# Can a horse compete at top level after kissing spines surgery?



## 007Equestrian (2 September 2018)

So to update on my earlier post  my mare of a lifetime has just been diagnosed with kissing spines. We now face the awful decision of the injections, surgery or retirement.

To put into context she is a 16h draught cross currently competing successfully at Inter 1 dressage. (I previously said gelding as I am aware of some nosy previous coaches who may know this account). She is so talented and could go to Grand Prix and has never had a lame day in her life until now. However she is 14 and I've not read any reports of horses doing more than hacking after the surgery. She is totally sound on the lunge.

If she could successfully rehab from the surgery and lead a competitive life moving up the grades I would bite the bullet and pay for it. However, I am NOT just going to inject the area to numb it and continue to compete, as she owes me nothing and I wouldn't risk her future health by doing this.

If she will do no more than hacking after the surgery then I would retire her and inject to keep her comfortable while possibly put her in foal if the vet agreed that was an option. 

I basically want to do the right thing for her. She is my horse of a lifetime and I want her to be happy even if that means being a lawnmower. Does anyone know if it's possible to come back from the surgery and compete at a high level or would I be better just making her comfortable? What an awful day


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## paddi22 (2 September 2018)

Which and how may spines were touching? I have one with kissing spine who got the injections and happily events away, and hes sixteen


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## 007Equestrian (2 September 2018)

paddi22 said:



			Which and how may spines were touching? I have one with kissing spine who got the injections and happily events away, and hes sixteen
		
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I'm not sure which ones were touching but there was three or four either touching or very close. They are right under her saddle.


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## asmp (2 September 2018)

I'm sure, while watching Burley yesterday,  that Tina Cook said her ride had had kissing spines.  I commented to my daughter that it was pretty impressive that the horse could still compete at that level.


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## be positive (2 September 2018)

That was a fast diagnosis and on a Sunday, your vets must be extremely efficient to come out today, do a full workup to find where the lameness was coming from and to xray the back, 

I would have thought if it is only a few just touching it would be worth looking at the options before going for surgery, injections and a careful physio based rehab would be worth trying first as it has only just started to cause issues.


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## be positive (2 September 2018)

asmp said:



			I'm sure, while watching Burley yesterday,  that Tina Cook said her ride had had kissing spines.  I commented to my daughter that it was pretty impressive that the horse could still compete at that level.
		
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She did say that, I expect there are many competing with a few touching and with very careful work they are kept comfortable enough to compete, she also said he was difficult to keep sound and it seemed he had to be very carefully managed,  to get round within the time was a real credit to the team involved.


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## Red-1 (3 September 2018)

Something does not sound right here. Your horse was going well, schooling wonderfully, then was shod, then only lame after 10 minutes of canter...


Now has close spine processes and needs an operation?? 


I think you would find many perfectly sound horses have close processes, and you are not even sure if any of yours are touching or not?


I would first attend to the feet (either off or re-fitted with lower nails). Then give a month off, then re-assess with new shoes. 

An injection into the back is not just to numb it, it is also an anti inflammatory. If the shoeing caused the horse to move in an abnormal way, then the back may simply be inflamed. So, if the vet is concerned about the back then injections may be the way to start.

Finally, if you are not happy with what your vet advises, I would get a second opinion. If you are basically happy with the vet surgery itself, then that could simply be from another vet in the same practice. Some vets are great with horses, not so good at explaining.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (3 September 2018)

be positive said:



			That was a fast diagnosis and on a Sunday, your vets must be extremely efficient to come out today, do a full workup to find where the lameness was coming from and to xray the back,
		
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Very!

OP, which country are you in?


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## 007Equestrian (3 September 2018)

Red-1 said:



			Something does not sound right here. Your horse was going well, schooling wonderfully, then was shod, then only lame after 10 minutes of canter...


Now has close spine processes and needs an operation?? 


I think you would find many perfectly sound horses have close processes, and you are not even sure if any of yours are touching or not?


I would first attend to the feet (either off or re-fitted with lower nails). Then give a month off, then re-assess with new shoes. 

An injection into the back is not just to numb it, it is also an anti inflammatory. If the shoeing caused the horse to move in an abnormal way, then the back may simply be inflamed. So, if the vet is concerned about the back then injections may be the way to start.

Finally, if you are not happy with what your vet advises, I would get a second opinion. If you are basically happy with the vet surgery itself, then that could simply be from another vet in the same practice. Some vets are great with horses, not so good at explaining.
		
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Yes we definitely just (perhaps naively) blindly followed the vets advice! There are definitely 3-4 vertebrae touching. I wasn't able to see the X Ray myself as I was stuck in work until late, however my dad went and saw this.

The vet lunged her and noticed that she was a little lame behind, then when ridden she got worse to the point where she was lame on all four legs.

We've noticed a significant drop in performance (tiring quickly and lacking impulsion) for about 1-2 months (which we put down to low red blood cells as seen in her blood test). However yes the lameness only started since being an issue since the farrier.

Taking her shoes off will be something we do anyway as her workload will completely drop. She is also quite bad to shoe with her back legs (snatches them away), is this a sign of kissing spines?


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## 007Equestrian (3 September 2018)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			Very!

OP, which country are you in?
		
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Ireland! He is very good at seeing us the same day that an issue arises normally.


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## ycbm (3 September 2018)

007Equestrian said:



			To put into context she is a 16h draught cross currently competing successfully at Inter 1 dressage. (I previously said gelding as I am aware of some nosy previous coaches who may know this account).
		
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You've been writing about this horse as male for a couple of years. Why change now?

Did you get the vet out for the lameness after ten minutes canter and get the kissing spines diagnosis?  Have they taken x rays? What do they show?


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## 007Equestrian (3 September 2018)

ycbm said:



			You've been writing about this horse as male for a couple of years. Why change now?

Did you get the vet out for the lameness after ten minutes canter and get the kissing spines diagnosis?  Have they taken x rays? What do they show?
		
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Because of the option of retiring and breeding from her! I was going to make a new account but thought that might have looked dodgy. Trust me, I wish with all my heart this wasn't happening 

Yes, my dad took her and he isn't the most clued in about horses but a friend kindly rode her for the vet. She lunged with slight outside hind leg weakness then when ridden it got much worse until she was lame on all four legs is what the vet says. He x rayed her and the X Ray (which I haven't been emailed yet but dad saw) had three or four vertebrae touching.


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## ycbm (3 September 2018)

I'd say since her reaction is so little, that you've a very good chance of injections and a program of remedial work working out very well. The injections only numb temporarily, the main effect is anti inflammatory. 

I'm very surprised that you didn't choose to go to the vet with her yourself, but sent her with your dad and a friend. Why didn't you just wait until you were available and your vet wouldn't be charging Sunday rates?


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## 007Equestrian (3 September 2018)

ycbm said:



			I'd say since her reaction is so little, that you've a very good chance of injections and a program of remedial work working out very well. The injections only numb temporarily, the main effect is anti inflammatory. 

I'm very surprised that you didn't choose to go to the vet with her yourself, but sent her with your dad and a friend. Why didn't you just wait until you were available and your vet wouldn't be charging Sunday rates?
		
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I just did what I thought was best for her, I didn't want her in any more pain and I would have had to pay an evening fee anyway which would have been the same price. Honestly this is breaking my heart, I just came onto the forum for advice because I've never experienced this and now I feel awful


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## ycbm (3 September 2018)

Why do you feel awful?  Most of the advice has been that she probably won't need an operation and you should go for the injections. But as you've found, there is no substitute for being there and seeing what the vet sees at the time they see it and discussing it at the time.

I don't understand your 'in any more pain' comment? Only days before you posted this you wrote about her as a horse which went slightly lame after ten minutes of cantering. You can hardly be surprised that people are confused


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## ihatework (3 September 2018)

I think the general opinion about KS surgery are that the success rates increase dramatically if there are no other lameness issues.

So my first step would be to establish what else you are dealing with lameness wise.
You would likely want a decent performance vet to systematically work through blocking various areas whilst you ride.

No point jumping into extensive KS rehab if you are going to compound another issue.


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## Tiddlypom (3 September 2018)

Were any nerve blocks done during the exam? If so, where?


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## 007Equestrian (3 September 2018)

ycbm said:



			Why do you feel awful?  Most of the advice has been that she probably won't need an operation and you should go for the injections. But as you've found, there is no substitute for being there and seeing what the vet sees at the time they see it and discussing it at the time.

I don't understand your 'in any more pain' comment? Only days before you posted this you wrote about her as a horse which went slightly lame after ten minutes of cantering. You can hardly be surprised that people are confused
		
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Yes unfortunately my job has stopped me being there during vet opening times so I'm just trying to do my best. I'm sorry if I haven't been coherent, it's been a shock to the system to say the least that she was happily working two weeks ago (to my knowledge she didn't display any lameness) and now my vet is suggesting surgery. I feel awful because I'm getting the vibes that everyone either doesn't believe me or is doubting my care for my horse. I didn't want to wait until this weekend when I could be there in person because I wanted to get it sorted and I thought it might have been a muscle or tendon strain, which it has been proven to not be. I'm just trying my best


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## 007Equestrian (3 September 2018)

ihatework said:



			I think the general opinion about KS surgery are that the success rates increase dramatically if there are no other lameness issues.

So my first step would be to establish what else you are dealing with lameness wise.
You would likely want a decent performance vet to systematically work through blocking various areas whilst you ride.

No point jumping into extensive KS rehab if you are going to compound another issue.
		
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Thank you for your advice. I'm relying on my basic knowledge and what my vet told me, but this sounds like a good idea and seems logical. I'll try to research the best vets in Ireland that would offer this, it's a minefield! I'm just so lost as to what to do to help her, she deserves the best


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## 007Equestrian (3 September 2018)

Tiddlypom said:



			Were any nerve blocks done during the exam? If so, where?
		
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No nerve blocks were done (and to be completely honest, I naively believed nerve blocks could only be done in the legs until it was suggested here). It was diagnosed just from the X Ray.

Are there any areas I should suggest be blocked?


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## SpringArising (3 September 2018)

007Equestrian said:



			I'm just trying my best 

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That's very obvious to see. When, how, and who you send your horse to the vet with is no one's business but your own. You don't have to answer to anyone on here!


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## 007Equestrian (3 September 2018)

SpringArising said:



			That's very obvious to see. When, how, and who you send your horse to the vet with is no one's business but your own. You don't have to answer to anyone on here!
		
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Thank you so much  It sounds pathetic but I've been in tears over this because I feel such bad guilt over not doing the right thing by her  She's honestly my best friend and I just want to make the right decision for her.


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## Hormonal Filly (3 September 2018)

So sorry to hear this. Mind there is a crazy fact like 60% of all ridden horses (may be slightly different figure but its big) have kissing spine but many don&#8217;t ever get diagnosed. 

Before you do anything now I&#8217;d ask the vet to check for secondary symptoms so you have a clear image. They can do more damage than the kissing spine itself. Get flexion tests on hocks, fetlocks or if insured the best would be a MRI to see if hes over compensated on any other joint as of the pain etc. 

I only say this as my old mare had KS and muscle damage in her back, we operated on her back. It was operated on due to the fact it was quiet severe KS and she was not a older horse, and in a HUGE amount of pain with it. If she was older and depending how severe the KS was, I may of gone for injections. 
Operation went okay and box rest for months then I started to do rehab. Physio was out every other week, she started going lame again and was diagnosed with chronic arthritis in her hocks which was medicated (box rest again). Rebab started again then she wasn&#8217;t right, looked poor etc, diagnosed with severe ulcers, treated (which was expensive) then she went lame again. My vet said it could have been a number of issues from over compensating and she&#8217;d need a MRI to see the full picture ideally. My insurance was maxed out, I could of taken her back in for more tests but decided she was so unhappy in herself, even on bute and in the vets so often it just wasn't fair.  I turned her away for 3 months to see how she got on and had her put to sleep after that time, she was only 9. It wasn't her back that was the problem in the end, it was all the secondary symptoms from over compensating for so many years.

A friend had a lovely 11yr old cob, he was diagnosed with kissing spine and then they operated and it wasn&#8217;t until they rehabbed him they realised he had arthritis everywhere. He was also put to sleep because they couldn&#8217;t keep him pain free.

Lots of horses do come right, there is an excellent group on facebook called &#8216;horses with kissing spine&#8217; which helped me through the toughest times. Best of luck, but (just my opinion) I&#8217;d get the full picture first so you know what you&#8217;re dealing with as a whole.


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## 007Equestrian (4 September 2018)

Aimeetess said:



			So sorry to hear this. Mind there is a crazy fact like 60% of all ridden horses (may be slightly different figure but its big) have kissing spine but many don&#8217;t ever get diagnosed. 

Before you do anything now I&#8217;d ask the vet to check for secondary symptoms so you have a clear image. They can do more damage than the kissing spine itself. Get flexion tests on hocks, fetlocks or if insured the best would be a MRI to see if hes over compensated on any other joint as of the pain etc. 

I only say this as my old mare had KS and muscle damage in her back, we operated on her back. It was operated on due to the fact it was quiet severe KS and she was not a older horse, and in a HUGE amount of pain with it. If she was older and depending how severe the KS was, I may of gone for injections. 
Operation went okay and box rest for months then I started to do rehab. Physio was out every other week, she started going lame again and was diagnosed with chronic arthritis in her hocks which was medicated (box rest again). Rebab started again then she wasn&#8217;t right, looked poor etc, diagnosed with severe ulcers, treated (which was expensive) then she went lame again. My vet said it could have been a number of issues from over compensating and she&#8217;d need a MRI to see the full picture ideally. My insurance was maxed out, I could of taken her back in for more tests but decided she was so unhappy in herself, even on bute and in the vets so often it just wasn't fair.  I turned her away for 3 months to see how she got on and had her put to sleep after that time, she was only 9. It wasn't her back that was the problem in the end, it was all the secondary symptoms from over compensating for so many years.

A friend had a lovely 11yr old cob, he was diagnosed with kissing spine and then they operated and it wasn&#8217;t until they rehabbed him they realised he had arthritis everywhere. He was also put to sleep because they couldn&#8217;t keep him pain free.

Lots of horses do come right, there is an excellent group on facebook called &#8216;horses with kissing spine&#8217; which helped me through the toughest times. Best of luck, but (just my opinion) I&#8217;d get the full picture first so you know what you&#8217;re dealing with as a whole.
		
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Really? That's a massive number of horses! Thank you so much for your advice, I think ringing up the specialist is next on our priority list. Its so hard to know what to ask for and what are the key areas that need checked out, as we're completely new to this. She had the basic flexion tests done (like in a vetting) but we will definitely get some xrays done. My bank balance is already crying but she's worth it


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## 007Equestrian (5 October 2018)

*An Update for anyone who may be interested*

We decided to send her to a specialist for a secondary opinion. He assessed her on the ground and then decided to go with the ligament snip operation. He did six 'snips' and was very pleased with how the operation went. Even though she is only two weeks post-op I've noticed a massive difference in her general mood and energy levels - she's gone from lazy and lethargic (which I assumed to be her personality!) to trying her best to canter off if I'm not quite firm with her! We're in the midst of rehab now, six weeks or so (basing on how she feels and our physio's opinion it may be longer) of walking starting just in-hand. She gets her stitches out tomorrow and will then begin long reining in walk first 'naked' and then building up to long reining or whole-school lunging in walk in the equi ami. She seems so much more settled and happy and I really hope we made the right decision for her!


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## Pinkvboots (5 October 2018)

007Equestrian said:



			Yes unfortunately my job has stopped me being there during vet opening times so I'm just trying to do my best. I'm sorry if I haven't been coherent, it's been a shock to the system to say the least that she was happily working two weeks ago (to my knowledge she didn't display any lameness) and now my vet is suggesting surgery. I feel awful because I'm getting the vibes that everyone either doesn't believe me or is doubting my care for my horse. I didn't want to wait until this weekend when I could be there in person because I wanted to get it sorted and I thought it might have been a muscle or tendon strain, which it has been proven to not be. I'm just trying my best 

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Hey don't beat yourself up you did what was best for you at the time, not everyone can be where they want when they want life and work does often dictate that so just focus on the information you have been given.

I have no experience of kissing spines but it sounds like there is a lot that can be done, and I really hope it's a good outcome for you.


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## Pinkvboots (5 October 2018)

007Equestrian said:



			*An Update for anyone who may be interested*

We decided to send her to a specialist for a secondary opinion. He assessed her on the ground and then decided to go with the ligament snip operation. He did six 'snips' and was very pleased with how the operation went. Even though she is only two weeks post-op I've noticed a massive difference in her general mood and energy levels - she's gone from lazy and lethargic (which I assumed to be her personality!) to trying her best to canter off if I'm not quite firm with her! We're in the midst of rehab now, six weeks or so (basing on how she feels and our physio's opinion it may be longer) of walking starting just in-hand. She gets her stitches out tomorrow and will then begin long reining in walk first 'naked' and then building up to long reining or whole-school lunging in walk in the equi ami. She seems so much more settled and happy and I really hope we made the right decision for her!
		
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I have just seen your update so pleased for you I really hope she improves and it sounds like you totally did the right thing, please keep us updated on her progress.


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## ester (6 October 2018)

It's not an op I've heard of anyone having success with as yet so it will be interesting to know if yours keeps improving.


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## Hormonal Filly (8 October 2018)

Join the 'kissing spine' group on Facebook. The ligament snip is getting more popular and very successful, and there are lots on there who have gone through what you're going through and will be endless help, advice and a shoulder to cry on if needed   They were great when I needed some.


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## sport horse (15 October 2018)

I know that one of the horses in the last 25 of the World Equestrian Games Show Jumping has had KS surgery.


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## 007Equestrian (2 December 2020)

Just thought I'd pop on here in case anyone was researching for their own horses in the future. My mare steadily improved, competing at Inter-1 at the Nationals a year (to the day!) of her surgery after lots of steady rehab. In hand for 3 months, ridden walk for 1 month, small amounts of trot and canter over the next two months, did her PSG & Inter-1 qualifiers in summer 2019 and is now competing at Grand Prix as of December 2020 (although not been to many in-person shows due to covid). There is hope! Her physio can't get over how much better she's holding and carrying herself at 16 and says she looks like a different horse.


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