# Crufts 2016



## satinbaze (24 February 2016)

So following on from the Westminster thread I thought I would start a Crufts thread. Who is taking a dog, who is going to watch and your tip for the top.
I'm taking Tiva on gundog day look for Blacktoft Quickstep of Satinbaze in the catalogue. I'm also going to watch the Scottish terriers as a friend has her puppy there. 
My tip for the top is very unclear this year as there have been no standout winners in the past year. I think I will go for a pointer in the gundog group and I have a feeling a bulldog will go best in show.


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## ponyparty (24 February 2016)

satinbaze said:



			So following on from the Westminster thread I thought I would start a Crufts thread. Who is taking a dog, who is going to watch and your tip for the top.
I'm taking Tiva on gundog day look for Blacktoft Quickstep of Satinbaze in the catalogue. I'm also going to watch the Scottish terriers as a friend has her puppy there. 
My tip for the top is very unclear this year as there have been no standout winners in the past year. I think I will go for a pointer in the gundog group and I have a feeling a bulldog will go best in show.
		
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I'm hoping to go on Terrier & Hound day - I want to watch the Manchester Terriers, specifically our Frank's breeder with his brother and sister, and their other dog, (and his dad's breeder - his dad won best in breed there last year!). 
Plus I want to go all around Discover Dogs, talk dog, and daydream about dogs I can't have... I fell in love with a Hovawart last year, but OH said not allowed (too big and too hairy)  will just have to settle for another MT eh 
Oh and will also be spending money I don't really have on pressies for Frank... I saw some really cool doggy puzzles there last year, perfect for exercising that busy terrier brain!

Best of luck with your dog, OP, hope you do well and have a fun day


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## blackcob (24 February 2016)

I'm handling my mum's cocker spaniel on the Friday, first time at Crufts for owner, handler and dog. He's also her first cocker and the first dog she's ever groomed. We are alternately thrilled and terrified. 

I will be keeping an eye on the big screens for the large novice ABC agility as this is what I am so desperately aiming for with Dax, she had some clears in the quals last year and at present is running better than ever, we're going to have one last shot at qualifying this year before she's too old and creaky. I think a YKC agility handler might be running a sibe this year, can't remember where I read it, would be great to see if so. 

Our agility instructor is also in the medium teams, they've won it many times before, if I can make it across I'll be cheering them on again.


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## godfreyy (24 February 2016)

I'm there on the Friday with my HWHV boys!


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## Cahill (24 February 2016)

i am going for my first time on the saturday.
looking forward to seeing rotts and sbt`s  and i also love gsd`s.
i am taking my dogs collar measurments for if i see something nice to buy for them and want to watch lots of agility


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## Britestar (24 February 2016)

I will be there from Wednesday working. 12/13 hr days. Looking forward to it.


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## Luci07 (24 February 2016)

Cahill said:



			i am going for my first time on the saturday.
looking forward to seeing rotts and sbt`s  and i also love gsd`s.
i am taking my dogs collar measurments for if i see something nice to buy for them and want to watch lots of agility 

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Look out for my friends novice SBT bitch..Fernhill Nova. My friend is heavily involved in rescue as well. They didn't expect to qualify but little Fern has done it!


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## PucciNPoni (24 February 2016)

I'm there (in theory) with my min poodle bitch so long as she isn't in season (She's over due now).  But I will be there regardless with her littermate and my pal who owns him.   So if Alice decides that she's going to come in to season I'll have a wander round and go find the agility rings to see if any my fellow club members are about.   Also will be along to support the poodle rescue PNUK.  

Tips for the top - I don't really have any.  But I'm rooting for James the Gordon Setter (Lourdace Fulcrum) and Lee Cox and his wee toy bitch Star.  Star was Group 3 last year and James was BOB.


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## Cahill (24 February 2016)

how long does it take to walk around ?
(or is that a silly question? )


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## PucciNPoni (24 February 2016)

Cahill said:



			how long does it take to walk around ?
(or is that a silly question? )
		
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how fast do you walk? lol

Seriously though it's all down to what you want to see and whether you want to shop, eat, use the loo (which btw, takes a ridiculously long time so plan well ahead).  

You could easily get a four day pass and still  not see everything.  Especially if you spend time ringside watching the breed classes, displays, agility, fly ball and all the interactive stuff.  BUt if you just go and shop, you might cover it in a day.


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## druid (24 February 2016)

Dog's gone lame so BASC/game keepers ring for us this year  Good luck all!


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## Clodagh (25 February 2016)

druid said:



			Dog's gone lame so BASC/game keepers ring for us this year  Good luck all!
		
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That is a shame and I hope dog is soon better.

Satinbaze - you must get a flatcoat in the working bit, would be great to see.


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## Alec Swan (25 February 2016)

I know nothing about 'showing' (clearly! :redface3,  but are there any classes or sections for gundogs where the dogs have to achieve,  if not a qualification,  then at least some sort of certification that they show a willingness or an ability to support their ancestry and the purpose of the breed concerned?  The same question could apply to some of the guarding breeds which are now used for either obedience competition or 'sport' of some sort,  TD work for instance?

There's some requirement for some horses,  I believe,  (would they be PTP-ers?) where they need a letter of support to show that the animal's hunted and from a MH.

I'll admit to rather wandering about in the dark with this one! 

Alec.


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## MurphysMinder (25 February 2016)

There are the Gamekeepers classes for working gundogs as mentioned above where the dogs have to have worked in the last 12 months,  I think they also have field trials classes.   I think in most cases the dogs are not show dogs as such though.  I don't know about gundogs but GSDs and I imagine other working breeds,  have a Special Working class at Crufts.  You have to have a working trials qualification to enter these but in these cases the dog is more likely to have been shown in the breed ring too.


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## satinbaze (25 February 2016)

Satinbaze - you must get a flatcoat in the working bit, would be great to see.[/QUOTE]


Tivas sister will be in the gamekeepers classes as well as the main breed classes.


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## Clodagh (25 February 2016)

So really like a higher class version of a terrier show, my OH has got a pile of certificates from years back where the huntsman certified that the dog had been entered to fox. I don't know if that still happens.


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## Clodagh (25 February 2016)

satinbaze said:



			Satinbaze - you must get a flatcoat in the working bit, would be great to see.
		
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Tivas sister will be in the gamekeepers classes as well as the main breed classes.[/QUOTE]


Good news. I presume flatcoats are not in two distinct camps in looks, unlike labs and spaniels?


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## satinbaze (25 February 2016)

Working trials classes are only scheduled for GSD, border collie, Doberman and I think Rottweiler. Dogs have to have qualified UDex in working trials. The border collie classes are quite well supported but not so in other breeds. 

In flatcoats the working gundog classes (for dogs that are used as picking up dogs or have at least a COM at a field trial) are well supported as we are still thankfully considered a dual purpose breed and many show dogs also work in the field, unlike a lot of other gundog breeds that have 2 distinct types. 
Druid - I hope your dog is better soon


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## MurphysMinder (25 February 2016)

Good to hear there are still plenty of dual purpose flat coats .  It's a shame that the KC won't accept an IPO qualification for working classes as I think this is what many GSD folk do now .  I bet quite a few of the dogs in the open breed class will have an IPO qualification . I remember years ago having a GSD bitch qualified to run in both agility finals and the breed ring, but she wasn't eligible for the working class


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## Alec Swan (25 February 2016)

Thank you for that M_M,  and I think that it's all to the good.  Show dogs and Work dogs,  breed dependent,  will often have apparent differences,  but I remain certain that all work breeds would benefit from at least attempting to maintain a link with their working history.

Alec.


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## blackcob (25 February 2016)

A dog is eligible for entry in Special Working Gundog classes for
its Breed if it has a Working Gundog Certificate, a Kennel Club Show Gundog Working Certificate
or won an award, Diploma of Merit or Certificate of Merit in competition at a Field Trial held under
the rules of any governing body recognised by the Kennel Club.
		
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Though as above in some breeds with a big split in type the entry numbers are vanishingly small.

A working class for sibes would be extremely interesting in terms of the split in breed type, the club offers a dual championship title but not working/racing classes.


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## sam-b (25 February 2016)

Im going on Thursday, grooming for trainer who is in a large agility team.


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## Llanali (25 February 2016)

I'll be there on Sunday with two and a couple more from my breeding. I don't have any tips, but I think the saluki that won the hound group last year will win our breed again


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## PucciNPoni (25 February 2016)

I think there are a lot of folk who do get dual titles on their dogs - ie Ch in the breed rings and then Field Champs as well.  I think there is something similar for working breeds too?  

In the breed rings there also classes for good citizen qualified dogs -and of course then any dog can compete (if qualified) in agility/ fly ball/ obedience.  

I have been fully encouraged by the breed folk to do agility too, and the agility people in my club want to see her out competing in full show coat.  

I think the versatility of the British show dog is fab - no not everyone does dual purpose activities with their dogs but many do.


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## Lakota_Lizzie (25 February 2016)

We are going on Friday, although my bitch is currently hopping lame, after a mid chase collision with another of our dogs! We have Welsh Springer Spaniels. Entered in breed classes and working/gamekeeper classes! Very excited. Good luck to all competing xx


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## druid (25 February 2016)

Working/Gamekeeper classes sponsored by BASC are for working gun dogs who are NOT eigible for the breed rings - one set are for dogs owned by bona fide gamekeepers and one are for working dogs which have letters/signatures from gamekeepers proving the dog worked on a shoot in the previous season. There's separate classes for ESS, Labradors, other retrievers and other spaniels and possibly one for HPRs? The spaniel and HPR classes are poorly supported due to the docking laws.


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## druid (25 February 2016)

satinbaze said:



			Druid - I hope your dog is better soon
		
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He'll be fine - turns out he had dislocated a toe!


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## Clodagh (25 February 2016)

Lakota_Lizzie said:



			We are going on Friday, although my bitch is currently hopping lame, after a mid chase collision with another of our dogs! We have Welsh Springer Spaniels. Entered in breed classes and working/gamekeeper classes! Very excited. Good luck to all competing xx
		
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My mum wants a Welsh springer! Funnily she was only complaining today that you never see them now, and you are only up the road. She doesn't need it now, her old dog is hale and hearty yet but then the time comes I may be chasing you.


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## Lakota_Lizzie (26 February 2016)

Clodagh said:



			My mum wants a Welsh springer! Funnily she was only complaining today that you never see them now, and you are only up the road. She doesn't need it now, her old dog is hale and hearty yet but then the time comes I may be chasing you.
		
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I have no idea why they are a minor breed, a tad harder to train than our working Cockers yes, but such warm hearted loving dogs. They have a reputation for being velcro dogs! I wouldn't have anything else. We work and show ours so they are good dual purpose animals! There are a few round this way, both pets and breeders.


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## Lakota_Lizzie (26 February 2016)

We are eligible to show in both breed classes and BASC/keeper classes. My bitch qualified for her breed class and as she is Gamekeeper owned and regularly worked she can compete in the other classes too. To enter these classes you do not have to have qualified for your breed class. Its all in the schedule, and fr our breed we are not the only ones doing both breed and working classes. Sadly one of our dogs is docked so he cannot come along which is a real pitty.


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## Alec Swan (26 February 2016)

Lakota_Lizzie said:



			We are eligible to show in both breed classes and BASC/keeper classes. &#8230;&#8230;.. . Sadly one of our dogs is docked so he cannot come along which is a real pitty.
		
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And therein lays the lunacy that a dog which has been docked,  within the legal requirements,  cannot be shown at a venue where the public pay to enter,  which would have us consider that if entrance to a show was free of charge,  then the dog could be entered and shown.  Is there anyone on here who has a sufficient level of understanding of the KC,  or has had previous input,  who can explain what would appear to be a level of reasoning which few manage to understand?

Alec.


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## blackcob (26 February 2016)

It's nothing to do with the KC, they oppose the showing ban. The decision was Defra's, with the intention that it would reduce the numbers of non-working dogs being docked.


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## Feathered (26 February 2016)

Going but just mainly to shop and spoil my little spaniel. Want to watch lots of agility too as we're taking it up in a few weeks. 

Really looking forward to it went for the first time last year and thought it was a much better value day out than HOYS


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## PucciNPoni (26 February 2016)

Feathered said:



			Going but just mainly to shop and spoil my little spaniel. Want to watch lots of agility too as we're taking it up in a few weeks. 

Really looking forward to it went for the first time last year and thought it was a much better value day out than HOYS
		
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Interesting.  I've never been to HOYS and always felt I was missing out.  Now that I'm horseless I kind of wouldn't be bothered  - not that I wouldn't enjoy watching the classes and what not, but the shopping would be a bit lost on me now LOL

However, I do plan to do some shopping this year.  Last year because of the scare with the poisoning (I'd heard about it early in the morning) was terrified to leave my girl on the bench without someone right there, even if there were people I knew nearby.  We've got a dog sitter for while we do our shopping this year


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## druid (26 February 2016)

Lakota_Lizzie said:



			We are eligible to show in both breed classes and BASC/keeper classes. My bitch qualified for her breed class and as she is Gamekeeper owned and regularly worked she can compete in the other classes too. To enter these classes you do not have to have qualified for your breed class. Its all in the schedule, and fr our breed we are not the only ones doing both breed and working classes. Sadly one of our dogs is docked so he cannot come along which is a real pitty.
		
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"A dog may be entered in the Gamekeepers' Classes if it has not won a qualifying prize in a breed class at a Championship Show
the previous year, or is not otherwise qualified, that is, if it is not eligible for entry in breed classes." 

I misread this bit of the entry forms and assumed it meant dogs showing in breed classes were not eligible...I assume it actually means that dogs don't have to qualify as for the breed rings?


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## satinbaze (10 March 2016)

Just been watching day 1 coverage on the telly. Was it the camera angle or did the toy group judge put her face right into the dogs faces? A few of the dogs did back off her, especially the Chinese crested.


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## Nicnac (10 March 2016)

Haven't seen today.  Will watch at weekend.  My boys have same father Broomsward Hugo Boss by Gemswin and I know he's leaving in the morning along with his friends and Gemma.

Good luck Satinbaze!


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## MurphysMinder (11 March 2016)

satinbaze said:



			Just been watching day 1 coverage on the telly. Was it the camera angle or did the toy group judge put her face right into the dogs faces? A few of the dogs did back off her, especially the Chinese crested.
		
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Yes there have been quite a few comments on exhibitor pages about the toy judge.  She did seem to be very in their face,  not necessary in my view.


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## Alec Swan (11 March 2016)

MurphysMinder said:



			Yes there have been quite a few comments on exhibitor pages about the toy judge.  She did seem to be very in their face,  not necessary in my view.
		
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Perhaps she was testing for 'temperament'!  Most would say that she was asking for trouble.  We currently have 4 dogs,  and I wouldn't do that to any of them,  I certainly wouldn't permit a stranger to do so!

Alec.


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## Crackedhalo (11 March 2016)

Does anyone else think the smooth chihuhua was lame? His front end looked awful. 

I think the Toy judge was good, In my opinion it seemed she was trying to engage with the dog before touching them. She seemed alot friendly. The Utility judge was completely unapproachable and seemed uninterested. 

I would love to go just to see the dogs, but I don't want to fund an organisation like the KC (although I suppose watching on TV is not much better!)


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## dorito (11 March 2016)

Crackedhalo said:



			Does anyone else think the smooth chihuhua was lame? His front end looked awful. 

I think the Toy judge was good, In my opinion it seemed she was trying to engage with the dog before touching them. She seemed alot friendly. The Utility judge was completely unapproachable and seemed uninterested. 

I would love to go just to see the dogs, but I don't want to fund an organisation like the KC (although I suppose watching on TV is not much better!)
		
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Also liked the toy judge,  perhaps too much in the dogs' faces and a bit risky to herself, but maybe a technique to see how well-socialised with people the dog is?

I thought movement in general was disappointing with many of the dogs, if they represent 'best of breed' it's very disappointing. Lost count of the pairs of limbs either too wide apart or too close together.

For me the Japanese chin looked distinctly lame and one or two others bordering on it. 

Just my opinion!


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## Paint Me Proud (11 March 2016)

I was there today showing my Large Munsterlander bitch Keiko. We were shortlisted in a big post graduate class but sadly didnt get placed, however I couldnt fault Keiko in the ring I was so proud of her. Our breed started judging at about 1:30pm but didnt finish judging until 6:20pm, it went on for ages, all the dogs looked thoroughly bored and the humans didnt look much better either, lol.

Going back again on Sunday to take Keiko and my older dog Loki to man the Discover Dogs stand, love that more than the showing 

Here is my lovely girl waiting (and waiting, and waiting) for her class.


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## blackcob (11 March 2016)

I had a lovely day with the cocker, he was shortlisted in a class of 18 but let himself down a bit by squeaking and fidgeting in the line-up. We are all completely exhausted!


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## Clodagh (12 March 2016)

Well done everyone who went, what an achievement to be there, placed or no.
Can anyone tell me how come the Brittany was docked?


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## twiggy2 (12 March 2016)

Clodagh said:



			Well done everyone who went, what an achievement to be there, placed or no.
Can anyone tell me how come the Brittany was docked?
		
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sometimes they are born without tails


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## MurphysMinder (12 March 2016)

Clodagh said:



			Well done everyone who went, what an achievement to be there, placed or no.
Can anyone tell me how come the Brittany was docked?
		
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It must have been docked before 2007 I presume.

ETS.  Just looked and she was born in 2010 so not sure,  was she definitely docked ?   Possibly born with a naturally bobbed tail


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## Alec Swan (12 March 2016)

twiggy2 said:



			sometimes they are born without tails
		
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Would that be without a tail as in bob-tailed,  or abnormally short tails which which 'appear' to be docked?  I'm not doubting,  I'm interested!  Presumably if the dog was imported from a country where docking was still legal,  that wouldn't make any difference in that there's a blanket ban on all docked dogs,  regardless of their country of origin.  Would I be right?

MM,  would it be unusual for a dog of 9 years (or thereabouts),  to be shown at Crufts?  I'd have imagined that for showing,  the point for most breeds when the dog was considered to be perhaps a bit long in the tooth,  would be reached by the age of 5 years,  something like that.  Showing really isn't my thing,  so again,  I'm asking out of interest!  Perhaps I'm looking at my own work dogs,  all of which by the age of 9 years are showing their age having had a rather hard life.  Dunno! 

Alec.


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## satinbaze (12 March 2016)

Here is more about breeds with natural Bob tails. https://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/Bobtail.php
Alec yes dogs over 9 are often shown at crufts the wonderful Vbos the Kentuckian won best in show aged 9.


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## blackcob (12 March 2016)

Last year's sibe BOB was 10 (almost 11) and still working at that point, she's back again today too. The cocker veteran classes were well supported this year, some docked tails among them.


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## Penny Less (12 March 2016)

I was so so thrilled to see a Gordon Setter win the Gundog group. They are my favourite breed and never seem to do that well at Crufts.
He also won the vulnerable breed class.  Its so sad that they are a declining breed. I have had four over the past 30 years, three of which came through the rescue, and one I managed to buy as a puppy.  There never seems to be any puppies for sale when  I look and not seen any advertised in the rescue. They are so beautiful and the ones I had had the loveliest temperament. Im keeping fingers crossed Lourdace Fulcrum (James) will win !!


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## Nicnac (12 March 2016)

He is gorgeous and his owner was so delighted in his interview with Clare Balding - yep now the flatties are out of the running hope he gets BIS!


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## ester (12 March 2016)

See my aunt and uncle have had 3, they've all been awful! All had kidney/liver issues and the bitch was apparently scared of the dark and wouldn't jump a stile on a walk and one of the dogs was dog aggressive, so I couldn't see them being great gundogs. Lol


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## MurphysMinder (12 March 2016)

Alec,  as has already been said lots of show dogs go on until 9 years and older.  My young bitch's sire won his class today at nearly 8 years,  and many moons ago my mum had a champion GSD who was still winning CCs at 9 years and beyond.


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## blackcob (12 March 2016)

Talking of veterans did anyone see the vizsla in the ABC agility final? 12 years old and a cracking run.


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## ester (12 March 2016)

Why didn't C4 show us the group 3 and 4!?


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## Auslander (12 March 2016)

Our lovely Morgan (shown by a friend, as my parents are in Australia at the moment) had a great time, made lots of new friends, and behaved beautifully. He was 7th in his class, which my dad is perfectly happy with. He was never meant to be a show dog!


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## Lucejh (13 March 2016)

My English Springer Spaniel Bitch came third in the BASC Best ESS Bitch class, she's eleven years young and is docked....she fits into the legislation regarding docking of dogs and showi g them in a place where public pay to see them.


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## Lucejh (13 March 2016)

My dog who is eleven years young competed in the BASC Class at crufts. ...docked.....and came third!!


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## PucciNPoni (13 March 2016)

Penny Less said:



			I was so so thrilled to see a Gordon Setter win the Gundog group. They are my favourite breed and never seem to do that well at Crufts.
He also won the vulnerable breed class.  Its so sad that they are a declining breed. I have had four over the past 30 years, three of which came through the rescue, and one I managed to buy as a puppy.  There never seems to be any puppies for sale when  I look and not seen any advertised in the rescue. They are so beautiful and the ones I had had the loveliest temperament. Im keeping fingers crossed Lourdace Fulcrum (James) will win !!
		
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I'm absolutely over the moon for David, Fiona, Jose et al and James.  What a wonderful achievement they have had the other day.  Fingers crossed for them for BIS today.


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## abb123 (13 March 2016)

I went yesterday. I had a great day cuddling all the dogs. I was almost crying with happiness. Loved the discover dogs section and loved being able to walk around and say hello to all the dogs. 99.99% of the owners/handlers looked like they adored their dogs and were showering them with fuss and attention. 

I'm very much a gundog person but going on the pastoral/working dog day was great to see so many other breeds that I wouldn't normally get to see.


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## Nicnac (13 March 2016)

abb123 said:



			I went yesterday. I had a great day cuddling all the dogs. I was almost crying with happiness. Loved the discover dogs section and loved being able to walk around and say hello to all the dogs. 99.99% of the owners/handlers looked like they adored their dogs and were showering them with fuss and attention. 

I'm very much a gundog person but going on the pastoral/working dog day was great to see so many other breeds that I wouldn't normally get to see.
		
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Did you cuddle the flatties?  All related to my two  They each had a teddy bear in their mouths.


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## Equi (13 March 2016)

Clare is talking about the gsd now.


All the panel are appalled!


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## splashgirl45 (13 March 2016)

it was the first time I had seen the gsd in question and I was shocked that the judge should have this as a winner.  she looked crippled  to me and I feel very sad that such a lovely breed is being bred to have such exaggerated sloping back...in the old days when we called them alsations they didn't have such sloping backs.  wonder what will be said to the judge after the things the panel said..


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## PucciNPoni (13 March 2016)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnE8EkevHnc&app=desktop

the missing footage, no wonder they took it out!!!


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## AceAmara (13 March 2016)

PucciNPoni said:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnE8EkevHnc&app=desktop

the missing footage, no wonder they took it out!!!
		
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God that&#8217;s awful


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## Shantara (13 March 2016)

PucciNPoni said:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnE8EkevHnc&app=desktop

the missing footage, no wonder they took it out!!!
		
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Looks like the bloomin' Tennessee waking horses!!!


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## {97702} (13 March 2016)

PucciNPoni said:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnE8EkevHnc&app=desktop

the missing footage, no wonder they took it out!!!
		
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I just see a dog that is nervy, distressed and clearly not showing itself off in any way - which would be explained by the fact she is in season apart from anything else - she didn't move properly because of that, not because she is structurally unsound!  

Having said that, I could not live with a topline like that.....


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## Equi (13 March 2016)

that dogs in full on flight mode, she does not want to be there.

HOW is that dog picked as best?! If that was a horse, they would be asked to leave the ring.


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## Amymay (13 March 2016)

equi said:



			that dogs in full on flight mode, she does not want to be there.

HOW is that dog picked as best?! If that was a horse, they would be asked to leave the ring.
		
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My thoughts exactly. Poor dog, whichever way you view her conformation (which to my mind is heartbreakingly appalling).


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## Goldenstar (13 March 2016)

Stressed frightened uncomfortable dog.
Horrible .


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## ester (13 March 2016)

equi said:



			that dogs in full on flight mode, she does not want to be there.

HOW is that dog picked as best?! If that was a horse, they would be asked to leave the ring.
		
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Well she was picked as the best in a much much smaller ring, not in the main arena under lights....


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## abb123 (13 March 2016)

Nicnac said:



			Did you cuddle the flatties?  All related to my two  They each had a teddy bear in their mouths.
		
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Yes I did! They were gorgeous and were so enjoying all the attention!


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## niko (13 March 2016)

I must say I nearly fell off my seat after watching the GSD. I am so appalled that a judge had not disqualified that dog. Apart from its temperament being unsound, it's hips and croup were shocking,  I was waiting for it to fall apart like lego!
I have a working GSD,  they could be two different breeds they are that far apart. My bitch is sound in temperament & body, straight backed, solid joints and moves like a whippet,  so fluid and agile. 
Why are there such differences within breeds such as working and showing lines. Surely they should be of the same able to do a job and look good doing it.
Oh it has really annoyed me seeing an animal so unsound and distressed.


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## Thistle (13 March 2016)

Nicnac said:



			Did you cuddle the flatties?  All related to my two  They each had a teddy bear in their mouths.
		
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I know the flatties that were at discover dogs, very local to me if they're the same line. He puppy won best pup.


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## Dobiegirl (13 March 2016)

Lévrier;13204052 said:
			
		


			I just see a dog that is nervy, distressed and clearly not showing itself off in any way - which would be explained by the fact she is in season apart from anything else - she didn't move properly because of that, not because she is structurally unsound!  

Having said that, I could not live with a topline like that.....
		
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I agree she looked terrified, people on the exhibitors page on fb are saying she has very good hip and elbow scores and others were saying they deliberately didnt show under that judge because they knew the type they liked.


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## Dobiegirl (14 March 2016)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3sJXFR9Rcg&feature=youtu.be


What a weak response from the KC, how about kicking the judge off the judging panel for starters.


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## twiggy2 (14 March 2016)

Dobiegirl said:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3sJXFR9Rcg&feature=youtu.be


What a weak response from the KC, how about kicking the judge off the judging panel for starters.
		
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What gets me is no-one addresses the fact the dog is not much better


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## millikins (14 March 2016)

Agree. Can't see why they are delighted that this is the start of a discussion, should be near the end of it. I would suggest the dog is disqualified, it's KC record states clearly that it is not suitable for breeding and the judge is demoted at the least. Horrible to see.


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## Alec Swan (14 March 2016)

Dobiegirl said:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3sJXFR9Rcg&feature=youtu.be


What a weak response from the KC, how about kicking the judge off the judging panel for starters.
		
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Your clip won't open,  I wonder why?   Perhaps the clip below will.  As is often the case,  bodies such as the KC only ever seem to act following public uproar.  Alec.

https://www.facebook.com/jessica.baker.792197/posts/10153335817997466


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## Penny Less (14 March 2016)

Is it wise to take a dog in season to a show like this if this is indeed the case? Sorry don't know the protocol of showing !


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## PucciNPoni (14 March 2016)

Penny Less said:



			Is it wise to take a dog in season to a show like this if this is indeed the case? Sorry don't know the protocol of showing !
		
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Wise? Depends on what perspective.  I don't believe there to be any harm for the bitch, except perhaps to annoy her when she's hormonal.  Other exhibitors, particularly those with dogs would be most annoyed.  But it's a strange one.  My bitch last year only JUSt finished a season before the show - a lot of expense paying for hotels, qualifications, entries time spent getting ready and conditioning to not go because it might annoy someone else.  There is no specific rule to say you can't show a bitch in season as far as I'm aware, unlike agility or obedience.  I had expected to leave her home this year as she was due again to come in for Crufts.  But she's now overdue :/

It's generally frowned upon but not against the rules.


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## Alec Swan (14 March 2016)

Penny Less said:



			Is it wise to take a dog in season to a show like this if this is indeed the case? ..
		
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PucciNPoni said:



			Wise? Depends on what perspective.  ..

It's generally frowned upon but not against the rules.
		
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The ruling could simply be adjusted that if male dogs are showing any specific interest in a bitch then she's simply removed.  It isn't that difficult and it would be the bitch owner who's responsible,  they'll be able to _adjust_ the bitch's season to fit in with showing,  and to enter a dog which will clearly upset male dogs because of her current 'condition' is both thoughtless and unnecessary.  Any bitch which by her condition reflects upon the behaviour of male exhibitors would say little for her owners.

Can we imagine the chaos which would have ensued had he slipped his handler (and none that I saw inspired me) and covered her in the ring?  The twenty minute wait would have demanded screens,  at the very least! 

Alec.


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## ester (14 March 2016)

I guess if you really think that that year, with that judge your bitch has the possibility of going best in breed you are going to take her and that in her actual class it will all be bitches. I do think when doing BOB they should have had them go round individually though not together. People take in season mares out.


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## PucciNPoni (14 March 2016)

yes mares in season of often out, but given their cycles being so frequent it would almost remove them completely from the scene I suppose it would be generally thought of as unfair, whereas most bitches are a 6 month cycles there are many shows which still can be done.  Unfortunately though, with a six month cycle and seasons which last three weeks....and a show like Crufts are always the same time, there's a good chance a bitch might miss Crufts every year.

And there's not much chance of me being a novice exhibitor going BOB at most any champ show lol - I've come close maybe once with a BB but well, I live in hope lol


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## ester (14 March 2016)

ah true about the cycling and the chance of missing it every year.


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## twiggy2 (14 March 2016)

ester said:



			ah true about the cycling and the chance of missing it every year.
		
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one litter of pups would change all that


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## PucciNPoni (14 March 2016)

twiggy2 said:



			one litter of pups would change all that
		
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True enough.  I'm I a breed though that you don't see many bitches showing after a certain age or after a litter.  Their coat sort of loses it's bloom after the age of five and many breeders shave down the coat for whelping.  Yes, I could certainly show her with a pet trim, but I think that only certain exhibitors can "get away" with it.


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## twiggy2 (14 March 2016)

PucciNPoni said:



			True enough.  I'm I a breed though that you don't see many bitches showing after a certain age or after a litter.  Their coat sort of loses it's bloom after the age of five and many breeders shave down the coat for whelping.  Yes, I could certainly show her with a pet trim, but I think that only certain exhibitors can "get away" with it.
		
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running most bitches hard and getting them really fit and perfect weight will delay seasons in almost all itches, my last lurcher bitch always had to be 'let down' and 'fed up' to make her come into season as she always ran herself so hard on a daily basis. It is not uncommon in lurchers as they don't tend to carry the body fat that other dogs can and by nautre of them as a working dog they have to be very fit to suceed. 
I know a few security dogs that have been the same, also how oten is it that a bitch comes into season dead on 6 months every time?


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## ester (14 March 2016)

I don't think running them hard is going to result in show condition for a lot of them!


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## twiggy2 (14 March 2016)

ester said:



			I don't think running them hard is going to result in show condition for a lot of them!
		
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crufts is once per year, if you delay the season 6 months or so before crufts by getting them fit enough that nature delays a season for a month there is plenty of time to be ready for enough shows to qualify and have the dog show ready for crufts


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## Alec Swan (14 March 2016)

twiggy2 said:



			crufts is once per year, if you delay the season 6 months or so before crufts by getting them fit enough that nature delays a season for a month there is plenty of time to be ready for enough shows to qualify and have the dog show ready for crufts
		
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Yours is a better explanation of the very same point which I made,  but earlier.  Bitches in season are the responsibility of the owner,  and should the litmus test of a dog's interest be applied and prove 'positive',  then any such bitches should be removed from the ring.  To ignore this point leaves the showing fraternity open to accusations of skulduggery. 

Alec.


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## PucciNPoni (14 March 2016)

interesting, I wonder if that's why mine is over due.  hahaha, who am I kiddin!


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## Paint Me Proud (14 March 2016)

Showing bitches in season is 100% allowed under Kennel Club rules.
Dogs are always judged before the bitches, this is done to ensure dogs arent distracted by the scent of an in season bitch left in the ring if the bitches were to have gone in first.

However....

It is massively frowned up by other competitors and considered extremely bad sportsmanship to bring a bitch who is in 'full' season due tot he effect it has on the dogs.
Showing during the first and last few days is okay as long as you are respectful of other dogs.

I showed my bitch the day after she finished her season but kept her away from all the dogs during the show out of respect that she may still smell 'interesting'.


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## Supertrooper (14 March 2016)

I'm going to add my thoughts to the mix, personally I don't like showing, I think with a lot of these pastimes that are judged that it's unfortunately often not the best that gets through its who you are and what favours are owed to you etc that causes your animal to do well. I'm not saying this always happen but I'm positive it does happen. 

With regards to the GSD for a start it looked and was acting frightened, if it hadn't been on a lead it would have been off but because it was restricted and was in a fearful state this didn't help its front leg body action at all. 

Her back legs are nowhere near right, how anyone can feel that is fit for purpose I do not know. She also on at least one occasion knuckled over on her back foot. 

Whatever the ins and outs that dog is now seen by others as the best example of the breed in the world and by allowing it to win others will strive towards that example. 

One of the points of showing in the past was to pick the best examples of the breed to then breed from. To me these dogs must be physically and temperamentally sound 150%!! 

If the dog was like this because she was in season she shouldn't be shown and I would even go so far as to say that she shouldn't be a show dog at all if it effects her temperament so much


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## Venevidivici (14 March 2016)

Physiologically,that GSD moved like a dog with a serious neurological problem. At first glance at the slo-mo (as I walked past the tv and stopped to watch),I thought it was a clip from Supervet,showing a surgical patient who was lucky to be alive,let alone shuffling/tripping along....
I (along with all the dog owners i know) am appalled. The judge and breeder should be shot at dawn (metaphorically,obviously - along with any others who judge 'that' to be desirable) and heads should roll at the KC - how can entrants who are a clear and obvious abomination of the breed standard get that far?! 

I know this isn't the only breed to have been bastardised by some of the show breeders but seriously...this country needs to get a grip and sort this travesty out. 

Apologies...my blood is still boiling...


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## Alec Swan (14 March 2016)

Venevidivici said:



			&#8230;&#8230;.. seriously...this country needs to get a grip and sort this travesty out. 

&#8230;&#8230;.. ...
		
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The vast majority will agree with you,  just as they did and would have done 20 years ago.  It simply aint gonna happen!

Perhaps the old and the lame amongst those who direct 'things' should be put out to pasture.  It's high time.

Alec.


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## Cinnamontoast (14 March 2016)

The knuckling over is a typical neurological clue, so the specialist told me at the RVC. It's anormal, very worrying sign. The video made me really upset. Even if she had been tucking under to avoid a dog, that was extreme.


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## Venevidivici (14 March 2016)

I agree Alec - plenty must be old,lame and with clearly failing eye-sight...
The best GSD dog was conformationally barely any better, which blows the in-season argument out of the water somewhat.
As pointed out on another forum,it's ironic that Crufts has a police dog display,full of fully-functional GSDs and yet those physically impaired pair of unfortunate dogs are held up as the pinnacle of the breed.


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## Alec Swan (15 March 2016)

Venevidivici said:



			&#8230;&#8230;.. those physically impaired pair of unfortunate dogs are held up as the pinnacle of the breed. 

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I wonder if the powers that be would have reacted,  publicly or otherwise,  had there not been public outrage.  The problem,  it seems to me is that there's no purposeful will for change,  or at least when there is,  it's only as a means of placating those who are the most outspoken.  It also seems odd that it's those who wouldn't make a claim as to any breed-specific knowledge,  and I'm amongst them,  who nonetheless are able to see what the 'experts' can't.

We have a multitude of equine registration facilities,  but only one for dogs,  and therein may lay the reason for the apparent complacency and apathy.  It's a funny old world,  isn't it? 

Alec.


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## Dry Rot (15 March 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			I wonder if the powers that be would have reacted,  publicly or otherwise,  had there not been public outrage.  The problem,  it seems to me is that there's no purposeful will for change,  or at least when there is,  it's only as a means of placating those who are the most outspoken.  It also seems odd that it's those who wouldn't make a claim as to any breed-specific knowledge,  and I'm amongst them,  who nonetheless are able to see what the 'experts' can't.

We have a multitude of equine registration facilities,  but only one for dogs,  and therein may lay the reason for the apparent complacency and apathy.  It's a funny old world,  isn't it? 

Alec.
		
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Actually, there are quite a few canine registries, but none of them have the kudos and credibility of the KC who exert their virtual monopoly by remaining a "private club". In short, the KC can do (and does) exactly what it likes. Even it's own members cannot peruse their accounts as the late Dr Malcolm Willis (of GSD fame and KC member) found out! It is part (and head) of an international network of "recognised" dog registries world-wide.

The KC should become member owned with everyone who owns a registered dog having a vote. As I have said before, the KC exerts enormous influence and pressure on all dogdom, out of all proportion to the percentage who run things. Their influence extends far beyond dogs. 

Power corrups and absolute power corrups absolutely. But don't expect the KC to take opposition sitting down! As I've said, it is run like the Mafia or the Freemasons and if favours are not returned, the consequences can be dire. I wonder how I know that?


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## MurphysMinder (16 March 2016)

OK  I shall briefly stick my head above the parapet here.   I commented elsewhere that I thought the bitch looked awful in the big ring,  but people whose opinion I respected said she was a good type of bitch.  Having seen pictures of her standing (not at Crufts) I don't have too many problems with her shape although would agree she is over angulated at the back. She does however have good hip and elbow scores   However I know that many of the general public don't like that type.
I have asked on a couple of GSD pages that a video be produced of her moving freely off lead,  if that does happen I will share it here with the owners permission.  I do feel desperately sorry for the owner of this bitch,  she may be unsound but she is not unhealthy and she is a much loved dog,  calling them cruel and animal abusers as some have done (not on here)  is just wrong.
Sadly I think in defending this bitch a lot of breeders are missing the point,  as an outsider who doesn't go to shows I think over angulation and loose hocks need addressing.  Many are now realising this and breeding to improve the situation,  but there are still some who have ostrich syndrome.
I have lived with GSDs for all my life and love the breed,  I am happy with how my dogs look, though some may not like them,  but I am sad what is happening to some.    My young bitch's sire won the veteran class at Crufts,  imo and that of many others he is the one who should have been BoB,  a sound, balanced dog without over exaggeration in any dept,  there are better dogs out there maybe but in the Crufts environment he showed his head off.   Sadly it is the one in the centre of the ring who makes the decision,  and they chose Tori.


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## Alec Swan (16 March 2016)

MurphysMinder,  a good post.  Obviously the media have rounded on the entire breeding and showing ethos,  and perhaps some good will come of it or at least a shift in stance.  It wouldn't be a bad thing.

I asked earlier (or perhaps somewhere else!) if you could find a piece of film of the bitch in question moving feely,  and if you could,  that may well be useful and I'd be grateful.  I strongly suspect that those who are actually showing the dogs in hand are sourced for their abilities and it may very well be that it was as much the handler's influence,  and the fact that the bitch seemed to be towing him round the ring,  possibly to avoid the attentions of the dog following,  which was the reason for her exaggerated and apparently distorted movement.

For all of that,  I continue to believe that those who steer the GSD as a breed really must look to themselves and work towards breeding dogs with less in the way of an unnatural stance and movement.

Alec.


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## {97702} (16 March 2016)

Well said MM &#128522;&#128522;&#128522;


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## ester (16 March 2016)

Thanks MM


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## blackcob (16 March 2016)

Another balanced response MM 

I think I said this in the other thread but if only she had been able to move well and with confidence in the big ring I think there would have been far less controversy, or at least no more than in previous years. Presumably she has done so in the past so it's a huge shame for all her connections that it all went to pieces just when all eyes were on her.


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## Fellewell (16 March 2016)

I would suggest that those engaged in the usual GSD backlash go and read the statement issued by gsdleague.co.uk on BOB 2016. Get some information from people who really do know this breed.
I saw lots of dogs who should have failed the temperament test this year; Cruaghaire Catoria was NOT one of them.


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## ycbm (16 March 2016)

Fellewell said:



			I would suggest that those engaged in the usual GSD backlash go and read the statement issued by gsdleague.co.uk on BOB 2016. Get some information from people who really do know this breed.
I saw lots of dogs who should have failed the temperament test this year; Cruaghaire Catoria was NOT one of them.
		
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That other dogs should have failed the temperament test is either  irrelevant or just brings showing into even more disrepute.

Why would I want to read what people 'who really know the breed' are saying when those people are breeding and giving rewards to dogs with roach backs which clearly do not meet the breed standard?

If there is a backlash every year, why is no-one taking any notice?


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## ester (16 March 2016)

I don't think it says anything we don't already know to be honest. It is a shame they gave nothing to support this statement 'Cruaghaire Catoria is a correct type to the German Shepherd Dog standard' when the standard clearly reads straight back.


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## Amymay (16 March 2016)

Fellewell said:



			I would suggest that those engaged in the usual GSD backlash go and read the statement issued by gsdleague.co.uk on BOB 2016. Get some information from people who really do know this breed.
I saw lots of dogs who should have failed the temperament test this year; Cruaghaire Catoria was NOT one of them.
		
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Interesting statement, especially the opening lines accusing the Kennel Club and Crufts presenters of cteating public hysteria.  They didn't - the public outcry was totally in advance of Channel 4's airing of these views.

It's all very well saying get some information from people who know the breed, but it only takes one look to know that the current breed standard is not what these dogs should look like.


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## ester (16 March 2016)

maybe the standard should come with to scale diagrams rather than relying on interpretation of 'straight'


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## Alec Swan (16 March 2016)

Fellewell said:



			I would suggest that those engaged in the usual GSD backlash go and read the statement issued by gsdleague.co.uk on BOB 2016. Get some information from people who really do know this breed.
I saw lots of dogs who should have failed the temperament test this year; Cruaghaire Catoria was NOT one of them.
		
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I've read the statement from the GSD League,  including the comments from the handler,  a person of international standing,  or so they claim.  I'm sorry Fellewell,  but for such claims to be made by the GSD League,  when those who aren't specific GSD owners but are none the less competent to judge a dog and its movement,  breed irrespective,  really isn't good enough.  The League concerned are now blaming the Kennel Club and Crufts for the 'public hysteria'.  The truth is that the KC and Crufts (though generally as bad as each other),  simply elected to fight a rear guard action following the criticisms and concerns which the public legitimately raised and not the other way around.  Rather than attempting to concoct a feeble response,  the GSD League would be better to right what's wrong.  Their defence of the judge is laughable in a litany or errors,  and those who represent the breed need to accept the criticisms and adjust the breeding and judging protocols accordingly.

Rather than the existing system of 'blame' which is in place,  the bodies concerned,  and whilst also involving the main body of breeders need to sit down,  in conference and sort out a future for their breed where this sorry display is never again repeated.  Who's really to blame?  All those who are involved with breeding and showing GSDs and who realising a sense of disquiet have stood by and done nothing,  for years.  Change and improvement must come from within,  before their ability to self-regulate is taken from them.

Alec.


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