# Chaff or no Chaff?



## rug~addict (29 October 2014)

I was wondering how many of you feed chaff? And what are your reasons for feeding/not feeding it?


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## Tiddlypom (29 October 2014)

I was thinking of starting a similar thread, so thanks for saving me the trouble!

I don't feed chaff, and never have. I don't see the point of it, it's mind boggling seeing all the various permutations of chaff at the feed merchants.


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## AdorableAlice (29 October 2014)

Plain chaff I find useful.  A handful in oats or as a carrier for supplements.


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## Suelin (29 October 2014)

I feed a handful of our own chopped hay chaff in every feed.  It stops them bolting their food and makes them chew more.  I've always done this but wouldn't feed it as a feed as such.  It has a purpose, that's all.  I certainly wouldn't buy the stuff.


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## paddyrose (30 October 2014)

I now prefer Allan and Page fast fibre. Soaked with double the amount of water to pellets. Ready in less than a mi ute.Seems like they are getting a lot but its mostly water. Less messy than chaff and all mine love it!


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## ester (30 October 2014)

no, although sometimes I find it a bit odd still not feeding it. 
Speedibbet and oats here and not bolting, he takes bloomin ages!


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## AAR (30 October 2014)

Connemara only really gets chaff!! Big scoop of Hifi molasses free chaff (its got nuts sprinkled in it.) in the morning. The same in the evening with 1/2 scoop of midlings.

Other hunter refuses to eat feed if its got chaff in it so he goes without. Big scoop of nuts for breakfast and 2 big scoops midlings in the evening. Hes a fussy fussy eater so he gets anything he will eat and this seems to work for him. I hate it as I think they should have chaff in every feed but he won't even pick round the chaff he just flatly refuses to touch it.


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## criso (30 October 2014)

I don't feed it.  
I don't feed alfalfa as the calcium levels round here are too high.
I avoid molasses and other additives such as mould inhibitors and preservatives etc found in many chaffs.

So I could feed plain straw chaff but I have 2 tbs who while not poor doers are good doers either so am not trying to bulk out feeds in fact one won't eat a big feed.  I have fed alfalfa as i find it a useful feed but when tend to go for the pellets which have less added.


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## rug~addict (30 October 2014)

Ive always thought we feed chaff to slow them down.  So why are some of you using soaked products instead?


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## PorkChop (30 October 2014)

No, I never feed chaff, have never seen the point of it


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## be positive (30 October 2014)

rug~addict said:



			Ive always thought we feed chaff to slow them down.  So why are some of you using soaked products instead?
		
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Chaff would have been used traditionally to slow down eating when horses were kept on high grain diets, oats and barley as the main feed so it did need something to help them chew, feeding has changed so much over the years, more people feed a high fibre low grain diet so it really is just a filler to bulk out what is in the bucket, I haven't fed it for some time as I just don't see the point with modern feeding methods. 
The choice is amazing so many people are obviously happy paying ££s for what is basically chopped hay/ straw/ alfalfa  and  in many cases lots of molasses to make it palatable, I prefer to give mine more hay.


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## wench (30 October 2014)

dont feed it unless it's necessary, otherwise a waste of money.

The only time I've really used it was when my horse had got a virus, and had gone very thin, and he was on a weight gain feed regime. I added in the chaff as he was being fed the max dose of balancer, conditioning cubes, and outshine. The chaff helped make his feeds up to 2kg, and added some extra calories in, he needed as much as possible. Apart from that, or as a token feed, I dont bother.


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## ellie11987 (30 October 2014)

I was always in the 'no' camp until recently. I used to feed speedibeet but my horse felt very 'flat' to ride and had some tummy issues. I started giving a scoop of alfa a oil as she came in before riding which seemed to help so I've swapped the beet out of her main feeds also. She seems better on this, but I know a lot who handle fast fibre or speedibeet better. 

I would always feed a bulk either a chaff or beet but the one thing I do find bizarre is when people start feeding multiple types of chaff together as for a bog standard chaff I don't believe they provide much nutritional value.


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## EquiEquestrian556 (30 October 2014)

I feed Just Chop to ours along with their hard feed & supplements, I think it's a good source of fiber and stops them bolting it down, plus it's natural, unlike most of the stuff we feed our horses these days.


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## Jnhuk (30 October 2014)

Mine get oat straw with their fast fibre. I like it as gives them something to chew and takes them longer to eat their feed and makes their token feeds seem more substantial without adding any calories etc.... I am all for something that means better saliva production to help prevent stomach ulcers.


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## Tnavas (31 October 2014)

Tiddlypom said:



			I was thinking of starting a similar thread, so thanks for saving me the trouble!

I don't feed chaff, and never have. I don't see the point of it, it's mind boggling seeing all the various permutations of chaff at the feed merchants.
		
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Whenever you feed, 75% of your feed should be forage (fibre) based. Forage/fibre opens up the mixture spreading the concentrate over a larger area so that it is digested properly. It slows the movement of the food through the digestive system allowing the digestive enzymes/bacteria etc to mix with the food and do a better, safer job.

Chaff/Sugarbeet also slow down your horses eating therefore more saliva is added to the feed right at the start of digestion.

By slowing the movement of feed through the digestive system you reduce the risk of hind gut acidosis.

A small feed of forage/fibre before riding also prevents stomach acid from sloshing around onto the upper non glandular part of the stomach, reducing the risk of ulcers. Chaff floats on the surface of the stomach acid.


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## Tnavas (31 October 2014)

be positive said:



			Chaff would have been used traditionally to slow down eating when horses were kept on high grain diets, oats and barley as the main feed so it did need something to help them chew, feeding has changed so much over the years, more people feed a high fibre low grain diet so it really is just a filler to bulk out what is in the bucket, I haven't fed it for some time as I just don't see the point with modern feeding methods. 
The choice is amazing so many people are obviously happy paying ££s for what is basically chopped hay/ straw/ alfalfa  and  in many cases lots of molasses to make it palatable, I prefer to give mine more hay.
		
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Having done an Equine Nutrition Diploma course recently you are so very wrong. The directive is to ALWAYS feed a high fibre diet, modern foods are causing a lot of dietary problems because they have minimal fibre.

A horses digestive system is designed to work most successfully on FIBRE only.


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## HaffiesRock (31 October 2014)

I am another who thinks chaff is a waste of money. My ponies get unmollased sugarbeet, Linseed and a balancer at the minute, alongside adlib hay.


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## acorn92x (31 October 2014)

Chaff is all my pony gets as she lives off of fresh air, requires no extra energy and just needs something palatable for her to have her Moody Mare and Biotin suppliments with. I feed HiFi Lite and have never had a problem with this.


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## Tnavas (31 October 2014)

HaffiesRock said:



			I am another who thinks chaff is a waste of money. My ponies get unmollased sugarbeet, Linseed and a balancer at the minute, alongside adlib hay.
		
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To be honest both unmolassed Sugarbeet and chaff would have about the same feed value as each other. However their value lies in the fact that both are forage/fibre and essential for healthy digestion. Chaff would possibly work out cheaper in the long run.


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## Tiddlypom (31 October 2014)

Tnavas said:



			Whenever you feed, 75% of your feed should be forage (fibre) based.
		
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Agree with this, as a minimum. Should probably have qualified my earlier post by stating that my neds live out, with additional soaked hay as necessary. They get twice daily tiny feeds of a handful of soaked hi fibre cubes with added micronised linseed, pro hoof and salt. They will already have a gut full of fibre when they eat their hard feeds, so not need to add more. They don't bolt their feeds.

It's really the horses who already have plentiful grazing and forage, but whose owners still like to give big bucket feeds on top, where I find the addition of all this expensive chaff to be a mystery.


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## Coblover63 (31 October 2014)

Funnily enough I said to my OH last night "there is something about a bucket!"  We have our ClydieX in at the moment because of an abscess and he is a good weight and just picking at the ad lib hay he is left all day or all night, so he's not particularly hungry in this mild weather.  He is behaving so well with being stuck in, amenable and friendly.   Yet, when I put a handful of chaff and nuts into a BUCKET, he instantly becomes impatient and ravenous, kicking at the door... "I want it NOW!!!"

I'm sure it all about conditioning....  he gets "breakfast" and "tea" but the nutrition he gains is minimal.  All mine get a token feed.  If they were brought in at night and just left with as much has as they could eat all night, they wouldn't settle until they'd seen that bucket!  (trug, actually )  So they get a little cheap chaff, just to settle their minds and not their tums!!


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## PolarSkye (31 October 2014)

What a timely thread!  I was just about to post the same thing . . . tbh, when we get to the end of this bag of chaff, I am not buying any more.  Kal isn't a greedy eater - he doesn't bolt his food - and he gets plenty of forage . . . the D&H ERS Pellets, linseed and (in winter) copra should be plenty . . . alongside his ad lib hay (and haylage in winter) and grass in field.

Will also save me buying yet another blue barrel as it seems we have one or two resident rodents and I can't have feed sacks out left loose.  No more chaff means I can use that barrel for the copra .

P


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## ester (31 October 2014)

Tnavas, surely that depends on the chaff you are using, speedibeet is 12 DE MJ/Kg, meadow hay is usually 8-11. Chaff might work out cheaper in the long run if I just chopped up some of his hay but there are other reasons for feeding beet. 
I do think it is also important to remember that most horses are not being fed a bucket feed in isolation, they usually have hay before and after anyway. Dry weight Frank gets approx 40:60 beet: oats obviously the beet then expands so does most of the advantages your 75% is giving you in volume at least.


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## ester (31 October 2014)

honeychop oat chaff is DE 6...


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## Palindrome (31 October 2014)

Tnavas said:



			Whenever you feed, 75% of your feed should be forage (fibre) based. Forage/fibre opens up the mixture spreading the concentrate over a larger area so that it is digested properly. It slows the movement of the food through the digestive system allowing the digestive enzymes/bacteria etc to mix with the food and do a better, safer job.

Chaff/Sugarbeet also slow down your horses eating therefore more saliva is added to the feed right at the start of digestion.

By slowing the movement of feed through the digestive system you reduce the risk of hind gut acidosis.

A small feed of forage/fibre before riding also prevents stomach acid from sloshing around onto the upper non glandular part of the stomach, reducing the risk of ulcers. Chaff floats on the surface of the stomach acid.
		
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The stomach will empty when it is full so what makes feed go slowly is feeding hard feed in small amounts, so in that respect chaff bulking out the hard feed won't be helpful.

Furthermore, the saliva produced during chewing doesn't serve to digest but only lubricates. The amount of saliva produced by the horse eating his bucket feed will be negligible compared to the amount produced by eating forage.

All in all it depends on the individual horse's needs like always and what the owner is feeding. I feed high fibre nuts with some supplements and don't add a chaff. Now if I was feeding straight oats I would probably add a handful of alfalfa chaff if only to balance phosphorus to calcium.


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## Tnavas (31 October 2014)

ester said:



			Tnavas, surely that depends on the chaff you are using, speedibeet is 12 DE MJ/Kg, meadow hay is usually 8-11. Chaff might work out cheaper in the long run if I just chopped up some of his hay but there are other reasons for feeding beet. 
I do think it is also important to remember that most horses are not being fed a bucket feed in isolation, they usually have hay before and after anyway. Dry weight Frank gets approx 40:60 beet: oats obviously the beet then expands so does most of the advantages your 75% is giving you in volume at least.
		
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Regardless of hay and grazing, adding chaff or beet to the feed slows the passage of the food through the digestive system allowing enzymes and bacteria to do their work properly. This helps reduce the potential for colic and also hind gut acidosis.


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## PolarSkye (31 October 2014)

Tnavas said:



			Having done an Equine Nutrition Diploma course recently you are so very wrong. The directive is to ALWAYS feed a high fibre diet, modern foods are causing a lot of dietary problems because they have minimal fibre.

A horses digestive system is designed to work most successfully on FIBRE only.
		
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But doesn't the decision to feed chaff (or not) depend on what else goes in the bucket and what is fed alongside?  Copra, for example, is a "modern" feed (only been around for about 20 years) and is entirely fibre-based.  Whether or not to feed chaff is a decision the individual horse owner must make based on any number of factors, including (but not limited to) access to turnout, quality of grazing, other forages, metabolism, workload, hard feed, bedding, blah, blah, blah.

P


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## PolarSkye (31 October 2014)

Tnavas said:



			Regardless of hay and grazing, adding chaff or beet to the feed slows the passage of the food through the digestive system allowing enzymes and bacteria to do their work properly. This helps reduce the potential for colic and also hind gut acidosis.
		
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No argument from me that slowing the passage of feed is essential, but it can be achieved in other ways than feeding chaff . . . 

P


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## Tnavas (31 October 2014)

PolarSkye said:



			But doesn't the decision to feed chaff (or not) depend on what else goes in the bucket and what is fed alongside?  Copra, for example, is a "modern" feed (only been around for about 20 years) and is entirely fibre-based.  Whether or not to feed chaff is a decision the individual horse owner must make based on any number of factors, including (but not limited to) access to turnout, quality of grazing, other forages, metabolism, workload, hard feed, bedding, blah, blah, blah.

P
		
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See above post!


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## Maesfen (31 October 2014)

I don't as a rule feed a chaff but if I had to, the only one I would want to feed would be the Graze On one which is chopped grass and nothing else added, likewise their grass pellets; both good clean feeds with no additives.


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## ester (31 October 2014)

Tnavas said:



			Regardless of hay and grazing, adding chaff or beet to the feed slows the passage of the food through the digestive system allowing enzymes and bacteria to do their work properly. This helps reduce the potential for colic and also hind gut acidosis.
		
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but my point is that there isn't necessarily any need to add it to the bucket unless you are witholding forage either side.


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## PolarSkye (31 October 2014)

Tnavas said:



			See above post!
		
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I'm confused.  It's perfectly possible to provide a horse with a high fibre, low sugar, low starch diet (in order to promote good digestive health/minimize hind gut acidosis) without feeding it chaff . . . 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of many of the "modern" feeds on the market today, but it still possible to navigate through the mine field and with the application of common sense provide a healthy, balanced diet for our horses . . . without chaff.

P


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## PolarSkye (31 October 2014)

ester said:



			but my point is that there isn't necessarily any need to add it to the bucket unless you are witholding forage either side.
		
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This.

P


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## Tnavas (31 October 2014)

ester said:



			but my point is that there isn't necessarily any need to add it to the bucket unless you are witholding forage either side.
		
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You still need to make that concentrate 'safe' for the horse to eat and you do that by adding a forage/fibre to the mix. Regardless of what the horse has eaten either side of the feed you need to ensure the bucket feed is as close to natural as possible to ensure that it is safely digested.

Polar skype, I think you have misunderstood my post, I suggest feeding a good forage/fibre source such as chaff or beet pulp with a concentrate food. Copra though fibre is very fine and generally not fed in sufficient quantity to be of much help.


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## PolarSkye (31 October 2014)

Tnavas said:



			You still need to make that concentrate 'safe' for the horse to eat and you do that by adding a forage/fibre to the mix. Regardless of what the horse has eaten either side of the feed you need to ensure the bucket feed is as close to natural as possible to ensure that it is safely digested.
		
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Sigh.  But it still depends on what is actually IN the bucket . . . and whether the bucket feed is fed alongside ad lib forage (of any description - grazing, hay/haylage/readigrass or similar).

P


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## Tnavas (31 October 2014)

PolarSkye said:



			Sigh.  But it still depends on what is actually IN the bucket . . . and whether the bucket feed is fed alongside ad lib forage (of any description - grazing, hay/haylage/readigrass or similar).

P
		
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So what is IN your bucket? Many modern feeds once wet become a sludgy pulp which doesn't travel well through the digestive system.

An experiment I give my students to do is to put various different feeds into beakers of water and leave for 20mins, the average time food is in the stomach. 

When horse and pony cubes first hit the market the cases of colic increased as people fed them on their own, they turned to sludge and got themselves jammed up in the caecum. Feeding chaff or bran (at the time) or Sugarbeet prevented this from happening.


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## PolarSkye (31 October 2014)

Tnavas said:



			When horse and pony cubes first hit the market the cases of colic increased as people fed them *on their own*, they turned to sludge and got themselves jammed up in the caecum. Feeding chaff or bran (at the time) or Sugarbeet prevented this from happening.
		
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And here's my issue/confusion . . . you are assuming that people feed "nuts" *on their own* . . . which is a bit of a leap (well, ok, it's a chasm).  I know my own horse goes into his stable, tucks into his hay/haylage and THEN gets his dinner . . . which contains a pelleted feed, linseed, chaff (for now, but not for long) and (in the winter) copra and/or sugarbeet.  He has plenty of grass in the field, which is supplemented (when necessary) with hay and haylage so that he is NEVER without access to forage to keep his gut moving.  Oh, and he is bedded on straw, which he can (and does) also nibble.  

Here's the thing . . . he isn't unique or special and neither am I in the way I keep/manage him.  I doubt very much that removing chaff from his bucket feed with have any effect at all . . . his gut isn't going to suddenly seize up because there isn't some form of chopped straw passing through his system for the whole five minutes it takes to eat his dinner.

P


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## Tnavas (31 October 2014)

PolarSkye said:



			And here's my issue/confusion . . . you are assuming that people feed "nuts" *on their own* . . . which is a bit of a leap (well, ok, it's a chasm).  I know my own horse goes into his stable, tucks into his hay/haylage and THEN gets his dinner . . . which contains a pelleted feed, linseed, chaff (for now, but not for long) and (in the winter) copra and/or sugarbeet.  He has plenty of grass in the field, which is supplemented (when necessary) with hay and haylage so that he is NEVER without access to forage to keep his gut moving.  Oh, and he is bedded on straw, which he can (and does) also nibble.  

Here's the thing . . . he isn't unique or special and neither am I in the way I keep/manage him.  I doubt very much that removing chaff from his bucket feed with have any effect at all . . . his gut isn't going to suddenly seize up because there isn't some form of chopped straw passing through his system for the whole five minutes it takes to eat his dinner.

P
		
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I understand where you are coming from, you do say though that you also feed Sugarbeet, this works just as well as chaff and was what we fed for many years to all our horses as we had no access to a chaff cutter, buying bagged chaff didn't exist. 

The concentrate itself, what sort of texture is it, I sited the pony cube thing because like many modern feeds it was a reconstituted food, being grass and grains ground to poder and then glued back together again. Many extruded feeds are just like that, which is the reason for students doing the experiment with the concentrate and water.

Regardless of wether I am feeding a stabled horse or one that is out in the paddock I always add a forage/fibre to the feed and to date no horses in my care have ever had colic, over 40+yrs these amount to hundreds.


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## be positive (31 October 2014)

Tnavas said:



			Having done an Equine Nutrition Diploma course recently you are so very wrong. The directive is to ALWAYS feed a high fibre diet, modern foods are causing a lot of dietary problems because they have minimal fibre.

A horses digestive system is designed to work most successfully on FIBRE only.
		
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You have misinterpreted my post slightly, which was stating why people used to feed chaff to horses who were on oats or barley as the main part of the diet, to slow down eating, my horses do not get chaff as they have ad lib hay and a token hi fibre feed, fast fibre usually which does not require chaff to be added, they are on almost 100% fibre, some oil is added with vits and mins. 
My view on modern diets is probably wrong as I thought people did know, on here at least, that it should be fibre based and that mixes are to be avoided due to the high sugar content, I must remember that not everyone is aware.


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## ester (31 October 2014)

Tnavas said:



			So what is IN your bucket? Many modern feeds once wet become a sludgy pulp which doesn't travel well through the digestive system.

.
		
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but sugarbeet is different?

PS I think we are on the same hymn sheet here 

I really don't think that if Frank had his 2 x 1 kg scoops of oats in the morning/pm which would take him < 5 min in between his ad lib hay/grass it would soon get mixed up with fibre anyway.


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## Tnavas (31 October 2014)

Fast fibre is just glorified straw, linseed husks and Sugarbeet, how does that compare price wish with a bag of meadow or Lucerne chaff.
Composition: 
Nutritionally Improved Straw, Oat Feed, Unmolassed Beet Pulp, Linseed Expeller (7.4%), Grass Meal, Di-calcium Phosphate, Soya (bean) Oil, Salt, Calcium Carbonate, Mint, Yeast, Fructo-oligosaccharides


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## PolarSkye (31 October 2014)

Tnavas said:



			Fast fibre is just glorified straw, linseed husks and Sugarbeet, how does that compare price wish with a bag of meadow or Lucerne chaff.
Composition: 
Nutritionally Improved Straw, Oat Feed, Unmolassed Beet Pulp, Linseed Expeller (7.4%), Grass Meal, Di-calcium Phosphate, Soya (bean) Oil, Salt, Calcium Carbonate, Mint, Yeast, Fructo-oligosaccharides
		
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But feeding sugarbeet instead of chaff is ok?  Like I said, I'm confused . . . and in disagreement.

P


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## Tnavas (31 October 2014)

PolarSkye said:



			But feeding sugarbeet instead of chaff is ok?  Like I said, I'm confused . . . and in disagreement.

P
		
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You've got me confused too!  yes feeding Sugarbeet is great as it is also an excellent fibre source. So long as there is a good fibre source with the concentrate to open it up, spread it out so that it doesn't go through the digestive system in a block of concentrate.


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## ester (31 October 2014)

Tnavas said:



			Fast fibre is just glorified straw, linseed husks and Sugarbeet, how does that compare price wish with a bag of meadow or Lucerne chaff.
Composition: 
Nutritionally Improved Straw, Oat Feed, Unmolassed Beet Pulp, Linseed Expeller (7.4%), Grass Meal, Di-calcium Phosphate, Soya (bean) Oil, Salt, Calcium Carbonate, Mint, Yeast, Fructo-oligosaccharides
		
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I know, having fed it in the past when having a good doer out of work to carry supplements being about as a low a DE as you can get and it being reasonably palatable. 

I have to say I cannot see how it - or sugar beet wouldn't travel well through the digestive system?


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## Tnavas (31 October 2014)

ester said:



			I have to say I cannot see how it - or sugar beet wouldn't travel well through the digestive system?
		
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Of course it will travel well through the digestive system, it's fibre, not sure what you are meaning.

My comment about it being just glorified straw. Why would you pay so much for this sort of mix when you can supply chaff and beet pulp at a fraction of the price?


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## rug~addict (1 November 2014)

Well I decided to give my boy his tea tonight minus the ready grass I usually give. What a difference!  Usually his food gets kicked and pawed all over the stable while he digs through it. But he just ate it from the bowl! I guess chaff isn't something he likes!


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## tashcat (1 November 2014)

I've always fed mine chaff and I don't think it's something I would change.

The mains reasons for this are: 

-His digestive system is used to it
-I personally believe it slows his eating down, stopping his bolting
-Most of his diet should be forage
-The roughage helps his digestive system 

But that's only me, I think it differs depending on the situation and horse.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (3 November 2014)

sometimes yes sometimes no...

Bruce is only getting an alfalfa based chaff atm as its the only calories he needs and id rather he got it from fibre than a cube of dubious content! it damps down enough to hold his supps.

Fig-yes as he gets big fibre based feeds to nibble at for hours and will eat more fibre this way than a small high calorie feed and then hay(which he picks at and doesnt really get stuck in to). He holds his weight better this way.

Goofy-yes currently just to give him a bit of something to bulk up his small ration of winergy growth really to keep him occupied whilst the other eat. When grown up and in full work he will prob just get a scoop before work to line his tummy but not in his actual feed as suspect he will be on calorie watch when he stops growing and he has no issues hoovering down hay!!!!!!


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## Spring Feather (3 November 2014)

I have never seen chaff for sale over here in North America.  I don't feed chaff anyway and wouldn't even if it was available as I see it as totally pointless within my feeding programme.


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## Tnavas (3 November 2014)

Spring Feather said:



			I have never seen chaff for sale over here in North America.  I don't feed chaff anyway and wouldn't even if it was available as I see it as totally pointless within my feeding programme.
		
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What do you mix with your concentrates to bulk up the ration?


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## criso (3 November 2014)

I grew up in a non chaff environment. People had stopped cutting their own and chaff cutters were something referred to in old pony books however bagged chaff were not available.  Apart from Spillers pony nuts it was all straights own brand from the local feed merchants.  

It was when I returned to riding in the 90's after a long break that I came across molassed chaff and alfalfa for the first time.


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## Tnavas (3 November 2014)

criso said:



			I grew up in a non chaff environment. People had stopped cutting their own and chaff cutters were something referred to in old pony books however bagged chaff were not available.  Apart from Spillers pony nuts it was all straights own brand from the local feed merchants.  

It was when I returned to riding in the 90's after a long break that I came across molassed chaff and alfalfa for the first time.
		
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I remember that time, we fed Sugarbeet in its place with no problems that people seem to have invented now


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## Spring Feather (3 November 2014)

Tnavas said:



			What do you mix with your concentrates to bulk up the ration?
		
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I feed balancers.


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## criso (3 November 2014)

Tnavas said:



			I remember that time, we fed Sugarbeet in its place with no problems that people seem to have invented now
		
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We only fed sugarbeet (full fat version) in the winter. It came out with the Jute Stable rugs and old fashioned New Zealands.


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## Tnavas (3 November 2014)

Spring Feather said:



			I feed balancers.
		
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BAlancers come in various types, are you referring to the type that is highly concentrated compound of vitamins, minerals & proteins which are fed in a very small quantity? Or the type that is a full feed of Carbs, proteins, vitamins & minerals. 

Neither contain any significant fibre content.

criso - we fed it year round to everything, horses, ponies, in or out. We never had any of these current modern problems - everyone was always sound and all worked well


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## khalswitz (3 November 2014)

Palindrome said:



			The stomach will empty when it is full so what makes feed go slowly is feeding hard feed in small amounts, so in that respect chaff bulking out the hard feed won't be helpful.

Furthermore, the saliva produced during chewing doesn't serve to digest but only lubricates. The amount of saliva produced by the horse eating his bucket feed will be negligible compared to the amount produced by eating forage.

All in all it depends on the individual horse's needs like always and what the owner is feeding. I feed high fibre nuts with some supplements and don't add a chaff. Now if I was feeding straight oats I would probably add a handful of alfalfa chaff if only to balance phosphorus to calcium.
		
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Just wanted to point out that saliva does begin digestion - it contains amylase, amongst other enzymes, which begin digestion of food prior to it hitting the stomach. Hence why dry chaff is good as it promotes saliva production (over feeding wet feeds, especially if made sloppy is bad because of this).

Regarding chaff, if you don't need bulk, then you don't necessarily need it. We feed all of ours chaff before riding to stop acid splash, and feed chaff to dry out the copra so feeds are not too damp, also for bulking out.


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## criso (3 November 2014)

Tnavas said:



			criso - we fed it year round to everything, horses, ponies, in or out. We never had any of these current modern problems - everyone was always sound and all worked well
		
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Sugarbeet was never fed to any of the good doers only the ones that needed a bit more help over winter.  There was too much grass around in south devon for anything to need weight gain in summer.

I could argue that we had none of the modern problems, never saw a colic case and one laminitis over many years and we never fed chaff (the riding school ponies got a scoop of oats when they worked nothing else) however I suspect it is much more complex than one feed item.


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## NZJenny (3 November 2014)

We are lucky here to still have access to good quality chaff that hasn't been mucked around with.  It still comes in a hessian chaff sack.

I feed a small amount of luceren chaff every day to everyone, along with oats and hemp seed cake.  They are on grass 24/7, but have been on the same patch of grass for years.  Some variety in the diet is never a bad thing, I think.

Feed routines will always depend on making the best of what is available.


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## Spring Feather (3 November 2014)

Tnavas said:



			BAlancers come in various types, are you referring to the type that is highly concentrated compound of vitamins, minerals & proteins which are fed in a very small quantity?
		
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Yes




			Neither contain any significant fibre content.
		
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I don't buy hardfeed to give my horses fibre; they have ad-lib alfalfa hay and tons of grazing.


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## Palindrome (3 November 2014)

khalswitz said:



			Just wanted to point out that saliva does begin digestion - it contains amylase, amongst other enzymes, which begin digestion of food prior to it hitting the stomach. Hence why dry chaff is good as it promotes saliva production (over feeding wet feeds, especially if made sloppy is bad because of this).
		
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No, it doesn't in horses, as per the equine nutrition course of the University of Edinburgh (free to enroll online on Coursera). There is no digestion in the stomach either, it starts in the small intestine in the horse.

As per the same course, bulking out the hard feed is not advised, just feeding small meals of hard feed, up to 2kg per meal if I remember well (am not saying they say don't feed chaff but they say that hard feed meal should be small as not to overload the stomach.


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## Arizahn (3 November 2014)

criso said:



			We only fed sugarbeet (full fat version) in the winter. It came out with the Jute Stable rugs and old fashioned New Zealands.
		
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I feed this, along with whole oats, linseed oil and apple cider vinegar


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## budley95 (3 November 2014)

Nope, alfaalfa, mollases and barley all wind my boy up. He's a nightmare on most chaffs. He gets a senior balancer and hay. 

Fast fibre if I need to up his fibre intake and calm and condition if he drops any weight. Feedings complicated enough... why make up straights now when you can just give them a balancer if you have an everyday happy hacker occasional local unaffiliated comp horse? At least that's my theory!


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## amandaco2 (3 November 2014)

Nope. Alfalfa makes mine footy.
if I want fibre I feed more hay. 
Bucket feed is soaked oats, copra plus a few grass nuts for flavour for 2 fussy ones.  Meals are small so I can get them to eat the essentials asap, they can munch hay in their own time.


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## Tnavas (3 November 2014)

Palindrome said:



			No, it doesn't in horses, as per the equine nutrition course of the University of Edinburgh (free to enroll online on Coursera). There is no digestion in the stomach either, it starts in the small intestine in the horse.

As per the same course, bulking out the hard feed is not advised, just feeding small meals of hard feed, up to 2kg per meal if I remember well (am not saying they say don't feed chaff but they say that hard feed meal should be small as not to overload the stomach.
		
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I did the same - course - go back and read your notes as you have not remembered them very well!
Veterinary Notes for Horse Owners - p23 "Salivary enzymes help to break down starch to Maltose"
Equine Nutrition - Week 1
Page 6 &#8226; So &#8211; "principle diet should be *forage*"
Page 15 &#8226; Little digestion of feed &#8211; *some protein break down* (no absorption)
Page 23 The GIT &#8208; conclusion &#8226; Designed to process fibrous feeds &#8226;* Fibrous feeds required for &#8211; Healthy gut* &#8211; Satisfy behavioural needs

*Maintenance* &#8226; Feed intake &#8211; Generally 2 % of bodyweight &#8226; *Forage only* (with forage balancer)

*Breeding* &#8208; stallion: *&#8226; Feed good quality forage*

*Growing horses*: &#8226; Yearlings to two years: &#8211; Growth rate begins to slow &#8211; Correct feeding still essential &#8226; Feeding:
*&#8211; Feed ad lib forage* *&#8211; Good quality forage should meet energy and protein requirements* &#8211; Some youngsters may need supplementary feeding (stud feed)
&#8226; Two years onwards &#8211; Requirements affected by training (e.g. racehorse) *&#8211; If not in training then forage alone*

*Light work*: &#8211; Recreational riding &#8211; Beginning of training programme - Requirements: &#8211; Appetite = 2 % BW *&#8211; Good quality forage*

*Moderate work*: &#8211; Novice/intermediate level eventer &#8211; Dressage horse (medium level) &#8211; Grade A showjumper 
&#8226; Requirements: &#8211; Appetite = 2.25 % BW &#8211; Good quality forage &#8211; Supplementary feeds *&#8211; Forage should comprise minimum 60 to 70 % of the ration* &#8226; Supplementary feeds &#8211; Mix, *Sugar beet pulp*, HT alfalfa, Oil

*&#8226; Heavy work:* &#8211; 3 day eventer &#8211; Endurance horse (70 to 100 mile rides) &#8226; Requirements: &#8211; Appetite = 2.5 % BW *&#8211; Good quality forage* plus supplementary feeds *&#8211; Forage should comprise minimum 50 to 60 % of the ration* 

*Very heavy work:* &#8211; Racehorse &#8226; Requirements: &#8211; Appetite = 2.25 % BW &#8211; Good quality forage &#8211; Plus supplementary feeds
*&#8211; Forage should comprise minimum 50 of the ration*

Dietary management&#8208; conclusion
&#8226;* Feed high quality forage* &#8226; *Use high degradable fibrous feeds *&#8226; Feed cereals in moderation &#8226; Feed little and often &#8226; Monitor bodyweight


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## TGM (3 November 2014)

I don't think anyone on this thread is debating the need for a diet to be high in fibres- hopefully most reasonably educated horsey people should know that forage/fibre should be the main basis of the diet.  However the debate on this thread is surely about whether a specific form of fibre (ie chaff) is compulsory even when the horse is getting plentiful fibre elsewhere.


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## Palindrome (3 November 2014)

Tnavas said:



			I did the same - course - go back and read your notes as you have not remembered them very well!
		
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I didn't take notes but I am sure of it as it was also a question in the quizz (am not 100% sure about the stomach but am sure about saliva only being a lubricant). Anyone else has done the course and can tell us yes or no?

Looking online I stand my ground.

http://www.thehorse.com/articles/33228/digestion-in-the-horse
"However, the horse has a comparatively reduced capacity for digestion. Salivary digestion of carbohydrates occurs in humans and other species, but such digestion is minimal in horses."

http://phantomriders.weebly.com/uploads/1/3/0/1/13012774/horse_digestive_system.pdf
"Water makes up 99% of the horse's saliva with the other 1% composed of inorganic salts (ions), and proteins. There are no enzymes in the saliva of the horse."

Not sure if your notes are up to scratch Tnavas, unless the course has been changed since I took it. But several of your claims don't make sense to me in comparison with what I learnt on that course.

ETA: the 2nd link has the stomach digesting proteins (and some fat but most of the fat digested in large intestine). A very interesting summary.


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## criso (3 November 2014)

But there is a difference between saying what proportion of forage should make up the diet with different workloads and the need for fibrous feed and saying that some sort of chopped fibre should be added to the bucket feed.

Mine probably get at least 90% of their calorie intake from forage ( I have to estimate intake for the 8 - 12 hours grazing daily so can't be exact and they have ad lib hay) but they don't get any chaff.


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## Tnavas (3 November 2014)

Palindrome said:



			I didn't take note but I am sure of it as it was also a question in the quizz (am not 100% sure about the stomach but am sure about saliva only being a lubricant). Anyone else has done the course and can tell us yes or no?

Looking online I stand my ground.

http://www.thehorse.com/articles/33228/digestion-in-the-horse
"However, the horse has a comparatively reduced capacity for digestion. Salivary digestion of carbohydrates occurs in humans and other species, but such digestion is minimal in horses."

http://phantomriders.weebly.com/uploads/1/3/0/1/13012774/horse_digestive_system.pdf
"Water makes up 99% of the horse's saliva with the other 1% composed of inorganic salts (ions), and proteins. There are no enzymes in the saliva of the horse." Their information is incorrect - read Veterinary Notes for Horse Owners - written by Equine Vet specialists Veterinary Notes for Horse Owners - p23 "Salivary enzymes help to break down starch to Maltose"


Not sure if your notes are up to scratch Tnavas, unless the course has been changed since I took it. But several of your claims don't make sense to me in comparison with what I learnt on that course.
		
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All the above was copied and pasted from the notes!


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## Palindrome (3 November 2014)

Tnavas said:



			All the above was copied and pasted from the notes!
		
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I am curious now, they might have changed the course then. Anyone to confirm/contradict?


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## Goldenstar (3 November 2014)

I use plain chopped oat straw .
I like to use this verses more tasty chaffs as it makes the horses used to eating it useful when injury strikes .


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## khalswitz (3 November 2014)

Palindrome said:



			No, it doesn't in horses, as per the equine nutrition course of the University of Edinburgh (free to enroll online on Coursera). There is no digestion in the stomach either, it starts in the small intestine in the horse.

As per the same course, bulking out the hard feed is not advised, just feeding small meals of hard feed, up to 2kg per meal if I remember well (am not saying they say don't feed chaff but they say that hard feed meal should be small as not to overload the stomach.
		
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Yeah, I'm midway through a Master's in Equine science at the Dick, know Joanne and the guys who ran it very well 

Yes, horses do have amylase in the saliva. The activity is markedly less than seen on humans, monkeys, rodents, but is around 4x more so than cattle and sheep, so there is still carbohydrate hydrolysis occurring. There was a decent literature review done by I believe Cohn on amylase in various species that would be worth a look if I can find a link...

Horse Saliva also contains bicarbonate, which acts as a stomach acid buffer and is pretty important too. However equine saliva contains less bicarb and sodium proportionately than calcium and chloride, so horses that have reduced saliva production, or can't swallow due to choke for example, can end up hypochloremic and alkalotic.

Importantly, horses do not salivate in anticipation of eating like dogs for example - mastication is required for saliva production.

ETA - woah, where on earth did it say no digestion happens in the stomach!!!

That's tosh. ALL of your simple sugars and carbs are digested in the stomach (although absorption happens in the small intestine mainly in the horse). Your cellulose is all digested and absorbed in the hindgut, but digestion of simple sugars, starch and simple proteins happens in the stomach. Stomach acid contains lipases, amylases, and pepsins to break down fats, starches and proteins respectively.

Digestion of starch not occurring in the stomach and then rushing through the small intestine is what causes hindgut acidosis.


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## Palindrome (3 November 2014)

khalswitz said:



			Yeah, I'm midway through a Master's in Equine science at the Dick, know Joanne and the guys who ran it very well 

Yes, horses do have amylase in the saliva. The activity is markedly less than seen on humans, monkeys, rodents, but is around 4x more so than cattle and sheep, so there is still carbohydrate hydrolysis occurring. There was a decent literature review done by I believe Cohn on amylase in various species that would be worth a look if I can find a link...

Horse Saliva also contains bicarbonate, which acts as a stomach acid buffer and is pretty important too. However equine saliva contains less bicarb and sodium proportionately than calcium and chloride, so horses that have reduced saliva production, or can't swallow due to choke for example, can end up hypochloremic and alkalotic.

Importantly, horses do not salivate in anticipation of eating like dogs for example - mastication is required for saliva production.

ETA - woah, where on earth did it say no digestion happens in the stomach!!!

That's tosh. ALL of your simple sugars and carbs are digested in the stomach (although absorption happens in the small intestine mainly in the horse). Your cellulose is all digested and absorbed in the hindgut, but digestion of simple sugars, starch and simple proteins happens in the stomach. Stomach acid contains lipases, amylases, and pepsins to break down fats, starches and proteins respectively.

Digestion of starch not occurring in the stomach and then rushing through the small intestine is what causes hindgut acidosis.
		
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Interesting, was not sure about the stomach part and looks like it's wrong. The 4 times more than cattle and sheep do not necessarily mean that's significant when we consider the amount of starch in a bucket feed (although it might be for lower starch feed like hay)? If I remember well starch was said to be digested in small intestine where there is enzymatic digestion, hind gut acidosis being when it reaches the large intestine, no? Fat was said to be mainly digested in large intestine.
Could you point us toward a good recap of how the horse's digestive tract works?


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## MillionDollar (3 November 2014)

I've just stopped feeding it, there's no point when all of mine are on ad lib hay. Instead they're having oats and sugarbeet (which is what my 2 colts were on at Woodlander Stud and look fab!!!) with Topspec All-In-One. Much cheaper too!


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## Tnavas (3 November 2014)

Palindrome said:



			I am curious now, they might have changed the course then. Anyone to confirm/contradict?
		
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I took the course in January 2013


kahlswitz - this is taken from the notes for the Equine Nutrition Course

Stomach - Page 15 
&#8226; Size &#8211; relatively small and inelastic
&#8211; Capacity of ~ 8 litres (~ size of a rugby ball)
&#8211; Important not to over fill (no more than 2 kg per meal)
&#8211; Reason why we feed little and often
&#8226; Divided into 2 sections (non&#8208;glandular and glandular)
&#8211; Non&#8208;glandular section is where food enters (no mucous layer)
&#8211; Glandular is where hydrochloric acid is produced (protected by mucous layer)
&#8226; Acidic &#8211; pH ~ 1.5 to 2 in the glandular region
&#8226; Little digestion of feed &#8211; some protein break down (no absorption)
&#8226; Rate of passage &#8211; rapid (~ 20 minutes)


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## PolarSkye (4 November 2014)

TGM said:



			I don't think anyone on this thread is debating the need for a diet to be high in fibres- hopefully most reasonably educated horsey people should know that forage/fibre should be the main basis of the diet.  However the debate on this thread is surely about whether a specific form of fibre (ie chaff) is compulsory even when the horse is getting plentiful fibre elsewhere.
		
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This.  And I remain unconvinced.

P


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## khalswitz (4 November 2014)

Tnavas said:



			I took the course in January 2013


kahlswitz - this is taken from the notes for the Equine Nutrition Course

Stomach - Page 15 
&#8226; Size &#8211; relatively small and inelastic
&#8211; Capacity of ~ 8 litres (~ size of a rugby ball)
&#8211; Important not to over fill (no more than 2 kg per meal)
&#8211; Reason why we feed little and often
&#8226; Divided into 2 sections (non&#8208;glandular and glandular)
&#8211; Non&#8208;glandular section is where food enters (no mucous layer)
&#8211; Glandular is where hydrochloric acid is produced (protected by mucous layer)
&#8226; Acidic &#8211; pH ~ 1.5 to 2 in the glandular region
&#8226; Little digestion of feed &#8211; some protein break down (no absorption)
&#8226; Rate of passage &#8211; rapid (~ 20 minutes)
		
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Hang on - reading both your posts I Think we have to be clear that digestion and absorption are two different things. Digestion or breakdown is the stomach's main job in all species with stomachs, however amount of absorption in the stomach varies (the horse doesn't do much). In the horse, stomach breaks down food on a macro scale, ie breaking down your Bolus and then beginning breakdown of macromolecules like lipids, starches and proteins, proximal intestine on a micro scale ie continued breakdown of macromolecules to easily absorbed small molecules like monosaccharides, amino acids and VFAs. These are then absorbed in then small intestine. So if we're clear on terminology then digestion happens in the stomach, further digestion and absorption in the small intestine (not including cellulose).

Yup - you feed little and often to allow food to be broken down in the stomach, otherwise the consistency of the chyme when it enters the small intestine is too solid and then doesn't fully get broken down by the additional enzymes introduced in the proximal small intestine and properly absorbed. The lack of digestion in the stomach means food can't be absorbed properly on the small intestine, and it also pushes good through the foregut faster, which means a more acidic chyme arrives  in The hindgut which can lead to acidosis.

Regarding saliva, you'll find significance depends on mastication time. There is a smaller amount of amylase present than in humans, so action won't be as significant, but in feeds requiring greater mastication the action will be greater as time in the mouth is longer and salvia production greater too. So consistency of your bucket feed will have an impact - a, funnily enough, more chaff feed will see more amylase action than a soaked feed like sugar beet. 

Personally, I'd be more worried about overly damp and soft feeds than I would be about feeding specifically chaff. Overly soft and damp feeds won't encourage salvia production, for either the digestive, lubricant or buffer roles. I always feed my sugar beet with as little water as necessary, so it is quite dry but fully soaked, and I don't add water to feeds like nuts, as it encourages them to chew them better. That's when feeding chaff to stop them rushing and choking can be useful.

I have to admit that there are other sources of fibre, and chaff therefore isn't necessary as long as dietary fibre intake is high enough and bucket feed does not need chaff for other reasons.


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## Zerotolerance (4 November 2014)

Oh dear - Afraid I've been feeding mine loads of chaff for years and will continue to do so as per if it ain't broke don't fix it. However, it is all molasses free and they don't all have the same - varies according to their needs. What I would never do is give them loads of the cheap Molichaff that is coated in molasses, bleugh!! I have a 6yo who we thought may possibly have ulcers so had him scoped and you could see scars from where there had been ulcers in the past, but none at present - vet said whatever you're feeding him is working so don't change it. (Good enough for me) He has only molasses free Alfa A plus soaked grass nuts and no hard feed added. No reason to change this and risk ulcers. Another 27 year old has been through 2 colic surgeries in the last 8 years (Pendunculated lipomas both times, so nothing to do with what he gets fed, before anyone says otherwise!) These days he's a little picky with his hay/haylage so he gets plenty of chaff and also a bucket of grass. (The Top Spec one with soya oil as it's the only one he likes) Have another oldie (24) with Cushings so he gets lots of unmolassed chaff and very little concentrate. The 4 competition boys and girl also get plenty of (molasses free) chaff and soaked grass nuts with their small quantity of concentrates. 
Oh and the 27yo does drool like a dog while waiting for his feed - plenty of people can vouch for this as they've been on the end of one of his mahussive camel spits!


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## Goldenstar (4 November 2014)

On the salivating before food is given one of mine had been pretty hungry before he came ( he lived out with minimum intervention for two years ) he would literally run with drool when he saw you coming with food .


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## khalswitz (4 November 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			On the salivating before food is given one of mine had been pretty hungry before he came ( he lived out with minimum intervention for two years ) he would literally run with drool when he saw you coming with food .
		
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Well, all my texts say that they only produce saliva on mastication. I can't say more than that!


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## Goldenstar (4 November 2014)

khalswitz said:



			Well, all my texts say that they only produce saliva on mastication. I can't say more than that!
		
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I was just posting my observation that's all .


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## khalswitz (4 November 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			I was just posting my observation that's all .
		
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Sorry, I think I worded that weirdly. It's interesting to hear two anecdotes implying anticipatory salivation, and I'd love to know more but can't find any recent studies on it with a brief look...


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## milliepops (4 November 2014)

Tnavas said:



			BAlancers come in various types, are you referring to the type that is highly concentrated compound of vitamins, minerals & proteins which are fed in a very small quantity? Or the type that is a full feed of Carbs, proteins, vitamins & minerals. 

Neither contain any significant fibre content.
		
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I also feed only balancers. The amount of hard feed given is about half the volume of half an apple. I dampen the pellets to carry any other supplements they are on. I think my horses hoover enough grass and hay around their bucket feeds to negate the need for chaff   Pretty sure this tiddly amount of soggy concentrate will navigate through their guts OK.

I don't know about anyone else, but my impression of 'modern' feeds was that we all knew they should be low starch, high fibre etc. My feeling was that as more is known re ulcers, EMS etc that more horse friendly feeds have become widely available.  I don't know anyone who gives big starchy molassed bucket feeds any more.


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## Tnavas (4 November 2014)

milliepops said:



			I don't know anyone who gives big starchy molassed bucket feeds any more.
		
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Well there must be many as they are still made and sold!


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## milliepops (4 November 2014)

Perhaps, but I wonder who that is. Just going on this thread, it doesn't seem to be many HHOers


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## khalswitz (4 November 2014)

milliepops said:



			Perhaps, but I wonder who that is. Just going on this thread, it doesn't seem to be many HHOers 

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BUT, dare I say it, people on HHO tend to be have their eyes opened (forcibly in some cases!). We talk about feed A LOT. I know for a fact my old YO still feeds Pasture Mix as a main feed (seen the sugar content?!), and another friend still fees molasses sugar beet 'because it is cheaper'. So the whole world does not know better...


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## milliepops (4 November 2014)

True   Though I wouldn't call pasture mix or molassed sugar beet a modern feed as mentioned above  

In my mind there are 3 ages of horse feeds - 
'old fashioned' (with tongue in cheek) straights - OK if you know what you are doing/get through enough to avoid waste
outdated starchy mixes, probably came into fashion around the time I started keeping horses and really sold to benefit owners - coarse mix has a lot to answer for as it looks so darn yummy 
Modern - thinking of all the high oil/high fibre/low starch/balancer type options available now that are a bit more science based and probably targetted towards the thinking horse owner 

Perhaps it's just me!


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## be positive (4 November 2014)

milliepops said:



			True   Though I wouldn't call pasture mix or molassed sugar beet a modern feed as mentioned above  

In my mind there are 3 ages of horse feeds - 
'old fashioned' (with tongue in cheek) straights - OK if you know what you are doing/get through enough to avoid waste
outdated starchy mixes, probably came into fashion around the time I started keeping horses and really sold to benefit owners - coarse mix has a lot to answer for as it looks so darn yummy 
Modern - thinking of all the high oil/high fibre/low starch/balancer type options available now that are a bit more science based and probably targetted towards the thinking horse owner 

Perhaps it's just me!
		
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I got pulled up earlier on the thread by using the term modern feeding methods, meaning low starch and sugar not feeding mixes I also thought feeding had moved on and that it was now more common to feed fibre and oil, so not just you, I think my horses get adequate fibre in their diets and have no use for chaff or chop on a daily basis.

I was wondering whether feeding chop/ chaff soaked in loads of water is actually detrimental and contributing to the increase in ulcers, the owners thinking they are doing their best by giving a fibre rich feed but negating the benefit of saliva production by giving it soaking wet, that combined with damp hay of haylage must be reducing how much saliva they require to chew and swallow each mouthful.  I always used to feed it dry or only very slightly dampened by the sugar beet or fast fibre that was added, there should be no need to wet it as there should be no dust to worry about.


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## Tnavas (4 November 2014)

Molassed Sugarbeet has been around for at least 50 years, its only in the past 10-15yrs that its been available without the added Molasses.

Feed should just be damped enough to settle any dust.

TBH you modern feeders seem to have a very large amount of problems that we never faced when we fed straights. Our ponies lived out 24/7 on grass, laminitis was only seen in spring - and only if you didn't have enough sense to restrict your fat pony's feed at that time of the year.

I still feed straights and still have no problems with any of my horses and ponies. My school ponies/horses lived out 24/7, on dairy pasture, with rye grass and clover - irrigated throughout the summer so grass was always at optimum health, and fertilised usually twice a year. The had Himalayan rock salt in the paddocks and a Magnesium block in spring and autumn.

They were only fed if they worked, even in winter their stable diet was hay. Feed was Oat or Lucerne chaff, oats for the fat ponies and barley for those that needed more to maintain condition. The average age of the horses was around 19yrs. They were never lame, or sick save a  couple of cases of grass staggers after the owner of the property went a bit wild with the irrigator and fertiliser. 

The vet only came in once in the ten years I ran the school to assess a pony that would now have been described as having Cushings, he was in his late 20's.


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## NZJenny (5 November 2014)

Happily old fashioned.


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## Spring Feather (5 November 2014)

Tnavas said:



			TBH you modern feeders seem to have a very large amount of problems that we never faced when we fed straights.
		
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No problems here.  Vet comes to AI mares, tend to the odd injury and vaccinate the horses annually.  I've fed straights and I've fed balancers and there's been no noticeable difference to the internal health of the horses.


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## ester (5 November 2014)

Tnavas said:



			So what is IN your bucket? Many modern feeds once wet become a sludgy pulp which doesn't travel well through the digestive system.

An experiment I give my students to do is to put various different feeds into beakers of water and leave for 20mins, the average time food is in the stomach. 

When horse and pony cubes first hit the market the cases of colic increased as people fed them on their own, they turned to sludge and got themselves jammed up in the caecum. Feeding chaff or bran (at the time) or Sugarbeet prevented this from happening.
		
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Tnavas said:



			Of course it will travel well through the digestive system, it's fibre, not sure what you are meaning.

My comment about it being just glorified straw. Why would you pay so much for this sort of mix when you can supply chaff and beet pulp at a fraction of the price?
		
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well I thought fastfibre was the epitomy of a sludgey pulp that therefore wouldn't travel through the system (soaked pony nuts end up much the same having used them too) but sugar beet isn't wholly difference in consistency yet you think that is great as a fibre source. 
Reasons for using fastfibre = dentition problems and palatability, it has other additives which make it more palatable than straw and sugar beet, mine certainly prefers it to beet and unmolassed beet doesn't work out massively cheaper without finding some straw to chop up/buying bagged.


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## ester (5 November 2014)

Tnavas said:



			So what is IN your bucket? Many modern feeds once wet become a sludgy pulp which doesn't travel well through the digestive system.

An experiment I give my students to do is to put various different feeds into beakers of water and leave for 20mins, the average time food is in the stomach. 

When horse and pony cubes first hit the market the cases of colic increased as people fed them on their own, they turned to sludge and got themselves jammed up in the caecum. Feeding chaff or bran (at the time) or Sugarbeet prevented this from happening.
		
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criso said:



			I grew up in a non chaff environment. People had stopped cutting their own and chaff cutters were something referred to in old pony books however bagged chaff were not available.  Apart from Spillers pony nuts it was all straights own brand from the local feed merchants.  

It was when I returned to riding in the 90's after a long break that I came across molassed chaff and alfalfa for the first time.
		
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I think the revival probably occurred when people became keen on fibre only diets and not mixes- without thinking about the molasses on it . Ours started on hi fi/sugar beet/pony nuts but have moved on since then.


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## Tnavas (5 November 2014)

ester said:



			well I thought fastfibre was the epitomy of a sludgey pulp that therefore wouldn't travel through the system (soaked pony nuts end up much the same having used them too) but sugar beet isn't wholly difference in consistency yet you think that is great as a fibre source. 
Reasons for using fastfibre = dentition problems and palatability, it has other additives which make it more palatable than straw and sugar beet, mine certainly prefers it to beet and unmolassed beet doesn't work out massively cheaper without finding some straw to chop up/buying bagged.
		
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We don't have Fast Fibre here in NZ so cannot comment on how it looks when soaked. I looked at the contents which indicate high fibre. I've never seen Sugarbeet that looks just like sludge, mine comes from the UK and when soaked you can see the shreds of beet quite clearly. 

I soak my sugar beet in just enough water that it is crumbly wet not dripping, it's an invaluable fibre source, palatable, will carry meds or supplements well and spreads out the concentrate part of the ration. I feed my feeds just damp, not sloppy as the horse still needs to chew well and add saliva to the mix.

The revival - fortunate for the horse is the result of manufacturers finally realising that they are hurting our horses with their 'junk food'. 

I remember when the first premises came on the market, the various contents were highly visible then, it looked pretty and smelt yummy and the feed companies used that to sell it, along with the biggest sales gimmick of only needing one feed bin, labour saving and less storage space. It sent many horses loopy as it contained grains that were totally unsuitable for a horse. 

When people decide to take on a horse they need to go and learn about feeding, not just pop to the local feed store and buy the bag with the flashy dressage horse on it because they want to be a dressage rider.

The old 'Rules of Feeding' fly out the window. The most important one being 

Feed according to Temperament, Condition, Work Load and I always add a bit extra to this - the ability and confidence of the rider

People go and learn to ride, learning to care for the horse is equally as important, and in this day and age it's so easy to attend evening courses on horse care. I struggle at every Pony Club rally to enthuse riders to enjoy learning about looking after their horse.


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## Firewell (5 November 2014)

They don't have chaff where I am in the states it doesn't exist. They feed pelleted feed, mixes or straights. Grass pellets, sugar beet (the full fat stuff, no kwick beet here), oats and rice bran are popular straights and we have balancers too.
My horse gets a fully balanced low starch pellet feed with an ulcer supplement and a joint supplement. The supplements are also pelleted, not powder as they don't have chaff. 
Being English I wet my feed so it goes a bit mushy. They think that very strange! Wet feed is for old horses that dont have teeth or sugar beet .
None of the horses suffer for not having chaff, they all get lots of hay.


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## criso (5 November 2014)

ester said:



			I think the revival probably occurred when people became keen on fibre only diets and not mixes- without thinking about the molasses on it . Ours started on hi fi/sugar beet/pony nuts but have moved on since then.
		
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Forage being the main part of diet were drummed into us at pony club it just didn't take the form of bagged chopped chaff.  We fed very little bucket feed full stop, usually just a few oats when worked hard and as I said before sugarbeet in the winter if weight was needed.

The only branded feed was Spiller's pony nuts everything else was produced locally and bagged at the local feed merchants.  They did do a mix they made up on site called hunters mix, god knows what was in it.  I remember little milk pellets as we used to pick these out and eat them.


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## Goldenstar (5 November 2014)

Oh milk pellets I had forgotten about them .


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## Tnavas (5 November 2014)

Firewell said:



			None of the horses suffer for not having chaff, they all get lots of hay.
		
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They won't as the Sugarbeet replaces the Chaff - they do the same job of opening the mix of concentrates and allowing it to nmove through the digestive system at a slower rate



criso said:



			Forage being the main part of diet were drummed into us at pony club it just didn't take the form of bagged chopped chaff.  We fed very little bucket feed full stop, usually just a few oats when worked hard and as I said before sugarbeet in the winter if weight was needed.

The only branded feed was Spiller's pony nuts everything else was produced locally and bagged at the local feed merchants.  They did do a mix they made up on site called hunters mix, god knows what was in it.  I remember little milk pellets as we used to pick these out and eat them.
		
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Yep - remember those days very well. If you had chaff it was because you had slogged away turning the wheel or risked your fingers pushing the hay in the chute towards the cutters.

I never fed my ponies at all, they were on a massive hillside paddock and ate grass, with 'Hay on the Stalk' to eat in winter. Yet I rode for hours on my pony sometimes as many as 40miles in a day, she did this all on grass, was fit, sleek & shiny - no supplements and lived sound as a bell into her 20's.


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## criso (6 November 2014)

Tnavas said:



			Yep - remember those days very well. If you had chaff it was because you had slogged away turning the wheel or risked your fingers pushing the hay in the chute towards the cutters.
		
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As I said before those had died out by then only to be referred to in old books.


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## Firewell (6 November 2014)

A lot of the horses don't get sugar beet though. Mine doesn't. The breeding stallion is on just sugarbeet and grass hay. The jumping stallion is on a senior pellet with a lb of oats fed dry in a bucket.
I thought it a bit strange when I got here as I was used to adding a double handful of Hifi with my horses feed and wetting it. A bowl of dry pellets looked odd to me but I'm used to it now .


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## PolarSkye (6 November 2014)

khalswitz said:



			Sorry, I think I worded that weirdly. It's interesting to hear two anecdotes implying anticipatory salivation, and I'd love to know more but can't find any recent studies on it with a brief look...
		
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Fellow livery's mare also salivates in anticipation of being fed her bucket feed . . . she has plenty of hay . . . but she is a real piglet when it comes to food.  I had never seen it before.

P


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## PolarSkye (6 November 2014)

milliepops said:



			I don't know anyone who gives big starchy molassed bucket feeds any more.
		
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I do.  I am the only person at current yard who feeds a low starch, low molasses diet . . . I suspect the others think I'm a tad strange.  They had never seen or heard of linseed or Copra before and think I'm nuts (pun intended) for being so anti mixes (which they feed).  In the winter, the big mare's bucket feed is ridiculously full/heavy - weighed down with nuts, molassed chaff and Speedibeet.  She is obese.

P


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## ester (6 November 2014)

Firewell I thought they didn't get much hay either as it was so rich?


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