# First-time Labrador owner



## SAujla (5 September 2019)

I'm looking to get a Labrador soon, I have a few queries if anyone can help:

- Are barking dogs next door a problem, my neighbour has two dogs, which stay primarily in their back garden and have never been taken for a walk for all the years they've had them, whenever anyone steps into our back garden the noise sets them off (I know its not their fault the dogs must be bored out of their minds). Would this be a problem when it comes to training?

- Can I slowly introduce vegetarian dog food with a mind to raise the Lab vegetarian?

- When taking the puppy out for socialising how do I carry her around, in some sort of bag or in my arms?

- Should I avoid getting a dog in the winter months due to the cold weather? I wondered whether its harder to toilet train a puppy in cold weather and as I would be a first-time dog owner I'm not sure about this

All advice on any of these topics would be greatly appreciated


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## GSD Woman (5 September 2019)

I suppose you could raise your dog a vegetarian but it isn't considered ideal. 

Start saving now for foreign body surgery.  Labs are prone to eating anything and everything and it doesn't always pass through or get vomited back up.


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## JennBags (5 September 2019)

Barking dogs will be a huge distraction, yes I think it would affect your training, and as a total novice I don't think I'd recommend getting a dog in those circumstances.  It could hugely upset the puppy, and toilet training would be very difficult.

I wouldn't recommend trying to make a dog vegetarian, they are carnivores and their whole systems are geared to eating meat.  If you don't like this, don't get a dog.

I know people do take their puppy out in their arms for "socialising" but I'm not sure its important.

Why would it be more difficult toilet training a dog in colder weather? More inconvenient possibly, but having a puppy is a huge inconvenience anyway.  It's not easy, it's not always fun and it's lots of hard work and patience. 

Why don't you offer to take your neighbours dogs out instead?  You don't seem to know much about dogs, and this would give you an insight into their behaviour. Would also make their lives happier.


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## Amymay (5 September 2019)

Dogs barking next door will be a problem.

Dogs are not vegetarian, they eat meat - lots of it.

Dogs have legs, and can walk even as a puppy (for short distances)

Itâ€™s much easier to house train from spring onwards.


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## Barton Bounty (5 September 2019)

Making a dog vegetarian ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ no! Ridiculous they would literally not get any nutrients i dont think, dogs are carnivores, puppy training should not take long if you do it correctly. But every day is a learning day with a puppy. They are mischievous, will chew ðŸ˜‚ etc 
I had a golden retriever that ate a plastic patio table and 4 chairs in one afternoon ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ wee bugger 

So yeah they are hard work but very rewarding too.


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## Sandstone1 (5 September 2019)

The dogs next door will be a huge distraction and will very quickly become a problem.
The pup will either become very frightened of them or aggressive with them.
Although dogs can be fed a vegetarian diet its not natural to them and for a growing puppy I wouldn't advise it.
I really don't know why you would think it would need to be carried in a bag.
I think you should think very carefully about this and do a lot more research.


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## Barton Bounty (5 September 2019)

[QUOTE="amymay, post: 14083966, member: 38675"

Dogs have legs, and can walk even as a puppy .[/QUOTE]


This actually made me laugh out loud, so much i had a coughing fit ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


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## Amymay (5 September 2019)

This actually made me laugh out loud, so much i had a coughing fit ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚
		
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Forever here to entertain ðŸ˜€ðŸ˜€ðŸ˜€


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## Barton Bounty (5 September 2019)

Honestly! Too funny ðŸ˜‚


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## Pearlsasinger (5 September 2019)

No a dog isn't and shouldn't be vegetarian, any more than a horse can be a carnivore.

I'm not sure what you think 'socialising' is.  A pup needs to learn to walk along, on its lead, with its owner, ignoring other dogs.  If you want it to learn to play with other dogs, you need to set that up carefully with selected other dogs and their owners in a safe space. Taking your dog to a coffee shop or similar, regularly, is a good way of teaching it to behave quietly around people and their dogs.

Puppies are hard work and inconvenient, we have 2 Lab (12 weeks) pups and I have brought up many pups, many of them Labs, but I am still thinking 'whose bright idea was this?' when I am standing outside in the wind and rain.

Yes the barking dogs next door will probably teach your dog your dog to be noisy.  As someone else suggested, why don't you offer to take them for a walk for your neighbour, which will be good for them and give you rather more experience with dogs than you appear to have now.


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## twiggy2 (5 September 2019)

Dogs can survive on a vegetarian diet, there is vegetarian dog food avaliable, I personally don't agree it is the right diet but there is so much debate on dog diet it can get confusing.
Is there a reason yu would want thw dog vegetarian?
Personally I feed a good dry dog food as a base and then supplement it with raw eggs, oil, fish and raw whole meat (shot locally or fresh road kill) and fish (usually heads from what we catch).
The dogs next door could cause your puppy to be scared of the garden and are house training more difficult, at its best you will end u with a confident barking fence runner too at its worst it could cause fear aggression in your pup.
Before your pup is covered by the vaccinations taking it out in your arms is a good idea, it gets to see the world whilst being and feeling safe, once it can go on the floor then it is best to do that though.
With neighbours dogs like yours I would avoid getting a puppy though and I think the idea of offering to walk those dogs is a good one.


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## Moobli (5 September 2019)

Hi and welcome to dog ownership ðŸ˜Š

To answer your queries :

Barking dogs next door is not ideal, especially as it sounds as though they are out there 24/7 with no exercise or stimulation â˜¹ï¸  If you choose a good breeder though your pup shouldnâ€™t be overly concerned by loud noises and it will be up to you to ensure these dogs donâ€™t scare your pup.  Is there another area you could housetrain in (a front garden for example?) or a quiet corner as far from the neighbour as possible?  Can the neighbours dogs see through your fence or can they just be heard?

I know some people feed their dogs a vegetarian diet but Iâ€™m absolutely against that personally.  Dogs are omnivores so can digest some plant matter but their diets should primarily be meat.

As for socialisation, Iâ€™m assuming you mean carrying your pup before he/she has had her vaccinations?  I carry my pup in my arms to see the big wide world but some people use a bag or sling.  I would avoid meeting strange dogs until your pup is fully vaccinated (unless you know they are fully vaccinated and are friendly to pups) and once vaccinated I teach my dog to ignore other dogs and focus on me but they are allowed to play with friendly dogs I know well.

House training in winter is less pleasant than in summer but it wouldnâ€™t affect the time I bring a puppy home.  Finding the right breeder and litter is most important.

I would advise you buy the book Easy Peasy Puppy Squeezy by Steve Mann, itâ€™s excellent for those new to owning a puppy.

Good luck and remember to come back and share your photos and stories of your new pup.


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## Pearlsasinger (5 September 2019)

I would be very wary of carrying the pup around!  I once got a Lab pup, unplanned in an emergency to 'replace' a dog that had been pts, to keep her sister company.  Pup had not had the full course of vaccines but came with us when I took the 2 yr old dog for a walk, it was winter and I usually wore a scarf.  The pup sucked and chewed the scarf as I walked. 
The pup lived to be 15 and throughout her life she liked to walk along holding my scarf, if she got the chance.  I would hate to have a fully grown Lab trying to climb into my bag.


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## Tinkerbee (5 September 2019)

Sukhpreet Aujla said:



			I'm looking to get a Labrador soon, I have a few queries if anyone can help:

- Are barking dogs next door a problem, my neighbour has two dogs, which stay primarily in their back garden and have never been taken for a walk for all the years they've had them, whenever anyone steps into our back garden the noise sets them off (I know its not their fault the dogs must be bored out of their minds). Would this be a problem when it comes to training?

- Can I slowly introduce vegetarian dog food with a mind to raise the Lab vegetarian?

- When taking the puppy out for socialising how do I carry her around, in some sort of bag or in my arms?

- Should I avoid getting a dog in the winter months due to the cold weather? I wondered whether its harder to toilet train a puppy in cold weather and as I would be a first-time dog owner I'm not sure about this

All advice on any of these topics would be greatly appreciated
		
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I think it will depend on your puppy, obviously if theyre barking every second you are outside then that could be distracting but you can train inside, on walks etc. Our next door neighbours dog is very barky and I worried it would set my new dog off (terriers are prone to be noisy pains in the arse at the best of times...) but he just ignores her, seems to understand its barking at nothing that concerns him.

I have a friend who has a vegan (!) dog, so vegetarian seems an improvement on that. If you can get advice/guidance from a sympathetic vet who can guide you, and make sure its a "complete" dog food it should be doable.

I carried my pup for socialising pre injections, although a lab may get heavy! Once theyve had their second injections walking is fine. 

I wouldn't advise against it necessarily, I got my latest over winter and it didnt bother him, but I was less inclined to stand outside in the dark and drizzle waiting for him to poop, so it depends how committed you are! It was also a bit soul destroying when all our walks Mon-Fri were done in the dark. But equally it did mean I wasnt tempted to over exercise him/drag him on long walks to make the most of the weather.


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## Moobli (5 September 2019)

Pearlsasinger said:



			I would be very wary of carrying the pup around!  I once got a Lab pup, unplanned in an emergency to 'replace' a dog that had been pts, to keep her sister company.  Pup had not had the full course of vaccines but came with us when I took the 2 yr old dog for a walk, it was winter and I usually wore a scarf.  The pup sucked and chewed the scarf as I walked.
The pup lived to be 15 and throughout her life she liked to walk along holding my scarf, if she got the chance.  I would hate to have a fully grown Lab trying to climb into my bag.
		
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Training issue.  Early socialisation is vital in so many breeds.  Iâ€™m not a Labrador expert but my own breed need careful and extensive socialisation so they come out with me from day one.


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## SAujla (5 September 2019)

Thanks for all the replies its very helpful. To answer some of the questions I'm vegetarian but it's not something the dog would have to be, just wanted to ask. 

The dogs next door cannot see and definitely can't get through, just the noise sets them off. It's a couple who live there, one of them doesn't work but goes out occasionally for hours. In terms of taking the dogs out that's unlikely, they've never been taken on a walk so I assume they would be hard to control and we don't have a good relationship with them anyway

I have read that a puppy needs to be socialised between 8-14 weeks but can't be put on the ground until a week after it's second vaccination, that's why I wondered about carrying it around I'm aware a dog has legs as helpful as that answer was


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## Pearlsasinger (5 September 2019)

Moobli said:



			Training issue.  Early socialisation is vital in so many breeds.  Iâ€™m not a Labrador expert but my own breed need careful and extensive socialisation so they come out with me from day one.
		
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I agree that early socialisation is vital, which is why our pups are always introduced to healthy adult dogs  within the family but I see no value in carrying them around unless it is absolutely necessary, they really are not learning anything of value and I want big dogs to know that they should keep all 4 feet on the ground at all times.
We get ours out on a lead at 11 weeks, having waited 7 days post 2nd vaccine.  They are taught lead walking at home prior to that.  I like to take young pups to busy places so that they learn to focus on me and ignore other dogs, I want them to be dog neutral.


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## Pearlsasinger (5 September 2019)

Sukhpreet Aujla said:



			I have read that a puppy needs to be socialised between 8-14 weeks but can't be put on the ground until a week after it's second vaccination, that's why I wondered about carrying it around I'm aware a dog has legs as helpful as that answer was
		
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That can cause problems and is why, if you know someone who has calm, healthy dogs it helps to introduce them prior to the end of the vacc period.  Unfortunately carrying them around won't really socialise them, although you might get strangers asking to stroke them which is not a bad thing.  It's also why, we like to get ours out and about asap after vaccs.


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## Moobli (5 September 2019)

Pearlsasinger said:



			I agree that early socialisation is vital, which is why our pups are always introduced to healthy adult dogs  within the family but I see no value in carrying them around unless it is absolutely necessary, they really are not learning anything of value and I want big dogs to know that they should keep all 4 feet on the ground at all times.
We get ours out on a lead at 11 weeks, having waited 7 days post 2nd vaccine.  They are taught lead walking at home prior to that.  I like to take young pups to busy places so that they learn to focus on me and ignore other dogs, I want them to be dog neutral.
		
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Everyone has their own way of doing things.  I carry my pups to see the world, experience sights, smells, noises etc rather than other dogs.  My pups interact with the dogs at home and I also want them dog neutral out in public so are taught to focus on me and ignore distractions including strange dogs.


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## Tinkerbee (5 September 2019)

Sukhpreet Aujla said:



			Thanks for all the replies its very helpful. To answer some of the questions I'm vegetarian but it's not something the dog would have to be, just wanted to ask.

The dogs next door cannot see and definitely can't get through, just the noise sets them off. It's a couple who live there, one of them doesn't work but goes out occasionally for hours. In terms of taking the dogs out that's unlikely, they've never been taken on a walk so I assume they would be hard to control and we don't have a good relationship with them anyway

I have read that a puppy needs to be socialised between 8-14 weeks but can't be put on the ground until a week after it's second vaccination, that's why I wondered about carrying it around I'm aware a dog has legs as helpful as that answer was
		
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I think for dog to dog socialsing, meeting up with a calm/known to be vaccinated dog is a good plan as they can interact normally/play etc.

However I did find taking the pup out in my arms useful for early experiences of train stations (small local one near us...not Kings Cross...!), busy roads, I took him into town to get a taster for all sorts of people/traffic/prams/wheelchairs whilst still small, but not necessarily overwhelmed being on the ground with everything.


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## dogatemysalad (5 September 2019)

I carried my collie on walks with our other dog before she was fully covered by her jabs. She loved being involved in everything but even a small scrap of a dog is binking heavy to carry. 
I wouldn't make a carnivore eat a vegetarian diet anymore than I would feed sausages to a horse.


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## Umbongo (5 September 2019)

I would see if your preferred vets, dog trainer, behaviourist etc do "pre puppy consultations", so that you can get as much information as possible prior to getting a puppy.

If you get a lab, be prepared for it eating everything, obesity, and possibly requiring foreign body surgeries :/
And do your research into breeders. They can be prone to hip and elbow dysplasia unfortunately 

Have you had dogs before? Have you thought about getting an older rescue dog? Puppies are a lot of work!!!


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## CorvusCorax (5 September 2019)

Dogs can be vegetarian, usually because of a medical issue, but it's far from ideal and I wouldn't recommend it. Most kibbles are inoffensive for veggies.

Carrying is a faff, IMO, but as has been said, imagine being at a pup's eye level around cars exhaust pipes, headlights, people's feet etc, that can all be pretty intimidating. For me, socialisation is teaching the dog to ignore other things, not to go up and meet every other dog in the world.

Toilet training in winter can be a pain in the arse. But it's a pain generally.

As to the next doors dogs, it depends on how you plan to keep your own dog and how you teach it to view the world.
I see plenty of training videos taken at large facilities where you can hear umpteen dogs barking in kennels in the background and the puppies are just working away and ignoring it. I moved to my current home in 2015 and there have always been dogs in one particular rental property behind me, throwing themselves at the fence and barking all day at nothing or going off alarming when I sit outside my back door or go out to put something in the bin. It's a high fence, they can't see me, I am posing no threat whatsoever, they are just insecure.
Neither of my dogs appear to notice, but that's because they are confident and engaged with me, I don't just turf them out in the garden unattended to amuse/make them feel like they have to defend themselves, they are out for a toilet break, leg stretch, play with me or training or whatever. The garden is a fun place where good stuff happens, not somewhere that is constantly under attack from imagined threats.
Use it as a training distraction!
I'm very much for teaching dogs places - this is the place where you relax, this is the place where you work, this is the place where you toilet, etc, etc. Dogs like things to be clear.

These are all good questions and I wish more people would ask!
I would definitely check that your pup comes from several generations of low hip and elbow scored dogs.


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## SAujla (5 September 2019)

I thought I would carry a dog around in outdoor public places and maybe let it on the ground in some pet stores

I have no intention of ever leaving the dog in the garden on its own at any point in its life, I don't know what benefit that would do to anybody.

I've roughly decided that if I don't find a Lab by the start of October then I'll wait until Feb/March next year, winter toilet-training seems to be for more experienced dog owners. I have decided on using 'Bark Busters' for training/

In terms of crate size is the 36 inch or 42 inch more appropriate?


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## Pearlsasinger (5 September 2019)

For an adult lab I would get the largest crate available.

Lab pups get heavy very quickly, ours were 5k at 8 weeks and they wriggle.  IMO dogs are like horses if you bring them up to trust you and be confident, you don't need to 'spook-bust' them for all situations.  Unfortunately very few adult dogs' heads will be much higher than a child's in a buggy, so they just will be in amongst legs and exhaust fumes etc.  

I like to take them to agricultural shows and similar events to socialise them.  You can be pretty sure that all dogs will be on a lead, cars will be moving slowly, if at all and you can head for quiet parts of the showground with them.  Unfortunately there aren't so many similar events at this time of the year.


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## Tinkerbee (5 September 2019)

I found the Ian Dunbar books really good reference. They're quite old now but the crate training and toilet training sections were great, I think we had a total of 2/3 "accidents" and that was me being lazy/watching Netflix..!

https://www.dogstardaily.com/files/BEFORE You Get Your Puppy.pdf 

https://www.dogstardaily.com/files/downloads/AFTER_You_Get_Your_Puppy.pdf 

Take it with a bit of a pinch of salt, I did get a bit hung up on the "you must do x y z by this stage" otherwise your dog will be a delinquent/savage everyone...


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## Pearlsasinger (5 September 2019)

Tinkerbee said:



			I found the Ian Dunbar books really good reference. They're quite old now but the crate training and toilet training sections were great, I think we had a total of 2/3 "accidents" and that was me being lazy/watching Netflix..!

https://www.dogstardaily.com/files/BEFORE You Get Your Puppy.pdf

https://www.dogstardaily.com/files/downloads/AFTER_You_Get_Your_Puppy.pdf

Take it with a bit of a pinch of salt, I did get a bit hung up on the "you must do x y z by this stage" otherwise your dog will be a delinquent/savage everyone... 

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I do like this paragraph:

 Your pup's first month in your home is the most crucial developmental period of his life. This short, make-or-break period pretty much determines whether your puppy will develop into a well-mannered and good-natured companion that will bring joy to your life for many years to come, or whether your puppy will develop numerous, predictable behavior problems and grow up to be fearful and unfriendly. You stand at the crossroads. The course of your prospective puppy's development is in your hands.


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## CorvusCorax (5 September 2019)

Tinkerbee said:



			I found the Ian Dunbar books really good reference. They're quite old now but the crate training and toilet training sections were great, I think we had a total of 2/3 "accidents" and that was me being lazy/watching Netflix..!

https://www.dogstardaily.com/files/BEFORE You Get Your Puppy.pdf 

https://www.dogstardaily.com/files/downloads/AFTER_You_Get_Your_Puppy.pdf 

Take it with a bit of a pinch of salt, I did get a bit hung up on the "you must do x y z by this stage" otherwise your dog will be a delinquent/savage everyone... 

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Lol. If one more person asks me 'at what age should x behaviour be trained and when should I move to y'. 'How long does this take'.

I dunno, I'll get my crystal ball out...or '2000 repetitions, roughly'.


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## Barton Bounty (6 September 2019)

I wouldnt wait to start toilet training, its best to do it while they are really young so you start when you pick up the puppy and youll really need a large or xl crate


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## Aru (6 September 2019)

If you want to feed an animal a vegetarian diet please don't take on an animal that's designed to digest meat. Dogs are not herbivores.It's not fair in the dog to feed them a vegetarian diet Imo and it's incredibly unsuitable for a growing puppy.
Vegetarian and vegan diets are massively controversial,known for causing nutritional deficiencies in canines and are only recommended by vets as a last resort for severe life altering allergies.even the prescription based lab formulated vegetarian diet is  considered less then ideal nutritionally and unsuitable for a growing large breed puppy.


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## Aru (6 September 2019)

Labradors are fabulous dogs though. Very prone to hip and elbow issues so a breeder who scores both of those in the parents is highly recommended. 
And strong recommend pet insurance for the first year or two as eating things and having foreign body removal surgery is very common in the young lab! 
Socialisation advise etc will depend on your local parvo risk...best chat to your vet on that one. 

Can highly recommend Sophia yins puppy book on training and socialisation. Perfect puppy in 7 days or the how to behave so your dog behaves books.  She was a vet behaviourist and very sensible easy to follow advise (now RIPUnfortunately- another great vet lost to suicide)


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## SAujla (6 September 2019)

Feeding the dog vegetarian food isn't a must, I wouldn't be that selfish to impose that diet on a dog just asking the question 

Thanks for the book recommendations, the more I can get the better, sad to hear about the vet suicide, is veterinary known for high suicide rate?


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## CorvusCorax (6 September 2019)

Didn't realise Sophia Yin took her own life  

Her video tutorials are also excellent.


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## Clodagh (6 September 2019)

Sukhpreet Aujla said:



			Feeding the dog vegetarian food isn't a must, I wouldn't be that selfish to impose that diet on a dog just asking the question

Thanks for the book recommendations, the more I can get the better, sad to hear about the vet suicide, is veterinary known for high suicide rate?
		
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As CC said earlier, kibbles are generally inoffensive in their smell, so as a veggie you should be OK handling them.
Vets have a very high suicide rate, sadly.
Good luck with your pup, TBH a good breeder is likely to have a waiting list and I would strongly recommend you get a show bred lab rather than a working one. The workers are very active indeed, we shoot with ours and tbh they exhaust me!
If you can find a good breeder that you like and in an ideal world is not too far away they will help you with any queries you have as the pup grows. If you look now you may be able to reserve a pup for next spring/summer. Be prepared for an interview, it is a sign of responsible breeding.


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## SAujla (6 September 2019)

I've been looking mainly on the pets4homes website and most of the Labs on there are from working dogs, the kennel club website doesn't have any available matching my wishes near me sadly.

I'm was thinking about having the dog in a pen/den area at night, with pee pads out so its not confined to its crate, if I do this should I have a lamp on so it can see but the light isn't too bright?


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## Clodagh (6 September 2019)

Sukhpreet Aujla said:



			I've been looking mainly on the pets4homes website and most of the Labs on there are from working dogs, the kennel club website doesn't have any available matching my wishes near me sadly.
		
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Are you an active person? There are loads of things you can do nowadays with dogs to entertain them and use them in ways that they were bred to do. (But without shooting anything, in a lab's case). My lab's sister is in a pet home but does flyball, for instance. They love sniffing and finding games. When they are young it is wearing them out mentally while not overdoing their joints, once they are adult (over a year) you can do loads of things.


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## SAujla (6 September 2019)

Yes I'm an active person, I would have more than enough time for the puppy tbh I'd have to pay attention more to not over-doing things in terms of wearing the dog out


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## Aru (6 September 2019)

Oh fair enough! Glad your open to a non veg diet.your dog will thnak you for it! 

veterinary has a suicide rate 4 times the national average in the uk...and in multiple countries across the world its scarily high. One every 12 weeks here in oz....bit grim  Not currently a mentally healthy profession at all but no obvious solutions on how to fix it either... when your depressed and things look bleak the euthanasia solution begins to look like a really peaceful way to end your suffering it seems...
Sophia Yins was tragic as she was an incredibly successful vet behavourist whos way of doing things was inspiring,had a big online presence and who seemed to be incredibly sucessful and well adjusted. Theres been a lot of shocking ones recently....

Anyhow depression session over! 
Back to the much more enjoyable puppy chat! 
Op what sort of lab are you looking for?working or show type...are you prepared to wait for the right dog(will likey need to for a good breeder) 
What sort of exercise level are you prepared for?
Has anyone warned you about the shedding lol! 
I love labs and also goldens. Clever easy to please dogs who thrive on having a job... but occasionaly somewhat bonkers as youngsters


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## SAujla (6 September 2019)

I must admit to being very ignorant about vet suicide rates, I never knew it was that high worldwide.

I'm looking for a female yellow Labrador Retriever.
Based on some of the comments above I think a show dog would be easier for me.
I am prepared to wait, I've no intention of rushing into it, not fair to the dog or myself
Exercise level isn't really a concern, the more the better my only worry is about the dogs next door being a problem, but if I can train my dog to not be bothered by this than even better, although I'd mainly prefer to take the dog outside for walks etc rather than limit its exercising to the garden
I've heard lots about the shedding but its natural for this type of dog so not much I would want to do other than clean it up!


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## Clodagh (6 September 2019)

Sukhpreet Aujla said:



			I've been looking mainly on the pets4homes website and most of the Labs on there are from working dogs, the kennel club website doesn't have any available matching my wishes near me sadly.

I'm was thinking about having the dog in a pen/den area at night, with pee pads out so its not confined to its crate, if I do this should I have a lamp on so it can see but the light isn't too bright?
		
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No need for a light, in fact black out blinds are your friend unless you like dawn. Our youngest still gets us up at 5.30 every day. (She is 8 months)
Some working labs are calmer than others, if you look at their pedigree you don't want loads of red type which shows Field Trial winners, as they are very fast and flashy. If you like horses they are the purpose bred racehorses. A show type is more like (hopefully) a nice ploddy cob. Some breeders aim for both the pet and working market. I


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## Pearlsasinger (6 September 2019)

Barton Bounty said:



			I wouldnt wait to start toilet training, its best to do it while they are really young so you start when you pick up the puppy and youll really need a large or xl crate
		
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Why on earth would any-one suggest waiting to start house-training a pup?  Whether you realise it or not, you are training a pup from the second you collect it from the breeder, you just might not be training it to be well-mannered and nice to be around


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## Pearlsasinger (6 September 2019)

Clodagh said:



			No need for a light, in fact black out blinds are your friend unless you like dawn. Our youngest still gets us up at 5.30 every day. (She is 8 months)
Some working labs are calmer than others, if you look at their pedigree you don't want loads of red type which shows Field Trial winners, as they are very fast and flashy. If you like horses they are the purpose bred racehorses. A show type is more like (hopefully) a nice ploddy cob. Some breeders aim for both the pet and working market. I
		
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We have 2 Lab pups who have been the easiest to house-train that I have ever known.  They have a crate together and are reliably dry and clean overnight, from 11.00 pm until 7 .30 am, with no noise.  They did have puppy pads but just ate them so we don't use them any more.  They need darkness to encourage them to rest but do actually have rather good night vision.  Ours are litter sisters but one is more show type and the other more working type by build, with different personalities but neither is particularly quiet.


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## Barton Bounty (6 September 2019)

Pearlsasinger said:



			Why on earth would any-one suggest waiting to start house-training a pup?  Whether you realise it or not, you are training a pup from the second you collect it from the breeder, you just might not be training it to be well-mannered and nice to be around
		
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Ah hum!!!! I did not suggest that!!!!! ðŸ˜¡


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## Pearlsasinger (6 September 2019)

Barton Bounty said:



			Ah hum!!!! I did not suggest that!!!!! ðŸ˜¡
		
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I realise that but you commented on it, so I thought that someone must have done.


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## SAujla (6 September 2019)

I don't think anyone suggested waiting on toilet-training, the question I asked was should I wait until February next year if I haven't found a dog I like by October because I wondered if toilet-training a puppy would be harder in the winter months, especially for a first-time owner


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## Barton Bounty (6 September 2019)

Pearlsasinger said:



			I realise that but you commented on it, so I thought that someone must have done.
		
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They did that why i said they shouldnâ€™t wait lol


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## Pearlsasinger (6 September 2019)

Barton Bounty said:



			They did that why i said they shouldnâ€™t wait lol
		
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Can you point me to that post/link, as I can't find it?  I did see OP's question about would it be better to wait to get a pup in the spring.


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## Clodagh (6 September 2019)

Sukhpreet Aujla said:



			I don't think anyone suggested waiting on toilet-training, the question I asked was should I wait until February next year if I haven't found a dog I like by October because I wondered if toilet-training a puppy would be harder in the winter months, especially for a first-time owner
		
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The advantage of house training in winter is you are not tempted to leave the door open and hope it teaches itself. (They don't). It focusses the mind freezing your butt off and getting soaking wet slippers in January! Seriously I am sure it would be easier in the warm months but our last four were all born in Novemer - January so we have housetrained in the dark and the wet.


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## SAujla (7 September 2019)

I have set myself a deadline of start of October, otherwise I'll wait until Feb. I know puppy training is obviously possible in the winter months but it feels like I'd be making it harder for myself whereas I can wait, carry on doing research and slowly buying some of the stuff I'll need


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## wren123 (10 September 2019)

When you phone about a dog always ask the hip and elbow scores.
Elbows should be 00, and hips can be a combined maximum of 15, the lower the better. Personally I would want scores from each parent of no higher than 4 for each hip, preferably lower.  They also have their eyes tested and these should be clear. 
But I'm not a veterinary professional so I'd be interested in whst others guys of hip scores.


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## SAujla (10 September 2019)

The parents of the dog I have found in questions are clear in terms of eyes, the father has elbow score of 1 and hip of 0-1, the mother has elbow score of 0 and hip score of 3-0. Everything else tested for is clear or unaffected.


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## CorvusCorax (10 September 2019)

wren123 said:



			When you phone about a dog always ask the hip and elbow scores.
Elbows should be 00, and hips can be a combined maximum of 15, the lower the better. Personally I would want scores from each parent of no higher than 4 for each hip, preferably lower.  They also have their eyes tested and these should be clear.
But I'm not a veterinary professional so I'd be interested in whst others guys of hip scores.
		
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The median scores vary between breeds. KC/BVA recommendation for mine, last time I looked, was not to breed from dogs of over 0:0 total of 0 for elbows and total of 11 for hips, with no higher than a score of 4 on either of the hips. 15 would be too high for me and I also place huge importance on elbows. Having said that, I use a completely different system which is slightly easier to understand IMO, it gives grades and a cut off point where you can't breed or compete.


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## Clodagh (10 September 2019)

I would always want 00 from both parents for elbows.


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## SAujla (10 September 2019)

The elbow score of 1 is giving me some pause for thought, I do not want to make things harder for myself by getting a puppy that might have problems simply because I want it now.


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## wren123 (10 September 2019)

Clodagh said:



			I would always want 00 from both parents for elbows.
		
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+1


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## Clodagh (10 September 2019)

If you look back through both parents pedigrees you can look up every elbow score that has been recorded with the KC. It is a long and boring job but I did it for my latest. Her grandfather on one side had a 1 for elbows but I decided to go with it as I like everything else about her breeding. Only time will tell me if that is a gamble I shouldn't have taken.


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## dree (10 September 2019)

wren123 said:



			+1
		
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Clodagh said:



			If you look back through both parents pedigrees you can look up every elbow score that has been recorded with the KC. It is a long and boring job but I did it for my latest. Her grandfather on one side had a 1 for elbows but I decided to go with it as I like everything else about her breeding. Only time will tell me if that is a gamble I shouldn't have taken.
		
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I think you'll find that a score of 1 is excellent, and that very few will have zero scores.  A score of 1 wouldn't bother me at all......I'd be delighted with it.


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## dree (10 September 2019)

CorvusCorax said:



			The median scores vary between breeds. KC/BVA recommendation for mine, last time I looked, was not to breed from dogs of over 0:0 total of 0 for elbows and total of 11 for hips, with no higher than a score of 4 on either of the hips. 15 would be too high for me and I also place huge importance on elbows. Having said that, I use a completely different system which is slightly easier to understand IMO, it gives grades and a cut off point where you can't breed or compete.
		
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I would be very interested to know how many dog have a 0/0 score for elbows.  Please let me know?


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## Moobli (10 September 2019)

dree said:



			I would be very interested to know how many dog have a 0/0 score for elbows.  Please let me know?
		
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Are you getting confused with hip scores maybe?  In my breed (GSDs) almost all breeding dogs have 0 elbows.  My own included.


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## {97702} (10 September 2019)

dree said:



			I would be very interested to know how many dog have a 0/0 score for elbows.  Please let me know?
		
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As you have suggested to another user on another thread, why should we do your donkey work for you? The info is all there on the KC website ðŸ˜ŠðŸ˜Š

â€œJoin the group yourself, Iâ€™m not your lackyâ€ (sic)


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## dree (10 September 2019)

Having trained dogs for 40 years (for obedience) there is loads you can do in the house to train a dog before it does anything outside.  Down, sit, stand, stop, find, etc., etc.  And if you ignore the barking outside, your own pup will eventually ignore them......hopefully.  Won't upset the pup, but obviously the pup will be aware of them.  Could you chuck some treats over the fence to keep them occupied, or would that upset your neighbour?  

I personally do not vaccinate my dogs at all.  Please, please look into vaccines and their side-effects.  If you want to vaccinate, do just the DHP at about 14 weeks of age......this will last a lifetime.  Please do no use Lepto....it is killing dogs, or leaving them with kidney problems, severe fitting, death.


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## dree (10 September 2019)

Moobli said:



			Are you getting confused with hip scores maybe?  In my breed (GSDs) almost all breeding dogs have 0 elbows.  My own included.
		
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No, I used to own GSD's.....many years ago now, but elbow scoring was not common then.  Are you saying that a 0 score is common in a lab for elbows?  Thanks for any info on that.....I honestly would not have thought that a, say, 1/1 score would be a problem?


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## dree (10 September 2019)

Levrier said:



			As you have suggested to another user on another thread, why should we do your donkey work for you? The info is all there on the KC website ðŸ˜ŠðŸ˜Š

â€œJoin the group yourself, Iâ€™m not your lackyâ€ (sic)
		
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Don't worry.....I back up all info with my own research.  Thanks for the awesome reply.


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## CorvusCorax (10 September 2019)

dree said:



			I think you'll find that a score of 1 is excellent, and that very few will have zero scores.  A score of 1 wouldn't bother me at all......I'd be delighted with it.
		
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No it's not excellent and plenty of dogs have 0:0 elbows, including GSDs, hence the recommendation from KC/BVA on breeding on or under the median score.


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## CorvusCorax (10 September 2019)

dree said:



			I would be very interested to know how many dog have a 0/0 score for elbows.  Please let me know?
		
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The KC publishes publishes figures annually, and in the Kennel Gazette


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## {97702} (10 September 2019)

dree said:



			Don't worry.....I back up all info with my own research.  Thanks for the awesome reply. 

Click to expand...

Well why bother asking then? ðŸ˜³ðŸ˜³


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## dree (10 September 2019)

Levrier said:



			Well why bother asking then? ðŸ˜³ðŸ˜³
		
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I've checked the figures, thanks.  In answer to your question, because you seemed to have the answer at your fingertips, but no matter.....all sorted.


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## dree (10 September 2019)

CorvusCorax said:



			The KC publishes publishes figures annually, and in the Kennel Gazette 

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Thank-you....just had a look at the KC site.  Cheers.


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## {97702} (10 September 2019)

dree said:



			I've checked the figures, thanks.  In answer to your question, because you seemed to have the answer at your fingertips, but no matter.....all sorted. 

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Thatâ€™s a very trite and glib reply which actually illustrates that you are purely trolling on this thread ðŸ˜Š I offered no answer whatsoever.... duly reported


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## Amymay (10 September 2019)

Despite advice to the contrary, OP - VACCINATE YOUR DOG


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## SAujla (10 September 2019)

dree said:



			Having trained dogs for 40 years (for obedience) there is loads you can do in the house to train a dog before it does anything outside.  Down, sit, stand, stop, find, etc., etc.  And if you ignore the barking outside, your own pup will eventually ignore them......hopefully.  Won't upset the pup, but obviously the pup will be aware of them.  Could you chuck some treats over the fence to keep them occupied, or would that upset your neighbour? 

I personally do not vaccinate my dogs at all.  Please, please look into vaccines and their side-effects.  If you want to vaccinate, do just the DHP at about 14 weeks of age......this will last a lifetime.  Please do no use Lepto....it is killing dogs, or leaving them with kidney problems, severe fitting, death. 

Click to expand...

I think that it would upset the neighbour, we do not have a great relationship with them tbh and any mention of their dogs would make it worse, if I can train my puppy to ignore them thats more than enough for me

I will be vaccinated my puppy though, it would have its first vaccination anyway and it would feel like a huge risk to myself to not vaccinate them, obviously you do not but you have a lot more experience than myself to know what to do for an unvaccinated dog


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## SAujla (10 September 2019)

amymay said:



			Despite advice to the contrary, OP - VACCINATE YOUR DOG
		
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Yes I will be, I appreciate that it might work for them to not vaccinate their dog and that isn't something I can give an opinion


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## dree (10 September 2019)

Sukhpreet Aujla said:



			Yes I will be, I appreciate that it might work for them to not vaccinate their dog and that isn't something I can give an opinion
		
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As I said, if you want to vaccinate, give DHP only at 14 weeks, but avoid the Lepto jab.  Lepto is rare in this country, and there are more horrendous side-effects than there are cases of Lepto.  Look it up.....seriously....it is a dangerous vaccine.


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## {97702} (10 September 2019)

dree said:



			As I said, if you want to vaccinate, give DHP only at 14 weeks, but avoid the Lepto jab.  Lepto is rare in this country, and there are more horrendous side-effects than there are cases of Lepto.  Look it up.....seriously....it is a dangerous vaccine.
		
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Please donâ€™t spread such total misinformation on social media ðŸ˜³ I live in Gloucestershire and we have numerous recorded cases of lepto in dogs every year (cannot speak for other geographical areas of the country obviously) so I would be spectacularly negligent as a dog owner not to vaccinate my 5 dogs against Lepto....


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## dree (10 September 2019)

Levrier said:



			Thatâ€™s a very trite and glib reply which actually illustrates that you are purely trolling on this thread ðŸ˜Š I offered no answer whatsoever.... duly reported
		
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I am not trolling!!  I simply answered your question!  Blimey, you get slated for not answering and then, when you do answer, you are accured of trolling!!  I would suggest that you're the troll, since you appear wherever I am.


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## {97702} (10 September 2019)

dree said:



			I am not trolling!!  I simply answered your question!  Blimey, you get slated for not answering and then, when you do answer, you are accured of trolling!!  I would suggest that you're the troll, since you appear wherever I am.
		
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Well Iâ€™ve been a member of the forum since 2004.... youâ€™ve been a member since Sunday..... go figure.....


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## dree (10 September 2019)

Levrier said:



			Please donâ€™t spread such total misinformation on social media ðŸ˜³ I live in Gloucestershire and we have numerous recorded cases of lepto in dogs every year (cannot speak for other geographical areas of the country obviously) so I would be spectacularly negligent as a dog owner not to vaccinate my 5 dogs against Lepto....
		
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It is not misinformation at all.  I have studied vaccines for years.  If you go to the Lepto site, where the owner is gathering information to sue the manufacturers, you would then see the horrendous deaths that are occuring due to the Lepto jab.  Lepto jab only lasts a few months anyway, so is a waste of time and a huge risk to take.  Also, as the manufacturers point out themselves, the jab does not stop the dog getting Lepto, just allows it to get a "lesser" version of it....whatever that is.  I am being deadly serious here.  The risks from Lepto (particularly L4) are immense.


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## dree (10 September 2019)

Levrier said:



			Well Iâ€™ve been a member of the forum since 2004.... youâ€™ve been a member since Sunday..... go figure.....
		
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What does it matter how long you've been a member for?


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## {97702} (10 September 2019)

dree said:



			What does it matter how long you've been a member for?
		
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Oh dear..... since you clearly need me to, Iâ€™ll spell it out for you.... there are large numbers of forum users who know very well that Iâ€™m not a troll. There are an increasing number of forum users who think you are a troll due to your repeated offensive/argumentative/confrontational posts.  

I guess youâ€™ll go the same way as the rest and get banned....


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## SAujla (10 September 2019)

I have been reading a lot of conflicting information about the elbow score of 1 and whether its a problem. Some places including the KC website say 1 is okay, but others are adamant that anything above 0 is a problem. Its very clear a elbow score of 2 or 3 is definitely not right but 1 appears to be somewhat uncertain?


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## SAujla (10 September 2019)

Clodagh said:



			If you look back through both parents pedigrees you can look up every elbow score that has been recorded with the KC. It is a long and boring job but I did it for my latest. Her grandfather on one side had a 1 for elbows but I decided to go with it as I like everything else about her breeding. Only time will tell me if that is a gamble I shouldn't have taken.
		
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The pedigree of the sire isn't available as he was imported from Poland, but for the mother its 0 for elbow all the through her lines


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## chaps89 (10 September 2019)

OP, I don't know enough about dogs to offer any advice myself but I wanted to post to say it's really nice to come across someone who is doing their research and preparation before making the commitment of taking a dog on. 
(This isn't supposed to be patronising either, I hope it doesn't come across that way, it's just from experience seeing too many people taking on pets then thinking about it after when by that point it's a bit late as the pet is already home!)


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## CorvusCorax (10 September 2019)

Even if he was from Poland, he should have an export pedigree. But it's likely his ancestors will have had their health tests done under FCI which has a slightly different grading system.

It's up to you...for many people it's not a deal breaker but if you were thinking of anything high impact involving jumping etc, I would certainly give it a lot of thought.


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## SAujla (10 September 2019)

chaps89 said:



			OP, I don't know enough about dogs to offer any advice myself but I wanted to post to say it's really nice to come across someone who is doing their research and preparation before making the commitment of taking a dog on.
(This isn't supposed to be patronising either, I hope it doesn't come across that way, it's just from experience seeing too many people taking on pets then thinking about it after when by that point it's a bit late as the pet is already home!)
		
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It doesn't come across as patronising at all, I have to be able to accept my own ignorance when it comes to dog because I've never had one, the more people I can talk too about them the better, the vast majority of people on here have been very helpful, I've got several books as well which aids the process


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## SAujla (10 September 2019)

CorvusCorax said:



			Even if he was from Poland, he should have an export pedigree. But it's likely his ancestors will have had their health tests done under FCI which has a slightly different grading system.

It's up to you...for many people it's not a deal breaker but if you were thinking of anything high impact involving jumping etc, I would certainly give it a lot of thought.
		
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Not really planning on anything involving extensive jumping, thats why I am going down the show labrador route, jumping and other high impact activities are probably more suited to working Labs?


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## SAujla (10 September 2019)

CorvusCorax said:



			Even if he was from Poland, he should have an export pedigree. But it's likely his ancestors will have had their health tests done under FCI which has a slightly different grading system.

It's up to you...for many people it's not a deal breaker but if you were thinking of anything high impact involving jumping etc, I would certainly give it a lot of thought.
		
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On their website it lists the pedigree line but I cannot click on their names to see their health scores (I can for the mother) I have emailed the breeder about the elbow score anyway it seems foolish not too


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## Goldenstar (11 September 2019)

OP go to the kennel club website and find the list of breeders in your area with litters of puppies .


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## SAujla (11 September 2019)

Goldenstar said:



			OP go to the kennel club website and find the list of breeders in your area with litters of puppies .
		
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I have done that, but there are only 3 Assured Breeders in my area (West Midlands) and none of them having any litters matching what I'm looking for sadly


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## Goldenstar (11 September 2019)

Well wait itâ€™s the best chance you have of getting a good puppy and backup from an experienced breeder .


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## Clodagh (11 September 2019)

Goldenstar said:



			Well wait itâ€™s the best chance you have of getting a good puppy and backup from an experienced breeder .
		
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It's really not. THe KC assured breeders scheme is quality toilet papaer, that's about it.
OP - Champdogs is a good site, and tends to have more show than working.
Also, if you google labrador stud dogs and go through the images for show ones and follow the links you can contact the owners direct, they will know of litters their dog has sired.


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## paisley (11 September 2019)

Sukhpreet Aujla said:



			I'm looking to get a Labrador soon, I have a few queries if anyone can help:

- Are barking dogs next door a problem, my neighbour has two dogs, which stay primarily in their back garden and have never been taken for a walk for all the years they've had them, whenever anyone steps into our back garden the noise sets them off (I know its not their fault the dogs must be bored out of their minds). Would this be a problem when it comes to training?

- Can I slowly introduce vegetarian dog food with a mind to raise the Lab vegetarian?

- When taking the puppy out for socialising how do I carry her around, in some sort of bag or in my arms?

- Should I avoid getting a dog in the winter months due to the cold weather? I wondered whether its harder to toilet train a puppy in cold weather and as I would be a first-time dog owner I'm not sure about this
All advice on any of these topics would be greatly appreciated
		
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No new advice to give thats hasn't been covered, although possibly look at which vets are local to you, visit them, and see which ones make you feel you would be welcomed as an owner.
But I'm really impressed you've taken time and effort to think this through, ask questions and do a bit of research, so well done and good luck!


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## Nettle123 (11 September 2019)

Have you had a look at Jimjoy Labradors?, they are close to the West Midlands. I have had lovely dogs from them as have family members. They are all health tested.


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## SAujla (11 September 2019)

Sukhpreet Aujla said:



			On their website it lists the pedigree line but I cannot click on their names to see their health scores (I can for the mother) I have emailed the breeder about the elbow score anyway it seems foolish not too
		
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The breeder said the elbow score of 1 was probably due to the sire banging his leg around a few times when he was a puppy


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## SAujla (11 September 2019)

Nettle123 said:



			Have you had a look at Jimjoy Labradors?, they are close to the West Midlands. I have had lovely dogs from them as have family members. They are all health tested.
		
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I have now and have emailed them thank you


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## CorvusCorax (11 September 2019)

Sukhpreet Aujla said:



			On their website it lists the pedigree line but I cannot click on their names to see their health scores (I can for the mother) I have emailed the breeder about the elbow score anyway it seems foolish not too
		
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The KC Health checker does not keep records of dogs which are not KC registered, even if they did KC health tests on their foreign pedigree.

I do hear a lot, that higher scores are because of accidental damage, however in my own breed there's always coincidentally a dog or two in the pedigree implicated in high elbow scores  you have to do a lot of damage to effect genetically good hips and elbows, my own dog got his back leg trapped under a book case (don't ask) and was forever throwing himself vertically from a great height when he was a puppy, but his hips and elbows were completely clear at 13 months. An experienced vet, when taking the x-rays, should be able to tell if the dysplasia is genetic or accidental.


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## SAujla (11 September 2019)

CorvusCorax said:



			The KC Health checker does not keep records of dogs which are not KC registered, even if they did KC health tests on their foreign pedigree.

I do hear a lot, that higher scores are because of accidental damage, however in my own breed there's always coincidentally a dog or two in the pedigree implicated in high elbow scores  you have to do a lot of damage to effect genetically good hips and elbows, my own dog got his back leg trapped under a book case (don't ask) and was forever throwing himself vertically from a great height when he was a puppy, but his hips and elbows were completely clear at 13 months. An experienced vet, when taking the x-rays, should be able to tell if the dysplasia is genetic or accidental.
		
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The breeder said it was probably due to the sire banging his leg around a lot when he was a puppy, it is giving me a lot of pause for thought


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## dree (11 September 2019)

dree said:



			It is not misinformation at all.  I have studied vaccines for years.  If you go to the Lepto site, where the owner is gathering information to sue the manufacturers, you would then see the horrendous deaths that are occuring due to the Lepto jab.  Lepto jab only lasts a few months anyway, so is a waste of time and a huge risk to take.  Also, as the manufacturers point out themselves, the jab does not stop the dog getting Lepto, just allows it to get a "lesser" version of it....whatever that is.  I am being deadly serious here.  The risks from Lepto (particularly L4) are immense.
		
Click to expand...


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## dree (11 September 2019)

Levrier said:



			Oh dear..... since you clearly need me to, Iâ€™ll spell it out for you.... there are large numbers of forum users who know very well that Iâ€™m not a troll. There are an increasing number of forum users who think you are a troll due to your repeated offensive/argumentative/confrontational posts. 

I guess youâ€™ll go the same way as the rest and get banned....
		
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And you would like that, since your type of "offensive/argumentative, etc." is so subtle that ppl don't even notice it.  Your type are on every forum and think you are above everyone else.  The snob of offensive posts.


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## dree (11 September 2019)

Goldenstar said:



			Well wait itâ€™s the best chance you have of getting a good puppy and backup from an experienced breeder .
		
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Or get a pup from further away.  We have travelled from Scotand to Plymouth for the right pup.  Be prepared to cast your net a bit wider. x


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## SAujla (11 September 2019)

My concern regarding not getting the puppy the required vaccinations is that I haven't come across anyone else or any Kennel Club Assured Breeder who has said not to get the puppy all the vaccinations he/she requires


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## Clodagh (11 September 2019)

I spoke to a friend who's mum breeds show labs today. She said a 1-0 elbow is not ideal, but not a deal breaker.
Her mum also has a yellow show bitch due to pup next week, pups should be both yellow and black, but mum has retired recently and moved to Ireland. Although she said a pup can be easily transported it is of course more difficult to visit.
She didn't know if there were likely to be any not reserved anyway.


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## Clodagh (11 September 2019)

Sukhpreet Aujla said:



			My concern regarding not getting the puppy the required vaccinations is that I haven't come across anyone else or any Kennel Club Assured Breeder who has said not to get the puppy all the vaccinations he/she requires
		
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Get the vaccinations. I dithered a bit about L4 last year but decided if my dog died of something I could have prevented I could not forgive myself. The chances of the pup dying from the vaccine is absolutely minute and I believe that most deaths have been found to occur in dogs that are already unhealthy. 
Look what the antivaxxers have done for human health...


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## SAujla (11 September 2019)

Clodagh said:



			I spoke to a friend who's mum breeds show labs today. She said a 1-0 elbow is not ideal, but not a deal breaker.
Her mum also has a yellow show bitch due to pup next week, pups should be both yellow and black, but mum has retired recently and moved to Ireland. Although she said a pup can be easily transported it is of course more difficult to visit.
She didn't know if there were likely to be any not reserved anyway.
		
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Thank you very much for asking your mother, I think I will wait to find a puppy with parents who have elbow scores of 0. I know that 1 might be okay and for more experienced people who not what to do and what to look for they will be fine, but this will be my first puppy and I feel like I should be making it as easy as possible for myself, I know raising a puppy is not easy at all but I can certainly help myself but not taking a risk

I think visiting would be difficult to Ireland but I appreciate you asking


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## Moobli (11 September 2019)

Levrier said:



			Please donâ€™t spread such total misinformation on social media ðŸ˜³ I live in Gloucestershire and we have numerous recorded cases of lepto in dogs every year (cannot speak for other geographical areas of the country obviously) so I would be spectacularly negligent as a dog owner not to vaccinate my 5 dogs against Lepto....
		
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I was worried about the L2 and more especially the L4 vaccine after reading various opinions on the internet.  Having spoken to my vet, she confirmed there were confirmed cases of lepto in our area and four dogs had died.  I went with her recommended vaccination schedule and will do so again with my 8 week old pup.

Itâ€™s definitely a controversial subject and everyone should do their own research and make up their own minds.


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## rabatsa (11 September 2019)

My vet told me that living on a farm with fluctuating rat populations vaccinating was essential.


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## SAujla (11 September 2019)

Moobli said:



			I was worried about the L2 and more especially the L4 vaccine after reading various opinions on the internet.  Having spoken to my vet, she confirmed there were confirmed cases of lepto in our area and four dogs had died.  I went with her recommended vaccination schedule and will do so again with my 8 week old pup.

Itâ€™s definitely a controversial subject and everyone should do their own research and make up their own minds.
		
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There isn't any question for me personally, for people more experienced in knowing what a dog does and doesn't need its different I guess. I'm not sure if I can post YouTube links but this video seems apt, although it is for a blood test


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## dree (11 September 2019)

Sukhpreet Aujla said:



			My concern regarding not getting the puppy the required vaccinations is that I haven't come across anyone else or any Kennel Club Assured Breeder who has said not to get the puppy all the vaccinations he/she requires
		
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The people who don't vaccinate complete (natural rearing) are few and far between, although there are far more than you would think.  All of the pups I have bought from breeders have not been vaccinated at my request.  (At 8 weeks old, the pups are still covered by the maternal protection of the mother....so any vaccines are a waste of time, and simply putting chemicals into a young body that is not ready for them.  Many concerned breeders now are more up to date with how vaccines work.....one vaccine at 14 weeks (when mother's immunity has waned) will last at least 7 years.....if not a lifetime.  (Check out Schultz's work.....just google him.)  My pups are allowed to build up their own natural immunity. (Very carefully, let me assure you.)   I understand that this is not for everyone......but one vaccine of DHP at 14 weeks, and then titre test two weeks later to make sure the vaccines have taken.  And no Lepto.  It is the most dangerous vaccine that has ever been given to a dog.


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## Goldenstar (11 September 2019)

Sukhpreet Aujla said:



			The breeder said it was probably due to the sire banging his leg around a lot when he was a puppy, it is giving me a lot of pause for thought
		
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[/QUOTE]

Please be careful


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## SAujla (11 September 2019)

Please be careful[/QUOTE]

I have decided against going with this breeder, I would be arrogant to think I can take the risk given I have never had a dog, for more experienced dog owners maybe its not as big a risk but I would rather wait and find a puppy with 0 elbow scores from its parents


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## dree (11 September 2019)

rabatsa said:



			My vet told me that living on a farm with fluctuating rat populations vaccinating was essential.
		
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There are rats everywhere.  I had rats in my kennels.  I know ratters that are not vaccinated.  Lepto *is* rare......vets always say they have seen dogs with Lepto.....in order to confirm that they would have needed to do an autopsy....which most owners do not want.  And, in fact, most cases of Lepto are in *vaccinated* dogs.  That's something else vets won't tell you.  I've been studying vaccines in dogs for more than 20 years, which is why I won't have my dogs done.  But many people now are just having the one DHP vax at 14-16 weeks, and not having any more than that.  As an example of how my dogs are immune naturally, we had one of them titre tested at 7 years of age.....never, ever vaccinated, and came back with good titres for everything.


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## SAujla (11 September 2019)

dree said:



			The people who don't vaccinate complete (natural rearing) are few and far between, although there are far more than you would think.  All of the pups I have bought from breeders have not been vaccinated at my request.  (At 8 weeks old, the pups are still covered by the maternal protection of the mother....so any vaccines are a waste of time, and simply putting chemicals into a young body that is not ready for them.  Many concerned breeders now are more up to date with how vaccines work.....one vaccine at 14 weeks (when mother's immunity has waned) will last at least 7 years.....if not a lifetime.  (Check out Schultz's work.....just google him.)  My pups are allowed to build up their own natural immunity. (Very carefully, let me assure you.)   I understand that this is not for everyone......but one vaccine of DHP at 14 weeks, and then titre test two weeks later to make sure the vaccines have taken.  And no Lepto.  It is the most dangerous vaccine that has ever been given to a dog.
		
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I have been reading a book about Labs by David Craig, regarding Lepto he says it is not absolutely crucial in certain areas and the vet should advise whether its needed. Someone posted earlier that where they live there have been numerous cases of Lepto reported so it would be foolish for them not to vaccinate against it.


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## dree (11 September 2019)

Moobli said:



			I was worried about the L2 and more especially the L4 vaccine after reading various opinions on the internet.  Having spoken to my vet, she confirmed there were confirmed cases of lepto in our area and four dogs had died.  I went with her recommended vaccination schedule and will do so again with my 8 week old pup.

Itâ€™s definitely a controversial subject and everyone should do their own research and make up their own minds.
		
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The problem is that no-one does any research.  They just assume that their vet knows what they're talking about.  Sadly, vets spout what the vaccine manufacturers tell them.  Merck's testing on Lepto 4 included the death of 2 pups, which they said they didn't know why the pups had died....but it wasn't the vaccine!!  Hello??  Two pups in the testing of a vaccine die, but it's nothing to do with the vaccine?  Are we supposed to just accept that?  Just as we are supposed to accept the growing number of dogs which start fitting soon after the vaccine is given, or fall ill with kidney problems, or are paralysed and eventually put down....or they die anyway.  Don't take my word for it.  I'm not typing this for fun.  It is a dangerous vaccine. Look up Merck, and look up their testing.  How this vaccine passed safe to give to dogs is beyond me.


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## dree (11 September 2019)

Sukhpreet Aujla said:



			I have been reading a book about Labs by David Craig, regarding Lepto he says it is not absolutely crucial in certain areas and the vet should advise whether its needed. Someone posted earlier that where they live there have been numerous cases of Lepto reported so it would be foolish for them not to vaccinate against it.
		
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There is a rat within 10 feet of every person in this country.....you just don't see them.  I've had my (unvaccinated) dogs kill a rat in their run....I had one dog try to present (as in obedience) the rat to me to take.  As much as I was pleased with the present, I was not so happy with the article!!   I did manage to get him to drop it and I could then pick it up in a plastic bag and remove it.  Yuck!!  Btw, Lepto is easily treated with the correct antibioitic....something else vets won't tell you.


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## Dobiegirl (12 September 2019)

dree said:



			There is a rat within 10 feet of every person in this country.....you just don't see them.  I've had my (unvaccinated) dogs kill a rat in their run....I had one dog try to present (as in obedience) the rat to me to take.  As much as I was pleased with the present, I was not so happy with the article!!   I did manage to get him to drop it and I could then pick it up in a plastic bag and remove it.  Yuck!!  Btw, Lepto is easily treated with the correct antibioitic....something else vets won't tell you.
		
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That last line is untrue, having lost a dog to Lepto and he presented sick on a Sunday morning,seen the vet, back Sunday afternoon and he was admitted and he was on everything you could think of but he had to be put down Monday afternoon to stop him from suffering. This was a young 4 1/2 year old dog fit as a fiddle who looked a million dollars and he had first class care yet still died .


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## rabatsa (12 September 2019)

dree said:



			There is a rat within 10 feet of every person in this country.....you just don't see them.  I've had my (unvaccinated) dogs kill a rat in their run....I had one dog try to present (as in obedience) the rat to me to take.  As much as I was pleased with the present, I was not so happy with the article!!   I did manage to get him to drop it and I could then pick it up in a plastic bag and remove it.  Yuck!!  Btw, Lepto is easily treated with the correct antibioitic....something else vets won't tell you.
		
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I personally have know 5 people who got leptospirosis.  Two of them died.  Occupations were farming, electritian, plumber x2 and kennel huntsman.  It MAY be treatable with antibiotics but it still is a KILLER.


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## CorvusCorax (12 September 2019)

Anyone who has a dog that will be going in and out of water would be foolish not to get Lepto vaccination. I'd also be beside myself if there were rats in my kennels, but each to their own...


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## Tinkerbee (13 September 2019)

rabatsa said:



			I personally have know 5 people who got leptospirosis.  Two of them died.  Occupations were farming, electritian, plumber x2 and kennel huntsman.  It MAY be treatable with antibiotics but it still is a KILLER.
		
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Good to see someone say this..! I thought I was going mad, unless human/canine Lepto is different, i'd definitely not call it rare, its on of the main risks of my job!


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## Clodagh (13 September 2019)

dree said:



			I did manage to get him to drop it and I could then pick it up in a plastic bag and remove it.  Yuck!!  Btw, Lepto is easily treated with the correct antibioitic....something else vets won't tell you.
		
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I absolutely acknowledge your right to not vaccinate, but if lepto is no problem at all why did you not want to handle the rat directly from your dog?


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## SAujla (13 September 2019)

Sukhpreet Aujla said:



			I have now and have emailed them thank you
		
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I have talked with Jimjoy Labs more and it seems very promising, another breeder I like is Rossacre Labs but they are quite far away in Plymouth, I'm happy to travel but the closer the more often I can visit.


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## SAujla (13 September 2019)

Clodagh said:



			I absolutely acknowledge your right to not vaccinate, but if lepto is no problem at all why did you not want to handle the rat directly from your dog?
		
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I have done some more research into lepto, and it appears that the vet will recommend whether its needed in the area. However it really does appear necessary for people who live near water, farms or the countryside, everywhere I have looked recommends it highly for those areas and optional for others


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## Pearlsasinger (13 September 2019)

Sukhpreet Aujla said:



			I have done some more research into lepto, and it appears that the vet will recommend whether its needed in the area. However it really does appear necessary for people who live near water, farms or the countryside, everywhere I have looked recommends it highly for those areas and optional for others
		
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TBH, if there is water anywhere near, a Lab will find it!


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## TheresaW (14 September 2019)

Someone at work, their dog got lepto. It did survive, but was a massive vets bill that took months to pay off. Had the dog had the vaccination, insurance would have paid it.

As mine are at the horses with me all the time, and we do walk along rivers and ponds, mine are all covered.


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## Cinnamontoast (14 September 2019)

Absolute anecdote, a colleague got a seemingly healthy pup and is now suing the vet because it died after the vaccs, including Lepto 4.


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## blackcob (14 September 2019)

Mine was, to use the anti-vax vernacular, 'pumped' full of L4 at 8 and 12 weeks and is still hale and hearty despite it. I'd better finish him off with a Bravecto.


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## Amymay (14 September 2019)

Cinnamontoast said:



			Absolute anecdote, a colleague got a seemingly healthy pup and is now suing the vet because it died after the vaccs, including Lepto 4.
		
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Wouldnâ€™t they want to go after the drug company?


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## {97702} (14 September 2019)

There has been more damage done by the anti vaccine lobbyists (and Iâ€™m meaning human, canine etc) than has ever been delivered as benefit â˜¹ï¸

Itâ€™s a shame people want to jump on any old bandwagon nowadays â˜¹ï¸


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## windand rain (14 September 2019)

I always do the initial vaccinations I am not certain  they are necessary annually but again vets advice should be followed. One of the most important things about elbow, and hip problems is to make sure you do not over exercise a young puppy. I bred large breeds (Newfoundlands) the parents  were elbow and hip scored as low risk but one or two pups did get problems as about 2 year olds the problem was that big dogs get big quickly and walking up stairs and walking too far too soon can cause hip displasia and elbow problems which could be where the 1 score on the elbow actually came from. 5 minutes forced exercise (ie lead walking or running around the garden playing with you) per month of age is enough. Walking miles will not tire out your pup but will make it need more and more exercise as it gets older anyway


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## Cinnamontoast (14 September 2019)

amymay said:



			Wouldnâ€™t they want to go after the drug company?
		
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Makes sense! I think she was upset that she hadnâ€™t been warned that there might be issues, as in any medical treatment holds an element of risk, Iâ€™m not saying itâ€™s the fault of the vax, I have not researched anything about this and know nothing about it bar the anecdotes online. She was very emotional when I spoke to her, pup had just died. I donâ€™t know if it came from a reputable breeder.


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## Clodagh (15 September 2019)

Cinnamontoast said:



			Makes sense! I think she was upset that she hadnâ€™t been warned that there might be issues, as in any medical treatment holds an element of risk, Iâ€™m not saying itâ€™s the fault of the vax, I have not researched anything about this and know nothing about it bar the anecdotes online. She was very emotional when I spoke to her, pup had just died. I donâ€™t know if it came from a reputable breeder.
		
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It is very sad.


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## SAujla (15 September 2019)

windand rain said:



			I always do the initial vaccinations I am not certain  they are necessary annually but again vets advice should be followed. One of the most important things about elbow, and hip problems is to make sure you do not over exercise a young puppy. I bred large breeds (Newfoundlands) the parents  were elbow and hip scored as low risk but one or two pups did get problems as about 2 year olds the problem was that big dogs get big quickly and walking up stairs and walking too far too soon can cause hip displasia and elbow problems which could be where the 1 score on the elbow actually came from. 5 minutes forced exercise (ie lead walking or running around the garden playing with you) per month of age is enough. Walking miles will not tire out your pup but will make it need more and more exercise as it gets older anyway
		
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The breeder said the elbow score of 1 was from the sire banging his leg a few times when he was young, whatever they cause I have decided to not go with this sire/breeder, there are some American lines in his pedigree which is something I feel I should probably avoid, especially for my first pup.


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## Evie91 (15 September 2019)

A friend of mine breeds labradors, based in Leicestershire. Dogs are very well looked after, canâ€™t comment on elbow scores etc but maybe worth a look. Called Farseer labradors.
Iâ€™ve never had a pup, my dogs are from a rehoming centre and unwanted pet. A local rescue may also be worth a look, not necessarily for a puppy, but Iâ€™ve seen a few older labradors looking for homes recently.


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## SAujla (15 September 2019)

Evie91 said:



			A friend of mine breeds labradors, based in Leicestershire. Dogs are very well looked after, canâ€™t comment on elbow scores etc but maybe worth a look. Called Farseer labradors.
Iâ€™ve never had a pup, my dogs are from a rehoming centre and unwanted pet. A local rescue may also be worth a look, not necessarily for a puppy, but Iâ€™ve seen a few older labradors looking for homes recently.
		
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Thank you I will have a look at them, I have thought seriously about rehoming a Lab, if I do not find a puppy I like or if the worry about neighbours dogs around a puppy becomes a bigger issue I might go down that path


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## Errin Paddywack (16 September 2019)

You could try Guide Dogs for the Blind.  I belive they sometimes have older dogs needing to retire or young dogs who for whatever reason have failed to make the grade.  Just a thought.


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## SAujla (19 September 2019)

Errin Paddywack said:



			You could try Guide Dogs for the Blind.  I belive they sometimes have older dogs needing to retire or young dogs who for whatever reason have failed to make the grade.  Just a thought.
		
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I thought long about this but did wonder if maybe they are still working dogs which would be better for experienced owners. There is a documentary on Netflix called "Pick of the Litter" about 5 puppies training to be guide dogs, was entertaining and fairly informative


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## rabatsa (20 September 2019)

Errin Paddywack said:



			You could try Guide Dogs for the Blind.  I belive they sometimes have older dogs needing to retire or young dogs who for whatever reason have failed to make the grade.  Just a thought.
		
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If the guide dog rejects are anything like the Hearing dog rejects they will not rehome them to anyone.  Called Fallen Angels many go onto be trained as assistance dogs in another sphere.  Those that are really untrainable can only be rehomed with someone who has walked at least two puppies for them.


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## Pearlsasinger (20 September 2019)

rabatsa said:



			If the guide dog rejects are anything like the Hearing dog rejects they will not rehome them to anyone.  Called Fallen Angels many go onto be trained as assistance dogs in another sphere.  Those that are really untrainable can only be rehomed with someone who has walked at least two puppies for them.
		
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I think those that fail to make the grade often go back to/stay with their puppy walker


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## Clodagh (20 September 2019)

rabatsa said:



			If the guide dog rejects are anything like the Hearing dog rejects they will not rehome them to anyone.  Called Fallen Angels many go onto be trained as assistance dogs in another sphere.  Those that are really untrainable can only be rehomed with someone who has walked at least two puppies for them.
		
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Friends of ours, first time dog owners, got a pup from guide dogs. Well, he was an adult, about 18 months old I think.


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## SAujla (21 September 2019)

I've spoken to a lot of trainers, some say the dogs next door will be an issue others say it will okay but require greater training, general feeling is that it will be problematic which I thought so myself before researching it. 

I have decided that I will approach the neighbours about this, and ask if they can keep their dogs indoors when they do go out for extended periods (they are indoors at night so I know its got to be possible). Not entirely sure what I will say without them taking offence, slight worry that they'll go the other way, refuse to acknowledge the issue and intentionally make things worse but I have to try. Our relationship with them is civil at best which doesn't help


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## wren123 (21 September 2019)

We've always had a few yappy  dogs near us and our labs have always been oblivious to the noise they'll sleep in the sun or play with us or their toys. I'd tread very carefully with your neighbours it might go wrong and end up with them leaving their dogs out longer.
Id probably wait till I got the puppy, see if it's a problem, if it is then go round with a bottle of wine asking them nicely if they can help.


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## Pearlsasinger (21 September 2019)

I wouldn't ask the neighbours to keep their dogs in, so that yours can go out, I can see that going horribly wrong.  I wouldn't be happy to be asked to take responsibility for the training of my neighbours dog.  They presumably are happy to let their dogs bark all day.


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## SAujla (21 September 2019)

Pearlsasinger said:



			I wouldn't ask the neighbours to keep their dogs in, so that yours can go out, I can see that going horribly wrong.  I wouldn't be happy to be asked to take responsibility for the training of my neighbours dog.  They presumably are happy to let their dogs bark all day.
		
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I agree its a delicate situation but my concern is that I cannot see how the constant barking wouldn't be an issue. Currently they have been gone since 9am, still haven't returned and its 7.30pm, this is a regular thing on a Saturday and even opening our back door sets them off. I've thought about waiting and seeing how it is after I get a puppy but that feels equally dicey.


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## Pearlsasinger (21 September 2019)

I would speak to Environmental Health/Dog Warden about the way your neighbours keep their dog, before getting your pup tbh.


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## SAujla (21 September 2019)

Pearlsasinger said:



			I would speak to Environmental Health/Dog Warden about the way your neighbours keep their dog, before getting your pup tbh.
		
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I have before, they said there isn't enough of an issue for them to investigate. Only thing they would consider is noise complaint but as they do not bark continuously but bark when we go out it doesn't qualify, as they are in the patio area it qualifies as shelter as well


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## Pearlsasinger (21 September 2019)

In that case have you got a side/front garden you could let your dog out in, away from the barker?


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## SAujla (21 September 2019)

Pearlsasinger said:



			In that case have you got a side/front garden you could let your dog out in, away from the barker?
		
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No sadly, front garden is all paved and open, for toilet training it should be okay as I have artificial grass right outside our back door (although they are barking now at that but I think they are highly attentive right now), its more when we go deeper into the garden where the natural grass is. The owners still have not returned and its approaching 9.30pm, I do feel very sorry for the dogs they must be distressed and bored, even if they have each other for company


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## Moobli (22 September 2019)

Slightly different but my husband keeps his working collies in kennels in our yard and they usually bark when I go out with my dogs.  Itâ€™s never worried any of my pups, but then mine have come from a breeding kennels with quite a large number of dogs as well as being a boarding kennel so guess they are already desensitised to the noise.  I wonder if you could get a breeder on board by asking them to play CDs of various noises, starting off very quietly and increasing the level over time before your pup comes to you.  I know some breeders do this already, so might be worth a conversation.


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## SAujla (22 September 2019)

I do like that idea, although some breeders I've contacted have said they wouldn't sell me their pups because of the dogs next door, I have to be honest about the situation and its their right to not sell to me I know. 

Update on next door they still aren't back and its Sunday morning now, this is not unusual behaviour but it was raining very heavily last night.


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## splashgirl45 (22 September 2019)

it wouldnt occur to me to worry about dogs barking next door.  if they bark continually when you are in your garden surely you can get something done about it.  if i felt i couldnt go in my garden in the summer as it was spoilt by barking dogs i would expect the council to do something if the neighbours ignored my requests to stop them.   it certainly wouldnt stop me getting a puppy..


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## rabatsa (22 September 2019)

My GSD learnt to ignore the neighbours ridgebacks barking at everything.  She went through a spell of joining in but learnt the phase "next door" meant that it was not her job to bark.


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## SAujla (23 September 2019)

rabatsa said:



			My GSD learnt to ignore the neighbours ridgebacks barking at everything.  She went through a spell of joining in but learnt the phase "next door" meant that it was not her job to bark.
		
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How did you go about achieving this? I have read some focus training tips but I'm keen to hear peoples methods that they've tried and know that they work


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## dree (23 September 2019)

dree said:



			The people who don't vaccinate complete (natural rearing) are few and far between, although there are far more than you would think.  All of the pups I have bought from breeders have not been vaccinated at my request.  (At 8 weeks old, the pups are still covered by the maternal protection of the mother....so any vaccines are a waste of time, and simply putting chemicals into a young body that is not ready for them.  Many concerned breeders now are more up to date with how vaccines work.....one vaccine at 14 weeks (when mother's immunity has waned) will last at least 7 years.....if not a lifetime.  (Check out Schultz's work.....just google him.)  My pups are allowed to build up their own natural immunity. (Very carefully, let me assure you.)   I understand that this is not for everyone......but one vaccine of DHP at 14 weeks, and then titre test two weeks later to make sure the vaccines have taken.  And no Lepto.  It is the most dangerous vaccine that has ever been given to a dog.
		
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Dobiegirl said:



			That last line is untrue, having lost a dog to Lepto and he presented sick on a Sunday morning,seen the vet, back Sunday afternoon and he was admitted and he was on everything you could think of but he had to be put down Monday afternoon to stop him from suffering. This was a young 4 1/2 year old dog fit as a fiddle who looked a million dollars and he had first class care yet still died .
		
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Can I ask if he was vaccinated against Lepto?  And was an autopsy done to confirm Lepto?  I am truly sorry to hear that you lost your dog.  I also wonder why he was sent home if he was so seriously ill?  This is not a criticism of yourself.  But a dog with Lepto would be so seriously ill it could not go back home to be watched by yourself.  Lepto, if treated quickly with the *correct* antibiotic *will* recover.  But if the wrong antibiotics are used, then they will not work.  Again, my deepest sympathies at the loss of your dog.


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## dree (23 September 2019)

Clodagh said:



			I absolutely acknowledge your right to not vaccinate, but if lepto is no problem at all why did you not want to handle the rat directly from your dog?
		
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Because I hate rats!!!


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## dree (23 September 2019)

Pearlsasinger said:



			TBH, if there is water anywhere near, a Lab will find it!
		
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I am aware that this is what the vets are saying......rats, water, blah, blah.  But my dogs go everywhere with me all over the country.  Imo, and it is only my opinion, the dangerous side-effects of the vaccine are more prevalent than the actual disease.  Also, if vaccinated against Lepto, and a dog catches Lepto, the vet will not immediately think Lepto, or treat for Lepto because the dog is vaccinated against it, so they will think it is safe from Lepto.  In fact, if you look into the vaccine, the manufacturers state that the Lepto vaccine does *not *totally protect against the disease......it only gives the dog a lesser affect of the disease.  But it still has it.....but if the vet presumes, because it is vaccinated, that it does not have lepto, then the treatment, which needs to start *immediately* then the dog will become more ill.  The kidneys, etc. will now be affected.  Vets don't see lepto very often (because it is, in fact, very rare) so they will look into other diseases before they start to treat for lepto.  It is a very dangerous vaccines because (a) the side-effects are horrific and (b) the vet will not immediately think lepto, and lepto needs to be treated quickly.


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## dree (23 September 2019)

Cinnamontoast said:



			Absolute anecdote, a colleague got a seemingly healthy pup and is now suing the vet because it died after the vaccs, including Lepto 4.
		
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There are a *lot* of anecdotal reports being sent to Merck due to pups dying after the Lepto jab.  Particularly the Lepto 4, although L2 is a bad vaccine too.  There are also dogs becoming ill with kidney failure, paralysis, epilepsy, death.


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## dree (23 September 2019)

These are the human stats on Lepto.

https://assets.publishing.service.g.../attachment_data/file/637401/hpr2817_zoos.pdf


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## rabatsa (23 September 2019)

Mainly distraction at first.  Puppy attention span was short so easily distracted by a toy or food.


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## dree (23 September 2019)

These are stats for dogs on Lepto.  471 for the last recorded year.  https://assets.publishing.service.g.../attachment_data/file/637401/hpr2817_zoos.pdf

Scroll down and you come to this:- Quote: "Leptospirosis (data from the Leptospira Reference Unit) There were twelve confirmed cases of leptospirosis reported in the second quarter of 2017, compared with seventeen during the second quarter of 2016. Nine of the cases were male (aged 23-56 years, median=30) and three were female (ages 36, 50 and 65 years). Cases were reported from the following regions: London (3 cases), South East (3 cases), West Midlands (2 cases), and one case each from the North West, South West, Yorkshire and the Humber, and Wales. Two cases reported exposure to rats; one case was a farmer with occupational exposure who reported recently cleaning out a shed infested with rats. Water exposure was reported by one case who had been white water rafting in Scotland." Unquote.  So very few human cases of Lepto....which, again, is easily treated.  Not nice, but treatable.

This site is also worth looking at.  http://www.lepto.co.uk/lepto-survey-results


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## Goldenstar (23 September 2019)

Lepto killed by MILâ€™s friends son .


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## dree (23 September 2019)

Goldenstar said:



			Lepto killed by MILâ€™s friends son .
		
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I am so, so sorry.  The figures for human Lepto are so low...I can't say how sorry I am. xxx


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## Clodagh (23 September 2019)

I know I am a champion thread derailer but tbh if OP wanted info as a first time owner she is now just getting pages of antivax. Dree, how about you start an anti vax thread for debate seperate to a more general info stuff on here for the OP?


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## SAujla (23 September 2019)

Clodagh said:



			I know I am a champion thread derailer but tbh if OP wanted info as a first time owner she is now just getting pages of antivax. Dree, how about you start an anti vax thread for debate seperate to a more general info stuff on here for the OP?
		
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Whilst I know I do not own this thread, especially being new to this but I am confused by Dree, I was wondering whether to just ignore but I do not think that will make a difference, time and place for your opinions on vaccinations and lepto I don't think this is it. I'm asking for peoples opinions on Labradors and how to cope with neighbour dogs in general. 

P.S I am a he not a she but lets not get into some gender debate here, although I'm sure lepto sees no gender anyway


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## SAujla (23 September 2019)

rabatsa said:



			Mainly distraction at first.  Puppy attention span was short so easily distracted by a toy or food.
		
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I've read a lot about puppies picking up on body language so I'm assuming I need to make sure I don't show any reaction to the barking so the puppy thinks its nothing to stress about?


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## Clodagh (24 September 2019)

Sukhpreet Aujla said:



			I've read a lot about puppies picking up on body language so I'm assuming I need to make sure I don't show any reaction to the barking so the puppy thinks its nothing to stress about?
		
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Spot on.


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## CorvusCorax (24 September 2019)

If you select a nice calm pup that's half the battle. You give the dog confidence not to worry about trivial things. My two dogs are chalk and cheese personality wise, one was living up a mountain on his own, the other was in a town in a family home in a busy housing estate. Both ignored the shouting going on in the gardens all around them in their new home from day one. They just consider it none of their business.

As before, dogs that go off alarming at nothing all day are generally bored or insecure.


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## SAujla (24 September 2019)

The choosing of the puppy I know is a huge deal, like I do not want the one that is front and centre going for the attention but equally do not want one that is shy or backing away. Its going to require a lot of patience and visits I'm sure, will require a lot of restraint not to visit a puppy litter and then convince myself straight away to get one.

The dogs next door are definitely bored, I don't see how they could be anything else I've never seen them with a ball or any sort of dog toy for that matter.


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## dree (24 September 2019)

Sukhpreet Aujla said:



			Whilst I know I do not own this thread, especially being new to this but I am confused by Dree, I was wondering whether to just ignore but I do not think that will make a difference, time and place for your opinions on vaccinations and lepto I don't think this is it. I'm asking for peoples opinions on Labradors and how to cope with neighbour dogs in general.

P.S I am a he not a she but lets not get into some gender debate here, although I'm sure lepto sees no gender anyway
		
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Fair enough.  But having seen people who just follow what their vet says and then end up with a very ill pup, it's become a bit of a crusade for me to warn people to at the very least look into the Lepto vacc, and see if they actually want or need it.  Won't bother you any more.


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## Clodagh (24 September 2019)

Sukhpreet Aujla said:



			The choosing of the puppy I know is a huge deal, like I do not want the one that is front and centre going for the attention but equally do not want one that is shy or backing away. Its going to require a lot of patience and visits I'm sure, will require a lot of restraint not to visit a puppy litter and then convince myself straight away to get one.

The dogs next door are definitely bored, I don't see how they could be anything else I've never seen them with a ball or any sort of dog toy for that matter.
		
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You may well find that the breeder recommends the right puppy for you. Ours have always recommended ones that they felt would be ideal. When you visit the one you chose last time will be asleep this time, and so on. The breeders may not encourage too many visits anyway, it is all extra work, as in they have to be there. You may be third or fourth on the list as well, so you get to pick from the ones that are left. As long as the bitch is confident and friendly I would go on that, more than what the puppies are doing.


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## Dobiegirl (24 September 2019)

dree said:



			Can I ask if he was vaccinated against Lepto?  And was an autopsy done to confirm Lepto?  I am truly sorry to hear that you lost your dog.  I also wonder why he was sent home if he was so seriously ill?  This is not a criticism of yourself.  But a dog with Lepto would be so seriously ill it could not go back home to be watched by yourself.  Lepto, if treated quickly with the *correct* antibiotic *will* recover.  But if the wrong antibiotics are used, then they will not work.  Again, my deepest sympathies at the loss of your dog.
		
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Yes he was vaccinated but as you may or  may not know there are many strains not covered by the vaccine and my vet said he had only seen one case like this in 30years of practice. He was sent home initially because they didnt think it was Lepto as he was vaccinated, they tested for parvo which he was innoculated for and that was negative. They thought initially gastro and he had injections and was sent home with tablets. As I said he started to deteriorate and coughed up a significant amount of blood and I took him back at 3pm where they kept him in. The head vet rang me the next morning, he said they were treating it as a rare strain of  Lepto and it was pointless taking a sample and sending it off because the results would take 3 days to get back. He rang me in the afternoon to say he had deteriorated again and they wanted to pts to save further suffering, I went straight there. He was in an isolation unit and they didnt want me to touch him because of Weils disease but I spoke to him and he lifted his head to look at me and then flopped it back down. I held his paw and spoke to him when they pts, he was just so weak he slipped away. I couldnt even have his collar and obviously they wouldnt let me take him home to bury him. I didnt have an autopsy done, it was pointless.

One of my best friends is a vet nurse and I showed her the Invoice with all the meds on and she said they had given him the right abs as I was questioning whether he had been given the right abs, she is not in anyway connected to this practice.


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## dree (24 September 2019)

Dobiegirl said:



			Yes he was vaccinated but as you may or  may not know there are many strains not covered by the vaccine and my vet said he had only seen one case like this in 30years of practice. He was sent home initially because they didnt think it was Lepto as he was vaccinated, they tested for parvo which he was innoculated for and that was negative. They thought initially gastro and he had injections and was sent home with tablets. As I said he started to deteriorate and coughed up a significant amount of blood and I took him back at 3pm where they kept him in. The head vet rang me the next morning, he said they were treating it as a rare strain of  Lepto and it was pointless taking a sample and sending it off because the results would take 3 days to get back. He rang me in the afternoon to say he had deteriorated again and they wanted to pts to save further suffering, I went straight there. He was in an isolation unit and they didnt want me to touch him because of Weils disease but I spoke to him and he lifted his head to look at me and then flopped it back down. I held his paw and spoke to him when they pts, he was just so weak he slipped away. I couldnt even have his collar and obviously they wouldnt let me take him home to bury him. I didnt have an autopsy done, it was pointless.

One of my best friends is a vet nurse and I showed her the Invoice with all the meds on and she said they had given him the right abs as I was questioning whether he had been given the right abs, she is not in anyway connected to this practice.
		
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The main point in your post was that they did NOT suspect Lepto because he was vaccinated.  This is one of the danger points when you have a dog vaccinated against Lepto.  There are only three main strains of Lepto in this country.....a "rare" strain is their "get out" clause.  If they had treated him straight away, he would have had a chance......but going home and then going back....it has to be given quickly.  Sadly, this proves my point that vets rule out Lepto if a dog is vaccinated against it.  Many, many cases of Lepto are from the vaccine itself.  And the vaccine manufacturers themselves state that the vaccines does NOT protect against Lepto.....the dog gets a "milder" form......but if not treated quickly that "milder" form will still cause death.  Again, my sincere condolences on your loss.


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## CorvusCorax (24 September 2019)

Oh the irony. I'm currently lodging next door to a pair of yappy little feckers. My dog isn't batting an eyelid. I, on the other hand....


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## Dobiegirl (24 September 2019)

dree said:



			The main point in your post was that they did NOT suspect Lepto because he was vaccinated.  This is one of the danger points when you have a dog vaccinated against Lepto.  There are only three main strains of Lepto in this country.....a "rare" strain is their "get out" clause.  If they had treated him straight away, he would have had a chance......but going home and then going back....it has to be given quickly.  Sadly, this proves my point that vets rule out Lepto if a dog is vaccinated against it.  Many, many cases of Lepto are from the vaccine itself.  And the vaccine manufacturers themselves state that the vaccines does NOT protect against Lepto.....the dog gets a "milder" form......but if not treated quickly that "milder" form will still cause death.  Again, my sincere condolences on your loss. 

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My dog was seen Sunday morning and was pts Monday afternoon, I cant help thinking you are twisting the facts for your own ends. It was a really hot summer so no standing water anywhere, my dog had not been in the river and had not killed any rats or been anywhere near any. He didnt have a temperature or any muscle stiffness so no reason for the vet to suspect Lepto initially, as for a rare strain being their get our clause is fanciful at best. I just hope someone like Aru who is a member on here and a vet can comment and correct some of your comments. You are anti vaccine I get that but you cant go twisting things to prove your point. The vet didnt mention because he was vaccinated against Lepto they were ruling it out, if you look it up he wasnt displaying Lepto symptoms.


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## dree (24 September 2019)

Dobiegirl said:



			My dog was seen Sunday morning and was pts Monday afternoon, I cant help thinking you are twisting the facts for your own ends. It was a really hot summer so no standing water anywhere, my dog had not been in the river and had not killed any rats or been anywhere near any. He didnt have a temperature or any muscle stiffness so no reason for the vet to suspect Lepto initially, as for a rare strain being their get our clause is fanciful at best. I just hope someone like Aru who is a member on here and a vet can comment and correct some of your comments. You are anti vaccine I get that but you cant go twisting things to prove your point. The vet didnt mention because he was vaccinated against Lepto they were ruling it out, if you look it up he wasnt displaying Lepto symptoms.
		
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If you look up Lepto symptoms, some can be very vague.....particulary in vaccinated dogs, as the lepto is not so severe....therefore is not treated quick enough.  I shall be interested in a vet disagreeing with the actual manufacturer.

Again, sorry for your loss.  No-one likes to lose a young dog.


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## Tiddlypom (24 September 2019)

Dree, please take the advice given to bog off and start your own anti vaxxing thread if you must. Do not further hi jack this one.


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## CorvusCorax (24 September 2019)

So, there's this thing called 'reading the mood in the room'.....


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## dree (24 September 2019)

Tiddlypom said:



			Dree, please take the advice given to bog off and start your own anti vaxxing thread if you must. Do not further hi jack this one.
		
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I had already decided not to.....see my post saying that people should think about vaccines before buying a pup.  And I felt that Dobiegirl deserved a response.


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## SAujla (24 September 2019)

Clodagh said:



			You may well find that the breeder recommends the right puppy for you. Ours have always recommended ones that they felt would be ideal. When you visit the one you chose last time will be asleep this time, and so on. The breeders may not encourage too many visits anyway, it is all extra work, as in they have to be there. You may be third or fourth on the list as well, so you get to pick from the ones that are left. As long as the bitch is confident and friendly I would go on that, more than what the puppies are doing.
		
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The advice on the bitch makes sense, I've been reading a lot about puppy farming and how to avoid them and one of the ways was to see how the bitch interacts with what should be her litter, as long as the parents are both of the "show" variety I think that's a good starting point. The more I read about puppy farming the more wary I am of all breeders, apparently Wales is the hub of puppy farming and the one puppy I have come very close to was from Wales, I declined because the sire had elbow score of 1 but it does stick in my mind (I know this doesn't mean all breeders in Wales are puppy farmers obviously).

Regarding Dree and the lepto, you are obviously passionate about animals lepto vaccinations etc but have some respect for what I am trying to do here, if you felt someone deserved a response that you had to give I'm sure you can message them privately. If you are on a crusade to warn people about it then start your own thread, you have that option and that will obviously get your message out to more people rather than continuously posting in a thread labelled "First-time Labrador owner".


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## Pearlsasinger (26 September 2019)

OP, can I point out, that contrary to at least one post on your thread, when you get your pup you will be training it all the time, whether you intend to do so or not.  Every interaction will teach your pup something about you and your expectations.  

I, personally, don't like to have a single dog but if you do, it will be dependent on you for companionship, as well as for meeting  all its other basic needs.  Labs, especially show-bred ones, generally are lovely, relatively easy dogs who make super family pets.  You have made a good choice of breed.


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## SAujla (26 September 2019)

Pearlsasinger said:



			OP, can I point out, that contrary to at least one post on your thread, when you get your pup you will be training it all the time, whether you intend to do so or not.  Every interaction will teach your pup something about you and your expectations. 

I, personally, don't like to have a single dog but if you do, it will be dependent on you for companionship, as well as for meeting  all its other basic needs.  Labs, especially show-bred ones, generally are lovely, relatively easy dogs who make super family pets.  You have made a good choice of breed.
		
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Was it a post by myself? Training is an everyday thing to do I thought so I should not have said anything to the contradict that, I am looking for help from a professional dog trainer but not to do the work for me.

I personally feel going from zero dogs to two in one go would be way too much, with one I can give it 100% of my attention. Companionship won't be an issue, preventing separation anxiety will be a bigger concern. I've always loved Labradors so I'm lucky that particular breed is ideal for a first dog, although I wasn't aware of the difference between working and show Labradors until I started researching them.


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## Pearlsasinger (26 September 2019)

Sukhpreet Aujla said:



			Was it a post by myself? Training is an everyday thing to do I thought so I should not have said anything to the contradict that, I am looking for help from a professional dog trainer but not to do the work for me.

I personally feel going from zero dogs to two in one go would be way too much, with one I can give it 100% of my attention. Companionship won't be an issue, preventing separation anxiety will be a bigger concern. I've always loved Labradors so I'm lucky that particular breed is ideal for a first dog, although I wasn't aware of the difference between working and show Labradors until I started researching them.
		
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No it wasn't one of your posts.  The point I was trying to make is that  'training'  is something that you do all the time with your dog, especially with a pup.  You can't just train it at specific times and let it do as it pleases, or even worse leave it in a crate,the rest of the time. Every interaction you have with your dog should consistently reinforce your expectations of normal, everyday behaviour.  Of course if you decide to work your dog or do agility classes or something that would need specific training when the pup is older.

By the way, I am not against crate training, my 2 pups are having a rest in their crate with door shut atm, but I am against leaving them in there for most of the time.


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## SAujla (26 September 2019)

Okay that makes sense, I always thought of training as something fun to do and help create a bond with the dog anyway so I'm expecting to do it everyday. Also I assume the training needs constant reinforcing as the dog goes from puppy to adult picks up new habits and learns more.

I only want my dog in a crate overnight, in the day I will leave try to the dog alone in a playpen area and try to help it be okay on its own for a while, probably starting with 10 minutes alone building it up slowly. I work in the evenings and my parents can help out then so in theory the dog could never be on its own, but I still want it to be okay alone should it need to happen.


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## Pearlsasinger (26 September 2019)

Yes, I think dogs should be able to be left if necessary, although we never leave ours completely alone - they ahve t least one other dog for company.
What I mean by constant training is that you, for instance will need to train the dog not to launch into its food dish when you feed it - so teach it to 'wait' or 'sit', as part of its normal routine.  You won't want an adult Labrador jumping up you, so teach it 'down' or 'off', in the moment that it happens.  A Lab pup will pick up and attempt to chew all sorts of things around the house, electrical leads seem to be a favourite, so you will need to train the dog to 'Leave' or 'drop' it.  You won't need to set those situations up and you can't wait until you have set something up, you will have to respond to the pup as it explores its surroundings.  Training is constant because if you ignore any behaviour the pup will think that it's acceptable and expect to be able to continue to behave that way


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## SAujla (26 September 2019)

I thought about hand-feeding a puppy initially just so I can slow down how quickly she eats and close my hand over the food if shes getting overzealous and biting/chomping at it to much (maybe wear gloves for this if I try it) and only release my hand to the food when the dog understands the calmer the better. I'm not going to purposely set things up I'd rather have situations occur organically rather than manipulating them like you suggested. 

The more suggestions the better!


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## Amymay (26 September 2019)

I, personally wouldnâ€™t hand feed.  Thereâ€™s just no need. And just created a fussy dog.


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## CorvusCorax (26 September 2019)

It depends what you want. Both of mine were hand fed their own kibble as pups. It makes for a good work ethic, but it's not everyone's cup of tea.


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## TheresaW (26 September 2019)

We hand fed Luna. A couple of weeks after bringing her home, we noticed if we walked too close to her whilst she was eating, she would get quite aggressive. We would be just be walking past to get to somewhere. A couple of weeks of hand feeding, and now she takes no notice.


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## {97702} (26 September 2019)

I personally would never hand feed, Ive never seen any need.  But then I donâ€™t give my dogs treats so.....ðŸ™„


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## Clodagh (26 September 2019)

Sukhpreet Aujla said:



			I thought about hand-feeding a puppy initially just so I can slow down how quickly she eats and close my hand over the food if shes getting overzealous and biting/chomping at it to much (maybe wear gloves for this if I try it) and only release my hand to the food when the dog understands the calmer the better. I'm not going to purposely set things up I'd rather have situations occur organically rather than manipulating them like you suggested.

The more suggestions the better!
		
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I wouldn't do that, I tend not to treat (although not as vehemently as Levrier!) but I think every meal time will become a fight and it will be hard to stay calm while a hungry lab pup tries to eat your hand. If you asre worried about them eating too fast get a bowl designed to slow it. We just let them get on with it.
I also don't agree with PAS saying a dog should never be left completely alone, it does them no harm, although for a young pup an hour is quite long enough. As pups, as we only ever have one pup at a time, when the older dogs are walked the pup just sleeps in her cage. Overnight the pup is caged in the kitchen and the others sleep in other rooms.


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## Goldenstar (26 September 2019)

The only dog I would hand feed is one with poor recall .
I canâ€™t see why you would this to a puppy 

I have also hand fed old dogs thatâ€™s a sad time


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## Pearlsasinger (26 September 2019)

Sukhpreet Aujla said:



			I thought about hand-feeding a puppy initially just so I can slow down how quickly she eats and close my hand over the food if shes getting overzealous and biting/chomping at it to much (maybe wear gloves for this if I try it) and only release my hand to the food when the dog understands the calmer the better. I'm not going to purposely set things up I'd rather have situations occur organically rather than manipulating them like you suggested.

The more suggestions the better!
		
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I wouldn't, they don't  normally guzzle food down in an unhealthy way and you could be causing frustration behaviour.  You won't be feeding a young pup very much at each meal - they need 4 meals per day.

Incidentally , Clodagh, I didn't say dogs shouldn't be left alone.  this is what I said;

Yes, I think dogs should be able to be left if necessary, although we never leave ours completely alone - they have at least one other dog for company.
Read more at https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/...rador-owner.779957/page-7#KT1Bp630WcV8kVVm.99


Each to their own.


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## CorvusCorax (26 September 2019)

To elaborate, when I talk about 'hand feeding' I would deliver the dog's nornal meal allowance (not treats) through training sessions. It's good for shaping behaviours. Like I said, not for everyone but it is good for certain breeds and disciplines.


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## SAujla (26 September 2019)

This is all very interesting, hand-feeding was something I read in a book but its good to hear what people think, its certainly not something I'm looking at doing long term, no longer than a week really after getting the pup. 

For those who don't give treats did you still use treats for toilet-training initially? For those who do give treats how do you substitute the calories from the treats from their main meals to ensure you don't overfeed? There are many differing opinions but Labradors being super eager to eat is the one everyone agrees on


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## CorvusCorax (26 September 2019)

As I said I don't use treats, I use the dog's daily allowance of food. Weigh it out and keep one meal allowance in a container for example so you know what the dog is getting every day. Once one meal allowance is gone (through sit....down...stay...etc) ten minutes and you've trained your dog and fed it the food it needs to be able to grow. Hot dogs aren't good nutrition for a growing dog.
Then later, if you hit a training problem, you can upgrade to the good stuff.

When I got my second dog, he was a mature adult and he knew me from a pup, but I still fed him from my pockets out on a walk for the first few months for things like coming back quickly, checking in/paying attention etc. It can be the same with a puppy. 
So, food is life, Sukhpreet is food! If you want to go that route. Toilet = bit of kibble from the allowance.

It just means foregoing an extra coffee or missing ten minutes of your favourite show, but for me it's worth it.

Buuut again, for some people it's a bit too much of a faff and I totally understand that.


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## Pearlsasinger (26 September 2019)

Sukhpreet Aujla said:



			This is all very interesting, hand-feeding was something I read in a book but its good to hear what people think, its certainly not something I'm looking at doing long term, no longer than a week really after getting the pup.

For those who don't give treats did you still use treats for toilet-training initially? For those who do give treats how do you substitute the calories from the treats from their main meals to ensure you don't overfeed? There are many differing opinions but Labradors being super eager to eat is the one everyone agrees on
		
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We use treats as rewards, we feed tinned meat, I am not prepared to put that in my pocket!  We simply don't give as much food at mealtimes, as we would if we didn't feed treats.  Monitor the dog's weight, either by weighing or by eye and adjust the food accordingly.  I don't understand CC's point about missing 10 minutes of your favourite show.  I take time to feed my dogs and to take them on walks/play with them etc and give treats during that time for doing as asked.
I will say though, that every dog is different and you will find what works for you and your dog.


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## CorvusCorax (26 September 2019)

Well, obviously hand feeding only really works with kibble 
My point was when puppies can't go for walks yet, need regular feeds and don't have a huge concentration span, you can get all their food allowance into them and some training done in a few short sessions per day. You'd be surprised how many people think that dogs train themselves or that they 'don't have time to train'.
It may or may not be a road the OP wants to go down, I just wanted to clarify my own definition of hand feeding, as it appears there are several interpretations on this thread.


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## wren123 (26 September 2019)

Thanks @CorvusCorax  that's interesting.
Although OP most show labs are very food orientated, making them very easy to train.


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## Pearlsasinger (27 September 2019)

CorvusCorax said:



			Well, obviously hand feeding only really works with kibble 
My point was when puppies can't go for walks yet, need regular feeds and don't have a huge concentration span, you can get all their food allowance into them and some training done in a few short sessions per day. You'd be surprised how many people think that dogs train themselves or that they 'don't have time to train'.
It may or may not be a road the OP wants to go down, I just wanted to clarify my own definition of hand feeding, as it appears there are several interpretations on this thread.
		
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The thing that often astounds me is that some people seem to think that training takes place in 'sessions', rather than as an integral part of a puppy's life.  We teach ours to 'sit' while waiting for their food dishes to be put down, to 'sit' while waiting for the others to finish eating, to come to us when called, to co-operate with having a harness put on, etc, etc.  There is a lot for a small pup to learn in order to become a pleasant member of the family.  You can't teach that in a few 10 minute sessions, so training happens all the time, every time the pup is awake.

CC, I know you are training for a particular purpose, so, of course, your training is done in sessions, interspersed with life.


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## Clodagh (27 September 2019)

Pearlsasinger said:



			Yes, I think dogs should be able to be left if necessary, although we never leave ours completely alone
		
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Surely means you don't ever teach yours to be alone?


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## {97702} (27 September 2019)

All of my dogs are rescues so it has been quite a few years since I had a puppy, but since they have come from a kennel environment they do also need to be house trained/toilet trained using the same techniques.

No, Iâ€™ve never used treats for this ðŸ˜Š Their â€˜rewardâ€™ is effusive praise, this has always worked fine for me ðŸ˜Š


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## CorvusCorax (27 September 2019)

It's also handy for people who work/consider themselves time poor. As with everything, it's horses for courses.


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## Clodagh (27 September 2019)

Levrier said:



			No, Iâ€™ve never used treats for this ðŸ˜Š Their â€˜rewardâ€™ is effusive praise, this has always worked fine for me ðŸ˜Š
		
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I've never used treats for toilet training especially, labradors soon learn to ask to go out so they can get a biscuit. They can even bob their bum down if it they think it helps the cause! I use them a bit with recall as it does give that more instant response, rather than 'Yeah, yeah, I'll be there when I've finished what I'm doing'.  Trouble is, overdo it and they just glue themselves to your side so you can't teach recall as they won't go away to start with.


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## Pearlsasinger (27 September 2019)

We are currently using treats to teach walking to heel.  We find that Labs are usually easy to house-train, as were the Rotters without treats.

Clodagh which part of 'I think dogs should be able to be left alone if necessary' is ambiguous?  I didn't say that they should be alone all the time and ours aren't left alone as a matter of course but they can be if necessary.  I hope that makes my post clearer for you.


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## paisley (27 September 2019)

As training a dog tends to rely on the dog connecting a wanted behaviour to its personal high value reward, here's wishing someone could bottle 'chasing a rabbit' to persuade skinny dogs to park their bony little bums for more than a nanosecond!


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## Moobli (27 September 2019)

Hand feeding can be really useful for building trust, especially with a fearful dog or pup.


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## Moobli (27 September 2019)

As for using food rewards, I always have small treats and a portion of my pupâ€™s kibble on me and reward for all the behaviour I want to reinforce as I see it happen.  This is as well as short, fun sessions where we concentrate on a particular cue throughout the day.


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## Clodagh (27 September 2019)

Ffee can be a bit headstrong on her walk, and has a lovely time self rewarding (just eatinbg rubbish and going too far ahead, she doesn't do anything too awful). I just took a pocket full of kibble and she was a lot better, she didn't cling but every time she checked in I gave her a biscuit. The other three all walked to heel the whole way though, so not ideal. I do train her on her own but day to day stuff tends to be done in a group. Now the pheasants are here I have less time to do too much apart.


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## {97702} (27 September 2019)

paisley said:



			As training a dog tends to rely on tnhe dog connecting a wanted behaviour to its personal high value reward, here's wishing someone could bottle 'chasing a rabbit' to persuade skinny dogs to park their bony little bums for more than a nanosecond! 

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You could try dangling a squirrel in front of him?  That always transfixes my lot, they stand underneath the tree with their mouths open just WILLING the squirrel to fall out..... it never has 

I was thinking on my drive home from work today and I remembered that the reason I don't give my dogs treats goes back to the days of taking them to street collections for greyhound charities where inevitably everyone wants to give them a treat.... and Amy used to helpfully vomit all over the back of the car on the way home every single time....  I knew there was a reason, it kind of put me off the idea of treats altogether


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## paisley (29 September 2019)

Levrier said:



			You could try dangling a squirrel in front of him?  That always transfixes my lot, they stand underneath the tree with their mouths open just WILLING the squirrel to fall out..... it never has 

I was thinking on my drive home from work today and I remembered that the reason I don't give my dogs treats goes back to the days of taking them to street collections for greyhound charities where inevitably everyone wants to give them a treat.... and Amy used to helpfully vomit all over the back of the car on the way home every single time....  I knew there was a reason, it kind of put me off the idea of treats altogether 

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Everyone knows squirrels fall out of trees if you stare at them for long enough .
Food rewards just never worked for the whippet, not even raw liver held his interest for more than a day. And I quite like the cuddles he gives knowing its not working towards scrounging for a biscuit


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## fankino04 (2 October 2019)

Sukhpreet Aujla said:



			I thought about hand-feeding a puppy initially just so I can slow down how quickly she eats and close my hand over the food if shes getting overzealous and biting/chomping at it to much (maybe wear gloves for this if I try it) and only release my hand to the food when the dog understands the calmer the better. I'm not going to purposely set things up I'd rather have situations occur organically rather than manipulating them like you suggested.

The more suggestions the better!
		
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Hi, I have just done an online dog trainer course (not to be a trainer but just to say I have had the training when talking to new dog walking clients lol), the first few modules probably aren't that relevant to the average dog owner but the last 2 had some really good ideas about how to bring up a confident well adjusted dog and a problem solving section for how to handle things if it goes wrong. It was the calm dog training organisation but if you want the details and password for the modules just pm me and I will pass them on.


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## Tinkerbee (2 October 2019)

Levrier said:



			You could try dangling a squirrel in front of him?  That always transfixes my lot, they stand underneath the tree with their mouths open just WILLING the squirrel to fall out..... it never has 

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Ted has a tale to give them hope...One fell out of a tree (either already dead, or on impact ) straight into his waiting paws!


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## SAujla (2 October 2019)

I mentioned in earlier posts about being a vegetarian and having a dog on a vegetarian diet, I've decided not to do this. Regarding kibble or grain-free which is best? I have asked at two different pet stores and they said grain free is better, I know some people feed a raw diet but I think I'd prefer not to feed raw. If I feed grain free can it be dry or wet? I want to feed a dry diet with water separately.


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## {97702} (2 October 2019)

Tinkerbee said:



			Ted has a tale to give them hope...One fell out of a tree (either already dead, or on impact ) straight into his waiting paws!
		
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Oh my goodness you have just described greyhound and lurcher heaven ðŸ˜‚


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## Clodagh (2 October 2019)

Sukhpreet Aujla said:



			I mentioned in earlier posts about being a vegetarian and having a dog on a vegetarian diet, I've decided not to do this. Regarding kibble or grain-free which is best? I have asked at two different pet stores and they said grain free is better, I know some people feed a raw diet but I think I'd prefer not to feed raw. If I feed grain free can it be dry or wet? I want to feed a dry diet with water separately.
		
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There is a dog food recommendation website, which I think is a 'sticky' at the top of this section of the forum. I use millies wolfheart, I feed dry, and pups have the same food as adults. (But dampened).


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## SAujla (21 October 2019)

Apologies for bumping this thread up but it seemed a better option to post in here than create another thread. I wanted to ask about toilet training and whether I should take my puppy out on a lead so I can ensure she goes in the right place and doesn't get distracted? Once she's trained up I think this would not be necessary but generally how do you ensure the puppy goes when shes supposed to and in the right place?


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## Widgeon (21 October 2019)

Sukhpreet Aujla said:



			Apologies for bumping this thread up but it seemed a better option to post in here than create another thread. I wanted to ask about toilet training and whether I should take my puppy out on a lead so I can ensure she goes in the right place and doesn't get distracted? Once she's trained up I think this would not be necessary but generally how do you ensure the puppy goes when shes supposed to and in the right place?
		
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We did exactly as you describe, toilet breaks were timed (with extras if needed, obviously) to every half hour, every hour etc as he got bigger, and we took him into a corner of the garden on the lead, waited for him to go, and said "toilet" very enthusiastically like mad people, with snacks when he performed! Eventually he cottoned on to how it worked. The lead was useful for making sure he didn't get distracted.


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## windand rain (21 October 2019)

It is always better to take a puppy out and stay with it while it performs but if you have a safe garden I wouldn't bother with a lead


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## ihatework (21 October 2019)

Sukhpreet Aujla said:



			Apologies for bumping this thread up but it seemed a better option to post in here than create another thread. I wanted to ask about toilet training and whether I should take my puppy out on a lead so I can ensure she goes in the right place and doesn't get distracted? Once she's trained up I think this would not be necessary but generally how do you ensure the puppy goes when shes supposed to and in the right place?
		
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I would definitely train it on lead, both my dogs are hesitant to do their business on lead and there are times it would be very useful!


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## Pearlsasinger (21 October 2019)

Sukhpreet Aujla said:



			I mentioned in earlier posts about being a vegetarian and having a dog on a vegetarian diet, I've decided not to do this. Regarding kibble or grain-free which is best? I have asked at two different pet stores and they said grain free is better, I know some people feed a raw diet but I think I'd prefer not to feed raw. If I feed grain free can it be dry or wet? I want to feed a dry diet with water separately.
		
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I'm not sure why you want ro only give water separately?  There certainly should always be water available but dampened kibble/biscuits is much easier to eat, which for a puppy is important.  Grain-free or not is up to you but dogs really are omnivores and most can digest most things.  Of course, some dogs struggle to digest particular foods, we have had to spend fortunes on 'salmon & potato'/'duck and rice' for dogs with problems but if your dog doesn't need grain-free, you don't need to go down that route.


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## D66 (21 October 2019)

Our parsons Russel â€œpointsâ€ squirrels in the apple trees, (and shouts a lot to ensure you know itâ€™s there), if OH gets it with the air gun she can catch it before it hits the ground. 
At one point her recall only worked if you were dangling a squirrel. She is better now. 
Sorry to digress OP, good luck with your lab.


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## SAujla (21 October 2019)

Pearlsasinger said:



			I'm not sure why you want ro only give water separately?  There certainly should always be water available but dampened kibble/biscuits is much easier to eat, which for a puppy is important.  Grain-free or not is up to you but dogs really are omnivores and most can digest most things.  Of course, some dogs struggle to digest particular foods, we have had to spend fortunes on 'salmon & potato'/'duck and rice' for dogs with problems but if your dog doesn't need grain-free, you don't need to go down that route.
		
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I meant in a separate bowl along with the food, not separate as in giving dry food only then water at a later point


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## windand rain (21 October 2019)

Water should be available at all times. We have always free fed our dogs so they have always had dry kibble available ad lib too. We have found this methods eliminates the shovelling food down at a rate of knots by the dog, chances of bloat are reduced as the dog only eats what it needs when it is hungry and reduces the risk of obesity as they know there is food there when they need it so no need to stack it in. Always had dogs prone to obesity like labradors and Golden retrievers never had a fat one yet
Of course this is not the usual way and at first it means it is harder the house train as you have to observe when the pup is eating in order to get it out as short while after it has eaten.


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## Pearlsasinger (21 October 2019)

windand rain said:



			Water should be available at all times. We have always free fed our dogs so they have always had dry kibble available ad lib too. We have found this methods eliminates the shovelling food down at a rate of knots by the dog, chances of bloat are reduced as the dog only eats what it needs when it is hungry and reduces the risk of obesity as they know there is food there when they need it so no need to stack it in. Always had dogs prone to obesity like labradors and Golden retrievers never had a fat one yet
Of course this is not the usual way and at first it means it is harder the house train as you have to observe when the pup is eating in order to get it out as short while after it has eaten.
		
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I must admit that I would love to know how you teach a Lab puppy not to eat until the bowl is empty and then start on the next one!  

OP, I prefer to feed kibble dampened- and I did realise that you were intending to have water available in a separate dish but I wasn't sure why you wanted to feed the kibble dry.


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## windand rain (21 October 2019)

They have all self regulated from the start didnt do anything special just filled the bowl when it was empty. Will concede we have never dampened it or added other food just the complete dry kibble age appropriate of course


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## Clodagh (21 October 2019)

I cannot imagine a lab puppy self regulating! But well done W&R.


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## wren123 (21 October 2019)

We've had one lab that I could imagine self regulating, she just wasn't greedy. My others I can't imagine it working. 
I'm impressed WR!


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## SAujla (21 October 2019)

Pearlsasinger said:



			I must admit that I would love to know how you teach a Lab puppy not to eat until the bowl is empty and then start on the next one!  

OP, I prefer to feed kibble dampened- and I did realise that you were intending to have water available in a separate dish but I wasn't sure why you wanted to feed the kibble dry.
		
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I thought its fine to give kibble unaltered out the bag in one bowl and water in another, I just assumed the kibble is always dry unless I dampen it a bit? How do you dampen your kibble I have thought about doing it if my puppy is struggling a bit with it dry


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## splashgirl45 (21 October 2019)

i always put a little cold water with kibble so that they get some liquid at the same time as eating as one of mine hardly used to drink and i was worried she would have problems.  my current 2 always drink but i am in the habit anyway so still do it for their main meal.


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## Pearlsasinger (21 October 2019)

I just pour a bit of tepid water on the kibble in the bowl.  Some kinds of kibble, if not all, swell up when wet, so I would be worried that the pup would eat more dry kibble than its internal organs could cope with.  TBH, it would never occur to me to feed completely dry food.


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## Clodagh (22 October 2019)

When measuring the food just think how big a pups tummy is - so as big as a tighly clenched fist maybe? Smaller than that at 8 weeks. Then remember the dry food swells. The breeder will tell you how much and what they have been feeding, stick to that to start with.


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