# Parelli Demo on robert Whittakers stallion Stonleigh Friday 9th...Anybody else bside



## ponydentist (10 July 2010)

Im competeing at Royal festival for the horse at Stoneleigh this weekend and went to watch Pat parelli working on a stallion brought to him by Robert Whittaker which was extreemely hard to bridle. just wondering if anyone else watched the demo and would like to comment. Open minds only please for sensible discussion.


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## Elsbells (10 July 2010)

I was just going to start this thread and was wondering where we all are? So well done you, it should be a good one.

It was my first Parelli experience and it will be my last!!!!

We confronted him and spoke to Robert as he came out. We got our money back too, although it's not enough as far as I'm concerned. Pat told us that he was going to give the horse the same treatment every day of the show at Roberts stables and at his request....................FOR THE GOOD OF THE HORSE!!


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## Seahorse (10 July 2010)

was it awful then? 
Please tell me what happened


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## Puppy (10 July 2010)

elsbells said:



			I was just going to start this thread and was wondering where we all are? So well done you, it should be a good one.

It was my first Parelli experience and it will be my last!!!!

We confronted him and spoke to Robert as he came out. We got our money back too, although it's not enough as far as I'm concerned. Pat told us that he was going to give the horse the same treatment every day of the show at Roberts stables and at his request....................FOR THE GOOD OF THE HORSE!!
		
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Crikey! What happened?


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## Weezy (10 July 2010)

Yes, full explanation required please


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## Elsbells (10 July 2010)

This will be brief as it would go on and on and others will be able to fill in the gaps I hope?

It all started well and the savvy riders were great, then Pat was introduced and he gave what I would expect to be the same talk on the princibles. Then Robert came in and gave a rough outline on his recently owned 7 year old jumping stallion Catwalk, and the fact that it was almost impossible to bridle him. Robert was not willing however to show us just how he did, but did though mention that he couldn't do it in a nice way. 

Then the bay stallion was brought in, he was stunning and so well behaved cosidering the atmosphere and no doubt, his feeling of isolation from the other horses waiting outside.

It started well and Pat continued his talk as he led the stallion around the areana on a long rope. He talked of relationships, perceptions and of course the principles of love, language and leadership. Then he pulled it's head down as his is the Parrelli thing I guess? He then tried to touch Catwalks head and ears unsuccessfuly I might add and so became a little more forceful in his approach and asked to be brought in a saddle pad which he then slid up and down a distrssed Catwalks neck and over his face. This went on for a while and then he asked for music. The room went silent, all viewers went dumb as they watched him use a gum line as a twitch and a 22ft rope wrapped around the fetlock to the knee to haul Catwalks leg off the floor to render him unable to move while he tried to force the bride onto a now very distressed and frightened horses face!!

Catwalk hopped away and went down on his remaining knee and backed into the jump and the fence rails. Linda who'd had her face in hr hands up to this point, then raced around from her chair at the side of the areana and joined him in the fight, pulling at the rope while Pat continued to force on the bridle. The distressed horse managed to break away momentairily and run for the exit and safety. They caught him and started the whole process again where the horse stood.

I have to confess that at this point, we were unable to watch any more and had to walk out.


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## Weezy (10 July 2010)

Oh.My.God.

Am speechless TBH.  I wonder if anyone was videoing it.


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## Puppy (10 July 2010)

Good lord! I wonder if anyone has it on video... Did other spectators vote with their feet/speak out?

ETS - Snap, Weezy!


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## Weezy (10 July 2010)

Great minds and all that Pups


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## Weezy (10 July 2010)

Seems it isn't Robert's first foray into the world of Parelli...but it sounds like a completely different experience!

http://www.yourhorse.co.uk/Your-Hor.../april-14-robert-whitaker-gives-parelli-a-go/


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## Weezy (10 July 2010)

Seems the Parellis are VERY happy with their work on Catwalk 

http://shareparelli.com/node/7539


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## Puppy (10 July 2010)

Weezy said:



			Seems the Parellis are VERY happy with their work on Catwalk 

http://shareparelli.com/node/7539

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ARGH!! *blood boils* 

I hope people do post it on youtube, and I'd interested to know if any HHOers going today would tell us what they see


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## thatsmygirl (10 July 2010)

Disgusting!!!! Horse abuse I would say and people actually use and believe in this it's scary. Parelli followers where are you...????? Explain?  Pat and linda seriously need to stop working with horses and taking gulable people in.


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## brighteyes (10 July 2010)

*_heads off to YouTube to see what people *think* they might have seen..._*


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## DJ (10 July 2010)

Weezy said:



			Seems the Parellis are VERY happy with their work on Catwalk 

http://shareparelli.com/node/7539

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*WTF*


Brainwashing drivel much ? ? ? ? ?


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## Munchkin (10 July 2010)

Haha I was just about to post that, Weezy!

Nothing there yet, brighteyes...


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## MrsElle (10 July 2010)

How long did this session last?  On the Parelli site it states the session over ran by 45 minutes.  How long was this poor horse subjected to them?


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## Weezy (10 July 2010)

I will certainly reserve judgement until I have seen footage, but from the explanation above I don't think for a minute I am going to like what I see!


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## ldlp111 (10 July 2010)

I have nothing wrong with different ways of teaching horses, but that sounds completely ridiculous.
The horse would now be more wary of having a bridle on surely??? Maybe try Richard Maxwell next time i'm sure i've seen him ride with no bridle, there we go problem solved
Was RW not worried about them injuring his stallion?

*I havn't looked at any of the links yet.


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## Sparkles (10 July 2010)

*twiddles thumbs with a raised eyebrow*


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## brighteyes (10 July 2010)

Come back *ponydentist*. What did you think to all this?


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## Elsbells (10 July 2010)

MrsElle said:



			How long did this session last?  On the Parelli site it states the session over ran by 45 minutes.  How long was this poor horse subjected to them?
		
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One of the ladies that walked out and spoke to Pat, said the gum line was in for an hour and 30 while we were in there, but then the show was going on still as we left.


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## Sparkles (10 July 2010)

Wonder if P could afford the case if Catwalk had gotten injured throughout this 'show' or put off jumping after going through it.

It's all fine bringing in everyday horses for sessions, but brave man having a £££££+price tag horse in there, I'll give him that.

But anywho. What business is it of mine  My horses seem thrilled with our Parelli....they'reloving eating all the carrot sticks


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## Munchkin (10 July 2010)

They said they were going to continue """""""""""educating"""""""""" the horse; I'd be interested to know if Robert is allowing this to happen.


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## PapaFrita (10 July 2010)

It sounds horrendous. I have a low opinion of Parelli having seen him (or one of his disciples) jump a tiny foal on his promotional DVD and read on their website (a while back) where Linda recommends treating a biting horse with carrots because then 'how could he help but like you?'. However. I shall also reserve final judgment until I've seen a video. Perhaps Pat will post it himself if there's nothing 'wrong' with it and explain the rationale behind his treatment of Catwalk.


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## brighteyes (10 July 2010)

Rule number two of good horsemanship is if you want them to cooperate you have to earn their trust.  Rule number one has to be give the horse  reason to know they can trust you.  How a successful outcome (completely resolved status) with a long-standing problem can be achieved in a 'session' I have no idea.  I have even less idea why, when the severity of the problem quickly became apparent, they even attempted to quick-fix it. 

What would have worked for me is to say this horse needs the fundamental reason for its 'fear' of the bridle uncovering and then working carefully through.  Til then, don't bridle it!

Oh, I forgot, it needs to earn money, so that route is out of the window.


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## Ellies_mum2 (10 July 2010)

Weezy said:



			Seems the Parellis are VERY happy with their work on Catwalk 

http://shareparelli.com/node/7539

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Ye heavens above   


The description I've just read of what happened by elsbells bears absolutely no resemblance to the P's version of events. Only similarity I can see is the 'breakthrough' where the poor horse broke free.  

Am I reading that link right? They are going to have 'another go' at getting the bridle on Catwalk today? 


*shakes head in disbelief*


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## Sparkles (10 July 2010)

brighteyes said:



			Rule number two of good horsemanship is if you want them to cooperate you have to earn their trust.  Rule number one has to be give the horse  reason to know they can trust you.  How a successful outcome (completely resolved status) with a long-standing problem can be achieved in a 'session' I have no idea.  I have even less idea why, when the severity of the problem quickly became apparent, they even attempted to quick-fix it. 

What would have worked for me is to say this horse needs the fundamental reason for its 'fear' of the bridle uncovering and then working carefully through.  Til then, don't bridle it!

Oh, I forgot, it needs to earn money, so that route is out of the window.
		
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Sort of similar to microwave meals....


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## TinselRider (10 July 2010)

"a couple of folks were upset at what they think they saw"

Erm....I am pretty sure people KNOW what they have seen


"Pat stopped at an appropriate time in the training process when he saw a breakthrough and preserved Catwalk's dignity,"

Or what was left of it by the sounds of it 



I would be interested to know if anyone finds a video, I have tried to keep an open mind but am finding it increasingly difficult


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## teagreen (10 July 2010)

This is not the only place I've read about this - it would appear that the majority of people who saw it think the exact same.

Don't know why this rubbish gets a spot at 'one of Britains best equestrian events' (although from what I hear, the whole thing was pretty pants...different story). Hope they don't get given room anywhere else, I can think of many more things that I, as an equestrian enthusiast, would rather see.


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## SirenaXVI (10 July 2010)

'We'll keep you posted on Catwalk's progress over the next few weeks which will help those that don't understand see the fruits of passive persistence'




Jesus H Christ how can virtually tying a horse down be passive persistence - first the video and now this, the Parelli's may fall off their pedestal yet!


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## brighteyes (10 July 2010)

They were very quick to put a 'disclaimer' up, weren't they!  I can't imagine the owners were happy.

Wonder what he is like to take the bridle off?


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## JessandCharlie (10 July 2010)

And Prat Parelli does it again! Good work, sounds like all is solved, tie him down, hobble him, maybe even sack him out next time eh? Sounds very bl00dy natural. Glad I wasn't there tbh. Come on Parelli fans, speak up, what exactly is the "thinking" behind this?


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## RunToEarth (10 July 2010)

Their head groom is contemplating walking out over it, it has really upset her, apparently made the horse a lot worse on the ground, and she was shocked he allowed them to continue with him as they did. 
I suppose you have to question, if it was your ride, whether you would allow that to have continued for quite as long as it did (which I am told was over 2hours?)


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## JessandCharlie (10 July 2010)

Do you think someone should email the link to here to the parelli lot so they can explain themselves?


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## angelish (10 July 2010)

oh dear that sounds terrible 
i have seen horse trainers use this approach before with little success 
but never expected it of "parelli" even if they were to do it ,why do it in front of a crowd  thats just asking for trouble/complaints

iv'e never really been a fan ,as far as im concerned parelli just sucks in and encourages mainly novice horse owners to ride there less than well handled/trained horses with no bridle or hat (don't know if they where them now but never used to) and i think its all a bit of a faddy money making sceem 
so i wouldn't do it myself but not offended by anyone that does (except when they are out with there carrot sticks and rope halters and come across me ridding a 3yr old and promptly loose control and let go of there horse  , luckily mine remained calm )

each to there own really but this should not have been done in public  can you imagine all the know it alls/wannabys who are going to go home and try this them selves 

i think parelli has a lot to answer to, this is terrible 

(would like to see video ,but from the sounds of this , im fairly sure without hearing other side of story that this is terrible)
any one got an email add from the venue ,maybe worth contacting the show


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## Weezy (10 July 2010)

No Jess, please do not encourage them to come on here - they will in their own time, however I think each side of the argument should wait until some kind soul puts vid footage up so each individual can make their own opinion.


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## laura77 (10 July 2010)

I was at the demo last night.

I was really impressed with how calm Pat stayed and how much softer and more relaxed the horse was by the end of the evening.

Sometimes it is easy to pass judgement on things that we do not understand.

Pat has continued to work with Robert and help the horse today and the horse has been checked by the show vet who said there were no problems at all.

At no point did the horse look distressed or even get worked up.  He was a pretty extreme horse and had learnt to say NO but had been bullied and pushed into wearing a bridle again and again anyway. Robert has only had him for a few weeks but I am sure that with Pat's team and Robert's amazing skill and patience this horse will be able to go on and live up to his potential without having to be battled into his bridle everyday.

These are just my thoughts anyway


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## Luci07 (10 July 2010)

I had a horse who became difficult to bridle in that he wouldn't accept the bridle going over his ears. When this started to be a problem, vet was called out and turned out said horse had an ear infection. That was sorted out but as a result, he would not accept the bridle going over his right ear - he was the kind of horse who if he worked out how he could say no would stick to it.

So the compromise (and IMO considerably more uncomfortable) was to undo the bridle by undoing the right cheekpiece drop the head piece over the ears, slip the bit in and then do up the cheek strap. Unfortunately the couple of times I had persisited in putting a bridle on when his ears were sore were enough to turn him for life and I honestly don't think any other method would have resulted in anything other than a fully fledged fight and hysterical horse.



I am sceptical - as a for instance, in the book, the horse whisperer - great he turns the horse around but ... in reality ... would you as an owner have put the horse through everything he had to suffer to get there? that part really galls me.


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## Weezy (10 July 2010)

So Laura - a horse that breaks free and runs off scared doesn't look distressed in your opinion?


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## ibot (10 July 2010)

sounds terrible would also like to see a link. 

hmmmm natural horsemanship yeah right


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## laura77 (10 July 2010)

Hi Weezy,

no, in MY opinion that horse was not scared or distressed.  I think we may have to agree to disagree on that which is fine.


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## BSJAlove (10 July 2010)

*drags in a chair and sits down with the popcorn (sweet)*  

natural horsemanship?? my arse!


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## Elsbells (10 July 2010)

laura77 said:



			I was at the demo last night.

I was really impressed with how calm Pat stayed and how much softer and more relaxed the horse was by the end of the evening.

Sometimes it is easy to pass judgement on things that we do not understand.

Pat has continued to work with Robert and help the horse today and the horse has been checked by the show vet who said there were no problems at all.

At no point did the horse look distressed or even get worked up.  He was a pretty extreme horse and had learnt to say NO but had been bullied and pushed into wearing a bridle again and again anyway. Robert has only had him for a few weeks but I am sure that with Pat's team and Robert's amazing skill and patience this horse will be able to go on and live up to his potential without having to be battled into his bridle everyday.

These are just my thoughts anyway
		
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Mmmmmmm, this is from someone who has not posted since May 07 and then only on Pareli?
Suspicious???? You bet!


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## Weezy (10 July 2010)

laura77 said:



			Hi Weezy,

no, in MY opinion that horse was not scared or distressed.  I think we may have to agree to disagree on that which is fine.
		
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No disagreement from me, I have not seen any footage and as I have said earlier, I will reserve judgement until I see some   It was merely a question, as usually horses who break free and run ARE distressed, i.e. the flight instinct kicks in


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## Weezy (10 July 2010)

elsbells said:



			Mmmmmmm, this is from someone who has not posted since May 07 and then only on Pareli?
Suspicious???? You bet!
		
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What on earth are you suspicious about?!  She does have the right not to post unless she wants to!  So, Laura is a Parelli follower, that is her call, and she has the right to defend what SHE saw last night if she so wants to.


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## Katikins (10 July 2010)

My old KWPN had serious bridling problems which resorted to me (after the vet having checked everything out) each and every time I rode having to take the bridle completely to pieces, first place headpiece over head, then attach brow band etc etc.  It took a lot of work and assistance and she will still have off days but she came around and is now 99% perfect for her new owners.  If you had tried to strap her down like this I shudder to think of the damage she would have done to herself and those around her in her panic.

And the thing that infuriates me is that this isn't something that is verging on abuse going on behind closed doors but being given as a demonstrations by someone who (rightly or wrongly) is looked up to and see as a role model to many many less experienced horse people.  I dread to think what will happen if someone else decides to try this at home.

Keep refreshing my youtube search waiting for a vid!!


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## Weezy (10 July 2010)

Indeed Katkins, that is the danger of it - people watching extreme handling and thinking *oh right, I can try that*, it is scary.


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## Sparkles (10 July 2010)

So tell me Laura.

How is gum twitching and tying it's forlock to his leg 'natural'  and fair to the horse on any level? I'm not saying I disagree or agree with these methods...BUT, if you're going to do them, do not dare to label it under Natural Horsemanship.

Surely, if a horse has that much of a deep rooted problem, then you'd start from scratch and gain it's trust [their version of the words too] as the problem began as a youngster. So as Brighteyes said, wading in there with such force and directness surely any idiot can see is NOT going to work?
If the horse is that objectional, then putting such direct pressure and restraint [ie, tying it] on it, will NOT help him mentally or other.

If you're going to preach your version of these 'godly' games and religion of training horses 'naturally with trust, love, understanding and relationships' then ropes ties and force should not come into it to get the desired result.  

I'm no Parelli fan at all and quite honestly, this 'show' doesn't surprise me in the slightest. Surely this has to speak words in itself.

But again JMO.

Maybe, as I obviously don't have the intellect to understand 'their way', you could care to enlighten me with reasoning to the above.


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## Elsbells (10 July 2010)

Weezy said:



			What on earth are you suspicious about?!  She does have the right not to post unless she wants to!  So, Laura is a Parelli follower, that is her call, and she has the right to defend what SHE saw last night if she so wants to.
		
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Because I don't believe her and I don't believe that she's a genuine poster, that is why, straight and simple and I make no apologies for it. Although  am sorry if your offended by that but I'm as mad as a snake about it all.

I was there, I saw the abuse and if anone else hog tied and twitched a horse out the front of your house, you would of called the police would you not?


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## ester (10 July 2010)

feel a little dim but what is a gum line? when you say used a gum line to twitch?

just trying to make sure I get what happened right!


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## natalia (10 July 2010)

I've had A LOT of horses who have been difficult to bridle and three who have been really extreme. NEVER have I had to go to lengths like these to sort them out. I have in the past had horse in a head collar with a rope from headcollar tied to his foreleg so he can't lift head or run away but only after exploring any underlaying issues with the horse. A horse tied to itself in this way quickly figures out he can't move off and normally won't try to, our chap who came in and had this treatment was basically taking the pee out of his owner and after a weeks work problem was solved and he could be tacked up loose in a stable. Taking the whole bridle apart is also an option, but really there are a hundred different ways to get a difficult to bridle horse to accept it, I don't see this parelli method as doing any good at all esp. as horses who are normally bad to bridle are sensitive to having their faces touched, so twitching often makes them worse.


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## ester (10 July 2010)

just thought I might post this as a comparison

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqh26NPT79s


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## Sparkles (10 July 2010)

Just for interest....




			EAR SHY? By Pat Parelli
Can you touch your husband's ears? What about your best friend's, your child's or your mother's? 
If you couldn't then there's probably something wrong with the relationship! This is how I want you to think of your horse's so-called 'problem'. If he doesn't like his ears to be touched its because deep down inside, he does not trust you. There is a flaw in your relationship. 
When I talk about the solution here I am going to give you the natural approach, the one that consider's the horse's point of view. To effect a 'cure' you have to gain his trust and permission. The normal way is often to force the horse to accept it, twitch him, tie him, throw him&#8230;. In my mind (and in the horse's I'm sure) this is akin to rape and I won't use it. 
So to do it with the horse's permission may seem to take a little time, technique and knowledge, but if you do it right you won't have to do it over
		
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Indeed....


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## angelish (10 July 2010)

"pass the popcorn"
oh mine won't have "its" mane pulled think ill go tie all "its" legs together ,then tie his jaw to his knees ,then ill be able to pull away as much as i want 

on a more serious note some idiots would actually go home and do this 

why does't rob just take bridle apart etc ,there are ways around this problem and after all its his grooms that would have to faf about
i once watched a horse showjumping ,think it was a nations cup in spruce medows a few year ago with no bridle , just had the bit in his mouth ,there was prob a strap of some sort holding it there but it is possible
my old mare had a prob with her bridle some days you'd get it on others she argued.
i tried ridding in just a snaffle and reins no bridle at all and she was fine (see idiots do copy the pros lol ) i could ride her with just rope round her neck though (not parelli) so if it did drop out i wasn't really going anywere but only ever did it in the school.
it didn't half make me keep a contact and did our schooling the world of good although it was pretty stupid of me so DONT TRY THIS AT HOME


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## Elsbells (10 July 2010)

Scuse me, while I nip to the yard and hobble, twitch my burnt out, chucked in the towel and very disobedient ex-grade B showjumper mare for a couple of hours.

It took me nearly a year of patience and damm hard work for her to trust me, for her to offer her head to be stroked, her ears and nose to be cleaned and for to be willingly bridled. But what Pat showed us last night proves what a great waste of time that was!!

Wish I knew before.


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## natalia (10 July 2010)

We can ALL learn a lot from this guys channel on you tube-

http://www.youtube.com/user/endospink#p/u/0/gsLt-j0N5tw

I think he could teach Pat Parelli a thing or two!


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## Sparkles (10 July 2010)

I'm not arguing the extent of the horses problem, it obviously is not your normal 'no, shan't, can't, won't' case where a simple thing like taking the bridle apart will solve. 
I fully understand how bad the horse must be with the bridling issue.

I don't however, understand the justification of the things mentioned previously....that's where I want the reasoning explained by anywho who can.

They say people 'don't understand', so enlighten me.

Edited - I also rate Endo and always liked watching his vids for an 'alternative' way of dealing with problems. He doesn't claim to be anything but himself nor false labels it 'Natural Horsemansip'.


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## Chestnuttymare (10 July 2010)

I would be really interested to see video of this. It sounds just awful though. I have posted before that my mare was helped by a parelli/really smart horsewoman.  At no time was my mare hurt, she would have reacted badly  to any form of aggression. She was never battered by carrot stick, clip on rope or anything else. i wouldn't have allowed that to happen. She worked with the 2 of us to get the mutual respect and trust thing. I went from having a total neurotic, aggressive, frightened horse who scared the pants off me,  to having a brilliant riding horse who i have an amazing bond and relationship with.  We have been together for 7 years now and I can safely say that it was the help i had from the p word plus good horsemanship that dug us out of a big hole. I am not saying that nothing else would have done the job, but that is what presented itself to me at the time and I am truly grateful to this lady and the method that she used.  I used it as a means to an end, as I just wanted her sane enough to bring on and ride, which we do on a daily basis,  So haven't done any of the games for quite some time.  I had no interest in taking the games or levels any further than i did.

However, I did see the linda P thing with the half blind horse and found it disgusting. What I have seen there and what i have heard here about catwalk, seems to bear no resemblance to the methods that were used for us.  What has happened to these people to make them seem so extreme now?  Have they just got too big for their boots or what?
To be honest, I wouldn't dream of going to any of their demos now or really associate myself with any of it at all now, it seems that it has grown into a monster!

I think if you saw the lady who helped me and some of her liveries working with some of their horses, you would change your mind about the 'old' parelli. It is kind, done with really subtle body language and all the horses are happy and stressless.


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## ester (10 July 2010)

natalia said:



			We can ALL learn a lot from this guys channel on you tube-

http://www.youtube.com/user/endospink#p/u/0/gsLt-j0N5tw

I think he could teach Pat Parelli a thing or two!
		
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just watched the latest back flip vid, he does have some pretty quick reactions...


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## rushyj (10 July 2010)

I am actually sitting here simmering trying to tone down anything I might post but in essence if any good has come out of this maybe just maybe people may just think twice about all of the NH c**p.

What happened to the old days where people got hands on experience with horses and learnt through years of experience to read what a horses concerns may be and reacted accordingly.  I am sick to the back teeth of being patronised by these NH and Parelli sheep who follow this like a religious cult.  

In conclusion if your too scared to get on your horse and actually ride it through a situation then get a suitable horse stop ruining youngsters and sharper horses just trying to up your ranking from a novice rider.  If your a novice deal with it and don't tell me I just don't understand the methods I don't want to understand I want to ride my horse and if it naps send it forward in a saddle with a tree and a bit that works!!!!!!!!!!!

Rant over sorry....


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## Trinity Fox (10 July 2010)

Although i think parelli is a load of tripe, could those of you who agree with its use explain how tying down or forcing a horse to submit could ever make it confident or happy in what it is doing.  Horses are by nature flight animals and their greatest fear is to become trapped or enclosed or restricted in some way, I have no doubt this may make the horse comply  in the future rather than being subjected to the same tratment.  
However horses that are ill treated or beaten until they do what they are asked also learn to comply and this is the same if you are subjected to something unpleasent you do whatever  it takes to make it stop this does not mean that you are happy or relaxed with the task being asked, this can only truly be acheived if you can ask your horse to do something and it does so without force being used, Only then can you claim to have been succesful.


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## pinktiger (10 July 2010)

BSJAlove said:



			*drags in a chair and sits down with the popcorn (sweet)*  

natural horsemanship?? my arse!
		
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pulls sofa in* offers seats and malteasers*


why on earth would  2 'business men'  who know (allegedly) horses try and deal with an obv very difficult stallion to bridle in front of spectators !! how ridiculas and what a silly thing to try and do!!!!!   Would be interested to know how robert has got the bridle on in the past and mayb question why this horse is still a stallion!!!!    Im totally gobsmacked and love to see newbies coming in now with a different view from the rest of the people that saw it!!!  'how odd'  and that truley sums up my whole feeling about pat parelli!!


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## HappyHorses:) (10 July 2010)

I think I'm going to kick my colt in his knackers next time he looks at a mare. That should make me dominant over him 

Seriously tho, I was disgusted at the video of Linda P but would like to see a video of Roberts horse before I can comment as I have never followed parelli before seeing a post on here.

I've always watched Monty Roberts with intrest as his way of training seems fair. That video I saw of Linda was shocking no excuses for treating, what appeared to be a gentle horse, like that no matter what point your trying to prove.


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## Jennyharvey (10 July 2010)

Please dont label all NH is ****.  Its not the method, its the people.  Most people who train using NH techniques do not treat their horses in the way described on this thread.  
Its unfair to say that all NH methods are **** because of the handful of people who give it a bad name.  If people dislike parelli, fine, but parelli is only a very small amount of people the world over who do amazing things with horses using NH methods.
Whats important for me is all the other amazing horse trainers out there doing amazing things with horses, instead of focusing on a few individuals who give all a bad name.


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## BSJAlove (10 July 2010)

pinktiger said:



			pulls sofa in* offers seats and malteasers*
		
Click to expand...

yum yum!!  these posts are always entertaining. i end up shouting at the screen but decide best not to say what im thinking  other then i think NH is pointless.


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## Sparkles (10 July 2010)

^ I've been asking the same. 

The answer always just seems to be 'You just don't understand our methods'...which in itself, doesn't help anyone try to begin to understand either. It seems to be the same uninformative answer everytime anyone ever questions their motives to a certain 'event'
. It's the same as the unhelpful 'Oh you're too young to understand' reply,when it fact, there is no reasoning most the time, just lack of bother.


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## rushyj (10 July 2010)

I apologise for my tone in the earlier post but really all it is is body language which most of us have mastered years ago..  How many experienced people do you know who can predict which foot a horse will move next it is not a miracle it is body language.......


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## Chestnuttymare (10 July 2010)

trinity fox - that is the thing, when I was learning the basic p stuff with my mare, the emphasis was on allowing them to move their feet, long lead rein, never tying them down and restricting them. So what is all this tying the leg up to make the poor horse hobble on 3 legs. The very thing to make a horse panic. I just really don't understand it now. My mare was never restricrted in any way, even down to no noseband lol.
How can anyone say that the horse wasn't distressed and where was the dignity in all this??


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## rushyj (10 July 2010)

Binky01 said:



			^ I've been asking the same. 

The answer always just seems to be 'You just don't understand our methods'...which in itself, doesn't help anyone try to begin to understand either. It seems to be the same uninformative answer everytime anyone ever questions their motives to a certain 'event'
. It's the same as the unhelpful 'Oh you're too young to understand' reply,when it fact, there is no reasoning most the time, just lack of bother.
		
Click to expand...

I go back to calling it a cult..... same as "God moves in Mysterious Ways" whenever there is a question they can't answer *power munching maltesers in hopes of simmering lol*


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## Munchkin (10 July 2010)

The Parelli cult have noticed this thread on Facebook and are laying into us too... makes for fairly interesting reading. They're also attempting to explain what they saw there, which makes for even more interesting reading.

I may set up a group of my own and find out how many like-minded horsepeople are out there.


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## rushyj (10 July 2010)

Munchkin said:



			The Parelli cult have noticed this thread on Facebook and are laying into us too... makes for fairly interesting reading. They're also attempting to explain what they saw there, which makes for even more interesting reading.

I may set up a group of my own and find out how many like-minded horsepeople are out there.
		
Click to expand...

I'm with you.........


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## domane (10 July 2010)

I would think that there are a lot of sad and disillusioned PP followers out there today.  Both of their "leaders" have now disgraced themselves within a year of each other but I'm not judging the group as a whole because of two bad apples at the top of the tree.  I'm not altogether sure that 2010 will be the best year for their income and profits (whoops, did I say that out loud??)  

I dabbled a bit with very basic P myself with my TB but I didn't like waggling the long line at him to "make" him back up so I stopped.  He's 15, I'm a grandmother and we pootle along fine, so we don't need the hassle, frankly.


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## rushyj (10 July 2010)

I can believe there has been no welfare come backs it has been announced will be an ongoing thing for this horses near future surely someone in authority will step in?


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## cloudandmatrix (10 July 2010)

that poor poor horse. makes me sick people get away with what is basically horse abusive, because its "natural horsemanship"...
when we moved matrix, away from the *******s who broke him and made him headshy behind our backs, he was pretty headshy. did i reach for the carrot stick and ropes...
no. i just used patience, let him tell me when he had been pushed enough- trust me, he wasnt quiet about it! and with time got the the stage where he trusts me enough to handle his ears put a bridle on etc, without any fuss
what upsets me though, is that if i tell him off verbally without any contact, for say biting my shirt the first thing he does is throw his head in the air- because in the past people have hit him and grabbed his nose can only imagine how bad Catwalk will be


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## Munchkin (10 July 2010)

http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/group.php?gid=136894269668892

Et voila


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## cloudandmatrix (10 July 2010)

brilliant munchkin.


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## eahotson (10 July 2010)

domane said:



			I would think that there are a lot of sad and disillusioned PP followers out there today.  Both of their "leaders" have now disgraced themselves within a year of each other but I'm not judging the group as a whole because of two bad apples at the top of the tree.  I'm not altogether sure that 2010 will be the best year for their income and profits (whoops, did I say that out loud??)  

I dabbled a bit with very basic P myself with my TB but I didn't like waggling the long line at him to "make" him back up so I stopped.  He's 15, I'm a grandmother and we pootle along fine, so we don't need the hassle, frankly.
		
Click to expand...

Domane.Thats what happened to me.We were suposed to be NH stuff at camp and I have no issue with that, but it was pure Parelli and I was standing there swinging this wretched rope when I thought Why am I doing this? He is not enjoying it, I am not.He backs up perfectly well when asked in a way he understands.So I stopped.I was suposed to be swinging this wretched heavy clip ever harder.I bought my boy as a confidence restorer and he has been super for me.It seemed a poor way to repay him.My INSTRUCTOR started off by talking herself up, subtext if you don't get anything outof this, the fault is yours.Its verging on a cult and there is a lot of brain washing.


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## teagreen (10 July 2010)

It honestly is like a new religion - when you read the quite incredible comments about love and how all of us are 'looking but not seeing' on Facebook, it is absolutely like these people are preaching about some strange cult. 

And to think the showing was booted out the main arena for this display of abuse. I think the fact that this Parelli pair are oh so quick to jump and defend their actions speaks volumes.


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## PapaFrita (10 July 2010)

Munchkin said:



			The Parelli cult have noticed this thread on Facebook and are laying into us too... makes for fairly interesting reading. They're also attempting to explain what they saw there, which makes for even more interesting reading.

I may set up a group of my own and find out how many like-minded horsepeople are out there.
		
Click to expand...

I find the blind acceptance that what PP was upto must've been fine just as disturbing if not MORE so than the people who dismiss Parelli as a load of rubbish. What exactly is WRONG with questioning practices you don't understand or agree with and what is WRONG with requesting an explanation???


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## cloudandmatrix (10 July 2010)

can someone link me to the P peoples compalints- i would be very interested to read...


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## PapaFrita (10 July 2010)

domane said:



			I would think that there are a lot of sad and disillusioned PP followers out there today.  Both of their "leaders" have now disgraced themselves within a year of each other
		
Click to expand...

Sadly I don't think Parelli devotees will see it that way; from what I've read on FB even there is NO questioning, just mute acceptance of what the Parellis do must all be fine and done with LOVE. And some of them are praying for those of us who don't understand the horse's 'true dignity'
The smell of BS is overpowering.


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## Weezy (10 July 2010)

Linkage to the Facebook stuff please


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## rhino (10 July 2010)

http://www.facebook.com/#!/ParelliNaturalHorseTraining?ref=ts


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## Munchkin (10 July 2010)

http://www.facebook.com/ParelliNaturalHorseTraining?ref=ts

ETA: In case you missed it the first time


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## brighteyes (10 July 2010)

*ponydentist* has promised to report back with his thoughts soon as he's home and dry.  Might well be after tea, though. He wondered had the thread had much of a response!

I for one will be very interested in his angle on it.


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## Weezy (10 July 2010)

Bleurgh, it scares me reading all of the drooling over on FB 

I really, REALLY need to see the video!


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## Django Pony (10 July 2010)

I'm going to Stoneleigh tomorrow, I'll report back!


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## eahotson (10 July 2010)

Its strange really that they haven't put the video up themselves.If it was all so wonderful why not? You will also note that there is a Parelli pavillion at Stonleigh.


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## Kiribati_uk (10 July 2010)

How the hell does forcing half a ton a flesh to do something help? The is a little shetland who is nanny to the babies here and he is tiny i love to see Pat tie him up an make him conform!!


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## DragonSlayer (10 July 2010)

We have a 17.2 Shire X who was EVIL when we got him.

Bridle him? Not a chance...he had been doped....and we found out later the previous owners had to twitch him on his lip AND ears and he was rammed into a corner...

You know what? 9 years later, not a bother to bridle at all, and has been for the last 8 years....it took time, but we got there....

PATIENCE.

He learnt to trust us. This once-was-horrid horse is now the best mannered beastie on our yard....


No fancy tricks, rope-twirling or stick-waving for us.


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## SVMel (10 July 2010)

Loving the fact that someone on that fb link has said that us HHO Parelli haters don't make for nice reading ..... lmao.


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## Natch (10 July 2010)

If people did but do a bit of independent thinking, parelli would be nothing but an empty hyped up trade stand at shows.

I am truly shocked by what is reported to have happened, especially after seeing the quote from pat about "twitching etc is akin to rape and i would never use that". Cough cough Mr P. 

Agree with others that the horse needed time and gentle, firm, consistant handling. Not tied up twitched hobbled and forced. Where is the dignity to preserve Pat, from the second you got the gum line twitch out.

I'm also interested to know what was used as the gumline twitch, as I have seen another supposedly natural horseman use a metal chain - can you imagine how much pain that would cause?!

I think their statement release is absolutely an attempt to justify a disgusting act.

I would put seriously high money on the fact that if it were Monty Roberts doing the demo trying to get the horse to accept a bridle, this thread would be non-existant or singing his praises. If Robert Whittaker has the money to splash out on expensive "experts," he should have gone to him.


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## Bojangles (10 July 2010)

Poor horse!!! Mine was very head shy I would never think of doing it this way!!! What a load of tosh!!!! Time and loads of patince sp?? Anyone find the cilp yet?? Im not surpise that the head groom about to walk out I think I would have to held back otherwise he would of got hit and told to bugger off!!!!!!!


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## Tinypony (10 July 2010)

I want to see this before I say too much, but my first thoughts are dammit, here go Parelli giving the whole "nh" movement a bad name again.  
It's patronising to assume that people don't understand what they are seeing, sometimes fresh eyes see the truth.  As an ex-Parelli student all I can say is, whatever happened to "Take the time it takes"?   
	
	
		
		
	


	




  I never realised that meant tying the horse down, using a gumline as a twitch and abusing the creature for 2 hours.


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## Natch (10 July 2010)

Just wanted to add, when pat says of those who were upset by what they saw; "We all have nothing to worry about except misunderstanding." - I''ve seen parelli several unortunate times, and each time I have "Misundestood" the logic behind it. I waited an hour once to be told WHY they were winding foals up in 12ft lines (nope, your guess is still as good as mine). And I'm someone who _likes_ natural horsemanship/groundwork/call it what you will. If your viewers consistently can't understand why you are doing something that is considered extreme or unusual, surely you should explain yourself better (or at all?).


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## SillySausage (10 July 2010)

Can somebody please post me the link to the video of Linda Parelli with the half blind horse? Have lost it and would like to show somebody it!


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## rhino (10 July 2010)

GrandPrixToBe said:



			Can somebody please post me the link to the video of Linda Parelli with the half blind horse? Have lost it and would like to show somebody it!
		
Click to expand...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyF2QqP29DU


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## Munchkin (10 July 2010)

Naturally said:



			Just wanted to add, when pat says of those who were upset by what they saw; "We all have nothing to worry about except misunderstanding." - I''ve seen parelli several unortunate times, and each time I have "Misundestood" the logic behind it. I waited an hour once to be told WHY they were winding foals up in 12ft lines (nope, your guess is still as good as mine). And I'm someone who _likes_ natural horsemanship/groundwork/call it what you will. If your viewers consistently can't understand why you are doing something that is considered extreme or unusual, surely you should explain yourself better (or at all?).
		
Click to expand...

Indeed.

Both times I've seen one of his displays (I didn't last very long through either of them) he began by pointing out how cruel anyone who competes their horses is (dressage/jumping/eventing/showing/barrel racing etc) immediately getting on side everyone who doesn't or cannot do those things.  It seems this remains his following; I've never once met a successul horse person in any of those fields who has a moment to consider Pat Parelli and his commercialised tripe.  Well, until now that is - Robert Whitaker has surprised me! I suspect there was a financial agreement involved, though.


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## rhino (10 July 2010)

Munchkin said:



			I've never once met a successul horse person in any of those fields who has a moment to consider Pat Parelli and his commercialised tripe.
		
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The O'Connors - USA Eventing - were Parelli exponents a few years ago, I remember getting a free DVD with one of the horse magazines. Don't know if they still are though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImzUgnhV-EU


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## marble (10 July 2010)

Munchkin, me thinks you have hit nail on head, pity it was not PP though, looks as if money raised its ugly head yet again, and all you knowledgeable HH people, do the whittakers own Catwalk, and if not, I wonder what the owner thinks.....and also more bad publicity for show-jumping.....


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## Munchkin (10 July 2010)

I'm sorry Roo but that's not Parelli, it's riding bridleless, which a lot of people can do... in fact most people who have learnt to ride correctly using their leg and seat rather than relying on their hands.


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## Tinypony (10 July 2010)

I suppose Ray Hunt wouldn't be considered a success on H+H forum.   Although, were he still around, I'm not sure what he'd have had to say about this.  
Ray Hunt and Carl Hester took part in the annual conference, during the time when UK Parelli was temporarily Equine Ethology.


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## Nic (10 July 2010)

From the Parelli FB page:
*
Parelli Natural Horsemanship
Parelli Natural Horsemanship* Guess what?! TOP international event rider, Georgie Spence will be having a lesson with Linda Parelli as part of Savvy Club Sunday at the Royal Festival of the Horse this weekend. More information on Tumblr!

Hmmmm


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## rhino (10 July 2010)

Munchkin said:



			I'm sorry Roo but that's not Parelli, it's riding bridleless, which a lot of people can do... in fact most people who have learnt to ride correctly using their leg and seat rather than relying on their hands.
		
Click to expand...

Yes - but it's at a Parelli conference, and the only clip I could find online. There was a lot more 'Parelli' stuff on the DVD.

I completely agree with everything you say on the thread, by the way, I am not pro-parelli by any means!


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## Munchkin (10 July 2010)

Okay I take it back... just got to a scene with a carrot stick!


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## Munchkin (10 July 2010)

Nicoleak0 said:



			From the Parelli FB page:
*
Parelli Natural Horsemanship
Parelli Natural Horsemanship* Guess what?! TOP international event rider, Georgie Spence will be having a lesson with Linda Parelli as part of Savvy Club Sunday at the Royal Festival of the Horse this weekend. More information on Tumblr!

Hmmmm
		
Click to expand...

Am I the only one who has a sudden urge to go to the Festival of the Horse tomorrow?


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## Weezy (10 July 2010)

I have the urge too LOL!


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## brighteyes (10 July 2010)

I can't imagine what justification there will be for what sounds to have been more than a very simple and light mechanical restraint. Even so, I am trying hard to see both sides and give him the benefit of the doubt.  I really do wish I could see what happened and not merely be swayed by second-hand reports and other's interpretations.  All of me wants this to be blown out of all proportion. 

I am not a fan of any twitching but have seen the nose version work on one animal as I think it is meant to - inducing an almost instant 'snooze'.  It was actually used on veterinary instruction pending his arrival, to take the edge off a colic.  It wouldn't have worked with any of mine who fight even the idea of it.  That PP did it in this particular case makes me very uneasy indeed.

I wonder if he might go and learn how to do Endospink's full tap (I believe you can buy the DVD of it, Mr P) and relax Catwalk that way instead...


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## Teddybully (10 July 2010)

Wasn't there but if it was as described then it makes me wonder what these demonstrations are for?  'Things to try at home' maybe??!!  Who are they aimed at?

Presuming that many Parelli enthusiasts are novices - how on earth is it right to demonstrate twitching and hobbling?

I just don't get it.  Money, money , money...that's all it's about.


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## 3BayGeldings (10 July 2010)

Did anyone see them work with Rob's horse at the British Open?

ETA: what Robert wrote in his British Open blog:

In between my classes today I took Rooney down to the Parelli Zone. He can be a bit nervous sometimes so my mate James Robert, who practices Parelli training methods, tried some &#8220;natural horsemanship&#8221; on him. I must say it does seem to have improved him and he seems better already although obviously nothing is fixed overnight! Very interesting to see this work in action


Robert won't continue to let PP work on his horses if he objected to it, so it will be interesting to see whether he does.


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## Supertrooper (10 July 2010)

I have never been a great fan of parelli but you know I don't know a huge amount about it but I go with my gut instinct and it makes me uncomfortable. I've seen a few of their demos at shows, funny that they say it's natural and we ride with no saddle or bridles yet the rider I saw was wearing spurs!

I've just watched the clip with linda parelli and the blind horse and it disgusts me, what did they actually want the poor thing to do! It seemed to me that the reason it was moving away all the time was cause she was flinging the rope at it's constantly!!

In my opinion these techniques that they use to I'm sorry dominate horses, in my words that's what it is, is due to them being **** horse people and scared of the animals hence using aggressive techniques.

Just a shame they've got a band of brain washed people sucked in and even more of a shame for the poor horses that have to put up with it, just shows how passive horses really are cause it that was me on the other end of that rope i'd being doing more than that poor mare!!


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## KS1 (10 July 2010)

I haven't read all the posts as there are so any and they say roughly the same thing so do excuse me if I repeat anything already said.

I do know that the H&H site is anti Parelli to start with so I was very interested to see what views where given on the demo yesterday evening.

I have been using PNH for 7 years now and have always gained postive and remarkable results. 
My YO and others have even commentated at how well behaved and happy my horses are. However I don't stick to PNH solely, I use whatever works for my horses giving them the happy life they deserve.
I went along to the evening PNH demo yesterday evening and it starteed in the usual way that I have seen countless times but I know they need to do all the usual intro's for people new to Parelli.

Anyway.. in came Catwalk,,  I beautiful 7 yr old Stallion, he was calm and inquisitive and considering he had just been with Robert 8 weeks then put into this demo I thought he coped brilliantly.

Pat talked as he walked around the arena but he isn't just ambling around, if Catwalk went too far ahead Pat changed direction so that he was always the leader and Catwalk followed. It also give Catwalk the opportunity to absorb the surroundings and noises.

Pat spent time getting Catwalk used to being handled around his ears, eyes, head and muzzle. 
He tied Catwalks leg up to that he was unable to place it down, it doesn't stop Catwalk moving around as someone here stated but it does make it more difficult and yes when Catwalk frst tried to move he went down on the tied leg but it did not distress him. Pat showed how he could quickly release the line if needed to for safety.

However I did not think there was anything natural about doing this and was disappointed to see it being carried out.

The saddle pad, this was brought in and used to desensitize Catwalk to having something placed over his head. This is not cruel, in fact it was nice to see a change in Catwalk, he softened and relaxed and was quite happy for the pad to go over his head.

This to me is the point where Pat should have Stopped..

Instead he carried on, putting his string into Catwalks mouth over his top gum was to me cruel, there was no need for this and again not natural in the slightest, I was appalled to see Monty Roberts use a similar technique which he calls a "Bucking Stap" and even more appalled to see Pat do this. A second line at one stage was put on Catwalk leg and I thought Pat would have explained why he did but whether I missed it I don't know but I never heard any explanation.

I can't remember at what point the string went into Catwalks mouth but the demo started at 7pm with talking for approx 30min, then Catwalk came in around 7.30pm approx. I left at 9.40pm and it was still going on. My mate said as I left Linda was going into the arena but I can't comment as I never saw what happened.

By the time my mate and I left we could only witrness Catwalk getting more distressed and fighting Pat more. On my journey home I said to me mate "I understand and follow PNH and I was shocked to see what went on, what on earth are those who watched PNH for the first time going to think and I am looking forward to hearing comments on H&H which I know there will be"

So for those that were disgusted with yesterdays performance I totally agree with you. 

I am not there today (Sat) but I am back Sunday so it will be interesting to see if there is any improvement.

Now to see what was said on the Savvy Forum


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## 3Beasties (10 July 2010)

Sounds horrific   Why did Linda have her hands over her face? Was that because she couldn't stand what she was seeing?

I really don't understand what Parelli is meant to achieve, they give natural horsemanship a bad name


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## Munchkin (10 July 2010)

KS1 - did they give the horse a break from the twitch? As everyone knows (I would hope) that they shouldn't be left on for more than a few minutes at a time.


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## KS1 (10 July 2010)

Supertrooper said:



			Just a shame they've got a band of brain washed people sucked in and even more of a shame for the poor horses that have to put up with it, just shows how passive horses really are cause it that was me on the other end of that rope i'd being doing more than that poor mare!!
		
Click to expand...

Careful your branding people here, I find what you said offensive, I follow PHN and other methods and I am certainly NOT brain washed. There is a lot of abuse to horses from those such as aggressive showjumpers, dressage riders and eventers, who after all whip, kick, use spurs over flex, over use gadgets, put spike on poles in practice to make horses lift their legs  blah blah, Yet thousands o fpeople follow these sports, are they too brain washed? 

Not all people who follow PNH are brain washed, some yes lol but not all of us


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## perfect11s (10 July 2010)

Just curious..  where does the  BHS stand  on parelli???


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## DanielleAngel (10 July 2010)

I was literally eating a bag of popcorn whilst reading upto page 8 I think 

All I have to say is...
The only REAL NH I know about is the good ol' native american indians.

All this other drivle is just over-rated, over publicised horse sense...without the sense.
I can't believe such a well known rider like RW handed any one of his horses over to this shame of a trainer. Yet another rider who's lost 100% of my respect.

That endospink guy on youtube is quite something though, loving the way he doesn't call himself a NH trainer xD amen, we need more people like him lol.

*nom nom sweet popcorn ^^*


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## Changes (10 July 2010)

KS1 said:



			Careful your branding people here, I find what you said offensive, I follow PHN and other methods and I am certainly NOT brain washed. There is a lot of abuse to horses from those such as aggressive showjumpers, dressage riders and eventers, who after all whip, kick, use spurs over flex, over use gadgets, put spike on poles in practice to make horses lift their legs  blah blah, *Yet thousands of people follow these sports, are they too brain washed? *

Click to expand...

No, because they are aware that certain practitioners of all sports act with cruelty. Parelli sells itself on how natural and kind it is, when clearly, it's not.


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## brighteyes (10 July 2010)

KS1 said:



			I haven't read all the posts as there are so any and they say roughly the same thing so do excuse me if I repeat anything already said.

I do know that the H&H site is anti Parelli to start with so I was very interested to see what views where given on the demo yesterday evening.

I have been using PNH for 7 years now and have always gained postive and remarkable results. 
My YO and others have even commentated at how well behaved and happy my horses are. However I don't stick to PNH solely, I use whatever works for my horses giving them the happy life they deserve.
I went along to the evening PNH demo yesterday evening and it starteed in the usual way that I have seen countless times but I know they need to do all the usual intro's for people new to Parelli.

Anyway.. in came Catwalk,,  I beautiful 7 yr old Stallion, he was calm and inquisitive and considering he had just been with Robert 8 weeks then put into this demo I thought he coped brilliantly.

Pat talked as he walked around the arena but he isn't just ambling around, if Catwalk went too far ahead Pat changed direction so that he was always the leader and Catwalk followed. It also give Catwalk the opportunity to absorb the surroundings and noises.

Pat spent time getting Catwalk used to being handled around his ears, eyes, head and muzzle.  Yep, happy with all that.

He tied Catwalks leg up to that he was unable to place it down, it doesn't stop Catwalk moving around as someone here stated but it does make it more difficult and yes when Catwalk frst tried to move he went down on the tied leg but it did not distress him. Pat showed how he could quickly release the line if needed to for safety.Hmmmm, not sure, now

However I did not think there was anything natural about doing this and was disappointed to see it being carried out.

The saddle pad, this was brought in and used to desensitize Catwalk to having something placed over his head. This is not cruel, in fact it was nice to see a change in Catwalk, he softened and relaxed and was quite happy for the pad to go over his head.

This to me is the point where Pat should have Stopped..Yes! Absolutely

Instead he carried on, putting his string into Catwalks mouth over his top gum was to me cruel, there was no need for this and again not natural in the slightest, I was appalled to see Monty Roberts use a similar technique which he calls a "Bucking Stap" and even more appalled to see Pat do this. A second line at one stage was put on Catwalk leg and I thought Pat would have explained why he did but whether I missed it I don't know but I never heard any explanation.

I can't remember at what point the string went into Catwalks mouth but the demo started at 7pm with talking for approx 30min, then Catwalk came in around 7.30pm approx. I left at 9.40pm and it was still going on. My mate said as I left Linda was going into the arena but I can't comment as I never saw what happened.

By the time my mate and I left we could only witrness Catwalk getting more distressed and fighting Pat more. On my journey home I said to me mate "I understand and follow PNH and I was shocked to see what went on, what on earth are those who watched PNH for the first time going to think and I am looking forward to hearing comments on H&H which I know there will be"

So for those that were disgusted with yesterdays performance I totally agree with you. 
Which is the way I am leaning.
I am not there today (Sat) but I am back Sunday so it will be interesting to see if there is any improvement.

Now to see what was said on the Savvy Forum
		
Click to expand...

Thank you for the calm and rational report.  It appears to be pretty much what I expected.


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## brighteyes (10 July 2010)

*DanielleAngel* Please, no nom-nomming on this thread... It's not the time, nor the place.


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## Munchkin (10 July 2010)

DanielleAngel said:



			All I have to say is...
The only REAL NH I know about is the good ol' native american indians.
*
		
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And the Australian bushmen such as Guy McLean. I watched him at the same show at which I saw Parelli and he blew him out of the water. 

On the final 4 nights of the show, all of the horsemen had an hour or two each (can't remember) with a horse brought down off the mountains, to see who could get the furthest with its training/breaking. (Had 3 roundpens set up in the arena.)  No force, in fact one guy's horse was so nervous he said it was unfair to push on and forfeited his "win" as it were.  He then bought the horse and took it home to work with it there instead!

Parelli wouldn't be involved in this and to be honest every single one of those guys would have shown him for what he really is. Loads of people were pushing for a Parelli vs Mclean standoff, now THAT I'd have paid to see...


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## QUICKFIRE (10 July 2010)

I had the misfortune to witness some of the fallout of Parelli training last night at a local show, Poor misguided girl maybe 14 yrs old brandishing her christmas presants (carrot stick, long rope and NH halter) and trying to get her pony to load into what looked like a home made trailer :-( girls parents were near by, one holding a bucket inside trailer, the other by the back of the box, both to me looking clueless.  Girl was leading pony to the ramp then stopping expecting pony to go in on his own, but at the same time pulling his head away and tapping him on the head with the stick, and swirling rope, all this achived was the poor pony getting head shy and backing up  :-(  .... girl then proceeded to pull faces and act a bit like Vicky Pollard because she noticed we were watching, but all this continued for at least 20 mins ...we drove off it was too painfull to watch, but no doubt pony will end up on project horses with a host of problems.


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## KS1 (10 July 2010)

Munchkin said:



			KS1 - did they give the horse a break from the twitch? As everyone knows (I would hope) that they shouldn't be left on for more than a few minutes at a time.
		
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Not in the time I was watching, the only release I saw was when there was no pressure applied but the string was not taken out of the horses mouth in the time I was there.

The ethod of using these gum straps appals me which is one reason I am anti Monty Roberts and thsi si the foirst time in my yeats with PNH that I have seen this practised.

I have read a lot of praise from other PNH followers and that is up to them but for me it was upsetting to see.

I know stallions need that bit more assertive handling and that years of learning to evade a bridle can't be corrected quickly and you need to have your wits about you with a stallion but Catwalk went from beinn relaxed to then getting more stressed again.

My mate had seen enough and I was both in pain and exhausted (with only having a few hrs sleep the night before due to pain) and that is why we left. Had I been well enough I'd have stayed till the end to see how Catwalks mental state was and at what point Pat quit

Was he still anxious and stressed or relaxed and at ease?


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## 3BayGeldings (10 July 2010)

Munchkin said:



			And the Australian bushmen such as Guy McLean. I watched him at the same show at which I saw Parelli and he blew him out of the water. 

On the final 4 nights of the show, all of the horsemen had an hour or two each (can't remember) with a horse brought down off the mountains, to see who could get the furthest with its training/breaking. (Had 3 roundpens set up in the arena.)  No force, in fact one guy's horse was so nervous he said it was unfair to push on and forfeited his "win" as it were.  He then bought the horse and took it home to work with it there instead!

Parelli wouldn't be involved in this and to be honest every single one of those guys would have shown him for what he really is. Loads of people were pushing for a Parelli vs Mclean standoff, now THAT I'd have paid to see...
		
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I love this poem of his  

http://www.abpa.org.au/Bush_Poetry/Modern_Poetry/the_horses_slave.html


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## soloequestrian (10 July 2010)

I haven't read the whole of this thread as it's so long now, but was there no way for anyone to question what was going on?  As in stand up and say 'stop being cruel to that horse'?  No idea if I would have, not having been there, but it sounds like a large proportion of the audience were disgusted?  Or perhaps it's owner should have?


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## KS1 (10 July 2010)

Changes said:



			No, because they are aware that certain practitioners of all sports act with cruelty. Parelli sells itself on how natural and kind it is, when clearly, it's not.
		
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Oh but yes they are, so many seminars I have attended that go on about how what they do is correct, is good for the horse blah blah.... and I have attended loads especially when I was training to be a dressage Judge. As a small example the BHS alway sstate about the safety and well being of the horse, and they do a great job but for the welfare of the horse using excessive gadgets and over use of leather and bits is not my idea of "Welfare for the horse" and they do push their methods onto those that follow the training etc.

Again not getting at the BHS here as they do a great job just giving a small example.

and again I state NOT all those that use a natural approach are brain washed


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## Weezy (10 July 2010)

I will continue to fail to understand why people think it is a great idea to subject their horses to these spectacles - taking a horse out of his safe environment, subjecting them to a new handler, lights, music, crowds, and then persisting in trying to teach it something new just goes beyond my comprehension.

If you have a problem then get someone out, whether that be a nagsman or a NH fanatic or anything in between, and work on the horse in the environment where you, the owner/rider, will have to carry out whatever it is you are trying to improve.

The whole *doing it for the audience* thing will never sit well with me.


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## Munchkin (10 July 2010)

Shamelessly re-advertising the group for the people who have joined us recently. I expect it to have 100 followers by the time I get back from abus... feeding the ponios.

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=136894269668892&ref=ts


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## Todmiester (10 July 2010)

After seeing other videos of thie 'team' treating horses I find it a disgrace and if this was Joe Blogs doing this the RSPCA would be saying it was animal abuse. Id be suing Parelli if he did that to my horse. Wonder how many hours of physio it will take to sort out the soft tissue damage.


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## Mavis Cluttergusset (10 July 2010)

I have just read the whole thread and found it very interesting!  I have never been interested in Parelli - I have a Kelly Marks Intelligent Horsemanship book somewhere, which I quite like - but the theory in that is quite logical to me and relies on doing things slowly in a way the horse understands. I just don't 'get' Parelli.  I bought a horse a few years ago from a notorious Dartford dealer who was well and truly screwed up mentally - he was absolutely not going to have a bridle on - ever. He would throw himself to the ground in preference to having anything on his head, he would go into a blind panic the minute you approached him with a bridle.  We got there, in the space of a few months, by being calm, consistent and doing things very very slowly in a way that ensured he was never hurt or pressurised. He got to the point where you could throw the reins over his head and bridle him quite normally, and anyone could do it.  I genuinely believe that the methods described above would have really had a profound effect on his already fragile mental state.

Parelli really does seem to have a strange hold over people though (in my limited experience).  A group of local people practice it - or something akin to it - and they all unfailingly follow the advice of their leader. I joined a lesson once and it was the biggest mistake Ive made in years.  Not once did anyone want to know the reasoning behind the way I rode/warmed up/my choice of tack - I was told I was wrong and that was it - end of.  It's that totally blinkered way of thinking that I find odd; Im open to learning new ways of doing things, new ways of thinking, and challenging my beliefs about things, but the Parelli people I know simply will not believe there is any other way.  And their horses are not the model of equine happiness (and health) either. 

Looking forward to seeing a video so I can make my own mind up - not that it needs much making up to be honest!


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## toffeesmarty (10 July 2010)

The main reason I didnt buy tickets for the Festival if the Horse is because I saw the Parellis were doing a demo and did not want to add my support to something to I ultimately think is so anti-horse.
Seems like my thoughts were justified. 
What a damn shame if this is what people will remember about this inaugural show.


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## outandabout (10 July 2010)

I'm sorry if this has been said already somewhere in the previous 14 pages but, as many people have observed, Parelli is a commercial enterprise.  Given all the flack that arose (rightly!) from the Linda Parelli/blind horse footage, does nobody else think it's really odd that they are putting their extremely carefully constructed image at risk in this way?  I don't practice Parelli or NH (and have no axe to grind!), I wasn't there and, like many others on this thread, would like to see any footage of this - it just seems so at odds with what they seem to preach.


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## flash1 (10 July 2010)

Is there a video of this anywhere? I would be interested in seeing it.


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## poops (10 July 2010)

So what sort of people follow Parelli, are there hundreds of them? I can't understand why they follow it and why they think these methods are ok?


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## Changes (10 July 2010)

KS1 said:



			Oh but yes they are, so many seminars I have attended that go on about how what they do is correct, is good for the horse blah blah.... and I have attended loads especially when I was training to be a dressage Judge. As a small example the BHS alway sstate about the safety and well being of the horse, and they do a great job but for the welfare of the horse using excessive gadgets and over use of leather and bits is not my idea of "Welfare for the horse" and they do push their methods onto those that follow the training etc.

Again not getting at the BHS here as they do a great job just giving a small example.

and again I state NOT all those that use a natural approach are brain washed
		
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Maybe I wasn't clear enough - followers of traditional sports see abuse within it and don't like it, people try and do something about it. I have yet to hear a Parelli convert find anything wrong with what Parelli do.


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## jrp204 (10 July 2010)

I just read out what happened to my husband and 15yr old daughter who then asked what Parelli 'did' and after telling her she said 'so basically its a load of ****!' Couldn't have put it better myself.


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## LMuirEDT (10 July 2010)

Someone MUST have a video of this somewhere to go on YouTube?!!!


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## Cinnamontoast (10 July 2010)

How many times do the Parellis have to f**K up before people stop licking their a***s? 

I don't object to treating your horse as naturally as possible within the limits of riding it, but I really bloody object to tying a horse's leg up and claiming that you are 'gaining it's trust'. Duh!


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## CastleMouse (10 July 2010)

I detest Parelli, and this 'incident' sounds horrific


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## Ignition (10 July 2010)

... doesn't "Tom Booker" tie Pilgrim's leg up in the Horse Whisperer?


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## PapaFrita (10 July 2010)

Ignition said:



			... doesn't "Tom Booker" tie Pilgrim's leg up in the Horse Whisperer?
		
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Yes, but it is _fiction_


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## rhino (10 July 2010)

Ignition said:



			... doesn't "Tom Booker" tie Pilgrim's leg up in the Horse Whisperer?
		
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Yes - and Monty Roberts wasn't happy with that association.


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## Berpisc (10 July 2010)

I dont like Parelli stuff, I do like others, even if I dont agree with all of their methods.  What I have seen recently puts me off even more.  The final rather creepy insult is to be told that if I disagree, I am by default stupid, I "dont understand".


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## Native Speaker (10 July 2010)

Poor, poor Catwalk ............... 

I remember him when he was a 3 y-o here at Marbach.  He was a super young horse with bags of talent.  Clearly (not pointing any fingers) something has gone wrong in the meantime, and to 'fall' into Parelli hands is not what this nice young stallion needs.  It's such a shame.........


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## PapaFrita (10 July 2010)

roo2012 said:



			Yes - and Monty Roberts wasn't happy with that association.
		
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Ohh yes, I remember Monty saying he didn't advocate that technique. Perhaps Tom Booker was based on PP? Nick Evans, when asked, said he wasn't based on MR.


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## SirenaXVI (10 July 2010)

Binky01 said:



			Edited - I also rate Endo and always liked watching his vids for an 'alternative' way of dealing with problems. He doesn't claim to be anything but himself nor false labels it 'Natural Horsemansip'.
		
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Agree Binks this guy uses his not inconsiderable skill as a true horseman, I love the way he just stays calm no matter what is thrown at him.  Not a gimmick or a label in sight.


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## TinselRider (10 July 2010)

SirenaXVI said:



			Agree Binks this guy uses his not inconsiderable skill as a true horseman, I love the way he just stays calm no matter what is thrown at him.  Not a gimmick or a label in sight.
		
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Another Endo fan here  I'm also rather intruiged by his "tap" technique.


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## JoJo_ (10 July 2010)

I have skim read the majority of this post and noticed there is only one user who is claiming the stallion wasnt distressed. Laura77 I believe? Is it a coincidence that the manager of the Parelli UK office at Stoneleigh Park is called Laura and she has only ever commented on Parelli posts on this forum? Hmmm...


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## JenJ (10 July 2010)

So there are lots of different practitioners of NH who all work with slightly different methods, but only one seems to attract all the flack for being self-serving and not concerned with the horse's welfare, and he just happens to be the one who decided to name his method after himself?

Hmmm


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## ester (10 July 2010)

roo2012 said:



			Yes - and Monty Roberts wasn't happy with that association.
		
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pretty sure I have seen youtube vids with monty using the leg tie technique to break horses in 

*searches*

It looks horrid, but lots of supposed natural horse guys do seem to use it, just followed an endo link to an aussie guys vids and he was leg tying to do the TAP


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## Ignition (10 July 2010)

PapaFrita said:



			Yes, but it is _fiction_

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Oh really? And here I thought it was a documentary.


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## SirenaXVI (10 July 2010)

boogles said:



			Another Endo fan here  I'm also rather intruiged by his "tap" technique.
		
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Have to say I have not actually seen it, I just love his attitude around horses having watched a few of his videos, he also seems to have absolutely no arrogance about him.
Now HE deserves to be a multi millionaire!


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## intouch (10 July 2010)

Link didn't work


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## ester (10 July 2010)

intouch TAP

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2i3AIBMBhY


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## KS1 (10 July 2010)

Changes said:



			Maybe I wasn't clear enough - followers of traditional sports see abuse within it and don't like it, people try and do something about it. I have yet to hear a Parelli convert find anything wrong with what Parelli do.
		
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No whtat I do agree with, I looked on FB and all the replies regarding Friday evening are positive, no on equestions the string used over the horses gum or the tying of the leg or the fact the horse went from being relaxed (after the saddle pad) to being stressed.

Now I have been using PNH for 7 years but use what works for me and my horse and don't do anything that I think may stress my horse out. I try other methods of Horsemanship and yes I use traditional methods as well especially when I rode dressage to train my horse in the carriage.

I attended a workshop a few years ago and I questioned the parelli instructor on two occasions. One reply was "That's a lot of what ifs" and the other reply was "Work it out"  on both occasions my questions were not answered which both confusesd  and upset me.

Incidently I complained about the day and got a full refund.

So while a lot of things using PNH has helped my horses I see things like those with Catwalk that I don't agree with.


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## thatsmygirl (10 July 2010)

cinammontoast said:



			How many times do the Parellis have to f**K up before people stop licking their a***s? 

I don't object to treating your horse as naturally as possible within the limits of riding it, but I really bloody object to tying a horse's leg up and claiming that you are 'gaining it's trust'. Duh!  









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ANYTHING ELSE TO ADD GUYS???
well I think that just about sums it up nicely and well put.


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## Sol (10 July 2010)

Again, another Endo fan  Watched most of his videos now, explored his website etc, it's really good stuff - not just trying to flog you expensive books/videos etc and at the end still saying 'but you'd be better off just paying us to come and 'fix' your horse for you!' like a lot of NH stuff seems to say.......

I admit, I quite like/don't mind Monty Roberts & Kelly Marks. It has become very much about the money though, for certain. I understand join up and have used it (with no help from anyone else!) and it's common sense.... oh, so is most of the rest!
Parelli..... when I first saw it, I thought 'wow, that looks great, I wish I could get my horse to co-operate like that' etc, like you do. You have to admit, some of the stuff they can get horses doing is fairly amazing. But.... after I started looking into it, it just seems like a load of bull sh*t. Very expensive bull sh*t at that. There also seem to be far too many horror stories revolving around it......

And when will people see sense and scrap the term 'natural horsemanship'? People doing anything except eating horses is far from natural....


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## WishfulThinker (10 July 2010)

elsbells said:



			This will be brief as it would go on and on and others will be able to fill in the gaps I hope?

It all started well and the savvy riders were great, then Pat was introduced and he gave what I would expect to be the same talk on the princibles. Then Robert came in and gave a rough outline on his recently owned 7 year old jumping stallion Catwalk, and the fact that it was almost impossible to bridle him. Robert was not willing however to show us just how he did, but did though mention that he couldn't do it in a nice way. 

Then the bay stallion was brought in, he was stunning and so well behaved cosidering the atmosphere and no doubt, his feeling of isolation from the other horses waiting outside.

It started well and Pat continued his talk as he led the stallion around the areana on a long rope. He talked of relationships, perceptions and of course the principles of love, language and leadership. Then he pulled it's head down as his is the Parrelli thing I guess? He then tried to touch Catwalks head and ears unsuccessfuly I might add and so became a little more forceful in his approach and asked to be brought in a saddle pad which he then slid up and down a distrssed Catwalks neck and over his face. This went on for a while and then he asked for music. The room went silent, all viewers went dumb as they watched him use a gum line as a twitch and a 22ft rope wrapped around the fetlock to the knee to haul Catwalks leg off the floor to render him unable to move while he tried to force the bride onto a now very distressed and frightened horses face!!

Catwalk hopped away and went down on his remaining knee and backed into the jump and the fence rails. Linda who'd had her face in hr hands up to this point, then raced around from her chair at the side of the areana and joined him in the fight, pulling at the rope while Pat continued to force on the bridle. The distressed horse managed to break away momentairily and run for the exit and safety. They caught him and started the whole process again where the horse stood.

I have to confess that at this point, we were unable to watch any more and had to walk out.
		
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Holy Moly............Id WHW witnessed someone doing that, I think they would say something.  RSPCA would prob try to charge the person. 

That sounds just like what Monty Roberts described as the barbaric way his father used to break in horses. All that is missing in the wooden post.


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## Ignition (10 July 2010)

KS1 said:



			Incidently I complained about the day and got a full refund.
		
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I'm interested by this. Did the show organisers therefore agree with your views of the demonstration?


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## PapaFrita (10 July 2010)

Ignition said:



			Oh really? And here I thought it was a documentary.
		
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Seriously? You thought film based on the Nicholas Evans novel entitled 'The Horse Whisperer' with a _fictional_ character called Tom Booker was a documentary?? Okaaaay.


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## KS1 (10 July 2010)

Ignition said:



			I'm interested by this. Did the show organisers therefore agree with your views of the demonstration?
		
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It was the workshop run by PNH last year that I complained about not the demo on Friday evening


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## Ignition (10 July 2010)

PapaFrita said:



			Seriously? You thought film based on the Nicholas Evans novel entitled 'The Horse Whisperer' with a _fictional_ character called Tom Booker was a documentary?? Okaaaay.
		
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Nice to see you still haven't managed to remove that stick from up your...


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## Ignition (10 July 2010)

KS1 said:



			It was the workshop run by PNH last year that I complained about not the demo on Friday evening
		
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Oh yes I see, apologies - senior moment!


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## PapaFrita (10 July 2010)

Ignition said:



			Nice to see you still haven't managed to remove that stick from up your...
		
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LMAO!! Oh come on, lighten up. You're just peed off you got caught out mistaking The Horse Whisperer (novel) with The Man Who Listens To Horses, by Monty Roberts.
BTW, when have you and I ever had a conversation before, and when in the last six months or so, possibly longer have you read anything beyond the utterly banal that I might have posted on HHO? In fact, I would like to know precisely where the 'stick up *blank space*' comment comes from.


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## Troylimbo1 (10 July 2010)

KS1 said:



			I haven't read all the posts as there are so any and they say roughly the same thing so do excuse me if I repeat anything already said.

I do know that the H&H site is anti Parelli to start with so I was very interested to see what views where given on the demo yesterday evening.

I have been using PNH for 7 years now and have always gained postive and remarkable results. 
My YO and others have even commentated at how well behaved and happy my horses are. However I don't stick to PNH solely, I use whatever works for my horses giving them the happy life they deserve.
I went along to the evening PNH demo yesterday evening and it starteed in the usual way that I have seen countless times but I know they need to do all the usual intro's for people new to Parelli.

Anyway.. in came Catwalk,,  I beautiful 7 yr old Stallion, he was calm and inquisitive and considering he had just been with Robert 8 weeks then put into this demo I thought he coped brilliantly.

Pat talked as he walked around the arena but he isn't just ambling around, if Catwalk went too far ahead Pat changed direction so that he was always the leader and Catwalk followed. It also give Catwalk the opportunity to absorb the surroundings and noises.

Pat spent time getting Catwalk used to being handled around his ears, eyes, head and muzzle. 
He tied Catwalks leg up to that he was unable to place it down, it doesn't stop Catwalk moving around as someone here stated but it does make it more difficult and yes when Catwalk frst tried to move he went down on the tied leg but it did not distress him. Pat showed how he could quickly release the line if needed to for safety.

However I did not think there was anything natural about doing this and was disappointed to see it being carried out.

The saddle pad, this was brought in and used to desensitize Catwalk to having something placed over his head. This is not cruel, in fact it was nice to see a change in Catwalk, he softened and relaxed and was quite happy for the pad to go over his head.

This to me is the point where Pat should have Stopped..

Instead he carried on, putting his string into Catwalks mouth over his top gum was to me cruel, there was no need for this and again not natural in the slightest, I was appalled to see Monty Roberts use a similar technique which he calls a "Bucking Stap" and even more appalled to see Pat do this. A second line at one stage was put on Catwalk leg and I thought Pat would have explained why he did but whether I missed it I don't know but I never heard any explanation.

I can't remember at what point the string went into Catwalks mouth but the demo started at 7pm with talking for approx 30min, then Catwalk came in around 7.30pm approx. I left at 9.40pm and it was still going on. My mate said as I left Linda was going into the arena but I can't comment as I never saw what happened.

By the time my mate and I left we could only witrness Catwalk getting more distressed and fighting Pat more. On my journey home I said to me mate "I understand and follow PNH and I was shocked to see what went on, what on earth are those who watched PNH for the first time going to think and I am looking forward to hearing comments on H&H which I know there will be"

So for those that were disgusted with yesterdays performance I totally agree with you. 

I am not there today (Sat) but I am back Sunday so it will be interesting to see if there is any improvement.

Now to see what was said on the Savvy Forum
		
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Can I just highlight the section where you say you were 'appalled' that you saw Monty Roberts using a bucking strap in the same way as Pat Parelli.
He certainly DOES NOT put rope into the horses mouths - he actually ties it from the saddle to the head piece of the bridle so that the horse cannot lower his head to allow him to buck.
Mr Roberts is not even in the same league as this plonker (putting it mildly)


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## amandaco2 (10 July 2010)

erm isnt that how they used to break horses?
tie them down until they no more fight left in them..........................?


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## Ignition (10 July 2010)

PapaFrita said:



			LMAO!! Oh come on, lighten up. You're just peed off you got caught out mistaking The Horse Whisperer (novel) with The Man Who Listens To Horses, by Monty Roberts.
BTW, when have you and I ever had a conversation before, and when in the last six months or so, possibly longer have you read anything beyond the utterly banal that I might have posted on HHO? In fact, I would like to know precisely where the 'stick up arse' comment comes from.
		
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It's called sarcasm.. of course I didn't think The Horse Whisperer was a documentary?!


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## PapaFrita (10 July 2010)

Ignition said:



			It's called sarcasm.. of course I didn't think The Horse Whisperer was a documentary?!
		
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As I still have the stick firmly lodged, I shall point out that in fact it is _irony_ and frankly it's rather hard at times to tell the ironic from the moronic on HHO. I was playing it safe


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## Kiribati_uk (10 July 2010)

Right i don't care if i offend anyone, but after reading the parelli facebook page, I am TOTALLY DISGUSTED at the fact that parelliens( Thats what they call themselves) think if you dont believe/practice parelli your an old tradtionlist and to quote a follower 
*'' I feel bad for those people that just don't understand the true meaning of a horses dignity and I pray that one day soon it will click with them too. For all the missunderstood horses sakes.''*
So does this mean we dont love,care and look after our horses??
This parelli is basically a cult which bullys people into thinking that anyway but there way is right!! Thats **** with horses you never stop learning and the same things dont work on all horses!!!!!!!!!!


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## Ignition (10 July 2010)

PapaFrita said:



			As I still have the stick firmly lodged, I shall point out that in fact it is _irony_ and frankly it's rather hard at times to tell the ironic from the moronic on HHO. I was playing it safe 

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... and you question my 'stick' comment


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## PapaFrita (10 July 2010)

Ignition said:



			... and you question my 'stick' comment 

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Nah... not any more. Can't possibly take it personally, taken within the context of your previous contributions...


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## JenJ (10 July 2010)

PapaFrita said:



			frankly it's rather hard at times to tell the ironic from the moronic on HHO
		
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Love it!


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## Luci07 (10 July 2010)

Horse Whisperer - as per my (much much!) earlier post. Bad book/film. Non horsey friends always focus on the sunlit finish, and not the lead up!

Loved this post, with or without anything stuck anywhere!


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## PapaFrita (10 July 2010)

JenJ said:



			Love it!
		
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Why, thank you  I was rather pleased with it myself, but it might just be the effect of that stick...


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## ester (10 July 2010)

the settings appear to have been changed on the fb... I could see all of it earlier but cant now.


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## CorvusCorax (10 July 2010)

PF I hope that's not a C****t Stick up your jacksie....


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## PapaFrita (10 July 2010)

CaveCanem said:



			PF I hope that's not a C****t Stick up your jacksie....
		
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LMAO!!!!!!!!!! Well, if that were the implication, then I would feel _seriously_ insulted!!!


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## Ignition (10 July 2010)

CaveCanem said:



			PF I hope that's not a C****t Stick up your jacksie....
		
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I'll admit, even I laughed at this


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## Sparkles (10 July 2010)

KS1 said:



			No whtat I do agree with, I looked on FB and all the replies regarding Friday evening are positive, no on equestions the string used over the horses gum or the tying of the leg or the fact the horse went from being relaxed (after the saddle pad) to being stressed.

Now I have been using PNH for 7 years but use what works for me and my horse and don't do anything that I think may stress my horse out. I try other methods of Horsemanship and yes I use traditional methods as well especially when I rode dressage to train my horse in the carriage.

I attended a workshop a few years ago and I questioned the parelli instructor on two occasions. One reply was "That's a lot of what ifs" and the other reply was "Work it out"  on both occasions my questions were not answered which both confusesd  and upset me.

Incidently I complained about the day and got a full refund.

So while a lot of things using PNH has helped my horses I see things like those with Catwalk that I don't agree with.
		
Click to expand...

I like you  [In a non-gay way!]

That's my exact point to my first original post on this thread. You're similar to what I beleive, some parts I'll use because it'scommon sense and it works...but not brain washed into the whole hog of things and DO actually see right and wrong with technques and don't just follow it like a religious trend!

No answers have still been put to my questions I asked repeated times as I was genuinely trying to understand the reasoning behind his methods mentioned here. All my questions were posted twice, and surely, rather than being slated on how 'narrow minded' we are on their FB page, one of them could have spread the Parelli love and enlightened me on what exactly Pat was doing instead? It's all fine saying 'they just don't understand' and 'bad reading' etc...but why not explain what was going on then if it's nothing that bad or out of rationality for the horse? Does that mean they do not _know_ why he actually did this if not one person, out of *all* of them commenting on that status, can reply to any of the genuine questions on here? 

You learn more through questioning....not following blindlessly. How many people when growing up at yards were told to do things, did them,and then wondered the meaning of them and actually questioned it? [Leading a horse from the left, not walking behind it unaware, not running up to them, red ribbons, not putting the safety clip on your stirrups, etc etc etc]

Answers on a post card please!


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## PapaFrita (10 July 2010)

Binky01 said:



			I like you  [In a non-gay way!]

That's my exact point to my first original post on this thread. You're similar to what I beleive, some parts I'll use because it'scommon sense and it works...but not brain washed into the whole hog of things and DO actually see right and wrong with technques and don't just follow it like a religious trend!

No answers have still been put to my questions I asked repeated times as I was genuinely trying to understand the reasoning behind his methods mentioned here. All my questions were posted twice, and surely, rather than being slated on how 'narrow minded' we are on their FB page, one of them could have spread the Parelli love and enlightened me on what exactly Pat was doing instead? It's all fine saying 'they just don't understand' and 'bad reading' etc...but why not explain what was going on then if it's nothing that bad or out of rationality for the horse? Does that mean they do not _know_ why he actually did this if not one person, out of *all* of them commenting on that status, can reply to any of the genuine questions on here? It just seems a hideous cover-up and being brainwashed blind into thinking everything that is done from the 'head person' is seen as Gods words himself so therefore unquestionable.

Answers on a post card please! 

Click to expand...

Excellent post. WHY won't they explain? It IS rather like a cult; no questioning, blind acceptance.... It's as if they have something to hide and only 'members' are allowed enlightenment... what's THAT all about????


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## Sparkles (10 July 2010)

Hmmm maybe it's like that club...with the levels?

*name blank on what it is..*


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## tongue~n~cheek (10 July 2010)

For those of you munching on popcorn, you best call redenbocker, as this one may tip you on your A$$ causing you to spill your beloved munchies!

yikes, I am nearly blind from reading every word of the last 18pages.  I joined this forum an hour ago, soley for the purpose of posting to this thread, take it how you will.  I have been a parelli student for close to 10yrs.  many have expressed a desire to hear from a parelli student/follower, so here I am, I am going to say my peace and I may or may not be back, take that how you will.

I have been riding for my entire life, quite a few decades, and have riden hunters/jumpers/dressage/western prior to becoming natural.  I know that parelli followers and parelli corporate are reading this and I hope they hear me for what I am about to say.  I, like many others, are not up for saying this on the parelli forum.  For reasons i only know of my own.  So here it is annonomous, as I need no parelli police to try to shut me up.

I am close to becoming a parelli instructor and now am bowing out.  I simply cannot stand behind something/someone that uses such poor judgement, even though it is only occasional, when it happens, it is a category 10 hurricane.  I don't think I could stand having to defend this again and again as an instructor.  Nor do I want a whole butt load of money to go down the drain because they themselves have destroyed the good parelli name that I chose to franchise.

 The last year has been hell as far as the world view of parelli, and I am  concerned for the parelli organization.  MANY parelli students are put off by this incident, and a few others lately I might add.  Some, but rest assured,far from ALL parelli students are mindless sheep in a cult.  TRUST me.  there are some, and I can't stand them.  I loath the hypocrite.  And this incident was hypocrity at it best.  I have NEVER seen this technique in all my years studying NH, from any instructor no matter how big they were.  I don't understand it my self.  However, I wasn't there and can say that my judgement of whether or not the horse was in distress will be reserved for after I can see it for myself.  having said that, what I don't like is the fact that sooooooo many people, both pro/anti parelli are disgusted by it.  It should have ended with the saddle pad.  This is not the venue for this kind of extreme situation.

Having said that, 

Everyone makes mistakes, and if anyone here has NEVER gone on longer than you should have with a horse

call GOD and tell him to get out of your seat!  

99% of what I have learned from Parelli has been kind, fair, safe, and helped EVERY horse I have ever used it on.  I have seen far worse abuse outside of NH than I have ever seen inside of it.  Though ANY technique is only as good as the person using it.  I have seen thousands of people transformed from being inept with horses to being great with them, simply from the parelli home study system.  I have seen more amazing things done with horses in NH than I ever saw in the traditional world.  

As for an explanation for WHY he did it, I have none, I don't understand it either.  I understand some of it, but I get lost past the saddle pad.  Everything from there on, based on written account of the ordeal here and on the parelli forum, which are identical BTW, is fear, intimidation, force, and mechanics. ALL of which are NOT taught by the parellis.  I have NEVER seen a student try anything like this, and something like this cropped up several years ago, but no one that I know of was stupid enough to try it at home.

So please stop saying we are a cult.  we are not.  some act like it, but I avoid them too.  I know how you feel being put down by the handful of NH students that look down on you because you "don't put the relationship first", and i disagree with this practice, as do most of the parelli students I have read from on the forum and know in person.  The program is a good one, and while THAT video of Linda and the one eyed horse is not great in my honest opinion, it is far from abuse, and that is not the sum of the whole, of the program.  

I can say, that one should be wary of judging what you don't understand.  But I also believe that if people don't understand you, you didn't present a good enough example of what you are trying to show.  I watch everything, EVERYTHING, with an eagle eye, and NEVER follow blindly what someone says just because of who they are.  this goes for Pat and Linda, as well as olympic gold medalists.  I flat out disagree with anything rolkur like, if it is behind the vertical, I find that the person using it, usually has little of anything to offer me.  However, I do listen, and give each person a chance to truley understand where they are coming from.  I watch to see if the "proof" is shown by what they preach, and trust me, I will be watching to see if there is 'proof' from this ordeal too.

I am HEAVY into PNH,  and the things I have seen lately scare me.  it is giving PNH a very bad name, and one that I think if they continue on like this, will be hard pressed to recover from.  Someone said something to the effect that, they wonder why, all of a sudden, Pat and Linda seem to be destroying the very name they have worked so hard to build.  This is only speculation on my part and mine alone, I fear they have sold thier souls to the corporate devil.  Maybe they infact are trashing themselves to get out of something that contractually they don't otherwise know how.  I don't know.  It all is so bewildering to me, how mainly Pat, is running off the at the mouth lately and causing a great many stir, even inside our own world.  He is a great horseman, and I love linda greatly.  But I just can't stand behind this if it is going to continue.  I dont see how they can think they will get new students by these "incidents".  And one would think that by it hurting thier bottom line, they would think better of it.  but apparently not.

I do want to also say, that he owes NO ONE an explanation.  Not you, not me, not even the savvy club.  We are no more entitled to the justification to what he did, than he is to why we do what we do.  However, it would be a stupid thing to NOT do so.  Corporate suicide in my book.  And if all the so called blind followers think that standing up for them on FB will protect them or help them.  they are so wrong.  it just feeds fuel to the fire.  this thread proves it.  Because it means they speak out of an unquestioning loyalty and not regarding the facts, and by putting other people down who do question something that clearly looks like abouse, even if it is just a "misunderstanding" which makes thier opinion useless in most peoples eyes.

I think the incident happened out of arrogance, ego, embarrasment, frustration, and maybe even a tad of loonacy.

PAT and LINDA

you need to wake up before your empire crumbles, if it indeed hasn't already.  your foundation is getting stress cracks, and those can bring down the tallest of buildings during the slightest of breeze.


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## PapaFrita (10 July 2010)

Binky01 said:



			Hmmm maybe it's like that elite secret club...with the levels?

*name blank on what it is..*
		
Click to expand...

OMG it's SCIENTOLOGY!! Loads of money will buy you spirituality, enlightenment and a spot in heaven.
Although I think you might mean the .... Oh *******s.. I've gone blank as well... the Masons??


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## Sparkles (10 July 2010)

^

Thankyou.

Beautifully put and an obvious huge effort to take the time to post that, so thankyou.

*applauds*




			I loath the hypocrite. And this incident was hypocrity at it best. I have NEVER seen this technique in all my years studying NH, from any instructor no matter how big they were. I don't understand it my self. However, I wasn't there and can say that my judgement of whether or not the horse was in distress will be reserved for after I can see it for myself. having said that, what I don't like is the fact that sooooooo many people, both pro/anti parelli are disgusted by it. It should have ended with the saddle pad. This is not the venue for this kind of extreme situation.
		
Click to expand...

That was my point exactly. I understood it up till that point too, hence,why I was questioning if anyone could asnwer the reasoning to the latter part of the 'show' which happened after that.


Papa - I honestly cannot remember. The masons came to mind....then I remembered that science one off Mock the Week. And got confused. LOL.


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## DJ (10 July 2010)

I`m with Binky ....... 



Uttmost respect and round of applause from me 

PS ..... Love your signature ... copious amounts of lol !!


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## 3Beasties (10 July 2010)

Binky01 said:



			^

Thankyou.

Beautifully put and an obvious huge effort to take the time to post that, so thankyou.

*applauds*
		
Click to expand...


Applauds with Binky


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## Weezy (10 July 2010)

I think she actually meant the Masons 

tongue-n-cheek - welcome to HHO, and thank you for such a great first post   Food for thought for all I would say!


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## cloudandmatrix (10 July 2010)

tongue~n~cheek said:



			For those of you munching on popcorn, you best call redenbocker, as this one may tip you on your A$$ causing you to spill your beloved munchies!

yikes, I am nearly blind from reading every word of the last 18pages.  I joined this forum an hour ago, soley for the purpose of posting to this thread, take it how you will.  I have been a parelli student for close to 10yrs.  many have expressed a desire to hear from a parelli student/follower, so here I am, I am going to say my peace and I may or may not be back, take that how you will.

I have been riding for my entire life, quite a few decades, and have riden hunters/jumpers/dressage/western prior to becoming natural.  I know that parelli followers and parelli corporate are reading this and I hope they hear me for what I am about to say.  I, like many others, are not up for saying this on the parelli forum.  For reasons i only know of my own.  So here it is annonomous, as I need no parelli police to try to shut me up.

I am close to becoming a parelli instructor and now am bowing out.  I simply cannot stand behind something/someone that uses such poor judgement, even though it is only occasional, when it happens, it is a category 10 hurricane.  I don't think I could stand having to defend this again and again as an instructor.  Nor do I want a whole butt load of money to go down the drain because they themselves have destroyed the good parelli name that I chose to franchise.

 The last year has been hell as far as the world view of parelli, and I am  concerned for the parelli organization.  MANY parelli students are put off by this incident, and a few others lately I might add.  Some, but rest assured,far from ALL parelli students are mindless sheep in a cult.  TRUST me.  there are some, and I can't stand them.  I loath the hypocrite.  And this incident was hypocrity at it best.  I have NEVER seen this technique in all my years studying NH, from any instructor no matter how big they were.  I don't understand it my self.  However, I wasn't there and can say that my judgement of whether or not the horse was in distress will be reserved for after I can see it for myself.  having said that, what I don't like is the fact that sooooooo many people, both pro/anti parelli are disgusted by it.  It should have ended with the saddle pad.  This is not the venue for this kind of extreme situation.

Having said that, 

Everyone makes mistakes, and if anyone here has NEVER gone on longer than you should have with a horse

call GOD and tell him to get out of your seat!  

99% of what I have learned from Parelli has been kind, fair, safe, and helped EVERY horse I have ever used it on.  I have seen far worse abuse outside of NH than I have ever seen inside of it.  Though ANY technique is only as good as the person using it.  I have seen thousands of people transformed from being inept with horses to being great with them, simply from the parelli home study system.  I have seen more amazing things done with horses in NH than I ever saw in the traditional world.  

As for an explanation for WHY he did it, I have none, I don't understand it either.  I understand some of it, but I get lost past the saddle pad.  Everything from there on, based on written account of the ordeal here and on the parelli forum, which are identical BTW, is fear, intimidation, force, and mechanics. ALL of which are NOT taught by the parellis.  I have NEVER seen a student try anything like this, and something like this cropped up several years ago, but no one that I know of was stupid enough to try it at home.

So please stop saying we are a cult.  we are not.  some act like it, but I avoid them too.  I know how you feel being put down by the handful of NH students that look down on you because you "don't put the relationship first", and i disagree with this practice, as do most of the parelli students I have read from on the forum and know in person.  The program is a good one, and while THAT video of Linda and the one eyed horse is not great in my honest opinion, it is far from abuse, and that is not the sum of the whole, of the program.  

I can say, that one should be wary of judging what you don't understand.  But I also believe that if people don't understand you, you didn't present a good enough example of what you are trying to show.  I watch everything, EVERYTHING, with an eagle eye, and NEVER follow blindly what someone says just because of who they are.  this goes for Pat and Linda, as well as olympic gold medalists.  I flat out disagree with anything rolkur like, if it is behind the vertical, I find that the person using it, usually has little of anything to offer me.  However, I do listen, and give each person a chance to truley understand where they are coming from.  I watch to see if the "proof" is shown by what they preach, and trust me, I will be watching to see if there is 'proof' from this ordeal too.

I am HEAVY into PNH,  and the things I have seen lately scare me.  it is giving PNH a very bad name, and one that I think if they continue on like this, will be hard pressed to recover from.  Someone said something to the effect that, they wonder why, all of a sudden, Pat and Linda seem to be destroying the very name they have worked so hard to build.  This is only speculation on my part and mine alone, I fear they have sold thier souls to the corporate devil.  Maybe they infact are trashing themselves to get out of something that contractually they don't otherwise know how.  I don't know.  It all is so bewildering to me, how mainly Pat, is running off the at the mouth lately and causing a great many stir, even inside our own world.  He is a great horseman, and I love linda greatly.  But I just can't stand behind this if it is going to continue.  I dont see how they can think they will get new students by these "incidents".  And one would think that by it hurting thier bottom line, they would think better of it.  but apparently not.

I do want to also say, that he owes NO ONE an explanation.  Not you, not me, not even the savvy club.  We are no more entitled to the justification to what he did, than he is to why we do what we do.  However, it would be a stupid thing to NOT do so.  Corporate suicide in my book.  And if all the so called blind followers think that standing up for them on FB will protect them or help them.  they are so wrong.  it just feeds fuel to the fire.  this thread proves it.  Because it means they speak out of an unquestioning loyalty and not regarding the facts, and by putting other people down who do question something that clearly looks like abouse, even if it is just a "misunderstanding" which makes thier opinion useless in most peoples eyes.

I think the incident happened out of arrogance, ego, embarrasment, frustration, and maybe even a tad of loonacy.

PAT and LINDA

you need to wake up before your empire crumbles, if it indeed hasn't already.  your foundation is getting stress cracks, and those can bring down the tallest of buildings during the slightest of breeze. 

Click to expand...

thank you. that really is a thoughtful, openminded and interesting post,and has convinced me all parelli followers arnt the same sheeplike morons.
 they would do well to listen to people like you a bit more...


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## lastchancer (10 July 2010)

Thank you for that reply Tongueincheek -  it's about the most sensible pro Parelli post I'v seen on here. Personally I've never liked the Parellis or their methods but am aware that they are very effective when used knowledgeably. 
Regarding this latest embarrassment, I can only assume Pats ego has finally gotten the better of him and he has started to believe his own propaganda.


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## PapaFrita (10 July 2010)

Tongu~n~cheek, thank you for that post. It was very interesting and made a lot of sense. I KNOW not all parelli advocates are mindless drones and that some perfectly 'normal' people use Parelli techniques when handling and training their horses. HOWEVER, I do not believe that Parelli can lay claim to have created all the techniques that they use and that very many of them are nothing more than common sense. 
I do believe, also, that you are wrong in saying that PP owes no one an explanation. He has marketed his name and his 'methods', sold them to the general public and is making a ton of money from them.  Therefore he DOES have an obligation to justify his actions to his 'shareholders'.


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## moses06 (10 July 2010)

DISGUTING - THIS is why I don't agree with parelli, it's nasty and forceful. I have a mare that came to be with a terribly bruised mouth, awful teeth, and a morbid fear of a bridle, with time and patience we sorted her out - it took alot more than 20 mins of sheer force!!
It is ironic that the horses on the yard that "do" parelli are the ones that won't hack out, nap, buck etc etc.....


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## vallin (10 July 2010)

^^^^ me too...yes I have just read the entirety of this post to finally get a sensible answer (plus those from Kat27 - I think that's the user name...) and now I think I need a nap!


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## vickybrennan (10 July 2010)

Troylimbo1 said:



			Can I just highlight the section where you say you were 'appalled' that you saw Monty Roberts using a bucking strap in the same way as Pat Parelli.
He certainly DOES NOT put rope into the horses mouths - he actually ties it from the saddle to the head piece of the bridle so that the horse cannot lower his head to allow him to buck.
Mr Roberts is not even in the same league as this plonker (putting it mildly)
		
Click to expand...

See link to Monty Roberts using the gum line (on 1500 horses apparently?)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5O4JHJhiUE


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## Seahorse (10 July 2010)

lastchancer said:



			Thank you for that reply Tongueincheek -  it's about the most sensible pro Parelli post I'v seen on here. Personally I've never liked the Parellis or their methods but am aware that they are very effective when used knowledgeably. 
Regarding this latest embarrassment, I can only assume Pats ego has finally gotten the better of him and he has started to believe his own propaganda.
		
Click to expand...

well put and I heartily agree.


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## TinyTrigger (10 July 2010)

lastchancer said:



			Thank you for that reply Tongueincheek -  it's about the most sensible pro Parelli post I'v seen on here. Personally I've never liked the Parellis or their methods but am aware that they are very effective when used knowledgeably. 
Regarding this latest embarrassment, I can only assume Pats ego has finally gotten the better of him and he has started to believe his own propaganda.
		
Click to expand...

I agree with everything that lastchancer has said here and hold the same view about the Parellis. In particular ..



lastchancer said:



			Pats ego has finally gotten the better of him and he has started to believe his own propaganda .
		
Click to expand...


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## Doncella (10 July 2010)

PapaFrita said:



			Tongu~n~cheek, thank you for that post. It was very interesting and made a lot of sense. I KNOW not all parelli advocates are mindless drones and that some perfectly 'normal' people use Parelli techniques when handling and training their horses. HOWEVER, I do not believe that Parelli can lay claim to have created all the techniques that they use and that very many of them are nothing more than common sense. 
I do believe, also, that you are wrong in saying that PP owes no one an explanation. He has marketed his name and his 'methods', sold them to the general public and is making a ton of money from them.  Therefore he DOES have an obligation to justify his actions to his 'shareholders'.
		
Click to expand...

I'm with you on this, especially the common sense part.  I also know outwardly normal people who quote Parelli methods like the Bible and shell out money hand over fist for all the doodads when a bit of rope and a halter will suffice.
God! How did we manage in the good/bad old days?


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## Munchkin (10 July 2010)

Thank you tongue n cheek


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## muddy boots (10 July 2010)

Thanks TnC, interesting post.


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## muffinino (10 July 2010)

PapaFrita said:



			Excellent post. WHY won't they explain? It IS rather like a cult; no questioning, blind acceptance.... It's as if they have something to hide and only 'members' are allowed enlightenment... what's THAT all about????
		
Click to expand...

A group who are all the above, keen on having a lot of money pumped into their crazy ideas by their 'followers', pretend that they're a legitimate organisation under the guise of religion, have a cult-like quality, adore celebrity endorsment and have a ruthlessness in dealing with anybody who dares question them...

Hmmm, I'm beginning to see a pattern...are we sure they aren't linked to the Scientologists?


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## muffinino (10 July 2010)

PapaFrita said:



			OMG it's SCIENTOLOGY!! Loads of money will buy you spirituality, enlightenment and a spot in heaven.
Although I think you might mean the .... Oh *******s.. I've gone blank as well... the Masons??
		
Click to expand...

OMG! I hadn't read this post before I made mine. Great minds etc


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## PapaFrita (10 July 2010)

muffinino said:



			Hmmm, I'm beginning to see a pattern...are we sure they aren't linked to the Scientologists?
		
Click to expand...

I just had the strangest image of Tom Cruise doing Parelli...


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## MrsMozart (10 July 2010)

Thank you for that view from 'your' side as it were.

At first I liked Parelli; for an old stick like me who knew little and had forgotten more, there was someting to learn. I was going to do business with them... Now I hope their empire crumbles.


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## PapaFrita (10 July 2010)

muffinino said:



			OMG! I hadn't read this post before I made mine. Great minds etc 

Click to expand...

Genius


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## intouch (10 July 2010)

vickybrennan said:



			See link to Monty Roberts using the gum line (on 1500 horses apparently?)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5O4JHJhiUE

Click to expand...

So long as you watch this the whole way through!!  5 mins in the buck stopper compared to seriously hurting someone or ending up in the factory.  No contest, in my view.  
I can't see it as being worse than many of the other contraptions that are used daily in horses' mouths.  (I know - no one on here has dreadful hands or uses evil bits...)


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## muffinino (10 July 2010)

PapaFrita said:



			I just had the strangest image of Tom Cruise doing Parelli... 

Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure that is one of the harbingers of the apocalypse


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## m3gan (10 July 2010)

Troylimbo1 said:



			Can I just highlight the section where you say you were 'appalled' that you saw Monty Roberts using a bucking strap in the same way as Pat Parelli.
He certainly DOES NOT put rope into the horses mouths - he actually ties it from the saddle to the head piece of the bridle so that the horse cannot lower his head to allow him to buck.
Mr Roberts is not even in the same league as this plonker (putting it mildly)
		
Click to expand...

Agree with the above, I have been to a demonstration by Monty Roberts and he certainly did not put anything in the horses mouth , it was  tied to the saddle!


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## PapaFrita (10 July 2010)

intouch said:



			So long as you watch this the whole way through!!  5 mins in the buck stopper compared to seriously hurting someone or ending up in the factory.  No contest, in my view.  
I can't see it as being worse than many of the other contraptions that are used daily in horses' mouths.  (I know - no one on here has dreadful hands or uses evil bits...)
		
Click to expand...

Context is absolutely vital. Without knowing the full story (or at least most of it) of a horse, one can't make an informed opinion. Sadly, the Parelli people will not explain or otherwise provide said context.... therefore I refuse to accept.


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## Tinypony (10 July 2010)

"... doesn't "Tom Booker" tie Pilgrim's leg up in the Horse Whisperer? 

Yes - and Monty Roberts wasn't happy with that association."

I hope I'm not repeating anyone, this is such a long thread!  Monty Roberts had no association with the film The Horse Whisperer, whatever he says in his books.  This has been stated clearly by the author and the man he visited when he was writing the book - Buck Brannaman.   Buck Brannaman was also the consultant on the film for the horse work, and gives a clear explanation of the laying the horse down scene in his own book.  He ends by saying it's not a film about horse training, it's a love story (which is why the whole laying down thing wasn't explained more clearly in the film).

I must admit, having spoken to Pat P on several occasions, and once about using heavy restraint, I'm quite shocked to read about this.  He's going straight down the same line that Monty Roberts has isn't he?  He'll be herding horses into trailers with panels next.

p.s.  Monty Roberts absolutely DOES put a gumline under the horse's top lip.  He's even responded to criticism of this on the Intelligent Horsemanship discussion group, so this is proven.


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## PapaFrita (10 July 2010)

muffinino said:



			I'm pretty sure that is one of the harbingers of the apocalypse 

Click to expand...

Eeek! I think the newspapers should be notified... in particular the Daily Mail!!


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## Sparkles (10 July 2010)

PapaFrita said:



			I just had the strangest image of Tom Cruise doing Parelli... 

Click to expand...

Now that's not a bad thing..... Would that be naked like my joking suggestion before?

Julian McMahon guest appearance would make it even better...I'd convert


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## CracklinRosie (10 July 2010)

vickybrennan said:



			See link to Monty Roberts using the gum line (on 1500 horses apparently?)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5O4JHJhiUE

Click to expand...

That is barbaric, how can this claim to be "natural"?


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## Ladylina83 (10 July 2010)

Ooohh I might have a little Gin ! 

This is vile - as much as I want to see this footage ... I Kinda don't joind the FB group in quiet anticipation!


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## SirenaXVI (10 July 2010)

Binky01 said:



			I like you  [In a non-gay way!]

That's my exact point to my first original post on this thread. You're similar to what I beleive, some parts I'll use because it'scommon sense and it works...but not brain washed into the whole hog of things and DO actually see right and wrong with technques and don't just follow it like a religious trend!

No answers have still been put to my questions I asked repeated times as I was genuinely trying to understand the reasoning behind his methods mentioned here. All my questions were posted twice, and surely, rather than being slated on how 'narrow minded' we are on their FB page, one of them could have spread the Parelli love and enlightened me on what exactly Pat was doing instead? It's all fine saying 'they just don't understand' and 'bad reading' etc...but why not explain what was going on then if it's nothing that bad or out of rationality for the horse? Does that mean they do not _know_ why he actually did this if not one person, out of *all* of them commenting on that status, can reply to any of the genuine questions on here? 

You learn more through questioning....not following blindlessly. How many people when growing up at yards were told to do things, did them,and then wondered the meaning of them and actually questioned it? [Leading a horse from the left, not walking behind it unaware, not running up to them, red ribbons, not putting the safety clip on your stirrups, etc etc etc]

Answers on a post card please! 

Click to expand...

They won't let you in on the secret until you have handed over your hard earned cash silly!

Don't want to worry anyone, but I have just learnt that Parelli  have just had an NVQ qualification approved by LANTRA


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## gillianfleming (10 July 2010)

I've just read all the converts comments on FB what a load of tosh.

Shame there doesn't seem to be any vids, can't wait to hear what happens tomorrow.


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## JessandCharlie (10 July 2010)

Tongue-n-cheek, thank you for taking the time to post. I think it IS a shame, but NH seems to have turned a full circle from when it first started, and pat and linda's morals and aims have been swayed by money and branding. 
May I take this oportunity to draw a comparison, like the techniques or not, Intelligent Horsemanship is a non-profit organisiation, and personally I feel NH could learn from this as it seems their basic philosophy has remained the same through it's developement, with no money to sway their goals etc as an organisation. I'm in no way saying I am pro or anti either, although previous posts may make my views clear. 
I think the very early values NH portrayed were good, and think it may be of benefit for pat and linda to review these and realise once more why they set out to build this empire, I hope it was for the love of horses and the will for people to succeed and have fun.
Had pat admitted at the time that the horse needed more time, and not force or whatever else he needed, rather than feeling pressured to deal with it quickly using force for the sake of one demo, the horse world would have had far greater respect for him in my opinion. 
After all, no body ever knows everything, and we can all be stumped by some things and take a while to figure them out without resorting to force.
I hope these people can remember what compelled them to start this venture all those years ago, and if they were honourable, go back to them, it isn't too late to make good of NH, but defending this incident may result in an even greater loss of respect for them.
It would take a big man to admit he was wrong to those who look up to him, I will reserve judgement until I see the video, or if I do, but Pat, you know whether your actions were right or not.

Hope this makes sense, writing this out on a phone isn't ideal


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## 3Beasties (10 July 2010)

intouch said:



			So long as you watch this the whole way through!!  5 mins in the buck stopper compared to seriously hurting someone or ending up in the factory.  No contest, in my view.  
I can't see it as being worse than many of the other contraptions that are used daily in horses' mouths.  (I know - no one on here has dreadful hands or uses evil bits...)
		
Click to expand...

I'm with you on this one, I don't see it as barbaric at all, like you said people put far worse things in horses mouths everyday.


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## Weezy (10 July 2010)

An NVQ in Parelli, jeez, well I suppose it was only a matter of time, you can, after all, take a degree in football


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## PapaFrita (10 July 2010)

Binky01 said:



			Now that's not a bad thing..... Would that be naked like my joking suggestion before?

Julian McMahon guest appearance would make it even better...I'd convert 

Click to expand...

No no no no no! Julian McMahon clearly plucks his eyebrows!! Shocking!!


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## teapot (10 July 2010)

The tying of the foreleg and forcing a horse down is the old school way of backing or should I say breaking (literally) a horse in.


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## TallyHo123 (10 July 2010)

will continue to fail to understand why people think it is a great idea to subject their horses to these spectacles - taking a horse out of his safe environment, subjecting them to a new handler, lights, music, crowds, and then persisting in trying to teach it something new just goes beyond my comprehension.

If you have a problem then get someone out, whether that be a nagsman or a NH fanatic or anything in between, and work on the horse in the environment where you, the owner/rider, will have to carry out whatever it is you are trying to improve.

The whole *doing it for the audience* thing will never sit well with me. 

Just as Weezy said, i totally agree with this.


If what people are saying did happen I think its disgusting.
Parelli has never sat well with me


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## Tinypony (10 July 2010)

"May I take this oportunity to draw a comparison, like the techniques or not, Intelligent Horsemanship is a non-profit organisiation, and personally I feel NH could learn from this as it seems their basic philosophy has remained the same through it's developement, with no money to sway their goals etc as an organisation."


"Had pat admitted at the time that the horse needed more time, and not force or whatever else he needed, rather than feeling pressured to deal with it quickly using force for the sake of one demo, the horse world would have had far greater respect for him in my opinion."  - Unfortunately, that is exactly what I thought after seeing a demo by Kelly Marks.


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## PapaFrita (10 July 2010)

CracklinRosie said:



			That is barbaric, how can this claim to be "natural"?
		
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Oh purleese. Riding is not natural, so the buckstopper can't possibly be natural. I don't agree it's barbaric; if I were on a bucker I'd yank it's head up in the interests of self-preservation; probably far more damaging than the buckstopper. I liked the video. 
But then I do have a stick up my *something*


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## tongue~n~cheek (10 July 2010)

Thank you for the warm welcome.  i honestly wish I could take credit for this, but I have been chased by parelli police before, not fun.  And they are not whom you would think they would be so just let that one leave your head for speculation as I cannot comment on that either.  You would be surpirsed.....flat out BL00DY (is bl00dy cusing on here?)shocked if you knew how many members do NOT/will NOT support or stand up for this kind of thing.  and I think parelli corporation will be too when push comes to shove.

Let me say that I may as well be a share holder, they have ALOT of my money, and to be honest, that is a drop in the bucket compared to some. 
and he owes me no explanation.  you can believe I want one, but I am not entitled to it.  it would be in his companies best intrest to give one.  but entitlement, think again. 

If I saw you do something I dont' agree with, do you feel I am entitled to an explanation?  NO.  this is where people go so wrong.  entitlement.  he feels entitled to do as he so pleases, your entitled to your opinion of it, and says your opinion of him is none of his business.  how do you think that entitlement is working out for HIM?  nothing more than sheer arrogance.  try looking that up in the dictionary!

this last year, things have gone south and fast.  i would say for some it is like a religion, others more like a pyrimid scheme (newest endeavors), but genuinely for most is is simply horsemanship.  nothing more.  I understand where you are coming from though, as from the outside, it certainly DOES appear that way, and sadly new things are causing it to appear that way from the inside too.  Someone asked how many members, I don't know exactly, not even a ball park really, though I did ask once and it was somewhere around 30k actual club members, not including those who study but not members.  I hate the way it is all going, and will likely be getting out soon.  with me I will take my knowlege, and opinions, and freedom of free speach. Please don't let the few, spoil your view of the many.  I can't speak much about me personally as I am very well known there, and would rat myself out in a heartbeat, but the program does work, and works faster the higher your IQ.  Most of you here, have had formal training, I asume, lots of lessons and such, and have been taught "commo sense".  but there are so many people who are isolated, and get in way over thier heads.  Parelli helps them understand thier horse and be safe.  sure many don't ride, but what is wrong with that.  do they have to be like YOU for it to be right?  they love thier horse, and are learning amazing things, ON THIER OWN.  you have to give those people props.  horses are far from common sense.  it only seems that way to you because you have had someone teach you.  then there are others like my self, who spent thousands of dollars with international dressage judges and got no farther than nearly getting killed doing what he suggested.  (minus personal history that is good reading but well known) when i found parelli, i learned all the secrets to horses that even olympians don't know.  there is good and bad on both sides of the fence.  PERIOD.  I have seen young girls, teenagers teaching thier horses high level dresagge on mustangs, in thier back yard.  alone.  i know it isnt classical, but my god, how can you really deny that it is good and call it common sense.  the spanish walk is anything but common sense and little kids are learning it from books and dvd's.  

this is all so sad.  i have defended against proposed greed for many years, but it didn't used to be like this.  now it is becoming the way, many have accused it of being for so long.  doesn't make them right, because back then it WAS different.  now, i just don't know.  I have my suspicions, as do many other long time students.  if they keep this up, we will look like a bunch of rats jumping off a sinking ship.


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## PapaFrita (10 July 2010)

Weezy said:



			An NVQ in Parelli, jeez, well I suppose it was only a matter of time, you can, after all, take a degree in football 

Click to expand...

At one point it was possible to take a degree in the Spice Girls!!!!


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## Keltic (10 July 2010)

From what ive read on another forum for his grand finale he lasooed the poor horse!!

It seems that this incident was viewed with disgust by so many people.....

Surely someone needs to do something NOW!! RSPCA??? WHW??? BHS??

to read an almost identical description of this abuse

http://horsegossip.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=53189&page=1


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## Weezy (10 July 2010)

Again, thank you tongue-n-cheek.  I think the whole payment scheme doesn't sit well with a lot of us, it is incredibly expensive and it does appear to be a huge money making scheme.  Let's face it, the Parellis are laughing all the way to the bank, and I think this has clouded their views somewhat - if they REALLY wanted to pass their views and training on to the general public, if they REALLY only had horses interests at heart, then they wouldn't be charging thousands of dollars for the privilege.


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## SirenaXVI (10 July 2010)

Tongue in cheek I would also like to applaud you for two thought provoking and intelligent posts.  It must be a bitter pill for you to swallow, seeing the man who started it all going against everything you stand for the way he has and I am sorry for that.

It is refreshing to read a post from a Parelli person that does not tell us all that we are all doing it wrong, only yesterday we had one tell us that we were all dinosaurs and that in time Parelli would be the only training method used.  This particular person had the previous week asked us all for advice when her 5yo chased her out of the round pen!


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## CracklinRosie (10 July 2010)

PapaFrita said:



			Oh purleese. Riding is not natural, so the buckstopper can't possibly be natural. I don't agree it's barbaric; if I were on a bucker I'd yank it's head up in the interests of self-preservation; probably far more damaging than the buckstopper. I liked the video. 
But then I do have a stick up my *something*
		
Click to expand...

I don't remember saying riding was natural. 

Horses, generally, buck for a reason and putting a thin bit of string in their mouth to deter thm is barbaric IMO. You yanking on a horses mouth is bad enough but compare your strength in kilos to a horses! No comparison!

Maybe you'd be better wedging the stick in your mouth and giving it a good old yank!


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## JessandCharlie (10 July 2010)

Tinypony said:



			"May I take this oportunity to draw a comparison, like the techniques or not, Intelligent Horsemanship is a non-profit organisiation, and personally I feel NH could learn from this as it seems their basic philosophy has remained the same through it's developement, with no money to sway their goals etc as an organisation."


"Had pat admitted at the time that the horse needed more time, and not force or whatever else he needed, rather than feeling pressured to deal with it quickly using force for the sake of one demo, the horse world would have had far greater respect for him in my opinion."  - Unfortunately, that is exactly what I thought after seeing a demo by Kelly Marks.
		
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That's a shame, like I say, I'm not saying I'm pro or anti either of them. 
But it's disappointing to see somebody you believed to be great not live up to those expectations.
I also think it's easy to feel these people know everything, and when they don't people often ask why not?  (Not aimed at you btw, just generally)
I think we need to remember that these people are human, and while I in no uncertain terms condone force or mechanics, maybe we should expect less and not be disappointed (although many, me included, expect little in terms of the effectiveness of these methods)
For my part, this incedent has confirmed my suspicions that the intentions of PNH are no longer for the good of the horse.


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## Tinypony (10 July 2010)

Tongue in cheek, as you exit the Parelli camp you will be following a well-trodden path.  For me it was watching Pat teach a group of Level 2 students in the UK many years back, I realised that there was nothing he was doing that I wanted to learn.  The good aspects of PNH, and the better trainers who didn't quite fit the mould (and there are some good trainers) kept me in for a while longer, but when you've decided that you'd never let the person at the top take your horse's rope, what's the point?


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## tongue~n~cheek (10 July 2010)

Not everything is as it seems from the outside.  but Pat and Linda do not own a large portion of the company, to my understanding.  as a corporation, his name may be on the building, but that doesn't mean he runs things.  not saying he doesn't run them, just saying, you never know what goes on behind closed doors.

also want to add, as a student, what he did with catwalk has no effect on my horsemanship.  none what so ever. I however do see it as damaging to the parelli instructors, and stock holders.  it does directly effect them, which is why I will not go thru with being an instructor if this sort of thing continues.

there is alot more to the story of course, and I do agree HAD he explained upfront that one session was NOT going to be enough, he could have back off sooner and not "lost face".  parelli students are begging for an explanation too, and it would be educational for us to give one.  I will also say, on the someone trying to go home and do it, we are smart enough to know we don't have that kind of savvy, be it a good technique or bad one.  the programe teaches, ironically, good judgment, and a do what I say, not what I do kinda mantra.  so that is why student cannot tell you WHY he did it.  we flat out don't know.  

I for one, as a parelli student, would not judge him if he said he made a mistake.  but it is not the students that is the concerne here is it.  in many ways, it is now a catch 22, danged if you do, danged if you don't.


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## lastchancer (10 July 2010)

Keltic said:



			From what ive read on another forum for his grand finale he lasooed the poor horse!!

It seems that this incident was viewed with disgust by so many people.....

Surely someone needs to do something NOW!! RSPCA??? WHW??? BHS??

to read an almost identical description of this abuse

http://horsegossip.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=53189&page=1

Click to expand...

If a bunch of travellers were messing about like this at Appleby then the RSPCA would be all over them.
Linda P parades around bareback with a carrot stick and it's called Natural horsemanship. 
A young lad rides a cob bareback down the flash road with a (non-conforming)stick and they call it cruelty.

Good horsemanship is just that whatever the rider. Idiocy the same.


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## tongue~n~cheek (10 July 2010)

i would love to be able to tell you my story, or point you to my videos, if only to see that not all of us are stupid or blind.  I would love to be able, as a friend btw, brag about my recent acomplishment with my new horse. or of my many other experiences.  as a person truly proud of all that I have learned.

I can say that some things don't always look nice, but are good for the horse in the end.  this of course would be the extreme example of both ends, i hope it has an extremely good outcome.  I for one wouldnt' do it if I could.

i hope you guus CAN see that I see your point of view, and am here to share with you that many of us on this side see yours.

I supose if I leave the campgrounds, thre may already be a well trodden path, although, who knows I may be the trail blazer.


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## PapaFrita (10 July 2010)

CracklinRosie said:



			I don't remember saying riding was natural. 

Horses, generally, buck for a reason and putting a thin bit of string in their mouth to deter thm is barbaric IMO. You yanking on a horses mouth is bad enough but compare your strength in kilos to a horses! No comparison!

Maybe you'd be better wedging the stick in your mouth and giving it a good old yank!
		
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Umm, I believe the implication was that the stick was up my bottom. However, that's not the point. I still don't believe Monty's video was barbaric. Having ridden a serious bucker who buried me on more than one occasion I would've used the buckstopper in an instant.


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## tongue~n~cheek (10 July 2010)

here is a link to a pic this morning of pat and the stallion

http://twitpic.com/241h8v


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## domane (10 July 2010)

Um.... slightly off topic... for all of you who have waded through pages and pages to get this far.... please go to your User CP and change your page settings to allow 40 posts per page...("Edit Options") then you'll find it's only 6 pages long!!


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## lastchancer (10 July 2010)

Why is he sat on a bl00dy chair?? Everything this guy does gets on my nerves.
Has anyone seen a video from Friday posted anywhere?


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## Louby (10 July 2010)

Im not into Parelli so dont normally read any posts but seeing the length of this one have had a quick look.  Im shocked 
All I can say is if they do things like this in public, what happens behind closed doors!  The one of the half blind horse was enough.


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## pippinpie (10 July 2010)

tongue~n~cheek said:



			............ Most of you here, have had formal training, I asume, lots of lessons and such, and have been taught "commo sense".  but there are so many people who are isolated, and get in way over thier heads.  Parelli helps them understand thier horse and be safe.  sure many don't ride, but what is wrong with that.  do they have to be like YOU for it to be right?  they love thier horse, and are learning amazing things, ON THIER OWN.  you have to give those people props.  horses are far from common sense.  it only seems that way to you because you have had someone teach you.  then there are others like my self, who spent thousands of dollars with international dressage judges and got no farther than nearly getting killed doing what he suggested.  (minus personal history that is good reading but well known) when i found parelli, i learned all the secrets to horses that even olympians don't know.  there is good and bad on both sides of the fence.  PERIOD.  I have seen young girls, teenagers teaching thier horses high level dresagge on mustangs, in thier back yard.  alone.  i know it isnt classical, but my god, how can you really deny that it is good and call it common sense.  the spanish walk is anything but common sense and little kids are learning it from books and dvd's...............
		
Click to expand...

Well said TnC. All your posts have given non PHN's a good insight to the wonderful side of PNH and I agree that things don't look good from the outside!
Keep up the good work with the wild one ;-)


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## tongue~n~cheek (11 July 2010)

Thank You.  I have always hated the "them vs us" from both sides.  both pre parelli and post parelli.  I wish I could tell "all" but sufice it to say, I know first hand the feelings of those on the outside, and now those on the inside.  

I do have a calculator and know how to use it.  lots of $$ was coming thier way, and soon lots will be leaving too.  sad.  

I can't remember who said it or on what page, good gosh my eyes are buggin out from staring at the screen all day.  but, rarely does anyone say anything that truly causes me to stop and ponder.  I mean one that will make me think about it for months, and read people with thier horses seriously.  as i do pay attention.

but something about asserting dominance is a self fullfilling prophecy, and sets you up to always have to assert it.  I will say, that is food for thought.  In my experiences, I can't agree with that off the bat, but will pay attention to see if I think it could be true.  I would at first sight say, no, but maybe in some instances it could be true.  parelli doesn't really focus on "alpha" while it is the basis, the focus is on being a good LEADER not a DOMNIATOR.  of course one would never know based on the current goings on.  but LEADER is the word of choice, and does give one a different mind set when working with the horse than the mind set of dominance.  word play does effect humans, and often changing one word in your vocabulary, can change your whole life.


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## kirstyl (11 July 2010)

Troylimbo1 said:



			Can I just highlight the section where you say you were 'appalled' that you saw Monty Roberts using a bucking strap in the same way as Pat Parelli.
He certainly DOES NOT put rope into the horses mouths - he actually ties it from the saddle to the head piece of the bridle so that the horse cannot lower his head to allow him to buck.
Mr Roberts is not even in the same league as this plonker (putting it mildly)
		
Click to expand...

The rope was certainly under the top lip of the horse in the demo that I saw with Monty Roberts.  The horse belonged to a friend of a friend, he was a violent bucker.  They asked to buy the bucking strap afterwards.  They were sold it at some extortionate price just as a long bit of string as apparently bucking straps that go in the mouth are illegal here.  Probably 10 years ago.


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## Hollycat (11 July 2010)

I'd just like to say thank you to tounge in cheek for posting. Parelli is often villified on this board - and I think its good to see a well thought out view from someone who is obviously into it very deeply

I have seen very good results with Parelli/other NH methods. I am not the type of person to join any one club as it were, and would never get involved in Parelli in a million years. BUT a friend is very into Parelli and I have taken a few odds and ends of what she has shown me and I have stored  that knowledge for later use.  I may never use it, but I may come accross a horse one day where I think it is worth a try. Many people would be surprised that they use Parelli techniques themselves.  Its just knowledge many of us have and use which has been rebranded and packaged.  I don't want to reinvent the wheel and I am happy to take any knowldge someone can give me whether its called Parelli, Natural horsemanship or anything else

I am really surprised no video has surfaced as yet.  I am pretty horrified and have a nasty feeling the reality of the video may be worse than just reading about it 

Just edited to say things we often do anyway shouldn't be called Parelli techniques as they were around long before Parelli rebranded them and many of which I was taught at the pony club many many moons ago!


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## brighteyes (11 July 2010)

*tongue~n~cheek*

Brilliant, candid and refreshingly honest post, which is both helpful and reassuring.  Thank you for taking the time to join HHO and not only disclose your association with PNH but promise us that not everyone follows P&L blindly and without question, whatever they do.


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## Ravenwood (11 July 2010)

tongue~n~cheek said:



			but something about asserting dominance is a self fullfilling prophecy, and sets you up to always have to assert it.  I will say, that is food for thought.  In my experiences, I can't agree with that off the bat, but will pay attention to see if I think it could be true.  I would at first sight say, no, but maybe in some instances it could be true.  parelli doesn't really focus on "alpha" while it is the basis, the focus is on being a good LEADER not a DOMNIATOR.  of course one would never know based on the current goings on.  but LEADER is the word of choice, and does give one a different mind set when working with the horse than the mind set of dominance.  word play does effect humans, and often changing one word in your vocabulary, can change your whole life.

Click to expand...

Re the above.. Don't you think though that when you bond with a horse (by the way, I have no experience whatsoever with Parelli or NH etc) that the horse just trusts you?  For example, I took on a chestnut mare unseen who came with an awful reputation but once we "bonded" (and I know this sounds desperately Enid Blyton) but my horse really does love and trust me but no one else.  So now I can hack her alone, ride with her stable mate but take her off elsewhere during that hack or hunt etc.

What I am trying to say is, that whether you dress it up as Parelli, NH or any other name, surely it comes down to empathy, personality and a general, deep down "way" with horses or as others have put it - general common horse sense?

I wonder then if that can be taught or does it come naturally if you are either brought up with horses or have a general animal (whether that be horses, dogs or whatever) sync with those animals?

I make no bones about the fact that I have working gun dogs, horses who hunt etc - ie they all have the job they were bred for.  And when they come to me as puppies, new horses, then I set the rules and the boundaries from the word go - the animals know where they stand, they love me for it and for the rest of their adult life they give me no problems whatsoever!

So in conclusion I rather feel that this money making game is so unecessary and a good horseman come naturally.  Do you really need to assert dominance or "alpha" status or is this what I am doing without realising it?


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## toffeesmarty (11 July 2010)

Hollycat said:



			Many people would be surprised that they use Parelli techniques themselves.  Its just knowledge many of us have and use which has been rebranded and packaged.  I don't want to reinvent the wheel and I am happy to take any knowldge someone can give me whether its called Parelli, Natural horsemanship or anything else

Just edited to say things we often do anyway shouldn't be called Parelli techniques as they were around long before Parelli rebranded them and many of which I was taught at the pony club many many moons ago!
		
Click to expand...

I agree with what you have put! Most of us in the UK dont see the need to follow a programme that was originally designed to eradicate traditional USA based horsemanship practises resulting from poor breaking processes and rodeos riders being deemed as horseman.
In the UK our relationship with the horse is no longer established on agression or brutality meaning many of the lessons the Ps are trying to preach here are irrelevant as our history is so different. 
Since Anna Sewell we have recognised the true beauty and fragility of the horse and the basic problem as I see it is that the averagehorseowner in the UK uses many of the same tecniques of listening and working with their horses anyway. 
I resent being told by P followers that following a  traditional approach is cruel, disrespectful and unkind when it is nothing of the kind. I am quite capable of listening to all of my horses and do not need someone to tell me they have a right or left brain!


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## Ladylina83 (11 July 2010)

Ravenwood very well said ! I have just posted something very similar on the new facebook page


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## Box_Of_Frogs (11 July 2010)

Raise your hand if you think Parelli practices should be outlawed.


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## Munchkin (11 July 2010)

I don't think they should be outlawed, because that would outlaw a lot of the everyday things that most people manage to do with their horses anyway. I would like to see P&L knocked off their pedestal though, sooner rather than later.


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## Ravenwood (11 July 2010)

I am now wondering if this is a culture difference?  Perhaps, as they started, that these methods are wholeheartedly embraced in America but not so welcomed in the UK, where we have a completely different outlook on horses


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## ponydentist (11 July 2010)

Wow! You were'nt Joking bright eyes when you said this had stired up a hornets nest.

I started this thread originally to ask other attendees at the demo on their interpretation of what was seen. 

I am in no way connected with Parelli. I am an equine dental practitioner who uses equine psycology learned from working with personally and studying the methodologies of a great many horsemen and horsewomen around the world, Pat Parelli being one of the many. My reasons for attending this particular demo included, I knew the horse involved was EXTREEMLEY head shy and hard to bridle, which is a problem i often help people and horses with (as an EDT who specialises in working with horses who have always previously had to be sedated I often have to help horses with such problems before I can use my Speculum.....or gag on them) and as such held a particular interest to me. Also, my wife had never seen Pat live and she was interested to see one of the Horseworlds great Masters at work. (having already seen another one, Edward Gall give a demonstration earlier in the day.....and YES....one can compare the two because they are BOTH truley GREAT horsemen). So seeing as we were competing our horse there at Stoneleigh that day and were staying the night, we went along. Also we had mentioned a problem we experience with our own horse and were asked if we would be prepared to let Pat help us with him in the demo to be held on the Saturday night, an offer to which we said yes with no hesitation whatsoever...because, due to the nature of the problem we were experiencing sometimes (he explodes when exposed to crowds clapping and to PA systems) with Cody this type of scenario is exactly what I have been wanting to create for some time.

I will give my account of what happened sometime on Sunday on here. I have just finished reading every single post and some of what is said is thought provoking.....some is just pur twaddle.

watch this space.


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## tongue~n~cheek (11 July 2010)

Ok, yes some people have a natural way around animals, my child is one of them. the wildest horse I had was trusting of my child instantly, and also a few adults, yet also, ran like heck from others. then out the barn.  also see people who have never had a lesson, or read books, or had a grandpa that was a cowboy, just have a 'knack", other, one of my students in particular, while good being instructed, cannot read a horse or it's reactions to save her life.  her husband, new to horses by a few months, totally gets it, but is, well lets just say he'd be beet up on the school yard.  no athletic ability what so ever. 

yes the UK has a culture drenched in good horsemanship.  we here in the states, not so much.  but let me say, anti parelli is alive and thriving here as well.  if not worse.  we gotta live with those cowboys everyday, and see atrocities that y'all would want to put a bullet in your own head to keep from watching it.  we still have wild horse racing, youtube search it (sharkonline, you will cry for weeks.  we cant even get people to stop this, and can't even get animal lovers to sign a stupid petition to ban it, yet they were all on board for anti-rolkur and anti-parelli petition.  these races KILL horses, and only a few are willing to put a name on a piece of paper.  sick.  though I may not agree with pat did yesterday, need video to make up my mind, from where I sit, it wasn't abuse.  there are far worse crimes that need to be stopped before parelli.

I agree at how ALOT of people would be shocked to know they ARE infact inately 'natural" with a horse.  there is no such thing as common sense with a horse.  first you would have to agree that all people have common sense to begin with.  I can see people not needed it as a program, but to ban it all together is excessive as well. 

I will agree that horses, once bonded will usually jump the moon for you.  but how do you bond with a horse?  wouldn't you agree that what ever creates a bond, is right?  trust me when I say, Nh'ers hear this from me too.  I am anti hate, pro live and let live.

I truly am sorry for anyone who was acosted by an NH'er as I was one of them moons ago.  it isn't right, and pat and linda niether suggest it or condone it.  

I will say that while i may not agree with the method or extent to which it was applied.  I could probably watch the video and understand it.  the person who should be held accountable are the people who created this issue with this horse, not the guy who fixes it.

so many people are so quick to stone pat, that they really don't bother to try to learn.  doesn't make it easy with no explanation.  that is completely thier fault. p&L's.

thank you again for a warm welcome, and I hope to be a good will ambassador to bridge the gap over the sea of misunderstanding, hate, ridicule, and difference of opinions.


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## Lsrd1 (11 July 2010)

Greetings!  Yes, this is my first post, I got the link off another website and have read all the posts.  I just want to note that here in America, most people do NOT go gaga over Pat Parelli.   The primary customers are middle-aged women who are afraid of their horses.

I was just talking last night with a gal in this category.  She has been "studying" Parelli and of course now fancies herself a trainer.  She said that she was working on the 7 games with her horse and there was a sudden change in him; he became aggressive to the point where she needed to get out of the round pen.  Both I and another gal commented that the Parelli people that we have met tend to have pushy horses, confused horses, and overall, horses that they do not ride.

I would certainly never count Pat Parelli as one of the world's great horsemen.  I would, however, count him as an excellent marketer and salesperson.  Wish I'd figured out a way to charge a ton of money for a $6.95 whip by just calling it a carrot stick.


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## tongue~n~cheek (11 July 2010)

one thing to add, here in the states , we also have a government that is OK with sending horses to slaughter for meat, especially our beloved mustangs.  horses are, for most intents and purposes here, a nuisance, except to those who have them.

i disagree with majority of parelli people are middle aged women who don't ride.  one thing that really gets me, on both sides, is the willingness to state something as a fact, that they know nothing about.   I know ALOT of parelli people.   ALOT 

less than a quarter are middle aged women.  there are a ton of kids.  and good ones too.  they amaze me everyday.  I wish I had known then, what I know now.  there are a surprising number of men as well.  considering we women tend to dominate the horse world, at least here any ways, it stands to reason that a good number of them would be middle aged.  I also saw a great audtion of a 70+yo woman just learning horses, passing riding bareback and bridless.  from my experience, a great deal of middle aged women are afraid of thier horses regardless of the method they use.  parelli at least helps them!  research before you speak


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## Lsrd1 (11 July 2010)

No need to research; here in the midwest state in which I live, that's the audience.  One gal lives just about 1/4 mile from me.  I've known her since 1998.  She does Parelli and has never ridden any of her 3 horses.  I've gone to some of the Parelli presentations and although I did not conduct a scientific analysis of the crowd, I simply looked around that that's what I saw; middle-aged women.  And you're right, good for those that can take something from any presentation and use it to further their equine handling knowledge.  

We do quite a bit with our horses, during a year we ride with hundreds of people at various events.  I've never run into anyone at any of those who states they are a Parelli follower.  As I noted in my previous post, I was talking about people who I have actually MET.  Not everyone in the world who follows Parelli.  I'm more than willing to believe that some people are able to use these (rather common actually) techniques to develop better skills with their horses.  My guess is that many of the most successful use a bit from various programs, and then also ride their horses.  

I think that what many people are skeptical about is the cult-like following; good to know that not everyone in the Parelli circle is like that, but you do have to realize that for the general population of horse owners, that's the perception.  It's great that you, a Parelli practitioner, came on here to challenge that notion.

edit to add:  I just saw that I'm a "foal"!  LOL that's kind of cute!


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## tongue~n~cheek (11 July 2010)

I hear ya.  unfortunately for me, as a parelli follower, I am all too aware of the general populations perception of parelli.  for the longest time, all my rope halters were black, as to not draw too much attention to myself.  My friends shunned me, ridiculed me, and even stopped talking to me.  not because I put them down, because I didn't, just because they hated parelli.  I have spent ten years hearing the perception and defending it.  You are far from the first to talk about middle age non riding women.  My favorite is the circus view.  mainly because, what the heck is so wrong with THAT?  circus horses are cool and well trained.  few of us could could train circus horses like that, so honestly, it's a compliment  I have heard them all, including personal stories about pat from people who have gotten the story from a friend of a friend, who never met pat or anyone he knew.  and still I am prejudged the second anyone see's that carrot stick.  but I don't care anymore.  I am good enough, that my skills speak for them selves.  either you respect me or you don't.  be it a preconcieved notion or actually bothering to get to know me. I dont shove parelli down anyones throat, but you wouldn't want to run into me these days, and put me down to my face, you just might get a whack with my carrot stick  I don't dish it, so I wont take it.  I talk big smack, really a pudycat

Here's a mind bender for you all.  though I am a die hard parelli person, i still follow other clinicians, still recieve my dressage today, and learn from anywhere I can.  I am not unique, many club members are just like me.  what the program does, that is so great, is axactly what people put down pat and linda for.  it takes eons of horsemanship, melted together, and put into a logical sequence for people to learn from.  he freely admits he didnt invent this stuff.  the only thing they lay claim too is horsenalities.  which BTW is awesome.  I can peg a horse now from a great distance, and know what strategies will work best for it.  it has yet to fail me.  the only failure is in reading the horse wrong.  which again comes down to person aptitude.  if a person is enept at one thing, they likely will be enept at another. 

again, some of these kids flat out amaze me.  I admire them, respect them, and envy them.  they are smart, with horses. they are still immature in other areas and have alot to learn about interpersonal relationships, though that is not exclusive to kids

it is a shame, that more people cannot see the good in it, for those who use it, follow it, live by it, what ever, and vice versa.  natural horsemanship is nothing more than a collection of astute observations by great horse people over the centuries.

speaking of what this side may think of as morons, new people to parelli still learning the ropes, of waaaaay back in the day, when I first started dressage. I had  book by charles de kunfy, I read every word of it, and went out to "do it'.  no results.  read it again, same.  studied it.  same.  I chucked it into the bookshelf and moved on. some 6 yrs later after studying under one of steffan peters students, who was awesome horseman, terrible human being.  and finally getting the 'classical" way.  starting from scratch again. and I finally learned how to truly ride a horse, how to be one with it.  it was magical, but that's another story, anyways I picked up the book again by accident and started reading it.  it was everything I had just learned.  SAY WHAT?  I was totatlly perplexed at how I did NOT get this CLEAR message in the book, that literally jumped off the pages to me that day.  I read the whole thing in a day, and understood everyword of it, and picked up some new tips as well.  it dawned on me.  no matter how good the teacher, how clear the message, you will not get it without a fundamental understanding of the basics.  parelli does try to set things up, starting with basics, and building upon knowlege from there.  it is logical and well thought out.  I don't have to spend thousands of dollars a year getting lessons, to learn only 1/8 of what is one package that they sell for a couple hundred bucks. and i can re-read it, watch it, at my leisure, and usually pick up something I had missed or forgotton.  you can't recall lessons that way.  don't get me wrong, have nothing against lessons.  give 'em myself every week, and get them too.

parelli is geared toward general horsemanship.  they are just now expanding this into fundementals of performance, and linda is just now learning from walter zettle, something I learned years ago, cant state how long, but long.  

there are things about the organization that i hate.  i don't use the word lightly.  i had been sitting on the fence myself about becoming an instructor as I would have to stop teaching main stream riding(discipline not important).  not pleased about it, but finally decided I would go for it anyways, as i truly believe in thier program.  but then the last year happened, and I am now at a loss.  to say the least I am spooked. IF I ever do decide to become an instructor, it will not be a descision I take lightly and will have wieghed things out carefully.  for now it is on hold, and all I can say is 'whew' for now.  i trust pat that he did what he thought was best for that horse.  I just don't trust his judgement for the when and where.  on the one hand, it was brave and honest of him to not hide behind some barn and do this, but bravery isnt everything either.


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## tongue~n~cheek (11 July 2010)

Well it is long past my bed time, I have a big horse show tomorrow, will be gone all day.  horses washed, trailer finally packed.  i want to thank each and everyone of you for your kindness, generosity, and openmindedness, to allow me to speak my mind freely, and share my views with you.  Hopefully, I have given you a glimpse into the world that I live in, love and enjoy.

I just want to leave you all with one lasting thought. 

Humans, generally speaking in broad terms, have a need for belonging.  to be a part of something bigger than themselves.  to not feel alone in the world.  Parelli as well as traditional sports, provides those that do not have dreams/goals of competing, a place to belong.  a place where they can come and share thier achievments with other people who enjoy the same things as them.  you can be a part of a large comunity, and make friends from other countries even though you may be one of few NH'ers, who actually reside in your country.  Like this forum, the club that many think is cult like, is just a meeting place to share, just like any other forum.  yes there are threads bashing the outsiders, but is usually squashed quickly by another member.  we really do try to be fair, and in all reality, the outsiders out number us greatly.  everyone has thier own path to follow, and thier own lessons to be learned.  not just with horses, but people too.

I think back to my youth, in my room in town, drifting off to sleep dreaming of horses.  horse pictures all over my walls, doodles of horses on all my school books.  hoping that someday, i could have a horse of my own.  when driving with my mom through the hillside, I would imagine I was riding a horse in the field we were driving by, cantering and jumping all the fences.  i would and still do, get whiplash if I actually ever saw a horse.  My friend and I would be playing like we were horses at recess on the playgound, while other girls were already worrying about what to wear.  I wish I could speak to that little girl and let her know, don't worry, someday your dreams will come true.  someday you will have more horses than you know what to do with. you wont go to the olympics like you will later dream of doing, but this dream that you dream tonight, WILL come true.  you will have amazing relationships with horses, achieve things you will never dream possible, and meet so many friends along the way, you wont know what to do with yourself.

isn't that what we all would want to say to our little girl selves?  Not that we will grow up to condemn others because they love horses differently than we do.  that little girl would cry if you told her that.  some will have to tell thier little girl that it will be a long time, somewhere around middle age, and even though you will grow up to be afraid, your dream will come true too.


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## new-here (11 July 2010)

Oh dear, I just posted a huge comment and forgot I hadn't signed in. 

Now I'm too tired to try to post it again!

*tongue~n~cheek* basically said everything I would have said, so just read those posts and pretend they're mine 

I only just joined to I could write a little something here, and I remain annonymous because I don't wanna be hunted down by the Parelli Police along with *tongue~n~cheek*, so please don't make assumptions about me!

I'm 16 years old and have been studying Parelli for nearly 3 years. I am in no way brainwashed. I'm not a sheep, never have been, never will be. 

Before Parelli, I had an awesome pony, like mostly all of you do, and I had a great relationship with her, like all of you do. I am well aware that you dont have to do Parelli (or any NH for that matter) to achieve great results and find a truly unique bond with your horses! My current horse is stabled at a yard with over 50 horses and I am definately not the only one who has an almost unbreakable bond with my equine partner.

The yard at which my horse lives is populated by lots and lots of different people. I have never once forced any of them in to any of the methods I now use and generally do everything I can to ensure that I dont unintentionally spook any of their horses while I'm playing with mine. Many of the people there are really amazing and I would never, ever consider myself to be any better than them. There are some silly kids there who like to try and copy what I'm doing, but as long as I make sure to tell them when they're being unsafe or attempting to do something ridiculously stupid, everythings great. I always try to set a good example by always wearing a hat and being as safe as possible (usually safer than any one else!).

Up untill 3 years ago I used traditional methods and all the "common horse sense" I had gathered through helping out at the riding stables and riding other peoples horses along with bringing on my own. I would be a hypocrite to say anything against any one here, or anywhere else.

I can't really comment on anything that happened at FOTH as I wasn't there, but I will re-assure you that there are a LOT of questions flying about the Savvy Club Forum regarding the matter at hand.

I'm sorry for any spelling or grammar mistakes, I'm tired, have sore eyes and am pretty worried about the future of Parelli.

Thank you to everyone who is remaining open minded!! 

xx

P.S oopsy, I think this post is longer than the original one.


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## Red30563 (11 July 2010)

tongue~n~cheek said:



			I think back to my youth, in my room in town, drifting off to sleep dreaming of horses.  horse pictures all over my walls, doodles of horses on all my school books.  hoping that someday, i could have a horse of my own.  when driving with my mom through the hillside, I would imagine I was riding a horse in the field we were driving by, cantering and jumping all the fences.  i would and still do, get whiplash if I actually ever saw a horse.  My friend and I would be playing like we were horses at recess on the playgound, while other girls were already worrying about what to wear.  I wish I could speak to that little girl and let her know, don't worry, someday your dreams will come true.  someday you will have more horses than you know what to do with. you wont go to the olympics like you will later dream of doing, but this dream that you dream tonight, WILL come true.  you will have amazing relationships with horses, achieve things you will never dream possible, and meet so many friends along the way, you wont know what to do with yourself.
		
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TnC, that made me cry.... so beautifully written and so true for so many of us. Thank you for your truly enlightening, interesting and eloquent contributions to this thread. I wish you all the luck in the world with your future endeavours.

What an interesting thread this is! I do hope some video from Stoneleigh surfaces soon, but I fear it may not.

I have no personal experience of doing Parelly. I know one person who is a whole-hearted devotee - evangelical in the extreme. She just happens to be middle-aged and scared of her horse who she hardly ever rides. But that is by the by. I don't mind whose methods anyone follows - I enjoy discussing and learning from different people all the time.

What I do mind is that she says categorically that anyone who doesn't follow Parelli is cruel and an evil predator to horses. I suspect this statement is rooted in her own insecurities and lack of experience, rather than anything Parelli says, but it still annoys the heck out of me. I know I can't get into a discussion with her, as there is no 'other side' for her. So we no longer talk horses when we see each other.


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## 7HL (11 July 2010)

Actually I am over middle age and not a woman.  I believe in riding as much as I can.

There are fanatics both that follow Parelli and just as many that don't. If one can weed through the _*"pur twaddle" *_as *ponydentist* so aptly described, some people may learn something. 

Parelli techniques have taught me a great deal. But even he freely admits it was something he learned from others.I have a great relationship / partnership with all of our horses. 

I know I won't make any converts by posting on here. One can only make that decision for yourself.


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## touchstone (11 July 2010)

Personally I have never followed Parelli, so I'm not really qualified to comment. But  I was disturbed and angry when I watched the video of Linda Parelli with the horse that was blind in one eye, which put me off the whole method completely.  The most important factor when dealing with other sentient beings has to be compassion, I didn't witness anything of the sort in that video.

I'm not saying that there may be some useful stuff, but my fear is that you will get somebody with a headshy horse going to the demo who immediately thinks that twitching and tying up legs is a good idea, when there may be any number of reasons why the horse has developed this behaviour.  It has the potential to open the doors to 'approved abuse'.

I think the moral has to be the old saying of 'make no man your guru' and to always question everything, if it doesn't sit right then don't do it!  

7HL  Your sig states:- "Horsemanship can be obtained naturally through communication, understanding and psychology, instead of mechanics, force and fear"

Where would you say this ties in with what happened at the demo?  


Regarding the comments about the buckstopper, I think the difference is that it only comes into force whan the horse bucks, and after a horse I rode was pts as he had hurt so many people with extreme bucking, I can only say that i wish I knew about it back then.

Oh, and I am a middle aged woman!


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## flash1 (11 July 2010)

Is there still not a video avalible of what happened at the festival of the horse?? I would like to see it to be able to make up my own mind.


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## lannerch (11 July 2010)

Troylimbo1 said:



			Can I just highlight the section where you say you were 'appalled' that you saw Monty Roberts using a bucking strap in the same way as Pat Parelli.
He certainly DOES NOT put rope into the horses mouths - he actually ties it from the saddle to the head piece of the bridle so that the horse cannot lower his head to allow him to buck.
Mr Roberts is not even in the same league as this plonker (putting it mildly)
		
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Agree 100% 

Please do not tar all nh methods with those described by mr parelli on that unfortunate stallion.

nh methods ( imo no the parelli kind ) involve understanding the horse and speaking its language, and politely insisting as its superior but never forcing, as it seems here!

I am ashamed reading this post that mr parelli is classified as a natural horseman as natural it is not! Rover Maxwell on the other hand now he is a good example as is endo, but I am yet to see a good example of parelli does not seem natural at all!!!


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## 7HL (11 July 2010)

Since I was not there personally to see it I can not address specifics.

Do  I object to twitching.... NO

Do  I object to hobbling .... NO

Do I object to laying a horse down ... NO

All said, it depends on the reason and who is doing it.

I know Pat usually doesn't take stallions at his demos. They take extra care when working with them.

My understanding is he did everything out in front of everyone. Unlike some trainers that might have taken the horse out of view to do what he did. I am sure that he said somewhere during what was presented that it took special skills and experience to  work with a horse that he was presented with. And  wasn't for everyone to do.

No where do I believe the was any "abuse" or harm done to the horse.


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## welshwizzard (11 July 2010)

7HL said:



			Since I was not there personally to see it I can not address specifics.


No where do I believe the was any "abuse" or harm done to the horse.
		
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??? now that doesn't make sense!


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## lannerch (11 July 2010)

agree it is very hypocritical

but welcome to the forum 7hl


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## toffeesmarty (11 July 2010)

Without repeating what has already been said. Is this not at the heart of the issue and is to a great extent a cultural one. 


7HL said:



			Since I was not there personally to see it I can not address specifics.

Do  I object to twitching.... NO

Do  I object to hobbling .... NO

Do I object to laying a horse down ... NO

.
		
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Everyone with an iota of common sense will know that working with a stallion will be more problematic. Both NH and non-NH followers would agree with that. It has has been said here the horse had a very longstanding and deeprooted level of headshyness - why therefore use this horse to demonstrate? It is obvious such degree of issue will require much more time than this type of demo will allow. 
Once some degree of progress had been achieved either give up and STOP before your ego gets hold of you and a battle of wills ensues.


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## touchstone (11 July 2010)

7HL said:



			Since I was not there personally to see it I can not address specifics.

Do  I object to twitching.... NO

Do  I object to hobbling .... NO

Do I object to laying a horse down ... NO

All said, it depends on the reason and who is doing it.

But all those things involve mechanics, force and fear?  The very things that you are supposedly against

Click to expand...


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## Elsbells (11 July 2010)

Scuse me but I was there and it was IMO abuse. 

Lets be sensible here. This horse was not going to kill anybody. He was not unsafe or putting anyone in any danger, he quite simply would not allow anyone to put a bridle on him and the kind of treatment he recieved was so uncalled for that I for one curled up into a ball on my chair, in horror at what I was seeing. That was NOT NH!!!! 

It is all very inconvienient for poor Mr Whittaker of course and it probably makes him very late going into the ring, when one of his difficult horses refuses to be bridled tut tut tut?

Mmmmmmm,....now what is that Pat has said about competition horses being pushed to young and to hard?????


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## amandaco2 (11 July 2010)

i think that treatment harks back to the age of tying down a horse and 'sacking' it out to break its fighting spirit.......
which is now called cruel and barbaric!


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## LucyPriory (11 July 2010)

I don't agree with tying horse's legs up for this purpose, or for shoeing/trimming etc.  When they are sedated for an op it may be necessary.

An awful lot of cruelty and bad practice is being peddled as 'horsemanship'.  It doesn't take a genius to work out that this type of practice is abuse.

Some will condone it because the horse is otherwise well treated ie it gets fed and exercised.  But you know that is the sort of thing spouse/child beaters say.  'It's ok because I love you and want the best for you.' as they break someones jaw.

And in some cultures this sort of behaviour is acceptable.

I think it is time to move on from accepting bullying/physical abuse.  Time to celebrate and appreciate a more intelligent approach.

And as for it being more acceptable to be violent with a stallion?  Try telling that to the Spanish Riding School.


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## Weezy (11 July 2010)

The thing is, if you were in, say Spain, and you saw a man tying a horse's leg up and laying it down there would be outrage.  It would be considered *breaking a horse's spirit* and yes, demeaning it in many people's eyes.  A horse is a noble creature, and seeing them trussed up and put to the ground does not sit well with people.  Yes, I understand the ethos behind it but that doesn't mean that I have to like it.

Just because it is *Parelli* it suddenly becomes acceptable to use ropes to hoist a horse's body around, and therein lies the problem.  Full explanations are not given because *if you want to know, buy the DVD/book/etc* and so the accusations, confusion and hatred continues.


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## Shysmum (11 July 2010)

sacking out is what Monty Roberts was forced to do as a kid - no wonder he found an alternative method. As for PP, I am just lost for words.  sm x


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## sakura (11 July 2010)

I have a bridle shy horse, he isn't dangerous with it, he just has a lot of bad memories and will do what he can to evade it happening again. But with time and patience, teaching him that the bit is a positive thing, he's improving - surely what Pat Parelli jumped into doing is merely reinforcing the horses fear? Certainly would be to my horse! 

I actually don't have anything left to say about parelli anymore.......


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## Teddybully (11 July 2010)

7HL said:



			My understanding is he did everything out in front of everyone. Unlike some trainers that might have taken the horse out of view to do what he did
		
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The fact he didn't and thought it acceptable to do in front of spectators would only make me even more concerned about what does actually go on out of view..


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## stolensilver (11 July 2010)

Having had a very headshy horse as a result of 2 lots of Liverpool cream (she had sarcoids on her poll) I know how hard it is to regain that trust once it is lost. What surprises me is that Pat and Linda would agree to use a horse with this problem in a demo that is coming from very, very experienced horsemen. If the Whitakers haven't fixed it then you can be sure the problem is a deep rooted one. 

That makes me think that either Pat Parelli is stupid and doesn't know how hard it is to desensitize a very headshy horse. Or he's unbelievably arrogant and thinks his methods are so infinitely better than anything the Whitakers can come up with that he would be able to turn the horse around in a few minutes. 

That Pat Parelli failed is no surprise to anyone with a brain. If the horse was coming from a timid amateur who had not really tried to address the problem then he might have stood a chance as the problem may not have been too bad, it just hadn't been addressed. But with the horse coming from experienced hands who would have spent time and effort and common sense on working through the issue its a complete no-brainer that the horse was very committed to being headshy and would take a lot of time to persuade him that letting humans touch his head was actually OK.

What is surprising is the decisions Pat Parelli took. Applying a twitch. Tying up one leg. Having the horse get away from him. Going on for 2-3 hours. None of those are good decisions and all of them have made huge dents in his reputation. Why did he do it? Why did he not just assess the horse, try advance and retreat with it, get it to bond with him, explain that the problem was a big one and it could not be fixed in a single session and let the horse leave? He may have been laughed at if he had done that but he deserves to be laughed at for his choice of horse. But if he had done that he would not have lost as much of his reputation as he has with the force he chose to use in front of a live audience. He set himself up to fail which is something he teaches people to avoid with their horses! How ironic he couldn't see that he was doing that to himself.


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## 7HL (11 July 2010)

Teddybully said:



			The fact he didn't and thought it acceptable to do in front of spectators would only make me even more concerned about what does actually go on out of view..
		
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Lets just say I am going by the fact I have watched him work with horses in person. Pat is what he is, in public and private. He doesn't do behind doors what  he wouldn't do in public.

I did not see the demo. I am only going on that I believe Pat would do. Its not blind faith or idol worship.

So how many of you are actually jumping on board the bashing without even seeing the demonstration? 

Pat, Linda the program does need me or others to defend it. It stands on its own. I know it works.


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## Changes (11 July 2010)

7HL said:



			I did not see the demo. I am only going on that I believe Pat would do. Its not blind faith or idol worship.
		
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Well there's a contradiction - if you believe and defend Pat without having seen the demo, then that surely is blind faith?


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## Hedgewitch13 (11 July 2010)

I get the feeling that it's the people who don't have the patience or don't have the knowledge to deal with their horses that turn to 'quick' fixers like Parelli. I didn't see the demo but why wasn't I surprised at the reactions of those that did?! 
It's just sad that the followers cannot see they are being totally ripped off by that shadey pair and why on earth have they given them some kind of demi god status? Jeez...
But more importantly it's the horses they deal with that I feel sorry for... those poor animals.


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## ponydentist (11 July 2010)

Ok, Hi everyone. 

I was at the demo in question with my wife who has never been to a demo by Pat Parelli or any of his associates. She has never been to any form of "NH" demo but she has been around horses all of her life.

I started this thread because I knew there would be people out there who were at the demo and i knew that some of the things seen there would cause contoversy. 

I love horses. They are my life.

Firstly let me state AGAIN, that I am not a member of "Parelli". I have owned and been around horses for all of my 46 years. I spent four years in the army working with horses and for the past 11 years have made my living with horses (as a qualified Equine Dental Practitioner). I have been in close contact with and worked on THOUSANDS of horses in my time. I have seen people handle horses in several countries worldwide in every concievable form of equestrianism and people who use horses for work purposes. During my time spent gaining my initial dental training I practically lived in the USA for near on two years and travelled extensively over there with several friends. I have worked on cattle ranches and with the Beaureu of Land Management on their wild horse (Mustang) adoption programme and have been involved with rodeo to some degree. It was during my time ata wild horse corral that i first saw anyone using what is now termed "Natural Horsemanship" methodology and techniques. it was a guy called Bryan Nubert. After watching him working on a wild mustang for an hour I turned to my friend (a working cowboy of 35 years and part native american) and said "now that is what I want to be like with horses". His reply was "yep, I told you it would be pretty amazing didnt I". From that moment on I strove to learn about horses as i come into contact with hundreds and hundreds of them every year. I attended clinics by as many different horsemen and horsewomen that I possibly could and I pestered badgerd and begged some of them to take me on as any form of hired help (inbetween attending dentistry school to achieve my instructor / lecturer status).  The people I have seen work include (totally expect that tongue in cheek will have have seen or heard of most if not all of them and most of you on here will not) Ray Hunt, Buck Brannaman (travelled with Buck for a while...he is the man behind the inspiration for Nick Evans book "The Horse Whisperer"...i.e, he is the original Tom Booker and the man who explained to me what laying a horse down is all about....which when fully understood makes absolute perfect sense) John & Josh Lyons,Pat Parelli, Kurt Pate, Craig Cammeron, Jeff Spencer (his son Justin and became good freinds as Justin is also an equine dental practitioner), Lesley Desmond, Dr Richard Miller, Dr Deb Bennet, Mark Rashid, Clinton Anderson, Bryan Nubert, Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling, Ken Faulkner ...Monty Roberts (and many of his students including Richard Maxwell and Kelly Marks). So I think I have seen first hand and studied several different methodologies and pretty much understand the psycology involved in their training techniques. I have seen some EXTREME cases handled in good and not so good ways both here in this country and in other countries worldwide.


I can say that, in my experience and opinion, there was no ABUSE to that horse by Pat Parelli or anyone else that evening at Stonleigh. The events which unfolded have beyond any doubt caused many people to change their view based on what was SEEN. It is clear that what many people SAW,they did not understand the rationale of. As is so very very often the case, we look...but we dont see...we listen.. but we dont hear.

I have helped cure many headshy and bridling problems and...Im telling you now...this was EXTREME. I feel that even Pat thought at some stage during that demo that it was going to be easier than he thought. I did from things I saw and different major breakthrough stages I saw being achieved by both horse and handler. I can honestly say that I and my Wife at no sage felt that the horse showed fear or distress other than discomfort. Some of the things seen would come across to some people as "not nice" .Even Robert Whittaker himself said that the way he and his staff used to get the bridle on and off the horse were "not nice". What i am saying is you have to be able to look beyond what you see. Read between the lines and understand the underlying psycology in what is happening.

Pat Parelli is undoubtedly...love him or loathe him...one of this worlds greatest horse lovers. yes....the man loves horse. There have been times, by his own admission, where he has not done the right thing with horses. 

Christ, there have been multiple times in mine where I have felt that guilt for what i have done...and anyone reading this who says they have never, unintentionally, caused a horse distress of some form then, in the words of tongue in Cheek,...get up there to God and tell him he's sitting in your seat. 

I have seen hobbling used many many times by many of this worlds greatest horsemen and women for different purposes....but....the vast majority of UK horse owners have never seen them used properly or been shown how to introduce them to horses. Pat Parelli Is as EXPERT as anyone in their use..end of..I dont have to explain anymore about that. If you want to understand the "Rationale" behind single leg hobbling look up Dr Richard Miller (the Veterinarian behind the phenomenum of "imprint training".

whenever anything "new" is seen by someone they are quick to slam it down....I was when I first saw hobbling and laying down used in this particular context. Pat did explain why he was going to use this "trick up his sleeve" and at the beginning of his demo he explained that that evenngs demo was going to be different to what many in the audience may have seen from him...He put a particular emphasis on the employment of "techniques" and how different horsemen and horsewomen use varying techniques to achieve the same goal. I feel as well that Pat wished to demonstrate here just how exteme this case was. Yes, you could GET a bridle on this horse...but to get him to accept and overcome his inbuilt fear of having it put on and taken off was something else totally different. He didnt fear the bridle itself (once it was on he accepted it no problem). He had  PHOBIA about the bridle going over his ears and the bit going near his teeth.  This horse was seven years old & I wouldnt like to hazard a guess when and in who's possesion the problem was CREATED, but a chain reaction has occured in the horses mind and a link in that cahin neede to be broken to "cure" the problem or resolve it for the horses sake. What Pat was trying to achieve was a tiny incident to be able to break the chain and set up a new one. He was looking for a good thing to reward the horse for...for the horse to see thru the red mist in his head and make the all important TRY.

With regard to the use of the "twitch" did anyone see, as I did, the COUNTLESS RELEASES of that "comanchee Calmer". This device was used by comanchee indians who copied it by observing the spanish invaders who brought horses to their country, when breaking their horses and when they went on horse stealing raids into Mexico to steal large herds of horses to sell and trade with other tribes. Each and every TRY that Catwalk gave that evening was rewarded......and evertime he simply said F..* O**.  he was made to feel uncomfortable this WASNT a punishment. Ive seen Several of the worlds leading horsemen and horsewomen use it and I understand anatomically and pyscologically WHY it was used. Weve seen links to Monty Roberts using it here in this tread. Its use last night caused no distress or fear to that stallion in that  arena that night. My wife said exactly the same

How many of you use a Martingale??? Its a RESTRAINING device....pure and simple....no argument. designed to put pressure on a horses mouth via the bit when the horse puts his head above a certian possition. The device used that night was used in the same context....to show Catwalk that life was far more comfortable for him and that really nice things happened when he lowered his head and that all the things he thought were going to happen...DIDNT happen...but uncomfortable things DID happen with his head in the air...Reverse pyscology...teaching a horse to overcome his opposition reflex.


How many people who were at the demo saw the point at which a major breakthrough was achieved by Catwalk??? Come on....explain that moment on here...I saw it...did you?? Did you see the points at which progression....and regression were made by the partnership in that arena last night. You may have seen several things such as a cowboy putting a rope around a horses leg   or throwing a loop over a horses head and then expertly throwing several coils into that rope which went over or close to the horses ears and that same horse shaking off any attempt to to have a bridle put on and resisting certain approaches and advances......but did you UNDERSTAND what was going on and why.

Does anyone reading understand the concept and pyscology used when "Laying a horse down" , as used in the Movie, The Horse Whisperer......the horse in that film was one leg hobbled at one point. If you saw it you wouldnt like it......but if you saw the end result you would be amazed and want to try to understand it. Buck Branaman explained it to me while I was travelling with him because i DIDNT GET IT.....but i do now.

On Saturday I watched Pat Parelli working for several minutes (out of public view) with Catwalk and he and the others didnt see me watching. At no time did he ever ABUSE that horse. He rewarded every single try that horse made. At one point he had a blindfold on the horse....how many of you would have kicked off at that....the stallion was not in distress....even with the blindfold on Pat rewarded EVERY single try that Catwalk made.


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## Fairynuff (11 July 2010)

rushyj said:



			I apologise for my tone in the earlier post but really all it is is body language which most of us have mastered years ago..  How many experienced people do you know who can predict which foot a horse will move next it is not a miracle it is body language.......
		
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a woman after my own heart! I think what the majority of horse owners do is called 'common sense' which arrives after many years of 'experience'. It certainly cant be bought. I like your way of thinking:


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## ponydentist (11 July 2010)

P.S. The whole demo....and ALL the work that Pat did with catwalk the following day was videoed as i saw the cameras on both ocassions. Who will see it will be anyones guess. But remember ...there were people there and if anything is edited (which I doubt it will be) people will expose the editing and question it.....me for one.


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## Munchkin (11 July 2010)

Alright, I'm going to switch "sides" for a moment and attempt to play Devil's Advocate.

Let's assume that what you're saying is all accurate and true, ponydentist - that the horse was at no point distressed and that his treatment by Pat Parelli was the kindest way to teach him to overcome his fear and accept a bridle...

The fact that this has kicked off outrage across the horse world, in both camps, suggests that there are many more people who "didn't understand" what they "think" they saw, than who did.  Add to this those who supposedly did understand it refusing to say anything other than "I don't need to defend Parelli, it just works, and I cannot possibly take the time to explain to a non-believer what he was trying to achieve" - and you end up with a lot of bad publicity. (I doubt I'm the only one who suspects they have no idea either, but are afraid to say so for fear of being laughed at by fellow Parellists..?)

Another result of this is a whole lot of kids and misguided adults, who have bought into Parelli, now awaiting the moment their horses raises its head when having a bridle put over its ears, so that they may copy what they think they saw on Friday night by twitching and hobbling their horses.  Let's assume PP was kind in what he was doing to Catwalk - do we think these people will understand his technique well enough to execute it kindly and safely themselves?  

Think Rollkur, for example. Like it or loathe it, fit, highly trained dressage horses with incredible suppleness and flexibility being asked to warm up in hyperflexion is not the same as a wannabe going home and riding their horse horrifically overbent because they think they're the next Anky. That's where the welfare issues really begin.

If Pat Parelli's main concern here was the horse, this work would not have been carried out in front of a crowd of spectators, as quickly as possible. It would have been a private consultation with Robert and his horse, taking the time it takes, as he so regularly likes to preach. His Friday night display would have been an easy-to-reconstruct session with a common problem that is easily and kindly fixed using his methods.  I can bet that there is no disclaimer from PP suggesting that nobody tries this at home - rather "buy this DVD and you too will be able to do what I just did!"

That is not a love of horses at this stage I'm afraid, although it may have started out that way. It's now a love of what the Parelli brand can give Pat and Linda financially.


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## ponydentist (11 July 2010)

I have information that after working with Catwalk for most of saturday, he will now readily acept a bridle and bit and will let ANYONE put it on and touch his head ears mouth etc.

A talented horse that wont be going to the dogs. 

As I said the key to this is UNDERSTANDING.....there are those who "get it"......and those who "dont get it".

All those who who fasten your dog up to your lorry with a lead to restrain it or prevent it from doing something.....or put a muzzle on it coz it bites........look out .....you may be abusing your animals.


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## flash1 (11 July 2010)

I did not see what went on and hope video of it all turns up soon so everyone can see it. 
I went to one of the two day events at the nec and was not impressed. A lot of happy, clappy people hero worshipping their Gods with lots of country and western music thrown in.

All Pat parrellis talk of preditors etc does not seem to go with tying up legs and gum lines etc.

I feel its a big money making scam that a lot of people have fallen for.

It has a very cultish feel to it and made me feel quite uneasy at the time.


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## Teddybully (11 July 2010)

Munchkin said:



			That is not a love of horses at this stage I'm afraid, although it may have started out that way. It's now a love of what the Parelli brand can give Pat and Linda financially.
		
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Absolutely.


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## Munchkin (11 July 2010)

ponydentist said:



			I have information that after working with Catwalk for most of saturday, he will now readily acept a bridle and bit and will let ANYONE put it on and touch his head ears mouth etc.

A talented horse that wont be going to the dogs. 

As I said the key to this is UNDERSTANDING.....there are those who "get it"......and those who "dont get it".

All those who who fasten your dog up to your lorry with a lead to restrain it or prevent it from doing something.....or put a muzzle on it coz it bites........look out .....you may be abusing your animals.
		
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Gosh, I had some respect for you until I read that tripe.

This horse would not have "gone to the dogs" - it'd have been bridled the way it was being bridled by RW's groom before PP got involved.

It is difficult to "get" something which nobody will explain because they follow Parelli blindly and are brainwashed into believing "not questioning" means that they "get" it, and that they must attack anyone who dares to question it. 

Thank you for just confirming that followers of this man really are all as bad as each other, even when it first appeared they had something useful to say.


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## muffinino (11 July 2010)

ponydentist said:



			I have information that after working with Catwalk for most of saturday, he will now readily acept a bridle and bit and will let ANYONE put it on and touch his head ears mouth etc.

A talented horse that wont be going to the dogs. 

As I said the key to this is UNDERSTANDING.....there are those who "get it"......and those who "dont get it".

All those who who fasten your dog up to your lorry with a lead to restrain it or prevent it from doing something.....or put a muzzle on it coz it bites........look out .....you may be abusing your animals.
		
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OK, cool, please explain to those who ''don't get it'' why this happened. Seriously, if we are ignorant of why, then maybe it would be better to explain why. From what you have said you have a better understanding of what was happening than those of us who weren't there and do not follow Parelli techniques, so would you please explain what the breakthrough was that people who were there should have seen, what the Comanche technique is & why it's used and what the purpose of the hobbling was please? Genuinely, I don't UNDERSTAND so please explain.

With my current UNDERSTANDING, I don't think you can compare tying a dog up to a lorry or muzzling it to what has been described as happening to to Catwalk, so please enlighten me.


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## stolensilver (11 July 2010)

Very interesting posts Ponydentist, thankyou for taking the time to write them. 

If I take what you tell us as true (which I do) there is still a big problem with what Pat did. He showed in public things that the general public were unable to understand and that could be misinterpreted. For someone who is a teacher that is a serious error and the enormity of the mistake is shown by the interest generated by this thread. It still smacks of arrogance. "Because I'm doing it you should trust me and accept it as OK". That isn't the way the world works. 

I'm an absolute believer in being relentlessly fair in order to train a horse to become a productive member of society. I think my mind works in a similar way to yours and I have no problem with short term discomfort for long term gain. As long as I understand why. That's where PP made his mistake. Without an explanation from someone the public trust there is only short term discomfort on show. And the backlash from that is not at all surprising. 

I do think he made a series of misjudgements in this situation. He may be fed up of having to show the world sugar coated horse handling. He may have a burning wish to show the world the tough stuff and the difficult stuff and show them that it is possible to fix it. But without preparing the public correctly, just as you'd prepare a horse for backing, the result of that lack of public preparation is fear which translates into vilification. 

I do actually think PP is a good horseman. He's not the best one out there, the best ones tend to have such a quiet manner about them they'd never be noticed if they stood up in front of a big crowd. PP is a mix of good horseman and outstanding showman. In the past he has shown his flair for marketing and showmanship and his success is testimony to that. But recently he's striking the wrong chord, showing the wrong cases to the wrong audience. Catwalk sounds like a perfect case to show to a group of advanced Parelli people. He was not the right case to show to a cross section of the general public, many of whom are not even horsey. If you make a very public mistake like that you pay a very public price. I think he will have learned a lot from this and will back off on what he shows to the public. Post graduate demonstrations are best reserved for post graduates. I do a lot of teaching, from undergraduates to professors. What I say to each group is completely different and if the skill mix in the people I'm teaching is too wide teaching becomes impossible. In that situation I send some of the trainees away to teach slightly more junior trainees which allows me to talk to the remaining people at the right level for the amount of knowledge they have got. If I did a professor-level talk to undergraduates they would fall asleep because they would not understand one word in 10. This is what PP did assuming Ponydentist is right. He showed very postgraduate training to a mostly uneducated audience. No wonder there has been a problem with interpretation of what was actually done to the horse.


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## Munchkin (11 July 2010)

Thank you, that ^ is the point I was attempting to make.


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## ponydentist (11 July 2010)

So Munchkin....and others. 

What crime are we crucifying Pat parelli for here? Horse abuse?? Using certain equipment?? cohercing others into abusing horses?? marketing and running his business in an inapropriate manner?? Running a Cult??? Selling unnecessary items of horse equipment to uneducated or gulliable horse owners (ha ha ha....horse feed companies, equipment manufacturers, tack producers etc etc etc do that every single day of the year......its called mass hypnosis of the equine fraternity).

I dont particularly like the way parelli is marketed. but some would argue his wife is a very asstute business woman.....before she came along he was virtually an unknown ex rodeo cowboy who was giving clinics and advice to horse owners virtually for free.

On that day I saw Edward Gal give a demo too.....another excellent in his field....riding and training dressage horses......how many people will go home and want to do what he was telling them that he does to train horses. People arnt forced to do things.......everyone will realise that what they saw Pat do that night was extremely complicated by many factors and they wouldnt even know where to start.


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## eahotson (11 July 2010)

Ponydentist you have really bitten into this thing that if you don't understand what the Parellis are doing you are at fault not them.He was suposed to be TEACHING.If I was suposed to be teaching your child to read and failed to do so and said basically it was your childs fault, would you swallow this codswallop.My experiences ofParelli teaching are this.I  a nice kind sweatheart of a cob.My nerves stem from my experiences with another horse not him.I bought him as a confidence giver and he has been marvellous.I decided to go to camp.It was a specialist camp for nervous riders and it said that some of the classes would be NH.I like NH generally.It turned out to be pure Parelli.Now I have seen some demos of Pat on TV which I thought were good BUT I didn't like the deception.None the less I was determined to have a go with an open mind and give it my best shot.The instructor started off by telling us all about how experienced she was and how the last group had got SO much out ofit all.I read the subtext which was If you don't like it its your fault.
We started off teaching the horses to back up swing this rope with a heavy clip at them.He didn't understand.He backs up beautifully of asked in away that he does including down the ramp of my rear unload only trailer.
She came up and started toswing the rope harder. He was trying to work out what she wanted.He thought she wanted him to lunge.He was TRYING to please.She started to yank at his head and had a complete hissy fit.YOU SEE WHAT HE IS DOING.YOU SEE WHAT HE IS DOING.You would have thought he had tried to kill her.
I decided I didn't want to do that anymore.In fact I really didn't want to do very much that she wanted me to do and I had good reasons.She became very assertive at one time.Your horse MUST do this.I shall expect you to do that! Will you indeed.We never went back.
TBH Pat Parelli would come out of this as a much better man if he could accept that he made a mistake.We all do make mistakes. Its human.I don't think Robert has come out of this too well either.


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## DragonSlayer (11 July 2010)

I believe that what gets up a lot of people's noses, and mine...is that those who are Parelli followers, have this desire to pass onto everyone else just how 'marvellous' it is, and will blatantly slate you because you aren't doing it yourself, accusing you of being cruel to your horse and telling you you are all wrong.....yes, it's happened to me. 

Someone 'tried' to tell me what I was doing wrong (whether I wanted their opinion or not) and they got told two words, of which I would be banned for if I said it here....

People call it a 'cult', and yes, that IS a good name for it, because trying to force your beliefs on someone else teeters on the edge of religion to me! 

A religion (there are several) which can accept that other religions exist and work alongside each other, is a good religion. The 'extremists' are the ones who try to force their ideals onto you....

Whichever way you look at it, there will be arguments of this until the cows come home, the Parelli people NEED to try to explain what they do WITHOUT accusing others of cruelty and god knows what else, the worst way to make enemies is to go into attack mode from the word go...

IF those who don't agree with Parelli, and STILL can't get around the idea of it and don't wish to accept it, then that is fine, I don't blame you for getting angry of issues being forced, but there HAVE been positive results obviously....and you just need to assume that those calling you abusive are just blinkered and narrow-minded, and you can happily carry on in life the way you were before!

This is in a Perfect World however, and THAT'S not likely to happen!


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## Munchkin (11 July 2010)

ponydentist said:



			So Munchkin....and others. 

What crime are we crucifying Pat parelli for here? Horse abuse?? Using certain equipment?? cohercing others into abusing horses?? marketing and running his business in an inapropriate manner?? Running a Cult??? Selling unnecessary items of horse equipment to uneducated or gulliable horse owners (ha ha ha....horse feed companies, equipment manufacturers, tack producers etc etc etc do that every single day of the year......its called mass hypnosis of the equine fraternity).
		
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All of the above? Like I said, I personally do not believe that what he did to that horse was acceptable, whether the outcome is a good one or not. In the same way he wouldn't agree with me slapping my horse on the a**e to get it into a trailer - but it'd still end up in the trailer.

IF I was playing Devil's Advocate and saying that yes, it all was lovely and kind and the best solution for the horse, I would still have a problem with him misguiding the public who at best, will end up out of pocket, and at worst will be attempting to recreate what they saw using their horses as the subjects.




			I dont particularly like the way parelli is marketed. but some would argue his wife is a very asstute business woman.....before she came along he was virtually an unknown ex rodeo cowboy who was giving clinics and advice to horse owners virtually for free.
		
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 Blame Linda then, I personally couldn't care less - they're both as bad as each other and I lost all respect for that woman when I saw a video where the owner (accidentally) smacked a horse in the face with a metal chain to which her reaction was "ooh, good clunk!"




			On that day I saw Edward Gal give a demo too.....another excellent in his field....riding and training dressage horses......how many people will go home and want to do what he was telling them that he does to train horses.
		
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Having seen Edward Gal's demos in the past I know for a fact that he would have been explaining in detail every bit of what he was doing. Not saying "don't ask me what I'm doing, it just works."




			People arnt forced to do things.......everyone will realise that what they saw Pat do that night was extremely complicated by many factors and they wouldnt even know where to start.
		
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It seems you have more faith in the human race than I do.


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## zefragile (11 July 2010)

Well I think I'll wait to see the video before forming such strong opinions as many on this thread


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## muffinino (11 July 2010)

I still don't UNDERSTAND...


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## muffinino (11 July 2010)

zefragile said:



			Well I think I'll wait to see the video before forming such strong opinions as many on this thread 

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It would be great to see it for ouselves, I agree. Maybe the Parellis should post one and clear this whole mess up. If they weren't doing anything wrong, that will be self evident.


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## eahotson (11 July 2010)

Why isn't the video available?Then we could all see how wonderful Pat is and how mistaken we all are? Yes?


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## Whoopit (11 July 2010)

I've read pretty much all of those threads.

Would someone who follows Parelli or claims to understand the purpose of the exercise with Catwalk just cut to the chase and f***ing stand up and explain to the rest of us what it was?

ponydentist, i believe you said you understood what he was/did & how he acheived - PLEASE EXPLAIN THEN.


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## toffeesmarty (11 July 2010)

zefragile said:



			Well I think I'll wait to see the video before forming such strong opinions as many on this thread 

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I think you'll be waiting a long time then! We might see is a video which showing the horse accepting of a the bridle that misses out most of the techniques used to get there. Or am I just being cynical?


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## stolensilver (11 July 2010)

This is Pat Parelli remember. We may eventually see an edited version of the video (complete with music) BUT only if we PAY FOR IT! :lol:


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## weevil (11 July 2010)

ponydentist said:



			The events which unfolded have beyond any doubt caused many people to change their view based on what was SEEN. It is clear that what many people SAW,they did not understand the rationale of. As is so very very often the case, we look...but we dont see...we listen.. but we dont hear.
		
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OK, I wasn't there and would like to see the video before I condemn anyone. However, it is clear that many people were upset/shocked by the way Catwalk was treated. It is all very well for the Parelli camp to dismiss these concerns by claiming that people did not understand the rationale but did they, at any point, explain what they were doing and the rationale behind it?

This was, I believe, a demonstration and therefore it should not have been assumed that the audience have any knowledge of the principles of Parelli. If any actions were open to "misinterpretation" then the Parelli's had a responsibility to their audience to explain these actions.

I have never seen a Parelli demonstration but I have seen many demonstrations by professional riders and on the whole they have all explained what they are doing and why they are doing it.


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## ponydentist (11 July 2010)

Who has ever had their horse sedated to be clipped? and if so why?

Who has ever used a twitch on a horse to say......pull its mane?

Who has ever held one leg up on a horse to make it stand still whilst say....for instance...puttinh hoof oil on....or putting on travell boots?

Who has ever tied their dog to a fence.....post....lorry etc etc .....or put a muzzle on it when taking it to the vets ....etc etc?


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## fjordhorsefan (11 July 2010)

ponydentist said:



			Who has ever had their horse sedated to be clipped? and if so why?

Who has ever used a twitch on a horse to say......pull its mane?

Who has ever held one leg up on a horse to make it stand still whilst say....for instance...puttinh hoof oil on....or putting on travell boots?

Who has ever tied their dog to a fence.....post....lorry etc etc .....or put a muzzle on it when taking it to the vets ....etc etc?
		
Click to expand...

Irrelevant.  Many of us will have done these, but we can explain WHY.  Parelli people never explain WHY they do things, and just say oh well you don't understand so you are stupid.  If we all understood WHY Catwalk was treated as he was, perhaps then we could form other opinions on Parelli.  At every clinic or demo I have attended, the teacher has explained what we will do and why we will do it that way - that is the mark of a good teacher.  The experience I have of watching Parelli DVDs is that there is never a reason for what he is doing, just a set of instructions.  Having just completed a teaching qualification, the understanding part of teaching is the most important - doling out a set of instructions helps no one in the long term.


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## Munchkin (11 July 2010)

I notice you've gone into attack mode rather than answering the question that everyone is asking. I'm heading out to ride now, cruel I know... I look forward to an explanation when I return


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## PapaFrita (11 July 2010)

I've followed this thread with a great deal of interest. Ponydentist, you appear to be becoming defensive and you are not addressing the VERY sensible issues brought up by Stolensilver, Weevil, Eahotson and others. We repeatedly hear that Parelli is the ONLY way, and that the rest of us are cruel in the techniques we use. If PP is using those techniques, then why are they only cruel when WE use them? If it's a lack of understanding, then why don't you, or someone else explain? So far there has been no explanation, just you saying that we ALL use restraining techniques, so what are we b!tching about, right? If we're all using the same techniques, what makes PP so great?


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## muffinino (11 July 2010)

ponydentist said:



			Who has ever had their horse sedated to be clipped? and if so why?

Who has ever used a twitch on a horse to say......pull its mane?

Who has ever held one leg up on a horse to make it stand still whilst say....for instance...puttinh hoof oil on....or putting on travell boots?

Who has ever tied their dog to a fence.....post....lorry etc etc .....or put a muzzle on it when taking it to the vets ....etc etc?
		
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But when we do these things we can explain why and generally, it is not done for demonstrative purposes and only for a short time.

Sedation in the stable when necessary is not the same as twitching a horse under lights in front of a large crowd.

I have no problems with twitching in general as long as it's not for too long but again, there's been no clear explanation as to why it was done in the demo and what the technique was.

I hardly think lifting up a leg for a few seconds to put boots on is comparable to tying up a horse's leg to teach it a lesson.

Dogs are a whole different ball game and I don't have a problem with tying horses or dogs up but again, there has been no real explanation of the technique used in the demo.

I still don't UNDERSTAND...


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## Sanolly (11 July 2010)

Well yes I've tied my dog to things, for example if I am walking him past a shop and need to get a loaf of bread - how is that cruelty?

Yes I have muzzled him for the vet, because he was in a lot of pain and even the nicest natured animal can bite when in pain and I was concerned for the safety of my vet and myself.

We have had an opinion from a person so experienced in Parelli that they were about to become an instructor and they didn't even understand what PP was doing with Catwalk. The groom is threatening to walk out, it doesn't sound all that harmless to me. Also your statement that everyone will realise that it's too complicated for them to try at home - what rubbish! So many idiots have no clue what they are doing and will do anything they see a "professional" do anyway.

NH should be simple yet effective - as I said on the last P thread I am a MR/KM person, I find what they say and teach simple, practical and effective. I went with a friend to a demo when their horse was being used as part of the demo - I can vouch that this horse was a pig to load, not because he was scared but because he was stubborn. I have been there helping them try and load this horse for four hours before giving up, then I walked with her as she hacked the horse home. I watched all the pre-demo groundwork they did and then the demo itself, no fancy tricks used or behind-the-scenes trickery and the horse was loading within 30 minutes - and I understood the whole process from start to finish.


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## perfect11s (11 July 2010)

ponydentist said:



			Who has ever had their horse sedated to be clipped? and if so why?

Who has ever used a twitch on a horse to say......pull its mane?

Who has ever held one leg up on a horse to make it stand still whilst say....for instance...puttinh hoof oil on....or putting on travell boots?

Who has ever tied their dog to a fence.....post....lorry etc etc .....or put a muzzle on it when taking it to the vets ....etc etc?
		
Click to expand...

  I think some of  us brits need to open our eyes and minds... there is so much going on in the rest of the world  but we plow on with the same old same old  Im sure pat p is a great horseman /showman as well as a salesman  but he has a certain way himself and im not sure many can emulate his way of doing things it seems like there are gaps  and things that we dont get...., Oh yes people use all sorts of harsh gadgets twitchs etc and how many will kick and pull a horse that just wasnt sure of something out on a hack or during schooling when if he had been given a second to look and see what he would have willingly gone on or over... most people need to literaly give the horse more slack!! my pet hate is tight reins the more you pull the more they brace why  dont people get it..  we need to understand more and remember we are oftern the problem  and not the horse...  The  horse will teach you if you'll listen...


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## ponydentist (11 July 2010)

weevil...

Totally accepted that Pat should have explained the rationale behind everything he did that night. Perhaps he's accepted that and perhaps if the video is made availabel......it will be narrated and not edited to reflect on that mistake.

I think that he has accepted that he should have explained the pyscology behind his choice of methodology to apply in that particular scenario. It was easy for me to see that even he realised as things progressed that with this particular horse....things were not going to be as easy as first thought.

There were some significantant turning points for horse and handler during the time and even I at one stage turned to my wife and said...there, did you see that....I'll give it twenty mins to half an hour now and he'll be accepting the bridle......Pat must have thought so too because a couple of mins later he went to get the bridle...I will add that all this time..catwalk was totally unstressed and the behaviour he displayed was not that of a frightened horse at all. I was wrong....and so was Pat.....but so what...we all do that. Ive seen top show jumpers doing demo,s and saying..."right, Think he's ready to jump higher now"....only to try jump the fence and the horse trashes it. 

When Pat went to the use of the gum pacifier he explained why he was going to use it and about what endorphines do in relation to interupting a horses chain of thought.

Admittedly he didnt explain about hobbling thoroughly enough for some people before going down that route.

the horse follwed him around ....freely at times.....after hobbling and there were oppertunities where the Stallion could have....and would have.... demonstrated his ability to use his feet if he had felt under TOO much pressure....but he didnt. He broke free yes.....but willingly led back to the spot from where he did.

Maybe Pats biggest mistake was asuming that the audience understood more than they did about horses.

The major breakthrough which is refered to in accounts of the events from Parelli was when catwalk walked over to Pat and put his head on Pats chest for him to rub it. 

To me its as if the horse was saying.....ok....ive got a problem....help me.......but lets quit here for now. And thats where it did end for then. Robert was asked if he was prepared to let Him work more with the horse and he said he was.

There were possibly some errorrs in judgement commited.....but no abuse.


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## jack9 (11 July 2010)

i read 5 pages and got annoyed.

has anyone got the link to the video of what happend??

i used to be all for parelli, but not anymore....  its all about ££ and the big name.


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## Tinypony (11 July 2010)

"Who has ever had their horse sedated to be clipped? and if so why?

Who has ever used a twitch on a horse to say......pull its mane?

Who has ever held one leg up on a horse to make it stand still whilst say....for instance...puttinh hoof oil on....or putting on travell boots?"

Irrelevant and - no, I've not done any of those things.  I use approach and retreat (as first taught in my Parelli student days!), not force.

I'm thinking this Parelli-speak is emperor's new clothes, and I'm qualified to judge having been a student for a long time and even worked for them.  I'm waiting for a decent equine behaviourist to join in here and explain what a horse really thinks when something like this is done to it, and why it follows the person who does it.

I agree with the person who said, if this had been seen at Appleby Fair reactions would have been completely different.


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## asterid (11 July 2010)

I am normally a sit on the fence type and let everyone else get on with it, but as I am in a foul mood anyway here is my opinion in non edited version.

Parelli is over priced clap trap and a load of b*llocks! If you are scared of your horse sell it to someone who isn't dont spend horse on the ground with a poxy string headcollar and a big yoga ball!!!!! 

I spend time on the ground with my horse for fun and I also practice dressage following sylvia lock and of course the gods who are the Spanish Riding School of Vienna! Yes groundwork has its place and I am in awe of the Spanish riding school, but it takes years and years of trust and practice! 

My horse is an ex racer OTTB bought in April, I ride her and lunge and long rein and just play at liberty in the school. But I dont need a F***ing carrot stick and an expensive head collar!!!  My horse trusts me without all that clap trap and quite happily follows me about! It is about spending time with your horse, trust and a bucket load of patience! NOTHING HAS A QUICK FIX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Parelli is utter codswallop and as soon as crappy horsemen/ women realise that they are **** and can't make it better with stupid gadgets the better!!!! 

(And breathes)


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## MrsElle (11 July 2010)

Ponydentist, I was reading your last post with interest and you were doing so well in explaining things rationally (instead of getting all defensive as in previous posts) until you described PP as 'Him'.  With a capital H that is normally reserved for God.

Sorry, but you can no longer tell me that you aren't brainwashed and Parelli isn't a cult (for want of a better word).

'Him'!  I really really can't believe that!


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## flash1 (11 July 2010)

Why is this sort of thing called 'natural horsemanship'? I dont think its natural to use a gum line or tie up a foreleg.
Some of these people make a big deal of being able to ride witout a saddle or bridle or put shoes on a horse but seem to think its ok to treat a horse like that. Wierd.


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## Troylimbo1 (11 July 2010)

ponydentist said:



			Who has ever had their horse sedated to be clipped? and if so why?

Who has ever used a twitch on a horse to say......pull its mane?

Who has ever held one leg up on a horse to make it stand still whilst say....for instance...puttinh hoof oil on....or putting on travell boots?

Who has ever tied their dog to a fence.....post....lorry etc etc .....or put a muzzle on it when taking it to the vets ....etc etc?[/QUOTE

The word that comes to mind here is desensitisation! Slowly slowly catchy monkey!
Nobody can expect a horse that is genuinely scared of something to stand there and take it but with time and patience most things can be overcome imo.
		
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## touchstone (11 July 2010)

I don't think that anybody is saying that restraint per se is bad or cruel, after all we restrain our horses with a headcollar every day; but unnecessary or over the top restraint is another matter.

I do think that this horse's issues could be resolved in a much kinder way with time and patience; the vids posted earlier in this thread with the headshy horse also showed a fairly extreme reaction, and yet it was sorted with minimal fuss and no twitches or tying up of forelegs, a  far better route to take than resorting to force straight off.  Yes, perhaps Pat Parelli  does get quick results, personally I'd prefer to give a horse with such deep seated issues time and understanding.

My grandfather was a very old fashioned horseman with working horses, he bought a horse that had been ear twitched and wouldn't let anyone near its head, at the time his horses were kept in stalls and he hung things from the rafters that meant when the horse used his manger, his ears got touched, he also worked on slowly desensitising him with running his hand a bit further up his neck towards his ears each day.  I was only a young child so I don't know how bad the horse was, or how long it took, but I know he ended up with a horse that could be handled quite easily.

So no, I'd have to say I don't understand the concepts Parelli is promoting and I'm not sure I particularly want to if there is another, to my mind kinder, way of dealing with it.  This strikes me as the type of quick fix, violent breaking techniques that I though natural horsemanship was trying to move away from, working with the horse and not simply dominating him.


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## ponydentist (11 July 2010)

I appologise here.

My use of capital letters etc in my posts is not meant to appear as if im shouting......im just trying to highlight....what i feel...in my opinion...are important points.....that i feel some are missing.....its just my opinion.....as are everyone elses. Im not being defensive......just trying to remain open minded. 

Ive just asked my wife why she insists on pulling Cody's (our horse) mane (which he hates). Her reply was "thats part of his job (show horse) and he needs to have it done".......Says who?? I am certain Cody would much rather prefer to be out in his field eating all day long everyday for the rest of his life.

How many of think that a horse enjoys having a bit in its mouth. It has clearly been demonstrated that horses can perform many tasks without them. So, if it is beyond a doubt proven that it can be done...why do so many still use bits. It is human supremacy over animals....its why we kep horses and other animals....it makes us feel better if we do.

There are few right or wrong ways to do things with horses......some may be seen through human eyes as less harsh or cruel than others....but are they the right way....or not. 

I attended a Ray Hunt trailer loading clinic once and a man asked Ray..."what is THE way then Ray to load horses" His reply was..."threre is no THE way....if you spend your life tring to find it you will ruin a lot of horses along the way...then how will you feel at the end of it" He then loaded 12 "unloadable" horses into trailers using different methods.

Nobody knows why this man chose to use this horse in a demonstration type scenario. But Im certain he will learn something from what has happened. What he did wasnt the wrong way....and he certainly never once claimed it to be the "right2 way during the demo......it was however "A" way. from starting at 7.30 friday evening to finishing sometime on saturday, it got a desired result and ended with a horse who has one less hang up then he did before friday.

My understanding of what one leg hobbling is about and where and how it should be applied...used..whatever you wish to call it...is that what tying one leg up on a horse does is that it puts him in a very vunerable situation / position.....posibly one of his worst case scenarios because he cannot run as he would like to if the need arose. whilst he is in that predicament he probably at some stage thinks hes going to die.....but if nice things happen to him whilst hes in that situation and his worse fears dont come true he can cope with and conforont thise fears in a much more confident way in future. In Catwalks case...his leg was temporarily (in no way harmfully) made unavailable to him. he could still stand up.....and was given the opertunity to realise that he could still move around if he felt he simply must do......yet the man in front didnt hurt him....cause him pain and still made good things happen when he allowed him to touch his ears and put his hands over his head ...then what could be worse than that....he didnt die like he thought he would. Pat didnt attempt to put the bridle on when catwalks foreleg was "tied" up (temporarily removed). It wasnt done primarily as a "RESTRAINT". He did ask him to lower his head....and to allow him to touch his ears and when he did this the rope was removed and he was given his leg back agin to show no hard feelings and your worse fears didnt happen....they were only that....fears in your own head. THAT was the point of the hobbling in that particular scenario....and that is how it happened. I agree that Pat should have said what and why was happening a little better. 

The use of the calmer (it wasnt a twitch as so many of you keep calling it) was to help him controll his emotions....horses cant multi task....they cant think and react at the same time. He was reacting.....he needed to get his "birdie" back in its cage.....i.e engage thinking mode.....endorphines help to do this and when applied correctly in the right places  devices such as this help with this. There is an element of discomfort in applying a device such as this.....in exactly the same way as there is when using a martingale to achieve the same way......does this mean everyone who uses one is cruel. keep remembering that this case was extreme......not dangerous....YET....but the problem ....AS IT TRANSPIRED in Catwalks head was deeprooted which makes you think.....my God...just what has happened to him to make it so. The calmer was released....by Catwalk himself....countless times.


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## ponydentist (11 July 2010)

Ok...no more posts from me. 

I understand the pyschology involved but im obviously  not very good a trying to portray it in writing....so I appologise there. Im not defending Pat parelli or putting him on his crucifixtion pedistal (and the use of the Captital H in the word him was purely a typo error)......im just explaining that I dont see this particular methodology which I have seen used several times by several leading horsemen and women to great effect with many troubled horses as abuse. What i have learned fom them more than anything else was to open my mind to as many things as possible......it was the turning point for me.

This whole incident will certainly be a learning curve for many.....in more ways than one. The horse which is what Im concerned about more than anything else here has come through this and has reached the other side without loosing any faith in human kind.

Continue with the witch hunt.


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## MagicMelon (11 July 2010)

Parelli is a joke.  Nothing more to say!


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## Tinypony (11 July 2010)

To work in that way with a horse for more than 2 hours is abuse in the view of many.  I don't know (or care) who else has done it with success, two (or three) wrongs don't make a right.
Certainly in my case this is not a bl**dy witch hunt, if travellers did this, or if the Queen herself did it my reaction would be the same.


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## eahotson (11 July 2010)

So asking questions is a witch hunt is it?


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## Bramley (11 July 2010)

We confronted Pat and Robert . I tried to get the officials to stop it. The gum line was cutting the horses lip and gums causing a wound. Pat tied up it's front leg  and also tied it's head to the front leg with Linda hauling on the rope. That horse showed no sign at any point of agression and just took the pain. The vet examined the horse the next day and found a wound under it's lip. He stopped Catwalk being used again. Thank god. I fely phisically sick and was shaking from top to bottom. To quote Roberts words when i asked him why he let his horse be tortured he said that was ok by him! Pat is six foot two and spent two hours hauling on that gumline. So much for love language and leadership. I have never seen anything so viscious in my life.  Pat did say he was sorry and what could he do to make it right with me. I said never do this again to a horse. Lets hope he never does.


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## Bramley (11 July 2010)




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## toffeesmarty (11 July 2010)

Bramley said:



			We confronted Pat and Robert . I tried to get the officials to stop it. The gum line was cutting the horses lip and gums causing a wound. Pat tied up it's front leg  and also tied it's head to the front leg with Linda hauling on the rope. That horse showed no sign at any point of agression and just took the pain. The vet examined the horse the next day and found a wound under it's lip. He stopped Catwalk being used again. Thank god. I fely phisically sick and was shaking from top to bottom. To quote Roberts words when i asked him why he let his horse be tortured he said that was ok by him! Pat is six foot two and spent two hours hauling on that gumline. So much for love language and leadership. I have never seen anything so viscious in my life.  Pat did say he was sorry and what could he do to make it right with me. I said never do this again to a horse. Lets hope he never does.
		
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Congratulations on doing the right thing for a horse who doesnt appear to have been listened to, by those far too willing to chastise those of us who do, without wasting our £££s!!
Sadly I doubt your intervention will make any difference because the P circus is just too big.


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## Abay (11 July 2010)

Funny how  Parelli have only posted session 2 and 3, but not session 1 on youtube
ETA sorry a shor clip from session 1
http://www.youtube.com/user/ParelliTube#p/u/0/8j25pS6ixWk


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## PapaFrita (11 July 2010)

ponydentist said:



			Ok...no more posts from me. 

I understand the pyschology involved but im obviously  not very good a trying to portray it in writing....so I appologise there. Im not defending Pat parelli or putting him on his crucifixtion pedistal (and the use of the Captital H in the word him was purely a typo error)......im just explaining that I dont see this particular methodology which I have seen used several times by several leading horsemen and women to great effect with many troubled horses as abuse. What i have learned fom them more than anything else was to open my mind to as many things as possible......it was the turning point for me.

This whole incident will certainly be a learning curve for many.....in more ways than one. The horse which is what Im concerned about more than anything else here has come through this and has reached the other side without loosing any faith in human kind.

Continue with the witch hunt.
		
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Frankly I find your final comment unnecessary. Most of us have just been asking genuine questions in the pursuit of information so we can understand what went on with Catwalk and better understand Parelli. Kudos for coming on here and giving your point of view. I've read your replies with interest and will watch the video (should it ever appear) with your comments in mind.


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## eahotson (11 July 2010)

Says a lot about Robert Whitaker doesn't it??


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## Teddybully (11 July 2010)

Abay said:



			Funny how  Parelli have only posted session 2 and 3, but not session 1 on youtube
ETA sorry a shor clip from session 1
http://www.youtube.com/user/ParelliTube#p/u/0/8j25pS6ixWk

Click to expand...

Nice editing that isn't it!  Made sure they got there first didn't they.  Will be very interested to see the whole of session 1.


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## SVMel (11 July 2010)

ponydentist said:
			
		


			The use of the calmer (it wasnt a twitch as so many of you keep calling it)
		
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More than twenty years ago I was taught about the fitting and use of a commanche twitch.

It is fitted exactly as desribed on here and operated by the use of pressure on the free end of the rope.

'Calmer' is just a new name designed to be more acceptable to people.


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## Hollycat (11 July 2010)

I haven't seen what happened, only people who were there have.  Therefore none of us not there can really judge.

From what has been described many horses are treated a lot worse than this day in day out.  I may not say it was cruel but NO WAY would anyone ever treat a horse of mine like that.

This sort of technique would I imagine be called 'flooding'.  Where the animal is forced to confront his fears with no way out.  If I had for example a phobia of spiders I have 2 options.  The flooding technique where you can lock me in a room full of spiders until I realise after however many hours of terror that I am still alive as ponyboy would put it.  Or I can be desensitised involving gradually more and more exposure to spiders over a period of time. I know which option I would choose to get over my fear.

Playing devils advocate, perhaps every other method has failed for his horse and various other behaviour specialists have been consulted (though I doubt this).  If this method has worked for this horse then in the long run perhaps it was for the best so he is not traumatised every single day by being bridled using force. But any way you look at it the correct place was not in public view making the proceedure even more scarey and traumatic.


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## eahotson (11 July 2010)

Very well edited but our Pat has a very sour look on his face.They can't edit that out.


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## Shysmum (11 July 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8j25pS6ixWk

found this video of parelli with catwalk - looks very heavily edited ???  :confused  


:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyF2QqP29DU

As there are so many peeps watching this thread, I'll add the one of Linda and the one eyed horse, just for good measure. Sorry if you've seen it before. sm x


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## flash1 (11 July 2010)

Why so little of session one shown in the video if there was nothig wrong with it???
Also the horse still has gum line in in the session in the stable.
Keep it natural? indeed!


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## Shysmum (11 July 2010)

it's the only one I could find. It would be very interesting if the Whittakers were contacted to ask their thoughts on this ? I mean, there name is being dragged thru the mud too ?


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## Denise657 (11 July 2010)

I wanted to see the whole thing not about 5 seconds of friday.  Hopefully someone else will have filmed it or something if this is all they are going to publish.


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## Shysmum (11 July 2010)

we need to keep snooping around ebay - someone will post the whole thing, surely ?


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## brighteyes (11 July 2010)

Having caught up, I have no idea what to think.  I want to see the WHOLE thing.  From start to finish.  I'm completely confused.


Catwalk appears to be OK having his bridle on and off ears and face messed with at the end of the video.  He looks quite happy?

Unless he is doped (don't think so) something he strenuously objected to is now no longer troubling him in the slightest. Am I missing something?  

I admit I am totally torn, as I know ponydentist personally and would be VERY surprised if he didn't see right through any hocus pocus and snake oil, and he'd be the first to speak up about it. 

PP's showmanship isn't my cup of tea, frankly, and it often overshadows any talent he may have for producing results *BUT* Catwalk now appears happy to have his bridle on, and all fear and anxiety have gone from the dreadful arguments he has had to be involved in, presumably, daily...  He isn't afraid of PP either - unless that's not Catwalk. Did the end justify the means and were the means really as bad as have been described?

Why does *pd* appear to have seen a different scenario to *KS1*?  (Was it KS1?)  

It's a whole other can of worms as to whether it was irresponsible to undertake this as a demo, and certainly a welfare issue if, every day he is ridden, this horse has to endure the ten minutes plus 'bridling battle'.

Either he is bridled and ridden or not bridled and not ridden, and that is simply not an option here.

We can argue all day long about the rights and wrongs of the daily doings we have with our horses, from keeping them in stables to having them wear shoes and showjump (just picked a few things at random!) as many, if not most of us, have done.

My head hurts.  It would be nice to know Catwalk's is trouble free now.


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## brighteyes (11 July 2010)

*hollycat*

Just read your post and agree )" If this method has worked for this horse then in the long run perhaps it was for the best so he is not traumatised every single day by being bridled using force." 

In essence.


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## Cinnamontoast (11 July 2010)

shysmum said:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8j25pS6ixWk

found this video of parelli with catwalk - looks very heavily edited ???  :confused
		
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Hmm, if it was so great, why not show the actual session as opposed to the aftermath? 

Is he seriously sharing cheese-strings with him? Had I only known! I now have a ruddy fridge full of carrot sticks and cucumber-duh!


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## Weezy (11 July 2010)

Am about to watch the vid, so glad SOMETHING has been posted, but after reading PD's posts I will simply re-post what I said this morning before he did...

The thing is, if you were in, say Spain, and you saw a man tying a horse's leg up and laying it down there would be outrage. It would be considered *breaking a horse's spirit* and yes, demeaning it in many people's eyes. A horse is a noble creature, and seeing them trussed up and put to the ground does not sit well with people. Yes, I understand the ethos behind it but that doesn't mean that I have to like it.

Just because it is *Parelli* it suddenly becomes acceptable to use ropes to hoist a horse's body around, and therein lies the problem. Full explanations are not given because *if you want to know, buy the DVD/book/etc* and so the accusations, confusion and hatred continues.


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## Weezy (11 July 2010)

OK watched the vid posted - wow, great, 20 secs if that of a horse throwing his head up and down for session 1, not what I was expecting.  Love the fact it says *passive*, ha ha ha, whether you agree with Parelli or not, the first night's work was not passive.

I hate the fact that in the footage of session 2 Catwalk's eyes look very empty - maybe he always looks like that, but it made me sad.


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## ibot (11 July 2010)

i agree wheezy and did you see some of his body language hmmmmm


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## Lsrd1 (11 July 2010)

Pony Dentist:  "Totally accepted that Pat should have explained the rationale behind everything he did that night. Perhaps he's accepted that and perhaps if the video is made availabel......it will be narrated and not edited to reflect on that mistake."

Guess that's not how Parelli rolls, huh.

What was the euphemism you used for the gumline (comanche twitch)?  Calmer?  Well that's about as much baloney as the use of the word "natural".  

Quite frankly, I don't have a big problem with a truly dangerous horse being laid down.  That, however, would be the absolute last resort.  I would think that someone who purports himself to be such a great horseman would have quickly assessed that a 2 hour demonstration was not going to be the answer for this horse.  Parelli should have admitted that and could have, I'm quite sure, worked his "magic" on this horse over the course of several days - - which is what anyone with a bit of horse knowledge and compassion would have done.  What he should NOT have done was use these techniques in an effort to force the horse solely for the purpose of winning.  Yes, Parelli won, the horse lost in session 1.  

That the horse in session 2/3 allowed the bridle to be put on is great; but it could have been accomplished in something at least vaguely resembling what Parelli claims to want to accomplish.  

I also purchased an impossible to bridle mare.  It took me 2 weeks of slow and gentle work to get her to allow bridling with no fight whatsoever.  And believe me, I'm no horse trainer.  It doesn't really take a genius or a guru to accomplish.  

I've used a twitch on a few horses, but if I ever had it applied for more than about 10 minutes max, I'd hope someone would hit me with a 2 x 4.  The times I've used a twitch were in emergency-type situations where we just had to get the job done.  And afterwards, I made sure to work with the horse so that twitching was not necessary again.  Once again, not in any way, shape, manner or form a horse trainer, just a horse owner and someone who is willing to take a little time and patience with animals.


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## ruscara (11 July 2010)

ibot said:



			i agree wheezy and did you see some of his body language hmmmmm 

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I don't usually pass comment, because I don't consider myself knowledgeable enough to criticise or otherwise these techniques.
However, I will break my usual reticence to say that in the video provided I thought that Pat Parelli looked like an arrogant arse with little regard for the sensitivities of the horse he was 'working' with.


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## LucyPriory (11 July 2010)

Wow - although the video is obviously heavily edited I still think it makes the whole lot look a shambles.

Just as one example - see 1 min 38 seconds.  Since when did it become acceptable to run a thin rope through a horse's mouth?  That is very aggressive.

Then what kind of person leaves a horse wandering around with a long loose rope hanging from its neck and the end trailing between its hind legs? 1 min 16+

And PonyDentist - so in your world its ok to make something think it is about to die just so you can get what you want? How would you like that done to you - or your wife?  Children (if you have any).  In my world that is abuse plain and simple.


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## eahotson (11 July 2010)

In my understanding of horses they are prey animals.Immobilizing them on the ground must be their worst nightmare come true.I don't think it leads to trust just to a great sense of hopelessness.This licking and chewing.IMHO its not a sign that the horse is thinking things over.Its a self comforting gesture like sucking your thumb (or a cigarette!!).I had a horse who had a mild (thank God) dose of colic.He did a lot of that licking and chewing while he was in pain.All of this could have been accomplished with patience and time not like that.It would have meant Robert not being able to jump the horse for a couple of weeks though.The police are my role models for getting horses to accept very frightening situations calmly.They take a long time doing this.


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## Weezy (11 July 2010)

LucyPriory said:



			Wow - although the video is obviously heavily edited I still think it makes the whole lot look a shambles.

Just as one example - see 1 min 38 seconds.  Since when did it become acceptable to run a thin rope through a horse's mouth?  That is very aggressive.

Then what kind of person leaves a horse wandering around with a long loose rope hanging from its neck and the end trailing between its hind legs? 1 min 16+

And PonyDentist - so in your world its ok to make something think it is about to die just so you can get what you want? How would you like that done to you - or your wife?  Children (if you have any).  In my world that is abuse plain and simple.
		
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Ok, I haven't seen this footage - please can you re-link it!


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## Hollycat (11 July 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/user/ParelliT.../0/8j25pS6ixWk


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## Hollycat (11 July 2010)

He looks like such a sweet, decent little horse. He doesn't deserve to be forced like this   Its all very well showing him accepting the bridle with a thin bit of rope in his mouth (used as the lip twitch I guess) but I wonder what he will be like down the line when they try to handle him with no twitch - or how easily they are going to keep getting the twitch on in future


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## j1ffy (11 July 2010)

Weezy said:



			Ok, I haven't seen this footage - please can you re-link it!
		
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Weezy - it's in the original link but I hadn't spotted it first time around.  When he's "sharing lunch" the horse has a knot of rope around his neck and a longer rope trailing between his legs.  Then in "session 3" when the groom is pulling the headpiece over the horse's ears and back, there's no bit on the bridle, just a thin piece of rope (presumably so the bit isn't pulling on his mouth..?).

To me, it seems very odd (regardless of what's been posted on here) that they only show a short piece of footage from the Friday of PP rubbing the horse's head and then they're not in the main arena for the remainder.  In the Saturday footage, Catwalk looks very tired and / or broken in spirit.  I've not seen a competition horse look like that unless exhausted, of course I don't know the horse so maybe it's his usual demeanour.

Also, it annoyed me how PP made it look like the horse wanted to be with him in session 2, but he's actually standing on the rope so the horse can't walk away!


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## digitalangel (11 July 2010)

around 1 minute in, its kind of funny when PP tries to 'pose' for th cameras with the horse.

Weezy - when hes sharing lunch, the rope is between the horses back legs. 

Shame to see the rope still in while robert is taking the bridle on/off. 

Also PP and its followers freak me out. Simply saying things like

"Maybe Pats biggest mistake was asuming that the audience understood more than they did about horses." (ponydentist)

its just awfully rude and patronising, doncha think?

I kind of feel its fake. Anyone can use force to make a horse submit, and i fail to see how Parelli is any different.


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## DragonSlayer (11 July 2010)

I think now the fuse has been lit on the Parelli Universe.....

More and more people will sit up and take notice of 'things not quite right'....and it can't be too long before the relevant authorities take notice, and the 'demonstrations' begin to eventually fizzle out....won't look good for these big shows if people don't want to go to see them....


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## EskvalleyStud (11 July 2010)

from what I have read here and on horsegossip and the awful video I saw on youtube with one eyed horse being hit with rope to train him/her, its barbaric treatment, how can AHY horse lover JUSTIFY that kind of 'treatment'

hobbling a horse and restraining him, its pure domination and aggression - how they call it 'passive' beats me, if I was a fan and follower that alone would be enough to change my mind, why are so many followers on their facebook page sticking up for this awful treatment - brainwashed???


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## Munchkin (11 July 2010)

Well well well, I've just watched the video.  There "we have nothing to worry about" comment seems a whole lot like bullsh*t now, doesn't it? They are afraid to show more than 12 seconds of the 3 hour "display" from Friday night.

I wonder what the Parellists defense is this time? 

Somebody must have posted their own footage from Friday on YouTube. I highly suspect it has been removed.


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## Bojangles (11 July 2010)

I wonder also with the lack of face expresser from the horse that he's switch off from it all?? Like well I'll might of well give in otherwise my leg going to be tied up again equal pain??? Poor boy indeed!!

How can people say it's not abuse???? They need their eye's testd!!! Useing rope's to give the horse no other choice  to get a horse to give to you happed year's ago and that's where it should stay!!!


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## Hedgewitch13 (11 July 2010)

I really hope that happens Dragonslayer but I have my doubts. Sadly the gruesome twosome have so many brainwashed followers it will always be a money spinner for big events. As I've said before it's the horses I really feel for :-(

But at least there is a bit of a backlash in the states, check out fugly horse of the day's site (will need to search for the Parelli posts) - Cathy is very anti the Parellis and so are a most of her followers for similar reasons stated on here. A start I guess!


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## Paint it Lucky (11 July 2010)

Apologies if I'm repeating what anyone's already said here.  I've been following this thread with great interest and trying to stay open minded, I didn't see the demo so can only rely on what people on here say.  I have studied horse psychology in a lot of detail and yes the method Pat Parelli used does sound to be a from of flooding/learned helplessness.  Basically by tying up the horse's leg he removed it's ability to flee, and once horses loose this ability (as someone else said (bear in mind horses are prey animals and rely on flight as a means of survival)), they basically give up fighting and think they are going to die.  

It is a very extreme method that if pushed through (as this sounds like it was), will either work and the horse will appear cured (note the use of the word 'appear'), or will fail dramatically, making the horse far worse than it ever was originally and thus far harder to ever cure (as can happen when inexperienced people try to use such extreme techniques without really knowing what they are doing/when to ease off/reward etc).

I don't agree with flooding, would never use it and would never wish to see it used, I accept that some people do use it and use it successfully but this does not mean I consider it acceptable, it is a very machavellian way of thinking in my oppinion.  Patience and passive persistence (oh the irony!) I believe are far better methods.  Like many people on here have said if you just take your time, even if it means weeks of steady calm work with a horse so long as you do it correctly this is a far better way of gaining the horses long term trust and overcoming it's problems than just blatently forcing them to give in via an uncomfortable situation/battle of wills.

I can't remember the exact details but I remember being shocked at college when learning of a method (Andrew Maclean, an Australia told us about it if anyone has anymore info?)where horses that had a phobia were put into a closed stall (except a space for them to put their head out in order to breathe/see etc), that was then filled with grain right up to the horses head, so that the horse literaly couldn't move at all (thus flight response removed).  Then it was subjected to whatever it was scared off (eg. clipping) and because it couldn't get away it had to learn to accept it.  Probably haven't explained that very well but this Parelli demonstration reminds me alot of that.


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## savvylover112 (11 July 2010)

OK people of the horse and hound forum I have not been on here in a couple of years I don't think and I didn't even remember I was part of this forum woops. 

Well I have to say that I myself do Parelli with my horses. I also have to say I have not seen the video footage and wasn't there myself and am not here to defend the methods of Parelli because these are not normal methods of Parelli natural horsemanship. First of all I would like to say that natural horsemanship of any kind does not mean it's gentle natural does not equal gentle. Horses are not gentle with each other but they are natural to each other. I would also like to ask yourself to rethink your meaning of cruelty to horses. Alot of people don't find the likes of rolkur, crank nosebands, tie downs, etc. to be cruelty and it goes on without an uproar. Alot of people all over the world use ideas such as hobbling, and tying up of legs on horses but they are not as well publicised and not seen. These things are not cruelty to twitch a horse while it is being shod is not considered cruelty so why should it be considered cruel to twitch a horse for the purpose Pat did? Again I am not defending Pat but am asking you to think about what you yourself consider cruel. I for one think that Pat chose the wrong horse for the demonstration in the wrong place. If Catwalk needed help with bridling and Robert knew it was such a problem then the horse should not have been used in such an extreme place where results would have to be seen there and then because that is what an audience tends to demand. Catwalk appeared to be an extreme horse and extreme methods where put in place for an extreme horse. 

Another thing I would like people to consider is the fact of how different stallions are handled by everyone than mares and geldings. They are kept in confinement away from most horses and will try to defend their territory when they feel threatened and they tend to feel threatened a lot of the time. All stallions can appear to be the same as all horses but they are dominant and extreme. Pat needed to be the dominant figure in the equation and it appears he had to be extreme in asserting his dominance. 

Again if I appear to have been defending what Pat did I was not. I did not see it but I have heard what has happened from people who do not follow Parelli and people who do follow Parelli so I have heard both sides of the story and both sides seem to say nearly the same things just have different opinions on why it happened and what the effects where on what happened. If you read this I hope you do not put it off as some Parelli Cult person just defending what they do I feel no need to defend Pat and Linda because I am not them or their friends. I hope you consider what I have asked you to consider and you may or may not see things in a different light or you may still keep your opinion that is up to you.

Shauna


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## Sparkles (11 July 2010)

Alot of people don't find the likes of rolkur, crank nosebands, tie downs, etc. to be cruelty and it goes on without an uproar.
		
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I'm trying not commenting on the subject at hand anymore, as I'm just not interested anymore tbh. But. The above things quoted DO cause uproar within the industry, Rollkur and tie downs especially! Rollkur has specific rulings on it now from all the bad press it got.

No one is slating these methods that were done as such, BUT, are debating the fact that was was carried out goes against EVERYTHING he stands for on this particular issue [Re, go back to his own quote, which you probably know anyway] and the fact of labelling it a special 'way' which is passive and classing it under 'natural' horsemanship. 

If you want to advocate and use hobbling/twitching/tying etc, go ahead, but NOT under a 'passive' name tag in the public eye!

There lies the main issue people are getting trying to get their heads around to 'understand' what they're not understanding aboutit, apparantly.


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## Paint it Lucky (11 July 2010)

Don't know if anyone if familiar with the term 'conditioned suppression' (look up Heather Simpson's work) but basically when a horse (or indeed human or any animal) is continually subjected to forcefull methods that it is made to give into (eg, harsh training, continual punishment etc), the horse eventually gives up fighting and just does whatever it is told.  It will either go into a state of hyper-vigilance, always trying to work out what the human wants in order to avoid further mistreatment (and under constant stress as a result).  Or will simply stop offering any new behaviours, becoming dull and listless (how many of us have seen this in old riding school horses, continually pulled around, kicked, yanked etc for no clear reason (other than the rider doesn't know what they're doing) and so the horse simply shuts off as a survival mechanism.  Both these states are obviously bad for the horses health, the horses are far more prone to colic, stress related illness etc.  Often the horses may appear fine on the outside, they never behave naughtily, wildly etc, but really they are not fine at all.


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## Elsbells (11 July 2010)

Bramley said:



			We confronted Pat and Robert . I tried to get the officials to stop it. The gum line was cutting the horses lip and gums causing a wound. Pat tied up it's front leg  and also tied it's head to the front leg with Linda hauling on the rope. That horse showed no sign at any point of agression and just took the pain. The vet examined the horse the next day and found a wound under it's lip. He stopped Catwalk being used again. Thank god. I fely phisically sick and was shaking from top to bottom. To quote Roberts words when i asked him why he let his horse be tortured he said that was ok by him! Pat is six foot two and spent two hours hauling on that gumline. So much for love language and leadership. I have never seen anything so viscious in my life.  Pat did say he was sorry and what could he do to make it right with me. I said never do this again to a horse. Lets hope he never does.
		
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My friend and I were there with this lady, who I might add was rightly incenced! All that she has described about the encounter is true. Also when PP was asked by my friend, J"ust why did you feel the need to do that?" Pat replied with a grin, "For the good of the horse......for the good of the horse".


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## PurplePickle (11 July 2010)

do we have a video linky? have just gone through 37 pages but still cant find one, sorry Im a bit boz eyed.


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## Weezy (11 July 2010)

Shauna, I have handled many, many stallions, and it is not my view that they have to be treated *differently* at all - that is man made IMO.


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## Paint it Lucky (11 July 2010)

Summerleft here's the only video that's been posted so far, not much of the first night is shown!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8j25pS6ixWk


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## LucyPriory (11 July 2010)

er no - I don't think Rolkur etc are accepted (by anyone other than a bully).


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## Hollycat (11 July 2010)

I agree with AllySmalice that this sort of technique is pretty barbaric.  If it was the only option avaliable and would save the horse a lot of ongoing distress then that is one matter, but it is crude and nasty and in my mind a last resort. There are much much kinder ways of tackleing this problem as so many others have pointed out, and I am surprised that these have not previously been tried/have not worked. As I said, maybe this was a last resort but I very much doubt it.  I like to give the benefit of the doubt when I haven't seen something for myself, but my gut instinct tells me that this is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG.  Sorry if I keep posting similar things but for some reason this has really got to me 

I have worked in animal welfare and I don't consider this 'cruel' as such.  Well I do and I don't.  It is to me personally and In an ideal world, yes it shouldn't be allowed. But we need some perspective.  The type of stuff going on every day to many animals is far, far worse than this and much as this distresses me, I would rather see the extreme cruelty cases dealt with (such as herbivores starved to such an extent they were eating their own dead).


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## PurplePickle (11 July 2010)

AllySmalice said:



			Summerleft here's the only video that's been posted so far, not much of the first night is shown!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8j25pS6ixWk

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thank you, funny that non of the first night is show isnt it


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## PapaFrita (11 July 2010)

savvylover112 said:



			I would also like to ask yourself to rethink your meaning of cruelty to horses. Alot of people don't find the likes of rolkur, crank nosebands, tie downs, etc. to be cruelty and it goes on without an uproar.  Alot of people all over the world use ideas such as hobbling, and tying up of legs on horses but they are not as well publicised and not seen. These things are not cruelty to twitch a horse while it is being shod is not considered cruelty so why should it be considered cruel to twitch a horse for the purpose Pat did?
		
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That's your justification for PP's methods? Some people are OK with rollkur etc, so everyone should be OK with Parelli? What tosh. And there is plenty or uproar. I don't use any of the above, does that make me better qualified to criticise Parelli?
And whilst we're on the theme of what is 'natural'. Horses like to bite and kick each other, so why is it wrong to smack a horse if he bites me? I have to analyse why he bit me and treat the cause... right? How is that natural? It's not what would happen in the wild; he would be disciplined instantly.
I also dislike that many of the advocates of Parelli believe it is the ONLY humane way to treat horses; there are many videos on YouTube to that effect. SO, if PP twitches a horse, then that's fine, but if anyone else twitches a horse then that's cruel... what's that all about?


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## PapaFrita (11 July 2010)

Weezy said:



			Shauna, I have handled many, many stallions, and it is not my view that they have to be treated *differently* at all - that is man made IMO.
		
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Well, if leading a stallion you might not want to hang around in front of a mare's stable... 
You are quite right though; all the stallys in Argentina were treated much as any other horse was... with the above proviso


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## Paint it Lucky (11 July 2010)

With regards this being a last resort, I think Robert had only had the stallion with him for six weeks, so not really long enough to try many other methods.  Call me a cynic but I think Robert though PP would be able to fix it so didn't really try much, just booked Catwalk for this demo, probably not expecting to have happen what did (prehaps thinking PP would play afew games with catwalk and then he'd be cured?) and the Parelli's obviously thought being associated with a top UK show jumper was too good a business oppurtunity to miss so jumped at the chance to get involved.  

From what's been said I don't think any real attempt was made to 'fix' Catwalk prior to this demo, I know that on most comp yars I've been to the horses are just forced if they have a problem such as this (As Robert basically said), as they 'don't have time' to 'faff around' trying to desensitise the horse etc, they just want to get on with riding and competing it.

So I think they just jumped straight to the most extreme method before trying anything else.  Prehaps because it would be more interesting (!) for the crowd to watch and obviously gets resutls/reactions quicker then spending hours/weeks gradually densisitising the horse.


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## Salcey (11 July 2010)

Weezy said:



			Shauna, I have handled many, many stallions, and it is not my view that they have to be treated *differently* at all - that is man made IMO.
		
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Thats my experience too!


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## savvylover112 (11 July 2010)

I know that rolkur has had a ban but only in the warm up ring that does not mean it doesn't go on and isn't still in practise and being tolerated not liked but tolerated. 

I don't think stallions should be treated in a different way but the way they are treated in this day and age by being separated and kept away from other horses is not natural to them and has changed the way they behave towards any horse or human. We do not know if Catwalk has been treated in this way but it is the way *most* stallions are treated today. 

I do not believe Pat went against his principles in doing this I just believe that he used a completely extreme but effective phase four on this horse because this was an extreme horse who was effective at asserting his dominance towards people. A human must be the dominant leader in the herd or be dominated. If the human is dominated they will be walked all over. Most stallions are more dominant that other horses and so need a person that can become more dominant still. Pat needed to be the leader in the situation and while I do not agree with everything that appears to have happened at the FOTH Robert Whitaker the owner of the horse seems ok with it. He is sending the horse to James Roberts foundation station for more work after this. It shows he puts trust in the program and the results it will give. 

I understand the program but am not far enough into it to understand everything that was done in this session. I know others who are level 4 who completely understand why everything was done during the session on Friday. I believe a lot of people don't understand anything about the program but saying they don't understand anything about horses is insulting and untrue so I am not saying people here don't know about horses just don't know about horses and I would like it not making you do it but would like it if people would put meaning now into "Don't knock it till you try it" not saying try what Pat did to Catwalk but don't knock what Pat did until you try the program or at least try to understand the meaning of the program and it might help you see why Pat did what he did I myself am still looking for answers to that.

Shauna


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## Weezy (11 July 2010)

savvylover112 said:



			I understand the program but am not far enough into it to understand everything that was done in this session. I know others who are level 4 who completely understand why everything was done during the session on Friday. I believe a lot of people don't understand anything about the program but saying they don't understand anything about horses is insulting and untrue so I am not saying people here don't know about horses just don't know about horses and I would like it not making you do it but would like it if people would put meaning now into "Don't knock it till you try it" not saying try what Pat did to Catwalk but don't knock what Pat did until you try the program or at least try to understand the meaning of the program and it might help you see why Pat did what he did I myself am still looking for answers to that.

Shauna
		
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You see Shauna, this is the thing that really, REALLY gets my goat.  "Don't knock it till you try it" - well yes, sure, but for ANYONE to try it they have to part with a LOT of money.  It is utterly wrong to have a public demo and not explain what and why you are doing what you are doing, instead leaving it in the realms of mystery unless you subscribe time and money into a corporate business.

You are saying that you don't understand why he did what he did but you blindingly agree with it - can you see where people have a problem with that?


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## Sparkles (11 July 2010)

savvylover112 said:



			I do not believe Pat went against his principles in doing this I just believe that he used a completely extreme but effective phase four on this horse because this was an extreme horse who was effective at asserting his dominance towards people.
		
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EAR SHY? By Pat Parelli
Can you touch your husband's ears? What about your best friend's, your child's or your mother's? 
If you couldn't then there's probably something wrong with the relationship! This is how I want you to think of your horse's so-called 'problem'. If he doesn't like his ears to be touched its because deep down inside, he does not trust you. There is a flaw in your relationship. 
When I talk about the solution here I am going to give you the natural approach, the one that consider's the horse's point of view. To effect a 'cure' you have to gain his trust and permission. *The normal way is often to force the horse to accept it, twitch him, tie him, throw him&#8230;. In my mind (and in the horse's I'm sure) this is akin to rape and I won't use it. *
So to do it with the horse's permission may seem to take a little time, technique and knowledge, but if you do it right you won't have to do it over,




*That's what people are not happy about*.


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## digitalangel (11 July 2010)

savvylover112 said:



			I understand the program but am not far enough into it to understand everything that was done in this session. I know others who are level 4 who completely understand why everything was done during the session on Friday. I believe a lot of people don't understand anything about the program but saying they don't understand anything about horses is insulting and untrue so I am not saying people here don't know about horses just don't know about horses and I would like it not making you do it but would like it if people would put meaning now into "Don't knock it till you try it" not saying try what Pat did to Catwalk but don't knock what Pat did until you try the program or at least try to understand the meaning of the program and it might help you see why Pat did what he did I myself am still looking for answers to that.

Shauna
		
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So do realise that youre contradicting yourself here? 

So youre saying we must study to level 4 to understand what PP did?

i can tell you for nuthin!

PP used mechanical force to make the horse submit. end of.


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## Munchkin (11 July 2010)

Binky01 said:



			EAR SHY? By Pat Parelli
Can you touch your husband's ears? What about your best friend's, your child's or your mother's? 
If you couldn't then there's probably something wrong with the relationship! This is how I want you to think of your horse's so-called 'problem'. If he doesn't like his ears to be touched its because deep down inside, he does not trust you. There is a flaw in your relationship. 
When I talk about the solution here I am going to give you the natural approach, the one that consider's the horse's point of view. To effect a 'cure' you have to gain his trust and permission. *The normal way is often to force the horse to accept it, twitch him, tie him, throw him. In my mind (and in the horse's I'm sure) this is akin to rape and I won't use it. *
So to do it with the horse's permission may seem to take a little time, technique and knowledge, but if you do it right you won't have to do it over,




*That's what people are not happy about*.
		
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Absolutely.


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## savvylover112 (11 July 2010)

I do know that it does sound contradictory and again I am not defending Pat Parelli god if I did that it would be a battle and I would not be a light hearted person anymore. 

Pat should have explained EVERYTHING that was going on and if he couldn't because he was concentrating on the horse he should have had Linda or one of the higher level instructors do it. I do feel it is a lot of money to just try it and one way of just trying it is not to go out and buy everything but look for someone in your area that you know does Parelli and ask to have a loan of their DVD material or equipment. Parelli followers have been growing in the UK until now. 

To this quote "So to do it with the horse's permission may seem to take a little time, technique and knowledge, but if you do it right you won't have to do it over," obviously Pat felt he did it right because he did not have to do all of this for over 3 hours again. 

And no I do not think you should have to study to level 4 to understand what he did because I feel he should have explained everything at the time of it happening. He should have an explanation out now and he should explain truthfully to everyone why this was done to this horse.


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## Tinypony (11 July 2010)

Don't knock it 'till you try it".  I did.  I tried it.  I tried it all the way into level 3 on the ground (much slower ridden with the horse I had).  I started to question some of the things I was seeing and hearing (like the flawed take on certain aspects of equine behaviour for example).  Against the advice from the man himself I started to go and look at other trainers.  I learnt.  I learnt that when I was in Parelli I was being taught to use a level of force that other trainers never "needed".  I learnt that most of the horses I was told were dominant were operating from a base of fear.  I learnt to think for myself and do my own research and guess what?  I'm not a Parelli student any more.  But don't accuse me of not understanding what is going on when something like this is inflicted on a horse.  I know what is going on, and I even know the Parelli-logic for doing it.  The flawed logic that is.
I am not anti-Parelli though, I think there are aspects of it that are good, but sadly, especially of late, the bad seems to be outweighing the good.


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## Tinypony (11 July 2010)

I want to add something.  I think that talk of Rolkur, abuse and cruelty and neglect are irrelevant to the discussion.  The fact that other people do things that are arguably worse than Pat did in this long 3 hours doesn't make his actions any better (or any worse).


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## Abracadabjar (11 July 2010)

You tell me what part of this is natural!!!!!
Truly vile!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyF2QqP29DU


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## kirstyl (11 July 2010)

Abracadabjar said:



			You tell me what part of this is natural!!!!!
Truly vile!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyF2QqP29DU

Click to expand...

This video is horrific. What exactly does she want the horse to do? Because it doesn't have a clue and by the looks of it neither does she


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## fburton (11 July 2010)

savvylover112 said:



			Another thing I would like people to consider is the fact of how different stallions are handled by everyone than mares and geldings. They are kept in confinement away from most horses and will try to defend their territory when they feel threatened and they tend to feel threatened a lot of the time.
		
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Believe me, not all stallions are kept like that or behave like that. I've known several laid back, gentlemanly, sensible and well-socialized stallions that didn't show any indication of 'feeling threatened a lot of the time'. However, if you treat a stallion like a criminal he may well behave like one!




			All stallions can appear to be the same as all horses but they are dominant and extreme.
		
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With respect, that is an overly simplistic caricature of what stallions are like. Many, many stallions are perfectly manageable and a pleasure to handle. Of course, playing dominance games and getting extreme with them yourself is quite likely to lead to problems!




			Pat needed to be the dominant figure in the equation and it appears he had to be extreme in asserting his dominance.
		
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That's probably where he's going wrong then. I simply cannot understand this obsession with dominance and 'being alpha' that Parelli folk appear to have.


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## minkara (11 July 2010)

haven't read all 39(!) pages, BUT just watched the video, stallion DEFINITELY doped in the first bit, after friday night, labelled Sat, 2nd session, look at glazed eyes, dropped head,and dangly bits(!) as he walks to the right of the pic. bit after that , also labelled sat 2nd session, the horse is completely different , bright , alert and chewing on the bit, very stalliony in stature. very odd ---


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## TS_ (11 July 2010)

I know it was said quite a few pages ago now but it has taken me ages to catch up to the end of thread as it keeps growing, however I just wanted to bring back up something that PD mentioned. About the reasoning behind the horses leg being held/tied up. To my understanding PD is claiming the reasoning behind this is that the horse thinks it's going to die, but then when it doesn't die and it lets pat touch it or whatever it learning it's ok. So to my understanding PD is saying the the horse has to feel it'll die to get it to do what he wants and that's ok. But i'm failing to understand the reasoning behind this, if that is indeed the reason pat did it. For example if I walked into a bank and held a gun to someones head to make them think they're going to die and demand they give me money, when they then comply I take the death threat away and it's all ok? I know that's a little over the top but to me that's what it seemed like PD was implying so I was wondering if I was the only one who didn't understand this? As I don't see how instilling the fear of death in an animal as kind horsemanship which seems to be what Parelli is supposedly about.
I've never liked Parelli, in the beginning I looked into it and wanted/tried to understand it a little but after I saw some of the things they do I was completely put off. And what was done to catwalk sounds awful but I guess now that the result seems to have been achieved session one will be brushed under the carpet and pat will be hailed for making such a big change.


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## toffeesmarty (11 July 2010)

Binky01 said:



			EAR SHY? By Pat Parelli
Can you touch your husband's ears? What about your best friend's, your child's or your mother's? 
If you couldn't then there's probably something wrong with the relationship! This is how I want you to think of your horse's so-called 'problem'. If he doesn't like his ears to be touched its because deep down inside, he does not trust you. There is a flaw in your relationship. 
When I talk about the solution here I am going to give you the natural approach, the one that consider's the horse's point of view. To effect a 'cure' you have to gain his trust and permission. *The normal way is often to force the horse to accept it, twitch him, tie him, throw him. In my mind (and in the horse's I'm sure) this is akin to rape and I won't use it. *

This is tosh. I have seven horses. In the summer 3 of them are unhappy for me to touch their ears. This has nothing to do with our 'relationship' it has however, everything to do with the flies and midges which cause them to shake their heads and move away from me.
		
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## QUICKFIRE (11 July 2010)

shysmum said:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8j25pS6ixWk

found this video of parelli with catwalk - looks very heavily edited ???  :confused  


:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyF2QqP29DU

As there are so many peeps watching this thread, I'll add the one of Linda and the one eyed horse, just for good measure. Sorry if you've seen it before. sm x
		
Click to expand...

 

This is the first time I have seen the video of LP with this horse, who I believe was blind in one eye, and after watching it I don't think I would like to see what PP got upto with Catwalk, but I know for sure if anybody did anything like that to my horse I would be knocking them out.  I have owned horses for well over 40 yrs and have had many in that time and am very proud of each and every one of them, treat them in the fashion you would like to be treated and they will serve you well.


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## Weeamigo (11 July 2010)

I have not read all of the threds, but I know first hand that Parelli sucks.

I have a lovely but cheeky NF pony that I was happy to play the 7 games with, until I have a lesson with a Parelli instructor.

She belted my pony so hard with the carrot stick that I had tears on my eyes and my mouth let rip at her.

Needless to say I left with a very angy self for letting anyone touch my pony, I was so mad I could have punched her, I will NEVER again use his methods.  

So I can only imagine what this poor horse has suffered at his hand!


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## Munchkin (11 July 2010)

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=136894269668892&ref=ts

Over 400 members since yesterday, seems we're not alone.


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## Ravenwood (11 July 2010)

Ponydentist:




			It is human supremacy over animals....its why we kep horses and other animals....it makes us feel better if we do.
		
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I think this very sentence, just shows us the very fundamental difference in our thinking towards animals and I can now slowly start to understand your desire for dominance and alpha status.

It also shows that our most basic outlook on animal ownership is poles apart.

To that end there is no way we are going to agree on methods of training if we think of our animals in such a different way from the very beginning.

I most definitely do not keep animals for the reason you state.


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## baymareb (11 July 2010)

I have read this entire thread with interest and joined the forum so I could comment.  A couple of posters have remarked upon the cultural differences between horsemanship in the US and the UK, and how Parelli and NH techniques have been put forward as a way to counter the "wild west" tactics often used here.

That is true to a certain extent.  However, I am a product of the eastern United States where for many generations we have handled horses quite differently.  As a New Englander, my background is in gentling rather than breaking horses.  We tend to do things like handle foals from birth, do a great deal of groundwork and patient handling, and we don't tend to ride our horses before they are 3 or 4 years old (my preference is 4).

As such, I was truly mystified when this whole concept of "natural horsemanship" became popular because much of it sounded like the basic common-sense techniques I and my associates have always used.  Slick packaging and marketing has given it a glossy veneer and allowed some people to make a lot of money selling something that they certainly did not invent.

To that end, I think my eastern US background is more akin to that of the UK and I share the general disgust with this whole incident.  As so many have said, if the concern was truly for the horse, this "training" would not have taken place in a public arena.


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## JLav (11 July 2010)

savvylover112 said:



			I don't think stallions should be treated in a different way but the way they are treated in this day and age by being separated and kept away from other horses is not natural to them and has changed the way they behave towards any horse or human. We do not know if Catwalk has been treated in this way but it is the way *most* stallions are treated today. 


Shauna
		
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What on earth gives you the idea that 'most' stallions are kept as you describe?

Most of the stallions I know these days are kept on busy competition yards with all the other horses. They are worked every day with the other horses, hack out with other horses, travel to shows on lorries with other horses, are stabled in temporary stables with loads of other horses etc etc.

Apart from some sensible precautions around mares all the ones I know are treated pretty much the same as any other horse and are not handled or treated any differently.


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## misterjinglejay (11 July 2010)

Not sure if this link will work - don't often 'do' clever comutery things!
http://www.facebook.com/ParelliNaturalHorseTraining?ref=ts#!/posted.php?id=2238095556.

Scroll down and read the comments by Parellians esp the ones about good vs evil and the bible quotes.


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## misterjinglejay (11 July 2010)

Sorry, I don't think it works, so I'll c&p them here (hope thats legal!).
Barbara Vasquez
Please, please, please have the entire 3 days on a Savvy club DVD or even on a separate DVD set. I, for one, would make sure I purchased it just so I would have it to show to those critics and skeptics when they start complaining about how Pat did this or that. I was NOT there in the UK but years ago, I WAS one of those critics and skeptics about ... See morethe Parelli method because I didn't know the whole situation and had watched only a snippet of a show of Pat working with (what I NOW know to be an Extreme Right Brained horse), teaching it the YoYo game. I have since "seen the light" (in 2004) and become a true follower of Parelli Natural Horsemanship. There is NOTHING more beautiful than watching Pat with Casper and Magic and Linda with Remmer. The love, language and leadership shown between human and horse is phenomenal. How anyone could ever say that Pat "tortured" ANY horse is beyond comprehension. If he truly "tortured" that horse (or any horse for that matter), do you REALLY think that the HSUS would have partnered up with him? You know, there are those out there that no matter how much you PROVE to them that the Parelli method works, they will still complain and spread lies. Why?? Who knows? Where there is good, there is always evil. Some people are just plain evil. Not only the way they spread lies (about something they don't understand and don't want to understand) but in every facet of their lives. I pray that God will help them "see the light" and until that happens, we Parellians just need to continue on Parellianing (new word folks) and lead by our examples. "A picture's worth a thousand words". Let's help Pat and Linda by keeping on, keeping on and loving our horses the way God intended for us to love 'em. They will appreciate it and we will have happy hearts. Be Safe, Be Smart, Be Savvy my friends and go hug your horse. 

And

Bill Standish
As I read over the posts here I want to put things in even a bigger context. As wonderful and useful as PNH is for horses and their owners in regards to relationship, natural horsemanship is not all about the Parellis, though they are very important. There is a more important relationship that needs to be brought into focus in order to assist us ... See morein dealing with the conflict that has been evident in this thread. One person mentioned the presence of evil in the world as opposed to good; truth be told, everyone, even 'good' people, have a propensity to evil because we all have a sin nature deep within us.
The Bible teaches us that 'the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked! Who can know it?...' Jeremiah 17:9 The Lord Jesus Christ, who created humans and horses, and every other creature, has always been aware of the relational issues between humans, since they stem from the breakdown of our relationship with Him when sin entered the world. Yet, He was and is prepared with a resolution...HIMSELF. Natural horsemanship reveals the importance of respect in the restoring the relationship between humans and horses; this is a reflection on the need for restoration humans need to have with our Creator. Man's independance from God, due to relational breakdown needs correction; God does not need to be restored to us since He has not sinned, and indeed cannot sin. We need to be restored to Him so that we can have a trust relationship with Him. Horses who cannot trust their owner will remain afraid and not free to enjoy a relationship with him/her. Similarily, we humans, when not restored to Christ, cannot enjoy a relationship with God, and we will not enjoy true freedom of grace in interpersonal relationships with other humans. When we have a trust relationship with Jesus, conflict will not disappear, but...BUT...we can be free to, as God's Word teaches, 'Be anxious for nothing, but by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your request be made known unto God; and the peace of God, that surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus." Philippians 4:9 Christ's relationship with individual members of humankind is the ultimate context. PNH has a place in the training of human hearts and horses, but lets not make it the ultimate thing in life. One day horsemanship may cease to exist, but the crucial question is "What will we do with Jesus Christ?", the One who created mankind and horses. Jesus Christ exists eternally, before He made the world, before He came as a babe almost 2,000 years ago and after He died on the cross...HE ROSE AGAIN! Indeed, be passionate about PNH, but lets not become hurtful; some may feel threatened by comments made...find your security in Christ, who knows fully the entire situation and cares for each one involved, loving us enough to yield to cruel injustice, lies, mockery, torture...giving Himself over to crucifixion on a cross, to raise Himself to life again...to offer the same to us...peace with God and the peace of God regardless of our earthly experiences. Now, this is the enlightenment we all need.

Gin and popcorn to all who've made it this far!


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## HappyHorses:) (11 July 2010)

Ermmm  . . .  ok . . .


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## JanetGeorge (11 July 2010)

savvylover112 said:



			Another thing I would like people to consider is the fact of how different stallions are handled by everyone than mares and geldings. They are kept in confinement away from most horses and will try to defend their territory when they feel threatened and they tend to feel threatened a lot of the time. All stallions can appear to be the same as all horses but they are dominant and extreme. Pat needed to be the dominant figure in the equation and it appears he had to be extreme in asserting his dominance.
		
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What a ridiculously sweeping statement - and it shows how little you know about how MANY people - including me - handle their stallions!  My stallions are stabled alongside geldings - they can all touch noses with their neighbours.  They are turned out daily in fields fenced with just two strands of electric tape, which have a very narrow corridor between them and the next field. They are ridden daily - often hacked out or ridden in the manege with other horses - and we don't feel any need to 'dominate' them!

'asserting dominance' - in reality, that's bullying, and very few stallions take to it kindly!  Sooner or later they will show you that you CAN'T 'dominate' them - but you CAN control them easily with TACT - and good horsemanship!!


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## Changes (12 July 2010)

@ misterjay - that's plain scary ..... makes the moonies look quite normal...... :-/


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## JanetGeorge (12 July 2010)

Binky01 said:



			EAR SHY? By Pat Parelli
Can you touch your husband's ears? What about your best friend's, your child's or your mother's? 
If you couldn't then there's probably something wrong with the relationship! This is how I want you to think of your horse's so-called 'problem'. If he doesn't like his ears to be touched its because deep down inside, he does not trust you. There is a flaw in your relationship. 
When I talk about the solution here I am going to give you the natural approach, the one that consider's the horse's point of view. To effect a 'cure' you have to gain his trust and permission. *The normal way is often to force the horse to accept it, twitch him, tie him, throw him. In my mind (and in the horse's I'm sure) this is akin to rape and I won't use it. *

Click to expand...

And this shows a fair bit of ignorance on PP's part- AND an attempt to 'blame' horse owners for something that may not be their 'fault'.  Aural plaque, for example, can make a horse's ears VERY sensitive (and painful!)

And many bridling problems are actually not ear problems - they are mouth problems - but they manifest when the headpiece is pulled up over the ears because that's when the bit - pulled higher in the mouth - causes the horse pain.

The first thing I'd do with a horse with bridling problems is to have its mouth checked out thoroughly - under sedation if necessary.  And while he was sedated I'd be having a very good look into his ears.  And then I'd be looking at the various parts of the bridling 'operation' - so I could form an opinion on which part upset him and why.  THEN -and only then - could I decide onthe right approach to overcomehis fears,and it would probably involve modifying the bridling procedure to make it easier and more acceptable to him.

But it seems PP goes with the 'do what I say, NOT what I do' approach!


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## Ravenwood (12 July 2010)

Re Misterjay's post and the religeous following...

I am just going to harp back to my last post (end of last page) because if Parelli people are taught that it is human supremacy to own an animal - how contradictory is that!

However, in all fairness, there is nothing wrong in being religeous (millions of people are!) and if they wish to bring their beliefs into animal ownership, I understand and surely this isn't restricted to Parelli followers.

But I still can't get over that quote!  .........  hang on, I'll copy it again!




			It is human supremacy over animals....its why we kep horses and other animals....it makes us feel better if we do
		
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## saturdaygirl (12 July 2010)

Surely a full video will surface soon...?

Thank you (finally) for a full explanation of laying a horse down with hobbles PonyDentist. Is this not a similar idea to 'breaking' a horse by breaking its spirit like the old style cowboy techniques? If it's all about dominance, and getting a horse to submit then why not just beat it? If you use an orange stick I'm sure plenty will believe it's kind and in the best interest of the horse...

An odd one, but for me the analogy that the horse thinks it is going to die, and then learns to accept things reminds me an awful lot of that scene in Fight Club where he hold a gun to a guys head, makes him believe he is going to die, and then tells him to go out the next day and achieve his dreams of being a vet, or he will come back and kill him... Not the relationship I'd like with my horse but each to their own....


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## CalllyH (12 July 2010)

Im skipping through some of the pages as its late and this thread is huge but just watched this http://www.youtube.com/user/ParelliTube#p/u/0/8j25pS6ixWk of catwalk 

look how much force Pat is using on him - the horses spirit has just dissapeared and look at the bit when he nearly kicks him in the head 

To me these too are animal abusers making a fast buck - can not bear it at all


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## Natch (12 July 2010)

AllySmalice said:



			Basically by tying up the horse's leg he removed it's ability to flee, and once horses loose this ability (as someone else said (bear in mind horses are prey animals and rely on flight as a means of survival)), they basically give up fighting and think they are going to die.  

It is a very extreme method that if pushed through (as this sounds like it was), will either work and the horse will appear cured (note the use of the word 'appear'), or will fail dramatically, making the horse far worse than it ever was originally and thus far harder to ever cure (as can happen when inexperienced people try to use such extreme techniques without really knowing what they are doing/when to ease off/reward etc).

I don't agree with flooding, would never use it and would never wish to see it used, I accept that some people do use it and use it successfully but this does not mean I consider it acceptable, it is a very machavellian way of thinking in my oppinion.  Patience and passive persistence (oh the irony!) I believe are far better methods.  Like many people on here have said if you just take your time, even if it means weeks of steady calm work with a horse so long as you do it correctly this is a far better way of gaining the horses long term trust and overcoming it's problems than just blatently forcing them to give in via an uncomfortable situation/battle of wills.

I can't remember the exact details but I remember being shocked at college when learning of a method (Andrew Maclean, an Australia told us about it if anyone has anymore info?)where horses that had a phobia were put into a closed stall (except a space for them to put their head out in order to breathe/see etc), that was then filled with grain right up to the horses head, so that the horse literaly couldn't move at all (thus flight response removed).  Then it was subjected to whatever it was scared off (eg. clipping) and because it couldn't get away it had to learn to accept it.  Probably haven't explained that very well but this Parelli demonstration reminds me alot of that.
		
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Andrew Maclean also said he thought this was an excellent practice. 

The rope over the horse's gum reportedly caused an injury bad enough for vets to say he couldn't be used the next day. Think about the space between your gum and lip - how many nerve endings are there. Imagine how much pain the horse was in when he was reacting fearfully: and imagine that going on for 3 hours.

If it were a twitch in the same way that a nose twitch is, surely there would be a video of the horse reacting in a sedated manner to the endorphins in the same manner a nose-twitched horse would? I'm no expert, but I think the gum twitch probably worked in the same way an ear twitch would - by causing the horse extreme pain, rather than sending him to sleep.

ETS oh, oh OH! have you seen the comment at the end of the video??? Keep it natural my arse!!!!!!!!!!


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## Denise657 (12 July 2010)

Can i just ask what is with all the whips and ropes hanging about in these parelli video's. The ropes look to be everywhere under everyones feet. When my long lead rope is a bit long im always worried my mare is going to step on it and worry herself. Also just saw that linda parelli video, i'd love to know what that poor horse was thinking. Someone pulled on my mares lead rope like linda did in the video and she tried to bite the woman (she was a baby at the time). Why can't they just stick to normal methods with no wacking the horse in the chest with some rope.  I don't have much horse experience, only owned one for 6 years now but i don't understand why you would do this when things can be achieved by other methods. I know i certainly wouldn't be happy if someone was dragging me about my the head and hitting my chest with a  rope for no apparent reason.


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## Shysmum (12 July 2010)

don't you think it is time both Parelli and Whittaker were alerted to this thread ? Anybody ???? If not, I'll happily do it. sm x


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## Munchkin (12 July 2010)

I believe RW is aware of it.


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## Shysmum (12 July 2010)

good


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## JanetGeorge (12 July 2010)

shysmum said:



			don't you think it is time both Parelli and Whittaker were alerted to this thread ? Anybody ???? If not, I'll happily do it. sm x
		
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Will RW care?  Anyone who could pack a highly strung stallion off to be used like that - and stand around and watch it - isn't a horseman in MY book!  And if it's true that he'd only had him a matter of weeks, that makes it FAR worse.  The poor chap had been given NO chance - hours of concentrated flooding might have turned him into almost a 'dope on a rope' by Saturday,but stallions have a way of remembering abuse - and repaying it in spades!


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## Kaylum (12 July 2010)

Back in the day I went to one of these clinics at the Yorkshire Riding Centre, you know you see its the latest thing so you are curious.  It was a few days but after day one we had had enough, submission, throwing ropes around making the horses shy, wasnt for me I am afraid.  

Funny also I saw a top BHS instructor take a whip to a horse when she thought nobody was looking, just because these people have a status does not make the things they do correct.


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## tongue~n~cheek (12 July 2010)

OMG, you guys are chatty.  I just got home and checked in, and whew that was alot to read.  Where to start.  lemme get my notes.
So many I couldn't "quote" anyone.

First, I know of no single horse, that has been made head shy with Parelli techniques as a cause.  doesn't mean it doesn't exist, I have yet to hear people talk about it or ask for help as a result of the program.  lots for helping a horse they aquired that way.

I will defend the "program" but not the "man".  I am not Pat or Linda's keeper nor protector.  But I whole heartedly believe in the program, that they created and teach with phenominal success.  What you may have seen/not seen, understood/misunderstood, is NOT a reflection of the program.  be it right or wrong, it is a technique that few in the program could handle doing as it is more advanced than we are, and we, parelli students, know we are not qualified to duplicate, replicate nor EXPLAIN it, as we either don't understand ourselves, understand but cannot explain in a way that someone else would understand, or for personal reasons feel it is not our issue to explain.  you want an explaination from a student, then ask them about something THEY themselves do.  While we ALL want an explanation from pat, we likely will NOT get it.  Not here, not on the savvy forum, and not in person.  there is just as big an uproar and differing views within our own communtiy as there is outside it.  those that understand what he did the best are higher up in the program, and the higher you go, the fewer the numbers.  despite what you may think, the program devolps skills of increasing difficulty, and like with any sport, there are fewer at the top than the bottom.

I don't feel ripped off, or dooped by these people, and not because I am brainwashed by a cult.  because I got every pennies worth out of it, that I paid for and then some.  AND you should know, that we, the students, have pushed and pushed for more out of these people.  "give us more" like featherless chicks in a nest, reaching into the bowls of our parents for the food and nourishment that we know they can provide.  we have been demanding beyond all belief, and they have done everything they can to feed our hunger.  I can't for a moment imagine what it must be like to live thier lives.  to be damed if you do, and damed if you don't.  they could never in a million years make EVERYONE happy at the same time.  NEVER.  they are in simple terms, just meeting the demands of THIER consumers.

body language and "common sense" cannot be BOUGHT but it can be TAUGHT.  

I cannot say "no one" in this sentance for I do not know everyone on the planet.  but no one forced anyone to go to see him.  you cannot force this program or beliefs on someone.  you cannot force people to buy your products.  Pat and Linda are not holding a gun to anyone's head.  and neither is any student (I feel confident that there are no savvy students holding guns to peoples heads, carrot sticks maybe, but if needed you should be able to outrun a carrot stick)  you can walk away, but likely PRIDE is what keeps both sides with toes glued to the front line.  I know many of you firmly believe that we have been dooped into joining, and brain washed into staying.  but please, seriously?  do you think we are ALL that stupid?  I will againd admit, yes there are some that make it appear that way, but there are many just like them in the dressage world, jumper world, etc.  that is NOT exclusive to parelli.  the reason they have so many stuedents, is because they have an incredibly great product and people like them.  pretty simple really.  he is not THAT good of a snake charmer.

I think I covered my notes

oh wait

munchkin please be more open minded to the fact that we are all individuals, and mostly intelligent ones too.  while like minded, we are not single minded.  And just because ONE person gets defensive (you feel) doesn't mean that we cannot all be trusted or are coming in, charming the pants off of you, and then devilishly awaiting for the pounce point.  

this is a heated subject based on a unique incident. (unfortunately those are starting to add up)  again, this is not the sum of the whole, and we the students, be us followers or dabblers, are not responsible for defending, or explaing the actions of Pat or Linda.

for those of you who have skipped thru the thread, I politely ask you to read all of my posts, in case you missed them, if only to know that not ALL parelli students are the same, and more are like me, than are like you invision us all to be.  I have been on both sides of the fence.  I have sat in the very place you are sitting now. can't get into story, sorry, honestly wish I could.  I am not the only one turning down becoming a parelli professional bases soley on a lack of good judgement on the part of the world view of the parelli 
organization. as it will directly effect us if we were to be a franshised member.
you are not alone in questioning him and what he did, we are too. our reasons vary as well as yours. we too hope for an explanation.

last note, thank you again to those of you who have expressed enjoyment of my involvement, my stories or what ever it may be.  i cried writing the "dream" sequence too. but I am a sap.

I humbly invite you to my first thread

"ask a parelli student"


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## Munchkin (12 July 2010)

tongue~n~cheek said:



			munchkin please be more open minded to the fact that we are all individuals, and mostly intelligent ones too.  while like minded, we are not single minded.  And just because ONE person gets defensive (you feel) doesn't mean that we cannot all be trusted or are coming in, charming the pants off of you, and then devilishly awaiting for the pounce point.
		
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First of all, thank you for singling me out from the 400 people with the exact same opinion, I feel honoured 

I was open minded, I went, I saw, I listened, I met many, many followers of Parelli. I've met many more over the years. I can honestly say that these people had little respect for the techniques of other horse people and were incredibly patronising toward anyone who didn't see what they thought they saw in Parelli's techniques. Asking questions, or challenging anything that Pat, Linda or the programme taught or encouraged, was simply met with defensiveness. "We do not need to explain to the likes of you, your poor horses, you will never understand, we will pray for you" yada yada.

My opinions have not been formed by reading a few threads on HHO, they have been formed over many years of meeting Parelli people and coming up against this attitude.

For what it's worth I believe many of Parelli's methods are worthy of use, but I also doubt they were created by him - they've simply been branded by him.

You appear to be the exception to the rule, Tongue n Cheek, and unfortunately until I meet more people like yourself, my opinion will remain as stated.


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## MotherOfChickens (12 July 2010)

intouch said:



			So long as you watch this the whole way through!!  5 mins in the buck stopper compared to seriously hurting someone or ending up in the factory.  No contest, in my view.  
I can't see it as being worse than many of the other contraptions that are used daily in horses' mouths.  (I know - no one on here has dreadful hands or uses evil bits...)
		
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horses often buck because they are in pain-have all these horses been worked up to check for that? how many times have we heard on this forum alone of horses with behavioural problems actually having a medical cause? and agree re the demo setting, its no place to sort out a problem-none of these people have the horse's dignity in mind, just $$$$$$$


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## horses13 (12 July 2010)

We hear so much about the cruelty at Appleby horse fair.
The R.S.P.C.A. World horse welfare etc should attend these shows and put an end to thecruel pain and suffering these animals are put through.


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## Maesfen (12 July 2010)

tongue~n~cheek said:



			I will defend the "program" but not the "man".  I am not Pat or Linda's keeper nor protector.  But I whole heartedly believe in the program, that they created and teach with phenominal success.  What you may have seen/not seen, understood/misunderstood, is NOT a reflection of the program.  be it right or wrong, it is a technique that few in the program could handle doing as it is more advanced than we are, and we, parelli students, know we are not qualified to duplicate, replicate nor EXPLAIN it, as we either don't understand ourselves, understand but cannot explain in a way that someone else would understand, or for personal reasons feel it is not our issue to explain.  you want an explaination from a student, then ask them about something THEY themselves do.  While we ALL want an explanation from pat, we likely will NOT get it.  Not here, not on the savvy forum, and not in person.  there is just as big an uproar and differing views within our own communtiy as there is outside it.  those that understand what he did the best are higher up in the program, and the higher you go, the fewer the numbers.  despite what you may think, the program devolps skills of increasing difficulty, and like with any sport, there are fewer at the top than the bottom.
		
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TnC, it's been refreshing to read your posts but I do have to take issue on this 'statement above from you', sorry.

You don't have to be advanced to know that 'the end result justifies the means' is not applicable in this case because it was too sustained.  That was a deplorable action from someone who should have known a great deal better and My original view of RW was not improved either; they are both a disgrace to the equestrian world.


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## Godknows (12 July 2010)

ester said:



			just watched the latest back flip vid, he does have some pretty quick reactions... 

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The horse had full blinkers covering his eyes I'm sure?? No wonder it went backwards


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## intouch (12 July 2010)

CalllyH said:



			Im skipping through some of the pages as its late and this thread is huge but just watched this http://www.youtube.com/user/ParelliTube#p/u/0/8j25pS6ixWk of catwalk 

look how much force Pat is using on him - the horses spirit has just dissapeared and look at the bit when he nearly kicks him in the head 

To me these too are animal abusers making a fast buck - can not bear it at all
		
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Just seen this.  He obviously skips the bad stuff here.


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## muffinino (12 July 2010)

Above all else, for the sake of Catwalk I really, really hope the reports of the injury caused by the gum twitch being so bad a vet refused to let him be used again on the Saturday are untrue, because if they are, well, there are no words for how angry that makes me. That PP, LP and RW, all respected in the horse world (by different people, although none of them by me), could do this for three hours and think its ok for the horse to walk away injured makes me sick. I dont care what you think of Parelli or any other method, I do not care what anybody says about PP releasing the pressure throughout the show, for that to happen is totally, completely, utterly unacceptable on any level.

Does anybody know if these reports have been confirmed?


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## MotherOfChickens (12 July 2010)

ponydentist said:



			It is human supremacy over animals....its why we kep horses and other animals....it makes us feel better if we do.
		
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no, that's not why I keep them, it makes me sad that you think this and shows the problem and difference between Parelli and most of the rest of us.






ponydentist said:



			My understanding of what one leg hobbling is about and where and how it should be applied...used..whatever you wish to call it...is that what tying one leg up on a horse does is that it puts him in a very vunerable situation / position.....posibly one of his worst case scenarios because he cannot run as he would like to if the need arose. whilst he is in that predicament he probably at some stage thinks hes going to die.....but if nice things happen to him whilst hes in that situation and his worse fears dont come true he can cope with and conforont thise fears in a much more confident way in future.
		
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would you use this method for other animals? surely if this was used for people it would be termed psychological torture?

it's *******s and it shows a complete lack of respect for the horse and its nature. wrong on so many levels, I hardly know where to start.


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## ester (12 July 2010)

Godknows said:



			The horse had full blinkers covering his eyes I'm sure?? No wonder it went backwards

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actually there is a girl on here with a horse called lacey who is a rearer who has flipped. I know that she has sent her to someone using MR techniques and they are using a very large set of blinkers... the theory being if they can't see above them they won't go up. 

Re I think callyh's comment of PP kicking the horse I didn't really see it as that more him just lifting his head... without having to bend down and pick it up. So I didnt really see anything wrong with that... sure I have used my foot to lift sleepy pony's head up from the ground slightly!


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## asterid (12 July 2010)

Changes said:



			@ misterjay - that's plain scary ..... makes the moonies look quite normal...... :-/
		
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LMFAO!


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## Spudlet (12 July 2010)

My issue with many demos of this kind is that instant, miraculous results are expected by the audience, and that's not always possible with horses. Some things take time to sort out, you have to go for tiny, incremental improvements rather than magic cures. The format of these demos - not just Parelli, other horse whisperer type demos of all kinds - often seems geared towards the amazing magic cure rather than a more structured approach that people could actually take home and do themselves.

For example, with a headshy horse, you could set your first goal as being able to calmly stroke his head all over, and work up - not march straight in with the goal of getting a bridle on straight away. For a horse scared of loading your first step might be just calmly walking through the trailer - not loading straight in and driving off the first time you try.


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## Amymay (12 July 2010)

Haven't read the whole massive thread - so sorry if I'm asking a question that's been raised before.

But what are the organisers of Stonleigh doing about the 'demonstration', and has the abuse been reported to the relevant welfare organisations?

Does anyone know why the 'demonstration' wasn't halted by those in charge at the time?  

Did no one attempt to stop it??


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## muffinino (12 July 2010)

Spudlet said:



			My issue with many demos of this kind is that instant, miraculous results are expected by the audience, and that's not always possible with horses. Some things take time to sort out, you have to go for tiny, incremental improvements rather than magic cures. The format of these demos - not just Parelli, other horse whisperer type demos of all kinds - often seems geared towards the amazing magic cure rather than a more structured approach that people could actually take home and do themselves.

For example, with a headshy horse, you could set your first goal as being able to calmly stroke his head all over, and work up - not march straight in with the goal of getting a bridle on straight away. For a horse scared of loading your first step might be just calmly walking through the trailer - not loading straight in and driving off the first time you try.
		
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I totally agree. I've never understood why people think its amazing that you can get results in an hour through these methods and why gaining a horse's trust through patience and quieter methods aren't as valid. As much as I respect Monty Roberts, I'll never forget what my instructor said when the documentary about him taming a wild mustang in three days came out. She could not understand why chasing it for three days straight until it was tired, dehydrated and at the point of giving up, then hopping on its back, was acceptable, more so than slowly taming it and letting it learn that it had nothing to fear from humans. Having worked with wild ponies and broken them for driving over a period of time, I'm inclined to agree with her.


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## ester (12 July 2010)

amymay... having read the whole thread I don't think there are any answers for you in it.


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## Crackajack (12 July 2010)

ester said:



			actually there is a girl on here with a horse called lacey who is a rearer who has flipped. I know that she has sent her to someone using MR techniques and they are using a very large set of blinkers... the theory being if they can't see above them they won't go up. 

Re I think callyh's comment of PP kicking the horse I didn't really see it as that more him just lifting his head... without having to bend down and pick it up. So I didnt really see anything wrong with that... sure I have used my foot to lift sleepy pony's head up from the ground slightly!
		
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I use my feet to ask my horse to pick his head up - normally when im tacking up and he decides he wants to keep his head on the floor and puff out...i dont touch him its just more of a lazy signal to him!
I dont know about the blinkers tho...?
Has anybody found a video of the night when he did Robert's horse?
Ive started looking through the thread but kinda gave up!


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## Oldred (12 July 2010)

muffinino said:



			Above all else, for the sake of Catwalk I really, really hope the reports of the injury caused by the gum twitch being so bad a vet refused to let him be used again on the Saturday are untrue, because if they are, well, there are no words for how angry that makes me. That PP, LP and RW, all respected in the horse world (by different people, although none of them by me), could do this for three hours and think its ok for the horse to walk away injured makes me sick. I dont care what you think of Parelli or any other method, I do not care what anybody says about PP releasing the pressure throughout the show, for that to happen is totally, completely, utterly unacceptable on any level.

Does anybody know if these reports have been confirmed?
		
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I am sorry to say it is true. If you would like to ring the Festival of the Horse organisers - Alice Bell 02476 858276 she will confirm this. Andrea Jackman, BHS Development Officer 01686 627050 is also aware of the situation. Both acted admirably at the time and I thank them.


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## Amymay (12 July 2010)

ester said:



			amymay... having read the whole thread I don't think there are any answers for you in it.
		
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Thanks Ester.

Nothing on YouTube either.

I wonder how many people who saw the demo will be writing letters of complaint to the Stonleight organisers.  Would be a very interesting topic for H&H to follow up.


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## new-here (12 July 2010)

Okay, this may be kinda random, but to those of you who are fans of endo ...

http://www.youtube.com/user/endospink#p/u/61/M6NUnAoRNLc

I can't remember who said it or when it was said, but a few of you have talked about restraining terrified horses (not the exact words, but you get the idea). Now I'm sorry, but I don't see how you can come on here with all these negative comments about Parelli but like this? All I seen in this video was a horse forced in to submission. Did you see how tight he was pulling on that horses bit?

Horses are prey animals, as many of you said, they are most vunerable when lying down. Why then force this horse to lie down? Fight or flight. He tried to run, but couldn't. He tried to fight and then gave up. Horses are not affraid we're going to hurt them, they're afraid we're going to kill them. That horse effectively thought he was about to die. He gave up.

I'm almost certain that horses mouth hurt almost as much (maybe more) than RW stallion. And I can assure you, it looked way more distressed. That particular horse came out of that with no dignity at all.

I'm not justifying anything that happened at festival of the horse, I'm just throwing in some food for thought.


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## MotherOfChickens (12 July 2010)

muffinino said:



			She could not understand why chasing it for three days straight until it was tired, dehydrated and at the point of giving up, then hopping on its back, was acceptable, more so than slowly taming it and letting it learn that it had nothing to fear from humans. Having worked with wild ponies and broken them for driving over a period of time, I'm inclined to agree with her.
		
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I agree, I couldnt understand what was acceptable about that either and have never thought much of MR because of that.


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## Amymay (12 July 2010)

Oldred said:



			I am sorry to say it is true. If you would like to ring the Festival of the Horse organisers - Alice Bell  she will confirm this. Andrea Jackman, BHS Development Officer is also aware of the situation. Both acted admirably at the time and I thank them.
		
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What did they do??


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## lastchancer (12 July 2010)

horses13 said:



			We hear so much about the cruelty at Appleby horse fair.
The R.S.P.C.A. World horse welfare etc should attend these shows and put an end to thecruel pain and suffering these animals are put through.
		
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Absolutely - but of course the Tinks don't bother with sentimental music, and fancy cowboy clothes do they?? I know who I'd sooner trust with my horse and it wouldn't be Pat and his merry men.

Going back to the leg tying technique, I think this is Pat Repelli trying to copy the late great John Rarey, a man who used to deal with the stallions that 'dominance' obsessed fools had made vicious. Except there was much more to it than simply dropping the horse and John Rarey was very careful who he passed his methods on to - because as we all know a little knowledge is a very dangerous thing in the wrong hands.

I have owned and handled stallions and the last thing they need or respond well to is an ego fuelled bully.

Seems alot of these big name horse trainers are using other peoples horses as guinea pigs for techniques they have not tried. Blinkers? for a rearer? HAHAHAHA Did they then try the egg on head? I tried both with mine years ago..... Turned out all he needed a bit of schooling and a good scutch with a branch plucked from the hedge.


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## Spudlet (12 July 2010)

NH does have is good points I think - being able to read a horses body language is a good thing, and if people learn from a guy in a cowboy hat or a BHS Fellow makes no odds IMO. And I think it's good for people to be open minded about trying new things. And I like the emphasis on groundwork in some NH schools of thought, I think this is often beneficial, and if playing games with the horse leaves the horse mentally stimulated and non-stressed, then why not? 

So I am not anti-NH, just don't believe in quick fixes. If horses have a problem with something, there is normally a reason behind that, be it a bad experience or a powerful instinct, and it needs time and patience to overcome them.

Not commenting on this demo because I wasn't there.


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## MotherOfChickens (12 July 2010)

new-here said:



			Okay, this may be kinda random, but to those of you who are fans of endo ...
.
		
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endospink makes me very uncomfortable-again, not really seeing the need for it.


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## asterid (12 July 2010)

Is it me or do all the parelli followers all sound the same? And they don't think they are brain washed or from a cult??????????

We may rant, but we all don't say the same rehersed speech! 

And TnC do you really think that we are all naive to think that we are all just little people on here in the competition world? There are high level competition riders on here! As far as I'm aware the FEI hasn't made parelli a sport! 

Do you really think that hobbling a horse and PP's form of twitch are natural? No bloody matter how advanced he maybe and keeps his advanced work secret! It is secret because he is following methods that aren't sodding natural! And you yourself say you dont understand it. Thats encouraging then!

There are plenty of top competition riders who share their techniques that do not involve cruelty! 

A girl at my yard has sent her horse off to be parelli backed! God help that horse. I didn't have the heart to explain my opinion. She obviously feels it is a last resort, but she wont be seeing what they are doing to it! The woman that took her horse up said, "ooo, they all look like cowboys!"... Thats because they are! They should be on trading standards lists! or rogue traders!

Honestly, my blood pressure is getting high!


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## ester (12 July 2010)

new-here I think I am open minded about what endo does and find the physiology behind it interesting. He is also working almost exclusively with entire racing colts for whom he is their last chance and owners want a quick fix so I do kind of get that. 

There are some colt breaking vids of a comp he did in the US... he didnt get through to the final day as he had taken it too slowly (that was without TAPing them as the judges wouldn't like that)

He has said on one of his video's comments that he believes there is a subtle difference between laying a horse down by tying its leg up... therefore rendering it truely trapped and immobile and having to submit laying them down the way he does it. Whether he is right or not I don't know but I don't like seeing horses with legs tied up.

I suppose I am more open minded about what he does rather than parelli... perhaps partly because I would never even consider trying it myself!


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## Oldred (12 July 2010)

amymay said:



			What did they do??
		
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BHS representative phoned FoTH organiser who sent the vet to look at the horse. BHS reported back that the vet had examined the horse, found the lesion on the gum and that the horse would not be used in the demonstration the next day.


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## Mind4sport (12 July 2010)

I watched the Parelli demonstration in the main ring before the Pro Am Dressage.  Too be honest, there was less than 100 people in the whole arena watching.  I saw nothing to impress or to actually convince me that it was the right way to handle a horse.
Could it be simply:
Carrot stick = lunge whip?
Training line = lunge line?
Rope Halter = head collar?

I watched with an open mind and would suggest that the marketing and terminology is very cleverly designed to ensnare those looking for a kinder way, which may not actually be kinder to the horse, but is kinder to the bankbalance of a few!!


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## ester (12 July 2010)

Oldred said:



			BHS representative phoned FoTH organiser who sent the vet to look at the horse. BHS reported back that the vet had examined the horse, found the lesion on the gum and that the horse would not be used in the demonstration the next day.
		
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but pat was still allowed to handle the horse outside of the demo arena?


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## muffinino (12 July 2010)

Oldred said:



			I am sorry to say it is true. If you would like to ring the Festival of the Horse organisers - Alice Bell 02476 858276 she will confirm this. Andrea Jackman, BHS Development Officer 01686 627050 is also aware of the situation. Both acted admirably at the time and I thank them.
		
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What did they do? I don't mean that in an abrasive way, I genuinely don't know 

I just...there are no words. How the f*** can anybody, let alone highly experienced professionals, think that damaging a horse's mouth to the point where a vet stops him from being used, is acceptabe? I had no respect for the Parellis to begin with and not much for RW (I witnessed shocking behaviour from him whilst stood in the warm up ring with my scurries at HOYS); now they've gone into negative equity. Not that any of them will give a sh*t amyway but there you go.

Before anybody defends them by harping on about harsh bits being used and mouths being damaged that way, don't bother. That is also unacceptable but this was a demo, one that was supposed to teach people how to handle a horse that already has issues with his head. HTF is damaging his mouth and causing him further pain going to help with this? I know I wasn't there but if this is being confirmed by the organisers, that's good enough for me.

To whom do I complain?


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## muffinino (12 July 2010)

Oldred said:



			BHS representative phoned FoTH organiser who sent the vet to look at the horse. BHS reported back that the vet had examined the horse, found the lesion on the gum and that the horse would not be used in the demonstration the next day.
		
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Ah, ok, that answers my question. You must have been typing at the same time as me.

I'm so glad that somebody cared about Catwalk's welfare as the lot in the ring clearly didn't give a sh*t.


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## Amymay (12 July 2010)

To whom do I complain?
		
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Stonleigh organisers and the BHS I guess for starters.


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## new-here (12 July 2010)

peteralfred said:



			endospink makes me very uncomfortable-again, not really seeing the need for it.
		
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Well to be honest, I'm not really seeing the need for your comment either. Since endospink makes you uncomfortable, you're obviously not one of the people I was getting at.

Ester - I can see that you are pretty open minded. I don't like laying a horse down full stop. Rope or reins, it doesn't matter, if my horse wants to lay down for me then he will without me having to make him do it. I really dislike it when people talk about causing a horse to submit. It may be just me, but I'd rather have respect than submission.

What I don't understand is that everyone goes nuts when someone does something wrong, but no one is ready to applaud anyone when something is done correctly.
Lauren Barwick, a Parelli student, won Gold and Silver at the 2008 Paralympics. I don't see any massive threads relating to that?
Pat Parelli does something that you dont agree with and everyone's on here at the drop of a hat.


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## dingle12 (12 July 2010)

Im not suprised Rob let it all happen sadly i am suprised he let it happen in public though.


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## solgabrien (12 July 2010)

I don't know much about Parelli - but this sounds awful! I used to look after a VERY headshy polo pony and found that a small handful of food with the bit was the best way for us to bridle her - not ideal, and it still took 2 people but surely easier and less distressing than ropes!!!!


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## MotherOfChickens (12 July 2010)

new-here said:



			Well to be honest, I'm not really seeing the need for your comment either. Since endospink makes you uncomfortable, you're obviously not one of the people I was getting at.

Ester - I can see that you are pretty open minded. I don't like laying a horse down full stop. Rope or reins, it doesn't matter, if my horse wants to lay down for me then he will without me having to make him do it. I really dislike it when people talk about causing a horse to submit. It may be just me, but I'd rather have respect than submission.

What I don't understand is that everyone goes nuts when someone does something wrong, but no one is ready to applaud anyone when something is done correctly.
Lauren Barwick, a Parelli student, won Gold and Silver at the 2008 Paralympics. I don't see any massive threads relating to that?
Pat Parelli does something that you dont agree with and everyone's on here at the drop of a hat.
		
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I can comment on what the **** I want thanks, it makes me uncomfortable but I didnt dismiss it out of hand. who the **** are you to say my comment isnt warranted-you werent the only person to bring him up?


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## new-here (12 July 2010)

peteralfred said:



			I can comment on what the **** I want thanks, it makes me uncomfortable but I didnt dismiss it out of hand. who the **** are you to say my comment isnt warranted-you werent the only person to bring him up?
		
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Ah, so my comment wasn't needed but yours was? Okay then.  Did I say I was the only person to bring him up .. No.


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## siennamum (12 July 2010)

new-here said:



			Well to be honest, I'm not really seeing the need for your comment either. Since endospink makes you uncomfortable, you're obviously not one of the people I was getting at.

Ester - I can see that you are pretty open minded. I don't like laying a horse down full stop. Rope or reins, it doesn't matter, if my horse wants to lay down for me then he will without me having to make him do it. I really dislike it when people talk about causing a horse to submit. It may be just me, but I'd rather have respect than submission.

What I don't understand is that everyone goes nuts when someone does something wrong, but no one is ready to applaud anyone when something is done correctly.
Lauren Barwick, a Parelli student, won Gold and Silver at the 2008 Paralympics. I don't see any massive threads relating to that?
Pat Parelli does something that you dont agree with and everyone's on here at the drop of a hat.
		
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WHAT has been done correctly. Please enlighten us.

Someone winning at an event in 2008 doesn't really do it for me tbh. I can come up with hundeds of people who have won stuff right up to date, who wouldn't hit their horses round the head with a piece of metal on a rope, twitch their horses instead of spending a little time uncovering the cause of a problem, force them physically to submit until they are more afraid of the handler than the object of their fear or tying their legs up in rope.

There are to points which I think are being overlooked by supporters of PP, as they are unable to answer them.

1. JG and Petalfred both suggested that in all likelihood the cause of this & other problems is generally physical. Why force a horse to do something when it objects because it hurts. Why not remove the cause of the pain - simples.
2. Why make such a feckin fuss over a horse which doesn't like it's ears being touched (wow, dangerous beast that!). It's no big deal, give it a couple of months of kind handling & it will get over it. What a shambles.


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## Spudlet (12 July 2010)

Hello New-Here. If people feel uncomfortable with something, surely the best reaction is to try and explain why what is being done is ok rather than having a go? Makes you look kind of defensive and like you have something to hide.

I had never heard of this 'endo' thing you talk about, but given your posts so far I think I'll keep it that way!


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## spaniel (12 July 2010)

endoscope maybe??....that irritating thing that gets up your arse.


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## eahotson (12 July 2010)

AMYMAY some people did protest and tried to get the demo stopped.They latter confronted PP and RW.RW said it was Alright by me! PP said it was for the good of the horse!!! I will give the Parellis their due though on 2 counts.One they are upfront about who they are and what they do.I am not sure that ponydentist was.Secondly a lot ofstuff is putup about them but they have never tried to have any threads pulled. A lot ofpeople would.Try an Why do we all hate Robert Whitaker thread.See what happens.


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## Cedars (12 July 2010)

HappyHorses:) said:



			I think I'm going to kick my colt in his knackers next time he looks at a mare. That should make me dominant over him .
		
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Sorry havent got to end of post yet but this made me laugh so much LOL


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## TrecInWales (12 July 2010)

CalllyH said:



			look at the bit when he nearly kicks him in the head
		
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how can anyone take such forum posts seriously when you can't differentiate between a passive drive using the foot and a kick...

On Friday I saw a skilled horseman attempting to correct avoidance behaviour. The stallion is a lovely horse yet was highly evasive to the  receiving of a bridle.

As Robert mentioned at the beginning, there is no way he could bridle the horse and you would not like the techniques grooms use to get a bridle on the horse...

Not once in the session did we see a scared horse, the stallion was confident and evasive; plain and simple (and with good reason considering how the bridling of this animal has likely been performed in the past).

I do question the selection of this horse for a general-public session due to the inherent lack of horse behaviour knowledge of the spectators, leaving some people to misread the situation entirely. And no, owning MANY horses for MANY years does not  inherently give you any insight into horse behaviour and psychology. 

I believe the Parelli people should have had someone explaining as the session progressed to help the spectators understand.  The posts on this forum thread provide ample evidence that such an explanation was needed.

Obviously if you did not attend (quite a high percentage of the posts here are from such individuals) then you really cannot really add to this discussion in a negative or positive way.


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## Red30563 (12 July 2010)

eahotson said:



			One they are upfront about who they are and what they do.
		
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If this is the case, then why oh why are they not showing the whole video? Surely if they are proud of their achievements over the weekend, they need to post the vids to quiet down the growing hurricane of criticism aimed at them?


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## new-here (12 July 2010)

siennamum said:



			WHAT has been done correctly. Please enlighten us.

Someone winning at an event in 2008 doesn't really do it for me tbh. I can come up with hundeds of people who have won stuff right up to date, who wouldn't hit their horses round the head with a piece of metal on a rope, twitch their horses instead of spending a little time uncovering the cause of a problem, force them physically to submit until they are more afraid of the handler than the object of their fear or tying their legs up in rope.

There are to points which I think are being overlooked by supporters of PP, as they are unable to answer them.

1. JG and Petalfred both suggested that in all likelihood the cause of this & other problems is generally physical. Why force a horse to do something when it objects because it hurts. Why not remove the cause of the pain - simples.
2. Why make such a feckin fuss over a horse which doesn't like it's ears being touched (wow, dangerous beast that!). It's no big deal, give it a couple of months of kind handling & it will get over it. What a shambles.
		
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I appologise for my word use here. Perhaps "correctly" wasn't a great choice. That kind of implies that there is only one "correct" way. So sorry for that.

First of all, you mention the metal clip. That is used after the horse has been asked a few times to back up. If he doesn't back up, then the rythm in the rope causes the clip to smack their chin, yes. But look at it this way .. when another horse asks your horse to back up, it will put it ears back and then either bite or kick. That is essentially what the smack of the clip is - a horse bite.

I can't comment very much about the stallion, because I wasn't there, but from what I have heard it was a lot more extreme than him not wanting his ears touched. Also, I do not beleive that the cause of the horse's problem was pain.

Lastly - "force them physically to submit until they are more afraid of the handler than the object of their fear" - you should probably research this a little more before you make comments like that. This is not something Pat Parelli practices or teaches.




			Hello New-Here. If people feel uncomfortable with something, surely the best reaction is to try and explain why what is being done is ok rather than having a go? Makes you look kind of defensive and like you have something to hide.
		
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Sorry if it came across that way.  It really wasn't meant like that. It just seems to me that this whole Festival of the horse thing has been blown a bit out of proportion. I provided the link to endospink in the hopes of putting things back in to proportion a little.


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## eahotson (12 July 2010)

I am not trying to defend the Parellis really.Just that they do say who they are whereas I think that ponydentist was far more into all of this than he was prepared to be honest about.TrecinWales.We have heard it all before.If you don't understand its your fault, if the horse doesn't understand its his fault.


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## muffinino (12 July 2010)

TrecInWales said:



			Obviously if you did not attend (quite a high percentage of the posts here are from such individuals) then you really cannot really add to this discussion in a negative or positive way.
		
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I think the fact the vet would not allow Catwalk to be used the next day speaks for itself., at least in terms of the damage done to his mouth. That is pretty much all I need to know to be able to comment on that particular aspect of the demo. Explain to me how damaging a horse's mouth is meant to help with headshy issues.


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## Amymay (12 July 2010)

whereas I think that ponydentist was far more into all of this than he was prepared to be honest about
		
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I got from his post that he was totally in to it, and was not intending to mislead - just promote a somewhat intersting discussion/debate.....


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## siennamum (12 July 2010)

new-here said:



			First of all, you mention the metal clip. That is used after the horse has been asked a few times to back up. If he doesn't back up, then the rythm in the rope causes the clip to smack their chin, yes. But look at it this way .. when another horse asks your horse to back up, it will put it ears back and then either bite or kick. That is essentially what the smack of the clip is - a horse bite.
		
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My horses learn to back up when I face them and say back. If they don't then I poke them in the chest. I have even been known to slap them on the chest and to push them back forcibly to get the message across. I also step on their coronet band, use a chest twitch and put my palm across the bridge of their nose & push their head back/away, different things work with different horses. They learn to go back straight away after I ask it once or twice.  (then they get some nuts and sometimes a kiss on the nose)

They would never back up if I just wave the lead rope at them, they would look at me as if I was deranged, but then I've never really hurt them or had to. Difference in approach I suppose. I love having a partnership based on trust as well as respect & generally that involves not hitting them round the head & hurting them.


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## muffinino (12 July 2010)

Fair enough that people can't comment on aspects of the demo if they weren't there but I think has caused enough concern amongst some people who were there (remember the OP is there because of such a person) that it needs clearing up. If the BHS is going to keep members and their respect, and this demo having caused such concern, they need to justify having Parelli at Stoneleigh. I'll say again what I said yesterday - maybe the Parellis or someone who understands what was going on and was there should post the entire 3 hours or so online, instead of the 9 seconds that is up, so that people can see and judge for themselves. That way, it will not be hearsay that people are reacting to (not that I'm saying anybody has lied about what they saw) but what they see with their own eyes.

If there was nothing untoward happening in the demo, then it will be self evident.


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## siennamum (12 July 2010)

TrecInWales said:



			Obviously if you did not attend (quite a high percentage of the posts here are from such individuals) then you really cannot really add to this discussion in a negative or positive way.
		
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I've never met Robet Mugabe, am I allowed an opinion on him? I also believe it's common knowledge there's no oxygen on the moon, though I bet lots of people who believe this  have NEVER been there - cheeky bu**ers.


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## muffinino (12 July 2010)

siennamum said:



			I also believe it's common knowledge there's no oxygen on the moon, though I bet lots of people who believe this  have NEVER been there - cheeky bu**ers.
		
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Damn their eyes for such presumptuousness!


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## jodie3 (12 July 2010)

Does't it just smack of total arrogance to try and 'cure' a problem like Catwalk's in a public arena?

Am I right in thinking that this demo was done as one of the many displays/demos going on at the Festival of the Horse?  So the audience would have been very mixed in its abilities and equine knowledge?  Some would surely have gone just for the entertainment value of watching say a non-loader walking happily into a trailer after 10 mins?  I'm sure that probably there were PP disciples there too wanting to see more but surely a public display like this was not the right place for a horse like Catwalk?  IMO PP seriously misjudged the extent of the problem and the public furore he would cause.  Or perhaps he doesn't care?

Looking at the Facebook site it would seem that the full video might end up on one of his Savvy CDs but I believe you would have to buy it?

I've watched the edited clip PP has chosen to make public and found the part where they are 'sharing lunch' made me feel quite nauseous.  

I would be interested to see how Catwalk's career progresses after this appalling treatment.

(I am not anti NH methods, I had an Intelligent Horsemanship RA out to help me with my boy last week and the difference she has made is amazing and she explained absolutely everything.)


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## poops (12 July 2010)

Wow I have now read all 46 pages! Still haven't discovered why Catwalk is so headshy. Did RW explain why? Has he had the horse long? Has he always been headshy, did a vet check whether he has a medical problem? 

Sorry if I am sounding a bit dim here but surely RW gave the audience all this info & details of Catwalks history before PP began his " natural techinques" on the poor animal.


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## fburton (12 July 2010)

Naturally said:



			Andrew Maclean also said he thought this was an excellent practice.
		
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Knowing Andrew, it surprises me that he would favour the kind of flooding you describe (or any kind for that matter) over progressive desensitization, i.e. exposing a horse to something that's frightening little by little, being careful not to provoke a full-blown flight response, until he relaxes and accept what was initially feared. Can you remember where he said or wrote this?


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## muffinino (12 July 2010)

poops said:



			Wow I have now read all 46 pages! Still haven't discovered why Catwalk is so headshy. Did RW explain why? Has he had the horse long? Has he always been headshy, did a vet check whether he has a medical problem? 

Sorry if I am sounding a bit dim here but surely RW gave the audience all this info & details of Catwalks history before PP began his " natural techinques" on the poor animal.
		
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Who knows? We only will if they have the balls to post the hours of work that was done with Catwalk somewhere the public can view it. Maybe it will be on Horse & Country?


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## Weezy (12 July 2010)

I admit to having done rope twirling with Ted to get him to appreciate that I have my space and he has his, however, he learnt very quickly (5 mins) and I only used a normal length lead rope, didn't connect with him at all and he is now fabulous about keeping out of my space (which is good, seeing he is over 17hh).  So why the necessity to bang a horse on the chin, I don't see one, sorry.  I will also push them backwards so they understand what is being asked of them - hitting them with a clip means they are moving backwards because it hurts and it IS bullying IMO.




			how can anyone take such forum posts seriously when you can't differentiate between a passive drive using the foot and a kick...
		
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Again, the word PASSIVE.  If we make a move towards a horse it is not passive, the definition of passive is this...

&#8211;adjective
1.
not reacting visibly to something that might be expected to produce manifestations of an emotion or feeling.
2.
not participating readily or actively; inactive: a passive member of a committee.
3.
not involving visible reaction or active participation: to play a passive role.
4.
inert or quiescent.
5.
influenced, acted upon, or affected by some external force, cause, or agency; being the object of action rather than causing action ( opposed to active).
6.
receiving or characterized by the reception of impressions or influences from external sources.
7.
produced or caused by an external agency.
8.
receiving, enduring, or submitting without resistance: a passive hypnotic subject.


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## Katikins (12 July 2010)

Sorry if I sound stupid here... but if it is 'impossible' to bridle this horse then why was it bought as a competition jumper?  Has RW actually had it out at any competitions (can't find any youtube clips) as that would mean that it is being bridled though I dread to think how.  Also, if RW is 'alright with it' to be treated like that then I VERY much doubt he has the patience to build up the horses trust slowly at home so that he can bridle it.  I'd place money on the fact he'd rather pin it down to tack up so he can ride rather than invest some time and patience in it.   With my old girl who was bad to bridle we'd sometimes spend 45 minutes getting the damn thing on nice and slowly and stress free, just to take it off again as a reward... anyone else see him doing this? I feel for his groom, I really really do!


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## Saratoga (12 July 2010)

If there really was nothing to hide in this demo then the full video, and an explanation over the top to explain what is going on, should be posted for all to see and understand.

If this doesn't happen then we can all assume there are things to hide in the demo, things did go wrong, apologies can be made and the world can carry on as it was.

All trainers make mistakes, but it takes a real horseman to realise/own up to their mistakes and learn from them.


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## ThePony (12 July 2010)

Phew, has taken some time to read all this, my head is spinning! I would love to see a video of the whole thing, though I think that may never happen.  Those who are defending it with the 'you don't understand' thing is rubbish. I would love to understand!  Please explain!  I'm sure I will spend the rest of my life learning about horse behaviour and riding etc - can't learn if someone won't explain. The best teachers in all things seem often not to even consider themselves instructors, just observing tallented people without ego to get in the way helps you!!  
From the you tube video, I guess the guy didn't kick his head, but if my mare drops her head (often hoovering up any scrap of food she can find!) then I squeek at her or something - she turns her attention to me, head up acheived - just seems a nicer way tbh.  To back up I wouldn't smack her with a metal clip - having her attention on me and then asking her to back up, moving a little into her space, and a poke on the shoulder as more of a hint all work nicely and calmly.  She doesn't like me touching her ears, she is sensitive about her ears and nose. Do I then spend an hour going all out to have her accept this? No!!!  Gently stroking her and moving closer to these areas over days and weeks until she is trusting of me and knows I'm not going to hurt her. Can happily stroke her over these areas and it doesn't bother her. I am not dominating her, she just knows that I'm not going to hurt her either.  None of this is a particular type of horsemanship sold as a brand, it just works in a way that us both seem to be happy with!
Those defending the behaviour mentioned at stonleigh just make me feel sad.  Thank you to those who have reported what they saw without sensationalising it. Also the quote about why we own animals, just sad. Horses are such intelligent creatures and brilliant individual characters, who wouldn't want one in their life?!  I wasn't a parelli follower before, though was pretty much neutral, I'm firmly on the 'no way' side now tbh, they scary way that they reply, while putting us down for not understanding, without being willing to help our understanding - makes me thing it is something I don't need in my life. Poor Catwalk.


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## sakura (12 July 2010)

that is exactly my opinion too saratoga, I fail to see why they're with holding the footage that they obviously have even though it's caused such a reaction, surely if they are so confident in their 'methods' they would happily plaster it all over the place? 

the more I think about this the more saddened I am by it all. Yesterday for the first time since I've owned him my horse finally accepted a bridle and bit being put on, this was a result of weeks and weeks of very gradual processes - in the past people have labelled him as being "rude", "bolshy" and in fact "dominant" over his shyness, but in fact he was very scared as a result of pain from his past, people did try and force it on him, and it plain didn't work and only served to reinforce his fears. ok so that's my horse, but surely the same principals are there? 

How PP can continue to ignore all this.... urrrgh


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## Weezy (12 July 2010)

Wonder if RW has ever tried to ride the horse in a Hackamore...


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## Munchkin (12 July 2010)

TrecInWales said:



			I do question the selection of this horse for a general-public session due to the inherent lack of horse behaviour knowledge of the spectators, leaving some people to misread the situation entirely. And no, owning MANY horses for MANY years does not  inherently give you any insight into horse behaviour and psychology.
		
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This is a wind up, yes?

So where did Parelli find his "insight", was he born with it? Is he some sort of Equine God? 

Owning many horses of many years, as well as learning from those who have done so before you, is the best possible way to learn about the behaviour of the animals.  If Parelli is telling you otherwise, it's because he wants you to buy his next DVD. He's pretty good at guilt tripping the gullible, in fact it seems he knows a lot more about human pscyhology than he does about horse psychology.


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## Katikins (12 July 2010)

OK figured I'd post this so I can get shot down in flames about how cruel I am by the Parelli lot.  This is the horse I had serious trouble bridling (including nearly getting knocked out by getting whacked on the head).  Its not the best vid in the world due to the light (and the (ex) boyfriend so please excuse him) but surely this way of introducing something slowly and praising what is going well is better than trussing the poor horse up like a chicken!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9BFHlAhzS8

NB: This horse came one leaps and bounds with me and is now 99% perfect with her new owners and is not headshy!


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## intouch (12 July 2010)

peteralfred said:



			horses often buck because they are in pain-have all these horses been worked up to check for that? how many times have we heard on this forum alone of horses with behavioural problems actually having a medical cause?
		
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I think this goes without saying.

I may have some respect for your opinion when you substantiate the defamatory remarks you made about Steve Halfpenny in an earlier thead.


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## MotherOfChickens (12 July 2010)

intouch said:



			I think this goes without saying.

I may have some respect for your opinion when you substantiate the defamatory remarks you made about Steve Halfpenny in an earlier thead.
		
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it doesnt go without saying when noone is saying it. And I care not whether you respect my opinion frankly.

I will not substantiate comments I made-they were not my horses and not my place to. Possibly I shouldnt have said what I did but knowing what I know my mouth got the better of me. Like I said, I have no clue who you are, why would I open my self up to that?


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## fburton (12 July 2010)

TrecInWales said:



			On Friday I saw a skilled horseman attempting to correct avoidance behaviour. The stallion is a lovely horse yet was highly evasive to the  receiving of a bridle.
		
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A really skilled horseman would have been able to correct the behaviour without resorting to gum lines and hobbling, no? But in any case, this kind of problem can be tackled by anyone with patience and a proper understanding of equine behaviour and how horses learn, taking however long it takes. It really isn't rocket science!




			As Robert mentioned at the beginning, there is no way he could bridle the horse and you would not like the techniques grooms use to get a bridle on the horse...
		
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What techniques did they use? Do you think they exacerbated the problem? Did the grooms use them because they didn't have the time to attempt the above?




			Not once in the session did we see a scared horse, the stallion was confident and evasive; plain and simple (and with good reason considering how the bridling of this animal has likely been performed in the past).
		
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It sounds like it was unpleasant for the horse though - unnecessarily unpleasant. Two hours is an awful long time (for a horse) for problem behaviours to be worked on intensively.




			I do question the selection of this horse for a general-public session due to the inherent lack of horse behaviour knowledge of the spectators, leaving some people to misread the situation entirely. And no, owning MANY horses for MANY years does not  inherently give you any insight into horse behaviour and psychology.
		
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So do you think RW comes into that category? I think, if he had the insight, he would have been able to help Catwalk himself, or at least known to instruct the grooms to stop bridling him in the way they did.




			I believe the Parelli people should have had someone explaining as the session progressed to help the spectators understand.  The posts on this forum thread provide ample evidence that such an explanation was needed.
		
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Maybe, maybe not. Sometimes the "explanations" given at these kind of public events are a whitewash/smokescreen to justify what many in the audience know deep down (because they are knowledgeable, experienced and/or have a natural horse-sense) is wrong.




			Obviously if you did not attend (quite a high percentage of the posts here are from such individuals) then you really cannot really add to this discussion in a negative or positive way.
		
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I did not attend, but would be very interested to see a full(er) video. Even without attending the event, there is much that can reasonably be questioned and discussed here.


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## PapaFrita (12 July 2010)

peteralfred said:



			I will not substantiate comments I made-they were not my horses and not my place to. Possibly I shouldnt have said what I did but knowing what I know my mouth got the better of me. Like I said, I have no clue who you are, why would I open my self up to that?
		
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Because HHO terms and conditions do not allow defamatory comments. If you're willing to criticise someone to complete strangers, I don't see any reason for you not to substantiate said comments to the same complete strangers.


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## Logres Farm (12 July 2010)

chestnuttymare said:



			I think if you saw the lady who helped me and some of her liveries working with some of their horses, you would change your mind about the 'old' parelli. It is kind, done with really subtle body language and all the horses are happy and stressless.
		
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We too have had only positive experiences with people who are advocates of Parelli, so I am a bit surprised by all of this, it is out of character with the people and methods I have seen.  At its best Parelli offers  a useful approach for some people. I do not mean to be argumentative with those here who are upset by what they saw and/or heard about this event. Since I did not see the incident in question,  I will withhold judgment.   

As you might guess, what really caught my eye about your post was the photo of your beautiful Doberman. What is the breeding? -Elaine


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## MotherOfChickens (12 July 2010)

PapaFrita said:



			Because HHO terms and conditions do not allow defamatory comments. If you're willing to criticise someone to complete strangers, I don't see any reason for you not to substantiate said comments to the same complete strangers.
		
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you are right in principle but please re-read my post above. I will not and I shouldnt have said what I did and I will not comment further.


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## PapaFrita (12 July 2010)

Logres Farm said:



			I do not mean to be argumentative with those here who are upset by what they saw and/or heard about this event, but there is so much to criticize in this world, most every where one turns,we prefer to keep our equine interest as positive as possible. Since I did not see the incident in question,  I will withhold judgment.
		
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Well, yes, there are many horrors in the world worse than PP allegedly rough-handling a horse. That does not mean we should tolerate cruelty where we perceive it.  There are countless videos on YouTube insisting that Parelli is the ONLY humane way to handle horses and essentially those of us who ride, travel horses in lorries, etc, etc, are cruel. Why are the Parelli people so intolerant of everyone else? You don't get Monty Roberts or Kelly Marx or Michael Peace saying that theirs in the only way. 
Personally, I will reserve judgement until I have the chance to see the full video. What I've seen so far does not impress me, but some people have come over a bit hysterical suggesting he 'nearly kicked' the horse in the head... utter rubbish. HAD his foot made contact it would've been a nudge. Lets keep it real.


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## PapaFrita (12 July 2010)

peteralfred said:



			you are right in principle but please re-read my post above. I will not and I shouldnt have said what I did and I will not comment further.
		
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In that case I suggest you pm admin and ask them to remove your post. It's not fair that you should leave a comment hanging in the air.


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## TrecInWales (12 July 2010)

fburton said:



			A really skilled horseman would have been able to correct the behaviour without resorting to gum lines and hobbling, no? But in any case, this kind of problem can be tackled by anyone with patience and a proper understanding of equine behaviour and how horses learn, taking however long it takes. It really isn't rocket science!
		
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We're in agreement that this isn't rocket science. I'm neither familiar with RW nor his team of helpers but considering the value of the stallion it would be sensible to assume a number of others have attempted to correct this behaviour before the Parelli sessions.

Again I agree that trying to rectify such an extreme issue in such a time limited environment was a very poor decision.


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## siennamum (12 July 2010)

Katikins said:



			OK figured I'd post this so I can get shot down in flames about how cruel I am by the Parelli lot.  This is the horse I had serious trouble bridling (including nearly getting knocked out by getting whacked on the head).  Its not the best vid in the world due to the light (and the (ex) boyfriend so please excuse him) but surely this way of introducing something slowly and praising what is going well is better than trussing the poor horse up like a chicken!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9BFHlAhzS8

NB: This horse came one leaps and bounds with me and is now 99% perfect with her new owners and is not headshy!
		
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Lovely video. How bizarre is the comparison between what you are doing and what we see on youtube regarding some Parelli advocates and their problem solving.


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## TrecInWales (12 July 2010)

fburton said:



			I did not attend, but would be very interested to see a full(er) video. Even without attending the event, there is much that can reasonably be questioned and discussed here.
		
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Due to the content and methods used I doubt a full(er) video will be made available until they publish the session in on of their DVDs with some sort of explanation/justification.

Unfortunately there were so few people at the Festival of the Horse that it's quite believable that there was no-one else there to take videos. The place was graveyard quiet bar those taking part in the competitions (and the Parelli lot of course, and there was not a lot of them until the Sunday).


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## Natch (12 July 2010)

Ok, I wanted to reply to several people, so please excuse how long this is going to be.

tongue~n~cheek  



			While we ALL want an explanation from pat, *we likely will NOT get it*. Not here, not on the savvy forum, and not in person. there is just as big an uproar and differing views within our own communtiy as there is outside it. those that understand what he did the best are higher up in the program, and the higher you go, the fewer the numbers. despite what you may think, the program devolps skills of increasing difficulty, and like with any sport, there are fewer at the top than the bottom.
		
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I think you may agree with me when I say, if it is so complicated that only the most advanced of his students can understand it, then surely doing it in front of an audience of the general public isn't the most rational of moves.

I think, as others have said, that several/many/most of us understand *the mechanics and psychology *of _what_ he did. As far as I can gather, he used something that would cause pain when the horse offered an unwanted behaviour, combined with something which would make it more difficult/impossible for the horse to get away in the first place. He used force and pain to flood the horse with the stimulus (bridle, hand/saddlepad). Having watched the highly edited video we are led to believe that the horse eventually submitted, having tried and exhausted every other option. 

I just don't understand _why_ he used those methods, when countless people (some of whom are on here) have achieved the same end result through time, patience and perseverance, and left the horses a lot better off mentally than I feel pat did. 

New-here



			I can't remember who said it or when it was said, but a few of you have talked about restraining terrified horses (not the exact words, but you get the idea). Now I'm sorry, but I don't see how you can come on here with all these negative comments about Parelli but like this? All I seen in this video was a horse forced in to submission. Did you see how tight he was pulling on that horses bit?
		
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I too cant believe how many people say they like endo spinks work  no Ill re-phrase that  I think most havent looked too far into the tap method he uses. I like the way he deals with rearers, when he doesn't use "the tap".

Having said that, the tap is an extreme method, used on extreme horses. I would be interested to follow horses he works with, as I am concerned that the psychological impact on the horse is very negative. However, if its a last resort option, then he does at the end of the day appear to provide results.

Endospink also appears to enjoy the showman aspect of his work. Look on his website - he also appears to charge $49.95 so that you can download his video. Remind you of anyone...?

TrecInWales 



			Obviously if you did not attend (quite a high percentage of the posts here are from such individuals) then you really cannot really add to this discussion in a negative or positive way.
		
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Ridiculous. People can add to a discussion about what is reported to have happened in a cosntructive way. Besides, all the reports say the same facts  its only peoples opinion of those facts that differ.

New-here



			If he doesn't back up, then the rythm in the rope causes the clip to smack their chin, yes
		
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. 

Other people practicing ground skills use a rope which has a knot (actually, its a loop which the rope threads through to attach it to the halter) to be the weight, not a metal clip, simply because they dont like a metal clip smacking the horse in the face. I use that, as well as a different ask for back/halt, for that very reason. And the metal clip hitting the horse's face wouldn't be half the issue it is, if all groundskills teachers actually taught people to use their presence, and energy to get things across, rather than waving a rope around wildly with no intention behind it.


Fburton



			Quote:



			Originally Posted by Naturally  
Andrew Maclean also said he thought this was an excellent practice.
		
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Knowing Andrew, it surprises me that he would favour the kind of flooding you describe (or any kind for that matter) over progressive desensitization, i.e. exposing a horse to something that's frightening little by little, being careful not to provoke a full-blown flight response, until he relaxes and accept what was initially feared. Can you remember where he said or wrote this?
		
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Forgive me that isnt a direct quote, but it is the spirit of what he said about it. It was at a lecture demo at Reaseheath college this year. Having been one of several students and members of staff (qualified, experienced etc) who discussed it afterwards, it wasnt just me who understood that to be what he meant, nor just me who disagreed with several things he said and did (he did a demo after the lecture), although there were good points too. He strikes me as a man who has got so caught up in the science of it that he has maybe neglected the feel of true horsemanship.

peteralfred



			horses often buck because they are in pain-have all these horses been worked up to check for that
		
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I too would be interested to know if the horse pat worked with was checked to be free from pain.


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## SirenaXVI (12 July 2010)

new-here said:



			What I don't understand is that everyone goes nuts when someone does something wrong, but no one is ready to applaud anyone when something is done correctly.
Lauren Barwick, a Parelli student, won Gold and Silver at the 2008 Paralympics. I don't see any massive threads relating to that?
Pat Parelli does something that you dont agree with and everyone's on here at the drop of a hat.
		
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Possibly because there was no horse abuse involved?  Of course we are going to go nuts if someone does something wrong and a horse suffers because of it, especially when that person holds themselves up as an expert!  There was just as much of an outcry against Rolkur.


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## muffinino (12 July 2010)

TrecInWales said:



			Due to the content and methods used I doubt a full(er) video will be made available until they publish the session in on of their DVDs with some sort of explanation/justification.

Unfortunately there were so few people at the Festival of the Horse that it's quite believable that there was no-one else there to take videos. The place was graveyard quiet bar those taking part in the competitions (and the Parelli lot of course, and there was not a lot of them until the Sunday).
		
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How very convenient.

So, we may get an explanation for why this horse was taken into an arena under lights to work on a very serious problem that was presumably causing him and the grooms problems in the much calmer, familier surroundings of home in order to find a quick cure and worked to the point where a vet would not allow him to be used the next day. But only if we pay for it.

Marvellous.


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## cefyl (12 July 2010)

The H&H news headlines today give the story of Michael Morrissey and the 3 months suspension for whip use.  Remember the Christine Wells case in Germany?  Blue tongue and Rolkur debate.  Why no "official" action against LP for what amounts to the same kind of "beating" to a part blind horse, ditto this supposed abuse of Catwalk in public.  Is it because they are deemed "natural horsemen / women" and therefore for the most part it is acceptable?  I do not dispute that much of their work and calmer methods are beneficial but also for a long time stories have been emerging about some other questionable means of bringing about submission to their equine subjects.

The video of Catwalk on days 1 / 2 and .... posted on youtube by the Parelli camp are dodgey, too much time lapse, the horse (as someone else has pointed out) at one clip looks doped, PP's body language and facial hue looks like he has just gone 10 rounds with Mike Tyson.  In the end they really have not achieved any more than most good horsemen would have done in the first place with just time and patience by getting part of a bridle on bit by bit, only they have used extreme force and a controller headcollar (which can be useful not doubt).


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## KS1 (12 July 2010)

Troylimbo1 said:



			Can I just highlight the section where you say you were 'appalled' that you saw Monty Roberts using a bucking strap in the same way as Pat Parelli.
He certainly DOES NOT put rope into the horses mouths - he actually ties it from the saddle to the head piece of the bridle so that the horse cannot lower his head to allow him to buck.
Mr Roberts is not even in the same league as this plonker (putting it mildly)[/QUOTE

The bucking strap is put into the horses mouth, it attaches fron the pommel of the saddle to the poll down to the horses mouth and across the horses top gum then back up the other side to the poll back to the pommel.  Monty Roberts even described how it fitted and how it worked.

As the horse goes to lower its head the strap tightens across the horses gum obviously causing pain, eventually the horse learns bucking causes the pain, oh and MR never removed the strap yet seemed pleased the rider could mount the horse and ride it. I'd have liked to see the horse ridden without the stap.

So yes MR clearly explained how the strap was fitted and it 100% went over the horses gum.
		
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## KS1 (12 July 2010)

m3gan said:



			Agree with the above, I have been to a demonstration by Monty Roberts and he certainly did not put anything in the horses mouth , it was  tied to the saddle!
		
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As I mentioned in my first post about this I clearly said the line went across the gum line, who said anything about it going in the horses mouth,, certainly not me,, your putting words in here that was never mentioned...

and though it may not cause damge as MR says it certainly causes pain. the only difference I see is that he ties the string to the back of the saddle where as at the demo I was at he tied it to the pommel.


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## posie_honey (12 July 2010)

i'm loving this thread - i'm not overly for or against different methods of horsemanship - i use what works for me and dismiss bits i don't like the sound of within all sorts of mothods and really work with what works with the horse in front of me - but i've been shocked by this simply becuase it appears to go against his general ethos - and loving the responses from T~I~C - how refreshing to get a level haeded and calm response - thank you

but was a gum strap actually used - its been questioned a lot - so anyone who was there - was one def used in this instance or is that just hear-say?


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## Hermosa (12 July 2010)

Go to the parelli youtube page and watch the video of Pat with Catwalk.


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## Amymay (12 July 2010)

Hermosa said:



			Go to the parelli youtube page and watch the video of Pat with Catwalk.
		
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Most of us have.  Have you a point??


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## Echo Bravo (12 July 2010)

I just wish the man and his wife would go back to America and stay there. To be honest the American way of life is far different from our way of life and we treat our animals differant too. My brother from California was very surprised to see 2 riders going pass my house on the road,seems they have Dude Ranches and Trails to ride on and the hay they feed, to me is straw that I'd bed my horses on.


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## Teddybully (12 July 2010)

cefyl said:



			Why no "official" action against LP for what amounts to the same kind of "beating" to a part blind horse, ditto this supposed abuse of Catwalk in public.  Is it because they are deemed "natural horsemen / women" and therefore for the most part it is acceptable?
		
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Yes and also because we don't 'understand' the methods and therefore we can't really know what is going on.

When I see a person hitting a horse I see a horse being abused.  Same as if I see someone hitting a child or a dog.  To then be told I don't 'understand' what I am seeing is extremely condescending. 

Why can the Parellis make their own rules up?

Just had a look at their site and anyone who can flog a carrot stick for £40 and a rope for £60 must know they are onto a good thing.  I see they have also trade marked the word 'Horsenality' (yes, your horses personality) it just goes on and on...


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## fburton (12 July 2010)

TrecInWales said:



			Due to the content and methods used I doubt a full(er) video will be made available until they publish the session in on of their DVDs with some sort of explanation/justification.

Unfortunately there were so few people at the Festival of the Horse that it's quite believable that there was no-one else there to take videos. The place was graveyard quiet bar those taking part in the competitions (and the Parelli lot of course, and there was not a lot of them until the Sunday).
		
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Thanks for the additional info which confirms what I suspected.  If there had been a large audience there and several people _had_ videoed it, I think a version would turn up on YouTube soon enough.


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## Aces_High (12 July 2010)

Godknows said:



			The horse had full blinkers covering his eyes I'm sure?? No wonder it went backwards

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They are called pacifiers.  A lot of horses in Australia have them on for trackwork and race in them.  Choisir who came over from Australia and won the Kings Stand and Golden Jubilee and was then 2nd in the July Cup raced in them.


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## fburton (12 July 2010)

Naturally said:



			I think you may agree with me when I say, if it is so complicated that only the most advanced of his students can understand it, then surely doing it in front of an audience of the general public isn't the most rational of moves.
		
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I agree (and with pretty much all of what you wrote).




			I just don't understand _why_ he used those methods, when countless people (some of whom are on here) have achieved the same end result through time, patience and perseverance, and left the horses a lot better off mentally than I feel pat did.
		
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... especially this. 




			Having said that, the tap is an extreme method, used on extreme horses. I would be interested to follow horses he works with, as I am concerned that the psychological impact on the horse is very negative. However, if its a last resort option, then he does at the end of the day appear to provide results.
		
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Yup, I don't like The Tap either. I am horrified by how many people have decided it's a neat trick to play on their own, non-problem horses, as evidenced by videos and comments posted to YouTube. However, I grudgingly accept that it may be useful _as a method of last resort_ in the hands of a professional - but that does not justify selling the details of the method to all and sundry who will use it for heaven knows what.




			Forgive me that isn&#8217;t a direct quote, but it is the spirit of what he said about it. It was at a lecture demo at Reaseheath college this year. Having been one of several students and members of staff (qualified, experienced etc) who discussed it afterwards, it wasn&#8217;t just me who understood that to be what he meant, nor just me who disagreed with several things he said and did (he did a demo after the lecture), although there were good points too. He strikes me as a man who has got so caught up in the science of it that he has maybe neglected the &#8220;feel&#8221; of true horsemanship.
		
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No problem - thanks for the clarification. I still can't help feeling Andrew's view on this was miscommunicated. I know he recommends strongly against treatment that leads to learned helplessness, so it seems odd that he should promote use of flooding - especially the wheat-box! I understand what you're getting at in your last sentence though.


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## talkinghorse (12 July 2010)

ester said:



			pretty sure I have seen youtube vids with monty using the leg tie technique to break horses in &#8230;
		
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Monty Roberts would never and has never tied up a horse's leg. This, sacking out and swinging from a post, was one of the practices that he disagreed with his father about. 

When the film the Horse Whisperer was being made, he withdrew his support when the director insisted that the hero, whose character Nicholas Evans had developed after working with Monty, was required in the script to tie up a horse's leg and lay the horse down.

Monty will not inflict discomfort on a horse to get him to act out a behaviour he wants. He will use a buckstopper in very rare and extreme cases, where a bucking horse is about to lose its life or kill someone else. In this case Monty fits the buck stopper, it is loose, the horse inflicts the pressure momentarily if it tries to buck. He gives a very full explanation of how it works in _ From My Hands to Yours._

Monty dedicates his time to taking violence out of the lives of people and horses. The money he raises goes into an eductional charity to help people learn a none violent way to co-exist with their horse. 

Monty's methods set clear boundaries for behaviour and teach clear methods to achieve them. Violence (excessive use of force to initiate or respond to a behaviour) is never permitted. I can't find similar things to say about Parelli as I haven't studied it.

All I have seen indicates that if the horse_ exhibits _an unacceptable behaviour Monty's methods would permit punishment (tugging the rope, for example) but do not permit any form of violent assault on the horse in order to get him to _achieve _a behaviour. I have seen both Pat and Linda Parelli hit horses to get the behaviour they want. That to me, as a Monty Roberts _student_ and _observer of Parelli_, is the difference that makes me reject Parelli and be the proud holder of the Monty Roberts Preliminary Certificate of Horsemanship.

Monty must be so sad that a former student is now using the methods his father used, that Monty abhors and has fought to change.


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## Crackerz (12 July 2010)

I keep coming back to this post, i feel compelled to reply, but not entirely sure what to say?

I'm sickened. Totally sickened. A number of my friends witnessed around 2 hours of the demo before having to leave through protest, with a young girl in tears after witnessing a clearly upset horse. Great education for impressionable people hey..... 

Those patronising people that have said 'you can't see what we see' - Get stuffed. I've dealt with many a horse/pony labelled dangerous/evil/bolshy without resorting to pain. 

Simply taking in everything a horse does, every little movement around you, their body language within a herd, and everything like that. I could spend hours learning from my horses from watching them in a herd - i've learnt more from that than i could a DVD...




Edited to add.... i have a dislike for Monty too, after witnessing a buckstopper (which DOES go across the gum) in a demo 10/11 years ago. It ended up very bloody and upset many people. Along with a horse he taught to load 'within a demo'. Yeh right, he'd been working with it for over an hour before and on and off the lorry - it was my friends pony!!!


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## Blue2006 (12 July 2010)

I went to Stonleigh Park on Saturday with a friend and we attended the Parelli Demo in the evening. There was a brief discussion about what had happened with Robert Whittaker's horse but in very general terms but I am relieved I did not witness what went on.  With regard to Parelli himself I wanted to walk out within five minutes of him walking in the arena.  As far as I was concerned it was the cult of Parelli and it was more about massaging his ego than what was being demonstrated.    Not impressed by the guy at all and lets face it, if we all carried a lunge whip every time we were with our horses on the ground, I think we would pretty much get them to do what we wanted!!  Absolute rubbish people, save your money.


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## spaniel (12 July 2010)

cefyl said:



			The H&H news headlines today give the story of Michael Morrissey and the 3 months suspension for whip use.  Remember the Christine Wells case in Germany?  Blue tongue and Rolkur debate.  Why no "official" action against LP for what amounts to the same kind of "beating" to a part blind horse, ditto this supposed abuse of Catwalk in public.  Is it because they are deemed "natural horsemen / women" and therefore for the most part it is acceptable? ).
		
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Most likely because they are 'corporations' and have the ability/funds to drag anyone who questions them through the Courts.  An individual is much less likely to do that so is the easier target.


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## Amymay (12 July 2010)

A number of my friends witnessed around 2 hours of the demo before having to leave through protest
		
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Did you speak to any officials at the time about your concerns Crackerz??


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## R2R (12 July 2010)

I have scanned through this thread and am appalled by what seems to have gone on. 

I think the saying goes:

Tell a gelding, ask a mare, and discuss with a stallion 

Any stallion I have met has always had to have a discussion and come to his own conclusions about things. I feel terrible for RWs poor stallion and question why common sense hasnt been used in this instance. 

Not really sure what to say other than it sounds like there are reasons far beyond Parelli for Catwalks behaviour  as in far deeper routed. 

Poor pony.


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## Crackerz (12 July 2010)

I wasn't there, and i believe they didn't, no. More interested in taking the childs mind off things i guess!


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## Amymay (12 July 2010)

Crackerz said:



			I wasn't there, and i believe they didn't, no. More interested in taking the childs mind off things i guess!
		
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That's a real shame, because often is the immediate action that gets positive responses.


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## Crackerz (12 July 2010)

amymay said:



			That's a real shame, because often is the immediate action that gets positive responses.
		
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Very true. I may prompt them to complain though?


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## KS1 (12 July 2010)

I loved the wording "Parelli Police" made by Tongue in Cheek, it does sum these people up perfectly. I have in the past put forward a view that went against their principles and got a right ear bashing.

There is a lot that I have learned through PNH that has helped me understand my horses better and changed myself for the better but there are issues that I have not agreed with and when questioned I have never received a clear and explanatory reply.

I ponder on "Why can't anyone give me a good answer to my questions". 

Off topic but bear with me here...


When the Succes was released I thought it was a waste of money and sold all but two of the DVD's,. Then the patterns came out, someone during a workshop asked "Do you need to know the 7 games to play the patterns" The answer was no...

At Stoneleigh on Friday I mentioned this to one of the 3*Instructors who told me that Pat originally thought people would learn the 7 games through playing the patterns but then realised he was wrong which was one reason why the new 1-4 level were released.

Why then was this not admitted to us publically?

So why am I sayign this....?

What I would like to know is when things go smoothly or not Pat, Linda, the team and a high % of parelli Students will not admit to wrong doings. They come across as thinking everything they do is right when it is a known fact that everything in todays world has flaws.

I still haven't posted on the Savvy Site or FB as I know I will get an ear bashing and I can't be bothered with it.

I also mind found in the past I have been attacked on H&H for following PNH so for  along time avoided posting on any topic relating to PNH.

However this long and interesting thread is a joy to read and join in.

Keep the posts flowing and if anyone has any further info on Catwalk I'd love to read about it.


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## Hovis_and_SidsMum (12 July 2010)

I have been holding off posting on this thread but have decided to add my two penneth worth.
I didn't see the demo in question as I didn't attend the event but from eye witness accounts it sounds horrific.
After reading all the arguements here i am not going to go into the fact it sounds like totally over the top horse cruelty.  
My bigger concern is the message it and other Parelli demos give novice horse owners.  I have no doubt that around the world methods that look just as cruel are used with great success - but they are used by experienced and gifted horsement and women.  Not someone who has paid their £X to watch a demo and then who goes home and thinks "I'll have a crack at that with my slightly fidgety horse".
Think it doesn't happen?  Think again.  I was on a yard where a totally inexperienced and out and out novice bought a ex racer which she never even saw ridden.  The horse was totally loopy - to the extent of having no thought for its own saftey let alone anyone around it. 
Cue one trip to a two day parelli course later and I haven't enough words to describe the sort of thing that went on.
Needless to say none of it worked, my husband had to rescue the owner from being nearly killed by the horse going demented in its stable and then shortly after the owner wa  sinjured by said horse.  It was sold to supposedly another "parelli" home where no doubt they continued to bash the remains of its brains out with an orange stick.
I don't agree in any way with what was described as happening on friday night but maybe I am slightly squeamish about seeing a stressed and unhappy horse.  Maybe in extreme case these methods have their place.  But that place is NOT in front of a crowd of impressionable and uneducated members of the public.


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## amandap (12 July 2010)

The accounts of PP working with Catwalk at this Demo sound horrific and imo unacceptable.

To change tack slightly I've been pondering 'owner' resonsibility in this instance.
I expect most of us have been in a situation when we were unhappy with how a 'professional' was dealing with our horse and gaining the courage to speak out and stop things is not always straightforward.
I've been wondering what the Whittikers thinking about all this is and whether they wished to call a halt to the Demo but felt unable due to unknown constraints or whether they found it acceptable???

I think we should all learn from this that we must try and find the courage to speak out for our horses when we feel they are being treated unfairly, roughly etc. etc.
I of course have no idea what the Whittikers were thinking or feeling but I hope I would have had the courage to shout stop if I were the owner/carer in this re told scenario.

It is my view that in the end the owner/carer is ultimately responsible for the horses care and training as well as it's mental welbeing so I think we must stop just putting up with stuff we believe is wrong or detrimental to our horses just because someone 'knows better' or is more experienced etc.


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## SophieRIDSH (12 July 2010)

johnrobert said:



			I just wish the man and his wife would go back to America and stay there. To be honest the American way of life is far different from our way of life and we treat our animals differant too. My brother from California was very surprised to see 2 riders going pass my house on the road,seems they have Dude Ranches and Trails to ride on and the hay they feed, to me is straw that I'd bed my horses on.
		
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LOL, CA is a big and varied state, in a very big and varied country.  And in America we have many different styles of riding and training, some much better than others.  

The Parellies are certainly NOT universally admired here.  PLEASE do not lump all American horsenem with them.


Sigh  they are going to have a big presence at the WEG


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## toffeesmarty (12 July 2010)

SophieRIDSH said:



			Sigh  they are going to have a big presence at the WEG 

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Just goes to prove how money can get you anywhere. And we know they are making far too much money


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## brighteyes (12 July 2010)

Is anyone going to have a go at Catwalk's groom/s about the 'not nice' methods they used to get his bridle on behind the scenes?

(Daily, for seven weeks?)


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## Crackerz (12 July 2010)

do we know what these methods are? 

Can't imagine them having much luck pinning a big horse down to get a bridle on... (assuming that's what's being suggested?)


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## martlin (12 July 2010)

brighteyes said:



			Is anyone going to have a go at Catwalk's groom/s about the 'not nice' methods they used to get his bridle on behind the scenes?

(Daily, for seven weeks?)
		
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I haven't got involved in the discussion here, I don't think I have the strength atm, but have to respond to this.

The difference with Catwalk's groom is, we can hardly have a go as we don't know what the 'not nice' techniques are/were, if any...


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## muffinino (12 July 2010)

brighteyes said:



			Is anyone going to have a go at Catwalk's groom/s about the 'not nice' methods they used to get his bridle on behind the scenes?

(Daily, for seven weeks?)
		
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Depends on what methods they used, I suppose. We don't know at the moment, not even hearsay, so have nothing to have a go at.


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## Hermosa (12 July 2010)

Go to the parelli page onYou Tube and watch Pat Parelli with Catwalk


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## muffinino (12 July 2010)

Hermosa said:



			Go to the parelli page onYou Tube and watch Pat Parelli with Catwalk
		
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Is there an echo in here?

I have. Unfortunately, it only shows 9 seconds of the first session.


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## PolarSkye (12 July 2010)

Weezy said:



			I will continue to fail to understand why people think it is a great idea to subject their horses to these spectacles - taking a horse out of his safe environment, subjecting them to a new handler, lights, music, crowds, and then persisting in trying to teach it something new just goes beyond my comprehension.

If you have a problem then get someone out, whether that be a nagsman or a NH fanatic or anything in between, and work on the horse in the environment where you, the owner/rider, will have to carry out whatever it is you are trying to improve.

The whole *doing it for the audience* thing will never sit well with me.
		
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Yes, it smacks too much of "circus" to me . . . I don't necessarily disapprove of NH . . . nor do I think all Parelli followers are either brainwashed or cruel . . . but I don't really see the need to turn teaching my horse something into a spectacle . . . nor do I really understand why or how there can only be ONE way to develop a loving, trusting bond with your horse.  

Kali will follow me all over the school, the yard and his paddock without a leadrope on . . . changing direction when I do and stopping when I stop . . . he does it because he trusts me, not because I've ever introduced him to a stick with a rope on the end, or because I've played games with him.  I've simply been firm but fair with him . . . given him time to understand what I'm asking him to do . . . and put down some pretty clear boundaries (not dragging me all over the yard being one of them).  

Just because my methods aren't NH (or Parelli) doesn't mean they're wrong . . . but on the flip side, if some Parelli (or NH) practioners get results with their own horses, that's fine too.

To me, it's more about common sense . . . why the need to package and commercialize it?

P


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## JenJ (12 July 2010)

brighteyes said:



			Is anyone going to have a go at Catwalk's groom/s about the 'not nice' methods they used to get his bridle on behind the scenes?

(Daily, for seven weeks?)
		
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But the groom is not packaging it as natural horsemanship, giving demonstrations of it to the public, and charging a fortune. They admit that it's 'not nice' and are looking for a solution, unlike PP who proclaims his way *is* the solution.


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## toffeesmarty (12 July 2010)

This thread has made it across the Atlantic:
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=264652


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## Munchkin (12 July 2010)

brighteyes said:



			Is anyone going to have a go at Catwalk's groom/s about the 'not nice' methods they used to get his bridle on behind the scenes?

(Daily, for seven weeks?)
		
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Perhaps, if a) I knew what those methods were, b) they had performed these methods for the sake of entertainment in front of a crowd of people who had paid to see them and c) if they were trying to ram down my throat the idea that if I didn't do things the way they did it made me less of a person as a result.

The difference, I think, is that RW and his grooms described their bridling efforts as "not nice" whereas Parelli describes his as "natural horsemanship" which clearly it's not.


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## PolarSkye (12 July 2010)

_Naturally:  "I think, as others have said, that several/many/most of us understand the mechanics and psychology of what he did. As far as I can gather, he used something that would cause pain when the horse offered an unwanted behaviour, combined with something which would make it more difficult/impossible for the horse to get away in the first place. He used force and pain to flood the horse with the stimulus (bridle, hand/saddlepad). Having watched the highly edited video we are led to believe that the horse eventually submitted, having tried and exhausted every other option. 

I just don't understand why he used those methods, when countless people (some of whom are on here) have achieved the same end result through time, patience and perseverance, and left the horses a lot better off mentally than I feel pat did."_

WHY?  Because he couldn't use time, patience and perseverance (over months possibly) in an arena in front of a paying audience.  It's called either "instant gratification" or "show business" depending on how cynical you are feeling.

P


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## galaxy (12 July 2010)

Just wanted to add my thoughts after having read the entire thread....

Tieing a horses leg up IMO is never right.  Even if you try and understand the "reason" behind it....  That being that it makes the horse think it's going to die.  Oh my goodness!!!!  How can ANYONE think this is right?  Comparing that to someone holding a horses leg up so they can oil the feet i totally different.  If they still couldn't do it (lets face it, if someone had "just held up Catwalks leg" to put his bridle on they wouldn't have suceeded would they!)  I wouldn't tie my horses leg up to put hoof oil on!

I have and have used a commanche calmer.  I use it as a twitch (very very rarely, I can't even remember the last time I used it), as it is easier to use that a traditional one.  I have NEVER marked my horses gum using one.  If that happened, they were using it incorrectly.  If there were putting their entire body weight on it they certainly were!   You only have to use gently pressure on it for it to have the desired effect.  (FYI you can buy commanche halters in most tack shops and in most of the well known magazines)

I have known horses used in MR demos (although not really a follower myself.  I'm more common sense!), and NONE of them were worked with before the demo!  They are put around a round pen a few hours before by a 3rd party to be checked over thoroughly by a vet.

Many years ago my old instructor put a buck stop on my pony who would turn him inseide out.  It NEVER caused him any damage whatsoever.  Not a mark on him, and he learnt very quickly not to buck, an he never did it again.  They are not barbaric in any way.


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## fburton (12 July 2010)

muffinino said:



			Depends on what methods they used, I suppose. We don't know at the moment, not even hearsay, so have nothing to have a go at.
		
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When TrecInWales wrote "you would not like the techniques grooms use to get a bridle on the horse..." I assumed he/she had inside knowldedge. TrecInWales, could you clarify please?


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## muffinino (12 July 2010)

fburton said:



			When TrecInWales wrote "you would not like the techniques grooms use to get a bridle on the horse..." I assumed he/she had inside knowldedge. TrecInWales, could you clarify please?
		
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Good point. Although TrecInWales may be wary of being defamatory if what they say is untrue.

Having said that, as others have pointed out, at least RW and his grooms have admitted that the methods are ''not nice'' and are not suggesting that it is a solution to the problem nor using their methods in a demo.


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## fburton (12 July 2010)

JenJ said:



			But the groom is not packaging it as natural horsemanship, giving demonstrations of it to the public, and charging a fortune. They admit that it's 'not nice' and are looking for a solution, unlike PP who proclaims his way *is* the solution.
		
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To be fair, I'm not sure that he does do that _himself_ - although one would be forgiven for getting the impression "Parelli" is the solution from his _followers_. A subtle difference.


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## brighteyes (12 July 2010)

martlin said:



			I haven't got involved in the discussion here, I don't think I have the strength atm, but have to respond to this.

The difference with Catwalk's groom is, we can hardly have a go as we don't know what the 'not nice' techniques are/were, if any...
		
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We usually see things along the same lines - if there was no real trouble, why was the horse in there to have the bridling problem sorted in the first place?


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## Munchkin (12 July 2010)

brighteyes said:



			We usually see things along the same lines - if there was no real trouble, why was the horse in there to have the bridling problem sorted in the first place?
		
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Not even sure I should say that much - deleted


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## Caledonia (12 July 2010)

Hermosa said:



			Go to the parelli page onYou Tube and watch Pat Parelli with Catwalk
		
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I did. In the second segment, I really didn't like the way he stuck his hand into the horse's mouth where the gumline had been, and the horse's ensuing reaction.


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## fburton (12 July 2010)

Caledonia said:



			I did. In the second segment, I really didn't like the way he stuck his hand into the horse's mouth where the gumline had been, and the horse's ensuing reaction.
		
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Possibly to elicit "licking and chewing"?


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## brighteyes (12 July 2010)

Munchkin said:



			Not even sure I should say that much - deleted
		
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What sort of a reply is that?  Your personal, inside, first-hand knowledge likely to get you into hot water or something?  

I was just asking the question.  With no hidden agenda.


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## baymareb (12 July 2010)

new-here said:



			First of all, you mention the metal clip. That is used after the horse has been asked a few times to back up. If he doesn't back up, then the rythm in the rope causes the clip to smack their chin, yes. But look at it this way .. when another horse asks your horse to back up, it will put it ears back and then either bite or kick. That is essentially what the smack of the clip is - a horse bite.
		
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This is one of my main objections to all this Parelli nonsense.  My horse knows darn well that I'm not a horse.  How stupid do these people think horses are, anyway?  I am not training my horse by pretending to be a horse - I am training my horse by giving clear cues to her so she can respond accordingly.  And if you train a horse to back up by twirling ropes about their head, if someone who handles the horse in the usual way tries to work with them, both the horse and the handler are hopelessly confused.

In addition, there is so much contradiction in this stuff.  Ropes are tossed about and the horse is expected to stand nicely and not be alarmed but a rope attached to the ubiquitous rope halter is flipped about and the horse is supposed to back up.  Which is it?  Stand or move?

The horse is supposed to know how to "move away from pressure" but it is also supposed to stand like a rock when you wave tarps at it.  However, it's supposed to move if you wave a plastic bag on a stick.  Again, which is it?

And of course, no one can explain any of it because those doing it are "higher up in the program" (sounds like Amway for heaven's sake) so you have to take it on faith that it all makes sense.

I will no doubt be told that I have it all wrong and that I don't understand any of it because I haven't done it.  But my horse is just fine without it all and has the added benefit of understanding when someone other than me is working with her.


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## Shysmum (12 July 2010)

I have forwarded a copy of this thread to WHW, who will I am sure will be very interested. sm x


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## Munchkin (12 July 2010)

brighteyes - I know you were being ironic but... yes!

I didn't realise I couldn't delete the post.


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## flash1 (12 July 2010)

I contacted whw about the last linda parrelli video with the half blind horse, I am afraid I never heard anything from it.


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## Katikins (12 July 2010)

I only read the first page in that US thread but this bit made me laugh outloud:

'Nooooo, we just go straight to "he's misbehaving so let's have Pat Pepperoni beat the **** out of him"'

I shall now refer to PP as Pat Pepperoni!!  HAHA


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## Katikins (12 July 2010)

On another note, has anybody sent this to Fugly as that has a huge following? *tootles off to send an email*


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## brighteyes (12 July 2010)

Munchkin said:



			Perhaps, if a) I knew what those methods were, b) they had performed these methods for the sake of entertainment in front of a crowd of people who had paid to see them and c) if they were trying to ram down my throat the idea that if I didn't do things the way they did it made me less of a person as a result.

The difference, I think, is that RW and his grooms described their bridling efforts as "not nice" whereas Parelli describes his as "natural horsemanship" which clearly it's not.
		
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It could well be argued that ANY form of horsemanship is not natural.  From breeding them to types and colours to the stabling and riding.  

I still want to see _the whole session_unedited and in close up, slow motion and every other sort of under the microscope angle with commentary by PP as to what is going on and why.  Then I can make my own mind up.

As for the vet saying the horse was unfit to compete due to mouth injury, well, that could just be a politically correct answer.  I'm wondering if the vet checks every showjumper's mouth for injury after each round.  Some of the mouthpieces around and the attached fixings are easily capable of serious damage.

Having heard the above (roughly) said about the video

*(PP) nearly kicks him (the horse) in the head

*the horse is doped because it is dangling (someone is doping my horse post work every day without me noticing then!)

*and the horse still has the gum line in in the stable

(No, it was a thin line through the mouth to simulate the bit, which was part of the issue and to which a bit was attached (and held up) to simulate the weight of the bit but not induce the teeth-clanging effect in taking the bridle on and off)

it's no surprise all sorts of conclusions are being drawn.


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## Munchkin (12 July 2010)

brighteyes said:



			It could well be argued that ANY form of horsemanship is not natural.  From breeding them to types and colours to the stabling and riding.
		
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Totally agree. But this is called Parelli *Natural Horsemanship.*




			I still want to see _the whole session_unedited and in close up, slow motion and every other sort of under the microscope angle with commentary by PP as to what is going on and why.  Then I can make my own mind up.
		
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Ditto. However I'm confused as to why this is being kept from public view, and why the need was felt to post a disclaimer in case anyone posted it on YouTube.  It arouses suspicion.




			As for the vet saying the horse was unfit to compete due to mouth injury, well, that could just be a politically correct answer.  I'm wondering if the vet checks every showjumper's mouth for injury after each round.  Some of the mouthpieces around and the attached fixings are easily capable of serious damage.
		
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Absolutely. However, the injury of the horse goes against everything Parelli preaches.




			Having heard the above (roughly) said about the video

*(PP) nearly kicks him (the horse) in the head

*the horse is doped because it is dangling (someone is doping my horse post work every day without me noticing then!)

*and the horse still has the gum line in in the stable

(No, it was a thin line through the mouth to simulate the bit, which was part of the issue and to which a bit was attached (and held up) to simulate the weight of the bit but not induce the teeth-clanging effect in taking the bridle on and off)
		
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I have never taken issue with anything seen in the [edited] video. Nor do I think that he kicked the horse in the head. As for doping it - it was probably just exhausted from the previous night's events. We'll never know.




			it's no surprise all sorts of conclusions are being drawn.
		
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Quite. You'd think they'd post damn the video and prove us all wrong, eh?


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## Shysmum (12 July 2010)

I have also forwarded it to the RSPCA Inspectorate, with an explanation that there was alleged horse abuse, an alleged injury to the horse, allegedly confirmed by a vet, non-action by those in charge of the event,  and that the whole thing was videoed. I am sure that with the outrage being expressed, an outcome WILL be achieved. Does anyone know who the vet was ?  Showjumpers and Parelli are NOT above the law in this country. 

I implore the peeps that witnessed this abuse to contact the RSPCA and WHW, as they will need to take statements from you. 

sm x


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## Natch (12 July 2010)

fburton said:



			No problem - thanks for the clarification. I still can't help feeling Andrew's view on this was miscommunicated. I know he recommends strongly against treatment that leads to learned helplessness, so it seems odd that he should promote use of flooding - especially the wheat-box! I understand what you're getting at in your last sentence though.
		
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Thats what I found so odd about it! I don't think he mentioned learnt helplessness per se, because I was waiting to hear those words and for him to condemn it. The wedging a horse in a box with grain so that only his head is poking out then exposing them to high levels of a frightening stimulus method was refered to as flooding, and it was implied that it was an acceptable, even recommendable type of horse training.  To me that is a plain and simple example of learnt helplessness.

Perhaps there was a communication error at this lecture demo though - I hope so. I will dig out my notes, I think I still have them somewhere - it would be interesting to compare them to what you experienced/know of him.


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## Shysmum (12 July 2010)

http://www.facebook.com/search/?q=pat+parelli&o=2048&init=ffs#!/OfficialPatParelli

Pat Parelli's facebook page. Let's let him know how we feel ! 

sm x


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## flash1 (12 July 2010)

shysmum said:



			I have also forwarded it to the RSPCA Inspectorate, with an explanation that there was alleged horse abuse, an alleged injury to the horse, allegedly confirmed by a vet, non-action by those in charge of the event,  and that the whole thing was videoed. I am sure that with the outrage being expressed, an outcome WILL be achieved. Does anyone know who the vet was ?  Showjumpers and Parelli are NOT above the law in this country. 

I implore the peeps that witnessed this abuse to contact the RSPCA and WHW, as they will need to take statements from you. 

sm x
		
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Well done for doing that, hope something comes of it.


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## Rhandir (12 July 2010)

Has anyone seen Mr P's Facebook ... http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=406092659063&comments .. the comments from his disciples are very interesting, makes very interesting reading


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## Shysmum (12 July 2010)

nothing can be done if witnesses don't contact the RSPCA....


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## martlin (12 July 2010)

brighteyes said:



			We usually see things along the same lines - if there was no real trouble, why was the horse in there to have the bridling problem sorted in the first place?
		
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The truth is, I don't know - RW won't admit what 'not nice' ways they've used and I haven't the inside knowledge to find out, however, I have had horses with extreme bridling issues and I would never go about sorting them in the way PP (allegedly) has done.
It seems to me that 7 weeks is very little time to establish the reasons and the pattern of behaviour behind Catwalk's issues, never mind 'curing' them. The horse has obviously been ridden, so one can assume that it is possible to put a bridle on him, one can hardly imagine tying it down every day in order to tack it up...
Anyway, I might not be the best person to ask as I might not be objective - I don't have much time for PP or RW for that matter.


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## fburton (12 July 2010)

Naturally said:



			Thats what I found so odd about it! I don't think he mentioned learnt helplessness per se, because I was waiting to hear those words and for him to condemn it. The wedging a horse in a box with grain so that only his head is poking out then exposing them to high levels of a frightening stimulus method was refered to as flooding, and it was implied that it was an acceptable, even recommendable type of horse training.  To me that is a plain and simple example of learnt helplessness.
		
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Agree - it all sounds rather odd!




			Perhaps there was a communication error at this lecture demo though - I hope so. I will dig out my notes, I think I still have them somewhere - it would be interesting to compare them to what you experienced/know of him.
		
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I've met and 'talked horses' with him a few times, over here and in Dublin at the 2008 International Society for Equitation Science meeting. Also corresponded to some extent because we were co-authors on a paper with Paul McGreevy who I know rather better. I'll have another look in his books - "The Truth About Horses" and "Equitation Science" - to see what he says about flooding.


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## brighteyes (12 July 2010)

Munchkin said:



			Totally agree. But this is called Parelli *Natural Horsemanship.*



Ditto. However I'm confused as to why this is being kept from public view, and why the need was felt to post a disclaimer in case anyone posted it on YouTube.  It arouses suspicion.



Absolutely. However, the injury of the horse goes against everything Parelli preaches.



I have never taken issue with anything seen in the [edited] video. Nor do I think that he kicked the horse in the head. As for doping it - it was probably just exhausted from the previous night's events. We'll never know.



Quite. You'd think they'd post damn the video and prove us all wrong, eh? 

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Damned if you do, damned if you don't!


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## angelish (12 July 2010)

i have just had a look at the link to parelli facebook page 

i don't wish to upset any followers as im sure there are some normal sensible people some were among you all.
iv'e never had a great interest in parelli ,negatively or other wise but i have to say this post as well as the facebook page has changed my mind.

i now think they are all completely barking mad !!!
weather it is good for the horse or not the people on there are behaving like they belong to some sort of cult 
are they all brainwashed or something ,if i am unlucky enough to bump into a parelli follower in future outings i shall be running for the hills


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## Laafet (12 July 2010)

Have nothing really to add but am not surprised that PP has gone extreme. Never liked the guy or his methods. As for how RW usually bridle the horse, I have in the past seen horses that rarely have their bridle taken off, usually the noseband and reins are taken off when the horse is left overnight. So would not be surprised if this is what happens. Although that is just a suggestion. 
In Oz I saw horses tied up with no water or food and hobbled and thrown, it is a very backward way of going about desensitising a horse. When I got my horse 4 years ago he had never worn a headcollar and was very wild, slowly he has got used to being handled, tied up, the hose and the farrier etc, now he is very good. He did get chosen for a MR show as a spooky horse a few years back but I felt that it had not done him much good and they worked him hard all day before the evening performance so even though MR never touched him before the show, he had been watching him all day and his staff had well and truly worn him out. They also admitted to having chosen him for the performance due to his 'extreme reactions' although they did not believe he was truly spooky.


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## 3Beasties (12 July 2010)

Just so I don't have to go back through tons of pages has anyone found a video of the actual session (not the 12 seconds that was posted earlier)?


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## Teddybully (12 July 2010)

Rhandir said:



			Has anyone seen Mr P's Facebook ... http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=406092659063&comments .. the comments from his disciples are very interesting, makes very interesting reading 

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'..upset at what they think they saw...'

'...for those that don't understand..'

Funny how they are all pleading for them to put it on a DVD! That's probably the last thing they want to do..


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## flash1 (12 July 2010)

They may well put some of it on a dvd but you will have to pay about £300 for it!


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## Teddybully (12 July 2010)

At least flash1!!

Sorry if this has been posted before but the comments are hilarious really

http://linda.parellinaturalhorsetra...elli-update-from-the-past-few-weeks/#comments


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## Shysmum (12 July 2010)

surely even THEY wouldn't be that arrogant or stupid - oh wait, sorry. Money to be made.

Just looked at the link ^^^ Good God Above.


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## Bramley (12 July 2010)

amandap said:



			The accounts of PP working with Catwalk at this Demo sound horrific and imo unacceptable.

To change tack slightly I've been pondering 'owner' resonsibility in this instance.
I expect most of us have been in a situation when we were unhappy with how a 'professional' was dealing with our horse and gaining the courage to speak out and stop things is not always straightforward.
I've been wondering what the Whittikers thinking about all this is and whether they wished to call a halt to the Demo but felt unable due to unknown constraints or whether they found it acceptable???

I think we should all learn from this that we must try and find the courage to speak out for our horses when we feel they are being treated unfairly, roughly etc. etc.
I of course have no idea what the Whittikers were thinking or feeling but I hope I would have had the courage to shout stop if I were the owner/carer in this re told scenario.

It is my view that in the end the owner/carer is ultimately responsible for the horses care and training as well as it's mental welbeing so I think we must stop just putting up with stuff we believe is wrong or detrimental to our horses just because someone 'knows better' or is more experienced etc.
		
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I asked Robert Wittacker directly at the demo as the poor horse came out if this was acceptable. He said he didn't have to talk to me but when i pressed him for an answer he said it was acceptable  by him.


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## ponydentist (12 July 2010)

Shysmum

Please let the RSPCA know that I will gladly be a witness to the whole event as I WAS THERE......one of THREE people on this whole thread who were. The rest of you were not. I also have an advantage in that I witnessed some of the following days sessions. 

I have no connection in any shape or form with Parelli Natural Horsemanship enterprize.

Pm me if you require my address and contact details


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## PPF&Proud (12 July 2010)

Do you Seriously think that if it was as easy as taking the bridle to bits or using a few treats/syrup that Robert Whittaker and his team of grooms wouldn't have sorted it by now?  It has taken 8 weeks of trying and failing and now they have asked for help.  Maybe they should have waited until the horse killed someone?  

Pat Parelli has dealt with horses which have killed people before.  Have you?  Would you?  If someone said "my horse won't be bridled/saddled/go in trailer/stand for farrier/have rug on .... and he killed the last person who tried - can you help me"  What would you say?  Oh, give him a few treats, use syrup on the bit, take the bridle to bits, sedate him .....

Parelli has helped thousands of horses, maybe tens of thousands, spending most of his adult life helping horses and people.  How many have you  helped?  He has hundreds of thousands of followers all over the world - are they all beginners, gullible or brainwashed?  

I am neither gullible nor a beginner, having hunted in Ireland and with the Belvoir since a child, competed all over the country with several different horses, most of which I broke in myself - until I met a horse that I couldn't deal with.  He bolted at the drop of a hat, endagering his own life as well as mine and others (over a railway line once).  NO one would or could help me, and I asked lots and lots of people.  Parelli turned us around and after a while I could do anything with him - more than I'd ever achieved with a horse.

If Pat had cured this horse behind the scenes, he would be accused of hypocrisy.  If it had been an easier horse he would have been accused of working with it beforehand.  He couldn't win with some people, really.  And as for saying that he kicked the horse in the head in the short video clip ..... well there are none so blind as those who won't see.

It is interesting to note that Robert Whittaker is continuing to leave Catwalk with Pat and his team so he can continue to improve.  Or is he stupid/brain washed/a beginner/gullible too?

The equipment is nowhere near as expensive as some of the bits and gadgets I used to own (which failed to work) for my difficult horse.  If they make money out of their products, they deserve to.

I just WISH that the people who slag a master horseman from the safety of their sofas could have got hold of that horse and attempted to bridle him.  But maybe not.


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## Shysmum (12 July 2010)

if a horse has actually killed someone, surely it is so disturbed it should be PTS ? What's to say it won't rebel in the future and attack the new owner ? I'm totally stunned.


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## LMR (12 July 2010)

PPF&Proud said:



			Do you Seriously think that if it was as easy as taking the bridle to bits or using a few treats/syrup that Robert Whittaker and his team of grooms wouldn't have sorted it by now?  It has taken 8 weeks of trying and failing and now they have asked for help.  Maybe they should have waited until the horse killed someone?  

Pat Parelli has dealt with horses which have killed people before.  Have you?  Would you?  If someone said "my horse won't be bridled/saddled/go in trailer/stand for farrier/have rug on .... and he killed the last person who tried - can you help me"  What would you say?  Oh, give him a few treats, use syrup on the bit, take the bridle to bits, sedate him .....

Parelli has helped thousands of horses, maybe tens of thousands, spending most of his adult life helping horses and people.  How many have you  helped?  He has hundreds of thousands of followers all over the world - are they all beginners, gullible or brainwashed?  

I am neither gullible nor a beginner, having hunted in Ireland and with the Belvoir since a child, competed all over the country with several different horses, most of which I broke in myself - until I met a horse that I couldn't deal with.  He bolted at the drop of a hat, endagering his own life as well as mine and others (over a railway line once).  NO one would or could help me, and I asked lots and lots of people.  Parelli turned us around and after a while I could do anything with him - more than I'd ever achieved with a horse.

If Pat had cured this horse behind the scenes, he would be accused of hypocrisy.  If it had been an easier horse he would have been accused of working with it beforehand.  He couldn't win with some people, really.  And as for saying that he kicked the horse in the head in the short video clip ..... well there are none so blind as those who won't see.

It is interesting to note that Robert Whittaker is continuing to leave Catwalk with Pat and his team so he can continue to improve.  Or is he stupid/brain washed/a beginner/gullible too?

The equipment is nowhere near as expensive as some of the bits and gadgets I used to own (which failed to work) for my difficult horse.  If they make money out of their products, they deserve to.

I just WISH that the people who slag a master horseman from the safety of their sofas could have got hold of that horse and attempted to bridle him.  But maybe not.
		
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PP is not the only man who has dealt with problem horses. Seriously I think people have the right to question his methods as stated by other people he did not explain WHY. Surely at a demonstration where he is showing his methods he should EXPLAIN! I hope Parelli followers will one day wake up and see it for what it really is... a money making business!


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## Laafet (12 July 2010)

Actually I have dealt with very dangerous horses through my work and at no point did we ever put a horse on the ground or use any of the other dubious methods prescribed by Parelli at the so called higher levels.


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## baymareb (12 July 2010)

PPF&Proud said:



			Do you Seriously think that if it was as easy as taking the bridle to bits or using a few treats/syrup that Robert Whittaker and his team of grooms wouldn't have sorted it by now?  It has taken 8 weeks of trying and failing and now they have asked for help.  Maybe they should have waited until the horse killed someone?  

Pat Parelli has dealt with horses which have killed people before.  Have you?  Would you?  If someone said "my horse won't be bridled/saddled/go in trailer/stand for farrier/have rug on .... and he killed the last person who tried - can you help me"  What would you say?  Oh, give him a few treats, use syrup on the bit, take the bridle to bits, sedate him .....

Parelli has helped thousands of horses, maybe tens of thousands, spending most of his adult life helping horses and people.  How many have you  helped?  He has hundreds of thousands of followers all over the world - are they all beginners, gullible or brainwashed?  

I am neither gullible nor a beginner, having hunted in Ireland and with the Belvoir since a child, competed all over the country with several different horses, most of which I broke in myself - until I met a horse that I couldn't deal with.  He bolted at the drop of a hat, endagering his own life as well as mine and others (over a railway line once).  NO one would or could help me, and I asked lots and lots of people.  Parelli turned us around and after a while I could do anything with him - more than I'd ever achieved with a horse.

If Pat had cured this horse behind the scenes, he would be accused of hypocrisy.  If it had been an easier horse he would have been accused of working with it beforehand.  He couldn't win with some people, really.  And as for saying that he kicked the horse in the head in the short video clip ..... well there are none so blind as those who won't see.

It is interesting to note that Robert Whittaker is continuing to leave Catwalk with Pat and his team so he can continue to improve.  Or is he stupid/brain washed/a beginner/gullible too?

The equipment is nowhere near as expensive as some of the bits and gadgets I used to own (which failed to work) for my difficult horse.  If they make money out of their products, they deserve to.

I just WISH that the people who slag a master horseman from the safety of their sofas could have got hold of that horse and attempted to bridle him.  But maybe not.
		
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I don't recall reading that this horse had killed anyone.  If he has, it seems he would be even less sensible to use for a demonstration like this.  If he has not, I don't know what your point is.

Just because someone has had success does not mean that their methods are above question.  Much of the problem people are having with this incident is that their questions about *why* things were done the way they were have not been answered.  All that is offered are patronizing remarks to the effect that observers obviously didn't understand what was going on or that they didn't have the horsemanship skills to recognize the breakthrough.

This is nonsense.  If it is impossible for the average person to understand, why use it in a demo with no explanation?  Your post does nothing to add to that understanding.


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## eahotson (12 July 2010)

Not all of us are overawed by Robert Whitaker either.


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## Echo Bravo (12 July 2010)

If a horse has killed someone for what every reason it should be destroyed also a highly dangerous one, which from one of the above post has said Catwalk is?? May have read it wrong.


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## Echo Bravo (12 July 2010)

Also it's sounding more like the Moonies(parellie?)


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## ponydentist (12 July 2010)

No ...you are right Pat Parelli is not the only trainer in the world to have dealt with horses who have killed people. I have seen and met and worked with other trainers who have.

But he has helped thousands of horses from exteeme last hope cases to the slightest of minor problems and has never abused or been cruel to any horse since he started working withthen in the way that he does. Do you really honestly think that a man of his standing in the horse world would publically abuse a horse....let alone a horse who belonged to someone as influential as the one that this stallion belonged to. Ifg you are crazy enough to think that he would wilfully abuse a horse.....tell me your reasons right here and now.

Pat Parelli....like him or loathe him...is a MASTER HORSEMAN of this world with acloades longer than the road from Edinburgh to London. He does not need to comit professional suicide in such a manner. There are people in this world whos "horse life" extends to owning a few horse and having a few horsey friends and no further than that.....and such people are in no position whatsoever to criticise one of the worlds greatest horsemen because they are just simply not in the same league.  

EVERY single thing that he did to that horse on that night was done for a reason with a rationale learned, honed and practiced for years with absolute proven results....And i mean everything that was done.

I was there....I saw..so was my wife...she saw and as i explained she understood. She will stand as witness in any court in any land and say the same ....there was no abuse...cruelty....undue distress or fear caused to that horse on that night. I looked and I saw......I listened and  I heard.

We were going to have our own horse...who i and my wife love endlessly to be used in the following nights demo. We were still going to allow it after the whole of friday nights demo....which incidently we stayed for the whole duration of. My wife went outside and witnessed ONE lady who was clearly incensed talking to Parelli staff and accusations of horse abuse were being thrown.....but this was well before the demo ended. It is pretty clear that this is the lady who posted second to mine in the original start of this thread. There were approx five hundred people watching the demo......not all of them by a long chalk were Parelli devotees.....as we are not...my wife has never been to any kind of demo of this nature. Many were there because they were staying two nights and went along out of pure interest. At the end of the demo 98% of the audience were still seated. 

Please If you want to know my background and horse experience take the time and bother to read my earlier posts...(first two or three from me posted sunday morning) where i have explained who i am and my background with horses.

If anyone is going to contact World Horse Welfare....or any other organisation then please give my details as a witness and my wife's.


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## ponydentist (12 July 2010)

baymareb said:



			I don't recall reading that this horse had killed anyone.  If he has, it seems he would be even less sensible to use for a demonstration like this.  If he has not, I don't know what your point is.

Just because someone has had success does not mean that their methods are above question.  Much of the problem people are having with this incident is that their questions about *why* things were done the way they were have not been answered.  All that is offered are patronizing remarks to the effect that observers obviously didn't understand what was going on or that they didn't have the horsemanship skills to recognize the breakthrough.

This is nonsense.  If it is impossible for the average person to understand, why use it in a demo with no explanation?  Your post does nothing to add to that understanding.
		
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OH MY GOD.....Now people are assuming that the horse used has killed people

PLEASE READ and evaluate every post on here before you make your own replies.....!


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## galaxy (12 July 2010)

ponydentist said:



			I was there....I saw..so was my wife...she saw and as i explained she understood. She will stand as witness in any court in any land and say the same ....there was no abuse...cruelty....undue distress or fear caused to that horse on that night. I looked and I saw......I listened and  I heard.
		
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In a previous post you explained the reasons behing tying a horses leg up being that it makes the horse incredibly vulnerable and feel like it's about to die.  How then would the horse not be feeling undue distress or fear having this done to it?  If it is fear of its life?


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## Laafet (12 July 2010)

Well maybe PP is a horseman but his cheapening of the skill by packaging and saying that anyone can do it and the formation of this almost cult like following is what really leaves a bad taste in the mouth of many, before hearing about the events of Friday ngiht. Interestingly enough I was talking to my South African farrier about this and he was telling me it sounded similar to how the Zulu's treat their horses - think of that what you will.


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## baymareb (12 July 2010)

ponydentist said:



			OH MY GOD.....Now people are assuming that the horse used has killed people

PLEASE READ and evaluate every post on here before you make your own replies.....!
		
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I have read and evaluated every post on here.  I was responding to another poster who stated that Parelli has worked with horses who have killed people.  I questioned what that had to do with this particular incident since I had not heard that Catwalk was a horse that had killed anyone.

My reading comprehension is just fine, thanks.


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## sillygillyhorse (12 July 2010)

galaxy23 said:



			In a previous post you explained the reasons behing tying a horses leg up being that it makes the horse incredibly vulnerable and feel like it's about to die.  How then would the horse not be feeling undue distress or fear having this done to it?  If it is fear of its life?
		
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Any situation which makes man or beast so incredibly vulnerable that they think they may die is plainly and simply a form of bullying.  Sadly in this world bullies naturally occur, is this how Team Parelli can class what they do as "natural"


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## Onyxia (12 July 2010)

ponydentist said:



			But he has helped thousands of horses from exteeme last hope cases to the slightest of minor problems and has never abused or been cruel to any horse since he started working withthen in the way that he does. Do you really honestly think that a man of his standing in the horse world would publically abuse a horse....let alone a horse who belonged to someone as influential as the one that this stallion belonged to. Ifg you are crazy enough to think that he would wilfully abuse a horse.....tell me your reasons right here and now.
		
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I hope noone would,but Spindles farm prooved that making a lot of money off the backs of horses does not mean people always act in their best intrests.
The accounts of people there conflict.There is no video evidence to contradict or confirm the accounts in praise of PP or slamming him-in that situation is is in the best intrests of the horse that PP and his team are asked to proove they did no wrong.




ponydentist said:



			Pat Parelli....like him or loathe him...is a MASTER HORSEMAN of this world with acloades longer than the road from Edinburgh to London. He does not need to comit professional suicide in such a manner. There are people in this world whos "horse life" extends to owning a few horse and having a few horsey friends and no further than that.....and such people are in no position whatsoever to criticise one of the worlds greatest horsemen because they are just simply not in the same league.
		
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BULL.
There are some people who seem to be naturals and pick everything with with effortless ease.
There are some people who work to learn.
There are people who struggle to learn.
Given time and good training,ALL can become very good horseman.
PP is not the only one to do what he does(as you well know) just the one with the best publicist 



ponydentist said:



			EVERY single thing that he did to that horse on that night was done for a reason with a rationale learned, honed and practiced for years with absolute proven results....And i mean everything that was done.
		
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Perhaps,but with no explanation given either at the time or after it is little wonder that many do not like what they are hearing,is it?


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## eventer123 (13 July 2010)

Here's video of Pat fighting with the horse, filmed by someone in the stands, it's absolutely terrible - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gf7w_1ifus


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## DragonSlayer (13 July 2010)

eventer123 said:



			Here's video of Pat fighting with the horse, filmed by someone in the stands, it's absolutely terrible - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gf7w_1ifus

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Thanks for posting this!


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## Hovis_and_SidsMum (13 July 2010)

eventer123 said:



			Here's video of Pat fighting with the horse, filmed by someone in the stands, it's absolutely terrible - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gf7w_1ifus

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Finally!
I couldn't have sat and watched that.
Whether the methods were right or wrong (personally I think totally wrong), this is not something that should be done in front of a room full of layperson horse enthusiasts.
I'd like to stick a gum line on Pepperoni himself and yank him in the mouth whilst tying his leg up.  
*Speechless*


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## Berpisc (13 July 2010)

Thanks for posting......


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## Amymay (13 July 2010)

Ponydentist - I think bottom line about this whole thing is that people feel genuinly upset that a horse used for marketing a 'product' was put through something that does indeed sound distressing and very unneccassary.  Whether people should understand the principles of what PP applies or not is neither here nor there.  What has been described is tantamount to abuse.  You say that that is not what you witnessed, and that is your opinion as somebody who viewd the demo first hand.  However, I think that as a collective we would all agree that any situation that puts an animal under undue and unnessary stress is uncalled for.

I don't doubt that PP and LP have done some really good work with horses - bouncy balls and wavy stick things aside.  However, these ever extreme methods of dealing with vulnerable animals really must stop - and I really wish that these big organisations would think twice before booking them to appear.

I would also ask PP and LP to look themselves at their methods - and question whether these big demonstrations are moving too far away from what their original intentions were.  There is no place for showmanship when dealing with some of these animals - and money aside, I can't for the life of me understand why they think working horses in these large environments is helpful to that animal.

As an aside, I have watched the PP video three or four times now.  The horse looks happy, relaxed and far from nervous of it's handlers.  However, it is still wearing the gum twitch, so not sure how it would be reacting at this point without it.

EDT:  I have now watched the short Youtube video.  

COME ON PP - enough is a friggin nough!


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## eahotson (13 July 2010)

Ponydentist you are so dishonest.You are heavily into Parelli.At least be honest.The new video is now up.I shall be complaining to the BHS and the so called Festival of the Horse.


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## touchstone (13 July 2010)

Originally Posted by ponydentist  


"Pat Parelli....like him or loathe him...is a MASTER HORSEMAN of this world with acloades longer than the road from Edinburgh to London. He does not need to comit professional suicide in such a manner. There are people in this world whos "horse life" extends to owning a few horse and having a few horsey friends and no further than that.....and such people are in no position whatsoever to criticise one of the worlds greatest horsemen because they are just simply not in the same league."


I think Pat Parelli HAS just committed professional suicide!  How ludicrous to suggest that simply because someone owns a few horses and has a few horsey friends they can't spot cruelty when they see it!

I know some old horsemen who have had horses for generations who would never resort to such extreme measures for a bridle shy horse.

The day we make someone a guru and don't question (and receive logical answers, not ones that say that we are blind or don't understand) is the day that the welfare of horses will be seriously compromised.  It seems to be being bandied about that there are none so blind as those that can't see, well to my mind it is the parelli followers who are being the blind ones.  

I know it is often said that it is those who have least to do with horses that can often come out with the most obvious solution that has been overlooked, I suspect any non horsey person watching the parelli's in action in this instance and the blind horse, would be rightly shocked.  Perhaps it is about time the parelli followers removed their blinkers and looked honestly at the situation.   For a public demonstration surely other methods should have been demonstrated, not the most extreme, violent 'solution'.  What message does that send?

I was pretty ambivalent about parelli before this incident and the blind horse being hauled around and hit with ropes on its head, but wouldn't go near it now.   I can't see the understanding in making a horse feel that it is about to die so that it will give in.  It is a return to the barbaric methods that we were supposedly moving away from, weren't we?


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## brighteyes (13 July 2010)

eahotson said:



			Ponydentist you are so dishonest.You are heavily into Parelli.At least be honest.The new video is now up.I shall be complaining to the BHS and the so called Festival of the Horse.
		
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Be very careful of levelling accusations you are unable to prove. He isn't dishonest *and he most certainly isn't* 'into Parelli'!


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## LucyPriory (13 July 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gf7w_1ifus

This is abuse - on so many levels.

Just because someone has an explanation for their behaviour doesn't make it right.

Remember the spouse beater always blames the beaten spouse and the child molster always declares the child 'wanted it' or 'lead them on'.

Enough already - How many times in human history do we have to repeat the same old saga.  Someone with a bit of charisma/savvy/ or just plain bully does something objectionable but gets away with it because others are two much in awe of the person, or scared or worse, indifferent.

How do we get this stopped?  By acting locally.  Don't put up with this behaviour in your own environment and encourage others to do the same.

Think globally - report incidents and follow up.  Let the RSPCA or the relevant body that your contributions to their organisation will stop unless they do something about it.

Heck - instead of posting to this forum let's flood the BHS and the RSPCA with our comments.  Then they might have to take notice.


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## Amymay (13 July 2010)

eahotson said:



			Ponydentist you are so dishonest.You are heavily into Parelli.At least be honest.
		
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Surely it's totally irrelevent whether someone is 'into' Parelli or not?  Ponydentist is entirely justified in putting across his views as someone who was at the demonstration.  And you don't have to be 'into' something to be an admirer.

The argument here is not whether someone is a follower of the principles of Parelli - rather that abuse under any 'name' is not acceptable.


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## kira (13 July 2010)

I don't see anything much wrong with that not even 2mins of video - can anyone else tell me what's wrong with it?  I actually haven't seen anything that I would be horrified of yet.

I am absolutely 100% anti-parelli too and I actually thought that by the sounds of it he used some common sense horsemanship to assist a horse to get over an issue that it has.  This is not just a small issue - lets face it, this horse has to be bridled every day to work, so this is an issue it has to face everyday.  I for one am glad that they were able to help him and he can now be bridled with no stress.  For the sake of a couple of hours "stress" over a couple of days, this horse now has a useful life.  Imagine how much stress he would have had being bridled everyday for the next 10 years how he reacted initally.  That is to say that people would have kept going for 10 years without giving up and sending him to the dogs.....


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## Hovis_and_SidsMum (13 July 2010)

kira said:



			I don't see anything much wrong with that not even 2mins of video - can anyone else tell me what's wrong with it?  I actually haven't seen anything that I would be horrified of yet.

I am absolutely 100% anti-parelli too and I actually thought that by the sounds of it he used some common sense horsemanship to assist a horse to get over an issue that it has.  This is not just a small issue - lets face it, this horse has to be bridled every day to work, so this is an issue it has to face everyday.  I for one am glad that they were able to help him and he can now be bridled with no stress.  For the sake of a couple of hours "stress" over a couple of days, this horse now has a useful life.  Imagine how much stress he would have had being bridled everyday for the next 10 years how he reacted initally.  That is to say that people would have kept going for 10 years without giving up and sending him to the dogs.....
		
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But parking the "abuse" issue to one side is the argument not more about this type of technique being used in a demonstration in front of X number of people, most of whom wouldn't have understood the thinking behind what he was doing,  in a great big arena?  
Surely following your arguement Mr P should have worked with Catwalk at home, in the quiet and "helped him".  Oh wait...... thats right.................he wouldn't be making a fast £££££ from an adoring public if he did that would he?


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## LucyPriory (13 July 2010)

Kira - think of something you hate - maybe having a plastic bag put over your head.  Or put into a tank full of snakes - then let me repeat the same techniques on you to force you to submit.  That would be ok wouldn't it?

It would appear that Catwalk's earlier training has been inadequate - in that it has failed.  Not sure how this justifies abusing him.

Likewise not sure how our requirement to put a bridle on a horse justifies abuse either.

There are plenty of people who can educate horses without abusing them.  Let's celebrate them rather than aggressive bullies.

Or does acceptance of this behaviour fall into the same bag as people who enjoy consorting with violent criminals?  Because I don't understand that either.

In fact PonyDentist on one thing we do agree.  You are right - I don't understand the Parelli stuff - because I don't understand bullying.

Edited to add:

In fact this reminds me of the 'Stockholm principle'.  Hostages who start identifying with their captors.  I think it is a survival technique. So if someone bullies their horse just because that horse 'submits' or whatever does not prove that the bullying was acceptable.

I do know an abused person who (as part of the way in which they survived emotionally) tries to justify their abusers behaviour.  I also know abused dogs who still lick their abusers hands.  Its all part of the survival process and it doesn't mean it justifies the abusive behaviour.


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## Munchkin (13 July 2010)

Just watched the new video. To be honest, I think he's an idiot for using that horse for his demo, and I don't like the fact this went on for so long. But what I've seen there isn't so shocking, and he did release the moment that the horse responded.

I don't "like" it, but it's not on the same level as his wife battering the half blind horse, not to me anyway!

I would like to see the whole thing, though.


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## domane (13 July 2010)

I'm not an expert, but Mr Pepperoni's body language in that vid does not come across as a passive persistent leader... clearly he's keeping out of reach for safety reasons but even I can read that he's looking nervous.  To me he just comes across as a a fumbling, bumbling idiot... but that IS just my opinion.....


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## touchstone (13 July 2010)

Blimey! If you can't see anything wrong with that and a horse not being able to be used the following day because of the injuries sustained from the twitch I despair!

There are KINDER ways to deal with this that do not involve a horse fearing he is going to die - it might take longer and not be the quick fix, but it doesn't mean a horse would be sent to the dogs because it takes a bit more sympathy  compassion and time to get the job done!


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## ester (13 July 2010)

I still think it is pretty poor that the vet said that catwalk was not to be used the following day but that PP was still allowed to work on him behind the scenes. It should have been one or the other IMO if it was physical injury that the vet was making the decision for.


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## NOISYGIRL (13 July 2010)

I think sometimes people want an instant fix instead of spending time with the horse, getting its trust.  I used to ride a VERY head shy horse after its owner used to throw brushes at it across the stable, when I went in to brush him he automatically thought I was going to throw it at him, over time I used to massage gently up his neck eventually being able to brush him on the head etc, thankfully he got sold to someone who cared for him.  Maybe they need to xray his head to see if there's anything wrong with his poll etc.  If they can get a headcollar on him, then if they used a bridle with clips to put the bit on, slip that on 1st then clip the bit in,

I've tried to get the parelli thing but it just looks like a circus act to me, who wants their horse to stand on a step thing like an elephant in a circus, I don't know, I have tried, its all the pazzaz thats gets me as well.  

I'm afraid I would have had to walk out as well


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## Alimac19 (13 July 2010)

I thought that one of Pat Parelli's mottos was that horses are a hunted animal and their natrual reaction is fight or flight and you need to understand and work with this.  Surley by tying it's legs up he is removing the horses natural instinct of flight, therefore not working with it and leaving it the only option of fight.  To me this looks like the old fashioned western way of "breaking" a horse i.e., subjecting it forcefully to what it dosn't like until it gives in, i.e., "breaks".  Is this not the complete opposite to PP's teachings?  I'm not against NH or twitching provided it's done for the right reasons. Not sure about tying it's legs up though, I know we lift one but thats more so that we get an early warning and can get out of the way if it tries to kick/rear, it dosn't stop it actually doing it. It just seems to me that the die harrd NH people are so closed minded to anything but and refuse to see the real issue. Would they lat PP do this to their horse or would they get the vet to check first if it had ear/teeth problems??  I think they would go stright for the PP route.  I've seen the PP DVD's and they tackle horse issues but don't firt ask the fundementals i.e., is it in pain? It all assumes that the horse has had a misuded past and it's feelings are hurt!!  B***ocks!!!!!!


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## eahotson (13 July 2010)

Amymay I would have a little more respect for Ponydentist if he was HONEST.In general I have more respect for people who are honest even if I don't agree with/like their views.


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## AengusOg (13 July 2010)

I have no time for Parelli. I haven't read all the pages in this thread and, due to my only having primitive dial-up, I cannot spare the time to watch the videos.

However, it seems to me that Mr P has, again, in his efforts to amaze the world and sell his wares, gone and bitten off more than he can chew.

My seven year old son already knows that there are no quick fixes for the unfortunate horses in this world for whom an association with humans has meant pain, fear, and coercion. He has watched me work with horses and recognises that time, patience, and repetition are necessary tools in the horse-training box, and that haste, force, and impatience cause problems.

There is no way that this horse of RW's could have been 'cured' of such an obviously deep-seated problem within the time constraints of a demonstration, so why did he take it on under those circumstances?

PNH has done itself much damage recently. The eyes of the world are upon it, and not for the reasons hoped for by Mr and Mrs P. The PNH control room tells us that all is well within the empire, and that the non-believers failing to see the bigger picture will not topple them from their pedestal which is amply supported by the adoration of its homage-paying supporters.

We'll see.


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## Caledonia (13 July 2010)

ponydentist said:



			Do you really honestly think that a man of his standing in the horse world would publically abuse a horse....let alone a horse who belonged to someone as influential as the one that this stallion belonged to.
		
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Yes, he's fallen into that celebrity trap of thinking himself above reprimand or criticism, in no small part boosted by the blind worship from most of his disciples. 



ponydentist said:



			If you are crazy enough to think that he would wilfully abuse a horse.....tell me your reasons right here and now.
		
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This video (from earlier in the thread, in case you didn't see it) does it for me - that is abuse - he's bullying a scared little mare, and then hits her across the head. She could get injured on the ramp, she is terrified. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwYAn4IH918



ponydentist said:



			He does not need to comit professional suicide in such a manner.
		
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See, that's just it, he doesn't see it like that because he's so arrogant, he's thinks he's untouchable, he's fallen for his own press. Listen to the drivel he spouts, the parallels he draws as he works - it's not about the horse he's dealing with, it's chapter and verse from all these self-help books that flood America to boost religions and pyramid selling. 



ponydentist said:



			There are people in this world whos "horse life" extends to owning a few horse and having a few horsey friends and no further than that.....and such people are in no position whatsoever to criticise one of the worlds greatest horsemen because they are just simply not in the same league.
		
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What patronising trite nonsense. The ONLY difference between PP and hundreds of other *much better* horsemen/women the world over is that he is a very clever marketeer. You'll get no argument from me on the Parelli machine business acumen.




ponydentist said:



			At the end of the demo 98% of the audience were still seated.
		
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As I wasn't there, I can only comment on the very small amount of video out there in the public forum. However, if I was sat watching what has been described (and there appears to be consensus about the tools used from both sides), I promise I would have been vocal and questioning direct to PP during the show. Someone disrespecting horses in such a  manner does not deserve to be unaccountable, however rich or famous he is.
I would also have been in that 98% just to see how far he would go with the horse, and the end result. 

ETA - as I have now seen the video posted with the stallion on here, I cannot see for the life of me how that experience ending in a wound to the mouth could in ANY way be a positive experience for the horse. 



ponydentist said:



			Please If you want to know my background and horse experience take the time and bother to read my earlier posts...(first two or three from me posted sunday morning) where i have explained who i am and my background with horses.
		
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Is this you telling us that you are better placed to judge PP than we are because of your vast equine experience? 
By your implication, to pass educated comment, whether it be praise or criticism, you have to be on the same lofty (in your opinion) level as PP - Are you putting yourself there?

As a personal aside, I am thankfully not on PP's plane at all. The same way I will never be on the same plane as other 'horsemen' who abuse the horse. I *never *want to use his means to those ends. If his route was the only way to handle horses I'd never go near one again.


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## Crackerz (13 July 2010)

I don't think, or ever will think, that PP is a great horseman. A great business man, yes. Horseman, no. 
Someone that can't admit to being wrong has issues beyond anything i'm interested in.

I'm not justifying my reasons but if people can't see anything wrong with that video, that situation, then i dispair. I really do. 

PP i hope your empire crashes and burns. But i guess it won't aslong as you have blinkered followers. 

That's the last post on this topic from me, i'll go back to my extremely happy, healthy, level headed herd of horses, knowing i will never intentionally inflict such distress on them whatever they throw at me.


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## Weezy (13 July 2010)

Watched the new vid of footage from the demo.  I must admit I was expecting a lot more abuse from what has been written by eye witnesses.  From what I can see, there is nothing I would report TBH - I still think PP is an idiot for using the horse in a demo, but I have yet to see him wrestling with the horse, and I cannot see how he is using the gum line so cannot comment on that.


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## I_am_a_cucumber (13 July 2010)

Not sure if this has been posted yet, but here is an other (short) video of the first session.  Obviously not the official Parelli version...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gf7w_1ifus


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## rushyj (13 July 2010)

IMO people in PP "position" are more accountable for their actions due to the influence he has over his followers.  I watched the video with not much surprise and to me it came across as a desperate attempt to pull something off in front of a paid up crowd when I should imagine even he knew it had gone too far.  

With regards to the abuse side that is simple. Was the horse:

a. In distress
b. In pain
c. restrained so the above could continue.

The answer is yes to all of the above.  If someone had treated a horse or pony this way at a show for example they would have been reported simple as and the excuse you don't understand is completely irrelevant.  

The horse clearly had bridling problems which experience with horses tells you it takes time to cure not restrain the poor thing and force the issue because your against the clock for an expectant paying crowd.  This following Linda beating a blind horse around the head I think PP followers need to take a step back make their own minds up on which parts of Parelli they wish to follow and NOT hero worship to the extent that they defend this kind of behaviour.  If they are into natural horsemanship and respecting and loving horses they should have been the first ones on the phone reporting this incident not telling experience horse owners and riders they don't understand the methods.  Bloody right we don't they are barbaric and outdated the real horse world moved on years ago from that.


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## PolarSkye (13 July 2010)

See, I just don't understand this . . . 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwYAn4IH918

I really don't see the link between what PP was doing (swinging that rope at the mare's shoulder) and what he was asking from the horse (go into the trailer) . . . I'm no great horsewoman, but I saw a confused horse.  It seemed to me that he kept "asking" the same question over and over again with little or no effect on the what/how the horse behaved (aside from avoidance).  

If I ask Kali a question and it becomes clear that he isn't responding in the way that I want either because he's being stubborn, or scared, or because he's confused (or just plain "stuck"), it's my responsibility to figure out another way to ask the question.  Surely, asking the same question in the same way over and over and always getting avoidance just teaches avoidance?  Or am I being really thick?  And what about rewarding "the try" . . . and giving the horse time to have a think . . . until tomorrow perhaps?  

Really, really confused.

P


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## Oldred (13 July 2010)

I was there Friday evening and would like to report what I experienced. From the point in the evening that PP &#8216;led&#8217; the horse round by its tongue (he also had a halter on Catwalk and this was prior to the gumline and leg tie up) I started to feel uncomfortable. I have been interested in PP's methods and was in no way 'anti'. I have seen him at several other demos and not seen anything like this. I have heard many of his sayings.....'dignity of the horse, love, language, leadership, its about the relationship, what would the horse's mother think if she could see how it was being treated' etc so was doubly very uncomfortable with how things unfolded as I was not expecting what I saw. 

I think PP started working with the horse about 7.30 pm and I walked out at 9.30 pm being unable to stand any more. Other people had left before me. After a period of trying to desensitise the horse to hands up near his head, using the pad to mimic something going back and forward across his ears PP tied up his leg and continued to try to get the bridle on. I was surprised at this and started to be concerned that the horse may fall over and hurt itself (bearing in mind it was in an arena with temporary railing and other obstacles in a strange environment so feeling even more unconfident that it might have done elsewhere).

PP was still unable to get the bridle on and kept pushing it up to its head whereupon Catwalk kept just shaking his head and the bridle would fall off. After about 20 mins of this he produced a thin black rope from his pocket and put that on by attaching it to one side of the Parelli halter, through the upper lip resting on the gum, out the other side and through the halter. PP then pulled Catwalk&#8217;s head down with the line, made him back up, led him round and repeated this for a while. (I was in a front row seat by the way). After some time doing this he started to try to put the bridle on holding Catwalk&#8217;s head in place with the gum line. Catwalk still raised his head away from the bridle though at no point in the whole demo was Catwalk ever aggressive. At this point I began to worry about the effect of all this hauling, pushing and pulling on Catwalk&#8217;s gum as it had been going on for seemingly a very long time. 

As there was no improvement in Catwalk&#8217;s acceptance of bridling, PP then tied his leg up again and continued to hold the gum line and the rope on his leg and try to get the bridle on. Catwalk went down on his knees at one point, and later did indeed rear up and run away. LP came into the arena and she pulled on the rope round Catwalk&#8217;s foreleg while PP held the gum line and tried to get the bridle on. Still Catwalk attempted to avoid the bridle and I could bear no more as nearly two hours had elapsed in total and I would guess heading for an hour with the gumline on.  I walked out and joined another audience member, and then two more who asked a Parelli official to intervene. He of course refused, said we didn&#8217;t understand what was going on, and asked us to step outside. We moved to outside the arena and remonstrated with the official again.

We then decided to speak to PP and ask him why he was doing this to Catwalk. We went to the back of the arena and when PP came out asked to see inside Catwalk&#8217;s mouth. He peeled back his top lip and there was bright red lesion. After putting forward our views for 10 to 15 minutes (!) and yes, we were now incensed, PP apologised for upsetting us and asked what could he do? We all said, please, just never do this to another horse ever again. The reports of the other posters who were there with PP are correct. We were then given our money back.

The next day we went to the BHS stand and asked if a vet could look at Catwalk as he was due to be used again in a demo and we wanted him checked. The BHS phoned the organisers (Festival of the Horse) who arranged for a vet to look at Catwalk. Within a hour or so the vet reported back via the BHS rep that he had examined Catwalk, yes, there was a lesion and that Catwalk would not be used in the demo the next day. (Alice Bell, Festival of the Horse 02476 858276 and Andrea Jackman, BHS 01686 627050).

Seems the world falls into two camps....you either think this is all okay or you don't. I didn't.


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## fburton (13 July 2010)

For Naturally...



fburton said:



			... to see what he says about flooding.
		
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In The Truth About Horses, Andrew McLean writes:

"The rate at which horses habituate to stimuli varies widely from individual to individual, and from breed to breed. In some cases it can be increased by "flooding", or exposing the animal to extreme doses of the stimulus. Flooding is also used to tackle certain phobias in humans - people with a fear of snakes are sometimes helped when forced to confront them in the hands of a trainer - but our complex psyche and imagination confounds the success of this technique. In horses, however, it works well, and is especially effective if applied while the horse is immobile, as in the example of the wheat-box experiments (page 29)."

That quote confirms your recollection exactly.

Since then he (with Paul McGreevy) has written: "In a sensible training program, it is important not to flood the horse with aversive stimuli but to progressively habituate at the lowest thresholds of aversive pressure."

Perhaps the second quote indicates a distinction is drawn between how _effective_ a method is and how _desirable_ it is.

I guess one would have to ask Andrew whether he feels flooding _should_ be used in training (and how much is acceptable), not simply whether it's effective.

Tying up Catwalk to make escape harder may have allowed flooding to be performed. Whether that is humane or represents the best of horsemanship is a different matter entirely and open to debate.


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## Amymay (13 July 2010)

Oldred, I'd be interested to know if the BHS had any comment to make when you spoke to them???


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## JVB (13 July 2010)

Having watched the video on youtube I am totally appalled by what went on, and in no way will ever see that sort of trestment as a suitable way to train a horse. RW is lucky the horse continues to perform for him in competition as it would be well within it's right to never let another human on it's back again.


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## Oldred (13 July 2010)

amymay said:



			Oldred, I'd be interested to know if the BHS had any comment to make when you spoke to them???
		
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The BHS representatives were completely professional and immediately rang the organisers without any discussion or comments.


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## Shysmum (13 July 2010)

again, I beg the witnesses to contact the RSPCA - 0300 1234 999. Let's get this rubbish stopped once and for all in the UK.


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## Sarah1 (13 July 2010)

Not read all of the threads so sorry if repeating anything or asking questions already answered!

Does Robert own the stallion?  If not then I'd like to know what his owners think of the whole thing!

If he were my horse he wouldn't have stayed a minute longer with Robert or that vile Parelli fool!  

Pat & Linda Parelli disgust me.


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## charlie76 (13 July 2010)

Have just watched the video- terrible.
On another note, does anyone have contact details for Robert as I had a horse that was EXACTLY like this and I solved it in a much easier way. Not saying I know everything but maybe what I did might do the job.
Mine was so bad that he ran backwards through a stable wall and I sorted it within a week.


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## cruiseliner (13 July 2010)

I think people need to think about things and maybe address the situation that this horse has had god knows what done to him in the past 7 years of his life to make him this way around his head/ears. PP did not create the problem, somebody else did that damage to the horse. The horse became more and more confident the next day and on Sunday the horse lowered his head for Rob and allowed him to bridle him - something which he has not been able to do. 
To the people who make out there is some financial involvement with Rob and Georgie Spence getting into the programme, there is none! The facts are pretty clear....both have had horses that they couldn't ride. Through Parelli they now have horses they can ride and that they can compete !
Rob's horse had tried to be broken in by several professional breakers but nobody could do it. The horse was too difficult - but using a different approach turned her life around. The horse is now described as an easy ride, and jumping at shows. In my opinion - the number of talented, but misunderstood horses that would otherwise have been put down yet have been saved and are excelling because people sent them to a Parelli Professional,shows me that Parelli is not cruel etc and not any of these negative comments on here


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## Red30563 (13 July 2010)

cruiseliner said:



			The horse became more and more confident the next day and on Sunday the horse lowered his head for Rob and allowed him to bridle him - something which he has not been able to do.
		
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So the end justifies the means, does it?

Hmmm....


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## JenJ (13 July 2010)

cruiseliner said:



			The horse was too difficult - but using a different approach turned her life around. The horse is now described as an easy ride, and jumping at shows.
		
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Since Sunday? Wow! Does PP have a time machine too, or were there loads of shows yesterday?

Oh, and as Rob's horse is a stallion I would have assumed it would be classed as 'his' life not 'her' life?


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## drover (13 July 2010)

I attended the show and what I could see was PP using force and mechanics to obtain results with the horse in order to further inflate his already over inflated ego.

Its a crying shame, I have learned from some of the horsemen and women that PP claims to have learned from and they would be taking a very dim view of his 'demonstration'

There are many talented horsemen and women out there that are catergorised under 'natural' and 'parelli' that will now be tarnished with the same brush thanks to this dire example.


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## rushyj (13 July 2010)

Oh I am sorry this is now getting laughable.  In essence the horse was held tight in a gum twitch while it's front leg was hobbled pinned down and forced.  Stop dressing it up.  It is no different than some of the more frowned on pursuits that NH followers are happy to say are disgusting.  

I would be interested how the Parelli approach would cure a showjumper that knocks poles down.  The Parelli Magic Show Jump pole that autoraises as the horse takes off and is covered in NH smiley prickles perhaps?


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## SonnysHumanSlave (13 July 2010)

I have just watched the video of it this morning, and i am disgusted!!!


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## Amymay (13 July 2010)

PP did not create the problem, somebody else did that damage to the horse. The horse became more and more confident the next day and on Sunday the horse lowered his head for Rob and allowed him to bridle him - something which he has not been able to do.
		
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I agree with what you have said here.  And agree that the PP video does show a relaxed and happy horse (imo anyway).  However, the bridle was going on with the gum line in, so the horse was not totally compliant.

Again, though - from what I understand of the PP philosophy - much of what was done to the horse in the demo goes right against that philosophy.  So they really do need to look at what they're about, how they achieve their results and what message they are trying to put out - because certainly at the moment that message is not clear.


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## Shrek-Eventing-SW (13 July 2010)

I take it that this has not been posted yet, but if it has, then sorry! Here is a YouTube user with alot of videos from "the night in question". Lots very "natural" to me...


NOT! 

It is discusting!

Anyway, here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/user/TheMetalfreehorse#p/u/14/E5xObFZ29tg


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## fburton (13 July 2010)

JenJ said:



			Since Sunday? Wow! Does PP have a time machine too, or were there loads of shows yesterday?

Oh, and as Rob's horse is a stallion I would have assumed it would be classed as 'his' life not 'her' life?
		
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That's what I thought too on first reading. JenJ must be referring to a different horse.


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## SonnysHumanSlave (13 July 2010)

fburton said:



			For Naturally...


In The Truth About Horses, Andrew McLean writes:

"The rate at which horses habituate to stimuli varies widely from individual to individual, and from breed to breed. In some cases it can be increased by "flooding", or exposing the animal to extreme doses of the stimulus. Flooding is also used to tackle certain phobias in humans - people with a fear of snakes are sometimes helped when forced to confront them in the hands of a trainer - but our complex psyche and imagination confounds the success of this technique. In horses, however, it works well, and is especially effective if applied while the horse is immobile, as in the example of the wheat-box experiments (page 29)."
		
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Hi i once read an article on phobias in horses and humans too, it was a very long and detailed article about phobia transfer.  This is basically if you use the method of flooding it can also increase the phobia and transfer it to other items as well.
For example: Being exposed to being forced with a bridle, as the horse is scared of being touched on the head, then becomes scared of bridles, people, arenas, travelling, leading etc etc. So dont see that as a method of curing a phobia in a horse either.


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## cruiseliner (13 July 2010)

Oh, and as Rob's horse is a stallion I would have assumed it would be classed as 'his' life not 'her' life?[/QUOTE]


Maybe I wasn't clear or you misread. I was explaining about the horse that Originally got Rob interested in Parelli ! She was called Jewel, and she is a mare !!


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## rushyj (13 July 2010)

cruiseliner said:



			Oh, and as Rob's horse is a stallion I would have assumed it would be classed as 'his' life not 'her' life?
		
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Maybe I wasn't clear or you misread. I was explaining about the horse that Originally got Rob interested in Parelli ! She was called Jewel, and she is a mare !![/QUOTE]

Ok then Cruiseliner are you saying that you thought that last Fridays Demo was completely the right way forward for this horse and there is no need for concern at all?


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## paisley (13 July 2010)

I love the fact that any critcism of Parelli methods elicits the reply " you just don't understand it".  Because of all the videos I've watched none of the horses seem to either! And I've yet to see any Parelli methods that make it morally superior to the majority of training techniques.


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## fburton (13 July 2010)

Red30563 said:



			So the end justifies the means, does it?

Hmmm....
		
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The problem, with horses, is that the benign appearance of the "end" can obscure and blind people to the means used to get there - although there are often tell-tale signs that the means weren't quite so benign. Horses are so adaptable and have such a large capacity to absorb suffering in silence, they can be turned into quiet, biddable, effective working animals using quite horrific and inhumane methods. I just watched a documentary about Argentinian horse breaking and rodeo - some of what goes on in their training would be illegal in this country and a lot of it looks cruel to our eyes - and yet, somehow, usable horses come out the other end.

However, just because horses can be made into "good citizens" using rough or abusive techniques, doesn't mean we have to choose that path if there are other ways - and there almost always are! - to achieve the same end.


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## shutterfoto (13 July 2010)

Hi everyone, I especially registered to this forum so that I could answer to this thread.
I understand that some people are appaled or disgusted by what they saw and do not believe that Pat and Linda are true horsemen. I however have a completely different opinion and would at least like to share it with you. I don't really care if this changes your mind or not, you are free to believe whatever you want, but I believe in them, all the way!
Here is what I experienced:
Pat usually always comments while he is playing with or teaching horses so it helps the spectator to make sense of what it is he is doing.
This time was very very different. I don't know how many of you actually have experience with Stallions to start with (like some stallions actually kill sick foals by biting their necks, it's hard but it's nature in it's simplest form, survival of the fittest), but this particular stallion was in the top 3 of Pat's most difficult horses he has ever met in his lifelong carreer. This lead to him  to put music on so he could concentrate on the horse rather than on the public. Of course this gave a gap for the spectators and created room for misinterpretation.
It's very simple though, this horse was trying to kill him and if he wouldn't have done what he has done with the horse (and risk his life), this horse might have put quite a number of people in the hospital and even worse, he might have killed some too. 
People tend to forget that horses can be extremely dangerous when overconfident or when scared, young kids get killed every year by horses, same with adults.
At a certain stage, horses can become so sick of a certain treatement and they simply go on strike, that's what this horse did. I read that a lot of you were saying he was scared, but if you read the signs, the body language of the horse, you will see that he was not scared (though difficult to see as the video has a very bad quality), he was an over condifent horse on adrenaline, he hardly moved during the whole thing and when he did it was with precision and premeditation, that is a very clear sign of domination, a bit like a kungfu master in action, and the only thing that was of interest to him was getting rid of Pat, either alive or not alive. 
What Pat was doing, was not scaring the horse, but convincing him that he would persist and not give up like many other people would have. He tried different techniques to get into the mind of the horse rather than to his body. Some of the techniques did not work, but in the end he managed to get into the horses mind and was able to convince him.
If you look at the very short video of the work that was done after friday you'll see that this horse is nowhere near scared of Pat, on the contrary, this horse is very relaxed and loves being with him. And not to mention, they are able to bridle him now easily and he even won a competition this weekend!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8j25pS6ixWk&feature=related

If I would have scared the **** out of you like you claim he did with this horse, would you be willing to stand with me in a relaxed way and even enjoy being with me? I don't think so.

Kind Regards all


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## Amymay (13 July 2010)

this horse was trying to kill him and if he wouldn't have done what he has done with the horse (and risk his life), this horse might have put quite a number of people in the hospital and even worse, he might have killed some too.
		
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Really, where is the evidence of that?  I wonder if we are all talking about the same animal?

I think you underestimate the knowledge of most of the people on here.




			he was an over condifent horse on adrenaline, he hardly moved during the whole thing and when he did it was with precision and premeditation, that is a very clear sign of domination, a bit like a kungfu master in action
		
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Which shows just how little understanding of how horses think you have...........


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## JenJ (13 July 2010)

cruiseliner said:



			Oh, and as Rob's horse is a stallion I would have assumed it would be classed as 'his' life not 'her' life?


Maybe I wasn't clear or you misread. I was explaining about the horse that Originally got Rob interested in Parelli ! She was called Jewel, and she is a mare !!
		
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Ah, got it. I wasn't aware that RW had been involved in Parelli before.


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## fburton (13 July 2010)

fburton said:



			That's what I thought too on first reading. JenJ must be referring to a different horse.
		
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I meant Cruiseliner, not JenJ, of course. (Silly system wouldn't let me correct myself after 15 mins.)


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## AengusOg (13 July 2010)

shysmum said:



			Let's get this rubbish stopped once and for all in the UK.
		
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That's not really the answer, though, is it?

Dog-fighting and cock-fighting were 'stopped once and for all' and still take place. Badger-baiting still happens. Fox-hunting was banned by the belief of many that it was a cruel sport, yet foxes are still killed and by more cruel means than by hunting with hounds.

On other threads you have called for Appleby horse fair to be stopped.

Banning is obviously not the way to prevent cruelty to animals. 

Stopping public exhibitions of a particular method, whether it be the belief of an individual or of a corporate machine, will only drive it underground where it cannot be accurately monitered and judged on its merits by the masses.

Surely PNH will die sooner, exposed to public scrutiny, than if it were credited with outlaw status, don't you think?


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## R2R (13 July 2010)

shutterfoto said:



			This time was very very different. I don't know how many of you actually have experience with Stallions to start with (like some stallions actually kill sick foals by biting their necks, it's hard but it's nature in it's simplest form, survival of the fittest), but this particular stallion was in the top 3 of Pat's most difficult horses he has ever met in his lifelong carreer. 


It's very simple though, this horse was trying to kill him and if he wouldn't have done what he has done with the horse (and risk his life), this horse might have put quite a number of people in the hospital and even worse, he might have killed some too. 
People tend to forget that horses can be extremely dangerous when overconfident or when scared, young kids get killed every year by horses, same with adults.
		
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I am sorry, but what you have just said 

a) I believe Pat was outhorsed on this occasion and all his demonstration proved was sometimes the beast is bigger than the man

b) at no point did I think the stallion was a threat to Pat. I have seen a tb stallion pick a grown man up by its shoulder, like a rag doll, drag him and maul him. It was one of the most horrific things I have ever viewed and something I dont like thinking about but at NO POINT in that video does that stallion look like he is going to kill PP - he only looks terrified by him. 

c) I think you have been brainwashed.


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## Sarah1 (13 July 2010)

shutterfoto said:



			It's very simple though, this horse was trying to kill him and if he wouldn't have done what he has done with the horse (and risk his life), this horse might have put quite a number of people in the hospital and even worse, he might have killed some too. 
People tend to forget that horses can be extremely dangerous when overconfident or when scared, young kids get killed every year by horses, same with adults.
		
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Really?  Is that what Pat & his disciples thought?  Not what I saw to be honest - the horse would not have had any adverse reaction to the silly man if he hadn't been trying to incapacitate him!  Fight or flight, ever heard of it?

I think most  horse people understand stallions an awful lot better than Parelli followers give the rest of us credit for - especially if you all believe the horse was trying to kill him!

Ridiculous!  The whole spectacle can not be justified.


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## fburton (13 July 2010)

amymay said:



			Really, where is the evidence of that?  I wonder if we are all talking about the same animal?

I think you underestimate the knowledge of most of the people on here.
		
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I also find the assertion that the horse was trying to kill him unbelievable. Catwalk gives the strong impression throughout that he is a sensitive, but forgiving stallion. Almost no aggression is evident in the clips I have seen and he is certainly no "killer".


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## rushyj (13 July 2010)

Thank you at last a Parelli follower attempting to explain rather than assume we don't understand.  If Rob is now competing this horse I assume he has had a bridle on in the past has he had any fatalities due to this horse in the past using non Parelli methods?

I will agree to completely disagree.


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## JenJ (13 July 2010)

shutterfoto said:



			It's very simple though, this horse was trying to kill him and if he wouldn't have done what he has done with the horse (and risk his life), this horse might have put quite a number of people in the hospital and even worse, he might have killed some too.
		
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Trying to kill him? By backing off and trying to get away from PP? That's all I've seen in the videos. Have you some other evidence of the attempt to kill?


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## Crackerz (13 July 2010)

(iwasn't going to reply again, but can't help myself)

Shutterfoto what a load of twaddle. I've worked with stallions in the past, and have my own one now too. If that horse wanted to kill PP, he would have. There wasn't agression from Catwalk in the videos, or from eye witness accounts, including 2 close friends of mine that aren't on here & haven't seen the uproar the demo has caused so aren't 'jumping on the PP bashing bandwagon' (although they are extremely upset).


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## Sparkles (13 July 2010)

Backing off, rearing up, spinning and generally going 'backwards' for reactions, surely shows the flight response to just get away from the possible 'danger', not an agressive response to try and 'kill' the handler.

Or have I been brainwashed my whole life dealing with horses thinking this....


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## TinyTrigger (13 July 2010)

shutterfoto said:



			, this horse was trying to kill him and if he wouldn't have done what he has done with the horse (and risk his life), this horse might have put quite a number of people in the hospital and even worse, he might have killed some too.
		
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amymay said:



			Really, where is the evidence of that?  I wonder if we are all talking about the same animal?

I think you underestimate the knowledge of most of the people on here.
		
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What AmyMay said. Exactly. Do not underestimate or patronise the members here. 

That video is awful. What amazes me is the hypocrisy. If another trainer, 'natural' or not, had a video of such treatment online the outcry would be huge - especially from PP or other 'natural' followers. However, somehow if PP does it it's fine! That disgusts me more. 

I was fairly recently subjected to a total witch hunt by a NH group for giving a lazt pony a smack on the bum. And yet tying up and using a gum twitch is ok. Righto. That seems reasonable


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## Bojangles (13 July 2010)

Shutterfort- I still see this as abuse tieing up a leg and useing a gum line!!!! Like many people on here who had/got head shy and bride shyness time and patince is the best thing to gain the trust in the horse!!! Maybe I should of tied my horse leg up as he was very beaten in the pastd which had caused the head shyness just to save time!!!!! I wouldnt dare use this way on any animals. It's a shame the horse had gone though all of this for what just to get a bridle on when the groom was able to do this yes it took time but she done it!!!!! I wonder what mental damage it has done to him now!! 

Dont say there wont be any because there will be,maybe pp should experince the same treatment as what the horse has with they fears!!!! 

I am a open person who looks at different things and will cernty not be following this load of s*** !!!!!!!!


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## Sarah1 (13 July 2010)

shutterfoto said:



			If I would have scared the **** out of you like you claim he did with this horse, would you be willing to stand with me in a relaxed way and even enjoy being with me? I don't think so
		
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I read a very interesting article in a popular equestrian magazine many years ago about how horses, following extensive bad treatment from humans, can actually become quieter and more accepting rather than more aggressive and unyielding - they basically turn into robots and become numb.  People often mistake this as submission and I suppose in a way it is but it's a more negative type of submission and not the sort of thing I think any proper horseperson would desire.

I'm not saying this is or isn't the case with Catwalk but it's something to think about...

ETS - Pat had food at the end didn't he when Catwalk seemed very 'interested' in being around him...?


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## spaniel (13 July 2010)

I truly think that Pat and Linda totally underestimate the experience and intelligence of riders,  breeders and owners in the UK.

We are not, on the whole, impressed with overt showmanship.

It hasnt worked in the USA guys.....it aint gonna work here.

Please,  give it up and find something else to do.


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## KS1 (13 July 2010)

ester said:



			I still think it is pretty poor that the vet said that catwalk was not to be used the following day but that PP was still allowed to work on him behind the scenes. It should have been one or the other IMO if it was physical injury that the vet was making the decision for.
		
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It keeps being mentioned that the vet saw small cuts in Catwalks gum line, can someone point me on the right direction as to where this is officially stated and not just a post from someone on here.

It has been mentioned on FB that the vet did not find any such cuts so before I make any judgement I'd like to be proven which statement is correct.

That's if anyone can be bothered, something tells me not....  but as its being highlighted on here I'd like those that keep mentioning it to show me where the vet reports on this


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## Weezy (13 July 2010)

QR:

Oh FFS, please stop with the whole *the stallion is a killer* line, it is really beginning to pee me off.  ANY horse, even the cute pony in your garden is a possible killer, jeez, I am a possibly killer, doesn't mean I am going to go and kill someone, gargh.

Catwalk was, IMO, the epitome of well behaved - at any time he could have kicked out with his forelegs, but he did not, rear legs, but did not - in fact the only thing he did do was rear to get himself away from the man who was making him feel uncomfortable!


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## Caledonia (13 July 2010)

shutterfoto said:



			If I would have scared the **** out of you like you claim he did with this horse, would you be willing to stand with me in a relaxed way and even enjoy being with me? I don't think so.
		
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Have you never heard of Stockholm Syndrome ?

As for the rest of your post, if you thought that horse was trying to kill PP, then no wonder the Parelli worshippers claim he's turned rounds loads of 'killers'. 

Complete and utter stupidity - I have never read such ignorant claptrap.


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## ester (13 July 2010)

maybe... if pat thought his life was in danger he could have put a hat on ... you know.. if he thought it was that bad. 

KS1 where would the vet officially report on that? I don't see that it would necessarily be made public written knowledge as far as the vet is concerned.


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## spaniel (13 July 2010)

Has anyone clarified the ownership of Catwalk....is he in fact actually owned by Robert or is there a syndicate/owner/leasor somewhere?


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## JenJ (13 July 2010)

ester said:



			maybe... if pat thought his life was in danger he could have put a hat on ... you know.. if he thought it was that bad.
		
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*snorts* 

If it weren't for the sorry subject, this thread would actually be hilarious.


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## Cluny (13 July 2010)

Sarah1 said:



			I read a very interesting article in a popular equestrian magazine many years ago about how horses, following extensive bad treatment from humans, can actually become quieter and more accepting rather than more aggressive and unyielding - they basically turn into robots and become numb.  People often mistake this as submission and I suppose in a way it is but it's a more negative type of submission and not the sort of thing I think any proper horseperson would desire.

I'm not saying this is or isn't the case with Catwalk but it's something to think about...

ETS - Pat had food at the end didn't he when Catwalk seemed very 'interested' in being around him...?
		
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This is so true Sarah1.  A horse's way of coping with abuse is to 'shut down' they retreat into themselves, it is a sort of self preservation, it's also seen in humans too.  I have seen quite a few horses like this and have owned a few (one was imported from a Polish SJ yard, I won't tell you what they did to him but it was horrific) and my heart goes out to them.  

I find the best way to deal with them, after having had them thoroughly checked for any pain issues, is with baby steps.  I work hard on gaining their trust, which takes as long as it takes, and then I start with small things and work up from there.  If a horse tells me that it's had enough or doesn't understand what I'm asking of it, then I listen and either I stop what I'm doing and do something else, or I go a few steps back in it's education, because if the horse can't cope with what I'm asking it to do, then there is a gap in the work that I've done beforehand, which I need to go back and correct.

I find PP's actions with Catwalk thoroughly repulsive, I also find them even more reprehensible as he did it in front of an audience, so that those who were impressionable went away thinking well if 'he' did it, the great PP, then it must be OK.

I'm sure the gum line strap will soon be available from the Parelli shop for the reasonable price of £150 very soon, so you too can try this at home!!!!


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## AengusOg (13 July 2010)

Sarah1 said:



			I read a very interesting article in a popular equestrian magazine many years ago about how horses, following extensive bad treatment from humans, can actually become quieter and more accepting rather than more aggressive and unyielding - they basically turn into robots and become numb.  People often mistake this as submission and I suppose in a way it is but it's a more negative type of submission and not the sort of thing I think any proper horseperson would desire.

I'm not saying this is or isn't the case with Catwalk but it's something to think about...
		
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Bad handling/treatment of horses is invariably met with resistance from the horse. That should be the handler's signal that too much pressure is unacceptable to the horse, and the handler should modify his approach.

With PNH, the trend seems to be for the handler to increase the pressure and become confrontational, rather than seek an alternative. When the horse is forced to become compliant, and is denied relief, his only recource is to switch off and become resigned to his inability to get away.

That's why PNH-trained horses very often have that far-away, empty look in their eyes as they go through the motions of their circus training.


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## soloequestrian (13 July 2010)

It's called 'learned helplessness'.


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## Natch (13 July 2010)

Ponydentist




			Ifg you are crazy enough to think that he would wilfully abuse a horse.....tell me your reasons right here and now.
		
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Maybe his ego is bigger than we previously thought. 




			Pat Parelli....like him or loathe him...is a MASTER HORSEMAN of this world
		
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I would say with the recent evidence that this is opinion not fact




			He does not need to comit professional suicide in such a manner.
		
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I agree. He could have approached this horse so differently.




			There are people in this world whos "horse life" extends to owning a few horse and having a few horsey friends and no further than that.....and such people are in no position whatsoever to criticise one of the worlds greatest horsemen because they are just simply not in the same league.
		
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This is hero worship, surely? "he can't be wrong because he's famous and done lots of good things. We minions can't see hypocricy or cruelty because we aren't as experienced as him". I don't agree.




			EVERY single thing that he did to that horse on that night was done for a reason with a rationale learned, honed and practiced for years with absolute proven results....And i mean everything that was done.
		
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And you a minion like the rest of us? Or are you an amazing superhero horseman too?


Shutterfoto:




			It's very simple though, this horse was trying to kill him and if he wouldn't have done what he has done with the horse (and risk his life), this horse might have put quite a number of people in the hospital and even worse, he might have killed some too.
		
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Ok so I wasn't there, but yours is the ONLY report which says this horse was trying to kill him. The video evidence (cropped as it may be) also shows no evidence that the horse was trying to kill him. Please could you come back and tell us what the signs were that the horse was trying to kill him?




			he did it was with precision and premeditation, that is a very clear sign of domination, a bit like a kungfu master in action, and the only thing that was of interest to him was getting rid of Pat, either alive or not alive.
		
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As above, thats absolutely not what anybody (either pro or anti PP) else has reported, nor is it shown in either pro or anti videos. What is shown by both is a horse trying to get AWAY from PP.

In all fairness, having watched all the relevant videos, I don't see any evidence that it is as bad as I first thought, _however_ I maintain that PP was a true hypocryte and furthermore should remove any association with "natural horsemanship" from all the parelli branded stuff. I would also add that not only could the "gum twitch" cause injury, but the rope around the horse's leg is seen as being around the back of his knee. Those who know a little about the anatomy of a horse's leg know that there are tendons, ligaments and vital veins and arteries in this area, running close to the surface of the skin and not protected by fat or muscle. I ask you, is it really a good idea to run a rope (with what, 1" diameter) around that part of a horse's anatomy, knowing that it is likely to have a huge amount of pressure exerted on it if the horse resists? not to mention the very real possibility of rope burns. I still have the scar on my arm from a parelli rope burn 8 months ago when I tried to catch someone else's horse who had got loose.

All naturally? All for the greater good? Give it a rest.


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## MontyandZoom (13 July 2010)

Erm  'trying to kill him' 

What a load of b0ll0cks! If a horse tries to kill you, there is VERY little you could do to stop it!!!!!!!

All I can see is a very frightened horse trying to remove itself from a very distressing situation. Do you think that if they let him loose, the horse would attack PP or run away??!


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## martlin (13 July 2010)

Just been musing a bit, wondering now if somebody could tell me...
Catwalk has 'extreme' bridling issues - to my mind, that would mean nearly impossible to bridle, either afraid of the headpiece or the bit.
So, they obviously managed to put a halter on him as they brought him into the arena, no? 
As far as I could see from the poor quality of the videos, there was no major issues with putting the gum line in...
So what IS the bridling problem? WHAT makes it so horrendously difficult that it justifies submitting the poor creature to hours of 'curing' in front of the public? Tying it down, twitching, berating it etc?


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## lillith (13 July 2010)

I am not massively experienced with difficult horses but I have worked with antsy riding school ponies who don't like being bridled and will shake their heads when you try to handle their ears and even rear if they are pushed far enough. Where they trying to kill me? what would you have thought if you had seen me wretling them into their bridles with a gum line and a leg tied up?

I really did not see any agression in the clips, the horse was trying to get away and unhappy but at no point made any forwards agressive movements. 

On and I have worked with a few stallions, some young. You know what? the most difficult horse I have ever worked with was a mare. Dangerous too. The stallions were sweet as pie, as long as I asked them politely they would respond politely. If they didn't a growl was enough. The only one different was a highland who needed firm handling. I suppose I am evil though for booting in the chest an obnoxious tank because I am not a 'great horseman'. If I was I could have stuck a gum line on him and never been stood on again and it would have been fine.


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## MrsD (13 July 2010)

This is what was written by the PNH team after the demo (taken from nh dg)

*Our challenging horse lived up to its billing tonight at the Royal Featival of The Horse demo. Catwalk, an extremely Left-Brain stallion showed us his wonderful spirit and demonstrated that his unwillingness to bridle hasn't been created during the 8 weeks that Robert Whitaker has owned him but is clearly due to many years of fear of being bridled due to the lack of a basic foundation training. 

We ran 45 minutes over and a couple of folks were upset at what they think they saw, saying they may post on YouTube. We all have nothing to worry about except misunderstanding. Pat stopped at an appropriate time in the training process when he saw a breakthrough and preserved Catwalk's dignity, which is more important than getting the bridle on tonight. 

Tomorrow morning we meet again with Robert to continue Catwalk's foundation training to enable him to begin to trust humans. 

We'll keep you posted on Catwalk's progress over the next few weeks which will help those that don't understand see the fruits of passive persistence.*


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## skint1 (13 July 2010)

AengusOg said:



			I have no time for Parelli. I haven't read all the pages in this thread and, due to my only having primitive dial-up, I cannot spare the time to watch the videos.

However, it seems to me that Mr P has, again, in his efforts to amaze the world and sell his wares, gone and bitten off more than he can chew.

My seven year old son already knows that there are no quick fixes for the unfortunate horses in this world for whom an association with humans has meant pain, fear, and coercion. He has watched me work with horses and recognises that time, patience, and repetition are necessary tools in the horse-training box, and that haste, force, and impatience cause problems.

There is no way that this horse of RW's could have been 'cured' of such an obviously deep-seated problem within the time constraints of a demonstration, so why did he take it on under those circumstances?

PNH has done itself much damage recently. The eyes of the world are upon it, and not for the reasons hoped for by Mr and Mrs P. The PNH control room tells us that all is well within the empire, and that the non-believers failing to see the bigger picture will not topple them from their pedestal which is amply supported by the adoration of its homage-paying supporters.

We'll see.
		
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Wish I knew how to use the emoticons on this site, but very much in agreement with this. If someone had told me I was going to an NH demo I would not have expected to see those particular methods being used. From watching the video it was almost like a demo of what to do to get a bridle on when you're under some pressure and haven't got time to deal with it properly.

I guess Catwalk has a hole in his basic training. I assume he's talented or the Whittakers wouldn't own him, wouldn't it have been a wiser use of resources to have a professional address the problem more thoroughly over a longer period of time? I know there isn't much time in serious competition yards for that kind of thing but it might have been more worth it in the end imho.


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## Kaylum (13 July 2010)

having read what these gadgets actually do i.e. the gum line which I have never seen before I am shocked and that horse is a damm brave or more like very scared one letting anyone bridle him if he think he will get that treatment.


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## ShowJumperBeckii (13 July 2010)

i was wondering whats the fuss?
watched the video on youtube and now im P*** off 
group on facebook about it too

its ment to be natural so why cant they keep it that way


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## Tempi (13 July 2010)

To be honest, ive watched most of the videos and i dont see what the fuss is about.  The horse did get a bit upset, but i didnt see anything as dramatic as some people have commented in this post.  Ive used the rope around the back of the leg thing on my horse as she used to be a proper pain for the dentist and my EDT suggested we tried it.  Worked wonders on her although she wasnt particularly impressed to start with.  Im not cruel to any of my horses and would never do anything to hurt any of them.  I really dont see the problem here...........


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## Elsbells (13 July 2010)

rushyj said:



			Thank you at last a Parelli follower attempting to explain rather than assume we don't understand.  If Rob is now competing this horse I assume he has had a bridle on in the past has he had any fatalities due to this horse in the past using non Parelli methods?

I will agree to completely disagree.
		
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Well said!!


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## Cinnamontoast (13 July 2010)

'misunderstanding'

Really? Again with the 'you lot just don't understand what we were doing' nonsense. Yeah, clearly we're all so thick we can't get it and they are therefore special. Whatever!


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## JanetGeorge (13 July 2010)

shutterfoto said:



			It's very simple though, this horse was trying to kill him and if he wouldn't have done what he has done with the horse (and risk his life), this horse might have put quite a number of people in the hospital and even worse, he might have killed some too.
		
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I wasn't t the demo so can only comment on the various videos I've seen.  NONE of them show the stallion trying to kill Pat!  I've worked with two stallions who HAVE tried to kill me (one had allegedly killed 3 stud grooms in his life!) - and they didn't behave like that!  They came right at you, mouths open, ears flat back, SCREAMING in rage!

One (an old stallion)had definitely been abused and had scars to prove it -the other was an ill-disciplined 3 year old from 'bad' bloodlines.  The youngster was finally gelded - the old stallion could be handled with considerable care and tactbutwas NEVER 'safe'!  Either - on PP's performance inthat video - would have had him on the floor and NOT let him up!


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## Natch (13 July 2010)

JanetGeorge said:



			I've worked with two stallions who HAVE tried to kill me (one had allegedly killed 3 stud grooms in his life!) - and they didn't behave like that!  They came right at you, mouths open, ears flat back, SCREAMING in rage!
		
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Agree. I heard an account (well, several people's accounts) of a heavy horse breeder whose stallion tried to kill him (daft bugger didn't wear any safety clothing, not even gloves, and was teasing a mare with a frustrated stallion at the time) was that the stallion screamed at him and picked him up by his shoulder. (someone else on this thread cites a similar incident). The fact that this bloke went and got a metal bar and attacked the horse with it half a dozen times isn't exactly an example of good practice either, but my point is I don't think there would be ANY DOUBT by ANYONE if the stallion meant to harm PP, whatever his intentions.


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## spaniel (13 July 2010)

Thank you Janet.  Voice of experience and common sense. 

The levels of total ignorance shown in some of these pro threads is astonishing.  Anyone who has genuinely seen aggression in stallions will know that it is terrifying to watch and unlike any other horse behaviour.


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## skint1 (13 July 2010)

Do horses purposely set out to kill people, as in, was Catwalk thinking "I'm gonna choke that fella on his own mustache if he comes near me again!" or is it a case of the horse acting out of fear or under the influence of hormones and a person being in the wrong place/wrong time?


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## R2R (13 July 2010)

Tempi &#8211; I actually posted yesterday about using force on a horse when needed &#8211; I think peoples issue is that Parelli has become somewhat like a cult and is often practiced by very novice horsepeople, and the worry is  what affect this will have for horsemanship in general. 

Considering many cant seem to see the difference between a scared horse and dangerous, out to kill horse, I don&#8217;t hold much hope.


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## Elsbells (13 July 2010)

I would just like to say that the worst of what went on that night has sadly as yet, not been shown on youtube. When PP was wrestleing the stallion to the ground and pulling as hard as he could on the gumline and forceing Catwalks face to the floor, all eyes were on the shocking sight and I doubt that there was one person there in the audiance able to reach for a camera. I wish I could bring it alive for you all as it is quite simply unbelievable unless you had been there, so much so, that both my friend and I didn't even look at each other but sat transfixed in disbelief. We were absolutley transfixed. Later, we confessed at the time that we had both questioned our gut feelings. It couldn't be happening, there must be a good reason, we wern't seeing it??? And all because this man was THE horseman,.... someone my friend revvered and a man I'd admired although never seen. 

It did happen. We did see it. And I was sickened. 

Yes I was there when the grinning PP and head hung RW were confronted, but I know they just looked down on us as silly little women who had a few ponies as pets and were not to be taken seriously or respected, not like the great Pat Parelli and the wonderfully talented and clever Robert Whittaker deserve.

Just give them their money back and send them on their way, back to their smallholdings their fat ponies, cats and chickens and get on with the business of making money.

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!


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## R2R (13 July 2010)

Did noone speak up WHILST the demo was going on? As in, shout?


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## Amymay (13 July 2010)

R2R said:



			Did noone speak up WHILST the demo was going on? As in, shout?
		
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This is what puzzles me to be honest. Whilst the BHS were not there in any official capacity - the show organisers were.  Did no one go directly to them and demand it be stopped.


Anyway I've had a very swift response from the BHS, who have confirmed that the vet did inspect the horse and would not let him be used in the demonstration again.

It would seem that the incident _is_ being investigated.


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## R2R (13 July 2010)

Well thats good. 

I blinking hate Parelli but think retrospect is a wonderful thing - I know for sure if I was there and it is as bad as people have said  I would have left kicking and screaming standing on my chair calling the man cruel - not waiting for it to end then having a chat with the mustached wonder himself.


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## spaniel (13 July 2010)

Im with R2R...I would have been the one screaming 'NO'.


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## Halfstep (13 July 2010)

Slightly off on a tangent, but isn't it possible, indeed likely, that this horse has a medical problem such as aural plaques that makes him so unhappy to be bridled. He doesn't seem aggressive in the videos, just unwilling to let them at his ears! I'd have him checked out by a vet before letting anyone try to change his behaviour.....

And I'm no Parelli fan (that video of Linda and the blind horse is unacceptable) but actually I didn't see much off with the Stoneleigh videos either.  Don't like their whole marketing to inexperienced horsepeople stick, but this is turning into a typical HHO witchhunt "what should I be appalled by today" type thing.


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## Natch (13 July 2010)

amymay said:



			Anyway I've had a very swift response from the BHS, who have confirmed that the vet did inspect the horse and would not let him be used in the demonstration again.

It would seem that the incident _is_ being investigated.
		
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I would have heckled him! Although to be honest I know the feeling of sitting feeling annoyed and confused whilst you watch a horse in distress, not doing anything because a) the person is supposed to be a pro, and b) you're waiting for it all to make sense with an explaination 

Amymay do you think there is any point in the rest of us emailing the BHS, or any other societies, or would we just be innundating them when they are already on the case? I suppose the important people who should contact them are those who were there.

Before I saw your post I PM'd BHS_Lee, asking him to read this thread, and advise us on if the BHS is investigating, and if there is anything any of us can do. I have also asked him to comment on this thread if he feels he is able to, but we must respect the fact that the BHS is a professional organisation who may not wish to comment until they know the full facts and both sides of a story.


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## SophieRIDSH (13 July 2010)

skint1 said:



			Do horses purposely set out to kill people, as in, was Catwalk thinking "I'm gonna choke that fella on his own mustache if he comes near me again!"
		
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On RARE occasions, yes, and it's unmistakable.  See it once and you will have nightmares.

Catwalk (at least not in the videos I saw) was no where near that place.  At first he was saying "I don't want my face and ears messed with"  And it looked like PP actually got him to accept that.

IMHO he should have quit there.  

An experienced horseperson would have realized that significant progress had been made and could be built upon in the future.

But no, ego prevailed and that bridle was going on that horse no matter what and events spun out of control.

At that point the demo became dangerous because Catwalk wanted OUT of the situation.  I at least never saw him act with intent to harm but a handler or spectator certainly could have been hurt had they gotten in the horse's way.

In addition to the unnecessary distress caused to the horse my main objection to a demo like this the fact that some of the hero worshipers don't understand (Oh, that's what they say about us) that what they saw was DANGEROUS and try this out at home.


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## Red30563 (13 July 2010)

Halfstep said:



			Don't like their whole marketing to inexperienced horsepeople stick, but this is turning into a typical HHO witchhunt "what should I be appalled by today" type thing.  

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I don't see it as a witch hunt at all and it's not an 'H & H' thing. Every horse forum I have looked at in the past few days has threads about this.


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## eahotson (13 July 2010)

What I don't understand is that one post said Robert had left the horse with Pat for further 'training?' and another says he is now out competing at shows(note the plural).


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## spaniel (13 July 2010)

Red30563 said:



			I don't see it as a witch hunt at all and it's not an 'H & H' thing. Every horse forum I have looked at in the past few days has threads about this.
		
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Red I have checked 6 international sites with intelligent discussion forums (in the same vein as this one) and without exception the reaction to what happened has been the same.  Both from anti PP and from followers of PP the majority are shocked and horrified to  hear whats been going on here.

On the US sites there has been a major turning away from P and LP and thats not just as a reaction to this latest incident,  its been going on a while now and opinion seems to be that they are losing ground over there which is why they are buddying up to the BHS and having a big marketing push over here.


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## KS1 (13 July 2010)

ester said:



			maybe... if pat thought his life was in danger he could have put a hat on ... you know.. if he thought it was that bad. 

KS1 where would the vet officially report on that? I don't see that it would necessarily be made public written knowledge as far as the vet is concerned.
		
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I only asked as people seem happy to post that the vet saw cuts, where did they hear this, was it gossip or actual wording from the vet. I get fed up with people adding there two bits worth when they do not have the facts.

Which is why I have asked them to back what they are sayins by showing me where this is stated and not just from another poster but from a reliable source. Unless I read this I don't believe it.

It's like getting a newspaper and reading loads of hearsay then next day reading an apology from the paper for incorrect footage.  

It's amazing how so mnay people add things that were not even mentioned or is true, but if this claim is true then I'd like to see it from the horses mouth so to speak and not from gossip threads. Then I will beleive it.


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## eahotson (13 July 2010)

I have contacted the BHS and am awaiting a reply.Shouldn't we all also complain to the BSJA.The sight of one of their top riders standing by and watching his horse being treated like this is not, surely, the image they wish to convey.


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## ester (13 July 2010)

KS1 did you see amymays post re her reply from the BHS?


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## KS1 (13 July 2010)

amymay said:



			Anyway I've had a very swift response from the BHS, who have confirmed that the vet did inspect the horse and would not let him be used in the demonstration again.
It would seem that the incident _is_ being investigated.
		
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Where is the proof of this statement, so many statements but nothing to back them up, so unless shown otherwise I don't believe it.


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## ester (13 July 2010)

ah ok, might I suggest you email the BHS yourself then? amymay cant really let everyone have her email log in so they can see it


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## LucyPriory (13 July 2010)

I emailed the BHS - this is their reply.

Dear All, 



Thank you for your emails to the BHS regarding the recent Parelli demonstration at the Festival of the Horse. It probably wont surprise you to learn that we have received an extremely large number of emails concerning this and I apologise for the fact that I cannot respond to each one of them individually. I hope that this group email will contain the information that you asked for (please note you have been blind copied in on this so your email address will not be seen by other recipients). 



I think I need to make it clear that nobody was officially representing the BHS at the demonstration. This means that we have no first hand knowledge of what went on and are having to rely on accounts from others. I am aware that there is video footage in existence but what I have seen is poor quality and it is quite hard to determine exactly what was going on. What I can tell you is that when a concerned individual made a complaint to a member of BHS staff on our stand at the Festival, that BHS staff member arranged for a vet to inspect Catwalk. As a consequence of this Catwalk was not allowed to take part in any subsequent demos. There is no more that could have been done at the time as we were not the show organisers and had no specific remit over what went on. The member of staff concerned is not part of the welfare team but acted exceptionally quickly and took absolutely the most appropriate action available to her.



Further than this I cannot comment on this particular incident. As I assume you will understand it is not (for many reasons) appropriate or useful to discuss individual ongoing welfare investigations. 



What I can say is that the BHS recognises that there is room for many different schools of horsemanship. Whichever one an individual chooses to follow it is important to retain an open mind and be receptive to other ideas. However, whichever methods are employed we do not consider it acceptable to cause pain, fear or unnecessary distress to a horse. We are also very much anti the use of unnecessary equipment and would stress the importance of maintaining human and equine safety as the paramount concerns at all times. 



If you would like to discuss this further please do not hesitate to contact me directly although please bear in mind that I am out of the office at meetings until Friday. 



Yours



Lee



Lee Hackett

Senior Executive, Welfare

Tel: 01926 707804


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## baymareb (13 July 2010)

I think it's telling that the only defenses that have been made of all this fall into some narrow categories.

1.  "You don't understand what you saw." Patronizing and unhelpful since those offering it admit they can't explain it either (but accept it because they realize they haven't reached the appropriate "level" to do so).

2. The end justifies the means.  This has never been convincing to me anyway but especially not when those means appear to go against the methods put forth by the P's as correct (not using force or mechanics).

3. You see worse things at shows among hunter/jumper/dressage/pony club (insert your discipline of choice) every day.  Again, not convincing and pointless.  No one is watching a demo of a child beating her pony in an expectation that they will learn something and frankly, if I saw someone on the back lot of a show treating a horse as Catwalk was treated, I would report it to show authorities.

4. The video didn't look that bad.  This depends upon point of view.  Since the demo was marketed as an example of NH techniques, which are supposed to offer a more natural approach that works with the horse's instincts and understanding, I would call it a flat failure.  Plus the eyewitness accounts and the vet's refusal to allow the horse to be used the following day speak to more severe use.

5. It's better than the horse going to the dogs.  Nowhere have I seen any indication that this would have happened if the horse continued to be difficult to bridle.  More likely, the grooms would have continued to spend 10 minutes working to get a bridle on before a competition.

6. THE HORSE WAS TRYING TO KILL HIM!!!  IT WAS A LIFE AND DEATH STRUGGLE!!!  MAN AGAINST BEAST!!!  HE WAS LUCKY TO GET OUT ALIVE!!!

I think I'll just leave that last alone.


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## Ziggy_ (13 July 2010)

I've never met a Parelli person so in general I stay away from these threads. I did read a few magazine articles and thought it looked interesting, but my interest waned rapidly when I realised I'd have to part with £££ if I wanted to learn any more.

However, having seen the Linda video, the Catwalk video and the 'loading' video, I can honestly say the man is an absolute moron. I've never seen a less effective way of dealing with a problem loader than twirling a rope at it and making it jump the ramp repeatedly. And as for Linda battering the one-eyed horse round the head....

It amazes me that anyone can describe this guy as a wonderful horseman. He's clueless.

As for the Parelli followers, it would be funny if it wasn't faintly disturbing. The way they all say the same thing - use the same phrases - you'd be forgiven for thinking it was one person with ten usernames. And yet they insist they aren't brainwashed!! I find it almost incomprehensible that people actually fall for this guy and his bullsh*t.


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## Sit_Up (13 July 2010)

KS1 said:



			I only asked as people seem happy to post that the vet saw cuts, where did they hear this, was it gossip or actual wording from the vet. I get fed up with people adding there two bits worth when they do not have the facts.

Which is why I have asked them to back what they are sayins by showing me where this is stated and not just from another poster but from a reliable source. Unless I read this I don't believe it.
		
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This is from earlier on in the thread: Post 600 OldRed

We then decided to speak to PP and ask him why he was doing this to Catwalk. We went to the back of the arena and when PP came out asked to see inside Catwalk&#8217;s mouth. He peeled back his top lip and there was bright red lesion. After putting forward our views for 10 to 15 minutes (!) and yes, we were now incensed, PP apologised for upsetting us and asked what could he do? We all said, please, just never do this to another horse ever again. The reports of the other posters who were there with PP are correct. We were then given our money back.

The next day we went to the BHS stand and asked if a vet could look at Catwalk as he was due to be used again in a demo and we wanted him checked. The BHS phoned the organisers (Festival of the Horse) who arranged for a vet to look at Catwalk. Within a hour or so the vet reported back via the BHS rep that he had examined Catwalk, yes, there was a lesion and that Catwalk would not be used in the demo the next day. (Alice Bell, Festival of the Horse 02476 858276 and Andrea Jackman, BHS 01686 627050).


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## Natch (13 July 2010)

Sit_Up said:



			Within a hour or so the vet reported back via the BHS rep that he had examined Catwalk, yes, there was a lesion and that Catwalk would not be used in the demo the next day. (Alice Bell, Festival of the Horse 02476 ****** and Andrea Jackman, BHS 01686 ******).
		
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Might I suggest that for kindness sake, people would be better off emailing these people rather than ringing them? Or even better, accepting the copied and pasted email that has been posted on here?

They must be innundated. Let these poor people get on with their jobs!


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## Tempi (13 July 2010)

R2R said:



			Tempi  I actually posted yesterday about using force on a horse when needed  I think peoples issue is that Parelli has become somewhat like a cult and is often practiced by very novice horsepeople, and the worry is  what affect this will have for horsemanship in general. 

Considering many cant seem to see the difference between a scared horse and dangerous, out to kill horse, I dont hold much hope.
		
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Ah ok, ive not read all the posts as i do have work to do, lol!!


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## Amymay (13 July 2010)

KS1 said:



			Where is the proof of this statement, so many statements but nothing to back them up, so unless shown otherwise I don't believe it.
		
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KS1 I have had an email from the BHS stating that the horse was seen by a vet and not allowed to be part of the demonstration.   I'm not sure it is permissible for me to post it on here.  But if you correspond directly with them, Lee Hackett is sending out responses very quickly.


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## alliersv1 (13 July 2010)

shutterfoto said:



			Hi everyone, I especially registered to this forum so that I could answer to this thread.
I understand that some people are appaled or disgusted by what they saw and do not believe that Pat and Linda are true horsemen. I however have a completely different opinion and would at least like to share it with you. I don't really care if this changes your mind or not, you are free to believe whatever you want, but I believe in them, all the way!
Here is what I experienced:
Pat usually always comments while he is playing with or teaching horses so it helps the spectator to make sense of what it is he is doing.
This time was very very different. I don't know how many of you actually have experience with Stallions to start with (like some stallions actually kill sick foals by biting their necks, it's hard but it's nature in it's simplest form, survival of the fittest), but this particular stallion was in the top 3 of Pat's most difficult horses he has ever met in his lifelong carreer. This lead to him  to put music on so he could concentrate on the horse rather than on the public. Of course this gave a gap for the spectators and created room for misinterpretation.
It's very simple though, this horse was trying to kill him and if he wouldn't have done what he has done with the horse (and risk his life), this horse might have put quite a number of people in the hospital and even worse, he might have killed some too. 
People tend to forget that horses can be extremely dangerous when overconfident or when scared, young kids get killed every year by horses, same with adults.
At a certain stage, horses can become so sick of a certain treatement and they simply go on strike, that's what this horse did. I read that a lot of you were saying he was scared, but if you read the signs, the body language of the horse, you will see that he was not scared (though difficult to see as the video has a very bad quality), he was an over condifent horse on adrenaline, he hardly moved during the whole thing and when he did it was with precision and premeditation, that is a very clear sign of domination, a bit like a kungfu master in action, and the only thing that was of interest to him was getting rid of Pat, either alive or not alive. 
What Pat was doing, was not scaring the horse, but convincing him that he would persist and not give up like many other people would have. He tried different techniques to get into the mind of the horse rather than to his body. Some of the techniques did not work, but in the end he managed to get into the horses mind and was able to convince him.
If you look at the very short video of the work that was done after friday you'll see that this horse is nowhere near scared of Pat, on the contrary, this horse is very relaxed and loves being with him. And not to mention, they are able to bridle him now easily and he even won a competition this weekend!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8j25pS6ixWk&feature=related

If I would have scared the **** out of you like you claim he did with this horse, would you be willing to stand with me in a relaxed way and even enjoy being with me? I don't think so.

Kind Regards all
		
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Are you on drugs?


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## Cinnamontoast (13 July 2010)

alliersv1 said:



			Are you on drugs?
		
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PMSL! Hello hun!


Where exactly was the horse trying to 'kill' Pat, Shutterfoto? The bit where he backed away from him?! Get real.


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## spottybotty (13 July 2010)

cinammontoast said:



			PMSL! Hello hun!


Where exactly was the horse trying to 'kill' Pat, Shutterfoto? The bit where he backed away from him?! Get real.
		
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Didn`t you know he was "playing" with him!


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## Miss.Geek (13 July 2010)

Ziggy_ said:



			However, having seen the Linda video, the Catwalk video and the 'loading' video, I can honestly say the man is an absolute moron. I've never seen a less effective way of dealing with a problem loader than twirling a rope at it and making it jump the ramp repeatedly. And as for Linda battering the one-eyed horse round the head....

It amazes me that anyone can describe this guy as a wonderful horseman. He's clueless.
		
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I can't believe the videos I have seen today. I never really have been interested in him and his 'theories'. Quite a few people have been telling me I should do the natural horsemanship thing with one I am bringing on the the moment as they had done some with him in the past.

I can tell you now he is learning far more with me than he had with the NH method. I don't hit him, I always use positive reinforcements and I would never ever dream of hitting him over the head or with a rope. I love horses I could never hurt them and scare them like I have seen in the videos!


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## alliersv1 (13 July 2010)

cinammontoast said:



			PMSL! Hello hun!


Where exactly was the horse trying to 'kill' Pat, Shutterfoto? The bit where he backed away from him?! Get real.
		
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Hello!
Sorry, I had to mince over from the fluffy side for this one!
I cannot believe the level of brainwashing and blind acceptance going on with these people!


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## alwaysbroke (13 July 2010)

Parelli devotees may say I dont understand, after reading and viewing this tread and associated videos, the only thing I understand is that I would not let that man, or his wife within a mile of our head shy, difficult to bridle ex racer. It has taken us years to undo the harm that previous ear twitching has caused, and yes the poor girl still has her issues, but I believe our mare and the people who handle her have reached an understanding, its called trust in each other.

On a lighter note this has got to be one of the most viewed/posted on threads I have ever seen, whats the betting it makes/doesnt make H&H top ten this week


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## winterwood (13 July 2010)

PolarSkye said:



			See, I just don't understand this . . . 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwYAn4IH918

I really don't see the link between what PP was doing (swinging that rope at the mare's shoulder) and what he was asking from the horse (go into the trailer) . . . I'm no great horsewoman, but I saw a confused horse.  It seemed to me that he kept "asking" the same question over and over again with little or no effect on the what/how the horse behaved (aside from avoidance).  

If I ask Kali a question and it becomes clear that he isn't responding in the way that I want either because he's being stubborn, or scared, or because he's confused (or just plain "stuck"), it's my responsibility to figure out another way to ask the question.  Surely, asking the same question in the same way over and over and always getting avoidance just teaches avoidance?  Or am I being really thick?  And what about rewarding "the try" . . . and giving the horse time to have a think . . . until tomorrow perhaps?  

Really, really confused.

P
		
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Very good point. 
The Parelli 'system' seems to encourage different levels of pressure. Start off at 1 (light pressure) and increase the pressure until you get a response. Leaves things open for abuse in my opinion. If the horse isn't understanding what is being asked, find another way of asking as polarskye says.
It's a bit like shouting in English at someone who doesn't understand the language. No matter how loud you shout it won't help.


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## Amymay (13 July 2010)

but this is turning into a typical HHO witchhunt "what should I be appalled by today" type thing
		
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I think there's been some really measured discussion actually.....


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## LucyPriory (13 July 2010)

My current horse was difficult to bridle - probably because a misguided soul tried some of the techniques in question.

Odd then that as a tree hugging fluffy bunny I can now bridle her without any problem at all.  And no not once did I resort to any kind of force/aggression/bullying.  I didn't use treats either.

Want to know how?  Wait I'll make a DVD and you can have one for a squillion quid.

But the truth is there is no money to be made from a bit of time and patience. Makes for a b. boring video too..........


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## Natch (13 July 2010)

winterwood said:



			Very good point. 
The Parelli 'system' seems to encourage different levels of pressure. Start off at 1 (light pressure) and increase the pressure until you get a response. Leaves things open for abuse in my opinion. If the horse isn't understanding what is being asked, find another way of asking as polarskye says.
It's a bit like shouting in English at someone who doesn't understand the language. No matter how loud you shout it won't help.
		
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I can't speak for the parelli system, only for others which are derived from the same roots.

The phases of pressure are nothing more and nothing less than somebody riding using their legs or voice aids. Compare it to me whispering to you "Winterwood, look over there". You don't respond to me, either because you couldn't hear me, or because you weren't paying attention to me, or maybe I was speaking French. If I don't ever raise my voice above a whisper, or change the language I am speaking, I will be reinforcing the response of not responding to my voice.

Most of us would agree that we always work towards getting the horse to respond to the lightest, but will go up to a kick or shout _if we need to_. I think it is important to be willing to go there if necessary, otherwise the horse will not take you seriously, and depending on its charachter (or horsenality ) may take the pee out of you.

A horse who doesn't understand should, in my opinion, and the opinion of others who practice NH, be rewarded for the _try_, whether its right or wrong, at least he is trying to understand and to work for not against you. Its just a fine balance between rewarding the try and inadvertedly teaching the wrong response.

If a horse can't even try for you, or isn't trying the right thing, you can ask in a different way, or break something down into its components.

Much the same as many people who aren't NH would do


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## Chestnuttymare (13 July 2010)

I must admit that I had never heard of or seen a gum line until this thread, i hope I never again. It is barbaric. I am apalled  that anyone who claims to love horses thinks that this method and the leg thing is natural or acceptable. 
I fail to see at what point in any of the video clips Catwalk was trying to kill PP, if anyone truly thinks this then it is they who do not understand equine body language. The horse was trying to escape him.

I am not anti anything, i have said before that it was a lady with parelli who helped me with my mare at the beginning. But the parelli that we did with this lady was absolutely nothing like the parelli I have seen over the past year from the great man and his wife. I would never have stood for a second and allowed my horse to be treated like this.

If Catwalk was one of the top 3 most difficult horses he has ever dealt with, then surely it should have been done over a longer period of time and not at a major equestrian event as a spectator sport.


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## KS1 (13 July 2010)

ester said:



			KS1 did you see amymays post re her reply from the BHS?
		
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No I haven't, can I make it clear here I am not taking sides, even with those on the Parelli site I will beleive what they say when I see the proof.

I guess I am so used to people making statements on forums that are totally fabricated thats its hard to fathom the truth from the hearsay.


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## LucyPriory (13 July 2010)

chestnuttymare said:



			Catwalk was one of the top 3 most difficult horses
		
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I agree with you that gum line et al are barbaric and have no place in the modern world.

But it has just occurred to me - if Catwalk is in the top 3 difficult for the great Mr P then perhaps he just ain't all that experienced after all.....

After all true experience is more than just a numbers game - whether that be numbers of horses dealt with or squillions of dollars gained in the marketing of dubious techniques.


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## Amymay (13 July 2010)

KS1 said:



			No I haven't, can I make ti clear here I am not taking sides, even with those on the Parelli site I will beleive what they say when I see the proof.

I guess I am so used to people making statements on forums that are totally fabricated thats its hard to fathom the truth from the hearsay.
		
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I wasn't comfortable posting my email reply from the BHS - however another poster has a few pages back, and they are the same........


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## martlin (13 July 2010)

KS1 said:



			No I haven't, can I make ti clear here I am not taking sides, even with those on the Parelli site I will beleive what they say when I see the proof.

I guess I am so used to people making statements on forums that are totally fabricated thats its hard to fathom the truth from the hearsay.
		
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I'm sorry, I have to ask:
If you have so little trust and find it so difficult to believe what others are posting, why do you bother with forums at all?


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## jodie3 (13 July 2010)

I was very confused by the loading clip, was he trying to teach the mare to jump the ramp?!
I didn't feel the mare understood at all what he wanted because he wasn't clear himself.  What does standing hitting - sorry - swinging the rope at your horse do?  
Also, the trailer he was using looked very rickety and not inviting for the mare at all.

Going back to Catwalk, so now we are to believe that he used a horse that was trying to kill him for a public demo?  If he is misreading the horse's body language that badly he should stick to rocking horses IMO.

And Pat Pepperoni!!! Brilliant, but how can I order from Dominos now without thinking of the awful PP, it will put me off eating it? Oh well, be good for the diet..................


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## KS1 (13 July 2010)

I've juist posted on the Savvy Forum about various issues and expect to get attacked by the hoards of those that think PNH is all there is for horses but I don't care. 

I guess I am just getting to the point of where I am tired of not getting answers to questions, tired of hearing those justify what they do instead of explaining their reasons.

It's scary seeing the levels becoming so easy that now level L4 is more like the old level 1, then you get people who have passed level 1 and 2 and suddenly think they are experts when in fact they only know half of what used to be in level 2.

It's scary that PNH is becoming more and more elitist

It's scary that changes are being made that don't make sense (such as the patteres being released last year and that I found out PP admitted they were a mistake and done the wrong way around)

It's scary that events take place that are scary.


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## eventer123 (13 July 2010)

If you just watch the video of him with the horse, fighting with the horse, you can see that there is nothing 'natural' about it.  It's just a big man trying to impose his will on the poor creature - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gf7w_1ifus


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## Serenity087 (13 July 2010)

I have to admit, I got bored about 40 pages of tripe ago.

What posters fail to admit is that whether they're pro parelli or anti parelli - they're all blinded to the reality.

That the best place to be is in the middle.  

I use NH, inspired by Kelly Marks and the two ponies I've trained with it.  I won't touch Parelli with a barge pole, I ain't financing some cowboy who talks the talk but stumbles the walk!  However, my horse comes first to the point where I can't ignore his suggestions.

I mean, okay, his supporters are blinded by devotion, but to what?  They'd never follow a man who produced a string of broken horses, would they!

However, have watched the video of Catwalk and I'm not impressed.  This is a man in a position of responsibility and he reverted to backwater techniques just to save face in a public sphere.  I am not entirely sure it was horse abuse, as it was a dodgey video, but it's certainly not a demo to be proud of!

I am curious, however, as to the RSPCA's responce.  We all know they're a bunch of wacked out hippies who will jump on any high profile bandwagon... would they be brave enough to go up against PP?????


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## KS1 (13 July 2010)

martlin said:



			I'm sorry, I have to ask:
If you have so little trust and find it so difficult to believe what others are posting, why do you bother with forums at all?
		
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That's just it, I rarely go on forums becuae of all the arguments, bitchiness, bad language and hearsay.

I only came back on as I was intrigued as to what was going to be said about the Demo.

I have to say though that this is the first time in a long time I have been on here and the posts are more constructive though there are still some that use bad language needlesly and voice strong opinions but heck at least the reading is more pleasureable.

The reason I say I will believe when I see reliable proof is because so many people make things up and idle gossip is damaging and it happens not just here but on all forums.

There is one forum I go on (non horsey) and so far its great, no swearing, no fabrications, no arguing, opinions accepted and not slandered, in fact it's just how a forum should be..   friendly with no hostility.


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## Bramley (13 July 2010)

LMR said:



			PP is not the only man who has dealt with problem horses. Seriously I think people have the right to question his methods as stated by other people he did not explain WHY. Surely at a demonstration where he is showing his methods he should EXPLAIN! I hope Parelli followers will one day wake up and see it for what it really is... a money making business!
		
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I was there and that poor horse showed not one bit of aggression at any time. I saw the tears in his mouth. I looked myself as Pat parelli lifted his lip. He was a very gentle horse who had been so tortured he just took it.


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## stencilface (13 July 2010)

Thanks for posting a link to the vid - I'm sure its been up before, but I haven't managed to get through all the pages.

To me, that is horrific and I am glad that people have written to the BHS etc.  I also hope it is true about them losing followers in the US, hopefully the UK will follow suit, and this man will go back to whatever stone he crawled from. 

Just awful, that poor horse. 

FWIW I am a follower of whatever method works without cruelty, and as I age (!) find myself more and more inclined to much softer ways of doing things, which comes with experience and education ime


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## SophieRIDSH (13 July 2010)

Naturally said:



			A horse who doesn't understand should, in my opinion, and the opinion of others who practice NH, be rewarded for the _try_, whether its right or wrong, at least he is trying to understand and to work for not against you. Its just a fine balance between rewarding the try and inadvertedly teaching the wrong response.

If a horse can't even try for you, or isn't trying the right thing, you can ask in a different way, or break something down into its components.

Much the same as many people who aren't NH would do 

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But P DIDN'T reward the try, or he would have quit a whole lot sooner


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## KS1 (13 July 2010)

Harper_Gal said:



			I ain't financing some cowboy who talks the talk but stumbles the walk!
		
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Love that quote


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## Bramley (13 July 2010)

I was at the demo and witnessed the abuse first hand. I confronted both Pat Parelli and Robert Whittaker and saw the cut caused by the gum line first hand. I would be more than happy to give evidence if a prossecution was taken up by any welfare body. As i am sure the Festival of the Horse vet would be.


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## Shrek-Eventing-SW (13 July 2010)

Regarding the person who said that Catwalk was going to *Kill* Pat, this video clip suggests that Catwalk was more scared than *killer horse material*.

http://www.youtube.com/user/TheMetalfreehorse#p/u/8/_VoliM9bxsY


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## stencilface (13 July 2010)

Poor horse.  Not really a killer in that vid is he.  Doesn't stand a chance


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## teddyt (13 July 2010)

MrsD said:



			This is what was written by the PNH team after the demo (taken from nh dg)

*Our challenging horse lived up to its billing tonight at the Royal Featival of The Horse demo. Catwalk, an extremely Left-Brain stallion showed us his wonderful spirit and demonstrated that his unwillingness to bridle hasn't been created during the 8 weeks that Robert Whitaker has owned him but is clearly due to many years of fear of being bridled due to the lack of a basic foundation training. 

We ran 45 minutes over and a couple of folks were upset at what they think they saw, saying they may post on YouTube. We all have nothing to worry about except misunderstanding. Pat stopped at an appropriate time in the training process when he saw a breakthrough and preserved Catwalk's dignity, which is more important than getting the bridle on tonight. 

Tomorrow morning we meet again with Robert to continue Catwalk's foundation training to enable him to begin to trust humans. 

We'll keep you posted on Catwalk's progress over the next few weeks which will help those that don't understand see the fruits of passive persistence.*

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Folks were upset at what they think they saw! Patronising or what???
.... will help those that dont understand! More patronsing drivel

And the biggest joke- we continue the foundation training to enable him to trust humans. Excuse me while i spit tea all over the keyboard.

Ive only read some of the 20+ pages but i watched one video clip and PP may not think i understand and thats his defence but that gravy train needs to be de-railed ASAP for the sake of the horses that are in his care.


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## KS1 (13 July 2010)

Not all of us that are Parelli paying students believe everything PP and LP do is gospel.
No human can get everything right all of the time..  and I too think the mistake at this demo was not stopping with the positive result of the bareback pad, I too would like to know the reasoning behind continuing after all we are always told to stop on a positive note.

I'd like to know wht teh gum line was used, I would have thought though still not right that it would be used on a bolshy dangerous horse. Catwalk to me was always calm, quiet and his only ishap was not wantign his ears touched but he still did not display and dangerous behaviours.

You could not have asked Catwalk to be more positive than he was at that moment and carrying on, all I saw was Catwalk get more stressed.

I'd hate to see what he would have done with my young horse, when he came to me he was so head shy he knocked me out once, today I can do anything with him and I never needed a 22 ft line or a gum line to help me.

As for people leaving PNH I have noticed that when I started Parelli 7 years ago the UK instructors have changed.


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## better half (13 July 2010)

'Monty Roberts would never and has never tied up a horse's leg. This, sacking out and swinging from a post, was one of the practices that he disagreed with his father about. 

When the film the Horse Whisperer was being made, he withdrew his support when the director insisted that the hero, whose character Nicholas Evans had developed after working with Monty, was required in the script to tie up a horse's leg and lay the horse down.

Monty will not inflict discomfort on a horse to get him to act out a behaviour he wants. He will use a buckstopper in very rare and extreme cases, where a bucking horse is about to lose its life or kill someone else. In this case Monty fits the buck stopper, it is loose, the horse inflicts the pressure momentarily if it tries to buck. He gives a very full explanation of how it works in From My Hands to Yours.'  from thread on page 50


The book 'The Horse Whisperer' thanks two great horsemen Tom Dorrance and Ray Hunt not Monty Roberts.

Monty and PP both use flooding which is kill or cure approach (for the horse)
but are good at self promotion.


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## KS1 (13 July 2010)

Bramley said:



			I was at the demo and witnessed the abuse first hand. I confronted both Pat Parelli and Robert Whittaker and saw the cut caused by the gum line first hand. I would be more than happy to give evidence if a prossecution was taken up by any welfare body. As i am sure the Festival of the Horse vet would be.
		
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That alone is enough for me, even without seeing it offically stated I do believe you...  and now even more appalled that PP would use such a gadget to such extremes.


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## TopTotty (13 July 2010)

Well not that it'll make any difference but I have emailed them the following.

Hi,

I am not a general fan of Parelli and have today found myself watching a video of the 9th...I am sure you know which one.
I believe in Karma and what goes around comes around....I sleep easy in my bed at night.....can Pat and Lynda say the same?  I hope they are truly ashamed of theirselves.
They have really ruined their reputation this time and I hope for the sake of horses that they will give it all up....or is the bank balance not big enough yet?

Jeni Ball 
BHSAI Int SM, EBW, Cert Ed
www.livetoevent.blogspot.com - Please log on and become a follower!


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## KS1 (13 July 2010)

teddyt said:




Folks were upset at what they think they saw! Patronising or what???
.... will help those that dont understand! More patronsing drivel
		
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I agree, that statement is very patronising, if what Isee with my own eyes is only what I THINK I see then my whole entire life is a lie.  Crickey and I am in the mid 40's .. that's a lot of lies..


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## Dirtymare (13 July 2010)

I have lurked on this thread for a couple of days now, but I have a question.
Before I ask it, I dont subscribe to the PP theories, but to the "whatever works for your horse" theory. I also am not able to view the links for the video as work block the YouTube site.
My question is - why would, someone who aspires to all things natural and doing everything that is kind to the horse etc, why would he use such force and brutality in front of a huge crowd?? Surely PP would have realised that this would cause outrage to the veiwing public? And why would Robert Whittaker think about allowing PP to use his stallion for another show??
I find it very odd indeed.


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## brighteyes (13 July 2010)

SophieRIDSH said:



			On RARE occasions, yes, and it's unmistakable.  See it once and you will have nightmares.

Catwalk (at least not in the videos I saw) was no where near that place.  At first he was saying "I don't want my face and ears messed with"  And it looked like PP actually got him to accept that.

IMHO he should have quit there.  

An experienced horseperson would have realized that significant progress had been made and could be built upon in the future.

But no, ego prevailed and that bridle was going on that horse no matter what and events spun out of control.

At that point the demo became dangerous because Catwalk wanted OUT of the situation.  I at least never saw him act with intent to harm but a handler or spectator certainly could have been hurt had they gotten in the horse's way.

In addition to the unnecessary distress caused to the horse my main objection to a demo like this the fact that some of the hero worshipers don't understand (Oh, that's what they say about us) that what they saw was DANGEROUS and try this out at home.
		
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Yes, if he had had the ability to see that the horse had not actually said OK, I get this, I'll be OK.  Apparently PP would also have quit there had he known what would have happened.  He wasn't the only one to have been lulled into thinking the job was nearly done either.

To have let the stallion end on the note which followed next, most unpredictably or expectedly, would have meant the stallion would then have said no a whole lot more vociferously. I think, to his own dismay, PP had no option but carry on using every method in his NH book to get the stallion to be prepared to listen.  Which he clearly was refusing to even consider.

Unfortunate, yes, but I think he had to finish what he started.

As for the horse being under the spotlights - er, he showjumps, on his own, in an arena full of bizarre-looking fences?  

I want to see the _whole_ thing, narrated by PP and not on wobbly cameraphones, heavily edited by personal viewpoints.  Please.


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## yaddowshad (13 July 2010)

How long are we going to keep listening to mouthy Americans for advice on horsemanship????


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## Renvers (13 July 2010)

I have read this with interest but not posted until now.

Thanks to those who uploaded videos of the actual event onto YouTube it was amazing to watch - and not in a good way.

I have always been ambivalent about Parelli, a friend I respect very much uses the games with her retired hunter and they seem to enjoy it. I also say Linda Parelli do a good ridden demo once with some good tips on introducing some exercises.

My own view is no one person can be a master of horses and purport to have all the answers - if only because anyone who thinks they know that much about horses is deluded. 

I am astounded that they chose to use those techniques on an expensive competition horse. They are lucky it didn't seriously injure itself and ruin its competition and stud careers. Can you imagine if it had been injured, what Parelli spin would that have gathered?

Apart from the stupidity of not wearing a hard hat and gloves the pair in the video (Pat and Linda I presume) do make themselves look very amatuer with their handling of the horse, my non horsey parents could do better swinging around on the end of a line. 

It doesn't inspire my confidence in their ability to display humane training methods for problem horses. Surely you approach a problem horse with a range of options to try not just use more and extreme force each time you are unsuccessful.

Of course this discussion has had one benefit - all the new HHO members who have joined to add comments. Welcome aboard!!


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## joeanne (13 July 2010)

Dirtymare said:



			My question is - why would, someone who aspires to all things natural and doing everything that is kind to the horse etc, why would he use such force and brutality in front of a huge crowd??
		
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Because the man is deluded enough to believe in his own self importance, and that is a very dangerous thing! 
It means that he honestly does not see the wrong in what he does, but it is still horrific abuse of what is an animal with fears and feelings.


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## martlin (13 July 2010)

brighteyes said:



			Yes, if he had had the ability to see that the horse had not actually said OK, I get this, I'll be OK.  Apparently PP would also have quit there had he known what would have happened.  He wasn't the only one to have been lulled into thinking the job was nearly done either.

To have let the stallion end on the note which followed next, most unpredictably or expectedly, would have meant the stallion would then have said no a whole lot more vociferously. I think, to his own dismay, PP had no option but carry on using every method in his NH book to get the stallion to be prepared to listen.  Which he clearly was refusing to even consider.
whatever the reasoning, I think it's extremely brave and/or stupid to wrap (yes, wrap) a rope around an expensive horse's cannon and yank it, frankly, I think you need to be deranged to do so. The possible injuries are unthinkable and quite possible career and life threatening. And that is quite apart from what I think of this in the realms of acceptable treatment, causing distress and ignoring welfare. 

Unfortunate, yes, but I think he had to finish what he started.
Ever heard of not entering a battle you can't win?

As for the horse being under the spotlights - er, he showjumps, on his own, in an arena full of bizarre-looking fences?  
I don't have a problem with the spotlights, doing things like that in PUBLIC though is a professional suicide.

I want to see the _whole_ thing, narrated by PP and not on wobbly cameraphones, heavily edited by personal viewpoints.  Please.
Somehow, I don't think it will ever happen.

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and some extra words


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## Binkybex (13 July 2010)

I wonder if the HH mag is going to be able to ignore this thread or do you think we will be seeing some sort of investigation in to this "Demo" in the next issue?


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## Renvers (13 July 2010)

Binkybex said:



			I wonder if the HH mag is going to be able to ignore this thread or do you think we will be seeing some sort of investigation in to this "Demo" in the next issue?
		
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Will be interesting to see wont it...?

Is this one of the longest threads ever now?


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## rhino (13 July 2010)

suze369 said:



			Will be interesting to see wont it...?

Is this one of the longest threads ever now? 

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There is one in Soapbox at nearly 11,000 posts


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## martlin (13 July 2010)

roo2012 said:



			There is one in Soapbox at nearly 11,000 posts 

Click to expand...

Yeah, but that's just a game of The Last Word


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## Bramley (13 July 2010)

I tried to stop the demo as the abuse made me so mad i couldn't stop shaking. The worse thing is that Parelli keeps going the next day in a private arena when the vet said the horse was unfit. He has a 45ft line round it's neck , which is like razor wire and a rope in Catwalks already damaged mouth. All against vet advice. That must be prosecutable. That horse showed no aggression at any point. Look at the bit where ( Pat shares lunch with the horse) The rope is still attached and lying on the ground, having been used to exert yet more force.


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## KS1 (13 July 2010)

Oh gosh now that the video has been mentioned once again all I can picture is Pat and Linda fumbling around around like amatuers both pulling on the horse and I understand more now why he reared. 

He reared not through abuse, not through being scared, not because he was aggressive but simply because he thought "Get me out of here" when he reared and came back down he was so calm, jeez what a good horse to forgive so quickly and easily. Both my lads tied with rope or not would have been out of there.

I notice at one point Pat drops his hold, bends over with his back to Catwalk, Linda is hanging onto the 22ft line and looks unsure what to do. Then Pat goes over to Catwalk and start fumbling with something, was it the gum line again? 

I hate having these thoughts but its there on video and there is no "THINK" I saw, I know what I am seeing and it's not pretty.

I feel so sad that this has come about, I was at the Conference in 2009 and loved every part of it and this has just tore up what I believed in into a million pieces pieces that is gonna be very difficult to put back together.

I'll still do Parelli with my horses as there is a lot of good in it but I'll also mix it with other horsemanship idea's from the likes of Mark Rashid, Ken Faulkener, Shane Borland and of course traditional riding, in other words I will take what I need that benefits my horse at the time.


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## Miss.Geek (13 July 2010)

martlin said:



			Yeah, but that's just a game of The Last Word

Click to expand...

I'm surprised this one hasn't gone the same way tbf.


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## Tannis (13 July 2010)

I'm sorry but the horse's value doesn't have any bearing on its treatment.  Quite frankly I'm shocked.

Following on from another discussion, someone has posted this link to further examples of highly questionable treatment of horses at the hands of these people.  This time a half blind horse and for the life of me, I cannot see any reason that warrants the treatment it receives.

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/80925308

If any one of us saw this type of behaviour in the street, we would report it.  

I think it's so, so sad that people are making money out from this.


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## DragonSlayer (13 July 2010)

yaddowshad said:



			How long are we going to keep listening to mouthy Americans for advice on horsemanship????
		
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One of my best friends is an American trainer here, and she DOESN'T endorse Parelli, she had her husband work with babies and have GREAT success.....patience and kindness are their tools in breaking youngters...

Please don't make sweeping statements.


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## martlin (13 July 2010)

Tannis said:



			I'm sorry but the horse's value doesn't have any bearing on its treatment.  Quite frankly I'm shocked.
		
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Well, I brought up the value of the horse for certain reasons.
For me, and from what you are saying, for you as well, the treatment of said horse was cruel - therefore the value is irrelevant, it is a living being and we don't want to cause suffering. However, PP obviously doesn't consider the treatment cruel. So, if you think of risking injury that would end a horse's career, surely it is much more stupid (from financial/compensation point of view) to threaten a career of Catwalk than to threaten a career of a riding school pony! The owner will sue you for damages - you could probably stand £2k for a RS pony, but a six figure (or even 7) sum for Catwalk might cripple your finances and put YOUR career in jeopardy.

See my point here?


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## Renvers (13 July 2010)

A horse's value has no bearing on this level of treatment - however it does have a bearing on the high profile nature of any injuries and the owners ability and motivation to sue and the amount they will be suing for.


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## martlin (13 July 2010)

suze369 said:



			A horse's value has no bearing on this level of treatment - however it does have a bearing on the high profile nature of any injuries and the owners ability and motivation to sue and the amount they will be suing for.
		
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Exactly, that's what I meant, but you put it much better


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## fburton (13 July 2010)

Bramley said:



			I confronted both Pat Parelli and Robert Whittaker and saw the cut caused by the gum line first hand. I would be more than happy to give evidence if a prossecution was taken up by any welfare body. As i am sure the Festival of the Horse vet would be.
		
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Bramley, may I ask exactly where the cut you saw was - in the corner(s) of the mouth, ie. next the horse's lip, or inside the mouth? It's not that I don't believe you - I'm just trying to get a clear picture in my mind.


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## lexiedhb (13 July 2010)

Ok so havent read ALL of these posts but having now seen the vid.... a few things strike me
1) why did the whittakers buy a horse that was so difficult to bridle? knock down price perhaps
2) where were they when this eejit of a man was trying to haul their "killer" (OMG that is the funniest thing I have read on this) horse to the ground?
3) with all their obvious years of horsemanship why didnt they jump in and stop it......

If Im going over old ground do apolagise- difficult to find  in 74 pages!!


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## Cinnamontoast (13 July 2010)

PMSL at this parody-get the moustache! Check out the amazing APPLE stick-I NEED one!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRmxcASjR5s&feature=related


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## fburton (13 July 2010)

brighteyes said:



			I want to see the _whole_ thing, narrated by PP and not on wobbly cameraphones, heavily edited by personal viewpoints.  Please.
		
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Me too - and please could a technical whiz find a way of filtering out the obligatory (and ghastly) background music?


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## Cinnamontoast (13 July 2010)

alliersv1 said:



			Hello!
Sorry, I had to mince over from the fluffy side for this one!
I cannot believe the level of brainwashing and blind acceptance going on with these people!
		
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Know what you mean, love the place as I do! They're getting heated there, too, tho! Love the video link!


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## Graureiter (13 July 2010)

My impression of LP and PP is that as far as they are concerned Showmanship, Salesmanship and OneUpmanship trumps Horsemanship.


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## Ignition (13 July 2010)

deleted


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## JanetGeorge (13 July 2010)

LucyPriory said:



			But it has just occurred to me - if Catwalk is in the top 3 difficult for the great Mr P then perhaps he just ain't all that experienced after all.....
		
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Or no-one with a TRULY difficult (or savage) horse sends it to him! 

I'm limited to judging the horse on the video I've seen - but on that basis Catwalk MIGHT have just made it into my top10!  And let's face it, surely he can't have been THAT bad if sold a matter of a couple of months ago for £200,000!!  OR does RW buy £200,000 horse by mail order?


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## Tannis (13 July 2010)

Martlin and Suze369

Agree with you both.  I am quite frankly sickened by what I've seen and it shouldn't be allowed to happen to any horse whatever the value but take your point that to do it to such a high value horse just epitomises this man's extreme arrogance and stupidity.

I've never really had much of an opinion on Parelli, I dismissed it as circus tricks but harmless.  But my opinion has completely changed since seeing this and watching all the videos that have been posted on here (many thanks to the people who have posted).

We have stallions, mares, geldings, veterans, foals, youngstock, performance horses, plods and pets. I also have a young homebred stallion who was badly abused by a producer.  I knew there was no quick fix and it's taken me nearly 4 years of painstaking effort to rebuild the trust and confidence we used to have.  And yes, my stallion really did try to kill me and I carry the scars and crushed bones from it.  There is no quick fix.  It's not something that can be miraculously "mended" in a show ring.  And that's what I have come to hate about this.  People are making money out of setting false expectations and a lot of horses are going to be irreparably damaged (physically and emotionally) because inexperienced people will watch and think they can make miracles happen in a matter of hours.

My stallion and I now have back the bond and love that we used to have and each of us respects the other and it makes me cry nearly every day because it's so rewarding.  But it wasn't achieved overnight.  At one point I actually had to consider having him destroyed because he became a danger to himself and others.  But I believed in him and I believed in time and patience.  And if anyone came near my boy with a gum twitch and a length of rope, I'd use the twitch on their gonads and use the rope to string them from the nearest tree!

I am truly, truly sickened by this.  The abuse to my boy happened in private but for goodness sake these people are charging trusting people so they can watch horses being abused.  And it IS abuse.


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## Sparkles (13 July 2010)

lexiedhb said:



			1) why did the whittakers buy a horse that was so difficult to bridle? knock down price perhaps
		
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TBF, there are a hell of a lot of 'quirky' or temperamental horses out there at top level that you can 'put up with' solely for the fact of knowing you can go round and have a good shot at whatever class you do. for a multi£ price tag horse which training or potential for such high level, one quirk or 'bad point' about it won't be enough for it to be automatically dismissed from being bought or produced for that level if it can still get round the course/etc and earn money...so for all those comments on the FB page saying that it's 'another 200k horse saved from the knackers' are completely diluded statements to make if they think just because it has one major issue like that, that it would be automatically useless for it's purpose!


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## JanetGeorge (13 July 2010)

skint1 said:



			Do horses purposely set out to kill people, as in, was Catwalk thinking "I'm gonna choke that fella on his own mustache if he comes near me again!" or is it a case of the horse acting out of fear or under the influence of hormones and a person being in the wrong place/wrong time?
		
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The VERY odd stallion DOES set out to kill people (usually because he's learned through bitter experience than people are nasty ba*tards who will abuse him!

But to my mind, Catwalk was terribly confused.  Stallions KNOW their routine - there is a time and a place for everything.  His bridle is put on inthe stable; in a floodlit arena he showjumps!  They also NEED to build up a relationship with the person who handles/trains them - a relationship built on trust!

So this demo failed on two counts:  strange behaviour from a strange man!  Stallion is naturally suspicious and hasn't a CLUE what strange man wants.  For all Catwalk knows, the strange man is pickinga fight and wants to kill him.  Under the circumstances, his behaviour was quite restrained!


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## lexiedhb (13 July 2010)

Binky01 said:



			TBF, there are a hell of a lot of 'quirky' or temperamental horses out there at top level that you can 'put up with' solely for the fact of knowing you can go round and have a good shot at whatever class you do. for a multi£ price tag horse which training or potential for such high level, one quirk or 'bad point' about it won't be enough for it to be automatically dismissed from being bought or produced for that level if it can still get round the course/etc and earn money...so for all those comments on the FB page saying that it's 'another 200k horse saved from the knackers' are completely diluded statements to make if they think just because it has one major issue like that, that it would be automatically useless for it's purpose!
		
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Now this I know- I dodnt think for one minute that this issue would stop this horse competing at top level---- was just wondering if they felt that getting the horse for the right price, they could using this nonsense "cure" the horse of this...... was just surprised at horsemen at the top of their game would even consider it-- (not the purchase, the "method" of curing)

and to be fair the horse cant be completely unable to be bridled, I mean Im sure hes ridden, in a bridle LOL

hatever happened to taking the bridle apart and putting it back together on the horse for nags with "head touching" issues?


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## Onyxia (13 July 2010)

angelish said:



			i have just had a look at the link to parelli facebook page 

i don't wish to upset any followers as im sure there are some normal sensible people some were among you all.
iv'e never had a great interest in parelli ,negatively or other wise but i have to say this post as well as the facebook page has changed my mind.

i now think they are all completely barking mad !!!
weather it is good for the horse or not the people on there are behaving like they belong to some sort of cult 
are they all brainwashed or something ,if i am unlucky enough to bump into a parelli follower in future outings i shall be running for the hills
		
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Not a PP person at all,but please don't!
Their are some nice normal ones out there who choose Parelli to work through a certain problem/give them something constructive to do while off riding for one reason or another.

I once had the pleasure of a wonderfull YO who was highly qualified with the BHS and used that as default,but also dabbled and read everything they could from other methods-the best of both worlds was found when a large dolop of logic was aplied


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## I_am_a_cucumber (13 July 2010)

I am confused.  I had assumed this is the horse owned previously by Christian Ahlmann (German showjumper).  But comparing the pictures from the Parelli youtube video with ones of Ahlmann and Catwalk, it's a different horse.


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## brighteyes (13 July 2010)

Just out of interest - how is Catwalk going on?  Can he be bridled now without undue anxiety?


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## DragonSlayer (13 July 2010)

cinammontoast said:



			PMSL at this parody-get the moustache! Check out the amazing APPLE stick-I NEED one!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRmxcASjR5s&feature=related

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Brilliant!


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## Sparkles (13 July 2010)

Not Ahlmann's Catwalk, too old as it would make the stallion 13.


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## martlin (13 July 2010)

Binky01 said:



			Not Ahlmann's Catwalk, too old as it would make the stallion 13.
		
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And as far as I know, Ahlmann's Catwalk is a gelding anyway


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## Sparkles (13 July 2010)

No idea tbh! Not a follower of him, I was just on the HO stud website having a browse and it has his sire there on a page followed by the offspring and foaling dates


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## I_am_a_cucumber (13 July 2010)

martlin said:



			And as far as I know, Ahlmann's Catwalk is a gelding anyway

Click to expand...


 Ah, my mistake.   Unless, of course, Parelli's magic extends to making horses younger and turning geldings back into stallions?   (I know, I know - you can't see how that would work, but you just don't understand.)


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## martlin (13 July 2010)

http://www.christian-ahlmann.de/seiten/turnier/catwalk.html

now, my German is rather rubbish, but Wallach means gelding as far as I know


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## Hedgewitch13 (13 July 2010)

Well the video has made Fugly horse of the day... the comments will make interesting reading when they pour in.


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## I_am_a_cucumber (13 July 2010)

martlin said:



http://www.christian-ahlmann.de/seiten/turnier/catwalk.html

now, my German is rather rubbish, but Wallach means gelding as far as I know

Click to expand...


  Ah, my German is rather better than my knowledge of showjumpers - yes, Wallach is gelding.  Hengst is stallion. 

Oh well, I still think Parelli has de-gelded the horse and made him a few years younger.  Anything is possible for Him.


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## martlin (13 July 2010)

I_am_a_cucumber said:



 
Oh well, I still think Parelli has de-gelded the horse and made him a few years younger.  Anything is possible for Him.  

Click to expand...

Anything is possible, Parelli moves in mysterious ways


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## eahotson (13 July 2010)

It is brilliant this.


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## jhoward (13 July 2010)

brighteyes said:



			Just out of interest - how is Catwalk going on?  Can he be bridled now without undue anxiety?
		
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yep the parellis ahve posted a video.. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8j25pS6ixWk

im wondering why the rather loog rope around the horses neck!


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## lannerch (13 July 2010)

I love the way its closing comment is 'keep it natural'

By all accounts there was nothing natural certainly in that first demo!


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## eventer123 (13 July 2010)

Exactly, the 'keep it natural' drives me crazy.  There's nothing natural about what he does in the real video clips of what happened -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gf7w_1ifus --  not the bs PP media machine video.


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## TinselRider (13 July 2010)




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## SusannaF (13 July 2010)

boogles said:





Click to expand...

Good summary.


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## MrsElle (13 July 2010)

I worry about Catwalk.  Either the treatment of him has 'deadened' him (like many riding school ponies I knew as a child), the problem will once again become an issue or the treatment of Catwalk with result in further issues.

I am in no way an expert horsewoman.  I am a **** rider, a happy hacker, who has only had a horse for less than two years and you can write what I know about horses on the back of a postage stamp!

However, my current two horses, maybe by default, have come on so much and many of their quirks and problems have been 'cured'.  My cob was headshy and was a b*gger to catch.  Did I resort to PP's methods to bridle him?  No, I took things one step at a time. Yes I was sometimes frustrated but didn't let it show and now he can be bridled and stroked on his ears and head with no problems, even by strangers.  Catching him involved me spending lots of time sitting in the field on a garden chair reading a book, but it worked!  My youngster was no respecter of personal space but he is much much better now, a friendly but repectful lad and not a twitch, hobble or any aggression involved at all.

If I can do it without resorting to un-necessary techniques, I'm sure PP can.  The arrogance of the man is astounding!


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## fburton (13 July 2010)

JanetGeorge said:



			Under the circumstances, his behaviour was quite restrained!
		
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Not dominant??


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## SusannaF (13 July 2010)

Bramley said:



			I was at the demo and witnessed the abuse first hand. I confronted both Pat Parelli and Robert Whittaker and saw the cut caused by the gum line first hand. I would be more than happy to give evidence if a prossecution was taken up by any welfare body. As i am sure the Festival of the Horse vet would be.
		
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What did they and the vet say?


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## martlin (13 July 2010)

SusannaF said:



			What did they and the vet say?
		
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It's somewhere amongst the 700 odd replies, if I remember correctly, the vet excluded Catwalk from further demos, PP said he was doing it for the good of the horse and RW said it was OK by him


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## nativetyponies (13 July 2010)

eventer123 said:



			Exactly, the 'keep it natural' drives me crazy.  There's nothing natural about what he does in the real video clips of what happened -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gf7w_1ifus --  not the bs PP media machine video.
		
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This has been extremely tedious to read.
Several good points/replies here.
This video says volumes for myself.
Stallions don't normally offer up their penises unless under sedation.
It seems all very murky to myself.

I must post a link to this thread to the Native Pony forum I am a member of.


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## Ignition (13 July 2010)

You don't actually see the bridle be put on though in that video - it's already miraculously in place..


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## BrynThePony (13 July 2010)

Have sort of skipped through the posts - there's just too many of them !!!
I've seen a couple of NH demonstrations and also had the chap to help me load Mr W - his name is Mike Barker and he's just the best horseman I've ever seen. 
I'm not soft with my boys, I just expect them to do what I ask cos I wouldn't ask them to do anything horrible
Mike is just the most natural horseman you could ever meet, working on a partnership between you and your horse but he wouldn't make out it was rocket science; time and patience do seem to work wonders.............

With regards to PP and LP:
Have just watched the Linda P video and it's really quite nasty
Have also watched the loading video and, to be honest, PP looks pretty ****.........my 9 yr old nephew could do better than that !


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## jahseh (13 July 2010)

well what a lot of hysteria. No I agree that no one has all the answers and some of what people saw they didn't like but over the top rubbish is being spouted left right and centre. I am sure that the parelli people would not recommend you went home and tried this with a horse, but as for saying they shouldn't have done it because someone might go home and copy them, well then maybe you shouldn't jump cross country at any other level than a twig because a novice might copy you etc. etc. As for injuries caused to the horse any injury is regretable in the extreme and i haven't seen the injury in question so can't comment on its prescence or lack thereof but i have seen plenty of horses with damaged mouths from being ridden and no one goes screaming around demanding the riders are prosecuted. I have also seen plenty of horses with ulcerated and lacerated mouths simply because people have not had their teeth regulaly attended to and these are being constantly reinjured just because the horse chews and they suffer months or years of pain should the owner of every horse the vet or edt finds in that state be prosecuted and at what level should that begin a 1" laceration 2 ulcers? when did you last inspect your own horses mouth? I personally find the cult of personality very unattractive and really don't understand it but it is one that is rampant in todays society and particularly so in America and one that lots of people buy into so not that unusual. Parelli has lots of good points as well as some that are less attractive like the commercialism and the unhealthy cult of personality. However at its core it does promote greater understanding of the horse it recommends lots of things like undemanding time with your horse such as just hanging out with your horse in the pasture or stable to build your relationship, it also undeniably produces great results and people and horse partnerships that are a pleasure to see without any cruelty. The reverse side where people rant and rave against people with long ropes and carrot sticks is just the reverse of the obssesive parelli fanatics. Come on people just be more tolerant don't jump on band waggons and only beleive things you have seen in there entirety with your own eyes and withold judgement till you do. As for unedited verses edited footage all the footage I have seen is edited, clips by there very nature are edited as they are only snippets so without the whole footage or unless you were there we are really unable to comment with authority. I have to admit to scepticism about some comments from people who were there and some from people who claim to have been there as there seems to be quite a lot of inconsistencies in the accounts such as time length etc. they can't all have been at the same event.


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## Shysmum (13 July 2010)

^^^^ sorry, can't even start to read this - way too many words and no paragraphs. Hurts the eyes.


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## SirenaXVI (13 July 2010)

shutterfoto said:



			Hi everyone, I especially registered to this forum so that I could answer to this thread.
I understand that some people are appaled or disgusted by what they saw and do not believe that Pat and Linda are true horsemen. I however have a completely different opinion and would at least like to share it with you. I don't really care if this changes your mind or not, you are free to believe whatever you want, but I believe in them, all the way!
Here is what I experienced:
Pat usually always comments while he is playing with or teaching horses so it helps the spectator to make sense of what it is he is doing.
This time was very very different. I don't know how many of you actually have experience with Stallions to start with (like some stallions actually kill sick foals by biting their necks, it's hard but it's nature in it's simplest form, survival of the fittest), but this particular stallion was in the top 3 of Pat's most difficult horses he has ever met in his lifelong carreer. This lead to him  to put music on so he could concentrate on the horse rather than on the public. Of course this gave a gap for the spectators and created room for misinterpretation.
It's very simple though, this horse was trying to kill him and if he wouldn't have done what he has done with the horse (and risk his life), this horse might have put quite a number of people in the hospital and even worse, he might have killed some too. 
People tend to forget that horses can be extremely dangerous when overconfident or when scared, young kids get killed every year by horses, same with adults.
At a certain stage, horses can become so sick of a certain treatement and they simply go on strike, that's what this horse did. I read that a lot of you were saying he was scared, but if you read the signs, the body language of the horse, you will see that he was not scared (though difficult to see as the video has a very bad quality), he was an over condifent horse on adrenaline, he hardly moved during the whole thing and when he did it was with precision and premeditation, that is a very clear sign of domination, a bit like a kungfu master in action, and the only thing that was of interest to him was getting rid of Pat, either alive or not alive. 
What Pat was doing, was not scaring the horse, but convincing him that he would persist and not give up like many other people would have. He tried different techniques to get into the mind of the horse rather than to his body. Some of the techniques did not work, but in the end he managed to get into the horses mind and was able to convince him.
If you look at the very short video of the work that was done after friday you'll see that this horse is nowhere near scared of Pat, on the contrary, this horse is very relaxed and loves being with him. And not to mention, they are able to bridle him now easily and he even won a competition this weekend!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8j25pS6ixWk&feature=related

If I would have scared the **** out of you like you claim he did with this horse, would you be willing to stand with me in a relaxed way and even enjoy being with me? I don't think so.

Kind Regards all
		
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What a load of *******s!  Yet another Parelli afficionado surmising that we are all ***** who cannot read a horse's body language.


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## SO1 (13 July 2010)

i don't do parelli myself but i have quite a few friends who do parelli and what they do sounds nothing like the demonstration at all. 

my understanding of parelli is that it is slow process starting at level one and you don't move up to the next level until the horse is happy at the first level of games or whatever. i am presuming that rw was not doing any of the other levels or ground work with catwalk first that seems to be core of parelli and takes ages.

it seems from the demonstration the PP has missed out all the games and other levels that is advocated to get the horse comfortable on the ground and used to trusting the handler and attempted a quick fix which from my understanding from my friends is not what parelli is marked as - it seems to have lots of levels which you move up rather than one quick fix. 

it sound like the parellis don't practice what they preach or they are trying to sell quick fixes to complex problems that would normally takes ages to sort out as that is more dramatic for an audience.


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## jahseh (13 July 2010)

sorry shysmum, its just all the rubbish got to me lol


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## Shysmum (13 July 2010)

No probs !!  I have to wear reading specs to read this forum anyway   sm x


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## paisley (13 July 2010)

Saw this on Youtube after watching the hilarious Parelli p**s take. I don't know the details and how they treat the horse is utterly horrible and quite upsetting. But to me it shows genuine aggression in an animal and a desire to seriously hurt someone- none of which is remotely evident in the clips of Catwalk. So I think the 'trying to kill Pat' line is utter bobbins- but all the sensible people knew that already eh?!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J95LsygVMaQ&feature=related


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## SophieRIDSH (13 July 2010)

jahseh said:



			I am sure that the parelli people would not recommend you went home and tried this with a horse, but as for saying they shouldn't have done it because someone might go home and copy them, well then maybe you shouldn't jump cross country at any other level than a twig because a novice might copy you etc. etc..
		
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There is a HUGE difference between a competition and a DEMONSTRATION.  People go to a demonstration to LEARN or to get information.  

So, what did people learn from this event?  It would be nice to think that they learned what NOT to do but judging from the drivel on the Parelli site most of his followers think that what went on was just fine and dandy


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## drover (13 July 2010)

Was any body at the parelli sunday demo?

A friend told me that LP announced Parelli had been invited to present at some official FEI dressage meeting/talks, could this be true???

Apparently after LP announced this PP started chanting 'we're gonna change the world, we're gonna change the world'

Well I hope I does change the world of mr P after that terrible example of 'natural horsemanship'

It would be nice to hear a viewpoint of one of a parelli official or instructor on here.....


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## Hollyberry (13 July 2010)

I have attended a Parelli demo, many years ago now, and I must admit under duress.  I was bored rigid by the constant marketing and hard sell of all the products associated with the whole shabang.  I thought at the time that PP was just a bit of a prat with a lot of business savvy but nothing else and I have to say looking at this video, is it just me, or does he look totally ill at ease with the horse.  I can't understand the hero worship of this guy, for goodness sake  it is just a business.  I have followed the very nasty videos and cannot for the life of me understand why anybody would give these people their money.  There are enough real horsemen and women in this country who actually care and know what they are doing.  It is all just cynical marketing and I am afraid people are so gullible thesedays they just accept the **** that is dished out to them and will pay a fortune for it.  My main concern is how many horses are scarred by this trash.  Why 
on earth is he allowed to peddle this rubbish and nastiness is beyond me, someone should have prosecuted him for cruelty a long time ago.  Nasty people and nasty business.


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## suzysparkle (13 July 2010)

Having just watched the real footage it makes for horrible viewing and PP is very lucky he wasn't double barrelled (what he deserved). How what he did was meant to help I'll never understand. Any Horse that headshy needs very patient consistent work not a quick fix via a barbaric method. I wonder if the RSPCA are looking into this. They do work closely with the BHS so hopefully they are. Expose them for the abuse and their rip-off cult as well.


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## brighteyes (13 July 2010)

jhoward said:



			yep the parellis ahve posted a video.. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8j25pS6ixWk

im wondering why the rather loog rope around the horses neck!
		
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No, I meant, say, today.


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## Shysmum (13 July 2010)

I hope the RSPCA are - I contacted them about it yesterday, but like I say, it will help if more people do complain to them - 0300 1234 999. If it angers you, please contact them and make a complaint directly. sm x


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## amandap (13 July 2010)

drover said:



			Was any body at the parelli sunday demo?

A friend told me that LP announced Parelli had been invited to present at some official FEI dressage meeting/talks, could this be true???
		
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ROFL!!! Sounds about right. They're probably going to sort the rollkur issue together!


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## Ghazzu (14 July 2010)

shutterfoto said:



			It's very simple though, this horse was trying to kill him and if he wouldn't have done what he has done with the horse (and risk his life), this horse might have put quite a number of people in the hospital and even worse, he might have killed some too.
		
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Baloney.
The horse was not trying to kill  Parelli, more's the pity.

The horse was apparently not provided with a copy of the script for the evening's entertainment.
Parelli let his *enormous* ego get the better of him, and tried to force the issue.

I feel sorry for the horse.


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## chrisnapthineEDT (14 July 2010)

ponydentist said:



			I have information that after working with Catwalk for most of saturday, he will now readily acept a bridle and bit and will let ANYONE put it on and touch his head ears mouth etc.

A talented horse that wont be going to the dogs. 

As I said the key to this is UNDERSTANDING.....there are those who "get it"......and those who "dont get it".

All those who who fasten your dog up to your lorry with a lead to restrain it or prevent it from doing something.....or put a muzzle on it coz it bites........look out .....you may be abusing your animals.
		
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bad info im afraid


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## LucyPriory (14 July 2010)

Chrisnapthane

Let me just check my understanding.

You have personally seen inside Catwalk's mouth and seen the injury? You personally know that Catwalk is still headshy?

I don't doubt  you at all, but I want to make sure I have not misunderstood your post.  It's early and I'm tired.

How is Catwalk otherwise?

And thank you for posting


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## flash1 (14 July 2010)

Thats how I read post and would be interested to know more as I think many people would


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## chrisnapthineEDT (14 July 2010)

well im going to kindly bow out of further comments as im not sure where all this is going to go and a open forum maybe not best place to discuss it all....but one thing i dont tell lies as have no need too..the main point i wanted to put across was that if thats natural horsemanship then for me you can keep it.........but im sure everything will heal be it wounds or egos and feelings,,,,,,,,,there is people out there doing a lot worse and getting away with it too,thats not defending it mindst!


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## Lsrd1 (14 July 2010)

Very interesting ^.  But it really doesn't matter how many non-Parellites post about injury to the horse, poor/abusive handling, the minions will simply retort that there is a lack of understanding.  

I think it was Baymareb that posted something I really agree with:  what a crock to think that the way to work with a horse is to pretend to be another horse.  Seriously, my horses (8 of them) can easily discern the difference between one of their pasture mates, me or one of my dogs.  Whacking a horse under the chin with a metal clip isn't a "horse bite", it's a human whacking the horse under the chin with a metal clip.

If whoever posted THAT load of garbage has a horse that can be convinced it's a horse bite, I'm sorry but that is one seriously ignorant horse.


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## SusannaF (14 July 2010)

Thank you, Martlin.


I wonder if Horse and Hound will do an investigation.


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## eahotson (14 July 2010)

Are the BSJA going to do an investigation? Pat was not on his own up there.Its alright with me Whitaker was with him all the way.NOT an image the BSJA would want I would n't think.


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## eahotson (14 July 2010)

I think that people whose horses have sore mouths/backs etc.Its USUALLY due to ignorance not to them setting themselves up as some sort of expert and giving lecture demos.
In the great scheme of things, of course the Parellis are not the cruellest people.Think of James Grey for one AND they is a great deal of brutality practiced in a lot of top compeition yards actually.
What was wrong though (apart from Catwalks treatment) is that it was a public deomonstration by a so called expert which was also leant credence by having one of our top show jumping families there lending his horse.
If people had seen that domonstrated by say circus people to show how they 'trained horses' or travellers at Appleby there would be a much wider outcry and that would include the Parelli people.


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## Thelwell_Girl (14 July 2010)

QR

Sorry, havent read the other replies, so not sure if this has already been asked.

Why is there so much 'stuff' (sticks, ropes, halters etc) you have to buy in Parelli? I dont know much about NH at all, so would be really interested to hear your response!

T_G


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## Amymay (14 July 2010)

Bramley said:



			I was at the demo and witnessed the abuse first hand. I confronted both Pat Parelli and Robert Whittaker and saw the cut caused by the gum line first hand. I would be more than happy to give evidence if a prossecution was taken up by any welfare body. As i am sure the Festival of the Horse vet would be.
		
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Bramley, please contact Lee Hackett at the WHW they are asking for witnessess to come forward.


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## impromptu (14 July 2010)

Hi everybody, first time poster here. Fugly blog linked to this discussion today and I got to reading. Personally, I lost any faith in Parelli stuff after reading about their response as to why there were no helmets in use (during jumping) in Parelli training videos (some b.s. that Parelli trained horses are so 100% bomb proof that nothing bad could happen). Well, getting back to the point. Reading about this ordeal and the comments on trust reminded me of a podcast by John O'Leary that I watched recently. He has an older segment on dealing with a head-shy horse too, and a really old one on how to give oral wormer to a reluctant horse; but the new one is just so common-sensical, that I wanted to share it. Hope you like it.
http://www.horseproblems.com.au/podcast.html
Olga


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## MurphysMinder (14 July 2010)

Lee Hackett is actually at BHS.  But I agree, the more witnesses who are prepared to stand up and be counted the better.


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## ERB (14 July 2010)

drover said:



			Was any body at the parelli sunday demo?

A friend told me that LP announced Parelli had been invited to present at some official FEI dressage meeting/talks, could this be true???

Apparently after LP announced this PP started chanting 'we're gonna change the world, we're gonna change the world'

Well I hope I does change the world of mr P after that terrible example of 'natural horsemanship'

It would be nice to hear a viewpoint of one of a parelli official or instructor on here.....
		
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Have a look at Tongue'n'cheek's post, way back in this post but interesting perspective as she's Parelli trained. Also has a separate post on the forum re Parelli


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## Amymay (14 July 2010)

MurphysMinder said:



			Lee Hackett is actually at BHS.  But I agree, the more witnesses who are prepared to stand up and be counted the better.
		
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Duh - thanks MM.  Late night and early morning....

But yes, Lee is asking for witnesses to come forwards.


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## Thelwell_Girl (14 July 2010)

thelwell_girl said:



			QR

Sorry, havent read the other replies, so not sure if this has already been asked.

Why is there so much 'stuff' (sticks, ropes, halters etc) you have to buy in Parelli? I dont know much about NH at all, so would be really interested to hear your response!

T_G
		
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Eep, sorry, wrong post!


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## Supertrooper (14 July 2010)

Lsrd1 said:



			Very interesting ^.  But it really doesn't matter how many non-Parellites post about injury to the horse, poor/abusive handling, the minions will simply retort that there is a lack of understanding.  

I think it was Baymareb that posted something I really agree with:  what a crock to think that the way to work with a horse is to pretend to be another horse.  Seriously, my horses (8 of them) can easily discern the difference between one of their pasture mates, me or one of my dogs.  Whacking a horse under the chin with a metal clip isn't a "horse bite", it's a human whacking the horse under the chin with a metal clip.

If whoever posted THAT load of garbage has a horse that can be convinced it's a horse bite, I'm sorry but that is one seriously ignorant horse.
		
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One of the most intelligent replies I've read on this thread and funnily enough I've heard it said about a 'popular' tv dog trainer who likes to use force as a training method saying it's what dogs do to each other. NO it's not, how can we as humans ever be as good at body language and the nuances of reading body signals as dogs/horses or any other species. Like you say, smacking a horse under the chin or anywhere to stimulate a horse bite isn't that it's ABUSE pure and simple!!


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## Natch (14 July 2010)

amymay said:



			Bramley, please contact Lee Hackett at the WHW (edited by naturally, Amymay means the BHS) they are asking for witnessess to come forward.
		
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Just so that it is easy and there is no excuse not to do this as soon as you read my post:

If you witnessed the parelli demonstration involving this horse please contact Lee Hackett in BHS Welfare on 01926 707804 or email l.hackett@bhs.org.uk 

(The phone number and email are freely available on t'internet so hopefully posting them here will be ok)


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## MadasaFerret (14 July 2010)

I have a stallion with bridle isues, to the point of him becoming dangerous if you persisted in try to get  the bridle over his ears.

So I made him a bridle with a split head, took an hour or so in a quiet stable to show him that this bridle was no longer scary. He now has his bridle on as quiet as a lamb. So much can be done with a horse if you approach by the back door and not like a bull at a gate.


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## Oldred (14 July 2010)

I would very much like to see a statement from the Royal Festival of the Horse organisers/Royal Agricultural Society regarding the matter. In particular, a brief report from the vet that examined Catwalk on Saturday a.m. and found a lesion and confirmed that Catwalk would not be used in the demo the next day. I have tried ringing them but no one is answering. Does anyone know if a statement from them is being issued?


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## MadasaFerret (14 July 2010)

eahotson said:



			.
If people had seen that domonstrated by say circus people to show how they 'trained horses' or travellers at Appleby there would be a much wider outcry and that would include the Parelli people.
		
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I watched a TV prog. the other day about Appleby, say what you like about the fair and the way the Gypsies train and drive their horses, PP could learn a lot from the Gypsies at Appleby about basic harness and driving if his PP's Driving DVD is anything to go by. Poor horses in that DVD didn't even had harness that fitted and the right bits to work in. One poor horse in the pair had a swivel cheek Liverpool digging HARD into his muzzle, screaming to be understood, and nobody said a word......poor animal.


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## Amymay (14 July 2010)

Oldred said:



			I would very much like to see a statement from the Royal Festival of the Horse organisers/Royal Agricultural Society regarding the matter. In particular, a brief report from the vet that examined Catwalk on Saturday a.m. and found a lesion and confirmed that Catwalk would not be used in the demo the next day. I have tried ringing them but no one is answering. Does anyone know if a statement from them is being issued?
		
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Good point.  Let's contact them via email to ask them when we can expect a statement.....


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## The_snoopster (14 July 2010)

It has taken me 2 days to read all of this thread, which is usually about the same time a parelli follower takes to catch their horse, by the time they have pulled faces and flapped their arms about pretending to be the lead mare to show the horse who,s boss.
Parelli my ass.


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## NOISYGIRL (14 July 2010)

PolarSkye said:



			See, I just don't understand this . . . 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwYAn4IH918

I really don't see the link between what PP was doing (swinging that rope at the mare's shoulder) and what he was asking from the horse (go into the trailer) . . . I'm no great horsewoman, but I saw a confused horse.  It seemed to me that he kept "asking" the same question over and over again with little or no effect on the what/how the horse behaved (aside from avoidance).  

If I ask Kali a question and it becomes clear that he isn't responding in the way that I want either because he's being stubborn, or scared, or because he's confused (or just plain "stuck"), it's my responsibility to figure out another way to ask the question.  Surely, asking the same question in the same way over and over and always getting avoidance just teaches avoidance?  Or am I being really thick?  And what about rewarding "the try" . . . and giving the horse time to have a think . . . until tomorrow perhaps?  

Really, really confused.

P
		
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Yes I was confused as to what he was trying to do, he could have moved the partition over for a start if he was in fact trying to load the mare.  She looked confused as to what she was being asked to do, ah well another video nail in their coffin, they really don't help themselves


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## Sarah1 (14 July 2010)

alwaysbroke said:



			the only thing I understand is that I would not let that man, or his wife within a mile of our head shy, difficult to bridle ex racer
		
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I wouldn't let them within a mile of my old, raggedy rocking horse!  It would probably try to kill him...!


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## Amymay (14 July 2010)

I think that this post is / has probably run out of steam.

But can I urge those of you who are concerned to contact the BHS to voice those concerns, and also (as prompted by Oldred) to contact the Royal Festival of the Horse organisers.


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## Red30563 (14 July 2010)

Does anyone know if the video of Friday's 'performance' that was on Youtube has been removed? I can't link to it from any of the posts on this thread.


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## Natch (14 July 2010)

I just wanted to pick up on the simulation of horse bite via metal clip thing people are on about. 

I presume whoever originally posted it meant to say it simulated the phases horse A will go to to move horse B. If B doesn't listen to the early stages of asking or telling, horse A will most likely eventually use teeth and brute strength to get horse B to move. I think we all understand this.

What I think has got lost in translation (or just wasn't explained well about parelli methods) is that of course no horse thinks a human is another horse, no matter how much they simulate horse behaviour. However the *whole essence *of NH (which IMHO the parellis have lost) is that we humans can make the training process easier and less stressful to the horse if we mimick their language as much as possible within a sensible training environment. Don't forget, most NH followers aren't claiming to have reinvented the wheel. We're just doing what good horsepeople do, but using slightly different methods with different focus and different equipment.

As I say - I don't use one, it doesn't sit well enough with me. The people who I have seen in person who have gone to hitting their horse with the clip have been working with horses who do understand the instruction, and have been given plenty of opportunity to listen to it but have ignored it, rather than not understood it. 

Going to a strong phase with a horse who doesn't understand, or isn't emotionally fit enough to take it isn't a smart nor compassionate thing to do, whatever discipline you follow.


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## HumBugsey (14 July 2010)

MadasaFerret said:



			I watched a TV prog. the other day about Appleby, say what you like about the fair and the way the Gypsies train and drive their horses, PP could learn a lot from the Gypsies at Appleby about basic harness and driving if his PP's Driving DVD is anything to go by. Poor horses in that DVD didn't even had harness that fitted and the right bits to work in. One poor horse in the pair had a swivel cheek Liverpool digging HARD into his muzzle, screaming to be understood, and nobody said a word......poor animal.
		
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It is a bit scary how many people think a liverpool is an appropriate bit for a multiple.... it's dangerous for people and uncomfortable for horses (making it doubley dangerous for people)


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## drover (14 July 2010)

Many posters have mentioned the vet examination on the horse, who was actually present for this?

A friend tells me that parelli claim there was no injury at all to the horse and the only people present were their own staff, therefore trying to dis-spell the claims of many of the people on this forum.


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## teddyt (14 July 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8j25pS6ixWk

This video is another classic marketing tactic from the parelli people. Pat sharing his lunch with the horse, etc all aiming to paint a lovely rosy picture that the horse is happy and pat is so kind. 'Look everyone, this horse is happy and no harm done'. 

Its doesnt make abuse acceptable just because you give the horse a hug afterwards and give it a crust of bread. Its a pathetic attempt to try and right a wrong and whitewash over the incident. Again- totally patronising. We dont understand the training process apparently but if it means the horse is happy to have lunch with Pat afterwards then thats ok.

Anthropomorphic rubbish that is intertwined with 'its all about horse behaviour' spewed out by PP that people fall for.


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## Pat10 (14 July 2010)

I sent links to Fugly Horse of the Day. You ought to see the blog and comments!


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## Shysmum (14 July 2010)

I can confirm that I have been contacted by WHW, who are looking into this as I write. 

Please keep the complaints coming !  sm x

RSPCA - 0300 1234 999

WHW -  01953 498682

Royal Festival of the Horse   01243 532516 / 07710 348554

Email: bppr@pilchers.net 

Thankyou guys, action speaks louder than words ! sm x


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## suejs001 (14 July 2010)

I am so upset reading this, I have been following PNH for about 1 year and I have never seen or heard anything like this.  

I was not at FOTH on Friday I didn't see the demo so I cannot condone what Pat did, all I can say to the other folk who are just slagging off people who practice parelli.... in not all instances do conventional methods work for all horses - do not be so quick to critisize those who who have found a different way.  Snoopy who ever you are, it takes me 2 seconds to catch my horse as he runs to great me!!! 

I am not for or against what Pat did until I see it for myself, it does sound horrific in reading about it and I cannot believe PP would treat a horse this way.  I only ask that you do not condem all people who choose a different method to work with their horse because a conventional method of training has not worked... when most people would have sold their horse on because they didn't get on or forced it down with more and more equipment, I have chosen a different road to follow.  That does not make me someone for you to make fun of or to ridicule me.  

SO DON'T BULLY people who work with a different method of training and try and exclude us from your clique.  You are not better than someone who bullies your horse.


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## nativetyponies (14 July 2010)

I've got behind the "Complain Campaign" and emailed the Daily Mail the link to the video.
I know they really like to pick up on "Animal Abuse"


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## Munchkin (14 July 2010)

nativeponies said:



			I've got behind the "Complain Campaign" and emailed the Daily Mail the link to the video.
I know they really like to pick up on "Animal Abuse"
		
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I'm not sure getting the Daily Fail involved is a positive step...


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## Shysmum (14 July 2010)

I think the more people we complain to the better, tbh. The Daily Mail do like animal abuse stories....but then again so does The Sun .


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## teddyt (14 July 2010)

http://linda.parellinaturalhorsetra...elli-update-from-the-past-few-weeks/#comments


Link to a comment by Helen McCloud Cuckoo Land. I particularly liked this bit-




			Bravo on being brave enough to show the advanced techniques used with Robert Whitakers beautiful stallion. I know some of the audience were a little shocked and emotional  they need a bit more savvy I think to understand the assertive without emotion principle
		
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Savvy means intelligence/common sense. So apparently im too stupid to realise that tying a horses legs up and using a gum line is good horsemanship?
 What planet are these people on????


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## Orangehorse (14 July 2010)

Totally agree with Sue.  I have known people to have great success with Parelli with previously difficult horses, and build great relationships and often succeed with animals that previous owners had failed with.

I think in this case it was a demonstration using the wrong horse at the wrong place and it went completely wrong - maybe there was an ego involved to try and get a "result" and the horse hadn't read the script and wasn't about to comply.


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## jodie :) (14 July 2010)

Parelli = waste of time in my opinion. use your common sense when around horses not airy fairy 'natural horsemanship' which as far as i've seen causes the horse distress and confusion. Surely if a man names his technique after himself it shows he's more concerned about his own profile than the horses welfare IN MY OPINION. yes contraversial i know, but if it works for you fair enough. I can't stand it personally.


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## Amymay (14 July 2010)

drover said:



			Many posters have mentioned the vet examination on the horse, who was actually present for this?

A friend tells me that parelli claim there was no injury at all to the horse and the only people present were their own staff, therefore trying to dis-spell the claims of many of the people on this forum.
		
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The BHS organised for a vet to examine the horse, which was subsequently done.  This has been confirmed to me in writing by the BHS.


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## better half (14 July 2010)

###Talking horse quote  'All I have seen indicates that if the horse exhibits an unacceptable behaviour Monty's methods would permit punishment (tugging the rope, for example) but do not permit any form of violent assault on the horse in order to get him to achieve a behaviour. I have seen both Pat and Linda Parelli hit horses to get the behaviour they want. That to me, as a Monty Roberts student and observer of Parelli, is the difference that makes me reject Parelli and be the proud holder of the Monty Roberts Preliminary Certificate of Horsemanship.'
###
Monty injured a horse in a demo using rope gadgets like this and the 'Daily Mirror' covered the story but Monty just said it was the worst horse he had met (also wb) is it just to easy to blame the horses.


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## Puppy (14 July 2010)

Munchkin said:



			I'm not sure getting the Daily Fail involved is a positive step...
		
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Sounds like a terrible idea to me...


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## snowmanbaby (14 July 2010)

DON'T BE FOOLED BY ANY PARELLI PRACTICIONER

"Some"  choose to work only on horses which will give a good audience, which they have already practiced on... it is all about money spinning and little else...  and when faced with a very, very difficult problem suggest euthanasia... and we have personal experience of this... a young horse beaten and whipped around a stable into utter submission... a bill for over £800 and the advice to have him euthanised...  (obviously, - because he would not attract large audiences, nor play the game of showing how "magical"  these half-wit cowboys are....



Any moron   with half an idea about horses, can "move" a horse around an arena, - it is no great secret, - you don't have to wear levi's, a stetson, and huge spurs, and "affect"  a John Way walk...  and flirt with the dim-wit girls and women who think there is something "magic" ... there is not...  the "magic"  is in the cheque book!

It is all about showmanship and money spinning.

I have watched a so-called Parelli  "expert"  "work his influence"  on a very nervous horse...  the horse was given the choice  (with the carrot stick and lots of untoward pressure)  of  frightening, or VERY frightening....   

What does the poor horse do?  Choose  "frightening"  over "very frightening".

How clever!  Natural horsemanship my rear end!

The bill for the above _"frightening, or very frightening"_   exceeded £600 and the horse was worse than ever...

It is HIGH time this nonsense was exposed properly

AT LAST


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## snowmanbaby (14 July 2010)

eahotson said:



			domane.thats what happened to me.we were suposed to be nh stuff at camp and i have no issue with that, but it was pure parelli and i was standing there swinging this wretched rope when i thought why am i doing this? He is not enjoying it, i am not.he backs up perfectly well when asked in a way he understands.so i stopped.i was suposed to be swinging this wretched heavy clip ever harder.i bought my boy as a confidence restorer and he has been super for me.it seemed a poor way to repay him.my instructor started off by talking herself up, subtext if you don't get anything outof this, the fault is yours.its verging on a cult and there is a lot of brain washing.
		
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did you write a cheque.... Cos that is the only thing all this garbage is about...

It is about fooling people... (predominantly women, who are "taken"  with cowboys in stetsons and levis, with spurs...

The "cheque"  is the be-all-and-end-all... Thank goodness you saw sence... And relied on your own, superior, intuition... Well done.!!!


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## MadasaFerret (14 July 2010)

http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=406092659063&comments

Oh my goodness, the comments here are just gobsmacking!  It's nothing more than a cult, their leader has blinded them to everything.


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## snowmanbaby (14 July 2010)

DragonSlayer said:



			We have a 17.2 Shire X who was EVIL when we got him.

Bridle him? Not a chance...he had been doped....and we found out later the previous owners had to twitch him on his lip AND ears and he was rammed into a corner...

You know what? 9 years later, not a bother to bridle at all, and has been for the last 8 years....it took time, but we got there....

PATIENCE.

He learnt to trust us. This once-was-horrid horse is now the best mannered beastie on our yard....


No fancy tricks, rope-twirling or stick-waving for us.
		
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WELL DONE  a  "natural horseman/woman"  -  but died you wear a stetson, and spurs and levis?  and have a lot of people watching you, who had to write cheques???  I think not...

Well done you, and you have my respect and admiration....

This is the BIG turning point for the Parelli money spinning nonsense...!  It is ALL about circus tricks, and cheque books.....


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## snowmanbaby (14 July 2010)

kirstyl said:



			The rope was certainly under the top lip of the horse in the demo that I saw with Monty Roberts.  The horse belonged to a friend of a friend, he was a violent bucker.  They asked to buy the bucking strap afterwards.  They were sold it at some extortionate price just as a long bit of string as apparently bucking straps that go in the mouth are illegal here.  Probably 10 years ago.
		
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Monty Roberts was on the right track... always...
He started with the belief that  "things could be done differently"  read his biography...

SADLY...  money grabbing morons have followed in his wake, and not only used his knowledge, experience and ideas, but EVEN his name...

James Roberts  ( see  www.jr-foundationstation.com  )  is not, actually James "Roberts"  he is James  "UNHERTS"    not a very glamourous cowboy-like name, I agree...

So he chooses  BUT... he does wear levi's  -  stetsons, and huge spurs... and has affected an amazing John Wayne Walk !!  At what point in the Parelli training, do we get to try out the John Wayne Walk, and get taught how to do it???


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## snowmanbaby (14 July 2010)

ruscara said:



			I don't usually pass comment, because I don't consider myself knowledgeable enough to criticise or otherwise these techniques.
However, I will break my usual reticence to say that in the video provided I thought that Pat Parelli looked like an arrogant arse with little regard for the sensitivities of the horse he was 'working' with.
		
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and dear you, you should not put yourself down... you have just shown, in that one small sentence how SUPERIOR your knowledge is...

It is all about circus tricks and cheque books - and you are so so above it...
Well done you... Respect!


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## snowmanbaby (14 July 2010)

teddyt said:



http://linda.parellinaturalhorsetra...elli-update-from-the-past-few-weeks/#comments


link to a comment by helen mccloud cuckoo land. I particularly liked this bit-



savvy means intelligence/common sense. So apparently im too stupid to realise that tying a horses legs up and using a gum line is good horsemanship?
:d what planet are these people on????
		
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don't you know yet???  Planet cheque book!!!!


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## SophieRIDSH (14 July 2010)

snowmanbaby said:



			don't you know yet???  Planet cheque book!!!!
		
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We have a TV comercial over here for a package shipping company, either UPS or Fed Ex, shows how much I was paying attention.
Anyway there is a CEO with his new advisor, a smart a$$ kid, who has told the CEO about the new names for some countries, primarily the new country of Buttheadistan.  

I do believe that is the home of Pepperoni and his devotees


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## spottybotty (14 July 2010)

SophieRIDSH said:



			We have a TV comercial over here for a package shipping company, either UPS or Fed Ex, shows how much I was paying attention.
Anyway there is a CEO with his new advisor, a smart a$$ kid, who has told the CEO about the new names for some countries, primarily the new country of Buttheadistan.  

I do believe that is the home of Pepperoni and his devotees
		
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PMSL!


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## SophieRIDSH (14 July 2010)

spottybotty said:



			PMSL!
		
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Translation to American English?


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## spottybotty (14 July 2010)

SophieRIDSH said:



			Translation to American English?
		
Click to expand...

Sorry! PISS MY SELF LAUGHING!


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## suejs001 (14 July 2010)

You so called 'kick it on' conventional horse women are making it sound that anyone who has made an informed decision to try something other as bubble heads who don't have a brain cell to rub together with no horse knowledge what so ever.  

I am an intelligent educated horse woman, I take acception to what your comments insinuate about anyone who takes a different approach.  I would never treat my horse in such a way as to rope him and cut him to get him to the ground to bridle him.  If Pat Parelli did this for demo purposes then that is his issue and not the people who follow the programme.  I would suggest you stop being so discriminating against those who choose to work their horse in a different method than that of convention just because you don't believe in it.  I do not birate you for the way you choose to lunge your horse tied down in side reins or ride with your horses mouth tied down, and ... how very patronising of you to suggest the only reason we follow PNH is because of Levis, Stetsons and spurs, I personally can't stand all that nonsense, I choose PNH to help my horse when other methods have made him exceptionally unhappy and we were getting no where, I am the bigger person for taking a less popular route and trying something different for the sake of my horse.  Do not critisize EVERYONE for one persons misjudgement.  I really do wonder about the nastiness of people in the horse world at times.  It is nothing more than bullying.  You should be ashamed of yourselves for using forums such as this to treat other horsey people like they are the lowest of the low because of the methods in horse training that they use.  My horse loves parelli and if he didn't like it I would not do it.  He loves his 7 games and the fun and the challenge of playing with a big ball, tarp cones and working on puzzles.  All of this helps him and if it helps him then it is not a bad thing.  SO PLEASE STOP CRITISIZING THE PEOPLE WHO PRACTICE PARELLI AND TREATING US LIKE WE ARE MORONS.    take up the issues you have with the demo by all means, but do not treat anyone who chooses this training method as if they have some disease.... a great many of us have worked with horses and had horses for a long time, we are not stupid or thick or suffering with a mid life crisis where we are so hormonal that we are fantacising about cowboys!  P L E A S E ...


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## SophieRIDSH (14 July 2010)

spottybotty said:



			Sorry! PISS MY SELF LAUGHING! 

Click to expand...

ROFLPIMP
Rolling on the floor laughing peeing in my pants

PMS is Pre menstrual syndrome


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## Caledonia (14 July 2010)

we are not stupid or thick or suffering with a mid life crisis where we are so hormonal that we are fantacising about cowboys!
		
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Perhaps if you came up with a better argument than not having fantasies about cowboys - which incidentally has not so far been an accusation levelled at PP disciples - we might listen......


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## Crackerz (14 July 2010)

suejs001 said:



			You so called 'kick it on' conventional horse women are making it sound that anyone who has made an informed decision to try something other as bubble heads who don't have a brain cell to rub together with no horse knowledge what so ever.  

I am an intelligent educated horse woman, I take acception to what your comments insinuate about anyone who takes a different approach.  I would never treat my horse in such a way as to rope him and cut him to get him to the ground to bridle him.  If Pat Parelli did this for demo purposes then that is his issue and not the people who follow the programme.  I would suggest you stop being so discriminating against those who choose to work their horse in a different method than that of convention just because you don't believe in it.  I do not birate you for the way you choose to lunge your horse tied down in side reins or ride with your horses mouth tied down, and ... how very patronising of you to suggest the only reason we follow PNH is because of Levis, Stetsons and spurs, I personally can't stand all that nonsense, I choose PNH to help my horse when other methods have made him exceptionally unhappy and we were getting no where, I am the bigger person for taking a less popular route and trying something different for the sake of my horse.  Do not critisize EVERYONE for one persons misjudgement.  I really do wonder about the nastiness of people in the horse world at times.  It is nothing more than bullying.  You should be ashamed of yourselves for using forums such as this to treat other horsey people like they are the lowest of the low because of the methods in horse training that they use.  My horse loves parelli and if he didn't like it I would not do it.  He loves his 7 games and the fun and the challenge of playing with a big ball, tarp cones and working on puzzles.  All of this helps him and if it helps him then it is not a bad thing.  SO PLEASE STOP CRITISIZING THE PEOPLE WHO PRACTICE PARELLI AND TREATING US LIKE WE ARE MORONS.    take up the issues you have with the demo by all means, but do not treat anyone who chooses this training method as if they have some disease.... a great many of us have worked with horses and had horses for a long time, we are not stupid or thick or suffering with a mid life crisis where we are so hormonal that we are fantacising about cowboys!  P L E A S E ... 

Click to expand...


I think the moron etc comments are aimed at the CLEARLY brainwashed people commenting on Linda's blog & on Facebook. Moron is the nicest word you could use for those people....


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## DragonSlayer (14 July 2010)

suejs001 said:



			You so called 'kick it on' conventional horse women are making it sound that anyone who has made an informed decision to try something other as bubble heads who don't have a brain cell to rub together with no horse knowledge what so ever.  

I am an intelligent educated horse woman, I take acception to what your comments insinuate about anyone who takes a different approach.  I would never treat my horse in such a way as to rope him and cut him to get him to the ground to bridle him.  If Pat Parelli did this for demo purposes then that is his issue and not the people who follow the programme.  I would suggest you stop being so discriminating against those who choose to work their horse in a different method than that of convention just because you don't believe in it.  I do not birate you for the way you choose to lunge your horse tied down in side reins or ride with your horses mouth tied down, and ... how very patronising of you to suggest the only reason we follow PNH is because of Levis, Stetsons and spurs, I personally can't stand all that nonsense, I choose PNH to help my horse when other methods have made him exceptionally unhappy and we were getting no where, I am the bigger person for taking a less popular route and trying something different for the sake of my horse.  Do not critisize EVERYONE for one persons misjudgement.  I really do wonder about the nastiness of people in the horse world at times.  It is nothing more than bullying.  You should be ashamed of yourselves for using forums such as this to treat other horsey people like they are the lowest of the low because of the methods in horse training that they use.  My horse loves parelli and if he didn't like it I would not do it.  He loves his 7 games and the fun and the challenge of playing with a big ball, tarp cones and working on puzzles.  All of this helps him and if it helps him then it is not a bad thing.  SO PLEASE STOP CRITISIZING THE PEOPLE WHO PRACTICE PARELLI AND TREATING US LIKE WE ARE MORONS.    take up the issues you have with the demo by all means, but do not treat anyone who chooses this training method as if they have some disease.... a great many of us have worked with horses and had horses for a long time, we are not stupid or thick or suffering with a mid life crisis where we are so hormonal that we are fantacising about cowboys!  P L E A S E ... 

Click to expand...

Firstly, not everyone has treated those who do Parelli like morons. I don't think the system is as good as it says by things I have seen during my life as a horsewoman.

What I DO object to is this, PP injured a horse through his actions. That is bad. It should not have happened, accident or not.

People I have met through Parelli treat those who don't do it as if THEY were morons, so it seems to be 6 of 1 and half a dozen of the other, doesn't it? 

They won't stop it and I doubt those who passionately don't like it will stop either.

If it works for you, thats great, and I can accept that, but my ways work for me, and the results are the horses themselves, in their health, attitudes to work and those handling them, and their general outlook on life.....


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## spottybotty (14 July 2010)

suejs001 said:



			You so called 'kick it on' conventional horse women are making it sound that anyone who has made an informed decision to try something other as bubble heads who don't have a brain cell to rub together with no horse knowledge what so ever.  

I am an intelligent educated horse woman, I take acception to what your comments insinuate about anyone who takes a different approach.  I would never treat my horse in such a way as to rope him and cut him to get him to the ground to bridle him.  If Pat Parelli did this for demo purposes then that is his issue and not the people who follow the programme.  I would suggest you stop being so discriminating against those who choose to work their horse in a different method than that of convention just because you don't believe in it.  I do not birate you for the way you choose to lunge your horse tied down in side reins or ride with your horses mouth tied down, and ... how very patronising of you to suggest the only reason we follow PNH is because of Levis, Stetsons and spurs, I personally can't stand all that nonsense, I choose PNH to help my horse when other methods have made him exceptionally unhappy and we were getting no where, I am the bigger person for taking a less popular route and trying something different for the sake of my horse.  Do not critisize EVERYONE for one persons misjudgement.  I really do wonder about the nastiness of people in the horse world at times.  It is nothing more than bullying.  You should be ashamed of yourselves for using forums such as this to treat other horsey people like they are the lowest of the low because of the methods in horse training that they use.  My horse loves parelli and if he didn't like it I would not do it.  He loves his 7 games and the fun and the challenge of playing with a big ball, tarp cones and working on puzzles.  All of this helps him and if it helps him then it is not a bad thing.  SO PLEASE STOP CRITISIZING THE PEOPLE WHO PRACTICE PARELLI AND TREATING US LIKE WE ARE MORONS.    take up the issues you have with the demo by all means, but do not treat anyone who chooses this training method as if they have some disease.... a great many of us have worked with horses and had horses for a long time, we are not stupid or thick or suffering with a mid life crisis where we are so hormonal that we are fantacising about cowboys!  P L E A S E ... 

Click to expand...

He is not Just any one doing PNH though and getting it wrong is he, he IS the BIG CHEESE , HE IS Mr Parrelli Natural Horsemanship.


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## eahotson (14 July 2010)

suejs001 I take your point as tongue in cheek has said something very similar in another post.I know a quite sensible man who does like to use some of the Parelli ground work with his horse.He is not blinded by the Parellis and doesn't like the demos as he objects to the way that Pat is treated as some sort of God.Any organization can do good things and turn out good people and it can also turn out some poor and do some ill judged things.I think that what most people are against is what happened on Saturday night.Some of the Parelli posts haven't helped by saying that basically if you don't agree with everything Pat Parelli does you are basically stupid.Then, of course, there is the commercialism.If Pat wasn't treated as a God there would have been some room for maneovre for him on Saturday which would have benefitted everyone, especially poor Catwalk.


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## humblepie (14 July 2010)

Off the thread and haven't read everything but if I was trying to do something to a horse that was funny about his head/ears and may go up....I would wear a bit of PPE!


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## SirenaXVI (14 July 2010)

suejs001 said:



			You so called 'kick it on' conventional horse women are making it sound that anyone who has made an informed decision to try something other as bubble heads who don't have a brain cell to rub together with no horse knowledge what so ever.  
'Kick it on'  horsewomen?  This shows a basic misunderstanding of how we treat our horses in the UK.  On the other hand, Pepperoni people over here tell us that we don't understand, love or know how to 'read' our horses and that their way is the only way.  No need to put blinkers on the horses, these people are already wearing them.  Practice and preach my dear.


I am an intelligent educated horse woman, I take acception to what your comments insinuate about anyone who takes a different approach.  I would never treat my horse in such a way as to rope him and cut him to get him to the ground to bridle him. 
I don't doubt your intelligence nor your taking 'Exception' see my paragraph above re practice and preach.  You may never treat a horse that way, yet your esteemed leader DID choose to do so.

 If Pat Parelli did this for demo purposes then that is his issue and not the people who follow the programme. 

But surely, this is HIS programme, again practice and preach

 I would suggest you stop being so discriminating against those who choose to work their horse in a different method than that of convention just because you don't believe in it. 
Oh dear I do hate to repeat myself BUT Practice and Preach 


 I do not birate you for the way you choose to lunge your horse tied down in side reins or ride with your horses mouth tied down,


Thank for your not bErating us but again you are surmising that everyone who practices 'conventional' means does this - hate to tell you this but you are SO wrong on so many levels

 and ... how very patronising of you to suggest the only reason we follow PNH is because of Levis, Stetsons and spurs, I personally can't stand all that nonsense, I choose PNH to help my horse when other methods have made him exceptionally unhappy and we were getting no where, I am the bigger person for taking a less popular route and trying something different for the sake of my horse.  Do not critisize EVERYONE for one persons misjudgement. 
This would make complete sense, however, repeating myself again, it was the head honcho who chose to use this very violent and non natural method, so yes it is entirely natural to blame the method HE started for his mistakes

 I really do wonder about the nastiness of people in the horse world at times.  It is nothing more than bullying.  You should be ashamed of yourselves for using forums such as this to treat other horsey people like they are the lowest of the low because of the methods in horse training that they use.  My horse loves parelli and if he didn't like it I would not do it.  He loves his 7 games and the fun and the challenge of playing with a big ball, tarp cones and working on puzzles.  All of this helps him and if it helps him then it is not a bad thing.  SO PLEASE STOP CRITISIZING THE PEOPLE WHO PRACTICE PARELLI AND TREATING US LIKE WE ARE MORONS.    take up the issues you have with the demo by all means, but do not treat anyone who chooses this training method as if they have some disease.... a great many of us have worked with horses and had horses for a long time, we are not stupid or thick or suffering with a mid life crisis where we are so hormonal that we are fantacising about cowboys!  P L E A S E ... 

Click to expand...

Now then, I am very glad that parelli works for your horse and I am so glad he loves it. 

I think people will stop treating parelli followers like morons when they stop treating us the same way.  Sadly there ARE many many morons who follow this path and they look down on anyone who does not practice their way, these, in the main tend to be novice horse owners and this is what gets peoples' backs up tbh.  I would be the first to admit that I do use some of the things PP preaches, some of them are very old fashioned horsesense and I am not for one moment insinuating that you are one of these sheep, one thing I would say though is that just like PP accuses others of, his followers need to be more open minded.

Regarding 'nastyness' this is actually in response to what we perceive to be horse abuse, people are very very upset and angry, there is no defence or perhaps you could offer some words in defence of the great man, other than 'you don't understand the concept' now THAT is patronizing


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## Sarah1 (14 July 2010)

SirenaXVI said:



Now then, I am very glad that parelli works for your horse and I am so glad he loves it. 

I think people will stop treating parelli followers like morons when they stop treating us the same way.  Sadly there ARE many many morons who follow this path and they look down on anyone who does not practice their way, these, in the main tend to be novice horse owners and this is what gets peoples' backs up tbh.  I would be the first to admit that I do use some of the things PP preaches, some of them are very old fashioned horsesense and I am not for one moment insinuating that you are one of these sheep, one thing I would say though is that just like PP accuses others of, his followers need to be more open minded.

Regarding 'nastyness' this is actually in response to what we perceive to be horse abuse, people are very very upset and angry, there is no defence or perhaps you could offer some words in defence of the great man, other than 'you don't understand the concept' now THAT is patronizing

Click to expand...

Agree 100% - thanks for taking the time to type all of that out - my own reply was going to be much shorter (not nearly as well explained as your version!) and probably not very tactful!

ETS - I tried to quote the whole thing, quotes & all but for some reason it didn't quite work!


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## teddyt (14 July 2010)

suejs001 said:



			You so called 'kick it on' conventional horse women are making it sound that anyone who has made an informed decision to try something other as bubble heads who don't have a brain cell to rub together with no horse knowledge what so ever.  

I am an intelligent educated horse woman, I take acception to what your comments insinuate about anyone who takes a different approach.  I would never treat my horse in such a way as to rope him and cut him to get him to the ground to bridle him.  If Pat Parelli did this for demo purposes then that is his issue and not the people who follow the programme.  I would suggest you stop being so discriminating against those who choose to work their horse in a different method than that of convention just because you don't believe in it.  I do not birate you for the way you choose to lunge your horse tied down in side reins or ride with your horses mouth tied down, and ... how very patronising of you to suggest the only reason we follow PNH is because of Levis, Stetsons and spurs, I personally can't stand all that nonsense, I choose PNH to help my horse when other methods have made him exceptionally unhappy and we were getting no where, I am the bigger person for taking a less popular route and trying something different for the sake of my horse.  Do not critisize EVERYONE for one persons misjudgement.  I really do wonder about the nastiness of people in the horse world at times.  It is nothing more than bullying.  You should be ashamed of yourselves for using forums such as this to treat other horsey people like they are the lowest of the low because of the methods in horse training that they use.  My horse loves parelli and if he didn't like it I would not do it.  He loves his 7 games and the fun and the challenge of playing with a big ball, tarp cones and working on puzzles.  All of this helps him and if it helps him then it is not a bad thing.  SO PLEASE STOP CRITISIZING THE PEOPLE WHO PRACTICE PARELLI AND TREATING US LIKE WE ARE MORONS.    take up the issues you have with the demo by all means, but do not treat anyone who chooses this training method as if they have some disease.... a great many of us have worked with horses and had horses for a long time, we are not stupid or thick or suffering with a mid life crisis where we are so hormonal that we are fantacising about cowboys!  P L E A S E ... 

Click to expand...


The thing is Sue, Parelli is over marketed, hyped up and designed to appeal to people. hence they are willing to purchase such ridiculous things as left handed lunge ropes! And part with a lot of money to follow the games. Even the terminology- games, savvy, etc- all clever marketing.

YOU DONT NEED ALL THAT! All you need is common sense, patience, feel,  and a regular training programme and you can teach a horse to do anything. Theres nothing wrong at all in following a training programme! But it is wrong when the founders of a 'system' have repeatedly used dubious methods on horses for their own financial gain and showmanship- dressed up as being for the horses benefit.They repeatedly write things such as twitching, roping, etc are wrong then proceed to doing just those things. Then when people have a go they say that you dont understand, dont have savvy and they think they saw something that didnt happen. They become arrogant and patronising and the wheels of marketing go into motion again to release heavily edited videos of 'lovely' scenes like Pat having lunch with the horse. People like having lunch together- not horses. Again, another clever marketing ploy to appeal to people. Well im not that silly.

They are surrounded by their own hype, they have a very clever marketing team. But people are starting to see through it for what it is- money making. Nothing wrong with making money BUT NOT AT THE EXPENSE OF THE HORSE.

Of course some of their system works- spend enough time with any horse with a stepwise progression of training and you can teach it to jump through a hoop of fire. So by all means play your games, teach a horse to play with a ball or whatever but do yourself a favour and use your imagination- instead of financially supporting a team that really dont have the horses best interests at heart at all. You dont need to do that. Then maybe horses wont have to suffer gumlines, legs tied with ropes, etc in the name of demonstrations and teaching people how to bridle a horse. Its all wrong


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## posie_honey (14 July 2010)

i have no problem with people practising parelli - or any other forms of 'horsemanship' - what should i care what you do if it works for you? i'm not saying i would do it but each to their own - live and let live and all that jazz - i've worked with gauchos to NH's practitioners - i use what works for me and my nag - i don't condone anyone who uses different methods to mine - hell - if i had a different horse I'D prob use different methodfs as one will not work for every horse

i respect people such as tounge-in-cheek - what i don't respect are the hoards of parelli devotees currently "praying" for me on facebook because i can't see the light  - i would not respect ANYONE who blindling follows a 'faith' without questioning it - fine defend it if you belive in it - but these people can't even seem to be able to do that - they just chant 'you don't see or understand' ffs


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## Kokopelli (14 July 2010)

*UN EDITED VIDEO OF CATWALK AND PAT PARELLI*

so the video is of bad quality but you can see everything pat does to teh poor horsehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gf7w_1ifus


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## Sarah1 (14 July 2010)

posie_honey said:



			what i don't respect are the hoards of parelli devotees currently "praying" for me on facebook because i can't see the light
		
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That is the funniest thing I've heard for ages - are they really 'praying' for the non-believers?!

Well to all those who have seen the light - don't bother praying for me - I don't believe in God either!


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## posie_honey (14 July 2010)

Sarah1 said:



			That is the funniest thing I've heard for ages - are they really 'praying' for the non-believers?!

Well to all those who have seen the light - don't bother praying for me - I don't believe in God either!
		
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yes - they are praying for us....

bless them


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## Crackerz (14 July 2010)

Sarah1 said:



			That is the funniest thing I've heard for ages - are they really 'praying' for the non-believers?!

Well to all those who have seen the light - don't bother praying for me - I don't believe in God either!
		
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ahhhh they'd love me, Atheist AND Anti-PNH 

The brainwashed people commenting on FB and Linda's blog sicken me almost as much as the video does


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## Sarah1 (14 July 2010)

posie_honey said:



			yes - they are praying for us....

bless them
		
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Pathetic - I reckon they need to have more to do in a day...


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## posie_honey (14 July 2010)

Sarah1 said:



			Pathetic - I reckon they need to have more to do in a day...  

Click to expand...

at least if they are praying for me they are not throwing a rope at their horses head in the name of horsemanship


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## rhino (14 July 2010)

Kokopelli said:



*UN EDITED VIDEO OF CATWALK AND PAT PARELLI*

so the video is of bad quality but you can see everything pat does to teh poor horsehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gf7w_1ifus

Click to expand...

Unedited?!!

The first session took in the region of 3 hours.


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## Amymay (14 July 2010)

roo2012 said:



			Unedited?!!

The first session took in the region of 3 hours.
		
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There are quite a few taken by the same person, just split up.


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## Kokopelli (14 July 2010)

roo2012 said:



			Unedited?!!

The first session took in the region of 3 hours.
		
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I meant they didn't cut out all the bad parts like in the previous video posted on youtube, sorry for the misunderstanding


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## Sarah1 (14 July 2010)

posie_honey said:



			at least if they are praying for me they are not throwing a rope at their horses head in the name of horsemanship 

Click to expand...

That is true...pray away folks, pray away...!


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## rhino (14 July 2010)

Kokopelli said:



			I meant they didn't cut out all the bad parts like in the previous video posted on youtube, sorry for the misunderstanding
		
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Sorry I read it wrong then.. It's certainly different from the official Parelli video, isn't it?

I would actually like to be able to watch the full session though.


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## brighteyes (14 July 2010)

amymay said:



			There are quite a few taken by the same person, just split up.
		
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Where?  The only ones I can see are not of Catwalk and PP...


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## Amymay (14 July 2010)

brighteyes said:



			Where?  The only ones I can see are not of Catwalk and PP...
		
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Ah, sorry this is the original one - not the one that was posted later, which was split up.


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## Tannis (14 July 2010)

This is what was advertised on the web site of FOTH about Parelli:

Parelli Pavilion

The Royal Festival of the Horse is delighted to welcome Pat and Linda Parelli. The Parelli programme stands alone as the world&#8217;s first step-by-step, learn at your own pace horse/human development programme. It was Linda and Pat Parelli who coined the often used phrase &#8216;natural horsemanship&#8217; and today they command the largest number of followers around the globe.

The Parelli method allows horse lovers at all levels and disciplines to achieve success without force, partnership without dominance, teamwork without fear, willingness without intimidation, and harmony without coercion. The Parelli programme combines common sense psychology and communication. The Parelli method teaches the human, not the horse.

Come along to the Parelli Pavilion at the Festival, open to all Festival visitors on Friday and Saturday. The Parelli Pavilion allows you a chance to find out more about natural horsemanship. Why not treat yourself on Friday or Saturday night to one of the evening gala performances when Pat and Linda will be sharing their valuable experiences. For more information about Parelli visit www.parelli.com


Hmm

success without force - so I won't need to wrestle a horse?

partnership without dominance - so I won't need to twitch a horse until I leave marks on its gums and tie its head to its legs?

teamwork without fear - so I won't have my horse rear and back away from me and I won't have to work with my horse on its hang ups infront of a crowd of people?

willingness without intimidation - so I won't have to have 2 people chasing my horse and forcing it's head down so I can reach?

harmony without coercion - so I won't have to yank at my horse's head when I know he's head shy and I won't have to inflict injury on him, no matter how minor?

The Parelli method teaches the human, not the horse - so when I've abused my horse, caused him physical injury and unknown emotional trauma in front of a large crowd, it's all ok because it's in the name of education for all the people who have paid to watch me man handle, wrestle and dominate my horse?

Just a thought - if we were to do a survey of all the audience, I wonder how many people could honestly say that they had learnt something positive about how to handle horses!

Oh, and I forgot - as it says in the last paragaph - don't forge to "treat yourself" to the abuse

Unreal !!!!!!

FOTH, hang your head in shame!


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## KS1 (14 July 2010)

I was happy to accept that catwalk may have sustained a cut after someone said they saw it, now I wonder, did they see something they thought was a cut and put 2 and 2 together and came up with 5?

Some say they were there when the vet examined Catwalk, again I ponder with so many people saying they were there how did the vet squeeze in?

Here is a statement from a 3* Profesional who is highly recommended. I have attended his courses and he is 110% for the horse, cares about each horse as an individual and gives it to you straight. Here is his statement.

I was with catwalk straight after the demo on Friday night, with Rob, and although I appreciate the demo was upsetting for a lot of people, catwalk did not break into a sweat, and was not injured in any way. I also spent the whole day watching Pat play with catwalk, with Rob, and was present when the vet came to see him, and can quote that the vet said there were no lesions, cuts or any damage to the horse whatsover. A second demo was never planned, and the horse was certainly not unfit to be helped the next day, and even competed on the Sunday. By 6 o'clock on Saturday, myself and Rob were able to bridle catwalk. I have spoken to Rob several times since and progress is great. Rob is very pleased and very apreciative of what Pat has done, and we have now helped several horses that they were unable to. Rob will continue to use our help and is very grateful. 

There seems to be a lot of confusion regarding what was said by the vets, and what has been done. If anyone is interested in hearing what was said and what was done on the Saturday, please feel free to call me. 

Everyone is of course entitled to their opinion, which we should respect, but some facts seem to be fabricated. Apart from myself, Rob, linda, neil and Sue, and Pat, no one else was present, which is why it would be impossible for anyone to have heard the vets report, so it has been made up. 

I will not get time to visit the forum again, so if you have any comments, questions or confusions, please call me. 

Thanks for Reading, 

James Roberts  

I have James phone number and email address if you wish to call him.


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## SirenaXVI (14 July 2010)

KS1 said:



			I was happy to accept that catwalk may have sustained a cut after someone said they saw it, now I wonder, did they see something they thought was a cut and put 2 and 2 together and came up with 5?

Some say they were there when the vet examined Catwalk, again I ponder with so many people saying they were there how did the vet squeeze in?

Here is a statement from a 3* Profesional who is highly recommended. I have attended his courses and he is 110% for the horse, cares about each horse as an individual and gives it to you straight. Here is his statement.

I was with catwalk straight after the demo on Friday night, with Rob, and although I appreciate the demo was upsetting for a lot of people, catwalk did not break into a sweat, and was not injured in any way. I also spent the whole day watching Pat play with catwalk, with Rob, and was present when the vet came to see him, and can quote that the vet said there were no lesions, cuts or any damage to the horse whatsover. A second demo was never planned, and the horse was certainly not unfit to be helped the next day, and even competed on the Sunday. By 6 o'clock on Saturday, myself and Rob were able to bridle catwalk. I have spoken to Rob several times since and progress is great. Rob is very pleased and very apreciative of what Pat has done, and we have now helped several horses that they were unable to. Rob will continue to use our help and is very grateful. 

There seems to be a lot of confusion regarding what was said by the vets, and what has been done. If anyone is interested in hearing what was said and what was done on the Saturday, please feel free to call me. 

Everyone is of course entitled to their opinion, which we should respect, but some facts seem to be fabricated. Apart from myself, Rob, linda, neil and Sue, and Pat, no one else was present, which is why it would be impossible for anyone to have heard the vets report, so it has been made up. 

I will not get time to visit the forum again, so if you have any comments, questions or confusions, please call me. 

Thanks for Reading, 

James Roberts  

I have James phone number and email address if you wish to call him.
		
Click to expand...

The first thing that jumps out at me from that statement is that there was no demo planned for Catwalk on the Saturday, this is blatantly not true, the Parelli's themselves stated that the demo would continue on Saturday, their website confirmed this.  If the vet said that there was no lesion, why then are the BHS investigating?


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## Crackerz (14 July 2010)

TBH i dont care whether there were cuts or not. (well i do, but you get what i mean in a mo). The fact is, excess force and un-needed tools were used on clearly confused horse, for a problem that could have been sorted out without it.

BHS state the vet DID say the horse was un-able to continue in further demos. Who's lieing?

RW should never ever have stood aside and let what happened happen. He now has his buddies to essentially say he was right. 


Still, PP is nothing better than dirt on my shoe to me.


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## Shysmum (14 July 2010)

spin, spin, spin - damage limitation way too late. *sigh*


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## Onyxia (14 July 2010)

shysmum said:



			I think the more people we complain to the better, tbh. The Daily Mail do like animal abuse stories....but then again so does The Sun .
		
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Excpet both of those like to paint anyone bar Zara Phillips as an animal abuser 
Still,IF a journo decides to follow up the story and understands that it is purely the fault of the people in the arena,it would be a positive step-nothing the RSPCA likes better then an outraged public


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## Tannis (14 July 2010)

KS1 said:



			IRob is very pleased and very apreciative of what Pat has done, and we have now helped several horses that they were unable to. Rob will continue to use our help and is very grateful.
		
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So does James work for Pat?

Who is the "we" quoted as in "we have now helped several horses that they were unable to"?


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## KS1 (14 July 2010)

If anyone needs answers to their questions do contact James, he is willing to talk to you about what went on and as he worked with catwalk afterward it puts him in a better place to know how catwalk really was.

Also a thought, catwalk competed in a jumping class on the Sunday, if a vet said he was not fit to carry on with a demonstration why was it given that he could be worked on during Saturday and allowed to compete on the Sunday?

This questioning in my mind is what makes me think there maybe wasn't any cuts at all and as for the BHS investigating, if many have phoned in complaining the BHS will investigate. However I bet many who phoned in did so without knowing the facts and only went on from what they read.

The BHS need to respond to all calls as a matter of routine it does not mean there is any harm actually being done. It wil be interesting to see what they report.

I am not taking sides with Parelli nor H&H, I too would just like to know.


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## Tannis (14 July 2010)

Actually I don't believe the BHS do respond to every call.  When my stallion was abused by his producer, I phoned to see what could be done and I was told nothing without video evidence.

Given that there is evidence and apparently statements from people, IF BHS have investigated, they must have felt that there was something to investigate.

And the question still hasn't been answered - does James work for the Parelli's?


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## Chestnuttymare (14 July 2010)

So has there been no damage limitation attempted by PP? He must know about this and all the other forums with huge discussions, or does he think that if he ignores it that it will all go away?
I really thought the PNH media machine would have been in action by now.


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## rhino (14 July 2010)

Tannis said:



			Actually I don't believe the BHS do respond to every call.  When my stallion was abused by his producer, I phoned to see what could be done and I was told nothing without video evidence.

Given that there is evidence and apparently statements from people, IF BHS have investigated, they must have felt that there was something to investigate.

And the question still hasn't been answered - does James work for the Parelli's?
		
Click to expand...

http://www.jr-foundationstation.com/


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## drover (14 July 2010)

I agree with the many people who say parelli are just out to make fast $$$$.

They now even offer anybody with a few thousand pounds to go and spent a week with them and become a perelli endorsed instructor regardless of if they have any equine knowledge or experience at all(ok maybe they can wiggle a rope)!

unfortunately then people believing these instructors are worth learning from as they are endorsed by a big company then pay good money for rubbish. its dangerous.

parelli claim to care about 'the horse' unfortunately all they really care about is their bank balance and ego as demonstrated on friday.

Hopefully some good will come of this saga.


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## Tannis (14 July 2010)

Thank you for posting the link that explains who James is


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## galaxy (14 July 2010)

roo2012 said:



http://www.jr-foundationstation.com/

Click to expand...

lol!  that would be a yes then!! 

and KS1....  a few pages back someone pasted their email reply from the BHS confirming that they had called a vet to examine Catwalk who had confirmed he had cuts on his gums and deemed him unfit to continue in the demonstrations.

I think it was Lee Hackett who had sent the email to them.  Why don't you give him a call (his phone humber was provided with the email) to confirm a vet definitly DID see the horse.


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## DragonSlayer (14 July 2010)

snowmanbaby said:



			WELL DONE  a  "natural horseman/woman"  -  but died you wear a stetson, and spurs and levis?  and have a lot of people watching you, who had to write cheques???  I think not...

Well done you, and you have my respect and admiration....

This is the BIG turning point for the Parelli money spinning nonsense...!  It is ALL about circus tricks, and cheque books.....
		
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Hahaha!

No, we didn't! We often wondered if we would ever succeed, but by god...we did....and I'm thankful we did!


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## flash1 (14 July 2010)

Supertrooper said:



			One of the most intelligent replies I've read on this thread and funnily enough I've heard it said about a 'popular' tv dog trainer who likes to use force as a training method saying it's what dogs do to each other. NO it's not, how can we as humans ever be as good at body language and the nuances of reading body signals as dogs/horses or any other species. Like you say, smacking a horse under the chin or anywhere to stimulate a horse bite isn't that it's ABUSE pure and simple!!
		
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I have had the same thoughts about that dog trainer, but like PP some people think hes some sort of God and if you disagree with his method you dont understand!

maybe now people will see this for what it really is.


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## chrisnapthineEDT (14 July 2010)

Right people a few words here,
Today I spoke to louise and robert and made them fully aware of what was happening,and they where not aware at all,so asked me to post the following....

We are truely shocked at what has happened and knew nothing of the treatment as robert dropped catwalk off and did not stay to see the demonstration,if he had then please rest assured that it would of been stopped,we in no way condone any treatment that in any way causes distress or pain to any horse! Catwalk did recive a small cut,abraision but rest assured that he is reciving any veterinary treatment to correct this.he was ridden out this morning though with no signs of discomfort.and he will be monitored on the progress,we are just as sorry as anyone else that he was treated in this way and rest assured we will be looking into this.....


So there you have it ppl, and they are the most down to earth people you will ever meet who put the welfare of there horses before anything else.......
Chris


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## martlin (14 July 2010)

hmmm, that's interesting as we have reports from people here claiming that they have confronted Robert Whittaker and Pat Parelli at the demo... so, which one is it? was he there or not?


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## teddyt (14 July 2010)

After realising how little he really knew about horses, and how much there was to know, James took the decision to quit his successful business to embark on a new journey, starting with an apprenticeship with Dave Stuart, master horseman and *former* 5 star Parelli Professional and Charlotte Dennis, *former* 3 star Parelli professional and eventer.
		
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From james roberts website. I wonder why the two people stated are called former parelli professionals? I *think* charlotte dennis fell out with the parellis and left over a disagreement about methods. Maybe someone else knows?


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## Chestnuttymare (14 July 2010)

James roberts also said he was with Rob and pat etc with the horse straight after the demo when he was examined by the vet. So methinks people really need to get their story straight!

teddy, I was led to believe that there were differenced from a business point of view, but could be wrong.


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## Puppy (14 July 2010)

roo2012 said:



http://www.jr-foundationstation.com/

Click to expand...





			James Roberts has extensive experience starting young horses, foundation training, and challenging horses, and has been endorsed by Pat Parelli.
		
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## CracklinRosie (14 July 2010)

..........louise and robert who??????


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## Capriole (14 July 2010)

[/B]

So from someone who works for/with PP



KS1 said:



			I also spent the whole day watching Pat play with catwalk, with Rob, and was present when the vet came to see him, and can quote that *the vet said there were no lesions, cuts or any damage to the horse whatsover. A second demo was never planned, and the horse was certainly not unfit to be helped the next day*

Everyone is of course entitled to their opinion, which we should respect, but some facts seem to be fabricated. *Apart from myself, Rob, linda, neil and Sue, and Pat, no one else was present*, which is why it would be impossible for anyone to have heard the vets report, so it has been made up.
		
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and through a member, from RW 



chrisnapthine said:



			We are truely shocked at what has happened and knew nothing of the treatment as *robert dropped catwalk off and did not stay to see the demonstration*,if he had then please rest assured that it would of been stopped,we in no way condone any treatment that in any way causes distress or pain to any horse! *Catwalk did recive a small cut,abraision* but rest assured that he is reciving any veterinary treatment to correct this.
		
Click to expand...




martlin said:



			hmmm, that's interesting as we have reports from people here claiming that they have confronted Robert Whittaker and Pat Parelli at the demo... so, which one is it? was he there or not?
		
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there is a web of lies about this event, all i can believe is the video clips atm, very confusing


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## R2R (14 July 2010)

Petition for anti and pro parellians to sign - also a seperate thread

This petition has been set up to urge equine welfare charities to launch an official investigation into the Parelli demonstration at the Royal Festival of the Horse, 9-11 July 2010, and specifically Pat and Linda Parelli&#8217;s treatment of the stallion &#8216;Catwalk&#8217; both during and after the demonstration. 
The undersigned, regardless of belief in the practice of Parelli methods, believe a full investigation into the exact occurrences at Stonleigh is necessary in order to clarify allegations of bad practice and abuse during this demonstration. 


http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/parelli_investigation/

Please sign and pass onto contacts. Rather than flooding BHS/welfare charities perhaps we can point them in the direction of this petition.


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## Puppy (14 July 2010)

chrisnapthine said:



			Right people a few words here,
Today I spoke to louise and robert and made them fully aware of what was happening,and they where not aware at all,so asked me to post the following....

We are truely shocked at what has happened and knew nothing of the treatment as robert dropped catwalk off and did not stay to see the demonstration,if he had then please rest assured that it would of been stopped,we in no way condone any treatment that in any way causes distress or pain to any horse! Catwalk did recive a small cut,abraision but rest assured that he is reciving any veterinary treatment to correct this.he was ridden out this morning though with no signs of discomfort.and he will be monitored on the progress,we are just as sorry as anyone else that he was treated in this way and rest assured we will be looking into this.....


So there you have it ppl, and they are the most down to earth people you will ever meet who put the welfare of there horses before anything else.......
Chris
		
Click to expand...

Hmmmmm.... But people said they saw RW there?!


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## teddyt (14 July 2010)

chestnuttymare said:



			James roberts also said he was with Rob and pat etc with the horse straight after the demo when he was examined by the vet. So methinks people really need to get their story straight!
		
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curiouser and curiouser 




			teddy, I was led to believe that there were differenced from a business point of view, but could be wrong.
		
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Maybe she didnt agree with ripping people off for left handed lunge lines etc


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## Tannis (14 July 2010)

KS1 said:



I was with catwalk straight after the demo on Friday night, with Rob, and although I appreciate the demo was upsetting for a lot of people, catwalk did not break into a sweat, and was not injured in any way. 

Apart from myself, Rob, linda, neil and Sue, and Pat, no one else was present, which is why it would be impossible for anyone to have heard the vets report, so it has been made up. 


James Roberts  

Click to expand...


So who do we believe now?

The eye witnesses say Robert was present
The 3* professional defending the behaviour says Robert was present
Robert says he wasn't present

Robert says the horse was injured
BHS have confirmed that a vet attended and was injured
The 3* professional defending says the horse was not injured

As Judge Judy says "don't lie - you need a good memory to lie"


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## CracklinRosie (14 July 2010)

And anoher thing.....................3* professional what?


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## Natch (14 July 2010)

teddyt said:



			From james roberts website. I wonder why the two people stated are called former parelli professionals? I *think* charlotte dennis fell out with the parellis and left over a disagreement about methods. Maybe someone else knows?
		
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There were fallings out at Parelli a few years ago, weren't there?
Dave Stuart - I think had his own ideas of how to develop horsemanship, but it is reported that Pat said its my way or the highway.

No idea about why Charlotte Dennis left.

I have NO respect for Dave Stuart, having seen him in demos 2-3 times (pre-and post parelli split) and been appauled each time by his actions towards horses. 

I think Charlotte is the one who had the more difficult starter horse in a demo I watched, and the blokes were treating her rather patronisingly and took the horse off her in the end. IIRC she was prepared to leave it as the horse wasn't showing that he/she was ready to be sat on, but the bloke who took it off her "rode through it" if you like, to achieve the end goal in front of the audience.  Sound familliar? 

edited to say it was around about this time that the BHS were interested in including it in their system, when "it" (I lose track of what it was then!) was called Equine Ethology. As far as I know, the plans never came to fruition.


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## chrisnapthineEDT (14 July 2010)

Tannis said:



			So who do we believe now?

The eye witnesses say Robert was present
The 3* professional defending the behaviour says Robert was present
Robert says he wasn't present

Robert says the horse was injured
BHS have confirmed that a vet attended and was injured
The 3* professional defending says the horse was not injured

As Judge Judy says "don't lie - you need a good memory to lie"
		
Click to expand...

He was there to drop him off and collect but did not see the main of this treatment being carried out


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## Natch (14 July 2010)

Tannis said:



			The eye witnesses say Robert was present
		
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I _think_ the eyewitnesses say Robert was present when they confronted Pat _afterwards_


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## Tannis (14 July 2010)

CracklinRosie said:



			And anoher thing.....................3* professional what?
		
Click to expand...


Apparently trained to Parelli 3*

Interesting, another trainer (got the link from James' website) says she has used Parelli to help her understand her horse and take up affiliated British Eventing - this is her current web site.  Quick look at BE and it shows she has done 4 events - 3 in 2003 and 1 in 2006, entered 4, turned up at 3, completed 2 and placed at 1.  Wonder if she qualified before or after 2006???


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## martlin (14 July 2010)

chrisnapthine said:



			He was there to drop him off and collect but did not see the main of this treatment being carried out
		
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And presumably has been confronted by angry/upset members of the audience, no?
To which he responded: It's OK by me...
and now he is outraged, yes?


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## teddyt (14 July 2010)

CracklinRosie said:



			And anoher thing.....................3* professional what?
		
Click to expand...

PMSL there are a lot of replies for that question! Especially with opinions like this-




			I have NO respect for Dave Stuart, having seen him in demos 2-3 times (pre-and post parelli split) and been appauled each time by his actions towards horses
		
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Seems tere are lots of incidents involving these so called  professionals that have left people appalled. If it really is just a case of 'us' misunderstanding parellis methods there are an awful lot of people out there that appear to be stupid!


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## Onyxia (14 July 2010)

teddyt said:



			Seems tere are lots of incidents involving these so called  professionals that have left people appalled. If it really is just a case of 'us' misunderstanding parellis methods there are an awful lot of people out there that appear to be stupid!
		
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Or a lot of Parelli teachers who can't teach for toffie


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## Troylimbo1 (14 July 2010)

Sign here if you would like to see an investigation into what happened...

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/parelli_investigation


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## Munchkin (14 July 2010)

This is getting a little silly now. 

Of course the whole thing was officially filmed, but we're never going to see the footage.

If the Parellis really believe that this was suitable for a demo, they would be releasing it now, as damage control. The fact that they're not, suggests that they feel otherwise.

And before a Parellist jumps on me and says that the footage cannot be released as we wouldn't understand it, may I remind you that it was filmed AT A PUBLIC DEMONSTRATION EVENT.


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## lauracrawly (14 July 2010)

if anyone fancies a laugh you ought to look on the parelli natural horsemanship facebook page ,they are nuts on there. i am shocked at how they are trying to justify the treatment of that horse ,and also saying how it would have gone for dog food if pp had not helped it ,now i have worked with top name showjumpers and if the horse is worth the money that one is they are not gonna sell it to the knacker man for a few quid coz they struggle to get its bridle on ,i have never seen so much **** written on one web page ,as someone said earlier its like a cult ! i have never been in to the brand "parelli" as i have always thought it was just con ,im sorry but a "carrot stick" and paying fortunes for a dvd ,more money than sence i say. if pat and linda parelli really gave a toss about the horses would they not sell there dvd and equipment at a low price so all people could try it if they wanted ? thats my rant anyway ,


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## YorksG (14 July 2010)

I just find it bizzare that any member of the Whittaker family needs to get anyone from outside the family in to sort out a problem with a horse! I simply muse on how much PP paid to use this horse in the demo.


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## Munchkin (14 July 2010)

There was no money involved


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## KS1 (14 July 2010)

If the BHS have had more than a few calls regarding an issue they will investigate.

James is a 3* instructor so yes he works under the parelli name, one thing I like about James is he is not brainwashed with Parelli. As an example in his words he does not think the circling game where you stand still not moving your feet while the horse walks, trots or canters around you is good. He stated that you can't watch your horses movement while it is behind you but on the samenote does not like the often seen approach to nagging a horse when it is already doing what you have asked. "Walk on, walk on, cluck cluck , walk on nag nag nag"

He plays with each horse as an individual and is more interested in helping horses get a good start in life or help horses that people have created problems with rather than travel the country to make money.

He has also been known to give free clinics with you and your horse at his establishment. So for him its not about making money.

What amazes me is that I am trying hard to see points from both sides, not make my own assumptions as I never examined catwalk, I am not the vet, I am just someone who too got upset at seeing a gum line used and to see catwalk go from being relaxed to becoming more stressed when the bridle was intorduced.

What I do see here is while people are concerned about Catwalk the topic sees to be steering about attacking Parelli in general. I know .. I know it was a Parelli demo but I don't think its the Parelli programme to blame here just the man himself and the decisions he made.

So what if someone works for Parelli it does not instantly make them a bad person. I only made that comment as instantly someone said "Does he work for Parelli" when I posted James reply.

I am just like you all in the sence that it was upsetting to see catwalk unsettled, however I also feel Robert Whitaker should have considered his horse more but hardy anyone seems to make any digs at him.

He had only bought Catwalk 8 weeks ago, no where near enough time to allow Catwalk to settle in fully in the new surroundings and how long was he at Robert's yard before being put straght into training?  
Then Catwalk is taken to a new venue with and used for a demo, that horse was so good to cope with all that and could have been a real effort to work with but he was brilliant considering.

All seemed great right up to where the bareback pad was used then when I thought Pat should have stopped he carried on. That is the one thing I would like to know as it is always said to us to stop on a good note. Pat never on Friday.

Please don't think I am taking sides which I have said a few times as I am not, I am trying to understand, its like sitting in on a court case listening to evidence with both sides giving there versions and then waitng in anticiption to the jury's decision and even then the truth is sometimes unknown.


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## YorksG (14 July 2010)

Munchkin said:



			There was no money involved 

Click to expand...

Good grief, that does surprise me!


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## 3BayGeldings (14 July 2010)

Robert got into parelli as his friend practices it and was doing a demonstration of it at the British Open. It's not about money, I don't see why people would think it was.


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## Sooty (14 July 2010)

Pfft. The whole thing only took two minutes, and the horse got to eat a sandwich.

http://www.youtube.com/user/ParelliTube#p/u/0/8j25pS6ixWk

Presumably, they couldn't show the other six or seven hours...

What, exactly, is a 3* Parelli professional?


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## YorksG (14 July 2010)

_JH_ said:



			Robert got into parelli as his friend practices it and was doing a demonstration of it at the British Open. It's not about money, I don't see why people would think it was.
		
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If you had ever played dominoes for 10p a corner with Donald and listened to the stories then you would see why people would think it was


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## KS1 (14 July 2010)

Troylimbo1 said:



			Sign here if you would like to see an investigation into what happened...

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/parelli_investigation

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Why is this asking for donations, who does the money go to? And why is it american when its a UK issue? (assuming american as money is asked for in dollars)


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## Munchkin (14 July 2010)

KS1 said:



			Why is this asking for donations, who does the money go to? And why is it american when its a UK issue? (assuming american as money is asked for in dollars)
		
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It's just a website that is used to host petitions, it happens to be American, and they run it for free, therefore ask for voluntary donations.


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## henryhorn (14 July 2010)

Well Shutterfoto I have had a very long association with stallions and there is something you learn early on, you need them to respect you not fear you.
A frightened stallion easily turns into a very angry one, which is dangerous.
I didn't see the demo so can't really comment other than from the reports on here, but from what they say PP attempted to subdue the stallion into submission to be bridled. 
This is the silliest possible method, and asking for trouble. 
The Whittakers are so experience dhtey will I am absolutely sure have tried many methods of solving the problem, from checking the stallion has no minor old injury under the headpiece area to his mouth. The most sensible way to deal with this would in my opinion to have him wear an ultrasoft perfectly fitting bridle all the time minus the bit and reins, which you would clip on when necessary.
It would be no worse that wearing a headcollar. 
There is something intrinsically wrong when you see a horse totally dominated by someone, I have seen a few in demos, and it's not a nice thing to watch. They aren't being with them as in a Monty R demo because they wan to be there, they are doing it because they are too damn scared not to be, which is hugely different.
Sadly the P machine has such good publicity you see hundreds of followers behaving like sheep much as the dominated horses do. 
Watch carefully at the next demo, and the horses stay near the handlers because they are worried about displeasing them, something 100% different from wanting to be with them. When you are experienced enough to see that happening, then you don't like what you see.
But as a P follower I can't ever see you being open minded enough to even consider anything they do is wrong, it's very like brainwashing.
I've spent most of my life with horses, made some horrendous mistakes, beaten horses, trained them well, learned how they tick and can I think now see what works and what doesn't. 
I can move whole herds of them from field to field with one yell; be followed nose in back without a headcollar by any of them etc and still realise I can only touch the surface of the real knowledge I need to handle them properly.  We don't use titbits etc just the horse behaviour they exhibit in their natural lives. 
(we also use traditional training methods to achieve success eventing too)
I can't agree what he appears to have done is the right way to treat this horse, so we will have to agree to disagree.


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## KS1 (14 July 2010)

LOL this is where you see another side of me, now while I like some Parelli methods the star rating doesn't speak volumes.

This is my understanding only and I may have a few details wrong but here it is...

Here is goes on becoming a star rated instructor you need to either go to america and attend a 10 week course or attend a fast track course in the UK or the USA and also complete a 6 week course in the USA. 

All these courses costs thousands, just to attend a 6 week course you are talking in the region of £10,000. That incudes flights, hire of horse and accommodation etc.

You are then given your 1* rating, you then have to do 50 hours of teaching and attend another 6 week course to gain your 2*

I then think you need to teach for a year and attend another 6 week course to gain your 3* and so forth.

In other words to me you need not to have any knowledge of horse care and management or have experience with working with various horses. 

Instead if you can take time off work, have loads of money to spend you can become a parelli instructor oh and you must pay to parelli a yearly sum to be licensed with them if you don't pay this fee you cannot call yourself a star rated instuctor or use the parelli name.

So if you decide to break away and become freelance you've spent thousands for nothing apart from having gained some experience.

Now what gets me is these intructors could have no idea of horses on a proper scale. I mean I have a HND diploma in horse care and management but if you asked me anything about it now there is loads I have forgotten. So just because you have a bit of paper or a coloured string does not make you a good trainer/instructor etc.

Mind some catch up revision would soon bring things back to me but what I am saying is just because you have attend a 6 week course and given some lessons does not mean your a good instructor, crickey I have seen loads of BHS qualified people who were C**p at teaching and caused more problems than they were paid to correct.

Hope that expalins what a star rated instructor is

oh and to simplify

1* Instructor can only teach On-line (for free)
2* Instructor can only teach On-Line and Freestyle (at a reduced rate)
3* Instructor can only teach On-Line, Freestyle and Liberty
4* Instructor can teach On-Line, Freestyle, Liberty and Finesse

Level 3* and 4* I think can charge what they like.

Private lessons can range between £60 and £75 per hour which to me is crazy but some people do pay it.


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## KS1 (14 July 2010)

Cheers Munchkin, how do you get to see if a petition is started and see posts made by people, I could not see anything


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## Tannis (14 July 2010)

Naturally said:



			I _think_ the eyewitnesses say Robert was present when they confronted Pat _afterwards_ 

Click to expand...


Elsbells said on page 1 that they approached Robert at the time - the post says "we spoke to Robert as they came out"


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## Tannis (14 July 2010)

henryhorn said:



			I've spent most of my life with horses, made some horrendous mistakes, beaten horses, trained them well, learned how they tick and can I think now see what works and what doesn't. 
I can move whole herds of them from field to field with one yell; be followed nose in back without a headcollar by any of them etc and still realise I can only touch the surface of the real knowledge I need to handle them properly.  We don't use titbits etc just the horse behaviour they exhibit in their natural lives. 
(we also use traditional training methods to achieve success eventing too)
I can't agree what he appears to have done is the right way to treat this horse, so we will have to agree to disagree.
		
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Am loving your honesty.  I think most of us would have to admit to having made big mistakes.  Some of us even try and learn from them and henryhorn - sounds like you did just that.  Well done that chap


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## Munchkin (14 July 2010)

KS1 said:



			Cheers Munchkin, how do you get to see if a petition is started and see posts made by people, I could not see anything
		
Click to expand...

Just hit the Signatures tab...


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## KS1 (14 July 2010)

henryhorn said:



			Well Shutterfoto I have had a very long association with stallions and there is something you learn early on, you need them to respect you not fear you.
A frightened stallion easily turns into a very angry one, which is dangerous.
I didn't see the demo so can't really comment other than from the reports on here, but from what they say PP attempted to subdue the stallion into submission to be bridled. 
This is the silliest possible method, and asking for trouble.
		
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I was on a yard with my horses that had to run as a stud yard first and as a livery yard second because of the church, the YO was clueless, not been involved with horses for 20 years and she was the novice of novices. The stallion a beautiful golden Wesh Section D was not an easy horse to manage. The YO would lead him out with a heavy cane and either a bridle or a headcollar with the chain wrapped around his nose and he still dragged her to whereever he wanted to go. When she wanted him schooled or ridden it was me that did this and I found him a pleasure. I tried many a time to convince her bullying him or trying to dominate him was the wrong thing. She even got another novice to race him on the lunge line for 10 min and they were both pleased at the fact he was dripping in sweat. I shook my head in disgust.

After that I refused to help her as I was being steady and gaining respect albiet slowly while they undid my work in seconds. I left the yard over a year ago as it was becoming a safety hazard for my horses and I did not like seeing how the horses were treated. They are now being watched and monitered by WHW.

I myself am not experienced in handling stallions on a long term schedule but I know enough not take them for granted and to respect them at all times.


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## Bramley (14 July 2010)

Puppy said:



			Hmmmmm.... But people said they saw RW there?! 

Click to expand...

I spoke personally to Robert Whittacker to see if this was ok by him. He said he didn't have to talk to me. When i pressed him he said it was ok by him for the horse to recieve this treatment.


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## KS1 (14 July 2010)

When I first clicked on the signature tab nothing came up but does now ,, thanks


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## KS1 (14 July 2010)

In response to Charlotte Dennis and Dave Stewart, they planned from a early start to set up EE, along with other members of staff of the Parelli organisation. Right from when Pat and Linda first came to the UK.

You could see applications from years ago to set up Equine Ethology (EE). Of which the name was also in battle with the initals EE being also associated with Enlightened Equitation.

It is also my understanding that they used the name of PNH to help set themselves up which became a legal battle.

Most that follow PNH stuck by Parelli and the first conference set up by Charlotte and David at which Ray Hunt and Carl Hester where present did not fare well and EE collapsed. Charlotte and Dennis then went freelance and though I hear nothing of Charlotte I do see David still gives clinics.


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## domane (14 July 2010)

chrisnapthineEDT said:



			We are truely shocked at what has happened and knew nothing of the treatment as robert dropped catwalk off and did not stay to see the demonstration,
		
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With the greatest of respect... if you had a horse that was severely bridle-shy and took it to a "professional", wouldn't you at least hang around to see how they got on???  I know I would!

Something about this does not ring true......


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## Shysmum (14 July 2010)

Bramley was THERE and SPOKE to Whittaker. He is coming out with damage limitation.


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## teddyt (14 July 2010)

shysmum said:



			Bramley was THERE and SPOKE to Whittaker. He is coming out with damage limitation.
		
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Perhaps hes got the same PR people as Pat


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## 3BayGeldings (14 July 2010)

I'm sorry to be so pedantic but if we're all going to talk about Robert Whitaker can we at least spell his surname right?!


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## tiggs (14 July 2010)

US newspaper article
http://www.examiner.com/x-7431-Anim...m7d14-2010-Festival-of-the-Horse-Parelli-demo


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## jaypeebee (14 July 2010)

Are there are more videos (apart from all of the ones shown on this thread) showing more intense interaction between Pat Parelli and the horse?  I cant see anything on any of those videos that horrifies me like it seems to have horrified the majority of the posters on this thread.  Its all a bit melodramatic to me.


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## eahotson (14 July 2010)

KS1 I blame Robert every bit as much as Pat Parelli which is why I contacted the BSJA.They have not had the courtesy to reply unlike the BHS.


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## MadasaFerret (14 July 2010)

Crackerz said:



			ahhhh they'd love me, Atheist AND Anti-PNH 

The brainwashed people commenting on FB and Linda's blog sicken me almost as much as the video does
		
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Yup, I read a lot of PP books, I stayed awake through quite a few of his DVDs that a friend lent me. I have read the Bible from cover to cover and thought about PP and the Bible and come to the same conclusion it's all a load of tosh...sadly both Bible bashers and PP devotees won't leave me alone to wallow in my pit of delusion. 
I did read about it, I did investigate, but because I didn't follow it I am branded as some kind of narrow minded bigot.

Never mind, us atheists have broad shoulders.


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## DragonSlayer (14 July 2010)

MadasaFerret said:



			Yup, I read a lot of PP books, I stayed awake through quite a few of his DVDs that a friend lent me. I have read the Bible from cover to cover and thought about PP and the Bible and come to the same conclusion it's all a load of tosh...sadly both Bible bashers and PP devotees won't leave me alone to wallow in my pit of delusion. 
I did read about it, I did investigate, but because I didn't follow it I am branded as some kind of narrow minded bigot.

Never mind, us atheists have broad shoulders.
		
Click to expand...

I can accept you are an atheist, but I hate the term 'Bible Bashers'....I'm a gnostic myself....


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## zareeba (14 July 2010)

savvylover112 said:



			Catwalk appeared to be an extreme horse and extreme methods where put in place for an extreme horse. 

Another thing I would like people to consider is the fact of how different stallions are handled by everyone than mares and geldings. They are kept in confinement away from most horses and will try to defend their territory when they feel threatened and they tend to feel threatened a lot of the time. All stallions can appear to be the same as all horses but they are dominant and extreme. Pat needed to be the dominant figure in the equation and it appears he had to be extreme in asserting his dominance. 

Shauna
		
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If you think Catwalk appeared to be an extreme horse I can only assume your experience of difficult horses is very limited. There was nothing at all extreme in the behaviour I have seen in the video - if it was extreme at any other time, can someone enlighten me?

And FYI while some people may still keep stallions in confinement away from other horses, that shows a complete lack of understanding of a stallion's needs. Stallions who are well socialised and well trained are not 'dominant' or 'extreme' - they are just horses with a few 'extras'!  And I saw nothing in Catwalk's behaviour that indicated 'dominance' (btw this is an obsession with Parelli-ites, who seem not to know what social dominance actually is). Want to create fear and panic in a horse? Tie a leg up so he can't escape! When Catwalk reared, he was not being 'dominant' - he was trying to escape the restraint. Using that  - and the fact that Catwalk is a stallion - as an excuse for PP's appalling ineptitude in dealing with Catwalk just won't wash among truly knowledgeable horse people. PP didn't need to assert his 'dominance' (whatever that means) - he just needed to try something different as soon as it became apparent that his tactics weren't working (personally, I'd have gone down the positive reinforcement route from the start - that's how we solve problems like that & it works every time - especially suited to stallions.Why introduce confrontation when you don't need to? ).  But I guess his ego's too big for that...

Incidentally, stallions aren't territorial...they defend their families and their personal space, not a 'territory'. Gain their trust and liking, and they won't feel threatened and won't become defensive and therefore aggressive - which is so often misinterpreted as 'dominance'. (Sigh)


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## drover (14 July 2010)

KS1 explained the parelli professional star ratings in a post, just to add-

parelli now offer a 1 week classroom course to obtain a 1* after which they would teach 50 hours for free, once this is done they can then charge  for 'online' lessons.

they can then go on to do a further one week classroom course to obtain 2* after which they can teach 'online' and riding.

as long as these people are willing to pay £4000-£5000 for the week course I believe qualifications or experience do not matter.

It is just another part of the money making machine that is parelli.


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## Caledonia (14 July 2010)

drover said:



			KS1 explained the parelli professional star ratings in a post, just to add-

parelli now offer a 1 week classroom course to obtain a 1* after which they would teach 50 hours for free, once this is done they can then charge  for 'online' lessons.

they can then go on to do a further one week classroom course to obtain 2* after which they can teach 'online' and riding.

as long as these people are willing to pay £4000-£5000 for the week course I believe qualifications or experience do not matter.

It is just another part of the money making machine that is parelli.
		
Click to expand...

Lordy, sounds like the barefoot training too.......


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## intouch (14 July 2010)

Caledonia said:



			Lordy, sounds like the barefoot training too....... 


Click to expand...

What barefoot training is that?


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## Caledonia (14 July 2010)

intouch said:



			What barefoot training is that?
		
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Oooh, that's a whole new thread!  

I'll leave you to either draw or ignore similarities.


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## CracklinRosie (14 July 2010)

Oh my giddy aunt!


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## martlin (14 July 2010)

CracklinRosie said:



			Oh my giddy aunt!
		
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I think that sums up the whole affair beautifully


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## anitacollier (14 July 2010)

Do you ready think it was that bad. We go hunting regular and the whole point of the exercise is to exercise our horses and keep the fox population down. The dogs tear the animal apart. Also ive seen people do some really awful things to horses!! punch, kick and shout. 

Have we any grounds to put down other peoples ways of training horses, when the horse world is just as bad and probably worse!!!


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## pippinpie (14 July 2010)

drover said:



			KS1 explained the parelli professional star ratings in a post, just to add-

parelli now offer a 1 week classroom course to obtain a 1* after which they would teach 50 hours for free, once this is done they can then charge  for 'online' lessons.

they can then go on to do a further one week classroom course to obtain 2* after which they can teach 'online' and riding.

as long as these people are willing to pay £4000-£5000 for the week course I believe qualifications or experience do not matter.

It is just another part of the money making machine that is parelli.
		
Click to expand...

Just to set the record straight, Re: experience =level 3 or 4 plus many weeks of on campus training.
Copied from their official web site:
Prerequisites for gaining a 1* instructors certificate:
1. Be a Savvy Club for a minimum of one year.
2. Minimum of 18 years of age at start of program.
3. On Campus Education Requirement (any one of the following):
a) 4-Week Fast Track on campus training (2010) OR
b) 4-Week Master Class Retro (2008-2009) OR
c) 6 Weeks of retro classes since 1996
4. Level 3 or 4 graduate (officially or self-assessed  document to be supplied).
5. Pass your Professional Aptitude Test which consists of three main parts:
Part 1: 1-Star Instructor Course Aptitude test.
Part 2: 1  3 minutes of you introducing yourself and telling us why you will make a great
Parelli Instructor.
Part 3: 30 Minutes of non-edited Horse-Man-Ship footage showing the following..........


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## SirenaXVI (14 July 2010)

anitacollier said:



			Do you ready think it was that bad. We go hunting regular and the whole point of the exercise is to exercise our horses and keep the fox population down. The dogs tear the animal apart. Also ive seen people do some really awful things to horses!! punch, kick and shout. 

Have we any grounds to put down other peoples ways of training horses, when the horse world is just as bad and probably worse!!!
		
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I agree there is abuse in abundance in the horse world, but I would like to bet that the majority of posters on this thread, and I include the Parelli people here, do NOT abuse their horses.  The day we stop pouncing on someone who does commit abuse is the day we stop being horse lovers and become horse users.  Are you suggesting that we should close our eyes because 'it has nothing to do with me'?

Pat Parelli has set himself up as a master horseman who uses kindness, patience and all things natural - after his performance on Friday people are seeing him as he really is.


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## PapaFrita (14 July 2010)

anitacollier said:



			Do you ready think it was that bad. We go hunting regular and the whole point of the exercise is to exercise our horses and keep the fox population down. The dogs tear the animal apart. Also ive seen people do some really awful things to horses!! punch, kick and shout. 

Have we any grounds to put down other peoples ways of training horses, when the horse world is just as bad and probably worse!!!
		
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That's an absurd argument. It's like saying that because the Nazis commited horrendous genocide, we shouldn't complain about wife/child beaters because it's just not as bad.
When you saw the people do those awful things, did you do something about it? If so what? If not, why not? Personally I'm still reserving judgement on the PP vs Catwalk debacle until I've seen the whole video. What I have seen is not so much 'abuse' (in the traditional sense) as clumsy, rough handling, and from someone who preaches kindness, tolerance and patience AND has the b*ll*cks to proclaim his is the ONLY humane way, that is just not on.
I don't give a monkey's what technique people use to train their horses, as long as it does not cause pain, confusion or fear. In this regard LP and PP have both scored a huge and public FAIL.


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## drover (14 July 2010)

pippinpie said:



			Just to set the record straight, Re: experience =level 3 or 4 plus many weeks of on campus training.
Copied from their official web site:
Prerequisites for gaining a 1* instructors certificate:
1. Be a Savvy Club for a minimum of one year.
2. Minimum of 18 years of age at start of program.
3. On Campus Education Requirement (any one of the following):
a) 4-Week Fast Track on campus training (2010) OR
b) 4-Week Master Class Retro (2008-2009) OR
c) 6 Weeks of retro classes since 1996
4. Level 3 or 4 graduate (officially or self-assessed  document to be supplied).
5. Pass your Professional Aptitude Test which consists of three main parts:
Part 1: 1-Star Instructor Course Aptitude test.
Part 2: 1  3 minutes of you introducing yourself and telling us why you will make a great
Parelli Instructor.
Part 3: 30 Minutes of non-edited Horse-Man-Ship footage showing the following..........
		
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I am told by a parelli instructor of at least 3 cases of instructors now with 1* or 2* instructor titles who met very few of the pre-requisites you state and it was down to the fact they had the money.

parelli are just try to further build an empire based on quantity of instructors rather than quality of instructors, its not about horses, relationships just $$$$$$$$$$$


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## jahseh (14 July 2010)

Interesting whoever posted about the star rating system hasn't got things quite right as so many other things aren't quite right either.
You can't simply pay for and attend a week long course and get a qualification. You have to have demonstarated an ability to take a horse through the training or work a horse in the parelli way through certain manouvers which vary level to level rather as dressage tests do and do it with a level of competence comensurate with the star rating you are trying to obtain otherwise you are not accepted onto the course. You are also interviewed before you are accepted which includes an assessment of your level of experience.
The course does not entitle you to a star rating  as well as being an intense learning experience you are also being assessed through the entire week in numerous categories. You have to obtain a mark of 80% in each and every category to earn your star rating otherwise course or no course you don't get the rating.
To then retain your star rating you also have to do considerable amounts of cpd to ensure you remain up to standard which may or may not depending on how and when you do it vary in expense but definately requires a great deal of time energy and commitment
As such the trainers face a great deal more scrutiny and assessment  and definately have to demonstrate more commitment and knowledge than is asked for in many other qualifications which may be obtained after simply passing an exam which may take only a few hours.
The object is to produce trainers who are identifiable by their rating and to encourage growth and progression of those trainers and to maintain and improve the levels of the knowledge they have and are able to impart.
Most professional organisations require their members to pay on a yearly basis to belong to their organisation and to do a certain amount of cpd as does the BHS this is not exclusive to the parelli organisation, although the parelli cpd requirements are much higher than many other organisations. 
The qualifications are not something you can simply buy or retain without showing ability, knowledge and a commitment to continued learning which are not present for many other qualifications.


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## MadasaFerret (14 July 2010)

DragonSlayer said:



			I can accept you are an atheist, but I hate the term 'Bible Bashers'....I'm a gnostic myself....
		
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 No problem with any religion, but the ones I know who come round telling me that I am wrong do bash that poor, tatty old bible!


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## DragonSlayer (14 July 2010)

MadasaFerret said:



			No problem with any religion, but the ones I know who come round telling me that I am wrong do bash that poor, tatty old bible! 

Click to expand...

I'll let you have that one!


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## Natch (14 July 2010)

PapaFrita said:



			That's an absurd argument. It's like saying that because the Nazis commited horrendous genocide, we shouldn't complain about wife/child beaters because it's just not as bad.
		
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I agree with your sentiments PF, but am totally hysterical - Godwins law in action. 

"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."


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## Battyoldbint (14 July 2010)

shysmum said:



			Bramley was THERE and SPOKE to Whittaker. He is coming out with damage limitation.
		
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ditto


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## DragonSlayer (14 July 2010)

Naturally said:



			I agree with your sentiments PF, but am totally hysterical - Godwins law in action. 

"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."



Click to expand...

I cannot believe I am seeing mentions on Nazis on here..........unbelievable.


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## drover (15 July 2010)

jahseh said:



			Interesting whoever posted about the star rating system hasn't got things quite right as so many other things aren't quite right either.
You can't simply pay for and attend a week long course and get a qualification. You have to have demonstarated an ability to take a horse through the training or work a horse in the parelli way through certain manouvers which vary level to level rather as dressage tests do and do it with a level of competence comensurate with the star rating you are trying to obtain otherwise you are not accepted onto the course. You are also interviewed before you are accepted which includes an assessment of your level of experience.
The course does not entitle you to a star rating  as well as being an intense learning experience you are also being assessed through the entire week in numerous categories. You have to obtain a mark of 80% in each and every category to earn your star rating otherwise course or no course you don't get the rating.
To then retain your star rating you also have to do considerable amounts of cpd to ensure you remain up to standard which may or may not depending on how and when you do it vary in expense but definately requires a great deal of time energy and commitment
As such the trainers face a great deal more scrutiny and assessment  and definately have to demonstrate more commitment and knowledge than is asked for in many other qualifications which may be obtained after simply passing an exam which may take only a few hours.
The object is to produce trainers who are identifiable by their rating and to encourage growth and progression of those trainers and to maintain and improve the levels of the knowledge they have and are able to impart.
Most professional organisations require their members to pay on a yearly basis to belong to their organisation and to do a certain amount of cpd as does the BHS this is not exclusive to the parelli organisation, although the parelli cpd requirements are much higher than many other organisations. 
The qualifications are not something you can simply buy or retain without showing ability, knowledge and a commitment to continued learning which are not present for many other qualifications.
		
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I like the romance your trying to sell there but like I said  there are at least 3 of these instructors that did not even meet the pre-requisites for these one week courses but were accepted based on the money to be made. demonstration of the fact you can move one horse around on the ground and then ride that same horse on a loose rein far from qualifies a person to teach or train.

Your right about the being assessed, they are assessed on  if they can remember PP sayings like 'put the relationship first'  shame PP failed to remember that one himself on friday night with regard to the horse or the audience.


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## foolforahorse (15 July 2010)

johnrobert said:



			I just wish the man and his wife would go back to America and stay there. To be honest the American way of life is far different from our way of life and we treat our animals differant too. My brother from California was very surprised to see 2 riders going pass my house on the road,seems they have Dude Ranches and Trails to ride on and the hay they feed, to me is straw that I'd bed my horses on.
		
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Please don't generalize about the US.  Sorry, but it makes you sound ignorant.  You couldn't be more wrong in your sterotyping.   I grew up in VA, hunting and roading were a normal part of riding.  Believe me, most don't want Parelli here either!  It is more a cult taken on buy naive people who are beginner and novice horse owners.   I watched Linda lunge her horse over a picnic table even as the line was tangled all about his legs.  She kept him going around and around.   They're horses are not especially well cared for and they are all about the marketing machine.  David and Karen O'Connor left them.  And anyone with any common sense does eventually.  I drive past their farm in Ocala and it is just nuts.  I bunch of Parelli disciples, drinking the kool-aid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyF2QqP29DU


So now let's go to the more obvious question:  What is Whittaker thinking???  And how on earth could he allow this treatment of his horse?   He is responsible, ultimately, for the care and treatment of his horse.  

Cheers!


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## perfect11s (15 July 2010)

DragonSlayer said:



			I cannot believe I am seeing mentions on Nazis on here..........unbelievable.
		
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Yes aparently  unbelievable but true... maybe Mell Brooks will make a film about him called 
Springtime for Parelli!!!!!


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## eahotson (15 July 2010)

Foolforahorse you have definately hit the nail on the head about Whitaker.


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## Capriole (15 July 2010)

foolforahorse said:



			.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyF2QqP29DU
!
		
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i just watched that and i have no idea what it was about. What was she trying to achieve? And at the end when she said 'good boy' what did she think she had achieved?

What I saw was a little bully that was smacking a very confused looking horse with a rope, waving her hands in its face and cracking it in the head. 
I could quite happily have given her a smack in the face too, watching that, see how confused SHE would look by that sort of treatment. 
However Im not the violent type, so obviously not cut out for Parelli...


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## Echo Bravo (15 July 2010)

Foolforahorse. Have penpal in Tenessee who changes her horses so often, I've lost count of which one she's writing about. she's into English hunt style? and western, she keep her horse in a large pen? and goes to the Riding clubs in her area where most of the riders keep their horses and ponies in livery. Have been to California a couple of times to see my relations and so yes I have seen the Dude ranches and Trecking centres the hay which looks like straw to me was I'm told alfala. And yes in someways their way of living is far differant than ours. All I wish for that the parellie couple would go back to America and stay there and leave us to enjoy our horses in our quiet way. Seems lately everything American good and everything English bad and I'm getting fedup with it.


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## PapaFrita (15 July 2010)

Naturally said:



			I agree with your sentiments PF, but am totally hysterical - Godwins law in action. 

"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."



Click to expand...

It's a dirty job, but someone's got to do it 
Actually, my first choice was Pol Pot and then I thought the reference might be too obscure...


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## PapaFrita (15 July 2010)

DragonSlayer said:



			I cannot believe I am seeing mentions on Nazis on here..........unbelievable.
		
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Really? Why? Religion has been done. As Naturally says; it was only a matter of time before genocide came into the equation (BTW, that was a JOKE)


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## PapaFrita (15 July 2010)

perfect11s said:



			Yes aparently  unbelievable but true... maybe Mell Brooks will make a film about him called 
Springtime for Parelli!!!!!

Click to expand...

Except the Hitler comparison was not with Parelli, was it? How about Monty Python doing 'The Life Of Pat'?


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## HumBugsey (15 July 2010)

I must admit I did chuckle at Godwins Law up there!


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## Munchkin (15 July 2010)

He is NOT the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy!

Fits perfectly, no?


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## cksquishy (15 July 2010)

There is no such thing as a quick fix for a head shy horse, time, patience and a lot of tlc will always work in the long term. I have a TB gelding that came to me so head shy that even trying to touch his muzzle resulted in a front leg firing out and hitting me on the leg. Now after lots of gentle treatment anybody can twiddle his ears and he likes nothing better than a good scratch all over his face. Parelli is a bit to gimicky for my liking!!!!!!!!


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## Amymay (15 July 2010)

chrisnapthineEDT said:



			I spoke to louise and robert and made them fully aware of what was happening,and they where not aware at all,so asked me to post the following....

We are truely shocked at what has happened and knew nothing of the treatment as robert dropped catwalk off and did not stay to see the demonstration,if he had then please rest assured that it would of been stopped,we in no way condone any treatment that in any way causes distress or pain to any horse! Catwalk did recive a small cut,abraision but rest assured that he is reciving any veterinary treatment to correct this.he was ridden out this morning though with no signs of discomfort.and he will be monitored on the progress,we are just as sorry as anyone else that he was treated in this way and rest assured we will be looking into this.....
		
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Me thinketh that he doth protest too much..........


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## M_G (15 July 2010)

anitacollier said:



			Do you ready think it was that bad. We go hunting regular and the whole point of the exercise is to exercise our horses and keep the fox population down. The dogs tear the animal apart.
		
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I really hope they dont as that would be far from hunting within the law and should anyone know who you hunt with you really could get the staff into all sorts of bother


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## Sarah1 (15 July 2010)

munchkin said:



			he is not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy!

Fits perfectly, no?
		
Click to expand...

PMSL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## perfect11s (15 July 2010)

johnrobert said:



			Foolforahorse. Have penpal in Tenessee who changes her horses so often, I've lost count of which one she's writing about. she's into English hunt style? and western, she keep her horse in a large pen? and goes to the Riding clubs in her area where most of the riders keep their horses and ponies in livery. Have been to California a couple of times to see my relations and so yes I have seen the Dude ranches and Trecking centres the hay which looks like straw to me was I'm told alfala. And yes in someways their way of living is far differant than ours. All I wish for that the parellie couple would go back to America and stay there and leave us to enjoy our horses in our quiet way. Seems lately everything American good and everything English bad and I'm getting fedup with it.
		
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 i think you miss the point ...most Americans dont have much time for parelli because they have brilliant clinicians and first class trainers in all disaplines so they dont need pareli' s *******ised form of NH   why do you think he and monty are always
over here!!   if you go to california be sure to go to a AQHA  or dressage show, jumping or eventing  you could also   go to visit some of the trainers or breeders..   just like here some fantastic horsemen,woman.....and some not so good people who shoulden't have horses...


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## vandypip (15 July 2010)

5 years ago I imported a horse from canada that turned out to be head shy. This particular horse has a deep scar on the front of her near fore cannon bone and a large chunk of flesh missing from her top lip. This I suspect being caused from forceful handling ie., tying to a snubbing post and sacked out. Investigation confirmed my suspiscions that this horse was roughly started and handled. 5 years on from purchase this horse is still head shy when bridling, indicated by showing the whites of her eyes, and running away when presented with the bridle. I have never hit her, held her down or forced the bridle on her. I succeed with patience and her trust that I will not hurt her every time I tack up, and yes, she trusts me immensley. This is a man made problem that will never ever go away no matter what was tried to eradicate her complete aversion. 2 months ago my daughter put this horse in a stable, leaving her head collar on. The horse, rubbing its head got its head collar stuck on the door and in complete blind panic took the whole door off its hinges and shot off round the yard dragging the door behind it. Lessons learned. Never presume the horse will forget a bad and painful experience, it won't. This horse is loved and adored and is confident that it will never be forcibly abused again whilst in our care. If I attempted to use methods such as used on catwalk on my horse I would have a very dangerous horse on my hands. Guaranteed. Parelli's demonstration looked rough and amateurish, I am not suggesting his methods are total **** but he is not infallable as he has clearly demonstrated, I don't believe he has done the horse or himself any favours here at all.


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## teddyt (15 July 2010)

jaypeebee said:



			Are there are more videos (apart from all of the ones shown on this thread) showing more intense interaction between Pat Parelli and the horse?  I cant see anything on any of those videos that horrifies me like it seems to have horrified the majority of the posters on this thread.  Its all a bit melodramatic to me.
		
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Its horrifying because the Parellis go on and on about being natural and seeing the world from the horses point of view. e.g. from their website-





			One of the magical results of the Parelli method is that your horse becomes willing to do what you ask, and your horse *problems are solved naturally *and *without force *or punishment. *You and your horse learn to work together* in alignment with the horse's nature, which is why we call our approach Natural HorseManShip.
		
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What exactly is natural and unforced about what he did at a PUBLIC DEMONSTRATION!? What does he do at home if thats what he teaches in public!? Where was the evidence of Pat learning to work with that horse? He was trying to bully it, not work with it.

Hypocrisy at its best (or worse).


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## vandypip (15 July 2010)

Any way. The big question is why pay thousands to be taught to use abusive, restraining methods in handling of horses???? as knowledgable horse owners we all know we can twitch, beat and tie legs up if we wish!! why bloody well pay for it?????


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## DragonSlayer (15 July 2010)

PapaFrita said:



			Really? Why? Religion has been done. As Naturally says; it was only a matter of time before genocide came into the equation (BTW, that was a JOKE)
		
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I agree entirely, it was only a matter of time...just can't believe that it would be brought up...makes you wonder about how some people's minds' work....


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## Shysmum (15 July 2010)

Wouldn't it be a result if Parelli was no longer allowed to sell his dubious DVD's in the UK ? Or anything else for that matter.


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## vandypip (15 July 2010)

All old horsemen know all the old tricks, whether it be derived from english or western horsemanship methods. The methods parrelli  used on catwalk are not exactly new or indeed intelligent. Perhaps parrelli could show us how skilled he is by jumping on catwalk and popping him round a course ofjumps. Now that would be interesting to see!!!!!


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## Katikins (15 July 2010)

tiggs said:



			US newspaper article
http://www.examiner.com/x-7431-Anim...m7d14-2010-Festival-of-the-Horse-Parelli-demo

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And a small quote from one of the pro-PNH group:

"I learned so much from this session. Pat showed true mastery, taking Catwalk 'to the limit, but not over the limit' and I saw a new level of meaning in 'passive persistence'. The best display I have ever seen of why being a horseman requires 'love, language and leadership' - not 'love, love and love' or even 'love, language and more love'. Educational, inspiring and truly magnificent session."

I truly think that there is actually no reasoning with these people whatsoever!!  How blinkered can you be!?!!


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## vandypip (15 July 2010)

Come to think of it, as parrelli endorses bridleless riding at his highest level, why is he dragging his heels in the gutter? get Robert on the horse jumping without a bridle!!! problem solved!!!!


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## LucyPriory (15 July 2010)

DragonSlayer said:



			I agree entirely, it was only a matter of time...just can't believe that it would be brought up...makes you wonder about how some people's minds' work....
		
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I don't doubt that people find discussion of and reference to either genocide or Nazi's distasteful.  These things are particular human behaviours taken to extreme.

But all the behaviours which lead to genocide and the Nazi movement have been involved in the Parelli/Catwalk scenario, just at a lower level.  Just to go through a few:

Blind acceptance of 'authority'
Witch hunt behaviours
Bullying/oppression of those less able than others to defend themselves
Self justification

I am sure a trained behaviourist or similar could be much more articulate on this matter, but I for one don't make a huge distinction between acceptance of someone who chooses to bully/oppress horses or someone who chooses to bully/oppress people.  The former have just chosen an easier target.


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## Crackerz (15 July 2010)

Well the news section seems to point out that this post seems to have made this weeks mag...


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## Shysmum (15 July 2010)

It would be interesting to know how many peeps have joined the forum to follow this story too.


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## siennamum (15 July 2010)

"Pat's challenging horse this evening is Catwalk, a stallion with a bridling issue - he has been owned by international SJ Robert Whittaker for only 8 weeks and the only way they have managed to bridle this horse has been through building the bridle on the horse's head whilst using force to hold the head as still as possible....."

This is the Parelli quote regarding the killer horse. What is so terrible about spending some time slowly constructing the bridle till the horse is more accepting. Why was there the requirement for the horse to be treated as he was by PP, when all he does apparently is throw his head around requiring you to bridle him slowly.

Hardly a major issue surely - more of an inconvenience. What was the major problem this horse had and how was he dangerous......


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## Faithkat (15 July 2010)

vandypip said:



			Come to think of it, as parrelli endorses bridleless riding at his highest level, why is he dragging his heels in the gutter? get Robert on the horse jumping without a bridle!!! problem solved!!!!
		
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Perhaps young Robert should have a quick word with his Dad - I saw John jump a 4ft course without a bridle at one of his demos years ago  . . . . .


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## vandypip (15 July 2010)

There you go!!! how is  parrelli getting away with endorsing his methods as intelligent and unique horsemanship?? our very own brilliant John Whitaker was doing it when parrelli was riding asses!!!


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## hellybelly6 (15 July 2010)

I am sickened by the whole thing, by parelli, by the whittakers, by the even organisers for not intervening.

The sad thing is, that it is always the animal, in this case the horse who comes off worse and suffers for this stunt.  Whatever the fallout from this dispicable spectacle, it is not possible to undo the stress and upset that Catwalk suffered.


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## Jennyharvey (15 July 2010)

There is nothing in H&H about it.  Just says that its at the top of the top 5 things on the forum.  I wonder if there will be anything in next week about it.


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## vandypip (15 July 2010)

Anyway. What exactly is Roberts view on all of this? Perhaps if he'd post his view on this site, considering this is his horse, we can close this discussion and move on to higher things.


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## Shysmum (15 July 2010)

TBH, I think with the investigations going on (which may  well lead to a prosecution), it is difficult to report too much at this early stage. God knows, it would be awful if there was a legal case to answer, but the press had made it impossible for a "fair trial" to be heard. 

I think we have to sit tight and see what the investigations bring up now. No reason why peeps can't still complain to the welfare charities to ensure something gets done. 

sm x


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## vandypip (15 July 2010)

If Robert does indeed endorse parrelli's treatment of catwalk, why on earth doesn't he get him to sort out USA Today's bloody bucking too!!!


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## Doormouse (15 July 2010)

The saddest part of this is that novice people just coming into horses will believe that it is right to use force to gain a horses trust!  Then the market will be even more flooded with horses that are called dangerous (when they are aren't) and horses that are terrified to let anyone near them.  Very few horses are really 'bad' nearly all their problems are man made and reading about this so called demo, you can see why!


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## vandypip (15 July 2010)

Is there an investigation going on? by whom? excuse me but who are the "peeps"???


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## eahotson (15 July 2010)

Its been stated that Robert wanted to try Parelli because a friend practises it but didn't stay for the demo????? It seems to me that Robert wanted a quick cheap fix and didn't care HOW it was achieved.It sounds like there might be a bit of pressure behind the scenes now and the words rat jumping and ship spring to mind.


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## vandypip (15 July 2010)

There seems to be a lot of presuming going on. I'd be interested to hear what is being done if it actually and factually is.


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## itsme123 (15 July 2010)

I wasn't there. So I can't comment. And the youtube vids don't show much. 

But I've seen proper NH being practiced. It's not something you can learn via dvd, and it's nothing like Prat and Linda practice. It's a whole other thing. 

The explain briefly, I've seen a few people do it with success, but the best is a young lady who lives a few miles from here. Raised around horses with an international rider for a father... she's very quiet about her natural abilities and from what I've seen is happiest alone with a horse. That's when she gets a tune. 

We (work) had a gelding in which had kicked the YO, bucked off grooms, and we were at a loss with it. It would just 'turn'. Medically, physically, it was fine. No-one could hack it out and stay ON it, it had a total attitude problem. 

It was sent to **** (lady) to be worked at her father's yard. We were invited back some time later to watch progress. 
We were led down to the stables, where the horse was caught and popped into a haltar and led into the small indoor school. There, the leadrope was unclipped and the horse stood watching ****, ears pricked. 
She raised her arm and whistled, and the horse turned and trotted round clockwise. She raised her other arm (she had no whip, and the rope was by her feet) and the horse turned and trotted the other way. All communication was done with body language and various whistles and clicks of the tongue. She had that horse loose jumping, cantering circles, turning on a sixpence, jumping when she asked it to, and cantering ROUND the jump when she asked it too. The communication between her and horse was awesome. 
It was taken up to the yard, and after brief discussion with her father, and ten minutes worth of 'relaxation' massage it was tacked up and handed over to one of the lads. 
It then went xc.... light in the mouth, no malice shown. 

You know what? This lady (she was just 25 at the time) never claimed to be able to cure any horse. She worked with vets, physios, and other experts, and would be honest about the animal. If she thought it was a lost cause she'd say. She used both natural learnt methods (she just has a 'knack!') along with more traditional methods. Horses are exercised every morning at x o clock, as a group, and have a strong routine, along with good turnout, and are always treated with respect and a calm rational manner. 

I would trust her with any of my horses. She now works in their local PC, and I envy those PC children having such a lady at their disposal. They will learn alot. 

Parelli is just, in my opinion, a con.


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## eahotson (15 July 2010)

I understand there is an investigation going on by the BHS.


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## Shysmum (15 July 2010)

vandypip - there have been a flood of complaints to all the welfare charities, who are then obliged to investigate them. 

Peeps is a slang word for people. No disrespect meant


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## Munchkin (15 July 2010)

vandypip said:



			Come to think of it, as parrelli endorses bridleless riding at his highest level, why is he dragging his heels in the gutter? get Robert on the horse jumping without a bridle!!! problem solved!!!!
		
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I cannot believe it took 973 replies before someone came up with that solution - well done vandypip!

Facebook group has over 1,100 members already... apparently we're not alone http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/group.php?gid=136894269668892&ref=ts


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## eahotson (15 July 2010)

Vandypip watch tex roundup on youtube.Its SOOOOOO funny.


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## rushyj (15 July 2010)

I apologise for my lack of homework but I have just seen the Linda video with the blind horse for the first time.  I am absolutely disgusted that they have been allowed to continue in any way in this country if that is what they call training an animal to do anything.  PP and the "followers" should hang their heads in shame frankly and to have the gall to imply we don't understand the methods.  We do it is abuse we don't do that to our horses.


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## Shysmum (15 July 2010)

vandypip, pmsl


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## domane (15 July 2010)

Last Friday wasn't Robert's first foray into Parelli.....

http://www.yourhorse.co.uk/Your-Hor.../april-14-robert-whitaker-gives-parelli-a-go/


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## pippinpie (15 July 2010)

vandypip said:



			All old horsemen know all the old tricks, whether it be derived from english or western horsemanship methods. The methods parrelli  used on catwalk are not exactly new or indeed intelligent. Perhaps parrelli could show us how skilled he is by jumping on catwalk and popping him round a course ofjumps. Now that would be interesting to see!!!!!
		
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Excellent idea  but he'd have to get the bridle on first


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## teddyt (15 July 2010)

cantieflower said:



			The saddest part of this is that novice people just coming into horses will believe that it is right to use force to gain a horses trust!  Then the market will be even more flooded with horses that are called dangerous (when they are aren't) and horses that are terrified to let anyone near them.  Very few horses are really 'bad' nearly all their problems are man made and reading about this so called demo, you can see why!
		
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Very good points


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## vandypip (15 July 2010)

OMG!!! eahotson!!! is that pat, Linda or Robert dressed up!!! that horse sure does look like catwalk!!!


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## rushyj (15 July 2010)

What is happening with all the event holding demos from now on are thay still going ahead?


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## rushyj (15 July 2010)

God sorry for exceptionally bad spelling in last post....


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## SophieRIDSH (15 July 2010)

johnrobert said:



			Foolforahorse. Have penpal in Tenessee who changes her horses so often, I've lost count of which one she's writing about. she's into English hunt style? and western, she keep her horse in a large pen? and goes to the Riding clubs in her area where most of the riders keep their horses and ponies in livery. Have been to California a couple of times to see my relations and so yes I have seen the Dude ranches and Trecking centres the hay which looks like straw to me was I'm told alfala. And yes in someways their way of living is far differant than ours. All I wish for that the parellie couple would go back to America and stay there and leave us to enjoy our horses in our quiet way. Seems lately everything American good and everything English bad and I'm getting fedup with it.
		
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An American visitor here thinking you are like the blind person trying to describe an elephant
Maybe you need to broaden your circle of acquaintences (but I'm not volunteering)
http://picasaweb.google.com/carolp3231/20100713#
http://picasaweb.google.com/carolp3231/20100702#
http://picasaweb.google.com/carolp3231/20100516#
http://picasaweb.google.com/carolp3231/Fillies#
http://picasaweb.google.com/carolp3231/Decsnow#5472752625330576194
http://picasaweb.google.com/carolp3231/FrontOfHouse1#
http://picasaweb.google.com/carolp3231/Sophie#

And if you think I am in any way bashing English horses, the sires of MOST of the horses shown are imported from either England or Ireland. (Touch of the Blues, Snowford Bellman, Glenlara, and Gunsmoke)


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## nativetyponies (15 July 2010)

vandypip said:



			No bridle needed. No stress to the horse. Jockey might S**T himself at 1.60 m though.
		
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He could get Vanish to sponser his choice of Jods?


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## horses13 (15 July 2010)

nativeponies said:



			He could get Vanish to sponser his choice of Jods?
		
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That has cheered my day


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## vandypip (15 July 2010)

Could be dodgy though with pat jumping in chaps


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## foolforahorse (15 July 2010)

johnrobert said:



			Foolforahorse. Have penpal in Tenessee who changes her horses so often, I've lost count of which one she's writing about. she's into English hunt style? and western, she keep her horse in a large pen? and goes to the Riding clubs in her area where most of the riders keep their horses and ponies in livery. Have been to California a couple of times to see my relations and so yes I have seen the Dude ranches and Trecking centres the hay which looks like straw to me was I'm told alfala. And yes in someways their way of living is far differant than ours. All I wish for that the parellie couple would go back to America and stay there and leave us to enjoy our horses in our quiet way. Seems lately everything American good and everything English bad and I'm getting fedup with it.
		
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You have been to one state of 50.  The USA is an incredibly large and diverse country.  It is really impossible to make generalizations as you do.  There is top notch horses care and not so good horse care.  
  Alfalfa hay is excellent hay.  Just because something is different, doesn't make it bad.  Good quality alfalfa is very green and horses love it.    Alfalfa is a legume, high in protein and is the hay fed to most of the race horses in this country.   Alfalfa is high in calcium making it an excellent hay for horses prone to ulcers.  
 I have not bashed anything English - nor am I saying America is perfect - but please be careful when you paint with such a broad brush.  Horse care in CA alone varies so much from desert to sea and snow capped mountains, it is a HUGE state.  

Parelli is not endorsed by the very large majority of real horsemen in the US.  And that is really the point I wanted to make when I posted.   He seems to have a following of novice and new horse owners.  People who don't know any better and those who are afraid of their horse.  So they torture the horse on the ground and have an excuse for why they are not riding.  Real horsemen in this country have limitless opportunities to progress with legitimate trainers/clinicians.  

FYI: I have been to 48 states, and all over a large portion of Europe, Africa and the Caribbean.   I have seen a huge variations in horse care everywhere.


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## pippinpie (15 July 2010)

vandypip said:



			No bridle needed. No stress to the horse. Jockey might S**T himself at 1.60 m though.
		
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Just a fact you may have overlooked  Pat Parelli was a rodeo rider for many years riding both horses and bulls, I don't think there would be a lot of fear involved in that.
Maybe he would rather that one left in the closet, but don't we all have a few skeletons in ours?


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## vandypip (15 July 2010)

DO YOU?? Lighten up!!!!


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## vandypip (15 July 2010)

Actually Pippinpie, just about every body knows parrelli is an ex rodeo rider.


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## Laura1812 (15 July 2010)

The only way to ever use a carrot stick...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnnQt2mjPiQ


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## Rhandir (15 July 2010)

Have just fallen off my chair laughing.


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## Cavblacks (15 July 2010)

Laura1812 said:



			The only way to ever use a carrot stick...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnnQt2mjPiQ

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Possibly the funniest thing I have ever seen!


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## Angua2 (15 July 2010)

Laura1812 said:



			The only way to ever use a carrot stick...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnnQt2mjPiQ

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Brilliant totally and utterly brilliant...... loving the end credits too.


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## PapaFrita (15 July 2010)

Munchkin said:



			He is NOT the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy!

Fits perfectly, no?
		
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Utterly!!


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## Theresa_F (15 July 2010)

If I tried that sort of training with a carrot stick, all I would get in a very happy munching Clydesdale - that has made my day.


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## PapaFrita (15 July 2010)

DragonSlayer said:



			I agree entirely, it was only a matter of time...just can't believe that it would be brought up...makes you wonder about how some people's minds' work....
		
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I'm baffled by your statement... You agree it would come up but you can't believe it did...? You wonder how whose mind works?
On second thoughts, never mind.


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## Shysmum (15 July 2010)

got a reply from the World Horse Welfare...they don't feel they can do anything. Has anyone else had a reply like this ?  sm x


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## SirenaXVI (15 July 2010)

shysmum said:



			got a reply from the World Horse Welfare...they don't feel they can do anything. Has anyone else had a reply like this ?  sm x
		
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## Shysmum (15 July 2010)

just wondered what responses people have had from the other welfare organisations, or is it too early to say ?  I really hope the BHS/RSPCA are able to act.  WHW say they weren't there, and the video is of too bad a quality, and a BHS vet is alleged to have seen the horse, so the BHS have more evidence , which I guess is fair enough  sm x


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## Bay_Beasty (15 July 2010)

laura1812 said:



			the only way to ever use a carrot stick...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnnqt2mjpiq

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like like like like like


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## martlin (15 July 2010)

shysmum said:



			got a reply from the World Horse Welfare...they don't feel they can do anything. Has anyone else had a reply like this ?  sm x
		
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For some reason, it doesn't surprise me I would imagine that it's going to be pretty difficult to investigate and even trickier to substantiate any allegations


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## mtj (15 July 2010)

I'll end up with carpal tunnel and bad eye sight if i try to read all this thread.

So can someone please point me towards the youtube link. 

Thanks


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## YorksG (15 July 2010)

Perhaps they could attend the nest 'clinic' that PP and his wife charge people to see. That way they will have first hand evidence of their behaviour.


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## Shysmum (15 July 2010)

Ah, but there are first hand witnesses who have complained directly, a better video must be kicking around, a vet examined the horse and found an injury - I'm sure that something will come of this from either/both the RSPCA and BHS.  Fingers crossed. sm x


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## martlin (15 July 2010)

Perhaps, but that still won't help them investigate the 'catwalk incident'...
Apart from being displeased and outraged, I'm not sure what we can do tbh... maybe not go to their demos and hit their revenue, but then again, I wouldn't go to their demo anyway and their faithful followers don't see anything wrong with PP's conduct


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## martlin (15 July 2010)

shysmum said:



			Ah, but there are first hand witnesses who have complained directly, a better video must be kicking around, a vet examined the horse and found an injury - I'm sure that something will come of this from either/both the RSPCA and BHS.  Fingers crossed. sm x
		
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Let's hope so...
I'm fairly disappointed with RW's conduct TBH Gutless


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## Spudlet (15 July 2010)

shysmum said:



			Ah, but there are first hand witnesses who have complained directly, a better video must be kicking around, a vet examined the horse and found an injury - I'm sure that something will come of this from either/both the RSPCA and BHS.  Fingers crossed. sm x
		
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But equally, there are lots of people going on about how great it was, and the video is, I'm afraid to say, awful quality - it's in no way good enough to say what happened with any accuracy. So unless someone was there, it's not possible to be sure what went on unfortunately as there is no one clear account and no decent quality video. All the welfare organisations are charities, they all have limited resources, and they have to be hard-headed about focussing their efforts on where they can make the biggest difference. That's just the way it is, I'm sorry to say

Hopefully all this furore will make people view the Parelli trend with more open and critical eyes in future. If that happens, some good may have come of this.


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## Shysmum (15 July 2010)

witnesses who were there have complained. If they make statements, if the vet makes a statement, you have the basis of a prosecution. The quality of the video is terrible, but it can be enhanced. This is what welfare charities (certainly the RSPCA) are set up to do, and don't worry about money - they have plenty !! Don't give up just yet. sm x


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## vandypip (15 July 2010)

Its obvious that parrelli just acted on ill judgement considering his following and influence on certain people. Hopefully he'll be gracious enough to apologise for any upset caused and at the very least give an explanation that is plausible for his actions on catwalk. Also it would be good for public support and education if Robert Whitaker could confirm catwalks welfare considering people have been so concerned for his horse. A lesson here is take what you need from this and not what your told, use your judgement in an ethical way.


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## Katie (15 July 2010)

OMG poor horse  wouldn't that just put him off more?  i used to think parelli was quite good after watching a short dvd about it but found it a bit strange that they used long lunge-whip like sticks to guide the horse - i thought natural horsmanship was about NOT using things like whips?  after reading bad things about it however i have changed my mind that it seems mostly really awful, especially being that awful to a horse infront of an audience.


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## Echo Bravo (15 July 2010)

Could somebody put this post to bed now.


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## martlin (15 July 2010)

Echo Bravo said:



			Could somebody put this post to bed now.
		
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But why? I think to the contrary, we should keep it going...


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## PPF&Proud (15 July 2010)

Ha Ha ha - RSPCA etc can barely manage to get a conviction on the Spindles Farm guy!!!!! Like to see them try for this one!!!!! 

There are so many lies being bandied around now as truth, it's a wonder there's no lawsuit for libel.

The vet did NOT find any trauma.  Robert WAS there the whole time.  Horse was NEVER supposed to be there on Saturday.  The rope was NOT tied to his forelock.

This is just a Jump on the Bandwagon forum.  Are you all Daily Mail readers??  If you seriously think this is abuse, hope you are all vegetarians!  Not so keen on the RSPCA when they supported the ban on hunting, were you?

Don't think the rules allow for bridle-less jumping, do they?

I know two experienced "non-Parelli" people who were at the demo - said they witnesses superb horsemanship and promptly bought all the kit so they can start learning.  So not everyone thinks that way, and they were actually there.  First time they had seen Pat.


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## PapaFrita (15 July 2010)

Echo Bravo said:



			Could somebody put this post to bed now.
		
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Why? Has the matter been resolved to your satisfaction?


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## Echo Bravo (15 July 2010)

No, but now it seems just mud slinging. If there is a case of abuse and from what alot of people on here are saying there is. Put it writing and send to the BHS as they asked him I think but not sure to do the Demo also RSPCA and most of all WHW and also the photo's and just discourage others from going to see his demo's like everyone did with LUSH.


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## LucyPriory (15 July 2010)

PPF&Proud said:



			The vet did NOT find any trauma.
		
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I have an email from the BHS (copied and posted earlier in this thread).  As a result of the vet examination Catwalk was not permitted to take part in any further demos.

Why would that be then? - Did the vet have a whimsy, were they blind, deluded or did they just 'not understand' like the rest of us who believe what took place was abuse?


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## ponydentist (15 July 2010)

I have spoken to the RSPCA and prepared to give a statement to the effect that NO ABUSE OR CRUELTY happeneed that night. I ave also contacted the head of welfare at the BHS and given a side of the story to the same effect.

The techniques, methodology and rationalle used with that particular horse have been used....researched.... and proven to work in certain cases. Do you really honestly think in your wildest dreams that a man of this statuer in the horse world would commit suicide in sucha manner in front of hundreds of people. Get wise people. This is a WITHCHUNT by people who's knowledge of horsemanship and training techniques extend only to the tiny little worlds they live in. Some people's experience of horses and horsemanship extend only to their own experiences of owning maybe a few horses and those of their friends. 

Study the work of Dr Robert Miller on the methodology of knee hobbles and their use ....stop failing to see beyond what you physically saw.......and Im speaking here about those of you who did actually see....the rest of you who didnt......you cannot possible make accusations of this nature. Get a life. I have seen more horsemanship than most and understand that everything he did that night was done for a reason .....one reason.....to help the horse. Those people who know me on here or from anywhere else will know that if there had been any form of abuse I would have been the FIRST person to jump out of my seat. shout stop...jump into that arena and rope Pat Parelli (and I can use one as good as him) and hang him by his balls from the rafters. Ive done it before and would again no matter who or how famous the person may be. Those people who know or have had me help with their horses would also know that I would never condone any form of abuse or cruelty to any animal......ever. Some of you have never seen such methods employed and do not understand what you saw. 

Get real people. And get educated.  This is Anthropermorphism ( the biggest problem between people and animals)at its highest level.

I have nothing to do with Parelli in anyway shape or form. I loathe his marketing techniques and business ethics......but when you fling accusations of cruelty and horse abuse at man who loves horses and has as much experience at dealing with horses like this one i hope the hell he sue's the arse of you all who have accused him in writing.....but I know he wont....but he should.


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## PapaFrita (15 July 2010)

Echo Bravo said:



			No, but now it seems just mud slinging. If there is a case of abuse and from what alot of people on here are saying there is. Put it writing and send to the BHS as they asked him I think but not sure to do the Demo also RSPCA and most of all WHW and also the photo's and just discourage others from going to see his demo's like everyone did with LUSH.
		
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I'm not mudslinging. There has been a certain amount of low-grade hysteria on this thread regarding the Catwalk incident and vids, but I think it's a matter that should be continue to be discussed and questioned so that incidents like LP and the one-eyed horse can't happen again.


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## Echo Bravo (15 July 2010)

Sorry I didn't mean at Parellie just at other posters. He needs as much mud slung at him as possible as I gather it's not about really improving the horse's life or riders just making him a lot of money. Just saw one small demo tape many years ago and wasn't impressed then and have never bothered to look since till this post.


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## martlin (15 July 2010)

ponydentist said:



			This is a WITHCHUNT by people who's knowledge of horsemanship and training techniques extend only to the tiny little worlds they live in. Some people's experience of horses and horsemanship extend only to their own experiences of owning maybe a few horses and those of their friends. 

Get real people. And get educated.  This is Anthropermorphism ( the biggest problem between people and animals)at its highest level.
		
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I actually find your post offensive, belittling and extremely patronising
especially the fragments I quoted.
You don't know me from Adam, how dare you question my experience in such a manner?


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## PPF&Proud (15 July 2010)

I have written and complained to the website editor about the libellous and defamatory statements contained in this thread about identifiable individuals.  Hopefully the whole ridiculous fuss will die down when the next big name gets banned for some misuse of whip or other some such.


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## Shysmum (15 July 2010)

you joined just to say that ?


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## DragonSlayer (15 July 2010)

PPF&Proud said:



			I have written and complained to the website editor about the libellous and defamatory statements contained in this thread about identifiable individuals.  Hopefully the whole ridiculous fuss will die down when the next big name gets banned for some misuse of whip or other some such.
		
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A debate is allowed. That's what this is, pure and simple, if some people want to throw their toys out of the pram...then so be it, it happens in most debates I'm afraid.....


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## ponydentist (15 July 2010)

Ok Martlin.

What are your views on this? were you there/ did you see? What is your understanding of the methodss, techniques and equipment used on that evening? what is your personal experience with horses....how many horses have you had personal and hands on experience with? How many horsemanship clinics have you attended personally....both in the UK and other countries? Who were the trainers invvolved? What is your knowledge of the work of Dr Robert Miller?

Sits back and waits.


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## PPF&Proud (15 July 2010)

Debate is fine.  Libel and lies are not.  Yes, I joined just to add my comments - isn't that allowed - or are only comments that you agree with allowed?

Standing up for someone you believe in isn't throwing toys out of pram.  You felt it necessary to complain to RSPCA, I felt it necessary to complain to the website editor.


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## Onyxia (15 July 2010)

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/view/entry/m_en_gb0002970#m_en_gb0002970
Take a look Ponydentist-abuse is not just starving an animal you know 
People who abuse their spouse tend to tell you it was for the OH's own good too,still,doesn't make it _right_ does it?

The Parelli camp is happy to say the horse had a phobia of being bridled.Do you understand phobias? Do you understand the treatment? 
Forcing a human to "confront their fear" is never a good idea when they KNOW what is happening and have made a CHOICE to do it.
Catwalk had no choice in the matter but was forced by harsh methods into getting something he was frightened of onto his head seemingly picking up an injury along the way.
That _IS_ abuse.


If this sort of treatment is acceptable in other parts of the world it can bloody well stay there thankyou.
Do not for one second think it is OK simply because PP is a "known" person.If the video showed an unknown doing the exact same thing in the arena of their livery yard there would be hell to pay.
PP should not get away with this because of his name and product.


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## SirenaXVI (15 July 2010)

ponydentist said:



			Ok Martlin.

What are your views on this? were you there/ did you see? What is your understanding of the methodss, techniques and equipment used on that evening? what is your personal experience with horses....how many horses have you had personal and hands on experience with? How many horsemanship clinics have you attended personally....both in the UK and other countries? Who were the trainers invvolved? What is your knowledge of the work of Dr Robert Miller?

Sits back and waits.
		
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Can I turn the question on you then please ponydentist?

How many lessons have you had with Olympic Dressage Trainers

How many BD official training sessions have you attended

How many official BD displays have you given

How many times have you trained with Carl Hester

Have you read Xenophon?

It's all relative


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## Golf Girl (15 July 2010)

PPF&Proud said:



			There are so many lies being bandied around now as truth, it's a wonder there's no lawsuit for libel.

The vet did NOT find any trauma.  Robert WAS there the whole time.  Horse was NEVER supposed to be there on Saturday.  The rope was NOT tied to his forelock.

This is just a Jump on the Bandwagon forum.  Are you all Daily Mail readers??  

I know two experienced "non-Parelli" people who were at the demo - said they witnesses superb horsemanship and promptly bought all the kit so they can start learning.  So not everyone thinks that way, and they were actually there.  First time they had seen Pat.
		
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At last, the voice of reason! Well done PPF&Proud for refusing to be intimidated by the lynch-mob mentality that prevails here and telling it like it is.


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## PPF&Proud (15 July 2010)

But PonyDentist isn't commenting on them or their methods.  You are.  If he/she was commenting on eventing, then your questions are reasonable.  As it is, they don't make sense.


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## MotherOfChickens (15 July 2010)

They're he're.





(Poltergeist reference  )


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## SirenaXVI (15 July 2010)

PPF&Proud said:



			But PonyDentist isn't commenting on them or their methods.  You are.  If he/she was commenting on eventing, then your questions are reasonable.  As it is, they don't make sense.
		
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No Ponydentist is questioning Martlin's horse experience and then throws Parelli based questions at her, insinuating that because she does not worship Parelli then she is not worth listening to.

I just asked him dressage based questions to demonstrate a point


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## PapaFrita (15 July 2010)

ponydentist said:



			Ok Martlin.

What are your views on this? were you there/ did you see? What is your understanding of the methodss, techniques and equipment used on that evening? what is your personal experience with horses....how many horses have you had personal and hands on experience with? How many horsemanship clinics have you attended personally....both in the UK and other countries? Who were the trainers invvolved? What is your knowledge of the work of Dr Robert Miller?

Sits back and waits.
		
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She doesn't have to give you an explanation. It's not HER expertise that's being questioned. It wasn't HER videod roping up a horse into submission. It wasn't HER waving a rope in a one-eyed horse's face and clunking it on the face with a clip. It's not her telling everyone who doesn't DO Parelli that they don't love their horses and their horses don't love them. Or that their way is the ONLY way. There are a LOT of people who have reacted with everything from horror, to disgust and fawning admiration for PP's treatment of Catwalk and they are entitled to respond and give an opinion. You just refuse to accept that a LOT of them (I include myself, but sorry, am not about to send you my CV for your approval) know what they're talking about. And the fact is that freedom of speech exists and we're all entitled to use it. No one's stopping you, are they?


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## ponydentist (15 July 2010)

Well said PPF& Proud.

I started this thread nto ask for THOSE WHO WERE AT THE DEMO.....to discuss their thoughts on what went on because i had a feeling that some of them would have only been able to see to the end of their noses.......Yep....appears am right.

Withc hunters......maybe when you catch him u'll dip him in the water and if he drowns he wasnt a witch....and if he survrives he is to be burned at the stake.

Im sick of all the narrow minded snidy little commments being made on here and the uneducated accusations of abuse and cruelty should not and may very well not be tolorated. 

How many of you have ever watched stallions fight when fighting for supremacy?? What do they try to to do to each others legs??/ in particular the foreleg?? What is the thing a horse treasures most (body part) and what part of the body are horse most reluctant to let anyone or anything touch, handle or incapcitate???? Are we getting there yet anyone???? Any lights comming on in empty heads??/


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## martlin (15 July 2010)

ponydentist said:



			Ok Martlin.

What are your views on this? were you there/ did you see? What is your understanding of the methodss, techniques and equipment used on that evening? what is your personal experience with horses....how many horses have you had personal and hands on experience with? How many horsemanship clinics have you attended personally....both in the UK and other countries? Who were the trainers invvolved? What is your knowledge of the work of Dr Robert Miller?

Sits back and waits.
		
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My views on this are that the whole incident was bad taste and unnecessary, one could argue nearly professional suicide. The risk of injury itself should be enough not to go down this route. Even if you consider term 'abuse' relative and subject to opinion.
I wasn't there.
I've seen restricted amount of video evidence and have read eye witness accounts on here.
My understanding of methods and techniques used is adequate.
I'm a professional horseperson, will leave it at that, I don't wish to divulge my identity on this forum.
I have had experience (personal, hands on) with several hundreds of horses.
I have attended a few horsemanship clinics, none in UK.
The 'trainers' involved where qualified equine behaviourists.
I am not familiar with dr Robert Miller.

I've answered your questions, however I don't feel it was necessary in order for me to a) have an opinion and b) feel offended by your post - both previous and this one.


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## PPF&Proud (15 July 2010)

The Parellis don't say that there's is the only way.  They say this is our way.  I've taken a little look around some of the other threads, and am amazed at the contradictions there are.

Take a quick look at the "have you ever had to give up on a horse" thread and read how these experienced horsepeople have given up and sold their difficult horses when they "didn't gell", "weren't fun anymore". "downright dangerous" etc etc etc.

Maybe they should try a little Parelli before giving up so easily.  One of them gives their horse a week.  Wonder how many they got through?


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## TinselRider (15 July 2010)

peteralfred said:



			They're he're.





(Poltergeist reference  )
		
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Blimey only took them a few days.


And just to add this in for the parelli followers that deem the events acceptable...

To quote the Farm Animal Welfare Advisory Council's Animal welfare guidelines for horses ponies and donkeys.

THE FIVE FREEDOMS CONCEPT
3. Freedom from *pain*, *injury* and disease ... There have been quotes from vets stating the horse DID indeed recieve an injury and trust me a gum line / commanche twitch FAR from comfortable in the horses mouth especially when it is being hauled on.

4. Freedom to express normal patterns of behaviour
5. Freedom from fear and distress

I need say no more to those who have common sence and an open mind when watching the videos previously posted.


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## PPF&Proud (15 July 2010)

What's with the poltergeist reference?

More like salem witch-hunt!


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## Abay (15 July 2010)

ponydentist said:



			How many of you have ever watched stallions fight when fighting for supremacy?? What do they try to to do to each others legs??/ in particular the foreleg?? What is the thing a horse treasures most (body part) and what part of the body are horse most reluctant to let anyone or anything touch, handle or incapcitate???? Are we getting there yet anyone???? Any lights comming on in empty heads??/
		
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They go for legs yes, but they most certainly do not stuff ropes under each others lips.
On the other hand, at no time in the video clips, did Catwalk behave like a stallion, ready to fight PP for supremacy, so what is your point?
I personally think you need to talk/write to people, with the respect, you recond(sp) PP deserves and not sound so patronising, it is not becoming.

Sorry if none of this made no sense.


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## SirenaXVI (15 July 2010)

PPF&Proud said:



			What's with the poltergeist reference?

More like salem witch-hunt!
		
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Yes and that was smoke and mirrors too - a little like Mr P


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## Golf Girl (15 July 2010)

peteralfred said:



			They're he're.
(Poltergeist reference  )
		
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Us, them, therein lies the REAL root of the problem ......


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## MotherOfChickens (15 July 2010)

PPF&Proud said:



			What's with the poltergeist reference?

More like salem witch-hunt!
		
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not a witch hunt when we know who the guilty party is?!


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## PPF&Proud (15 July 2010)

Salem witch hunt was based on the lies of a couple of silly girls, and grew into murdering innocent people.  Bit more than smoke and mirrors.  The comments on here reminded me of that.


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## PapaFrita (15 July 2010)

PPF&Proud said:



			The Parellis don't say that there's is the only way.  They say this is our way.  I've taken a little look around some of the other threads, and am amazed at the contradictions there are.

Take a quick look at the "have you ever had to give up on a horse" thread and read how these experienced horsepeople have given up and sold their difficult horses when they "didn't gell", "weren't fun anymore". "downright dangerous" etc etc etc.

Maybe they should try a little Parelli before giving up so easily.  One of them gives their horse a week.  Wonder how many they got through?
		
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Ok, a genuine question. Actually questions.
Do you think that Catwalk's briding issues could've been handled differently? Over more time, for instance, gradually introducing him to the bridle. Or do you think that Pat handled the situation the best way possible?
If you think that Catwalk's issues could've been dealt with differently, over weeks rather than hours or days, don't you think that THAT's the example he should have set? 
BTW, I've sold horses that turned out just not to be what I was looking for. They went to very good homes. What's the crime in that?


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## Sparkles (15 July 2010)

Human's will never be seen as a horse, irregardless of how hard we try to 'mimic' their ways. We are humans in flesh blood look and scent, same as they are horses in flesh blood look and scent.

Metal clips to mimic 'biting', gum lines to mimic endorphin release from an attack, leg pulling to mimic how they fight.....load of nonsense to me. Lights are on and working, but no way has it ever inspired me to work horses this way as an amiable means of training. Personally. I've dabbled at Parelli a few years back and had practitioners at college who came every week, however, tried and tested and did not agree with it nor was it of any interest to me to put into training methods, personally.

Edited - Doesn't make me judge others who do practice forms of PH. Horses for courses. If it works for you and lets you enjoy your horse, then good! What horses are meant to be for at the end of the day, a thing of leisure, passion and hobby.


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## ponydentist (15 July 2010)

How many of you have ever watched Ceaser Millan.....the dog whisperer??/


Who has ever seen him take a dog which will not back down and put it on its back in a submissive posture and place his fingers into its throat and hold it there for a time??? CRuel man......hes Abusing that dog.......report him ..

Who says that Catwalks leg was hobbled above the knee as a restraint??? restraint for what?? at NO TIME during the short moments that the leg was temporarily incapacitated in this manner was any attempt made to put a bridle or anything else on the horse. the trainer stood back from the horse....gave him time to adjust to the situation which he did without ANY stress, fear or anxiety (he lowered the held up leg to the floor for a split second. In his mind the leg was gone or totally useless and that was it....accepted end of.....when the trainer realised that the horse had acceoted this....hey resto he flipped a rope and the horse had his leg given back to him....can anyone see the pyscology involved??? How was this seen as RESTRAINT....restraing to do WHAT?? it wasnt done in that context.....this was a master horseman using techniques with well grounded and researched methodology to ask a horse to start thinking in its limted capacity to think. Remember horses live totally in the here and now....they have no forward thought...but do have excellent long and short term memory processing ability.They have to learn much quicker than a lot of animals....or die. Any lights comming on yet?? 

Other use of the rope during other parts of the demo were also thought provoking tried and tested and sucessfull methods which cause absolute minimum impact to the horse welfare.


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## galaxy (15 July 2010)

Binky01 said:



			Human's will never be seen as a horse, irregardless of how hard we try to 'mimic' their ways. We are humans in flesh blood look and scent, same as they are horses in flesh blood look and scent.

Metal clips to mimic 'biting', gum lines to mimic endorphin release from an attack, leg pulling to mimic how they fight.....load of nonsense to me. Lights are on and working, but no way has it ever inspired me to work horses this way as an amiable means of training. Personally. I've dabbled at Parelli a few years back and had practitioners at college who came every week, however, tried and tested and did not agree with it nor was it of any interest to me to put into training methods, personally.
		
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A few days ago PD said that the horse had his leg tied up to make him feel that he was going to die....  He said that was the theory behind the techinique.  I honestly cannot see how anyone can feel that that is the right theing to do to ANY horse and that it is not abuse!


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## flash1 (15 July 2010)

ponydentist said:



			How many of you have ever watched Ceaser Millan.....the dog whisperer??/


Who has ever seen him take a dog which will not back down and put it on its back in a submissive posture and place his fingers into its throat and hold it there for a time??? CRuel man......hes Abusing that dog.......report him ..

Who says that Catwalks leg was hobbled above the knee as a restraint??? restraint for what?? at NO TIME during the short moments that the leg was temporarily incapacitated in this manner was any attempt made to put a bridle or anything else on the horse. the trainer stood back from the horse....gave him time to adjust to the situation which he did without ANY stress, fear or anxiety (he lowered the held up leg to the floor for a split second. In his mind the leg was gone or totally useless and that was it....accepted end of.....when the trainer realised that the horse had acceoted this....hey resto he flipped a rope and the horse had his leg given back to him....can anyone see the pyscology involved??? How was this seen as RESTRAINT....restraing to do WHAT?? it wasnt done in that context.....this was a master horseman using techniques with well grounded and researched methodology to ask a horse to start thinking in its limted capacity to think. Remember horses live totally in the here and now....they have no forward thought...but do have excellent long and short term memory processing ability.They have to learn much quicker than a lot of animals....or die. Any lights comming on yet?? 

Other use of the rope during other parts of the demo were also thought provoking tried and tested and sucessfull methods which cause absolute minimum impact to the horse welfare.
		
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Ceaser Milan has been investigated for his handleing techniques and many people dont like the way he handles dogs there are many youtube video clips of him too but thats a whole other story.


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## martlin (15 July 2010)

ponydentist said:



			Well said PPF& Proud.

I started this thread nto ask for THOSE WHO WERE AT THE DEMO.....to discuss their thoughts on what went on because i had a feeling that some of them would have only been able to see to the end of their noses.......Yep....appears am right.

Withc hunters......maybe when you catch him u'll dip him in the water and if he drowns he wasnt a witch....and if he survrives he is to be burned at the stake.

Im sick of all the narrow minded snidy little commments being made on here and the uneducated accusations of abuse and cruelty should not and may very well not be tolorated. 

How many of you have ever watched stallions fight when fighting for supremacy?? What do they try to to do to each others legs??/ in particular the foreleg?? What is the thing a horse treasures most (body part) and what part of the body are horse most reluctant to let anyone or anything touch, handle or incapcitate???? Are we getting there yet anyone???? Any lights comming on in empty heads??/
		
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Unfortunately, or fortunately perhaps, when you start a thread on public forum, you can't choose who is going to respond.
Now you have repeatedly told us we have empty heads, are uneducated, narrow minded, snidey, witch hunters... I wonder what that says about you?


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## Golf Girl (15 July 2010)

galaxy23 said:



			A few days ago PD said that the horse had his leg tied up to make him feel that he was going to die....  He said that was the theory behind the techinique.  I honestly cannot see how anyone can feel that that is the right theing to do to ANY horse and that it is not abuse!
		
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With the greatest respect to all concerned, only Pat Parelli can explain why he did what he did in the Catwalk demo, and until that explanation is forthcoming, any speculation in this respect is, at best, unhelpful.


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## MotherOfChickens (15 July 2010)

don't care for Caesar Milan either. the use of the word dominance and the understanding of what it is and isnt, is about 20 years out fo date with current behavioural and learning theory when used by the likes of Parelli and Milan. While neither are totally without skill, that comes from years of experience-something lacking in the novice types they teach. alpha rolling certain dogs for example, could be very dangerous to the owner if they chose the wrong dog (without actually going downt he road of it being wrong).


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## CorvusCorax (15 July 2010)

While I agree alpha rolling is not for everyone or every dog, thanks for giving me the opportunity to say that I get a bit bored of posters who only come into the dogs section of the forum to slag Cesar Milan off, and despite boasting about how they are great at training all sorts of dogs, never post ANY advice, good or bad, in that section of the forum, when people come on to ask about problems.

You can draw your own parallel(i)s......


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## SirenaXVI (15 July 2010)

PPF&Proud said:



			Salem witch hunt was based on the lies of a couple of silly girls, and grew into murdering innocent people.  Bit more than smoke and mirrors.  The comments on here reminded me of that.
		
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My point was that the girls used lies together with smoke and mirrors to get their own way - a little like Mr P, not that I am for a moment insinuating the murder bit!  In any case the girls did not commit the burnings, they did, however engineer them.


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## Golf Girl (15 July 2010)

peteralfred said:



			the use of the word dominance and the understanding of what it is and isnt, is about 20 years out fo date with current behavioural and learning theory when used by the likes of Parelli and Milan.
		
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PNH is not about dominance, it's about partnership.


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## SophieRIDSH (15 July 2010)

Golf Girl said:



			With the greatest respect to all concerned, only Pat Parelli can explain why he did what he did in the Catwalk demo, and until that explanation is forthcoming, any speculation in this respect is, at best, unhelpful.
		
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Don't hold your breath.


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## SirenaXVI (15 July 2010)

ponydentist said:



			How many of you have ever watched Ceaser Millan.....the dog whisperer??/


Who has ever seen him take a dog which will not back down and put it on its back in a submissive posture and place his fingers into its throat and hold it there for a time??? CRuel man......hes Abusing that dog.......report him ..

Who says that Catwalks leg was hobbled above the knee as a restraint??? restraint for what?? at NO TIME during the short moments that the leg was temporarily incapacitated in this manner was any attempt made to put a bridle or anything else on the horse. the trainer stood back from the horse....gave him time to adjust to the situation which he did without ANY stress, fear or anxiety (he lowered the held up leg to the floor for a split second. In his mind the leg was gone or totally useless and that was it....accepted end of.....when the trainer realised that the horse had acceoted this....hey resto he flipped a rope and the horse had his leg given back to him....can anyone see the pyscology involved??? How was this seen as RESTRAINT....restraing to do WHAT?? it wasnt done in that context.....this was a master horseman using techniques with well grounded and researched methodology to ask a horse to start thinking in its limted capacity to think. Remember horses live totally in the here and now....they have no forward thought...but do have excellent long and short term memory processing ability.They have to learn much quicker than a lot of animals....or die. Any lights comming on yet?? 

Other use of the rope during other parts of the demo were also thought provoking tried and tested and sucessfull methods which cause absolute minimum impact to the horse welfare.
		
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Whoops not a good analogy, his methods have also been called into question


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## SirenaXVI (15 July 2010)

martlin said:



			Unfortunately, or fortunately perhaps, when you start a thread on public forum, you can't choose who is going to respond.
Now you have repeatedly told us we have empty heads, are uneducated, narrow minded, snidey, witch hunters... I wonder what that says about you?
		
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Well I am still awaiting his replies to my questions


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## Abay (15 July 2010)

Golf Girl said:



			PNH is not about dominance, it's about partnership.
		
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Please explain to me, slowly if you prefer, how what PP did on Friday, was not dominating and how it was building a partnership.

Pretend, I have never touch a horse, but really want to join PP, if it is easier like that.


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## PapaFrita (15 July 2010)

Golf Girl said:



			With the greatest respect to all concerned, only Pat Parelli can explain why he did what he did in the Catwalk demo, and until that explanation is forthcoming, any speculation in this respect is, at best, unhelpful.
		
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Weeell, if he's giving a demonstration of his techniques, isn't the point to explain? And if we are all guilty of a 'misunderstanding' why is there no explanation forthcoming? Surely this would be the way of settling everyone's grievances? Does he think he's above explaining as we're all too ignorant to understand? If so, as I asked in a previous post, surely he should be demonstrating the techniques the spectators CAN understand and put into practice themselves without running the risk of hurting themselves or the horse (because you CAN see how this could've happened, can't you?)


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## SirenaXVI (15 July 2010)

Golf Girl said:



			With the greatest respect to all concerned, only Pat Parelli can explain why he did what he did in the Catwalk demo, and until that explanation is forthcoming, any speculation in this respect is, at best, unhelpful.
		
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So you did not understand it either then, but in the spirit of PNH you are just going to accept it was the right thing to do?  Genuine question btw


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## ponydentist (15 July 2010)

Ahh......Hallelujha.

People are starting to think.

Other  use of the rope in that demo included the fixing of a rope atatched to the HALTER...and then to the horses LEG   (remember the importance of legs and feet here when training horses...think "footfall" as considered in classical riding techniques)...at two points at seperate stages...above the knee first....then below the knee. 

Can anyone tell me what the theroy behind the use of a standing martigale and a running martingale......does a running martingale not often involve putting pressure on the horses tongue???....one of the most domineering techniques involved in any form of horsetraining. Are these gadgets not forms of restraint employed to PREVENT a horse from lifting its head above a certain position??? Isnt that "prevention of freedom to display normal behaviour"?? Would not the sme thing but not used on the tongue be preferable??
Anymore lights comming on yet. 
I make no appology for my manner here. I started this thread and asked for sensible discussions.....from open minded people who were there.......not unfounded accusations of abuse and cruelty  from tunnel visioned narrow minded witch hunters.

I didnt ask for your views on Parelli Natural horsemanship. Look at my earlier posts posted last Sunday to see my experience and where im comming from ....Ive been....Ive seen and Ive handeled thousands and thousands of horses.


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## mtj (15 July 2010)

Pops head above parapet.

Ok Ponydentist.   I've seen 2 Monty Roberts demos in the Uk and have been to the Illinois Horsefest where i got to see Linda tellington Jones, Gawani Pony boy and Chris Cox in action.
I have a ticket to see Andrew McLean next month.

Am I entitled to an opinion?  If so, please hear my disgust at the video i have viewed on Youtube.


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## SandiAustin (15 July 2010)

I have not read all of the comments but i get the idea...sigh...i live in England and am American...these things frustrate me to no end. Those of us that are raised with the culture of true horsemanship and not manufactured stuff really get upset with all the hype around marketing. I ASK YOU NOT TO BE DISMAYED BY ALL THE MARKETING THAT IS INVOLVED WITH TRUE HORSEMANSHIP FOR THE SAFETY OF BOTH THE EQUINE AND HUMAN. I am frustrated by the people that have loads of money that come over here and decide they can make a statement...please know that what i myself have been taught by my mentors of many many years ago works and is NOT  american rubbish.


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## MotherOfChickens (15 July 2010)

CaveCanem said:



			While I agree alpha rolling is not for everyone or every dog, thanks for giving me the opportunity to say that I get a bit bored of posters who only come into the dogs section of the forum to slag Cesar Milan off, and despite boasting about how they are great at training all sorts of dogs, never post ANY advice, good or bad, in that section of the forum, when people come on to ask about problems.

You can draw your own parallel(i)s......
		
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have I done that? I may have said I don't agree with his methods (I don't remember) as I can't remember the last time I was in the dog forum!


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## PapaFrita (15 July 2010)

ponydentist said:



			Ahh......Hallelujha.

People are starting to think.

Other  use of the rope in that demo included the fixing of a rope atatched to the HALTER...and then to the horses LEG   (remember the importance of legs and feet here when training horses...think "footfall" as considered in classical riding techniques)...at two points at seperate stages...above the knee first....then below the knee. 

Can anyone tell me what the theroy behind the use of a standing martigale and a running martingale......does a running martingale not often involve putting pressure on the horses tongue???....one of the most domineering techniques involved in any form of horsetraining. Are these gadgets not forms of restraint employed to PREVENT a horse from lifting its head above a certain position??? Isnt that "prevention of freedom to display normal behaviour"?? Would not the sme thing but not used on the tongue be preferable??
Anymore lights comming on yet. 
I make no appology for my manner here. I started this thread and asked for sensible discussions.....from open minded people who were there.......not unfounded accusations of abuse and cruelty  from tunnel visioned narrow minded witch hunters.

I didnt ask for your views on Parelli Natural horsemanship. Look at my earlier posts posted last Sunday to see my experience and where im comming from ....Ive been....Ive seen and Ive handeled thousands and thousands of horses.
		
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Is no one going to anwer my questions? And please don't deflect. The discussion here is not about martingales. Perhaps you could start a different thread about that?


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## CorvusCorax (15 July 2010)

Nope, PA, not you


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## Onyxia (15 July 2010)

SirenaXVI said:



			Well I am still awaiting his replies to my questions

Click to expand...

Makes it all the more perfect


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## DragonSlayer (15 July 2010)

SandiAustin said:



			I have not read all of the comments but i get the idea...sigh...i live in England and am American...these things frustrate me to no end. Those of us that are raised with the culture of true horsemanship and not manufactured stuff really get upset with all the hype around marketing. I ASK YOU NOT TO BE DISMAYED BY ALL THE MARKETING THAT IS INVOLVED WITH TRUE HORSEMANSHIP FOR THE SAFETY OF BOTH THE EQUINE AND HUMAN. I am frustrated by the people that have loads of money that come over here and decide they can make a statement...please know that what i myself have been taught by my mentors of many many years ago works and is NOT  american rubbish.
		
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SandiAustin, thankyou so much for this! I was getting pretty dismayed over feeling that 'American is Better' and basically, it's just all good ole fashioned horse stuff at the end of the day!


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## cptrayes (15 July 2010)

Originally Posted by Golf Girl  View Post
With the greatest respect to all concerned, only Pat Parelli can explain why he did what he did in the Catwalk demo, and until that explanation is forthcoming, any speculation in this respect is, at best, unhelpful.


Sorry, but as an experienced horse handler I think I and the thousands of other people who have calmly and quietly taught very headshy horses to be bridled easily are entitled to criticise this cleary unnecessary and frankly unhorsemanlike behaviour. The man is not a god, he can be criticised and on this performance, he should be.


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## galaxy (15 July 2010)

Originally Posted by Golf Girl  
With the greatest respect to all concerned, only Pat Parelli can explain why he did what he did in the Catwalk demo, and until that explanation is forthcoming, any speculation in this respect is, at best, unhelpful.

No, he hasn't offered an explanation.  Why not?  It's not like he can't know everyone wants one!!  

So while he hasn't offered one, somone who is a supporter and who is apparently well researched in these techniques offered an explanation into why it is done.  Are we not allowed to think he is correct?  If he is incorrect then perhaps Mr P had better offer an explanation!

Ponydentist again has not commented on my question/comment on the technique as much as he's ignored other peoples questions and just continues to try and patronise and belittle us.


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## chestnut cob (15 July 2010)

ponydentist said:



			Im sick of all the narrow minded snidy little commments being made on here and the uneducated accusations of abuse and cruelty should not and may very well not be tolorated.
		
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By which you really mean "I am sick of people not agreeing with me so I am going to throw a tantrum"...

I won't comment on the Parelli demo at Stoneleigh however I did watch a Parelli demo at the British Open this year and can safely it say it was a load of absolute rubbish.  It was supposed to be a loading demo so I was hopeful I would see them working with bad loaders but no, what I saw was 15 mins of circus tricks followed by loading (in an obviously drilled and practised order) a horse who was clearly already a good loader.  One foot in, one foot out, two feet in, two feet out etc etc.  Both horses in the demo were bored senseless, totally brain dead and TBH, had the same look of learned helplessness that some people say they see on certain dressage horses.  The horses were bored out of their minds, performing a routine they'd obviously been drilled through ad infinitum, and it was not a true loading demo.  In contrast, a Kelly Marks RA came out to me nearly 2 years ago to help with my truly bad loader (nearly broke my ankle barging out of the trailer, think rearing, kicking, spinning, the works) and within 45 mins she had him standing quietly on the trailer instead of quivering with nerves or trying to kill us all.  So, OP, you cannot use the argument that I have never seen "natural horsemanship" in action against me when I dismiss Parelli because I have, however I would prefer to put my horse in the hands of Kelly Marks any day over Pat and Linda Parelli.

I've known a few people attempt Parelli on their horses.  The lucky ones have ended up just with brain dead horses.  The unlucky one ended up with a totally dangerous horse who had to be sold because her nervous, novice owner couldn't get anywhere near her.


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## PHP (15 July 2010)

Hello All

Please take a moment to view the two attached links regarding the travesty that happened last weekend at the Festival of the Horse when Pat Parelli attempted to resolve a problem with the horse Catwalk, owned and ridden by British show jumping icon Robert Whitaker.

The first link illustrates the outrage that so many people feel after witnessing the shameful event.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gf7w_1ifus&feature=youtu.be

The second link is to a very provocative video blog response to the sham by Canadian horseman Chris Irwin.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGfqLkonBg0

For those who do not know of Chris Irwin here are just a few of his credentials:

Best selling author of Horses Dont Lie and Dancing With Your Dark Horse

Trainer of 18 U.S. National Riding & Driving Champions with Wild Horses

Trainer/Coach of students with problem horses that have gone on to win    National dressage championships in Canada, The Netherlands and Belgium

Trainer and coach of trainers/certified students who produce regional champions in western reining, western trail class, 3day eventing, show jumping, dressage, western reining and western trail classes

Trainer of problem thoroughbreds who have gone on to win races

Trainer of problem and runaway driving teams that have gone on to win parades

Consultant to numerous colleges and universities in developing advanced equine sciences and equestrian curriculum

Designer of equine assisted Leadership program and equine research programs with the University of Guelph in Canada

Featured presenter at major horse shows and expositions such as the Spruce Meadows Masters in Alberta, Canada, the Equine Affaires in America, The Royal Horse Show in Canada, The World Pony Club Conference and The Horse Event in the Netherlands

A few media quotes:

Irwin is the evolution of the Natural Horsemanship
Horses All Magazine, Canada

Dressage Today:  in the United States praised Irwins ability todevelop courage and confidence in nervous horses.

Dutch magazines such as Amazone, PaardenSport and Bit have written about his refreshing approach as non-aggressive while yielding incredible results and radical transformations in horses with issues. 

Horse & Rider magazine in the United States: nobody understands and explains the horse-human relationship better then Chris Irwin. 

Belgium magazine VVF:  Chris Irwin is The Master of Awareness.

PaardenSport: the elite Dutch equestrian magazine stated Irwins success is not because he is commercialized like so many of his American colleagues but because he is an extraordinary horseman and personal coach.


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## SandiAustin (15 July 2010)

DragonSlayer said:



			SandiAustin, thankyou so much for this! I was getting pretty dismayed over feeling that 'American is Better' and basically, it's just all good ole fashioned horse stuff at the end of the day!  

Click to expand...

Dear DragonSlayer...love the name by the way...i am glad if I can change some views about the "American Way" because we have a lot to offer just like you do...by working together our systems can work so well for the benefit of horses...is that not what we are all about after all. It is sooooo sad that so many people just care about bank accounts and not helping horse and human work together. No one is right and no one is perfect so lets all stay positive and help our equine friends...THAT IS WHAT WE ALL WANT AFTER ALL. Whether we are international standard, or just want to hack to the pub for a meal and a beer...HELLO... is this not all about working toward...enjoying horses...well i know i remember dreaming about my first pony.


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## DragonSlayer (15 July 2010)

SandiAustin said:



			Dear DragonSlayer...love the name by the way...i am glad if I can change some views about the "American Way" because we have a lot to offer just like you do...by working together our systems can work so well for the benefit of horses...is that not what we are all about after all. It is sooooo sad that so many people just care about bank accounts and not helping horse and human work together. No one is right and no one is perfect so lets all stay positive and help our equine friends...THAT IS WHAT WE ALL WANT AFTER ALL. Whether we are international standard, or just want to hack to the pub for a meal and a beer...HELLO... is this not all about working toward...enjoying horses...well i know i remember dreaming about my first pony.
		
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Are you Sandi Austin from Austins Equine....???? I googled you....!


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## Golf Girl (15 July 2010)

Abay said:



			Please explain to me, slowly if you prefer, how what PP did on Friday, was not dominating and how it was building a partnership.

Pretend, I have never touch a horse, but really want to join PP, if it is easier like that.
		
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I can't speak for PP! Only he can say why he did what he did on Friday!


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## Renvers (15 July 2010)

ponydentist said:



			Ahh......Hallelujha.

People are starting to think.

Other  use of the rope in that demo included the fixing of a rope atatched to the HALTER...and then to the horses LEG   (remember the importance of legs and feet here when training horses...think "footfall" as considered in classical riding techniques)...at two points at seperate stages...above the knee first....then below the knee. 

Can anyone tell me what the theroy behind the use of a standing martigale and a running martingale......does a running martingale not often involve putting pressure on the horses tongue???....one of the most domineering techniques involved in any form of horsetraining. Are these gadgets not forms of restraint employed to PREVENT a horse from lifting its head above a certain position??? Isnt that "prevention of freedom to display normal behaviour"?? Would not the sme thing but not used on the tongue be preferable??
Anymore lights comming on yet. 
I make no appology for my manner here. I started this thread and asked for sensible discussions.....from open minded people who were there.......not unfounded accusations of abuse and cruelty  from tunnel visioned narrow minded witch hunters.

I didnt ask for your views on Parelli Natural horsemanship. Look at my earlier posts posted last Sunday to see my experience and where im comming from ....Ive been....Ive seen and Ive handeled thousands and thousands of horses.
		
Click to expand...

There is a really good thread running on this site by Tongue~n~cheek who is a Parelli Practitioner, it is a good debate and many of the 'narrow minded' have responded postively and engaged in helpful discussion with her about the relative benefits of many training activities.

She has proven a good ambassador for Parelli and engaged in mature discussions, don't undo her good work with condesencion towards those you invited to debate in the first place.


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## chrisnapthineEDT (15 July 2010)

just a reminder here people,,,,catwalk is fine....he is his usual self and has been ridden out everyday.....i think this will be a learning experience for everyone involved.......but the main priority here is catwalk not people egos and reputations and he is fine and in no way traumatised or affected by the demostration ..........


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## SandiAustin (15 July 2010)

DragonSlayer said:



			Are you Sandi Austin from Austins Equine....???? I googled you....!
		
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ummmmm...yes i am...i did not want to say that because i do not want anyone to think i am doing the same rubbish!!! I am TRULY here for the horses and not for the marketing and i guess that is why i am not as rich as some!


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## PapaFrita (15 July 2010)

Golf Girl said:



			I can't speak for PP! Only he can say why he did what he did on Friday!
		
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Can I refer you to Sirena's question and mine? Thank you.


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## Abay (15 July 2010)

Golf Girl said:



			I can't speak for PP! Only he can say why he did what he did on Friday!
		
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I did not ask you to speak for PP, I asked you to explain to me, that what he did was not dominating and how that is building a partnership.

Let me re-formulate the question. Do YOU think, that, that is the way to build a partnership with a horse, or do YOU think what he did was dominating?


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## DragonSlayer (15 July 2010)

SandiAustin said:



			ummmmm...yes i am...i did not want to say that because i do not want anyone to think i am doing the same rubbish!!! I am TRULY here for the horses and not for the marketing and i guess that is why i am not as rich as some!
		
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OH MY GOD! I've heard about you for years and didn't dare call coz people tell me how awesome you are and you would think I'm some sort of ilk!

You sorted out major problems with someones horse I know who liked to eat people, he came back a soft puppy and you are their heroine!

You aren't too far from me either....might have to make a phone call!!!!

Yay!


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## Jennyharvey (15 July 2010)

I think what a few people have said that has bothered people the most is that pat parelli is supposed to be "natural horsemanship", and what he did they dont class as "Natural" at all.  Does that mean that someone who does this and does not use natural horsemanship are "allowed" to do this sort of thing?

What gets me is that people get all hot and bothered when we see this kind of treatment from a NH person but when it is by someone who isnt NH, such as a dressage rider or a jumper, its just seen as training.  
lets take draw reins?  Im sure no one here uses them, but a lot of the pros do.  Although they prevent the horse from being able to say anything by moving his head, they are seen as useful tools.  
What about flash nose bands.  Again, im sure no one here uses one, but most people will agree they have a place in horse training.  Again, they prevent the horse from saying anything because his mouth is clamped shut.  Maybe his mouth hurts him or he doesnt like the bit.  Lets shut him up by tying his mouth shut.  Again, im sure no one here does that.  

I think that before we judge someone on his techniques we really have to evaluate our own.  People here have said that us in the UK treat out horses kinder and have higher welfare standards than the US?  Really? Examples please if any one has them.  

Do our higher welfare standards include the use of whips, spurs, bits, draw reins, bungies, clamp nosebands?

And its the people at the top of their game, the pros, who are more guilty than others because they have more of a desire to win, sometimes at any cost.  Who looses out, the horse.  

Im not saying what pat did was the right thing, he made a judgement error.  Wrong horse, wrong place.  

But from what i have seen in my life of the treatment of traditional trainers at all levels, im glad to be associated with what people term natural horsemanship.  In my views, its just good training.  wether is parelli or another trainer.

People really need to open their eyes to the cruelty in our own backyards.  People at county level shows or affliated events are just as guilty of cruelty by the use of certain bits, nosebands, whips etc.  If people cant see this sort of thing as common, then maybe it is them who is blinded by the truth.  

Rant over


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## SirenaXVI (15 July 2010)

Golf Girl said:



			I can't speak for PP! Only he can say why he did what he did on Friday!
		
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At the risk of repeating myself - so you did not understand it either?


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## ponydentist (15 July 2010)

SirenaXVI said:



			Can I turn the question on you then please ponydentist?

How many lessons have you had with Olympic Dressage Trainers

How many BD official training sessions have you attended

How many official BD displays have you given

How many times have you trained with Carl Hester

Have you read Xenophon?

It's all relative
		
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I have had Lessons with Christopher Bartle and his sister Jayne.....does that count?? I have treated horses for him.....and given lectures to his students. He and Jayne told a client who was looking for a reference from them for my services...."not only is he the best dentist we have ever used but he is also one of the best horsemen we have ever had working on our horses" I have also had lessons with Vicky Thompson and have treated horses for her at Oldencraig.

No official Brirtish dressage training sessions attended.

No official British Dressage Displays given

No Lessons had with Carl Hester

Dressage isnt my particular interest.....doesnt float my boat. 

Have read some of Xenophon....he was one of the first to make references to dentistry in equines and his writings on bitting are thought provoking. Read it when working with Dale and Ron Myler of Myler bits fame.

Come on then.....whats the relavence?


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## Golf Girl (15 July 2010)

PapaFrita said:



			Can I refer you to Sirena's question and mine? Thank you.
		
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What?


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## Onyxia (15 July 2010)

ponydentist said:



			Ahh......Hallelujha.
		
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I wouldnt be trying to bring God into this one,given that his message was not to hurt animals 





ponydentist said:



			I make no appology for my manner here. I started this thread and asked for sensible discussions.....from open minded people who were there.......not unfounded accusations of abuse and cruelty  from tunnel visioned narrow minded witch hunters.
		
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Ah joy- a new buzzword! 
Fact is,ANYONE seen handling Catwalk(or any other horse) in that mannor would have the same treatment on here.
It is NOT OK and people will not ignore it-thats not a witch hunt it is standing up for an animal that can't do it for itself.
As for the question,care to try that one again? 
Did you want honest views or opinions that backed your up?





ponydentist said:



			How many of you have ever watched stallions fight when fighting for supremacy?? What do they try to to do to each others legs??/ in particular the foreleg?? What is the thing a horse treasures most (body part) and what part of the body are horse most reluctant to let anyone or anything touch, handle or incapcitate???? Are we getting there yet anyone???? Any lights comming on in empty heads??/
		
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Have you ever watched lions fight for supremacy? 
Would you care to employ those tactics when "teaching" a lion how to behave and accept what you want? 
Of course not,a lion would fight to win not to make an escape route. 

We are not and never can be accepted as horses-attempting to speak a language they can understand is a good thing,pretending we can become fluent at it is plain stupid and attempting it with a frightend horse is downright dangerous.
The way to handle any part of a horse is to be trusted by it. We earn their trust be prooving we are deserving of that trust,not by forcing them to do what we want.


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## brighteyes (15 July 2010)

chrisnapthineEDT said:



			just a reminder here people,,,,catwalk is fine....he is his usual self and has been ridden out everyday.....i think this will be a learning experience for everyone involved.......but the main priority here is catwalk not people egos and reputations and he is fine and in no way traumatised or affected by the demostration ..........
		
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How do they manage with putting his bridle on?


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## Golf Girl (15 July 2010)

Abay said:



			I did not ask you to speak for PP, I asked you to explain to me, that what he did was not dominating and how that is building a partnership.

Let me re-formulate the question. Do YOU think, that, that is the way to build a partnership with a horse, or do YOU think what he did was dominating?
		
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Hey, read my lips. I am not Pat Parelli, therefore I can't say why he did what he did - only he can explain that. I wasn't there, I didn't see the whole thing, so how can I (or anyone else who wasn't there throughout, and doesn't have the benefit of knowing what his rationale was at the time) possibly comment on that specific subject?


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## Onyxia (15 July 2010)

chrisnapthineEDT said:



			just a reminder here people,,,,catwalk is fine....he is his usual self and has been ridden out everyday.....i think this will be a learning experience for everyone involved.......but the main priority here is catwalk not people egos and reputations and he is fine and in no way traumatised or affected by the demostration ..........
		
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While I am sure everyone is extremly happy that Catwak is fine and dandy,that in itself makes him now NOT the priority.

People are weird creatures,and if someone gets away with bad behaviour once they will do it again.....then again.......and again. Then hell,why not try something more extreme? not had anything bad happen for previous bad behavoiur right?
Catwalk may have walked away with no long term issues(although if his mouth was cut he did get some short term problems) the next horse or another somewhere down the line may not be so lucky.
The way PP delt with Catwalk may be fine in his little self centred world but it is not and never will be in the UK.

Treat the animals in your care right or face the music.
A favorite quote of mine from childhood,although I have no idea where it came from-



			We ordane the hour of their birth and the hour of their death,in between-we have a duty.
		
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## SirenaXVI (15 July 2010)

Jennyharvey said:



			I think what a few people have said that has bothered people the most is that pat parelli is supposed to be "natural horsemanship", and what he did they dont class as "Natural" at all.  Does that mean that someone who does this and does not use natural horsemanship are "allowed" to do this sort of thing?Absolutely not

What gets me is that people get all hot and bothered when we see this kind of treatment from a NH person but when it is by someone who isnt NH, such as a dressage rider or a jumper, its just seen as training.  
NO it is not
lets take draw reins?  Im sure no one here uses them, but a lot of the pros do.  Although they prevent the horse from being able to say anything by moving his head, they are seen as useful tools. 
I [personally don't like draw reins either and have said so, many many times  
What about flash nose bands.  Again, im sure no one here uses one, but most people will agree they have a place in horse training.  Again, they prevent the horse from saying anything because his mouth is clamped shut.  Maybe his mouth hurts him or he doesnt like the bit.  Lets shut him up by tying his mouth shut.  Again, im sure no one here does that.  
I hate flash nosebands

I think that before we judge someone on his techniques we really have to evaluate our own.  People here have said that us in the UK treat out horses kinder and have higher welfare standards than the US?  Really? Examples please if any one has them.  Actually I don't believe this for a moment, I am perfectly confident that there are some excellent horse  people in America, I am equally confident that the UK has some terrible horse people 

Do our higher welfare standards include the use of whips, spurs, bits, draw reins, bungies, clamp nosebands?
I use a dressage whip and I also use spurs, neither is used as a form of abuse and I have never hit a horse in anger

And its the people at the top of their game, the pros, who are more guilty than others because they have more of a desire to win, sometimes at any cost.  Who looses out, the horse.  
You may well be right but abuse is also committed by non professionals - on both sides of the pond


Im not saying what pat did was the right thing, he made a judgement error.  Wrong horse, wrong place.  
wrong methods
But from what i have seen in my life of the treatment of traditional trainers at all levels, im glad to be associated with what people term natural horsemanship.  In my views, its just good training.  wether is parelli or another trainer.
I will never ever think of Parelli as NH again
People really need to open their eyes to the cruelty in our own backyards.  People at county level shows or affliated events are just as guilty of cruelty by the use of certain bits, nosebands, whips etc.  If people cant see this sort of thing as common, then maybe it is them who is blinded by the truth.  
Yes and I am sure that each and every person who has commented on this thread would step in if they saw real abuse - I know I have.
Rant over
		
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I don't know what methods you 'think' we non NH people use but I can assure you that in the main they do NOT involve what you describe above, I don't dispute for a moment that not all conventional people use the soft approach, but then Mr P has just proved that not all NH people do either


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## martlin (15 July 2010)

ponydentist said:



			Ahh......Hallelujha.

People are starting to think.

Other  use of the rope in that demo included the fixing of a rope atatched to the HALTER...and then to the horses LEG   (remember the importance of legs and feet here when training horses...think "footfall" as considered in classical riding techniques)...at two points at seperate stages...above the knee first....then below the knee. 

Can anyone tell me what the theroy behind the use of a standing martigale and a running martingale......does a running martingale not often involve putting pressure on the horses tongue???....one of the most domineering techniques involved in any form of horsetraining. Are these gadgets not forms of restraint employed to PREVENT a horse from lifting its head above a certain position??? Isnt that "prevention of freedom to display normal behaviour"?? Would not the sme thing but not used on the tongue be preferable??
Anymore lights comming on yet. 
I make no appology for my manner here. I started this thread and asked for sensible discussions.....from open minded people who were there.......not unfounded accusations of abuse and cruelty  from tunnel visioned narrow minded witch hunters.

I didnt ask for your views on Parelli Natural horsemanship. Look at my earlier posts posted last Sunday to see my experience and where im comming from ....Ive been....Ive seen and Ive handeled thousands and thousands of horses.
		
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You are getting nicer and nicer by the minute. I've considered briefly a response to you that would maybe get understood better by you, but thought better of it - I can't justify resulting to insults.
As you won't apologise for your manner, I will just point out that if you need to be rude to put your argument across - you have lost the debate.


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## SirenaXVI (15 July 2010)

ponydentist said:



			I have had Lessons with Christopher Bartle and his sister Jayne.....does that count?? I have treated horses for him.....and given lectures to his students. He and Jayne told a client who was looking for a reference from them for my services...."not only is he the best dentist we have ever used but he is also one of the best horsemen we have ever had working on our horses" I have also had lessons with Vicky Thompson and have treated horses for her at Oldencraig.

No official Brirtish dressage training sessions attended.

No official British Dressage Displays given

No Lessons had with Carl Hester

Dressage isnt my particular interest.....doesnt float my boat. 

Have read some of Xenophon....he was one of the first to make references to dentistry in equines and his writings on bitting are thought provoking. Read it when working with Dale and Ron Myler of Myler bits fame.

Come on then.....whats the relavence?
		
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I did state earlier what the relevance was but I will repeat it here.

You insinuated that Martlin's experience (which is considerable btw) was inferior to yours.  You then attempted to prove a point by asking PNP based questions.  As Martlin is not into PNP your questions were an irrelevant way to guage her horse experience, just as my dressage based ones are irrelevant to yours, lucky guess on my part that my dressage experience is considerably more than yours - no offence intended.


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## baymareb (15 July 2010)

ponydentist said:



			I have spoken to the RSPCA and prepared to give a statement to the effect that NO ABUSE OR CRUELTY happeneed that night. I ave also contacted the head of welfare at the BHS and given a side of the story to the same effect.
		
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And this is your right, just as others have a right to complain about it.



ponydentist said:



			The techniques, methodology and rationalle used with that particular horse have been used....researched.... and proven to work in certain cases.
		
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Let's assume that is correct (which doesn't mean I agree with it because your statement without any backing documentation - and I don't mean some quote from a Parelli website - proves nothing).  Even if these techniques are correct, I will NEVER approve of these demos and clinics that give the impression (when they work) that horse training can be a quick and easy enterprise.  It is not, nor should it be.

As far as I'm concerned, it is irresponsible of any horse professional to put on a show purporting to "fix" problem horse.  Don't like it, never will.  And a problem like bridling is known by every reputable horse person I know to be one that requires time and patience.  A public demo seems an awful place for that type of horse.



ponydentist said:



			Do you really honestly think in your wildest dreams that a man of this statuer in the horse world would commit suicide in sucha manner in front of hundreds of people.
		
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You've made this argument before and it's a poor one.  Just because a person holds a high position doesn't mean they won't act foolishly.  In fact, many people in high positions have become so arrogant that they have subsequently been tumbled from them because of their arrogance.



ponydentist said:



			This is a WITHCHUNT by people who's knowledge of horsemanship and training techniques extend only to the tiny little worlds they live in. Some people's experience of horses and horsemanship extend only to their own experiences of owning maybe a few horses and those of their friends.
		
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This is just insulting to everyone who has objected.  You know nothing of the experience of myself or anyone else on this thread and I know nothing of yours.  I would no sooner accuse you of being an ignorant horse person than I would anyone else.  It is the same knee-jerk argument I see in so many of the comments on the Parelli Facebook page - "they just don't understand."  It is patronizing and does no justice to your argument. 



ponydentist said:



			I have seen more horsemanship than most
		
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You are able to tout your expertise but no one else here has any knowledge?



ponydentist said:



			and understand that everything he did that night was done for a reason .....one reason.....to help the horse.
		
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If he wanted to truly help the horse, he would have conducted his "training" in a quiet environment over time.



ponydentist said:



			i hope the hell he sue's the arse of you all who have accused him in writing.....but I know he wont....but he should.
		
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And this shows a singular lack of understanding of the realities of defamation when one is a public figure.  One of the key elements is that the statements have to be shown to be untrue - I'm not aware that anything on here that has been stated has been untrue - the great majority has been opinion.


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## PapaFrita (15 July 2010)

Golf Girl.
This question:

Ok, a genuine question. Actually questions.
Do you think that Catwalk's briding issues could've been handled differently? Over more time, for instance, gradually introducing him to the bridle. Or do you think that Pat handled the situation the best way possible?
If you think that Catwalk's issues could've been dealt with differently, over weeks rather than hours or days, don't you think that THAT's the example he should have set? 

Also this question. 

Weeell, if he's giving a demonstration of his techniques, isn't the point to explain? And if we are all guilty of a 'misunderstanding' why is there no explanation forthcoming? Surely this would be the way of settling everyone's grievances? Does he think he's above explaining as we're all too ignorant to understand? If so, as I asked in a previous post, surely he should be demonstrating the techniques the spectators CAN understand and put into practice themselves without running the risk of hurting themselves or the horse (because you CAN see how this could've happened, can't you?)

Also, how is 2 people holding a horse with ropes not about dominance? This is clear from the very grainy video. If the horse is not given the chance to retreat/escape then that is most certainly dominance.

I know the first question was not addressed to you personally in the first instance, but it would be nice to get a straight answer. Heck, any answer that wasn't a deflection or evasion would be good.


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## SirenaXVI (15 July 2010)

Golf Girl said:



			Hey, read my lips. I am not Pat Parelli, therefore I can't say why he did what he did - only he can explain that. I wasn't there, I didn't see the whole thing, so how can I (or anyone else who wasn't there throughout, and doesn't have the benefit of knowing what his rationale was at the time) possibly comment on that specific subject?
		
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Yup I repeat you did not understand it either then


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## Abay (15 July 2010)

Golf Girl said:



			Hey, read my lips. I am not Pat Parelli, therefore I can't say why he did what he did - only he can explain that. I wasn't there, I didn't see the whole thing, so how can I (or anyone else who wasn't there throughout, and doesn't have the benefit of knowing what his rationale was at the time) possibly comment on that specific subject?
		
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AGAIN, I DIDNOT ASK YOU TO EXPLAIN WHY PP DID WHAT HE DID. I asked, if YOU (yes YOU, not PP), think what he did was dominating the horse or the correct way, in YOUR eyes to form a partnership with a horse. 

Sorry, now writing in cap. letters is rude, but but but....................


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## ponydentist (15 July 2010)

mtj said:



			Pops head above parapet.

Ok Ponydentist.   I've seen 2 Monty Roberts demos in the Uk and have been to the Illinois Horsefest where i got to see Linda tellington Jones, Gawani Pony boy and Chris Cox in action.
I have a ticket to see Andrew McLean next month.

Am I entitled to an opinion?  If so, please hear my disgust at the video i have viewed on Youtube.
		
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You have seen a few different horsemen then .....some of who use "NH" some of who dont....Gawani Pony boy......( the jewish guy who poses as a native American)....hmmmmm.

Have any of these people dealt with many extreeme stallions as in this case in particular case. If they have they may be familiar with the methodologies and techniques involved.


All I am saying here is that what some people saw was what they wanted to see.....they may not have int insight to see deeper and understand the pyschology involved i what happened. 

Taking aside the marketing of Parelli Natural Horsemanship and all its strategies  and the way it promotes itself......Is anyone...hand on heart stupid enough to think that one of the worlds greatest horsemen....horse trainers...call him what you will or wont.....would "abuse" or be cruel to a horse in front of hundreds of people?

What he may be guilty of is failing to explain fully what his rationalle was in using those methods with that particular horse. I have absolutely no doubt at all that what he did....he did for a reason.....to help the horse.

My own personal feelings are that there will be a full unedited video available with FULL NARRATION of the rationale and pyschology behind the techniques used. I feel it will be offered for view to the world leading equine welfare organisations firsrt for their understanding and critique....before offering it to those who are lower down the scale in terms of familiarity with those philosphies.

If he wants to sell it a highh price....so be it....if he gets the ubderstanding of those afforementioned "officials".....then so be it. Upto him....it was his demo.

When you have a greater understanding of some of the techniques involved...eg why the use of legs was so instrumental in this approach....then maybe some may see how it may fit more into the "natural" mode....eg using what happens in nature to good effect.


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## Abay (15 July 2010)

SirenaXVI said:



			Yup I repeat you did not understand it either then

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Sorry to say, I think you are right


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## henryhorn (15 July 2010)

Jennyharvey sorry but your rant doesn't make sense. 
The P organisation has set itself up World Wide as something "natural" and kind. 
I fail to see how a flash noseband is in the same league as giving a horse an injury however minor, subjecting it to an out and out fight in front of an audience then telling them what happened was ok..
You P lovers can rant and shout as loud as you like that the rest of us can't see what we should, but judging from the number of experienced horse people who have responded to the initial thread, it's the P people who have their eyes blinkered. 
I agree PP handled that stallion badly, but what worries me somewhat is if he felt it was acceptable to treat it like that in a public demo, what on earth may he be doing out of sight? 
I was more than happy to learn about any new training methods when P first appeared in the UK. Then I saw the results of several horses who had been parellied by inexperienced horse owners. As a professional it was obvious what had happened was despite attending the training courses the owners had "trained " their animals to do things incorrectly, making it a hell of a task to rehabilitate (yes I use that word deliberately) said horses. 
I then watched a number of parelli demonstrators getting ready behind the scenes before a demo, their carrot sticks were just that STICKS...  
And they used them the same way and far too frequently as well. 
I am afraid you protest too much, we can all see with our own eyes in various clips (the blind horse as well as this stallion) how incompetent the head people at Parelli can be, and how clever marketing has made their organisation look. 
The members on H and H forums cover a huge spectrum, from professional event/dressage riders and trainers to happy hackers, but one thing unites them all; they aren't stupid....


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## ponydentist (15 July 2010)

SirenaXVI said:



			I did state earlier what the relevance was but I will repeat it here.

You insinuated that Martlin's experience (which is considerable btw) was inferior to yours.  You then attempted to prove a point by asking PNP based questions.  As Martlin is not into PNP your questions were an irrelevant way to guage her horse experience, just as my dressage based ones are irrelevant to yours, lucky guess on my part that my dressage experience is considerably more than yours - no offence intended.
		
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Sorry....am a little lost.....what  do you mean by PNP based questions? I am talking about and was refereing to in my questions to the poster concerned....techniques used by several different horse trainers ? behaviorists / horsemen and women. I dont recall being specific to PNP methods.


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## baymareb (15 July 2010)

ponydentist said:



			Have any of these people dealt with many extreeme stallions as in this case in particular case.
		
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Oh, stop it with the "extreme stallion" nonsense!  There is nothing in any of these videos or with the eyewitness accounts that makes me believe there was anything "extreme" about this stallion.  He's a high level HJ - if he was that "extreme" it would not be possible to use him in that way.

That's as ridiculous as the argument that if he hadn't been "fixed" by Parelli, he'd have gone for dog food.


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## SirenaXVI (15 July 2010)

ponydentist said:



			Sorry....am a little lost.....what  do you mean by PNP based questions? I am talking about and was refereing to in my questions to the poster concerned....techniques used by several different horse trainers ? behaviorists / horsemen and women. I dont recall being specific to PNP methods.
		
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OK my mistake not PNH but def NH no?  Not difficult to guess that Martlin was not into NH was it?  My point remains the same.


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## Golf Girl (15 July 2010)

PapaFrita said:



			Golf Girl.
This question:

Ok, a genuine question. Actually questions.
Do you think that Catwalk's briding issues could've been handled differently? Over more time, for instance, gradually introducing him to the bridle. Or do you think that Pat handled the situation the best way possible?
If you think that Catwalk's issues could've been dealt with differently, over weeks rather than hours or days, don't you think that THAT's the example he should have set? 

Also this question. 

Weeell, if he's giving a demonstration of his techniques, isn't the point to explain? And if we are all guilty of a 'misunderstanding' why is there no explanation forthcoming? Surely this would be the way of settling everyone's grievances? Does he think he's above explaining as we're all too ignorant to understand? If so, as I asked in a previous post, surely he should be demonstrating the techniques the spectators CAN understand and put into practice themselves without running the risk of hurting themselves or the horse (because you CAN see how this could've happened, can't you?)

Also, how is 2 people holding a horse with ropes not about dominance? This is clear from the very grainy video. If the horse is not given the chance to retreat/escape then that is most certainly dominance.

I know the first questions was not addressed to you personally in the first instance, but it would be nice to get a straight answer. Heck, any answer that wasn't a deflection or evasion would be good.
		
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I'm sorry, I don't know what Catwalk's 'bridling issues' were. I don't know how Pat handled the situation, I wasn't there. I don't know what the point of the whole exercise was - whether it was a 'demo' to showcase Pat's skill as a horseman, a 'clinic' to sort out real people's/horses' problems, or an 'overview' of the Parelli methodology for those not familiar with it. I'm not an expert in PNH (or anything else for that matter). Whilst I really would love to give you the answers that you seek, I'm afraid only Pat Parelli is in a position to do that.


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## Onyxia (15 July 2010)

ponydentist said:



			Have any of these people dealt with many extreeme stallions as in this case in particular case. If they have they may be familiar with the methodologies and techniques involved.
		
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Dude,get over yourself  
	
	
		
		
	


	




Can you post a link to a video showing Catwalk behaving as a dangerous wild stallion that will kill or maim PP if not dominated ASAP?
Go on,try to find one 
Refusal to accept the bridle/fear of the bridle is a common issue(normaly IME caused by rough handling and/or the handler letting the bit bang the mouth as it is put in or taken out).
Catwalk was acting like a horse confronted by something it fears,not a dangerous animal.
Mares are also entire,does that mean we should be on the offensive with them too,you know-just in case they decide to be dominant and dangerous? 




ponydentist said:



			All I am saying here is that what some people saw was what they wanted to see.....they may not have int insight to see deeper and understand the pyschology involved i what happened. 

Taking aside the marketing of Parelli Natural Horsemanship and all its strategies  and the way it promotes itself......Is anyone...hand on heart stupid enough to think that one of the worlds greatest horsemen....horse trainers...call him what you will or wont.....would "abuse" or be cruel to a horse in front of hundreds of people?
		
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Define how he is great?
Numbers helped? MR has been at it longer,must have a greater total by now.
Money made?Thats simple marketing.
Number of payed up followers? See above 

We are smart enough to know that a man given enough "power" will come to belive his own hype,eventually beliving his actions to be beyound question and right becaause they are his actions.
That would fit the above if you decide to acept PP as a good horseman to begin with 



ponydentist said:



			What he may be guilty of is failing to explain fully what his rationalle was in using those methods with that particular horse. I have absolutely no doubt at all that what he did....he did for a reason.....to help the horse.
		
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Epic fail for a teacher,don't you think?



ponydentist said:



			My own personal feelings are that there will be a full unedited video available with FULL NARRATION of the rationale and pyschology behind the techniques used. I feel it will be offered for view to the world leading equine welfare organisations firsrt for their understanding and critique....before offering it to those who are lower down the scale in terms of familiarity with those philosphies.
		
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As has been pointed out to you allready,if you have to resort to insults you have allready lost the debate.
I would simply like to add that if you are going to use insults,make 'em good ones please.
Poor ones are just boring  
	
	
		
		
	


	










ponydentist said:



			When you have a greater understanding of some of the techniques involved...eg why the use of legs was so instrumental in this approach....then maybe some may see how it may fit more into the "natural" mode....eg using what happens in nature to good effect.
		
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I hope like mad I never come to think the way Catwalk was treated is a good way to deal with horses.It may have done the job(time will tell) but the end does not justify the means.


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## Golf Girl (15 July 2010)

Abay said:



			AGAIN, I DIDNOT ASK YOU TO EXPLAIN WHY PP DID WHAT HE DID. I asked, if YOU (yes YOU, not PP), think what he did was dominating the horse or the correct way, in YOUR eyes to form a partnership with a horse. 

Sorry, now writing in cap. letters is rude, but but but....................
		
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I WAS NOT THERE, I DID NOT SEE WHAT HAPPENED!

With respect, no one is in a position to comment on what went on unless they were there throughout and saw the whole thing! I don't see how I can make it any clearer!


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## Munchkin (15 July 2010)

ponydentist, you have an incredibly high opinion of yourself, don't you? I can see why you and Prat would get along.

Now, in my experience (which I know is of course pitiful compared to your Godly status), people who feel the need to tell everyone how wonderful they are, constantly, usually aren't.

I've had lessons with Chris and Jane too. And a few other very well thought of international riders and trainers.  My vet is one of the top vets in the country, I learn an awful lot from him, as he chooses to talk me through treatment and let me take over when I can. Nice to be trusted.  Do I think I know more about riding and veterinary care than everyone else on here? No. Do I think I have a lot to learn? Yes. 

Seen plenty of NH demos, including Prat's. Learnt some things at many of them, "banked" in case I ever come across a horse who requires another approach.  I can honestly say, hand on heart, that Prat Parelli is the only "NH" person who has failed to impress me. I have always found him and his followers somewhat amusing... or should that be bemusing?  Most of what all of these people demonstrate, however, is common sense.

Since Friday last week I've had a pony who wouldn't come near a human being (and would spin and kick out at a person who attempted to approach him in an enclosed space). He's now letting me climb all over him while he stands in the stable.  Am I a "natural horsewoman?" No, I just used my experience to deal with him and to be honest it wasn't rocket science.

I've competed in show jumping (mainly), showing, dressage and hunter trials. I hunt, had a crack at team chasing, I break my own horses in, I break other people's horses in, I reschool so-called problem horses.  

Do I think I know more than everyone here? No. Do I think I know more about some aspects of horsecare and riding than some here? Yes. Do I think some people here know more about some aspects of horsecare and riding than me? Yes.

Point of my post?

GET OVER YOURSELF.


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## martlin (15 July 2010)

SirenaXVI said:



			OK my mistake not PNH but def NH no?  Not difficult to guess that Martlin was not into NH was it?  My point remains the same.
		
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Oh, but Sirena, I AM the one and only TRUE horse whisperer! Doesn't get any more 'natural' than that, does it?
Anyway, I've answered Ponydentist's questions in as much detailed as I'm prepared to go into, hope that helped and he will maybe tell you that, because as I can see, he prefers to talk about me rather than to me, which is fair enough.


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## SirenaXVI (15 July 2010)

ponydentist said:



			You have seen a few different horsemen then .....some of who use "NH" some of who dont....Gawani Pony boy......( the jewish guy who poses as a native American)....hmmmmm.
Irrelevant to this particular case
Have any of these people dealt with many extreeme stallions as in this case in particular case. If they have they may be familiar with the methodologies and techniques involved.
Blimey did you really believe that was an 'extreme' stallion, my oh my you have led a sheltered life

All I am saying here is that what some people saw was what they wanted to see.....they may not have int insight to see deeper and understand the pyschology involved i what happened. 
Oh please not that *******s again!  WE ARE NOT STUPID AND RECOGNISE BAD TRAINING METHODS WHEN WE SEE THEM sorry for shouting
Taking aside the marketing of Parelli Natural Horsemanship and all its strategies  and the way it promotes itself......Is anyone...hand on heart stupid enough to think that one of the worlds greatest horsemen....horse trainers...call him what you will or wont.....would "abuse" or be cruel to a horse in front of hundreds of people?
Not so much stupid, but very very arrogant

What he may be guilty of is failing to explain fully what his rationalle was in using those methods with that particular horse. I have absolutely no doubt at all that what he did....he did for a reason.....to help the horse.
Yup blindly believe without question

My own personal feelings are that there will be a full unedited video available with FULL NARRATION of the rationale and pyschology behind the techniques used. I feel it will be offered for view to the world leading equine welfare organisations firsrt for their understanding and critique....before offering it to those who are lower down the scale in terms of familiarity with those philosphies.
I await this with interest

If he wants to sell it a highh price....so be it....if he gets the ubderstanding of those afforementioned "officials".....then so be it. Upto him....it was his demo.
Of course he will sell it at a high price, that's a given!

When you have a greater understanding of some of the techniques involved...eg why the use of legs was so instrumental in this approach....then maybe some may see how it may fit more into the "natural" mode....eg using what happens in nature to good effect.
		
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Actually, I never have and never will want to have a greater understanding of what went on.  You see my lovely mares and myself are very happy in our little bubble of ignorance.  The fact that when I work them free in the school, they follow me round copying my movements - and I mean spanish walk and passage btw, they keep out of my space unless invited in and are happy and secure within themselves is enough for me


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## Jennyharvey (15 July 2010)

henryhorn said:



			Jennyharvey sorry but your rant doesn't make sense. 
The P organisation has set itself up World Wide as something "natural" and kind. 
I fail to see how a flash noseband is in the same league as giving a horse an injury however minor, subjecting it to an out and out fight in front of an audience then telling them what happened was ok..
You P lovers can rant and shout as loud as you like that the rest of us can't see what we should, but judging from the number of experienced horse people who have responded to the initial thread, it's the P people who have their eyes blinkered. 
I agree PP handled that stallion badly, but what worries me somewhat is if he felt it was acceptable to treat it like that in a public demo, what on earth may he be doing out of sight? 
I was more than happy to learn about any new training methods when P first appeared in the UK. Then I saw the results of several horses who had been parellied by inexperienced horse owners. As a professional it was obvious what had happened was despite attending the training courses the owners had "trained " their animals to do things incorrectly, making it a hell of a task to rehabilitate (yes I use that word deliberately) said horses. 
I then watched a number of parelli demonstrators getting ready behind the scenes before a demo, their carrot sticks were just that STICKS...  
And they used them the same way and far too frequently as well. 
I am afraid you protest too much, we can all see with our own eyes in various clips (the blind horse as well as this stallion) how incompetent the head people at Parelli can be, and how clever marketing has made their organisation look. 
The members on H and H forums cover a huge spectrum, from professional event/dressage riders and trainers to happy hackers, but one thing unites them all; they aren't stupid....
		
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I agree with you.  There are alot of bad horse trainers who train using parelli and other so called NH methods.  But what im trying to say is that i feel that some people are blinkered to what goes on in our own backyard and our own local shows.  
Maybe other pepple here dont always see traditional horsemanship for what it is.  And why wouldnt you class a flash as the same as injuring a horse?  The damage a bit can do to a horses mouth, just because we cant see the horse shouting because his mouth is strapped shut doesnt mean that its not hurting the horse.  
And by the way, i do feel that some parelli people are blinkered, but they are not the only ones.  
Im not saying what pat did was appropriate, far from it.  But i dont think that many people in UK equestrian sector arent guilt fee either.  Maybe they are not charging a fortune to teach the stuff, but that doesnt mean its acceptable.


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## PapaFrita (15 July 2010)

Golf Girl said:



			I'm sorry, I don't know what Catwalk's 'bridling issues' were. I don't know how Pat handled the situation, I wasn't there. I don't know what the point of the whole exercise was - whether it was a 'demo' to showcase Pat's skill as a horseman, a 'clinic' to sort out real people's/horses' problems, or an 'overview' of the Parelli methodology for those not familiar with it. I'm not an expert in PNH (or anything else for that matter). Whilst I really would love to give you the answers that you seek, I'm afraid only Pat Parelli is in a position to do that.
		
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So you haven't watched the video and yet defend him? Confusing.


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## Jennyharvey (15 July 2010)

SirenaXVI said:



I don't know what methods you 'think' we non NH people use but I can assure you that in the main they do NOT involve what you describe above, I don't dispute for a moment that not all conventional people use the soft approach, but then Mr P has just proved that not all NH people do either

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I would agree.


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## Crazy Friesian (15 July 2010)

YAWN Hopefully their ticket out of the uk...


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## Abay (15 July 2010)

Golf Girl said:



I WAS NOT THERE, I DID NOT SEE WHAT HAPPENED!

With respect, no one is in a position to comment on what went on unless they were there throughout and saw the whole thing! I don't see how I can make it any clearer!
		
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You finally answered (well sort of), my question or you just do not want to.

With respect, I can personally make an opinion from the youtube clips.
Lip chains, rope around legs with 2 people pulling on them, is in my opinion dominating and not the way to build a partnership.


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## Golf Girl (15 July 2010)

PapaFrita said:



			So you haven't watched the video and yet defend him? Confusing.
		
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Em, I watched the 'video' to which you refer, and these brief, poor quality clips taken out of the context of the full session are not sufficient to allow me (or anyone else) to make an informed opinion on what went on.


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## Onyxia (15 July 2010)

Jennyharvey said:



			Im not saying what pat did was appropriate, far from it.  But i dont think that many people in UK equestrian sector arent guilt fee either.  Maybe they are not charging a fortune to teach the stuff, but that doesnt mean its acceptable.
		
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I agree,as would anyone else.
I sadly see people digging in spurs while hauling on the mouth,feeding their allready fat horses to death and making bad decisions about their care due to lack of experiance (for example) all too often.I don't ignore it and don't think many would.

There are many issues in the horse world that need dealing with,many common practises that need to end and we do what we can when we can-startign with shouting loadly about treatment and training(of horse and rider).


Edit to add-
Ponydentist,you started this thread 5 days ago and Admin have not pulled it.
I very much doubt someone has yet to push The Big Button so they will be aware of it,but feel there is nothing(as yet anyway) to make them delete it.

A large company wary of legal action would not hesitate to remove the thread if they thought it would land them in hot water.


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## Natch (15 July 2010)

To those who keep on saying we can't possibly judge because we weren't there.

There are video clips.

Everyone who was there and has posted on here has stated the same facts of what physically happened. Which rather leads me to believe that the horse DID have a rope deliberately around its leg for the purpose of holding his leg up, and that the horse DID have a rope inserted between his gum and lip.

The BHS have confirmed to anyone who wishes to email them, that they did arrange for a vet to see the horse and that it did have a cut on its inner lip. They confirmed that the vet advised the horse not be used for a demonstration the following day (irrelevant as to if it was planned or not).

Anyone wish to say that the above are not statements of fact?

The reasons for it, and our opinions on that are being debated. Everyone has the right to be heard. 

I stand by my assertions that:
a) Quite apart from anything else, as an equine science student and a person who has studied and practiced NH for years, the things above do not sit right with me, whether it be in the name of NH or anything else. 
b) There is a PP quote that says in effect that he doesn't agree with twitches, spurs and tie-downs. The facts go against his previous assertions, which is hypocritical.
c) I don't think using a gum line or holding a horse's leg up for whatever reason should be classed as Natural Horsemanship. If there were a governing body of NH I would be petitioning them to have the words Natural and Horsemanship removed from the Parelli brand name.


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## ponydentist (15 July 2010)

baymareb said:



			Oh, stop it with the "extreme stallion" nonsense!  There is nothing in any of these videos or with the eyewitness accounts that makes me believe there was anything "extreme" about this stallion.  He's a high level HJ - if he was that "extreme" it would not be possible to use him in that way.

That's as ridiculous as the argument that if he hadn't been "fixed" by Parelli, he'd have gone for dog food.  

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Not necessarilly talking about stallion behaviour here (I was there....I did see....I am familiar with techniques and horse body language...behavioural traits). I mean this was an Extreme case of head shy / bridle evasion... one of the most I have seen i 46 years. There were elements of extreme resistance as well as those of fear of the bridle...Im sure it became clear to Pat Parelli that this was more than at first thought....but there were times when the horse said "ok...im happy with that ... move on to next stage" and when the trainer got to the next stage the horse said..."F**K **F. There was a wellestablished chain of events in the horses mind which had led him to display such behaviour when presented with certain scenarios. ONE LINK in that chain ha to be broken in order to get a way of moving forward. Once that one link has been broken, the whole chain of events can start to be dissolved and another view of the same scenario seen by the horse. I see this so many times with horses who have an extreem aversion to being able to cope with having routine dental treatments performed on them...association with the Gag ...etc etc etc...I have built a reputation of being able to treat cases such as this without sedation where it has always been reverted to in the past.....and no.....I dont use one leg hobbling. Just tried and tested appliance of pyscloglically sound techniques that others have not used.

Nobody has posted the video footage of the extreeme reaction rthe horse had to any attempt to put the bridle anywhere near his head. Major "breakthroughs" were made several times in touching his head, ears, mouth etc or placing a hand anywhere near his head. Its a pity that footage of this wasnt shown because you would see how extreme these reactions were. However, Pat Parelli has dealt with horses like this before.  

I have helped many head shy, bridle shy horses.....but not one as extreme as this.


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## LucyPriory (15 July 2010)

ponydentist said:



			elements of extreme resistance 
QUOTE]

Apologies - I am just being a dumb old non understanding middle aged amateur all over again (obviously).  But I don't get how you can be so experienced but not dealt with something like this?
		
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## Onyxia (15 July 2010)

Would you care to explain what Catwalks reaction was then?

I have helped a head shy horse.The people i was lucky enough to train with have helped extreme cases too as have many of the people you are intent on calling stupid and inexperianced on thsi forum-they don't think themselves special in some way and would always put what the horse needed above their own ego and desire to get the job done.
one of the horses came to the yard so frightened that he would attack you if he SAW the bridle in your hands.
We all worked through it-little  by little he became a horse happy with his bridle and that is the way to do it.
Granted,lacking in the drama PP demo's like but it worked and was fair to the horse.


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## baymareb (15 July 2010)

ponydentist said:



			I have helped many head shy, bridle shy horses.....but not one as extreme as this.
		
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So it seems like an incredibly poor subject for a public demo.  And choosing to use a horse that extreme for a public demo seems to negate your assertion that everything he did was for the good of the horse.


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## ponydentist (15 July 2010)

Munchkin said:



			ponydentist, you have an incredibly high opinion of yourself, don't you? I can see why you and Prat would get along.

Now, in my experience (which I know is of course pitiful compared to your Godly status), people who feel the need to tell everyone how wonderful they are, constantly, usually aren't.

I've had lessons with Chris and Jane too. And a few other very well thought of international riders and trainers.  My vet is one of the top vets in the country, I learn an awful lot from him, as he chooses to talk me through treatment and let me take over when I can. Nice to be trusted.  Do I think I know more about riding and veterinary care than everyone else on here? No. Do I think I have a lot to learn? Yes. 

Seen plenty of NH demos, including Prat's. Learnt some things at many of them, "banked" in case I ever come across a horse who requires another approach.  I can honestly say, hand on heart, that Prat Parelli is the only "NH" person who has failed to impress me. I have always found him and his followers somewhat amusing... or should that be bemusing?  Most of what all of these people demonstrate, however, is common sense.

Since Friday last week I've had a pony who wouldn't come near a human being (and would spin and kick out at a person who attempted to approach him in an enclosed space). He's now letting me climb all over him while he stands in the stable.  Am I a "natural horsewoman?" No, I just used my experience to deal with him and to be honest it wasn't rocket science.

I've competed in show jumping (mainly), showing, dressage and hunter trials. I hunt, had a crack at team chasing, I break my own horses in, I break other people's horses in, I reschool so-called problem horses.  

Do I think I know more than everyone here? No. Do I think I know more about some aspects of horsecare and riding than some here? Yes. Do I think some people here know more about some aspects of horsecare and riding than me? Yes.

Point of my post?

GET OVER YOURSELF.
		
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Great. Well done you. 

So what do you understand about the techniques and rationale and pyscology being used in this particular instance then ? Because thats what the issue is here . People are questioning the use of specific things here. The trainer knew why he was usingthem ...all Im asking is....does anyone else??

I dont claim to know more than anyone on here....i now more than some about those techniques....that all.....a lot have never even seen them before ...which I suspect is why they were upset or distressed by them?


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## Crazy Friesian (15 July 2010)

Looks like PP wasn't so clever about choosing his subject then. One he couldn't fix so quickly. Shame. People might start seeing the light... (can but hope)


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## ecarylloh (15 July 2010)

Oh dear, I fear PonyDentist may have undone all of TiC's good work. And Parelli people wonder why there's so much negative reaction to them...

Not knowing an awful lot about working with problem horses I was prepared to keep an open mind, despite being a bit shocked by what I saw on the videos. However, the persistent lack of any real answers from the Parelli supporters, other than arrogant claims that they are somehow "better" than non Parelli followers, has swayed me WAY more towards the anti-Parelli side of the fence. I have now set up a deck chair and brought lemonade with me. Looks like I'll be there for a while.

Way to go, PonyDentist & co.


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## Rhandir (15 July 2010)

Correct me if I'm wrong (I'm sure someone will ) but as far as I''m aware the methods used by Mr P were simply those used by the old time cowboys in the bad old days when horses were quite literally "broken". I believe that it was commonplace in those days to tie up a front leg to allow a rider to get on board, the horse obviously couldn't buck the rider off without falling to the ground itself (clever use of depriving it of fight or flight) and so "submitted" to the rider. After a suitable amount of time had passed the rope was removed and if all four feet stayed on the ground the horse was considered "broke".

The reason these methods were used were because the horses were wild and it was a quick way to get the job done, oh and because "it was the way my dad done it" I imagine that as Mr P rode the rodeo circuit he was well aware of these methods.

I like to think that the majority of todays horsemen/women are more enlighted and educated and would not resort to these "strong arm methods" as a quick fix, in my experience a quick fix comes equally quickly unfixed. I prefer time and patience myself, and my motto is "Quit while you are ahead"


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## martlin (15 July 2010)

ponydentist said:



			Great. Well done you. 

So what do you understand about the techniques and rationale and pyscology being used in this particular instance then ? Because thats what the issue is here . People are questioning the use of specific things here. The trainer knew why he was usingthem ...all Im asking is....does anyone else??

I dont claim to know more than anyone on here....i now more than some about those techniques....that all.....a lot have never even seen them before ...which I suspect is why they were upset or distressed by them?
		
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Well, you see, for me it's not an issue of understanding at all. I'm not even particularly interested why PP was using the techniques, or if they work. I simply disapprove of them and consider the use of them a bad judgement at best and unethical/abusive at worst.

I know very little about stoning for example, don't need to know much or why to disapprove of that


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## pippinpie (15 July 2010)

Please don't turn this into 'my dads bigger that your dad' debate, it had started to become a sensible debate after getting rid of the immature insulter's.


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## ponydentist (15 July 2010)

anima said:



			Would you care to explain what Catwalks reaction was then?

I have helped a head shy horse.The people i was lucky enough to train with have helped extreme cases too as have many of the people you are intent on calling stupid and inexperianced on thsi forum-they don't think themselves special in some way and would always put what the horse needed above their own ego and desire to get the job done.
one of the horses came to the yard so frightened that he would attack you if he SAW the bridle in your hands.
We all worked through it-little  by little he became a horse happy with his bridle and that is the way to do it.
Granted,lacking in the drama PP demo's like but it worked and was fair to the horse.
		
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No....it wasnt "the " way to do it....it was "a" way to do it...i agree totally. Well done those people.

Just as you assume i am calling people stupid....I have said no such thing...you are assuming what ever you want to assume. Many people on here are saying actually writing it....that Pat Parelli Abused the horse or was cruel....whats the difference. I have never told anyone ....put it in black and white ....at any point in this thread they are stupid or better or worse than anyone else.....but many have stated that pat Parelli abused a horse. How did he?


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## LucyPriory (15 July 2010)

PD - there's none so blind........


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## Munchkin (15 July 2010)

Oh please lose the "well done you" comment - I continue to gain experience because I am passionate about horses and enjoy being around them, not because I feel the need to impress anyone, unlike some. Which was my point... but of course you chose to ignore it.

You don't claim to know more than than anyone here? Please! You've accused anyone who disagrees with you of being uneducated and have suggested that people cannot become experienced with horses by owning, riding and spending time with them.  You have stated on more than one occasion how much experience YOU have, how fantastic people like Chris and Jane think YOU are, have repeatedly asked people for their credentials to prove that they are not entitled to an opinion (in your mind) however YOU are.

You have admitted to starting this thread to prove that anyone who disagrees with you "cannot see past the end of their noses."

I think we can conclude that you believe you are a better horseperson than anyone else here. 

To answer your question regarding the rationale and psychology behind what Prat was doing on Friday - I do understand, to a point. There were moments where I could see what he was trying (and failing) to achieve. And I haven't suggested it was abuse, however most of what he did goes against everything he preaches and no, I didn't like it. I don't have to like it just because it's Prat Sodding Parelli.




			EAR SHY? By Prat Parelli
Can you touch your husband's ears? What about your best friend's, your child's or your mother's?
If you couldn't then there's probably something wrong with the relationship! This is how I want you to think of your horse's so-called 'problem'. If he doesn't like his ears to be touched its because deep down inside, he does not trust you. There is a flaw in your relationship.
When I talk about the solution here I am going to give you the natural approach, the one that consider's the horse's point of view. To effect a 'cure' you have to gain his trust and permission. *The normal way is often to force the horse to accept it, twitch him, tie him, throw him&#8230;. In my mind (and in the horse's I'm sure) this is akin to rape and I won't use it.*
So to do it with the horse's permission may seem to take a little time, technique and knowledge, but if you do it right you won't have to do it over. . .
		
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Now please answer MY question. If the above is what Prat teaches/preaches, what was the purpose of the demo? To prove that he can get one over on any horse, using any method? It's certainly going against everything he supposedly stands for, wouldn't you agree?


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## Onyxia (16 July 2010)

ponydentist said:



			No....it wasnt "the " way to do it....it was "a" way to do it...i agree totally. Well done those people.
		
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They got their reward-the horses were happy and all went on to have usefull lives.
I am sure they and many more like them have helped an infinate number of other horses since my relocation.



ponydentist said:



			Just as you assume i am calling people stupid....I have said no such thing...you are assuming what ever you want to assume. Many people on here are saying actually writing it....that Pat Parelli Abused the horse or was cruel....whats the difference. I have never told anyone ....put it in black and white ....at any point in this thread they are stupid or better or worse than anyone else.....but many have stated that pat Parelli abused a horse. How did he?
		
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A poor choice of words perhaps. What you _have_ done in black and white(or black and beige in this case  ) is tell people your experiance is greater then theirs  which infers you are better,or at least better "qualified" to comment.
That is not a statement of fact,simply your opinion of yourself.
As Martlin said,you don't need to know the ins and outs of stoning to know it is wrong  and the fact that very few are happy about the horses treatment after watching the video(including other NH trainers) shows that to the majority it was wrong.
The nasty little sting in demoracy in that the maajority get to make the rules 

My opinion(and that of many others) is that PP's treatment of Catwalk at that time,in that place was abuse as defined by the Oxford dictionary.
The only remotly possable  way he could justify his actions are if Catwak was unbelivably violent when bridled which TBH I very much doubt given that RW grooms were able to bridle him before the demo,and it is a reasonable assumption that they are not all in ICU.
So I will ask again- what was catwalks "extreme but not that extreme reaction to the bridle?
in other words,what did he do that made him a danger to the person trying to put the bridle on him?


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## Caledonia (16 July 2010)

So PD, just to clarify; 
You don't believe that was an abusive (forceful restraint and injury) way to solve a fear problem with that horse? 
Do you think that was a demonstration to show how to treat a horse with that kind of problem, and as a recommendation of that methodology??


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## Natch (16 July 2010)

You know, I just can't get a sodding response to my post.

Possibly because nobody objects to it?

Sigh.


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## Onyxia (16 July 2010)

Naturally said:



			You know, I just can't get a sodding response to my post.

Possibly because nobody objects to it?

Sigh.
		
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Nooo,it is because it has clear cut questions that require clear cut answers


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## martlin (16 July 2010)

Naturally said:



			You know, I just can't get a sodding response to my post.

Possibly because nobody objects to it?

Sigh.
		
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Neither can I really...


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## martlin (16 July 2010)

Naturally, can I ask you a question? Well, I'll ask anyway...

As I've gathered you dab in NH, so thought you'll be qualified to tell me:

Do you really, truly believe that your horse thinks you are another horse?


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## LucyPriory (16 July 2010)

martlin said:



			Naturally, can I ask you a question? Well, I'll ask anyway...

As I've gathered you dab in NH, so thought you'll be qualified to tell me:

Do you really, truly believe that your horse thinks you are another horse?
		
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Ha ha ha - sorry even at this late hour (gone midnight) that made me smile.

When I work with horses some of them nibble my hair.  Does that mean they think I am a haystack?

And do people really under estimate horses so much?  I doubt there is much evidence to suggest that they can't tell the difference between their own species and others.

They are however generally good at reading body language.

The guy that is helping me work with my girl can send her in all directions just with a look and a nod of his head.


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## Gingersmom (16 July 2010)

Monsters said:



			Disgusting!!!! Horse abuse I would say and people actually use and believe in this it's scary. Parelli followers where are you...????? Explain?  Pat and linda seriously need to stop working with horses and taking gulable people in.
		
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What other kind could they possibly take in?


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## pippinpie (16 July 2010)

Gingersmom said:



			What other kind could they possibly take in?

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Oh noooooo not more sarky one liners please


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## martlin (16 July 2010)

LucyPriory said:



			Ha ha ha - sorry even at this late hour (gone midnight) that made me smile.

When I work with horses some of them nibble my hair.  Does that mean they think I am a haystack?

And do people really under estimate horses so much?  I doubt there is much evidence to suggest that they can't tell the difference between their own species and others.

They are however generally good at reading body language.

The guy that is helping me work with my girl can send her in all directions just with a look and a nod of his head.
		
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Oh, I know they read the body language, but that's 2 different things, isn't it?
Mine are very good linguists as well - when I start swearing in my native language, they know straight away that they've crossed the line


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## LucyPriory (16 July 2010)

Ah - I use my own brand of fake russian - does just as well


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## Onyxia (16 July 2010)

It is definatly a supernatural understanding of us,and not the pi55ed off tones we use when stupidly annoyed by a hoof resting on our toes


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## martlin (16 July 2010)

anima said:



			It is definatly a supernatural understanding of us,and not the pi55ed off tones we use when stupidly annoyed by a hoof resting on our toes 

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But you see, when I swear in English they don't react at all


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## Onyxia (16 July 2010)

martlin said:



			But you see, when I swear in English they don't react at all

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Clearly you abise their ears so much they are dead to your boring English swearing!


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## martlin (16 July 2010)

anima said:



			Clearly you abise their ears so much they are dead to your boring English swearing!  
	
	
		
		
	


	




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Do you think that classes as learned helplessness? (see what I did here, I'm learning the lingo now)


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## Onyxia (16 July 2010)

martlin said:



			Do you think that classes as learned helplessness? (see what I did here, I'm learning the lingo now)
		
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I would tell you,but you could nto possably understand without buying my DVD.

I am sure after sitting through an hour of my son and his class ahm"singing" at the school nativity you would be able to understand why your horse might choose to shut down his left brain to save himself


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## martlin (16 July 2010)

anima said:



			I would tell you,but you could nto possably understand without buying my DVD.

I am sure after sitting through an hour of my son and his class ahm"singing" at the school nativity you would be able to understand why your horse might choose to shut down his left brain to save himself  
	
	
		
		
	


	




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Where do I send the money? Or do I just give you my credit card details?
I'll have 10 of them DVD's, please.


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## Ghazzu (16 July 2010)

ponydentist said:



			How many of you have ever watched Ceaser Millan.....the dog whisperer??/


Who has ever seen him take a dog which will not back down and put it on its back in a submissive posture and place his fingers into its throat and hold it there for a time??? CRuel man......hes Abusing that dog.......report him ..

.
		
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He is abusive.
Or don't you think the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior has any credibility?


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## Ghazzu (16 July 2010)

SirenaXVI said:



			My point was that the girls used lies together with smoke and mirrors to get their own way - a little like Mr P, not that I am for a moment insinuating the murder bit!  In any case the girls did not commit the burnings, they did, however engineer them.
		
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none of the Salem "witches" were burned.
Most were hanged; one was pressed to death with heavy stones.


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## 7HL (16 July 2010)

....


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## 7HL (16 July 2010)

It seems that many of you condone Fox Hunting. And your stance on slaughter? What about wild horses? Of course you are all against metal of any kind on a horse, shoes, bits etc?

How many PETA members posting here?


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## baymareb (16 July 2010)

7HL said:



_*So how many posting here are PETA members?*_

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Oh, goody!  Non sequiturs!


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## baymareb (16 July 2010)

7HL said:



			It seems that many of you condone Fox Hunting. And your stance on slaughter? What about wild horses? Of course you are all against metal of any kind on a horse, shoes, bits etc?

How many PETA members posting here?
		
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I'm utterly mystified as to what that has to do with anything in this thread.


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## 7HL (16 July 2010)

baymareb said:



			Oh, goody!  Non sequiturs!
		
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Good, you see the humor.


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## 7HL (16 July 2010)

baymareb said:



			I'm utterly mystified as to what that has to do with anything in this thread.
		
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They seem to be fixated on what they believe is abuse. So what will those, who seem to be making accusations of abuse based on clips of videos, except? 

I believe that most post on here have an agenda. They were not even at the demo and are repeating things second hand.


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## baymareb (16 July 2010)

But what do fox hunting, slaughter, wild horses, metal and PETA have to do with it?  

Are you saying that if a person puts shoes on their horses, they have no business complaining about abuse?  Or if they are not a member of PETA, the same?  What does anyone's opinion about any of those things have to do with what happened at this demo event?

People may be repeating things at second hand but they are making judgments based on the video which shows some questionable treatment, from the testimony of eyewitnesses who were upset, from the statement of the BHS that said Catwalk was injured and from the silence from the Parelli camp in regards to any explanation (beyond the patronizing remark that people were upset by what they *thought* they saw.

I think the only agenda here is to point out that something happened that a lot of people think was wrong.

What's your agenda?


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## 7HL (16 July 2010)

baymareb said:



			...
People may be repeating things at second hand but they are making judgments based on the video which shows some questionable treatment, from the testimony of eyewitnesses who were upset, from the statement of the BHS that said Catwalk was injured and from the silence from the Parelli camp in regards to any explanation ...


I think the only agenda here is to point out that something happened that a lot of people think was wrong.

What's your agenda?
		
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I know your agenda was to come here to post in this thread, you stated as much in your first post. It appears that your only reason was to add fuel to some anti-Parelli posts.

The only persons statement the counts at this time is Mr Whittaker's and the Vet that was present. And they haven't made one yet! They also don't owe you or anyone any explanation.

Second hand and fabricated accounts of what happened are not fact.

You ask what does all of the other things have to do with the Demo? I believe that we should know who is making the accusations and what their agenda is. There seems to be some hypocrisy here.


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## missyme10 (16 July 2010)

7HL said:



			It seems that many of you condone Fox Hunting. And your stance on slaughter? What about wild horses? Of course you are all against metal of any kind on a horse, shoes, bits etc?

How many PETA members posting here?
		
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This is a poor attempt to distract from the point !!!

I have watched the video and am appalled at what I saw. Previously to watching this, I thought parelli was a good thing, but this video and one of his missus repeatedly whipping a horse for god only knows what reason has now changed my opinion.
Its horse abuse in my opinion - which I am entitled to regardless of my view on other issues!

As for asking how many PETA members are there posting here? haha
Whether members or not, they are still entitled to their opinion !


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## baymareb (16 July 2010)

I think there's a lot of hypocrisy going around - won't argue with you there.  I think a good deal of it comes from the Parelli people. And yes, I did join the forum specifically to comment in this thread - I don't feel any need to hide that though I don't think stating my opinion on the Parelli method is "fanning the flames" of anything.  Nor is it an "agenda."  It's just joining the discussion.

I guess you could say my agenda was to join the discussion.


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## 7HL (16 July 2010)

baymareb said:



			I think there's a lot of hypocrisy going around - won't argue with you there.  I think a good deal of it comes from the Parelli people.
		
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Were is the hypocrisy?

It's hot hypocritical to have a difference in opinion. Since most people in this thread were not even there, all it is, is opinion.

Pony Dentist who was there and saw the demo in it's entirety gets ridiculed for posting what he and his wife saw.

I haven't heard Mr Whittaker claim his horse was abused. While it might be nice if he said something, he doesn't owe anyone any explanation.

As long as people have an agenda this thread will go on and on. But it serves no purpose but to let the anti-Parelli crowd, gripe and complain.


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## baymareb (16 July 2010)

7HL said:



			Were is the hypocrisy?
		
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The hypocrisy comes from telling people they have a better way to train and that they don't believe in dominating and using mechanical means and then resorting to them for hours on this horse.





7HL said:



			As long as people have an agenda this thread will go on and on. But it serves no purpose but to let the anti-Parelli crowd, gripe and complain.
		
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Then why are you bumping it up over and over?


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## 7HL (16 July 2010)

baymareb said:



			The hypocrisy comes from telling people they have a better way to train and that they don't believe in dominating and using mechanical means and then resorting to them for hours on this horse.
		
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That's not what this thread was started about. No one is saying "better". Pat freely admits that the methods he uses are from others. While you may have run into someone that says it the only way to train. Most following Parelli chose to show by example. 

There are many out there that have their favorite trainer and method. Many of the trainers in the US probably would translate well elsewhere but that doesn't mean their methods are wrong.

I'll let you get the last word in here because that seems to be your concern. You keep kissing up here and telling them how much you are like them because you where raised in New England. I am sure they are buying that.


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## baymareb (16 July 2010)

7HL said:



			You keep kissing up here and telling them how much you are like them because you where raised in New England. I am sure they are buying that. 

Click to expand...

lol  "keep telling them."  Yes, that's what I'm doing - I must have mentioned it a dozen or more times.  Oh, wait, it was once - to point out that not all Americans come from the wild west.  And who is "they?"  

Never mind - you're letting me have the last word.  How gallant!


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## Amymay (16 July 2010)

PPF&Proud said:



			What's with the poltergeist reference?

More like salem witch-hunt!
		
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I honestly can't see that this post has become a witch hunt.  Just a discussion between a bunch of people who are shocked at what they saw, and the descriptions given vs one or two of you who are not shocked.  Most of us are really struggling to understand what was trying to be achieved, and why PP went so far left of what he aspouses to be his way of doing things.

Rather than comming on here and throwing around accusations of witch hunts and slander (there has been none, perhaps conflicting information from RW and those that were actually there.....) why not try to explain to people what exactly was supposed to be happening - and why it was supposed to work..........


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## brighteyes (16 July 2010)

I'm not sure why RW's statement is more valid than that of ponydentist (or his wife) as the latter both watched the demo from start to finish.  The vet, I presume, was called in afterwards.  Robert may have watched it all, that seems unclear, but there were a couple of others on this thread who were, for at least some of the time, in the audience.  Their reports also need consideration.

I am certain that neither of the videos showing footage of PP and Catwalk are helpful in deciding whether what occurred on Friday evening was inhumane, unnecessary or even produced a successful outcome in terms of the objective of the session.

The horse was further worked on during the following day, behind the scenes so to speak, but not behind closed doors, as there was a witness to this (unbeknowns to PP anyway) for some while.  I would imagine a vet would have been notified about that.

As yet, I'm not too uncomfortable with what went on because it is all second hand to me and the videos twisted it in different directions. The OP was   
just wondering if anyone else watched the demo and would like to comment.  It was further qualified with  Open minds only please for sensible discussion.  which in places has been overlooked as personal views about PNH have overwhelmed some people's objectivity.

I am *still* waiting for the 'no holds barred', fully-narrated, close up and personal _entire_ footage before I make MY mind up.  I am perfectly capable of doing this without biased reports irrelevant anecdotes, personal differences with PP/NH, pure speculation, rumour and everything else. 

I'm sure the OP would allow me to differ, if the conclusions I reach are not in accordance with his own views, as I will discuss it sensibly without going off on crazy tangents.


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## brighteyes (16 July 2010)

amymay said:



			I honestly can't see that this post has become a witch hunt.  Just a discussion between a bunch of people who are shocked at what they saw, and the descriptions given vs one or two of you who are not shocked.  Most of us are really struggling to understand what was trying to be achieved, and why PP went so far left of what he aspouses to be his way of doing things.

Rather than comming on here and throwing around accusations of witch hunts and slander (there has been none, perhaps conflicting information from RW and those that were actually there.....) why not try to explain to people what exactly was supposed to be happening - and why it was supposed to work..........

Click to expand...

I have already had this discussion and although I would STILL like to see an unexpurgated edition of the whole thing, I am fully prepared to try and see what was intended, although wouldn't make any promises not to be uneasy or against any one part of it, have a positive feeling about it as a whole nor expect a positive outcome.  This is simply because the extent of the damage done previously and this horse's personality etc are unknown factors.

But I am not going to condemn it out of hand.

Ponydentist is a bit rubbish at putting things down on paper and I can see he's getting frustrated.  Thankfully, he has the patience of a saint with horses...


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## Amymay (16 July 2010)

By JHL:  Pony Dentist who was there and saw the demo in it's entirety gets ridiculed for posting what he and his wife saw.
		
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Not sure he's been ridiculed - just questioned.  He was not the only person who was there who has commented on this thread..............


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## vandypip (16 July 2010)

All this left brain, right brain stuff is very interesting. Perhaps practitioners should examine their own particular mindsets before operating and considering whether their own behavioural characteristics are symptomatic with each individual equine.


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## Crackerz (16 July 2010)

Urgghhh, i got a bit of bile rise in my throat reading the past 10 pages that i was behind on.

2 of my very close friends were there, who's opinions always mirror my own. Thier account of it, and the short clips i've seen, imo, allow me to comment as i already have in this post. 

I have a rig and a stallion at the yard, who live together. The rig is very dominant, always has been. But never, ever dominant to a human. The stallion is much younger, and although is submissive, doesn't get 'walked' over by the rig. I've spent 13years working with the rig. He was a 6yold when i got him on my 13th birthday, unbroken. You can appreciate the hard work, effort and understanding that i went through to get him broken, out competing and winning when i was that young. Any bullying would have resulted in me probably ending up in hospital. Everything was done sympathetically and carefully, whilst not faffing. I can do anything with him, he dotes on me, he's my shadow and i'm his 'leader' so to speak, but he retains his character. 

I've spent endless hours just sat in the field watching these 2 ponies interact, how much differently they interact together than my geldings & mares. Identifying what makes them tick, what tips them over the edge, how they react when they put one another under pressure etc.

I could wind the rig up to the point he'd over-react and hurt me, i know how his mind works. I like that, i like the fact he hasn't lost his heart, soul and everything about him. I like he retains it all but chooses not to use it against me. It's his spirit and i'd never ever take that away from him, or any other horse.


I once had a TB that didn't make the grade in the racing industry. When i brought her into work, she would throw herself around at the sight of a bridle, double barrel at me and white eyes would be apparent. After a full vet check, and getting the news that it was all 'in her mind' i started work. 
Would i ever have expected her to 'be cured' in a demo, with floodlights and loads of people watching? No. I'd NEVER have inflicted such thing on her. 10 weeks it took, from trying to floor me (well, the bridle) to allowing the bridle on in her terms, and the most restraint used was someone holding her to stop her whipping round to buck at me.
She's the most extreme horse i've worked with, handling wise, but not the only problem horse i've come across.

I'm not a miracle worker by all means, never claimed to be, never will be. But i know for a fact, that the 'intelligent' man that PP is, he should have stopped the demo when he realised how difficult it was going to be.

My slightly rambling, slightly off topic post's point is, PD, not everyone is narrow minded, or sells on a difficult horse, or results to violence. There are plenty of people who choose to sort the problems, successfully, with or without help. To say people that disagree with Fridays demo are 'stuck in their own little worlds' is very patronising! 

I've seen some terrible sights in my mere 20 years of horse ownership, and no doubt you've seen alot more. But that doesn't give you the right to be so patronising


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## Natch (16 July 2010)

martlin said:



			Naturally, can I ask you a question? Well, I'll ask anyway...

As I've gathered you dab in NH, so thought you'll be qualified to tell me:

Do you really, truly believe that your horse thinks you are another horse?
		
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Lol!  No-ooooo I don't. I just think that we're trying to train 1/2 a ton of muscle, and its a good idea to try to make that as easy for the 1/2 ton of muscle as possible by trying to make our training language as easy to understand as possible for them. 

Incidentaly I think the whole NH and all the other approaches are incredibly flawed. Since when does a horse in the wild move away when you put pressure on their skin? Body language pressure from a herd leader or bully, yes, but for the skin we have to teach the horse that, as their nautral reaction is to push back.


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## martlin (16 July 2010)

7HL, I'm slightly disappointed with you, we had a decent discussion going, then you swan in and bring up a ridiculous argument
Believe me, not everybody here is 'upset' and 'distressed' by PP conduct.
I for one, think it was wrong at many levels, I don't want to bring the word abuse into it - that seems to be open to interpretation.
I think it was wrong, regardless of the horse being injured or not, bad taste, bad judgement, even unethical and certainly hypocritical.
Both PP and RW have certain level of responsibility to the public - it was a public demo and as such has been 'judged' and people are entitled to explanation.

PS. Will somebody from the NH (broadly speaking) crowd answer my question, please? It was a serious question, I really would like to know if you truly believe that your horse sees you as another horse...


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## siennamum (16 July 2010)

I really like your reply Crackerz & really like your description of your relationship with your horses. I think mine is like that. Sometimes my older mare has a bit of a laugh at my expense and I rarely sanction anything she does any more. She has earned the right to make many of her own decisions - they are almost always right.

When she is approached by one of her friendly people, she doesn't go glazed over and stand a respectful distance away. Instead she often hooks her nose around you and requests a mutual grooming session. She will sniff and lick your face & neck and I grab the opportunity to kiss her on the muzzle. Her body language is completely at odds with anything I see from Parelli trained horses, that itself makes me suspicious of the relationships these people have with their horses. My mare will compete successfully in any discipline to the very best of her abilities, and tries her heart out for her rider btw, she is alo a wonderful schoolmistress & would carry a toddler down the M4 in complete safety. I wouldn't humiliate her by making her do tricks tho.

I have a young, colty, gelding. He is very concerned if you so much as look at his legs, especially that special spot above the knee on his front legs, and I'm well aware why Ponydentist.

I could probably have forced him to submit to me & he is very responsive to dominance & submission games. I can't really be bothered tho. He will learn in time, what is expected of him and will end up as happy to be around people as the mare. I just think he has to arrive at that understanding in his own time. If I wanted to demand he does as I say and accept my absolute authority I could probs adopt an approach like PP's and get him there in a week. I am old fashioned tho and think horses have the right to some self respect and to make their own decisions, it makes them better at their jobs.


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## Natch (16 July 2010)

martlin said:



			PS. Will somebody from the NH (broadly speaking) crowd answer my question, please? It was a serious question, I really would like to know if you truly believe that your horse sees you as another horse...
		
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See above  No, I don't think the majority of people who practice NH believe that they can hoodwink their horse into thinking they are another horse.


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## martlin (16 July 2010)

Naturally said:



			Lol!  No-ooooo I don't. I just think that we're trying to train 1/2 a ton of muscle, and its a good idea to try to make that as easy for the 1/2 ton of muscle as possible by trying to make our training language as easy to understand as possible for them. 

Incidentaly I think the whole NH and all the other approaches are incredibly flawed. Since when does a horse in the wild move away when you put pressure on their skin? Body language pressure from a herd leader or bully, yes, but for the skin we have to teach the horse that, as their nautral reaction is to push back. 

Click to expand...

Thanks
I generally agree with your sentiments, just was checking if I got it right, as there are so many references to natural behaviour between horses etc.

For me, the alfa horse impersonation is very flawed indeed:
for starters, we want to be the leader at all times, don't want are leadership disputed periodically.
I, for one, want my horses to behave for any human, not just me as their alfa If they believed I'm part of the heard (even alfa), then my new groom, introduced to the heard, would be put at the bottom of the pecking order - no good I'm afraid!
thus I teach them to stick their head in a headcollar and follow whatever/whoever is at the end of the leadrope without standing on them


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## Sarah1 (16 July 2010)

Ponydentist - ok you win, you're wonderful, PP is god and the rest of us should bow down to your superior knowledge & expertise & perhaps even just hand our horses over to you before we ruin them...now go away...you're boring me...


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## siennamum (16 July 2010)

martlin said:



			Thanks
I generally agree with your sentiments, just was checking if I got it right, as there are so many references to natural behaviour between horses etc.

For me, the alfa horse impersonation is very flawed indeed:
for starters, we want to be the leader at all times, don't want are leadership disputed periodically.
I, for one, want my horses to behave for any human, not just me as their alfa If they believed I'm part of the heard (even alfa), then my new groom, introduced to the heard, would be put at the bottom of the pecking order - no good I'm afraid!
thus I teach them to stick their head in a headcollar and follow whatever/whoever is at the end of the leadrope without standing on them

Click to expand...

I agree. I like to think I have ultimate authority. I would need to for safety's sake, but believe that the glue that binds horses & people is based more on a theory of friendship and respect which is earned by making a series of good decisions. I have read some Lucy Rees and unless I'm very much mistaken that is her thinking and makes lots of sense.

When I go and move my electric fence for the horses who are being strip grazed, and they see me as the leader who knows where the good food is, that is more of a reinforcer than any amount of bullying.


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## Natch (16 July 2010)

martlin said:



			Thanks
I generally agree with your sentiments, just was checking if I got it right, as there are so many references to natural behaviour between horses etc.

For me, the alfa horse impersonation is very flawed indeed:
for starters, we want to be the leader at all times, don't want are leadership disputed periodically.
I, for one, want my horses to behave for any human, not just me as their alfa If they believed I'm part of the heard (even alfa), then my new groom, introduced to the heard, would be put at the bottom of the pecking order - no good I'm afraid!
thus I teach them to stick their head in a headcollar and follow whatever/whoever is at the end of the leadrope without standing on them

Click to expand...

I agree with you.

I don't know any NH people who don't want their horse to be easy to handle with all people. I know a few traditional people who do...   (hastily adds this is the minority on some ego trip)

I also think that horses suss out the new groom themselves, regardless of how they are trained. Correction: Its usually ponies, the horses I know are on the whole a dream to handle


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## Natch (16 July 2010)

siennamum said:



			When I go and move my electric fence for the horses who are being strip grazed, and they see me as the leader who knows where the good food is, that is more of a reinforcer than any amount of bullying.
		
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Sorry, just had a chuckle to myself over this  When I  move elec fences back I always have the distinct impression that the horses are more of the opinion that I am a horrible opressor who starves them nearly to death all day long, and the only way they hang on to life is because we feed them _just_ enough to keep them going, hence why they are always so starving and eager to get at the new grass ... 

*tootles off to work, wondering if this means I have a mental attitude problem and should see the glass as half full more often... *


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## siennamum (16 July 2010)

Naturally said:



			Sorry, just had a chuckle to myself over this  When I  move elec fences back I always have the distinct impression that the horses are more of the opinion that I am a horrible opressor who starves them nearly to death all day long, and the only way they hang on to life is because we feed them _just_ enough to keep them going, hence why they are always so starving and eager to get at the new grass ... 

*tootles off to work, wondering if this means I have a mental attitude problem and should see the glass as half full more often... *
		
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I think that attitude is completely disgraceful tbh and you should hang up your 12 ft line in shame. By admitting this you have completely denied all assertions that horses are robotic in their reactions and have gone so far as to think they may not all fit into clearly defined types. If you keep up this shocking laissez faire thinking you'll be saying next that they have personalities.


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## Shysmum (16 July 2010)

check out the thread "An invitation to RW " , a video by Chris Irwin.


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## martlin (16 July 2010)

siennamum said:



			I agree. I like to think I have ultimate authority. I would need to for safety's sake, but believe that the glue that binds horses & people is based more on a theory of friendship and respect which is earned by making a series of good decisions. I have read some Lucy Rees and unless I'm very much mistaken that is her thinking and makes lots of sense.

When I go and move my electric fence for the horses who are being strip grazed, and they see me as the leader who knows where the good food is, that is more of a reinforcer than any amount of bullying.
		
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I think mine just put up with me
I make their life easy - ask questions they can answer and make the right solution easy and apparent I don't get angry - which doesn't mean I don't punish...
I tend to work around certain issues rather than confront everything head on, that's why, among other things, I thought that Catwalk's treatment was disgraceful.


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## Shysmum (16 July 2010)

I have "the look" that seems to work quite well....is that a good thing ??


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## meandmyself (16 July 2010)

shysmum said:



			check out the thread "An invitation to RW " , a video by Chris Irwin. 

Click to expand...

I find him quite creepy... and that video is just a blatant attempt to cash in on the scandal.


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## maybedaisy (16 July 2010)

I haven't read all the responses so apologies if I am duplicating what has already been said. I worked with a gelding who was difficult to bridle. We used a bridle with bit clips so we could put the headpiece over his ears then attach the bit.

Someone at the yard decided that the horse was being naughty and attempted to teach him using force and a rope around his leg to accept the bridle. Their reasoning being that it needed to hurt when he didn't accept the bridle so the he would.

Needless to say all that happened was that this person and the other person in there with them got squashed against the stable wall. Luckily this was a generally kind horse who wouldn't deliberately hurt you.

I had to intervene although he wasn't mine before the individual truly lost his temper. After doing some research it transpired that the horse had painful aural plaques in his ears. They don't affect all horses. I bought some cream on the internet and although it was hard to get in at first after two weeks I was applying it without a headcollar.

Although he was never perfect with the bridle he certainly improved a lot.

I can't see how the methods employed by the P's could have any long term beneficial effect unless what you wanted was a horse that was frightened of coming into an arena.


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## MontyandZoom (16 July 2010)

martlin said:



			I think mine just put up with me
I make their life easy - ask questions they can answer and make the right solution easy and apparent I don't get angry - which doesn't mean I don't punish...
I tend to work around certain issues rather than confront everything head on, that's why, among other things, I thought that Catwalk's treatment was disgraceful.
		
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Zoomy is generally a really good girl and tries hard to please......she's very sensitive though. The only thing she gets told off for is rearing. She doesn't go right up and it is usually her way of saying 'I don't understand!' but it's not acceptable.

She has a big scar on her ears and is a bit funny about me touching them sometimes (eg trimming). So I simply don't trim her ears!!!!!! SIMPLES! 

When she had fly bites in her ears and they needed to be cleaned, I twitched her, she fell asleep and cleaned them and then gave her a carrot.

My friends horse was horrible to bridle. We used to just take the bridle apart, slip it over his head and then slip the bit in. It wasn't massively ideal but he accepted that way of bridling without distress so it seemed silly to try and force him to have it on any other way!

I don't really understand why there is ever any need to pull a horse to the ground and cause him distress, when the issue can be worked around with little distress to horse or handler??


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## leogeorge (16 July 2010)

Can the person (chris something) who said that Catwalk is fine, riding out everyday etc, please answer the question that was asked.....How are they getting Catwalks bridle on? 

Thanks


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## PaddyMonty (16 July 2010)

ponydentist said:



			So what do you understand about the techniques and rationale and pyscology being used in this particular instance then ?
		
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*Technique* = deprive horse of both fight and flight options for long enough in the belief that it will eventually shut down.
*Rationale* - I am god and my minions must continue to believe so.
*Pyscology* - Win at any cost.  Any method used can be explained away later to the believers.  The heathens dont matter.


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## Katikins (16 July 2010)

How many PETA members posting here?
		
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!  We now talking about the charity who believes that no animals should be pets and if you hand in a stray at their centres they would rather put it down than rehome it?  Yes, I'm sure people on here who do horrible evil things like, OMG, sit on a horse!! would be members of that kind of charity.

Sorry, that made me chuckle rather a lot


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## vandypip (16 July 2010)

This thread really ought to wrap up now. Nobody is really interested. Parelli made a big mistake and linda's violence is evident in video posted on you tube. Just don't pay for it!!


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## Shaklana (16 July 2010)

I think we need to be realistic here about what constitute's 'cruelty' in the eyes of the law.

If you could be prosecuted for restraining a horse by a limb, why not by head, mouth(via reins & bit) or nose?

Likewise, if you could be prosecuted for tack causing a minor lesion on the horse, a lot of us would be very worried - my own horse has a small girth gall AND a rub from a brushing boot currently!

It boils down to you either would or wouldn't apply these techniques to your horse. Nothing more. Chillax!


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## brighteyes (16 July 2010)

leogeorge said:



			Can the person (chris something) who said that Catwalk is fine, riding out everyday etc, please answer the question that was asked.....How are they getting Catwalks bridle on? 

Thanks
		
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Saves me the bother of a trawl as it seems no answer has yet been given...

Disappointing.


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## Graureiter (16 July 2010)

martlin said:



			snip,
*Believe me, not everybody here is 'upset' and 'distressed' by PP conduct.**I for one, think it was wrong at many levels, I don't want to bring the word abuse into it - that seems to be open to interpretation.
I think it was wrong, regardless of the horse being injured or not, bad taste, bad judgement, even unethical and certainly hypocritical.
Both PP and RW have certain level of responsibility to the public - it was a public demo and as such has been 'judged' and people are entitled to explanation.*
Snip.
		
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That pretty much sums up my thinking on this .

PS.  Concerning language: I have been known to tell my Greyhounds to " Whoa!" and my horse to "Stay!", using the same handsignals .


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## Sandstone1 (16 July 2010)

ponydentist said:



			How many of you have ever watched Ceaser Millan.....the dog whisperer??/


Who has ever seen him take a dog which will not back down and put it on its back in a submissive posture and place his fingers into its throat and hold it there for a time??? CRuel man......hes Abusing that dog.......report him ..

Who says that Catwalks leg was hobbled above the knee as a restraint??? restraint for what?? at NO TIME during the short moments that the leg was temporarily incapacitated in this manner was any attempt made to put a bridle or anything else on the horse. the trainer stood back from the horse....gave him time to adjust to the situation which he did without ANY stress, fear or anxiety (he lowered the held up leg to the floor for a split second. In his mind the leg was gone or totally useless and that was it....accepted end of.....when the trainer realised that the horse had acceoted this....hey resto he flipped a rope and the horse had his leg given back to him....can anyone see the pyscology involved??? How was this seen as RESTRAINT....restraing to do WHAT?? it wasnt done in that context.....this was a master horseman using techniques with well grounded and researched methodology to ask a horse to start thinking in its limted capacity to think. Remember horses live totally in the here and now....they have no forward thought...but do have excellent long and short term memory processing ability.They have to learn much quicker than a lot of animals....or die. Any lights comming on yet?? 

Other use of the rope during other parts of the demo were also thought provoking tried and tested and sucessfull methods which cause absolute minimum impact to the horse welfare.
		
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Sorry, but the dog whisperer is not a great example to use!  his methods are old fashioned and outdated and in some cases abuse. I have read posts in the dog section about him and know some people her think highly of him, but I dont. IMO, him and PP are the same type.


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## AengusOg (16 July 2010)

Originally Posted by ponydentist  
You have seen a few different horsemen then .....some of who use "NH" some of who dont....Gawani Pony boy......( the jewish guy who poses as a native American)....hmmmmm.

Is that the same as an old horse-wrangler posing as the Messiah?


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## zareeba (16 July 2010)

ponydentist said:



			How many of you have ever watched stallions fight when fighting for supremacy?? What do they try to to do to each others legs??/ in particular the foreleg?? What is the thing a horse treasures most (body part) and what part of the body are horse most reluctant to let anyone or anything touch, handle or incapcitate???? Are we getting there yet anyone???? Any lights comming on in empty heads??/
		
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So if I (in my empty-headedness LOL) interpret what you are saying correctly, PP was trying to behave towards this stallion in the same way as another stallion would during a fight (i.e. by incapacitating the forelegs, although that's actually more common among asses than Equus caballus - the latter are more likely to rear in an attempt to knock the rival over - and that's usually during less serious fighting. In really serious fights biting at the head and neck, or attempting to kick the rival's head, are more common.). Do you really think this would be sensible behaviour (assuming, that is, that the horse understood it in horse terms, not just as a two-legged thing trying to incapacitate him)? If the stallion did understand PP's behaviour in horse terms, what do you think he would do? If he was an exceptionally well-behaved (or naive) stallion, he might react as Catwalk did - and PP would be damned lucky (as he was with Catwalk). If he tried it with a less tolerant stallion, he might well be toast. I don't care how 'alpha' (a bogus concept if ever there was one) PP thinks he can make himself, he can't take on a full-grown, mature stallion like that and expect to win.  As it was, Catwalk did rear to try to get away, but that's just what any self-respecting horse would do in that situation.

Both our stallions are  sweet-natured, well-behaved boys, who are a dream to handle; but I tell you what: if anyone did to either of them what PP did to Catwalk, he'd end up splattered all over the yard. And I wouldn't blame the stallion one bit. 

No wonder PP has such a negative 'take' on stallions: his ideas about them (as well as the whole alpha-dominance nonsense) are not just half-baked, they aren't even in the oven.


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## Shysmum (16 July 2010)

I feel this thread should only wrap up when we have the answers we are all looking for ;

- an outcome from the BHS
- an outcome from the RSPCA
- a statement from Robert Whitaker
- a statement from Pat Parelli
- possible proceedings under the Animal Welfare Act 1996

This was a serious incident, and I feel we owe it to the horse world to chase this up, if only to prevent it from happening in the UK again. Until we know what is/isn't being done, a lot of people will still be very uneasy. 

sm x


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## mtj (16 July 2010)

Total agreement with Shysmum.


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## Tinypony (16 July 2010)

Chris Irwin has posted an invitation to Robert Whittaker on You Tube, he will fly to the UK at his own expense to work kindly with Catwalk on this problem.
People are slating him as publicity-seeking, but he is a man who is secure in his success and he really wouldn't need to stoop to stunts, he has already made his name.  I think someone who knows Robert should direct him to that and take Chris up on the offer.
Sadly though, by now Catwalk is probably "accepting" being bridled, as he was already showing signs of shutting down in the video taken after the main demo.
For me this is not about whether the treatment Catwalk got worked or not, eventually it will.  It's about how much violent treatment of a horse is justified and using the kindest and fairest approach to help a horse over their problems.  This was neither kind or fair.  (And should be a warning to all to never leave their horse in the hands of Pat Parelli).


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## mtj (16 July 2010)

Hmm.  I've seen that second Stoneleigh video.

I found Catwalk's change in behaviour disingenuous.  Curious whether PP would be able to emulate that at an affiliated event.


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## Tinypony (16 July 2010)

How can a horse's behaviour be disingenous (lacking in frankness, candor, or sincerity; falsely or hypocritically ingenuous; insincere).  With horses what you see is what you get.  Bit confused by that post.


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## teddyt (16 July 2010)

If someone posted on here -'Help, i have just bought a seriously head shy horse, how do i get his bridle on?' Which would be the best approach-

1) Put the horse in a large arena. Surround the arena by people coughing, talking and taking photos. Boom music out over the loud speakers. Run a rope under the lip, ensuring you draw blood. Wrap a rope around the horses front leg and get a couple of people to hold on tight. Make sure you pull harder when the horse reverses to get away. Carry on for at least 2 hours.

OR

2) Is there another way? 

No 2 may not make as much money as no 1. No 2 may also take more time. No 2 wont be as sensational, nor as romantic or theatrical without the music. No 2 wont massage the ego very much.

No 1 it is then!


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## Renvers (16 July 2010)

teddyt said:



			If someone posted on here -'Help, i have just bought a seriously head shy horse, how do i get his bridle on?' Which would be the best approach-

1) Put the horse in a large arena. Surround the arena by people coughing, talking and taking photos. Boom music out over the loud speakers. Run a rope under the lip, ensuring you draw blood. Wrap a rope around the horses front leg and get a couple of people to hold on tight. Make sure you pull harder when the horse reverses to get away. Carry on for at least 2 hours.

OR

2) Is there another way? 

No 2 may not make as much money as no 1. No 2 may also take more time. No 2 wont be as sensational, nor as romantic or theatrical without the music. No 2 wont massage the ego very much.

No 1 it is then!

Click to expand...

Love it


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## DragonSlayer (16 July 2010)

vandypip said:



			You really are pathetic!!!
		
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My word, this strong statement will sort everyone out, won't it? 

Gosh, i'm trembling at the knees as I type...

Dear, if you haven't got anything more constructive to say, then you really won't hold any credence in a debate, will you?

Run along now, and let the grown-ups get on with the things that they know best....


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## CanadianGirl (16 July 2010)

siennamum said:



			I think that attitude is completely disgraceful tbh and you should hang up your 12 ft line in shame. By admitting this you have completely denied all assertions that horses are robotic in their reactions and have gone so far as to think they may not all fit into clearly defined types. If you keep up this shocking laissez faire thinking you'll be saying next that they have personalities.
		
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... Don't you mean "Horseanility" 

Yes, I joined the forum JUST to comment on this issue - (gasp ).  I've been lurking since it started and I am not a member of PETA, if that makes any difference.  

When I first read about and saw Parelli NH, I thought it seemed like a good concept.  Then I saw how much money they wanted for their equipment and DVD's!  Then I saw the video of Linda Parelli yanking on the leadline of a horse that clearly didn't have a clue of why it was being handled that way and what was being asked of it.  Finally, I see Pat Parelli seemingly mishandling a horse, against what he publicly says that they doesn't do!  My opinion of them as 'horse professionals' has taken a nosedive.

Reminds me of a saying that my mom says, "A fool and his money are soon parted"!


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## zareeba (16 July 2010)

I think what mtj was getting at was that the Parelli crew were being disingenuous in displaying the 'change' in Catwalk's behaviour - am I right, mtj?


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## zareeba (16 July 2010)

And your point is....?


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## zareeba (16 July 2010)

vandypip said:



			Dragonslayer, you are an even bigger a******e.  The rest of the world has moved on!! Little miss brain cell follow suit and astound everybody with your astute wisdom to end this now boring debate!!! bet you are not even capable.
		
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And your point is....?


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## Battyoldbint (16 July 2010)

vandypip said:



			Dragonslayer, you are an even bigger a******e.  The rest of the world has moved on!! Little miss brain cell follow suit and astound everybody with your astute wisdom to end this now boring debate!!! bet you are not even capable.
		
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Why should we end this debate? we are interested in it,just becose you dont like it dosent mean the rest of us dont.
How rude you are


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## mtj (16 July 2010)

My point is that I would like to see that repeated under all circumstances required for affiliated competition.

Reckon, Admin would prefer me not to spell out my point.  Sorry, you are going to have have to figure this out for yourself.


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## Sandstone1 (16 July 2010)

Surely,anyone who is not interested in this thread does not need to read it or add to it. I only joined today but may well not bother anymore if this is what happens. There seem to be some very silly, childish and rude comments.
A forum like this is supposed to be for debate and peoples views, not rude name calling.


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## Shysmum (16 July 2010)

vandypip, I think it's time you just stopped logging into this thread now. This is of serious concern for a huge number of people, and to be insulting to them is just - words fail me. I hope that your comments are removed. I am determined to know what is going to happen, as are most of the people on this forum. Who are you to tell us what we should/should not do ? This forum is being read internationally, and it is you who looks the complete numpty.

Itsmylife - please don't leave !! There are only a few who are showing their age. The vast majority of people are interested in everyone else's views - and that includes yours. Btw, welcome to the forum


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## TrecInWales (16 July 2010)

shysmum said:



			I feel this thread should only wrap up when we have the answers we are all looking for ;

- an outcome from the BHS
- an outcome from the RSPCA
- a statement from Robert Whitaker
- a statement from Pat Parelli
- possible proceedings under the Animal Welfare Act 1996

This was a serious incident, and I feel we owe it to the horse world to chase this up, if only to prevent it from happening in the UK again. Until we know what is/isn't being done, a lot of people will still be very uneasy. 

sm x
		
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I haven't been following the entirety of this thread but I am very confused.

- Only Pat/Linda/2 Parelli Professionals/Robert and the Vet were at the examination,  nobody else...
- No mention was made by the vet as regards lesions to the gum-line...
- The vet determined the horse was fit to compete, which it did...

Why on earth would Parelli bother putting out a public statement when it is evident from the hysterical posts on this forum that truth is of little value here... 

There is some insidious manipulation going on in this thread by a few individuals who have been less than honest with the truth.

Goodbye and good riddance to this forum and to all the fearful, evil-natured goblins that dwell within. Here be dragons....


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## Sandstone1 (16 July 2010)

shysmum said:



			vandypip, I think it's time you just stopped logging into this thread now. This is of serious concern for a huge number of people, and to be insulting to them is just - words fail me. I hope that your comments are removed. I am determined to know what is going to happen, as are most of the people on this forum. Who are you to tell us what we should/should not do ? This forum is being read internationally, and it is you who looks the complete ****.

Itsmylife - please don't leave !! There are only a few who are showing their age. The vast majority of people are interested in everyone else's views - and that includes yours. Btw, welcome to the forum 

Click to expand...

Thanks shysmum, it just made me angry to read such silly comments!
Everyone is intitled to a view but name calling etc lowers the tone of what is a serious issue.


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## poops (16 July 2010)

Vandypip, people are very concerned & upset about Catwalks treatment by PP.


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## zareeba (16 July 2010)

vandypip said:



			Dragonslayer, you are an even bigger a******e.  The rest of the world has moved on!! Little miss brain cell follow suit and astound everybody with your astute wisdom to end this now boring debate!!! bet you are not even capable.
		
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itsmylife said:



			Surely,anyone who is not interested in this thread does not need to read it or add to it. I only joined today but may well not bother anymore if this is what happens. There seem to be some very silly, childish and rude comments.
A forum like this is supposed to be for debate and peoples views, not rude name calling.
		
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Yes, please don't leave! I've lurked for years and only recently started posting again - hence the 'foal' status (I'm actually an old biddy ). I quite agree about the rudeness and name calling, but sadly you get that on a lot of forums. Don't let it put you off! Just feel sorry for those who are too immature to be able to contribute sensibly. Your input is valued!


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## Sandstone1 (16 July 2010)

zareeba said:



			Yes, please don't leave! I've lurked for years and only recently started posting again - hence the 'foal' status (I'm actually an old biddy ). I quite agree about the rudeness and name calling, but sadly you get that on a lot of forums. Don't let it put you off! Just feel sorry for those who are too immature to be able to contribute sensibly. Your input is valued!
		
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Thanks, I have been a lurker for ages but thought it was about time I joined to have my say!
(im quite old too!)


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## JanetGeorge (16 July 2010)

TrecInWales said:



			There is some insidious manipulation going on in this thread by a few individuals who have been less than honest with the truth.

Goodbye and good riddance to this forum and to all the fearful, evil-natured goblins that dwell within. Here be dragons....
		
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Bye-bye!  Don't let the door hit your a*se as you leave!    Funny how - whenever there is a 'contentious' thread here - all sorts of goblins JOIN the forum!  Usually disagreeing with majority opinion and insulting all the forum members with whom they disagree!  Generally they disappear up their own a*ses fairly quickly!  But some join because they want to debate the issue in a sensible manner - and hopefully they will stay!

It's been happening for the 9 years I have been posting here - and will no doubt continue for at LEAST as many years again!

But this forum HAS made changes for the better in the horse world:  ill-treated and neglected horses have been saved, the various organisations dealing with welfare and other equine issues DO read this forum and take note of anything that crosses their remit!

I WOULD like to see some posters moderate their tone and be more courteous to posters with whom they disagree:  a reasoned and polite response is more effective in presenting a view than an abusive tirade - even if it's saying the same thing.  But people DO feel strongly about cruelty issues - I certainly feel PP's treatment of Catwalk bordered on cruelty, as well as showing a prima facie case of trainer arrogance and stupidity!  But it does have an upside - hopefully, a LOT of novice horse owners who might have been lured in by the PP marketing exercise may now think twice!


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## itsme123 (16 July 2010)

Shaklana said:



			I think we need to be realistic here about what constitute's 'cruelty' in the eyes of the law.

If you could be prosecuted for restraining a horse by a limb, why not by head, mouth(via reins & bit) or nose?

Likewise, if you could be prosecuted for tack causing a minor lesion on the horse, a lot of us would be very worried - my own horse has a small girth gall AND a rub from a brushing boot currently!

It boils down to you either would or wouldn't apply these techniques to your horse. Nothing more. Chillax!
		
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If it could be proved that you restrained your animal (any animal) with unreasonable force, against it's will, causing fear or unnecessary distress to that animal (ie not for it's own welfare) then yes, you can be prosecuted. I wouldn't call putting a bridle on necessary for it's welfare. 

If you continued to use tack that caused rubs/ sores/ abrasions then again you can be prosecuted with causing unnecessary suffering to an animal. 

The RSPCA and Police can prosecute for this separately.


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## Onyxia (16 July 2010)

TrecInWales said:



			I haven't been following the entirety of this thread but I am very confused.

- Only Pat/Linda/2 Parelli Professionals/Robert and the Vet were at the examination,  nobody else...
- No mention was made by the vet as regards lesions to the gum-line...
- The vet determined the horse was fit to compete, which it did...
		
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Meh,contact the BHS.
A few people have said the same thing(BHS asked for a vet  to look at Catwalk,when this happened the vet found a wound.)
Catwalk may well have been fit to compete(bridle and bit will not touch the upper gum so would cause no further distress) while being unfit to continue with another demo given what had been done to cause the wound.





TrecInWales said:



			Why on earth would Parelli bother putting out a public statement when it is evident from the hysterical posts on this forum that truth is of little value here... 

There is some insidious manipulation going on in this thread by a few individuals who have been less than honest with the truth.

Goodbye and good riddance to this forum and to all the fearful, evil-natured goblins that dwell within. Here be dragons....
		
Click to expand...

Truth is,by and large of no matter to me personaly in things like this-it changes with perspective.
Fact on the other hand is a wonderfull thing 

I would like to know if RW WAS there for the whole demo.
I would like to know what Catwalk did when his groom tried to put the bridle on before the demo.
I would like to know what he does now.....


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## TrecInWales (16 July 2010)

JanetGeorge said:



			Bye-bye!  Don't let the door hit your a*se as you leave!    Funny how - whenever there is a 'contentious' thread here - all sorts of goblins JOIN the forum!  Usually disagreeing with majority opinion and insulting all the forum members with whom they disagree!  Generally they disappear up their own a*ses fairly quickly!  But some join because they want to debate the issue in a sensible manner - and hopefully they will stay!
		
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...witchhunt, there is no 'sensible' debate here, don't fool yourself, the evidence is in the last XXX pages...

I'm sure this forum has been instrumental in many a good discussion and deed in the past (in fact Janet, I know you have been instrumental in some of them), this forum thread is not such a discussion.

I hold to my initial comment, this forum should have a public health warning "here be dragons!"


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## TrecInWales (16 July 2010)

anima said:



			while being unfit to continue with another demo given what had been done to cause the wound.
		
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There was/is no legion/wound. What are you talking about? the lies posted by a certain individual earlier in this forum...?


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## intouch (16 July 2010)

http://www.thehorsemansapprentice.com/episodes/the-horsemans-apprentice-episode-2-web-only-footage/
THIS is where we're going wrong....


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## Tannis (16 July 2010)

I've had a thought - might be a bit incendiary but here goes...

There has been a lot of discussion regarding the definition of abuse and whether what happened was abuse.  I think a large proportion of people feel it was "inappropriate" to say the least.

Thre are then arguments about this type of thing being allowed to happen again.

It has been reported on here that the welfare organisations "may" be investigating.

But what if another tack is taken.

Just for one moment, put the emotional aspect of the behaviour on one side (and no, I don't mean forget it or belittle it).

What if the people who witnessed it and were affected by it decided to sue FOTH because what they saw was not what was advertised.  Under Trades Description or Trading Standards or whatever it is now, what was actually demonstrated does not reflect what was advertised.  In evidence, the FOTH advertisements can be used, coupled with the actual wording from the site of the people who performed the demonstration.

So, not only did customers not get the entertainment they were expecting but they found it so distressing that their enjoyment of the event was curtailed to such an extent that they had to leave.

Further, that left a bitter taste and affected their enjoyment of the whole day, not just the event that was not as advertised.

If (and it's a big if), the case(s) is/are successful, it should attract a lot of publicity and make other venues think twice before offering this particular entertainer a slot on their schedule.  

Let's take the heat out of it and litigate.  Cold hard fact - no mention of abuse.  The advertisements and publicity material led the audience to believe they would be seeing something very different.

And I'm sure there are enough people who didn't actually go but who feel strongly that we could start a fund to help the actual eye witnesses if they chose to litigate.  And if the case(s) is/are successful, any compensation could be donated to charity (maybe the welfare charity that was most proactive in this case??)


Like I said, just a thought after being stuck on the motorway for 7 hours


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## Caledonia (16 July 2010)

I like the way you think, Tannis! ;D


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## itsme123 (16 July 2010)

Tannis said:



			I've had a thought - might be a bit incendiary but here goes...

There has been a lot of discussion regarding the definition of abuse and whether what happened was abuse.  I think a large proportion of people feel it was "inappropriate" to say the least.

Thre are then arguments about this type of thing being allowed to happen again.

It has been reported on here that the welfare organisations "may" be investigating.

But what if another tack is taken.

Just for one moment, put the emotional aspect of the behaviour on one side (and no, I don't mean forget it or belittle it).

What if the people who witnessed it and were affected by it decided to sue FOTH because what they saw was not what was advertised.  Under Trades Description or Trading Standards or whatever it is now, what was actually demonstrated does not reflect what was advertised.  In evidence, the FOTH advertisements can be used, coupled with the actual wording from the site of the people who performed the demonstration.

So, not only did customers not get the entertainment they were expecting but they found it so distressing that their enjoyment of the event was curtailed to such an extent that they had to leave.

Further, that left a bitter taste and affected their enjoyment of the whole day, not just the event that was not as advertised.

If (and it's a big if), the case(s) is/are successful, it should attract a lot of publicity and make other venues think twice before offering this particular entertainer a slot on their schedule.  

Let's take the heat out of it and litigate.  Cold hard fact - no mention of abuse.  The advertisements and publicity material led the audience to believe they would be seeing something very different.

And I'm sure there are enough people who didn't actually go but who feel strongly that we could start a fund to help the actual eye witnesses if they chose to litigate.  And if the case(s) is/are successful, any compensation could be donated to charity (maybe the welfare charity that was most proactive in this case??)


Like I said, just a thought after being stuck on the motorway for 7 hours
		
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## siennamum (16 July 2010)

intouch said:



http://www.thehorsemansapprentice.com/episodes/the-horsemans-apprentice-episode-2-web-only-footage/
THIS is where we're going wrong....
		
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So does PP ever hire women who are um... plain, or overweight??


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## Onyxia (16 July 2010)

TrecInWales said:



			There was/is no legion/wound. What are you talking about? the lies posted by a certain individual earlier in this forum...?
		
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The statement made by several people on here and elswhere,yes 
It would not be unexpected that the methods used would result in a wound to the mouth so there is no reason to assume it is a lie.
Given the clear amount of force excerted and the position of the line,it would indeed be ilogical to thnk it did no harm.

So we have a problem(once again)-some say it caused a wound,others that ti did not.Without proof from the powers that be(and no,you don't count) it won't be settled to everyones satisfaction.
Perhaps since the BHS is reported to have knowledge on this matter,BHS_Lee could pop on the thread to confirm,would save them answering 1001 emails about the same topic too.

And for f**ks sake,would someone please answer the question instead of moaning about he said she said- WHAT did Catwalk do when his groom tried to put his bridle on,and what does he do now?


ETS- Some of the people who have commented on this thread are friends with the Whitakers,we "know" them and have no reason to disbelive what they say.
You are a new user so we ahve no idea who you are.Do you really expect people to belive your (rather rude) word over trusted long standing members of the forum?


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## Onyxia (16 July 2010)

siennamum said:



			So does PP ever hire women who are um... plain, or overweight??
		
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No,they would not look so good on the TV


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## pippinpie (16 July 2010)

Tannis said:



			I've had a thought - might be a bit incendiary but here goes...

There has been a lot of discussion regarding the definition of abuse and whether what happened was abuse.  I think a large proportion of people feel it was "inappropriate" to say the least.

Thre are then arguments about this type of thing being allowed to happen again.

It has been reported on here that the welfare organisations "may" be investigating.

But what if another tack is taken.

Just for one moment, put the emotional aspect of the behaviour on one side (and no, I don't mean forget it or belittle it).

What if the people who witnessed it and were affected by it decided to sue FOTH because what they saw was not what was advertised.  Under Trades Description or Trading Standards or whatever it is now, what was actually demonstrated does not reflect what was advertised.  In evidence, the FOTH advertisements can be used, coupled with the actual wording from the site of the people who performed the demonstration.

So, not only did customers not get the entertainment they were expecting but they found it so distressing that their enjoyment of the event was curtailed to such an extent that they had to leave.

Further, that left a bitter taste and affected their enjoyment of the whole day, not just the event that was not as advertised.

If (and it's a big if), the case(s) is/are successful, it should attract a lot of publicity and make other venues think twice before offering this particular entertainer a slot on their schedule.  

Let's take the heat out of it and litigate.  Cold hard fact - no mention of abuse.  The advertisements and publicity material led the audience to believe they would be seeing something very different.

And I'm sure there are enough people who didn't actually go but who feel strongly that we could start a fund to help the actual eye witnesses if they chose to litigate.  And if the case(s) is/are successful, any compensation could be donated to charity (maybe the welfare charity that was most proactive in this case??)


Like I said, just a thought after being stuck on the motorway for 7 hours
		
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Hummm on those grounds I think there is no case to answer: you freely bought a ticket to see a demo of PNH which was billed to say that PP would be working with a problem/difficult horse, that in its self is mitigating evidence, if you then found out that the problem horse required handling in a way that you found distressing but was quite an accepted way of doing things within the realms of horse handling, I think you would still be on shaky ground. Mitigating evidence would also be that there was no anger or aggression from the perpetrator to the horse, there was no intent to harm the horse in the slightest. He had full authority to handle the horse from its owner who as an experienced horseman himself, and did not make any attempt to stop the way it was handled, also the owner allow the horse to continue to be handled for a further 7 hours the following day.
Ah then there would be the eyewitnesses, I bet they could match every one of your witnesses with one favourable to them
Nahh can't see it happening.


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## Tannis (16 July 2010)

B U T

the general premise of co-operation, partnership, no force etc etc - as advertised - is not what happened.

In the realms of reality, we all know that force may be used.  But the big difference is that most people don't advertise it and then go on to use it in full knowledge that it is not what was advertised.  

That's the difference.

It's not a matter of horsemanship or knowledge - there was a threshold that was reached and the person in question was in full knowledge that he was crossing it - at least according to his own publicity he has that knowledge.

This is where the horseman and the business man separate.  The horseman knew he had a battle to win.  The business man forgot that he used techniques contrary to what he had advertised.

There is an argument to be made.

And a court of non horsey people would watch this in the cold light of objectivity and see a man forcing his will on a horse and then they would look at the printed statements that clearly say no force will be used.


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## 7HL (16 July 2010)

TrecInWales said:



			I haven't been following the entirety of this thread but I am very confused.

- Only Pat/Linda/2 Parelli Professionals/Robert and the Vet were at the examination,  nobody else...
- No mention was made by the vet as regards lesions to the gum-line...
- The vet determined the horse was fit to compete, which it did...

Why on earth would Parelli bother putting out a public statement when it is evident from the hysterical posts on this forum that truth is of little value here... 

There is some insidious manipulation going on in this thread by a few individuals who have been less than honest with the truth.
		
Click to expand...

*

They don't want the truth, they have made up their minds, twisted the facts and are now looking for blood!*


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## Natch (16 July 2010)

Quote:
Originally Posted by siennamum  
So does PP ever hire women who are um... plain, or overweight?? 


anima said:



			No,they would not look so good on the TV 

Click to expand...

I know! See 40 seconds in when Pat catches a good look at the girl's bum at face height 

Jesting aside, I'm going to repeat myself for one last time for TrecInWales' benefit - look at the BHS' letter. Email them yourself asking for confirmation. But for gods sake stop saying there was no wound when you don't know that, and the most well thought of horsey organisation in the country begs to differ with you.


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## dany (16 July 2010)

Not sure if this has been posted allready, but....

STATEMENT FROM BRITISH SHOWJUMING ON THE PARELLI/CATWALK TRAINING

Friday 16 July 2010



Following the Parelli training session at the Royal Festival of the Horse event (10th July 2010), British Showjumping understand a complaint was made as to Catwalk's welfare and that as a result a veterinary inspection took place where he was found to be fit and well.


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## 7HL (16 July 2010)

dany said:



			Not sure if this has been posted allready, but....

STATEMENT FROM BRITISH SHOWJUMING ON THE PARELLI/CATWALK TRAINING

Friday 16 July 2010



Following the Parelli training session at the Royal Festival of the Horse event (10th July 2010), British Showjumping understand a complaint was made as to Catwalk's welfare and that as a result a veterinary inspection took place where he was found to be fit and well.
		
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*
It won't matter.  Someone posted an email, that can't verified, maybe created or made up, that there were injuries.  The facts are secondary.  They don't care... they have an agenda.*


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## Natch (16 July 2010)

7HL said:



*
It won't matter.  Someone posted an email, that can't verified, maybe created or made up, that there were injuries.  The facts are secondary.  They don't care... they have an agenda.*

Click to expand...

Perhaps you should email the BHS yourself?


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## 7HL (16 July 2010)

Naturally said:



			Perhaps you should email the BHS yourself?
		
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Why??




			the most well thought of horsey organisation
		
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By the way, what is a horsey?


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## Diggerdog2 (16 July 2010)

Your guess was right Tannis, your post was so incendiary, I had to stop lurking and register so that I could respond!

Playing devil's advocate and assuming that you won your court case, the following would be likely to happen:

The organisers' liability insurance for all events featuring horses would rise dramatically. This would apply to any event as there is risk of horses being injured and therefore spectators becoming distressed - show jumping, Monty demos, team chasing, racing, eventing, express eventing, right down to your local show. Insurance premiums are not calculated by horse people who would differentiate between Parelli and the possibility of a horse breaking its neck in a rotational fall across country

The Festival of the Horse would certainly fold with those increase costs, along with many other shows that are hanging on by the skin of their teeth in the current economic climate. Horse shows are already unprofitable, as shown by The British Open SJ.

Venues would consider their own liability and increase costs to cover their perceived risks, or decline to take bookings from horse events.

Events that continued to host demonstrations would not arrange any demos featuring problem horses or unstarted horses. "Bye bye Monty, Kelly Marks and Richard Maxwell"

Welcome to Utopia, are you proud of what you have achieved?

Tannis, I appreciate that you feel strongly about this, but your idea of a legal course of action has consequences that you have clearly not even considered.

From an event organiser.


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## Natch (16 July 2010)

7HL said:



			Why??
		
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To get hold of an original copy of the document that you claim can't be verified, and may be fabricated or in some way doctored. I quote again your previous post:



7HL said:



			Someone posted an email, that can't verified, maybe created or made up
		
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7HL said:



			By the way, what is a horsey?
		
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Well, you could either see Fumanchu's post about horsies and ponios (spelling may vary) and judge for yourself, or you could use common sense to interpret my post. 

If it saves you the hassle, I meant an organisation which is related to horses. I was using what I assumed was a commonly known slang word. 

I hope that clarifies things for you.


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## vandypip (16 July 2010)

7HL You are clearly right here. Big mistakes have been made but this forum is now made up or NH "disciples" and those baying for blood. Its rubbish and H & H should intervene and close this thread now.


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## lauracrawly (16 July 2010)

you pro parelli people really dont like it when you dont get you way or your not being agreed with ,i can almost see you stamping your feet and chucking your toys out the pram ! everyone is allowed an opinion so deal with it !!! of course you can have your say but dont get a sh*t on when people dont agree with u !!!


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## KitKat_89 (16 July 2010)

vandypip said:



			7HL You are clearly right here. Big mistakes have been made but this forum is now made up or NH "disciples" and those baying for blood. Its rubbish and H & H should intervene and close this thread now.
		
Click to expand...

On the contary - I think with the overwhelming interest in this thread H&H should (probably already are) go out and do some nice investigative journalism and run a nice, big article on the whole fiasco and what really went on! (as I have the gist of it from this thread and from a friend, but really do not wish to look through all 40+ pages for the small details!)


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## ester (16 July 2010)

I love it when people start demanding threads be closed  heaven forbid people be allowed to keep chatting about something  

its really very easy to get it done but I'm not one for giving hints


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## Echo Bravo (16 July 2010)

I said that 20 posts ago I think and got shot down about closing it down, but then realised everyone has a right to have their say. what somebody should do is have a poll. Do Parellie do any good for horse/Are Parellie in it for the money.
And if I hear the word SAVVY from someone close I'll deck them.


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## vandypip (16 July 2010)

Face up to it everybody. Parelli made a big mistake. The horse Catwalk is ok which of bloody well course he would be after such a short period of training time. Damage limitation is in order, parelli actually is a clever horseman same as the whitakers, we don't need to follow them blindly!!! use your own personal judgement, ethics and stop being so bloody anthropomorphic about the animal involved, CATWALK IS OK that is all that matters!!! the rest can be sorted. Get over your selves!!!!


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## lauracrawly (16 July 2010)

there goes yet another toy out the pram


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## ester (16 July 2010)

who is going to sort the rest?


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## Shysmum (16 July 2010)

I've put five people on "ignore" now - and this thread just keeps on coming !


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## 7HL (16 July 2010)

vandypip said:



			7HL You are clearly right here. Big mistakes have been made but this forum is now made up or NH "disciples" and those baying for blood. Its rubbish and H & H should intervene and close this thread now.
		
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It will die on it's own.

H&H shouldn't delete it or close it. They would then say Parelli got them to close it down.


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## teddyt (16 July 2010)

vandypip said:



			stop being so bloody anthropomorphic about the animal involved
		
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Oh! Like Pat sharing his lunch with him? Thats not anthropomorphic at all is it? 
What about the parelli games? Do horses play games? or is that what people do?


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## vandypip (16 July 2010)

shysmum said:



			vandypip, I think it's time you just stopped logging into this thread now. This is of serious concern for a huge number of people, and to be insulting to them is just - words fail me. I hope that your comments are removed. I am determined to know what is going to happen, as are most of the people on this forum. Who are you to tell us what we should/should not do ? This forum is being read internationally, and it is you who looks the complete numpty.

Itsmylife - please don't leave !! There are only a few who are showing their age. The vast majority of people are interested in everyone else's views - and that includes yours. Btw, welcome to the forum 

Click to expand...

In the big wide real world nobody is really interested!!! I use some parelli tactics myself very successfully, But I'm not buying the package thankyou very much!!! use and discriminate according to your own personnel judgement and morals. Don't blame Parelli if you've forked out thousands on their package. Your decision, no gun at your head. Thats business. Yes, they've evidently been abusive in the past, their very reason to do what they are doing, nothing wrong with that. Lapse of judgement to delver the goods at festival of the horse = damage limitation. Let them prove it!!!! Naivity??? you bet!! don't ever delve into showjumping!!!


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## 7HL (16 July 2010)

Echo Bravo said:



			I said that 20 posts ago I think and got shot down about closing it down, but then realised everyone has a right to have their say. what somebody should do is have a poll. Do Parellie do any good for horse/Are Parellie in it for the money.
And if I hear the word SAVVY from someone close I'll deck them.

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Of course Parelli is in it for the money. He's a SAVVY businessman as well as a SAVVY Horse Trainer. There are many people out that would love to be making a living,  working, riding  and playing with horses. 

Of course some let jealousy get in the way of rational thinking. 

As for a poll...answered the money question.

As for good for horses, using his methods, I have been able to have a good partnership with my horse and an understanding on how to deal with others. Not sure whether sometimes it's accurate to say he's training horses, more he's training people. Horses know how to do it all already. 

A good definition of NH by another trainer is...

"Natural horsemanship (NH) simply means that we know and understand the horse's instinctive and herd behaviors and that we use that information to develop a willing partnership and communicate with the horse and in a way that he understands." ~ Julie Goodnight


Surprised no one has brought up the secret handshake that us Parelli followers use.


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## vandypip (16 July 2010)

7HL said:



			It will die on it's own.

H&H shouldn't delete it or close it. They would then say Parelli got them to close it down.
		
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Suppose so.


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## Tannis (16 July 2010)

Diggerdog2 said:



			Your guess was right Tannis, your post was so incendiary, I had to stop lurking and register so that I could respond!

Playing devil's advocate and assuming that you won your court case, the following would be likely to happen:

The organisers' liability insurance for all events featuring horses would rise dramatically. This would apply to any event as there is risk of horses being injured and therefore spectators becoming distressed - show jumping, Monty demos, team chasing, racing, eventing, express eventing, right down to your local show. Insurance premiums are not calculated by horse people who would differentiate between Parelli and the possibility of a horse breaking its neck in a rotational fall across country

The Festival of the Horse would certainly fold with those increase costs, along with many other shows that are hanging on by the skin of their teeth in the current economic climate. Horse shows are already unprofitable, as shown by The British Open SJ.

Venues would consider their own liability and increase costs to cover their perceived risks, or decline to take bookings from horse events.

Events that continued to host demonstrations would not arrange any demos featuring problem horses or unstarted horses. "Bye bye Monty, Kelly Marks and Richard Maxwell"

Welcome to Utopia, are you proud of what you have achieved?

Tannis, I appreciate that you feel strongly about this, but your idea of a legal course of action has consequences that you have clearly not even considered.

From an event organiser.
		
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Yes, I carefully considered before I wrote.

Event organisers cannot demand what has already been described in H&H as an extortionate entry fee and then not take responsibilty

Any business is open to litagation if it fails to meet its obligations or advertises itself as something it isn't - that's why the laws exist.


This is what was advertised


The Royal Festival of the Horse is delighted to welcome Pat and Linda Parelli. The Parelli programme stands alone as the worlds first step-by-step, learn at your own pace horse/human development programme. It was Linda and Pat Parelli who coined the often used phrase natural horsemanship and today they command the largest number of followers around the globe.

The Parelli method allows horse lovers at all levels and disciplines to achieve success without force, partnership without dominance, teamwork without fear, willingness without intimidation, and harmony without coercion. The Parelli programme combines common sense psychology and communication. The Parelli method teaches the human, not the horse.

Come along to the Parelli Pavilion at the Festival, open to all Festival visitors on Friday and Saturday. The Parelli Pavilion allows you a chance to find out more about natural horsemanship. Why not treat yourself on Friday or Saturday night to one of the evening gala performances when Pat and Linda will be sharing their valuable experiences. For more information about Parelli visit www.parelli.com



Take all emotion out of it.  Can you honestly, hand on heart, say that this is what customers witnessed:

success without force
partnership without dominance
teamwork without fear
willingness without intimidation
harmony without coercion
gala performances when Pat and Linda will be sharing their valuable experiences


There was force
There was an attempt to dominate
There was behaviour which is could be described as fear
There was behaviour that could be described as intimidation
There was coercion
Pat, removed him microphone, and so was not sharing valuable experience because he failed to explain his methods or his motives


That is simple fact.  Not emotion.  Not for or against Parelli. Not for or against Natural Horsemanship.  Not for or against an event taking responsibility.

If an event sets itself up as a money making venture then it must fulfil the obligations that go with that.

The law states that all events should undertake a risk analysis and take steps to mitigate against that and take the necessary insurances.

It's not bye bye Monty Roberts, Kelly Marks, Richard Maxwell et al.  Responsible horsemasters and mistresses will know what should and should not be attempted in the name of entertainment and what should be done privately.  If a horse behaviourist takes on a task beyond what is reasonable for "entertainment" then they should use their expertise to advise the owner/organiser/audience as to why that particular animal is not to be used as a subject for demonstration purposes.  They can then go on to explain how they would achieve success but not actually attempt it.

Organisations/events will only be sued if, as would appear to be the case in this instance, the people undertaking the demonstration continue to advertise their prowess without being able to deliver the goods as described in their publicity material.

All that was needed was for the people involved on the night to say that this horse had severe problems - illustrate what the problems were and then identify how they would deal with it and then a few days later bring the horse back.  

All they needed to do was be honest in the publicity material and say that some cases require longer treatment than can be provided in a demonstration slot.

The simple matter of fact is that these people have been hoisted by their own petard - they believed their own publicity instead of being honest.

Or to put it simply - they shot themselves in the foot.

Be honest and there is no need for litigation.

What would have happened if this had happened in America?  The grounds for litigation there would appear to much stronger than they are elsewhere.


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## Echo Bravo (16 July 2010)

Must look SAVVY up in the Oxford Dictionary:- Savvy (slang) for knowingness and how wrong is that in PP.


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## pippinpie (16 July 2010)

Can I be polite and ask how many people that have posted here in the last few day and are still here, were actually there?
I wasn't and I have not made any comments regarding what actually happen, by watching a very poor quality phone/camera video I would not put my hand on my heart and stand up and say that what I saw was horse abuse, I saw no trauma or fear displayed by Catwalk, in fact I thought he looked very good natured and was just saying 'I'm not having it' he obviously has worked out very well how not to let someone touch him on the head, so most of the time he was just obstructive, if he had really wanted out of there and was scared for his life I don't think Pat and Linda together would have stopped him, yes he didn't like what was happening to him that was obvious.
I really do believe that if PP had thought that this horse was going to 'blow up' and injure itself, he would have been the first person to see it coming.
Just my view of what I personally saw on the video clips, I don't listen to hearsay if some saw something then thats what they saw, we all know that 50 people might have seen the same thing but none of the description would be them.
I have witnessed several cases of abuse to both horses and pets and twice I have informed RSPCA and got them to intervene and help the animal, if this was so bad can any one who saw it, tell me why the RSPCA was not called immediately, it was apparently going on for 2 hours.
If PP is found guilty of abusing this horse (in a court of law) I will be the first one to throw the rotten apples.


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## teddyt (16 July 2010)

Tannis said:



			The Parelli method allows horse lovers at all levels and disciplines to achieve success without force, partnership without dominance, teamwork without fear, willingness without intimidation, and harmony without coercion. The Parelli programme combines common sense psychology and communication. The Parelli method teaches the human, not the horse.
		
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Snort


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## DragonSlayer (16 July 2010)

vandypip said:



			7HL You are clearly right here. Big mistakes have been made but this forum is now made up or NH "disciples" and those baying for blood. Its rubbish and H & H should intervene and close this thread now.
		
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What a shame I couldnt reply to the post you made in reply to me! But I did see what you wrote on other ones who had quoted it....so I'm in luck!

Why did I sound so sarcastic?

You are incapable of a debate, the majority here have good things to say and points to make. You just decided to throw in an insult.


You talk about closing the thread, why are you still here bumping it along?


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## 7HL (16 July 2010)

What would have happened if this had happened in America? The grounds for litigation there would appear to much stronger than they are elsewhere.
		
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Litigation for what?

You obviously haven't seen other trainers give demos.

You should have been  at the Road to the Horse, when Clinton Anderson brought out the chain saw, the bull whip and shot off some pistols.

Us Americans like a good show.

I guess it doesn't matter what Mr Whittaker thinks and feels about the demo, since he does own Catwalk?


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## Onyxia (16 July 2010)

*Sticks head round door*
So....no one would like to tell us what exactly Catwalk did when someone attempted to bridle him? Why am I not suprised..... *sigh*  

Funny thing is,thae ONLY possable glint of an excuse PP would have is that the horse was pretty much leathel in his objection to the bridle.
His worshipers,sorry,followers should eb pretty quick to dig up evidence if that was the case.
If,as suspected,he objected but was not a real danger ot his handler why the forcefull nasty "cure" to the problem?

EQT,and FWIT,this forum has had threads just as long as this about traditional methods we don't agree with-it is not simply because of who did it-the issue is firmly with what was done.


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## Tannis (16 July 2010)

pippinpie said:



			If PP is found guilty of abusing this horse (in a court of law) I will be the first one to throw the rotten apples.
		
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Abuse would be difficult to prove

But he definitely did not provide what he and FOTH advertised and that is open to civil proceedings should anyone wish to follow that course


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## 7HL (16 July 2010)

Tannis said:



			Abuse would be difficult to prove

But he definitely did not provide what he and FOTH advertised and that is open to civil proceedings should anyone wish to follow that course
		
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So will YOU be taking him,them to court? Or are you just an instigator?


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## Shysmum (16 July 2010)

the legal term for "abuse" is unnecessary suffering. Like I say, witness statements, a vet statement, and voila ! You have a case to answer under the Animal Welfare Act 1996. For me, this is one of the big questions - is there enough evidence ?


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## Tannis (16 July 2010)

7HL said:



			Litigation for what?

You obviously haven't seen other trainers give demos.

You should have been  at the Road to the Horse, when Clinton Anderson brought out the chain saw, the bull whip and shot off some pistols.

Us Americans like a good show.

I guess it doesn't matter what Mr Whittaker thinks and feels about the demo, since he does own Catwalk?
		
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Absolutely nothing to do with my position on this

This event was advertised as stated above - it did not deliver what was advertised.

End of

That equals cause for civil proceedings.


If you went to buy a horse advertised as one thing and it turned out to be something completely different after you bought it, you would have recourse to civil proceedings if you could not resolve it privately and compensation would be forthcoming if you were successful.  This is exactly the same.  

This is Sales of Goods.  People bought tickets believing one thing and what they got was something else.

This slant of things is not to do with who, what, how, - it's about what was advertised and what was delivered.

This is absolutely nothing to do with Robert Whitaker, or Pat Parelli as a person.  It's to do with business - the business of Parelli advertised via FOTH, something it could not deliver.  Based on the publicity, people bought tickets in good faith to watch something that turned out to be very different.


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## anglo_arab_lover (16 July 2010)

I have been very upset about what I saw on Youtube of Pat Parelli and what he did to Robert Whitaker's horse Catwalk, and I have started a facebook page which I hope you will consider joining. Hopefully the moderator will let me post this link, as it is in the name of horse welfare:

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?g...ref=ts#!/group.php?gid=113460005369655&ref=ts


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## vandypip (16 July 2010)

DragonSlayer said:



			What a shame I couldnt reply to the post you made in reply to me! But I did see what you wrote on other ones who had quoted it....so I'm in luck!

Why did I sound so sarcastic?

You are incapable of a debate, the majority here have good things to say and points to make. You just decided to throw in an insult.


You talk about closing the thread, why are you still here bumping it along?
		
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I'm bumping it along because their are too may people baying for blood. None of what has happened is quite that serious. It can all be got over and improved if everybody would calm down and let things move on. Evolvement is the key, and I'm sure the Parellis and Whitakers would agree.


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## 7HL (16 July 2010)

TANNIS this sound familiar...



			None of us supports or should tolerate abuse. All of us should support open and fair analysis of evidence. But all of us should make sure evidence is available before condemning individuals and organisations in such a public manner.
		
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So produce the evidence, and take them to court. Put up or shut up! Not opinions, just the facts.


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## pippinpie (16 July 2010)

Is there anybody here now that was there? I am not being rude, sarky, or insulting (as many have been, on both sides I may add!)
You can't debate the rights and wrongs of anything when immature, insulting comments keep cropping up, it just devalues what you are saying, yes you might feel big in the moment but is it really necessary?


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## Tannis (16 July 2010)

There is evidence - the video is evidence.

From your perspective, it may not illustrate the whole 3 hours but in that case a defence would be required and the defence should be a video of the other 2 hours 48 minutes (or whatever it is).

We are now on day 7 and no defence has been provided or is forthcoming from anyone.

If this video was out of context and the allegations made, then defend it with video.

Otherwise, out of context or not, there is evidence to support the allegation that what was advertised is not what was demonstrated.

Unfortunately, all the wording used on Parelli's own site only go to show how far the behaviour shown on the video (albeit out of context) deviate from what is professed to be "the norm"

My argument is not about abuse.  It's a simple matter that what was advertised is not what was delivered.  And that, quite simply (personalities and emotion aside) is grounds for litigation.


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## baymareb (16 July 2010)

JanetGeorge said:



			Funny how - whenever there is a 'contentious' thread here - all sorts of goblins JOIN the forum!  Usually disagreeing with majority opinion and insulting all the forum members with whom they disagree!  Generally they disappear up their own a*ses fairly quickly!  But some join because they want to debate the issue in a sensible manner - and hopefully they will stay!
		
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I don't know as it's funny - I think it's rather human nature.  Contentious or controversial subjects tend to get more people interested.  After all, the majority of posts on this thread are from long-time posters judging from the post counts.

I freely admit I joined to put in my 2 cents (which is probably about what it's worth) but I have lurked here for several months.  I never joined prior because much of what is discussed is more relevant to the UK but I have found some interesting reading and I would certainly like to stay now I've taken the plunge.

A poster on this thread rather attacked me and accused me of mentioning where I come from originally (New England) in order to "suck up" and insinuated that I was trying to weasel my way in by agreeing with the majority.  I felt it was a foolish statement at the time but reading this remark about people joining at a time like this, I hope it's not the majority view that those of who come along as I did are somehow lesser members of the community.  I'm a horse lover, I love talking to other horse lovers and this incident outraged me to the extent that I joined in order to discuss it.

Although I will say that even if I disagreed with the majority, I would hope that if I was civil and polite, I would be welcome to stay as well.  

(and I don't mean any of this as a criticism of what you posted JanetGeorge - I am just using it as a means to clarify where I come from.  It's always a bit nerve-wracking joining an established group of people)


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## DragonSlayer (16 July 2010)

vandypip said:



			I'm bumping it along because their are too may people baying for blood. None of what has happened is quite that serious. It can all be got over and improved if everybody would calm down and let things move on. Evolvement is the key, and I'm sure the Parellis and Whitakers would agree.
		
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But you just said it should be closed, so which is it?

I'm not here baying for blood. Never have been, I have been reading and making comments as I see fit. Insults are not the way, but I'm sure you have realised that by now seeing as the offending post was pulled....

I don't believe anyone here reported you for calling them pathetic, yet someone comes back at you, not with an insult, but good old sarcasm, and you call them an a******e. That's nice, I must say! BUT I have been called much worse by students at school, so it's water off a ducks back I'm afraid!

I have never followed Parelli. Why? Because I believe what I do works. My horses respond to what I ask of them and are rewarded for their efforts. Why fix something that ain't broken? The fact of the matter remains, a horse was apparently hurt during a demo that was MEANT to show a non-invasive technique. IF the horse was injured, then obviously it didn't go as well as Mr. P had hoped. NOT ONCE have I slated the PP technique, I have just asked questions about it, and followed with interest many different points of view. So I am certainly not out for blood.

It takes a big man to admit he made a mistake. IF all the facts are true, IF indeed a grave error of judgement was made, then he needs to stand up and admit that. The public will respond to that in a much better way than saying nothing at all and carrying on as if nothing has ever happened.....


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## Shysmum (16 July 2010)

Baymareb - Personally, I think it's fab you've taken the trouble to join, and your cent's worth is just as good as any penny's. It's interesting to hear things from a US point of view, and I hope that you do feel that you are welcome here. People join here all the time, tbh, but this is the debate that has triggered so many responses from here and from the US, and has encouraged a lot of peeps to join. As Parelli is a US thing, the US viewpoint is especially welcome!

I for one would hate to think that you don't feel welcome. This forum is a lively one, and things do get debated, but there is also a lot of help and support here. And a lot of humour too...  sm x


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## Onyxia (16 July 2010)

DragonSlayer said:



			It takes a big man to admit he made a mistake. IF all the facts are true, IF indeed a grave error of judgement was made, then he needs to stand up and admit that. The public will respond to that in a much better way than saying nothing at all and carrying on as if nothing has ever happened.....
		
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Very well said DS 

It does not look like that will happen,but it should have been the first thing done.
I do think PP himself is on some level ashamed of what he did,or why choose to show so little of the demo in his own video? Out of a 2 min video posted by Parelli,they show 9 or 10 seconds of Friday and in the clips from the next day only show the bridle ON ,not how they get it there(which if you are trying to educate is a bloody big omission!).

People who don't see any wrong in their actions don't care who is watching.


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## 7HL (16 July 2010)

From your perspective, it may not illustrate the whole 3 hours but in that case a defence would be required and the defence should be a video of the other 2 hours 48 minutes (or whatever it is).
		
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Maybe there you are guilty untill proven innocent, but in the US it is innocent until proven guilty. We put the burden, so to speak on the prosecutor to prove guilt beyond the shaddow of a doubt.


I have seen the three or four minute video clips from a cell phone. Not abuse. You may feel you want a refund for your ticket purchase, but it doesn't sound like many went there to see Parelli anyway. You should have asked for a refund at the door.






			It's a simple matter that what was advertised is not what was delivered.
		
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Many other that went to the event / demo believe it was. I think it just boils down to a differing opinion.


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## baymareb (16 July 2010)

shysmum said:



			I for one would hate to think that you don't feel welcome. This forum is a lively one, and things do get debated, but there is also a lot of help and support here.   sm x
		
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Thanks Shysmum - I don't feel UNwelcome, just a little hesitant dipping my feet in.


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## DragonSlayer (16 July 2010)

vandypip said:



			Well, I will say again, and yes, there have been a lot of a*******s on this thread, and anyway, how do you know what word I'm using???? Parelli have falled short, their mistake, their responsibility to make up. They do have training methods, ie., western philosophy, that is good and relevant. What they have done is recognise a business venture. Can you blame them??? I'd like to make money this way!!! although I hasten to add not quite how they've done it. They will survive because there are enough people out there that need them. The marketing is the big problem here. That is now the issue.
		
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It's easy to know what word you are using, by the power of deduction...

It's too strong a word I'm afraid, to expect a sensible response I would suggest 'mis-guided'.....'lacking in sufficent knowledge' and the like..bet you get better results.

Yes, it's good they make money, it's perfectly ok, BUT as I've never seen the need to change what I do, I've never been swayed to pay huge amounts of cash to 'experience' it.

AND I bought a horse that had 'apparently done all the Parelli stuff'....a vicious, nasty and basically dangerous horse that TBH should probably have been destroyed, because whatever he had been subjected to, there was zero-trust to humans...

Now, I'm willing to bet that IF he had been 'Parelli-Trained', then it must have been a pretty poor advocate who 'parellied' him....and was a very bad example of someone who was meant to 'be an expert' in the technique....which of course, already gives Parelli a bad name....

The said horse now is on loan with view to buy, at my yard (woman saving up as she loves him to bits) and she has 3 young kids, ALL of whom now help with the grooming, and day to day care.

I put down his change of character to once more learning to trust humans again. Love, patience, care and a willingness to accept he went through bad times. If he didn't respond to me, I left it, and we tried another day. We have owned him getting on for 5 years now, for the first year and a half, he hated us.....for the remaining years he has been a joy to own.....


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## vandypip (16 July 2010)

Act in haste, repent at leisure springs to mind. Give Parelli a chance. Big mistakes for the sake of business. Even bigger mistake. Now we will see the dedication of the man. After all he can't possibly need the money so give him the opportunity. After all thats what NH should be about.


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## Onyxia (16 July 2010)

vandypip said:



			The sad thing is this has always been my argument!!!!! and if people don't like being called A*******s then maybe they should consider what they post themselves!!!!
		
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Or maybe the name callers should go back to their mothers for a while 
If you need to resort to insults to try and get your point across,you have lost before you start.

Do not mistake similar words for similar thinking- IF PP had remained calm and workmanlike he would not have run over the session by so long(or is it normal for Parelli to work horses for so long? Basic principle,the more intense the session the shorter the time acceptable).
It seems very clear that being unable to produce the goods on what aparently an "extreme case" (although there is no evidence of that) made PP lose his sense of judgement.
A couple of days later,rather then publish a full or even fully representative video a TINY clip of the horse simply saying "no thanks" and pulling away when he touches it's head is shown.
Putting on the bridle is NOT.
Some shots of PP fiddling with it (and an unhappy horse again saying no thanks) is.


Simple version-
Should it have bene done the way it was? NO.
Was there another option? YES.
Was there a better option? YES.

As I have said before,a good horseman thinks there is always another day,while a bad one thinks there is always another horse.


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## DragonSlayer (16 July 2010)

vandypip said:



			The sad thing is this has always been my argument!!!!! and if people don't like being called A*******s then maybe they should consider what they post themselves!!!!
		
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I used sarcasm, you used insults, and I can sleep at night.


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## Onyxia (16 July 2010)

vandypip said:



			Act in haste, repent at leisure springs to mind. Give Parelli a chance. Big mistakes for the sake of business. Even bigger mistake. Now we will see the dedication of the man. After all he can't possibly need the money so give him the opportunity. After all thats what NH should be about.
		
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Really? I thought it was about people wanting to move away from out dated abusive training methods to kinder ones the horse is better able to understand what is asked of him.
i thought it was about giving the horse the respect the animal deserves.
Silly me


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## Tannis (16 July 2010)

7HL said:



			Maybe there you are guilty untill proven innocent, but in the US it is innocent until proven guilty. We put the burden, so to speak on the prosecutor to prove guilt beyond the shaddow of a doubt.


I have seen the three or four minute video clips from a cell phone. Not abuse. You may feel you want a refund for your ticket purchase, but it doesn't sound like many went there to see Parelli anyway. You should have asked for a refund at the door.





Many other that went to the event / demo believe it was. I think it just boils down to a differing opinion.
		
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You're missing the point completely.

Many people on here have stated that they never want to see anything like this again.  The arguments to stop that have been about abuse.  That's difficult to prove.

However, under Sales of Goods, there is an argument.

Under UK law, if someone brings a case against someone and submits evidence in support of their claim then it is up the the opposition to prove that the claim is unfounded.  It's Civil Law not Criminal Law.  Civil Law is based on the degree of "reasonableness". 

So, if somone brings a claim under Civil Law and submits evidence (video) to support their claim and the "other side" isn't able to provide evidence to refute that claim (video), then obviously the Court would have to rule on what was presented before them.

My opinion is that at the moment if someone were to bring a claim under Sales of Goods that what they saw is not what was advertised, they are entitled to submit the video evidence that is available to support their claim.  They can also provide the wording of the publicity material that support their reason for purchase of a ticket.  They would be The Claimant.  If The Defendant could produce evidence of a similar nature to refute the claim, then the Court would assess the merits of both sides.

All I have pointed out is that there is evidence available to support an allegation about of failure to comply with Sales of Goods, and as of today, there has been no evidence offered to present an alternative view.


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## Equibrit (16 July 2010)

Get the T shirt !! http://www.cafepress.com/maneevents/7226345


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## Natch (16 July 2010)

anima said:



			*Sticks head round door*
So....no one would like to tell us what exactly Catwalk did when someone attempted to bridle him? Why am I not suprised..... *sigh* 

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No, that would involve giving a straight reply to a straight question.


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## 7HL (16 July 2010)

Many people on here have stated that they never want to see anything like this again. The arguments to stop that have been about abuse. That's difficult to prove.
		
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Maybe because it didn't happen.




			"Under UK law, if someone brings a case against someone and submits evidence in support of their claim then it is up the the opposition to prove that the claim is unfounded. It's Civil Law not Criminal Law. Civil Law is based on the degree of "reasonableness"."
		
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So if I subscibe to Horse and Hound and I don't like what they print, publish I can sue them for failure to produce what I perseve what they advertised they would deliver?

Does that go for Movies, Music, Play Books etc? If I don't think a Movie presents what is advertised I can sue them? Why not just get your money back? Or better yet, leave and don't go again.


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## pippinpie (16 July 2010)

anima said:



			........I do think PP himself is on some level ashamed of what he did,or why choose to show so little of the demo in his own video? Out of a 2 min video posted by Parelli,they show 9 or 10 seconds of Friday and in the clips from the next day only show the bridle ON ,not how they get it there(which if you are trying to educate is a bloody big omission!).

People who don't see any wrong in their actions don't care who is watching.
		
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I would like to make a couple of points here.
I think the video put out by PNH was not necessarily made and broadcast for the benefit of people that were not there, but for the people who were there and were concerned how the demo might have affected Catwalk. it didn't have to show the demo just how the horse was after and the next day for anyone that might have worried or was concerned for the horse.
Can I please ask why I feel that no-one has answered my questions or  perhaps I'm being to polite, or can I take it that my comments might just be worthy or on the other hand not worth replying to.


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## 7HL (16 July 2010)

Equibrit said:



			Get the T shirt !! .....
		
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This is a better one from the same site....


http://www.cafepress.com/maneevents/6581880


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## Natch (16 July 2010)

7HL, will you, in the interests of objectivity, email the BHS (I believe lee hackett is the man) and ask them to confirm if a vet saw catwalk and if there was an injury of any kind?

If not then why not?

Thank you in advance for answering my questions.


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## vandypip (16 July 2010)

Think you are right. Parelli's message being the horse is ok, which of course he would be after such a short session.


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## 7HL (16 July 2010)

Naturally said:



			7HL, will you, in the interests of objectivity, email the BHS (I believe lee hackett is the man) and ask them to confirm if a vet saw catwalk and if there was an injury of any kind?

If not then why not?

Thank you in advance for answering my questions.
		
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Don't have the email address, but you can PM me with if you want.

Not sure it's really any of my business or others.

I truly believe the issue is in Mr Whittakers court. And he doesn't owe anyone  any explanation.



_going to attend to my horse...._


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## vandypip (16 July 2010)

This will happen again. Not necessarily with Parelli, but it will. It is going on every day, just not in the public eye and not out of your pocket. Attacking Parelli will not eradicate the true problem.


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## Tannis (16 July 2010)

7HL said:



			Maybe because it didn't happen.



So if I subscibe to Horse and Hound and I don't like what they print, publish I can sue them for failure to produce what I perseve what they advertised they would deliver?

Does that go for Movies, Music, Play Books etc? If I don't think a Movie presents what is advertised I can sue them? Why not just get your money back? Or better yet, leave and don't go again.
		
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Your choice.

The law is there if you want to use it.


And as for your questions, ask any corporate legal team - the answer is yes, if something is advertised, it has to deliver what it has advertised.

In this case, the publicity material was very specific and the use of the words that were used means that the event was obliged to deliver what it set out in its publicity.  Had it just said something general such as "come along and see Person x with problem horses" then no-one could complain.  But the wording used in this specific case said no force, no dominance, sharing of experience.  Some members of the audience felt that wasn't delivered.  And so long as "some" members didn't agree and they can compile evidence to support their argument then, yes, they have a claim.  They may not win but there is nothing to stop them submitting a claim.  And if that person feels very strongly, and was emotionally distressed or had their "enjoyment of their purchase" compromised then they are entitled to ask for compensation.  That's the law, not me putting a spin on it.

The simple matter of fact is that the people who were distressed will struggle to prove abuse but they have a much better chance of bringing a claim under Sales of Goods and that will, effectively have the same end if what they perceive as abuse is penalised.

It's so clear cut - this demonstration was not what was advertised.  Just look at the words that were used and look at the evidence that has been put forward.  So far, the evidence that has been provided - even if it is wrong and is taken completely out of context - supports that allegation.  If someone wants to challenge the allegation - then put forward evidence ie the whole 3 hours (or however long it was).  Opinion, argument and vitriole are not evidence.



Sales of Goods Act (1979)


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## pippinpie (16 July 2010)

vandypip said:



			Think you are right. Parelli's message being the horse is ok, which of course he would be after such a short session.
		
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Thanks for the reply, thats is if it was aimed at my last post.
When you (one) hears something repeated over and over you start to think that there is only one explanation, sometimes you have to think laterally to see any other possible explanations, but so many have jumped to only one explanation which fits in with their opinion.


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## vandypip (16 July 2010)

Tannis said:



			Your choice.

The law is there if you want to use it.


And as for your questions, ask any corporate legal team - the answer is yes, if something is advertised, it has to deliver what it has advertised.

In this case, the publicity material was very specific and the use of the words that were used means that the event was obliged to deliver what it set out in its publicity.  Had it just said something general such as "come along and see Person x with problem horses" then no-one could complain.  But the wording used in this specific case said no force, no dominance, sharing of experience.  Some members of the audience felt that wasn't delivered.  And so long as "some" members didn't agree and they can compile evidence to support their argument then, yes, they have a claim.  They may not win but there is nothing to stop them submitting a claim.  And if that person feels very strongly, and was emotionally distressed or had their "enjoyment of their purchase" compromised then they are entitled to ask for compensation.  That's the law, not me putting a spin on it.

The simple matter of fact is that the people who were distressed will struggle to prove abuse but they have a much better chance of bringing a claim under Sales of Goods and that will, effectively have the same end if what they perceive as abuse is penalised.

It's so clear cut - this demonstration was not what was advertised.  Just look at the words that were used and look at the evidence that has been put forward.  So far, the evidence that has been provided - even if it is wrong and is taken completely out of context - supports that allegation.  If someone wants to challenge the allegation - then put forward evidence ie the whole 3 hours (or however long it was).  Opinion, argument and vitriole are not evidence.



Sales of Goods Act (1979)
		
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Basically this appears to be the problem. A case of buyer beware!!!!


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## Onyxia (17 July 2010)

vandypip said:



			This will happen again. Not necessarily with Parelli, but it will. It is going on every day, just not in the public eye and not out of your pocket. Attacking Parelli will not eradicate the true problem.
		
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Yes it is-and whoever is doing it is disgusting.
There is no way any yard I have been on would tolorate someone acting in the way PP did. End of story.We stop the people who would do this sort of thing at home by making it clear is it not accetable.

However,those people are NOT at a demo either showing off their "uber skills" or atempting to teach.THAT is why someone in PP's position doing it has an extra kick.
Pro's riding in over tight draw reins don't get a nice time either,H&H is a discussion board and pretty much everything gets discussed-when we are talking about bad practise no-one is left out because of who they are or jumped on for the same reason.
There are trainers I am not keen on and would never go to watch or have a lesson with IRL but I would never say a bad word about that because while I personaly do not like their methods they are not wrong.
PP's at that time,in that place WERE.

Once again(and I think I will ask every time I come back to post on this thread from now on  ) _what did Catwalk do when his groom tried to put the bridle on before PP's demo and what is his reaction to it now? _ .
The only possable "excuse" for the rough treatment is that he was a violent danger to anyone putting a bridle on.
There has been nothing to show that,only PP saying he was an extreme case.
I have known horses that really were(ears flat back,charging kicking biting at the sight of a bridle) and we as the staff overcame it with kindness and good old fashioned time.
If we as normal people can do it ,the self proclaimed "greatest horseman in the world" shoudl be able to as well!


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## Bay_Beasty (17 July 2010)

**** Does mega dance*****

made it to the end of the thread. it took me 2 days ad its v late but 'I read it all, well mostly apart from the last few posts as got confused and eyes went blurred and had so much to say all the way through but had to get to the end. 

Well I have been interested in this and I have to Say T n C has opened my eyes and even though some other parellians have tried to 'Show me the light' what she has said has stuck in my mind. I got confused and I am still not sure if Robert was there all the way through or not. but the way i see it he wasnt, but was there at the end, probs came back to pick his horse up as didnt relaise it would be going on for so long. I think Catwalk did have a cut on his lip but if there was a show sat, I just dont know. 

How i see it, is Pat's mistake in his lack of communication and ability to explain what he as doing, his also arrogance that he has not educated all his "staff" to the same level he has so they also seem clueless on why he did what he did. He has also preached and preached abut how he is for the horse and keeps it natural and doesn't want to bully the horse and on that night he did just that in front of a crowd. We will NEVER see the film, it will never become available and we will unlikely ever get a statement from Pat as that would mean he would have to admit he was wrong and went against his mission statement. 

I have seen a gum line used my Kelly Marks years ago and you know what it achieved, BS, the horse was scared and I have NEVER got my respect back for Kelly Marks since and I was 8/9 at the time (now 24) and I was treated to it for my birthday and I, at the time stood up and said she was being cruel, through tears I may say, and got laughed at.
However I have witnessed crueler stuff happen to horses in front of me since, and been better able to defend my point.  

Any way I am going off topic. I hope Catwalk is Ok, he is all I care about. Pat Parelli will NEVER take over the UK as he has done in the US an you know why, we have a brilliant relationship with our horses already and most dont need Parelli to show us how to get what we what out of our horses. That's why we get so upset with Parellites who are arrogant. There is more than one way to skin a cat!!!. I have met just as arrogant non parellians who are adament there way is the only way too, both sides are just as guilty. I just dont want animals to be harmed unneccesarily. But I am afraid there is not enough evidence to make a serious investigation into this particular case, I may be wrong.  

This is all I have to say. I am very tired and need to go to bed and I am sorry if I have made a lot of spelling mistakes.


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## tongue~n~cheek (17 July 2010)

bay_beasty said:



			**** 

Well I have been interested in this and I have to Say T n C has opened my eyes and even though some other parellians have tried to 'Show me the light' what she has said has stuck in my mind.....

Pat Parelli will NEVER take over the UK as he has done in the US an you know why, we have a brilliant relationship with our horses already and most dont need Parelli to show us how to get what we what out of our horses. That's why we get so upset with Parellites who are arrogant. There is more than one way to skin a cat!!!. I have met just as arrogant non parellians who are adament there way is the only way too, both sides are just as guilty.
		
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Thank You and I agree.  You are a special person to go from, hating parelli and anyone who stood near him, being so mad at me and my stupid joke, to becoming a trusted friend.  I would honestly do anything to come over there and give you a big hug.  your wonderful words, both on the thread and in PM, have brought nothing but tears to my eyes.  you have been part of making a 10yo dream come true.  that with the right attitude, we can not only get along peacefully, but come come to understand the other sides point of view with out hatred, and ultimately become friends, and if nothing else to peacefully agree to disagree.  I cannot thank you enough.

I have not read any part of this thread since sunday, so I have no idea what all is going on.  Just a thank you, to those who have contributed and those that have signed the petition.


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## Natch (17 July 2010)

7HL said:



			Don't have the email address, but you can PM me with if you want.

Not sure it's really any of my business or others.

I truly believe the issue is in Mr Whittakers court. And he doesn't owe anyone  any explanation.



_going to attend to my horse...._

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Its freely available on the internet - l.hackett@bhs.org.uk.

The reason I encourage you to speak to the BHS is so that then you will have all information to hand, since you appear to wish to defend the claims that catwalk gained an injury.


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## Tinypony (17 July 2010)

I can answer one question for everyone.  By now, it will be easy to bridle Catwalk.  Much as we may be attracted to the idea of the noble stallion that "won't put up with" things, what Pat did, and the work he's been doing since, will work and the horse will be bridled.  I think for many of us it's the "how" that we are questioning, not whether or not it will work.


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## KitKat_89 (17 July 2010)

In case anyone interested hasnt seen these yet:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzOqBZRjYoY - 'open letter' from PP

http://www.shareparelli.com/node/7558 - In one of the first paragraphs there is a description of how catwalk had to be bridled before the demo.

ETS: Oops! didnt see there is already a thread about the  1st link. sorry!


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## Kiwikid (17 July 2010)

Over the past week I have had many letters from people disgusted at what they saw. I have read virtually every blog on this website and having been around what they call Natural Horsemanship for a decade - nothing surprises me - the blind devotion of the faithful - or the animosity of the PNH haters!  However if one cuts through this and looks sensibly at what should be the main focus of concern of everyone - the horse. What is the missing element from the equation?  Pain! - whether it be emotional, physical, or imbedded memory. In general a vet does not check minutely for these things and I have never known a Parelli Instructor to either - especially not Pat the ultimate cowboy. Perhaps if the horse had been examined by a dentist - or a person trained to locate and address pain in the horse, especially around the head and ears - a different result may have been achieved. Or perhaps Pat told - 'this horse is not suitable for a demonstration'. Unfortunately for Pat this exhibition ended up being an  excellent demonstration to the intelligent horsemen of UK just how much show business bull**** he has been spouting to his adoring fans for years.


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## Alexart (17 July 2010)

Just read PP's response - dear god is he up his own arse!!! - what a crock - he is going on about passive techniques - I don't know what he classes as passive but a lip chain in my book is not passive!!!
The Whittikars have only had the poor horse for 8 weeks - so he's not even had much of a chance to settle into his new home yet - let alone his handlers having time to work with him little and often to overcome this problem.  And by the sounds of it he was not that bad before - just sounds like he was awkward, didn't trust his new handlers, and is basically taking up time they don't have on a busy yard.  I have seen screwed up horses that have gone over backwards when you try and go near their heads, so to do the extreme techniques on a horse that isn't really that bad on a horse for hours at a demo just to put on a show and prove a point is shameful!!!!

I am all for natural horsemanship ie common sense, and am a big fan of Claus Hempfling but this is far from natural - this is just using force and wearing a horse down to the point of mental and physical exhaustion over a long period of time to "solve" a problem in front of an audience!!  Makes me angry I can't even watch most of the Parelli **** as it is just cringeworthy!!!!!


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## Baymillie (17 July 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gf7w_1ifus

Here is the vid


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## ester (17 July 2010)

better half... I think its very telling on that michael peace vid that he says its not dramatic and its not exciting.


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## Onyxia (17 July 2010)

KitKat-thankyou 
Does not sound like an extreme case at all to me(we had one lad who would boot the hell out of you just for having a bridle in the box with him,that I would call extreme) but then what do I know ?  




			Linda displayed amazing patience, how 'taking the time it takes' sometimes feels frustrating and boring, but is so necessary for the horse that a true horseman will make the effort
		
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Did she forget to tell the OH that?


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## Abracadabjar (17 July 2010)

Im sorry but I have just read pp "open" letter, well to say my blood is boiling is an understatment and well lets just say what a crock of sh*te!!!


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## vandypip (17 July 2010)

Catwalk is one of 3 most extreme cases parelli has worked with? Didn't he say casper was the worst? the ranch he bought casper from, or Dial Bar Hemp Moon to use his correct name, is very proud to stand his son and of his lineage. This particular son is quite well thought of and they openly state that they sold pat casper. Not something you'd do if you'd sold a lunatic surely???


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## Tinypony (17 July 2010)

I think it's very sad.  I don't hate Parelli, I disagree with a lot of it nowadays but I learnt a lot of useful things from the programme.


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## tongue~n~cheek (17 July 2010)

this is all I have to say about the matter

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMKScopMnKI&NR=1


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## brighteyes (18 July 2010)

tongue~n~cheek said:



			this is all I have to say about the matter

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMKScopMnKI&NR=1



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If you are American, how on _earth_ did you know about that?  It's EXACTLY what I was thinking, that very same advert.


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## mulledwhine (18 July 2010)

Sorry cannt read anymore, the more I see about parelli, the more I hate it, what happened to good old fashioned common sense.

All I will say is my boy went away pefect, he went on loan for 18mths, and came back having broken the mans arm, and taking 18ths to get back to 'liking' me.

PARELLI, save your  money and engage brain, it is next to bullying.


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## tongue~n~cheek (18 July 2010)

brighteyes said:



			If you are American, how on _earth_ did you know about that?  It's EXACTLY what I was thinking, that very same advert.
		
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I am an american.  someone, likely living in UK, posted it on the savvy club.  whick BTW, while we all are not all in agreement there, we seem to have crossed (nearly crossed) the finish line to discussing it.  we are kinda like that there.  discuss till we are blue in the face, agree to disagree, and move on quickly back to playing with our horses.

I just thought I would share it, as i found it ooooohhhhh so relevent.


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## AengusOg (18 July 2010)

What about the horse's point of view?


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## tongue~n~cheek (18 July 2010)

AengusOg said:



			What about the horse's point of view?
		
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EXACTLY


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## better half (18 July 2010)

If you set up a situation to make you look like a hero, horses can be very humbling


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## actions-speak-louder (18 July 2010)

A Parelli Professional/s, filmed the whole event - one could see the whole unedited event if one were to release it and one had nothing to hide.  Unedited mind, not hobbled together, did I say hobbled, I meant cobbled.


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## independentthinker (18 July 2010)

Just noticed on the Horse and Hound main news page that Carl Hester was eliminated from a competition at Hartpury because blood was coming from his horse's mouth. Want to comment on that horse lovers? A horse in a grand prix test bleeding?

I'd love to see this video of the whole Catwalk thing as I didn't see it but wouldn't it be interesting to also see some vid on youtube of all the things that go on at everyday horse shows and events in the name of normal horsemanship? 

You know ..the people being dragged around, the horses that pull back when tied to the trailer, the loading disasters, the whacking the nappy horse to go in the arena, the horse asked to do round after round of showjumping in the heat, the horse that gets yanked in the mouth or his mouth sawed on with the bit for not working in "an outline". 

Don't forget to smile and wave when someone's filming you - you could be on telly, and of course you wouldn't object would you because you wouldn't mind at all having the world see how you train your horses?


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## baymareb (18 July 2010)

independentthinker said:



			Just noticed on the Horse and Hound main news page that Carl Hester was eliminated from a competition at Hartpury because blood was coming from his horse's mouth. Want to comment on that horse lovers? A horse in a grand prix test bleeding?

I'd love to see this video of the whole Catwalk thing as I didn't see it but wouldn't it be interesting to also see some vid on youtube of all the things that go on at everyday horse shows and events in the name of normal horsemanship? 

You know ..the people being dragged around, the horses that pull back when tied to the trailer, the loading disasters, the whacking the nappy horse to go in the arena, the horse asked to do round after round of showjumping in the heat, the horse that gets yanked in the mouth or his mouth sawed on with the bit for not working in "an outline". 

Don't forget to smile and wave when someone's filming you - you could be on telly, and of course you wouldn't object would you because you wouldn't mind at all having the world see how you train your horses?
		
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This seems to be a popular argument against any outcry about Parelli.  But it's a strawman.  Parelli was putting on a demonstration to the public, billed as a chance to see a man use methods that did not include force or restraint (sorry - the exact wording is somewhere in here but I'm too tired to look for it).  The outcry is because he DID use exactly those things.

We all know abuse and mistreatment happens all the time.  It's not limited to Pat Parelli and it's not limited to traditional horse training.  All of it is wrong and should be pointed out.  But when a person is billed as one thing and shows another, people are apt to be upset.

And just because other horsemen do terrible things to their horses doesn't mean we should let Parelli off the hook if people think he did wrong.


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## better half (18 July 2010)

There is a better way

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gi...6795396&ref=mf 

For the Good of the Horse - learn more


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## Shysmum (18 July 2010)

please read the BHS response to all this under thread "BHS statement" - I think it says exactly what most of us wanted to hear from them, and is very encouraging   sm x


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## henryhorn (18 July 2010)

I thought I would try and see the parelli peoples' reaction to the furore on facebook, but guess what, you can't make any comment...
Lots of self satisfied smug comments about how blind everyone on H and H forum are, how we can't "see" what they can see or have had an enlightening moment therefor will never understand.
Why is it the overall image I get of parelli people are the sort of oddballs you see on DIY yards, usually those who have immense problems with their horses and have traipsed from intructor to instructor never really improving that much.
I've yet to find a UK professional who either trains riders or horses for a living coming out and saying good things about them. One event rider was associated with them but she seems to have disappeared off the scene, and I find them on the whole incredibly ignorant of the way so many of us quietly go about our horse businesses providing nice sane trained horses for people to have years of fun on.
Am I vain in saying I don't need to watch their daft videos of teaching horses to jump over barrels etc, that's the sort of trick we did as kids for fun, same as jumping bridleless etc, we did it for fun!
When I see perhaps Jennie Loriston Clark, Pippa Funnel, Frankie Dettori, Graham Fletcher having a lesson on "How to" from a parelli teacher then perhaps I will give them some respect, until then they appear a load of money making (I have nothing against making money mind!) prats who are preying on the feeble members of the equine ownership.
Their constant bleating of "We are special, we see what you can't see " is wearing thin, my response is and always has been, "Actually it's because we can see what's going on we don't give you any credence.."


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## Bay_Beasty (18 July 2010)

henry horn have you ventured onto the savvy forum......??? i


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## henryhorn (18 July 2010)

No, only found the parelli horsemanship notes page, what's it under, Savvy?


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## Bay_Beasty (18 July 2010)

No idea, just thought that might be where you got the info about how the H and H are all 'backwards' and will be shown the light, you could probs google Savvy Forum but I expect you have to pledge allegance to Pat and Linda, coupled with a small fortune before being able to post   

Have you red the thread by Tongue and Cheek?? the Ask a Parelli student .... now holds barred one?? its fantastic and trust me not a 'you just don't understand we will show you all the light' type of Parelli user?


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## LottieNoo (18 July 2010)

Lets face it the Parelli's are in it for one thing and one thing only MONEY I was witness to them warming up for a demonstration at Windsor horse show a couple of years ago when they lunged a horse round and round and round for a long time.  So long that it went on for the full time of the cob class I was watching which had a really large field, no wonder their horses behave and can be ridden bareback they are exhausted.  

Natural Horsemanship - sorry a money spinning venture conning people who would like a better relationship with their horse.  I mean seriously,  standing horses on barrels and making them behave like circus elephants is just  degrading for the animals and pointless   - There is only one way to get that relationship with your horse- spend time with it, get to know it and treat it with RESPECT.  The stallion didn't like wearing a bridle - SO WHAT does every human being like wearing shoes no we don't so why do we expect horses to like everything we do to them?

I only wish that these large venues and the media would stop punting the Parelli's and focus on real trainers and instructors rather than the gimmics and the gadgets.


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## Shysmum (18 July 2010)

I think it would have to be a very brave UK venue to feature Parelli ever again, after all this   Think of all those rotten tomatoes and eggs- no-one would allow a horse to be subjected to that, let alone the following demo.


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## zefragile (18 July 2010)

independentthinker said:



			Just noticed on the Horse and Hound main news page that Carl Hester was eliminated from a competition at Hartpury because blood was coming from his horse's mouth. Want to comment on that horse lovers? A horse in a grand prix test bleeding?
		
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Are you insinuating that Carl mistreated Liebling? The horse apparently bit his tongue, it's not relevant in any way to this Parelli thing. I think it's awful that you would say something like this.
I agree with you about the everyday things that happen, though. They're just as bad as what Parelli is accused of doing.


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## toffeesmarty (18 July 2010)

An observation from being at a large show lorry park yesterday:

Why was it that every horse who was refusing to load was wearing a NH/Parelli halter and being cajoled using carrot sticks?
Why after an hour of trying were these same horses not loading?

I know someone who told me on the way back from a week long P course her horse wasnt 'happy' about loading so the P trainer kept trying for 3 hours until ponio walked into trailer with a 'happy' expression.


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## pippinpie (18 July 2010)

toffeesmarty said:



			An observation from being at a large show lorry park yesterday:

Why was it that every horse who was refusing to load was wearing a NH/Parelli halter and being cajoled using carrot sticks?
Why after an hour of trying were these same horses not loading?

I know someone who told me on the way back from a week long P course her horse wasnt 'happy' about loading so the P trainer kept trying for 3 hours until ponio walked into trailer with a 'happy' expression.
		
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Maybe you should ask that question on the thread 'Ask a Parelli student' maybe you might get the correct answer!

Edit. using a certain item of tack does not mean you know how and why you are using it.


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## pippinpie (18 July 2010)

LottieNoo said:



			..............................
Natural Horsemanship - sorry a money spinning venture conning people who would like a better relationship with their horse.

[[[[[I'm sorry I've not been conned as you put it, why do you think that the people who 'do' Parelli are some what stupid and gullible? thats just insulting, and as narrow minded as people who think anyone who isn't white is a terrorist!!]]]]]]

I mean seriously,  standing horses on barrels and making them behave like circus elephants is just  degrading for the animals and pointless   -

[[[[ Horses who stand on those barrels are in fact standing on what they see as a safe'comfort spot, a place where they can relax and feel safe, takes a lot of trust on the horses behalf to do that, its no circus trick.]]]]


 There is only one way to get that relationship with your horse- spend time with it, get to know it and treat it with RESPECT.  

[[[[[ I totally agree ]]]]]]]]]

PS I'm sorry I don't know how to highlight my words

QUOTE]
		
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## Bay_Beasty (18 July 2010)

pippinpie said:



			Maybe you should ask that question on the thread 'Ask a Parelli student' maybe you might get the correct answer!

Edit. using a certain item of tack does not mean you know how and why you are using it.
		
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Good point!! Well said!


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## PapaFrita (18 July 2010)

pippinpie said:



			Horses who stand on those barrels are in fact standing on what they see as a safe'comfort spot, a place where they can relax and feel safe, takes a lot of trust on the horses behalf to do that, its no circus trick.
		
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Please explain the rationale behind that. Why does the 'safe' spot have to be on a barrel, as opposed, say, to next to you?
Frankly I don't see the point of the 'tricks'. I don't need to make my mare stand on barrels to know she trusts me. She has placed her trust in me in countless ways over the years and to 'test' this trust by asking her to stand on a barrel (I know she would try, by the way) would in MY mind, be an insult to the relationship we have. But that's probably just me.


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## vandypip (18 July 2010)

Big fat horse on a barrel looks impressive in show situation.


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## pippinpie (18 July 2010)

PapaFrita said:



			Please explain the rationale behind that. Why does the 'safe' spot have to be on a barrel, as opposed, say, to next to you?
Frankly I don't see the point of the 'tricks'. I don't need to make my mare stand on barrels to know she trusts me. She has placed her trust in me in countless ways over the years and to 'test' this trust by asking her to stand on a barrel (I know she would try, by the way) would in MY mind, be an insult to the relationship we have. But that's probably just me.
		
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The original question was 'Why do their horse stand on barrels' and that was the answer I gave, I could have given an extremely long and details answer that would have helped but I thought the answer I gave was concise and to the point.
Many many things can constitute a comfort/safe place you can use any place eg. a cone, a tree, a ramp, a horsebox any thing, it's a place where the horse can relax between being asked to do something. don't underestimate the power of neural for both horse and 'trainer'.


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## PapaFrita (18 July 2010)

vandypip said:



			Big fat horse on a barrel looks impressive in show situation.
		
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Depends who's looking, I guess.


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## PapaFrita (18 July 2010)

pippinpie said:



			The original question was 'Why do their horse stand on barrels' and that was the answer I gave, I could have given an extremely long and details answer that would have helped but I thought the answer I gave was concise and to the point.
Many many things can constitute a comfort/safe place you can use any place eg. a cone, a tree, a ramp, a horsebox any thing, it's a place where the horse can relax between being asked to do something. don't underestimate the power of neural for both horse and 'trainer'.
		
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That's not my question though. I would like the long and detailed answer please because I truly do find the idea of horses standing on barrels incredibly distasteful (along with some other Parelli activities, but I'll go into those later) and I don't understand why a horse needs a particular object to be 'safe'. What if you're at a show? Do you take the barrel with you? Is it like a comfort blanket? These are all genuine questions, by the way.


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## pippinpie (18 July 2010)

vandypip said:



			Big fat horse on a barrel looks impressive in show situation.
		
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Yes thats true 
But for a horse to explore something, first it has to touch it, then it will lick or bite it and if it gets really confident he will paw it and walk on it, or in this case stand on it.
I have a very sceptical young horse who wasn't very good to load two years ago, when I started to realise that he was doing it out of duty rather than because he felt comfortable doing it. Allowing him to 'nose, neck maybe the feet' as we say to gain confidence and not rush and panic whenever I have to box him, I'm now trying to get him to explore more and his confidence is growing. he's a much less stressed horse now that he is allowed to investigate what ever it is thats worrying him, rather than me giving him a whop and saying silly boy.


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## vandypip (18 July 2010)

Could make it look more impressive and put trunks on them!!!


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## Echo Bravo (18 July 2010)

Circus training comes to mind horses standing on barrels and havn't animals been banned from them in this country.
Most NH training comes down to basic commonsense and taking time. PP cuts corners and it seems most people nowadays want instant success, that is why I think Parellie is so successfull, people aren't wanting to put the time in.


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## pippinpie (18 July 2010)

vandypip said:



			Could make it look more impressive and put trunks on them!!!
		
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Your getting facetious now,(That one is in the Oxford dictionary  ) I was only answering a question obviously you're to not really being serious about wanting a sensible answer.


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## vandypip (18 July 2010)

Too right echo bravo. And that isn't true horsemanship. And where has the feel gone???


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## pippinpie (18 July 2010)

pippinpie said:



			The original question was 'Why do their horse stand on barrels' and that was the answer I gave, I could have given an extremely long and details answer that would have helped but I thought the answer I gave was concise and to the point.
Many many things can constitute a comfort/safe place you can use any place eg. a cone, a tree, a ramp, a horsebox any thing, it's a place where the horse can relax between being asked to do something. don't underestimate the power of neural for both horse and 'trainer'.
		
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Can I suggest that if you ask your question on thread 'Ask a Parelli student' T n C will give a far better answer to those really seeking to understand that question than I. I'm afraid I am not as used to dealing with Q & A as others. Thanks


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## Irishlife (18 July 2010)

pippinpie said:



			Yes thats true 
But for a horse to explore something, first it has to touch it, then it will lick or bite it and if it gets really confident he will paw it and walk on it, or in this case stand on it.
I have a very sceptical young horse who wasn't very good to load two years ago, when I started to realise that he was doing it out of duty rather than because he felt comfortable doing it. Allowing him to 'nose, neck maybe the feet' as we say to gain confidence and not rush and panic whenever I have to box him, I'm now trying to get him to explore more and his confidence is growing. he's a much less stressed horse now that he is allowed to investigate what ever it is thats worrying him, rather than me giving him a whop and saying silly boy.
		
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What you have described about making a young horse confident and allowing him to explore his environment is what any decent non Parellietic trainer would do anyway.  Our youngsters are positively encouraged and have play fights with feed sacks, see off umbrellas etc. When we were young we rode our ponies up a flight of stairs into a derelict stately home, rode without bridles and saddles steering with legs and the occasional tug on the forelock for brakes, jumped blindfold - the horses had so much trust in us because we had so much trust and belief in them that the mutual confidence engendered allowed us to do anything with them.

Do you go wow when you see a horse load itself into a trailer? Mine do that from 12 months of age. When one of those same foals was turned out to grass at 6 months just weaned, he walked for half a mile on the road wearing my daughters jacket on his back because she was too hot.

We take our time with our young horses, we are complemented on their mannerly behaviour. I use techniques handed down from my parents and those people who are quiet, patient and understanding of horses.

All this tom foolery with sticks, ropes smoke and mirrors is a gimmick for people who are not blessed with a good background in horses and like all the slimming clubs out there - why are they still in business? Diets don't work.

Equally why is Mr PP in business because there will always be those people with blind faith in a technique that completely ignores the fundamentals of horsemanship.

It is about time people learned horsemanship full stop so that when a horse bucks, rears won't load instead of calling for a cavalry quick fix - get back to basics. It may take you some precious time but that is all you need to make a relationship with ANY horse and progress with him.


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## siennamum (18 July 2010)

pippinpie said:



			Yes thats true 
But for a horse to explore something, first it has to touch it, then it will lick or bite it and if it gets really confident he will paw it and walk on it, or in this case stand on it.
I have a very sceptical young horse who wasn't very good to load two years ago, when I started to realise that he was doing it out of duty rather than because he felt comfortable doing it. Allowing him to 'nose, neck maybe the feet' as we say to gain confidence and not rush and panic whenever I have to box him, I'm now trying to get him to explore more and his confidence is growing. he's a much less stressed horse now that he is allowed to investigate what ever it is thats worrying him, rather than me giving him a whop and saying silly boy.
		
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You're only describing 'normal' horse management tho. Most people will allow their youngsters to explore and have a sniff and a paw at new things, including the ramp until they are confident enough to load.
The difference is that competitive riders have to use this in a progressive way. So the young horse starts exploring & building it's own confidence & confidence in the rider till it realises that it can trust whatever the rider asks and doesn't need to explore new things, just take them on face value.


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## PapaFrita (18 July 2010)

pippinpie said:



			Yes thats true 
But for a horse to explore something, first it has to touch it, then it will lick or bite it and if it gets really confident he will paw it and walk on it, or in this case stand on it.
I have a very sceptical young horse who wasn't very good to load two years ago, when I started to realise that he was doing it out of duty rather than because he felt comfortable doing it. Allowing him to 'nose, neck maybe the feet' as we say to gain confidence and not rush and panic whenever I have to box him, I'm now trying to get him to explore more and his confidence is growing. he's a much less stressed horse now that he is allowed to investigate what ever it is thats worrying him, rather than me giving him a whop and saying silly boy.
		
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Why on earth would you give him a whop?? Clearly if a horse is nervous/unsure about something, he should be allowed to investigate. That's common sense, Parelli didn't invent that. BUT what's a loading problem got to do with a barrel? If the horse doesn't like loading, then work with the ramp and the trailer or lorry, feed him/her in there. Allow them to leave if they want. Eventually take them for a short ride and build up.  Again, common sense.


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## pippinpie (18 July 2010)

siennamum said:



			You're only describing 'normal' horse management tho. Most people will allow their youngsters to explore and have a sniff and a paw at new things, including the ramp until they are confident enough to load.
The difference is that competitive riders have to use this in a progressive way. So the young horse starts exploring & building it's own confidence & confidence in the rider till it realises that it can trust whatever the rider asks and doesn't need to explore new things, just take them on face value.
		
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I agree  as horses get older and more confident they learn through repetitive experiences that they can take things at face value.
I have an older previous county  champion WH who still has thresholds relating to new things that happen in his world, like new people for instance, if I have new people in my yard he will be found at the back of his box, (he was horrible beaten before I had him) and they have to gain his trust from scratch.


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## PapaFrita (18 July 2010)

pippinpie said:



			Can I suggest that if you ask your question on thread 'Ask a Parelli student' T n C will give a far better answer to those really seeking to understand that question than I. I'm afraid I am not as used to dealing with Q & A as others. Thanks
		
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Well as you said you _could_ give a long and detailed answer, I assumed you could be prevailed upon to do so. I shall ask TnC on the other thread.


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## vandypip (18 July 2010)

Steady on!!! you're all sounding like you want to belong.


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## pippinpie (18 July 2010)

PapaFrita said:



			Well as you said you _could_ give a long and detailed answer, I assumed you could be prevailed upon to do so. I shall ask TnC on the other thread.
		
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 T n C is far more  able to give answers that me as I think she can type alot faster than me and I should really be making the dinner


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## Shysmum (18 July 2010)

I'm sorry, but teaching a horse to stand on barrels ? roflmao !!


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## vandypip (18 July 2010)

roflmao??? is that a parilli psydeneum???


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## pippinpie (18 July 2010)

vandypip said:



			Steady on!!! you're all sounding like you want to belong.
		
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 It's surprising what you can see when the mist clears and things become clearer. It still might be a monster but a least they're taking the time to take a second look.
I don't like football or the Grand Prix but I understand that others find them fascinating.


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## PapaFrita (18 July 2010)

vandypip said:



			roflmao??? is that a parilli psydeneum???
		
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Acronym? No. Strictly speaking it's an abbreviation; Rolls On Floor Laughing My A*** Off


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## vandypip (18 July 2010)

Phew!! thank god for that! thought I wasn't listening.


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## Shysmum (18 July 2010)

then again, you could always teach them to scrunch down a barrel of apples to make some scrumpy - would that work ?


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## vandypip (18 July 2010)

Careful!!!


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## pippinpie (18 July 2010)

vandypip said:



			Monster??? B******S!!! It's so old its new!!!!
		
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Go back to the school yard if that all you have to say and leave the genuine posters follow a more dignified debate. Only people who have nothing reasonable say need to mock and insult. grow up.


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## baymareb (18 July 2010)

I am pretty confident that my mare would climb up on a barrel with some encouragement but I don't really see the point.  As far as a safe place goes, I think her safe place is with me when not in her own stall.

She is only 5, off the track and always learning new things.  I let her do a lot of investigation - that's how every reputable horseman I've ever known has treated a young or unsure horse.  There's really nothing new under the sun - just a new label or marketing technique.


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## jahseh (18 July 2010)

To get away from pedestals and back to loading if a parelli trained horse was at a show it wouldn't take hours to load because if the person/owner/trainer who had the horse understood and followed the teaching and guidance given all that would have taken place before they went to the show. The mantra (lol) given on this would be "take the time it takes" and that is relevant even if the first time it takes lots of sessions of varying legnths over a period of days until the horse loaded itself or was loading happily. With if necessary lots of practice when you don't have anywhere to go. 
Yes this is common sense and good horsemanship which is for the most part exactly what the system teaches. It doesn't claim to be magic or claim to have invented itself out of fresh air, it acknowledges its origins but has been put together in an easy to follow coherent format. It is trying to get people back more towards the sort of thing you were talking about doing back in your youth.


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## pinkcatkin (18 July 2010)

I have read about a third of this thread but don't have the time to read it all.  Can somebody tell me whether the Whittakers have made any statement about this session?


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## pippinpie (18 July 2010)

pinkcatkin said:



			I have read about a third of this thread but don't have the time to read it all.  Can somebody tell me whether the Whittakers have made any statement about this session?
		
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Not as far as I know, but they have allowed the vet's report to be used in support of PP, which to me speaks volumes.


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## toffeesmarty (18 July 2010)

pinkcatkin said:



			I have read about a third of this thread but don't have the time to read it all.  Can somebody tell me whether the Whittakers have made any statement about this session?
		
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Around last Monday someone did post an apologetic response on behalf of the Whittakers. Caused a bit of controversy as their statement said they weren't watching the demo and couldnt comment on any cruelty accusations, however some of the posters who say they were at RFOH contradicted this by saying they had complained directly to Robert as they left.


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## lizfuller (19 July 2010)

jahseh said:



			To get away from pedestals and back to loading if a parelli trained horse was at a show it wouldn't take hours to load because if the person/owner/trainer who had the horse understood and followed the teaching and guidance given all that would have taken place before they went to the show. The mantra (lol) given on this would be "take the time it takes" and that is relevant even if the first time it takes lots of sessions of varying legnths over a period of days until the horse loaded itself or was loading happily. With if necessary lots of practice when you don't have anywhere to go. 
Yes this is common sense and good horsemanship which is for the most part exactly what the system teaches. It doesn't claim to be magic or claim to have invented itself out of fresh air, it acknowledges its origins but has been put together in an easy to follow coherent format. It is trying to get people back more towards the sort of thing you were talking about doing back in your youth.
		
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Really well written reply-I hope people have taken the time to read it........


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## vandypip (19 July 2010)

pippinpie said:



			Go back to the school yard if that all you have to say and leave the genuine posters follow a more dignified debate. Only people who have nothing reasonable say need to mock and insult. grow up.
		
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Pippinpie you are taking yourself far too seriously. I didn't realise that this had become a bona fida parelli thread. Or has it???


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## henryhorn (19 July 2010)

I'm sorry, this is new to me, horses need a barrel/cone to relax? 
I can't believe anyone really believes this guff...


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## dRats (19 July 2010)

better half said:



			There is a better way

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gi...6795396&ref=mf 

For the Good of the Horse - learn more

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Oh, ABSOLUTELY the way to do it! Far away from a demo situation, so right it's boring(almost)!


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## Natch (19 July 2010)

Irishlife said:



			What you have described about making a young horse confident and allowing him to explore his environment is what any decent non Parellietic trainer would do anyway.
		
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*Snigger* at Parellietic 

People who object to NH tend to raise this a lot - that its nothing new. 99% of those who follow NH agree with you  Even the most esteemed/hated (delete as you see fit) Mr P don't claim that it is anything new - although I think he puts a spin on it and says something along the lines of "its so old its new". 

Whats new is the people who don't have the skills acquired over time spent with horses. Maybe even those who haven't been fortunate to spend their life with a good old fashioned nagsman. In my opinion, NH only ever became a success because we (as a horsey nation) were in danger of losing those old skills.



Irishlife said:



			Do you go wow when you see a horse load itself into a trailer? Mine do that from 12 months of age. When one of those same foals was turned out to grass at 6 months just weaned, he walked for half a mile on the road wearing my daughters jacket on his back because she was too hot.
		
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Thats great, you obviously have a very good relationship and a good solid background in horse training skills, including a huge dollop of common sense. However, not everybody trains horses like you, thats why there are so many displays of tantrums, fear, naughtiness etc at shows - there are plenty of people out there who could do with being taught that there is a more sensible, kinder, more effective and less stressful way. NH is, IMO, one of the methods which could teach them that.



Irishlife said:



			All this tom foolery with sticks, ropes smoke and mirrors is a gimmick for people who are not blessed with a good background in horses
		
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I agree with you, but would re-phrase it slightly 




Irishlife said:



			and like all the slimming clubs out there - why are they still in business? Diets don't work.
		
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I don't see how NH compares to diets...? In my experience of slimming clubs, I start them, do reasonably well, get bored, stop going and put it back on - and repeat (incidently that is why they are still in business ). In my experience of NH, I can pick it up, get going with it and then not touch the relevant equipment for months because I'm busy riding or competing my horse - but when I go back to it, it generally takes about 15 minutes for my horse to remember the latest thing I taught him. A lot like my riding lessons - would you say riding lessons are lke slimming clubs? My horse still progresses with either method.




Irishlife said:



			It is about time people learned horsemanship full stop so that when a horse bucks, rears won't load instead of calling for a cavalry quick fix - get back to basics. It may take you some precious time but that is all you need to make a relationship with ANY horse and progress with him.
		
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Yes ABSOLUTELY - which is one of the reasons why there is outrage from within the parelli camp, as well as from "other" generic NH people about the catwalk incident - take the time it takes.


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## toffeesmarty (19 July 2010)

henryhorn said:



			I'm sorry, this is new to me, horses need a barrel/cone to relax? 
I can't believe anyone really believes this guff...
		
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One of the horses on my yard used to 'choose (owners words not mine) to have his feet trimmed while standing on his circus platform. It was ridiculous watching horse with front feet on a platform while farrier trimmed the hinds on the floor and then climbing onto platform to do fronts. Owner would say 'how sweet it was'. Spare me.


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## rushyj (19 July 2010)

Naturally said:



			Whats new is the people who don't have the skills acquired over time spent with horses. Maybe even those who haven't been fortunate to spend their life with a good old fashioned nagsman. In my opinion, NH only ever became a success because we (as a horsey nation) were in danger of losing those old skills.
		
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Really didn't want to bump this again but what you have said is the very core of the problem I personally have with the whole NH and Parelli format.

I feel that the above have been offered as a quick fix to experience and knowledge.  So many times I have seen fabulous youngsters ruined by people without the experience or knowledge to cope who believe that NH is the way forward and a short cut to enable them to handle these animals who are totally unsuited to them.

PP knows full well that people will follow his methods they see at a demo and believe these will work on their horses at home.  I just wish people will realise there is no quick fix with horses nor should there be.  Do your time put the years in and get to know your horses.


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## Natch (19 July 2010)

rushyj said:



			Really didn't want to bump this again but what you have said is the very core of the problem I personally have with the whole NH and Parelli format.

I feel that the above have been offered as a quick fix to experience and knowledge.  So many times I have seen fabulous youngsters ruined by people without the experience or knowledge to cope who believe that NH is the way forward and a short cut to enable them to handle these animals who are totally unsuited to them.

PP knows full well that people will follow his methods they see at a demo and believe these will work on their horses at home.  I just wish people will realise there is no quick fix with horses nor should there be.  Do your time put the years in and get to know your horses.
		
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I think we'll have to agree to disagree. I feel one of NH's benefits is that it can benefit those who don't yet have the experience and knowledge. Its a programme which aims to build knowledge, via experience, without leaving it down to chance - just like the BHS levels and qualifications do. 

Some people will always think they can handle horses which they aren't really up to - I don't think NH can be to blame for that, I just think its unfortunate that many people who are aiming above their station get all the gear, still have no idea but like to think they have. If it isn't a carrot stick and 12ft line its draw reins, grackles, flashes and god knows what bits and other gadgets - all tools which have their place, but its not in the hands of someone without enough training or experience.

All the NH, and BHS trainers I have had have all promoted safety and not trying to run before you can walk. *Natural Horsemanship is not supposed to quick fix problem horses.* it is just one of the many, many methods people could choose to use, and when done correctly IMO takes the time that the horse needs - just as with any other (good) method.


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## jahseh (19 July 2010)

rushyj said:



			Really didn't want to bump this again but what you have said is the very core of the problem I personally have with the whole NH and Parelli format.

I feel that the above have been offered as a quick fix to experience and knowledge.  So many times I have seen fabulous youngsters ruined by people without the experience or knowledge to cope who believe that NH is the way forward and a short cut to enable them to handle these animals who are totally unsuited to them.

PP knows full well that people will follow his methods they see at a demo and believe these will work on their horses at home.  I just wish people will realise there is no quick fix with horses nor should there be.  Do your time put the years in and get to know your horses.
		
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Yet again (sigh)
Parelli doesn't offer a quick fix, it is something you and your horse have to work at just the same as any other training format or system. As for the speed or lack thereof of any results; that depends on both the horse and handler.
Any variation in speed of results depends on the skill and understanding of the handler, again just as with any other system. You wouldn't expect a rider of olympic standard in dressage to need lessons and take ages to get or teach a horse to shoulder in; where a novice rider might. This doesn't prevent dressage riders giving demonstrations on how to teach any given movement it just means that those of us with less skill will have to take longer and may need extra help or tuition.
Parelli provides that help in dvd format, it's system of parelli professionals and with their savvy club. Just because people fail to seek out that help or take on only a little bit of the message is a very poor argument to stop sending out the message or providing the material.
Traditional training also has examples in abundance of people who through misunderstanding what they have seen or misjudging their level of expertise ruin or make the lives of their horses a misery. It is also very common to have horses with absolutely no manners who will barge, push run over etc. etc. because they have been loved loved loved, it is all a question of balance and education not sticking to dogma and rejecting information just because some people misunderstand or misuse that knowledge.
It is regretable that people ever stop having lessons and or seeking out more knowledge about any subject they find interesting and particularly in any hobby that involves another living being. Another saying often heard within the parelli community is "never ending self improvement" which encapsulates this philosophy.


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## fburton (19 July 2010)

I have often wondered... What "Level" is Pat Parelli at? And Linda?


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## pippinpie (19 July 2010)

henryhorn said:



			I'm sorry, this is new to me, horses need a barrel/cone to relax? 
I can't believe anyone really believes this guff...
		
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Please don't try and use my own stick to beat me with.

Someone asked why some Parelli horses stand on drums/pedestals, and I gave an answer, you didn't like my answer, but why do you feel the needed to ridicule me? says a lot about you!
I've been through the BHS system many years ago, and don't tell me that when a horse has learnt something you were not told to come into the center (stand by the instructor) and very soon that horse welcomed coming into the center because it knew that that was a place of comfort/safety/a place to relax. Absolutely the same thing it's not 'guff'


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## jahseh (19 July 2010)

toffeesmarty said:



			One of the horses on my yard used to 'choose (owners words not mine) to have his feet trimmed while standing on his circus platform. It was ridiculous watching horse with front feet on a platform while farrier trimmed the hinds on the floor and then climbing onto platform to do fronts. Owner would say 'how sweet it was'. Spare me.
		
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If the owner,farrier and horse were all happy doing it this way and it didn't cause major problems I don't understand your objection. Just because it looked different and the owner thought it was sweet how intolerent is that.


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## Shysmum (19 July 2010)

Did a search of "parelli images" and found these on google - 

First a barrel and a VERY unhappy horse 
	
	
		
		
	


	





another barrel -  
	
	
		
		
	


	





but then this - 
	
	
		
		
	


	





and then, and I sincerely hope this is not, this -
	
	
		
		
	


	





Like I say, just googled "Parelli Pictures" and up these came. If they are NOT, of course I'll ask admin to remove them immediately.  sm x


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## pippinpie (19 July 2010)

jahseh said:



			Yet again (sigh)
Parelli doesn't offer a quick fix, it is something you and your horse have to work at just the same as any other training format or system. As for the speed or lack thereof of any results; that depends on both the horse and handler.
Any variation in speed of results depends on the skill and understanding of the handler, again just as with any other system. You wouldn't expect a rider of olympic standard in dressage to need lessons and take ages to get or teach a horse to shoulder in; where a novice rider might. This doesn't prevent dressage riders giving demonstrations on how to teach any given movement it just means that those of us with less skill will have to take longer and may need extra help or tuition.
Parelli provides that help in dvd format, it's system of parelli professionals and with their savvy club. Just because people fail to seek out that help or take on only a little bit of the message is a very poor argument to stop sending out the message or providing the material.
Traditional training also has examples in abundance of people who through misunderstanding what they have seen or misjudging their level of expertise ruin or make the lives of their horses a misery. It is also very common to have horses with absolutely no manners who will barge, push run over etc. etc. because they have been loved loved loved, it is all a question of balance and education not sticking to dogma and rejecting information just because some people misunderstand or misuse that knowledge.
It is regretable that people ever stop having lessons and or seeking out more knowledge about any subject they find interesting and particularly in any hobby that involves another living being. Another saying often heard within the parelli community is "never ending self improvement" which encapsulates this philosophy.
		
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What a refreshing post so balanced and well put, even if I wasn't Pro Parelli I would admire your dignity and eloquence in putting your views forward, I wish I had your talent.


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## Tharg (19 July 2010)

shysmum said:



			please read the BHS response to all this under thread "BHS statement" - I think it says exactly what most of us wanted to hear from them, and is very encouraging   sm x
		
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  Hopefully they will boot them out of Stonleigh.  I'm with the BHS for insurance but the fact that parelli is based there makes me worried and gets me thinking about shifting my insurance elsewhere.


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## Shysmum (19 July 2010)

On that thread, Naturally has just posted that the BHS ARE investigating this incident (info via Lee Hackett). So very good news


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## AengusOg (19 July 2010)

Naturally said:



			I think we'll have to agree to disagree. I feel one of NH's benefits is that it can benefit those who don't yet have the experience and knowledge. Its a programme which aims to build knowledge, via experience, without leaving it down to chance - just like the BHS levels and qualifications do. 

Some people will always think they can handle horses which they aren't really up to - I don't think NH can be to blame for that, I just think its unfortunate that many people who are aiming above their station get all the gear, still have no idea but like to think they have. If it isn't a carrot stick and 12ft line its draw reins, grackles, flashes and god knows what bits and other gadgets - all tools which have their place, but its not in the hands of someone without enough training or experience.

*Natural Horsemanship is not supposed to quick fix problem horses.* .
		
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I disagree with this.

PNH is not designed to "build knowledge, via experience". It is aimed at total novices who seek ability without acknowledging the benefit of experience. It's a program of exercises which is meant to educate the handler and the horse simultaneously and, as such, is fundamentaly flawed...a bit like the blind leading the blind.

Anyone can buy a horse these days. There are no prerequisite conditions or criteria to be met. The only requirements are a bit of spare cash and somewhere to keep the horse. With some livery arrangements, all the owner has to do is turn up when they can. It seems that very few people realise the amount of work required to 'make' a horse, or even the importance of daily contact/work in the formation of a mutually beneficial relationship.

PNH gives people the impression that, with the purchase of DVDs, and certain items of tack and equipment, they too can be successful horse handlers and trainers and better placed to produce a horse than those experienced in so-called 'traditional' horsemanship. Indeed, many PNH adherents seem to think that, after a few months of a PNH 'education', they can teach all and sundry about horsemanship. Any program which gives its purchasers this illusion is, in my opinion, at best inept, and at worst dangerously irresponsible.

If that's not inviting people to aim 'above their station get all the gear, still have no idea but like to think they have', I can't imagine what you mean by that statement. 

If 'Natural Horsemanship is not supposed to quick fix problem horses', a statement with which I do agree, incidently, why did PP choose to attempt this with 'Catwalk'?


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## siennamum (19 July 2010)

Naturally said:



			*Snigger* at Parellietic 

People who object to NH tend to raise this a lot - that its nothing new. 99% of those who follow NH agree with you  Even the most esteemed/hated (delete as you see fit) Mr P don't claim that it is anything new - although I think he puts a spin on it and says something along the lines of "its so old its new". 

Whats new is the people who don't have the skills acquired over time spent with horses. Maybe even those who haven't been fortunate to spend their life with a good old fashioned nagsman. In my opinion, NH only ever became a success because we (as a horsey nation) were in danger of losing those old skills.

.
		
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I'm sorry Naturally, but I think you have just encapsulated the problem with most forms of NH for me.

I know there is nothing new in most of what is being promoted. I've been doing these common sense things for decades.

Most practitioners of NH absolutely assert not only  that they are doing something different, something better, they denigrate traditional forms of horsemanship. A PP defender said on this thread that I, and those like me, are of the 'kick it on' school of horsemanship. 

Which is it? Is it the 'kick it on' school or is it 'so old it's new'? You really can't have it both ways. Criticising traditional horsemanship on the one hand but claiming to be adopting old fashioned methods on the other.

It seems to me that the best bits of NH are those taken from traditional, common sense methods and the bits that are utter nonsense are the smoke and mirrors bits which are there to persuade the gullible not to just get some proper lessons. Although I agree that these systems are of use for those people who have no horse sense, actually the best way to get some horse sense is just to spend the next 5 years around horses at every opportunity, not assume you can get there in a month from DVDs.(and then sneer at anyone who has spent the last 10 years around horses)


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## Tinypony (19 July 2010)

Is that last photo so bad?  We don't know what's happening, but to me it looks as if the horse has just got the rope around it's legs and the person on the end is waiting to see if the horse can sort it out.  The horse isn't panicking (if it was it would be different).  I like my horses to be OK with a bit of rope around the leg to be honest.  I'd rather they stop and try to sort it out for themselves rather than panic.  Very good practise for legs in wire and similar accidents.  I suppose many people would panic and throw themselves down to unwind a rope if it gets between or around their horses legs, I don't, I just quietly wait and watch them work it out.  If they get upset I can always drop the rope and help them.  They don't though.
It's funny when I have visitors sometimes "Oh!  Quick!  He's stood on his rope!".  "Oh yes, so he has...".


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## Tinypony (19 July 2010)

"Most practitioners of NH absolutely assert not only that they are doing something different, something better, they denigrate traditional forms of horsemanship."

To be fair, "It's so old it's new" is one of Parelli's catchphrases.  Monty Roberts claims to have invented something new.


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## Shysmum (19 July 2010)

sorry, but it looks - wrong !!  So very wrong, on so many levels...


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## vandypip (19 July 2010)

Tinypony said:



			Is that last photo so bad?  We don't know what's happening, but to me it looks as if the horse has just got the rope around it's legs and the person on the end is waiting to see if the horse can sort it out.  The horse isn't panicking (if it was it would be different).  I like my horses to be OK with a bit of rope around the leg to be honest.  I'd rather they stop and try to sort it out for themselves rather than panic.  Very good practise for legs in wire and similar accidents.  I suppose many people would panic and throw themselves down to unwind a rope if it gets between or around their horses legs, I don't, I just quietly wait and watch them work it out.  If they get upset I can always drop the rope and help them.  They don't though.
It's funny when I have visitors sometimes "Oh!  Quick!  He's stood on his rope!".  "Oh yes, so he has...".
		
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 Doing tricks like this, you know he really should enter the film business instead of conning mere mortals out of thousands. Of course he's accidently the wrapped the rope round the horses legs silly billy!!


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## Tinypony (19 July 2010)

Maybe you don't do any work with ropes around your horse's legs.  It's not very "British", but is an excellent safety precaution with any horse.  When you are working with ropes low on a horse's legs they sometimes turn away from you as they feel the rope, and the result looks just like that photo.  It's not a circus trick, it's training.  If Parelli wanted to lift or control the leg with the rope he wouldn't have it in that position, because it wouldn't be effective.  
I may be a silly billy, but my horses are very cool about getting their legs tangled in things.


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## Tinypony (19 July 2010)

See?  That's what gets this forum it's dodgy reputation.  You try to have a sensible conversation with people and get sarky comments thrown at you. Good job I couldn't give a...


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## vandypip (19 July 2010)

Tinypony said:



			See?  That's what gets this forum it's dodgy reputation.  You try to have a sensible conversation with people and get sarky comments thrown at you. Good job I couldn't give a...  
	
	
		
		
	


	




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Fair comment Tiny pony but you can bet your bottom dollar that this display of rope useage originates from throwing horses, guilt maybe??? lets play a game with it!!!  my horses are ok with ropes around their legs too. And plastic bags, kids toys, dogs etc etc.


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## siennamum (19 July 2010)

No, I do agree with you Tinypony. When long reining I often allow the rein below the hocks & generally don't stress if they tread on the rope, or get it tangled. They will learn that it is not an issue.
Ideally if they tangled up they won't panic & if they can't free  themselves, they will wait for someone to sort it out for them calmly. I wouldn't contrive to wrap the rope around their legs, but am not paranoid if they do get in a muddle. Traditional horsesense is to use a tail bandage or similar to pick up feet, run up and down legs etc. to accostom the horse to having stuff round their legs/done to their legs. We have similar sessions with the hose.
Again NH borrowing from us 'kick it on' brigade...=)


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## Shysmum (19 July 2010)

http://central.parellinaturalhorset...-soldier-and-a-shop-assistant-have-in-common/

is this what you mean ?? Had to do a double take when I saw this.... the plot really does thicken, as this is the BHS place.

So you're right in asking the question.....how many BHS supporters will support this ?? And how does this affect the investigation ?


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## jahseh (19 July 2010)

QUOTE=siennamum;8751716]

It seems to me that the best bits of NH are those taken from traditional, common sense methods and the bits that are utter nonsense are the smoke and mirrors bits which are there to persuade the gullible not to just get some proper lessons. Although I agree that these systems are of use for those people who have no horse sense, actually the best way to get some horse sense is just to spend the next 5 years around horses at every opportunity, not assume you can get there in a month from DVDs.(and then sneer at anyone who has spent the last 10 years around horses)

Again
Nobody claims that a novice can get there in a month and definitely not purely from dvd's anymore than you could practice all the techniques and expertise in any number of the books on horse training that have been published when you don't have the practical skills necessary. 
The system provides both ways to check your own progress and or the ability to have a third party check that progress for you. Many people learn from seeing much better than from reading and some concepts are just easier to explain visually. Yet other people learn best when they do, the best methods of teaching  encapsulate all of that and more, however that doesn't stop any one method being offered and being successful in isolation.
Horse sense is not necessarily granted just because you are around horses for a given number of years. I and I am sure plenty of others have seen lots of examples of people with lots of experience doing lots of silly things (for example drop or grackle nose bands fitted so low they cover the soft part of the horses nostrils and so prevent the nasal passages flaring other than at the ends. Try placing your fingers gently on the soft bits of your own nose and then try and breathe deeply)
Nor does having horse sense mean you know it all and can't acquire more, horse sense does not have a finite limit as far as I know. 
Additionally if you spent  any number of years with horses and had no examples of others working with them, no one to offer advice and no tuition unless you were very lucky, clever, physically fit, had excellent observational skills, wonderful coordination and many other qualities you would be highly likely to make lots of mistakes and hurt yourself and or the horse in the process of acquiring that sense.
I have worked with horses having qualified through the BHS for many years but have found some new concepts, tips and techniques within the Parelli system. Some of these I find very enlightening others of less use. To dismiss a body of knowledge just because you already have horse sense makes no sense.


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## naturalned (19 July 2010)

Hi all,

I went to the Parelli demo on the Friday and saw a beautiful horse brought to its knees by so-called NH.

I am an NH fan and have developed my own style based on using diff trainers, reading, practising, listening and watching my own and other horses and working on my own confidence through hypnosis etc etc.

Anyway I was pretty distressed at what I saw last week, what a wonderful stallion and what a shame he was subjected to that sort of behaviour. For reference I completely concur with the previous outlines of what happened throughout the demo. 

I went to the demo with an open mind and the thought of learning something else from someone else having never really encountered Parelli before. I have to say disappointed and shocked do not describe my feelings strongly enough (but politeness wins). If this is what people think NH is then god help those of it who claim to use it.

What I saw was a classic case of PP not wanting to show that he needed more time. When will these practioners learn that patience and time are the two biggest requirements in NH (similar experience at Monty demo). 

I have to say I do spend time doing crazy things with barrels and big balls but largely because my old gelding can't really be ridden anymore and it keeps him physically and mentally better than if I lunged him round and round day after day. However anything I do I maintain a level of extreme patience, do not fix a time I must be finished by and always, always end on a positive when the horse and I feel good about what we have achieved (which by the way may simply be having a nice time together and may only have been 5 mins).

Apart from the obvious distress of the horse which upset me what I found the most annoying was the patronising tone of PP when he said at the end one of the most important things was 'for the horse to respect you but keep his dignity at all times'. There was no way that Stallion kept its dignity esp when it was on three legs, calling for other horses at the door. I was, and remain disgusted at PP.

So this begs the question what did I learn from this demo - I've thought long and hard about this. 

*Know when to stop.* 

If PP had stopped when he got his hands over its ears I would have had much more respect for his method. The only result of any interaction with a horse should be a good result and this episode was not.

Anyway I'll get off my high horse now and thank those people who have recognised that not all NH people follow the so - called cult, but that like many other horse owners whatever methods we practice or believe in, we simply want to share in the wonder of being with such beautiful animals.

Love to Catwalk, may happier times be round the corner.
NN


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## siennamum (19 July 2010)

jahseh said:



			QUOTE=siennamum;8751716]

It seems to me that the best bits of NH are those taken from traditional, common sense methods and the bits that are utter nonsense are the smoke and mirrors bits which are there to persuade the gullible not to just get some proper lessons. Although I agree that these systems are of use for those people who have no horse sense, actually the best way to get some horse sense is just to spend the next 5 years around horses at every opportunity, not assume you can get there in a month from DVDs.(and then sneer at anyone who has spent the last 10 years around horses)

Again
Nobody claims that a novice can get there in a month and definitely not purely from dvd's anymore than you could practice all the techniques and expertise in any number of the books on horse training that have been published when you don't have the practical skills necessary. 
The system provides both ways to check your own progress and or the ability to have a third party check that progress for you. Many people learn from seeing much better than from reading and some concepts are just easier to explain visually. Yet other people learn best when they do, the best methods of teaching  encapsulate all of that and more, however that doesn't stop any one method being offered and being successful in isolation.
Horse sense is not necessarily granted just because you are around horses for a given number of years. I and I am sure plenty of others have seen lots of examples of people with lots of experience doing lots of silly things (for example drop or grackle nose bands fitted so low they cover the soft part of the horses nostrils and so prevent the nasal passages flaring other than at the ends. Try placing your fingers gently on the soft bits of your own nose and then try and breathe deeply)
Nor does having horse sense mean you know it all and can't acquire more, horse sense does not have a finite limit as far as I know. 
Additionally if you spent  any number of years with horses and had no examples of others working with them, no one to offer advice and no tuition unless you were very lucky, clever, physically fit, had excellent observational skills, wonderful coordination and many other qualities you would be highly likely to make lots of mistakes and hurt yourself and or the horse in the process of acquiring that sense.
I have worked with horses having qualified through the BHS for many years but have found some new concepts, tips and techniques within the Parelli system. Some of these I find very enlightening others of less use. To dismiss a body of knowledge just because you already have horse sense makes no sense.
		
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You see that's another thing which irritates me about some NH practitioners. They make grand sweeping assumptions. 

You are implying that 'traditional' people stop learning, or are closed to new ideas. Earlier in the annals of this thread, we were classified as being in a box. It's very rude & really stupid, almost everyone I know has lessons. Most people moan about how much they don't know, the only people I know who claim to have all the answers and who seem stuck in a rut are in fact some NH people. They patronise us by assuming we all have our flash straps too low and assume that we also don't pick and chose from different types of trainer.

I have lots of different trainers and learn from different media, amongst others I have Tim Stockdale on DVD and Reine Klimke in a book, so what is your point exactly?


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## Tinypony (19 July 2010)

Surely most of you can understand that these nh style trainers aren't borrowing anything from the "kick on brigade" - if you want to call yourselves that?  Just as horsemanship in this country comes from a long line of tradition, so does the sort of work you see with the nh trainers who are well-known today.  Nobody is borrowing from anybody, it's just the way it is, horsemanship passed on down the generations.  Parelli owes a lot more to people like the Dorrance brothers than anything done in this country, because that is what he was exposed to when he was young.  I owe a lot of what I use to my traditional riding-school days, and I've built on that, and changed it in quite a lot of ways based on what I've learnt since.
And no, wrapping a leg with a rope isn't really a preparation for a game.  Well, it might be in Parelli but I don't think so.  It's just desensitisation and habituation.  If it's preparation for anything it would probably be hobbling. Which I haven't felt the need to do.
I can't help thinking that it's one thing to be outraged at what appears to have been some very shoddy treatment of a horse.  It's another when a large number of people on a forum decide they are anti everything to do with another branch of training, and even too close-minded to allow that anything that offers might be useful.  (I'm talking about the huge range of nh training now, not Parelli specifically).  I'm shocked that so many of you are obviously quite young, probably much younger than me, but so quick to dismiss ideas that are different.  Parelli has arguably given this style of horsemanship some bad press in this last week, but babies and bathwater... there are many very good horsemen that come into this category who have a lot to offer, with not a "circus game" in sight.
I'll edit that to say that not everyone is coming across as close-minded, but the p*ss takers are I think.  That's a shame, because we can all be so friendly to each other on the topics they like.


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## Tinypony (19 July 2010)

I was just thinking.  I have agreed all along that the event at Stoneleigh was questionable (wasn't there, so will wait the result of the investigation as to if it was considered abuse, certainly not something I'd let my horses go through).  I've not defended what Parelli did in any of the discussions, just tried to share some information about the much wider world of nh.  Yet I still feel I've got my back to a wall for some reason, mad isn't it?


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## martlin (19 July 2010)

I think you got a little 'backed against the wall' because you were trying to share broader ideas of NH on a thread that started with specific incident in mind... I don't disagree with a lot you are saying, but at times struggled to get my head around your message, so to speak, on occasions it just sounds a little like justification for PP, which I know it isn't.


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## Tinypony (19 July 2010)

Yep, but I was trying to respond to the people who broadened the thread out... with the photos for example LOL!
That's the problem isn't it?  You talk from an nh perspective and people assume you are refering to Parelli.  Any time you try to point out a positive aspect of nh style training, people think you are trying to defend Parelli.  I haven't been near Parelli for years.  I think this demonstrates just how little people know about the wider world of nh-style training, and just how different it can be to Parelli.  Most of the good trainers never use the term nh... which I why I keep saying nh-style.


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## martlin (19 July 2010)

I know you were just responding, TBH I think the thread should not have been broadened to start with as it only makes for arguments...
I'm as far away from so called NH as you can possibly be, but still people around here call me Horse Whisperer LOL! - apparently it is because I don't seem to lose my temper or get frustrated The thing is, of course I get frustrated and cross and so on, if you met some of my charges, you would see it's impossible not to at times, I just learnt not to react - so I might be seething inside, but keep my cool on the outside.
What I fail to understand is the reasoning behind all the tricks though... why would you bother to teach a horse to stand on a barrel FGS?


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## Tinypony (19 July 2010)

For fun?  I know people who do stuff like clicker who will play with getting their horses to stand on barrels.  I suppose it's not a bad idea to accustom your horse to standing on and walking over unusual surfaces and obstacles.  I've never needed my horse to climb on a barrel on a hack... but you never know... !
Liberty work with a horse can be great fun if the horse is nicely trained and enjoys it too.  I consider that a whole extra discipline to my horsemanship, although I don't have a liberty horse at the moment.
(Threads do divert don't they?  But then, so do converstations).


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## JessnGeorge (19 July 2010)

Despite the emotive side to this discussion. The facts remain:

The horse was distressed
Despite being stressed and distressed, force was used by people advocating "natural horsemanship"
At no point did PP say, "I think he's had enough/needs more time/this isn't the right environment to deal with this problem"
And, having seen Linda abuse a half blind horse, I will have nothing ever to do with the cult of parelli (not that I was tempted before)

Also, where was Robert Whittaker when this was going on because I'd have been tempted to whack Mr Parelli with his own carrot stick


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## martlin (19 July 2010)

Ah, if it's for fun that's fair enough, but if somebody tries to tell me that teaching my horses to stand on a barrel is absolutely necessary in order to somehow enhance our partnership, that's b******s
Neither making sure they go backwards if I twiddle the leadrope is any better than them going backwards is I say 'back', is it?


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## pippinpie (19 July 2010)

martlin said:



			What I fail to understand is the reasoning behind all the tricks though... why would you bother to teach a horse to stand on a barrel FGS?
		
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 Now you could answer that yourself if you do a little lateral thinking when you go through every possible reason why they do that, stop at the one that says 'an aid to helping the horse gain confidence, builds trust and allows relaxation' and you might be somewhere near the answer.
I hope that doesn't sound patronising but it was the best way to put it without appearing rude. it was your use of FGS that riled me not the question


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## jahseh (19 July 2010)

siennamum said:



			You see that's another thing which irritates me about some NH practitioners. They make grand sweeping assumptions. 

You are implying that 'traditional' people stop learning, or are closed to new ideas. Earlier in the annals of this thread, we were classified as being in a box. It's very rude & really stupid, almost everyone I know has lessons. Most people moan about how much they don't know, the only people I know who claim to have all the answers and who seem stuck in a rut are in fact some NH people. They patronise us by assuming we all have our flash straps too low and assume that we also don't pick and chose from different types of trainer.

I have lots of different trainers and learn from different media, amongst others I have Tim Stockdale on DVD and Reine Klimke in a book, so what is your point exactly?



No i never implied traditional people stop learning as a whole but that some did or were closed minded as are some parelli or NH people. The point being that the attitude is not exclusive to any one side.
As I have teaching qualifications through the BHS I might definitely be classed as 'traditional'. Although I am also studying the parelli programme and finding it very interesting particularly the ground work. I don't really appreciate being called a practitioner of any particular school as in the context you used it it was definitely intended as a derogatory term.
Where you may not have your flash strap too low surely you are not implying that it is fairly common to do so?
Nor did I say you and plenty of others don't take lessons or learn from other sources and I applauded that attitude but that being so why are you criticising others who choose different types or sources of learning?
As for sweeping statements I can't see I was particularly guilty of that where you certainly have.
		
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## Tinypony (19 July 2010)

Backup is a state of mind, and hopefully also an exercise of balance of the body.  I don't see any point in having a horse back up, from a wiggle of a rope or anything else, if the horse has tense muscles, head up etc.  A good backup underpins your ridden work, so you want the head in the correct position, neck soft, back lifted, hind end under...  
Anyway, gotta go, work to do!


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## martlin (19 July 2010)

pippinpie said:



			Now you could answer that yourself if you do a little lateral thinking when you go through every possible reason why they do that, stop at the one that says 'an aid to helping the horse gain confidence, builds trust and allows relaxation' and you might be somewhere near the answer.
I hope that doesn't sound patronising but it was the best way to put it without appearing rude. it was your use of FGS that riled me not the question 

Click to expand...

You are right, it sounds awfully patronising.
I still fail to understand how the horse is more confident, or relaxed for that matter whilst standing with it's four legs near enough together, on a platform, struggling for balance.


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## vandypip (19 July 2010)

JessnGeorge said:



			Despite the emotive side to this discussion. The facts remain:

The horse was distressed
Despite being stressed and distressed, force was used by people advocating "natural horsemanship"
At no point did PP say, "I think he's had enough/needs more time/this isn't the right environment to deal with this problem"
And, having seen Linda abuse a half blind horse, I will have nothing ever to do with the cult of parelli (not that I was tempted before)

Also, where was Robert Whittaker when this was going on because I'd have been tempted to whack Mr Parelli with his own carrot stick
		
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Ha ha!!! and basically you've hit the nail on the head


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## vandypip (19 July 2010)

Tinypony said:



			Surely most of you can understand that these nh style trainers aren't borrowing anything from the "kick on brigade" - if you want to call yourselves that?  Just as horsemanship in this country comes from a long line of tradition, so does the sort of work you see with the nh trainers who are well-known today.  Nobody is borrowing from anybody, it's just the way it is, horsemanship passed on down the generations.  Parelli owes a lot more to people like the Dorrance brothers than anything done in this country, because that is what he was exposed to when he was young.  I owe a lot of what I use to my traditional riding-school days, and I've built on that, and changed it in quite a lot of ways based on what I've learnt since.
And no, wrapping a leg with a rope isn't really a preparation for a game.  Well, it might be in Parelli but I don't think so.  It's just desensitisation and habituation.  If it's preparation for anything it would probably be hobbling. Which I haven't felt the need to do.
I can't help thinking that it's one thing to be outraged at what appears to have been some very shoddy treatment of a horse.  It's another when a large number of people on a forum decide they are anti everything to do with another branch of training, and even too close-minded to allow that anything that offers might be useful.  (I'm talking about the huge range of nh training now, not Parelli specifically).  I'm shocked that so many of you are obviously quite young, probably much younger than me, but so quick to dismiss ideas that are different.  Parelli has arguably given this style of horsemanship some bad press in this last week, but babies and bathwater... there are many very good horsemen that come into this category who have a lot to offer, with not a "circus game" in sight.
I'll edit that to say that not everyone is coming across as close-minded, but the p*ss takers are I think.  That's a shame, because we can all be so friendly to each other on the topics they like.
		
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  Agree. But the Dorrance brothers would probably be appalled at how the parelli's have used their wisdom to market a global money-making minefield.


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## jinglejoys (19 July 2010)

vandypip said:



			Agree. But the Dorrance brothers would probably be appalled at how the parelli's have used their wisdom to market a global money-making minefield.
		
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  They would probably wish they could've done it themselves they would've imparted their knowledge to more people that way


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## vandypip (19 July 2010)

jinglejoys said:



			They would probably wish they could've done it themselves they would've imparted their knowledge to more people that way 

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Actually I prefer to think they were the original western nags men and their dedication was to the horse not their pocket. Don't think they were that thick, they knew what thay knew and generously imparted their knowledge for no financial gain, this is where it was for "the horse", don't believe they had, would have had any other intentions, and considering the "rise" in NH exposure, believe they would still have strongly opposed globalisation because you can't buy the "feel"!!!!


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## PapaFrita (19 July 2010)

pippinpie said:



			Please don't try and use my own stick to beat me with.

Someone asked why some Parelli horses stand on drums/pedestals, and I gave an answer, you didn't like my answer, but why do you feel the needed to ridicule me? says a lot about you!
		
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Actually, all you said was that it provided a 'safe' zone and then suggested I ask TnC for a full and detailed explanation. I'm still only about half way through that particular thread.


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## fburton (19 July 2010)

better half said:



			I have not seen anyone with as much feel as Tom Dorrance and Michael Peace (U.K.)  Knowing it can be achieved should make us all work harder towards it.  Call it what you like!
		
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Leslie Desmond?

e.g.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HiEoFLOcUp8


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## Tinypony (19 July 2010)

Yes, I've seen her, she is very interesting.  When you watch there is a lot she is doing that she doesn't mention when she's talking.  
I think Steve Halfpenny has a pretty good feel as well, and I've seen Phillip Nye teach, and he is awesome.  Kind of puts Pat Parelli into the shade to be honest, but he's almost like a genius with horses, he's so intuitive.  We are lucky, there are some very interesting people around to learn from.


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## misterjinglejay (19 July 2010)

I was speaking to a new friend and her daughter today, and discovered that they were Parellians.

They had been to loads of demos by various NH people including Monty and PP, and both said that both Monty and PP had changed of late; getting 'angry' with the horses and seemingly frustrated, no longer a calm and measured approach. It was interesting to hear this first hand.

In working with horses, I unknowingly use NH but call it common sense.


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## pippinpie (19 July 2010)

better half said:



			Why in England do we not recognize and celebrate exceptional English Horsemen like Michael Peace and fall for smooth talking Americans.

In Denmark Michael is what they call 'World famous in Denmark', and they know their horses.

Click to expand...

That a good question, I'm going to look him up now


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## pippinpie (19 July 2010)

pippinpie said:



			That a good question, I'm going to look him up now 

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I can't find anything on you tube can you guide me anywhere else?


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## fburton (19 July 2010)

pippinpie said:



			I can't find anything on you tube can you guide me anywhere else?
		
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There are a couple of videos of Michael Peace at:

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=305146795396&ref=mf

including one of him working with a bridle-/head-shy horse.


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## Tinypony (19 July 2010)

I didn't celebrate Mike Peace because he'd already been celebrated.  I mentioned some Aussies just for a bit of variety.


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## impromptu (19 July 2010)

In response to some debate on horses standing on barrels.
Disclamer: I am not familiar with Parelli training techniques and don't know the basis for his use of barrels. In my effort to educate myself reguarding horses, I have stumbled upon Equine Studies Institute website. Its founder, Dr. Deb Bennett, PhD, has an interesting article on achieving proper collection, found here:

True Collection

On page 8, Dr. Bennett writes: "What teaching the horse to mount the drum does for him: it is a superb way to give the horse the experience of assuming the posture of collection - with one-tenth the work and ten times the fun, enjoyment, and learning."

Just sharing another horsemanship resource.


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## martlin (20 July 2010)

impromptu said:



			In response to some debate on horses standing on barrels.
Disclamer: I am not familiar with Parelli training techniques and don't know the basis for his use of barrels. In my effort to educate myself reguarding horses, I have stumbled upon Equine Studies Institute website. Its founder, Dr. Deb Bennett, PhD, has an interesting article on achieving proper collection, found here:

True Collection

On page 8, Dr. Bennett writes: "What teaching the horse to mount the drum does for him: it is a superb way to give the horse the experience of assuming the posture of collection - with one-tenth the work and ten times the fun, enjoyment, and learning."

Just sharing another horsemanship resource.
		
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That would be just the front legs though, which allows enough room for the horse's frame. If on that same drum there were to be 4 legs, the horse would keep struggling for balance and more likely than not dip onto the shoulder, thus negating the 'collection'.


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## YorksG (20 July 2010)

I'm sorry to be being a bit silly here, but I am still trying to imagine the look on our farriers face if I asked him to shoe my horse with it and him standing on a barrel


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## baymareb (20 July 2010)

yorksG said:



			I'm sorry to be being a bit silly here, but I am still trying to imagine the look on our farriers face if I asked him to shoe my horse with it and him standing on a barrel   

Click to expand...

This was my thought as well!  

My farrier used to shoe for a woman at my barn who has two lovely Paints.  He finally begged off because she also has a large cockatoo that she brings to the barn with her and the darn thing wouldn't leave him alone, landing on his back when he was trying to work and that sort of thing.  She, of course, thought is was cute.  

Come to think of it, I think she does Parelli.  Which is not to say that being inconsiderate with her bird is somehow typical for a Parelli student.  Just rather funny that's the case.

Actually, I will say her horses are very well behaved and she does ride them regularly.


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## jahseh (20 July 2010)

martlin said:



			That would be just the front legs though, which allows enough room for the horse's frame. If on that same drum there were to be 4 legs, the horse would keep struggling for balance and more likely than not dip onto the shoulder, thus negating the 'collection'.
		
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no not just the front legs when that happens the backlegs are well behind not at all going towards collection. When all four legs are on the pedestal the hind legs are up and under the body the hind end is in the engaged or collected  position. If the horse did dip onto the shoulder (something that doesn't happen very often when the horse knows the exercise) the horse would step forward off the pedestal


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## rushyj (20 July 2010)

jahseh said:



			Yet again (sigh)
Parelli doesn't offer a quick fix, it is something you and your horse have to work at just the same as any other training format or system. As for the speed or lack thereof of any results; that depends on both the horse and handler.
Any variation in speed of results depends on the skill and understanding of the handler, again just as with any other system. You wouldn't expect a rider of olympic standard in dressage to need lessons and take ages to get or teach a horse to shoulder in; where a novice rider might. This doesn't prevent dressage riders giving demonstrations on how to teach any given movement it just means that those of us with less skill will have to take longer and may need extra help or tuition.
Parelli provides that help in dvd format, it's system of parelli professionals and with their savvy club. Just because people fail to seek out that help or take on only a little bit of the message is a very poor argument to stop sending out the message or providing the material.
Traditional training also has examples in abundance of people who through misunderstanding what they have seen or misjudging their level of expertise ruin or make the lives of their horses a misery. It is also very common to have horses with absolutely no manners who will barge, push run over etc. etc. because they have been loved loved loved, it is all a question of balance and education not sticking to dogma and rejecting information just because some people misunderstand or misuse that knowledge.
It is regretable that people ever stop having lessons and or seeking out more knowledge about any subject they find interesting and particularly in any hobby that involves another living being. Another saying often heard within the parelli community is "never ending self improvement" which encapsulates this philosophy.
		
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Firstly please don't "Sigh" at me I have not patronised you and your beliefs I just don't agree with the whole NH package.

The whole NH is marketed as the way forward "at a lot of expense" and that you can achieve these things with your own horse so of course the "I have a large bank account, no clue about horses but I am gonna buy a big 3 year old warmblood stallion brigade" are going to latch onto it.  They are not going to opt for the traditional approach where god forbid they actually have to get on the horse and not play with it in a round pen with a carrot stick.

I have no problem with people using NH what I do have a problem with is when the traditional methods are dismissed as unenlightened.  Wasn't it PP himself that made the following quote about dressage riders?

"You see those dressage riders going around? tight rein = no brain"  

So please do not use dressage as an example as it clearly is not an educated area of equitation..

http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=110262


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## AengusOg (20 July 2010)

Forgive me if this has already been posted, but I found it on another (American) site...

http://www.youtube.com/user/ParelliTube#p/u/0/SzOqBZRjYoY


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## jinglejoys (20 July 2010)

rushyj said:



			"You see those dressage riders going around? tight rein = no brain"  

So please do not use dressage as an example as it clearly is not an educated area of equitation..

http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=110262

Click to expand...

He was not talking about the rider but the horse "The more we use the reins the less they use their brains"


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## rushyj (20 July 2010)

jinglejoys said:



			He was not talking about the rider but the horse "The more we use the reins the less they use their brains"
		
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He started the sentence with "You see those dressage riders going around"  who does that sound like he was talking about?  Did he make another PP statement after saying he was talking about the horses?


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## jahseh (20 July 2010)

rushyj said:



			Firstly please don't "Sigh" at me I have not patronised you and your beliefs I just don't agree with the whole NH package.

The whole NH is marketed as the way forward "at a lot of expense" and that you can achieve these things with your own horse so of course the "I have a large bank account, no clue about horses but I am gonna buy a big 3 year old warmblood stallion brigade" are going to latch onto it.  They are not going to opt for the traditional approach where god forbid they actually have to get on the horse and not play with it in a round pen with a carrot stick.

I have no problem with people using NH what I do have a problem with is when the traditional methods are dismissed as unenlightened.  Wasn't it PP himself that made the following quote about dressage riders?

"You see those dressage riders going around? tight rein = no brain"  

So please do not use dressage as an example as it clearly is not an educated area of equitation..

http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=110262

Click to expand...

Hello 
I didn't intend to patronise anyone, as you would have seen if you had read some of my other posts I am traditionally trained through the BHS and don't believe any one method of training has all the answers. The sigh was because people keep saying parelli offers a quick fix and this is simply not true and the point has been countered very effectively several times by myself and others.
I don't at all recognise your description of a NH brigade person as someone I have ever seen at a Parelli event or clinic. Indeed while I have seen lots of horses at them I haven't actually seen a warmblood other than a couple which were  instructors horses and they were ridden bridless so I don't think they had any trouble getting on and riding lol. 
Incidently stallions are not allowed at most parelli clinics certainly not at any lower levels I am not sure when or if they are allowed to attend.
Most parelli training is not done in a round pen it is only recommended for use at the start of liberty work, certainly for ground liberty work, I am not sure about the ridden liberty but I think probably not. There are three other things all ridden besides the ground work, freestyle, liberty and finesse and all are given importance. 
Also for people like myself who are only able to ride in a limited way or not at all ( I have a balance problem as my inner ear on one side is compromised by a tumour and i have 2 slipped discs) the ground work gives us more to do with animals we love.
As for my using dressage as an example why not I have never denigrated dressage in any way and the quote you have taken exception to says that a skilled dressage rider would acheive results a lot faster than a novice rider just as someone skilled in parelli techniques would acheive a faster result than a novice  who has not been following the system for long.


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## rushyj (20 July 2010)

jahseh said:



			Hello 
I didn't intend to patronise anyone, as you would have seen if you had read some of my other posts I am traditionally trained through the BHS and don't believe any one method of training has all the answers. The sigh was because people keep saying parelli offers a quick fix and this is simply not true and the point has been countered very effectively several times by myself and others.
I don't at all recognise your description of a NH brigade person as someone I have ever seen at a Parelli event or clinic. Indeed while I have seen lots of horses at them I haven't actually seen a warmblood other than a couple which were  instructors horses and they were ridden bridless so I don't think they had any trouble getting on and riding lol. 
Incidently stallions are not allowed at most parelli clinics certainly not at any lower levels I am not sure when or if they are allowed to attend.
Most parelli training is not done in a round pen it is only recommended for use at the start of liberty work, certainly for ground liberty work, I am not sure about the ridden liberty but I think probably not. There are three other things all ridden besides the ground work, freestyle, liberty and finesse and all are given importance. 
Also for people like myself who are only able to ride in a limited way or not at all ( I have a balance problem as my inner ear on one side is compromised by a tumour and i have 2 slipped discs) the ground work gives us more to do with animals we love.
As for my using dressage as an example why not I have never denigrated dressage in any way and the quote you have taken exception to says that a skilled dressage rider would acheive results a lot faster than a novice rider just as someone skilled in parelli techniques would acheive a faster result than a novice  who has not been following the system for long.
		
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I am speaking from experiences I have had watching some talented horses ruined by people badly following the NH format not horses that have been presented to demos.  

The horse I mentioned was a 2 year old Oldenburg colt who was standing 16.3... this horse was completely ruined by it's owner who did not have a clue..  he ended up completely headshy and nervous and had to be sent away to be restarted (traditionally)..  another talented cob who could not have even his stirrups length changed with a rider on he was so terrified and landed one of my grooms in hospital.  He had been in a NH home all his life until I got him. Another horse we purchased as 5 year old from a very well respected NH home who put my farrier on the deck 5 times the first time we tried to shoe him, nearly wiped out the dentist and napped so badly when he was ridden he was down right dangerous.  After a year and a half he is now the sweetest horse who now trusts people and respects them. Another fantastic dressage horse topping 17.3 that was broken and riding away sweetly was bought by a lady who was nervous at the best of times refused to get on him until she had done the NH ground work.  After 6 months she was still not on it she then recruited a traditional trainer to get on the horse which had obviously gone back to square 1, eventually the owner started riding the horse which she was terrified of, would not admit defeat and there had to be something wrong with the horse, took it to vet after vet to find a problem with it's back or hind legs and eventually had it written off and claimed loss of use for the horse.  It now lives in a field and does Nh work every week or so.  These are just some of the experiences I have had with NH.  These were all different people.

This in essence is what I am saying not that people who follow NH are all like this but there are a huge amount of people who will take on some of it with no understanding and that will be the PP legacy.  I know there is no way to stop this happening but by it's very nature and what it promises these things will happen and traditional trainers end up clearing up the mess.

How many times do you see adverts stating "will only sell to a NH home" how arrogant is that?

With regards to the ~Tight Rein = No Brain comment.  At what level of Parelli would you have to be at to achieve collection and engagement without using the reins?  Could a horse be schooled to high level dressage using parellis approach and ideals?


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## AengusOg (20 July 2010)

This too...

EAR SHY? By Pat Parelli
Can you touch your husband's ears? What about your best friend's, your child's or your mother's? 
If you couldn't then there's probably something wrong with the relationship! This is how I want you to think of your horse's so-called 'problem'. If he doesn't like his ears to be touched its because deep down inside, he does not trust you. There is a flaw in your relationship. 
When I talk about the solution here I am going to give you the natural approach, the one that consider's the horse's point of view. To effect a 'cure' you have to gain his trust and permission. The normal way is often to force the horse to accept it, twitch him, tie him, throw him&#8230;. In my mind (and in the horse's I'm sure) this is akin to rape and I won't use it. 
So to do it with the horse's permission may seem to take a little time, technique and knowledge, but if you do it right you won't have to do it over!
The horse's point of view:
As I said in my last column, horses are prey animals and humans are predators. This is a biological fact. No matter how much your horse seems to like you, deep inside him is this wariness which creates defensive behaviour. In your horse it is around his ears where this surfaces. 
Every horse knows that predators know where his vital spots are. When you read this list, you'll also realise that these are the known 'touchy spots' on horses: below the knees, the back of the hind legs, under the belly, the flanks, under the tail, behind the ears and on the poll. One swipe of a lion's claws in any of these areas is enough to mortally wound a horse, so his instincts are protective ones. 
You have acknowledged that in some way you are still viewed as a predator by your horse and you are going to have to prove to him that you aren't going to kill him before he will relax around the ears. 
Improving your relationship. 
Some horses can appear to be friendly enough, or gentle enough as long as you are quiet and don't ask for much. This kind of conditional relationship is typical between horse and human, but as soon as you start scratching the surface you quickly find these 'can't, won't, don't spots' that could be anything from an ear shyness to fairly serious resistances or even aggressive behaviour. So what I do is start digging! I want to expose these relationship problems so that I can solve them. 
I use a system of seven 'games' that I play with a horse that will expose every problem but will also help solve them. The first game is to prove I am friendly and the other six are yielding games to establish in the horse's language that I am dominant. 
People often ask me how I get such extraordinary results with horses. Its because I do the opposite of what everyone else does! I think laterally, and I try to think like a horse. 
Then I have the knowledge of prey animal behaviour, some creative techniques and a lot of imagination. I also have a sense of play rather than work, and you'll find that this really works with horses. The more serious you are, the more horses hate it! Horses are playful creatures so always keep this in mind. 
The last thing is that there is nothing more persistent than a Pat Parelli. Most people try something for 3 - 5 minutes and think they've done what it takes! Take the attitude of "it shouldn't take longer than two days", and anything less than that will seem quick! This is a perspective on patience that is a valuable key in getting results with horses.


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## AengusOg (20 July 2010)

This too...

EAR SHY? By Pat Parelli
Can you touch your husband's ears? What about your best friend's, your child's or your mother's? 
If you couldn't then there's probably something wrong with the relationship! This is how I want you to think of your horse's so-called 'problem'. If he doesn't like his ears to be touched its because deep down inside, he does not trust you. There is a flaw in your relationship. 
When I talk about the solution here I am going to give you the natural approach, the one that consider's the horse's point of view. To effect a 'cure' you have to gain his trust and permission. The normal way is often to force the horse to accept it, twitch him, tie him, throw him. In my mind (and in the horse's I'm sure) this is akin to rape and I won't use it. 
So to do it with the horse's permission may seem to take a little time, technique and knowledge, but if you do it right you won't have to do it over!
The horse's point of view:
As I said in my last column, horses are prey animals and humans are predators. This is a biological fact. No matter how much your horse seems to like you, deep inside him is this wariness which creates defensive behaviour. In your horse it is around his ears where this surfaces. 
Every horse knows that predators know where his vital spots are. When you read this list, you'll also realise that these are the known 'touchy spots' on horses: below the knees, the back of the hind legs, under the belly, the flanks, under the tail, behind the ears and on the poll. One swipe of a lion's claws in any of these areas is enough to mortally wound a horse, so his instincts are protective ones. 
You have acknowledged that in some way you are still viewed as a predator by your horse and you are going to have to prove to him that you aren't going to kill him before he will relax around the ears. 
Improving your relationship. 
Some horses can appear to be friendly enough, or gentle enough as long as you are quiet and don't ask for much. This kind of conditional relationship is typical between horse and human, but as soon as you start scratching the surface you quickly find these 'can't, won't, don't spots' that could be anything from an ear shyness to fairly serious resistances or even aggressive behaviour. So what I do is start digging! I want to expose these relationship problems so that I can solve them. 
I use a system of seven 'games' that I play with a horse that will expose every problem but will also help solve them. The first game is to prove I am friendly and the other six are yielding games to establish in the horse's language that I am dominant. 
People often ask me how I get such extraordinary results with horses. Its because I do the opposite of what everyone else does! I think laterally, and I try to think like a horse. 
Then I have the knowledge of prey animal behaviour, some creative techniques and a lot of imagination. I also have a sense of play rather than work, and you'll find that this really works with horses. The more serious you are, the more horses hate it! Horses are playful creatures so always keep this in mind. 
The last thing is that there is nothing more persistent than a Pat Parelli. Most people try something for 3 - 5 minutes and think they've done what it takes! Take the attitude of "it shouldn't take longer than two days", and anything less than that will seem quick! This is a perspective on patience that is a valuable key in getting results with horses.


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## Natch (20 July 2010)

I wasn't going to reply again but since the thread is bumped up anyway...




			Natural Horsemanship is not supposed to quick fix problem horses. .
		
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Aengusog 




			I disagree with this.

PNH is not designed to "build knowledge, via experience". It is aimed at total novices who seek ability without acknowledging the benefit of experience. It's a program of exercises which is meant to educate the handler and the horse simultaneously and, as such, is fundamentaly flawed...a bit like the blind leading the blind...
		
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I spoke only of Natural Horsemanship as a whole school of thought with lots of different trainers and methods under it, Parelli beng only one. I stand by my assertion that as a whole, NH is not about quick fixes. 

I have never felt the desire to study under Parelli, I don't like a lot of what I see, and so I can't speak for Parelli.




			If 'Natural Horsemanship is not supposed to quick fix problem horses', a statement with which I do agree, incidently, why did PP choose to attempt this with 'Catwalk'?
		
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If you read my comments earlier on this thread and on others, I absolutely do not condone what happened with Catwalk; and I don't condone a lot of what what I see when I watch Parelli. 

Siennamum




			Most practitioners of NH absolutely assert not only that they are doing something different, something better, they denigrate traditional forms of horsemanship. A PP defender said on this thread that I, and those like me, are of the 'kick it on' school of horsemanship.
		
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I am not attempting to defend PP, only NH _in general_. 

I am not the person who generalised you, and those like you as of the "kick it on" school of horsemanship.

I wouldn't, not intentionally anway, since I ride in a leather saddle with a bridle and a bit and everything, and lord knows if my horse is being nappy or silly for no good reason yes I do kick him on - therefore I probably am also generalised in the same category 




			Which is it? Is it the 'kick it on' school or is it 'so old it's new'? You really can't have it both ways. Criticising traditional horsemanship on the one hand but claiming to be adopting old fashioned methods on the other.
		
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This again, is assuming I am the same as the poster who decided all non-parellians are "kick it on". 

Incidently, I think the broad generalisations "Kick it on" and "Parelli = all NH = numpties who are too afraid to ride their horse and are substituting DVDs for experience" are both as patronising and uneducated as each other.




			Although I agree that these systems are of use for those people who have no horse sense, actually the best way to get some horse sense is just to spend the next 5 years around horses at every opportunity, not assume you can get there in a month from DVDs.(and then sneer at anyone who has spent the last 10 years around horses)
		
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Nobody who is sensibly contributing to this thread is advocating getting there in a month by watching a few DVDs - i'm sorry if I gave you that impression.

I also see a lack of sneering by the sensible NH contributors of this thread, tongue-in-cheek and TinyPony included.

I don't condone sneering of any type by anyone


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## AengusOg (20 July 2010)

...


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## ecarylloh (20 July 2010)

AengusOg - I thought Naturally didn't follow Parelli, so I'm not sure how she could know why Parelli might treat Catwalk like that.

Am I missing something?


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## AengusOg (20 July 2010)

ecarylloh said:



			AengusOg - I thought Naturally didn't follow Parelli, so I'm not sure how she could know why Parelli might treat Catwalk like that.

Am I missing something?
		
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I don't know whether Naturally follows Parelli or not, and it makes no difference to me.

I don't know if you have missed something...perhaps you should re-read the posts in question. That's where I am now.


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## pippinpie (20 July 2010)

AengusOg said:



			This too...

EAR SHY? By Pat Parelli................

Some horses can appear to be friendly enough, or gentle enough as long as you are quiet and don't ask for much. This kind of conditional relationship is typical between horse and human, but as soon as you start scratching the surface you quickly find these 'can't, won't, don't spots' that could be anything from an ear shyness to fairly serious resistances or even aggressive behaviour. So what I do is start digging! I want to expose these relationship problems so that I can solve them. 
I use a system of seven 'games' that I play with a horse that will expose every problem but will also help solve them. The first game is to prove I am friendly and the other six are yielding games to establish in the horse's language that I am dominant..............
		
Click to expand...

If you look at that part of PP quote it will tell you that he uses those techniques to 'diagnose' the true problem that Catwalk had, thats why it's reported 'that it started out OK' he then had to find out how deep that problem was, thats the bit were he finds out how far Catwalk is prepared to go to stop the bridle from being put on, passive and patiently trying to help him accept some head/ear touching. when it is obvious to PP that this problem is not merely a bridling problem but a deeper problem with trust and yielding leadership that have to be address first.
It is at that point he lost most of the viewing public and should have decided to continue the session in a more suitable environment.
But he didn't, if he continued he was damned and if he had stopped there he was damned so that his critics could say he was either beaten and his methods don't work or that he was going to continue behind closed doors so it must have been bad.
Can I ask if any of the media has picked up this backlash and reported it publicly? or is it just networking sites like this where hearsay and prejudice reign.


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## AengusOg (20 July 2010)

Re. the dialog between Naturally and myself...

It just goes to show how misunderstandings can come about. 

I was interested in an opinion, from someone who believes, as I do, that NH is not about quick fixes, on PP's attempts to do a quick fix on Catwalk. I thought that a person with those beliefs would have something to say on the subject. 

My opinions on the incident are well enough documented here and elsewhere. For the record, I have always thought PP to be a jumped-up, double talking cowboy, with an eye for a fast buck and a desire to have the world of horsemanship fall at his feet. Pure showmanship.

As for his programs of training, I could debate them till the end of the earth and I still wouldn't understand what he's trying to do. It all just seems like a very labour intensive way to train horses, and I've never seen a happy Parelli trained horse.


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## ecarylloh (20 July 2010)

AengusOg - I have read every single post on this thread. The one I was referring to was where Naturally stated clearly that they didn't follow Parelli. You replied to it accusing them of dodging your questions.

PippinPie - hearsay and prejudice? A certain amount, yes, but there have been a number of people on here, besides PonyDentist, who witnessed the demo in person and didn't like what they saw.


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## AengusOg (20 July 2010)

pippinpie said:



			If you look at that part of PP quote it will tell you that he uses those techniques to 'diagnose' the true problem that Catwalk had, thats why it's reported 'that it started out OK' he then had to find out how deep that problem was, thats the bit were he finds out how far Catwalk is prepared to go to stop the bridle from being put on, passive and patiently trying to help him accept some head/ear touching. when it is obvious to PP that this problem is not merely a bridling problem but a deeper problem with trust and yielding leadership that have to be address first.
It is at that point he lost most of the viewing public and should have decided to continue the session in a more suitable environment.
But he didn't, if he continued he was damned and if he had stopped there he was damned so that his critics could say he was either beaten and his methods don't work or that he was going to continue behind closed doors so it must have been bad.
Can I ask if any of the media has picked up this backlash and reported it publicly? or is it just networking sites like this where hearsay and prejudice reign.
		
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Surely all he had to do was fix his mic and talk his way out of it. He seems to be very good at that after the event. It seems to me if you want people to understand what you are doing, you simply explain as you're doing it.

I, like many others on this forum work with horses which have been damaged by inadequate/innapropriate management and handling. Some of the ones I work with are dangerous owing to the misguided attempts of well-meaning 'helpers'. Some are the way they are through lack of experience or knowledge on the part of their owners/managers. Some are difficult because they have been treated brutally in their past. Many of them have given me a lot more trouble than Catwalk gave old PP, yet I managed to help them without resorting to cowboy tactics such as lip twitches and leg ropes.

I do demonstrations for my local equine college, and I've been asked by vets to work with horses belonging to their clients. During demos, I always say to the students that I don't expect any particular outcome...only that I will work with the horse and that, whatever happens, I hope they learn something about working with young or damaged horses. No great expectations and no end aim.

Pat Parelli is losing his marbles. The strain must be getting to him cos he can't even remember his own advice any more.

There were two of them hanging onto that rope and gumline with Catwalk on the other end, and they were using his legs to help them rope him down to a position where they could force him to accept their attempts to bridle him. Oh, PP assessed the horse all right, then he decided to use coercion rather than persuasion. Why he did that will always be open to speculation, especially as we cannot depend on anything truthful coming out of the PNH camp after these fiascos. 

I can tell you now that I, and very many other folk that are disgusted that this man can treat a horse like this in the name of public education, would have done things very differently, and would have had more respect for that horse and his problems than did old PP.

He's lost the plot if he thinks that sort of behaviour will endear him to the British equine scene. Thinking horsepersons do not need an education from an old cowboy. Perhaps he really should shave off that moustache, if only to allow him to smell the coffee.


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## pippinpie (20 July 2010)

ecarylloh said:



			PippinPie - hearsay and prejudice? A certain amount, yes, but there have been a number of people on here, besides PonyDentist, who witnessed the demo in person and didn't like what they saw.
		
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I agree but they seemed to have vanished and we are left debating the rights and wrongs of what happen
I was a little disappointed that you chose to comment on my post but did not comment on its content. I posted primarily to put a side to things that my not have been considered, not to take a swipe against public networking sites, my mistake.


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## AengusOg (20 July 2010)

ecarylloh said:



			AengusOg - I have read every single post on this thread. The one I was referring to was where Naturally stated clearly that they didn't follow Parelli. You replied to it accusing them of dodging your questions..
		
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Settle down. I mis-read the last post by Naturally. It was the way it was edited and quoted. Once I'd read it again I deleted the post you refer to. 

I made a mistake.


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## Tinypony (20 July 2010)

Small point from Tinypony who is still being careful to avoid any sneering... and maintaining the correct frame of mind towards all of us horse lovers here...  
	
	
		
		
	


	




When I read that people think that most nh-type practitioners run down other methods, or are intolerant of them, I get quite sad.  Only a few high-profile trainers do that (like Monty and Pat).  There are soooo many trainers out there who I guess you might say are "nh", and I've seen a lot of them.  Most of them don't run down other approaches at all.  The good trainers from this sort of background would be equally able to support a dressage rider as they could support a happy hacker who wanted to try some liberty work.


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## Alimac19 (20 July 2010)

Nicely said AengusOg.  Well done.

Just an interesting thing I read in this long thread is that someone said that they saw the PP crew preparing a horse for a demo by lunging round and round for ages.  Funny that because I've seen the PP DVD's and they distinctly say that there is no point in lunging a horse around and around for ages.  I distintly remember this because I lunge mine.  BTW I'm not a NH person just plain old comon sense.


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## Tinypony (20 July 2010)

Well, Parelli people do work their horses in circles on long ropes y'know.  The point is supposed to be that they keep the horse's attention in the way they work, rather than allowing the horse to trundle around mindlessly switched off.  I think that's probably the point of good lunging too, but haven't seen it very often.


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## Alimac19 (20 July 2010)

Tinypony I would completly agree that lunging is not about trundling around for ages.  You need to implement a transition or include elongated circles or spirals or somthing. I try to change something (usually a transition) at least once every two times round on the lunge as I think otherwise the horse switches off.  I'm also partial to elongated circles as you can get a fantastic medium trot this way!!! And yes your right too many people don't lunge correctly however whats the difference then between PP lunging and say me lunging.  Like I say the DVD distincly says lunging is pointless.


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## vandypip (20 July 2010)

You know the parelli's and their parelletic following have begun to believe their own hype and are completely up their own a***s. Whatever made the a member of the whitaker dynasty go there???? Convenience???  What does Lesley Desmond think of all this?? she appears to be working quitely with original Dorrance formulae. We have a wonderful quiet horseman in Michael Peace here too. Neither of them are big mouthed, ostentatious showmen like you know who. And, would probably done a perfect job in gaining catwalks trust for others to work on. Because that is preciseley what it is, gaining initial trust for further work, not a quick fix solution as was attempte at the FOTH. Unfortunately parelli has lost the feel for the horse at the expense of his bank balance.


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## lochpearl (20 July 2010)

vandypip - perhaps Lesley and Michael were busy? also I would imagine that Michael would not want to make a spectacle of the horse and would prefer to do him correctly in a nice quiet and relaxing environment. Again, I think most of this is for publicity as it was certainly not in the best nature of the horse.


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## vandypip (20 July 2010)

Pat and The Parelletics! great name for a band!!!


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## jahseh (20 July 2010)

rushyj said:



			I am speaking from experiences I have had watching some talented horses ruined by people badly following the NH format not horses that have been presented to demos.  

The horse I mentioned was a 2 year old Oldenburg colt who was standing 16.3... this horse was completely ruined by it's owner who did not have a clue..  he ended up completely headshy and nervous and had to be sent away to be restarted (traditionally)..  another talented cob who could not have even his stirrups length changed with a rider on he was so terrified and landed one of my grooms in hospital.  He had been in a NH home all his life until I got him. Another horse we purchased as 5 year old from a very well respected NH home who put my farrier on the deck 5 times the first time we tried to shoe him, nearly wiped out the dentist and napped so badly when he was ridden he was down right dangerous.  After a year and a half he is now the sweetest horse who now trusts people and respects them. Another fantastic dressage horse topping 17.3 that was broken and riding away sweetly was bought by a lady who was nervous at the best of times refused to get on him until she had done the NH ground work.  After 6 months she was still not on it she then recruited a traditional trainer to get on the horse which had obviously gone back to square 1, eventually the owner started riding the horse which she was terrified of, would not admit defeat and there had to be something wrong with the horse, took it to vet after vet to find a problem with it's back or hind legs and eventually had it written off and claimed loss of use for the horse.  It now lives in a field and does Nh work every week or so.  These are just some of the experiences I have had with NH.  These were all different people.

This in essence is what I am saying not that people who follow NH are all like this but there are a huge amount of people who will take on some of it with no understanding and that will be the PP legacy.  I know there is no way to stop this happening but by it's very nature and what it promises these things will happen and traditional trainers end up clearing up the mess.

How many times do you see adverts stating "will only sell to a NH home" how arrogant is that?

With regards to the ~Tight Rein = No Brain comment.  At what level of Parelli would you have to be at to achieve collection and engagement without using the reins?  Could a horse be schooled to high level dressage using parellis approach and ideals?
		
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Hi 
In reply to your reply lol. I have never said that every horse someone purports to be training by the NH method has a happy outcome it depends as does every other training method on the skills and understanding of the person doing the training. For every horse you have quoted as being ruined by NH badly practised there are many more ruined by traditional methods badly practised and more people frightened of riding them. Or are you implying every badly behaved horse is as a result of NH methods. It is not the fault of the method employed but rather of poor practice not exclusively a NH or Parelli problem.

Parelli doesn't recommend riding at all levels with no reins the finesse part of the programme is about the fundamentals of performance and you would be expected to be riding in a bridle with a bit. However I have heard of at least one person competing at a fairly high level with no bit (can't remember at what level and haven't seen it myself so that is hearsay) but I have seen horses in parelli hackamores offering 2 time changes, passage and piaffe a fairly high standard I am sure you agree.

As for arrogance in saying someone would only sell to a NH home there are some fundamental differences in the way the horses are handled for example in the leading, a parelli trained horse for example if it had only ever been handled that way would find the traditional method restrictive and more than a little scary. It would certainly be at the least confused and worried.
Given your views if someone came to buy one of your horses and said they were going to retrain it using the parelli methods would you sell to them? What you see as arrogance they may very well see as an attempt to stop people wasting their own and a prospective owners time.

A great many horses talented and otherwise spend most of their lives never reaching the potential for performance that they possess and a great many more without the potential to do great things compete happily at lower levels. Yet others are barely ever used either living in fields, DIY yards or private homes where the owners are just happy looking after what are essentially great big pets. If the owners and the horses in any of those fields etc. are happy and well cared for I don't see that as a problem just maybe as a frustration for people who like to see or use horses to their potential.


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## Tinypony (20 July 2010)

Alimac19.  The main difference between the "circling game" and lunging, when I was in Parelli, was repetition or not.  So you weren't supposed to circle your horse for more than a few circuits in each direction, and ideally you were supposed to vary the work.  When you get a bit more advanced you can send your horse off on a circle on a 22ft line, walk off around a large area, and the horse maintains the circle around you.  Then there is a movement called the falling leaf, where you disengage the hind end as the horse passes in front of you, to turn the horse to face you, and send it off on an arc in the opposite direction.  Before the horse passes the level of your shoulder, you disengage and change direction again.  All the time you walk forward.  It is quite a pretty movement when done well, like a dance.  You can also ask for a few steps of sideways off a circle, or hips out/in, shoulder in... all sorts of stuff really.  I used to have a nice big field and I'd set off with my horse on his rope just aiming to keep a nice fluid movement going about 15-18 ft away from me, with the horse sometimes circling, sometimes doing a falling leaf, then away and over an obstacle, or around something, it could be quite creative.  I don't suppose that the Parelli people your friend mentioned would have been doing all that stuff, but I'd be surprised if they lunged the horse in more than say 8 circles, before doing something else.
This is why I say that nothing is all bad, I learnt a lot of useful and interesting stuff with Parelli.  I still use a lot of it, the difference being that I teach it to my horse differently.
I have one video of a snippet of this work with one of my horses.  I will pm you a link, I don't know if I want to put it on the forum, it's old and the stuff I do now looks rather different LOL!


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## pippinpie (20 July 2010)

Alimac19 said:



			..................And yes your right too many people don't lunge correctly *however whats the difference then between PP lunging and say me lunging.*  Like I say the DVD distincly says lunging is pointless.
		
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The difference is that they are not lunging, they use a method where by the horse is sent out onto a circle, allowed to continue without nagging from the handler and then disengaged and brought back or change rein or change gait. PNH circles can be big one, small ones, traveling ones many many others, the difference is there are three parts :the send, the allow and the bring back. a horse learns to maintain gait and stay on the circle until it is told otherwise, when teaching this maybe only two or three circles can be achieved, there's a world of difference.


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## vandypip (20 July 2010)

Couln't agree more with that. that is Leslie Desmond and Mike Peace where too busy!!!


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## PapaFrita (20 July 2010)

pippinpie said:



			But he didn't, if he continued he was damned and if he had stopped there he was damned so that his critics could say he was either beaten and his methods don't work or that he was going to continue behind closed doors so it must have been bad.
		
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Surely the horse's needs are foremost? Doesn't PP say this all the time? In which case the only thing to do would've been to stop and to hell with the critics.


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## snowmanbaby (20 July 2010)

I defy anybody on this whole thread, to watch the video of Barney, being abused, yanked about,  confused and humiliated, to explain to me what the "person" abusing the one eyed and disadvantaged horse was "supposed" to get out of that session of abuse???

Please explain to me, so that I can understand, and gain some "S...avvy" ???


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## vandypip (20 July 2010)

Snowmanbaby. You already have it!!!


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## jahseh (20 July 2010)

snowmanbaby said:



			I defy anybody on this whole thread, to watch the video of Barney, being abused, yanked about,  confused and humiliated, to explain to me what the "person" abusing the one eyed and disadvantaged horse was "supposed" to get out of that session of abuse???

Please explain to me, so that I can understand, and gain some "S...avvy" ???
		
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As far as I understand it the horse had been running over the top of the handler because it was so interested in something off screen that it was paying no attention to the people in its vicinity and was in danger of injuring someone. 
Throughout most of the clip the horse is still ignoring the person on the end of the rope so it obviously wasn't that bothered or it would have transfered its attention to that person, however it was at least no longer stepping on or pushing through that person. 
As for the horse being humiliated I haven't ever noticed a horse displaying that emotion I don't think a horse would understand humiliation even if you could explain the concept to it.
The purpose of the actions as far as I understand it was to gain the horses attention and keep people safe.
Whether you would, I would or others would have used other methods in such a situation and how effective they would be is as far as I can see a far more relevant question and of more concern, than any imaginary emotion the horse may feel. 
Also has the horse owner or anyone associated with it indicated that the horse suffered any harm of a minor or major kind because of what is shown on the video? Is the horse now terribly head shy? Was it cut damaged etc? Does anyone know? Whilst horses are herbivores thay are large and can present a danger to people just by being the size they are and discounting the people around them. Would it have been better to allow someone to be injured in that way?
If I had been in that situation I might have been content with getting the horse away from me and let it continue to stare until it got bored providing it didn't keep crowding in on top of me or anyone else but as I wasn't there; I don't know.


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## Shysmum (20 July 2010)

OMG - you are defending Linda Parelli in what she did with the half blind horse ? Get over yourself, or are you just looking for a bun fight ?


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## vandypip (20 July 2010)

jahseh said:



			As far as I understand it the horse had been running over the top of the handler because it was so interested in something off screen that it was paying no attention to the people in its vicinity and was in danger of injuring someone. 
Throughout most of the clip the horse is still ignoring the person on the end of the rope so it obviously wasn't that bothered or it would have transfered its attention to that person, however it was at least no longer stepping on or pushing through that person. 
As for the horse being humiliated I haven't ever noticed a horse displaying that emotion I don't think a horse would understand humiliation even if you could explain the concept to it.
The purpose of the actions as far as I understand it was to gain the horses attention and keep people safe.
Whether you would, I would or others would have used other methods in such a situation and how effective they would be is as far as I can see a far more relevant question and of more concern, than any imaginary emotion the horse may feel. 
Also has the horse owner or anyone associated with it indicated that the horse suffered any harm of a minor or major kind because of what is shown on the video? Is the horse now terribly head shy? Was it cut damaged etc? Does anyone know? Whilst horses are herbivores thay are large and can present a danger to people just by being the size they are and discounting the people around them. Would it have been better to allow someone to be injured in that way?
If I had been in that situation I might have been content with getting the horse away from me and let it continue to stare until it got bored providing it didn't keep crowding in on top of me or anyone else but as I wasn't there; I don't know.
		
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EXCUSE ME??? quite a few of us didn't see a dangerous horse in that  video??? Where was he? can you point him out to us please???


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## dRats (20 July 2010)

Jahseh.....if you had bothered to watch the clip of Barney just BEFORE LP took over from owner you would have seen that was NOT true! He was grazing on a slack line and became confused when owner started wiggling the line, then really worried looking with his  one eye for a way out from the frantic shake'n'klunk of LP. She blamed the wind on her 'explanation'....there was NO wind, the spanish moss in the trees was barely waving.This was a hunt horse of many years' standing who saw the human as someone to stand beside quietly, as is normal in the rest of the humane horse world.


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## vandypip (20 July 2010)

dRats said:



			Jahseh.....if you had bothered to watch the clip of Barney just BEFORE LP took over from owner you would have seen that was NOT true! He was grazing on a slack line and became confused when owner started wiggling the line, then really worried looking with his  one eye for a way out from the frantic shake'n'klunk of LP. She blamed the wind on her 'explanation'....there was NO wind, the spanish moss in the trees was barely waving.This was a hunt horse of many years' standing who saw the human as someone to stand beside quietly, as is normal in the rest of the humane horse world.
		
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 Wind must have been bloody strong that day consering the waving around her arms were doing!!!


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## SophieRIDSH (20 July 2010)

yorksG said:



			I'm sorry to be being a bit silly here, but I am still trying to imagine the look on our farriers face if I asked him to shoe my horse with it and him standing on a barrel   

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I'm not sure teaching my mare to stand on a barrel would preserve her dignity


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## jahseh (20 July 2010)

vandypip said:



			Actually, you don't seem to know too much at all. You are a good example of idiotic brain washing!!! Nobody was doing the horse any favours!!! it was being abused!!! Only a parelletic person like you would comment otherwise!! ha, ha, ha!!!!!
		
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In reply

I didn't know there was another clip of the horse just before. I was going on what I saw and had been told. I never said this was a good thing just commented on what i had been told and my own perceptions and asked for more information. I also said what I  would do in the circumstances as far as I understood them which wasn't what was done so why all the abuse? Or are only horses exempt from abuse and people fair game?


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## PapaFrita (20 July 2010)

jahseh said:



			In reply

I didn't know there was another clip of the horse just before. I was going on what I saw and had been told.
		
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You do realise the irony of this comment in view of what Vandypip said just before.....?


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## pippinpie (20 July 2010)

vandypip said:



			You know what??? he'd have done us all a favour if he'd mown the abusive blond bitch down.
		
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Shame on you for such disgusting comment you really must have nothing to say when you start mocking and have to resort to insults, cursing and above all this shows what sort of person you really are


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## jahseh (20 July 2010)

PapaFrita said:



			You do realise the irony of this comment in view of what Vandypip said just before.....?
		
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No because I explained what I had been told and asked for additional information and again said I wouldn't have done that in the circumstances as far as i understood them.So explain how her comments even approach irony?


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## PapaFrita (20 July 2010)

jahseh said:



			No because I explained what I had been told and asked for additional information and again said I wouldn't have done that in the circumstances as far as i understood them.So explain how her comments even approach irony?
		
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Um, no, your comments are ironic. Do I seriously have to explain?
I would much rather get an answer to one of the several questions I've posted on this thread and not had a comprehensive reply to.


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## pippinpie (20 July 2010)

jahseh said:



			In reply

I didn't know there was another clip of the horse just before. I was going on what I saw and had been told. I never said this was a good thing just commented on what i had been told and my own perceptions and asked for more information. I also said what I  would do in the circumstances as far as I understood them which wasn't what was done so why all the abuse? Or are only horses exempt from abuse and people fair game?
		
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jahseh
The clip I think you have seen has been edited from a much longer video that probably none of these people here that are commenting on have ever seen.
You asked a few question like was the horse head shy after what did the owner think, well I can tell you that the owner is still a member of PNH and still has the horse , they have made a statement that they have complete faith in Linda and that the horse is fine, they describe that it was a difficult horse and it still has minor issues (not relating to the incidence in the clip), this video clip was circulated to try and discredit Linda Parelli and the PNH because the tape is taken out of context the viewer is unable to make a complete picture of what was really going on as the start and end were never shown.


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## jahseh (20 July 2010)

PapaFrita said:



			Um, no, your comments are ironic. Do I seriously have to explain?
I would much rather get an answer to one of the several questions I've posted on this thread and not had a comprehensive reply to.
		
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Sorry misread your response thought you were saying she was being ironic but again no as i explained the information i had been given and what actions I would probably have taken if those circumstances were as explained to me. I also requested more information which is only what someone who is resonable would do not rant and rave without full information. True ignorence is not not knowing it is refusal to take on board other information that may lead you to become better informed. At no point have I indicated any unwillingness to do so and as I had not read about a previous video I didn't know one exsisted. I never unlike some others have knowingly given the impression or said that I am omnipitent or all knowing


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## brighteyes (20 July 2010)

pippinpie said:



			If you look at that part of PP quote it will tell you that he uses those techniques to 'diagnose' the true problem that Catwalk had, thats why it's reported 'that it started out OK' he then had to find out how deep that problem was, thats the bit were he finds out how far Catwalk is prepared to go to stop the bridle from being put on, passive and patiently trying to help him accept some head/ear touching. when it is obvious to PP that this problem is not merely a bridling problem but a deeper problem with trust and yielding leadership that have to be address first.
It is at that point he lost most of the viewing public and should have decided to continue the session in a more suitable environment.
But he didn't, if he continued he was damned and if he had stopped there he was damned so that his critics could say he was either beaten and his methods don't work or that he was going to continue behind closed doors so it must have been bad.
Can I ask if any of the media has picked up this backlash and reported it publicly? or is it just networking sites like this where hearsay and prejudice reign.
		
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Or that he was given signals by the horse he was ready to move on, which the horse then retracted? If he had stopped there, then maybe he would have lost so much ground the horse would have been doubly resistant to the idea of having a bridle on?  

Old ground, keeps being trodden.


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## jahseh (20 July 2010)

I have to say there is a startling disparity in the reasonableness or otherwise of lots of posts on this site are they all like this?


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## pippinpie (20 July 2010)

pippinpie said:
			
		


			............It is at that point he lost most of the viewing public and should have decided to continue the session in a more suitable environment...........
		
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What I meant by that was ; at that point understanding of what was needed and what was happening was lost to the majority and this was made worst by him not have the mic on and being able to comunicate what he was doing and why.



brighteyes said:



			Or that he was given signals by the horse he was ready to move on, which the horse then retracted? If he had stopped there, then maybe he would have lost so much ground the horse would have been doubly resistant to the idea of having a bridle on?  

Old ground, keeps being trodden.
		
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Agreed we will never know what PP was seeing, but I do know it would have been a lot more than me and most of the people on this thread.


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## pippinpie (20 July 2010)

jahseh said:



			I have to say there is a startling disparity in the reasonableness or otherwise of lots of posts on this site are they all like this?
		
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Some of us use manners and display decent debating skills others as you have found out don't know how to have a civil conversation and use school yard behavior to try and make their points but it is all lost when rudeness and abuse take over.


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## Gingerwitch (20 July 2010)

Has there been any comment from the Whittakers on what went on and the associated allegations?


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## jahseh (20 July 2010)

pippinpie said:



			Some of us use manners and display decent debating skills others as you have found out don't know how to have a civil conversation and use school yard behavior to try and make their points but it is all lost when rudeness and abuse take over.
		
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thankyou for that and the previous info


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## pippinpie (20 July 2010)

Gingerwitch said:



			Has there been any comment from the Whittakers on what went on and the associated allegations?
		
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The only public thing that I know about is the Robert Whitaker the owner of Catwalk has allowed the official vet report that was issued after the vet saw the horse at 11.00am on sat morning, to be used by PP in his statement regarding the demo a FOTH. To me that speaks volumes


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## PapaFrita (20 July 2010)

pippinpie said:



			Some of us use manners and display decent debating skills others as you have found out don't know how to have a civil conversation and use school yard behavior to try and make their points but it is all lost when rudeness and abuse take over.
		
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I appear to be talking to myself ....  I continue to ask questions and get no response.


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## jahseh (20 July 2010)

PapaFrita said:



			I appear to be talking to myself ....  I continue to ask questions and get no response.
		
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I responded to the remarks you addressed to me, so not ignoring you. Don't recall your previous questions so can't answer them or maybe (horror) I don't know the answer or thought the points had been answered elsewhere or any number of other things lol.


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## pippinpie (20 July 2010)

PapaFrita said:



			Surely the horse's needs are foremost? Doesn't PP say this all the time? In which case the only thing to do would've been to stop and to hell with the critics.
		
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I can only find this one 

I understand what and why PP did what he did (with the horse) but I do not understand why he did not realise that carrying on was not acceptable to the majority in the audience. Only he knows what he was feeling and what feedback he was getting back from the horse.
I wasn't there so this is just MY take on it.
PS reread your question I truly believe he was doing it in the best interest of the horse.


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## brighteyes (20 July 2010)

PapaFrita said:



			I appear to be talking to myself ....  I continue to ask questions and get no response.
		
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I'm beginning to agree with the witch hunt comments made at the beginning!


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## PapaFrita (20 July 2010)

jahseh said:



			I responded to the remarks you addressed to me, so not ignoring you. Don't recall your previous questions so can't answer them or maybe (horror) I don't know the answer or thought the points had been answered elsewhere or any number of other things lol.
		
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I know. That's why my comment was addressed to Pippinpie (sp)


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## pippinpie (20 July 2010)

brighteyes said:



			I'm beginning to agree with the witch hunt comments made at the beginning!
		
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Well all those immature school yard bullies, can't hold a decent debate so I suppose they've moved on to harass some other poor posters.


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## pippinpie (20 July 2010)

PapaFrita said:



			I know. That's why my comment was addressed to Pippinpie (sp) 

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I have responded see a few post up or down which ever way round you read them


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## PapaFrita (20 July 2010)

brighteyes said:



			I'm beginning to agree with the witch hunt comments made at the beginning!
		
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Me??


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## PapaFrita (20 July 2010)

pippinpie said:



			I have responded see a few post up or down which ever way round you read them

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Yes, I've seen that now, thanks. Seems as if neither of us can figure it out.


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## fburton (20 July 2010)

pippinpie said:



			The clip I think you have seen has been edited from a much longer video that probably none of these people here that are commenting on have ever seen.
You asked a few question like was the horse head shy after what did the owner think, well I can tell you that the owner is still a member of PNH and still has the horse , they have made a statement that they have complete faith in Linda and that the horse is fine, they describe that it was a difficult horse and it still has minor issues (not relating to the incidence in the clip), this video clip was circulated to try and discredit Linda Parelli and the PNH because the tape is taken out of context the viewer is unable to make a complete picture of what was really going on as the start and end were never shown.
		
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I have watched the DVD that includes the whole clip. Seeing the bits before and after the posted clip doesn't make one go "Ah, so _that's_ what it was all about. I now see what a dangerous horse Barney was and understand what Linda was trying to do." No, the overall impression is still of an ugly, wrong-headed way to deal with a horse who _wasn't_ trying to run over the top of anyone but whose "crime" was looking where he wasn't meant to. Actually, Barney was relatively quiet and untroubled at the beginning when he was being handled by his owner. It was Linda's intervention that upset and confused him - understandably, given the total lack of clarity of the signals he was given and the continual flurry of punishers inflicted on him. It is also true that things had settled down again towards the end - but no way does it excuse the shoddy way the horse was treated.


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## Shrek-Eventing-SW (20 July 2010)

Link didn't work


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## YorksG (20 July 2010)

It is my opinion that there is actually a cultural problem here. When 'traditional' methods are being discussed, are we talking about British traditions, or North American ones? If the American ones are those popularised and typified by the 'cowboy' style of roping legs, using twitches to bridle etc, then I am sure that the Parelli methods are usually more acceptable (although these appear to have been replicated in the video I have seen of the 'work' with Catwalk) It is understandable that quick turn round of unbroken to workable horses was required historically in North America. The British tradition evolved more slowly and and has developed along different lines, essentially making the Parelli method redundant in the UK.


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## pippinpie (20 July 2010)

fburton said:



			I have watched the DVD that includes the whole clip. Seeing the bits before and after the posted clip doesn't make one go "Ah, so _that's_ what it was all about. I now see what a dangerous horse Barney was and understand what Linda was trying to do." No, the overall impression is still of an ugly, wrong-headed way to deal with a horse who _wasn't_ trying to run over the top of anyone but whose "crime" was looking where he wasn't meant to. Actually, Barney was relatively quiet and untroubled at the beginning when he was being handled by his owner. It was Linda's intervention that upset and confused him - understandably, given the total lack of clarity of the signals he was given and the continual flurry of punishers inflicted on him. It is also true that things had settled down again towards the end - but no way does it excuse the shoddy way the horse was treated.
		
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I'm so glad that you have seen the whole video, unlike many that judged it on a 10 minute snipit, for now you can make an informed personal comment on how you saw the whole thing, I have never defended what Linda did I have always said the I understood what she was trying to do, yes it was not good to watch and I think she would be the first to acknowledge that we all might have done things differently with hindsight.
I really like Linda and this has been the only thing that has ever made me cringe


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## Amymay (21 July 2010)

pippinpie said:



			The difference is that they are not lunging, they use a method where by the horse is sent out onto a circle, allowed to continue without nagging from the handler and then disengaged and brought back or change rein or change gait. PNH circles can be big one, small ones, traveling ones many many others, the difference is there are three parts :the send, the allow and the bring back. a horse learns to maintain gait and stay on the circle until it is told otherwise, when teaching this maybe only two or three circles can be achieved, there's a world of difference.
		
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If it looks like lunging, sounds like lunging.........


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## Berpisc (21 July 2010)

Ditto Amymay; nagging during lunging isnt a good technique either.


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## Tinypony (21 July 2010)

I too have seen the full video of Barney the one-eyed horse.  Not difficult as it's part of the Level 1 instructional DVD pack.  I agree with what fburton says.  I think the horse was provoked and scared into behaving as he did, I don't see a trace of "dominance" in him.  He was just confused and scared and what was done to him made it worse.


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## Shysmum (21 July 2010)

it's no good  using the ignore list thingy, because of all the quotes in other peeps posts *sigh*.


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## jahseh (21 July 2010)

fburton said:



			I have watched the DVD that includes the whole clip. Seeing the bits before and after the posted clip doesn't make one go "Ah, so _that's_ what it was all about. I now see what a dangerous horse Barney was and understand what Linda was trying to do." No, the overall impression is still of an ugly, wrong-headed way to deal with a horse who _wasn't_ trying to run over the top of anyone but whose "crime" was looking where he wasn't meant to. Actually, Barney was relatively quiet and untroubled at the beginning when he was being handled by his owner. It was Linda's intervention that upset and confused him - understandably, given the total lack of clarity of the signals he was given and the continual flurry of punishers inflicted on him. It is also true that things had settled down again towards the end - but no way does it excuse the shoddy way the horse was treated.
		
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Having more information I have now also watched the (as far as I know) whole video. I agree with what you have said about the only error on the part of the horse appearing to be looking elsewhere so would almost definately have ignored it till the horse was ready to pay attention, or tried to be more interesting myself
I also agree that the horse was treated in a less than ideal manner and your words ugly, wrong headed and shoddy really seem to fit. It doesn't seem to fit with lots of the stated Parelli ideals and methods.
However I still can't see that the treatment given (as there are apparently no injuries hang ups caused or damage in any real measurable way) deserves the degree of vitriol being heaped on it by some others to the extent that someone stated the horse would have done the world a favour if it had run over the abusive *****.
It seems to me that lots of cases of real actual cruelty and neglect resulting in long term sustained damage or serious suffering are termed abuse and using that term for something like this cheapens that in some way as the two just don't compare.


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## SirenaXVI (21 July 2010)

jahseh said:



			Having more information I have now also watched the (as far as I know) whole video. I agree with what you have said about the only error on the part of the horse appearing to be looking elsewhere so would almost definately have ignored it till the horse was ready to pay attention, or tried to be more interesting myself
I also agree that the horse was treated in a less than ideal manner and your words ugly, wrong headed and shoddy really seem to fit. It doesn't seem to fit with lots of the stated Parelli ideals and methods.
However I still can't see that the treatment given (as there are apparently no injuries hang ups caused or damage in any real measurable way) deserves the degree of vitriol being heaped on it by some others to the extent that someone stated the horse would have done the world a favour if it had run over the abusive *****.
It seems to me that lots of cases of real actual cruelty and neglect resulting in long term sustained damage or serious suffering are termed abuse and using that term for something like this cheapens that in some way as the two just don't compare.
		
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I am very glad to see that you too feel that the treatment of this horse was wrong.

I think the vitriol heaped on LP because of this incident is based on the fact that she and Pat have set themselves up as the people to follow, as teachers if you like, and there will be some amongst their followers who will think that this was exactly the right thing to do with that particular horse when most right minded horse people can see at a glance that it is just wrong, exactly the same applies to the Catwalk incident.  It is interesting that, despite almost universal condemnation, aside from die hard Parelli followers, that not once have either of them apologised for the treatment of either horse.

Like it or not, the majority of Parelli people (well those that I have met in the UK anyway) are almost evangelical in their belief that they are right and everyone else is wrong, this despite many of us, including myself, having witnessed Parelli going horribly wrong.  

I have no beef with NH, I do with Parelli and the above is just a couple of reasons why.  I could go on but I won't as it would be covering old ground.

I would just like to say to Pat and Linda that a good horseman admits when he got it wrong and does not close his eyes to other ways because he believes he already knows the proper way.  The day a horseman stops learning is the day he stops being a good horseman.


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## pippinpie (21 July 2010)

SirenaXVI said:



			I am very glad to see that you too feel that the treatment of this horse was wrong.

I think the vitriol heaped on LP because of this incident is based on the fact that she and Pat have set themselves up as the people to follow, as teachers if you like, and there will be some amongst their followers who will think that this was exactly the right thing to do with that particular horse when most right minded horse people can see at a glance that it is just wrong, exactly the same applies to the Catwalk incident.  It is interesting that, despite almost universal condemnation, aside from die hard Parelli followers, that not once have either of them apologised for the treatment of either horse.....................I would just like to say to Pat and Linda that a good horseman admits when he got it wrong and does not close his eyes to other ways because he believes he already knows the proper way.  The day a horseman stops learning is the day he stops being a good horseman.
		
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Nice to read two polite posts, Thanks.
Both Linda and Pat have given public apologies, maybe you have not seen them, Linda made a video recording several months back and it was displayed on her blog and on parelli.com site, Pat has made a written video recording last week that was shown on Parelli you tube. Not everyone that has seen them has been satisfied but that is a personal thing.


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## Kokopelli (21 July 2010)

I think its almost good as there has been a lot of incidents like this but not known so in some ways its kinda good that this has caused so much debate as it means it is less likely to happen again.


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## Echo Bravo (21 July 2010)

I'm surprised that people are waffling on over this thread as many sensible and non things have been said. I don't think the Parellies  or Robert Whittaker will be worrying their tiny little brains about it. Catwalk bless him will either make the grade as a top Showjumper or will be past on to lesser mortals. Perhaps if there was less money for Showjumping etc:- there would be a lot more enjoyable shows, like in bygone days when a red rosette and a £1 was what you rode for.


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## Munchkin (21 July 2010)

I'm guessing that SJ wouldn't remain a world sport if the prize money was a quid!


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## Shysmum (21 July 2010)

On the contrary, I think PP and RW must be VERY concerned over the situation, and the outcome of any investigation. Maybe this thread has drifted, but it's still here, and being read all over the world. Can't be good for business, can it.


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## Echo Bravo (21 July 2010)

Use to enjoy my showjumping many many years ago. But know cann't even be bothered to read about it, and it's getting the same about Eventing, big business comes in and the money and the joy disappears. That is why many small local shows have disappeared for the amateur rider, price money!!!


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## SirenaXVI (22 July 2010)

pippinpie said:



			Nice to read two polite posts, Thanks.
Both Linda and Pat have given public apologies, maybe you have not seen them, Linda made a video recording several months back and it was displayed on her blog and on parelli.com site, Pat has made a written video recording last week that was shown on Parelli you tube. Not everyone that has seen them has been satisfied but that is a personal thing.
		
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I admit that I have not seen Linda's apology, but I have in fact seen Pat's and tbh, imho, he did not apologise for the treatment of the horse and did not actually admit he got it wrong which would have gone some way to quieting the seething masses


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## galaxy (22 July 2010)

seen this?

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/article.php?aid=300317

Apparently there's a write up in H&H too.  May pop down and buy one for a change.


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## Shysmum (22 July 2010)

Now that has made me REALLY angry ! 

"blown out of proportion"
"a few hundred people upset"

What the hell planet are these people on. Are we blind ? I am absolutely disgusted with Parelli and Whitaker all over again. No this won't just "go away" because we are "hysterical". We want to know the outcome of the BHS/RSPCA investigations. 

I thought I'd buy a few horsey mags today, and there is Brand Parelli splashed all over them, it's an unstoppable money machine. They have their base at Stoneleigh Park, to educate us UK owners-

http://central.parellinaturalhorset...-soldier-and-a-shop-assistant-have-in-common/ 

I bet they are/were planning on doing a demo at the yourHorselive show in November (conveniently at Stoneleigh Park), and yet they treat people who see thru them as imbeciles. 

Enough is enough, get out of the UK and take your ridiculous and overpriced carrot sticks with you.

Sorry, time for a major rant to these arrogant, self absorbed, "we know the best for horses" idiots. I feel much better for that - but be assured, there is plenty more where that came from !!!


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## galaxy (22 July 2010)

I'm not surprised by Roberts reaction.  Does anyone remember the "whip" incident at Hickstead a few years ago?  To me, he's never seemed the horseman of John or Michael and certainly isn't as personable etc as they are.

The fact Parelli have an office at Stoneleigh doesn't bother me  (maybe we should arrange a protest outside it!!!  ha ha ha!).  The BHS don't own the whole of the Park itself, they can't control who rents space as far as I'm aware....


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## Shysmum (22 July 2010)

sorry, it just seems like they are everywhere. I can't even get a horsey mag without it being rammed down my throat. *sigh* And it's you and me that they are trying to sell this **** to. And novices, who must think it's the right path for them, and will spend out hundreds -  with all this damned advertising.


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## teddyt (22 July 2010)

A spokesman for Parelli said: "We do feel that we made some mistakes and want to apologise for them."
		
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The big man (ha, ha) himself couldnt bring himself to say it so he got one of his minions to do it. PP really needs to cut his ego down to size.





			And Pat Parelli told H&H: "Although we at Parelli, the vet and the owners of Catwalk are all perfectly happy that the stallion is of fine health and suffered no duress, we are ready to accept that nothing we nor our community of Parelli practitioners say will change the mind of a few hundred people who are out to shout us down."
		
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The vet- thats their OWN vet! And as far as ive been told not all is happy in the parelli camp. More spin from PP for us silly people to swallow.





			Robert Whitaker said he felt the situation had perhaps been blown out of proportion.
		
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Mmm. One minute hes there. Then hes not. Maybe hes a bit


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## Shysmum (22 July 2010)

feathers - spit - aaaarghh - time for a nice cup of tea..


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## Shysmum (22 July 2010)

an interesting thought whilst having said cup of tea - I wonder if these "pro Parelli" mags will be reporting on this incident next month ? I wonder if they'll think twice about their "Parelli competitions" and advertising. 

Answers on a postage stamp


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## wizbit (22 July 2010)

I wish i had been there to see if for myself so i could comment but i wasnt. Its so sad. Poor horse, but ive also seen far worse in day to day handling of horses. Its just a sad state of the world we live


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## jbss7382 (22 July 2010)

Hi Everyone,

Although I have just joined I have managed to find the youtube footage that you are all asking about.

Try going to this web address and you can see a large amounts of varying length clips about Catwalk and Pratt Parrellis!!

Make sure you have som tissues handy, AND I'M A STRAIGHT BLOKE! NOT GOOD TO WATCH BUT YOU MUST TO LEARN WHAT NOT TO DO!! IF ONLY WE COULD BAN THEM.

MR WHITTAKER, YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELF!!

http://www.youtube.com/results?sear...&search=Search&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&spell=1


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## Sleepeeze_dad (22 July 2010)

I was gonna leave this thread to you lot since you're doing a fine job  

Then I read the H&H piece where the Parelli's said... "_we are ready to accept that nothing we nor our community of Parelli practitioners say will change the mind of a few hundred people who are out to shout us down_"

Few hundred?!? If you had a business and you were ready to accept "a few hundred people" were out to "shout you down", firstly no one would come to you if you screwed up that much and secondly who'd want to if you had such a blasé and arrogant attitude towards what you do for a living? 

Only makes it worse that their living is training horses.

God help them.


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## mik (22 July 2010)

' we apologise'   to the horse?


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## GailM (22 July 2010)

This is the first I have heard of this happening and after reading everyone's comments etc. I am disgusted.  Let's face it it's not the first time they have been in the media for all the wrong reasons.  I don't believe I have ever seen Monty Roberts using hobbles and twitches and he seems to achieve fantastic results.  I am very disappointed in Robert Whittaker for letting this happen.  Obviously something has happened in the past to make the stallion act the way he does.  The point is, is he frightened of the bridle or the bit?  If it is the bit maybe they could try a bitless bridle to see if that works.  Is he the same when having a halter put on? There could be countless reasons as to why the horse is as he is.  It is up to whoever looks after him to try and find out why and try to make things better for the horse, not to distress him and make him cower down to humans.


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## Chestnuttymare (22 July 2010)

I also wasn't going to comment again on this subject but I am so peed off with that quote from him.
What an arrogant s0d, i have never been anti P or anything else, i have already said that I had used Parelli methods to help out with my mare in the beginning.  So the comment about being 'shouted down' and the attitude that anyone not happy with this display are just out to get him is just ridiculous. How paranoid can you get.  
One thing is true though, his treatment of this horse and his whole arrogant attitude has certainly changed my mind, but not for the better.
Does he not realise that it isn't just parelli bashers that have spoken out against it, but parelli followers too. Albeit incognito due to worry of being turned against by the             parelli-ists and their lives being made difficult. 

I agree with Wizbits that far worse things  happen. But not in public demonstrations and by the self proclaimed guru of NH who claims to train by not using fear, pain etc. 

I think i have just had my 2 seconds of fame by being quoted in H&H lol


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## Shysmum (22 July 2010)

Blimey, we're all on a roll now


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## Toby_Zaphod (22 July 2010)

"we are ready to accept that nothing we nor our community of Parelli practitioners say will change the mind of a few hundred people who are out to shout us down"

The arrogance of Parelli seems to know no bounds!


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## martlin (22 July 2010)

I'm just lost for words...


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## SophieRIDSH (22 July 2010)

JekyleandHyde said:



			Its such a shame to see more abuse caused to these stunning animals.  I was recently sent a link about the disgusting abuse that horses suffer in the Americans hands in rodeo, what makes Pat think he is any different?????
A horse had had a front leg and back leg broken yet still beaten til he moved and then what????? He's legs where flapping around as he tried his best to get away..... The people who do this need a bullet.....
		
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Please keep in mind that PP is not representative of all Americans.  Many of us are just as disgusted with him as you are.  

I read Horse and Hound Online.  Recently there was an abuse case at Spindle(?) farm.  Should we consider that incident to be representative of UK horsemanship?  And RW is Brittish.  He supplied the victim

Or the Calgary Stampede in Alberta CANADA?

Neither good horsemanship nor abuse have a nationality


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## liznpatch (22 July 2010)

Having just read this thread and the paper copy of h&h it seems the penny has finally dropped with people about Pirelli being somewhat less than natural! I know a very reliable source that has worked behind the scenes as part of a stunt and show team and has witnessed the so called "natural" horsemen training the horses used in the shows.  Any wonder that for the show the horses come into the ring wild then miraculously become tame in minutes with a stupid ropey halter thing on them?  One has to ask is this a miracle or did the early training of the horses with a metal noseband and such like put so much fear of pain into the horses that the minute the "stupid ropey thing" is put on their heads that they are submissive!  Also, the fact that Pirelli couldnt tame a horse that he hadnt had time to "work on" is also a gleaming admission that the whole thing is a "show" and its just stupid people looking for the quick fix miracle answer to their naughty dobbin that buy into this rubbish!  If this is natural horseman ship then I dont want any part of it!  There is nothing more natural for a horse than training with love, kindness, firmness and consistency and it wont cost you £49 for a stuipd ropey halter thingy that doesnt work...!


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## mik (22 July 2010)

I don't believe this is a slur on americans, nor was spindle farm normal in the UK. I think the main issue here is horse welfare and the lack of respect shown for the animal in question. The complete confusion seen in the eyes and behaviour of the horse, in this case, and other examples I have seen indicates to me, a normal horse person, that this method is not constructive. 
 Nationality, as you say, has nothing to do with this, maybe culture has a bearing on how we view and treat animals in each country, however, Parelli himself,  comes from an enlightened, active equestrian nation. Does he not? 
This is not horsemanship and should not be condoned as such. The 'followers' of this movement are surely not stupid, they must see the distress this type of behaviour causes to horses and how it destroys trust and respect between horse and handler.
 I am not anti nor pro any type of horsemanship, but I am against abuse of any animals. 
In all my years of having horses, and with a reputation for retraining 'difficult' horses, I do feel I am qualified to comment as are many very very experienced and educated people on this forum. 
My old trainer always said, never lose your temper or your head, if you feel you are getting cross/angry/ upset, stop what you  are doing,  quietly, (get off), and walk away calmly. Think the issue through and find a way to approach the problem. 
We all get riled sometimes, but it is never constructive to ever deal with a horse in anger or desperation because you cannot achieve something. 
Yes these big animals can be dangerous and temperamental and need discipline. I don't deny this. But a short smack on the neck if they nip you and a sharp word is not abuse. Nor is a smart tap with the whip. 
But this was.


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## Sarah1 (22 July 2010)

liznpatch said:



			its just stupid people looking for the quick fix miracle answer to their naughty dobbin that buy into this rubbish!
		
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The sad thing is the horses often aren't naughty, they're just being horses!  These Parelli fools want to turn them into performing chimps or robots. 

I have never & will never line the pockets of that hideous excuse for a human being or his vile wife. 

Shouted down by a few hundred people Prat?  Try a few hundred thousand you complete & utter moron!


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## SophieRIDSH (22 July 2010)

JekyleandHyde said:



			Please except my apologie x
		
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Accepted


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## Shysmum (22 July 2010)

I dunno, just when they hoped it "might" be dying down over here, eh .

I'm really interested to know what the general vibe is in the US about all this ?  Has it kicked up as much of a stink as over here ? Have there been issues with Parelli before over there ? What's the general view of it all on the forums over there ?  And if anyone is in Australia...same questions !

Sorry, just curious. sm x


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## pippinpie (22 July 2010)

shysmum said:



			I
I'm really interested to know what the general vibe is in the US about all this ?  Has it kicked up as much of a stink as over here ? Have there been issues with Parelli before over there ? What's the general view of it all on the forums over there ?  And if anyone is in Australia...same questions !
		
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Americans have got better causes to fight than to be worried about a twich and rope incident in UK.
If you want to stop horse abuse watch ALL of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RM1I8AnhGWY

then sign this:
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/endwildhorseracing


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## Siesz52 (22 July 2010)

Chris Irwin offered to do a better job with Catwalk for free. 

See

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGfqLkonBg0


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## SophieRIDSH (22 July 2010)

shysmum said:



			I dunno, just when they hoped it "might" be dying down over here, eh .

I'm really interested to know what the general vibe is in the US about all this ?  Has it kicked up as much of a stink as over here ? Have there been issues with Parelli before over there ? What's the general view of it all on the forums over there ?  And if anyone is in Australia...same questions !

Sorry, just curious. sm x
		
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I joined this forum because of a link from the US weekly horse periodical COTH
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=264652
This particular incident has generated fewer posts there than it did here, but it's FAR from the first Parelli thread

Here are a few samples
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=263421&highlight=linda
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=247238&highlight=linda
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=250356&highlight=linda


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## clicker trainner (22 July 2010)

I have read a lots of peoples comments about this Demo. For my own experience I have seen several parelli displays and had a livery who was interested. Have never seen a 'happy' horse at demo's but all look like zombies. I find this trainning very dominating and the only reward is when the pressure is taken off. As for my livery, she went to a course where the instructor hit the horse over the head when the horse would not load in trailer! I have had experience in trainning horses and dogs over 30 years and perfer clicker trainning.


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## jahseh (22 July 2010)

Was looking up the clicker training mentioned several times on this thread and came across this HorseTrainingSecretsExposed.com (sorry dont know how to create a link) I don't think it has anything to do with clicker training? Now this really does seem to be a case of someone offering the quick fix the Parelli's keep getting accused of offering and telling people they need no experience to  be able to train a horse in maybe as little as 4 to 6 hours


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## shortstuff410 (22 July 2010)

Hi everyone,

I just wanted to pop in to put in my 2 cents.  As an American and as a person who uses Parelli techniques, I figured I could bring a perspective you have been asking for.

Let me begin by saying that I am horrified at what Parelli has done.  My faith in the Parelli system has gone down hill in the past few years as my eyes were opened to his horrible attitude and business model.  This event bothered me not necessarily because I believe the procedure was wrong (which is was, but I will get to that in a minute), but because it is a clear case of hypocrisy on Parelli's part.  He prides himself on never using pain or force to control a horse, but he plainly did that here, with no explanation or apology, simply excuses.  I believe that if a horse has become extremely dangerous, or is putting himself in danger, a leg tie or a twitch might be necessary, but only for a very short period of time, until the danger can be resolved.  If Parelli thought it was necessary to use a twitch, he should have used it to get the horse out of that arena and into a calmer environment, not as a training method.  This is the last straw for me, and I will no longer be patronizing the Parelli cooperation.  

That said, I will continue to use the methods I have learned from his programs, because I believe they have greatly helped with the training of my horses.  The gentle approach, and psychological awareness that his methods teach are very helpful.  What he did here was not.

Finally, although this is an awful demonstration of horsemanship, I believe that it is being blown out of proportion.  What he did was wrong, but not evil.  I think that there is some truth to the fact that people who don't like Parelli are using this event to fuel a fire that has been burning a long time.  If any other trainer had done this, not under the guise of natural horsemanship, there might have been a murmuring about fair treatment, but not this all out uproar.  I also worry that his actions will taint the view of all natural horsemanship enthusiasts out there.  Not all natural horsemen, and not all Americans are like this.  This is an isolated case.

Anyway, I know that was long winded, but that is my opinion on the situation.  Thanks for reading.


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## Unbeliever (22 July 2010)

Sarah1 said:



			I have never & will never line the pockets of that hideous excuse for a human being or his vile wife. 

Click to expand...

Nice to see a balanced view of things 

(For the hard of understanding of whom there seem to be a few on this forum, that is sarcasm  )


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## Unbeliever (23 July 2010)

shysmum said:



			Now that has made me REALLY angry ! 

"blown out of proportion"
"a few hundred people upset"

What the hell planet are these people on. Are we blind ? I am absolutely disgusted with Parelli and Whitaker all over again. No this won't just "go away" because we are "hysterical". We want to know the outcome of the BHS/RSPCA investigations. 

I thought I'd buy a few horsey mags today, and there is Brand Parelli splashed all over them, it's an unstoppable money machine. They have their base at Stoneleigh Park, to educate us UK owners-

http://central.parellinaturalhorset...-soldier-and-a-shop-assistant-have-in-common/ 

I bet they are/were planning on doing a demo at the yourHorselive show in November (conveniently at Stoneleigh Park), and yet they treat people who see thru them as imbeciles. 

Enough is enough, get out of the UK and take your ridiculous and overpriced carrot sticks with you.

Sorry, time for a major rant to these arrogant, self absorbed, "we know the best for horses" idiots. I feel much better for that - but be assured, there is plenty more where that came from !!!
		
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You don't accept the word of the owners of a valuable horse.
You don't accept the word of the only vet who examined the horse. (Not the Parelli's vet as I have already informed you, but the RFoTH's)
You don't accept the word of anyone who contradicts you - after all, you *know better.
Yeah right.
I don't know if you were present at the event or not, but I rather suspect not.
As a matter of interest, how rabid was your condemnation of the "Bluetongue" incident, or for that matter the recent issue with Hester?
Your focus seems more to be on your hatred for the Parellis and less on the welfare of the horse.*


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## martlin (23 July 2010)

Thanks for keeping this thread up, Unbeliever, you save us Parelli haters some work.


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## Munchkin (23 July 2010)

Unbeliever said:



			As a matter of interest, how rabid was your condemnation of the "Bluetongue" incident, or for that matter the recent issue with Hester?
Your focus seems more to be on your hatred for the Parellis and less on the welfare of the horse.
		
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All welfare issues are discussed on this forum, at length. Nobody, that I can recall, was in favour of Rollkur. This isn't relevant, as this post is a discussion about Parelli. 

Since you've just joined us, may I ask a question that no Parellist has yet answered for me?

Do you think that what Prat Parelli demonstrated on Catwalk was the "natural horsemanship" that he likes to preach? (Yes or no will suffice.)


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## Unbeliever (23 July 2010)

martlin said:



			Thanks for keeping this thread up, Unbeliever, you save us Parelli haters some work.
		
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Thanks for this. I don't hate anyone.

Speaks volumes for you though


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## martlin (23 July 2010)

Unbeliever said:



			Thanks for this. I don't hate anyone.

Speaks volumes for you though 

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You're welcome
Just rephrased your description of people who don't agree with you though.


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## Munchkin (23 July 2010)

Ignored again, shock horror


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## Unbeliever (23 July 2010)

Munchkin said:



			All welfare issues are discussed on this forum, at length. Nobody, that I can recall, was in favour of Rollkur. This isn't relevant, as this post is a discussion about Parelli. 

Since you've just joined us, may I ask a question that no Parellist has yet answered for me?

Do you think that what Prat Parelli demonstrated on Catwalk was the "natural horsemanship" that he likes to preach? (Yes or no will suffice.)
		
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Ah, one word answers? We all know there's more to any issue than that. "Have you stopped beating your wife / child / horse?"
I've seen the video evidence, I've seen the vet's report (remember this was the official vet )
I've seen the owners comments
I've seen PP's statement
I've seen the posts on the H&H forum.
Guess which seems the most irrational and unreasonable?
When people descbe themselves as "haters", they have lost any credibility they may have had.
As for your question, my own opinion is that Natural Horsemanship is in itself a misnomer as any interaction between horse and man must by definition be unnatural.


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## Unbeliever (23 July 2010)

Munchkin said:



			Ignored again, shock horror 

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Sorry for not hanging on your every word.


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## Unbeliever (23 July 2010)

martlin said:



			You're welcome
Just rephrased your description of people who don't agree with you though.
		
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What description would that be then?


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## Munchkin (23 July 2010)

Ah, my apologies. I did wonder why it was taking so long to type "yes" or "no."

Sweetie, martlin was using something known as "irony" - since you called us haters.

The least rational statements I've read are from Parelli followers who are now praying for us who are not "savvy" and the poor animals in our care.

We've all seen the same things that you've seen. Most of us simply realise that it's wrong to agree with whatever Prat Parelli does purely because he's Prat Parelli. 

You haven't actually answered my question, so I shall rephrase it. Is what PP did to Catwalk a true representation of what he aims to promote with his programme?

Another question. Why did a spokesperson for Parelli say they made mistakes that should be apologised for, if in your eyes, that is not true?


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## martlin (23 July 2010)

Unbeliever said:



			What description would that be then?
		
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Directly from you -'anti rope wigglers', that's a nice one, 'the hard of understanding ones' and general condescending tone of your posts.
To find more precise description of 'us' as 'Parelli haters' I will direct you to several post of your co-followers in this thread alone and many others.


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## Golf Girl (23 July 2010)

Munchkin said:



			Sweetie, martlin was using something known as "irony" - since you called us haters
		
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Em, it was Martlin who called you 'haters' actually


martlin said:



			Thanks for keeping this thread up, Unbeliever, you save us Parelli haters some work.
		
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## Unbeliever (23 July 2010)

Munchkin said:



			Ah, my apologies. I did wonder why it was taking so long to type "yes" or "no."

Sweetie, martlin was using something known as "irony" - since you called us haters.[\QUOTE]

Did I? Maybe you should check


Munchkin said:



			The least rational statements I've read are from Parelli followers who are now praying for us who are not "savvy" and the poor animals in our care.

We've all seen the same things that you've seen. Most of us simply realise that it's wrong to agree with whatever Prat Parelli does purely because he's Prat Parelli. [\QUOTE]

Couldn't agree more. No one has all the answers, but by the same token most have something to contribute.



Munchkin said:



			You haven't actually answered my question, so I shall rephrase it. Is what PP did to Catwalk a true representation of what he aims to promote with his programme?[\Quote]

I know. I wasn't there! That's my point. Neither were the vast majority of those who were so quick to condemn. All the footage I have seen is pretty equivocal. You can see what you want to see. But there's nothing so horrific that should generate the level of condemnation I've seen, and certainly no evidence of the "abuse" which has been been so hysterically condemned.



Munchkin said:



			Another question. Why did a spokesperson for Parelli say they made mistakes that should be apologised for, if in your eyes, that is not true?
		
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I don't speak for the Parelli organisation, so it's unfair to ask me that as you probably know. I would suggest you read their statements fully to see what they apologise for.

BTW apologies for the appearance of this response. Can't seem to get the quotes to work correctly.
		
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## baymareb (23 July 2010)

"we are ready to accept that nothing we nor our community of Parelli practitioners say will change the mind of a few hundred people *who are out to shout us down*"

Translation:

_We did nothing wrong.

Anyone who says we did something wrong is not actually concerned with the horse's welfare - they are only interested in destroying our credibility._

Arrogant ass.  As if people have nothing better to do with their time than engage in a conspiracy to ruin Pat Parelli.

No, Pat.  Actually, it IS about the horse.  And about your own false promotion of yourself as someone who establishes trust, avoids mechanical means and restraints and who listens to what the horse is telling you.


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## Sarah1 (23 July 2010)

Unbeliever said:



			Nice to see a balanced view of things 

(For the hard of understanding of whom there seem to be a few on this forum, that is sarcasm  )
		
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This post is 150+ pages long - I haven't just jumped on the band wagon with a sweeping statement, I've watched the videos, I've seen the previous videos and have to say after careful consideration I think they're a pair of fools, hypocritical fools at that!  

Thanks for your reply tho (that too is sarcastic, in case you were wondering)


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## pippinpie (23 July 2010)

shysmum said:



			I'm really interested to know what the general vibe is in the US about all this ?  Has it kicked up as much of a stink as over here ? Have there been issues with Parelli before over there ? What's the general view of it all on the forums over there ?  And if anyone is in Australia...same questions !
		
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pippinpie said:



			Americans have got better causes to fight than to be worried about a twich and rope incident in UK.
If you want to stop horse abuse watch ALL of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RM1I8AnhGWY

then sign this:
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/endwildhorseracing

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No comments on this I posted yesterday?
I wish posters could use as much passion in help stamp out real abuse!


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## martlin (23 July 2010)

There already was thread about the rodeo, Pippinpie. I believe in appeared in Nel Lounge, Competition Riders and Latest News, has been started by Kerilli and several HHOers have signed the petition.
This thread, however is about Pat Parelli and his abuse of the horse.


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## jahseh (23 July 2010)

martlin said:



			There already was thread about the rodeo, Pippinpie. I believe in appeared in Nel Lounge, Competition Riders and Latest News, has been started by Kerilli and several HHOers have signed the petition.
This thread, however is about Pat Parelli and his abuse of the horse.
		
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An awful lot of this seems to be about perception and definition. What exactly is your definition of abuse as mine and others seems to vary on both sides of yours and mine. It would be interesting to know as then we might be able to understand each other better.


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## martlin (23 July 2010)

from on-line dictionary:

*a·buse  *(-byz)
tr.v. a·bused, a·bus·ing, a·bus·es
1. To use wrongly or improperly; misuse: abuse alcohol; abuse a privilege.
2. To hurt or injure by maltreatment; ill-use.
3. To force sexual activity on; rape or molest.
4. To assail with contemptuous, coarse, or insulting words; revile.
5. Obsolete To deceive or trick.
n. (-bys)
1. Improper use or handling; misuse: abuse of authority; drug abuse.
2. Physical maltreatment: spousal abuse.
3. Sexual abuse.
4. An unjust or wrongful practice: a government that commits abuses against its citizens.
5. Insulting or coarse language: verbal abuse.
Idiom:
abuse oneself Vulgar
To masturbate.
[Middle English abusen, from Old French abuser, from abus, improper use, from Latin absus, past participle of abt, to misuse : ab-, away; see ab-1 + t, to use.]
a·buser n.
*Synonyms:* abuse, misuse, mistreat, ill-treat, maltreat
These verbs mean to treat wrongfully or harmfully. Abuse applies to injurious or improper treatment: "We abuse land because we regard it as a commodity belonging to us" (Aldo Leopold).
Misuse stresses incorrect or unknowledgeable handling: "How often misused words generate misleading thoughts" (Herbert Spencer).
Mistreat, ill-treat, and maltreat all share the sense of inflicting injury, often intentionally: "I had seen many more patients die from being mistreated for consumption than from consumption itself" (Earl of Lytton). The army had orders not to ill-treat the prisoners. "When we misuse [a language other than our native language], we are in fact trying to reduce its element of foreignness. We let ourselves maltreat it as though it naturally belonged to us" (Manchester Guardian Weekly).

I personally used the word 'abuse' in the meaning of gross mistreatment.


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## liznpatch (23 July 2010)

Toby_Zaphod said:



			"we are ready to accept that nothing we nor our community of Parelli practitioners say will change the mind of a few hundred people who are out to shout us down"

The arrogance of Parelli seems to know no bounds!
		
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The whole practice is based on cr*p and its good that finally, in full public view, parelli got shown for what he is - a fraud.


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## liznpatch (23 July 2010)

elsbells said:



			I was just going to start this thread and was wondering where we all are? So well done you, it should be a good one.

It was my first Parelli experience and it will be my last!!!!

We confronted him and spoke to Robert as he came out. We got our money back too, although it's not enough as far as I'm concerned. Pat told us that he was going to give the horse the same treatment every day of the show at Roberts stables and at his request....................FOR THE GOOD OF THE HORSE!!
		
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sounds like it was for the "good of parelli" trying to claw back some self respect.  I hope this opens eyes of the public as to what an idiot parelli is and how is methods are just tragic abuse of people with problems which could be sorted out by a qualified, bhs instructor not some idiot with a 20 ft rope!


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## Shysmum (23 July 2010)

What can I say ?  It's all about the horse, and also the fact that other horses may be/are being subjected to this treatment, as let's face it, it'll probably end up on the next training video. 

There is an excellent thread by Janet George regarding the petition (wild horse racing) and I hope everyone does sign it, but this thread is discussing (at very great length) the Parelli issue. I don't "hate" anyone - but I have a very deep and almost concrete dislike of animal abusers, liars, arrogance and greedy people, especially who use our beloved horses to exploit that greed . Does that explain it better ? 

The threads from the US (thanks so much for putting them on) are very interesting. 

sm x


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## snowmanbaby (23 July 2010)

teddyt said:



			curiouser and curiouser 



Maybe she didnt agree with ripping people off for left handed lunge lines etc 

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8j25pS6ixWk 

 the guy in the blue shirt and white jumper draped fetchingly over his shoulder is James Roberts
the day after....  watch to the end


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## babybird68 (23 July 2010)

At last proof that all this so called "natural horsemanship"  is  a load of cobblers performed by idots !!!  The only person that is a true natural horseman is Monty Roberts and only because he has years of experience and that is the key  EXPERIENCE !!! 
You cant teach a novice to be a natural horseman in a day or even in a clinic 
It is just not that easy !!  The rescue centres are full of horses with mental problems caused by well meaning humans!! 
What people fail to recognise is the the horse already knows how to be a horse , we  as humans have to learn to read our horses better and look to ourselves for the perceived failings of our equine friends !!!


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## clicker trainner (23 July 2010)

babybird68 said:



			At last proof that all this so called "natural horsemanship"  is  a load of cobblers performed by idots !!!  The only person that is a true natural horseman is Monty Roberts and only because he has years of experience and that is the key  EXPERIENCE !!! 
You cant teach a novice to be a natural horseman in a day or even in a clinic 
It is just not that easy !!  The rescue centres are full of horses with mental problems caused by well meaning humans!! 
What people fail to recognise is the the horse already knows how to be a horse , we  as humans have to learn to read our horses better and look to ourselves for the perceived failings of our equine friends !!!
		
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Agree with your comments that you cannot teach a novice natural horsemanship in a day, it takes years. Not sure that Monty is the only good person as saw Micheal Peace a while a ago and he was good. 
Wish the parelli lot would not treat it like a religon and be open minded to other trainning methods. This really is such a negative form of working a horse and it takes the spirit out of them. If it really is that good why are all the top riders and trainners not using it?  Why do the only people I know
using this method try to make their horse into a circus dog?


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## AengusOg (23 July 2010)

pippinpie said:



			Americans have got better causes to fight than to be worried about a twich and rope incident in UK.
If you want to stop horse abuse watch ALL of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RM1I8AnhGWY

then sign this:
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/endwildhorseracing

Click to expand...

So what are you saying...that out of sight is out of mind, perhaps?

Or that it doesn't really matter what happened to one horse in England, at the hands of old PP, as there are many thousands of horses in America which suffer much worse?

In my opinion we all have to be aware of, and act on, any case where a horse is unfairly used. Perhaps old PP should be back home in the states taking care of all the needy horses you have over there, instead of trying to preach to the converted over here.

There are plenty of issues of cruelty and abuse for him to be occupied for the rest of his life over there, such as helping all the horses which are specially bred and trained to be rodeo rides, for a start. Oh, sorry, I forgot, he was one of those rodeo riders once, wasn't he, when he was trying to draw attention to himself as top cowboy? Perhaps, with old PP, it's a case of 'been there, done that, so lets take-over the world'. 

Maybe it's called Parelli Natural Horsemanship because that sort of treatment of horses, historically, is kinda natural in the USA. If the old cowboy films were anything to go by, with horses going hollow backed every where, trip wires being used to take them down purely for dramatic effect on the film set, vicious use of spurs and reins according to what mood the director wanted to portray in the rider,...that's definitely the way to teach them young folks about horsemanship.  Attitudes like that caused such seemingly natural (ab)use of horses in America to be perceived as normal and acceptable by society.

Of course, any person standing against such use of horses must be applauded. Old PP is driven, I'm sure, by his need to spread the word that there is a better, more humane way to get the best from horses...except he doesn't really fully believe that, does he? If he did, he would surely stick to the practices he preaches.

I have always been amused by the American attitude that they must teach the rest of the world just about everything as if they are the originators of all knowledge when, actually, non-native Americans came from all over the world originally, with their horses, to America. There was a world before America. There were good and bad horsemen all over the world before America became 'civilised', and there are good and bad horsemen still all over the world. Those who didn't go (to the States) stayed at home, working their horses very successfully. These are the people from whom we learned the 'traditional' ways, which are so much frowned-upon by novice horse owners today. 

There is no shame to being a novice. It could be argued that a novice, especially if he has no preconceived ideas of something of which he knows little, may be the best student.  However, there is a very strong undercurrent of distaste for 'traditional' horsemanship in PNH adherents. They seem to have thrown the baby out with the bathwater because, when asked, they actually know little or nothing of 'traditional' horsemanship. 

What else could be expected, though, when old PP sets himself up as the 'true way and the light' and (apparently) will use any means to overshadow all else. His problem is, he hasn't got the time to take the time it takes.


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## martlin (23 July 2010)

AengusOg said:



			So what are you saying...that out of sight is out of mind, perhaps?

Or that it doesn't really matter what happened to one horse in England, at the hands of old PP, as there are many thousands of horses in America which suffer much worse?

In my opinion we all have to be aware of, and act on, any case where a horse is unfairly used. Perhaps old PP should be back home in the states taking care of all the needy horses you have over there, instead of trying to preach to the converted over here.

There are plenty of issues of cruelty and abuse for him to be occupied for the rest of his life over there, such as helping all the horses which are specially bred and trained to be rodeo rides, for a start. Oh, sorry, I forgot, he was one of those rodeo riders once, wasn't he, when he was trying to draw attention to himself as top cowboy? Perhaps, with old PP, it's a case of 'been there, done that, so lets take-over the world'. 

Maybe it's called Parelli Natural Horsemanship because that sort of treatment of horses, historically, is kinda natural in the USA. If the old cowboy films were anything to go by, with horses going hollow backed every where, trip wires being used to take them down purely for dramatic effect on the film set, vicious use of spurs and reins according to what mood the director wanted to portray in the rider,...that's definitely the way to teach them young folks about horsemanship.  Attitudes like that caused such seemingly natural (ab)use of horses in America to be perceived as normal and acceptable by society.

Of course, any person standing against such use of horses must be applauded. Old PP is driven, I'm sure, by his need to spread the word that there is a better, more humane way to get the best from horses...except he doesn't really fully believe that, does he? If he did, he would surely stick to the practices he preaches.

*I have always been amused by the American attitude that they must teach the rest of the world just about everything as if they are the originators of all knowledge* when, actually, non-native Americans came from all over the world originally, with their horses, to America. There was a world before America. There were good and bad horsemen all over the world before America became 'civilised', and there are good and bad horsemen still all over the world. Those who didn't go (to the States) stayed at home, working their horses very successfully. These are the people from whom we learned the 'traditional' ways, which are so much frowned-upon by novice horse owners today. 

There is no shame to being a novice. It could be argued that a novice, especially if he has no preconceived ideas of something of which he knows little, may be the best student.  However, there is a very strong undercurrent of distaste for 'traditional' horsemanship in PNH adherents. They seem to have thrown the baby out with the bathwater because, when asked, they actually know little or nothing of 'traditional' horsemanship. 

What else could be expected, though, when old PP sets himself up as the 'true way and the light' and (apparently) will use any means to overshadow all else. His problem is, he hasn't got the time to take the time it takes.;D
		
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As much as I agree with pretty much everything you have written, the highlighted bit did make me giggle as, funny enough, that's exactly the sort of attitude I see as a British national trait
It might come from the Empire, who knows, but the amount of times I hear and read about 'educating those people' is staggering


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## jahseh (23 July 2010)

martlin said:



			from on-line dictionary:

*a·buse  *(-byz)
tr.v. a·bused, a·bus·ing, a·bus·es
1. To use wrongly or improperly; misuse: abuse alcohol; abuse a privilege.
2. To hurt or injure by maltreatment; ill-use.
3. To force sexual activity on; rape or molest.
4. To assail with contemptuous, coarse, or insulting words; revile.
5. Obsolete To deceive or trick.
n. (-bys)
1. Improper use or handling; misuse: abuse of authority; drug abuse.
2. Physical maltreatment: spousal abuse.
3. Sexual abuse.
4. An unjust or wrongful practice: a government that commits abuses against its citizens.
5. Insulting or coarse language: verbal abuse.
Idiom:
abuse oneself Vulgar
To masturbate.
[Middle English abusen, from Old French abuser, from abus, improper use, from Latin absus, past participle of abt, to misuse : ab-, away; see ab-1 + t, to use.]
a·buser n.
*Synonyms:* abuse, misuse, mistreat, ill-treat, maltreat
These verbs mean to treat wrongfully or harmfully. Abuse applies to injurious or improper treatment: "We abuse land because we regard it as a commodity belonging to us" (Aldo Leopold).
Misuse stresses incorrect or unknowledgeable handling: "How often misused words generate misleading thoughts" (Herbert Spencer).
Mistreat, ill-treat, and maltreat all share the sense of inflicting injury, often intentionally: "I had seen many more patients die from being mistreated for consumption than from consumption itself" (Earl of Lytton). The army had orders not to ill-treat the prisoners. "When we misuse [a language other than our native language], we are in fact trying to reduce its element of foreignness. We let ourselves maltreat it as though it naturally belonged to us" (Manchester Guardian Weekly).

I personally used the word 'abuse' in the meaning of gross mistreatment.
		
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Well even within the dictionary definition a wide range of meaning, for myself the term has always denoted something which causes physical injury, causes permanant or long term damage or suffering mentally or physically either through positive actions and or sustained neglect or mistreatment.
When you also add in the fact that everyones perceptions of any given event are always different it's a wonder anyone ever understands each other or agrees on anything. 
Having seen horses who have suffered abuse in my meaning of the word to me calling what happened with Catwalk abuse doesn't add up, the two just don't compare. 
When you add in the perception issue this is even more contentious as some people have said that; that is what they can tell actually happened, with talk of wounds, broken spirit, twiches, hobbles drugs etc. etc. which no matter how much I look at the evidence available to me I just can't see.
When you then add in the vociferous personal attacks on the parellis not just in the context of this demonstration but about their business model, personal presentation, history, relationship etc. it all becomes very ugly and unedifying. Indeed lots of what has been said although not by any means all could definitely be classed as abuse as in 4 of the dictionary meaning in your post and in my terms. If you then add in the fact that the generalisation has spread to anyone who uses any of the techniques parelli teaches (and even in some instances using any of their equipment) I can definitely see why Robert Whittaker might say it has been blown out of all proportion.

Lots of old adages come to mind like innocent until proven guilty, treat others as you would like them to treat you, look to the log in your own eye before worrying about the speck in your brothers etc. etc. Now I suspect I will be accused of all sorts of things form arrogance through ignorance and patronization (is that even a word) and should prepare myself for lots more abuse from some!


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## martlin (23 July 2010)

jahseh said:



			Well even within the dictionary definition a wide range of meaning, for myself the term has always denoted something which causes physical injury, causes permanant or long term damage or suffering mentally or physically either through positive actions and or sustained neglect or mistreatment.
When you also add in the fact that everyones perceptions of any given event are always different it's a wonder anyone ever understands each other or agrees on anything. 
Having seen horses who have suffered abuse in my meaning of the word to me calling what happened with Catwalk abuse doesn't add up, the two just don't compare. 
When you add in the perception issue this is even more contentious as some people have said that; that is what they can tell actually happened, with talk of wounds, broken spirit, twiches, hobbles drugs etc. etc. which no matter how much I look at the evidence available to me I just can't see.
When you then add in the vociferous personal attacks on the parellis not just in the context of this demonstration but about their business model, personal presentation, history, relationship etc. it all becomes very ugly and unedifying. Indeed lots of what has been said although not by any means all could definitely be classed as abuse as in 4 of the dictionary meaning in your post and in my terms. If you then add in the fact that the generalisation has spread to anyone who uses any of the techniques parelli teaches (and even in some instances using any of their equipment) I can definitely see why Robert Whittaker might say it has been blown out of all proportion.

Lots of old adages come to mind like innocent until proven guilty, treat others as you would like them to treat you, look to the log in your own eye before worrying about the speck in your brothers etc. etc. Now I suspect I will be accused of all sorts of things form arrogance through ignorance and patronization (is that even a word) and should prepare myself for lots more abuse from some!
		
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You're not going to get shouted at by me.
I have stated in what context I have used the word 'abuse', in fact, if you have a look at my previous posts on that subject, you will see that I in general try not to determine if Catwalk's treatment amounts to abuse or not. 
I have also absolutely nothing against making money, I believe, however, that the demo in question was near enough professional and PR suicide.
Basically, PP doesn't practise what he preaches, he should not be particularly surprised that people where dissatisfied to say the least, his behaviour was inappropriate and distasteful.


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## Bryant (23 July 2010)

Sounds awful.
thehobbling part neways!!
i think you can train any horse if you repeat things enough, so it understands itll be allryt and gain its trust. I dont think you should fall hook line and sinker for one training method i think you should use a mix of methods to find out what is right for your horse! I definately don't agree with abuse or stopping them from being able to do their natural flight response by tying their legs up that is ridiculous! But im not against twitching although you are only suppose to twitch for 20 minutes at a time- but it does release endorphins so although it doesnt look nice, if a horse is dangerous to handle e.g. when clipping i arnt against it as it relaxes them so will cause less trauma for them and possibly less damage to horse and/or handler! 
I think parelli needs to make a public apology as this sounds like it was far from the kind and natural methods we usually see the parellis use!


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## martlin (23 July 2010)

Gum twitch is a completely different kettle of fish than lip twitch though...


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## teddyt (23 July 2010)

snowmanbaby said:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8j25pS6ixWk 

 the guy in the blue shirt and white jumper draped fetchingly over his shoulder is James Roberts
the day after....  watch to the end
		
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Im not sure about the point youre making here??


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## jahseh (23 July 2010)

martlin said:



			You're not going to get shouted at by me.
I have stated in what context I have used the word 'abuse', in fact, if you have a look at my previous posts on that subject, you will see that I in general try not to determine if Catwalk's treatment amounts to abuse or not. 
I have also absolutely nothing against making money, I believe, however, that the demo in question was near enough professional and PR suicide.
Basically, PP doesn't practise what he preaches, he should not be particularly surprised that people where dissatisfied to say the least, his behaviour was inappropriate and distasteful.
		
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Didn't think I would from you, throughout your posts as far as I can see or remember you have always been resonable and temperate in your views, language etc. and you stick to specifics and don't paint with a broad brush. I agree with much of what you have said but remain amazed at the prejudice, abuse, dogma and downright nastiness about various things and from various points of view from SOME posters.


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## pippinpie (23 July 2010)

AengusOg said:



			So what are you saying...that out of sight is out of mind, perhaps?

Or that it doesn't really matter what happened to one horse in England, at the hands of old PP, as there are many thousands of horses in America which suffer much worse?
		
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No, I was trying to make the point that I hope people  would use as much passion towards other more needy abuse cases as they have in this thread.
I have not seen any other threads about the 'Rodeo', so glad if people have seen it and signed to help stop it.


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## snowmanbaby (23 July 2010)

teddyt said:



			Im not sure about the point youre making here??
		
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people were asking if James Roberts had anything to do with P.P.  and if he really was there, or not...  see pages 89 and onwards ...


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## baymareb (23 July 2010)

There was a question earlier about what the reaction to all this was in America.  As an American, I can say there is a good deal of discussion about it, among people at riding centers and on American message boards.

Virtually every message board that I use or follow has had at least one - usually more - thread about this.  The vast majority of people posting were appalled and angry.  People at my boarding facility are talking about it and again, the majority are upset.

There is a perception among some that Americans as a whole embrace the natural horsemanship movement generally and the Parellis specifically.  That could not be further from the truth.  While NH has caught on in many sectors of the horse world, it is far from being universal.  The Parellis in particular generate much controversy here and there is a large sector of the American horse world that has never been happy with their methods.  This incident has only confirmed what many already felt.

There is also the perception that the majority of Americans have traditionally followed the "Wild West" break-em and beat-em philosophy of horse training.  That too is incorrect.  The great majority of Eastern trainers and handlers have gentled horses for generations using slow, sensible methods that include handling from birth and patient work leading to a calm and easy backing at the age of about 4.  Many, many trainers and handlers in the western and midwestern states do the same and while NH advocates claim that the methods are meant to replace those "cowboy" methods, the truth is those methods weren't being practiced much anymore anyway.

Hope that helps give you a sense of the feeling over here, at least from where I live and ride.


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## pippinpie (23 July 2010)

An excellent post BMb.
I do feel embarrassed at the way some Brits on this thread 'shoot their mouth off' without engaging their brains first.


baymareb said:



			There was a question earlier about what the reaction to all this was in America.  As an American, I can say there is a good deal of discussion about it, among people at riding centers and on American message boards.

Virtually every message board that I use or follow has had at least one - usually more - thread about this.  The vast majority of people posting were appalled and angry.  People at my boarding facility are talking about it and again, the majority are upset.

There is a perception among some that Americans as a whole embrace the natural horsemanship movement generally and the Parellis specifically.  That could not be further from the truth.  While NH has caught on in many sectors of the horse world, it is far from being universal.  The Parellis in particular generate much controversy here and there is a large sector of the American horse world that has never been happy with their methods.  This incident has only confirmed what many already felt.

There is also the perception that the majority of Americans have traditionally followed the "Wild West" break-em and beat-em philosophy of horse training.  That too is incorrect.  The great majority of Eastern trainers and handlers have gentled horses for generations using slow, sensible methods that include handling from birth and patient work leading to a calm and easy backing at the age of about 4.  Many, many trainers and handlers in the western and midwestern states do the same and while NH advocates claim that the methods are meant to replace those "cowboy" methods, the truth is those methods weren't being practiced much anymore anyway.

Hope that helps give you a sense of the feeling over here, at least from where I live and ride.
		
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## pippinpie (23 July 2010)

Just a quick explanation about 'left handed lunge lines' that some can't seem to get their heads around.
What you are referring to is the 45' rope, this rope is made with a particular twist in it so that it can be coiled up in a certain way to keep it in a tidy 'circle' for easy of carrying/use and if you are left handed this is very difficult and the twist will work against you making it impossible to coil it up, so left handed ropes are made with the twist going in the opposite direction.
No con!
Simple really


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## Shysmum (23 July 2010)

Thanks, BmB, really interesting. It was hard to get a true perspective, having read the almost "cult like" posts on some of the sites I've read, and somehow - it just didn't ring true.. thanks so much sm x


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## pippinpie (23 July 2010)

snowmanbaby said:



			people were asking if James Roberts had anything to do with P.P.  and if he really was there, or not...  see pages 89 and onwards ...
		
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James Roberts is one of the UK's top Parelli Professionals, He is extremely well thought of in all disciplines and is an excellent horse starter and has his own very successful career.
He is the one that Robert Whitaker took his horses to when he had a problem and James has helped many non-Parelli members.
PS. James Roberts was sitting with Robert Whitaker through the entire Demo with Catwalk, and he helped work with Catwalk the next day as you all saw in the Video.


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## snowmanbaby (23 July 2010)

pippinpie said:



			James Roberts is one of the UK's top Parelli Professionals, He is extremely well thought of in all disciplines and is an excellent horse starter and has his own very successful career.
He is the one that Robert Whitaker took his horses to when he had a problem and James has helped many non-Parelli members.
PS. James Roberts was sitting with Robert Whitaker through the entire Demo with Catwalk, and he helped work with Catwalk the next day as you all saw in the Video.
		
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SO ROBERT WHITAKER   W A S   THERE THEN, ... AND THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE DEMO???

not what Robert Whitaker says himself... but are you his spokesperson??


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## snowmanbaby (23 July 2010)

martlin said:



			As much as I agree with pretty much everything you have written, the highlighted bit did make me giggle as, funny enough, that's exactly the sort of attitude I see as a British national trait
It might come from the Empire, who knows, but the amount of times I hear and read about 'educating those people' is staggering

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MARTLIN... just got to say... I have loved every post you have written... you are fantastic... would so love to meet you... you make me smile every day... and know and take comfort from that there are still, thankfully, plenty of lovely people like you out there!   

xxx


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## Echo Bravo (23 July 2010)

So Robert Whittaker was there all the time, WELL! WELL! WELL!. Makes you wonder about true horsemanship or the money in showjumping!!


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## Tinypony (23 July 2010)

"left handed lunge lines" aren't lunge lines, they are roping lariats.  That's why the twist is so important.   They just happen to use them for groundwork in Parelli.


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## snowmanbaby (23 July 2010)

jahseh said:



			As far as I understand it the horse had been running over the top of the handler because it was so interested in something off screen that it was paying no attention to the people in its vicinity and was in danger of injuring someone. 
Throughout most of the clip the horse is still ignoring the person on the end of the rope so it obviously wasn't that bothered or it would have transfered its attention to that person, however it was at least no longer stepping on or pushing through that person. 
As for the horse being humiliated I haven't ever noticed a horse displaying that emotion I don't think a horse would understand humiliation even if you could explain the concept to it.
The purpose of the actions as far as I understand it was to gain the horses attention and keep people safe.
Whether you would, I would or others would have used other methods in such a situation and how effective they would be is as far as I can see a far more relevant question and of more concern, than any imaginary emotion the horse may feel. 
Also has the horse owner or anyone associated with it indicated that the horse suffered any harm of a minor or major kind because of what is shown on the video? Is the horse now terribly head shy? Was it cut damaged etc? Does anyone know? Whilst horses are herbivores thay are large and can present a danger to people just by being the size they are and discounting the people around them. Would it have been better to allow someone to be injured in that way?
If I had been in that situation I might have been content with getting the horse away from me and let it continue to stare until it got bored providing it didn't keep crowding in on top of me or anyone else but as I wasn't there; I don't know.
		
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PRIDE... DIGNITY...  HUMILIATION...all the same emotion just in differing levels of positive,  neutral, or negative.  P.P.  HIMSELF  COMMENTED  that he stopped and  PRESERVEDM  CATWALKS dignity...   (MY ARSE...)  the horse had been bullied and man handled for hours...    no dignity there... but this is a game of semantics... SO  p.p  can use the term  "dignity, or pride"  (positive words)  but not  "humiliation"  same emotion, just different terms...



back me up here friends...  SO...  P.P.  accepts that dignity and pride are acceptable terms.... but "humiliation"  which I fear is the foundation for much of his teaching... is NOT SOMETHING HORSES UNDERSTAND...

Get a dictionary!!!!!!!!!!!  hypocrite....


again... the same old ... same old...   we will use words we LIKE... but not what we don't like... (thinking....   cheque book..,..  idiot unexperienced people messing horses up...  but OH... the English Language is PRIVATE TO PARELLI..      LET'S SEE..,.  GAMES.... usually means happiness and fun... NOT in the Parelli Bible ..   they have their own dictionary... we sad individuals did not pcik up on throughout our lives with horses...

PRIDE ... DIGNITY... HUMILIATION.... FEAR.....


So NOW Parelli can EVEN  argue with  the dictoniary ....  and pick and choose the words they like to promote their money spinning.

SORRY.m    but if PAT PARELLI HIMSELF... in ALL of this can write to the worlds public at large,. talking about the horses'  "DIGNITY"  then I too can comment on the horses; humiliation... same emotion,  just different levels...
THAT HORSE WAS ABUSED AND HUMILIATED.  FULL BLOOMING STOP.   AND SOMEONE WROTE A CHEQUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## pippinpie (23 July 2010)

snowmanbaby said:



			SO ROBERT WHITAKER   W A S   THERE THEN, ... AND THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE DEMO???

not what Robert Whitaker says himself... but are you his spokesperson??
		
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No are you?
I said throught the Catwalk demo!


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## Shysmum (23 July 2010)

more twists and turns than Midsomer Murders......so just who is telling the truth


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## diamonddogs (23 July 2010)

Can I just say that Stoneleigh Park is owned by the Royal Agricultural Society of England (RASE) not the BHS, who have temporary offices there while their headquarters is being rebuilt at Stoneleigh *Deer* Park, two miles away, so please can we stop these "I'm seriously considering cancelling my membership of the BHS because of this" type posts.

They rent (or even own) a building on Stoneleigh Park, as do, to name but a few, the BEF, BE, BD, BS, The Pony Club, the NFU, Farmers Weekly, Lantra, and... Parelli.

Anyway, now I've got that out of my system...!

I have no problem with any method that works for my horse (another hard to bridle one, but I take the bridle to pieces and reassemble it on her head, taking as long as it takes to do so, though it's actually the bit she has a problem with), though I tend to favour the methods of Mark Rashid, Kelly Marks and Michael Peace, but no Parelli, thanks, because I've heard some very sad tales of horses being passed from pillar to post after Parelli training, which seems to be something you can't readily train them out of, for some reason. Time and patience seem to work best, I've found, qualities that come free of charge. Left handed ropes? Dear god, they'll be selling sky hooks and tartan paint next. 

As far as personalities go, I've never had any time for either of the Parellis or Whitaker, even before all this furore.


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## martlin (23 July 2010)

snowmanbaby said:



			MARTLIN... just got to say... I have loved every post you have written... you are fantastic... would so love to meet you... you make me smile every day... and know and take comfort from that there are still, thankfully, plenty of lovely people like you out there!   

xxx
		
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Woaahh, steady now you got me blushing here
I'm not that nice, honest, I just think before posting, that's all


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## GerasHorse (24 July 2010)

A simple fact is that people who shout the loudest know the least. People are so quick to judge and it's perfectly normal and natural behavior. Calling Parelli names won't make you any better and won't make your horses any better. Pat has proved himself a million times - not to us, but to his horses, because it's their opinion that actually matters. If you don't understand the principles and the purpose then it does look like Pat is torturing the horse, however the follow-up videos say it all. Pat and Catwalk are putting on a bridle with confidence and for life! Pat and Catwalk did it together. Pat does things for the horse not TO the horse and it's a big difference. Catwalk will never have a bad bridling day again in his life. Pat did what he had to do for this horse - meaning he was assertive. It wasn't a lesson for us called "this is how you should bridle the horse", Pat has the knowledge and the ability to do things we can't and perhaps we don't understand. But asking for an appology from Parelli is like asking for an appology from the policeman who arrested your best friend for drunk driving.


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## mybaileysglide (24 July 2010)

So what has he actually apologised for then???


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## jahseh (24 July 2010)

snowmanbaby said:



			PRIDE... DIGNITY...  HUMILIATION...all the same emotion just in differing levels of positive,  neutral, or negative.  P.P.  HIMSELF  COMMENTED  that he stopped and  PRESERVEDM  CATWALKS dignity...   (MY ARSE...)  the horse had been bullied and man handled for hours...    no dignity there... but this is a game of semantics... SO  p.p  can use the term  "dignity, or pride"  (positive words)  but not  "humiliation"  same emotion, just different terms...



back me up here friends...  SO...  P.P.  accepts that dignity and pride are acceptable terms.... but "humiliation"  which I fear is the foundation for much of his teaching... is NOT SOMETHING HORSES UNDERSTAND...

Get a dictionary!!!!!!!!!!!  hypocrite....


again... the same old ... same old...   we will use words we LIKE... but not what we don't like... (thinking....   cheque book..,..  idiot unexperienced people messing horses up...  but OH... the English Language is PRIVATE TO PARELLI..      LET'S SEE..,.  GAMES.... usually means happiness and fun... NOT in the Parelli Bible ..   they have their own dictionary... we sad individuals did not pcik up on throughout our lives with horses...

PRIDE ... DIGNITY... HUMILIATION.... FEAR.....


So NOW Parelli can EVEN  argue with  the dictoniary ....  and pick and choose the words they like to promote their money spinning.

SORRY.m    but if PAT PARELLI HIMSELF... in ALL of this can write to the worlds public at large,. talking about the horses'  "DIGNITY"  then I too can comment on the horses; humiliation... same emotion,  just different levels...
THAT HORSE WAS ABUSED AND HUMILIATED.  FULL BLOOMING STOP.   AND SOMEONE WROTE A CHEQUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
		
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Actually my name isn't Parelli and I have no notion if he thinks horses know or understand or feel humiliation but I definitely don't. I think the concept of a horse feeling humiliated is ridiculous. That is my personal opinion and I am as entitled to that as you are to yours and he is to his. It is a totally different thing for someone to feel humiliated on the horses behalf and I am quite willing to believe that happened, but the other is again in my opinion anthropomophism at it's highest. 
I am not sure about dignity either in the way it applies to how we feel as humans. I think a horse has an innate dignity a lot of the time something about their size strength ratio maybe not sure but I don't think it's something they are concious of as I have never seen a horse ashamed or self concious in the way a humiliated person is.
I do not speak for the parelli organization and don't know their thoughts on humiliation.
In respect to the seven games being fun or otherwise for a horse mine definitely enjoys six of them very much. The other one I don't think she minds but doesn't enter into with as much gusto as the others. I am sure not all horses would like them as much and some probably enjoy them more just as some horses like to jump and others don't, or work in a school or not, or hack out or not etc.etc.
I am not an inexperienced horse person in traditional terms and neither are lots of other people who practice Parelli techniques although some are, just as everyone is a novice at some point what ever form of horsemanship they are practicing. I am however a relative novice in Parelli techniques and found it a novel and somewhat uncomfortable experience to going back to being inept with equipment etc. as well as a challenge not to have the theory and pool of knowledge ready on tap at a subconcious level. 
What ever you believe about the Parelli's personal motivations and whether you find their techniques, personal profiles, business practices etc. to be in line with everything they say to dismiss everything they offer in the way of education as if all of it has no value is just the other face of the coin you believe he is dealing!
As for being money spinning we live in a capitalist society and as far as I am aware it is not a crime to make money or even something most people find unacceptable, I haven't seen the Parelli tax returns and don't know how much net profit the business makes or the personal wealth of the parelli's as individuals. I don't know how they spend their personal money whether they indulge in huge conspicuous consumption or are massive philanthropists and I am not sure I care or that it is my or anyone elses business but theirs. If it has overwhelming importance for you perhaps you should look up the facts and figures so you can speak with authority or have you already done so?
To repeat what I have said in other posts lots of horses are ruined or damaged by inexperienced  and bad handling in what ever form of horsemanship you are talking about. More by traditional methods badly done than by parelli or other natural horsemanship methods badly done simply because there are very many more people practicing what might be termed the traditional techniques than the NH methods and therefore the pool is much larger. I don't know percentage wise which is larger and I am sure a statistical answer would be very hard to arrive at. As to produce an accurate result you would have to use horses only ever handled by the one method, not a problem with traditionally trained horses more of a problem with the NH ones as again the pool is much narrower.
Lastly are we sure this was paid for or are the publics horses used in demos volunteered?


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## mybaileysglide (24 July 2010)

So, WHAT has he actually apologised for then????


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## jahseh (24 July 2010)

Diamonddawg , I believe the left handed rope thing was explained a few posts before yours. Its a matter of the way it's twisted apparently I suppose it's another thing lefties need like left handed scissors etc.
post by pippinpie top of page 160.


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## mybaileysglide (24 July 2010)

So what has he actually apologised for then????!!!!!


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## mybaileysglide (24 July 2010)

baymareb said:



			There was a question earlier about what the reaction to all this was in America.  As an American, I can say there is a good deal of discussion about it, among people at riding centers and on American message boards.

Virtually every message board that I use or follow has had at least one - usually more - thread about this.  The vast majority of people posting were appalled and angry.  People at my boarding facility are talking about it and again, the majority are upset.

There is a perception among some that Americans as a whole embrace the natural horsemanship movement generally and the Parellis specifically.  That could not be further from the truth.  While NH has caught on in many sectors of the horse world, it is far from being universal.  The Parellis in particular generate much controversy here and there is a large sector of the American horse world that has never been happy with their methods.  This incident has only confirmed what many already felt.

There is also the perception that the majority of Americans have traditionally followed the "Wild West" break-em and beat-em philosophy of horse training.  That too is incorrect.  The great majority of Eastern trainers and handlers have gentled horses for generations using slow, sensible methods that include handling from birth and patient work leading to a calm and easy backing at the age of about 4.  Many, many trainers and handlers in the western and midwestern states do the same and while NH advocates claim that the methods are meant to replace those "cowboy" methods, the truth is those methods weren't being practiced much anymore anyway.

Hope that helps give you a sense of the feeling over here, at least from where I live and ride.
		
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This is really good to hear. Stereotypes heh?


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## Golf Girl (24 July 2010)

snowmanbaby said:



			SO ROBERT WHITAKER   W A S   THERE THEN, ... AND THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE DEMO???

not what Robert Whitaker says himself... but are you his spokesperson??
		
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What? Yes he was there - where does it say otherwise? (credible evidence only please - not 'someone in the H & H forum said that someone said that someone said' etc etc)


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## baymareb (24 July 2010)

GerasHorse said:



			A simple fact is that people who shout the loudest know the least.
		
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I love it when people state things as facts and others are supposed to just agree with it because they stated it.  How is this a fact?  Do you have any evidence to support it?  Or are we just supposed to accept it because you say so?



GerasHorse said:



			Calling Parelli names won't make you any better and won't make your horses any better.
		
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I never thought it would.  Nor is anyone here (or at least the majority) calling him names.  They are however, unhappy with the way her treated Catwalk.  That's not name-calling - it's opinion.



GerasHorse said:



			If you don't understand the principles and the purpose then it does look like Pat is torturing the horse, however the follow-up videos say it all.
		
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Ah, the one-two punch.  The familiar "you just don't understand" followed by "the end justifies the means."  

This implies that you DO understand but I won't hold my breath waiting for you to explain it to all us ingnoramuses who don't.  



GerasHorse said:



*It wasn't a lesson for us* called "this is how you should bridle the horse"
		
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Then why was it done as a demo for the public?  If it was for the horse, I would think it would have been done in a place less stressful for him.



GerasHorse said:



			Pat has the knowledge and the ability to do things we can't and perhaps we don't understand.
		
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Oh, *******s!  as my good British friends here would say.  Who is he - God?  He does things people who have worked with horses all their lives can't understand?  What a bunch of egotistical nonsense!  And you know this how?  Because HE says so?  



GerasHorse said:



			But asking for an appology from Parelli is like asking for an appology from the policeman who arrested your best friend for drunk driving.
		
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## SirenaXVI (24 July 2010)

GerasHorse said:



			A simple fact is that people who shout the loudest know the least. People are so quick to judge and it's perfectly normal and natural behavior. Calling Parelli names won't make you any better and won't make your horses any better. Pat has proved himself a million times - not to us, but to his horses, because it's their opinion that actually matters. If you don't understand the principles and the purpose then it does look like Pat is torturing the horse, however the follow-up videos say it all. Pat and Catwalk are putting on a bridle with confidence and for life! Pat and Catwalk did it together. Pat does things for the horse not TO the horse and it's a big difference. Catwalk will never have a bad bridling day again in his life. Pat did what he had to do for this horse - meaning he was assertive. It wasn't a lesson for us called "this is how you should bridle the horse", Pat has the knowledge and the ability to do things we can't and perhaps we don't understand. But asking for an appology from Parelli is like asking for an appology from the policeman who arrested your best friend for drunk driving.
		
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Gosh, no wonder they call it a cult!


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## mybaileysglide (24 July 2010)

PLEASE!!! CAN SOMEBODY EXPLAIN WHAT PARELLI APOLOGISED FOR EXACTLY???!!! I have asked this question 3 times and nobody will answer. AND, what exactly are the mistakes parelli admitted to making at the FOTH?


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## martlin (24 July 2010)

mybaileysglide said:



			PLEASE!!! CAN SOMEBODY EXPLAIN WHAT PARELLI APOLOGISED FOR EXACTLY???!!! I have asked this question 3 times and nobody will answer.
		
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Because nobody knows, really
As far as I can understand, he apologised for people like you and me not understanding his superior training methods


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## mybaileysglide (24 July 2010)

Perhaps GerasHorse could elaborate. If somebody could kndly explain in depth the exact mistakes made and the reason for the apology it would go a long way towards our trying to understand parelli's thinking as a man.


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## Shysmum (24 July 2010)

regarding Robert Whitaker, a spokesman for him said " Robert just delivered Catwalk and then left Stoneleigh". So it was his party that said this, and it's not taken long to be proved untrue. see further up in this thread, I believe it was posted by a "Gerald...".  Just thought I'd pointthat out - methinks if you haven't read the entire thread  then you'll be missing a lot of the nitty gritty.  sm x


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## pippinpie (24 July 2010)

mybaileysglide said:



			PLEASE!!! CAN SOMEBODY EXPLAIN WHAT PARELLI APOLOGISED FOR EXACTLY???!!! I have asked this question 3 times and nobody will answer. AND, what exactly are the mistakes parelli admitted to making at the FOTH?
		
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mybaileysglide said:



			Perhaps GerasHorse could elaborate. If somebody could kndly explain in depth the exact mistakes made and the reason for the apology it would go a long way towards our trying to understand parelli's thinking as a man.
		
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The only people that could answer that are probably feed up with trying to explain anything to people who have consistently asked questions , got a reasonable answer only for it to be thrown back in our face as being part of some sort of cult and therefore any thing we say is rubbish, well  I for one are feed up with it 
There is a saying: don't put yourself out for someone going in the opposite direction'
IF YOU WANT TO KNOW THE ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION, WHY DON'T YOU GO LOOK AT THE B*****Y YOU TUBE CLIP YOURSELF AND STOP SHOUTING AT US!


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## pippinpie (24 July 2010)

shysmum said:



			regarding Robert Whitaker, a spokesman for him said " Robert just delivered Catwalk and then left Stoneleigh". So it was his party that said this, and it's not taken long to be proved untrue. see further up in this thread, I believe it was posted by a "Gerald...".  Just thought I'd pointthat out - methinks if you haven't read the entire thread  then you'll be missing a lot of the nitty gritty.  sm x
		
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That post has been proven to have been a hoax, no-one from the Whitaker camp said that, and it is untrue.


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## Shysmum (24 July 2010)

Oh, I'm so sorry, my mistake   sm x


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## mybaileysglide (24 July 2010)

pippinpie said:



			The only people that could answer that are probably feed up with trying to explain anything to people who have consistently asked questions , got a reasonable answer only for it to be thrown back in our face as being part of some sort of cult and therefore any thing we say is rubbish, well  I for one are feed up with it 
There is a saying: don't put yourself out for someone going in the opposite direction'
IF YOU WANT TO KNOW THE ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION, WHY DON'T YOU GO LOOK AT THE B*****Y YOU TUBE CLIP YOURSELF AND STOP SHOUTING AT US!

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 Excuse me but I promise you I'm not shouting. The you tube does not give a detailed explanation. I was actually hoping someone with parelli experience could give a detailed explanation. Not exactly asking a lot here, more a better understanding which nobody seems to either want, or can provide.


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## teddyt (24 July 2010)

GerasHorse said:



			A simple fact is that people who shout the loudest know the least.
		
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PP 'shouts' pretty loudly. Parellitube, youtube, websites, uk headquarters, saddles, equipment, instructors, training system, dvds....... Hardly a shrinking violet is he? 



GerasHorse said:



			Pat has proved himself a million times - not to us, but to his horses, because it's their opinion that actually matters.
		
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He has proved that he hasnt got the patience he preaches and that he puts his ego above all else, yes.




GerasHorse said:



			If you don't understand the principles and the purpose then it does look like Pat is torturing the horse, however the follow-up videos say it all. Pat and Catwalk are putting on a bridle with confidence and for life! Pat and Catwalk did it together. Pat does things for the horse not TO the horse and it's a big difference. Catwalk will never have a bad bridling day again in his life. Pat did what he had to do for this horse - meaning he was assertive. It wasn't a lesson for us called "this is how you should bridle the horse", Pat has the knowledge and the ability to do things we can't and perhaps we don't understand.
		
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That old chesnut. There was me thinking that a demonstration is to teach people. But then i just dont understand. I dont think i ever will tbh- if gum lines and wrapping ropes around the legs is supposed to be for the horse. If Pat really does have the ability to do things us lesser mortals cant then why does he put himself out there as a teacher? Cant be very good can he- if people dont understand his methods. How can his training programme be that brilliant if so many people dont understand it. And rather than just blaming it on peoples stupidity why doesnt he try to make people understand, if the methods are that great?

A bad workman blames his tools. Is it that people dont understand or is it that PP is wrong and just wont admit it?


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## pippinpie (24 July 2010)

mybaileysglide said:



			Excuse me but I promise you I'm not shouting. The you tube does not give a detailed explanation. I was actually hoping someone with parelli experience could give a detailed explanation. Not exactly asking a lot here, more a better understanding which nobody seems to either want, or can provide.

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 Writing in CAPITALS is considered shouting 
If you genuinely wish a respectful answer, you could try asking Tongue~n~cheek on her thread about Parelli questions. I'm all done being reasonable.


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## mybaileysglide (24 July 2010)

pippinpie said:



			Writing in CAPITALS is considered shouting 
If you genuinely wish a respectful answer, you could try asking Tongue~n~cheek on her thread about Parelli questions. I'm all done being reasonable.

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Thankyou for informing me.


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## jahseh (24 July 2010)

teddyt said:



			PP 'shouts' pretty loudly. Parellitube, youtube, websites, uk headquarters, saddles, equipment, instructors, training system, dvds....... Hardly a shrinking violet is he? 



He has proved that he hasnt got the patience he preaches and that he puts his ego above all else, yes.




That old chesnut. There was me thinking that a demonstration is to teach people. But then i just dont understand. I dont think i ever will tbh- if gum lines and wrapping ropes around the legs is supposed to be for the horse. If Pat really does have the ability to do things us lesser mortals cant then why does he put himself out there as a teacher? Cant be very good can he- if people dont understand his methods. How can his training programme be that brilliant if so many people dont understand it. And rather than just blaming it on peoples stupidity why doesnt he try to make people understand, if the methods are that great?

A bad workman blames his tools. Is it that people dont understand or is it that PP is wrong and just wont admit it?
		
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Back to language again, demonstration has more than one meaning and in the context of this or their other public demonstrations I don't think Parelli  intend them as teaching events (as in go home and do this now you know its a miracle) nor are they specifically advertised as such as far as I know although you are invited to learn more about parelli in general. I think they are more demonstrations in the sense of public display of say like the red arrows (you wouldn't expect to fly a jet and do acrobatics after watching that would you? lol) 
He makes lots of effort to get people to understand you have listed some of the ways at the top of your post, or did that somehow bypass you?
Understanding anything takes time and effort on the part of the student and knowledge usually isn't acquired in a blinding flash of revelation. After all you wouldn't expect to understand partical physics just because you knew 2 +2=4and 4x2=8 although if you didn't know the later I imagine understanding the physics might be difficult? If you don't study something you will never understand it and levels of understanding increase the more you study knowledge is not as far as I know finite. (unless of course you are god?)


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## pippinpie (24 July 2010)

I'm swimming against the tide here again and this maybe my last attempt to say why I don't believe that Catwalk was abuse in any way.
After a lifetime of horses both professional and private blah blah blah..... I considered myself pretty much a knowledgeable and caring horse owner, I didn't really think that I wanted/needed/could learn anything more after going through BHS qualifications and a very successful competition life for 40 years or more, that would enhance me or my horses lives, we were happy, all of us!

Then I heard/saw Parelli it blew my mind, not in a hour or a day or even a week, but months of reading, watching, understanding, realization that getting into the horses mind was more powerful than I could ever have imagined, horse psychology was something that had only been skimmed over in the past, but this was a new 'science' to me and I wanted to know more.

Many have commented on what Pat did to Catwalk and some people have said 'you don't understand' that was said in the same way as: If I saw a demo on acupuncture, I might come out and say that looks horrible, sticking needle in people and i can't see why they do it, then people would say that I didn't understand the theory or method, I would have to either take the time to learn about acupuncture and not go around saying what a load of rubbish they are just out to make money/con people, and abuse/dupe people.
So when people say that you don't understand stop taking as an insult, what they are saying is you don't understand Parelli, if you did you will have understood that Catwalk did not have just a bridling issue, it was much deeper than that, it was a fear/relinquishing leadership/trust issue, yes Catwalk was fearful of having his bridle on (because of a previous experience no doubt) but that was not his biggest problem that was just a symptom of it. Without addressing the underlying issues the bridling could not be dealt with. Catwalk lives in our world and for his own benefit he needs to be able to do these three things, trust, relinquish leadership and feel safe.

You also have to understand the tools that PP used and how they were used.Gum lines and twitches in expert hands are proven to aid pacifying a horse, (not going into the science on that now) leg restraints again not everyone is familiar with this method, looks horrendous to the onlooker who doesn't understand it uses in helping a horse understand that in relinquishing leadership is not a bad thing but the right thing.

Catwalk was not abuse at that demo, he was helped in a way that not everyone could understand.
Pat Parelli has made an apology not for what he did for catwalk but for any misunderstanding that arose from him not being able to fully explain his actions at the time and for any upset that the demo had caused anyone that saw it.
I really don't think he needs to apologise for any thing else.
There that my penny's worth


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## Siesz52 (24 July 2010)

pippinpie said:



			Catwalk was not abused at that demo, he was helped in a way that not everyone could understand.
		
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Yeah sure. Sounds just like that U.S. military commander in Vietnam who justified the smoking ruins he left behind by saying: "To save the village, we had to destroy it." (This is from Chris Irwin's second book: _Dancing with your Dark Horse"_ that I have translated into Dutch.)


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## mybaileysglide (24 July 2010)

pippinpie said:



			I'm swimming against the tide here again and this maybe my last attempt to say why I don't believe that Catwalk was abuse in any way.
After a lifetime of horses both professional and private blah blah blah..... I considered myself pretty much a knowledgeable and caring horse owner, I didn't really think that I wanted/needed/could learn anything more after going through BHS qualifications and a very successful competition life for 40 years or more, that would enhance me or my horses lives, we were happy, all of us!

Then I heard/saw Parelli it blew my mind, not in a hour or a day or even a week, but months of reading, watching, understanding, realization that getting into the horses mind was more powerful than I could ever have imagined, horse psychology was something that had only been skimmed over in the past, but this was a new 'science' to me and I wanted to know more.

Many have commented on what Pat did to Catwalk and some people have said 'you don't understand' that was said in the same way as: If I saw a demo on acupuncture, I might come out and say that looks horrible, sticking needle in people and i can't see why they do it, then people would say that I didn't understand the theory or method, I would have to either take the time to learn about acupuncture and not go around saying what a load of rubbish they are just out to make money/con people, and abuse/dupe people.
So when people say that you don't understand stop taking as an insult, what they are saying is you don't understand Parelli, if you did you will have understood that Catwalk did not have just a bridling issue, it was much deeper than that, it was a fear/relinquishing leadership/trust issue, yes Catwalk was fearful of having his bridle on (because of a previous experience no doubt) but that was not his biggest problem that was just a symptom of it. Without addressing the underlying issues the bridling could not be dealt with. Catwalk lives in our world and for his own benefit he needs to be able to do these three things, trust, relinquish leadership and feel safe.

You also have to understand the tools that PP used and how they were used.Gum lines and twitches in expert hands are proven to aid pacifying a horse, (not going into the science on that now) leg restraints again not everyone is familiar with this method, looks horrendous to the onlooker who doesn't understand it uses in helping a horse understand that in relinquishing leadership is not a bad thing but the right thing.

Catwalk was not abuse at that demo, he was helped in a way that not everyone could understand.
Pat Parelli has made an apology not for what he did for catwalk but for any misunderstanding that arose from him not being able to fully explain his actions at the time and for any upset that the demo had caused anyone that saw it.
I really don't think he needs to apologise for any thing else.
There that my penny's worth 

Click to expand...

Think maybe a public demo was not quite the place to be using such methods and perhaps mr parelli should have not over-estimated the general viewing public's readiness to accept his chosen methods considering the general view and understanding of parelli horsemanship ideology.


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## pippinpie (24 July 2010)

mybaileysglide said:



			PLEASE!!! CAN SOMEBODY EXPLAIN WHAT PARELLI APOLOGISED FOR EXACTLY???!!! I have asked this question 3 times and nobody will answer. AND, what exactly are the mistakes parelli admitted to making at the FOTH?
		
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pippinpie said:



			The only people that could answer that are probably feed up with trying to explain anything to people who have consistently asked questions , got a reasonable answer only for it to be thrown back in our face as being part of some sort of cult and therefore any thing we say is rubbish, well  I for one are feed up with it 
There is a saying: don't put yourself out for someone going in the opposite direction'
IF YOU WANT TO KNOW THE ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION, WHY DON'T YOU GO LOOK AT THE B*****Y YOU TUBE CLIP YOURSELF AND STOP SHOUTING AT US!

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I have apologised to 'mybaileysglide' for being rude in my post, I'm affraid I let this thread get to me and took my frustration out on her.


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## george west (24 July 2010)

GerasHorse said:



			A simple fact is that people who shout the loudest know the least. People are so quick to judge and it's perfectly normal and natural behavior. Calling Parelli names won't make you any better and won't make your horses any better. Pat has proved himself a million times - not to us, but to his horses, because it's their opinion that actually matters. If you don't understand the principles and the purpose then it does look like Pat is torturing the horse, however the follow-up videos say it all. Pat and Catwalk are putting on a bridle with confidence and for life! Pat and Catwalk did it together. Pat does things for the horse not TO the horse and it's a big difference. Catwalk will never have a bad bridling day again in his life. Pat did what he had to do for this horse - meaning he was assertive. It wasn't a lesson for us called "this is how you should bridle the horse", Pat has the knowledge and the ability to do things we can't and perhaps we don't understand. But asking for an appology from Parelli is like asking for an appology from the policeman who arrested your best friend for drunk driving.
		
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   Finally some body has woken up!!! Well done I purely agree with your statememt!!!!!


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## Unbeliever (24 July 2010)

baymareb said:



			I love it when people state things as facts and others are supposed to just agree with it because they stated it.
		
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Glad you like it 'cause this is what this whole thread is predicated on


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## teddyt (24 July 2010)

jahseh said:



			I think they are more demonstrations in the sense of public display of say like the red arrows (you wouldn't expect to fly a jet and do acrobatics after watching that would you? lol)
		
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So why display something that people wont understand? Not my words- parellis. apparently nobody understands what was demonstrated. A failing on the part of PP surely?




jahseh said:



			He makes lots of effort to get people to understand you have listed some of the ways at the top of your post, or did that somehow bypass you?
		
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You obviously didnt read my whole post. No, it didnt bypass me. But if he makes so many efforts to get people to understand how come they still dont?  Communication is 2 way, not one way. And if the other party doesnt understand then you need to change how you communicate- not blame the other party on being stupid!



jahseh said:



			Understanding anything takes time and effort on the part of the student and knowledge usually isn't acquired in a blinding flash of revelation. After all you wouldn't expect to understand partical physics just because you knew 2 +2=4and 4x2=8 although if you didn't know the later I imagine understanding the physics might be difficult? If you don't study something you will never understand it and levels of understanding increase the more you study knowledge is not as far as I know finite. (unless of course you are god?)
		
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So why demonstrate such advanced techniques if your students are likely not to have the acquired knowledge beforehand. Again, PPs fault- not as he suggests the fault of the audience fo not realising that they needed to study him for years before they would understand. And anyway, thats a load of c**p because i have spoken to a couple of people that have been doing parelli for 5+ years each and they didnt understand it- in fact they were disgusted too!

Sorry but PP is at fault- not the audience and others. PP made a mistake and isnt man enough to admit it. instead the viewers get the blame for being stupid, not experienced, unfamiliar with things...... blah blah blah. As i said, a bad workman blames his tools


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## baymareb (24 July 2010)

Unbeliever said:



			Glad you like it 'cause this is what this whole thread is predicated on 

Click to expand...

No, this thread is predicated on _*opinion.*_  A description and video of a certain event was provided.  What ensued was a discussion of people's *opinions* of whether or not what happened was abuse, of whether or not the demonstration went against the stated philosophy of Parelli's methods, of whether or not the poster approved of those methods.

None of that constitutes stating something as fact.  

Granted, people have speculated and tried to discover certain facts.  Whether Robert Whitaker was present throughout the entire demo.  Whether a vet found lesions on Catwalk's mouth.  How many vets examined him.

Mostly though, this is a thread of opinion.  There is nothing wrong with that.  We are all entitled to one.


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## Bramley (24 July 2010)

Can i just say that when we confronted Pat Parelli after the awfull treatment of the stallion Catwalk all he did was say " i'm sorry". "What can i do to make it right with you." He said he was sorry a dozen times. he said he loved horses and even showed us the lesion on the horses top lip and gum. He just didn't seem right. I have seen him many times and was a Parelli supporter but this just sickened me. They gave us our money back and a free video of "happier times" sadly i am still to sick to watch it.


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## jahseh (24 July 2010)

teddyt said:



			So why display something that people wont understand? Not my words- parellis. apparently nobody understands what was demonstrated. A failing on the part of PP surely?




You obviously didnt read my whole post. No, it didnt bypass me. But if he makes so many efforts to get people to understand how come they still dont?  Communication is 2 way, not one way. And if the other party doesnt understand then you need to change how you communicate- not blame the other party on being stupid!



So why demonstrate such advanced techniques if your students are likely not to have the acquired knowledge beforehand. Again, PPs fault- not as he suggests the fault of the audience fo not realising that they needed to study him for years before they would understand. And anyway, thats a load of c**p because i have spoken to a couple of people that have been doing parelli for 5+ years each and they didnt understand it- in fact they were disgusted too!

Sorry but PP is at fault- not the audience and others. PP made a mistake and isnt man enough to admit it. instead the viewers get the blame for being stupid, not experienced, unfamiliar with things...... blah blah blah. As i said, a bad workman blames his tools
		
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PP as you title him has not blamed his tools, if you followed the thread of his reasoning. I doubt that he expected the depth of the problems he would face with Catwalk as I don't think he would have chosen him as a demo horse for the very reason that people would be likely to misunderstand the techniques he was using if he did. But again in tune with his beliefs and practices he continued what he had started for the horse, when it has done his reputation no favours. 
He actually has said it was a mistake to show them in a way because he apologised for the upset the lack of understanding (or whatever you want to call it) led to.
As for people who have been "doing" parelli for 5+ years understanding or not, being disgusted or not would depend on the people and exactly what they had been "doing" don't you think? Is that 5 years of study on a regular basis, a lesson once a month, a lesson once a week, once a year? Intensive study of the theory behind the practice or playing with their own horses without that depth of problems or what?
As for communication being a 2 way thing that is very true, but if information is offered and the other party either isn't interested or simply doesn't want to put in the effort then their isn't much you can do about it now is there? In your original list there was more than one way the parellis attempt to communicate other than ramming it down your throat what else would you expect them to do? I also haven't heard anyone from the Parelli organization call anyone stupid for not understanding where exactly has that happened?


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## Chestnuttymare (24 July 2010)

Bramley said:



			Can i just say that when we confronted Pat Parelli after the awfull treatment of the stallion Catwalk all he did was say " i'm sorry". "What can i do to make it right with you." He said he was sorry a dozen times. he said he loved horses and even showed us the lesion on the horses top lip and gum. He just didn't seem right. I have seen him many times and was a Parelli supporter but this just sickened me. They gave us our money back and a free video of "happier times" sadly i am still to sick to watch it.

Click to expand...

what do you mean when you say 'he didn't seem right'? Was he upset about the lesion on Catwalks gum?  If he kept saying he was sorry, do you think he was a bit upset about what happened at the demo?


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## mybaileysglide (24 July 2010)

Bramley said:



			Can i just say that when we confronted Pat Parelli after the awfull treatment of the stallion Catwalk all he did was say " i'm sorry". "What can i do to make it right with you." He said he was sorry a dozen times. he said he loved horses and even showed us the lesion on the horses top lip and gum. He just didn't seem right. I have seen him many times and was a Parelli supporter but this just sickened me. They gave us our money back and a free video of "happier times" sadly i am still to sick to watch it.

Click to expand...

This does suggest that whilst parelli might advocate methods used, perhaps he acted on impulse within the situation and is regretful of his decision.


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## Elsbells (24 July 2010)

Bramley said:



			Can i just say that when we confronted Pat Parelli after the awfull treatment of the stallion Catwalk all he did was say " i'm sorry". "What can i do to make it right with you." He said he was sorry a dozen times. he said he loved horses and even showed us the lesion on the horses top lip and gum. He just didn't seem right. I have seen him many times and was a Parelli supporter but this just sickened me. They gave us our money back and a free video of "happier times" sadly i am still to sick to watch it.

Click to expand...

Hi Bramley,
It was me that walked away from him and Robert that night in discust after the show. It was me that returned a little later to tell him that he would live to regret his actions and warn him of a youtube download which did seem to hit the spot. I agree with you in regard to his mood. Even though I havn't met him before, he didn't seem right to me as he had this damm great stupid grin on his face all the time, but then again, I doubt the great man has ever had to face such wrath from his devoted followers as he did that night??

I to have the DVD unwrapped and still sitting on the table.


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## fburton (24 July 2010)

pippinpie said:



			You also have to understand the tools that PP used and how they were used.Gum lines and twitches in expert hands are proven to aid pacifying a horse, (not going into the science on that now) leg restraints again not everyone is familiar with this method, looks horrendous to the onlooker who doesn't understand it uses in helping a horse understand that in relinquishing leadership is not a bad thing but the right thing.
		
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So what is the science behind the use of leg restraints? Is it known, or made up?

Talking about Catwalk's problem with bridling in terms of "leadership" sounds really odd to me. He seemed perfectly okay with everything else that was done with him - really quite well mannered in fact. In that sense, he was already accepting the "leadership" of humans. It was just that he hated having a bridle put on and being handled in certain ways round his head. Making that into a problem of his having leadership he didn't want to relinquish is, to my mind, like calling a spade a fish. If that is truly what Parelli believed, maybe it is what led him into the silly stuff with leg restraints when simple but patiently delivered sessions of desensitization (similar to that shown in the Michael Peace video) would have worked just fine and upset the horse (and audience) less.


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## Elsbells (24 July 2010)

And, to add. He knew exactly what he was doing and even came equiped with the gum twitch in his pocket. The man wanted to give a good show like they do in the westerns! 

There must of bee 100 or more non Parellians at that demo, he knew it becausethey asked for hands to be raised. Turn them into parellians, get them to buy the package and the membership???.....................
You do the sums!!!!

I'm sill as mad as a snake!!!


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## mybaileysglide (24 July 2010)

elsbells said:



			And, to add. He knew exactly what he was doing and even came equiped with the gum twitch in his pocket. The man wanted to give a good show like they do in the westerns! 

There must of bee 100 or more non Parellians at that demo, he knew it becausethey asked for hands to be raised. Turn them into parellians, get them to buy the package and the membership???.....................
You do the sums!!!!

I'm sill as mad as a snake!!!

Click to expand...

And quite rightly so. Not exactly what it says on the can heh?


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## teddyt (24 July 2010)

jahseh said:



			As for people who have been "doing" parelli for 5+ years understanding or not, being disgusted or not would depend on the people and exactly what they had been "doing" don't you think? *Is that 5 years of study on a regular basis,* a lesson once a month, a lesson once a week, once a year? Intensive study of the theory behind the practice or playing with their own horses without that depth of problems or what?
		
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Yes. And one of them teaches the methods!





			As for communication being a 2 way thing that is very true, but if information is offered and the other party either isn't interested or simply doesn't want to put in the effort then their isn't much you can do about it now is there?
		
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Why were the people at the demo if they werent interested?





			In your original list there was more than one way the parellis attempt to communicate other than ramming it down your throat what else would you expect them to do?
		
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Whatever way they choose to communicate it cant be working if parelli and non-parelli people both dont understand what they saw. Thats PPs words- he said 'what people thought they saw' amongst other things insinuating people misunderstood his methods. So its their failing. Either that or the methods are what people think- wrong. But PP wont accept he is the one with the flaws. No, everyone else has the problem. He demonstrates brilliantly and his methods are perfect


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## Shysmum (24 July 2010)

elsbells - has anyone come to you for a statement yet ? PM me if you like. sm x


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## Golf Girl (24 July 2010)

shysmum said:



			elsbells - has anyone come to you for a statement yet ? PM me if you like. sm x
		
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With respect, this is obviously a VERY public debate, and to start suggesting that 'good chums' are now taking it behind closed doors is highly inappropriate .....


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## Shysmum (24 July 2010)

bloody nora   - who are you to talk to anyone like that ???  Another on ignore *sigh*

sorry elsbells, shouldn't have asked  my mistake.


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## Unbeliever (24 July 2010)

baymareb said:



			No, this thread is predicated on _*opinion.*_  A description and video of a certain event was provided.  What ensued was a discussion of people's *opinions* of whether or not what happened was abuse, of whether or not the demonstration went against the stated philosophy of Parelli's methods, of whether or not the poster approved of those methods.

None of that constitutes stating something as fact.  

Granted, people have speculated and tried to discover certain facts.  Whether Robert Whitaker was present throughout the entire demo.  Whether a vet found lesions on Catwalk's mouth.  How many vets examined him.

Mostly though, this is a thread of opinion.  There is nothing wrong with that.  We are all entitled to one.
		
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Hmm. All I've seen is a pretty ropey video which does not seem to show what it was purported to.

The comments re the Vet's report have been pretty thouroughly discounted as have references to BHS officials.

I tend to base my opinions on facts, not predjudices. How about you?


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## Elsbells (24 July 2010)

shysmum said:



			elsbells - has anyone come to you for a statement yet ? PM me if you like. sm x
		
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No shysmum they havn't and i don't mind you asking at all.  I have offered it if needed. It appears though that my initial post has been used on more than one occation of which I am suprised and pleased. To be quite honest though, that is my statement.


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## Shysmum (24 July 2010)

yup, you should be charging journalism fees !


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## jahseh (24 July 2010)

teddyt said:



			Yes. And one of them teaches the methods!




Why were the people at the demo if they werent interested?




Whatever way they choose to communicate it cant be working if parelli and non-parelli people both dont understand what they saw. Thats PPs words- he said 'what people thought they saw' amongst other things insinuating people misunderstood his methods. So its their failing. Either that or the methods are what people think- wrong. But PP wont accept he is the one with the flaws. No, everyone else has the problem. He demonstrates brilliantly and his methods are perfect 

Click to expand...

Yes what! it can't be all of them they are all different, teaches at what level and with what rating? Most of the people commenting have said they were not there and understanding takes more than attending one demo duh! 

You are not talking about a single thing but a whole system of thought and way of working with horses you could no more learn that from one demo than you could learn to train and perform a grand prix dressage test on a novice horse from one demo on how to ride a test at that level, or even to ride a grand prix test on a made horse unless you already had sufficient knowledge to ride and perform the movements.

 It has been pointed out else where on this thread that there are books or papers documenting the theory behind the use of the methods  that most people have objected to (non parelli books) and the titles etc  were given can't remember where or what they were but it is there. 
As to what people saw no two accounts are the same people have "seen" 
horses with their legs tied up, hobbles, twitches, or people who are expert at what they do using tools they are expert with, sessions lasting anywhere from 1 to 3 hours, a horse with multiple wounds terrified and suffering severe trauma, or a horse that didn't even break a sweat, people who were there the whole time (or not), a horse with its spirit irretrievably broken who will never trust a human again, or a horse well on the way to having a severe problem solved. Or any number of things in between!


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## baymareb (25 July 2010)

Unbeliever said:



			Hmm. All I've seen is a pretty ropey video which does not seem to show what it was purported to.

The comments re the Vet's report have been pretty thouroughly discounted as have references to BHS officials.

I tend to base my opinions on facts, not predjudices. How about you?
		
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I try to base my opinions the same way.  Because of that, I have been reluctant to describe what happened with Catwalk (or the blind horse in the LP video) as abuse.  From what I have seen of both incidents, I cannot categorically say that's what it was.

However, based on eyewitness testimony - from both supporters and non-supporters - I do feel comfortable with my opinion that the methods used do not seem to fit Parelli's own description of his methods as "love, language and leadership."  Nor do they seem to fit his own statements regarding restraint and mechanical means.

I just don't care for the guy's methods or his way of doing business.  I'm not sure why that's so offensive to you.


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## Lsrd1 (25 July 2010)

shysmum said:



			I dunno, just when they hoped it "might" be dying down over here, eh .

I'm really interested to know what the general vibe is in the US about all this ?  Has it kicked up as much of a stink as over here ? Have there been issues with Parelli before over there ? What's the general view of it all on the forums over there ?  And if anyone is in Australia...same questions !

Sorry, just curious. sm x
		
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Haven't read the in-between posts yet, but I'm American and I can tell you that this Catwalk nonsense has not caused quite the furor in America that it had in Great Britain.  Yes, there were threads on other horse forums, with all the same sentiments but they were much shorter. 

The reason is that the majority of horsemen/women in the US have known for a long time that Pat Parelli is full of baloney, so this isn't really anything surprising.  Mostly, many were simply quite gleeful that he yet again showed his true colors and hopefully won't make too much of a foothold financially in your country as a result.


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## snowmanbaby (25 July 2010)

Lsrd1 said:



			Haven't read the in-between posts yet, but I'm American and I can tell you that this Catwalk nonsense has not caused quite the furor in America that it had in Great Britain.  Yes, there were threads on other horse forums, with all the same sentiments but they were much shorter. 

The reason is that the majority of horsemen/women in the US have known for a long time that Pat Parelli is full of baloney, so this isn't really anything surprising.  Mostly, many were simply quite gleeful that he yet again showed his true colors and hopefully won't make too much of a foothold financially in your country as a result.
		
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Just to cheer everyone up on a wet July Sunday morning, if you could do with a really, really good giggle, go to this site 
http://thesecondsight.blogspot.com/2007/02/worshipping-at-temple-of-mammon.html  -  look up  "levitating horses" ...  took me a while to work out what the site was all about,  but I have had such a long loud laugh!  It is on topic....


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## alliersv1 (25 July 2010)

snowmanbaby said:



			Just to cheer everyone up on a wet July Sunday morning, if you could do with a really, really good giggle, go to this site 
http://thesecondsight.blogspot.com/2007/02/worshipping-at-temple-of-mammon.html  -  look up  "levitating horses" ...  took me a while to work out what the site was all about,  but I have had such a long loud laugh!  It is on topic....
		
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That is brilliant!
I LOVE the levitating horses!!!


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## snowmanbaby (25 July 2010)

alliersv1 said:



			That is brilliant!
I LOVE the levitating horses!!!
		
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quite amazing about the incredibgly expensive paving stones though, isn't it??


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## manes&tails (26 July 2010)

this is a quote from a website i found which makes some very good points. I'm neutral about this, don't want to take any sides as i do not know all the facts.




			Pat Parelli, Catwalk, Blah Blah Blah 
Pat parelli
Pat Parelli is getting a lot of flak at present for a video of him working a horse at the Festival of the Horse. If you want the details, just google parelli and catwalk and it will be all over your computer like a rash. You will also see old videos of Pat and Linda Parelli working with horses in a way that "enlightened" horse owners won't like.

The Festival of the Horse video possibly shows PP going on for longer than he should have. Now I would have used a completely different approach, mostly involving treats, becuase that is the way I work. I doubt I would have been any more successful. But nothing PP was doing was cruel. Going on too long has to be the commonest mistake in horsemanship, the "one more go and he'll get it right" syndrome. Been there, done that.

The old videos of Pat loading horses and Linda with a horse on a long line are old videos. I have done things I regret. I suspect most people reading this have done things they regret. I hope I have improved as a horseman, but I have hit ponies with sticks and whips, I have banged them in the mouth with bits. I have been rough and agressive. I can't undo that. Some things are on video, they are all in my memory.

I can't delete them, I can't not have done them, but I am the horseman I am today because of my past mistakes. I hope I have learned, but the learning process is not helped by vicious attacks from the sidelines.

What is it about "natural horsemanship" people that they are so keen to attack those on their own side, but stay fairly quiet about the compulsory whips, compulsory bits, promotion of inbreeding, enthusiasm for shoes and disdain for safety that characterises traditional horsemanship.

I know a lot of Parelli enthusiasts, and I know they are completely wrong to pay money to Pat Parelli when they could pay that money to me. Yes Pat Parelli is a good businessman and makes money. Gosh, and nobody who does traditional horsemanship makes money, or is rich, or successful, or arrogant, or opinionated.

I don't use Pat Parelli's methods. Pat Parelli doesn't use my methods. I think mine are better, and I suspect he feels the same about his, but he has fought long and hard against the bedrock of tradition which I respect. I respect the Parelli enthusiats I know (and I still think they could give the money to me).

I watched a Parelli trained guy working with a string of young polo ponies, all on rope halters, all on loose reins, all fit and alert, and a joy to behold. I respect that and all the other examples of good horsemanship from PP's teaching.  PP may have gone on too long at the Festival of the Horse, but then again it may have been necessary. His style isn't my style, but that doesn't make him a bad man. He's richer and more successful than I am, than most horsemen, and that doesn't make him a bad man. He may, repeat may, have made a mistake.

Most of us have. 




			and here's the link: http://saddlechariot.blogspot.com/2010/07/pat-parelli-catwalk-blah-blah-blah.html

just want to know what people think of this??
		
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## Jerriman (26 July 2010)

Don't want to get into the pros and cons of Parelli and his methods.  However, what does interest me is that Catwalk gets in excess of 2,600 threads and yet the stunt involving the Russian donkey warrants barely 50 comments.  Is it Parelli or real horse/donkey welfare that is causing so much comment?


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## jahseh (26 July 2010)

Jerriman said:



			Don't want to get into the pros and cons of Parelli and his methods.  However, what does interest me is that Catwalk gets in excess of 2,600 threads and yet the stunt involving the Russian donkey warrants barely 50 comments.  Is it Parelli or real horse/donkey welfare that is causing so much comment?
		
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on this evidence parelli lol


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## martlin (26 July 2010)

Jerriman said:



			Don't want to get into the pros and cons of Parelli and his methods.  However, what does interest me is that Catwalk gets in excess of 2,600 threads and yet the stunt involving the Russian donkey warrants barely 50 comments.  Is it Parelli or real horse/donkey welfare that is causing so much comment?
		
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I would say neither, IMO welfare considerations in this case are incidental - lack of professionalism and hypocrisy is the overriding issue.
As to the Russian donkey - the case is fairly simple, isn't it? Straight cut cruelty incident that needs prosecuting.


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## baymareb (26 July 2010)

manes&tails said:



			just want to know what people think of this??
		
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I think for the most part it misses the point.  The point is that what people saw at the Festival of the Horse was not what the Parellis advertise - methods that use trust and understanding rather than restraints and mechanical devices.

The issue is not whether or not people cut down NH per se while not saying anything about whips, etc. (which is a strawman argument because the majority of responsible horse people I know are just as adamant against the MIS-use of such things as they are against the misrepresentations put forth by PP).  Nor is it whether Parelli-trained horses are well behaved (the old end-justifies-the-means argument).

The issue is whether there is hypocrisy in using methods you've previously decried.  

As soon as people steer their argument away from the specific instance and into the realm of "well, traditionalists do this..." or "I know Parelli-trained horses that do that..." they've lost the argument, in my opinion.  It just becomes deflection rather than debate.


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## Siesz52 (28 July 2010)

jahseh said:



			on this evidence parelli lol
		
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Could anybody explain to me - I'm Dutch - what "lol" means?


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## Cavblacks (28 July 2010)

lol = lots of laughs usually


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## Nocturnal (28 July 2010)

Oh, I thought it was 'laugh out loud'... now I feel like a nitwit!


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## jahseh (28 July 2010)

nutkin said:



			Oh, I thought it was 'laugh out loud'... now I feel like a nitwit! 

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well i meant laugh out loud lol


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## Curls (29 July 2010)

Wow, what a lot of anger and criticism of Natural Horsemanship, as well as of the Parellis.  I haven't been able to see the video yet, but judging by this thread it must have been terrible, so I'd be really interested in the answers to these questions:-

Have the Show Organisers issued a statement distancing themselves from this happening?  Since there is video evidence and hundreds of of eye witnesses, are the RSPCA or other welfare organisations prosecuting?  Has Mr. Whitaker, or the stallion's owners, issued a statement condemning what supposedly happened to their horse?  Did the Head Groom actually resign, as someone earlier intimated that she had threatened to do?  What is this "gum line" that was supposedly used on the horse?  Is it illegal to twitch a horse? Is it illegal to hobble a horse?  Perhaps some ofyou who are so anti Natural Horsemanship due to this event would be kind enough to explain all this to me.


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## Tinypony (29 July 2010)

I can't believe you joined just to start this up again.  FFS.


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## NOISYGIRL (29 July 2010)

Hmmm I'm bored of all this now, OBVIOUSLY nothing is going to be done about it

The show must go on !  The circus act that it is


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## Caledonia (29 July 2010)

Curls - read the thread and look at the videos contained in it. I think you'll find most of your questions answered therein. 
Just as an aside though - there's nothing NATURAL about using gum-lines, twitches or hobbles on a horse, it is force, pure and simple.


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## fburton (29 July 2010)

<winner>Calm down dear, it's only a Parelli thread.</winner>


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## Amymay (29 July 2010)

Curls said:



			Have the Show Organisers issued a statement distancing themselves from this happening? No, merely passed concerns and complaints directly on the Parelli Since there is video evidence and hundreds of of eye witnesses, are the RSPCA or other welfare organisations prosecuting?It would appear that the BHS are yes  Has Mr. Whitaker, or the stallion's owners, issued a statement condemning what supposedly happened to their horse? No, the opposite What is this "gum line" that was supposedly used on the horse? just that, a line that is passed over a horses gums which is supposed to act as some sort of calmer, done correctly Is it illegal to twitch a horse? noIs it illegal to hobble a horse?  noPerhaps some of you who are so anti Natural Horsemanship due to this event would be kind enough to explain all this to me.
		
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The majority of posters on here do not object to natural horsemanship at all.  What _is_ objected to is hypocracy........


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## Shysmum (29 July 2010)




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## teddyt (29 July 2010)

Curls said:



			Wow, what a lot of anger and criticism of Natural Horsemanship, as well as of the Parellis.  I haven't been able to see the video yet, but judging by this thread it must have been terrible, so I'd be really interested in the answers to these questions:-

Have the Show Organisers issued a statement distancing themselves from this happening?  Since there is video evidence and hundreds of of eye witnesses, are the RSPCA or other welfare organisations prosecuting?  Has Mr. Whitaker, or the stallion's owners, issued a statement condemning what supposedly happened to their horse?  Did the Head Groom actually resign, as someone earlier intimated that she had threatened to do?  What is this "gum line" that was supposedly used on the horse?  Is it illegal to twitch a horse? Is it illegal to hobble a horse?  Perhaps some ofyou who are so anti Natural Horsemanship due to this event would be kind enough to explain all this to me.
		
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Missing the point by a country mile


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## Tinypony (29 July 2010)

"EAR SHY? By Pat Parelli
Can you touch your husband's ears? What about your best friend's, your child's or your mother's?
If you couldn't then there's probably something wrong with the relationship! This is how I want you to think of your horse's so-called 'problem'. If he doesn't like his ears to be touched its because deep down inside, he does not trust you. There is a flaw in your relationship.
When I talk about the solution here I am going to give you the natural approach, the one that consider's the horse's point of view. To effect a 'cure' you have to gain his trust and permission. The normal way is often to force the horse to accept it, twitch him, tie him, throw him. In my mind (and in the horse's I'm sure) this is akin to rape and I won't use it.
So to do it with the horse's permission may seem to take a little time, technique and knowledge, but if you do it right you won't have to do it over. . ."


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## ChristmasAngel (29 July 2010)

Curls said:



			Wow, what a lot of anger and criticism of Natural Horsemanship, as well as of the Parellis.  I haven't been able to see the video yet, but judging by this thread it must have been terrible, so I'd be really interested in the answers to these questions:-

Have the Show Organisers issued a statement distancing themselves from this happening?  Since there is video evidence and hundreds of of eye witnesses, are the RSPCA or other welfare organisations prosecuting?  Has Mr. Whitaker, or the stallion's owners, issued a statement condemning what supposedly happened to their horse?  Did the Head Groom actually resign, as someone earlier intimated that she had threatened to do?  What is this "gum line" that was supposedly used on the horse?  Is it illegal to twitch a horse? Is it illegal to hobble a horse?  Perhaps some ofyou who are so anti Natural Horsemanship due to this event would be kind enough to explain all this to me.
		
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There has been no knocking of natural horsemanship on this thread, on the contrary many of the posters expressing disgust seem to be natural horsepeople themselves.

I use some natural methods and some traditional methods but I have to say the hypocracy and arrogance of the Parellis has been getting to me for some time now.  Mr P seems to be believing his own hype and now he has gone too far.  Even some Parelli people are questioning him.  It seems to be only the truly brainwashed who are defending him and accusing those questioning him of just 'not understanding the methods'.  As for calling him a worldclass horsemaster - I beg to differ, Seunig was worldclass, Kotas is worldclass, Oliviera was world class, Parelli is not.

Whilst talking about this subject with an american friend, she told me that this sort of thing has happened in the States too and they were equally horrified.


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## Curls (29 July 2010)

I see that you have chosen to ignore my questions - anyone got the answers to these important points?  Enough people seem to have the answer to everything else.  Is someone who has a different opinion necessarily "truly brainwashed"?


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## martlin (29 July 2010)

Curls said:



			I see that you have chosen to ignore my questions - anyone got the answers to these important points?  Enough people seem to have the answer to everything else.  Is someone who has a different opinion necessarily "truly brainwashed"?
		
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I think Amymay has answered some, if not all of your questions.
Reading the whole thread and watching the videos would probably shed some light as well, I can understand that it is a time consuming task, though.


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## Amymay (29 July 2010)

martlin said:



			I think Amymay has answered some, if not all of your questions.
Reading the whole thread and watching the videos would probably shed some light as well, I can understand that it is a time consuming task, though.
		
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Indeed I did - as best as I could.


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## Curls (29 July 2010)

As I've said, I haven't had a chance to view the video because I can't get broadband, but | can see prejudice when I read it.  People who have condemned all Natural Horsemanship because of one episode that they weren't even at, themselves.  But the hate brigade will always be jealous of people who have found success and fame and those  who are traditionalists don't like the idea of not knowing as much as they thought they did.  Calling it Baloney, and Rubbish etc etc shows a level of ignorance beyond belief. If the BHS are going to prosecute the Parellis, I am surprised that hasn't been reported in the  newspapers - at the very least, I'd expect it to be in H&H.  If the answer to all those questions I posed is "NO" then what happened can't have been as bad at a lot of  the hysterical reactionists would have us believe.


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## martlin (29 July 2010)

I don't think anybody is condemning Natural Horsemanship at all. Some people express their thoughts and feelings better than others, but I haven't seen many 'hysterical reactionists' as you put it.
The whole point in this issue is that what PP did at the demo is contrary to what he preaches and not true to the NH ethos of no force etc.
I am perfectly aware that there is a lot about horses that I don't know, don't need NH practitioners to tell me that.


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## Amymay (29 July 2010)

But the hate brigade will always be jealous of people who have found success and fame and those who are traditionalists don't like the idea of not knowing as much as they thought they did.
		
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I think that once you've had the opportunity to read this whole thread (I appreciate it will take ages) you'll see that actually there has been some quite balanced discussion here.  Certainly jealousy hasn't come in to it, but certainly there has been a degree of vitriol because of the hypocritcal way in which the horse was treated by someone who is such an advocate of 'Natural Horsemanship'.

I know that certainly the BHS are investigating concerns raised over the treatment of the horse - and rightly so.  That was a specticle that should never happened.  However, prosecution would probably be a step to far.  If it ensures that this never happens again in the form of a public display though, then any investigation has its merrits.

All we can hope for, I suppose, is a raising in awareness of not taking as gospel everything we are told by certain 'practicioners' of questionable, expensive and at times bizarre techniques.


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## NOISYGIRL (29 July 2010)

Curls said:



			As I've said, I haven't had a chance to view the video because I can't get broadband, but | can see prejudice when I read it.  People who have condemned all Natural Horsemanship because of one episode that they weren't even at, themselves.  But the hate brigade will always be jealous of people who have found success and fame and those  who are traditionalists don't like the idea of not knowing as much as they thought they did.  Calling it Baloney, and Rubbish etc etc shows a level of ignorance beyond belief. If the BHS are going to prosecute the Parellis, I am surprised that hasn't been reported in the  newspapers - at the very least, I'd expect it to be in H&H.  If the answer to all those questions I posed is "NO" then what happened can't have been as bad at a lot of  the hysterical reactionists would have us believe.
		
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So how can you comment on something you haven't seen ?? at least we've seen more than you.

See the post above of what Mr Circus preaches - what seems to have happened is totally against what he spouted - people are not against NH just that he is a total con and does not practice what he preaches !


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## Golf Girl (29 July 2010)

amymay said:



			I know that certainly the BHS are investigating concerns raised over the treatment of the horse
		
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Are they? Do you have proof of this?


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## martlin (29 July 2010)

Golf Girl said:



			Are they? Do you have proof of this?
		
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Oh, dear! don't start again, please


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## Golf Girl (29 July 2010)

Originally Posted by amymay  
I know that certainly the BHS are investigating concerns raised over the treatment of the horse
		
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			Originally Posted by Golf Girl  
Are they? Do you have proof of this?
		
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martlin said:



			Oh, dear! don't start again, please

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I'm very sorry if this displeases you, but incorrect/unfounded statements cannot go unchallenged.


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## martlin (29 July 2010)

How is she supposed to prove it?
Are you suggesting that BHS is not investigating? If so, do you have proof of this?


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## Golf Girl (29 July 2010)

martlin said:



			How is she supposed to prove it?
Are you suggesting that BHS is not investigating? If so, do you have proof of this?
		
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They have issued no statement to the effect that they are investigating the matter, to my knowledge at least.


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## martlin (29 July 2010)

Does it mean they are not investigating? Lack of statement (to your knowledge) doesn't prove anything either way.


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## vandypip (29 July 2010)

ChristmasAngel said:



			There has been no knocking of natural horsemanship on this thread, on the contrary many of the posters expressing disgust seem to be natural horsepeople themselves.

I use some natural methods and some traditional methods but I have to say the hypocracy and arrogance of the Parellis has been getting to me for some time now.  Mr P seems to be believing his own hype and now he has gone too far.  Even some Parelli people are questioning him.  It seems to be only the truly brainwashed who are defending him and accusing those questioning him of just 'not understanding the methods'.  As for calling him a worldclass horsemaster - I beg to differ, Seunig was worldclass, Kotas is worldclass, Oliviera was world class, Parelli is not.

Whilst talking about this subject with an american friend, she told me that this sort of thing has happened in the States too and they were equally horrified.
		
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What do you mean by this sort of Thing has happened recently in the states? can you elaborate please?


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## Caledonia (29 July 2010)

Golf Girl said:



			They have issued no statement to the effect that they are investigating the matter, to my knowledge at least.
		
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I don't know any investigating body that shouts from the rooftops that they're investigating? Would kind of defeat the objective, huh?

However, as you appear to have a bee in your bonnet about it, why don't you ask them yourselves?


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## Golf Girl (29 July 2010)

martlin said:



			Does it mean they are not investigating? Lack of statement (to your knowledge) doesn't prove anything either way.
		
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I didn't say they weren't investigating, amymay said they were. I'm therefore asking her (or anyone else, for that matter) to provide proof to back up the statement she has made. Given the seriousness of the allegation, I don't think that is unreasonable, do you?


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## martlin (29 July 2010)

But do you have a proof that Amymay is not right? Are you accusing her of lying?


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## fburton (29 July 2010)

Is the supposed email from Lee Hackett (Senior Executive BHS, Welfare), posted elsewhere, a forgery then?? If they are not currently investigating, as the email implied they were doing -- or, indeed, if the email _was_ a forgery -- surely they would have issued a statement to that effect already?


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## Tinypony (29 July 2010)

Yes, Golfgirl, if you take the time to read this thread you will find a quoted email from Lee Hackett that supports what Amymay has said.
I'll just state it (again!), I live and breathe what many consider to be natural horsemanship, and I am sorely disappointed to see the way Pat P dealt with Catwalk.  That doesn't make me anti Parelli or anti NH.


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## Golf Girl (29 July 2010)

Tinypony said:



			Yes, Golfgirl, if you take the time to read this thread you will find a quoted email from Lee Hackett that supports what Amymay has said
		
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Hello TP. If you take the time to read the thread yourself, you will see that I have been involved in it from the early days


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## fburton (29 July 2010)

Golf Girl, do _you_ think the Lee Hackett email is fake?


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## Golf Girl (29 July 2010)

fburton said:



			Golf Girl, do _you_ think the Lee Hackett email is fake?
		
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I'm not implying that it's fake. It's an email that was written some time ago. Other events have overtaken it and as such, I don't think it stands as credible evidence that, at this point in time, there is an ongoing investigation into the Catwalk incident by the BHS.


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## Curls (29 July 2010)

I have now seen three videos of PP with Catwalk.  Second video shows him gently handling the stallion's head, and then bridling him.  Third shows an apparently relaxed and curious horse standing over a seated PP, sharing the man's sandwiches.  Would a psychologically traumatised horse really come so close so soon to his supposed abuser?  And how come no-one else has mentioned these other videos.  I spoke to the Welfare Department of the BHS today and was told that they are not aware of any investigation being planned against PP.


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## Unbeliever (29 July 2010)

Caledonia said:



			Curls - read the thread and look at the videos contained in it. I think you'll find most of your questions answered therein. 
Just as an aside though - there's nothing NATURAL about using gum-lines, twitches or hobbles on a horse, it is force, pure and simple.
		
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Not that I'm advocating any of the above, but what exactly is natural about saddles, bridles, lunge lines etc.?


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## Tinypony (29 July 2010)

Yes, a traumatised horse would be quite likely to come that close, so soon, to it's abuser.    

I can't quite believe that some are so carefully missing the points that so many are trying to make (quite politely in many cases).

1.  Parelli seems to be acting against his own previously stated principles in the way he dealt with Catwalk.  Refer to the quote I posted earlier.

2.  For many, the end doesn't justify the means.  It might be OK to some people, but to many of us the way that Catwalk was treated in his first "training" sessions is not justified by any number of videos showing him submitting to being bridled now.  I am sure that everyone here would agree that horses live in the moment.  They can't think "In a couple of hours this will all be over".  When a horse loses the use of it's legs, and has a painful device under it's top lip what exactly do we think that horse is experiencing at that time?  It is afraid and probably on an instinctive level it thinks it is going to die.  So, for all of the time we see Catwalk struggling in the ropes, throwing himself backwards, attempting to escape from the arena, he was very afraid.  When you consider the alternatives, as demonstrated by countless other experienced and kind trainers, how can that be justified?  

If the BHS is no longer going to investigate the treatment of this horse, in spite of the fact that they said they would and that video evidence of the entire incident is available, then I think that is a real shame.  In light of the controversy it has caused that would at least be one way to set records straight.  I can't help but wonder, as others have done before me, what the reaction would have been if a couple of travellers had been video'd doing this to a horse at Appleby Fair.

What is really telling to me is the number of Pat Parelli's own current students who have admitted that they are shocked by this incident, and have lost faith in him as a result.  Those who insist on joining this forum just to enter into battle are doing nothing to improve perceptions of Parelli NH, quite the reverse.  There is another thread here started by Tongue In Cheek that could teach them a thing or two about promoting the system that they love.

I really think that is the last I can be bothered to post on this topic.


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## Caledonia (29 July 2010)

Unbeliever said:



			Not that I'm advocating any of the above, but what exactly is natural about saddles, bridles, lunge lines etc.?
		
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Nothing - which kind of knocks the whole 'NATURAL' horsemanship on it's head really.


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## Caledonia (29 July 2010)

Curls said:



			I have now seen three videos of PP with Catwalk.  Second video shows him gently handling the stallion's head, and then bridling him.  Third shows an apparently relaxed and curious horse standing over a seated PP, sharing the man's sandwiches.  Would a psychologically traumatised horse really come so close so soon to his supposed abuser?  And how come no-one else has mentioned these other videos.
		
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So, Curls, are you saying you find nothing wrong with the way the horse was forced into a gumline, and had his leg tied up, and was put under pressure for over two hours? 
If you are, then I personally have little or no respect for any opinions you may put forward, because to my mind, that is condoning abusive treatment to a horse.


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## Golf Girl (30 July 2010)

Tinypony said:



			What is really telling to me is the number of Pat Parelli's own current students who have admitted that they are shocked by this incident, and have lost faith in him as a result. Those who insist on joining this forum just to enter into battle are doing nothing to improve perceptions of Parelli NH, quite the reverse.  There is another thread here started by Tongue In Cheek that could teach them a thing or two about promoting the system that they love.

I really think that is the last I can be bothered to post on this topic.
		
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How very, very judgemental of you! I am one of 'Pat Parelli's current students' and whilst the incident may have made me stop and think and question what was done on the night and why, I joined this forum because I object to the tactics adopted by a certain (very) vocal minority here and elsewhere who have used this recent 'incident' as fuel for their anti-Parelli fire.

People should stick to the proven facts, and stop trying to stir things up with exaggerations, fabrications and rumour-mongering.


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## Tinypony (30 July 2010)

I've tried to be the voice of reason on this forum many times when Parelli is discussed Golf Girl.  I've typed endless long posts seeking to explain the why behind Parelli "games", patterns and what people call tricks.  Even though I'm no longer a Parelli student (I left the programme while working on old Level 2 ridden and Level 3 groundwork), it depressed me to read people ridiculing it.  It's got to the point sometimes when they've turned on me, thinking I'm a "Parelli fanatic", when I'm afraid I'm definitely not.  If I see the value in something I will say so though, and I do see the value in SOME of what Parelli teaches.  However, I had to leave, because I realised that when I watched Pat and some of his instructors working, they were not doing anything that I aspired to.
If you think your style of aggressive posting will do more to benefit Parelli, carry on.  I am sure people will see you as a great ambassador for Parelli Natural Horse.Man.Ship.
(In other words, go Golf Girl, you've just alienated a long-time H+H member who regularly said supportive things about Parelli.  Let's see how many more members you can polarise.)


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## mik (30 July 2010)

I think the end does not justify the means in this case. regardless of who did it or why,
 Just my humble opinion. 
I also feel horsemanship pigeonholed into a 'named method' is always going to be restricted and encourage narrow-mindedness when dealing with different horses and scenarios.
Open minded training based on respect for the animal, horsemanship (in the old sense of the word), knowledge, training  and experience, combined with a willingness to learn from other people is the only way forward. 
A bit of humility wouldn't hurt IMHO.


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## fburton (30 July 2010)

Golf Girl said:



			I am one of 'Pat Parelli's current students' and whilst the incident may have made me stop and think and question what was done on the night and why, I joined this forum because I object to the tactics adopted by a certain (very) vocal minority here and elsewhere who have used this recent 'incident' as fuel for their anti-Parelli fire.
		
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_Did_ the incident make you question what was done? Was your initial reaction one of shock, but did you then go on to rationalize that Pat Parelli surely must have known what he was doing and therefore his treatment of Catwalk was entirely justifiable? Or do you think what he did was actually a mistake?

FWIW, I don't believe that Catwalk was abused in any legally enforceable sense - so it wouldn't surprise me if the BHS concludes there is no case to be answered. I do, however, feel sorry for the horse who had to endure the entirely unnecessary upset and, imo, poor handling on the Friday night. I would like to see the evidence that a conventional desensitization programme had been attempted previously by someone who really knew what they were doing (although one would have thought that Pat would have mentioned this in his initial commentary if it had already been tried). I would really like to know what you and Pat think of Michael Peace's approach to the headshy horse as shown in the video clip. Good horsemanship, rubbish, or nothing special? 

You know, it's not so much the way the horse was mishandled that bothers me (although of course it does) as much as the way the Parelli machine deals with incidents like these and the raising of concerns in general. The overwhelming impression is that they believe they can do no wrong, and that Pat _et al_. are so far above the rest of us mere mortals that we are simply unable to comprehend what he does (i.e. we can't trust the evidence our own eyes) - either you "believe in Parelli" or your knowledge and experience count for nothing. This self-assurance borders on arrogance because it admits no questioning. Where is the open-mindedness? As mik said, a little humility wouldn't hurt.

Why does this matter? Because it's a major obstacle to PNH improving. I really want to see Parelli improve, to extend into areas previously shunned, to be less dogmatic about certain approaches. The system has much to commend it in terms of connecting with members and the quality of its teaching materials. I know it has helped a lot of people; I would like it to help horses more, much more. But how can it do that effectively if it is convinced of its own infallibility to the degree it appears to be?!


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## leogeorge (30 July 2010)

Quote Tinypony.....

*2. For many, the end doesn't justify the means. It might be OK to some people, but to many of us the way that Catwalk was treated in his first "training" sessions is not justified by any number of videos showing him submitting to being bridled now. I am sure that everyone here would agree that horses live in the moment. They can't think "In a couple of hours this will all be over". When a horse loses the use of it's legs, and has a painful device under it's top lip what exactly do we think that horse is experiencing at that time? It is afraid and probably on an instinctive level it thinks it is going to die. So, for all of the time we see Catwalk struggling in the ropes, throwing himself backwards, attempting to escape from the arena, he was very afraid. When you consider the alternatives, as demonstrated by countless other experienced and kind trainers, how can that be justified? *

Apart from the gumline, I recall saying pretty much the same to you about your latest favourite trainer and the actions he took at one of his clinics which involved roping a frightened ponys leg, and you banned me from your forum!!! I can't quite believe you've got the nerve!!


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## Tinypony (30 July 2010)

That's not why you were banned Leogeorge, and you know it.  You have been repeatedly banned from several forums, under different names, and by different moderators for your rude and nasty postings, yet for some reason you keep going back and doing it again.  The instance you are talking about didn't happen on my forum, it happened on a forum where I was a moderator.  In fact, if I remember correctly that may have been the occasion when the forum owner banned you rather than me.  Hard to remember as I think you got banned from that particular place 3 times in total?  
The pony you are talking about didn't throw itself about, struggle, throw itself backwards... and if it had even started to react like that the rope would have been dropped. Oh, what's the point?  I'm not going to get into any pointless discussions with you here, I might even employ the ignore button...
Just to keep track, so far you've been banned once from my forum because we don't like you based on our previous experiences, and once because you decided to join under yet another name to have a nasty dig at one of our members.  Personally I can't see why any adult would persistently join discussion groups where they aren't welcome under different names, but it takes all sorts I suppose.
(Talk about off topic... 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 )


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## martlin (30 July 2010)

leogeorge said:



			Quote Tinypony.....

*2. For many, the end doesn't justify the means. It might be OK to some people, but to many of us the way that Catwalk was treated in his first "training" sessions is not justified by any number of videos showing him submitting to being bridled now. I am sure that everyone here would agree that horses live in the moment. They can't think "In a couple of hours this will all be over". When a horse loses the use of it's legs, and has a painful device under it's top lip what exactly do we think that horse is experiencing at that time? It is afraid and probably on an instinctive level it thinks it is going to die. So, for all of the time we see Catwalk struggling in the ropes, throwing himself backwards, attempting to escape from the arena, he was very afraid. When you consider the alternatives, as demonstrated by countless other experienced and kind trainers, how can that be justified? *

Apart from the gumline, I recall saying pretty much the same to you about your latest favourite trainer and the actions he took at one of his clinics which involved roping a frightened ponys leg, and you banned me from your forum!!! I can't quite believe you've got the nerve!!
		
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That's quite unpleasant, personal and unnecessary of you


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## Tinypony (30 July 2010)

p.s.  I don't join forums in disguise, I have different names sometimes, normally dependent on the mood I'm in when I join, but it's normally pretty easy to work out who I am.  For instance my name here is the name of my pony.  I post on other forums as kas, and I think I've also been Crystal Fire, again the name of my horse.  So no secret squirrel here.


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## martlin (30 July 2010)

I never suggested you were secret squirrel?


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## Tinypony (30 July 2010)

Don't worry Martlin, she makes a habit of it.  I won't be engaging in any tit for tat with her, I'm really not interested, just a bit puzzled about why she picks on me, out of all the people who have banned her over the years.  Probably because I don't hide my identity.
Martlin, we crossed.  I was refering to Leogeorge's habit of joining forums under different identities.


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## martlin (30 July 2010)

lol, never mind, I'm a) easily confused and b) haven't got a clue who you are, apart from being Tinypony of course


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## JanetGeorge (30 July 2010)

Golf Girl said:



			because I object to the tactics adopted by a certain (very) vocal minority here and elsewhere who have used this recent 'incident' as fuel for their anti-Parelli fire.
		
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And why do you think there IS anti-Parelli fire!!  I rarely waste time rubbishing Parelli - those who've seen enough agree with me anyway - and the Parelli 'disciples' work largely on blind faith.  Most of the time I actually couldn't give a monkey's about Parelli - but it habitually turns up in my life enough to get me infuriated all over again!

On Tuesday I sent a very capable horse transporter to pick up a 4 year old mare from a livery yard - she was considered a bit 'difficult' and was coming here to be backed.  Transporter had hardly started 'asking' the mare to load when the yard nutters turned up en masse -to help!  Owner (who is very quiet and polite) didn't like to tell them to pi** off - transporter wasn't in a position to!  The mare was subjected to 6 hours of incompetent attempts to load her including two hours of being 'Parelli'd' by the yard's resident Parelli disciple!  From all accounts she reared, she kicked, she barged, she took off - etc. etc. etc.

So I went up yesterday -  3 hour journey - to collect her - expecting some sort of ill-mannered monster! But she was a lovely, friendly little mare who was sporting a huge raw patch on her lower jaw (from pressure halter!! ) - and several cuts and knocks.  The yard nutters hung around and watched from a distance - somehow they must have got the message!  It took 50 minutes to quietly persuade her that she wasn't going to be hurt - or forced - and that coming into the trailer was 'safe'!  Not a rear - nor a kick - nor a barge occurred!  She then travelled beautifully and unloaded calmly!  And she's been a gem today - both in the stable and when turned out.

While we were loading her (I took my own assistant), one of the yard nutters referred to the mare as a 'stubborn bitch'.  I was very restrained and didn't call YN a stupid, braindead bitch!  Yard Manager couldn't wait to tell me that the mare was spoilt rotten, had charged through all her (electric) fences - and was a nutter in the stable.  But - she informed me - she would be fine to break in because SHE had decided to saddle and bridle her and lunge her until she was 'knackered' the day after the loading debacle! 

So - there are raving loonies from all schools of 'horsemanship' - the Parelli person who abused a nice, sensitive little mare was no worse than some of the others.  But he was certainly no better!  But then - as we saw with Catwalk - Prat Parelli doesn't practice what he preaches so HE's no better either!  His work with Catwalk aimed to DOMINATE a sensitive horse who obviously had real fears about being bridled.  Working quietly and patiently with him to get his confidence and resolve his issues would not have 'made' a demonstration - and would have taken too long!

Maybe Catwalk is accepting the bridle now - or is he just tolerating it?  Does he now like and TRUST humans??  I wonder!


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## skewbald_again (30 July 2010)

Haven't read all this thread, but in my long experience of working with stallions about no per cent of any 'school' of thought has the foggiest clue how to approach or handle them, and Parelli is no different.
Anyone who sets out to sort out a serious problem with a sensitive horse, especially an entire sensitive horse, in public, under lights, with an audience, for money wants shooting, really in my book, what ever 'theory' they espouse.


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## leogeorge (30 July 2010)

Tinypony...Not off topic at all. We are talking about leg roping and I feel that you are a little hypocritical in some of what you say, as are all the Monty followers who supported his use of the gumline at a demo not that long ago, who are now somehow "disgusted" (quite rightly as it goes) at PPs use of the same instrument of torture and are stating that force should never be used. They will also say that "it was different". My question is, is it? I don't think so. Using ropes and gumlines to force the issue, is what it is. Not nice in any situation....IMHO.


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## Alfie&Milo (30 July 2010)

I'm a new Parelli fan and personally was shocked to hear of this treatment, but it doesn't change how I feel about Parelli because I know that I'm practising what is on the dvds and its working brilliantly on my two youngsters, and I know that what I am doing is not abusive to my horses. 

I feel that Pat Parelli was pressurized to train this stallion in an allotted time which made him lose his patience. Everyone makes mistakes, his program does change horses and I feel that it's maybe unfair to make this much fuss when many people turn a blind eye to much worse abuse of horses everyday. Robert Whitaker hasn't stepped up and complained ...


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## martlin (30 July 2010)

Alfie&Milo said:



			I'm a new Parelli fan and personally was shocked to hear of this treatment, but it doesn't change how I feel about Parelli because I know that I'm practising what is on the dvds and its working brilliantly on my two youngsters, and I know that what I am doing is not abusive to my horses. 

I feel that Pat Parelli was pressurized to train this stallion in an allotted time which made him lose his patience. Everyone makes mistakes, his program does change horses and I feel that it's maybe unfair to make this much fuss when many people turn a blind eye to much worse abuse of horses everyday. 
The fact that worse things happen in the world does not make Catwalk's treatment any better or more justifiable IMO
Robert Whitaker hasn't stepped up and complained ...
I'm not sure that is saying anything positive about Robert Whitaker TBH

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And some extra letters


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## Alfie&Milo (30 July 2010)

fair enough 
just expressing my opinion too


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## Curls (31 July 2010)

Well said, Alfie&milo, no-one who was not an eyewitness to the incident can really know what took place and why.  None of the welfare organisations is taking action against PP, none of those concerned with the organisation of the event has made a statement condemning what happened. etc. etc.  
I can place a rope around any of my horses' legs and place their feet where I need to.  It is not cruel - nor different to placing a restraint on the horse's head.  I mentioned in a previous posting that no-one has talked about the other postings, but someone has said that, in the video where the horse is sharing a sandwich with a seated PP, the horse was exhausted, tied with a halter and rope AND a lassoo.  The horse was not exhausted since this session took place on another day.  And would a horse who felt so restrained eat in the first place? No, of course it wouldn't.

I have no issue with people passing a fair and informed opinion - that is their innate right - but when they are so obviously prejudiced it invalidates every word they speak.


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## Curls (31 July 2010)

Why are you  putting words into my mouth, Caledonia?  This is my real objection to this whole thread.  As golfgirl is saying, there are those who have used this incident for their own anti-Parelli campaign, distorting what may very well have been a regrettable incident - I cannot say because I was not there and the fact that no-one is prosecuting PP for what happened rather belies some of the histrionic posting on this thread.  There are others who post under multiple names, it appears, who are having a pop at someone else on this thread for their own personal reasons.

There are also others who do not seem to understand what "natural" means in the context of Parelli.  I'd advise them to take the time to study a little of it so they can become more enlightened.  Nothing that we do with horses is natural to them.  For me the "natural" part is communicating our wishes to the horse using the language he understands - body language.  just my humble opinion. 

I would not personally use a gumline on a horse - but I don't know what led up to one being used.  I have never seen PP use one before and I have seen a great deal of his pulications of all sorts.  I do know that stallions can be very aggressive and some need to be handled with great expertise.  Again, I don't know what this horse was like which led to it being gumlined.  I once saw another famous handler use one to teach a horse not to buck - the horse came up against his own pressure and never bucked again.  Job done, whether you support the means to the end or not.  It was the saving of the horse's life, I feel, as previously the horse was unrideable.

Many people who work with horses, whether professional or amateur, used "natural" horsemanship to a greater or lesser extent.  Some may not even realise that they are doing it.  It is not some mystical cult, and it is unfair of the hate brigade to condemn the entire ethic on the basis of something that most of them didn't even witness.   Cut out the hysterics and
keep to the realistic facts, IMHO.


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## Bramley (31 July 2010)

I am still furious to. I have a great friend who is a Parelli instructer who is standing up for him and refuses to see what he did. I am sure the parelli followers are brainwashed , like a religious cult with him as God and all good sense leaves them. I taught her for years to love and respect her horses and all that seems to have gone out the window!


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## Tinypony (31 July 2010)

Curls said:



			I can place a rope around any of my horses' legs and place their feet where I need to.  It is not cruel - nor different to placing a restraint on the horse's head.
		
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That's not what happened with Catwalk though is it?  Have you looked at the videos that are available?  I too can "lead my horse by the leg", all of my horses, any leg, any direction.  The difference is that my horses didn't go through plunging about with two people hanging on the rope to acheive that.  
I agree with you that there are some exagerated rumours flying around about this incident.  However, there are also some short videos to be seen, and even though they are poor quality, they are clear enough to show some of the work with Catwalk.  Will you allow people to object to what they have seen with their own eyes on those videos?  
I hope that Pat P is proud enough of what he did to release the full 2+ hours of work in that first session.  Then the speculation can stop, because people will be able to see for themselves.  Just as they could see Linda working with the one-eyed horse on the Level 1 instructional DVD I guess.  (They may interpret what they see differently, but that's another story.)


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## showjumperxo (1 August 2010)

parelli is an absolute pile of w**k! 
the horse was obviously upset by the 'experience' and if i'm right, it wasn't allowed to jump the next day? 

they shouldn't be allowed near horses.


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## tictactoe (1 August 2010)

Hello everyone, I am new to this (so much so that it took me 3 attempts to register  )
For now I just want to say hello, and say that I have read a lot of the posts, got to page 121  , and did mean to finish, but jee whizz it takes time.
I will say that I have been pleased by some comments, views and honesty, and yes giggled at some too, and worried by some words that can only be aimed to cause problems, although, free speach and all.
I will prob say how I feel too, but for now, partly because it took me soooooooooooo long to register that I cant remember most recent posts  , and the time of night, I will say goodnight to all, uk, usa and any other country on here (still find it really cool that I can chat with someone so far away with such ease, yes I can be a little saft a times  )


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## zefragile (1 August 2010)

showjumperxo said:



			parelli is an absolute pile of w**k! 
the horse was obviously upset by the 'experience' and if i'm right, it wasn't allowed to jump the next day? 

they shouldn't be allowed near horses.
		
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Erm, the horse "wasn't allowed to jump the next day?"... where did you find that out?


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## amandap (1 August 2010)

fburton said:



			Why does this matter? Because it's a major obstacle to PNH improving. I really want to see Parelli improve, to extend into areas previously shunned, to be less dogmatic about certain approaches. The system has much to commend it in terms of connecting with members and the quality of its teaching materials. I know it has helped a lot of people; I would like it to help horses more, much more. But how can it do that effectively if it is convinced of its own infallibility to the degree it appears to be?!
		
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ROFL! I cannot believe what I'm reading I'm afraid. Parelli is based on what you call 'dominance games' so what on earth you could possibly see to commend it is a very odd thing for you to write imo! You do not believe that dominance in any shape or form plays any useful part in horse society or training from my reading and understanding of your posts so how can you see any good in any NH?? All NH is based on dominance in my understanding so my understanding of your opinion is that all NH is fundamentally flawed, even bad and wrong. So to say you wish any of it to improve is rather condescending and hypocritical. Connecting with owners is done through 'shows' and the modern love of things/equipment all things where helping the horse is not necessarily the aim... ie. teaching is. I imagine you wish it were wiped from the face of the earth surely???

I go much further if I'm to continue to submit to this view (that dominance is irrelevant or non existant) and say that we humans have NO business or right whatsoever to USE any animals  because it involves us interferring with them, influencing them, controlling them, confining then and inhibiting them. Where this becomes abuse is only a human individual idea depending what your beliefs are and where your bottom line is... imo any captivity/use of animals is abuse.

'It depends' is no longer acceptable to me if I accept that dominance is not an ethical part of my life with my horses.
I'm frequently called hypocritical these days (fair enough) especially by people like leogeorge but aren't we ALL and don't we ALL rationalize things to make what we do alright and acceptable??? Or am I a hypoctrite because I don't see certain things the way some others do??


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## leogeorge (1 August 2010)

*I'm frequently called hypocritical these days (fair enough) especially by people like leogeorge*


I'm sorry????  I suppose if you were one of those who defended Montys use of the buckstop recently and is now disgusted by what PP did to catwalk, then yes you would be a bit of a hypocrit, but I can't remember if you did, so therefore not aimed at you directly.


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## amandap (1 August 2010)

I would be one who was called a hypoctrite about Monty's use of the buckstopper and Monty's methods as a whole on many, many occasions despite me also saying what I wouldn't personally do in his methods. But then I haven't hardly past any comment about PP because I haven't studied PP and I wasn't there so perhaps I'm only a 3/4 hypocrite?. Hopefully these incidents and discussions  will put a stop to shows, clinics and any exhibitions by humans using horses... in fact hopefully people will stop using horses (and other animals) to amuse and 'better' themselves full stop no matter what reasons and excuses humans try to say that it's justifiable. 

I was speaking of my 'former' belief that occasionally discomfort and pain is justifiable but now after my thoughts about 'it depends' have been 'shaped', I think we need to ask if any animal keeping is justifiable if none of us are to be hypocritical.  

People who are consitantly nasty and abusive to and about people and not prepared to use the extreme postive approach they use with horses with humans as well are imo hypocritcal. 

It's so easy to blame and dismiss Trainers for teaching what some believe are 'bad' methods but I believe it's high time we as owners took the full responsibility that is ours and ours alone when we buy or become a carer of any animal. We as owners are ultimately responsible for the horses in our care not some Trainer or Behaviourist or even Vet or other professional... it is up to us to learn about horses and individual 'professionals' who may be involved with our horses and make choices and take responsibility ourselves for those choices.
We can all sit here and blame a Trainer, a Vet, a Trimmer, a Farrier etc. but who employed them?? Who allowed them near our horses??
If we get it wrong, learn and move on but blame gets us no where except push this responsiblity away from ourselves.
 NH and all Trainers will die a death naturally if they have nothing but bad training to offer when and only when owners get informed and get to know their horses. 

I personally am one who likes to focus on the horse itself for lessons but now my experiences and beliefs are thrown out as untrue and some sort of fanciful 'story' because it makes me feel good I am left in a no mans land because I just cannot feel at all comfortable with keeping horses at all with this new found knowledge because there should be no compromise if we truly wish to 'help' horses.
This is my problem I know but for me compromise at any level in terms of another animal has now become unethical.


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## Caledonia (1 August 2010)

Curls said:



			Why are you  putting words into my mouth, Caledonia?
		
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I didn't?



Curls said:



			This is my real objection to this whole thread.  As golfgirl is saying, there are those who have used this incident for their own anti-Parelli campaign, distorting what may very well have been a regrettable incident - *I cannot say because I was not there* and the fact that no-one is prosecuting PP for what happened rather belies some of the histrionic posting on this thread.
		
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From the section of your prose I have highlighted in black, by your own definition you are no more entitled to an opinion than the rest of us. 

I most certainly am not using this sole incident as an anti-Parelli campaign, there is much I dislike about Parelli, this was yet another incidence of their hypocrisy. I also don't recall being histrionic at any stage?




Curls said:



			There are also others who do not seem to understand what "natural" means in the context of Parelli.  I'd advise them to take the time to study a little of it so they can become more enlightened.  Nothing that we do with horses is natural to them.  For me the "natural" part is communicating our wishes to the horse using the language he understands - body language.  just my humble opinion.
		
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So, tying up the leg and using a gumline is body language? Seriously, listen to yourself.




Curls said:



			I would not personally use a gumline on a horse - but I don't know what led up to one being used.  I have never seen PP use one before and I have seen a great deal of his pulications of all sorts.
		
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Lucky he just happened to have one to hand on this particular occasion, huh?



Curls said:



			I do know that stallions can be very aggressive and some need to be handled with great expertise.  Again, I don't know what this horse was like which led to it being gumlined.
		
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That is a sweeping statement and not relevant in the case of this horse, at no point is he said to have shown any aggression, merely a desire to avoid PP. 



Curls said:



			I once saw another famous handler use one to teach a horse not to buck - the horse came up against his own pressure and never bucked again.  Job done, whether you support the means to the end or not.  It was the saving of the horse's life, I feel, as previously the horse was unrideable.
		
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Totally irrelevant in this instance. This horse's problem was not endangering either his life or his future.




Curls said:



			Many people who work with horses, whether professional or amateur, used "natural" horsemanship to a greater or lesser extent.  Some may not even realise that they are doing it.  It is not some mystical cult, and it is unfair of the hate brigade to condemn the entire ethic on the basis of something that most of them didn't even witness.   *Cut out the hysterics and
keep to the realistic facts, IMHO*

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Please credit us with some intelligence. I think most of the detractors are fully aware it is not remotely mystical, it's simply another way of making horses do what humans want them to. However, the facts are he used force and methods totally against his supposed ethos that he preaches.


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## EAST KENT (1 August 2010)

COULD SOMEONE EXPLAIN PLEASE exactly WHAT A GUM LINE IS AND HOW IT IS APPLIED /WORKS?


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## amandap (1 August 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5O4JHJhiUE

I'll only comment here that as long as humans continue to say, 'stop my horse bucking by tomorrow or my horse goes to be shot' then there will be people who will use this and similar devices.


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## skewbald_again (1 August 2010)

What tickles me is all this Pat says this and Linda says that whereas Monty did this malarkey. First name terms LOL. Are you all best chums with these marketing experts? 
For that is what they are. I have known know several toothless old buggers who have forgotten more about horses than either of them ever knew or will ever know, and willingly shared their knowledge without a dvd or  gadget in sight. Cost me a pint or two and a lot of swallowed pride as they weren't known for being either polite or PC.


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## jahseh (1 August 2010)

EAST KENT said:



			COULD SOMEONE EXPLAIN PLEASE exactly WHAT A GUM LINE IS AND HOW IT IS APPLIED /WORKS?
		
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I don't know for certain but I am fairly sure in this case it is simply a smooth looped rope, which in this instance would be a 'savvy string' the same thing found on the end of a 'carrot stick' which all parelli professionals carry all the time either in a pocket or looped through a belt loop etc. The looped rope would then be put in the mouth and be able to take the place of a bit and curb or bit and drop noseband?


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## tictactoe (1 August 2010)

OMG just wrote, in my opinion some intersting things, and lost it when posting 
ok, I'll try again.
Tho would be happier if someone would ask me things cuz its much easier than writing own stuff out of my head, cuz I waffle like a fruit loop, and use saying after saying and get lost in my own words. But... I will use, many roads lead to rome. Horses for courses. And, one mans cold is another mans cancer.


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## JanetGeorge (1 August 2010)

Alfie&Milo said:



			I feel that Pat Parelli was pressurized to train this stallion in an allotted time which made him lose his patience. Everyone makes mistakes, his program does change horses and I feel that it's maybe unfair to make this much fuss when many people turn a blind eye to much worse abuse of horses everyday. Robert Whitaker hasn't stepped up and complained ...
		
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Sorry - but that's plain rubbish.

1.  If Prelli felt 'pressured' - who by??  He selects the horses he will use in HIS demos - if he thought it was unsuitable he wouldn't have used it!  BUT, it was RW's expensive problem horse - he saw kudos in 'sorting' a horse RW couldn't - so common sense went out the window.

2.  A trainer who loses patience because he can't get the response he wants when he wants it is not FIT to be called a trainer - let alone to preach to others!

3.  There IS far worse abuse every day of the week, sadly.  What made this SO wrong is that Prat Parelli has tens of thousands of naive followers who hang on his every word.  They see HIM publicly abusing a horse (and there is quite a bit of abuse within the Prat Parelli 'system') and figure it's ok because Prat does it!

The basic underlying flaw in the Prat P system is the idea of 'dominance'!  You CAN'T 'dominate' a horse that has ANYTHING about it WITHOUT using brute strength or gadgets - you can dress them up with fancy names but they are still tools that allow you to FORCE a horse to submit!


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## Archiehorse (1 August 2010)

All I can say is: disgraceful.  I had no preconceptions about Parelli and in fact have looked at their website with interest a few times.  But having watched the video, the only way to describe it is abuse.

Next time I see them advertising at Olympia (or whichever other horsey event they happen to be adverstising at) I will be telling them exactly that - loudly and publicly.  Lets see how good that is for business...


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## Tinypony (1 August 2010)

Go back a page and amandap has posted a link to a Monty Roberts video that explains exactly what a gumline is, and how he uses one.  It works by pressure on the gums, not the tongue or bars of the mouth like a bit.


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## galaxy (1 August 2010)

Quote:
Originally Posted by EAST KENT  
COULD SOMEONE EXPLAIN PLEASE exactly WHAT A GUM LINE IS AND HOW IT IS APPLIED /WORKS? 

posted by Jayseh
I don't know for certain but I am fairly sure in this case it is simply a smooth looped rope, which in this instance would be a 'savvy string' the same thing found on the end of a 'carrot stick' which all parelli professionals carry all the time either in a pocket or looped through a belt loop etc. The looped rope would then be put in the mouth and be able to take the place of a bit and curb or bit and drop noseband? 




No it's not as above.

A "gum line" works the same as a commanche calmer.  If you google it you'll see they're for sale in most tackshops as an alternative to a twitch.

A gum line is inserted into the mouth and lays ontop on the gum above the teeth below the lip and then comes out the other sise.  To have the desired effect (of a twitch) only slight gentle pressure needs to be used.  PP USED IT COMPLETELY INCORRECTLY!!!!!!!!!  I have used a commanche clamer as an alternative to a twitch and never left a mark on my horse.

A gum line/commanche calmer is completely different to a buck stop for those people who are trying to compare them.  A buck stop yes goes under the top lip but never has the action of a twitch.  It has no action at all unless the horse puts it's head down and bronks when it will experience discomfort.

I have also seen a buck stop used (and after 2 attempts the horse never bucked again!) and it also never marked the horse.


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## Tinypony (1 August 2010)

Maybe you should watch the video, Monty Roberts starts by saying "So, the buckstopper is a gumline..." (ect)
I think Pat P may have been using his gumline with the same intention as a buckstopper, in other words so that the horse would only feel it if it did the "wrong" thing.  If that is the case then I guess he was using it correctly.  I doubt he was intending to use it as a twitch, but maybe that will get clarified one day.  "Make the right thing easy and the wrong thing difficult" is a phrase used quite frequently in Parelli training.


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## baymareb (1 August 2010)

skewbald_again said:



			What tickles me is all this Pat says this and Linda says that whereas Monty did this malarkey. First name terms LOL. Are you all best chums with these marketing experts?
		
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Okay, this made me literally laugh out loud.  How true it is!



skewbald_again said:



			I have known know several toothless old buggers who have forgotten more about horses than either of them ever knew or will ever know, and willingly shared their knowledge without a dvd or  gadget in sight. Cost me a pint or two and a lot of swallowed pride as they weren't known for being either polite or PC.
		
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And how true THIS is.  Couldn't agree more.  Our old blacksmith from when I was a kid was wonderful with horses, kept teams of Belgians that he competed with in pulling contests and all the years I knew him, I don't think I ever heard him raise his voice to a horse or saw him lose his patience.

Of course, he's retired now and lives in poverty.  If only he'd had the sense to put out a bunch of DVD's.


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## Tinypony (1 August 2010)

I've got advice from the toothless old buggers and all sorts of people, including some who I have paid for the benefit of their experience and skill.  I don't actually object to paying someone for their time and help.  Personally, I try not to work for free.
If it makes any difference to anything, which I don't think it does, I have been on first name terms with Pat and Linda Parelli in the past, having spent time with them and done some work for them.  Doesn't make me best mates with them, but I don't see a problem with using their first names in a discussion where it's bliddy obvious who is being refered to.


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## tictactoe (1 August 2010)

7HL said:



			It will die on it's own.

H&H shouldn't delete it or close it. They would then say Parelli got them to close it down.
		
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how would we ever know.

Do you know if Michael Jackson is dead ?
Do you know how much money Richard Branson has ?
Do you know if Brad Pitt was actually voted sexiest man alive?
Do you know if the ozone layer is going to collapse ?

all of whats written, spoken or seen can be manipulated. Have you ever played chinese whispers or been around when 5 unconnected people describe the same accident, with different facts. Who knows whats "true" or "fiction" but, this is a good place to speak about what we all would like to say, cuz to chat is good, to discuss is good, to debate is good, even to read the bad spellings is good  so lets not start saying what should or shouldnt be done with this forum, and then who did or didnt do it, cuz, well, we all have the right to free speach


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## galaxy (1 August 2010)

Tinypony said:



			Maybe you should watch the video, Monty Roberts starts by saying "So, the buckstopper is a gumline..." (ect)
I think Pat P may have been using his gumline with the same intention as a buckstopper, in other words so that the horse would only feel it if it did the "wrong" thing.  If that is the case then I guess he was using it correctly.  I doubt he was intending to use it as a twitch, but maybe that will get clarified one day.  "Make the right thing easy and the wrong thing difficult" is a phrase used quite frequently in Parelli training.
		
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But the how it comes into effect is totally different.  I have used/been involved with both and have seen the video of the Catwalk demo.  The buckstop could be called "a gumline" in that is a rope that goes across the gum, but the action that happen with how the buckstop comes into action and the line that PP used (and how the Commanche Calmer works) is totally different.  The buckstop comes into action in a quick uncomfortable action, the Commanche Calmer and the way that PP used his gumline is used over a period of time (although should be gentle!)

Maybe PP was trying to use it in a quick uncomfortable action.    But IMO that is not as it is intended to be used and it caused a sore of some description which proves that to me anyway. (although hauling on it with all your weight over a long period of time does not say to me he was trying to use it that way). I have never seen a buckstop cause any physical damage to a horse. 

Just because Monty called it a gumline does not mean it the same thing.


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## jahseh (1 August 2010)

galaxy23 said:



			But the how it comes into effect is totally different.  I have used/been involved with both and have seen the video of the Catwalk demo.  The buckstop could be called "a gumline" in that is a rope that goes across the gum, but the action that happen with how the buckstop comes into action and the line that PP used (and how the Commanche Calmer works) is totally different.  The buckstop comes into action in a quick uncomfortable action, the Commanche Calmer and the way that PP used his gumline is used over a period of time (although should be gentle!)

Maybe PP was trying to use it in a quick uncomfortable action.    But IMO that is not as it is intended to be used and it caused a sore of some description which proves that to me anyway. (although hauling on it with all your weight over a long period of time does not say to me he was trying to use it that way). I have never seen a buckstop cause any physical damage to a horse. 

Just because Monty called it a gumline does not mean it the same thing.
		
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which videos show this being used?


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## amandap (2 August 2010)

amandap said:



			All NH is based on dominance in my understanding
		
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Mmmmm better clarify here. To me (in a previous belief system) all Horsemanship is based on dominance imo. All animal husbandry is based on dominance, to say that we don't dominate other species to some degree or another is imo denial and trying to say we work with the animals and want to 'help' them and give them choices is great but we mustn't forget that their fundamental choices about where they live, what they eat, who they live with and spend time with and when are controlled by us. We even control who they mate with and go so far as to dictate HOW they mate... call that what ever you like but to me that is dominating another species.
Previously it was 'how' we use this dominance that was important to me but if we don't 'dominate' and shouldn't dominate at all then we shouldn't have animals in domesticity or manipulate our environment to our own ends or manipulate genes or living conditions etc. etc.

I need a new word for what we as humans do to/with other species before I can dismiss dominance as inherently bad. The fact that we alter anything in other species is dominance to me therefore if we do not wish to dominate we shouldn't domesticate at all.
We can comfort ourselves with thoughts that we are giving them choices and being their partners and not forcing them but we are still in the end dominating them surely? The choices we give them are between things in our world but in all this are we giving them choices that they value as species??? Would they move around away from family and life long friends? Would they go off on their own leaving their herd for a jaunt around the countryside, would foals leave their dams at six months old and go to some strange place? Would they go off somewhere unknown to learn about life and then go 'home' again with their new skills? Would they stand on a podium to earn a treat???
I never had a problem with the word 'dominance' before it was how we use our dominance to use and abuse other animals that I thought was important in the world we have created for horses. However if dominance is bad, to accept this I need to find another world that I can rationalize to be acceptable and denying dominance leaves me without any basic structure to life itself. 

Rambling on a load of rubbish as usual but just trying to explain how directing, asking (and even telling occasionally) horses to do stuff was not inherently bad in my world. Somehow all this discussion has left me with a strong feeling that we are missing vital points about our relationship with horses and what is important to them is being lost amongst us humans arguing about who is better or 'nicer' rather than really looking at what we are doing by domesticating horses and seeing just how completely we are manipulating them in ways that are not in their best interests.


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## mjwilliams (2 August 2010)

"The video" that was shown on UTube was of poor qualitly, The reactions that people have given are of disgust for Parelli and I wonder If they have ever seen any of his work live before, studied the programmes made for the Natual way, or even been blessed with a responsiblity to other people to INVESTIGATE the facts before posting on HH or any othe site. 
I will say this it is everyone's own right to have a opinion, but Dont just agree with some one saying some thing before getting ALL your facts together first.

I truly belive that the way Parelli aproached the situation and worked with cat walk was not doing the horse any harm at all. BUT ........ AND I MEAN BUT !! Parelli should have stopped and put the mic back on and EXPLAINED what he was doing so all this would not be going on right now. But in hindsight that is fine, at the time it was probally not the first thing that came to his mind.

The comments about people going off and doing it them selfs, I am sure there are a few "stupid" people out there that would try this at home. But these are the sort of people that will try anything anyway Parelli or anything.
But the MAJORIRTY of horse owners would have the good sence to ask around/read up/watch tutorials before performing this type of thing on their beloved animal.

Comments about Parelli are wonderfull if given in a fair and educated way, I hate seeing comments from people that have not botherd to read up on the way Parelli work.


I am neither for or agains Parelli, but I do make a uniformed choice as to what is good or bad. I saw no harm come to this horse and as far as im concerned everyone has a opinion, it is your choice as a indervidual to choose what is right or wrong.

Melanie - HORSE OWNER, BREEDER AND TRAINER FOR MANY YEARS 
*I make no appologies for my c**p spelling!*


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## Tinypony (2 August 2010)

mjwilliams said:



"The video" that was shown on UTube was of poor qualitly, The reactions that people have given are of disgust for Parelli and I wonder If they have ever seen any of his work live before, studied the programmes made for the Natual way, or even been blessed with a responsiblity to other people to INVESTIGATE the facts before posting on HH or any othe site. 
I will say this it is everyone's own right to have a opinion, but Dont just agree with some one saying some thing before getting ALL your facts together first.

Comments about Parelli are wonderfull if given in a fair and educated way, I hate seeing comments from people that have not botherd to read up on the way Parelli work.

Melanie - HORSE OWNER, BREEDER AND TRAINER FOR MANY YEARS 
*I make no appologies for my c**p spelling!* 

Click to expand...

That's OK then Melanie, as many of the people making observations here have studied Parelli, maybe even seen Pat Parelli work with horses in person (away from demos), and they do understand how Parelli "works".


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## Gingernut1 (2 August 2010)

Another Pepperoni vid. Apologies if its been posted before. If it wasnt for the poor horse it would be hysterically funny.

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ueprRcH5B4>


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## Gingernut1 (2 August 2010)

Oops can't seem to do live links. If you're interested in watching the video (and IMHO it's well worth watching!) paste, Pat Parelli 1.mp4 into youtube.


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## Shysmum (2 August 2010)

http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/6856085/


simply had to copy and paste this video here - enjoy !    sm x


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## Gingernut1 (2 August 2010)

Thanks Shysmun but this is a different one 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ueprRcH5B4


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## Shysmum (2 August 2010)

bloomin heck - it would help if there was a ramp to start with. Don't get me started tho *sigh*...


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## Gingernut1 (2 August 2010)

If you watch to the end you can see that the horse has hurt itself, it's lame behind. Pepperoni was too busy fawning over the owner and the horse escapes!


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## Shysmum (2 August 2010)

yup, completely horrendous. Utterly stupid, and what the hell is that woman doing ??  A great escape for horse me thinks. *double sigh*


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## Gingernut1 (2 August 2010)

YeahBrilliant bit of horsemanshipStick waving around the horses head, dark rattling trailer with a slippery metal floor and reinforcing that running away is the best optionRun pony run


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## Tinypony (2 August 2010)

That's been posted on this thread before (it's extremely old, Pat P is slender!).  I just wanted to say... come on... the trailer looks a bit rubbish, but - lack of a ramp?  That's not an issue, look at the lovely Bateson trailers with no ramp.  Actually, I find they can be easier for a horse that has problems loading than a trailer with a ramp.


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## My mare (3 August 2010)

I attended the Parelli demo on the Sunday at Stonleigh after five years of saying Parelli was not for me.  I went with an open mind accompanied by a friend who has been a long serving savvy member. Pat did a demo first with a horse who got busy, one of the phases they used but I wasn't convinced it wasn't because the more methods they used the more concerned this horse became but at no point did I think the horse was being treated unfairly or abused.  I sat through the morning demo with my views  and kept my own opinions and thoughts while what seemed like a Sunday morning gospel preaching session was taking place especially when Pat announced they would take over the world after receiving a message of acceptance which Linda forward to him prior to the lunch break. This made me feel a little uncomfortable but I still kept an open mind. 

After lunch I did take on board some tips from Linda's teaching methods which I found interesting and could relate to with the work I had put into my mare for the last five years. This day made me realise that yes time, patience, understanding and a can do attitude is what is needed to succeed in having a great partnership with your horse and that is what exactly I have been doing from the very first day I brought my four year old mare because she was a frightened lost little soul. It has taken this time to build trust in each other learn from our mistakes enjoy the light bulb moments when we can say we did it. I am no expert and didn't own a horse until I hit 37 and find it funny now when people stop and say you didn't buy your first horse until 37 and she was only four. My biggest contribution to my mare was I promised her that I would not stand and let anyone do anything to hurt her and this has resulted in a change of farrier and instructors over time but I can honestly say working from my gut feeling builds our relationship daily so I am glad that I wasn't present at the time this poor horse had it's dignity pulled from him and did come to the conclusion that parelli is not for us.


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## pscott (5 August 2010)

Ive never been a fan of Parrelli, as far as I can see its a lot of circus tricks really and he makes a lot of money out of all the gimmicks and equipment at exorbitant prices!! 
But after seeing this video it has just underlined my concerns with it.  If this continued for two hours and the next day and now the horse is able to be bridled!!!.  Ive always found if you make something difficult for a horse and offer it an easier option it will always take the easier option just like humans!! Surely all that has happened with this horse is the fact it has decided the lesser of the two evils is having a bridle on rather than being tied up and forced into all sorts of horrible positions. Its a sad day, the Parellis have a big petition about Rollkur on there website, what a joke.


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## Tiggerlilly (5 August 2010)

I have never really agreed with any of Parelli's stunts.
For starters, they use those large lunging whips, what part of horsemanship is that? They probably abuse their own horses into doing what they want so they appear fantastic on their shows.
There is someone at my yard, who bought one of Parelli's whips and used it in completly the wrong way. Im sure they are meant as a way of reassurance and a way to get a horse to trust you? Not, to be used to hit the horse so it goes crazy, then try and calm it down.
Also i watched one where they were  waving plastic bags on a stick in a horses face, it was obviously very distressed at this but they carried on for hours and hours.why?
Do they not understand people copy them? ive seen numerous people copy many of their 'stunt's', but not in the correct way.
Natural horsemanship dosent exist, inless your Monty Roberts.


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## zefragile (5 August 2010)

Tiggerlilly said:



			For starters, they use those large lunging whips, what part of horsemanship is that? They probably abuse their own horses into doing what they want so they appear fantastic on their shows.
		
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Steady, there! It's comments like this that turn these threads into pure farce.


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## meandmyself (5 August 2010)

Tiggerlilly said:



			I have never really agreed with any of Parelli's stunts.
For starters, they use those large lunging whips, what part of horsemanship is that? They probably abuse their own horses into doing what they want so they appear fantastic on their shows.
There is someone at my yard, who bought one of Parelli's whips and used it in completly the wrong way. Im sure they are meant as a way of reassurance and a way to get a horse to trust you? Not, to be used to hit the horse so it goes crazy, then try and calm it down.
Also i watched one where they were  waving plastic bags on a stick in a horses face, it was obviously very distressed at this but they carried on for hours and hours.why?
Do they not understand people copy them? ive seen numerous people copy many of their 'stunt's', but not in the correct way.
Natural horsemanship dosent exist, inless your Monty Roberts.
		
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I don't rate Monty Roberts much either. Actually, I'm not a fan of any of the 'Natural Horsemanship' folks. What happened to good common sense?


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## tictactoe (5 August 2010)

I can see how all methods can have there time and place. If knowledgable people use the method they chose to use, or several methods to good purpose then thats fine. What I dont like is people who tell others that the only way to handle a horse is to use parelli, which is what I have heard. Any person that says there is only 1 way is deluded, ignorant, hypnotised or just plain daft in the head.
Some things work for some horses and not others, some people want a quick fix, some are happy to take their time.
But if anyone else walks up to me and tries to make out that their 1 year of parelli work means they know better, and that they hope I will one day see the truth, and that they can just look in to a horses eyes and see the distress then, well poppycock.


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## LucyPriory (5 August 2010)

Gingernut1 said:



			Thanks Shysmun but this is a different one 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ueprRcH5B4

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Ooooh er - that was just magical.  But for all the wrong reasons. :-(


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## better half (7 August 2010)

Parelli is back on H&C.tv


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## Echo Bravo (7 August 2010)

Luckerly cann't get H'c tv thank god, those that can should write in and complain


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## giveitago (9 August 2010)

Yes, 

PP was wrong to use those methods on that horse at this demo. We all agree on that I think. 

However, I cannot completely condem his actions.  It's not the way I would liked it to have been but unfortunately, I'm not experienced or qualified to offer a different solution. Only suggest that I think it could have been done in a kinder way, over a longer period of time.


What I do know, is that for the 1000's of horses in this country, many of them are in pain on a daily basis, wearing back breaking saddles that dont fit, with riders that jab them in the mouth, boot them in the ribs, smack the s''t out of them with crops and whips, hold their heads in funny places with martingales, side reins or 'training aids'. Some are poorly shod, poorly fed or stand in stables 24/7.

Can EVERYONE who has commented on this forum, put hand on heart and GUARANTEE that they have never, ever, done anything to cause pain to a horse....sadly, I cant, even if it was by mistake/uneducated.

Whilst I do not follow a particular type of NH trainer, surely we must admit that the welfare of horses across the world has improved with the introduction of kinder training methods and we are hopefully moving away from the ...if it wont go ...hit it with a crop system.

Those who live in glass houses, shouldnt throw stones!!


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## stencilface (9 August 2010)

LucyPriory said:



			Ooooh er - that was just magical.  But for all the wrong reasons. :-(
		
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  wasn't it just!

What a fool!  I'd go in that trailer just to get away from the stupid man though


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## ester (9 August 2010)

giveitago said:



			Yes, 



What I do know, is that for the 1000's of horses in this country, many of them are in pain on a daily basis, wearing back breaking saddles that dont fit, with riders that jab them in the mouth, boot them in the ribs, smack the s''t out of them with crops and whips, hold their heads in funny places with martingales, side reins or 'training aids'. Some are poorly shod, poorly fed or stand in stables 24/7.

Can EVERYONE who has commented on this forum, put hand on heart and GUARANTEE that they have never, ever, done anything to cause pain to a horse....sadly, I cant, even if it was by mistake/uneducated.
		
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but not 'everyone' on this thread is doing it in front of an audience and therefore extolling the method used to be THE way to do something to many thousands of 'followers'


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## farfromnormal94 (9 August 2011)

It would be great if instead of slashing at Parelli's methods senselessly, some of you took the time it takes to research his methods.  In general, it's pointless to argue against something when you have no idea about how that something works.

The "lungeing whip" is called a Carrot Stick, and when used properly, it is used to act as an extension of your arm.  That way, you can direct the back end of the horse by standing at his nose, etc.

People make mistakes, and much of what you might have seen online could possibly be people abusing the Parelli method.  Pat, himself, is a wonderful horseman (and like any other human being, makes mistakes), but he or his methods should not be judged by his mistakes.


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## quirky (9 August 2011)

This thread is a year old, has been dead and buried (thankfully )
Why resurrect it now ?


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## Naryafluffy (9 August 2011)

quirky said:



			This thread is a year old, has been dead and buried (thankfully )
Why resurrect it now ?
		
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Maybe it's taken a year to read the 177 pages of the thread?
I just went to the last page as I couldn't figure it out either, I vaguely remember it happening last year.


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## NOISYGIRL (9 August 2011)

farfromnormal94 said:



			It would be great if instead of slashing at Parelli's methods senselessly, some of you took the time it takes to research his methods.  In general, it's pointless to argue against something when you have no idea about how that something works.

The "lungeing whip" is called a Carrot Stick, and when used properly, it is used to act as an extension of your arm.  That way, you can direct the back end of the horse by standing at his nose, etc.

People make mistakes, and much of what you might have seen online could possibly be people abusing the Parelli method.  Pat, himself, is a wonderful horseman (and like any other human being, makes mistakes), but he or his methods should not be judged by his mistakes.
		
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Its not PEOPLE abusing the methods its HIM HIMSELF in this case, and his WIFE HERSELF in other cases, this subject has been done to death, I've watched them many times on TV and had a free dvd with something and watched it twice and I still don't get it.  I wouldn't want my horse to canter across the trailer ramp and nearly brake his neck, I just want him to calmly load, which he does because he likes going on OAP trips to the beach lol


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## fburton (9 August 2011)

Since you reopened the can of worms...



farfromnormal94 said:



			It would be great if instead of slashing at Parelli's methods senselessly, some of you took the time it takes to research his methods.  In general, it's pointless to argue against something when you have no idea about how that something works.
		
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I have studied PNH from reading the old Level 1 & 2 packs, have attended demos and other Parelli events, and have discussed PNH with people who were or had been Parelli people. So I don't think you can say I have "no idea". I still don't like it, and I still think it produces some examples of stunningly poor horsemanship (like Linda and Barney, or Pat and Catwalk).




			People make mistakes, and much of what you might have seen online could possibly be people abusing the Parelli method.  Pat, himself, is a wonderful horseman (and like any other human being, makes mistakes), but he or his methods should not be judged by his mistakes.
		
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Do you think Pat made a mistake with Catwalk? Parelli people seem divided on this. Personally, I believe it was a mistake and was appalled by the way Catwalk was treated.

(Some will defend his actions saying extraordinary stuff like the horse is "clearly trying to hurt Pat instead of cooperating"... Good grief!  That was a recent comment here... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gf7w_1ifus)


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## dolly1971 (3 September 2012)

because the parellis are capeable of such horific things makes me very suspicious of the whole thing they have desighned


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## Ladyinred (3 September 2012)

dolly1971 said:



			because the parellis are capeable of such horific things makes me very suspicious of the whole thing they have desighned
		
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Dolly1971, why are you dragging all these very old posts up?? What is your agenda? You have only posted four times and every one is on a 'dead thread'.. are you a troll? You must realise that these are all very heated discussions so why would you want to come here and wind people up?


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## Patterdale (8 March 2013)

Damn these slippery fingers!


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## Ladyinred (8 March 2013)

Patterdale said:



			Damn these slippery fingers!



Click to expand...

Bad person


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## Emilieu (8 March 2013)

Glad you slipped patterdale, I've never seen this one!


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## Patterdale (8 March 2013)

Eye opening, isn't it?


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## RunToEarth (8 March 2013)

Oh, Pats, you just reopened the world's ugliest thread!


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## Patterdale (8 March 2013)

*takes a bow*


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## Emilieu (8 March 2013)

Patterdale said:



			Eye opening, isn't it? 

Click to expand...

I've heard tell of it, very interesting to read it first hand.


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