# Natural Horsemanship. Is it just a circus act?



## PuddingandPie (13 April 2011)

I am sure most people have been here before on this subject but the more I see the more I believe the "trainers" that put on displays/training clinics are more into money, circus tricks and dominance than really helping people to respect and work "with" horses.   I know that if I use a certain method to get my horse onto a trailer I will have success, rather than because there is a mutual trust that has developed between us.  But strangely I would rather have my horse load because he will do it for me rather than because I have dominated him.  Am I strange?   I don't want a horse that jumps rubber balls, or stands on a platform only suitable for a performing sea lions (which I don't approve of either!).   I want a horse that understands what I want and responds through a good relationship rather than carrot sticks, poking and generally agitating the horse.  I suppose I like "personality" and don't want a puppet.  Happy to discuss, but could I also say that these "natural" methods, in inexperienced hands are incredibly dangerous because you need to have a real understanding of horses to know what might go wrong!  Not here to offend, just, over the years, have come to dislike these "guru" methods more and more.


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## ISHmad (14 April 2011)

Most horsemanship is common sense which some people have in abundance, others have none.  I would never knock all the trainers who hold demos or clinics as some of them are very good and have helped a lot of horses and owners.  The problem comes when people slavishly follow methods without thinking if it is right for them and their horse and will not deviate from that path regardless.  There is good and bad in most areas, the key is trawling through all that to go with what works best for each individual horse.


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## MochaFella (14 April 2011)

I have to agree that the circus tricks type of 'natural horsemanship' does not turn me on. I haven't watched much of the demonstrations, but those I have seen seem to have reluctant horses performing because they must. They do not seem to enjoy themselves in the way the trainers (who perhaps shall remain nameless but I'm sure most of you can supply names yourselves) say they are. I know said trainers achieve amazing results, with co-operative horses in all disciplines, but as you say, they need to be used by experienced people who can read their horses well. And I've seen these people misread their horses mood dreadfully. (someone's going to shoot me down here, I know it!) 

On the other hand, I use Monty Roberts training methods as far as I am able and have had the most excellent results. This is a very different type of training and does involve getting the horse truly on side, which, it has to be said does include being dominant. In the herd, the dominant horse gets the underdog (underhorse?) to do as she orders and excuse me if I prefer to be the dominant partner when I'm dealing with half a ton of stroppy 'I want to do it my way' beastie. I prefer to keep my neck whole. I'm talking here about initial training of wild ponies and of re-training of horses who have discovered they hold all the cards in their relationship with their human. In their book it is definitely 'their' human: the horse calls the shots and Monty's methods are a good way for a novice to change that and get back in control.

For example: the other day my horse decided, out of the blue, to refuse to box. Never happened before. He found that rearing up and off the side of the ramp seemed to work, so after a few times of that, I put a Dually halter on him and he discovered that hopping off the ramp suddenly wasn't possible and in he walked ahead of me as usual in about 20 seconds. We got to the ride on time! 

I am hoping to do the courses that Kelly Marks runs and become an Accredited Monty Roberts trainer, then hopefully I won't keep making the mistakes that I now still make.


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## alliersv1 (14 April 2011)

Glad it works for you.

Is it just me or does your entire second post read like a plug for MR?


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## AndySpooner (14 April 2011)

Another pop at NH, all been said on here before.


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## eahotson (14 April 2011)

Yes of course NH methods can be dangerous in the wrong hands, so can traditional methods in the wrong hands.


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## team barney (14 April 2011)

What I hate is the cruel training methods used by a certain "natural horsemanship" trainer to achieve these tricks (Parelli).

If people want to train their horses to stand on things it is up to them but what I abhor is how most of the horses are trained not to be horses at all, they are trained not to think.

Parelli is based entirely on negative horsemanship, so much so that they even said in one of their videos that horses don't understand praise.  Parelli's basis is do as I say or I will make you uncomfortable, the videos of Barney, Catwalk, the little Arabian all prove this as does any training video/book they have produced.

I don't agree with hitting horses full stop. Parelli followers on the other hand disagree with hitting horses unless you are using a carrot stick in which case it is a perfectly acceptable training method, in fact it can't be beaten.


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## lexiedhb (14 April 2011)

Popcorn and coffee anyone?


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## AndySpooner (14 April 2011)

Wow, team barny, fancy seeing you here, lol.


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## horsey mad matt (14 April 2011)

the only one i like is monty roberts and kelly marks. monty had a bad child hood and was beaten by his father before he was 10 years old he had numerous breaks and fractures. he is not violent and his methods really do work. i have tried alot of it at home and found it has really worked well with me and my horse. obviously it works more for some people and less for others but i am a great believer. i can also understand if people don't understand it or believe in it. each to their own


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## Kokopelli (14 April 2011)

lexiedhb said:



			Popcorn and coffee anyone? 

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I don't think the two taste that great together!


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## horsey mad matt (14 April 2011)

Kokopelli said:













I don't think the two taste that great together!
		
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lol agreee   wrather have galaxy or coke


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## AndySpooner (14 April 2011)

How dare you bring s circus like atmospher into this important discussion. I am outraged, and I think that's a different thread.


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## Kokopelli (14 April 2011)

horsey mad matt said:



			lol agreee   wrather have galaxy or coke
		
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Sorry can't do that but can do muffins and coke:











Andyspooner- I wanted to show off my new smiley faces.


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## horsey mad matt (14 April 2011)

Kokopelli said:



			Sorry can't do that but can do muffins and coke:











Andyspooner- I wanted to show off my new smiley faces.  

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loooool hehehehehe that will do as long as they are triple choc muffins!!!


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## Jesstickle (14 April 2011)

I've been gone for months but nothing changes!!


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## horsey mad matt (14 April 2011)

hah i can do it


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## Amaranta (14 April 2011)

Good horsemanship is good horsemanship, there are good and bad points in both NH and 'traditional'.

Personally I use a hybrid between the two, ie, I take the bits I like and discard the ones I don't agree with - from both methods.

However, I really dislike Parelli.


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## horsey mad matt (14 April 2011)

Amaranta said:



			Good horsemanship is good horsemanship, there are good and bad points in both NH and 'traditional'.

Personally I use a hybrid between the two, ie, I take the bits I like and discard the ones I don't agree with - from both methods.

However, I really dislike Parelli.
		
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you have summed it up perfectly


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## Amaranta (14 April 2011)

horsey mad matt said:



			the only one i like is monty roberts and kelly marks. monty had a bad child hood and was beaten by his father before he was 10 years old he had numerous breaks and fractures. he is not violent and his methods really do work. i have tried alot of it at home and found it has really worked well with me and my horse. obviously it works more for some people and less for others but i am a great believer. i can also understand if people don't understand it or believe in it. each to their own
		
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mmmmmm trouble is Monty's family, including his siblings dispute the fact that he had a hard childhood and was beaten so there are question marks over his portrayal tbh.


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## AndySpooner (14 April 2011)

Oh no, not the family book, this could go on forever.


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## Amaranta (14 April 2011)

Yes Andy the family book, ridicule will not make it go away, whatever you say - there is a big question mark there.


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## DipseyDeb (14 April 2011)

Amaranta said:



			Good horsemanship is good horsemanship, there are good and bad points in both NH and 'traditional'.

Personally I use a hybrid between the two, ie, I take the bits I like and discard the ones I don't agree with - from both methods.

However, I really dislike Parelli.
		
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^^^this for me too^^^^^


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## horsey mad matt (14 April 2011)

amaranta - i didn't know about that!! although he does seem very genuine, you just don't know who's telling the truth.


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## Kokopelli (14 April 2011)

Whether he's lying about it or not it does it change your view on his methods? I think he's a good horseman and has good methods despite his family history.


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## horsey mad matt (14 April 2011)

Kokopelli said:



			Whether he's lying about it or not it does it change your view on his methods? I think he's a good horseman and has good methods despite his family history.
		
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no it doesn't change my views at all!!! his family history is completely irrelivent


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## Damnation (14 April 2011)

Some of the psychology that Pat Pirelli uses for groundwork, I can understand and I agree with but then they take it too far by doing the circus tricks.
The Monty Roberts aspect I do agree with. None of this carrot stick waving etc.
I use bits and pieces of these methods, mainly the body language and understanding why my mare reacts the way she does.
But the circus training is just a no go. My horse in the wild would not stand on a podium and pick up each leg when a big orange stick was waved at it..


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## Amaranta (14 April 2011)

Yes, I am afraid it did alter my view a little, it cast doubts, for me anyway.  This, coupled with two or three things that happened behind the scenes at a couple of demos, changed my initial view of him.  Prior to this, I thought he had single handedly changed the way the US broke horses tbh.  I do still think he has done some good, but I also think he is a bit of a paper God.

What I do believe though is that he did make people think more about the horse and the way it thinks which can only be a good thing.


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## eahotson (14 April 2011)

Well in all fiarness horses in the wild don't have saddles on their backs and don't go hacking,jumping etc. do they?


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## Damnation (14 April 2011)

eahotson said:



			Well in all fiarness horses in the wild don't have saddles on their backs and don't go hacking,jumping etc. do they?
		
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Very good point.
Saddles, bridles and hacking is one thing but circus training I just don't agree with in the slightest, especially since their target audience is the average horse owner..


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## Amaranta (14 April 2011)

horsey mad matt said:



			no it doesn't change my views at all!!! his family history is completely irrelivent 

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, 

It IS relevant though Matt, he states that his childhood made him the man he is today, IF that childhood never happened, then he was being dishonest.  Now if it was only his mother stating that it never happened, I could give him the benefit of the doubt, but ALL of his siblings claim it was a lie, as do aunts, uncles etc etc


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## Damnation (14 April 2011)

His family could not have known?
Yes perhaps he is dishonest I don't discredit that. But how many battered wives are walking around and their friends and family don't know about it?


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## horsey mad matt (14 April 2011)

Amaranta said:



			, 

It IS relevant though Matt, he states that his childhood made him the man he is today, IF that childhood never happened, then he was being dishonest.  Now if it was only his mother stating that it never happened, I could give him the benefit of the doubt, but ALL of his siblings claim it was a lie, as do aunts, uncles etc etc
		
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yup i can understand that and i t is many against one, but why would someone make up something like that!! and also he may be being brave admitting it where as his family are too scared to realise that a memeber of their family could do that??


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## Amaranta (14 April 2011)

Battered wives go to great lengths to hide their situation, battered children however are easier to spot, especially by a mother.  You are right though it can and does happen.  It was just not the revelation of the book that made me doubt him, other things rang alarm bells too.


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## Amaranta (14 April 2011)

Meant to add, his brothers were completely unaware also, now that really does it for me.  Many abused children do slip under the antennae of adults, but nine times out of ten, their brothers and sisters know all about it.


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## 2Conker (14 April 2011)

Amaranta said:



			Good horsemanship is good horsemanship, there are good and bad points in both NH and 'traditional'.

Personally I use a hybrid between the two, ie, I take the bits I like and discard the ones I don't agree with - from both methods.

However, I really dislike Parelli.
		
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On the whole do agree with this, not sure I know enough about Parelli except the brilliant marketing!   However, not sure if it's Natural Horsemanship, but seen this man work-pretty sure its the same person, was in Oxfordshire. Sent him a horse to train; also saw him work with a nervous friend with bumptious strong TB to go without a bridle up the gallops!   http://www.msjump.co.uk/first.html.


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## Damnation (14 April 2011)

2Conker said:



			On the whole do agree with this, not sure I know enough about Parelli except the brilliant marketing!   However, not sure if it's Natural Horsemanship, but seen this man work-pretty sure its the same person, was in Oxfordshire. Sent him a horse to train; also saw him work with a nervous friend with bumptious strong TB to go without a bridle up the gallops!   http://www.msjump.co.uk/first.html.
		
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Aaah Mark Smith! I have had lessons from him. My mare dumped me before a lesson with him so he got on her and she wouldn't move  I got on and all was fine haha.
Hes a good instructor for some people. But never worked for me, he was too fond of gadgets.


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## Amaranta (14 April 2011)

2Conker said:



			On the whole do agree with this, not sure I know enough about Parelli except the brilliant marketing!   However, not sure if it's Natural Horsemanship, but seen this man work-pretty sure its the same person, was in Oxfordshire. Sent him a horse to train; also saw him work with a nervous friend with bumptious strong TB to go without a bridle up the gallops!   http://www.msjump.co.uk/first.html.
		
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Now that's what I call a good horseman!


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## Damnation (14 April 2011)

Funnily enough for a man who advocates headcollars out team chasing.. he can be quite heavy handed. But then your not going to agree with every horse I suppose are you..


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## Amaranta (14 April 2011)

Damnation said:



			Funnily enough for a man who advocates headcollars out team chasing.. he can be quite heavy handed. But then your not going to agree with every horse I suppose are you..
		
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Interesting!  Just goes to show all may not be as it first appears!


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## SuperCoblet (14 April 2011)

My cousin (only 12) bought some parelli DVDs about a year ago, she has a minature shettie, two welshXarabs from the blue cross and have just taken on a 15.2 mare saved from slaughter. She loves her parelli work and has a huge bond with her horses through it, especially since they're from a re homing venter and a bad background. She can get them to lie down, rear up, sit, and all kinds of things from what's she's learnt from these info packs. I'm going over on Sunday so I'll try and get some pics. So IMO in the right, gentle hands it works, and yes I've seen those horrific parelli videos and I personally do not support them, but it does work for some.


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## Vetwrap (14 April 2011)

Amaranta said:



			Good horsemanship is good horsemanship, there are good and bad points in both NH and 'traditional'.

Personally I use a hybrid between the two, ie, I take the bits I like and discard the ones I don't agree with - from both methods.

However, I really dislike Parelli.
		
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Spot on for me.

The marketing machine behind Parelli leaves me cold.  The other thing that I have realised is that the people that I admire the most are those people who are quiet, thoughtful and effective, not egotistical and showy.  

Funnily enough, they are usually the ones with the best behaved horses as well!  Go figure!


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## Damnation (14 April 2011)

Amaranta said:



			Interesting!  Just goes to show all may not be as it first appears!
		
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Haha yes. If you look on his website he visits the Isle of Man (where I used to live) and yes I did have some good lessons with him. And he really worked for other people. If you have confidence issues he is the man to go to.
However I didn't like his attitude of "If the horse won't stay round lunge in side reins for 6 weeks". What about getting engagement from behind?


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## 2Conker (14 April 2011)

Amaranta said:



			Now that's what I call a good horseman!
		
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Guess he wont suit everyone, it was back in the mid 90's and who knows what influences he's come under since then. Been abroad a lot too I think.    Just know our youngstert loved to jump for him, was never frightened (he was a natural so maybe he was easy), and I knew friends horse inside out and he was boss of her and soooo strong.  He gave the rider great confidence-no gadgets then-and really positive results.


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## ridefast (14 April 2011)

Notice how those that get famous tend to have some sob story - terrible childhood or terrible aggressive horse that noone else could handle and was going to be shot?
I however have perfectly well trained circus ponies, and you can too! All you need is my set of books and dvds - only £500 each, and for an extra £1000 you get an apple branch to hit your horse with but only the way it shows in my books - £750 each - if you do it any other way you will not create a true bond with your horse based on fear and dominance.
And now available my very own special apple flavoured headcollars bargain at £3000 each, specially designed to force your horse to behave whilst looking like excitable out of control beasts - buy it now with my set of books and dvds only £800 each, and you will be able to experience a truly harmonious relationship with your horse


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## Amaranta (14 April 2011)

ridefast said:



			notice how those that get famous tend to have some sob story - terrible childhood or terrible aggressive horse that noone else could handle and was going to be shot?
I however have perfectly well trained circus ponies, and you can too! All you need is my set of books and dvds - only £500 each, and for an extra £1000 you get an apple branch to hit your horse with but only the way it shows in my books - £750 each - if you do it any other way you will not create a true bond with your horse based on fear and dominance.
And now available my very own special apple flavoured headcollars bargain at £3000 each, specially designed to force your horse to behave whilst looking like excitable out of control beasts - buy it now with my set of books and dvds only £800 each, and you will be able to experience a truly harmonious relationship with your horse
		
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roflmao!


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## 2Conker (14 April 2011)

ridefast said:



			Notice how those that get famous tend to have some sob story - terrible childhood or terrible aggressive horse that noone else could handle and was going to be shot?
I however have perfectly well trained circus ponies, and you can too! All you need is my set of books and dvds - only £500 each, and for an extra £1000 you get an apple branch to hit your horse with but only the way it shows in my books - £750 each - if you do it any other way you will not create a true bond with your horse based on fear and dominance.
And now available my very own special apple flavoured headcollars bargain at £3000 each, specially designed to force your horse to behave whilst looking like excitable out of control beasts - buy it now with my set of books and dvds only £800 each, and you will be able to experience a truly harmonious relationship with your horse
		
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Teehee......cheap at the price.  Better not get us on the Frenchman with his displays etc....  Now here was a master (not French)...
"Training a horse is not only gaining his submission as it is often said. 
It is also making sure the horse takes pleasure in doing everything that is asked of him" 
Nuno Oliveira


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## fburton (14 April 2011)

MochaFella said:



			This is a very different type of training and does involve getting the horse truly on side, which, it has to be said does include being dominant. In the herd, the dominant horse gets the underdog (underhorse?) to do as she orders and excuse me if I prefer to be the dominant partner when I'm dealing with half a ton of stroppy 'I want to do it my way' beastie.
		
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Yes, but horses don't order other horses to do things, do they? Certainly dominant individuals are able to make other move out of the way with body language that is more or less threatening - but that's it, and I wouldn't call it "ordering", just repelling. A dominant horse can't order a subordinate to go to a particular place, or to come to her, or to start grooming her itchy spot, or bring her food, or lie down, or... You get my drift!




			I prefer to keep my neck whole.
		
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I don't mean to imply anything about your own relationships with horses, which of course I know nothing about. However, I get the impression that what motivates the desire of some people to be "dominant" is a fear of the horse - it's a way of justifying being "bold" towards the horse. I think that's fine if it boosts a person's confidence, because I think confidence is important in dealing effectively with horses. I'm less happy if it leads to the handler being pushy or aggressive, because that's definitely unhelpful in the long run.




			I'm talking here about initial training of wild ponies and of re-training of horses who have discovered they hold all the cards in their relationship with their human. In their book it is definitely 'their' human: the horse calls the shots and Monty's methods are a good way for a novice to change that and get back in control.
		
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I'm all for being in control - in fact, it's essential for safety. In my opinion, one doesn't need to act in a "dominant" way to achieve that. 




			I am hoping to do the courses that Kelly Marks runs and become an Accredited Monty Roberts trainer, then hopefully I won't keep making the mistakes that I now still make.
		
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I wish you every success with that. I have a great deal of respect for what IH does, especially through its network of RIs.


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## fburton (14 April 2011)

2Conker said:



			"Training a horse is not only gaining his submission as it is often said. 
It is also making sure the horse takes pleasure in doing everything that is asked of him" 
Nuno Oliveira
		
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Super quote, 2Conker! Of course, we should not fall into the trap of assuming that Oliveira's idea of 'submission' has anything to do with a subordinate horse's submission to a dominant. A horse takes no pleasure in being pushed around by a dominant.


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## AndySpooner (14 April 2011)

I really like Parelli, works for me, horses love it.


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## 2Conker (14 April 2011)

fburton said:



			Super quote, 2Conker! Of course, we should not fall into the trap of assuming that Oliveira's idea of 'submission' has anything to do with a subordinate horse's submission to a dominant. A horse takes no pleasure in being pushed around by a dominant.
		
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Thanks, yes he seems to have been pretty effective. Think submission perhaps is accepting without resistance. 
No idea what a horse feels about being dominated, it's their reality of herd life, and survival technique-always seems to be a pecking order in a group of horses.  Presumably us humans work with that, or around it.


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## amandap (14 April 2011)

fburton said:



			Super quote, 2Conker! Of course, we should not fall into the trap of assuming that Oliveira's idea of 'submission' has anything to do with a subordinate horse's submission to a dominant. A horse takes no pleasure in being pushed around by a dominant.
		
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Agree here. Words have been a major problem for me especially the D word. 

I must say I like your use of 'act in a dominant way'. Much more descriptive for me.


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## mcnaughty (14 April 2011)

Why oh why does this have to keep being brought up over and over and over and over and over again?

I don't give a damn what Mr Roberts did or had done to him as a child he is a bloody good horseman who has proved his worth time and time again.  So what he has made a fortune doing that I would have if I had been in his shoes!

As for pirelli - erm not so sure - some is OK but most is a load of old rubbish and actually quite dangerous.

Personally I pick and choose what works for my horses from a selection of old school and Mr Roberts.

Yawn, yawn, yawn -  goes off to look at how far the GN debate got...


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## PuddingandPie (14 April 2011)

Have just got in to read the responses to my original post and have found it fascinating how complex each person's reaction is.  I must admit my horses will occasionally bash into me (jump into my arms!) to get away from another in the herd who is about to kick or bite them.  Something I have heard from some of the NH trainers is to never scratch your horse as it is expected that the lower orders should groom the leaders, not the other way around.  I have built more mutual trust through "mutual" scratching and I usually always initiate it!  I don't like to use any headcollars that tighten over the nose or indeed push studs into the poll.  I do, however, have a beautifully soft non tightening halter with a single heavyish clip and a long rope, which is ideal for youngsters as you have more control when loading or unloading, in the sense you don't run out of rope!  I had an NH trainer over to help me load a nervous horse and all she did was flick the leather end of the rope into the horse's face and repeatedly directly into the eye, which I immediately stopped.   I know there are some good parts to NH and traditional methods and as I want to raise healthy, happy and well adjusted youngsters for humans to ride (and had no complaints to date) I earn respect from my youngsters through trust, clear communication...yes and what is that I hear you ask.....fairness and firmness.  Yes I have had to walk away when I feel my patience is running out and come back when I have calmed down but I don't really want to bully, force, humiliate, make them entertain me.  I want a partnership where we both want to be around eachother.  Horses that canter over when they see me because they want to interact.  I never give titbits as I don't believe in bribery.  Although, hypocritically, I will offer feed in the lorry or trailer to show them it is a pleasant place to be and then ensure as smooth a journey as possible to build their confidence.  When I watch these programmes on TV I see horses with submissive heads, ears constantly going backwards and forwards, not knowing what "trick" they might have to perform next.  I don't visit the circus because I don't like to see animals being made to "perform acts".  I am sure I will now be hit with the dressage stick!  I agree with some and disagree with others but I feel we need to bring the marketing hype that is so evident and look at the welfare of the horse.  As has been posted above, tools in the wrong hands can be catastrophic..for both handler/rider and horse.   Is it maybe time for us to embrace the goods bits of all methods and package that up and not sell it for a fortune but offer it as an olive branch to those who need our help, both horse and human?


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## PuddingandPie (14 April 2011)

mcnaughty said:



			Why oh why does this have to keep being brought up over and over and over and over and over again?

I don't give a damn what Mr Roberts did or had done to him as a child he is a bloody good horseman who has proved his worth time and time again.  So what he has made a fortune doing that I would have if I had been in his shoes!

As for pirelli - erm not so sure - some is OK but most is a load of old rubbish and actually quite dangerous.

Personally I pick and choose what works for my horses from a selection of old school and Mr Roberts.

Yawn, yawn, yawn -  goes off to look at how far the GN debate got...
		
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I am not having a pop at any individual as there are now so many individuals who claim to be NH Trainers and many more to be seen on DVD, TV and via the Internet.   All of them have some aspect I don't like sadly.


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## team barney (14 April 2011)

PuddingandPie said:



			Something I have heard from some of the NH trainers is to never scratch your horse as it is expected that the lower orders should groom the leaders, not the other way around.  I have built more mutual trust through "mutual" scratching and I usually always initiate it!
		
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Tickle therapy works a treat 

I've never had a horse that didn't enjoy a bit of mutual grooming, they love it.  I almost always initiate the groom, in-fact I had to stop one horse initiating the grooming himself and I'd only tickle him at my own initiation as he got rather demanding with his grooming, he wanted to be tickled permanently!

I too have been told by a NH trainer that you shouldn't mutually groom your horse.  His reasoning behind this was that horses don't touch each other when together in the field, I don't know what horses he has observed but mine are always grooming/touching each other, even the ones who aren't the greatest of friends groom each other.  

And the herd leader grooms them all and he grooms them often


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## AndySpooner (14 April 2011)

Small point, herd leaders are always mares, obviously no geldings in a wild herd.

No reason not to mutually groom your horse, either someone's mistaken or wrong.


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## Amaranta (14 April 2011)

I also see no reason not to groom your horse, you only have to watch a pair bond in the field to see that horses do in fact touch each other whilst in the herd.  Interestingly, it is the herd leader in my bunch who normally instigates mutual grooming.

One thing I do a lot is scratch the poll and massage the ears, without fail the horses love it, massaging the tips of the ears also relaxes a worried horse.


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## TicTac (14 April 2011)

I like Kelly Marks and Monty, Richard Maxwell and Parelli ground work. I do find Pat Parelli too much of a showman for my liking and Monty Roberts can come accross as a bit ' wishy washy' in his dialogue, but I have had much more success with my mare using NH methods as she was messed up big time by ' convential ' training.

I do find thease kind of posts frustrating though as the anti's usually think that NH is all about one person and it's not.


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## team barney (14 April 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			Small point, herd leaders are always mares, obviously no geldings in a wild herd.
		
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Single sex herds have leaders too, and as no horses in the UK are truly "wild" it is perfectly possible for there to be a herd leader who is a gelding. One of mine is most definitely leader, he is not dominant though, he is just their elected leader.  Even the colts he has lived with respected him and didn't question his leadership.  Mares adore him and when he has lived in a mixed sex herd (at present he is in a single sex herd) he has taken the "lead stallion" role beside the lead mare.  He and his mare governed their herd in partnership.


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## Amaranta (14 April 2011)

Actually I think that this post shows that people do NOT think of NH as one person's method!


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## AndySpooner (14 April 2011)

Cannot really compare wild herds with domesticated herds, the dynamics are very different, but what you normally find is that dominant horses will support a lead mare. Confusion often arises when people confuse dominant behaviour with leadership.


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## 2Conker (14 April 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			Cannot really compare wild herds with domesticated herds, the dynamics are very different, but what you normally find is that dominant horses will support a lead mare. Confusion often arises when people confuse dominant behaviour with leadership.
		
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Interesting; in a dog pack, apparently the alpha male and female may be supported by others, who also keep order in the pack-not sure if they negotiate though!


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## team barney (14 April 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			Confusion often arises when people confuse dominant behaviour with leadership.
		
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As I said my herd leader isn't dominant at all, he is quiet and understated in his leadership he doesn't dominate his herd in the slightest, he leads them.  He has lived with very dominant horses in the past and he ignores their aggression whilst still protecting his herd and quelling their leadership challenges.


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## AndySpooner (14 April 2011)

Being hunting animals dog packs are very different.
Horses being hunted have to cope with this as well.
Dominance doesn't always involve aggression though.
A less dominant horse may display aggressive behaviour for a number of reasons, even fear, this doesn't make it dominant though in the eyes of the rest of the herd.


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## ridefast (14 April 2011)

You can learn how to mutually groom your horse whilst still remaining a passive aggressive dominant leader, if you buy my book and dvd - how to dominate your horse in secret - only £900, and now you get the new bouncy apple ball, to use to distract your horse when he's in attack mode so you can make a quick getaway - only £5000 with free training dvd. DO NOT USE ANY OTHER BOUNCY BALL THEY WILL NOT HAVE THE SAME EFFECT
Special offer - Apple stick, headcollar and bouncy ball selling today for only £8000000 and training pack thrown in for a mere £20000, offer ends in 5 seconds


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## TicTac (14 April 2011)

Katie Price riding at the Horse of The Year Show, now that was a circus act!


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## AndySpooner (14 April 2011)

ridefast said:



			You can learn how to mutually groom your horse whilst still remaining a passive aggressive dominant leader, if you buy my book and dvd - how to dominate your horse in secret - only £900, and now you get the new bouncy apple ball, to use to distract your horse when he's in attack mode so you can make a quick getaway - only £5000 with free training dvd. DO NOT USE ANY OTHER BOUNCY BALL THEY WILL NOT HAVE THE SAME EFFECT
Special offer - Apple stick, headcollar and bouncy ball selling today for only £8000000 and training pack thrown in for a mere £20000, offer ends in 5 seconds
		
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Very good, take it the prices are post inflation. (of the ball)


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## ridefast (14 April 2011)

yeah, VAT increases and all that. Still a bargain though, the air to inflate the ball is free


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## AndySpooner (14 April 2011)

ridefast said:



			yeah, VAT increases and all that. Still a bargain though, the air to inflate the ball is free
		
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Failed, sorry nothing free in this game.


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## Sussexbythesea (14 April 2011)

fburton said:



			Super quote, 2Conker! Of course, we should not fall into the trap of assuming that Oliveira's idea of 'submission' has anything to do with a subordinate horse's submission to a dominant. A horse takes no pleasure in being pushed around by a dominant.
		
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I'm really interested in this issue of using dominance to control a horse having just read Horses Never Lie by Mark Rashid.  I've been thinking more about how - yes I can make my horse do things but I'd like him to do it willingly when asked rather than with a resigned or even sometimes resentful attitude. I'm certainly going to be looking out for the "trys". 

I don't think it matters so much what your preference for training is so long as you don't become blinkered and so indoctrinated that you stop questionning what you are being told.


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## Fellewell (14 April 2011)

I don't think horses ever truly see humans as herd leaders (try hanging on to yours if another horse gallops past). What they do pick up on is that there are benefits to be had from letting a human hang around and occasionally complying with their requests. They are naturally biddable like dogs, Border Collies for example, soon become obsessive about being stroked but it's only because we have trained them to be so. They know it pleases us and they use it as currency.


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## Natch (14 April 2011)

PuddingandPie said:



			I am sure most people have been here before on this subject but the more I see the more I believe the "trainers" that put on displays/training clinics are more into money, circus tricks and dominance than really helping people to respect and work "with" horses.   I know that if I use a certain method to get my horse onto a trailer I will have success, rather than because there is a mutual trust that has developed between us.  But strangely I would rather have my horse load because he will do it for me rather than because I have dominated him.  Am I strange?   I don't want a horse that jumps rubber balls, or stands on a platform only suitable for a performing sea lions (which I don't approve of either!).   I want a horse that understands what I want and responds through a good relationship rather than carrot sticks, poking and generally agitating the horse.  I suppose I like "personality" and don't want a puppet.  Happy to discuss, but could I also say that these "natural" methods, in inexperienced hands are incredibly dangerous because you need to have a real understanding of horses to know what might go wrong!  Not here to offend, just, over the years, have come to dislike these "guru" methods more and more.
		
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I agree a lot of "natural" trainers no longer have the horse's best interests at heart, and are all about the showmanship. I think the "natural" in horsemanship has completely lost its meaning in many cases. It was only ever originally intended to mean training centred around the horse, not the goal.

However, I don't think that properly done natural horsemanship means your horse loses personnality - I can name 4 horses off the top of my head who have come out of their shells following ground work NH style. 

I enjoy playing about with tarpaulin, standing on things, balls etc because its a bit of fun, and gets your horse thinking out of the box. There's a lot to be said for a horse who will stand on various different surfaces happily.

Its one of many ways of doing things, and although I am a fan of NH in general, I think some (many?) of those who are most popular and high profile are those whose feet are sadly not still on the ground. In my experience the really good (natural) horsemen and women are those who get on with it quietly, low profile.


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## AndySpooner (14 April 2011)

sussexbythesea said:



			I'm really interested in this issue of using dominance to control a horse having just read Horses Never Lie by Mark Rashid.  I've been thinking more about how - yes I can make my horse do things but I'd like him to do it willingly when asked rather than with a resigned or even sometimes resentful attitude. I'm certainly going to be looking out for the "trys". 

I don't think it matters so much what your preference for training is so long as you don't become blinkered and so indoctrinated that you stop questionning what you are being told.
		
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I think that it is a trap lots fall into whatever the ethos, of ending up with a resentful, resigned or even bolshi horse. Its normally the task oriented handler, who becomes more focused on the task. It's got to be interesting and fun, the proper balance between lots of leadership and little dominance. (Expect a lot, accept a little and reward the slightest try.)


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## AndySpooner (14 April 2011)

Naturally said:



			I agree a lot of "natural" trainers no longer have the horse's best interests at heart, and are all about the showmanship. I think the "natural" in horsemanship has completely lost its meaning in many cases. It was only ever originally intended to mean training centred around the horse, not the goal.

However, I don't think that properly done natural horsemanship means your horse loses personnality - I can name 4 horses off the top of my head who have come out of their shells following ground work NH style. 

I enjoy playing about with tarpaulin, standing on things, balls etc because its a bit of fun, and gets your horse thinking out of the box. There's a lot to be said for a horse who will stand on various different surfaces happily.

Its one of many ways of doing things, and although I am a fan of NH in general, I think those who are most popular and high profile are those whose feet are sadly not still on the ground. In my experience the really good (natural) horsemen and women are those who get on with it quietly, low profile.
		
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Have to say that I agree with this. To me using the word 'natural' is a complete mis noma when talking about horse training.

I really don't know why people came up with natural, but we appear to be stuck with it now.


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## Tormenta (14 April 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			Cannot really compare wild herds with domesticated herds, the dynamics are very different, but what you normally find is that dominant horses will support a lead mare. Confusion often arises when people confuse dominant behaviour with leadership.
		
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Not altogether true in respect to gender in domestic herds although I agree with your theory in dominants supporting a leader. I have two very dominant mares who will absolutely use teeth, hinds and very expressive body language to make their positions known, however, the leader in our small herd is a quiet, laid back gelding who uses none of the latter to get his point across that he is leader and has been for six years. A flick of his ear, a slight turn of the head, a slow in his pace or body movement is all it takes for him to remind everyone of where they should be and how the dynamics work, every single horse who has passed through or is still here has never questioned him.  He is very attuned to other horses who are older and frailer or who are ill or even new to the herd, he protects them from the more healthier and dominant members. Whatever he is, it has been intriguing to watch over the years I have had him.


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## Natch (14 April 2011)

"reward the slightest try"

If only everyone in the horse world would do this, things would be so much easier/quicker/less stressful all round/more positive, take your pick!


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## Tormenta (14 April 2011)

Naturally said:



			"reward the slightest try"
		
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I have to say, I absolutely agree with that.


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## AndySpooner (14 April 2011)

Tormenta said:



			Not altogether true in respect to gender in domestic herds although I agree with your theory in dominants supporting a leader. I have two very dominant mares who will absolutely use teeth, hinds and very expressive body language to make their positions known, however, the leader in our small herd is a quiet, laid back gelding who uses none of the latter to get his point across that he is leader and has been for six years. A flick of his ear, a slight turn of the head, a slow in his pace or body movement is all it takes for him to remind everyone of where they should be and how the dynamics work, every single horse who has passed through or is still here has never questioned him.  He is very attuned to other horses who are older and frailer or who are ill or even new to the herd, he protects them from the more healthier and dominant members. Whatever he is, it has been intriguing to watch over the years I have had him. 

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Lots of work done on the wild horse herd. I tend to think that in the domestic scenario we are not dealing with a herd in the true sense, more a group of unrelated horses in a hotch potch of gender, ages etc.

In the domestic horse, I see horses coping with what they are given and making the best of things.


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## Tormenta (14 April 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			Lots of work done on the wild horse herd. I tend to think that in the domestic scenario we are not dealing with a herd in the true sense, more a group of unrelated horses in a hotch potch of gender, ages etc.

In the domestic horse, I see horses coping with what they are given and making the best of things.
		
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Thanks for the basic reply. I actually expected better. I do not think for one moment my horses (who live out all year 24/7 on plenty grazing) being differing breeds are just 'coping'. There is still a definitive hierarchy there. What do you suggest for domestic herds then?


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## AndySpooner (14 April 2011)

Lol. Perhaps coping is not strictly what I mean, but a wild herd are normally based on a family group, from the female side, sister, aunt daughter etc. Stallions change from time to time. Colts eventually excluded.
Domestic horses even in the circumstances you describe are not in the same sort of group though they may be friends or tolerate each other.

Little chance for a filly to apprentice a lead mare as happens in a proper herd.


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## Millyard Rejects (14 April 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			Lol. Perhaps coping is not strictly what I mean, but a wild herd are normally based on a family group, from the female side, sister, aunt daughter etc. Stallions change from time to time. Colts eventually excluded.
Domestic horses even in the circumstances you describe are not in the same sort of group though they may be friends or tolerate each other.

Little chance for a filly to apprentice a lead mare as happens in a proper herd.
		
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Had a family group of horses many years ago. Mare with son and daughter,then grand daughter and great granddaughter. NONE of the filly's followed the path to herd leader? in fact the mare been the boss for so long gave them to much protection. When she was pts the herd was not taken over by her offspring but a much younger unrelated welsh pony-much shorter and less physical than the irish draughts she lived with!

As far as the "natural horsmanship"- please stop using NH that really does mean NATIONAL HUNT to us old stick in the muds!

Not keen on waving sticks at any horse or pony and my bunch of rescues would have had a meltdown if approached in that way!
Have picked bits and pieces from several trainers over the years- none would be soley classed as monty roberts fans or parelli fans but a mish mash of them as per the horse.
I think horsmanship is a mis used word.
Horsmanship is working with your horse,in a manner that doesnt scare,hurt or threaten the animal.And encouraging and praise whenever it does as required should be any philosophy for any trainer?


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## AndySpooner (14 April 2011)

Horsemanship not forcemanship isn't a bad saying I think.

The problem with domestic horse groups is that there is little to challenge them, on a day to day basis where they need to cover long distances for grazing water salt or shelter. In their wild state lead by a mare their existence relies on her knowledge leadership and experience.
Compared to these challenges the domestic horses have no need to develop the complex matriacal relationships.


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## Millyard Rejects (14 April 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			Horsemanship not forcemanship isn't a bad saying I think.
Agree with that!

The problem with domestic horse groups is that there is little to challenge them, on a day to day basis where they need to cover long distances for grazing water salt or shelter. In their wild state lead by a mare their existence relies on her knowledge leadership and experience.
Compared to these challenges the domestic horses have no need to develop the complex matriacal relationships.
		
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Would agree but family units arent the norm so Matriarchs arent allowed to develop and function as they would in the wild. 
But then "natural horsmanship" doesnt really promote this when they suggest taking horses from their herd for long periods of time? but then traditional forms of horse keeping also advocate this?


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## AndySpooner (15 April 2011)

As already stated Natural Horsemanship is perhaps a mis noma, but, we're stuck with it, as Bill Dorrance himself said, 'It is not natural for horses to be around people, and its not natural for a person to sit on a horses back. When we use these words we speak about what's natural for the horse to do within his own boundaries.'

Regarding the question of the 'circus act', where people are critical of the demonstrations, which do sometimes resemble the circus, probably because of the use of the pedestal and or the big green ball.

Boil it all down and the basic art of NH is the application of pressure to the horse with the immidiate release of the pressure when the desired response has occurred.

This is totally understood by horses as it is by the application and release of pressure that they communicate. The pressure comes in phases, from the lightest, by way of a look, to actual contact.

This is the attempt to do what is natural for the horse within his own boundaries.

So what are these horses trying to achieve by the application of all this pressure? Nothing more than causing the subjected horse to move its feet. As soon as the feet move the pressure is released, and it is the release that teaches the horse to move.

We have all seen a horse move anothers forequarters by applying pressure to the neck, this may be as soft as a whisper or as harsh as a bite., depending on the willingness to move.

Asking a horse to place its feet on a pedestal is nothing more than the demonstration of what can be achieved by the appropreate application of pressure and the release. The fact that it may look like what we have come to view as a trick doesn't mean that that is what it is.

I've noticed that people seem to view the Monty Roberts approach to NH training, as perhaps more acceptable than that of Pat Parelli. My own view is that having watched both, Monty Roberts uses far more pressure than Pat Parelli and the release is often slow to come.

I say this because, from the very early 'round pen' demonstrations by Roberts the horse was sent in circles by the application of pressure. The pressure came from the mans stance, the fixing of eye contact and very often putting a line out towards the horse. I would argue that this pressure on the horse is extream, as it was moving its feet often at a fast pace (the horse would expect that the pressure should come off at this point) , but the pressure does not come off until the horse shows signs of submission. The lowering of the head, the licking and chewing, submissive foal behaviour.

The horse quickly positions itself next to the man and mirrors his movements (join up), from this position the horse avoids the application of pressure. Were it not for the high walls or fences of the round pen then the horse would have jumped out and run off, this though is not an option.

The application of pressure by Monty Roberts has been refined by the use of the Be Nice and Dually head collars, which are nothing more than a way of applying harsh pressure to the horses face until it moves its feet forward, but even here in my view the release is not fast enough.

Parelli on the other hand does not ask for the submission of the horse and the pressure is released as soon as the feet move. Because the Parelli demonstrations always take place in an arena with a 4 foot fence, no real containment of the horse, illustrates that the horse does not feel under so much pressure that it wants to jump the fence and leave. 

The application of pressure is not confined to NH, indeed all aspects of traditional horse training is the application of pressure to the horse. The riders legs and hands apply pressure to achieve the desired movement of the feet. When the desired movement is achieved the pressure should be released. The use of a snaffle bit, widely referred to as a mild or kind bit, exerts massive pressure on the horses jaw with its nut cracker action. How often is the pressure not released by the heavy handed rider.

My conclusion is that NH is not a circus act, far from it. The danger lies with the mis application of pressure and the lack of the release. All the horse can do for us is to move his feet either at a walk, trot or canter in the direction of our choosing. What some aspects of Natural Horsemanship are attempting to demonstrate is what level of pressure to apply and when to release that pressure.


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## eahotson (15 April 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			As already stated Natural Horsemanship is perhaps a mis noma, but, we're stuck with it, as Bill Dorrance himself said, 'It is not natural for horses to be around people, and its not natural for a person to sit on a horses back. When we use these words we speak about what's natural for the horse to do within his own boundaries.'

Regarding the question of the 'circus act', where people are critical of the demonstrations, which do sometimes resemble the circus, probably because of the use of the pedestal and or the big green ball.

Boil it all down and the basic art of NH is the application of pressure to the horse with the immidiate release of the pressure when the desired response has occurred.

This is totally understood by horses as it is by the application and release of pressure that they communicate. The pressure comes in phases, from the lightest, by way of a look, to actual contact.

This is the attempt to do what is natural for the horse within his own boundaries.

So what are these horses trying to achieve by the application of all this pressure? Nothing more than causing the subjected horse to move its feet. As soon as the feet move the pressure is released, and it is the release that teaches the horse to move.

We have all seen a horse move anothers forequarters by applying pressure to the neck, this may be as soft as a whisper or as harsh as a bite., depending on the willingness to move.

Asking a horse to place its feet on a pedestal is nothing more than the demonstration of what can be achieved by the appropreate application of pressure and the release. The fact that it may look like what we have come to view as a trick doesn't mean that that is what it is.

I've noticed that people seem to view the Monty Roberts approach to NH training, as perhaps more acceptable than that of Pat Parelli. My own view is that having watched both, Monty Roberts uses far more pressure than Pat Parelli and the release is often slow to come.

I say this because, from the very early 'round pen' demonstrations by Roberts the horse was sent in circles by the application of pressure. The pressure came from the mans stance, the fixing of eye contact and very often putting a line out towards the horse. I would argue that this pressure on the horse is extream, as it was moving its feet often at a fast pace (the horse would expect that the pressure should come off at this point) , but the pressure does not come off until the horse shows signs of submission. The lowering of the head, the licking and chewing, submissive foal behaviour.

The horse quickly positions itself next to the man and mirrors his movements (join up), from this position the horse avoids the application of pressure. Were it not for the high walls or fences of the round pen then the horse would have jumped out and run off, this though is not an option.

The application of pressure by Monty Roberts has been refined by the use of the Be Nice and Dually head collars, which are nothing more than a way of applying harsh pressure to the horses face until it moves its feet forward, but even here in my view the release is not fast enough.

Parelli on the other hand does not ask for the submission of the horse and the pressure is released as soon as the feet move. Because the Parelli demonstrations always take place in an arena with a 4 foot fence, no real containment of the horse, illustrates that the horse does not feel under so much pressure that it wants to jump the fence and leave. 

The application of pressure is not confined to NH, indeed all aspects of traditional horse training is the application of pressure to the horse. The riders legs and hands apply pressure to achieve the desired movement of the feet. When the desired movement is achieved the pressure should be released. The use of a snaffle bit, widely referred to as a mild or kind bit, exerts massive pressure on the horses jaw with its nut cracker action. How often is the pressure not released by the heavy handed rider.

My conclusion is that NH is not a circus act, far from it. The danger lies with the mis application of pressure and the lack of the release. All the horse can do for us is to move his feet either at a walk, trot or canter in the direction of our choosing. What some aspects of Natural Horsemanship are attempting to demonstrate is what level of pressure to apply and when to release that pressure.
		
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Room for thought there Andy.How many horses that are called kick along plods (and therefore suitable for novices, another subject altogether) have been taught to be like that because they are quite phlegmatic by nature.Someone rides them, they walk slowly and the rider keeps onnagging them with their heels and never stop.No release of pressure.The horse learns to ignore it.Then more extreme methods are needed.When people talk about difficult horses to ride, no one ever mentions these but they are difficult in their own way.


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## AndySpooner (15 April 2011)

Yes, I agree, probably one of the most frustrating. I had a  highland like this. 
These horses are thinkers and they use their brain against the rider. You end up expending more effort in an hours ride than the horse does in a month.
There are ways to motivate a  horse like this, its easy when you know how and doesn't involve whips spurs or anything to put pressure on it.


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## Natch (15 April 2011)

Interesting discussion going on here  

Regarding NH, the clue is in the title surely  millyard rejects, I think your example of a little pony taking over herd boss is a good example of andy's point that domesticated horses have to make do in the herds we choose for them. Nothing about domesticated horses is truly natural, but I think the principal of using behaviour a horse would use if left to their own devices is a sound theory, whatever you call it. In evolution terms domestication has only happened very recently, and wild instincts endures even when we have artificially selected for speed, endurance, physique and temperament.

Horsemanship is surely only the art done either well or badly. Its GOOD horsemanship we should all strive for, whatever we call it and whichever methods we use  waving a stick without purpose or sensitivity is surely bad horsemanship, using a stick in an intelligent manner in order to first habituate a horse to it, then use it appropriately as a tool to aid your work with a horse is surely very different.

It doesnt matter to me what you call it or how you do it, but it matters to me that you do it in an effective and safe manner which is not detrimental to the horse, and ideally is centred around him, not your end goal.


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## PuddingandPie (15 April 2011)

Horsmanship is working with your horse,in a manner that doesnt scare,hurt or threaten the animal.And encouraging and praise whenever it does as required should be any philosophy for any trainer? 
__________________
No truer word written!!  I would also add whenever it/he/she tries as well


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## Sussexbythesea (15 April 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			Yes, I agree, probably one of the most frustrating. I had a  highland like this. 
These horses are thinkers and they use their brain against the rider. You end up expending more effort in an hours ride than the horse does in a month.
There are ways to motivate a  horse like this, its easy when you know how and doesn't involve whips spurs or anything to put pressure on it.
		
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Please Please tell me how? My horse rarely breaks a sweat when I ride unlike me  

Does it work if you want forwardness to do dressage?


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## PuddingandPie (16 April 2011)

All posts have been very insightful only, people seem to centre on two protagonists, namely Monty and Parelli.  What worries me is the ever increasing number of people both in the UK and abroad who seem to be claiming to have "invented" their "own" methods.  With respect to you all...you have sensible heads but what of the poor uneducated who are desperate to learn and get sucked in by this overgrown populus of "experts"?

One recent graduate from a college with "equine behaviour" in the title told me catagorically that mares are never leaders and if a horse bangs its door to be fed, in a large yeard, not to feed it until last to "make it learn".

How do we protect people who wouldn't know what was right or wrong and ensure that proper standards of welfare are adhered to and maybe even a body to check out these peoples' credentials?


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## Natch (16 April 2011)

Wish there was an easy answer to that, puddingpie. I guess its the same with anything though, the novices are more liable to be taken in by the not so good ones than those who are more knowledgeable. Catch 22.


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## AndySpooner (16 April 2011)

PuddingandPie said:



			All posts have been very insightful only, people seem to centre on two protagonists, namely Monty and Parelli.  What worries me is the ever increasing number of people both in the UK and abroad who seem to be claiming to have "invented" their "own" methods.  With respect to you all...you have sensible heads but what of the poor uneducated who are desperate to learn and get sucked in by this overgrown populus of "experts"?

One recent graduate from a college with "equine behaviour" in the title told me catagorically that mares are never leaders and if a horse bangs its door to be fed, in a large yeard, not to feed it until last to "make it learn".

How do we protect people who wouldn't know what was right or wrong and ensure that proper standards of welfare are adhered to and maybe even a body to check out these peoples' credentials?
		
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I think it is unsuprising that focus lands on Monty Roberts and Pat Parelli, as these are the two most widely advertized of all the Natural Horsemanship trainers in the UK at the moment. To call them protagonists is probably somewhat disingenuous, as I, for one, don't see them as in direct competition with each other. I do believe however, that Monty Roberts has upped his game somewhat since the early 90's having seen the rapid expansion of Parelli Natural Horsemanship here in the UK.

The two are very different, and recent controversy surrounding Monty Roberts has no doubt damaged his credibility somewhat. Roberts claims to have studied wild horses interacting as a youngster and from that developed the language of Equus, and the concept of 'join up.' Parelli on the other hand constantly talks of his mentors Troy Henry,  Tom Dorrance et al. not claiming to have 'invented' anything, but passing on what he has been taught. Pat Parelli, has also been subject of some controversy only last year and that will have damaged him.

I agree that there has been a growth in the number of horse trainers who are in some way cashing in on the growing interest in these training methods. However, I feel it is somewhat condesending to speak of uneducated people, not knowing 'right' from 'wrong', and being sucked in. Sucked into what? Natural Horsemanship?

To talk of setting up some 'body' to check on 'credentials' is in my view a bit of a joke, particularly here in the UK. If we look at the high profile sports in the UK like racing, dressage and show jumping, the actual welfare of the majority of horses involved in the sport comes a poor second to the desire to win. Successful horses spend their lives in padded cells, albiet a few exceptions, the rest are the dross shed by the sports, relying on kind hearted horse owners or the knacker man for a future. Dubious training methods occasionally come to light such as Rollkur, how long did this obvious abuse take to be outlawed by the 'appropreate overseeing body'.

As far as keeping a watch on training riders and horses in the UK the BHS have been in poll position here since Noah was a lad, and a right pigs ear they have made of their responsibilities. BHS approval for a riding stables or livery yard means nothing. The standard of teaching is not good overall. The 'Uneducated people, not knowing right from wrong,' as you refer to them,  are constantly being fleeced by approved establishments, not being taught how to 'ride' but being sent in circles for an hour with someone 'yelling sit up straight.'

As far as this example goes 'One recent graduate from a college with "equine behaviour" in the title told me catagorically that mares are never leaders and if a horse bangs its door to be fed, in a large yeard, not to feed it until last to "make it learn".'  There will always be thick students and graduates.

We have some excellent riding establishments and excellent teachers here in the UK, where the welfare of the horse is paramount, but this is because of personal achievment by those involved, not because of some overseeing body.


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## Golf Girl (16 April 2011)

Excellent post Andy! You do talk a lot of sense


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## EAST KENT (16 April 2011)

COFFEE BREAK FOLKS! Point is ...has Monty had a face lift? He has that stretched look with his teeth sort of bared..just the same as Burt Reynolds and Kenny Rogers. Probably the same cosmetic surgeon. DISCUSS AND ENJOY BISCUITS.


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## PuddingandPie (17 April 2011)

Andy you are talking a lot of sense.  I must correct myself when I say "uneducated".  What I should say is people who have little knowledge of what is right or wrong...as I speak from experience having been one of those being yelled at to sit up straight, kick on and never dare drop a sixpence from my knee against the saddle!

I also agree that a "body" is a joke in principle because nobody seems to want to make a stand, follow through or have the courage of their convictions.  It would be nice if all these "trainers" setting up in many nooks and crannies should have some kind of association to affiliate to so that you know you are getting someone with adequate training at the very least!  I know I could put a programme together, hype it up and get takers but that isn't right!  I also agree that the methods of teaching generally are not very good in that teachers don't seem to take a holistic approach.  I am not referring to a vast proportion, but a big enough number to be able to find someone suitable for me in terms of horse welfare, ability to impart knowledge and someone who works on the whole picture and changes the rules to suit the horse.
Thank you for being so open.  It is quite refreshing.


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## eahotson (17 April 2011)

Excellent post Andy.


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## amandap (17 April 2011)

I agree great post.



AndySpooner said:



			Dubious training methods occasionally come to light such as Rollkur, how long did this obvious abuse take to be outlawed by the 'appropreate overseeing body'.
		
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Just have to pick up on this because I don't believe the 'outlawing' of this is actually working in practice due to some wording and interpretation of the so called rules.

In the end it's down to individual horse owners/carers who have the reponsibility for their horses to take this responsibility seriously and make informed decisions and learn ways that they believe are right and fair to the horse. Just following any teacher blindly is fraught with problems, there has to be a level of understanding about what you are doing and the effects on the horses to truely make 'informed' decisions.


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## Lobelia_Overhill (17 April 2011)

I tried Join Up with my lad when he went through his "teenage tantrum" phase after I bought him - he was crushing me against the wall in the stable, biting and kicking (or trying his damndest), and spooking at everything when I rode.  I ignored the "sell him" advice that I was given, and opted to try Join Up. I went in to the indoor school fairly sceptical (having heard that the horses used in demos for NH are pre-trained) ... let horse off lead rope, stood well back, left him to wander for a minute, then walked towards him, head up, shoulders squared, looking him right in the eye - and he ran for his life!  

He tore around the arena, changing direction everytime I got too far behind him, then when he started to slow down and lower his head I turned my back on him...

We didn't do the whole job 'properly' (he didn't walk towards me) but since then our relationship has been fantastic.  I didn't go to see him (he's on full livery) for 3 weeks [because I'd hurt my back] a few days after our session (nothing to do with the horse) I went up again thinking that I might have to sell him - not because of his behaviour, but because my bad had been bad and I was feeling very miserable.  I stopped to talk to one of the yard people, and heard a "crashing" sound, I looked down the passage and could see my horse practically climbing out over his stable door!

When I went into the stable he was all over me nuzzling me and lipping my hands...I started crying

That was about 20 months ago and things have been going great for us since, despite my continual absences due to my Bad Back (and more lately because of my mother's sudden onset Dementia), when I go get up to see him he greets me enthusiastically and when I do ride him he's much much calmer.  

He's got a home for life


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## AndySpooner (17 April 2011)

Loberia, fantastic post,


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## AndySpooner (17 April 2011)

Lobelia, fantastic post, sounds a wonderful relationshipyou have there.


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## Fuzznugget (17 April 2011)

Amaranta said:



			Good horsemanship is good horsemanship, there are good and bad points in both NH and 'traditional'.

Personally I use a hybrid between the two, ie, I take the bits I like and discard the ones I don't agree with - from both methods.

However, I really dislike Parelli.
		
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Well said! I do, however, like John Lyons. (did I just out myself as a NHperson?! )



lexiedhb said:



			Popcorn and coffee anyone? 

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Coffee please! 



IHK said:



			I met a 19 year old young lady socially recently and 'Your Horse Live' came up in conversation because I said how I enjoyed watching the Fredericks and that I wished I could have spent more time watching some of the demonstrations.  She said "There would be nothing there to interest me - I guess because I'm already really experienced with horses".  It would have been too embarrassing to admit that there are some of us who have been at this a while who feel we're still learning ...
		
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 I've been involved with horses (personally & professionally) for about 15 years now, and can honestly say I've never  stopped learning. 



As for the whole NH debate, there are good & bad in all training. Pick what works for you AND YOUR HORSE and chuck the rest.


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## Lobelia_Overhill (18 April 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			Lobelia, fantastic post, sounds a wonderful relationshipyou have there.
		
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Thank you.  I just wish I could find the person who'd told me the whole Monty Roberts thing was a load of manure and all the horses are trained out the back before being put in front of an audience.  No one pre trained my horse!


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## MiJodsR2BlinkinTite (18 April 2011)

Unfortunately "natural horsemanship" often carries with it a "tag" of being weird and wonderful, and very modern - it unfortunately has this image of being rather Hippie and trendy, which isn't always a helpful image.

IMO there's nothing new or trendy about getting the best out of one's horse; and what's happened over the years is that good old-fashioned horse-sense has been lost. It used to be that if your family had horses, you'd have probably have been sent out with the ostler or the groom to learn about how to handle often difficult horses, and that knowledge would have been taught to you as a child and you would have then had it for life.

Now we have a lot of people coming into horses as adults who frankly haven't got a clue; and will soak up any so-called "wisdom" - and don't have the experience or background to be able to discern whether its good or not.

Going back a long long time; the Red Indians of native America knew how to handle their horses; of course they did, they were reliant on them for not just travelling but also very probably for food as well, plus warfare. Similarly many of the nomadic tribes throughout history - they didn't need to do a Parelli Level 2 course!!! There was a tribe in the East that Martin Clunes featured in his recent TV programme about horses, and it didn't look like they needed a Parelli course either !!!!

Then you have the old-fashioned grooms and ostlers in our British tradition; who lived, breathed, and existed for horses - and who passed that knowledge on to anyone who'd listen. Plus the discipline existing in the cavalry, with the very disciplined approach to horsemanship and riding. 

All of these people were, in their own way and in their own time, using "natural horsemanship": so I don't feel that certain individiuals who are selling their "product" with a great deal of hype, expense, and regimentation about equipment and what "level" you are, are doing anything new or exciting!

To my simple brain, the correct approach with any horse is the one which achieves the result the rider/trainer wants: as Michael Peace says, "if you want the results you've always had then keep doing the thing you've always done" (or words to that effect). So the opposite is true, sometimes one might need to be open to different (not necessarily new) methods of horsemanship.

I like Michael's "think equus" approach: but surely this should be something those of us who've been around horses a while should be doing anyway? Yes, there are people out there that need to learn it - so, for them, its "new". But to be effective, it should be more than second nature, it should be instinctive.


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## Jennyharvey (18 April 2011)

I guess for me, natural horsemanship is just good horsemanship.  There are good trainers in all aspects of horsemanship, whether traditional or NH.  Bad ones too.  Like others have said, you take the bits you like, and not the bits you dont.  

As for it being a circus act or trick training, surely everything we teach the horse is some kind of trick?  Being on a horse's back isnt natural for them, they have to learn it.  Same with jumping big jumps, piaffe, half pass.  although the horse can naturally do these movements, its really us who determines what has the most value.  I guess most people think of dressage and jumping has the most value because its most popular, but to a horse, its just being taught something.  
Maybe standing on a platform seems to trick like for some people, but then again, we ask the horse to load into a trailer, so what the difference.  
At the end of the day, we train horses to perform different things to make it easier for us to work with them and ride them.


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## PuddingandPie (19 April 2011)

I like Michael's "think equus" approach: but surely this should be something those of us who've been around horses a while should be doing anyway? Yes, there are people out there that need to learn it - so, for them, its "new". But to be effective, it should be more than second nature, it should be instinctive.

I like this comment because it is very true that not all are blessed with instinct around horses.  I know of people who have been on every course going, including BHS ones and still manage to get regularly trampled, knocked over, trodden on, bashed in the head by their horses' heads and break their legs before they even manage to get on the horse!  Common sense, intuition, safety in a practical way are not really embedded into everyone when they go near a horse and what makes sense to one person is not necessarily easy to understand for another.  When I attended the first NH demo it was frightening to see how these latter people could suffer some real damage because the couldn't recognise the possible consequences when they first "applied" it, especially when the response was dramatically negative.  I saw the results of this and a couple of people went home with bruises on them in places they didn't expect and were more nervous of their horses than before the demo.  BHS methods don't really take in the principles of "think equus" either because they difficult to explain in their manuals or because they were not aware/thought it might not always work/may even be dangerous.
Trainers from any background/methodology need to understand the body language of the horse and indeed their own....but here is the rub.....each one uses their own body language in a different way...some only confront, some turn away, some stamp their feet and march, others stand quietly.....not every horse responds in the same consistent manner ...so where do we go from here?


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## Chavhorse (19 April 2011)

MiJodsR2BlinkinTite said:



			Unfortunately "natural horsemanship" often carries with it a "tag" of being weird and wonderful, and very modern - it unfortunately has this image of being rather Hippie and trendy, which isn't always a helpful image.

IMO there's nothing new or trendy about getting the best out of one's horse; and what's happened over the years is that good old-fashioned horse-sense has been lost. It used to be that if your family had horses, you'd have probably have been sent out with the ostler or the groom to learn about how to handle often difficult horses, and that knowledge would have been taught to you as a child and you would have then had it for life.

Now we have a lot of people coming into horses as adults who frankly haven't got a clue; and will soak up any so-called "wisdom" - and don't have the experience or background to be able to discern whether its good or not.

Going back a long long time; the Red Indians of native America knew how to handle their horses; of course they did, they were reliant on them for not just travelling but also very probably for food as well, plus warfare. Similarly many of the nomadic tribes throughout history - they didn't need to do a Parelli Level 2 course!!! There was a tribe in the East that Martin Clunes featured in his recent TV programme about horses, and it didn't look like they needed a Parelli course either !!!!

Then you have the old-fashioned grooms and ostlers in our British tradition; who lived, breathed, and existed for horses - and who passed that knowledge on to anyone who'd listen. Plus the discipline existing in the cavalry, with the very disciplined approach to horsemanship and riding. 

All of these people were, in their own way and in their own time, using "natural horsemanship": so I don't feel that certain individiuals who are selling their "product" with a great deal of hype, expense, and regimentation about equipment and what "level" you are, are doing anything new or exciting!

To my simple brain, the correct approach with any horse is the one which achieves the result the rider/trainer wants: as Michael Peace says, "if you want the results you've always had then keep doing the thing you've always done" (or words to that effect). So the opposite is true, sometimes one might need to be open to different (not necessarily new) methods of horsemanship.

I like Michael's "think equus" approach: but surely this should be something those of us who've been around horses a while should be doing anyway? Yes, there are people out there that need to learn it - so, for them, its "new". But to be effective, it should be more than second nature, it should be instinctive.
		
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Great Post.

I was having this self same conversation with my trainer yesterday.  His opinion is that now we have so many leisure horses the old days of horse knowledge/sense being passed down from father to son are pretty much over.  He has had calls from people who have bought a horse who have no idea about feeding "so shall I just open the bag of feed and leave it in the field" "what's it temperature? oh do horses have one"  stunning really.

So this is when we have the danger of people soaking up any old wisdom, be that from the big name trainers or someone on the yard or thinking that watching a DVD makes them an expert.  The problem with this is that not all horses will fit into the prescribed training patten, a good trainer will stop and think of another route, adapt their method to the horse, unfortunately many simply forge ahead and the horse gets pressured into doing it "their way" and following the formula.

His other comment was that "people now a days want perfection in 2 weeks, with no realisation that actually its a bit like losing weight, the slower you do it the better, the more you build the foundation, the more solid and confident your horse" 

But his main mantra "consistency consistency consistency" in all things from leading, to riding complicated pattens.


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## AndySpooner (20 April 2011)

Chavhorse said:



			Great Post.

I was having this self same conversation with my trainer yesterday.  His opinion is that now we have so many leisure horses the old days of horse knowledge/sense being passed down from father to son are pretty much over.  He has had calls from people who have bought a horse who have no idea about feeding "so shall I just open the bag of feed and leave it in the field" "what's it temperature? oh do horses have one"  stunning really.

So this is when we have the danger of people soaking up any old wisdom, be that from the big name trainers or someone on the yard or thinking that watching a DVD makes them an expert.  The problem with this is that not all horses will fit into the prescribed training patten, a good trainer will stop and think of another route, adapt their method to the horse, unfortunately many simply forge ahead and the horse gets pressured into doing it "their way" and following the formula.

His other comment was that "people now a days want perfection in 2 weeks, with no realisation that actually its a bit like losing weight, the slower you do it the better, the more you build the foundation, the more solid and confident your horse" 

But his main mantra "consistency consistency consistency" in all things from leading, to riding complicated pattens.
		
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I think that it is right to say that horsemanship as has been passed down through the generations since Xenaphon has indeed been lost. I very much agree with 'consistency' but also believe that 'education' is also vital.

As the role of the horse has changed through history the number of people dealing on a day to day basis with horses has become fewer, and expertise lost.

I also believe that to place too much credence on the military approach to horses is a mistake. As the 'one size fits all'  attitude of the military has lead to some horrific developement of tack and practises, not widely known. Horses were used in battle and not expected to survive, wire bits or tongues cut out were common forms of restraint and control. Mechanization, though leading to the decline of horses in the wider society, is probably a benefit to horses on an individual basis. It has to be remembered that of the millions of horses and mules that left these shores for Europe during the First World War, non ever came back as if they survived the battles, the fear of disease meant that slaughter was the end for them.

The military influence on the traditional approach to horses in the UK can be seen in lots of spheres still, in UK equestrianism, indeed early BHS books on the care of horses placed great emphasis on proper attire worn by the horse owner/keeper, ties being a must.

I see the increased interest in natural horsemanship as an overall benefit for horses and horse keepers in todays world. I think that the increased use of DVD's etc as the logical progression from the countless books written about horsemanship, is also a benefit, but, having read a book did not make an expert nor should watching a DVD be assumed to do the same.

DVD'S etc. have a role to play in horse training as it a fantastic thing to be able to see what a trainer is trying to demonstrate. 

In an ideal world I would like to see the 'natural' and 'traditional' tags become a thing of the past as everyone tries to achieve a high level of 'horsemanship', taking the approach that the horses individuality is one of the most vital aspects in tayloring his training to achieving the desired results.


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## Kelly Marks (21 April 2011)

To all the people who say 'it's just common sense' just google 'the curse of knowlege' i.e. 'forgetting what it was like not to know'.  I find it fascinating when I'm 'the student' in situations (giant learning curve subject is 'stable planning permission' at the moment) and 'the experts' make so many assumptions about what I 'should' already know.

The amount of people that say to me about their horse 'he's not frightened - he's just stubborn' and the horse is totally rigid, his head held really high, eyes popping out, his breathing about 3 times the rate it should be, doing droppings every 2 minutes - and I point the signs of fear out and it's like they see them for the first time.  These are not bad people - it's just we all have a tendency to see what we want or expect to see.

Interestingly sometimes these people may be really good competitive riders.  Being a good competition rider has a different skill set from being a great groom/vet/carer/breaker/whatever  (common sense really!)  Perhaps in the good old days people recognised this more and a yard was more likely to have a resident 'old man' who noticed things and you went to with all your problems.  If my memory serves me right their name was often 'Snowy'!

Kelly Marks


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## team barney (21 April 2011)

IHK said:



			To all the people who say 'it's just common sense' just google 'the curse of knowlege' i.e. 'forgetting what it was like not to know'.  I find it fascinating when I'm 'the student' in situations (giant learning curve subject is 'stable planning permission' at the moment) and 'the experts' make so many assumptions about what I 'should' already know.

The amount of people that say to me about their horse 'he's not frightened - he's just stubborn' and the horse is totally rigid, his head held really high, eyes popping out, his breathing about 3 times the rate it should be, doing droppings every 2 minutes - and I point the signs of fear out and it's like they see them for the first time.  These are not bad people - it's just we all have a tendency to see what we want or expect to see.

Interestingly sometimes these people may be really good competitive riders.  Being a good competition rider has a different skill set from being a great groom/vet/carer/breaker/whatever  (common sense really!)  Perhaps in the good old days people recognised this more and a yard was more likely to have a resident 'old man' who noticed things and you went to with all your problems.  If my memory serves me right their name was often 'Snowy'!

Kelly Marks
		
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A huge issue is that people worship their natural horsemanship gurus to such a degree they are almost seen as omnipotent beings.  

They defend the rights and wrongs of their chosen leaders unquestioningly.

I have seen many supposedly natural people justify striking a horse repeatedly the face in the name of natural horsemanship, common sense should tell people that it is wrong but tribal feeling justifies it to them.


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## Golf Girl (21 April 2011)

team barney said:



			A huge issue is that people worship their natural horsemanship gurus to such a degree they are almost seen as omnipotent beings.

They defend the rights and wrongs of their chosen leaders unquestioningly.
		
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That's a ridiculously sweeping statement! Maybe some do, but most don't.





			I have seen many supposedly natural people justify striking a horse repeatedly the face in the name of natural horsemanship, common sense should tell people that it is wrong but tribal feeling justifies it to them.
		
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That's just rubbish! A more likely explanation is that you have seen what you wanted to see ....


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## JoBird (21 April 2011)

I have to say I WAS a fan but now I take elements of each of the trainers rather than follow any one "religiously" as they would like! 

Oh and yes unfortunately I have seen people being taught (in a 3 day course) and it included one woman being told to strike her arab with a stick on the side of its head, several times.  I saw it, was soooo shocked and wrote to the firm.

Later on, giving them the benefit of the doubt, I wanted to hold a course using one of their instructors and promoting them. I put up posters which someone emailed to them - they came down on me like a ton of bricks and were going to sue me. Yikes it was scary!  Basically they didnt like it as they thought they were missing out on revenue when really I was getting them new followers ....
Turned right off them now - I have seen through the act they have become and I actually feel upset that THEY let me down (never mind the horses!). 
Some of the basics are good so just pic out the good bits!


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## PuddingandPie (21 April 2011)

team barney said:



			A huge issue is that people worship their natural horsemanship gurus to such a degree they are almost seen as omnipotent beings.  

They defend the rights and wrongs of their chosen leaders unquestioningly.

I have seen many supposedly natural people justify striking a horse repeatedly the face in the name of natural horsemanship, common sense should tell people that it is wrong but tribal feeling justifies it to them.
		
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This is the very essence of my concern!   Watching Horse and Country TV last night the "Australian" repeatedly said "Point, Cluck, Whack it!"  "If it keeps showing you its rear end then thrash it!"    What hope is there when it it is being filmed in a large indoor venue full of "supporters"  and available for all of us in the UK to watch, whether we are able to make a judgement or not?   The "Down Under" trainers are more frightening than any of those in the UK..but then how many of those that we see in the UK are actually based here?    Domination and submission seems to be key to these trainers and it takes all forms of horrific "no pain, no gain" behaviours.  Maybe I am old fashioned and prefer a less "intrusive" methodology, which would change naturally for each individual as no size fits all.  Maybe I don't achieve results as quickly as others, but I do have sane, trusting and willing horses as a result.  As the leading international horse transporter once said to me "I would rather have a plane load of TB stallions than one polo pony newly broken in from Argentina!"  Don't ask me to explain as I used to live there!


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## intouch (21 April 2011)

PuddingandPie said:



			This is the very essence of my concern!   Watching Horse and Country TV last night the "Australian" repeatedly said "Point, Cluck, Whack it!"  "If it keeps showing you its rear end then thrash it!"    What hope is there when it it is being filmed in a large indoor venue full of "supporters"  and available for all of us in the UK to watch, whether we are able to make a judgement or not?   The "Down Under" trainers are more frightening than any of those in the UK..but then how many of those that we see in the UK are actually based here?
		
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Please don't tar all trainers with the same brush just because they come from Oz!  Steve Halfpenny at www.silversand.com.au visits UK each year and is the best horseman and people person I have met - his respect for the horse, and for the people who come to his clinics, is authentic, unlike some whose only respect is for the £££s they can extract!


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## AndySpooner (21 April 2011)

Pudding, Don't tar all Australians with the same brush, Anderson is totally different to Halfpenny.

The depth of knowledge here really needs to be much improved, most criticisms are half baked, ill informed or some personal axe to grind.

No trainer or method is perfect, live with it, it will drive you mad if you don't.


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## nicky_jess (22 April 2011)

I havnt read through all the other posts because there's so many lol just thought I'd tell you ally side having used natural horsemanship. It really is the best thing for me and my horse. She's one of those typical mares that wants to be dominant, bargy n generally get her own way, she would stand and fight anyone that tried to beat her black and blue, she sees red and that's it, however for the last 2 years I've done natural horsemanship with her, not to perform tricks, I don't get her to stand on blocks and all that 'circus' stuff as people like to call it lol that just shows to what extent it can be used. I use itbin a way that's made her respectful of my space, she doesn't drag me around, basically it's a way of communicating to her in her own language as let's face it they don't speak our language but that's not to say they don't understand praise, of course they do, it makes them sk much more willing as they pick up on your positive attitude and energy. My mare jess will switch on and off so she's not snail pace if I need her to be forward however if I just want her to stand in one place she will, that's jot to say however thy she can't be as alert to everything around her as she would normally she can look wherever she wants. 
It's just about getting them to think for tthemselves and figure out what you want without gettin in trouble for making a mistake during learning, they tend to be more in the attitude and mind set of 'where would you like me to be, what would you like me to do'. It can help mentally tire your horse which is great as so many horses turn into drones as they don't think for themselves, and also the activities you do can help them lift and carry themselves in a more natural way. There's always going to be people against it but for me it's changed my horse no end for the better she enjoys to work with me now instead of against me and still retains her personality through it all too which is great, we do have a better relationship and she seems more confident with things now because she's more confident in me. I havnt done it by myself I've got a trainer near me that's fantastic and I've been gettin her every 3 weeks for the last 2 months and can't wait till my next session xxx


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## M'n'M (22 April 2011)

I have to say that natural horsemanship has saved me and my horse because we would have killed each other without it. 

There's always a right way and a wrong way to do everything. If you do natural horsemanship right, it works. If you do it wrong, it goes horribly wrong. 

You can't be naive but take everything with a grain of salt. You actually have to pay attention and if you are getting the wrong result you have to be willing to admit your mistake and find a different way to do it.

Everything in balance. Too much of natural horsmanship is bad in the same way that too much classical horsemanship can be bad.

I also think that it depends on the horse. Some horses are fine without natural horsemanship, in fact, most probably are, but my mare wasn't. And we had nowhere else to turn. And it worked. And I take classical dressage lessons. 

So take that as you will.


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## nicky_jess (22 April 2011)

Oh just to add, I never hit jess, I would never as it's not Antibes right to force a horse to do something they are an animal and really at the end of the day are gna do as they wish. If you hit my horse you would lose he respect too it's just pointless, my trainer never strikes a horse with anything fir any reason despite it's behaviour. I don't worship her lol but like anything, people see things that you can't yourself so it's always handy to have a regular session with a professional instructor xxx


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## nicky_jess (22 April 2011)

Anybodies*


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## fitzaud2 (22 April 2011)

ISHmad said:



			Most horsemanship is common sense which some people have in abundance, others have none.  I would never knock all the trainers who hold demos or clinics as some of them are very good and have helped a lot of horses and owners.  The problem comes when people slavishly follow methods without thinking if it is right for them and their horse and will not deviate from that path regardless.  There is good and bad in most areas, the key is trawling through all that to go with what works best for each individual horse.
		
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Here here to that, I am a fan of some of the natural horsemanship stuff, but you do really need common sense. 2 of my friends have *******ed up their horses, turning them into a ball of nerves, from overuse of "natural" stuff. I did, however, find a really good trainer here in Ireland, called Laura Domencia. She's fab, no nonsense natural horsemanship, that basically reckons you have to be the "dominant" mare, create boundaries, and not have your horse over step them. As an example, my first ground work lesson with cooper, he was nudging me quite forcefully with his head. She explained that just cos you love him, thats him pushing your buttons... needless to say, we stopped him doing that, by using her methods. she has taught me so much, some of it fairly basic, but unless your told, you'll never know. I feel I am a better rider and more confident handling horses because of her, and am delighted to have met her!!!! www.connectedhorsemanship.com for anybody in ireland interested. she's also on facebook, through her own name.


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## nicky_jess (22 April 2011)

That's just like my trainer fitzaud2, black and White boundaries, no grey areas, works a treat, mines Melanie Watson, she's doing a tv programme soon, if you google her you can find her website xx


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## fitzaud2 (22 April 2011)

nicky_jess said:



			That's just like my trainer fitzaud2, black and White boundaries, no grey areas, works a treat, mines Melanie Watson, she's doing a tv programme soon, if you google her you can find her website xx
		
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Thanks, I'll have a look, black and white is so good, horses respect that, in my experience, they thrive on routine, and knowing whats good and whats not. I'm going to look at Melanies website now, thanks again!!


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## Amaranta (22 April 2011)

Now see, to me, black and white, setting boundaries and being the herd leader is not restricted to the 'natural' movement, it is plain old common sense IMHO


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## fitzaud2 (22 April 2011)

Amaranta said:



			Now see, to me, black and white, setting boundaries and being the herd leader is not restricted to the 'natural' movement, it is plain old common sense IMHO 

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You are right, but lots of people dont see it like that, most of natural horsemanship is common sense, but lots of people call it bulls**t, where as it's not, it is COMMON SENSE, it makes me laugh that so called knowledgeable people will ridicule it, when, in fact, it is common sense, and lots of it you know, and then there's more you "didn't" know, but when you think about it, it makes total sense. Even if you only have 2 or 3 lessons with "natural horsemanship", it gives you the confidence to go with what is common sense rather than the silly way it "should" be done!!


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## team barney (22 April 2011)

Golf Girl said:



			That's just rubbish! A more likely explanation is that you have seen what you wanted to see ....
		
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One example... many people tried to justify the Barney video.  That video showed a horse being repeatedly struck in the jaw with a rope/clip.


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## team barney (22 April 2011)

PuddingandPie said:



			This is the very essence of my concern!   Watching Horse and Country TV last night the "Australian" repeatedly said "Point, Cluck, Whack it!"  "If it keeps showing you its rear end then thrash it!"    What hope is there when it it is being filmed in a large indoor venue full of "supporters"  and available for all of us in the UK to watch, whether we are able to make a judgement or not?   The "Down Under" trainers are more frightening than any of those in the UK..but then how many of those that we see in the UK are actually based here?    Domination and submission seems to be key to these trainers and it takes all forms of horrific "no pain, no gain" behaviours.  Maybe I am old fashioned and prefer a less "intrusive" methodology, which would change naturally for each individual as no size fits all.  Maybe I don't achieve results as quickly as others, but I do have sane, trusting and willing horses as a result.  As the leading international horse transporter once said to me "I would rather have a plane load of TB stallions than one polo pony newly broken in from Argentina!"  Don't ask me to explain as I used to live there!
		
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Exactly, you can't train every horse with the same set method, any more than you can trim every hoof to the same degree angles, neither style treatment will make a sound horse.

I train all my horses to suit their personalities as I want to retain their individual characters, I don't want a yard full of robots.  My only training technique is kindness and patience (and I don't just talk the talk unlike some of the "big names" out there).  I don't see the need to carry a whip at all times and I don't use pressure halters or knotted rope halters.

Most natural horsemanship is based entirely on negative reinforcement, I have even seen a video in which Parelli claims horses don't understand praise!!!!


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## Jennyharvey (22 April 2011)

its true that most training, not just nh, is based on negative reinforcement.  If u ask a horse to back up with pressure on his nose, then release, this is negative reinforcement.  
All horses comunicate this way too.  If a horse is bold in a herd, the lead horse will tell them off with a swift bite or kick, or simply just moving the horse away with its body language.  This is also negative reinforcement.  

But horses do understand praise.  I think we all know this.  The effectiveness of clicker training proves this.  But in all espects of horse training, rewards are important.  Even if its a kind, soothing voice, or a rub and a scratch, or treat, its an important tool for training.


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## Fellewell (22 April 2011)

Well although I have lived my life the BHS way and in terms of safety this has always served me very well. I have to hang my head and admit that when I took on a 580kg 'salmon on a lead rope' I did trawl the web for some cowboy wisdom and some of it's great. Not the famous ones either (you have to pay for that). No, the internet is choc full of our American cousins and some of them are OK.


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## better half (22 April 2011)

Just for the record
Tom Dorrance was the Father of Natural Horsemasnship he has a great book called True Unity ISBN 1-884995-09-8.
Monty Roberts was apprentice to Bill Dorrance Toms brother.
Ray Hunt worked with Tom Dorrance and Parelli went to Ray Hunt Clinics
Pressure halters were used by cowboys in extreme situations to get a horse to fight its way out of a bog not for ground work schooling.    The level of communication in Join-Up is screaming not whispering.     I also think there are some good circus trainers out there.


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## AndySpooner (22 April 2011)

Better Half,

Totally agree about join up, far too much, far too long in most cases.


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## amandap (22 April 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			Better Half,

Totally agree about join up, far too much, far too long in most cases.
		
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Not that I've ever performed it but surely once again it's down to HOW it is done and with which horses and owners? 
It's like saying round pens, advance and retreat, clickers or bridles are bad? It's not the tool it's the skill of the user that really matters surely? 

This is the problem imo with these sort of discussions, people focus on a person or tool and slate it so others are pushed into defending it... the *concepts* that are really important imo get lost in the tit for tat 'that is bad or he/she is bad' OH NO 'it is great and he/she is great' LOL


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## AndySpooner (22 April 2011)

True Amanda, the reason I do not do it the same as M.R. Is because there is never an escape for the horse from the pressure.

Even when trailer loading they use a pressure halter and surround the trailer with fencing.

So I guess I don't ike the concept of join up.


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## amandap (22 April 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			So I guess I don't ike the concept of join up.
		
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That's fair enough. I take it it's your feeling that the horse can't escape from 'pressure' and there are many who feel the same. However I don't see it like that myself, imo a horse can feel very pressured in an open field and certainly in a stable. Again to me it's how you use that pressure and how responsive you can be to the horse. It could be argued that the presence of a human no matter what distance (well so long as the horse can hear/see them) can pressure a horse so it's hard for a horse to 'escape pressure' from us imo. For me learning about horses responses and how they are a species and as individuals react to pressure is crucial to getting my comminication and timing and volume right and often with horses the easiest and simplest way is some form of pressure. (and release of course). 

It's simple for me to right this stuff but I'm still learning and hopfully improving my listening (reading of horses) and timing.


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## fburton (22 April 2011)

fitzaud2 said:



			She's fab, no nonsense natural horsemanship, that basically reckons you have to be the "dominant" mare, create boundaries, and not have your horse over step them.
		
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Just wanted to point out that while one can indeed create and maintain boundaries by emulating a dominant mare, one can also create and maintain boundaries _without_ doing this. Being seen as dominant mare isn't obligatory (and some would argue that can cause more problems than it solves).


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## team barney (22 April 2011)

fburton said:



			Just wanted to point out that while one can indeed create and maintain boundaries by emulating a dominant mare, one can also create and maintain boundaries _without_ doing this. Being seen as dominant mare isn't obligatory (and some would argue that can cause more problems than it solves).
		
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Totally agree, to set yourself up as the dominant horse is often just setting yourself up to be challenged.


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## AndySpooner (22 April 2011)

amandap said:



			That's fair enough. I take it it's your feeling that the horse can't escape from 'pressure' and there are many who feel the same. However I don't see it like that myself, imo a horse can feel very pressured in an open field and certainly in a stable. Again to me it's how you use that pressure and how responsive you can be to the horse. It could be argued that the presence of a human no matter what distance (well so long as the horse can hear/see them) can pressure a horse so it's hard for a horse to 'escape pressure' from us imo. For me learning about horses responses and how they are a species and as individuals react to pressure is crucial to getting my comminication and timing and volume right and often with horses the easiest and simplest way is some form of pressure. (and release of course). 

It's simple for me to right this stuff but I'm still learning and hopfully improving my listening (reading of horses) and timing.
		
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Everything you have said here I broadly agree with. As pressure is the way horses communicate then obviously the subtlety of application and of course the release, is the quest of everyone using these techniques. The lightest of application is then the 'whisper,' surely the very thing we are attempting to achieve.

Obviously horses working with us at this level are not the raw young things which are usually involved in 'join up' . Perhaps as I have progressed through the study and application of natural horsemanship, I have become more aware of the levels of pressure applied, how little is required, and baulk slightly at the higher amounts used.


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## AndySpooner (22 April 2011)

fburton said:



			Just wanted to point out that while one can indeed create and maintain boundaries by emulating a dominant mare, one can also create and maintain boundaries _without_ doing this. Being seen as dominant mare isn't obligatory (and some would argue that can cause more problems than it solves).
		
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A confusion of dominance with leadership, perhaps?


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## PuddingandPie (22 April 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			Pudding, Don't tar all Australians with the same brush, Anderson is totally different to Halfpenny.

The depth of knowledge here really needs to be much improved, most criticisms are half baked, ill informed or some personal axe to grind.

No trainer or method is perfect, live with it, it will drive you mad if you don't.
		
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I was not wishing to tar all Australians with the same brush and I apologise if I didn't make this clear...it's just that whenever I see a TV programme I am generally rather shocked at some of the methods shown that are portrayed to be kind and right to the horse.   There are all sorts of people in the UK who purport to be a "practioner of natural methods" but don't always show the kindness and restraint/knowledge that I would expect.  I know there are good and bad ones...but to the person who is being "bible bashed" at some demo...how can they make an informed judgement if they don't all ready have a vat of information/knowledge to make a choice.   I nearly got sucked in and realised as the day progressed that the particular person in question that day was not one I would wish to follow or recommend.  But at least I had the knowledge to know it was wrong...as I said I nearly got sucked in.


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## amandap (22 April 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			Perhaps as I have progressed through the study and application of natural horsemanship, I have become more aware of the levels of pressure applied, how little is required, and baulk slightly at the higher amounts used.
		
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I see where you're coming from totally. As I have become better at reading horses and asking them and training them (still a long way to go) I have found that I need generally less and less overt pressure. I believe this is mainly due to me becoming better in seeing the smaller responses from my horses. However, how much pressure I apply does to a large extent depend on circumstances and setting. I hope to work towards my lot understanding what I want and listening to my direction at all times and in all circumstances. Of course this is something I may never achieve as I don't have control of external influences but I hope to work towards this.
I'm rambling now and forgetting the point I was trying to make... lol
Oh yes pressure and the level of it. I worry when people say they never wish to use higher pressure because for me denying that something may be required in for eg. emegency circumstances or with an individual horse in a given situation, is to me to deny our personal 'control' of pressure. Probably seen as confused or rationalized thinking to many but that's how I see it. I try to 'own' the pressure I use or don't use and if I do over do it I learn and hopefully do better next time.

Make any sense of that? lol


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## fburton (22 April 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			A confusion of dominance with leadership, perhaps?
		
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That happens quite a lot too, yes!


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## amandap (22 April 2011)

I'm beginning to wonder if one of my main roles with my horses is that of teacher? As opposed to leader or partner etc.


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## Kelly Marks (22 April 2011)

"I'm beginning to wonder if one of my main roles with my horses is that of teacher? As opposed to leader or partner etc."

Perfect!


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## fburton (22 April 2011)

amandap said:



			I'm beginning to wonder if one of my main roles with my horses is that of teacher? As opposed to leader or partner etc.
		
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I like it!  (Well I would, wouldn't I? )


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## AndySpooner (22 April 2011)

PuddingandPie said:



			I was not wishing to tar all Australians with the same brush and I apologise if I didn't make this clear...it's just that whenever I see a TV programme I am generally rather shocked at some of the methods shown that are portrayed to be kind and right to the horse.   There are all sorts of people in the UK who purport to be a "practioner of natural methods" but don't always show the kindness and restraint/knowledge that I would expect.  I know there are good and bad ones...but to the person who is being "bible bashed" at some demo...how can they make an informed judgement if they don't all ready have a vat of information/knowledge to make a choice.   I nearly got sucked in and realised as the day progressed that the particular person in question that day was not one I would wish to follow or recommend.  But at least I had the knowledge to know it was wrong...as I said I nearly got sucked in.
		
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There really is no need to apologize to me, but thanks. I am guilty of letting my frustrations at times, result in a less than gracious post, which I regret.

The whole buisness of training horses should be centred on the horse but so often other issues have such an influence that what is trying to be achieved is lost. Whether the traditional or natural (I do dislike these tags) approach is taken, the horse is the most important factor in everything, and many many traditional trainers achieve spectacular results without the integrity of the horse being lost.

My personal preference is for the natural approach in training horses, as I suppose is plain, but this cannot be done without training the person, and this in my experience is so hard. A horse trained in natural methods is never a compatable match for a traditional horseperson, but to train the person in these methods needs commitment and a willingness to think outside the accepted  perceptions of horse training.

Without Monty Roberts and Pat Parelli, this particular type of natural horsemanship would not have the profile it does in the UK, and the myriad of other trainers who perhaps have benefitted from their work would be little known and in little demand. Indeed these threads would never exist. Of course with the high profile comes the microscopic analysis of everything they do and say. The whole science of natural horsemanship training is constantly evolving and techniques can be altered, improved or even abandoned as understanding and experience increases.

The video clips of the last 20yrs are constantly played, replayed, analysed and commented upon, but none of this is set in stone, indeed everyone treats horses differently now than we did all those years ago. By their very nature horses will always present a challenge or exhibit some behaviour or other which will thwart even the most experienced, and this is all part of the fascination of horses.

If anyone wants to be a part of natural horse training, they have a perceived idea of how they and their horse will relate and interact. How their mearest thought will somehow result in a fantastic soft response from their horse. 
To acheive this takes time and training and technique and we all have to start somewhere. I like this quote 'In working with people and trying to help them with something, I find it isn't easy for me to get them to work in the area where it seems they need to work. They keep trying to work at the end result. - Tom Dorrance

So when we see a trainer putting  pressure on a horse at the start of its training, we must not forget that the end result will be the lightest of pressure, a little way down the line when acceptance and understanding have been achieved.

Whatever level of pressure you see watch for the release, it is the release that teaches and the release is the reward for the slightest try.


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## amandap (22 April 2011)

fburton said:



			I like it!  (Well I would, wouldn't I? )
		
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 I'm still looking for that elusive one word that descibes the Horsemanship I aspire to. lol 




AndySpooner said:



			Whatever level of pressure you see watch for the release, it is the release that teaches and the release is the reward for the slightest try.
		
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So true.  The release is the 'yes, that's what I want'. I've got into trouble (many discussions lol) calling the release a reward. In behavioural speak it isn't technically a reward I believe.


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## mcnaughty (22 April 2011)

FFS!  I know Easter is the time to think about the resurrection but why can't some subjects be put to bed - or event PSTS!!!  This has been done to death!


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## Kelly Marks (22 April 2011)

It wasn't me!  Pudding Face started it!


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## PuddingandPie (23 April 2011)

mcnaughty said:



			FFS!  I know Easter is the time to think about the resurrection but why can't some subjects be put to bed - or event PSTS!!!  This has been done to death!
		
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I am sorry you feel that this subject has over discussed in the past but new owners/trainees/riders are getting into horses every day and they are part of why I raised the concerns I have.  I am not here pointing fingers at individuals - of which there are many, not just the two who are being mentioned frequently.  I appreciate there are many ways to "skin a cat" but I don't know how we can assist newcomers to horses in their decisions with regard to training their horses and indeed themselves.  At a demo a couple of years ago I saw an NH trainer, as they described themselves, make a TB mare lie on the floor flat out and then stand on her belly "to prove how relaxed she is".  There was thunderous applause but I was appalled as the mare looked clearly unhappy and then I saw her whacked in the face to make her get up again.  Hardly unacceptable.  Traditional trainers can also have a lot to answer for but it is not what I wanted to discuss in this thread.


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## PuddingandPie (23 April 2011)

PuddingandPie said:



			I am sorry you feel that this subject has over discussed in the past but new owners/trainees/riders are getting into horses every day and they are part of why I raised the concerns I have.  I am not here pointing fingers at individuals - of which there are many, not just the two who are being mentioned frequently.  I appreciate there are many ways to "skin a cat" but I don't know how we can assist newcomers to horses in their decisions with regard to training their horses and indeed themselves.  At a demo a couple of years ago I saw an NH trainer, as they described themselves, make a TB mare lie on the floor flat out and then stand on her belly "to prove how relaxed she is".  There was thunderous applause but I was appalled as the mare looked clearly unhappy and then I saw her whacked in the face to make her get up again.  Hardly unacceptable.  Traditional trainers can also have a lot to answer for but it is not what I wanted to discuss in this thread.  Perhaps you could provide your recommendations if you have a moment to help.
		
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## Amaranta (23 April 2011)

mcnaughty said:



			FFS!  I know Easter is the time to think about the resurrection but why can't some subjects be put to bed - or event PSTS!!!  This has been done to death!
		
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Get a damn grip!  Who made you the forum police?

People are discussing a subject, if you don't like that subject - don't open the posts - simple as!


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## Alyth (23 April 2011)

This would have to be one of the best discussions of "natural horsemanship" in any forum.  Congratulations to all of you for maintaining a balanced and logical argument.  
A special congrats should go to Andy Spooner and Amanda for their restraint!!  Please continue!!


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## amandap (23 April 2011)

PuddingandPie said:



			At a demo a couple of years ago I saw an NH trainer, as they described themselves, make a TB mare lie on the floor flat out and then stand on her belly "to prove how relaxed she is".  There was thunderous applause but I was appalled as the mare looked clearly unhappy and then I saw her whacked in the face to make her get up again.  Hardly unacceptable.
		
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This sort of stuff is a personal hate of mine. It may well be my human values but I find standing on horses and especially teaching them to lie down to be stood on insulting, demeaning and degrading to the horse and I'm sure someone standing on your ribs isn't comfortable. I'm not a huge lover of trick training though but that's a foible of mine. Again how this stuff is trained is the important thing really I suppose but somehow humans standing on a horse speaks volumes to me about how the horse is valued as an individual being. 

Thanks for the support Alyth, I take a back seat when swearing is an answer I'm afraid. Andy has made some great posts imo.


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## PuddingandPie (23 April 2011)

Thank you all so much for your continued balanced and restrained participation and I am extremely grateful to have had the honour of knowledgeable people putting forward their views.  Now I woulld like to ask a question which many may feel is stupid but here goes!

If pressure, say on a halter, is negative reinforcement, is the release of that pressure then called positive reinforcement?  To just work using positive reinforcement how would you avoid the negative in the first place?

I am trying to get my head around this!  Thank you for keeping this discussion alive!


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## PuddingandPie (23 April 2011)

Thank you!


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## mcnaughty (23 April 2011)

PuddingandPie said:



			Thank you all so much for your continued balanced and restrained participation and I am extremely grateful to have had the honour of knowledgeable people putting forward their views.  Now I woulld like to ask a question which many may feel is stupid but here goes!

If pressure, say on a halter, is negative reinforcement, is the release of that pressure then called positive reinforcement?  To just work using positive reinforcement how would you avoid the negative in the first place?

I am trying to get my head around this!  Thank you for keeping this discussion alive!
		
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What?  Sorry, I am obviously feeling very stupid here but what on earth are you trying to get at?  The basics of any horse's education stems from them yielding to pressure - they yield to the pressure and the pressure stops.  This is not NH basics, this is old school basics.


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## amandap (23 April 2011)

You need fburton really for those questions PuddingandPie.
Very basically...
Negative reinforcement is the removal of an aversive stimulus. (pressure in this case)
Positive reinforcement is adding something of value immediately after a behaviour.

My simple explanation and understanding. In practice to ask a horse to step back for example. Touch and press lightly on the chest, as soon as there is a smallest of response, release. That's negative reinforcement. For positive reinforcement then give a treat the horse likes or scratch.

Hopefully fburton will explain more clearly and correctly.


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## BonneMaman (23 April 2011)

mcnaughty said:



			FFS!  I know Easter is the time to think about the resurrection but why can't some subjects be put to bed - or event PSTS!!!  This has been done to death!
		
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LOL - I agree!  What a complete load of old bow locks!  Perhaps if we keep repeating ourselves over and over and over and over again the outcome will be different?   Errr No.....


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## amandap (23 April 2011)

PuddingandPie, your question is not stupid at all in fact it's a very important question and something I've struggled to understand. Learning theory is a complicated subject to try and understand at first, all the terms have specific meanings for a start.


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## PuddingandPie (23 April 2011)

mcnaughty said:



			What?  Sorry, I am obviously feeling very stupid here but what on earth are you trying to get at?  The basics of any horse's education stems from them yielding to pressure - they yield to the pressure and the pressure stops.  This is not NH basics, this is old school basics.
		
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I understand what you are saying and use pressure and release but what confuses me is when some people say they only use positive reinforcement and not negative.  I suppose what I am trying to say is how can you use one without the other?  I always reward my horses when they respond in the way I am seeking although sometimes, when the herd panics about something, like noises whilst they are in the barn, I may get pushed about in their rush to get outside again...more usually the foals than their dams.  Apologies if I am confusing the issue even more!


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## BonneMaman (23 April 2011)

Is it not just a play on words?  The negative is hitting and the positive is not hitting?  I would just call it teaching.  If the horse pulls back you are applying pressure to the halter - I would call it a negative reinforcement at that point because you are applying pressure but when they release and come forward it is positive because it is not applying pressure?  Does it really matter what we call it?  It is only words - I use training methods that work for me - I don't call it names, I just call it training.  We are all being trained throughout our lives (horses and humans) - I don't need to give it a title to make it official, its just learning.


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## mcnaughty (23 April 2011)

Amaranta said:



			Get a damn grip!  Who made you the forum police?

People are discussing a subject, if you don't like that subject - don't open the posts - simple as!
		
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LOL - read the title of the thread - I don't call that a discussion subject - I'd call that Divisive.  I am also entitled to my opinion and my opinion is that this has been done to death and bring it up again and again for the sake of an argument is pointless drivel.  

Why can't people stick to what type of training they enjoy and believe in and stop attacking other people's beliefs?  And, no, I am NOT a NH advocate!  I am actually very old school is most of my training methods but am open minded enough to use whatever works for any one particular animal and not just attack a method for the sake of it.


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## Amaranta (23 April 2011)

PuddingandPie said:



			I understand what you are saying and use pressure and release but what confuses me is when some people say they only use positive reinforcement and not negative.  I suppose what I am trying to say is how can you use one without the other?  I always reward my horses when they respond in the way I am seeking although sometimes, when the herd panics about something, like noises whilst they are in the barn, I may get pushed about in their rush to get outside again...more usually the foals than their dams.  Apologies if I am confusing the issue even more!
		
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I agree with you Puddingandpie, those people who only use positive don't understand horses IMHO.  Sometimes (not always) you have to have the negative before you can give the positive, left to their own devices in a herd this is how horses would behave themselves with the leader's lieutenant generally being the one to take action.

I would probably describe myself as 'traditional', however, I do keep an open mind and am surprised that some of the 'training' I use is exactly the same as those who support the 'natural' form of horsemanship

I think that the problem between the two is down to human frailty, the trads believe that all naturals are bunny huggers who never discipline their horses and the naturals believe the trads are all horse beaters who just want to dominate.  Neither scenario is true and I am willing to bet that there are lots of 'trads' who use 'natural' methods without even being aware of it and vice versa.

Speaking for myself, I really dislike the circus element that surrounds many 'natural' movements, purely because I believe that many of the people who then go on to try the methods do not have the horse sense to utilise them properly, then you get confused horses and sometimes, unintentional abuse.  The same can happen with traditional  methods, I would not for a moment dispute this.

As I said, way back on page 1  good horsemanship is good horsemanship regardless, take a bit of everything, mix it all together, take the stuff that works for THAT particular horse and discard the stuff that does'nt, be prepared to alter your methods for the next horse, because what works for one will not necessarily work for another.


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## amandap (23 April 2011)

BonneMaman said:



			Is it not just a play on words?  The negative is hitting and the positive is not hitting?  I would just call it teaching.  If the horse pulls back you are applying pressure to the halter - I would call it a negative reinforcement at that point because you are applying pressure but when they release and come forward it is positive because it is not applying pressure?  Does it really matter what we call it?  It is only words - I use training methods that work for me - I don't call it names, I just call it training.  We are all being trained throughout our lives (horses and humans) - I don't need to give it a title to make it official, its just learning.
		
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The reason to get the difference is that the horse 'coming forward' releasing the pressure is the reinforcement, so your example is negative reinforcement.
Positive reinforcement is adding/giving something the horse values such as a scratch or treat not the release of pressure. To me the release of pressure means 'yes that's what I want' to give a reward (positive reinforcement) I would need to add (give) the horse something to say 'thankyou', if you like.

I've realized it is important to see the difference so that I increase the amount of positive reinforcement (rewards) I give my horses. Seeing the release as a reward isn't truely correct and isn't a proper _reward_ for the horse. The release is vital for saying 'yes, that's what I want' and then give a treat for eg. to say... and 'thanks', so the horse is even more motivated to perform and 'try' for you. 

Hope I haven't confused everyone... 

Positive means adding and negative means take away (release) in this context.
So if you hit you are giving positive punishment. Adding a hit/slap...


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## Amaranta (23 April 2011)

mcnaughty said:



			LOL - read the title of the thread - I don't call that a discussion subject - I'd call that Divisive.  I am also entitled to my opinion and my opinion is that this has been done to death and bring it up again and again for the sake of an argument is pointless drivel.  

Why can't people stick to what type of training they enjoy and believe in and stop attacking other people's beliefs?  And, no, I am NOT a NH advocate!  I am actually very old school is most of my training methods but am open minded enough to use whatever works for any one particular animal and not just attack a method for the sake of it.
		
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McNaughty, if you had actually read the thread you would see that people have NOT been abusive, people have discussed, in a grown up manner, not one person lambasted either side, you are the only one who has been aggressive.

I am not NH either btw.


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## AndySpooner (23 April 2011)

Why would anyone think NH is new? 

Very old school or classical is probably as NH as you can get.

The circus comparison comes from having the control and authority to direct where a horse puts its feet, so where better to demonstrate this than on a pedestal. It's a demonstration, that's all.


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## amandap (23 April 2011)

Amaranta said:



			As I said, way back on page 1  good horsemanship is good horsemanship regardless,
		
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This is so true imo. Sadly I'm not someone who instictively is a good trainer so I've had to work hard to learn how to communicate with and teach my horses what I expect and am asking of them.


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## AndySpooner (23 April 2011)

Amanda, excellent explanation for positive and negative re enforcement. I love the idea of adding a slap or blow as an example of positive. Kind of turns it on its head a bit, lol.


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## intouch (23 April 2011)

amandap said:



			This is so true imo. Sadly I'm not someone who instictively is a good trainer so I've had to work hard to learn how to communicate with and teach my horses what I expect and am asking of them.
		
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I'm enjoying this excellent, informative and balanced thread.  

Amandap, I so agree, I think the bigest challenge any of us faces is learning to communicate with the horse - and to learn to first recognise then reward the try.      

It's a pity that the expression Negative Reinforcement seems to be seen as "bad" - it's surely just the other side of a coin. Even with clicker training, you have to ask the horse to act (negative) before you reward (positive).  Otherwise why do most CTs and behaviourists still need to ride with bits?


I would go further and suggest that the horse knows how to behave - what we need to learn from him is how we should behave so that the horse responds in the way we would like him to.  

Sorry if that's a bit convoluted - basically saying that we learn from the horse, we don't really teach him anything he doesn't already know.  And I accept it's idealistic.

Hoping to add to the discussion rather than stir, in this instance!


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## better half (23 April 2011)

amandap said:



			Not that I've ever performed it but surely once again it's down to HOW it is done and with which horses and owners? 
It's like saying round pens, advance and retreat, clickers or bridles are bad? It's not the tool it's the skill of the user that really matters surely? 

Click to expand...

You don't need a hammer to break an egg.

Between pressure and release is feel  - read Tom Dorrance 'True Unity'


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## Natch (23 April 2011)

Negative reinforcement is endemic (if thats the right word) to ALL horsemanship, with the exception of clicker training. Most training involves the application of a negative stimulus (eg leg aid or other pressue) which is removed when the horse produces the correct response. Maybe people confuse it with punishment?


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## fburton (23 April 2011)

mcnaughty said:



			What?  Sorry, I am obviously feeling very stupid here but what on earth are you trying to get at?  The basics of any horse's education stems from them yielding to pressure - they yield to the pressure and the pressure stops.  This is not NH basics, this is old school basics.
		
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Do you think that it's better to teach manners and enforce boundaries by emulating a dominant mare, or some other way? Is it important to be seen as dominant? Can a person be in control of (and safe around) a horse _without_ emulating the alpha mare? Or does everything come down to yielding to pressure?

That's what interests me in this discussion of Natural Horsemanship and I don't think it's been done to death before - at least, not on this forum. (If you know where it has already been hashed out in great detail, please let me know!)


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## amandap (23 April 2011)

fburton said:



			Do you think that it's better to teach manners and enforce boundaries by emulating a dominant mare, or some other way? Is it important to be seen as dominant? Can a person be in control of (and safe around) a horse _without_ emulating the alpha mare? Or does everything come down to yielding to pressure?
		
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So do you equate yielding to pressure ('responding' to me lol) with a dominant mare scenario? Is the word yielding crucial here? lol ie. 'submit'?

Mta... all my poo picking ponderings have left my brain now! lol


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## fburton (23 April 2011)

amandap said:



			You need fburton really for those questions PuddingandPie.
Very basically...
Negative reinforcement is the removal of an aversive stimulus. (pressure in this case)
Positive reinforcement is adding something of value immediately after a behaviour.

My simple explanation and understanding. In practice to ask a horse to step back for example. Touch and press lightly on the chest, as soon as there is a smallest of response, release. That's negative reinforcement. For positive reinforcement then give a treat the horse likes or scratch.

Hopefully fburton will explain more clearly and correctly. 

Click to expand...

No, I think you've already done a great job, Amanda. 

However, if anyone wants to read more, here's the link that was posted to the IHDG recently:

http://www.wagntrain.com/OC/

And something I wrote a long time ago on how horses learn in general, which introduces a few of the scientific terms:

"Horses learn in various ways. One simple type of learning is 'habituation', in which the response to a particular stimulus becomes less and eventually ceases with repetition. Thus a horse becomes quickly desensitised to frequent sights and sounds which are initially alarming but turn out to be harmless. The horse may react again to the same stimulus after a long time without exposure ('spontaneous recovery'), but typically re-habituates more rapidly. Habituation may be used to get a horse accustomed to unfamiliar objects or procedures (e.g. clippers). 

In 'flooding', a horse is confined or restrained so that it cannot escape while being exposed repeatedly to the stimulus, until the horse ignores the stimulus and becomes calm again. A gentler alternative is called 'progressive de-sensitisation'. Here exposure to the stimulus is carefully controlled so that the horse never becomes fearful enough to precipitate the flight reaction. This approach takes longer, but is less likely to have secondary effects on the horse's attitude to people. 

Other kinds of learning involve associating between two events. In 'classical conditioning', a horse learns that a signal or cue, initially of no significance, is followed by an event or stimulus which is significant (and which produces a response). For example, in the wild, the appearance of a predator may be preceded by the alarm call of a bird. By learning this natural signal, a horse's ability to survive may be increased. In the domestic setting, a horse may similarly learn to associate the sound of buckets with feeding. 

In 'operant conditioning', also known as trial and error learning, the performance of a behaviour is changed by the consequences of that behaviour, which may be pleasant or unpleasant. When a newborn foal discovers where its mother's teats are located, it is immediately rewarded with its first drink. The foal's tendency to head for a dark under-surface may be instinctive, but the most efficient ways to obtain milk are learned through trial and error. In this example, suckling behaviour is learned through 'positive reinforcement': something pleasant occurs after the initial action of sucking which makes the action more likely to occur again on future occasions. The 'something' here is the ingestion of milk, which satisfies a physiological need. 

'Negative reinforcement' also increases the likelihood of an action. However, in this case the action is performed in order to escape or avoid an unpleasant or aversive stimulus. Thus a horse learns to yield to pressure applied through a halter. By moving his head in the direction of pull, he is rewarded by an instant release of pressure and regaining of comfort. With good timing, lighter and lighter contact can be learned. 

In contrast, punishment is an aversive stimulus given after an action with the intention of decreasing its likelihood. It may succeed in stopping an unwanted behaviour, but in general it is an antiquated approach not well-suited to horses. It may make a fearful horse more afraid or an aggressive horse more aggressive. These emotional states are not conducive to learning. 

Alternatively, a horse might habituate to repeated, ineffectual aversive stimuli. Some 'punishments', such as shouting at a horse that kicks its stable door, may actually reward the behaviour because the horse has succeeded in getting your attention. In such cases it is better to ignore the offending behaviour completely until it extinguishes itself. 

In training which relies on associative learning, timing is crucial. The reward or release should be delivered as soon after the desired action as possible. If it is delayed more than a second or two, it may be useless, or worse - you may be rewarding the wrong thing. For this reason, verbal praise, stroking or some other signal (such as a click) may be used as 'secondary reinforcers' which can be given in a more precisely timed way They may bridge the delay between the action and the primary reward (usually a treat), or may substitute for food if perceived as pleasant. Rewarding every time ('continuous reinforcement') is useful in the early stages of training. However, if the rewards stop so does the trained behaviour, a process called 'extinction'. By rewarding only once every few successful attempts ('intermittent reinforcement') extinction is reduced and the lesson retained for longer. 

Teaching a horse a complex skill, such as jumping, is made easier by 'shaping'. This involves reinforcing successive approximations, a step at a time, towards the final goal. Sequences of actions can be taught by 'chaining' simpler actions together. 

Horses may learn through imitation, though convincing scientific evidence for this is lacking. However, some learning, such as the location of water, may be facilitated by following and watching other horses. It is no longer thought that vices such as cribbing and weaving are acquired through imitation."


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## fburton (23 April 2011)

amandap said:



			So do you equate yielding to pressure ('responding' to me lol) with a dominant mare scenario?
		
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Absolutely not! I just posed those questions as being interesting and relevant to the NH discussion.


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## amandap (23 April 2011)

fburton said:



			Absolutely not! I just posed those questions as being interesting and relevant to the NH discussion.
		
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Ok then.


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## Natch (23 April 2011)

good post fb  Interesting question though. Id say a dominant horse would require others to yield to his or her pressure. No matter how equal a relationship we try to have, we must have the greater say for safety's sake. 

I dont think a passive leader (horse) would ask another horse to yield, but what do you guys think? Id say they are more likely to just be where the other horses would want to be too. Im very much for passive leadership but actually think we need elements of dominance at times too.

If we had to say pressure and release was most like either a dominant mare or a passive leader, I would class it as a dominant horse behaviour. I dont like classifying it as sucb because to me now it is just a learning style which all horses are adept at. Any thoughts?


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## AndySpooner (23 April 2011)

Naturally said:



			good post fb  Interesting question though. Id say a dominant horse would require others to yield to his or her pressure. No matter how equal a relationship we try to have, we must have the greater say for safety's sake. 

I dont think a passive leader (horse) would ask another horse to yield, but what do you guys think? Id say they are more likely to just be where the other horses would want to be too. Im very much for passive leadership but actually think we need elements of dominance at times too.

If we had to say pressure and release was most like either a dominant mare or a passive leader, I would class it as a dominant horse behaviour. I dont like classifying it as sucb because to me now it is just a learning style which all horses are adept at. Any thoughts?
		
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Once again the question of dominance and leadership in relation to application and release of pressure is influenced by human perceptions of pressure and dominance.

If we take the role of leadership amongst horses you have to look at a wild herd because free from unnatural human influence is where this developed and without it the successful development the species would have become extinct. Therefore the role of the lead mare is vital not only in the survival of the individual horses but also of the species.

I would argue that because the lead mare is the prime mover in the success of the herd then she is not challenged, as challenges occur in human society, horses do not seek promotion, therefore she does not need to display dominance to maintain her position. It is a role fillies are born into and trained up for, they do not have to fight for a leadership role.

Horses will accept the leadership role of the mare and are content to follow as long as their basic needs are being catered for. Where dominance comes into play within a herd is the interaction between herd members competing between themselves to enhance their individual chances of preseving and expanding their own gene pool. ie. moving a less dominant horse from a more attractive grazing spot, or achieving a safer position within the herd.

Because humans find perceived benefits in being leaders, competition arises for that position where more dominant people succeed, therefore the dominated find it unpleasant which is the spur to compete. We then transpose these feelings onto our horses, feelings they do not have.

Because of the non verbal comunication between horses is so well tuned we perceive thier communication as pressure. The first faze being eye contact, a subtle pressure, which normally works in a herd situation and so is rarely increased. In a 24 hr period how many interactions must take place between horses based on eye contact alone which we are unaware of. It is only when the fazes become stronger, ie. ear positions, contact etc. when we actually notice things happening.

Our interaction with horses will no doubt be seen as crude, from the horses perspective, and the application of higher fazes of pressure, very crude. Compound this with a failure to release that pressure as quickly as a horse will and our lack of communication and understanding, it is little wonder that horses find it difficult to understand what we want.


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## better half (24 April 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			Once again the question of dominance and leadership in relation to application and release of pressure is influenced by human perceptions of pressure and dominance.
If we take the role of leadership amongst horses you have to look at a wild herd because free from unnatural human influence is where this developed and without it the successful development the species would have become extinct. Therefore the role of the lead mare is vital not only in the survival of the individual horses but also of the species.
I would argue that because the lead mare is the prime mover in the success of the herd then she is not challenged, as challenges occur in human society, horses do not seek promotion, therefore she does not need to display dominance to maintain her position. It is a role fillies are born into and trained up for, they do not have to fight for a leadership role.
Horses will accept the leadership role of the mare and are content to follow as long as their basic needs are being catered for. Where dominance comes into play within a herd is the interaction between herd members competing between themselves to enhance their individual chances of preseving and expanding their own gene pool. ie. moving a less dominant horse from a more attractive grazing spot, or achieving a safer position within the herd.
Because humans find perceived benefits in being leaders, competition arises for that position where more dominant people succeed, therefore the dominated find it unpleasant which is the spur to compete. We then transpose these feelings onto our horses, feelings they do not have.
Because of the non verbal comunication between horses is so well tuned we perceive thier communication as pressure. The first faze being eye contact, a subtle pressure, which normally works in a herd situation and so is rarely increased. In a 24 hr period how many interactions must take place between horses based on eye contact alone which we are unaware of. It is only when the fazes become stronger, ie. ear positions, contact etc. when we actually notice things happening.
Our interaction with horses will no doubt be seen as crude, from the horses perspective, and the application of higher fazes of pressure, very crude. Compound this with a failure to release that pressure as quickly as a horse will and our lack of communication and understanding, it is little wonder that horses find it difficult to understand what we want.
		
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I like your post.

Horses co-operate with each other for survival and it works for them as they are very good at it,  we still have a lot to learn about how to get them to co-operate with us with out resulting to pressure halters and sending them away to make them feel vulnerable so they have no choice but to stay with us. 

  I think the original NH was about  &#8216;making it their idea to do what we want&#8217;.  This takes working with 100&#8217;s of horses to gain experience and develop a feel for them and understand their complex emotions.    First know they have emotions &#8216;some zoologists are only just admitting they do have emotions&#8217;. 

   What if there is no dominate mare in herds and we have it all wrong,  in the study on lactating mares maybe it was just that they needed to drink so they went to find water so the rest of the herd followed, as they know it is just for the good of the herd.   If they have security, food and water they won&#8217;t want anything more so there is no need to fight most of the time the herd will be silent with no trouble.

  Humans can be to abrupt with each other and cause conflict on many levels .  Horses rarely cause conflict in this way and this is what we can learn from them as they usually get the balance just right in their relationships.


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## PuddingandPie (29 April 2011)

Our interaction with horses will no doubt be seen as crude, from the horses perspective, and the application of higher fazes of pressure, very crude. Compound this with a failure to release that pressure as quickly as a horse will and our lack of communication and understanding, it is little wonder that horses find it difficult to understand what we want. 

I think the original posting is now being answered!   What Andy writes above makes such sense and what has worried me in all "interactions and timings" with horses.  But now it raises another question!  I have a herd of mares who manage to kick eachother (except of course the herd leader!) for what appears to me to be purely to "bully" eachother..supposedly all dominant in their own way!  I would also like to add that I only have to call the herd leader once and she will gallop over bringing the rest with her and she never knows why she is being called as I don't carry titbits.

Onto "pressure"..where does it leave the application of a direct rein against an indirect rein?

I feel another forum posting coming on!


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## fburton (29 April 2011)

PuddingandPie said:



			I think the original posting is now being answered!   What Andy writes above makes such sense and what has worried me in all "interactions and timings" with horses.  But now it raises another question!  I have a herd of mares who manage to kick eachother (except of course the herd leader!) for what appears to me to be purely to "bully" eachother..supposedly all dominant in their own way!  I would also like to add that I only have to call the herd leader once and she will gallop over bringing the rest with her and she never knows why she is being called as I don't carry titbits.
		
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I reckon that once it's accepted that, for horses, dominance and leadership are completely different things, the kind of interactions you describe make more sense.

Dominance is achieved and maintained through threats of aggression, and, if those aren't heeded, aggression itself. It can serve a useful function to stop horses actually coming to blows over some scarce resource that is valuable (and desirable) enough to be worth competing for. Unfortunately, the presence of something desirable - such as feed or a pile of hay to hungry horses - can provoke unnecessary and counterproductive aggression between individuals. This can sometimes turn into a habit of bullying. Viewed this way, dominance has nothing to do with leadership. Why would horses choose to follow a bully or dominant? If they do (which sometimes happens), it is _in spite_ of , not _because_ of, the dominant's aggressiveness.

Finally, it's worth noting that being dominant isn't an absolute guarantee of not being kicked. When threatened by a dominant, a subordinate horse will always try to move away, but if that isn't possible because there isn't space to do so (e.g. due to fencing and/or the crowding of other horses), they may kick out in defence. This has nothing to do with whether the subordinate 'respects' the dominant or not - it is purely down to self-protective instinct.


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## AengusOg (29 April 2011)

Horses instinctively lean into physical pressure. They are hard-wired to do it. Therefore all horses, at some point in their lives must be taught how to yield to pressure. It is the most important lesson they will learn, and is the foundation for their successful training.

Horses which do not yield to pressure are horses which are bargy, who nap, or who behave badly in other ways in-hand and under saddle. 

Pressure must be applied in such a way, and to such an extent, as to encourage the horse to offer some favourable response, whilst avoiding any resistance from him. Too little pressure, and the horse will be unlikely to offer any response; too much pressure, and the horse will likely resist, and may panic, may attempt to run through the pressure, or may try to flee and, if unable to do so, may become aggressive.


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## Natch (30 April 2011)

fburton said:



			Why would horses choose to follow a bully or dominant? If they do (which sometimes happens), it is _in spite_ of , not _because_ of, the dominant's aggressiveness.
		
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I reckon its applicable to draw a paralell to our human workplace. An agressive boss is definately a boss, and you do things for him because you don't want to be yelled at. So horses keep away from a dominant horse's pile of hay, and adpot behaviour which is least likely to antagonise them. The horse in this instance is in charge. A human manager who is a good leader on the other hand, empowers you to do your job, allows you the space to do it, rewards a job well done, and only steps in with constructive criticism if they feel its necessary, which is usually rarely. That horse's herd will respect this horse as a leader without fear, and I would argue are a less stressed bunch who learn more easily. Both herds of horses survive, at least in that generation.

I've seen a dominant horse's relationship with a very submissive horse, and its stressful to watch: the two are "best buddies" because the submissive one is very reliant on the dominant one, to the point of yelling for him if he leaves the field - the dominant one couldn't give two hoots about leaving his friend behind, but my god if he wants a mutual groom he'll go and get one off him, or woe betide! It reminds me a lot of a stereotypical bullying man in a relationship with a subservient woman. By luck or judgement, the dominant horse became less dominant and more of a leader as he aged, and the picture became a lot more pleasant. Interestingly this coincided with my relationship with this horse evolving to be more understanding and more of a partnership, as I became more aware of my style of riding and handling. Did I teach him to be more compassionate towards his fieldmate? Was he less stressed as a result of more leadership and less dominance from me? Was I nothing to do with the pair's relationship, or did my relationship with the horse ease as his relationship in the field evolved? Who knows, but its interesting to speculate! 

Apologies for the abundance of examples of humans used in my posts about horses today, but hopefully you can see they are relevant examples. Ironically I'm the first to disagree with personnification of horses, but I think drawing comparisons is sometimes useful


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## amandap (30 April 2011)

Naturally said:



			Apologies for the abundance of examples of humans used in my posts about horses today, but hopefully you can see they are relevant examples. Ironically I'm the first to disagree with personnification of horses, but I think drawing comparisons is sometimes useful 

Click to expand...

I do too and actually don't see it as anthropomorhism automatically. 

I've sort of begun to think that leadership and dominance are of little relevance to me and my horses recently. It has cleared up my trying to make these words fit with what I aim for. These terms just seem to muddy the waters as we all have our own interpretation of their meaning.


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## better half (30 April 2011)

I think it is more about the intelligence of some mares not the dominace that gives them the lead.  They may have the idea first and the rest follow for safety.  

A good 'boss'  will lead by example not threats and may correct but not punish.  If any member of the herd feels fear the rest will respect the fear and they will all go without waiting for the Lead mare to make the decision.


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## Orange Peel. (30 April 2011)

I have only read the OP so sorry if it's been said or anythng.. I use Ttouch with my youngster and he enjoys it (I hope.) I do like Monty Roberts join up too..


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## better half (30 April 2011)

I think that is where the circus act starts,  it shows communication but at an extreme level.  

'There is no object in teaching a horse to follow the trainer around the corral or out in the open without hallter or restraint except for effect.'
Quote from Breaking and training the stock Horse - Charles O Williamson 1950


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## amandap (30 April 2011)

better half said:



			'There is no object in teaching a horse to follow the trainer around the corral or out in the open without hallter or restraint except for effect.'
Quote from Breaking and training the stock Horse - Charles O Williamson 1950
		
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Actually, I find it pretty useful if I forget a headcollar or decide to bring a horse in for some un planned reason.


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## better half (30 April 2011)

I would watch your insurance cover if I was you. lol


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## amandap (30 April 2011)

I have my horses at home and actually they are loose much of the time but good idea to check. No idea what difference it makes in my case tbh, they're not going to run away. lol. I never 'go loose' outside my property and my gates are always closed btw.


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## AndySpooner (1 May 2011)

It is difficult I suppose trying to demonstrate a high level of training without it being reminiscent of a circus act. Having said that it is only because circuses have become synonymous with poor animal welfare that the actual training had to be pretty impressive. You just wouldn't be able to do that with force, despite the theatricals. Hence the title of the thread being a bit devicive.
I do agree with Better Half that the 'join up' is rather too much, and a bit pointless, for building a proper relationship. I think that getting saddle, bridle and rider on in such a short time is mistake, which could explain the need for the patented pressure halter, later on.


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## amandap (1 May 2011)

Yes, many do not like join up. Fair enough, to me as I've said often, it's how it is used and carried out that matters and tbh I find the techniques learned about moving a horse and controlling it's speed and direction extremely useful in my being able to position myself without blocking the horse etc. etc. 
Learning the 'moves' has helped me with long lining, loose work and generally communicating with my horses through my body language and body positioning.
No doubt I could have learned these things elsewhere but reading about and watching JU in theory and then practicing the lessons about body language, position, and the horses responses has been invaluble to me personally.


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## jeeve (2 May 2011)

natural horsemanship is just good horsemanship. it is wrapping up the skill and knowledge of many many great horse people, and yes I get a bit tired of some of the marketing some NH use....but it works because it is just good horsemanship.

No doubt there are some less than desirable practitioners of NH just like you get bad trainers in every other field be it racing, dressage, jumping, showing whatever

I have had some top people give me some invaluable skills


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## amandap (2 May 2011)

Here's Anna Twinney talking about 'round pen work' if anyone is interested.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEgkbkRXaDg&feature=player_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBEdiCZNbQ8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxnH1Nwr3uM&feature=related

If you are interested do watch all three.


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## talkinghorse (2 May 2011)

amandap said:



			Here's Anna Twinney talking about 'round pen work' if anyone is interested.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEgkbkRXaDg&feature=player_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBEdiCZNbQ8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxnH1Nwr3uM&feature=related

If you are interested do watch all three.
		
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Thanks for posting these. 

A good way to allay the myths and nonsense about what really happens in a round pen. If anyone doesn't understand the point of Join-Up after listening to Anna Twinney here, they are never going to understand their horse and had better stick to bicycles.

I particularly like her 'kindergarten' analogy and the one about the 'contract'. I think she could have made more of 'giving the horse confidence' and 'safe secure area' but you can't get a whole fifteen years experience into fifteen minutes on YouTube.

Like any other piece of equipment, it's not the gadget, it's the intelligence of the person using it that gets the result.


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## amandap (2 May 2011)

talkinghorse said:



			I particularly like her 'kindergarten' analogy and the one about the 'contract'.
		
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I first heard a kindergarden analogy from Carolyn Resnick and liked it then. Once the horse understands the rules/relationship you start to up the tempo slowly and can ask more.


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## PuddingandPie (4 May 2011)

Just posted a very long reply and the website crashed!!!   Oh help me!!


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## unicornleather (4 May 2011)

Annoying when that happens, so I now write it in Word then save it every so often incase laptop crashes, then paste it on forum, saves losing it all!
Oz


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## cob&onion (5 May 2011)

My mum has a big clydesdale x cob, he was very rude, pushy and sometimes dangerous on the ground. He was difficult to ride, very sluggish and stubborn. She had a lady in to help her with some ground manners - a natural horsemanship person, can honestly say that hes completely different now, hes much much more manageable and now has mannors to burn.  It has taken a while, he has been doing it now for 3 years.  Mums doing western riding with him which he seems alot happier about, he actually enjoys his work now and his new style of riding


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## giveitago (5 May 2011)

Better half, 

You miss the whole point entirely..

It's not a circus act to have your horse with you without constraint! It shows  that your horse trusts you to lead Thus enabling a confidence on your choice of direction, jump, speed, noise, and so on. 

If your horse will follow you on the ground you have a horse that will follow you anywhere.

And that is the basis of NH- trust!


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## better half (6 May 2011)

I have seen many top riders have their horses follow them and if you work with them fairly,  they will want to follow you through trust.  
  It is how it is achieved was the point,  I just think you cant force trust with join up and pressure halters this is not trust it is making the horse feel vulnerable causing  subjugation,  this way is an ultimatum  not a relationship built on trust.
Yes, I think Tom Dorrance as the father of Natural Horsemanship was a naturally talent man with great feel and understanding of horses.  Like anything that was pure to start with it is easily diluted. His book True Unity is very good.


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## PuddingandPie (7 May 2011)

I wondered if anyone had any thoughts on how the direct rein and indirect rein are taught using natural horsemanship if pressure and release are going to be affective.

I have really enjoyed the very balanced views coming out through this discussion and have opened my mind up more to different approaches.

Thank you!!


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## giveitago (7 May 2011)

Better half,

Aaah yes, now there's a thought!

Join up is unquantifiable when done in a very nice way but yes, thrashing a horse around a round pen till it has no choice but to follow really doesnt acheive much for a relationship.  I think the carrot approach is more appropriate.

I tend to think of horses much like teaching a four year old human, how do you need to change your approach etc, no one in their right mind would want to 'bully' a toddler, not the sort of long term relationship anyone would want.


Anyone read the books by lucy rees, thats a fairly good start.


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## Tinypony (7 May 2011)

PuddingandPie said:



			I wondered if anyone had any thoughts on how the direct rein and indirect rein are taught using natural horsemanship if pressure and release are going to be affective.

I have really enjoyed the very balanced views coming out through this discussion and have opened my mind up more to different approaches.

Thank you!!

Click to expand...

I think I understand what you are asking.  In Parelli they use 4 phases of pressure on the rein, with the aim that the horse will learn to respond at the first phase.  They might hang in and wait with steady and quite firm pressure, and I think sometimes will put a vibration in the rein if the horse doesn't react. I think that's roughly how it works.  I've been taught a bit differently, which is to ask with the lightest pressure and then back it up with something else.  What that is depends a bit on the horse, but slapping my leg often shows a horse that I'd like them to do something, and with indirect rein I might swap hands and pat the horse's bum with my hand, or use a touch of my leg.  Direct rein isn't normally that difficult because it's so firmly established on the ground.


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## PuddingandPie (8 May 2011)

I wondered if anyone had any thoughts on how the direct rein and indirect rein are taught using natural horsemanship if pressure and release are going to be affective.

Apologies I meant to say effective NOT affective....a bit like when I wanted to pay a compliment and told someone they looked very effluent instead of affluent!  Suffice to say they forgave me..when they had stopped laughing!


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## intouch (8 May 2011)

I'm no expert but I think the first thing you teach any horse, any method, is to come off pressure.  Horses are naturally "into pressure" beings, so it's not instinctive for them to yield to pressure, so it's important for them to realise that yielding to pressure = release = reward.  The softer they become the easier it is for horse and handler.

My understanding is that there is more of an opening rein used with a rope halter or bitless bridle than a direct rein, although as the horse gets softer, the weight of the reins are to some extent direct.  The indirect rein can be used to influence the hindquarters - eg the left hand is lifted slightly towards the right shoulder to move the quarters towards the right, along with the left leg.

Same as Classical, really.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_W4XfuJsW-Q&feature=player_embedded

This is an example of some really nice work, demonstrating the open & indirect rein as well as sympathetic basic training.


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## amandap (8 May 2011)

better half said:



			I have seen many top riders have their horses follow them and if you work with them fairly,  they will want to follow you through trust.  
  It is how it is achieved was the point,  I just think you cant force trust with join up and pressure halters this is not trust it is making the horse feel vulnerable causing  subjugation,  this way is an ultimatum  not a relationship built on trust.
Yes, I think Tom Dorrance as the father of Natural Horsemanship was a naturally talent man with great feel and understanding of horses.  Like anything that was pure to start with it is easily diluted. His book True Unity is very good.
		
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The way I see it is the horse is actually learning what you are asking. If you ask through force or too much pressure and without the horse understanding what you want then it isn't going to get the trust and cooperation we all hope to get fro our horses.

The problem with words like 'force' and subjugation' is they are very subjective. Some people see any 'asking' a horse even with a look to move back a step as force. I don't see it that way although of course you can try and force a horse to just stop responding to you and become 'putty in your hands' through fear and subjugation. 

Prompted by Betterhalf (don't have a copy of the book she recommends) I'm flipping through my copy of Bill Dorrance's (scribed by Leslie Desmond) book "True Horsemanship through feel", which I haven't looked at for some years. I recommend this book highly but it is difficult to get used to the style, as it is written as he spoke. 
He clearly outlines the importance of listening to what the horse is saying by observing it's reactions and demenour and working with that individual horse and practice practice, practice to get that 'feel' right.

Going a bit off track but reading Bill Dorrance's take on 'asking' a horse this time round has been a lightbulb moment for me. He says asking is something we human's can do when we speak to each other rather than between horses and humans.

I hope it's ok to quote a line from this book on here? These are Bill Dorrance's words scribed by Leslie Desmond, page 12 "True Horsemanship through Feel"

_"What we'll say is that before you can learn how to *present* something to the horse through feel that he's going to understand, you have to learn how to *observe* and make sense of the way he operates his body and how new information is processed in his mind."_

For a while I've used the word ask but reading this I think I need to change my focus. Thanks for the nudge BH. 

Nice video intouch.

Also for anyone interested, using pressure and release ridden is very clearly explained imo in a Mark Rashid DVD. 'Finding the Try'


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## better half (9 June 2011)

amandap said:



			The way I see it is the horse is actually learning what you are asking. If you ask through force or too much pressure and without the horse understanding what you want then it isn't going to get the trust and cooperation we all hope to get fro our horses.

The problem with words like 'force' and subjugation' is they are very subjective. Some people see any 'asking' a horse even with a look to move back a step as force. I don't see it that way although of course you can try and force a horse to just stop responding to you and become 'putty in your hands' through fear and subjugation. 

Prompted by Betterhalf (don't have a copy of the book she recommends) I'm flipping through my copy of Bill Dorrance's (scribed by Leslie Desmond) book "True Horsemanship through feel", which I haven't looked at for some years. I recommend this book highly but it is difficult to get used to the style, as it is written as he spoke. 
He clearly outlines the importance of listening to what the horse is saying by observing it's reactions and demenour and working with that individual horse and practice practice, practice to get that 'feel' right.

Going a bit off track but reading Bill Dorrance's take on 'asking' a horse this time round has been a lightbulb moment for me. He says asking is something we human's can do when we speak to each other rather than between horses and humans.

I hope it's ok to quote a line from this book on here? These are Bill Dorrance's words scribed by Leslie Desmond, page 12 "True Horsemanship through Feel"

_"What we'll say is that before you can learn how to *present* something to the horse through feel that he's going to understand, you have to learn how to *observe* and make sense of the way he operates his body and how new information is processed in his mind."_

For a while I've used the word ask but reading this I think I need to change my focus. Thanks for the nudge BH. 

Nice video intouch.

Also for anyone interested, using pressure and release ridden is very clearly explained imo in a Mark Rashid DVD. 'Finding the Try'
		
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One of the book's that made me stop and 'Think'


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## PuddingandPie (12 June 2011)

Interesting post.  Any idea where I can obtain a copy of this book/s?

Thank you.


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## intouch (12 June 2011)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/True-Unity-...=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1307918598&sr=1-1
This is the original version - I have seen an updated fancy copy with photos but it doesn't seem to be on Amazon.


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## muff747 (12 June 2011)

ridefast said:



			Notice how those that get famous tend to have some sob story - terrible childhood or terrible aggressive horse that noone else could handle and was going to be shot?
I however have perfectly well trained circus ponies, and you can too! All you need is my set of books and dvds - only £500 each, and for an extra £1000 you get an apple branch to hit your horse with but only the way it shows in my books - £750 each - if you do it any other way you will not create a true bond with your horse based on fear and dominance.
And now available my very own special apple flavoured headcollars bargain at £3000 each, specially designed to force your horse to behave whilst looking like excitable out of control beasts - buy it now with my set of books and dvds only £800 each, and you will be able to experience a truly harmonious relationship with your horse
		
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You've been told a MILLION times - don't exaggerate!!!


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## Foxhunter49 (13 June 2011)

I watched Monty Roberts when he first came over here. He was demonstrating at WIndsor for the Queen. Then the H&H brought him over and he did demos at Towerlands and  Stoneleigh. I took two horses to Towerlands, one a remedial and the other a totally unhandled filly. 
What did impress me was another remedial he had there. A horse that was terribly fearful and how it had been to several places to be broken but would not take a rider. It was relaxed with the owner but not with anyone else. MR worked with it and the horse accepted his rider. It was fascinating to watch.

Now, at that time there was no talk of abuse and he said he would do Join-up two or three days and then longrein the horses for two or three weeks before riding them away. 

Jump a few years and the story had changed a lot. He was working with problem horses and one a big warmblood was very nappy and refusing to jump. It was not surprising as the poor horse had tiny feet and very upright pasterns and to me looked lame on both front feet. He found a way of getting it going, with a very restrictive visor but never looked at the reason for it napping. That horse had navicular and was later put down.  So, for me the man who talks to horses needs to learn to listen to them.

The stories of him being beaten by his father, how he went out into the wilds and brought back herds of wild horses are a load of bull. His father had a reputation for being a very kind man with horses he worked with. 
Try reading Horse Whisperer and Lies written by his aunt and cousin.

I do not care for Pareli at all, he is a terrible horseman and at times more than abusive. For me he is useful for people who do not know how to train a horse and have more money than sense.

Both of these men started out with some good points but the hype and $$$$$$$$ has blinkered them into becoming nothing more than a circus.


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## AengusOg (13 June 2011)

I agree with this.



better half said:



			I have seen many top riders have their horses follow them and if you work with them fairly,  they will want to follow you through trust..
		
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But not with this.



better half said:



			It is how it is achieved was the point,  I just think you can&#8217;t force trust with join up and pressure halters this is not trust it is making the horse feel vulnerable causing  subjugation,  this way is an ultimatum  not a relationship built on trust.
.
		
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I have used Join-Up with some horses in the past, and I have to say it can do more harm than good IMO. Not all horses respond well to being sent away round a pen, and some just don't get it.

I much prefer to put a pressure halter on a horse and work with it on a long rope. It's very important to teach a horse how light pressure feels, and allow the horse to realise how he can free himself of pressure by yielding to it.

It only takes a few seconds for a horse to learn to yield to pressure, and that lesson will set him up for all his subsequent training. Once he has discovered that, if he pays attention to my movements and his position in relation to mine, he can avoid the pressure, he will be very easily handled and trained.

However, that only applies if the pressure used is light and the horse is given a fair chance to learn the correct response to a given cue. Any use of forceful pressure, or harsh use of the halter, is counter-productive, and will cause resistance from the horse.

More important than the application of pressure is the release from it. For a horse to be encouraged to offer a response, without resisting, each time he feels the application of pressure, he must learn that his response will be met immediately with release of the pressure. Even if his response is not that required by the trainer, the pressure must instantly be released as the horse's reaction is detected. This will decrease the likelihood of resistance.

Failure, on the part of the handler/trainer, to release pressure instantly, upon the horse's response, is the most damaging part of pressure halter use. In cases where the pressure has been too great, or prolonged after the point where it should have been released, horse can become very reactive to any pressure applied thereafter. This is why some people claim that their horses are 'claustrophobic' and dangerous when handled in a pressure halter.

Horses which have been correctly introduced to pressure from a halter, and who have experienced timely release from that pressure when they have offered a response, even if it was not the response required by the handler/trainer, are willing to try, do not offer violent resistance, and, given a fair opportunity, will become compliant and reliable.

On the original subject of circus tricks...I don't see the point of asking a horse to stand on a pedestal. 

It's unfortunate that these demonstrations/clinics, with their necessary time restraints, are sometimes the first, and only, experience of Natural Horsemanship for some people. The gurus who make these DVDs, such as 'The Road to the Horse' are working against the clock, and have to put immense pressure on these horses to get results in the short times allocated.

Much more can be achieved in the more appropriate surroundings of the quiet yard or field, by a compassionate trainer and a trustful horse, where time can be spent allowing the horse to learn what is required of him through the use of gentle pressure and timely release.


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## Kelly Marks (14 June 2011)

"The stories of him being beaten by his father, how he went out into the wilds and brought back herds of wild horses are a load of bull. His father had a reputation for being a very kind man with horses he worked with".

So Monty Roberts had this very kind father and one day thought 'I know I'll pretend he beat me up because it will make this book I'm writing sell".  Hmmm...

I've met two people who saw MRs father around horses and both said he was extremely 'tough' around them.  Only the child knows the truth about their own childhood.  Mostly you're better off keeping quiet about things that happen - people who 'break rank' are given a really tough time - and this is a case in point.

Of course it was more 'normal' to beat children in those days - and as one of his uncle's said 'of course he hit him - but not hard enough'.

All we can hope is the world is getting kinder and more understanding.


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## Foxhunter49 (14 June 2011)

IHK said:



			"The stories of him being beaten by his father, how he went out into the wilds and brought back herds of wild horses are a load of bull. His father had a reputation for being a very kind man with horses he worked with".

So Monty Roberts had this very kind father and one day thought 'I know I'll pretend he beat me up because it will make this book I'm writing sell".  Hmmm...

I've met two people who saw MRs father around horses and both said he was extremely 'tough' around them.  Only the child knows the truth about their own childhood.  Mostly you're better off keeping quiet about things that happen - people who 'break rank' are given a really tough time - and this is a case in point.

Of course it was more 'normal' to beat children in those days - and as one of his uncle's said 'of course he hit him - but not hard enough'.

All we can hope is the world is getting kinder and more understanding.
		
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So, how come he was able to go out into the wild and bring back herds of wild horses across two states? Absolutely impossible with the way traffic had increased and in the time he had.
Secondly, in his first book published in the UK names of the lads who went with him changed to the one printed in the USA.

As I said, I saw him when he first came over and in more recent years and the tales have become exaggerated more and more.


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## amandap (14 June 2011)

MRoberts... secrets and lies debate creeping in again.  

Tbh to me that debate is a waste of time and in no way discredits what I have learned and taken from his methods in my head. Some tell me or imply I am cruel and mindless/brainwashed for using what he teaches about body language, positioning when working a horse etc. etc. Fair enough. I take what I find works and what makes sense to me and I don't care where I learn it. Nor am I going to refuse to use what I've learned or deny I do because someone says that person is a liar etc. I am able to make my own mind up and be responsible for my actions. Being old and crumbly I have learned it's all too easy to blame others for your own actions and decisions and this is too often a cop out for horsepeople these days. Blame the trainer or the horse but I say, blame yourself first if you really do have to 'blame' anyone.


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## ApacheWarrior (14 June 2011)

Parelli ruined my first few weeks with my new horse.....now I have ditched the carrot stick,  life is a lot more pleasant for both of us.


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## ben1 (15 July 2011)

www.robertleese.com

video on you tube


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## jeeve (16 July 2011)

If you are happy with what you are achieving with your horse, that is great.

If you want to establish a bond with your horse, (think The Black Stallion on the beach scenes), if you have an issue you do not have the experience to deal with, and do not have resources around you, then before you sell or PTS that horse, NH/IH is a viable alternative.

I have seen some amazing things, unfortunately mostly achieved by those around me, but I also have become adept at teaching horse to float load through NH principles. The last 4 years I have done very little with my horses, the kids have kept them ticking over. But after 2 years of not riding or handling my ISH, I was able to start almost where we left off (excluding fitness ). He remembered everything, and did what ever I asked. I cannot fault the education my horses have had through NH principles.


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## team barney (16 July 2011)

Every horse I have re-started has remembered it's training.  Any difficulties I have encountered have been difficulties that displayed themselves before the time off.  Most of those horses were trained with traditional methods.  The only hugely problematic horse I ever re-backed was natural horsemanship trained from the start.

I admit there are many problem horses that have been traditionally trained, but in my experience they tend to be far easier to fix as they haven't had their natural instincts bullied out of them and they still behave like the prey animals they are meant to be.  Most NH trained horses on the other hand tend to be so de-sensitesed to their own natures that they don't even know how to behave like horses, and once the constant implied threat has retreated they act with the same dominance that they have been dealt.

I don't use force, tools or gadgets, therefore I don't prescribe to either natural or traditional horsemanship.  From a lifetime in the equine world I have found the "natural horsemen" are often far more reliant on their gadgets than a "traditional horseman" is.  Wether they use carrot sticks and/or pain inflicting halters, there is always some gadget to coerce the horse along.  Most traditional horseman however could get along just fine with a plain old headcollar, leadrope and a little bit of patience something rarely displayed by the advocates and practitioners of Natural horsemanship, unfortunately that world is full to bursting with equine bully boys.

Horse's are not thick animals they remember what has happened to them, that is why so many have trouble with seemingly innocuous items/routines.  People are far too ready too presume a horse has forgotten all it's past experiences and that is where many troubles start.


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## Tinypony (16 July 2011)

Team Barney, I agree with some things you post, but feel from a lot of what you say that your knowledge of the "nh" trainers is confined mainly to Parelli.  NH is a lot wider than Parelli, and very varied, and I strongly feel that it is wrong to claim that most horses trained that way are lie this:

"Most NH trained horses on the other hand tend to be so de-sensitesed to their own natures that they don't even know how to behave like horses, and once the constant implied threat has retreated they act with the same dominance that they have been dealt."

So if I'm right, wouldn't it be fairer to say Parelli if that's what you're talking about?  Just for example, I would say that I am an nh trainer in my small way, and what you've said there couldn't be further from the truth with my horses, who you are welcome to meet if you're ever in Kent by the way.  )

p.s.  Looks like Ben1 has searched the forum for old threads to use as an advertising opportunity.


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## tazzle (16 July 2011)

Most traditional horseman however could get along just fine with a plain old headcollar, leadrope and a little bit of patience something rarely displayed by the advocates and practitioners of Natural horsemanship, unfortunately that world is full to bursting with equine bully boys
		
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.

along with agreeing with tinyponys comments I would disagree most strongly with the above statement

given the plethora of flash nosebands, martingales etc ....the common use of whips as "reminders" and even  the mandatory carrying of a crop by pony club _children_ I would think that you could perhaps rethink your statement


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## scarymare (16 July 2011)

Agree with Team Barney

Horses remember everything that happens to them and seemingly insignificant events have lifelong consequences.  Also I think people over-rate their own experience and try things they shouldn't.  I thought I was pretty knowledgable cos I evented and had horses for 20 years.  LOL, its only now when I am breeding and starting youngsters that I'm starting to learn.  

One thing for sure though - some horses are born more fearful than others - period and thus obviously will need different handling - one size does not fit all here.


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## team barney (16 July 2011)

Tinypony said:



			Team Barney, I agree with some things you post, but feel from a lot of what you say that your knowledge of the "nh" trainers is confined mainly to Parelli.  NH is a lot wider than Parelli, and very varied, and I strongly feel that it is wrong to claim that most horses trained that way are lie this:

"Most NH trained horses on the other hand tend to be so de-sensitesed to their own natures that they don't even know how to behave like horses, and once the constant implied threat has retreated they act with the same dominance that they have been dealt."

So if I'm right, wouldn't it be fairer to say Parelli if that's what you're talking about?  Just for example, I would say that I am an nh trainer in my small way, and what you've said there couldn't be further from the truth with my horses, who you are welcome to meet if you're ever in Kent by the way.  )

p.s.  Looks like Ben1 has searched the forum for old threads to use as an advertising opportunity.
		
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Parelli is the worst of the lot but unfortunately that style of training doesn't end with them.  There are aspects of many of the big names regimes that are despicable in my opinion and if carried out by a "traditional" trainer would be vilified no end.

I did say "most" NH trained horses, I know that not all of them are like it, my horses certainly aren't shut down and most people consider me to be natural, I just don't like the label due to it's close association with the bully boy tactics of many well known trainers that are out there. 

I tend to be of the belief that anything can be achieved with patience and kindness I would never even dream of strapping my horses up to their eyeballs and intimidating them with any kind of violence it just isn't my way. When teaching my own or anyone elses horses I don't offer them aggression anymore than I'd resort to aggression with a human child who didn't understand me, I just work with them until I find a way to quietly offer my perspective on the situation.


p.s Yes I agree Ben1's post does seem rather random to say the least!


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## team barney (16 July 2011)

tazzle said:



			.

along with agreeing with tinyponys comments I would disagree most strongly with the above statement

given the plethora of flash nosebands, martingales etc ....the common use of whips as "reminders" and even  the mandatory carrying of a crop by pony club _children_ I would think that you could perhaps rethink your statement 

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Could, unfortunately many have lost the patience to actually do it!  

I am with you on the whip issue, I hate seeing anyone carry a whip/stick/crop/whipwop/carrot stick what ever you want to call it, there is no need, any horse will work of the leg with a little amount of schooling and you don't need to resort to hitting it along.  
children in spurs is another hate of mine, especially what half of them are incapable of keeping their legs still in walk!


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## team barney (16 July 2011)

scarymare said:



			One thing for sure though - some horses are born more fearful than others - period and thus obviously will need different handling - one size does not fit all here.
		
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It always amazes me how bold some foals are born, and how timid others, I have always preferred working with the nervous ones, I find it incredibly rewarding and they suit my personality better.  Friends of mine however favour the bold foals and get on best with the more naturally outgoing youngsters. Different strokes for different folks


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## jinglejoys (16 July 2011)

When this sort of thing is sold on the market to children as normal I think it says it all!


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## amandap (16 July 2011)

Tinypony said:



			p.s.  Looks like Ben1 has searched the forum for old threads to use as an advertising opportunity.
		
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LOL and most unfortunate given that unshod/barefoot is doing the rounds once again.

I sometimes think having a supposedly more precise language aka speech and written word is far more confusing and cause of problems than just good old body language.


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## tazzle (16 July 2011)

I am with you on the whip issue, I hate seeing anyone carry a whip/stick/crop/whipwop/carrot stick what ever you want to call it, there is no need, any horse will work of the leg with a little amount of schooling and you don't need to resort to hitting it along. 
children in spurs is another hate of mine, especially what half of them are incapable of keeping their legs still in walk!
		
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well I am not against their ownership or use entirely .....after all I do own a few   ........ it it after all only a tool and its how it is used  not the article itself .

my first task was to reassure Taz that she did not need to shake evey time she saw someone with a long thin thing in their hand ( even people with walking sticks) , she was not going to be beaten !!!!  It eventually  bacame instead her friend... giving her scratchies / rubs 

then because oother people carry them and waggle them she had to learn that waggling  / waving was ok too.

then we wanted to drive so one was uselful for asking her body to move over ( rein variation is nil  and replaces the leg  of a rider . and is handy to aid signalling other road users especially with high viz flag on it !!!


as per my signaure pic below the carrot stick is very handy for my disabled friend with little use of right arm, it becomes an extention to enable him to cue Taz   


anyone who cant control their leg should not have spurs, child or not !


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## georgie0 (16 July 2011)

Personally i avoid NH like the plague.  All the horses i own are happy, secure and i can do anything with them.  They all have manners and respect for people handling them and if they break the rules they get disipline, which will be short and sharp and never with a loss of temper.  Having worked on a huge variety of yards i have seen endless NH horses without any respect for people and who are confused and yes, never ridden!  Not for me.


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## tazzle (16 July 2011)

Having worked on a huge variety of yards i have seen endless NH horses without any respect for people and who are confused and yes, never ridden! Not for me.
		
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no doubt there are some ....

but I can say the reverse..... my CT/ NH horse does riding and driving as well as working with special people who have multiple disabilities ..... and there are plenty traditionally trained horses I would not trust an inch because of their current behaviour never mind ride.

 One cannot make blanket judgements about any "method" just because some practitioners of it cannot produce a well mannered horse that can function in the environement its in.  

if one came on here and used the posts here as a judgment of "traditional training" then it would appear to produce horses that rear, jog, back into ditches, refuse jumps, bolt, are too strong for their riders and often cant be led to / from their fields.

Now I *know* that is patently untrue... my friend is as BHS / trad as they get and we hack out together ........... happily and safely  .I respect that she has produced good horses and she respects that I do too.


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## georgie0 (16 July 2011)

Yep agree that judging all by one is not the way forward, but unfortunatley i have seen far too much of one type of evidence of one thing and not enough of another.  I stand by my views; what i'm doing works for mine.  I have a previously 'tricky' hunter (note the 'previously'), a yearling ISH and a 4 year old welsh cob.  Both babies are well rounded secure individuals and the 4 year old will be backed in september when i'm not pregnant anymore!  He was a terror before i bought him.  As a 2 year old he was heading down a very bad road, thankfully he had responsible owners who also happen to be friends who weren't prepared to send him off to god knows where, as his future was so doubtful.  Now he is a joy and will go down the road all my babies do; calm constant handling and groundwork and a seasons hunting!  Which is, of course the basis for alot of NH.  I have no problems with the outlook or the foundations it is based on, what i think i truly object to is the fact it is simply good horsemanship that has been carried out for centuries, now practiced by people who lok down their noses at 'traditional' methods when thats all NH is.  It isn't  new - fangled and ground breaking.  If it works for you - fantastic.  Just not for me.


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## Pale Rider (17 July 2011)

georgie0 said:



			Yep agree that judging all by one is not the way forward, but unfortunatley i have seen far too much of one type of evidence of one thing and not enough of another.  I stand by my views; what i'm doing works for mine.  I have a previously 'tricky' hunter (note the 'previously'), a yearling ISH and a 4 year old welsh cob.  Both babies are well rounded secure individuals and the 4 year old will be backed in september when i'm not pregnant anymore!  He was a terror before i bought him.  As a 2 year old he was heading down a very bad road, thankfully he had responsible owners who also happen to be friends who weren't prepared to send him off to god knows where, as his future was so doubtful.  Now he is a joy and will go down the road all my babies do; calm constant handling and groundwork and a seasons hunting!  Which is, of course the basis for alot of NH.  I have no problems with the outlook or the foundations it is based on, what i think i truly object to is the fact it is simply good horsemanship that has been carried out for centuries, now practiced by people who lok down their noses at 'traditional' methods when thats all NH is.  It isn't  new - fangled and ground breaking.  If it works for you - fantastic.  Just not for me.
		
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From your post, I get the impression that a lot of what you do with your horses would be classed as NH, whether or not you would be comfortable to be called a Natural Horseperson is really neither here nor there. The really daft thing is that what is now called 'traditional' are fairly modern concepts in the scheme of things and the recent upsurge of NH are really very very old methods. 

My problem with 'traditional' horsemanship, is the rush everyone is in to get backed and bitted and then of to some event or other.

Personally I am really happy with Natural Horsemanship as it's called and I am overjoyed to see the year on year uptake of the methods, and I suppose just like anything people will have their favourites amongst the trainers.

H&H forum has for quite some time seen some rabid attacks on people like Parelli, who have done the most I suppose to really push NH, but now I feel, from the support NH gets on the forum and the number of people, who will not put their head over the parapet in public support, but who privately mail in support tends to indicate that even on this forum, the anti's are losing ground.

In the real world, where friends and neighbours see the results of NH training methods, it has been interesting to see how many gradually have become more open minded, and want to give it a go. The ones who give up on it, in my experience were pretty crap at the 'traditional' way as well, so no great loss there.

The wealth of material on the web and available in DVD's as well as the ever increasing number of trainers getting qualified to teach NH has in the past few years seen a massive uptake of NH methods, which I feel is excellent for horses. It highlights the lack of information available in the past, which amounted to books and a lesson or two at the local yard for a lot of folk.

The expansion of NH methods at such a rate over the past 25 yrs or so begs the question of where will we be in another 10 or 15 yrs. The more people who have the opportunity to get the information, the better.


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## tess1 (17 July 2011)

woah, sorry ... fair few sweeping statements in there - but this one took my breath away ...

My problem with 'traditional' horsemanship, is the rush everyone is in to get backed and bitted and then of to some event or other.

Now that is ironic, when we have Monty Roberts boasting that he can get first saddle and rider on a horse in half an hour, and there are these ridiculous colt starting competitions which put young horses under huge amounts of pressure to boost the egos of the so called NH types.

Personally, I've met an awful lot of 'traditional' people who are bloody good with horses, they "take the time it takes", use common sense, don't need round pens and pressure halters to get results and can produce nice horses and teach people good horse sense without feeling the urge to give themselves a whole pile of fancy blurb, invent new terms for what they are doing and need a large marketing budget.

In fact, your whole post reads like an ad for NH, if you're not in marketing you should consider it as a second career option!


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## horseless jorge! (17 July 2011)

I despise Natural Horsemanship in the form of Parelli. THAT is all about circus tricks.

However, Natural Horsemanship in the form of Monty Roberts and his lot, I strongly support. They are all about a horse being a horse, and doing horsey things. They don't try and baby horses, they don't try and turn them into people. They understand that sometimes, horses get scared and they need a leader, they need time and patience.


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## Pale Rider (17 July 2011)

horseless jorge! said:



			I despise Natural Horsemanship in the form of Parelli. THAT is all about circus tricks.

However, Natural Horsemanship in the form of Monty Roberts and his lot, I strongly support. They are all about a horse being a horse, and doing horsey things. They don't try and baby horses, they don't try and turn them into people. They understand that sometimes, horses get scared and they need a leader, they need time and patience.
		
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Thats worth 24 pages on it's own, lol.


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## siennamum (17 July 2011)

Pale Rider said:



			From your post, I get the impression that a lot of what you do with your horses would be classed as NH, whether or not you would be comfortable to be called a Natural Horseperson is really neither here nor there. The really daft thing is that what is now called 'traditional' are fairly modern concepts in the scheme of things and the recent upsurge of NH are really very very old methods. 

My problem with 'traditional' horsemanship, is the rush everyone is in to get backed and bitted and then of to some event or other.

Personally I am really happy with Natural Horsemanship as it's called and I am overjoyed to see the year on year uptake of the methods, and I suppose just like anything people will have their favourites amongst the trainers.

H&H forum has for quite some time seen some rabid attacks on people like Parelli, who have done the most I suppose to really push NH, but now I feel, from the support NH gets on the forum and the number of people, who will not put their head over the parapet in public support, but who privately mail in support tends to indicate that even on this forum, the anti's are losing ground.

In the real world, where friends and neighbours see the results of NH training methods, it has been interesting to see how many gradually have become more open minded, and want to give it a go. The ones who give up on it, in my experience were pretty crap at the 'traditional' way as well, so no great loss there.

The wealth of material on the web and available in DVD's as well as the ever increasing number of trainers getting qualified to teach NH has in the past few years seen a massive uptake of NH methods, which I feel is excellent for horses. It highlights the lack of information available in the past, which amounted to books and a lesson or two at the local yard for a lot of folk.

The expansion of NH methods at such a rate over the past 25 yrs or so begs the question of where will we be in another 10 or 15 yrs. The more people who have the opportunity to get the information, the better.
		
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I don't really understand much of what you are trying to say, it seems very muddled.

For instance. The traditional way of backing and breaking would be to have a young horse ridden away for a few months following backing and breaking. It may involve the youngster going cubbing quite quickly to ensure it is forwards. Not sure where your comment about traditional resulting in horses going straight to events comes from.


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## Denzalwood (17 July 2011)

This is a serious can of worms for sure 

My wife and myself have 15 horses atm and the way we are with them is as follows.

We treat then like horses, we act like horses with them, we dont expect them to be people, we use common sense and always take into account how our actions will affect the horse, we enter into their world, the likes of Parelli and Monty Roberts are well and good but tbh most of it is just common sense packaged up very well for public sale. We understand you get more from a horse that loves you than from a horse that fears you, we have a saying at our yard, when our horses see us we aim for them to think "only good things will happen now" 

On a related note.

We had a girl come to us for work experience who was at Uni studying Equine Science, a very famous Equine Whisperer visited her yard, he claimed "never to have seen this horse before" then promptly fixed it, twas true he hadn't ever seen it before, but the team of guys he sent several days before his visit to assess possible horse projects had, Sceptical? who me?


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## pipsqueek (17 July 2011)

No I would not say its just an act, it just depends on who is practising it!!  All I can say is that my youngster wouldnt go near my horsebox and a couple of sessions of 'natural horsemanship' with Jonathan Browne and she walks on like a lamb!  (can't say im too keen on those Parelli displays tho, it seems to be making it into a circus act..)


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## georgie0 (17 July 2011)

Pale Rider said:



			My problem with 'traditional' horsemanship, is the rush everyone is in to get backed and bitted and then of to some event or other.
		
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Erm... i would say i'm as traditional as they come and i don't rush any youngster!  My welshie is 4 and isn't backed yet as he wasn't ready.  I have spent 2 years teaching him to long rein etc and he will progress at HIS speed.  He will def hunt this season as i think it is invaluble to a youngster.  The way i do things has been gleaned over many years from very experienced 'traditional' people!


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## team barney (17 July 2011)

Regarding the traditional trait of rushing horses... 

Parelli among others took part in a colt starting competition riding 2 year olds.

Parelli and other NH practitioners also took part in a competition this year for backing untouched 3 year olds in a few short hours.

Most traditional horseman wouldn't dream of starting a 2 year old under saddle.  Neither would they dream of starting an untouched 3 year old in 3 hours in front of a huge crowd.


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## leogeorge (17 July 2011)

Neither would a traditional trainer include a buckstopper in the list of equipment needed for basic backing and starting as Monty did when he took part in a "science" trial to prove his methods were the "kindest"


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## jeeve (18 July 2011)

team barney said:



			Every horse I have re-started has remembered it's training.  Any difficulties I have encountered have been difficulties that displayed themselves before the time off.  Most of those horses were trained with traditional methods.  The only hugely problematic horse I ever re-backed was natural horsemanship trained from the start.
		
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I guess that you would expect this, however, a lot of the work I was doing on the ground was at liberty. And to be able to basically pick up where we left off there was a great feeling. No ropes or leads, just responding to my body language.


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## Pale Rider (18 July 2011)

siennamum said:



			I don't really understand much of what you are trying to say, it seems very muddled.

For instance. The traditional way of backing and breaking would be to have a young horse ridden away for a few months following backing and breaking. It may involve the youngster going cubbing quite quickly to ensure it is forwards. Not sure where your comment about traditional resulting in horses going straight to events comes from.
		
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I'll try to explain what I mean. I am not saying that young horses should not be touched after they have been backed, if cubbing is what you do to give them 'experience' fair enough.

I don't think, in general, people put enough foundation into their horses. For example there was a post yesterday, about someone going to an 'event' and when umbarellas were put up because of the rain, a lot of the horses freaked out. The OP said fortunately most of the riders were 'good' enough to stay on. My point here is that these horses should not be at an 'event' until they were sound enough not to freak out at mundane things like umbarellas.

These horses cannot be ready to compete if they are as poorly prepaired as that, and as most people who compete, at the moment, are what you would call traditional, the fault must lie here.


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## Pale Rider (18 July 2011)

team barney said:



			Regarding the traditional trait of rushing horses... 

Parelli among others took part in a colt starting competition riding 2 year olds.

Parelli and other NH practitioners also took part in a competition this year for backing untouched 3 year olds in a few short hours.

Most traditional horseman wouldn't dream of starting a 2 year old under saddle.  Neither would they dream of starting an untouched 3 year old in 3 hours in front of a huge crowd.
		
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I think that the most traditional of horsemen think it's ok to race 2yr olds.

Whether or not a horse is started in front of a crowd, isn't really an issue. The horses I saw didn't seem too bothered, either at the 'Road to the Horse' or at the Parelli colt start.


It's quite a skill to take an untouched horse and have it tacked, backed and peacefully riding in the way it was done in a few short hours over a couple of days.

I see the updates that are posted on Parelli's horse Troubadour, which he bought, and things seem to be progressing nicely.


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## Morgan123 (18 July 2011)

Pale Rider said:



			Whether or not a horse is started in front of a crowd, isn't really an issue. The horses I saw didn't seem too bothered, either at the 'Road to the Horse' or at the Parelli colt start.


It's quite a skill to take an untouched horse and have it tacked, backed and peacefully riding in the way it was done in a few short hours over a couple of days.
		
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Pale Rider - this makes no sense, on page 24 you are saying that it's Traditional Horsemanship that is in too much rush and that is what the problem is with it?! so if Traditional people do it it's wrong but if 'NH' people do it it's 'quite a skill'??

I can't see the merit at all in backing a horse from scratch  in an hour, 24 hours etc - when you have time, why not take it?!


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## Pale Rider (18 July 2011)

Morgan123 said:



			Pale Rider - this makes no sense, on page 24 you are saying that it's Traditional Horsemanship that is in too much rush and that is what the problem is with it?! so if Traditional people do it it's wrong but if 'NH' people do it it's 'quite a skill'??

I can't see the merit at all in backing a horse from scratch  in an hour, 24 hours etc - when you have time, why not take it?!
		
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This is what I said, 'My problem with 'traditional' horsemanship, is the rush everyone is in to get backed and bitted and then of to some event or other.'

Perhaps I should have said, people who use traditional horsemanship methods are in too much of a rush.

I see nothing wrong with people wanting to use traditional methods to back horses, personally I prefer NH methods.

Where I refer to people being in a rush, what I am talking about is the number who want to compete at whatever event, and turn up at places with horses which are obviously not prepaired. What is the sense in going places with a horse which won't load for example.

As far as the actual backing goes, I agree with the principle of taking the time it takes. What is going on at the Road to the Horse is trainers at a high level reading an untouched horse and demonstrating how efficiently they can get it backed and riding. The Parelli colt start was very interesting and watching people like James Roberts and Kalley Krickeberg handling young horses was fantastic. This however, is just the start of the program for these horses and the idea is then putting a good foundation on them where they can load, be trusted not to freak out at mundane things, all the day to day stuff that fill these posts over and over, before they go jumping or dressage or showing or whatever.

I referred to traditional methods because that is the predominant system being used here, I suppose it's not so much the method as the way people use it.


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## team barney (18 July 2011)

Pale Rider said:



			I think that the most traditional of horsemen think it's ok to race 2yr olds.
		
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The racing argument is null and void, people in the racing industry are not traditional horsemen, they are business men (no offence to any race trains, grooms ect.).  Racing is about getting a horse on the track and winning races, not training it to a high standard and style, it is purely based on speed.  Due to the monies involved and the owners behind that money, racehorses (flat racers I should add) are started young, as the are retired young, racing isn't about a long career it is about a fruitful one.  And for the record I don't think they should be racing as two year olds.  However you seem to think Pat Parelli was justified in riding an untouched two year old after 2.5 hours training, in the end those babies had to display themselves in front of a huge crowd in sweltering heats.  Not only did the have to walk trot and canter, the had to negotiate objects and drag a bale of hay!  You only have to look at the pictures to see how exhausted the youngsters are.  Parelli is a large heavy man, sitting on a two year old is cruelty.  But Parelli has no respect for horses backs as you can from the "funny clip" at 37 sec in to this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2RRH9KKPjs


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## Pale Rider (18 July 2011)

team barney said:



			The racing argument is null and void, people in the racing industry are not traditional horsemen, they are business men (no offence to any race trains, grooms ect.).  Racing is about getting a horse on the track and winning races, not training it to a high standard and style, it is purely based on speed.  Due to the monies involved and the owners behind that money, racehorses (flat racers I should add) are started young, as the are retired young, racing isn't about a long career it is about a fruitful one.  And for the record I don't think they should be racing as two year olds.  However you seem to think Pat Parelli was justified in riding an untouched two year old after 2.5 hours training, in the end those babies had to display themselves in front of a huge crowd in sweltering heats.  Not only did the have to walk trot and canter, the had to negotiate objects and drag a bale of hay!  You only have to look at the pictures to see how exhausted the youngsters are.  Parelli is a large heavy man, sitting on a two year old is cruelty.  But Parelli has no respect for horses backs as you can from the "funny clip" at 37 sec in to this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2RRH9KKPjs

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TB, you cannot just discount a whole industry and say it doesn't count. Moving the goal posts happens a lot, but running off with them is not on.

Yes I've seen the clips you post, I've seen hundreds of hours of Pat and sometimes I think 'why do that' other times you see something fantastic.

I know you have a real problem with Parelli and all their works, and I now think, having read a lot of your posts that we will always be diametrically opposed in our views.

I know you will always be making allegations of abuse and cruelty and if that is what you feel, ok. I don't see things in the same way you do, and I honestly feel that there is a lot more behind your campaigns, for you to have these reactions.

Like it or not the NH movement worldwide is growing at a phenominal rate, spearheaded by Parelli to a large extent. There is now a lot of support here on the H&H forum, where there was very little not long ago.

Nothing is perfect but I really do think a lot of the criticism of NH and Parelli in particular is spurious. I will continue to support NH and Parelli as I believe that this will benefit horses, and thats what this is all about.


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## Morgan123 (18 July 2011)

Pale Rider said:



			I will continue to support NH and Parelli as I believe that this will benefit horses, and thats what this is all about.
		
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Im interested in this  could you explain WHY you think it will benefit horses. Why is it better than traditional stuff? How is it kinder? 
Heres a vastly simplified summation of the three major schools of thought:

Parellli  based on pressure and release (using various tools)
MR  based on pressure and release (body language, various tools)
Traditional  pressure and release (using body, various tools).

Its not the school of thought, its how you do it that makes the difference.

I have been through tonnes of the literature and demos and everything and there are major flaws with all of them in my view  you just have to treat your own horse kindly and clearly and thats all there is to it really, in my opinion.


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## talkinghorse (18 July 2011)

Natural horsemanship and circus act contradict one another. Natural horsemanship can only be achieved when you have a few thousand acres of undisturbed countryside and turn your horses out there with everything that they need to live a fit and healthy natural life. Anything else may seem 'natural' to man, but it isn't natural to the horse.

What I want for my horses is something that is first and foremost influenced by the horse's nature and needs but ultimately permits me to do some very unnatural things with them like sitting on their backs to go shopping.

In terms of acceptable training methods, I will not hit or unduly coerce a horse, so Clinton Anderson, JeanFrançois Pignon and Pat Parelli are out and Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling, Steve Halfpenny and Monty Roberts are in. It's nothing to do with what's natural, it's to do taking violence out of working with your horse.


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## Tinypony (18 July 2011)

Isn't it always going to be an issue though that one person's view of unduly coercing a horse will be absolutely fine for someone else?
I wince at the way some people deal with horses in fairly simple situations, such as maybe twitching just to clip, or walloping and shouting when they think a horse is being "rude".  However, others will think I am too coercive because I will use a rope halter, and will flick a bit of my horse with the end of my rope (I use the word flick advisedly there, I don't mean a "phase 4" contact).  Even people who use methods that are thought to really lack coercion, like clicker trainers, will disagree.  For some anything other than working at liberty is coercion, whereas others are fine to have a halter or headcollar and rope and thefore restrict and guide  the horse's options a bit.
So, whichever trainer you say you like, someone else will leap in and go off on one saying they disagree and that that trainer is coercive or maybe even abusive.  
I think all we can do is set our own limits and make our personal decision about what sits right with us.  Then work with trainers who enhance that.  Also be prepared to agree to disagree, even with our trainers.  I disagree with a couple of things that my main trainer is OK with, but that doesn't mean I dismiss everything he does.  Babies and bathwater come to mind.


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## Pale Rider (18 July 2011)

Morgan123 said:



			Im interested in this  could you explain WHY you think it will benefit horses. Why is it better than traditional stuff? How is it kinder? 
Heres a vastly simplified summation of the three major schools of thought:

Parellli  based on pressure and release (using various tools)
MR  based on pressure and release (body language, various tools)
Traditional  pressure and release (using body, various tools).

Its not the school of thought, its how you do it that makes the difference.

I have been through tonnes of the literature and demos and everything and there are major flaws with all of them in my view  you just have to treat your own horse kindly and clearly and thats all there is to it really, in my opinion.
		
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I think that your simplified summation is vastly flawed, when you have found a method thats flawless, let me know. What you have said here is probably about right, ''you just have to treat your own horse kindly and clearly and thats all there is to it really, in my opinion.''


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## Tinypony (18 July 2011)

I could set us off on a whole new tangent thinking about that last statement.  How many horses and ponies get totally stuffed up by well-meaning owners who think they are treating them kindly?  And, thinking about it a bit more, how often can you sit on the sidelines watching someone dealing with a horse, when they think they are being clear, but from a distance it's easy to see they are confusing the heck out of the horse?  An easy example of that for me would be the aimless and confused lunging that so many horses patiently learn to deal with.  Constant "voice commands" that are thrown out in between pointless ramblings that must sound like white noise to the horse... lack of clear direction in body language and pointing of the whip, and yet, somehow, the horses manage to hurtle round in circles changing gait and halting roughly when required.


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## GingerCat (18 July 2011)

PiebaldPeril said:



			Unfortunately "natural horsemanship" often carries with it a "tag" of being weird and wonderful,
		
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And a price tag too ...why are all things to do with NH so expensive...DVD's, halters, long lines etc. etc.

Nothing new about NH, it used to be called Common sense and Empathy.


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## Pale Rider (18 July 2011)

talkinghorse said:



			Natural horsemanship and circus act contradict one another. Natural horsemanship can only be achieved when you have a few thousand acres of undisturbed countryside and turn your horses out there with everything that they need to live a fit and healthy natural life. Anything else may seem 'natural' to man, but it isn't natural to the horse.

What I want for my horses is something that is first and foremost influenced by the horse's nature and needs but ultimately permits me to do some very unnatural things with them like sitting on their backs to go shopping.

In terms of acceptable training methods, I will not hit or unduly coerce a horse, so Clinton Anderson, JeanFrançois Pignon and Pat Parelli are out and Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling, Steve Halfpenny and Monty Roberts are in. It's nothing to do with what's natural, it's to do taking violence out of working with your horse.
		
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When people think of natural horsemanship that could mean a lot of things. It isn't natural for a horse to be around people, and it's not natural for a person to be sitting on him either. When we use these words we speak about what's natural for the horse to do within his own boundaries" - Bill Dorrance


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## Tinypony (18 July 2011)

I've got another one, that I've learnt through experience.  Take circling - as in nh-type training.  In Parelli we "lift it, lead it, send it..." - so we lift the rope and put a feel on the horse's head (ie give direction for the horse to come towards us).  Then if the horse doesn't go out and on the circle, we send it, with direction from the stick and string, or maybe a tap or swish of the string on the shoulder.  Horse then circles round, head on outside, rope tight, and we then balance them to try to get them to soften and get the rope slack by bumping on the head and maybe pushing in the direction of chest and rump.
Or, you could have a rule that you will never put a pull on the rope, so when you send the horse away you need to do it without pulling or putting any pressure on the rope at all.  Using what your horse has already been taught, you could step the horse out sideways away from you, "push" the shoulder away, then put some "pressure" behind to ask for forwards.  In doing this you have already set the horse up to be softer around you, and with the head tipped to the inside of the circle, because you haven't sent the head away.  I know which seems clearer to me.  
A friend of mine who posts here came up with an interesting test of how you can check how much you and your horse rely on the rope (this would be useful maybe before moving to liberty).  She tucked the rope loosely in her belt and then found out how it all worked.  Oh, before anyone asks, what is the point of that?  The principle of no pull from the person and no pull or lean from the horse is that it extends to ridden work.  It's the foundation for having a horse that is light on your hands and has good self carriage.


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## Pale Rider (18 July 2011)

Tinypony said:



			I could set us off on a whole new tangent thinking about that last statement.  How many horses and ponies get totally stuffed up by well-meaning owners who think they are treating them kindly?  And, thinking about it a bit more, how often can you sit on the sidelines watching someone dealing with a horse, when they think they are being clear, but from a distance it's easy to see they are confusing the heck out of the horse?  An easy example of that for me would be the aimless and confused lunging that so many horses patiently learn to deal with.  Constant "voice commands" that are thrown out in between pointless ramblings that must sound like white noise to the horse... lack of clear direction in body language and pointing of the whip, and yet, somehow, the horses manage to hurtle round in circles changing gait and halting roughly when required.
		
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I was trying to be nice. lol.


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## Tinypony (18 July 2011)

GingerCat said:



			Nothing new about NH, it used to be called Common sense and Empathy.
		
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I disagree.  Common sense and empathy are essential in a good horseman, but they are used alongside an approach/method, call it what you will, to training.  The natural horsemen show us a style of training, BHS etc show us something a bit different.  As would say an Italian cowboy someone who trains bullfighting horses.  

Every time someone says "natural horsemanship is nothing new" I want to screech at the screen - no it isn't new and, the horsemen don't claim that it is.  They talk about their trainers and their roots.  Pat P says "this is so old it's new".  Bill Dorrance, Ray Hunt, Buck Brannaman - they all acknowledge their learning and the history behind what they do. (Maybe the exception to this is Monty Roberts, who claims to have invented Join Up by observing mustangs, but I'm not sure if he would consider himself in the nh camp or not).


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## Morgan123 (18 July 2011)

Pale Horse - you ignored my question? You said NH was kinder - can you explain in what way and why/how?

tinypony - agree with your posts, good point about it not just being 'doing what you think is right' - we all have a duty of care to learn and learn and reconsider all the time, I think.


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## Tinypony (18 July 2011)

From the age of 3 until my late teens I was steeped in the way that most riders in this country learn to deal with horses.  I rode conventionally, I added a stronger bit for control, I smacked and shouted when horses "took the piss".  I hung off heads and legs when horses were protesting about things.  This, let's be honest, is what we see and accept as normal on most livery yards.
I came back to horses after a break, started off down the same old route.  Then one memorable dressage lesson had me sat in a loo at an equestrian centre in tears because I'd suddenly had a crashing attack of doubt about what I was being taught to do to the horse to get the results that would win the ribbons.  I went to a Parelli Savvy Day (1998 I think) and as I walked in Pat Parelli said something that hit me to the core.  He said roughly something like this:  "Remember when you were a kid and you used to go down to the pasture to catch your pony, put the halter on his head, jump on and then gallop back to the yard without a care in the world?  Where have those days gone?"  I thought of the big dressage horse I'd been riding, in his double bridle, foaming at the mouth, me with two whips and biceps like Arnie and I never went back.  I didn't stay in the Parelli programme, but it was the start of a lot of learning about completely new ideas and approaches that still keep me fascinated.  
I think what I'm saying is that nh and other approaches to horsemanship offer us so many choices and opportunities to look at different ways of doing things with our horses, that MIGHT be an improvement on what we do now.  So it always makes me sad when people dismiss such a huge and varied philosphy as nh based on judgements made about the price of one programme, or a few horses they've seen that were badly trained.  I've got news, there are badly trained horses all over the country, 1,000's of them.  Not all of their owners wave orange sticks.  Not all of their owners ride either.
OK, ramble over... back to work. LOL!


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## Pale Rider (18 July 2011)

Morgan123 said:



			Pale Horse - you ignored my question? You said NH was kinder - can you explain in what way and why/how?

I have ignored your question, too many bear traps.

Find where I said 'kinder' and I'll put it in context.
		
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## Pale Rider (18 July 2011)

Tinypony said:



			Every time someone says "natural horsemanship is nothing new" I want to screech at the screen - no it isn't new and, the horsemen don't claim that it is.  They talk about their trainers and their roots.  Pat P says "this is so old it's new".  Bill Dorrance, Ray Hunt, Buck Brannaman - they all acknowledge their learning and the history behind what they do. (Maybe the exception to this is Monty Roberts, who claims to have invented Join Up by observing mustangs, but I'm not sure if he would consider himself in the nh camp or not).
		
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I was beginning to think I'd imagined this.


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## team barney (18 July 2011)

Pale Rider said:



			TB, you cannot just discount a whole industry and say it doesn't count. Moving the goal posts happens a lot, but running off with them is not on.

Yes I've seen the clips you post, I've seen hundreds of hours of Pat and sometimes I think 'why do that' other times you see something fantastic.

I know you have a real problem with Parelli and all their works, and I now think, having read a lot of your posts that we will always be diametrically opposed in our views.

I know you will always be making allegations of abuse and cruelty and if that is what you feel, ok. I don't see things in the same way you do, and I honestly feel that there is a lot more behind your campaigns, for you to have these reactions.

Like it or not the NH movement worldwide is growing at a phenominal rate, spearheaded by Parelli to a large extent. There is now a lot of support here on the H&H forum, where there was very little not long ago.

Nothing is perfect but I really do think a lot of the criticism of NH and Parelli in particular is spurious. I will continue to support NH and Parelli as I believe that this will benefit horses, and thats what this is all about.
		
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I have nothing against "Natural Horsemanship", I have nothing against "Traditional Horsemanship" I have everything against abuse.

I am forced to come to the conclusion that you find the repeatedly striking a half blind horse in the face fully justified.  And yes I have seen the entire footage and it was far more unpleasant than the cut down clip as the cruelty carried on much longer.  I guess you also find it fully justified to use "level 4" force on a horse that is walking with perfect manners but whose speed is slightly to fast. Many people have seen the unedited clip as it was posted on Youtube and watched many times before Parelli inc. had it removed.  

I have watched many of their DVD's shows etc. for my own education before coming to an informed opinion.  Any organisation that reverts to the "you don't understand" argument to quieten dissenters and justify their own actions (Barney, Catwalk etc.) is highly questionable.

There is nothing more to my hate of Parelli than an all round hate of every form of horse abuse.  I find the routine striking of any animal abhorrent and that is exactly what the Parelli program entails when you investigate it with your eyes open, not blinkered by marketing and prose.


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## Pale Rider (18 July 2011)

team barney said:



			I have nothing against "Natural Horsemanship", I have nothing against "Traditional Horsemanship" I have everything against abuse.

I am forced to come to the conclusion that you find the repeatedly striking a half blind horse in the face fully justified.  And yes I have seen the entire footage and it was far more unpleasant than the cut down clip as the cruelty carried on much longer.  I guess you also find it fully justified to use "level 4" force on a horse that is walking with perfect manners but whose speed is slightly to fast. Many people have seen the unedited clip as it was posted on Youtube and watched many times before Parelli inc. had it removed.  

I have watched many of their DVD's shows etc. for my own education before coming to an informed opinion.  Any organisation that reverts to the "you don't understand" argument to quieten dissenters and justify their own actions (Barney, Catwalk etc.)

There is nothing more to my hate of Parelli than an all round hate of every form of horse abuse.  I find the routine striking of any animal abhorrent and that is exactly what the Parelli program entails when you investigate it with your eyes open, not blinkered by marketing and prose.
		
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I said we wouldn't agree. lol.


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## Golf Girl (18 July 2011)

Tinypony said:



			From the age of 3 until my late teens I was steeped in the way that most riders in this country learn to deal with horses.  I rode conventionally, I added a stronger bit for control, I smacked and shouted when horses "took the piss".  I hung off heads and legs when horses were protesting about things.  This, let's be honest, is what we see and accept as normal on most livery yards.
I came back to horses after a break, started off down the same old route.  Then one memorable dressage lesson had me sat in a loo at an equestrian centre in tears because I'd suddenly had a crashing attack of doubt about what I was being taught to do to the horse to get the results that would win the ribbons.  I went to a Parelli Savvy Day (1998 I think) and as I walked in Pat Parelli said something that hit me to the core.  He said roughly something like this:  "Remember when you were a kid and you used to go down to the pasture to catch your pony, put the halter on his head, jump on and then gallop back to the yard without a care in the world?  Where have those days gone?"  I thought of the big dressage horse I'd been riding, in his double bridle, foaming at the mouth, me with two whips and biceps like Arnie and I never went back.  I didn't stay in the Parelli programme, but it was the start of a lot of learning about completely new ideas and approaches that still keep me fascinated.  
I think what I'm saying is that nh and other approaches to horsemanship offer us so many choices and opportunities to look at different ways of doing things with our horses, that MIGHT be an improvement on what we do now.  So it always makes me sad when people dismiss such a huge and varied philosphy as nh based on judgements made about the price of one programme, or a few horses they've seen that were badly trained.  I've got news, there are badly trained horses all over the country, 1,000's of them.  Not all of their owners wave orange sticks.  Not all of their owners ride either.
OK, ramble over... back to work. LOL!
		
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Excellent post Tinypony!


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## Morgan123 (18 July 2011)

Pale Rider said:





Morgan123 said:



			Pale Horse - you ignored my question? You said NH was kinder - can you explain in what way and why/how?

I have ignored your question, too many bear traps.

Find where I said 'kinder' and I'll put it in context.
		
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Sorry - you said: I will continue to support NH and Parelli as I believe that this will benefit horses, and thats what this is all about.

So for benefitting horses you must think it's "better" than Traditional methods. I just wondered why. As this question is surely at the crux of this discussion, i think it's a great shame to ignore it?! If you didn't mean 'kinder' what did you mean?
		
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## Tinypony (18 July 2011)

I thought she just meant it would benefit the horses Morgan123.


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## Golf Girl (18 July 2011)

team barney said:



			I have nothing against "Natural Horsemanship", I have nothing against "Traditional Horsemanship" I have everything against abuse.

I am forced to come to the conclusion that you find the repeatedly striking a half blind horse in the face fully justified.  And yes I have seen the entire footage and it was far more unpleasant than the cut down clip as the cruelty carried on much longer.  I guess you also find it fully justified to use "level 4" force on a horse that is walking with perfect manners but whose speed is slightly to fast. Many people have seen the unedited clip as it was posted on Youtube and watched many times before Parelli inc. had it removed.  

I have watched many of their DVD's shows etc. for my own education before coming to an informed opinion.  Any organisation that reverts to the "you don't understand" argument to quieten dissenters and justify their own actions (Barney, Catwalk etc.) is highly questionable.

There is nothing more to my hate of Parelli than an all round hate of every form of horse abuse.  I find the routine striking of any animal abhorrent and that is exactly what the Parelli program entails when you investigate it with your eyes open, not blinkered by marketing and prose.
		
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TB I find your posts very disturbing. The language that you use, in particular your frequent use of the word 'hate' is just .... not quite right. I often wonder who you are and exactly what your REAL agenda is?


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## team barney (18 July 2011)

Golf Girl said:



			TB I find your posts very disturbing. The language that you use, in particular your frequent use of the word 'hate' is just .... not quite right. I often wonder who you are and exactly what your REAL agenda is?
		
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I have no "agenda"

I don't understand why you find my posts disturbing, but then I find Parelli-ites rather disturbing so I guess we are all disturbed by different things.

As far as I am aware this is the first time I have ever used the word hate, I certainly don't use it frequently.  I do hate horse abuse though, doesn't everyone?

As for whom I am, I am a genuine horse lover.  I believes that horses deserve to be treated with consistency and kindness, and if people can't managed kindness they should at least offer consistency.  I am sure your opinions on the matter are very different but the Parelli program is far from consistent, even the carrot stick acts as a jekyll and hyde instrument.


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## Morgan123 (18 July 2011)

Tinypony said:



			I thought she just meant it would benefit the horses Morgan123.
		
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Yes but WHY - I'm interested in eactly WHY NH would be any more beneficial to a horse than traditional methods, when the basis of them all is same. They're all about pressure and release and they are all flawed in some places but good in others, and they are all dangerous in the wrong hands. Why is NH more beneficial?


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## amandap (18 July 2011)

Tinypony said:



			Isn't it always going to be an issue though that one person's view of unduly coercing a horse will be absolutely fine for someone else?
I wince at the way some people deal with horses in fairly simple situations, such as maybe twitching just to clip, or walloping and shouting when they think a horse is being "rude".  However, others will think I am too coercive because I will use a rope halter, and will flick a bit of my horse with the end of my rope (I use the word flick advisedly there, I don't mean a "phase 4" contact).  Even people who use methods that are thought to really lack coercion, like clicker trainers, will disagree.  For some anything other than working at liberty is coercion, whereas others are fine to have a halter or headcollar and rope and thefore restrict and guide  the horse's options a bit.
So, whichever trainer you say you like, someone else will leap in and go off on one saying they disagree and that that trainer is coercive or maybe even abusive.  
I think all we can do is set our own limits and make our personal decision about what sits right with us.  Then work with trainers who enhance that.  Also be prepared to agree to disagree, even with our trainers.  I disagree with a couple of things that my main trainer is OK with, but that doesn't mean I dismiss everything he does.  Babies and bathwater come to mind.
		
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Yes great post. Tinypony is talking a lot of sense in my eyes.


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## padderpaws (18 July 2011)

What is wrong with circus tricks anyway??? isn't jumping just taught tricks???? dressage is just tricks,  cross country, lots of trick jumps in that.  Some not very nice methods used in All forms of horse training especially English traditional.  I would say natural horsemanship is brilliant when done correctly.


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## Pale Rider (18 July 2011)

Morgan123 said:





Pale Rider said:



			Sorry - you said: I will continue to support NH and Parelli as I believe that this will benefit horses, and thats what this is all about.

So for benefitting horses you must think it's "better" than Traditional methods. I just wondered why. As this question is surely at the crux of this discussion, i think it's a great shame to ignore it?! If you didn't mean 'kinder' what did you mean?
		
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I believe that NH opens the door to a greater communication between horse and handler, much of what is perceived as bad behaviour by horses seems to be just a basic lack of communication and understanding. Using traditional methods I could get so far with horse training but there appeared to be a ceiling through which I couldn't get. Problems all seemed to result in another peice of tack or a different bit, most trainers were worse than useless, and got less out of my horses than I could. I started thrashing around doing my own thing, 'thinking outside the box' I suppose. When I got into NH in the mid 90's this ceiling disappeared the Dorrances, Ray Hunt and  Pat Parelli. Parelli was putting out a lot of information and it made sense to me and more importantly my horses.

Now I see no limits on what I can achieve with them, apart from my own physical limitations.(I'm knocking on a bit now). People who visit my yard see happy well balanced horses, all working at fairly high levels who appear to enjoy their life and relationships with each other and us.

I cannot go back to how things used to be, it would be like turning all the lights out. Thats why I honestly believe that NH and Parelli benefits horses. You cannot train a horse in NH and hand it over to someone else, they have to study it and understand it. When the handler understands  it is so much more beneficial for the horse.
		
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## Morgan123 (18 July 2011)

OK thanks for explaining that! I absolutely absolutely agree that watching, understanding and leanring from the individual horse is paramount and that not enough of this goes on. However I am not sure that's NH as such - I think that is just what should always be done, traditional stuff included. The bits of Parelli and MR etc etc that encourage this are of course beneficial, so there we go - some synergy 

However, in line with Tinypony's excellent comment about everyone seeing things differently re: pressure/what is and isn't on etc etc - I think that there's lots of stuff in both PArelli and MR that is completely coercive, so yes you may be looking at the horse's body language and so on but that doesn't mean you're then using it in a positive or 'kind' way or that it's any better. For example in join up - you're using the horse's body langauge and your own, to send it away and essentially telling it that it mustn't come back until it's going to play by your rules. I don't want to start my relationship with my horse like that, and I can't see why anyone would. 

Actually, I feel that there are other schools of thought, such as Positive reinforcement programmes and clicker trianing, that encourage this FAR more than parelli and MR etc etc. But we could be here for years discussing that now, so I'll pipe down....


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## Golf Girl (18 July 2011)

Morgan123 said:



			in join up - you're using the horse's body langauge and your own, to send it away and essentially telling it that it mustn't come back until it's going to play by your rules. I don't want to start my relationship with my horse like that, and I can't see why anyone would
		
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Same here, I just couldn't do it, although I appreciate the theory behind it and that it's sound and that it works. Monty is an amazing horseman and I have the greatest respect and admiration for him. To see him do join-up is amazing. He has such empathy with horses


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## Morgan123 (18 July 2011)

Golf Girl said:



			Same here, I just couldn't do it, although I appreciate the theory behind it and that it's sound and that it works. Monty is an amazing horseman and I have the greatest respect and admiration for him. To see him do join-up is amazing. He has such empathy with horses 

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Is it sound theory though?! Wild equid studies didn't show any exmaples of similar behaviour (except one time when a zebra was being chased by a lion and finally turned to face the lionin exhaustion. Mares do chase their foals out of their vicinity, but they do NOT then keep moving them off and chasing (Ive put that in inverted commas because I know join up isnt JUST chasing) their foals until they act submissively. They chase them off once and ignore them. 

Similarly, when I went to see a Monty Roberts demo a while back (a few years ago) he was talking about a scientific study that was ongoing into the heart rates of horses doing join up and whether it was stressful. Since it sounded like this study was done by a pro-MR team, I find it really interesting that it doesnt seem to have been published anywhere (though I would be really interested in being corrected if Im wrong! Please do let me know! But I cant find it!). 

I dont know how much sound science there is behind it. Sure, they can get results  but then so can a lot people! 

Personally I think there are much nicer methods but I know many will disagree.


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## Pale Rider (18 July 2011)

Morgan123 said:



			OK thanks for explaining that! I absolutely absolutely agree that watching, understanding and leanring from the individual horse is paramount and that not enough of this goes on. However I am not sure that's NH as such - I think that is just what should always be done, traditional stuff included. The bits of Parelli and MR etc etc that encourage this are of course beneficial, so there we go - some synergy 

However, in line with Tinypony's excellent comment about everyone seeing things differently re: pressure/what is and isn't on etc etc - I think that there's lots of stuff in both PArelli and MR that is completely coercive, so yes you may be looking at the horse's body language and so on but that doesn't mean you're then using it in a positive or 'kind' way or that it's any better. For example in join up - you're using the horse's body langauge and your own, to send it away and essentially telling it that it mustn't come back until it's going to play by your rules. I don't want to start my relationship with my horse like that, and I can't see why anyone would. 

Actually, I feel that there are other schools of thought, such as Positive reinforcement programmes and clicker trianing, that encourage this FAR more than parelli and MR etc etc. But we could be here for years discussing that now, so I'll pipe down....
		
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I understand what you are talking about completely. Firstly I would caution against using what Parelli offers in the same vain as MR. to my mind they are very different forms of training. Here we are getting into quite complicated areas, and I know a lot of people have seen Parelli demonized on these forums and think that MR is a more acceptable form of training. I believe that the levels of pressure used by MR are way higher than in most other schools of NH, so I don't use his methods or gadgets. The aim and objective should be the correct application of the appropriate level of pressure, and more importantly the release of pressure at the appropriate instant. When you are truely communicating with the horse, and don't forget it is pressure that they communicate with, then the application becomes a suggestion and eventually a thought.

I don't do 'join up' with my horses, we are joined, at least thats how I see it. I think the phrase is, you don't want a horse to join up, you want them to sign up.


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## Morgan123 (18 July 2011)

Pale Rider said:



			I think the phrase is, you don't want a horse to join up, you want them to sign up.
		
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I guess this sums it up really - it just depends on your preferred method of getting them to sign up! Good saying.


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## Tinypony (18 July 2011)

I let out a bit of a sigh when I saw this thread pop up again, but it's turned out quite interesting.  Thanks folks.


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## tess1 (18 July 2011)

Morgan123 said:



			Is it sound theory though?! Wild equid studies didn't show any exmaples of similar behaviour (except one time when a zebra was being chased by a lion and finally turned to face the lionin exhaustion. Mares do chase their foals out of their vicinity, but they do NOT then keep moving them off and &#8216;chasing&#8217; (I&#8217;ve put that in inverted commas because I know join up isn&#8217;t JUST chasing) their foals until they act submissively. They chase them off once and ignore them. 

Similarly, when I went to see a Monty Roberts demo a while back (a few years ago) he was talking about a scientific study that was ongoing into the heart rates of horses doing join up and whether it was stressful. Since it sounded like this study was done by a pro-MR team, I find it really interesting that it doesn&#8217;t seem to have been published anywhere (though I would be really interested in being corrected if I&#8217;m wrong! Please do let me know! But I can&#8217;t find it!). 

I don&#8217;t know how much sound science there is behind it. Sure, they can get results &#8211; but then so can a lot people! 

Personally I think there are much nicer methods but I know many will disagree.
		
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Recently I went to the Equine Behaviour Seminar and Dr Veronica Fowler gave a presentation about this study.  It hasn't been published yet, and a lot of the data is still to be analysed.  In fact, it appears that resources and manpower needed to analyse the data are limited - which makes you wonder why someone would go to the trouble of collecting it all in the first place without the resources to process it 

The main points that came up were:

There is a lot of focus on heart rates - and the heart rate monitors have been used as a 'selling point' on the Monty demos for some time, as 'proof' that the horses are not particularly stressed.  However, as pointed out by Andrew McLean (who was also a speaker at the conference) decreased heart rate variability can actually be an indicator of stress, so that can't be used as a stand alone indicator of the horse's emotional state.  It has to be taken alongside of behavioural indicators (displays of stress and conflict behaviour) and also analysis of cortisol.  The cortisol samples were taken, but have not been analysed, and the manpower does not seem available to analyse the video footage to assess the behaivoural indicators.  Hopefully this will happen at some point in the future - especially as this study is meant to be presented at ISES.

The study pitted Monty - the best (at his methods) - against a presumably competent but relatively unknown conventional trainer.  Monty was adamant, apparently, that he alone would be tested in this study, rather than any of his RAs or anyone else, so there was some question mark over transferability of skills.

In the final 'round up' it was stated that Monty's horses performed 30% better in the final tests.  However, Monty had tack and rider on his horses much quicker than the conventional trainer, and got on with practising the specific tests that would be used at the end to demonstrate the effectiveness of the training.  The conventional trainer was slower at getting the riders on, and then worked on general exercises rather than practising obstacles etc.  Clearly conventional training is slower than Monty's approach, which does disadvantage it in a twenty day study where speed was obviously to the advantage.  Should speed matter, in real life, in horse training (within reason, obviously - nobody wants things to drag on interminably).  

When the lists of equipment requested by each trainer were showed, Monty's list included the buckstopper.  Many times we have heard that this gadget is a method of last resort to avoid a horse being shot - but it seemed to be in his tool bag to get young horses started in a 'scientific' study demonstrating that his methods were 'kind' 

I think join up was used four times with each of Monty's horses.

It was suggested to me that at least one horse did not finish the study, but that is purely word of mouth and I have no evidence of this.


Morgan123 - I think there are kinder methods as well


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## tess1 (18 July 2011)

I should have added that, in my recollection, there were no significant differences in the heart rates between the two groups of horses - so the best that can be said at this preliminary stage is that there is nothing to choose between these two methods when heart rate alone is used as the measure in terms of stress, which is interesting if you think that the conventional trainer was probably working well outside of his comfort zone to get eight horses able to ride a basic dressage test and get round an obstacle course in twenty days, whereas Monty is very familiar with the 'fast results' approach.


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## Morgan123 (18 July 2011)

Tess that is really fascinating, thanks so much for reporting on that! Really interesting reading.


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## Pale Rider (18 July 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			As already stated Natural Horsemanship is perhaps a mis noma, but, we're stuck with it, as Bill Dorrance himself said, 'It is not natural for horses to be around people, and its not natural for a person to sit on a horses back. When we use these words we speak about what's natural for the horse to do within his own boundaries.'

Regarding the question of the 'circus act', where people are critical of the demonstrations, which do sometimes resemble the circus, probably because of the use of the pedestal and or the big green ball.

Boil it all down and the basic art of NH is the application of pressure to the horse with the immidiate release of the pressure when the desired response has occurred.

This is totally understood by horses as it is by the application and release of pressure that they communicate. The pressure comes in phases, from the lightest, by way of a look, to actual contact.

This is the attempt to do what is natural for the horse within his own boundaries.

So what are these horses trying to achieve by the application of all this pressure? Nothing more than causing the subjected horse to move its feet. As soon as the feet move the pressure is released, and it is the release that teaches the horse to move.

We have all seen a horse move anothers forequarters by applying pressure to the neck, this may be as soft as a whisper or as harsh as a bite., depending on the willingness to move.

Asking a horse to place its feet on a pedestal is nothing more than the demonstration of what can be achieved by the appropreate application of pressure and the release. The fact that it may look like what we have come to view as a trick doesn't mean that that is what it is.

I've noticed that people seem to view the Monty Roberts approach to NH training, as perhaps more acceptable than that of Pat Parelli. My own view is that having watched both, Monty Roberts uses far more pressure than Pat Parelli and the release is often slow to come.

I say this because, from the very early 'round pen' demonstrations by Roberts the horse was sent in circles by the application of pressure. The pressure came from the mans stance, the fixing of eye contact and very often putting a line out towards the horse. I would argue that this pressure on the horse is extream, as it was moving its feet often at a fast pace (the horse would expect that the pressure should come off at this point) , but the pressure does not come off until the horse shows signs of submission. The lowering of the head, the licking and chewing, submissive foal behaviour.

The horse quickly positions itself next to the man and mirrors his movements (join up), from this position the horse avoids the application of pressure. Were it not for the high walls or fences of the round pen then the horse would have jumped out and run off, this though is not an option.

The application of pressure by Monty Roberts has been refined by the use of the Be Nice and Dually head collars, which are nothing more than a way of applying harsh pressure to the horses face until it moves its feet forward, but even here in my view the release is not fast enough.

Parelli on the other hand does not ask for the submission of the horse and the pressure is released as soon as the feet move. Because the Parelli demonstrations always take place in an arena with a 4 foot fence, no real containment of the horse, illustrates that the horse does not feel under so much pressure that it wants to jump the fence and leave. 

The application of pressure is not confined to NH, indeed all aspects of traditional horse training is the application of pressure to the horse. The riders legs and hands apply pressure to achieve the desired movement of the feet. When the desired movement is achieved the pressure should be released. The use of a snaffle bit, widely referred to as a mild or kind bit, exerts massive pressure on the horses jaw with its nut cracker action. How often is the pressure not released by the heavy handed rider.

My conclusion is that NH is not a circus act, far from it. The danger lies with the mis application of pressure and the lack of the release. All the horse can do for us is to move his feet either at a walk, trot or canter in the direction of our choosing. What some aspects of Natural Horsemanship are attempting to demonstrate is what level of pressure to apply and when to release that pressure.
		
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An interesting observation on 'join up'.


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## Leah3horses (18 July 2011)

I find it both insulting and amusing at the same time that NH , to non-NH fans..means Parelli..or at least includes Parelli under the NH umbrella. I only use NH methods..which pre date the 'cult' known as Parelli by at least 40 years, if we are referring to MR. Personally I use modern NH/Classical methods such as Michael Peace, Kelly Marks and Tom Widdicombe, with a thorough grounding in MR methods. Imo Parelli is to NH what Plastic Surgery is to Natural Beauty..a complete misnomer.

NH to me just means using common sense,non- confrontational methods and treating horses with some respect. I don't slavishly follow any NH trainer, I read and educate myself and pick and choose what makes sense to me..and if it doesn't work, I use something else from my NH experience.  The problem I have with 'traditional' methods is..what if the horse doesn't respond to initial methods, eg spurs/whip? Traditional methods are very rigid, and don't leave much scope to try something else that the horse may understand more easily. Which is why some 'traditional' people tend to shout at, then escalate to hitting their horse when he doesn't understand something. Instead of trying a different way, they just escalate the force.  I had to spend a few months in the bad winter last year on a 'livery yard' run by an ignorant,'old school' traditional woman...who bullied her horses and shouted and screamed at them constantly , and her son at the yard,for every little thing. My quiet, NH trained mares' attitude changed and she became quite defensive with this person, understandably, as I did too!...the change in the womans horses when she wasn't there, and I was there just going about the chores quietly and asking the horses to move over firmly but quietly, was unbelieveable. From tense,miserable,'stroppy' horses who continually squabbled with stable mates over food and space, they actually relaxed visibly and became much easier to turn out etc. The owner would never ever even think of turning her 2 mares out at the same time,  they were so spooky and reactive..and the more she shouted at them the worse they got...but she couldn't/wouldn't see how she was acting was the root of their problems...I did turn them out together on a loose lead rein, with my quiet mare following behind loose, as I always insist my horses can be trusted loose...and they can..but she didn't believe me, or allow me to demonstrate..'it was too dangerous' (the irony was lost on her!). 

NH to me is about helping and allowing your horse to act as a horse, while getting their co operation and reducing their adrenalin levels at the same time, so they are less 'spooky' or reactive than non NH trained horses...nothing to do with 'Circus Tricks'

So, my point is...Parelli and 'Circus Tricks' are NOT part of real, common sense NH and experience.


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## lassiesuca (18 July 2011)

I use the clicker as an aid or tool in training my horses. I don't follow a method although I adhere to classical dressage principles. I don't follow 'NH'. 

However; I think we restrict ourselves as horse people if we stereotype and begin to condemn certain walks, I suppose I see it as the two big circles 'NH' and 'Traditional'. 


I'm in neither, I'm an individual and I'm unique- just like my horses are. I don't like the way Parelli categorise horses into 4 categories and stick a TM label on it- and then cheekily say we're all different, something rings as weird? 

I *think* we can get the best out of horsemanship if we listen to our horses, not Mr Cowboy Horse Whisperer or Mrs 'I take no *****' lady. I think that we have to use tools to aid our horses training and education (as well as ours), apposed to seclude ourselves from society because they aren't x, y or z. 


Although I will say, a lot of people who would deem themselves as 'NHists' because it is kinder is unfair. I've seen a lot of bad work in NH (not just Parelli, but I don't like Monty either, I don't like Clinton, I don't like Cox, Lyons etc as PEOPLE) and I don't really like many of their methods, because actually I think they can use a lot of force and learned helplessness because they base their philosophy on the language of horses, although I'd argue that a lot of it is a flawed misinterpretation and only trains horses to submit, apposed to expressing themselves because it's all about being the 'alpha' mare (I HATE that!). 


But hey, it's the equine world, nobody agrees, debate happens and we can't resolve it, we can discuss it and then make the individual decision to go from there. What we must remember though is our horses in all this, we have to be compassionate and try and show empathy and patience. This is something which can't be copyrighted and branded by someone, because it's something we all have within us and it's something we should all use as a standard rule in training.


MTA- when I mean tools, I don't mean gadgets etc, but our tools can be anything from our voice, body language, a clicker etc.


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## Pale Rider (18 July 2011)

Leah3horses said:



			I find it both insulting and amusing at the same time that NH , to non-NH fans..means Parelli..or at least includes Parelli under the NH umbrella. I only use NH methods..which pre date the 'cult' known as Parelli by at least 40 years, if we are referring to MR. Personally I use modern NH/Classical methods such as Michael Peace, Kelly Marks and Tom Widdicombe, with a thorough grounding in MR methods. Imo Parelli is to NH what Plastic Surgery is to Natural Beauty..a complete misnomer.

NH to me just means using common sense,non- confrontational methods and treating horses with some respect. I don't slavishly follow any NH trainer, I read and educate myself and pick and choose what makes sense to me..and if it doesn't work, I use something else from my NH experience.  The problem I have with 'traditional' methods is..what if the horse doesn't respond to initial methods, eg spurs/whip? Traditional methods are very rigid, and don't leave much scope to try something else that the horse may understand more easily. Which is why some 'traditional' people tend to shout at, then escalate to hitting their horse when he doesn't understand something. Instead of trying a different way, they just escalate the force.  I had to spend a few months in the bad winter last year on a 'livery yard' run by an ignorant,'old school' traditional woman...who bullied her horses and shouted and screamed at them constantly , and her son at the yard,for every little thing. My quiet, NH trained mares' attitude changed and she became quite defensive with this person, understandably, as I did too!...the change in the womans horses when she wasn't there, and I was there just going about the chores quietly and asking the horses to move over firmly but quietly, was unbelieveable. From tense,miserable,'stroppy' horses who continually squabbled with stable mates over food and space, they actually relaxed visibly and became much easier to turn out etc. The owner would never ever even think of turning her 2 mares out at the same time,  they were so spooky and reactive..and the more she shouted at them the worse they got...but she couldn't/wouldn't see how she was acting was the root of their problems...I did turn them out together on a loose lead rein, with my quiet mare following behind loose, as I always insist my horses can be trusted loose...and they can..but she didn't believe me, or allow me to demonstrate..'it was too dangerous' (the irony was lost on her!). 

NH to me is about helping and allowing your horse to act as a horse, while getting their co operation and reducing their adrenalin levels at the same time, so they are less 'spooky' or reactive than non NH trained horses...nothing to do with 'Circus Tricks'

So, my point is...Parelli and 'Circus Tricks' are NOT part of real, common sense NH and experience.
		
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I guess we will have to dis agree about Parelli, which is fine.

Reading your post though was excellent, a real good example of 'Your horse is your mirror'.


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## tazzle (18 July 2011)

Tinypony said:



			From the age of 3 until my late teens I was steeped in the way that most riders in this country learn to deal with horses.  I rode conventionally,.... ...I'd suddenly had a crashing attack of doubt about what I was being taught to do to the horse to get the results that would win the ribbons.  I went to a Parelli Savvy Day (1998 I think) and as I walked in Pat Parelli said something that hit me to the core.  He said roughly something like this:  "Remember when you were a kid and you used to go down to the pasture to catch your pony, put the halter on his head, jump on and then gallop back to the yard without a care in the world?  Where have those days gone?"  ......I think what I'm saying is that nh and other approaches to horsemanship offer us so many choices and opportunities to look at different ways of doing things with our horses, that MIGHT be an improvement on what we do now.  So it always makes me sad when people dismiss such a huge and varied philosphy as nh based on judgements made about the price of one programme, or a few horses they've seen that were badly trained.  I've got news, there are badly trained horses all over the country, 1,000's of them.  Not all of their owners wave orange sticks.  Not all of their owners ride either.
OK, ramble over... back to work. LOL! and 

Isn't it always going to be an issue though that one person's view of unduly coercing a horse will be absolutely fine for someone else?
I wince at the way some people deal with horses in fairly simple situations, such as maybe twitching just to clip, or walloping and shouting when they think a horse is being "rude". However, others will think I am too coercive because I will use a rope halter, and will flick a bit of my horse with the end of my rope (I use the word flick advisedly there, I don't mean a "phase 4" contact). Even people who use methods that are thought to really lack coercion, like clicker trainers, will disagree. For some anything other than working at liberty is coercion, whereas others are fine to have a halter or headcollar and rope and thefore restrict and guide the horse's options a bit.
So, whichever trainer you say you like, someone else will leap in and go off on one saying they disagree and that that trainer is coercive or maybe even abusive. 
I think all we can do is set our own limits and make our personal decision about what sits right with us. Then work with trainers who enhance that. Also be prepared to agree to disagree, even with our trainers. I disagree with a couple of things that my main trainer is OK with, but that doesn't mean I dismiss everything he does. Babies and bathwater come to mind.
		
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gosh tinypony you are indeed in fine fettle today   
agree wholehearedly


and as I am her friend there is no subtext there 



I _am_ this friend 




			A friend of mine who posts here came up with an interesting test of how you can check how much you and your horse rely on the rope (this would be useful maybe before moving to liberty). She tucked the rope loosely in her belt and then found out how it all worked. Oh, before anyone asks, what is the point of that? The principle of no pull from the person and no pull or lean from the horse is that it extends to ridden work. It's the foundation for having a horse that is light on your hands and has good self carriage.
		
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This is becoming a very interesting discussion in good spirits about the general use of the methodologies and  ideologies rather than generally taking only the extreme / abusive / inept users of each "camp" and using them as examples of how "bad" each method is. 






			palerider
I don't think, in general, people put enough foundation into their horses. For example there was a post yesterday, about someone going to an 'event' and when umbarellas were put up because of the rain, a lot of the horses freaked out. The OP said fortunately most of the riders were 'good' enough to stay on. My point here is that these horses should not be at an 'event' until they were sound enough not to freak out at mundane things like umbarellas.

These horses cannot be ready to compete if they are as poorly prepaired as that, and as most people who compete, at the moment, are what you would call traditional, the fault must lie here.
		
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agree totally





I do not agree 100% with any of the trainers whos clinics I have been too either.... some I agree more with than others and one or two I really did not like.


ok  I have run out of time for the mo and lost track as had severl interuptions too ...... gotta go deal with "life" stuff 



just a quickie last bit

When I look at a relaxed horse that is comfortable in its job / with learnig new stuff ...... that can cope with most of the things that life throws at it ( all of us jump at unexpected /scary stuff ) that is soft and responsive .... and see a handler / rider that is relaxed and using soft asks ....... then  I am interested in whatever methodology got it there and dont really care what it is labeled at ( and if the big name that fronts it or the person down the lane that tries to do the same both get awful results or use force / abusive levels of the technique then I shall critique them !)


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## Tinypony (18 July 2011)

I don't know about fine fettle, it was more "work avoidance" to be honest.
The curse of those who work at home.


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## Marydoll (18 July 2011)

This has been an interesting thread, and tbh i'd have to say i have an eclectic approach to training, using, in my opinion the best bits from various people.
I agree with many traditional methods, but not all, and will use Richard Maxwell stuff to fill in the gaps as he's got such a common sense approach to training using the best of natural and traditional.
I have used Monty stuff with some success, but always come back to Max's approach as its never failed me yet.
Ive looked at Parelli and wont dismiss it out of hand, but it is not for me or my horses, i just dont like big parts of it.
I feel there are good and bad in all training systems, if it doesnt feel right dont do it. I came to this conclusion when a very prominent, famous trainer told me to use a chiffney on a rearer i'd have to say i was a bit shocked as it didnt match the methods they waxed lyrical about !! i must have missed that chapter in theyre book and dvd's


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## PuddingandPie (18 July 2011)

I am SO glad that people with informed opinions are still posting!!  Such interesting views that appear balanced and arrived at through first hand experience.  I couldn't disagree in particular with any of the last 3 or 4 postings and I believe that there are specific ingredients that work for some and not for others.  I have never put a twitch on any of my horses ever and have also been shocked to learn that people "doing" my horses have reverted to one the instant there appears to be a problem.  I don't use a chifney, any headcollars with studs or that tighten.  My horses are kept in a herd, come to call and put themselves into their boxes without headcollars...although not always exactly as I had planned!!  I suppose my horses probably like me more than respect me and this may result in problems in the future....who knows.


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## Golf Girl (18 July 2011)

PuddingandPie said:



			I am SO glad that people with informed opinions are still posting!!  Such interesting views that appear balanced and arrived at through first hand experience.
		
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I agree 100%! Long may it continue


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## fburton (18 July 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			The lowering of the head, the licking and chewing, submissive foal behaviour.
		
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Hmm... I don't think the licking and chewing one sees in JoinUp is anything like the foal mouthing gesture.

Which looks likes this... lips retracted, mouth opened and closed repeatedly.


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## fburton (18 July 2011)

amandap said:



			Yes great post. Tinypony is talking a lot of sense in my eyes.
		
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Wholeheartedly seconded (thirded?).


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## Golf Girl (18 July 2011)

fburton said:



			Wholeheartedly seconded (thirded?).
		
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Tinypony for President!


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## amandap (18 July 2011)

fburton said:



			Wholeheartedly seconded (thirded?).
		
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 I value your opinion fburton, so I must warn you not to agree with anything I say. I'm mental apparently. 
http://quarrystables.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=training&action=display&thread=704&page=2


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## talkinghorse (18 July 2011)

amandap said:



			I value your opinion fburton, so I must warn you not to agree with anything I say. I'm mental apparently. 
http://quarrystables.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=training&action=display&thread=704&page=2

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At least they are letting the deranged in. I wonder how they classify me, I clicked the link and got:
"An Error Has Occurred
Sorry, but you have been banned from this forum."

Nice that they can still offer an apology, even though they seem to know that if I read what they are saying they might all change into frogs!


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## Tinypony (18 July 2011)

Golf Girl said:



			Tinypony for President! 

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Good grief!  Heaven forbid!  That will have set me up for some "interesting" comments.  
	
	
		
		
	


	





And as for Mental, well...


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## Tinypony (18 July 2011)

Back on topic... I agree with Fburton, what is seen in Join Up isn't the same as the baby teeth that foals do is it?  So what is it?  Some form of displacement?
I got into a bit of a fix once saying that I thought Join Up was quite crude compared to some round pen work.  Maybe crude was the wrong word.  I meant that I could see that it worked in that it got the result that was wanted.  However I have seen some lovely subtle round pen work with relatively untouched horses that has, on the face of it anyway, brought about the same results.  The difference was pretty fundamental really, the focus was on encouraging the horse to stay, and if it left inviting it in as soon as possible.  (Join Up doesn't reward the smallest and earliest signs, but waits for some pretty big changes in the horse ie the dropping of the head and the chewing). To my eyes the results looked different in that the horse was hooked on to the person, but in a more relaxed way.  Hard to explain unless you've seen it really.


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## talkinghorse (20 July 2011)

Tinypony said:



			 The difference was pretty fundamental really, the focus was on encouraging the horse to stay, and if it left inviting it in as soon as possible.  (Join Up doesn't reward the smallest and earliest signs, but waits for some pretty big changes in the horse ie the dropping of the head and the chewing). 
		
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I think of JoinUp as the first day at school. I don't expect the Headmistress to seem like my best buddy, but I want to feel secure and that I am safe in her presence. JoinUp is quite different when performed with the well-handled and socialised new pupil, from when performed with the recalcitrant youth. 

Your comment "Join Up doesn't reward the smallest and earliest signs, but waits for some pretty big changes in the horse ie the dropping of the head and the chewing" generally applies only to the 'recalcitrant youth' or the hardened ASBO holder. With a normal starter - one where there have been a couple of weeks of despooking and in-hand work - the earliest changes are rewarded and Join-Up may be done only once, for example, when the saddle is put on. 

Generalisations on JoinUp become difficult to make when the process that is used changes with each horse. It is, at the end of the day a formal conversation, so like an interview, certain formalities and procedures are observed, but the conversation is never the same for any two horses. 

We need to bear in mind that JoinUp occurs at the very start of the training. JoinUp is only horse Kindergarten and is rarely performed more than four times, most usually twice - once to establish the formal relationship and second to ensure that the horse is happy with the saddle. There is a lot more we have to teach the horse before we have completed its education.


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## Tinypony (20 July 2011)

I'll agree to disagree on the earliest signs.  I've spent time with RA's and been to demos and it has been quite clear that they wait for specific signs and they are not the early and subtle ones.  I have heard this process explained clearly many times, and if that's the way they do it then I'm not going to get particularly wound up about it.  Although I will be honest and say that I have been extremely uncomfortable about the stress I've seen some horses put under during the Join Up process by some expert users.
I agree that it is the start of the training and recognise that for some it is the best way to start training.  Personally I prefer other ways of starting training, but variety is the spice of life.


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## Tnavas (20 July 2011)

When you can work your horse totally free with it listening and co-operating with you would be an amazing feeling.

It takes trust and a partnership. I remember watching a NH partnership work together and yes you can say it looks like a circus trick but the horse and handler were one. 

Wherever the handler went the horse went too, the handler started running and the horse cantered beside him, he stopped the horse stopped, he got on the horse, bareback and no bridle and rode the horse around the Hunter course - to the stunned faces of the soon to be entries in the class with their horses in various items of gear, Pelhams, martingalesm riders with spurs.

His whole performance had me in tears. I'd love to have a partnership  like that with my horses.

Basic NH is pure commonsense and basic equine discipline. Take away it's label and you have a very well behaved trusting horse.


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## Morgan123 (20 July 2011)

Evelyn said:



			When you can work your horse totally free with it listening and co-operating with you would be an amazing feeling.

It takes trust and a partnership. I remember watching a NH partnership work together and yes you can say it looks like a circus trick but the horse and handler were one. 

Wherever the handler went the horse went too, the handler started running and the horse cantered beside him, he stopped the horse stopped, he got on the horse, bareback and no bridle and rode the horse around the Hunter course - to the stunned faces of the soon to be entries in the class with their horses in various items of gear, Pelhams, martingalesm riders with spurs.

His whole performance had me in tears. I'd love to have a partnership  like that with my horses.

Basic NH is pure commonsense and basic equine discipline. Take away it's label and you have a very well behaved trusting horse.
		
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The thing is, everyone quotes liberty work as one of the best things about NH and the things you can aspire to, but it's not the case. 'NH' is just one of the ways you can achieve that. HAving been through a whole host of schools of thought on horsemanship, if I had to label myself I suppose I am pretty traditional these days, though I do favour clickers with some horses for some tasks. BUT I also comfortably ride 2/3 of my horses with no tack at all, including jumping them (I will do with the third one eventually but he's a rescue case and very nervy, so thats a long term goal!!). I am comfortable that my horses express themselves and that when they work for me, they are doing so because it suits both of us, not becuase I'm bossing them around - we negotiate together and I listen to them. You can listen to, have agreat relationship with, and have happy horses without needing to join a NH school.


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## Pale Rider (20 July 2011)

Morgan123 said:



			The thing is, everyone quotes liberty work as one of the best things about NH and the things you can aspire to, but it's not the case. 'NH' is just one of the ways you can achieve that. HAving been through a whole host of schools of thought on horsemanship, if I had to label myself I suppose I am pretty traditional these days, though I do favour clickers with some horses for some tasks. BUT I also comfortably ride 2/3 of my horses with no tack at all, including jumping them (I will do with the third one eventually but he's a rescue case and very nervy, so thats a long term goal!!). I am comfortable that my horses express themselves and that when they work for me, they are doing so because it suits both of us, not becuase I'm bossing them around - we negotiate together and I listen to them. You can listen to, have agreat relationship with, and have happy horses without needing to join a NH school.
		
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Well it is true that liberty work is seen as one of the best things about NH and what people who are taken by these methods aspire to. Which ever method you use, I believe that once you free them, not in a school, or restricted area, but where they have the choice to stay with you or not thats really a measure of the relationship you have with them. If you have been 'forcing' it or 'faking' it in the school or restricted area, you cannot do it where they have the room to leave, because they always do.


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## Morgan123 (21 July 2011)

Yes - exactly my point. And you can achieve that wiuthout parelli or MR or anything. I don't force my horses - quite the opposite. In fact, my mare will not do anything at all if you try and force her whihc is why I was givne her for free, lucky me ! Nobody could really do anything with her. Be kind and quiet and you can do anything - I happily galloped her around a big field with no tack last year and it was a great feeling.

We have to remember that when summing up the pros and cons of each school of thought we need to look at the method and not necessarily the results (by result I mean the specific behaviours which are being worked on; backing up or working loose or circus tricks or whatever). There was a girl in our yard doing parelli for a bit and she had got to a point where she could point her carrot stick at her horse's feet and he'd pick them up. Another girl said to me that she wanted to start parelli becuase she wanted her horse to pick up his feet when she pointed at them. Obviously, that is completely ridiculous beucase there are any number of ways you can make a horse pick up its feet by pointing at them - I taught mine the same using a clicker. It's the method we should be looking at, not the resulting behaviours that have been taught.


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## Tinypony (21 July 2011)

Why not start up a thread about clicker?  That would be really interesting and probably get more attention than if it's hidden in a discussion about nh.


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## team barney (21 July 2011)

Most liberty work performed in demos/videos for NH (not just Parelli but 99% of the schools) isn't really at liberty anyway in my opinion.  To me at liberty means no rope, no saddle no stick, no gadgets, in essence nothing but you and your horse.  I am sure many people's opinions will differ to mine but that is how I feel.
I ride one of my horses entirely gadget free (the others are retired).  I have jumped upto 3'3" at liberty.  I have also jumped up to 3'9" bareback with just a leadrope around his neck, but I wouldn't consider that at liberty.  I was told when I got him that he wouldn't jump higher than 2'6".  
I could hack out at liberty if I so wanted, the fact I possess a brain tells me that it is not a sensible idea so I save the liberty work for the fields and school!


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## diamondrockharvey (21 July 2011)

'Good horsemanship is good horsemanship - it should not be thought of as a fad or style' Quote Master Horseman David Stuart


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## Pale Rider (21 July 2011)

Why completely ridiculous, yes you can do it a number of ways, but if someone wanted to learn Parelli, why not? It's the same as me saying, 'clicker training, how ridiculous, there are other ways to do it.' 

I agree that liberty is just you and the horse.


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## Tinypony (21 July 2011)

Forgive me for being cynical, but so many people make claims about what they can do bareback and bridleless and at liberty, but we never see any proof.  Can anyone who isn't a nh student here just go out and video themselves one day doing some things like this.  Just to put their money where their mouths are?  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAfIT_RYIoY&feature=youtu.be
Or, if you wanted to do something along these lines, I'd forgive the use of a neck rope...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ow2yDdRK_Zc&feature=youtu.be

I like the first one best by the way.

Because... love or hate the way they go about getting these results, these nh students are brave enough to video what they are doing and put it up for the world to praise or pull apart as they wish.  I think it would be kind of polite for their strongest critics, if they claim that it's all common sense and they can do that anyway without being nh students, to do the same.


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## Morgan123 (21 July 2011)

Tinypony said:



			Forgive me for being cynical, but so many people make claims about what they can do bareback and bridleless and at liberty, but we never see any proof.  Can anyone who isn't a nh student here just go out and video themselves one day doing some things like this.  Just to put their money where their mouths are?  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAfIT_RYIoY&feature=youtu.be
Or, if you wanted to do something along these lines, I'd forgive the use of a neck rope...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ow2yDdRK_Zc&feature=youtu.be

I like the first one best by the way.

Because... love or hate the way they go about getting these results, these nh students are brave enough to video what they are doing and put it up for the world to praise or pull apart as they wish.  I think it would be kind of polite for their strongest critics, if they claim that it's all common sense and they can do that anyway without being nh students, to do the same.
		
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Cool OK I'm going to do it. I'll dig out the ol' video camera!!!


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## Tinypony (21 July 2011)

Brilliant!  Maybe we could have a special thread for it.


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## team barney (21 July 2011)

Tinypony said:



			Forgive me for being cynical, but so many people make claims about what they can do bareback and bridleless and at liberty, but we never see any proof.  Can anyone who isn't a nh student here just go out and video themselves one day doing some things like this.  Just to put their money where their mouths are?  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAfIT_RYIoY&feature=youtu.be
Or, if you wanted to do something along these lines, I'd forgive the use of a neck rope...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ow2yDdRK_Zc&feature=youtu.be

I like the first one best by the way.

Because... love or hate the way they go about getting these results, these nh students are brave enough to video what they are doing and put it up for the world to praise or pull apart as they wish.  I think it would be kind of polite for their strongest critics, if they claim that it's all common sense and they can do that anyway without being nh students, to do the same.
		
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It is your choice wether you believe me or not, you are more than welcome to presume me a liar, I know that I am not lying or even slightly exaggerating and that is all that matters to me.

My relationship with my boy is personal and I don't feel the need to display it to the world and as a consequence of this I don't post videos of myself and my horses on youtube, I have those treasures for my own enjoyment, not to prove myself to the world.  I don't need to justify my partnership with my horses as I know it is there, and quite frankly I don't need to court the praise most of these youtube users are after.

I am quite certain many will brand me a fraud because I refuse to prove myself, they are more than welcome to do that.


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## Tinypony (21 July 2011)

I am not accusing you of being a liar.  I am maybe suggesting that you are being a bit unfair. 
Whether I choose to believe your claims or not is neither here nor there.  It will be fun to see the tackfree and liberty videos from people who are up for showing some fun though won't it?


A lot of You Tube users put their videos up so that they can share them with friends, and a lot of the Parelli ones are up there because it's how they get their "auditions" assessed.  However, I think they are brave because they post them knowing that somewhere people might rip them to shreds and call their training into question.


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## Golf Girl (21 July 2011)

Tinypony said:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAfIT_RYIoY&feature=youtu.be
Or, if you wanted to do something along these lines, I'd forgive the use of a neck rope...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ow2yDdRK_Zc&feature=youtu.be

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Fantastic! I've seen Mikey on the 'Spotlight' section at the Parelli Celebrations and he never ceases to amaze. Agnes and Iroy are equally impressive. Very inspirational, thanks for sharing


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## diamondrockharvey (21 July 2011)

Golf Girl said:



			Fantastic! I've seen Mikey on the 'Spotlight' section at the Parelli Celebrations and he never ceases to amaze. Agnes and Iroy are equally impressive. Very inspirational, thanks for sharing 

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I've seen Mikey a few times to and he is awesome, and always adds an element of fun to it, like when he turns his cap around and goes galloping around the arena bareback and bridleless!
His relationship with his horses is amazing.
When the horse is at liberty it doesn't really matter how you 'trained' the horse, they are free to do as they wish and so what you are seeing in these performances is the truth about how these horses feel about their human partners and that says it all really!


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## Golf Girl (21 July 2011)

team barney said:



			It is your choice wether you believe me or not, you are more than welcome to presume me a liar, I know that I am not lying or even slightly exaggerating and that is all that matters to me.

My relationship with my boy is personal and I don't feel the need to display it to the world and as a consequence of this I don't post videos of myself and my horses on youtube, I have those treasures for my own enjoyment, not to prove myself to the world.  I don't need to justify my partnership with my horses as I know it is there, and quite frankly I don't need to court the praise most of these youtube users are after.

I am quite certain many will brand me a fraud because I refuse to prove myself, they are more than welcome to do that.
		
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Oh come on TB, let's see if you can 'walk the walk'


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## Tinypony (21 July 2011)

As someone who has been a Parelli student and worked with my horses to a fairly high level of liberty, I have to say hand on heart that not all of it was relationship, there were elements of trained compulsion in there as well.  With one of my horses the liberty was great and very easy to train and direct because he had a real natural aptitude for it.  The other though was not so amenable and so really his responses, even at the "level 3" liberty point when able to work in an open field with other horses, were more trained.

I make no claims about what I can or can't do at liberty because it is not a big interest for me now with my current horses, so no videos.  I wish I'd realised when I was a Parelli student how much I would regret not giving people a video camera and asking them to record for me though.  I have one video on You Tube, but it's on-line work.  I'm not secretive about what I'm doing now though, and there are photos and clinic write-ups about that include me and my horses.


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## Golf Girl (21 July 2011)

Tinypony said:



			I'm not secretive about what I'm doing now though, and there are photos and clinic write-ups about that include me and my horses.
		
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Do share TP!


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## Tinypony (21 July 2011)

This is old, I could criticise it a lot.  However, it's where we were then.  The more discerning viewer may notice a certain "something" not quite in my mare's movement.  This is her last "working" day before she had to retire at the age of 6.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zrjlz3taV-Y


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## Golf Girl (21 July 2011)

Tinypony said:



			This is old, I could criticise it a lot.  However, it's where we were then.  The more discerning viewer may notice a certain "something" not quite in my mare's movement.  This is her last "working" day before she had to retire at the age of 6.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zrjlz3taV-Y

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Great to see, thanks for sharing!


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## Morgan123 (21 July 2011)

Pale Rider said:



			Why completely ridiculous, yes you can do it a number of ways, but if someone wanted to learn Parelli, why not? It's the same as me saying, 'clicker training, how ridiculous, there are other ways to do it.' 

I agree that liberty is just you and the horse.
		
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Pale Rider - you missed my point. I meant the girl was being ridiculous becuase her reason for wanting to do Parelli was that she wanted to be able to make her horse lift its feet by pointing a stick at them. That makes no sense becuase it's not a reason to get into parelli; the horse picking up its feet by pointing a stick at it can be achieved in all manner of ways. you could, for example, use some fairly awful methods including hobbles and whips and things. you could simply tap your horse's foot every day when you're picking them out and get further and further away each time. you could use a clicker, you could use parelli. 

Obviously if she has other reasons to get into Parelli that's fair enough - but my point was that what we need to be assessing is the method itself, and not what appears to be an end result/resulting behaviour, because they can be achieved in all manner of ways - some fairly awful and some very kind. the same is true of liberty work - i am sure it would be possible to subdue a horse in any number of horrible ways and have it still 'perform' at liberty.


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## diamondrockharvey (21 July 2011)

Morgan123 said:



			- i am sure it would be possible to subdue a horse in any number of horrible ways and have it still 'perform' at liberty.
		
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But if you can read the horse's expression, movement through his body etc you would soon see whether that horse 'wants' to be with his human or not!


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## Morgan123 (21 July 2011)

yes i know - but my point is that you must study the method and not the resulting behaviour.


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## Morgan123 (21 July 2011)

Tinypony said:



			Forgive me for being cynical, but so many people make claims about what they can do bareback and bridleless and at liberty, but we never see any proof.  Can anyone who isn't a nh student here just go out and video themselves one day doing some things like this.  Just to put their money where their mouths are?  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAfIT_RYIoY&feature=youtu.be
Or, if you wanted to do something along these lines, I'd forgive the use of a neck rope...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ow2yDdRK_Zc&feature=youtu.be

I like the first one best by the way.

Because... love or hate the way they go about getting these results, these nh students are brave enough to video what they are doing and put it up for the world to praise or pull apart as they wish.  I think it would be kind of polite for their strongest critics, if they claim that it's all common sense and they can do that anyway without being nh students, to do the same.
		
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Just got the chance to watch these on my lunchbreak - do you know how the first horse is trained?? Love that one, he looks so happy. Am i the only one that thinks the second horse doesn't look quite so joyful though? ears are slightly back, tail swishing, he is not being very expressive - in the first video, for example, the pony is jumping into his upwards transitions and looks thoroughly like he's enjoying himself. in the second the horse looks like he's doing what he thinks he has to do?? would be interested to hear what others think.

Thanks tinypony!


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## Golf Girl (21 July 2011)

Morgan123 said:



			Am i the only one that thinks the second horse doesn't look quite so joyful though? ears are slightly back, tail swishing, he is not being very expressive - in the first video, for example, the pony is jumping into his upwards transitions and looks thoroughly like he's enjoying himself. in the second the horse looks like he's doing what he thinks he has to do?? would be interested to hear what others think.
		
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I thought exactly the same.


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## fburton (21 July 2011)

Morgan123 said:



			yes i know - but my point is that you must study the method and not the resulting behaviour.
		
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The end result is important, but I agree with you that _how_ it is achieved shouldn't be ignored. To my mind, the journey matters as much as the destination, if not more so.


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## diamondrockharvey (21 July 2011)

fburton said:



			To my mind, the journey matters as much as the destination, if not more so.
		
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AMEN!


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## team barney (21 July 2011)

fburton said:



			The end result is important, but I agree with you that _how_ it is achieved shouldn't be ignored. To my mind, the journey matters as much as the destination, if not more so.
		
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Whole heartedly agree with above statement.


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## Pale Rider (21 July 2011)

Tinypony said:



			This is old, I could criticise it a lot.  However, it's where we were then.  The more discerning viewer may notice a certain "something" not quite in my mare's movement.  This is her last "working" day before she had to retire at the age of 6.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zrjlz3taV-Y

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Tiny, what can I say, your horse is beautiful. Thanks for posting.


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## Pale Rider (21 July 2011)

Morgan123 said:



			Pale Rider - you missed my point. I meant the girl was being ridiculous becuase her reason for wanting to do Parelli was that she wanted to be able to make her horse lift its feet by pointing a stick at them. That makes no sense becuase it's not a reason to get into parelli; the horse picking up its feet by pointing a stick at it can be achieved in all manner of ways. you could, for example, use some fairly awful methods including hobbles and whips and things. you could simply tap your horse's foot every day when you're picking them out and get further and further away each time. you could use a clicker, you could use parelli. 

Obviously if she has other reasons to get into Parelli that's fair enough - but my point was that what we need to be assessing is the method itself, and not what appears to be an end result/resulting behaviour, because they can be achieved in all manner of ways - some fairly awful and some very kind. the same is true of liberty work - i am sure it would be possible to subdue a horse in any number of horrible ways and have it still 'perform' at liberty.
		
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Morgan I confess, I did miss the point. I understand what you are saying now.


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## padderpaws (21 July 2011)

just an observation but I have never read of anyone objecting to traditional English trainers making a huge amount of money out of their training methods and equipment.  Why is it such a huge crime for some NH trainers to make money??????  What is wrong with marketing your art??? Trainers of any sort are not charities.


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## Tinypony (21 July 2011)

Both of the horses in the videos are Parelli trained.  I think it demonstrates that some people are applying the method a bit differently and that as a result some horses are much happier about what they are doing than others.  Hats off to Mikey though, that's pretty amazing.


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## tazzle (21 July 2011)

just to put a CT one in 

I dont usually reward this much as most of it is basic for her now  ( the sidestep at the tarpaulin was NOT  from the tarpaulin... there was a pone just out of sight off camera right that made a lunge at her  ).......  I just upped reinforcement rate cos its first time we were doing this in public and off line .... we mostly train off line at home.

http://s17.photobucket.com/albums/b...ction=view&current=agilityemwdemojune2010.mp4



I totally agree that it is HOW one gets there that is the important thing ... I know how the principles of getting liberty work parelli style but am not prepared to do it that way. I do not want my horse to stay with me because I make it harder for her when she leaves me !


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## Pale Rider (21 July 2011)

team barney said:



			It is your choice wether you believe me or not, you are more than welcome to presume me a liar, I know that I am not lying or even slightly exaggerating and that is all that matters to me.

My relationship with my boy is personal and I don't feel the need to display it to the world and as a consequence of this I don't post videos of myself and my horses on youtube, I have those treasures for my own enjoyment, not to prove myself to the world.  I don't need to justify my partnership with my horses as I know it is there, and quite frankly I don't need to court the praise most of these youtube users are after.

I am quite certain many will brand me a fraud because I refuse to prove myself, they are more than welcome to do that.
		
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I think its a bit disingenuous to suggest people who post videos on youtube are simply courting praise. I really think it is good that people feel confident enough to let everyone see how they have interpreted the training and how it is with their horses.

I for one am now definately going to get some of my trainng sessions filmed. 

For someone who has made much use of youtube in furthering their crusade against Parelli as you have, its a bit spineless not backing up your words, which have been many and very critical, to say the least.

I don't know if you have been telling lies about yourself and your abilities or not, but I think it says a lot about you personally, not wanting to show the folk you have crusaded against how you think things should be done.

My mind goes back to the youngster who posted how excited they were about having a lesson off a Parelli instructor and was subjected to a barrage of critism, of which you were part, so much critism in fact, she cancelled the lesson and appologised.

I hope people will take a bit less notice of your postings now as it does appear that you are a bit of a fraud.


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## tess1 (22 July 2011)

Tinypony said:



			Both of the horses in the videos are Parelli trained.  I think it demonstrates that some people are applying the method a bit differently and that as a result some horses are much happier about what they are doing than others.  Hats off to Mikey though, that's pretty amazing.
		
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well .... while Mikey may be a bloody good rider with his leaping over picnic tables and such (and no, palerider, before you ask, there are no youtube vids of me leaping over picnic tables, either with or without horses) I'm afraid I don't find the video 'amazing' because the horse shows a fair few stress and conflict behaviours - I hated the 'piaffe' in particular - it is so clear that this stuff has all been taught through escalating pressure and I don't believe that the horse is comfortable in his performance.  Now, that is not to say that a lot of conventionally trained horses look pretty uncomfortable when they are 'performing' - but this stuff is sold on the 'relationship' - and it's not so much the relationship but a considerable amount of high-end negative reinforcement and positive punishment that has got the horse to this point.

The bottom line is, as someone has already said, it IS the journey and not the destination - and I don't reckon this horse has enjoyed the journey too much   I don't care about what anyone can teach until I know how they teach it - and if it's done by making life hard for the horse when he doesn't do what is expected ... then for me that's not very inspiring.

The Agnes video ... now I see that as a much, much better example - there are far less stress and conflict behaviours shown, and the horse really seems to be enjoying a lot of what he does.  A much more enjoyable picture all round.    More Agnes and less Mikey I reckon


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## Pale Rider (22 July 2011)

tess1 said:



			well .... while Mikey may be a bloody good rider with his leaping over picnic tables and such (and no, palerider, before you ask, there are no youtube vids of me leaping over picnic tables, either with or without horses) I'm afraid I don't find the video 'amazing' because the horse shows a fair few stress and conflict behaviours - I hated the 'piaffe' in particular - it is so clear that this stuff has all been taught through escalating pressure and I don't believe that the horse is comfortable in his performance.  Now, that is not to say that a lot of conventionally trained horses look pretty uncomfortable when they are 'performing' - but this stuff is sold on the 'relationship' - and it's not so much the relationship but a considerable amount of high-end negative reinforcement and positive punishment that has got the horse to this point.

The bottom line is, as someone has already said, it IS the journey and not the destination - and I don't reckon this horse has enjoyed the journey too much   I don't care about what anyone can teach until I know how they teach it - and if it's done by making life hard for the horse when he doesn't do what is expected ... then for me that's not very inspiring.

The Agnes video ... now I see that as a much, much better example - there are far less stress and conflict behaviours shown, and the horse really seems to be enjoying a lot of what he does.  A much more enjoyable picture all round.    More Agnes and less Mikey I reckon 

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I am disapointed that you have no footage of vaulting picnic tables, lol, but as this type of thing is only done for effect then it is not really important in this context.


I am not fully au fait with the history of Mikey's horse Red Sun, but I have heard that he was a fairly difficult horse to manage before he became partnered with Mikey. This is par for the course with many horses which prove challenging, that often as a last resort, they are put in the hands of a NH trainer, a sort of last chance saloon if you will. This often means that the horse is not starting from a good place, and often has a past where many things have tried and failed. Quite what some horses experience up to this point may be speculated upon, but never really known.

However, I feel that you have a different view of the 'journey' than is actually the case. You cannot teach a horse with escallating pressure, and to do this would only thwart your aims in this form of training.

When someone takes their horse through the gate into the field and takes the head collar off, in many cases the horse will walk, trot or canter away into the field. How would you view this? Is it happily trotting off to join its mates or graze? Or is it getting away from you? I believe it is the latter. I want my horse to be a pest and not leave me alone when I release her into the field. Similarly when working at liberty I want her to stay with me not to express her dislike by leaving. You cannot force the horse to stay, and once the headcollar comes off, the glue that binds the horse to you is the relationship.

I feel it is generally accepted now, that horses communicate with pressure, often pressure so subtle we as observers with an untrained eye see little or none of the interactions until they become blatantly obvious, by this time in our language the horses are shouting at one another.

Therefore, consider how an animal so sensitve to the slightest  of pressure feels when a person sits on a horse or picks up a rein. Our weight on its back exerts pressure, mearly through the fact it is weight, without movement. There is pressure on the jaw from the bit, mearly because it is there, without the hands that exert pressure, often accentuated a hundred fold by clever, or stupid design. 

As we are using pressure to communicate, whether we understand that or not, pressure teaches the horse nothing. The horse learns through the release of pressure. It is the release that teaches, and rewarding the slightest try, by the horse. By releasing the pressure this teaches the horse to try again as the pressure goes away. Escalating the pressure will cause the massive reactions we see, when horses go bonkers through over pressurization and confusion.

I note that you use the term 'high end negative reinforment' and from the context, I take it you mean this as a derogatory statement. In essence the 'high end' part of the phrase means nothing, therefore it is irrelavant in the context you use. However, the 'negative reinforcement' is a perfectly good way of acheiving the training goal. You should not be negative about the word negative, as it does not have a negative meaning in this context.

The reinforcer when training horses is the release of pressure. The adverse stimulus is the application of pressure, the removal of the pressure when the horse trys is the removal of an adverse stimulus, therefore it is negative reinforcment. The horse quickly realizes this and trys quicker with less pressure, hence we acheive what we call softness. The failure to acheive this softness is not the fault of the horse but the fault of the handler, in applying too much pressure and releasing too slowly. Most horses are too quick for the average handler who needs to learn to up their game to be successful.

As most NH training is in an effort to encourage a behaviour and for the most part encourages the use of negative reinforcement, then positive punishment which involves the addition of an adverse stimulus in order to stop the behaviour occuring. The obvious example would be hitting a horse for some perceived misdemeanor. Personally I have never seen anything where this is advised within any NH training, so whether or not this has happened with Red Sun, I cannot comment, I feel it is extremely unlikely, but you would have to ask Mikey.


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## Tinypony (22 July 2011)

I do agree with you Tess, I wouldn't be looking for a horse to be like Red Sun.  But, Mikey is brave and he's dedicated and he doesn't think he is doing bad by his horse.  A lot of people like this evolve and change with time and that is a very old video, so who knows?  

I wouldn't look for videos of you jumping over picnic tables (wouldn't being on a horse help??) because you don't constantly claim that you do it.



tess1 said:



			well .... while Mikey may be a bloody good rider with his leaping over picnic tables and such (and no, palerider, before you ask, there are no youtube vids of me leaping over picnic tables, either with or without horses) I'm afraid I don't find the video 'amazing' because the horse shows a fair few stress and conflict behaviours - I hated the 'piaffe' in particular - it is so clear that this stuff has all been taught through escalating pressure and I don't believe that the horse is comfortable in his performance.  Now, that is not to say that a lot of conventionally trained horses look pretty uncomfortable when they are 'performing' - but this stuff is sold on the 'relationship' - and it's not so much the relationship but a considerable amount of high-end negative reinforcement and positive punishment that has got the horse to this point.

The bottom line is, as someone has already said, it IS the journey and not the destination - and I don't reckon this horse has enjoyed the journey too much   I don't care about what anyone can teach until I know how they teach it - and if it's done by making life hard for the horse when he doesn't do what is expected ... then for me that's not very inspiring.

The Agnes video ... now I see that as a much, much better example - there are far less stress and conflict behaviours shown, and the horse really seems to be enjoying a lot of what he does.  A much more enjoyable picture all round.    More Agnes and less Mikey I reckon 

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(I knew that "hats off" comment would provoke a reaction because I knew what I meant but wasn't really making it clear.  Couldn't be bothered going back to change it).


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## Morgan123 (22 July 2011)

tazzle said:



			I do not want my horse to stay with me because I make it harder for her when she leaves me !
		
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totally agree!! That's my whole problem with most of these NH schools I think....even if that dark chestnut horse (Red Sun was it) was really difficult - surely therefore he could have been trained in a way that reinforced him positively whihc might have made him happier? That is complete speculation becuase I have no idea of his history so i realise could backlash on me !!!!  But I have two horses who were difficult - one a rescue case and the other free becuase she is overly quirky and set in her ways about various things. The rescue case loves clicker training and has completely transformed, while the mare thinks CT is all a bit pathetic (actually she went off yawning and rolled last time i tried lol) - that doesn't stop me from positively reinforcing her in other ways though and she is so expressive and happy in herself now, everyone says it. Doesn't mean I can always make her do things she doens't want - we have to compromise ;-)!!! But it does mean that I understand how she's feeling and that I feel we have a very fair relationship with one another. I'd be worried if she looked as subdued as that horse. But still - as I said, I don't know that horse's history so I realise i'm judging on just one video which isn't totally fair.

Any other opinions on Tazzle's comment about the horse wanting to be with you but not because you make it difficult when it goes away? I'm quite interested in people's views on that.

BTW - thanks everyone for such an interesting and balanced thread, it's nice to discuss this realllllllly interesting topic without wild accusations and toys out of prams and everything and interesting to have everyone's different inputs!


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## Morgan123 (22 July 2011)

Pale Rider said:



			However, I feel that you have a different view of the 'journey' than is actually the case. You cannot teach a horse with escallating pressure, and to do this would only thwart your aims in this form of training.
.
		
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I'm confused about your comment about this - am i taking it out of context or something? Isn't parelli BASED on training with escallating pressure (if you don't get the response you want) whihc is then removed when you do get the right response? correct me if I'm wrong....


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## diamondrockharvey (22 July 2011)

Morgan123 said:



			Any other opinions on Tazzle's comment about the horse wanting to be with you but not because you make it difficult when it goes away? I'm quite interested in people's views on that.
		
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I practice Parelli and my horse is MAINLY in the Left brained Extrovert category. For those of you who are not familiar with this term he is confident, cocky and like to play games!
WHEN he leaves me, which used be fairly regular before I learnt how to be interesting enough for him I certainly would not put pressure on him or he would NEVER come back to me. In fact he would probably kick out at me or something similar!
I simply allow him to leave and then wait, then draw him back to me with my energy by walking backwards, return to the place we were just playing at and allow him to graze or have scratches so he knows that running away is fine, but being with me is even better.


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## team barney (22 July 2011)

Pale Rider said:



			I think its a bit disingenuous to suggest people who post videos on youtube are simply courting praise. I really think it is good that people feel confident enough to let everyone see how they have interpreted the training and how it is with their horses.

I for one am now definately going to get some of my trainng sessions filmed. 

For someone who has made much use of youtube in furthering their crusade against Parelli as you have, its a bit spineless not backing up your words, which have been many and very critical, to say the least.

I don't know if you have been telling lies about yourself and your abilities or not, but I think it says a lot about you personally, not wanting to show the folk you have crusaded against how you think things should be done.

My mind goes back to the youngster who posted how excited they were about having a lesson off a Parelli instructor and was subjected to a barrage of critism, of which you were part, so much critism in fact, she cancelled the lesson and appologised.

I hope people will take a bit less notice of your postings now as it does appear that you are a bit of a fraud.
		
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The videos I have posted have been those of Linda and Pat Parelli, purely as a visual of their work and training techniques.

As for the lady who cancelled her lesson, she did so off her own back after being advised (by many people not just myself) that Parelli wasn't the best idea for a nervous rescue pony who needed to build his confidence.

I am not trying to market myself or sell my own particular brand of training, I am not after a cult following and I don't see how proving myself is of any relevance to anything whatsoever.  I don't even have any video of myself jumping those heights, and with my fella partially retired now I am not going to get any, as despite being capable of jumping still I don't think he is upto it with me on board. I have a few pics but the are personal to me and I don't wish to splatter my face across the internet, or quite honestly his.

I have never tried to say I have all the answers, I just don't feel what Linda Parelli did to Barney, what Pat Parelli did to Catwalk, what was done to the little grey arabian mare, to name just a few, are examples of a "nice" form of training which is after all what Parelli claim to be.  

I don't approach my horses or confront my horses with aggression, I think it is a very dangerous game to play unless you are prepared to constantly assert your leadership, which I am not.

You are more than welcome to brand me a fraud, as I have said before I don't need to prove myself to the world, I know that I have done everything I have said I have done.


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## diamondrockharvey (22 July 2011)

I don't think Parelli claim to be a 'nice' form of training.
One of the philosophies is to be as gentle as possible but as firm as necessary.

Plus there is no aggression in Parelli - one of the things they teach is how to be firm and assertive without getting mean or mad.

They also put a HUGE emphasis on being neutral and friendly with your horse too!


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## intouch (22 July 2011)

Tinypony - just realised who you are - I bought my first Steve videos from you a few years ago!


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## team barney (22 July 2011)

diamondrockharvey said:



			I don't think Parelli claim to be a 'nice' form of training.
One of the philosophies is to be as gentle as possible but as firm as necessary.

Plus there is no aggression in Parelli - one of the things they teach is how to be firm and assertive without getting mean or mad.

They also put a HUGE emphasis on being neutral and friendly with your horse too!
		
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You don't have to raise your voice and appear angry to be aggressive, I found Linda Parelli's treatment of Barney to be very aggressive as was her treatment of the little grey arabian.  In my opinion Parelli's actions often don't tie in with their words.

I know Parelli's philosophy...
"There should be small consequences for small mistakes and big consequences for big mistakes"


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## team barney (22 July 2011)

padderpaws said:



			just an observation but I have never read of anyone objecting to traditional English trainers making a huge amount of money out of their training methods and equipment.  Why is it such a huge crime for some NH trainers to make money??????  What is wrong with marketing your art??? Trainers of any sort are not charities.
		
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Parelli are highly over priced but the money is not my issue with them.  In fact I think their high prices are a god send as it encourages people to explore different options.  I don't think there is a brilliant school of thought out there at present, but there are systems a hell of a lot fairer on the horse than Parelli.


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## diamondrockharvey (22 July 2011)

team barney said:



			In my opinion Parelli's actions often don't tie in with their words.
		
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I appreciate the way you feel, however as a student I can hand on heart say I follow the 'words' they teach and me and my horse have a great relationship without me having to ever get 'aggressive' or put on a lot of pressure. We have achieved our relationship through the phsycology I have learnt from Parelli, without the 'horsenality' information I don't think I would have ever discovered what makes him tick, and how I can cause him to do things for me and with me without having to use force or intimidation.

I also appreciate that a lot of 'Parelli students' may unfortunately mis interpret the information they are given and misuse the techniques and concepts. And ANY techniques, concepts and tools can be dangerous in the hands of someone who doesn't full understand how to use them!


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## Golf Girl (22 July 2011)

team barney said:



			Parelli are highly over priced but the money is not my issue with them.  In fact I think their high prices are a god send as it encourages people to explore different options.  I don't think there is a brilliant school of thought out there at present, but there are systems a hell of a lot fairer on the horse than Parelli.
		
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Which systems are those, can we have some names please?


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## Golf Girl (22 July 2011)

team barney said:



			You don't have to raise your voice and appear angry to be aggressive, I found Linda Parelli's treatment of Barney to be very aggressive as was her treatment of the little grey arabian.  In my opinion Parelli's actions often don't tie in with their words.

I know Parelli's philosophy...
"There should be small consequences for small mistakes and big consequences for big mistakes"
		
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As usual TB you take quotes out of context and try to imply a whole different meaning than was intended. Here is the full text of Parelli's Principle no. 5 'The attitude of justice is effective'




			The Four Phases are what help you to be just, to neither overreact nor under-react. There should be small consequences for small mistakes and big consequences for big mistakes. You just have to become savvy enough to know which is which, and to gain control over destructive emotions such as fear, frustration and anger. Horses respond to positive and negative reinforcement, but they dont understand punishment.
		
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## Morgan123 (22 July 2011)

DiamondRockHarvey - thanks for your explanaiton of making it nice for your horse to be with you and everything, v interesting (and nice to hear!). 

The thing I find interesting about parelli is you see these videos - and it tends to be the high level trainers, people who are level 4 and above and pat and linda themselves, whihc I find really uncomfrtable to watch. The horses don't look at all relaxed - quite the opposite. Then when you hear the students talking about the things they're encouraged ot do it all sounds relatively reasonable (though I disagree with some of the games and theory behind them but thats another story) and nice. So how does there get to be such a big discrepancy between the theoretical stuff that the sutdents say they do and then the stuff you see from the high level people?? Interesting.


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## diamondrockharvey (22 July 2011)

Morgan123 said:



			So how does there get to be such a big discrepancy between the theoretical stuff that the sutdents say they do and then the stuff you see from the high level people?? Interesting.
		
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I think that is the 'problem' with the spotlight performances that higher level students do.
Sometimes ego takes over and the relationship suffers for the sake of the performance, and this can be when the horse may look uncomfortable about what they are doing.
If you watch people's audition videos on youtube however you often see the horses are allowed to make mistakes, in fact it is encouraged that even if you make a mistake when you video your audition you still send it in as this then demonstrates how you are able to allow your horse to make mistakes and then shape them into something else positive. 
When the horses is never made to feel wrong they will offer you so much more and you can see that from their expression and the way they move their body!


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## fburton (22 July 2011)

Pale Rider said:



			I feel it is generally accepted now, that horses communicate with pressure, often pressure so subtle we as observers with an untrained eye see little or none of the interactions until they become blatantly obvious, by this time in our language the horses are shouting at one another.
		
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Yes, but not _solely_ with pressure. Communication between horses involves a lot more that simply pressure, and to reduce everything to pressure/release puts a slanted and limiting view on the possible interactions and training options available to us.


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## Pale Rider (22 July 2011)

fburton said:



			Yes, but not _solely_ with pressure. Communication between horses involves a lot more that simply pressure, and to reduce everything to pressure/release puts a slanted and limiting view on the possible interactions and training options available to us.
		
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True not soley pressure, but what other ways would you suggest?


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## Pale Rider (22 July 2011)

team barney said:



			Parelli are highly over priced but the money is not my issue with them.  In fact I think their high prices are a god send as it encourages people to explore different options.  I don't think there is a brilliant school of thought out there at present, but there are systems a hell of a lot fairer on the horse than Parelli.
		
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It is a fact that when interest in a product is raised in profile, say by a big marketing campaign, by a company, many smaller companies or individuals benefit by the increase in demand for the product. Cheaper options will benefit as certain consumers baulk at the higher prices and look for a bargain.

Whether or not people see the prices as too much is entirely subjective and a personal choice. Everything is priced though at what the market will stand, obviously things are selling at these prices as prices would drop if they weren't.

I think that the Parelli marketing campaign is good for the industry as a whole in generating buisness for other producers of similar equipment and people who provide similar training.

All this of course is a separate issue to horse training.


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## team barney (22 July 2011)

Golf Girl said:



			Which systems are those, can we have some names please?
		
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As I said I don't think there is a system out there at present that is brilliant.  None of the following are perfect, far from it, but in my opinion they are fairer on the horses than Parelli is...

Clicker training... Hempfling... Think Equus... to name but a few.


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## Pale Rider (22 July 2011)

team barney said:



			As I said I don't think there is a system out there at present that is brilliant.  None of the following are perfect, far from it, but in my opinion they are fairer on the horses than Parelli is...

Clicker training... Hempfling... Think Equus... to name but a few.
		
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Why do you think these systems are fairer?


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## team barney (22 July 2011)

Pale Rider said:



			Why do you think these systems are fairer?
		
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Parelli confuses horses into submission, the system is full of many mixed messages from an equine perspective.  For example the human's role in Parelli is that of the dominant partner, but Parelli teaches in one of there dvd's to let the horse touch you first.  
Perhaps others have observed differently but from my experience of herd dynamics the higher ranking horse always has first contact.
Also the carrot stick is used to both praise and punish, that keeps the horse in an eternal state of flux.  It acts a a kind of Jekyll and Hyde instrument and being faced with a tool of ever changing personalities creates insecurity in horses, which in turn creates compliance.  A human analogy would be a wife with an abusive husband who is incredibly nice when he isn't being nasty.  It is far easier to react if you know what the outcome is going to be.  Whether permanently nasty or permanently nice consistency creates confidence because at least you know where you stand.


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## Pale Rider (22 July 2011)

team barney said:



			Parelli confuses horses into submission, the system is full of many mixed messages from an equine perspective.  For example the human's role in Parelli is that of the dominant partner, but Parelli teaches in one of there dvd's to let the horse touch you first.  
Perhaps others have observed differently but from my experience of herd dynamics the higher ranking horse always has first contact.
Also the carrot stick is used to both praise and punish, that keeps the horse in an eternal state of flux.  It acts a a kind of Jekyll and Hyde instrument and being faced with a tool of ever changing personalities creates insecurity in horses, which in turn creates compliance.  A human analogy would be a wife with an abusive husband who is incredibly nice when he isn't being nasty.  It is far easier to react if you know what the outcome is going to be.  Whether permanently nasty or permanently nice consistency creates confidence because at least you know where you stand.
		
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Another 36 pages there I think. I am not going to take issue with this though obviously you have raised lots of discussion points in this post, and I think you are very wide of the mark here.

My question was why are these systems fairer? rather than why you feel Parelli is not.


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## lassiesuca (22 July 2011)

As I critique things, I'm always more than happy to share my videos, and more than happy for them to be critiqued . 

I'm a CT'er, so my videos predominantly feature me training my two young horses; please note most of these are training processes. I'm not one to hide how I train, because at the end of the day, I like to look at these things, after all the journey is more important than the destination, so I like to see how someone got there  


http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLB6EB4E504D912883


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## team barney (22 July 2011)

Pale Rider said:



			Another 36 pages there I think. I am not going to take issue with this though obviously you have raised lots of discussion points in this post, and I think you are very wide of the mark here.

My question was why are these systems fairer? rather than why you feel Parelli is not.
		
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Those system are in my opinion more horse friendly, they don't send mixed messages.  

I have seen horses started with Think Equus and they have been confident and interested in their surroundings.  I have seen people practising the theories too and they don't seem fixated on rushing their horses.  Their attitude seems to be the time it takes is the time it takes and any form coercion isn't going to help the situation along.  I like that attitude in horseman.

I have watched Klaus work and he offers the horse with questions that are clear, precise and presented in a straight forward manner.  He has also worked with some incredibly dangerous stallions without reverting to forceful behaviour.

Clicker training is praise based, if not done correctly some horses become fixated on the treat but if exacted with skill the horses learn without stress.  If you want to train your horse to do "tricks" clicker training is the least stressful method of doing this.


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## Pale Rider (22 July 2011)

team barney said:



			Those system are in my opinion more horse friendly, they don't send mixed messages.  

I have seen horses started with Think Equus and they have been confident and interested in their surroundings.  I have seen people practising the theories too and they don't seem fixated on rushing their horses.  Their attitude seems to be the time it takes is the time it takes and any form coercion isn't going to help the situation along.  I like that attitude in horseman.

I have watched Klaus work and he offers the horse with questions that are clear, precise and presented in a straight forward manner.  He has also worked with some incredibly dangerous stallions without reverting to forceful behaviour.

Clicker training is praise based, if not done correctly some horses become fixated on the treat but if exacted with skill the horses learn without stress.  If you want to train your horse to do "tricks" clicker training is the least stressful method of doing this.
		
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Even though you are keen on Think Equus, and I apreciate what you highlight about this,  these sentiments are also common to other NH trainers, 'Take the time it takes', 'Do less sooner'. As far as rushing horses goes, some need to be kept interested, so you need to progress quicker, others need more time, its all about reading the horse. What is a mistake is the handler becoming task orientated which leads to horses becoming drilled. Some posters on here have not found the same favour with Think Equus as you have, I have no opinion as I don't study it. Klaus is unconventional to say the least, whether you agree with some of his thoughts like, 'isolation concentrates the horses mind' is again a matter of choice, but not one I favour. As far as clicker training goes, I can see that this works well for some horses, others get fixated with the treat as you say and this creates a problem for the handler which would not need to be addressed if clicker training was not used on that horse. Also I feel there is massive confusion in the way people think about positive and negative reinforcment and positive and negative punishment.

I take issue with your assertion that Parelli 'confuses horses into submission, the system is full of many mixed messages from an equine perspective. For example the human's role in Parelli is that of the dominant partner'.

You are confusing dominance with leadership, to put it simplistically, and the analogy of the abusive husband is I feel irrelavant and erroneous, in the context of Parelli, colourful though it sounds.

To focus on the carrot stick is a mistake, yes it is used to praise, and to apply pressure, but not to punish. There are a myriad of reasons why handlers find a stick useful in training, but I feel the primary one is reach, even MR uses one with a glove on the end, you cannot make it more obvious than that.

You should not place too much emphasis on herd dynamics, we are not and should not consider pretending to be horses, the dynamics change radically when a human comes into the equasion.


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## leogeorge (23 July 2011)

How do you praise with a carrot stick?


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## Alyth (23 July 2011)

LOL  Rub!  How do you praise with your hand?  Rub.


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## Marydoll (23 July 2011)

Ive been following this thread with interest, and my personal feelings from reading the various replies and accounts is, different strokes for different folks 
I know some of the posts are looking for explanations about different interventions etc and if youre not for it you will look for reasons to dismiss/ find fault with what the others are saying, for whatever reason .
parelli is for some but not others, clicker is for some but not others, traditional is for some but not others, and each will support there corner, i dont think there are any rights or wrongs in this debate, use what works for you and youe horse and allow others to do the same


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## Alyth (23 July 2011)

The best thing Parelli did was list the keys,  principles, responsibilities and qualities.  Now if you don't know what they are you haven't even started to learn about his methods......If you do know what they are I am sure you wouldn't argue that any of them are wrong, or ignorant or abusive......They are basic to everything that every real horseman adheres to and abides by.  If you go against any one of those you need to improve your own horsemanship.  And that applies to everyone on this forum, and everyone we have refered to as a "horseman".


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## team barney (23 July 2011)

Pale Rider said:



			Even though you are keen on Think Equus
		
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I do not practise T.E. I only brought it up as I was asked what systems I thought kinder to horses.


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## team barney (23 July 2011)

Alyth said:



			The best thing Parelli did was list the keys,  principles, responsibilities and qualities.  Now if you don't know what they are you haven't even started to learn about his methods......If you do know what they are I am sure you wouldn't argue that any of them are wrong, or ignorant or abusive......They are basic to everything that every real horseman adheres to and abides by.  If you go against any one of those you need to improve your own horsemanship.  And that applies to everyone on this forum, and everyone we have refered to as a "horseman".
		
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I do know them, there are 8 principles, then the 4 responsibilities each for both horse and rider.

In my opinion the humans responsibility far outweighs that of the horses.

I disagree that justice is effective in establishing any form of relationship other than a dominance based relationship.

I also strongly disagree with horses responsibility to not act like a prey animal.  I want my horse to act like a prey animal because I want it to maintain it's intrinsic nature.  

I agree that humans should not act as predators, but in my opinion it goes against the very core of humanity to act in such a way.  I have never known even the most novice of horseman approach a horse in an openly predatory way.  Humans are hardly natural predators, without weapons we would never manage to kill anything.


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## Alyth (23 July 2011)

And the keys?  The first and most important key is "attitude" and that defines exactly how people get when they interact with a prey animal......


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## team barney (23 July 2011)

Alyth said:



			And the keys?  The first and most important key is "attitude" and that defines exactly how people get when they interact with a prey animal......
		
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Yes the 7 keys, keeping your attitude positive ect.

In my experience positivity and calm don't automatically make a stress free environment for the horse.  I agree you should stay collected but being in control of your emotions does not justify any and all action.  Parelli may advise staying calm, but they also advise upping the pressure.  Up to level 4 which I believe is described as 'to the bone' pressure.  
I don't believe in entering into what is effectively a physical screaming match with my horse.  If my horse isn't giving me the answer I am looking for I wait for the answer to be given, if it doesn't come I change how I ask rather than increase the pressure.

People beat horses with calm and positive attitudes, does the attitude make that justifiable?


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## Ibblebibble (23 July 2011)

do you know what strikes me every time there is a discussion about natural horsemanship? how 99% of the time it ends up being about Parelli against every other type of trainer! What is it about parelli that raises such strong feelings both from it's supporters and opposers?


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## team barney (23 July 2011)

Ibblebibble said:



			do you know what strikes me every time there is a discussion about natural horsemanship? how 99% of the time it ends up being about Parelli against every other type of trainer! What is it about parelli that raises such strong feelings both from it's supporters and opposers?
		
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The fact Parelli find it acceptable to strike a half blind horse round the face with a rope and metal clip may point toward some of the opposition.


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## Fellewell (23 July 2011)

Ibblebibble said:



			do you know what strikes me every time there is a discussion about natural horsemanship? how 99% of the time it ends up being about Parelli against every other type of trainer! What is it about parelli that raises such strong feelings both from it's supporters and opposers?
		
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I think perhaps it's Mr Parelli's supreme self belief that gets some peoples backs up. There was a video posted of him at a rodeo, he came off and faffed about but it was the expression on the face of the bloke waiting to ride that said it all for me. Yep, definitely a personality thing I'd say 
(put your guns down, I've never seen him train )


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## Golf Girl (23 July 2011)

Ibblebibble said:



			do you know what strikes me every time there is a discussion about natural horsemanship? how 99% of the time it ends up being about Parelli against every other type of trainer! What is it about parelli that raises such strong feelings both from it's supporters and opposers?
		
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It's the 'strong feelings' from its opposers that stir its supporters into defensive mode. The reality is that the Parelli Program is more comprehensive and accessible than anything available from any other NH paradigm.


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## fburton (23 July 2011)

Ibblebibble said:



			do you know what strikes me every time there is a discussion about natural horsemanship? how 99% of the time it ends up being about Parelli against every other type of trainer! What is it about parelli that raises such strong feelings both from it's supporters and opposers?
		
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One thing is its high visibility, I guess - largely due to the way it is promoted. For example, if you peruse YouTube, the majority of NH-related videos appear to be Parelli.

There may also be some truth in the claim that a sizeable subset of Parelli devotees consider PNH (and maybe PNH practitioners) to be superior to other kinds of horsemanship and practitioners, which may give the impression of zealotry amongst supporters - something which would naturally antagonize 'outsiders'. Let me hasten to say that I don't think anyone _here_ is like that! Indeed, there have been some shining counterexamples, like tongue~n~cheek, a paragon of patience and politeness (is she still around??). However, there have been reports of Parelli people in 'real life' being rather dogmatic and dismissive, which, if true, would tend to get people's backs up.

I suppose some people don't like the commercialism of the Parelli organization, including e.g. the cost of equipment and courses. I don't like commercialism myself either, but I doubt Parelli has a monopoly on that 'sin'!

Speaking personally, I find it both infuriating and saddening that certain practices as demonstrated by the top Parelli people are defended point blank with the clear implication that, if Pat and/or Linda are doing it, it must be right and okay. Obviously I'm thinking of Barney and Catwalk here.

There may be other explanations for the strong feelings surrounding Parelli. The above is what comes immediately to my mind.


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## tazzle (23 July 2011)

team barney said:



			The fact Parelli find it acceptable to strike a half blind horse round the face with a rope and metal clip may point toward some of the opposition.
		
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and I think that a lot of "nh" agree that this  it is unaccetable too .... and I am one that finds the extereme end of the pressure used by some nh practitioners very hard to watch ... I have physically left some demos. 

However I have seen apparently high levels used and the explanations given have made sense ... and has been applied fairly and the pressure release equally fairly ... and it not been a routine or lightly considered response or applied  to a "normal" horse "just because".


in NH, just like with "trad", there is a huuuuuuuuuuuge range of "lines in the sand" for humans . I have seen people do some pretty appauling stuff to horses  that is just plain and simple abuse as well as some things that I find "abusive" / unfair  but others might not. eg I do not go to shows because I find it hard not to want to go and remove spurs / bits / crops from humans using them in abusive manners. .. and I would never hit a horse to make it jump over some poles just so I can get a rosette.  But that is "common" practice.... go to any level show any weekend and you will see that. That is my "line in the sand".



yet my horse sometimes wears a rope halter and sometimes I might carry a carrot stick ...... which never impacts her except to rub her.... its just a pointing or flicky device  . People often make assumptions then about what I do and how I train based on a casual observation. .  Some assume I am causing pain and dominating my horse with both items, some assume I am a fluffy bunny that cannot ride and only do "circus tricks" with my horses. Neither are right    . 


I think we need to get away from the big names that perhaps go to extremes or that that have been seen to do abusive practices  and keep looking at the principles  / practices of the methodologies  that are in more common use. 

We might still come to the same conclusions that whatever method is not for each person ..... but we wont have poured the baby out with the bath water and maybe we can learn from each other.


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## talkinghorse (23 July 2011)

Tinypony said:



			Forgive me for being cynical, but so many people make claims about what they can do bareback and bridleless and at liberty, but we never see any proof.  Can anyone who isn't a nh student here just go out and video themselves one day doing some things like this.  Just to put their money where their mouths are?  
		
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Sue Palmer, one of Kelly Mark's Recommended Associates put this video of her riding her horse, in rehabilitation after injury, on You Tube in December 2009. http://youtu.be/hq3BsmidJX8


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## nicbarker (23 July 2011)

Tinypony, by coincidence I've started riding my horse without a bridle this summer - it started as a bet from a friend who does lots of NH (I don't - me and horse have hunted the last 7 seasons instead!).  

What I found is that with a horse whom I already have a good relationship with, its pretty straightforward to ride without a bridle. The first time (back in May) we went in the school, next time round the farm and now I mostly ride him without a bridle - the footage from a couple of days ago jumping is here:

http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2011/07/feel-good-friday-film.html

No "NH techniques" used, by the way ;-)


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## Ibblebibble (23 July 2011)

tazzle said:



			I think we need to get away from the big names that perhaps go to extremes or that that have been seen to do abusive practices  and keep looking at the principles  / practices of the methodologies  that are in more common use. 

We might still come to the same conclusions that whatever method is not for each person ..... but we wont have poured the baby out with the bath water and maybe we can learn from each other.
		
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i think and would hope that we would come to the conclusion that there is no 'one suit all' method 

fburton, very well put post, i think it's the zealotry around parelli that puts me off first and foremost, blind belief is never a good thing. 
With all of these big demos it never fails to make me wonder how conducive to any training method a big arena full of whooping excited fans is!


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## Unbeliever (23 July 2011)

Completely off the wall, I came across an observation from an American trainer a couple of weeks ago. Basically he put it like this.
A "traditional" (am not happy with the expression, but can't think of another) requires the horse to learn human language. A NH learns the horses language.
Either way, once the language has been taught, or learned it will work. It just seems to me that if we take the trouble to learn the horses language, we will be able to communicate with most horses instead of having to "teach" every horse our language.
It's a bit like going to Spain & not bothering to learn any Spanish in my opinion. If they don't understand, you just say it louder?


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## tazzle (23 July 2011)

Ibblebibble said:



			i think and would hope that we would come to the conclusion that there is no 'one suit all' method 

of course 

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## Golf Girl (23 July 2011)

tazzle said:





Ibblebibble said:



			i think and would hope that we would come to the conclusion that there is no 'one suit all' method 

of course 

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... and neither is there any one method which is 'all bad'


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## tazzle (23 July 2011)

Golf Girl said:



			... and neither is there any one method which is 'all bad' 

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of course too


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