# Ulcers - horse only getting worse!



## mega spoilt ponies (18 October 2014)

Losing the will to live...

My youngster (owned 4 months) was scoped positive for gastric ulcers 4 weeks ago. Several mild ulcers in non-glandular 'splash' region and very inflamed sore looking ulcers in the glandular area- pyloric region.

Believed to be stress induced (travelling down to me was his first experience of travelling- travelled badly), move from where he was bred into different environment etc (otherwise very ulcer friendly management).

Symptoms- mud licking, balking/ refusing to move forward, pinning ears when leg pressure applied.

So... Has been on 3weeks of gastrogard full dose, 2 weeks of karidox antibiotic (for the pyloric region ulcers) and has now gone down to 1/2 dose gastrogard daily. Also put him on feedmark ulcercalm feed supplement.

Unfortunately he seems to just be getting worse, he is Very cold back tothe point where his back foes straight up when i get on (only been asking for 10mins walk), and he is flatly refusing to move, he just 'humps' and kicks out if i ask him to walk on.

Not sure where to go from here. Vet is a little dismissive and just tells me gastrogard will have healed the ulcers and its just behavioural?

Will have him rescoped in a few weeks. I dont want to keep pushing him incase he is more uncomfortable, its also risking my safety.

Anybody had similar experience? Any advice?

Quite stressed as ive only just bought this horse after having my 6year old pts!


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## catkin (18 October 2014)

Discuss the possibility of hind-gut ulcers/acidosis with your vet. 
Gastroguard is for gastric ulcers, but if he's got hind-gut problems it won't show on a scope and GG won't cure them as it works in the stomach area. There are a number of treatments for the hind-gut but they do take some time to work and what's best depends upon the individual horse.


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## mega spoilt ponies (18 October 2014)

Thanks for the response. I did mention at the scoping 'do i need to consider hind gut ulcers' and the, vet just waved me off saying there was no evidence for this. However, the massess of anecdotal evidence ive read cant all be wrong surely?!

I may try him on a hind gut supplement and see if it helps.

Anybody know if feedmarks ulcer calm / gastro comfort is any good for hind gut?


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## cptrayes (18 October 2014)

kissing spines often go with ulcers, the ulcers are caused by ks pain. I think you should consider having his back x rayed.


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## Wagtail (18 October 2014)

cptrayes said:



			kissing spines often go with ulcers, the ulcers are caused by ks pain. I think you should consider having his back x rayed.
		
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Agree with this. All three confirmed cases of gastric ulcers I have experienced in horses were also found to have kissing spines to varying degrees.


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## mega spoilt ponies (18 October 2014)

Thats really interesting thanks guys, i hadnt thought of that link, and the cold-back is the strongest symptom by far.


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## Micky (18 October 2014)

I know this may sound daft and I have no experience of ulcers at all but can you also give him natural yogurt in his feed ( one large tbsp), just to help settle flora of the gut esp whilst having the GG etc?


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## alsxx (18 October 2014)

What catkin said. My own horse actually got worse/grumpier on GG despite scopes showing ulcers healing. We later pinned down sub clinical acidosis and I have read somewhere that GG can actually irritate a horse with sub clinical acidosis more. 

You could try equishure - it's the only hind gut buffer on the market, expensive but if that's your problem you should see an improvement. If not, probably time to start looking at other issues.


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## Goldenstar (18 October 2014)

cptrayes said:



			kissing spines often go with ulcers, the ulcers are caused by ks pain. I think you should consider having his back x rayed.
		
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I would not waste time I would do this at once .


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## Nari (18 October 2014)

From personal experience I was also going to suggest Equishure. I also found Gaviscon liquid seemed to help, 40ml syringed into the mouth 2 or 3 times a day & try not to give it within 2 hours of other meds as it can reduce absorption.

I was interested to hear you mention Karidox liquid as when I had some for my lad for an unrelated reason it seemed to help his gut a lot. We'd used it because he hadn't long got over a bad spell & other antibiotics upset his gut, but even so I was pleasantly surprised.


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## leggs (19 October 2014)

was the horse weaned off the GG ? because stopping cold Turkey can even cause ulcers again. GG surpresses the acid supply to the stomach, if not weaned off it hits the stomach with an overdose of acid again.  3 weeks is not enough by far to cure severe ulcers anyway.


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## nuttychestnut (19 October 2014)

Just a thought are you giving him a chaff feed before any exercise? 
Mine had terrible ulcers but 1 month of GG full dose and they had disappeared. You can do a test for hind gut ulcers. 
Mine was xrayed for KS but came back negative so try not to worry about that as well but get it crossed off as well. 
What is he like to lunge and long rein?


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## mega spoilt ponies (19 October 2014)

Does anybody know if kissing spines would be something picked up by an equine osteopath or physio? 

He has been seen by both and they found no issues but I'm not sure whether this is within their remit. Could ks still be possible even after seeing the osteo and physio?


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## mega spoilt ponies (19 October 2014)

Yes, went down to half dose of gg for a week. Vet initially prescribed 2weeks full dose but i asked for a 3rd week atfull dose as he wasnt showing much improvement.

Yes, he is never worked on an empty stomach and gets added alfalfa for its calcium tummy benefits.

He is fine to lunge/long rein


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## Wagtail (19 October 2014)

mega spoilt ponies said:



			Does anybody know if kissing spines would be something picked up by an equine osteopath or physio? 

He has been seen by both and they found no issues but I'm not sure whether this is within their remit. Could ks still be possible even after seeing the osteo and physio?
		
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Unfortunately it is usually undetectable by physios, chiros or vets unless it is so bad that the fused spines are obvious. My gelding had kissing spines in ten places with four fused together. He was seen by two vets and two physios. None picked up on it. One physio actually remarked on how strong his back was. My vet told me it was highly unlikely he would have KS. I actually had to insist on x-rays.


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## mega spoilt ponies (19 October 2014)

Ah thanks, will defo get the xrays done then!


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## Apercrumbie (19 October 2014)

IME three weeks of a reducing dose of gastroguard isn't enough for severe ulcers.  I would also get the horse xrayed asap.  The cost of x rays isn't as bad as it was, and it will definitely be worth it if only for peace of mind.

It might be worth considering a second opinion too.  Your current vet sounds a bit dismissive when something is clearly still wrong with the horse.


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## islandspirit (20 October 2014)

My boy was diagnosed with  grade 3 ulcers in the pyloric region, it took 3 months of gastro guard with 2 weeks of anti biotics to cure them. They definitely got worse before they got better. Interestingly my boy does have KS also but the pain reactions on the back muscles completely disappeared once the ulcers were treated and I know use this as a gauge for how his stomach is doing.


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## mega spoilt ponies (21 October 2014)

Update- my horse was scoped again this morning (3.5weeks after starting gg/2 weeks into antibiotics)

Unfortunately he still has grade 3/4 swollen ulcers in pyloric region :-(

Vet was disappointed that he is not showing improvement.

We are going to continue gg at half dose for another couple of weeks, our concern is that the ulcers may be due to pain elsewhere :-0

Specialist recommended also putting him on bute to see if symptoms (v cold backed) improves? Obviously im a bit worried about using bute as its been linked to causing ulcers but vet is adamant its not an issue :-/

Also having his back x-rayed thurs.

Swiftly heading towards a bone scan... And my insurance limit!!


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## cptrayes (21 October 2014)

I thought Bute was terrible news for a horse with ulcers.  For horses with known issues, there is advice around to put the horse on omeprazole (gg) while it is on Bute.

Also my vet tells me that Bute will not work with kissing spine or saroiliac pain.  If he was mine I'd go straight for x rays.


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## cptrayes (21 October 2014)

mega spoilt ponies said:



			Does anybody know if kissing spines would be something picked up by an equine osteopath or physio? 

He has been seen by both and they found no issues but I'm not sure whether this is within their remit. Could ks still be possible even after seeing the osteo and physio?
		
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Oh yes, it was missed in mine, who was operated on, and in my friend's,  which was so bad it was put down when they were found.  By a fully qualified physio and an osteotherapist as well.


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## mega spoilt ponies (21 October 2014)

Thanks. Well two days time we will xray back and know re the potential ks situation although i think it unlikely, i have put as much pressure as i can manage along his spine and he shows no negative reactions at all -he likes it!

I just wish i knew what was making his tummy so sore, i feel like a bad mum that i havent been able to make him feel better yet :-(


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## stilltrying (21 October 2014)

Hopefully the x-rays dont confirm your fears.

If they dont show anything, it might be worth trialling him on some equishure. Friends horse has serious hind gut issues (see my threads ref Ted), and so far that is the only thing that has made a difference. He too was scoped and confirmed to have ulcers, was given GG, made no difference to his behaviour but cleared the ulcers.  We think they were secondary to the pain he was in from the hind gut. 

Also, bit random, but i will share nonetheless....several years ago now i had issues with my horse.  Started backing off his fences, and ended up collapsing at a comp.  Wasn't lame but wasn't right behind either, totally lost his swing.  Had saddle checked / physio etc etc. and he ended up going for a lameness workup, which found not a lot.  He got worse, started refusing to walk downhill.  Planting, or grunting / scuttling off threatening to buck.  I changed his saddle to a WOW and overnight he was a different horse.  I believe his traditionally treed saddle was restricting his (massive) shoulder movement and causing tension behind the saddle (which got so sore he collapsed).  Whereas the WOW offers lateral flexion.  That is my theory anyway, could of course be coincidence, but i could have saved myself a lot of dosh and heartache!


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## mega spoilt ponies (21 October 2014)

Thanks for the info. He is currently on feedmarks ulcer calm (only a few days in) but ritetrac is next on my list to try in order to try and test the hindgut thing.

Im pretty confident about his saddles (half panel, serge lined, made to measure) so he has massive freedom in the etc.

And on it goes! Ill update after his back xrays

Thanks for all the info


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## Goldenstar (21 October 2014)

Good luck one of my KS horses was defiantly helped by danilon ( I don't use bute) I would do as 'bute ' trial while the horse is on gastroguard if he's better you know you have pain if it does not you can't discount pain .
Have you looked for bilateral pain in the front feet a nerve block is worth ago .


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## serenityjane (21 October 2014)

'Could ks still be possible even after seeing the osteo and physio?' 
Definately- 3 vets, osteo x2 and physio all missed ours- said it was behavioural until she got worse

 'i have put as much pressure as i can manage along his spine and he shows no negative reactions at all' 
Didn't on ours to start off with...then after a while...of course by then it was too late.

'Also my vet tells me that Bute will not work with kissing spine or saroiliac pain'
No it doesn't.... it had no effect on our girl.

We bought ours as a newly backed 4yo, she too was very cold backed, and very very sensitive to the leg. Bucked in trot or canter, found canter on a circle nearly impossible, had very stiff and disunited hind leg action and tight hamstrings. We suspect that despite her management to the contrary (ie ad lib forage, out 247 etc etc) that in hindsight she had ulcers in addition to SI problems and the KS that she was diagnosed with eventually, three years after we bought her and after being seen by many vets, physios and back people over the three years we had her. By the time a diagnosis was made, she was a miserable, grumpy horse in constant pain and was PTS.


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## mega spoilt ponies (21 October 2014)

Thats really interesting thanks, suddenly my optimism that ks isnt a strong possibility is disappearing! Interestingly, the only thing my physio found to treat were 'tight hamstrings'


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## wench (21 October 2014)

I've had a horse with bad KS, along with a whole horse of other problems. I was convinced it was ulcers - had her scoped and she came back clear, I was gob smacked!

Had physio and mctimoney out to her, they couldnt find anything wrong. It was only when we had a thermal scan, then xrays following on from that, that we found she had quite severe KS. Ended up having her PTS, but I did get a massage person out to her a couple of weeks before she was PTS. (I was sorting out the paperwork with the insurance and the vets.) Only right at the end was it picked up that she had a lot of muscle tightness along her back.


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## islandspirit (21 October 2014)

This is not said lightly but I would be considering another vet. You can't treat the ulcers on a half dose and if it is still a pain related issue you need to find the cause of the pain before you can treat the ulcers. My horse had 3 months GG at full dose to treat the ulcers and that was after treatment for KS and SI issues.


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## Regandal (21 October 2014)

islandspirit said:



			This is not said lightly but I would be considering another vet. You can't treat the ulcers on a half dose and if it is still a pain related issue you need to find the cause of the pain before you can treat the ulcers. My horse had 3 months GG at full dose to treat the ulcers and that was after treatment for KS and SI issues.
		
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This.   Did the vet say why the horse is only getting a half dose?


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## kinnygirl1 (22 October 2014)

islandspirit said:



			This is not said lightly but I would be considering another vet. You can't treat the ulcers on a half dose and if it is still a pain related issue you need to find the cause of the pain before you can treat the ulcers. My horse had 3 months GG at full dose to treat the ulcers and that was after treatment for KS and SI issues.
		
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Sorry, but also agree with this. My horse was on 8 weeks full dose, 4 weeks half dose and then 4 weeks quarter dose... this DID get rid of his grade 2 and 3  pyloric ulcers.  They had gone at the 8 week scope but we continued with the reducing dose long after this to give them the best chance of staying away.


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## mega spoilt ponies (22 October 2014)

hhhhm yes, that uneasy feeling that you get when you have done a fair bit of research and feel like you may have more knowledge that the vet you are relying on :-/

I think we are still on 1/2 dose because they didn't perceive it to be making much difference at all so want to start searching for 'pain' reasons for the ulcers to address that. I am also not sure that he doesn't just need longer on the omeprazole as he said he graded the ulcers at 3, but he said he is very conservative and others would have put them at grade 4.

I think what is causing the most confusion is that after a month of gg I am not having any symptomatic relief at all, so therefore vet and specialist are more confident that there could be something else, such as ks behind it all.

I am really nervous about giving him bute 

Just feeling a bit sorry for myself - only had this horse 4 months and haven't been able to do anything with him yet, after having my youngster (that I bred) put down at 6 after 2 years of navicular! having very bad horsey luck for the past couple of years!


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## ceylon (22 October 2014)

Hi - I have just posted this on the 'Ted thread' but then noticed yours - I just wanted to say that I can't speak highly enough that Gastro Plus (Equine Science) worked fpr my boy plus it deals with the entire gastric system not only with ulcers but anything to do with gastric issues. One month's dosing and I had my horse back where stopping using the medication the problem came back.  Also Deborah is really helpful - and advised me what to do - I've never looked back.l


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## mega spoilt ponies (22 October 2014)

Thanks

I think I did look at that one but I think it only has a 6 hour effectiveness? my horse is on livery and it would not be easy to give him more than 2x feeds a day.

Also, I was looking more to the 'coating' supplements rather than antacids as I have read some negative things about ongoing use of antacids and a rebound effect being caused?


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## ceylon (22 October 2014)

I gave my boy 1.5 scoops in each feed (twice a day) for a week and then just once a day after that.  I noticed a difference within a week - he is not so girthy now and doesn't take huge chunks out of me or the stable door when he is being saddled up.  He's just much happier and I have now started him on a course of Maintenance.  I can only say speak to Deborah who can explain how this product works on ulcers/gastric issues.


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## mega spoilt ponies (23 October 2014)

Sooooooo had back x-rays done today, and yet more ifs and buts!

There is one dsp at the back of the saddle area which is closer than the others, not touching but vet said this could be 'pinching' him under saddle.

Although to throw into the mix a very mild left fore lameness which blocked sound (this foot is particuarly turned in)

So we are going to book him in for a bone scan to give us a look at his back and feet.

I did again mention that i wasnt sure 3weeks full dose and 2 weeks 1/2 dose was enough to cure grade 3/4 pyloric ulcers but was shot down in flames. They said symptoms are still there so gg is making hardly any difference and 1/2 dose is enough to treat. 

Vet wasnt keen on blocking back and has given me a week of metacam painkiller. So the plan is to get on him on sunday as see if there is any improvement to the symptoms , indicating pain rather than ulcers as cause of cold-back-ness


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## fuzzle (23 October 2014)

Try gastroplus, mine went threw exactly the same has yours!!!!!  this stuff worked AMAZING!!!!  got my fantastic horse back and been 14 months ulcer free, think its £200  for 1 months supply, mine however had 2 months supply because she was such in a bad way but the main thing is she got better, good luck and please keep us updated xxx


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