# Fig at Vale BD report!



## nikkimariet (15 July 2012)

Took MicroFig to Vale today - P14 and N24...

Firstly, HURRAH I didn't get rained on 

Secondly, he broke his third pair of hobbles about 1/2 a mile away from home....but the lorry is still in one piece.

Thirdly, we had a good one!! First time stressaging without PS and I have come away sanity mostly intact 

Fig warmed up like a total star. Really taking me forwards, felt like he was ready to offer *more* at any moment. Given his calm attitude today, took the chance to incorporate walk/canter canter/walk into our warm up - find it helps get him a bit sharper off my leg. Pleased to report no adverse reactions!! Although a friends mum did come round the corner just as he spooked/tempi changed/****** off round the corner due to resident pigeons scrapping  Timing.

Few mistakes in the Prelim. Major one, mine, I forgot the dratted give and retake AGAIN. Shoot me? He jogged in the free walk, but zero chomping, gurning and a lovely swing to it. We had a slight encounter during 20m circle, he went to dive to the inside, I said no and so a crooked potato was ridden  But other than that, soft and sweet.

Light years to wait between tests (3 1/2 hours). So mooched around waiting for scores. 66.67% (4 in section, 9 overall) which placed us 2nd and 2nd respectively 

Came out very chilled but 100% listening for the Novice  Time ran over a little, so he was 10 minutes or so past his best by the time we went in, but still gave it his all  Jogged in the free walk again, but shmeh, I'd rather have him a little too forwards than a little too backwards. Or any kind of backwards!! 

Perved over lots of pretty discounted clothes in the shop whilst we waited for scores, HRH Father Turner bought HRM Mother Turner a new coat. And offered to buy me my dream coat. Until he saw the price tag  Coaxed him into some junk food instead!!!

64.62% (10 in section, 14 overall) which placed us 3rd and 4th respectively  Absolutely beaming!! Because a, there is plenty more to come and b, we had some seriously established competition! Top 3 %'s overall were a 66.something, 67.something and 70.something. Not bad for a third Novice outing 

No pictures from today  BUT, I can offer you some pics from a photoshoot with Sol from last weekend!

Trot:





Leg yield:





Shoulder in:





Canter:










Love his excitable top lip!






Oh, and as promised. Here is a small selection of classic Dad quotes:

'Can we go home yet?'
'Dressage is boring.'
'Why have you put tubi grip on his legs?'
'Fig has a lot more sparkles than the other horses.'



Next outing is Regionals. Absolutely terrified does not even cover it.... Moving solidly up to Novice after that, so looking forward to less horrendously early starts 

Remnants of a major chocolate feast on offer!


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## TuscanBunnyGirl (15 July 2012)

Lovely pics  Congratulations


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## MileyMouse (15 July 2012)

He looks fab, well done on your results this weekend 

I must admit to falling in love with his brownband


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## MileyMouse (15 July 2012)

*browband (stupid phone, posted before I wax ready!) and my lad has suddenly found one attached to his bridle !!


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## dafthoss (15 July 2012)

nikkimariet said:



			Oh, and as promised. Here is a small selection of classic Dad quotes:

'Can we go home yet?'
'Dressage is boring.' and this is why you should start jumping him 
'Why have you put tubi grip on his legs?' thats the sort of thing my mum would say 
'Fig has a lot more sparkles than the other horses.' and this is a bad thing because? 

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Love daddy turners comments  

Well done to you and figlet! I'm trying to get the person at the yard doing regionals at addlington to take me as her groom so will wave if we see you.


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## MandyMoo (15 July 2012)

well done! lovely photos  loving the quotes!!


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## Lolo (15 July 2012)

Clever pony  Good luck at the regionals!! 

Also loving the quotes... Mum doesn't really say that many mad things aside from the brilliant commentary she provides on videos ("Where's the wine?" being a highlight)!


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## Ferdinase514 (15 July 2012)

Well done  

Tubigrip?! 

Your Dad is very good - mine came to visit last week and remained a nervous 5 paces from the horses at all times!


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## nikkimariet (15 July 2012)

TuscanBunnyGirl said:



			Lovely pics  Congratulations
		
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 thanks!!



MileyMouse said:



			He looks fab, well done on your results this weekend 

I must admit to falling in love with his brownband
		
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Thanks MM  Love his browband, super duper sparkly!



dafthoss said:



			Love daddy turners comments  

Well done to you and figlet! I'm trying to get the person at the yard doing regionals at addlington to take me as her groom so will wave if we see you.
		
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One can never sparkle too much  That would be ace, you must come say hello if you do go!



MandyMoo said:



			well done! lovely photos  loving the quotes!! 

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Thanks!  He kept me amused it has to be said!



Lolo said:



			Clever pony  Good luck at the regionals!! 

Also loving the quotes... Mum doesn't really say that many mad things aside from the brilliant commentary she provides on videos ("Where's the wine?" being a highlight)!
		
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Thanks Lolo  My mum is never let near such things as camcorder, techno-tard doesn't quite cover it....



FinnMcCoul said:



			Well done  

Tubigrip?! 

Your Dad is very good - mine came to visit last week and remained a nervous 5 paces from the horses at all times!
		
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Thanks 

Hah! I can imagine the look on your face was similar to the look on mine!

Lol, mines the opposite, will gladly walk up to any horse and firmly pat it right between the eyes....no fear!


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## samsbilly (15 July 2012)

he looks amazing. xx


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## tonitot (15 July 2012)

He's lovely  I think we should swap horses, so you can teach Ethel all this dressagey stuff and once shes learnt it we can swap back


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## nikkimariet (15 July 2012)

samsbilly said:



			he looks amazing. xx
		
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Thank you  He's giving me such an amazing feel when I ride him at the moment!



tonitot said:



			He's lovely  I think we should swap horses, so you can teach Ethel all this dressagey stuff and once shes learnt it we can swap back 

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 thanks! I love the fact your horse is called Ethel - that is awesome!!


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## BuzzLightyear (15 July 2012)

Just simply gorgeous! Look at that muscle tone 
Well done with the scores, looking forward to the regional report!!!!


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## Laafet (15 July 2012)

He looks so good, well done on the scores, some more shiney points for Fig. We are doing our 1st Affil. Novice next weekend if Nickel's feet haven't crumbled completely away by then (grrr). And good luck at the Regionals, I am sure he will be a total star!


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## rowy (15 July 2012)

Well done  and good luck for the regionals


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## spookypony (15 July 2012)

What a good day out for you! Congrats! Really liking the LY pic.


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## nikkimariet (15 July 2012)

BuzzLightyear said:



			Just simply gorgeous! Look at that muscle tone 
Well done with the scores, looking forward to the regional report!!!!
		
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Thanks  He's really packed it on recently!! I am scared 



Laafet said:



			He looks so good, well done on the scores, some more shiney points for Fig. We are doing our 1st Affil. Novice next weekend if Nickel's feet haven't crumbled completely away by then (grrr). And good luck at the Regionals, I am sure he will be a total star!
		
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 thank you! Fingers crossed the rain stops soon. Fed up of everything being soggy! I am hoping he will behave himself, that's all I ask 



rowy said:



			Well done  and good luck for the regionals 

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Thanks rowy!



spookypony said:



			What a good day out for you! Congrats! Really liking the LY pic. 

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He felt really....easy today  Pssst we have started half pass and travers, seems to have picked up the idea pretty damn quickly!


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## TPO (15 July 2012)

He's looking so good 

Well done and good luck for the Regionals.


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## nikkimariet (15 July 2012)

TPO said:



			He's looking so good 

Well done and good luck for the Regionals.
		
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Thanks TPO  Starting to look like a proper little horse now, neck/general topline coming along leaps and bounds though!

Thank you - honest to god, sick to bottom of stomach nervous!!


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## Tr0uble (15 July 2012)

He really has packed some on!

Mane getting a little native?! What's that all about!! Lol


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## nikkimariet (15 July 2012)

Tr0uble said:



			He really has packed some on!

Mane getting a little native?! What's that all about!! Lol
		
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Lol!!! It's erm, a bit hanson like isn't it  Suspect there's a bit of Fell in him 

Tell you what though, my plaits were flipping wicked today. Tres poofy. Forelock aside, which was the most flaccid slug looking thing ever. French plaits = my nemesis.


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## Tr0uble (15 July 2012)

Just seen your pro pic on FB and did inspect the plaits! Lol! Looked good to me!

Forelocks were my nemesis too, but don't give up, today the forelock was the best plait for me!! Finally got it licked!


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## Passage... (15 July 2012)

Every set of pics he looks stronger & more established, bet your over the moon x


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## nikkimariet (15 July 2012)

Tr0uble said:



			Just seen your pro pic on FB and did inspect the plaits! Lol! Looked good to me!

Forelocks were my nemesis too, but don't give up, today the forelock was the best plait for me!! Finally got it licked!
		
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Ahh those would have been the handiwork of PS 

These were todays effort:





Nice and poofy, rocking the (desired) golf ball look. Love big plaits. Bottom one a teeny bit squint if I'm being picky.... I much prefer 7 on him though. And only took 30 mins (sewn in). I shouldn't really admit that though, or PS will make me do my own plaits from now on 

A french plait is an inconceivably complex concoction of fingers, knots and brain cells.


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## nikkimariet (15 July 2012)

Passage... said:



			Every set of pics he looks stronger & more established, bet your over the moon x
		
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 thank you! Yes, pleased as pie with him  Plenty more to come from him, he's only been doing this 6 months!! I am so so so excited thinking about where we might be in a years time!!


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## dafthoss (15 July 2012)

A french plait is an inconceivably complex concoction of fingers, knots and brain cells.
		
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Is that why you dont plait tails?  Nice plaits though. 

If I do go photo/groom for friend at regionals I'll be with the big ginger warmblood with a white face that thinks its the family shetland despite being nearly 17hh  but he is doing meduim ones so dont know if we will see you.


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## Tr0uble (15 July 2012)

Ah I assumed that was a pic from today! Still looking good though!

7 doesn't work on R, 9 is his magic number. Mine weren't my best today but the forelock rocked!


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## luckyhorseshoe (15 July 2012)

Well done fabby report! Figs looking great!


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## nikkimariet (15 July 2012)

dafthoss said:



			Is that why you dont plait tails?  Nice plaits though. 

If I do go photo/groom for friend at regionals I'll be with the big ginger warmblood with a white face that thinks its the family shetland despite being nearly 17hh  but he is doing meduim ones so dont know if we will see you.
		
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Haha it's a good excuse, but no I much prefer unplaited/pulled tails for some reason!

Oh boo  Guess we'll find out on 24th when times are released? Hoping to stay to watch a friend do her Elem, so might bump into you! Probably literally, I'm a massive clutz.



Tr0uble said:



			Ah I assumed that was a pic from today! Still looking good though!

7 doesn't work on R, 9 is his magic number. Mine weren't my best today but the forelock rocked!





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9 is my lucky number! Gosh, yours are *so* neat! Does R have a thick mane? I know you don't let him rock the hanson look 



luckyhorseshoe said:



			Well done fabby report! Figs looking great! 

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Thanks LHS  He has come out of his Jekyll/Hyde phase for the better, and getting really stuck into his sessions again!


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## MissTyc (15 July 2012)

He's turned into MuscleMan! LOVE!


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## nikkimariet (15 July 2012)

MissTyc said:



			He's turned into MuscleMan! LOVE!
		
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Haha that really made me laugh!!


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## Sol (15 July 2012)

Nice photos  He looks fab, well done!!


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## JFTDWS (15 July 2012)

lovely photos - and great results   he's getting more awesome all the time


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## cptrayes (15 July 2012)

NikkiM I have a couple of questions that I would like to ask about the way that Fig is working in your photos but I know that I will be accused of trying to rain on your parade if I do. If you post only to let people know how he has done then just ignore this post and I won't read your updates in future. If you are happy to let people learn by a discussion about how he is working, post and say so and I will ask my questions. 

He has a beautiful face, just lovely


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## MillionDollar (16 July 2012)

Fab, well done  

Good Luck for Regionals 

P.S. What's the tubigrip for?


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## nikkimariet (16 July 2012)

Sol said:



			Nice photos  He looks fab, well done!! 

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 I love all these photos, esp the one of his crazy top lip!! Thank you, small brown pony pas de deux on the cards?!



JFTD said:



			lovely photos - and great results   he's getting more awesome all the time 

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Thanks JFTD, he's so much stronger now than even a month ago!



cptrayes said:



			NikkiM I have a couple of questions that I would like to ask about the way that Fig is working in your photos but I know that I will be accused of trying to rain on your parade if I do. If you post only to let people know how he has done then just ignore this post and I won't read your updates in future. If you are happy to let people learn by a discussion about how he is working, post and say so and I will ask my questions. 

He has a beautiful face, just lovely 

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You can ask me anything you like, by PM - it's you that wants to ask the questions, so it's you that I will give the answers to. And I don't think that's an unfair request given the context of your previous post on one of my threads.

Thank you, he is a very sweet boy and I can't describe how happy he makes me 



MillionDollar said:



			Fab, well done  

Good Luck for Regionals 

P.S. What's the tubigrip for? 

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Thanks MD 

 It's not that far away at all!!

God knows - but now starting to wonder if he thinks I have lots of different coloured tubi grip for home


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## cptrayes (16 July 2012)

Thankyou Nikki I will PM, reluctantly, because my comments would be intended to be shared with other people who want to emulate your success with Fig. Seemingly, you want to use HHO as a blog where only totally positive comments are acceptable. Why don't you start a blog where people can follow your progress and you can edit posts to ensure that no-one ever says anything that you don't want to hear?  blogpot.com is free and really good.


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## Sol (16 July 2012)

nikkimariet said:



 I love all these photos, esp the one of his crazy top lip!! Thank you, small brown pony pas de deux on the cards?!
		
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For sure  Although I think Dante would be well & truly out ponced by Fig! I could always make up for his lack of ability with extra sparkles though... right?!


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## olop (16 July 2012)

Lovely pics 
Good luck at the regionals hun!


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## elliefiz (16 July 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Thankyou Nikki I will PM, reluctantly, because my comments would be intended to be shared with other people who want to emulate your success with Fig. Seemingly, you want to use HHO as a blog where only totally positive comments are acceptable. Why don't you start a blog where people can follow your progress and you can edit posts to ensure that no-one ever says anything that you don't want to hear?  blogpot.com is free and really good.
		
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Completely agree cptrayes- there's other horsey forums out there for teenage girls who want to show off and be told how great they are. The spirit of CR has always been that questions are asked and answered and opinions given which everyone has a choice to agree or disagree with. There's no denying the great work that has gone into Fig and he is a credit to the riders hard work and dedication. However not everyone might agree with how he has been trained or how quickly- that's the beauty of a forum where everyone is entitled to their opinion. If pictures are only been posted so everyone can gush over how lovely and pretty they look then maybe the Photo Gallery might be a better location in future. Im surprised that genuine questions regarding progression, training, methods etc would be turned down by anyone on an open forum- most threads seem to welcome them. Cptrayes maybe save your questions for someone who would be grateful that you showed any interest.


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## JFTDWS (16 July 2012)

elliefiz said:



			Completely agree cptrayes- there's other horsey forums out there for teenage girls who want to show off and be told how great they are. The spirit of CR has always been that questions are asked and answered and opinions given which everyone has a choice to agree or disagree with. There's no denying the great work that has gone into Fig and he is a credit to the riders hard work and dedication. However not everyone might agree with how he has been trained or how quickly- that's the beauty of a forum where everyone is entitled to their opinion. If pictures are only been posted so everyone can gush over how lovely and pretty they look then maybe the Photo Gallery might be a better location in future. Im surprised that genuine questions regarding progression, training, methods etc would be turned down by anyone on an open forum- most threads seem to welcome them. Cptrayes maybe save your questions for someone who would be grateful that you showed any interest.
		
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I imagine NMT's concern is that the questions cptrayes has are not about the horse or the subject of the thread, given previous experience.  However, it's neither my business nor my concern...


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## Mickeymoo (16 July 2012)

Great pics and well done on your results and surviving a day out with HRH, but you should have put more pressure on to get the 'coat of your dreams'.  I am quite disapointed with your negotiation skills. 

I will be trying out your plaiting techniques at the weekend. 

Keep on posting. xxx


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## Lolo (16 July 2012)

I agree with NMT- I post reports, and all I want is positive comments and CC from people who I trust. Because this is the function of the forum- you can share and update, or you can ask for advice... You don't HAVE to do either. 

Maybe, once NMT has seen cptrayes' questions, she can consider her answers and then post them in here. Win-win


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## nikkimariet (16 July 2012)

elliefiz said:



			Completely agree cptrayes- there's other horsey forums out there for teenage girls who want to show off and be told how great they are. The spirit of CR has always been that questions are asked and answered and opinions given which everyone has a choice to agree or disagree with. There's no denying the great work that has gone into Fig and he is a credit to the riders hard work and dedication. However not everyone might agree with how he has been trained or how quickly- that's the beauty of a forum where everyone is entitled to their opinion. If pictures are only been posted so everyone can gush over how lovely and pretty they look then maybe the Photo Gallery might be a better location in future. Im surprised that genuine questions regarding progression, training, methods etc would be turned down by anyone on an open forum- most threads seem to welcome them. Cptrayes maybe save your questions for someone who would be grateful that you showed any interest.
		
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cptrayes said:



			Thankyou Nikki I will PM, reluctantly, because my comments would be intended to be shared with other people who want to emulate your success with Fig. Seemingly, you want to use HHO as a blog where only totally positive comments are acceptable. Why don't you start a blog where people can follow your progress and you can edit posts to ensure that no-one ever says anything that you don't want to hear?  blogpot.com is free and really good.
		
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Why ought I be grateful that cptrayes who has made rude, crude, and deeply personal remarks about myself (my body in particular) previously, is suggesting a tirade of questions that will get her accused of 'raining on my parade'? Admitting you want to ask questions that will likely cause offence, sort of says it all. Disagreeing and agreeing is one thing. Intentionally offending is completely separate.

[Content removed], the tone of your post completely negates your offer of concern and advice and having read your PM, I am left with little doubt that you truly wanted to provoke a constructive discussion.

Also, elliefiz, I'm not a teenager, I'm someone old enough to recognize a firestarter.


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## nikkimariet (16 July 2012)

Sol said:



			For sure  Although I think Dante would be well & truly out ponced by Fig! I could always make up for his lack of ability with extra sparkles though... right?! 

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If you won't dazzle with your moves, dazzle with your sparkles 



olop said:



			Lovely pics 
Good luck at the regionals hun!
		
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 thank you!! Getting more nervous every day!!


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## cptrayes (16 July 2012)

I have never been rude or crude. The post I made was very carefully worded out of genuine concern for both you and other girls of your age. If anyone doubts this please check my previous post, I will not repeat it here.


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## cptrayes (16 July 2012)

nikkimariet said:



			the tone of your post completely negates your offer of concern and advice and having read your PM, I am left with little doubt that you truly wanted to provoke a constructive discussion.
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OK gloves are off if you want it that way Nikki. You cannot refer to the tone that I used and then refuse to let people see it. 

I don't have a copy, but for interest of others I queried, perfectly politely the following:

Fig is overbent in the pictures on this thread. I asked whether this was a fault in his work that Nikki is trying to correct or whether her trainer gets her to train him that way (many do).

I queried how high his bit is in his mouth. 

I queried the set up of her cavesson noseband and flash as a grackle. I asked her if she has ever had comments about the fact that he is effectively competing in a grackle.

I was not rude. I genuinely would like answers. Other people on this forum also deserve to learn by those answers.


ps I did not sign my PM to you with my forename. It is not in my user name. I have asked Fatty to remove it because you are out of time to edit. Please do not use it again.


pps please print my PM in full so that other people can see that I was not rude in the slightest.


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## Polotash (16 July 2012)

He looks lovely as ever :0)

Can I ask what your saddle is please, it looks sooo comfy!?


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## nikkimariet (16 July 2012)

JFTD said:



			I imagine NMT's concern is that the questions cptrayes has are not about the horse or the subject of the thread, given previous experience.  However, it's neither my business nor my concern...
		
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Nail on head JFTD 



MickeyMoo said:



			Great pics and well done on your results and surviving a day out with HRH, but you should have put more pressure on to get the 'coat of your dreams'.  I am quite disapointed with your negotiation skills. 

I will be trying out your plaiting techniques at the weekend. 

Keep on posting. xxx
		
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Thanks  Haha he did say I could have it for christmas, but I've got a bit of money put by as a 'beautiful coat' fund so hopefully in another month I'll be able to purchase!!



Lolo said:



			I agree with NMT- I post reports, and all I want is positive comments and CC from people who I trust. Because this is the function of the forum- you can share and update, or you can ask for advice... You don't HAVE to do either. 

Maybe, once NMT has seen cptrayes' questions, she can consider her answers and then post them in here. Win-win 

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Very well said.

You can either take or leave CC. I've been on both sides of the pond; I've had CC when I didn't ask for it and I've given CC when it wasn't asked for.

CC is meant to be constructive. Key word being constructive in terms of advice. Not constructive in terms of building a metaphorical bonfire.


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## nikkimariet (16 July 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I have never been rude or crude. The post I made was very carefully worded out of genuine concern for both you and other girls of your age. If anyone doubts this please check my previous post, I will not repeat it here.
		
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*jaw on floor*

As before, I will point out that a truly concerned person would have PM'd me.



cptrayes said:



			OK gloves are off if you want it that way Nikki. You cannot refer to the tone that I used and then refuse to let people see it. 

I don't have a copy, but for interest of others I queried, perfectly politely the following:

Fig is overbent in the pictures on this thread. I asked whether this was a fault in his work that Nikki is trying to correct or whether her trainer gets her to train him that way (many do).

I queried how high his bit is in his mouth. 

I queried the set up of her cavesson noseband and flash as a grackle. I asked her if she has ever had comments about the fact that he is effectively competing in a grackle.

I was not rude. I genuinely would like answers. Other people on this forum also deserve to learn by those answers.


ps I did not sign my PM to you with my forename. It is not in my user name. I have asked Fatty to remove it because you are out of time to edit. Please do not use it again.
		
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The tone referred to your post in this thread. And my previous thread.

"Fig is overbent in your photos the whole time in your latest post. I am intrigued whether this is a mistake in his carriage that you are aware of and trying to correct, or whether it is how your trainer teaches you to train him. If the latter - do you have any issues with getting him to work in a correct outline in a test?

Your bit is very, very high in Fig's mouth and I can't help but wonder if that is really comfortable for him?

And is the height of the bit why you have a cavesson and flash set up as a grackle? If you ride him with that noseband set-up in a test, have you ever had any comments that to all intents and purposes you are riding him in a grackle?

I am happy for you to repeat this PM on the thread if you feel, as I do, that people could learn from it."

Also, that's the exact copy of your PM. Which I'll answer.

He's been doing dressage for 6 months, like any baby horse, his head carriage changes slightly when learning/being pushed. His poll is low at times yes, but he's hardly come BTV in these pictures at all. The headshot yes, but I'm 99.9% sure that was when I was cooling him off so asking him to come deeper and rounder.

The bit is in the correct position for his mouth, any higher and he 'smiles'.

This is a flash noseband. Set up correctly. The points of pressure are completely different. And no, I haven't had any comments. For reference, this is what a grackle looks like: http://www.centralsaddlery.co.uk/mediaLibrary/images/english/84006.jpg

Lol I guessed right then  



Polotash said:



			He looks lovely as ever :0)

Can I ask what your saddle is please, it looks sooo comfy!?
		
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Thank you and I love my saddle! It is a Bates Innova with standard blocks


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## jodie :) (16 July 2012)

I'm a bit of a lurker on here, hut fig is one of my favourite HHO horses. He looks fab nikki, you've done an amazing job with him and I'm so glad you're reaping the results of all your hard work at BD now  if


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## cptrayes (16 July 2012)

He's been doing dressage for 6 months, like any baby horse, his head carriage changes slightly when learning/being pushed. His poll is low at times yes, but he's hardly come BTV in these pictures at all. The headshot yes, but I'm 99.9% sure that was when I was cooling him off so asking him to come deeper and rounder.

The bit is in the correct position for his mouth, any higher and he 'smiles'.

This is a flash noseband. Set up correctly. The points of pressure are completely different. And no, I haven't had any comments. For reference, this is what a grackle looks like: http://www.centralsaddlery.co.uk/med...lish/84006.jpg

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We differ on all three counts, but that's what forums are for, discussion. 

I think he is overbent in all your photos on this thread and that it is weighting his forehand. From your answer this is not something that your trainer gets you to do and therefore I believe that, ,like me, you own a natural "curler upper" and have to find exercises to keep his poll at the highest point.

Your bit looks far too high to me, not too low. It could be a trick of the photo but it is a modern dressage trait to bit very high, and one I have previously, long before I ever knew about you, posted a thread about.

Your cavesson and flash, unless your photo is misleading, is in no way set up as a cavesson and flash. The cavesson is a very long way higher than it is normal to fit a cavesson. It does not sit straight around his face, the front half dips markedly. With a flash on, the noseband then sits exactly as a grackle does, and grackles are illegal in pure dressage (but not BE) which is why I wonder whether you have ever had it commented upon.

Thankyou for your answers.


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## jodie :) (16 July 2012)

*typed on my phone and accidentally pressed enter! If what cptrayes is saying is true, surely you wouldn't be doing as well at BD as you are and SURELY the judge at your last comp would've picked up on your noseband?! I think some people are just looking for an argument....must not have anything better to do!


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## JFTDWS (16 July 2012)

*stares endlessly at photos showing noseband trying to work out how it is a grackle in disguise...  wanders off looking confused*


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## jodie :) (16 July 2012)

JFDT- I'm with you on that one!


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## cptrayes (16 July 2012)

jodie :) said:



			*typed on my phone and accidentally pressed enter! If what cptrayes is saying is true, surely you wouldn't be doing as well at BD as you are and SURELY the judge at your last comp would've picked up on your noseband?! I think some people are just looking for an argument....must not have anything better to do!
		
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So if immediate ends justify the means, do you agree with Totilas having been trained in Rollkur?

And if you read my post I am SYMPATHISING with the difficulties of training a horse who curls up, as I have one too.


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## Tr0uble (16 July 2012)

Well...THAT didn't take long!


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## cptrayes (16 July 2012)

JFTD said:



			*stares endlessly at photos showing noseband trying to work out how it is a grackle in disguise...  wanders off looking confused*
		
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The picture which Nikki has used is a mexican grackle. English grackles sit lower and are still illegal at BD.


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## MollyMoomin (16 July 2012)

JFTD said:



			*stares endlessly at photos showing noseband trying to work out how it is a grackle in disguise...  wanders off looking confused*
		
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See, I did this too and composed a PM to them both, intending to ask how & why cos I genuinely don't see a grackle disguised as a flash there either. :unsure: (I deleted it & didn't send it.)

Lovely boy. Love the last picture.

*wanders back out of thread*

No, I've come back to this. My cob wears a cavesson which has a flash loop but has NEVER been used as a flash. Ever. It dips, considerably at the front. ( https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?....424822105457.211353.511365457&type=1&theater ) In order to have it dead straight as a cavesson 'should' be, you need to have it so tight the cob can't breathe or move her jaw. Maybe NMT's noseband is the same?


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## JFTDWS (16 July 2012)

cptrayes said:



			The picture which Nikki has used is a mexican grackle. English grackles sit lower and are still illegal at BD.
		
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I am actually familiar with grackles, thanks.  I am still unsure as to how the crank (which appears loose-ish to me and does not sit like a grackle in my opinion) with flash is functioning as one.  If you can elaborate perhaps we will see the light?


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## elliefiz (16 July 2012)

cptrayes said:



			NikkiM I have a couple of questions that I would like to ask about the way that Fig is working in your photos but I know that I will be accused of trying to rain on your parade if I do. If you post only to let people know how he has done then just ignore this post and I won't read your updates in future. If you are happy to let people learn by a discussion about how he is working, post and say so and I will ask my questions. 

He has a beautiful face, just lovely 

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Am flummoxed as to how anyone would read this as cptrayes looking to post rude or abusive comments?! She quite clearly states what the question would be about. I do not agree with nasty or mean remarks to anyone whether on a forum in real life. I have not a clue what was said in the past. what I take umbrage with is someone having to ask if they can ask a question! And then being told only in private! What's the point of posting on a forum then? Just keep it to your Facebook buddies who can be deleted if you don't like what they say! 

Also NM using someone's real name on a forum is terribly bad form. Cptrayes has done absolutely nothing wrong except to ask a question, if you don't want to answer it you can ignore him/ her or even better put the user on UI so you need never have to worry about what they say again. You say you are not a teenager- well that's a childish and rude way to act, it's not the first time you have done it- I know another users real name as a result of another one of your posts. Shame on you that's really terrible forum etiquette.


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## nikkimariet (16 July 2012)

jodie :) said:



			I'm a bit of a lurker on here, hut fig is one of my favourite HHO horses. He looks fab nikki, you've done an amazing job with him and I'm so glad you're reaping the results of all your hard work at BD now  if
		
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jodie :) said:



			*typed on my phone and accidentally pressed enter! If what cptrayes is saying is true, surely you wouldn't be doing as well at BD as you are and SURELY the judge at your last comp would've picked up on your noseband?! I think some people are just looking for an argument....must not have anything better to do!
		
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Thank you, he makes it very easy, he is so so genuine  Yes, I would expect a listed judge to pick up on something that is apparantely so obvious 



cptrayes said:



			We differ on all three counts. I think he is overbent in all your photos on this thread and that it is weighting his forehand. From your answer this is not something that your trainer gets you to do and therefore I believe that, ,like me, you own a natural "curler upper" and have to find exercises to keep his poll at the highest point.

Your bit looks far too high to me, not too low. It could be a trick of the photo but it is a modern dressage trait to bit very high, and one I have previously, long before I ever knew about you, posted a thread about.

Your cavesson and flash, unless your photo is misleading, is in no way set up as a cavesson and flash. The cavesson is a very long way higher than it is normal to fit a cavesson. It does not sit straight around his face, the front half dips markedly. With a flash on, the noseband then sits exactly as a grackle does, and grackles are illegal in pure dressage (but not BE) which is why I wonder whether you have ever had it commented upon.

Thankyou for your answers.
		
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Again, he has been doing dressage for 6 months, and has now done 3 Novice tests. I don't see why he needs to be very *up*? Nor why he should be? It would be completely unfair of me to ask for such an outline at this stage.

The bit is not too high. Any lower and it knocks on his teeth. Any higher and it makes him smile. It is no trick, it is a bit correctly fitted for this particular horse. Do all saddles fit the same horse?...Nope.

Flash is definitely set up how a flash is meant to be. In any case, I can find my entire hand between the crank/flash strap and his face. Without a flash strap it would sit exactly how a cavesson does. I've never had it commented on by a judge or trainer. 



cptrayes said:



			And if you read my post I am SYMPATHISING with the difficulties of training a horse who curls up, as I have one too.
		
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You are you really not coming off as sympathetic!



JFTD said:



			*stares endlessly at photos showing noseband trying to work out how it is a grackle in disguise...  wanders off looking confused*
		
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jodie :) said:



			JFDT- I'm with you on that one!
		
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I am doing that too. Going back and forth between a head shot and google images!!



Tr0uble said:



			Well...THAT didn't take long!
		
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*sniggers*



cptrayes said:



			The picture which Nikki has used is a mexican grackle. English grackles sit lower and are still illegal at BD.
		
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Oh I'm sorry. Here: http://www.englishbridles.co.uk/shop/uploads/images_products/468.jpg Still looks nothing like what Fig has on!



MollyMoomin said:



			See, I did this too and composed a PM to them both, intending to ask how & why cos I genuinely don't see a grackle disguised as a flash there either. :unsure: (I deleted it & didn't send it.)

Lovely boy. Love the last picture.

*wanders back out of thread*
		
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Me either  

I love the picture too, he wobbles his top lip when he concentrates


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## dafthoss (16 July 2012)

Having stared at the photos for quite some time trying to work out how its acting as a grackle.... all I can see is a crank nose band thats fairly loose so is being pulled down a little at the front by the flash, which isnt overly tight either.....


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## cptrayes (16 July 2012)

JFTD said:



			I am actually familiar with grackles, thanks.  I am still unsure as to how the crank (which appears loose-ish to me and does not sit like a grackle in my opinion) with flash is functioning as one.  If you can elaborate perhaps we will see the light?
		
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The whole point is that the crank is loose. If the crank were tight, and straight around his face, it would be perfectly clear that, as a cavesson, it is set ridiculously high on his face. He'd look stupid. It is the high fitting of the cavesson, with sufficient length in it to bend downward in front to meet the flash, which is making the whole set-up act as a figure of eight noseband.

The fact is that if he had two bands of equal width leather sitting exactly where that cavesson and flash are sitting, with a blob of sheepskin at the join, he'd be wearing a noseband which is not legal to compete BD.

IF the photos are representative.


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## jodie :) (16 July 2012)

Cptrayes-you aren't sympathising, you're blatantly disguising an (attack is the wrong word) but a criticism with fancy words to make it seem like you aren't having a go at nikki. I'm not saying that you can't put criticism in a forum but the way you're doing it is wrong and you have obviously offended the OP beforehand so why upset her again?! I'm no great rider but I do have my BHSAI and from photos


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## jodie :) (16 July 2012)

Stupid phone... From the photos fig looks like he's stretching onto the contact, no way working in a rollkur way. Okay his poll isn't at the highest point but this will come in time as his training progresses.


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## Bigbenji (16 July 2012)

JFTD said:



			*stares endlessly at photos showing noseband trying to work out how it is a grackle in disguise...  wanders off looking confused*
		
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This. Most people competing at BD must be doing it illeagally then  Think Carl Hester had one fitted the same on his HC program as well....

Nothing wrong with his frame Nicki, I personally would prefer a young horse to take the bit down and forward having his poll a bit low to start off with. 

Very easy to pick pictures to bits isn't it? Love to see those who are voicing their concerns riding. 

Nicki have you every ridden in the Bates extended block?


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## nikkimariet (16 July 2012)

MollyMoomin said:



			No, I've come back to this. My cob wears a cavesson which has a flash loop but has NEVER been used as a flash. Ever. It dips, considerably at the front. ( https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?....424822105457.211353.511365457&type=1&theater ) In order to have it dead straight as a cavesson 'should' be, you need to have it so tight the cob can't breathe or move her jaw. Maybe NMT's noseband is the same?
		
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JFTD said:



			I am actually familiar with grackles, thanks.  I am still unsure as to how the crank (which appears loose-ish to me and does not sit like a grackle in my opinion) with flash is functioning as one.  If you can elaborate perhaps we will see the light?
		
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Missed this bit!! Yes, Figs noseband is very very loose as he hates anything tight around his face, and I have no need or desire to control him that way!



elliefiz said:



			Am flummoxed as to how anyone would read this as cptrayes looking to post rude or abusive comments?! She quite clearly states what the question would be about. I do not agree with nasty or mean remarks to anyone whether on a forum in real life. I have not a clue what was said in the past. what I take umbrage with is someone having to ask if they can ask a question! And then being told only in private! What's the point of posting on a forum then? Just keep it to your Facebook buddies who can be deleted if you don't like what they say! 

Also NM using someone's real name on a forum is terribly bad form. Cptrayes has done absolutely nothing wrong except to ask a question, if you don't want to answer it you can ignore him/ her or even better put the user on UI so you need never have to worry about what they say again. You say you are not a teenager- well that's a childish and rude way to act, it's not the first time you have done it- I know another users real name as a result of another one of your posts. Shame on you that's really terrible forum etiquette.
		
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Perhaps you had better read through her past posts and find the incredibly insensitive post we both refer to?

Sorry, force of habit to call someone their proper name if I know it!! I've done it by accident a few times, realised and felt quite bad about it 



dafthoss said:



			Having stared at the photos for quite some time trying to work out how its acting as a grackle.... all I can see is a crank nose band thats fairly loose so is being pulled down a little at the front by the flash, which isnt overly tight either.....
		
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*nods*


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## cptrayes (16 July 2012)

Bigbenji said:



			Nothing wrong with his frame Nicki, I personally would prefer a young horse to take the bit down and forward having his poll a bit low to start off with.
		
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Can you tell me how you would describe those photos as "taking the bit forward"? Down, for sure. Forward, if the photos are representative, no way.  My trainer will not allow me to ride my horse of similar age and level in that outline. I am keen to understand why other trainers do, and who is right, if either. Maybe it's just "different".  But worth discussing, surely, on an open forum?


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## cptrayes (16 July 2012)

nikkimariet said:



			Missed this bit!! Yes, Figs noseband is very very loose as he hates anything tight around his face, and I have no need or desire to control him that way!
		
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If this is the case, why do you ride him in a flash?


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## JFTDWS (16 July 2012)

cptrayes said:



			The whole point is that the crank is loose. If the crank were tight, and straight around his face, it would be perfectly clear that, as a cavesson, it is set ridiculously high on his face. He'd look stupid. It is the high fitting of the cavesson, with sufficient length in it to bend downward in front to meet the flash, which is making the whole set-up act as a figure of eight noseband.

The fact is that if he had two bands of equal width leather sitting exactly where that cavesson and flash are sitting, with a blob of sheepskin at the join, he'd be wearing a noseband which is not legal to compete BD.

IF the photos are representative.
		
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Then I fear we'll have to agree to disagree - the cavesson looks appropriately placed relatively to his bit (which I imagine is placed appropriately relative to his inner mouth conformation which I cannot see in a photo, obviously) and his face.  The slight dipping you refer to is due to the flash, and is not on a level with the angles and style provided by a grackle noseband so far as I can see.  Since both crank and flash are relatively loose (looser than a correctly fitted grackle) I fail to see how the function of a grackle can be provided by the set up.  Furthermore, the action of a crank and flash, even if fitted as you say, would not in my opinion mimic a figure of eight noseband, due to the different pressures and movement provided.  

The more I think it through, the less I see your point.


btw, nmt, the crank being loose was not a criticism - quite the opposite, in fact.


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## MillionDollar (16 July 2012)

cptrayes.........what exactly is your problem? Have you nothing better to do than to criticise!  

Jeez, his noseband is fine (look at pics of Valegro in a snaffle bridle, think you'll find it's the same!), he is not overbent......I would much rather he was slightly (slightly, as he's not more than that) BTV than doing a giraffe impression and I think you'll find in tests (as I've seen in pics) he's never BTV, and if he is, why he has done absolutely AMAZINGLY for an ex-racer, especially for one who has only been reschooled for 6 or so months. Are all the BD judges that have judged him wrong?

Take a look at your own horse(s) and get them going perfectly with their perfectly fitting tack.

I don't normally care about CC good or bad, but you seriously have some kind of issue..... GET OVER IT!.............and get a life!


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## cptrayes (16 July 2012)

Bigbenji said:



			Very easy to pick pictures to bits isn't it? Love to see those who are voicing their concerns riding.
		
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That'd be me then ?

So no-one who cannot ride better than the person whose riding they are looking at can possibly say anything of value, even in innocent ignorance? Never heard the expression "out of the mouths of babes"  ?

1. There are plenty of photos of me riding on this forum. So many that other people have told me that they are sick of them 

2. I keep my personal training diary on my blog, which is currently open access. I accept constructive criticism and edit anyone who is rude. If Nikki does not want this kind of analysis then a public forum is not the place to keep a blog.


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## Lolo (16 July 2012)

cptrayes said:



			If this is the case, why do you ride him in a flash?
		
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I know Reg has a loose flash on as he finds it comforting- it does virtually nothing unless he really starts yaw-ing on the bit. But he goes a lot better with it on, and we think it's because he finds it 'normal' to him and what he's used to. Could be an ex-racer thing...


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## ArcticFox (16 July 2012)

Cannot comment on anything dressagy as this is not my area of speciality!  Now if you put photees of you jumping Mr Fig, then maybe I could give an opinion  - although I would still say that I can't see how your flash noseband looks anything like a grackle!

My boy currently jumps in a grackle as he crosses his jaw and for dressage wears a cavesson/flash - now if I could make the cavesson/flash act like a grackle that would be very useful indeed 

anyway, I think that for a horse who only came out of training a few months ago, you've done a brill job with him.


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## Tempi (16 July 2012)

nikkimariet said:



			Missed this bit!! Yes, Figs noseband is very very loose as he hates anything tight around his face, and I have no need or desire to control him that way!
		
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If he doesnt like anything tight around his face have you tried him in a loose drop noseband?  Then you wouldnt have to have the cavesson around his nose and the loose drop would be more comfortable for him?


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## cptrayes (16 July 2012)

MillionDollar said:



			cptrayes.........what exactly is your problem? Have you nothing better to do than to criticise!
		
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Do you not think that we learn by discussion? Do you want every naive novice rider to think that you get Nikki's great scores by training your horse constantly overbent ( I know that the photos are a snapshot in time and he is NOT constantly overbent, but there is no way a novice would realise that)




MillionDollar said:



			Jeez, his noseband is fine (look at pics of Valegro in a snaffle bridle, think you'll find it's the same!), he is not overbent......I would much rather he was slightly (slightly, as he's not more than that) BTV than doing a giraffe impression and I think you'll find in tests (as I've seen in pics) he's never BTV, and if he is, why he has done absolutely AMAZINGLY for an ex-racer, especially for one who has only been reschooled for 6 or so months. Are all the BD judges that have judged him wrong?
		
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Is it impossible to learn from training pictures that someone puts up just because they have undeniably great results? Why are the two exclusive?   

I hate the way many top riders bit their horses so high their faces are split in two. I have done a thread about it before. Just because people are at the top does not necessarily make their training right, as all the threads on rollkur and draw reins show.




MillionDollar said:



			Take a look at your own horse(s) and get them going perfectly with their perfectly fitting tack.
		
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I have not put my blog on this forum where freedom of speech is the rule. Nikki has. If she does not want comments and questions she should blog where she has total control of what people write. 




MillionDollar said:



			I don't normally care about CC good or bad, but you seriously have some kind of issue..... GET OVER IT!.............and get a life!
		
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It's raining too hard.


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## Sarah1 (16 July 2012)

I can actually see what cptrayes means about the noseband sitting quite high on Figs face, however, when you look at it in comparison to the bit it's absolutely fine AND if you look closely at the bit it's actually sat in his mouth ok and as NMT said any higher and he'd be smiling, any lower & it would be too low.  Looks to me that Fig has a very beautiful albeit very long mouth! 
As for riding him more 'up' I can't comment as I'm no dressage diva but having seen my YM ride numerous horses he would most definately be riding Fig in a similar frame until he was a bit stronger & he's probably the best rider I've seen and is fantastice at producing young horses.
Cptrayes - it definately does appear that you have a problem with NMT, I suggest that in future you just don't comment on her posts and vice versa & basically just leave each other alone!  And yes I understand it's a public forum but you're doing yourself no favours...
ETA - look at Figs ears - he's loving it so what's the problem...?!


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## Bigbenji (16 July 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Can you tell me how you would describe those photos as "taking the bit forward"? Down, for sure. Forward, if the photos are representative, no way.  My trainer will not allow me to ride my horse of similar age and level in that outline. I am keen to understand why other trainers do, and who is right, if either. Maybe it's just "different".  But worth discussing, surely, on an open forum?
		
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Taking the bit down and going forwards, basically moving into his contact rather than backing away. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
My point was that at figs level his frame is, to me, correct. He seems nice and relaxed whilst working which is, in effect, his second carear. Just my thoughts on what I see in the pictures tho! 

Cptrayes what frame would you like to see fig working in? Maybe explain what you would like to see and offer some tips as to how you would produce fig?


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## ihatework (16 July 2012)

I completely understand the need to question things!

Won't comment on the overbent thing, not really worth it.

As for the fitting of the bridle / bit. I'm really not sure how CPTrayes can say bit is too high and noseband acts like a grackle. From those pictures it is not clear at all to me.

Fig seems to have a fairly long narrow face, especially from point of cheek down, I think you would need to see the bit fitting in the flesh before passing comment, but it doesn't scream too high to me.

The noseband, well it is very chunky for a fine head, optically I don't think it looks right and could possibly go down 1 hole but to compare to a grackle ... hmm stretching the imagination there I think.


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## Polotash (16 July 2012)

Sarah1 said:



			I can actually see what cptrayes means about the noseband sitting quite high on Figs face, however, when you look at it in comparison to the bit it's absolutely fine AND if you look closely at the bit it's actually sat in his mouth ok and as NMT said any higher and he'd be smiling, any lower & it would be too low.  Looks to me that Fig has a very beautiful albeit very long mouth! 
As for riding him more 'up' I can't comment as I'm no dressage diva but having seen my YM ride numerous horses he would most definately be riding Fig in a similar frame until he was a bit stronger & he's probably the best rider I've seen and is fantastice at producing young horses.
Cptrayes - it definately does appear that you have a problem with NMT, I suggest that in future you just don't comment on her posts and vice versa & basically just leave each other alone!  And yes I understand it's a public forum but you're doing yourself no favours...
		
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Totally agree - with all three points!

Yes the noseband and bit do look high at first glance, but on second look it all fits his facial conformation. Once he moves into a double his noseband willhave to be that high to avoid the bits anyway - I have this with my big warmblood.

WRT to his outline it looks fine to me, those of you competing at BD will know judges like them very round and Fig is certainly not overbent. Apart from anything else, you can see he is happy in his work and his rider sits very nicely, so really there is no need to comment on his way of going.

Cptrayes, yes you do see to have a bee in your bonnet. If your interest in the OP is unwelcome, why persist? Plenty of people ask for CC so why not direct your comments there...


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## cptrayes (16 July 2012)

I did not say the bit was too high. I cannot say that because I do not know the horse.

I queried that it LOOKS very high and was hoping for a rational explanation. 

There are idiots who read this forum. There really are people who would look at NM's success and go out and wrench their horses bits up to where Fig's is when they don't have a mouth as long as he does. THAT's why I asked, so we can discuss it and learn from it.


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## Polotash (16 July 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I did not say the bit was too high. I cannot say that because I do not know the horse.


There are idiots who read this forum. There really are people who would look at NM's success and go out and wrench their horses bits up to where Fig's is when they don't have a mouth as long as he does.
		
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Really???! If there are people so stupid as to blindly copy photos then they'll do stupid things with or without the OP's photo's to follow, since there are MILLIONS of pics on the internet of people doing various odd things with their horses!


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## cptrayes (16 July 2012)

Bigbenji said:



			Taking the bit down and going forwards, basically moving into his contact rather than backing away. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
My point was that at figs level his frame is, to me, correct. He seems nice and relaxed whilst working which is, in effect, his second carear. Just my thoughts on what I see in the pictures tho! 

Cptrayes what frame would you like to see fig working in? Maybe explain what you would like to see and offer some tips as to how you would produce fig?
		
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I would like to see his nose in front of the verticle definitely and his poll the highest point preferably.

If Nikki is remotely interested in how I would achieve that I would be happy to tell her.

I am completely baffled by other posters who say he is not overbent. Unless the photos are misleading, his face is behind the verticle in every one of them, and that is the very definition of overbent, usually accompanied by a neck where the poll is not the highest point. 


I'm reading a great book by Phillipe Karl at the moment called "Twisted truths of modern dressage" which has a full analysis of overbending and is very criticial of how many elite horses are being highely scored while overbent, completely against the rules laid down for a GP horse.


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## cptrayes (16 July 2012)

Polotash said:



			Really???! If there are people so stupid as to blindly copy photos then they'll do stupid things with or without the OP's photo's to follow, since there are MILLIONS of pics on the internet of people doing various odd things with their horses!
		
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Does that mean we should not comment and ask question when someone repeatedly puts their horse up on a public forum as a shining example of training and success? They have been phenomenally successful. Why is it wrong to analyse how they achieve that success?

One of my horses is a brilliant barefoot hunter and I regularly use him as an example on this forum. I fully expect, and get, questions, sometimes quite hostile, about whether it is right to manage him the way that I do. I see no problem with that.


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## Polotash (16 July 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Does that mean we should not comment and ask question when someone repeatedly puts their horse up on a public forum as a shining example of training and success? They have been phenomenally succesful. Why is it wrong to analyse how they achieve that success?
		
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You aren't "analysing" though are you?


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## JFTDWS (16 July 2012)

Polotash said:



			Really???! If there are people so stupid as to blindly copy photos then they'll do stupid things with or without the OP's photo's to follow, since there are MILLIONS of pics on the internet of people doing various odd things with their horses!
		
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If I wanted to put my pony's bit to appear outwardly to be that high in his mouth I would have to haul it through the tops of his lips and balance it on top of his back teeth.  I would hope at some point during this it would occur to me that this wasn't the best idea, regardless of any comments on a forum


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## MrsMozart (16 July 2012)

From what I've seen, it seems to be the norm that flash nosebands are fitted so that the cavesson drops low at the front, the net effect being that they look like a grakle and no doubt have pretty much the same effect as a grakle. I'm thinking that as it is still the two parts and it is now so common, that judges are not considering it to be in violation.

I know little about dressage, being a beginner in this arena, so cannot really comment further, other than to say the Dizz over-curls and I would have been interested to read how others, including NM, cure this. My instructor is working us long and low and encouraging self head carrriage, which seems to be working, but I'm interested in how others do it, it's part of the reason I still come on here.


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## MillionDollar (16 July 2012)

Oh cptrayes.........you're just soooooooo perfect! You obviously never do anything wrong and most of us, and even top riders, are training our horses wrongly because YOU say it's wrong. EVERYONE has different training techniques and ways of fitting tack. EVERYONE has different opinions and views. Therefore, in my view, and others, there is nothing wrong with the way NMT is training her horse and he is obviously quite happy with the way his tack fits/looks. If you think differently fine, but just leave it now. You've expressed your opinions so just leave it at that and stop going on and on.


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## cptrayes (16 July 2012)

Polotash said:



			You aren't "analysing" though are you?
		
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I thought those of us who were having a serious exchange of views were yes. There have been some good counter points made.

There are of course a bunch of juvenile reactions from people who think I am somehow "out to get" Nikki, which is ridiculous. I don't know her and I am not interested in "getting at her", only in discussion how her horse is working for her.


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## KPM (16 July 2012)

There is a whole lot more to riding, schooling and competing a young horse than the neck position though, Cptrayes...Surely it is far preferred to see a horse in the early stages of training, working over the back with an active hind end, even if that means they go deep in front, than to see the oh so common trailing hocks and tight back?  

Of course the ideal is to have a horse poll high AND active behind, but who here lives in an ideal world, so we have to ride the horse we are sat on to the best of our abilities?!

Don't think i have ever commented on your pics before NikkiMT, but he is really looking strong and happy with the work - well done!


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## cptrayes (16 July 2012)

MillionDollar said:



			Oh cptrayes.........you're just soooooooo perfect! You obviously never do anything wrong and most of us, and even top riders, are training our horses wrongly because YOU say it's wrong. EVERYONE has different training techniques and ways of fitting tack. EVERYONE has different opinions and views. Therefore, in my view, and others, there is nothing wrong with the way NMT is training her horse and he is obviously quite happy with the way his tack fits/looks. If you think differently fine, but just leave it now. You've expressed your opinions so just leave it at that and stop going on and on.
		
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Why the sarcasm?

Yes, everyone has different views, but somehow that does not apply to me being able to comment about Fig? Seems a bit unfair to me


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## ihatework (16 July 2012)

But surely dressage is a journey of training. FWIW I do think Fig is a bit overbent, but given his age, stage of training and racing history I think it's perfectly acceptable/understandable for the short term.

For me the priority bould be an active hind end and starting towards working over the back. As Figs confidence, balance and strength improves then he should be able to reach up and forwards more to the contact.

Just need to keep piecing together bit's of the jigsaw.


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## JVB (16 July 2012)

Wasn't going to get involved but this seems again very much like how something is written, is very often not how it is interpreted.

I am all for open discussion but I would say that reading through most of your comments, Cptrayes, they do come across in a negative way. This may not be how you mean them of course but it may be worth looking at your wording.

It would seem from the offset, you were making criticisms before asking questions. If you are interested in bitting and where the noseband sits it may have been worth asking about what bit is used, have any other worked differently. Have you used any other nosebands and how have these worked? etc etc before posting your own comments on what actually is being used and what you think of it.

If you were to share your own examples while asking these sorts of questions then much of this thread could have been avoided...

Just a thought


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## cptrayes (16 July 2012)

KPM said:



			There is a whole lot more to riding, schooling and competing a young horse than the neck position though, Cptrayes...Surely it is far preferred to see a horse in the early stages of training, working over the back with an active hind end, even if that means they go deep in front, than to see the oh so common trailing hocks and tight back?  

Of course the ideal is to have a horse poll high AND active behind, but who here lives in an ideal world, so we have to ride the horse we are sat on to the best of our abilities?!

Don't think i have ever commented on your pics before NikkiMT, but he is really looking strong and happy with the work - well done!
		
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The Karl book is fascinating on this subject. If I have read it properly, then his answer to you would be that the horse should not be allowed to work overbent because the back end is never truly working properly because the shoulders are weighted by the overbend.  He actually makes particular reference to the fact that we have to train imperfect horses and that the German "bible" of training starts from the assumption of talented horses. Well worth the money if anyone is thinking of buying it. 


I particularly asked the question because I was sure that I hadn't seen Fig overbent in pictures of his tests. I know that there are an awful lot of trainers going to the absolute top level using persistent overbending as a training technique. I was genuinely interested to find out if Nikki got her brilliant results that way, or if she got them in spite of him being a natural curler like my own dressage horse. Since it's the latter, she is to be congratulated on how she is training him to produce the results he gets.


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## Louise_88 (16 July 2012)

KPM said:



			There is a whole lot more to riding, schooling and competing a young horse than the neck position though, Cptrayes...Surely it is far preferred to see a horse in the early stages of training, working over the back with an active hind end, even if that means they go deep in front, than to see the oh so common trailing hocks and tight back?  

Of course the ideal is to have a horse poll high AND active behind, but who here lives in an ideal world, so we have to ride the horse we are sat on to the best of our abilities?!

Don't think i have ever commented on your pics before NikkiMT, but he is really looking strong and happy with the work - well done!
		
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Couldn't agree more!


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## monkeybum13 (16 July 2012)

Not going to get involved with any of the tittle tattle because its just ridiculous but NMT, he looks better and better in every set of photos you post of him. Well done on the placings, he's just lovely


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## 4faults (16 July 2012)

Nikki Fig is looking really good. Its nice to see him so filled out and muscled up. He looks like hes happy in his work and really starting to take you forward and swing through. Your doing a lovely job.

You have instructors and people who see you and him in the flesh to comment and offer guidance, they will have a much more realistic idea of what you both need so I would pay more attention to them than anyone who is trying to pull things apart from a few pictures online.


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## Alfami (16 July 2012)

Lordy!  I read your report yesterday and thought 'how sweet, must get around to replying to say well done'.  Came back today and it's all gone t**s up!

If I were you, I'd take it as a compliment - at least people are taking an interest! 

I have no intention of commenting one way or the other - I may not always agree entirely with what you and Prince33Sp4rkle get up to, but they both look like contented, well cared for horses, whose 'journey' I have enjoyed following.  The openess of your posts is well received by most; a lot of us wouldn't be brave enough.

Keep posting, Fig's doing great


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## Ferdinase514 (16 July 2012)

OMG...what the hell has happened to this post. 

I'm going to have to trawl back through all 10 pages now instead of riding in the rain :eek

Ok trawled through and my opinion....

CP *whatever your name is* Who bloody cares about the neck/bit/noseband. Just dont read the posts if you dont like them.....at the moment you just sound like someone who has it in for NMT.


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## TheSylv007 (16 July 2012)

I always enjoy these reports and think that CC should be given only if requested (or there is some enormous howler being committed).  It's very irritating when people make comments which are designed to be inflammatory and nit picking under the guise of free speech and healthy debate, then get affronted when the OP recognises the intent (as I understand there is previous form between the posters) and calls them on it.  

Its all very well saying that if you don't like it then don't post but by that logic if you don't like the OP, don't read their posts or waste your time commenting on them.

I don't normally get into these things but this one has annoyed me!


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## TheSylv007 (16 July 2012)

and that will probably be the end of it as whenever I contribute to a thread its the kiss of death and nobody responds!  *weeps*


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## MrsMozart (16 July 2012)

Here y'go TheSylv007 m'duck, have a response 

I've read it all, the angst bit in the middle aside, as being questions rather than cc. Questions as to why things are done/are and reasonging behind why someone would think differently.

I've found it quite interesting and am off to find the book referenced


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## nikkimariet (16 July 2012)

Bigbenji said:



			This. Most people competing at BD must be doing it illeagally then  Think Carl Hester had one fitted the same on his HC program as well....

Nothing wrong with his frame Nicki, I personally would prefer a young horse to take the bit down and forward having his poll a bit low to start off with. 

Very easy to pick pictures to bits isn't it? Love to see those who are voicing their concerns riding. 

Nicki have you every ridden in the Bates extended block?
		
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Lol!!

I find this is the best way to get him stretching and swinging, working into a contact and giving me a kick up the arse as he pushes off from behind 

Never ridden in one, but sat in one, and read a bit about the feel they give you - apparently they really suck you in and hold you. That's not a feeling I like (or is comfortable due to arthritis), hence the standard blocks.



cptrayes said:



			If this is the case, why do you ride him in a flash?
		
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No noseband = BD illegal. He didn't like a plain cavesson. Found he set his neck in a drop. A loose flash prevents him from getting his chomp on when he gets nervous/excited.



JFTD said:



			Then I fear we'll have to agree to disagree - the cavesson looks appropriately placed relatively to his bit (which I imagine is placed appropriately relative to his inner mouth conformation which I cannot see in a photo, obviously) and his face.  The slight dipping you refer to is due to the flash, and is not on a level with the angles and style provided by a grackle noseband so far as I can see.  Since both crank and flash are relatively loose (looser than a correctly fitted grackle) I fail to see how the function of a grackle can be provided by the set up.  Furthermore, the action of a crank and flash, even if fitted as you say, would not in my opinion mimic a figure of eight noseband, due to the different pressures and movement provided.  

The more I think it through, the less I see your point.


btw, nmt, the crank being loose was not a criticism - quite the opposite, in fact.
		
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Hahaaaaa!! If you could make a flash and a grackle do the same thing, there wouldn't be separate pieces of tack 

Quite alright, I didn't see it as one 



MillionDollar said:



			Are all the BD judges that have judged him wrong?
		
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Well...you never know. I haven't bought any matchy in a while, so maybe I'm paying them off with all my spare cash?!



Lolo said:



			I know Reg has a loose flash on as he finds it comforting- it does virtually nothing unless he really starts yaw-ing on the bit. But he goes a lot better with it on, and we think it's because he finds it 'normal' to him and what he's used to. Could be an ex-racer thing...
		
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Could well be a safety net for them of some sorts? They have clever, but strange brains, so who knows!



ArcticFox said:



			Cannot comment on anything dressagy as this is not my area of speciality!  Now if you put photees of you jumping Mr Fig, then maybe I could give an opinion  - although I would still say that I can't see how your flash noseband looks anything like a grackle!

My boy currently jumps in a grackle as he crosses his jaw and for dressage wears a cavesson/flash - now if I could make the cavesson/flash act like a grackle that would be very useful indeed 

anyway, I think that for a horse who only came out of training a few months ago, you've done a brill job with him. 

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Jumping coming up! Have done some poles with him and we can do walk and trotting over them sensibly. We can do cavaletti! Cantering near them resulted in leaping so will take it slowly. Will get stuck in after Regionals though, don't want him to be silly in the school before!

And thank you - he has really surprised me with his eagerness to learn :wub:



Tempi said:



			If he doesnt like anything tight around his face have you tried him in a loose drop noseband?  Then you wouldnt have to have the cavesson around his nose and the loose drop would be more comfortable for him?
		
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He was very still in the mouth (hardly salivated at all) and very very set in the neck when I tried him in a drop. Swapped him back to loose flash in the same session and had normal happy go lucky Fig back 



Sarah1 said:



			I can actually see what cptrayes means about the noseband sitting quite high on Figs face, however, when you look at it in comparison to the bit it's absolutely fine AND if you look closely at the bit it's actually sat in his mouth ok and as NMT said any higher and he'd be smiling, any lower & it would be too low.  Looks to me that Fig has a very beautiful albeit very long mouth! 
As for riding him more 'up' I can't comment as I'm no dressage diva but having seen my YM ride numerous horses he would most definately be riding Fig in a similar frame until he was a bit stronger & he's probably the best rider I've seen and is fantastice at producing young horses.
Cptrayes - it definately does appear that you have a problem with NMT, I suggest that in future you just don't comment on her posts and vice versa & basically just leave each other alone!  And yes I understand it's a public forum but you're doing yourself no favours...
ETA - look at Figs ears - he's loving it so what's the problem...?! 

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I have one brilliant close up headshot that displays how his bit/noseband sits when relaxed, but it's a pro one, so daren't post it  He does indeed have a long thin face, his bottom teeth run quite high up, hence the placement of the bit. I've tried riding with it lower, and he tucked his head up his bum and didn't want to know!

He does have very happy ears, makes me laugh how he tries to concentrate on what his feet are doing *and* look at the camera at the same time 



ihatework said:



			I completely understand the need to question things!

Won't comment on the overbent thing, not really worth it.

As for the fitting of the bridle / bit. I'm really not sure how CPTrayes can say bit is too high and noseband acts like a grackle. From those pictures it is not clear at all to me.

Fig seems to have a fairly long narrow face, especially from point of cheek down, I think you would need to see the bit fitting in the flesh before passing comment, but it doesn't scream too high to me.

The noseband, well it is very chunky for a fine head, optically I don't think it looks right and could possibly go down 1 hole but to compare to a grackle ... hmm stretching the imagination there I think.
		
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Questioning is fine, but I don't think the agenda was entirely innocent....

I'm glad it's not just me that thinks the comparison is bizzare!


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## nikkimariet (16 July 2012)

Polotash said:



			Totally agree - with all three points!

Yes the noseband and bit do look high at first glance, but on second look it all fits his facial conformation. Once he moves into a double his noseband willhave to be that high to avoid the bits anyway - I have this with my big warmblood.

WRT to his outline it looks fine to me, those of you competing at BD will know judges like them very round and Fig is certainly not overbent. Apart from anything else, you can see he is happy in his work and his rider sits very nicely, so really there is no need to comment on his way of going.

Cptrayes, yes you do see to have a bee in your bonnet. If your interest in the OP is unwelcome, why persist? Plenty of people ask for CC so why not direct your comments there...
		
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 double bridle days!

He's not strong enough to hold a consistently 'up' outline, if I asked for it, I would have a tired peed off horse who doesn't trust me. Baby steps....baby steps....

What's next I wonder, my bandages are too tight? His saddlepad is making him sore?... 



cptrayes said:



			I did not say the bit was too high. I cannot say that because I do not know the horse.

I queried that it LOOKS very high and was hoping for a rational explanation.
		
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You told me the bit *is* very very high and that you couldn't help but wonder if that is it really comfortable for him? (direct quote from your PM, not your shortened public version.) That would be too high. If something isn't comfortable, there's too much of that something. I gave you a rational explanation, but it doesn't suffice 



cptrayes said:



			If Nikki is remotely interested in how I would achieve that I would be happy to tell her
		
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Rhetorical question?



Polotash said:



			You aren't "analysing" though are you?
		
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Again, glad someone else is reading between the lines of this analysis. Which is apparently for everyone elses benefit.



KPM said:



			There is a whole lot more to riding, schooling and competing a young horse than the neck position though, Cptrayes...Surely it is far preferred to see a horse in the early stages of training, working over the back with an active hind end, even if that means they go deep in front, than to see the oh so common trailing hocks and tight back?  

Of course the ideal is to have a horse poll high AND active behind, but who here lives in an ideal world, so we have to ride the horse we are sat on to the best of our abilities?!

Don't think i have ever commented on your pics before NikkiMT, but he is really looking strong and happy with the work - well done!
		
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I'm actually working on warming him up slightly differently - round yes, but not as deep as the early days, to encourage him to sit on his hocks earlier on in the session - so as to avoid big front leg/no back end power syndrome - great minds think alike!

Oh I wish schooling the everyday horse up through the levels was that easy...!

And thank you  He feels very happy and established at the moment!



ihatework said:



			But surely dressage is a journey of training. FWIW I do think Fig is a bit overbent, but given his age, stage of training and racing history I think it's perfectly acceptable/understandable for the short term.

For me the priority bould be an active hind end and starting towards working over the back. As Figs confidence, balance and strength improves then he should be able to reach up and forwards more to the contact.

Just need to keep piecing together bit's of the jigsaw.
		
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I quite agree, at times he is, but as you've said - very acceptable for age/background/level of training.

*nods* this is exactly where I'm at now. Just starting to tweak the warm up to get him there.



monkeybum13 said:



			Not going to get involved with any of the tittle tattle because its just ridiculous but NMT, he looks better and better in every set of photos you post of him. Well done on the placings, he's just lovely 

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 thanks MB13, my little TB is starting to look like a proper horse!



4faults said:



			Nikki Fig is looking really good. Its nice to see him so filled out and muscled up. He looks like hes happy in his work and really starting to take you forward and swing through. Your doing a lovely job.

You have instructors and people who see you and him in the flesh to comment and offer guidance, they will have a much more realistic idea of what you both need so I would pay more attention to them than anyone who is trying to pull things apart from a few pictures online.
		
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Aw thanks 4f. I am so glad I don't have to look at his ribs any more, he arrived in such a sorry state.

Well, what I need is a big glass of wine now!



Alfami said:



  Lordy!  I read your report yesterday and thought 'how sweet, must get around to replying to say well done'.  Came back today and it's all gone t**s up!

If I were you, I'd take it as a compliment - at least people are taking an interest! 

I have no intention of commenting one way or the other - I may not always agree entirely with what you and Prince33Sp4rkle get up to, but they both look like contented, well cared for horses, whose 'journey' I have enjoyed following.  The openess of your posts is well received by most; a lot of us wouldn't be brave enough.

Keep posting, Fig's doing great 

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Haha!!! That's what happens when you blink 

I try and include the bad bits and wobbles to make it realistic - because that's how it is, that's life!

Thanks :cheesygrin:



FinnMcCoul said:



			OMG...what the hell has happened to this post. 

I'm going to have to trawl back through all 10 pages now instead of riding in the rain :eek

Ok trawled through and my opinion....

CP *whatever your name is* Who bloody cares about the neck/bit/noseband. Just dont read the posts if you dont like them.....at the moment you just sound like someone who has it in for NMT.
		
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Wahahaha sorry FMC, I do hope I didn't distract you from riding in the rain for too long...!



TheSylv007 said:



			It's very irritating when people make comments which are designed to be inflammatory and nit picking under the guise of free speech and healthy debate, then get affronted when the OP recognises the intent (as I understand there is previous form between the posters) and calls them on it.
		
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Spot on!



TheSylv007 said:



			and that will probably be the end of it as whenever I contribute to a thread its the kiss of death and nobody responds!  *weeps*
		
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Here, have 2 comments from me and Mrs M


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## cptrayes (16 July 2012)

Nikki you and other people's posts make it sound as if I have some kind of vendetta against you. I do not. I do not know you. 

Our exchanges have been limited to three things.

1. On another thread, you criticised a mare in a photo that someone was asking whether they should go and see and said that she was badly made and her back far too long. You put photos of Fig up as an example of a much better horse. I disagreed with you that he was a much better horse and said that I would prefer a longer backed horse like the mare to a shorter backed horse like Fig. My recollection of that exchange is that you got really annoyed at my comments even though you had directly put Fig up as a comparison. As far as I was concerned, that exchange was over and done with.

2. I made a comment later on another thread that many people thought I was wrong to do, but I was not rude and it was out of genuine concern for both you and other girls of your age. I accept that lots of people think it was wrong to have posted, but I did it with a lot of thought and I am prepared to stand by my actions on that, even though I am sorry if it did genuinely offend you.

3. My questions on this thread, which were at all times polite and were genuine questions. All I wanted was to hear your answers. You have chosen to take offence and have been quite rude in return, when all you needed to do was answer three perfectly straightforward and reasonable comments.

I have no vendetta against you; as I say, I do not know you.  I would have asked the same questions about anyone who posted as many photos and competition results as you do with things that intrigue me like yours did.  I do not see what is unreasonable about politely asking questions on a public forum. All you had to do was give a straightforward answer to my PM (or ignore the original post) but YOU chose to escalate to accusing me of being rude to you in private, so I was obliged to go public to show that I had not been. 

There are plenty of places you could blog with total  control over what comments you get if you want that. You can't expect it on a public forum in a country that believes in free speech, sorry.


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## Ferdinase514 (16 July 2012)

I now I have ridden in the rain I can rant about the *neck* debate.

It is far better training wise to ride a horse in different neck positions and riding with the neck longer in the way NMT is, is aiming at developing suppleness over the back - I dont really see what the problem is. Varying the neck position is a good idea training wise.


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## luckyhorseshoe (16 July 2012)

Cptrayes - whatever your name is.

The issue that I have with your questioning is the way in which you have done it - before you even asked the question, you were insighting negativity.

If you'd worded your questions on bits/nosebands


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## luckyhorseshoe (16 July 2012)

Cptrayes -

The issue that I have with your questioning (and tbh alot of others who have started debates on NMT and PS's posts) is the way in which you have done it - before you even asked the question, you were insighting negativity.

If you'd worded your questions on bits/nosebands better you wouldn't have had the response from NMT and others like you have.

Most of the meaning of words come from tone and body language, since on forums we dont have the benefit of body language a lot of emphasis is placed on tone. Therefore, I think you need to consider your questioning style. 

Whatever you think of both the sparkle sisters, you and others, cannot take away the hard work they have put into their horses, whom not bred for dressage are successfully competing against the dumb bloods.


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## luckyhorseshoe (16 July 2012)

Oh and fwiw my experience of both sparkle sisters has been nothing but lovely. Both have answered any questions ive had and offered me thoughts and advice on my mare. Whilst I have a great trainer, I really value objective thoughts and training tips that we haven't tried/thought of.


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## nikkimariet (16 July 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Nikki you and other people's posts make it sound as if I have some kind of vendetta against you. I do not. I do not know you. 

Our exchanges have been limited to three things.

1. On another thread, you criticised a mare in a photo that someone was asking whether they should go and see and said that she was badly made and her back far too long. You put photos of Fig up as an example of a much better horse. I disagreed with you that he was a much better horse and said that I would prefer a longer backed horse like the mare to a shorter backed horse like Fig. My recollection of that exchange is that you got really annoyed at my comments even though you had directly put Fig up as a comparison. As far as I was concerned, that exchange was over and done with.

2. I made a comment later on another thread that many people thought I was wrong to do, but I was not rude and it was out of genuine concern for both you and other girls of your age. I accept that lots of people think it was wrong to have posted, but I did it with a lot of thought and I am prepared to stand by my actions on that, even though I am sorry if it did genuinely offend you.

3. My questions on this thread, which were at all times polite and were genuine questions. All I wanted was to hear your answers. You have chosen to take offence and have been quite rude in return, when all you needed to do was answer three perfectly straightforward and reasonable comments.

I have no vendetta against you; as I say, I do not know you.  I would have asked the same questions about anyone who posted as many photos and competition results as you do with things that intrigue me like yours did.  I do not see what is unreasonable about politely asking questions on a public forum. All you had to do was give a straightforward answer to my PM (or ignore the original post) but YOU chose to escalate to accusing me of being rude to you in private, so I was obliged to go public to show that I had not been. 

There are plenty of places you could blog with total  control over what comments you get if you want that. You can't expect it on a public forum in a country that believes in free speech, sorry.
		
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Cptrayes, it is your posts alone that makes it appear you have a vendetta against me.

1. Since the thread was pulled, I can't directly quote you. But, you said Fig was *so* short in the back he *would* get kissing spines... FYI, I never said he *was* a better horse, I said for *me* he was (for me!), and is what I look for and like in a horse and provided a picture to reference my thoughts on a thread that asked what the public opinion of a horse for sale was. Done and dusted.

2. There isn't a genuine comment you've made except the one about not knowing me! You openly stated that I look like I have an eating disorder. That is not a comment made out of concern, that is a comment made out of god only knows. And as I said at the time, and will do now, if you were really concerned, you would have PM'd. And to repeat your own words, you don't know me - what if I was ill? How even more hugely and insanely insensitive would that well thought out action of yours been? Also, the fact that many people thought you were wrong to say that, kind of says it all... Done and dusted.

3. Yes....rude by return....there's a clue in that. You have insistently and bizarrely conjured up issues with the way my horse is tacked - you wanted answers, I gave detailed explanations. Then you back track - 'I didn't say the bit was too high, I just said it looked it' Same thing. You actually asked if you could ask questions that would get you accused of raining on my parade. Which, by the way, is akin to saying 'I don't mean to offend you...but....' and then saying the most offensive thing ever. Done and dusted.

"People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid"

Let us limit our exchanges further CPT.


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## nikkimariet (16 July 2012)

FinnMcCoul said:



			I now I have ridden in the rain I can rant about the *neck* debate.

It is far better training wise to ride a horse in different neck positions and riding with the neck longer in the way NMT is, is aiming at developing suppleness over the back - I dont really see what the problem is. Varying the neck position is a good idea training wise.
		
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Was it fun? 

I couldn't imagine riding without neck control - how can you ride a correct leg yield and progress to a correct HP without being able to manipulate the neck? What about when the neck comes out slightly in extensions? And the poll comes up in the piaffe? If you have one single set head carriage for your horse, then IMO, you have a lot of training problems.



luckyhorseshoe said:



			The issue that I have with your questioning (and tbh alot of others who have started debates on NMT and PS's posts) is the way in which you have done it - before you even asked the question, you were insighting negativity.
		
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I think it's only fair to react as invited. It's human defense mechanism 101.



luckyhorseshoe said:



			Oh and fwiw my experience of both sparkle sisters has been nothing but lovely. Both have answered any questions ive had and offered me thoughts and advice on my mare. Whilst I have a great trainer, I really value objective thoughts and training tips that we haven't tried/thought of.
		
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I'm glad we've helped and you've got even a teeny bit of something useful out of my blabbered thoughts!!


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## luckyhorseshoe (16 July 2012)

NMT - regarding your post above (can't quote as on phone) I meant that cptrayes was insighting negativity with her questioning style. So totally agree with you using your defence mechanism. Didn't mean that you were not at all - your posts always seem positive


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## luckyhorseshoe (16 July 2012)

And yes your blubberings have made perfect sense so thankyou


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## nikkimariet (16 July 2012)

luckyhorseshoe said:



			NMT - regarding your post above (can't quote as on phone) I meant that cptrayes was insighting negativity with her questioning style. So totally agree with you using your defence mechanism. Didn't mean that you were not at all - your posts always seem positive 

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luckyhorseshoe said:



			And yes your blubberings have made perfect sense so thankyou 

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I hate using my phone in here - it either posts half of what I wanted, does stupid auto corrects or pasts in something totally random!

Yes  That's what I thought you meant!

Hah, we speak the same language....must be a diva thing


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## luckyhorseshoe (16 July 2012)

Oh autocorrect....don't get me started!

Haha yes the language of diva and sparkles!


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## cptrayes (16 July 2012)

nikkimariet said:



			1. Since the thread was pulled, I can't directly quote you. But, you said Fig was *so* short in the back he *would* get kissing spines... FYI, I never said he *was* a better horse, I said for *me* he was (for me!), and is what I look for and like in a horse and provided a picture to reference my thoughts on a thread that asked what the public opinion of a horse for sale was. Done and dusted.
		
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I did not. To say any such thing would be stupid, because it is not possible to say that any length of horse's back WILL get kissing spines. I said that a short back was more likely to result in kissing spines than a longer one and is more difficult to fit a saddle to.  I said it in response to your comment that the mare being talked about was so long in the back that she would have difficulties. I did not agree with you about the mare. The fact is that you posted pictures of your horse to illustrate him as your opinion of a better a horse than the one pictured and then got cross when several of us dared to disagree with you. 





nikkimariet said:



			You openly stated that I look like I have an eating disorder.
		
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I did not. I was not going to repeat it, but you have mentioned it, so here is what I wrote,  to remind you:




			I am really pleased for you, you've done brilliantly with him. Please do not take this the wrong way, it is genuine concern. Unless you are lucky enough to come from a family of string beans, or have been ill (in which case please forgive me) I would be very concerned about your own weight.

Congratulations again on qualifying, especially with such terrific scores.
		
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I fully accept that a lot of people thought that it was a comment that I should not have made but I made it for all the right reasons. Perhaps you missed the word "lucky"?  Again, I am sorry if it caused you genuine upset.




nikkimariet said:



			3. Yes....rude by return....there's a clue in that. You have insistently and bizarrely conjured up issues with the way my horse is tacked - you wanted answers, I gave detailed explanations. Then you back track - 'I didn't say the bit was too high, I just said it looked it' Same thing. You actually asked if you could ask questions that would get you accused of raining on my parade. Which, by the way, is akin to saying 'I don't mean to offend you...but....' and then saying the most offensive thing ever. Done and dusted.
		
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If what I have said to  you on this thread is the most offensive thing you ever hear then you are going to lead a truly charmed life 

Nikki you seem to be conveniently forgetting that I said that if you ignored my post then I would not comment. All you had to do was ignore my comment but you asked me to PM you. Having PM'd you perfectly politely you CHOSE to accuse me in public of being rude and I had no option but to either allow people to believe that was true or to say what I had actually said.

Why did you not ignore me as invited to? Or even answer by PM? And why, having voluntarily gone into this discussion in public are you once more blaming me for it?


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## Cop-Pop (17 July 2012)

nikkimariet said:



			Oh, and as promised. Here is a small selection of classic Dad quotes:

'Can we go home yet?'
'Dressage is boring.'
'Why have you put tubi grip on his legs?'
'Fig has a lot more sparkles than the other horses.'



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Well done on results. 

The Dad quotes remind me why I love it when my dad comes with me.

Him: "That's a funny dog.
"Me: "Dad that's a Section A foal..."

Me: "Daaaaaad..."
Him: "Here"  handing me coffee and food

Dads are the best


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## nikkimariet (17 July 2012)

Cop-Pop said:



			Well done on results. 

The Dad quotes remind me why I love it when my dad comes with me.

Him: "That's a funny dog.
"Me: "Dad that's a Section A foal..."

Me: "Daaaaaad..."
Him: "Here"  handing me coffee and food

Dads are the best 

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 thank you!

Massive lol at the Section A foal!!

He kept my chuckling all day it has to be said - although he was more enthusiastic when we used to showjump  Poncing is not such a spectators sport!


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## kezimac (17 July 2012)

holy cow what happened to this thread!!!!

I came on looked at pics - didnt post - came back to post and all hell broke loose!!!

Fwiw - I like fig - lovely looking horse and looks like really taking to new career well. Looks great and I love hearing about your 'journey' - mines off competing at present as we strengthen her back after steriods inj for KS - She 7/8th TB - she thinks she was a racehorse! 

Good luck and please carry on posting i like seeing your pics and how you guys are coming along - hoping to get my girly going as well as yours again soon.  -


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## TheoryX1 (17 July 2012)

Firstly, he is a lovely looking boy and looks a real sweetie, you have worked very hard on him and those results are a credit to you both.

Secondly, I am not itending to comment upon the noseband, bit or neck position issue.  I dont have enough knowledge to comment constructively about it.  However, I will comment that this is an open forum, people will offer CC, even if its not asked for.  Its in the public domain and you cant prevent it.  Thats life.  

NMT, I dont know you personally, you dont even compete in the same area as my daughter, nor in the same discipline, and I have no personal feelings about you one way or another, but all I can say, and I do mean this kindly is 'Grow a set love'.  Its uncanny how many of your threads degenerate into a real bitch fest, which to be honest I tend to steer well clear of?  Not everyone will agree with how you train your lovely boy, but as long as you trust your trainers and its working, quite honestly who gives a Fig really (pardon the pun)?  If you are happy with it then just take it on the chin.  You dont need to spend hours of your time retaliating and getting het up (I dont know cptrayes either, nor do I have any feelings one way or another).  I would also add that I dont agree with abusive or personal comments on here either, thats another whole new ball game, akin to cyber bullying, but its an open forum and people do say some things that you may perceive as unkind sometimes.  Yes, it would piss me off, but I dont post pictures of my horse, or rarely do, and if I get CC then so what - there really are worse things to worry about in ths world, arent there?

Good luck at the Regionals though, I am sure you will both do well.


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## nikkimariet (17 July 2012)

kezimac said:



			holy cow what happened to this thread!!!!

I came on looked at pics - didnt post - came back to post and all hell broke loose!!!

Fwiw - I like fig - lovely looking horse and looks like really taking to new career well. Looks great and I love hearing about your 'journey' - mines off competing at present as we strengthen her back after steriods inj for KS - She 7/8th TB - she thinks she was a racehorse! 

Good luck and please carry on posting i like seeing your pics and how you guys are coming along - hoping to get my girly going as well as yours again soon.  -
		
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That's what happens if you blink lol!

He is pretty (biased proud mum!)  Hope your mare pulls through her injections okay!

Thank you


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## JFTDWS (17 July 2012)

Did someone say blink?  DON'T BLINK 









(really must leave forum and find myself a life now  )


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## nikkimariet (17 July 2012)

JFTD said:



			Did someone say blink?  DON'T BLINK 









(really must leave forum and find myself a life now  )
		
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I *hate* that episode!!


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## TiddlyPups (17 July 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Nikki you seem to be conveniently forgetting that I said that if you ignored my post then I would not comment. All you had to do was ignore my comment but you asked me to PM you. Having PM'd you perfectly politely you CHOSE to accuse me in public of being rude and I had no option but to either allow people to believe that was true or to say what I had actually said.

Why did you not ignore me as invited to? Or even answer by PM? And why, having voluntarily gone into this discussion in public are you once more blaming me for it?
		
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I get the feeling that had nikkimariet ignored you, you would have posted saying she was hiding something.


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## amage (17 July 2012)

NMT I think he really looks fab and very much like he is enjoying himself. I don't understand all the flash noseband is actually a grakle in disguise stuff...is noseband espionage the new bling;-)?! 

I think the rate of his progression is evidently very suited to him...FWIW I often think that horses coming out of training are often not challenged enough and as a result misbehave/act silly earning them a bad rep when in fact they are just bored stupid. I would be quite interested to see his head carriage in a video of his races....just wondering as we have one who is happier ridden in a similar frame to Fig when doing flatwork and tends to race (successfully) in a similar neck frame only really lengthening out when off the bridle. I wonder is Fig the same in that he finds that position easier. 

No two horses are the same...we as riders/trainers/producers should in my opinion adapt the individual horse. What works for one won't work for another....given your results and form of late whatever you are doing is working for Fig. 

Finally please please send Philip Kirby his former trainer a pic and the news that he is qualified for Regionals....he is very good to update the page of their former inmates and Fig has a mention (incidentally did you know they also called him Fig?) so I'm sure they would love an update.


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## Ferdinase514 (17 July 2012)

OMG!! I love that episode!!!


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## kezimac (17 July 2012)

FinnMcCoul said:



			OMG!! I love that episode!!!
		
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lol - that episode scares the bejesus out of me!!!!!!!

Nikki - I love reading both yours and your sisters posts and seeing your highs and lows as you always post both - but i must admit I personally think some people must be jelous of how well you do as your posts really go EPIC!!!!! they just sprial out of control!!!????? WTF! 

Please Please carry on posting - I know its and open forum and will never get everyone agree but love seeing you guys post. thanks!


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## Ferdinase514 (17 July 2012)

....the trainer's site is really interesting. So nice to read the comments about the past horses.


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## Llanali (17 July 2012)

amage said:



			Finally please please send Philip Kirby his former trainer a pic and the news that he is qualified for Regionals....he is very good to update the page of their former inmates and Fig has a mention (incidentally did you know they also called him Fig?) so I'm sure they would love an update.
		
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Fantastic site, thanks for drawing our attention to it Amage. 

I think Fig looks grand, especially for his stage. For what's it worth, I hate low nosebands, and think low bits cause more issue than high ones, but most importantly I think there is no issue with his tack which I could see from a few photos!


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## JFTDWS (17 July 2012)

kezimac said:



			lol - that episode scares the bejesus out of me!!!!!!!
		
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me too


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## dafthoss (17 July 2012)

Only JFTD could turn a thread about poncing sparkly ponies to dr who


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## JFTDWS (17 July 2012)

dafthoss said:



			Only JFTD could turn a thread about poncing sparkly ponies to dr who  

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It's my speshul skill.

*takes bow*

*ducks rotting fruit*


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## nikkimariet (17 July 2012)

amage said:



			NMT I think he really looks fab and very much like he is enjoying himself. I don't understand all the flash noseband is actually a grakle in disguise stuff...is noseband espionage the new bling;-)?! 

I think the rate of his progression is evidently very suited to him...FWIW I often think that horses coming out of training are often not challenged enough and as a result misbehave/act silly earning them a bad rep when in fact they are just bored stupid. I would be quite interested to see his head carriage in a video of his races....just wondering as we have one who is happier ridden in a similar frame to Fig when doing flatwork and tends to race (successfully) in a similar neck frame only really lengthening out when off the bridle. I wonder is Fig the same in that he finds that position easier. 

No two horses are the same...we as riders/trainers/producers should in my opinion adapt the individual horse. What works for one won't work for another....given your results and form of late whatever you are doing is working for Fig. 

Finally please please send Philip Kirby his former trainer a pic and the news that he is qualified for Regionals....he is very good to update the page of their former inmates and Fig has a mention (incidentally did you know they also called him Fig?) so I'm sure they would love an update.
		
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He sometimes enjoys himself too much, we had passaging past a dredged ditch on our hack today  Naughty Pidget!

Fig (and CS) like to be kept active yep, so I'd agree with you there! I haven't managed to watch any videos of him racing - although one of my colleagues has a racing post account and has said I can use it to watch them - just keep forgetting 

I'm in touch with PKRacing and email them regular updates - they seem very happy that Fig is doing well, spoilt and loved to bits  And yes, 'little bay Fig'!



FinnMcCoul said:



			OMG!! I love that episode!!!
		
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Really?! It's the one episode that really freaks me out 



kezimac said:



			lol - that episode scares the bejesus out of me!!!!!!!

Nikki - I love reading both yours and your sisters posts and seeing your highs and lows as you always post both - but i must admit I personally think some people must be jelous of how well you do as your posts really go EPIC!!!!! they just sprial out of control!!!????? WTF! 

Please Please carry on posting - I know its and open forum and will never get everyone agree but love seeing you guys post. thanks!
		
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I always always try to post warts and all  Am the first to say if I didn't think me or horse were on top form, and usually mention how we've been lately at home too - it keeps it realistic  No rider and or horse is perfect all the time, that's just life (sadly)!

Thank you  I am scared for my next report :meep:



FinnMcCoul said:



			....the trainer's site is really interesting. So nice to read the comments about the past horses.
		
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From what I've heard through others they are truly all about the horses and what is best for them 



Llanali said:



			Fantastic site, thanks for drawing our attention to it Amage. 

I think Fig looks grand, especially for his stage. For what's it worth, I hate low nosebands, and think low bits cause more issue than high ones, but most importantly I think there is no issue with his tack which I could see from a few photos!
		
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Thanks 

Phew - not just me! I've been looking and looking to see the points made but honestly can't. I dropped his noseband down a hole tonight (took some pics if anyone is interested) - it looked wrong, the bit rings were catching on the crank loops, the flash had to be done up ridiculously tight just to keep it from moving - so for now I'll probably keep everything as it is  Fig seems happy enough anyway!



dafthoss said:



			Only JFTD could turn a thread about poncing sparkly ponies to dr who  

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And bravo to you


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## Mondy (18 July 2012)

Yes, varying the neck-position is all very well and good but only so far as the nose never strays behind the vertical.

Just saying.


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## Puppy (18 July 2012)

NMT, please wear a hat. Really, please?!

I'm sure that PS would never like to be in the position that my big sis was in, in  nursing me through/after a head injury. Not least as it involved her going to the chemist and asking for some heavy duty laxatives  (to counteract the side effects of the codeine )


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## popsdosh (18 July 2012)

kezimac said:



			lol - that episode scares the bejesus out of me!!!!!!!

Nikki - I love reading both yours and your sisters posts and seeing your highs and lows as you always post both - but i must admit I personally think some people must be jelous of how well you do as your posts really go EPIC!!!!! they just sprial out of control!!!????? WTF! 

Please Please carry on posting - I know its and open forum and will never get everyone agree but love seeing you guys post. thanks!
		
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Do some of you ever question why these threads go epic!I think some of you need to take a reality check.
Riders who ride at a high level have tried to pass on their thoughts and all they get is abuse and contempt from small fish in a very big pond.
I repeat what others have tried to say if you dont wish to handle the comments dont post on a public forum particularly photos that leave you open to it.They would be much better displayed on a blog as that is what the posts are turning into then those that see it will be people that are genuinely interested .I will be honest every time one of these threads go up we all know where its going.We all just sit back and wait for the explosion.Perhaps they get some enjoyment from it.
Why do you think lots of very experienced people do not wish to post on here any more it is because the standard of threads in particular has dropped to what you would expect in horse and pony.
I know I will get abuse back for this but it needs saying,however I am happy in the knowledge that all my horses are content and competing successfully at their level and that is all that matters and I know enough not to need others to reassure me of that.


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## GinaGeo (18 July 2012)

I can see where both CPTrayes and nikkimarriet are coming from. I went back to have a look at the photographs, Fig does look to have a really long mouth and hence the bit looks really high at first glance, but it does actually look to be in the right place at closer inspection.  The cavesson noseband is sitting where an English grackle would sit and if it were tighter presumably would have a similarish action although the grackle's one strap so won't be totally the same.  But I can see why you're fitting it high, although I like to have two fingers between cheek bone and noseband and two fingers inbetween noseband and nose. That's just me 

Here's a correctly fitted english Grackle, the top band does sit under the cheek bone like a high cavesson.

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=en...&w=200&h=199&ei=ym0GUJ2oMsjLtAb49_zEBg&zoom=1

My own youngster can drop behind the contact and overbends if he's allowed and it's something I'm working on.  What sort of exercises would you use to lift them?


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