# Policy on livery yard for in-foal pony - I'm not happy



## chasing-my-tail (28 April 2013)

We own the small DIY livery yard.

I was a bit taken aback when the lady in question said her pony was in foal - firstly because we are not a breeding yard, never has it be mentioned nor was a question asked.

Now it due to foal she has asked us for another small field, which is a complete niusence as we are a very busy, so its going to take many hours to clear (at our expense).

We are going to have to charge her for the use of another field plus I dont want  to rent it out for long as I know what will happen before we know it - it will be used as an extension.

I was thinking of doing a letter with the points made out for this field to protect us from further taken the p@ss out of.

My husband is still not happy about this foal thing either. What are the policies of having to provide an additional field - believe me we dont have much free space!  In the BHS agreement nothing is mentioned on this either and it never crossed my mind.


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## Hippona (28 April 2013)

Well....you never know, you may be lucky....she may find a more welcoming yard on which to spend her money.


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## kateo (28 April 2013)

You can do whatever you want, give her what she wants or don't or give her notice to leave and tell her that your yard is not suitable for a foal.


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## Tobiano (28 April 2013)

Good heavens!  I cannot imagine behaving like this with my livery yard.  When I moved my youngster in I had the field modified with the YO's consent AT MY EXPENSE and everything was done with the prior agreement of the YO.  

I havent seen the original post (I assume there is one) and whether the foal is a surprise but if not I would have expected the owner to be up front about the whole thing.  

I would also suggest that as the YO you check the terms of your insurance - as you say, you may not be covered for breeding / foaling at the yard and I'd advise you to discuss it with your insurer or broker.  

I would not go as far as to suggest turning the livery off the yard but I certainly think they should be paying every penny of additional cost.


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## be positive (28 April 2013)

I think you are right to feel put upon, unless the owner genuinely had no idea the mare was in foal until now she is taking liberties really, most DIY yards are not set up to have mares and foals, they will require a safe and separate field for the next 6 months, the foal may then need somewhere other than the usual fields when weaned, ideally with another youngster or something of a similar size. 
This should have been discussed when bringing the pony to you or before sending her to stud if it was done during her time at your yard, not left until the last minute to make arrangements, yet another thing to think about when taking on new liveries and more in the contract.


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## honetpot (28 April 2013)

To be honest I think its more trouble than its worth. Work out how much this is going to cost you in labour and materials against the amount you can charge. You also have to think what is going to happen to the foal once weaned, it can not live on its own and unless its really well bred she will practically have to give it away once weaned. The mare should be absolutely fine living out with others, mine do as long as its a settled herd.
 I do not know if this was an unplanned foal but its not up to you to sort out the problem.


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## Equinus (28 April 2013)

I agree, they should do the work/foot the bill if they knew the mare was in foal and didn't tell you. And you need to check your insurance.

It might be a good idea to make a point in your contract for the future.


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## mynutmeg (28 April 2013)

I'm on livery with an in-foal mare but the first thing I did was discuss it with yo before even looking for a stallion. We are a different set up in that the yo has several in-foal mares as well so we have slightly more appropriate facillities.

I think you're right to be annoyed (assuming it's not a bogof and they only just found out). Any extra expense should be billed to them and I'd make this quite clear with a written contract to that effect before you do any of the work. Also set out how much livery is to be charged for the foal and from when, ie I'm paying nothing extra for the first 3 months then £10 a week extra till weaning when it will go onto either grass or normal livery.

If she doesn't like your terms then she can find somewhere else. Should have told you and been honest


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## Hippona (28 April 2013)

Surely the pony must have arrived pregnant.....either known to the owner in which case it should have been discussed, or its BOGOF. It wouldn't have gone off to stud without YO knowing surely??
I assume she will be paying for the extra field?
Tell her she can rent the extra space short term, but will need to clear it/ get it ready herself and make it clear there is an end point......


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## katastrophykat (28 April 2013)

I bred a foal at livery- discussed with the Yard owners before the mare went to stud, agreements made about where/how she would foal and my YO's wife is an ex-stud groom and vet nurse before she became a radiographer. She was behind me the whole way for advice when I needed it. If they had said no, I would not have bred, or moved my mare. We foaled her in the field next to her usual herd, and put the mare and foal back in with the herd at 4 weeks. There was a bit of a runabout but it sharp settled, with mum as a mobile milk bar and the head mare in the herd as 'auntie' who taught him hi manners. When it came to weaning, he barely noticed that his dam was missing- he had his Auntie Teagan! 

All I'm saying really is that it can work in with the herd- depends what it's like.


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## Elsiecat (28 April 2013)

If you've got a spare field that isn't currently in usable condition (so I assume its just stood there used for nothing) I don't see the problem with her using it, especially if she's paying extra! 
Sure, she should have told you earlier. But perhaps she didn't know herself?
You come across as a YO that I'd run a mile from


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## horsesatemymoney (28 April 2013)

Bit unreasonable on her part,but she is your customer- you sound a bit abrasive, maybe why she hasn't been open with you?


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## Marydoll (28 April 2013)

I think it depends on the circumstances tbh, if she knew the mare was in foal she's a real chancer and shouldve discussed it with you, if not and shes trying to make the best of a bad situation you could either show her the space, tell her she can have it for an agreed term but she will have to clear it and ensure its safe for her mare and foal, that you take no responsibility for the pair in regards to the foaling and draw up a contract that states this. Tbh if i was her i'd leave for something more suitable and settled, but youre right, it shouldnt all have been dumped on you to sort out


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## thatsmygirl (28 April 2013)

I agree your attitude stinks, I wouldn't want a yo such as you after the way that was written. Think we are lucky where we are, a small group of people, do what we want and never see a yo apart from payday. I couldn't be bothered with snotty people ESP if your a paying customer. 

I would also watch that the owner doesn't appear on here and see this, happens to often!!


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## chasing-my-tail (28 April 2013)

Thanks for some good feedback - we are a very small DIY outfit providing a friendly, approachable and quality grazing.  Its very reasonable and yes it is a business so it needs to pay - additional hours worked need to be accounted for like any business.  An empty field needs to be checked over and cleared and its not an opportunity to spread the grazing on our land as and when the owners feel like it.  No different to any business that rents.

The ladies are very happy here - if they werent happy they'd leave. All issues are ironed out at the time.  I didnt know that the pony went to stud until a few weeks ago and never had to deal with this before.  I agree she should of asked and checked with us first and will check with NFU later on our insurance policy.

Sorry to see some harsh replies, the reason I'm on here is to find facts, I didnt realise as a "business" I wasn't allowed to ask or vent questions!!! Sorry to offend some of you <growl back>.


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## onlytheponely (28 April 2013)

I'd be checking my yard insurance policy very carefully as it might not cover foals under a certain age. If yours doesn't cover her animals she will need to be aware of this and, if necessary, take out her own policy to cover her foal. As a yard owner I would want to see proof of her cover anyway. 

Any field she goes into will need proper fencing as foals can hurt themselves on thin air. If you weren't informed of the situation in advance then she should be paying for any extra fencing/clearing work necessary to accommodate her needs. It's not about being insensitive or unhelpful it's about not being informed/asked. 

Is she intending to let let the mare foal in the field? Is it the mare's first foal? Does anyone on the yard have any experience with foaling and it's potential complications? 

Not an ideal position to find yourself in OP and you have my sympathy. Too many people assume that it will all go smoothly, sadly it isn't always like that.


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## quirky (28 April 2013)

chasing-my-tail said:



			I didnt know that the pony went to stud until a few weeks ago and never had to deal with this before.  I agree she should of asked and checked with us first and will check with NFU later on our insurance policy.
		
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If I was putting my mare in foal, I would want to make sure that the YO had both the facilities and knowledge to support me and the mare.
I would be wanting a larger box for foaling, straw to bed on (we are usually on sawdust) and the YO's permission to carry out the late night checks for however long was necessary.

If I was you, I too would be mad at this woman's complete disregard for you. Our yard is all locked up at night, assuming yours is, it is going to be quite intrusive for you if you live on site and have her coming and going at all times.

As it happens, the yard I am on now could accommodate a mare and foal, others I have been on couldn't possibly have done so and I would have moved somewhere more suitable prior to getting the mare in foal.

If it really is a massive inconvenience to you, maybe you could suggest she sends the mare back to stud to foal down


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## WelshD (28 April 2013)

If you only found out a few weeks ago then I would ask her to clear the field or charge her 

If the foal is imminent then obviously they can't move which would be the obvious solution if you aren't set up for foals

I would personally get the livery to sign something to say they are satisfied with your makeshift paddock

If they have chanced not telling you about the foal they may chance action if the foal gets injured

I would also stress that you are not paid to do the regular checks needed during the pregnancy and early days after the birth etc so they'll need to make arrangements

Your original post did sound like your attitude was not good but to be honest after your later post I can fully understand why you are pi$$ed 

Had they told you months ago it would be very different


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## Polos Mum (28 April 2013)

I'm amazed an owner sent the pony off to stud without discussing foaling, facilities with you first.  Unless you're happy with all the extra inconvenience (including here potentially living there for a few weeks over foaling to do 2 hourly checks, and then having to accomodate at weaning and then potentially a young colt etc.) and if the pony isn't due imminently I'd suggest she looks for specialist foaling livery.  The extra cost for your time/ inconvenience will be very large in comparison to what she's used to paying. 

My attitude would be different if it was a BOGOF. 

If it;s a nice yard with nice ladies who are happy then you should fill the space no problem.


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## Maesfen (28 April 2013)

chasing-my-tail said:



			Thanks for some good feedback - we are a very small DIY outfit providing a friendly, approachable and quality grazing.  Its very reasonable and yes it is a business so it needs to pay - additional hours worked need to be accounted for like any business.  An empty field needs to be checked over and cleared and its not an opportunity to spread the grazing on our land as and when the owners feel like it.  No different to any business that rents.

The ladies are very happy here - if they werent happy they'd leave. All issues are ironed out at the time.  I didnt know that the pony went to stud until a few weeks ago and never had to deal with this before.  I agree she should of asked and checked with us first and will check with NFU later on our insurance policy.

Sorry to see some harsh replies, the reason I'm on here is to find facts, I didnt realise as a "business" I wasn't allowed to ask or vent questions!!! Sorry to offend some of you <growl back>.
		
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In that case, the owner is a complete muppet to not have consulted you first.  TBH, if you're not set up to have the space or facilities a mare and foal should have I would be telling her to find somewhere else as it shows a complete disregard for taking all precautions/situations before she should even have thought about taking her mare to stud; it begs the thought what else she is assuming that you'll take care of for her hobby.

And no, I don't think your attitude stinks at all.   It's your yard and the facilities you have are up to you; you purposely haven't gone for being breeding livery so it's wrong of your livery to assume she can change things for her benefit without consulting you in the very first place.  Even if it had been a surprise bogof, I would still be saying the same I'm afraid unless I was happy to alter things for them.
As to charges, it's at least £10 per day for mare with foal at stud usually a lot more so even at DIY, you need to charge at least £6 a day for them, more if you get involved with the handling of them.
At the end of the day, your business, your rules and in your case I wouldn't be bending over backwards to accommodate her I'm afraid because she's been so sneaky.  I can't believe she has the gall to insist on changes which you wouldn't have made on your own behalf.


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## Hippona (28 April 2013)

I'm amazed she sent the pony to stud without discussing with you....that is out of order certainly. I would be annoyed at that too.

I can appreciate it's a nuisance....but it's sortable. Just make sure you charge enough to cover costs, labour etc.


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## Holly Hocks (28 April 2013)

Tell her to take it to the stud to foal and keep it there until the foal is weaned?  Surely a stud will have better facilities anyway.


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## justabob (28 April 2013)

I think you have every right to be pee'd off OP, I really don't understand why you have had such harsh comments from members on this forum.


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## WelshD (28 April 2013)

I would also ask her to move but I didnt think you could/should travel a heavily pregnant mare...


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## Patterdale (28 April 2013)

I'd be peed off too, and I'd charge her every penny of the extra costs. 

It shouldn't be your place to subsidise her irresponsible breeding.


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## Polos Mum (28 April 2013)

Delicious_D said:



			Re: insurance. Do disclaimer have any hold in this country? If so, make her sign one
		
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I'd definitely second this, foals can get into so much trouble and as she hasn't the curtesy to discuss this with you in advance I'd hazard a guess she'd be happy to sue you if the foal was injured in not 100% ideal fencing or stood in in the box as it isn't a huge foaling box or attacked by other horses on the yard, if the foal wondered off while being lead to the field. 

TBH how will she lead them to and from field - in my limited experience this is a two person job 1 for mare and 1 for foal - does she expect you do to this or does she have a friend / OH that can come with her twice a day? - all these silly little things need to be thought through and costed before you give her a price. 

I can't recall who on here but someone recently posted about loosing a 6 week old foal when it was attacked by another mare in the field. 

can you work out how far gone the mare is and whether she's still fit to travel?


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## HBM1 (28 April 2013)

I am absolutely amazed at some of the comments on here, saying how rude the YO is, but being equally rude in response.  I breed on a very small scale and last year, before my mare foaled, I moved to a DIY yard.  I checked prior to moving that the manager was happy for this and could accommodate a foal.  Foals do not just pitch up and merrily carry on with life, they need proper fencing, a good sized stable to foal down in and other people around the yard also have to be accommodating towards them.  

Foals need leading in, I am sure the lady will not be able to lead both mare and foal herself in the early days, so will possibly be asking for help to turn out and bring in.  Or is she going to have the foal lead in loose?  This can cause other problems for those around the yard.  Now down to the actual foaling, no one knows exactly when they are going to arrive, so will this lady be camped out overnight for days on end?  If the YO lives on site, this may be disruptive for her, and the other horses on the yard.  Or is baby just going to arrive on his/her own, in which case, morally most people would feel some kind of responsibility to check if the owner isn't.  Has the lady had foals before, or is this her first?  What field arrangements does she expect when foal is weaned? Does she have a private field, or share with the other liveries?  Are the other liveries horses ok to be around a foal?

The problem for the YO is that NONE of this has been checked out.  I think it is very rude of the livery to be honest and unless I could be sure I had answers to every question I wanted to ask, both regarding before and after foaling, I would not want the added responsibility.  It isn't just a case of "aww cute foalie on the yard, how great".


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## Elsiecat (28 April 2013)

HBM1 said:



			I am absolutely amazed at some of the comments on here, saying how rude the YO is
		
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I may be wrong but after OP confirmed that this was a planned breeding by the owner and not a BOGOF that no one has called the YO rude. It was only whilst the possibility was open that it could be a BOGOF that's left the owner in a bad position that anyone commented on the YO attitude. 

If it had have been a BOGOF then the YO was being unfair.
Now we know it isn't and was planned, the YO is justified in being annoyed.


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## HBM1 (28 April 2013)

Elsiecat said:



			I may be wrong but after OP confirmed that this was a planned breeding by the owner and not a BOGOF that no one has called the YO rude. It was only whilst the possibility was open that it could be a BOGOF that's left the owner in a bad position that anyone commented on the YO attitude. 

If it had have been a BOGOF then the YO was being unfair.
Now we know it isn't and was planned, the YO is justified in being annoyed.
		
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but maybe someone could have asked the question before some of the responses were written?


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## Elsiecat (28 April 2013)

HBM1 said:



			but maybe someone could have asked the question before some of the responses were written?
		
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True but I don't think anyone commented on anything in particular, just the YO attitude in her first comment


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## lachlanandmarcus (28 April 2013)

quirky said:



			If I was putting my mare in foal, I would want to make sure that the YO had both the facilities and knowledge to support me and the mare.
I would be wanting a larger box for foaling, straw to bed on (we are usually on sawdust) and the YO's permission to carry out the late night checks for however long was necessary.

If I was you, I too would be mad at this woman's complete disregard for you. Our yard is all locked up at night, assuming yours is, it is going to be quite intrusive for you if you live on site and have her coming and going at all times.

As it happens, the yard I am on now could accommodate a mare and foal, others I have been on couldn't possibly have done so and I would have moved somewhere more suitable prior to getting the mare in foal.

If it really is a massive inconvenience to you, maybe you could suggest she sends the mare back to stud to foal down 

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This, I would be asking her to leave TBH (Im not a YO so it wouldn't arise) but to me not telling your YO you are putting your mare in foal/have put them in foal is extremely rude and an equivalent level of rudeness would not be tolerated in any other context, so why should it here when there are studs available who could board the mare till foaling? 

Just because there might be a field which with a lot of work COULD accommodate a foal doesn't mean you are obliged to do so. The client is paying livery for ONE horse in the existing grounds and anything else is entirely at the YO discretion. In addition it isn't just about the field, its the toings and froings at all hours, upsetting the other settled clients and the plain deception. 

I suspect that you are normally a cheery nice YO and it isn't really fair of people on here to judge you as a YO based on a scenario where you have been shafted by one of your clients and backed into a corner. Im sure you would be more sympathetic if someone bought a horse in good faith and it turned out to be a BoGOf, but that's a totally different situation.


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## Strawbz (28 April 2013)

The owner sounds totally irresponsible and has shown total disregard for the well being of her mare, unborn foal, and you! This mare is in the final stages of pregnancy and you didn't even know! I know you said it is a DIY yard but they still should have informed you.

The advice given is great and personally I would give her a months notice to leave. 

Be wary when you check on your insurance too. 'Hi NFU, it turns out a mare on my yard is in foal, am I covered?' 'I'm sorry Mr/Mrs ChasingMyTail, you are not covered and your current policy is now invalid. Your new policy to cover the mare will be an extra £1500 to be paid in the next 24 hours.'


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## Elsiecat (28 April 2013)

This may have already been said BUT -
I reckon the owner has only told you now as she thinks its too late to be told to have her foal elsewhere.
Perhaps you could speak to someone who really knows about breeding and see if she can still be moved at this stage?

Could you not tell her to sort her own field out and that she has to sign a disclaimer that any injury to foal or mare in that field is accountable by her and her only?


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## micramadam (28 April 2013)

I'm not a yard owner, I'm a livery and I have to agree with HBM1. I think it's very dishonest of the livery to spring this on the YO. It should have been discussed beforehand.
 I bred a foal whilst on livery and this was discussed with the YO who also decided to put 1 of her mares in foal at the same time so the mares and foals could run together and would be company for each other at weaning time. Sadly this didn't work out as her mare took longer to get in foal than mine and foaled 2 months later than mine. My foal was also a huge colt and hers a small filly. However as this has been discussed we still managed to find solutions to the problems and all on the yard were happy. I was happy to absorb any extra costs, after all, they were of my making not the YO's.
Is this the mare owner's 1st foal? If so then she has obviously not thought it all through properly and is going to need a lot of support from the YO. As far as I can see, the YO is within her rights to charge for the extra costs and work incurred as there was no prior agreement. If the mare owner doesn't like it, then she'd be better moving to a yard where the set up can cater for a mare and foal.


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## Equilibrium Ireland (28 April 2013)

I can't see YO's point of view. And also many of us give out about one thing or another. 

Here's the thing, this will be difficult. And I agree once people get something extra they sometimes feel entitled. Thing is mare and foal need more than a small space. Electric fencing can be a nightmare with foals. Then you've got weaning. As soon as weaned it's now 2 charges. Then you have to have appropriate company as well. So this really isn't a little inconvienence. 

While you have a right to be feeling like you do, this probably isn't right for you or owner. You are already annoyed which is understandable, but the relationship is probably only going to deteriorate further. It just doesn't seem like a place for the needs of mare and baby. 

I also propose an in foal exam take place before anyone by a mare. Is it me or does it seem like surprise foalings are becoming common place? If I was owner I'd be trying to find somewhere more appropriate. May not be my fault but nor is it anyone elses responsibilty to get things sorted for me. 

Terri


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## HBM1 (28 April 2013)

It is best to  move with four or more weeks to go, as then the mare can build up the antibodies in her new place.  I know some who move 2 weeks before, but I wouldn't risk it due to stress, mares getting used to new surroundings etc. If she is due to foal imminently, it may be best to let the mare foal down there (after all this situation isn't her fault), and then ask the mare owner to move on within a certain period of time post birth.


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## Equilibrium Ireland (28 April 2013)

That should be CAN see YO's point of view.

Terri


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## Equilibrium Ireland (28 April 2013)

In the TB world people move mare's days and a week from foaling. They foal normal. Not the way I'd do it but it does happen. It's basically just a cost saver. Nightwatch is expensive. A mare will build immunities to her environment 3 weeks out and if foaling out for others I like them a little early but it really is a money thing with most.

Terri


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## Cinnamontoast (28 April 2013)

If it's not too late, I'd get her off the yard. It sounds like a nightmare.


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## ozpoz (28 April 2013)

I'd also be upset as a YO. Livery yards tend not to be set up for breeding and that's why your insurance needs checking. 
I'm afraid I'd be asking her to look for somewhere more suitable, and if the birth is imminent then I'd ask her to make plans for moving once the foal was old enough to travel. 
Both mares and foals should have the right company - a livery yard, with all the coming and going that entails will be stressful for them, and the other owners.

Incredibly irresponsible of the owner, imo.


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## Tnavas (28 April 2013)

New contract - No foals - that's what is in mine! I have council grazing and our contract is really quite strict.

Is there any particular reason the paddock is not in use and needing clearing? Once cleared will it be safe for the foal, if not then you need to tell her that she will have to find alternative grazing as you are not set up for a foal. While mine have never been a problem there are some that just have to get into every bit of mischief possible.

It is advisable to have the mare moved at least 4 weeks prior to foaling so that they build up immunity to their surroundings - helps to protect the foal.


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## JenJ (28 April 2013)

Well presumably if she's doubling her number of horses you can double the money she pays you?


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## quirky (28 April 2013)

Delicious_D said:



			I assume the mare owner hasn't been having the vet out for checks/ vaccinations.  so sad and irresponsible.
		
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Eh !
How have you managed to reach that conclusion?


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## Tnavas (28 April 2013)

JenJ said:



			Well presumably if she's doubling her number of horses you can double the money she pays you?
		
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You cannot charge grazing for a foal until it's 6 months old - there's a law somewhere but no idea where I'd find it now.


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## FreddiesGal (28 April 2013)

quirky said:



			Eh !
How have you managed to reach that conclusion?
		
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I thought the exact same thing. God Almighty, some people on here really do like to jump ahead of the story.

OP, if you're that annoyed ask her to leave. I'm sorry but you don't sound very 'friendly' to me, or professional for that matter.


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## WelshD (28 April 2013)

I think it's an ok assumption to make even if not true

The owner planned the pregnancy and has managed to keep it secret throughout

Regular vets check ups etc would have surely started alarm bells ringing or tongues wagging


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## quirky (28 April 2013)

WelshD said:



			I think it's an ok assumption to make even if not true

The owner planned the pregnancy and has managed to keep it secret throughout

Regular vets check ups etc would have surely started alarm bells ringing or tongues wagging
		
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Assuming the mare was scanned in foal at the stud, are there any other regular checks needed?

I was on a DIY yard which was a stable block and land behind a man's house. He had absolutely nothing to do with the yard and wouldn't have known who was who coming and going.
Seeing as the yard here is purely DIY, maybe it is a similar scenario.


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## MerrySherryRider (28 April 2013)

The owner of the pony sounds like an irresponsible nightmare. If the yard is not suitable for foals, then why does she expect you to provide suitable facilties without discussing it . Breathtakingly rude.
 Get rid.


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## Spring Feather (28 April 2013)

If you don't want to clear the land and fence as another paddock then tell the owner that what you see is what you get!  If you don't want foals on your yard then amend your terms and conditions and give the owner notice to move on.  It doesn't sound like you are set up to cater to foals, nor do you sound like you want them, so forget about writing notes and all that, just go and speak to the lady and tell her how it is.


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## Hippona (28 April 2013)

Just a pondering.....where did YO think the mare had gone off to, when she went away to stud? Did the livery lie about it?


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## megwan1 (28 April 2013)

Elsiecat said:



			If you've got a spare field that isn't currently in usable condition (so I assume its just stood there used for nothing) I don't see the problem with her using it, especially if she's paying extra! 
Sure, she should have told you earlier. But perhaps she didn't know herself?
You come across as a YO that I'd run a mile from
		
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just because the field isnt being used for liveries doesnt mean it doesnt have a purpose or a use, hay field perhaps? or machinery parking?


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## pippixox (28 April 2013)

im quite shocked someone would sneak a mare off to a stud and back without mentioning it! especially when at a small diy livery where everyone is normally going to be chatting about comings and goings!
ive never heard the first 6 months no charge rule?
personally, regardless of the fact it is a foal, when it arrives it is just like another horse and she needs to pay whatever you would charge for that extra field, and like others have said the cost of getting it safe and useable.
if she needs extra help you have to charge, as it is a business afterall. if she had be open before she even took the mare to stud she would of had you in a much better mood and even willing to help, but not having been so decietful to you.
i would be tempted to ask her to leave as she clearly has no respect


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## HBM1 (28 April 2013)

Hippona said:



			Just a pondering.....where did YO think the mare had gone off to, when she went away to stud? Did the livery lie about it?
		
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It is not uncommon for mares to be driven to stud, inseminated, and driven home again.  If the pony was regularly out and about it would not raise suspicion, or maybe this sneaky pony owner even did it when she knew no one would be around.


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## Hippona (28 April 2013)

Oh, ok......I somehow thought they were gone for days/ weeks
All very underhanded, anyhow...


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## Gingerwitch (28 April 2013)

Just give her her notice -end of.


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## Clava (28 April 2013)

Delicious_D said:



			It is a bit cheeky. By personally I think your attitude stinks coming on here moaning about a business client. I hope she finds a better yard. 

Livery yards are a business not a right, change her more which is acceptable as obviously there will be more tailored needs or let her find somewhere else but tbh a heavily pregnant mare should be kept calm.
		
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I have to agree, one of my brother's liveries has found out her mare is a bogof and we are trying to provide a safe area for her to foal. If there are costs then charge them, but don't moan about it.


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## night_mare (28 April 2013)

I assume you charge for each livery per horse, therefore as soon as the foal arrives it is an additional horse that you'd be charging livery for so you'd be getting some additional income.

If you intended to clear the other field and utilise it at some point in the future then clearing it now is not really an extra expense or extra work, but more a queston of the timing being brough forward - so it would seem unfair to charge them for something you were going to do at some point anyway at your own expense.

If you never intended to clear the field originally but having cleared it for this livery you then used it for others in the future (eg after this livery client has left) then again it would seem unfair to charge them for the cost of clearing it as once done you would receive a beneift and income from the cleared field after they had gone from future liveries (who didn't pay towards the expense of clearing the field).

If however you never intended to clear it, and if you cleared it for them to use, would never use it again for other liveries in the future after this particular client left - that's when it would be a one-off expense just for this client - after which you would not utilise or receive any benefit of the cleared field.  This is the one scenario that I would say it would not be unreasonable to have them pay for clearing it. It may even be better just to rent the field to them (as it is) and leave them to do what they want with it in terms of clearing it, etc at their own expense.


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## Tnavas (28 April 2013)

night_mare said:



			I assume you charge for each livery per horse, therefore as soon as the foal arrives it is an additional horse that you'd be charging livery for so you'd be getting some additional income.
do what they want with it in terms of clearing it, etc at their own expense.
		
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You cannot charge livery for a foal until it is 6months of age


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## katastrophykat (28 April 2013)

I didn't pay livery on mine until he was weaned... Neither did the one that foaled down the year before me. I have no idea about any laws, I just know I didn't pay


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## Elsiecat (28 April 2013)

Tnavas said:



			You cannot charge livery for a foal until it is 6months of age
		
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Who says? 
I can't imagine their being an actual law on this?


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## Choccie (28 April 2013)

Tnavas said:



			You cannot charge grazing for a foal until it's 6 months old - there's a law somewhere but no idea where I'd find it now.
		
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Really?

But the yard owner is well within her rights to charge extra for individual turnout though.  That is an accepted practice in the livery business.

My concern (as an ex livery manager and small time breeder) is foaling supervision. 

Has the client discussed her long term plans for the foal, or are they assuming you will build an extra stable!!!

I wouldn't ask them to leave in the mare had less than a month to foal, as i would not want to be a scapegoat if anything went wrong during foaling.  

I do think you need to sit them down and find out a few more facts and their intentions, then present them with an agreement (in the form of a letter would be fine) to supplement their existing agreement.  I would stress in the letter that you are not a stud and do not provide broodmare, foaling or youngstock livery as part of your service.  Also advise this is a one off and not to be repeated, and the additional fee for the individual turnout paddock which is available until Xdate is £X.


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## HBM1 (28 April 2013)

Clava said:



			I have to agree, one of my brother's liveries has found out her mare is a bogof and we are trying to provide a safe area for her to foal. If there are costs then charge them, but don't moan about it.
		
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An unexpected foal is completely different to one which has been planned behind the YO's back though.


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## night_mare (28 April 2013)

Tnavas said:



			You cannot charge grazing for a foal until it's 6 months old - there's a law somewhere but no idea where I'd find it now.
		
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At the stud yard where my mare went for foaling, they charge livery for mare only when in foal, half price livery for the foal until weaned, and full price once it's weaned.  They did provide services though such as bringing in and turning out, feeding and even when they were turned out 24/7 they did routine checks, harrowed fields, etc so it wasn't just grazing without any services so this may be different.

Until the foal is weaned it's not really grazing so I could see why it may be that you couldn't charge for grazing until it was was weaned - but some foals are weaned at 5 months, not 6 months.  If the yard owner is doing daily checks on the horses, poo-picking/harrowing fields, then they are providing a service and that work has increased due to the foal so it would seem logical to charge something for the additional horse (foal).  If the livery is responsible for checking the horses daily, poo-picking/harrowing the field then it is strictly grazing that is being provided without any services.


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## ribbons (28 April 2013)

I'm gobsmacked at some of the replies here. 
A law telling you what you may legally charge rent for on a foal, what utter utter rubbish.
If I was op I would be furious. I breed,and the set for mares and foals is quite specific. 
An apologetic owner with a bogof is one thing, this livery is a sneaky madam.
If foaling date soon, you have a problem as it would be very unfair to mare to move her now. If it was my yard I would give her notice to leave when foal a month old and cover any cost in labour and materials needed to accommodate the mare and foal.
As far as stinking attitudes go, many who have replied here have a huge one.
You are a livery yard not a stud and you have been deliberately deceived. Get rid of this person as soon as is safely possible for the mare and foal, which is about a month, though many travel earlier to return to stallion, a month old is more than fair on your part.
If mare has 8 weeks or more to go, I would insist on her moving immediately.
Honestly, the cheek and attitude of some people. Just remember who's property it is and who calls the shots.


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## Polos Mum (28 April 2013)

Tnavas said:



			You cannot charge livery for a foal until it is 6months of age
		
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Plenty of yards charge for the foal from birth as the needs of the mare are different after foaling.  Why can't you charge more? (or is this  NZ thing only?)


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## kateo (28 April 2013)

I would be surprised if the government saw fit to legislate on livery fees for foals, there are probably more important things for Parliament to attend to. It may be customary not to charge but that's different.


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## windand rain (28 April 2013)

Moving my mare too close to foaling killed her foal that and a numpty vet.
No foal should be born unless it is wanted, into a safe and controlled environment, a caring experienced owner who makes sure it gets the best start and in a place where it has been agreed before hand as it is unfair to the foal and the YO to be duped into it.
Mares dont need vet care while carrying a foal anymore than any other horse so only if needed so routine worming so vaccinations may be the only vet attention required and that wouldnt be unusual. My mares were away for 6 months to be covered but foaled at home. Foals are notorious for being accident prone and does she have a plan in place for losing the mare as it is a high possibility after all mares have a high neonatal death rate and dying during delivery 
Not for the feint heated if you love your mare too much to lose it dont ever di it. I only had one highland foal as they are a rare breed I adore my mare but felt duty bound to give her the chance to promote the breed and luckily I got a filly
Colt foals can be a nightmare as they can cover a mare from an early age so need to be kept separate and can certainly do the deed if they are born with descended testicles as some are it is not unheard of for a late weaned foal to cover its own mother


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## ribbons (28 April 2013)

A livery yard owner can charge whatever they like for whatever they like.
If it's ridiculously high they will get no liveries but there is no law against it. What a ridiculous comment. Many many of my friends providing stud and foaling livery must be breaking the law permanently. Honestly the rubbish spouted as fact on this forum is laughable.


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## Ginge Crosby (28 April 2013)

ribbons said:



			I'm gobsmacked at some of the replies here. 
A law telling you what you may legally charge rent for on a foal, what utter utter rubbish.
If I was op I would be furious. I breed,and the set for mares and foals is quite specific. 
An apologetic owner with a bogof is one thing, this livery is a sneaky madam.
If foaling date soon, you have a problem as it would be very unfair to mare to move her now. If it was my yard I would give her notice to leave when foal a month old and cover any cost in labour and materials needed to accommodate the mare and foal.
As far as stinking attitudes go, many who have replied here have a huge one.
You are a livery yard not a stud and you have been deliberately deceived. Get rid of this person as soon as is safely possible for the mare and foal, which is about a month, though many travel earlier to return to stallion, a month old is more than fair on your part.
If mare has 8 weeks or more to go, I would insist on her moving immediately.
Honestly, the cheek and attitude of some people. Just remember who's property it is and who calls the shots.
		
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I totally agree - some of the replies on here have really shocked me. I didn't read the OP as having a huge attitude problem, just someone who was peeved at being taken advantage of and now having to make allowances for them. 

I run a DIY yard, and if one of my liveries did this to me behind my back (took a mare to stud with the intention of breeding a foal and keeping it on my property, without notifying me in advance) I would be livid. We have absolutely no way of accommodating such a situation. If it was a BOGOF, i'd be sympathetic, but unfortunately we still would not be able to keep them there. Having been a livery in the past, I wouldn't dream of doing something so underhand as putting my mare in foal and expecting the yard owner to accommodate us. 

Whilst liveries are paying for a service, it does not give them the right to dictate to YO's what is included in this service.


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## night_mare (28 April 2013)

Elsiecat said:



			Who says? 
I can't imagine their being an actual law on this? 

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It seems there are plenty of stud farms that do:

Pembers Hill Stud Farm
Per day, mare at grass - £8
Per day, mare and foal at grass - £9

County Farm Stud
Grass Livery
Barren Mare £5.50 per day.
Mare & Foal £7.50 per day

End House Stud
Single mare at grass £5 per day
Mare & foal at grass £6 per day


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## Marydoll (28 April 2013)

Clava said:



			I have to agree, one of my brother's liveries has found out her mare is a bogof and we are trying to provide a safe area for her to foal. If there are costs then charge them, but don't moan about it.
		
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Why shouldnt she complain about it, the livery is well and truly taking the piss doing all this behind the yo back.
If the mare is in a condition she cant be moved, thats a huge inconvenience to the yo, causing problems that will put her out of pocket, and possibly cause problems for other liveries.


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## Meowy Catkin (28 April 2013)

Don't forget that Tnavas is not in the UK. It's perfectly possible that in NZ you cannot charge livery for young foals (I have no idea RE NZ laws).


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## wallykissmas (28 April 2013)

chasing-my-tail said:



			We own the small DIY livery yard.

I was a bit taken aback when the lady in question said her pony was in foal - firstly because we are not a breeding yard, never has it be mentioned nor was a question asked.

Now it due to foal she has asked us for another small field, which is a complete niusence as we are a very busy, so its going to take many hours to clear (at our expense).

We are going to have to charge her for the use of another field plus I dont want  to rent it out for long as I know what will happen before we know it - it will be used as an extension.

I was thinking of doing a letter with the points made out for this field to protect us from further taken the p@ss out of.

My husband is still not happy about this foal thing either. What are the policies of having to provide an additional field - believe me we dont have much free space!  In the BHS agreement nothing is mentioned on this either and it never crossed my mind.
		
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Why not just say no to the other field and allow the owner to move their horse and soon to be foal else where.

Maybe the fact the owner hasn't said anything says more about the yard they are on than it does the owner ......

The owner might have other plans but thought they would give you the option to help them stay on the yard and for you to make more money. 

There are two sides to every story and plenty of yards that would help about. Cutting your nose of to spite your face I think.

You don't mention if the mare has a field on her own with a  stable she could foal in and then move ? Or if she has a big field and the owner has simply asked for more grazing.


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## HBM1 (28 April 2013)

wallykissmas said:



			Maybe the fact the owner hasn't said anything says more about the yard they are on than it does the owner .......
		
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Seriously?  Maybe if she felt that uncomfortable around the owner of the yard, she should not have taken the decision to put the mare in foal in the first place? 
Having a foal is not obligatory.


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## Maesfen (28 April 2013)

Tnavas said:



			You cannot charge grazing for a foal until it's 6 months old - there's a law somewhere but no idea where I'd find it now.
		
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That's ridiculous, there's no law to say that anyone can't charge anything for something they're supplying.  By the time the foal is just over a month old it will be consuming almost as much grass as a pony.  It will also be causing more wear and tear on the ground with playing and running around so yes, it should be charged for just not at the full rate for a single horse.


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## Marydoll (28 April 2013)

HBM1 said:



			Seriously?  Maybe if she felt that uncomfortable around the owner of the yard, she should not have taken the decision to put the mare in foal in the first place? 
Having a foal is not obligatory.
		
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^^^^ this
To me, the livery might as well have brought in another horse overnight without discussing with the yo, announced it needs seperate grazing saying she cant be taken off the yard for a few months, to those who think the yo is unreasonable who would you suggest was in the wrong there


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## Jools2345 (28 April 2013)

Tnavas said:



			You cannot charge livery for a foal until it is 6months of age
		
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so what happens when they are weaned early and sold at say 4.5 months (not good but it does happen)? do they put them on a yard and not pay?

of course you pay for foals


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## Maesfen (28 April 2013)

wallykissmas said:



			Maybe the fact the owner hasn't said anything says more about the yard they are on than it does the owner ......

The owner might have other plans but thought they would give you the option to help them stay on the yard and for you to make more money.
		
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Who or what on earth gives the right to this owner to put pressure on her YO for something that she knows her YO does not provide?  
Liveries are on a yard that they themselves have chosen because of the facilities that yard provides.  Just because this livery's priorities have now changed, it does not give her the right to insist that her new demands are met by this YO.  It is not the livery's place to decide what can or can't be provided by the YO even if they do have the space.  It should be more a case of I think I have to move as you don't have the facilities I will need now thus giving them the chance to offer them if they could/wanted to but to demand they provide them almost immediately is completely the wrong way of going about things.

Honestly, some liveries' attitudes and rudeness on this thread astound me.  You are paying a pittance for the facilities you receive at a fraction of what it costs to own and maintain that property and until you have your own land and property you have absolutely no right to dictate what is and isn't provided for you other than what was agreed in the first place when you went there.


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## RutlandH2O (28 April 2013)

Maesfen said:



			Who or what on earth gives the right to this owner to put pressure on her YO for something that she knows her YO does not provide?  
Liveries are on a yard that they themselves have chosen because of the facilities that yard provides.  Just because this livery's priorities have now changed, it does not give her the right to insist that her new demands are met by this YO.  It is not the livery's place to decide what can or can't be provided by the YO even if they do have the space.  It should be more a case of I think I have to move as you don't have the facilities I will need now thus giving them the chance to offer them if they could/wanted to but to demand they provide them almost immediately is completely the wrong way of going about things.

Honestly, some liveries' attitudes and rudeness on this thread astound me.  You are paying a pittance for the facilities you receive at a fraction of what it costs to own and maintain that property and until you have your own land and property you have absolutely no right to dictate what is and isn't provided for you other than what was agreed in the first place when you went there.
		
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^^^THIS!!! Oh so well said!!


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## wallykissmas (28 April 2013)

Maesfen said:



			Who or what on earth gives the right to this owner to put pressure on her YO for something that she knows her YO does not provide?  
Liveries are on a yard that they themselves have chosen because of the facilities that yard provides.  Just because this livery's priorities have now changed, it does not give her the right to insist that her new demands are met by this YO.  It is not the livery's place to decide what can or can't be provided by the YO even if they do have the space.  It should be more a case of I think I have to move as you don't have the facilities I will need now thus giving them the chance to offer them if they could/wanted to but to demand they provide them almost immediately is completely the wrong way of going about things.

Honestly, some liveries' attitudes and rudeness on this thread astound me.  You are paying a pittance for the facilities you receive at a fraction of what it costs to own and maintain that property and until you have your own land and property you have absolutely no right to dictate what is and isn't provided for you other than what was agreed in the first place when you went there.
		
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Has the owner asked for another field or demanded. I don't understand why come on here slagging off a paying customer who has asked for something else's . Simply say no.....

I'm not a livery either if its me your referring too.


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## Hippona (28 April 2013)

I'm not a livery either....

I also can't quite get my head around why,if the yard is as happy and friendly as YO states, the livery felt the "need" to go behind YOs back..not saying she was justified at all, far from from it.....Just all a bit odd.
Two choices...ask her to leave, or charge appropriately..... don't see what all the fuss is about TBH...


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## Elsiecat (28 April 2013)

I'm not a livery either..


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## Meowy Catkin (28 April 2013)

Hippona said:



			I also can't quite get my head around why,if the yard is as happy and friendly as YO states, the livery felt the "need" to go behind YOs back..not saying she was justified at all, far from from it.....Just all a bit odd.
Two choices...ask her to leave, or charge appropriately..... don't see what all the fuss is about TBH...
		
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The OP's hay thread was an odd one too.


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## Clava (28 April 2013)

Marydoll said:



			Why shouldnt she complain about it, the livery is well and truly taking the piss doing all this behind the yo back.
If the mare is in a condition she cant be moved, thats a huge inconvenience to the yo, causing problems that will put her out of pocket, and possibly cause problems for other liveries.
		
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Don't be so ridiculous, the YO can ask any mare that isn't actually in labour to move and presummably the birth is not immenent as preparing this field is going to take time. The YO makes the rules and gets paid for want they want to provide (no need for them to be go of pocket at all). Liveries dictate nothing as they can always be asked to leave.


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## ribbons (28 April 2013)

Delicious D, I can't quote on phone but it was you on page one that accused op of having an attitude that stinks and she shouldn't come on here moaning about a paying customer. Whether you thought it a bogof or not you clearly felt the livery was king because she paid and the op should bend over backwards to accommodate her. That is the attitude that stinks, and the reason I would never again have liveries.
Maesfen is spot on, when people own their own land, maintain that property and put up with narky owners who expect the world for a few quid then they call the shots.
Every single horse owner needs to remember livery customers are 10 a penny, finding a good yard to keep your horse is like gold dust. 
I have acres of land and Plenty of empty stables. I graze sheep for a local farmer for nothing and store stuff in stables before I'd have people using my land and facilities trying to tell me what 
they're entitled to. I've had liveries in the past and if they're not moaning about something they're bitching amongst each other.
Like I said, I breed. My yard is ultra safe to accommodate my foals and youngstock, fencing perfect, pasture well cared for. A full sized school, electric, water, 
Lorry parking, CCTV etc etc. But it was never enough for some. They pay me 25 quid and think they own the place. 
They soon remembered who owned it when I closed it and realised what they had had. 
I now have mine and a friends 2.
It's bliss.
So all you lot telling op she is selfish, thoughtless and should be grateful sneaky livery offered her this "wonderful opportunity" to have another horse on the place, and earn more money (ha ha). THINK ON, you would all be up the creek without livery yard owners. Their property enables you to keep your horse.
If you don't like the service your getting, move, simple.


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## Clava (28 April 2013)

ribbons said:



			If you don't like the service your getting, move, simple.
		
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...and if you don't like your liveries ask them to leave, (a better option than moaning about them on a forum I think).


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## Marydoll (28 April 2013)

Clava said:



			Don't be so ridiculous, the YO can ask any mare that isn't actually in labour to move and presummably the birth is not immenent as preparing this field is going to take time. The YO makes the rules and gets paid for want they want to provide (no need for them to be go of pocket at all). Liveries dictate nothing as they can always be asked to leave.
		
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Why am i ridiculous, because i disagree with you ??
If you can prepare a field for a mare and foal without being out of pocket, good for you, the yo has said she'd be out of pocket, thats the person id listen to in this story over your statement, and for what ?? A livery who has went behind hers, and the other liverys backs to do as she pleases, not giving a toss for the mare or foal by the sound of it,or she'd have ensured everything was in place before setting out on this venture instead of expecting others to put up and sort things out for her. Further back in the thread, it is stated the mare is to far on to be asked to move, as indeed others have stated theyve had foals die after mares being asked to move to late into term, so please refrain from trying to paint me as ridiculous when it appears more to be a hat you should be wearing in this instance, it sounds very much like this poor yo is dammed if she does and dammed if she doesnt, because some inconsiderate livery has decided the yo has the land to accommodate her and a foal. If she was asked to leave and the foal died, again its the yo going to be made to be the bad one.


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## Victoria25 (28 April 2013)

Im on a small private diy yard and I checked with my yo before even considering breeding from my girl. I put my own post/rail fencing up within the main turnout field but Im lucky our yo lets us treat the place as our own. Im not being charged until baby needs its own stable.


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## brucethegypsycob (28 April 2013)

Delicious_D said:



			It is a bit cheeky. By personally I think your attitude stinks coming on here moaning about a business client. I hope she finds a better yard. 

Livery yards are a business not a right, change her more which is acceptable as obviously there will be more tailored needs or let her find somewhere else but tbh a heavily pregnant mare should be kept calm.
		
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As above.


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## FreddiesGal (28 April 2013)

Clava said:



			...and if you don't like your liveries ask them to leave, (a better option than moaning about them on a forum I think).
		
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Wrote the exact same thing then saw your own post!


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## Clava (28 April 2013)

Marydoll said:



			Why am i ridiculous, because i disagree with you ??
If you can prepare a field for a mare and foal without being out of pocket, good for you, the yo has said she'd be out of pocket, thats the person id listen to in this story over your statement, and for what ??.
		
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Ridiculous that the YO needs to be out of pocket, she can charge any extra she likes and as this owner apparently can't move her mare she will be stuck paying whatever the YO likes for these extras.


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## Queenbee (28 April 2013)

kateo said:



			You can do whatever you want, give her what she wants or don't or give her notice to leave and tell her that your yard is not suitable for a foal.
		
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Hippona said:



			Well....you never know, you may be lucky....she may find a more welcoming yard on which to spend her money.
		
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Elsiecat said:



			If you've got a spare field that isn't currently in usable condition (so I assume its just stood there used for nothing) I don't see the problem with her using it, especially if she's paying extra! 
Sure, she should have told you earlier. But perhaps she didn't know herself?
You come across as a YO that I'd run a mile from
		
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horsesatemymoney said:



			Bit unreasonable on her part,but she is your customer- you sound a bit abrasive, maybe why she hasn't been open with you?
		
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All of the above I'm afraid.


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## tessybear (28 April 2013)

If you are willing to keep foal then charge accordingly they are a pain in the backside and require a lot of attention to check they haven't got themselves in some form of trouble they are drawn to dangerous situation 

However if not ask them to move the owner was the one who went behind your back so ultimately it will be her foal and mare at risk.

But i agree about being careful how your word this on here, its very easy for said livery to log on and spoil your reputation and business.


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## Queenbee (28 April 2013)

Hmm,  just read some more of the thread... Tricky and yes I'd be ticked off that it was a planned foal and livery wasn't upfront about this, but your choice is simple, give notice or accommodate.  If it was me, as a livery I'd be pitching in to help yo sort the other field, clear it, check boundaries etc.


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## Shadow the Reindeer (28 April 2013)

Bl***y h***! How many yards charge £25 INCLUDING hay ? 
I think the YO is well within their rights to tell the livery where to go. Their yard, their rules, if you can't follow it, you know where the door is.


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## Shadow the Reindeer (28 April 2013)

Delicious_D said:



			With hay being how expensive it is, i could imagine many businesses breaking even on £25 pw.
		
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Ours has just gone up, but like I keep saying to the Yo, quality is better than cheap poor quality hay/haylage.


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## Tinypony (28 April 2013)

Hmm...  a grad total of 4 posts by op and both guaranteed to start a bun fight.  A yard that only charges £25 pw including hay?  Really?  A YO that thinks horses could stay in all night with nothing.  Hmmm... that's all...
I honestly can't see how anyone could identify a yard from these posts though, so no point getting breeches in a twist about that.


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## Goldenstar (28 April 2013)

OP I would be very cautious about having a foal on a DIY if the owner is not experianced.
I would lay out in writing the following
the charge you are going to make to the separate paddock.
I would insisit that foal is haltered a once and taught to lead immediatly .
I would lay down that the foal must be weaned by so many months ( you chose ) and say that full livery cost must be paid from this date .
I would lay down how you expect the weaning to be done.
I would also charge extra for the foals livery while it's at foot.
I don't know what type of yard you run if there children ar weekends and evenings or if it's horses in work or grass type livery but foals can be a pain and the combination of other liverys and an inexperianced owner could make for a fraught time for.
I have always been charged extra for the foal  when a mare was in livery at stud with a foal at foot .
Mares often travel to stud quite close to foaling so they can see the stallion on there foaling heat, so unless foaling is very close it should not be a problem.
It's your yard if you don't want a foalserve notice no one should have to have situations they don't want on their own yard.


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## FreddiesGal (28 April 2013)

Goldenstar said:



*I would insisit that foal is haltered a once and taught to lead immediatly .*
I would lay down that the foal must be weaned by so many months ( you chose ) and say that full livery cost must be paid from this date .
*I would lay down how you expect the weaning to be done.*
I would also charge extra for the foals livery while it's at foot.
I don't know what type of yard you run if there children ar weekends and evenings or if it's horses in work or grass type livery but foals can be a pain and the combination of other liverys and an inexperianced owner could make for a fraught time for.
		
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Why and why? The yard is 'yours', not the foal.


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## Queenbee (28 April 2013)

Shadeyoak said:



			Bl***y h***! How many yards charge £25 INCLUDING hay ? 
I think the YO is well within their rights to tell the livery where to go. Their yard, their rules, if you can't follow it, you know where the door is.
		
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Different subject from op but I pay 27.50 per week, including hay, individual turnout, ad lib hay all year round. We generally stable during the day in the summer but if we don't, that does not affect our entitlement to hay.  In my opinion prices should not change from summer to winter, it should be a flat rate all year round which takes into account the expense and needs all year and is charged per week accordingly.  In the winter our horses eat more hay, in the summer. They eat less, my yo could charge 30 in the winter and 25 in the summer, but no she charges a flat rate, and our entitlements are the same.  In my opinion even though the livery has been underhand not informing yo right from the start about foal... Yo/op has some funny ideas about running a yard


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## Polos Mum (28 April 2013)

For £25 a week DIY inc. hay I could save myself a fortune in the winter.  My big horse eats a bale a day - even at £3.5 a bale that'd be £24.5 a week - so my stable and field would be costing me 50p a week - bargin.


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## Equilibrium Ireland (28 April 2013)

Wait, so it's ok to have an endless stream of unhappy at my livery posts complete with moaning. But yet a YO comes on here and she sucks? 

Agree with every word of Maesfen's post. Well written and so true.

Terri


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## Elsiecat (28 April 2013)

Tinypony said:



			A yard that only charges £25 pw including hay?  Really?
		
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I was on a yard that was £30 a week inc hay in winter and haylage in summer with straw also provided.. 25 pounds a week if you didn't want the straw but just wanted forage.


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## ribbons (28 April 2013)

E Ireland, I was just thinking the same. Post after post of liveries slagging off their yard, all ok and receiving sympathies and comments of "that's awful" "that's dreadful". "move now, that YO is so bad"
Yet a YO who has been treated like a fool and has the cheek to complain gets taken to the cleaners by this forum.
Said it before and I'll say it again, buy your own land and problem solved. Oh wait, you can only afford a few pounds a week, never mind we'll use someone else's facilities and act as if it's our own.
You pays your money, you takes your choice.


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## ozpoz (28 April 2013)

Equilibrium Ireland said:



			Wait, so it's ok to have an endless stream of unhappy at my livery posts complete with moaning. But yet a YO comes on here and she sucks? 

Agree with every word of Maesfen's post. Well written and so true.

Terri
		
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Yes , I was thinking that too.


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## Nugget La Poneh (28 April 2013)

TBH sounds like OP wanted us to justify her feelings that she wanted the livery with bun-baking mare off. Which yes, she is entitled to give notice to the livery for this reason if she as the owner feels it is not safe to accommodate (or livery not prepared to foot bill for additional work/fees incurred). For me, while a pain, I would rather my YO had the guts to say to me up front that she wasn't comfortable with dealing with a pregnant mare and subsequent foaling, than sit and stew and quite probably make things very awkward on the yard. And make it public knowledge on the web that she wasn't happy, before speaking to me.

And £25/week with hay included? Bargain! I pay £28/week for stable and paddock alone!!

And others have said, the 'fact' you didn't know the livery had sent her mare to be covered certainly reads as if there is a relationship breakdown already. Maybe you knew it was on the cards, and are now just realising what is entailed and rather than admitting you are possibly out of your depth (sorry, but you don't read as if you are a horseowner) you are back tracking....

Make a decision - upgrade and foalproof your facilities and charge accordingly, or give the livery notice and hope no-one alerts them to this forum.


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## Maesfen (28 April 2013)

Terri and Ribbons, completely agree with you.  I think it shows the huge chasm between YOs and liveries, particularly those at the lower end of the cost spectrum and that they don't have any clue at all of what is the true cost of keeping their ponies for the land owner themselves.


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## ozpoz (28 April 2013)

The YO is "possibly out of her depth and not a horse owner" !! shock, horror .. but yet she is showing a lot more common sense about the reality of a single mare and foal on a yard that isn't equipped than all the expert horse owners posting here.


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## Aarrghimpossiblepony (28 April 2013)

Delicious_D said:



http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=458129

What i will say, is this OP seems to want to save money left right and centre whilst reducing the quality of the services on offer. Just caught up on the 'hay' thread. 

Click to expand...


As she only charges 25/week including hay, who can blame her?

Never heard any yard provide hay in the summer when the price is that low for grass livery.

Need extra for your horse outside of the winter months it is included, go buy it yourself.


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## Maesfen (28 April 2013)

Nugget La Poneh said:



			and hope no-one alerts them to this forum.
		
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Even if they did I think the livery would find the strength of feeling behind her deceit and hopefully feel ashamed of herself for acting in such a manner - but then again, if she's behaved like that it does sound as if she has no shame anyway in her quest to get everything her own way just because she thinks she's owed that right.


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## amandaco2 (28 April 2013)

The owner should have told the yo. Definatly. 
Now the horse is about to foal I'd probably allow her to stay and charge her accordingly for the different facilities and thereafter consider if you want this person to move off once the foal is old enough to move...
But really I'd just discuss it with the person in question directly, posting on forums about this kind of thing is possibly going to cause a lot of problems...


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## Coblover63 (28 April 2013)

Her livery may have gone up anyway.... that thread is old!


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## Goldenstar (28 April 2013)

FreddiesGal said:



			Why and why? The yard is 'yours', not the foal.
		
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Because unhalter broken foals can pose a risk to those around them and Op,is a yard owner with a duty of care to the other liverys .If foals are left to long on the mares they became total pains in some cases .
There's no way I would have an unweaned not halter broken foal around other peoples horses after eight months old .
A friend today is trying to sort out his new project a rising three year old still with its mother and not halter broken if Op does not set some ground rules now that what she risks happening.


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## Patterdale (28 April 2013)

Ribbons I totally agree!

We don't, and never will have liveries at our place because although some horsey people are lovely, we wouldn't be able to put 'No weirdo middle-aged horsey harpies who want to run the yard for us please' on the ad.


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## Nugget La Poneh (28 April 2013)

Maesfen said:



			Even if they did I think the livery would find the strength of feeling behind her deceit and hopefully feel ashamed of herself for acting in such a manner - but then again, if she's behaved like that it does sound as if she has no shame anyway in her quest to get everything her own way just because she thinks she's owed that right.
	
	
		
		
	


	




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Sort of my point -the livery could cause much more damage to reputation to the YO than the YO can to the livery, especially if said livery does have the mentality of being owed a right. 

Something doesn't add up to me - could be perfectly innocent in that the OP is angry so not coming across in the most amenable way, or could be that we only have one side of the story...


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## ribbons (28 April 2013)

To be honest, narky liveries who are a pain to have usually gain a reputation quite quickly, and this one is a deceitful demanding unreasonable nuisance. If she's not known by other yard owners it won't take long.
If a yard provides a good service for a fair price any damage this sort of livery can do by bad mouthing is negligible. The best yards usually have a waiting list.


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## Nugget La Poneh (28 April 2013)

ozpoz said:



			The YO is "possibly out of her depth and not a horse owner" !! shock, horror .. but yet she is showing a lot more common sense about the reality of a single mare and foal on a yard that isn't equipped than all the expert horse owners posting here.

Click to expand...

Not entirely sure common sense is being displayed by either YO or the livery, that aside, OP would've got a lot more constructive feedback had the question been posed along the lines of 'Livery has put her mare to foal, do I do A, B or C?'.

Whatever happens, now might be a good time to issue new contracts to the current liveries with the clause about breeding stock/foals etc.

And copy of the current sample contract from the BHS:
http://www.bhs.org.uk/~/media/BHS/F...ry Yard Agreement Guidelines and Example.ashx


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## putasocinit (28 April 2013)

And what is it that a foal who will be protected by its mother, and managed by its owner going to do that will be so shocking and frightening that it warrants so much concern. 6 months down the line it will be weaned and may become another paying livery or sold on somewhere else, life really isnt that hard, hope you sort it out so everyone is okay incl little pony and foalie.


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## Tnavas (28 April 2013)

Elsiecat said:



			Who says? 
I can't imagine their being an actual law on this? 

Click to expand...

Somewhere I have read this on a legal document - it will probably be part of an equine welfare bill - but I definitely saw it - not a New Zealand thing either.

For those of you that think the government wouldn't be bothered - there are a lot of very old laws still kicking around.

The reason for not charging is that the foal will be primarily fed off its mother and weaning was generally done at 6 months of age.

If the livery yard is supplying additional services yes then they can charge more as doing anything with the mare and foal will need extra staff. 

But for just grazing no they cannot charge. The foal is not grazing.


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## eggs (28 April 2013)

All the studs I've known have charged more for a mare and foal at grass than for a mare without a foal at foot that is at grass.

My foals have all been grazing well before they are weaned. Fields still need poo picking


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## EllenJay (28 April 2013)

Tnavas said:



			But for just grazing no they cannot charge. The foal is not grazing.
		
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But it is taking up space - so of course they can charge


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## Marydoll (28 April 2013)

putasocinit said:



			And what is it that a foal who will be protected by its mother, and managed by its owner going to do that will be so shocking and frightening that it warrants so much concern. 6 months down the line it will be weaned and may become another paying livery or sold on somewhere else, life really isnt that hard, hope you sort it out so everyone is okay incl little pony and foalie.
		
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Theyre like bloody houdini, if the fencing isnt adequate theyre out and exploring fairly soon, ive seen a mare go through a fence to get to a wandering foal that got through the fence, ive also seen a foal have a near miss in a field of geldings, only to happy to take a kick at it, because the place wasnt geared up for mares and foals, a bit like the op's place sounds.


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## kateo (28 April 2013)

Tnavas said:



			Somewhere I have read this on a legal document - it will probably be part of an equine welfare bill - but I definitely saw it - not a New Zealand thing either.

For those of you that think the government wouldn't be bothered - there are a lot of very old laws still kicking around.

The reason for not charging is that the foal will be primarily fed off its mother and weaning was generally done at 6 months of age.

If the livery yard is supplying additional services yes then they can charge more as doing anything with the mare and foal will need extra staff. 

But for just grazing no they cannot charge. The foal is not grazing.
		
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A bill is not the law so I doubt the accuracy of your 'legal' advice. Totally bizarre.


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## HBM1 (28 April 2013)

Tnavas said:



			But for just grazing no they cannot charge. The foal is not grazing.
		
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Really? my foals stuff their faces all day long


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## Spring Feather (28 April 2013)

Tnavas said:



			But for just grazing no they cannot charge. The foal is not grazing.
		
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They can charge for foals   Livery stables can charge what they like, and for whatever they want.  I don't charge any extra for having foals on my farm and most other stud farms I personally know the owners of don't either, but we could if we wanted to.  There's on law, nor even guidelines about any charges a livery yard owner may wish to charge.


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## MiniMilton (28 April 2013)

The YO should just say "oh your mare is in foal? How wonderful! Did I mention mare and foal livery is 250 per week? Oh you didn't realise it was so expensive?! Oopsie"


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## Carrots&Mints (28 April 2013)

Why isn't OP replying to those comments?


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## Carrots&Mints (28 April 2013)

These*


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## Goldenstar (28 April 2013)

HBM1 said:



			Really? my foals stuff their faces all day long
		
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So did mine.


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## Maesfen (28 April 2013)

FulshawGirl said:



			Why isn't OP replying to those comments?
		
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It could be called having a life outside of horses but they have answered further back if you look.


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## Goldenstar (28 April 2013)

Maesfen said:



			It could be called having a life outside of horses but they have answered further back if you look.
		
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Do you mean that people do stuff away from HHO , OMG the thought of it.


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## Tonks (28 April 2013)

Sorry, I'm probably being a bit emotionally retarded here but I didn't think that the OP came across too badly or too narky.......just inexperienced.

I would be annoyed if any one of my liveries deceived me about thier mare being in foal. But, I think that's the point - I don't think they would, because they couldn't. 

I do agree that it is unprofessional to put such comments regarding a client in such an 'open arena'. But again, I think this shows inexperience and 'reaction'.

My advice would be to chat to the BHS (they will help even if you're not approved) and try to work out the best solution for all concerned. However, as a livery owner your 'duty of care' is to the animals who are in livery with you, regardless of fees paid by clients. That's why all good livery yards promote good communication and have strict boundaries concerning what you can and can't do.


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## marmalade76 (28 April 2013)

thatsmygirl said:



			I agree your attitude stinks, I wouldn't want a yo such as you after the way that was written. Think we are lucky where we are, a small group of people, do what we want and never see a yo apart from payday. I couldn't be bothered with snotty people ESP if your a paying customer.
		
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Seriously??? The OP has every right to be annoyed! 


Livery yards are often a part of someone's home and very few actually make a profit and many only just manage to cover their costs and in addition to that there are clients who don't pay, trash the place, steal, take liberties, etc, etc, so the 'customer is king' thing doesn't quite work here.

It sounds to me that this owner sent their mare to stud without informing the YO which is simply not on, to me it's just the same as going out and buying another horse, turning up with it and assuming that your YO will accommadate it along with your other! And no doubt this owner expects the mare's livery to cover the foal too in a BOGOF way.

YOs can do what they like, it's their place and there's always plenty of others looking for somewhere to keep their horse so no doubt the OP would find someone to take their place in no time. 

If I were a YO and someone did this to me I'd be telling them to jog on, as much for the principal as anything else.


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## Venevidivici (29 April 2013)

I'm another who can't understand why OP/YO getting a bashing...
Re:duty of care to animals in livery...quite...the YO was not made aware (&hence given little choice) that her duty of care was to be doubled,which is utterly unacceptable. The livery has been wilfully deceitful in this-I don't care if it's cos 'she thought YO might say no' (and..so...??!?) or that 'YO seems snarky/unapproachable/whatever'(and...?!?) So does that mean it's ok for livery to just do what she wants?!
The only relevant fact is that the livery failed to inform the YO of her intention to put her mare in foal&keep it there. Arrogant & ignorant
I think YO is completely entitled to give the livery notice,straightaway. Whether livery has the good sense to leave in good time to settle her mare somewhere else,would be her own problem. 

I agree with others,the livery sounds like she'd have no problem taking other liberties(especially once foal arrived),wherever she felt she wanted to and if someone had tried to deceive me in this way,I wouldn't care if they came on here and saw me talking about it. Hardly as bad as livery actually doing it,is it?!
 It is the livery (as owner of said mare) who has the ultimate responsibility for the mare,not the YO. Livery seems happy to put mare in foal without ensuring future arrangements in place...er,irresponsible,much?!

Good luck OP.


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## Patterdale (29 April 2013)

People saying that she is 'not allowed to charge for foals' are totally wrong. 

If I wanted to set up a livery yard and charge £150 a week grass livery, extra for cobs because they eat more, £25 surcharge for shod horses and insist that liveries only enter the yard if they are wearing flippers, I could - my land my rules. Wouldn't get many takers, but it wouldn't stop me. 

Whether or not a foal is eating, it's still taking up space and being a general nuisance. 

If the livery had a large collection of pushbikes, they wouldn't eat grass either. They'd still take up space though, so she wouldn't be entitled to house them there for free.


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## Shadow the Reindeer (29 April 2013)

My lad eats no more than the Tb who he shares his field with Patterdale, what makes you think Cobs eat more? Just because they're built different doesn't always mean that  They just have a different way of burning the calories off..


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## Patterdale (29 April 2013)

Shadeyoak, I was using it as an example to prove that YOs can charge what they want, and male any outlandish claims that they want. 

I also don't think that liveries should be made to wear flippers on the yard.......


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## Patterdale (29 April 2013)

Disclaimer - I am not saying that YOs DO any of these things.......just trying to illustrate that they are perfectly within their rights to charge what they want for foal livery.


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## Shadow the Reindeer (29 April 2013)

Patterdale said:



			Shadeyoak, I was using it as an example to prove that YOs can charge what they want, and male any outlandish claims that they want. 

I also don't think that liveries should be made to wear flippers on the yard.......



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Ah ok    I've seen how much money some owners pump into their Tb's to keep their weight up... it's scary!


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## Elsiecat (29 April 2013)

Patterdale said:



			If I wanted to set up a livery yard and charge £150 a week grass livery, extra for cobs because they eat more, £25 surcharge for shod horses and insist that liveries only enter the yard if they are wearing flippers, I could - my land my rules. Wouldn't get many takers, but it wouldn't stop me.
		
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In addition, it may be a good idea to demand the liveries but 2 pounds in the kitty every time their horse goes to the bathroom. To be paid within 3 minutes of horse doing said bathroom or the fee goes up to 15 pounds to include penalties.


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## showpony (29 April 2013)

Did you  u not notice Horse going missing for a few days?


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## HBM1 (29 April 2013)

That was covered..pony could have been driven to stud and inseminated/covered and driven home again.


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## Tnavas (29 April 2013)

Yes folks - I know the foal is eating grass in greater levels as he gets older.

Somewhere there is a clause in an Equine Law covering the charges relating to foals and grazing. 

Someone help me here - I can no longer remember the titles of the Welfare Laws concerning horses. I used to have a folder of copies of the UK Equine Laws etc but can n longer find it - it may never have come over to NZ with all my other stuff.


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## Equilibrium Ireland (29 April 2013)

Putasocinit,

What can happen you say? Well I had a foal savaged in the blink of an eye by another mare. So horrific were the injuries the filly was put down. Happened in a split second. Her mother did try and protect her but again happened in a split second. Geldings can attack foals as well. My stepmom ended up in a helicopter to Shock Trauma after her foal squeezed through something a dog wouldn't get through. Gelding attacked and my stepmom through herself on top of him. The pool guy saved her and foal. Gelding was as sweet as they come until that moment. 

Oh it's sweet driving by a field of mom's and babies. Even mixed fields with a foal. The reality of raising foals can be much different. And you only really get this after your own tradgedy and people start sharing their own stories. 

Also headcollar and leading is best done by people who know what they're doing. Pulling and dragging out of foals could mean neck damage later on. Also it's about teaching them to have head collar on and off. Not how to wear it. Leave a headcollar on for 2 days and it's already too tight and uncomfortable. Sometimes I'm amazed these little creatures make it to and through weaning. Oh I know horses in the wild have babies all the time. Some make it some don't. We don't think anything happens to them in the wild. 

Yup most of the time things are fine. But this doesn't sound like a situation best suited to the extra demands of mare and foal. 

Terri


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## ribbons (29 April 2013)

Terri, I'd come to the conclusion those posting against the OP's concerns had absolutely zero knowledge about foals. (which is probably the case with the livery in question as well)
The post by putasocinit has completely confirmed my thoughts. 
A mare and foal in the midst of a general livery yard is a recipe for so many different disasters it beggars belief that anyone thinks It is a good idea.


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## Hippona (29 April 2013)

Tnavas said:



			Yes folks - I know the foal is eating grass in greater levels as he gets older.

Somewhere there is a clause in an Equine Law covering the charges relating to foals and grazing. 

Someone help me here - I can no longer remember the titles of the Welfare Laws concerning horses. I used to have a folder of copies of the UK Equine Laws etc but can n longer find it - it may never have come over to NZ with all my other stuff.
		
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I too have read that somewhere....you're not going mad
Not saying it's right....but....I'm also sure it's true.


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## Tnavas (29 April 2013)

Hippona said:



			I too have read that somewhere....you're not going mad
Not saying it's right....but....I'm also sure it's true.
		
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Hippona - you have rescued my sanity! - if that is possible! It's 26 years since I had anything to do with English Law so just can't for the life of me remember the title of the document.

There are some really weird laws around.


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## HBM1 (29 April 2013)

I would never have allowed my mare and foal, who as I said are on a DIY livery, to be put in with other liveries' horses. I sm lucky in that I have my own family group and dam of foal is head of that group. To suggest mare and foal can just go in with others is asking for trouble. I also do not advocate sole foals but unfortunately my other two mares did not take.


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## Polos Mum (29 April 2013)

If I was required to run a DIY yard I think I'd charge:
 £100 a week for stable and field (£25 for horse and £75 for having to put up with painful strangers in my home), 
£50 an hour for their poo picking if they didn't do it - I hate doing it but it has to be done
£50 an hour plus materials to repair any damage done by their presious
a £5 fine for every sentence of moaning, slagging of other people, giving unsolicited 'advice' etc etc. so at least I'd be compensated for the constant ear bending. 
I'd also have full rights to call vet, farrier, etc administer wormers, cut hard feed, fit grazing muzzle etc etc. as I sort fit if in my sole opinion it was needed for horses welfare - all at owners expense 
So I guess I'd need say £1k deposit on day of arrival.
And I'd charge wonga style 3275% interest on overdue payments. 

That should get me just the kind of livery clients I could cope with.


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## Patterdale (29 April 2013)

Haha PM!


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## touchstone (29 April 2013)

I think livery yards just aren't worth the hassle, I don't think I could stand it!

I was approached by someone wanting grazing for a sec A, which would probably have been okay (small, won't eat much, good companion etc.) They then went on to say that it was in foal and had a foal at foot - so effectively three extra! 

I've also known a normally lovely natured gelding break through fencing to attack a foal, luckily the foal survived but with nasty injuries. I'm pleased I wasn't there to witness it, so I'd be very concerned for safety.

I think deliberately putting a mare in foal when there aren't the faciilites is downright irresponsible, rude and underhand and I wouldn't want a livery that behaved like that.


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## Tonks (29 April 2013)

Believe me, running a livery seems really lovely in theory.....but in practise, it's bloody hard work - for many different reasons to include horse's social lives, owners social lives, owners care of horses....[or lack of it at times], the law which is at best confusing, lack of sleep, every wanting a piece of you. 

In short, it is stressful and unbelievably hard work. We have some lovely clients at the moment, and I wouldn't swap them for the world, but like farming, it's a 7 day a week job without many thanks, all year round and without a break......but for the most part it's my absolute life and when I'm in my fields on a lovely spring day overlooking the Somerset levels nothing can beat it. Just not sure I want to be doing it into my old age!


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## mcnaughty (29 April 2013)

I purchased a BOGOF mare a few years ago - and then had to move yards.  The yard I moved to made it absolutely clear (because I was honest!) that the mare could not have the foal at their yard.  Foals can be a pain in the backside - they are disruptive to the equilibrium of a yard.   

OP you are absolutely right and quite frankly I would ask her to leave until after the foal is weaned if you feel that strongly!

As for the rest of you that jumped down the OP's throat - yes YOU WERE BLOODY RUDE!
and, for absolutely no good reason!


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## LaurenBay (29 April 2013)

I can't believe some of the responses to the OP. 

How far along is the mare? if she still has a while I would give notice now. If she hasn't got long left, I would wait til the foal was weaned and then give her notice. Utterly irresponsible of the owner. 

I am on a small yard that doesn't have the facilities for a foal, I would be fuming if someone lied and had an in foal mare! We would have to switch stables and fields to make room which isn't on.


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## Suzie G (29 April 2013)

ribbons said:



			Terri, I'd come to the conclusion those posting against the OP's concerns had absolutely zero knowledge about foals. (which is probably the case with the livery in question as well)
The post by putasocinit has completely confirmed my thoughts. 
A mare and foal in the midst of a general livery yard is a recipe for so many different disasters it beggars belief that anyone thinks It is a good idea.
		
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Im really worried cos the mare in the stable beside ours has just had a bogof and our gelding has become very protective/threatening/who knows what he is thinking but I would be devastated if he attacked the foal. The YO has said he will electric tape off a separate paddock for the mare and foal but I hope its no where near our paddock as I just dont know what he would do.

Hes never acted anything like this before, he is usually so well mannered


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## pip6 (29 April 2013)

It's not just a matter of clearing the field. The field will need to be used from now to weaning (never good idea to have foal near others, even if mare used to herd). Foals bring on a massive change in some horses, often extreme aggression. Any fencing between new field & others will need to be up to job of keeping them out & foal in. A strand of electric isn't going to do it. Is there a large enough stable (assuming as it's a livery yard not a stud with foaling boxes) they could come in if need be? Is the livery going to do the night checks as foaling approaches? Or more likely given their actions so far just carry on as normal assuming it will pop out fine & they will just find it fit & healthy next morning? Is the livery experienced at breeding? If not is the livery YO? If not who on earth is going to help?

The first foal I bred was at a livery yard, but they produced about 10 foals a year (took in broodmares for foaling), the YO had vast experience, the set-up was for foaling, the fields were set aside etc. Before I even went looking at stallions I consulted YO & ASKED PERMISSION to have a foal at her yard. Only with her consent did I start looking. I spent that year being as involved in foals as possible, to get experience for following year when hopefully mine would foal. It can be done, but it needs to be done right (unless it is last minute surprise then I understand there was no chance to plan).

On an aside, I moved my mare & 6 week old foal (due to work) 200 miles to their current home. They travelled brilliantly in Ifor with partition removed & back doors shut. Regular breaks etc it can be done. No reason you have to wait until weaning to give them notice if you wish. If mare is close to foaling would be hard to move her now. No reason why they can't move to a stud (they think you're a cheap option?) 

Think idea of disclaimer is essential. Foals can get into mischief that can't be thought of, you don't want to pick up bill from vet. Even if you provide field, get them to sign to say you do not deem it & your yard suitable for mare/foal but they have chosen to accept it for that purpose. Good luck.


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## pip6 (29 April 2013)

Suzie G said:



			Im really worried cos the mare in the stable beside ours has just had a bogof and our gelding has become very protective/threatening/who knows what he is thinking but I would be devastated if he attacked the foal. *The YO has said he will electric tape off a separate paddock for the mare and foal *but I hope its no where near our paddock as I just dont know what he would do.

Hes never acted anything like this before, he is usually so well mannered

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I very much doubt that will stop him!


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## fatpiggy (29 April 2013)

Equilibrium Ireland said:



			Putasocinit,

What can happen you say? Well I had a foal savaged in the blink of an eye by another mare. So horrific were the injuries the filly was put down. Happened in a split second. Her mother did try and protect her but again happened in a split second. Geldings can attack foals as well. My stepmom ended up in a helicopter to Shock Trauma after her foal squeezed through something a dog wouldn't get through. Gelding attacked and my stepmom through herself on top of him. The pool guy saved her and foal. Gelding was as sweet as they come until that moment. 

Oh it's sweet driving by a field of mom's and babies. Even mixed fields with a foal. The reality of raising foals can be much different. And you only really get this after your own tradgedy and people start sharing their own stories. 

Also headcollar and leading is best done by people who know what they're doing. Pulling and dragging out of foals could mean neck damage later on. Also it's about teaching them to have head collar on and off. Not how to wear it. Leave a headcollar on for 2 days and it's already too tight and uncomfortable. Sometimes I'm amazed these little creatures make it to and through weaning. Oh I know horses in the wild have babies all the time. Some make it some don't. We don't think anything happens to them in the wild. 

Yup most of the time things are fine. But this doesn't sound like a situation best suited to the extra demands of mare and foal. 

Terri
		
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I went with a work friend to collect her daughter from the local stables to find everyone in floods of tears.   A mare with a foal just a few days old had been attacked by another horse and the baby was kicked in the head and killed outright. The owner had arranged that no other livery's horse go out in the same field and this was fine with the YO, but another livery had taken it upon themselves to turn their horse out too as it was "harmless".   

Terri, I can't disagree with a single thing you have said above.


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## Billabongchick (29 April 2013)

I am astounded that someone would take it on themselves to take their mare to stud whilst on a non-breeding yard without a prior discussion with the YO and I am not surprised she is aggrieved. 

I am a livery and understand that at my yard I am not the only person there; there are other horses, other people's possessions in communal areas and the YM's feelings to take into account with any changes you might want to make to the situation. If I had made a conscious decision (or ended up with a BOGOF by mishap) I would absolutely expect to either pay extra for the hassle or if the yard were not able to easily adapt/it would cause issues with other horses there then I would accept that the horse would need to be moved to a more suitable place. A foal isn't a toy and needs appropriate care and facilities. 

If it isn't too late I would give notice for the above reasons or if not then charge for time spent foal-proofing and put in place rules as to how the foal is moved around/handled for the safety of it and other liveries once it arrives and grows bigger.


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## Honey08 (29 April 2013)

Polos Mum said:



			If I was required to run a DIY yard I think I'd charge:
 £100 a week for stable and field (£25 for horse and £75 for having to put up with painful strangers in my home), 
£50 an hour for their poo picking if they didn't do it - I hate doing it but it has to be done
£50 an hour plus materials to repair any damage done by their presious
a £5 fine for every sentence of moaning, slagging of other people, giving unsolicited 'advice' etc etc. so at least I'd be compensated for the constant ear bending. 
I'd also have full rights to call vet, farrier, etc administer wormers, cut hard feed, fit grazing muzzle etc etc. as I sort fit if in my sole opinion it was needed for horses welfare - all at owners expense 
So I guess I'd need say £1k deposit on day of arrival.
And I'd charge wonga style 3275% interest on overdue payments. 

That should get me just the kind of livery clients I could cope with.
		
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Fantastic,  you are the first person in five years who has made me reconsider opening my yard to DIYs again - but you'd have to be manager!

ps, I used to charge £25/wk including hay, which made us jack after you added up maintenance and general stress!  We lasted about 18 months before we gave up doing DIY and kept our lovely yard for ourselves!

I am a BHSAI with her own yard, complete with foaling box and fields of my own, yet when I was trying to get my mare in foal, I fully intended to return the mare to stud on grass livery for a few months, to use the experience of the stud and to know that the foal would be socialising with other youngsters etc.  

The livery in question is either a total idiot or very rude, and neither type are the ideal livery!


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## ribbons (29 April 2013)

There is a lot of sense being posted here by people who have knowledge and experience of mares and foals, and totally understand the OP's problem with this situation. 
Thank god it counter balances the rest of the nonsense being posted by those without a clue about breeding. It really makes my blood boil to think someone considering breeding for the first time will think it's a walk in the park after reading some people's comments here that it's not a problem and op should not be so nasty.
Like I said, thank god there is enough fact being posted from those with knowledge to dispel that sort of nonsense.
The day you need to be licensed and qualified to breed horses is long over due. The real loser in all this is that poor mare and her forthcoming foal, belonging to such an idiot.
God I'm cross, and it's nothing to do with me.


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## Polos Mum (29 April 2013)

Honey08 said:



			Fantastic,  you are the first person in five years who has made me reconsider opening my yard to DIYs again - but you'd have to be manager!
		
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Thanks - but it's sad really, I had a lovely retirement livery here for years that worked wonderfully, then 5 weeks with a nightmare 'friend' who was desporate while she moved house and I'd never never do it again. 

I have 7 stables 12 acres floodlit school etc and just my 2 and it'd be nice to have someone to compete/ hack with and to get a bit of cover for a holiday (I think that's the word for the time when you don't do horses - right?!?) but everytime it even crosses my mind I come on here read some livery related posts and thank god for the padlock on the gate!

Certainly in this area with the price of food/ crops going up so much and the grief caused by liverys farmers will be shutting them by the dozen and turning the land back to farm land. 

Perhaps in the long run it'll be a good thing as horses will go back to being very expensive to keep but in the short term it'll leave lots homeless.


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## Spring Feather (29 April 2013)

Polos Mum said:



			Certainly in this area with the price of food/ crops going up so much and the grief caused by liverys farmers will be shutting them by the dozen and turning the land back to farm land.
		
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That's what is happening where I live.  There used to be lots of little livery stables around but no more.  So many of the YOs have closed their doors to the general horsey population and are just keeping their own horses there and putting the rest of their land back into crops.  I'm lucky in that I have great owners, most of them I never see from one month to the next but if I had whinging eejits coming here day in day out then I'm afraid they would be asked to move on.  Breeding mares/youngstock are a significant part of my business and I'm all set up for it but I think it is unfair for any livery to go behind the YOs back and breed a mare and expect the YO to deal with all the upheaval and added expense that is needed to accommodate mares and foals.


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## skint1 (29 April 2013)

I just wanted to say that I for one appreciate a good livery yard, I think it's because I keep one of my horses on a farm with a friend where you really do it all yourself and it's hard, and it takes time and it's stressful so the services I get on the DIY livery yard where my other 2 are really appreciated by me and I'd be so sad to have to move. I pay on time, I obey the rules, I am polite to everyone,  I keep out of the way of the workings of the farm and I am grateful that the farmer is willing to share his lovely home with us. 

I think it's sad that so many land owners have had bad experiences that they don't want liveries anymore, I'd like to say the majority of horse owners aren't like that, you can generally tell the ones who are a problem, they have to keep moving yards and they ALWAYS have a nutty or mean YO.


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## ribbons (29 April 2013)

Polos mum, honey8 and springfeather. With you all the way.
My excess fields are full of sheep and spare stables used for storage. Never again liveries for me. 
It is the arrogant "I'm paying, I'm entitled" that have ruined the business for everyone.


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## Aarrghimpossiblepony (29 April 2013)

This thread should be re titled as,
"The Yard Owners Strike Back".

As I'm not on a yard, the thing that comes across is that people want to keep their horses on the cheap.
That seems to be one of the underlying problems.


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## onlytheponely (29 April 2013)

Just 'wow' to some replies on this thread 

As many others with experience have already written, a normal livery yard is no place for a mare to foal. Maybe the mare arrived at the OP's yard in the very early stages of pregnancy and no one else was any the wiser apart from the owner. 

Honestly, I would be livid if I was the OP. You simply cannot use electric fencing for a foal's paddock it is not even an option so setting up a suitable paddock is going to be very costly. If the mare is literally about to drop the poor OP realistically has no choice but to let the deed happen on her premises. 

My only advice to the OP, if she has been left with absolutely no choice, would be to make sure that ALL the fencing around her other liveries is as safe as it can be. Electrify normally reliable post and rail fencing up to the mains with 3 strands and turn it up to full 24hrs a day. If the paddock being used for the mare and foal is next to your normal livery fields I would move everything at least one paddock away if this is possible but I appreciate that you may be very restricted  

I won't elaborate on foal-savaging stories but you need to be aware that some horses and ponies can react very violently and completely out of character when a foal is in the vicinity. Some mares will even break through fencing to get to foals.

I would actually point your livery in the direction of this thread or print it off for her to read, she needs to realise what she is setting herself up for and what she has put upon you. I don't think that you've done anything wrong putting this on here.


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## Marydoll (29 April 2013)

onlytheponely said:



			Just 'wow' to some replies on this thread 

As many others with experience have already written, a normal livery yard is no place for a mare to foal. Maybe the mare arrived at the OP's yard in the very early stages of pregnancy and no one else was any the wiser apart from the owner. 

Honestly, I would be livid if I was the OP. You simply cannot use electric fencing for a foal's paddock it is not even an option so setting up a suitable paddock is going to be very costly. If the mare is literally about to drop the poor OP realistically has no choice but to let the deed happen on her premises. 

My only advice to the OP, if she has been left with absolutely no choice, would be to make sure that ALL the fencing around her other liveries is as safe as it can be. Electrify normally reliable post and rail fencing up to the mains with 3 strands and turn it up to full 24hrs a day. If the paddock being used for the mare and foal is next to your normal livery fields I would move everything at least one paddock away if this is possible but I appreciate that you may be very restricted  

I won't elaborate on foal-savaging stories but you need to be aware that some horses and ponies can react very violently and completely out of character when a foal is in the vicinity. Some mares will even break through fencing to get to foals.

I would actually point your livery in the direction of this thread or print it off for her to read, she needs to realise what she is setting herself up for and what she has put upon you. I don't think that you've done anything wrong putting this on here.
		
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^^^^^ agree with all of the above


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## Fransurrey (29 April 2013)

ribbons said:



			Polos mum, honey8 and springfeather. With you all the way.
My excess fields are full of sheep and spare stables used for storage. Never again liveries for me. 
It is the arrogant "I'm paying, I'm entitled" that have ruined the business for everyone.
		
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This kind of thing worries me. Despite 13 years without having or causing any hassle, I've been officially 'booted out' of my rented land when the owner died and I really think that gossips have been winding up the guy who inherited it all. I happen to be on a yard where the YM is bending over backwards to try and accomodate my EMS pony and sweet itch mare (they're really not set up for restricted grazing or ponies), but I do want to get my own place again eventually, but everywhere I look there are unused fields because people won't rent out to horsey types. People like the OP's livery who feck it up for everyone else!! I'd wonder what the livery was thinking, but can guess that they weren't thinking, full stop!


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## honetpot (29 April 2013)

I to have stables, grazing barns but after a hellish renter last year have decided whilist I would love company there are too many completely selfish deluded people out there and its not worth the risk.
 At least if you did human B&B you would get a decent rate per night, usually pay up front, and when they leave they take everything.


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## skint1 (29 April 2013)

oh no! So sad to hear of all these places no longer taking liveries.  I promise you we aren't all mental and demanding!


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## Honey08 (29 April 2013)

Don't worry nice liveries!  I think that things will evolve.  Around here, a few people have put large shelters or two stable blocks in their fields, and let the whole thing out in a "you're responsible for everything" kind of way.  This is the sort of thing I sometimes think about, putting a two or three horse stable and a store in my bottom field of 4 acres with a river, and letting it to one person..


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## mynutmeg (29 April 2013)

Honey08 said:



			Don't worry nice liveries!  I think that things will evolve.  Around here, a few people have put large shelters or two stable blocks in their fields, and let the whole thing out in a "you're responsible for everything" kind of way.  This is the sort of thing I sometimes think about, putting a two or three horse stable and a store in my bottom field of 4 acres with a river, and letting it to one person..
		
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I would love this!


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## Spring Feather (29 April 2013)

Honey08 said:



			Don't worry nice liveries!  I think that things will evolve.  Around here, a few people have put large shelters or two stable blocks in their fields, and let the whole thing out in a "you're responsible for everything" kind of way.  This is the sort of thing I sometimes think about, putting a two or three horse stable and a store in my bottom field of 4 acres with a river, and letting it to one person..
		
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I've done that with three of my pasture fields.  One lady has 6 horses in one field, the other has 8 horses split into 2 fields.  They still have use of all facilities but they pay field rent and they come and go and do their own thing every day without bothering me. The rest of the horses here are on full care packages so I hardly ever see their owners.  I am expensive compared to most other yards around so maybe that weedles out some of the more troublesome owners.


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## Copperpot (29 April 2013)

That's what my friend and I do. We rent 3 huge fields off the farmer and the stables he wasn't using. We just do our own thing and pay our money. We buy our hay from him and he does harrow our fields for us. We also make sure we keep the place clean and tidy. He and his wife are lovely.


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## Mrs. Jingle (29 April 2013)

I am expensive compared to most other yards around so maybe that weedles out some of the more troublesome owners.[/QUOTE said:
			
		


			Interesting comment. Do you really think that the more a livery pays for the service the less they are likely to be troublesome? It is like saying the more money they have to splash around the better 'sort' they will be? 

IMO that is far from the case, very often it can be the horse owners and liveries with the most financial standing will be the most unrealistically demanding and obnoxious.
		
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## MoonRiver (29 April 2013)

Honey08 said:



			Don't worry nice liveries!  I think that things will evolve.  Around here, a few people have put large shelters or two stable blocks in their fields, and let the whole thing out in a "you're responsible for everything" kind of way.  This is the sort of thing I sometimes think about, putting a two or three horse stable and a store in my bottom field of 4 acres with a river, and letting it to one person..
		
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Agree, that sounds lovely. That would be my ideal set up to find, but there is little available and a lot of competition when it does appear.

I worked on a livery yard, so have seen fair share of madness, makes me try to be really decent as a livery customer now


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## marmalade76 (29 April 2013)

Polos Mum said:



			I have 7 stables 12 acres floodlit school etc and just my 2 and it'd be nice to have someone to compete/ hack with and to get a bit of cover for a holiday (I think that's the word for the time when you don't do horses - right?!?) but everytime it even crosses my mind I come on here read some livery related posts and thank god for the padlock on the gate!
		
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All you need is the right person to come along. I currently have an exceptionally good deal on a very smart yard because I am the perfect livery *inserts smug smilie*

 (but have to admit that if it weren't for the lovely Aprilblossom I wouldn't be there  )


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## Tnavas (29 April 2013)

I have mine in two places - one is very cheap, belongs to the local council, has an extensive contract and absolutely no facilities. However they fertilise the paddocks and also deal with the ragged growth - we had cows sent through this year instead of cutting. Weeds are sprayed for us too at no extra cost. 

My other horse is in private grazing and I pay through the nose for this, I have use of yards, stables, locked tack room, surfaced arena, showjumps, cross country and best of all a 1km surfaced track. The paddocks are weed sprayed and harrowed. We have strict rules though - we are not allowed to bring friends and family around. We take it in turns to bring in horses for the farrier and there is nearly always someone there to ride with. 

I'd love to have both horses there but can't afford to. The place is great but there is one livery who abuses it totally. We are told which paddocks to use but she ignores the owners requests, splits up her paddocks into the minutest areas and then her horses where tracks in the grass running up and down, one you see rearing and leaping around because he cannot actually move around enough to expend his energy. She is supposed to have her horses in only one paddock at a time but keeps splitting them up and taking paddocks promised to others. It's people like her who make it difficult for those of us who do look after their horses.

Contracts are the most important part of having someone graze on your property - set the contract up well and ensure you cover all bases - including what happens when feed etc is borrowed without permission, with a good contract both horse owner and property owner are covered. 

Then keep to the contract.


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## Spring Feather (29 April 2013)

MrsJingle said:



			Interesting comment. Do you really think that the more a livery pays for the service the less they are likely to be troublesome? It is like saying the more money they have to splash around the better 'sort' they will be? 

IMO that is far from the case, very often it can be the horse owners and liveries with the most financial standing will be the most unrealistically demanding and obnoxious.
		
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I'm sure other YOs may have different stories to tell but I can only say what my experience has been of owning yards for the past 24 years.  When I first started up the farm I own now 9 years ago I was the same price as all other places in my area and I had some very needy and inexperienced liveries who were constantly phoning me or at my door asking for help in some form or another.  I got quite fed up of this so I changed tack, doubled my prices and marketed towards a different kind of horse owner.  That was about 7 years ago and I haven't looked back.  I run at full capacity pretty much all of the time and I have very polite and respectful owners whom I get along fabulously with so I'm perfectly happy with the way my business runs now.


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## Venevidivici (30 April 2013)

^^ I agree this can be the case. There is a specific market: well-off clients,don't come to see the horse v.often, (but want to know that it's well cared for all the time they're not there) and that they have good facilities to use when they do visit.


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## Marydoll (30 April 2013)

Venevidivici said:



			^^ I agree this can be the case. There is a specific market: well-off clients,don't come to see the horse v.often, (but want to know that it's well cared for all the time they're not there) and that they have good facilities to use when they do visit.
		
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Well off clients if theyre interested will come to see their horses as often as anyone else whose interested


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## Venevidivici (30 April 2013)

^^^i'm sure plenty do. But there is a specific group that don't. They like nice facilities,nice surroundings,(usually expensive horses!) and like to be able to dip in and out,as their often busy work/time schedule allows. Doesn't mean they don't love their horse as much as someone on £15pw DIY grass livery in a field in the middle of nowhere. This is not a criticism-it's a factual observation.


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## Polos Mum (30 April 2013)

marmalade76 said:



			All you need is the right person to come along. I currently have an exceptionally good deal on a very smart yard because I am the perfect livery *inserts smug smilie*

 (but have to admit that if it weren't for the lovely Aprilblossom I wouldn't be there  )
		
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You're probably right, but for now I'll just stick to boxing out to meet friends and not run the risk of the nutters ! 

If there were a database of perfect liveries I'd have a look but sadly it's often not till you get to really know someone that the problems arise.


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## Coblover63 (30 April 2013)

Hmmm.... I'm thinking troll actually.  OP hasn't been online since posting her second reply on Sunday.  You would have thought she'd have been interested in the replies enough to at least be logged on in case there was something she needed to reply to....

Or she's got a double identity.....


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## HBM1 (30 April 2013)

Or she may be busy


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## Tnavas (30 April 2013)

Venevidivici said:



			^^^i'm sure plenty do. But there is a specific group that don't. They like nice facilities,nice surroundings,(usually expensive horses!) and like to be able to dip in and out,as their often busy work/time schedule allows. Doesn't mean they don't love their horse as much as someone on £15pw DIY grass livery in a field in the middle of nowhere. This is not a criticism-it's a factual observation.
		
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Very true - one of the yards I worked on had quite a few full liveries, some came out every day to enjoy their ride without having to do all the physical chores that go with owning a horse. 

Another family had several at livery but had their breeding stock at home, they came most days to ride.

Some of the others came some evenings to ride when work permitted and usually at the weekend.

They loved their horses everybit as much as those of us that were in DIY just that their schedules didn't allow for all the additional work, they just wanted to ride their OWN horse.


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## Marydoll (30 April 2013)

HBM1 said:



			Or she may be busy
		
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Aye, clearing a field and trying to foal proof it


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## MerrySherryRider (30 April 2013)

Venevidivici said:



			^^ I agree this can be the case. There is a specific market: well-off clients,don't come to see the horse v.often, (but want to know that it's well cared for all the time they're not there) and that they have good facilities to use when they do visit.
		
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That hasn't been my experience. Some wealthy clients can be incredibly demanding and downright unreasonable.

 But for YO's who dislike having people around on the yard, they are better off just doing competition/full livery so owners don't get in their way.

I've noticed a trend in farms with a few liveries increasing their provision to take up to 60 horses and making it the main part of their business.

The best ones are where the owners are quite astute about the type of person they accept. 

 Unless, there are yards out there acting as a charity, I think most people pay the going rate for livery and services, so no one is doing anyone a favour as a few posters have implied.


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## Venevidivici (30 April 2013)

^^ I agree with that too-some wealthy ones are very demanding&often difficult. My point was just that there is a group who are happy to pay their money,know everything's all seen to and you hardly ever see them


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## Venevidivici (30 April 2013)

Horserider-Re-reading my post that you quoted,I can see it would have read more as I meant it if I'd put 'there's a specific market,who are often well-off etc etc...' or, 'some well-off clients'...etc etc


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## MiniMilton (30 April 2013)

I charge a very low rate to customers I know through the RC. I "selected" them (for want of a better word) as they were trustworthy etc. They know they are getting deal of the century so they bend over backwards to keep me happy. 
I only take on liveries to help eat my grass and they help out ocassionally if I'm away etc. By the time you maintain the fencing, spray the fields, harrow the arena etc there is zero financial gain.

If one of them tried to take advantage as in the case of the OP they would be out on their ear


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## marmalade76 (2 May 2013)

minimilton said:



			I charge a very low rate to customers I know through the RC. I "selected" them (for want of a better word) as they were trustworthy etc. They know they are getting deal of the century so they bend over backwards to keep me happy. 
I only take on liveries to help eat my grass and they help out ocassionally if I'm away etc. By the time you maintain the fencing, spray the fields, harrow the arena etc there is zero financial gain.

If one of them tried to take advantage as in the case of the OP they would be out on their ear
		
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Similar to my situation. I was offered the place at the yard I am at because I am a good livery. I cannot afford to pay much for livery (I've always liveried on farms rather than yards) and this yard could charge a premium as it is very smart with excellent facilities. The owners knew my finacial limitaions yet were still happy to have me there for a knock down rate. I had been there before when my horse need box rest so we had had a trial of sorts, they knew I look after my animals properly, they knew I keep the yard clean and tidy, they knew I would pay on the dot and they knew I wouldn't bother them with moans and demands. Some of us know how lucky we are and as you say, bend over backwards to keep things smooth.


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## Tonks (2 May 2013)

horserider said:



			The best ones are where the owners are quite astute about the type of person they accept.
		
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As a YO you just learn through experience - what works on your property/grazing and the market you can/should cater for, given your facilities. There is certainly a wide variety of clients who own horses and who need livery. However, I suppose its the old addage, 'only professional need apply'. 

Your ideal livery client is one who has the income to pay your fees every month and to care for their horse adequately (there are many who can't!), is experienced in both horse care and uses common sense re land management, is respectful and knows what is appropriate and then lastly has good communication and interpersonal skills to avoid problems and then resolve them should they come up.

As a YO you should treat how you want to be treated yourself and somethings you simply have to let go and not take to heart too much (not horse welfare, of course.)

Generally you get a gut feeling pretty quickly whether they are the above or not!

However, generally over the years I have learnt that it's better to hold your tongue as it achieves much better results than getting angry - but I do like to empty Tesco's wine shelf every now and again, though!


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## cornbrodolly (2 May 2013)

Havent read all replies so apologies if this already said. OP - you are more than justified in being annoyed. You may well be lumbered with a foal...then a yearling....and so on. Youngsters need careful handling , which often isnt given by their owners , and you will find yourself doing much extra work. 
 My sister inlaw got into a similar situation , agreeing to take a foal 'rescued' by numpties pleading it would be PTS etc. Now the foal is 4 and still living in same fields , but a bumptious nuisance , as owners are clueless. It is therefore s-in-l s problem as she is only one regulary there , and no end in sight as to when the horse goes. 
So OP - give notice on your livery  person before horse foals , and save yourself much agro


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