# Hip Scores done under Sedation?



## misterjinglejay (21 May 2013)

I need my mals hips scored, and have always used my usual vets with my samoyeds and had them done under a GA. However mals are not good with GA's and I don't want to take any risks - obviously. I've heard of a very good vets Southampton way who does scoring under sedation, but can't remember the name.

Does anyone know? Or can recommend someone (we are in Kent, but would travel for the right vet).

Cheers


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## MurphysMinder (21 May 2013)

Mine does them without sedation but they are in Cheshire, so a bit far.  I know quite a few GSD people who live in the south and use a good vet will try and find out a name for you.


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## gunnergundog (21 May 2013)

The lady you've heard about is Marilyn Baker;  she's now nearer to Portsmouth than Southampton and IMO she is simply the best!  Her number is freely available on the internet so I will post it here: 01329 230052.


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## Nikki J (21 May 2013)

misterjay said:



			I need my mals hips scored, and have always used my usual vets with my samoyeds and had them done under a GA. However mals are not good with GA's and I don't want to take any risks - obviously. I've heard of a very good vets Southampton way who does scoring under sedation, but can't remember the name.

Does anyone know? Or can recommend someone (we are in Kent, but would travel for the right vet).

Cheers
		
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This sounds great - we had our old Mal/wolf cross hip scored and due to his breeding GA was not at all a good idea.  Our vet said that a full GA had to be given to ensure that the dog kept absolutely motionless, so I wonder how this lady near Portsmouth manages to keep them so still just with sedation.  Sounds a great idea, as long as it works.


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## misterjinglejay (21 May 2013)

Thank you so much GGD - that is who I was looking for!


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## misterjinglejay (21 May 2013)

Just phoned her and she sounds really nice. Not as expensive as I thought it would be either. Thank you, again!


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## djlynwood (21 May 2013)

What do the vets do to determine a hip score?

Just curious.


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## CorvusCorax (21 May 2013)

The individual vet doesn't do it, it is sent away and the BVA scores it, but the vet can give a prediction.

The dog has to be laid out in a certain way and certain parts of the ball joint and hip sockets are evaluated and each given a score under the UK scheme, the best being 0:0 on each hip, as laid out on the score sheet.
Worst scores are a total of low 100s. Uneven scores are also undesirable/should not be bred from.

Different schemes do it different ways, my boys hips and elbows were sent away to Germany (came back best possible results).
Because while German scores are recognised here, the Germans don't recognise the BVA score so I thought it was best to have it done so it would be recognised internationally if I ever want to do anything with him abroad.
The USA uses a different scheme and there is also the PenHipp scheme also.

The BVA scheme has been available since the mid 1970s as far as I know, maybe earlier (my mum signed up to it in the mid 70s) and all of our animals have scored well, touch wood and thank goodness!!


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## CorvusCorax (21 May 2013)

This is an idea of the positioning








And here's some more info
http://www.bva.co.uk/hip_scheme.aspx
http://www.bva.co.uk/public/documents/Interpretation-and-_use-of-BVA-KC_Hip-Scores.pdf


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## djlynwood (21 May 2013)

Thank you.  Cavecanem, thats very informative. 

My dogs parents were hip scored and the score was a good one apparently but I had no idea how the score is determined.


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## CorvusCorax (21 May 2013)

If you ask MurphysMinder nicely I think she has a copy of a hip score sheet. I have one somewhere from a 0:0 scored bitch we had (complete with a 'very nice' annotation from cheeky vet ) but would need to put it onto Photobucket.
With the German one I just had the pedigree returned to me with a stamp on it.


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## MurphysMinder (21 May 2013)

I'm at work at mo but will post pic of score sheets later. Marilyn was the person I was thinking of for x raying.


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## MurphysMinder (21 May 2013)

Here are the score sheets.  Top one total score of 12 is the dog with the better hips,  the lower one with the score of 38 has too high a score for breeding from, but her hips never bothered her.


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## MurphysMinder (21 May 2013)

A couple more people have also recommended Marilyn to me so she sounds like the best in your area.  I had to smile as one "expert" informed me  
" I would advise that you may struggle to find someone as it is difficult to get tge relaxation required under a sedation for KC hips as they have to be on their backs, legs out straight and slight  and knees lined up which requires tying. Good luck finding someone who does though x"

Strange, in probably 40 years of having dogs x rayed we have never had their legs tied.


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## Laura2408 (21 May 2013)

MM, just to give another perspective as a qualified vet nurse in a massive practice who does lots of hip and elbow scoring we always tie the legs in position as it gives a much better X-ray as the patella are rotated in the correct position to give the best view of the pelvis, in university or college and also for vet/vn practical exams you are taught the correct way is to use ties (or wedges) to get the best view of the hips and joint and are examined on the use of them (to not use would be a fail).  Most dogs are just too floppy and to lie them on a plate gives a very rubbish 'frog legged' image which the BVA wouldn't be able to score from. I would have thought in most practices using leg ties is the norm.

I am very impressed someone can get a good image under sedation and suggest she is worth using if that's the case as she must be very good


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## MurphysMinder (21 May 2013)

Fair enough Laura. However the vets I use (not the lady mentioned in this thread) has 2 days a week when he does nothing but hip and elbow x rays, I know of people who travel for 3 hours to get to him. As I have already said he never ties legs, the dog is placed in a cradle, the legs are held straight and the x ray is taken.  He predicts the score and is usually within 2 of the BVA score, this together with the fact he only sedates is why he is so popular.


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## Laura2408 (21 May 2013)

He sounds very good!! I would definatley use him if that was the case,  we could do with a specialist in our area...I personally hate doing BVA as they are such a pain to get right!


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## MurphysMinder (21 May 2013)

We are very lucky to have him on our doorstep.   I actually know of GSD breeders who come down from not far from your area to use him, bet they would like a specialist in the area too.


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## CorvusCorax (21 May 2013)

I've never heard of tying legs either  the plates I posted above were of my own dog and he was not tied. Same, vet has been doing it for years.


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## Laura2408 (21 May 2013)

It's really common in veterinary practice,  in fact ties are used for a huge amount of procedures along with sandbags and wedges (theatre and xraying) and cause no harm to the animal, they are just a good positioning aid. The RCVS actually recomend the use of ties and sandbags when doing X-rays  
I remember trying to master the art of BVA scoring with a leg tie - easier said than done!! Maybe doing under sedation should catch on


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## satinbaze (21 May 2013)

I remember reading an article by the late Malcolm Willis who stated that a hip score with a total ( both hips added together) of 15 or under should be suitable for breeding.


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## howsthat (22 May 2013)

Marilyn is great,very good with the dogs and top quality plates,


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## Nikki J (22 May 2013)

satinbaze said:



			I remember reading an article by the late Malcolm Willis who stated that a hip score with a total ( both hips added together) of 15 or under should be suitable for breeding.
		
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Even scores I understand are very important - so you could have, say, a score of 3 and 9, but it would be a poor score because it is uneven.


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## s4sugar (22 May 2013)

Nikki J said:



			Even scores I understand are very important - so you could have, say, a score of 3 and 9, but it would be a poor score because it is uneven.
		
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http://www.bva.co.uk/public/documents/Interpretation-and-_use-of-BVA-KC_Hip-Scores.pdf


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## Bedlam (22 May 2013)

MurphysMinder said:



			Fair enough Laura. However the vets I use (not the lady mentioned in this thread) has 2 days a week when he does nothing but hip and elbow x rays, I know of people who travel for 3 hours to get to him. As I have already said he never ties legs, the dog is placed in a cradle, the legs are held straight and the x ray is taken.  He predicts the score and is usually within 2 of the BVA score, this together with the fact he only sedates is why he is so popular.
		
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The legs are held? By whom? Not sure that an RPA would be thrilled to hear this.......

In extremis it is OK to hold an animal for radiography if there is not alternative and full lead gown, thyroid protectot and gloves or mitts are worn, but it isn't advisable and I would suggest that hip scoring is not something done in extremis. I agree with what Laura had said.

There is a common held belief that you could travel to a certain person (I actually never knew the name) in Southampton and have radiographs taken that would get better scores. Not sure how that could happen in all honesty as nothing happend to the dogs to make their hips better when you travel to Southampton. 

I do know that there are some vets with excellent DR X-ray facilities that have had extensive training and are very, very good at the positioning required for BVA hip scores. They are not in that neck of the woods though - more Midlands region - and you would have to pay for their tiem and expertise.


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## MurphysMinder (22 May 2013)

That is just my experience, and it is the vet who holds the legs and he is fully lead gowned yes.   It is possible this is the practice you are talking about, not a million miles from Midlands, and I know people who travel to him from the Midlands so possibly if there was someone nearer to them they would use them.  We do obviously pay for their time and expertise, wonderful as it would be to have the service for free I don't think its likely to happen.
I have no experience of the person in Southampton, just have heard good reports of her. Maybe that what actually happens is she has the expertise to position dogs correctly for x rays, therefore the score is better than if the dog was slightly off centre etc.  There have been people on here who have had poor quality x rays which might have affected scores if they had been submitted.


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## Bedlam (22 May 2013)

MurphysMinder said:



			That is just my experience, and it is the vet who holds the legs and he is fully lead gowned yes.   It is possible this is the practice you are talking about, not a million miles from Midlands, and I know people who travel to him from the Midlands so possibly if there was someone nearer to them they would use them.  We do obviously pay for their time and expertise, wonderful as it would be to have the service for free I don't think its likely to happen.
I have no experience of the person in Southampton, just have heard good reports of her. Maybe that what actually happens is she has the expertise to position dogs correctly for x rays, therefore the score is better than if the dog was slightly off centre etc.  There have been people on here who have had poor quality x rays which might have affected scores if they had been submitted.
		
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Sounds reasonable


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## Murphy88 (22 May 2013)

MM - I would say it is the practice Bedlam is thinking about, he was trialling the DR system for the BVA when I was a student there!


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