# Breeding from a mare with sarcoids?



## Hels_Bells (29 June 2010)

Just really wondering if anyone can tell me if sarcoids are heredetary and hence whether it is usual to breed from a mare that suffers from them?


----------



## TopTotty (29 June 2010)

Hi, Yes they are and persaonally I would not breed from a mare that had them. Sorry


----------



## emlybob (29 June 2010)

I am afraid i would agree with Jeni Ball.  I am not convinced they are 100% hereditary but not sure it is worth the risk.


----------



## stolensilver (29 June 2010)

Sarcoids are incredibly common and there is no evidence they are inherited. So if you have a really nice mare who has a small number of sarcoids that you can treat before she is put in foal (as you can't treat them once she's pregnant or nursing her foal) then go for it.


----------



## JanetGeorge (30 June 2010)

stolensilver said:



			Sarcoids are incredibly common and there is no evidence they are inherited. So if you have a really nice mare who has a small number of sarcoids that you can treat before she is put in foal (as you can't treat them once she's pregnant or nursing her foal) then go for it.
		
Click to expand...

Agree 100% - there is no evidence to suggest sarcoids are hereditary - and FAR more evidence to suggest that they are transmitted between horses via fly bites!

Actully, some sarcoids CAN be treated during pregnancy or lactation - I wouldn't want to use Liverpool Cream on an in-foal/lactating mare; but many sarcoids are suitable for banding and freezing - and I wouldn't be concerned about this method of treatment.


----------



## magic104 (30 June 2010)

JanetGeorge said:



			Agree 100% - there is no evidence to suggest sarcoids are hereditary - and FAR more evidence to suggest that they are transmitted between horses via fly bites!
		
Click to expand...

So does that mean the other horses that have shared a paddock for years with my mare wtih Occult sarcoids have been lucky then?  I dont think there has been enough research done, because I have also read that once they have them the wont get rid of them entirely.  My mare got her's after she had an operation to remove a splint bone.  We think the medication, & the stress of box rest triggered them.  After 6mths or so they cleared up & did not come back until she went away to be covered.  Again she was put under stress, what with injections to bring her in, not wanting to stand for the stallion etc, after a month she developed them again.

Personnally I would not have used her, just because the risk is there & you can not rule out the hereditary side.


----------



## millitiger (30 June 2010)

there is no proof that they are hereditary at all.

however, there is proof that they can be transmitted by flies so a mare and foal who would be in close proximity may pass them on.

some horses are susceptible and some aren't- i think i read a figure of 20% of horses are susceptible?

so if you have a horse with sarcoids and it goes out with horses from the 80% very unlikely to get sarcoids they will likely not be passed on.

there are also links to a run down immune system so when treating the sarcoid it is helpful to feed something to boost the immune system at the same time and also for horses who have had sarcoids, to feed them an immune booster when they are likely to be stressed (moving yards etc).


----------



## Hels_Bells (30 June 2010)

Thanks for the feedback guys.  Someone near me is using a mare with sarcoids (has a really nasty one on her eye and is turned out 24/7) as a brood mare year on year and I just wondered if it was usual or what the risks of transmission were.  I have absolutely no experience of breeding so thought I would ask the oracles of breeding forum!!


----------



## magic104 (30 June 2010)

millitiger said:



			there is no proof that they are hereditary at all.

there are also links to a run down immune system so when treating the sarcoid it is helpful to feed something to boost the immune system at the same time and also for horses who have had sarcoids, to feed them an immune booster when they are likely to be stressed (moving yards etc).
		
Click to expand...

That did not work for us, but everything suggests that stress was the trigger for our case.  Though it causes no problems to her as they are mainly confined to the kneck, they are often mistaken for ringworm.  No one knew the first time around what they were & in-fact they were dismissed, especially as they went away.  I just think that unless the mare is exceptional, with so many 100's to choose from, why choose one with an obvious problem?  Some of the other types of sarcoids are awful & really cause the horse discomfort.  If the medical profession could say 100% there was no hereditary link then fine, but they dont.  I have read about the flies, stress, cancer etc, but if it is cancer & we know that can run in families, it puts a question mark on the breeding horses with it.


----------



## millitiger (30 June 2010)

magic104- i think we have had this debate about sarcoids in the Breeding section before and i can't be ar$ed to go through it all again tbh! 

as for proving that they aren't hereditary- it is extremely hard to scientifically prove a negative statement.

i said an immune booster MAY help at times of stress, you may find that trying different ones may have an effect?
we still give my 4yro a herbal supplement at 'stressful' times- perhaps it does nothing but i don't mind wasting my money on him if it might help.


----------



## ruby1 (30 June 2010)

Our mare  had a sarcoid when she was a 2yr old which was cut out by our then vet. She is now 16 has bred 3 foals has moved to different yards a few times and been put in stressful situations ( like trying to get her in the blinking trailer) but she has never had another one.


----------



## magic104 (30 June 2010)

millitiger said:



			magic104- i think we have had this debate about sarcoids in the Breeding section before and i can't be ar$ed to go through it all again tbh! 

as for proving that they aren't hereditary- it is extremely hard to scientifically prove a negative statement.

i said an immune booster MAY help at times of stress, you may find that trying different ones may have an effect?
we still give my 4yro a herbal supplement at 'stressful' times- perhaps it does nothing but i don't mind wasting my money on him if it might help.
		
Click to expand...

Millitiger dont be so rude, I am entitled to put across our situation & I have not said you are wrong in what you have written.  It is MY opinon that I would not use a mare with sarcoids because you cant rule out the case for it being hereditary.  Just as some other cases were not triggered by stress or flies (because they developed them in winter).  If people want to use a mare with sarcoids, that's their choice, I have chosen not to.  No where in my posts have I said it is wrong for anyone else to choose to do so, if it has come across that way then I apologise.  I am open to it not being hereditary, but it does appear to ME to be on the increase.  I dont remember seeing more then one or two with it when I was growing up, so something has changed.


----------



## stolensilver (30 June 2010)

Magic I agree with you that sarcoids are now much more common than they were (and angleberries are rarer!) but it is far more likely that the virus that causes them has mutated (naturally, mutations occur in the wild all the time) and is now more virulent than it used to be. I wouldn't blame the horses, I'd blame the causative agent.


----------



## magic104 (30 June 2010)

stolensilver said:



			Magic I agree with you that sarcoids are now much more common than they were (and angleberries are rarer!) but it is far more likely that the virus that causes them has mutated (naturally, mutations occur in the wild all the time) and is now more virulent than it used to be. I wouldn't blame the horses, I'd blame the causative agent.
		
Click to expand...

Well lets hope it doesnt mutate too much or in some cases there wont be much horse left, just a big blob of sarcoid!!  And that is the picture I have in my head right now!  It does concern me about the spread being caused by flies, but touchwood, it hasnt happened yet.


----------



## Blacklist (30 June 2010)

Why not speak to a professional i.e a horse vet - there are far too many speculative opinions on this thread and indeed the forum in general. 

Much research has been done in the US and other countries I personally do not think sarcoids heredetary but as I said speak to an equine vet for a balanced professional opinion.


----------



## magic104 (30 June 2010)

Blacklist said:



			Why not speak to a professional i.e a horse vet - there are far too many speculative opinions on this thread and indeed the forum in general. 

Much research has been done in the US and other countries I personally do not think sarcoids heredetary but as I said speak to an equine vet for a balanced professional opinion.
		
Click to expand...

Tried that & thoughts were still divided, probably because there has not been enough research done yet.  We dont make life easier for ourselves, now we have to have passports for all equines it would not take much to put notes like this into them.


----------



## JanetGeorge (30 June 2010)

millitiger said:



			there are also links to a run down immune system so when treating the sarcoid it is helpful to feed something to boost the immune system at the same time and also for horses who have had sarcoids, to feed them an immune booster when they are likely to be stressed (moving yards etc).
		
Click to expand...

Actually, boosting the immune system is probably NOT helpful in treating some sarcoids - rather the opposite!!

8 years ago I was at a friend's livery yard and saw a promising young eventer with the worst case of sarcoids I'd ever seen - several hundred sarcoids spread over the inside of both hind legs from fetlock to groin.  They were ulcerated and bleeding from the horse scratching one leg with the opposite foot.  Friend told me horse was going to Liverpool the following day - my reaction was: "Waste of diesel - he's too far gone."

Prof K. shared my opinion and wanted to put the horse down on humane grounds - insurnce co. wouldn't have it.  So Prof K. treated the horse with a VERY experimental treatment (then), using an immuno-suppressant drug!  His immune system was completely knocked out!  He came back to livery yard several weeks later - no sarcoids - they had literally dried up and healed!

Owner didn't want to keep horse for personal reasons and I was looking for a cheap hunter at the time - so I bought him, literally for peanuts!  He arrived home with the start of Strangles - yard had a carrier they didn't know about - only this horse and 2 newly arrived Irish horses got Strangles - the rest had immunity.  Got that sorted and the horse has never looked back - he's done 7 seasons carrying the huntsman and will shortly start his 8th.  Never had another sarcoid.

Prof K. had used this treatment on a number of 'last resort' cases - it worked brilliantly on more than 50% of them.  Which would indicate to ME that in some severe cases there is a DAMAGING effect from the horse's own immune system - and in these cases, BOOSTING the immune system may well make things far worse.

There is a LOT we don't know for sure about sarcoids - but my experience with them has led me to believe that:

1.  Flies are implicated in many cases.
2.  There is a mutation effect with the virus responsible.
3.  There may well be an involvement of the immune system - but more a case of the immune system over-reacting to sarcoids and making them worse.

My principles in dealing with them:

1.  Treat as soon as practical with the method most appropriate to the type and location - preferably NOT during the fly season!

2.  Treat using a protocol agreed with my vet in consultation with Prof. K!


----------



## haras (30 June 2010)

My mare developed a few nodular sarcoids over the winter following a stressfull accident and 6 weeks box rest.

I discussed them with my vet and also that I wanted to breed from her.  My vet discussed it with prof K and his advice was to treat agressively immediately and then would be no issues in breeding her a month after treatment finished.

She was treated in March and was covered 2 weeks ago.  The evidence that they are hereditary is questionable.


----------



## jaypeebee (30 June 2010)

None of my mares have sarcoids but if any of them developed them then yes I would continue breeding them.  The information Ive found on them is that it is very debateable (sp) as to whether they are hereditary or not.  I know flies are a problem and seem to be the leading cause for some suseptible young horses to get them as sarcoids are viral.  I dont see anything wrong with your friend breeding her mare OP but it sounds like you do.


----------



## bj_cardiff (30 June 2010)

I'd never buy a horse with sarcoids.. but if one developed them and I happened to have a stallion about (so no stud fee) I'd prob risk it..


----------

