this was the case for British-bred Reg A foals I must admit until Opie emntined it, it had not occurred to me that Reg B foals also upped the figures -- mainly becuase most other wb studbooks don't issue papers to foals that cannot be graded with them as it is not viewed as a particularly positive way of 'bettering the breed'. Of course, it is always possible that the WBFSH will refuse to include such foals in the count when the new system is introdcued, so Lyon in November could be an interesting General Assembly.

[ QUOTE ]
 The second point is up until this year, the KWPN did in fact allow horses registered in the likes of the SSH, AES, SHB(GB), BWBS (i.e. EU approved studbook that are NOT on the KWPN's rcognised list) to be presented at the keuring and if they passed the criteria, they were 'graded' and inscribed in the Studbook.  This year, that has changed and those horses (like the Reg B ones) can now only take part to receive advice from the judges.  This is a new rule brought in this year so I think its also highly unlikely that they will change things and accept these mares again now or in the future. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Have to say that this is what I had understood was the case --and have heard many moans about it from people (particularly with AES and BWBS-bred mares) who feel a bit hard done by -- so I am surprised that Opie thinks otherwise, but perhas its a case of hope springing eternal as far as the SSH goes. And it will certainly help Uk studbook numbers in the long run so not being accepted by the KWPN is actually not a problem to the British studbooks concerned themselves.

[ QUOTE ]
 The one thing I really don't agree with Opie is the view that the KWPN's philosophy is "to encourage its members to use primarily KWPN stallions and selected mares".  I think that is a British view of the role of a studbook and not what the KWPN is about. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Have to agree with Opie on this one though (is that a first?). It's probably a case of the observer seeing more of the game and those who have heard JK say repeatedly that the KWPN will always come in where it feels the existing studbook has failed, noting that the coming in always seems to take place where a sizebale number of KWPN mares have been imported and the owners are presumably looking for KWPN graded stallions to use on them. Thisnis even more clearly the case when both sire and dam are both eligible for one or more of the open studbooks already operating successfully in the country concerned (eg USA as well as UK) but the KWPN decides to hold gradings there for an open range of breeds.

[ QUOTE ]
 I genuinely think the KWPN exists to help its members breed the best quality foals possible.  Nothing more, nothing less.  The grading criteria for mares is actually quite low - if you read anything or talk to anyone from the KWPN they will tell you that the breeder selects the mare and chooses whether she is worthy to breed from.  The KWPN's role is to assist the breeder in the objective appraisal of the mare and collect and publish sufficient information on its stallions to enable the breeder to select the most suitable stallion for their mare.  If you want you can use a stallion approved by say Hann, OLD etc and you won't get particularly penalised (foal will be Reg A and can still be graded). 

[/ QUOTE ]

Low seems to be an unfortunate word to use in this idealistic context, I do hope it is not an indication of the true view that the KWPN has of some of the not too impressive mares that have been graded here by them recently. As this surely must not be the case  (as what kind of betterment of the breed is that?), I would think the words 'open' or 'fexible' would be a more politically correct description.

[ QUOTE ]
 Anyway back to the OP's original question...  Would I buy a Reg B foal as a breeding prospect?  If she was a filly, probably not, purely bacause I specifically breed KWPN horses, and going to gradings and chasing predicates is important to me.  

[/ QUOTE ]

Can cetrtainly agree with that. Definitely a case of the old Irish answer on being asked how to hget somewhere 'If I wanted to go there I wouldn't start from here'  but ...

[ QUOTE ]
HOWEVER, that does not mean that this foal won't grow up to be a great broodmare.  If you are only interested in breeding quality foals and aren't bothered about jumping through studbook hoops, the she may be a good buy.  One thing to bear in mind - even though she is register B, if she is by a KWPN approved stallion and you cover her by another KWPN approved stallion, her foal will be eligible for 'full' foalbook papers.  It takes a generation but if its important to you, you can get there in the end...  
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

... I wouldn't even start from there either. There are a huge number of fully registered fillies available (come to the Futturity and see some of them ) with full pedigrees and two graded parents -- whether KWPN, BHHS, BWBS, AES, SSH, TBF or even SHBGB or some other one -- and if they have that sort of pedigree, grading will be allowed in the relevant studbook and the fillies subsequent foals by a fully graded stallion will have full papers too. Gaps in grading status in a pedigree can lead to major problems for grading for several generations (especially for potential stallions) so it is far better to take the long-term view and buy a filly with full papers rather than make all the extra work for yourself that a Reg B will create. And I doubt -- becuase Reg B papers look so similar to full Reg A papers -- that the breeder will want to reduce the price at all becuase of this (after all she is a KWPN-bred fully as far as the breeder is concerned) so getting a less expensive deal is probably not a factor either.

We all know that the longtest journey starts with the first step, but it is even longer if the first step is a step backwards!


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## jeanette10 (10 July 2008)

Thank you Ciss for that indepth analogy, that has been quite beneficial to me, besides the other valid posts made.

Can I also ask then.....how does cross registering go in the UK of all the studbooks with mares??

For instance if I had a BWBS mare, would it go straight into the main studbook of the AES, SHB(GB) or Scottish Sportshorse say?  Or like the KWPN would it be put into a lower studbook within the system??

Also what happens if you have a horse through the British Hanoverians for example, is this then recognised with Germany?

I also think that I have been put off with even considering a horse with KWPN Register B papers, will either go for something from a UK studbook with full papers, or with full papers with a European Studbook.


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## Wisnette (10 July 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
Low seems to be an unfortunate word to use in this idealistic context, I do hope it is not an indication of the true view that the KWPN has of some of the not too impressive mares that have been graded here by them recently. As this surely must not be the case  (as what kind of betterment of the breed is that?), I would think the words 'open' or 'fexible' would be a more politically correct description. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Ciss, as I said above, the KWPN's view is that the  *breeder* decides whether or not they should breed from their mare.  This might be different from the conventional British view of the purpose of mare gradings but it does make sense...  If breeders want to breed from their mare, they are encouraged to present her at the grading - they can then receive an objective appraisal of her whilst also providing the studbook with feedback on her sire. Mares must pass the set minimum criteria to be upgraded into the Studbook and so not to put people off, the vast majority of mares pass this.  However, the better quality mares ARE recognised/identified by the ster predicate.  The betterment of the breed, as you put it, comes from the extremely strict selection process for the approval of stallions and providing the mare owner with some excellent info to enable them to make an informed choice on which stallion will best suit their mare.

As regards the list of KWPN recognised studbooks, the reason British studbooks are not recognised is because they are languishing so far down on the WBFSH rankings.  

As we all know, the KWPN has high aspirations and so I don't think its surprising that it recognises only those studbooks that are consistently producing the goods.  The list gets periodically reviewed and amended depending on the rankings - I believe the AES used to be recognised but dropped down the rankings so was removed from the list.  Should one of our studbooks start to dominate then I'm sure it would be put on the list.

It's not all doom and gloom for British studbooks though  TB's do get special recognition and foals by KWPN approved stallions out of mares registered in Weatherbys GSB get full foalbook papers.


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## jeanette10 (10 July 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
It's not all doom and gloom for British studbooks though  TB's do get special recognition and foals by KWPN approved stallions out of mares registered in Weatherbys GSB get full foalbook papers.    

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Why does the TB's get special recognition??  Is that not double standards of the KWPN as the TB's are not dominating the dressage or showjumping rankings either 
	
	
		
		
	


	




....


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## Wisnette (10 July 2008)

The KWPN like many other warmblood studbooks constantly want to include more TB into their bloodlines with the aim of breeding the more 'modern' type.  Whether 'modern' is what's required or not is a whole nother discussion...


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## Damien (10 July 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
 So reading through all the information, basically I take from this that KWPN Reg B papers are in reality pretty worthless if you are seriously looking at the breeding aspect (which I am wishing to do).

[/ QUOTE ] 

No they are not at all worthless, they are "main" stud book papers and are registered in the B register of the "main" stud book - 
	
	
		
		
	


	




  they are not merely registrations of birth as implied by the OP. 

Understanding EU legislation helps to clarify this - No EU member stud book has the right to register an  animal "outwith" their MAIN studbook (register) unless it does not fit into the characteristics outlined in their studbook guidelines which they are obliged to outline in their guidelines.  
	
	
		
		
	


	





[ QUOTE ]
 I dont want to purchase something that will hold no worth with some societies as my main aim is to produce something worth breeding. 

[/ QUOTE ]

And quite rightly so, I would hope that no one aims to breed poor quality, however to restrict ones freedom of choice based on an animals paperwork when there are oppertunities to overcome those restrictions, may not be the best approach. 

Bearing in mind that progeny from a Reg B mare sired by a KWPN approved stallion or (recognised studbook stallion) will be ellegible for registration in the foal book and can later be presented for entry into std book so again hardly worthless.  
	
	
		
		
	


	





Clients have bred one of our home bred Reg B fillies to Van Gogh this year and the foal is ellegible for VB KWPN papers, however they don't care as they are breeding and producing showjumpers first and foremost with quality at the helm not the paperwork, and the foal will be registered with the ISH  
	
	
		
		
	


	





As previously mentioned not all studbooks differentiate between the different books and will allow the progeny of a reg B animal to be registered into its "highest" book, others assess an animal on its own merit and this in IMO the better way forwards as a studbook that does this is in a position to truly classify only the BEST animals in their highest book regardless of it's paperwork or parentage   
	
	
		
		
	


	





I understand the reasoning why studbooks have restrictions in place but also recognise that some of the restrictions prevent a number of animals from being justifably identified.

There are a vast number of lesser quality appropriately papered horses availible for purchase, as Wisnette highlighted the citeria for VB stb registration is relatively LOW  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 and have seen many examples of these over the years, "pink papered or not"  
	
	
		
		
	


	





The paperwork does not physically improve the quality of the animal.   
	
	
		
		
	


	





There may be a great deal of stigma attached by some breeders in order to undermine the quality/value of animals produced by breeders breeding outwith the box  but there is much less stigma attached by buyers and competition riders that compete and ride those horses, the majority of whom never ask and don't care. They want to ride and compete a good horse, the market always decides.  
	
	
		
		
	


	





As with many breeders turning to a studbook that caters for their individual needs can prove fruitful. Perhaps it would be better to consider a studbook that offers less restrictions if you have the confidence to do so undertsanably many breeders choose not to for fear of being critisedwhich is a shame. On the other hand some breeders carefully select a studbook for a variety of reasons, some use multiple studbooks in order to position their animals carefully and take the best parts from different studbooks.

[ QUOTE ]
 So what happens then if you have a mare by a KWPN
 stallion, use a KWPN stallion but decide to have it registered with a UK Studbook....basically the KWPN would still say that this is not good enough for them??  

[/ QUOTE ] 

This is where it becomes complicated - If you have a KWPN VB mare and breed it to a KWPN VB stallion then your foal will be registered VB foal book. 

However if your mare is sired by a KWPN stallion or by a stallion that the KWPN recognise but has an SSH passport for example and is bred to a KWPN approved stallion the foal will be registered in the B register unless the mare has been presented at a KWPN Keuring and entered into the stb on the provison that it also adheres to the additional criteria of entry. Its parenatage will be disregarded even if she is  of EU WB parentage generation after generation. e.g. SSH passported mare sired by BWP stallion out of a CH (Swiss) state premium mare sired by an approved CH stallion bred to a KWPN approved stallion. The passport of the mare becomes "obstructive"

For a breeder to pay a premium stud fee for an approved KWPN stallion to then have the progeny registered in the B register because the mare does not fit the stud books accepted paperwork criteria may come as a suprise, so as previously mentioned breeders always need to be aware prior to making a descison about a) which stallions they choose to use on which mare and b) which studbook they then choose to register the foal. Breeders must not assume that becuase a stallion is approved by the KWPN that the foal will automaticaly be registered with VB foal papers.

[ QUOTE ]
Saying that I have also been slightly put off with the KWPN views of thinking that they are obviously better than everyone else and that nobody in the UK is capable of breeding anything of any worth if it is not out of a KWPN stallion and mare....

[/ QUOTE ] 

I can understand that and this is why I commented that if someone really wanted to they could be challenged through the EU commission as EU decisions are implemented to facilitate and promote fair trade between the EU member states. However its not worth the struggle as their are plenty of alternatives for breeders.  
	
	
		
		
	


	





[ QUOTE ]
 Opie I went on your website this morning and must say you have some nice foals (although I am not the biggest fan of coloureds.. )

[/ QUOTE ] 

Thank you.   
	
	
		
		
	


	





[ QUOTE ]
However, I noticed that your stallions are graded with the scottish sports horse but you also register your foals with the KWPN, so does this mean that you feel the KWPN passport and papers hold more worth than a UK studbook

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The access to data via the KWPN and my membership at this momet in time surpasses that of any of the UK studbooks. If and when that changes then I will reasses the choices I make.  
	
	
		
		
	


	





If a foal is sold prior to registration we always allow the buyers to choose which studbook they wish to passport the foal. Some choose SSH and some choose the KWPN, the same applies to the issuing of covering certifcates for the stallions. Some owners request KWPN certifcates some choose SSH, mares owners/buyers are given the freedom of choice.  
	
	
		
		
	


	





[ QUOTE ]
 Sorry for all the questions, but I am just trying to get my head round it all. I think in fairness from what has been said and through the pm's I have received that I would now be put off going for any foal with KWPN Reg B paperwork... ...no matter how good they were. 

[/ QUOTE ] 

That is a great shame but does not surpise me the industry at large needs to protect and justify their reasoning in order to protect their own invested interest, we all do.


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## Wisnette (10 July 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
This is where it becomes complicated - If you have a KWPN VB mare and breed it to a KWPN VB stallion then your foal will be registered VB foal book. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Opie, I think you meant if you have a KWPN VB mare and breed her to a KWPN  *Approved*  stallion, then your foal will be registered VB (foalbook).  If you breed to a KWPN VB stallion (i.e. not approved), your foal is only eligible for Register B (regardless of the mares registration status).  
	
	
		
		
	


	





I agree that Reg B is not worthless - as I said before, providing the filly is by a KWPN approved stallion, the next generation is entitled to full foalbook papers and a lot of riders don't care what book there horse is registered in...


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## jeanette10 (10 July 2008)

Thanks for everyones response, a lot of food for thought for me, but much appreciated.


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## Navalgem (10 July 2008)

So a foal could potentially have amazing breeding, conformation and shown good potential in Eventing, Showjumping or Dressage, but be considered 'worthless' as a breding prospect because it's 'only' reg B? how ridiculous - I thought the aim of any studbook was to breed sound, competitive, useful animals, not pretty paperwork.


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## Damien (10 July 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
 Opie, I think you meant if you have a KWPN VB mare and breed her to a KWPN Approved stallion  

[/ QUOTE ]  

yes thanks wisnette stand corrected  
	
	
		
		
	


	





[ QUOTE ]
 So a foal could potentially have amazing breeding, conformation and shown good potential in Eventing, Showjumping or Dressage, but be considered 'worthless' as a breding prospect because it's 'only' reg B? how ridiculous - I thought the aim of any studbook was to breed sound, competitive, useful animals, not pretty paperwork.  

[/ QUOTE ] 

LOL to put it in perspective yes... 

and agree ridiculous.   
	
	
		
		
	


	




 but the REALITY is that the market will always decide.......


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