# Christmas Livery



## Emmangel (13 November 2015)

Just being nosey here, what do other peoples' yards do at Christmas.  

My yard have said they will feed, hay and water only - no turn out or mucking out on Christmas Day and New years Day (full livery yard). Is that normal ?  

I will turn out/muck out myself rather than leaving the horses in pooh all day.  I know it's everybody's Christmas but I would expect my horses to be skipped out.  Am I being a bah humbug ??


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## _OC_ (13 November 2015)

I am full livery as well....been told the only thing that does not happen is there is no turn out.
Yeah your Bah humbug.....TBH a skip out would not hurt, but then every body is entitled to a Christmas day....difficult one because if you were a nurse then you would not leave a patient in a mess, would you.....Tricky!


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## Lammy (13 November 2015)

That sounds terrible! If they're up there anyway to feed/hay/water does it really take that much longer to turn horses out? I definitely wouldn't be happy with that. Even if they weren't turning out I'd expect them to be mucked out at the very least.
I'm on DIY and so will go up to do mine as usual but will offer to do the other girls in the morning as she has kids, hopefully in return for something like New Year's Day morning...as I won't be under the limit by 9 so would have to walk. Saying that a few years ago I did go to sleep at 6am and got up at 8am and biked tipsily to do the horses...the smell of crap really sobers you up!!


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## Dumbo (13 November 2015)

I work on a full livery yard and the horses stay in. No muck out but feed and hay as usual. They get extra bedding Christmas Eve then a thorough muck out on Boxing Day.


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## muddy_grey (13 November 2015)

Not bah humbug at all.  All full livery yards I have been at before the horses are still mucked out.  Mostly don't get turned out, but that is fine.


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## Casey76 (13 November 2015)

Lammy said:



			That sounds terrible! If they're up there anyway to feed/hay/water does it really take that much longer to turn horses out? I definitely wouldn't be happy with that. Even if they weren't turning out I'd expect them to be mucked out at the very least.
I'm on DIY and so will go up to do mine as usual but will offer to do the other girls in the morning as she has kids, hopefully in return for something like New Year's Day morning...as I won't be under the limit by 9 so would have to walk. Saying that a few years ago I did go to sleep at 6am and got up at 8am and biked tipsily to do the horses...the smell of crap really sobers you up!!
		
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I'd say, yes it does take that much longer to turn out.  On or yard of 24, it takes 10 mins to feed, about 20mins to hay, and upto 2hours to turn out; if you add bring in as well, that's 4 hours out of the day that the staff could be spending with their families.

My yard has the same every Sunday, though they do get skipped out.  It doesn't hurt to be kept in for one day.


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## 3OldPonies (13 November 2015)

Can't see any excuse for compromising welfare just because its Christmas sounds v. lazy to me.  Well done you OP for sorting out your own horse, shame about the lack of turn out though - the horses don't know its a special day for humans, they'll just be bored to tears and not understand why.


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## Nicnac (13 November 2015)

Is this in your livery contract?  If not, I would be rather peed off.  The horses don't know it's Christmas (or Sunday etc.) so why should they be left in and not be mucked out?  If it is in the contract, then I would do my own horse that day including turning out.


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## only_me (13 November 2015)

Assuming you mean that the livery yard won't turn the horses out but horses can stil go out if the owners put out? And that the livery yard won't muck out but the owners can?

Tbh I think feeding/hay is enough for the livery yard to do - they are entitled to get a Christmas break too. 
I'm sure most owners of horses at the yard could call up in am and turn out and then bring in in the evening.


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## Emmangel (13 November 2015)

Hmmm seems a very mixed bag of opinions  

I'm not complaining - more interested to know what others do, what is deemed as normal/acceptable.  I agree it's the staff's Christmas (our yard staff work really hard all year), but also the paying customers Christmas (I work a 50 hour week all year to pay my livery) and also the horses Christmas too  so three sides to it.

However, I chose to keep the horses so I will be therefore making their day as normal as possible by turning them out. My welfare comes after theirs.  I also agree it's just one day but my young boy goes out his mind, and my older horse will have big fat legs.


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## wills_91 (13 November 2015)

Ye everyone is entitled to a break but if that's the kind of business you chose to be in... I wouldn't mind if mine didn't get turned out but wouldn't be happy for her to stand in crap for 24 + hours.


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## 3OldPonies (13 November 2015)

If you're in the business of providing a service, then you know that you are going to end up giving up time at weekends, on bank holidays and at Christmas, Easter etc.  Especially when you are in charge of animals that service should continue as normal, if you don't like it, and yes of course everyone is entitled to a break, either do something else or work out a contingency so that the service does carry on as normal.  The care of the animal should not be compromised.


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## saddlesore (13 November 2015)

When I was full livery the horses were done as usual, however we paid a £10 additional charge. We perfectly happy with that


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## Kezzabell2 (13 November 2015)

Emmangel said:



			Hmmm seems a very mixed bag of opinions  

I'm not complaining - more interested to know what others do, what is deemed as normal/acceptable.  I agree it's the staff's Christmas (our yard staff work really hard all year), but also the paying customers Christmas (I work a 50 hour week all year to pay my livery) and also the horses Christmas too  so three sides to it.

However, I chose to keep the horses so I will be therefore making their day as normal as possible by turning them out. My welfare comes after theirs.  I also agree it's just one day but my young boy goes out his mind, and my older horse will have big fat legs.
		
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but what if the other owners do not turn there horses out!  will yours be out on its own?  I think its really bad that they wont muck out

I have mine on DIY so nothing will be different for me


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## Shavings (13 November 2015)

last year i was on a different livery yard to this year

last years yard was this
no yard staff where on and did nothing (i was full livery at time also) but 1 of the staff was coming to do h er horse and for a payment of £5 she would feed him , hay and skip out morning and night, all i had to do was leave haynets ready and breakie + dinner , i did go up in the afternoon the yard was quiet and crisp, i took my lad to the school and let him loose in his new boots 

this year i am on a new yard and nothing has been said yet but we dont have my OH's little one for Christmas this year so i will do him happily as he wont be with us for presents


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## Emmangel (13 November 2015)

Kezzabell2 said:



			but what if the other owners do not turn there horses out!  will yours be out on its own?  I think its really bad that they wont muck out

I have mine on DIY so nothing will be different for me 

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I am hoping that I can find others to turn out with.  If not, I will have to settle for turning them out in the indoor school for a stretch whilst I muck out....


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## julie111 (13 November 2015)

I wouldn't be happy having to keep my boy in all day just to make life easier. I am lucky my yo will turnout and bring as normal.


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## Tiddlypom (13 November 2015)

I would expect a horse on full livery to be mucked out and turned out as usual.


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## LHIS (13 November 2015)

Unless it's in your contract full livery should be just that. I suppose a little surcharge is reasonable, but I have little sympathy for the 'it's their Christmas too' argument because they chose to do that job. And like others have said, the horses haven't a clue it's Christmas, and they'll be left to stand and lie in their own crap. I wouldn't be happy with it personally, I'd go and sort my pony out myself and probably do the others (at least muck out)  as I couldn't rest easy knowing they were all in dirty stables.


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## Batgirl (13 November 2015)

It all comes down to what is agreed and what your relationship with your YO is like.
On our yard full liveries get the normal service bar turn out (started an hour later as I do feeds and hay everything so thye can have Xmas morning with their kid).  Those of us on 5/2 it is a DIY day anyway and we are welcome to turn out while we are there but must bring in when leaving (this i fro everyones piece of mind so there are no escapees etc - giving the YO's a rest for one day a year!)

On my yard I like to give the YO's a break and I actually muck out several boxes on top of my own to make their life easier in the morning and some of our full liveries in the passed have come down to muck theirs out when they don't have to.  In return I usually don't have to go down Xmas afternoon when my family are round but recently my aunt always wants to go visit anyway...)


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## YorksG (13 November 2015)

Do livey yards pay double time for christmas day? The reason care homes etc can't get the quality of staff they need, is because of poor pay, and they do pay unsocial hours pay. If livery charges aren't high enough to do that, then the service will be poor.


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## Lambkins (13 November 2015)

I have worked at big yards on Christmas and small private yards .. 
The big yard was the most fun.. We put up a sign .. Christmas Day we will feed hay water skip out sweep down etc .. But no turnout or excercising will be done by us and yard owner will finish off pm . BUT all horse owners were invited to join us in the morning for mulled wine , mince pies and horsey help .. Most owners came and pitched in .. And those that couldn't ( for whatever reason) donated snacks , chocolate , cakes etc etc .. We had a fab Christmas morning .. &#127876;&#127863;

On the private yard .. I was there on my own .. Did the horses on my own and it wasn't fun &#128527; but I was well paid


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## honetpot (13 November 2015)

3OldPonies said:



			If you're in the business of providing a service, then you know that you are going to end up giving up time at weekends, on bank holidays and at Christmas, Easter etc.  Especially when you are in charge of animals that service should continue as normal, if you don't like it, and yes of course everyone is entitled to a break, either do something else or work out a contingency so that the service does carry on as normal.  The care of the animal should not be compromised.
		
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  But they should charge you extra for it. Everyone else gets paid extra, usually double time for Bank Holiday.
 I used to have a friend who worked for various yards where liveries would turn up before Christmas so they would not have to look after them and then move out after.
  Equestrian jobs are so poorly paid, you are lucky if you get minimum wage and then you want them to work Christmas. I would be charging £25 per horse extra.


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## pippixox (13 November 2015)

when my horse was on full livery years ago (now I have 4 on rented land so all me!) they did not turn out Christmas, apparently due to insurance?! they also just skipped out, not a proper muck out. 
don't get me wrong, as a groom on Christmas day you do want a break, however, horses don't disappear on Christmas! I personally love doing mine on Christmas day. They go out and have extra treats. I like the fresh air in between eating way too much!
care homes have to provide identical, if not more care, on Christmas day, such as putting on a proper lunch. normally staff get one year doing Christmas day and the next year off. however, I know with small yards without a lot of staff that would be hard to do.


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## pippixox (13 November 2015)

I do agree it would be nice to pay extra. most jobs do double time. I I paid someone else to do mine I would happily do a Christmas bonus.


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## DD265 (13 November 2015)

Ours (full livery) is business as usual.

The only difference on Christmas Day is YO will stipulate a 3-4 hour visiting window - then they don't have to worry about bringing in at random times in the afternoon.


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## Micropony (13 November 2015)

Ours is same service as any other bank holiday, I.e. all basic services done but if you want your horse turned out or exercised you need to do it yourself.
I think that's perfectly reasonable, but wouldn't be happy if horse wasn't mucked out, unless it was made very clear in the livery contract so I knew from the off I would need to make arrangements if I was planning to be away over Christmas.


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## ihatework (13 November 2015)

On a full livery yard I would 100% expect the horse to be mucked out unless you had signed a livery contract to say otherwise. I think no turnout is acceptable. 

That's not to say I wouldn't go up and see to my horse if I could, just that if I couldn't I'd expect the basics to be done for me


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## Apercrumbie (13 November 2015)

I think you are being a bit bah humbug personally, although the no turnout would bother me.  I wouldn't mind a horse not being mucked out for two nights once in a while as long as they had a good deep bed.  

I suppose in an ideal world turnout would still be on offer but at an extra charge.  It takes ages to turnout a whole yard so I understand the workers not wanting to do it on Christmas Day, and I certainly wouldn't do it without being paid well for it.  However, I really like seeing my horse on Christmas day so if you aren't too far from the yard, could you pop up yourself and give him a bit of turnout then?


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## Luci07 (13 November 2015)

Odd responses. I have been on different yards as a part livery for years and the horses were never turned out on Xmas day, some would muck out, some would not. I never ever had an issue with coming up to work my horse before Christmas day kicked off or giving the staff a bit of a break, or mucking out if necessary.  This time I am on assisted DIY and I will assume no turn out (its a major job in itself bringing in and turning out) - no big deal. Will do horse as normal and work him as well. Yard staff deserve a life as well and Christmas day is not the same as any other time of the year! Will really not hurt to chip in if you are really concerned about your horse..


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## sport horse (13 November 2015)

As this is the  H & H forum I would anticipate that you all read H & H!  Last week there was a very interesting article about the difficulties employing yard staff and a possible looming crisis as the industry is currently about 800 staff short.
This, coupled with the new pension regulations, the living wage etc etc will inevitably mean that staff costs will rise. For those of you on livery and expecting (and may be paying for) a 365 day per year service , expect huge rises in your livery bill and maybe yards closing if they cannot recruit staff.
One way to retain staff is to improve their lot ie thoughtfully consider exactly what you expect on major Bank Holidays and being prepared to pay sufficient to attract people to work those days.


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## Luci07 (13 November 2015)

sport horse said:



			As this is the  H & H forum I would anticipate that you all read H & H!  Last week there was a very interesting article about the difficulties employing yard staff and a possible looming crisis as the industry is currently about 800 staff short.
This, coupled with the new pension regulations, the living wage etc etc will inevitably mean that staff costs will rise. For those of you on livery and expecting (and may be paying for) a 365 day per year service , expect huge rises in your livery bill and maybe yards closing if they cannot recruit staff.
One way to retain staff is to improve their lot ie thoughtfully consider exactly what you expect on major Bank Holidays and being prepared to pay sufficient to attract people to work those days.
		
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Actually, there are a lot who don't, but I am in the minority and subscribe!. I thought the article was thought provoking and the other scary thing I have personally seen is a lot of big yards going in my area. This is due to getting planning permission. My old yard which was very picturesque with Victorian stables has shut down and is being turned into a house. Another showcentre near me has apparently been sold for building and I understand some other local yards are under heavy threat from builders as well.


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## sarahann1 (13 November 2015)

There is no full or part livery option available from around about 20th Dec - 3rd Jan or any public holidays normally at the yard I'm at, DIY only those days but it's reflected in what's charged. We all help each other out those days and it's a really good atomosphere on the yard round Christmas time 

The yard also closes at 2pm both Christmas and Boxing Day, which has always irked me a wee bit, but I do understand the reasons why so I get just on with it and work round it.


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## Abi90 (13 November 2015)

The problem I have is that I too am working Christmas and New Year so need my horse doing because I am working not because it's Christmas. 

He's on full livery for the very reason that my job works long hours and my shifts get changed very short notice (ie same day)  which makes planning difficult.

I do agree that everyone is entitled to Christmas/new year but plenty of other people aren't getting one either. Luckily one of the liveries has agreed to do my horse on those days.


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## Tyssandi (13 November 2015)

Emmangel said:



			Just being nosey here, what do other peoples' yards do at Christmas.  

My yard have said they will feed, hay and water only - no turn out or mucking out on Christmas Day and New years Day (full livery yard). Is that normal ?  

I will turn out/muck out myself rather than leaving the horses in pooh all day.  I know it's everybody's Christmas but I would expect my horses to be skipped out.  Am I being a bah humbug ??
		
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the yard is skipped out  and a section hay given - then someone comes down lunch time and another section give -

pm feed given and skip out and last thing   hay given - no turnout


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## EventingMum (13 November 2015)

I'm a YO, my staff work either Christmas or New Year doing two hours on Christmas Day / New Year's Day and a half day the following day. On Christmas Day / New Year's Day the horses are fed and mucked out but not turned out, My OH, Son and I do the yard the rest of the day. The following day the horses go out but come in earlier than normal, again we do the yard in the afternoon and evening. It's hard work for us but the staff all get plenty of time with their families and the horses survive being in for one day especially as they get treats in their feeds!


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## Jazmyn101 (13 November 2015)

The yard I'm on normally does DIY, part and full livery, on Christmas there are no livery services. The yard will do the morning feed as usual but you have to do everything else yourself.


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## ShadowHunter (13 November 2015)

I understand the no turnout but the no mucking out wouldn't be acceptable to me. I wouldn't want my horse stood in her own mess for 24hrs.


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## HashRouge (13 November 2015)

I'm firmly on the side of the yard owner and staff. It is absolutely the yard owner's prerogative how they decide to deal with Christmas Day and from the sounds of it they probably don't have any staff on Christmas Day, whether because they've decided to give them all the day off (in which case, good for them) or because they can't get anyone to work. Imagine being the YO and having to muck out however many horses on your own, on Christmas Day! It is a a huge national holiday, so no surprise normal rules don't apply. It sounds like all the basic needs of the horses will be met, although as an owner I wouldn't want my horse standing in on a dirty bed all day, so I'd be up there myself, with no complaints. It doesn't take long to muck out one or two horses, but it takes a very long time to do a yard full. Yard staff work very hard, all year round, for very little money. Usually they work weekends and bank holidays with no complaint. It is true that you pay for a service when you put your horse on full livery, but I do think people should remember that without people willing to accept the low pay and long hours, this service wouldn't exist. So have a little Christmas spirit people, and let your grooms have a Christmas lie in 

Also, it seems like the yard has given plenty of notice. The OP has plenty of time to make alternative arrangements if necessary.


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## BlackRider (13 November 2015)

I've been on full livery for 20 years, and never been told that the horses wouldn't be mucked out / turned out.

I usually approach the owner before christmas and offer to muck out and bring in, if they're ok to do breakfast and turn out - some yards say yes, some have said don't worry business as usual.  

But if someone is doing him as usually, I always leave chocolates / wine as a thank you.


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## laura_nash (13 November 2015)

The last time I was on part / assisted livery they would turn out the well-behaved ones on Christmas day if the weather was okay, but horses had to wear their turnout rugs etc overnight so they were ready to go and keep them on when they came back in.  There was an extra charge, and if it was foul they didn't turn out.  They skipped out and added bedding if they were kept in, but not a full muck out.  If the weather was suitable, the sensible ones (that wouldn't kick up a fuss) would be left out Christmas Eve to Boxing Day, with prior agreement and suitable shelter and rugs of course.

I think for full livery I would want either skip out or turnout - though I would expect an extra fee.  After all people choose full livery because they can't necessarily be there, what if the owner was abroad or something.


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## Tobiano (13 November 2015)

Our yard is assisted DIY and it works the same on Christmas Day and Boxing Day but you pay double for all services - perfectly sensible if you ask me.

For those saying that yard staff need Christmas Day off - surely there must be more than one person of yard staff available or they could never have a day off all the rest of the year!  Some people may be happy to work Christmas Day for extra cash - I don't really see why that cannot be done if you operate a full livery service.  I do have sympathy for on site YOs who want to close the yard early - as otherwise they could have people trampling all over their property all day on Christmas Day, which must be a bit dreary. 

To be clear, I'd expect to pay a good bit extra for 'normal service' on Christmas Day.


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## mytwofriends (13 November 2015)

The last sizeable livery yard I was on used to turn all the horses out on Christmas Eve, and they came in on the 27th. They were hayed in the field and as the yard owners lived on site, they were checked periodically.


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## Equi (13 November 2015)

One day not getting mucked out is not going to kill the horse.


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## Possum (13 November 2015)

When I used to work with horses (albeit at a riding school not a livery yard) we were expected to look after the horses as normal. There were no lessons and we were allowed to go home between t/o and catch in, but that still left 15 horses to feed, rug change, turnout, muck out, bring in later hay feed and put to bed, and only one or 2 members of staff were on so you'd sometimes be doing it alone.  Our only compensation was a day off in lieu because we'd worked a bank holiday.

And that was just what we did, it would never have occurred to us to leave the mucking out...

There are plenty of people who have to do their jobs on Christmas Day, and I'd not be impressed if the yard neglected my horse for a day because it was Christmas - what if you were abroad?!


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## Shutterbug (13 November 2015)

My last full livery yard 6 years ago, Xmas eve all horses were out, rugged up and left out till boxing day - if you wanted your horse in on Xmas day you did your own stables.


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## MotherOfChickens (13 November 2015)

Lammy said:



			That sounds terrible! If they're up there anyway to feed/hay/water does it really take that much longer to turn horses out?
		
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yes, it can take ages to turn out once you've figured in rug changes-then someone has to come back after dinner and bring them all in again, change rugs etc. In a yard of say 40 horses, it can take over an hour to turn out for 4 staff. If owners care that much they should go and exercise their own but honestly, most horses should be able to cope with a day in!

Whenever I groomed, we did not turn out at any yard but we did muck out full liveries (makes Boxing Day so much harder if you don't). I don't remember being paid more when salaried-deal was you got xmas or NY. When I was freelancing I did charge double time and could earn loads over the xmas and new year period..


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## SusieT (13 November 2015)

Animals don't do holidays. Farmers still feed and water their animals and milk the cows. DIY/part may be entitled to take it off but full livery who offer 354days service otherwise need to employ freelance grooms if they don't want to do the work..


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## MotherOfChickens (13 November 2015)

sport horse said:



			As this is the  H & H forum I would anticipate that you all read H & H!  Last week there was a very interesting article about the difficulties employing yard staff and a possible looming crisis as the industry is currently about 800 staff short.
This, coupled with the new pension regulations, the living wage etc etc will inevitably mean that staff costs will rise. For those of you on livery and expecting (and may be paying for) a 365 day per year service , expect huge rises in your livery bill and maybe yards closing if they cannot recruit staff.
One way to retain staff is to improve their lot ie thoughtfully consider exactly what you expect on major Bank Holidays and being prepared to pay sufficient to attract people to work those days.
		
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no, I don't read H&H, there's very little in it to interest me these days. tbh staff working conditions and pay have always been dismal for 90% of people-working on xmas day is the least of their worries and I am not sure slightly improving one day a year would help that much-although it would be nice. 

If people actually paid a real going rate for their livery, many would not be able to afford it. I know prices have gone up a bit in recent years but it was long overdue.


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## HashRouge (13 November 2015)

Possum said:



			When I used to work with horses (albeit at a riding school not a livery yard) we were expected to look after the horses as normal. There were no lessons and we were allowed to go home between t/o and catch in, but that still left 15 horses to feed, rug change, turnout, muck out, bring in later hay feed and put to bed, and only one or 2 members of staff were on so you'd sometimes be doing it alone.  Our only compensation was a day off in lieu because we'd worked a bank holiday.

And that was just what we did, it would never have occurred to us to leave the mucking out...

There are plenty of people who have to do their jobs on Christmas Day, and I'd not be impressed if the yard neglected my horse for a day because it was Christmas - what if you were abroad?!
		
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But it's not like they're just not doing the horses. They have given the owners plenty of notice (over a month till Christmas) that full service will not be happening on that day, so the owners can make alternate arrangements if they don't want to do the jobs themselves. Is it just me who thinks that owners ought to take some responsibility for their horses, even if they are paying for full livery?? I mean, it is one day of the year, let the yard owner (and staff) have a break!!


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## Copperpot (13 November 2015)

When I was on full livery it was business as usual. Which was lucky as I was working Xmas day. I did have to pay extra which was fine by me. The whole point of being on full livery was someone to care for my horse when I couldn't. Now I rent my own place so I will do them myself with help from OH.


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## criso (13 November 2015)

As someone who is rarely in the same country over Christmas and even if I was,  can't get up to the yard as the trains don't run I can honestly say this whole issue has made me dread Christmas.

Some yards I have been on don't offer livery at all on Christmas Day, others have offered it a much higher price, double or more which is fine IMO.

However, I think not mucking out is not acceptable.  Either as a yard you say we can't 't provide livery so make your own arrangements or it's done properly.  If rug changes are an issue I would be happy for my horses to stay in turnouts for a couple of days.  I like the leave in a field for 2 days option too but turnout is something that seems to be rationed round here.

I feel this way because one of my horses is very wet and dirty and his usual bed after overnight looks like most horse's after a week.  If you don't turn him out you really need to muck out twice a day, he is so disgusting.  When he was on box rest, I was on 5 day livery and also mucking out after work again.   The other gets fat legs if he doesn't go out so while I understand the not turning out it does cause problems.

When I only had one at 2 yards I had friends who were away over the new year so they did mine on Christmas day and I did theirs New Years Day.  Now it's more difficult to beg favours with 2 big dirty horses and no one seems to be away at new year and needing favours in return.

Current yard doesn't offer anything, year 1 my old yard manager was doing some cover at another yard nearby and I offered her a large sum to pop in and do mine on the way.  Last year I paid the same amount to someone on the yard.  Both times I suggested leave turnouts on to save time but I don't think they did.   Not sure if that is an option this year as last year one developed cellulitis on boxing day and probably now no one wants the responsibility.


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## Greylegs (13 November 2015)

We have a nice arrangement at our yard (full livery). It's a family owned and run yard, so the staff all get the day off and the family all pitch in to do the whole yard (30 horses) but liveries are asked if they would be willing to do their own mucking out and other chores that day. The more who do, the easier it is for the YO to get done. Liveries can turn out if they want but must also commit to bringing in. Lots of liveries help out, most double up and help each other at either end of the day and somehow the whole business of horse care turns into a bit of a christmas party. Sherry and mince pies with added mucking out ....  !


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## Equine_Dream (13 November 2015)

HashRouge said:



			I'm firmly on the side of the yard owner and staff. It is absolutely the yard owner's prerogative how they decide to deal with Christmas Day and from the sounds of it they probably don't have any staff on Christmas Day, whether because they've decided to give them all the day off (in which case, good for them) or because they can't get anyone to work. Imagine being the YO and having to muck out however many horses on your own, on Christmas Day! It is a a huge national holiday, so no surprise normal rules don't apply. It sounds like all the basic needs of the horses will be met, although as an owner I wouldn't want my horse standing in on a dirty bed all day, so I'd be up there myself, with no complaints. It doesn't take long to muck out one or two horses, but it takes a very long time to do a yard full. Yard staff work very hard, all year round, for very little money. Usually they work weekends and bank holidays with no complaint. It is true that you pay for a service when you put your horse on full livery, but I do think people should remember that without people willing to accept the low pay and long hours, this service wouldn't exist. So have a little Christmas spirit people, and let your grooms have a Christmas lie in 

Also, it seems like the yard has given plenty of notice. The OP has plenty of time to make alternative arrangements if necessary.
		
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Completely agree!


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## maisie06 (13 November 2015)

3OldPonies said:



			Can't see any excuse for compromising welfare just because its Christmas sounds v. lazy to me.  Well done you OP for sorting out your own horse, shame about the lack of turn out though - the horses don't know its a special day for humans, they'll just be bored to tears and not understand why.
		
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This ^^ I would rather pay extra for staff to be paid extra to sort my horse out properly on Xmas day, not all people want to have family time and some people like myself don't celebrate xmas at all and would be happy to work it!! Plenty of decent freelance grooms out there who will!!  If I had a yard it would be business as normal for the horses even if I did the work myself on that day. I just don't get  why the horse should be compromised because it's christmas....take a leaf out of the dairy industry, those cows can't just be left on 25th dec.....


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## spacefaer (13 November 2015)

When I was a YO, some of the horses were mine, some were full liveries, some were part, some DIY and some belonged to my WPs.

I gave my WPs the choice of working either Christmas or New Year - they had a week off, but were to work out between the 3 of them who was to cover which week.

They couldn't decide between them, so I got fed up and sent them all home for Christmas. None of them was local so they each left their horse(s) behind.

I did all 17 for the whole week. Happy Christmas!


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## conniegirl (13 November 2015)

My yard owner will not turnout on Christmas and no one is allowed to turn out either, this came about after turning a horse out on Christmas Day and it careered off, slipped and shattered it's leg.
Horrific having to phone the owner on xmas day to say the vet was on their way o put the horse down.
Oh and most vets charge at least triple time on xmas day so for us that means a call out fee of nearly £200 alone.
So now horses stay safely in their stables, it's nothing unusual for them as the sometime spend random days in when the fields flood or the weather is horrific.
Hay and water are given morning and evening.


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## Equine_Dream (13 November 2015)

maisie06 said:



			This ^^ I would rather pay extra for staff to be paid extra to sort my horse out properly on Xmas day, not all people want to have family time and some people like myself don't celebrate xmas at all and would be happy to work it!! Plenty of decent freelance grooms out there who will!!  If I had a yard it would be business as normal for the horses even if I did the work myself on that day. I just don't get  why the horse should be compromised because it's christmas....take a leaf out of the dairy industry, those cows can't just be left on 25th dec.....
		
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Or.......owners could *shock horror* sort their own horses out on christmas day or make other arrangements. Why does it have to be livery service as normal or a compromise of horses welfare? Why cant owners play their part to?

I get its a service that you pay for but as in the OP if the YO is prepared to do the basics (feed, water, hay) then I dont see why the owners cant do their bit for just one day of the year if they're that concerned about their horse not being mucked out or turned out ? I wouldnt want my horses stood in their own muck for 24hrs but I would happily muck out myself. Its Christmas for everyone after all


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## criso (13 November 2015)

I've had four emergency callouts, two on bank holidays (easter  and christmas), two friday evenings and they were injuries that happened when stabled so it can happen anytime.   Our vets charge double call out fee on bank holidays, weekend and evening but other charges are the same.


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## charlie76 (13 November 2015)

conniegirl said:



			My yard owner will not turnout on Christmas and no one is allowed to turn out either, this came about after turning a horse out on Christmas Day and it careered off, slipped and shattered it's leg.
Horrific having to phone the owner on xmas day to say the vet was on their way o put the horse down.
Oh and most vets charge at least triple time on xmas day so for us that means a call out fee of nearly £200 alone.
So now horses stay safely in their stables, it's nothing unusual for them as the sometime spend random days in when the fields flood or the weather is horrific.
Hay and water are given morning and evening.
		
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We also had the same on boxing day. Horse broke its leg in the field. What a horrible Xmas. A
There was skeleton staff on too so very stressful all round. Then the on call vet took hours to come as was already at an emergency.

From that moment on I have always said no turn out Xmas day, boxing day and new years day. Basically the days myself and my staff would also like some family time. We are there 365 days a year and we will still be there on these days but only for the minmum time. We do not exercise liveries on Xmas day. We do lunge on boxing day and new years day. 
We still muck out the full liveries both ends of the day having given them extra bedding on xmas eve. 
We leave them on day beds with plenty of hay and treat balls and go back around 6pm , skip out , bed down and put to bed. I think this is more than fair. 
All part liveries are diy on these days, its in the contract. 
If the part liveries want the horse done am and pm its £50.


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## Amicus (13 November 2015)

I've never had a horse on full livery but personally quite shocked, doesn't seem a very merry Xmas horse to stand in **** all day. I'd be happy for the yard to say it's double or treble for Xmas as fairly that's what it costs. To me seems much fairer to give owners the choice to pay or have a diy day not just leave the horses to there own devices. I don't think risk of injury is fair and a couple of vets have told me about having to deal with colic cases in dubious full livery yards over Xmas probably due to sub-standard care and horse running out of forage.


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## Peregrine Falcon (14 November 2015)

Never been on anything apart from DIY livery.  My friend and I share fields and responsibilities together.  Last Xmas though, both of us were away so another good friend of mine did them.

I can see both sides.  Yes, if you are on full livery then you would expect some service.  This is being offered albeit a reduced one. No, I wouldn't particularly want my pony standing in a dirty bed but it isn't for days.  They're quite happy to lie in poo the night before a show so they're not really fussed are they?!

The yards that have owners turning up and "mucking in" to muck out is a nice way to ensure routine for the horses there.


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## windand rain (14 November 2015)

When I worked full time with animals not quite the same as a livery as I worked in a private zoo the animals still had to be fed, watered, exercised and cleaned out I had to work christmas as the zoo was owned by a school so all the kids had gone home for christmas I got a day off when they came back in term time. the same applied for every school holiday I did the animals my only days off holidays etc could be taken when the kids were in the building as they did them when I wasnt there under supervision of the teacher who organised the zoo. So if I was paying for full livery I would expect the same service as any other day I may not worry too much about exercise but I would expect turnout, feed hay muck out and the exact same routine as any other day as horses are such creatures of routine and are easily upset. Unless like mine things ar random all the time but I doubt a big livery yard could work without a strict routine


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## JulesRules (14 November 2015)

Checking what the arrangements are at Christmas is a point I always make when I move to a new yard. I have chosen not to move to a yard before as no services were offered at Christmas. 

Normal services have been available on all 3 yards that I have on over the years ( all assisted DIY).

It's all very well saying people should sort their own horses and don't YO's deserve a day off, but I'm normally away from home visiting family and it's just not logistically possible. I also work hard all year and I don't think some quality time at Christmas with family is too much to ask for, without the added stress of trying to arrange someone to look after my horse.

I'm happy to pay a premium for the service by the way.


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## popsdosh (14 November 2015)

I can see both sides and to be honest I believe the YM should do what they see fit on those days as long as it does not compromise welfare as everybody is entitled to a piece of the day .Shock horror a lot of liveries are happy to not give a stuff about their horse on christmas day as long as their day is perfect.
However I have every sympathy with YOs who refuse to do add on services on any day for assisted liveries because just as much as its your choice to do it and not pay somedays it is theres not to do it .


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## pixie (14 November 2015)

I do my livery horses at Christmas, but at a higher rate.  I'm more than happy for liveries to help eachother out instead if they prefer, but it seems that they'd rather spend Christmas with their own families.  Of course, this means that I never get to see my side of the family at Christmas (5+ hours away).  I'd love for my sons to spend Christmas with their other grandparents and uncle/aunt, but sadly I've always got work here to do.  It seems it would be selfish of me to want a few days off for myself while liveries looked after their own horses.


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## Tiddlypom (14 November 2015)

pixie said:



			I do my livery horses at Christmas, but at a higher rate.
		
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Charging a higher daily rate on Christmas Day, Boxing Day and New Years Day is fair and reasonable. Say triple the usual rate.



			It seems it would be selfish of me to want a few days off for myself while liveries looked after their own horses.
		
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I'm sorry, but if you provide full livery, that should be available 365 days per year. By all means have your few days off, but have them at another time. 

It's quite an eye opener reading the posts which are slagging off full livery clients for wanting to be away at Christmas. They are paying for the privilege of being free to choose when they see their horse or when they are away. Just move the main Christmas day celebrations and family get togethers to another time, like people in other jobs have to.

I was brought up in a family full of doctors, who had to work and be on call throughout the holiday. You just work around it.

NB I keep mine at home so don't have to go through this whole charade, we stay home every Christmas and New Year and the horses' routine is unchanged.


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## BSL (14 November 2015)

Haven't read all replies. Just going with gut instinct reply. I have never done full livery. However, if I was paying for full livery, I would expect Christmas Day to be the same as any other. Then my choice as to whether I visit horse or not. What if the horse owner has to work Christmas Day.? Surely if it is a business, it's down to the business owner to arrange cover. I have had jobs (not horsey) where shifts have been done, Maybe work Christmas day but have Boxing day off. Alternate each year. I suppose it depends on the yard. As to is it a real business, or someone getting a bit of cash to look after someone elses horse.


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## pixie (14 November 2015)

That's the thing, we don't really get any time off, ever.  
Eldest is at school, which limits the times we can take off.  Husband is a farmer, so we can't go away at all over the summer.  And half term/holidays, guess what, liveries want their horses looking after!  Not sure when you expect those few days off to magically appear from...


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## HashRouge (14 November 2015)

Tiddlypom said:



			I'm sorry, but if you provide full livery, that should be available 365 days per year. By all means have your few days off, but have them at another time. 

It's quite an eye opener reading the posts which are slagging off full livery clients for wanting to be away at Christmas. They are paying for the privilege of being free to choose when they see their horse or when they are away. Just move the main Christmas day celebrations and family get togethers to another time, like people in other jobs have to.
		
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Seriously???
The YO provides the service, it is up to them to decide what the terms of that service are. If they want to have a bit of a break on Christmas Day, that is 100% their prerogative. As a horse owner, if you know you will be away at Christmas, you need to make sure that full livery will be available on that day when you move onto the yard. According to you, the YO has to provide care on Christmas Day because they choose to run a full livery service...but the horse owner chooses to own a horse, they have to accept responsibility for that horse! I can understand keeping a horse on full livery, but I can't understand the absolute horror expressed by some posters on this thread that they might, one day a year, be expected to care for their own horse. If the YO wants to provide a full service on Christmas Day, fair enough. If not, that is their right so long as they give the owner plenty of notice, which they have done in the YO's case. 

Also, I don't understand why people seem to think the YO is compromising the welfare of the horses. They have simply said that they won't be mucking out on Christmas Day, but the owner is welcome to muck the horse out themselves or make alternate arrangements. 

Personally, I wouldn't just expect someone to muck my horse out on Christmas Day, full livery or no. If I knew I would be going away for Christmas, I would make sure I knew well in advance whether or not normal service was provided, so that I could make alternate arrangements if need be. But then again, maybe it's because I've worked as a full time groom and understand how hard people work in the equine industry, and for how little money.


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## chocolategirl (14 November 2015)

Personally I'm stunned that full livery yards don't offer normal service over X as??!! My yard is DIY with all services offered as extras. On Xmas day I confess I will only either turn out or bring in, and that's only if I don't have to change rugs but I wouldn't dream of not offering this as a minimum. I do charge a bit extra though which I think is only fair as its a huge convenience for those that need it, so I like to think everyone is happy with that? If I were offering full livery, I would just offer one of the grooms double time and charge to clients. I'm sure this wouldn't be a problem would it? All things considered, this is one of the reasons I didn't want to do full livery, it's too restricting!


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## criso (14 November 2015)

pixie said:



			it seems that they'd rather spend Christmas with their own families.
		
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Actually I would love to spend time with the horses on Christmas day, when I was a kid and lived walking distance from the stables, it was great to get away from my family. 

Unfortunately these days I can't - and it's can't not won't.#

And those that say make other arrangements please make suggestions.  The yard won't want me to get a stranger in and have to give them security codes


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## pixie (14 November 2015)

I should add, I only offer part (5-day) livery, but am often asked to provide last-minute weekend services, so can't make plans to go away at weekends.


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## Sussexbythesea (14 November 2015)

Yards I've been on have always mucked out liveries on Xmas day but not turned out. I'm ok with that the horses are all fine especially as all the horses are staying in they don't seem to stress. I wouldn't want him not to be mucked out though. They wont

When I've been on DIY and needed to go away as I've no family locally I've always found someone to do it for a big Xmas bonus


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## SO1 (14 November 2015)

I am on 7 day part livery and my pony and the other 7 day part liveries will have the same service as they would get on others days in the year. They will be turned out, mucked out and feed as normal, though I think there will be some flexibility with catch in times. If I was able to be at the yard I would go up and help out doing my pony and also helping out with others if need be. If my family lived near the yard I expect they would enjoy coming up and helping too as we normally go for a walk xmas afternoon so it is nice to get out of the house for a while.

My family do not live in the UK and the only time we all get together is xmas so I have to be on a yard that offers services xmas and boxing day at least. However I do respect that the same may apply to those who work on yards too.

I do think staff should be paid extra for working bank holidays and xmas etc but this should be factored into the price of providing the 7 day livery. With the 7 day liveries YO can plan because she knows how many are on the 7 day service and so how many staff will be needed on bank holidays and factor that in to the costs of providing the livery throughout the year. With 5 day or assisted DIY it is a bit harder to plan in advance as people might not book services so far in advance. If you have horses on 7 day livery all year round you know how many people you are going to need to look after them and how much income you are going to get in so it is much easier to plan for, whereas if you offer assisted DIY then it is harder because you may not know how many horses you are going to need to be looking after each day that far in advance so staffing is more complicated.

If you are on 7 day livery and the yard are not able to provide full services over the xmas will they allow you to use a freelance groom to cover this period if you can't go yourself - an added complication is that some yards may not let you get someone else in to do your horse due to security reasons.


The whole reason I am on 7 day livery is that I want the reassurance that my pony is cared for all at times, I don't live very near the yard and even though I only work 5 days a week so I could probably do 5 part livery and save quite a bit of money, but having him on 7 days means I don't need to worry about xmas or if I can't get to the yard at the weekend due to snow or illness for example.



I wonder how this works with horses on competition livery or retirement livery where the owners may live very far away?


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## AandK (14 November 2015)

I think both sides have to consider each other.  It's up to the YO to set the standard as to what's available on Xmas day and the client to either accept that when they move to the yard, or find somewhere that offers what they need.
I'm DIY so have always done my own horse over Xmas but I used to be a groom years ago. 
On the big yard that did part and full (where part meant everything but excersise, and full included excersise), there were 30 odd horses. On Xmas day and Boxing Day, the horses were not turned out (at that time of year they only went out for half a day, every other day) but were fed/hayed/watered, skipped out and bedding added. Many of the liveries would come up and muck out/ride on those days. 
On the small private yard, I only had to work AM Xmas day for a couple of hours, YO helped out (which she did quite often anyway), again horses weren't turned out, but were mucked out. The other groom did PM. 
If I were a full livery, if I couldn't make it up myself, I'd want my horse fed/hayed/watered and skipped out. Staying in for one day won't hurt, and whilst I agree there are certain jobs that you sign up for where you know you have to work weekends/bank holidays, I think in the case of yards, things can be done without compromising welfare to allow staff to have a slightly easier day.


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## Orca (14 November 2015)

criso said:



			And those that say make other arrangements please make suggestions.  The yard won't want me to get a stranger in and have to give them security codes
		
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The yard will have to. Some people have suggested it's a welfare issue for the yard to deny mucking out and turnout on those two days. I disagree. Those are possibly the only two days out of 365 when they can possibly hope that people will be free to look after their own horses or at least know someone who will be but if you, personally, can't get to the yard, they must meet you halfway and allow access to someone else.

When I worked at a livery yard, Christmas day and NY were just like any other, except we got up even earlier to fit everything in! Up at four, out to the horses, in for a massive breakfast, out again until Christmas dinner (I was a live in groom). Then back out to bring in, feed and tuck everyone in. I loved it!


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## Starzaan (14 November 2015)

When I had my own yard it was business as usual. We did our celebrating in the evening. Horses mucked out and turned out at 5am, full liveries ridden, then all brought in at 5pm, groomed and put to bed. 

Where I am now we don't ride, but everything gets turned out, mucked out, and then we go home for lunch. Come back at 3, bring in and put to bed and then we're done. Anything hunting on Boxing Day stays in and gets a bath though.


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## minesadouble (14 November 2015)

We only have DIYs so not an issue for us. Not being mucked out on Christmas Day is hardly a welfare issue, I'm sure the horses couldn't care less. I assume they will be given extra bedding so if mine were on full livery then not being mucked out  so that staff could enjoy Christmas Day would not bother me at all.


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## Tapir (14 November 2015)

When I worked at a yard with full liveries, Christmas day was exactly the same as any other day.  We weren't even paid extra for working bank holidays.  The grooms either worked Christmas day or New Year's day, we worked it out between ourselves. 

 I'd be really unimpressed if a full livery yard refused to do my horse over Christmas, the whole point of forking out for f/l is that someone else does your horse because you can't/don't want to.


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## Doublethyme (14 November 2015)

Glad I'm DIY, I don't find it acceptable to leave a horse not mucked out for 24 hours or longer even with turnout.   Without is appalling.

I do agree its up to the yard to set the parameters of what they can or can't provide, however unless this is clearly agreed and stated at time of agreeing contract for service,  so that livery know what to expect and provide cover accordingly, it is outrageous to just not provide contracted service like any other day.

Bet they don't give clients a discount on livery for services not provided!

The horses welfare should not be compromised.    As for the vet/accident excuse, that is just balderdash.    What about the higher likelihood of colic or stress related incidents because the horses have their normal routine disrupted.


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## conniegirl (14 November 2015)

Doublethyme said:



			The horses welfare should not be compromised.    As for the vet/accident excuse, that is just balderdash.    What about the higher likelihood of colic or stress related incidents because the horses have their normal routine disrupted.
		
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Most horses are used to spending the odd day in, mine certainly are. 
If your horses colic at such a small change in routine then there is something seriously wrong with them and God help you if you ever went to a show which would completely ruin their precious routine, or God forbid a week long championship show where they are generally stuck in all week.
Or box rest? 
1 day in their stable with their usual hay/haylege and feed will not cause any harm at all


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## Doublethyme (14 November 2015)

I'm not saying they would colic, I was using it as an example to show how ridiculous the excuse of vets/injury is to keep a horse in.    They are just as likely to need a vet in a stable as out.

Leave yourself horse in, but don't hide behind the injury excuse.

For what its worth my horses can stable or turnout and God has nothing to say about it ;-)


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## stormox (14 November 2015)

In yards Ive been in, everyone has mucked in together on Christmas Day to get all the jobs done- some yards we even had a Xmas morning ride-out. 
Horses arent goin to be harmed by one day skipped instead of mucked out, or staying in.  Yard owners/managers are entitled to spend time with their families on Xmas day should they want to. Yes OP, IMHO you are definately being Bah Humbug!!


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## conniegirl (14 November 2015)

Doublethyme said:



			I'm not saying they would colic, I was using it as an example to show how ridiculous the excuse of vets/injury is to keep a horse in.    They are just as likely to need a vet in a stable as out.

Leave yourself horse in, but don't hide behind the injury excuse.

For what its worth my horses can stable or turnout and God has nothing to say about it ;-)
		
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Horses are at less risk in thier stable as they arnt galloping around on potentially slippy ground.
Mine is perfectly settled in his stable so at no greater risk of colic if he spends a day in and id really rather not invite a vet bill on Christmas Day ruining my Christmas, my yard owners Christmas and the vets Christmas.


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## minesadouble (14 November 2015)

Doublethyme said:



			Glad I'm DIY, I don't find it acceptable to leave a horse not mucked out for 24 hours or longer even with turnout.   Without is appalling.

I do agree its up to the yard to set the parameters of what they can or can't provide, however unless this is clearly agreed and stated at time of agreeing contract for service,  so that livery know what to expect and provide cover accordingly, it is outrageous to just not provide contracted service like any other day.

Bet they don't give clients a discount on livery for services not provided!

The horses welfare should not be compromised.    As for the vet/accident excuse, that is just balderdash.    What about the higher likelihood of colic or stress related incidents because the horses have their normal routine disrupted.
		
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I can see why some would want their horses to be kept in their usual routine but to say standing in for one day not mucked out is a compromise to horse welfare is way over the top in my opinion.


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## Tiddlypom (14 November 2015)

conniegirl said:



			Mine is perfectly settled in his stable so at no greater risk of colic if he spends a day in and id really rather not invite a vet bill on Christmas Day ruining my Christmas, my yard owners Christmas and the vets Christmas.
		
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Vets tend to be rather busy at Christmas. Animals, (not just horses), are often given a different routine to fit in with their owner's festive plans, and hey ho, suffer as a result.

No one is 'entitled' to spend Christmas as they choose. They can 'elect' to spend it as they wish, which is another thing altogether.


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## eggs (14 November 2015)

Years ago when I was on full livery ( which was everything including riding) the horses were done as normal except they were't ridden.  A few years later I was DIY on a yard that also did part livery (everything done except exercise).  On Xmas day and Boxing Day the part liveries stayed in and were fed, hayed and watered and a bale of straw put in each day over the muck.  To be honest none of the horses seemed to be adversely affected.

I keep my horses at home now so they go out in the morning but come in at noon so that we can go to my family for lunch.

As long as the horse has hay, feed and water I don't feel it is really comprising their welfare.  However I also think it is something that needs to be told to perspective liveries before they join a yard.


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## BlackVelvet (14 November 2015)

Every yard i had been at used to ask people to do their own horses Christmas day to help out, was never a problem for me as they used to take it off my bill and i used to go up and ride anyway. I don't think it's a massive ask tbh. He was my horse and ultimately my responsibility! He was only on livery as i worked odd/late shifts and couldn't drive at the time.


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## charlie76 (14 November 2015)

The reason we leave in is that for the middle part of the day there is no one at the yard and myself and my staff want to spend a few hours with family ( as just once it's nice to put family before horses!) 
I do not turn out or leave horses out without staff there as a matter of course daily, I have full time staff that are there to grab horses in should their be an incident. They will not be there all day xams day so my liveries are happy to leave in. 
They really won't keel over from a couple of says days in as long as they are walked out in hand on one of the two days. 
I go to dressage camp for three or four days and they are in the whole time except the hour you have for a lesson and they cope. 
I would not leave horses not mucked out and we do muck out the full liveries both ends of the day on Xmas day and boxing day . 
It has worked perfectly well so far . 
And its not injuries I ' hide behind'. I am not so stupid to not know that an injury can happen in a box but let's be honest it's far more likely to happen in the field otherwise vets wouldn't ever suggest box rest for injuries. 
The issue of not an incident happening but the lack of anyone there to sort it and therefore the length of time before it is discovered. 
 When the horse broke its leg it was sheer luck anyone was there as we were just about to go home for dinner.


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## Equine_Dream (14 November 2015)

HashRouge said:



			Seriously???
The YO provides the service, it is up to them to decide what the terms of that service are. If they want to have a bit of a break on Christmas Day, that is 100% their prerogative. As a horse owner, if you know you will be away at Christmas, you need to make sure that full livery will be available on that day when you move onto the yard. According to you, the YO has to provide care on Christmas Day because they choose to run a full livery service...but the horse owner chooses to own a horse, they have to accept responsibility for that horse! I can understand keeping a horse on full livery, but I can't understand the absolute horror expressed by some posters on this thread that they might, one day a year, be expected to care for their own horse. If the YO wants to provide a full service on Christmas Day, fair enough. If not, that is their right so long as they give the owner plenty of notice, which they have done in the YO's case. 

Also, I don't understand why people seem to think the YO is compromising the welfare of the horses. They have simply said that they won't be mucking out on Christmas Day, but the owner is welcome to muck the horse out themselves or make alternate arrangements. 

Personally, I wouldn't just expect someone to muck my horse out on Christmas Day, full livery or no. If I knew I would be going away for Christmas, I would make sure I knew well in advance whether or not normal service was provided, so that I could make alternate arrangements if need be. But then again, maybe it's because I've worked as a full time groom and understand how hard people work in the equine industry, and for how little money.
		
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*applause*

You made the choice to have horses. Why cant you take some responsibility for them for just one day? You could swear the YO was totally refusing to give the horses any care at all. If you really are so bothered about the horses being mucked out or turned out then either do it yourself or move to another yard.


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## Luci07 (14 November 2015)

Little lack of Christmas spirit it would seem.  I accept someone working shifts might struggle but it can be worked around. I didn't turn mine out today. He was hacked this morning and has survived being in all day.


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## Fiona (14 November 2015)

I'd say its something that YOs should mention initially rather than later on. When I had my horse for three years on full livery my parents lived 300 miles away and as I was single I visited them for the festive period.  

Thankfully OP in this case seems to be able to go visit her horse and muck it out and/or turn out on xmas day..

And as an aside. .. I've had emergency vet visits on both xmas day and NY day because of turnout incidents   but we still turnout on those days if we are going to be at home and weather is suitable. . Think hubby might shoot the self harming TB himself if she does it again though ...

Fiona


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## Polar Bear9 (14 November 2015)

I work on two livery yards and have my own at a different yard. At my horses yard there are no services Christmas Eve, Xmas day, boxing day. At one of my work yards my friend is working at £10 an hour and I am helping. At the other I am doing Christmas Day freelance at a cost of £20 a horse. 

I understand that horses are not a 9-5 job and that they do not understand Christmas. However we work very hard, every day of the year come rain or shine for a very poor wage. Having one day off for family is hardly laziness, it's hardly inexcusable when everyone else is doing the same thing. I will be working for the money, it will pay for my families Christmas presents   

On Christmas day I will be getting up early and going to do my own horse. I will then be off to my first yard of the day to do the full liveries. I will then be going to the yard I am doing freelance to turn out, muck out and poo pick at least 7 horses. I will then be going back to the other yard to help my friend muck out more horses. I will pop back home (half an hour drive away) to catch Christmas lunch with my family then back to both yards to bring in and put to bed. I will then go to my own yard, ride and put mine to bed. 

I am doing that because I care about the horses and because I want their owners to have a day for themselves. I just hope they're grateful that I am giving up my day to care for their horses.


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## Theocat (14 November 2015)

Our yard is business as usual, except they come in at 2pm instead of 4pm. I'm on part/full and I'd absolutely expect services on Christmas Day - although I'd also be happy to pay a supplement. 

As someone who is single and lives hundreds of miles from the nearest family,  my Christmas would be pretty dire if I had to  stay home alone every Christmas in order to muck out. Taking responsibility for your horse means making sure the care gets done - not necessarily by you! - so frankly yards should make the most of it and charge what the service is worth.

As someone perfectly prepared to pay a fair price for livery, I have no sympathy for YOs  who undercharge all year then complain about delivering services at Christmas. Charge properly for a 365 service and pass your costs on! I'd be very much in favour of paying more to ensure good staff got a decent wage - all year round.


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## honetpot (14 November 2015)

I am a nurse and I have worked a lot at Christmas, when my kids where small etc. My family live 150 miles a way, some times you just can not go, tough. 
  I have used DIY most of my horse owning life, like most people if you really want something you do the work, no one apart from my daughters have ever done my horses, but one Christmas once we ended up doing four plus our own. I made sure my daughters got paid, but not nearly what they would have to pay a freelance groom. So no drink for me until last horses.
  If I work Christmas I get paid extra, if you go anywhere at Christmas its extra and I can not understand why anyone would not expect to pay extra for services at Christmas,
  If YO charged the going rate for the services there would be very few people who would want a horse. A posh coffee costs £2.25 and the glass of plonk you drink in a pub £3+, but every one seems to want to pay as little as possible for livery. Thank goodness I do not need to have liveries, and yes I will be doing my own Christmas day.


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## charlie76 (14 November 2015)

Theocat said:



			Our yard is business as usual, except they come in at 2pm instead of 4pm. I'm on part/full and I'd absolutely expect services on Christmas Day - although I'd also be happy to pay a supplement. 

As someone who is single and lives hundreds of miles from the nearest family,  my Christmas would be pretty dire if I had to  stay home alone every Christmas in order to muck out. Taking responsibility for your horse means making sure the care gets done - not necessarily by you! - so frankly yards should make the most of it and charge what the service is worth.

As someone perfectly prepared to pay a fair price for livery, I have no sympathy for YOs  who undercharge all year then complain about delivering services at Christmas. Charge properly for a 365 service and pass your costs on! I'd be very much in favour of paying more to ensure good staff got a decent wage - all year round.
		
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I think you may be in the minority here. We see plenty of posts on here of people already claiming the livery is too high. 
I'm sure if I go to the yard tomorrow and announce a big rise in livery to pay the staff more I won't be met with the best response sadly. 
And I think this is the case across a lot of yards , people don't want to pay what they really should unfortunately. 
If you compare livery price to putting a dog in the kennels, livery is far too cheap.


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## MuddyMonster (14 November 2015)

If it was full (or possibly part) livery, I'd be annoyed honesty. Full livery should mean full livery, regardless of the day. Yes, I can understand not turning out - but to refuse to muck out IMHO isn't acceptable.


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## windand rain (14 November 2015)

I cannot agree that any horse is more likely to injure itself in a field I have seen in 50 years of horse ownership both in and out far more illnesses and injuries from being stable too long than I have ever seen in a grass kept horse. only colic I have ever had was bringing a pony into a stable to wean its foal I should have stuck to instinct and done it in the field. To suggest vets recommend box rest to prevent injury is an total mis leading statement the only recommend it to restrict movement the same effect can be achieved in a small pen in a field weather permitting. Most injuries occur during ridden work and competeing, or maybe by bad pasture management allowing a horse to get caught in fencing or having holes in fields. Broken legs, a broken back, severe tears in tendons in more than one leg all caused by getting cast in a stable. One horse ripped its foot off under a stable door and bled to death I know there are injuries in fields usually happen when horses are first turned out after a period in a stable so they to can be attributed to stabling. for the last 10 years mine have lived out 24/7 touch wood without a single problem not even a small cut. They are settled rarely run about and are in a stable group so no kicking and biting


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## Limbo1 (14 November 2015)

My old yard (part livery) the owners clubbed together to give YO the day off. Those who did not go away helped. Ie 1 person turned out. 1 person brought in. Anyone else who could did what they could. So not a huge yard 15  horses all got done and turner out for a few hours. It was an unusual yard as the YO and groom treated the horses as their own, would groom pet and generally really look after the horses. This meant the liveries were so happy they would gibe the YO and groom time off. It was quite jolly, I only helped one year a family all far away but other liveries did not hold it against me!


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## Amicus (14 November 2015)

honetpot said:



			I am a nurse and I have worked a lot at Christmas, when my kids where small etc. My family live 150 miles a way, some times you just can not go, tough. 
  I have used DIY most of my horse owning life, like most people if you really want something you do the work, no one apart from my daughters have ever done my horses, but one Christmas once we ended up doing four plus our own. I made sure my daughters got paid, but not nearly what they would have to pay a freelance groom. So no drink for me until last horses.
  If I work Christmas I get paid extra, if you go anywhere at Christmas its extra and I can not understand why anyone would not expect to pay extra for services at Christmas,
  If YO charged the going rate for the services there would be very few people who would want a horse. A posh coffee costs £2.25 and the glass of plonk you drink in a pub £3+, but every one seems to want to pay as little as possible for livery. Thank goodness I do not need to have liveries, and yes I will be doing my own Christmas day.
		
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I think everyone is saying that they would be happy to pay extra for Christmas (or will do it themselves) but the issues is if they can't do it so there horse won't be turned out or mucked out. Even more of an issue for Criso who's full livery yard won't allow her to pay a freelance groom onsite to muck out give her horse a leg stretch.


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## charlie76 (15 November 2015)

windand rain said:



			I cannot agree that any horse is more likely to injure itself in a field I have seen in 50 years of horse ownership both in and out far more illnesses and injuries from being stable too long than I have ever seen in a grass kept horse. only colic I have ever had was bringing a pony into a stable to wean its foal I should have stuck to instinct and done it in the field. To suggest vets recommend box rest to prevent injury is an total mis leading statement the only recommend it to restrict movement the same effect can be achieved in a small pen in a field weather permitting. Most injuries occur during ridden work and competeing, or maybe by bad pasture management allowing a horse to get caught in fencing or having holes in fields. Broken legs, a broken back, severe tears in tendons in more than one leg all caused by getting cast in a stable. One horse ripped its foot off under a stable door and bled to death I know there are injuries in fields usually happen when horses are first turned out after a period in a stable so they to can be attributed to stabling. for the last 10 years mine have lived out 24/7 touch wood without a single problem not even a small cut. They are settled rarely run about and are in a stable group so no kicking and biting
		
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I am not going to alter my view or turn out on Christmas day. It's one day in. They stayed in today due to weather and were fine ( on owners request) 
Our horses have superb grazing,post and rail fencing and no holes! They do run about at times as they are all competition horses that are clipped and fit so are more likely to have a run about. 
The horse that broke is leg on Xmas day was also in a good field, with grass . she slipped whilst cantering over for hay. She was also out 24/7. 
But this post isn't about the wrongs and rights of turn out, what suits one doesn't suit the next. It's about Christmas day and I really don't think it harms to leave in for a couple of days to allow the hard working staff a few hours with their families on Xmas day . 
I do not agree with not mucking our but there are many horses that are barn kept and not mucked out daily that survive.


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## cloverpenny (15 November 2015)

When I worked on a riding school / livery yard all the liveries had to do their own horses on Christmas day and new years day.


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## criso (15 November 2015)

I should clarify that I wasn't just talking about my current yard but experiences at different yards over the last 8 years.   Where I am now horses can go out if you turn them out and bring them in yourself.  There are simply no services at all.  

And I'm on 5 day not full livery and I completely sympathise with the yard manager wanting  time off and not wanting to work Christmas and Boxing day. However I can't get there, as I said  not won't but can't.  Even if I did not join my family who live abroad and spent Christmas alone,  I get to the yard by train and they don't run.  

Problem is its a small mixed yard (4 other liveries as a couple of boxes empty), and I have 2 horses so it's a lot to ask someone to do them even if you offer to pay. And the emergency vet call out boxing day (when stabled) last year won't have helped.   On bigger yards it's easier to find people to swap favours with though still difficult.  It's easy to say move but there is no perfect yard and do I compromise on their care and environment all year for 2 days?

I completely understand the security concerns as I would have to give details of how various bits of the yard are secured to a complete stranger - how would you feel if I gave the code to where your saddle is kept to someone I'd found on facebook - but it may come to that.


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## SO1 (15 November 2015)

I agree, it is totally up to YO to decide what services they are willing to provide and when. If it is normally 7 day livery except for xmas and boxing day  then they need to be up front with potential customers and make it clear that they won't be providing those services on xmas and boxing day. If they also will not allow a freelance groom or non livery to come in and cover those days then they also need to be clear about that too. 

In Criso's situation where they are not offering any services so not even basics such as feeding and watering, I would sit down and have a chat with the YO and see if you can come up with an option that is acceptable to both of you, it might be that the YO knows a trusted freelancer or friend who would be willing to cover over xmas that she would allow on the yard. I think in your situation where you have two horses on the yard and you are a 5 day livery and there is empty boxes you are in a stronger case because your YO may not want to lose you as a customer and may give in and allow you to get a freelancer in or see if she would be willing to let you leave them out for a couple of days with loads of hay and then see if one of the other liveries would be willing to do a field check for you. If the freelancer doesn't ride then they may not need to be given the code to the tack room. Also if you were able to find out what times the other liveries were coming and were able to arrange your freelancer to come at the same times perhaps they would not need to know all the codes for getting on to the yard as the other liveries could let them in and lock up. The only other option I can think of would be to try and find a yard that takes on holiday liveries and book both horses in there for the time you are away - but this would probably be very expensive as you would be paying for livery at both yards and the holiday livery may have a minimum amount of time you have to stay there for such as a week. 

There are quite a lot of people who don't celebrate Christmas and would be pleased to work for extra money over the festive times, as they celebrate their religious holidays at a different time of year. Unfortunately a lot of these people who have different faiths or religions are from ethnic minorities which are very under represented in the horse world both as horse owners and working on yards.


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## twiggy2 (15 November 2015)

it is just another day for the horses and every yard i have worked at it is a fairly normal day, the YO has just done a late check and hay and the staff have left a couple of hours early


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## Limbo1 (15 November 2015)

Some people need to remember they are horses. In my opinion family always comes first. I also want to have a drink on xmas so driving to a yard a pain. When I was a kid it was a real bind and I would walk to the yard to do it as parents were having fun. This year we have horses at home but need to be away as family over from Australia. I am planning to leave them out, they are out mostly anyway. Leave plenty of hay in the feeder. They will be checked xmas eve am and then back late boxing day or following am. Farmer will cast eye over them when checking the sheep to make sure no legs hanging off. May sound a little unfeeling but they are animals not people. other animals the same, chickens locked in a large stable with lots of food and water. Cats big pile of food and water. All survive quite happily.


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## Amicus (15 November 2015)

Limbo1 said:



			Some people need to remember they are horses. In my opinion family always comes first. I also want to have a drink on xmas so driving to a yard a pain. When I was a kid it was a real bind and I would walk to the yard to do it as parents were having fun. This year we have horses at home but need to be away as family over from Australia. I am planning to leave them out, they are out mostly anyway. Leave plenty of hay in the feeder. They will be checked xmas eve am and then back late boxing day or following am. Farmer will cast eye over them when checking the sheep to make sure no legs hanging off. May sound a little unfeeling but they are animals not people. other animals the same, chickens locked in a large stable with lots of food and water. Cats big pile of food and water. All survive quite happily.
		
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I think this is completely fine, it's horses being left in without even a leg stretch or a skip out.


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## ChesnutsRoasting (15 November 2015)

Emmangel said:



			Just being nosey here, what do other peoples' yards do at Christmas.  

My yard have said they will feed, hay and water only - no turn out or mucking out on Christmas Day and New years Day (full livery yard). Is that normal ?  

I will turn out/muck out myself rather than leaving the horses in pooh all day.  I know it's everybody's Christmas but I would expect my horses to be skipped out.  Am I being a bah humbug ??
		
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Yes, you're being a bah humbug! Embrace horse ownership, even if it is for only 2 days a year.


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## gnubee (15 November 2015)

Mine are at home so not an issue, but I would be very unimpressed with full livery being basically every day except the one where it would be really hard / expensive to get cover. Unless it's made really clear upfront I would expect service as usual. Maybe not riding/ training services and ok with skip out over muck out, no rug changes etc, but the essentials that mean an owner can still choose whether they want to come up or not rather than feeling like they have to should happen regardless of what day it is. mine would go crazy with over 24 hours in so I would consider turnout a required essential. 
Yes, your horse's care is your responsibility but paying for full livery is taking responsibility for the care and in taking on full liveries the YO should therefore be making sure that they/ their staff / some other contractor can provide the required service every day and factor that into their regular rates. Great if liveries can lighten the load at Christmas but that should be as a gesture of kindness from those who wish to offer it , not a scheduled plan of inadequate service.


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## YorksG (15 November 2015)

I often wonder how much people would find to be fair rate per week for full livery, and if they would accept double time being asked for all bank holidays, even if spread out over the year. I used to work in residential child care, many years ago, and the LA found that they had to start paying for bankholidays and overtime, as otherwise they couldn't get people to apply for the jobs. Until people are prepared to pay enough for Yard owners to pay staff properly and make a pofit, then this sort of problem will continue. To those people who say their family live away etc. it is always possible that this is the case  for yard staff too, do you not think?


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## Copperpot (15 November 2015)

At the time I was full livery it was £185 a week. I paid extra for Xmas day. Not for other bank holidays though. I wouldn't have minded. I work a fair few bank holidays and get double time so wouldn't mind paying more to have my horse looked after.


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## SO1 (15 November 2015)

That works out at about just over £800 which is quite a lot of money - just wondering what you got for that. Did it include exercise, tack cleaning, grooming as in traditional full livery or was it more like part livery without grooming and exercise? What facilities did you get as well. 



Copperpot said:



			At the time I was full livery it was £185 a week. I paid extra for Xmas day. Not for other bank holidays though. I wouldn't have minded. I work a fair few bank holidays and get double time so wouldn't mind paying more to have my horse looked after.
		
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## criso (15 November 2015)

YorksG said:



			if they would accept double time being asked for all bank holidays
		
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What I offered to pay the last two years for Christmas and  boxing day was just over 3 x the usual daily livery rate.


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## YorksG (15 November 2015)

Copperpot said:



			At the time I was full livery it was £185 a week. I paid extra for Xmas day. Not for other bank holidays though. I wouldn't have minded. I work a fair few bank holidays and get double time so wouldn't mind paying more to have my horse looked after.
		
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Minimum wage, for about 3 hours a day (assuming staff groom and exercise) per horse, on seven days full livery is 157 pounds, leaves 28 pounds for feed, bedding,, maintenance and any profit for the yard!


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## Copperpot (15 November 2015)

SO1 said:



			That works out at about just over £800 which is quite a lot of money - just wondering what you got for that. Did it include exercise, tack cleaning, grooming as in traditional full livery or was it more like part livery without grooming and exercise? What facilities did you get as well.
		
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That included everything except shoes and feed. Tack cleaning, exercise etc


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## Copperpot (15 November 2015)

YorksG said:



			Minimum wage, for about 3 hours a day (assuming staff groom and exercise) per horse, on seven days full livery is 157 pounds, leaves 28 pounds for feed, bedding,, maintenance and any profit for the yard!
		
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I had to provide his feed. It was a small yard with only 2 people running it. That was the price they set, so can only assume they were happy with it.


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## Leo Walker (15 November 2015)

YorksG said:



			Minimum wage, for about 3 hours a day (assuming staff groom and exercise) per horse, on seven days full livery is 157 pounds, leaves 28 pounds for feed, bedding,, maintenance and any profit for the yard!
		
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How many people have full livery including exercise though? Mine gets turned out on a morning for me and it takes me about 30 mins to muck out, do waters, hay, feeds and bring in. 

I know when I was working with horses for a living I was phenomenally fit and incredibly efficient. I used to muck out and turn out a yard of 14, with another person, in an hour. They were on minimal bedding and rubber mats which helped a bit, as well as automatic waters, but mainly it was set up to be easy and we just got on with it. Probably took us 3 hours to do the yard over the course of a day, including hay and feeds etc.


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## Copperpot (15 November 2015)

He was only exercised 5 days a week. And I certainly wouldn't expect that Xmas day. But he was turned out which I did want.


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## Theocat (16 November 2015)

YorksG said:



			Until people are prepared to pay enough for Yard owners to pay staff properly and make a pofit, then this sort of problem will continue. To those people who say their family live away etc. it is always possible that this is the case  for yard staff too, do you not think?
		
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If you choose to offer full livery, you should price it properly and staff it as required - exactly as any other service industry does. If you choose to work with horses,  you accept you are entering  365 day a year industry - just like nurses, fireman, hospitality and catering, care ...

If people choose to keep horses,  it ought to be open to them to pay for support when they need it to make ownership possible, because that's a service people ought to be able to make a living on.

From comments on this thread, the issue doesn't seem to be that people are unwilling to pay, it seems to be that YOs are unwilling to charge - and for an industry that finds it so difficult to run at a profit, I find this whole discussion pretty extraordinary.


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## conniegirl (16 November 2015)

Theocat said:



			From comments on this thread, the issue doesn't seem to be that people are unwilling to pay, it seems to be that YOs are unwilling to charge - and for an industry that finds it so difficult to run at a profit, I find this whole discussion pretty extraordinary.
		
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No, experience and basic market knowledge shows that the customer is unwilling to pay the rate that would be needed which is often around £300 a week. Particularly when other yards are charging half of that. If you charge what u need to pay staff properly and still make a profit then you end up with an empty yard.


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## Sussexbythesea (16 November 2015)

conniegirl said:



			No, experience and basic market knowledge shows that the customer is unwilling to pay the rate that would be needed which is often around £300 a week. Particularly when other yards are charging half of that. If you charge what u need to pay staff properly and still make a profit then you end up with an empty yard.
		
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 £300 a week is "needed" ? It can't be "needed" as otherwise it would have to be charged. But I see people on here paying about £80 a week for 7 day part livery now surely that is ridiculous? I pay a friend on my yar £12 a day Mon-fri to do my horse which is muck out, turn out, bring in, pick feet out, change rugs, feed and check over. With my DIY livery stabling costs, feed, bedding etc. it costs me £540 a month. So she makes £60 a week just for my horse and has no overheads out of that as she is already there to do her own horses. 
I've always been willing to pay decent money but paying more doesn't necessarily mean a better service IME.


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## pepsimaxrock (16 November 2015)

One day not getting mucked out is not going to kill the horse.

This


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## Goldenstar (16 November 2015)

YorksG said:



			I often wonder how much people would find to be fair rate per week for full livery, and if they would accept double time being asked for all bank holidays, even if spread out over the year. I used to work in residential child care, many years ago, and the LA found that they had to start paying for bankholidays and overtime, as otherwise they couldn't get people to apply for the jobs. Until people are prepared to pay enough for Yard owners to pay staff properly and make a pofit, then this sort of problem will continue. To those people who say their family live away etc. it is always possible that this is the case  for yard staff too, do you not think?
		
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I pay my free lancers triple time for Christmas Day and double for boxing and New Year's Day .


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## conniegirl (16 November 2015)

Sussexbythesea said:



			£300 a week is "needed" ? It can't be "needed" as otherwise it would have to be charged. But I see people on here paying about £80 a week for 7 day part livery now surely that is ridiculous? I pay a friend on my yar £12 a day Mon-fri to do my horse which is muck out, turn out, bring in, pick feet out, change rugs, feed and check over. With my DIY livery stabling costs, feed, bedding etc. it costs me £540 a month. So she makes £60 a week just for my horse and has no overheads out of that as she is already there to do her own horses. 
I've always been willing to pay decent money but paying more doesn't necessarily mean a better service IME.
		
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I have no idea how the £80 part livery places do it, I can only assume they don't have staff or a mortgage and scrimp on things like insurance, quality of bedding and forage etc.
Paying staff legal minimum wage plus employers ni contribution, plus the new pension contributions, plus electricity, water, council tax, care custody and control insurance, employers liability insurance, mortgage, repairs and maintenance, hay, bedding, feed, cost of an outdoor or indoor school, council tax on the commercial property and then for the YO to make a small profit.
Legal minimum wage leads to high staff turnover and dissatisfaction so if you want to pay them a living wage it is even more
When we put a business plan together for a yard we just couldn't make the numbers work for much less than £300 a week, no one will pay that so we didn't bother.

Your friend can do it for £60 a week because she has no overheads, she doesn't have to pay ni on top or a pension or the various insurances.


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## Goldenstar (16 November 2015)

Sussexbythesea said:



			£300 a week is "needed" ? It can't be "needed" as otherwise it would have to be charged. But I see people on here paying about £80 a week for 7 day part livery now surely that is ridiculous? I pay a friend on my yar £12 a day Mon-fri to do my horse which is muck out, turn out, bring in, pick feet out, change rugs, feed and check over. With my DIY livery stabling costs, feed, bedding etc. it costs me £540 a month. So she makes £60 a week just for my horse and has no overheads out of that as she is already there to do her own horses. 
I've always been willing to pay decent money but paying more doesn't necessarily mean a better service IME.
		
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If you are giving a quality service with good facilities £80 a week for part livery is madness the yard are not making a profit on that .


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## pepsimaxrock (16 November 2015)

One day not getting mucked out is not going to kill the horse.

This


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## unicornystar (16 November 2015)

really???

I would expect to go up and do my horse myself on all national bank holidays!!

You are lucky they are feeding etc!!


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## Sussexbythesea (16 November 2015)

conniegirl said:



			I have no idea how the £80 part livery places do it, I can only assume they don't have staff or a mortgage and scrimp on things like insurance, quality of bedding and forage etc.
Paying staff legal minimum wage plus employers ni contribution, plus the new pension contributions, plus electricity, water, council tax, care custody and control insurance, employers liability insurance, mortgage, repairs and maintenance, hay, bedding, feed, cost of an outdoor or indoor school, council tax on the commercial property and then for the YO to make a small profit.
Legal minimum wage leads to high staff turnover and dissatisfaction so if you want to pay them a living wage it is even more
When we put a business plan together for a yard we just couldn't make the numbers work for much less than £300 a week, no one will pay that so we didn't bother.

Your friend can do it for £60 a week because she has no overheads, she doesn't have to pay ni on top or a pension or the various insurances.
		
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I pay for most of the overheads you mention out of the £150 per month DIY livery charge which pays for the box and electricity, water etc. and buy all my hay and bedding and feed myself and it still comes to £540 and that is with no restriction on bedding or forage. It's up to my friend to sort out her tax and NI as she is basically freelancing. 

I'm not saying that a proper 7 day livery service wouldn't need to charge more (I've certainly paid more) but it's not true to say £300 a week is always needed because if it was truly needed 95% of liverys wouldn't operate but they do. 

I am in full agreement that £80 a week is a ridiculously low price to charge and find it difficult to see how anyone makes any money but I guess farms where there is no mortgage, they cut their own hay and have their own straw and maybe have lower rates might be able to achieve a small profit. Or if people just have one or two as a side-line to subsidise their own. 

Anyway I'm all for paying a good price for a good service.


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## Wagtail (16 November 2015)

I run a small yard on my own. It is all full livery. Christmas day is the same as any other day as far as the horses are concerned. I turnout and muck out as usual. This is a sacrifice I knew I would have to make when I decided to run a full livery service, along with zero holidays or weekends off. Most Christmas I also cook the 'full works' for ten people, although I serve it as an evening meal rather than lunch. It might be different if I ran a large yard and needed to hire staff, as I think this might well pose problems.


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## Sussexbythesea (16 November 2015)

unicornystar said:



			really???

I would expect to go up and do my horse myself on all national bank holidays!!

You are lucky they are feeding etc!!
		
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What livery arrangements do you have for your horse(s)?


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## Copperpot (16 November 2015)

Not everyone gets all bank holidays off work! If you do then fine, but if you don't, you pay for someone else to do it.


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## Theocat (16 November 2015)

For those who say "do it yourself", what about owners who are nurses, etc and can't do the horse because they work Christmas day?


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## YorksG (16 November 2015)

Copperpot said:



			Not everyone gets all bank holidays off work! If you do then fine, but if you don't, you pay for someone else to do it.
		
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Fine in theoy, but obviously it doesn't work out, if no-one is willing to work those days! 
These livey threads always confirm for me that we did the right thing when we left livery and then after doing some-one a favour by allowing some-one to put a pony on our land, making the decision that we would only ever have our own horses on our land! It does help that all our horses are jointly owned between me and Sis, so we have always managed to do our own, except for a couple of winters when we had oldies and paid a freelancer to put them out after we had gone to work.
Having a horse is not a right and IMO you can only have one if you can guarantee that either you can meet it's needs, or that you can guarantee that some-one else can. I have worked many bank holidays over my career and some flipping long days, but have made sacrifices overall to keep the life style I chose.


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## cronkmooar (16 November 2015)

There have been previous threads on here about DIY liveries who leave a horse stood in, not mucked out and just get someone to top up water and throw in hay, and there has been outrage!

It seems to be a different story when its the YM/YO - who, lets face it, is actually getting paid to look after the horse.

Personally, I think its not on for anyone to leave a horse stood in its own crap for 36 hours.

If you don't want to provide full livery 365 days a year, don't offer full livery as a service.

Yes, it is Christmas day, but there are people who work that day and other public holidays, and that is the reason they use a full livery service.


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## ihatework (16 November 2015)

cronkmooar said:



			There have been previous threads on here about DIY liveries who leave a horse stood in, not mucked out and just get someone to top up water and throw in hay, and there has been outrage!

It seems to be a different story when its the YM/YO - who, lets face it, is actually getting paid to look after the horse.

Personally, I think its not on for anyone to leave a horse stood in its own crap for 36 hours.

If you don't want to provide full livery 365 days a year, don't offer full livery as a service.

Yes, it is Christmas day, but there are people who work that day and other public holidays, and that is the reason they use a full livery service.
		
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PRECISELY!!

If you run full livery then it's a business. It is up to the YO/YM to plan what services are on offer, when those services are on offer and to then price their services accordingly and specify what their client is purchasing in the contract.

Full livery clients are generally on full livery for a reason. They don't have to justify that reason to anyone and it's not their fault if a yard doesn't factor in attractive pay to have staff work bank holidays.

Don't get me wrong - I'm one of the most involved/pro active full livery clients around. I will be doing my horse Christmas morning - but because I want to, not because I have to!


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## twiggy2 (16 November 2015)

This thread has been playing on my mind, as always there are differing ideas as to what full livery is, for me there are the following liveries options;

full ridden livery=everything done including riding and owner pops up as and when/rides when/if they like.

full schooling livery as above with schooling at the level needed

full livery=as above with no exercise

part livery what ever is arranged between horse owner and provider of livery services, so 5 day livery or am or pm livery for example

DIY with services, a do it yourself yard with someone available to help out when it is needed and convienient.

DIY=sort your own horses care yourself-no one on the yard available to help out but owners can help each other if needed.

For me all the full livery options are similar to care homes for people, if you are in the caring or animal sector then you are rota'd on to work your share of high days and bank holidays if there are people/animals that need your care and it is your turn then you work. 
The work load can be reduced by haynets all being made up/fresh water being placed outside every stable the evening before/ bedding being placed outside stables etc
Never have I left horses in because it is Christmas day, they get turned out early and then bought in early (minimum of 7hrs out) and then an extra late check and rehay/water last thing.
I don't get the ditching of responsibilities because it is a high day, Full livery is full livery and it is the responsibility of the provider of that service to make sure there is adequate cover for the holiday period


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## Copperpot (16 November 2015)

YorksG said:



			Fine in theoy, but obviously it doesn't work out, if no-one is willing to work those days! 
These livey threads always confirm for me that we did the right thing when we left livery and then after doing some-one a favour by allowing some-one to put a pony on our land, making the decision that we would only ever have our own horses on our land! It does help that all our horses are jointly owned between me and Sis, so we have always managed to do our own, except for a couple of winters when we had oldies and paid a freelancer to put them out after we had gone to work.
Having a horse is not a right and IMO you can only have one if you can guarantee that either you can meet it's needs, or that you can guarantee that some-one else can. I have worked many bank holidays over my career and some flipping long days, but have made sacrifices overall to keep the life style I chose.
		
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I have my own place now and pay a freelance lady plus my OH will help. They live out also, so if I don't finish work til 9am and feed then it's not an issue.


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## windand rain (16 November 2015)

So all you people who say do it yourself on christmas day if you planned a holiday abroad over christmas and put you dog in kennels you would be happy for your dog to stand in **** and not go for a walk on christmas day. Same thing to me you pay for an animal to be cared for therefore it should be cared for the same on christmas day as any other day of the year.


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## Embo (16 November 2015)

It's one of the first questions I asked when I moved to my current yard last November! I'm grateful that the answer turned out to be 'Christmas day & new years day are business as usual - they are just another day.'!

They do everything as normal, which I am grateful for, but I still come up in the morning and muck out my own stable. And to give YO a bottle of fizz & box of chocs! I would have no problem whatsoever if they didn't do livery - I would be more than happy to come and do my own horse & offer to help with others if needed. 

When I was on DIY, a few of us joined forces for the day. One person came in the am to feed and turnout. Second person came in the afternoon to bring in and lunch hay. Third person came in the eve to feed dinner, hay and put to bed. You would muck out your own stable when you were there. All haynets and feeds made up in advance. Agreed horses could stay in turnout rugs. This worked out quite well for us. 

I have also worked on Christmas & new year when I was a working pupil. Pretty much business as usual except no riding lessons and we only had to do a half day. We agreed amongst ourselves who would do the first shift and who would do the second, then do the reverse on new years day. I felt lucky to do 8-1 on Christmas. No extra pay. 

I don't like the whole 'horses not mucked out' thing. This just seems so wrong to me - especially if you have a mucky beast like mine, he'd look like a rescue case after only 8 hours!! Let alone 24/36!


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## Abi90 (16 November 2015)

cronkmooar said:



			Yes, it is Christmas day, but there are people who work that day and other public holidays, and that is the reason they use a full livery service.
		
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This^^

I'm working Christmas and new year. I would
Love to be able to see my horse on those days but my employer has decided I'm working. I've also worked several other bank holidays this year. I don't get paid more either, I get days in lieu.


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## anuvb (16 November 2015)

All the decent full livery yards I have been or worked on, have mucked out on xmas day. But turnout has been down to the owners. The staff take it in shifts and work it out between them like any other business that needs to run over Xmas.  

Have only ever had one yard where it wasn't done and it caused no end of problems as wasn't in my contract and had no idea until after I had planned to go away to family. I left soon after. I can cope with no turn out but a quick skip out if I am still paying for the service doesn't seem unreasonable for a paying client.


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## anuvb (16 November 2015)

For those of you that say you would have to pay extra for xmas and bank holiday cover.  Do you not factor that in to your overall costs and spread that across the year so that you can then pay staff double time or whatever it is over Xmas?  That's how any other business would do it.


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## Auslander (16 November 2015)

I dont think it's unreasonable for people who pay for full livery to expect that their horse will get the basics done on Christmas Day.
Mine are all full liveries - albeit they live out, and it wouldnt occur to me to say "Oh, as it's Christmas, I'm buggering off down to Devon to see my family - look after your own horses". My liveries pay for their horses to be looked after the same every day, and that's what they will get. I may not skip out the hardstanding paddocks, but that's the only thing that might be let slip.
If I was to go away, I would pay a freelancer to do the horses, rather than expecting owners to do them


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## shadowboy (16 November 2015)

Some years ago I had a horse on full livery. There was no turnout that day, this from what I understand is normal- many yards don't turn out xmas day firstly due to time- everything is done with tighter time restraints and staff numbers they were also lower on staff so 40 horses were done between 4 instead of 6 staff. I didn't mind as it was Christmas and my horse won't disintegrate in his stable. There were no rug changes and everything was just walked round the yard 'island' 2x on each rein both morning and night whilst one other member of staff skipped out the stable. I also paid £10 extra that month on my bill. I'm totally ok with that and in fact I think I tipped the staff too. Everyone needs time off at some point so some staff had their with family so totally understand skimming the team down for Christmas.


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## EventingMum (16 November 2015)

In over 25 years of having a yard I have never once had a livery client complain about their horses not being turned out on Christmas Day, some do actually get a leg stretch in the school while they're mucked out but don't get out to the fields. Some liveries actually turn up and help muck out which is nice - a couple of times one has even stayed for Christmas Dinner! Surely in the season of good will it's all about give and take, most horses don't come to any harm having a day in and it allows YOs to have a little family time. It's not like one yard I knew where every single Monday horses were left in, not mucked out and all thrown a scoop of mix irrespective of their normal feed as it was the day of for the owner and staff.

As others have said the profit margins on livery aren't big and for many YOs it's a lifestyle not a job. Very few owners could afford to pay the costs required to generate what other businesses would consider an acceptable profit. It's all very well saying don't run a yard if it doesn't make enough money but if all YOs did that there would be a crisis for horse owners without their own land and horses would suffer.


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## Clodagh (16 November 2015)

The yard I used to work at did full livery (no turn out) on Christmas Day. BUT the YO also did a huge breakfast bbq to which a lot of owners went and they all mucked in and did their own horses, as a treat to the YO. Not expected, but much appreciated.


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## jules9203 (16 November 2015)

I run a livery yard with full, part and DIY liveries. All the horses will go out as normal. If the owners want something extra from the norm on Xmas and Boxing day then I charge double. When I had my horses on part livery I used to go up and muck them out etc on Xmas morning to help out. they were always turned out then as well.


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## Equine_Dream (16 November 2015)

windand rain said:



			So all you people who say do it yourself on christmas day if you planned a holiday abroad over christmas and put you dog in kennels you would be happy for your dog to stand in **** and not go for a walk on christmas day. Same thing to me you pay for an animal to be cared for therefore it should be cared for the same on christmas day as any other day of the year.
		
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No I wouldnt be happy for any animal of mine to stand in its own crap all day so therefore I would either ensure it was placed with somewhere that DOES offer the same service over christmas or I wouldnt book a holiday over christmas. Its tough but then thats the choice I made by choosing to have horses....


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## charlie76 (16 November 2015)

I would just add for the people that were pulling me up. At my yard the fulll liveries are done as usual but do not get turned out. Part liveries do their own but this is stated in the contract . 

Witn regards go full livery costs I do agree that full livery is very under priced in comparison with kennels and catteries.
I do think that people assume that yard owners are taking it in with full liveries but I don't think everyone really understands the costs of actually running a yard and the over heads. 
Just off the top of my head....
Rent
Public liability insurance
Employers liability insurance
Vehicle insurance and tax
Petrol
Business rates
Water
Electric
Staff wages
Hay
Bedding
Feed
Muck removal
Staff training
General maintenance
Fence repairs
Field maintenance
Tack cleaning equipment


So at an average cost of 160 per week ( ex exercise) it works out at 22.79 per day. 

A large dog at a kennels is on average 16 per day and next to no out goings. 

Maybe the answer is to charge more.. Around 35 per day but would anyone really be willing to pay 245 per week for full livery without exercise? 

There is a huge media discussion at the moment about lack of people wanting to work with horses, the reason being is the pay and hours and bad , the reason for that 
Is simply that owners don't want to or can't afford to pay what it really should be for the yard owners to make a decent living.


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## MotherOfChickens (16 November 2015)

charlie76 said:



			the reason for that 
Is simply that owners don't want to or can't afford to pay what it really should be for the yard owners to make a decent living.
		
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^^ this, in spades.

How much is full (i.e. including exercise) in the SE currently out of interest, anyone?


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## Luci07 (16 November 2015)

MotherOfChickens said:



			^^ this, in spades.

How much is full (i.e. including exercise) in the SE currently out of interest, anyone?
		
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.

Around 750 pm although I did know someone on part who was paying over £1000 as he was just on the outskirts of London. Still doubt the yard would have made huge profits though as the rent on that place must have been horrendous!

I moved from part to assisted to save money and it has halved my livery bill. However, my new yard has liveries because she likes us, owns her own land so while it is all run properly, she isn't paying a huge amount in rent each month. I was on a small yard previously and my horse was taken very good care of but when I had a candid conversation with my YO, it was pretty clear that this was a lifestyle choice. She made more money teaching. Full liveries are few and far between as well. Its a catch 22. As horse owners, we all make huge sacrifices in time and money to pay for our horses yet your average YO doesn't see huge money on each client.  Looking after horses is mostly a repetitive chore so doesn't pay well, yet you need someone with the experience and knowledge to take care of your pride and joy. Long way of saying... as a livery, I never did begrudge and never will, helping out on Christmas Day. I will assume mine will not go out on Christmas day but I will do him as normal in the morning. I will exercise him but have no expectations of my YO bringing him in later for me.


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## SO1 (18 November 2015)

I don't think you can really compare a part livery yard to kennels and catteries as they are more like the equivalent of taking your horse to a holiday livery yard and the dogs will need to be exercised every day too.

I think the costs of running a yard are not fixed and for £245 a week for full livery without exercise you would be including a full groom every day plus tacking cleaning every day and services such as mane pulling and clipping, which a lot of people would not require as if they are exercising their own horse they probably have time to groom and tack clean too.

How much rent and rates etc would depend on what facilities you have for example indoor schools usually mean more rates/higher rents, if you have a cross country course then maintaining that is more expensive.

With regard to staff training, if people have worked with horses before it won't take them long to learn how to fill haynets, muck out stables etc.

A top competition yard where there are big horses are on individual turnout and there is an indoor school and the horses don't go out for very long so need more mucking out/hay/feed yes I can see can see being very costly but most full livery yards are not like that and have lower out goings. If the horses spend most of the day in field the cost of hay and bedding can be reduced and time taken to muck out is less too. If they are more leisure horses in light work they can have fibre based feeds which are not so expensive and don't need huge amounts of hay.

Grooming/riding/cleaning tack every day is time consuming but the basic horse care should not be that time consuming if well managed. In you are looking after several horses you will probably benefit from the economies of scale. Hay and bedding does not need to be hugely expensive if cleverly sourced and and bought in bulk.

I think there is also a bit of difference in what people call full and part livery. I am 7 day part livery and that is everything but grooming/exercise and tack cleaning. My pony is very clean and on the deep litter system so only needs the wet taken out once a month but poos taken out twice a day. He also only eats a small amount of un-mollassed chaff mixed with his supplements and as he is prone to weight gain cannot have ad-lib hay so has to have soaked hay in a greedy net. He is on group turnout and normally they TO/CI two at a time and field not far from yard so does not take long to catch in. I do not pay anywhere near £245 a week {and could not afford to do so}and that includes 365 day care including going in the field on xmas day as normal.

Yards are not charities and most must be breaking even otherwise they would not be able to be run long term. If yards can offer DIY for around £150 a month then surely it would not cost an extra £800 a month to feed and provide basic care for a horse on top of that unless the horses are eating huge amounts of food and getting through a bale of shavings a day and you are paying for more highly skilled staff than you actually need.



charlie76 said:



			I would just add for the people that were pulling me up. At my yard the fulll liveries are done as usual but do not get turned out. Part liveries do their own but this is stated in the contract . 

Witn regards go full livery costs I do agree that full livery is very under priced in comparison with kennels and catteries.
I do think that people assume that yard owners are taking it in with full liveries but I don't think everyone really understands the costs of actually running a yard and the over heads. 
Just off the top of my head....
Rent
Public liability insurance
Employers liability insurance
Vehicle insurance and tax
Petrol
Business rates
Water
Electric
Staff wages
Hay
Bedding
Feed
Muck removal
Staff training
General maintenance
Fence repairs
Field maintenance
Tack cleaning equipment


So at an average cost of 160 per week ( ex exercise) it works out at 22.79 per day. 

A large dog at a kennels is on average 16 per day and next to no out goings. 

Maybe the answer is to charge more.. Around 35 per day but would anyone really be willing to pay 245 per week for full livery without exercise? 

There is a huge media discussion at the moment about lack of people wanting to work with horses, the reason being is the pay and hours and bad , the reason for that 
Is simply that owners don't want to or can't afford to pay what it really should be for the yard owners to make a decent living.
		
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## dibbin (18 November 2015)

We're DIY at the moment but I was full livery years ago (and worked on that yard). On Christmas day the full livery horses got fed, watered and hayed in the morning and the evening. Extra bedding on Christmas Eve, thorough muck out on Boxing Day. If you wanted to turn out/muck out then you had to do it yourself, which nobody ever had a problem with. I always mucked out but didn't generally turn out so horse wasn't left out on his own if others were brought in earlier.

The last yard I was at before my current one offered livery service on Christmas day but they charged double the normal rate, which I thought was fair enough.


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## zandp (18 November 2015)

When I had 1 on part livery I happily paid a premium for Xmas Day and Boxing Day so I could go and spend the holiday with my family.  When I got back the other livery on the yard told me the YO had asked her to look after my horse instead - and she didn't get any of the premium I'd paid so not at all honest/trustworthy.  

I've been on DIY for years now and arrange with another livery for them to do Xmas Day evening and Boxing Day morning so I can get to see family or have a drink and a hangover at home, I always do theirs for them instead Xmas Day morning.  I do try and leave them out but last year Somerset was a bit wet and turnover was stopped over Xmas as the fields were flooded at the yard.


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## Annagain (18 November 2015)

I'm on DIY so not affected, but find it incredible that YOs don't factor in the added cost of Christmas (or all bank holidays for that matter) into their business plans and charges. Many people choose full livery because they work irregular hours, including Christmas Day and other bank holidays and simply CAN'T be there to do their horses. 

Any other business, a care home for example, doesn't just stop providing care on Christmas Day or hold residents to ransom by suddenly demanding double for a service they can't say no to. If they add £5 a week onto the livery charge, that will provide an extra £260 a year per horse to cover double pay for the 8 Bank Holidays (so an extra £32.50 per horse per bank holiday). This way they treat their staff and their clients fairly. 

If they're a one man band, then sorry but tough. If that's the career you've chosen you have to take the rough with the smooth. My husband is a police officer. I think he last had Christmas day off in 2012. He has his first New Year's Eve off (not a bank holiday so doesn't get paid extra to work the one night nobody wants to work) in about 6 years this year and I'm in work at 7am on New Year's Day so we can't really do much. You just deal with it. 

Some friends of mine run a restaurant, husband out front and wife in the kitchen. They haven't had a Christmas Day off for 20 years. They shut the restaurant on Boxing Day and have their family Christmas then. They get one week off in January. The wife had to continue working through chemotherapy as they're a small restaurant and she's the only one in the kitchen. When you're self employed it's what you have to do. 

There are ways to make it easier - don't change rugs on Christmas Eve or Christmas Night. Make up haynets and feeds in advance, even give double water on Christmas Eve if saving that little extra bit of time matters. I'd be happy with some extra bedding in Christmas Eve and a quick skip out and tidy up if the horses were turned out on Christmas Day.

ETA Our YO actually offers an enhanced service on Christmas Day as she'll bring them all in if we muck out in the morning. She lives on site so is there anyway and it means we can have a drink with lunch and not worry about going back up. Its the one day of the year she does it without charging. There are only 9 of us though and the winter field is right next to the stables so it only takes 5 minutes.


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## alainax (18 November 2015)

Really good post Annagain. I am on full livery, have been at 2 different yards, and there is no issues with christmas or bank holidays. One was just full liveries, the other with a mix of diy, part, full and riding school ponies. The school ponies still need to be done, so the full liveries are done then also. I dont mind if they have one day where their stable is a bit deeper or messier, or rugs are not changed etc. 

In saying that, I think if you have been DIY all year, it might be a bit cheeky to then ask to be full on christmas day, and hope to pay the same as you would pay for extra services on any other day.


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## WandaMare (18 November 2015)

I don't have my horse on livery now, but when I did I didn't begrudge the yard owner having time with their family on Xmas day, Xmas is the only time some families ever manage to get together. The yard I was on actually closed on Xmas day and all the horses would be kept in for the day, it never seemed to do mine any harm. She was very happy there and the yard owner was available pretty much every other day of the year so I think she deserved one day off!


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## EventingMum (18 November 2015)

With regard to costings for livery the reason many DIY yards are so cheap is because many have started livery as a sideline on agricultural or former agricultural premises and don't pay commercial rates. I know 5 yards in my area that are like this and it's hard to compete against them. Many also take short cuts with insurance and other things so there's no way to compete with them cost wise


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## SO1 (18 November 2015)

Well I am now starting to feel very lucky that normal services will be offered on xmas and boxing day for the 7 day part liveries.

The horses will be turned out as normal and then YO and Head Girl will come back after their xmas lunch to catch in and put to bed the part livery horses and their own horses as normal unless the owners decide they want to come up and help out. Assisted DIY's and 5 day part liveries will need to look after their own horses or help each other out.


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## Luci07 (18 November 2015)

Well oddly enough my (new YO) stopped me tonight to discuss Christmas Day. As far she was concerned it was business as usual.  However, us liveries (we are on assisted DIY) said we would do horses as normal in the am, double net/spare hay and leave in. YO will feed in the evening and check but we said we would leave the horses in. Getting our lot in is the worst job atm. I honestly don't see why people have an issue with helping out (unless they really can't get there or are on shifts). I might feel differently if I met a livery yard owner who made a lot of money out of me!


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## honetpot (18 November 2015)

SO1 said:



			I don't think you can really compare a part livery yard to kennels and catteries as they are more like the equivalent of taking your horse to a holiday livery yard and the dogs will need to be exercised every day too.

I think the costs of running a yard are not fixed and for £245 a week for full livery without exercise you would be including a full groom every day plus tacking cleaning every day and services such as mane pulling and clipping, which a lot of people would not require as if they are exercising their own horse they probably have time to groom and tack clean too.

How much rent and rates etc would depend on what facilities you have for example indoor schools usually mean more rates/higher rents, if you have a cross country course then maintaining that is more expensive.

With regard to staff training, if people have worked with horses before it won't take them long to learn how to fill haynets, muck out stables etc.

A top competition yard where there are big horses are on individual turnout and there is an indoor school and the horses don't go out for very long so need more mucking out/hay/feed yes I can see can see being very costly but most full livery yards are not like that and have lower out goings. If the horses spend most of the day in field the cost of hay and bedding can be reduced and time taken to muck out is less too. If they are more leisure horses in light work they can have fibre based feeds which are not so expensive and don't need huge amounts of hay.

Grooming/riding/cleaning tack every day is time consuming but the basic horse care should not be that time consuming if well managed. In you are looking after several horses you will probably benefit from the economies of scale. Hay and bedding does not need to be hugely expensive if cleverly sourced and and bought in bulk.

I think there is also a bit of difference in what people call full and part livery. I am 7 day part livery and that is everything but grooming/exercise and tack cleaning. My pony is very clean and on the deep litter system so only needs the wet taken out once a month but poos taken out twice a day. He also only eats a small amount of un-mollassed chaff mixed with his supplements and as he is prone to weight gain cannot have ad-lib hay so has to have soaked hay in a greedy net. He is on group turnout and normally they TO/CI two at a time and field not far from yard so does not take long to catch in. I do not pay anywhere near £245 a week {and could not afford to do so}and that includes 365 day care including going in the field on xmas day as normal.

Yards are not charities and most must be breaking even otherwise they would not be able to be run long term. If yards can offer DIY for around £150 a month then surely it would not cost an extra £800 a month to feed and provide basic care for a horse on top of that unless the horses are eating huge amounts of food and getting through a bale of shavings a day and you are paying for more highly skilled staff than you actually need.
		
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'Yards are not charities and most must be breaking even',
 I think most yards if they actually did a spread sheet and worked out their net profit, and  would include the cost of buying or renting the land, and paying wages for either themselves or staff would not be making a profit.
   A lot of people rent or buy a house and yard and take a couple or more liveries to help with the costs of keeping their own animals. The thought being I am mucking out two so to do four is not a problem. I doubt if they pay themselves minimum wage and some will not be paying business rates or the right insurance.
  I looked in to all of this, I already have stables and acreage etc but most people want a surface of some sort, I do not need one.How many £20 a week gross profit would you need to have before you covered the £15-20k it would cost to put one in?
  I could put up a shower and toilet block for £15k and take touring caravans at £10 a night and shut when I want a holiday or Christmas.


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## charlie76 (19 November 2015)

honetpot said:



			'Yards are not charities and most must be breaking even',
 I think most yards if they actually did a spread sheet and worked out their net profit, and  would include the cost of buying or renting the land, and paying wages for either themselves or staff would not be making a profit.
   A lot of people rent or buy a house and yard and take a couple or more liveries to help with the costs of keeping their own animals. The thought being I am mucking out two so to do four is not a problem. I doubt if they pay themselves minimum wage and some will not be paying business rates or the right insurance.
  I looked in to all of this, I already have stables and acreage etc but most people want a surface of some sort, I do not need one.How many £20 a week gross profit would you need to have before you covered the £15-20k it would cost to put one in?
  I could put up a shower and toilet block for £15k and take touring caravans at £10 a night and shut when I want a holiday or Christmas.
		
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This. 
I am a yard owner. The business pays for the keep of my two horses. I do not take a wage. I am sure that many people look at the livery charges and we must be making a good profit. That couldn't be further from the truth. We do it because we like the horses and like the people.


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## Auslander (19 November 2015)

honetpot said:



			A lot of people rent or buy a house and yard and take a couple or more liveries to help with the costs of keeping their own animals. The thought being I am mucking out two so to do four is not a problem. I doubt if they pay themselves minimum wage and some will not be paying business rates or the right insurance..
		
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This is so very true! I did exactly that, and I in no way even break even now that the horses are having ad lib hay. There's a top on what I can charge for full grass livery, and I don't feel I can add any more on, so extra hay comes out of my own pocket. 
I have CCC insurance, but thankfully, rates and maintenance are included in my rent.


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## RunToEarth (19 November 2015)

We're at home and they stay in for ease, go on the walker in the morning for an hour or so - they are fine. 

However, I would question any YO or YM who thought it was acceptable to leave a horse in its stable, not mucked out for 24 hours, for a yard offering full livery to suggest that is frankly disgusting.


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## Crazy_cat_lady (19 November 2015)

I'm on part livery and yo is happy to feed and turn out as normal think they do even do full livery for some but extra cost
I'll probably leave mine in as I spent most of last Christmas day trying to catch the flipping thing! It's ok normally as we can wait around for him but not Xmas day as dinner to cook etc. He will of course have a haynets etc.


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