# Grain free food discussion on current concerns



## Aru (2 March 2019)

Just shooting a quick post on here because I don't know if how well opening this discussion up will go...but I'm curious.

Grainfree dog food.
What are peoples thoughts?
Has the news of the DCM and heart failure risk changed anyone from these food?

Or is it a wait and see time to see if theres also some genetic links and other issues as well as the foods implicated with causing potential taurine deficiencies in certain dogs.

How do people feel about the fact that these products have not been recalled despite the reported deaths from longterm use? 

Has this issue reached the Uk properly yet? It's been gaining momentum in the states,mostly as the fda have been pushed into investigating because of the number of dogs coming to cardiologists with this specific type of heart failure in breeds its not usually seen in. Its just starting to be spoken about more here in oz...

https://www.americanveterinarian.co...between-grainfree-dog-foods-and-heart-disease

http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2018/12/ev...-diets-associated-with-heart-disease-in-dogs/


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## ester (2 March 2019)

I'm curious too, I've only really seen people stateside discussing it but am not that active on any dog groups, so just following really!


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## Cinnamontoast (2 March 2019)

This has passed me by, I must say. I only use kibble occasionally. Iâ€™ve fed raw for a long time, plus dog-friendly table scraps.

I would never feed a supermarket grain heavy food and the amount of people who tell me the anecdotes of persistent ear infections disappearing once grain has been eliminated is huge, not to mention the amount of allergy tests which come back with grain being the culprit (springer forum, mostly, Iâ€™m not sure everyone knows how to clean their floppy ears!)


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## JennBags (3 March 2019)

It's passed me by too. We feed canagan as the dog gets on well with it, and I thought it was supposed to be healthy. The articles make it sound as though it is only certain breeds that it affects, but doesn't specify beyond the golden retrievers that are the ones that appear to be taurine deficient.


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## vallin (3 March 2019)

To me, all this says is that proper research is needed into all dog food, but as that doesn't make money I don't see it happening. They are also hammering up the grain-free element and ignoring whatever the 'exotic meat' component of the diet it. I'd be interested to know some specific food examples as my suspicion is that what we think of as grain-free foods is very different to the American BEG diets ðŸ¤·


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## planete (3 March 2019)

I feed grain free and, since becoming aware of the issue, have double checked kibble ingredients to make sure the protein content comes mainly from good meat sources (over 80%) and the pea content is below 5%.  We need to know more really.


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## Goldenstar (3 March 2019)

I have mine on Canagan and they are all doing so well I would need to trust and understand the sources more to change as the healthy long living dogs are really the important thing you need to see .


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## MotherOfChickens (3 March 2019)

I've been aware of it for a couple of years mostly because I am on golden retriever groups on FB. Quarrie's has had several diet changes due to anal gland problems and company such as Burns who are aware and doing something about it. I've had talks with several pet food companies about it.

The research always states more 'boutique' brands which is very woolly (having found nasties in certain pet foods in the past I understand why the woolliness!) so I wonder if its smaller companies. I have always wondered why peas are so prevalent in some brands, being a major allergen apart from anything else.


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## Aru (3 March 2019)

There's a group on facebook called Taurine deficient(nutritional) dilated cardiomyopathy, definitely an American bias but also helpful for the clinical cases and they have information on nutrition in their units list.

They are adding the breeds to the list as the cardiac echocardiograms are confirming the disease in both symptomatic and asymptomatic dogs....and also reporting what food the dogs are on....and if the heart scans are clear they also report those as well in an attempt to build a better clinical picture. On this site -309 diagnosed in DCM and 55 deaths..confirmed.

FDA will have data submitted from there as well.

Personally, I would advise against Grainfree feeding at this point...and advised anyone currently on this feeding plan to join that group.This doesnt appear to be just a Taurine issue some are coming back with normal levels..but the nutritional link should also not be ignored until the exact cause can be found. I'm not going to write the exact foods on here...but I see several are worldwide brands,some that are sold in the UK I would have previously considered as very high-quality foods implicated, with dogs confirmed in DCM....and the numbers are growing. I have no intention of naming them on a public forum as I suspect that may land HHO in trouble.


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## MotherOfChickens (3 March 2019)

thats Aru, will join up


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## Amymay (3 March 2019)

Itâ€™s sort of been on my radar as have always fed grain free, good quality (I thought) kibble.

However I too have moved to raw feeding because of allergies and anal gland issues. And the dog is doing really well.

But itâ€™s certainly interesting.


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## Clodagh (3 March 2019)

Surely, raw feeders also feed grain free? I can't see a raw dog being fed wheat?
Ours are on a grain free kibble but have lots of chicken's layers pellets and spilt grain when out so I don't know why I bother.
It seems most unlikely that dogs have evolved to eat wheat or grains? I understand they would eat offal with contents in - ours still do (gross) but whereas I see the point that human's digest barley better than wheat as it is an older grain dogs surely would not need to evolve around anything like that?


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## MotherOfChickens (3 March 2019)

Clodagh-it looks as though its the increased use of legumes instead in these diets that might be causing the issues, along with a possible genetic susceptibility (and everything has a genetic susceptibility pretty much). It may be that these diets lack taurine (and some companies are additionally supplementing with taurine) or that the legumes interfere with taurine absorption/uptake etc. So its not that the dogs are fed grain free as such, its that the grain free diets aren't formulated right for dogs.


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## Aru (3 March 2019)

Not formulated correctly it would appear and no longterm feeding trials were done before being the foods were mass produced and sold...This is scarily not dissimilar to how they found out about the cat heart issue in dry foods before taurine became heavily supplemented in the 80's as it happens....that became apparent when young animals started dying of HCM as well.

Which exact portion is causing the issues isn't immediately clear. Legumes do seem to be a big suspicion...but not all the affected dogs are coming back with low taurine which is unusual.  Have a look at the chart I mentioned on facebook. There's a LOT of foods throwing up these issues including some raw premade foods and homemade, though much lower numbers than the popular brands.

Also, dogs can digest grains, they produce the enzymes for breakdown of starch just not in their saliva...lower intestines and pancreas. They did a study on it recently showing the differences between dogs and wolves I believe...we essentially genetically modified them to thrive scavenging around us...and one of the mods essentially is they can cope with grains if they are cooked or denatured first.


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## MotherOfChickens (3 March 2019)

Am waiting to be allowed to join Aru, be interesting to see what foods are on there so far.


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## ester (3 March 2019)

Clodagh there is interesting research with regards to the number of copies of an amylase gene in canids, including different breeds of domesticated dogs re. their evolution to be able to eat grain as agriculture spread.


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## MotherOfChickens (3 March 2019)

ester said:



			Clodagh there is interesting research with regards to the number of copies of an amylase gene in canids, including different breeds of domesticated dogs re. their evolution to be able to eat grain as agriculture spread.
		
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I had forgotten about that!


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## Clodagh (3 March 2019)

ester said:



			Clodagh there is interesting research with regards to the number of copies of an amylase gene in canids, including different breeds of domesticated dogs re. their evolution to be able to eat grain as agriculture spread.
		
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Isn't nature clever!


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## Clodagh (3 March 2019)

I have just gone and looked at MWH and the cheaper one, that I have just put the dogs on, does contain peas at somewhere above 4% and below 12% (so quite a bit actually). The higher meat ones contain chick pea flour in small quantities. I may put them back on the more expensive when they have finished this lot in that case. Interesting. 
My OH thinks I'm nuts as when he had the working terriers they all lived on Valumix at Â£10 a bag and seemed right as rain!


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## Cinnamontoast (3 March 2019)

Iâ€™m going to venture an opinion that pea flour is used as a-shock, horror-cheap filler in response to the grain free backlash. I know a fish based brand massively increased their pea content at a time when people were querying the grain content. As per, not enough research has been done, so fire fighting instead of preventative measures. 

I imagine most pet food companies sponsor the studies we see and itâ€™s not in their interest to investigate some of the ingredients theyâ€™ve merrily shoved in, although with owners now making serious queries, theyâ€™re going to and to be fair, some have started. 

I remember reading ingredients years ago and seeing mistletoe included. It just sealed my determination to avoid feeding something with dubious origins. Saying that, god knows what antibiotics etc the raw food I feed has in it. The only â€˜safeâ€™ food might be the wild rabbit/venison my lot get.


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## Cinnamontoast (3 March 2019)

PS: FAT is on the ball this weekend, Aru, I asked them to un-sticky the outdated (and very unscientific!) dry food index last night and theyâ€™ve done it!


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## Aru (3 March 2019)

It was the Chinese melamine contamination issue that sort of set off a lot of the grain-free movement though. Not that it was proven that dogs cannot digest grains.

Grain from china was deliberately contaminated with that chemical and caused massive issues and recalls of dog food at the time. Melamine bulks your protein levels but is cheap and easy to produce as its an industrial chemical...and it can cause kidney failure when consumed at certain levels. Incidentally, they snuck it into MILK in China as well at the time including baby milk and killed several babies as well which is why so many chinese now buy their baby milk from outside sources. Loss of faith in the home produced stuff..understandably enough.

Because the grain component of the diet was implicated in multiple deaths and recalls issues etc the Grain-free movement in pet foods sort of took off to a much bigger level after as consumers lost faith in the bigger brands...as those recalled their foods and were affected by the supplier contamination issue.

Business thrives when there is fear and there was a vacumn in the market for an alternative..so a whole new marketing campaign was started selling these foods. However...protein from meat is expensive and there still needs to be fiber etc provided to make a complete food so alternative sources to the grains had to be found...leading to the likes of legumes peas being used at higher levels in the foods where they had never been really used before. Corn,maize barley etc is cheaper and has been a longterm source in the past.

It's not obligatory to prove your dog food is safe long term before you sell it you see...it needs to meet a minimum standard to be labeled complete but you don't have to feed it to dogs to do that...just have the chemical components present tested...not how they interact together etc

BUT without food trials, no one can know the longterm effects of these sort of changes....but it would appear we are now discovering them.

At least in my opinion anyway.


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## blackcob (3 March 2019)

I'm also waiting to join the group and very interested to see how this unfolds. I feed pre-prepared raw and a 'premium' kibble, both of which contain peas/pea protein between 5 and 10%. 

However, being a bit hamstrung by a chronic pancreatitis dog and needing to keep low fat as well some of these formulations necessarily contain brown rice and most treats in the house now are wheat based Bonio style biscuits which I would have frowned on back in the day. It'd be too much to ask for a formula for how much grain is needed to negate the legume component...?


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## Aru (3 March 2019)

blackcob said:



			I'm also waiting to join the group and very interested to see how this unfolds. I feed pre-prepared raw and a 'premium' kibble, both of which contain peas/pea protein between 5 and 10%.

However, being a bit hamstrung by a chronic pancreatitis dog and needing to keep low fat as well some of these formulations necessarily contain brown rice and most treats in the house now are wheat based Bonio style biscuits which I would have frowned on back in the day. It'd be too much to ask for a formula for how much grain is needed to negate the legume component...? 

Click to expand...


If I knew the answer to that I could make my millions 
The issue is the cardiologists FDA etc haven't managed to figure out exactly why this issue is occurring...only that there's a very suspicious trigger to diet linked in and, as usual, not all the animals are following the same pattern.
But it isn't normal for this level of young dogs of such a variety of breeds to be presenting in acute heart failure from DCM and when its multiples from the same house who aren't genetically related all sorts of alarm bells have slowly started ringing....and have kept ringing as more appear over time...

It may also be genetic but the foods appear to be the trigger...and in some cases moving to a basically "normal" food from the big brands is causing a reversal of the disease, when it was caught early enough...

The other issue is there are a lot of foods on the list and plenty of dogs are still fine despite the foods they are being fed causing issues for others....

these guys explain it significantly better then I can of course.
http://vetnutrition.tufts.edu/2018/11/dcm-update/

and a better breakdown with more actual science and papers linked in.
https://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/full/10.2460/javma.253.11.1390


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## Clodagh (3 March 2019)

Trouble is, if I feed my dogs something that has grain in, they get scurfy coats. But they from clearing the yard at harvest!?


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## Cinnamontoast (3 March 2019)

Clodagh said:



			Trouble is, if I feed my dogs something that has grain in, they get scurfy coats. But they from clearing the yard at harvest!?
		
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I think this is the issue most owners who investigate food are concerned about, itâ€™s either skin or ear issues, sometimes paw chewing. Have you tried adding oil?


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## Thistle (3 March 2019)

From the little bit of reading I've done it seems the high starch content in some grain free foods is to blame. If this is the case then surely feeding the more premium products with a higher meat content is the answer?

I'm constantly looking at dog foods, I probably pay far more attention to what I feed my dogs than what I eat myself. I'd love to feed raw but lack storage space and the confidence to provide a balanced diet. Maybe I just need a freezer in the garage and just get on with it. There is a decent raw food supplier nearby who will help me through the process. They also deliver locally Clodagh if you were interested.

I can't get my head round the idea of feeding raw mince of 'human grade meat' Dogs have good teeth so surely large food and chunks is good.


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## BlackadderUK (3 March 2019)

I've known about this since July last year & nothing has changed! There is still no evidence to support the claims that grain free food is the cause... in fact, whoever is making these claims isn't even sure of the possible cause! Is it grain free, is it legumes, is it exotic meat protein or genetics? There have been no controlled studies done (this would take several years & 100's of dogs)

You have to remember, this is the USA & politics work differently. This taken from Aru's post above just about sums it up for me "and in some cases moving to a basically "normal" food from the *big brands *is causing a reversal of the disease" 

The Big Brands don't like the fact that they are losing sales to the niche, grain free, manufacturers.

For me it's a non story, scaremongering for business sake & until there is empirical evidence that grain free is negatively affecting my dogs I'll continue to feed the same (grain free) I've been feeding for a long time!

Worth reading the link below...

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1902785886410381&id=211410022214651


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## MotherOfChickens (3 March 2019)

BlackadderUK said:



			I've known about this since July last year & nothing has changed!
		
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from July to now is no time at all. and I don't hold that the big pet food companies are evil, they will have at least carried out feed trials. why are people not criticising the smaller companies for bandwagon jumping to make money from pet owners? do you think they sprung up from the goodness of their hearts? no, they make money-and they make money from the bare minimum of research and testing. Makes them worse in my book.

Its not scaremongering for the sake of it, its been rumbling round for the last few years but data gathering from pets takes a lot of time and isn't easy to build rigorous  retrospective studies.

interesting table Aru! A couple of feeds I have looked at but not fed.


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## Clodagh (3 March 2019)

Cinnamontoast said:



			I think this is the issue most owners who investigate food are concerned about, itâ€™s either skin or ear issues, sometimes paw chewing. Have you tried adding oil?
		
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They have linseed oil.


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## Clodagh (3 March 2019)

Thistle said:



			From the little bit of reading I've done it seems the high starch content in some grain free foods is to blame. If this is the case then surely feeding the more premium products with a higher meat content is the answer?

I'm constantly looking at dog foods, I probably pay far more attention to what I feed my dogs than what I eat myself. I'd love to feed raw but lack storage space and the confidence to provide a balanced diet. Maybe I just need a freezer in the garage and just get on with it. There is a decent raw food supplier nearby who will help me through the process. They also deliver locally Clodagh if you were interested.

I can't get my head round the idea of feeding raw mince of 'human grade meat' Dogs have good teeth so surely large food and chunks is good.
		
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Raw is just too expensive prepared. Mine look good on MWH and I will stick with it I think. Other info is always interesting though.


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## planete (3 March 2019)

I am going to stick to MWH's Riverside for now.  It seems to avoid the suspected triggers apart from some pea fibre at between 2 and 4% which is lower than most other GF foods and has no exotic meats.


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## Amymay (3 March 2019)

Interesting regards the peas. I changed Daisy from Fish4Dogs because of the increase in pea content. Purely coincidentally because she seemed allergic suddenly.


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## Aru (3 March 2019)

BlackadderUK I suggest you join that facebook site and say the same to the people whose dogs are dead or affected and see how well it goes down...the owners there will have more sympathy than me though...most would have felt similarly to you before their dogs were affected. 

Not everything is a conspiracy of the big brand foods. I don't work for them shockingly enough! hilariously I work within a pet shop that sells all types of food..including grain-free and raw so I don't personally have a bias over what I need to recommend at work. My sharing on here is 100 percent my own opinions and concerns. 

I do agree this is about profit for the record....but I suspect my idea of whos profiting from these deaths is dramatically different to yours.

How many dogs would you accept as diagnosed with an issue that's potentially linked to a food before a brand should be recalled out of curiosity?

Dermacare in Australia, an Advance brand, was linked to megaoesophagus and the company recalled the entire range while they tried to find out why it was happening...Hills just fecked up royally and recalled multiple prescription foods because of a Vitamin contamination issue that was causing deaths... recalling is part of the cost of business if you are a reputable food brand. Recalling is about damage control and not killing off your client base....

Yet none of these wonderful little niche companies, or indeed larger brands selling grain-free who are all about health and well being and natural food.... seem to be doing the same out of the goodness if their hearts are they? 

Because it will affect profits....and ALL pet foods are about profit. Companies and Business exist to make profits.

In my opinon, they are waiting it out and hoping it can't be proven to be their fault...and when the research eventually does comes out and may well implicate them...
 some will still scream about how it's a conspiracy to put them under by the big brands...  
or they will just modify their foods accordingly and try and say it's not their fault as it wasn't directly proven immediately and the vets should have told them earlier and proven the link better quicker....
I mean how could they possibly have known their foods would kill some dogs? or that feeding unusual things to animals can have dramatic consequences
 (BSE anyone? where nutritionists decided cows could be cannibals because it was cheap protein)
By spending money on clinical trials is the answer to avoiding this situation btw..but again it cuts profits considerably...soo....

I was expecting more replies like this though. 
Surprised it took this long.

I would seriously recommend joining the facebook group though. The stories are generally from very dedicated owners like yourself who love their dogs and thought they were doing the best thing for them. 
These are the owners who are reporting the issue..the ones who have brought their dogs to have heart scans with cardiologists who reported the sudden change in presentations to the FDA etc...

The question is how many dogs out there are being affected and it just hasn't become apparent yet? or who have died but no one realised it was because potentially because of the food. 

Hopefully, it will all blow over and just be another blip in the nutrition evolution of animal food and a specific exact reason can be found...but why take that chance?


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## TGM (3 March 2019)

It does seem odd that all the headlines about about the dangers of 'grain-free' food but actually when you read more deeply into the subject, it seems more likely the danger is coming from 'high legume' feeds instead.  I see from the FB group that although there are many suppliers of grain-free food, it seems that over 50% of reported cases are linked to just three brands, which all seem to have a very high legume content.


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## Amymay (3 March 2019)

Which brands TGM?


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## TGM (3 March 2019)

amymay said:



			Which brands TGM?
		
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See the following links:

http://lakeharrietvet.com/faqs/LHV_Taurine_110218_web.pdf

https://truthaboutpetfood.com/dcm-study-misses-the-big-picture/


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## Aru (3 March 2019)

TGM its because there's such a massive host of foods listed that I stuck grain-free in the original heading as it was the easiest. Happy to modify it if needed though. May have went with that because its the easiest to recognise and writing BEG in a heading I thought would be confusing...all the links I've posted mention a lot more detail than my ramblings....

I just stuck down a heading to start the discussion 

I wouldn't post the brands on here unless you want the fat controller to delete the entire discussion. Until it's published officially that sort of thing invites litigation.


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## TGM (3 March 2019)

I wasn't just referring to your heading, just in general when it is discussed it seems to be about 'grain-free foods' when in fact it seems nothing to do with the lack of grain in the diet.


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## Aru (3 March 2019)

https://truthaboutpetfood.com/no-grain-free-dog-food-heart-disease-in-europe-why/

This also looks very interesting....and means I need to apologise if I worried anyone on here about their dogfood...because if this is true then the eu regulations for pet food may be already preventing this from being an issue in the uk! 
Fingers crossed anyway...will go look into it in the morning.


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## MotherOfChickens (3 March 2019)

Aru said:



https://truthaboutpetfood.com/no-grain-free-dog-food-heart-disease-in-europe-why/

This also looks very interesting....and means I need to apologise if I worried anyone on here about their dogfood...because if this is true then the eu regulations for pet food may be already preventing this from being an issue in the uk!
Fingers crossed anyway...will go look into it in the morning.
		
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the comments after that article make me want to punch myself.


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## BlackadderUK (3 March 2019)

@Aru 

I accept your comments RE: profit, no-one works for nothing but....

"How many dogs would you accept as diagnosed with an issue that's potentially linked to a food before a brand should be recalled out of curiosity?"

The word *potentially *is the key, there is no evidence! A few suppositions, coincidences but from who? This has not been studied & there is no evidence at all that grain free or BEG foods are responsible, if there is I'd like a link. 
Is there anything from UK based bodies issuing the same warning?

Remember the joker (Dr Andrew Wakefield) who published a paper declaring a link between the MMR vaccine & autism? This caused thousands of parents to deny their children the vaccine based on nothing but one mans "understanding" for want of a better word. He was subsequently totally discredited & struck off......

It takes nothing to cause a storm on facebook, twitter et al just light the fire, chuck a couple of unproven articles in & sit back... that's how social media is, someone will always jump on a current bandwagon.

I respect your views but until there is actual evidence to the contrary I'll continue to feed mine the same grain free they've had for years


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## TGM (3 March 2019)

I think it is a very difficult situation- if people feel that is a real link between a product and a health issue, should it be kept quiet until it is proven absolutely one way or the other?  Waiting for conclusive proof takes time and potentially other animals could suffer in the meantime.  Or should it be flagged up that there 'may' be an issue so pet owners can make up their own mind whether it is a concern.  Also by flagging up a potential issue it allows other cases to be identified and reported where the link with diet may not have otherwise been made. 

For the FDA to be investigating does make it sound like there is some real cause for concern.


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## TheOldTrout (3 March 2019)

Aru said:



https://truthaboutpetfood.com/no-grain-free-dog-food-heart-disease-in-europe-why/

This also looks very interesting....and means I need to apologise if I worried anyone on here about their dogfood...because if this is true then the eu regulations for pet food may be already preventing this from being an issue in the uk!
Fingers crossed anyway...will go look into it in the morning.
		
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So our dogs are safe until Brexit then ;-)


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## {97702} (3 March 2019)

I do wonder whether we are becoming over analytical about what we feed ourselves, our dogs and our horses.  As with human research, it seems that what is heralded as being â€˜healthyâ€™ one minute will be being decried as awful a few years down the line....

Of course I want to do the best for my dogs, as we all do, but Iâ€™m not wholly convinced my dogs are more healthy now than they were 30 years ago when I fed other sorts of food (genuinely canâ€™t actually remember what I fed the whippets!)

Not wanting to be negative about the thread at all, research is always interesting and useful, but I do despair of the constant changes in what â€˜the right thing to doâ€™ is


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## Clodagh (3 March 2019)

Levrier said:



			I do wonder whether we are becoming over analytical about what we feed ourselves, our dogs and our horses.  As with human research, it seems that what is heralded as being â€˜healthyâ€™ one minute will be being decried as awful a few years down the line....

Of course I want to do the best for my dogs, as we all do, but Iâ€™m not wholly convinced my dogs are more healthy now than they were 30 years ago when I fed other sorts of food (genuinely canâ€™t actually remember what I fed the whippets!)

Not wanting to be negative about the thread at all, research is always interesting and useful, but I do despair of the constant changes in what â€˜the right thing to doâ€™ is
		
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I totally agree with you. As long as our dogs are bright, alert and happy (and their poos are OK) stick with it!


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## druid (3 March 2019)

It's hard to decide what to feed currently - there's another paper due out in the next few weeks with confirmed TB cases in dogs and cats related to a specific brand of raw food apparently. 

I've also seen reversible Fanconi syndrome which can be attributed to jerky type treats. More research showed dogs at other clinics where the treats were chicken, beef and even vegetable based - not entirely clear what the exact toxin is but those types of treats link all the cases.

Maybe a varied diet is best - I've considered feeding half of my current Grain Free and half standard "premium" kibble with a little canned morning and a little raw mince in the evening to hopefully balance it all out! Seems an awful faff


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## {97702} (3 March 2019)

Clodagh said:



			I totally agree with you. As long as our dogs are bright, alert and happy (and their poos are OK) stick with it!
		
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Poo is definitely better with Arden Grange than Skinners....   Things only dog and horse owners monitor   (and probably parents with young children too, I've just never had any)


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## skinnydipper (3 March 2019)

druid said:



			I've also seen reversible Fanconi syndrome which can be attributed to jerky type treats. More research showed dogs at other clinics where the treats were chicken, beef and even vegetable based - not entirely clear what the exact toxin is but those types of treats link all the cases.
		
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I believe the jerky treats are from China.  I became a  label reader when my dog developed multiple allergies and IBD.  Many dog treats come from there.

I found many of them also contain glycerin which I don't like to give him.

"However, some pet food manufacturers are using glycerin that is derived from biofuel processing. Glycerin produced in this matter contains significant amounts of residual methanol (wood alcohol) and sodium. Methanol is a colorless, volatile, flammable, and poisonous liquid chemical. Its principal uses are as a fuel, solvent, and antifreeze. It is also used in the manufacturing of explosives. There is no research published on the use and safety of crude glycerin from biofuels in pet foods."


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## Clodagh (3 March 2019)

Levrier said:



			Poo is definitely better with Arden Grange than Skinners....   Things only dog and horse owners monitor   (and probably parents with young children too, I've just never had any)
		
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Well I could tell you a story or two about baby poo, but let's move on!


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## Aru (3 March 2019)

https://www.fda.gov/AnimalVeterinary/NewsEvents/CVMUpdates/ucm630991

Most recent update I could find and explains the FDA's current findings and ongoing steps.

I'm still hunting the european side of things..there have been occasional cases in goldens in Europe on grainfree diets but the issue isn't as well reported this side of the world.


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## GSD Woman (3 March 2019)

I know the grain free/high in legumes is a very issue for dog owners in the USA.  I have a working lines GSD and almost 2 years ago a grade 2 murmur was found on a routine physical.  I took him to the cardiologist and had it worked up.  Then the news broke about the grain free and I switched him off of grain free even though he didn't have DCM.  At his last cardiologist work up the doctor almost couldn't find his murmur and lifted his anesthesia restrictions.  It might just be coincidence but I won't feed grain free now.


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## planete (4 March 2019)

I have just done a search on Allaboutdogfood for kibble excluding peas as an ingredient.  No lentils either in the results I have looked at.


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## Aru (7 March 2019)

Brief update.
Yes this is an issue in the UK and Europe.
Theres no one agency collecting data from this side of the world but cases of possible nutritional DCM have been reported in multiple countries in Europe.
Time will tell the longterm level of disease but some of the earlier golden reports linked with a commercial grain free food and with a case study preformed are from 2010 .. so its going to take some time for the research play out.

Belows another link thats condensed some of the imformation known so far...the most recent update from the fda is in the earlier post but I like the way this ones written out as well.

https://therawfeedingcommunity.com/2018/02/08/grain-free-diets-and-dcm/amp/

Also below one of the papers from the U.S vet cardiologists showing worldwide multiple breed affected link.

Diet-associated dilated cardiomyopathy in dogs: what do know. Pdf of the file linked in below.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...Vaw3TfqNKZ9yhL42El8l2hH36&cshid=1551994055474


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## KittenInTheTree (8 March 2019)

Might be worth mentioning that alfalfa is also a legume.


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## MotherOfChickens (8 March 2019)

does anyone know of a decent kibble that doesnt have oodles of peas/potato/alfalfa in it? I had a quick look last night and couldnt find one, even those not grain free that contain rice and/oats have lots of peas in them.


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## Aru (9 March 2019)

https://www.wsava.org/WSAVA/media/Arpita-and-Emma-editorial/Selecting-the-Best-Food-for-your-Pet.pdf

How select a food company according to the World small animal veterinary association.
I can cheat and tell who which companies have put the time, money and expense in and managed to follow those guidelines....
But then I suspect then people will be upset at me for recommending some of the biggest food companies in the world... and will say hows its all a conspiracy to ruin the little guys...again.

Have a read of the Units file on the facebook page. Then reevaluate what you consider good quality food and why.
Marketing is a funny thing...and it amazing how much we can manipulate people with advertising.


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## Aru (9 March 2019)

Oh and another point. Voluntary recalls are not a bad thing to have on a foods record...it means the company has identified and issues and withdrawn all stock and take a financial hit rather than risk damaging their customer base with inferior or dangerous food.

It means they are performing quality control measures to check for safety and follow through when they identify an issue. We want companies to perform food safety testing and react to issues when they are identified.

If your working in the food industry you have to be looking for hazards all the time and mitigating risk. HACCAP systems are there for a reason.

There are occasional issues with the contamination -biological and chemical in a supply of food relatively regularly....and also often issues with storage etc in both human and animals food types. Testing helps catch issues..preferably before multiple deaths occur.

An enforced recalls by the likes of the FDA recall is somewhat different.
That means they have been ordered to remove the food from the market as the regulatory authority have successfully identified and proven the issue making it unsafe to be sold.

https://www.fda.gov/ForConsumers/ConsumerUpdates/ucm049070.htm

That links sort of help explains why and when the FDA investigate and issue recalls ....and the FDA stance on releasing information to the public, this is one of the reasons why so much media attention is beginning to build now.

https://www.fda.gov/AnimalVeterinary/SafetyHealth/RecallsWithdrawals/default.htm

This is the list of the current animal feed recalls and why they have been withdrawn from the market.
There's lots of vit D related recalls on the list at the moment as there was a supplier issue and multiple food lines and companies were affected. High Vit d levels can cause Hypercalcemia and can lead to kidney failure and death in dogs. Thankfully testing was being done and this wasnt ignored but there were still pets affected . The more companies test and recall fewer issues like this should occur.
As you can see....lots of reasons to be testing and constantly striving for quality levels in food.


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## Amymay (9 March 2019)

MotherOfChickens said:



			does anyone know of a decent kibble that doesnt have oodles of peas/potato/alfalfa in it? I had a quick look last night and couldnt find one, even those not grain free that contain rice and/oats have lots of peas in them.
		
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Have you looked at Barking Heads?


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## DabDab (9 March 2019)

MotherOfChickens said:



			does anyone know of a decent kibble that doesnt have oodles of peas/potato/alfalfa in it? I had a quick look last night and couldnt find one, even those not grain free that contain rice and/oats have lots of peas in them.
		
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 When one of mine got very ill (a digestive problem rather than a heart problem) a year or so ago, I did a trawl looking for one. Found a kibble by a company called 'Gentle', which fit the bill, but haven't fed it as it is too high in protein and energy for my midgets.


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## DabDab (9 March 2019)

amymay said:



			Have you looked at Barking Heads?
		
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From memory, when I checked Barking Heads there was Lucerne in there.


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## MotherOfChickens (9 March 2019)

Aru said:



https://www.wsava.org/WSAVA/media/Arpita-and-Emma-editorial/Selecting-the-Best-Food-for-your-Pet.pdf

How select a food company according to the World small animal veterinary association.
I can cheat and tell who which companies have put the time, money and expense in and managed to follow those guidelines....
But then I suspect then people will be upset at me for recommending some of the biggest food companies in the world... and will say hows its all a conspiracy to ruin the little guys...again.

Have a read of the Units file on the facebook page. Then reevaluate what you consider good quality food and why.
Marketing is a funny thing...and it amazing how much we can manipulate people with advertising.
		
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Could you please pm me the companies Aru?


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## druid (9 March 2019)

MotherOfChickens said:



			Could you please pm me the companies Aru?
		
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Eukanuba, Iams, Royal Canin, Purina, Hill's are the ones I've seen that meet the WSAVA guidelines


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## PapaverFollis (9 March 2019)

Ok I wasn't concerned because mine aren't on grain free but just looked at ingredient and their food does have peas in... Burns Alert... is it having peas in an issue full stop?  It's the only thing I've  ever managed to feed without the Sprollie getting a dodgey tum!


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## druid (9 March 2019)

Yes peas are an issue. It's not just grain free it's "BEG" diets - Boutique companies which don't carry out feeding trials, Exotic proteins (such as pea) and Grain free.


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## PapaverFollis (10 March 2019)

Everything I'm reading says "peas as a main ingredient" is potentially a problem. Its not a main ingredient in the Burns Alert but it still troubles me that it's there at all now I've heard about this.  Might have to give Burns a ring and see what they say or ditch it altogether!


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## MotherOfChickens (10 March 2019)

I asked burns about this the middle of last year, they are supplementing taurine although that doesn't sound like it's enough in some cases. Some other brands really do have a lot of peas in there!


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## druid (10 March 2019)

Some of the confirmed cases of DCM have normal taurine levels so, no, it isn't all about taurine. It's so hard to know what to do for the best. I see Hill's have grain free foods - are these considered "safe"??


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## PapaverFollis (10 March 2019)

I'm going to phone them tomorrow, say I'm concerned despite the additional taurine. But I might ditch it. Go for a browse round pets at home and see what I could try instead. Frustrating. And worrying.


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## BlackadderUK (10 March 2019)

Thank you @Aru for the links, I'll read them properly when I get some time, there's a lot to go through.


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## druid (10 March 2019)

I'm currently feeding half raw and half grain free (with 4.6% pea). I've always held a Eukanuba breeders account and am going to switch back to that while I decide what I want to feed longer term


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## BlackadderUK (10 March 2019)

druid said:



			Some of the confirmed cases of DCM have normal taurine levels so, no, it isn't all about taurine. It's so hard to know what to do for the best. I see Hill's have grain free foods - are these considered "safe"??
		
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Who knows? From what I've read there seems to be some link between diet & DCM in some breeds... however, the link itself is unknown (if it exists at all?) I've had a quick skim through the links posted & one thing caught my eye...




			Notably, however, some dogs improved after a diet change from one grain-free diet to another, and this finding, along with the differences identified between dogs fed various BEG diets, suggested that DCM was not necessarily tied to the grain-free status of the diet.
		
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There seems to be some cause for concern but until there is provable evidence that diet related DCM is caused by a)grain free b) legumes c) novel proteins d) other factors (nobody yet knows) then there's a danger of over reaction & to suddenly think about junking the food that suits your dog based on what we know now is a little extreme... IMO!


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## MotherOfChickens (11 March 2019)

BlackadderUK said:



			then there's a danger of over reaction & to suddenly think about junking the food that suits your dog based on what we know now is a little extreme... IMO!
		
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I am no overreacting, I am trying to be informed.


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## Leo Walker (11 March 2019)

MotherOfChickens said:



			I am no overreacting, I am trying to be informed.
		
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Same as me. I raw feed so it doesnt directly affect me, but who knows if will have to feed dry food one day for some reason.


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## druid (11 March 2019)

BlackadderUK said:



			Who knows? From what I've read there seems to be some link between diet & DCM in some breeds... however, the link itself is unknown (if it exists at all?) I've had a quick skim through the links posted & one thing caught my eye...



There seems to be some cause for concern but until there is provable evidence that diet related DCM is caused by a)grain free b) legumes c) novel proteins d) other factors (nobody yet knows) then there's a danger of over reaction & to suddenly think about junking the food that suits your dog based on what we know now is a little extreme... IMO!
		
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This huge spate of DCM didn't fall out of the sky though and the only link between these dogs is the dietary differences. Correlation doesn't mean causation but is it worth the risk?


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## gunnergundog (12 March 2019)

It seems to be kibble that is the prime worry, so apart from the suspect ingredients I wonder if there is any issue with the process of manufacturing that may exacerbate the issue with these items?  Or is the table below representative of the percentage of people who feed kibble versus those who feed raw versus those who feed wet etc etc?  Surely not, or.......?  Source of info is: https://www.fda.gov/AnimalVeterinar...n3q80TfVOyzhe_6qP5h9UC-91yRRlvqe09q8pZI#cases


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## Aru (12 March 2019)

Imformation is useful...and the only way things like this get discussed is if awareness is brought to it. This issue had been rumbling on since 2010 and until last year I had heard very little about it...bar brief mentions of taurine supplementation in unusual cases of DCM. Considering ive always had an interest in nutrition I would have hoped to have heard about this earlier.

The amount of dogs in DCM compared to the amount of dogs eating these diets does suggest theres multiple factors present....however given the serious nature of the disease and the potential for  sudden death with no to minimal warning signs...its one of those things I do think was worth raising awareness about.

At the moment no one knows exactly what the mechanism behind this disease process is...but the suggestive link for nutrition is enough for me personally to advise against people feeding these diets, particularly as a sole food...

Actually one of the conclusions I've personally come to, having delved into the world of cardio and nutrition on mutliple vet sites is that I'm never feeding one companies food solo from this point onwards and im going to rotate protein sources...as I'm lucky enough to have a dog that eats anything put in front of her. That alone helps minimise the risk of issues...both contamination and deficiency wise..but il admit...I'm way to into this stuff and more then a little risk adverse.


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## BlackadderUK (12 March 2019)

Aru said:



			At the moment no one knows exactly what the mechanism behind this disease process is...but the suggestive link for nutrition is enough for me personally to advise against people feeding these diets, particularly as a sole food...
		
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Why would you do that after admitting "no one knows", which diets would you advise against?

All the articles I can find originate from the USA, I can't find any relating to the UK or Europe? It seems that this isn't a problem on this side of the Atlantic as you stated in post #40.... or Australia, or Canada, just the USA.

If I've missed some then I'll be happy to read any link.

Maybe the fact that Europe has higher standards than the USA when it comes to pet food might have a bearing don't you think?  (as you stated in post #40)

I'm sorry if this comes across as argumentative, it's not meant that way but I'm totally exasperated by stuff like this causing real worry for pet owners with no provable evidence whatsoever. IMO the FDA has gone way too early publishing this before they had any real substance.



MotherOfChickens said:



			I am no overreacting, I am trying to be informed.
		
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I wasn't directing any comment at you 

I know I'm a lone wolf screaming at the moon in this thread so I'll bow out for now but..... read the info, not the hype! There is nothing reported by any official body in the UK that highlights an issue..... unless you can find one?


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## ester (12 March 2019)

Switching between foods is just logical hedging bets though surely?


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## planete (13 March 2019)

Since this thread started I have decided to use foods with a maximum percentage of named meat ingredients and no potatoes or legumes.  I was already adding raw meat to kibble and will continue doing so. I am also going to favour raw pressed over dry extruded.  I do not see what harm it can do to take precautions in view of the FDA preliminary conclusions?  Let the manufacturers sort themselves out, my responsibility is to my dogs.  The fact there is as yet no research published in Europe is no indication of the safety of our pet foods either.  We have had too many examples of medicines, additives and other substances turning out to be harmful after years of use to feel complacent.


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## Aru (13 March 2019)

BlackadderUK said:



			Why would you do that after admitting "no one knows", which diets would you advise against?

All the articles I can find originate from the USA, I can't find any relating to the UK or Europe? It seems that this isn't a problem on this side of the Atlantic as you stated in post #40.... or Australia, or Canada, just the USA.

If I've missed some then I'll be happy to read any link.

Maybe the fact that Europe has higher standards than the USA when it comes to pet food might have a bearing don't you think?  (as you stated in post #40)

I'm sorry if this comes across as argumentative, it's not meant that way but I'm totally exasperated by stuff like this causing real worry for pet owners with no provable evidence whatsoever. IMO the FDA has gone way too early publishing this before they had any real substance.



I wasn't directing any comment at you 

I know I'm a lone wolf screaming at the moon in this thread so I'll bow out for now but..... read the info, not the hype! There is nothing reported by any official body in the UK that highlights an issue..... unless you can find one?
		
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There aren't any published studies from the uk at the moment that I could find...but the cardiologists in the uk also reported an increase in unexpected breeds showing DCM on grainfree and boutique diets....I asked on the uk vet boards!... because I discovered the same thing earlier and found it odd.
Turns out my initial finding was wrong and brought be down a convoluted rabbit hole to try and find more info but I havent edited that post as I would prefer people see all sides of the picture...that and I dont believe you can edit after a while on hho.

But yes nutritional related DCM has been seen this side of the pond...the numbers are still low and again there isn't enough exact proof yet to clarfy exact cause and effect on why this is happening....bar that some of these dogs essentailly recovered from this type of heart disease when changed onto a WSAVA complient food..the others of course have either died or are still being treated....normally dcm is a progressive, non curable disease that cannot be reversed...
Occasionally in the past in certain breeds  taurine supplementation helped occasionally with DCM...
which is why the taurine levels are being tested atm in these dogs in america...but theres no one in the Uk funding or investigating this on a large scale yet..and its unlikely to happen due to economics so instead we will wait for the FDA to gather and reports as its a larger pool.

Lower population size I suspect will also reduce the chances of proper in depth studies here as well....there was a mention of someone doing a paper and case study on it so time will tell whats actually produced.

Theres no harm is having a different opinion by the way. Its ment to be a discussion and I dont expect everyone to hold the same opinions as myself  so lone wolf away its not a bad thing!

Personally I'm just sharing my opinion....which is that there is no way in hell I would feed any of these types of foods to my dog at the moment (and by type I mean BEG foods... grainfree boutique or exotic ingredients foods...with grainfree being the food with the highest reports of issues)
Until we get an answer back on why we are seeing nutritionally responsive heart failure in some dogs while on these specific types of foods.... particularily when its a relatively new issue and NOT being seen on all foods....quite frankly I dont want to risk that sort of preventable issue.

I also would not personally advise feeding those foods until we can figure out why this is happening and encourage people to read into the FDA statements so far..because there are safer options on the market..even homemade food(which is know to be a challenge to balance nutritionally) appears to be less likely to cause these issues..theres a very small handful of those cases but its a tiny amount compared to the branded foods implicated.

Despite the fact we have had people feeding dogs scraps, homemade diets for decades...nutritional DCM has been incredibly rare in the past in veterinary....that's why so many alarm bells are ringing....something has changed.

I'm very glad the FDA have flagged it and finally raised awareness,the earliest report I've found on this so far has been from 2010..so this isnt a new issue but the reports are increasing as awareness of the risk increase.
As the awareness has been raised and more people get scans done on dogs that are on these foods.. more subclinical cases are being reported..so dogs showing signs of dcm on a heart scan are being seen before they go into heart failure....and yes these are anecdontal at this point as the FDA is still data gathering..but I dont think they should be ignored.

So far none of the worldwide brands(ll forgive the smaller boutique companies to a certain extent) implicated in the findings so far have done anything about it as far as I can see...

In my opinion if you want to produce a worldwide brand of dog food it is that companies responsibility to investigate and ensure that your food isnt potentially causing harm to your consumers,and yes the numbers are small compared to the amount consuming the food...but its still relevent..when issues like this are  reported repeatedly....and consistently involving certain brands..investigations should be launched  and the FDA are doing just that.

Ironically the larger brands have consistently pulled foods off the market over less severe issues...generally contaminatiom etc....but I guess thats a company policy thing...in the same way feeding trials and hiring qualified nutritionists to make the food profiles is a company policy thing....but thats just me being cynical I suspect.


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## Clodagh (14 March 2019)

I emasilled Millies Wolfheart to ask them aboujt it and got this reply...

_Thank you for contacting us. The scare surrounding legumes and their link to cardiomyopathy has originated from the production of some grain free dog foods within the US. These recipes, in order to increase the level of protein within the recipe, increased the proportion of legumes along with peas, soy beans and maize rather than meat and fish sources. These ingredients are very poor sources of amino acids and so could eventually lead to deficiencies of all kinds when used as the primary protein source in the recipe.

Taurine is an amino acid, it is produced naturally in the dog's body by precursor amino acids cysteine and methionine in the pancreas. Taurine itself is not an essential amino acid but rather the precursors to taurine are, as long as these precursors are supplied in correct amounts in the diet then taurine will be sufficient. Taurine as well as methionine and cysteine are found in good quality meat and fish ingredients including offal of which all of our recipes contain in high amounts and so there is no risk here of taurine deficiencies developing from the use of our recipes._

_Grains and legumes are very poor sources of amino acids which cannot be fully utilised or are not present at all. Plant based proteins are often incomplete and are largely indigestible by dogs. Due to this, when grains and legumes are used in the recipe to replace meat and fish ingredients, this can result in insufficient Taurine production in the body. Taurine is a type of amino acid that is important in heart health, alongside other things such as brain function. We only use high quality meat and fish proteins in our recipes, these are all complete chains of amino acids and therefore couldn't lead to taurine deficiency or then, in turn, heart conditions.

Our recipes are grain free and only contain small quantities of peas/chickpeas for fibre purposes in the form of pea husk. As we use meat & fish sources as our primary source of protein rather than plant based sources such as peas and lentils, we can be sure that adequate Taurine, along with its precursor amino acids are present in all of our recipes._

_Alongside this, the studies and white papers which brought this to light have all been regarding US pet foods and studies have not come to the same conclusion in the EU and UK as we follow very stringent regulations which provide minimums and maximums of each amino acid along with all other nutrients before a pet food can reach the market._


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## druid (14 March 2019)

Clodagh said:



			Thank you for contacting us. The scare surrounding legumes and their link to cardiomyopathy has originated from the production of *some grain free dog foods* within the US. These recipes, in order to increase the level of protein within the recipe, increased the proportion of legumes along with peas, soy beans and *maize* rather than meat and fish sources.
		
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If they can't even get this right I'm not sure how much faith I have in their statement to be honest.


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## druid (14 March 2019)

_Freshly prepared Lamb (20%), freshly prepared duck (20%), dried duck (18%), *sweet potato, potato,* dried lamb (5%), dried rabbit (3%), duck fat (3%), *pea fibre, lucerne*, vitamins, minerals, lamb gravy(1%), dried apple, carrot flakes, spinach flakes, lovage powder, seaweed meal), dried cranberry, aniseed and fenugreek, Glucosamine (175 mg/kg), Methylsulfonylmethane (175 mg/kg), Chondroitin Sulphate (125 mg/kg) , camomile powder, burdock root powder, peppermint, dandelion herb, thyme, marjoram, oregano, parsley, sage _

A randomly selected Millies Wolfheart recipe with two of the suspect ingredients in the first five (and proportions much higher than 4th and 5th if you bypass the marketing bumpf of "freshly prepared" which translates to "80% moisture". 

Of course, none of the grain free companies is going to say there is a problem - why would they? I think Aru's plan of rotating different feeds from different manufacturers is a sensible one currently


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## planete (15 March 2019)

I have had a good look at Royal Canin and the other foods recommended by WSAVA and find myself hugely conflicted.  The ingredients list reads like a chemist's recipe:

Dehydrated poultry protein, maize flour, maize, wheat flour, animal fats, wheat, hydrolysed animal proteins, beet pulp, fish oil, minerals, soya oil, yeasts and parts thereof, hydrolysed yeast (source of manno-oligosaccharides (0.05%). Crude ash: 6.1%. Crude fibre: 1.3%. Crude oil fats: 14%. Moisture: 0%. Protein: 25%.

I have tried to eat healthily all my life and have always believed that the more processed foods were the least healthy.  But heart disease is not exactly healthy either.  This is beginning to do my head in...

Rotating foods sounds good a priori.  But rotating three or four foods with suspect ingredients would probably not be much help so we still have to decide which ones may be least harmful...and I am stuck between science and my personal prejudices.


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## Clodagh (15 March 2019)

druid said:



_Freshly prepared Lamb (20%), freshly prepared duck (20%), dried duck (18%), *sweet potato, potato,* dried lamb (5%), dried rabbit (3%), duck fat (3%), *pea fibre, lucerne*, vitamins, minerals, lamb gravy(1%), dried apple, carrot flakes, spinach flakes, lovage powder, seaweed meal), dried cranberry, aniseed and fenugreek, Glucosamine (175 mg/kg), Methylsulfonylmethane (175 mg/kg), Chondroitin Sulphate (125 mg/kg) , camomile powder, burdock root powder, peppermint, dandelion herb, thyme, marjoram, oregano, parsley, sage _

A randomly selected Millies Wolfheart recipe with two of the suspect ingredients in the first five (and proportions much higher than 4th and 5th if you bypass the marketing bumpf of "freshly prepared" which translates to "80% moisture".

Of course, none of the grain free companies is going to say there is a problem - why would they? I think Aru's plan of rotating different feeds from different manufacturers is a sensible one currently
		
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They didn't reply to my bit about the peas being added!  I like it as a food, the dogs eat it with enthusiam and look great so I will continue to use it. I may well pop in a bag of something else here and there as well. My dogs have a lot of extras.


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## PapaverFollis (15 March 2019)

I'm just (just, it's actually going to be quite hard for me to do but it's an easy thing really) going to start introducing more variety to mine too.  Going to try IAMS and Arden Grange (which seemed better on the suspect ingredient front but not WSAVA) and phase out the Burns, got two big bags still so going to use them! And add some tinned meat for them for variety of protein source.  I think the Burns is pretty low risk BUT it does highlight that my current method of just feeding them the same thing over and over for ages is probably not the healthiest option.


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## TGM (15 March 2019)

It's interesting isn't it, we've been encouraged over the years to choose one brand/make of kibble and stick to it and not feed anything else alongside it.  But actually this means if there is any slight deficiency in the diet then the effects mount up over time.   In fact, it looks like a safer approach is to do what several people above suggest, which is to rotate brands/makes and not stick to one feed solely long term.


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## MotherOfChickens (15 March 2019)

planete said:



			The ingredients list reads like a chemist's recipe:

Dehydrated poultry protein, maize flour, maize, wheat flour, animal fats, wheat, hydrolysed animal proteins, beet pulp, fish oil, minerals, soya oil, yeasts and parts thereof, hydrolysed yeast (source of manno-oligosaccharides (0.05%). Crude ash: 6.1%. Crude fibre: 1.3%. Crude oil fats: 14%. Moisture: 0%. Protein: 25%.
.
		
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thats really not that scary tbh, I expect ingredients lists were far worse in the 90s! I wish I could chuck random stuff in to mix up the dogs' food but I can only really do that with one of them. I am going to try the sensitive one on Pro Plan sensitive. s druid said upthread, even those WSAVA brands that are grain free/'natural' contain a lot of legumes-so have these been tested?


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## ester (15 March 2019)

I was going to see that ingredients list seems pretty find and unchemisty to me?


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## Clodagh (15 March 2019)

planete said:



			Crude ash: 6.1%. Crude fibre: 1.3%. Crude oil fats: 14%. Moisture: 0%. Protein: 25%.
.
		
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Just to check - you know this isn't actually added product?


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## planete (15 March 2019)

Clodagh said:



			Just to check - you know this isn't actually added product?
		
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Yes, I do know.  I just copied the whole thing straight from the website and the protein and fat percentages are good.  What shocks me is the total absence of meat, the animal protein content is the result of chemical extraction and is supplemented by protein of vegetable origin.  Plus various yeasts again chemically manipulated as far as I understand it.  Perhaps a home recipe made by adding a bit of protein powder available from Holland and Barretts to some boiled wheat, oat and barley, sprinkled with some fish oil and some yeast would do the trick just as well?  it just does not fit my idea of food as wholesome, natural ingredients appropriate to a member of the canid family.


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## Clodagh (15 March 2019)

planete said:



			Yes, I do know.  I just copied the whole thing straight from the website and the protein and fat percentages are good.  What shocks me is the total absence of meat, the animal protein content is the result of chemical extraction and is supplemented by protein of vegetable origin.  Plus various yeasts again chemically manipulated as far as I understand it.  Perhaps a home recipe made by adding a bit of protein powder available from Holland and Barretts to some boiled wheat, oat and barley, sprinkled with some fish oil and some yeast would do the trick just as well?  it just does not fit my idea of food as wholesome, natural ingredients appropriate to a member of the canid family.
		
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Well I wouldn't feed it. Sorry for underestimating you!


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## druid (15 March 2019)

I'm going to rotate Eukanuba Platinum Performance and currently talking to the RC rep about their breeder program and what working options they have, although the breed specific Cocker looks interesting with specific supplementation for cardiac/DCM issues so may go that route. I will continue with the tinned (Rocco) and Raw they've had added. I want to wean to a grain inclusive diet now as come June the dogs move to the USA for a year so I need to be able to feed a grain inclusive diet there


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## Aru (28 June 2019)

https://www.fda.gov/animal-veterina...KlvqJWWYFa0svHFwsLBU-OVH8QkhqvQrV1TS7aqw#diet

Latest update from the FDA.


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## Hormonal Filly (28 June 2019)

I am really anal I suppose you could say about feeding our dogs.. They get fed Eden, which I thought was one of the best. They look cracking and love it.. but is this safe or are any of the percentages to high? Ah.. 

https://edenpetfoods.com/products/d...al-cuisine-working-and-sporting-dog-food.html


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## Stiff Knees (29 June 2019)

ForbiddenHorse said:



			I am really anal I suppose you could say about feeding our dogs.. They get fed Eden, which I thought was one of the best. They look cracking and love it.. but is this safe or are any of the percentages to high? Ah..

https://edenpetfoods.com/products/d...al-cuisine-working-and-sporting-dog-food.html

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I feed Eden too, have done for the last 6 years at least, one of our labs is 12y 4m and the other 2y 2m, they look really well on it. Our 17 year old, who we have just lost, was also on Eden and also did really well on it. They do get the occasional non rawhide treat so are not fed exclusively on Eden but it makes up each of their proper meals. Eden's customer service is excellent too, recently had to contact them about our youngster who is very athletic and having a late growth spurt,  and they couldn't have been more helpful. We do switch between the Country Cuisine and the Original Cuisine with a bit of the Wild Boar and Pheasant semi moist as a topper to add interest. I'm not going to stress over this, I think you can overthink things. I just see happy, healthy, energetic dogs who love their food, that'll do for me. ðŸ¾ðŸ¾ðŸ˜


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## ester (29 June 2019)

I don't think it is very fair to frame genuine, scientific FDA-level concern about a degenerative condition that often doesn't have early clinical signs as 'overthinking'.


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## Stiff Knees (29 June 2019)

ester said:



			I don't think it is very fair to frame genuine, scientific FDA-level concern about a degenerative condition that often doesn't have early clinical signs as 'overthinking'.
		
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I apologise, Ester, I meant no offence. What I should have said is that my opinion, valueless as it is, because frankly I'm not clever enough to be able to unravel the scientific study of this issue, is that I'd rather be in ignorant bliss, feeding my dogs a high quality food that they enjoy, that they look well on and has been fed to them long term with no apparent side effects. I realise that the key word there is apparent, because I just don't know if something is going on with my dogs until clinical signs become apparent. If I was more intelligent then perhaps I'd understand this better, but I am a bear of very little brain. I apologise again if I offended you. I did not intend to.


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## ester (29 June 2019)

you weren't offending me  but this is a genuine serious concern over grain free dog foods though obviously still a work in progress with regards to actual causes and one I do think people should be taking into consideration and not dismissing as it could be pretty important.

I do wonder if it will have an effect on how many times we hear that vets only recommend big brand feeds because they are paid to do so rather than the fact that those brands do at least have long term feeding trials behind them. As I think I said on this thread previously it has certainly been interesting seeing how it is discussed by vets and more american based sites.


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## Cinnamontoast (29 June 2019)

ester said:



			I don't think it is very fair to frame genuine, scientific FDA-level concern about a degenerative condition that often doesn't have early clinical signs as 'overthinking'.
		
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Talking of which, has anyone posted this link yet? FDA warning against some of the high end grain free foods.

https://whdh.com/news/fda-announces...tNaOiY72sINMWbu8ng5sAarQmB2TLQKfX5fQ6E4B9WAQo


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## Cinnamontoast (29 June 2019)

Aimless wondering here: my lot are on raw, mostly, I add kibble occasionally. They get scraps, bits of bread, pizza crust. Is it enough in terms of grain? Is there an 'ideal' percentage?


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## ester (29 June 2019)

Cinnamontoast said:



			Talking of which, has anyone posted this link yet? FDA warning against some of the high end grain free foods.

https://whdh.com/news/fda-announces...tNaOiY72sINMWbu8ng5sAarQmB2TLQKfX5fQ6E4B9WAQo

Click to expand...

Aru posted the FDA announcement with all the data (+graphs) just above, that is why I mentioned the FDA.


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## Hormonal Filly (29 June 2019)

So, what does everyone feed their dogs? Whatâ€™s the best food? 

We canâ€™t feed raw as have a fridge and freezer the size of a box in our rented place..


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## Cinnamontoast (29 June 2019)

ForbiddenHorse said:



			So, what does everyone feed their dogs? Whatâ€™s the best food?

We canâ€™t feed raw as have a fridge and freezer the size of a box in our rented place..
		
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I feed 90% raw, plus scraps. I'm wary of the stuff the vet pushes, it seems to be very low quality. Kibble is easy and my lot wouldn't care what they get, but it makes me feel better to feed stuff I can identify, although I can't be sure of the source/use of antibiotics/additives in the meat etc sometimes.


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## MotherOfChickens (30 June 2019)

With all respect cinnamon toast, how can you say the stuff the vet pushes is low quality and yet you feed pizza crust? I don't particularly care that you do but that does seem like a huge contradiction in terms to me. And who the heck doesn't eat their own pizza crust?ðŸ˜‰

there are very real concerns over the quality of some raw food, given the cat-TB issue in the U.K. I wouldn't trust a lot of the game being sold tbh. 

As can be seen from the chart, expensive doesn't necesssarily mean safe and yet these companies are seen as being better because they aren't the ones that vets push. The promise of food containing free range buffalo and tickling fairy caught salmon is more likely to get people handing over their cash than one that has years of research behind it. The marketing has been genius tbf,


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## planete (30 June 2019)

Cinnamontoast said:



			Aimless wondering here: my lot are on raw, mostly, I add kibble occasionally. They get scraps, bits of bread, pizza crust. Is it enough in terms of grain? Is there an 'ideal' percentage?
		
Click to expand...

From personal experience, each dog seems to be different when it comes to carb consumption.  My longdog thrives on none at all (but eats it happily)  while a farm bred border collie I had ran like the wind all day on muesli type dog food.  No science behind my post though.


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## Hormonal Filly (30 June 2019)

Iâ€™d love to feed raw but we rent a small cottage with a box fridge and freezer so have no room and no where to put another. :-(

Until we move out it has to be kibble.. whatâ€™s the best kibble available?


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## Aru (30 June 2019)

For raw and home cooker's the main app recommended to check nutritional stats of the diets and see if there are any deficiency issues is BalanceIt last I checked (its been a few months so not sure if that's changed) App was originally created by a vet nutritionist.

Kibble choices are a minefield. But at the moment the WSAVA recommendations are listed below.
WSAVA is the world small animal veterinary association for the record- so the global version for veterinary standards and advise to the public regards small animal matters. They are the ones who analyze and decide on recommendations for many of the small animal vet protocols and standards of care, changes to vaccines schedule advise-advised changes to 3 yearly on viral vaccines, etc. The world health organization would be the human equivalent for the e.u.

https://www.wsava.org/wsava/media/arpita-and-emma-editorial/selecting-the-best-food-for-your-pet.pdf

They don't list a list of pet foods because that would lead to them being accused of bias.The questions are interesting and make you think though so well worth a read....and the usual reason why they aren't all hit by the smaller companies is that it would cost too much for the manufacturer to do and make a good profit... the question then is what risk are you willing to take to support local and small business..
The guidelines provide an approach on how to choose foods with nutrition and science behind them and the questions can be asked to any brand....currently only a handful of companies currently mean all the recommended guidelines and shockingly enough they are the biggest manufacturers of pet food in the world.
If your anti the big 4/3 companies for whatever reason-boycotting nestle appears to be a popular one, then it's advised to read the list of qns and decide what areas your happy to compromise on and chose your foods that way.

The other fun thing to try and work out is why you are drawn to certain foods and what makes people think "this is a good food" and why ...try and look at the marketing behind the product. Then add the wsava list of qns and re-evaluate with a science cap on.... there's also a great list of units on the DCM facebook page on nutrition for those who want to delve a little deeper into the science versus spin. 
There's a massive amount of profit being made in the pet industry so marketing and consumer manipulation has been pretty interesting to watch over the last decade or so.


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## Cinnamontoast (30 June 2019)

ForbiddenHorse said:



			Iâ€™d love to feed raw but we rent a small cottage with a box fridge and freezer so have no room and no where to put another. :-(

Until we move out it has to be kibble.. whatâ€™s the best kibble available?
		
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I've ranked the foods from best to worst on this website, worth a look. https://www.allaboutdogfood.co.uk/the-dog-food-directory


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## ester (30 June 2019)

I do wonder if they will change any of their recommendations based on this info as iirc they rate Acana pretty highly


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## planete (30 June 2019)

And Orijen, quite a few varieties of the pea family in it.


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## Hormonal Filly (30 June 2019)

Cinnamontoast said:



			I've ranked the foods from best to worst on this website, worth a look. https://www.allaboutdogfood.co.uk/the-dog-food-directory

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I use that website and is why we feed Eden, as itâ€™s rated at 93%

The owner of Eden has said the following about this. Any comments on it? Iâ€™m unsure if heâ€™s correct.


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## ester (30 June 2019)

That's a pretty rubbish answer tbh that wouldn't fill me with confidence. He clearly hasn't read any of the FDA information easily available as if it had he would understand why 'genetics' doesn't fully account for what seems to be occurring. The whole point is that it has been happening in dog breeds without previous genetic predispensation to DCM. It strikes me as a very head in sand response tbh.


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## BlackadderUK (1 July 2019)

An interesting view from Linda P Case.

https://thesciencedog.com/2018/08/30/the-heart-of-the-matter/


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## MotherOfChickens (1 July 2019)

BlackadderUK said:



			An interesting view from Linda P Case.

https://thesciencedog.com/2018/08/30/the-heart-of-the-matter/

Click to expand...


she's not really saying anything that hasn't been said on here? that we don't know why or how but that it needs investigating. All the FDA are saying is here are the stats-XYZ foods have been associated with X cases.


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## skinnydipper (1 July 2019)

Dr Jean Dodds' response to FDA statement.

https://drjeandoddspethealthresource.tumblr.com/post/176405475391/fda-dog-heart-disease?fbclid=IwAR3x1ndF9GH7Vdvig_FMRrybYcxkjH4I7oOA-MFHN_NzI-1BVYnTYVqHRUY


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## Hormonal Filly (2 August 2019)

Bumping this up again.
I've asked what Edens percentage of chick pea is, because funnily enough that isn't disclosed. 

By the sound of it, Eden and Millies Wolfheart feeds haven't been trialed. Using the website below, it means, they should feed to minimum of 8 dogs for 6 months. Dogs have to maintain their body weight, pass a veterinary exam, and have normal blood chemistry parameters at the end of the trial.. Millies said they'd get back to me as don't KNOW what a feed trial means?! Link

I am concerned, owning a cocker which is one of the breeds on the list and worried I could be feeding him something that could make him ill in his lifetime. Considering changing to a grain based food, with good levels of meat but seems impossible? Considering raw, but it looks to be rather expensive!


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## SpringArising (2 August 2019)

MotherOfChickens said:



			With all respect cinnamon toast, how can you say the stuff the vet pushes is low quality and yet you feed pizza crust? I don't particularly care that you do but that does seem like a huge contradiction in terms to me.
		
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I think it would only be a contradiction if CT's dogs main diet consisted of pizza crust.

I feed my dog good quality kibbles (I think - currently feeding the Milles Wolfheart 80% meat one), because I want his main meals to be quality. But he still gets random tidbits of rubbish occasionally.


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## Clodagh (2 August 2019)

ForbiddenHorse said:



			Bumping this up again.
I've asked what Edens percentage of chick pea is, because funnily enough that isn't disclosed.

By the sound of it, Eden and Millies Wolfheart feeds haven't been trialed. Using the website below, it means, they should feed to minimum of 8 dogs for 6 months. Dogs have to maintain their body weight, pass a veterinary exam, and have normal blood chemistry parameters at the end of the trial.. Millies said they'd get back to me as don't KNOW what a feed trial means?! Link

I am concerned, owning a cocker which is one of the breeds on the list and worried I could be feeding him something that could make him ill in his lifetime. Considering changing to a grain based food, with good levels of meat but seems impossible? Considering raw, but it looks to be rather expensive!
		
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I too looked for a decent grain and meat food, but they don't exist, so far as I can see.
Edited to say I should say meat with grain. Mine have been on the 50/50 MWH, but now going on to 60/40. the 80/20 is just too expensive with four.


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## Stiff Knees (2 August 2019)

ForbiddenHorse said:



			Bumping this up again.
I've asked what Edens percentage of chick pea is, because funnily enough that isn't disclosed.

By the sound of it, Eden and Millies Wolfheart feeds haven't been trialed. Using the website below, it means, they should feed to minimum of 8 dogs for 6 months. Dogs have to maintain their body weight, pass a veterinary exam, and have normal blood chemistry parameters at the end of the trial.. Millies said they'd get back to me as don't KNOW what a feed trial means?! Link

I am concerned, owning a cocker which is one of the breeds on the list and worried I could be feeding him something that could make him ill in his lifetime. Considering changing to a grain based food, with good levels of meat but seems impossible? Considering raw, but it looks to be rather expensive!
		
Click to expand...

According to the food composition listed on their website the Country Cuisine is 3.5% chickpea.
ETA 2 of mine had been on Eden for more than 5 years, both had blood tests within that period, for other medical reasons, all parameters were normal, which I appreciate is not a clinical trial but...


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