# Getting seriously fed up with being bitten now!!



## Ellietotz (25 April 2017)

I now have a bruise on my jaw when my lovely mare came over to say hi over the fence yesterday, put her nose to my face with her ears forwards and I gave her a stroke, before I know it, her teeth are crashing against my jaw!! Bear in mind, I wasn't even touching her at this point! 
The other day, I was brushing her, all nice and going well, bend down to pick up another brush in front of her and she's got her teeth in my head. 
Not only actual bites but I'm sick to death at having a million near misses when I'm not even doing anything! I try to ignore it most of the time but I am getting fed up now. How can I actually stop her doing this? I don't even get the chance to tell her off either because as soon as she's bitten me, her heads in the air and she's trying to run off because she knows she will get told off!! I've never ever hit her in the face but she just somehow knows she's done something wrong and if she gets that scared of being told off, why even do it in the first place?? I can put up with the ears back and the faces but when I actually get hurt for doing absolutely nothing wrong or even touching her, I can't stand it. I've always tried to be really sensitive with her as well, always been forgiving and kind and have never hurt her. I would understand if I was dressing a painful wound or something but she came over to say hello to ME and I get teeth to the face!!!

Rant over! Thanks for reading!


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## Laika (25 April 2017)

Is this something she has always done or has it just started recently?? 

Mares eh....


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## Bernster (25 April 2017)

Not nice.  My boy isn't a serial biter but he's always been a bit 'mouthy' and has on occasion grabbed when there are treats and he's been known to try to eat someone's pony tail when they were doing his hay.

I don't hand feed him and I am very consistent in disciplining him whenever he oversteps the mark.  He is much much better, it's still a bit of a default with him so I think he will always need reminding, but I do try and ensure he minds his manners and gets picked up on it if he doesn't.

I don't have a magic answer for you but I def think you need to be firmer with her; not put yourself in a situation where she can get at you; and work on her ground manners.  No need to beat them up, but mine does get a reprimand - dep what it is he's done, that might be my voice, upping my energy and moving towards him purposefully, a push away, or a smack if it's appropriate.  It's got to be immediate and proportionate, but he's too big and cheeky to be allowed to get away with it.


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## Ellietotz (25 April 2017)

Laika said:



			Is this something she has always done or has it just started recently?? 

Mares eh....
		
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She has always done it apparently. She was bred at home and is still in the same place now, I full loan her there. She was extremely spoilt growing up, would practically lay on you if you sat on the floor, very loving girl when she wants to be but it's on the rare occasion. I've known her for two years as I've been there riding another horse for that time but I've loaned her for 6 months now. Sometimes I find it so difficult to bond with her... in fact, I don't feel like I've bonded with her at all. She knows I'm the one that makes her do stuff i.e work or have to stand whilst being brushed so she doesn't like me... so it feels anyway.  She likes using me for scratches but only in the field where she has a choice, not when tied up, so when she's done, she can pull a face at me and pretend she's about to kick and walk away. She doesn't bite anyone else, she pulls faces occasionally but when having cuddles with other people, she won't randomly lash out. Only with me because no one else rides her. That's how I see it anyway.


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## Supertrooper (25 April 2017)

I don't have a magic answer either but mine was a biter when I got him, he will still try now if worried but because we have so much more trust in each other he won't follow through. 

I'd be interested to know how long you've had her and if she's always done this or if it's a new behaviour.


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## Meowy Catkin (25 April 2017)

Is this the same horse that you suspect has stomach ulcers?


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## Pinkvboots (25 April 2017)

Am I right in thinking this is the horse that has suspected ulcers?


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## Ellietotz (25 April 2017)

Bernster said:



			Not nice.  My boy isn't a serial biter but he's always been a bit 'mouthy' and has on occasion grabbed when there are treats and he's been known to try to eat someone's pony tail when they were doing his hay.

I don't hand feed him and I am very consistent in disciplining him whenever he oversteps the mark.  He is much much better, it's still a bit of a default with him so I think he will always need reminding, but I do try and ensure he minds his manners and gets picked up on it if he doesn't.

I don't have a magic answer for you but I def think you need to be firmer with her; not put yourself in a situation where she can get at you; and work on her ground manners.  No need to beat them up, but mine does get a reprimand - dep what it is he's done, that might be my voice, upping my energy and moving towards him purposefully, a push away, or a smack if it's appropriate.  It's got to be immediate and proportionate, but he's too big and cheeky to be allowed to get away with it.
		
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I have tried that too. I wouldn't even be able to get near to her for a smack if it was appropriate anyway because she just freaks out. If she's tied up and tries to bite me or actually gets me, the moment she see's I've taken notice, her head is in the air and she's almost trying to rear to get away so I find myself calming her down so she doesn't break something or hurt herself! Over a fence when she comes to say hello and does it, I wouldn't have any chance to raise my voice at her, perhaps just putting my arms out and sending her away? Would that work? So she thinks she can't come over and do as she pleases? I don't know


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## Ellietotz (25 April 2017)

Supertrooper said:



			I don't have a magic answer either but mine was a biter when I got him, he will still try now if worried but because we have so much more trust in each other he won't follow through. 

I'd be interested to know how long you've had her and if she's always done this or if it's a new behaviour.
		
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I've had her 6 months and yes, always been like this. Have known the owner for years and she was very spoilt. She's the same with horses as well as people!


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## Supertrooper (25 April 2017)

We must of cross posted! 

What worked for mine, may or may not work for you but could be worth a try...

No feeding from hand, from anyone
Get a dog tug toy, when she goes to bite give her that to stick in her mouth instead. This gives her something to bite but doesn't get a reaction from you. 
Work on just spending non pressurised time with her, sit in her field just chilling, don't fuss her or bother her. I do this a lot with mine, don't expect her to come and be with you initially but you may find that she gets curious. Just let her do what she is happy with. 
Get her checked over to reassure yourself it's not something physical


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## Ellietotz (25 April 2017)

Pinkvboots said:



			Am I right in thinking this is the horse that has suspected ulcers?
		
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Yes, she doesn't have ulcers. Plus, this isn't anything new. She's done it all her life, I've known her for over two years, only loaned her for 6 months but she has always been the same 'on her terms' kind of horse.


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## Meowy Catkin (25 April 2017)

Laika said:



			Mares eh....
		
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*slaps Laika with a wet fish for her flippant, sexist comment*


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## Pinkvboots (25 April 2017)

Faracat said:



			Is this the same horse that you suspect has stomach ulcers?
		
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I think we are being ignored!


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## Ellietotz (25 April 2017)

Supertrooper said:



			We must of cross posted! 

What worked for mine, may or may not work for you but could be worth a try...

No feeding from hand, from anyone
Get a dog tug toy, when she goes to bite give her that to stick in her mouth instead. This gives her something to bite but doesn't get a reaction from you. 
Work on just spending non pressurised time with her, sit in her field just chilling, don't fuss her or bother her. I do this a lot with mine, don't expect her to come and be with you initially but you may find that she gets curious. Just let her do what she is happy with. 
Get her checked over to reassure yourself it's not something physical
		
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I did the dog tug toy thing but with a brush instead, made her more angry if I'm honest! Might do the field thing, she gets a lot of time just following me around while I'm doing my jobs and I don't bother her though. But if I then turn around to give her a scratch, she will put her ears back. I just can't win. She would probably rather go back to being a field ornament that she was for 5 years before I came along.


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## Ellietotz (25 April 2017)

Pinkvboots said:



			I think we are being ignored!
		
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I have responded?


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## Meowy Catkin (25 April 2017)

Was she scoped then?

I think that PVB and myself have read your posts about this horse for a long time now and suspect that the horse has a long standing issue somewhere.


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## Pinkvboots (25 April 2017)

Ellietotz said:



			I have responded?
		
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but you started a thread a few weeks ago saying you suspected ulcers and that you didn't have the funds to treat and her owners were not interested in getting a vet either, have you had her scoped since then?


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## Goldenstar (25 April 2017)

Ellietotz said:



			Yes, she doesn't have ulcers. Plus, this isn't anything new. She's done it all her life, I've known her for over two years, only loaned her for 6 months but she has always been the same 'on her terms' kind of horse.
		
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Oh you got her scoped good what did they find ?
Btw many horses start with ulcers as foals so it need not be anything new I surprised they did not tell you that when you took her into the vets for the scope .


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## Ellietotz (25 April 2017)

There are no ulcers, there is no underlying issue. She has had all things checked as I've said before like back, teeth etc. She did nothing for 5 years of her life, she was just turned away, the owner had her others to focus on, she's 11 now so she wasn't broken in and ridden for long either. Before I came along, she was loving when she wanted to be and horrible when she didn't want you around, normally if you didn't have food for her. You don't have to even touch her for her to bite you, you just simply have to be there in reaching distance. She always got her own way and always knew how. She has been registered with the same vet for her whole life too who know her well and say she's just general very typically mareish. If you don't have something for her, she's not interested.


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## ycbm (25 April 2017)

Has she been scoped in the last few weeks?   yes or no?


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## Regandal (25 April 2017)

You cannot rule out ulcers 100 % unless the horse is scoped. None of us,  vets included,  have xray vision. If only.


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## Wagtail (25 April 2017)

If horse only does it to you, and you are the one who rides her, then she associates you with something she doesn't like. They're not daft. It's not even anthropomorphising; it's plain stimulus response. A horse with ulcers HATES being ridden. It hurts. Has she actually been scoped for ulcers, OP or have people just told you she doesn't have them?


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## jhoward (25 April 2017)

Put a grazing muzzle on her when your handling her...only don't go for a rubber bottom one, that can hurt to, and cross tie her so her head movements are more limited


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## laura_nash (25 April 2017)

Ellietotz said:



			I now have a bruise on my jaw when my lovely mare came over to say hi over the fence yesterday, put her nose to my face with her ears forwards and I gave her a stroke, before I know it, her teeth are crashing against my jaw!! Bear in mind, I wasn't even touching her at this point! 
[...]
I don't even get the chance to tell her off either because as soon as she's bitten me, her heads in the air and she's trying to run off because she knows she will get told off!! I've never ever hit her in the face but she just somehow knows she's done something wrong and if she gets that scared of being told off, why even do it in the first place?? 
[...]
I don't feel like I've bonded with her at all. She knows I'm the one that makes her do stuff i.e work or have to stand whilst being brushed so she doesn't like me... so it feels anyway.  She likes using me for scratches but only in the field where she has a choice, not when tied up, so when she's done, she can pull a face at me and pretend she's about to kick and walk away. She doesn't bite anyone else, she pulls faces 
occasionally but when having cuddles with other people, she won't randomly lash out. Only with me because no one else rides her. That's how I see it anyway.
		
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Please, please don't put your face anywhere near the nose of a known biter, that is a good way to get a life-changing facial injury.

Its quite common for horses that bite to then shoot back in panic in the expectation of being hit in the face.  Even if you have never done this, someone else probably has.  Unfortunately it makes the biting more dangerous.  To quote Monty Roberts "What happens when one chooses to hit the horse for biting is that the biting will continue at the same level. The horse will become more cunning as to timing, faster on the attack and very quick to jerk back anticipating being hit. The overall outcome is that the biting becomes much worse rather than experiencing an improvement. [..] It is critical that no attention is paid to the muzzle area of the biting horse whatsoever. These measures will simply cause the horse to bite down with the teeth and then exit taking parts of your clothing and possibly even your skin along with him."

Unfortunately I suspect you are right that she is lashing out at you because you are the one working her, grooming her etc.  Particularly since you mentioned that she is generally better with you in the field when you don't have a headcollar on her.  I'm afraid that suggests that she is either in pain (due to a physical problem or tack), for some other reason she seriously dislikes whatever it is you are doing with her, or it is an ingrained behaviour due to remembered pain / poor handling.  Either way it doesn't sound like a safe or enjoyable situation for you.


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## little_critter (25 April 2017)

My mare went through a phase of being really grouchy and biting (or at least very very big threats to bite, I think she actually didn't want to hurt me but to warn me off, although she did get a few good bites in)
I too thought it might be ulcers as she was reactive around the usual ulcer areas. 
After a bit of experimentation (asking others to handle those same areas, touching those areas at different times of the day) I realised it wasn't ulcers; she was associating me handling her in the evening with being tacked up and ridden. 
I then found her saddle was bridging and making her sore. 
I stopped using the saddle and hey presto, happy pony. 

So it's worth ruling in / out ulcers but also look at what you are doing and the times you are doing it when she bites. Can you make any links? Is there something you are doing that she is objecting to? Is she associating that activity or time of day with something that makes her uncomfortable?


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## Celtic Fringe (25 April 2017)

There is a mare in our yard who sounds fairly similar to yours, although the one here is hostile to everyone and will not go anywhere near strangers. She is not nearly as easy going as the other horses in the herd so very clear, very consistent and calm behaviour has been needed so her boundaries are clear. Ironically driving her away at the first signs of unwanted behaviour has worked well. I usually deal with her loose in the field (she lives out 24/7). At the moment she still needs a rug on at night so I start with scratching or brushing her itchy bits which she likes. A growl from me usually works if she threatens to bite but if needed I send her away and keep her moving until she drops her head a little. Usually she will then stop and let me near for another scratch and stand for her rug to be put on. I always keep one elbow ready to push her muzzle out the way but a hiss or growl is all that is needed now. It has taken several years to get to this stage - she was extremely hostile when she first arrived and would both kick and bite when tied up in the yard, but will now accept most situations as long as the boundaries are consistent and very clear.


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## Equi (25 April 2017)

I don't believe the horse has been scoped for ulcers, so im not sure how you can say she hasn't got them

But, in a world she definitely 100% (scoped) does not have them, stop getting into the situation you are getting bitten. If you knew a dog bit out of the blue for no reason, would you still put your face to it and rub it? 

I think from your posts you want a lovey dovey cuddly horse. Thats fine, many horses are like that. But this mare is not..so you need to decide if you want to have this mare or you want to find a horse who actually tolerates the lovey dovey crap. Not all horses do, and you can't change their own personal preferences. They are not robots..they have their own minds. You can reprimand her 100 times, do this, do that, do anything you read on the internet...but you WON'T change that horses personality. All you CAN do is stop putting yourself in the way of her mouth.


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## Beausmate (26 April 2017)

Does this horse share its field with any others?


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## Goldenstar (26 April 2017)

You're fed up I would reflect on how fed up this poor horse is if I were you .


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## Nudibranch (26 April 2017)

Is there anyone experienced who can help you with her? She really doesn't sound like a suitable horse, for various reasons, and if you don't want to find a more suitable one then it would definitely be a good idea to get someone to work with you both.  I have to say that horses who were spoilt as babies aren't a good choice for someone who might not have a lot of experience. They often lack respect and can do some pretty serious things - biting you around the head and face are serious. Please do not put yourself in a situation where she can, because she will.
I would also still be concerned about ulcers because you don't seem to have had her scoped. Given the owners a) won't get the vet to scope, or even do a basic workup, and b) have handled her badly from what you say, is it really worth loaning her?


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## ironhorse (26 April 2017)

If you actually want to stop this behaviour, quit the cuddles, quit the treats, stop fussing with her and focus on a programme of firm, fair handling.
Horses that have been spoilt and babied - often orphaned or weak foals - are horrible to handle and you may not resolve this, but for safety's sake it's got to be worth a try.
The ulcers question may be a red herring - horses with ulcers will often only bite if you touch a painful or sensitive area such as the girth or flank.
This biting behaviour sounds like the playful/aggressive action of a horse that has never been allowed to grow up.
You need to do some groundwork, getting her to respect your space - walk, halt, back uo and turn on command without crowding you or barging; use a bridle or a rope halter if necessary. If she goes to bite you, you need to be quick enough to deflect her with your elbow - it should make contact with the side of her face. This makes the connection between biting as an action that hurts HER. At the same time say NO firmly and them go back to what you were doing. Don;t make a fuss, shout, swear or retaliate.
But equally be fair to her - keep grooming to the necessary only and respect that mares often have tickly places. i invested in a 'jelly' curry comb for our sensitive mare which removes and mud or sweat and it was the best thing I ever bought. For safety, I would cross tie her for thorough grooming if needed, washing or tacking up.
Leave her alone in the field - it's her time to 'be a horse'. It will take time - but be consistent and she should improve.
My gelding - who was the last one that the breeder produced  so was a bit spoilt - went through a bitey phase and we were able to sort it although he can be quite dominant and even now needs the odd reminder.


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## Meowy Catkin (26 April 2017)

The behaviour has been going on right from the start of the loan IIRC. Thread here http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?737956-Complicated-pony&p=13387386#post13387386

I cannot possibly know exactly what's going on, we only have the descriptions from Ellietotz who is loaning her, to go on. However I'm sure that most people when reading through her threads about this horse would agree that the horse has some sort of long term issue and that as the horse had never had a full lameness work up/x-rays/scoping etc... we cannot possibly say the the horse is pain free and declare it to be purely a handling issue or a behavioural one.


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## indie1282 (26 April 2017)

If this is the horse with suspected ulcers then I'm not surprised she is trying to bite you. You say you have checked her out but you don't say if she was scoped. 

It's really frustrating to read post after post about problems you are having when you do not take any advice.

 I would not reprimand a horse for buying if I wasn't 100% sure it was not in pain!


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## Tiddlypom (26 April 2017)

Please hand this horse back before you end up with life changing injuries, or worse. She isn't happy, and I very much doubt that you are, either.

*waits for thread to be locked*


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## LadySam (26 April 2017)

Faracat said:



			... we cannot possibly say the the horse is pain free and declare it to be purely a handling issue or a behavioural one.
		
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This is true.  And in the thread Faracat links to, I too recommended a vetting before taking the horse on.  I still think it's a good idea.  But while pain response can't be completely ruled out, looking at all the evidence from several threads, I believe this mare's issue is behavioural and not pain.

I know there are people here who believe it's a pain response because that's the experience they had with their horses and that's fair enough.  Conversely though, I have had, and continue to care for horses with ulcers and other pain who express that without repeatedly trying to bite my face off.

I wrote what ended up being a 1500 word article in response to this earlier but opted not to post.  I basically said what ironhorse said above.  I think what we have here is an overhandled-when-young, home bred spoilt brat.  On top of that, she's 11 years old and still living in the same field where she was born, and was left turned out there for 5 years to her own devices.  So on top of being a spoilt brat, I think she's installed herself as the dominant mare of the herd here, whatever horses come and go.  The alleged pain response is demonstrated even in situations where it is not being exacerbated by saddle, rider, touching her flanks or tummy... Everything she does is classic herd dominating behaviour and she's never been successfully challenged on it.  

OP said herself, *She's the same with horses as well as people!*  That's not pain.  And it's not surprising if she was overhandled and didn't grow up properly.  Essentially, she doesn't see a clear difference between horses and people (why should she?) and treats them the same.

Meanwhile, OP as her new human handler is more concerned with 'bonding' and being 'liked' by this horse.  OP is acting like the plain girl who is trying to become best friends with the prettiest, most popular girl in school by being nice to her.  And the horse, quite rightly, is treating this with contempt.

OP, I mean no offence.  But if you insist on keeping this horse and want a 'friendship' with her, you've got to work out the respect issue first.  This horse does not respect you.  She comes into your space uninvited, dismisses you when she's done with you and does not allow you to do the same with her.  

Meaningful partnerships between human and horse don't even begin to come about until respect is established and rock solid with the human in charge.  Stop trying to be her best friend, start being her boss and leader.

Follow ironhorse's advice.  Go back to basics and teach her respect and manners with firm but fair groundwork and handling.  It's not a quick, easy fix - it takes work, patience and consistency.  But you can get there, as ironhorse did.  The one spot where my opinion differs with ironhorse's is their advice to "leave her alone in the field", as I believe doing this in the past - after being overhandled and not corrected - has contributed to the problem.  I think it's probably too late for her to come good in that way.  At 11 years old, that horse has bolted (no pun intended).

If successful, this will achieve one of two things.  At best, it will solve the problem completely.  At worst, if she does indeed have an underlying pain problem, you will at least have a well-mannered horse who respects you and can express a pain response without trying to remove your face.


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## Goldenstar (26 April 2017)

Tiddlypom said:



			Please hand this horse back before you end up with life changing injuries, or worse. She isn't happy, and I very much doubt that you are, either.

*waits for thread to be locked*
		
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It's very sad to walk away from a situation like but it's best thing for OP to do .
It's clear she had not got the experiance to deal with what is probably a complex set of issues and it's going to cost a lot of money and even if OP can afford it it's not a good idea to pour resource into someone else's horse who you might spend money fixing just to have it removed from you at the drop of a hat .
There are just way too many horses not getting the care they need .


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## Apercrumbie (26 April 2017)

Well for starters I would stop putting myself in situations where she is likely to bite. Stop messing around with her in the field, tie her up short when you bring her in and keep your face away from hers! For bonding, find her scratchy spot (when she is tied up short!) and scratch her there and talk to her lots. Otherwise, be clear and firm when handling. No messing around with your safety.


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## Landcruiser (26 April 2017)

I think LadySam has hit the nail on the head. Great post.


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## Ellietotz (26 April 2017)

laura_nash said:



			Please, please don't put your face anywhere near the nose of a known biter, that is a good way to get a life-changing facial injury.

Its quite common for horses that bite to then shoot back in panic in the expectation of being hit in the face.  Even if you have never done this, someone else probably has.  Unfortunately it makes the biting more dangerous.  To quote Monty Roberts "What happens when one chooses to hit the horse for biting is that the biting will continue at the same level. The horse will become more cunning as to timing, faster on the attack and very quick to jerk back anticipating being hit. The overall outcome is that the biting becomes much worse rather than experiencing an improvement. [..] It is critical that no attention is paid to the muzzle area of the biting horse whatsoever. These measures will simply cause the horse to bite down with the teeth and then exit taking parts of your clothing and possibly even your skin along with him."

Unfortunately I suspect you are right that she is lashing out at you because you are the one working her, grooming her etc.  Particularly since you mentioned that she is generally better with you in the field when you don't have a headcollar on her.  I'm afraid that suggests that she is either in pain (due to a physical problem or tack), for some other reason she seriously dislikes whatever it is you are doing with her, or it is an ingrained behaviour due to remembered pain / poor handling.  Either way it doesn't sound like a safe or enjoyable situation for you.
		
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Thank you. Interesting quote, I'll have to look into that. I know that the last owners have made her headshy, their child told me that they hit her in the face 'when she did that'. Children and honesty, it's a wonderful thing. So I know that has probably been the cause to her being headshy. I just thought she wouldn't associate the same thing with me but clearly it's ingrained. 

She lives on her own as she's horrid to other horses, she went for the owners child as well when they were a lot younger for no particular reason, they just walked in front of her and luckily someone grabbed them out the way in time. Anyone could go into the field to give her a scratch and as soon as she is done, she will put her ears back and throw her head round threatening to bite and walk away to graze again, it doesn't matter where you touch her, I can brush her mane and she would do it. I originally thought it would be ulcers but it doesn't actually matter where you put pressure or touch, tied up, in field etc, she will bite if she wants to, I can rub her belly and scratch all around the girth area, sometimes she bites, sometimes she loves it. I could lean down just to brush her legs and she will try biting and every other time she is fine. The difficulty is, as she is so temperamental everywhere, it's hard to tell if it's behavioral or pain. The owners knew they spoilt her and because she was around people being handled from the moment she was born, she has never known any different. Back and tack has been ruled out, it's all been checked and she loves hacking, she's a speed machine. Her teeth have been checked and done recently too. Is it possible to still have a physical problem if she bites anyone, not just me for just walking in front of her or something? Meaning, when she is tied up, if you duck under the lead rope to get round to the other side, she will do a biting action as such but not actually get you. Perhaps it was the handling, I don't know but I would like to stop it.


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## Ellietotz (26 April 2017)

Celtic Fringe said:



			There is a mare in our yard who sounds fairly similar to yours, although the one here is hostile to everyone and will not go anywhere near strangers. She is not nearly as easy going as the other horses in the herd so very clear, very consistent and calm behaviour has been needed so her boundaries are clear. Ironically driving her away at the first signs of unwanted behaviour has worked well. I usually deal with her loose in the field (she lives out 24/7). At the moment she still needs a rug on at night so I start with scratching or brushing her itchy bits which she likes. A growl from me usually works if she threatens to bite but if needed I send her away and keep her moving until she drops her head a little. Usually she will then stop and let me near for another scratch and stand for her rug to be put on. I always keep one elbow ready to push her muzzle out the way but a hiss or growl is all that is needed now. It has taken several years to get to this stage - she was extremely hostile when she first arrived and would both kick and bite when tied up in the yard, but will now accept most situations as long as the boundaries are consistent and very clear.
		
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Did you ever find out what made her like that in the first place? I do definitely need to work on consistency more I think as I tend to just ignore it and carry on if she doesn't actually get me.


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## Ellietotz (26 April 2017)

Beausmate said:



			Does this horse share its field with any others?
		
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No, she's horrible to others. She doesn't warn them away, she will actually chase them with her mouth open until she gets them.


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## Hallo2012 (26 April 2017)

my 5yo has just been diagnosed with grade 3 ulcers in the pyloric region. he has NEVER bitten or kicked or so much as flinched when touched, he is the sweetest cuddliest horse and you can palpate him HARD anywhere with no reaction.

unless you have had her scoped you cannot say that just because she does or doesnt do XYZ she doesnt have them!

i dont think you have had her scoped have you? so all the other stuff is a waste of time, stop messing around with her and get her the treatment she needs. she's probably just sick of people hurting her tbh so lashes out at anyone and everyone.


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## Ellietotz (26 April 2017)

Tiddlypom said:



			Please hand this horse back before you end up with life changing injuries, or worse. She isn't happy, and I very much doubt that you are, either.

*waits for thread to be locked*
		
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How old are you?


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## Laika (26 April 2017)

Faracat said:



			*slaps Laika with a wet fish for her flippant, sexist comment*
		
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Hahaha!! Not to worry, I don't think I'd ever change my mare for the world.

Any horse can have it's moments, mine just has them more often shall we say ...


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## Ellietotz (26 April 2017)

LadySam said:



			This is true.  And in the thread Faracat links to, I too recommended a vetting before taking the horse on.  I still think it's a good idea.  But while pain response can't be completely ruled out, looking at all the evidence from several threads, I believe this mare's issue is behavioural and not pain.

I know there are people here who believe it's a pain response because that's the experience they had with their horses and that's fair enough.  Conversely though, I have had, and continue to care for horses with ulcers and other pain who express that without repeatedly trying to bite my face off.

I wrote what ended up being a 1500 word article in response to this earlier but opted not to post.  I basically said what ironhorse said above.  I think what we have here is an overhandled-when-young, home bred spoilt brat.  On top of that, she's 11 years old and still living in the same field where she was born, and was left turned out there for 5 years to her own devices.  So on top of being a spoilt brat, I think she's installed herself as the dominant mare of the herd here, whatever horses come and go.  The alleged pain response is demonstrated even in situations where it is not being exacerbated by saddle, rider, touching her flanks or tummy... Everything she does is classic herd dominating behaviour and she's never been successfully challenged on it.  

OP said herself, *She's the same with horses as well as people!*  That's not pain.  And it's not surprising if she was overhandled and didn't grow up properly.  Essentially, she doesn't see a clear difference between horses and people (why should she?) and treats them the same.

Meanwhile, OP as her new human handler is more concerned with 'bonding' and being 'liked' by this horse.  OP is acting like the plain girl who is trying to become best friends with the prettiest, most popular girl in school by being nice to her.  And the horse, quite rightly, is treating this with contempt.

OP, I mean no offence.  But if you insist on keeping this horse and want a 'friendship' with her, you've got to work out the respect issue first.  This horse does not respect you.  She comes into your space uninvited, dismisses you when she's done with you and does not allow you to do the same with her.  

Meaningful partnerships between human and horse don't even begin to come about until respect is established and rock solid with the human in charge.  Stop trying to be her best friend, start being her boss and leader.

Follow ironhorse's advice.  Go back to basics and teach her respect and manners with firm but fair groundwork and handling.  It's not a quick, easy fix - it takes work, patience and consistency.  But you can get there, as ironhorse did.  The one spot where my opinion differs with ironhorse's is their advice to "leave her alone in the field", as I believe doing this in the past - after being overhandled and not corrected - has contributed to the problem.  I think it's probably too late for her to come good in that way.  At 11 years old, that horse has bolted (no pun intended).

If successful, this will achieve one of two things.  At best, it will solve the problem completely.  At worst, if she does indeed have an underlying pain problem, you will at least have a well-mannered horse who respects you and can express a pain response without trying to remove your face.
		
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Thank you!! I am extremely grateful for this. 
That's exactly what her owner said, she thinks people are just one of the herd, she has never known boundaries and the moment she was turned out was straight after she spooked, bucked the rider off and they never got back on again. So she won basically for 5 years!! 
That's what I said in another comment, it doesn't matter where I touch her, it happens even when I don't touch her. She was the owners first home bred foal so you could probably imagine. There are tonnes of pictures of her with her nose to their faces while they hold her head there for kisses etc. 
I know I'm doing it wrong, I'm not experienced with this kind of thing, and I know that which is why I'm wanting to try my best to learn and improve. The girl wanting to be friends with the popular one literally nails this situation. I even put in other posts that I try to be sensitive to her so that she's happy and comfortable because I thought there was a genuine reason. I've probably just made it worse which is why she treats me like that, the owner doesn't allow it so most of the time she doesn't dare. 
So from now on, shall I not ignore her when she tries to bite when brushing/handling? What if she follows me around the field when I'm poopicking? God...I'm thinking about everything I do now, even when I say bye to her over the fence, I wait for her to walk away before I do.  I just want to start again and be tougher with her. All this time I've wanted to wrap her in bubble wrap and look after her and she knows it.


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## Caol Ila (26 April 2017)

Why are you loaning this horse?  The beauty of a loan is that you can walk away.  If you want a cuddly horse, there are plenty out there.  

Even if this horse has ulcers or some other medical issue, it sounds as if the behaviour is now a habit.  If you treat the ulcers, you'll still have to retrain the horse.  This doesn't sound like a horse a person not experienced at fixing nasty biters should be dealing with.

The Black Stallion myth of the girl (or boy) taming the horse no one else could handle and creating a bond of everlasting friendship is just a myth; it doesn't reflect reality.  I think the OP, however much she wants to connect with this horse, should move on and find a horse with a more amenable temperament.  Even if they are in pain, there are many horses who won't try to bite your face off.


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## LadySam (26 April 2017)

It's past 11pm here and I'm about to go to sleep.   I'll write you a response in the morning.  Promise.


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## Ellietotz (26 April 2017)

Landcruiser said:



			I think LadySam has hit the nail on the head. Great post.
		
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Thank you. I agree.


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## laura_nash (26 April 2017)

Ellietotz said:



			She lives on her own as she's horrid to other horses, she went for the owners child as well when they were a lot younger for no particular reason, they just walked in front of her and luckily someone grabbed them out the way in time. Anyone could go into the field to give her a scratch and as soon as she is done, she will put her ears back and throw her head round threatening to bite and walk away to graze again, it doesn't matter where you touch her, I can brush her mane and she would do it. I originally thought it would be ulcers but it doesn't actually matter where you put pressure or touch, tied up, in field etc, she will bite if she wants to, I can rub her belly and scratch all around the girth area, sometimes she bites, sometimes she loves it. I could lean down just to brush her legs and she will try biting and every other time she is fine. The difficulty is, as she is so temperamental everywhere, it's hard to tell if it's behavioral or pain. The owners knew they spoilt her and because she was around people being handled from the moment she was born, she has never known any different. Back and tack has been ruled out, it's all been checked and she loves hacking, she's a speed machine. Her teeth have been checked and done recently too. Is it possible to still have a physical problem if she bites anyone, not just me for just walking in front of her or something? Meaning, when she is tied up, if you duck under the lead rope to get round to the other side, she will do a biting action as such but not actually get you. Perhaps it was the handling, I don't know but I would like to stop it.
		
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From this extra info and the info in the thread Faracat linked I think ironhorse may be right.  I have known a horse with very similar behaviour who was injured as a foal and as a result seriously over-handled / spoilt.  Unfortunately a year of experienced handling on full livery didn't see much improvement and last I heard of him he was on sales livery with a pro.  I used to ride / handle him quite a bit (I worked at the yard at the time) and he was totally unpredictable, perfect some days and positively dangerous others.  He never injured me because I never gave him the chance.

That said I have also known a mare who was very similar to handle (though perfect to ride) and her problems turned out to be an issue with her ovaries so I wouldn't rule out pain, being in pain can make a horse (or person) grumpy generally causing them to lash out apparently randomly.


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## Ellietotz (26 April 2017)

laura_nash said:



			From this extra info and the info in the thread Faracat linked I think ironhorse may be right.  I have known a horse with very similar behaviour who was injured as a foal and as a result seriously over-handled / spoilt.  Unfortunately a year of experienced handling on full livery didn't see much improvement and last I heard of him he was on sales livery with a pro.  I used to ride / handle him quite a bit (I worked at the yard at the time) and he was totally unpredictable, perfect some days and positively dangerous others.  He never injured me because I never gave him the chance.

That said I have also known a mare who was very similar to handle (though perfect to ride) and her problems turned out to be an issue with her ovaries so I wouldn't rule out pain, being in pain can make a horse (or person) grumpy generally causing them to lash out apparently randomly.
		
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Thank you. I'm definitely not going to rule out pain, I'm still going to speak to the vet and in the meantime, do a lot of research as to how I gain respect and set boundaries.


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## Ellietotz (26 April 2017)

LadySam said:



			It's past 11pm here and I'm about to go to sleep.   I'll write you a response in the morning.  Promise.
		
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Thank you. I shall look forward to it.


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## fburton (26 April 2017)

LadySam said:



			OP said herself, *She's the same with horses as well as people!*  That's not pain.
		
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I have no opinion about whether pain is involved or not in this case, but in general why would pain _not_ influence behaviour towards both people and other horses? (Or put another way, why would pain provoke aggression towards one and not the other?) I'd have thought grumpiness exacerbated by pain or discomfort is likely to affect _any_ interactions a horse has.


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## scats (26 April 2017)

fburton said:



			I have no opinion about whether pain is involved or not in this case, but in general why would pain _not_ influence behaviour towards both people and other horses? (Or put another way, why would pain provoke aggression towards one and not the other?) I'd have thought grumpiness exacerbated by pain or discomfort is likely to affect _any_ interactions a horse has.
		
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I also thought this was a strange thing to say.  Yes pain shown when a horse is tacked up, for instance, fair enough (unless we know any extremely useful horses who can tack their stable mates up!)
But a generally grumpy horse around both people and horses, why would this indicate it not being a pain issue?
I can see a mistrust of humans if pain was specifically being caused by something they did- i.e. rough handling, but in the case of something like ulcers?


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## Ellietotz (26 April 2017)

scats said:



			I also thought this was a strange thing to say.  Yes pain shown when a horse is tacked up, for instance, fair enough (unless we know any extremely useful horses who can tack their stable mates up!)
But a generally grumpy horse around both people and horses, why would this indicate it not being a pain issue?
I can see a mistrust of humans if pain was specifically being caused by something they did- i.e. rough handling, but in the case of something like ulcers?
		
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Would ulcers make a horse aggressive towards other horses then? I'm still learning everything... I'm definitely not ruling out pain. Waiting for my vet to call currently to discuss things as well. 
The only horses she wasn't aggressive towards were her mum and another horse, both who she grew up with and was definitely not the boss of them, she knew her place. Now they are gone, she is in the same field and surrounded by horses she's now only known for just over a year who she bullied to the point fences got broken, horses get cornered and hurt so she's on her own now. She has been back with them now for a week to trial it and has been fine so far after being on her own for 6 months and only seeing them over the fence. She's now more independent and doesn't herd them/tell them off for being near her.


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## scats (26 April 2017)

Ellietotz said:



			Would ulcers make a horse aggressive towards other horses then? I'm still learning everything... I'm definitely not ruling out pain. Waiting for my vet to call currently to discuss things as well. 
The only horses she wasn't aggressive towards were her mum and another horse, both who she grew up with and was definitely not the boss of them, she knew her place. Now they are gone, she is in the same field and surrounded by horses she's now only known for just over a year who she bullied to the point fences got broken, horses get cornered and hurt so she's on her own now. She has been back with them now for a week to trial it and has been fine so far after being on her own for 6 months and only seeing them over the fence. She's now more independent and doesn't herd them/tell them off for being near her.
		
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I can only tell you from my experience of ulcers, but my friends mare was scoped in Leahurst a few years ago and found to have grace 3 ulcers.  What actually prompted my friend to get her scoped was that she had gone a little bit more girthy than normal, but also that she had cut herself off from the herd, strangely and any horse that approached her, she would warn away and move to be by herself.  Having once always been in with the herd, she suddenly started grazing alone in the field.  It was very strange. She actually went in for hormonal tests, but when these came back clear, the vet suggested scoping and sure enough...
 Although different from full aggression to other horses, this was a change in behaviour towards them.


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## fburton (26 April 2017)

Ellietotz said:



			... do a lot of research as to how I gain respect ...
		
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A worthy goal, but in my view a can of worms, for the following reason...

Broadly speaking there are two approaches to training horses, with cause and effect goin in opposite directions:

1) Work on changing a horse's behaviour to what you want and that people would describe as respectful, and
2) Establish respect and hope that the behaviour you want follows.

There are simple, clear and well understood ways to change behaviour. That is the approach I would take. You're dealing with something tangible (behaviour) and not whatever may be going on in your horse's mind. I suspect that is what LadySam is advising. "Go back to basics and teach her respect and manners with firm but fair groundwork and handling... patience and consistency" is excellent advice.

The second approach is problematic because all kinds of ways are suggested, some of which are frankly bonkers (dangerous and/or inhumane) in my opinion. So who is right? You are dealing with intangibles like how horses view people. Some advocates of the second approach, particularly those in the "Natural Horsemanship" camp will advise you to become _more_ like a horse and do things to get your horse to view you as one. Sometimes these approaches will work (or appear to); sometimes they fail catastrophically. That they work at all is probably down to the good nature and adaptability of horses.




			set boundaries
		
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Now, this is definitely worth doing. It means you are clear in your own mind where acceptable behaviour ends and unacceptable behaviour starts. When such boundaries and consistently enforced, it will become clear to the horse too! Horses are much happier with clear, fixed boundaries because they are predictable and unpredictability is unsettling for them: imagine sometimes being rewarded for an action and sometimes being punished.

Establishing respect is the end result of patient and consistent work - as LadySam said, it's not a quick, easy fix. It's not something you do _to_ the horse, it's something you achieve _from_ the horse. On the other hand, setting boundaries is easy and something you can start doing straight away.

Does this make sense?


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## Ellietotz (26 April 2017)

scats said:



			I can only tell you from my experience of ulcers, but my friends mare was scoped in Leahurst a few years ago and found to have grace 3 ulcers.  What actually prompted my friend to get her scoped was that she had gone a little bit more girthy than normal, but also that she had cut herself off from the herd, strangely and any horse that approached her, she would warn away and move to be by herself.  Having once always been in with the herd, she suddenly started grazing alone in the field.  It was very strange. She actually went in for hormonal tests, but when these came back clear, the vet suggested scoping and sure enough...
 Although different from full aggression to other horses, this was a change in behaviour towards them.
		
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That's really interesting. I've known her for about two and a half years, only been handling her for 6 months but she has always been like this when anyone has handled her and towards horses too so I am yet to notice anything particularly different in her usual behaviour but I still am going to get it all checked out. I need to work on myself and her though to be honest, especially if it isn't a physical problem.


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## Laika (26 April 2017)

When my mare was randomly off when being ridden, I did all the checks I possibly could to rule out any underlying issue. 

With her being generally so sweet natured and working so well, it seemed completely out the blue for her to have a reaction like that and I needed (for both of our sakes) to rule out any underlying medical conditions. Luckily for me, everything came back all clear but I definitely felt better moving forward and going back to ridden work after ruling out all these sort of ailments. It was simply a young pony having a tantrum. 

I think it'll definitely make you feel better getting everything ruled out, including ulcers. If it comes back all clear, like it did for me, at least then you can move forward and work on her behavioral issues. I did this with mine and although we're still working out some of the 'kinks' we've occurred, she's made fantastic progress. 

I promise you'll feel tonnes happier after getting it all checked out. Fingers crossed for you and I hope it works out okay .


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## ester (26 April 2017)

Until this horse gets a comprehensive veterinary work up anything else may as well be a sticking plaster on a gaping wound. She's shouted as loud as she can for years, whatever started it may have been resolved by now but no one really knows and it would be very unfair to try and resolve by training if she hurts.


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## Ellietotz (26 April 2017)

fburton said:



			A worthy goal, but in my view a can of worms, for the following reason...

Broadly speaking there are two approaches to training horses, with cause and effect goin in opposite directions:

1) Work on changing a horse's behaviour to what you want and that people would describe as respectful, and
2) Establish respect and hope that the behaviour you want follows.

There are simple, clear and well understood ways to change behaviour. That is the approach I would take. You're dealing with something tangible (behaviour) and not whatever may be going on in your horse's mind. I suspect that is what LadySam is advising. "Go back to basics and teach her respect and manners with firm but fair groundwork and handling... patience and consistency" is excellent advice.

The second approach is problematic because all kinds of ways are suggested, some of which are frankly bonkers (dangerous and/or inhumane) in my opinion. So who is right? You are dealing with intangibles like how horses view people. Some advocates of the second approach, particularly those in the "Natural Horsemanship" camp will advise you to become _more_ like a horse and do things to get your horse to view you as one. Sometimes these approaches will work (or appear to); sometimes they fail catastrophically. That they work at all is probably down to the good nature and adaptability of horses.


Now, this is definitely worth doing. It means you are clear in your own mind where acceptable behaviour ends and unacceptable behaviour starts. When such boundaries and consistently enforced, it will become clear to the horse too! Horses are much happier with clear, fixed boundaries because they are predictable and unpredictability is unsettling for them: imagine sometimes being rewarded for an action and sometimes being punished.

Establishing respect is the end result of patient and consistent work - as LadySam said, it's not a quick, easy fix. It's not something you do _to_ the horse, it's something you achieve _from_ the horse. On the other hand, setting boundaries is easy and something you can start doing straight away.

Does this make sense?
		
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Yes, all makes perfect sense. Thank you. I feel like I don't even know where to begin, it would be interesting to watch someone handle her, get her out, brush, tack up etc and how they react when she tries biting. What would you normally do? Perhaps I need the mind set of raising a child almost, being constructive, teaching and setting boundaries etc. Although, I am yet to raise a child too! I never let her take the p**s when ridden, I don't know why I do when in hand.


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## Ellietotz (26 April 2017)

Laika said:



			When my mare was randomly off when being ridden, I did all the checks I possibly could to rule out any underlying issue. 

With her being generally so sweet natured and working so well, it seemed completely out the blue for her to have a reaction like that and I needed (for both of our sakes) to rule out any underlying medical conditions. Luckily for me, everything came back all clear but I definitely felt better moving forward and going back to ridden work after ruling out all these sort of ailments. It was simply a young pony having a tantrum. 

I think it'll definitely make you feel better getting everything ruled out, including ulcers. If it comes back all clear, like it did for me, at least then you can move forward and work on her behavioral issues. I did this with mine and although we're still working out some of the 'kinks' we've occurred, she's made fantastic progress. 

I promise you'll feel tonnes happier after getting it all checked out. Fingers crossed for you and I hope it works out okay .
		
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What did you do to handle the behavioral issues? And thank you, me too!


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## wingedhorse (26 April 2017)

ester said:



			Until this horse gets a comprehensive veterinary work up anything else may as well be a sticking plaster on a gaping wound. She's shouted as loud as she can for years, whatever started it may have been resolved by now but no one really knows and it would be very unfair to try and resolve by training if she hurts.
		
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Or she could just be a dominant spoilt brat, who hasn't been taught manners by humans or other horses, and hasn't learnt behavioural expectations. And she has found aggressive behaviour generates the results she wants. 

If normally friendly horse changes behaviour - absolutely pain is first thought. But if a horse is happy in the field, but hasn't learnt manners and is aggressive to people and other horses and is consistent for years, it doesn't IMO have to be pain related.


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## thegreenergrass (26 April 2017)

I can't say whether it is or isn't pain - I would definitely want to rule this out first so really recommend you get her scoped! 

All I can say is that I know a yard with a string of homebred horses all from the same line. They made a few attempts to bring them on and sell them but have more or less been sat in the field together for years. The oldest is the one they did a lot with who is although a dominant horse, pretty easy to handle and good to ride. There is one who is about 8 which they have done a moderate amount with and again, he is feisty and dominant but fairly manageable. The other 3 who they haven't done much with are pretty much feral. Very dominant, aggressive, dangerous. Won't think twice about turning around to kick you if they decide they don't want you in the field, bitey, will pin their ears, walk straight through you etc. The worst of all of them you can't even lunge - as soon as you ask to back up she will try to strike, pin ears etc. On the circle she won't hesistate to charge into the middle, rear, strike, kick etc. 

I am not saying that it ISN'T pain, it very well could be and it is your (and the owners) duty to check those avenues first, but I won't be surprised if it just behavioural. 

I also think that while it's good to ask things on these forums to get advice, nobody truly knows your horse and can see the issues first hand so you could end up taking general advice which is wrong for you and your horse. Is there anybody in your area who you could bring out? A licensed NH specialist/horse behaviourist or similar should be able to give you a good idea of why she is acting like this and could arm you with some specific techniques.


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## Ellietotz (26 April 2017)

Ouch, I've just read this http://www.horsetrainingvideos.com/dangerous-behavior.htm 
It basically says every time the horse tries to bite you or kick, move it away by whacking it with a whip and hard so he can feel that it hurts!! That sounds awful!


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## Laika (26 April 2017)

My story is a little different in that my pony was only having issues when ridden. She never had any problems in her stable. She was going really well under the saddle and then she bolted one day and it became a bit of a recurrence after that. With my pony being on the young side, I didn't want any underlying issues to 'stamp' on her and ruin her experience of riding, so I got her checked out in every respect. It was definitely worth it to rule out any medical problems. 

When we began taking her back to the basic work she really tried to test me. She would face head on to me and even if I tried walking to her side to get her to move out onto a circle, she would keep moving head on to me. I started by walking around the school with her on a lunge line and walking away gradually. Walking back towards her side, getting her to stand, patting her and then walking back away until she learnt that it was okay to be away from my side. Now I only have to say 'Out' and she knows exactly what to do with no pressure being applied at all. I then began doing various lunging exercises and moved up from there. It's also important to break it up and do some inhand practice in the school. Basic walk-trot exercises in the school, which may come in handy for saddlers/vets/physio etc. I broke it up by going out for walks inhand and 'join up' with her to build trust and keep it varied. 

Try to vary your exercise, occupy your horse mentally and physically, definitely get a little plan made up so you know what you need to do every day. My situation was quite different, so I wouldn't know if my advice would be sound for your situation but definitely get a vet to give you the all clear before proceeding with behavioral tactics.


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## ester (26 April 2017)

wingedhorse said:



			Or she could just be a dominant spoilt brat, who hasn't been taught manners by humans or other horses, and hasn't learnt behavioural expectations. And she has found aggressive behaviour generates the results she wants. 

If normally friendly horse changes behaviour - absolutely pain is first thought. But if a horse is happy in the field, but hasn't learnt manners and is aggressive to people and other horses and is consistent for years, it doesn't IMO have to be pain related.
		
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Of course she could be, that is why I said no one knows because no one has ever got a vet to have a proper look at the horse. As such I think it would be totally unfair to the horse to come at it from a purely behavioural point of view until she has the all clear from anything physical especially given that it had a major accident some time ago. 
I also wouldn't entirely trust an owner who seems to have limited interest in the animal saying 'she has always been like that' as not just another way of shrugging the issue off.

Get the work up then you can deal with it appropriately for the findings, medically or behaviourally.


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## ycbm (26 April 2017)

Ellietotz said:



			Ouch, I've just read this http://www.horsetrainingvideos.com/dangerous-behavior.htm 
It basically says every time the horse tries to bite you or kick, move it away by whacking it with a whip and hard so he can feel that it hurts!! That sounds awful!
		
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It sounds a lot better than her taking a chunk out of your face from where I'm sitting.


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## Cortez (26 April 2017)

ycbm said:



			It sounds a lot better than her taking a chunk out of your face from where I'm sitting.
		
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Absolutely! You know, I don't really care whether the horse has a physical problem or not - horses must not attack you for ANY reason. If you are going to deal with a half-ton animal that is bigger, faster and infinitely tougher than you are it HAS to have manners. No biting, kicking, striking, barging, EVER, and if it takes using a whip to make that point then so be it.


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## Esmae (26 April 2017)

ycbm said:



			It sounds a lot better than her taking a chunk out of your face from where I'm sitting.
		
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Me too.


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## twiggy2 (26 April 2017)

ycbm said:



			It sounds a lot better than her taking a chunk out of your face from where I'm sitting.
		
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I would imagine a lot of horses would just bite harder and faster if treated the way mentioned.
OP the horse is not yours, your getting hurt, the horse is trying to tell you loud and clear that for some reason she does not enjoy you being around, just walk away and find something you will enjoy loaning.


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## Ellietotz (26 April 2017)

ycbm said:



			It sounds a lot better than her taking a chunk out of your face from where I'm sitting.
		
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Well, when you put it like that...  but they say not to hit because it makes them worse and then goes on to saying to hit them harder with a whip. So what's the difference between raising your voice and saying no with a slap on the shoulder or bum etc? Surely whacking them multiple times with a whip will just make them terrified of you? To be fair, I hope it wouldn't need to come to any of that as when she bit me on the head last week for leaning down to brush her legs, I growled at her and shouted 'don't you dare!' and she didn't even flinch after. Consistency is what I lack definitely though.


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## ycbm (26 April 2017)

Ellietotz said:



			Well, when you put it like that...  but they say not to hit because it makes them worse and then goes on to saying to hit them harder with a whip. So what's the difference between raising your voice and saying no with a slap on the shoulder or bum etc? Surely whacking them multiple times with a whip will just make them terrified of you? To be fair, I hope it would need to come to any of that as when she bit me on the head last week for leaning down to brush her legs, I growled at her and shouted 'don't you dare!' and she didn't even flinch after. Consistency is what I lack definitely though.
		
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They go to bite, you hit them once, hard, and mean it. No horse I've ever had has tried this more than once. They know I mean it.

Like Cortez, I don't care, on this point, if she is in pain or not, there is never an acceptable reason to bite a human.


PS please ignore the advice that you have been given that a horse cannot be in pain if it is nasty to other horses as well as to people. It's just not true.


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## Ellietotz (26 April 2017)

ycbm said:



			They go to bite, you hit them once, hard, and mean it. No horse I've ever had has tried this more than once. They know I mean it.

Like Cortez, I don't care, on this point, if she is in pain or not, there is never an acceptable reason to bite a human.


PS please ignore the advice that you have been given that a horse cannot be in pain if it is nasty to other horses as well as to people. It's just not true.
		
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I guess I will have to toughen up then. 

I also agree and thought that even if she was in pain, she should still have respect for others. 

I've taken in all advice but certainly am not ruling anything out. I will get everything checked whilst also restarting her training. She's no longer the cute baby that gets her way.


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## ycbm (26 April 2017)

Ellietotz said:



			I guess I will have to toughen up then. 

I also agree and thought that even if she was in pain, she should still have respect for others. 

I've taken in all advice but certainly am not ruling anything out. I will get everything checked whilst also restarting her training. She's no longer the cute baby that gets her way.
		
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You may actually find it makes her a lot happier. Most horses like boundaries. Some can be very disturbed by being given too much responsibility for their own behaviour. If you can't get the muzzle in the instant she bites you, don't hit her head.  The most effective place to smack her would probably be her shoulder, is where they 'hit' each other as a correction.

Try being a bit tougher most of the time, a LOT tougher if she threatens you, stay totally consistent, and see what happens. Stay safe!


I don't go round routinely whacking horses, but one that shows as little respect as this one, in pain or not in pain, I would carry a whip when handling, for the meantime.


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## Ellietotz (26 April 2017)

ycbm said:



			You may actually find it makes her a lot happier. Most horses like boundaries. Some can be very disturbed by being given too much responsibility for their own behaviour. If you can't get the muzzle in the instant she bites you, don't hit her head.  The most effective place to smack her would probably be her shoulder, is where they 'hit' each other as a correction.

Try being a bit tougher most of the time, a LOT tougher if she threatens you, stay totally consistent, and see what happens. Stay safe!


I don't go round routinely whacking horses, but one that shows as little respect as this one, in pain or not in pain, I would carry a whip when handling, for the meantime.
		
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Thank you. I did once happen to have a whip in my hand and she got annoyed with me again being in her space and stomped on my foot. I managed to slap her on the side a couple of times as pushing didn't work and she wouldn't get off. Pure disrespect. 

I have just spoken to the vet who has known her for years and always dealt with the owners horses. She said she doesn't think it's ulcers, not sure why, but she's going to have a think about what tests she thinks would be best to start with. I've just told the owner, fingers crossed she helps contribute...


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## Pinkvboots (26 April 2017)

It's no good setting boundaries and telling her off before you rule out PAIN first because if she is hurting somewhere due to just about anything no amount to of hitting shouting and any other methods you read about will help.

If you really care about this horse just get a vet out tell them everything the horse does and get them to do the necessary checks until then I would leave her alone before she seriously does you some damage.

and reading your last paragraph above about the vet saying she doesn't think it's ulcers I think I would be getting another vet maybe someone who doesn't know the horse at all, it may not be ulcers but I bet her behaviour is pain related and sounds like it's been the same for a lot of years.


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## fburton (26 April 2017)

Ellietotz said:



			I feel like I don't even know where to begin, it would be interesting to watch someone handle her, get her out, brush, tack up etc and how they react when she tries biting. What would you normally do?
		
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First of all, I'd avoid putting myself unnecessarily in a position where I'm liable to get bitten (on evidence of past behaviour), as others have already advised.

I'd want to find out a bit about the situations and actions that provoke biting. That will guide my response. For example, if it's obvious the horse has learned that threatening to bite gets a desired reaction, I may simply not react. That's a less common scenario though. My standard reaction to mild to moderately aggressive biting is to present a object that they run into hard - usually a knee or elbow. Timing needs to be good, and you need to be aware of the horse the whole time. Usually you can see these moves to bite coming in plenty of time. The idea is the horse punishes itself, its discomfort coming as a direct result of its action. The instantaneous response makes for quick learning. I also prefer to keep emotion out of it completely and find the end result is more reliable that way. That's just my personal experience; I won't be critical of other people who do things differently with good results.


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## tda (26 April 2017)

I haven't read the whole thread,,but first of all stop putting yourself in situations you can't control.
One you get her out, tie her up, short, so she can't get to you to bite! And Wear your hat at all times, 
I'm sure someone else has said, you need to have something to hand to block her/Bite on


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## Cortez (26 April 2017)

Pinkvboots said:



			.....if she is hurting somewhere due to just about anything no amount to of hitting shouting and any other methods you read about will help.
		
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Not true. Teaching manners works; biting people is neither normal nor common. I have had downright dangerous stallions here who learned not to bite pretty darn quick, and never did it again.

The methods used were robust, and effective.


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## ester (26 April 2017)

I have no doubt that you can teach a sore horse to suck it up and behave, I have certainly told my own to do so on some occasions when treating stuff/when he is uncomfortable. I am unsure how I feel about that ethically currently given the history this horse has.


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## Ellietotz (26 April 2017)

Tonight, as I was leading her out from the field, she had her ears forward and every time I just so much as looked at her, she put her ears back, look away, ears go forward again and so on, this happens every time. What do I do then? I assume just carry on and ignore it? Then I tied her up short to give her a brush, sometimes enjoyed it, sometimes put her ears back at me, what do I do if she doesn't try to bite and just looks at me with her ears back? And because she didn't want to be out, she kept putting her ears back and moving her bum into me so then there was no room between her and the fence and I couldn't continue brushing her where I wanted to so I constantly had to push her back. She just isn't listening to anything I say or do. I raised my voice and she thought I was going to hit her, it's ridiculous.


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## ycbm (26 April 2017)

Stop looking at her, she's finding it threatening.

Allow her to express opinions that don't hurt you, move you out of her space, or stop you doing what you are doing. Don't do unnecessary things (e.g. mane pulling, brushing where she isn't dirty)  that she is trying to tell you she doesn't like.

If she moves over to squash you, poke her hard in the ribs well before she gets anywhere near doing that. Swing her head towards you at the same time, it will move her bum away. She should not be swinging into your space at all, don't let her.

MAKE her listen. Make it to uncomfortable for her not to listen. Squashing you into a fence is very aggressive and cannot be allowed any more than biting.


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## stencilface (26 April 2017)

I've found a hoofpick handy when a horse tries to squash you. Being squashed is not nice and a quick prod with a hoofpick has worked in the past for me. 

Have you read the Black Stallions Filly? You need a hot potato up your sleeve!


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## Queenbee (26 April 2017)

OP, I am really concerned that you have bitten off more than you can chew (excuse the pun).  With the best will in the world, as much as you are asking for advice and researching etc (which is good), it is clear that you have neither the skills, experience or instinct to deal with this horse - whether the root cause be physical, behavioural or both, this horses issues seem way out of your skill set, even the basics with your latest post, you should be able to handle - instead you had what sounds to be a 'normal' day with this mare:




			Tonight, as I was leading her out from the field, she had her ears forward and every time I just so much as looked at her, she put her ears back, look away, ears go forward again and so on, this happens every time. What do I do then? I assume just carry on and ignore it? Then I tied her up short to give her a brush, sometimes enjoyed it, sometimes put her ears back at me, what do I do if she doesn't try to bite and just looks at me with her ears back? And because she didn't want to be out, she kept putting her ears back and moving her bum into me so then there was no room between her and the fence and I couldn't continue brushing her where I wanted to so I constantly had to push her back. She just isn't listening to anything I say or do. I raised my voice and she thought I was going to hit her, it's ridiculous.
		
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and had absolutely no idea where to start, how to react, what to do - instead, you came back to the forum and recounted the series of events.  I am sorry, but this mare is in my opinion well outside of your capabilities and you are putting yourself in  danger and not helping the horse by continuing.

Furthermore, just because a vet has known a horse all its life - the vet is in absolutely no position to declare over the phone without examining the horse that 'she doesn't think its ulcers'  until the vet sees this horse and does a full and thorough work up - she has no idea what could or not be the cause.


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## ycbm (26 April 2017)

I have a lot of agreement with Queenbee's post, OP. Please stay safe.


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## {97702} (26 April 2017)

OP I have read through the whole thread and have formed a view on what causes this behaviour - but quite honestly I would walk away from the mare ASAP, life is too short to put up with a horse as nasty as that, whatever the cause!  Riding is supposed to be a relaxing leisure interest


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## little_critter (26 April 2017)

When you set her boundaries and tell her to move over / not bite etc etc are you just doing the actions and saying "move over" or are you really being 'the boss'. 
You need to puff yourself up and really project "I'm the boss" to her. You need to really MEAN what you say. Don't be wishy washy. Make a request an expect the response from her. 

But importantly, don't discipline her in anger. Be firm, be fair, be clear. You are educating her.


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## Pigeon (26 April 2017)

Ellietotz said:



			Tonight, as I was leading her out from the field, she had her ears forward and every time I just so much as looked at her, she put her ears back, look away, ears go forward again and so on, this happens every time. What do I do then? I assume just carry on and ignore it? Then I tied her up short to give her a brush, sometimes enjoyed it, sometimes put her ears back at me, what do I do if she doesn't try to bite and just looks at me with her ears back? And because she didn't want to be out, she kept putting her ears back and moving her bum into me so then there was no room between her and the fence and I couldn't continue brushing her where I wanted to so I constantly had to push her back. She just isn't listening to anything I say or do. I raised my voice and she thought I was going to hit her, it's ridiculous.
		
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I see a lot of rude horses and they have all sorts of pain excuses made (or, separation anxiety seems to be a fave!), but actually a horse can be in mild pain and still not kick/bite/trample you. I might feel stand-offish or grumpy when I'm sick but that doesn't make it acceptable to punch someone! I agree that pain is the first thing to look at, but basic manners should be in place for everyone's safety, not least the poor vet!! 

You need to take care of yourself. No kisses on the nose ever, when you are handling her she needs to be tied up at all times, and tied up short. Wear a hat and just try not to put yourself in a situation where she can bite. I don't think getting in a fight with her is the way forward, I think avoiding situations that would need such punishment is the way forward. I wouldn't be grooming her loose in the field. My horse had ulcers and I respected that and didn't try to pull his rugs straight (they hate that!) or really groom him or handle unnecessarily until he had scoped clear. 

It does sound very ulcer-y, but I know a couple of real grumps who didn't have ulcers. Whether they had other health issues or not I don't know. You could do a Gastrogard trial if the scope is not an option, I would say I noticed a difference within a week. Ovaries is another thought, and have you tried her on Regumate? But again, I would be reluctant to be paying for such expensive treatments for a horse that wasn't actually mine - you need to have a talk with the owners. You could do a bute trial but bute can aggravate ulcers. I'm assuming she is sound, how does she go under saddle? Is she nappy/backwards? How are her canter transitions?

You sound like you are doing your best!! Tbh though if I was in your shoes I would find another horse to loan. I think she will be a lot of work, it may be medical and expensive, she may never change, and really it's the owner's responsibility.


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## Ellietotz (26 April 2017)

Thank you everyone.  I really do want to try. Either that or I just carry on as I am, enjoying her when we are out on a hack and just staying clear of her mouth and ignoring it. I just wanted to bond with her and I just feel like she hates me. When I put her back tonight, she was so affectionate and kept following me around. It's always on her terms. Every other time I just feel like I'm using her. I want her to be happy.


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## Dave's Mam (26 April 2017)

I'm veering towards the spoilt baby side of things, but you MUST rule out pain, not just a guess at no ulcers, proof of no ulcers & then move on.  Her manners are appalling & even I would have stood up to her by now.  Don't put your face in the way of her mouth, nor any other part of you, keep her tied short or even better cross tied when you work with her & a strong, singular reprimand when she is bargy.


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## Mrs B (26 April 2017)

EllieT,  I've also got a horse who can bite. 

I have been with horses nearly 50 years and in a lifetime of handling, riding and running a yard it's the first time I've really been bitten, beyond a nip. 

I merely leant on his door to check he had enough hay. I saw no warning at all and it was over in a second. This damage was done through thick winter gloves. 

I know I've posted this photo before but I hope everyone can forgive me for posting it again because I really, really hope it will make you see what they can do. My hand has healed pretty well thanks to a very good surgeon at the John Radcliffe, but I still have a line of scar tissue and a missing bit where the muscle should be.

My horse also can't socialise with other horses and is an 'in your face' animal, only wanting things to happen on his terms. When you're on his back, he loves hacking out, ears forward. But it's almost like he has to express every feeling as it occurs, heart on sleeve. I have a strong suspicion that he was hand-raised as his ability to speak 'horse' is zero.

I have taken advice from a HHO member on this thread and I now have a much better relationship with him. He makes an aggressive move towards me, he's reprimanded. But I will never trust him not to revert. It's like he just can't help himself ...

PLEASE don't allow this to happen to your face. I would (personally) say hand the horse back. There are many fun horses out there to enjoy. I do hope you now take the plunge to go out and find one of them. Horses are meant to be a fun hobby


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## Dave's Mam (26 April 2017)

And I say this as a person who got flattened by a bargy pony.


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## Pigeon (26 April 2017)

I'm like you - people telling me I can't do something only makes me more determined to prove them wrong, but maybe you can learn from my mistakes  

Your safety is the most important thing, there are other easier horses out there, I really suggest you google 'horse bite'. Or don't, because it's gory, but you really need to understand that a bite can do serious damage, you could literally loose a finger. There's an awful pic where a bite from a horse has snapped someone's wrist. 

You need to forget the bond thing. Sometimes a working partnership has to be enough. A 'bond' takes years, not months to develop. Horses like clear, consistent boundaries. She needs to respect you before she will like you! Do you have an instructor who will come and show you how to handle her?


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## Dave's Mam (26 April 2017)

Mrs B said:



			EllieT,  I've also got a horse who can bite. 

I have been with horses nearly 50 years and in a lifetime of handling, riding and running a yard it's the first time I've really been bitten, beyond a nip. 

I merely leant on his door to check he had enough hay. I saw no warning at all and it was over in a second. This damage was done through thick winter gloves. 

I know I've posted this photo before but I hope everyone can forgive me for posting it again because I really, really hope it will make you see what they can do. My hand has healed pretty well thanks to a very good surgeon at the John Radcliffe, but I still have a line of scar tissue and a missing bit where the muscle should be.

My horse also can't socialise with other horses and is an 'in your face' animal, only wanting things to happen on his terms. When you're on his back, he loves hacking out, ears forward. But it's almost like he has to express every feeling as it occurs, heart on sleeve. I have a strong suspicion that he was hand-raised as his ability to speak 'horse' is zero.

I have taken advice from a HHO member on this thread and I now have a much better relationship with him. He makes an aggressive move towards me, he's reprimanded. But I will never trust him not to revert. It's like he just can't help himself ...

PLEASE don't allow this to happen to your face. I would (personally) say hand the horse back. There are many fun horses out there to enjoy. I do hope you now take the plunge to go out and find one of them. Horses are meant to be a fun hobby  






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Ouch.  Be careful EllieT


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## Ellietotz (26 April 2017)

Pigeon said:



			I see a lot of rude horses and they have all sorts of pain excuses made (or, separation anxiety seems to be a fave!), but actually a horse can be in mild pain and still not kick/bite/trample you. I might feel stand-offish or grumpy when I'm sick but that doesn't make it acceptable to punch someone! I agree that pain is the first thing to look at, but basic manners should be in place for everyone's safety, not least the poor vet!! 

You need to take care of yourself. No kisses on the nose ever, when you are handling her she needs to be tied up at all times, and tied up short. Wear a hat and just try not to put yourself in a situation where she can bite. I don't think getting in a fight with her is the way forward, I think avoiding situations that would need such punishment is the way forward. I wouldn't be grooming her loose in the field. My horse had ulcers and I respected that and didn't try to pull his rugs straight (they hate that!) or really groom him or handle unnecessarily until he had scoped clear. 

It does sound very ulcer-y, but I know a couple of real grumps who didn't have ulcers. Whether they had other health issues or not I don't know. You could do a Gastrogard trial if the scope is not an option, I would say I noticed a difference within a week. Ovaries is another thought, and have you tried her on Regumate? But again, I would be reluctant to be paying for such expensive treatments for a horse that wasn't actually mine - you need to have a talk with the owners. You could do a bute trial but bute can aggravate ulcers. I'm assuming she is sound, how does she go under saddle? Is she nappy/backwards? How are her canter transitions?

You sound like you are doing your best!! Tbh though if I was in your shoes I would find another horse to loan. I think she will be a lot of work, it may be medical and expensive, she may never change, and really it's the owner's responsibility.
		
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I have spoken to the vet and she is going to call me back tomorrow after having a think about what is best to do going forward. I told the owner of the prices of everything we might need to test for and she said not to bother as she is just a bully, there's nothing wrong with her. Still, I'm going to make my own decision on that. She was on bute recently from cutting her leg and it getting infected from the mud, it was terrible and I had to fight her to treat it, it took hours. Even then, the bute didn't change her behaviour, she had two sedatives when the vet cleaned the wound and even though she was out of it, she did everything she could to put her ears back and give me a face when I stroked her neck. She is sound, absolutely fine under the saddle, she thoroughly enjoys going on a hack and wanting to gallop everywhere. She's also very much on her terms when ridden though as well but not as bad as I don't let her then, if I want to trot or not gallop off, I will. Just wish I was the same on foot!


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## DabDab (26 April 2017)

Assuming she's not in pain and it is just behavioural (which is a big assumption given her demeanour and history), I still don't think she's the horse for you. She needs minimalist, business-like handling, not someone fussing with her and trying to make her love them. You on the other hand, want a horse you can love and fuss over.

Maybe you can find a horse more suitable for you?


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## Pigeon (26 April 2017)

DabDab said:



			You on the other hand, want a horse you can love and fuss over.

Maybe you can find a horse more suitable for you?
		
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A gelding lol 

(Sorry mare owners, I'm only kidding!!!)


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## Ellietotz (26 April 2017)

Mrs B said:



			EllieT,  I've also got a horse who can bite. 

I have been with horses nearly 50 years and in a lifetime of handling, riding and running a yard it's the first time I've really been bitten, beyond a nip. 

I merely leant on his door to check he had enough hay. I saw no warning at all and it was over in a second. This damage was done through thick winter gloves. 

I know I've posted this photo before but I hope everyone can forgive me for posting it again because I really, really hope it will make you see what they can do. My hand has healed pretty well thanks to a very good surgeon at the John Radcliffe, but I still have a line of scar tissue and a missing bit where the muscle should be.

My horse also can't socialise with other horses and is an 'in your face' animal, only wanting things to happen on his terms. When you're on his back, he loves hacking out, ears forward. But it's almost like he has to express every feeling as it occurs, heart on sleeve. I have a strong suspicion that he was hand-raised as his ability to speak 'horse' is zero.

I have taken advice from a HHO member on this thread and I now have a much better relationship with him. He makes an aggressive move towards me, he's reprimanded. But I will never trust him not to revert. It's like he just can't help himself ...

PLEASE don't allow this to happen to your face. I would (personally) say hand the horse back. There are many fun horses out there to enjoy. I do hope you now take the plunge to go out and find one of them. Horses are meant to be a fun hobby  






Click to expand...

Oh wow.... that looks extremely painful. She's never bit anyone like that, it's usually just a warning but of course, if she thinks she is one of us, there's nothing to say she won't. She sounds very much like yours, having to show feelings to everything and she definitely does. What did you do and how long did it take for him to gain respect?


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## Meowy Catkin (26 April 2017)

Pigeon said:



			A gelding lol 

(Sorry mare owners, I'm only kidding!!!)
		
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I almost got the wet fish out again LOL!


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## Ellietotz (26 April 2017)

Pigeon said:



			I'm like you - people telling me I can't do something only makes me more determined to prove them wrong, but maybe you can learn from my mistakes  

Your safety is the most important thing, there are other easier horses out there, I really suggest you google 'horse bite'. Or don't, because it's gory, but you really need to understand that a bite can do serious damage, you could literally loose a finger. There's an awful pic where a bite from a horse has snapped someone's wrist. 

You need to forget the bond thing. Sometimes a working partnership has to be enough. A 'bond' takes years, not months to develop. Horses like clear, consistent boundaries. She needs to respect you before she will like you! Do you have an instructor who will come and show you how to handle her?
		
Click to expand...

I'll pass on googling it I think! I had an instructor out for the first time the other week, it went very well and she taught me how to push through her strops when ridden if she didn't want to do something. I will have to get her to teach me how to handle her properly as well. It's easy to tie her up, brush, tack up and just ignore the faces but when it comes to actually training her not to do that, I am useless.


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## Pinkvboots (26 April 2017)

Cortez said:



			Not true. Teaching manners works; biting people is neither normal nor common. I have had downright dangerous stallions here who learned not to bite pretty darn quick, and never did it again.

The methods used were robust, and effective.
		
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I know they can work but if you suspect a horse is experiencing pain and the behaviour is probably due to pain would it not make sense to try and eliminate the cause first


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## Ellietotz (26 April 2017)

DabDab said:



			Assuming she's not in pain and it is just behavioural (which is a big assumption given her demeanour and history), I still don't think she's the horse for you. She needs minimalist, business-like handling, not someone fussing with her and trying to make her love them. You on the other hand, want a horse you can love and fuss over.

Maybe you can find a horse more suitable for you?
		
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I want to learn to be able to handle her properly though, I'm not one to give up so quickly. It's only been six months afterall. It makes me miss my boy even more though  I never struggled with him. At first I did because again, I was weak and put no rules in place so he knew he could run back to the field with his bridle half on. I stopped letting him misbehave and he never did it again. It only took the one time and he learnt.


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## Pigeon (26 April 2017)

Okay that's a good start! It's so helpful to have a pro involved. Just tell your instructor what she does, and ask her to watch you get her in from the field, get her ready and turn her back out. Then ask them what you need to do differently. Does she know that you've been bitten a couple of times?

When she strops under saddle, what are the usual circumstances and behavior?

It may be worth having instructor talk to the owners on your behalf.


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## Pinkvboots (26 April 2017)

Ellietotz said:



			I'll pass on googling it I think! I had an instructor out for the first time the other week, it went very well and she taught me how to push through her strops when ridden if she didn't want to do something. I will have to get her to teach me how to handle her properly as well. It's easy to tie her up, brush, tack up and just ignore the faces but when it comes to actually training her not to do that, I am useless.
		
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you are really contradicting yourself you said in a post before this one that she loves being ridden and is no problem, yet you say here that she has strops when ridden and your getting help for it, she sounds like one very unhappy horse it seems she hates every aspect of everyday life this screams of discomfort and pain to me, try and think and listen to her I think she is giving you enough to go on and seems to be getting worse.

an example is one of my horses years ago started to get really sluggish when ridden he just didn't want to move, I then remember walking toward him once with the saddle and he laid his ears flat back and looked very unhappy, this basically told me he disliked the saddle, had it checked and after finding a saddle fitter that knew whatever they were doing, turns out the saddle was far to narrow and causing a lot of pain when ridden.


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## Mrs B (26 April 2017)

Ellietotz said:



			What did you do and how long did it take for him to gain respect?
		
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It was very painful, after the shock wore off! 

Honestly? It's an ongoing thing to make him remember but if I go into his box, he has to back up. 

If I put down his feed, he can only approach when I say so. And unwanted behaviour gets a slap or a growl and a bite gets a full on belt. Immediately.

When I'm grooming and his instinct is to groom me back, I have a knotted up lead rope attached to the bars of his box for him to chew on instead of me. And he really NEEDS that. He just can't adjust his responses appropriately. 

I love him and he's a grand horse but I will never trust him. 

Tine frame? About 48 hours.


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## Ellietotz (26 April 2017)

Pigeon said:



			Okay that's a good start! It's so helpful to have a pro involved. Just tell your instructor what she does, and ask her to watch you get her in from the field, get her ready and turn her back out. Then ask them what you need to do differently. Does she know that you've been bitten a couple of times?

When she strops under saddle, what are the usual circumstances and behavior?

It may be worth having instructor talk to the owners on your behalf.
		
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Yes she saw her trying to bite me. She was checking her over, checking the saddle, took it off and put it back on, did the girth up etc, she didn't move at all. Then I do it and she's horrible, making faces etc. We didn't really cover that topic as we didn't have a lot of time but I will ask for some advice. Usual circumstances are normally just when being asked to do something if she doesn't want to at the time, not just going forwards but slowing down too. We could be trotting and she wants to go into a canter, I tell her no and bring her back to a trot and she strops, sometimes gets so grumpy she will stop all together or lift her bum as if to buck. I could ask her to walk and if she doesn't want to, same happens again. If I just sit there and wait for her to walk on herself, no problem at all! On her terms as usual.


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## Dave's Mam (26 April 2017)

My pony bit me once on the wrist while being led in.  I had another horse in my other hand, so I am not ashamed to say he got a swift kick to his shoulder.  He's not done it since.


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## Nudibranch (26 April 2017)

Ellietotz as someone else has said already, forget the bond thing and with your instructor concentrate on building a respectful working relationship. Some horses just don't bond with people. I've owned 9 horses over 30 years and of them, probably two have had a fairytale type bond with me. One is the big man I've had since a foal so it's not that surprising.  However my two best under saddle couldn't really have given a stuff unless I was bringing food. They were polite, easy to do and fantastic ridden, but did they follow me round the field and enjoy cuddles? No. Didn't make me care any less about them. If you want a guaranteed bond and lots of hands-on, get a dog.


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## daydreamer (26 April 2017)

What a frustrating thread to read  

OP it really doesn't sound like you can actually *enjoy* spending time with this horse. The whole thing seems like it is a tense and continuous barrage of disagreements, anxiety and uncertainty. This will surely be unpleasant for both of you. 

It sounds like you would enjoy a horse to spend time with, grooming and pampering etc and this horse really doesn't want that! Just like some people don't get on with each other and won't be friends the same is true of horses. It does seem there are some issues with this mare that need sorting out but *you* don't have to sort this out and without meaning to sound rude it sounds like it might need someone more experienced than you to sort it out. Please don't let stubborness or pride keep you in this arrangement until you get hurt or you forget that this is supposed to be a hobby you enjoy!


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## Ellietotz (26 April 2017)

Pinkvboots said:



			you are really contradicting yourself you said in a post before this one that she loves being ridden and is no problem, yet you say here that she has strops when ridden and your getting help for it, she sounds like one very unhappy horse it seems she hates every aspect of everyday life this screams of discomfort and pain to me, try and think and listen to her I think she is giving you enough to go on and seems to be getting worse.

an example is one of my horses years ago started to get really sluggish when ridden he just didn't want to move, I then remember walking toward him once with the saddle and he laid his ears flat back and looked very unhappy, this basically told me he disliked the saddle, had it checked and after finding a saddle fitter that knew whatever they were doing, turns out the saddle was far to narrow and causing a lot of pain when ridden.
		
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Sorry, should have added, this ridden behaviour is only when in the school. When out hacking, she loves it and we both have fun.


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## Ellietotz (26 April 2017)

Mrs B said:



			It was very painful, after the shock wore off! 

Honestly? It's an ongoing thing to make him remember but if I go into his box, he has to back up. 

If I put down his feed, he can only approach when I say so. And unwanted behaviour gets a slap or a growl and a bite gets a full on belt. Immediately.

When I'm grooming and his instinct is to groom me back, I have a knotted up lead rope attached to the bars of his box for him to chew on instead of me. And he really NEEDS that. He just can't adjust his responses appropriately. 

I love him and he's a grand horse but I will never trust him. 

Tine frame? About 48 hours.
		
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Oh wow, that's quick. Somehow I don't think it'll be that easy for me! Although today when I told her off for trying to get me, she was chewing her lead rope instead, is there actually a reason for that then?


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## Pinkvboots (26 April 2017)

Ellietotz said:



			Sorry, should have added, this ridden behaviour is only when in the school. When out hacking, she loves it and we both have fun.
		
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most horses prefer hacking to going in the school it's more interesting and it's usually easier than schooling, 
what does she do in the school?


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## Queenbee (26 April 2017)

Ellietotz said:



			Sorry, should have added, this ridden behaviour is only when in the school. When out hacking, she loves it and we both have fun.
		
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If you are adamant about keeping going with this - may I make a suggestion.  First, get a full work up from the vet, if you can't afford that or the owners won't pay - walk away.  Unless you can rule out pain - and Im not saying it is pain, and certainly not wholly, you can't possibly keep riding this horse - or at least I would not be able to, the niggle in my mind of 'maybe' would be too much.  

Second, once pain is either ruled out or identified and treated.  Don't tackle too much at once, if this mare hates the school but loves her hacks - just hack her and work on her attitude - keep her in her 'happy place' until her other behavior is more manageable and you have more respect from her and therefore more trust and a better bond.  

Do not try and do it all at once with this horse - she will be overwhelmed.  Ignore the schooling for now - no need to pick that fight and make her do something that clearly ticks her off.   You have plenty of other behaviour to sort first. Get the all clear from the vet then pick your battles wisely and keep her tasks manageable - do not do the unnecessary


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## LadySam (27 April 2017)

Righto, I'm all caught up. Stupid international timezones.

Before I get on with it, I just want to clarify a couple of things.



fburton said:



			I have no opinion about whether pain is involved or not in this case, but in general why would pain _not_ influence behaviour towards both people and other horses? (Or put another way, why would pain provoke aggression towards one and not the other?) I'd have thought grumpiness exacerbated by pain or discomfort is likely to affect _any_ interactions a horse has.
		
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Good question/observation.  Broadly, that is right.  And as we have covered well, we can't 100% rule out pain or hormones with this horse until there are conclusive results.  But I'm not talking broadly here, I'm looking closely at solid examples of this horse's history and behaviour (such as we have) and considering the likelihood of pain over behaviour.  If this horse's behaviour towards other horses was based in pain, I would expect something much more like what Scats described with their horse - a change in normal behaviour, being withdrawn (a big hint) and warning other horses to keep their distance.  Clearly wanting to be alone.  OP's horse is not withdrawn - quite the opposite - has not deviated from her normal behaviour at all, and does not merely give warning signs to other horses but


Ellietotz said:



			She doesn't warn them away, she will actually chase them with her mouth open until she gets them.
		
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This isn't a bit of pain grumpiness, this is 100% textbook, classic herd behaviour.  This is exactly what happens when a new horse joins a herd - The newbie is chased (and chased and bitten and kicked and chased) out of the herd and has to wait to be invited back in.  It happens, but only when the herd is good and ready.  And as we have seen with this mare, nothing happens until she is good and ready.  I get the very strong impression from her particular behaviour she does not want to be alone - she wants to be in charge.



fburton said:



			You are dealing with intangibles like how horses view people. Some advocates of the second approach, particularly those in the "Natural Horsemanship" camp will advise you to become _more_ like a horse and do things to get your horse to view you as one.
		
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Sorry fburton, I promise I'm not trying to single you out!  But I couldn't let that one pass.  NH isn't about getting your horse to view you as a horse - they must view you as a human and therefore the one always in charge, whoever the human may be.  OP's mare viewing her as a horse IS a big part of the problem. It's simply supposed to facilitate a way of communicating in a way the horse understands so that you don't resort to tactics of extreme force, intimidation and fear in your training.  My view of whether it's successful or not depends on whether it's handled sensitively and sensibly, and properly tempered with other, more conventional methods.  IMHO, the Roberts and Parellis of the world have dressed up nuggets of good, old fashioned horsemanship in theatricality and illusion so they can look like magicians and build nice little empires built on expensive videos and stupid bloody sticks you buy for 50 quid.  There's truth in there, but my god you have to sift through some crap to get to it!

But we digress.  That's a whole other conversation.  (And if anyone wants to have it, please start another thread so we can stay on topic here.)

OP.  Many people on this thread have advised you to walk away from this horse.  I think this is something you should seriously consider.  It would seem the owners have buggered her up from the get-go and they know it.  It's resulted in deeply set behavioural problems that would challenge a pro.  IIRC, the folks who took her on just before you were pros or pro/am and they handed her back quick smart.  Wisely.  Life's too short, etc.  Plus, she isn't the horse you dreamed of having.  You wanted a lovely affectionate horse just like your old boy.  This mare is just... not that.  I get that it's not in your nature to be a quitter and you want to learn, but you really should think about this very seriously, especially given that she's not actually your horse.

However.  While you consider this course of action, you've got a problem to deal with.  Your safety is at risk.  And you could certainly do with upping your handling skills anyway.  So let's look at that.

I'm going to talk about just you for now.  Partly because you're half of this equation and partly because I have to go and play with horses in a minute and am running a bit short on time. o Sorry.  I'll write more on horse stuff later.)

Girl, you gots to change your mindset!  Solving this aaaaall begins with you.  The way of thinking you need to develop is not second nature to you as it is with many of us here, so you are going to have to start making conscious choices about _your_ behaviour, and you will need to be as firm, fair and consistent with yourself as you're going to be with the horse.



Ellietotz said:



			Perhaps I need the mind set of raising a child almost, being constructive, teaching and setting boundaries etc.
		
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NO.  YOU NEED THE MINDSET OF RAISING A BLOODY HORSE!!   Setting boundaries, yes, definitely.  As fburton said, this is something you can do right now.  Let's leave off talking about constructive teaching for a bit.  We'll get back to that.

Let's start by busting a few of your fantasies.  You said you wanted to start again and be tough with her.  So do it.

* Forget about bonding.  Forget about being friends and kissies being nicey nicey.  This happens a long, long way down the line if it ever happens at all.  Just stop it.  Love and devotion?  Pah!  As someone else said, if you want all that get a dog.  You're handling a huge, dangerous, unpredictable animal.  Act like it.

* Stop being polite to her like you would be to a person.  She doesn't need the bubble wrap.  Bloody horse, etc.

* Stop giving her powers of human reason.  Stop describing her as sometimes "loving".  She's a herd animal who lives outside and rolls in poo.  Does she ever come up to you and, say, rub her head on you?  This isn't love.  She's treating you with the same respect she has for a fence post.  This stops now.  This is a boundary.

* Stop thinking like this:



Ellietotz said:



			Ouch... It basically says every time the horse tries to bite you or kick, move it away by whacking it with a whip and hard so he can feel that it hurts!! That sounds awful!
		
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Sweet baby jesus.  Just because you give a horse a short, sharp shock with a whip from time to time, it doesn't mean you're like that monstrous Welsh girl that beat up that little pony.  You ARE going to have to do this occasionally.  Think of it this way - any sort of "pain" you would inflict is nothing compared to what another horse would do to her in a herd situation, and she'd handle that just fine.  More whip talk later.

My time's up, so some final quick do's and don'ts about you (not horse) for now:

DO "puff yourself up" like someone else here mentioned.  Go back and read that post again.  If you're not feeling it, fake it 'till you make it.  Choose to go in acting like a boss with strong body language.  Watch that you maintain it.  Be consistent.

DO watch what the owner does with her.  You say the horse behaves with her?  Watch what she does and learn from it.

DON'T beat yourself up if you don't get it right the first time.  Learn, process, move on, get it right next time.  If you need a bit of time to feel like crap, wait until you're away from the horse or she'll read it.  You are the boss lady around her now.  Always.

More later.  Have at it.


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## Ellietotz (27 April 2017)

Pinkvboots said:



			most horses prefer hacking to going in the school it's more interesting and it's usually easier than schooling, 
what does she do in the school?
		
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What do you mean, her behaviour or the exercise? Most of the time we argue because she wants to jog round instead of walk and then gets stressy when I actually make her trot even though she is doing it already but once we have pushed through it, she enjoys whizzing around over a few jumps, but again, on her terms, when I try to steady her, she just throws her head around and full on strops out. Hence why I have decided to get an instructor because I don't always want to have to hack out! The instructor taught me how to keep her going forwards calmly when she tries to stop and eventually, she was really relaxed and working in an outline. Only our first lesson though but will continue for sure.


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## Ellietotz (27 April 2017)

Queenbee said:



			If you are adamant about keeping going with this - may I make a suggestion.  First, get a full work up from the vet, if you can't afford that or the owners won't pay - walk away.  Unless you can rule out pain - and Im not saying it is pain, and certainly not wholly, you can't possibly keep riding this horse - or at least I would not be able to, the niggle in my mind of 'maybe' would be too much.  

Second, once pain is either ruled out or identified and treated.  Don't tackle too much at once, if this mare hates the school but loves her hacks - just hack her and work on her attitude - keep her in her 'happy place' until her other behavior is more manageable and you have more respect from her and therefore more trust and a better bond.  

Do not try and do it all at once with this horse - she will be overwhelmed.  Ignore the schooling for now - no need to pick that fight and make her do something that clearly ticks her off.   You have plenty of other behaviour to sort first. Get the all clear from the vet then pick your battles wisely and keep her tasks manageable - do not do the unnecessary
		
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I am still going to get her checked, definitely and that's a good idea, I will just hack her for now and do what makes her happy so she doesn't associate me with doing something she hates. She's lovely to me after a hack, loves having a sleep while I brush her off but before, she isn't happy of course because she doesn't know if she's going in the school or going out. Good advice though, I will aim to keep her in her 'happy place' too. Thank you.


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## ester (27 April 2017)

Ellie I remember when you posted about how distraught you were when this horse was going to be going elsewhere and how much you loved her etc.

I think it is important to consider if you still feel the same 6 months down the line and if so whether that is a) clouding your judgement b) in some way making you keen that the horse loves you back/you have a bond? 

Also I know you say you won't give up but I think you need to consider that if you are to make this work you need to be super consistent, is this going to be hampered by the owner/does she handle her to? 

We own a mare that was essentially home bred and babied something ridiculous. She has never bitten but had little concept of personal space and would rear when led, she didn't keep it up long with a little direction. Sometimes she pushes things too far, she had incrementally started to consider kicking when belly brushing and mum had missed it until I pointed out it wouldn't be long before she got hurt and that she didn't used to behave like that. I put a hat on and told her once, sorted. Fwiw she is not dominant by nature but has sometimes found herself there then doesn't have a clue what she should be doing!


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## Amye (27 April 2017)

I wasn't going to comment on this thread as I don't have half the experience of some people giving advice here. And I had to learn to set boundaries and stuff when I got my horse 18 months ago..

However, recently I heard about a very serious incident someone I know had with a horse which could have been very nasty (non-riding incident). And it just reminded me of how dangerous these animals are.

I just want to ask you to please BE CAREFUL. I've read through this whole thread and it doesn't sound like you have the experience to deal with this mare.. I'm sorry. Whether it's pain or behavioural she has absolutely no respect for you and it's dangerous.  

I agree with a lot of the posters on here. I would seriously consider walking away, it's not 'giving up' if you can't handle the horse. It's being sensible. It sounds like you want a cuddly horse you can mess around with and stroke and pat and love. But this mare shows all signs that she really does not like any of these things. So you're never going to get your cuddly horse with her. 

If you really are persistent and want to stay... she needs to be checked over by a vet, which should be coming out of the owners pocket not yours. Once she's confirmed as pain-free, IMHO you need to get an instructor out or a behavourist to show you how to work with this horse. It sounds like she needs very firm handling and very strict boundaries... it's all well and good coming and posting on the forum but I think you need someone there to see what she does and show you exactly how to react.. For example when she swings her bum and you, you MAKE her swing it back - a horse is not allowed to squash you and if you have to whack her to make her do it do it!! She spends 23 hours of her day in a field doing as she pleases, the hour or so she's with you she can do as she's told.

If you do get her sorted, it's more than likely, like I said, you're not going to be able to cuddle her or anything. You'll probably always need to be firm and strict, which it doesn't sound like you really want to be.

I'm sorry if that sounds harsh  Please don't get hurt trying to deal with this horse. I know you've spent 6 months trying with her and you enjoy hacking her and feel attached but there are SO many other horse out there you can enjoying hacking on who will respect you and be well mannered. If the owners can't see that what she's doing is dangerous and aren't willing to pay for vets or help you with this I would look for another horse to enjoy.


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## Tiddlypom (27 April 2017)

The best advice on this thread is to walk away. This mare sounds very tricky, and would challenge an experienced handler. The OP does not have the right mindset, skills or timing to deal with her, but could offer a nicer horse a good and loving home.

There was a lovely uber experienced lady round here, who could get the best out of any horse. She had an evil witch of a mare, who she was convinced that she could 'bring round'. She laughed at her farrier, who told her to shoot it, and joked that he was getting old and past it. Not long after, she was found with the mare in the field or stable (can't remember which) with catastrophic head injuries. She lived on for a good long while, but never regained consciousness.

OP, please just walk away, and find something much more suitable.


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## southerncomfort (27 April 2017)

There is some excellent advice on this thread which I won't repeat however, their is another aspect that I think OP needs to take on board.

Personally I prefer a mare although some can trickier than others.  Not all mares will be a huge challenge but I've found with every mare I've ever owned that I've had to work hard to forge a partnership with them.  By that I don't mean showering them with kisses and cuddles every day....we might enjoy that, but it isn't what a horse needs particularly and some downright hate it.

With this mare it sounds like OP is absolutely DESPERATE to make the horse love her.  Well...I don't believe that a horse can love a human.  At the very best we can have a partnership and companionship with them and if you get that with a mare then you are lucky because once you have a mare on your side they will walk through fire for you.  I don't believe that this horse likes, wants, needs or tolerates any kind of human idea of affection.  She doesn't want that kind of partnership with a human, what she wants is consistent handling and a life where the rules are clear and everything is black and white.    Really it's not that different to humans.  Some of us are very clingy and need to be hugged and reassured by our fellow humans, while some of us are a bit stand-offish and prefer to be left alone.  And sometimes we meet someone that we just don't get along with and no matter how hard we try to make friends, it doesn't work because the personalities are too different.

OP - I sense a real clash of personalities between you and this mare.  You want to shower her with affection which she doesn't appreciate and she wants firm, consistent handling which you are unable to give her right now.  You want to be her best mate while frankly she doesn't seem to enjoy your company.  Sorry if that sounds harsh...it isn't necessarily that either of you is doing anything 'wrong' just that you don't get on, you clash and you want different things.

Putting this together with this mares history, I personally think you should walk away with pride intact before things go catastrophically wrong.  But if you do decide to persevere, you HAVE to get some proper diagnostic tests done by your vet to rule out any pain or medical problem that could be affecting her behaviour.  Because riding a horse who may be in pain is unethical and indefensible.  

And then you need to get out a professional who understands horse behaviour and can show you how to handle this mare consistently before you get hurt.


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## southerncomfort (27 April 2017)

There is some excellent advice on this thread which I won't repeat however, their is another aspect that I think OP needs to take on board.

Personally I prefer a mare although some can trickier than others.  Not all mares will be a huge challenge but I've found with every mare I've ever owned that I've had to work hard to forge a partnership with them.  By that I don't mean showering them with kisses and cuddles every day....we might enjoy that, but it isn't what a horse needs particularly and some downright hate it.

With this mare it sounds like OP is absolutely desperate to make the horse love her.  Well...I don't believe that a horse can love a human.  At the very best we can have a partnership and companionship with them and if you get that with a mare then you are lucky because once you have a mare on your side they will walk through fire for you.  I don't believe that this horse likes, wants, needs or tolerates any kind of human idea of affection.  She doesn't want that kind of partnership with a human, what she wants is consistent handling and a life where the rules are clear and everything is black and white.    Really it's not that different to humans.  Some of us are very clingy and need to be hugged and reassured by our fellow humans, while some of us are a bit stand-offish and prefer to be left alone.  And sometimes we meet someone that we just don't get along with and no matter how hard we try to make friends, it doesn't work because the personalities are too different.

OP - I sense a real clash of personalities between you and this mare.  You want to shower her with affection which she doesn't appreciate and she wants firm, consistent handling which you are unable to give her right now.  You want to be her best mate while frankly she doesn't seem to enjoy your company.  Sorry if that sounds harsh...it isn't necessarily that either of you is doing anything 'wrong' just that you don't get on, you clash and you want different things.

There are lots of horses out there that do enjoy human affection and interaction and I think you'd be a lot happier finding one that enjoys your company.


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## Ellietotz (27 April 2017)

ester said:



			Ellie I remember when you posted about how distraught you were when this horse was going to be going elsewhere and how much you loved her etc.

I think it is important to consider if you still feel the same 6 months down the line and if so whether that is a) clouding your judgement b) in some way making you keen that the horse loves you back/you have a bond? 

Also I know you say you won't give up but I think you need to consider that if you are to make this work you need to be super consistent, is this going to be hampered by the owner/does she handle her to? 

We own a mare that was essentially home bred and babied something ridiculous. She has never bitten but had little concept of personal space and would rear when led, she didn't keep it up long with a little direction. Sometimes she pushes things too far, she had incrementally started to consider kicking when belly brushing and mum had missed it until I pointed out it wouldn't be long before she got hurt and that she didn't used to behave like that. I put a hat on and told her once, sorted. Fwiw she is not dominant by nature but has sometimes found herself there then doesn't have a clue what she should be doing!
		
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I'm willing to be very consistent and going to learn to change myself as well. Luckily, it is just me that handles her so I don't have to worry about someone else causing us to backtrack. She will definitely test me though and it's going to take a lot of patience! I haven't quite decided, I know I love her but I just want us to work well together. Only time will tell.


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## AandK (27 April 2017)

southerncomfort said:



			There is some excellent advice on this thread which I won't repeat however, their is another aspect that I think OP needs to take on board.

Personally I prefer a mare although some can trickier than others.  Not all mares will be a huge challenge but I've found with every mare I've ever owned that I've had to work hard to forge a partnership with them.  By that I don't mean showering them with kisses and cuddles every day....we might enjoy that, but it isn't what a horse needs particularly and some downright hate it.

With this mare it sounds like OP is absolutely desperate to make the horse love her.  Well...I don't believe that a horse can love a human.  At the very best we can have a partnership and companionship with them and if you get that with a mare then you are lucky because once you have a mare on your side they will walk through fire for you.  I don't believe that this horse likes, wants, needs or tolerates any kind of human idea of affection.  She doesn't want that kind of partnership with a human, what she wants is consistent handling and a life where the rules are clear and everything is black and white.    Really it's not that different to humans.  Some of us are very clingy and need to be hugged and reassured by our fellow humans, while some of us are a bit stand-offish and prefer to be left alone.  And sometimes we meet someone that we just don't get along with and no matter how hard we try to make friends, it doesn't work because the personalities are too different.

OP - I sense a real clash of personalities between you and this mare.  You want to shower her with affection which she doesn't appreciate and she wants firm, consistent handling which you are unable to give her right now.  You want to be her best mate while frankly she doesn't seem to enjoy your company.  Sorry if that sounds harsh...it isn't necessarily that either of you is doing anything 'wrong' just that you don't get on, you clash and you want different things.

There are lots of horses out there that do enjoy human affection and interaction and I think you'd be a lot happier finding one that enjoys your company.
		
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I've followed this thread with interest and I have to wholeheartedly agree with the above.

I don't buy into the it's cleary not pain posts, the OP has had the horse 6 months and just because her behaviour has not changed does not mean it is not pain.  There is every possibility that this horse is just a spoilt homebred that has no boundaries, BUT before accepting that, if OP really wants to stick with the mare, then it would be foolish not to rule out the possibility of pain.  

As the post I have quoted states, I fear there is too much of a personality clash for this to be a long term success.  This is no dig at you OP!  There are plenty of horses out there who are more than happy to have a human who kisses and cuddles them, but even with training this mare will never be one of them.   

OP I feel for you, as you are clearly attached to this mare and are trying to take all said on this thread on board.  But put your pride aside, owning/loaning a horse is expensive and time consuming but with the right partner it is so much fun!  And I fear you are missing out on this vital element.


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## Wagtail (27 April 2017)

Apart from the ulcers issue (which I still think may be at the bottom of the mare's problems exascerbated by the early spoiling of her as a youngster), I just can't see why the OP is persevering with a horse that is so aggressive, when they obviously want a 'loving' natured horse. Personally, I can't be doing with any horse that is aggressive. If it was a share, then I'd just walk away.


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## Cortez (27 April 2017)

Ellietotz said:



			I'm willing to be very consistent and going to learn to change myself as well. Luckily, it is just me that handles her so I don't have to worry about someone else causing us to backtrack. She will definitely test me though and it's going to take a lot of patience! I haven't quite decided, I know I love her but I just want us to work well together. Only time will tell.
		
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You are not listening. It is very likely that you are going to get hurt. Worrying about backtracking? To where, precisely? Time will not tell you anything that you haven't already been told on this thread. Please LISTEN to people who are (probably) a lot older and more experienced with this sort of horse and situation.


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## wingedhorse (27 April 2017)

Wagtail said:



			Apart from the ulcers issue (which I still think may be at the bottom of the mare's problems exascerbated by the early spoiling of her as a youngster), I just can't see why the OP is persevering with a horse that is so aggressive, when they obviously want a 'loving' natured horse. Personally, I can't be doing with any horse that is aggressive. If it was a share, then I'd just walk away.
		
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OP is a child? There might not be available, affordable access to wider range of share horses?


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## Queenbee (27 April 2017)

Cortez said:



			You are not listening. It is very likely that you are going to get hurt. Worrying about backtracking? To where, precisely? Time will not tell you anything that you haven't already been told on this thread. Please LISTEN to people who are (probably) a lot older and more experienced with this sort of horse and situation.
		
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Whilst I have given my advice on what to do with this mare if you decide to forge ahead - I agree with Cortez and stand by my initial post, this is not the mare for you and is beyond your skill set.  

OP I also agree with whoever said that you seem desperate to have a mare that loves you.  This is not that horse.  This is a horse that will - regardless of if you iron out the bad, will always be independence of you, its not my little pony, there are some that you can fuss and pamper... this is not one of those horses.

Personally, for so many reasons, this is not the right horse for you.  I can see only one reason for you staying on - and that is clear that you dearly care for this horse.  Problem is, you have a horse that is dangerous - whatever its reasons, and these behaviours are ingrained, they are part of that horse - to change this pattern is a huge undertaking for a highly experienced competent rider/owner/handler - it takes time, patience, skill, blood, sweat and tears and a lot of money to rule out every possible physical cause.  This is not knocking your good intentions OP, but so many very experienced people on here are saying good intentions are not, and never will be enough.  Infact, the longer this goes on - the more it will reinforce the mare's behaviour.  The owner has either created a monster or allowed monstrous behaviour to continue.  The owner is happy for you to risk your wellbeing and spend your money on their horse, and to be fair - the vet sounds very unprofessional making a hash diagnosis/ruling out ulcers from a phone call.  It is a recipe for disaster and the victim of the disaster will always be you.  

I am not advocating at all that you buy the horse, but the only way I would be risking my life and spending my money on such a horse would be if it belonged to me.  I have taken on a monster or two in the past and this has always been my standpoint.  

You have no support from the owner, and quite frankly the owner should be shot for loaning out a horse like this to someone so totally incapable of handling it.

Please consider everything that has been said carefully on here OP, there are so many other wonderful horses out there, that you could enjoy and bond with.


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## ester (27 April 2017)

wingedhorse said:



			OP is a child? There might not be available, affordable access to wider range of share horses?
		
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OP is in her 20s and not a child. Thank goodness I think the advice would be to definitely leave it if they were.


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## ycbm (27 April 2017)

wingedhorse said:



			OP is a child? There might not be available, affordable access to wider range of share horses?
		
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It doesn't matter if the OP is nine or ninety. Lack of available horses isn't a reason to risk having your face bitten off by the only one on offer to you, when it also makes you miserable every time you are near it.


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## Gloi (27 April 2017)

Just heard today about somebody getting their ear bitten off  so take care OP


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## SEL (27 April 2017)

I have been following this thread with interest.

OP - I own a horse who was scheduled to be PTS as dangerous as a 4 year old. She had been hand reared from 6 weeks when they lost her dam and didn't learn the correct human vs horse behaviours. She absolutely knows I am not a horse, but doesn't appreciate that the biting, kicking type of behaviours she can do with her field mates are not acceptable to a 5'4" human.

It has been my job over the past 2 years to teach her what is and is not acceptable - and it is a work in progress. This horse will live out her years with me because I will not take the risk of passing her onto someone who doesn't enforce those boundaries and could get hurt. I have suffered bruises from bites and kicks when I let my guard down and one of the staff at the livery yard came close to being badly hurt when they were complacent and didn't follow instructions.

Firstly - the pain issue

THis horse had ulcers. She is a good doer and not your normal type but as soon as I said she had been hand-reared the vet said it was likely. The stress of premature weaning and the various moves, new owners etc were likely to have brought them on. 
She also has PSSM. Her muscular pain no doubt adds another complication to her behaviour, but I faffed around her when she was first diagnosed and she took the 'p' - so now she still has to show basic manners even if she's feeling stiff. She can tell me she's hurting without removing chunks from me - but I have to make sure I listen.

Its worth saying that I didn't loose school this horse until 18 months after I'd had her. I just didn't trust her without the control of a lunge rope. I still don't turn my back on her when I'm poo picking the field and if she's eating then she is left well alone.

When she misbehaved she is corrected instantly (voice normally, although she's had a belt before with whatever I've had in my hand) and then left. If she then goes on to act nicely she gets a 'good girl'. 

OP - I am in my 40s, I've dealt with challenging horses before and I've been hurt by them before. One of my oldest friends is a vet and her advice in the early days was not to get so fixated on sorting this horse that I let my pride rule and got badly hurt as a result. We can't fix all the damage humans cause sadly.


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## Dave's Mam (27 April 2017)

SEL said:



			I have been following this thread with interest.

OP - I own a horse who was scheduled to be PTS as dangerous as a 4 year old. She had been hand reared from 6 weeks when they lost her dam and didn't learn the correct human vs horse behaviours. She absolutely knows I am not a horse, but doesn't appreciate that the biting, kicking type of behaviours she can do with her field mates are not acceptable to a 5'4" human.

It has been my job over the past 2 years to teach her what is and is not acceptable - and it is a work in progress. This horse will live out her years with me because I will not take the risk of passing her onto someone who doesn't enforce those boundaries and could get hurt. I have suffered bruises from bites and kicks when I let my guard down and one of the staff at the livery yard came close to being badly hurt when they were complacent and didn't follow instructions.

Firstly - the pain issue

THis horse had ulcers. She is a good doer and not your normal type but as soon as I said she had been hand-reared the vet said it was likely. The stress of premature weaning and the various moves, new owners etc were likely to have brought them on. 
She also has PSSM. Her muscular pain no doubt adds another complication to her behaviour, but I faffed around her when she was first diagnosed and she took the 'p' - so now she still has to show basic manners even if she's feeling stiff. She can tell me she's hurting without removing chunks from me - but I have to make sure I listen.

Its worth saying that I didn't loose school this horse until 18 months after I'd had her. I just didn't trust her without the control of a lunge rope. I still don't turn my back on her when I'm poo picking the field and if she's eating then she is left well alone.

When she misbehaved she is corrected instantly (voice normally, although she's had a belt before with whatever I've had in my hand) and then left. If she then goes on to act nicely she gets a 'good girl'. 

OP - I am in my 40s, I've dealt with challenging horses before and I've been hurt by them before. One of my oldest friends is a vet and her advice in the early days was not to get so fixated on sorting this horse that I let my pride rule and got badly hurt as a result. We can't fix all the damage humans cause sadly.
		
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Wise words.


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## ester (27 April 2017)

SEL said:



			OP - I am in my 40s, I've dealt with challenging horses before and I've been hurt by them before. One of my oldest friends is a vet and her advice in the early days was not to get so fixated on sorting this horse that I let my pride rule and got badly hurt as a result. We can't fix all the damage humans cause sadly.
		
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Very well said, I have wondered but not come up with the right way to put it whether part of ellie's want to carry on is to fix/save the horse given that it is an animal that no one has much bothered with in the past.


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## Beausmate (27 April 2017)

This mare sounds like a bored, miserable, mixed-up horse with limited social skills and possibly physical issues too.  It seems she doesn't really know quite what to make of OP and sees her as a bit of a nuisance and someone to be pushed around.

This horse will never be 'loving' and friendly, so is this what you really want, OP?  To put yourself at risk over a horse that is never going to be what you really want? 

What are you hoping to achieve with this horse in the longer term?

I have a horse, I have had him since he was five and he was a seriously nasty piece of work back then. He would make your mare seem like a real sweetheart!  I couldn't go anywhere near him with feed - he had his bucket chucked under the gate.  He HATED being groomed and could kick me (and did - frequently!) even if I was standing by his shoulder, he also kicked when I tried to catch him (he was always caught eventually).  He would barge, bite and body-slam anyone, my OH had his ear bitten because he walked past the stable.  That was it - horse had his feed, so everyone can back right off!  If he pulls faces, he means it, they are not idle threats.

Almost all of his attitude problems stem from inconsistent handling by previous owners, with the rest of his problems coming from an injury long since fixed.

It is nearly twenty years now (eep!) and I still have the miserable, old git.  He has mellowed somewhat in his later years and we rub along ok - he's my mate now but I don't trust him any further than I could throw him and he will never be truly friendly.  I spoil him rotten really, but there is a line and there are very definite consequences for crossing it!

I always wanted a cuddly horse, so I bought one of those as well - you can't change their basic nature after all. 

So, OP what_do_you really want?  If this mare was lined up with the other horses you have known in your life, would you still pick her over any of them?


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## Ellietotz (27 April 2017)

Beausmate said:



			This mare sounds like a bored, miserable, mixed-up horse with limited social skills and possibly physical issues too.  It seems she doesn't really know quite what to make of OP and sees her as a bit of a nuisance and someone to be pushed around.

This horse will never be 'loving' and friendly, so is this what you really want, OP?  To put yourself at risk over a horse that is never going to be what you really want? 

What are you hoping to achieve with this horse in the longer term?

I have a horse, I have had him since he was five and he was a seriously nasty piece of work back then. He would make your mare seem like a real sweetheart!  I couldn't go anywhere near him with feed - he had his bucket chucked under the gate.  He HATED being groomed and could kick me (and did - frequently!) even if I was standing by his shoulder, he also kicked when I tried to catch him (he was always caught eventually).  He would barge, bite and body-slam anyone, my OH had his ear bitten because he walked past the stable.  That was it - horse had his feed, so everyone can back right off!  If he pulls faces, he means it, they are not idle threats.

Almost all of his attitude problems stem from inconsistent handling by previous owners, with the rest of his problems coming from an injury long since fixed.

It is nearly twenty years now (eep!) and I still have the miserable, old git.  He has mellowed somewhat in his later years and we rub along ok - he's my mate now but I don't trust him any further than I could throw him and he will never be truly friendly.  I spoil him rotten really, but there is a line and there are very definite consequences for crossing it!

I always wanted a cuddly horse, so I bought one of those as well - you can't change their basic nature after all. 

So, OP what_do_you really want?  If this mare was lined up with the other horses you have known in your life, would you still pick her over any of them?
		
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Why did you stick with him if he was horrible? Everyone here is saying that leaving is the best thing to do but you stuck to yours for now 20 odd years so why? You knew you could get hurt and so did everyone else making the advice to walk away who decided to take on a badly raised horse. What made you do it if you had loads of better choices? I've had her for 6 months and I do still have fun, she does still make me happy, most of the time they are idle threats, it's very rare she actually opens her mouth and properly tries, she's never properly bitten down on me, only hit me with her teeth. Regardless if it's really aggressive or not, I still want to change this of course as I don't want it to happen at all but I do love her and want to work with her. Either that or she will probably get pts. She has some issues and I believe we can work them out, she has never done anything truly horrible to me and I probably let her anyway so I have myself to blame too. I don't think walking away is always the answer and it doesn't have to be. Like you said, you were getting hurt, most people who have replied have got hurt and no one walked away, they stuck with it. What's the difference now? I may get hurt but I may also get hurt when a great big soppy horse spooks and crushes me to death. We take the risk when we want to be around horses. Being hurt obviously is more likely with horses like mine but I've committed to that and giving up is exactly what she wants and I don't.


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## fburton (27 April 2017)

LadySam said:



			Sorry fburton, I promise I'm not trying to single you out!  But I couldn't let that one pass.  NH isn't about getting your horse to view you as a horse - they must view you as a human and therefore the one always in charge, whoever the human may be.  OP's mare viewing her as a horse IS a big part of the problem. It's simply supposed to facilitate a way of communicating in a way the horse understands so that you don't resort to tactics of extreme force, intimidation and fear in your training.  My view of whether it's successful or not depends on whether it's handled sensitively and sensibly, and properly tempered with other, more conventional methods.  IMHO, the Roberts and Parellis of the world have dressed up nuggets of good, old fashioned horsemanship in theatricality and illusion so they can look like magicians and build nice little empires built on expensive videos and stupid bloody sticks you buy for 50 quid.  There's truth in there, but my god you have to sift through some crap to get to it!
		
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Sorry if I gave a misleading impression, LadySam. I wasn't saying that all (or even most) NH people buy into this idea, just that it's more prevalent in NH compared to "traditional/BHS" horsemanship (for example). Those who talk about leadership in terms of a how the supposed "herd leader" behaves and/or advise being the dominant one and using dominant body language are the ones who tend to advocate horse-emulating approaches and being part of "the herd".

For some examples, see:

http://www.horsechannel.com/horse-training/become-your-horses-herd-leader-through-groundwork.aspx

https://consideringthehorse.wordpress.com/2014/04/01/herd-dynamics-hierachy-and-behavior/

http://www.horses-and-ponies.com/horsemanship/behaviour/become-the-alpha-horse/

Quote: On top of that, many trainers, clinicians and instructors have begun basing training techniques on the replication of certain actions or behaviors of horses that are (often perceived as) the dominant members of the herd. These actions and techniques are designed to ultimately have a horse see the handler as the dominant or alpha horse, and thus cause the horse to become submissive and easy to work with.

... although in this article Mark Rashid is actually arguing _against_ the "alpha theory".

There are many other examples out there still. However, I'm glad to say this point of view has waned somewhat over the last decade or so, though it's still popular in certain quarters, probably more in the US than here.

Of course, whenever I am working with a horse I want to be the one _in charge_ - but as myself and not some notional "herd leader" or alpha mare. One can be in control and get respectful behaviour without consideration for equine social structures. And, of course, there are very good ways to achieve those things that don't involve playing dominance games or acting in _any_ way like a horse.

I do wholeheartedly agree with you on the theatricality/magic point!


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## Queenbee (27 April 2017)

Ellietotz said:



			Why did you stick with him if he was horrible? Everyone here is saying that leaving is the best thing to do but you stuck to yours for now 20 odd years so why? You knew you could get hurt and so did everyone else making the advice to walk away who decided to take on a badly raised horse. What made you do it if you had loads of better choices? I've had her for 6 months and I do still have fun, she does still make me happy, most of the time they are idle threats, it's very rare she actually opens her mouth and properly tries, she's never properly bitten down on me, only hit me with her teeth. Regardless if it's really aggressive or not, I still want to change this of course as I don't want it to happen at all but I do love her and want to work with her. Either that or she will probably get pts. She has some issues and I believe we can work them out, she has never done anything truly horrible to me and I probably let her anyway so I have myself to blame too. I don't think walking away is always the answer and it doesn't have to be. Like you said, you were getting hurt, most people who have replied have got hurt and no one walked away, they stuck with it. What's the difference now? I may get hurt but I may also get hurt when a great big soppy horse spooks and crushes me to death. We take the risk when we want to be around horses. Being hurt obviously is more likely with horses like mine but I've committed to that and giving up is exactly what she wants and I don't.
		
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Probably because he actually belonged to her Ellie, I doubt the poster would ever have considered loaning her horse out to some unsuspecting person without the appropriate skill set.  It was keep and persevere or shoot.  


most of the time they are idle threats, it's very rare she actually opens her mouth and properly tries, she's never properly bitten down on me, only hit me with her teeth. Regardless if it's really aggressive or not, I still want to change this of course as I don't want it to happen at all but I do love her and want to work with her. Either that or she will probably get pts. She has some issues and I believe we can work them out.  

Is it just me or are other posters on here losing the will to live, having a major head desk moment and thinking - go ahead and stick with it and get bit, kicked or worse you silly silly girl?  20 or not, you are behaving like an utter airhead, your head is in the clouds and I am sure you are not.  Please, please, please for the love of god!! Think what you would say to a friend in this position.


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## Arzada (27 April 2017)

Queenbee said:



			Is it just me or are other posters on here losing the will to live, having a major head desk moment
		
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I haven't contributed but I think the confusion lies in the thread title and the OP's OP in which she states that she has been bitten. I read these to mean that she had been bitten but obviously I was incorrect in my understanding of the written word. She has now clarified the situation with  'it's very rare she actually opens her mouth and properly tries, she's never properly bitten down on me, only hit me with her teeth.' I think she means that the mare has only hit her with her teeth and not bitten her as previously stated. The OP seems OK with this. Then again I could be wrong (again)


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## DabDab (27 April 2017)

Op, people are only responding to your opening post and subsequent posts that state you are uncomfortable with the horse's behaviour, you don't really know how to help her and you are troubled by the fact that she seems to dislike you. This, along with your description of her behaviour and the fact that you don't actually own her is leading people to suggest that she is not a very good match for you, even with improved behaviour, and therefore the obvious solution to your problem is to end the loan and find a more suitable horse to enjoy. 

If you wish to persevere with her then that's fine, but the fact remains that the most obvious solution to the problem stated in your op is to give her back and move on.


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## Queenbee (27 April 2017)

Arzada said:



			I haven't contributed but I think the confusion lies in the thread title and the OP's OP in which she states that she has been bitten. I read these to mean that she had been bitten but obviously I was incorrect in my understanding of the written word. She has now clarified the situation with  'it's very rare she actually opens her mouth and properly tries, she's never properly bitten down on me, only hit me with her teeth.' I think she means that the mare has only hit her with her teeth and not bitten her as previously stated. The OP seems OK with this. Then again I could be wrong (again)
		
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I agree... I think a far more accurate and less misleading thread title would be 

'Getting seriously fed up with being threatened to be bitten by a horse that never really properly tries to bite me, but threatens to and gives me little kisses with her teeth but has not taken a hunking chunk out of me' - 

If only HHO allowed that much space for titles the forum would be a much less confusing and misleading world.


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## cundlegreen (27 April 2017)

Ellietotz said:



			Why did you stick with him if he was horrible? Everyone here is saying that leaving is the best thing to do but you stuck to yours for now 20 odd years so why? You knew you could get hurt and so did everyone else making the advice to walk away who decided to take on a badly raised horse. What made you do it if you had loads of better choices? I've had her for 6 months and I do still have fun, she does still make me happy, most of the time they are idle threats, it's very rare she actually opens her mouth and properly tries, she's never properly bitten down on me, only hit me with her teeth. Regardless if it's really aggressive or not, I still want to change this of course as I don't want it to happen at all but I do love her and want to work with her. Either that or she will probably get pts. She has some issues and I believe we can work them out, she has never done anything truly horrible to me and I probably let her anyway so I have myself to blame too. I don't think walking away is always the answer and it doesn't have to be. Like you said, you were getting hurt, most people who have replied have got hurt and no one walked away, they stuck with it. What's the difference now? I may get hurt but I may also get hurt when a great big soppy horse spooks and crushes me to death. We take the risk when we want to be around horses. Being hurt obviously is more likely with horses like mine but I've committed to that and giving up is exactly what she wants and I don't.
		
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Trust me, if you HAD been bitten properly, you'd know all about it, and it sounds like it's only a matter of time. I took on a very troubled hackney gelding several years ago. Badly brought up, never socialised with any horse except his dam, kept as a stallion until 4, and locked away in box for most of the day. He had extreme "fight" rather than flight tendencies, and bit me twice, despite my best efforts. he was like a striking snake, and got appropriate extreme measures back. (the elbow is a good one!) He actually turned out a nice little horse, but I couldn't trust him for over a year. In the end, he respected me, and I rewarded him for that. He was however, very volatile, and had to be fed carefully. I sold him with full disclosure to an experienced hackney home, and they were very successful with him, until they decided to change his feed to something calmer. The result was that he savaged their old pony, and they were on the verge of putting him down. until they changed back the feed, and he reverted back to a managable horse.


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## stencilface (27 April 2017)

The only reason for keeping a horse like this that you don't own (Or even you do own!) is if the horse is seriously talented and you can ignore the poor stable manners because it's a dream to compete. For the average rider doing it as a hobby things are meant to be fun. It costs the same to keep a horse you enjoy as one that you don't, seems a no brainer to me. I'm an amateur, my horse is a darling, if he wasn't I wouldn't have got him, let alone kept him.


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## Arzada (27 April 2017)

Queenbee said:



			I agree... I think a far more accurate and less misleading thread title would be 

'Getting seriously fed up with being threatened to be bitten by a horse that never really properly tries to bite me, but threatens to and gives me little kisses with her teeth but has not taken a hunking chunk out of me' - 

If only HHO allowed that much space for titles the forum would be a much less confusing and misleading world.
		
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We think alike. If only the subjects of some of these threads would start their own threads eg 'Getting seriously fed up with love, cuddles and kisses now!!'


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## ester (27 April 2017)

TBF much of the loss of will to live if it does exist is probably because of the number of threads about this horse's issues which seem to end up going round in circles. When the OP was advised to steer well clear before she loaned the mare


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## SEL (27 April 2017)

OP - I wouldn't have had the experience or patience to take on my troubled mare 20 years ago when I was your age. Tbh I wouldn't have wanted something like her either!

Nowadays I find her and her challenges interesting to work with. She's an intelligent little horse (that's not always a good thing) & teaching her and seeing her progress is something I enjoy. I'm not interested in competing any more and I've always liked training. Plus I have the disposable income to get another one if I decide I want to do more.

There is a significant level of stress in owning a horse like this though. I dread going on holiday knowing the yard are looking after her because if she spots a weakness then she's vile.


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## Nudibranch (27 April 2017)

OP as far as I can tell, you don't have the experience to be able to put this horse right. There, that's as blunt as I can be. Other people who have shared their stories may have. You may well just make her worse.


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## Ellietotz (27 April 2017)

Arzada said:



			We think alike. If only the subjects of some of these threads would start their own threads eg 'Getting seriously fed up with love, cuddles and kisses now!!'
		
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This did make me laugh. The posts she would write... "why can't I go back to being fat and lazy"


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## Ellietotz (27 April 2017)

SEL said:



			OP - I wouldn't have had the experience or patience to take on my troubled mare 20 years ago when I was your age. Tbh I wouldn't have wanted something like her either!

Nowadays I find her and her challenges interesting to work with. She's an intelligent little horse (that's not always a good thing) & teaching her and seeing her progress is something I enjoy. I'm not interested in competing any more and I've always liked training. Plus I have the disposable income to get another one if I decide I want to do more.

There is a significant level of stress in owning a horse like this though. I dread going on holiday knowing the yard are looking after her because if she spots a weakness then she's vile.
		
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I know she wouldn't have been something I'd have chosen but my original thread when she came into the picture explained how I don't have field rent or hay to pay no matter how much I insist so I took the opportunity. Seeing her progress is something I find extremely rewarding too and to be honest, tonight, I took the advice from here about being the leader, being firm and calm, she was good as gold and we spent a good half an hour grooming each other in the field after. She followed me around, didn't give me looks, so I think she can improve as well as improving myself, I think she knows I'm weak and tests me. Income is not a problem either, I don't care whether she's on loan or my own, she's an animal I care about, I would willingly spend money on an animal I didn't even know if it helped them.


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## ester (27 April 2017)

you see I would not let a horse as you describe get anywhere near to grooming me, it blurs the personal space issue. 

When the previous owner said of our mare 'has she washed your hair for you yet' that explained a lot!


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## Tiddlypom (27 April 2017)

Ellietotz said:



			we spent a good half an hour grooming each other in the field after.
		
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You did WHAT together :eek3: :eek3: ? You really don't get it, do you, OP.

I'm out.


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## ExmoorHunter (27 April 2017)

Tiddlypom said:



			You did WHAT together :eek3: :eek3: ? You really don't get it, do you, OP.

I'm out.
		
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THIS!!! I have followed this thread and, despite some VERY sensible advice, the OP is still no nearer to understanding or solving the problems.


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## ycbm (27 April 2017)

Tiddlypom said:



			You did WHAT together :eek3: :eek3: ? You really don't get it, do you, OP.

I'm out.
		
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This.

Sigh.


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## Queenbee (27 April 2017)

I just cracked my forehead open headbutting the desk - I give up. You are insane!


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## Queenbee (27 April 2017)

There is actually a very small part of me wondering if this is a prolonged troll attack


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## DabDab (27 April 2017)

Ellietotz said:



			I know she wouldn't have been something I'd have chosen but my original thread when she came into the picture explained how I don't have field rent or hay to pay no matter how much I insist so I took the opportunity. Seeing her progress is something I find extremely rewarding too and to be honest, tonight, I took the advice from here about being the leader, being firm and calm, she was good as gold and we spent a good half an hour grooming each other in the field after. She followed me around, didn't give me looks, so I think she can improve as well as improving myself, I think she knows I'm weak and tests me. Income is not a problem either, I don't care whether she's on loan or my own, she's an animal I care about, I would willingly spend money on an animal I didn't even know if it helped them.
		
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Wow....just wow....when people talk about babying and spoiling a horse, this is the sort of human-horse interaction they're on about....I do hope you realize that


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## ycbm (27 April 2017)

Queenbee said:



			There is actually a very small part of me wondering if this is a prolonged troll attack
		
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I'm so glad thou wrote that first!

I've been wondering pretty much ever since this poster joined the forum, but her posts have stayed just this side of credible.

To be honest, I now hope it's trolling, otherwise, it's sheer stupidity


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## Orangehorse (27 April 2017)

cundlegreen said:



			Trust me, if you HAD been bitten properly, you'd know all about it, and it sounds like it's only a matter of time. I took on a very troubled hackney gelding several years ago. Badly brought up, never socialised with any horse except his dam, kept as a stallion until 4, and locked away in box for most of the day. He had extreme "fight" rather than flight tendencies, and bit me twice, despite my best efforts. he was like a striking snake, and got appropriate extreme measures back. (the elbow is a good one!) He actually turned out a nice little horse, but I couldn't trust him for over a year. In the end, he respected me, and I rewarded him for that. He was however, very volatile, and had to be fed carefully. I sold him with full disclosure to an experienced hackney home, and they were very successful with him, until they decided to change his feed to something calmer. The result was that he savaged their old pony, and they were on the verge of putting him down. until they changed back the feed, and he reverted back to a managable horse.
		
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I heard of a stallion like that, it had been imported from the USA at a fancy price, but had a big biting problem.  It was going to be PTS but someone heard about it and took it on.  It would just try and grab people and really hurt them.  I think there was a bit of use of an electric fence system, but it was cured of the habit and turned out to be a very successful competition  horse and stallion. The thing was, it was never a person who punished it, it was done remotely.  No idea how it got into being such a problem, but luckily it found the right owner inthe end.


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## SEL (27 April 2017)

Ok. I've tried to give 2 constructive responses both based on the fact that I am currently managing a horse that bites and kicks. You quoted my posts, but I'm not sure you really read them . Mutual grooming is not asserting yourself and has the potential to get you hurt.

I wish you the best of luck.


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## Ellietotz (27 April 2017)

Wow... one minute I'm being told a few of you had an aggressive horse worse than this that you stuck with for years but I should walk away, then I'm told to scratch her, keep her in her happy place so I'm not always associated with things she doesn't like and then I'm told I shouldn't do that! What is it? Do I not scratch her or get along with her at all? Do I tell her off for wanting to nuzzle me back? Shall I just treat her like an object, bring in, feed, put back with no personality at all and no interaction? It's all very contradicting and confusing.


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## Queenbee (27 April 2017)

Ellietotz said:



			Wow... one minute I'm being told a few of you had an aggressive horse worse than this that you stuck with for years but I should walk away, then I'm told to scratch her, keep her in her happy place so I'm not always associated with things she doesn't like and then I'm told I shouldn't do that! What is it? Do I not scratch her or get along with her at all? Do I tell her off for wanting to nuzzle me back? Shall I just treat her like an object, bring in, feed, put back with no personality at all and no interaction? It's all very contradicting and confusing.
		
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Listen young lady - you are being willfully ignorant and selective in your reading and interpretation.

I said, you do not have the skills, experience or even gut instinct for a horse like this.  You have had it for 6 months and still have not had the vet out - if you really care about this horse -shame on you for that.

I also said, If it were mine and I chose to keep on with it - WHICH I SPECIFICALLY SAID YOU SHOULD NOT DO - then before anything else - I would have the vet out and all manner of tests and checks run.  

ONLY when it was cleared would I - someone who HAS worked with this kind of horse numerous times, start forging forward... NO GOD DAMNED way would I walk into a field and go all fuzzy wuzzy mutual groom with a dangerous horse.  

You are clearly off your rocker, do you scratch her? NO... Do you get along with her at all? NO!!  Do you tell her off for wanting to nuzzle you back? (IF you had any understanding at all you would know the answer to this - the horse is invading your space and clearly at the moment that should be a NO!!! - its not about no interaction, it is about the right interaction - something you are completely clueless about...

what should you do?  You have been told so many times, no god damned contradiction there - give her back to the owner and take your inexperienced behind away from the situation where you are out of harm and can't confuse this poor horse any further but you clearly need to go to spec savers as you seem to have missed that very clear message throughout this and all the other threads.  

Clearly you are a lost cause -


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## DabDab (27 April 2017)

Ellietotz said:



			Wow... one minute I'm being told a few of you had an aggressive horse worse than this that you stuck with for years but I should walk away, then I'm told to scratch her, keep her in her happy place so I'm not always associated with things she doesn't like and then I'm told I shouldn't do that! What is it? Do I not scratch her or get along with her at all? Do I tell her off for wanting to nuzzle me back? Shall I just treat her like an object, bring in, feed, put back with no personality at all and no interaction? It's all very contradicting and confusing.
		
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Yes, treat her like an object if that's how you see it....see to her daily needs, keep all interaction formal, then leave her alone.


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## Dave's Mam (27 April 2017)

Grooming each other?  So you let her get her teeth on you?  Bloody hell.


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## Dave's Mam (27 April 2017)

Queenbee said:



			Listen young lady - you are being willfully ignorant and selective in your reading and interpretation.

I said, you do not have the skills, experience or even gut instinct for a horse like this.  You have had it for 6 months and still have not had the vet out - if you really care about this horse -shame on you for that.

I also said, If it were mine and I chose to keep on with it - WHICH I SPECIFICALLY SAID YOU SHOULD NOT DO - then before anything else - I would have the vet out and all manner of tests and checks run.  

ONLY when it was cleared would I - someone who HAS worked with this kind of horse numerous times, start forging forward... NO GOD DAMNED way would I walk into a field and go all fuzzy wuzzy mutual groom with a dangerous horse.  

You are clearly off your rocker, do you scratch her? NO... Do you get along with her at all? NO!!  Do you tell her off for wanting to nuzzle you back? (IF you had any understanding at all you would know the answer to this - the horse is invading your space and clearly at the moment that should be a NO!!! - its not about no interaction, it is about the right interaction - something you are completely clueless about...

what should you do?  You have been told so many times, no god damned contradiction there - give her back to the owner and take your inexperienced behind away from the situation where you are out of harm and can't confuse this poor horse any further but you clearly need to go to spec savers as you seem to have missed that very clear message throughout this and all the other threads.  

Clearly you are a lost cause -
		
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You just said everything with bells on.


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## Beausmate (28 April 2017)

Ellietotz said:



			Wow... one minute I'm being told a few of you had an aggressive horse worse than this that you stuck with for years but I should walk away, then I'm told to scratch her, keep her in her happy place so I'm not always associated with things she doesn't like and then I'm told I shouldn't do that! What is it? Do I not scratch her or get along with her at all? Do I tell her off for wanting to nuzzle me back? Shall I just treat her like an object, bring in, feed, put back with no personality at all and no interaction? *It's all very contradicting and confusing*.
		
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And that's where experience comes in, which isn't something that happens overnight and is hard to gain when you have no confidence after being chewed on by half a ton of stroppy nag.

I didn't know quite how bad my horse was, as he had been living out unhandled for some time (should have smelt a rat, but you live and learn...) and seemed ok in the field.  I also had experience with 'difficult' horses, so once I found out just how bad he was, I knew I could probably deal with it.

I gave him a chance because he did something for me.

He will never be sold, loaned out or shared, as I don't want the risk of someone getting hurt and for the most part these days he is pretty chilled.  

Would I have taken him on if I had known how bad he was?  Absolutely not!  I used to cry myself to sleep some nights, he caused me huge amounts of stress and there were times in the early days when I just wanted him gone.

I like friendly horses, I'm not a pro, I do it for fun and hanging out with problems just isn't fun.  Git features isn't exactly friendly, but he tolerates me and we muddle along fine (like I said - consequences and consistency), but I never want to go through all that stress and pain again.  I have friendly horses now, including a big, silly mare, who comes up to me in the field for a fuss and never tries to bite or kick me. Ever. And it is brilliant!


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## Xtra (28 April 2017)

Have to agree with other posters.  I have 3 horses , all mares. One is very friendly and cuddly, one is slightly aloof and likes you near her but not touching her and the other is territorial of her space and handy with her teeth and hooves (she was a rescue).  I treat each one differently and just spend less time with the one who dislikes too much human interaction. She gets minimal grooming as she dislikes it (physical checks were done) and I don't fuss or cuddle her.  We have to respect them and have them respect us.


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## Amye (28 April 2017)

Oh Ellie, I really want to give you the benefit of the doubt but you're just not listening (/reading). 

The advice isnt all that contradicting... The people who have said they've had horses like yours and kept at them have all pointed out that they had previous experience with other problem horses, which gave them the experience to deal with a horse like yours. They are telling you to walk away because you are NOT experienced enough to know how to deal with this mares issues. They also OWNED the horse, so unless they wanted to attempt to sell a problem horse (not easy) they had to stick it out. You don't. This mare is on loan to you and you can turn around to the owner and say this is too much if you need to. 

A poster also advised they would try and keep the mare in her 'happy place' by hacking. This doesn't mean letting her mutual groom you. You said she was bad in the school, and on the ground. So you were advised to not try and solve all problems at once and work on your ground and just hack (the happy place = hacking while you work on ground work). Once she respects you on the ground, then tackle ridden problems. 

I'm sorry, lots of people have told you that this mare needs strict boundaries and firm handling.. This may seem impersonal to you, but as so many have pointed out, this isn't a horse to cuddle and fuss. Some you can have grooming sessions with like you want, some (like this mare who comes at you with her mouth open to bite) shouldn't be allowed to do that. 

I also think you're being a little confusing in your posts.... you say in your title that you're sick of being bitten and that she's very threatening on the ground (which is why people are concerned about you getting hurt!). Then you go on to say she's never actually bitten and it's not all the time.. Either you're downplaying it or made it seem more extreme in the first place??

I'm not having a go, just showing that some of your posts seem a little contradicting too. 

You've had lots of good advice here. Give up the horse being No.1. If you refuse to do this, get her checked by the vet. You said monies no object, and you care about her, so if you really want to continue working with her and the owner won't cough up... Get her checked over. And use a different vet to the one that tries to diagnose over the phone... THEN get a behaviourist who can actually see how extreme this mare is to tell you how to handle her and what you should and shouldn't be allowing her to do.


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## Nudibranch (28 April 2017)

I don't think this can be a genuine post. I hope it's not for the sake of the OP and the horse.


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## ycbm (28 April 2017)

Nudibranch said:



			I don't think this can be a genuine post. I hope it's not for the sake of the OP and the horse.
		
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I agree with you, but it's one of the good ones that has recorded a lot of very good advice for anyone else who finds themselves in the same situation, thankfully.


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## eatmyshorts (28 April 2017)

As previously advised, but in a nutshell ....

1) Thorough vet examination to rule out any possible pain causing aggressive behavior. If all ok ....
2) Seek Professional help re aggressive behavior. If not resolved/manageable/improving ...
3) Return to owner. 

It really is as simple as that. Do what's right for both you & the horse. Good luck.


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## Arzada (28 April 2017)

Is this the same mare which you posted about in March 2016 http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...-Possible-psychological-issues!-Advice-please ?


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## Amye (28 April 2017)

I don't normally do this but I had a look at some of your old posts. 

OP in 2014 you started this thread: http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?669478-Help!-My-pony-won-t-stand-still! 
I'm not sure if it's the same horse but it seems like you had very similar problems with this horse that you're having now... I'd advise that if you haven't learnt how to deal with these horses in 3 years then you need to look for easier to handle horses...


The first time you seem to ask about the horse you have now (if it's different to the above horse) is over a year ago... http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...-Possible-psychological-issues!-Advice-please
On that post you were advised that this may not be the horse for you, and to get a vet out to scope and do a proper work up (not just a once over). It seems that it's been a year and you or the owner still haven't done this. You're getting the same advice that you got a year ago and are still no further down the line with this horse (it seems). 

If this horse is real, please get a vet out or give her up and find yourself something more suitable...


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## Laika (28 April 2017)

Faracat said:



			I almost got the wet fish out again LOL! 

Click to expand...

You don't want the wet fish Pigeon - I made that error


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## Ellietotz (28 April 2017)

Amye said:



			I don't normally do this but I had a look at some of your old posts. 

OP in 2014 you started this thread: http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?669478-Help!-My-pony-won-t-stand-still! 
I'm not sure if it's the same horse but it seems like you had very similar problems with this horse that you're having now... I'd advise that if you haven't learnt how to deal with these horses in 3 years then you need to look for easier to handle horses...


The first time you seem to ask about the horse you have now (if it's different to the above horse) is over a year ago... http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...-Possible-psychological-issues!-Advice-please
On that post you were advised that this may not be the horse for you, and to get a vet out to scope and do a proper work up (not just a once over). It seems that it's been a year and you or the owner still haven't done this. You're getting the same advice that you got a year ago and are still no further down the line with this horse (it seems). 

If this horse is real, please get a vet out or give her up and find yourself something more suitable...
		
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Different horse in the first post, it was when I got back into riding after a few years away. Other posts where I have said 'i have this mare' etc is because if I said she wasn't mine, I wouldn't get proper advice most likely.


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## ExmoorHunter (28 April 2017)

Ellietotz said:



			Different horse in the first post, it was when I got back into riding after a few years away. Other posts where I have said 'i have this mare' etc is because if I said she wasn't mine, I wouldn't get proper advice most likely.
		
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You most certainly have had proper advice from experienced people on here but you are not taking any notice of it.


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## Velcrobum (28 April 2017)

Queenbee said:



			Listen young lady - you are being willfully ignorant and selective in your reading and interpretation.

I said, you do not have the skills, experience or even gut instinct for a horse like this.  You have had it for 6 months and still have not had the vet out - if you really care about this horse -shame on you for that.

I also said, If it were mine and I chose to keep on with it - WHICH I SPECIFICALLY SAID YOU SHOULD NOT DO - then before anything else - I would have the vet out and all manner of tests and checks run.  

ONLY when it was cleared would I - someone who HAS worked with this kind of horse numerous times, start forging forward... NO GOD DAMNED way would I walk into a field and go all fuzzy wuzzy mutual groom with a dangerous horse.  

You are clearly off your rocker, do you scratch her? NO... Do you get along with her at all? NO!!  Do you tell her off for wanting to nuzzle you back? (IF you had any understanding at all you would know the answer to this - the horse is invading your space and clearly at the moment that should be a NO!!! - its not about no interaction, it is about the right interaction - something you are completely clueless about...

what should you do?  You have been told so many times, no god damned contradiction there - give her back to the owner and take your inexperienced behind away from the situation where you are out of harm and can't confuse this poor horse any further but you clearly need to go to spec savers as you seem to have missed that very clear message throughout this and all the other threads.  

Clearly you are a lost cause -
		
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This

OP have you actually read any of the advise given by much more experienced people. 

I personally think you are a troll as there was a prolonged post about how your boyfriend was nasty to you and all you wanted was to be loved and you did not know what to do. This is a repeat thread using a horse as the topic.

Oh and I have read the whole thread and sadly you do contradict yourself.............


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## _GG_ (28 April 2017)

A little scenario for you...

Dog keeps walking face first into the glass patio door, trying to get to the garden.
Owner repeatedly takes the dog by the collar and walks it through the open patio one foot to the left. 
Dog continues to walk into closed door = the dog is dumb.
Owner continues to expect the dog to learn about the other, open door after repeated failed attempts to teach it = owner dumb.

A clever dog would quickly choose the open door.
A clever owner would quickly just open the door the dog keeps going to.
Neither should let the headbutting of the closed door carry on, but they do.

That's my take on this thread.
OP has proven she won't learn from the excellent advice given.
People keep trying.
Thread goes nowhere. 

Get off the train people, troll or not, this is just stupid. Why waste your time giving advice that you know will be ignored and why waste your time asking for advice you pay no attention to.

This has to be up there on the ridiculous threads list!


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## Equi (28 April 2017)

This popped up on Facebook and I thought it appropriate to share. 

Yet op let's her mare groom her then wonders why she gets bitten.....


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## Amye (28 April 2017)

_GG_ said:



			A little scenario for you...


Get off the train people, troll or not, this is just stupid. Why waste your time giving advice that you know will be ignored and why waste your time asking for advice you pay no attention to.

This has to be up there on the ridiculous threads list!
		
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I agree.... I firstly wanted to help and was worried about the OP. But after reading the most recent posts where they don't seem to be taking any notice of what anyone is saying and looking back at old posts they've had the same advice over and over again and not done any of it...

Troll or just ignoring advice as they're not hearing what they want to.

I'm done.


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## Leo Walker (28 April 2017)

OP isnt a troll.


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## _GG_ (28 April 2017)

Leo Walker said:



			OP isnt a troll.
		
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It's understandable why people may think that. It's irrelevant, but understandable.


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## DabDab (28 April 2017)

Leo Walker said:



			OP isnt a troll.
		
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No, just a little younger that the stated 20 years I think...


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## KittenInTheTree (28 April 2017)

_GG_ said:



			It's understandable why people may think that. It's irrelevant, but understandable.
		
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You don't actually get to have the final say over what's relevant and what isn't when it comes to the views and opinions of others. You may choose to endorse or dismiss them on a personal level, but that's the extent of your power. HTH.


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## _GG_ (28 April 2017)

KittenInTheTree said:



			You don't actually get to have the final say over what's relevant and what isn't when it comes to the views and opinions of others. You may choose to endorse or dismiss them on a personal level, but that's the extent of your power. HTH.
		
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It's not a dictatorship, nobody has the final say. HTH


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## Apercrumbie (28 April 2017)

I am the poster (and I believe I am the only one) who suggested the OP could scratch the horse in the post below. To be very clear, as this is a safety issue, I only advocated this when the horse is tied up short so the OP can still do some things that she deems to be "bonding". I suggested it because for a horse who doesn't seem to be enjoying many human interactions, she may enjoy a little scratch as a reward. I would NEVER suggest mutually grooming a horse like this loose in a field - asking for a disaster. And given how much of the good advice given by other posters has been taken, I would probably not give this advice again as the OP is clearly too inexperienced to differentiate. I wanted to highlight it again as I don't appreciate the OP cherry picking what I have said when I believe I made it very clear what I meant. I don't believe the advice to be confusing or conflicting.




apercrumbie said:



			Well for starters I would stop putting myself in situations where she is likely to bite. Stop messing around with her in the field, tie her up short when you bring her in and keep your face away from hers! For bonding, find her scratchy spot (when she is tied up short!) and scratch her there and talk to her lots. Otherwise, be clear and firm when handling. No messing around with your safety.
		
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## fburton (28 April 2017)

Apercrumbie, agreed.

Mutual grooming can be an ice-breaker and an effective way to convey to a horse your good intentions and non-threatening disposition. It's the only direct interaction that I can think of where you are actually emulating another horse to useful effect. However, not all horses appreciate this gesture or can be trusted to engage in this safely. The best / _only_ advice for someone who has problems controlling behaviour, particularly in the mouth department, is PLEASE DON'T DO IT!


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## cobgoblin (28 April 2017)

I'm confused....does this horse actually bite or not?....by which I mean, does the horse take a chunk out or leave teethmarks and bruising? Or are we talking about a teeth basher or an over enthusiastic groomer?


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## Ellietotz (28 April 2017)

It's amazing how many people are getting butthurt from this. Okay, I did something wrong. I have taken advice and I can't learn everything in a day! To be clear, yesterday went extremely well and ended very positively. At no point did she initiate or demand the scratch, I did, I went over to her and I scratched her. Then when I was done, I left and ignored her while she followed me until she knew I wasn't turning around so went to graze again. Whether you all agree with it or not, I was happy and wanted to write about it. Same as when I made this thread, I was annoyed and I wanted to post about it, that's what a forum is for. I appreciate all the advice but insults are quite unnessecary and uncalled for. If you all are so much older than I am, you should probably know the phrase 'if you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all.' Don't like the post? Don't comment. It's simple.


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## Goldenstar (28 April 2017)

_GG_ said:



			It's understandable why people may think that. It's irrelevant, but understandable.
		
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I am not sure you are in charge of what all of us think think is relevant .


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## _GG_ (28 April 2017)

Goldenstar said:



			I am not sure you are in charge of what all of us think think is relevant .
		
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I shared my thoughts, I don't mean to come across as in charge. I've hardly used  the forum lately. I think everyone can come across certain ways when they don't mean to.


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## Goldenstar (28 April 2017)

Ellietotz said:



			It's amazing how many people are getting butthurt from this. Okay, I did something wrong. I have taken advice and I can't learn everything in a day! To be clear, yesterday went extremely well and ended very positively. At no point did she initiate or demand the scratch, I did, I went over to her and I scratched her. Then when I was done, I left and ignored her while she followed me until she knew I wasn't turning around so went to graze again. Whether you all agree with it or not, I was happy and wanted to write about it. Same as when I made this thread, I was annoyed and I wanted to post about it, that's what a forum is for. I appreciate all the advice but insults are quite unnessecary and uncalled for. If you all are so much older than I am, you should probably know the phrase 'if you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all.' Don't like the post? Don't comment. It's simple.
		
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You cant be in charge of who comments and how it's not now it works on here .
We don't do 'only comment if you are going to tell me I am wonderful 'on here .


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## FestiveFuzz (28 April 2017)

I think this is a perfect example of the stages of competence. At the moment I would say the OP is showing unconscious incompetence. She doesn't seem to know or understand how to read the situation or behave around the horse and seems unaware of her lack of understanding and the dangers she's exposing herself to. I'm actually stunned the mare's owner hasn't stepped in to assist at this stage as it's worrying someone that doesn't know how to ask the horse to step out of her space and not squish her is in sole charge of this horse. 

In order for the OP to move through the stages to conscious competence I really do feel she needs external help to teach her how to read this horse and handle her competently. It's a shame she's being so selective in her reading of this thread as there's an awful lot of great advice here. Without help I genuinely think you'll end of screwing this horse up more as you're just too inexperienced I'm afraid.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (28 April 2017)

Ellietotz said:



			It's amazing how many people are getting butthurt from this. Okay, I did something wrong. I have taken advice and I can't learn everything in a day! To be clear, yesterday went extremely well and ended very positively. At no point did she initiate or demand the scratch, I did, I went over to her and I scratched her. Then when I was done, I left and ignored her while she followed me until she knew I wasn't turning around so went to graze again. Whether you all agree with it or not, I was happy and wanted to write about it. Same as when I made this thread, I was annoyed and I wanted to post about it, that's what a forum is for. I appreciate all the advice but insults are quite unnessecary and uncalled for. If you all are so much older than I am, you should probably know the phrase 'if you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all.' Don't like the post? Don't comment. It's simple.
		
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To add a riposte, if you don't want differing opinions of advice, then don't post


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## ester (28 April 2017)

apercrumbie said:



			I am the poster (and I believe I am the only one) who suggested the OP could scratch the horse in the post below. To be very clear, as this is a safety issue, I only advocated this when the horse is tied up short so the OP can still do some things that she deems to be "bonding". I suggested it because for a horse who doesn't seem to be enjoying many human interactions, she may enjoy a little scratch as a reward. I would NEVER suggest mutually grooming a horse like this loose in a field - asking for a disaster. And given how much of the good advice given by other posters has been taken, I would probably not give this advice again as the OP is clearly too inexperienced to differentiate. I wanted to highlight it again as I don't appreciate the OP cherry picking what I have said when I believe I made it very clear what I meant. I don't believe the advice to be confusing or conflicting.
		
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Quite you specifically said stop messing with her in the field! I do worry that the OP seems t be missing a dose of common/horse sense, doesn't seem to have anyone around her that does and cannot seem to grasp what I see as well written and well explained posts on here.

It's no good saying you have taken advice Ellie, you have actively ignored or contradicted it since you acquired the loan of this mare, against advice.


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## Ellietotz (28 April 2017)

Goldenstar said:



			You cant be in charge of who comments and how it's not now it works on here .
We don't do 'only comment if you are going to tell me I am wonderful 'on here .
		
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Clearly not what I said and missing the point but okay.


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## Ellietotz (28 April 2017)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			To add a riposte, if you don't want differing opinions of advice, then don't post 

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It's not the differing opinions I'm referring to, it's the unnessecary insults, they are not needed, is all I am saying. If it makes people so annoyed, no one is forcing them to reply. We all had to start somewhere.


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## Hallo2012 (28 April 2017)

Ellietotz said:



			It's amazing how many people are getting butthurt from this. Okay, I did something wrong. I have taken advice and I can't learn everything in a day! To be clear, yesterday went extremely well and ended very positively. At no point did she initiate or demand the scratch, I did, I went over to her and I scratched her. Then when I was done, I left and ignored her while she followed me until she knew I wasn't turning around so went to graze again. Whether you all agree with it or not, I was happy and wanted to write about it. Same as when I made this thread, I was annoyed and I wanted to post about it, that's what a forum is for. I appreciate all the advice but insults are quite unnessecary and uncalled for. If you all are so much older than I am, you should probably know the phrase 'if you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all.' Don't like the post? Don't comment. It's simple.
		
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glad that ended well.........................but it just as easily could not have.......................do you not see that you put yourself in a vulnerable position (approaching an aggressive horse in an open space and messing around with them loose then turned your back on her to walk away) despite many many more experienced people telling you not too? it ended well by sheer fluke and nothing more. It doesnt prove anything (except that you havent got a clue what you are doing!)


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## The Fuzzy Furry (28 April 2017)

Ellietotz said:



			It's not the differing opinions I'm referring to, it's the unnessecary insults, they are not needed, is all I am saying. If it makes people so annoyed, no one is forcing them to reply. We all had to start somewhere.
		
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I understand we all have to start somewhere. 

However, you chose to post about issues, asking for advice.
Posters then gave advice, just about all in the same vein, some giving examples. 
You then came back with another issue, quite clearly ignoring the initial advice.
More advice given by experienced persons.
You then decry this and get a tad snotty with other posters, also putting yourself in an unsafe position with a large animal.

To be honest, this is one of only a couple of threads this year where the OP has asked for advice, then completely ignored it and STILL come back to ask again.  What were you expecting?
This isn't Facebook where you can delete non agreeing posts or posters,  but as close as you'd get on a well run yard, having a number of experienced persons advice.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (28 April 2017)

I have met a mare who had ben raised by a stupid owner, I still have the scars. It took a lot of time to bring her round, including belting her on the teeth with various bits of wood when she went for you. 
She was a lovely ride, and I hacked her miles and miles with no problem, she was a big mare, slow for a racehorse, and a bit quirky in the stable, but actually had just been spoiled, so every individual handler had to be challenged, eventually we had a great "relationship", and she would come to call if I asked, she was probably intelligent, and recognised me a year later.  I hope she got a good home. Maybe hunting. Bunty, a big mare.
There are some horses who need experienced handling. One cannot get practical experience on a forum.


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## fburton (28 April 2017)

I would love to see some video of the behaviours being described. I appreciate why that's probably not feasible, but it would be _so_ helpful in understanding what the problem actually is.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (28 April 2017)

fburton said:



			I would love to see some video of the behaviours being described. I appreciate why that's probably not feasible, but it would be _so_ helpful in understanding what the problem actually is.
		
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The problem is the owner.


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## fburton (28 April 2017)

Exploding Chestnuts said:



			The problem is the owner.
		
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Quite possibly, but it would be useful to see with my (our) own eyes. It would be easier to point out where the owner is going wrong, imo. It isn't going to happen though, is it? *shrug*


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## ExmoorHunter (28 April 2017)

I took on a mare last year which a friend had rescued a couple of years earlier from a horrible situation. My friend had got her right physically and had worked on some of her issues.

She gave her to me as I keep mares and she wanted her to do a proper job and have a good life.  However, when I moved her she trusted no-one, was extremely difficult to catch and was very fearful of anything and everything.  If you pushed her too much she would try to escape/fight her way out of it and was extremely dangerous to herself and anyone around.  She is a substantial cob and not something you would want to squash you!  I keep my horses at home so was often on my own and had to be very careful although I did get flattened a couple of times.

I am not a professional but have been around horses for many years and have worked with a lot of projects but this mare really tested me. I cried tears of frustration and there were a number of times that I could've pulled the trigger myself. I always believed that this mare was a lovely person who had been badly abused but had to draw on all my experience and knowledge and really think hard about how to approach each situation with her.  Understanding her body language and reacting to her in the best way in each situation was crucial.

I am pleased to say that, a year and a bit later, she is turning out to be what I believed she was and I am delighted. I think she may be a horse of a lifetime now. She trusts me, wants to be with me and please me which is making everything so much easier. I am still always aware of what my body language is saying to her though even just around the yard.

I would never never advise someone as inexperienced as the OP clearly is takes on a horse with such obvious issues and I feel very sorry for her mare.  The OP cannot understand what the horse is telling her and also does not listen to advice on here from very experienced people even after soliciting that advice.  The OP says she loves the horse but love is not enough. There is none so blind as those that cannot see (or listen in this case).


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## Ellietotz (28 April 2017)

fburton said:



			I would love to see some video of the behaviours being described. I appreciate why that's probably not feasible, but it would be _so_ helpful in understanding what the problem actually is.
		
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LadySam is currently helping me over message and I gave her a full example of what a normal day is which I could do here but who knows what the responses will be... I made her out to be much worse than she actually is and it escalated so quickly, she really isn't a horrible aggressive mare. When you see 'horse biting', the worst is often assumed. The owners foal is nippy too because of being fed treats constantly but this isn't a horribly aggressive dangerous horse. Although, it is actually getting extremely annoying, especially when you can't do anything in the field without him thinking you are made out of food and coming over to try and get a taste your arm or whatever. You can see where this upbringing came from huh? He is very spoilt and never gets told off. I'm the only one that tells him off for nipping me. They just think it's adorable. I also think he might have something wrong with him too, potentially ulcers but the owner doesn't believe in all of that, as I've said before. He windsucks, kicks his belly(rarely but does do it), saw him pawing the ground yesterday which could indicate stomach pain and he makes burping noises too, often grazes but spits it out sometimes and takes an extremely long time to eat. Mostly the windsucking though, he does that a lot. Could be teeth, throat, stomach, anything. But owner thinks it's because he is a baby... I'm not getting involved but it gives you a general idea of everything. 

But generally, my mare is just grouchy! She doesn't like loads of attention which is my fault, I know that now. She gives me warnings, different levels of them, lowest level would be just a look, medium level is snapping her head at me like she will bite but not actually opening her mouth and the highest level is actually opening her mouth and just hitting me with her teeth. As I have been explaining this to LadySam, I have realised that the only times she hit me with her teeth are when it's my fault, I've brushed a scab on her chest by accident or something or I've just not taken the cue to move away and been in her face too long (referring to the the over-the-fence scenario). I now have a plan and I know what I will do. I will do exactly what I did yesterday but only up to the point I turned her back out and left her to do my jobs. I shouldn't have gone back in and I did but I quite often spend a lot of time scratching her in the field, she only gives me a look and walks away when she's done but this doesn't happen often, I normally am the one to have to get away from her otherwise I'll be scratching her for hours, she rarely gets bored of it. I won't give her this option now as I won't be doing that in the field  until we have established boundaries and leadership. When and if I do scratch her when she isn't tied up, I will be walking away first. Other advice I took about keeping her happy is making sure I will only brush her where absolutely necessary, i.e. only saddle area and where she might actually be dirty. 
To be completely honest, no, I'm not going to take absolutely everyone's advice, I will take what is the most suitable for me and the horse. I know what will work best and I will put that into play. I think we can all establish I'm not going to be walking away. I do trust her and I do know her limits. This has been a learning curve for myself too to realise what I have been doing wrong too.


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## Ellietotz (28 April 2017)

ExmoorHunter said:



			I took on a mare last year which a friend had rescued a couple of years earlier from a horrible situation. My friend had got her right physically and had worked on some of her issues.

She gave her to me as I keep mares and she wanted her to do a proper job and have a good life.  However, when I moved her she trusted no-one, was extremely difficult to catch and was very fearful of anything and everything.  If you pushed her too much she would try to escape/fight her way out of it and was extremely dangerous to herself and anyone around.  She is a substantial cob and not something you would want to squash you!  I keep my horses at home so was often on my own and had to be very careful although I did get flattened a couple of times.

I am not a professional but have been around horses for many years and have worked with a lot of projects but this mare really tested me. I cried tears of frustration and there were a number of times that I could've pulled the trigger myself. I always believed that this mare was a lovely person who had been badly abused but had to draw on all my experience and knowledge and really think hard about how to approach each situation with her.  Understanding her body language and reacting to her in the best way in each situation was crucial.

I am pleased to say that, a year and a bit later, she is turning out to be what I believed she was and I am delighted. I think she may be a horse of a lifetime now. She trusts me, wants to be with me and please me which is making everything so much easier. I am still always aware of what my body language is saying to her though even just around the yard.

I would never never advise someone as inexperienced as the OP clearly is takes on a horse with such obvious issues and I feel very sorry for her mare.  The OP cannot understand what the horse is telling her and also does not listen to advice on here from very experienced people even after soliciting that advice.  The OP says she loves the horse but love is not enough. There is none so blind as those that cannot see (or listen in this case).
		
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I can assure you, my mare is absolutely nothing like that as I have just explained in latest comment. Also like I said, I've learned what I am doing wrong and how I have been ignoring her warnings that she doesn't like being brushed there or she just wants to be left alone etc. I have been listening to all the advice. I don't have to take it all but I am taking on most of it apart from walking away. No one gains experience by walking away from difficult situations. If she was as dangerous as some of the examples on here, I would no way take her on. They could keep it!


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## Arzada (28 April 2017)

Ellietotz said:



			It's not the differing opinions I'm referring to, it's the unnessecary insults, they are not needed, is all I am saying. If it makes people so annoyed, no one is forcing them to reply. We all had to start somewhere.
		
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Yes we all had to start somewhere but are you? You have previously stated that you have 19 years of riding experience and 10 years of ownership/loans/project experience. 

There is a level of frustration on this thread with your misinformation eg you stated in your OP and the thread title that you have been bitten. Umpteen posts later after posters have taken time to post kindly and share their views based on their extensive experience you said that she hit you with her teeth. 

In addition in post #148 you spent a good half an hour grooming each other in the field but in post #187 you simply went over scratched her and walked away when you were done. No mention of mutual grooming.

It is also frustrating that you seem not to take things on board. 

This thread viewed with your other threads suggests that you enjoy a drama or several dramas. You have been completely unfair to your mare by making her out to be way worse than she is. At the very least I hope you apologise to her next time you see her.


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## ycbm (28 April 2017)

If you all are so much older than I am, you should probably know the phrase 'if you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all.' Don't like the post? Don't comment. It's simple.
		
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I also know the phrase 'bad things happen when good people say nothing'.

This thread is full of good people trying to help you. But you seem unable to learn. Your last thread was locked at your own request after you started it with a title which could have been calculated to get you critical posts. Yet you seem to have done exactly the same again with this one.

You've now got considerable history of posting asking for advice and then either ignoring or rejecting the advice you are being given.

With comments like 'I know what will work best',   I've started wondering why you are asking for advice on the forum at all.


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## thegreenergrass (28 April 2017)

Arzada said:



			You have been completely unfair to your mare by making her out to be way worse than she is. At the very least I hope you apologise to her next time you see her.
		
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Shame on you Ellie. She's probably sat in her field crying because you made her out to be worse than she is on a horse and hound forum. My heart goes out to her. 

Lets just leave Ellie alone now shall we? She gets to decide what to do with the advice you give, if you're annoyed at wasting time giving her advice which she hasn't perceived correctly or listened to, then why waste more time and energy getting angry about it and posting more?


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## ycbm (28 April 2017)

thegreenergrass said:



			Lets just leave Ellie alone now shall we? She gets to decide what to do with the advice you give, if you're annoyed at wasting time giving her advice which she hasn't perceived correctly or listened to, then why waste more time and energy getting angry about it and posting more?
		
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You are very new to the forum to be telling other people when they can and can't post.


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## Ellietotz (28 April 2017)

ycbm said:



			You are very new to the forum to be telling other people when they can and can't post.
		
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Oh god, who cares!! It's like a bloody playground! TGG you can't play with the popular ones, you are not welcome. We shall go and start our own group until we earn the right to speak to the elders :lol: 
Absolutely pathetic. So if you are well known and have been on the forum as long as everyone else, you have different rights? LOL!


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## Ellietotz (28 April 2017)

thegreenergrass said:



			Shame on you Ellie. She's probably sat in her field crying because you made her out to be worse than she is on a horse and hound forum. My heart goes out to her. 

Lets just leave Ellie alone now shall we? She gets to decide what to do with the advice you give, if you're annoyed at wasting time giving her advice which she hasn't perceived correctly or listened to, then why waste more time and energy getting angry about it and posting more?
		
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:lol: She must be very heartbroken. I can't imagine what she thought when she logged into HHO and saw this. I feel terrible! :lol:


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## ycbm (28 April 2017)

Ellietotz said:



			Oh god, who cares!! It's like a bloody playground! TGG you can't play with the popular ones, you are not welcome. We shall go and start our own group until we earn the right to speak to the elders :lol: 
Absolutely pathetic. So if you are well known and have been on the forum as long as everyone else, you have different rights? LOL!
		
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Yup,  definite troll, now talking to herself with another logon, if I'm not mistaken


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## fburton (28 April 2017)

Ellietotz said:



			So if you are well known and have been on the forum as long as everyone else, you have different rights?
		
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That's news to me. :confused3:


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## Ellietotz (28 April 2017)

fburton said:



			That's news to me. :confused3:
		
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Ask YCBM, it seems to be the new thing.


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## Ellietotz (28 April 2017)

ycbm said:



			Yup,  definite troll, now talking to herself with another logon, if I'm not mistaken 

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Errr no! You are incorrect there. Unless I decided to talk to myself over private message too! Pretty sure you can only have one account with one email. I'm not sad enough like some to care so much that I would make another email to make a new logon.


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## HanniRT (28 April 2017)

Ellietotz said:



			Oh god, who cares!! It's like a bloody playground! TGG you can't play with the popular ones, you are not welcome. We shall go and start our own group until we earn the right to speak to the elders :lol: 
Absolutely pathetic. So if you are well known and have been on the forum as long as everyone else, you have different rights? LOL!
		
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Ellie you posted a question about what appears to be quite a dangerous horse. You have been offered excellent advice by some very experienced and knowledgeable people. You have then gone on to contradict yourself and ignore said advice. If you are not a troll you might want to consider this...the next time you ask a question on here then people are less likely to want to help.


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## thegreenergrass (28 April 2017)

ycbm said:



			You are very new to the forum to be telling other people when they can and can't post.
		
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I may be new but I'M MAKING AN ENTRANCE. LOOK AT THAT REPUTATION ITS SHINING GREEN IN ALL IT'S GLORY yaaaaaaaas who would have thought?? 

If you want to carry on that's totally fine but I'd ask yourself why you're so emotionally involved in a stranger's life who's posted on a ruddy online forum asking for advice. Taking this all way too seriously if you ask me! Give your advice and be done with it. If Ellie gets hurt then she gets hurt and it will literally affect your life in no way whatsoever.

Hahahahaha Ellie apparently we are the same person  Plot twist - we are Siamese twins


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## Beausmate (28 April 2017)

Must be holiday time...


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## southerncomfort (28 April 2017)

The worst thing about this thread is that next time someone posts with a similar issue they are unlikely to benefit from all the excellent advice OP has received.  Don't know about anyone else but I can't help thinking 'what's the point?'.

What a shame.


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## ester (28 April 2017)

Ellietotz said:



			Oh god, who cares!! It's like a bloody playground! TGG you can't play with the popular ones, you are not welcome. We shall go and start our own group until we earn the right to speak to the elders :lol: 
Absolutely pathetic. So if you are well known and have been on the forum as long as everyone else, you have different rights? LOL!
		
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Wow, you have been given so much help and advice over the last few months by people that have taken time out of their day to give that to you. 

Perhaps given this and your previous thread about not being able to pay for stuff but actually being able to pay for it, and now we have a biter that actually isn't a biter you should spend a couple of minutes thinking about your thread titles in future so 1) people don't get the wrong information to base said advice on, 2) you don't then get all defensive about it.


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## KittenInTheTree (28 April 2017)

southerncomfort said:



			The worst thing about this thread is that next time someone posts with a similar issue they are unlikely to benefit from all the excellent advice OP has received.  Don't know about anyone else but I can't help thinking 'what's the point?'.

What a shame.
		
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Someone could always point them to this thread, with the suggestion that they make use of all of the good advice that has been shared. It could also serve as a great example of how to totally estrange yourself from other posters. Assuming that the OP doesn't have this thread pulled, of course. She has form for that.


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## FestiveFuzz (28 April 2017)

southerncomfort said:



			The worst thing about this thread is that next time someone posts with a similar issue they are unlikely to benefit from all the excellent advice OP has received.  Don't know about anyone else but I can't help thinking 'what's the point?'.

What a shame.
		
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The OP's threads all seem to smack of the boy that cried wolf. It's such a shame as this forum has a wealth of extremely experienced folk willing to share their knowledge to help others and is an invaluable resource, even for those of us who've owned and ridden for decades. Time and time again I am awed by the kindness of the virtual strangers of HHO and I truly hope no one is put off from offering words of wisdom just because of the behaviour of a silly few.


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## ycbm (28 April 2017)

I'll carry on until people make it obvious there's no point, because like this thread there can be a mine of useful information for another reader even if this one's a troll. This thread is practically a textbook on how to manage a bitey, bargy horse


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## ester (28 April 2017)

yup and forum threads come up pretty high on a google search so sure it will be useful elsewhere.


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## Leo Walker (28 April 2017)

ycbm said:



			even if this one's a troll.
		
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As much as you would like her to be one, she isnt a troll.


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## ycbm (28 April 2017)

Leo Walker said:



			As much as you would like her to be one, she isnt a troll.
		
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No need for the sarcy remark LW, please put me back on UI if I annoy you that much.

Since you know her in real life, is she as bad at taking advice face to face?


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## Ellietotz (28 April 2017)

ycbm said:



			I'll carry on until people make it obvious there's no point, because like this thread there can be a mine of useful information for another reader even if this one's a troll. This thread is practically a textbook on how to manage a bitey, bargy horse 

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Do you actually know what a troll is?


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## Nudibranch (28 April 2017)

OP I have always stayed out of these kind of threads, especially when the mudslinging starts. But imo you are out of order now. I initially felt quite sorry for you. I really don't any more. But I guess that's probably the whole point, isn't it?


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## Ellietotz (28 April 2017)

Nudibranch said:



			OP I have always stayed out of these kind of threads, especially when the mudslinging starts. But imo you are out of order now. I initially felt quite sorry for you. I really don't any more. But I guess that's probably the whole point, isn't it?
		
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What have I said that is out of order?


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## Ellietotz (28 April 2017)

I honestly did want advice by the way... but I must admit, it got a little amusing towards the end because everyone was taking things so personally so I was only joking around. No harm done, let's all just move on and have some wine. Thanks for all the advice on a serious note though. Cheers!


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## ExmoorHunter (28 April 2017)

Ellietotz said:



			I honestly did want advice by the way... but I must admit, it got a little amusing towards the end because everyone was taking things so personally so I was only joking around. No harm done, let's all just move on and have some wine. Thanks for all the advice on a serious note though. Cheers! 

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You sound like a very silly little girl.


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## Ellietotz (28 April 2017)

ExmoorHunter said:



			You sound like a very silly little girl.
		
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Oh have a day off! No need to be so serious all the time.


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## ExmoorHunter (28 April 2017)

Ellietotz said:



			Oh have a day off! No need to be so serious all the time.
		
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Confirmed!!


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## Ellietotz (28 April 2017)

ExmoorHunter said:



			Confirmed!!
		
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Just trying to make light of the situation, Jesus. You must make yourself very stressed.


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## Landcruiser (29 April 2017)

OP, I haven't commented on this thread but I've read every post with interest because I was once involved with a hand reared horse that turned out a bit like your mare. I've watched you basically wind everyone up, all those people that have taken an interest and taken time to care enough to give their thoughts and advice. I think someone said drama queen? To be honest, I was weary of it quite early on, but now you are acting in an insufferable way. Yes, it's easy to mud sling on a forum, but you have lost all credibility with your trite retreat into "Trying to make light of the situation". Like most of the others I should think, I'm out.


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## poiuytrewq (29 April 2017)

Ellietotz said:



			Thank you. I agree.
		
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Totally agree with ladysam. 
Spoilt babies are a nightmare!


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