# Kissing spines ligament snip



## cptrayes (10 July 2013)

Has anyone had the newer, and apparently equally successful, ligament snip operation for kissing spines (as opposed to the DSP removal)??


If so, can you tell me what you paid, and if you were NW who did it, and how successful it was and how long before you rode again?

Thanks very much. All advice welcome, but to save you wasted effort he has already been treated for ulcers with a positive result and this is a separate problem confirmed by his immediate reaction to steroid injections into the non-existent DSP gaps


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## Leg_end (10 July 2013)

If you PM Charlie76 she had a horse done. It wasn't as successful as hoped but Im sure she'll fill you in.


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## cptrayes (10 July 2013)

I read Charlie's posts thanks    Her vet damaged a vertebrae during the op and admitted it.     Personally, from what I read, I'd be claiming off her vet, and I'll certainly not be using them to do my boy!

My research suggests that the op is at least as successful as DSP removal and the recovery a lot easier and a lot shorter. My vet has recommended it so I'd love to hear anyone else's experience of it, good or bad.


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## welsh_mare (10 July 2013)

My mare had the new op May 2012, if I remember rightly it was a 6 week rehab programme, before I got on her again, but she was turned out in a small paddock for the second half of rehab.

I still had the behavioural problems that I had previously, but we think that it was a learnt behaviour by the time of the op, we changed round the tack I ride her in and this helped with behaviour side, she's like another horse. In her ridden work she used to have a very short, choppy stride, but 4 weeks into rehab just watching her on the lunge and leading her to and from the sandschool you could see the difference in her stride she had lengthened so much, she also when I got on her you would feel her back was up, that's disappeared, and she is so much happier in her work now, so relaxed both to ride and handle from the ground, and she is no where near as moody as she used to be, you used to risk getting kicked when grooming, Now she pushes into you she enjoys it so much.

I've had some amazing hacks recently, started jumping in the sandschool and we are going x-country schooling soon 

Not sure if that makes sense (sorry, I tend to waffle!!), for us it was definately a very good decision to have the op, if there's any questions you have feel free to pm me


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## cptrayes (10 July 2013)

That's great thank you. In less than 24  hours I have seen a 6 inch increase in his walk overtrack and muscles moving where I've never seen them before. He was injected yesterday and I'm looking at the op as a permanent solution because his processes are so close we don't expect a couple of steroid jab sessions to solve the problem permanently.

He's also got very little bone damage as present and, I understand the quicker we operate the better the outcome is likely to be.


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## welsh_mare (10 July 2013)

Wow that's a great improvement in 24 hours  Tilly also had no bone damage but the processes were very close in 5 or 6 areas, looking at her x-rays 7 weeks post op were amazing, if you were to see them and didn't know her story you would never say she had KS!!.

Also the muscles that run either side of her spine, the left side was a lot larger than the right, yet when they scanned 7 weeks post op they were the same size, the muscle improvement down the right side was massive, the results for us were amazing, and the difference in her when I started riding her again was better than I could have ever hoped for, it was like riding a different horse.

I know no 2 cases are the same but as I said it was definately the best decision I made to have the op, I think our bill (including physio) was around £1400.

Good luck with whatever you decide, and if you do have the op, I hope it works as well for you as it has for us  

Please keep me updated, would love to know it all goes xxx


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## cptrayes (10 July 2013)

Will do. This is yesterday's xray if you want to see it.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-flWB802Vl...0/SPINE-Thoracic-09_07_2013-14_36_56-625.JPEG


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## Darkly_Dreaming_Dex (10 July 2013)

Harry was done in Jan at O Gormans in Newbury. 

History:He was broken in by me at 5yrs as he was too runty as a 4 yr old. Mum was a stocky black/white cob and dad was ISH (grandsire, Cruising). He has always been a very cheerful, good natured chap  not the sharpest tool in the box but very willing to give anything a try. He went through a period of tripping/pulling off shoes but changing to NB seemed to sort that out and he has always had a bit of a squeal and odd little buck going into canter but its funny rather than scarey. 

This was his first winter in full work and i wasnt happy he was 100% sound but he did have a splint that took months to harden so this got the blame. I had his leg scanned as a precaution- 100% clear. He also passed my vet's toughest flexion test with ease. In March 2012, a friend borrowed him and i watched her riding and thought "he really doesnt look right" we pulled him up, had a good look over him and found a VERY sore area right in the middle of where the saddle goes. Shoes off, 10 weeks in the field and vet was happy for him to come back into work. We decided to switch to the xw flat show saddle as the back pain could be saddle related and with his big shoulders, the jumping saddle could twist laterally.

 He came back to work and was working better than he had ever done in walk & trot so i progressed to canter- in a straight line- excellent but then he turned a tight corner and squeaked,ears flat back and a sharp buck. After a week i spoke to the vet and we decided that rather than spend weeks bringing him back slowly into work/having physio, we would xray first. 

He was very good about going into the stocks, having bolts duck taped to his back as markers and the xrays themselves h: 

Sadly the vet found one suspect area where the curser is:














Its not kissing spine but there is less space than its neighbours. The vet isnt terribly worried about it- he feels that it has contributed to a massive muscle spasm which makes him hollow under saddle and this cycle of discomfort needs breaking.He had steroid jabs and I spent 10 months on very careful rehab inc barefoot, physio etc but he didnt get any better once the jab wore off so he was referred to O Gormans and after a good look it was decided to have  4 done  the Op went well with no complications.

Here was my post with full details and pics:

http://www.stableads.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28993


He is getting stronger and feels sounder and sounder as his topline improves. He is cantering, jumping small jumps (upto 2') and hacking. The true test will be once the hunting season starts but at least he doesnt seem to be in pain anymore. Insurance paid but the op itself was around £1400.


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## rachelelizabeth (10 July 2013)

My little horse had his snip op yesterday . I'm keeping my fingers crossed and will update on his recovery


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## cptrayes (10 July 2013)

rachelelizabeth said:



			My little horse had his snip op yesterday . I'm keeping my fingers crossed and will update on his recovery
		
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Got my fingers crossed for you


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## cptrayes (10 July 2013)

Thanks DDD.  That's very useful. The last thing I want to do now is spend ages on other treatments. I'd rather just bite the bullet and have it done, since my xrays look a fair bit tighter than yours (though I can see the area of damage easily on yours)   I think my vet is supportive of acting quickly to prevent further damage, so success stories are really good to hear.


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## Darkly_Dreaming_Dex (10 July 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Thanks DDD.  That's very useful. The last thing I want to do now is spend ages on other treatments. I'd rather just bite the bullet and have it done, since my xrays look a fair bit tighter than yours (though I can see the area of damage easily on yours)   I think my vet is supportive of acting quickly to prevent further damage, so success stories are really good to hear.
		
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that was exactly my thought, i could spend £2k on further investigation or considerably less, and actually have a high chance of fixing the problem- it was a no brainer!


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## frostyfingers (12 July 2013)

I'm on week 3 post surgery (T14-L1), and horse seems to have come out of it very well, although I can't really tell how much improvement there is yet.  He's walking in hand x2 day for 10 minutes and we start lungeing next week with a check up in another 4 weeks before he can be ridden.  He certainly doesn't seem any the worse off so fingers crossed all will be well.  

My vet, who referred us to 3 Counties in Tewkesbury has had 2 successful outcomes in the last few months and was very keen.  Horse had already had steroid injections last September which had worked, but were beginning to wear off and the conventional surgery was not an option so I felt this was worth a go.


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## cptrayes (12 July 2013)

frostyfingers said:



			I'm on week 3 post surgery (T14-L1), and horse seems to have come out of it very well, although I can't really tell how much improvement there is yet.  He's walking in hand x2 day for 10 minutes and we start lungeing next week with a check up in another 4 weeks before he can be ridden.  He certainly doesn't seem any the worse off so fingers crossed all will be well.  

My vet, who referred us to 3 Counties in Tewkesbury has had 2 successful outcomes in the last few months and was very keen.  Horse had already had steroid injections last September which had worked, but were beginning to wear off and the conventional surgery was not an option so I felt this was worth a go.
		
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Thanks, it's good to know how common it is becoming and how well regarded it is by vets.

 The steroid injections have produced a miracle and I'm now keen to have the op done before the effect wears off, since its now clear that this poor sweet horse has been working with chronic back pain all his short ridden career so far.

He moved so well we never realised that his true action is nothing short of spectacular. I just wish he'd bucked me off earlier and I'd realised that we needed xrays.


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## scots (13 July 2013)

Mine had it at costs by Richard comer in nov 2012, and her back is good now. The re X-ray was good and shows good spaces between 9 vertebra one was still a bit close. (She had 10 impinging)
However she is now retired due to other issues and not being sound behind. 
She is now completely out of work and has gone downhill a little, as I think the work was keeping the muscle and keeping her going. 
I would do it again, and if she hadn't other problems it would have worked


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## Flibble (13 July 2013)

Try joining this Facebook Group horses with kissing spine.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/101279456709105/
My boy had slightly different op in October and most of our post op issues have been learned behaviour. Www.justmycharlie.blogspot.co.uk


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## FfionWinnie (13 July 2013)

Is this your thought to be cold backed youngster CP?  Sorry to hear about this I hope the op goes well.


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## cptrayes (13 July 2013)

Yes, my definite cold backed youngster 

I promised myself that the first time he bucked when he was well warm and I was sure it was his back not his stomach, that I would have him xrayed. He did it on Sunday, rang vet Monday, pictures then jabs on Tuesday.

The difference in him is unbelievable, so I am now committed to getting the op done before any pain comes back.

Believe it or not, I'm happy as Larry.  Sacroiliac or proximal suspensory problems would have been much worse.  And I had a horse who was a fabulous mover - the main reason why we never realised before how bad his problem was - and now he is completely spectacular.  His walk overtrack has increased by over six inches  

Trouble now is he was so free in his back this morning that he felt a tad explosive!


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## cptrayes (13 July 2013)

Flibble said:



			Try joining this Facebook Group horses with kissing spine.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/101279456709105/
My boy had slightly different op in October and most of our post op issues have been learned behaviour. Www.justmycharlie.blogspot.co.uk

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Thanks for this. I'll read your blog and I have joined the Facebook group.


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## FfionWinnie (13 July 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Yes, my definite cold backed youngster 

I promised myself that the first time he bucked when he was well warm and I was sure it was his back not his stomach, that I would have him xrayed. He did it on Sunday, rang vet Monday, pictures then jabs on Tuesday.

The difference in him is unbelievable, so I am now committed to getting the op done before any pain comes back.

Believe it or not, I'm happy as Larry.  Sacroiliac or proximal suspensory problems would have been much worse.  And I had a horse who was a fabulous mover - the main reason why we never realised before how bad his problem was - and now he is completely spectacular.  His walk overtrack has increased by over six inches  

Trouble now is he was so free in his back this morning that he felt a tad explosive!
		
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So is "cold backed" ever anything other than KS then?  Do you expect the cold back to go when the op is done/has it gone with the injections. Just interested. 

Hope you get the op soon then, how long will the rehab take, does it vary between horses?


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## Flibble (13 July 2013)

In my experience no two horses are the same. My lad had the op October 2012. Started riding January but have had to deal with the psychological issues he and I both had his pain memory and learned behaviour and my anxiety at the fact that a. all behaviour hadn't changed and b. is he alright and really fixed.
We could not get 50 yards from the stables without him panicking I could lead him down the track but if I rode he was hysterical so time patience and more patience and more time.


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## cptrayes (13 July 2013)

FfionWinnie said:



			So is "cold backed" ever anything other than KS then?  Do you expect the cold back to go when the op is done/has it gone with the injections. Just interested. 

Hope you get the op soon then, how long will the rehab take, does it vary between horses?
		
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I've had one cold backed horse that was kidney failure. I've seen similar behaviour from spavins and ulcers and heard similar with proximal suspensory desmitis. My  gut feeling is that many, maybe most, cold backed horses probably have kissing spines.

Rehab is 6 -8 weeks to being ridden.

Mine is clearly already pain free from how he is moving.  Today he hopped up and down when he moved off, but I think it was the expectation of pain, not the reality.  He's also had ulcers, which complicates life a bit, but his bucking from ulcers is when I touch his sides with my legs, whereas the back issue can be felt under my seat bones.

My vet checked about ulcers before taking the xrays, apparently the two conditions are frequently confused.

I am planning to time the op for when the two boys start staying in overnight, so there will be the least disruption to everyone's routine. The jabs will apparently last at least 6 to 8 weeks as a painkiller and if we can stretch the gaps meanwhile with long low work then it should last 6 - 9 months.

Like Ribble, fear is not only in the horse! I panicked at my boy's canter transitions this morning, they felt like the start of a rodeo, they were so expressive. If he wasn't basically a nice quiet fellow my tension would have created a disaster.


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## cptrayes (15 July 2013)

I have had a chat with the vet today and agreed a date for October before the jabs wear off and when he will be in overnight anyway. Surgeon will be Graham Monroe unless anyone tells me that it shouldn't be. Anyone interested in how this goes can follow it on my blog, address below.

I can't wait until we get back in front of the dressage judge who told me to hit him and the other who said 'he needs a man on him!'.  I wonder just how many good natured horses are working in pain?


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## Flibble (15 July 2013)

Cripes a bit of Deja Vue here


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## LucyPriory (15 July 2013)

cptrayes said:



			I wonder just how many good natured horses are working in pain?
		
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Judging by what I see on my daily travels -the answer is far too many - I could even argue a majority, but I've not taken a robust sample.


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## amandap (15 July 2013)

LucyPriory said:



			Judging by what I see on my daily travels -the answer is far too many - I could even argue a majority, but I've not taken a robust sample.
		
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Why aren't I surprised by this observation? 

Hope you're ok Lucy.

Good luck CPT.


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## BethH (16 July 2013)

Hi  Just to add that I followed advice of said knowledgeable friends when my little chap was a baby and they told me he was trying it on and to show him who was in charge ( I am a completely soft touch so to do this was a very big deal for me!) , he did the black horse impression on me, went over backwards I hit the deck.  Bless him, he almost did a somersault to try to avoid landing on me.  Have never taken advice again unless my gut tell me it is right.  He had KS, a conventional op 7yrs ago and we are both still alive and well to tell the tale.  I am so so glad we eventually found out what was wrong.  Yes we both had severe mental trauma to work through post op but he has turned into a wonderful nice all rounder who I was finally brave enough to jump 2ft 9 with a couple of weeks ago (jumping scares me!) and who is schooled and hacked 5days a week.  

The difference in his level of relaxation and the reduction in ridiculously spooky behaviour is amazing.  From the second I got back on him post op it was absolutely obvious that he was happy to be ridden, especially when bribled with polos, this is after behaviour so bad it was op or PTS as a danger.  

Foot balance in my horse has been absolutely key, he is incredibly sensitive to it being even a little out of kilter so is now 14 weeks barefoot and apart from a couple of weeks of soreness when the last trim was slightly overdone has been a marvel. 

Good luck CP, for all the help you have given us all on here, you deserve to get a good result for your horse so all crossed for you.


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## A Musing (17 July 2013)

Another useful KS thread!  Sorry to hear you're going through this CPT.  Interested to hear that you and vet are going ahead with surgery.  Mine's had steroids and vet is reluctant to do surgery as they seem to be working, and wants to see if the rehab is enough to sort the issue out.

TBH, it looks like steroids are generally a temp solution and many people seem to move to other treatments/surgery but ofc if I can avoid that I will so it's a waiting game.  I can see why you'd want a more permanent fix via the surgery route, and you can spend almost the same/more on other treatments and still end up with that.

Keep us updated though as would be good to hear how things go, am always on the look out for success stories with KS


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## cptrayes (17 July 2013)

Mine is also very spooky and I'm hoping this will help, because at the moment it's impossible to get any decent marks in dressage tests because of the way he spooks at some of the letters. Thanks for your story Beth


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## cptrayes (17 July 2013)

Musing, my vet is keen to do the op to prevent any further damage. They,are very, very close and she thinks that it will eventually cause damage to the main body of the vertebrae. She was really, really pleased when I elected for early surgery.

Horse is now scaring me to death, he has developed such a huge movement


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