# Parents grey foal looks dun is this possible?



## Passtheshampoo (2 July 2009)

My 5wk old colt has grey sire (Connemara) and grey dam (ID X TB/SWB). He was born a mousy bay colour and I expected him to go grey but as his baby coat is shedding around his muzzle and eyes he looks dun to me. He also has a dorsal stripe at the mo. There are duns on his sire's side and his grand dam on his mothers side is bay. He hasn't had the typical grey specs that foals have when they turn grey. Just wondered if anyone was clued up on colour genetics and could advise. I'm certainly not bothered if he goes grey aas he's a super looking chap.


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## xena_wales (2 July 2009)

He has at least a 75% chance of going grey, but if he doesn't, then it would depend on what genes his parents are carrying as to what colour he is.  I think "dun" Connemaras are buckskins, not duns, even though a dorsal stripe may be present.

Edited for clarity.


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## Simsar (2 July 2009)

We bred our bay TB mare to a grey connie stallion last year and got the most stunning dun filly, the sires grand dam was dun but that was it, so it just depends on the luck of the draw!


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## Passtheshampoo (2 July 2009)

Thanks for replies. I've checked him again tonight and he has the horizontal dark stripes behind his knees.  It's exciting wondering what colour they'll turn out to be especially as I thought he'd definitely end up grey. He has the most unusual whorls down either side of his neck, one side looks like a large letter M and the other a large L (nothing to do with colouring just thought I'd mention them).  Have to admit my first pony 33yrs ago was a dun and whenever I see one it reminds me of her and the wonderful times we shared. Buckskin sounds very "American" but there are quite a few of those in his sires pedigree.


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## KarynK (4 July 2009)

Buckskin is the correct description of a horse has one copy of the cream gene, the same gene that gives palomino on a chestnut coat, for once our cousins across the pond are way ahead of us in realising that Duns and Buckskins are from two different genes.

I know cream is in Connemara's, used to have a TB cross that was a yeller fella!  But as grey hides all colours a dilute can easily pop out if you loose the grey!   They are finding this in iberians as well, that dilutes are hidden behind the grey and as birth colours were not recorded it was thought that the dilutes were no longer in the breeds.

One copy of cream on a bay, brown or black coat is described as a buckskin which can range from a dullish black, through a mousey brown to a yellow.

Two copies of the cream gene gives a "double dilute" effect and produces the so call Pseudo Albino, usually described as a cremello, although that should be used to describe a base of chestnut, with perlino being a bay/brown and a Smokey cream is a black base.  In reality they are hard to distinguish unless you know what you are looking for!

The duns are a result of a different gene and have the wild markings on the legs that you describe with your foal.  There is no double dilute effect with duns.  Hopefully the grey has not been inherited and baby will stay dun!


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## cruiseline (4 July 2009)

So many people think that a dun is the correct word for anything that is slightly yellow in colour with black points and that buckskin is an American term used for the same thing, when in fact they are two completely unrelated genes.

I have put up two photos in a hope that you can see the difference.

This is a dun horse, you can clearly see the dorsal strip and the primitive markings down the legs, they can also have a stripe across the withers down the shoulders and cobweb markings on the ears. The dun gene is a simple dominant gene, in other words if the horse is carrying the gene you will see it, it does not matter if the horse has one or two copies of the gene (one from dam and one from sire) the affect on the coat is exactly the same.







This is a buckskin horse, with no dorsal stripe, (he does have a slight counter shading down the spine, which is fuzzy and undefined), and no primitive leg markings. He is carrying a single dilute gene, which is dominant and does not hide, it is the same gene that produces a palomino coat colour on a chestnut horse. But if he was carrying two dilute genes (one from dam and one from sire) he would be a double dilute and would look completely different, he would be a cremello or perlino which is a horse that looks white with blue eyes. This is due to the fact that the dilute gene does exactly that, it dilutes the coat, so a double dilute strips the colour even more.







I hope I have described the two different genes so that they are easier to understand.

A buckskin is a buckskin and a dun is a dun, they are not related.


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## Passtheshampoo (4 July 2009)

Thanks KarynK and cruiseline. Really informative answers.  I'll refer back to these as he loses more coat. He certainly has the leg bars and looks to have shading across his withers and down his shoulders. Will check the ears once he loses the babyfuzz. Wish I could fathom out how to post a photo have read JessPickles wonderful idiots guides but still can't fathom it out. Think I'm the wrong side of 40. Will get the kids to have a go for me.


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## Honeypots (4 July 2009)

To post a picture..join here for free

http://photobucket.com/

Its quite straightforward to get your piccies on there(even I could do it) and then when you have, right click on the fourth box down to highlight the box, underneath your piccie. Copy and paste onto the reply box on here. Done!


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## appylass (4 July 2009)

Just out of interest, if OP's horse is dun and not buckskin, where would the dun gene be likely to have come from? I am really interested in colours (but not very knowledgeable!) and I thought there was no dun in connemaras , TB or ID. Would have come from the warmblood?


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## varkie (5 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
One copy of cream on a bay, brown or black coat is described as a buckskin which can range from a dullish black, through a mousey brown to a yellow.

[/ QUOTE ]
True, except for the black thing.  One copy of cream on black gives you a smokey black, not a buckskin.

The other thing people need to remember to dun is that duns come in all shades.  I breed duns, and the word 'dun' should always be prefaced by it's genetic colour - the true duns shown above should be called 'bay duns' not just 'duns'.  Dun happens to all colours - chestnut, bay, black, palomino etc.

For example, here are a couple of ponies I have bred/own, who carry the dun colour. 

This pair are both black duns (sometimes called blue duns, grulla/grullo, silver dun):






This is another black dun:






This is my stallion, who is chestnut dun:






This is a chap I used to own - bay dun, but also with pangere I believe.  Bay dun being the colour most people confuse with buckskin:


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## cruiseline (5 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
  Dun happens to all colours - chestnut, bay, black, palomino etc.


[/ QUOTE ]

Duns do not come in palomino, as this colour is created by the dilute gene not the dun gene. So you will not get a palomino from dun breeding alone. The only way is if one of the parents is a dunalino, which would indicate it carried both the dun and the dilute gene together.


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## xena_wales (5 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
  Dun happens to all colours - chestnut, bay, black, palomino etc.


[/ QUOTE ]

Duns do not come in palomino, as this colour is created by the dilute gene not the dun gene. So you will not get a palomino from dun breeding alone. The only way is if one of the parents is a dunalino, which would indicate it carried both the dun and the dilute gene together.







[/ QUOTE ]

You could easily get a palomino dun!  What about a cremello put to a chestnut who is homozygous for dun?


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## cruiseline (5 July 2009)

Then you will get a dun with a dilute gene, known as a dunalino, but you have to introduce the dilute gene, it is not part of the genetic makeup of the dun gene.

You can get a whole range of colours if you include tobiano, appoloosa, dilute, grey, silver dapple, overo etc. on to a homozygous dun horse, 

but dun on dun will only produce either a non dun or a dun, not a palomino.


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## xena_wales (5 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]

but dun on dun will only produce either a non dun or a dun, not a palomino. 

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes.


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## Passtheshampoo (5 July 2009)

Gosh this colour genetics is interesting but quite complex. I'll get some decent pics of his markings and try to get one on here for you guys to have a look at. You all seem to know far more about the subject than I'll ever know.  Thanks


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## amy_b (1 February 2011)

This site is really fun to play around with different colours and combinations

http://www.jenniferhoffman.net/horse/equinegenetics.html

Grey is whats known as a modifier, hence no foal ever being born grey, every grey is infact for example a chestnut, bay, black....hidden beneath a grey coat. the genetics makes the hair turn grey, for this reason the majority of stud that specialise in colour (appaloosa, palomino, buckskin) won't have grey broodmares because if the pretty palomino turns grey it isnt a pretty palomino! 

in short either your mare/stallion is a dun/buckskin dressed up in grey colours. 

also, the grey gene is dominant so if they have inherited it they are grey, you never get a 'carrier' of grey, however you can get homozygous greys meaning both parents passed on the grey gene - so the foal would only have grey offspring because it would always pass on copy on. 

coat colour genetics is slightly addictive!!!


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## abina (1 February 2011)

Varkie - thanks for the info - I never knew that the base colour should preceed the dun. 
How would I describe one of my Duns - he is what I would have called a yellow dun - he is a bright gold colour without any black points or dorsal striping.? Stunning when the sun shines on him !


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## supaspot (1 February 2011)

if your horse has no dorsal stripe or dark points why do you think hes bay ?


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## whirlwindhorses (1 February 2011)

Leg stripes can also be counter shading. These stripey legs are on a bay purebred arab foal. His dam is bay and she also has leg stripes, shoulder stripe and dorsal stripe.


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## Spring Feather (1 February 2011)

Here's a little story of a filly born almost 6 years ago.  She was believed to be grey at birth so was registered as such.  For the next few years I often questioned whether she had been coloured correctly as she remained buckskin for all of those years.  She will be 6 years old in April of this year and finally her grey is shining through as I've always thought (hoped with many fingers crossed) it would.  She has some dapples this year and I think once this summer comes and she sheds her fluffy winter coat that for the first time ever she will be a true grey mare.

I see this thread is almost 2 years old and it would be interesting if the OP came back and told us what has happened re; foals colouring.


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## KarynK (2 February 2011)

Yes there have been a few reports of delayed onset greying and also recolouration on greys.

This could well be another genetic mutation or a couple of mutations that provide an antidote to grey.  So we are seeing  a halting or or delaying of the strpping of colour from the hair and in some cases allowing repigmentation of whole areas.


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## creamsoda (2 February 2011)

We have a cremello connemara. Both her parents are grey but she has a lot of duns in her family.I should think her breeders were very suprised when a blue eyed cream foal popped out!!


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## crellow4 (2 February 2011)

Just to re-iterate, you do not get Dun Connemara's - mixing up Dun and Buckskin is becoming my pet hate!!!!


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## Kao (2 February 2011)

crellow4 said:



			Just to re-iterate, you do not get Dun Connemara's - mixing up Dun and Buckskin is becoming my pet hate!!!!
		
Click to expand...

Ditto.
I know someone who was trying to sell a Buckskin connie and was adamant it was Dun. She said Buckskin didn't "sound right".
I wish they somehow taught this stuff.


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## siennamum (2 February 2011)

My boy was brown at birth, then dun for 3 years and is now a dapple grey. He still has a dorsal stripe, it's quite a shame really as I daresay he'll end up white.


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