# lazy spooky horse , calmer ?



## angelish (16 January 2014)

hi 
iv'e never used a calmer before but am considering trying anything atm 

i have a 16"3 irish type gelding , he can be incredibly lazy but very sharp and spooky at the same time , he can spin/drop his shoulder and sod off bucking in the blink of an eye 

due to the weather/time of year etc this is getting worse and he very nearly had me this afternoon , i'm getting too old to bounce !
he's so bad at times i cannot even get him to walk in a straight line or use 50% of the arena as there are scary jumps stored along the side , iv'e tried hanging onto him and making him walk past (drops shoulder/spins quicker)
tried ignoring it/just going with him and he was better today but still not great 

but he is lazy , will a calmer make him lazier ?
has anyone got any recomendations for a good calmer for spooky behavior if there is such a thing 

he's not on any hard feed as such , he gets a handful of chaff with some pink powder and a little bit of oil 
he's ridden 6 times a week schooling/hacking/pole work 
iv'e increased his work to see if this makes a difference but it doesn't seem to have helped 

any ideas ?


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## Kikke (16 January 2014)

my welsh cob is simular especially very lazy in the school but will spook at any excuss, well she used to. 
she is on magic. Has changed her as she doesn't spook like an idiot anymore but has not changed in that she isn't any more lazy or shut off then before.
I must say she is still a coward and a spooky mare in general but have noticed that since I have started jumping her she is more happy to work in the school and braver which has also helped, but I would bot be without magic.


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## wench (16 January 2014)

How about equifeast cool calm and collected?


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## angelish (16 January 2014)

thanks 
thats sounds promising ill give it a try 
i can't get him near a pole on the floor without a hissy fit atm :/
sounds similar , mine isn't the boldest he's scared of his own shadow although he's not as bad in the summer , he's still spooky but doesn't spin and isn't as reactive as he is atm


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## angelish (16 January 2014)

wench said:



			How about equifeast cool calm and collected?
		
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thanks ive not tried anything yet so will keep that in mind too 
ill pop into our local shop tomorrow and see if they stock it


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## Cortez (16 January 2014)

TBH it sounds as if his problem is not nerves, but lack of attention - to you. If you are not engaging his brain then he will be free to indulge his imagination, resulting in imaginary boggles at whatever happens to be lying around. Spookiness is often not down to the horse, it's the rider who must keep the horse focussed on the job in hand.


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## angelish (16 January 2014)

Cortez said:



			TBH it sounds as if his problem is not nerves, but lack of attention - to you. If you are not engaging his brain then he will be free to indulge his imagination, resulting in imaginary boggles at whatever happens to be lying around. Spookiness is often not down to the horse, it's the rider who must keep the horse focussed on the job in hand.
		
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hi 
your right some of it is lack of attention but i do feel most of it is nerves , he's looking and feeling very well atm so the spooking and nervousness is getting worse , he's not like this in the summer 
he gets very tense , like a block of wood ,snorts and bounces about 
he even splats about walking back and forward to his stable 

i must admit he is starting to worry me, so i am getting tense now which is making it worse 
i did lots of lateral work in walk today , bending and stretching trying to get him to relax and that seemed to work
we just seemed to have got into a vicious circle were he is tense and i'm now getting tense and i thought a calmer might be worth a try


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## Cortez (16 January 2014)

OK, here's what is wrong with the majority of horses which are fed calmers: LACK OF EXERCISE + TOO MUCH FOOD.


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## angelish (16 January 2014)

Cortez said:



			OK, here's what is wrong with the majority of horses which are fed calmers: LACK OF EXERCISE + TOO MUCH FOOD.
		
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he's ridden 6-7 days a week and has a handful of chaff with some pink powder in it , whos rattled your cage today


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## Cinder (16 January 2014)

Have you tried lunging/long lining him in all the 'spooky' areas first? Does he still behave the same?


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## Cortez (16 January 2014)

I don't have a cage, actually, but I do deal with an inordinate number of riders whose horses are pratting about because they are not getting enough exercise. Stuffing pastes and powders into spooky, wired horses is not the answer to a simple equation: energy in = energy out. Some horses are getting too much energy even from just hay (which is exceptionally good this year after a fine summer and high sugars). Don't ask for help if you are not interested in the answers. Rude.


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## oldie48 (16 January 2014)

I think spooking when schooling is out of the same bag as laziness, they are both an evasion and I don't think a calmer will help but keeping the horse on the aids and listening will (or at least it helps with my horse). It may help with yours.


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## angelish (16 January 2014)

hi cinder 
yes he's the same on the long lines and the lunge , he will spook and spin on the lunge too 
he's just as high as a kite atm i think its the time of year with him , he also does it coming in from the field , he snorts and prances about/jogs 
he is a stressy horse he's always box walked too and that is also worse 

he is generally spooky and stressy atm not just when he is ridden


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## angelish (16 January 2014)

Cortez said:



			I don't have a cage, actually, but I do deal with an inordinate number of riders whose horses are pratting about because they are not getting enough exercise. Stuffing pastes and powders into spooky, wired horses is not the answer to a simple equation: energy in = energy out. Some horses are getting too much energy even from just hay (which is exceptionally good this year after a fine summer and high sugars). Don't ask for help if you are not interested in the answers. Rude.
		
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me rude ?
you assumed without reading my post that my horse is stuffed with food and not given enough exercise 
i am sorry if you didn't intend to come across as rude/blunt yourself but that is the way it looked in your post


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## Cinder (16 January 2014)

My friend had good success adding magnesium to their horses diet. The mare was quite stressy but not particularly spooky and she did appear to be more relaxed after being on magnesium. Does your horse settle eventually when being worked? Could it be worth working the horse until it's tired even if it's on the lunge and then getting on to ride? Could maybe try poles on the ground too to try and distract him from whatever is scary!


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## angelish (16 January 2014)

oldie48 said:



			I think spooking when schooling is out of the same bag as laziness, they are both an evasion and I don't think a calmer will help but keeping the horse on the aids and listening will (or at least it helps with my horse). It may help with yours.
		
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thank you 
i have my trainer coming tomorrow so will see if she can give us some extra exercises to do


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## angelish (16 January 2014)

Cinder said:



			My friend had good success adding magnesium to their horses diet. The mare was quite stressy but not particularly spooky and she did appear to be more relaxed after being on magnesium. Does your horse settle eventually when being worked? Could it be worth working the horse until it's tired even if it's on the lunge and then getting on to ride? Could maybe try poles on the ground too to try and distract him from whatever is scary!
		
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he does settle a little after about 20mins but is still spooky and won't go along one side of the arena (where the jumps are kept on other side of fence) 
i lunged him over some poles on tuesday and after about 5 mins spooking and spinning he did trot over them happily with much snorting 

that seems to have made him more spooky along the fence line as the jumps were then not there the next day 
i could do a lot more pole work though , i only get them out once a week


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## Cortez (16 January 2014)

angelish said:



			me rude ?
you assumed without reading my post that my horse is stuffed with food and not given enough exercise 
i am sorry if you didn't intend to come across as rude/blunt yourself but that is the way it looked in your post
		
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Yes, your description would indicate a horse which has too much energy (energy in does not equal energy out), which is happening a lot at the moment -  I see a lot of riders whose horses are becoming too much for them because they are not getting enough exercise. The solution to this is best achieved by increasing the exercise and/or cutting the feed. Feeding calmers, IME, does not work. I do not ever intend to be offensive; I do intend to offer practical advice.


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## angelish (16 January 2014)

Cortez said:



			Yes, your description would indicate a horse which has too much energy (energy in does not equal energy out), which is happening a lot at the moment -  I see a lot of riders whose horses are becoming too much for them because they are not getting enough exercise. The solution to this is best achieved by increasing the exercise and/or cutting the feed. Feeding calmers, IME, does not work. I do not ever intend to be offensive; I do intend to offer practical advice.
		
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thank you 
i apologies for taking your tx the wrong way maybe i am too sensitive 

this was my first thought (too much food etc) and so i took everything off him (apart from the chaff and vit sup)  and increased his exercise last week including taking him for a good hack/canter and adding more canter into his schooling 

he is turned out every day and i normally finish work around 2 so is ridden every day , our hay has been checked and has very little nutritional value but i will cut down his hay too 
i will get up early this week and lunge him in the morning before work and see if that makes any difference although i am a little concerned its just going to get him fitter


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## Cortez (16 January 2014)

angelish said:



			thank you 
i apologies for taking your tx the wrong way maybe i am too sensitive 

this was my first thought (too much food etc) and so i took everything off him (apart from the chaff and vit sup)  and increased his exercise last week including taking him for a good hack/canter and adding more canter into his schooling 

he is turned out every day and i normally finish work around 2 so is ridden every day , our hay has been checked and has very little nutritional value but i will cut down his hay too 
i will get up early this week and lunge him in the morning before work and see if that makes any difference although i am a little concerned its just going to get him fitter
		
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That is always the trade-off with increasing the work rate: fit horses, especially if of a Thoroughbred persuasion, tend to get even fitter and more reactive, which is why being able to free school or turn out is so useful. However, I also think that part of your particular problem is that he's simply ignoring you, so perhaps ask your instructor for some exercises that will engage his brain a bit more (for instance, shoulder-in past anything he thinks is particularly spooky). Lots of transitions are also good. What is NOT good is being too afraid to do more than walk (which a lot of people resort too); a good forward trot or canter will engage the horse a lot more and give him less time to invent things to spook at. Good luck; we're all in the same boat at the moment!


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## maccachic (16 January 2014)

If it hasn't already been mentioned up salt start with 10g per 100kg and see if it makes a difference.


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## angelish (16 January 2014)

Cortez said:



			That is always the trade-off with increasing the work rate: fit horses, especially if of a Thoroughbred persuasion, tend to get even fitter and more reactive, which is why being able to free school or turn out is so useful. However, I also think that part of your particular problem is that he's simply ignoring you, so perhaps ask your instructor for some exercises that will engage his brain a bit more (for instance, shoulder-in past anything he thinks is particularly spooky). Lots of transitions are also good. What is NOT good is being too afraid to do more than walk (which a lot of people resort too); a good forward trot or canter will engage the horse a lot more and give him less time to invent things to spook at. Good luck; we're all in the same boat at the moment!
		
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thank you 
he is an irish draft type with maybe a touch of warmblood , he was a rescue horse so have no idea re his breeding is just a guess really but he is def not of TB type so hopefully the extra work won't fitten him too much 

yes i was guilty of staying in walk for quite a while today but did move onto trot and canter eventually , he was better today so i'm not sure if the walking relaxed us both a bit before moving on
i will also try schooling him in the field this week if its dry enough as there is nothing there to make an issue out of 
he is very guilty of ignoring me at times so i will try not to be as boring this week  thanks for your suggestions


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## angelish (16 January 2014)

maccachic said:



			If it hasn't already been mentioned up salt start with 10g per 100kg and see if it makes a difference.
		
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hi thanks for your input  
i forgot to mention he already has a pinch of salt in his feed ,he can sometimes get filled legs and the salt seems to help with that


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## AdorableAlice (16 January 2014)

maccachic said:



			If it hasn't already been mentioned up salt start with 10g per 100kg and see if it makes a difference.
		
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Can you expand on the use of salt with spooky types please.


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## maccachic (16 January 2014)

Horses have a requirement for salt to keep them in balance, this is the main requirement electrolyte wise.

Salt also helps balance high potassium which comes from mainly stressed grass, high potassium affects magnesium absorption. It also help encourage the drink and flush their systems.


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## maccachic (16 January 2014)

http://www.calmhealthyhorses.com/solution/salt.html

this explains it well


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## AdorableAlice (17 January 2014)

maccachic said:



http://www.calmhealthyhorses.com/solution/salt.html

this explains it well
		
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Thank you.  My lot go through pink Himalayan blocks and my vet has told me to add salt to the cushings horse.


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## oldie48 (17 January 2014)

He does sound a bit like my chap! I now find with my horse that he uses spooking much less than he did because he knows it doesn't faze me at all. As he's a bit lazy, I get into canter as soon as I can to get him moving and thinking forward and if he spooks, he gets a bl....dy good kick or even a tap on his bum and I let him go forward. He's always at his silliest at home despite it being familiar territory but I use the energy i t creates to my advantage and over time he's become more in front of the leg and consequently less able to mess about. Good luck, don't let it get the better of you.



angelish said:



			thank you 
he is an irish draft type with maybe a touch of warmblood , he was a rescue horse so have no idea re his breeding is just a guess really but he is def not of TB type so hopefully the extra work won't fitten him too much 

yes i was guilty of staying in walk for quite a while today but did move onto trot and canter eventually , he was better today so i'm not sure if the walking relaxed us both a bit before moving on
i will also try schooling him in the field this week if its dry enough as there is nothing there to make an issue out of 
he is very guilty of ignoring me at times so i will try not to be as boring this week  thanks for your suggestions
		
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## Festive_Felicitations (17 January 2014)

This depends entierly on how you think he will react but, my mum was riding a horse for a friend because he was behaving similarly (shying at invisible monsters, snoting at thin air etc) and the owner had lost confidence. 
After a couple of rides of trying to work him through it keep his attention etc she decided he was just taking the mickey and next time he went to do it, she didn't react particularly but did give him a loud, angry verbal bolloking  After that when ever he tried it on she just rode him forward and growled at him and you could see him start tense to spin she'd growl and he'd change his mind. Didn't stop it entierly but helped a lot.

However if your horse is a bit of a rescue case yelling at him may just scare him more... its another option :-/


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## Supanova (17 January 2014)

I am just going to share my experience with you, as it may or may not help.  My mare can be incredibly spooky and lazy and it has taken me a long time to fathom her out, but i now know she is highly susceptible to diet.  She actually has a condition called RER and i'm not saying your horse has this but because she has it, i am now religious about diet and monitor exactly what she has compared to her performance.  So, for example, prior to Christmas she was going really well, forward, not too spooky and willing to work.  All of a sudden (well it seemed to me), she became very spooky and lazy.  It makes it almost impossible to ride her - people will say its training, but the level of the spooking and tension, makes it almost impossible to train them.  So i reviewed what had happened and there were only 2 things that had changed - firstly her hay and secondly i had added a handful of Alfa-A to her feed (speedibeet and supplements so very low in sugar).  My hay looked like it had no goodness in it but i sent it off for analysis and low and behold it came back as having high sugar content (i would never have been able to tell my looking at it!).  So i started soaking the hay and also removed the Alfa-A (some horses react badly to it).  Within a few days I have a foward, much less spooky horse back.  So i don't know for defniite if its the hay or the Alfa A but i guess what i'm saying is that in my experience, very minor things in the diet (sugar in hay or mineral balance) have a very big influence on some horses behaviour.


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## Doublethyme (17 January 2014)

Cortez said:



			That is always the trade-off with increasing the work rate: fit horses, especially if of a Thoroughbred persuasion, tend to get even fitter and more reactive, which is why being able to free school or turn out is so useful. However, I also think that part of your particular problem is that he's simply ignoring you, so perhaps ask your instructor for some exercises that will engage his brain a bit more (for instance, shoulder-in past anything he thinks is particularly spooky). Lots of transitions are also good. What is NOT good is being too afraid to do more than walk (which a lot of people resort too); a good forward trot or canter will engage the horse a lot more and give him less time to invent things to spook at. Good luck; we're all in the same boat at the moment!
		
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Excellent advice.    Having been in your shoes OP and still am at times with my young Hanoverian (hefty TB influence), I can really relate to your situation, with the horse gets tense spooky/rider tenses, downward spiral!!    I fell off my youngster in the summer through a sharp spook/spin and it hurt, so I naturally was more inclined to "eek" moments when back on board.      My instructor gave me the same advise as Cortez and it really works when you can let it.     

Best bit of advise my instructor gave me was not to confront the spooky areas at the beginning of a session, but to also not let my mare dictate where she went and where she spooked if possible, but to try to preempt the danger zones and make her part of my plan before she made me part of hers!!    Therefore initially I couldn't work at one end of the school, very spooky, close trees, ponies behind, sheep, birds, fox, cat, communication antennae thing that comes on randomly with buzzing.......horse was already scared of that end, I got scared too after she ditched me into the fence in the summer, so it was not a good combination.       

So I initially would go in and work in the areas we were both happy with, if I even felt a slightly hesitation from my mare, I would dictate a change of direction away from scary place, but at my lead and forwards.    Lots of basic baby lateral work, changes of direction etc etc, but all in our "comfort zone", then gradually inching our way up the school, but still not head on confronting the areas.     By doing this, we have both completely got over our phobias and my mare is much much much less spooky and concentrates on me mostly now.   We happily can go straight in most days and work the whole school with minimum spooking.    Even though it is now winter and worst time of year, we are both more confident and she is really working well most of the time in the "bad" areas even in extreme weather.

My initial reactions were to force the issue (hence my meeting with the fence....) or to avoid completely and sit like a tense rabbit in the headlights in walk - result a pretty hyper, scared, mega spooked horse.    I was also unwittingly letting her slide of my aids, ie whilst outwardly she didn't look too bad, she was constantly just slightly ahead or behind my aids and seat, so evading me even when behaving.     My instructor has worked on this with me and I am now much more aware of just checking she is with me instead of me constantly trying to stay "with" her instead.

I do have her on a calmer, BUT, I do believe that it worked on my issues more than hers and I didn't put her on it for the riding issues, but for calmness for winter stabling, as she had a few issues previous winter and had been out all summer 24/7.      I use Feedmark Steady Up and do think it helps with general relaxed mind, BUT only combined with me allowing her to relax and leading her rather than being a passenger.

Good luck, I do know how easily it is for them to erode your confidence, its taken me a good 6 months to really get back to where I wanted to be with my mare and I'm not one normally to get shaken - but I'm too old to get ditched on a spin nowadays and it hurt when I did!!


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## Billy the kid (17 January 2014)

Hi 'angelish'

My Gelding can be guilty of this too. Not to the same degree as your saying yours does, he wouldnt buck or take off, but he has a sharp spook in him, lucky for me i have long legs and normally can sit the spin and side-ways teleport! BUT again like you say he is normaly a lazy horse.

TBH at the minute i dont give him anything, he is young so i will just keep schooling away and try to teach him not to be spooky (which isnt easy) but when he is spooking at a silly jump or person or hat or what ever the chosen 'scary' thing is i try to keep him busy with transitions and lateral work to get his attention back on me and not on the 'scary' thing.

I feel your pain though, keep us posted on if you get any improvement.


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## TarrSteps (17 January 2014)

Doublethyme said:



			Excellent advice.    Having been in your shoes OP and still am at times with my young Hanoverian (hefty TB influence), I can really relate to your situation, with the horse gets tense spooky/rider tenses, downward spiral!!    I fell off my youngster in the summer through a sharp spook/spin and it hurt, so I naturally was more inclined to "eek" moments when back on board.      My instructor gave me the same advise as Cortez and it really works when you can let it.     

Best bit of advise my instructor gave me was not to confront the spooky areas at the beginning of a session, but to also not let my mare dictate where she went and where she spooked if possible, but to try to preempt the danger zones and make her part of my plan before she made me part of hers!!    Therefore initially I couldn't work at one end of the school, very spooky, close trees, ponies behind, sheep, birds, fox, cat, communication antennae thing that comes on randomly with buzzing.......horse was already scared of that end, I got scared too after she ditched me into the fence in the summer, so it was not a good combination.       

So I initially would go in and work in the areas we were both happy with, if I even felt a slightly hesitation from my mare, I would dictate a change of direction away from scary place, but at my lead and forwards.    Lots of basic baby lateral work, changes of direction etc etc, but all in our "comfort zone", then gradually inching our way up the school, but still not head on confronting the areas.     By doing this, we have both completely got over our phobias and my mare is much much much less spooky and concentrates on me mostly now.   We happily can go straight in most days and work the whole school with minimum spooking.    Even though it is now winter and worst time of year, we are both more confident and she is really working well most of the time in the "bad" areas even in extreme weather.

My initial reactions were to force the issue (hence my meeting with the fence....) or to avoid completely and sit like a tense rabbit in the headlights in walk - result a pretty hyper, scared, mega spooked horse.    I was also unwittingly letting her slide of my aids, ie whilst outwardly she didn't look too bad, she was constantly just slightly ahead or behind my aids and seat, so evading me even when behaving.     My instructor has worked on this with me and I am now much more aware of just checking she is with me instead of me constantly trying to stay "with" her instead.

I do have her on a calmer, BUT, I do believe that it worked on my issues more than hers and I didn't put her on it for the riding issues, but for calmness for winter stabling, as she had a few issues previous winter and had been out all summer 24/7.      I use Feedmark Steady Up and do think it helps with general relaxed mind, BUT only combined with me allowing her to relax and leading her rather than being a passenger.

Good luck, I do know how easily it is for them to erode your confidence, its taken me a good 6 months to really get back to where I wanted to be with my mare and I'm not one normally to get shaken - but I'm too old to get ditched on a spin nowadays and it hurt when I did!! 

Click to expand...


Excellent post. You have to take a multipronged approach to these things. Good support helps a lot, too.


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## siennamum (17 January 2014)

Doublethyme said:



			Excellent advice.    Having been in your shoes OP and still am at times with my young Hanoverian (hefty TB influence), I can really relate to your situation, with the horse gets tense spooky/rider tenses, downward spiral!!    I fell off my youngster in the summer through a sharp spook/spin and it hurt, so I naturally was more inclined to "eek" moments when back on board.      My instructor gave me the same advise as Cortez and it really works when you can let it.     

Best bit of advise my instructor gave me was not to confront the spooky areas at the beginning of a session, but to also not let my mare dictate where she went and where she spooked if possible, but to try to preempt the danger zones and make her part of my plan before she made me part of hers!!    Therefore initially I couldn't work at one end of the school, very spooky, close trees, ponies behind, sheep, birds, fox, cat, communication antennae thing that comes on randomly with buzzing.......horse was already scared of that end, I got scared too after she ditched me into the fence in the summer, so it was not a good combination.       

So I initially would go in and work in the areas we were both happy with, if I even felt a slightly hesitation from my mare, I would dictate a change of direction away from scary place, but at my lead and forwards.    Lots of basic baby lateral work, changes of direction etc etc, but all in our "comfort zone", then gradually inching our way up the school, but still not head on confronting the areas.     By doing this, we have both completely got over our phobias and my mare is much much much less spooky and concentrates on me mostly now.   We happily can go straight in most days and work the whole school with minimum spooking.    Even though it is now winter and worst time of year, we are both more confident and she is really working well most of the time in the "bad" areas even in extreme weather.

My initial reactions were to force the issue (hence my meeting with the fence....) or to avoid completely and sit like a tense rabbit in the headlights in walk - result a pretty hyper, scared, mega spooked horse.    I was also unwittingly letting her slide of my aids, ie whilst outwardly she didn't look too bad, she was constantly just slightly ahead or behind my aids and seat, so evading me even when behaving.     My instructor has worked on this with me and I am now much more aware of just checking she is with me instead of me constantly trying to stay "with" her instead.

I do have her on a calmer, BUT, I do believe that it worked on my issues more than hers and I didn't put her on it for the riding issues, but for calmness for winter stabling, as she had a few issues previous winter and had been out all summer 24/7.      I use Feedmark Steady Up and do think it helps with general relaxed mind, BUT only combined with me allowing her to relax and leading her rather than being a passenger.

Good luck, I do know how easily it is for them to erode your confidence, its taken me a good 6 months to really get back to where I wanted to be with my mare and I'm not one normally to get shaken - but I'm too old to get ditched on a spin nowadays and it hurt when I did!! 

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I also agree with this. If you aren't going to conclusively win a fight avoid one, also you are just reinforcing the behaviour as often as not.
I also make the horse stand calmly near the scary object/corner, wait till the heart rate goes down and move on quietly. It's far more effective at getting them to accept the 'scary' corner than having a battle.


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## angelish (17 January 2014)

wow lots of replies  thank you all very much for taking the time to post ,ill try and answer everyone 

maccachic thank you for explaining that its very interesting , i didn't think salt would have made any difference 

oldie48 thank you , i have tried to give him a rattle when he does it, but it makes him more tense and spooky and if i insist and fight he will bury me and mean it  although he's not actually managed to get rid of me yet (apart from a couple of times in a test when i haven't seen it coming ) it just doesn't work with him although on a not so bad day a little growl sometimes stops him before he starts but atm he's just getting out of hand 

Festive_Felicitations hi  same as above really a firm growl does work normally but any more than a growl just makes him worse 
i got him from a rescue center as a foal unhandled and although didn't have the best of starts (had strangles) he isn't nervous and wasn't badly treated so he doesn't have that excuse 

Supanova hi thank you 
that is interesting , our hay has been  analysis and is low in sugar etc but i will double check with our farmer that it is the same hay and he hasn't changed anything 
he comes out in hives if i give him alfa a so he is just on a cheap chaff to put his vits in (pink powder) a pinch of salt and a tiny bit of veg oil , i have cut the oil out just in case it might be that 
i have even removed his likit  

Doublethyme thank you for taking the time to type that , its very helpful 
he doesn't normally bother me but i just hate the spinning  it is horrible isn't 
it has just started to bother me this week hence the post , i want to do something about it before it turns into a big problem 

Billy the kid hi 
thank you , i too have long legs that do very much help or i think he'd be out from under me 

TarrSteps thanks 

siennamum thank you , i do agree and arguing with him makes it worse after all he is a lot bigger than me !
thats how i got him past a killer bolder out on a hack the other day , he spooked , spun and naffed off bucking 
i spun him round when i eventually pulled him up and i just sat there facing the right direction and he eventually got bored and walked past on his own 



ill give a little more info as you have all been so kind to try and help me 
i will try and not make it too long to bore you all to death 

i bought him as a foal to make 15"2 ish as i'm only 5"6 and had only ridden ponies before him and he grew to nearly 17hh 
i managed to back him ok but he's a natural wimp/follower and was very nappy as a youngster (he's now 10) 
i nearly sold him as a 5yr old as he discovered how big he was and developed a rearing habit where he would (hacking alone) spook and turn round then when i picked up the reins to turn him back he'd rear , then when i dropped the contact as he was rearing he'd leap forward off his hind legs , then i would try to turn him and he'd repeat the above 

so he has never been the easiest of horses  
i went through the sell him / shoot him or get on with it and sort him out phase then thankfully i did sort the rearing out and he is now normally well behaved and good to ride even giving youngsters leads etc  
so when this started i obviously want to nip it in the bud before he starts to think that he can start the rearing carry on again 

ive only been able to afford to have a lesson every couple of months if that , so i don't have a lot of help although i am going to get more training instead of competing this year to try and improve our dressage so hopefully that will help 

i enjoyed my lesson today  
he was still spooky and naughty and spun at one point when someone walked past bringing a horse in (how dare they  ) 
but he got much better towards the end , she's given me loads of exercises to do to keep him mind on the job (if anyones interested i will give more details but don't want to bore you all) 
so he's going for a nice long hack in company tomorrow to give him a break from being in the school and i will lunge him on sunday instead of a day off (i work on sundays) then back in school on monday to see if we can cope on our own 
i may still try a calmer as i don't think it will do any harm but i am going to try and ride him through it this week with our new plan of action


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## Joandripple (17 January 2014)

Hi angelish, 

My German WB is very much like yours - a b****r in the school, although he is now a gentleman to hack out. He can get very stressy in the stable and will box walk!  My trainer always tells me to ride him forward (which I do with the help of a balance strap) and this has helped immensely. But I would also point out that ulcers many be some of the cause for your horses behaviour too. I know that "ulcers" seem to be the cause of many problems in behaviours in the horse world at present, but it may be worth checking his diet again. Does your boy get any type of cereals in his diet.  Does he show signs of tummy upsets, runny poohs, girthy etc.. I am not trying to preach but it may be something to look into.  
My boy, although I have never had him scoped, I suspect had ulcers, but over the last year has changed immensely because I changed his diet and he now has a bespoke suppliment which is great.  
Hope it all works out for u and keeps us all updated.


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## TarrSteps (17 January 2014)

I'd be curious to know the exercises, if you don't mind. If that sort of thing bored us we wouldn't be here!


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## oldie48 (18 January 2014)

Hi having read your last lengthy post I realise mine is nothing like yours, i wouldn't cope at all with your horse's behaviour and yes, I'd be trying a calmer as well!! good luck I hope you find something that settles him.


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## GeorgeyGal (18 January 2014)

Dodson and horrel do a forage analysis,  you could test for magnesium deficiency,  which I believe is v common in the UK.


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## angelish (18 January 2014)

TarrSteps said:



			I'd be curious to know the exercises, if you don't mind. If that sort of thing bored us we wouldn't be here! 

Click to expand...

 ill post the exercises below 



oldie48 said:



			Hi having read your last lengthy post I realise mine is nothing like yours, i wouldn't cope at all with your horse's behaviour and yes, I'd be trying a calmer as well!! good luck I hope you find something that settles him.
		
Click to expand...

he is lovely most of the time and non of it is nasty , he doesn't mean it really he is just a stress head sometimes and the combination of less time in the field/time of year etc is making his nerves (and mine) worse , he is lovely to ride and a really honest horse most of the time although always a bit "looky" alone , he doesn't normally spin etc 
i even trust him to ride him bareback at times but obviously not at the moment  



GeorgeyGal said:



			Dodson and horrel do a forage analysis,  you could test for magnesium deficiency,  which I believe is v common in the UK.
		
Click to expand...

thanks , its funny you should say that my friend (same yard) has just started using magnesium and she thinks it is making a difference to her horse so it is something i will maybe try if more exercise doesn't make a difference 

Joandripple hi that is something that has crossed my mind but he isn't really girthy and isn't really getting any hard feed , this sort of behavior isn't really so unusual for him either , every now and then (mainly winter) if he's feeling fresh this is what he throws at me 



He's been lovely today out hacking in company(he's always good in co ), we were out about two hours including some lovely big hills so that might have taken the edge of his energy 
ill either lunge him tomorrow or hack again taking advantage of having company and then take him back in the school on monday to see if he's any better then 


Lesson/exercises
before i started i removed the flash from his bridle as he sometimes starts an argument with the flash noseband before he even gets out the stable , i am going to be openly honest here so please don't all jump on me at once  
i have tried tightening the nose band this week wrongly thinking i would have more control , i also tried schooling him in his pelham (i use it for xc fast hacks etc ) 
but have come to think that the spooking etc is due to tension and doing that ^ has made him more tense and the problem worse , iv'e admitted to that so any less experienced readers can learn from my mistakes hopefully 

we started off walking a square with a turn about the forhand on every corner , we did this away from the spooky side so as not to cause an argument straight away , then moved up to trotting a "square" circle and half halting, pushing his quarters over on every corner 

this really helped get him stepping under and softer in my hand as he was being a bit rude in the contact without the flash 

then still in trot we did some outside flexion as i tend to loose his outside shoulder on the left rein , so outside flexion and just let worked on straightening him up a little , without the flash he was really running through the shoulder but this ^ did help 

(he hadn't spooked at all by this point) 

this ones a little difficult to explain so bare with me 
on a 20 m circle we took outside flexion , leg yeild into the circle then did a 10m half circle out towards the fence , sometimes with a canter transition into/towards the fence 
he was really lifting into canter and felt fab 
we then changed the rein in trot and he nearly had me because someone walked past with a horse he dropped the contact and spun round but didn't buck or go very far so although he was quick it was a slight improvement 

after a little rest we then did some shoulder in along the long side , practised getting the right angle by doing a 10 m circle then shoulder in out of the circle 
then started doing some medium trot steps out of the shoulder in at E so shoulder in along the long side, get to E/B and push for medium on a half circle to B/E 
got two or 3 really good steps  

then after another rest worked on the canter transition's on a circle , spiral in then leg yeild out and canter 
then some canter - halt - canter transitions to finish as iv'e been working on square halts so like to get a nice halt then jump off/feed him sweets  

so got lots to keep us busy ! 
after all the faffing about on his part all week i wasn't looking forward to my lesson as i thought he'd just mess about and waste my hard earned cash but i had a brilliant lesson  
its so annoying because he felt brilliant , he actually goes better when he is a little full of himself but the spooking is horrid 

i can't wait to take him in the school on monday to see if i can cope without someone there shouting at me and i have raided the piggy bank and booked another lesson for next week

thanks again for all your input , not being able to afford many lessons i really do appreciate all your suggestions


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## Luci07 (18 January 2014)

Mine is the same. Almost worst because he is actually a really kind horse but he WILL find ways to amuse himself if I am not in top of him.

So when I warm up, he doesn't get to stroll around and stretch (my preferred way of warming up), he has to take the contact forward and is straight into simple loops, change of rein, translations till he is focused on me. Even poor lateral work while he is warming up help. 

So today, I got on him and we expected fireworks. This would have been fair as, thanks to this b**dy weather I have ridden him once since Sunday and not the 4 times he is used to. I worked him as described and he was really good. My concession is to take up the rein more when he is warmed up, and he does get short stretch breaks when I finish each section of work but 10/10 my little toad was lovely (not the yard favourite atm though as gets very naughty to turn out if not worked enough!)


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## angelish (18 January 2014)

this weather has a lot to answer for !
although it could be worse it could snow 

i'm working on a softly ,softly approach atm (still insisting he does as he's told) because i really do think its due to nerves/tension , if i can get him to relax he doesn't do it as much 
mine hasn't had a day off for about 10 days now  and he isn't getting one either or at least until his attitude improves


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## little_flea (18 January 2014)

I agree with Cortez and others - less feed, harder work. Horse needs to go back in his stable tired and happy and come out keen. It's not about how long you ride for, it's the quality of work. My sisters Medium level dressage horse has to work incredibly hard - if she doesn't, she finds ways of entertaining herself by bucking/spinning etc. My jumping mare (Foxhunter level) is also extremely lazy and spooky and I just have to ride her strong. Try to get it "nice" at home, but at shows you just have to ride as is required - and then go back home and put back in the flatwork/jump you lost at the show.


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## JenG88 (18 January 2014)

One of my boys is similar to yours, not nasty in any way but a but stressy and lacks confidence with anything knew. I use magic syringes when I'm going to be introducing anything drastically new just to take the edge off him to allow me to school him and get him used to things without him getting to the point of no return! I've found he concentrates really well with this and after a few times we don't need to use the magic anymore. I've found keeping his mind busy on different things helps. Also if he starts spooking I tend to stop, say no firmly back him up a few steps circle and carry on as I was. If I tried to force him past whatever he was spooking at he just panicked and turned into a jittering mess! Every horse is different it's just trial and error, hope you find what works for your boy!


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## trottingon (19 January 2014)

I think in a lot of ways you've answered your own question OP. I had a similar time with my boy, I had recently returned to riding and bought myself a horse after a looooong break (many years) who started off great but gradually became lazy yet sharp and spooky to the point where I almost sold him. 
I completely lost my confidence but what I noticed was that when I forced myself to ride him, if I fell off he would go much better afterwards. He's a very sensitive soul and the softie in me would think he was going better because he felt somehow bad or guilty he had thrown me but actually it was because I was getting back on with the attitude of being determined not to fall off again! 
I started using calmers to make him less spooky as we were going round in circles (not literally) it was catch-22 I knew I needed to ride him with more confidence but whilst he was being silly and scaring me every time my confidence was actually decreasing. 
It worked! As he was less spooky I got more confident and I now have no need to use calmers (I hope, never say never), so they really helped us and I would recommend others to use them to get out if a similar situation.
What I have realised is there are two "types" of calmers, magnesium based and herb based. Without having your feed and grazing analysed you won't know if your horse is deficient or low in magnesium, so if you try one type of calmer and it doesn't have any effect, try the other type. I found magnesium based calmers had no effect on my horse at all, but herbal based calmers did the trick.
Good luck!


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## angelish (19 January 2014)

thanks everyone 
he's been as good as gold the last few days but we have only hacked in company and he is almost always good in company , the odd time he isn't he just throws himself about a bit and that doesn't bother me at all 

it will be crunch time tomorrow to see if he is better behaved on his own schooling , i feel quietly confident with my exercises from my great lesson on friday and the fact he's been good all weekend , so fingers crossed he behaves and the extra exercise is starting to settle him down a bit


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