# Horses Grazing Near Airports



## DressageDiva1962 (21 May 2011)

Does anyone know of any horses grazing quite close to an airport and of any problems regarding potential hazards to planes caused by birds attracted to the droppings.

My friends have had their horses on airport land for the last 5 years and all of a sudden they receive a letter requesting that the horses be removed asap as the droppings (which they move regularly) and mown grass (ready to be baled)  is attracting birds !!! bear in mind the field is right next to a nature reserve.

I need to gather evidence to submit that this situation does not cause a hazard to planes landing, there is no record of a sparrow, blackbird or other common bird flying into a plane engine causing it to crash. 

Thank you.


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## criso (21 May 2011)

Don't  know what the yard is but as you land at Heathrow you go over several fields of horses very close to the runway, I was looking at them when I was coming back from Germany on Friday.  I'm sure someone on here will know which yards these are.


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## mymare (21 May 2011)

Mum and I kept our two at a yard right beside Jersey airport, never had any problems and have never heard anything about birds or their droppings.. :/  Gatwick Airport seems to have a lot of yards near it too.  It's the first time I've heard this.


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## mattilda (21 May 2011)

There are horses grazing very close to the runway at Manchester. I often watch them when waiting for flights and wonder at how unconcerned they are with all the planes coming and going. They have been there for as long as I can remember.


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## blakesmum (21 May 2011)

DressageDiva1962 said:



			there is no record of a sparrow, blackbird or other common bird flying into a plane engine causing it to crash. 

Thank you.
		
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Actually small birds pose just as much risk, especially those who fly in flocks, I'm sure I read somewhere when I was in the RAF that they account for around 40% of all birdstrike incidents.

I've had to clean up many a birdstrike and seen the damage even one small bird can do to the blades of an engine, the canopy of an aircraft etc, if the strike occurs on take off it means the aircraft will have to dump 1000's of tonnes of fuel (which is a big environmental hazard in itself), so I'm sure you can understand why the airport is concerned. Perhaps they have noted an increase in incidents and are looking into all possible causes.


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## scally (21 May 2011)

Bird strikes on planes have horrific consequences.  If you go to CAA Gatwick Branch and the Safety Promotion in the General Aviaiton Department (I worked for them) the data on bird strikes is recorded by them.

Birds do cause a huge problems to planes, whilst working at Gatwick a Thomson plane took off from Gatwick and hit a flock of planes causing the right engine to catch fire, the bang could be heard inside our building just off the permiter of the airport and we saw the engine on fire as the plane passed the building, luckily it came back in and landed safely, this has not always been the case.

Airports spend a lot of money clearing birds from runways and grass areas around the runway, so sorry birds are a hazard, and yes they have caused planes to crash and yes they are a huge danger to flight safety.


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## Rollin (21 May 2011)

Whippletree stud is almost at the end of Manchester Intl. runway.  My CB mare and stallion came from there and are as good as gold with aircraft including low flying helicopters.


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## StrawberryFish (21 May 2011)

Random info for you, here there is a sign that says
"releasing pigeons can be hazardous to aircraft"
which always makes me chuckle because I can't help thinking it's a tad hazardous for the pigeons too 

Didn't know about horse poo attracting birds, but yes all birds are a risk to a plane xx


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## Mike007 (21 May 2011)

The point is whether the use of the land alters the risk of birdstrike. If it means that antibirdstrike measures cant be used then it could be a problem. Also if it means that more birds are attracted in then again it could be a problem. I cant really see any good reason to believe either to be true. I would be inclined to contact the CAA and find someone who knows about this sort of thing and whether there are any guidelines and recommendations . It sounds like some jobsworth is stirring up trouble for the fun of it.


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## KarynK (21 May 2011)

Yes birds are a hazard to aircraft but I would be interested to see the evidence that enough are attracted to horse poo, especially in a heap to cause a problem particularly if there is a nature reserve close by???   I would say that no more birds are attracted to rotting manure than there are birds occurring naturally in an area, certainly far less than householders that feed birds in their gardens artificially increasing numbers of small birds.

Birds attracted to dung heaps tend to be the small hedge hopping insectivorous types like robins, wrens and blackbirds that do not flock and rarely leave the cover of the hedge gaining little height in the process. 

A huge number of runways across the country are boarded by horses grazing and one of my mares was born at the end of an RAF base, so I cannot see that this is a problem.

If it were me I would contact the RSPB or similar and see what they can do to help with the species in the fields to counteract what the airport are saying, not forgetting of course that they cut their own grass and probably have a lot more acreage down to grass than the horses have and this attracts the bigger flocking spiecies!!!!


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## scally (21 May 2011)

I think the problem occurs as Op says the land is owned by the airport, thereby the airport has a duty by law to keep the runway kept clear of birds, therefore if the horses being there are considered a risk due to birds being attracted to the dropping then they have every right to terminate the agreement.  Airport authorities have no juristiction over privately owned land hence why horses or any other animal can graze on it.   However land that is considered a hazard near airports can be compulsory purchased by an airport.  The Swan Sanctuary is just under the flight path at Heathrow, however it is not on BAA land, nor does it pose a threat to the take off or landing paths of aircraft, the airport have deemed this an unnecessary risk, they own the land they have asked for the hazard to be removed.

The GASIL (General Aviation Safety Information Leaflet) may be available on line, and used to give bird strike incidents in it each month, if not it is produced by the Safety Promotion Section and their phone number is in it so contact them for data.


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## Mike007 (21 May 2011)

Presumably an internal report must have been drawn up regarding this risk. Ask to see it and perhaps this will explain what the perceived problem is . Long grass is generaly considered a problem so if you have been taking hay crops ,this could be a factor. Its not making the hay but letting the grass grow long enough that attracts the birds. On many airfields ,silage or haylage cutting is done and is prefered because the grass growth is controlled.It may be ossible to come up with some satisfactory alternative management scheme.


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## scally (21 May 2011)

http://www.int-birdstrike.org/Amsterdam_Papers/IBSC25 WPA1.pdf

This may help Op.


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## Tnavas (22 May 2011)

MY riding school was a block away from the end of the Christchurch Airport and we certainly had no problems with birds being attracted by the horses. We never even got too many anyway.

Planes flew directly over the school - low enough you could see the rivets on some of them - taking off and landing, including the massive cargo planes that go down to the Antarctic and also Concorde the few times it came to NZ. 

Ponies didn't give a stuff aboout them except when Concorde came in - the only time I've ever seen them react to the planes.


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## 1stclassalan (22 May 2011)

blakesmum said:



			Actually small birds pose just as much risk, especially those who fly in flocks, I'm sure I read somewhere when I was in the RAF that they account for around 40% of all birdstrike incidents.

I've had to clean up many a birdstrike and seen the damage even one small bird can do to the blades of an engine, the canopy of an aircraft etc, if the strike occurs on take off it means the aircraft will have to dump 1000's of tonnes of fuel (which is a big environmental hazard in itself), so I'm sure you can understand why the airport is concerned. Perhaps they have noted an increase in incidents and are looking into all possible causes.
		
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1,000 of tonnes of fuel eh? The biggest aircraft in the sky doesn't weigh in at more then 500 tonnes all up. Knock a nought off and you'll be nearly there.

The only birds that would present a problem would be Starlings - they do flock and love horse poo but I've never heard of any other instances of preventative evictions - I think someone has an agenda.

Once upon a time - I thought of a business oppuntunity making grass pellet as animal food stuff and approached both the Civil Aircraft Authority and British Airports Authority with the suggestion that they might like their grass cut for free - bear in mind that it's cut anyway - had two lovely letters back thanking me for my interest but they felt my proposals would "interfer with their operations."

I took that to mean that someone was already on a nice little earner they didn't want to give up!


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## blakesmum (22 May 2011)

Sorry I wrote tonnes instead of pound, I do appologise for the error! It's still one hell of a lot of fuel to be dumped.

I still stand by the rest, oh and IME starlings seem to love freshly cut hay fields and have you seen how big the flocks of them can get? All birds are a flight hazzard even the little ones. 

Oh and when I ran a military yard near an RAF base in Scotland, we were going to have the grass cut and turned into haylage over a weekend when there were no flights ops. Someone warned me to get it tested, glad I did as there was large fuel contamination just from the normal discharges of the engine so be careful.


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## amage (22 May 2011)

But sure if the airport owns the land and wants the horses off for any reason your friend has no right to fight it really!


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## Weezy (22 May 2011)

We are right next to an RAF base - all of the fields around the runway are crops...these attract a lot more avian life than our horses do for sure.  We also have geese, swans and herrons that are on ponds less than 100 metres from the runway.  Oh, and pheasants are bred for shooting here too.  So, all in all, we have a LOT of avian life, but no comments from the base about it at all.


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## suzysparkle (22 May 2011)

DressageDiva1962 said:



			I need to gather evidence to submit that this situation does not cause a hazard to planes landing, there is no record of a sparrow, blackbird or other common bird flying into a plane engine causing it to crash. 
Thank you.
		
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The A320 that lost power in both engines and had to ditch in the Hudson shortly after take-off was caused by birdstrike. Admittedly, I seem to recall it was Geese (ie not a small bird) but shows that it can and does happen. There has been a few cases of one engine failing after hitting birds and the aircraft having to return to land. Here's a video of the one already mentioned, a B757 so hardly a small aircraft : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__BKaZJa-Wg. 

Birdstrikes rarely cause crashes, especially in large aircraft, but they are a massive hazard. They cost the aviation industry a fortune every year due to engine, airframe, windshield etc etc damage. 

However, I can't see how Horses and the resulting droppings would make a difference. The two bases up here are close to the coast so are plagued by seagulls!! RAF Lossie has a military saddle club on one side and a riding school on the other!! Sounds like rubbish to me. However, if they own the land there's not much you can do I wouldn't have thought??


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## amage (22 May 2011)

Actually just a thought but if you do intend to challenge then get the horses droppings analysed. If there is no undigested grains (which there shouldn't be anyway) then there is nothing to attract the birds!!


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## Dry Rot (22 May 2011)

I live next door to an RAF bombing range and about a mile up the road there is a very large loch. They did a count of the geese on the loch one winter and there were 35,000 of them!

I wish someone would tell the RAF that the geese are a hazard because the jets sure are a lot of noisey b****s!!!


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## 1stclassalan (23 May 2011)

suzysparkle said:



			The A320 that lost power in both engines and had to ditch in the Hudson shortly after take-off was caused by birdstrike. Admittedly, I seem to recall it was Geese (ie not a small bird) but shows that it can and does happen. There has been a few cases of one engine failing after hitting birds and the aircraft having to return to land. Here's a video of the one already mentioned, a B757 so hardly a small aircraft : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__BKaZJa-Wg. 

Birdstrikes rarely cause crashes, especially in large aircraft, but they are a massive hazard. They cost the aviation industry a fortune every year due to engine, airframe, windshield etc etc damage. 

However, I can't see how Horses and the resulting droppings would make a difference. The two bases up here are close to the coast so are plagued by seagulls!! RAF Lossie has a military saddle club on one side and a riding school on the other!! Sounds like rubbish to me. However, if they own the land there's not much you can do I wouldn't have thought??
		
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Quite agree with your opinion of Starlings - they may look small but came very close to bringing down a B.A. holiday jet a year back ( sorry no link ) it looked like it had been pelted with giant blackberries with rocks in - very serious damage to the nose area and leading edges. I'm equally sure that birdstrike has actually brought down aircraft but this is far outweighed by other problems - mainly human negligence!

There's a huge earner waiting out there for anyone who can think up a method of keeping birds and aircraft separate - so thinking caps on!


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## KarynK (23 May 2011)

Just had a little thought I would look at local planning applications for the land, I think that the airport might possibly have something planned for it that will bring in a tad more than grazing rent!!!  It stinks that there is a nature reserve close by yet they are picking on your friends.

So if I were your friends I would be getting some legal advice right now, they will then know how they stand with their legal rights as a tenants and also may be entitled to compensation for moving!


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## millimoo (23 May 2011)

Leeds Bradford Airport has a couple of livery yards all round it. Plus horses on Private Properties in between.
Theres a Yard on Scotland Lane, and one of their fields is literally at the end of the runway - if you google map the airport, just to the south east end of the runway you can see the yard (theres a sandy arena). However there is a property over the road that has landing marker poles that are in the horses paddock. 
There's also further yards, and loads of horses on Carlton Lane. It's a very horsey area. Again you can see a number of Manege's up and down the lane - which will have planning permission (i.e the airport haven't objected)
There used to be a paddock next to where the planes used to park up, but that was taken and they extended one of the carparks.
Having watched the runway extensions, and additional carparks being built over the years, they're probably trying to do something similar.
Apparently one of the farm owners has said over her dead body will she ever sell to them.


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## MiJodsR2BlinkinTite (23 May 2011)

My old boy used to be only five fields' distance away from a regional airport and we never had any problems, tho' it has to be said that the field where the horses were was well tucked away behind a roadbridge/wooded area so probably no-one knew horses were there anyway.

This is a new one to me; I live in the flight path of an airport - we get planes flying over regularly - and I reckon that within a two mile square area of here there must be well over 100 equines of various sorts, plus cows, llamas, chicken farm, plus gawd-knows-what else!!

We get crows, seagulls, pigeons, etc - all part of life in the countryside; although there is a new town (gawd help us) nearby in the planning - so I guess when the whole of the countryside is tarmaced and concreted over, with main roads, street lights and industrial units everywhere, then the birds will have to find somewhere else to go!! 

Tho' I do fully appreciate what another poster has said about bird strikes causing danger: I think our local airport here actually employs a bloke to go around and scare the birds away!!!


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## horsey_jo (23 May 2011)

My first horse was kept on an airfield  which was handy cos I worked in air traffic control there!

Birds + Aircraft = Dangerous & Expensive Mess.
I have seen a hole in a cockpit canopy from a small bird hitting the aircraft on climbing after taking off. The pilot safely made an emergency landing but he was lucky that the carcass had not hit his heltmet! An aircraft hitting a little blackbird is more like hitting a frozen turkey when flying at speed.
I also used to work in the distress and diversion cell that deals with all civilian and military flying emergencies and birdstrikes are ten a penny - I imagine because birds vastly outnumber aircraft and have no care for air traffic regulations and policy! 

All large airfields have professional bird scarers that monitor the locations of birds and shoo them off by various methods.

Suggestion that horse dung increases the bird poplution is highly unlikely! If the OP is serious in contesting this issue I suggest they contact Safeskys.
They are a reputable firm that provides bird control measures to RAF bases.
http://www.safeskys.co.uk/bird-control-training.htm

If this was true there is no way the RAF would allow us to keep our horses on the unit. Aircraft, and I suppose pilots, are far too valuable to risk. But strangley the RAF encourages us with saddle clubs and letting us use spare secure airfield land to keep our horses on. At RAF Cranwell we practice polo on the flat ground on the airfield!

I think they are having the OP on and probably want to reclaim the land they are using.


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## Mike007 (23 May 2011)

horsey_jo said:



			Aircraft, and I suppose pilots, are far too valuable to risk. .
		
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Are you sure about the pilots? I think the OP needs to find out what is the percieved primary problem ,because I strongly suspect it is ,allowing the grass to grow long enough for haymaking. Long grass is well known as a bird strike problem. I suspect the horses and droppings is somthing thrown in for good measure. Find out what the main problem is and work out a way of addressing it,and hopefully the secondary problems will go away.


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## asommerville (25 May 2011)

well when we went to the Highland show the lorries were parked right next to the runway at the airport, as you can imagine there were a huge number of horses there and we were so close you could see the people looking out the window of the plane!


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