# Cleveland Bay Debate in this weeks HHO



## Rollin (8 November 2012)

Anyone got their copy yet?  Takes a while for the carrier pigeon to get to me.

Comments please?


----------



## harveysmom (9 November 2012)

its amazing that the only publicity the cleveland bay can get in horse & hound is bad publicity
ROW it was a vote talk about a storm in a teacup
and the best example of a cleveland bays contribution to equine sport was from  1980 im sure it would have been better to mention the clevelands out winning now
another missed opportunity


----------



## Rollin (9 November 2012)

The problem is that not enough are competed and when they are not enough is done to publicise their success.

I recently took my 3YO to her first ever youngstock class in France for potential endurance horses.  The judges did not know what to make of this Valkyrie in a class of Arabian Wood Nymphs!!

I have just seen the result, not so good for paces - a CB with a huge trot needs a bit more space than we had in the small indoor arena - but two top marks for conformation were my Shagya filly and CB filly.

My CB was much admired by the French spectators, many came to see her and ask what her breeding was.

Amazingly when I moved to France in 2005 the CB was not recognised as a pedigree horse so excluded from most competitions in France.  By 2009 neither CBHS nor DEFRA had made any progress whatsoever with the French National Stud.

It was a case of DIY Rollin - a private letter sent to a French resident, winged its way through the Govt, and four weeks later I received a phone call from the office of the French Prime Minister.

It took 8 weeks to get the pedigree status recognised so now CB's can compete in France and there is a potential export market for UK breeders.  I have turned away potential buyers from both France and Germany.


----------



## ClevelandBayUSA (9 November 2012)

The Cleveland Bay is critically endangered.  By and large, they are fantastic all-around horses and good for low-level competition.  Here in USA I see them occupying a market niche similar to the draft crosses you see in the hunt field, in low level eventing and dressage.  The performance flag is flown by the partbreds -- Mazetto (bred in NZ, now in USA), and the UK-bred Crown Alliance and Spring Pascal, as well as and others.  

Former CB horse inspectors were among those supporting the proposed changes, seeking to restore the quality of the breed that they felt may be declining due to the severely restricted gene pool.  

The piece inaccurately characterized the debate, stating "Members of the Cleveland Bay Horse Society have seen off attempts to introduce thoroughbred blood to the stud book.But those in favour say they now fear for the breed's survival..."  

Actually, the breed has been tied to the Thoroughbred for its entire history.  Look up the sire lines of nearly any pure stallion -- they almost all trace to the Byerley Turk, one of the founding sires of the Thoroughbred.  There has been further influx of TB blood throughout the breed's history -- with the inclusion of Yorkshire Coach Horses as well as through the existing "grading up" process, which is prominent in the bloodlines of the majority of Premium stallions, including those used by opponents of changes to the grading register rules.

The piece also states that the membership voted 60-40 against certain provisions of the proposed changes.  It neglected to mention that 60 percent of the membership voted in favor of reducing the number of generations required for pure breeding prior to entrance into the full stud book, indicating majority support for some aspect of "grading up".  

Portrayal of the discussion was further skewed -- H&H quotes former president Henry Edmunds as stating, "" It was completely insane...Some individuals have tried to undermine the breed by trying to make it more commercial."

Proponents of the changes did not seek to change the breed standard.  However, widening commercial appeal for the breed is a necessary ingredient for its survival -- otherwise how do you convince people to continue breeding them?


----------



## harveysmom (9 November 2012)

magnificsporthorses said:



			The Cleveland Bay is critically endangered.  By and large, they are fantastic all-around horses and good for low-level competition.  Here in USA I see them occupying a market niche similar to the draft crosses you see in the hunt field, in low level eventing and dressage.  The performance flag is flown by the partbreds -- Mazetto (bred in NZ, now in USA), and the UK-bred Crown Alliance and Spring Pascal, as well as and others.  

Former CB horse inspectors were among those supporting the proposed changes, seeking to restore the quality of the breed that they felt may be declining due to the severely restricted gene pool.  

The piece inaccurately characterized the debate, stating "Members of the Cleveland Bay Horse Society have seen off attempts to introduce thoroughbred blood to the stud book.But those in favour say they now fear for the breed's survival..."  

Actually, the breed has been tied to the Thoroughbred for its entire history.  Look up the sire lines of nearly any pure stallion -- they almost all trace to the Byerley Turk, one of the founding sires of the Thoroughbred.  There has been further influx of TB blood throughout the breed's history -- with the inclusion of Yorkshire Coach Horses as well as through the existing "grading up" process, which is prominent in the bloodlines of the majority of Premium stallions, including those used by opponents of changes to the grading register rules.

The piece also states that the membership voted 60-40 against certain provisions of the proposed changes.  It neglected to mention that 60 percent of the membership voted in favor of reducing the number of generations required for pure breeding prior to entrance into the full stud book, indicating majority support for some aspect of "grading up".  

Portrayal of the discussion was further skewed -- H&H quotes former president Henry Edmunds as stating, "" It was completely insane...Some individuals have tried to undermine the breed by trying to make it more commercial."

Proponents of the changes did not seek to change the breed standard.  However, widening commercial appeal for the breed is a necessary ingredient for its survival -- otherwise how do you convince people to continue breeding them?
		
Click to expand...

i agree with your comments,nobody wants to change the cleveland bay, you could achieve this with selective breeding within the existing gene pool for instance i have two pure clevelands standing at over 17hh well above the breed standard with no outside blood this was achievable. all those in favour of the change are worried about is the existing gene pool being to limited which may lead to defects within the breed lets stop in before it starts
if foreign breeders of yesteryear saw the cleveland bay as a way to improve their bloodlines ie: oldenburg,hanoverian without problems why cant the cleveland
if we sit on our hands the cleveland bay will die out and we wont have to worry about introducing outside blood
also my belief is that the grading register should be scrapped there are not enough pure cleveland bays to allow us to be that fussy
on a final note if you look at old photos of cleveland bays they have already changed so all this being careful hasnt made a jot of difference
one member at the AGM mentioned some incorrect registrations in the stud book


----------



## Rollin (9 November 2012)

I have not yet seen the article so cannot comment on how it was presented, I hope it portrayed both views in a balanced way.  

I was asked for my own opinion, which is that we should retain the pure-bred Cleveland Bay but that we should have a part bred stud book, which currently does not exist.  I actually ran a poll on this forum asking if people felt we should have a part-bred stud book.

I am surprised that those who advocate change to the Grading Register, many of whom sat for years on the Council and on the Breed Committee, have been happy for part-bred Cleveland Bays to carry the colours of other stud books resulting in both a loss of income and kudos for the breed.

I actually received two letters from protagonists with their reasons for wanting change but when I wrote to one ex-stallion inspector asking what evidence was available to support the statements made I received no reply.  

As far as I am aware these stallion inspectors have never ever produced a document scoring stallions approved - even for members and that includes stallions who have been awarded Premium status.  So it is difficult for any of us to make a judgment.

Whereas the results of my Shagya stallion's grading are published on the Shagya France website for the world to see.

As for the origins of the CB, my own pure bred stallion in common with others descends from the Byerly Turk but that was in 1679!!!  The Shagya Arab is 90% Arabian and is also a rare breed.  The stud book is virtually a closed stud book and has been since the importation of the foundation stallion Shagya in 1836, although the stud itself existed prior to that date.  I hear no calls to make changes to the stud book.

What the Cleveland Bay lacks is not quality or talent but marketing.  I have long advocated that we should see CB's competing against other breeds and not just in CB classes.  We also need to celebrate success.


----------



## Doncella (9 November 2012)

Coming from the left field here. Wasn't the Yorkshire Coach Horse a recognised TBxCB? If so did it have a studbook?
Personally I don't want to see the CB lose its identity but recognition of partbreds would raise its profile.


----------



## Rollin (9 November 2012)

Doncella said:



			Coming from the left field here. Wasn't the Yorkshire Coach Horse a recognised TBxCB? If so did it have a studbook?
Personally I don't want to see the CB lose its identity but recognition of partbreds would raise its profile.
		
Click to expand...

Yes it was.  The first sport horse?  The Yorkshire Coach Horse had a separate stud book, which was closed in 1936.  Pure bred CB stallions were always allowed to be registered in the YCH stud book because it was found that too much 'blood' did not provide the quality of horse desired at that time.

We need Henry Edmund's expertise in this debate.


----------



## harveysmom (10 November 2012)

my part-bred cleveland is registered with the cleveland bay horse society her bloodlines are in her passport just as all other registered part-breds are i dont understand the need for a part-bred studbook, could you clarify why you feel this is important
also my pure clevelands comete against other breeds i dont just stick to cleveland classes i make no allowances for them being cleveland they can do the job the same as any breed
im not alone in this, all competing clevelands do other classes, they do quite well 
as a matter of fact my clevelands do better away from cleveland classes
changing the subject,we have to hope the cleveland bay doesnt go the same way as the yorkshire coach horse


----------



## Rollin (10 November 2012)

Because members and breeders have no access to the 'register' so although your passport may have your horse's breeding on it - it is your passport.  I cannot check breeding of our part-breds but I do have a copy of the main stud book, which I use a great deal.

My part-bred filly is registered with the AES.


----------



## JanetGeorge (10 November 2012)

It would appear to me that the ONLY answer to the problem of the CB's very limited numbers and bloodlines IS a Grade-up register similar to that we have with the Irish Draught.  To be a Grade-up mare, an ID x mare must have 3 Class 1/2 graded ID grand-parents - and the 4th grand-parent must be TB or Connemara.  (The Connemara would not be included with the Cleveland Bay obviously.)  The Grade-up mares are inspected and vetted - and their progeny - by a graded pure-bred stallion - are then eligible to be graded as 'pure'!  Obviously introducing TB blood CAN result in a deviation from type, so inspection is needed!

To solve the problem of pure-bred mares (and stallions) not being QUITE good enough in the eyes of the Inspectors, they can be graded Class 2 - as long as they pass vetting.  Their progeny are eligible Class 1 on inspection.  This stops bloodlines being lost - but also ensures that horses with genetic vet. faults do not enter the breeding herd.

If a Grade-up register was introduced, far thinking breeders could select strictly 'suitable' TB mares to be used.  (Presumably all bay - and of the right amount of type, substance and temperament!)  Colts should be gelded and will add to the performance horses out there flying the CB flag.


----------



## ClevelandBayUSA (10 November 2012)

Janet -- what you say is very sensible.

There is a grading register for mares and has always been one.  Two of the proposals discussed would have restored the grading register to how it used to be -- first, requiring a minimum of 93.75% pure blood (rather than the current 96.8%); and second, permitting colts to be put forward for both a vetting and breed inspection in order to allow their offspring to continue to progress through the grading register toward eventually producing a generation with sufficient pure blood to be entered in the stud book.  Breed inspections were an important component along the way.  The third proposal was to allow the Council to "fast track" exceptional horses, if it chose to do so.

Geneticist Phil Sponenberg (DVM, PhD), advisor to the American Livestock Breeds Conservancy (NA equivalent to RBST) advocates the selective use of both males and females in grading up schemes.  That way the pure genes from both the x and y chromosomes may be present in the horse that is ultimately added to the purebred stud book.

Proponents were interested in using TBs.  There was also some interest expressed in the potential for recovering "lost" genes by using some of the breeds where CBs had been used as improvers in the past -- Holstein, Oldenburg, etc.  The F-line Holsteiners, and horses such as Nimmerdor carry a substantial concentration of CB blood through Farn and other foundation warmbloods, who carry CBs and Yorkshire Coach Horses in their backgrounds.  
Mr. Edmunds advocated that if grading up were to be done, it should be done using horses from the Kabardin breed, because he felt they shared a genetic background with the Cleveland Bay.  This last sentiment was not shared by most advocates of the proposal as these other rare horses did not appear to add quality to the mix.

There is a difference between the ID and the CB though.  Many Registered Irish Draught (not sporthorse) stallions carry a substantial amount of TB blood already.  Clover Hill is sired by a TB; King of Diamonds is at least 25% TB; and Sea Crest is 1/8 TB with an additional 7/16 of his pedigree labelled as "unknown."  You will not find TB blood up this close in CB stallions (though most Premium CB stallions do have a measure of TB blood through grading register ancestors) -- and more importantly, the grading register proposals would not have changed this fact.

Seventy-five percent approval by society members would have been required for the changes to pass and clearly they did not.  Nonetheless, it is hoped that those that run the society will take note that some of the changes did garner support by a majority of the members.  This breed is critically endangered.  It needs all the friends it can get.  Hopefully the organizations will act in that spirit and seek to find common ground and implement some of the changes that the majority clearly sought.

As far as purebreds competing in the show disciplines with other breeds, particularly sporthorses -- unfortunately I would say that it is the exceptional purebred that can compete at this time.  Partbreds -- absolutely, even at the highest levels.  However, without quality purebreds, there will ultimately be no partbreds.


----------



## JanetGeorge (10 November 2012)

magnificsporthorses said:



			There is a difference between the ID and the CB though.  Many Registered Irish Draught (not sporthorse) stallions carry a substantial amount of TB blood already.  Clover Hill is sired by a TB; King of Diamonds is at least 25% TB; and Sea Crest is 1/8 TB with an additional 7/16 of his pedigree labelled as "unknown."  You will not find TB blood up this close in CB stallions (though most Premium CB stallions do have a measure of TB blood through grading register ancestors) -- and more importantly, the grading register proposals would not have changed this fact.
		
Click to expand...

You're quite right - but the LACK of TB blood high up in Cleveland Bay pedigrees would be a distinct advantage.  You have to be very careful with ID mares who have TB high up - and NOT put them to a stallion with TB in the first 3 generations - because TB finds TB and you end up with 'pure' bred IDs that look more like a 2nd cross ID SH - and hey won't grade!

To my mind, there's not much choice OTHER than a sensible grading-up policy because - with the very limited numbers - the pure-bred WILL decline in quality (and no-one will want them - which is part of the problem now - not enough demand to support the breeders!)


----------



## Rollin (10 November 2012)

JanetGeorge said:



			It would appear to me that the ONLY answer to the problem of the CB's very limited numbers and bloodlines IS a Grade-up register similar to that we have with the Irish Draught.  To be a Grade-up mare, an ID x mare must have 3 Class 1/2 graded ID grand-parents - and the 4th grand-parent must be TB or Connemara.  (The Connemara would not be included with the Cleveland Bay obviously.)  The Grade-up mares are inspected and vetted - and their progeny - by a graded pure-bred stallion - are then eligible to be graded as 'pure'!  Obviously introducing TB blood CAN result in a deviation from type, so inspection is needed!

To solve the problem of pure-bred mares (and stallions) not being QUITE good enough in the eyes of the Inspectors, they can be graded Class 2 - as long as they pass vetting.  Their progeny are eligible Class 1 on inspection.  This stops bloodlines being lost - but also ensures that horses with genetic vet. faults do not enter the breeding herd.

If a Grade-up register was introduced, far thinking breeders could select strictly 'suitable' TB mares to be used.  (Presumably all bay - and of the right amount of type, substance and temperament!)  Colts should be gelded and will add to the performance horses out there flying the CB flag.
		
Click to expand...

Janet the existing GR has been little used.  I will ask how many GR mares we have.

In the ID stud book, when a mare or stallion is inspected are the results of that inspection published so that prospective breeders know the Inspectors's opinions of that particular horse?


----------



## Rollin (10 November 2012)

Sorry Janet,  I had to leave my computer.

Within your breed society do you have a selected mating scheme?  We have one called SPARKS. it was developed by Dr. Andy Dell, who was given an award by the RBST for his work.

Each year I can search which stallions will be most suitable for my mares in order to avoid in-breeding.  I now have three mares who are a good genetic match for my stallion and for his daughter I have already purchased frozen semen which is currently held in the UK.

Dr. Dell's more recent research for his PhD, for which we contributed samples for DNA, shows the genetic bottle neck within the CB occurred over a 100 years ago.

The RBST are not in favour of the GR and have made other suggestions to the society to help to widen the gene pool.

During his research Dr. Dell discovered the close genetic relationship with the Kabardin and lent weight to Henry Edmund's research into the origin of the Cleveland Bay which dates back to the Roman occupation of Britain.


----------



## ThePony (10 November 2012)

Will dive out this eve and get a copy. I hope it isn't just a publication of a CBHS bun fight though!

I utterly utterly adore the CB, and worry that there is a very real chance of quality being lost and the numbers declining ever further. 

The grading up sounds a good idea, particularly if very close attention is paid to adding blood back in from lines with a large amount of influence from the CB. Breeding back in warmblood lines sounds fascinating, are any breeders currently breeding in this way?

I worry that inspections are not openly graded with the results for all to see. Surely this has no benefit for potential purchasers, riders and breeders, and because of that it must be a lack for the breed as a whole.  In order for the breed to be kept typical (even more important with the import of 'new' blood) then surely inspections are incredibly important. I must admit a dislike for some types of CB currently being bred, I would rather not have a 17hh + mare myself and prefer the smaller and more compact chapman type. Inspections would allow all interested in the breed to clearly see what breeds what and so select appropriate horses and lines for their needs.

I was unaware that pd mares could breed back up to eventually produce offspring that could be registered as 'pure'. How many generations would it take for a CBxTb mare to breed a pure offspring?

I feel relieved that the CB has such knowledgeable friends such as Henry Edmunds and you Rollin, each CB thread I read I learn more about this truly wonderful breed.


----------



## Rollin (10 November 2012)

Dear Pony,

I too love Chapman types, my first three mares were 15.hh/15.3hh!!!  We have just purchased another filly who will make about 16hh.

I am of an age when I don't like to be too far from the ground but I appreciate that for those who like to hunt or event a strapping 17hh CB is just the job.

As far as crossing with TB or warmblood that option is open to any breeder.  We breed Shagya and CB pure and cross the two.


----------



## harveysmom (10 November 2012)

JanetGeorge said:



			It would appear to me that the ONLY answer to the problem of the CB's very limited numbers and bloodlines IS a Grade-up register similar to that we have with the Irish Draught.  To be a Grade-up mare, an ID x mare must have 3 Class 1/2 graded ID grand-parents - and the 4th grand-parent must be TB or Connemara.  (The Connemara would not be included with the Cleveland Bay obviously.)  The Grade-up mares are inspected and vetted - and their progeny - by a graded pure-bred stallion - are then eligible to be graded as 'pure'!  Obviously introducing TB blood CAN result in a deviation from type, so inspection is needed!

To solve the problem of pure-bred mares (and stallions) not being QUITE good enough in the eyes of the Inspectors, they can be graded Class 2 - as long as they pass vetting.  Their progeny are eligible Class 1 on inspection.  This stops bloodlines being lost - but also ensures that horses with genetic vet. faults do not enter the breeding herd.

If a Grade-up register was introduced, far thinking breeders could select strictly 'suitable' TB mares to be used.  (Presumably all bay - and of the right amount of type, substance and temperament!)  Colts should be gelded and will add to the performance horses out there flying the CB flag.
		
Click to expand...

hi, thanks for your input on this, cleveland bays have a grading register. a graded mare as i understand it wont be eligable for grading up unless she breeds a filly foal, colts dont count and just the same as with your grading register they would have to be inspected and vetted to ensure they would not adversely effect the breed.
the vote that members took was on lowering the percentage of what constituted pure bred blood you can see why people feel this may dilute the breed,however if numbers continue to fall we wont have a cleveland bay at all
so many breeders are giving up and gelding stallions as they can only seem to sell the part-breds
i have personally no problem with colts from the grading register being gelded so they have no influence on the breed other than to advertise the breed,they are not even allowed to compete in pure show classes even if they have the correct percentage of pure blood and are registerd as pure because their dam is still on the grading register[perhaps some competitors are scared of the competion] unfortunatly for the shortsightedness of some, geldings are considered rubbish and worthless whether on the grading register or not, an attitude that needs to change
it needs to be recognised what a contribution the geldings do make


----------



## harveysmom (10 November 2012)

ThePony said:



			Will dive out this eve and get a copy. I hope it isn't just a publication of a CBHS bun fight though!

I utterly utterly adore the CB, and worry that there is a very real chance of quality being lost and the numbers declining ever further. 

The grading up sounds a good idea, particularly if very close attention is paid to adding blood back in from lines with a large amount of influence from the CB. Breeding back in warmblood lines sounds fascinating, are any breeders currently breeding in this way?

I worry that inspections are not openly graded with the results for all to see. Surely this has no benefit for potential purchasers, riders and breeders, and because of that it must be a lack for the breed as a whole.  In order for the breed to be kept typical (even more important with the import of 'new' blood) then surely inspections are incredibly important. I must admit a dislike for some types of CB currently being bred, I would rather not have a 17hh + mare myself and prefer the smaller and more compact chapman type. Inspections would allow all interested in the breed to clearly see what breeds what and so select appropriate horses and lines for their needs.

I was unaware that pd mares could breed back up to eventually produce offspring that could be registered as 'pure'. How many generations would it take for a CBxTb mare to breed a pure offspring?

I feel relieved that the CB has such knowledgeable friends such as Henry Edmunds and you Rollin, each CB thread I read I learn more about this truly wonderful breed.
		
Click to expand...

hi, i agree i also dont like some clevelands that are being bred at the moment they are becoming short of bone looking more like CBxTB more commercial
i mentioned in a previous tread that my pures were both 17hh and  also that this is not the breed standard and only used this example to show how you can change a breeds charactaristics without going outside the existing gene pool
both my pure clevelands are geldings so will have no part to play in how the breed develops
at this moment in time there is no benefit to gelding owners being members of the society
so my interest is not  clouded i either want to buy what is being bred or shop elsewhere
so i have bought horses that suit my needs, and am very pleased with what ive got
it still leaves me worried about the potential for future birth defects nobody wants to buy that, thats when clevelands will die out and there wont be any returning from that
im sorry if this isnt what you want to hear but how many buyers of cleveland bays would continue to support the breed if this was to happen


----------



## ClevelandBayUSA (11 November 2012)

ThePony -- you asked about crossing back to the warmblood lines that have lots of CB way back...  I am doing this with my partbred stallion -- crossed him with a Holsteiner by Franat and have a lovely yearling filly.  I have also acquired a top eventing Holsteiner stallion that I intend to cross back with the partbred CBs.  He is an old-fashioned looking Holsteiner, very phenotypically similar to a CB, and is also inbred to those lines.  And, if dreams are no object, I would love to cross the Dutch horse Emilion back to some CB mares, even a purebred, with the hopes of getting a Cleveland Bay sporthorse stallion prospect.  Emilion goes back to the foundation lines not only through his sire Wellington's sire Nimmerdor, but also through several lines on Wellington's dam Ramirha's side.  My interest is in producing great sporthorses, not necessarily in having something that would eventually end up in the grading register.

Harveysmom -- you might be interested to look up the pedigrees of your horses and see whether or not they do have grading register lines there already.

Also, I would hope that the breed inspections that are an integral part of the grading up process would protect the breed standard and make sure that the bone in the eventual stud book horses is not lost.  

It's a tricky balance -- not many people can afford to be the benefactors of the breed and breed purebreds that may not have an athletic purpose.  As harveysmom pointed out, you want to be careful that the pures don't end up looking like the CBxTB sporthorses or you lose some of the essence of the purebred.  So how do you end up marketing or preserving something, when it's the derivative product that most people want?


----------



## John Patrick (12 November 2012)

The Horse & Hound article &#8220;Row over TB blood divides Breed society&#8221; is misleading. It suggests that the disagreement within the Cleveland Bay Horse Society was about whether or not to allow thoroughbred horses to be used to grade up horses into the main Cleveland Bay Stud Book. That is not the case. The CBHS has maintained a Stud Book for pure Cleveland Bay horses since 1884. It has had a Grade Registers Scheme since the early1920s. Thoroughbred mares can be used now to grade up mares only into the main Stud Book. The Society also has a Part Bred Register for horses that have at least an eight Cleveland Bay breeding in their pedigree.

Mares can be grade up from by crossing them and their resulting female progeny with pure CBHS registered and licenced stallions over five generations to produce a filly that is eligible to be admitted into the main Stud Book.

The Cleveland Bay horse is a critically endangered native British breed of horse. The Rare Breed Survival Trust lists the Cleveland Bay in its Watchlist system as &#8220;Critical 1&#8221; which means that there are less than 300 breeding mares in the world.

The RBST has worked closely with the CBHS and breeders to increase the number of pure horses to get it out of this position. It has assisted the Society to obtain financial assistance from the Horse Racing Levy Board each year to help breeders to breed more pure horses.

The main problem that the pure Cleveland Bay is facing now is not to do with the Grade Registers Scheme but rather with the fact that there are not enough pure foals being born and registered with the Society to maintain the maximum amount of the present genetic diversity that exists in the pure breed. Some of that is to do with the present economic situation.

Dr Andrew Dell published his report in 2011 &#8220; Genetic Analysis And Breed Management Of The Endangered Cleveland Bay Horse &#8220; in which he evidenced that at least 45 pure fillies need to be registered each year with the Society to maintain the breeding population. The reality is that so far in 2012 only around twelve foals have been registered with the Society including both fillies and colts. In 2011 there were 37 foals registered on a global basis, (19 fillies and 18 colts). In 2010 there were 37 foals registered (12 fillies & 25 colts). In 2009 there were 54 foals registered (24 fillies & 30 colts). In 2008 there were 57 foals registered (26 fillies & 31 colts). In 2007 there were 65 foals registered (9 fillies & 36 colts).

With such low numbers of pure horses being bred it would not be wise to flood such a small pure genetic base with too much outside genetics if you want to retain the Cleveland Bay as a distinct native British breed of horse.

The Society held a breed conference in September 2012 at which Dr Andrew Dell, Dr Ian Gill, the former senior scientific adviser to the RBST and a fellow of Liverpool University and Mr. Colin Green, a breeder and former CBHS Council member who has championed the case for introducing the grade register proposals spoke. Dr Andrew Dell and Dr Ian Gill strongly advised the Society not to introduce the proposed grade register scheme changes and outlined an alternative pathway based upon using it&#8217;s existing SPARKS scheme combined with using the present grade register scheme to maintain the maximum amount of the existing genetic diversity within the population and to increase it&#8217;s effective population size over a number of generations.

The RBST advised the Society that it didn&#8217;t support the need for the grade register change proposals because their research showed that other actions were available to prevent and minimize the rate of loss of genetic diversity in the breed in order to maintain the purity and integrity of it as a distinct native horse. That advice reflected their current breed acceptance guidelines that state: &#8220; From 31December 2004, the Trust does not recognize any additions to an upgrading scheme. If a Breed Society starts or continues an upgrading register after this date, associated animals and their descendents will not be included in breed census totals and will not be eligible for support unless previously agreed by the Trust.&#8221;

They stated that: &#8220;RBST feel it necessary to highlight, that if the Cleveland Bay Society approve these grading-up plans, RBST will need to uphold the above, and will not be able to include animals graded up pr their descendents for the RBST Watchlist census (which is used by the HBLB to inform their grants programme), and any support from RBST (financial or otherwise) will only able to be given for the pure-bred Cleveland Bay population.&#8221;

At the October 2012 AGM members overwhelmingly voted to reject all three of the resolutions tabled to alter the existing grade register scheme, including the second one concerning reducing the number of generations down from five to four generations to grade up horses into the main Stud Book. 

The three resolutions would have allowed any sports horse from any breed listed by the World Breeding Federation of Sports Horses with the exception of coloured breeds to be used to grade up from.The present proven system of allowing mares only to be used to grade up from would have been replaced with one that would allow both mares and stallions of outside breeds to be used.  Part bred mares could have been put to part bred stallions, part bred stallions could be put to pure mares, pure stallions could be put to part bred mares etc to arrive at the % of Cleveland Bay genetics in a foal to place it on a point on the grade register or to admit it into the main Stud Book. Members were concerned that outside stallions could have a much quicker and potentially damaging impact on the existing pure population with the infusion of too much sports horse types genes. Horses could be fast tracked up into the main Stud Book with as little as two crosses of Cleveland Bay breeding or only 75% Cleveland Bay breeding behind them.All of these things taken together in a small breeding population would have radically changed the breed and it would not have been easy to maintain the existing Breed Standard.The Society already finds it difficult to prevent chestnut horses from cropping up or ones with more white on them than is permitted in the Breed Standard.It would be even more difficult to maintain the existing Breed Standard with even more outside genes being introduced into a small gene pool all at once.

This issue has been on the Society AGM in 2010, 2011 & in 2012. It has been debated to death and has needlessly distracted the Society and breeders away from focusing their collective attention on the main challenge facing the pure breed which is the need to register more genuinely bred pure Cleveland Bays to maintain it is a distinct native British breed of horse.

I don&#8217;t accept the claims that there is no demand or market for Cleveland Bays.There is a demand for both pure and part bred Cleveland Bay horses. The problem is that the horse has not been effectively marketed by some of the people who should be championing them and not continually undermining their reputation as is happening again with this senseless discussion about changing the breed into just another sports horse type. Cleveland Bays are very well suited to the general leisure and pleasure riding community&#8217;s needs. Not everyone can sit a top class sports horse however much they might aspire to do so. I have witnessed far too many amateur and inexperienced horse riders rushing out to buy fashionable sports horse types that they lack the competence to handle only to see them sell them on soon afterwards at a lower price describing the horse as a problem one because of their inability to ride it. 

Cleveland Bays have been used to breed top class competition horse and can still do so now, preferably by using a pure Cleveland Bay stallion on a mare of another breed rather than by putting pure mares to outside breed stallions given the desperately low numbers of pure Cleveland Bay horses on the ground at present.

Recently part bred horses such as Spring Pascal in dressage and Baydale Venus, a Hoys Hack of the Year winner have achieved success but they are not generally promoted to the wider equine community as being part bred Cleveland Bay horses because some owners feel that judges might place them lower down the line in competitions because of the negative press that the breed has in some quarters.

Given that there are so few Cleveland Bays around and that even fewer of them are out being competed it is remarkable that so many of them do achieve the success that they do against other breeds of horses. It should be shouted from the hilltops so that the unfair reputation that the breed has in some people&#8217;s minds is corrected rather than people within the breed continuing to run them down with unsubstantiated claims that they have lost quality etc.

Cleveland Bays have been sought out as improvers for other breeds in the past and could occupy that position again in the future if they are retained as a pure breed. Fashions change and what is popular today will probably not be tomorrow.

Both the British and Japanese royal families have used Cleveland Bays for many years as carriage driving horses at important state occasion. If they are good enough for them then I am sure that they are more than good enough for the rest of us.

I would encourage everyone to support this valuable British breed of horse. You don&#8217;t need to own one to support them. You can support them by making a financial donation to the CBHS via the Paypal link on its website www.clevelandbay.com

It is time to stop this needless debate about the grade register which has after all been decided by the CBHS membership at it&#8217;s last AGM where all members had the opportunity to vote on the issue one way or another. It is time now to get on with the serious business of preserving and promoting this valuable British breed of horse before it is too late to do so.


----------



## Rollin (12 November 2012)

Dear John Patrick,

Thank you for your excellent contribution to this debate.  I was not able to attend the Breed Conference but am delighted at the summary you have presented.

We are in total agreement that more effort needs to be put into marketing the breed rather than demeaning it.  We are the only breeders of pure bred CB's in the whole of Continental Euruope.  A huge potential market is a desert for the breed.

Magnificsporthorses claims the Cleveland Bay is only suited to low level competition.  I don't know at what point in USA competitions, horses are distinguished at high/low level competitors?  Does she mean they do not compete in International Competitions?  Certainly there are PLENTY of 50% CB's who have done.

The majority of riders who contribute to this forum and throughout the rest of Europe, do not aspire to win Badminton, Olympic Gold medals or ride a Grand Prix Dressage horse.

The two fastest growing sports in Europe are Endurance (two of our tiny population of pure bred mares have competed to 100kms in the UK in times as good as Arabians) and Le Trec.  Western riding is growing in popularity.

Most of us enjoy competing in local shows and at riding club level.

The Cleveland Bay is ideally suited to the biggest market for sane sensible and honest riding horses.  It is a great shame that in this huge recreational market we are failing
to breed 45 foals a year.

Buy one now and avoid disappointment!!


----------



## Pembridge (12 November 2012)

Doncella said:



			Coming from the left field here. Wasn't the Yorkshire Coach Horse a recognised TBxCB? If so did it have a studbook?
Personally I don't want to see the CB lose its identity but recognition of partbreds would raise its profile.
		
Click to expand...

The Yorkshire horse stud book was merged with the CB stud book,thus bringing non CB blood on board,a fact that apperas to be overlooked by the prists!


----------



## Rollin (12 November 2012)

Pembridge said:



			The Yorkshire horse stud book was merged with the CB stud book,thus bringing non CB blood on board,a fact that apperas to be overlooked by the prists!
		
Click to expand...

Out of interest, do you seek the YCH lines in your own breeding programme then?


----------



## weebarney (12 November 2012)

Rollin said:



			The Cleveland Bay is ideally suited to the biggest market for sane sensible and honest riding horses.  It is a great shame that in this huge recreational market we are failing
to breed 45 foals a year.

Buy one now and avoid disappointment!!
		
Click to expand...

I want a sane sensible and honest riding horse! where can i get one?


----------



## Pembridge (12 November 2012)

Rollin said:



			Out of interest, do you seek the YCH lines in your own breeding programme then?
		
Click to expand...

No I do not 'actively seek it' I set out to selectively breed active athletic CB's true to breed type.If you look back over my breeding it just so happens that YCH infusions are historically present in the bloodlines. This as you have raised it reinforces the importance that the TB has had on the pure CB.
It would seem that the enlightened approach to breeding the YCH was welcomed by the CBHS in 1936. It has been replaced by the introverted stance we have to deal with now.
With this precious breed on the verge of extinction I think a little vision is urgently required not the dogma that we have.


----------



## Pembridge (12 November 2012)

Oh dear 
I did not think that you suffered from naivety and with your intellect you must have been wondering why I had not entered the debate, being one of the most successful breeders of pure's and partbreds to International level. Bring it on! I enjoy constructive considered views, I just don't rise to the bait when facing bigotry


----------



## Zuzan (12 November 2012)

Pembridge said:



			..........
With this precious breed on the verge of extinction I think a little vision is urgently required not the dogma that we have.
		
Click to expand...

How true...  

My big bug bear with the whole debate is lack of hard evidence by either side.. 

OK so someone has found a genetic link to the Kabardin..  I would love to see the study that identified the link?  How close is it this link compared to that between the TB and the CB?   Are there TBs which have a stronger Turk heritage than Arab?  Which I would assume would be closer to the CB genetically .. at a guess..  (NB Turks weren't a breed but a breeding programme set up by the Ottoman Empire and there are far more Turks than the Byerley embedded in both TB and CB.)

Is the Kabardin genetic similarity due to the Turk influence on both the Kabardin and the CB (as well as the TB) or is it that they were one and the same breed that the Romans imported to the UK?  or even both.. it all is a bit academic as far as I can see..  

and someone else has said that Kabardins lack quality.. WHAT quality are we talking about??  on what evidence??? Has any one in the CBHS gone to the Caucasus to see Kabardins?  

What exactly is this "quality" that people keep banging on about?    I think we need to be more specific than just saying Quality..  is it action.. ? hardiness? temperament? 

The main problem I see is that the Irish and the Continentals have been FAR FAR better at marketing what are often quite 2nd rate horses to the UK market and unfortunately there is a general belief that if you want performance you have to either have a "WB" (even if bred in the UK but using imported WB pedigrees) 

The CBHS has done little very ineffectively as far as I can see to market the CB and CB part bred as performance horses in any discipline.   

Fashionable WB and ISH stallions have performance credentials that most CB stallions don't have .. as in proven competition stock (outside of CB showing classes) on the ground or their own records in any one discipline.   This is what the high end of the market looks for.

There is a real need for the CBHS / breeders / enthusiasts to culturally shift away from traditional showing which it seems to me many breeders seem to be more stuck on..  every CB mag goes on and on about CB showing classes at shows .. which to me seem utterly out of sync with the rest of the equine world..  CB classes don't prove anything to the uninitiated..   by all means go on showing but don't expect these classes to be an effective marketing tool.

Oh and this royal carriage horse connection.. doesn't really wash ..  unless of course you are carriage driver.. which few of us are.. so that doesn't work as a marketing tool either..  especially when the greys take pride of place and the house hold cavalry look so bloomin glam .. it really doesn't show the CB off to it's best advantage on tv..  

Generally the traditional formats / methods are really no longer that relevant as far as I can see .. they have been overtaken by the modern "disciplines" of BS BD and BE ..  Endurance and TREC should not be ignored either..  and their performance records.

It is worth thinking about the Lippi bred as a carriage horse but it is famous as the mount of the SRS


----------



## John Patrick (13 November 2012)

I agree with the comment made by Janet George above about the use of thoroughbred horses when she said in response to an earlier statement made by magnificsportshorses concerning some notable Irish Draft horses having thoroughbred breeding in their pedigrees  quite right - but the LACK of TB blood high up in Cleveland Bay pedigrees would be a distinct advantage. You have to be very careful with ID mares who have TB high up - TB finds TB and you end up with 'pure' bred IDs that look more like a 2nd cross ID SH - and they won't grade!

That is exactly the situation that some Yorkshire Coach Horse breeders found themselves in that used thoroughbred horses more frequently than other breeders did years ago as is evidenced by the comments in both Yorkshire Coach Horse Society Stud Books and in Cleveland Bay Horse Society Stud Books where it is reported by leading authorities on the Cleveland Bay and Yorkshire breeds that Yorkshire Coach horses bred in that way tended to run to weed unless they were crossed back to Cleveland Bay stallions with substance and bone. 

That is precisely why the CBHS uses mares only crossed to registered and licenced pure Cleveland Bay stallions over five generations of such crosses before the resulting filly is eligible to be inspected and vetted to go into the main Cleveland Bay Stud Book.

I note with some interest the comment made above by Pembridge  The Yorkshire horse stud book was merged with the CB stud book, thus bringing non CB blood on board, a fact that appears to be overlooked by the purists!

In 1937 after years of acrimony, the Cleveland Bay Horse Society and the Yorkshire Coach Horse Society amalgamated. At that time the Yorkshire Coach Horse Society had very few members in it and was in danger of ceasing to exist at all. It had few live horses entered into its Stud Book. Many of the horses registered in the Yorkshire Coach Horse Stud Book had pedigrees that were predominately made up of animals that were of pure Cleveland Bay breeding because mare owners routinely covered them with pure Cleveland Bay stallions to maintain their type. Some of the horses registered in the Yorkshire Coach Horse Stud book were in fact pure Cleveland Bay horses by breeding that had been registered with the Yorkshire Coach Horse Society after their owners left the Cleveland Bay Horse Society to join the Yorkshire Coach Horse Society taking their pure Cleveland Bay horses with them.

The Cleveland Bay Horse Society Stud Book, Volume XV111 was published in 1938. It incorporated the last volume, Volume 1X, of the Yorkshire Coach Horse Stud Book. This was the end of the Yorkshire Coach Horse as a distinct breed, something that we dont want to see happening to the pure Cleveland Bay horse.

The reality was that only a handful of Yorkshire Coach horses came across to the CBHS when the Yorkshire Coach Horse Society and it amalgamated with each other. Few of these Yorkshire Coach horses produced offspring so they havent left descendents in todays pure Cleveland Bay population. The claims that a lot of outside blood was introduced into the pure Cleveland Bay horse population when the two Societies amalgamated is not borne out by an analysis of the facts.

The outside genes that are in the present day pure Cleveland Bay breed have largely got into it via the descendents of Lucifer and mares that have been used to grade up horses into the main Stud Book under the approved Grade Registers Scheme provisions. I consider myself to be a Cleveland Bay purist and as such accept that the existing approved Grade Register Scheme with its built in safeguards aimed at maintaining the existing Breed Standard is an important part of preserving the pure Cleveland Bay horse.  I would encourage all those who say that they want to grade up horses to do so under the terms and conditions of the existing scheme, which is approved by the Society and by the Rare Breed Survival Trust. More importantly I would urge people to breed and register with the CBHS more pure foals, to retain more colts for use and to compete their horses so that peope can see what they can achieve.


----------



## Pembridge (13 November 2012)

Zuzan said:



			How true...  

My big bug bear with the whole debate is lack of hard evidence by either side.. 

OK so someone has found a genetic link to the Kabardin..  I would love to see the study that identified the link?  How close is it this link compared to that between the TB and the CB?   Are there TBs which have a stronger Turk heritage than Arab?  Which I would assume would be closer to the CB genetically .. at a guess..  (NB Turks weren't a breed but a breeding programme set up by the Ottoman Empire and there are far more Turks than the Byerley embedded in both TB and CB.)

Is the Kabardin genetic similarity due to the Turk influence on both the Kabardin and the CB (as well as the TB) or is it that they were one and the same breed that the Romans imported to the UK?  or even both.. it all is a bit academic as far as I can see..  

and someone else has said that Kabardins lack quality.. WHAT quality are we talking about??  on what evidence??? Has any one in the CBHS gone to the Caucasus to see Kabardins?  

What exactly is this "quality" that people keep banging on about?    I think we need to be more specific than just saying Quality..  is it action.. ? hardiness? temperament? 

The main problem I see is that the Irish and the Continentals have been FAR FAR better at marketing what are often quite 2nd rate horses to the UK market and unfortunately there is a general belief that if you want performance you have to either have a "WB" (even if bred in the UK but using imported WB pedigrees) 

The CBHS has done little very ineffectively as far as I can see to market the CB and CB part bred as performance horses in any discipline.   

Fashionable WB and ISH stallions have performance credentials that most CB stallions don't have .. as in proven competition stock (outside of CB showing classes) on the ground or their own records in any one discipline.   This is what the high end of the market looks for.

There is a real need for the CBHS / breeders / enthusiasts to culturally shift away from traditional showing which it seems to me many breeders seem to be more stuck on..  every CB mag goes on and on about CB showing classes at shows .. which to me seem utterly out of sync with the rest of the equine world..  CB classes don't prove anything to the uninitiated..   by all means go on showing but don't expect these classes to be an effective marketing tool.

Oh and this royal carriage horse connection.. doesn't really wash ..  unless of course you are carriage driver.. which few of us are.. so that doesn't work as a marketing tool either..  especially when the greys take pride of place and the house hold cavalry look so bloomin glam .. it really doesn't show the CB off to it's best advantage on tv..  

Generally the traditional formats / methods are really no longer that relevant as far as I can see .. they have been overtaken by the modern "disciplines" of BS BD and BE ..  Endurance and TREC should not be ignored either..  and their performance records.

It is worth thinking about the Lippi bred as a carriage horse but it is famous as the mount of the SRS
		
Click to expand...

In answer to your comment re the Lippi's a carriage horses It depends whether you are driving for a hobby /competition / or 'commercially'
Commercially you have to provide what the client envisiges and so often it  is a fairytale grey for a wedding and a black for a funeral It has nothing to do with the breed pf the horses , just the perception of the hirer


----------



## Pembridge (13 November 2012)

Zuzan said:



			How true...  

My big bug bear with the whole debate is lack of hard evidence by either side.. 

OK so someone has found a genetic link to the Kabardin..  I would love to see the study that identified the link?  How close is it this link compared to that between the TB and the CB?   Are there TBs which have a stronger Turk heritage than Arab?  Which I would assume would be closer to the CB genetically .. at a guess..  (NB Turks weren't a breed but a breeding programme set up by the Ottoman Empire and there are far more Turks than the Byerley embedded in both TB and CB.)

Is the Kabardin genetic similarity due to the Turk influence on both the Kabardin and the CB (as well as the TB) or is it that they were one and the same breed that the Romans imported to the UK?  or even both.. it all is a bit academic as far as I can see..  

and someone else has said that Kabardins lack quality.. WHAT quality are we talking about??  on what evidence??? Has any one in the CBHS gone to the Caucasus to see Kabardins?  

What exactly is this "quality" that people keep banging on about?    I think we need to be more specific than just saying Quality..  is it action.. ? hardiness? temperament? 

The main problem I see is that the Irish and the Continentals have been FAR FAR better at marketing what are often quite 2nd rate horses to the UK market and unfortunately there is a general belief that if you want performance you have to either have a "WB" (even if bred in the UK but using imported WB pedigrees) 

The CBHS has done little very ineffectively as far as I can see to market the CB and CB part bred as performance horses in any discipline.   

Fashionable WB and ISH stallions have performance credentials that most CB stallions don't have .. as in proven competition stock (outside of CB showing classes) on the ground or their own records in any one discipline.   This is what the high end of the market looks for.

There is a real need for the CBHS / breeders / enthusiasts to culturally shift away from traditional showing which it seems to me many breeders seem to be more stuck on..  every CB mag goes on and on about CB showing classes at shows .. which to me seem utterly out of sync with the rest of the equine world..  CB classes don't prove anything to the uninitiated..   by all means go on showing but don't expect these classes to be an effective marketing tool.

Oh and this royal carriage horse connection.. doesn't really wash ..  unless of course you are carriage driver.. which few of us are.. so that doesn't work as a marketing tool either..  especially when the greys take pride of place and the house hold cavalry look so bloomin glam .. it really doesn't show the CB off to it's best advantage on tv..  

Generally the traditional formats / methods are really no longer that relevant as far as I can see .. they have been overtaken by the modern "disciplines" of BS BD and BE ..  Endurance and TREC should not be ignored either..  and their performance records.

It is worth thinking about the Lippi bred as a carriage horse but it is famous as the mount of the SRS
		
Click to expand...

I really do not have the time to answer point by point all issues that i have picked up in this forum. Suffice to say I would love to, because I read 'sense'. I can do nothing but agree re 'showing' re performance. i think that you can sum up the main of CB breeders as good stalwart farmers/caring conservationists.
I got into Cleveland's decades ago as I appreciated the power,mental prowess and athletic ability of the breed when bred correctly.
It did not take me long to discover that the main of breeders were non riders and so the breed was in the hands of non competitive owners. (Showing  is just something that a competition yard does with youngsters to broaden their education  until they are of riding age.)


----------



## Rollin (13 November 2012)

Zuzan,

Perhaps I can answer your questions.

Dr. Andy Dell developed our SPARKS programme (basically a selective mating programme) for which he was given an award by the RBST.

He then undertook a major DNA study of the Cleveland Bay, for which I and many other CB breeders submitted samples.  He discovered a link with the Kabardin and wrote to their breed society requesting DNA samples.  This did indeed confirm the genetic relationship.  DNA has changed our world.

Henry Edmunds, owner of the oldest CB stud in the UK Cholderton, conducted historical research, which traced the origins of the CB to the Roman occupation of Britain.  He believes that the CB descended from imported Cavalry horses who were posted at Hadrian's Wall.

Interestingly someone on this forum wrote to me and told me that there are people living near Preston in Lancashire who are genetically linked to the people's of the Black Sea.  As she said it seems reasonable to assume when they settled in Britain they brought their horses with them.

Here is a link to Dr. Dell's PhD thesis and Henry Edmund's fascinating article.

http://www.southernclevelandbayclub.co.uk/#/cleveland-world/4544115860


----------



## harveysmom (13 November 2012)

hi, just thought i would jog everyones memories didnt we hold some sort of test/competition with cleveland bay pure and part breds and irish pure and part breds involved and the result was that as far as i can remember that there wasnt really any difference it came down to the individual horses talent and had nothing to do with how they are bred
it goes to show if irish horses can compete at the top level so can cleveland bays
i think its time that we all started buying british


----------



## Rollin (13 November 2012)

harveysmom said:



			hi, just thought i would jog everyones memories didnt we hold some sort of test/competition with cleveland bay pure and part breds and irish pure and part breds involved and the result was that as far as i can remember that there wasnt really any difference it came down to the individual horses talent and had nothing to do with how they are bred
it goes to show if irish horses can compete at the top level so can cleveland bays
i think its time that we all started buying british
		
Click to expand...

Lincoln University used to run an annual competition CB's versus Irish Drafts.

The problem is that when the WW population is only 500 whereas there are 10,000 of warmbloods there will only be a small number who reach the top.  Here are a few off the top of my head.

Spring Pascall 50% CB on the UK Junior Dressage Team

Natterjack Toad Champion Show Cob 50% CB

Baydale Venus 1/8th Supreme Champion Hack at HOYS

Hawlmark Classic Twiglight, 50% CB Cuddy qualifier for HOYS last year

Stainmore Reuban pure bred CB won his first hunter breeding class as a yearling and last year (?) went on to win Best in Show against all breeds

Stoneridge Merindah Jundah, pure CB, Small Hunter Champion, Qualifed for Scottish Masters as a Small Hunter in a big class and as Riding Club Champion won the Royal Highland Society Perpetual Trophy.

Kingsleys Mary Rose third in the UK cup as an endurance horse

Ravel 1/8th CB International Dressage

Badger Boy 50% CB Junior UK Event Team

I think most of us know about Powder Monkey, Arun Tor and Posh Paws

USA Feb 2012 Baile Hill CBxTB won Florida's three day competitive trail ride and he and his rider were given special award for best horse/rider combination.  (Temps were in the 80's and his owner said she would never ride an Arab in such an event again)

2012 Olympic Games ONE part bred CB competed in the eventing team - representing Holland.

Going back a long way I was amazed to discover that at the Mexico Olympics as well as Harvey Smith's 50% CB Madison Time, 4 of the reserve team were young part-bred Cleveland Bays.


----------



## vichyb (13 November 2012)

I just have to jump into this debate as well.  I didn't attend the breed conference but was given a full break down of what occurred.  As I see it, Andy Dell, whilst providing very useful information and developing the valuable SPARKS programme, is not au fait with the breed apart from the research he conducted for his thesis and has not dismissed the grading register but merely states his evidence points to more breeding through the SPARKS programme.  Also he is not a geneticist but works or has worked for RBST and carried out his thesis on the CB.  It would've been valuable if at the breed conference an impartial geneticist could've provided an unbiased view on the pro's and cons of grading up as seen by other species.  As it stands at the moment all the arguements against GR are based purely on Andys thesis, which hardly provides an unbiased view and much of this debate is being based purely on this research without looking at wider views from renowned geneticists.  I don't wish to make light of the thesis as it is a very good piece of work and all credit to Andy Dell and the amount if work it took to produce and collate.
I also wish to point out that the Karbardin horse is not conformationally correct as it has evolved into a cow hocked animal with a fiery temperament. Not exactly what I would want when it comes to breeding. 
The situation is dire for the CB.  Not enough is being done to market the horse, too much emphasis is being placed on breeding and getting foals on the ground when there is no market for them.  It's a huge travesty for this breed as they are a beautiful horse with so much to offer.  We cannot lose the essence of the breed but we must do something to increase the gene pool and make it a viable option when someone wishes to purchase a horse.  With so many breeders retiring etc the numbers are likely to decline further within the next few years, what happens then?? What incentive is there for people with mares to breed?  Lets face it few people now own their own land, many are on livery and cannot afford to breed either financially or time wise, the decline is going to be far quicker than anyone can imagine.  I personally feel there should be a two prong strategy for the CB alongside the breeding of pures, allow the grading up process and marketing.  After all the grading register is already in existence within the society, the vote was not about whether it should happen or not but on decreasing the %, allowing colts and the improver.  If colts were allowed into the GR the society could effectively manage the use of these colts as stallions by allowing a limited license for example.  It's hardly a doomsday situation to allow these colts into the GR, it's all about management.  Again the improver is all about management and had we had a society that could provide an effective management strategy then it really wouldn't be an issue.


----------



## Welly (13 November 2012)

Firstly let me say I love the Cleveland bay, I have had the privilege to own 3 part breeds and all have been fantastic. But I would like to ask why none of the stallions are out there doing something to promote the breed, dressage, show jumping, even a bit of eventing. I have just spent the last 8 months looking for a pure or part breed that had done a little bit of riding club or similar.  At last I have found a mare but looking back at her breeding, not one of her sires has done anything and most of the mares have been used for breeding only.

If this breed is to have a future it must gain popularity and that can only be done by getting out there and doing something. It seems to me that there a lot of lovely people who breed lovely animals and do nothing with them and this will be down fall of the breed.


----------



## Pembridge (14 November 2012)

Welly said:



			Firstly let me say I love the Cleveland bay, I have had the privilege to own 3 part breeds and all have been fantastic. But I would like to ask why none of the stallions are out there doing something to promote the breed, dressage, show jumping, even a bit of eventing. I have just spent the last 8 months looking for a pure or part breed that had done a little bit of riding club or similar.  At last I have found a mare but looking back at her breeding, not one of her sires has done anything and most of the mares have been used for breeding only.

If this breed is to have a future it must gain popularity and that can only be done by getting out there and doing something. It seems to me that there a lot of lovely people who breed lovely animals and do nothing with them and this will be down fall of the breed.
		
Click to expand...

Would that this was understood by the owner breeders. I have to be fair there are CB breeders that do breed performance pures/partbreds and get them out there, but the percentage is small.the traditional breeders breed for show and sale and many of them do not even ride themselves. Until this mindset is broken and the Cbs are out there competing on a level playing field against all breeds, their position will continue to decline.There is no earthly point in competing Cb's against CB's at internal shows that merely massage the ego of the owner breeder. CB's need to out there in the mainstream showing what they can do, in the right hands.


----------



## Pembridge (14 November 2012)

Rollin said:



			Lincoln University used to run an annual competition CB's versus Irish Drafts.

The problem is that when the WW population is only 500 whereas there are 10,000 of warmbloods there will only be a small number who reach the top.  Here are a few off the top of my head.

Spring Pascall 50% CB on the UK Junior Dressage Team

Natterjack Toad Champion Show Cob 50% CB

Baydale Venus 1/8th Supreme Champion Hack at HOYS

Hawlmark Classic Twiglight, 50% CB Cuddy qualifier for HOYS last year

Stainmore Reuban pure bred CB won his first hunter breeding class as a yearling and last year (?) went on to win Best in Show against all breeds

Stoneridge Merindah Jundah, pure CB, Small Hunter Champion, Qualifed for Scottish Masters as a Small Hunter in a big class and as Riding Club Champion won the Royal Highland Society Perpetual Trophy.

Kingsleys Mary Rose third in the UK cup as an endurance horse

Ravel 1/8th CB International Dressage

Badger Boy 50% CB Junior UK Event Team

I think most of us know about Powder Monkey, Arun Tor and Posh Paws

USA Feb 2012 Baile Hill CBxTB won Florida's three day competitive trail ride and he and his rider were given special award for best horse/rider combination.  (Temps were in the 80's and his owner said she would never ride an Arab in such an event again)

2012 Olympic Games ONE part bred CB competed in the eventing team - representing Holland.

Going back a long way I was amazed to discover that at the Mexico Olympics as well as Harvey Smith's 50% CB Madison Time, 4 of the reserve team were young part-bred Cleveland Bays.
		
Click to expand...

I read with interest your post re a handful of CB's that have achieved. I find it interesting that despite the fact that we have been breeding pure and part bred performance horses for decades we seem to have slipped below your radar.
I don't know where you are gleaning your information from, but our horses and their achievements are well cataloged.We have many that have achieved FEI status and at a rough count we have easily 20+ that have achieved in the olympic disciplines. As a working member of the CBHS it beggers belief that you are not even aware what your active breeders have and are achieving in the competition world. I am sure for example that the name Pembridge Minstrel FEI rings a bell One of the most successful eventing stallons of all time 346 BE points. Or how about Pembridge Victor FEI Pembridge Rocket Pembridge Endeavour.FEI It really should not be necessary for me to be telling you . The society are failing miserably to promote those that are succeeding.
I do believe that one of our pure stallions Pembridge Justinian. that was with you for a while is now riding and competing well. Our pure stallions all compete.Nobody in the society promotes the competing horses unless you are part of the clique. There you go I have said it . 
www.pembridgestud.com


----------



## Adina (14 November 2012)

Lists of CB achievements is always going to miss someone out and the list is out of date anyway. For instance Spring Pascal is competing and getting placed at Grand Prix.
Finding a stallion that is currently competing and suits your mare is difficult. So I used Grenadier (NASTA tested and BD points) on my rare mare under the now defunct Selected Mating Scheme as he was also a good physical match. But apart from stallion searching we need lists that suit our market. Our market is not looking for Grand Prix horses. We need lists of horses currently hunting with which pack, horses on PC and Riding Club teams.
Incidentally, that mare I bred will go to Brayden this spring. He is also the result of the Selected Mating Scheme - Tsar to Karen's rare mare and is a Premium stallion.  Arcadian Apollo was a result of the scheme, does anyone know if he was gelded?  Pembridge didn't you have a mare on the scheme?


----------



## Pembridge (14 November 2012)

Yes we did have a premium mare on the scheme,Pembridge Jewell


----------



## Andy.D (14 November 2012)

I do not usually post in open forums but need to correct some factual inaccuracies in Vichy B's post in this thread.
_As I see it, Andy Dell, whilst providing very useful information and developing the valuable SPARKS programme, is not au fait with the breed apart from the research he conducted for his thesis and has not dismissed the grading register but merely states his evidence points to more breeding through the SPARKS programme. _​I have been breeding Cleveland Bay's since 1995 with my partner Jill under the prefix Endmoor. Some of our progeny can be seen actively competing today eg. the pure bred gelding Endmoor Excalibur and the part bred gelding Endmoor Firecracker. Our pure bred filly Endmoor Amazing Grace has gone on to become a premium mare in her own right and has pure progeny of her own under the Childrey prefix. I served on the Council of the CBHS from the late 1990s until 2007 including two terms on the breed committee, and to date I have contributed to all 5 breed conferences.
_Also he is not a geneticist but works or has worked for RBST and carried out his thesis on the CB. _​I have never worked for the RBST. Two anonymous Cleveland Bay breeders nominated me for the 2008 Marsh Christian Trust Award for technical support for conservation of biodiversity, which is managed by the RBST and I was delighted to be presented with that award. Lincoln University approach me to write up the work I had done with the breed and the SPARKS breed management programme. This grew into first a Masters and then a PhD thesis for which I was awarded a Doctorate in Conservation Biology. The RBST provided matched funding to help with costs associated with mitochondrial DNA testing of a representative sample of Cleveland Bay horses, which formed part of the work of my thesis. 
_It would've been valuable if at the breed conference an impartial geneticist could've provided an unbiased view on the pro's and cons of grading up as seen by other species.​_Dr Ian Gill and I both spoke at the recent CBHS conference along with Colin Green who presented the case for amending the present grading register regulations. Dr Ian Gill did not represent the RBST but spoke to give the general background to grading up and its implications, I spoke to put things in the context of the Cleveland Bay horse,
_ As it stands at the moment all the arguments against GR are based purely on Andys thesis, which hardly provides an unbiased view and much of this debate is being based purely on this research without looking at wider views from renowned geneticists._​The debate about changes to the grading register regulations began a long time before my thesis was published. In fact the body of the thesis hardly refers to the grading register. It focuses on analysis of the breed through pedigree and molecular mean (microsatellite and mitochondrial DNA analysis) and examines the effectiveness of the SPARKS breed management programme that I helped the CBHS implement in 2004 and continues today. This involves maximising diversity by controoling the rate of increase in inbreeding using mean kinships. This is exactly the same science used in the management of captive endangered wildlife populations throughout the world.
_I don't wish to make light of the thesis as it is a very good piece of work and all credit to Andy Dell and the amount if work it took to produce and collate. I also wish to point out that the Karbardin horse is not conformationally correct as it has evolved into a cow hocked animal with a fiery temperament. Not exactly what I would want when it comes to breeding. _​Since the publication of my thesis I have been asked to investigate genetic links with other breeds. This can be done by comparing banked Cleveland Bay mitochondrial DNA sequences with those from research on other breeds. Recent work at the Max Planc institute in Leipzig has produced a wealth of DNA sequences from otherwise poorly researched domestic equine breeds. This is held in the international NCBI genetic database and forms a valuable resource for comparative study. There are essentially only four mitochondrial DNA haplotypes present in the pure Cleveland Bay. These appear in other breeds too (until very recently it was thought that all domestic equines decended from only 77 founder mares). *IF* the Cleveland Bay population became so genetically compromised that grading up was the only course of action available to it, then I argued that it would be better to grade up to a breed that was both genetically and phenotypically similar to the present breed.
_The situation is dire for the CB. Not enough is being done to market the horse, too much emphasis is being placed on breeding and getting foals on the ground when there is no market for them. It's a huge travesty for this breed as they are a beautiful horse with so much to offer. We cannot lose the essence of the breed but we must do something to increase the gene pool and make it a viable option when someone wishes to purchase a horse._​The management of genetically compromised breeds is a difficult one, where unlike in the case of zoo animals, the breeding population remains in the hands of dedicated breeders and not in the sole control of a population manager. The SPARKS breed management programme has shown that when the information is made readily available to aid breeder's choice it is possible to increase Effective Population size by managing the rate of increase in inbreeding. Inbred populations can be viable. It is a case of maximizing the number of foals on the ground and using as broad a range of males and females in the breeding programme as possible. The thoroughbred horse itself is proof of this.
_I personally feel there should be a two prong strategy for the CB alongside the breeding of pures, allow the grading up process and marketing. After all the grading register is already in existence within the society, the vote was not about whether it should happen or not but on decreasing the %, allowing colts and the improver.​_Dr. Philip Sponenberg, in the USA is one of the greatest advocates of grading up programmes. He fully supports the use of grading up schemes for genetic conservation but not if they change the breed you are trying to conserve in the first place. He also argues that the success or failure of rare breeds is determined by Market Market Market. However if the existing breed does not fit the market then there is no point changing the breed as you loose what you are trying to conserved. Instead go out and generate appropriate markets. The Cleveland Bay can stand on its own four feet in the market place both as a pure bred and a part bred and as a pre-potent improver of other breeds.The greatest threats to the Cleveland Bay were the process of tarmacadamming roads and the little grey fergie tractor. Many people on this thread had noted the success of the part-bred Cleveland Bay in the various competitive equine disciplines. Yes we have been poor at showcasing the success of the breed in these field and need to work on promoting the market, but we must not go around the old loop of taking the eye of the basic fact that without the pure bred there is no long term future for the part bred.
_If colts were allowed into the GR the society could effectively manage the use of these colts as stallions by allowing a limited license for example. It's hardly a doomsday situation to allow these colts into the GR, it's all about management. Again the improver is all about management and had we had a society that could provide an effective management strategy then it really wouldn't be an issue. ​_The use of colts in any grading up scheme is one that needs considerable thought. Sponenberg has illustrated that Grading Register colts would be best used in the last stage of any grading up process so that both the mitochondrial halpotype of the pure female and the Y chromosome of the pure male get passed up in any progeny being entered in the full studbook.
I have actively promoted access to information on both sides of the grading register debate including to two articles that appeared in back editions of the RBST magazine "The Ark". However, the debate has run its democratic process and it is now time to move forward and ensure that this great breed survives and thrives because of the Society and the people that care for it and not despite them!!!!


----------



## Rollin (14 November 2012)

Pembridge said:



			I read with interest your post re a handful of CB's that have achieved. I find it interesting that despite the fact that we have been breeding pure and part bred performance horses for decades we seem to have slipped below your radar.
I don't know where you are gleaning your information from, but our horses and their achievements are well cataloged.We have many that have achieved FEI status and at a rough count we have easily 20+ that have achieved in the olympic disciplines. As a working member of the CBHS it beggers belief that you are not even aware what your active breeders have and are achieving in the competition world. I am sure for example that the name Pembridge Minstrel FEI rings a bell One of the most successful eventing stallons of all time 346 BE points. Or how about Pembridge Victor FEI Pembridge Rocket Pembridge Endeavour.FEI It really should not be necessary for me to be telling you . The society are failing miserably to promote those that are succeeding.
I do believe that one of our pure stallions Pembridge Justinian. that was with you for a while is now riding and competing well. Our pure stallions all compete.Nobody in the society promotes the competing horses unless you are part of the clique. There you go I have said it . 
www.pembridgestud.com

Click to expand...

Dear Pembridge - just a list off the top of my head.  I would have expected you to add to it.


----------



## Rollin (14 November 2012)

Dear Andy,

Delighted that you have responded to the debate.


----------



## ClevelandBayUSA (15 November 2012)

I think it's important that CB breeders, owners and fans not disparage the value of classes for Cleveland Bays alone.  There is no other venue for evaluating CBs, side-by-side, to decide which is the best example of the breed in front of a given judge on a given day.  Breed inspections for stallions have largely been shelved, leaving only these classes as a means for an outsider to comparatively assess which Cleveland Bays best embody the ideals of the breed.

I am a total fan of pure and part CBs competing in open classes as well, but believe we must absolutely place significant value on our own shows and classes.


----------



## John Patrick (15 November 2012)

I have not seen or heard about any evidence of CB breeders, owners and fans being disparaging about the value of classes for Cleveland Bays alone as claimed by magnificsporthorses. Where have you seen or heard about it happening?

The Cleveland Bay Horse Society supports a full annual calendar of breed shows across the UK each year where Cleveland bay horses compete against each other and are ranked by judges against the CB Breed Standards.

The Showing Committee liaises with national / county show organisers to ensure that Cleveland Bay classes at them are maintained and where possible and practical to obtain new events. Regrettably the numbers of horses entered at some shows has declined which is not surprising given the present economic climate and because fewer pure and part bred horses are being bred.

The Society holds its National Cleveland Bay Championship Breed Show at the Equifest.

The Society was approached in 2012 by the Rare Breed Survival Trust to become involved in a new show, the Rare Breeds Heritage Event. It supported it. Ms Lynette Sumner gave a ridden demonstration on her pure Cleveland Bay stallion Southbrook Spellbound that she jointly owns with Mr. Jimmy Warren. I understand that the Society plans to support the event again next September. 

The pure and part bred Cleveland Bay classes at the Great Yorkshire Show are both cuddy qualifiers so they are able to compete in the breed classes and then in open competition against all of the other class winners which helps to promote the breed to a wider audience.

The King George V Cup competition was held at Lincoln University this year but there were only four premium stallions forward. Not all stallion owners put their horses forward to be inspected for a premium stallion award. The Society has been advised by the Rare Breed Survival Trust and by geneticists such as Dr Ian Gill to try to widen out the number of pure stallions that are bred from each year so as to maintain the maximum amount of the existing genetic diversity available within the pure population. As a result instead of only paying premium status stallion owners a payment when their horse sires a pure foals that is registered in its stud book it has sought funding from the Horse Racing Levy Board to pay all stallion owners whose stallions (including premium status stallions) sire a pure foal that is registered with it in its stud book a stallion premium payment. It is hoped that will encourage more people to use a wider range of stallions on their mares than happens now and for some people to consider standing a stallion themselves.  As a consequence of all of this the CBHS has also decided to open up the King George V Cup competition to all pure Cleveland Bay horses just as it was previously when for example the yearling colt, Principal Boy and the mare Scragglethorpe Attraction won it. Mares and stallions will still be able to be put forward by their owners to be inspected against the Breed standard to see if they merit being given a premium status award so breeders will still have the option of using such horses if they wish to.

The Society decided at a recent Council Meeting to establish a Futurity Scheme where horses will again be assessed and benchmarked against  how closely they conform to the the existing Cleveland Bay Breed Standards.

It is not correct to assert as magnificsporthorses has done that &#8221; Breed inspections for stallions have largely been shelved, leaving only these classes as a means for an outsider to comparatively assess which Cleveland Bays best embody the ideals of the breed.&#8221;

Like magnificsporthorses &#8220; I am a total fan of pure and part CBs competing in open classes as well, but believe we must absolutely place significant value on our own shows and classes&#8221;. I believe that the Society, Cleveland Bay breeders and owners do place significant value on Cleveland Bay breed shows but also think that like other breeds the Cleveland Bay, and in particular the part bred Cleveland Bay horse has to be seen out competing in open competition against all comers if it is to have a meaningful presence in the wider equine community.


----------



## John Patrick (15 November 2012)

In addition to the above stallions are licenced for breeding purposes by the Society. Part bred stallions have to be independently vetted and approved by the CBHS Council before being issued with a part bred breeding licence. Pure stallions can be awarded either a Basic Stallion Licence, a Quality Assured Stallion Licence or a Premium Stallion Award. To obtain a Basic  Stallion Licence a stallion has to be independently vetted and approved by the CBHS Council. To get a Quality Assured Licence a stallion also has to have foals on the ground and to pass a Breed Standard inspection carried out by the Society's Horse Assessors. Quality Assured Stallion owners can put their horse forward to be inspected each year against the Breed Standard and the top ten of them are given a Premium Status Award.


----------



## harveysmom (15 November 2012)

I am very glad that all these successful cleveland bays are getting a mention ,as it will hopefully stop people thinking that bay horse must be irish, as happened several times while i was at the great yorkshire show this year
We must also learn to celebrate all cleveland successes however small as they are all good advertising for the breed
to date my horses were at equifest,great yorkshire,rare breeds heritage show and the royal london, they are geldings considered scrap by CBHS and breeders alike, when will it be recognised the contribution they make to advertising the breed. i am a bit fed up of hearing that not enough people compete their clevelands [ he without sin cast the first stone] whos fault is that. More people need to get their clevelands out in-hand or ridden it doesnt matter, they arent going to get noticed in their fields, so next year get them out and give the judge something to look at  other than an empty ring 
interesting to note the cleveland bay classes held at the royal london were very well attended which means they had to qualify somewhere , which means clevelands are competing and winning at the lower levels [with amatuer riders] against other breeds
that does rather point to the fact that cleveland bays have still got what it takes


----------



## ClevelandBayUSA (16 November 2012)

"There will be no more premium stallions at the moment" because "the scheme is not working" is the information I received from the current CBHS Breed Committee chair.  I also understand that the long-standing panel of horse inspectors was dismissed by the Council en bloc, to be replaced by a system of rotating Council members functioning as "horse assessors" whose qualifications and job description has not been shared with the membership as of yet.  I am not certain about the fate of the QA program that JohnPatrick references, and look forward to learning about the futurity program.

I am glad to hear that in the UK that the breed classes are not disparaged.  Over here in North America, the NA Cleveland Bay society has repeatedly de-valued the Cleveland Bay classes with respect to its own performance awards program, with the unfortunate end result that fewer people who participate in the Cleveland Bay classes also participate in the society's awards program, and become less involved with the organization as a whole.


----------



## Rollin (16 November 2012)

harveysmom said:



			I am very glad that all these successful cleveland bays are getting a mention ,as it will hopefully stop people thinking that bay horse must be irish, as happened several times while i was at the great yorkshire show this year
We must also learn to celebrate all cleveland successes however small as they are all good advertising for the breed
to date my horses were at equifest,great yorkshire,rare breeds heritage show and the royal london, they are geldings considered scrap by CBHS and breeders alike, when will it be recognised the contribution they make to advertising the breed. i am a bit fed up of hearing that not enough people compete their clevelands [ he without sin cast the first stone] whos fault is that. More people need to get their clevelands out in-hand or ridden it doesnt matter, they arent going to get noticed in their fields, so next year get them out and give the judge something to look at  other than an empty ring 
interesting to note the cleveland bay classes held at the royal london were very well attended which means they had to qualify somewhere , which means clevelands are competing and winning at the lower levels [with amatuer riders] against other breeds
that does rather point to the fact that cleveland bays have still got what it takes
		
Click to expand...

I for one do not regard geldings as scrap, nor do two people who have been in touch with me looking for CB's.  We have another foal due end Feb/early March  I will be delighted whatever it is.

We lost a superb colt two years ago, who would had he survived, already have his competition career in France planned for him.

As far as competition is concerned I would love to see more CB stallions presented ridden rather than in hand.  I think we should, like other British Native Breeds have a HOYS Championship.


----------



## John Patrick (16 November 2012)

Hello magnificsporthorses. If you had been at the recent Cleveland Bay Horse Society Annual General Meeting on the 20th October 2012 then you would have heard Mrs. Barbara Martindale, Chair of the CBHS Breed Committee say in answer to a question that people can still put their mares and stallions forward to be inspected for a premium status award but that stallion owners would no longer receive a premium payment for obtaining that status. She went on to say that premium stallion owners would not be restricted in respect to what they are entitled to charge mare owners for covering their mares.

What has changed is that there will no longer be an exclusive premium stallion scheme where only premium status stallions are eligible to compete for the annual King George V Cup and receive premium payment for doing so. The annual stallion show has been opened up to include all registered and licenced pure stallions. The Society has asked for £1,000 from the HRLB to achieve this along with a further £1,000 to cover the cost of the Futurity Competition prizes and inspections. 

The CBHS Council Meeting minutes make clear that Mrs. Mary Douthwaite, the Society President and a Council Member will judge the 2013 King George V Cup competition.

You state above: &#8220;I also understand that the long-standing panel of horse inspectors was dismissed by the Council en bloc, to be replaced by a system of rotating Council members functioning as "horse assessors" whose qualifications and job description has not been shared with the membership as of yet. I am not certain about the fate of the QA program that JohnPatrick references, and look forward to learning about the futurity program &#8220;.

First there are no plans to alter the Quality Assured Stallion Licence system. The fate of it is not in any doubt so I don&#8217;t understand why you have raised this point?

As a Society member you are already aware from the Council Meeting minutes why the former Horse Inspectors have been replaced by Horse Assessors so again I am not clear why you have raised this on this forum?

Under Powers and Duties of Council, Appointment of Committees 21(c) the Council may: -
&#8220; Delegate any of their powers and duties (except the appointment and removal of Members of their body and of the Society) to Committees of any number (not less than three) of members of their body, and from time to time make, alter and rescind regulations and bye-laws for conducting the business delegated to such Committees provided that all acts and undertakings of any such Committee shall be fully reported to the Council as soon as possible.&#8221;

Some of the previous Horse Inspectors had not actually been properly appointed as such by the CBHS Council as was required under the governing document powers and duties. As Charity Trustees the Council had to correct that situation when they became aware of it. The former Horse Inspectors who were not Council members could not be included as three of the body of the CBHS Council referred to in Article 21©.

Since 2007 the CBHS Breed Committee has responsibility for horse inspections including the appointment of Horse Inspectors. The Breed Committee agreed that the Horse Inspectors, now called Horse Assessors should be made up of members on their body as well as other suitably qualified and experienced people. One reason for that was to ensure that there was a rotation of Horse Assessors and to encourage some younger people to put themselves forward to be trained to do this.  The Futurity Scheme that will be rolled out will involve training for Horse Assessors.

I am of the opinion that just as it is good practice to have a turn over of people on the Council, something that the Charity Commission advised and is now reflected in the Society Memorandum and Articles of Association concerning the appointment onto the Council that it is also in the interest of the breed to rotate the people that have been responsible for carrying out the various horse inspections.

I am not aware about the situation that you describe in North America about the CBHSNA&#8217;s performance award scheme so can&#8217;t comment on it other than to say that the CBHSNA is not an affiliated body of the CBHS and continually bringing up negative issues does no good for the reputation of the Cleveland Bay horse breed where ever they are located.


----------



## ClevelandBayUSA (16 November 2012)

Just to clarify -- The notes I received were dated 27 September and 15 October 2012 and made clear that there would be no premium status for stallions, although mares could continue to be put forward but without the financial awards.  I am sorry if this contradicts information put forward to the AGM.  I will seek clarification from the Breed Chair.  Thanks for pointing this out.

Your reference is also the first mention I have seen that indicates people other than current council members will be part of the panel of assessors.  Seems to me there could have been a smoother way to make the transition than to lose all of the expertise of years of inspections in one fell swoop.  

Sadly, the societies are alienating people who are out there breeding purebred and partbred Cleveland Bay horses.  The culture of control should be replaced by a culture of inclusion if these horses are going to continue to exist.  Each breeder, or potential breeder, who is discouraged represents very possibly a significant loss to the breed.

The negative issues are human-driven, not the fault of the horses.  There are real issues, and it lies upon the shoulders of those with decision-making authority to make policy in a way that heals and draws the community together, rather than to drive it apart.  I haven't really seen that yet, but I eagerly anticipate that positive steps will be taken.


----------



## John Patrick (16 November 2012)

The CBHS Chair Of Breed Committee, Barbara Martindale pointed out back in February 2012, as can be seen in the appendices to the Council Meeting of the 4th March 2012 that are available for members to view on the Society website that: &#8221; Of the utmost importance is that we MUST always work within the rules and regulations of the Society&#8217;s Memorandum and Articles.&#8221;

She said that &#8220;I have reviewed the CBHS Memorandum and Articles of Association to ascertain what is the approved role and responsibility of the Horse Inspector only to find that they are not mentioned anywhere in these documents. They do not appear to me to have any approved powers other than acting as a subcommittee of the Breed Committee which must consist of at least three people.&#8221; 

When the Society carried out a review of it&#8217;s structure and ways of working back in 2007 it agreed a report at the AGM known as &#8220;Forging the Future&#8221;.  In advance of that happening a discussion document was issued to all of the membership setting out what the Council was attempting to achieve. One of the issues in respect to committees was that &#8220; Each committee would have the power to co-opt individuals from outside of Council when appropriate. Non CBHS Members co-opted would not have a right to vote. Co-opted CBHS members would have a right to vote. Council members will at all times remain in the voting majority. The report on &#8220;Forging the Future &#8220; agreed at the 2007 AGM included the provisions that each CBHS Committee had the power to create appropriate standing sub committees and working groups e,g. SPARKS, Horse Inspectors, Southern Club plus could co-opt extra members as appropriate provided that Council members (Trustees) are always in the majority and no non members of the CBHS has a vote.&#8221;

I am surprised that as a CBHS member you state above that :

&#8220;Your reference is also the first mention I have seen that indicates people other than current council members will be part of the panel of assessors. Seems to me there could have been a smoother way to make the transition than to lose all of the expertise of years of inspections in one fell swoop.&#8221; 

Most of the former Horse Inspectors were not CBHS Council Members.The Society had to put in place a sub committee of horse assessors in order to carry out horse inspections correctly under it's delegated powers. The people appointed from the CBHS Breed Committee were all very experienced individuals with the breed and had for example judged it at national breed shows and been involved with the Society for years

At the 2012 AGM Barbara Martindale also made it clear that anyone, including the previous Horse Inspectors could put their names forward to become Horse Assessors.

I am disappointed that you state that: &#8220;Sadly, the societies are alienating people who are out there breeding purebred and partbred Cleveland Bay horses. The culture of control should be replaced by a culture of inclusion if these horses are going to continue to exist. Each breeder, or potential breeder, who is discouraged represents very possibly a significant loss to the breed.&#8221;

Every organization has to have rules and as a Registered Charity and Defra approved Stud Book holder that applies to the CBHS more than it does to some less formal bodies and clubs.

I understand that a minority of CBHS members such as yourself and some of the former Horse inspectors are not happy that the Society didn&#8217;t approve the proposed grade register change proposals that you have actively championed over the last years but the whole membership were given the opportunity to vote on this issue at the 2012 AGM and decided overwhelmingly not to agree to make the changes. As Dr Andrew Dell has said above &#8220;the debate has run its democratic process and it is now time to move forward and ensure that this great breed survives and thrives because of the Society and the people that care for it and not despite them!!!!&#8221; To do otherwise is to risk causing damage to the breed's future.


----------



## ClevelandBayUSA (16 November 2012)

John Patrick, you wrote "the whole membership were given the opportunity to vote on this issue at the 2012 AGM and decided overwhelmingly not to agree to make the changes."  Contrary to your characterization, I understand that a majority of 57 percent of the members who voted on the issue actually voted IN FAVOR of one of the three major prongs of the proposal.  Unfortunately the threshold required for adoption was 75 percent in favor.  

You may wish to dismiss this "minority" -- but were I in your position, I would be instead seeking to find common ground with many of these people who have devoted their lives (and in some cases generations of their families' lives) to breeding these special horses, and are quite concerned with where the breed is going.  Winning control is the easy part.  It's the successful governance that is the real trick.


----------



## Rollin (16 November 2012)

magnificsporthorses said:



			You may wish to dismiss this "minority" -- but were I in your position, I would be instead seeking to find common ground with many of these people who have devoted their lives (and in some cases generations of their families' lives) to breeding these special horses, and are quite concerned with where the breed is going.  Winning control is the easy part.  It's the successful governance that is the real trick.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, the 2012 President cautioned against this proposal.  He owns the oldest Cleveland Bay stud in the UK three generations of commitment to the Cleveland Bay.  The current Chair of our Breed Committee has been breeding Cleveland Bays for 30 years.  So who are the minority you refer to?  

Please bear in mind that at the 2011 AGM an attempt was made to push through the proposals without affording the membership a Proxy Vote.


----------



## Rollin (16 November 2012)

Magnificsporthorses.

I just want to add to my earlier post.

I sat in the 2006 CBHS AGM at which postal voting was discussed.  The then Chair, said if people were really interested they would travel to Yorkshire, if they could not be bothered why should they have a vote.

That includes you and me.  USA and France.  Even some members from Wales have to undertake two days of travel plus hotel bills to attend the AGM.

The very people who you criticise are the shakers and rattlers who have brought in postal voting and proxy voting.  That means you do not have to fly from Washington DC to Heathrow, make your way to Yorkshire - just to have your say.  You can vote without leaving the USA.


----------



## John Patrick (16 November 2012)

For the benefit of people who are not aware about the three Special Resolutions in Agenda item 5 of the CBHS AGM agenda for the membership to vote on they are as follows: -

 &#8220; 5.1. Grading Register rule change-All Horses will be placed within the Grading Register according to their % of pure Cleveland Bay blood. Both male and female horses to be treated the same throughout their progression through the Grading Register and also into the Pure Stud Book.
COUNCIL RECOMMENDS VOTING AGAINST THIS RESOLUTION.

5.2. Grading Register rule changes- The percentage of pure blood required for a horse to be eligible to go into the pure Stud Book to be reduced to 93.7% from the current 96.9% requirement.
COUNCIL RECOMMENDS VOTING FOR THIS RESOLUTION but only in respect to it applying to grading up under the terms and conditions outlined in the existing Grade Register Scheme Rules.

5.3. Grading Register rule changes- To empower the Council of the CBHS to Fast Track a grading register horse that has been identified by the Breed committee and approved by Council as being of exceptional value to the pure breed.
(Currently covered under the Contingency section).
COUNCIL RECOMMENDS VOTING AGAINST THIS RESOLUTION. 

The CBHS is listed with Companies House as a Company Limited by Guarantee, (Number 22866).

The CBHS is a Registered Charity (Number 293872) that regulates, promotes and preserves Pure and Part Bred Cleveland Bay Horses

As such it has to comply with both Company law such as the 2006 Companies Act and with Charity Laws that are in force here in the UK. 

The CBHS governing documents, it&#8217;s Memorandum & Articles of Association state at Article 29, Special business that:

 &#8220; All business shall be deemed special that is transacted at an Extraordinary Meeting, and also that which is transacted at an ordinary Meeting, with the exception of the election of members of the Council and the consideration of Accounts and Balance Sheets, and the ordinary report of the Council.&#8221; 

What that means is that in line with Article 29 and present legal provisions the proposed changes to the existing Grade Registers Scheme had to be treated as Special Resolutions and not as Ordinary Resolutions. To pass a Special Resolution 75% or more of the voting membership present at the AGM plus valid proxy votes received had to vote in favor of the resolution.

The 2012 CBHS AGM was the first one at which all Society members were afforded the right to vote on resolutions put to it by either attending in person themselves or by authorizing another member who was at the meeting to act as their proxy and to vote on their behalf.

The Society has members here in the UK and overseas in Europe, in North America and in Australasia so the 2012 AGM vote was conducted in a far more democratic way than has happened before. 

The result of the vote at the AGM for each of the three special resolutions was as follows: - 5.1. 40% For, 5.2. 57% For and 5.3. 32.7% For so all of them fell well short of the 75% or more required in favor to pass them.

The fact that the CBHS Council recommended to the members that members should vote in favor of Special Resolution 5.2, but only in respect to it applying to grading up under the terms and conditions outlined in the existing Grade Register Scheme Rules which would have meant for example that it would only have applied to fillies and not to colts some members have said that it encouraged  some of them to vote for it when they would otherwise not have done so because they wrongly thought that they would only be voting in favor of it in so far as it had been limited in the Council&#8217;s recommendation. That was not correct. They would have been voting for the words in the Special Resolution. The Council recommendation that tried to limit its impact was not a part of the wording of the Special Resolution.  Some members said that they didn&#8217;t appreciate that when they cast their vote in favor of agreeing with Special resolution 5.2 and that they would have voted against it had it been explained to them properly prior to them casting their vote either in proxy or in person. 

Magnificsporthorses incorrectly stated in the earlier post above on 09-11-12, 02:31 PM about the Horse & Hounds magazine article that: -

&#8220;The piece also states that the membership voted 60-40 against certain provisions of the proposed changes. It neglected to mention that 60 percent of the membership voted in favor of reducing the number of generations required for pure breeding prior to entrance into the full stud book, indicating majority support for some aspect of "grading up". 
As you now appreciate that is not the case.

Some of the former 2011 CBHS Council Members, including some that were Horse Inspectors tried to force these changes through without giving the membership the right to have a Breed Conference first to get advice from experts in the field of genetics etc. Most of the longstanding Cleveland Bay horse breeders here in the UK and other Society members signed a petition to ask the Council to convene a Breed Conference because of the wildly inaccurate claims that were being made about the state of the breed. That was ignored. We were offered a pre 2011 AGM discussion about the grade register proposals so as not to take up too much time in the AGM itself. It was only when myself and two other CBHS members pointed out that members hadn&#8217;t been afforded the right to have a proxy vote at the 2011 AGM as was required under the 2006 Company Act provisions that the matter was deferred. A Breed Conference was then held on the 1st September 2012 and the Council reconsidered their position and the advice that they have been given at it not to implement the proposed changes at their meeting held on the 2nd September and made the recommendations to the membership  set out against each of the three Special Resolutions put to the 2012 AGM for the members to decide one way or the other.

As I have said earlier, this issue has been debated to death and has taken up far too much valuable time distracting the attention of the Society and breeders away from the far more important task of implementing the initiatives identified in it&#8217;s agreed Strategy / Objectives Document that are aimed at preserving and increasing the number of pure Cleveland Bay horses. It is vitally important that all CBHS members and breeders focus their attention on this critical task and stop running down the breed&#8217;s and Society&#8217;s good reputation in the way that some appear to be determined to do.


----------



## harveysmom (17 November 2012)

rollin - i am heartened to hear that someone supports the geldings and the good job they do towards advertising the CB 
i also would like to see stallions out under saddle, but just out at all would be good
going back to geldings, had your colt survived was he to be gelded?
A HOYS championship would be wonderful, however it is just a dream you cant expect the HOYS organisers to include a cleveland class if we cant even fill the classes at our own national championship
Is there any chance at all we can coax a few more clevelands out of their fields and in to the showring next year so that potential buyers can see how impressive they are
i know i keep on about the Royal london but it was so well attended we out numbered the irish draught-not bad, pat on the back for all who attended


----------



## harveysmom (17 November 2012)

John patrick- i dont agree with your comment that people are actively trying ruin the reputation of the society and its members
i understand your focus on breeding good quality cleveland bays, however you cant just breed them and turn them out in a field and forget them,you need to sell them surely.
That is the concern of some people, there is no point breeding something that you cant sell.
So cleveland bays need to be out competing gaining that all important competition record,
pembridge has done it and he can sell his horses
Once there is a demand for cleveland bays their situation will reverse
so the two concerns go hand in hand
please get your horses into the shop window next year


----------



## John Patrick (17 November 2012)

Harveysmom you say that you don&#8217;t agree with me that some &#8221; people are actively trying to ruin the reputation of the society and its members&#8221; 

Do you seriously believe that when people such as magnificsporthorses and others regularly complain on this and on other public forums about the fact that the Society has not agreed with them about changing the existing grade registers scheme rules in the way that they want them to be altered that doing that will enhance the reputation of either the Society of the Cleveland Bay breed in the eyes of the wider equine community that we have to sell our horses to?  I don&#8217;t. Do you think that it will encourage anyone to want to buy either a pure or a part bred Cleveland Bay horse if all that they keep on hearing on forums like this one is that the horses lack quality etc? Again I don&#8217;t. 

My focus is on as you say, &#8220; breeding good quality Cleveland Bays&#8221;.  Given the very low number of pure Cleveland Bay foals being born and registered with the Society at the moment that should be the prime focus of all concerned Cleveland Bay breeders in the immediate future if we are going to have enough pure horses on the ground to sustain the pure Cleveland Bay horse population going forward.

I have three pure Cleveland Bay mares.  I think that it is far more important for the breed&#8217;s survival for them to be used to breed good quality pure foals from at present than to take them away from that job to compete them instead. It is not easy to both breed from and compete mares at the same time.

Are you seriously suggesting that, with so few pure foals being born that some breeders can&#8217;t sell them?  I don&#8217;t believe that from my experience. Without advertising them I have had two enquiries this week alone from people wanting to know if I had any Cleveland Bay horses for sale solely based upon my listing as a breeder on the Society&#8217;s website. I have passed those enquiries on to other breeders.

Perhaps I am fortunate but people who have come into contact with my horses regularly ask me if I will sell them to them because they tell me that they recognize them as being good quality horses. Some people weren&#8217;t aware when they asked me that they were pure Cleveland Bay horses and were surprised when I told them that they were because they haven&#8217;t seen any examples of the breed before but have usually heard the negative press about them.

I notice that Rollins has also had similar enquiries from people over in France that want to buy Cleveland Bay horses.

I agree with you and other commentators that the Cleveland Bay horse needs to be far better promoted to the general equine fraternity than it is has been so far, if only to dispel the inaccurate negative impression that some people have about it. I am pleased that the Society has applied to the HRLB for some additional funding to help it to advertise stallions to mare owners as other Societies do in advance of the covering season.

It is not all about horses having a competition record though. There are different potential sales markets for both pure and part bred Cleveland Bay horses such as the large leisure and pleasure riding and driving ones which should not be ignored as others have already said.

I would personally prefer to see geldings and part bred Cleveland Bay horses out competing than pure Cleveland Bay mares. I would also like to see their owners promoting them as part bred Cleveland Bay when they are out competing. If people see part bred Cleveland Bay horses being successful when out competing horses, as I believe that they can be against other breeds and types of horses based upon the success of the likes of Spring Pascal, Baydale Venus and Hawlmark Classic Twilight to name a few that should generate interest in the breed and in retaining pure Cleveland Bays in order to be able to breed more good quality part bred horses in the future.


----------



## Rollin (17 November 2012)

harveysmom said:



			rollin - i am heartened to hear that someone supports the geldings and the good job they do towards advertising the CB 
i also would like to see stallions out under saddle, but just out at all would be good
going back to geldings, had your colt survived was he to be gelded?
A HOYS championship would be wonderful, however it is just a dream you cant expect the HOYS organisers to include a cleveland class if we cant even fill the classes at our own national championship
Is there any chance at all we can coax a few more clevelands out of their fields and in to the showring next year so that potential buyers can see how impressive they are
i know i keep on about the Royal london but it was so well attended we out numbered the irish draught-not bad, pat on the back for all who attended
		
Click to expand...

Had my colt survived, he would have been kept entire to replace his sire had he had the quality or gelded if not.

ALL my horses are backed when they are old enough.  You may not be aware of the sad story with my existing stallion, purchased as a 3 year old and expensively backed in France.  We found however, he did not want to canter on the left rein.  My vet advised more schooling so he was sent to a top dressage rider who found the same.  I thought he had a back problem my vet insisted he did not but top dressage rider agreed with me.

She recommended taking him to the Professor at Nantes, who found he had a badly healed fracture in his neck and two kissing spines probably caused by the same accident and not congenital.  His diagnosis was these were old injuries probably caused during the first year of his life.  It says a great deal about his temperament that he has NEVER attempted to buck me off even though he must have been in pain.

He was passed sound by a total of FIVE vets in UK and France but can never compete, otherwise you would certainly have seen him under the saddle, by the way the dressage trainer rated him highly.

He produces quality foals.  Currently he has two three year old fillies one in France and one in the UK.


----------



## harveysmom (17 November 2012)

rollin
I would like to reply to you first, i am really sorry that you lost your colt it is devastating for any owner and in this case a loss to the CB the boys have their part to play in this.
Also i lost my gelding Barbarian Brigadier to a broken neck, an accident in the field he had just turned 3, i still feel the loss over 4 years on as he was showing promise the judges loved him and i was looking forward to the ridden classes
with geldings do you think more should be done to recognise the role they play in promoting the breed?
because you say you dont believe geldings are scrap, and believe geldings fill a vital role so mares can stay at home and be mums

John patrick
I do agree with alot of what you say such as mentioned above mares should if possible stay out of competition and breed foals. 
Leave the competitions to the geldings,however not all geldings are filling this role, geldings are thin on the ground as well so everyones efforts count and should be recognised. If i were wearing rose tinted spectacles i would believe this but the truth is that gelding owners feel de-valued and second class citizens,
i am not on my own!
As for the remainder of the comments made by magnific ..., I believe that we are all entitled to our own opinion, after all it is a debate!


----------



## John Patrick (17 November 2012)

Harveysmom, sorry to hear about the loss of Barbarian Brigadier. Like Rolllin I think that all pure and part bred Cleveland Bay horses are important.

In relation to your comment about this being a debate and people are entitled to their own opoinions I accept that but would also caution that it is sometimes not always in the breed's long term best interests to keep going over these issues again and again.  

I am sure that there are far more positive issues that we could all discuss instead that would be more beneficial to the breed and Society?


----------



## Rollin (18 November 2012)

I will join this debate again later, on my own at the moment with too many horses!!  Briefly.

Can I point out that overseas members do not receive any funding through the HBLB grant for mares, stallions, pure bred foals or DNA testing.  As far as France is concerned I am not complaining, I cannot telephone or email my UK bookmaker (gated) and last year the Paris Mutual did not feature the Grand National..boo hoo.

I am pleased that mare Premiums will not be based on financial award.  I have a mare who should be awarded Premium status based on her quality and regardless of financial reward.


----------



## texascbs (18 November 2012)

There have been a few comments regarding Cleveland Bay activities in North America where it is thought at least 18% of the worldwide population resides and thrives.  These comments reflect the views of the one author and not necessarily of all NA breeders, owners and enthusiasts.

Please direct any questions, comments, and concerns about the CB in North America to the Cleveland Bay Horse Society of North America at info@clevelandbay.org or visit www.clevelandbay.org 

Thanks so much


----------



## texascbs (18 November 2012)

Attended the CBHS North America annual meeting last week (very productive meeting) which was at the same location as the American Livestock Breeds Conservancy meeting.  I was fortunate to attend one of the pre conference seminars with Dr. Phil Sponenberg as one of the panelists.

What Dr. Andy Dell wrote describing Dr. Sponenberg is exactly how he presented his views on grading up and promoting rare breeds.   It would be wonderful to have geneticists, biologists and equine researchers at one table in a panel discussion, but I don't think any organization has the money to assemble them at one location to cover their expenses. 

Yet if this could be managed, we ALL must come to the table with an open mind and a common goal that we have these horses (pure and partbred) because we love them and want them to thrive now and the future.


----------



## ClevelandBayUSA (18 November 2012)

There is also a very active, independent network of North American Cleveland Bay breeders, owners and exhibitors, that may be reached via email at midatlantic.cb@gmail.com.  This informal group puts on a series of Cleveland Bay shows and organizes the annual Cleveland Bay Hunting Days with various packs in Virginia and Maryland (so far).  This group also publishes a newsletter at least quarterly.


----------



## Rollin (19 November 2012)

magnificsporthorses said:



			There is also a very active, independent network of North American Cleveland Bay breeders, owners and exhibitors, that may be reached via email at midatlantic.cb@gmail.com.  This informal group puts on a series of Cleveland Bay shows and organizes the annual Cleveland Bay Hunting Days with various packs in Virginia and Maryland (so far).  This group also publishes a newsletter at least quarterly.
		
Click to expand...

Your Cleveland Bay Hunting Days were 'inspired'.  I love my picture size photo of the Middletown Valley Hounds.  A fantastic way to promote the breed.

Whenever we are at Lion D'Angers or Saumur for eventing or HDT we put it up in the window of our parked car and lots of admiring French people gather round.

I still hope we will get a UK pack to play.


----------



## texascbs (19 November 2012)

The information posted regarding the Cleveland Bay Horse Society of North America's Performance Awards program is incorrect.

If anyone would like information on the CBHSNA Performance Awards program, please write info@clevelandbay.org  and visit www.clevelandbay.org

Thanks


----------



## Rollin (19 November 2012)

Harvey's mum and John Patrick.

My comments on competition.  Of course we should see geldings in competition but I do not agree that mares should be kept just for breeding.  We have 300 pure bred mares and this year they produced just 20 foals.  There is no reason for them not to compete.

Our i/f mare took part in her first endurance this summer.  Our mares only foal every two years anyway, we keep them in work in between.

I think Cleveland Bays can compete with the best in show and working hunter classes, as riding club horses and in endurance, which I am told is the fastest growing sport in the world.

A tale of two breed societies.  The Shagya is also a rare breed, with just 50 foals registered each year in France for the past few years.  There are just 80 members of Shagya France BUT in 2012 they put 70 foals on the ground.

CBHS has 250-300 members and this year has put just 20 foals on the ground.

AFCAS (Shagya France) identified endurance as the principal shop window for the Shagya and went all out to target this market place.  The Cleveland Bay is a fantastic horse for endurance and it has additional benefits, it will carry weight and is sooooo comfortable, that matters.  We should encourage our members to have a go.  If I can do my first endurance aged 63 ...so can you!!!

2011 Stallion gradings in France.  Four International Judges.  Video on AFCAS website within a week put up by a volunteer.  Just like CBHS no paid help.  It is the members that make it happen.


----------



## texascbs (19 November 2012)

I completely agree with Rollin about mares.
We must be positive, and not state what we can not do.

All horses must have a job.  I have three pure mares and one partbred mare.
All are ridden, and all purebred mares have or will have purebred foals in their lifetime.
They are great ambassadors for those who do not ride or drive their horses.

Geldings have the most diversity in riding/driving as they don't breed, but
unless there is some injury all sexes should be ridden or driven. At the very least have good ground manners and look healthy and happy in the field.

If your mares and stallions are only to be breeding stock and someone wants a closer look, they must be well handled and mannered for visitors and potential buyers, etc.  Yet I am probably preaching to the choir on all of this.

I agree that distance riding which in the States includes endurance and competitive trail are an excellent under utilized market for pure and partbreds.


----------



## Welly (19 November 2012)

I find reading all these posts most interesting especially as we have no forum on the official CB web site and thank you JP, at last I have found out what happened at the AGM.
I am sorry but have I missed the point or are people actually saying that geldings are worthless to the breed, they should be the show case for the breed. A lot of every day riders, which is most of the riders in this country, want trainable, sound horses, and about half of them prefer geldings. So why leave lovely CB geldings in the fields unbroken.   Also, competition riders of all levels look at the breeding of the horse they are about to buy and would prefer a horse from a stallion with a proven competition record; most people think a stallion history more important than the mares.  Are there any Cleveland Bay stallions competing at medium/high level dressage or show jumping, or anything?   Perhaps this is where the Breed Society should be looking to give more support


----------



## Zuzan (19 November 2012)

Welly said:



			I find reading all these posts most interesting especially as we have no forum on the official CB web site and thank you JP, at last I have found out what happened at the AGM.
I am sorry but have I missed the point or are people actually saying that geldings are worthless to the breed, they should be the show case for the breed. A lot of every day riders, which is most of the riders in this country, want trainable, sound horses, and about half of them prefer geldings. So why leave lovely CB geldings in the fields unbroken.
		
Click to expand...

^^ This..  It would make a lot of sense for the CBHS to support breeders with young geldings to help them develop the youngsters as sport horses..  The geldings could be the flagship of the breed if correctly produced.

The market for the CB needs to be developed..  the debate about the grading and genetics is interesting but nothing to do with marketing the CB as a quality sport horse for the everyday rider and hunter.

Develop the market for the CB and at least half the battle about genetics and breeding will be sorted as the breed will be being bred for a sport (all the different disciplines) .. and will ensure that quality of the CB is continued ..  

This is where the ISH and WBs have stolen a march on the CB .. they produce and market their geldings as sport horses (for whichever discipline/s the horse is best suited)

Leaving the geldings in the field and not producing them as quality horses undermines the WHOLE breed.


----------



## harveysmom (20 November 2012)

Hello to all concerned, just to clarify it was JP who believes mares should focus on breeding [i agree if they are on mum duties].  You have quite rightly pointed out that with 300 mares out there and only 20 foals born every year, this does mean that 280 mares have no excuses and should compete if possible. The problem is that for what ever reason mares/geldings and stallions are just not competing. Dont you think we need to find out why. As i pointed out already people are so unfamiliar with what a cleveland bay looks like when they see one they think its irish draught, so you can guess who gets the credit if they like what they see, thats not good for clevelands.
Also if there are 20 foals born why do we only see one at shows if we are lucky,foals have the ahh factor a great tool for atracting interest.
JP said he has no problem selling his horses, thats great news, how many JP? the woodlander stud is just down the road from us they sell 30-40 a year and thats just one stud, thats the sort of numbers the cleveland breeders need to aim for.
the woodlander dont need to advertise their horses the top riders competing them do that for them so dont under estimate the need for competition results, thats what will boost interest in the breed and then hopefully you wont be able to keep up with demand. 

My horses do not stick to showing, although obviously the two year old has to at the moment, the others have done endurance training rides, fun rides and dressage. This is just the tip of the iceberg for the 5 yr old he likes his jumping so hopefully next year showjumping and hunter trials for him, he started this year with being broken in so did his best in the ridden classes which is far better than not turning up at all. 
The people who broke him wanted to take him eventing, he was their first taste of cleveland bays and they loved him, they are fighting over who is going to brake the next one. With the 2 yr old, one of the judges this year advised us to get him professionally produced as she feels he would do well in the hunter classes[i trust this ladies judgement shes been to HOYS enough times to know her stuff]
The bottom line is that my clevelands will have a go at anything. I might have a go at TREC
who knows.
The very fact that my clevelands go out and meet people helps, i have people asking where they can get one, or ask to buy mine [slim chance] so JP my PR skills are helping you sell your horses without you realising it


----------



## John Patrick (20 November 2012)

To recap what I said above was: - 

 I have three pure Cleveland Bay mares. I think that it is far more important for the breeds survival for them to be used to breed good quality pure foals from at present than to take them away from that job to compete them instead. It is not easy to both breed from and compete mares at the same time.

 That was in response to Harveysmom who said to me: -

I understand your focus on breeding good quality cleveland bays, however you cant just breed them and turn them out in a field and forget them, you need to sell them surely.
That is the concern of some people, there is no point breeding something that you cant sell.
So cleveland bays need to be out competing gaining that all important competition record, pembridge has done it and he can sell his horses.Once there is a demand for cleveland bays their situation will reverse so the two concerns go hand in hand.
Please get your horses into the shop window next year.

I dont just breed from my horses, turn them out into a field and forget about them and neither do I think that anyone should do that either.

Rollin said: -

 . but I do not agree that mares should be kept just for breeding. We have 300 pure bred mares and this year they produced just 20 foals. There is no reason for them not to compete. ..  CBHS has 250-300 members and this year has put just 20 foals on the ground. 

 The CBHS doesnt have 250 300 members based upon the last published data and it certainly doesnt have 250-300 members who are breeders.

At the CBHS AGM on the 20th October the Stud Book Editor said that there were only around 12 pure foals registered up to that date with the Society for 2012 on a global basis but that he knew that there were others that hadnt been registered with it.

 Texascbs above:-

  I completely agree with Rollin about mares.
We must be positive, and not state what we can not do.
All horses must have a job. I have three pure mares and one partbred mare. All are ridden, and all purebred mares have or will have purebred foals in their lifetime.

Harveysmom said, Hello to all concerned, just to clarify it was JP who believes should focus on breeding [I agree if they are on mum duties].  .   The very fact that my clevelands go out and meet people helps, I have people asking where they can get one, or ask to buy mine [slim chance] so JP my PR skills are helping you sell your horses without you realising it. 

The agreed Cleveland Bay Strategy/ Objectives document that was published in 2009 states that its number one strategy is: -

 To encourage the breeding of Cleveland Bay horses so that by 2018 the breed is no longer listed by the Rare Breeds survival trust in their highest risk category- Critical 1.

It goes on to say that it seeks to achieve that by increasing the number of filly foals registered to 30-35 a year from the current level of 27 through strategies 2-7 in the document plus by supporting and encouraging purebred breeders by offering them financial assistance to breed and register pure foals.

Dr Andrew Dells research into the breed that was published earlier on this year highlighted that the Society and breeders needs to up their game and breed and register at least 45 pure fillies each year to get the breed off the RBSTs Watchlist critically endangered classification and to be able to maintain the pure breed population going forward.

That is why I think that at present with the low number of pure foals being born and registered, including both fillies and colts that the top priority for mare owners is to breed from them instead of competing them. If the pure ClevelandB horse population is not maintained then it doesnt matter how much effort goes into marketing and promoting because we will not have any pure foals or horses to sell when people come knocking at our doors to buy them. That involves more mare owners breeding from them than happens at present if they are in a position to do so.

I have argued for some time that at present geldings (both pure and part bred ones) and part bred horses should be used to promote the breed by getting them out in front of the wider equine community in a whole host of ways, including showing and competing them to what ever level the individual horse and its owner is competent to perform at or by taking part in various pleasure riding and driving activities that exist.

Obviously it is up to each horse owner to decide what they want to do with their horse. Not everyone has the facilities, resources or time required to breed from their horses. Equally not everyone wants to compete his or her horses either.


----------



## texascbs (20 November 2012)

John Patrick:

As Rollin wrote, OS breeders (OS defined as anyone outside of the UK) do not qualify for incentive funds from the HRBL.   I am not currently a CBHS member but I was for 10 years, and it would have been nice to have some sort of financial assistance for OS member breeders to produce purebreds.  For a few years, everyone received a free registration if we had SPARKS compliant foal.
It was only a 15 pound value and a pittance compared to UK benefits, but it was something and much appreciated.   Except for cheap petrol, our costs to produce purebreds far exceed those in the UK.    The late Nigel Cowgill, studbook editor, used to compliment OS breeders for having our registration paperwork in better order than long time UK breeders.  

In North America, we do what we can to help the breed.  We sponsor a CB award for kids in US Pony Club who use CBs in their PC activities.  Mid Atlantic folks show series are going as is their CB hunting days.  People see me riding and hunting my CBs and then they go find breeders here and abroad to buy them.  So though my mares do not produce foals every year, they are free advertising for those who keep their mares in production.

I feel it is much better that I ride my purebred mares and breed occasionally than they never are bred or only have partbred foals.  I know purebred mares and stallions owned by prestigious members who have never had a pure foal and seem to never leave their own property.  That certainly is not good to promote the breed.


----------



## John Patrick (20 November 2012)

Hello Texascbs.

This isn&#8217;t about whether or not any one member does more for the breed  than  another  ones  does. As I have said previously each person will decide for themselves what  they think is right for them, their horses and for the breed. 

However I don&#8217;t think that anyone can successfully argue that  we all don&#8217;t need to do more collectively to increase the number of pure foals that are being born and registered with the Society at present.

I have merely expressed my point  of view in response to a question put to me on this forum by Harveysmom that at this point in time, because the  pure Cleveland Bay breed numbers are falling that we should seek to use our pure mares to breed and register from them more pure Cleveland Bay foals each year just as the Society has encouraged us all to do in it&#8217;s published Strategy / Objectives  document  if we want  to get anywhere near  to  achieving the targets  outlined in it and in Dr Andrew  Dell&#8217;s recommendations concerning the number of pure filly foals that  we need to breed and registered each year  to build  the pure  Cleveland Bay breeding population up into a more healthy and sustainable position than it is currently in.

The CBHS is fortunate that it has been successful in obtaining from the HRLB an annual grant award to assist UK based pure Cleveland Bay breeders to breed and register more pure foals with it. Without that support the number of pure Cleveland Bay horses would probably be even lower than it is at present. That is something that none of us want.

The CBHS doesn&#8217;t set the conditions  attached to the grant award but it has to comply with them if it wants to receive the money. The conditions are determined  by the HRLB and by the UK taxman. The grant  money can only be used to support UK based issues  and breeders whether  you and I like that or not.

I have argued within the Society for some time that it could  and should use some of it&#8217;s reserves that don&#8217;t have any such restrictions placed on them to support overseas members.  I would personally like to reach a position where all members wherever  they are based are treated in the same way.


----------



## texascbs (20 November 2012)

John Patrick

I believe we all must work together worldwide to get this breed back on its feet.  We need more communication and marketing.  When more people to see the purebred's qualities and a riding and driving horse and a breed to outcross for top sport horses, then breeders will produce more.  The subsidies are good but only one piece as as stated due to UK federal law limited to UK residents.

Both strategies work together breed and get them into the public eye.  We must do it at the grassroots level all working together as no one is going to hand to us.  We have discussed what activities CB groups are doing in North America.  Australasia just completed a successful exposition at Equitana and their show season is now getting into full swing.    You guys have Olympia and then we start again with breeding and shows in the new year.


----------



## Rollin (20 November 2012)

Zuzan said:



			^^ This..  It would make a lot of sense for the CBHS to support breeders with young geldings to help them develop the youngsters as sport horses..  The geldings could be the flagship of the breed if correctly produced.

The market for the CB needs to be developed..  the debate about the grading and genetics is interesting but nothing to do with marketing the CB as a quality sport horse for the everyday rider and hunter.

Develop the market for the CB and at least half the battle about genetics and breeding will be sorted as the breed will be being bred for a sport (all the different disciplines) .. and will ensure that quality of the CB is continued ..  

This is where the ISH and WBs have stolen a march on the CB .. they produce and market their geldings as sport horses (for whichever discipline/s the horse is best suited)

Leaving the geldings in the field and not producing them as quality horses undermines the WHOLE breed.
		
Click to expand...

Zusan,

Britain continues to treat horse breeding and ownership as the preserve of the wealthy, and of little economic importance.  As evidenced by for example planning restrictions for stables, field shelters and even show jumps.

The rest of Europe treats breeders in the same way as farmers.  At great expense we employ a French Agricultural Accountant who is worth every penny - were he not, we would have closed this stud four years ago.

Ireland is one of those EU nation states which values horse breeding.  You cannot compare ISH with CBHS.

Did you know that the French National Stud gives financial support for Breed Championships for a whole range of 'non-French' breeds, including British natives?

In 2009, the Director of the French National Stud and the head of SIRE the French Equine database offered to travel to  Yorkshire and meet with CBHS Council.  They received a rude rebuff.

What a pity.  Perhaps we would now see CB Championships in France funded by IFCE.


----------



## texascbs (20 November 2012)

I would love to come and have a nice holiday in France and visit my husband's aunt outside of Paris.

Now trying to figure out how to afford the 2014 World Championships out there too.


----------



## Rollin (20 November 2012)

texascbs said:



			I would love to come and have a nice holiday in France and visit my husband's aunt outside of Paris.

Now trying to figure out how to afford the 2014 World Championships out there too.
		
Click to expand...

Is that a hint?  Just take the TGV to Le Man 90mins from Paris and we will collect you! You have to help with the chores though.   The Equine Director at Colonial Williamsburg is an FEI course builder for HDT.  We know he will be here in 2014.

An American invasion perhaps?


----------



## Rollin (20 November 2012)

John Patrick said:



			Hello Texascbs.

This isnt about whether or not any one member does more for the breed  than  another  ones  does. As I have said previously each person will decide for themselves what  they think is right for them, their horses and for the breed. 

However I dont think that anyone can successfully argue that  we all dont need to do more collectively to increase the number of pure foals that are being born and registered with the Society at present.

I have merely expressed my point  of view in response to a question put to me on this forum by Harveysmom that at this point in time, because the  pure Cleveland Bay breed numbers are falling that we should seek to use our pure mares to breed and register from them more pure Cleveland Bay foals each year just as the Society has encouraged us all to do in its published Strategy / Objectives  document  if we want  to get anywhere near  to  achieving the targets  outlined in it and in Dr Andrew  Dells recommendations concerning the number of pure filly foals that  we need to breed and registered each year  to build  the pure  Cleveland Bay breeding population up into a more healthy and sustainable position than it is currently in.

The CBHS is fortunate that it has been successful in obtaining from the HRLB an annual grant award to assist UK based pure Cleveland Bay breeders to breed and register more pure foals with it. Without that support the number of pure Cleveland Bay horses would probably be even lower than it is at present. That is something that none of us want.

The CBHS doesnt set the conditions  attached to the grant award but it has to comply with them if it wants to receive the money. The conditions are determined  by the HRLB and by the UK taxman. The grant  money can only be used to support UK based issues  and breeders whether  you and I like that or not.

I have argued within the Society for some time that it could  and should use some of its reserves that dont have any such restrictions placed on them to support overseas members.  I would personally like to reach a position where all members wherever  they are based are treated in the same way.
		
Click to expand...

You are quite correct.  I believe, however, that match funding has to be provided by CBHS, which is discretionary?

I am not complaining about the 'dosh' as I have said. That is a drop in the ocean compared to 7 years of warfare over registration of pure bred foals born in France. I DO think that Premium status should be awarded on the quality of each horse presented.  I am more than happy to pay travel expenses for an Assessor AND I would like that inspection to printed on open forum.

Even if my horse gets poor marks.  No point having a QA system if it is a well kept secret.

Our customers need to understand what denotes a Premium horse.


----------



## texascbs (20 November 2012)

Chores are no problem at all.  Not hinting just dreaming.  

I know our huntsman from Dorset wants to go too and her mom is still near the New Forest area. ?? not sure.

so darned tempting, and then I need to find my way to Aurainville to see hubby's aunt.

Back to CBs.   Must get out and promote them.
thanks


----------



## Zuzan (20 November 2012)

Rollin said:



			Zusan,

Britain continues to treat horse breeding and ownership as the preserve of the wealthy, and of little economic importance.  As evidenced by for example planning restrictions for stables, field shelters and even show jumps.

The rest of Europe treats breeders in the same way as farmers.  At great expense we employ a French Agricultural Accountant who is worth every penny - were he not, we would have closed this stud four years ago.

Ireland is one of those EU nation states which values horse breeding.  You cannot compare ISH with CBHS.

Did you know that the French National Stud gives financial support for Breed Championships for a whole range of 'non-French' breeds, including British natives?

In 2009, the Director of the French National Stud and the head of SIRE the French Equine database offered to travel to  Yorkshire and meet with CBHS Council.  They received a rude rebuff.

What a pity.  Perhaps we would now see CB Championships in France funded by IFCE.
		
Click to expand...

I dont doubt that Britain is uniquely awkward about the equine industries..  but my point is not that the UK doesnt disadvantage (comparative to other EU countries) breeders   and Im not comparing ISH breeding / warmbloods etc directly with the CB..  Just that CB breeders need to have support to produce and compete their horses.. the Geldings especially.   

My feeling is that the funds the CBHS has earmarked for marketing would be better directed to the production  / training of the geldings.   Even as a loss leader their purpose may not be best in terms of generating income but as flagships for the breed.

Getting hung up on financial support isnt the point (tho of course it helps)  

Quite clearly despite the CBHS support to breeders it isnt working  in terms of foals on the ground.. no support will work unless the breeders have a market to sell their young stock into.    

I am sure if the CB had a market the breeding would happen.  Demand is the key to getting youngsters on the ground.

Look at the market for Irish / coloured Cobs..  why is the UK importing them when we have the superb CB?   

Le Trec is gaining ground as a popular equestrian sport and a discipline I bet the CB would be the ultimate horse for this newish discipline.  

The CBHS needs to look for opportunities in the market and exploit them better.

My point is about making the market for horses work for the CB.  It is about market development.

Am shocked at the CBHS rebuff to the French Nat Stud and SIRE.  Why were they rebuffed?


----------



## texascbs (20 November 2012)

I DO think that Premium status should be awarded on the quality of each horse presented.  I am more than happy to pay travel expenses for an Assessor AND I would like that inspection to printed on open forum.

Even if my horse gets poor marks.  No point having a QA system if it is a well kept secret.

Our customers need to understand what denotes a Premium horse.[/QUOTE]

Yes we need more open records.   Over in the States, many don't understand that a premium stallion in the UK isn't better than a QA stallion.  Premium doesn't mean better than, it means one receives a payment or premium if once inspected they agree to the terms listed by the CHBS.  Sort of like US farm subsidies.   Now that the CBHS has granted premium mares OS which makes it even more confusing as premium OS mares are sort of the equivalent of a QA stallion because a premium OS mare doesn't get s premium or payment but they are premium ie. premium quality.  Wish the CBHS would have come up with a different term for mares like QA mare or Elite mare instead of premium.

Just think OS breeders manage to show, ride, drive, hunt and produce purebreds probably at a higher rate than our friends in the UK, and we do it without subsidies.    We have them just not all registered.  I think we had at least 5 pures born in NA last year.  not sure


----------



## harveysmom (21 November 2012)

Hi, i think Zuzan has got the point im trying to make, if pure-bred geldings go out and do a good job advertising the breed the breeders will need to increase the amount they breed to match the increased damand
why do you think companies pay for advertising on the telly, its to INCREASE sales.
The pure-bred gelding owners have been offering you this on a plate and you dont seem to See the advantage, i did say you think of them as waste
Start thinking of them as salesman

To correct JP i was refering to the number of mares of breeding age not the number of members of the CBHS
If there are 300 mares of breeding age and we only get 20 foals a year what are the other 280 mares doing?
if demand was good enough i bet all 300 would be expecting, the point to this is i think we would struggle to sell 300 foals a year at present
Coloured horses are in fashion at the moment this has not always been the case 
ex racehorses used to go for meat now we cant get enough of them
Two examples of what good marketing can do
thanks for the support Zuzan


----------



## Rollin (21 November 2012)

I am not aware of any marketing budget.  I give my time and expertise for free.

If you look at the accounts, which have to be of public record for a Charity, you will see that the society is hard pressed to cover basic overheads.

Which is why in common with other charities a number of members engage in fund raising.  I hope their efforts will be recognised in the next Bay Window.


----------



## texascbs (21 November 2012)

Marketing
Many non profits have limited budgets.
It is down to members and enthusiasts to post as much possible on free websites and forums and wear CB stuff at events, shows, etc.  Add CB stuff to your horse box, trailers, etc, and if someone walks by and asks about CBs, you take the time to promote the breed besides your own horses.

The CBHS North America produced a DVD that is free to anyone as long as they pay actual postage.  write info@clevelandbay.org  It will play on computers if you live outside North America.  All members should have flyers or info brochures handy in their truck or trailer when someone asks about CBs.

All members must submit articles and upcoming events to CB and any publication, and press your editors to publish articles not just about purebreds but about Partbreds too.

it takes effort from everyone and you can do it on a shoe string budget, if you can get many involved.


----------



## harveysmom (22 November 2012)

Hi Rollin, i wasnt suggesting any money be given to gelding owners, we, as i said are ready and willing to promote the breed, its just we do feel as though,how can i put it, we are not welcome at the party 
JP puts breeding as the main priority and it is important but he focuses on that at the cost of anyone elses interests in the cleveland bay. If non-breeding stock can increase the appeal of the breed JP will need to breed more
As a non breeding owner i need to focus my attention on showing the public what i lovely horse they really are
I not even sure if im allowed to put CB material on my horsebox,im happy to do so and am happy to talk CB to anyone who comes over always have been


----------



## John Patrick (22 November 2012)

Harveysmom  said :-

&#8220;Hi Rollin, i wasnt suggesting any money be given to gelding owners, we, as i said are ready and willing to promote the breed, its just we do feel as though,how can i put it, we are not welcome at the party 
JP puts breeding as the main priority and it is important but he focuses on that at the cost of anyone elses interests in the cleveland bay. If non-breeding stock can increase the appeal of the breed JP will need to breed more
As a non breeding owner i need to focus my attention on showing the public what i lovely horse they really are
I not even sure if im allowed to put CB material on my horsebox,im happy to do so and am happy to talk CB to anyone who comes over always have been &#8220; 

I have not said at anytime that I or anyone else should focus on breeding as Harveysmom says above &#8220; at the cost of anyone elses interests in the cleveland bay.&#8220;

What I did said in my posts was:-

(1) In my first post on 17-11-12 at 02:46 AM.

&#8220;My focus is on as you say, &#8220; breeding good quality Cleveland Bays&#8221;. Given the very low number of pure Cleveland Bay foals being born and registered with the Society at the moment that should be the prime focus of all concerned Cleveland Bay breeders in the immediate future if we are going to have enough pure horses on the ground to sustain the pure Cleveland Bay horse population going forward.

I have three pure Cleveland Bay mares. I think that it is far more important for the breed&#8217;s survival for them to be used to breed good quality pure foals from at present than to take them away from that job to compete them instead. It is not easy to both breed from and compete mares at the same time.&#8221;  

(2) In my second post on the 20-11-12 at 01:47 AM.

&#8220;I don&#8217;t just breed from my horses, turn them out into a field and forget about them and neither do I think that anyone should do that either.&#8221; 

& further on in the same post.

&#8220;The agreed Cleveland Bay Strategy/ Objectives document that was published in 2009 states that it&#8217;s number one strategy is: -

&#8220; To encourage the breeding of Cleveland Bay horses so that by 2018 the breed is no longer listed by the Rare Breeds survival trust in their highest risk category- &#8220;Critical 1&#8221;.

It goes on to say that it seeks to achieve that by increasing the number of filly foals registered to 30-35 a year from the current level of 27 through strategies 2-7 in the document plus by supporting and encouraging purebred breeders by offering them financial assistance to breed and register pure foals.

Dr Andrew Dell&#8217;s research into the breed that was published earlier on this year highlighted that the Society and breeders needs to up their game and breed and register at least 45 pure fillies each year to get the breed off the RBST&#8217;s Watchlist critically endangered classification and to be able to maintain the pure breed population going forward.

That is why I think that at present with the low number of pure foals being born and registered, including both fillies and colts that the top priority for mare owners is to breed from them instead of competing them. If the pure ClevelandB horse population is not maintained then it doesn&#8217;t matter how much effort goes into marketing and promoting because we will not have any pure foals or horses to sell when people come knocking at our doors to buy them. That involves more mare owners breeding from them than happens at present if they are in a position to do so.&#8221; 

(3) In my third post on 20-11-12 at 03:00 AM.

&#8220; This isn&#8217;t about whether or not any one member does more for the breed than another ones does. As I have said previously each person will decide for themselves what they think is right for them, their horses and for the breed. 

However I don&#8217;t think that anyone can successfully argue that we all don&#8217;t need to do more collectively to increase the number of pure foals that are being born and registered with the Society at present.

I have merely expressed my point of view in response to a question put to me on this forum by Harveysmom that at this point in time, because the pure Cleveland Bay breed numbers are falling that we should seek to use our pure mares to breed and register from them more pure Cleveland Bay foals each year just as the Society has encouraged us all to do in it&#8217;s published Strategy / Objectives document if we want to get anywhere near to achieving the targets outlined in it and in Dr Andrew Dell&#8217;s recommendations concerning the number of pure filly foals that we need to breed and registered each year to build the pure Cleveland Bay breeding population up into a more healthy and sustainable position than it is currently in.&#8221; 

I specified in my post on the 17-11-12 at 02:46 AM to Harveysmom that:- 

 &#8220; I agree with you and other commentators that the Cleveland Bay horse needs to be far better promoted to the general equine fraternity than it is has been so far, if only to dispel the inaccurate negative impression that some people have about it. I am pleased that the Society has applied to the HRLB for some additional funding to help it to advertise stallions to mare owners as other Societies do in advance of the covering season.

(4) It is not all about horses having a competition record though. There are different potential sales markets for both pure and part bred Cleveland Bay horses such as the large leisure and pleasure riding and driving ones which should not be ignored as others have already said.
I would personally prefer to see geldings and part bred Cleveland Bay horses out competing than pure Cleveland Bay mares. I would also like to see their owners promoting them as part bred Cleveland Bay when they are out competing. If people see part bred Cleveland Bay horses being successful when out competing horses, as I believe that they can be against other breeds and types of horses based upon the success of the likes of Spring Pascal, Baydale Venus and Hawlmark Classic Twilight to name a few that should generate interest in the breed and in retaining pure Cleveland Bays in order to be able to breed more good quality part bred horses in the future.&#8221;

I went on to say to Harveysmomet al in my post on the 20-11-12 at 01:47 AM that:-

&#8220; I have argued for some time that at present geldings (both pure and part bred ones) and part bred horses should be used to promote the breed by getting them out in front of the wider equine community in a whole host of ways, including showing and competing them to what ever level the individual horse and it&#8217;s owner is competent to perform at or by taking part in various pleasure riding and driving activities that exist.

Obviously it is up to each horse owner to decide what they want to do with their horse. Not everyone has the facilities, resources or time required to breed from their horses. Equally not everyone wants to compete his or her horses either. &#8220;

My position accords with that of the Cleveland Bay Horse Society as expressed in it&#8217;s latest approved Cleveland Bay Strategy/Objectives document which is as follows:-. 

Strategy.

1.To encourage the breeding of Cleveland bay horses so that by 2018 the breed is no longer listed by the Rare Breeds Survival Trust in their highest risk category - critical&#8221;.
- Increase the number of filly foals registered to 30-35 a year from the current level of 27 through strategies 2-7.
- To support and encourage by financial assistance for purebred breeders.(2).

2.To create a worldwide demand for pure and part bred Cleveland Bay horses by promoting the versatility and potential of the breed.
- Set up a marketing role within the CBHS to actively target magazines, equestrian events and facilities to promote the breed.(4).
- Recognise performance excellence in the pure and part bred and provide a mechanism of support. (5).
- Create an effective website to promote and maintain interest in the breed. (1).

3.To preserve our native breed heritage, breed standard and the genetic health of the breed by encouraging the careful selection of mares and stallions.
- Arrange local workshops to explain what equates to good confirmation and breed standards for both mares and stallions and how Sparks and 8-generation bloodlines work.
- Devise mechanisms to bring together the best mares and stallions to continually improve the confirmation of the breed.

4. To maintain and publish a Society Stud book and maintain a separate Part Bred Register. -Maintain our Passport issuing Authority status through administrative excellence.

5.To appoint suitably qualified Judges, Inspectors and other official who act in the best interests of the breed at all times.
- Ensure a consistency of judges and inspectors through training workshops.
- Regularly review the Judges panel to ensure continued high standards.

6. To create a modern open society that communicates its strategy to its members so that it can recruit, retain and involve members in developing a progressive society that effectively supports the breed.
- Obtain regular and open feedback through the Internet, Bay Window, Annual Magazine and Council members. (6).
- Work with council members in an atmosphere of purpose and trust.
- Achieve 500 members by 2012. (7).

7.To develop effective partnerships with other relevant organizations in support of the strategies of the CBHS.
- Develop best practice from other societies that support the strategy.
- Identify sponsorship opportunities to benefit the society. (3).

8.To act at all times in accordance with the status of the CBHS as a registered Charity.
- Regularly assess the actions of the CBHS against Registered Charity rules for guidance.


----------



## texascbs (22 November 2012)

John Patrick

I hope the CBHS will achieve this goal, and I hope OS breeders will be included 
in the mix.   I know I am not a member, but I do support the CBHS' mission.
Yet I just can't plunk down 45 pounds plus conversion fees which is about $90 US to be a member when I see very little support and recognition (not just financial) for OS breeders.

Yet perhaps things will change.   The CBHSNA received a lovely letter wishing us the best at our 2012 AGM.  First letter we received from the CBHS in yeara.
That is a fantastic positive sign and much appreciated.


----------



## John Patrick (22 November 2012)

Texascbs, like you I also hope that the CBHS will achieve the outcomes for the Cleveland Bay breed that it has outlined in its Mission Statement and Cleveland Bay Strategy/Objectives document.

In order to achieve that situation it will require that all Cleveland Bay breeders and Society members work collectively together where ever they are located globally it is obviously has to include overseas breeders as well as UK based ones.

I am pleased to hear from you that  The CBHSNA received a lovely letter wishing us the best at our 2012 AGM. First letter we received from the CBHS in years. That is a fantastic positive sign and much appreciated.

I agree with what you said in your post on the 20-11-12 at 01:16 PM when you stated that:-  I believe we all must work together worldwide to get this breed back on its feet. We need more communication and marketing. When more people to see the purebred's qualities and a riding and driving horse and a breed to outcross for top sport horses, then breeders will produce more. The subsidies are good but only one piece as stated due to UK federal law limited to UK residents.

I also appreciate that as you said in your post on 18-11-12 at 01:42 PM that:- . it is thought at least 18% of the worldwide population resides and thrives  in North America.

I am mindful though that there were only14 overseas pure foals out of 65 registered with the Society in its Stud Book in 2007, 11 out of 57 in 2008,13 out of 54 in 2009, none out of 37 in 2010, 3 out of 36 in 2011 & only one or two out of around the twenty or so foals registered to date with the CBHS in 2012.

The other major breeding population outside of the UK / Europe and North America is in Australasia. Very few pure Cleveland Bay foals have been registered with Cleveland Bay Horse Society in its Stud Book by breeders based in Australasia in recent years. I am mindful that the CBHSA has its own Part Bred Register and that that some breeders based in Australasia may be tempted to register their horses in that instead of in the Societys main Stud Book. That will reduce the size of the recognized registered pure Cleveland Bay breeding global population in future years.

The CBHS is a DEFRA approved Stud Book holder for the Cleveland bay breed. It is the international Stud Book holder for the Cleveland Bay horse breed. As such all breeders based overseas are just as important to the CBHS as the ones that are based here in the UK.


----------



## texascbs (22 November 2012)

John Patrick

I believe there are more purebred foals born the past several years from OS that registered.  Our costs are much higher than UK breeders.  Costs the obvious like registration fees.  Yet OS breeders must pay veterinarians do fill out the marking sheets and pull hair as we don't have certified lay people authorized to mark the identification forms and pulling hairs.  We pay the entire fees for DNA and then must convert it to pounds and any foreign currency charges and send it all by international postage.  So one must really be committed to register as the cost is much more.

I am also a CBHS Australasia member where one can register your purebred in their book.  Yet the CBHSA always encourages members to register with the CBHS UK and have stallions licensed with the UK and provides quite a bit of information on their/our website on how to register in the UK.

The Society (UK) should also try to request folks not to keep saying their are only 500 world wide.  My guess is at least a 1,000.   I counted mares only on the CBHSNA census, and there are about 89.  If you double that roughly for the males, that is roughly 180 declared purebreds in North America.   If we only have 500 world wide, then OS pures  (NA, AU, NZ, Europe) is 40% of the total population.  That can not be correct.


----------



## John Patrick (22 November 2012)

Hello Texascbs.

I have taken the figures that I have quoted above concerning the number of pure Cleveland Bay foals that have been registered with the Cleveland Bay Horse Society in its Stud Book since 2007 to 2011 from the CBHS Stud Book Editor&#8217;s report that was presented to a Council Meeting and was also made available to the wider CBHS membership in an article published in a Cleveland Bay Magazine so they are accurate and include all of the overseas pure Cleveland Bay foals registered with the Society for those years.

I don&#8217;t think that there are any other overseas foals that have been registered with the CBHS but would be pleased to be proved wrong.  I am aware about a number of overseas pure Cleveland Bay foals in both North America and in Australasia that haven&#8217;t been registered so far with the CBHS in it&#8217;s Stud Book. 

Some of them may have been registered with the Cleveland Bay Horse Society Australasia given that it&#8217;s stated Mission is: - 

" To promote and preserve the pure and part bred Cleveland Bay horse, and to encourage and assist their showing, exhibition, 
and competition throughout Australasia.

To establish and maintain registers of horses and owners.  

To support breeders of Cleveland ay horses and to encourage and facilitate communication amongst 
members.  

To establish and maintain communication with like minded Cleveland Bay Horse Societies throughout the world and to 
further the interests of the CBHSA."

That contrasts with the Cleveland Bay Horse Society of North America Mission Statement, which is: -

&#8220; To promote the Cleveland Bay Horse, preserve it's heritage and ensure it's future. &#8220;

When I get a foal registered here in the UK I also have to pay for a vet to come out to fill out the horse identification chart, to pull some from its mane or tail to obtain a hair follicle to use for DNA testing to confirm the parentage of the foal before it is registered.

As a CBHS member I pay £20 to have a foal registered with the Society if I register it before the31st December in the year of the foals birth or within six months of the birth.  Thereafter it is £25. If I was a UK based non-CBHS member then I would be charged £60 if I registered the foal within the timescales outlined above and £70 for a late registration.

I pay £47.40 to have a DNA test carried out.

I agree with what you say above people incorrectly stating the wrong number of horses in the pure Cleveland Bay horse population. Indeed there have been examples of that happening in some of the posts on this thread. For example Rollin said on the 19-11-12 at 06:54 PM that  &#8220;We have 300 pure bred mares and this year they produced just 20 foals. There is no reason for them not to compete.&#8221;

Harveysmom saying on 20-11-12 at 12:03 AM followed that up: -

&#8220; Hello to all concerned, just to clarify it was JP who believes mares should focus on breeding [I agree if they are on mum duties]. You have quite rightly pointed out that with 300 mares out there and only 20 foals born every year, this does mean that 280 mares have no excuses and should compete if possible.&#8221; 

Harveysmom also posted on the 21-11-21 at 06:05 AM that:-

&#8220;To correct JP I was referring to the number of mares of breeding age not the number of members of the CBHS
If there are 300 mares of breeding age and we only get 20 foals a year what are the other 280 mares doing?
If demand was good enough I bet all 300 would be expecting, the point to this is I think we would struggle to sell 300 foals a year at present.&#8221;

The reality is that there are far less than the 300 breeding mares quoted.

I think that this error may have come about because the Rare Breeds Survival Trust maintains a Watch list of endangered breeds, in which Category 1 critical is the most endangered status. To be in this list a breed has to have fewer then 300 breeding females. To assess this the RBST take a &#8220;breeding female&#8221; to be one who has produced a registered foal. To calculates the number of adult breeding females for the Watch List the RBST uses the number of female registrations averaged over the last three full years and applies a multiplier derived from the average generation intervals across a number of domestic horse breeds (6.67) to give an estimate of the number of adult breeding females. 

Dr Andrew Dell&#8217;s research shows that the average generational interval for the Cleveland Bay breed is 10 and not 6.67 years, which might therefore be a more appropriate multiplier.

However, using data provided by the CBHS in late 2009 for the 2010 RBST Watchlist the RBST calculation gives an average of 24 female registrations per year over 2006-2008, to which the multiplier of 6.67 is applied, resulting in an estimation of 162 breeding females. This figure indicates that a doubling of the breeding stock would be needed for the breed to be &#8220;downgraded&#8221; from its present &#8221;Critical&#8221; status.
Dr Andrew Dells research also highlights that the majority of breeding females only have one registered pure foal in their lifetime. The estimated number of breeding females may have changed from the last published figure of 162 breeding females based on the number of foal registrations from 2009 onwards but it will have fallen and not risen to anywhere near the 300 figure quoted by some people on this thread.


----------



## texascbs (22 November 2012)

John Patrick

Registration is a multi faceted issue.  Yes you pay near what the rest of us do OS, but with the UK government subsidies a realistic comparison is impossible.     This debate can go on forever, but what we have isn't working the best.  So perhaps trying to think of something else to get OS breeders to register might help.

Plus there is the exchange rate to consider.  As we all know it is forever changing and sometimes can be brutal depending on each country's economy at the time.

I can easily understand why the CBHSA have their own studbook, and I support it.  As long as they share their purebred information with the main studbook, more power to them.  They are well organized, they list up to date pure and sport horse stallion contact information on their website, they have an online census available to the public for several years, they have a healthy Performance Awards program, and despite vastness of the Australian continent they manage drive many hours each way to show and exhibit CBs, and they rarely ever write anything negative about the CBHS on public forums


----------



## John Patrick (23 November 2012)

Hello Texascbs.

I appreciate that every organization, including the CBHS, the CBHSA and the CBHSNA has strengths and weaknesses, can do more than it presently does in the eyes of some people to please them, has a history of doing both good and less positive things, and because of that has both fans and also some people who don&#8217;t like what it has done or it&#8217;s policy decisions.

I am not sure what you are personally proposing that the CBHS should do now to encourage more overseas 
breeders and horse owners like yourself to join it instead of or as well as joining the other non affiliated Cleveland Bay Societies such as the CBHSNA that you are a Board of Directors member of or the CBHSA that has set up it&#8217;s own rival stud book to that of the long standing internationally recognized CBHS Cleveland Bay breed Stud Book? You say above that &#8220;This debate can go on forever, but what we have isn't working the best. So perhaps trying to think of something else to get OS breeders to register might help.&#8221; Perhaps you can explain what you are proposing?

I am mindful that the CBHSNA and the CBHSA are not affiliated in anyway to the CBHS and are perhaps "rival" organizations with their own regional agendas that differ on occasions to that of the CBHS that will want people to join them rather than to join the CBHS. I accept that there has been and I hope will continue to be a long history of the three organizations working closely with each other to preserve and promote the Cleveland Bay horse to the wider equine community but also recognize that each organization will have members that gravitate towards it and are loyal to it and not to the other &#8220;rival&#8221; ones.

There are also other factors that come into play here to explain why some overseas people might be reluctant to join the CBHS such as the fact that in North America and in Australasia, unlike here in the UK and in Europe there is not or a statutory requirement to obtain a horse passport or for horses to be registered with any organization other than with some of the competition bodies to be able to take part in their various equine events. That might explain why less North American people are keen to pay to register their horses with the CBHS and why some people in Australasia prefer to join the CBHSA instead because they have to do so and to register their horses with it in order to be able to take part in some of the shows that it hosts? I can understands that perhaps some people who live in Australasia would not want to pay to register their Cleveland Bay horses with the CBHS despite the fact that it is internationally recognized Society Stud Book holder for the Cleveland Bay breed when they would then also have to pay to register them in the CBHSA register as well to be able to take part in it&#8217;s shows and other events. That might encourage them to register their horses with the CBHSA in its Part Bred Register instead of with the CBHS in its Stud Book. If the CBHSA did not operate in that way then perhaps more Australasian based people would join and register their horses with the CBHS.

If people in both North America and in Australasia continue to join and register their horses with a "rival" organization or just don&#8217;t register their horses with the CBHS then the Cleveland Bay horse will be the looser in the long term because the number of internationally recognized pure Cleveland Bay horses entered into the Cleveland Bay breed's Stud Book will reduce and it will become even more fragmented than it is at present into the three separate breeding populations, one here in the UK / ERurope, one in North America and one in Australasia with little or no exchange of genetics between them.

If horses are entered into different stud books  over time they will each develop their own entry requirements that will differ more and more from each other with the result that fewer horses based abroad will meet the eligibility conditions to be put into the CBHS internationally recognized Cleveland Bay breed Stud Book. 

I would contend that the CBHS Stud Book should be the one of choice that all Cleveland Bay horse breeders enter their horses into because it is the long standing internationally recognized Stud Book for the Cleveland Bay horse breed and as such sets and maintains the entry requirements that defines what a pure Cleveland Bay horses is on a global basis just as other such internationally recognized breed societies that are the Stud Book holder for their particular breed do on behalf of that breed.

I would prefer that people would put their efforts and resources into working positively together as equals to preserve and promote pure and part bred Cleveland Bay horse on a global scale. The breed population isn&#8217;t big enough to be fragmented in any other way if it is going to be maintained as a healthy breeding population if people seriously want to be able to retain it as a distinct breed of horse.


----------



## texascbs (23 November 2012)

John Patrick

Please remember we both come from totally different worlds and backgrounds.   We had different experiences with the breed and Societies.

We both support the Breed and want it to thrive.  The CBHSA supports the CBHS and many of its members double register with both organizations.  I feel the CBHSA system seems to be working for them, and they work with the CBHS.

As you have seen from my many previous threads, I support registration by breeders and that registration is maintained through transfers.  I have spent hundreds of hours and my own money to help OS owners and breeders register horses with the CBHS.    You sometimes seem to make it sound like it is the CBHS or nothing.   I was the Chair for the 2011 CBHSNA Annual meeting in early November 2011 and helped arrange the site location for a CBHS QA and US style premium mare inspection.  The owners received notification whether their horses passed or failed in Early May 2012:  Six months later.

I still support the CBHS, but making owners wait that long for results sure does tests one's loyalty.

The OS breeders and owners are doing their best based on the hand we are dealt.   Rollin has been waiting years for the CBHS on her issues.   

I am writing on this thread as an individual.   When I participate as a board member, I end posts by directing reading the the CBHSNA and their official address.  

If readers believe a board/Council/Committee member may not participate
on forums as an individual I had better stick to general horse subjects only.

Happy Weekend


----------



## John Patrick (23 November 2012)

Hello Texascbs,

First, I have absolutely no problem what so ever with either yourself or any other Board / Council / Committee member participating on this or on any other forum either as an individual or as a representative of their organization. Indeed I wish that 
more people in these roles would participate much more than some of them do now because we would at least know where they stand on important issues concerning the breed that are being discussed on the forums and would also know from the   &#8220;horses mouth&#8221; so to speak what each of the organizations stance on these matters was as well. 

You say that you &#8220; feel the CBHSA system seems to be working for them, and they work with the CBHS.&#8221; That might be the case but when so few pure Cleveland Bay foals are being registered with the CBHS at present bearing in mind that it is the internationally recognized Stud Book holder for the Cleveland Bay horse breed globally and you say yourself in your post above that&#8221; I can easily understand why the CBHSA have their own studbook, and I support it&#8221; then something must be wrong?

I am aware from our previous conversations that you have spent hours of your time personally assisted people to register their horses with the CBHS. I would have hoped that you would also support the CBHS in it&#8217;s efforts to maintain the Cleveland Bay Horse Society Stud Book as the Stud Book of choice for all serious Cleveland Bay breeders to register their horses in by encouraging both the CBHSA Committee and individual Australasian breeders to register their horses in it and not in a potentially &#8220;rival&#8221; Australasia one that could un intentionally dilute the pure Cleveland Bay horse population further than it need to be or can stand.

I am aware that you also know that I have said on numerous occasions that all is not right with the CBHS so I have not come on here to defend all of it&#8217;s past actions but I am concerned that the pure Cleveland Bay breed needs all of the support that it can get if it is to prosper and I feel that is more likely to be obtained if we all work together as equals around the same table rather than as potentially "rival" organizations around separate tables. 

For example I think that the decision that the  organizations took a few years ago to remove the rightsthat existed then for representatives from each of the organization to have a seat on the other organizations Council / Board / Committee was a retrograde one that should be over turned.

I have supported the introduction of issues such as the use of postal and proxy voting in the CBHS so that overseas members and UK based ones who can&#8217;t attend Annual General Meetings have a right to have their view heard when votes are counted.

I have also attempted to assist Rollin as far as I have been able when I have been in a position to do so to get her issue resolved as she can testify. 

I remain of the opinion that the divided way that the breed is presently structured on a global scale may have emerged for good reasons in each part of the world but that doesn&#8217;t mean that it is the best option now to move the breed forward.

Again I have not and am not claiming that the CBHS has been right in everything that it has done but if people like yourself who are committed to the breed remain outside of it instead helping to change it from inside I think that we will all achieve far less for the breed than we all could if we all got around the same table to shared our experience, knowledge and resources. 

Happy Thanksgiving.


----------



## texascbs (23 November 2012)

John Patrick

You know that at least two CBHSNA board members fought hard against the proposal to exclude OS members from the board.  The proposal was sent to the membership where it passed by majority but it was not unanimous.   OS members may be on most CBHSNA committees, and OS members may participate in ALL performance awards and programs.  In fact, a OS member from the UK won several performance awards a few years ago.

I am sorry some feel the CBHSA registry is a "rival" to the CBHS stud book. I do not.  If I lived in Australasia, I would register with both.  I may not register immediately if the exchange rate seemed high at the time, but I would before the foal reaches breeding age.

Let's move forward on positive aspects of working together and promoting the breed from what we all can do from what resources we have.


----------



## Talkingshell (24 November 2012)

I've just joined to check out what was it all about, but will read the whole lot after I get back in after riding my Cleveland Bay Sporthorse gelding.  

I'm from Australia.


----------



## Talkingshell (24 November 2012)

I have read the whole lot - all I can say is that please, please...try to find a unite way forward for the breed.  This breed can't afford to let it die out.


----------



## John Patrick (24 November 2012)

Hello Texascbs.

I am a member of the CBHS.

I am aware that you are not a member of the CBHS but that you are a member of both the CBHSNA and of the CBHSA.  

I think that I am correct in saying that Talkingshell is a Committee member of the CBHSA.

The Cleveland Bay Horse Society was founded in 1884.  Its Memorandum and Article of Association state that: - 

 The Objects for which the Society is established are to preserve and improve the standard of horses in general and of the Cleveland Bay Horse in particular by improving the standard of breeding of Cleveland Bay Horses and by promoting the introduction of Cleveland Bay blood into horse breeding. 

 They go onto say: -

  In furtherance of these objects but not further or otherwise the Society shall have the following powers: -.  3(b) To compile and publish a Stud Book for such Horses and a Register of Part Bred Horses and to acquire the copyright of any such Stud Book, or of any pedigrees already published, or of any such Register. 

I respect that fact that the CBHSNA that was founded in 1885 has not set up its own Stud Book of Register unlike the CBHSA which has been established more recently.

The Cleveland Bay Horse Society is a Defra approved Stud Book holder for the Cleveland Bay breed. It is internationally recognized as such. For example if you go onto the website www.ueln.net you will see that it is intended for all the official organisations concerned by horse registration, breeding and sport. It presents the result of international meetings between the most important international organizations, which work on improving the communication between horse registers. The CBHS is listed on it as the Breed Society that is responsible for registering Cleveland Bay horses. 

I have looked at how other Defra approved Passport Issuing Organizations here in the UK deal with the situation when a person who approaches them to issue their with a passport when it is clear from the foals pedigree that its parents have already been registered as a pedigree horse or pony by the recognized Society for that breed that is also approved by Defra as a Passport Issuing Organization.

I cite for example the British Miniature Horse Society, which has issued the following guidance: -

DEFRA Regulations for the issue of Equine Passports
Any Passport Issuing Authority (PIA) can issue a passport for any horse, but by agreement with DEFRA, PIAs should ensure that, if a horse is eligible for inclusion in a Stud Book then the application is directed to the relevant PIA. For example, if we receive an application for a horse that has two Shetland registered parents then it is our duty to direct this application to the Shetland Pony Stud Book Society. Only they can verify the breeding, and so put sire and dam details onto the passport. We cannot include breeding details unless they have been proven to us to DEFRA minimum standards, which are:

SIRES BREEDING REPORT NAMES THE DAM AND IS SUBMITTED TO THE SOCIETY IN ACCORDANCE WITH ITS REGULATIONS  OTHERWISE BY DNA TESTING

DAM IS IDENTIFIED WITH THE FOAL AT FOOT BY A VET OR COMPETENT PERSON WITHIN SIX MONTHS OF BIRTH  OTHERWISE BY DNA TESTING

SUBMITTING FALSE INFORMATION TO A PASSPORT ISSUING AUTHORITY IS AN OFFENCE, AND ANY P.I.A. THAT INCLUDES FALSE INFORMATION ON A PASSPORT IS ALSO COMMITTING AN OFFENCE
.......................................................................
DEFRA regulations for Registration onto a Stud Book
If both the sire and dam of a horse are registered on a Stud Book, then it is automatically eligible for registration onto that Stud Book. The requirements for proof of breeding are the same as for a passport, as above. We cannot accept proof of breeding from another society unless that society has a DEFRA approved Stud Book.  

Texascbs you say above: -

 I am sorry some feel the CBHSA registry is a "rival" to the CBHS stud book. I do not. If I lived in Australasia, I would register with both. I may not register immediately if the exchange rate seemed high at the time, but I would before the foal reaches breeding age.

I have use the term rival in my earlier posts to mean that by establishing its own Stud Book / Part Bred Register in the full knowledge that the CBHS was already recognized as the international Stud Book holder for the Cleveland Bay horse breed that sets and maintains the eligibility conditions for horses to be registered as such that the CBHSA has created a situation where some people will choose to register their horses in its Stud Book instead of in the CBHS Stud Book. They are therefore competing with each other for people to register their horses in their respective Stud Books.

I mentioned earlier t how the RBST Watchlist is complied and in particular that it only included horses that are registered by the approved breed Society, in this case with the CBHS in its Stud Book. That Watchlist system is an internationally recognized and used one. If horses are registered in the CBHSA Stud Book and not in the CBHS Stud Book as pedigree Cleveland bay horses then they will not be counted in that internationally used Watchlist as pure Cleveland Bay horses.

If separate Stud Books/ Registers are set up that over time establish their own entry requirements that differ from the breeds approved Stud Book holders eligibility requirements then there will be less recognized pure Cleveland bay horses around on a global basis.

Talking shell you say: -

I have read the whole lot - all I can say is that please, please...try to find a unite way forward for the breed. This breed can't afford to let it die out.

I agree with you. There is a way forward for the breed and that is for all people to get behind the CBHS and ensure that all Cleveland Bay horses are registered with it and entered into its Stud Book. I accept that horses CBHS passports could then be over stamped by other organizations if that was required to compete them in events that they put on.


----------



## Talkingshell (24 November 2012)

John Patrick said:



			I think that I am correct in saying that Talkingshell is a Committee member of the CBHSA.
		
Click to expand...

No...I aren't a Committee member of the CBHSA and haven't been for few years.  However my horse is registered with CBHSA but I am not member.



John Patrick said:



			Talking shell you say: -

I have read the whole lot - all I can say is that please, please...try to find a unite way forward for the breed. This breed can't afford to let it die out.

I agree with you. There is a way forward for the breed and that is for all people to get behind the CBHS and ensure that all Cleveland Bay horses are registered with it and entered into its Stud Book. I accept that horses CBHS passports could then be over stamped by other organizations if that was required to compete them in events that they put on.
		
Click to expand...

Glad to know you feel the same.  Agreed with, I think it's most important for any of the Societies to be Pro-active and support it's members, give what the members want.  That's where the $$$ and support comes in to PROMOTE the CB's.  If you don't have that, then the Societies will get NOTHING out of it.  Then the members will be disgruntled in wondering what their membership, etc goes in for.  All this going on's are happening within the Cleveland Bay world today I believe.   So we need to get behind and find a one unite for this breed and fly the CB flag any where in the World today.


----------



## texascbs (24 November 2012)

John Patrick

I was a CBHS, CBHSNA, and CBHSA member at the same time for 10 years.

No organization is perfect and each has their internal issues they struggle with over the years.

Am aware of all the rules, regulations and polices posted.

If our goal help the breed thrive in the future, we must work together in a positive fashion and be inclusive to all worldwide equally.

I am off to road hounds with my CBHS registered purebred mare and stay and help with kennel chores.  Hope everyone has good weather and health and can get out and spend time whether it be a good brush, a hack, a show, or a hunt with with your pure or partbred CB.


----------



## John Patrick (24 November 2012)

Hello Talkingshell,

You say:-

" So we need to get behind and find a one unite for this breed and fly the CB flag any where in the World today."

Again I agree which is why I have said above that all Cleveland Bay breeders should get behind the CBHS and register their horses in it's Stud Book given that it is the internationally recognised Stud Book holder for the breed.

The CBHSNA have not  thought it necessary for them to have to set up a rival Stud book so I don't know why it is necessary for the CBHSA to have done so inorder for people to " fly the CB flag anywhere in the World today".

There are far too few pure Cleveland Bay horses  in the world today for it to be framgented up in this way. It needs all of them entered into the same Stud Book that is maintained by the recognised Breed Society under the same set of eligibility rules if the breed is going to be able to be preserved as a distinct one going forward.

Have you considered registering your horses with the CBHS and would you have done that already if the CBHSA didn't have its own Stud Book / Register for you to place them in instead?


----------



## Talkingshell (24 November 2012)

John Patrick said:



			Again I agree which is why I have said above that all Cleveland Bay breeders should get behind the CBHS and register their horses in it's Stud Book given that it is the internationally recognised Stud Book holder for the breed.

The CBHSNA have not thought it necessary for them to have to set up a rival Stud book so I don't know why it is necessary for the CBHSA to have done so in order for people to "fly the CB flag anywhere in the World today".

There are far too few pure Cleveland Bay horses  in the world today for it to be framgented up in this way. It needs all of them entered into the same Stud Book that is maintained by the recognised Breed Society under the same set of eligibility rules if the breed is going to be able to be preserved as a distinct one going forward.

Have you considered registering your horses with the CBHS and would you have done that already if the CBHSA didn't have its own Stud Book / Register for you to place them in instead?
		
Click to expand...

I can't say for the CBHSA, as this is in my own words and thoughts on the Cleveland Bays.  And yes there are far few Purebreds, I've watched and it seems that purebred foals don't survive hence the reason for the decline?  I don't know but this is the way I see it.  I am not a breeder or have Purebreds.  Well if CBHSA didn't have its own Stud Book/Register for me...my breeder would have referred me possibly to CBHS.  But I don't have the need for it because my horse isn't pure but classed as CB Sporthorse being only 1/4 CB and the rest is Thoroughbred.  Even I have another 50% CBx mare which we have on lease for my daughter to ride.

And YES I do agree with you - "Purebreds needs to be entered into the same Stud Book that is maintained by the recognised Breed Society under the same set of eligibility rules if the breed is going to be able to be preserved as a distinct one going forward" <----- 100% agree on this one!


----------



## John Patrick (24 November 2012)

Hello Talkingshell.

I am pleased that you say that:-

"  "Purebreds needs to be entered into the same Stud Book that is maintained by the recognised Breed Society under the same set of eligibility rules if the breed is going to be able to be preserved as a distinct one going forward" <----- 100% agree on this one! "

I don't understand your comment though that pure bred foals don't survive and that is the reason for their decline. My experience so far in breeding pure Cleveland Bay horses is that the foals are as healthy as any other breed and do survive. The reasons why there are few pure Cleveland Bay horses on the ground at present are coplex but are not explained by the reason that you have suggested. Dr Andrew Dell's research report gives a good account of the reasons for their deline.

I wish you well with your horses and hope that you do decide at some point in the future to venture into the very enjoyable world of breeding pure Cleveland Bay horses.


----------



## harveysmom (24 November 2012)

Dear JP
Having red the comments from Texascbs and Talking shell i feel they totally support the cleveland bay and would love to see it thrive

I believe all this nit picking on detail isnt helpful, if breeders in the USA and Australia are breeding cleveland bays thats fantastic news for the cleveland bay, it has already been said that their societies are working with the CBHS. Im sure they are aware of the breed standards so let them run their own studbooks they are all cleveland bays at the end of the day.
You may not realise that you come across as its the CBHS or nothing, you talk about working together but dont come over as flexible

The only difference this makes to the CB is its more difficult to keep figures accurate 
please dont put people off breeding clevelands by making it more expensive
By the time youve paid stud fees,vets fees and day to day care of the mare and foal there isnt much left 
who is to say the CBHS is the be all and end all for clevelands, keep it simple lets work together


----------



## Talkingshell (24 November 2012)

harveysmom said:



			Dear JP
Having red the comments from Texascbs and Talking shell i feel they totally support the cleveland bay and would love to see it thrive

I believe all this nit picking on detail isnt helpful, if breeders in the USA and Australia are breeding cleveland bays thats fantastic news for the cleveland bay, it has already been said that their societies are working with the CBHS. Im sure they are aware of the breed standards so let them run their own studbooks they are all cleveland bays at the end of the day.
You may not realise that you come across as its the CBHS or nothing, you talk about working together but dont come over as flexible

The only difference this makes to the CB is its more difficult to keep figures accurate 
please dont put people off breeding clevelands by making it more expensive
By the time youve paid stud fees,vets fees and day to day care of the mare and foal there isnt much left 
who is to say the CBHS is the be all and end all for clevelands, keep it simple lets work together
		
Click to expand...

Ditto harveysmom, 100% wholeheartly agree...yes let's keep it simple work together to make this Cleveland Bay beautiful!



John Patrick said:



			Hello Talkingshell.

I don't understand your comment though that pure bred foals don't survive and that is the reason for their decline. My experience so far in breeding pure Cleveland Bay horses is that the foals are as healthy as any other breed and do survive. The reasons why there are few pure Cleveland Bay horses on the ground at present are coplex but are not explained by the reason that you have suggested. Dr Andrew Dell's research report gives a good account of the reasons for their deline.

I wish you well with your horses and hope that you do decide at some point in the future to venture into the very enjoyable world of breeding pure Cleveland Bay horses.
		
Click to expand...

Here in Australia...I have heard many have born weak, sick or born dead..may not be just pures but part bred too.  Seeing it may not be just the Cleveland Bays but other breeds too. Only few have survived as a purebreds in Australia and even in New Zealand, it's very hard to breed a pure foal.  When we heard amongst the Cleveland Bay people and hoped for the best there is a purebred foal on the ground alive and well...then we are all over the moon to keep this breed ALIVE!
No, not in the position to venture into pure CB's, simply because I cannot afford it and I aren't getting any younger being few years off 50.  I just rather to enjoy my 25% CB Sporthorse and hope to one day achieve to Grand Prix dressage with him.  And enjoy watching my daughter growing her love for her 50% leased mare to enjoy.  And keeping the Cleveland Bays in our family.


----------



## John Patrick (25 November 2012)

Harveysmom I am not nit picking . My comment about the CBHS being the internationally recognized Stud Book holder for the Cleveland Bay breed is a matter of some substance and should not be dismissed as you have attempted to do. I dont know if you are a member of the CBHS but if you are then you should be getting behind me to support it as legitimate Stud Book holder for the breed so that it can continue to work to preserve all pure Cleveland Bay horses on a global basis. Talking shell said in her earlier post that she agreed with me about that but based upon what she has said in support of your last post she has now apparently changed her mind?

The population of pure Cleveland horses is a small one and as the likes of Dr Andrew Dell and other respected commentators have said, it needs to be managed by the CBHS, the approved Stud Book holder for the breed under the same set of rules as one population if it is to thrive and not split up into smaller ones that will become more and more fragmented and different to each other over time.

The CBHSNA dont have a Stud Book and as far as I am aware dont have any plans to set one up. They encourage North American Cleveland Bay breeders to register their pure Cleveland Bay horses with the CBHS in it Stud Book. As I have said in my earlier posts they are working with the to preserve the Cleveland Bay breed.

That is in sharp contrast with the CBHSA that has set up a rival  Stud Book/ Register and Cleveland Bay breeders in Australasia are registering their pure and part bred Cleveland Bay horses in that instead of with the CBHS. That can be seen by the fact that very few pure Cleveland Bay horses that have been born in Australasia in recent years have been registered in the CBHS Stud Book.

Whilst I accept that it is good news that people are breeding Cleveland Bay horses I would also point out that if they are not registered with the CBHS in the internationally recognized breed Stud Book that they are not regarded as pure Cleveland Bay horses until they are registered in it. That is not good news and could be easily avoided by breeders registering them in the breed Stud Book. The progeny of these unregistered horses will not be eligible to be entered into the CBHS Stud Book as pure Cleveland Bay horses and that situation could be easily avoided no by their breeders registering their pure Cleveland Bay horses in the CBHS Stud Book.

You say that: -

 The only difference this makes to the CB is its more difficult to keep figures accurate. That is not so. It is simple to count up the small number of pure Cleveland Bay horses that are born each year. The real issue is that if these horses are not registered with the CBHS in its Stud Book they will effectively be lost to the pure breed Cleveland Bay breeding population in the future. Every breed Society Stud Book that you care to think about has a set of rules and regulations that govern the eligibility of horses to be entered into it. The CBHS is no different from any of the other Stud Books in that respect. If Cleveland Bay horses in Australasia are governed under a different set of rules and regulations to the ones in the CBHS Stud Book how does that benefit the pure Cleveland Bay breed?

Talkingshell, as I have already said if you seriously want to work together with the CBHS and not in opposition to it then dont set up a rival Stud Book in Australasia   for breeders to register the Cleveland Bay horses in but instead register them in the Cleveland Bay breed approved Stud Book that is managed by the CBHS.  

Do you think that any other breed society would or should sit back and ignore the fact that another one has set up a rival arrangement to it for people to buy into instead of its one or to think that by setting up such a system in opposition to it   that they would hold the view that such an action demonstrates that the second organisation was seriously seeking to it or to work positively with it?

Can you imagine any company in Australasia or elsewhere for that matter sitting back and saying or doing nothing if another company started to sell a product that was the same or similar to theirs? I dont.

Talkingshell you say that: -

 Here in Australia...I have heard many have born weak, sick or born dead..may not be just pures but part bred too. Seeing it may not be just the Cleveland Bays but other breeds too. Only few have survived as a purebreds in Australia and even in New Zealand, it's very hard to breed a pure foal. When we heard amongst the Cleveland Bay people and hoped for the best there is a purebred foal on the ground alive and well...then we are all over the moon to keep this breed ALIVE!

There are not many pure Cleveland Bay horses in Australasia. Most of the Cleveland Bay horses there are part bred Cleveland Bay horses.

I have looked at the CBHSA website and individual breeders websites for some years now and have not noticed any posts on them about the problems that you state happen.

They dont appear to happen here with the Cleveland Bay breed in the UK so I wonder if this is a management issue rather than a breed problem?  I have certainly had no such problems breeding pure Cleveland bay horse and neither have other longstanding Cleveland Bay breeders that I have asked here that I have talked to about your observations.


----------



## Talkingshell (25 November 2012)

John Patrick said:



			Talking shell said in her earlier post that she agreed with me about that but based upon what she has said in support of your last post she has now apparently changed her mind?
		
Click to expand...

No I did not change my mind, as I simply just agreed with what I read.  I am trying to be one united to everyone who clearly love and show support for the Cleveland Bay breed, not disagree to everything!  If I don't think it's right I would try and make it right or understand more.  By the way I suppose no one here knew I'm totally deaf (hearing impairment).  So I don't talk the way hearing people do or write the way for e.g. you...you write more depth than me.  I just skip reading as too hard for me to understand.




John Patrick said:



			That is in sharp contrast with the CBHSA that has set up a rival  Stud Book/ Register and Cleveland Bay breeders in Australasia are registering their pure and part bred Cleveland Bay horses in that instead of with the CBHS. That can be seen by the fact that very few pure Cleveland Bay horses that have been born in Australasia in recent years have been registered in the CBHS Stud Book.

Talkingshell, as I have already said if you seriously want to work together with the CBHS and not in opposition to it then dont set up a rival Stud Book in Australasia for breeders to register the Cleveland Bay horses in but instead register them in the Cleveland Bay breed approved Stud Book that is managed by the CBHS.
		
Click to expand...

You need to speak someone in the CBHSA to question why, as I don't know much about it but I vaguely remember that it was being discussed between CBHSA & CBHS and it was 'ok' to have one here...but don't quote me on this one, may not be right.  



John Patrick said:



			There are not many pure Cleveland Bay horses in Australasia. Most of the Cleveland Bay horses there are part bred Cleveland Bay horses.

I have looked at the CBHSA website and individual breeders websites for some years now and have not noticed any posts on them about the problems that you state happen.

They dont appear to happen here with the Cleveland Bay breed in the UK so I wonder if this is a management issue rather than a breed problem?  I have certainly had no such problems breeding pure Cleveland bay horse and neither have other longstanding Cleveland Bay breeders that I have asked here that I have talked to about your observations.
		
Click to expand...

Yes your correct that there aren't as many pure CB horses in Australasia and yes your right most are part bred (Sporthorses) CB horses, hell a lot more than Purebreds here.

And no one will state their disappointment on PUBLIC sites or by any means, as they would rather to keep it quiet.  And start all over again in hoping for and to get the Purebreds to grow in numbers successfully.

By the way I do advocate Cleveland Bays as I have worked as CBHSA newsletter editor lady for good few years. Now I've started up a new newsletter just for Queensland state (nothing to do with CBHSA) with Cleveland Bay owners and am trying to get this word out there and support the breed.


----------



## Rollin (25 November 2012)

I have been off this debate for a few days.  We are thrilled to announce that 3 year old pure bred filly Highpasture Hattie arrived here on Thursday morning after a very tiring journey.  She is now settled with two new friends one of which is our 3 year old filly Little Dorrit.  That brings us to five pure bred and one part bred mares/fillies.  I would have posted some photos on the Breeding forum but am having loads of trouble with Photobucket.

Welcome to the debate 'Shell'  I think you have a stunning filly called Miss Independence?  It would be lovely to see some more photos on this forum if I have got it right.  I was interested in one of your comments.

"I can't say for the CBHSA, as this is in my own words and thoughts on the Cleveland Bays. And yes there are far few Purebreds, I've watched and it seems that purebred foals don't survive hence the reason for the decline?"

Do you know how how many foals are lost?  In Australia do you conduct an audit?  My problem with letters I received from protagonists of proposed changes to the grading register did not have any empirical data to support their reasons for change. 

We lost a foal two years ago.  Dam put in foal during first covering, she is always easy, blooming throughout pregnancy, easy foaling of a huge colt.  He would not stand or suckle and had fluid in his lungs.  Vets opinion, was without a doubt she had contracted a virus in late pregnancy, in spite of being vaccinated.  Had I had a Shagya mare i/f at the same time no doubt we would have had the same result - not breed related.

The UK has closed its National Equine Database.  France has one called SIRE, which is superb.  All coverings are recorded on line; live births must be notified within 15 day; maternal deaths notified to the Department of Zoo technics.

CBHS is not in a position to even measure fertility rates for the breed.  We do not collect robust data for the UK let alone worldwide basis.

My own opinion remains unchanged.  We are not smart enough in conveying the benefits of owning a Cleveland Bay.

My husband in the UK collecting Hattie, was buying up Robinsons, and got chatting to the staff, TWO told him they had owned Cleveland Bays in the past both said, "The best horse I have ever owned."  He stopped to let riders pass on a narrow lane in Kent, riders asked about his French plate and he told them he was taking a Cleveland Bay to France.  One piped up "I had a Cleveland Bay once it was the best horse I ever owned".


----------



## Welly (25 November 2012)

Well done Rollin what a lovely filly you have in Hattie. I loved the look of Woodman You don't know what happened to him do you, I was told he went for a silly price at the sales.


----------



## John Patrick (25 November 2012)

Hello Talkingshell.

You said in your post above: -

&#8220;No I did not change my mind, as I simply just agreed with what I read. I am trying to be one united to everyone who clearly love and show support for the Cleveland Bay breed, not disagree to everything! If I don't think it's right I would try and make it right or understand more.&#8221; 

You also said: -

&#8220;By the way I do advocate Cleveland Bays as I have worked as CBHSA newsletter editor lady for good few years. Now I've started up a new newsletter just for Queensland state (nothing to do with CBHSA) with Cleveland Bay owners and am trying to get this word out there and support the breed.&#8221;

You come across to me to be quite an articulate person who thinks about what they say before you put it down in print. I am sure that you will have had to have that skill to function as the editor of the CBHSA newsletter for as long as you say that you did and to do that it now for the Queensland state Cleveland Bay community.

You said in your post yesterday on 24-11-12 at 01:28PM in reply to one that I had put on the forum: -

&#8220;And YES I do agree with you - "Purebreds needs to be entered into the same Stud Book that is maintained by the recognised Breed Society under the same set of eligibility rules if the breed is going to be able to be preserved as a distinct one going forward" <----- 100% agree on this one!&#8221;

You then said in your next post on 24-11-12 at 10:42PM in support of Harveysmom post when she said to me: -

 &#8220; I believe all this nit picking on detail isn&#8217;t helpful, if breeders in the USA and Australia are breeding cleveland bays thats fantastic news for the cleveland bay, it has already been said that their societies are working with the CBHS. Im sure they are aware of the breed standards so let them run their own studbooks they are all cleveland bays at the end of the day.
You may not realise that you come across as its the CBHS or nothing, you talk about working together but dont come over as flexible&#8221;

 &#8220;Ditto harveysmom, 100% wholeheartly agree...yes let's keep it simple work together to make this Cleveland Bay beautiful! &#8220;

That is why I said in my post that: -

&#8220;Talkingshell said in her earlier post that she agreed with me about that but based upon what she has said in support of your last post she has now apparently changed her mind?&#8221;

In reply to your other comments the CBHS encourages Cleveland Bay breeders (wherever they are based  to register their Cleveland Bay horses in it&#8217;s Stud Book rather than in another organisation's one so that the population of pure Cleveland Bay horses is maintained in the internationally recognised breed registry under the same set of entry rules and regulations.

You said in your last post today, 5-11-12 at 01:42 AM when I asked you why there is no evidence on the CBHSA website or on Australasian breeders individual websites to support your claim that &#8220;Here in Australia...I have heard many have born weak, sick or born dead..may not be just pures but part bred too. Seeing it may not be just the Cleveland Bays but other breeds too. Only few have survived as a purebreds in Australia and even in New Zealand, it's very hard to breed a pure foal.&#8221; that: -

&#8220;And no one will state their disappointment on PUBLIC sites or by any means, as they would rather to keep it quiet. And start all over again in hoping for and to get the Purebreds to grow in numbers successfully.&#8221;

Similar claims were made here in the UK by advocates of the grade register changes but when people like myself and Rollin asked them to provide evidence to support those claims they could not do so. Indeed a number of breeders came out to state that they had never experienced any such problems with their horses over many years of breeding both pure and part bred Cleveland Bays.

It does no good for the Cleveland Bay breed&#8217;s good reputation if people keep on making such ill founded claims without first having the evidence to back them up.


----------



## harveysmom (25 November 2012)

Dear JP, I am a member of CBHS and as such recognise that the society is the internationally recognised breed society

However, just as an example  the americans and the austalians have their own governments do you believe the british government should be telling them how to run their countries as once upon a time they where under british rule, i dont think so, and i do wish you would stop using the term rival they are on our side trying to help the cleveland bay.
THEIR breed societies are co-operating with ours what is your problem
being entered in their studbook should be as good as ours,and to make sure we all sing from the same hymm book there should a policy in place which allow council members to take part in eachothers meetings, i repeat that they are aware of the breed standards, quite a few of our pure stallions are exported to the USA so i believe they are keeping their gene pool healthy with new blood and introducing horses that conform to CBHS rules and standards which ultimatly means they are not drifting away changing the breed, we could do with importing some of their stock to mingle with ours
that would be a close match and not introducing outside blood it would be pure cleveland

Be careful not to become a control freak you will drive people away


----------



## harveysmom (25 November 2012)

Dear Rollin,
congratulations on your new filly i hope she does you well

Looks like you get the same response from people that i do when you mention cleveland bays " i used to own/ride one " the trouble with that is it is past tense we need the " i am looking to buy one do you know of one "  or better still  "ive got one"
I do agree with you, it does seem to be that promoting the cleveland bay is very low on some peoples lists.
Im sure you would understand that the reason some large breeders are giving up is they cant make any money in clevelands at the moment, there is a need to breed more i understand that totally, but if i bought every mare able to breed a foal and they all produced a live foal what would i do with all those foals
perhaps JP could explain that one


----------



## Welly (25 November 2012)

Why don't the CBHS ask  that all pure mares that use a pure stallion report the birth of the foal dead or alive to CBHS. This could be a requirement for Grants and premium.


----------



## John Patrick (25 November 2012)

Hello Harveysmom.

I am pleased that you are a member of the CBHS and that you &#8220; recognize that the society is the internationally recognized breed society.&#8221;

I don&#8217;t see the logic behind the example that you have cited in your post concerning the fact that both American&#8217;s and Australian&#8217;s have their own governments? 

To answer your question I don&#8217;t believe that the British government should be telling either the American or the Australian or New Zealand governments how they should run their countries because they once came under British rule.

But to put the example that you have used into a more appropriate context I don&#8217;t want the situation to emerge in the future that as a result of the CBHSA setting up it&#8217;s own Stud Book for Cleveland Bay horses to be registered in instead of them being registered in the CBHS internationally approved Cleveland Bay Breed Stud Book that the Society will loose the rights that it now enjoys to set the rules and regulations that determine what a Cleveland Bay horse is on a global basis. 

You risk the situation arising over the course of time where the CBHSA set it&#8217;s own quite different set of rules and regulations to those of the CBHS Stud Book to manage it&#8217;s separate Stud Book and horses that qualify to be entered into the CBHSA Stud Book will cease to be eligible to be entered into the CBHS Stud Book. That will split the breed population up unnecessarily. I think that the CBHSA should do as the CBHSNA has done and encourage breeders to register their horses in the CBHS Stud Book which is after all the Breeds legitimate Stud Book and to not have their own rival one that will encourage some people to put their horses in it instead.

With all due respect can I turn the question back to you? Why does the CBHSA feel that it is necessary for them to have their own Stud Book for people to register Cleveland Bay horses in instead of in the CBHS Stud Book, if as you say they are working with and supporting the CBHS? It would surely show far more support for the CBHS, that they are not affiliated with in any way if they had not set up their own rival Stud Book. 

My problem is quite simple few Pure Cleveland Bay foals are being registered with the CBHS from either Australasia or from North America. That is not good for the breed going forward.

To take your example about the government analogy a bit further you will no doubt have noticed that each country&#8217;s government has in acted a completely different set of laws and regulations that apply to their citizens to the ones that apply to the  people in either of the other two countries. That is precisely what will happen if different breed Societies set up in each country where Cleveland Bay horses are exported to and bred.  With such a small global Cleveland Bay horse population on the ground what is the sense of either encouraging or allowing that situation to arise? I don&#8217;t see any other breed Societies operating in that way so why should the CBHS?

I accept that mares and some stallions have been exported to both Australasia and to North America but they been registered with and licensed as stallions for breeding purposes by the CBHS. If horses are not registered with the CBHS and licensed by it for breeding purposes then they and their progeny will not be eligible in the future to be entered into the CBHS Stud Book. That is what I want to avoid happening.

Every breed Society has a set of rules and regulations that determine whether or not   animals qualify to be entered into it and classed as pedigree animals. You say that I should be careful not to become a control freak or I will drive people away. The real danger for the breed is that if the horses are not managed under the control of the CBHS Stud Book rules and regulations that all other Cleveland Bay horses are to be entitled to be called pure Cleveland Bay horses then the ones in Australasia that are not registered with the CBHS will loose the right to be called pure Cleveland Bay horses in the future.

Harveysmom, with so few Cleveland Bay foals being born and registered I find it amazing that people like you keep on asserting that it is difficult to  sell them? Why ever did you or anyone else for that matter buy one in the first place if they are such bad horses? If some people stopped continually running them down then I am sure that the people who do find it difficult to sell their horses will not do so in the future.


----------



## Rollin (25 November 2012)

Welly said:



			Why don't the CBHS ask  that all pure mares that use a pure stallion report the birth of the foal dead or alive to CBHS. This could be a requirement for Grants and premium.
		
Click to expand...

I agree with you, in fact if we used the French system of on-line reporting we could also collect fertility data.  I understand that where stallions are run with mares there is no accurate data on coverings and conception which would make this difficult.

Breeders outside the UK get no financial incentives.  In addition overseas members are charged higher membership fees and in contravention of EU Laws on discrimination CBHS registered a new 'article' in 2011 excluding non-UK residents from the Council.  

The insistence that hair samples are sent to AHT for DNA testing is another cost.  DNA tests for my Shagya's are done, using blood, through the National Stud and cost 41 euros.

I agree with the poster from Texas, I am sure there are many pure bred Cleveland Bays never registered with CBHS.  For example, I know that four pure bred mares were sold to France by members of Council (2005/2006).  No transfers have ever been recorded for these four mares non of them were ever registered in France.  One gave birth to a colt in France, now four years old, who is also not registered on the SIRE database or in the stud book.

This mare was whisked back to Yorkshire for her second foaling.  We do not know the whereabouts of the Knaresborough fillies now of breeding age.  We have put posts on the Total France forum with no success.

The first Cleveland Bay we ever considered buying was a gelding, unregistered, by Mulgrave Royal out of Blackhall Lady Zara, they had many foals and only one was ever registered.  An unregistered stallion stood at Ormiston Stud on Speyside for many years and produced many part bred foals.  I am certain he was a son of MR and Lady Zara.

Two years ago a friend was looking for a Cleveland Bay and found 3 or 4 for sale in the south of England, again not registered.


----------



## John Patrick (25 November 2012)

Hello Rollin.

Congratulations on acquiring Highpasture Hattie.  She should make a good addition to your growing band of pure Cleveland Bay horses and compliment your stallion, Afondale Highlander. I look forward to hearing from you in due course that she is in foal to him and that a healthy foal results that will be registered with the CBHS in its Stud Book.

I note your comment about the number of pure Cleveland Bay horses that you state haven&#8217;t been registered with the CBHS over the years here in the UK and elsewhere. Any Cleveland Bay horse that is not registered with it in the CBHS Stud Book is a loss to the breeding population going forward. With so few of them on the ground at present that can&#8217;t be good for the breed&#8217;s survival.  If they meet the Society's eligibility conditions to be entered into the CBHS Stud Book then I would urge their breeders to put them forward to be entered into it.

I am mindful that the horses that you refer to in your post as having been exported from the UK to France have in fact been registered as pure Cleveland Bay horses in the CBHS Stud Book in advance of them going over there. I accept that the transfer of ownership details haven&#8217;t been registered for them but it is the responsibility of the buyer  and not the seller to do that. I suspect that some of them may not be members of the CBHS.

As you know from our previous communications on the subject   I have argued very strongly if favor of the Society getting rid of the condition that a member has to be ordinarily resident in the UK to be able to stand for a seat on the Council. I also voted to have that condition removed from the Society&#8217;s Articles Of Association at the last Annual General Meeting and still hope that it will be removed as soon as is possible. I am aware that the Defra audit of the Society as a Stud Book holder recommended to the Council that they remove that condition from it&#8217;s governing documents which is why it was put to the membership at the last AGM.

The fact that the Society has and will no doubt make some questionable decisions in the future does not detract from that reality that it is the international recognized Stud Book holder for the Cleveland Bay horse breed and as such all horses need to be registered in it to be recognized as pedigree Cleveland Bay horses. That is a &#8220;no brainer &#8220; to me and I fail to see why some other people seem to be oblivious to that important point?


----------



## Rollin (25 November 2012)

John Patrick,

We are delighted with Hattie, with is very sweet tempered and was as good as gold during the journey.  She is a good mate for our stallion but we won't be covering her next year.  She will be backed and schooled, possibly do her first endurance in July or September and put in foal in 2014.

Transfers.  You might be interested to know that one of the Welsh Pony Breeder's in France actually pays the fees for transfer of ownership and helps new owners, she then checks that transfers have been done.  It worries me that when pure bred mares are sold they are lost.  I would want to stay in touch with with anyone who purchased one of my horses.

I believe that DEFRA told the society to change the articles.  I don't know how well that was explained to the members.  It is embarassing for DEFRA as they should up hold policies on 'non-discrimination' particularly as there is a formal complaint lodged with the EU.


----------



## HumBugsey (25 November 2012)

I have no involvement in Clevelands but thought this video may be of interest, it's about the DofE's Cleveland x Oldenburgs in the 80's. Absolutely stunning mare shown at the beginning, does this mean none of the mews horses are registered as clevelands?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TRx502JW1k&feature=youtu.be


----------



## Talkingshell (25 November 2012)

Rollin said:



			Welcome to the debate 'Shell'  I think you have a stunning filly called Miss Independence?  It would be lovely to see some more photos on this forum if I have got it right.  I was interested in one of your comments.

"I can't say for the CBHSA, as this is in my own words and thoughts on the Cleveland Bays. And yes there are far few Purebreds, I've watched and it seems that purebred foals don't survive hence the reason for the decline?"

Do you know how how many foals are lost?  In Australia do you conduct an audit?  My problem with letters I received from protagonists of proposed changes to the grading register did not have any empirical data to support their reasons for change.
		
Click to expand...

Hi Rollin,

Thank you but this isn't 'Shell' that owns the lovely Miss Indenependence, actually she was sold to Lynsworth Lodge Stud where these people show Cleveland Bays (part-breds).  It's my part-bred gelding's breeder that I bought my horse from.  We both have the same name 'Michelle' and people call us 'Shell' as well.

I can't quote on how many foals are lost but there were few foals that were  sick, too weak or abort early.  I don't know if our CBHSA keeps tabs on foals on how many alive/how many didn't make it, that sort of thing. 

and for you JP...I've decided I'm not going to write any more as sounded like you are 'Control Freak' and have driven me away from.  It's been nice knowing you and others on this forum.

Have great day and keep supporting the Cleveland Bay Worldwide...


----------



## John Patrick (25 November 2012)

Hello Rollin,

I wish you well with breaking Hattie, your plans to compete her in endurance events next year and to breed from her in 2014.

I am aware of some longstanding Cleveland Bay horse breeders here in the UK who pay the CBHS membership fee for people who buy foals from them, if they are not already members of the Society to ensure that the transfer of the horses that they have bred are recorded with the Society. Sadly that doesnt always ensure that those people will continue to be members of the Society and in some cases when they have sold the horses on to other people that are not members of the CBHS they have become lost to the Cleveland Bay horse breeding population.

Like you I am always sad to hear about Cleveland Bay horses being lost to the breed what ever reason has caused that to come about.

You and I both are both aware that you are very closely connected with the CBHS Council member who was responsible for drafting the report that was tabled on the CBHS 2012 AGM agenda that contained the special and ordinary resolutions that members voted on at it, including the one concerning removing the present requirement in the Societys Articles of Association that Council members have to be ordinarily resident in the UK so I would have thought that you would have already been made aware by that person that David Anderson, the former CBHS Chair of Council informed the members present at the AGM that Defra had advised the Society that it should remove the requirement from its Articles of Association. Obviously the members that were not present at the AGM and has already authorized another member that was going to be at it to cast their proxy vote at the AGM on their behalf wouldnt have known about that fact in advance because it wasnt included in the report issued to members.


----------



## John Patrick (25 November 2012)

Hello Humbugsey.

Thank you for posting the link to the video of the Duke Of Edinburgh&#8217;s part bred Cleveland Bay horses combined trials driving team. I enjoyed watching it.

You asked the question: -

&#8220;  I have no involvement in Cleveland&#8217;s but thought this video may be of interest, it's about the DofE's Cleveland x Oldenburgs in the 80's. Absolutely stunning mare shown at the beginning, does this mean none of the mews horses are registered as clevelands? &#8220;

H. M. The Queen is the Patron of the CBHS. She breeds pure Cleveland Bay horses that are registered with the CBHS under the prefix Hampton Court.

The last horse that I can see registered with the CBHS is Hampton Court Sheffield, Stud Book number 2790. He is out of Fryup Tiffany Stud Book Number 2238 and by Lindon Principal, Stud Book number 2558.

If you have a look at the CBHS Diamond Jubilee Edition of its Cleveland Bay Magazine, No 45 that was issued in 2012 there is an article on page 5 entitled &#8221; The Royal Connection" that was written by the late Mr. Nigel Cowgill, the former CBHS Stud Book Editor in which he traces the royal Families long involvement with the Cleveland bay horse and Society back Her Majesty&#8217;s Grandfather George V to the present day. It is well worth the read.


----------



## Rollin (26 November 2012)

Talkingshell said:



			Hi Rollin,

Thank you but this isn't 'Shell' that owns the lovely Miss Indenependence, actually she was sold to Lynsworth Lodge Stud where these people show Cleveland Bays (part-breds).  It's my part-bred gelding's breeder that I bought my horse from.  We both have the same name 'Michelle' and people call us 'Shell' as well.

I can't quote on how many foals are lost but there were few foals that were  sick, too weak or abort early.  I don't know if our CBHSA keeps tabs on foals on how many alive/how many didn't make it, that sort of thing. 

and for you JP...I've decided I'm not going to write any more as sounded like you are 'Control Freak' and have driven me away from.  It's been nice knowing you and others on this forum.

Have great day and keep supporting the Cleveland Bay Worldwide...

Click to expand...

Ah ha!!  I thought you were a Shelley, my sister's name.

All my working life was spent in health care so I always want to know 'Why?'.  Do you have a problem in Australia with fescue grass?  Millions of acres in the USA are contaminated and it does cause early abortion and difficult foalings.

I am particularly interested in nutrition both before and after foaling.  A real hot topic as there is a school of thought that hard feed = big foals and for youngstock = OCD.

I don't agree with that.  We feed our mares with a product designed for brood mares in the last few months, the same for weanlings, we feed an appropriate feed.  For both our breeds we are finding our foals are strong and have plenty of bone.

I feel that as breed fans we should be enthusiastic about properly conducted research.


----------



## Rollin (26 November 2012)

HumBugsey said:



			I have no involvement in Clevelands but thought this video may be of interest, it's about the DofE's Cleveland x Oldenburgs in the 80's. Absolutely stunning mare shown at the beginning, does this mean none of the mews horses are registered as clevelands?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TRx502JW1k&feature=youtu.be

Click to expand...

Thank you for posting that link.  A really interesting video - I did not know HRH preferred Hungarian harness!! (One of my two Shagya mares ex Babolna was broken to harness before saddle).

I am not sure that all of his HDT team horses were part breds?  I think he used pure breds as well.  I am delighted he speaks so highly of the calm temperament of the mare in the first picture.  It is what I expect of all my horses.

Now my photo bucket is working I will post some photos of our new filly on the Breeder's Forum.  She was bred by Nigel and Sue Cowgill and her full brother went to the Royal Mews as a Carriage Horse, he is now with the King's Troop.


----------



## harveysmom (26 November 2012)

Dear JP,
I understand your concerns with getting more horses registered with the mother society, but excluding a perfectly eligble horse because it is not registered is indeed a waste
with the risk of repeating myself again, the other societies are AWARE of the breed standards and are COOPERATING with the CBHS to ensure what they have registered is what would be acceptable to the CBHS. I feel that perhaps in the future we could try to consider the other societies as foreign branches of the CBHS as a way forward
you will not encourage people to work more closely with you with your approach
you have see other peoples concerns for the breed not just your own


----------



## HumBugsey (26 November 2012)

In part 2 (i think) there's more about the horses. I think they were all CB/Oldenburg. I've read DofE's book "30 years on and off the box seat" and as well as being hilarious it has details of all the horses he stole from balmoral and the mews! lol Unfortunately I lent the book to LizzieJ and haven't got it back yet. 

Hungarian harness is just breastcollar harness, as far as I'm aware the terms are interchangable just in the UK we used to only use collars are they're farrrrr more efficient. But a breast collar can fit multiple horses. I've used the same breastcollar on a 15.3hh clydey cross and a 17.2 Shire/Percheron!


----------



## Rollin (26 November 2012)

I did not realise that breast collar/Hungarian meant the same.  Thank you for the explanation.  I have both types of collar but cannot use a breast collar with my Ralli Car (1910) as it has no swingle tree.


----------



## HumBugsey (26 November 2012)

Like I said, as far as I know, they're the same. My boss used it interchangeably anyway!

Oooo a period rally car, very nice. I'd be finding a swingletree pronto and entering an attelage de tradition!


----------



## Rollin (26 November 2012)

I have looked at getting one fitted but not always easy with an old vehicle!!


----------



## John Patrick (26 November 2012)

Hello Harveysmon.

You say: -

***8220; I understand your concerns with getting more horses registered with the mother society, but excluding a perfectly eligible horse because it is not registered is indeed a waste
with the risk of repeating myself again, the other societies are AWARE of the breed standards and are COOPERATING with the CBHS to ensure what they have registered is what would be acceptable to the CBHS. I feel that perhaps in the future we could try to consider the other societies as foreign branches of the CBHS as a way forward you will not encourage people to work more closely with you with your approach you have see other peoples concerns for the breed not just your own concerns;

With all due respect to you I dont think that you do understand my concerns.

The CBHS is not the mother Society to either the CBHSNA or the CBHSA. They are both completely separate independent bodies that have no formal link with the CBHS.

The CBHSNA doesnt have its own separate Stud Book. It does encourage people to register their pure bred horses with the CBHS in the breeds approved Stud Book so that they are maintained as pedigree Cleveland Bay horses.

The CBHSA does have its own separate Stud Book / Register that people can and do enter both their pure and part bred Cleveland Bay horses into. Some people double register them with both the CBHS and with the CBHSA but as can be seen from the low number of pure Cleveland Bay horses that have been registered with the CBHS in its Stud Book that is becoming a rare event. More often people are only registering them with the CBHSA. 

If as you say the CBHSA is working with and supporting the efforts of the CBHS why then does it need to have its own separate Stud Book? The CBHSNA doesnt feel the need to have one so why do they?

It is precisely because I dont want to see any horse that is eligible to be registered with the CBHS based upon its registered pedigree that I want them to be registered with the CBHS that is responsible for accrediting horses with the pedigree status of being pure Cleveland Bay horses. I dont want to see all of the hard work that their breeders and previous breeders before them have put in over the years to maintain their pedigree status by them not being registered in the breeds recognized Stud Book now as is required to maintain it. It will not be me, but rather the horses present day owner who has wasted all of that effort if they dont register them with the CBHS in its Stud Book.

The registered office of the CBHS is based in Harrogate, Yorkshire, UK. As such it and the Cleveland Bay breed Stud Book that it is the holder of is governed by English laws and as far as it applies to England also by EEC laws.  

The relevant EEC law that governs whether or not a horse is eligible to be entered into a Stud Book here in the UK is covered in the European Commission Decision 96/78/EC.

It is as follows: -

EEC; 96/78/EC: COMMISSION DECISION of 10 January 1996 laying down the criteria for entry and registration of equidae in stud-books for breeding purposes (Text with EEA relevance) (96/78/EC).

THE COMMISSION OF THE EUROPEAN COMMUNITIES, Having regard to the Treaty establishing the European Community,

Having regard to Council Directive 90/427/EEC of 26 June 1990 on the zootechnical and genealogical conditions governing intra-Community trade in equidae (1), and in particular Article 4 (2) (b) thereof, Whereas under Article 4 (2) (b) of Directive 90/427/EEC the harmonized criteria governing the entry of equidae in stud-books should be established; Whereas it is therefore necessary to lay down the criteria for the entry of equidae in stud-books for breeding purposes; Whereas precise conditions relating to lineage and identification must be met prior to entry in the stud-book; Whereas allowance should be made for the division of the stud-book into different sections and classes so that certain types of animals will not be excluded; Whereas the measures provided for in this Decision are in accordance with the opinion of the Standing Committee on Zootechnics, HAS ADOPTED THIS DECISION:

Article 1. 
1.To qualify for entry in the main section of the studbook of its breed registered equidae must:

- be descended from parents entered in the main section of a stud-book of that same breed and have a pedigree established in accordance with the rules of that stud-book,
- be identified as foal at foot according to the rules of that stud-book, which at least should require the covering certificate.
2. In derogation from the first indent of paragraph 1, an animal can be entered in the main section to take part in a cross breeding programme approved by the organization or association according to the rules of that stud-book. The cross breeding programme should mention the breeds which are allowed to take part.
Article 2.
1.The main section of a stud-book may be divided in conformity with No 3 (b), fifth indent, of the Annex of Commission Decision 92/353/EEC (2) laying down the criteria for the approval or recognition of organizations and associations which maintain or establish stud-books for registered equidae into several classes according to the animals' merits. Only equidae meeting the criteria laid down in Article 1 may be entered in one of those classes.
2. Where a stud-book contains several classes in the main section, an animal from another stud-book shall be entered in the class of the stud-book whose criteria it meets.
Article 3.
1. An organization or association keeping a stud-book may decide that an animal, which does not meet the criteria laid down in Article 1, may be entered in a supplementary section of that stud-book. The animal must meet the following requirements:
- be identified in accordance with the stud-book rules,
- - be judged to conform to the breed standard,
- have a minimum performance as laid down in the stud-book rules.
2. The organization or association should fix the rules allowing progeny of such animals to enter the main section.
Article 4. This Decision is addressed to the Member States. Done at Brussels, 10 January 1996. For the Commission. Franz FISCHLER. Member of the Commission. (1) OJ No L 224, 18. 8. 1990, p. 55.  (2) OJ No L 192, 11. 7. 1992, p. 63. EEC 8220;

I have been informed by a person in Australasia that breeders who enter their horses into the CBHSA Stud Book now instead of in the CBHS Stud Book (including ones that wouldnt now be entitled to be admitted into the CBHS Stud Book because they dont meet its eligibility rules and regulations because for example they are by unlicensed stallions etc) that they would be able to mount a successful legal challenge against the CBHS if it refused to admit those horses into its Stud Book at some future date. That is not correct. If an Australasian Cleveland Bay breeder mounted such a challenge against the CBHS then it would be assessed against whether or not the CBHS had complied with the EEC rules and regulations that I have outlined above and not under the provisions of any other ones that might apply in another legal jurisdiction. The CBHS Stud Book entry rules conform to the prevailing EEC and Defra requirements. The Society has been very careful about what terms and conditions it sets in this regard.
There have been cases over the years of people approaching the Society to allow them to have their horses that are claimed to be Cleveland Bays (in some times many generations down the line when there is no verifiable record of their breeding) entered into its Stud Book as pure or part bred Cleveland Bay horses. Problems like this one could be so easily avoided by breeders registering their horses with the CBHS in its Stud Book.
To the best of my knowledge the CBHSA has no plans to be formally linked with the CBHS and wants to remain totally independent from it which is it***8217;s right so comments about daughter stud book arrangements etc are totally irrelevant.


----------



## John Patrick (26 November 2012)

Hello Harveysmon.

You say: -

 I understand your concerns with getting more horses registered with the mother society, but excluding a perfectly eligible horse because it is not registered is indeed a waste
with the risk of repeating myself again, the other societies are AWARE of the breed standards and are COOPERATING with the CBHS to ensure what they have registered is what would be acceptable to the CBHS. I feel that perhaps in the future we could try to consider the other societies as foreign branches of the CBHS as a way forward you will not encourage people to work more closely with you with your approach you have see other peoples concerns for the breed not just your own 

With all due respect to you I dont think that you do understand my concerns.

The CBHS is not the mother Society to either the CBHSNA or the CBHSA. They are both completely separate independent bodies that have no formal link with the CBHS.

The CBHSNA doesnt have its own separate Stud Book. It does encourage people to register their pure bred horses with the CBHS in the breeds approved Stud Book so that they are maintained as pedigree Cleveland Bay horses.

The CBHSA does have its own separate Stud Book / Register that people can and do enter both their pure and part bred Cleveland Bay horses into. Some people double register them with both the CBHS and with the CBHSA but as can be seen from the low number of pure Cleveland Bay horses that have been registered with the CBHS in its Stud Book that is becoming a rare event. More often people are only registering them with the CBHSA. 

If as you say the CBHSA is working with and supporting the efforts of the CBHS why then does it need to have its own separate Stud Book? The CBHSNA doesnt feel the need to have one so why do they?

It is precisely because I dont want to see any horse that is eligible to be registered with the CBHS based upon its registered pedigree that I want them to be registered with the CBHS that is responsible for accrediting horses with the pedigree status of being pure Cleveland bay horses. I dont want to see all of the hard work that their breeders and previous breeders before them have put in over the years to maintain their pedigree status by them not being registered in the breeds recognized Stud Book now as is required. It will not be me, but rather the horses present day owner who has wasted all of that effort if they dont register them with the CBHS in its Stud Book.

The registered office of the CBHS is based in Harrogate, Yorkshire, UK. As such it and the Cleveland Bay breed Stud Book that it is the holder of is governed by English laws and as far as it applies to England EEC laws.  

The relevant EEC law that governs whether or not a horse is eligible to be entered into a Stud Book here in the UK is covered in the European Commission Decision 96/78/EC.

It is as follows: -

 96/78/EC: COMMISSION DECISION of 10 January 1996 laying down the criteria for entry and registration of equidae in stud-books for breeding purposes (Text with EEA relevance) (96/78/EC).

THE COMMISSION OF THE EUROPEAN COMMUNITIES, Having regard to the Treaty establishing the European Community,

Having regard to Council Directive 90/427/EEC of 26 June 1990 on the zootechnical and genealogical conditions governing intra-Community trade in equidae (1), and in particular Article 4 (2) (b) thereof, Whereas under Article 4 (2) (b) of Directive 90/427/EEC the harmonized criteria governing the entry of equidae in stud-books should be established; Whereas it is therefore necessary to lay down the criteria for the entry of equidae in stud-books for breeding purposes; Whereas precise conditions relating to lineage and identification must be met prior to entry in the stud-book; Whereas allowance should be made for the division of the stud-book into different sections and classes so that certain types of animals will not be excluded; Whereas the measures provided for in this Decision are in accordance with the opinion of the Standing Committee on Zootechnics, HAS ADOPTED THIS DECISION:

Article 1. 
1.To qualify for entry in the main section of the studbook of its breed registered equidae must:

- be descended from parents entered in the main section of a stud-book of that same breed and have a pedigree established in accordance with the rules of that stud-book,
- be identified as foal at foot according to the rules of that stud-book, which at least should require the covering certificate.
2. In derogation from the first indent of paragraph 1, an animal can be entered in the main section to take part in a cross breeding programme approved by the organization or association according to the rules of that stud-book. The cross breeding programme should mention the breeds which are allowed to take part.
Article 2.
1.The main section of a stud-book may be divided in conformity with No 3 (b), fifth indent, of the Annex of Commission Decision 92/353/EEC (2) laying down the criteria for the approval or recognition of organizations and associations which maintain or establish stud-books for registered equidae into several classes according to the animals' merits. Only equidae meeting the criteria laid down in Article 1 may be entered in one of those classes.
2. Where a stud-book contains several classes in the main section, an animal from another stud-book shall be entered in the class of the stud-book whose criteria it meets.
Article 3.
1. An organization or association keeping a stud-book may decide that an animal, which does not meet the criteria laid down in Article 1, may be entered in a supplementary section of that stud-book. The animal must meet the following requirements:
- be identified in accordance with the stud-book rules,
- - be judged to conform to the breed standard,
- have a minimum performance as laid down in the stud-book rules.
2. The organization or association should fix the rules allowing progeny of such animals to enter the main section.
Article 4. This Decision is addressed to the Member States. Done at Brussels, 10 January 1996. For the Commission. Franz FISCHLER. Member of the Commission. (1) OJ No L 224, 18. 8. 1990, p. 55.  (2) OJ No L 192, 11. 7. 1992, p. 63. 
I have been informed by a person in Australasia that breeders who enter their horses into the CBHSA Stud Book now instead of in the CBHS Stud Book (including ones that wouldnt be entitled now to have their horse admitted into the CBHS Stud Book because they dont meet its eligibility rules and regulations because for example they are by unlicensed stallions etc) that they would be able to mount a successful legal challenge against the CBHS if it refused to admit those horses into its Stud Book at some future date. That is not correct. If an Australasian Cleveland Bay breeder mounted such a challenge against the CBHS then it would be assessed against whether or not the CBHS had complied with the EEC rules and regulations that I have outlined above and not under the provisions of any other ones that might apply in another legal jurisdiction. The CBHS Stud Book entry rules conform to the prevailing EEC and Defra requirements. The Society has been very careful about what terms and conditions it sets in this regard.
There have been cases over the years of people approaching the Society to allow them to have their horses that are claimed to be Cleveland Bays (in some times many generations down the line when there is no verifiable record of their breeding) entered into its Stud Book as pure or part bred Cleveland Bay horses. Problems like this one could be so easily avoided by breeders registering their horses with the CBHS in its Stud Book.
To the best of my knowledge the CBHSA has no plans to be formally linked with the CBHS and wants to remain totally independent from it which is its right so comments about daughter stud book arrangements etc are totally irrelevant.


----------



## Talkingshell (26 November 2012)

John Patrick...a simple question for you!

How many pure Cleveland Bays have you got? 
How many purebred foals did you bred?  
Have you sold any?


----------



## John Patrick (27 November 2012)

Talkingshell.

Can you explain to me what the purpose of your question is?

I understand that we were discussing a point of principle which is whether or not Cleveland Bay horse breeders should register their pure Cleveland Bay horses with the CBHS here in the UK which is the acknowleged Stud Book holder for the Cleveland Bay breed on a global basis so that their pedigrees can be verified as pure Cleveland bay horses  in accordance with its rules and regulations. Is that not what is happening?

Perhaps I could put two simple question back to you which are why are Cleveland Bay horse breeders in Australasia so reluctant to register theirpure Cleveland Bay horses with the CBHS and Why does the CBHSA have to have its own Stud Book / Register if as you say it is working to support the CBHS?


----------



## harveysmom (13 December 2012)

Dear JP, sorry it has taken me so long between posts horses and christmas have taken priority, i have taken a bit of time to look more closely at some of the treads and would like to discuss some of these with you

The point that bothers me the most is that you keep saying people are running the CB down and i think i am correct in saying you have actually accused me of this when you said if they are so bad why did i ever buy one, to put the record straight i have never had a bad word to say about the CB horse they are wonderful,loyal and brave horses that do not get the recognition they deserve. I am at a loss as to why you feel people are badmouthing the CB horse, just because they have a difference of opinion than yourself on how the breed should move forward. You clearly make your point that breeding is important to you and of course it is very important to the breed as a whole. I am going over old ground here when i say that geldings do have a job to do in advertising how fantastic this breed really is so i naturally have a different priority in trying to help the breed than you so please dont disrespect the efforts made by myself and others who do attend the cleveland bay classes as this has a cost attached which as i see it is my donation to the breed.
which leads quite nicely to another point in tread #89 you mention the marketing strategy 
"to recognise performance excellence in pure/part bred CB and provide a mechanism of support" this does point to the fact that most of the people who have taken part in this debate already seem to realise advertising the breed is a priority for the cleveland bay horse society, you are in an envyable position when you said that you did not have to sell your foals, that maybe good for you, but others do have to sell theirs.
THEY MAY THINK THAT ADVERTISING HELPS

About your mares and your breeding program, the reason myself and others have asked about this in previous treads ie: how many mares/how many foals have you bred etc is to discover if you are practicing what you preach,so i ask again are your mares all in foal so that you are setting a good example and whether they are or not i would hope to see them in the showring next year with or without a foal at foot as we havent seen them this year

finally in this tread the foreign breed societies, rome was not built in a day and you will not help by being rude to them this will not ecourage them to work more closely with us
here i go again repeating myself,they are cooperating with the CBHS perhaps not as closely as you would like but its a start. They are following the breed standards and one of the 2 societies mentioned is nearly as old as ours if they havent drifted off by now they probably wont. if we are truly interested in helping this breed survive we must set aside the pettiness at least until the numbers increase, they seem happy to work together and who knows one day perhaps they can be seen as foreign branches of our society but to say they are rivals is very hostile and certainly not what the cleveland bay needs right now
if their horses have to correct ancestory and quality they should not be discarded we cant afford to be this wasteful 
In #91 you mention breeders and society members work collectively together where ever they are located globally it obviously has to include overseas breeders as well as uk based ones.
In #89 "to develop effective partnerships with other relevent organisations in support to the strategies CBHS develop best practice from other societies that support the strategy
This does seem to be whats happening

On a final note the cleveland bay is an artificial breed just like the TB made by man [ not native] and its history seems to show me that the breeders of yesteryear seemed to be more open to outside blood from time to time ie the yorkshire coach horse. Of course i dont tend to go into it as deep as you
Breeders of yesteryear invented the cleveland bay to do a job times have changed and the jobs they once did dont exsist we are lucky they are more versatile than other breeds that have already gone
What jobs are your foals being bred to do JP


----------



## John Patrick (14 December 2012)

Harveysmom,

You say The point that bothers me the most is that you keep saying people are running the CB down

You said on the 09/11/12 at 06:30PM to agree with  comments made by magnificsporthorses when she stated that Former CB horse inspectors were among those supporting the proposed changes, seeking to restore the quality of the breed that they felt may be declining due to the severely restricted gene pool. to say all those in favour of the change are worried about is the existing gene pool being to limited which may lead to defects within the breed lets stop in before it starts"... "if we sit on our hands the cleveland bay will die out and we wont have to worry about introducing outside blood also my belief is that the grading register should be scrapped there are not enough pure cleveland bays to allow us to be that fussy on a final note if you look at old photos of cleveland bays they have already changed so all this being careful hasnt made a jot of difference.

You have referred to the supposed lack of quality and defects within the breed. Some people are intent on keeping the grade register debate going in the hope that the proposed changed will be introduced. Throughout the debate wild and un substantiated claims were made by the supporters of the grade register proposals in an attempt to justify introducing them that the breed suffered from a number of inherited deleterious conditions and that it has lost or lacks quality. That is running the breed down in my books particularly when the claims that were made couldnt be backed up with hard evidence.

You have asked me about breeding. What is important to me is not  breeding for the sake of breeding but rather breeding to retain the Pure Cleveland Bay horse as a distinct native British Breed of horse that is unique. There are few pure Cleveland Bay horses in the world at present. If their numbers are not increased soon then the breed will be lost forever. I dont want to just breed more horses from any background and label them as pure Cleveland Bay horses as some appear intent upon doing. If people want to breed part bred or sports horses based upon Cleveland Bay breeding they can do that now alongside people such as myself who want to retain the pure Cleveland Bay horse.  

Other breed societies have eligibility rules for their pure Stud Books that are  tighter than the existing CBHS Stud Book ones. They value their pure horses for what they are and work to maintain them as well as promoting their part bred horses as separate animals of value. What is wrong with doing that?

You say .. that geldings do have a job to do in advertising how fantastic this breed really is so i naturally have a different priority in trying to help the breed than you so please dont disrespect the efforts made by myself and others who do attend the cleveland bay classes as this has a cost attached which as i see it is my donation to the breed. Can you point out to me where I have disrespected you efforts? I have said on numerous occasions that part bred horses, including geldings play a very valuable role in helping to promote the breed. The success of part bred horses out competing promotes both them and the need to retain pure Cleveland Bay horses so that more quality part bred performance horses can be bred in the future.

I have not said that the Cleveland Bay breed should not be advertised. I dont understand the point that you make in capital letters  THEY MAY THINK THAT ADVERTISING HELPS 

You say:- About your mares and your breeding program, the reason myself and others have asked about this in previous treads ie: how many mares/how many foals have you bred etc is to discover if you are practicing what you preach,so i ask again are your mares all in foal so that you are setting a good example and whether they are or not i would hope to see them in the showring next year with or without a foal at foot as we havent seen them this year. You are the only person who has asked me about what I am doing with my mares. I dont know whom the other people are that you refer to? I have already said in earlier posts that I am using them to breed pure Cleveland bay foals. To satisfy your curiosity all of them of breeding age are in foal for next year. Two foals are already booked. I consider that breeding from my mares at present is a higher priority for the breeds future well being than either showing them or competing them. You obviously dont know me well otherwise you would be aware that I was involved in a serious car crash four years ago that has resulted in me having to have a series of major spinal fusion operations and related ongoing treatments so you might be forgiven for your comments about me not showing my horses.I will not be doing so in the coming year.  

You have not answered my question which was why does the CBHSA needs to have a stud book if as you say it is working in support of the CBHS and following the same rules as it does?The CBHSNA does not have its own Stud Book so why does the CBHSA? 

There are fewer pure Cleveland Bay horses in the world today than there are giant pandas. The population needs to be  managed as far as a domestic breed of horse that is owned by individuals can be as one population under the same set of Stud Book rules and conditions if the maximum amount of the existing genetic diversity is going to be retained and its effective population size increased over successive generations of breeding. If other stud books are formed that are separate to the existing CBHS internationally recognized Cleveland Bay breed Stud Book then over time, just as is happening now in Australasia some Cleveland Bay horses will be entered into those and not into the CBHS Stud Book. Different eligibility rules will be developed that will make horses ineligible to be entered into the CBHS Stud Book. Why risk that situation happening when breeders can and should enter their pure Cleveland Bay horses in the CBHS Stud Book if they want to work together to preserve the breed on a global basis?

It will be interesting to see how the CBHSA amend their eligibility/ entry rules. I doubt very much that they will conform to the same requirements that the CBHS has in place in future years. If I am wrong and the entry rules are going to be exactly the same as in the CBHS Stud Book then why is there a need for a CBHSA Stud Book at all? 

You assert that the CBHSNA and the CBHSA: -

 are following the breed standards and one of the 2 societies mentioned is nearly as old as ours if they havent drifted off by now they probably wont.

The CBHS North America was founded shortly after the CBHS was but of more importance than that is that despite large number of Cleveland Bays being exported to North America since the society was established that most of the genetic diversity and potential contribution to the pure breed has been lost because those horses are no longer represented in todays pure Cleveland Bay population. The pure Cleveland Bay horses that make up the population of todays North American population are largely comprised of  descendent of horses exported in recent times. If the descendents of the initial horses that were exported to North America had been registered with the CBHS as a few of the breeders did then their genetic contribution to todays population would not have been lost to the breed now. I want to avoid a repetition of that from happening again by ensuring that as many pure Cleveland Bays are registered with the CBHS now. 

The two overseas societies have no plans to become affiliated with the CBHS unless you know different? The CBHS has overseas members in both North America and in Australasia who register their horses with the CBHS. That is what I would like to see all pure Cleveland Bay horse breeders doing.  What is wrong with that so that the breed can be maintained as one global population under the same set of Stud Book eligibility rules and entry conditions?

The Cleveland Bay horse has a long history and recorded pedigree in the CBHS Stud Book. It is recognized as a distinct native British breed of horse.  It has not had a lot of outside genetics introduced into it as you claim as was evidenced in for example Dr Andrew Dells recently published research. If you study the history of the breed you will see that contrary to what you say it is not the case that  its history seems to show me that the breeders of yesteryear seemed to be more open to outside blood from time to time ie the yorkshire coach horse.

The two organizations went their separate ways because of the desire of the Yorkshire Coach Horse Society to use thoroughbred breeding that the Cleveland Bay Horse Society Council would not allow to be admitted into its Stud Book. The Yorkshire Coach horse has had very little impact on the CBHS Stud Book and breed if you study the number of horses that were admitted into it that have bred on and left descendents in todays pure Cleveland Bay horse population. 

You ask me  What jobs are your foals being bred to do JP They are being bred at present primarily in order to maintain the breed as a distinct native pure British breed of horse that is versatile and can meet many of the needs of todays wider equine community.  They are capable of being good quality general purpose riding and driving horses. I am not planning on breeding top class sports or performance horse from them because I dont think that, other than the exceptional animal that the pure Cleveland Bay horse fulfills that role but they can and have been used to breed such top class performance horses when crossed with thoroughbred and other types.


----------



## Rollin (16 December 2012)

The proposed changes to the Grading Register have torn about the CBHS.  I am just reading about conflict within the NPS.  NEWS item on H&H.

There has been a lot of conflict in WCPS.

Are our breed societies doing the best for British Breeding?


----------

