# Please tell me why the obsession with barefoot?



## Jasper99 (11 January 2013)

Hi everyone, I'm new *waves* 

Now before you start, I'm *not* a troll, I have been lurking for a long time and I wanted to join purely to ask the question : 

Why is there such an obsession with going barefoot? 

Please don't kill me


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## Mongoose11 (11 January 2013)

Why not? If shoes are an unnecessary intervention for my horse then why would I use them? 

My horse doesn't need oats so I don't feed them.
Doesn't need a Pelham so she doesn't wear one.
Doesn't need a grackle.
Doesn't need shoes.........

All of these things have their place but not for my horse.

So why would I shoe?


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## Sparkles (11 January 2013)

It's cheap.....


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## goatbabies (11 January 2013)

I wouldn't say it's an 'obsession'.

My two are barefoot because they don't wear shoes in the wild - I believe in keeping their lifestyle as close to natural as I can - and having shoes nailed on to them restricts the hooves' natural growth pattern, which will cause problem after problem.

Not to mention the constant losing of shoes in the mud, the risk of shoes twisting and puncturing their sole, the forking out of over £70 a month to get their feet done (as opposed to £25 every two months for a trim)....

How long did horses survive before us humans came along and started modifying them to suit our lives?


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## russianhorse (11 January 2013)

Dunno - Dizzys been barefoot for nearly 14 years (after getting EMND)

Handy though as it is cheaper lol


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## Elsiecat (11 January 2013)

None of my horses currently need shoes. 
Why would I pay for something they're perfectly happy without?


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## Mrs B (11 January 2013)

Some horses can take being barefoot. Some can't. It has always been thus, but at the moment, it's a 'hot topic'.


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## Echo Bravo (11 January 2013)

Because it's the current fad. My horses aren't shod because they aren't ridden at the moment. When they are ridden if they need shoeing they get shod,depend mainly on their hooves as I had 1 cob who's feet were so hard they had trouble trimming them.


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## DizzyDoughnut (11 January 2013)

Because they don't need them, all mine came without shoes and have excellent feet and its so much cheaper £14 a pony.... obviously if they had some sudden real need for shoes they would get them but why waste money?


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## LD&S (11 January 2013)

It's not an 'obsession', barefoot is generally better for the horse and pocket, also less chance of nasty injuries if anyone is unlucky enough to be kicked.
I think shoes should be seen as a 'last resort' rather than the other way around.


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## PandorasJar (11 January 2013)

Why is there an obsession with shoeing?
I've shared one mare with shoes, other than that all have been barefoot. Simply put mine have never needed them. OHs father is a farrier and with about 50 horses, two are shod. The rest don't need it so why whack an expensive piece of metal on with a horse it isn't needed?


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## flirtygerty (11 January 2013)

LD&S said:



			It's not an 'obsession', barefoot is generally better for the horse and pocket, also less chance of nasty injuries if anyone is unlucky enough to be kicked.
I think shoes should be seen as a 'last resort' rather than the other way around.
		
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This


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## RainbowDash (11 January 2013)

Hi,

I don't think of it as an obsession - some horses/ponies just don't need them.

If they need them for health, terrain, etc then they need them - a wild horse doesn't use a farrier - a kept and worked horse/pony will for many reasons or not need them.

In my case - my lad came to me bare foot from a yard with roadwork/level hacking - my yard has different hacking (ex-mine area - very hilly, rocky/ exposed brick works) and it has helped him having fronts for extra traction - I did ride him bare shod to begin with and he slipped a lot underfoot.

I'd rather my lad be bare shod - cheaper. But hey - as long as he's okay - whats the main thing.


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## Littlelegs (11 January 2013)

Because I am obsessed with my angle grinder, & hooves are a good surface in constant supply to work on.


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## RainbowDash (11 January 2013)

Littlelegs said:



			Because I am obsessed with my angle grinder, & hooves are a good surface in constant supply to work on.
		
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**Like**


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## FfionWinnie (11 January 2013)

ChristmasSparkles said:



			It's cheap.....  

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Too right


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## mandwhy (11 January 2013)

If my horse could work without shoes then I wouldn't bother shoeing her, why would I shoes are expensive and not wearing shoes is not a new concept. To be honest although I am interested in hoof health etc, we have a lot of gravel/hardcore tracks here and I expect most horses would struggle, I struggle in my wellies! So she has shoes on all 4 currently although may try with backs off.*

Each to their own, I just find it amazing how much effort people put in, feeding endless hay all year as the grass is all wrong and supplements and 'barefoot trimmers', oh and hoof boots!


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## TrasaM (11 January 2013)

It's curious why people wanting the best for their horses should be considered obsessed.  

It's also odd that nothing much has changed in shoe design in the centuries since humans started to nail iron to their horses hooves. Is it because the concept was so perfect that there was no need to change it?..doubtful. 
The only people with a vested interest in shoeing horses are farriers and there would be no incentive for them to innovate themselves out of a job. So the only other viable option to iron shoes is no shoes.


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## devonlass (11 January 2013)

It's a bit like me asking why the obsession with being shod,which I wouldn't do on here as would be a sure fire way to start a row,just like this thread no doubt

Besides there are far more worrying things in the world that people are obsessed with,reality tv shows spring to mind


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## Oberon (11 January 2013)

Jasper99 said:



			Hi everyone, I'm new *waves* 

Now before you start, I'm *not* a troll, I have been lurking for a long time and I wanted to join purely to ask the question : 

Why is there such an obsession with going barefoot? 

Please don't kill me 

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I haven't noticed an obsession with barefoot in real life, but if you are alluding to the amount of hoof/barefoot related posts on this forum in particular - then it is because over the last few years this forum has become a 'safe place' to discuss such things.

It wasn't always so....believe me .

You often get spates of barefoot related posts at certain times.

It's heartbreaking when otherwise healthy horses are lost to hoof related lamenesses and associated problems that follow, when it could have been prevented. So I am delighted that people are comfortable enough to keep asking questions.


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## Liath (11 January 2013)

Not an obsession for me, a necessity- all previous horses have been shod, this one can't hold shoes and has awful feet- which my farrier agrees is because of shoeing.. so his shoes have come off- if it works, great, if not, shoes will go back on- but at the moment he is doing well and his feet look better than they have for ages.


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## kellybee (11 January 2013)

Well, evolution didn't put horses on my shoes and I don't ride on the road so I don't shoe them. I think it's sensible to give them what they need to have healthy feet (nature didn't intend for horses to eat hard feed or haylage either) but I never knew there was such an interest in the technicalities of going 'barefoot' til I joined the forum. 

We always thought of it as just plain and simple unshod. In fact I always thought it was normal to have your horses unshod if they aren't doing lots of roadwork or aren't in need of studs, but that's just me.


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## mcnaughty (11 January 2013)

Why use the emotive word "obsession"?

OP is just trying to start a fight, I suggest we ignore.... bet some people cannot help themselves though!  I've only read page 1, wonder how it is going??


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## HorsesHavingFun (11 January 2013)

Not really an 'obsession'. In the wild horses don't have shoes, why would they need them now?


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## Charley657 (11 January 2013)

peony said:



			I wouldn't say it's an 'obsession'.

My two are barefoot because they don't wear shoes in the wild - I believe in keeping their lifestyle as close to natural as I can - and having shoes nailed on to them restricts the hooves' natural growth pattern, which will cause problem after problem.

Not to mention the constant losing of shoes in the mud, the risk of shoes twisting and puncturing their sole, the forking out of over £70 a month to get their feet done (as opposed to £25 every two months for a trim)....

How long did horses survive before us humans came along and started modifying them to suit our lives?
		
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So you don't ride or handle your horses at all and they are free to roam just like they would in the wild too?

I don't think its necessary if horses are not in work or in light work with no roads.  But I do personally think its a fashion thing at the moment, that and shoes are expensive and people want to save money.


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## madmav (11 January 2013)

Ye olde humans didn't wear shoes either, but I definitely don't want to walk down the road without them.
My only experience of an unshod horse was a share a while ago who seemed to go on tip-toes over any stony, rough ground. I felt I should get off and carry him over it. He was also constantly lame with foot absesses.
If you can get it to work, I love the idea of being more in tune with the nature of the 'real horse'. But then, nature didn't expect someone to be sitting on them, riding them over varying terrain etc, and breeding them to be so much bigger than the original species.


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## hackedoff (11 January 2013)

oh  you have started the thread I planned to start! don't understand the barefoot lobby either, I don't mean the ones who sensibly discuss practicalities but the ones who insist it suits every horse which I don't believe to be the case from my experience

 I had a much loved Welsh cob who was always much happier with shoes than without. this was irrespective of diet, exercise whatever. tried  going shoeless 3 x times.he couldn't cope and I wouldn't put a horse who felt how he did about it again. longest he went without shoes was 8 months many years ago, had blood in the white line when trimmed to re shoe. 

can never get my head round the evolution didn't give my horse shoes argument,as far as I can see evolution didn't give horses tarmac road surfaces or hairless apes sitting on them either.

fwiw I now have a Fell pony who has never been shod and quite happily trundles along the stoniest going. trimmed by my farrier and fed and kept the same way as my old boy was. in my view current pony isn't barefoot she just isn't shod!


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## Heilo (11 January 2013)

I don't think op is trying to start a fight. I think it is just due to the sheer volume of threads of barefoot and barefoot trimmers etc.
It was always called unshod until recently where it is now barefoot.
I think the biggest advantage is cost and therefore I will have any horse not in much work unshod.
However everyone stating they never had shoes in wild why now. Well just common sense is in the wild they are not on roads for hours after end. They are not being ridden therefore no added weight. They are not being schooled and jumped for say an hour most days on sand or whatever surface which wears down the hoof also. We put the horse into a completely different environment so we can't expect them to cope with everything in the same way as they used to in the wild. 
Therefore the majority of competition horses will have shoes, leisure horses not. However exceptions for both. It's very much what suits both horses and owners just as long as its not to the detriment of the horse
My horse has shoes , my daughters pony does not and my youngster does not but shall see how he is once in ridden work.


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## Patterdale (11 January 2013)

I'm sure it's not an obsession for people who keep their horses I that way 

HOWEVER I totally understand why you would use that word in relation to these boards, as sometimes when you log on every other thread is about barefoot and it can sometimes seem to take over a little.


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## windand rain (12 January 2013)

three of four of mine do none to little work so dont need shoes
fourth one doesnt need shoes for up to 2 hours road work Yet, she does a few pleasure rides at the minute if she needs shoes to go further she will be shod if not she wont. She certainly doesnt need shoes for x country, dressage and showjumping or even showing but the fashion there is for shoes so I will have to see about that.
She is farrier trimmed as necessary often only every 12 weeks to keep her feet balanced she wears them evenly most of the time but can stub the toes a bit


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## Liath (12 January 2013)

Perhaps the current raft of threads about barefoot/unshod can be explained easily.

It's been an appallingly wet year, we none of us can deny that... wet conditions wreck horses feet as I'm sure most of us can relate to... lots of wrecked feet/lost shoes/lame horses causes lots of concerned owners looking for a way to help their horses... if the horses feet won't hold shoes, there's not much option other than taking them off... hence lots of 'new to this' barefoot questions from caring horse owners trying to do the right thing for their horses.... just a thought based on my own experience...


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## devonlass (12 January 2013)

Charley657 said:



			But I do personally think its a fashion thing at the moment, that and shoes are expensive and people want to save money.
		
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Damn my motives for barefoot have been rumbled

Although I don't see what's wrong with having fashionable hooves,not everyone can pull off the naked look you know,it does take a certain amount of style

You're way off with the saving money though,I wish!! 

Decent trimmers are not cheap,neither are supplements,or the feed to hide them in and then there's the hoof boots,I could go on lol


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## Spring Feather (12 January 2013)

Over here in north America it is uncommon to see shod horses.  If anyone in my area turned up to view a horse that was shod they would ask what is wrong with it!  And they would be absolutely serious!  None of my horses are shod.  Some of mine compete and the rest are either pleasure riding horses and/or broodmares (all are sound I hasten to add).  Most people in my area have no use for shoes on their horses so no obsession here ... it's just normal


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## devonlass (12 January 2013)

Spring Feather said:



			Over here in north America it is uncommon to see shod horses.  If anyone in my area turned up to view a horse that was shod they would ask what is wrong with it!  And they would be absolutely serious!  None of my horses are shod.  Some of mine compete and the rest are either pleasure riding horses and/or broodmares (all are sound I hasten to add).  Most people in my area have no use for shoes on their horses so no obsession here ... it's just normal 

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This is what always surprises me when people make threads like this.They seem to think it's so unusual,when in actual fact in more countries than not being barefoot is perfectly normal.

I don't care what anyone does with their horses feet but I do find it an uneducated and blinkered view to assume that barefoot is some sort of unusual practice and those of us who do it have some sort of obsessive fashion fad thing going on


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## Daytona (12 January 2013)

In not sure what you mean either people who have barefoot horses are obsessed with it or the amount if people who do it.

For what it's worth I don't know a single person at my yard who has a unshod horse,  and at my last yard which had 70 horses again not horse , well competition type horse had bare feet.  So round my way there is no obsession so to speak


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## Spotsrock (12 January 2013)

I've never had a barefoot horse. My cobs were/are both unshod, old dear is unshod and tb has no shoes behind but i've never had barefoot with all the trimmers and diet that goes with it.


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## tallyho! (12 January 2013)

Sorry, but I think Jasper IS a troll. 1 post since he/she started it and absolutely no interactions with anybody. Very typical troll behaviour... someone who is not a lurker, but a regular user who is bored with current discussions on bits, hunting and french trainers.

Don't rise to it.

What you do with your horse is no one's business. If you need help shod or unshod there are people (trimmers and farriers) around to help and give advice. Don't fall out over it people. We've (I have) all fallen for this too many times.


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## Shysmum (12 January 2013)

Oh dear.


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## Jasper99 (12 January 2013)

Thanks for your replies  

I'm sorry I used the word obsession, I should have re-phrased it better, apologies. I also wasn't trying to start a fight, honestly, my apologies again. Lastly I'm not a troll, my apologies if I came across as one. 

Thank you.


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## Pale Rider (12 January 2013)

Spring Feather said:



			Over here in north America it is uncommon to see shod horses.  If anyone in my area turned up to view a horse that was shod they would ask what is wrong with it!  And they would be absolutely serious!  None of my horses are shod.  Some of mine compete and the rest are either pleasure riding horses and/or broodmares (all are sound I hasten to add).  Most people in my area have no use for shoes on their horses so no obsession here ... it's just normal 

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Cracking post this, I'm sure it will be the same here eventually.

Whats wrong with it?  I love that!


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## Pale Rider (12 January 2013)

Jasper99 said:



			Thanks for your replies  

I'm sorry I used the word obsession, I should have re-phrased it better, apologies. I also wasn't trying to start a fight, honestly, my apologies again. Lastly I'm not a troll, my apologies if I came across as one. 

Thank you.
		
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Hello Jasper99, welcome, some people are pretty obsessive about Trolls , see them everywhere.


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## Gloi (12 January 2013)

I'd had trouble with my pony having week feet all his life and and only really went barefoot as a last resort as I didn't expect his to be able to do much work without shoes as he was always lame if he lost one. However, having put some work in over the past 18 months his feet have recovered from the damage the shoes had caused them and he can go for miles on the roads with no problems and I wish I could have done it years ago. I think a big reason more people are going barefoot now is the vast improvement in hoof boots. I'd tried some several years ago and they were useless and fell off all the time, but these days they are great although he only needs them occasionally.


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## Brightbay (12 January 2013)

Interesting 

We tend to see things that we think are relevant to us 

I watch HHO forum, and I see a lot of posts on "what bit should I use".  I also see a lot of posts on "What rug should I use?" and "What should I feed my horse?".  And I see a lot of posts on "How/when should I take my horse barefoot and what will happen?".

So I would say people are curious, and interested in finding out others' opinions on things like rugs, bits, feeds and barefoot.  

Are they obsessed with rugs, bits, feed and barefoot?  Maybe - some are, some aren't   In each thread you get posters saying "I am sick of people asking what rugs to put on their horse", "I am so bored with threads about what to feed", "People are obsessed with barefoot"... and yet, give it a few days and there will be another thread.

So it's something people are interested in.  When they're interested in something, they want to find out more, and to do that, they ask questions.  No problem there at all, IMO (I have learned a lot about rugs, bits, feed and barefoot through reading HHO threads ).


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## Pale Rider (12 January 2013)

Jasper99 said:



			Hi everyone, I'm new *waves* 

Now before you start, I'm *not* a troll, I have been lurking for a long time and I wanted to join purely to ask the question : 

Why is there such an obsession with going barefoot? 

Please don't kill me 

Click to expand...

I am pretty obsessive about barefoot, the reason being is I used to have to keep all my horses (30) of them shod. It was a bloody nightmare, every six weeks the shoes would be worn out, and often we'd be shoeing through the same nail holes. Loseing shoes miles from home, horses going lame for no real reason and the hundreds of pounds wasted on something I found that I didn't need to be doing anyway. Horses self maintaining, or needing very little rasping, overall massive improvement in health generally and certainly stronger healthier feet and legs.
I don't have that many horses any more, but I still feel that the farriers that took the thousands of pounds off me over the years had it under false pretences. Not true, I know, it was my own fault for not getting into barefoot sooner. So yes I'm fairly obsessive about it.


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## MrsNorris (12 January 2013)

I think its just that people these days are more informed about the harm shoeing can cause. Nailing a bit of metal onto a living creature has always struck me as odd, and, when you think about it, can't really be good for said creature.  
IMO shoes are damaging and should only be used if very necessary, and with long breaks during the year to allow the hooves to recover.
In the past I have had my horse shod for a few months at a time when we were doing a lot of roadwork, and I was always shocked at how badly his feet deteriorated in just a few months.
I now keep him barefoot all the time and use boots if necessary.


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## Janah (12 January 2013)

I got into barefoot sort of accidently.  My boy wasn't being ridden due to an injury to me and it seemed sensible to take his shoes off.  My farrier was all for it and said it would improve his hooves to have a break from shoes.

Then I started seeing posts on here about barefoot so started feeding for his feet. I led him out on the road at first gradually doing more and more and never put shoes back on. My farrier is pleased with the way my boy's feet have improved.


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## guido16 (12 January 2013)

Littlelegs said:



			Because I am obsessed with my angle grinder, & hooves are a good surface in constant supply to work on.
		
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When the hell did you get an angle grinder? I thought we agreed I use the angle grinder, you use the chainsaw?

Going back in your word I see.


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## WelshD (12 January 2013)

I don't think it's generally an obsession 

I suppose you could call those who are barefoot geeks obsessed in that they really learn about nutrition and the inner and outer condition of the hoof, how it's trimmed and balanced etc

But then when you see the sheer number of people on here that turn to them for help you realise that the 'obsessives' are bl**dy useful and helpful people!


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## Littlelegs (12 January 2013)

No, no, no guido, we agreed I get the angle grinder & the chainsaw, you get an angle grinder & pneumatic drill. Stop trying to hog the grinder.


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## Coblover63 (12 January 2013)

Trends come and go within the horse world.... at the moment you're hard-pressed to find a brand new bridle that doesn't have a flash strap on it 

However, I don't think "barefoot" is a trend, I think it is more to do with an evolving knowledge by us owners.  The more we know, the more we can make a balanced decision on what is best for our horses.  Years ago, one saddle fitted all, back checks never happened, you had a jute rug for indoors and a New Zealand rug for outdoors.  And we all feared laminitis and strangles as they surely meant the end for your horse, which would be lucky to live to the age of 20!  However, as our knowledge has improved, so has our care.  Horses' life spans have increased and their care has improved.  We've learned that grass is actually the enemy for some horses, that laminitis is more likely due to hormonal changes than just "too much suger".  We now realise that they don't always HAVE to wear shoes.  Some do, some don't and there will always be arguments about what is right and what is wrong.  You have to choose what is the best and right path for YOUR horse.... and not give a hoot about your neighbour!


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## guido16 (12 January 2013)

Littlelegs said:



			No, no, no guido, we agreed I get the angle grinder & the chainsaw, you get an angle grinder & pneumatic drill. Stop trying to hog the grinder.
		
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Well, fine. But as long as you don't get the cordless, diamond lined, go faster, cordless or not, smooth to the foot, bespoke grinder that you fine well know I use and advertise as "the best a horse can get"


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## BWa (12 January 2013)

I'm not sure I want to class it as 'fashion'. My horse was shod when I got him so I carried on, but reading barefoot posts on here made something click and think it could help protect his old legs and improve his way of going if I did give it a go. Six weeks in and it's going well so far. The way I see it is the more people who try it and the anecdotal evidence and literature there is, the more people will try it, the more threads there will be.


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## amandap (12 January 2013)

Lol op! I'm with Brightbay, I think it's an interest in barefoot. The obsession comes later.


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## Littlelegs (12 January 2013)

Ok deal, just don't use my slogan 'if carlsberg made angle grinders'. Or 'take two tools into the stable? I just grind, & go'.


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## Rosiejazzandpia (12 January 2013)

Its cheap. My horse is part tb but has solid hooves so goes well barefoot. Also, she lives in a field that is +30acres and all the horses in the field tend to have a mad half hour every day and you wouldnt believe how many shoes come flying off. 
Also a kick from my mare hurts far less that when my friends horse kicked me (she had shoes on and broke 3 of my ribs!!)


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## Kikke (12 January 2013)

No obsession just don't see the need to hammer pieces of metal to their feet with nails going trough them as they are very happy without and can do anything anybody else with shoes can


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## MerrySherryRider (12 January 2013)

Sometimes I think I must have clicked on a barefoot forum instead of HHO with numerous posts discussing the minutiae of naked hooves or multiple photos of hooves asking does my horse look good in this.

 However, the posts although more frequent, are generally less extreme and the more aggressive  style has become, largely more chilled.

 Everything has a time, people got bored with parelli bashing and moved on to barefoot and farriers as anti- Christs.
Now the latest hot topic is RSPCA bashing.

 However, the barefoot advice is usually knowledgeable and useful and if it makes people think twice about whether their horse does actually need shoes, then its not so bad.


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## varkie (12 January 2013)

Charley657 said:



			I don't think its necessary if horses are not in work or in light work with no roads.  But I do personally think its a fashion thing at the moment, that and shoes are expensive and people want to save money.
		
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*snort*
I suppose that depends whether you consider it light work with no roads to be 2-3 hour hacks, 4-5 times a week, schooling for an hour the other days mostly flatwork but some jumping, working on all terrain (roads, flinty bridleways, etc).  I have successfully had horses at this level of work barefoot with absolutely no issues at all.

I don't use an expensive trimmer, I don't feed expensive supplements routinely, I don't spend hours doing things to my equines feet.  They are trimmed sensibly & regularly, I am aware & careful of what I feed and what is in it.  They don't wear boots.  

I didn't start because I wanted to save money, I originally started as I bought my first youngster, and as she grew up and we started her in work, she just never needed shoes.  I also had a pony who didn't need shoes.  Then I decided to take my OHs big mare barefoot (HW cob, shod all her life), which went brilliantly.  And I've never shod anything since.  All mine now stride out happily, sound like shod horses, and cope with whatever is asked of them.  I've taken a number of horses/ponies from shod to barefoot successfully, even when surrounded by those telling me it would never work, so I'm pretty confident in it.

Hardly a fashion either for me - I began well over 10 years ago now.


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## Pale Rider (12 January 2013)

Charley657 said:



			I don't think its necessary if horses are not in work or in light work with no roads.  But I do personally think its a fashion thing at the moment, that and shoes are expensive and people want to save money.
		
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Don't agree with this at all, lol.


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## guido16 (12 January 2013)

guido16 said:



			Well, fine. But as long as you don't get the cordless, diamond lined, go faster, cordless or not, smooth to the foot, bespoke grinder that you fine well know I use and advertise as "the best a horse can get"
		
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## othbsits (12 January 2013)

Well maybe an obsession.  From a breeders standpoint, I am trying to breed the soundest feet and legs possible.  Non of mine wear shoes and are in varying amount of work.  My farrier tells me my horses hooves are hard on his tools because they are good hooves.  If I breed good straight legs with a balanced skeleton, I shouldn't need corrective shoeing unless that balance would be set off at some time by injury.  So to me, it's a big reflection on the type of horse I'm breeding.


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## ester (12 January 2013)

Charley657 said:



			I don't think its necessary if horses are not in work or in light work with no roads.  But I do personally think its a fashion thing at the moment, that and shoes are expensive and people want to save money.
		
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Or people are finding that it is actually a good thing for horses' feet  having never questioned the use of shoes previously. 

My obsession stems from having lame horse in shoes to a sound one without so something worked 

It does however mean I now look at every horse I meet from the feet upwards


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## Marydoll (12 January 2013)

I think its more increasing knowledge and education, foot care is evolving and through this discussions are on the increase. 
My horses feet are treated as per their requirements, ive 2 unshod and 1 shod because thats what suits them.


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## stargirl88 (12 January 2013)

Its not an obsession as such, although I have to admit, since going barefoot I always, always ALWAYS look at horses hooves now. Comparing, looking at how they move, etc etc. Especially other barefoot horses but I do have a peak when the farrier takes the shoes off the shod horses at the yard!


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## Brightbay (12 January 2013)

lol, yes - it's interest and curiosity.  

The obsession kicks in _after_ you've removed the shoes, when you go through a period of obsessing about whether the feet are too hot, too cold, imbalanced, thrushy, have wrinkles, don't have wrinkles, land heel first, land toe first, land medially or laterally...

Obsessive barefoot horse owners have even been known to buy laser thermometers to compare hoof temperatures.  Not me, obviously, I would _never_ be that obsessed


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## Clava (12 January 2013)

Brightbay said:



			lol, yes - it's interest and curiosity.  

The obsession kicks in _after_ you've removed the shoes, when you go through a period of obsessing about whether the feet are too hot, too cold, imbalanced, thrushy, have wrinkles, don't have wrinkles, land heel first, land toe first, land medially or laterally...

Obsessive barefoot horse owners have even been known to buy laser thermometers to compare hoof temperatures.  Not me, obviously, I would _never_ be that obsessed 

Click to expand...

I find it an interesting obession  especially as the  bare hoof reflects the health of the whole horse. You just don't get the sae feedback and interest from a shod hoof.


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## catkin (12 January 2013)

If you have 'obsessive' tendencies you are going to be obsessive whatever.

I now have ponies who have never been shod, in the past I have had horses who wore shoes - I was just as obsessive about their feet back then as I am now, just looking for different things. Instead of checking clenches and shoe wear and signs of thrush daily I now look at hoof shape and hoof wear and for any signs of thrush daily - and I still listen to the hoofbeats intensely for any warning signs of stiffness or lameness.

The only 'issue' I have with the Stealth Ponies is that the little darlings can creep about where they are not supposed to be without us hearing them


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## Kallibear (12 January 2013)

Charley657 said:



			I don't think its necessary if horses are not in work or in light work with no roads.  But I do personally think its a fashion thing at the moment, that and shoes are expensive and people want to save money.
		
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Which pretty much sums up the misconception of barefoot horses. Sigh. You hear it so often, even commonly from those who have unshod horses that don't do much. In fact they actually teach the idea (that it's only unworked or horses that don't do much Roadwork) at vet school! They actually teach that if a horse you go to see has no shoes on, you can safely assume it's not ridden much. Ditto BHS.

Lots of roadwork is GOOD for their feet!

I always think the opposite: what is the obsession with putting shoes on?! Two riding schools near me spend many thousands of pounds every year shoeing their horses, none of which ever do anything but school work, ever. Yet putting shoes on is just 'what you do' , like putting rugs on, feeding it nice food and making sure it's shiney and well brushed: it's something you do to be a Good Horse Owner.


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## wellsat (12 January 2013)

For me its a choice about the healthiest way to keep my horse. Barefoot horses are able to naturally wear their hooves in a way that suits them. You're much less likely to find a barefoot horse with long toes or under run heels compared to one that is shod. My new horse came to me with less than perfect hooves so with my farriers support he had his shoes taken off and he's been growing healthy new ones which he's shaping naturally with plenty of road work.

And its cheaper although not necessarily easier!


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## suestowford (12 January 2013)

Marydoll said:



			I think its more increasing knowledge and education, foot care is evolving and through this discussions are on the increase.
		
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^^ this.

Like when the air jackets first came out, there was lots of talk about those. Now we know more about how the hoof works, we talk about it ... a lot!


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## Clava (12 January 2013)

Kallibear said:



			I always think the opposite: what is the obsession with putting shoes on?! Two riding schools near me spend many thousands of pounds every year shoeing their horses, none of which ever do anything but school work, ever. Yet putting shoes on is just 'what you do' , like putting rugs on, feeding it nice food and making sure it's shiney and well brushed: it's something you do to be a Good Horse Owner.
		
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I have to agree, it is so often just done when a young horse starts to do more roadwork without assessing any needs or any other reasons why the horse may not be coping.


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## Kallibear (12 January 2013)

Clava said:



			I have to agree, it is so often just done when a young horse starts to do more roadwork without assessing any needs or any other reasons why the horse may not be coping.
		
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Yep, hear that a lot too. The automatic nailing on of shoes when the horse is broken. I've heard people saying how they can't send it off for breaking yet until it's got it's shoes on. 

Well, of course the poor sod isn't going to cope if it's spent 4yrs of it's life standing in a soft field, 6 weeks poncing round a soft arena and now you're expecting it to do an hour + daily of road work straight away with no conditioning?! Not to mention it's prob stopped growing much but still likely to be eating the same high sugar diet or worse, had it's feed increases now it's  a Proper Horse.


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## catkin (12 January 2013)

Clava said:



			I have to agree, it is so often just done when a young horse starts to do more roadwork without assessing any ted a young horse needs or any other reasons why the horse may not be coping.
		
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Agree - and having started a youngster who is still barefoot, the hooves were actually a very good barometer of when the horse needed to slow down/have a break/was growing. If you can see it in the feet the chances are that the other physical structures like muscles and bones and tendons need time to mature and strengthen too. As the horse has matured her feet have got tougher and tougher.


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## amandap (12 January 2013)

catkin said:



			Agree - and having started a youngster who is still barefoot, the hooves were actually a very good barometer of when the horse needed to slow down/have a break/was growing. If you can see it in the feet the chances are that the other physical structures like muscles and bones and tendons need time to mature and strengthen too. As the horse has matured her feet have got tougher and tougher.
		
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I think this is the really important point in all this bf/shod debate. My understanding is that it takes as long for structures in the hoof such as the digital cushion to fully mature as it does the body, so long as it gets the exercize/stimulation as the horse grows. Putting shoes on youngsters largely stops this by lifting the hoof off the ground (taking the frog and sole out of action) and clamping it or stabilizing it. It's the gradual exposure to varying terrain that actually strengthens the hoof structures.

Pete Ramey, Bowker et al describe some older long term shod hooves as having the digital cushion of a foal or yearling. Of course barefoot hooves can have the same problems if not getting enough exercize and if not trimmed if management requires trimming.

ps. Sorry, babbled slightly off catkin's point but I agree the hooves can be a barometer of what the horse can manage.


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## Brightbay (12 January 2013)

Yes, the roadwork one always makes me laugh 

I get guilt attacks if I _don't _manage to get my (barefoot) horse out on tarmac for a good 8 - 10 hours a week.  That's what keeps his feet in good shape to do other things.

Also, roads are the most forgiving surface for barefoot horses - I practically never have a time when we can't cope with tarmac.  We do, in the spring, have times when we can't cope with lots of sharp pointy stones underfoot  - when that happens, guess what we do?  Yes, more roadwork


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## cptrayes (12 January 2013)

OP if you are talking about people posting about the topic, why are you not asking

"why all this obsession about saddles?"

"why all this obsession about rugs?"

"why all this obsession about bitting?"

and many other topics which have more threads started about them than barefoot.



Do you have an actual question about barefoot that any of us can help you with?


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## Jasper99 (12 January 2013)

cptrayes said:



			OP if you are talking about people posting about the topic, why are you not asking

"why all this obsession about saddles?"

"why all this obsession about rugs?"

"why all this obsession about bitting?"

and many other topics which have more threads started about them than barefoot.



Do you have an actual question about barefoot that any of us can help you with?
		
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I am asking about barefoot as I wanted to know why people choose to go barefoot. IMO I see more threads about barefoot than any other but maybe I'm wrong, I apologise.


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## TrasaM (12 January 2013)

There have been quite a few farrier threads recently too


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## cptrayes (12 January 2013)

I am asking about barefoot as I wanted to know why people choose to go barefoot. IMO I see more threads about barefoot than any other but maybe I'm wrong, I apologise.
		
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I haven't counted but I'm sure you are wrong about barefoot having more posts than any other subject. There are several right now running about bitting, for example. 

Why didn't you just ask people why they went barefoot if that's what you wanted to know?


I did it because I had two horses who were going worse and worse in shoes. One couldn't walk up stony tracks, the other had one front foot that was very badly asymmetric and he pointed it all the time.  I took off the shoes and the one that couldn't walk up stony tracks in shoes was doing those tracks without shoes after 3 months. And the other horse, who two farriers told me would never be able to work without shoes, evented BE Novice after 9 months with a symmetric foot that he never pointed. (pointing is often a symptom of navicular, by the way)

I haven't looked back since. My current hunter, neither of those two horses, did nearly four hours roadwork today because the field were too wet to hunt over.  I have a rehab who is sound and now jumping who has been 4 years unsound in shoes and on field rest.  I had another two years ago who now hunts/wins elementary dressage/wins national breed shows with the people who I gave him to.

I am passionate about barefoot, but I think my passion is completely understandable when through barefoot I have restored to soundness multiple horses that farriers and vets couldn't help.


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## cptrayes (12 January 2013)

Jasper99 there are so many of us now (I am rarely alone in the hunting field on a barefoot horse these days) that the better question, I think, would now be

"why would you NOT try barefoot?"


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## Mythical (12 January 2013)

Jasper99 said:



			I am asking about barefoot as I wanted to know why people choose to go barefoot. IMO I see more threads about barefoot than any other but maybe I'm wrong, I apologise.
		
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I chose to go barefoot (or, more correctly, so stay barefoot) because my farrier advised me to, other people agreed with him and I decided it was the right thing to do at the time.  If the horse's workload changes, and he advises me to put shoes on, I'll give that the same thought and consideration.


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## tallyho! (12 January 2013)

I suppose its better than asking "why do people wants kids"...


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## Jasper99 (12 January 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Jasper99 there are so many of us now (I am rarely alone in the hunting field on a barefoot horse these days) that the better question, I think, would now be

"why would you NOT try barefoot?"
		
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*Sighs* Sorry I got it wrong.


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## Flame_ (12 January 2013)

I'm not a barefoot fanatic, but I have dealt with a lot of hoof problems and had, on my own, formed a very poor view of remedial shoeing, particularly wedges. So to discover on the internet, a bunch of people saying not only that remedial shoeing is not the bees knees, but that barefoot is a genuine alternative way to treat and prevent foot problems was really interesting. Sooner or later everyone has to deal with horses' feet issues - where they are, the job they have to do and how much can go wrong with them make that a given fact really, and hoof care is something that's normally very important to all horse owners because of this. That's not obsessive, just giving a lot of thought, interest and care to something really important IMO. It was quite brave of the earlier barefoot crusaders to stick their necks out in the first place and start shouting that people, including the experts, were doing something wrong.


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## ozpoz (12 January 2013)

Jasper99 you don't have to apologise - most of us are on a learning curve,and a very interesting one too.
I would say it has taken me a year to really understand how to keep my horse comfortable without shoes. I didn't realise just how much improvement was possible in a foot after 4 decades of horse ownership 
Thanks to some really knowledgable people on this site! All the drip feed of information really makes a difference.


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## micki (12 January 2013)

I took my horses shoes off because they were having a break while i was pregnant and i just never put them back on when i started to ride again as my horses feet looked the best i had ever seen them and didn't want ruin them. I did some reserch on the interenet and found loads of info about riding horses barefoot, it was just the thing to do if you rode a horse you put shoes on it but the research i did has totally changed my mind. Now the 4 horses i have are kept barefoot and will never have shoes on them unless they need them for any reason, i can't think what that reason would ever be though.


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## Skippys Mum (12 January 2013)

I originally decided to go barefoot as a purely cost saving exercise over winter.  I do get a bit obsessed with anything different that I do with Arnie but luckily for me, Brightbay lives close enough to take the brunt of it .  

I started by sorting out his diet and then off came the shoes.  I didnt ride for 6 weeks but I knew I wouldnt be riding over this period which is why I picked it for my trial.  The original plan was to keep them off for possibly 2 or 3 shoeing cycles.

I was obsessed.  I religiously tweaked his diet, photographed feet, picked out feet, scrubbed feet, sprayed feet, booted feet and barely a week went by that poor Brightbay didnt get dragged over to look at his feet.

Then it was 4 cycles since he had been shod - and his feet had never looked better (at this point I was still photographing them regularly) - and he was going really really well.  I thought perhaps it was worth persevering so I decided to give it a full year.  Booting was a bit of a faff but worth it for the money I was saving and I had achieved everything I had wanted to do over the year (sj, xc, pleasure rides, loads of hacking).

Slowly, I got less obsessive.  I missed the odd days spraying.  I stopped taking photos.  And suddenly it dawned on me that he didnt need his back boots - and then he didnt need his front boots.

So now I am not obsessive - I just sit back and wonder what to spend the £600 odd quid a year I am saving.  I enjoy riding my horse that has never moved better or jumped better and I dont need to worry about him slipping on the roads. If I hadnt had help from here and Phoenix forum (and poor, longsuffering Brightbay) I would still be shoeing him.

Yep, lifes a bitch


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## Jazzy B (12 January 2013)

Liath said:



			Perhaps the current raft of threads about barefoot/unshod can be explained easily.

It's been an appallingly wet year, we none of us can deny that... wet conditions wreck horses feet as I'm sure most of us can relate to... lots of wrecked feet/lost shoes/lame horses causes lots of concerned owners looking for a way to help their horses... if the horses feet won't hold shoes, there's not much option other than taking them off... hence lots of 'new to this' barefoot questions from caring horse owners trying to do the right thing for their horses.... just a thought based on my own experience... 

Click to expand...

^^^ this, I took my horses shoes off for a few months when it was really bad and he was ripping his shoes off every 5 minutes.  I tried barefootness for 3 months and I have new found respect for anyone that has to or goes down this route, it may be cheaper but not for the faint hearted.  We are surrounded by gravel and hardcore and it was just a nightmare for me.


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## diamonddogs (12 January 2013)

My last and current horses both barefoot. I choose barefoot because I'm lucky enough to have had two horses with amazing feet that simply don't need shoes.

I don't feed specially for barefoot, and my farrier trims every two to three months @ £20 a throw. The shod horses on our yard see the farrier every 5-6 weeks, more often if they lose shoes (at a rate of one horse, one shoe per week during the mud season), but Sham's feet are good and strong and grow really slowly, specially in winter. She just has her feet picked out twice a day and a dollop of Kevin Bacon's hoof dressing on when her feet are dry

She was wearing fronts when I got her, and they hardly showed any wear at all, so when we needed the farrier the plan was for a refit, but she lost one in the field the day before our appointment. My farrier was quite happy with the condition of her feet, and recommended leaving shoes off to see how she went - that was a year ago and she's been fine, except for an abscess last summer on her toe, so she had a few splits and cracks as the hole grew out, but her hoof was soon back to normal.

I'm also lucky to have a farrier who I can trust, and won't shoe them just to get the money if you want to try barefoot.

I'd say that other than the cost, the biggest advantage of no shoes is if they tread on your foot they can feel they've done it, and release you immediately instead of grinding your toes into the concrete like shod horses do!


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## webble (12 January 2013)

ChristmasSparkles said:



			It's cheap.....  

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this ^^^ that is all


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## coffeeandabagel (12 January 2013)

I for one am very pleased it is such a hot topic. I had never considered taking shoes off - my last horse had lots of problems which looking back might have been solved by taking his shoes off. He ended his days in wedges and heart bars and still lame (had colic and was PTS).

No my gorgeous new boy has some serious joint issues I am going to take his shoes off - I never would have considered it if I hadnt seen stuff on here about Rockley Farm, or read CPTrayes blog. So thanks guys = I am learning so much from you all.
It might become an obsession for me - his health does tend to bring that side of my personality out!


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## MagicMelon (13 January 2013)

BillieBlitzen said:



			Why not? If shoes are an unnecessary intervention for my horse then why would I use them? 

My horse doesn't need oats so I don't feed them.
Doesn't need a Pelham so she doesn't wear one.
Doesn't need a grackle.
Doesn't need shoes.........

All of these things have their place but not for my horse.

So why would I shoe?
		
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As above.  I think the issue is that shoeing is seen as the default - so many people just shoe because they think they're meant to. The attitude needs to change where people only shoe if they NEED to and barefoot (or at least unshod) is the norm.  I get so annoyed with people on here making barefoot V shoeing into an arguement.  There's no arguement, every horse is different and ever person uses their horse differently.   Personally, I have two horses who are unshod (ie. trimmed by my farrier) as they may have shoes put back on if they need them (depending on their work and if I need studs etc. like when jumping on grass - prior to my grey being injured, he was shod all summer to event then unshod over winter when jumping indoors) and my 2 veteran ponies are barefoot (trimmed by a barefoot trimmer).


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## Megibo (13 January 2013)

My farrier sent me down the 'barefoot' route with my little mare by saying she could do with her back shoes off...then a few years later said why not take her front shoes off too? She's been fine since. 

I got my bigger mare in May 12 and she only had front shoes on so I decided to try her without shoes too.. Did some research, asked some Q's on here and changed their diets. Little mare immediately not footy and when I took the shoes off bigger mare I don't think she even noticed. Still hasn't and they both walk over gravel etc daily.. so why would I hammer some metal to perfectly good feet?


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## ShadowFlame (14 January 2013)

I wouldn't say it's a "fad" either. It's cheaper, easier, I never have to worry about lost shoes, he doesn't slip as much, helps circulation, he's able to self-trim to an extent (wear on roads - less farrier visits), no compacted snowballs in his hooves in weather like this...

He's not sore, he doesn't need them. Why would I put shoes on him?


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## Bertolie (14 January 2013)

Genuine question - can someone tell me the difference between 'unshod' and 'barefoot'? Is there a difference or is it the same?


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## MerrySherryRider (14 January 2013)

Bertolie said:



			Genuine question - can someone tell me the difference between 'unshod' and 'barefoot'? Is there a difference or is it the same?
		
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I use the term unshod for my working, farrier trimmed horses. Don't use an unqualified person on my horses and don't agonise about balancing minerals. They get plenty of fresh air, grass/high fibre forage and exercise.

Barefoot implies more of a fashion for a hoof obsessed approach to horse care rather than caring for the whole animal.


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## wench (14 January 2013)

I had one of my young tb's unshod as it was cheaper, and she wasnt in much work at all, so didnt need them. She walked over the concrete yard perfectly well, and was happy going down the road for a walk/trot.

Current one has fronts on, which I wont be taking off, and nothing on the back.


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## Clava (14 January 2013)

horserider said:



			Barefoot implies more of a fashion for a hoof obsessed approach to horse care rather than caring for the whole animal.
		
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You are joking? Barefoot people are usually obsessed with nutrition for the whole horse which is reflected in the hooves. It is always about the whole animal from the way they move to exact minerals for peak health and therefore healthy hooves.


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## ester (14 January 2013)

I those with 'barefoot' trimmed horses do care for the whole animal too  

Bertolie.. barefoot was a term that started in the USA and as most of the trimming schools have come over from that way it has stuck a bit. It isn't technically incorrect either. Some prefer the term to unshod as unshod would indicate that the default for a horse was shod.


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## MerrySherryRider (14 January 2013)

Clava said:



			You are joking?
		
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Um, no. I look at the whole animal. Physical and emotional. Coat, eyes, hooves, muscle tone, teeth, the way it eats, urine output, droppings, movement, social interaction, interest in its environment, apathy, excitability, attitude, ability to heal from infection, etc etc.


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## micki (14 January 2013)

horserider said:



			Barefoot implies more of a fashion for a hoof obsessed approach to horse care rather than caring for the whole animal.
		
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I don't mind people saying i'm obsessed with my horses feet but i can take offence at someone saying i don't care for the rest of my horse. I like to know that the whole of my horse is in perfect health, and that goes for all 4 horses, and not just their feet.


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## TwoStroke (14 January 2013)

horserider said:



			Um, no. I look at the whole animal. Physical and emotional. Coat, eyes, hooves, muscle tone, teeth, the way it eats, urine output, droppings, movement, social interaction, interest in its environment, apathy, excitability, attitude, ability to heal from infection, etc etc.
		
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That doesn't mean that barefooters don't, though . All these things and more can affect hoof health, so barefooters are concerned with all of them. A healthy hoof is a reflection of a healthy horse, therefore barefoot management is extremely holistic (in the non weird mystic way!).


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## ester (14 January 2013)

horserider said:



			Um, no. I look at the whole animal. Physical and emotional. Coat, eyes, hooves, muscle tone, teeth, the way it eats, urine output, droppings, movement, social interaction, interest in its environment, apathy, excitability, attitude, ability to heal from infection, etc etc.
		
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and why do you think those with barefoot horses don't?


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## Clava (14 January 2013)

horserider said:



			Um, no. I look at the whole animal. Physical and emotional. Coat, eyes, hooves, muscle tone, teeth, the way it eats, urine output, droppings, movement, social interaction, interest in its environment, apathy, excitability, attitude, ability to heal from infection, etc etc.
		
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Any barefooters don't?? Those with barefoot horses can also look at unshod hooves and how the horse copes with those hooves on different terrian unaffected by shoes and that shows an owner even more about the health of the whole horse. Shod hooves just don't give you the same feedback.


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## cptrayes (14 January 2013)

horserider said:



			Barefoot implies more of a fashion for a hoof obsessed approach to horse care rather than caring for the whole animal.
		
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Oh God I haven't laughed so much in a long, long time. Thankyou horserider.

You really don't know anything about people who manage barefoot horses, do you?


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## pip6 (14 January 2013)

IMHO there are people who come across as obssesive. I'd prefer mine to be without (as one currently is), but if the need arises then I have shoes put on (as the other one has). Trouble with systems is they don't work for every horse, & there are those so obsessive in their belief of my way is the right & only way, that they fail to consider all possibilities. Same as 'natural' horsemanship (ther's the natural word that's often used as a justuification, sorry nothing natural about riding horses), saying their way is the only way & others aren't as good or don't truely understand. Horses for courses as the saying goes. Not downing NH, but saying any system shouldn't be obsessively followed by a devoted follower, rather the needs of the horse should dictate its training/care (not the needs of the owner). Get good/knowledgable owners & bad ones across the who spectrum of horse ownership. 

It's the feeling that if you convert to 'the system' you have seen the light that reads as though people are obsessive to me. 2 penneths worth.


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## pansymouse (14 January 2013)

I do think the term barefoot is a bit fashiony, I prefer unshod.  The reason my mare is unshod is she has lovely strong feet and she slips on the road if she has shoes and having nursed one horse through broken knees I have no desire to go there again.  I do hack quite a lot and have never found the need to have her shod but would do so if my farrier recommended it.  She doesn't have any special diet to support her shoeless status, she just has a good basic well balanced diet suitable for age, breed and workload.


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## MerrySherryRider (14 January 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Oh God I haven't laughed so much in a long, long time. Thankyou horserider.

You really don't know anything about people who manage barefoot horses, do you?
		
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No, only what I read on here.

I know plenty of people who have working unshod horses though and we're too busy riding to fanny about with putting on hoof boots, balancing minerals, listening to trimmers give lenghty life style advice, scrubbing hooves and applying all those pots of lotions and potions sold on barefooty sites, and mucking out because grass is not good for horses.

 All the people I know/have known, with unshod horses just use a hoofpick, good forage, good farrier and plenty of exercise.

No obsessing, no fannying.


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## lachlanandmarcus (14 January 2013)

I think one other reason for more people having horses unshod/barefoot is that mobile xray machines have helped people see much more clearly the functional advantages for the hoof esp in relation to the navicular area. 

And the lack of work a lot of horses do these days mean shoes really arent as necessary as they might have been when they were working horses doing hard work 6 days a week from morning til night. 

And the use of modern fertilisers on a lot of land makes it more likely that hoof issues are going to arise as the ryegrass/fertiliser mix is a toxic one for horses. 

I dont think most owners of unshod horses think that grass is poison...necessarily. BUT horses are originally designed for sparse scrubby grass, so it is true to say that many of them (esp those with metabolic issues) are at risk if they are exposed to rich lush single species grass. 

I dont see it as an obsession, just progress from 'everything shod' to an approach that takes each case on its merits and needs. Personally Im very happy to see that, and dont think anyone should feel threatened by it.


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## Kallibear (14 January 2013)

horserider said:



			No, only what I read on here.

I know plentyof people who have working unshod horses thugh and we're too busy riding to fanny about with putting on hoof boots, balancing minerals, listening to trimmers give lenghty life style advice, scrubbing hooves and applying all those pots of lotions and potions sold on barefooty sites, and mucking out because grass is not good for horses.

 All the people I know/have known, with unshod horses just use a hoofpick, good forage, good farrier and plenty of exercise.

No obsessing, no fannying.
		
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Thats the majority of barefoot horses on here too. 


And majority of the rest of the horses you know with shoes is because the owner can't be bothered putting effort into finding out what's wrong with their horse so just stick shoes on it.

They're owners of the type of horses that those more interested in the horses holistic health do have to faff about to get it right. Or the horse where they've shoved shoes on it to mask all sorts of problems until the horse falls to bits.

Maybe that's the difference between unshod and barefoot horses: the amount of effort and care the owner puts in


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## MerrySherryRider (14 January 2013)

Kallibear said:



			And most of those I know with shoes can't be bothered putting effort into finding out what's wrong with their horse so just stick shoes on it.
		
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Maybe there's nothing wrong with their horse ? Some shod horses are actually sound. 
Radical thought for the barefoot obsessed eh ?


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## Spring Feather (14 January 2013)

ester said:



			Bertolie.. barefoot was a term that started in the USA and as most of the trimming schools have come over from that way it has stuck a bit.
		
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I don't know if this is true, it may well be, but I have to say I've not heard many people over here saying their horse is "barefoot".  I've really only heard that term when discussing mustangs feet over here ... the rest of the time I only ever hear it on H&H.  It really isn't a term we use because as I mentioned earlier it's the norm for most horses here to not wear shoes so the only time it comes into question is if a horse does wear shoes and it's that which raises eyebrows and we become very suspicious as to *why* the horse is wearing shoes especially if it is just a low/mid level competition horse or pleasure riding horse.


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## OldNag (14 January 2013)

well for me it's a simple choice

Saves me a fortune in shoes - and time too (trim for mine takes minutes, and he doesn't need them often).
Nice and grippy on the roads.

So unless he had a problem being barefoot, I see no reason to go and get him shod.


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## OldNag (14 January 2013)

horserider said:



			No, only what I read on here.

I know plenty of people who have working unshod horses though and we're too busy riding to fanny about with putting on hoof boots, balancing minerals, listening to trimmers give lenghty life style advice, scrubbing hooves and applying all those pots of lotions and potions sold on barefooty sites, and mucking out because grass is not good for horses.

 All the people I know/have known, with unshod horses just use a hoofpick, good forage, good farrier and plenty of exercise.

No obsessing, no fannying.
		
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Not having shoes doesn't, surely, imply the need to obsess or fanny about?  I don't believe I do either.  I have simply done my research on best possible diet to keep him barefoot, and I don't put any lotions or potions on.  I don't scrub his hooves and I've never owned a hoof boot. I do own a hoofpick, I grant you that. Does that count as specialist equipment


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## Goldenstar (14 January 2013)

I really don't understand why this had to be an either or situation I have four horses ATM , three are BF one is shod the shod is hunted hard and would not have taken the level of work without shoes he was working unshod from April till mid October then he was shod mid March his shoes willbe off and he'll work lightly all summer unshod .
Another is working hard and hunting ( although does less than hunting that the horse above ) he's been BF well over a year and does very well .
My TB arrived shod terrible feet sore after shoeing,  collapsed heels and long toes the whole TB shod too long list of issues he has been BF since April feet have improved enormously will still get better he will spend around half the year in shoes half BF I think.
My cob in light work BF ATM has a not straight foreleg will also spend his year about half and half.
Why does it have to be either or ? Only one thing is black and white all horses however sound in shoes need to spend part of every year out of shoes , all good farriers will tell you that.
I have horses to use the horses I have I am committed to long term ie I intend they will spend all there lives here so as a commitment to their long term soundness they need a minimum twelve week shoeing break in each year and if I need to shoe them for whatever reason I will.
The main difference now is because of the BF approach I see that a break from shoes need not mean no horse to work train and enjoy you can remove the shoes and still work your horse.


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## Kallibear (14 January 2013)

horserider said:



			Maybe there's nothing wrong with their horse ? Some shod horses are actually sound. 
Radical thought for the barefoot obsessed eh ?
		
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Most horses will look sound with shoes on. Their feet have to be really knackered not to be.That's why people put shoes on! But if the horses are sound without shoes, why've they got them on? Bit odd unless they're just brainwashed BHS traditionalists. And if they're NOT sound without shoes, can the owner just not be arsed to find out why and rather just have shoes put on?

The barefoot taliban are those that have made the effort? As you have already pointed out, it cam be such a naff sometimes and just shoving shoes on is SOOOOO much easier.


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## Cazza525 (14 January 2013)

To say that if you shoe your horse you don't look after it well enough is a tad ott really.

I think people who are able to manage a horse in full work, including a variety of terrain barefoot are extremely lucky. To have to use expensive hoof boots is kind of counteracting the arguament for barefoot surely? If the balance was right in their nutrition then surely they should be able to cope? 

I shoe when and if I need too. I try and get away with fronts only and get positively excited about the farriers bill with either unshod or fronts only. The truth of it is though, I do a heck of a lot of road work and my horse has not got the toughest feet (warmblood). She can mangage for quite a while but then for her comfort (and she most definately is more comfortable) she has first a set of fronts on and then usually a back set as well within a few weeks. She has had long periods of rest in her life at grass where she always has shoes off.

Each to their own I tink, but I would no way scold someone for not going barefoot after implying they don't look after their horses welfare enough. That is just a silly presumption


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## catkin (14 January 2013)

OldNag said:



			Not having shoes doesn't, surely, imply the need to obsess or fanny about?  I don't believe I do either.  I have simply done my research on best possible diet to keep him barefoot, and I don't put any lotions or potions on.  I don't scrub his hooves and I've never owned a hoof boot. I do own a hoofpick, I grant you that. Does that count as specialist equipment 

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Perhaps others think I DO obsess, why?,  because I scrub out feet on the rare occasions I find a touch of thrush? because I have hoofboots stored in the tack-trunk that I use sometimes if needed? because I am interested in giving my ponies the best diet possible for their type and workload? 

 The funny thing is that my pal up the road who has shod horses does exactly the same!!


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## Kallibear (14 January 2013)

Welfare is keeping your horse comfortable. If they need shoes to be comfortable, put shoes on them. Effort comes in when trying to make them comfortable without resorting to shoes.

However they probably DON'T need shoes to be comfortable. With knowledge and effort you would be able to make most horses comfortable working hard without shoes. 'Luck' is having a horse who need naff all changes in management to be comfortable. Bad luck is having a far more sensitive horse who needs much 'faffing' to make it comfortable. I have both. My cob is the lucky horse. The ISH is the faffing horse. He's your 'warmblood' cazza. He will need a huge amount of effort and faffing to make him comfortable and I need to decide if it's worth it.


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## Firewell (14 January 2013)

Ive had a couple of horses that were barefoot and they coped fine with normal ridden work, I didn't do anything special, just picked their feet out and got them trimmed...
However most horses i've owned need shoes for the work.
Personally I think people get obsessed about things when in fact just a balanced approach taking each horse as individual is the best. IMO I think barefoot has it's place and so do shoes.


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## ester (14 January 2013)

Cazza525 said:



			I think people who are able to manage a horse in full work, including a variety of terrain barefoot are extremely lucky. To have to use expensive hoof boots is kind of counteracting the arguament for barefoot surely? If the balance was right in their nutrition then surely they should be able to cope?
		
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nutrition and environment and their own metabolic state, the 2nd not being all that easy to manage for the many that keep them at livery . Also lots of us have horses that have pathologies which were the initial reason we took the shoes off initially so they are starting from a way back if that makes sense. 

Boots really aren't that expensive in comparison to shoes... mine were £120 (well 90 cos one was half price) and they will be a year old (and likely still going) in March.


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## thatsmygirl (14 January 2013)

This thread started so wellas well.

Iv known crippled horses due to trying to follow the trend.
Iv got 5 bare and 1 shod. Why's the 1 shod? Because iv had her 10 years and I know her inside out and since her shoes came off she's sound and in work but she is NOT happy in herself. She's much happier with shoes on and that's that. I would rather have her comfy I'm afraid. 
Shoe or bare is up to the owners and the horses comfort.


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## MerrySherryRider (14 January 2013)

Kallibear said:



			Most horses will look sound with shoes on. A horse is either sound or its not. Their feet have to be really knackered not to be.There are many reasons for lameness other than the footThat's why people put shoes on! But if the horses are sound without shoes, why've they got them on?Because they want to SJ/XC and use studs so horse doesn't break its neck ? Bit odd unless they're just brainwashed BHS traditionalists.Ask one of our international eventers if they are brainwashed BHS tradtionalists And if they're NOT sound without shoes, can the owner just not be arsed to find out why and rather just have shoes put on?Do you know an owner who 'can't be arsed to find out why its lame ? Any person who does not seek appropriate vet treatment for a horse shod or unshod is guilty of nelgect. Why don't you report these people ?

The barefoot taliban are those that have made the effort? As you have already pointed out, it cam be such a naff sometimes and just shoving shoes on is SOOOOO much easier.
		
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I merely pointed out that being an obsessed barefoot follower is. Having an shod horse is not  the easy option,it requires finding and working with a good farrier who's shoeing suits the horse as an individual. It requires knowledge from an informed owner not blind faith.


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## Kallibear (14 January 2013)

_Most horses will look sound with shoes on_. A horse is either sound or its not. 

Horse is unsound /uncomfortable without out shoes but fine with. It is lame or not?

_Their feet have to be really knackered not to be_.There are many reasons for lameness other than the foot

Many other causes but 60% of lameness is in of caused by the foot. We're talking about feet and therefore currently talking about foot lameness.

_ But if the horses are sound without shoes, why've they got them on_?
Because they want to SJ/XC and use studs so horse doesn't break its neck ? 
Studs are one of the only benefits of shoes. Barefoot horses have far better grip than more people think but nothing beats inch long studs on wet grass. But very few people shoe purely so they can stud up.

_Bit odd unless they're just brainwashed BHS traditionalists_.Ask one of our international eventers if they are brainwashed BHS tradtionalists 

The highest level of competitors are usually the MOST traditional in their method of keeping horse?!

_And if they're NOT sound without shoes, can the owner just not be arsed to find out why and rather just have shoes put on?_Do you know an owner who 'can't be arsed to find out why its lame ? Any person who does not seek appropriate vet treatment for a horse shod or unshod is guilty of nelgect. Why don't you report these people ?

So now you think that a horse who isn't comfortable without shoes IS lame?? You said earlier they weren't. I know LOADS of people who have put shoes on their horses because it's easier than 'faffing about/putting effort in' to find out why they're not comfy without shoes.

_The barefoot taliban are those that have made the effort? As you have already pointed out, it cam be such a naff sometimes and just shoving shoes on is SOOOOO much easier_. 

I merely pointed out that being an obsessed barefoot follower is. Having an shod horse is not the easy option,it requires finding and working with a good farrier who's shoeing suits the horse as an individual. It requires knowledge from an informed owner not blind faith.  

The effort of 'finding a good farrier' hardly equates to the huge amount of effort  (sorry, faffing) that goes into keeping a sensitive PITA horse comfy barefoot.

It really boils down to whether you think it's WORTH all the faffing and how damaging you think shoeing is.


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## tallyho! (14 January 2013)

Since when do studs prevent injury?


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## MerrySherryRider (14 January 2013)

Kallibear said:



_Most horses will look sound with shoes on_. A horse is either sound or its not. 

Horse is unsound /uncomfortable without out shoes but fine with. It is lame or not?

_Their feet have to be really knackered not to be_.There are many reasons for lameness other than the foot

Many other causes but 60% of lameness is in of caused by the foot. We're talking about feet and therefore currently talking about foot lameness.

_ But if the horses are sound without shoes, why've they got them on_?
Because they want to SJ/XC and use studs so horse doesn't break its neck ? 
Studs are one of the only benefits of shoes. Barefoot horses have far better grip than more people think but nothing beats inch long studs on wet grass. But very few people shoe purely so they can stud up.

_Bit odd unless they're just brainwashed BHS traditionalists_.Ask one of our international eventers if they are brainwashed BHS tradtionalists 

The highest level of competitors are usually the MOST traditional in their method of keeping horse?!

_And if they're NOT sound without shoes, can the owner just not be arsed to find out why and rather just have shoes put on?_Do you know an owner who 'can't be arsed to find out why its lame ? Any person who does not seek appropriate vet treatment for a horse shod or unshod is guilty of nelgect. Why don't you report these people ?

So now you think that a horse who isn't comfortable without shoes IS lame?? You said earlier they weren't. I know LOADS of people who have put shoes on their horses because it's easier than 'faffing about/putting effort in' to find out why they're not comfy without shoes.

_The barefoot taliban are those that have made the effort? As you have already pointed out, it cam be such a naff sometimes and just shoving shoes on is SOOOOO much easier_. 

I merely pointed out that being an obsessed barefoot follower is. Having an shod horse is not the easy option,it requires finding and working with a good farrier who's shoeing suits the horse as an individual. It requires knowledge from an informed owner not blind faith.  

The effort of 'finding a good farrier' hardly equates to the huge amount of effort  (sorry, faffing) that goes into keeping a sensitive PITA horse comfy barefoot.

It really boils down to whether you think it's WORTH all the faffing and how damaging you think shoeing is.
		
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Definition of lameness; Alteration in the horse's gait. The cause of which could be manifold. 
Does an unshod horse that stumbles painfully across a gravel path present as sound to you ? Does it feel pain ? Would you not try to resolve the cause of the pain so the horse could move soundly again ? 

Is a horse with a stone in its foot lame until the stone is removed ?


I don't find it a faff keeping my horses unshod, despite having different horses and in different areas. I'd rather spend my time riding than obsessing.


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## TwoStroke (14 January 2013)

horserider said:



			Definition of lameness; Alteration in the horse's gait. The cause of which could be manifold. 
Does an unshod horse that stumbles painfully across a gravel path present as sound to you ? Does it feel pain ? Would you not try to resolve the cause of the pain so the horse could move soundly again ?
		
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All barefooters would try to resolve the CAUSE. Shoeing is not resolving the cause, it is masking the symptom.


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## Hippona (14 January 2013)

TwoStroke said:



			All barefooters would try to resolve the CAUSE. Shoeing is not resolving the cause, it is masking the symptom.
		
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Indeed.

If your horse is footie.....and you shoe it......then its still footie.
Only its got shoes on....which hides the footie-ness, not cured it.


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## Kallibear (14 January 2013)

horserider said:



			Definition of lameness; Alteration in the horse's gait. The cause of which could be manifold. 
Does an unshod horse that stumbles painfully across a gravel path present as sound to you ? Does it feel pain ? *Would you not try to resolve the cause of the pain so the horse could move soundly again ? *

Is a horse with a stone in its foot lame until the stone is removed ?


I don't find it a faff keeping my horses unshod, despite having different horses and in different areas. I'd rather spend my time riding than obsessing.
		
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Eh, yes? You seem to be under the impression that those who 'faff' are quite happy letting their horse be lame (in all it's  definitions?

The difference between between you and the 'obsessed' is you think it's acceptable/normal for an unshod  horse to be lame and will quite happily  just put shoes on to make it comfortable. The Obsessed thinks 'why the hell ia my horse not comfortable. What's wrong with it? Lets try and fix the root cause'.

And Im quite capable of multitasking : Im usually riding  whilst obsessed about his feet  Often thinking 'thank god he's not got shoes on' whilst hammering up the road at a trot with the hunt/common ride.


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## tallyho! (14 January 2013)

horserider said:



			Definition of lameness; Alteration in the horse's gait. The cause of which could be manifold. 
Does an unshod horse that stumbles painfully across a gravel path present as sound to you ? Does it feel pain ? Would you not try to resolve the cause of the pain so the horse could move soundly again ? 

Is a horse with a stone in its foot lame until the stone is removed ?


I don't find it a faff keeping my horses unshod, despite having different horses and in different areas. I'd rather spend my time riding than obsessing.
		
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So what? Why does it matter if someone spends more time "obsessing" than you do?


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## cptrayes (14 January 2013)

horserider said:



			No, only what I read on here.

I know plenty of people who have working unshod horses though and we're too busy riding to fanny about with putting on hoof boots, balancing minerals, listening to trimmers give lenghty life style advice, scrubbing hooves and applying all those pots of lotions and potions sold on barefooty sites, and mucking out because grass is not good for horses.

 All the people I know/have known, with unshod horses just use a hoofpick, good forage, good farrier and plenty of exercise.

No obsessing, no fannying.
		
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So the only people you know who had horses who were't in the easy-peasy category, went straight back to shoes?

That's fine, no problems, but for three of the horses I have had, continuing with shoes would have meant the death of two and a life stuck in a field from 8 years old for the other.

I'll bet those and other horses like them are glad as glad that I don't have the same aversion to "fannying around" that you do


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## cptrayes (14 January 2013)

thatsmygirl said:



			This thread started so wellas well.

Iv known crippled horses due to trying to follow the trend.
Iv got 5 bare and 1 shod. Why's the 1 shod? Because iv had her 10 years and I know her inside out and since her shoes came off she's sound and in work but she is NOT happy in herself. She's much happier with shoes on and that's that. I would rather have her comfy I'm afraid. 
Shoe or bare is up to the owners and the horses comfort.
		
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I have no problem with you having shod her, but can you tell us if you went straight for shoes or did anything to adjust her diet and her lifestyle to get her fully fit without them on first?


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## cptrayes (14 January 2013)

horserider said:



I merely pointed out that being an obsessed barefoot follower is. Having an shod horse is not  the easy option,it requires finding and working with a good farrier who's shoeing suits the horse as an individual. It requires knowledge from an informed owner not blind faith. 

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Speaking from experience on many horses now, it's a heck of a lot more responsibility taking full control of your horse's hooves and havign a farrier is much less stressful except for replacing shoe loss, waiting for them when they are late, and on the purse.


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## micki (14 January 2013)

cptrayes said:



			I have no problem with you having shod her, but can you tell us if you went straight for shoes or did anything to adjust her diet and her lifestyle to get her fully fit without them on first?
		
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To be honest does it really matter. Being without shoes didn't work for that particular horse, shoes do that is what matters in my opinion and i will always say that going without is best if it works which it does for mine and i'm willing to faf to get it right for them.


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## cptrayes (14 January 2013)

Do you know an owner who 'can't be arsed to find out why its lame ? Any person who does not seek appropriate vet treatment for a horse shod or unshod is guilty of nelgect. Why don't you report these people ?
		
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I know loads, you know loads. Every person who thinks that because their unsound horse has come sound with shoes, it's now a sound horse.  Only a small percentage of them are right, the rest have sick feet which would have come right barefoot if the owner had been able (not everyone can, especially in a livery yard) to do a bit more "faffing about".


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## cptrayes (14 January 2013)

micki said:



			To be honest does it really matter. Being without shoes didn't work for that particular horse, shoes do that is what matters in my opinion and i will always say that going without is best if it works which it does for mine and i'm willing to faf to get it right for them.
		
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Yes it matters. We are on a public forum where people are being criticised from time to time for having horses that are temporarily footie and being told to put shoes on them. 

Those people need to know whether they are being advised by people who genuinely have a horse who cannot go barefoot, or by someone who was not prepared (or not in a position) to do some tweeks to diet, environment and exercise that would swiftly have resulted in the horse being absolutely fine with no shoes on.


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## Shysmum (14 January 2013)

You know what - reading through this thread, there it seems there has been so much of a turnaround in HHO's attitude to all things barefoot - really interesting. I bet in a few hundred years, barefoot could be the norm  - owners seem to be wising up that hoof health is a total reflection of horse health.


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## JFTDWS (14 January 2013)

cptrayes said:



*I have no problem with you having shod her,* but can you tell us if you went straight for shoes or did anything to adjust her diet and her lifestyle to get her fully fit without them on first?
		
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That's big of you 


With threads like these, it's no wonder newbies think the forum is "obsessed" with barefoot.  They just go on and on and on, bickering and picking arguments about people's choices with their horses.  Does it really matter, provided they're sound and their owners are happy?


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## amandap (14 January 2013)

JFTD said:



			Does it really matter, provided they're sound and their owners are happy?
		
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Ah,a point to rouse me, but I've nailed my fingers to the table so I can't post about it and get involved in the bickering.


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## cptrayes (14 January 2013)

horserider said:



			I know plenty of people who have working unshod horses though and we're too busy riding to fanny about with .......... balancing minerals
		
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The problem I have with this statement of yours Horserider, is that it shows that you are completely unaware how lucky you are to live in an area where your grazing and the grass cut for your forage are already well balanced. 

Many people live in areas either severely depleted in essential minerals (calcium being a favourite) or with a heavy overload (iron and manganese being the favourites here).

Now, if I didn't care two hoots about mineral balancing either, I'd be saying "one of my horses is a shire cross with great big strong feet and he does fine without shoes on, but the other two need shoes and if they need them then that's fine by me, they get what they need."

And in the meantime, those two more sensitive horses have iron and manganese overload, which is causing them copper deficiency, which is not quite strong enough to show in any way except that in spring and summer when they eat only local forage (my grass) instead of imported haylage, one would be footie on stones and the other would be laminitic to the point of being too sore to be ridden unless taken off the grass.

Your luck in where your horses live allows you to faff less than some other people do to keep their horses barefoot, and yet you mock them for it. Nice, eh?


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## PandorasJar (14 January 2013)

Prior to this forum I honestly never though about the terms because I simply didn't have shoes on most or one was shod. So I use barefoot and unshod, both simply meaning that they don't have shoes on.
None have different diets and none have anything put on the hoof (my farrier was happy with me putting some things on as would just waste my money, unhappy with some as could do damage) and no hoof boots as they've got hardy feet. No youngsters are yet ridden so if the need arises I will look at different options at the time and the broodies are fine without.
The most important thing to me is getting a good farrier/trimmer who is willing to do the best thing for the horse and happy to direct you but also listen to queries/suggestions you have. With a friends horse whose feet were crumbling shoes were whipped off (told it needed shoes as bad feet) they are now rock solid and look great. Not the case for all but in this one the shoes were causing the crumbly feet, not saving them.

I think it can get very preachy on both sides and think the majority of horses don't need shoes if managed in a certain way, but that way isn't always possible and some horses simply need them. I think they are also invaluable in some remedial work.


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## Kallibear (14 January 2013)

cptrayes said:



			The problem I have with this statement of yours Horserider, is that it shows that you are completely unaware how lucky you are to live in an area where your grazign and the grass cut for your forage are already well balanced. 

Many people live in areas either severely depleted in essential minerals (calcium being a favourite) or with a heavy overload (iron and manganese being the favourites here).

Now, if I didn't care two hoots about mineral balancing either, I'd be saying "one of my horses is a shire cross with great big strong feet and he does fine without shoes on, but the other two need shoes and if they need them then that's fine by me, they get what they need."

And in the meantime, those two more sensitive horses have iron and manganese overload, which is causing them copper deficiency, which is not quite strong enough to show in any way except that in spring and summer when they eat only local forage (my grass) instead of imported haylage, one would be footie on stones and the other would be lamintic.

Your luck in where your horses live allows you to faff less than some other people, and yet you mock them for it. Nice, eh?
		
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Don't forget she's probably  also 'lucky' she has a diet tolerant horse. Like Piper, who can pretty much eat what the he want and still rock crunches.

JDFT : same could be said for saddle fitting : Saddle doesn't look a great fit but horse seems to move ok and they don't bite when I tack up, plus it's dead comfy so I love it. Takes a while to find out if the shoes , sorry saddle, is doing any damage.


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## cptrayes (14 January 2013)

JFTD said:



			That's big of you 


With threads like these, it's no wonder newbies think the forum is "obsessed" with barefoot.  They just go on and on and on, bickering and picking arguments about people's choices with their horses.  Does it really matter, provided they're sound and their owners are happy?
		
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How do you want me to word it? I'm trying to express the fact that I am not obessive about whether her horse wears shoes or not.


Yes, it matters, there is more research coming out that many horses are actively damaged by shoes. The last peice I saw had a significant measurable reduction in size of the foot at the coronet band after only a few weeks. If it turns out to be the case that shoes actively damage, then the fewer which wear them, for the least possible time, is surely the way to go?

And therefore it is important that we find out which horses can and can't go without shoes and WHY. Putting shoes on a footie horse without exploring whether anything can be done to keep that horse shoe free, although it may be the only thing that particular owner can do, does not help an  owner who is trying to avoid doing that.

So if an owner posts on a thread "my horse could not do it", I personally like to know what else was tried before re-shoeing,  so that I can add it to the databank of advice that I would give to other people, some of whom, yes shock horror  , I advise to shoe.


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## JFTDWS (14 January 2013)

cptrayes said:



			How do you want me to word it? I'm trying to express the fact that I am not obessive about whether her horse wears shoes or not.

Damn right - it's her choice, her horse - even if you disagree...

Yes, it matters, there is more research coming out that many horses are actively damaged by shoes...
		
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There are many things people do which are imperfect for equine health, particularly if you believe all the (mostly low quality) research which is available.  People do it because it is impractical to do otherwise, and while the horse is sound and has QoL, I don't actually agree that it matters.


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## Spring Feather (14 January 2013)

PandorasJar said:



			None have different diets and none have anything put on the hoof (my farrier was happy with me putting some things on as would just waste my money, unhappy with some as could do damage) and no hoof boots as they've got hardy feet. No youngsters are yet ridden so if the need arises I will look at different options at the time and the broodies are fine without.
		
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Outwith this forum, neither have I heard about all this palaver with keeping horses unshod and I never ever hear anyone referring to their horse as barefoot.  The only time, and I know I keep harping on about it, any eyebrows are raised where I live is if someone has shoes on their horses feet and everyone automatically thinks there's something wrong with the horse if it has to wear shoes.  I have over 50 horses, none wear shoes (although I certainly would have them shod if I felt it best for the individual horse), none have all these extra special lotions and potions or super-duper feedstuffs   Mine are all on just a good balanced diet with good grazing in the summer and fed a nutrtionally balanced feed and quality hay during the winter months.  Sooo maybe the OP does have a point after all?  Because more and more it really is starting to look like some do have an obsession (on both sides of the divide I hasten to add)


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## cptrayes (14 January 2013)

JFTD said:



			There are many things people do which are imperfect for equine health, particularly if you believe all the (mostly low quality) research which is available.  People do it because it is impractical to do otherwise, and while the horse is sound and has QoL, I don't actually agree that it matters.
		
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We will have to differ if you do not think that avoidable things that damage horses do not matter or if you think that wearing shoes is not avoidable for the majority of horses.


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## JFTDWS (14 January 2013)

Kallibear said:



			JDFT : same could be said for saddle fitting : Saddle doesn't look a great fit but horse seems to move ok and they don't bite when I tack up, plus it's dead comfy so I love it. Takes a while to find out if the shoes , sorry saddle, is doing any damage.
		
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I don't have a problem with that either - provided the horse is sound and happy in his work, I reckon the saddle probably isn't actually too much of a problem...  Not many horses will work properly without complaint in a saddle which doesn't fit, ime.


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## micki (14 January 2013)

I agree with you cptrayes and i would love to see every horse going without shoes but i just can't see it happening. I know how people react when they know i don't put shoes on my horses, they just don't believe that they can possibly go on the roads ever. It's why i've got to the point that if the owner is going to put shoes back on their horse it doesn't matter what anyone says to them they will do it. The only ones that listen are those that really want to listen and not put the shoes back on at the first problem. It's why i said does it matter if the owner had checked everything out before putting shoes back on.


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## cptrayes (14 January 2013)

Spring Feather said:



			Outwith this forum, neither have I heard about all this palaver with keeping horses unshod and I never ever hear anyone referring to their horse as barefoot.  The only time, and I know I keep harping on about it, any eyebrows are raised where I live is if someone has shoes on their horses feet and everyone automatically thinks there's something wrong with the horse if it has to wear shoes.  I have over 50 horses, none wear shoes (although I certainly would have them shod if I felt it best for the individual horse), none have all these extra special lotions and potions or super-duper feedstuffs   Mine are all on just a good balanced diet with good grazing in the summer and fed a nutrtionally balanced feed and quality hay during the winter months.  Sooo maybe the OP does have a point after all?  Because more and more it really is starting to look like some do have an obsession (on both sides of the divide I hasten to add)
		
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I think you are not only in the States, but in a part of it which is very favourable to barefoot horses and where MOST horses have no shoes on?

You really aren't in a good position to judge about how much effort can be needed to keep a horse in dank wet UK with severe mineral imbalances in a very high proportion of grazing, with farriers and vets who are taught that shoes are absolutely required for any horse that is in hard work, especially on roads.

I have friends who trained trimming in the US and who live in the US and it's a different world, horsewise!


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## JFTDWS (14 January 2013)

cptrayes said:



			We will have to differ if you do not think that avoidable things that damage horses do not matter or if you think that wearing shoes is not avoidable for the majority of horses.
		
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I think it is no more damaging than other management choices which are common in this country, and that it is similarly impractical to avoid shoeing some working horses.  I actually don't care whether people choose to shoe or not, and I don't see why you feel it is your business to preach at people whose opinions differ from your own.


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## TrasaM (14 January 2013)

Shysmum said:



			You know what - reading through this thread, there it seems there has been so much of a turnaround in HHO's attitude to all things barefoot - really interesting. I bet in a few hundred years, barefoot could be the norm  - owners seem to be wising up that hoof health is a total reflection of horse health.
		
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I certainly hope so.


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## cptrayes (14 January 2013)

JFTD said:



			Not many horses will work properly without complaint in a saddle which doesn't fit, ime.
		
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At any event I go to I will see at least 30% of the horses working "happily" in saddles which, by my definition, do not fit. Favourites are too high in front and too long in the panel, closely followed by extremely small bearing surface in relation to rider weight and panel too flat/wide for an A-frame back shape. 

In my opinion, horses are far more long-suffering than you think, and this goes for foot pain as well.


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## cptrayes (14 January 2013)

JFTD said:



			I think it is no more damaging than other management choices which are common in this country, and that it is similarly impractical to avoid shoeing some working horses.  I actually don't care whether people choose to shoe or not, and I don't see why you feel it is your business to preach at people whose opinions differ from your own.
		
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I don't.

I answer people's questions when they ask them on here and when other people give contradictory advice that I do not think is right for the poster who asked the question, I ask them to explain more.  If they choose to engage in an argument and I think they are wrong, I will tell them why I think they are wrong in exactly the same way as they are telling me that I am wrong. That's just good argument and discussion. 

If you choose to interpret that as preaching, so be it.


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## BeesKnees (14 January 2013)

Spring Feather said:



			Outwith this forum, neither have I heard about all this palaver with keeping horses unshod and I never ever hear anyone referring to their horse as barefoot.  The only time, and I know I keep harping on about it, any eyebrows are raised where I live is if someone has shoes on their horses feet and everyone automatically thinks there's something wrong with the horse if it has to wear shoes.  I have over 50 horses, none wear shoes (although I certainly would have them shod if I felt it best for the individual horse), none have all these extra special lotions and potions or super-duper feedstuffs   Mine are all on just a good balanced diet with good grazing in the summer and fed a nutrtionally balanced feed and quality hay during the winter months.  Sooo maybe the OP does have a point after all?  Because more and more it really is starting to look like some do have an obsession (on both sides of the divide I hasten to add)
		
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It's really interesting that you say shoeing is considered suspect where you are (US?) but rather than suggesting obsession on the part of those on the forum, it makes me wonder what the differences are? Why is barefoot, unshod, whatever you want to call it, apparently more straightforward where you are? 

Is it possible that in this wet, muddy country, with managed pasture designed over the years for milk production, owners have to be more obsessional in order to do what comes easy where you are? 

Have to say I've learnt so much from the BFers on here and find it all fascinating


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## JFTDWS (14 January 2013)

cptrayes said:



			I answer people's questions when they ask them on here and when other people give contradictory advice that I do not think is right for the poster who asked the question, I ask them to explain more.  If they choose to engage in an argument and I think they are wrong, I will tell them why I think they are wrong in exactly the same way as they are telling me that I am wrong. That's just good argument and discussion.
		
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Actually, in my opinion, for a discussion to be "good" both parties have to be prepared to consider the other's opinion, and you appear so convinced of the research you quote, and so entrenched in your own opinion that shoes are evil, that you will not consider any other perspective.  And thus, yes I do believe you are preaching.  

Threads like these, where you (and others, on both sides of the argument) pick holes in other people's choices (the implication of your previous post that another poster shoes her horse because she didn't bother to rehab it) don't, in my opinion, do your cause any favours.  Solicited advice is one thing.  Advice to put shoes on a lame horse is one thing (though you may not agree with it).  Unsolicited "advice" about why barefoot didn't work for another poster is just unnecessary.


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## BeesKnees (14 January 2013)

JFTD said:



			I think it is no more damaging than other management choices which are common in this country, and that it is similarly impractical to avoid shoeing some working horses.  I actually don't care whether people choose to shoe or not, and I don't see why you feel it is your business to preach at people whose opinions differ from your own.
		
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To be fair, if someone comes on a thread about Bf and states that their horses can't go without shoes, it is understandable that people with a lot of experience will ask questions! 

Really cptrayes can't win, when she makes it clear she doesn't mind either way what people do, you have a go, and when she asks them about their BF management as she might have suggestions on how issues could be managed, you have a go!


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## JFTDWS (14 January 2013)

BeesKnees said:



			To be fair, if someone comes on a thread about Bf and states that their horses can't go without shoes, it is understandable that people with a lot of experience will ask questions! 

Really cptrayes can't win, when she makes it clear she doesn't mind either way what people do, you have a go, and when she asks them about their BF management as she might have suggestions on how issues could be managed, you have a go!
		
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But it's NONE of their business, when that poster doesn't have an issue, and hasn't asked for their help.   This isn't a "barefoot" thread, it's a forum thread - why does this forum seem so obsessed with barefoot?  And that is a question which solicits answers from all sides of the equation - barefooters, unshod, shod, where nobody has a monopoly on what is "best".


eta, my comments above about what constitutes a good discussion mean I'm not going to respond on here any more.  I'm not arguing for argument's sake, I've made my point - which ultimately is about why this forum gives (I think) a skewed perspective on this particular debate.


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## mcnaughty (14 January 2013)

mcnaughty said:



			Why use the emotive word "obsession"?

OP is just trying to start a fight, I suggest we ignore.... bet some people cannot help themselves though!  I've only read page 1, wonder how it is going??
		
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LOL - 16 pages later! ....

I will now put my little oar in - I have two - one shod, one not.  Shod horse is slightly pigeon toed and after leaving to see if she would go barefoot, decided against as her conformation was not permitting it.  The other - welsh a is barefoot - of course!! I mean, who on earth would put shoes on a welsh a!!  Guess which one was walking round on snowy stilts this evening ;-)  Both have their merits - both their faults - no obsession here but lets leave everyone to their own wishes and beliefs and stop these stupid posts that start arguments for the sake of it!!


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## Enfys (14 January 2013)

cptrayes said:



			I think you are not only in the States, but in a part of it which is very favourable to barefoot horses and where MOST horses have no shoes on?

You really aren't in a good position to judge about how much effort can be needed to keep a horse in dank wet UK with severe mineral imbalances in a very high proportion of grazing, with farriers and vets who are taught that shoes are absolutely required for any horse that is in hard work, especially on roads.

I have friends who trained trimming in the US and who live in the US and it's a different world, horsewise!
		
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Wooooooooo, sits back and waits


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## Spring Feather (14 January 2013)

BeesKnees said:



			Is it possible that in this wet, muddy country, with managed pasture designed over the years for milk production, owners have to be more obsessional in order to do what comes easy where you are? 

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Possible.  Except for certain areas over here, most horses are kept on large acreages.  We have a lot more land available so can keep horses in larger pastures.  We would probably have all of the same problems as you have over there (muddy wet pastures) if we kept horses in little 2-3 acre paddocks, most people where I live don't.  However there is another difference where I live in that large farms tend to have underground drainage therefore although we get rain and a heck of a lot of snow each winter, the water can drain away easily and quickly therefore mud is a very short lived thing here for the majority of animals kept on larger farms.  I still see small places with horses in little paddocks and the paddocks look the same as the pictures I see on H&H where some horses are in what could be described as muddy wallows.  Soil structure is global and changes depending on where about in the country you are, so just like some of you have clay soil and some have sandy loam, well we have exactly the same soil structures here too.  We are probably a lot more rocky than you and a lot of land is rugged and barren in many areas (not mine, my area is a big cropland and dairy farm area).  The worked land however is usually stone-picked on most farms.  We have roads made of the same as your roads are, our horses ride on these roads.  We have dry areas and wet areas and all in all the soil in our respective countries isn't any different.


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## Spring Feather (14 January 2013)

Enfys said:



			Wooooooooo, sits back and waits 

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I was good and restrained


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## tallyho! (14 January 2013)

PandorasJar said:



			Prior to this forum I honestly never though about the terms because I simply didn't have shoes on most or one was shod. So I use barefoot and unshod, both simply meaning that they don't have shoes on.
None have different diets and none have anything put on the hoof (my farrier was happy with me putting some things on as would just waste my money, unhappy with some as could do damage) and no hoof boots as they've got hardy feet. No youngsters are yet ridden so if the need arises I will look at different options at the time and the broodies are fine without.
The most important thing to me is getting a good farrier/trimmer who is willing to do the best thing for the horse and happy to direct you but also listen to queries/suggestions you have. With a friends horse whose feet were crumbling shoes were whipped off (told it needed shoes as bad feet) they are now rock solid and look great. Not the case for all but in this one the shoes were causing the crumbly feet, not saving them.

I think it can get very preachy on both sides and think the majority of horses don't need shoes if managed in a certain way, but that way isn't always possible and some horses simply need them. I think they are also invaluable in some remedial work.
		
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Spring Feather said:



			Outwith this forum, neither have I heard about all this palaver with keeping horses unshod and I never ever hear anyone referring to their horse as barefoot.  The only time, and I know I keep harping on about it, any eyebrows are raised where I live is if someone has shoes on their horses feet and everyone automatically thinks there's something wrong with the horse if it has to wear shoes.  I have over 50 horses, none wear shoes (although I certainly would have them shod if I felt it best for the individual horse), none have all these extra special lotions and potions or super-duper feedstuffs   Mine are all on just a good balanced diet with good grazing in the summer and fed a nutrtionally balanced feed and quality hay during the winter months.  Sooo maybe the OP does have a point after all?  Because more and more it really is starting to look like some do have an obsession (on both sides of the divide I hasten to add)
		
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Not everyone has a stud farm or your backgrounds and can say what you have both said. Most people who "obsess" have one or maybe two horses and have never had an unshod horse before.

Could it be that for some it is a new experience? Could it be that learning about feet is a good thing? 

Or will y continue to rub their faces in the fact that they don't have 50 horses, unshod horses is nothing new and you've been doing it for a thousand years and other people are stupid and obsessive. What you both say also comes across as preachy and actually more than just a little patronising forgive me for saying so.

Whether or not barefoot is a palaver, for some small time owners, it has been the saviour of their horse. Put yourself in the shoes of someone less experienced and then start the name-calling.

I think those who keep harping on about how little there is to it, probably are not as experienced as they may think they are.


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## TrasaM (14 January 2013)

mcnaughty said:



			LOL - 16 pages later! ....

  Both have their merits - both their faults - no obsession here but lets leave everyone to their own wishes and beliefs and stop these stupid posts that start arguments for the sake of it!!
		
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Like lots


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## BeesKnees (14 January 2013)

JFTD said:



			But it's NONE of their business, when that poster doesn't have an issue, and hasn't asked for their help.   This isn't a "barefoot" thread, it's a forum thread - why does this forum seem so obsessed with barefoot?  And that is a question which solicits answers from all sides of the equation - barefooters, unshod, shod, where nobody has a monopoly on what is "best".


eta, my comments above about what constitutes a good discussion mean I'm not going to respond on here any more.  I'm not arguing for argument's sake, I've made my point - which ultimately is about why this forum gives (I think) a skewed perspective on this particular debate.
		
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I know you said you weren't going to continue, but I'd like to respond  

None of any of it is anyone else's business. But we choose to join forums and discuss our opinions and experiences which kind of makes it other people's business! 

Surely it isn't that awful to ask questions on a forum is it? If people are that worried about not having to answer them then they don't have to post about their own experience. It isn't just BF threads that elicit such questions and critique even when this hasn't been asked for. 

And lets face it. It isn't just a forum thread is it! in fact many people thought the Op was a troll, precisely because they'd chosen such a controversial topic. As far as I can see (and I am neutral, never had a horse BF) , the anti BF-ers are just as guilty of being critical, judgemental and snarky.


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## Shysmum (14 January 2013)

TBH, is see all this "debating" as quite educational - it's threads like these that I have learnt a lot from. 

And fwiw, if my farrier ever told me Shy needed shoes on, with a very good reason, i would listen to him. I am sure I speak for a lot of barefooters there.


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## Spring Feather (14 January 2013)

Oh Tallyho, you miss my point entirely!   Perhaps I did not explain it well enough, I probably didn't.  I don't care whether people shoe their horses or don't shoe their horses, what I can't understand is all this feeding special barefoot feed (you're right I have NO experience of this barefoot feed ... what is it anyway?) and multiple lotions and potions that sound like they are exclusively for barefooters.   Surely everyone, regardless of whether their horse is unshod or shod feeds an appropriate diet and does what they can to keep their horses body and feet in the best condition?


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## Alyth (14 January 2013)

The thing is it is not special barefoot feed.  It is NOT feeding the high sugar/molassed foods that are currently sold and marketed as being good for horses.......


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## tallyho! (14 January 2013)

Spring Feather said:



			Oh Tallyho, you miss my point entirely!   Perhaps I did not explain it well enough, I probably didn't.  I don't care whether people shoe their horses or don't shoe their horses, what I can't understand is all this feeding special barefoot feed (you're right I have NO experience of this barefoot feed ... what is it anyway?) and multiple lotions and potions that sound like they are exclusively for barefooters.   Surely everyone, regardless of whether their horse is unshod or shod feeds an appropriate diet and does what they can to keep their horses body and feet in the best condition?
		
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Easier said than done I'm afraid to say 

There is no special diet. That is made up by people who have a bone to pick.. It's simply a low sugar forage based diet with little or no grain. How is that fancy or special?

When advice is given about minerals etc, its usually in context as a response to a possible imbalance. 

Lotions and potions are your very simple antibacterial and antifungal to help kill off thrush. How is that fancy or exclusive?

I'm using your words here. Your words that you have chosen to label "obsessive barefooters" with. But that is your prerogative, I know. 

However, your tone is somewhat patronising when you seem so baffled at this new world of barefoot you find yourself in when you have been keeping horses unshod in a very practical way for many years. That is fine. I simply turn green with envy  but you must be able see Spring Feather, that not everyone has been feeding a good diet or has had a horse without thrush as a result. 

Therefore, to those people, it is revolutionary and it IS easy to become "obsessed". 

I fail to see why that is so bad. And I am glad you agree that good diet should be at the heart whether shod or unshod...

The "fancy" feeds are those that come in multi-coloured bags with multi-coloured pellets and squashed vegetables in it!


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## BeesKnees (14 January 2013)

Spring Feather said:



			Oh Tallyho, you miss my point entirely!   Perhaps I did not explain it well enough, I probably didn't.  I don't care whether people shoe their horses or don't shoe their horses, what I can't understand is all this feeding special barefoot feed (you're right I have NO experience of this barefoot feed ... what is it anyway?) and multiple lotions and potions that sound like they are exclusively for barefooters.   Surely everyone, regardless of whether their horse is unshod or shod feeds an appropriate diet and does what they can to keep their horses body and feet in the best condition?
		
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And as I said before, the useful thing then would be to look at what is different for you and your situation, that makes BF straightforward?


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## Spring Feather (14 January 2013)

Alyth said:



			The thing is it is not special barefoot feed.  It is NOT feeding the high sugar/molassed foods that are currently sold and marketed as being good for horses.......
		
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Ah well there you go, I don't feed molassed or high sugar feeds so my horses must be on a 'barefoot diet' then.  Who'da thunk it!


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## Miss L Toe (14 January 2013)

Spring Feather said:



			Oh Tallyho, you miss my point entirely!   Perhaps I did not explain it well enough, I probably didn't.  I don't care whether people shoe their horses or don't shoe their horses, what I can't understand is all this feeding special barefoot feed (you're right I have NO experience of this barefoot feed ... what is it anyway?) and multiple lotions and potions that sound like they are exclusively for barefooters.   Surely everyone, regardless of whether their horse is unshod or shod feeds an appropriate diet and does what they can to keep their horses body and feet in the best condition?
		
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Which lotions and potions are these please, most barefoot horses get a good diet if they need it, and no lotions, as they don't.
I feed micronised linseed which is great for skin, joints, and the digestive process, I also feed minerals, and guess what....  he now has a dark coat colour all year round,  and his skin is no longer itchy. 
The feed has no added molasses, the diet is based on high fibre, oil, and minerals. I would feed this to all horses: shod or not.
I realise that this does not fit with the marketing ethos of feed manufacturers, they want to sell more product, I want to feed less!


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## Jasper99 (14 January 2013)

I have found this thread *very* interesting to say the least. 

I know I started with a bang, posting a very controversial topic, therefore leading lots of people to think I was a troll  

I haven't intentionally tried to spark an argument, but from the huge amounts of debate I have learnt a great deal, so thank you HHO'ers!


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## Spring Feather (14 January 2013)

BeesKnees said:



			And as I said before, the useful thing then would be to look at what is different for you and your situation, that makes BF straightforward?
		
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Yes it's interesting and I don't have the answer however one thing I'm considering right now in light of this conversation; how about genetics?  Because shoeing horses is not desirable where I live, could it be that a greater proportion of the horses who can't cope without shoes are maybe not bred from or wind up at the slaughter house?


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## Miss L Toe (14 January 2013)

Jasper99 said:



			Hi everyone, I'm new *waves* 

Now before you start, I'm *not* a troll, I have been lurking for a long time and I wanted to join purely to ask the question : 

Why is there such an obsession with going barefoot? 

Please don't kill me 

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Why is there an obsession with shoeing horses when it may be unnecessary,  have long term disadvantages, short term inconvenience and added costs?
Disadvantages of shoeing:
Needs to be done regularly by a skilled farrier.
Torn off shoes can cause injury and/prevent use of the animal.
Kicking may cause serious injury to others horses and personel.
The foot adapts to the shoe and not in a good way, the foot is designed to use the frog and other parts of the hoof, shoeing blocks this.
Advantages of barefoot horses:
There is evidence that certain serious conditions are relieved by removing the shoes and not by nailing on heartbars or other devices.
It is much safer to ride on roads without shoes as the grip is better.
The unshod horse is not exposed to excessive concussive forces.

In my experience, there are many horses which are not shod  often enough, and many unshod horses in fields which are not trimmed often enough.


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## tallyho! (14 January 2013)

Spring Feather said:



			Yes it's interesting and I don't have the answer however one thing I'm considering right now in light of this conversation; how about genetics?  Because shoeing horses is not desirable where I live, could it be that a greater proportion of the horses who can't cope without shoes are maybe not bred from or wind up at the slaughter house?
		
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There has been debates previously about genetics and it is an interesting one. I found out from HHO that actually the Connemaras do have genetic predisposition to certain foot pathology.

However, the majority of any genetics debate keeps getting disproved as horses of breeds that have "notoriously" bad feet such as tbs and shires for example seem to do very well given the chance to eat the "special barefoot diet"  I kinda like the irony now...


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## Oberon (14 January 2013)

Spring Feather said:



			Oh Tallyho, you miss my point entirely!   Perhaps I did not explain it well enough, I probably didn't.  I don't care whether people shoe their horses or don't shoe their horses, what I can't understand is all this feeding special barefoot feed (you're right I have NO experience of this barefoot feed ... what is it anyway?) and multiple lotions and potions that sound like they are exclusively for barefooters.   Surely everyone, regardless of whether their horse is unshod or shod feeds an appropriate diet and does what they can to keep their horses body and feet in the best condition?
		
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I feed Fast Fibre, Speedibeet, linseed and Pro Balance + (and copra for the old boy).

No lotions or potions (save a tub of Red Horse Field Paste in the tack room).

I don't understand what is complicated about my regime?

I've used HappyHoof, D&H Meadowsweet, D&H 16+, Allen and Page's Old Faithful, Simple System feeds.......over the years.

But I couldn't continue to put my faith in the feed companies any more at the cost of my horse's health.

My horses have never looked better than when I scaled it all down to basic fibre, linseed and a decent mineral balancer that tallys with what is funky about my grazing/forage.

When people say, "I feed a balanced diet".....Are they really? Balanced to what? 
How do we know what is balanced unless we know what is unbalanced with the bulk of the horse's diet (the forage)?

The issue surrounding barefoot horses and diet is that many barefoot horses simply won't tolerate any dietary snafoos on our part. If we get it wrong (and I've made pretty much every mistake there is to make over the years ) - the hooves will tell us we've got it wrong. 

A lot of owners who pm me looking for dietary suggestions are wasting lots of cash, duplicating feeds by trying to ensure their horses are covered for everything - and they end up with an unhealthy horse at the end of it. Most of the time it's about trying to get the owner to scale it all down.

I suspect with 50 horses though - you are already at this stage and feeding sensibly. That's probably why you are so mystified what all the fuss is about


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## Oberon (14 January 2013)

Jasper99 said:



			I have found this thread *very* interesting to say the least. 

I know I started with a bang, posting a very controversial topic, therefore leading lots of people to think I was a troll  

I haven't intentionally tried to spark an argument, but from the huge amounts of debate I have learnt a great deal, so thank you HHO'ers!
		
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You will find that any barefoot thread eventually turns into a bun fight 

It's usually Tallyho's fault


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## amandap (14 January 2013)

Spring Feather, are most of the horses in your area never shod? I am wondering if shoeing from young age and back to back (with no or few breaks) shoeing is a factor here in UK. Many people have problems when they remove shoes and hooves are underdeveloped, contracted, thrushy etc. Here, shoes are sometimes removed as a last resort after continuing problems of various sorts from constantly losing shoes to navicular. 
The norm here seems to be shoeing if in work but I think this is changing. It will be interesting to see what happens as more horses never shod become more common.


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## BeesKnees (14 January 2013)

Jasper99 said:



			I have found this thread *very* interesting to say the least. 

I know I started with a bang, posting a very controversial topic, therefore leading lots of people to think I was a troll  

I haven't intentionally tried to spark an argument, but from the huge amounts of debate I have learnt a great deal, so thank you HHO'ers!
		
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It's usually the way. Lots of strong opinions, but lots of great stuff in between the rowing


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## Miss L Toe (14 January 2013)

mandwhy said:



			If my horse could work without shoes then I wouldn't bother shoeing her, why would I shoes are expensive and not wearing shoes is not a new concept. To be honest although I am interested in hoof health etc, we have a lot of gravel/hardcore tracks here and I expect most horses would struggle, I struggle in my wellies! So she has shoes on all 4 currently although may try with backs off.*

Each to their own, I just find it amazing how much effort people put in, feeding endless hay all year as the grass is all wrong and supplements and 'barefoot trimmers', oh and hoof boots!
		
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Not withstanding your own tracks, what is wrong with feeding a high fibre forage [hay] all year round rather than lush Rygrass, which is notorious for sugars and is bad for laminitis. I don't see a problem , if that is what people think is better for their horse.
Boots, yes some people use boots, what is wrong with that? 
If they want make a bit of effort to run things the way they think is better, I can t see a problem.
If you want to keep horses you are going have to make a bit of an effort to look after them, or pay someone to do it it for you. I realise there may be people who only ride their horses, dont groom them, dont check water, feed, feet, teeth, jabs and so on, but they are in the minority.
PS if your current wellies are not up to walking on stoney tracks, I think you need to buy some decent ones, these ones sound as though they are thin soled [get it?]


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## tallyho! (14 January 2013)

Oberon said:



			You will find that any barefoot thread eventually turns into a bun fight 

It's usually Tallyho's fault 
	
	
		
		
	


	




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I try...


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## Spring Feather (14 January 2013)

amandap said:



			Spring Feather, are most of the horses in your area never shod? I am wondering if shoeing from young age and back to back (with no or few breaks) shoeing is a factor here in UK. Many people have problems when they remove shoes and hooves are underdeveloped, contracted, thrushy etc. Here, shoes are sometimes removed as a last resort after continuing problems of various sorts from constantly losing shoes to navicular. 
The norm here seems to be shoeing if in work but I think this is changing. It will be interesting to see what happens as more horses never shod become more common.
		
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Another great point amandap!  No, most horses in my area never are shod.  Not as little 3 or 4 year olds just starting out under ridden work and not as oldies.  Most have never seen a set of horse shoes in their lives so you certainly could be onto something there.  I have my farrier come and trim my horses regularly but some others in the area don't have a farrier do their horses feet as regularly.  It doesn't seem to make much difference to be honest.  I like tidy feet and I notice feet so when I see other horses who aren't done as often I see that they just seem to go through a period where the feet chip for a few weeks and then the next time I'll see them the feet look nice and rounded and smooth again.  It's all breeds of horses as well; TBs, standardbreds, Arabs, QHs, WBs, the lot.


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## Oberon (14 January 2013)

tallyho! said:










I try...
		
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## Spring Feather (14 January 2013)

Oberon, a terrific post!  And maybe you have hit the nail on the head with me.  I'm not a one or two horse owner (that was part of the reason for me mentioning how many I had) so I don't get drawn into all these feed companies literature.  I've been feeding the same feed for years.  I don't overfeed hardfeed either, which perhaps I could be guilty of if I didn't have so many horses to feed?  I stick with the mix I make up myself and it seems to work.  I did do a fair amount of research when I first started feeding this but since then I haven't because there's no point.  I don't feed hardfeed in the summer, only in the winter (except for the broodmares, foals and oldies).  I wonder if I had only 2 horses would I get sucked in with the hardfeed business or would I keep my horses differently.  I don't think so as I like them living out 24/7 and there would be little point for changing the way I kept one or two to how I keep the herds.  And you're most probably right, this is exactly why I don't understand the fuss, sorry


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## Oberon (14 January 2013)

amandap said:



			Spring Feather, are most of the horses in your area never shod? I am wondering if shoeing from young age and back to back (with no or few breaks) shoeing is a factor here in UK. Many people have problems when they remove shoes and hooves are underdeveloped, contracted, thrushy etc. Here, shoes are sometimes removed as a last resort after continuing problems of various sorts from constantly losing shoes to navicular. 
The norm here seems to be shoeing if in work but I think this is changing. It will be interesting to see what happens as more horses never shod become more common.
		
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Pete Ramey goes even further back than this.

He believes that when we neglect to trim foals early enough, restrict them to the stable or keep them on soft ground only, the caudal hoof development stops.

The digital cushions (pink) remain flabby and never develops into firm micro-cartilage. The lateral cartilages (grey) remain weak.







So the foal gets used to keeping the load off this weak area at the back of the hoof and thus it falls further out of function.

We get to the horse being broken in - usually in the spring when the grass is at it's sweetest for our couch potato youngster who has never seen rocks/hard going .

The horse manages OK for backing.

We turn them away to mature and stuff their faces in that lovely, green and soft field...... 

But when we come to bring them back into proper work and start hacking out etc - those poorly developed hooves with flabby internal structures that have not been conditioned to work on hard ground......suddenly don't cope .

We call the farrier and get the horse shod.

Thus the frog and heels are totally out of the equation when it comes to loading and the digital cushions and lateral cartilages now receive very little stimulation at all......







We have horses dying of old age with the internal foot development of a foal.

I know this is true of my old boy. Despite years barefoot with all the 'best' I can give him - he still refuses to load heel first.....he's just too weak there and has never worked hard enough to remedy that .


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## Gloi (14 January 2013)

Just as an example I'll give you the story of my lad. I've had him for 20 years and for most of that time accepted the farrier's observation that he had rubbish feet. They were slow growing with soft, thin walls and a tendency towards contraction. He also wore his shoes very unevenly due to slight knock knees, toe out conformation of his front legs.
I spent years feeding him every hoof supplement in the sun, and every paint on lotion I could find trying to improve them to no avail.
I had him shod in the spring and rode him through the summer his feet becoming more broken with each set as they would split at the nail holes. When, usually in the autumn , the farrier could no longer find any hoof wall left to attach shoes to he would be left turned out without shoes until he grew some new wall.
He wasn't sound to ride without shoes at this stage and I tried some of the primitive hoof boots that existed then but they didn't fit well and came off all the time so I used to just leave him turned away for a good part of the winter.
About 3 years ago I did some reading about barefoot horses and spent a few months with a set of boots trying to make it work for him but the boots were wrong for him and without them his feet wore very unevenly so eventually I had him shod again.
After his feet yet again broke up I tried again and this time I have put real time and effort into getting everything right and a year and a bit later he has tough feet that are coping well with his work.


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## Shysmum (14 January 2013)

^^^ I wish I had had the knowledge to do this with my last horse.


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## cptrayes (14 January 2013)

JFTD said:



			Actually, in my opinion, for a discussion to be "good" both parties have to be prepared to consider the other's opinion, and you appear so convinced of the research you quote, and so entrenched in your own opinion that shoes are evil, that you will not consider any other perspective.  And thus, yes I do believe you are preaching.  

Threads like these, where you (and others, on both sides of the argument) pick holes in other people's choices (the implication of your previous post that another poster shoes her horse because she didn't bother to rehab it) don't, in my opinion, do your cause any favours.  Solicited advice is one thing.  Advice to put shoes on a lame horse is one thing (though you may not agree with it).  Unsolicited "advice" about why barefoot didn't work for another poster is just unnecessary.
		
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I do not agree with your definition of good debate. In many debates there is a right and a wrong. In my opinion putting shoes back on a horse before giving it an optimum diet and exercise regime does not prove that horse needed shoes and no one will ever convince me that it does. I have always accepted that some owners need to shoe but I do not accept that the horses needed shoes if the owner was lucky enough to be in a situation to provide and optimum environment. 

I do not care if you perceive what I do as preaching as long as I continue to receive PMs like this from people who perceive what I write as helpful:




			So if you ever get fed up saying the same stuff or listening to the same arguments please try to remember there might be other folk than those arguing for arguings sake and feeling the indescribable relief of a really poorly horse improving when there seemed no hope who really appreciate the time you take to advise and support
		
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I am aware of a mini,um of 4 horses which are in full work today, three of which would have been dead, because of the kind of information I supply on threads like these. Whilst that situation continues I will continue to post as I do whether you like the way I do it or not.


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## cptrayes (14 January 2013)

Jasper99 said:



			I have found this thread *very* interesting to say the least. 

I know I started with a bang, posting a very controversial topic, therefore leading lots of people to think I was a troll  

I haven't intentionally tried to spark an argument, but from the huge amounts of debate I have learnt a great deal, so thank you HHO'ers!
		
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Brilliant!  Really pleased it helped.


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## amandap (14 January 2013)

I suspected your horses had never seen shoes Spring Feather.



Oberon said:



			Pete Ramey goes even further back than this.

He believes that when we neglect to trim foals early enough, restrict them to the stable or keep them on soft ground only, the caudal hoof development stops.







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Yes, we do restrict their movement so often and put them on 'safe' bowling green fields. The better bred the more 'safe' it seems it needs to be. It's the stimulation of frog that stimulates the digital cushion and bending, twisting on uneven ground that helps to strengthen the lateral cartilages.

That photo always makes my eyes pop out of my head. The depth of the split between the heel bulbs is unreal.


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## weebarney (14 January 2013)

Oberon said:



			I feed Fast Fibre, Speedibeet, linseed and Pro Balance + (and copra for the old boy).

No lotions or potions (save a tub of Red Horse Field Paste in the tack room).

I don't understand what is complicated about my regime?

I've used HappyHoof, D&H Meadowsweet, D&H 16+, Allen and Page's Old Faithful, Simple System feeds.......over the years.

But I couldn't continue to put my faith in the feed companies any more at the cost of my horse's health.

My horses have never looked better than when I scaled it all down to basic fibre, linseed and a decent mineral balancer that tallys with what is funky about my grazing/forage.

When people say, "I feed a balanced diet".....Are they really? Balanced to what? 
How do we know what is balanced unless we know what is unbalanced with the bulk of the horse's diet (the forage)?
		
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Is that the cool stance copra? been googling what it is as never heard of it. Ive got a post in veterinary about my old pony who has lost his mojo and wondered if it might help.


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## Oberon (14 January 2013)

weebarney said:



			Is that the cool stance copra? been googling what it is as never heard of it. Ive got a post in veterinary about my old pony who has lost his mojo and wondered if it might help.
		
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Yes, that's it.

Obi is 26, has dodgy teeth and Cushings (so I have to keep the sugar down).

He refuses to wear a turnout rug - so can be exposed to rough weather if he gets caught out in it before I can get there to bring him back in.

It seems I blinked and dropped the ball last month and he suddenly looked poor 

I added a second feed a day of the Fast Fibre, Speedibeet, linseed and Pro Balance + and added 1000iu Vitamin E.

I started feeding copra with warm water in the pm and added some to his am feeds.

He also gets a scoop of Spiller's High Fibre cubes in the am (in a separate bucket as he won't eat it wet ).

I also added Protexin and UL30REX to boost his gut function.

I kept him out of all weather too.

This was before on the 16/12/12







and two week's later on 24/12/12







Before







After


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## weebarney (14 January 2013)

Oberon said:



			Yes, that's it.

Obi is 26, has dodgy teeth and Cushings (so I have to keep the sugar down).

He refuses to wear a turnout rug - so can be exposed to rough weather if he gets caught out in it before I can get there to bring him back in.

It seems I blinked and dropped the ball last month and he suddenly looked poor 

I added a second feed a day of the Fast Fibre, Speedibeet, linseed and Pro Balance + and added 1000iu Vitamin E.

I started feeding copra with warm water in the pm and added some to his am feeds.

He also gets a scoop of Spiller's High Fibre cubes in the am (in a separate bucket as he won't eat it wet ).

I also added Protexin and UL30REX to boost his gut function.

I kept him out of all weather too.
		
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ditto, 27 yo cushings, teeth missing, refuses to walk with a rug on but does have lots of fur.Is yours on prascend too? I didnt know if this was giving my oldie a low mood. He is getting ad lib haylage, speedibeet, linseed, probalanceand salt once a day though, maybe i need to start twice a day.


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## Oberon (14 January 2013)

Yes, he's on 2.5 mg a day. Last ACTH was 97......which is actually good for him


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## dafthoss (14 January 2013)

Any thread is made better with obi pictures  

I'm not obsessed, mine is barefoot, has never had a set on in his life. I do occsionally post on threads where people are considering it but not sure how it will affect them competing, as we do compete a fair bit in most things without a problem.


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## MerrySherryRider (14 January 2013)

TwoStroke said:



			All barefooters would try to resolve the CAUSE. Shoeing is not resolving the cause, it is masking the symptom.
		
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Glad you realise that. Sadly, others do not . Didn't mention shoeing. read what I say instead of attributing your own prejudice to me. 



cptrayes said:



			The problem I have with this statement of yours Horserider, is that it shows that you are completely unaware how lucky you are to live in an area where your grazing and the grass cut for your forage are already well balanced. 



Your luck in where your horses live allows you to faff less than some other people do to keep their horses barefoot, and yet you mock them for it. Nice, eh?
		
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Which area would that be then ? All eight counties ?

Very lucky to have hit the only areas with perfectly balanced grazing.

Maybe its the type of horse, I'm lucky with ? The cobs, the DWB X TB, ISH X TB, Appaloosa X cob, Hanoverian X TB and TB's.

Yes, must be very lucky. 

I wouldn't use the word mocking, you do. My response to the question posed by the OP, is that yes, There is a trend for barefoot lifestyle devotees to obsess judging by the constant flurry of posts on HHO, but others manage silently without fuss, micro management and buying into the sales pitch.

You don't have to be an all dancing, all singing Barefoot member to ride a horse without shoes.


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## Tiffany (15 January 2013)

Oberon said:



			You will find that any barefoot thread eventually turns into a bun fight 

It's usually Tallyho's fault 
	
	
		
		
	


	




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LOL


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## maccachic (15 January 2013)

My definition:

Barefoot - horses doesn't wear shoes
Unshod - horse is having a break from shoes but they will go back on.

It normal in NZ for horses to be turned out without shoes I don't know of anyone who turns out a horse shod.

There are more and more BF horses starting to get out and about.

I don't think I could trot on a tar-sealed road with shoes on these days, would feel safe and couldn't do it to my horse have you tried putting some on you feet and going for a run on seal?

Have two Bf a Standbred and a Throughbred, standardbred feet are the same year round, throughbred has metabolic sensitivities (think from previous ulcers) so get event lines and has long standing issues which are slowly being resolved.

Stb requires only chaff and minerals to maintain health, TB requires oats chaff and minerals, along with grass / hay.

TB does SJ, eventing, endurance, hunting, trekking and dressage no problems.

Stb is a part time horse for my partner but has SJ and enduranced and trekked happily.


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## Oberon (15 January 2013)

dafthoss said:



			Any thread is made better with obi pictures  .
		
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Of course


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## Alyth (15 January 2013)

Oberon said:



			Pete Ramey goes even further back than this.

He believes that when we neglect to trim foals early enough, restrict them to the stable or keep them on soft ground only, the caudal hoof development stops.

The digital cushions (pink) remain flabby and never develops into firm micro-cartilage. The lateral cartilages (grey) remain weak.







So the foal gets used to keeping the load off this weak area at the back of the hoof and thus it falls further out of function.

We get to the horse being broken in - usually in the spring when the grass is at it's sweetest for our couch potato youngster who has never seen rocks/hard going .

The horse manages OK for backing.

We turn them away to mature and stuff their faces in that lovely, green and soft field...... 

But when we come to bring them back into proper work and start hacking out etc - those poorly developed hooves with flabby internal structures that have not been conditioned to work on hard ground......suddenly don't cope .

We call the farrier and get the horse shod.

Thus the frog and heels are totally out of the equation when it comes to loading and the digital cushions and lateral cartilages now receive very little stimulation at all......







We have horses dying of old age with the internal foot development of a foal.

I know this is true of my old boy. Despite years barefoot with all the 'best' I can give him - he still refuses to load heel first.....he's just too weak there and has never worked hard enough to remedy that .
		
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Apart from the shoe and high heels what is that crack between the bulbs and up towards the fetlock?  How can that be treated?  Would lowering the heels help it heal?


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## Alyth (15 January 2013)

cptrayes said:



			How do you want me to word it? I'm trying to express the fact that I am not obessive about whether her horse wears shoes or not.


Yes, it matters, there is more research coming out that many horses are actively damaged by shoes. The last peice I saw had a significant measurable reduction in size of the foot at the coronet band after only a few weeks. If it turns out to be the case that shoes actively damage, then the fewer which wear them, for the least possible time, is surely the way to go?

And therefore it is important that we find out which horses can and can't go without shoes and WHY. Putting shoes on a footie horse without exploring whether anything can be done to keep that horse shoe free, although it may be the only thing that particular owner can do, does not help an  owner who is trying to avoid doing that.

So if an owner posts on a thread "my horse could not do it", I personally like to know what else was tried before re-shoeing,  so that I can add it to the databank of advice that I would give to other people, some of whom, yes shock horror  , I advise to shoe.
		
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In a previous thread you pulled me up when I said all horses should be able to go barefoot, so that i don't derail this thread I am going to start a new one.  I would appreciate your input!!  Thanks.


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## tallyho! (15 January 2013)

Alyth said:



			Apart from the shoe and high heels what is that crack between the bulbs and up towards the fetlock?  How can that be treated?  Would lowering the heels help it heal?
		
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That crack probably did not start that way but a thrush infection that has become increasingly deep seated.

Lowering the heels would only change the angle the coffin bone sits but will probably cause lameness as the change will pull on weak tendons and ligaments. Possibly even causing more lameness as the hoof wall is actually contracted around all the inner structures - squashing it all. It would not get rid of the infection either as the shoes will still clamp the heel bulbs together as you see it now.

The only way to remedy the contraction, is to remove the clamp, and rehabilitate the caudal hoof structure very gradually and treat the infection as the cleft "unfolds".

Basically, that hoof needs a break from shoes. Desperately.

Here, you can see a contracted heel "unfold"... not as severe as the photo you saw. P.S. took 5 months.


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## cptrayes (15 January 2013)

horserider said:



			Which area would that be then ? All eight counties ?
		
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Have you had hardworking barefoot horses in eight counties? And never had one that went footie?

In that case, yes, I would say that you were very lucky indeed. I couldn't do every horse I have done here without mineral balancing and I know a lot of other people in the same boat.





			You don't have to be an all dancing, all singing Barefoot member to ride a horse without shoes.
		
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My suspicion is that you do if you have multiple hores and you never had to resort to shoes with any horse unless it is to stud them.

I'm a very proud member, two horses would be dead and another pensioned off at 8 now if I hadn't learnt to sing and dance


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## cptrayes (15 January 2013)

Alyth said:



			In a previous thread you pulled me up when I said all horses should be able to go barefoot, so that i don't derail this thread I am going to start a new one.  I would appreciate your input!!  Thanks.
		
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I don't see a conflict Alyth. There are some horses that either cannot or should not go without shoes, in my view. Buy in my view also, the cannots are very few and almost certainly have metabolic diseases. Se you on the other thread


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## amandap (15 January 2013)

Alyth said:



			Apart from the shoe and high heels what is that crack between the bulbs and up towards the fetlock?  How can that be treated?  Would lowering the heels help it heal?
		
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I think it's due to severe contraction and probable infection getting in. My belief is the only way to treat it is to remove shoes, probably trim the excessively long walls very sympathetically, treat infection and allow the hoof to decontract and get stronger through comfortable movement and work.


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## FfionWinnie (15 January 2013)

Spring Feather said:



			Ah well there you go, I don't feed molassed or high sugar feeds so my horses must be on a 'barefoot diet' then.  Who'da thunk it!
		
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I think that's the point. It seems complicated but actually its not.  None of mine are shod either and only one gets any food at all except hay and that's because she is in hard work, clipped and living out 24/7. It did seem quite complex before I started it (previous to these ones I have always shod everything because that's what we did!) but actually its dead easy. Fast fibre, speedibeet and micronised linseed. They already had mineral licks. It's a less fancy diet than I fed my previous horses, and I have absolutely no lotions or potions!


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## Spyda (15 January 2013)

Jasper99 said:



			Hi everyone, I'm new *waves* 

Now before you start, I'm *not* a troll, I have been lurking for a long time and I wanted to join purely to ask the question : 

Why is there such an obsession with going barefoot? 

Please don't kill me 

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Ultimately? Because it's cheaper! Unfortunately I can't get away without front shoes (mare is remedially shod for severe bench knee conformation) but I don't shoe behind. And my mare is a big heavy WBxTB with less than wonderful hoof conformation and still manages fine with up to 25 miles per week of hilly 100% road work. I'm a lot happier paying £42 every 5 weeks to the farrier than £75 for a full set of shoes. It's win-win all round


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## jinglejoys (15 January 2013)

Never had a shod mule so why start (Ever been kicked by a mule?Believe me you don't want shoes on one that does Lol)


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## MerrySherryRider (15 January 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Have you had hardworking barefoot horses in eight counties? And never had one that went footie?Yes, over the years, I have liveried horses over 8 counties and in a greater number of yards and farms. Yes, I have had to deal with horses' feeling footie, but its not rocket science, reduce the time at grass during peak hours and work them  steadily on a soft surface to increase fitness/metabolism and balance calorie input/output. Pretty basic stuff.

In that case, yes, I would say that you were very lucky indeed. I couldn't do every horse I have done here without mineral balancing and I know a lot of other people in the same boat.

Never heard of mineral balancing with homemade concoctions until I heard about it on here. Still not sure how it works if horses rotate between different pasture through the year and graze during extremes of wet and dry weather.




My suspicion is that you do if you have multiple hores and you never had to resort to shoes with any horse unless it is to stud them.

Yes, I have had shod horses when they needed to be shod, but never as a permanent measure and always for a specific reason. I prefer them unshod and the last shod horse I had,a 13 year old  BSJA mare came to me with lameness issues, received excellent remedial farriery until she came to the point where she could loose the shoes and her feet were so strong that she trotted over a stony yard the next day as though she had been metal free all her life. 

I'm a very proud member, two horses would be dead and another pensioned off at 8 now if I hadn't learnt to sing and dance 
I'm glad your horses have done so well under your care and I respect your commitment. My experience has been different to yours, perhaps my luck has been that my horses came to me as youngsters with good conformation apart from the aforementioned older mare, but even she has excellent feet, she was just unlucky in that her previous owners saw her as a jumping machine and neglected to repay her with good care.

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I accept that some owners shoe without thinking, but some of the extreme and intolerant posts from barefooters have been  difficult to swallow. 

I recall a post some time ago, from someone with 5 horses, who worked full time and competed 3 of them. Desperately worried about one of them and looking for help, she was given advice that would have taken her so long each evening, in the dark, that it would have been at the expense of her other horses. She wanted to comply but it was unrealistic and instead of the barefooters moderating their plan, she was rudely and aggressively told that she shouldn't have 5 horses if she couldn't care for them and should get rid of them. Helpful ? Nope. Demoralising and unkind ? Yep.

I doubt I could find that post, but it was typical during that period of the incredibly aggressive, holier than thou attitude of the BF, thankfully, the tone has become generally more reasonable in  recent times, but it was due to my shock and sense of injustice at the treatment of a caring and desperate poster that prompted me to challenge such extremist views.


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## cptrayes (15 January 2013)

horserider said:



			I doubt I could find that post, but it was typical during that period of the incredibly aggressive, holier than thou attitude of the BF, thankfully, the tone has become generally more reasonable in  recent times, but it was due to my shock and sense of injustice at the treatment of a caring and desperate poster that prompted me to challenge such extremist views.
		
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Was that me? NOPE

I have always accepted that some horses need shoes and I'm at a loss to understand why you seem to word your posts to me as if I am aggressively telling people that they don't need to shoe their horses.


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## cptrayes (15 January 2013)

Yes, over the years, I have liveried horses over 8 counties and in a greater number of yards and farms. Yes, I have had to deal with horses' feeling footie, but its not rocket science, reduce the time at grass during peak hours and work them steadily on a soft surface to increase fitness/metabolism and balance calorie input/output. Pretty basic stuff.
		
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So you dealt with footieness by restricting grass, increasing the work and avoiding difficult surfaces. It's a strategy which works, but why do you call it "faffing about" (which I don't read as a compliment  ) when we adjust mineral balances and keep the ability to work on difficult surfaces at the same level of fitness instead?   





			Never heard of mineral balancing with homemade concoctions until I heard about it on here. Still not sure how it works if horses rotate between different pasture through the year and graze during extremes of wet and dry weather.
		
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The first I heard of it was from a co-founder of the UKNHCP who discovered that her land was heavily contaminated with manganese. It has been a total eye-opener for many of us who have had some of the more sensitive horses. I consider the understanding of the sensitivity of some horses to mineral balance to be one of the greatest breakthroughs that the barefoot movement has made.

I can tell you how  "over"-dosing copper for iron and manganese overload works if you are interested.


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## MerrySherryRider (15 January 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Was that me? NOPE

I have always accepted that some horses need shoes and I'm at a loss to understand why you seem to word your posts to me as if I am aggressively telling people that they don't need to shoe their horses.
		
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I'm sorry. 
I don't actually think that all at. I think these days you are not all aggressive and your posts are reasonable and thoughtful.
 However, you are intelligent and well able to debate and perhaps that's why I tend to pick up on your posts. You must have missed the posts where I've agreed with you.

 Take it as a slightly annoying compliment, the more uninformed and intolerant BF posters aren't worth commenting on.


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## cptrayes (15 January 2013)

horserider said:



			I'm sorry. 
I don't actually think that all at. I think these days you are not all aggressive and your posts are reasonable and thoughtful.
 However, you are intelligent and well able to debate and perhaps that's why I tend to pick up on your posts. You must have missed the posts where I've agreed with you.

 Take it as a slightly annoying compliment, the more uninformed and intolerant BF posters aren't worth commenting on.
		
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Ta, you've made me smile now


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## MerrySherryRider (15 January 2013)

That's a first for me then. 

Normal play will resume tomorrow.


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## tallyho! (15 January 2013)

horserider said:



			I accept that some owners shoe without thinking, but some of the extreme and intolerant posts from barefooters have been  difficult to swallow. 

I recall a post some time ago, from someone with 5 horses, who worked full time and competed 3 of them. Desperately worried about one of them and looking for help, she was given advice that would have taken her so long each evening, in the dark, that it would have been at the expense of her other horses. She wanted to comply but it was unrealistic and instead of the barefooters moderating their plan, she was rudely and aggressively told that she shouldn't have 5 horses if she couldn't care for them and should get rid of them. Helpful ? Nope. Demoralising and unkind ? Yep.

I doubt I could find that post, but it was typical during that period of the incredibly aggressive, holier than thou attitude of the BF, thankfully, the tone has become generally more reasonable in  recent times, but it was due to my shock and sense of injustice at the treatment of a caring and desperate poster that prompted me to challenge such extremist views.
		
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I can't quote what you wrote in blue in reply to cpt, however I just wanted to say that the way you word your posts, usually in disgust to some barefooters makes you seem extremist in your views too.

Just because you have had experience with lots of horses, with good conformation, good pasture, good management and not had to "faff" does not mean that it is automatically the case for everyone... And that those who have not had your experience in life and have had to "faff" are beneath you. 

I don't remember the post you are talking about but as far as I have known the barefooters on here, they have always been more than helpful and sympathetic. 

You have never shared any of your experiences as far as I can remember, and from the discourse we have exchanged in the past, you have only criticised. Why does that make you less extremist than anyone else? 

There are a few on here with unshod horses working well yet they do not share anything, the only comments have been negative ones about barefoot.

There are two sides to this debate when it comes to the extremes. Just thought I'd say


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## Mongoose11 (15 January 2013)

To be honest I am unsure why 'the days of the aggressive Barefoot Movement' keep getting mentioned over and over again. The BT don't operate in that way now (if they ever did.... it may well have been down to interpretation and level of emotional involvement) so I am not sure why it gets harped on about over and over. Perhaps it is time to move on? If your defense has to call upon actions of the distant past then it probably isn't a notable defense


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## tallyho! (15 January 2013)

Quite true billie blitzen and I do think the emotionally charged ones (guilty as charged) did come across that way... from both sides. Really my bone of contention was always the aggressive and incessant name-calling (not necessarily towards me but the bft in general) but agree that bygones should be bygones so I will now shut up and go away


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## Oberon (15 January 2013)

WARNING - POSTING WHILE A BIT TIPSY.....

I agree with horserider that barefoot people can come across as holier than thou sometimes. Not so much on here - but across the internet as a whole.

I am a member of a few Yahoo groups and one in particular has a barefoot focus (mainly US based). I was recently treated to a lovely lecture about the evils of stabling my horses at all and other aspects of my husbandry when I asked a question about pea gravel. I was made to feel belittled and it made me rather angry to be spoken to so.....my response was that in the absence of 20 acres of my own land, I have to use a livery yard and that means making compromises.......

You find a lot of new barefooters can be very excited by the concept and thus evangelical.
But when you've been around long enough - you get a broader perspective on what can and cannot be done....and sometimes shoes are just the best option all round.

I personally don't have an emotional investment in people shoeing their horse or not, but I would beg owners to stop blaming the horse, the weather or genetics for all hoof related problems and look at the feed, the management and the shoes before giving up and accepting unhealthy hooves. 
Challenge any professionals who blame the horse, the weather or genetics when faced with sick hooves and offer no other alternatives.

I would wish for people to please keep the hooves as healthy as possible - shod or not.

We should NOT still be losing young horses to behavioural problems, tendon/ligament problems, joint problems, back problems, navicular, laminitis etc etc in this country. We have the best trained farriers in the world and we have everything at our disposal - so WHY is this still happening? 

Hoof problems don't just affect the hooves....the whole body is under attack when the foundation is broken.

And the answer to this is always heartbars or Imprints 

It breaks my heart that we are losing horses needlessly. Often by the time an owner posts on here in desperation - it's too little, too late and the damage to the horse from years of poor hooves is catastrophic 

Prevention is better than cure.


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## Queenbee (15 January 2013)

tallyho! said:



			That crack probably did not start that way but a thrush infection that has become increasingly deep seated.

Lowering the heels would only change the angle the coffin bone sits but will probably cause lameness as the change will pull on weak tendons and ligaments. Possibly even causing more lameness as the hoof wall is actually contracted around all the inner structures - squashing it all. It would not get rid of the infection either as the shoes will still clamp the heel bulbs together as you see it now.

The only way to remedy the contraction, is to remove the clamp, and rehabilitate the caudal hoof structure very gradually and treat the infection as the cleft "unfolds".

Basically, that hoof needs a break from shoes. Desperately.

Here, you can see a contracted heel "unfold"... not as severe as the photo you saw. P.S. took 5 months.






Click to expand...


Really useful to see the timeline and progress in photos, wasn't there a photo on here the other day from a poster who's horse had amazingly contracted heels?


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## tallyho! (15 January 2013)

Queenbee said:



			Really useful to see the timeline and progress in photos, wasn't there a photo on here the other day from a poster who's horse had amazingly contracted heels?
		
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Yes, Kat I think it was. She asked about heartbars.


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## debsg (15 January 2013)

Charley657 said:



			So you don't ride or handle your horses at all and they are free to roam just like they would in the wild too?

I don't think its necessary if horses are not in work or in light work with no roads.  But I do personally think its a fashion thing at the moment, that and shoes are expensive and people want to save money.
		
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Haven't read all the replies, just wanted to say that I have three horses, 
(1 cob, 1 TB, 1 PBA), all living out (cos they're happier, not cos it's cheaper  )
and all barefoot (cos they all have good feet and don't need shoes)
All three are in work, hack at least three times a week (on the roads! And on flinty tracks, tarmac with stone chippings on top, cindery type surfaces) and are 100% sound all year round (ok, so I'm very lucky  )
In the summer we hack out for the day, 7+ hours and I also do endurance with the PBA, and
numerous disciplines with the other two, including jumping and x country at 1.05m with the cob (no studs!)
I couldn't give a toss about 'fashion' ( I'm 53 FFS!) am lucky enough to have an exceptional farrier who does a stunning barefoot trim and charges £25 per horse.
As for 'saving money' - why would anyone wish to spend unnecessarily? I work full time to support my horses and they get everything they need - but they certainly have no 'need' for shoes!


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## cptrayes (15 January 2013)

Oberon said:



			WARNING - POSTING WHILE A BIT TIPSY.....
		
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SezOberon it was FIVE SIXTEEN when you posted - tipsy???? 


And you a healthcare professional working for the pohlease too


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## tallyho! (15 January 2013)

tallyho! said:



			Yes, Kat I think it was. She asked about heartbars.
		
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Oh what am I like... No sorry that's wrong. It was noonoo59...

Sorry... Baby brain.


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## MerrySherryRider (15 January 2013)

Oberon said:



			WARNING - POSTING WHILE A BIT TIPSY.....

I agree with horserider that barefoot people can come across as holier than thou sometimes. Not so much on here - but across the internet as a whole.

I am a member of a few Yahoo groups and one in particular has a barefoot focus (mainly US based). I was recently treated to a lovely lecture about the evils of stabling my horses at all and other aspects of my husbandry when I asked a question about pea gravel. I was made to feel belittled and it made me rather angry to be spoken to so.....my response was that in the absence of 20 acres of my own land, I have to use a livery yard and that means making compromises.......

You find a lot of new barefooters can be very excited by the concept and thus evangelical.
But when you've been around long enough - you get a broader perspective on what can and cannot be done....and sometimes shoes are just the best option all round.

I personally don't have an emotional investment in people shoeing their horse or not, but I would beg owners to stop blaming the horse, the weather or genetics for all hoof related problems and look at the feed, the management and the shoes before giving up and accepting unhealthy hooves. 
Challenge any professionals who blame the horse, the weather or genetics when faced with sick hooves and offer no other alternatives.

I would wish for people to please keep the hooves as healthy as possible - shod or not.

We should NOT still be losing young horses to behavioural problems, tendon/ligament problems, joint problems, back problems, navicular, laminitis etc etc in this country. We have the best trained farriers in the world and we have everything at our disposal - so WHY is this still happening? 

Hoof problems don't just affect the hooves....the whole body is under attack when the foundation is broken.

And the answer to this is always heartbars or Imprints 

It breaks my heart that we are losing horses needlessly. Often by the time an owner posts on here in desperation - it's too little, too late and the damage to the horse from years of poor hooves is catastrophic 

Prevention is better than cure.
		
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Good post, agree with you. For what its worth, it is much less antagonistic than it was, particularly amongst the old guard.


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## mulberrymill (15 January 2013)

I have 8 all unshod and except for 1 have never been shod. They all work, roads tracks etc, never lame, good feet and due to the amount of concrete in my stables and yard mainly self trim. If its not broken then why fix it, if they needed shoes they would have them.


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## NooNoo59 (15 January 2013)

It was me, but i did not have a question about heartbars, that was someone else.  But my horse did have contracted heels and has had his shoes off today, so i am awaiting advice about diet and the best boots to buy! If my horse becomes sound it will be because of this forum because this was the first place that i read about 'barefoot' and read threads about peoples experiences and advice, not 'obsessive' advice just people sharing what had happened to them which helped me make my own decision, and surely that is what this forum is for - help support advice bit of fun somewhere to bounce ideas around and get other peoples take on things.  I have been around horses for 40 years but you never stop learning and the day that you think you know it all and are not interested in looking at things from all points of view is the day you might as well give up because nobody will never know everything about every horse - bit like bringing up children really.


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## NooNoo59 (15 January 2013)

Oh and Oberon why are you drunk at five o clock in the afternoon you lucky thing!


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## Oberon (15 January 2013)

Day off - no horses, no work and teenager on a school trip.

I hit the bottle at 16.00 

Finished the bottle by 18.00.

Now it's 23.40 and I'm sober


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## Kat (16 January 2013)

@tallyho! It was me asking about heartbars but I'm not the one with the contracted heels. Mine has been bare for 14wks now


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## tallyho! (16 January 2013)

NooNoo59 said:



			It was me, but i did not have a question about heartbars, that was someone else.  But my horse did have contracted heels and has had his shoes off today, so i am awaiting advice about diet and the best boots to buy! If my horse becomes sound it will be because of this forum because this was the first place that i read about 'barefoot' and read threads about peoples experiences and advice, not 'obsessive' advice just people sharing what had happened to them which helped me make my own decision, and surely that is what this forum is for - help support advice bit of fun somewhere to bounce ideas around and get other peoples take on things.  I have been around horses for 40 years but you never stop learning and the day that you think you know it all and are not interested in looking at things from all points of view is the day you might as well give up because nobody will never know everything about every horse - bit like bringing up children really.
		
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Kat said:



			@tallyho! It was me asking about heartbars but I'm not the one with the contracted heels. Mine has been bare for 14wks now 

Click to expand...




tallyho! said:



			Oh what am I like... No sorry that's wrong. It was noonoo59...

Sorry... Baby brain.
		
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Thanks guys, sorry about that. As you can see above, I did apologise. I often get it wrong


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## BeesKnees (16 January 2013)

horserider said:



			Yes, I have had to deal with horses' feeling footie, but its not rocket science, reduce the time at grass during peak hours and work them steadily on a soft surface to increase fitness/metabolism and balance calorie input/output. Pretty basic stuff.
		
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But don't you think many people would see even this level of management of barefoot as faffing? Many who shoe would refuse to accept that restricting grass is necessary, and is all part of the BF obsession with fashion over good standard horsecare?! 

Certainly it would be beyond the knowledge of many, as seen by so many posts, to know when you manage grass, what surfaces to use to promote hoof rehab etc etc.

So perhaps you more obsessive and taffy than you thought?


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## MerrySherryRider (16 January 2013)

BeesKnees said:



			But don't you think many people would see even this level of management of barefoot as faffing? Many who shoe would refuse to accept that restricting grass is necessary, and is all part of the BF obsession with fashion over good standard horsecare?! 

Certainly it would be beyond the knowledge of many, as seen by so many posts, to know when you manage grass, what surfaces to use to promote hoof rehab etc etc.

So perhaps you more obsessive and taffy than you thought? 

Click to expand...

Now I wouldn't have thought horse management as basic as this, was difficult or time consuming. 

 If this is beyond the 'knowledge of many' then, prophylactic horse management is also beyond the scope of many. No wonder vets are rich. 

BTW, I don't do hoof rehab. There's nothing to rehab, a bit of sensitivity is hardly a rehab job. Its just another part of fundamental management and no different to deciding whether to rug or not, apply fly spray or prevent sun burn on a particular day.


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## tallyho! (17 January 2013)

horserider said:



			Now I wouldn't have thought horse management as basic as this, was difficult or time consuming. 

 If this is beyond the 'knowledge of many' then, prophylactic horse management is also beyond the scope of many. No wonder vets are rich. 

BTW, I don't do hoof rehab. There's nothing to rehab, a bit of sensitivity is hardly a rehab job. Its just another part of fundamental management and no different to deciding whether to rug or not, apply fly spray or prevent sun burn on a particular day.
		
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*Applauds*

Welcome back horserider 

Thought someone had nicked your profile...


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## Faro (17 January 2013)

Haven't read the full thread, so am simply answering the original poster's question.

I have 5 horses, none with shoes.

One of them is a retired broodmare - never been ridden, never been shod.
No. 2 is a (currently barren) broodmare - never been ridden, never been shod.

My 3 boys all work.  I've had them since foals/yearlings.  When they got to an age when they were started in work I thought to myself "I'm not going to put shoes on them just yet, simply because it's the "done" thing - I'll have them shod as and when they need it".

To this day, none of them have required shoes.  They are 13, 13 and 11 respectively and two of them compete at advanced level endurance (not even booted!) and have never been vetted out lame.

I'm not obsessed with barefoot - but over the years have become fimrly convinced that it's the best way.

Enough said.


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## BeesKnees (17 January 2013)

horserider said:



			Now I wouldn't have thought horse management as basic as this, was difficult or time consuming. 

 If this is beyond the 'knowledge of many' then, prophylactic horse management is also beyond the scope of many. No wonder vets are rich.
		
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Basic management to you maybe, but not to the reams of others who would question the need to "limit grass during peak hours", and see it as faffy BF nonsense (unless dealing with lami). In response to such footyness, how many people on here would advise shoeing? Quite a lot judging from all the threads.

But you don't shoe. You manage the soreness with the knowledge you have gained about causes (grass sugars) and treatment (exercise to manage metabolism). 

My point is that I think it is disingenuous of you to suggest you do nothing in particular to manage your horses BF.


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## Littlelegs (17 January 2013)

I do entirely see horseriders point though. My mare was shod for years simply cos it was the done thing, until current farrier suggested leaving them off as she doesn't need them. Apart from being careful where she put her feet on very stoney ground for a brief time, there were no problems & no changes in management. But, as a good doer who has ample energy, she has always had a simple diet aimed at managing her weight & avoiding fizziness. Low quality, rough grazing & forage, & the minimum of hard feed when hard work required it. So whilst I wasn't feeding at all for barefoot, her entire life she has had a diet that basically does the same job. 
  I also suspect that's why natives & cobs in general manage barefoot very easily. Anyone with half a brain tends to feed a non rich diet anyway to avoid weight issues & laminitis so they are already managing the horse in a manner that suits barefoot, same as I was. Whereas a poor doer tb people are more likely to feed richer forage & molassed hard feed.


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## potto (17 January 2013)

Ummm haven't had time to read whole thread, but loads of great stuff in there  as a current half shodder myself. who has dabbled in barefoot on occasion I have to say i do not think of bare foot as a cheap option.

If you have the right set up environment, management and lifestyle wise maybe but otherwise it can be expensive...and demoralising and a never ending cycle of being a carer to your horsey patient, while dreaming of perfection and watching everyone else ride past.  

This may change with ongoing research, education and livery structures and styles or managing horse care in the future who knows plus the development of better hoof boots.

On the other hand horse shoes again a sometimes necessary evil, also cause damage long`term to horses hooves that they are trying to protect but during this time how much fun, confidence and life experience can you and your horse be building together and sharing that would of been missed had your horse been unable to work at that level??? hmmm tricky...   

Are we knowledgeable enough to know when our horses hooves need a break from shoes and how long they need to be off for before putting back on or managing both depending what our horses tell us and the environments we find ourselves managing our equines in?    

It is all so complicated, but what i do know is that we are all time bombs and life is very short.. we all want the best for our friends and do what we feel is right with what we have, what we know and can afford.. so until we know more these are the choices we have. bare foot, shod or a combination of both....


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## tallyho! (17 January 2013)

BeesKnees said:



			Basic management to you maybe, but not to the reams of others who would question the need to "limit grass during peak hours", and see it as faffy BF nonsense (unless dealing with lami). In response to such footyness, how many people on here would advise shoeing? Quite a lot judging from all the threads.

But you don't shoe. You manage the soreness with the knowledge you have gained about causes (grass sugars) and treatment (exercise to manage metabolism). 

My point is that I think it is disingenuous of you to suggest you do nothing in particular to manage your horses BF.
		
Click to expand...

In HR's eyes, unless you we born on a horse with the full manuscript of horsecare and a vet degree microchipped into your circuitry then, you shouldn't have one.


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## MerrySherryRider (18 January 2013)

Tallyho. That's a rather silly accusation. Are you of the opinion   that most horse owners are unaware how to take steps to prevent laminitis or a host of other common conditions specific to horses. Perhaps you have a low opinion of horse owners. I don't.


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## tallyho! (18 January 2013)

LOL!!! HR... I think if you read your posts to yourself you may find that YOU are the one with a low opinion of other horse owners.


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## ester (18 January 2013)

HR just out of interest would you class horses who start off lame and end up sound after shoes come off as rehabs or not? Just a pondering as I suppose we have done a few things differently since the shoes came off but in hindsight they would really have been just as useful to do beforehand it's just the situation that forced us. Am thinking of things like having a track round the outside of the field.. though that was more for his weight as not in proper work than his feet per se.


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## MerrySherryRider (18 January 2013)

Tallyho. Would that be the barefooty people or just regular horseowners of either good status ? If you are referring to the latter then show me where. If it's the former, then yes, but just the weirdos.


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## MerrySherryRider (18 January 2013)

Hoof not good


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## tallyho! (19 January 2013)

horserider said:



			Tallyho. Would that be the barefooty people or just regular horseowners of either good status ? If you are referring to the latter then show me where. If it's the former, then yes, but just the weirdos.
		
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I have no idea what you mean by weirdos so I'll just bypass that. 

Are you saying barefooty people are not regular horseowners? My experiences are different to yours and having met lots of barefooty (even unshoddy!!) people I can honestly say they fall into the same category as regular horse owners. Their ideas may differ to yours and god forbid, they may have ideas of their own!

From what you have been writing, horse owners should consider the whole of "barefoot/unshod/shoeless" as basic stuff and not write about every minutiae on a forum. This obviously baffles you and you can't understand why people want to talk about horses feet. It does not seem to occur to you that many people have never considered riding a horse without shoes and so resent that people who have apparently done it all their lives have the opinion that they are lacking basic horse management to which you insinuate in your posts.

That's obviously your prerogative but you have to accept that if you write it here and people disagree, then a discourse could follow where you challenge each others ideas, as I, and a few other people here, have done.

The good thing to do would be to offer words that help as others have done, rather than hinder, but you seem unwilling to offer any form of help and stand by the sidelines watching barefoot posts and punctuating conversations with your usual unhelpful attitude.

It's not just you horserider, it is also others who have backgrounds where unshod is a "norm". Rather than help, the attitude seems to be: lets make a joke out of these people.


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## Flame_ (19 January 2013)

Quote doesn't seem to be working. 

just wanted to say Littlelegs made a really good point. 

In fact, maybe people have got a bit hung up on the whole shod/barefoot pros and cons when isn't it possible that it isn't actually shoes that are the problem but sports horse diets? Maybe all these horses with navic, collapsed heels, etc wouldn't go wrong in the first place, shod or not, if they were all fed the type of diet they get once they've gone wrong and the shoes come off? 

Sorry if that's really obvious to most people but its not something I'd thought about before.


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## MerrySherryRider (19 January 2013)

Oh dear tallyho , you make a lot of incorrect assumptions about me, l hope your lack of intuition is limited to people and not horses as well.


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## tallyho! (19 January 2013)

horserider said:



			Oh dear tallyho , you make a lot of incorrect assumptions about me, l hope your lack of intuition is limited to people and not horses as well.
		
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Well, I can only go on my past interactions with you on this subject and what I see of your interactions of others who post on the subject of barefoot. Therefore I can ONLY base my assumptions on what I see, as is the case with every member on HHO, vice versa.


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## cptrayes (19 January 2013)

Flame_ said:



			Quote doesn't seem to be working. 

just wanted to say Littlelegs made a really good point. 

In fact, maybe people have got a bit hung up on the whole shod/barefoot pros and cons when isn't it possible that it isn't actually shoes that are the problem but sports horse diets? Maybe all these horses with navic, collapsed heels, etc wouldn't go wrong in the first place, shod or not, if they were all fed the type of diet they get once they've gone wrong and the shoes come off? 

Sorry if that's really obvious to most people but its not something I'd thought about before.
		
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I think it's a very good point, especially if you couple it with the fact that it used to be normal for horses to have a period out of shoes each year.

It doesn't quite answer the question of why we shoe so many horses who never really need them, but it certainly explains why there are so many foot problems in modern shod horses.


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## Spring Feather (19 January 2013)

tallyho! said:



			It's not just you horserider, it is also others who have backgrounds where unshod is a "norm". Rather than help, the attitude seems to be: lets make a joke out of these people.
		
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No, you also picked me up on this and accused me of being self righteous which couldn't be further from the truth.  I've never been involved in barefoot posts in the past as they normally don't interest me.  I don't know why I even started reading this post, maybe it was a quiet day on here, who knows.  Anyhow for some reason this time I did reply with my comments on how my horses live without shoes.  I had no idea there was a barefoot diet; I just feed my horses and have the farrier take care of their feet and that's that.  It's not something odd to me, it's the norm where I live, and horses with shoes are noticed and are thought of as if they have a problem.  It's a huge put-off to most people around here.  This is just how it is here where I live and that's why I couldn't understand all the 'palaver' people were going to.  It's got nothing to do with being supercilious or taking the high moral ground, it is just something I do not understand because it doesn't happen here as a matter of course.  People just feed their horses (rarely with expensive, special feed, just what we see as 'normal feed') and most horses live out all the time on terrain similar to what you have in the UK.  Hence my querying the whole thing.  I don't believe I was ever rude in anything I said.  And my point about how many horses I have which you seemed to take umbrage to (why, I have no idea ) was to clarify that I don't just have one or two horses who happily live like this.  I don't have any 'help' to offer because I don't understand why we can but you guys can't.  It's not me being obtuse on purpose.

Having read all the comments on this thread and digested everything that's been said, it seems that the fact that most people where I live never shoe their horses at any stage in their lives may possibly be the over-riding factor in this?  Anyway I won't be getting involved in any other barefoot threads, one was quite enough for me.


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## Pale Rider (19 January 2013)

Spring Feather said:



			No, you also picked me up on this and accused me of being self righteous which couldn't be further from the truth.  I've never been involved in barefoot posts in the past as they normally don't interest me.  I don't know why I even started reading this post, maybe it was a quiet day on here, who knows.  Anyhow for some reason this time I did reply with my comments on how my horses live without shoes.  I had no idea there was a barefoot diet; I just feed my horses and have the farrier take care of their feet and that's that.  It's not something odd to me, it's the norm where I live, and horses with shoes are noticed and are thought of as if they have a problem.  It's a huge put-off to most people around here.  This is just how it is here where I live and that's why I couldn't understand all the 'palaver' people were going to.  It's got nothing to do with being supercilious or taking the high moral ground, it is just something I do not understand because it doesn't happen here as a matter of course.  People just feed their horses (rarely with expensive, special feed, just what we see as 'normal feed') and most horses live out all the time on terrain similar to what you have in the UK.  Hence my querying the whole thing.  I don't believe I was ever rude in anything I said.  And my point about how many horses I have which you seemed to take umbrage to (why, I have no idea ) was to clarify that I don't just have one or two horses who happily live like this.  I don't have any 'help' to offer because I don't understand why we can but you guys can't.  It's not me being obtuse on purpose.

Having read all the comments on this thread and digested everything that's been said, it seems that the fact that most people where I live never shoe their horses at any stage in their lives may possibly be the over-riding factor in this?  Anyway I won't be getting involved in any other barefoot threads, one was quite enough for me.
		
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Most people where I live shoe their horses to walk round a sand school and stand in a stable, where do you live? Sounds very sensible.


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## hihosilver (19 January 2013)

It is so much better for them in the long run, I would if I could but I have a mare who has soft thin soles so gets footy. It is all to do with money.


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## Pale Rider (19 January 2013)

hihosilver said:



			It is so much better for them in the long run, I would if I could but I have a mare who has soft thin soles so gets footy. It is all to do with money.
		
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Sorry Silver, haven't gpot a clue where your coming from with this.


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## Spring Feather (19 January 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			Most people where I live shoe their horses to walk round a sand school and stand in a stable, where do you live? Sounds very sensible.
		
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North America.  Where, according to HHO, we do things all wrong all the time lol


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## Pale Rider (19 January 2013)

Spring Feather said:



			North America.  Where, according to HHO, we do things all wrong all the time lol
		
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That explains a lot.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (19 January 2013)

Well I took my old boys shoes off for two reasons, to save money and to help his arthritis 

Hes sound, happy and really not getting ridden enough to warrant shoes so why pay for something thats not doing my horse any good. If he isnt sound shoeless then they would go back on, but him being semi retired I dont think he will need them anymore


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## tallyho! (19 January 2013)

Spring Feather said:



			No, you also picked me up on this and accused me of being self righteous which couldn't be further from the truth.  I've never been involved in barefoot posts in the past as they normally don't interest me.  I don't know why I even started reading this post, maybe it was a quiet day on here, who knows.  Anyhow for some reason this time I did reply with my comments on how my horses live without shoes.  I had no idea there was a barefoot diet; I just feed my horses and have the farrier take care of their feet and that's that.  It's not something odd to me, it's the norm where I live, and horses with shoes are noticed and are thought of as if they have a problem.  It's a huge put-off to most people around here.  This is just how it is here where I live and that's why I couldn't understand all the 'palaver' people were going to.  It's got nothing to do with being supercilious or taking the high moral ground, it is just something I do not understand because it doesn't happen here as a matter of course.  People just feed their horses (rarely with expensive, special feed, just what we see as 'normal feed') and most horses live out all the time on terrain similar to what you have in the UK.  Hence my querying the whole thing.  I don't believe I was ever rude in anything I said.  And my point about how many horses I have which you seemed to take umbrage to (why, I have no idea ) was to clarify that I don't just have one or two horses who happily live like this.  I don't have any 'help' to offer because I don't understand why we can but you guys can't.  It's not me being obtuse on purpose.

Having read all the comments on this thread and digested everything that's been said, it seems that the fact that most people where I live never shoe their horses at any stage in their lives may possibly be the over-riding factor in this?  Anyway I won't be getting involved in any other barefoot threads, one was quite enough for me.
		
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Sorry, I didn't take umbrage to how many horses you had. That's what you took from it.

I took umbrage to your comments on "special potions and lotions" and "special food" which came across as very patronising. 

You expressed your point of view. I am expressing mine.


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## cptrayes (19 January 2013)

hihosilver said:



			It is so much better for them in the long run, I would if I could but I have a mare who has soft thin soles so gets footy.
		
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There is plenty of advice on this forum about how to get thin soles to thicken up hihosilver. Can I suggest that you research diet, metabolic diseases and possibly put up a thread asking people how to cure them? Maybe on phoenixhorse.myfastforum.org where you will meet a number of people with barefoot horses that used to suffer from thin soles.


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