# My horse won't go forward from the leg or the whip - what can I do?



## Slk (8 July 2012)

I have a 5yo mare, who has had a very slow start in life so far.  She is a real sweetie, very good to handle and good to lunge, long rein etc., moves well, but when you get on her back she is reluctant to move in all paces and upward transitions are especially difficult.  When you try to use a whip to reinforce your aids it has the opposite effect and she stops and bucks at the halt if you persist.  

Her back, teeth and saddle have been checked and are all fine, but she has been growing steadily and has a tendency to stay croup high, so her saddle fit does vary (particularly with this summer's grass!).  She is very regularly checked by a saddler, and I have had to change my saddle every 3 months or so over the last year as she has been growing, so there may have been periods that have been less comfortable for her than others over that time.  However, her behaviour has been present to a greater or lesser degree throughout that time.  

Any advice as to how I can work through this, or anyone with experiences they can share that would help me??


----------



## Meowy Catkin (8 July 2012)

Does she respond to voice aids?


----------



## TigerTail (8 July 2012)

Slk said:



			When you try to use a whip to reinforce your aids it has the opposite effect and she stops and bucks at the halt if you persist.
		
Click to expand...

Well im really not surprised - you'd retaliate if someone was hitting you wouldnt you?! Kicking with both legs blocks the swing of the rib cage stopping the horse being able to step under more.

Its most likely you blocking her with your seat and the saddle being tight and uncomfortable.
Suggest you try using your stick on your boot to make a noise.


----------



## Meandtheboys (8 July 2012)

Well if she was mine and going through a growth spurt I would turn her away for 3 months - I have had to do this twice so far with my youngster.
Or do something more 'fun' that will encourage to move forwards - maybe a nice funride....

Just a couple of suggestions but obviously I would not rule out time of year and whether her 'seasons' are making her feel uncomfortable.


----------



## Kelliejoharry (8 July 2012)

This may sound like a silly suggestion but what are you feeding her, I had a similar thing with my youngster and she was pretty dead to my leg but ok lunging and long reining, after trying may different things. I spoke to a nutritionalist at Spillers and they we a god send. They changed her diet because she was so full of grass in the summer and not getting enough concentrated food to provided the energy I needed to use. 
Just a suggestion, try emailing them and they will give you loads of free advice ( and you dont even have to buy their food)


----------



## Littlelegs (8 July 2012)

Firstly you need to make sure the saddle currently fits. If moving forwards in the past has caused her pain, she will be remembering forwards= uncomfortable. The fact she's always done it & is only 5 I would also suspect some of it will be rider error so get a good instructor to have a look & see what they can spot that might be contributing. Then once you have dealt with the cause, you need to get her thinking forwards. Take her out hacking with a lively horse to wake her up a bit, fun rides etc, & teach her the correct aids.


----------



## Slk (8 July 2012)

Faracat said:



			Does she respond to voice aids?
		
Click to expand...

When you are on the ground yes, but no where near as much when you are on her back


----------



## pixiebee (8 July 2012)

has she always done this or is it new?? how about if someone led you? or what about a hack to get her going foreward?


----------



## Amymay (8 July 2012)

What breed is she, and are you absolutely sure of her age?

Did you break her in, and how does she respond to another rider - ie your instructor?


----------



## Sugar_and_Spice (8 July 2012)

If the saddle fits it could be that you tense up when you ask her to go forwards. This would block her movement. You could also, if moving a lot to kick, be accidentally moving your hands back and pulling her mouth as you kick. Try pushing your hands forwards as you ask for an upward transition. Apart from that use your voice in a very encouraging tone, not growling at her to move, and praise any forward movement at all, even one half hearted step. 

If you need to use the whip use it just behind your leg not on her bum. Horses have to learn what the whip means, they're not born knowing it means move, so her bucking is a natural reaction. 

As others have said take her hacking, but don't just ride along, do plenty of transitions. Use voice and physical aids and praise every time she makes a good attempt and particularly when she gets it right. She will learn but it will take time.


----------



## pixiebee (8 July 2012)

try leading her with a schooling whip, use your voice and flick of the whip where you would use it if you rode her at the same time. do this a few times and she should soon learn a flick of the whip means go foreward, so if you then use it in the same way as your voice when your on her, she should remember what it means, as someone said, she may just not know why you are hitting her with the whip, hence the bucking????


----------



## Slk (8 July 2012)

littlelegs said:



			Firstly you need to make sure the saddle currently fits. If moving forwards in the past has caused her pain, she will be remembering forwards= uncomfortable. The fact she's always done it & is only 5 I would also suspect some of it will be rider error so get a good instructor to have a look & see what they can spot that might be contributing.
		
Click to expand...

The saddle was very recently checked and I tried several other saddles with my saddler and she was the same in all of them no matter how good the fit (albeit only tried for 10-15 minutes each).  I am going to try a treeless saddle with a decent pad next week to see if that helps (again under advice from my saddler).

I am working with an instructor, sometimes we seem to get somewhere, but sometimes not.  I'd never claim to be the best rider in the world, but I'm not a novice, and although I'm not perfect I don't think this is rider error.

I do however wonder whether there have been periods where forwards has = uncomfortable and this is carrying through even when she's not.


----------



## Tammytoo (8 July 2012)

How are you riding her?  If you are trying to ride on the bit/in an outline at this early stage you may be confusing her.  If this is the case, try adopting a more relaxed style to get her moving forward.  Forget style just think forward, long and loose almost cowboy style.   Flap the reins, use your voice, click.   Once she's got the hang of forward you can then introduce transitions.

I saw a western trained rider get on a young horse whose owner couldn't get himto move off the spot .  She jumped on, flapped the reins ands shouted yee-haa and the horse just cantered off!  She explained that concentrating too much on riding correctly was blocking the horse.

Ifyou have already tried this, then please ignore me!


----------



## Ibblebibble (8 July 2012)

how long has she been working? i have a horse that wan't broken until he was 6/7. he really struggled with going forward with someone on him, he could go backwards though!  he was fine longreining and i did consider getting someone to longrein him with me on him but then the thought of those lines and me getting in a tangle put me off that idea! what i did realise is that when i give the voice aid to move on or go up a gear i give a gentle wiggle on the longreins as well, so when i got on him i used voice and a little wiggle down the reins, and damn me but off he went happy as larry!! we started using leg aids with the rein aid and then dropped the rein wiggle completely and he's now pretty good off the leg. he does have a fantastic set of brakes though and we're still working on stopping him from going from canter to dead stop when he feels he's had enough!!


----------



## Slk (8 July 2012)

Kelliejoharry said:



			This may sound like a silly suggestion but what are you feeding her, I had a similar thing with my youngster and she was pretty dead to my leg but ok lunging and long reining, after trying may different things. I spoke to a nutritionalist at Spillers and they we a god send. They changed her diet because she was so full of grass in the summer and not getting enough concentrated food to provided the energy I needed to use. 
Just a suggestion, try emailing them and they will give you loads of free advice ( and you dont even have to buy their food)
		
Click to expand...

She is on the GWF diet (alfalfa, equilibra and fibergest) and through the winter was on tiger oats too.  I don't think it is feed or energy related, but thanks, and I may email Spillers anyway to see what they say


----------



## Archie73 (8 July 2012)

Probably way off the mark but you mention summer grass and that you have more problems in upward transitions but no problems long reining, I'm thinking footsore.


----------



## Slk (8 July 2012)

Ibblebibble said:



			how long has she been working? i have a horse that wan't broken until he was 6/7. he really struggled with going forward with someone on him, he could go backwards though!  he was fine longreining and i did consider getting someone to longrein him with me on him but then the thought of those lines and me getting in a tangle put me off that idea! what i did realise is that when i give the voice aid to move on or go up a gear i give a gentle wiggle on the longreins as well, so when i got on him i used voice and a little wiggle down the reins, and damn me but off he went happy as larry!! we started using leg aids with the rein aid and then dropped the rein wiggle completely and he's now pretty good off the leg. he does have a fantastic set of brakes though and we're still working on stopping him from going from canter to dead stop when he feels he's had enough!!

Click to expand...

She was broken at about 3.5 yrs, turned away and brought back into work at about 4.  All this was with her previous owner.  Since I bought her, she has been worked consistently for about 6 months or so through late summer last year and over the winter, but through the early part of this year I have had to cut back what I do for other unrelated reasons and have mainly been working from the ground.  I am just starting to bring her back into ridden work again now, so want to make sure I am doing the right things to get through this issue.

I will certainly try the rein thing, I know that I do the same as you when I am long reining, so you never know


----------



## millitiger (8 July 2012)

Are you are absolutely sure you aren't blocking her (and not just with your reins- so many people block with their seat and thighs)?

Does she hack at all? It can be very hard to get youngsters enthusiastic about going forward when you are going in a circle.

I am not into Parelli or anything, but a wip *** can really help instead of a whip- particularly with a mare as they are more inclined to tell you to bog off if you hit them!

I used a leadrope with the clip cut off and it worked very, very well on my mare who could be a bit mardy about the leg when she was first under saddle.


----------



## Amymay (8 July 2012)

So you're effectively starting her again. Get a 100% equine companion and get her out hacking. You're going to need to ride her every day - not in the school. And once she's more responsive and forward you can employ the services of a good instructor who has experience with young horses to bring her on.

The horse is simply inexperienced, and failing to understamd what you want, so using a stick is both incorrect and unfair.


----------



## Slk (8 July 2012)

pixiebee said:



			try leading her with a schooling whip, use your voice and flick of the whip where you would use it if you rode her at the same time. do this a few times and she should soon learn a flick of the whip means go foreward, so if you then use it in the same way as your voice when your on her, she should remember what it means, as someone said, she may just not know why you are hitting her with the whip, hence the bucking????
		
Click to expand...

I have been varying the ground work I do between long reining, "proper" lunging and leading on a long rein with a whip using it as you suggest above and am certainly hoping that this will help.  It didn't seem to when I tried the different saddles last week, but I am going to try doing this immediately before I get on next week to see if that helps.

I think there is a mixture of not understanding and also as per one of the other posts above thinking it is going to be uncomfortable where her shape and hence the saddle fit has been varying... but I would like to see what other people think and particularly if someone else has first hand experience of this type of behaviour.  I've been lucky enough not to come across this before


----------



## Slk (8 July 2012)

I try not to take offence at some of the comments back, after all I have asked for your help, and you obviously can't tell everything from a short post, but please don't get me wrong... when I say she stops and bucks when I reinforce the leg with the whip, it does not mean I am a novice rider doing pony club kicks and whacking her hard with the whip if she doesn't listen, on her bum or otherwise!! 

At no point have I hit her with any force - I try to be a reasonably sympathetic rider (sometimes probably too soft!) and have been riding for a good number of years and have owned and competed horses for a long time.  That said, this type of problem is a new one to me.

I am using progressive aids (light squeeze, harder squeeze, short sharp kick) and giving her chance to respond each time.  I have tried various options with a whip - shoulder, just behind the leg, on the barrel behind my calf, and have tried a variety of dressage and jump whips to vary the noise or flick.

I actually get a better response when I carry a dressage whip and hold it out at 90 degrees so she can see it out of the corner of her eye rather than using it... but this only works once or twice before she starts to ignore it


----------



## Slk (8 July 2012)

Tammytoo said:



			How are you riding her?  If you are trying to ride on the bit/in an outline at this early stage you may be confusing her.  If this is the case, try adopting a more relaxed style to get her moving forward.  Forget style just think forward, long and loose almost cowboy style.   Flap the reins, use your voice, click.   Once she's got the hang of forward you can then introduce transitions.

I saw a western trained rider get on a young horse whose owner couldn't get himto move off the spot .  She jumped on, flapped the reins ands shouted yee-haa and the horse just cantered off!  She explained that concentrating too much on riding correctly was blocking the horse.

Ifyou have already tried this, then please ignore me!
		
Click to expand...

That's an interesting one, thanks   not too disimilar to the long rein "wiggle" idea in one of the other posts.

I have from time to time and when she is going well, and I (or my instructor) felt she was ready, gathered her up.  However, in general, she is ridden on a light elastic contact with no pressure for an outline.


----------



## Meowy Catkin (8 July 2012)

I actually get a better response when I carry a dressage whip and hold it out at 90 degrees so she can see it out of the corner of her eye rather than using it... but this only works once or twice before she starts to ignore it
		
Click to expand...

Try riding with two schooling whips (one in each hand) and rotate your wrists to make them flap up and down. You can do this without pulling on her mouth. The movement should send her forwards (I use this method with my nappy mare who will rear if you push her too hard, but this sends her forwards nicely).

ETA. You don't need to touch the horse at all - it's the movement behind their head that sends then forwards. Obviously try slight movement first as you don't want to worry her.


----------



## mini-eventer (8 July 2012)

I have one the same only I know he has been ridden very badly in the past niggles nagged and blocked by the rider.

If I dare use a whip he broncs like stink. 

Hacking has been amazing for him he is forward 90% of the time now. I praised big time any forward effort form him. Smacking a whip on my boot rather than him. I kept it low preasure and low stress but once a certain level of forwardness had been establised I then upped the preasure again.  I am not schooling at all  untill forwadness has been established 99% of the time. Although I am now introducing working into a contact flexing and legyielding whilst hacking. 

Hacking making it fun has been the key


----------



## Misog2000 (8 July 2012)

My mare becomes reluctant to go forwards when in season, we think she has some ovary pain which makes her tight behind the saddle, she feels like she has a handbrake on when you ride her, for want of a better description. Is she like it all the time? Or could it be hormone related? Just an idea?


----------



## Amymay (8 July 2012)

But as the horse is being restarted the whip at this stage has no meaning for them.- other than a punishment to react against - no matter how its employed. You also never use a stick on the shoulder to get a horse to move forward, even more so when backing something.

Aids should be clear, definitive and constant. With a young horse such as yours I would aim to give the aid clearly and firmly.   Once the horse is moving off from this aid, you can then look at employing a more subtle aid - not the other way around.


----------



## Goldenstar (8 July 2012)

Have I dealt with this a few times with horses I bought in .
I dealt with it by not using the whip refusing to work harder than the horse .
If she where mine I would stop going in the school.
I would hack out with a good companion making it fun I would teach her to lead from another horse you will need a friend with you the first few times you go out and about in fact the bigger group the better it is a good way for a youngster to see the world with out the added stress of behind ridden.praise any good behaviour excessively try to ignore the bad as much as possible.
When you have established good forward hacking like this then I would indroduce the whip again I always used two Long schooling whips and rode with them for some time never using them when I wanted to start again I gave one leg aid backed up by the voice if the horse did not go I would use the whip lightly but insistently just behind the leg i would not kick kick with the legs until you get a forward reaction as I started to use the whip my groom would walk quicker or trot off in front of me as soon as the horse goes lots of praise even though they are just following just a thought it worked for me as a system.


----------



## g&tanyone? (8 July 2012)

If she is 5, have you turned her away before? Maybe she is getting a bit stale


----------



## Slk (8 July 2012)

Thanks everyone for your thoughts, I'm glad to hear this is probably a youngster thing and will certainly try to hack as much as I can.  She is a good hack in company, but understandably insecure on her own, nothing nasty, just babyish.  Until she is a bit more confident and responsive and can go out on her own we won't be able to hack every day as I am on a yard on my own so need to get someone over to ride my old mare out with us... I've not got anyone who can come every day, but can probably get out a couple of times a week.

If there are any suggestions of what I can do with her on non hacking days to keep her entertained and thinking forward, please fire away


----------



## jools123 (8 July 2012)

if she is responsive to the voice on the lunge i would pop a rider on just to sit there and do NOTHING whilst she is lunged so she learns to go forward with a rider on board, when she is happy and confident with this start to introduce rider aids-combine this with hacking out to get her more forward thinking-this is how i have always done it in the past.
however i am currently in the process of backing my 5yr old bitless in the hope that without a bit in the early days whilst she is finding her balance with a rider will mean she ends up more forward thinking and with a softer mouth (due to no unintentional balancing via the reins) when i do introduce a bit


----------



## Slk (8 July 2012)

Misog2000 said:



			My mare becomes reluctant to go forwards when in season, we think she has some ovary pain which makes her tight behind the saddle, she feels like she has a handbrake on when you ride her, for want of a better description. Is she like it all the time? Or could it be hormone related? Just an idea?
		
Click to expand...

Thanks and I will certainly keep an eye out for this to see if any sort of pattern / cycle starts to appear, but to date I have not noticed one so I don't think it is hormonal or ovary pain, but will keep it in mind.


----------



## Kallibear (8 July 2012)

Your three choices are a) she can't go forwards properly (sore, unbalanced etc) b) she doesn't understand what you're asking or c) she just doesn't want to go forwards.

If you're completely happy it's not A (although at 5yrs old and still growing she will be unbalanced and gangly), I supsect it's B with a little C mixed in.

Hacking and going fast in company will help. Hunting (and Common riding) will REALLY help! You want her to think fast=fun.

Having your instructor encourage her with a lunge stick may really help her too. She needs to understand what 'forwards' means, and do as she's asked when told but without you nagging. When she goes (even if it's galloping off at first), praise and encourage it. Piper is a lazy little toerag and was stuffy going forwards. Someone reminding him to keep going with a lunge whip made the world of differnce. 

Ditto what other have said about blocking her. Forget about pretty outlines and even a strong contact: go into a slightly forwards seat, give her her reins if that helps and make do everything you can to make going fast easy. Once she's learnt to go, she can learn to stop again 

I also found a clear 'kick' (think pony club kick but without the force behind it) rather than a constant nag was FAR more effective for Piper.


----------



## Bikerchickone (8 July 2012)

My 5 year old is exactly like this so we're doing lots and lots of fun hacking. She enjoys it, she's more forward going naturally when out and it gives us a chance to teach her voice and leg aids and praise her loudly when she gets it right. So far so good!


----------



## mini-eventer (9 July 2012)

I would get her hacking out alone asap. You said yourself she is not dangerous just babyish. So it shouldnt be too hard.

 If she naps or stops and looks, sit quietly untill she gets bored and goes forward so you dont get into a stressfull fight. This may take 20min or even more so give yourself plenty of time. 

you will find your confidence in each other will grow massively and it will do her the world of good.

 We have ours hacking alone within weeks of being backed. They often dont see the point in going round a school.


----------



## jbaxter (15 July 2015)

mini-eventer said:



			I would get her hacking out alone asap. You said yourself she is not dangerous just babyish. So it shouldnt be too hard.

 If she naps or stops and looks, sit quietly untill she gets bored and goes forward so you dont get into a stressfull fight. This may take 20min or even more so give yourself plenty of time. 

you will find your confidence in each other will grow massively and it will do her the world of good.

 We have ours hacking alone within weeks of being backed. They often dont see the point in going round a school.
		
Click to expand...

I know this is from a long time ago, but I think the above is *excellent* advice and I would love to know the outcome of the issue under discussion.


----------



## FairyLights (15 July 2015)

agree with getting her hacking out. teach her to respond to the voice as well. you also need to back off with the leg aids. the more you do the less they will respond. very light aids are what are needed. it makes them listen. I know it seems the opposite of what is required but it isnt its whats needed.


----------



## jbaxter (15 July 2015)

FairyLights said:



			agree with getting her hacking out. teach her to respond to the voice as well. you also need to back off with the leg aids. the more you do the less they will respond. very light aids are what are needed. it makes them listen. I know it seems the opposite of what is required but it isnt its whats needed.
		
Click to expand...

What about tiny blunt spurs? My four-year-old pony has started planting himself, both in the school and while out hacking. He doesn't respond to the whip - in fact it seems to make him dig his heels in more. And he isn't asked to work for long spells in the school, just enough to establish balanced circles at the trot, changes of direction and a little bit of canter - with plenty of pauses and walking on a loose rein. Having said that, the spurs don't seem to help a great deal either. I'm far from a novice rider, but it's a long time since I schooled ponies! His tack fits very well - he's even got a Fairfax girth, but he is a little bit bum high. My feeling is that he will always be rather workshy unless it's something he wants to do. And the only thing he's ever seemed to really enjoy is hacking across fields.


----------



## iconique (15 July 2015)

mini-eventers advice is good, but one question what about reward? 
Everyone has talked about what to do when she doesn't but what about when she does?  Nearly every rider that I've come across with a napper (that pain isn't involved in) is very good with the heels or stick, but not so good with the reward. If she does stop wait and even if she only goes a step reward. Transitions also might be easier whilst out hacking with someone else until established, again reward with a good scratch to the neck and some praise - costs nothing!

(sorry if you already do it! it sounds obvious but is often overlooked!)


----------



## jbaxter (15 July 2015)

iconique said:



			mini-eventers advice is good, but one question what about reward? 
Everyone has talked about what to do when she doesn't but what about when she does?  Nearly every rider that I've come across with a napper (that pain isn't involved in) is very good with the heels or stick, but not so good with the reward. If she does stop wait and even if she only goes a step reward. Transitions also might be easier whilst out hacking with someone else until established, again reward with a good scratch to the neck and some praise - costs nothing!

(sorry if you already do it! it sounds obvious but is often overlooked!)
		
Click to expand...

Yes, I do that. In fact, when these situations arise, I'm inclined to wonder if the pony senses that I'm inherently kind and takes advantage of it! We all tend to feel inadequate at these times. And when I try just to sit it out I notice that he's quite comfortable resting a hind leg and relaxing. I do agree with the suggestion of doing the transitions out when riding on the fields. But right now I'm restricted to headlands because the crops are growing.


----------

