# CDJ Eliminated??



## Sprat (20 August 2019)

I've just seen she has been eliminated. Rumours online say due to blood rule!


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## fetlock (20 August 2019)

"Blood was found on the left flank of the horse in the post-competition check..." says FEI


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## ester (20 August 2019)

yes I don't think it's a rumour it is blood.


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## Sprat (20 August 2019)

It looks like BD have issued an update now as well.


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## {97702} (20 August 2019)

Loving all the comments saying â€˜oh well it could happen to anyoneâ€™ - which absolutely it could, I totally appreciate that and do not feel she has done anything wrong in any way - itâ€™s just a tad ironic where social media would be down like a ton of bricks on other riders!


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## ihatework (20 August 2019)

Levrier said:



			Loving all the comments saying â€˜oh well it could happen to anyoneâ€™ - which absolutely it could, I totally appreciate that and do not feel she has done anything wrong in any way - itâ€™s just a tad ironic where social media would be down like a ton of bricks on other riders!
		
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Gutted for her but this is very much true. Rules is rules unfortunately. Just galling how they are applied in Dr/SJ/Ev but appear to be written in invisible ink for Endurance


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## {97702} (20 August 2019)

Yep! I could imagine the shrieks of cruelty if it were a less popular rider.... but CDJ has done absolutely the right thing IMO by reacting in the way she has 

It did make me smile when I saw Patrick Kittel commenting on her Instagram pic yesterday - I did wonder if someone was going to add â€˜and all done without rollkurâ€™ ðŸ™„


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## ester (20 August 2019)

I was waiting for someone to point out the difference in leg angles in the trot pic everyone was using to give her score, then this happened


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## The Trooper (20 August 2019)

I don't follow any form of equestrian sport but thought I would read the article and now would like to share my thoughts.

â€œElimination under this rule does not imply there was any intent to injure the horse, but the rules are in place to protect the welfare of all competing horses.â€

I like this rule. She's clearly devastated and going by her statement truly loves her horses. I am nonetheless glad there are rules in place to protect all horses at all levels (I assume it's all levels) from barbaric riding.


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## dogatemysalad (20 August 2019)

Respect her for her statement accepting the judgement. I feel that she'll look at how this happened and ensure that it never happens again. Once, is forgivable. Twice is unacceptable.


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## Mule (20 August 2019)

The Trooper said:



			I don't follow any form of equestrian sport but thought I would read the article and now would like to share my thoughts.

â€œElimination under this rule does not imply there was any intent to injure the horse, but the rules are in place to protect the welfare of all competing horses.â€

I like this rule. She's clearly devastated and going by her statement truly loves her horses. I am nonetheless glad there are rules in place to protect all horses at all levels (I assume it's all levels) from barbaric riding.
		
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I think she responded very well. I remember a few years ago when a show jumper was eliminated for the same reason he threw his toys out of the pram and it didn't come across well.


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## ElectricChampagne (20 August 2019)

I think her response is spot on, and she is to be commended and congratulated for her maturity and understanding of the issue, despite being devastated by the finding. 
She is a true sportswoman.

Just waiting for the death by social media to start now I suppose... But like already mentioned, if it was any other rider they'd have been hung drawn and quartered already.

Not that I feel they or she should be.


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## ester (20 August 2019)

mule said:



			I think she responded very well. I remember a few years ago when a show jumper was eliminated for the same reason he threw his toys out of the pram and it didn't come across well.
		
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Bertram Allen, I don't remember him coming across badly it was just the first time it had really happened in SJ especially after 'winning' a very big show. Riders are more aware now, hence the plethora of belly bands since at olympia!


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## milliepops (20 August 2019)

Levrier said:



			Loving all the comments saying â€˜oh well it could happen to anyoneâ€™ - which absolutely it could, I totally appreciate that and do not feel she has done anything wrong in any way - itâ€™s just a tad ironic where social media would be down like a ton of bricks on other riders!
		
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There was another horse eliminated under the blood rule for Luxembourg and comments were much the same on the posts I saw


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## {97702} (20 August 2019)

milliepops said:



			There was another horse eliminated under the blood rule for Luxembourg and comments were much the same on the posts I saw 

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Probably wasnâ€™t one of the other riders I was thinking of then....


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## Sprat (20 August 2019)

4 eliminated so far from the whole competition I believe, I think Luxembourg are completely out now


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## Fiona (20 August 2019)

ester said:



			Bertram Allen, I don't remember him coming across badly it was just the first time it had really happened in SJ especially after 'winning' a very big show. Riders are more aware now, hence the plethora of belly bands since at olympia!
		
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I didn't follow the SJ scene as much as I do now, but I didn't remember him having a strop about it either???

FIona


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## Wheels (20 August 2019)

I dont think bertram did have a strop but there were a lot of his supporters being quite vociferous on social media.

Same with scott brash when it happened to him and even the steward was named which was very out of order.


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## Sprat (20 August 2019)

Wheels said:



			I dont think bertram did have a strop but there were a lot of his supporters being quite vociferous on social media.

Same with scott brash when it happened to him and even the steward was named which was very out of order.
		
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Yes I remember the Scott Brash debacle getting quite nasty on social media


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## Elf On A Shelf (20 August 2019)

Was there not a dressage rider that threw a tantrum when her horse came in with blood in its mouth? Almost ran over the top of people trying to leave the check area?


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## Peter7917 (20 August 2019)

I do not follow horse sports particularly but it does surprise me that a horse would come away with blood on him? Is this as a result of spurs?


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## ycbm (20 August 2019)

Picture of what looks like several spur rakes immediately behind her heel in the second photo in  this  HHO news feed. Quite clear if you bigger it up.

https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/new...rdin-eliminated-european-championships-694352

She's reacted extremely professionally, all credit to her.


.


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## twiggy2 (20 August 2019)

I agree very professional response from both CJD and the owners of the horse.


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## Mule (20 August 2019)

ester said:



			Bertram Allen, I don't remember him coming across badly it was just the first time it had really happened in SJ especially after 'winning' a very big show. Riders are more aware now, hence the plethora of belly bands since at olympia!
		
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A handy invention


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## cobgoblin (20 August 2019)

Is there any need to have a spur that is capable of drawing blood? Surely this implies that there is some form of sharpness to the end of the spur.


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## ester (20 August 2019)

You can generate blood sufficient to mark a white glove with a totally blunt spur from friction rather than any sharpness, I've done it when mine was starting coat change, you can see it was a rub, I was wearing smooth round ball rotating spurs. And yes I still felt dreadful about it and was careful what I did with him during those times of year then. Him and one other were actually worse with no spurs as the less contact area the better.


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## ihatework (20 August 2019)

Iâ€™ve put holes in a horses sides from just the spur rests on my boots - wasnâ€™t even wearing spurs. Didnâ€™t feel too guilty about that one though given the bugger was doing itâ€™s best to bronc me off at the time ðŸ˜‰


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## ester (20 August 2019)

lol, the worst one (not ours but on loan) we had to always wear well polished boots for a while, tending to be a suede chaps sort of family.


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## tristar (20 August 2019)

i hate spurs and think they should be banned, in fact made illegal


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## milliepops (20 August 2019)

ihatework said:



			Iâ€™ve put holes in a horses sides from just the spur rests on my boots
		
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yep me too, I rode a very thin skinned TB for a while and anything other than smooth leather boots would rub a hole in her esp at this time of year or late winter when the coat was starting to change.  I also found that any spurs had to be meticulously cleaned on her because just the build up of grease would be enough to create friction against her coat - one reason why rowels can be a better option on a thin skinned horse i think... am thinking ahead having acquired another weedy coated TB!


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## cobgoblin (20 August 2019)

tristar said:



			i hate spurs and think they should be banned, in fact made illegal
		
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That would actually be quite interesting..... Let's see who can ride witnout them.


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## milliepops (20 August 2019)

I really don't understand what banning spurs would prove?
Banning the misuse of spurs (and other kit) is a good thing and covered by existing rules.
The blood rule is a good thing but a rider does not have to have misused their equipment to be caught by it.

Banning spurs would just reduce riders to dulled leg aids, rather than the ability to give a brief precise instruction.
If a horse was that sensitive skinned, or so dulled to the leg that light aids weren't effective, the potential is that either it would still be rubbed by the leg, or that the rider would be using more forceful leg aids to achieve the same thing.

can someone who would want to ban them explain exactly what it would do to improve horse welfare?
I would support a change of rules to stop them being mandatory at these levels but that's a different thing.


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## Elf On A Shelf (20 August 2019)

I suspect that the majority of these horses are freshly clipped too so wont have that few extra mm of hair that can make all the difference.


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## tristar (20 August 2019)

cobgoblin said:



			That would actually be quite interesting..... Let's see who can ride witnout them.
		
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yes that would be fun!


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## milliepops (20 August 2019)

it just smacks of superiority from this angle... what different outcome would you have predicted, say, from today's results?  

Do you think Isabel actually can't ride or Cosmo is a kickalong dobbin?


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## scats (20 August 2019)

A very professional statement from Charlotte.  She adores her horses and I imagine will be quite devastated about this.
Thin skinned and recently clipped horses can be extremely sensitive even to the leather of a riders boots.  I see a lot of showjumpers leave a hairy patch where the spur sits.


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## tristar (20 August 2019)

milliepops said:



			I really don't understand what banning spurs would prove?
Banning the misuse of spurs (and other kit) is a good thing and covered by existing rules.
The blood rule is a good thing but a rider does not have to have misused their equipment to be caught by it.

Banning spurs would just reduce riders to dulled leg aids, rather than the ability to give a brief precise instruction.
If a horse was that sensitive skinned, or so dulled to the leg that light aids weren't effective, the potential is that either it would still be rubbed by the leg, or that the rider would be using more forceful leg aids to achieve the same thing.

can someone who would want to ban them explain exactly what it would do to improve horse welfare?
I would support a change of rules to stop them being mandatory at these levels but that's a different thing.
		
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t

 i would genuinely like to see if it would improve riding ability from ground level and radically
 change teaching methods

not causing more forceful leg aids,  but creating horses more sensitive to leg aids

isobel werth is the last person i would wish to comment on! 

i must say i think the greatest gift a trainer can have is humility, there is no superiority in being in awe of horses.


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## milliepops (20 August 2019)

tristar said:



			t

i would genuinely like to see if it would improve riding ability from ground level and radically
change teaching methods

not causing more forceful leg aids,  but creating horses more sensitive to leg aids
		
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I'm literally a bit speechless at this part
Actually what part of Carl's training of Charlotte do you think has gone wrong?


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## Elf On A Shelf (20 August 2019)

I think the whole thing has been blown out if proportion. There wasn't blood pouring from the horse, there wasn't a gaping open wound, there was a rub, enough of one to be eliminated. 

As for the guy who was eliminated for the horse biting it's tongue - thats sheer bad luck. He knows when the horse did it - when it wad being a bit of a fud. 

I find the rules very strict but that's a good thing. If there is no real margin for error then people can't be felt hard done by.


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## {97702} (20 August 2019)

tristar said:



			i must say i think the greatest gift a trainer can have is humility, there is no superiority in being in awe of horses.
		
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Do you genuinely believe that Carl Hester doesnâ€™t have humility?


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## tristar (20 August 2019)

milliepops said:



			I'm literally a bit speechless at this part
Actually what part of Carl's training of Charlotte do you think has gone wrong?
		
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well just have a cup of tea and sit down.


i just do not like spurs

i have not commented on carl or charlotte only spurs in general


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## milliepops (20 August 2019)

Ok, but it came up on a thread specially about Charlotte ðŸ˜ so can you see why it would appear to be a comment relating to her?


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## tristar (20 August 2019)

Levrier said:



			Do you genuinely believe that Carl Hester doesnâ€™t have humility?
		
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do you ?


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## daffy44 (20 August 2019)

I have trained my horses to Grand Prix, and I can easily ride them without spurs at that level, as I'm sure most GP riders can.  What people fail to grasp when they want to ban spurs etc, is the precision element of them, when a horse is trained to this level there are a lot of movements it has learnt, and obviously a greater degree of subtlety in the riders aids.  So its easy to ride without spurs in terms of forwardness and responsiveness, but not so easy in terms of refined communication.


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## {97702} (20 August 2019)

tristar said:



			do you ?
		
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Whatâ€™s that got to do with it? Iâ€™m not the one posting waffle on a forum....

For the record, he is one of the best horsemen of his generation


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## ester (20 August 2019)

I'm pretty sure carl and Charlotte's horses are much more off the leg than most! 
I too suspect they are clipped but also possibly in a soft changing coat already (mine was always better clipped as less hair to pull apparently). 
EKW I agree I like the rules for their clarity, there is no judgement involved. People saying well they are in arena people can see there has been no abuse of the horse (on fb) have rather missed the point I think.


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## milliepops (20 August 2019)

ester said:



			I'm pretty sure carl and Charlotte's horses are much more off the leg than most! 
I too suspect they are clipped but also possibly in a soft changing coat already (mine was always better clipped as less hair to pull apparently). 
EKW I agree I like the rules for their clarity, there is no judgement involved. People saying well they are in arena people can see there has been no abuse of the horse (on fb) have rather missed the point I think.
		
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It's not really a rule that would work if there were degrees of blood that were acceptable,  I agree. It has to be totally black and white.


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## ester (20 August 2019)

and we know how difficult it is to define whether a horse is being abused in the arena/on XC etc that's someone's judgement at the day. blood is there or not there.


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## conniegirl (20 August 2019)

tristar said:



			t
not causing more forceful leg aids,  but creating horses more sensitive to leg aids

.
		
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This single sentence proves that you have absolutely no idea whatsoever about the correct use of spurs and as such itâ€™s a damn good thing that you donâ€™t use them.

Spurs are not used for more forceful aids, they are used for more refined aids, on a GP dressage horse there are so many buttons trained into a very small area that the precision of a spur is needed!

As I said on the other thread, spurs are akin to saying â€œ3rd road on the leftâ€ when giving directions rather than saying â€œsomewhere over there ishâ€


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## tristar (21 August 2019)

Levrier said:



			Whatâ€™s that got to do with it? Iâ€™m not the one posting waffle on a forum....

For the record, he is one of the best horsemen of his generation
		
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you bought the subject of carl up, and how nice  of you to call anther persons ideas waffle, if i think the use of spurs is not a good thing i am entitled to that opinion.

also i think everyone is aware of carl`s riding ability, why do you feel the need to say it in such a defensive way?


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## tristar (21 August 2019)

conniegirl said:



			This single sentence proves that you have absolutely no idea whatsoever about the correct use of spurs and as such itâ€™s a damn good thing that you donâ€™t use them.

Spurs are not used for more forceful aids, they are used for more refined aids, on a GP dressage horse there are so many buttons trained into a very small area that the precision of a spur is needed!

As I said on the other thread, spurs are akin to saying â€œ3rd road on the leftâ€ when giving directions rather than saying â€œsomewhere over there ishâ€
		
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of course you are right, i have no idea about using spurs the main reason being i have never used them in my life, so i could not argue with that. 

its a damn good thing i don`t use them, mainly because having resisted the temptation i found ways to train my horse to respond to very light aids, this took a long time but it was the best thing i ever did, i learned so much.

forceful aids was referring to mp`s   comment that `banning spurs would reduce riders to dulled leg aids`

you say with a gp horse `the precision of a spur is needed`   daffy44  says they ride their horse with or without.

i should imagine lots of people would love  to post on h h forum but would be too afraid of the reaction!


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## milliepops (21 August 2019)

tristar said:



			you say with a gp horse `the precision of a spur is needed`   daffy44  says they ride their horse with or without.
		
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be fair, you have taken one line of daffy's response out of context.


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## ester (21 August 2019)

very light aids that enable you to perform all GP movements?


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## tristar (21 August 2019)

ester said:



			and we know how difficult it is to define whether a horse is being abused in the arena/on XC etc that's someone's judgement at the day. blood is there or not there.
		
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exactly, where does that leave charlotte, what does she feel inside herself?


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## ester (21 August 2019)

huh? I don't see how that relates to my comment at all.


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## milliepops (21 August 2019)

tristar said:



			exactly, where does that leave charlotte, what does she feel inside herself?
		
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ester said:



			huh? I don't see how that relates to my comment at all.
		
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nor me, but if you've read her post on FB you can see exactly what she feels inside herself. Gutted, mainly.


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## tristar (21 August 2019)

milliepops said:



			be fair, you have taken one line of daffy's response out of context.
		
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daffy says they can ride them at that level, gp, with or without


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## milliepops (21 August 2019)

daffy44 said:



			I have trained my horses to Grand Prix, and I can easily ride them without spurs at that level, as I'm sure most GP riders can.  *What people fail to grasp when they want to ban spurs etc, is the precision element of them, when a horse is trained to this level there are a lot of movements it has learnt, and obviously a greater degree of subtlety in the riders aids.  So its easy to ride without spurs in terms of forwardness and responsiveness, but not so easy in terms of refined communication.*

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I'm not going to put words in d's mouth, but here's the rest of the post, in case you missed it


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## tristar (21 August 2019)

ester said:



			huh? I don't see how that relates to my comment at all.
		
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i just did not want to bring in the blood word, and cause offence,  i was referring  the` blood is there or not there,`  because i am sure charlotte is stunned


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## conniegirl (21 August 2019)

tristar said:



			of course you are right, i have no idea about using spurs the main reason being i have never used them in my life, so i could not argue with that.

its a damn good thing i don`t use them, mainly because having resisted the temptation i found ways to train my horse to respond to very light aids, this took a long time but it was the best thing i ever did, i learned so much.

forceful aids was referring to mp`s   comment that `banning spurs would reduce riders to dulled leg aids`

you say with a gp horse `the precision of a spur is needed`   daffy44  says they ride their horse with or without.
		
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Your opinion is clearly based on sanctimonious ignorance, misinformation and a holier than thou attitude. Have you even ridden a dressage test above elementary level?

all my horses/ponies respond to very light leg aids with or without spurs, 90% of my schooling is done without spurs, I only reach for them when schooling has reached such a level that precision is needed. basic forward is achieved way before precision is needed (like years before)

you've taken Daffys comment out of context she says she can ride at that level but that it is more precise with spurs, and therefore easier for the horse to understand.

using spurs for forward is what I would expect of a novice rider, using spurs for their true purpose (refinement) takes training and a very very good seat/leg. 

I've not used spurs since I has my ankle reconstructed, mainly because that leg is now weak and I do not feel that it is stable enough to use spurs correctly.


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## Mule (21 August 2019)

I had no idea what sensitive skin some horses' have until I read about people's experiences on this thread. I had always assumed that the rider would have had to make a mistake with a leg aid for it to happen.


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## ester (21 August 2019)

nope, that still doesn't make sense with regards to quoting my post.


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## milliepops (21 August 2019)

mule said:



			I had no idea what sensitive skin some horses' have until I read about people's experiences on this thread. I had always assumed that the rider would have had to make a mistake with a leg aid for it to happen.
		
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when you've (as in one, not you specifically  )  only had the tougher skinned variety it's easy to look down your nose at the hairy patches left on horses after clipping etc as having something to hide about what kind of treatment they get... while there are definitely some people who are a bit rough with their legs it really is incredibly easy to rub a bald - or worse - spot on some horses very quickly without doing anything untoward at all.


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## Mule (21 August 2019)

milliepops said:



			when you've (as in one, not you specifically  )  only had the tougher skinned variety it's easy to look down your nose at the hairy patches left on horses after clipping etc as having something to hide about what kind of treatment they get... while there are definitely some people who are a bit rough with their legs it really is incredibly easy to rub a bald - or worse - spot on some horses very quickly without doing anything untoward at all.
		
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I wonder does breed come in to it? Mine have all had a dollop of ID in them.


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## ester (21 August 2019)

I have a hardy welsh cob (eye roll)


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## conniegirl (21 August 2019)

mule said:



			itive skin some horses' have until I read about people's experiences on this thread. I had always assumed that the rider would have had to make a mistake with a leg aid for it to happen.
		
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I've marked a pony before with a boot but I've never marked one with a spur, pony was a connie who when clipped marked easily.


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## tristar (21 August 2019)

milliepops said:



			it just smacks of superiority from this angle... what different outcome would you have predicted, say, from today's results?  

Do you think Isabel actually can't ride or Cosmo is a kickalong dobbin?
		
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i don`t think superiority was in anyone`s mind, certainly not mine, but since the idea was suggested it would be  interesting to see what difference there would have been, if any

i can`t comment on i werth she does not appeal to me as a rider, and why would anyone suggest cosmo is a dobbin?


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## milliepops (21 August 2019)

mule said:



			I wonder does breed come in to it? Mine have all had a dollop of ID in them.
		
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my personal experience is that the finer coated WBs and TBs are a PITA for it.  My welsh has the hide of a rhino. My partbred could get baldy spots when her winter (clipped) coat was getting brittle. So I think breeding probably does have quite an influence.  My new TB get cuts and grazes just rolling in the field whereas Kira got down and rolled on the cobblestones of an old stable apparently without even feeling it!


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## Mule (21 August 2019)

milliepops said:



			my personal experience is that the finer coated WBs and TBs are a PITA for it.  My welsh has the hide of a rhino. My partbred could get baldy spots when her winter (clipped) coat was getting brittle. So I think breeding probably does have quite an influence.  My new TB get cuts and grazes just rolling in the field whereas Kira got down and rolled on the cobblestones of an old stable apparently without even feeling it!
		
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Cobblestones ðŸ˜‚ She sounds like a character.


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## milliepops (21 August 2019)

yup! no sense no feeling.


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## tristar (21 August 2019)

i had horses years years a go who had hair rubbed from the boot friction.

but have not noticed it in recent years, perhaps my legs are stiller now perhaps

some horse have have rounder barrel bodies and some are flatter sided, which might contribute to rubbed hair


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## Meowy Catkin (21 August 2019)

My anglo-arab has tissue paper skin and very fine fur. Her winter coat is thin enough that she's never needed to be clipped (even when we were hacking up to three hours and having 45 min lessons that we hacked to). She needs a sheepskin cover on her girth and I have to watch what boots I wear. Those spur rests are a complete no-go and proud seams are an issue too.

Ester's pally is by the same arab stallion so I'd love to know if she's as sensitive too, or has the dam added some 'tougher skin' genes?


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## conniegirl (21 August 2019)

milliepops said:



			my personal experience is that the finer coated WBs and TBs are a PITA for it.  My welsh has the hide of a rhino. My partbred could get baldy spots when her winter (clipped) coat was getting brittle. So I think breeding probably does have quite an influence.  My new TB get cuts and grazes just rolling in the field whereas Kira got down and rolled on the cobblestones of an old stable apparently without even feeling it!
		
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My welsh B used to like getting down and rolling on the gravel drive. It was quite coarse gravel as well, the stuff would have been agony for a human to walk across barefoot.

My current welshie seems to have spots where the skin seems brittle and spots where it isnt and seems to prefer sleeping on concrete to sleeping on the nice thick shavings bed I provide

the last warmblood I had was utterly gorgeous but had skin like paper, a leather girth caused sores every time even when it was butter soft and scrupulously clean, couldn't use a cotton girth either! ended up with one of those old fashioned string girths or a prolite girth sleeve.


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## milliepops (21 August 2019)

tristar said:



			i had horses years years a go who had hair rubbed from the boot friction.

but have not noticed it in recent years, perhaps my legs are stiller now perhaps
		
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i think these days lots of people have boots with more detail - soft boots that wrinkle more, suede inners, spur rests etc which are all points of friction. 
My old fashioned plan leather tall boots are the best I have for thin skinned horses.


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## ester (21 August 2019)

she has issues with girth rubs (big belly/forward groove) but not anywhere else (welshxtb ish dam)
My first experience was the chestnut arab we had on loan, big barrel, massive walk and a rubbish saddle and would rub the whole length of your calf just walk hacking- hence the high polished boots necessity. A better saddle did help a bit but his walk didn't get on with my back well at all.


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## scats (21 August 2019)

tristar said:



			i had horses years years a go who had hair rubbed from the boot friction.

but have not noticed it in recent years, perhaps my legs are stiller now perhaps

some horse have have rounder barrel bodies and some are flatter sided, which might contribute to rubbed hair
		
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My very barrel-like, deep bodied part bred welsh is incredibly easy to leave rub marks on when she is clipped.  Sheâ€™s oniy 15hh, but my legs donâ€™t even come to the bottom of her belly as she is so deep.
My much more sensitive skinned sports horse, who is the same height, never has a rub on her.  My leg sits much more â€˜roundâ€™ her due to her being what I consider a normal bodied horse.

Due to having a slightly more unstable left ankle now due to it being broken so many times, I donâ€™t ride in spurs.  Interestingly, itâ€™s the left side of my horse that gets the most bald rub when she is clipped, so I definitely have more movement in that foot/leg.


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## tristar (21 August 2019)

conniegirl said:



			Your opinion is clearly based on sanctimonious ignorance, misinformation and a holier than thou attitude. Have you even ridden a dressage test above elementary level?

all my horses/ponies respond to very light leg aids with or without spurs, 90% of my schooling is done without spurs, I only reach for them when schooling has reached such a level that precision is needed. basic forward is achieved way before precision is needed (like years before)

you've taken Daffys comment out of context she says she can ride at that level but that it is more precise with spurs, and therefore easier for the horse to understand.

using spurs for forward is what I would expect of a novice rider, using spurs for their true purpose (refinement) takes training and a very very good seat/leg. 

I've not used spurs since I has my ankle reconstructed, mainly because that leg is now weak and I do not feel that it is stable enough to use spurs correctly.
		
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 you  misunderstand where i am coming from

i have not taken it out of context, i know what daffy means, but the fact they can ride gp movements without spurs  shows it can be done

there are other schools of training than comp dressage, and if spurs were not allowed we may not be having this debate, did the spurs draw blood


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## conniegirl (21 August 2019)

tristar said:



			you  misunderstand where i am coming from

i have not taken it out of context, i know what daffy means, but the fact they can ride gp movements without spurs  shows it can be done

there are other schools of training than comp dressage, and if spurs were not allowed we may not be having this debate, did the spurs draw blood
		
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There are many other schools and the vast majority of those other schools use spurs at the higher levels for refinement exactly the same way spurs are used in dressage. 

Just because it can be done without spurs does not mean it should. 
A very dull aid whilst expecting a quick and precise result leads to frustration on the part of the horse. 
If I slap a page of typing down in front of you and ask you to correct the error in it, it will take you time and result in frustration, where as if I say there is an error in the 3rd line of the second paragraph, please correct it, then you will complete the task much faster and with a lot less frustration.

if spurs were banned we would likely be having a very similar conversation but it would be about boot rubs. As shown from many posters above it is possible to mark a horse and draw blood without spurs and without force.


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## tristar (21 August 2019)

conniegirl said:



			There are many other schools and the vast majority of those other schools use spurs at the higher levels for refinement exactly the same way spurs are used in dressage. 

Just because it can be done without spurs does not mean it should. 
A very dull aid whilst expecting a quick and precise result leads to frustration on the part of the horse. 
If I slap a page of typing down in front of you and ask you to correct the error in it, it will take you time and result in frustration, where as if I say there is an error in the 3rd line of the second paragraph, please correct it, then you will complete the task much faster and with a lot less frustration.

if spurs were banned we would likely be having a very similar conversation but it would be about boot rubs. As shown from many posters above it is possible to mark a horse and draw blood without spurs and without force.
		
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no because boot rubs are an accepted part of rider leg friction, and as far as know do not draw blood, and certain breeds of horse, ie.  big tbs who often walk in a snake like body movement with a huge overtrack move the riders leg more  than say a part bred or iberian  horse  that tend to steps under itself and not move the leg so much.

but the horse is not a page of text it is a living creature and even subject, in my experience to  picking up brain waves, ie think canter etc

but whatever school of riding you follow you do not have to use the spurs its a choice.

if tests were adapted to accommodate  differing  response times and the emphasis was on collection, could it be spurs would not be used and we would not need to waste half the day worrying about blood on horses sides

hope i dont sound too sanctimonious


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## milliepops (21 August 2019)

tristar said:



			if tests were adapted to accommodate  differing  response times and the emphasis was on collection, could it be spurs would not be used and we would not need to waste half the day worrying about blood on horses sides
		
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I understand where you're coming from but I think your argument is misplaced in a discussion about competitive dressage.
For dressage to make a competition where multiple competitors can be judged and scored against a set of criteria and ranked, what you are suggesting would be pretty impossible to achieve.
It's a defined sport, you need to make a new one. If you want to see it at the europeans or olympics then there's some way to go before we can move away from this discussion.


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## tristar (21 August 2019)

milliepops said:



			I understand where you're coming from but I think your argument is misplaced in a discussion about competitive dressage.
For dressage to make a competition where multiple competitors can be judged and scored against a set of criteria and ranked, what you are suggesting would be pretty impossible to achieve.
It's a defined sport, you need to make a new one. If you want to see it at the europeans or olympics then there's some way to go before we can move away from this discussion.
		
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change the goals posts


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## Meowy Catkin (21 August 2019)

ester said:



			she has issues with girth rubs (big belly/forward groove) but not anywhere else (welshxtb ish dam)
My first experience was the chestnut arab we had on loan, big barrel, massive walk and a rubbish saddle and would rub the whole length of your calf just walk hacking- hence the high polished boots necessity. A better saddle did help a bit but his walk didn't get on with my back well at all.
		
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Yes - forward girth groove and big belly here too. 

I know what you mean about the walk and your back too. A 'waddling' walk sets my back off. Thankfully that one wasn't my horse (was lovely though).


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## {97702} (21 August 2019)

tristar said:



			you bought the subject of carl up, and how nice  of you to call anther persons ideas waffle, if i think the use of spurs is not a good thing i am entitled to that opinion.

also i think everyone is aware of carl`s riding ability, why do you feel the need to say it in such a defensive way?
		
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You clearly have a very active imagination, I was not in the least defensive ðŸ˜„ and we werenâ€™t actually talking about his riding ability, we were talking about his ability as a trainer if you recall - very different


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## Elf On A Shelf (21 August 2019)

Faracat said:



			Yes - forward girth groove and big belly here too.

I know what you mean about the walk and your back too. A 'waddling' walk sets my back off. Thankfully that one wasn't my horse (was lovely though).
		
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I ride a horse at work who has an incredibly bland walk. No oomph, no bounce just very meh and it really kills my back!


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## conniegirl (21 August 2019)

tristar said:



			no because boot rubs are an accepted part of rider leg friction, and as far as know do not draw blood, and certain breeds of horse, ie.  big tbs who often walk in a snake like body movement with a huge overtrack move the riders leg more  than say a part bred or iberian  horse  that tend to steps under itself and not move the leg so much.

but the horse is not a page of text it is a living creature and even subject, in my experience to  picking up brain waves, ie think canter etc

but whatever school of riding you follow you do not have to use the spurs its a choice.

if tests were adapted to accommodate  differing  response times and the emphasis was on collection, could it be spurs would not be used and we would not need to waste half the day worrying about blood on horses sides

hope i dont sound too sanctimonious
		
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Ive seen blood from boot rubs plenty of times. The mark from the spur is likely the same as a mark from a boot, a function of friction on a big moving warmblood

I choose to use spurs to make things easier for my horse. Spanish riding school, top western riders etc all use spurs to make things easier for the horse to understand, not to cause pain or to reenforce an aid but to make it more precise and thus easier for the horse to understand exactly what you want. It prevents frustration from the horse, makes schooling easier on them as it is easier for them to understand and give me exactly what i want and thus more likely to get the praise they seek.

I suspect i am talking to a closed mind, you do not seem to want to understand the proper purpose of spurs and are happy in your ignorant bubble of spurs being solely for inflicting pain


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## milliepops (21 August 2019)

tristar said:



			change the goals posts
		
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how?  where? what would the new judging/criteria be? how would you fit it into an olympic sport and the constraints that entails?
 I'm interested in your views but with these cryptic 3 word answers it feels a bit hard to see how anything you're suggesting could be implemented in the real world, in our lifetimes?


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## splashgirl45 (21 August 2019)

cant believe some if these posts,  my old tb cross had a very sensitive skin and the reins and my boots would rub if he had been clipped  ....in summer when he wasnt clipped and i was competing and using more rein and more leg he never marked,  it was only when he was clipped for winter hacking (i didnt compete in the winter)..  it was unfortunate for all of the people who were eliminated, and maybe they will look at the type of spurs they are using in future which wont be  a bad thing, but agree that spurs are used to refine the signal to the horse and not a punishment and i used to use them when i competed as well..


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## ycbm (21 August 2019)

I think given the number eliminated, we'll probably see some changes. Maybe some will move to spurs with a much bigger ball. I have some I was using on my cob last year.  They are huge and I took some stick for it on the forum from some posters who didn't understand,  but I bought them deliberately to be as mild as possible while enabling me to make contact with my heel under his round torso.

The bigger the surface area and the freer the rotation, the less chance there is of marking. I predict big balls will become fashionable ðŸ˜


.


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## milliepops (21 August 2019)

genuine question, what sort of changes do you anticipate?
one eliminated blood in the mouth mid test
One eliminated blood on flank post test
2 (i think?) lameness - they had passed the trot up.

This seems like a mixture of bad luck and coincidence rather than suggesting there's something wrong with the rules to me.


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## Fanatical (21 August 2019)

ycbm said:



			I think given the number eliminated, we'll probably see some changes. Maybe some will move to spurs with a much bigger ball. I have some I was using on my cob last year.  They are huge and I took some stick for it on the forum from some posters who didn't understand,  but I bought them deliberately to be as mild as possible while enabling me to make contact with my heel under his round torso.

The bigger the surface area and the freer the rotation, the less chance there is of marking. I predict big balls will become fashionable ðŸ˜


.
		
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They weren't all for the blood rule. One was for blood in the mouth when the horse bit its tongue and the other two were lameness during test.


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## ycbm (21 August 2019)

If your response is to me MP,  I haven't suggested that there's any necessity to change the rules.  

.


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## milliepops (21 August 2019)

ycbm said:



			I think given the number eliminated, we'll probably see some changes.
.
		
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Oh I see, from this did you mean changes in what competitors would choose?

I still think that a one-off out of the hundreds of tests she has ridden is possibly not going to lead to a big change for CDJ and I don't know what the other competitor whose horse bit its tongue could do to avoid that happening again tbh.


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## sportsmansB (21 August 2019)

My big lump of an irish horse (well, he's 60% TB i suppose) has a coat which marks so easily during coat changing time that I am actually better off wearing roller ball spurs (metal only, the plastic ones get him too) than just plain boots, as the boots rub him worse. He is an obedient horse who has evented to a high level and rides nicely, its not a schooling issue, its just how he is. If I use the roller balls I don't get any rubs. So I'm not sure that banning spurs fixes this issue at all. 

Allowing belly bands? Maybe. He doesn't rub with a belly band on but it isn't allowed for dressage comps. I'd imagine it would potentially dull the very precise aids at GP though, so maybe that wouldn't work.


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## tristar (21 August 2019)

conniegirl said:



			Ive seen blood from boot rubs plenty of times. The mark from the spur is likely the same as a mark from a boot, a function of friction on a big moving warmblood

I choose to use spurs to make things easier for my horse. Spanish riding school, top western riders etc all use spurs to make things easier for the horse to understand, not to cause pain or to reenforce an aid but to make it more precise and thus easier for the horse to understand exactly what you want. It prevents frustration from the horse, makes schooling easier on them as it is easier for them to understand and give me exactly what i want and thus more likely to get the praise they seek.

I suspect i am talking to a closed mind, you do not seem to want to understand the proper purpose of spurs and are happy in your ignorant bubble of spurs being solely for inflicting pain
		
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i do not suppose it would occur to you that you have a closed mind, or that you are in an ignorant bubble, its you who have bought  up pain?


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## conniegirl (21 August 2019)

tristar said:



			i do not suppose it would occur to you that you have a closed mind, or that you are in an ignorant bubble, its you who have bought  up pain?
		
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So I'm ignorant because I know the actual purpose of spurs? 
It was you who said:


tristar said:



			causing more forceful leg aids
		
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It is you who will not see that that is not how spurs are supposed to be used or indeed are used at that level. If you have seen spurs used to create more forceful leg aids then they were being used incorrectly and by someone who did not understand thier purpose

I've yet to see a rational argument from you as to why using spurs to create a more refined signal for a horse should be banned? thats what you wanted wasn't it when you said all spurs should be banned and illegal?

going on your logic, anything that could potentially be misused to create a more forceful aid should be banned, so crops, bits, bridles, martingales, headcollars, halters would all have to go


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## Goldenstar (21 August 2019)

I had to ditch my ariats on one horse the spur rest which is rubber marked her I shaved it off the edge would still mark her .
Luckily she was very forward itâ€™s must be a nightmare on a less forward horse .
The whole team GB approach to this was spot on .
Very very disappointing of course .


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## daffy44 (21 August 2019)

Hi, thank you for the support MP and Conniegirl.  I will clarify what I said, I do ride in spurs, plastic roller ball ones at home, and metal ball ones in competition, but I do also ride at home without them, but I like trying different things, I also sometimes ride in a headcollar and sometimes bareback, because I find that sort of thing fun (on a comfortable, sane horse!).

I know because I have tried, that I can ride my GP horses through GP movements without spurs, and I know I am certainly not alone in being able to that, lots of GP riders can do the same.  I also know that to get through the entire GP test with the best chance of a mistake free test I would want my spurs on, I want that for refined communication, not for more forwardness or responsiveness.  Isolating and playing with GP movements at home is very different from the entire test in a competition environment.

When you have trained a horse to GP you realise just how many things your amazing horse has learnt and you have several aids for several different things are very close together, so the spurs help with precision and refinement.


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## conniegirl (21 August 2019)

daffy44 said:



			When you have trained a horse to GP you realise just how many things your amazing horse has learnt and you have several aids for several different things are very close together, so the spurs help with precision and refinement.
		
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Well said! the furthest I ever got was medium many years ago but even at that level my amazing pony knew so many things. 
I now play round at novice and very very occassionaly Elem but primarily do showing so I don't need lots and lots of buttons and I have to say I miss having them. 
Hmm wonder if my 18yr old welsh cob is up for learning some new buttons!


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## daffy44 (21 August 2019)

Yes Conniegirl!  Its always fun to learn some new buttons, do it x


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## Lexi_ (21 August 2019)

On a sort of related note to the whole â€œyes you *can* ride a GP test without spurs but they give you more refinementâ€ thing, would anyone mind letting me know if the same applies to riding at that level in a snaffle instead of a double bridle? I see quite a lot of photos of the top riders training at home in a snaffle and drop noseband rather than the full double bridle so have often wondered.

Apologies if thatâ€™s a really daft question - Iâ€™ve never ridden in a double bridle so donâ€™t really understand how they work! This is such an interesting thread.


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## ester (21 August 2019)

F was perfecting his half passes at 24   we had a late rush on dressage prowess (with the best instruction I've ever had) so crack on


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## ester (21 August 2019)

There's also no getting away from the fact that sport is won on small margins, it always will be.


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## milliepops (21 August 2019)

ester said:



			There's also no getting away from the fact that sport is won on small margins, it always will be.
		
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this ^^ i think the team competition only had one mark between bronze and 4th?  heading back to check 
eta, yep not quite 1, even.
Barely anything between 2nd and 5th.
https://results.hippodata.de/2019/1711/docs/r_d01t.pdf


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## tristar (21 August 2019)

conniegirl said:



			Ive seen blood from boot rubs plenty of times. The mark from the spur is likely the same as a mark from a boot, a function of friction on a big moving warmblood

I choose to use spurs to make things easier for my horse. Spanish riding school, top western riders etc all use spurs to make things easier for the horse to understand, not to cause pain or to reenforce an aid but to make it more precise and thus easier for the horse to understand exactly what you want. It prevents frustration from the horse, makes schooling easier on them as it is easier for them to understand and give me exactly what i want and thus more likely to get the praise they seek.

I suspect i am talking to a closed mind, you do not seem to want to understand the proper purpose of spurs and are happy in your ignorant bubble of spurs being solely for inflicting pain
		
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so far you have called sanctimonious, ignorant, holier than thou, misinformed, closed in mind having no understanding,and you have misquoted me regarding the forceful leg aids.

you sound an utterly horrible person and i will not respond to anymore of your  posts


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## conniegirl (21 August 2019)

Lexi_ said:



			On a sort of related note to the whole â€œyes you *can* ride a GP test without spurs but they give you more refinementâ€ thing, would anyone mind letting me know if the same applies to riding at that level in a snaffle instead of a double bridle? I see quite a lot of photos of the top riders training at home in a snaffle and drop noseband rather than the full double bridle so have often wondered.

Apologies if thatâ€™s a really daft question - Iâ€™ve never ridden in a double bridle so donâ€™t really understand how they work! This is such an interesting thread.
		
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yes the double is also used for refinement. I believe that in BD competitions you can ride in a snaffle at any level now (it changed a few years ago) but having the extra communication of the double makes life so much easier for you and the horse.


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## conniegirl (21 August 2019)

ester said:



			F was perfecting his half passes at 24  we had a late rush on dressage prowess (with the best instruction I've ever had) so crack on 

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got to get my knee sorted, cobbus' skin sorted and then find me a decent instructor who isn't either a) a billion miles away, or b) only available once in a blue moon! really really makes me want to go out and play though (would be far more fun than sat in an office working on spreadsheets)


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## daffy44 (21 August 2019)

Lexi_ said:



			On a sort of related note to the whole â€œyes you *can* ride a GP test without spurs but they give you more refinementâ€ thing, would anyone mind letting me know if the same applies to riding at that level in a snaffle instead of a double bridle? I see quite a lot of photos of the top riders training at home in a snaffle and drop noseband rather than the full double bridle so have often wondered.

Apologies if thatâ€™s a really daft question - Iâ€™ve never ridden in a double bridle so donâ€™t really understand how they work! This is such an interesting thread.
		
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Hi Lexi, not a daft question at all, but it really depends on the horse.  Of my two GP horses, one goes well in both the snaffle and the double, and I ride her at home in the snaffle and only use the double for competition.  My other GP horse absolutely hates the double so he does everything both at home and competition in a snaffle.  I have had other horses that never really settle to the snaffle, but love the double, so its really down to the indivdual horse.

eta: BD changed its rules a few years ago so National competitions can be ridden in either the snaffle or the double up to and including GP, its the riders choice.  But under FEI rules, so International competitions, the double must be used from PSG to GP.


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## ester (21 August 2019)

conniegirl said:



			got to get my knee sorted, cobbus' skin sorted and then find me a decent instructor who isn't either a) a billion miles away, or b) only available once in a blue moon! really really makes me want to go out and play though (would be far more fun than sat in an office working on spreadsheets)
		
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I'm sat in an office listening to my robot in the room next door waiting for it to finish waiting until I can go pony shopping


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## milliepops (21 August 2019)

ester said:



			I'm sat in an office listening to my robot in the room next door waiting for it to finish waiting until I can go pony shopping 

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hang on, you can't just sneak that bombshell into a news related thread!! what, where, etc?


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## ester (21 August 2019)

pmsl I meant long term  calm down!


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## Rowreach (21 August 2019)

ester said:



			I'm sat in an office listening to my robot in the room next door waiting for it to finish waiting until I can go pony shopping 

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You what???


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## ester (21 August 2019)

and you, blimey you lot. 

I did tell the doc I was trying stopping the meds as it stops me riding, priorities


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## milliepops (21 August 2019)

FFS ester 

False alarm! lol!


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## conniegirl (21 August 2019)

ester said:



			I'm sat in an office listening to my robot in the room next door waiting for it to finish waiting until I can go pony shopping 

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milliepops said:



			hang on, you can't just sneak that bombshell into a news related thread!! what, where, etc?
		
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pony shopping??????


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## Rowreach (21 August 2019)

milliepops said:



			FFS ester 

False alarm! lol!

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I was thinking I'd have something other than job applications to do on a rainy afternoon.  Thanks for nothing ester


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## ester (21 August 2019)

STAND DOWN


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## conniegirl (21 August 2019)

ester said:



			STAND DOWN
		
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awwww, but we like pony shopping!


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## ester (21 August 2019)

nothing like a nice thread derail. I promise I probably won't sneakily buy a horse without telling you all


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## Mule (21 August 2019)

Since this thread is dressage related, I will just add that the beast and I learned how to do travers today. He was a starðŸ¤© Love him.


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## tristar (21 August 2019)

mule said:



			Since this thread is dressage related, I will just add that the beast and I learned how to do travers today. He was a starðŸ¤© Love him.
		
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well done


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## Mule (21 August 2019)

tristar said:



			well done
		
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Thank you *happy danceðŸ’ƒ


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## tristar (21 August 2019)

milliepops said:



			I understand where you're coming from but I think your argument is misplaced in a discussion about competitive dressage.
For dressage to make a competition where multiple competitors can be judged and scored against a set of criteria and ranked, what you are suggesting would be pretty impossible to achieve.
It's a defined sport, you need to make a new one. If you want to see it at the europeans or olympics then there's some way to go before we can move away from this discussion.
		
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but do not  you think all sports have the possibility to evolve somewhat, especially if it involves animals and their welfare for example?  or evolution in test formats, modification of judging criterea?


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## milliepops (21 August 2019)

tristar said:



			but do not  you think all sports have the possibility to evolve somewhat, especially if it involves animals and their welfare for example?  or evolution in test formats, modification of judging criterea?
		
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I think all of our sports can and do change for animal welfare reasons as well as other reasons.
Of the olympic ones some big changes that have happened might be the shorter GP test that was trialed recently, reducing long format eventing is another. These have an effect on the horses and the nature of the sport.



tristar said:



			if tests were adapted to accommodate  differing  response times and the emphasis was on collection, could it be spurs would not be used and we would not need to waste half the day worrying about blood on horses sides
		
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I don't really see how you could actually achieve this ^^ and keep competitive dressage as we would recognise it as a sport.
If the tests had differing times, how would that work? How would you allow my slow responding welsh extra thinking time compared to MSJ freestyle  would a slower response that eventually reached the same quality of work be worth the same as a faster response?  is eventual quality more important than speed of response?

Logistically, how would the tests be scheduled?  would they be running early or late as a matter of course? how would people work in?
How would spectators understand the rules or criteria? for the sustainability of top level sports now, spectator buy-in is essential to guarantee the interest levels required for funding, sad but true.

Putting the emphasis on collection might actually *not* do a lot for horse welfare. the GP test has a great test of collection already but the need to also show extension means people must train with variety and the top combinations have to do both well.

Can you give some scenarios or examples of how you think it could work? at the moment  I just have more questions.


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## tristar (21 August 2019)

not packing in so many sudden changes of difficult movements. 

how its evolves or modifies is for FEI to discover.

its for you competitors to take your own sport forwards and develop it, you are  asking  me when i am asking you,!  how do you see it changing if at all.?


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## milliepops (21 August 2019)

GP as the pinnacle of international dressage competition should be difficult. 
I don't want to see medals won on the strength of tests with an elementary level intensity, that makes a mockery of the whole thing, especially with the exceptional horse power that is being produced these days.  Modern WBs come out of the womb engaged and on the bit, it's not like the old TBs stiffly lumbering around above the contact and not over the back.
I want to see the sport evolve , of course I do, but in ways that make it more accessible to people from the grass roots up, more interesting to watch, more transparent, with a strong eye on horse welfare which I think the blood rule supports.  

Forgive me I think it's a cop out to say things should change but then not put forward any suggestions in ways you think it could be improved.


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## Caol Ila (21 August 2019)

Leaving more time for horses to respond to movements?  What a great idea.  Sounds like my schooling sessions.

Me: Canter.
Horse: I will once I have a cup of tea.
Me: Now would be nice.
Horse: And read the Guardian.
Me: Okay.
Horse: That canter aid sucked.  I'm going to check Facebook.
Me: Yeah, it did.  I'm sorry.  I'll ask again.
Horse: Fine.  Here's a canter, but you didn't deserve it.
Me: I know.  I'm sorry.  You're a good horse.

Why we haven't gotten to FEI levels, I don't know.


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## Curly_Feather (22 August 2019)

Caol Ila said:



			Leaving more time for horses to respond to movements?  What a great idea.  Sounds like my schooling sessions.

Me: Canter.
Horse: I will once I have a cup of tea.
Me: Now would be nice.
Horse: And read the Guardian.
Me: Okay.
Horse: That canter aid sucked.  I'm going to check Facebook.
Me: Yeah, it did.  I'm sorry.  I'll ask again.
Horse: Fine.  Here's a canter, but you didn't deserve it.
Me: I know.  I'm sorry.  You're a good horse.

Why we haven't gotten to FEI levels, I don't know.
		
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This is exactly how mine goes as well! Yours at least formulates full sentence responses. Mine goes "meh" and shrugs.


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## tristar (22 August 2019)

if you are part of the scene its up to you  and the governing bodies to to decide and change and evolve, i see you have not made any suggestions how things  may change in the future, you asked me the question, but have no answers yourself.

i think grass roots level is on my mind, and it needs to be more interesting to watch, many people do not enjoy watching so they tell me, i was really surprised.

` gp should be difficult`, i find that hard to swallow, we want to see horses with joie de vivre    more fluid, more beautiful in expression showing off the trained horse enjoying his work,   thats not a cop out, its a vision

my novice friend is a suoerb judge of horse and rider, i always ask his unbiased eye for an opinion, as in what did you think of that then?  and get a surprisingly accurate diagnoses, imagine that learning from someone on their first horse.

`modern warmbloods come out on the engaged and on the  bit and ready trained` but what about collection do they come out  collected?  do this  mean they are ready earlier to advance than previous generations, and stiff tbs is where it becomes interesting to me because if they were stiff the grassroots training is the fault and the way riding is taught at the most basic level

there is no cop out its up to the people who run the sport to act when and where needed

differing reponse times not longer in across the board


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## tristar (22 August 2019)

Caol Ila said:



			Leaving more time for horses to respond to movements?  What a great idea.  Sounds like my schooling sessions.

Me: Canter.
Horse: I will once I have a cup of tea.
Me: Now would be nice.
Horse: And read the Guardian.
Me: Okay.
Horse: That canter aid sucked.  I'm going to check Facebook.
Me: Yeah, it did.  I'm sorry.  I'll ask again.
Horse: Fine.  Here's a canter, but you didn't deserve it.
Me: I know.  I'm sorry.  You're a good horse.

Why we haven't gotten to FEI levels, I don't know.
		
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err,    are you using spurs ?


should`nt  he be reading horse and hound, i`d try coffee,  more caffeine


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## Mule (22 August 2019)

I wonder do people at high level dressage need horses that are naturally forward thinking or can they do it by training ones that aren't. I can imagine piaffe and passage and similar takes a lot of energy. Wouldn't it be easier to train it on more reactive types?


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## conniegirl (22 August 2019)

tristar said:



			if you are part of the scene its up to you and the governing bodies to to decide and change and evolve, i see you have not made any suggestions how things may change in the future, you asked me the question, but have no answers yourself.
		
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why should she suggest ways to change the sport when she clearly sees no need for the sport to change, you are the one wanting change therefore it is up to you to suggest feasible/practical ways it should change.


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## milliepops (22 August 2019)

mule said:



			I wonder do people at high level dressage need horses that are naturally forward thinking or can they do it by training ones that aren't. I can imagine piaffe and passage and similar takes a lot of energy. Wouldn't it be easier to train it on more reactive types?
		
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I think many of the top horses are super hot & forward.
I can only speak of my puny efforts on a "reactive but not in a hot forward way" horse. it's sodding hard! You constantly have to teach them to behave in a way that is against their nature (as well as teaching them the exercises and giving time to develop their strength and stamina).
I genuinely don't think the spurs are used to make them more forward. something I have learned is that if I want my horse to react fast and precisely, I have to give a fast precise aid.


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## aliby (22 August 2019)

" ` gp should be difficult`, i find that hard to swallow, we want to see horses with joie de vivre more fluid, more beautiful in expression "
Read more at https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/cdj-eliminated.779395/page-5#vS5HoUud3IzIeLEA.99

It should be difficult but look easy. As in the pinnacle of any sport


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## Mule (22 August 2019)

milliepops said:



			I think many of the top horses are super hot & forward.
I can only speak of my puny efforts on a "reactive but not in a hot forward way" horse. it's sodding hard! You constantly have to teach them to behave in a way that is against their nature (as well as teaching them the exercises and giving time to develop their strength and stamina).
I genuinely don't think the spurs are used to make them more forward. something I have learned is that if I want my horse to react fast and precisely, I have to give a fast precise aid.
		
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Good tip about the fast precise aid. I've  only relatively recently found that giving them the aid when the correct leg is in the air makes a massive difference. It's made a big change being able to feel where the legs are.


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## milliepops (22 August 2019)

conniegirl said:



			why should she suggest ways to change the sport when she clearly sees no need for the sport to change, you are the one wanting change therefore it is up to you to suggest feasible/practical ways it should change.
		
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^^ well, this, but I will have a go at some of the comments anyway 



tristar said:



			if you are part of the scene its up to you  and the governing bodies to to decide and change and evolve, i see you have not made any suggestions how things  may change in the future, you asked me the question, but have no answers yourself.
		
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the sport is evolving, constantly. I am happy with it.  I think other people with greater experience than me e.g. at the top international levels are coming up with interesting proposals around judging, and different tests & stuff that won't affect me directly so they are best placed to make the decisions on them.
At a national level I think that the governing body is doing interesting things in terms of pathways for different competitors and the judging I receive tells me that their judge training is developing in a good way too.
I think the general standard across the board is improving - fast - and that speaks volumes about what is happening on a day to day level.




			i think grass roots level is on my mind, and it needs to be more interesting to watch, many people do not enjoy watching so they tell me, i was really surprised.
		
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lower level dressage is pretty boring to watch. People who aren't into dressage at all will probably never find a set test of any interest, but the freestyles are definitely attracting more of an audience. Interactive judging is one example of a development that is supposed to engage with the audience more , it seems really popular and remarkably accurate in terms of matching the actual judging 




			` gp should be difficult`, i find that hard to swallow, we want to see horses with joie de vivre    more fluid, more beautiful in expression showing off the trained horse enjoying his work,   thats not a cop out, its a vision
		
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No one in their right mind would say GP dressage was easy.
It's almost, just about, nearly impossible!
(I'm talking about riding a test, 6 minutes of relentless effort, not riding some 1 tempis or a bit of passage)
Really talented horses and riders make it look effortless but only because of the huge effort of training and preparation.  Yes I think it should be difficult, otherwise we would all be out in Toyko on our home produced dobbins vying for the gold medal.
The kudos, medals and high scores reward all the graft that has gone into accomplishing a hugely difficult task.




			my novice friend is a suoerb judge of horse and rider, i always ask his unbiased eye for an opinion, as in what did you think of that then?  and get a surprisingly accurate diagnoses, imagine that learning from someone on their first horse.
		
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I'm not really sure what point you are trying to make with this but yes I agree that some novice riders have a good natural feel for a horse, lucky them... most of us have to work hard at that for all of our lives.




			`modern warmbloods come out on the engaged and on the  bit and ready trained` but what about collection do they come out  collected?  do this  mean they are ready earlier to advance than previous generations, and stiff tbs is where it becomes interesting to me because if they were stiff the grassroots training is the fault and the way riding is taught at the most basic level
		
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I didn't say ready trained, I said on the bit. Meaning their conformation is so good as young horses that they are set up to be athletes right from the start.  Good angles, good proportions. No they don't come out collected, I don't understand why you would say that. Collection comes from training and strength.  They probably are ready to advance at the lower levels earlier - because of a natural talent and good natural paces. A good natured horse that is naturally balanced and supple could get to elementary fairly easily and quickly without needing Capital-C Collection just by virtue of what it was born with.

Re "stiff TBs" I was referring to the decades-old videos of Olympics in the past, where the dressage is virtually unrecognisable from what we see today.  




			there is no cop out its up to the people who run the sport to act when and where needed
		
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I think they are acting. I am happy with what is happening in the sport - in general - I think there will always be things that need looking at but that's no different to any other sport or discipline, but you are the one who keeps saying things need to change?




			differing reponse times not longer in across the board
		
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I'm sorry I still really haven't got a clue what you mean by this?


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## milliepops (22 August 2019)

mule said:



			Good tip about the fast precise aid. I've  only relatively recently found that giving them the aid when the correct leg is in the air makes a massive difference. It's made a big change being able to feel where the legs are.
		
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I read a while back something that I think I knew intuitively but hadn't thought about before, about how there is only one moment in the walk "stride" that you can ask for a walk-canter trans and the horse can do it 100% cleanly. miss that moment and it will strike off wrong or add a step of trot. I can feel when that moment is naturally, but if I try to think about it then i will fluff it  that kind of stuff is awkward to learn!


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## Mule (22 August 2019)

milliepops said:



			I read a while back something that I think I knew intuitively but hadn't thought about before, about how there is only one moment in the walk "stride" that you can ask for a walk-canter trans and the horse can do it 100% cleanly. miss that moment and it will strike off wrong or add a step of trot. I can feel when that moment is naturally, but if I try to think about it then i will fluff it  that kind of stuff is awkward to learn!
		
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I find if I shut my eyes it's much easier to feel things. I suppose that's where having a quiet horse comes in handyðŸ˜‰


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## conniegirl (22 August 2019)

milliepops said:



			I read a while back something that I think I knew intuitively but hadn't thought about before, about how there is only one moment in the walk "stride" that you can ask for a walk-canter trans and the horse can do it 100% cleanly. miss that moment and it will strike off wrong or add a step of trot. I can feel when that moment is naturally, but if I try to think about it then i will fluff it  that kind of stuff is awkward to learn!
		
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mule said:



			I find if I shut my eyes it's much easier to feel things. I suppose that's where having a quiet horse comes in handyðŸ˜‰
		
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I had similar when I was quite young, I was bought a pony who was well above my level in terms of dressage, my beautiful and very forgiving connemara.
In one showing championship the decision was between my connie and a professionally produced connie, the Judge asked us to show an extended trot in the go round.
I was 12 yrs old at the time, had owned this pony all of about 6 weeks, I'd never been asked for anything similar in a show class (and didnt do dressage then), I had absolutely no idea how to ask for extended trot at all, so I panicked a bit and kind of went with instinct. Pony quite absolutely flew, his back end went so far under him he practically sat down and jaws literally dropped at the edge of the ring, it was breathtaking and exhilarating to sit on. We won the championship, judge couldn't keep her eyes off him but it took me a year of lessons to consciously be able to get that again. I instinctively pressed the right buttons at the right moment, but doing it again, whilst thinking about it, or at a set marker, that was too much for 12yr old me.
It was that trot that made me take him to do Dressage and he taught me so so much!


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## Mule (22 August 2019)

conniegirl said:



			I had similar when I was quite young, I was bought a pony who was well above my level in terms of dressage, my beautiful and very forgiving connemara.
In one showing championship the decision was between my connie and a professionally produced connie, the Judge asked us to show an extended trot in the go round.
I was 12 yrs old at the time, had owned this pony all of about 6 weeks, I'd never been asked for anything similar in a show class (and didnt do dressage then), I had absolutely no idea how to ask for extended trot at all, so I panicked a bit and kind of went with instinct. Pony quite absolutely flew, his back end went so far under him he practically sat down and jaws literally dropped at the edge of the ring, it was breathtaking and exhilarating to sit on. We won the championship, judge couldn't keep her eyes off him but it took me a year of lessons to consciously be able to get that again. I instinctively pressed the right buttons at the right moment, but doing it again, whilst thinking about it, or at a set marker, that was too much for 12yr old me.
It was that trot that made me take him to do Dressage and he taught me so so much!
		
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I'm very bad for overthinking things. It's such a bad habit.


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## SEL (22 August 2019)

I've been holding off comments because I'm not a "dressage person" - the only medals mine would win are for speed eating.

I do think it is shocking that CDJ's horse came out with blood in its side even if only a drop. This isn't a new ride where you suddenly find yourself with a horse with super sensitive skin, this is a horse she's trained and ridden for a while. So unless there was some form of external fault (spur, horse usually prepared differently - don't know) then her riding caused this. She sounded mortified in her statement so I'm pretty sure it won't happen again.

I was less impressed with the 'social media is being hard on me' part of that statement. Tough! Social media gets her the lucrative sponsorship deals and allows her to live the dream she's worked so hard for. I'm sure there were vile comments, but as with anyone in the public domain she needs to learn to take the rough with the smooth.

At no point did I think we should ban spurs. They are as much a tool as a bit - both are capable of causing harm with the wrong rider.

The two horses eliminated for being lame probably annoyed me more than the CDJ incident. I know they trotted up sound but surely their riders could feel they were lame as they warmed up??? I can feel a lame horse when I'm on board and I'm a loooong way from a top level rider!!


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## milliepops (22 August 2019)

SEL said:



			The two horses eliminated for being lame probably annoyed me more than the CDJ incident. I know they trotted up sound but surely their riders could feel they were lame as they warmed up??? I can feel a lame horse when I'm on board and I'm a loooong way from a top level rider!!
		
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I do agree, but I saw a comment from one rider saying the horse had felt fine the previous movement, it is entirely possible they picked up a tweak during the test I suppose?

I think the comments around social media weren't really that woe-is-me. Some people have been truly vitriolic in their reaction to this and that is totally uncalled for IMO. It's not as though she did it deliberately.  It's clear that the welfare of the horses is a top priority at their yard.  It's fair to say, as you did, that it's disappointing to see or whatever, and she accepted that people will have their own views. But there's no need to lay into someone that realistically does have to live their life in the public eye. I would imagine she took those comments extra hard because of the huge disappointment and a sense of guilt/embarrassment that it had happened in the first place.


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## oldie48 (22 August 2019)

Caol Ila said:



			Leaving more time for horses to respond to movements?  What a great idea.  Sounds like my schooling sessions.

Me: Canter.
Horse: I will once I have a cup of tea.
Me: Now would be nice.
Horse: And read the Guardian.
Me: Okay.
Horse: That canter aid sucked.  I'm going to check Facebook.
Me: Yeah, it did.  I'm sorry.  I'll ask again.
Horse: Fine.  Here's a canter, but you didn't deserve it.
Me: I know.  I'm sorry.  You're a good horse.

Why we haven't gotten to FEI levels, I don't know.
		
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At my bootcamp there was someone who was fortunate to be loaned a horse that had competed at GP with very good scores. She's an experienced rider but in a different  discipline and it was just so interesting to see how sensitive the horse was to her aids, he gave her what she asked for, which wasn't always what she thought she was asking for. There's no doubt in my mind that he had lots of buttons and without spurs it would have been very difficult to ensure you gave the aid in the right place.


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## Bernster (22 August 2019)

Iâ€™ve only read the later parts of this thread but the social media thing bugs me. I donâ€™t see why being in the public eye means you have to put up with vitriol and online bullying

Not sure if thatâ€™s what you meant in your post SEL but thereâ€™s no justification for that type of behaviour in any form.  I recognise that it does happen but that doesnâ€™t mean itâ€™s acceptable or people should put up and shut up.  Itâ€™s wrong and should always be called out as wrong.


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## NinjaPony (22 August 2019)

Quite the drama... 

Glad to see CDJ respond like that, accepting judgement and clearly mortified about what happened. You can bet that wonâ€™t ever be happening again... I feel sure it was entirely accidental, but agree that rules are rules, and they should be tough and enforced no matter who it is. Perhaps the rowel mechanism got caught and jabbed rather than rolled. Blood is unacceptable, so Iâ€™m sure they will be looking into every possibility to make sure it never happens again. Gutting for the rest of the team and all the owners, connections etc. But rules are rules. 

Comments about banning spurs are poorly informed IMO... 

Spurs are there to refine, not to create forwardness. I use a small set of blunt spurs on my pony when â€˜properlyâ€™ schooling, so I can give more precise and clear aids. Anyone who has ever asked for travers and got canter can understand the need for clarity! If the horse isnâ€™t off your leg to a reasonable degree, then spurs shouldnâ€™t be used. 

FWIW the only time my pony has had marks on his sides, was from my boots, without any spurs... no blood but rub marks just from where the boots were sitting below the saddle, not even the heels! I ended up slathering the areas in cream before every ride... he was fully clipped and needs sheepskin on everything or it rubs.


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## SEL (22 August 2019)

Bernster said:



			Iâ€™ve only read the later parts of this thread but the social media thing bugs me. I donâ€™t see why being in the public eye means you have to put up with vitriol and online bullying

Not sure if thatâ€™s what you meant in your post SEL but thereâ€™s no justification for that type of behaviour in any form.  I recognise that it does happen but that doesnâ€™t mean itâ€™s acceptable or people should put up and shut up.  Itâ€™s wrong and should always be called out as wrong.
		
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I agree it should be called out as wrong - & the more it's called out the better IMO. Saying that I do think in today's world it comes with the job (& I'm not saying that's right). There's nasty stuff written all the time about people in the public eye and if you do something that is perceived as wrong then they will be out for blood. 

I suspect this is the first time CDJ has been involved in anything that could be perceived as "wrong" and it's opened an opportunity up to the keyboard bullies. Her statement did come across as "woe is me" when I read it and my instant thought was "man up, you're going to need to now" - it sometimes seems a very British thing to want to knock people off pedestals we've put them on.


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## tristar (23 August 2019)

thanks milliepops for your response, and the time taken, i have not time at the mo to type much, due to baby horse who is 20 mi;es away needing some work, [not possible recently due to rain and no surface over there]


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## tristar (23 August 2019)

Bernster said:



			Iâ€™ve only read the later parts of this thread but the social media thing bugs me. I donâ€™t see why being in the public eye means you have to put up with vitriol and online bullying

Not sure if thatâ€™s what you meant in your post SEL but thereâ€™s no justification for that type of behaviour in any form.  I recognise that it does happen but that doesnâ€™t mean itâ€™s acceptable or people should put up and shut up.  Itâ€™s wrong and should always be called out as wrong.
		
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not just on social media,  i have been called things on here that are pretty shocking,  for having  an opinion which differs, ,[ yet have drawn no blood!]  if we all thought the same there might not be a forum, perhaps one of the reasons its so quiet on here?

i am sure you think i am totally wrong too, but happily accept your right to disagree, in advance, but no need to express it with vitriol


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## Fellewell (23 August 2019)

I've always been very proud of Charlotte and what she's done for our national pride and the sport of dressage. But it's an ill wind that blows no good and in an odd way this may help to relieve the pressure on her, even though they're qualified for Tokyo the pressure on her must be something else. Referring to Freestyle as 'Mrs Valegro' can't help IMO.
I think the blood rule is unsafe. Lameness is one thing but even a dodgy piece of hay can affect blood clotting factors. Even with all the blood tests and nutritionists horses have to be left to themselves sometimes.
I really look forward to watching Carl ride. I once thought he should have got a medal just for piloting Barney to the arena, but then he strikes me as a 'standing up in a hammock' type of guy and definitely someone to have in your corner!
With Carl's help, Charlotte will come back from all this.


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## Jenni_ (23 August 2019)

For being so hardy in most ways, my fine ISH is a such a rubby horse. 

Spurs? Yes I've rubbed her a few times. Try not to wear them now.
Boots? Yes shes gone to pink skin on her side during coat change time from my boots / sweat. 
Reins? Yup - had a rein line up her neck at the start of the year. 
Noseband? She got a sweaty face out on a ride in July and her padded noseband rubbed a cracker under her chin. 
Bits? Rub if not eggbut / straight bar. 
Rugs ? She can't wear a neck cover at any time of year - just a nylon batman mask. Shoulders always rub at coat change time on any fit of rug. 

Girth is the only place that's been well and truly safe! 

I don't mean to rub her, if I can avoid it I will (padding, leaving areas with hair on, leaving her neck naked etc.) but when it does happen, I don't beat myself up about it. Its certainly not a severe injury she's going to lose sleep over or resent me for. She does much worse to herself in the field!


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## MotherOfChickens (23 August 2019)

tbh I am just as uneasy at all those people hero worshipping someone they've never met as someone who is criticising one. social media gives me the creeps.


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## Alibear (23 August 2019)

I'd been avoiding these threads as I don't want to jump on the bandwagon but hey its Friday and couple of thoughts are come to mind after reading all the way through.

As BD proved forward thinking enough to permit competition at any level in a snaffle, perhaps they could open this door too and remove the mandatory requirement for spurs from Advanced level upwards? I'm not sure if that would cause us an issue with being affiliated to the FEI though?

Also I've been lucky enough to come across some people who are very heavily into their horse training in general and in chats about liberty work and bridle-less/bitless work.  They've mentioned that to their knowledge no horse has been trained from foal to finished ridden work without some form of bit or bridle/halter... 

So even if it was possible to score well in a GP test sans spurs, could you get there without having used them in training at any point? 

Personally I wish Charlotte the very best, this doesn't change my opinion of her and I hope it doesn't set her back or dent her confidence. 
I support the blood rule, I know sometimes the nice guys get caught by it too , but that happens with any rule and shouldn't reflect badly on them, but it doesn't make the rule any less necessary.


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## milliepops (23 August 2019)

MotherOfChickens said:



			tbh I am just as uneasy at all those people hero worshipping someone they've never met as someone who is criticising one. social media gives me the creeps.
		
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it is weird but I would still fall down on the side of giving someone the benefit of the doubt when all evidence points to an innocent error rather than a history of horse abuse.

I have met her, I had a lesson, it was life changing and exhausting   I wouldn't say that meant I knew her any more than the next person but I def came away with a good impression after 2 hours of riding/chatting with her.


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## MotherOfChickens (23 August 2019)

milliepops said:



			it is weird but I would still fall down on the side of giving someone the benefit of the doubt when all evidence points to an innocent error rather than a history of horse abuse.

I have met her, I had a lesson, it was life changing and exhausting   I wouldn't say that meant I knew her any more than the next person but I def came away with a good impression after 2 hours of riding/chatting with her.
		
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I get that, defending her is fine, its a bit of blood-but it broke the rules and she was DQ-no problem and she could be lovely for all I know, I don't care for dressage so I have no idea. its the flowery, emotive words people use-everything is so exaggerated and most of them on FB sound like deranged stalkers.


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## milliepops (23 August 2019)

MotherOfChickens said:



			I get that, defending her is fine, its a bit of blood-but it broke the rules and she was DQ-no problem and she could be lovely for all I know, I don't care for dressage so I have no idea. its the flowery, emotive words people use-everything is so exaggerated and most of them on FB sound like deranged stalkers.
		
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yeah in fairness I have steered clear of the threads that seem to be attracting nutters from each side


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## NinjaPony (23 August 2019)

I think the quote from earlier about putting people on a pedestal is important here. It does no good for the person, or the fan. People make mistakes. Itâ€™s not a contradiction to believe that CDJ is a fantastic rider who cares for her horses, whilst also accepting that on the day an error was made in a very public way, and she had to face the consequences of it. This desire to hold people up to unreachable standards, then tear them down when they inevitably fall short, is a worrying trend. At the end of the day she is just a person. More talented, successful and driven than nearly everyone, but not immune to bad luck, or bad decisions. That doesnâ€™t make her a bad person, or a horse abuser....
The pressure on her to keep being the best and above all criticism on a world stage is enormous. This will certainly have acted as a wake up call to her, and a reminder to us all that sometimes bad things do happen at the worst possible moment, even to Olympic champions!


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## HazuraJane (23 August 2019)

tristar said:



			i hate spurs and think they should be banned, in fact made illegal
		
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Spurs give a precision to aids. Similar to the fingertip, versus the entire hand, being used to prompt the horse to a specific action if that makes sense. The "buttons" on the flank of a GP-level dressage horse are many, versus the fewer "buttons" on a lower-level horse. That's the explanation I read.


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## Gloi (23 August 2019)

milliepops said:



			yep me too, I rode a very thin skinned TB for a while and anything other than smooth leather boots would rub a hole in her esp at this time of year or late winter when the coat was starting to change.  I also found that any spurs had to be meticulously cleaned on her because just the build up of grease would be enough to create friction against her coat - one reason why rowels can be a better option on a thin skinned horse i think... am thinking ahead having acquired another weedy coated TB!
		
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Now where's that thread about the reasons people buy cobs


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## ester (23 August 2019)

Not a guarantee unfortunately! lol


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## Gloi (23 August 2019)

ester said:



			Not a guarantee unfortunately! lol
		
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Well yeah, they just bury themselves in the flab and then bounce out.


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## daffy44 (23 August 2019)

NinjaPony said:



			I think the quote from earlier about putting people on a pedestal is important here. It does no good for the person, or the fan. People make mistakes. Itâ€™s not a contradiction to believe that CDJ is a fantastic rider who cares for her horses, whilst also accepting that on the day an error was made in a very public way, and she had to face the consequences of it. This desire to hold people up to unreachable standards, then tear them down when they inevitably fall short, is a worrying trend. At the end of the day she is just a person. More talented, successful and driven than nearly everyone, but not immune to bad luck, or bad decisions. That doesnâ€™t make her a bad person, or a horse abuser....
The pressure on her to keep being the best and above all criticism on a world stage is enormous. This will certainly have acted as a wake up call to her, and a reminder to us all that sometimes bad things do happen at the worst possible moment, even to Olympic champions!
		
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Brilliantly said, couldnt agree more.


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## SEL (24 August 2019)

Gloi said:



			Now where's that thread about the reasons people buy cobs 

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My draft horse has ridiculously sensitive skin. I don't ride him any more but never found a girth that didn't rub. It's highly unlikely he'd ever be challenging the GP riders (although for entertainment value.....) but he'd be high risk for bleeding from a girth rub.

When I wrote my posts above I hadn't seen much on social media (mainly because I don't follow the dressage pages I think), but there seems to be an influx of "professionals" criticising her now and many of those comments are far removed from the point that the spurs drew blood and that is wrong.


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## Koen (2 September 2019)

Rather disappointing CDJ is now blaming the rug straps having caused the injury.

Best option is for the FEI to ban spurs in all Equestrian disciplines. You cant get a decent piaffe out of a horse by not jabbing its sides with metal, get out of the ring.

I feel Charlotte might have overstepped the mark with her use of spurs on this ride due to the pressure and previous success she rather effortlessly enjoyed with Valegro. This is not the way to repeat that success. Many horses are abused in this manner in dressage particularly during the piaffe. To blame it now on her rug straps is utterly shameful.

Ban them and no one can abuse them. A rider who saves the spurs just for the piaffe is still abusing a horse even if they don't draw blood. 

The only thing spurs refine is abuse.


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## ycbm (2 September 2019)

Koen said:



			previous success she rather effortlessly enjoyed with Valegro.
		
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## tristar (2 September 2019)

Koen said:



			Rather disappointing CDJ is now blaming the rug straps having caused the injury.

Best option is for the FEI to ban spurs in all Equestrian disciplines. You cant get a decent piaffe out of a horse by not jabbing its sides with metal, get out of the ring.

I feel Charlotte might have overstepped the mark with her use of spurs on this ride due to the pressure and previous success she rather effortlessly enjoyed with Valegro. This is not the way to repeat that success. Many horses are abused in this manner in dressage particularly during the piaffe. To blame it now on her rug straps is utterly shameful.

Ban them and no one can abuse them. A rider who saves the spurs just for the piaffe is still abusing a horse even if they don't draw blood. 

The only thing spurs refine is abuse.
		
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hopefully one day they will become optional and eventually banned

i think riders who win at the top must be under  pressure to stay there, and the horse she was riding is relatively young in dressage terms


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## Sprat (2 September 2019)

Koen said:



			previous success she rather effortlessly enjoyed with Valegro.
		
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I'm not sure that success was effortless... What an odd thing to say.


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## milliepops (2 September 2019)

Koen said:



			Rather disappointing CDJ is now blaming the rug straps having caused the injury.
		
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where have you seen this please?


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## honetpot (2 September 2019)

Sprat said:



			I'm not sure that success was effortless... What an odd thing to say.
		
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Good riders make things look easy, so people think itâ€™s easy hence the problem that everyone thinks they can do it.


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## milliepops (2 September 2019)

given that this latest poster once raised Edward Gal and the dutch system as being an example of ethical horsemanship I'm not sure they are qualified to comment tbh
the riding looks effortless, sure.. what happens behind the scenes - not so much


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## scats (2 September 2019)

milliepops said:



			where have you seen this please?
		
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I was wondering this too.


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## DressageCob (2 September 2019)

I haven't seen CDJ say anywhere that the horse's rug caused the blood on the flank. I'd find that surprising, since the rug would have been removed and the horse checked over before she mounts. I would be surprised if she put that forward as an argument. 

She was undoubtedly very fortunate to have the ride of Valegro, but I don't think anyone could legitimately believe their achievements were effortless. They looked effortless, that was part of the magic, but a lot of hard work went into getting to that point, I'm sure. I would say "blood, sweat and tears" but that seems in poor taste ðŸ˜


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## milliepops (2 September 2019)

Credit where it's due, let's not forget that Charlotte has ridden horses other than Valegro and Freestyle to huge successes.  She's not exactly a one trick pony.Having picked up the ride on Erlentanz she was into the 80% scores at GP pretty fast, she's ridden Carl's other rides at the top levels (Delicato & Uthopia spring to mind). Plus all the young horses coming up the levels... you can't exactly accuse her of riding on the successes of one extraordinary horse.


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## SEL (2 September 2019)

milliepops said:



			Credit where it's due, let's not forget that Charlotte has ridden horses other than Valegro and Freestyle to huge successes.  She's not exactly a one trick pony.Having picked up the ride on Erlentanz she was into the 80% scores at GP pretty fast, she's ridden Carl's other rides at the top levels (Delicato & Uthopia spring to mind). Plus all the young horses coming up the levels... you can't exactly accuse her of riding on the successes of one extraordinary horse.
		
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Well put! Wasn't it the canter that Charlotte was told was poor in the early stages of his career? It's hardly a case of him landing on UK shores and getting medals on day 1.


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## DressageCob (2 September 2019)

milliepops said:



			Credit where it's due, let's not forget that Charlotte has ridden horses other than Valegro and Freestyle to huge successes.  She's not exactly a one trick pony.Having picked up the ride on Erlentanz she was into the 80% scores at GP pretty fast, she's ridden Carl's other rides at the top levels (Delicato & Uthopia spring to mind). Plus all the young horses coming up the levels... you can't exactly accuse her of riding on the successes of one extraordinary horse.
		
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Exactly! And realistically, even with the best horse in the whole world, you need a decent amount of talent to be able to present the horse adequately, never mind achieve the scores they achieved.


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## HazuraJane (2 September 2019)

Is Koen a troll? Just asking.


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