# Brave people post "good shoeing" pix please



## cptrayes (4 February 2012)

We've had a lot of people discussing feet lately and it's pretty clear that many, many owners have no idea whether their farriers are doing a good job for them or not. Is anyone brave enough to post pictures of their "well shod" horse's feet to let us critique so that novices get a better idea of what to look for?

If you are going to take pictures especially for this, then the sole shot needs to be directly from on top, the side and front shot needs to have the camera, and you, on the floor down by the foot.

Potential critics please go easy on assumptions, we do not know the horses histories, and photos can be very deceptive. If in doubt sprinkle your replies liberally with "I think", "It looks like", "It's possible that" etc. Barefooters (like me) this is not intended to be a farrier bashing exercise or a promotion of barefoot. Plenty of horse/owner combinations need to use shoes and this is to educate us all. 

Any takers?


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## blood_magik (4 February 2012)

I'll take pics when I'm up tomorrow because our farrier said he's put different shoes on the muppet.


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## *hic* (4 February 2012)

You must be joking if you think I'm going out in this to disturb my horses to take pics of their feet for a bunch of forumites to comment on! That's for both the shod and unshod ones.


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## cptrayes (4 February 2012)

Dee O'Dorant said:



			You must be joking if you think I'm going out in this to disturb my horses to take pics of their feet for a bunch of forumites to comment on! That's for both the shod and unshod ones.
		
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So why did you bother posting? Would it not have been easier just to exit the thread and say nothing  ??


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## trina1982 (4 February 2012)

You're braver than me starting this. I've wanted to for a while but wouldn't want to cause a stir! 

Keep it friendly people!! 

Trina x


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## AFlapjack (4 February 2012)

If I remember to take my camera up to the yard tomorrow I will upload photos of my boy's feet. Not necessarily saying they are well shod but would be interested in people's opinions. 

They are due to be shod this week so if I am super organised I will take before and after shots


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## Holly Hocks (4 February 2012)

Well I don't give a toss whether these are good or bad as my mare is now barefoot.  These are the photos of the last set of shoes that were fitted before she went barefoot.  They were fitted by a farrier at a vets hospital before she came home and these photos were about four weeks after they were done. Although she is still sore due to the ground conditions, her feet look much better now she has had the shoes taken off.  Although I have to say that when she came back from hospital in these shoes she was sounder than she had been for months...


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## cptrayes (4 February 2012)

trina1982 said:



			You're braver than me starting this. I've wanted to for a while but wouldn't want to cause a stir! 

Keep it friendly people!! 

Trina x
		
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Yes, please keep it friendly. If anyone brave enough to post gets attacked, I will ask the Fat Controller to pull it and we will all be the losers. 

Play nice


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## nikicb (4 February 2012)

I would like to post some pictures of one of our ponies' feet.  About a year ago (with all the snow) we took all his shoes off and he has been unshod ever since without any problems.  At the time I posted some pictures and had some helpful feedback.  I am very happy with how his feet look now, as is my farrier (who is a farrier, but does look at the all round horse and its care etc) and he doesn't have any issues.  Sometimes on very rough ground he is a little footy but tbh he does very little road work and not much on hard or rough ground so I really think this is down to his feet not having hardened up.  I am reluctant though to post up to date pictures for fear of being ripped to pieces.  Not by you cptrayes because I think you tend to give fair and balanced opinions, but by some of the fanaticists on here.  I don't really want to be the lamb taken to the slaughter.


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## A Guilding (4 February 2012)

My son is a farrier, I have just nicked these off  his face book  go gentle on him he is a nice lad and not the worst farrier in the world.


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## cptrayes (4 February 2012)

Holly Hocks said:



			Well I don't give a toss whether these are good or bad as my mare is now barefoot.  These are the photos of the last set of shoes that were fitted before she went barefoot.  They were fitted by a farrier at a vets hospital before she came home and these photos were about four weeks after they were done. Although she is still sore due to the ground conditions, her feet look much better now she has had the shoes taken off.  Although I have to say that when she came back from hospital in these shoes she was sounder than she had been for months...

















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OK I'll start.

Your horse has been shod with wide web aluminium shoes which are light and will, when they first go on, bear weight slightly inside the hoof wall as well as on it, spreading the load. Unfortunately, as you can see, after 4 weeks the hoof wall has grown and the shoe no longer does what it was designed to do. That's not a problem with the shoeing, it's a problem with the fact that horses feet grow. 

But, it looks like the shoes do not extend to the full length of where the heel plane would be in contact with the floor. It looks like they are about 1/8th to 1/4inch short. It's worse on the right of the photo than the left. Lots of farriers do this so that the horse will not tread the shoe off, but it's not ideal as it shortens the support for the heel. 

Your horse looks as if it has been left with  very high heel but they may ahve grown this way in 4 weeks. The frog is some way above the bottom of the horn, and then there is the shoe as well, so it will be nigh on impossible to get much stimulation for the frog if the photo is telling the truth. 

The heel appears to be underrun - it seems to be some way out in front of the bulbs of the heels, and although we can't see the cannon bones, it seems possible that the foot may not be standing under the cannon bone and supporting the leg properly.  In the front feet I  look for the last bit  of the heel in contact with the floor  being underneath  a line drawn down the middle of the cannon bone. 

That might be why the front of the hoof is bending out to give the foot a long toe, which the farrier has rasped back, correctly, to allow the horse to break over earlier in each stride. Many farriers would have shod the horse with longer shoes that poke out over the end of the heel to correct the underrun, but the problem with that is that they come off very easily.

She has of course got two compeletely unmatched front feet in that photo, but we only have close-ups of the one I have commented on. 

In summary I would say that for me these are "not great" feet (hence the fact that the horse is now in a barefoot rehab) in "not bad" shoeing. 

Anyone else got some comments?


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## TigerTail (4 February 2012)

Not helpful at all but I can't believe how weird shod feet look to me now! Not because of the individual farrierying


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## TigerTail (4 February 2012)

Not helpful at all but I can't believe how weird shod feet look to me now! Not because of the individual farrierying just cos there's a shoe on, though the nails do make me wince!


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## A Guilding (4 February 2012)

cptrayes said:



			OK I'll start.

Your horse has been shod with wide web aluminium shoes which are light and will, when they first go on, bear weight slightly inside the hoof wall as well as on it, spreading the load. Unfortunately, as you can see, after 4 weeks the hoof wall has grown and the shoe no longer does what it was designed to do. That's not a problem with the shoeing, it's a problem with the fact that horses feet grow. 

But, it looks like the shoes do not extend to the full length of where the heel plane would be in contact with the floor. It looks like they are about 1/8th to 1/4inch short. It's worse on the right of the photo than the left. Lots of farriers do this so that the horse will not tread the shoe off, but it's not ideal as it shortens the support for the heel. 

Your horse looks as if it has been left with  very high heel but they may ahve grown this way in 4 weeks. The frog is some way above the bottom of the horn, and then there is the shoe as well, so it will be nigh on impossible to get much stimulation for the frog if the photo is telling the truth. 

The heel appears to be underrun - it seems to be some way out in front of the bulbs of the heels, and although we can't see the cannon bones, it seems possible that the foot may not be standing under the cannon bone and supporting the leg properly.  In the front feet I  look for the last bit  of the heel in contact with the floor  being underneath  a line drawn down the middle of the cannon bone. 

That might be why the front of the hoof is bending out to give the foot a long toe, which the farrier has rasped back, correctly, to allow the horse to break over earlier in each stride. Many farriers would have shod the horse with longer shoes that poke out over the end of the heel to correct the underrun, but the problem with that is that they come off very easily.

In summary I would say that for me these are "not great" feet (hence the fact that the horse is now in a barefoot rehab) in "not bad" shoeing. 

Anyone else got some comments?
		
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They ain't aluminium. they are to short.


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## cptrayes (4 February 2012)

A Guilding said:



			They ain't aluminium. they are to short.
		
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What do you mean by too short to be aluminium ? Surely they are far too silver shiny for steel, though you'd know  a shoe better than I would.


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## AFlapjack (4 February 2012)

cptrayes said:



			What do you mean by too short to be aluminium ? Surely they are far too silver shiny for steel, though you'd know  a shoe better than I would.
		
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I read that as....

They are not aluminium. They _are_ however too short. 


I could be wrong though


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## A Guilding (4 February 2012)

They are steel. The shoes fall inside the heel that is why I say they are to short. I dont think the heels are underun.
I think you missed the photos on page one I posted.


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## Holly Hocks (4 February 2012)

Apparently they are natural balance shoes fitted by an apparently excellent farrier.....
She had her shoes off on 11th November and these were her feet about two weeks ago.  Be aware that she hasn't had any conditioning work yet - her day consists of stable to field and back again due to ligament injuries and a multitude of other problems......do they look better now CPT? These are just a few of the many photos.....


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## A Guilding (4 February 2012)

They arnt Natural Balance either. Your horse has a bit of High Low heel syndrome.


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## cptrayes (4 February 2012)

Start a different thread HH and I'll tell you, thissun's for shoes    Some people have to use them so this is to let them know what's good and bad.


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## Holly Hocks (4 February 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Start a different thread HH and I'll tell you, thissun's for shoes    Some people have to use them so this is to let them know what's good and bad.
		
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No it's ok, Oberon has already seen them as they are currently.....I'm happy with them


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## cptrayes (4 February 2012)

A Guilding said:



			My son is a farrier, I have just nicked these off  his face book  go gentle on him he is a nice lad and not the worst farrier in the world.

















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Well there you go. Textbook. If I had to have studs on my horses then that's the kind of shoeing that I would want to see them have.   Length and breadth to support the heel, nicely set back toe to encourage breakover, and a real tidy job. I'm sure A Guilding wouldn't have posted them if he thought we were going to pull his boy to pieces 

A lot of people would be very concerned that the foot does not meet the shoe at the side. It's irrelevant. Many barefoot horses have feet which do not touch the ground on the sides, it's pefectly normal. So it's neither here nor there whether they touch the shoe there either.

A couple of questions AG, I think I can see rasp marks a very long way up the hoof wall. Am I mistaken or was there a reason for that (or did he just get a bit enthusiastic rasping the clenches flat?). And in the third shot it looks like he has done a lot of sole and frog sculpting. Is that just a trick of the light or was it necessary for some reason?  I am assuming in the last shot that it is a trick of the light that makes it look as if the left hand branch of the heel does not quite meet the end of the heel plane.


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## trina1982 (4 February 2012)

A Guilding said:



			They arnt Natural Balance either. Your horse has a bit of High Low heel syndrome.
		
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Can i ask what this means?

And i think your sons shoeing is some of the better i've seen (although i am no expert and can only really only spot obvious problems with my limited knowledge).

Can i ask why there is so much paring of the frog and sole when shoeing? Is it not possible just to prepare the area to be shod, and not the whole sole? They look clean and tidy, but i don't know if that is really neccessary (or is it?). Certainly it is detrimental to a barefoot hoof (on my understanding).

Trina x


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## Holly Hocks (4 February 2012)

trina1982 said:



			Can i ask what this means?

And i think your sons shoeing is some of the better i've seen (although i am no expert and can only really only spot obvious problems with my limited knowledge).

Can i ask why there is so much paring of the frog and sole when shoeing? Is it not possible just to prepare the area to be shod, and not the whole sole? They look clean and tidy, but i don't know if that is really neccessary (or is it?). Certainly it is detrimental to a barefoot hoof (on my understanding).

Trina x
		
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I noticed that too - but maybe he's just wanting to show nice clean feet for his facebook page?


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## A Guilding (4 February 2012)

trina1982 said:



			Can i ask what this means?

And i think your sons shoeing is some of the better i've seen (although i am no expert and can only really only spot obvious problems with my limited knowledge).

Can i ask why there is so much paring of the frog and sole when shoeing? Is it not possible just to prepare the area to be shod, and not the whole sole? They look clean and tidy, but i don't know if that is really neccessary (or is it?). Certainly it is detrimental to a barefoot hoof (on my understanding).

Trina x
		
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Natural balance shoes are a different shape than these, If you were wondering what I meant by high low heel then that would take pages.
I will clip him round the ear when I next see him for making the foot look pretty.


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## unbalanced (4 February 2012)

This is my horse's left fore shod by a super qualifed remedial farrier at his own forge with all the facilities. Photos taken on the day she was shod.

My horse is a Welsh D who has had lami in the past although not at the moment or when these pictures were taken. She was in bar shoes last summer for 'footiness' although she had normal x-rays at the time. The farrier who put these shoes on changed her out of bar shoes. 

These were her last set of shoes and I think I know all the problems with them as my trimmer has had a good look but pony is now BF so feel free to rip them apart and hit me with a few more if you want.


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## A Guilding (4 February 2012)

Bit of corrective farriery, remedial, surgical what ever you want to call it by my son,


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## cptrayes (4 February 2012)

What problem were the eggbars to help with AG?


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## SpottedCat (4 February 2012)

AGuikding - the other thing I'd like to see is a bit of 'pre-wear' of the shoes. My farrier looks at the wear pattern the horse naturally produces and mimics it on new shoes to reduce joint strain - otherwise with brand new shoes there will be a period of time when the horse is forced to move in a manner that isn't perfect for that horse (if that makes sense?). I suspect a lot of people would be horrified to see 'worn' shoes on though, so can understand why it's so rare to see.


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## A Guilding (4 February 2012)

cptrayes said:



			What problem were the eggbars to help with AG?
		
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It had fractured wing of P3, not serious.


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## trina1982 (4 February 2012)

A Guilding said:



			If you were wondering what I meant by high low heel then that would take pages.



			Seriously? Can you not explain it in laymens terms at all?

A Guilding - you seem to have a huge wealth of knowledge but you are incredibly cagey and cryptic with sharing it? There are lots of people actively viewing, maybe not posting, but definately viewing that could benefit from hooves being de-mystified a bit.

And i wasn't having a go at your lads 'pretty' hooves, again it was a genuine question as to why the sole is pared quite so much on a shod foot (not just that specific example).

I'm always willing to learn...

Trina x
		
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## trina1982 (4 February 2012)

SpottedCat said:



			AGuikding - the other thing I'd like to see is a bit of 'pre-wear' of the shoes. My farrier looks at the wear pattern the horse naturally produces and mimics it on new shoes to reduce joint strain - otherwise with brand new shoes there will be a period of time when the horse is forced to move in a manner that isn't perfect for that horse (if that makes sense?). I suspect a lot of people would be horrified to see 'worn' shoes on though, so can understand why it's so rare to see.
		
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A bit like allowing a barefoot hoof to be the shape it wants to be?

*runs for cover* lol

Trina x


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## unbalanced (4 February 2012)

No one want to do my horse?


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## Holly Hocks (4 February 2012)

unbalanced said:



			No one want to do my horse?
		
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No they were too busy deciding whether my horses' shoes were steel or aluminium, natural balance or not natural balance and whether she has underrun heels or not.....experts eh?  They can't agree on anything!


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## SpottedCat (4 February 2012)

trina1982 said:



			A bit like allowing a barefoot hoof to be the shape it wants to be?

*runs for cover* lol

Trina x
		
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Exactly like that 

I would not use a farrier who tried to alter the gait of a sound horse using shoes - if they move that way and are sound then leave well alone. 

I have had horses shod and unshod, I've spent many hours watching a KCP trimmer and discussing it with him. I have nothing against unshod/shod. Current horse's work/lifestyle requires shoes - if it didn't he wouldn't have them. Incidentally he's been seen by one of the top orthopaedic vets in the country in the last 6 months, who said my farrier could not be doing a better job, that normally he refers people to a remedial farrier but there was no need, and that it was pretty rare to see such clean x-rays with such good foot conformation in a 12 yo that has evented every year since it was 5, so I'm confident I am doing the best I can for this horse.


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## A Guilding (4 February 2012)

trina1982 said:





A Guilding said:



			If you were wondering what I meant by high low heel then that would take pages.



			Seriously? Can you not explain it in laymens terms at all?

A Guilding - you seem to have a huge wealth of knowledge but you are incredibly cagey and cryptic with sharing it? There are lots of people actively viewing, maybe not posting, but definately viewing that could benefit from hooves being de-mystified a bit.

And i wasn't having a go at your lads 'pretty' hooves, again it was a genuine question as to why the sole is pared quite so much on a shod foot (not just that specific example).

I'm always willing to learn...

Trina x
		
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I was joking about clipping his ear, he is huge.
Im not cagey or crptic, Its just a huge subject and im crap at typing.
It has one leg longer than the other, P3  has a higher angle in the front right (palmer angle) than the front left, the right knee is a bit higher, the scapular angle is a bit more acute, in a nutshell  It will have a diagnonal orientation, it will not like the right rein etc.
		
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## trina1982 (4 February 2012)

SpottedCat said:



			Exactly like that 

I would not use a farrier who tried to alter the gait of a sound horse using shoes - if they move that way and are sound then leave well alone. 

I have had horses shod and unshod, I've spent many hours watching a KCP trimmer and discussing it with him. I have nothing against unshod/shod. Current horse's work/lifestyle requires shoes - if it didn't he wouldn't have them. Incidentally he's been seen by one of the top orthopaedic vets in the country in the last 6 months, who said my farrier could not be doing a better job, that normally he refers people to a remedial farrier but there was no need, and that it was pretty rare to see such clean x-rays with such good foot conformation in a 12 yo that has evented every year since it was 5, so I'm confident I am doing the best I can for this horse.
		
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Sounds like you've got a keeper 
Any chance of some pics - could be valuable for this thread?

Trina x


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## SpottedCat (4 February 2012)

trina1982 said:



			Sounds like you've got a keeper 
Any chance of some pics - could be valuable for this thread?

Trina x
		
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No, for two reasons. Firstly I am incredibly happy with the job my farrier does, and it is totally unfair for me to post pictures of his work on the Internet and invite comment without his knowledge (I'd like him to keep shoeing for me - horse came in crippled thurs night, wouldn't weight bear, he was out 8.30 am fri morning to find the abscess, sorted it and is booked in for mon to replace shoe - refused payment). Secondly, because horse has an abscess and is a bit sore I don't think it's terribly fair on him to ask him to stand on 3 legs whilst I fanny about taking photos! 

I hope that doesn't sound like I'm not entering into the spirit of this thread - I think hoof stuff is fascinating, but my farrier hasn't asked to be critiqued in the public domain.


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## trina1982 (4 February 2012)

A Guilding said:





trina1982 said:





A Guilding said:



			If you were wondering what I meant by high low heel then that would take pages.

I was joking about clipping his ear, he is huge.
Im not cagey or crptic, Its just a huge subject and im crap at typing.
It has one leg longer than the other, P3  has a higher angle in the front right (palmer angle) than the front left, the right knee is a bit higher, the scapular angle is a bit more acute, in a nutshell  It will have a diagnonal orientation, it will not like the right rein etc.
		
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Right, i see! Thank you, makes perfect sense and i believe the horse i used to ride has similar. Incidentally i showed her photo to my 'back man' (who also did horses) and straight away he mention her shoulder causing a problem, think he mentioned an inflection (?) of the pastern and her probable dislike of the right rein. He was spot on and she has one upright hoof (right i think) that is also flat with a high heel. Certainly interesting.
Is that fixable with shoeing or should it just be left as is, if the horse has one leg longer than the other (or is that an illusion caused by muscle problems in the shoulder?). The horse i know has been like this for years and years (and  also had lot of years of imtermittant lameness).

Sorry, more questions 

Trina x
		
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## trina1982 (4 February 2012)

SpottedCat said:



			No, for two reasons. Firstly I am incredibly happy with the job my farrier does, and it is totally unfair for me to post pictures of his work on the Internet and invite comment without his knowledge (I'd like him to keep shoeing for me - horse came in crippled thurs night, wouldn't weight bear, he was out 8.30 am fri morning to find the abscess, sorted it and is booked in for mon to replace shoe - refused payment). Secondly, because horse has an abscess and is a bit sore I don't think it's terribly fair on him to ask him to stand on 3 legs whilst I fanny about taking photos! 

I hope that doesn't sound like I'm not entering into the spirit of this thread - I think hoof stuff is fascinating, but my farrier hasn't asked to be critiqued in the public domain.
		
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Fair enough, totally understand.

Trina x


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## SpottedCat (4 February 2012)

trina1982 said:



			Fair enough, totally understand.

Trina x
		
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 people do seem to be taking things I say the wrong way this week so I am glad I am making sense to someone!

FWIW my farrier doesn't trim the frog, never rasps or pares the sole and does not rasp high up the walls. There's no flare on my horses hooves, he respects the wonky shape of the hinds and doesn't try and alter them and this is the first abscess this horse has ever had. He's also never had a day off lame before this abscess. He did get a bit jarred up on the hard ground last season (hence the vet visit), but I think I'm to blame for that, not the farrier


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## cobmum (5 February 2012)

Before and after pics would be great too, with explanation of what has been done and why. I will be the first to admit i know very little in this area but willing to learn - we all have to start somewhere and are not born knowing so any positive info is appreciated.


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## Ladydragon (5 February 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Anyone else got some comments?
		
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Only that I really need to get some research done on feet before shoving piccies on...  Most of the terms used in the critique flew straight over my head...


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## cptrayes (5 February 2012)

Ladydragon said:



			Only that I really need to get some research done on feet before shoving piccies on...  Most of the terms used in the critique flew straight over my head... 

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Sorry! Can you ask for a translation if it's a bit too much?  I personally hate the terms medial and lateral. For those of use who are not hoof pros, lateral is "on the side of the foot facing outwards" and medial is "on the side of the foot facing into the other leg"

AG the bar shoes for a Pedal Bone fracture (properly P3 but commonly called Pedal bone, though there are several it and means the big hoof shaped one) make complete sense to me and I'm on record on this forum speaking against a barefoot trimmer who wanted someone with a P3 fracture to remove the shoes.

Some of the posts are sounding a bit snipey folks. If you don't want to post pictures, just don't, but please don't feel you need to tell us why you aren't going to it does not help the thread at all.(with the exception of the quoted post above) 

Spotted Cat you sound like you have a gem there!


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## skint1 (5 February 2012)

Ok, here are some pics we took of my daughter's mare's feet before deciding to change farriers. It was a sad decision and not one I took lightly, I want to trust my farrier because I feel that I am paying them for their expertise, I don't want to have to cajole them, beg them, check up on them, question their judgement and I felt that I couldn't really do that with the old farrier. 













 I kept hearing that her heels were under-run, but of course I didn't really know enough to judge, and I kept asking him to address it, so he did this, and then I felt this wasn't the direction I wanted to go in and so I changed to someone who had a bit more enthusiasm for the job. So, to me, this is an example of less than good farriery anyway.

eta- we also had to look at her diet and change her down to 5 weekly cycles, but the thing is, we didn't know that, it would have been nice for our old farrier to have advised us, we would also have appreciated it if he'd said her heels were a problem and maybe put some options out there for us to think about but he didn't.

This mare is now barefoot and her feet have a fantastic shape to them, my new farrier put her in NB shoes with equipak for about 6 months (I think) and this really, really helped her. She then went back to "normal" shoes and then when she was turned away I first took her backs off and then a couple months later her fronts. I really don't think she could work without shoes but she's fine in the field though it's taken a long time with the fronts


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## indie999 (5 February 2012)

Sorry no pics as no shoes on now but I am too wanting to learn. When one of my ponies had a touch of laminitis we wanted to take the shoes off but the farrier just put on a slightly bigger shoe which really helped. He explained a bigger shoe would spread the weight ie to alleviate any discomfort. The only thing he said could happen is pony could catch the shoe and pull it off. We had one shoeing with larger shoes and then went back to normal size. The only thing my farrier doesnt do a lot of is clean up the sole of the foot and he sometimes very lightly trims the frog but most of the time they dont look scrupulously clean or flat etc like the first pictures on the post?

One thing I have found with old boy since shoes came off his feet still need trimming as regularly as when he had shoes on. Also in the summer he does take chunks out from the flint in the ground round here but in this wet mushy weather softer ground his hooves barefoot have remained much more perfectly shaped. They look so nice and perfect in the snow.

Skint1 initially I thought they are a big shoe on that foot but the heels look low on your horse so no expert at all but looks like angle is wrong?On your horses foot..not much hoof, so probably trying to help protect heel?? But hey I am no expert just my observation.  However I dont really question my farrier as I trust his expertise completely. He does advise diet or ie when I didnt realise my horse had thrush he recommended to flush with some hydrogen peroxide etc or cornucrescine etc . But I always ask if his feet are ok and he always will tell me if the horse is too fat etc or right size(good doer).


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## Ladydragon (5 February 2012)

cptrayes said:



			But, it looks like the shoes do not extend to the full length of where the heel plane would be in contact with the floor. It looks like they are about 1/8th to 1/4inch short. It's worse on the right of the photo than the left. Lots of farriers do this so that the horse will not tread the shoe off, but it's not ideal as it shortens the support for the heel. 

The frog is some way above the bottom of the horn

The heel appears to be underrun - it seems to be some way out in front of the bulbs of the heels
		
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cptrayes said:



			Sorry! Can you ask for a translation if it's a bit too much?  I personally hate the terms medial and lateral.
		
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Medial and lateral I'm fine on...for ligaments... 

Probably most of the above though and a few educated guesses on some other bits...  I just do not have any 'anatomy of the hoof' knowledge...  Uni work will finish in a few months though so I'll try and get my head around far more of it then...  It is something I need to do and then I won't feel a bit of a numpty for not having at least a basic understanding of something that I do know I should have...

Anything that involves the vet and/or treatment 'above the fetlock' I'll hold my own discussing it...    But hooves, agghhhh, I know nothing... 

PS...new farrier did take the toes on the rear back a bit last week - he strikes the underneath of the front shoes a bit over reaching once he's warmed up and loose...  And put a small roll on the front shoes as he noticed the horse can trip very slightly...  They made sense although I have no judgement call on them...


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## floradora09 (5 February 2012)

Ok, I'm happy with my farrier and his work, horse has been shod probably most of his life, and is now 16. My farrier's been shoeing him for nearly 2 yrs. He's shod every 4 weeks.

Last summer:
















Followed by a 8 week break from shoes, he was coming back into work and not coping brilliantly, so we put fronts on, pics after his first shoeing:


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## amandap (5 February 2012)

I know nothing about shoeing so thanks to all who have posted photos as it's all new and interesting to me.

floradora09 It's interesting how the heel angle has changed since the period out of shoes. Cptrayes, I don't wish to derail the thread this just struck me.


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## floradora09 (5 February 2012)

amandap- Yes, sorry it's quite hard to compare as the photos are taken from a slightly different angle, but I do agree with you. We're going to take him out of shoes for a 2-3 months every winter now, as it did seem to help his feet a lot, and gives my farrier some hoof to nail to come spring!!


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## AFlapjack (5 February 2012)

Ok here are photos of my boy. He is a week overdue (being shod wednesday this week) and he threw a shoe off his LF out hunting Xmas eve so it has a 'newer' shoe on.

Photos are in order: RF, RH, LH, LF



RF











RH











LH











LF


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## Circe (5 February 2012)

Ok, I'm going to be brave here now... people can be as brutal as they like, I feel bad everyday for letting this happen to my boy.
I 100% agree with the reasons for starting this thread. I've been around/ worked with horses for 30 + yrs, but to be honest, never paid much attention to their feet. Never had a problem. thats what I paid the farrier for...
4yr old tb, worked in a riding school for 12 months, sold to me as lame with seedy toe. Fed 1/2 bucket waste feed from race track and 1 bucket of lucerne chaff while in the riding school. 
this is him after the 2nd farrier visit, he has solepack packed between the hoof and the shoe. ( to kill the seedytoe I was told. )   













this is him after 4th farrier visit













A couple of months later my boy completely broke down, lost a large amount of hoof wall and had a dropped pedal bone. Cue change of farrier. I don't have any photos that show the separation of the hoof wall, I was too traumatised by the experience.
If anyone is interested I'll dig out the shoe that the new farrier removed from my boy on his first visit...very odd shape 
this is after new farriers first visit







progression of the hoof







and 12 months later







Apologies for the photo overload, I just wanted to say that I had everyone tell me how good the first farrier was, how I was so lucky that he was doing jazz for me. I paid a hell of alot of money, asked questions and got fobbed off. I still don't understand if the farrier lost interest, or was overwhelmed, or why he didn't just stop what he was doing ? 
I'll never try jazz barefoot on the fronts ( he doesn't wear shoes on the hinds ), but I've learnt so much from this forum and the barefoot threads.  
I wish I'd known then what I know now.
Kx
PS, extremely happy with farrier now and how he shoes


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## cptrayes (5 February 2012)

floradora09 said:



			Ok, I'm happy with my farrier and his work, horse has been shod probably most of his life, and is now 16. My farrier's been shoeing him for nearly 2 yrs. He's shod every 4 weeks.

Last summer:
















Followed by a 8 week break from shoes, he was coming back into work and not coping brilliantly, so we put fronts on, pics after his first shoeing:










Click to expand...

I personally wouldn't be happy with these shoes. They are set on so far forward that the breakover point (where the last of the horse's foot leaves the floor as it walks) has been artificially moved forwards by quite a long way.  The last one in particular I would be very concerned about, the shoe is clearly out in front of his toe (though admittedly the toe appears to be a bit broken off)

It used to be very frowned upon 20 years ago to "dump" (rasp off) the toe. I think it is now widely recognised that bringing the breakover back by rasping off the toe and fitting the shoe back from the front edge is a good thing which will help to guard against soft tissue injury in the back half of the foot.

The heels are a different  kettle of fish and a lot of owners should compare the heels on their own horse's shoes with them. These, as far as I am concerned, are correct. Unfortunately, a lot of horses are shod a lot shorter in the heel than this, either because the owner bugs the farrier that their horse pulls off shoes too easily, or because the farrier does not want the risk of the shoes being pulled off.


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## Ladydragon (5 February 2012)

Circe said:



			Kx
PS, extremely happy with farrier now and how he shoes
		
Click to expand...

That's good news...  Geez, poor thing looking at the one photo...   You're right, having some working knowledge of what the farrier does and why can't be a bad thing at all...

The photo before the broken one kinda reminds me of how I used to see shoeing many moons ago before having a 25yr 'horse break'...  Very upright or almost squarely parked onto the shoe...


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## cptrayes (5 February 2012)

skint1 said:



			Ok, here are some pics we took of my daughter's mare's feet before deciding to change farriers. It was a sad decision and not one I took lightly, I want to trust my farrier because I feel that I am paying them for their expertise, I don't want to have to cajole them, beg them, check up on them, question their judgement and I felt that I couldn't really do that with the old farrier. 













 I kept hearing that her heels were under-run, but of course I didn't really know enough to judge, and I kept asking him to address it, so he did this, and then I felt this wasn't the direction I wanted to go in and so I changed to someone who had a bit more enthusiasm for the job. So, to me, this is an example of less than good farriery anyway.

eta- we also had to look at her diet and change her down to 5 weekly cycles, but the thing is, we didn't know that, it would have been nice for our old farrier to have advised us, we would also have appreciated it if he'd said her heels were a problem and maybe put some options out there for us to think about but he didn't.

This mare is now barefoot and her feet have a fantastic shape to them, my new farrier put her in NB shoes with equipak for about 6 months (I think) and this really, really helped her. She then went back to "normal" shoes and then when she was turned away I first took her backs off and then a couple months later her fronts. I really don't think she could work without shoes but she's fine in the field though it's taken a long time with the fronts
		
Click to expand...

Well that's just dreadful     I would have no idea how a farrier would correct those collapsed heels and long toe in shoes, but that doesn't look like "it" to me. Perhaps AG will come on and tell us.


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## cptrayes (5 February 2012)

Circe said:



			Ok, I'm going to be brave here now... people can be as brutal as they like, I feel bad everyday for letting this happen to my boy.
I 100% agree with the reasons for starting this thread. I've been around/ worked with horses for 30 + yrs, but to be honest, never paid much attention to their feet. Never had a problem. thats what I paid the farrier for...
4yr old tb, worked in a riding school for 12 months, sold to me as lame with seedy toe. Fed 1/2 bucket waste feed from race track and 1 bucket of lucerne chaff while in the riding school. 
this is him after the 2nd farrier visit, he has solepack packed between the hoof and the shoe. ( to kill the seedytoe I was told. )   













this is him after 4th farrier visit













A couple of months later my boy completely broke down, lost a large amount of hoof wall and had a dropped pedal bone. Cue change of farrier. I don't have any photos that show the separation of the hoof wall, I was too traumatised by the experience.
If anyone is interested I'll dig out the shoe that the new farrier removed from my boy on his first visit...very odd shape 
this is after new farriers first visit







progression of the hoof







and 12 months later







Apologies for the photo overload, I just wanted to say that I had everyone tell me how good the first farrier was, how I was so lucky that he was doing jazz for me. I paid a hell of alot of money, asked questions and got fobbed off. I still don't understand if the farrier lost interest, or was overwhelmed, or why he didn't just stop what he was doing ? 
I'll never try jazz barefoot on the fronts ( he doesn't wear shoes on the hinds ), but I've learnt so much from this forum and the barefoot threads.  
I wish I'd known then what I know now.
Kx
PS, extremely happy with farrier now and how he shoes
		
Click to expand...



Well words fail me about the before photos! 

Don't beat yourself up, please. We all trust the farriers we pay to do a good job. It isn't your fault that you could not trust that one, you did what you needed to do and found a super one who put things right really well, didn't he?

To me as a Barefoot Taliban member, they are interesting because they show how much improvement is possible without removing the shoes when you have a really good farrier.

I'd still like to see the front of the shoe further back under the toe, but plenty of good farriers shoe to the front like that and you can't quarrel with the quality of the feet now.

To the people who think it looks like he butchered the feet, that has to be done to get air into the diseased foot. The bugs that cause the rotten feet like being without air, and if you can give them enough oxygen they find it much more difficult to multiply. If you don't take the foot apart like that, they shelter in the warm, moist dark breeding like rabbits and rotting the foot away.


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## Circe (5 February 2012)

Ladydragon said:



			That's good news...  Geez, poor thing looking at the one photo...   You're right, having some working knowledge of what the farrier does and why can't be a bad thing at all...

...
		
Click to expand...

Yes, exactly, which is why I posted on this thread. When I tried to ask my farrier questions he would fob me off, "hes a typical TB, I'll sort the shape out when the seedy toe is fixed," he out right lied to me about the state of my boys feet. 
I very foolishly didn't stand and watch him shoe my horse...Thats another mistake I don't ever repeat.
The main reason I like and trust my current farrier isn't because he does a marvelous job ( although I think he does, - there have been further improvements in my boys feet since the last photos ) its because I stand and quiz him about feeding, barefoot, why does he do this this or this, what are jazzys feet like this time, and he happily answers every question, in plain dummied down english.
Kx


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## trina1982 (5 February 2012)

Circe said:



			Ok, I'm going to be brave here now... people can be as brutal as they like, I feel bad everyday for letting this happen to my boy.
I 100% agree with the reasons for starting this thread. I've been around/ worked with horses for 30 + yrs, but to be honest, never paid much attention to their feet. Never had a problem. thats what I paid the farrier for...
4yr old tb, worked in a riding school for 12 months, sold to me as lame with seedy toe. Fed 1/2 bucket waste feed from race track and 1 bucket of lucerne chaff while in the riding school. 
this is him after the 2nd farrier visit, he has solepack packed between the hoof and the shoe. ( to kill the seedytoe I was told. )   













this is him after 4th farrier visit













A couple of months later my boy completely broke down, lost a large amount of hoof wall and had a dropped pedal bone. Cue change of farrier. I don't have any photos that show the separation of the hoof wall, I was too traumatised by the experience.
If anyone is interested I'll dig out the shoe that the new farrier removed from my boy on his first visit...very odd shape 
this is after new farriers first visit







progression of the hoof







and 12 months later







Apologies for the photo overload, I just wanted to say that I had everyone tell me how good the first farrier was, how I was so lucky that he was doing jazz for me. I paid a hell of alot of money, asked questions and got fobbed off. I still don't understand if the farrier lost interest, or was overwhelmed, or why he didn't just stop what he was doing ? 
I'll never try jazz barefoot on the fronts ( he doesn't wear shoes on the hinds ), but I've learnt so much from this forum and the barefoot threads.  
I wish I'd known then what I know now.
Kx
PS, extremely happy with farrier now and how he shoes
		
Click to expand...

Thank you for posting these (and please don't beat yourself up - you're not the first and won't be the last to trust your 'professional')

I would love to know the theory behind the obviously too big shoes. I believe the foot should be shod to mimic where the foot should be - but that foot had so much flare why would you want to encourage it to spread further?

The feet look much much better now though, and no doubt a diet change has helped reduce the flare, along with much better shoeing. My only comment would be that i *think* there could be a better heel height/angle but that is common with shod hooves. People - correct me if i'm wrong! 

So glad your story has a happy ending though
Trina x


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## A Guilding (5 February 2012)

Dont be to Harsh on the farriers I have seen nothing to bad in these photos, As some of you clinicians know that conditions that attack the hoof capsule can be very climate driven, they can cause hoof capsule failure then they correct as conditions and treatments alter. The resecting of the wall to expose the seedy toe was the correct procedure, but I will only do that these days with a vet present as it could be termed a surgical procedure.


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## Circe (5 February 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Well words fail me about the before photos! 

Don't beat yourself up, please. We all trust the farriers we pay to do a good job. It isn't your fault that you could not trust that one, you did what you needed to do and found a super one who put things right really well, didn't he?

To me as a Barefoot Taliban member, they are interesting because they show how much improvement is possible without removing the shoes when you have a really good farrier.

I'd still like to see the front of the shoe further back under the toe, but plenty of good farriers shoe to the front like that and you can't quarrel with the quality of the feet now.

To the people who think it looks like he butchered the feet, that has to be done to get air into the diseased foot. The bugs that cause the rotten feet like being without air, and if you can give them enough oxygen they find it much more difficult to multiply. If you don't take the foot apart like that, they shelter in the warm, moist dark breeding like rabbits and rotting the foot away.
		
Click to expand...

Thankyou. I do still get upset. My horse suffered so much. He had to wear a fibrecast on his hoof for a couple of months, as he managed to pull the shoe off, pulling yet more hoof wall off , then abscessed for several months. I really thought I would loose him. 
The farrier is now trying to shoe him further back, but jazz has a habit of standing on his own feet, so its a very gradual thing.
Its interesting that anyone would say 2nd farrier butchered the hoof... thats actually what I asked the first farrier to do, but he said I wouldn't like the look of it, so he packed the separation with a betadine putty, which gave the seedytoe a lovely enviroment to grow.
Kx


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## cptrayes (5 February 2012)

AliceFlapjack said:



			Ok here are photos of my boy. He is a week overdue (being shod wednesday this week) and he threw a shoe off his LF out hunting Xmas eve so it has a 'newer' shoe on.

Photos are in order: RF, RH, LH, LF



RF











RH











LH











LF










Click to expand...


 To me they look a little short in the heel but nothing unusual, especially in a hunter. Your farrier also seems to shoe every foot with one branch of the shoe longer (the outer) than the other?

I'm struck, though, by something which is very common in shod horses, and that is how different the angle of the first half inch of his feet is compared to the rest. This sometimes happens because the farrier is trying to keep the angle of the heel parallel with the angle of the front. In doing that, he leaves the heel longer. The horse counters this by putting out  a longer toe, and then the farrier has to allow the heel to get higher again to get the lines parallel. In time, over many years, the whole foot moves foward. I'm not saying that this is what has happened with your horse, but I would want to investigate why the natural angle that he wants for his foot  (the first half inch from the coronet band) is not the angle of the rest of his foot. If you compare with A Guildings son's pictures from early on, you might see what I mean. In those photos there is an unbroken line from the coronet down.


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## Circe (5 February 2012)

trina1982 said:



			Thank you for posting these (and please don't beat yourself up - you're not the first and won't be the last to trust your 'professional')

I would love to know the theory behind the obviously too big shoes. I believe the foot should be shod to mimic where the foot should be - but that foot had so much flare why would you want to encourage it to spread further?

The feet look much much better now though, and no doubt a diet change has helped reduce the flare, along with much better shoeing. My only comment would be that i *think* there could be a better heel height/angle but that is common with shod hooves. People - correct me if i'm wrong! 

So glad your story has a happy ending though
Trina x
		
Click to expand...

thankyou. I feel there has been further improvement in his feet, I just dont have more recent photos, I can try and get some tomorrow if anyone is interested. 
I learnt a lot about feeding from my farrier, and also reading some of the barefoot threads on here, and I would say that with this horse diet was the biggest factor in his feet problems.
I think the thing with the bigger shoes was to encourage the hoof to grow into them, "hoof follows metal " Ive been told.
Kx


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## cptrayes (5 February 2012)

I wish there were some more comments from someone other than me. I know a lot but I am no expert and I certainly am not a farrier. My aim in this thread is to encourage people to take a keen interest in their horse's feet so that they have a better chance of spotting problems before they happen. I hope we can do that.


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## Capriole (5 February 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I wish there were some more comments from someone other than me. I know a lot but I am no expert and I certainly am not a farrier. My aim in this thread is to encourage people to take a keen interest in their horse's feet so that they have a better chance of spotting problems before they happen. I hope we can do that.
		
Click to expand...


Its very useful. Thankyou. Its only in recent years Ive realised how much there is I dont know, and how much I thought I knew has either changed, or turned out to have never been correct in the first place 

This applies to everything, not just hooves btw...


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## Circe (5 February 2012)

A Guilding said:



			Dont be to Harsh on the farriers I have seen nothing to bad in these photos, As some of you clinicians know that conditions that attack the hoof capsule can be very climate driven, they can cause hoof capsule failure then they correct as conditions and treatments alter. The resecting of the wall to expose the seedy toe was the correct procedure, but I will only do that these days with a vet present as it could be termed a surgical procedure.
		
Click to expand...

I guess the main reason I was so upset the first farrier I used was that he wasn't truthful with me about how the hoof was progressing, when I asked him directly if he still had problems ( remembering that jazz had seedy toe when I bought him, so he was starting with a horse with a problem ) he told me he was fine, the feet were fine. I really would have preferred him to be truthful.


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## floradora09 (5 February 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I personally wouldn't be happy with these shoes. They are set on so far forward that the breakover point (where the last of the horse's foot leaves the floor as it walks) has been artificially moved forwards by quite a long way.  The last one in particular I would be very concerned about, the shoe is clearly out in front of his toe (though admittedly the toe appears to be a bit broken off)

It used to be very frowned upon 20 years ago to "dump" (rasp off) the toe. I think it is now widely recognised that bringing the breakover back by rasping off the toe and fitting the shoe back from the front edge is a good thing which will help to guard against soft tissue injury in the back half of the foot.

The heels are a different  kettle of fish and a lot of owners should compare the heels on their own horse's shoes with them. These, as far as I am concerned, are correct. Unfortunately, a lot of horses are shod a lot shorter in the heel than this, either because the owner bugs the farrier that their horse pulls off shoes too easily, or because the farrier does not want the risk of the shoes being pulled off.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for that. Shows how much I know, as I'd have said that toes looked fine but heels didn't! Before you edited I think I read something about not being rolled? He's actually got rolled toes in front, but I agree you probably can't see them from pics. He did lose some of the toe whilst being without shoes, so this probably enhances it... Food for thought though, he's onto his second shoeing now so perhaps today I shall get some pics and post? 

He does pull shoes a lot, so farrier does try to shoe in a way which minimises this, hence rolled toe and perhaps putting shoe on a little further forward? 

Along the same line of thought, what are your views on using pads to help prevent concussion during the summer months? Only reason I ask, is that I wondered if they'd help my boy, but farrier reluctant as felt they'd do more harm than good because would make him more likely to pull the shoe off.


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## trina1982 (5 February 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I wish there were some more comments from someone other than me. I know a lot but I am no expert and I certainly am not a farrier. My aim in this thread is to encourage people to take a keen interest in their horse's feet so that they have a better chance of spotting problems before they happen. I hope we can do that.
		
Click to expand...

But this either indicates that people generally aren't confident enough to tell a well shod horse from a badly shod OR don't actually care (thats the farriers job) OR do have the knowledge and are unwilling to participate (which is a real shame  ) OR think they know but don't want to give 'advice' on an open forum incase they are wrong.

If this thread though makes just one person go and objectively look at their horses feet, then job done in my opinion 

Trina x


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## sbloom (5 February 2012)

cptrayes said:



			It used to be very frowned upon 20 years ago to "dump" (rasp off) the toe. I think it is now widely recognised that bringing the breakover back by rasping off the toe and fitting the shoe back from the front edge is a good thing which will help to guard against soft tissue injury in the back half of the foot.
		
Click to expand...

But it's still really important that that toe rasping is done correctly.  I'm no expert but have experienced really good NB shoeing, and good barefoot as well as a mix of traditional farriery and certainly when I was learning more about feet (mostly 10 years ago, ish) the toe should never be rasped from the top.  This tends to give that awful bulging "bullnosed" look, where a farrier is trying to bring breakover back, and partially succeeding, but damaging the hoof wall horribly in the process.  I think this is why rasping the toe back was dissed.  The correct way is from side to side in order to leave the toe with a "return" back to the shoe, at 90 degrees to the hoof wall.  Totally different, facilitates a quick breakover, when the shoe is set back below this bevel, and does not compromise hoof wall integrity.

I'd also like to point out that the last set of pics, though by no means horrendous, does show the classic narrow frog with a large gap in front of the point of the frog before the shoe, plus a pretty narrow shoe.  This I believe is called rim shoeing and I do think it is very hard to get the feet right with this sort of approach.  The shoe should be set back as others have said, nearer the frog, and the hoof balance worked on to widen that frog.


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## A Guilding (5 February 2012)

Circe said:



			I guess the main reason I was so upset the first farrier I used was that he wasn't truthful with me about how the hoof was progressing, when I asked him directly if he still had problems ( remembering that jazz had seedy toe when I bought him, so he was starting with a horse with a problem ) he told me he was fine, the feet were fine. I really would have preferred him to be truthful.
		
Click to expand...

I,m sure you are right, but he was doing a good job, if he had a failing it was customer handling, let me tell you there is no college for that. You get burned by telling some the truth and burned for trying to be reassuring. Personally it is the hardest thing and only comes from employing someone you are comfortable with. I find you dont work for someone long if you dont have that trust in each other. But I can assure you that you did not cause your horse suffering, seedy toe can have enormous secondary problems as you found out.


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## cptrayes (5 February 2012)

floradora09 said:



			Along the same line of thought, what are your views on using pads to help prevent concussion during the summer months? Only reason I ask, is that I wondered if they'd help my boy, but farrier reluctant as felt they'd do more harm than good because would make him more likely to pull the shoe off. 



Click to expand...


Ah! One thing I did not comment because I didn't think that I could see it clearly enough is that I think your boy may have a slight outward curve (bullnose) to his hind feet. I've seen these  several times and each time they have been associated with a horse which does not deal well with excess carbohydrate, particularly spring/summer grass. If your boy does have this, then his "concussion" laminitis could actually be very low grade dietary laminitis, which is weakening the laminae and allowing the foot to become concussed.

It is possible that you would be able to control the concussion problem with a few changes to his diet - for example if you do not already do so, take him off grass from midmorning to sunset in spring and summer. If you want more information on this search the site for barefoot and diet. There is a ton of information about it which is equally applicable to shod horses.

I personally wouldn't try pads before adjusting his diet and pads would be a very last step for me because of the mess that the feet often get in underneath them.  I've used them in the past. The shoes stayed on fine but the feet went soggy underneath.


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## ester (5 February 2012)

CP I don't know whether it's appropriate to put this query here as it is slightly off thread, so I won't mind if you don't answer but wonder if my assumptions are totally wrong!

barefooters like a horse to have a nice big fat frog giving good contact and cushioning with the ground. 

I assume it is not possible for the frog to properly touch the ground in a shod horse without having the heels trimmed to low and because it doesn't touch the ground it wouldn't ever have enough stimulation to grow big enough that it could  But, farriers trimming frogs is a bad thing  but if they didn't trim, because the frog is not in contact with the ground it has nothing to wear off the rubbish bits (iyswim!). I suppose in essence is the frog of a shod hoof ever going to grow beefy enough to touch ground and look after itself?

I think if I look at a set of photos I don't really analyse them enough bar the obvious. For instance I saw aliceflapjacks and liked those feet.. mostly because I had heel jealousy!


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## ThePony (5 February 2012)

trina1982 said:



			But this either indicates that people generally aren't confident enough to tell a well shod horse from a badly shod OR don't actually care (thats the farriers job) OR do have the knowledge and are unwilling to participate (which is a real shame  ) OR think they know but don't want to give 'advice' on an open forum incase they are wrong.

If this thread though makes just one person go and objectively look at their horses feet, then job done in my opinion 

Trina x
		
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Sorry, reading and not commenting either!  It's because I just don't know enough. My ability to judge shod feet is shocking. I just don't have the knowledge. I can post and ask alot of questions though if that would help the convo?!  

I didn't spot the issues with OH mare when she was shod, so less than perfect shoeing continued for longer than it should have. I was always there when they were shod and asked the farrier how their feet were doing and no mention was ever made of the changes that were going on with her feet. I belived the answer and went on in happy ignorance. It is only with the benefit of hindsight that I can see the changes and understand that they weren't a good thing. I wouldn't have balamed my farrier for changes, but I would have appreciated him answering my questions more fully, rather than a rather short 'they are fine'. If you don't know a little about what is going on then you aren't going to know the right questions to ask. Farrier was a grand bloke and shod well, but niggles fecked her feet. Shoes came off a while after and I have made sure that my knowledge has been increased. I understand more now how important it is to know what I am looking at. 

I have to admit that other than some wince inducing examples on the yard, I still find it hard to evaluate shod feet - other than blindingly obvious stacked and contracted heels and farriers very keen for a horse to have matching feet. 

On some of the posted pics it seems that the frog isn't evenly sized on both sides - Aliceflapjack LF and one further back with the stud hole - am assuming that is because the weight distribution isn't equal. What is the reason for that?


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## cptrayes (5 February 2012)

sbloom said:



			the toe should never be rasped from the top. .
		
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I would just qualify that by saying that if a horse is in danger of overreach injuries then I think it is fine to rasp back the bottom of the hoof at the toe on the hind feet quite strongly.

And that moderate sculpting of the line and the toe on the front feet is, for me, acceptable for aesthetic purposes  (especially if the owner would be concerned by the unconventional look of a toe trimmed the way you suggest). Since there is no weight being placed on it anyway, with the shoe set back, I don't think a little thinning of the wall will cause any issues.


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## Meowy Catkin (5 February 2012)

I can't post them on this thread as my mare is shoeless at the moment, but I'll go out and take some up to date photos of her progress and I'll start a new thread for them.

I am finding this thread very interesting, thank you for starting it Cptrayes. 

Now I have become uber sensitive to how a horse is shod, the two most common things that I see are 1, flair and 2, the shoe set too far forwards (heels under-run and the breakover too far forwards).


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## milesjess (5 February 2012)

This is a great thread. I think the teaching of shoeing/ hooves is pretty poor and people aren't educated as much on it as they should be. It's great to see people seeking advice and help  very interesting thread that I'll certainly follow!


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## cptrayes (5 February 2012)

ester said:



			CP I don't know whether it's appropriate to put this query here as it is slightly off thread, so I won't mind if you don't answer but wonder if my assumptions are totally wrong!

barefooters like a horse to have a nice big fat frog giving good contact and cushioning with the ground. 

I assume it is not possible for the frog to properly touch the ground in a shod horse without having the heels trimmed to low and because it doesn't touch the ground it wouldn't ever have enough stimulation to grow big enough that it could  But, farriers trimming frogs is a bad thing  but if they didn't trim, because the frog is not in contact with the ground it has nothing to wear off the rubbish bits (iyswim!). I suppose in essence is the frog of a shod hoof ever going to grow beefy enough to touch ground and look after itself?

I think if I look at a set of photos I don't really analyse them enough bar the obvious. For instance I saw aliceflapjacks and liked those feet.. mostly because I had heel jealousy!  

Click to expand...

It is widely accepted in barefoot circles that the frog should be so firmly in contact with the ground that it is impossible to slide a steel ruler underneath it. There are, however, plenty of sound barefooters where this is not the case and my friend has one. Boxy feet often fail to achieve frog/ground contact.

I had a chat with two barefoot farriers once who assured me that they could shoe with the frog in contact with the floor. I don't believe that is true on a routine basis, because with most horses you would have to cut their heel so low to allow for the height of the shoe that you would be drawing blood. 

I think farriers trim frogs mainly because they think the owner wants to see them look neat. Unless the frog is infected or there are bits falling off, it serves no purpose that I can tell at all. Maybe AG can enlighten us.

If I had to have shoes on a horse I would be trying to work regularly in sand arenas, to get the pressure onto the frog with a semi-firm surface. I'd also be turning out in a nice lumpy bumpy paddock that would press into the frog. And I'd want to take the shoes off for 12 weeks a year to restore frog pressure for a while, like they did in the "good old days".

Regarding your jealousy of AF's heels , interestingly, the broken line of the front of the feet on AF's photos  suggest that the heel may be unnaturally high, though many people would envy them.


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## ester (5 February 2012)

lumpy bumpy paddock... check


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## Spyda (5 February 2012)

Here are mine. I posted this link back along but got mixed comments - some thought shoeing job was excellent, others were appalled! See what _you_ think http://s296.photobucket.com/albums/mm162/khovan/Shoeing 14-10-2011/ Comments welcome!


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## ester (5 February 2012)

spyda we need a password to get in!


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## Spyda (5 February 2012)

ester said:



			spyda we need a password to get in!
		
Click to expand...

Oooops, sorry - I'll make it 'public'! http://s296.photobucket.com/albums/mm162/khovan/Shoeing 14-10-2011/


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## cptrayes (5 February 2012)

ester said:



			lumpy bumpy paddock... check  

Click to expand...

Technical term 

Yup, password please Spyda


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## cptrayes (5 February 2012)

I think that is technically very good shoeing and what I would want to see on a horse of mine. It tries to mimic as far as it can the breakover of an unshod horse.

Your farrier has perhaps shod with more width at the heel than usual, but clearly he feels your horse needs that support. 

I think the problem you had with people saying that they were bad is that to the layman they look as if they don't fit (too big) and have been put on in the wrong place (too far back). In truth, those things are done deliberately and are probably at least  partly why your horse has lovely looking feet with what looks like a genuinely parallel front line and heel line.

The only hesitation that I would have is that if someone has a horse with thin soles and a stretched toe, and the farrier goes in one step for shoes as set back as yours, it is possible for the point of the pedal bone to press directly onto the top of the front of the shoe through the sole and lame the horse. So those shoes are great on a strong foot but might be too much too soon for a weak one.  This is especially true of "Natural Balance" shoeing and I think is one reason why some people are very much against it.



Are you happy with them Spyda, and more importantly, is your horse?


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## Spyda (5 February 2012)

cptrayes said:



			In truth, those things are done deliberately and are probably partly why your horse has lovely looking feet with what looks like a genuinely parallel front line and heel line.
		
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Music to my ears   Because I _am_ one of those who really doesn't know much about correct shoeing - dispite reading lots of books and trying my best to learn.


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## Oberon (5 February 2012)

ester said:



			CP I don't know whether it's appropriate to put this query here as it is slightly off thread, so I won't mind if you don't answer but wonder if my assumptions are totally wrong!

barefooters like a horse to have a nice big fat frog giving good contact and cushioning with the ground. 

I assume it is not possible for the frog to properly touch the ground in a shod horse without having the heels trimmed to low and because it doesn't touch the ground it wouldn't ever have enough stimulation to grow big enough that it could  But, farriers trimming frogs is a bad thing  but if they didn't trim, because the frog is not in contact with the ground it has nothing to wear off the rubbish bits (iyswim!). I suppose in essence is the frog of a shod hoof ever going to grow beefy enough to touch ground and look after itself?

I think if I look at a set of photos I don't really analyse them enough bar the obvious. For instance I saw aliceflapjacks and liked those feet.. mostly because I had heel jealousy!  

Click to expand...

When a horse is BF the frogs become part of the weight bearing and energy dissipation apparatus (along with the sole, walls, digital cushion, heels and circulation).

The frog, when allowed to be in contact with the ground regularly, will become denser and denser and really tough.

In shoes the frog doesn't get that contact and is soft and spongy. It can't exfoliate and will become ratty and lumpy when shed and more likely to harbour infection. So the farrier paring stops that from becoming an issue.

You can find horses that will try and extend their frogs past their shoes, but these frogs are too weak and spongy to be any use.


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## Pearlsasinger (5 February 2012)

SpottedCat said:



			No, for two reasons. Firstly I am incredibly happy with the job my farrier does, and it is totally unfair for me to post pictures of his work on the Internet and invite comment without his knowledge (I'd like him to keep shoeing for me - horse came in crippled thurs night, wouldn't weight bear, he was out 8.30 am fri morning to find the abscess, sorted it and is booked in for mon to replace shoe - refused payment). Secondly, because horse has an abscess and is a bit sore I don't think it's terribly fair on him to ask him to stand on 3 legs whilst I fanny about taking photos! 

I hope that doesn't sound like I'm not entering into the spirit of this thread - I think hoof stuff is fascinating, but my farrier hasn't asked to be critiqued in the public domain.
		
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cobmum said:



			Before and after pics would be great too, with explanation of what has been done and why. I will be the first to admit i know very little in this area but willing to learn - we all have to start somewhere and are not born knowing so any positive info is appreciated.
		
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trina1982 said:



			But this either indicates that people generally aren't confident enough to tell a well shod horse from a badly shod OR don't actually care (thats the farriers job) OR do have the knowledge and are unwilling to participate (which is a real shame  ) OR think they know but don't want to give 'advice' on an open forum incase they are wrong.

If this thread though makes just one person go and objectively look at their horses feet, then job done in my opinion 

Trina x
		
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IMO, the best way to find out about horses hooves, is to look at the real thing.  Talk to the owners, ask who their farrier is, whether the horse has been lame/had abscess/ other problem, find out if there is a reason for a particular style of shoeing, research whether good looking feet/poor looking feet have a farrier in common. 

I agree with SpottedCat that it is not ethical to post someone else's work on an open forum to be 'critiqued' by unqualified forum members, who can't agree amongst themselves.  As far as I can tell, there is only one poster on this thread who is actually qualified to comment on some-one else's shoeing.


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## whisp&willow (5 February 2012)

ive found reading this interesting, and have seen some very nicely shod feet.  (IMO) 

i would post pics of my mares feet-  but i don't think that would be fair to my farrier.  i am very happy with his work, and have no need to reassure myself that he is a good farrier.  he would be more than unhappy to find out i'd posted pics for critique on the web!!

what i will say is that she is in natural balance shoes, to keep her toes short and help bring the break-over point back and he leaves the heel branches long enough to support the heels.  he will be the first one to suggest taking shoes off if he feels the horse doesn't need them, and commented on the improvement to her feet while she had a two year breeding holiday with no shoes on!  

when i brought her back into work she was kept un-shod for as long as possible, and we only decided to put shoes on after talking about it together.  i would have put shoes on a couple of months before he did.   if she is out of work, the shoes come off, and only go back on when really needed.

xx


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## A Guilding (5 February 2012)

Frogs are to me the most important area of the foot, They are a an indicator of the whole hoof balance, if they lack health, one of that horses team aint doing there job right. Management, if your shoeing schedule doesn't match your horses feet then balance will be effected. If your trimmer talks a better job than he does then balance will be effected, that includes doing to much which usually the consequences are instant to not doing enough where the onset of conditions could be insidious. If your horse has to carry its and yours inappropriately it will show up in the feet.
If your stable management is good then it will reflect in all aspects of your horse including the feet.
I trim the frog with a very sharpe knife that way you can remove unwanted tags and peeling horn as the frog exfoliates. I like a symmetrical frog so i will trim it that way so the clefts are easily visible this will alow it to self clean and prevent areas of bacteria build up. Once properly trimmed and foot balanced it develops that healthy look you all long for.


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## cptrayes (5 February 2012)

Pearlsasinger said:



			IMO, the best way to find out about horses hooves, is to look at the real thing.  Talk to the owners, ask who their farrier is, whether the horse has been lame/had abscess/ other problem, find out if there is a reason for a particular style of shoeing, research whether good looking feet/poor looking feet have a farrier in common. 

I agree with SpottedCat that it is not ethical to post someone else's work on an open forum to be 'critiqued' by unqualified forum members, who can't agree amongst themselves.  As far as I can tell, there is only one poster on this thread who is actually qualified to comment on some-one else's shoeing.
		
Click to expand...

How many miles of countryside do you want people to drive round to do that and how many hours do you think they can afford to spend?  This thread is getting thousands of viewers and some of them are posting openly that it is opening their eyes to feet. Surely this can only be a good thing?

A horse's feet are on open display for critique all the time, showing pictures is not much different and no farrier has yet been named, I think. I also don't share your view that the only people whose comments on shoeing are worth listening to are qualified farriers.  I just wish more people would come on and stop it looking like I wanted to set myself up as a guru here, because I am definitely not one.

The whole point is to discuss different points of view. It does not matter whether we all agree or not, as long as we raise awareness of the issues. Horses are being lamed by some shoeing. Education will help prevent lame horses and that education will start with awareness.

Your comment is also fairyland, sorry. I had trouble getting my own farrier to tell me what he was doing and why, never mind anyone else's!  I can just imagine what response I am likey to get if I walk up to a farrier in a local livery yard who does not know me and start asking him why he is shoeing the way that he is   

Lets get back to shoes, shall we folks?


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## sbloom (5 February 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I would just qualify that by saying that if a horse is in danger of overreach injuries then I think it is fine to rasp back the bottom of the hoof at the toe on the hind feet quite strongly.

And that moderate sculpting of the line and the toe on the front feet is, for me, acceptable for aesthetic purposes  (especially if the owner would be concerned by the unconventional look of a toe trimmed the way you suggest). Since there is no weight being placed on it anyway, with the shoe set back, I don't think a little thinning of the wall will cause any issues.
		
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I still say there is a good way to do this and a bad way, od of course you can remove toe from a hind foot that is overreaching, but as we are both barefoot advocates ultimately, we'd also both say that the breakover of the front foot is the biggest factor in that.  I just think the dangers of rasping the toe from top down far exceed the possible benefits from doing it that way, and not at more of an angle from side to side.  And as a saddle fitter I well udnerstand about client preferences and prejudices - as do you on here, I explain the whys and wherefores, and if they still think I'm wrong, then they're not on the journey with me.  I can only do my best and I can't overcome years of people thinking it should be done "this" way.  Though I see feet and saddles ARE a little different...expenditure, frequency of visits etc, though impact on health can be pretty much as significant!

I should have also added to my first post that I have seen awful NB shoeing as well, and by farriers at the "top" of the NB training system in this country....by the by.


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## Ladydragon (5 February 2012)

Pearlsasinger said:



			IMO, the best way to find out about horses hooves, is to look at the real thing.  Talk to the owners, ask who their farrier is, whether the horse has been lame/had abscess/ other problem, find out if there is a reason for a particular style of shoeing, research whether good looking feet/poor looking feet have a farrier in common.
		
Click to expand...

a) I don't have mahoosive amounts of spare time
b) There are only three liveries on my yard - and only four horses out of fourteen are fully shod
c) I'm not qualified (in education or experience) to know if someone else's horse has had good/poor looking shoeing undertaken

This thread is very helpful for someone like me...



A Guilding said:



			I trim the frog with a very sharpe knife that way you can remove unwanted tags and peeling horn as the frog exfoliates. I like a symmetrical frog so i will trim it that way so the clefts are easily visible this will alow it to self clean and prevent areas of bacteria build up. Once properly trimmed and foot balanced it develops that healthy look you all long for.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for that...  I wasn't sure why it was carved evenly when I had some vague idea that it 'wore down'...


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## Rosehip (5 February 2012)

unbalanced said:














This is my horse's left fore shod by a super qualifed remedial farrier at his own forge with all the facilities. Photos taken on the day she was shod.

My horse is a Welsh D who has had lami in the past although not at the moment or when these pictures were taken. She was in bar shoes last summer for 'footiness' although she had normal x-rays at the time. The farrier who put these shoes on changed her out of bar shoes. 

These were her last set of shoes and I think I know all the problems with them as my trimmer has had a good look but pony is now BF so feel free to rip them apart and hit me with a few more if you want.
		
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Well seeing as how no one has had the manners to acknowledge your post, I thought I'd give you my pennys worth on your girls feet. 
I know very little really, but to me the shoe is too small and therefore looks 'tight' to the foot, also making the foot look very small and a bit boxy. 
I like that the shoe is slightly set back on the hoof, but it is too short on the heal, and is contracting the whole foot.
Hope I havent just spouted complete claptrap! x


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## ThePony (5 February 2012)

Pearlsasinger said:



			IMO, the best way to find out about horses hooves, is to look at the real thing.  Talk to the owners, ask who their farrier is, whether the horse has been lame/had abscess/ other problem, find out if there is a reason for a particular style of shoeing, research whether good looking feet/poor looking feet have a farrier in common. 

I agree with SpottedCat that it is not ethical to post someone else's work on an open forum to be 'critiqued' by unqualified forum members, who can't agree amongst themselves.  As far as I can tell, there is only one poster on this thread who is actually qualified to comment on some-one else's shoeing.
		
Click to expand...

In an ideal worl then I would certainly agree with you. I am very fortunate to be on a yard with many farriers, wide variation in the feet and the horses and also the work that is expected of them. On account of being a bit of a nerd and a rather nosey person at heart then I used to often ask questions about the horse and the feet (carefully though as questions are often taken as a veiled critisism). I'm afraid it got me nowhere! Without exception the owners (some of them friends) seemed a little ill at ease with the natter and had neither understanding of the different shoes the horse had been through or the inclination to find out. It seemed generally accepted that if the feet were problematic that it was 'just one of those things' and down to the horse growing poor feet. Often blamed on any drop of tb blood that could be found in the horse!!

I certainly don't get the impression that this thread is a critique. It is very helpful to hear the back story from owners, with some posters able to specify landmarks on the foot that we can observe so that we can get our eye in. Immensley useful I think!


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## ThePony (5 February 2012)

Rosehip said:



			Well seeing as how no one has had the manners to acknowledge your post, I thought I'd give you my pennys worth on your girls feet. 
I know very little really, but to me the shoe is too small and therefore looks 'tight' to the foot, also making the foot look very small and a bit boxy. 
I like that the shoe is slightly set back on the hoof, but it is too short on the heal, and is contracting the whole foot.
Hope I havent just spouted complete claptrap! x
		
Click to expand...

I was wondering the same about the size - but I wasn't sure if that was down to the feathers making the hoof and shoe appear smaller in comparison. I wonder if the leg was clipped (argh!!) if the shoe might appear more 'normal'?


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## cptrayes (5 February 2012)

unbalanced said:














This is my horse's left fore shod by a super qualifed remedial farrier at his own forge with all the facilities. Photos taken on the day she was shod.

My horse is a Welsh D who has had lami in the past although not at the moment or when these pictures were taken. She was in bar shoes last summer for 'footiness' although she had normal x-rays at the time. The farrier who put these shoes on changed her out of bar shoes. 

These were her last set of shoes and I think I know all the problems with them as my trimmer has had a good look but pony is now BF so feel free to rip them apart and hit me with a few more if you want.
		
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I'm sorry unbalanced I missed your post .

I'm also not happy with the "look" of your pony's feet but I think she may be one you would need to see in the flesh. As a previous laminitic it may account for why they do seem to look, somehow, in a way that is impossible to explain "tight", but of course it's impossible to tell without being able to pick up her feet.  It might also be that I'm just not used to looking at pony feet.

Was your pony happy in those shoes?

Would anyone else be questionning the size of the clip on a tiny foot, and the height of at least one of the nails?


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## A Guilding (5 February 2012)

Here is a case of frog condition, this horse has been in the field all winter and bought into work last march, its a polo pony. It had abscessed at some time before we saw it.
This trim is for the reception of a shoe that is important to say. the cleaning of the sole is done with a razor sharpe knife that will remove microns not shovel fulls


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## cptrayes (5 February 2012)

A G can you tell us if there was any particular reason to skim the whole sole clean like that with this horse, or do you routinely do that with the sole?


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## amandap (5 February 2012)

Please could someone explain what a squared toe shoe (as fitted to Spyda's horse) is designed to do?


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## cptrayes (5 February 2012)

amandap said:



			Please could someone explain what a squared toe shoe (as fitted to Spyda's horse) is designed to do?
		
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It is designed to bring back the point where the last of the horse's foot will leave the floor when it is taking a step forwards. The further back that point is, the quicker the foot leaves the floor, and the less strain is placed on the tendons in the back of the foot to "pull" the foot off the floor and the less chance there is of damaging those tendons.  (At the moment of breakover the whole foot is acting like a lever on the end of the leg. The longer the lever, the stronger the force. The shoes are trying to make the lever shorter and lessen the force. Think of trying to open a paint tin with a screwdriver. Provided you get one strong enough, the longer the screwdriver, the easier it is to open the tin.)

A horse with no shoes on usually has a "breakover point" as it is called, a good way back from the front of the hoof wall. Shoeing with the squared toe is designed to mirror that.  More and more horses are being shod with double clip front shoes to allow the toe to be brought back.


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## Jesstickle (5 February 2012)

Annoyingly I didn't take photos of feet when I last had a shod horse so the best I would be able to share would not be designed for the purpose  

Interesting thread though and I'm pretty sure my farrier wouldn't mind me posting if only I had something I could post!

These are the closest I can find to the right type of piccy, but they aren't very clear as they are cropped from her whole body so you can't really say much about them. But they were lovely feet and I really rate my farrier 













for comedy value!


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## A Guilding (5 February 2012)

cptrayes said:



			A G can you tell us if there was any particular reason to skim the whole sole clean like that with this horse, or do you routinely do that with the sole?
		
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 I think it was unnecessary and for the camera,  I will hit later


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## Oberon (5 February 2012)

amandap said:



			Please could someone explain what a squared toe shoe (as fitted to Spyda's horse) is designed to do?
		
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The shoe set back is to allow a more natural breakover and an attempt to engage the toe callous as seen in BF horses.

However the important thing to understand is that the sole and frog, as part of the weight bearing apparatus likes pressure AND release - not constant pressure.


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## Rosehip (5 February 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I'm sorry unbalanced I missed your post .

I'm also not happy with the "look" of your pony's feet but I think she may be one you would need to see in the flesh. As a previous laminitic it may account for why they do seem to look, somehow, in a way that is impossible to explain "tight", but of course it's impossible to tell without being able to pick up her feet.  It might also be that I'm just not used to looking at pony feet.

Was your pony happy in those shoes?

Would anyone else be questionning the size of the clip on a tiny foot, and the height of at least one of the nails?
		
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Interesting that you thought the same about the 'tightness' Cptrayes, I also noticed the big, pointed clip and high nail and wondered if this was used to try and reduce any flare or shedding of the hoof due to the lami? 
On the note of not being used to pony feet, the OP says that this mare is a Sec D, so about 14/14.2? Not tiny feet as we are seeing in these pictures....
My mare is a Fell,14.2 and BF, but her feet are MUCH bigger than this foot.... If you look through the feather to where the coronet band is, you can just about see that the new foot wanting to come down is largerr than the shod foot....


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## Oberon (5 February 2012)

cptrayes said:



			A G can you tell us if there was any particular reason to skim the whole sole clean like that with this horse, or do you routinely do that with the sole?
		
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Looking at the pics from a BF perspective - it sets bells, whistles and alarms in my head 
	
	
		
		
	


	





Look like a classic Strasser trim. 
	
	
		
		
	


	





Obviously being shod in prep for a shoe - it isn't too much of an issue. But if the farrier (which I am sure this farrier is sensible enough to know not to) continued to trim like that when an owner wanted to try BF - you can understand how horses go sore!


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## cptrayes (5 February 2012)

Smacked botty Oberon , keep it to shoes folks


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## A Guilding (5 February 2012)

Oberon said:



			Look like a classic Strasser trim.
		
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That is just about the most offensive thing I have heard.


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## Rowreach (5 February 2012)

lol AG your son will be black and blue 

Would he like to relocate to NI?  I have a forge and 4 bed house available for a good farrier - seems to be a distinct lack of them here 

I could post a few pictures of the work of some of our local farriers but they would shock you all to the core and I'd probably be run out of town 

Very useful thread OP


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## amandap (5 February 2012)

A Guilding said:



			That is just about the most offensive thing I have heard. 

Click to expand...

Lol! I must comment that is no where near like the 'full' Strasser trim I witnessed last year! 

Thanks cptrayes and Oberon for the explanation about square toed shoes.


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## cptrayes (5 February 2012)

Time for some guidelines? Here are mine. For me, these are usually true, though if your horse is not like it you need to ask your farrier why, not tell him that he has it wrong !   These are not the whole story by any means, they are just, for me, the obvious ones that people with shod horses can be looking out for.

The heels of the shoe must completely cover the flat surface of the heels of your horse's feet. For me, stopping short of the end of the heel plane is a big problem.

The heels of the shoe can be both wider than your horse's heels and longer, though many farriers will not shoe this way especially if you whinge to him that your horse is pulling off shoes.

It is correct for the front of the shoe not to reach the front of the hoof. Some farriers shoe like this and others don't. Two clips are normal. So is one, or less common, none.

It is correct for your horse to have feet where the line of the front of the hoof does not have any obvious bend in it from the coronet down to near the ground. If the top half inch is a different angle from the rest this_ may _show that your horse's feet are not properly balanced but you should ask your farrier about it. 

It is correct for the line of the heel and the toe to be parallel, but not if this has been achieved by having a "broken" line in the front of the foot.

The sides of the frog should not be being pushed into by the heels of the shoes.

It is normal for the coronet band to be a smooth line from front to back, and any growth rings on the feet to be level and evenly spaced. Upward curves in the hair line or the growth rings_ may_ indicate incorrect pressure on the foot at that point. 

If you are there watching when your farrier shoes, it is common for the shoe to be fitted slightly inside the edge of the hoof wall and then rasped back to the shoe once it has been nailed on. I had forty fits when I first saw this done, but later I realised that a barefoot horse normally wears off that outside bottom 1/4 inch of foot and that rasping it off is no different.

*
HEALTH WARNING*

Taking this much interest in your horse's feet can result in the development of obsessive behaviour which will result in you lying in the dirt staring at hoof lines


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## PolarSkye (5 February 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Time for some guidelines? Here are mine. For me, these are usually true, though if your horse is not like it you need to ask your farrier why, not tell him that he has it wrong !   These are not the whole story by any means, they are just, for me, the obvious ones that people with shod horses can be looking out for.

The heels of the shoe must completely cover the flat surface of the heels of your horse's feet. For me, stopping short of the end of the heel plane is a big problem.

The heels of the shoe can be both wider than your horse's heels and longer, though many farriers will not shoe this way especially if you whinge to him that your horse is pulling off shoes.

It is correct for the front of the shoe not to reach the front of the hoof. Some farriers shoe like this and others don't. Two clips are normal. So is one, or less common, none.

It is correct for your horse to have feet where the line of the front of the hoof does not have any obvious bend in it from the coronet down to near the ground. If the top half inch is a different angle from the rest this_ may _show that your horse's feet are not properly balanced but you should ask your farrier about it. 

It is correct for the line of the heel and the toe to be parallel, but not if this has been achieved by having a "broken" line in the front of the foot.

The sides of the frog should not be being pushed into by the heels of the shoes.

It is normal for the coronet band to be a smooth line from front to back, and any growth rings on the feet to be level and evenly spaced. Upward curves in the hair line or the growth rings_ may_ indicate incorrect pressure on the foot at that point. 

*
HEALTH WARNING*

Taking this much interest in your horse's feet can result in the development of obsessive behaviour which will result in you lying in the dirt staring at hoof lines 

Click to expand...

CPTrayes . . . thank you so much for this . . . I've been reading this thread with much interest having just had Kal shod by a new farrier.  He (Kal, not the farrier) has very upright/boxy feet and doesn't grow a particularly thick hoof wall (despite supplements).  What you've described above, fits perfectly with what his new farrier has done.  Kal is only shod in front these days - he has been barefoot behind since late last summer and is coping brilliantly.

Thank you, too, for the health warning . . . I must confess I may be heading down this road!

P


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## Ladydragon (5 February 2012)

A Guilding said:



			Here is a case of frog condition, this horse has been in the field all winter and bought into work last march, its a polo pony. It had abscessed at some time before we saw it.
This trim is for the reception of a shoe that is important to say. the cleaning of the sole is done with a razor sharpe knife that will remove microns not shovel fulls 

Click to expand...

That does look a lot like mine - albeit maybe not quite so clean and shiny... 

The toe also pokes over the front of the shoe slightly and they do seem to be slightly longer at the back and extend ever so slightly without touching under the bulbous bit and an itsy bit wider at the back, almost like a bit of excess shoe or slightly too long in length - probably not explaining too well and I do mean small amounts...  Although with all this mud then freezing cold I've not gotten down too close and personal since they were done on Wednesday...

Er, what's the sticky out bit on the outside edge on the right of the photo?


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## GinaGeo (5 February 2012)

Very interesting thread. Keep going!  I wish I'd seen something like this about two years ago. I don't have pictures, but do have the X-Rays. Would they be any good to show what bad shoeing can do to the inside of the hoof?

My horse's are all unshod now- so no recent pictures either!

My ridden horse has had a lot of hoof issues over the last two years. It started off with my horse pulling shoes off, off fore, alot. This foot ended up being glued to the shoe as there was so little hoof left. Problem seemed to resolve over Winter and all was fine. His back began to get very sore, he'd almost sit down on touch. God I feel awful.  We had the vet and after Flexion Tests, nerve blocks and X- rays, the problem was determined as his hind feet. While they didn't look too bad (to my very untrained eye at the time) the pedal bone had rotated backward, and were pointing upwards. This caused the back pain.

He was remedially shod and was sound and pain free due to it. He's been perfectly fine and has been competing regulalry since. But his off fore, gone boxy, is still very upright. 

So his shoes have been pulled in an attempt to help widen the heel. He's sound on Tarmac and grass. I'll start a thread with some pictures for advice when I have a working camera.


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## cptrayes (5 February 2012)

We really need to see the outside of the foot to see whether there were any warning signs on the outside that people can watch for. I'll look out for your new thread because I'd like to see it, but perhaps not on here where we are trying to identify good shoeing?

As a point of interest, I believe that the backward rotation of the pedal bones that you mention in the hind feet can sometimes be seen by an outward curve of the front of the hoof (bullnose feet).


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## Ibblebibble (5 February 2012)

this thread is fascinating i haven't had my horses shod for about 5 years now so looking at shod feet is rather odd, didn't realise i had become so accustomed to seeing barefeet  i wish i had some pics of my old girl and her feet, my farrier used to make her fronts from scratch rather than try to make standard shoes fit as she had odd shaped feet, the previous farrier didn't do that and quite often she felt very slightly lame after shoeing and i'd have to call him back out it would have been so interesting to get some opinions on the 2 farriers way of shoeing her. 
 I think it's sad really that i never paid as much attention to my horses feet when they were shod as i do now they are barefoot, i didn't feel the need to know anything because as far as i was concerned it was being taken care of by a professional, it wasn't until i changed farrier that i realised that they are not all of the same standard.


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## samlf (5 February 2012)

cptrayes said:



			It is correct for the line of the heel and the toe to be parallel, but not if this has been achieved by having a "broken" line in the front of the foot.
		
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what do you mean by this? 

It seems so strange seeing shod hooves, I dont think I've touched a shod hoof in about 6 years :-O


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## Pearlsasinger (5 February 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Your comment is also fairyland, sorry. I had trouble getting my own farrier to tell me what he was doing and why, never mind anyone else's!  I can just imagine what response I am likey to get if I walk up to a farrier in a local livery yard who does not know me and start asking him why he is shoeing the way that he is   

Click to expand...

My farrier doesn't live in fairyland, neither do I.  I don't know about you but I look at horses' feet all the time.  Every time I see a horse, I look to see how it is shod, or not. In spite of the large number of photos on here, it does seem that actually there are only about 1/2 a dozen horses being pictured.  I can see many more horses than that by going to a local show.
In the 40 yrs or so that I've kept horses I've had 4 farriers.  3 of them were 'linked' in that  the 1st one trained the business partner of the 2nd one, who trained the 4th one.  When the 2nd one relocated  before the 4th one had finished his apprenticeship we used another locally well-known farrier.  We did not like his work or attitude to the horses, so he only shod 3 times for us.  All the good ones have been more than happy to discuss their work, with any-one who asked.  The first one was very co-operative when a friends's 12 yr old wanted to take photos of him and his work for a school project. 
Now I am beginning to understand why your posts are usually so anti-farrier.


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## A Guilding (5 February 2012)

samlf said:



			what do you mean by this? 

 :-O
		
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That  is the only bit that is wrong, the heel angle and toe angle cant be parrelel it is mathematically impossible, unless the coronary band circumference was the same as the ground circumference, all the other points are good.


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## ester (5 February 2012)

cptrayes said:



			It is correct for the front of the shoe not to reach the front of the hoof. Some farriers shoe like this and others don't. Two clips are normal. So is one, or less common, none.
		
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sorry CP another query, is it possible to set the shoe back from the front of the hoof with one toe clip as opposed to two or none?


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## ester (5 February 2012)

samlf said:



			what do you mean by this? 

It seems so strange seeing shod hooves, I dont think I've touched a shod hoof in about 6 years :-O
		
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I hope aliceflapjack doesn't mind but I added some lines to illustrate what I think CP means, if wrong am sure she will say!







so the yellow lines (actual lines of front wall and heel) are parallel, however the growth at the top of the hoof wall is coming down at a different angle, as roughly illustrated by the red line, so there is a broken angle on the front wall

therefore it the parallelity  new word  might be artificial and not following the growth of the foot.


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## GinaGeo (5 February 2012)

Of course, thought it was worth mentioning. 

Yes, his hind feet did show that typical "bullnose". Wish I'd had the advice at my fingertips then, as we do now. It would have saved a lot of pain and heartache.

This is a very valuable thread. If it makes just one person, critically evaulate their horses feet, as opposed to just accepting that the proffesional must be doing right, then it's a success. 

Thank You!


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## whisp&willow (5 February 2012)

ester: its a handy illustration, but that photo doesn't look square on to me- so the parallel-ity of it could be misleading!  

and i wouldn't think that you could set a shoe back from the toe using a shoe with a toe clip.


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## floradora09 (5 February 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Ah! One thing I did not comment because I didn't think that I could see it clearly enough is that I think your boy may have a slight outward curve (bullnose) to his hind feet. I've seen these  several times and each time they have been associated with a horse which does not deal well with excess carbohydrate, particularly spring/summer grass. If your boy does have this, then his "concussion" laminitis could actually be very low grade dietary laminitis, which is weakening the laminae and allowing the foot to become concussed.

It is possible that you would be able to control the concussion problem with a few changes to his diet - for example if you do not already do so, take him off grass from midmorning to sunset in spring and summer. If you want more information on this search the site for barefoot and diet. There is a ton of information about it which is equally applicable to shod horses.

I personally wouldn't try pads before adjusting his diet and pads would be a very last step for me because of the mess that the feet often get in underneath them.  I've used them in the past. The shoes stayed on fine but the feet went soggy underneath.
		
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Oh that's interesting, hadn't realised bullnose feet were linked to diet either. Will try to dig out some better pics of his back feet if people want, in fact might link to my photobucket album so as not to clog up this thread too much!  Reason I ask is sometimes in the summer he can be more sensitive on his front feet, less tolerant to work on hard ground etc. To be fair it's only been a couple of occasions (and one was caused by a corn- the one time he was shod by a different farrier while mine was on holiday) but made me wonder if pads were worth considering. He's currently barefoot behind anyway.

Is your only/main complaint with his shoeing that they appear to be too far forward? Took a couple of pics just now- this is his 2nd shoeing and he was done about 2 weeks ago. Think they look better?


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## Oberon (5 February 2012)

ester said:



			I hope aliceflapjack doesn't mind but I added some lines to illustrate what I think CP means, if wrong am sure she will say!







so the yellow lines (actual lines of front wall and heel) are parallel, however the growth at the top of the hoof wall is coming down at a different angle, as roughly illustrated by the red line, so there is a broken angle on the front wall

therefore it the parallelity  new word  might be artificial and not following the growth of the foot.
		
Click to expand...

The upper two inches of growth from the coronet is pure and beautiful and not subject to any mechanical forces yet.

Further down is where the wall is pulling away from the coffin bone at the laminae.


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## AFlapjack (5 February 2012)

ester said:



			I hope aliceflapjack doesn't mind but I added some lines to illustrate what I think CP means, if wrong am sure she will say!
		
Click to expand...

No I don't mind 




Oberon said:



			The upper two inches of growth from the coronet is pure and beautiful and not subject to any mechanical forces yet.

Further down is where the wall is pulling away from the coffin bone at the laminae.
		
Click to expand...


Oh dear that sounds awful  So it is only happening because he is shod?


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## Oberon (5 February 2012)

AliceFlapjack said:



			Oh dear that sounds awful  So it is only happening because he is shod?
		
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Horses weren't designed to hang from the wall alone so it's very common with shod horses. Sometimes when looking at flare, you have to 'fill in' missing wall in your mind when the farrier has rasped the flare away from the outside.
But it also happens to any horse with a weakened laminae attachment - most often in BF you find it with dietary problems.

When BFers talk about "growing in a good wall connection" that is what we mean. Allowing the wall to grow all the way down at the angle the horse wants, indicated by the first two inches at the top.


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## lout (5 February 2012)

Really interesting thread....
Sorry, dont have any pics - but ive recently been riding some local Clydesdales at a stud near me. the horses have very squared off feet. 
I dont understand why, apart from "thats the way they do it!!" also, it seems common practice to trim their feet in such a way that enhances a 'cow hocked' look.

coming from a competition horse background -i dont get it at all.

can anyone tell me the pros and cons about shoeing horses in this way? I can only see the cons personally.

thanks


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## wellsat (5 February 2012)

cptrayes said:



*
HEALTH WARNING*

Taking this much interest in your horse's feet can result in the development of obsessive behaviour which will result in you lying in the dirt staring at hoof lines 

Click to expand...

My YO asked me if I was praying the other day!


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## Holly Hocks (5 February 2012)

A Guilding said:





trina1982 said:





A Guilding said:



			If you were wondering what I meant by high low heel then that would take pages.


It has one leg longer than the other, P3  has a higher angle in the front right (palmer angle) than the front left, the right knee is a bit higher, the scapular angle is a bit more acute, in a nutshell  It will have a diagnonal orientation, it will not like the right rein etc.
		
Click to expand...

A Guilding - you are completely spot on!  I can't believe you have worked this out from a couple of photos of my horses feet. She does indeed have the right knee a bit higher and yes her shoulderblade is more acute as the saddle fitter pointed out.  And when ridden she struggled tremendously with the right rein..any solution you can advise will be taken on board.
		
Click to expand...



Click to expand...


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## black_horse (5 February 2012)

Something a little different







i wonder if you can guess what this was for?


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## trina1982 (5 February 2012)

black_horse said:



			Something a little different







i wonder if you can guess what this was for?
		
Click to expand...

For attaching springs during dressage tests for extra cadence? lol (i am joking, but if that is in anyway close i wouldn't actually be that surprised - sadly)

Trina x


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## black_horse (5 February 2012)

trina1982 said:



			For attaching springs during dressage tests for extra cadence? lol (i am joking, but if that is in anyway close i wouldn't actually be that surprised - sadly)

Trina x
		
Click to expand...

HAHA yes, yes thats it 

Nope, try again 

This might help
http://www.facebook.com/v/384378695977

http://www.facebook.com/v/384378480977


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## Carefreegirl (5 February 2012)

I'm pleasantly surprised the way this thread has turned out. Reading it from the start last night I thought tin hat and run for cover but thank goodness no. I have no pics and certainly wouldn't post them without my farriers permission. However having lost my previous horse to navicular due to poor foot balance (same farrier from 8months to 10 yrs when I signed him over to a bloodbank). I learnt he'll of a lot very fast. I know have a brill farrier, got joint 1st at a county show last sept for best shod horse and I know he has well known clients who drive 6hrs with a lorry load of horses for him to shoe. Yes he's expensive compared to most but I won't put a price on my horse,a TB still being with me after the age of 10.


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## 3Beasties (5 February 2012)

black_horse said:



			Something a little different







i wonder if you can guess what this was for?
		
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Humm, to allow an abscess to drain?

I've no idea but would be interested to know!


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## Carefreegirl (5 February 2012)

Black_horse - I don't do facebook, please tell ???


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## Carefreegirl (5 February 2012)

Blinkin phone. That should read I NOW have a brill farrier and I learnt a HELL of a lot very fast.....


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## black_horse (5 February 2012)

3Beasties said:



			Humm, to allow an abscess to drain?

I've no idea but would be interested to know!
		
Click to expand...

Very very close well done 

Delicia came in from the field 9/10ths lame and nonweightbearing on her hind leg, a lot of heat but no swelling. She had a history of abesses in this foot and showed tenderness in the same area.

farrier and vet called, vet and farrier diagnosed an absess that was very deep within the hoof capsule. Farrier cut against the frog and a LOT of horrible puss came out. Wound was sterilised and packed and a poltice used. However delicia was still nonweighbearing and continually kicking out with that leg (in pain and discomforted) She kept destroying her poltices no matter how much tape we used and the wound kept becoming dirty. She was still producing puss after a week and it started coming out of her corronet band. 

The farrier created the above concoction for us. It had a screw lock lid on it which allowed us access to the wound site to clean and pack and then close the lid with the antisceptic packing in place against the wound. It took 12 weeks for it to heal correctly, she was sound after 3 weeks from initial onset of the abcess but the wound wouldnt heal properly (was very deep) so needed cleaning daily, then every other day, then once every three days. After it was healed she was shod normally and hasnt had an abcess since


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## black_horse (5 February 2012)

carefreegirl - you shouldnt have to join facebook to see the videos


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## A Guilding (5 February 2012)

black_horse said:



			carefreegirl - you shouldnt have to join facebook to see the videos 

Click to expand...

That is very well shod the fit and forging is excellent. I like the pad fit to.


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## black_horse (5 February 2012)

our farrier is amazing!
The 'pad' was a  rigid shatter proof plastic about 1cm thick (trying to find more photos to show you!) It was really hard getting the lockable lid off (have a special device to do it).

Delicia was very lame and tbh when i saw her i thought she had the infection in her bones as she was reacting so violently towards it and was so distressed. It used to take 45minutes to an hour to dress the hoof daily, in the first three weeks this was done three times a day and the hoof had to discharge into a bucket *pukes*

blurgh, was not a nice job!


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## Kaylum (5 February 2012)

how many of you know if your shoes are made or bought in, many are bought in as shoe making is not learnt at colllege but learnt through those that want to leArn and takes a good while to make a set of shoes, which is why many farriers buy in.


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## ester (5 February 2012)

mine normally buys shoes in, I think most do (at least round here!) as it means more horses shod in a day= more ££ but is currently preferring to make the bar shoes that are on mine.


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## Ladydragon (5 February 2012)

black_horse said:



			The farrier created the above concoction for us. It had a screw lock lid on it which allowed us access to the wound site to clean and pack and then close the lid with the antisceptic packing in place against the wound.
		
Click to expand...

Well blow me down with a feather...  That is really quite amazing...


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## Oliviaandsparrow (5 February 2012)

another thats seen clydes and clyde shire xs with square toes... anyone know the reason? All 4 are completely square (as in 90 degrees!) and only come about 2/3s up the foot so nothing under the heel. I can sort of comprehend this on the hinds (although still cant see its right) but on all 4?


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## Rowreach (5 February 2012)

Kaylum said:



			how many of you know if your shoes are made or bought in, many are bought in as shoe making is not learnt at colllege but learnt through those that want to leArn and takes a good while to make a set of shoes, which is why many farriers buy in.
		
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Mine are all hand made in the forge on the yard


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## 3Beasties (5 February 2012)

TB with not the best feet! He was shod approximately 4 weeks ago so these are not 'new' shoes. (sorry about the mud, we are on clay and it is a nightmare to get off despite lots of scrubbing!)

Please be nice!

NF



















NH













OF 



















OH


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## black_horse (5 February 2012)

Ladydragon said:



			Well blow me down with a feather...  That is really quite amazing... 

Click to expand...

I truely is isnt it  My farrier really is a diamond and i trust him so much with Delicia's feet


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## Ibblebibble (5 February 2012)

Kaylum said:



			how many of you know if your shoes are made or bought in, many are bought in as shoe making is not learnt at colllege but learnt through those that want to leArn and takes a good while to make a set of shoes, which is why many farriers buy in.
		
Click to expand...

both not that they are shod now but my farrier always has the bars on the van to make a shoe plus the usual assortment of ready made ones


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## A Guilding (5 February 2012)

3Beasties said:



			TB with not the best feet! He was shod approximately 4 weeks ago so these are not 'new' shoes. (sorry about the mud, we are on clay and it is a nightmare to get off despite lots of scrubbing!)

Please be nice!

NF



















NH













OF 



















OH











Click to expand...

Good job, Graduated bar shoes arnt easy to fit and that looks a good job, The near hind is crushing the outside heel does it have any issues at the back end?


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## 3Beasties (5 February 2012)

A Guilding said:



			Good job, Graduated bar shoes arnt easy to fit and that looks a good job, The near hind is crushing the outside heel does it have any issues at the back end?
		
Click to expand...

He's got arthritis in his hocks and is not the easiest to shoe behind (think due to stiffness), he does tend to drag his toes along if given a chance but he is going much better now he's had his hocks treated. The shoes from last winter were nearly worn completely through at the toe when thy were taken off!


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## Carefreegirl (5 February 2012)

Black_horse that's brill job your farrier did. Must of been a very interesting process, I love stuff like that. Didn't realise your facebook links were videos but signal is rubbish on my phone at home. I'll def have a look tomorrow at work.


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## natalia (5 February 2012)

cptrayes said:



			To me they look a little short in the heel but nothing unusual, especially in a hunter. Your farrier also seems to shoe every foot with one branch of the shoe longer (the outer) than the other?

I'm struck, though, by something which is very common in shod horses, and that is how different the angle of the first half inch of his feet is compared to the rest. This sometimes happens because the farrier is trying to keep the angle of the heel parallel with the angle of the front. In doing that, he leaves the heel longer. The horse counters this by putting out  a longer toe, and then the farrier has to allow the heel to get higher again to get the lines parallel. In time, over many years, the whole foot moves foward. I'm not saying that this is what has happened with your horse, but I would want to investigate why the natural angle that he wants for his foot  (the first half inch from the coronet band) is not the angle of the rest of his foot. If you compare with A Guildings son's pictures from early on, you might see what I mean. In those photos there is an unbroken line from the coronet down.
		
Click to expand...

The shoe with an outer edge longer is a typical "Hunter" fit shoe, my boyrfriends a farrier so I know about these things! It's like that so they don't strike or get caught up so easy with lots of road trotting.


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## destiny11 (5 February 2012)

My mare was diagnosed with very slight arthritus in her coffin joint, vet recommended natural balance.  She hasn't had one lame day since.  Only got a couple of pics.


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## twisteddiamond (5 February 2012)

these are my old boys feet, he was put on the wedges and natural balance shoes for degenerative joint issues in his feet and fetlock joints, i dont have a before pic but they were long in the toe with underrun heels (according to vet)





in the end he was retired and transistioned to barefoot as the wedges made his lameness worse, his feet we a lot better and he was much sounder, he was even able to start light work again, sadly he was pts in november due to an unrelated injury


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## AFlapjack (5 February 2012)

natalia said:



			The shoe with an outer edge longer is a typical "Hunter" fit shoe, my boyrfriends a farrier so I know about these things! It's like that so they don't strike or get caught up so easy with lots of road trotting.
		
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Interesting! I will need to ask my farrier why he chose to fit hunter shoes to my Connemara pony then  lol


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## cptrayes (5 February 2012)

A Guilding said:



			That  is the only bit that is wrong, the heel angle and toe angle cant be parrelel it is mathematically impossible, unless the coronary band circumference was the same as the ground circumference, all the other points are good.
		
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I don't agree with you and there is at least one set of pictures on here which show what I mean, where the heel and toe are parallel lines. The foot is not a circle, it's perfectly possible for it to look this way from a side on view, depending on how wide the heels are.


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## AFlapjack (5 February 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I don't agree with you and there is at least one set of pictures on here which show what I mean, where the heel and toe are parallel lines. The foot is not a circle, it's perfectly possible for it to look this way from a side on view, depending on how wide the heels are.
		
Click to expand...

Would you say my boy's hind feet have better lines than his fronts? If so, it may be interesting to add that he had his hind shoes off for a couple of months last winter...


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## cptrayes (5 February 2012)

ester said:



			sorry CP another query, is it possible to set the shoe back from the front of the hoof with one toe clip as opposed to two or none?
		
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Well put it this way. A farrier did it to one of my horses once and he bled all over the floor where he cut so deep a notch for the toe clip .

So I think the answer is no, and I always had double clip fronts on mine when I realised that the toe should be brought back.


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## cptrayes (5 February 2012)

ester said:



			I hope aliceflapjack doesn't mind but I added some lines to illustrate what I think CP means, if wrong am sure she will say!







so the yellow lines (actual lines of front wall and heel) are parallel, however the growth at the top of the hoof wall is coming down at a different angle, as roughly illustrated by the red line, so there is a broken angle on the front wall

therefore it the parallelity  new word  might be artificial and not following the growth of the foot.
		
Click to expand...

Spot on 

The trouble is that many farriers consider that parallel toe and heel to be desireable and try and shoe to get it. In the case of the foot shown, it doesn't want to be that way, and you can see from the top of the hoof, red line, what angle the horse really wants. If a horse with shod feet that look like this has his shoes removed, the whole foot usually grows down at the angle it starts off from at the top. It's this choice by the horse to grow the whole foot in at that angle if it is allowed that makes me think that the farrier may have the foot angles wrong in this case and have left the heel too high. Alternatively, it could also be diet related if the attachment of the laminae is not strong enough to hold the foot tight as it gets longer.


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## cptrayes (5 February 2012)

AliceFlapjack said:



			Would you say my boy's hind feet have better lines than his fronts? If so, it may be interesting to add that he had his hind shoes off for a couple of months last winter...
		
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A F one of the things that puzzles me is that hind feet are normally better than front feet in a less than all-round perfect horse. It may be because they are naturally steeper in angle than the fronts and take less outward force on the walls. perhaps. It may be because the fronts carry more weight, or because the backs provide more push and do more work, I have heard both suggested as the reason. But whatever the reason, many horses can happily work without backs but not without fronts.

Having said that, bilateral hind lameness is much less easy to spot than bilateral front lameness and I'll bet there are some horses struggling a bit barefoot behind whose owners simply can't tell.


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## cptrayes (5 February 2012)

Some fascinating postings while I 've been watching War Horse, thanks everyone for sharing. I love the drain hole in particular   how ingenious was that  ?



ps 1914 - stainless steel bits and stirrup irons and one cavalry officer with offset tread dressage irons? Puh-leeeze   They got the saddles and bridles right though, and I only spotted one scene where the horse began in a military bit and ended in a pelham with one rein only, on the curb.


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## AFlapjack (5 February 2012)

cptrayes said:



			A F one of the things that puzzles me is that hind feet are normally better than front feet in a less than all-round perfect horse. It may be because they are naturally steeper in angle than the fronts and take less outward force on the walls. perhaps. It may be because the fronts carry more weight, or because the backs provide more push and do more work, I have heard both suggested as the reason. But whatever the reason, many horses can happily work without backs but not without fronts.

Having said that, bilateral hind lameness is much less easy to spot than bilateral front lameness and I'll bet there are some horses struggling a bit barefoot behind whose owners simply can't tell.
		
Click to expand...

Fascinating, thanks for all the info, greatly appreciated 

ETA with regards to "it could also be diet related if the attachment of the laminae is not strong enough to hold the foot tight as it gets longer" what does this mean and what would you need to feed to help strengthen the attachment?


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## cptrayes (5 February 2012)

3Beasties said:



			TB with not the best feet! He was shod approximately 4 weeks ago so these are not 'new' shoes. (sorry about the mud, we are on clay and it is a nightmare to get off despite lots of scrubbing!)

Please be nice!

NF



















NH













OF 



















OH











Click to expand...



Have you got any tips for people how on earth you manage to stop him treading those off when he is turned out?


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## cptrayes (5 February 2012)

destiny11 said:



			My mare was diagnosed with very slight arthritus in her coffin joint, vet recommended natural balance.  She hasn't had one lame day since.  Only got a couple of pics.














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It's great that the natural balance shoes are working so well for you. I know that they are very good for many horses. Your photos are interesting because they show that your farrier has fitted them slightly inside the outer rim of the foot. I don't know if this is normal for natural balance shoeing, but it shows what I meant about the very bottom outer edge of the foot not being terribly important as far as the horse is concerned.

Your first photo also shows a great example of what I was talking about with growth rings. Growth rings show when something has changed in the horse's environment. It's usually food - things like changes of grass when it rains after a dry spell, but it can also be environmental eg extra work or something stressful. Really sensitive flowers can get them from a chemical wormer.

The interesting thing with your horse, though, is that there is a clear upwards deviation in the line of the growth ring (or possibly a downward sweep at the heel)  My understanding is that would normally suggest that there is pressure coming up from the bottom of the foot at that point, or possibly that the heel is growing much faster than the rest of the foot. A thermograph of a foot with a growth ring deviation upwards will sometimes show a hot spot on the coronet band, and bad cases will show an upward lift in the hair line as well as the line on the hoof. It is possible that your horse's foot is not quite balanced, or this could be something from the past growing out, but I would ask my farrier about it  if it was my horse.


ps your photo looks very much what I have seen other people post as Cytek shoeing, including the shoe being inside the hoof wall and the wide web toe. Can anyone clarify for us what we are seeing here?


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## unbalanced (5 February 2012)

Rosehip said:



			Well seeing as how no one has had the manners to acknowledge your post, I thought I'd give you my pennys worth on your girls feet. 
I know very little really, but to me the shoe is too small and therefore looks 'tight' to the foot, also making the foot look very small and a bit boxy. 
I like that the shoe is slightly set back on the hoof, but it is too short on the heal, and is contracting the whole foot.
Hope I havent just spouted complete claptrap! x
		
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ThePony said:



			I was wondering the same about the size - but I wasn't sure if that was down to the feathers making the hoof and shoe appear smaller in comparison. I wonder if the leg was clipped (argh!!) if the shoe might appear more 'normal'?
		
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cptrayes said:



			I'm sorry unbalanced I missed your post .

I'm also not happy with the "look" of your pony's feet but I think she may be one you would need to see in the flesh. As a previous laminitic it may account for why they do seem to look, somehow, in a way that is impossible to explain "tight", but of course it's impossible to tell without being able to pick up her feet.  It might also be that I'm just not used to looking at pony feet.

Was your pony happy in those shoes?

Would anyone else be questionning the size of the clip on a tiny foot, and the height of at least one of the nails?
		
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I've had this pony since I was a clueless 14 year old and even then I remember thinking that she had kind of small feet, especially when she didn't have back shoes on. I was so clueless that I thought the looked more 'right' with shoes on because the extra 1/4" made them look slightly bigger. That was not the actual reason for the end of the brief flirtation of barefoot behind back then, the real reason was the bruised foot and the farrier who 'cured' it by putting the shoes back on.
Here is the pony full-size so you can see feet in proportion to rest of body. Perhaps they will grow now shoes are off (they came off two weeks ago today). At any rate, it will be interesting to find out. 






As for whether the pony was happy in the shoes - well, the farrier and my vet and also Rossdales pronounced her sound in them. I am quite good at spotting lameness even bilateral ones and if I didn't you'd think that one of those people would. However, she has a very small walk, especially downhill. I haven't noticed any real improvement in the walk yet although I suppose you wouldn't expect to for a fair while. Rather unscientifically I have noticed that she has been in a better mood than usual since having them off, but I will never know if that's my imagination or not, so I should really leave that out of it as it probably isn't helpful. 

The other thing about the shoe contracting the foot - my trimmer, who has obviously seen her in the flesh, commented on contracted heels for one thing. 
One week after having it off:










It seems to me the frog is already decontracting a little - so my horse agrees about that bit anyway.
And here is the side view bare, just for interest:


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## indie999 (5 February 2012)

black_horse said:



			Very very close well done 

Delicia came in from the field 9/10ths lame and nonweightbearing on her hind leg, a lot of heat but no swelling. She had a history of abesses in this foot and showed tenderness in the same area.

farrier and vet called, vet and farrier diagnosed an absess that was very deep within the hoof capsule. Farrier cut against the frog and a LOT of horrible puss came out. Wound was sterilised and packed and a poltice used. However delicia was still nonweighbearing and continually kicking out with that leg (in pain and discomforted) She kept destroying her poltices no matter how much tape we used and the wound kept becoming dirty. She was still producing puss after a week and it started coming out of her corronet band. 

The farrier created the above concoction for us. It had a screw lock lid on it which allowed us access to the wound site to clean and pack and then close the lid with the antisceptic packing in place against the wound. It took 12 weeks for it to heal correctly, she was sound after 3 weeks from initial onset of the abcess but the wound wouldnt heal properly (was very deep) so needed cleaning daily, then every other day, then once every three days. After it was healed she was shod normally and hasnt had an abcess since 

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That was a skillful farrier have never seen anything like it...I like the screw lock lid idea too. Sounds a very nasty infection your poor horse but glad it turned out well.


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## cptrayes (5 February 2012)

3Beasties said:








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This picture puzzles me. I thought the whole point of bar shoes was to support the whole of the back of the foot. This picture clearly shows that this bar shoe has been made with a wedge shape that is deliberately thinned across the back to STOP the frog bearing on it.

Did your farrier explain why this is right for your horse?

A G can you tell us?


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## cptrayes (5 February 2012)

unbalanced said:








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This picture is interesting and if you are really interested in feet try and get a good look at your horses when the shoes are off. The hole at the toe is not that uncommon, I've seen several horses with them. In one of mine, it was caused by a toe abscess from shoe pressure due to unbalanced feet, but I believe that it's often a sign of dead laminae at the toe with a horse who has either had an attack of laminitis or has constant low grade laminitis which is not enough to make it lame.  Don't panic if you have a small mark at that point on your horse's feet, that's so common as to be, I think, possible to consider it normal. 

Also, if you have a horse who has constant abscesses, take a look when the shoe is off and you will sometimes find that hidden under the shoe, the white line is a trench of black rotted stuff, which is letting the bugs into the feet instead of being the glue it ought to be. (I think I can see it on the left of that foot in the photo, but it may be just a shadow). That's normally a dietary issue too, and you should be able to reduce or cure the abscesses by adjusting the horse's diet. Check the barefoot threads for diet advice, it applies equally well to shod feet.


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## A Guilding (6 February 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Spot on 

The trouble is that many farriers consider that parallel toe and heel to be desireable and try and shoe to get it. In the case of the foot shown, it doesn't want to be that way, and you can see from the top of the hoof, red line, what angle the horse really wants. If a horse with shod feet that look like this has his shoes removed, the whole foot usually grows down at the angle it starts off from at the top. It's this choice by the horse to grow the whole foot in at that angle if it is allowed that makes me think that the farrier may have the foot angles wrong in this case and have left the heel too high. Alternatively, it could also be diet related if the attachment of the laminae is not strong enough to hold the foot tight as it gets longer.
		
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Nope it is not possible to be the same angle. I do like pics with lines on they emphasize things,  however a few things must be remembered. This is a two dimensional image of a 3D object, no lines will be accurate when drawn on it. As your friends have pointed out all pics need to be oblique to the camera     ( 90degs) the pics that have been marked here are well on the skew.

Yep fronts are different in function and form, most important the pedal bones are different shapes. and a 60% 40% split in weight carrying between the front and hind feet.


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## A Guilding (6 February 2012)

cptrayes said:



			This picture puzzles me. I thought the whole point of bar shoes was to support the whole of the back of the foot. This picture clearly shows that this bar shoe has been made with a wedge shape that is deliberately thinned across the back to STOP the frog bearing on it.

Did your farrier explain why this is right for your horse?

A G can you tell us?
		
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Support is a banned phrase unless its emotional.
Bar shoes are much misunderstood, this horse needs some elevation and to prevent independent movement between the heels, it has been locked into a bar shoe. Its a good job. as for keeping them on, that is good management, if you leave it to charge round the field it will lose them  The other thing is if you manage to improve the movement then less shoes will come off.


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## ThePony (6 February 2012)

A Guilding said:



			Support is a banned phrase unless its emotional.
Bar shoes are much misunderstood, this horse needs some elevation and to prevent independent movement between the heels, it has been locked into a bar shoe. Its a good job. as for keeping them on, that is good management, if you leave it to charge round the field it will lose them  The other thing is if you manage to improve the movement then less shoes will come off.
		
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I was wondering the same thing. Can we remove the word support form it and answer anyway?! I'm sure we all know what cpatrays meant? My (very small) amount of understanding for the use of bar shoes led me to the same questrion. The heels can be kept level and the same without removing contact from the frog surely, a simple bar across the back fulfills that function. Why has the frog in this case been left with no possibility of making contact with any surface, and why has the chance of contact with the shoe be particularly removed by thinning the area over the frog?


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## cptrayes (6 February 2012)

Please please peeps don't turn this into a Q&A on barefoot or the merits of shoes, you will turn off all the people who are logging on to learn more about how to manage their horses with shoes on.

*Please* start another thread, I'm begging you here.


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## cptrayes (6 February 2012)

A Guilding said:



			Nope it is not possible to be the same angle. I do like pics with lines on they emphasize things,  however a few things must be remembered. This is a two dimensional image of a 3D object, no lines will be accurate when drawn on it. As your friends have pointed out all pics need to be oblique to the camera     ( 90degs) the pics that have been marked here are well on the skew.
		
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Well let's ignore for a moment whether the photo is true or false. Can we agree that many farriers strive to obtain a parallel heel and toe line, and in doing so they allow the toe to lengthen and/or the heel to come too high, just as is described in this, one of many, references I found on Google http://horsemanpro.com/articles/hoof_parallels.htm which concludes "Once when the heel and toe are parallel, the attention can be placed on the angle of the hoof and not before. Without the alignment of the heel and toe, the angle of the hoof remains distorted and not real".

You clearly don't believe this, but some farriers still appear to. I can remember years and years of "good shoeing" articles in horse magazines that stressed every time the objective of a parallel heel and toe line. The problem may be that if this is no longer what is taught in college, the older farriers have not been retrained, perhaps?

For the non-technical who are still reading, the point is not whether your horse appears to have parallel heel and toe lines. The point is that if is does have parallel lines but the top half inch of the front line is a different angle from the rest of the hoof, then however pretty the foot looks, it's probably not correctly balanced.


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## amandap (6 February 2012)

I'll ask TFC to remove my post.


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## cptrayes (6 February 2012)

Ps AG I believe our problem is a semantic one. You are of course correct in saying that in 3 dimensions the horn tubules cannot be parallel. But what the textbooks and articles are talking about is the line of the tubules from the verticle in one plane only at the toe and the heel (ie in 2 dimensions).  I can find dozens of current references on Google to the practice and in those farriers are still being encourage to shoe to those lines.


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## Piglet (6 February 2012)

If I was clever enough to upload the piccys on to the system then I would 'cos I think I have the best farrier in the world!!!!  .


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## ThePony (6 February 2012)

amandap said:



			I'll ask TFC to remove my post.
		
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Just done the same for my most recent post. Sorry, got too rambling!

I wonder if there are any farriers posting if they would be able to show before and after type pics? I find shoeing pics hard to understand esp in isolation. If we could see the changes brought about by shoeing that might look different while going through the process then I would be really interested.


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## cptrayes (6 February 2012)

Thanks guys 

Piglet are they online somewhere? You can point to them. If you right cilck on them you can copy the address of the picture into your post. If they are only on your phone or pooter somewhere, though, you would need to get them onto a blog, for example. Other people can tell you how to put them in photobucket and pick them up in  a thread.


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## Countrychic (6 February 2012)

Yes I think it should be removed because this is the first thread ever where I have felt neither side were ramming opinions on each other and I think people could learn a huge amount from this thread. My husband is a farrier and I showed him this last night and he agreed with most of what was written and said it was the first time a "barefooter" hadn't come across as god. I enjoyed reading it and learned from it too.
I don't really know about the parallel line debate but he read it and straight away said the same as AG if that helps?


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## ThePony (6 February 2012)

Phew, at last got to (semi!) grips with photo bucket.

Shoes are 4 weeks old, due to be replaced with bar shoes (vets and farriers recommendation) at next shoeing which would be a week after pic was taken. Showing front feet only.  The pic looking at both front legs isn't straight on, but the twist and the mismatched feet isn't brought about by that. Although not ideal, the photo acurrately shows how they appeared in real life.


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## cptrayes (6 February 2012)

ThePony said:



			Phew, at last got to (semi!) grips with photo bucket.

Shoes are 4 weeks old, due to be replaced with bar shoes (vets and farriers recommendation) at next shoeing which would be a week after pic was taken. Showing front feet only.  The pic looking at both front legs isn't straight on, but the twist and the mismatched feet isn't brought about by that. Although not ideal, the photo acurrately shows how they appeared in real life. 






















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That's a nice clear view from behind showing the additional width and length on the heels that seems to be recognised as best practice these days. For others, if your farrier does not do this and you do not nag him about your horse taking its shoes off too easily, you might (cautiously  ) ask him why not.

If I had to have shoes on your horse I'd want a real movment expert to shoe him/her because s/he does have a significantly wonky leg (technical term ), doesn't she? 

Have they explained why they now want him/her in bar shoes?


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## trina1982 (6 February 2012)

ThePony said:



			Phew, at last got to (semi!) grips with photo bucket.

Shoes are 4 weeks old, due to be replaced with bar shoes (vets and farriers recommendation) at next shoeing which would be a week after pic was taken. Showing front feet only.  The pic looking at both front legs isn't straight on, but the twist and the mismatched feet isn't brought about by that. Although not ideal, the photo acurrately shows how they appeared in real life. 






















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I've probably missed your story somewhere, what happened to cause the twist/mis-matched feet? Or have they always been like that?

Trina x


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## ThePony (6 February 2012)

Yup, mega wonky - the wonkyness seemed to center on the fetlock and she wasn't made that way. At the time we didn't see it build up. At the time of the pics the mare was lame with a bit of a list of symptoms that had built up over time. We had the vet out and in consultation with our farrier the solution of bar shoes was suggested along with very careful trimming to get the balance back. When the foot was trimmed into having better side to side balance then it was easier to see that the heel bulbs were at different heights. The bar shoes were to bring them back to the same level.  The frogs were in good nic at this time (thanks I think to the wider shoeing at the heel) but they did atrophy and become thrushy while the bar shoes were in place as we weren't able to get to them and grot got stuck and just stayed there. 

The twist/mismatching came about through long term but v slight medial lateral imbalance. The larger hoof is the twisty one with the lions share of imbalance. The smaller, more correct appearing, hoof was actually the one she was lame on. The conclusion was because it was taking more of the strain to relieve the uncomfortable wonky foot. 

The bar shoes did do the job and were used for a few shoeing cycles before returning to the shoes like in the pics and when tested with a metal t (sorry, don't know techie name!) the feet were level. The mare's soundness was improved, but still a very 'upright' sort of movement which kept her needing frequent physio treatment on her back.  She struggled to track up, didn't stride out, was ouchy downhill and struggled to extend in her paces, but she was sound in all paces on the flat.  She was best straight after shoeing and for just a couple of weeks after, but after a couple of weeks the lameness returned until new shoes were put on at 5 weeks. The farrier was very careful about the trimming, but the v slight imbalance that grew in between shoeing was enough to send her lame again. Farrier is excellent at being careful about the balance. I don't know why it grew unbalanced rather than balanced.  Our farrier was unhappy shoeing more frequently than every 5 weeks due to limited horn growth (our wallets were also rather worried at the prospect!). Her fronts were never made to match which I think helped her be as sound as she was, ablit for a shorter time than ideal. 

She is a mare that is astonishingly sensitive to medial lateral balance. I don't know if this is simply something personal to her, or if it is due to longterm strain of the collateral ligaments due to the balance issues.


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## cptrayes (6 February 2012)

ThePony your mare is obviously a very difficult case. Was her foot  balance checked with xrays or scans? 

Thank goodness not many horses have this much of a problem, but it perhaps goes to show that people with young horses whose growth plates are  still open (still allowing their legs to grow) need to be very aware of foot balance. An unbalanced foot at that age can result in a permanently bent leg (which is how horses born with bent legs are able to be straightened, thankfully).  The leg has different growth areas and it is possible to apply more stimulus to one side or the other and cause one side to grow more than the other.   It sounds as though this is what happened to The Pony's horse, is that right ThePony?


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## ThePony (6 February 2012)

cptrayes said:



			ThePony your mare is obviously a very difficult case. Was her foot  balance checked with xrays or scans? 

Thank goodness not many horses have this much of a problem, but it perhaps goes to show that people with young horses whose growth plates are  still open (still allowing their legs to grow) need to be very aware of foot balance. An unbalanced foot at that age can result in a permanently bent leg (which is how horses born with bent legs are able to be straightened, thankfully).  The leg has different growth areas and it is possible to apply more stimulus to one side or the other and cause one side to grow more than the other.   It sounds as though this is what happened to The Pony's horse, is that right ThePony?
		
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We didn't take her through a full lameness work up, which I guess would have included scans, as there appeared to be a reason for the lameness which could be worked on. Improving the balance improved her soundness so we didn't take things further. 

Since going through this you wouldn't believe how careful we are about balance now, I never realised quite how very important it was, and tbh I didn't know how to evaluate the balance. We have moved away from checking with a t (we still keep a close eye on things!) as we have found it can be misleading with her and we find it difficult tbh. We now grovel in the dirt waching how she places her feet. At least for us this has given us an easier way to evaluate her balance. 

The mare was 14 in these pics, so even though the growth plates were closed it was still possible for things to go awry, and fortunatly still possible for things to straighten again. I wish we did have x-rays and MRI as I would be very interested in comparing how she was then with now and also having a more complete diagnosis than wonky lol!  I wonder if because of her age, despite appearances, it wasn't actually her legs and bones that were twisted, but actually a twisting and unbalancing of the tendons and ligaments instead?  She was also very toe first in her landing, tripping because of this. I think there was alot of crap going on inside. Maybe it was better we didn't know more at the time as I think it would have scared us silly!

There is a happy ending - mare is sound and moving very much better, with less back problems too and increased correct muscle development due to this. Despite our best efforts she still grows hoof wall in an unbalanced way, but this can be managed. I don't know if this is something that will improve over time as the internal structures repair and even stimulation is applied to the hoof?


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## Hedwards (6 February 2012)

Here's connie fronts today (she is only front shod currently) farrier is coming back out on Wednesday, these have been on about 6 weeks:

NF
















OF
















Connie had concussive lami in her OF and had imprints for a while before going into the heartbar. Farrier and I ate currently discussing going barefoot (his recommendation not my request) I personally think my farrier is great, wouldn't have anyone else!


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## ThePony (6 February 2012)

Hi Hedwards,
Wondering why it might be that your mare has different shoes infront? Even though only one might need a heartbar is it usual to shoe in a not matching pair? 
Does the NF have the shoe further forward and slightly infront of the toe than the OF or is it just the shavings hiding that little bit?!
Sorry if they are stupid questions!


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## cptrayes (6 February 2012)

The open heeled shoe looks very short from the sole shot, but it may be a trick of the picture, maybe. Ditto the query about the odd shoes, I have only ever seen that done for a pedal bone fracture.


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## cptrayes (6 February 2012)

ThePony said:



			There is a happy ending - mare is sound and moving very much better, with less back problems too and increased correct muscle development due to this. Despite our best efforts she still grows hoof wall in an unbalanced way, but this can be managed. I don't know if this is something that will improve over time as the internal structures repair and even stimulation is applied to the hoof?
		
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I'm really pleased that you have worked out how to keep her sound. If you were a millionaire, it would be good to have a set of xrays over a shoeing period to try to get to the bottom of why she continues to try to grow feet in a different balance than the shoeing that makes her sound. But we can't all win the lottery, can we  ?


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## whisp&willow (6 February 2012)

Hedwards:  the only thing i'd say is that the open heeled shoe looks to stop a bit short at the heels for my liking.  i thought that may be down to the shoes being 6 wks old though.  (although from the side on shots the feet look newly shod)

i would have thought it a bit odd to have different shoes on- and would have expected for the farrier to put two heartbars on?!  did your farrier explain why?  (just out of curiosity!  )

x


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## Swirlymurphy (6 February 2012)

Can I just say what a fantastic thread this is!  I feel like I'm learning a lot and am off to photograph the mare's feet with a view to posting later.  Thank you for starting it, cptrayes, and for all of you who are contributing your photos and knowledge.


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## SophieLouBee (6 February 2012)

This thread, had me inspecting imprints in the shallow snow yesterday, then today, getting my face right in there whilst the farrier was shoeing. He must have thought I was insane, ok, more insane. 

I have 5 to photograph & show, a mix of barefoot & shod, all with different & interesting 'foot history'! I look forward to hearing opinions, as I know very little about what I am looking at (a bit more now I have inspected this thread).

Thanks!


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## ThePony (6 February 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I'm really pleased that you have worked out how to keep her sound. If you were a millionaire, it would be good to have a set of xrays over a shoeing period to try to get to the bottom of why she continues to try to grow feet in a different balance than the shoeing that makes her sound. But we can't all win the lottery, can we  ?
		
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Would LOVE that, would be so interesting!


(I know this is a non-barefoot thread, but end of the story follows in what I hope is an informative but neutral manner. Avert your eyes if you would rather, it's just it all sounds rather crypic if I say things are improved, without offering any information as to what has worked for her and what still messes things up for her!). 

With the support of our farrier mare is now barefoot. We had just run out of options as we had reached a plateau of how sound she would stay and for how long between shoeings, next step was just retirement unfortunatly. Our farrier really is excellent so I don't feel that there was anything else we could have expected him to try or improve on. Despite being careful that her feet recieve stimulation on a variety of conformable surfaces she still grows hoof wall out of balance. If she is worked over hard surfaces so that she can't rebalance what she grows then she goes lame too - so she really does grow hoof wall out of balance, rather than hoof wall that appears to be out of balance (iyswim). She isn't trimmed as that makes her lame too, as does any tidying of her feet what-so-ever. Farrier comes, looks and goes away again! Her feet are still changing though so I don't know if this will stop when she has the feet she wants. If we did have pots of cash I would love MRIs/x-rays so we could understand what is going on. Although things have improved enormously, I still feel we are working in the dark rather alot as we still have niggles.  Given how senstive she is to balance, I think it's a wonder our farrier kept her sound for as long as she was, simply seems that a human can't get things perfect enough for her.


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## 3Beasties (6 February 2012)

Have you got any tips for people how on earth you manage to stop him treading those off when he is turned out?
		
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A Guilding said:



			as for keeping them on, that is good management, if you leave it to charge round the field it will lose them  The other thing is if you manage to improve the movement then less shoes will come off.
		
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He's had these on since the middle of last summer and *touches wood* he hasn't lost one yet  I always exercise him in over reach boots but have never turned him out in them, he's not particularly silly in the field though so I guess that helps 

I should have said he's got navicular, hence the heart bars.


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## Hedwards (6 February 2012)

ThePony said:



			Hi Hedwards,
Wondering why it might be that your mare has different shoes infront? Even though only one might need a heartbar is it usual to shoe in a not matching pair? 
Does the NF have the shoe further forward and slightly infront of the toe than the OF or is it just the shavings hiding that little bit?!
Sorry if they are stupid questions!
		
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cptrayes said:



			The open heeled shoe looks very short from the sole shot, but it may be a trick of the picture, maybe. Ditto the query about the odd shoes, I have only ever seen that done for a pedal bone fracture.
		
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whisp&willow said:



			Hedwards:  the only thing i'd say is that the open heeled shoe looks to stop a bit short at the heels for my liking.  i thought that may be down to the shoes being 6 wks old though.  (although from the side on shots the feet look newly shod)

i would have thought it a bit odd to have different shoes on- and would have expected for the farrier to put two heartbars on?!  did your farrier explain why?  (just out of curiosity!  )

x
		
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I agree with the comments about the open shoe - it does feel like its a bit short - and i'll mention this to my farrier (I think and could be wrong it may have been a stand in farrier that did this shoe - my farrier definitely did the heartbar - but as one of his apprentices managed to get kicked and break his leg he had a 'stand in' do some of the shoeing)

As for odd shoes - its a good question, however, the balance/x-rays of the open shod foot were perfect, couldnt have asked for a better x-ray, so i believe it was felt there was no need to put it into a heartbar by both vet and farrier - although I may re-raise it (all this happened such a long time ago, and I was a bit of an emotional wreck everytime the vet and/or farrier came out). 

Whisp & Willow - i can assure you it was definitely 6 weeks ago she was shod - however she is retired and so the shoes will look brand new as she literally travels from stable to field and back again - all of 400 yards...


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## Bikerchickone (6 February 2012)

This thread is amazing! I currently have problems with my cob (navicular, collateral ligaments damaged in the DIP joint and he's currently got wedges on the front. My farrier is great and more then happy to explain things to me, but I tend not to ask 'loaded' questions because I really don't know what I'm talking about. My boy is a very heavyweight 15.1 cob and I've always thought his feet look too small to support all his (and my) weight. I'm going to try to add the only pictures I've got for now, please could you all let me know what you think? Please be nice, I have no idea what I'm talking about!! 











































I'm sorry the pictures aren't at the right angles, I'm afraid when I took them (for advice on another thread) I didn't know how I should take the pictures! Any comments much appreciated. I may have more pictures so will have a look. Thank you.


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## Holidays_are_coming (6 February 2012)

What do u think of these, I love my farrier and think he does a great job with my mare













Sorry angles a bit out, it's a bit wet on the floor lol 







And a hind


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## whisp&willow (6 February 2012)

Hedwards said:



			Whisp & Willow - i can assure you it was definitely 6 weeks ago she was shod - however she is retired and so the shoes will look brand new as she literally travels from stable to field and back again - all of 400 yards...
		
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it wasn't a criticism, and i wasn't saying it based on the wear on the shoes.   i just meant that the foot looks very neat, and short, and like a newly shod foot from the side on pics.  considering its six weeks since shoeing am i right in thinking that she doesn't grow much horn?  my oldie Tego who is retired only needs a slight rasp every now and then-  she doesnt grow much foot at all these days!  the farrier has a check over her every 8 weeks when he is doing my other mare, but she hardly needs anything done anymore!  (she has always been sound, and is now unshod)

x


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## cptrayes (6 February 2012)

bikerchickone said:



			This thread is amazing! I currently have problems with my cob (navicular, collateral ligaments damaged in the DIP joint and he's currently got wedges on the front. My farrier is great and more then happy to explain things to me, but I tend not to ask 'loaded' questions because I really don't know what I'm talking about. My boy is a very heavyweight 15.1 cob and I've always thought his feet look too small to support all his (and my) weight. I'm going to try to add the only pictures I've got for now, please could you all let me know what you think? Please be nice, I have no idea what I'm talking about!! 











































I'm sorry the pictures aren't at the right angles, I'm afraid when I took them (for advice on another thread) I didn't know how I should take the pictures! Any comments much appreciated. I may have more pictures so will have a look. Thank you. 

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He does look as if he has a very nice set of what I call "tin can feet"   They seem to be the same width from top to bottom.   I quite like small feet, they always seem very strong to me, but perhaps you could ask your farrier whether he would prefer to see the widen a bit towards the bottom. We can see his shoeing very well from those photos, but he's been treated in a pretty standard way for a horse with his problems. The important thing is, is he sound?


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## cptrayes (6 February 2012)

Holidays_are_coming said:



			What do u think of these, I love my farrier and think he does a great job with my mare













Sorry angles a bit out, it's a bit wet on the floor lol 







And a hind






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I think the shoes look OK (bad phtos to tell from ), possibly a bit short but nothing drastic. BUT - look at your growth rings and try and find out why your mare ins growing toe horn quicker than heel horn - there is a dip in the rings in the hoof right at the front. This will usually be a diet issue - is your horse sensitive to grass in spring?


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## cptrayes (6 February 2012)

I'm about to try and persuade someone who has sent me pics in a PM to post them. They are, from what I can see, a very good example of a normal, sound, horse in standard fitted one clip clip shoes. We've seen about every example so far except the very one which is most normal. I'll see what I can do.


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## JenHunt (6 February 2012)

definitely a very interesting thread. I've learnt a lot!

will try to get some photos this week of our boys feet. They've been shod today (poor farrier stood out in the snow with them! - he's a hero), and I feel that Ron's feet are looking at their best at the moment. Tom's fronts always look dreadful but that's because he's club foot (almost) on one so they don't match.


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## Holidays_are_coming (6 February 2012)

Not that I'm aware of, she is generally a stressy sensitive soul!!! She is fed a soley fibre diet due to having gastric ulcers!!


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## A Guilding (6 February 2012)

I havent seen a bad job on here yet, which is very encouraging. lots of well fitted shoes with lots of happy clients who love there farriers  And there is no probs with the bar shoe and open heeled shoe.


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## LeneHorse (6 February 2012)

This thread is great. I'm a bit obsessive about shoeing as my horse does not have the best feet in the world. Sorry I'm not skilled enough to put photos on, but there are a couple of general questions I'd like to ask.

1. Side clips on front shoes -are these a good thing? My farrier uses these on my mare to help bring her toe back however there is another farrier who comes to the yard who does my friends horse and he says he would never use them on any horse, he prefers front clips. I'm quite happy with the way mine is shod but just wondered what the general opinion on this is.

2. Angles - All my old books on conformation say that the angle of the hoof should match that of the pastern - is this still good practice or have things moved on. It's something I always look for as a sign of good shoeing, but maybe things have changed.

Thanks


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## cptrayes (6 February 2012)

LeneHorse said:



			This thread is great. I'm a bit obsessive about shoeing as my horse does not have the best feet in the world. Sorry I'm not skilled enough to put photos on, but there are a couple of general questions I'd like to ask.

1. Side clips on front shoes -are these a good thing? My farrier uses these on my mare to help bring her toe back however there is another farrier who comes to the yard who does my friends horse and he says he would never use them on any horse, he prefers front clips. I'm quite happy with the way mine is shod but just wondered what the general opinion on this is.

2. Angles - All my old books on conformation say that the angle of the hoof should match that of the pastern - is this still good practice or have things moved on. It's something I always look for as a sign of good shoeing, but maybe things have changed.

Thanks
		
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Personal opinion - I  love double clip front shoes and a set back toe.

Angles - I understand this is still considered correct and most horses will do it if the shoes are taken off, so I think they know it's right as well   It mirrors the angle of the shoulder too.


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## destiny11 (6 February 2012)

cptrayes said:



			It's great that the natural balance shoes are working so well for you. I know that they are very good for many horses. Your photos are interesting because they show that your farrier has fitted them slightly inside the outer rim of the foot. I don't know if this is normal for natural balance shoeing, but it shows what I meant about the very bottom outer edge of the foot not being terribly important as far as the horse is concerned.

Your first photo also shows a great example of what I was talking about with growth rings. Growth rings show when something has changed in the horse's environment. It's usually food - things like changes of grass when it rains after a dry spell, but it can also be environmental eg extra work or something stressful. Really sensitive flowers can get them from a chemical wormer.

The interesting thing with your horse, though, is that there is a clear upwards deviation in the line of the growth ring (or possibly a downward sweep at the heel)  My understanding is that would normally suggest that there is pressure coming up from the bottom of the foot at that point, or possibly that the heel is growing much faster than the rest of the foot. A thermograph of a foot with a growth ring deviation upwards will sometimes show a hot spot on the coronet band, and bad cases will show an upward lift in the hair line as well as the line on the hoof. It is possible that your horse's foot is not quite balanced, or this could be something from the past growing out, but I would ask my farrier about it  if it was my horse.


ps your photo looks very much what I have seen other people post as Cytek shoeing, including the shoe being inside the hoof wall and the wide web toe. Can anyone clarify for us what we are seeing here?
		
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Thanks for that.  This pic is from a couple of years ago.  I had a look tonight, and the curve down to the heel is not as pronounced as it was then, but there is a slight curve.  Very interesting though, I shall ask my farrier.  I am chuffed though that she has stayed sound all this time


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## A Guilding (6 February 2012)

LeneHorse said:



			This thread is great. I'm a bit obsessive about shoeing as my horse does not have the best feet in the world. Sorry I'm not skilled enough to put photos on, but there are a couple of general questions I'd like to ask.

1. Side clips on front shoes -are these a good thing? My farrier uses these on my mare to help bring her toe back however there is another farrier who comes to the yard who does my friends horse and he says he would never use them on any horse, he prefers front clips. I'm quite happy with the way mine is shod but just wondered what the general opinion on this is.

2. Angles - All my old books on conformation say that the angle of the hoof should match that of the pastern - is this still good practice or have things moved on. It's something I always look for as a sign of good shoeing, but maybe things have changed.

Thanks
		
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Side clips are very useful for holding feet together that are likely to over expand, they are in my mind easy to fit and will help reduce the unwanted pull of the long toe on the Deap Digital Flexor Tendon, and in turn the Navicular and the Navicular Bursa, they don't cure these conditions but aid in the fitting of the shoe avoid this unwanted pressure. The same can be achieved with a toe clips in a lot of cases, I think side clips are over used but that is better than long toes. If they are fitted to far under the toe it can alow the toe to drop, you can see the coronary band drop at the toe and the growth rings look uneven. the toe needs some support D) from resting on the shoe, if the shoe needs to be bought back under the toe then a rolled or rocker toe should be applied to prevent the wall from decending and distorting at the toe.

HPA hoof pastern axis that is the front of the wall and the pastern being the same angle is an absolute. If not the the trim of the hoof or the placement of the shoe is wrong. However there are some pathologies that prevent the HPA being correct.


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## galaxy (6 February 2012)

A Guilding said:



			I havent seen a bad job on here yet, which is very encouraging. lots of well fitted shoes with lots of happy clients who love there farriers  .
		
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I was thinking the same, but then the cynic in me took over that those with badly shod feet deep down know they are and have chosen not to post so they can put their heads in the sand and ignore it!!

(I'm a riding instructor and see a lot of badly shod feet!!)

Planning on taking photos of my girls feet (has toe clips) to post.  They're not perfect, but they're not bad I don't think!


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## Bikerchickone (6 February 2012)

cptrayes said:



			He does look as if he has a very nice set of what I call "tin can feet"   They seem to be the same width from top to bottom.   I quite like small feet, they always seem very strong to me, but perhaps you could ask your farrier whether he would prefer to see the widen a bit towards the bottom. We can see his shoeing very well from those photos, but he's been treated in a pretty standard way for a horse with his problems. The important thing is, is he sound?
		
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Thanks for the comments, I'm never really sure what I'm looking at, although I always thought my farrier did a good job, just was concerned about the small feet on such a big lad!

Not sure quite what to say on the soundness question. Up until last week we'd been hacking out 4 times a week for up to an hour and a half, then he had MRI on Monday of last week and vet has now suggested I don't ride him because of the problems, navicular, collateral ligaments inflamed/damaged and pedal osteitis. He's not lame but does the toe pointing thing a lot on hard surfaces. TBH I'm at a loss for what to do for him. Considering the Barefoot idea but not on this thread 

Do you think there are any problems with how he is shod? He grows hoof very quickly and has very tough feet and always has (one farrier broke his trimmers on my boy when farrier had to cancel due to illness and he went a week longer than his usual 6!) I like to ask questions of my farrier but don't like to sound like I'm questioning his expertise if you see what I mean? Do you think it reasonable to ask about letting his feet be wider at the bottom? Anyone else have any comments? Very keen to learn more about this whole grey area in my head!! 

Thanks again for the comments


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## cptrayes (6 February 2012)

bikerchickone said:



			Thanks for the comments, I'm never really sure what I'm looking at, although I always thought my farrier did a good job, just was concerned about the small feet on such a big lad!

Not sure quite what to say on the soundness question. Up until last week we'd been hacking out 4 times a week for up to an hour and a half, then he had MRI on Monday of last week and vet has now suggested I don't ride him because of the problems, navicular, collateral ligaments inflamed/damaged and pedal osteitis. He's not lame but does the toe pointing thing a lot on hard surfaces. TBH I'm at a loss for what to do for him. Considering the Barefoot idea but not on this thread 

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I would suggest that if he has damage showing on an MRI that something needs to change. I have PMd you, it's a separate discussion.


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## cptrayes (6 February 2012)

HurlyBurly said:



			My 19 Connemara, shod every 7 weeks and is due to be done this friday








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That's either a terrible photo  or your horse has quite a twist in its foot,can you tell us more?


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## cptrayes (6 February 2012)

floradora09 said:



			Reason I ask is sometimes in the summer he can be more sensitive on his front feet, less tolerant to work on hard ground etc. To be fair it's only been a couple of occasions (and one was caused by a corn- the one time he was shod by a different farrier while mine was on holiday) but made me wonder if pads were worth considering. He's currently barefoot behind anyway.
		
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Summer sensitivity is very, very  common and seems to be usually caused by excess grass sugars. Personally I would heavily restrict access to grass at peak sugar production (mid morning to evening) before I would use pads. My horses are in during that time, otherwise they cannot cope with stones with their bare feet. 



floradora09 said:



			Is your only/main complaint with his shoeing that they appear to be too far forward? Took a couple of pics just now- this is his 2nd shoeing and he was done about 2 weeks ago. Think they look better?






















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There doesn't seem much to pick holes in there. Your farrier is unusual in using unclipped shoes, does he explain why?

How long has your farrier been shoeing like this for you? I ask because mid way down the front foot there appears to be a change of angle, suggesting that a new foot has been growing in at the correct angle for about half a foot. Did something change 6 ish months ago in his shoeing, perhaps to try to correct the fact that his heels are a little underrun (the last point where the heel touches the floor is not underneath the bulbs of the heel but some way in front of it, where they can't support the leg above fully). It looks to me as if this is  a good remedial job halfway through a full foot growth??

I have a feeling that the photos may simply be deceptive, but there appears to be an upward curve to the hairline on the sides on all four feet (commonly called "the quarters"). If the upward lift is genuinely there in real life this would, I understand, normally suggest upward pressure from the shoe at that point - in other words that the sides of his feet might, possibly, be being left too long. Lots of horses, particularly barefooters, break out the sides of the feet so that they do not contact the ground/shoe on the side at all. We had a photo showing that very early on in the thread if you can find it.


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## cptrayes (6 February 2012)

I didn't intend to use this thread to set myself up as any kind of shoeing expert. It's quite funny really, I'm a committed barefooter, but maybe I wouldn't be if my farriers had been doing as good a job as we are mostly seeing here. I'm very grateful for A G's input as a farrier. If there is anyone else out there who knows their stuff, please feel free to join us.


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## cptrayes (6 February 2012)

HurlyBurly said:



			My 19 Connemara, shod every 7 weeks and is due to be done this friday









Uploaded with ImageShack.us








Uploaded with ImageShack.us

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These look like they are beautiful frogs for a pony, wide and healthy. Can't fault the shoes either but it can sometimes be difficult to get frogs as good as this in a shod pony. (My friend struggled with her own Connemara who had shrunken little frogs up inside high upright feet).  My guess would be that this one gets plenty of frog stimulation from its work or its living conditions?


19 and a grey still with black points??? He/she must look stunning


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## Jackson (6 February 2012)

Really interesting thread  

I have some old photos that you are more than welcome to look at. Jack is currently unshod, however goes from a full set of shoes, to only fronts/none at all depending on the time of year. His feet have improved loads with my farrier, I have no concerns there. There's even loads of improvement since these photos were taken last year. (note, I was taking the pictures to draw from, so they are prabably hopeless for this!)


A couple for comedy value?


























He was then put in rock and roll shoes? with two clips instead of one. what are they and what do they do?


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## viola (6 February 2012)

Pearlsasinger said:



			I agree with SpottedCat that it is not ethical to post someone else's work on an open forum to be 'critiqued' by unqualified forum members, who can't agree amongst themselves. As far as I can tell, there is only one poster on this thread who is actually qualified to comment on some-one else's shoeing..
		
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I disagree. The "work" of "horse professionals" is published on the internet all the time: questions about horse's condition (after being looked after by a nutritionist), videos and photos of lessons (with instructors), horses after physio treatments, specific training methods etc etc I can understand if someone specifically asks for certain things not to be published online and owner respecting that wish.
In all other respects, I think all horse professionals (and horse owners) could do with more responsibility for actions and be aware that their work might indeed end up somewhere on a forum (real one or virtual one).
I think the farrier's photos on here prove that if someone is proud of their work they would be happy to have it in the open for others to discuss. 

I find this thread fascinating and very educational so many thanks to cptrayes for starting it.


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## cptrayes (6 February 2012)

Jackson said:



			Really interesting thread  

I have some old photos that you are more than welcome to look at. Jack is currently unshod, however goes from a full set of shoes, to only fronts/none at all depending on the time of year. His feet have improved loads with my farrier, I have no concerns there. There's even loads of improvement since these photos were taken last year. (note, I was taking the pictures to draw from, so they are prabably hopeless for this!)










He was then put in rock and roll shoes? with two clips instead of one. what are they and what do they do? 

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Even full of dirt this photo appears to show what a beautifully circular front foot your horse has. Regular curves like that are very strong and are used by man in engineering for that reason.

Double clip front shoes are to allow the farrier to bring the length of the toe back, or sometimes used to add strength to the hold of the shoe in horses that get shoes off easily. Remind us AG, what's the saying? One clip is equal to ?? nails???


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## Jackson (6 February 2012)

Very true, Viola  The way I see it, is that you own the horse, and therefore its feet. If the farrier is worried about you showing people pictures of your own horses feet then he obviously thinks that there's something wrong with his shoeing!!


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## cptrayes (6 February 2012)

Jackson said:



			http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/179810_203657902982702_100000154802712_891878_3995128_n.jpg[/IMG]






These are interesting and the first we have seen. A lot of owners would worry about "cracks" like these. Usually, though, they are just lines in the hoof wall or very shallow grooves and of no concern. Your farrier will tell you if they are anything to worry about. Unless they move apart when the horse does, they should not cause a problem.

I have a barefoot horse with two lines like this on each back foot and whatever I do I cannot get rid of them though they drive me nuts. After all, he's barefoot, he's supposed to be perfect   !!
		
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## indie999 (6 February 2012)

viola said:



			I disagree. The "work" of "horse professionals" is published on the internet all the time: questions about horse's condition (after being looked after by a nutritionist), videos and photos of lessons (with instructors), horses after physio treatments, specific training methods etc etc I can understand if someone specifically asks for certain things not to be published online and owner respecting that wish.
In all other respects, I think all horse professionals (and horse owners) could do with more responsibility for actions and be aware that their work might indeed end up somewhere on a forum (real one or virtual one).
I think the farrier's photos on here prove that if someone is proud of their work they would be happy to have it in the open for others to discuss. 

I find this thread fascinating and very educational so many thanks to cptrayes for starting it.
		
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If I posted a picture of my toes will you be able to identify me too?

I agree if its my horses feet and I want to post a picture for comment I paid for the service and he is in the public domain/eye, etc so if people want to post be it a wound that a vet has treated why not? or a badly saddle fitted or a good one. As long as they own the animal and dont name the person who treated the animal ie I have no idea who any of the posters are on this forum anyway so whats the problem. So please continue this is one of the nicest foot threads on here.


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## floradora09 (6 February 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Summer sensitivity is very, very  common and seems to be usually caused by excess grass sugars. Personally I would heavily restrict access to grass at peak sugar production (mid morning to evening) before I would use pads. My horses are in during that time, otherwise they cannot cope with stones with their bare feet. 



There doesn't seem much to pick holes in there. Your farrier is unusual in using unclipped shoes, does he explain why?
		
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Fab! Thanks, I was a bit concerned by your reaction to my first set of pics- I've always wholly trusted my farrier and felt he does a good job. Must have just looked that way due to the toe being worn away a bit more whilst being barefoot, but will keep it in mind in the future anyway! 

Re the sugar sensitivity, I always thought it was more related to concussion/poor feet/hard ground than anything else- although his feet have improved a lot since having a 2 month break from shoes, so will see how he is this summer- and consider trying to reduce grass intake if needed. 

Re the clips- it's not that clear on the pic but instead of front toe clips he has it rolled, to help breakover and stop him pulling shoes so much. I presume you can't have this as well as toe/quarter clips anyway? When he's shod behind he has quarter clips tho.

Some very interesting (as in good interesting!) farriery on here


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## A Guilding (6 February 2012)

This is a before and after few pics. This injury was a tread on the coronary band that went un trimmed for 6 months before we saw it.







We cleaned out the crack and re sculptured a foot with a rasp and Knife.







We fitted a bar shoe, which the owner still wanted a stud hole in, we did recomend that they didnt use it though.






these pics were all taken the same day.


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## Jackson (6 February 2012)

cptrayes said:



			These are interesting and the first we have seen. A lot of owners would worry about "cracks" like these. Usually, though, they are just lines in the hoof wall or very shallow grooves and of no concern. Your farrier will tell you if they are anything to worry about. Unless they move apart when the horse does, they should not cause a problem.
		
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Thank you  His fronts are very circular. I know this is naughty, but here is a pic of his bare front one day after we took his shoes off.






The cracks have pretty much gone now. He still has a few lines. Could this have been because he spent last winter stabled on lots of hard feed and haylage compared to this summer and winter on poor grazing and soaked hay with no feed? (less sugar?)


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## A Guilding (6 February 2012)

The same foot 9 months on and not without a few probs on the way.


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## trina1982 (6 February 2012)

cptrayes said:



			(My friend struggled with her own Connemara who had shrunken little frogs up inside high upright feet)




			Slightly off topic - i'm sure i've read somewhere about connemara's having a genetic condition linked to feet

Found a link here http://connemara-pony.blogspot.com/2012/01/genetic-diseases-why-some-people.html

Not sure if it rings any bells? Thought it worth a mention. It's called soft foot apparently.

Trina x
		
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Click to expand...


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## cptrayes (6 February 2012)

floradora09 said:



			Re the sugar sensitivity, I always thought it was more related to concussion/poor feet/hard ground than anything else- although his feet have improved a lot since having a 2 month break from shoes, so will see how he is this summer- and consider trying to reduce grass intake if needed.
		
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This is one of the ways that I believe barefoot has truly helped shod horses. It's very clear to many people with barefoot horses, including 2 of my 3, that they can't tread on stones and ignore them if they are eating spring and summer grass during the hours 11am to early evening. This is when grass has the most sugar in it, it varies from hour to hour. This grass causes sensitivity in the sole, but also a loss of strength in the laminae, which would mean that if you then went and did work on hard ground, shod or unshod, the horse could get what would then be described as concussion laminitis. It's my belief from having barefooters that a lot of concussion laminitis would not happen if the horse was restricted from eating too much daylight grass. Modern ryegrass diary orientated grazing is a real nightmare for horses.  It really does take only a couple of days to loosen off the laminae, you can see the sole drop in a barefoot horse in that time. 

This is still a theory, but it certainly fits with what we are seeing. So many horses go unsound when the ground goes hard, but when is the ground hard? In spring and summer when the grass is  most rich.

Enough barefoot, back to shoes!

Except that I am just about to watch Whitechapel for a couple of hours


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## Jesstickle (6 February 2012)

A Guilding said:



			This is a before and after few pics. This injury was a tread on the coronary band that went un trimmed for 6 months before we saw it.






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Eep!


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## ester (6 February 2012)

I'm going to put these up as they might help others to see what is up with them! Would welcome any comments from AG, it has also reminded me that I need to take some more recent ones again. It is definitely easier to see any changes putting pics side by side. 

these were from early november, 19yo welsh cob  previously in full work, been hunting etc., occasionally showing some shortness of stride, lacking in medium trot put down to poss stiffness behind, went from sound to lame in about a week.  CP has already seen them and was very useful in her comments. 

left fore (shoeless)















right fore (shod)























Pony lame on left fore (hence shoe off) initial trip to vets = nerve blocked to back of foot, xrays indicated 0 palmar angle of the pedal bone. 

................Much thinking and contacting for opinions by ester.........

Pony put in bar shoes

LF






RF













spent 6 weeks in these, still not proper sound so another trip to vets. Declared 50% sounder on a circle on hard ground. nerve blocked coffin joint = pony sound. Later that week steroid and HA into the joint and reshod. Pony now 95-99% soundish (I have no hard circles to test completely) and being brought back into work slowly to see how we go, now hacking for about an hour mostly in walk but with some trot.


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## whisp&willow (6 February 2012)

nice job A Guilding!  where abouts in the country are you?  just being nosey!  

x


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## floradora09 (6 February 2012)

cptrayes said:



			How long has your farrier been shoeing like this for you? I ask because mid way down the front foot there appears to be a change of angle, suggesting that a new foot has been growing in at the correct angle for about half a foot. Did something change 6 ish months ago in his shoeing, perhaps to try to correct the fact that his heels are a little underrun (the last point where the heel touches the floor is not underneath the bulbs of the heel but some way in front of it, where they can't support the leg above fully). It looks to me as if this is  a good remedial job halfway through a full foot growth??

I have a feeling that the photos may simply be deceptive, but there appears to be an upward curve to the hairline on the sides on all four feet (commonly called "the quarters"). If the upward lift is genuinely there in real life this would, I understand, normally suggest upward pressure from the shoe at that point - in other words that the sides of his feet might, possibly, be being left too long. Lots of horses, particularly barefooters, break out the sides of the feet so that they do not contact the ground/shoe on the side at all. We had a photo showing that very early on in the thread if you can find it.
		
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Ooh interesting. I'm 90% certain nothing has been changed in the way he's shod for a good 18 months. The only big thing is that his shoes were removed at the end of october to december. But that was only 4 months ago. Before his barefoot stint:






After:






Before:





After:






Perhaps this is the reason? 

Regarding the upward curve, I think it is the angle of the photo as I've never noticed it before and doesn't seem to appear on any of the other photos- but then again next time I've got the mud off his feet will have a look!  I'll scroll back a few pages to see what the other horse's pic looks like. 

Many thanks- I'm learning a lot from this thread!


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## ester (6 February 2012)

[/QUOTE]


I am always amazed that a foot can look like that and still be 'ok' so to speak, ie it doesn't all fall apart of bleed everywhere!


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## A Guilding (6 February 2012)

whisp&willow said:



			nice job A Guilding!  where abouts in the country are you?  just being nosey!  

x
		
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South of you .


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## Eaglestone (6 February 2012)

I am really enjoying this thread, so I thought I would add my pics.

Sorry for the picture overload & size (I have taken pictures, every (bar one! I think) shoeing for many years now ....

I would really appreciate any comments, positive or negative, as I am open to anything (I think!! )

Shoeing 24th April 2010




















Shoeing 5th June 2010















Shoeing 2nd September 2011



























Shoeing 15th October 2011





















Shoeing 6th January 2012


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## AFlapjack (6 February 2012)

trina1982 said:





cptrayes said:



			(My friend struggled with her own Connemara who had shrunken little frogs up inside high upright feet)




			Slightly off topic - i'm sure i've read somewhere about connemara's having a genetic condition linked to feet

Found a link here http://connemara-pony.blogspot.com/2012/01/genetic-diseases-why-some-people.html

Not sure if it rings any bells? Thought it worth a mention. It's called soft foot apparently.

Trina x
		
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This is really interesting! Thanks for posting
		
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## viola (6 February 2012)

The below photo was taken 2 years ago. Horse diagnosed with navicular ( diagnosed on Xrays and nerve blocked to back of the foot) in both front feet. The below is a combined decision of then vet and then farrier: 






[/url]

Horse became progressively lamer over the next few weeks when this solution was suggested (together with cortisone injections and Tildren):






[/url]






[/url]

He became much sounder...for about a couple of weeks and then everything went downhill. He could not even trot on a circle for the vet (would do canter like hops if asked for a trot). We were advised to PTS. 

We then went barefoot and his feet look very different now and are very much usable  Still learning how to get his diet right and how to exercise him for feet health with other issues we need to consider but I won't put his barefoot pics up to keep up with the shoeing post.
Here are his feet in Jan 2012 on a video if anybody was interested: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BK8X5h-8VTw


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## somethingorother (6 February 2012)

viola said:



			I disagree. The "work" of "horse professionals" is published on the internet all the time: questions about horse's condition (after being looked after by a nutritionist), videos and photos of lessons (with instructors), horses after physio treatments, specific training methods etc etc I can understand if someone specifically asks for certain things not to be published online and owner respecting that wish.
In all other respects, I think all horse professionals (and horse owners) could do with more responsibility for actions and be aware that their work might indeed end up somewhere on a forum (real one or virtual one).
I think the farrier's photos on here prove that if someone is proud of their work they would be happy to have it in the open for others to discuss. 

I find this thread fascinating and very educational so many thanks to cptrayes for starting it.
		
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I have loved looking at this thread, feet are so important, but some people take no interest and let their farrier slap anything on, any old way. 

Maybe if they had posted pictures for 'non professionals' and other farriers to view, some horses would not have spent their lives uncomfortable when it was just bad shoes. It's hard to find a good farrier, many qualified farriers i have met, i would not use. There's been lots of nice feet on here though


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## cptrayes (6 February 2012)

floradora09 said:



			Ooh interesting. I'm 90% certain nothing has been changed in the way he's shod for a good 18 months. The only big thing is that his shoes were removed at the end of october to december. But that was only 4 months ago. !
		
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That's it! Barefoot feet usually grow a lot quicker than shod ones, it's the line from taking him barefoot. Now you can watch that line and you'll know that if it stays straight, it will be the foot balance that he wants. If it deviates again then you will know that either the shoeing is not balanced or that he is just a horse who will benefit from a  period out of shoes every year.


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## MissMistletoe (6 February 2012)

somethingorother said:



			I have loved looking at this thread, feet are so important, but some people take no interest and let their farrier slap anything on, any old way. 

Maybe if they had posted pictures for 'non professionals' and other farriers to view, some horses would not have spent their lives uncomfortable when it was just bad shoes. It's hard to find a good farrier, many qualified farriers i have met, i would not use. There's been lots of nice feet on here though 

Click to expand...

Agreed!

Please let's keep this thread alive. It's been and will continue to be a great educational tool.


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## cptrayes (6 February 2012)

Eaglestone said:



			I am really enjoying this thread, so I thought I would add my pics.

Sorry for the picture overload & size (I have taken pictures, every (bar one! I think) shoeing for many years now ....

I would really appreciate any comments, positive or negative, as I am open to anything (I think!! )

Shoeing 24th April 2010




















Shoeing 5th June 2010















Shoeing 2nd September 2011



























Shoeing 15th October 2011





















Shoeing 6th January 2012
















































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Your horse has some infection in the hoof wall that looks to me to be pretty severe. If your farrier cannot suggest how to put it right I think that you need to look at two things:

1. disinfection.  there are several products which will do this, I use hydrogen peroxide at 3% and I would be using it daily on those feet.

2. nutrition. Crumbling hoof wall like that is often caused by dietary problems. The first guess is always too much sugar, but mineral imbalances can be an issue too. If you do a search on the forum you will find plenty of information about both.

Unless you know that yoru horse has a metabolic problem like Cushings and are already treating it, it looks to me like you could have some nasty trouble brewing there that needs to be got on top of.


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## whisp&willow (6 February 2012)

A Guilding said:



			South of you . 

Click to expand...

  thought so!


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## Tinypony (6 February 2012)

Very interesting thread, thanks to Cptrayes and all the people who have kindly contributed.

Eaglestone, I'd be a bit worried about those hooves, but to be fair to the farrier, would you be able to tell us what he says is going on and what he suggests doing about it?  I wouldn't want to worry you if everything's under control, but if not then you could get some seriously useful help via this thread.


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## ester (6 February 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Your horse has some infection in the hoof wall that looks to me to be pretty severe. If your farrier cannot suggest how to put it right I think that you need to look at two things:

1. disinfection.  there are several products which will do this, I use hydrogen peroxide at 3% and I would be using it daily on those feet.

2. nutrition. Crumbling hoof wall like that is often caused by dietary problems. The first guess is always too much sugar, but mineral imbalances can be an issue too. If you do a search on the forum you will find plenty of information about both.

Unless you know that yoru horse has a metabolic problem like Cushings and are already treating it, it looks to me like you could have some nasty trouble brewing there that needs to be got on top of.
		
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CP I think they are motor's feet and iirc he does have cushings. I am sure eaglestone will correct me if wrong!


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## Eaglestone (6 February 2012)

Thank you all for your replies 



			
				Tinypony said:
			
		


			Eaglestone, I'd be a bit worried about those hooves, but to be fair to the farrier, would you be able to tell us what he says is going on and what he suggests doing about it? I wouldn't want to worry you if everything's under control, but if not then you could get some seriously useful help via this thread.
		
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Thank you for replying Tinypony, my Farrier is on top of it, my response is below ...



			
				Ester said:
			
		


			CP I think they are motor's feet and iirc he does have cushings. I am sure eaglestone will correct me if wrong!
		
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Ester I am delighted that someone 'knows' Motor, I am flattered 



cptrayes said:



			Your horse has some infection in the hoof wall that looks to me to be pretty severe. If your farrier cannot suggest how to put it right I think that you need to look at two things:

1. disinfection.  there are several products which will do this, I use hydrogen peroxide at 3% and I would be using it daily on those feet.

2. nutrition. Crumbling hoof wall like that is often caused by dietary problems. The first guess is always too much sugar, but mineral imbalances can be an issue too. If you do a search on the forum you will find plenty of information about both.

Unless you know that yoru horse has a metabolic problem like Cushings and are already treating it, it looks to me like you could have some nasty trouble brewing there that needs to be got on top of.
		
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A very good observation and thank you for your reply Cptrayes 

Motor is my lovely Welsh D x Hackney, who I have owned for nearly 21 years and he is 'Rising 31' now .... see my Siggie below, which was taken in 2007 

In a nutshell .... he went down with Cushings Induced Laminitis in October 2005 and suffered 10 degrees rotation of the Pedal Bone.  As time has gone on the hoof wall looks worse after each shoeing.  The Farrier and the Vet got him through that awful time - he was on 5 months box rest and in that time he only came out for the Vet or Farrier.

He has been in Pergolide for the 6 plus years and all I can say is that it is a wonder drug.  Funnily enough two shoeings ago, I did not take the usual pictures of his feet and the day after he was shod, he went down with Laminitis again for first time in 6 years  ..... spooky or what.

He has always had 'cr*p' feet, so I think it is a miracle that he got through it.

I would also like to know opinions regarding the actual shoeing, putting the  Necrotic hoof wall aside for the moment?

ETS ... the last pic, which I think looks awful, was the last shoeing, where the Farrier was sooooooooooo careful, so as not to set off a bout of the horrid 'L' word ..... and he had me fussing and flapping in the background


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## cptrayes (7 February 2012)

I think considering his problems that your farrier is marvellous for having kept him going so long and not just giving up on him. Is there any chance of using plastic glue-on shoes? I know they cost a fortune, which you might not have, I just wonder if it's a possible option for him to avoid the concussion of nailing on steel ones.

Cushings can be such a heartbreaking disease to manage, I wish you well with him.


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## minkymoo (7 February 2012)

I've read this thread with interest. I know little about feet other than what I have gleaned from
My own farrier when I see him (I work ft). 

Having looked at some of the pics (namely those posted by khovan http://m296.photobucket.com/albumview/albums/khovan/Shoeing 14-10-2011/IMG_5046.jpg.html?o=4) and would like to know why there is so much toe over the shoe itself. 

I agree that this kind if thread is so informative


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## dafthoss (7 February 2012)

What an intresting post, I'm so used to seeing my boys feet who doesnt have shoes on shod feet can look rather diffrent .


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## sbloom (7 February 2012)

minkymoo said:



			I've read this thread with interest. I know little about feet other than what I have gleaned from
My own farrier when I see him (I work ft). 

Having looked at some of the pics (namely those posted by khovan http://m296.photobucket.com/albumview/albums/khovan/Shoeing 14-10-2011/IMG_5046.jpg.html?o=4) and would like to know why there is so much toe over the shoe itself. 

I agree that this kind if thread is so informative 

Click to expand...

It does look like more than normal even with this stype of shoeing but it may be the angle.  The shoe it set back to quicken breakover, so the toe is not left behind at the end of the stride, but to cut the toe back that far would not be possible, so the tip of the toe is removed only, just enough to allow the hoof to roll over on the front edge of the shoe.


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## Spyda (7 February 2012)

sbloom said:



			It does look like more than normal even with this stype of shoeing but it may be the angle.  The shoe it set back to quicken breakover, so the toe is not left behind at the end of the stride, but to cut the toe back that far would not be possible, so the tip of the toe is removed only, just enough to allow the hoof to roll over on the front edge of the shoe.
		
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I should just like to say that there was a load more hoof left over-hanging the shoe than normal. My normal farrier's recently qualitfied apprentice had  done this set. My normal farrier has taken over the shoeing once again and a much less over-hang is left now. Back to normal.
The only reason my mare is shod this way is because she's inclined to pull her front shoes off. That's the only reason. She has bilateral bench knees infront, so her front shoes are set in such a way that they are more easily caught when she's messing about in the field.


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## trina1982 (7 February 2012)

This thread has certainly attracted attention. Look at how many views there are, and i have had links to it appear on my facebook feed from various blogs/sites i follow.

Good thread cptrayes!!

Trina x


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## ThePony (7 February 2012)

Thank you for posting a before and after A Guilding. Why was the horse left for 6 months initally before you were able to trim him? Amazing that the massive crack had joined at the top of the foot even with the stresses that must have been going through it from the open crack and the hoof wall left so long. Brilliant pics!!

Ace thread, more pics please guys, I'm learing huge amounts!! Thank you cptrayes!!


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## riding_high (7 February 2012)

ok hopefully this will work.
these are pics of my horses feet taken a couple of years ago. feel free to say what you think. he had to have rolled toes on the front (vets advice).


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## riding_high (7 February 2012)

yikes sorry the pics are massive, i thought i resized them.


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## Suechoccy (7 February 2012)

Never under-estimate sandcracks and broken sidewalls!  My horse's off-fore has been on a long journey with these. 

I have four photos (2 before, 2 in-midst-of-reshaping) at:

http://s1149.photobucket.com/albums/o597/suechoccy/

When I bought him he had nice-shaped feet, no cracks, and he dished with his off-fore.

Under my farrier, his feet gradually became longer.  Shod with a central toeclip, a small sandcrack appeared on off-fore toe. It grew longer over a period of about 18 months, as did the toes, while the heels became progressively under-run and the hoof/pastern axis broke.  He remained sound, amazingly.    (See two pix on left in the album).

Every time I mentioned the sandcrack to the farrier, he said it was one of those things, and not helped by him dishing.  The crack grew longer, the toes grew longer, the sidewall crumbled more, eventually the sandcrack reached all the way to the coronet band.

My vet recommended a new farrier whom I've now used for 6 or 7 years. He has done a fantastic job on my horse's feet.

On the first visit,  the sandcrack was cut back to clean hoof. It was a deep narrow crack which couldn't be left unsupported so he bridged across the crack with an araldite resin but warned I must be vigilant for abscesses underneath, esp as my horse lived out. The idea was the resin would stay in place, only being rasped off as the hoof reached the toe on each shoeing, so the resin would gradually grow out.  

Two months later, the horse got an infection under the bridge, went lame and when the resin was pared back, out shot a jet of black crumbly gunge.  Cleaning the rotten hoof left us with pix 3 - a massive hole in the front of the hoof above the toe Thankfully it didn't extend to the coronet band or to the pedal bone. The farrier decided to leave it open (pix 3) with remaining bridge being enough to support the hoof as there was already some good regrowth at coronet band.

Pic 4 shows the point we got too a few months later where the araldite was rasped off and the remaining portion of crack cleaned out (the hoof wall isn't normally rasped as high as that!).

(I realise what's missing is a pix 5 and 6 of how lovely the hooves look now, axis correct, no cracks, no broken sidewalls, properly supported heels!), and he's now shod with shoes with 2 sideclips, which keeps pressure off the toe and also allows the shoe to be set further back to allow his toe a better breakover point. (The new farrier is ace at explaining things and I can ask him loads of questions).


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## Bramble74 (7 February 2012)

Being brave - as requested by cptrayes on page 20, pictures of my boys feet just shod, this was December 2011 the previous shoeing (just re shod last Saturday, but phone had died so no piccies).

I am very pleased with this Farrier, he listens! Having run the gauntlet in the past, and especially with the near fore (pictured) which is bad to balance, I am more than happy with his work.

Any comments welcome, thanks cp for those already given, although still feeling a little nervous being quite new to all this posting...

Thanks

http://www.flickr.com/photos/5680823...7629201157067/


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## ThePony (7 February 2012)

riding_high said:



			yikes sorry the pics are massive, i thought i resized them.
		
Click to expand...

Hi,
Was there a problem with your horse that meant he needed shoes like that infront? Do you know what they offered that some more 'normal' shoes wouldn't like the 2 clip ones set a little back from the toe?
Never seen shoes like that, really interesting!


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## ester (7 February 2012)

Bramble74 said:



			Being brave - as requested by cptrayes on page 20, pictures of my boys feet just shod, this was December 2011 the previous shoeing (just re shod last Saturday, but phone had died so no piccies).

I am very pleased with this Farrier, he listens! Having run the gauntlet in the past, and especially with the near fore (pictured) which is bad to balance, I am more than happy with his work.

Any comments welcome, thanks cp for those already given, although still feeling a little nervous being quite new to all this posting...

Thanks

http://www.flickr.com/photos/5680823...7629201157067/

Click to expand...

bramble your link isn't working for me.


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## riding_high (7 February 2012)

he had been on and off lame for a long time so the vet suggested rolled toe in front to 'help' him with his movement. it didn't. in fact shortly after these pics were taken he was constantly lame and came in crippled every day, i changed vets and asked a barefoot trimmer to remove the shoes immediately. 

when i saw the shoes after she removed them i could have cried and saw why my horse was struggling with even standing. he's been barefoot now for about 2yrs and although is footy in places he hasn't actually been lame. i think the shoes were causing him more harm than good.


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## ThePony (7 February 2012)

riding_high said:



			he had been on and off lame for a long time so the vet suggested rolled toe in front to 'help' him with his movement. it didn't. in fact shortly after these pics were taken he was constantly lame and came in crippled every day, i changed vets and asked a barefoot trimmer to remove the shoes immediately. 

when i saw the shoes after she removed them i could have cried and saw why my horse was struggling with even standing. he's been barefoot now for about 2yrs and although is footy in places he hasn't actually been lame. i think the shoes were causing him more harm than good.
		
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Oh dear, must have been mega stressful.

I've never seen shoes like that, but can understand that with the rolled front of the shoe how it would help the foot roll, but because the shoe is shaped in that way it seems to extend beyond the front of the hoof and so would delay breakover?  Is that ok? A case of pick the aspect that seems to be causing most issue for the horse and fix that? Am confused, is there a farrier reading atm who could explain please, or anyone else who knows?


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## ester (7 February 2012)

I think they are suppose to ease break over when you don't want to bring the toe back further http://www.farrierart.com/rocker_toe_shoe.html


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## ThePony (7 February 2012)

ester said:



			I think they are suppose to ease break over when you don't want to bring the toe back further http://www.farrierart.com/rocker_toe_shoe.html

Click to expand...

thank you!


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## Bramble74 (7 February 2012)

ester said:



			bramble your link isn't working for me.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks Ester, trying again...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/56808230@N08/sets/72157629201157067/


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## riding_high (7 February 2012)

i know very little about feet and like i said it was a few years ago so can't remember what i was told about it.

he had rolled toes with the previous farrier and looking at the difference in how the toes were rolled was quite big. last farrier made it so the shoes were rounded and 'smooth', the farrier who did the shoes in the pic made them so they were more dimpled as in just hit the fronts a few times to make them appear rolled. also the rolled part wasn't central and there were nails going through the rolled part. i never noticed until the trimmer removed the shoes and i had them in my hand.


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## Rowreach (7 February 2012)

A Guilding said:



			The same foot 9 months on and not without a few probs on the way.






Click to expand...

For the first time ever, OH (farrier) has shown an interest in a HHO thread    AG he is more than impressed with your photos, especially the way this "crack" was dealt with.  Nice work


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## Suechoccy (7 February 2012)

Nobody's looked at my sandcrack photos before and during rehab :-(

(my post detailing it is on page 26). 

http://s1149.photobucket.com/albums/o597/suechoccy/


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## Jesstickle (7 February 2012)

Suechoccy said:



			Nobody's looked at my sandcrack photos before and during rehab :-(

(my post detailing it is on page 26). 

http://s1149.photobucket.com/albums/o597/suechoccy/

Click to expand...

I did look but I know nothing about shoes so I just looked went  and carried on reading. But I promise I noticed your post


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## Suechoccy (7 February 2012)

thanks!


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## cptrayes (7 February 2012)

Bramble74 said:



			Thanks Ester, trying again...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/56808230@N08/sets/72157629201157067/

Click to expand...

I encouraged Bramble to post these because after all teh  foot problems we have seen and all the set back toes, these look to me like a bog-standard, well fitted shoeing job on a perfectly normal horse


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## rhino (7 February 2012)

cptrayes said:



			19 and a grey still with black points??? He/she must look stunning

Click to expand...

I think you'll find he is an 'uncommon dun roan' and not grey, and at a guess his name is Buzz    Oh well, she's gone now anyway (again)


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## cptrayes (7 February 2012)

Suechoccy said:



			Nobody's looked at my sandcrack photos before and during rehab :-(

(my post detailing it is on page 26). 

http://s1149.photobucket.com/albums/o597/suechoccy/

Click to expand...

These pics and your story are the sort of reason that I wanted to start this post. From your post, you trusted a farrier who let your horse down. With what you know now, you would be able to stop the problem before it got serious, and by sharing it with us other people will  now know that whatever their farrier might say it is not normal for a horse with good feet on arrival to develop sand cracks like this. It isn't always the farrier's fault, it will often be the diet and sometimes the conditions (wet/dry/wet/dry is not helpful!) but it wants challenging and sorting out before it risks the horse's soundness. Well done Suechoccy for carrying on questionning until you got the right answer.

Don't panic everyone with horses with sandcracks, they normally aren't as serious as that one turned out to be.


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## cptrayes (7 February 2012)

Spyda said:



			The only reason my mare is shod this way is because she's inclined to pull her front shoes off. That's the only reason. She has bilateral bench knees infront,
		
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Spyda would I be correct in translating "bench knees" for people who don't know as "the bottom half of her legs below the knee are set further to the outside than the top half of her legs".

??


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## cptrayes (7 February 2012)

riding_high said:



			ok hopefully this will work.
these are pics of my horses feet taken a couple of years ago. feel free to say what you think. he had to have rolled toes on the front (vets advice).











Click to expand...



The problem with this rocker shoe, to me, is that it is so extreme that I would have thought that to cut the toe "up" that much from the floor you then had the shoe bearing on very sensitive bits of the foot. I've seen rocker shoes before but never with such a severe upwards bend. I'm not surprised your boy did not do well in them.   I know that if I was daft enough to rasp a curve that big into any of my horse's feet, I would be reaching live white line, at the very least showing pink colouring indicating that I was too close to a blood supply, and quite likely actually drawing blood 

I guess the message is to listen to the horse. Your told you he was uncomfortable and you did something about it (gave up shoes). For those who don't feel they can give up shoes, then a change of farrier would be a must under those conditions unless he could make the horse more comfortable.


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## cptrayes (7 February 2012)

rhino said:



			I think you'll find he is an 'uncommon dun roan' and not grey, and at a guess his name is Buzz    Oh well, she's gone now anyway (again) 

Click to expand...

Ah, a bit like my "mouse dun" unusual colour Shetland then???


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## rhino (7 February 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Ah, a bit like my "mouse dun" unusual colour Shetland then???
		
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Shetlands come in all colours of the rainbow to be fair  Haven't you seen the film?

[YOUTUBE]sXoYK4b_q24[/YOUTUBE]

Oops, sorry about the hijack, just thought a few posters would recognise Buzz.


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## ThePony (7 February 2012)

moorman said:



			I dont know if this will help, but as a farrier who for the last 28 years has only done referral cases I have come to the conclusion that there are some facts about shoeing a horses that seem not to be disputed, even when I present a lecture to a room full of farriers.
1) Any crack from the nail down is the fault of the shoe (I am happy to go into more detail if needed)
2) Expansion and contraction of the foot is affected by shoeing and can be altered depending on shoeing method
3) A farrier will shoe in a particular way and it will often favour some types of horses over others
4) The advance in quality over the last 15/20 years of the readymade shoe been responsible for better shoeing
5) The cases of Corns in horses feet has dropped considerably since the teaching of hunter heels has virtually stopped
6) The cases of pre-navicular syndrome have significantly diminished since the teaching of more supportive shoeing
4) Pride kills more horses than lack of knowledge
The amount of time I have been asked to assess a farrier work must be in the hundreds, I will never pass judgement on another persons work.
My take has always been:  the problem starts now, the treatment starts now, 
Fig 3b on this page will show you a type of shoeing that I found to be as balanced and supportive as I could get it.
It also seemed to be good for horses that were going into transition before becoming barefoot, as the foot was able to expand and contracted as much as was possible.
		
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really informative, thanks!
Just wondering though, what are 'hunter heels'?


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## ThePony (7 February 2012)

moorman said:



			It was thought that the slant of the heel should be continued on to the heel of the shoe,
Thus lessening the surface area of support.
There are 2 shoeing disciplines I know of that still believe this to be the correct way of shoeing,
I take a different view!
		
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Sorry to be utterly dim - so with hunter heels where the heel horn meets the shoe it is not flat but an angled (triangular-ish?) shape so that there is a narrower stip of horn at the heel meeting the shoe? Or something else entirely lol, don't suppose there is a pic of such a thing? Why would it have been done over leaving things flat and with a larger surface area? Are there any circumstances where it might suit a horse, whether as a long or short term technique?

It had never occured to me that there would be different schools of shoeing, what are UK farriers taught, is it mainly the one school? Are there large differences between the different schools? Might different UK farriers follow different schools to each other depending of when they were taught/what CPD they have done etc?


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## ester (7 February 2012)

apparently this shoe has sloped hunter heels 

imaged removed cos huge!

from here : http://www.farrierspages.com/different_types_of_horseshoe.htm

I have to say I do think my boy might have been better off if I hadn't mentioned him hunting.

try again


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## ThePony (7 February 2012)

ace, I get you now, thank you!!


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## ThePony (7 February 2012)

moorman said:



			Fig 12 on this page will show you the result of hunter shoeing,   http://www.rockfoot.com/why.html
The heels are unsupported so they prolapsed; on the underside the shoe will often be the right width but what we would call short.
It took me nearly a year to get this horse right; in fact you will see nearly all the faults that can be performed by a farrier are in this foot.
You ask about training: I would rather have a separate thread on the subject as it is something I feel so passionate about I could bore the whole H&H.
But I will say I dont think the present system is working as well as it could. And yet it is admired all over the world. That could be because it is a closed shop, as you have to be registered to be able to practice in this country. Meaning that there is quite a restriction on the number of farriers that can practise, subsequently some farriers find they are very busy no matter what standard they set.
*Once qualified there is no minimum standard of horse shoeing that has to be maintained*
Mainly because we still cant agree on one: 20 years ago the hunter heel was all the fashion, it was conceived (as far as I can ascertain) by an engineer, not a vet or farrier, the idea behind it was t it was harder for the shoe to be hooked off we now know different and most farriers have outlawed it.
		
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Ouch, goodness me, no wonder the poor horse wasn't sound! Seperate thread sounds a plan, sorry, don't want to go o/t, sounds super interesting though!


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## Wagtail (7 February 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Spyda would I be correct in translating "bench knees" for people who don't know as "the bottom half of her legs below the knee are set further to the outside than the top half of her legs".

??
		
Click to expand...

We have a horse on our yard with bench knees (offset cannon bones). How would you suggest she is shod? She has her shoes off at the moment because she is in foal. Not my decision BTW as one of my liveries. My farrier is always going on about her awful feet as one side of her fronts is more upright than the other.


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## Chestnut mare (7 February 2012)

http://i1132.photobucket.com/albums/m563/Sam181/ee2f5e3d.jpg there should be some feet pictures in the album! I hope they are ok as was taken on my phone.


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## Chestnut mare (7 February 2012)




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## cptrayes (7 February 2012)

Wagtail said:



			We have a horse on our yard with bench knees (offset cannon bones). How would you suggest she is shod? She has her shoes off at the moment because she is in foal. Not my decision BTW as one of my liveries. My farrier is always going on about her awful feet as one side of her fronts is more upright than the other.
		
Click to expand...

I hope AG or Moorman can answer you Wagtail. I would not shoe her at all. The horse I knew of my friends had the most severe overlapping unstable sand crack I have ever seen, was unsound in shoes, and those cracks went to tiny lines on a sound horse when she went barefoot. I can only assume that a real movement specialist like A G would shoe to replicate the balance that mare found for herself, but clearly it would take an expert.


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## cptrayes (7 February 2012)

Chestnut mare said:








Click to expand...

It may just be a trick of the light in the photo but it looks to me as if the right hand branch of this shoe covers neither to the end OR to the outside of your horse's heel and it is pressing onto the frog. The first is a common "mistake" , often done deliberately because it can help the horse stop pulling off shoes. But not to reach the outside edge is simply, to me, wrong with no reason I can imagine (Moorman/AG could it be deliberate?). I'd be asking my farrier some questions about that one.


Great posts Moorman, thanks, I was hoping you might join us.


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## tallyho! (7 February 2012)

how did I miss this thread??.... just off to read 29 pages worth... back soon....


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## Eaglestone (7 February 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I think considering his problems that your farrier is marvellous for having kept him going so long and not just giving up on him. Is there any chance of using plastic glue-on shoes? I know they cost a fortune, which you might not have, I just wonder if it's a possible option for him to avoid the concussion of nailing on steel ones.

Cushings can be such a heartbreaking disease to manage, I wish you well with him.
		
Click to expand...

Farrier has been a star and is so patient with Motor .  

Back in 2006 we tried glue on shoes, but it was not that successful and was really to allow me to walk him out, across the yard.  Farrier now says he will always have to wear his front shoes.

We decided that he could go without his hinds and quite happily has his Boa boots put on and off we go 

Cushings seems to be a much more common 'condition' to horse owners have to manage.  I think that when a pony is and has been and always be a 'once in a lifetime' horse, then you will do anything for them .... well that is my opinion ....


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## LucyPriory (7 February 2012)

Chestnut mare said:























Click to expand...

I wouldn't be happy with how this shoe is set either.  Nor the rasping out of the outer hoof wall at the toe.  Can't be sure because it is obsured but it looks like a bit of wall crumbling at 12 noon esp dark foot.

I suspect the feet are running forwards, that the  heel buttresses under the shoes are weak and that there is some contraction.

Appears to be some stress through the quarters too.

This style of shoeing is very common in some parts of Kent.


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## Bernster (7 February 2012)

What an active thread this has been.  Lots more posts since I checked in at lunchtime.  Just goes to show that, whilst the obvious point would be that people should speak to their farriers for info etc on their horses, we still have lots of questions that they aren't answering !!


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## cptrayes (7 February 2012)

Bernster said:



			What an active thread this has been.  Lots more posts since I checked in at lunchtime.  Just goes to show that, whilst the obvious point would be that people should speak to their farriers for info etc on their horses, we still have lots of questions that they aren't answering !!
		
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I think there is a psychological problem with talking to some farriers. It's a solitary profession where you are the boss and no-one tells you what to do. Because of that it will inevitably, subconsciously, attract a fair proportion of people who don't really want to communicate with other people and who certainly don't want to be told what to do. 

If you put those two things together, questionning by owners can, unfortunately, sometimes be interpreted as "trying to tell me what to do" and can be met with hostility. Sometimes it will be met with a poorly explained response simply because the farrier doesn't really like talking to people and doesn't communicate well verbally. Some farriers are brilliant communicators, of course , but maybe my description will ring bells with some of you


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## Eaglestone (7 February 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I think there is a psychological problem with talking to some farriers. It's a solitary profession where you are the boss and no-one tells you what to do. Because of that it will inevitably, subconsciously, attract a fair proportion of people who don't really want to communicate with other people and who certainly don't want to be told what to do. 

If you put those two things together, questionning by owners can, unfortunately, sometimes be interpreted as "trying to tell me what to do" and can be met with hostility. Sometimes it will be met with a poorly explained response simply because the farrier doesn't really like talking to people and doesn't communicate well verbally. Some farriers are brilliant communicators, of course , but maybe my description will ring bells with some of you 

Click to expand...

I agree with this statement 100% .... I did have major problems with mine, but we worked through it, thank god  .... but 21 years must be a good 'partnership' lol


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## kezimac (7 February 2012)

here goes - be as honest as possible - horse no longer looked after by this farrier!!
might be dark 
right fore





left fore





left fore







right fore
	
	
		
		
	


	





right fore!! previous shoeing












and under new farrier

right fore





left fore







but they dont look like that today!!!!!!


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## ester (7 February 2012)

eaglestone definitely know motor, he is ginger and part welsh for a start . 

pleased to hear he is still enjoying life and great to see his feet too


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## kezimac (7 February 2012)

and now..... same farrier trimming - 4 months later- but i took from stupid angles so not really great photos. 
right fore





left fore 






is on pure feeds, minerals. and no grass


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## Roody2 (7 February 2012)

Excellent post!!

I don't have pics at the moment but a question:

My horse has recently had wedges put on his hinds to assist with a bone spavin in the off hind hock, he's 15. I was expecting a wedge on the shoe - i.e. a solid graduated thickening of the shoes on the inside and outside wall making the heels higher. Instead what he has is a 1 inch long piece of metal welded on the heel ends of both hind shoes which effectively doubles the thickness of the shoe at this point. But that does then leave a section of the foot/shoe not in contact with the ground. (think human shoes: wedges vs stiletto's).
My question - is this a problem? He seems fine at the moment and is on his 3rd shoeing with them. I was wondering if there was any risk of damage to the walls where they are not in contact with the floor?


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## Frozen Hoof Boots (7 February 2012)

Been madly taking some pics today.... checkout my giddyup pins  
Comments welcome 

On all his feet the frog has contact with the ground which has made a huge difference to his balance and no longer slipping on the road.

Fronts






O/S Front






N/S Front






N/S Front Shoe Underside 






N/S Hind






Hind feet view






O/S Hind Side view






O/S Hind Front view (dodgy flash glare)






O/S Hind Front view






OS Hind Shoe underside view


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## trina1982 (7 February 2012)

GiddyUpGirl said:



			Been madly taking some pics today.... checkout my giddyup pins  
Comments welcome 

On all his feet the frog has contact with the ground which has made a huge difference to his balance and no longer slipping on the road.



O/S Hind Side view





Click to expand...

Is this a 'bullnose' hoof. What does your farrier say about the hinds? Waiting for responses from people more educated than me!

Love that the shoes are thin and the frog reaches the floor, thats interesting to see. I assume the shoes wear quicker than thicker shoes though, hence why most shoes are thicker?

Thanks for posting these
Trina x


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## riding_high (7 February 2012)

cptrayes said:



			The problem with this rocker shoe, to me, is that it is so extreme that I would have thought that to cut the toe "up" that much from the floor you then had the shoe bearing on very sensitive bits of the foot. I've seen rocker shoes before but never with such a severe upwards bend. I'm not surprised your boy did not do well in them.   I know that if I was daft enough to rasp a curve that big into any of my horse's feet, I would be reaching live white line, at the very least showing pink colouring indicating that I was too close to a blood supply, and quite likely actually drawing blood 

I guess the message is to listen to the horse. Your told you he was uncomfortable and you did something about it (gave up shoes). For those who don't feel they can give up shoes, then a change of farrier would be a must under those conditions unless he could make the horse more comfortable.
		
Click to expand...


thankyou for your reply, he was struggling to even stand correct with these shoes on, within an hour of the shoes coming off i saw a big difference in his movement. i know some people will probably dismiss that statement but it really was that noticeable.

i will try and find the pics of the shoes that were removed and also see if i have any pics on the computer of his feet now. the back person said that he now stands with a leg in each corner and he looks a much better 'shape', before he was very hunched up and compensated with his legs.


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## trina1982 (7 February 2012)

moorman said:



			I make a point of never commenting on another farriers work.
I will however say that thin shoes do* not* wear out quicker than thick ones; in fact it is usually the other way around.
Go and look at the heels of your old wellies, now look at your slippers, the reason is, the least conflict in action causes the least wear.
There are many pictures of feet that I have seen on this thread that genuinely upset me, and make me realise I was right to loose faith in my profession.
As caring owners some of you deserve better than you are getting.
I do hate having to keep apologising for my profession  
As for any general comment I have I refer to my answer 273
		
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Thanks for that Moorman. Just one question - if thin shoes don't wear as quickly as thick, and they allow the frog to reach the ground easier, then why aren't they used more often? Isn't it a no brainer? Or am i missing something?

Trina x


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## Meowy Catkin (7 February 2012)

Bernster said:



			What an active thread this has been.  Lots more posts since I checked in at lunchtime.  Just goes to show that, *whilst the obvious point would be that people should speak to their farriers for info etc on their horses,* we still have lots of questions that they aren't answering !!
		
Click to expand...

I did speak to my now sacked Farrier RE my concerns with my mare's hooves, he made me feel like an idiot for asking. 

My new Farrier is happy and indeed enthusiastic about educating me.

Because of what happened to my mare I am now much more willing to stand by my concerns and less likely to be brushed aside. It was a terrible way to learn this though.

I strongly belive that if you ask your Farrier a question and they are reluctant to answer it, fob you off with a short answer (that they are unwilling to expand on) or make you feel like an idiot for asking/questioning their work - then there is a problem.


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## Frozen Hoof Boots (7 February 2012)

trina1982 said:



			Is this a 'bullnose' hoof. What does your farrier say about the hinds? Waiting for responses from people more educated than me!

Love that the shoes are thin and the frog reaches the floor, thats interesting to see. I assume the shoes wear quicker than thicker shoes though, hence why most shoes are thicker?

Thanks for posting these
Trina x
		
Click to expand...

ooh now I'm even more a bit worried as both hinds are like it, see






What does bullnose mean and how does it get corrected?
Can bullnose be caused by rasping the toe too much as I'm seeing that he literally has no toe but the horn is smooth   anyone advise??
He definitely has a tendency to drag rather than lift his hind feet.  Better after massage manipulation but reading bullnose feet whilst amongst other things can cause toe dragging


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## trina1982 (7 February 2012)

GiddyUpGirl said:



			ooh now I'm even more a bit worried as both hinds are like it, see






What does bullnose mean and how does it get corrected?
Can bullnose be caused by rasping the toe too much as I'm seeing that he literally has no toe but the horn is smooth   anyone advise??
He definitely has a tendency to drag rather than lift his hind feet.  Better after massage manipulation but reading bullnose feet whilst amongst other things can cause toe dragging  

Click to expand...

I'd love to answer but i'm a bit vague on it's definition myself. I think there are true bullnoses and 'made' ones (ie the toes has been dumped or worn). There have been a few threads on here recently, so you could try searching? I think in a true bullnose the pedal bone has rotated upward (negative rotation?). Can be linked to suger sensitivity i believe.

#Disclaimer - i know jack about anything so please take all i say with a huge pinch of salt and wait for someone who knows something to come along! 

Trina x


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## A Guilding (7 February 2012)

ThePony said:



			Thank you for posting a before and after A Guilding. Why was the horse left for 6 months initally before you were able to trim him? Amazing that the massive crack had joined at the top of the foot even with the stresses that must have been going through it from the open crack and the hoof wall left so long. Brilliant pics!!

Ace thread, more pics please guys, I'm learing huge amounts!! Thank you cptrayes!!
		
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He was left for 6 months because he is a polo pony and the player left England for Aus in september and returned in march, we think the foot grew together because the heel section overlapped the toe quarter. I was a top pony so we were under pressure to keep it on the road for the season, hence it having a bar shoe and a stud hole fitted.


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## ester (7 February 2012)

bullnosing was explained to me by cptrayes, my guess is that yours are bullnosed but that they look worse because of the rasping to the toe, which is obvious by the change in colour of the horn. 

my boys hinds look like this, his fronts if you look back at the posts also have a slight curve to the front wall)







CP said they are often associated with horses with metabolic issues, EMS and alike and reverse rotated pedal bones (which my boy has in front) hopefully she can perhaps fill you in a bit more.


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## A Guilding (7 February 2012)

GiddyUpGirl said:



			ooh now I'm even more a bit worried as both hinds are like it, see






What does bullnose mean and how does it get corrected?
Can bullnose be caused by rasping the toe too much as I'm seeing that he literally has no toe but the horn is smooth   anyone advise??
He definitely has a tendency to drag rather than lift his hind feet.  Better after massage manipulation but reading bullnose feet whilst amongst other things can cause toe dragging  

Click to expand...

Looks like you do a lot of work in a sand school and its rubbed the toe off with his toe dragging, I doubt its the rasp. The bull nose can be an indicator of a flat pedal bone or tipped backwards pedal bone.


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## Tamba (7 February 2012)

This thread is brilliant..
I am totally hung up on horses feet, and my farrier, dispairs at me, as I am always questioning him and asking him how the horses feet are?, I think I drive him insane, but I think its crucial to care..and take the view that if you act disinterested then they dont feel interested either, if you know what I mean.However, I WILL HAVE to post pics of my big dressage horses feet, as when I got him, he was shod, but two front feet are different shapes, as one is quite boxy, failed vetting due to this, but I thought I was getting him for a good price, and he was a schoolmaster, which is as rare as hens teeth, up with me, so decided to go on and buy. Have not regretted, as I competed him the first time after only one month home..and he was ace. SInce then, though he has had bother with thrush, (my fields are very wet, and I decided to do the dreaded thing of removing his shoes, in hope to  try and help his feet..which seem to lead to real lameness issues.. He has gone from being very lame, to being slightly lame, on his club foot.. But I see a massive difference in the shape of this foot already, and Im convinced if I keep the shoes of it will improve more.

Problem is, that my farrier, who is salt of the earth, is struggling with the trimming, as the heels of his front feet are either growing at different rates, or he is wearing them down differently, so he effectively as two front feet are different heights, as much as a quarter of an inch roughly, (havent measured).
Any one who has encountered this, would love to hear??, what way they got over this??
tambaX


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## Ditchjumper2 (7 February 2012)

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/picture.php?albumid=151&pictureid=14894[/IMG]
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/picture.php?albumid=151&pictureid=14895[/IMG


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## Meowy Catkin (7 February 2012)

Ditchjumper2 said:













Click to expand...

Do the photos work now?


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## Ditchjumper2 (7 February 2012)

Thank you....not sure what I did wrong!


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## A Guilding (7 February 2012)

Here is a little horse who we got asked to look at, it had the clasic ski ramp wall from incorect position of the pedal bone, he had a sand crack at the toe and the quarter where the wall had exceeded its elastic capabilities and split, the frog had also sheared and it was 4 out of 10 lame.







we cleaned out the toe crack and drilled some holes in the wall.







The foot was so flexible we attached a steel plate with screws to immobilize it.







then filled it with a composite, we left a hole at the top to put Iodine behind the filler.







one year on and all looking good.


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## cptrayes (7 February 2012)

Tamba said:



			Problem is, that my farrier, who is salt of the earth, is struggling with the trimming, as the heels of his front feet are either growing at different rates, or he is wearing them down differently, so he effectively as two front feet are different heights, as much as a quarter of an inch roughly, (havent measured).
Any one who has encountered this, would love to hear??, what way they got over this??
tambaX
		
Click to expand...

Yes, I have seen it on my friends horse so we got a tape measure out. She has one leg longer than the other, so she needs one foot longer than the other to compensate. I believe it's not uncommon. Your horse is sounder like this - listen to him


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## A Guilding (7 February 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Yes, I have seen it on my friends horse so we got a tape measure out. She has one leg longer than the other, so she needs one foot longer than the other to compensate. I believe it's not uncommon. Your horse is sounder like this - listen to him 

Click to expand...

Absolutely 100% correct, do not hack the foot down to match, club feet are very difficult to maintain shod or un shod.


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## cptrayes (7 February 2012)

moorman said:



			There are in my experience 2 main types of bull-nose or&#8217; dome&#8217; wall as I call it.
1) If the &#8216;dome&#8217;  is in line with the nails then this will be caused by the farrier having to roll the rasp over when finishing off, otherwise they will rasp through the nail head thus loosing the clench, theses domes will often be accompanied by small cracks going from the nail down. This is solved by dressing the wall before the shoe is fitted, thus creating a straight line from the top to bottom of the hoof.
2) The dome is caused by a conflict in the horn production, concussion is sent up the horn tubular but is unable to stimulate the growth due to a deviation in the wall secreting papillae, in other words the horn is being made to bend, this in turn will create a weakening in the laminae and so the position of P3 can be compromised.
There are other factors that will make the wall wear in this fashion and sand schools are one of them.
Please not that when this type of hoof is allowed to go barefoot, even if for a while the fault will usually go.
		
Click to expand...

My one I bought in early January took over six  months to lose his bullnoses but they have gone completely now. I'm certain that he was late broken because of laminitis issues. There was no evidence of this except bullnose hind feet, but I was proved right in the spring when the grass began to make him very sensitive on stones until I got him onto yeast and a prebiotic.  I've seen bull noses in other horses who don't manage grass well and they went when the diet was got under complete control. I think that fits with the barefoot thing, because horses on an incorrect diet (for them) don't do barefoot well, so the correction for both issues is the same thing in that case, a reduced sugar diet.


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## Ditchjumper2 (7 February 2012)

Faracat said:



			Do the photos work now?
		
Click to expand...

Despite your expertise in showing my pics they get no comment.....probably for the best lol!!


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## cptrayes (7 February 2012)

Faracat said:



			Do the photos work now?
		
Click to expand...

Ditchjumper2, the trouble is that the photos are at angles where it's actually impossible to see the really meaningful stuff - you're going to have to grovel in the dirt and get the camera down at foot level I'm afraid . Head on and exactly side on and directly down on the sole from on top. 

Has your horse got a spot of white line disease/seedy toe on the foot there?  Has your farrier discussed it with you?


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## cptrayes (7 February 2012)

A Guilding said:








Click to expand...

A G I don't understand this hoof, can you explain it to me? To a barefooter like me it looks just like a foot that was not doing well in shoes that has either had the shoe removed c.2 months before or a drastic change of shoeing c.4 months before, hence the more upright growth at the top. I though, in theory, that the top half indicates the proper angle of the pedal bone and suggests that there is good attachment with the laminae.

What I don't understand is how this foot got like this if it did not have a big change in its shoeing 2 months ago, if barefoot, or 4 months ago if still shod. 

I'd love to know if you can help?


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## A Guilding (7 February 2012)

In truth i dont know how this happened I guessed way to long between shoeing intervals and it looked to me like it had foundered. (Laminitic) but only in the one hoof, it was so unstable I had it in a heart bar for a while, but it mended and hasnt take a lame step since.


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## Tamba (7 February 2012)

fascinating... thanks, going to take some pics tomorrow, of him 
and my other 17.3hh dutch, who is shod. Currently in talks at min with farrier, about putting gel pads on him, as Dick vets noticed he was getting solar pain, when they did his scieotograpthy sp?, scan.
He is bit low on heel, and has quite flat footed thoroughbredy feet. Also been discussing eggbars?, Hes quite a sensitive soul, and struggles without shoes, even when he loses one, or is being shod..Anyone else used gel pads for this reason? opinions gratefully recieved
tambaX


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## Tamba (7 February 2012)

Quick question to anyone who wishes to answer??, or has any idea
Do, I let farrier take some of the toe of the non boxy foot, and leave the boxy foot, or do I encourage him to take off some heel of the boxy foot?, poor farrier doesnt seem sure, but he has told me he is worried about taking too much heel off? (mega confused)


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## A Guilding (7 February 2012)

Tamba said:



			Quick question to anyone who wishes to answer??, or has any idea
Do, I let farrier take some of the toe of the non boxy foot, and leave the boxy foot, or do I encourage him to take off some heel of the boxy foot?, poor farrier doesnt seem sure, but he has told me he is worried about taking too much heel off? (mega confused)
		
Click to expand...

Neither! is the easiest answer, and depends is the other, Asymmetric feet are very complex because every thing from the withers down is involved.


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## SophieLouBee (7 February 2012)

Here we are, I'll post two of the beasties feet.

Murphy, crumbly feet, issues with one hind (mild stringhalt type symptoms when not exercised regularly), 15yo, stiff on cold days, has never had a days lameness despite this!
































Ruby, wish I had photographed her feet when she came, they look like my nan had had a bash at putting them on. The one hind pictured, had bizzare growth flaring out to the outside, then the shoe nailed onto the foot. She had the hinds off and some serious seeing to, and her way of going has improved. She had a locking stifle when she arrived, which has gone, she's trotterxtb. She also is a serial shoe puller-offer, although she has kept them on full term this time.


























They had new shoes on yesterday.


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## SophieLouBee (7 February 2012)

SOOOORRRRYYYY they are so huge :\


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## Frozen Hoof Boots (7 February 2012)

A Guilding said:



			Looks like you do a lot of work in a sand school and its rubbed the toe off with his toe dragging, I doubt its the rasp. The bull nose can be an indicator of a flat pedal bone or tipped backwards pedal bone.
		
Click to expand...




moorman said:



			There are in my experience 2 main types of bull-nose or dome wall as I call it.
1) If the dome  is in line with the nails then this will be caused by the farrier having to roll the rasp over when finishing off, otherwise they will rasp through the nail head thus loosing the clench, theses domes will often be accompanied by small cracks going from the nail down. This is solved by dressing the wall before the shoe is fitted, thus creating a straight line from the top to bottom of the hoof.
2) The dome is caused by a conflict in the horn production, concussion is sent up the horn tubular but is unable to stimulate the growth due to a deviation in the wall secreting papillae, in other words the horn is being made to bend, this in turn will create a weakening in the laminae and so the position of P3 can be compromised.
There are other factors that will make the wall wear in this fashion and sand schools are one of them.
Please not that when this type of hoof is allowed to go barefoot, even if for a while the fault will usually go.
		
Click to expand...

I really appreciate your help and advice so far.
You are correct we do alot of schooling in the sandschool 4-5 days a week.  Would you say in your opinion that this wearing of his feet is sandschool work alone as he is a toe scrubber until you get him working properly from behind or is there something more sinister going on?
There are no obvious ridges in the hooves.  FYI, He was barefoot on his hindfeet but cracked his N/S hind that has taken over a year to grow fully out.  I used to go hacking quite often but less recently so only hack once a week.  He was shod purely for hacking/roadwork.


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## Tiffany (8 February 2012)

Interesting and informative thread


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## LucyPriory (8 February 2012)

Tamba said:



			as two front feet are different heights, as much as a quarter of an inch roughly, (havent measured).
		
Click to expand...

photos?


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## GinaGem (8 February 2012)

Would someone tell me what they think of my boys feet?  He had cracks down the fronts when i bought him, there are still ridges which you can just see in the pics.









































































Thanks


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## cptrayes (8 February 2012)

SophieLouBee said:








Click to expand...

If I am not mistaken, on the end of the left hand branch of this shoe, there is a flat area of heel plane which has not been covered by the shoe, in other words, part of her heel is completely unsupported and hanging off the end of the shoe.  Since these shoes have been on only one day, this may even get worse as her feet grow and I would not be happy with that shoe unless your farrier can explain to you why it has to be that way.


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## cptrayes (8 February 2012)

Sirocco said:









Thanks
		
Click to expand...

The hairline on this foot suggests that it may be taking too much pressure on the shoe back towards the heel. It should, in a perfect world, be a smooth line from front to back, but you can see a distinct rise towards the heel and at the bottom of that rise his foot is cracking away which would also be a warning for me. I would ask your farrier if he thinks there is an issue.  

By "bottom" there, I mean that you need to follow the line of the horn tubules down the foot. The crack looks as if it is some way in front of the rise, but start at the top, pick up a horn tubule line and follow it down and you will end up at the crack at the bottom.  Pressure transmits up the horn tubules, not only directly upwards from the ground.


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## GinaGem (8 February 2012)

Thank you. I thought the lines were odd on this foot when i took the pic but stupidly it's not something i've looked at closely before.  I will have a word.


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## cptrayes (8 February 2012)

Sirocco said:



			Thank you. I thought the lines were odd on this foot when i took the pic but stupidly it's not something i've looked at closely before.  I will have a word.
		
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There are quite a few horses who don't want ground pressure at the quarters (sides). Your may be one of them. If you take the shoes off those horses they will often break that bit of the foot off completely and stand only on their toe and heels/frog. Don't faint if your farrier shoes the horse next time with a gap between the top of the shoe and the bottom of his foot on the side there


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## stormybracken (8 February 2012)

Phew, just caught up, excellent Thread, thanks cp!


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## Garnet (8 February 2012)

Hi there,  here are some photos I took last September about two weeks after shoeing.  I am very happy with my farrier who has been shoeing my boy for the last fifteen years.  Syd will be 27 this year and has ringbone in both front feet (and various other suspected arthritic changes going on), so foot balance is critical to him.
NF





NH





NF





NH





NF





OF





NH





OH


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## Tamba (8 February 2012)

now for some really odd feet, poor boy!
Any views welcome?, Just had this fellow since August last year, he was shod, hes 17.2 short coupled Westfalian gelding.http://s256.photobucket.com/albums/hh162/horses01466/


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## Clava (8 February 2012)

Tamba said:



			now for some really odd feet, poor boy!
Any views welcome?, Just had this fellow since August last year, he was shod, hes 17.2 short coupled Westfalian gelding.http://s256.photobucket.com/albums/hh162/horses01466/

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I can't see any shoes?


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## Tamba (8 February 2012)

sorry, not shod at min, but want to know what people think of his heels(pretty please)


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## Tamba (8 February 2012)

In contrast, here is my other gelding, but he is flat footed, and shod,
Does his heel looked slightly collapsed, to anyone??, just looking for any advice, as farrier doesnt think he looks too bad


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## Tamba (8 February 2012)

He is slightly pigeon toed, here, you can see,
Not great photos though, but it was so windy in the yard, they wouldnt co operate with my, so had to take these in the field.


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## Tamba (8 February 2012)




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## CatStew (8 February 2012)

This thread is really interesting, thank you!

I'll try and take some pics of my horses' feet over the weekend and post them on here.  I personally think that our farrier is good, but I don't know a huge amount about feet and shoeing, so it will be interesting to see what others think!


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## Tamba (8 February 2012)




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## KSR (8 February 2012)

I dare not post, I'm really enjoying this thread.. I have one horse out of 8 (two recently deceased) with shoes.. His is a troubled story.. He's always been flat and shod and was later found to have been shod before he was 2 which I am led to believe can lead to dropping of the soles? I bought him at 4..

Found an exceptional farrier at 6 who indicated he had had Lami in the past and put him in natural balance shoes and brought his feet back to a more normal shape and functionality.. Front toes came back a couple inches and backs one or so.. They'd also been rather flared.. These changes were over a couple of years..

He moved out of the area, my YO moved to France and I spent the following 3 years struggling with farriers who put him in bar shoes then not, then trying to cripple him by taking his backs off and putting normals on front, then more bar shoes, then not.. All the while his feet were gradually spreading and his toes lengthening again despite my protestations and queries as I knew what was best for him..

It all came to a head autumn 2010 when he went slightly lame for the first time hacking down a hill.. Farrier and vet said there was no problem but he was virtually crippled by the November.. I had X-rays done to find pedal rotation.. He had heartbars back on with plastic type stuff put in the middle.. His soles were very poor and soft and he was struggling a lot.. And i was not being entertained, nor my opinions.. The horse was obviously in a lot of pain and very resistant to the shoeing so much that i did seriously consider pts but wanted to try find my original farrier as his last chance..

Thank God I found him.. April 2011 til now he has been commuting from Brighton to try to help.. Horse virtually sound from the first shoeing.. He was back in natural balance, shoes back on the back and away we go.. Since the last shoeing he is in steward clogs on front following the development of a crack at the coronary band on his better front foot.. He is a bit tender but I imagine it's due to having his whole sole in contact with a flat surface for the first time since a baby? He has also been able to comfortably weight bear on each front whilst the shoe is being changed.. 

His wall is improving slowly and his soles and frogs are much firmer and better quality.. He has gone back down two shoe sizes and is marvellous currently.. The main problem at the moment is that this is last years seriously compromised, weak, rubbish wall tissue.. I am having more X-rays done this week or next, when the vets get back to me with an appointment, to check on what's happening inside.. P3 has been stable since November 2010.. I get X-rays done every 6 months to be sure..

Unfortunately my iPhone spacked out when being updated so I have to try to find sole pics etc but I have the X-rays and a pic of the crack from the day before his last but one shoeing was due.. I was sending stressy photos to my farrier whilst he was at the suppliers to make sure he had everything he needed..

I'm sure I have left loads out.. This horse is my baby, we are taking it day by day, he's lucky but I'm not sure he's not on borrowed time.. Cross fingers he will continue to improve..


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## Garnet (8 February 2012)

KSR, that is terrifying P3 rotation isn't it?  You must have been worried sick.  Thank goodness you managed to find your original farrier again.  How is your farrier treating the crack? I'm interested because I've never seen one at the top of the hoof before.


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## Garnet (8 February 2012)

Tamba,
I am interested in your shod horse, who seems to have a very deep cleft in the frog which appears to extend back between the bulbs of the heel - is that what is known as sheared heels?  Does he ever get thrush or similar infections in there?  How does it compare with the other feet?
I am asking because my horse once had a horrible injury from a bramble which sliced up into the cleft of his frog between the bulbs of his heels, so I am always anxious that the area may open up again.  My foot photos are on the previous page - it was his off hind and the scar can barely be seen now, although it makes the join between the frog and the bulbs of the heels a bit rough.


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## KSR (8 February 2012)

Steward clogs at the last shoeing.. The crack hasn't changed any so it must be working for now.. Farrier is due any day so I will be able to post more after he has been..

http://www.hopeforsoundness.com/ishop/products/EDSS-Steward-Clog.html

http://www.hopeforsoundness.com/edss/store/new/clogabstract.html


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## Tamba (8 February 2012)

KSR, that is terrifying, you must have felt very helpless, which is how Im feeling now, with my unshod warmblood, with odd feet.
Its so hard to know how to put things right, when you take advise from your farrier, you are putting your trust in them, and how difficult it is, to ask another farrier for an opinion, must just dont want tio get involved.. its so tough, I hope theres no further damage done to his pedal bone , fingers crossed for you X


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## Tamba (8 February 2012)

(



Garnet said:



			Tamba,
I am interested in your shod horse, who seems to have a very deep cleft in the frog which appears to extend back between the bulbs of the heel - is that what is known as sheared heels?  Does he ever get thrush or similar infections in there?  How does it compare with the other feet?

Hi, I was just taking a look again at your feet pics, yes, they are similar to my lads.., I must admit, no, he doesnt get thrush, unlike my other dressage boy, who has been plagued,since about december, finally now, seem to have got to the bottom of the thrush by soaking his club foot everyday in warm water with salt and disinfectant (equmins, not ordinary), incase anyone is looking for a good product for it..
However, Orion, does suffer from sore heels,and the bulbs of his feet can be warm and sore after being ridden. Which is why Im considering egg bars, just to give him some extra protection, perfect result would be to take his shoes of, but hes had 2 years of due to arthritis and lameness, that Im not willing to take the risk. Not sure if its called sheared heels???, maybe some lovely person might tell me , if it is>
		
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## KSR (8 February 2012)

Thank you.. As I said to Garnet in a pm, I love all my horses equally but this one is the centre of my world.. Took him a walk inhand after a year in and this video was the result - ended up walking like I was defying gravity with my back in his shoulder back to my yard.. Please excuse the smack, it's usually only for a kick I do that :/

As long as he is this comfortable on his feet, unbuted too, I have hope.. When he isn't feeling good and the light is his eyes fades I have no decision to make.. As my vet says he should be dead going off the X-rays, but in his case she said we will treat the horse and not the X-rays   he is 16.2 purebred Cleveland bay, never lame til this

http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt132/Embalmer01/d74e2223.mp4


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## Tamba (8 February 2012)

certainly looks perky on his feet in the video, bless himX Its hard, what age is he?, Orion is 16 in May, which is not that old to have arthritis, but there you go !


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## KSR (8 February 2012)

He's only 11, 12 in May.. It's bad no matter what the age :/ my problem is knowing how stoic horses are, how much do they hide from us regarding discomfort etc..


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## floradora09 (8 February 2012)

cptrayes said:



			That's it! Barefoot feet usually grow a lot quicker than shod ones, it's the line from taking him barefoot. Now you can watch that line and you'll know that if it stays straight, it will be the foot balance that he wants. If it deviates again then you will know that either the shoeing is not balanced or that he is just a horse who will benefit from a  period out of shoes every year.
		
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Ah ha!  I'll keep an eye on it, although I do expect he's one which benefits from having a shoe break for a couple of months- farrier agrees. 

Also, is it moorman (?) who hates the use of studs? Am considering re-shoeing him behind again for this season, but only so we can use studs. Couldn't have done without them really last year, and the only thing stopping me from putting shoes straight back on behind is a) the fact that it's two less shoes for him to lose (!) and b) there is some debate as to the horse having more grip barefoot.

Sorry. Not turing into a barefoot thread- just asking for opinions of studs...


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## wellsat (8 February 2012)

cptrayes said:



			If you put those two things together, questionning by owners can, unfortunately, sometimes be interpreted as "trying to tell me what to do" and can be met with hostility. Sometimes it will be met with a poorly explained response simply because the farrier doesn't really like talking to people and doesn't communicate well verbally. Some farriers are brilliant communicators, of course , but maybe my description will ring bells with some of you 

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My current farrier is brilliant but I've always found it difficult to question farriers I've had in the past. I feel that I have no qualifications or experience other than owning my own horsses so who am I to question them?


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## cptrayes (8 February 2012)

Tamba said:



			sorry, not shod at min, but want to know what people think of his heels(pretty please)
		
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Can youput up a post asking for opinions from barefooters, this is a shoes thread and most of the barefooters are probably not reading it anyway, and we don't want to defocus the thread from  being about good shoeing. Ta!


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## cptrayes (8 February 2012)

Tamba said:



			In contrast, here is my other gelding, but he is flat footed, and shod,
Does his heel looked slightly collapsed, to anyone??, just looking for any advice, as farrier doesnt think he looks too bad
	
	
		
		
	


	




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Tamba we need this picture with the camera down by the heel looking forwards over the foot from heel to toe. It looks as if he has one heel much higher than the other, but from this angle it could just be a trick of the light.


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## Bernster (8 February 2012)

Originally Posted by cptrayes  

If you put those two things together, questionning by owners can, unfortunately, sometimes be interpreted as "trying to tell me what to do" and can be met with hostility. Sometimes it will be met with a poorly explained response simply because the farrier doesn't really like talking to people and doesn't communicate well verbally. Some farriers are brilliant communicators, of course , but maybe my description will ring bells with some of you  

This ^ ^

I know exactly what you mean  !  Silly really as I pay for a service, I really should ask more questions to check it's right but like many others on here, don't feel like I know enough to ask sensible ones.  But this thread has been so good at making me think about what I have taken for granted.  Am slightly daunted by the idea of posting pics in case they are considered terrible but am also fascinated by the comments so far.

I know there are only a couple of people posting 'substantive responses' but thank you as they are very interesting


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## cptrayes (8 February 2012)

KSR said:



			Thank you.. As I said to Garnet in a pm, I love all my horses equally but this one is the centre of my world.. Took him a walk inhand after a year in and this video was the result - ended up walking like I was defying gravity with my back in his shoulder back to my yard.. Please excuse the smack, it's usually only for a kick I do that :/

As long as he is this comfortable on his feet, unbuted too, I have hope.. When he isn't feeling good and the light is his eyes fades I have no decision to make.. As my vet says he should be dead going off the X-rays, but in his case she said we will treat the horse and not the X-rays   he is 16.2 purebred Cleveland bay, never lame til this

http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt132/Embalmer01/d74e2223.mp4

Click to expand...


KSR you've had a horrific time with this horse, haven't you. His feet look like they belong to a horse who is metabolically challenged in a big way (IR, EMS, EPSM, Cushings). I have heard of more and more Cleveland Bays with challenging foot quality and I'm beginning to wonder if there is something genetic going on in the breed, like they recently found in Connemaras.


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## cptrayes (8 February 2012)

floradora09 said:



			Ah ha!  I'll keep an eye on it, although I do expect he's one which benefits from having a shoe break for a couple of months- farrier agrees. 

Also, is it moorman (?) who hates the use of studs? Am considering re-shoeing him behind again for this season, but only so we can use studs. Couldn't have done without them really last year, and the only thing stopping me from putting shoes straight back on behind is a) the fact that it's two less shoes for him to lose (!) and b) there is some debate as to the horse having more grip barefoot.

Sorry. Not turing into a barefoot thread- just asking for opinions of studs... 

Click to expand...

As a barefooter I always accept that people have to shoe if they want studs. I don't think it's in doubt that studs allow you to put more sideways pressure on a horse's joints than you can do without them, and that studs in front cause more concussion on landing after a fence because the feet can't move under the forward pressure, so the joints must absorb it. 

But that said, most jumping horses compete happily with studs in year after year; they give the rider confidence that the horse can be sent on safely and that confidence from the rider inspires the horse, and some horses are not naturally balanced enough when they are young to jump confidently without them unless the rider is able to help them. 

I can't see studs ever being banned, so the challenge is to shoe as well as possible to use the studs as safely as possible. Hopefully this thread will have helped with that a bit


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## KSR (8 February 2012)

Yeah, his feet are challenging.. I've had him tested for everything and he's clear, it's purely feet.. He is the only one of my 4 CBs that has problems, his sisters feet were second to none.. He's always been restricted on grazing and feed, my only problem has been farriers.. I am suspicious as to why a pet 2yo would be shod though without some kind of underlying problem..

I agree though, I've heard of a few people with problems in recent months.. Perhaps its a new thing that's coming in with the breed.. I sincerely hope not though..


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## floradora09 (8 February 2012)

cptrayes said:



			As a barefooter I always accept that people have to shoe if they want studs. I don't think it's in doubt that studs allow you to put more sideways pressure on a horse's joints than you can do without them, and that studs in front cause more concussion on landing after a fence because the feet can't move under the forward pressure, so the joints must absorb it. 

But that said, most jumping horses compete happily with studs in year after year; they give the rider confidence that the horse can be sent on safely and that confidence from the rider inspires the horse, and some horses are not naturally balanced enough when they are young to jump confidently without them unless the rider is able to help them. 

I can't see studs ever being banned, so the challenge is to shoe as well as possible to use the studs as safely as possible. Hopefully this thread will have helped with that a bit 

Click to expand...

Thanks for that.  

I only ever use studs behind, and last year that seemed to do the job fine- so I'll only stud behind again this year. Usually I just use a small one on the outside, I'm always worried about him hurting himself if I use one on the inside too. 

There's also the whole debate about whether one or two studs is best.. as far as I know two is more equal pressure but increases concussion, whereas one increases twisting forces but isn't so jarring? 

There were several times last summer when I was SO glad I had studs, and I could ride properly knowing he wasn't about to slip over round a corner! It's just annoying having to shoe all the time just for the 2 or 3 times per month I'll need to use them


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## amandap (8 February 2012)

cptrayes said:



			KSR you've had a horrific time with this horse, haven't you. His feet look like they belong to a horse who is metabolically challenged in a big way (IR, EMS, EPSM, Cushings).
		
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Hope it's ok for me to comment. I agree here from the photos. So hard and frustrating trying to improve these horses sometimes ime. x


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## domane (8 February 2012)

Can't post other angles as I don't have him any more but this is a comparison before and after an 11-month period of barefoot rehabilitation on a 14yo ex-P2P TB who had a severe sugar intolerance.  He only needed on Cleantrax soaking (per hoof) to kill all the bugs, never abscessed and was very patient whilst I taped up his toosies in Soulmate pads and gaffer tape and walked him around for 20 minutes a day for 4 months!!













For the record... the top of that hoof looked like this when he arrived....


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## Tamba (8 February 2012)

thanks Cp , ok, doke, will do, sorry !< I am slightly foot obcessed, but there is only one remedial farrier in our whole area, and its an absolute heart break, my farrier does his best, but quite newly qualified, and you do wonder, naturally, if everything is correct, esp, terrified now of my new horses feet, and how on earth Im going to keep him sound!!!!, wish I had trained as a farrier myself !


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## KSR (8 February 2012)

I've been thinking about the same thing to be honest.. I've asked my SuperFarrier to point me in the right kind of direction.. I have 3 horses and 2 ponies all barefoot/shoeless and the one whose X-rays I've posted.. The two others I lost 2010/11 never had a nail in their feet either.. They will get what they need if they need it but I'm very very funny about shoes and farriers currently :/


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## pines of rome (8 February 2012)

Oh Moorman, I so wish you were located in my area and were looking after my horses feet!


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## JessandCharlie (8 February 2012)

moorman said:



			I keep finding myself coming on these threads and apologising for my profession, but in this case I think it is very necessary.
There is not a good farrier out there who would not look at some of the pictures that have been posted and feel ashamed that a qualified person could be happy with what they have done.
The saddest thing of all for me is that as owners you feel that it is necessary to go and find out whether you are getting a good job done or not.
As much as it is fine to have an owner that is interested, I never think it is essential. 
The job of an owner as far as I am concerned is to delegate and to enjoy!
As the owners foot manager I will call-in who ever I feel I need to keep the horse sound, balanced, and happy, all with the blessing of the head of the team, the vet
Some of the pictures I have seen make me wonder what vet ever looked down and thought that all was well.
I like to spend most of my time making sure things dont happen, not working on things that have, but when a referral comes to me with feet that have had so called professional care and are obviously in pain, I  think it is necessary to make comments in the right areas, it is not right to allow the person who did the harm to carry on without being made aware of the possible damaged they are causing. 
Due to there being no minimum standard once a farrier has qualified I know of no way to combat the problem other than to get to the students before they qualify and make them more responsible for their actions.
It is a well know fact in the farriery world that, shoeing has mainly improved due to the ever rising quality of the ready-made shoe.
I have no problem with this, but please FRC (farriers registration council) stop thinking of farriery as an old craft and started  to look at what is going on out in the  real world, it is time we expected all farriers to be professionals  and act accordingly.
Get the examination system up to date, get the right people teaching the students, and start to embrace all forms of foot management including barefoot.
End of rant and apology!
		
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You sound like a truly excellent farrier, I hope you can get the FRC to sort out their training system so we can trust farriers without having to check up on them  

I'd be happy to be trained up as a farrier by somebody this conscientious, same goes for AG, and I'm a bit of a barefoot hippy 

J&C


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## ester (8 February 2012)

moorman I think it also doesn't help that afaik when complaints are put into the FRC about poor standards of work nothing is done (although my only knowledge of this is def through the grapevine). People should feel that when the standard of work is very poor they can do something about it other than just changing farrier in the hope that the next one would be better! I certainly think in my area that we are limited on good shoeing farriers. I liked my previous farrier a lot, unfortunately he decided he preferred Australia


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## A Guilding (8 February 2012)

For a long time there was a shortage of farriers and the pressure was on to get a lot of horses shod quickly. Lots of people can shoe quickly and a lot of people can shoe well, very few can shoe quickly and well. Market forces are changing and there are more hoof care professionals to choose from, Scotland still has some shortages, but in my area there are some farriers whose service has been below par, they arnt very bissy now. I am lucky that our area is served by some very good farriers who have collectively kept up the standard and as a result we have all had to maitain it to not get left behind. I have trained some excellent lads who have made me proud that there standards have been maintained after they left me and I speak to them all on a regular basis and discuss buiseness and shoeing problems. The clients benefit from that type of professionalism I beleive. The missing link is a structure for the client to be educated by informed and unbiased opinions. The one thing we can all agree is when something looks well shod it usually is.

25000 hits tells me that the clients are wanting a resource for education it has completly blown my mind that number has been achieved in three or four days.


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## JenHunt (8 February 2012)

firstly - I'm going to apologise for the quality of my photos. they were taken tonight in the dark on a mobile! and both horses would much rather I'd been feeding them! 
secondly - the boys were shod on Monday, and I think our farrier is excellent and has done a really good job on them as they're so different, and he manages (unlike previous farriers we've had) to shoe both to their needs rather than trying to shoe every horse the same.



moorman said:



			Fig 12 on this page will show you the result of hunter shoeing,   http://www.rockfoot.com/why.html

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^^ this is what Ron's feet were like when we got him. It took my farrier (who I think is excellent) several years to rectify, and to get the shoes to stay on for more than 4 weeks at a time. I wish I had photos to show you from then, but this is them now. He's got black feet in front, but the soles are part white part black (no idea why!). His off hind is wonky as he lands on the outside first, leading to the foot looking like he lives on the side of a hill.
Ron's NF





Ron's NF front view





NF underneath





OF wonky heel as a result of a very bad overreach






Ron's back feet





NH 








A Guilding said:



			club feet are very difficult to maintain shod or un shod.
		
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we've had a lot of people tell us a horse with a club foot shouldn't be ridden, nevermind jumped! but I think we've done a reasonable job with Tom. he's 18 this year, and apart from when he had sidebone developing he's been sound as anything. It's interesting to note that his club foot is also on the same side as a shorter leg, leading to the club foot needing to be "longer" than the other foot. You can also see that his feet are quite elongated front to back. I don't know if this is a good or bad thing, it's just how they are. 

Tom's NF





NF from underneath (apologies for the bedding!)





both fronts (sort of)








JessandCharlie said:



			You sound like a truly excellent farrier, I hope you can get the FRC to sort out their training system so we can trust farriers without having to check up on them 

Click to expand...

I quite agree, and thank you to AG, moorman and cptrayes for such an interesting thread!


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## Tamba (8 February 2012)

moorman said:



			I keep finding myself coming on these threads and apologising for my profession, but in this case I think it is very necessary.
There is not a good farrier out there who would not look at some of the pictures that have been posted and feel ashamed that a qualified person could be happy with what they have done.
The saddest thing of all for me is that as owners you feel that it is necessary to go and find out whether you are getting a good job done or not.
As much as it is fine to have an owner that is interested, I never think it is essential. 
The job of an owner as far as I am concerned is to delegate and to enjoy!
As the owners foot manager I will call-in who ever I feel I need to keep the horse sound, balanced, and happy, all with the blessing of the head of the team, the vet
Some of the pictures I have seen make me wonder what vet ever looked down and thought that all was well.
I like to spend most of my time making sure things dont happen, not working on things that have, but when a referral comes to me with feet that have had so called professional care and are obviously in pain, I  think it is necessary to make comments in the right areas, it is not right to allow the person who did the harm to carry on without being made aware of the possible damaged they are causing. 
Due to there being no minimum standard once a farrier has qualified I know of no way to combat the problem other than to get to the students before they qualify and make them more responsible for their actions.
It is a well know fact in the farriery world that, shoeing has mainly improved due to the ever rising quality of the ready-made shoe.
I have no problem with this, but please FRC (farriers registration council) stop thinking of farriery as an old craft and started  to look at what is going on out in the  real world, it is time we expected all farriers to be professionals  and act accordingly.
Get the examination system up to date, get the right people teaching the students, and start to embrace all forms of foot management including barefoot.
End of rant and apology!
		
Click to expand...

I would just about move house, to get a decent farrier, who REALLY knew and you could trust, i have watched the heels of my horses feet get lower and lower, but there is absolutely nothing you can do, I know how people feel, that have ended up with a devastating situation, through bad farriery, its really not fair and more than that its cruel to the poor animal, whos probably both walking around imbalanced, at worst in pain, and being worked like this.... what a terrible shame in this daya age, when medicine, techology, etc, have all moved up so much, yet this type of injury is going on by farriers.
I totally understand, if you , who can see bad workmanship feeling upset, as anyone not even qualified, feel the pain of some of these owners.(me included, who probably may have to sell, my horse, as I have no farrier, who has any idea how to deal with his box foot, yet he was happy and sound when I bought him... its crazy! sorry, I apologise, rant over!!!


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## trina1982 (8 February 2012)

A Guilding said:



			25000 hits tells me that the clients are wanting a resource for education it has completly blown my mind that number has been achieved in three or four days.
		
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Well, lets just hope the right people take note!
I have a feeling this thread is far from running it's course too


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## whisp&willow (9 February 2012)

Tamba said:



			I would just about move house, to get a decent farrier, who REALLY knew and you could trust, i have watched the heels of my horses feet get lower and lower, but there is absolutely nothing you can do, I know how people feel, that have ended up with a devastating situation, through bad farriery, its really not fair and more than that its cruel to the poor animal, whos probably both walking around imbalanced, at worst in pain, and being worked like this.... what a terrible shame in this daya age, when medicine, techology, etc, have all moved up so much, yet this type of injury is going on by farriers.
I totally understand, if you , who can see bad workmanship feeling upset, as anyone not even qualified, feel the pain of some of these owners.(me included, who probably may have to sell, my horse, as I have no farrier, who has any idea how to deal with his box foot, yet he was happy and sound when I bought him... its crazy! sorry, I apologise, rant over!!!
		
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i found it VERY hard to find and keep a good farrier while i lived in Aberdeen.
  any time i got one that i felt did a good job they were very punctual for the first few shoeings, then went AWOL!  the problem i feel is that many of the young lads who are newly qualified make a fast buck, (esp in areas where there are few farriers and lots of horses) and thats what they do it for-  not a passion for horses feet!  my farrier at home takes a long time to even choose his next lad-  they come and stay with him for a while and he'l only take them on if they realy have a passion for horses.


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## Clava (9 February 2012)

This thread would make the basis for such a useful and interesting book, a guide for horse owner's as to what to look for when a horse is shod.

Thankyou to all those that have contributed.


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## TigerTail (9 February 2012)

The saddest thing of all for me is that as owners you feel that it is necessary to go and find out whether you are getting a good job done or not.
As much as it is fine to have an owner that is interested, I never think it is essential. 
The job of an owner as far as I am concerned is to delegate and to enjoy!
		
Click to expand...

In a perfect world yes - however, as has been proven by this thread, it is not practical to place all your faith in a professional as A they are human and B some have massive gaps in their knowledge of their profession.

I learnt the hard way from a BF trimmer that to blindly trust the professional is a bad idea and if you are worried something is wrong, go off and educate yourself so you *know* you are getting the best possible care for your horse.


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## ThePony (9 February 2012)

Clava said:



			This thread would make the basis for such a useful and interesting book, a guide for horse owner's as to what to look for when a horse is shod.

Thankyou to all those that have contributed.

Click to expand...

Def is a very useful and interesting thread (even as a comitted barefooter lol!).


In terms of 'further reading' I have these two books and find them absolutly excellent: 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/No-Foot-Hor...=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1328788330&sr=1-1

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Feet-First-...=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1328788347&sr=1-1

The first is very shoes orientated and the second is directed towards those interested in barefoot - but I find them both together give an excellent base to hoof health in general, regardless of what you do/do not decide to attach to them.


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## Tamba (9 February 2012)

ThePony said:



			Def is a very useful and interesting thread (even as a comitted barefooter lol!).


In terms of 'further reading' I have these two books and find them absolutly excellent: 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/No-Foot-Hor...=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1328788330&sr=1-1

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Feet-First-...=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1328788347&sr=1-1

The first is very shoes orientated and the second is directed towards those interested in barefoot - but I find them both together give an excellent base to hoof health in general, regardless of what you do/do not decide to attach to them.
		
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Off to order, these, thanks very much for the recommendation, knowledge is power and all that !!!!!!!!


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## amandap (9 February 2012)

moorman said:



			I keep finding myself coming on these threads and apologising for my profession, but in this case I think it is very necessary.
There is not a good farrier out there who would not look at some of the pictures that have been posted and feel ashamed that a qualified person could be happy with what they have done.
		
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I don't think you should feel ashamed for other individuals work but can understand. You are sharing information and experience that many of us are very grateful for. 
Hopefully this well viewed thread will start some thinking and action in relevant circles. Always the optimist. 

I do disagree somewhat about owners being purely delegators though. Imo this role is fine for dealing with non living objects or processes but anyone becoming responsible for the care of any animal should take that role seriously and educate themselves to some extent so they can make informed choices about the professionals they use. Professionals are human and subject to human traits so there will always be those who are less than ideal, purely because of their individual nature, motivation and philosophy. Training and skill level is another aspect.


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## tallyho! (9 February 2012)

JenHunt said:



			firstly - I'm going to apologise for the quality of my photos. they were taken tonight in the dark on a mobile! and both horses would much rather I'd been feeding them! 
secondly - the boys were shod on Monday, and I think our farrier is excellent and has done a really good job on them as they're so different, and he manages (unlike previous farriers we've had) to shoe both to their needs rather than trying to shoe every horse the same.



^^ this is what Ron's feet were like when we got him. It took my farrier (who I think is excellent) several years to rectify, and to get the shoes to stay on for more than 4 weeks at a time. I wish I had photos to show you from then, but this is them now. He's got black feet in front, but the soles are part white part black (no idea why!). His off hind is wonky as he lands on the outside first, leading to the foot looking like he lives on the side of a hill.
Ron's NF





Ron's NF front view





NF underneath





OF wonky heel as a result of a very bad overreach






Ron's back feet





NH 








we've had a lot of people tell us a horse with a club foot shouldn't be ridden, nevermind jumped! but I think we've done a reasonable job with Tom. he's 18 this year, and apart from when he had sidebone developing he's been sound as anything. It's interesting to note that his club foot is also on the same side as a shorter leg, leading to the club foot needing to be "longer" than the other foot. You can also see that his feet are quite elongated front to back. I don't know if this is a good or bad thing, it's just how they are. 

Tom's NF





NF from underneath (apologies for the bedding!)





both fronts (sort of)








I quite agree, and thank you to AG, moorman and cptrayes for such an interesting thread!
		
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I'm just a horse owner with a hoof-obsession so hardly an expert but I would be quite happy with Ron's feet. Good frog and not a mile off the ground as mine was previously shod.

Tom's "club foot" is really interesting because my vet thought M had "club foot" too (reason for my obsession) and I did lots of research into it. I assume Tom had this from birth? M didn't as both legs were the same length but was short on that shoulder so we never knew what was causing the angle. Chicken & egg situation... I'm going to try and find a photo as show you how he was shod on the assumption of concussion lami (??) (when actually he had navicular ) and the result. Bear with....


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## Oberon (9 February 2012)

I think the reason for a club foot should be examined rather than just put it down to one leg shorter than the other.

My experience is that one STRIDE is shorter than the other.

This is often due to a body issue higher up.

I've seen a dreadful club foot that was 'corrected' until the horses developed navicular and thousands spent on treatment....when taking the shoes off and getting a body worker fixed it! Hoof is now normal!


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## A Guilding (9 February 2012)

Oberon said:



			My experience is that one STRIDE is shorter than the other
		
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Is it? I would be interested in your opinions as to how that happens?


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## Oberon (9 February 2012)

A Guilding said:



			Is it? I would be interested in your opinions as to how that happens?
		
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Muscle pain restricting the stride.


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## A Guilding (9 February 2012)

Oberon said:



			Muscle pain restricting the stride.
		
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For another thread and we will have that debate


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## Oberon (9 February 2012)

No thanks. I am entitled to my opinion, as are you.

I simply think seeing a club foot and immediately believing it will always be that way and there's nothing you can do about it is doing the horse a disservice.

The owner should at least spend £50 on a decent body worker first.


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## cptrayes (9 February 2012)

JenHunt said:









!
		
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Jen I know your farrier has been able to keep this horse sound for you, and that for him it may be correct, but these  heels look very  unbalanced to me - longer on the right hand side, or is it an optical illusion?


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## cptrayes (9 February 2012)

Oberon said:



			No thanks. I am entitled to my opinion, as are you.

I simply think seeing a club foot and immediately believing it will always be that way and there's nothing you can do about it is doing the horse a disservice.

The owner should at least spend £50 on a decent body worker first.
		
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I totally agree with this. In my friend's case her mare has one front leg shorter than the other, measured from the elbow joint to the ergot. But it is not always the reason for a club foot. Since the horse's front legs are not joined to its skeleton, only held on by soft tissue, there could be a multitude of body issues that could cause a leg to act "as if" it is shorter than the other and produce a club foot.


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## ester (9 February 2012)

when my back gets stiff my left leg is/appears shorter, presumably if a horses shoulder was stiff this would result in that leg poss being held slightly higher resulting in a 'shorter' leg?


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## JenHunt (9 February 2012)

tallyho! said:



			I'm just a horse owner with a hoof-obsession so hardly an expert but I would be quite happy with Ron's feet. Good frog and not a mile off the ground as mine was previously shod.

Tom's "club foot" is really interesting because my vet thought M had "club foot" too (reason for my obsession) and I did lots of research into it. I assume Tom had this from birth? M didn't as both legs were the same length but was short on that shoulder so we never knew what was causing the angle. Chicken & egg situation... I'm going to try and find a photo as show you how he was shod on the assumption of concussion lami (??) (when actually he had navicular ) and the result. Bear with.... 

Click to expand...

Tom's foot has certainly been like that all the time we've had him (since he was rising 5). I believe that he's been like that since birth.



cptrayes said:



			Jen I know your farrier has been able to keep this horse sound for you, and that for him it may be correct, but these  heels look very  unbalanced to me - longer on the right hand side, or is it an optical illusion?
		
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His heels are uneven - he lands on the outside of that foot first and sort of twists it. when we first had him he'd been shod to make them even (as one would suspect he should have been). but he kept twisting the shoe round and then being not quite right behind. the farrier suggested we left his hinds off for some time (which only worked as he was off work due to a mega overreach - scar still visible, just, on his heel). when the farrier came to put shoes on the hinds it was obvious that the heels 'needed' to be uneven to keep his movement true. so yes, they are unbalanced but for him it's what's needed. well spotted!


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## viola (9 February 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I totally agree with this. In my friend's case her mare has one front leg shorter than the other, measured from the elbow joint to the ergot. But it is not always the reason for a club foot. Since the horse's front legs are not joined to its skeleton, only held on by soft tissue, there could be a multitude of body issues that could cause a leg to act "as if" it is shorter than the other and produce a club foot.
		
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That's interesting. I've ridden a PRE with a club foot (although not severe) and all my schooling work with him was focused on working him evenly through both shoulders. Body Worker also found him sore/tight in the same shoulder for several months. Once I figured out how to help him use his tight shoulder better, Body Worker found him pain free in it. About the same time, his foot started re-modelling into much better, normal shape. What's interesting though, his other foot was perhaps a bit flat and longer in toe but about the same time as he became even and loser in his shoulders his flatter foot started to change too, taking more upright shape.
His attitude to work (reaction off the leg, relaxation) improved too. He was barefoot when these changes were taking place.

Edited to say: I wish I thought about measuring his legs :-D!


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## JenHunt (9 February 2012)

my understanding of a club foot is that it can be caused by an excessive tightness in the tendons/ligaments/muscles in the limb during development in utero, causing the structure of the hoof to become contracted and 'boxy'.
I also understand that it can be caused by abnormal development (due to trauma often) as a foal and during growth spurts.

but - that's only a very basic understanding. the former ties with how Tom's legs are. the one with the club foot is shorter, but all the tendons stand out a mile, and you can feel the ones around his fetlock really clearly, but you can't on the other leg so much. almost like the whole leg has been squashed and gone bulgy. (can't describe it better, sorry!). he's also wonky all over... he's missing a tooth on the same side and twists his head to make the bit feel even in his mouth (doesn't twist in a bitless, but then you can't stop him!), he bucks in canter if restricted on the left rein, but not the right, and he walks like a banana if left to his own devices. The vet, physio in chiro cannot find any signs of pain, tightness or discomfort in him, it's just the way he is!


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## Clava (9 February 2012)

moorman said:



			My point is I dont think I should have to study plumbing in order to know if I have had my boiler fitted correctly, I have at some point to rely on the professional who is charging for the job.
Now I fully agree that there is always the question of how do we know if we have a good vet/farrier etc, (as this thread has proved) and I can only say that I will never stop working towards trying to get a minimum standard within my profession so that an owner may chose a farrier for other reasons than competence. 
!
		
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... there is usually only one way to fit a boiler (a few ways to join pipes, but as long as they don't leak there is no issue), but there seems to be many ways of fitting a shoe and being able to spot issues early when something is going wrong with the way a farrier is shoeing is extremely important, but these things go unchecked because owners trust their professionals and do not have easily accessible reference material to check it or even question it. I think owners need to know what good shoeing looks like but in 40 years of ownership I personally have never been taught it (fortunately mine are barefoot now so nolonger an issue).


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## tallyho! (9 February 2012)

JenHunt said:



			Tom's foot has certainly been like that all the time we've had him (since he was rising 5). I believe that he's been like that since birth.
		
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See, I wish my pro's knew that or I don't think my boy would have gone through so much pain!! 

Here is my apparently "box/club foot horse" being treated just after "concussion lami" 4years ago...













I wince now how far the nails were driven up and how high those heels were - you can't see the contraction as I was uneducated and only had an inkling that something was not "right". The angle trying to grow down is very telling though don't you think? You can clearly see this is not a congenital case now. I think your farrier is doing a good job with Tom.


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## tallyho! (9 February 2012)

moorman said:



			I could not agree more with all you have said.
But if this thread has proved anything to me it is that if all owners were to go and study all equine disciplines there would still be a great variation in opinions.
The finest owner I ever worked for was an eminent London lawyer, who decided to take up riding, he got a vet, myself, and a saddler in his yard, asked us to look at a horse he was thinking of buying and to advise him on where he went from here. The professionals got together and realised we were going to be responsible for the wellbeing of this animal, a job we all took, and still take very seriously. 
We all keep in touch with each other and will voice any concerns we have.
The vet remarked just after Xmas that in the 6 years we have looked after this client horses he has spent less than all his other equine clients.
What I am trying to say is that if the owner is skilled in delegation it does relieve the need for knowledge, and can lead to a successful outcome.
My point is I dont think I should have to study plumbing in order to know if I have had my boiler fitted correctly, I have at some point to rely on the professional who is charging for the job.
Now I fully agree that there is always the question of how do we know if we have a good vet/farrier etc, (as this thread has proved) and I can only say that I will never stop working towards trying to get a minimum standard within my profession so that an owner may chose a farrier for other reasons than competence. 
Maybe we could start with a farrier having to shoe a horse all round in the way that he/her is going to do it for a living when they take there final exam, if this means using readymade shoes then bring them on. We are now in the year 2012 not 1860!!! 
Something about this thread really gets me going, sorry!
		
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Well yes, quite Moorman, because each experience is unique. As is each horse within the parameters it is programmed to survive of course...

However, despite having a trusty plumber, I quite like to know a bit about plumbing because you can get ripped off if you don't! LOL and that if translated into hooves - well I got ripped right off not knowing about hooves and almost killed my horse in the process - not really a like for like, right? 

No, owners should learn as much as poss, discuss differences and be open minded despite varying opinions. Why is that a bad thing? 

And why can't it be curriculum that a farrier learns how to keep a horse performing sound without shoes before learning how to keep one performing sound in shoes?


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## cptrayes (9 February 2012)

JenHunt said:



			His heels are uneven - he lands on the outside of that foot first and sort of twists it. when we first had him he'd been shod to make them even (as one would suspect he should have been). but he kept twisting the shoe round and then being not quite right behind. the farrier suggested we left his hinds off for some time (which only worked as he was off work due to a mega overreach - scar still visible, just, on his heel). when the farrier came to put shoes on the hinds it was obvious that the heels 'needed' to be uneven to keep his movement true. so yes, they are unbalanced but for him it's what's needed. well spotted!
		
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For me this is a mark of a truly great farrier. He has watched the horse, listened to the horse and not attempted to impose his own idea of symmetry on the horse.

The difficulty  is for the ordinary mortal to understand when this would be a bodge job by a bad farrier and when it is a great job by a skilled farrier. If your farrier shoes your horse with this kind of imbalance but cannot explain why, challenge him/her!


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## tallyho! (9 February 2012)

moorman said:



			I am not for one moment saying that owner knowledge is a bad thing, I just feel it is wrong if it has to be a necessity.
Not all owners want to learn the finer points of:  farriery, nutrition, saddlery, veterinary work, land management, even riding.
Some just want to own, I feel it is right that if they wish to they should not be let down by professionals who can&#8217;t maintain a minimum standard.
I would love all farrier students to understand about barefoot, and there is a lot of work being done to promote that.
What worries me is I get send students in there last year who want to spend some time working with me, and it worries me how many of them already have  opinions on things  they have not yet seen!
I long for the day when farrier students (like vets) will go to a college for 3 years before being placed with a master. This way the master will find out what is being taught, and the student will be able to explore more than just one method within his profession.
There are many systems of barefoot being taught now that surpass all teaching in the farriers colleges when it comes to biomechanics, nutrition and anatomy.
		
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I agree, but it's just not like that sadly is it. I aslso just wanted to "own" and have the pleasure of doing just that with the latest horse... instead I got a lesson in hooves  People can ring the changes though... it just needs the right amount of pressure to change.


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## quirky (9 February 2012)

Oberon - I have seen a foal on the ground, before he had even stood and he had a club foot. How can that be caused by stride or higher pain when he hadn't even walked?


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## A Guilding (9 February 2012)

quirky said:



			Oberon - I have seen a foal on the ground, before he had even stood and he had a club foot. How can that be caused by stride or higher pain when he hadn't even walked?
		
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This isnt the thread for this, There are 3 reasons for club feet, Hereditary, Congenital, or Acquired. Horses can have asymmetric feet that arnt club feet, It is a debatable point and the jury is out on whether they can have different lengths of stride, I think they can but not by much otherwise they would go in circles or split down the middle. The club foot follows different biomechanical rules to the asymmetric (slightly boxy foot) Oberon I wasnt getting at you quite the reverse.


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## cptrayes (10 February 2012)

A Guilding said:



			It is a debatable point and the jury is out on whether they can have different lengths of stride, I think they can but not by much otherwise they would go in circles or split down the middle.
		
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That jury can't know a lot about horses A G  

It would only be true that a horse cannot move in a straight line with a different stride length if the horse never had a moment of suspension when all four feet are off the floor and the body is moving forwards over the ground. And that that moment of suspension can, and is, used by the horse to make adjustments to keep itself straight.

Of course, it's also the case that in trot, the pace most often used to diagnose lameness, the diagonally opposite foot can compensate. As I'm sure you will have seen, horse who are lame very often show changes in the diagonally opposite foot, especially when the lameness is  on the back.

So it is perfectly possible for the horses body to move forwards in the air during the moment of suspension with both sides covering an equal distance but for the horse to place a foot down short.

Just in case you really never have seen a horse take a markedly different length stride with the hind feet, yet be perfectly straight and sound to ride a dressage competition (and win) I can point you to a dozen videos of the horse that I gave away because he has spavin. I guess the experts who have worked out that it isn't possible didn't get round to telling him yet ?


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## Sults (10 February 2012)

Would it be possible for someone to explain what (in an ideal world!) a farrier should do when shoeing a horse. Assuming the feet are fairly decent and they are not trying to correct anything! Just would like a basic outline pleeease?

What should they do to the frog & sole? Wall?
Where should the shoe be placed? 
how much rasping of the wall to finish off is actually required. 

And any pics of wonderful shod feet would be very grateful


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## paddy555 (10 February 2012)

moorman said:



			I am not for one moment saying that owner knowledge is a bad thing, I just feel it is wrong if it has to be a necessity.
Not all owners want to learn the finer points of:  farriery, nutrition, saddlery, veterinary work, land management, even riding.
Some just want to own, I feel it is right that if they wish to they should not be let down by professionals who cant maintain a minimum standard.
		
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in a perfect world perhaps but not in the real world. How do you know if you can trust a professional unless you have some idea of the subject? Besides it is interesting learning all this sort of stuff about horses and part of ownership and riding. Also it is extremely cost effective when you consider the amount of money wasted on various feeds, supplements etc etc etc.


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## Clava (10 February 2012)

paddy555 said:



			in a perfect world perhaps but not in the real world. How do you know if you can trust a professional unless you have some idea of the subject? Besides it is interesting learning all this sort of stuff about horses and part of ownership and riding. Also it is extremely cost effective when you consider the amount of money wasted on various feeds, supplements etc etc etc.
		
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Just as owners want and need to know what is good nutrition for their horses (you certainly can't trust the feed companies to just tell you), I think the same applies to shoeing, but there is a serious lack of information out there.


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## ThePony (10 February 2012)

paddy555 said:



			in a perfect world perhaps but not in the real world. How do you know if you can trust a professional unless you have some idea of the subject? Besides it is interesting learning all this sort of stuff about horses and part of ownership and riding. Also it is extremely cost effective when you consider the amount of money wasted on various feeds, supplements etc etc etc.
		
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I do agree with this in principle - you need to fit your idiot filter and have an idea if what is going on with your horse is right. But, the average horse owner would need to have an incredibly wide knowledge. Saddle fitting, bitting, feet, dentisty, worming, nutrition, vets, grassland management, stable maintenence, school surfaces, training etc. Add to that things you need to know in your everyday life and job, and quite frankly there aren't enough hours in the day and we just have to start somewhere - for alot of people, using a recommended farrier is that starting point. There has to be trust in the relationship. 

We all aim to build up our knowledge, but we all have to trust a professional at some point to do the right thing by our horse.  This thread alone shows what a wide range 'correct' shoeing fits into - the information needed in just this area of horse ownership is just mind boggling and beyond the reach of your average owner rider I think.


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## amandap (10 February 2012)

ThePony said:



			We all aim to build up our knowledge, but we all have to trust a professional at some point to do the right thing by our horse.  This thread alone shows what a wide range 'correct' shoeing fits into - the information needed in just this area of horse ownership is just mind boggling and beyond the reach of your average owner rider I think.
		
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I think this is true to some extent. Also thinking of moormans' client that got professionals together, this is the ideal but does have financial implications which makes it difficult for many of us. I do think a team approach is fab and should be encouraged. In this it's the owner/carer who is in the best position to observe and see response to interventions imo.
I still believe owners do need to assume responsibility when they take on care of any animal. It's easy to shove this off onto professionals and blame them when things go wrong. We must remember we appoint them and in the end the buck stops with us. Owners pushing for better quality care and questioning is one way to improve standards. Answers such as "Oh he's a tb or this is just horses" etc. should be challenged imo they are not a valid answers imo that are helpful to the owner or horse. 

I suppose getting an idea of pointers to problems is a start. For me repeated lameness/footyness, negative/resistive behavioural changes or patterns and regular body issues are big red flags that something is wrong fundamentally and should prompt questioning and extra specific learning along with professional consultation.
It seems to me that some horses seem to lurch from one crisis to another and these are dealt with individually rather than trying to step back and see the bigger picture.


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## quirky (10 February 2012)

A Guilding said:



			This isnt the thread for this, There are 3 reasons for club feet, Hereditary, Congenital, or Acquired. Horses can have asymmetric feet that arnt club feet, It is a debatable point and the jury is out on whether they can have different lengths of stride, I think they can but not by much otherwise they would go in circles or split down the middle. The club foot follows different biomechanical rules to the asymmetric (slightly boxy foot) Oberon I wasnt getting at you quite the reverse.
		
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Sorry, I shall consider myself suitably admonished .

_* Slopes off to find the more polite area of the forum *_


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## KatB (10 February 2012)

This is all very interesting, and for what it's worth, I have pretty much agreed with everything cptrayes has said so far 

There are plenty of farriers out there who unfortunately do shoe "to keep customers happy" as opposed to keeping the horse happy. This includes shoeing to keep shoes on (eg no heel support/fitting them to the edge of the foot at that time) and making the foot look pretty, but not taking into consideration the condition of the foot itself. 

I am very ware of how my horses feet look, from a "performance" point of view, and get on well with my farrier as he will discuss why he's doing things, will do what I would request he look at doing without me asking, and is basically a very good farrier. I have fallen out with an excellent farrier, as unfortunately he wouldn't stop sending his apprentice out to shoe, who repeatedly ignored my requests to give the horse mopre heel support, as the horse had previous pulled shoes!!


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## viola (10 February 2012)

ThePony said:



			This thread alone shows what a wide range 'correct' shoeing fits into - the information needed in just this area of horse ownership is just mind boggling and beyond the reach of your average owner rider I think.
		
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It might be right that to understand all ins and outs of all variations is way beyond an average owner-rider but most will have 1-2 horses and learning what's good for them might just be within their capabilities. 

I've just recommended this thread to a few of my riders doing BHS exams. I think it's a fantastic resource for all BHS students/future instructors. It is incredible how much you can change the horse's way of going and in turn the rider's way of sitting/riding when the feet are in good condition. It would be great to see the manuals going into much more detail.


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## cptrayes (10 February 2012)

Sults said:



			Would it be possible for someone to explain what (in an ideal world!) a farrier should do when shoeing a horse. Assuming the feet are fairly decent and they are not trying to correct anything! Just would like a basic outline pleeease?

What should they do to the frog & sole? Wall?
Where should the shoe be placed? 
how much rasping of the wall to finish off is actually required. 

And any pics of wonderful shod feet would be very grateful
		
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This isn't possible I'm afraid Sults, for two reasons. The first is that every horse is different and what is good shoeing for one might be very poor shoeing for another, even if the two look like bog standard horses to shoe.

The second is that farriers differ in their shoeing methods and there is no absolute right or wrong, for example, about where the shoe fits on the toe, how far back behind the heel it should stick out, how wide it should fit at the heel, whether flat shoes, fullered shoes, Natural Balance shoes or Cytek shoes should be used, whether to fit inside the outer edge of the foot and rasp back to the shoe or not, etc etc.

The best advice I could give is that if you aren't happy about what your farrier is doing, ask until you _are_ happy that what he is doing is correct, or until he changes what he is doing. If neither of those things happen, change your farrier. (This is not easy at all from some people in some parts of the country which are short of good farriers.)


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## Sults (10 February 2012)

Yes i do see what you mean. 

Thing is, my boy (rising 7yr, TB) is having shoes on for the first time next month. He has never been shod but at the level he will be competing at this summer i do want him to have studs in.

His sole and frogs look good, so should the farrier not need to touch these?


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## cptrayes (10 February 2012)

"for" not "from"


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## A Guilding (10 February 2012)

cptrayes said:



			That jury can't know a lot about horses A G  

It would only be true that a horse cannot move in a straight line with a different stride length if the horse never had a moment of suspension when all four feet are off the floor and the body is moving forwards over the ground. And that that moment of suspension can, and is, used by the horse to make adjustments to keep itself straight.

Of course, it's also the case that in trot, the pace most often used to diagnose lameness, the diagonally opposite foot can compensate. As I'm sure you will have seen, horse who are lame very often show changes in the diagonally opposite foot, especially when the lameness is  on the back.

So it is perfectly possible for the horses body to move forwards in the air during the moment of suspension with both sides covering an equal distance but for the horse to place a foot down short.

Just in case you really never have seen a horse take a markedly different length stride with the hind feet, yet be perfectly straight and sound to ride a dressage competition (and win) I can point you to a dozen videos of the horse that I gave away because he has spavin. I guess the experts who have worked out that it isn't possible didn't get round to telling him yet ?
		
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I am 100% in agreement with you, There are a raft of papers that have used treadmills and high speed cameras that say no significant difference in stride length, but i think there is.


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## A Guilding (10 February 2012)

I will try and put some photos together next week of what we look for in a shod horse at each process if any one is interested. we use different marker points on the hoof to identify where to put the shoe. not fool proof but a good guide.


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## A Guilding (10 February 2012)

quirky said:



			Sorry, I shall consider myself suitably admonished .

_* Slopes off to find the more polite area of the forum *_

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Appoligies that wasn't my intention, It is an area that interests me a lot and could fill the same number of pages. I am crap at posting and typing and love to help.


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## sbloom (10 February 2012)

Sults said:



			Yes i do see what you mean. 

Thing is, my boy (rising 7yr, TB) is having shoes on for the first time next month. He has never been shod but at the level he will be competing at this summer i do want him to have studs in.

His sole and frogs look good, so should the farrier not need to touch these?
		
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I would personally think long and hard about whether he really needs them:

http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2010/06/some-horses-dont-need-studs.html

There are lots of posts on this blog about eventing and studs - I think if horses can hunt around Exmoor barefoot then most eventing will be a doddle, though I understand the SJ section is probably the most challenging.


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## Oberon (10 February 2012)

quirky said:



			Oberon - I have seen a foal on the ground, before he had even stood and he had a club foot. How can that be caused by stride or higher pain when he hadn't even walked?
		
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They can be born with them - some theories are due to nutritional imbalance via the mare.

It can correct or improve with sympathetic hoof care - but what can happen is that there is aggressive treatment to correct it that can compromise the hoof and end up making things worse

I guess my point is, "Sometimes but not always" is a good rule to live by with horses


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## trina1982 (10 February 2012)

A Guilding said:



			I will try and put some photos together next week of what we look for in a shod horse at each process if any one is interested. we use different marker points on the hoof to identify where to put the shoe. not fool proof but a good guide.
		
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Yep, i'm interested!


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## tallyho! (10 February 2012)

A Guilding said:



			I will try and put some photos together next week of what we look for in a shod horse at each process if any one is interested. we use different marker points on the hoof to identify where to put the shoe. not fool proof but a good guide.
		
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Thanks, that would be really good A G!


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## quirky (10 February 2012)

Oberon - As it was noticed early, the farrier didn't try and correct it as such, he worked with the foot at the shape it chose to grow, iyswim.


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## Kiristamm (10 February 2012)

moorman said:



			Sorry forgot to put page up:
http://www.rockfoot.com/why.html

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Is this website you? I referenced it in my dissertation! what a coincident.


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## Kiristamm (10 February 2012)

I did! my lecturers were very interested in it


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## JenHunt (10 February 2012)

cptrayes said:



			For me this is a mark of a truly great farrier. He has watched the horse, listened to the horse and not attempted to impose his own idea of symmetry on the horse.

The difficulty  is for the ordinary mortal to understand when this would be a bodge job by a bad farrier and when it is a great job by a skilled farrier. If your farrier shoes your horse with this kind of imbalance but cannot explain why, challenge him/her!
		
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I didn't need to challenge my farrier about it - this is one of the things that makes me trust his judgement. He went out of his way to explain it, until he was blue in the face, to make sure I understood and was happy before he even started to put a shoe back on! 

we then tried 6 weeks (as you may remember) of barefoot behind for Ron in the summer. the farrier said he wouldn't cope, I blindly thought he would, but agreed that if, after 6 weeks he wasn't coping then the shoes would go back on. In all fairness, the farrier was right. Ron didn't cope very well, but I'm sure that was partly down to my naivety in how we worked him. But - it did tell me a lot about Ron, and the farrier. He was right, and Ron's feet did not change shape at all (he was out 24/7 at the time and in moderate work) - which suggests to me that he is being shod how his foot would choose to be, just that they like the protection the shoe affords them.



A Guilding said:



			I will try and put some photos together next week of what we look for in a shod horse at each process if any one is interested. we use different marker points on the hoof to identify where to put the shoe. not fool proof but a good guide.
		
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would be very interested!


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## foxy1 (11 February 2012)

A Guilding said:



			I will try and put some photos together next week of what we look for in a shod horse at each process if any one is interested. we use different marker points on the hoof to identify where to put the shoe. not fool proof but a good guide.
		
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I would love to see this too. This is a great thread, thanks to all who have contributed


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## KSR (11 February 2012)

Heres a photo of the outside the shoeing before last.. Equally as scary as the X-rays but worlds better than previous farrier.. He's been Almost sound since April 2010.. Uncomfortable days but mainly thinks he's fine.. I'll post steward clog pics after his imminent visit if anyone is interested.. He has no filler now.. 







And this is why we fight


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## cptrayes (11 February 2012)

KSR said:



			Heres a photo of the outside the shoeing before last.. Equally as scary as the X-rays but worlds better than previous farrier.. He's been Almost sound since April 2010.. Uncomfortable days but mainly thinks he's fine.. I'll post steward clog pics after his imminent visit if anyone is interested.. He has no filler now.. 






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KSR can you remind us briefly what his problems were? They were obviously VERY compromised feet, from where the growth lines are running.  If you follow the line on the toe it goes down the to a point well under his foot - in other words, to grow this foot he was putting out heel at least twice as quickly as he was putting out toe. I beleive that's characteristic of a chronic laminitic?  You look lucky that he has enough quality of horn to hold the shoeing to put his feet right.

I'd certainly like to see pictures of clogs, I haven't a clue what they are


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## amandap (11 February 2012)

Info about Steward clogs. http://www.hopeforsoundness.com/cms/steward-clog-instruction-guide.html

I have an online friend whose horse was fitted with these. In the end she went down the barefoot route with a very experienced trimmer and help from metabolic experts in diet etc. The horse is doing well but it hasn't been and isn't easy.


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## KSR (11 February 2012)

I bought him as an obese rising 4yo with no lust for life.. Flat feet, flared, passed vetting no problem.. He was just mildly concerned about a scar from the back of his pastern, across his heel bulb and just joining the back of his hoof.. No lameness and no previous admitted..

His current farrier began working with him when he was 5.. His toes were all brought back and his feet gradually corrected and he was put in NB shoes.. I was made aware at this point that he must have had Lami in the past whether dietary (likely with his super show condition) or mechanical or another cause as there was separation of the wall from underlying tissue at the toe at this time already.. He was extremely sensitive without shoes.. So he was managed accordingly wrt diet, restricted grazing etc and he was exercised at least 4 times a week.. His weight by this time was the lighter side of normal and has mostly stated that way barring a few months of being very thin.. I have always tried to keep the weight off as his hooves are so compromised and he's worked regularly but not competed or ridden to excess or fast hacking on roads etc.. 

YO moved to France, farrier moved out of the country and I spent years struggling with farriers who couldn't make their minds up what to do, wouldn't listen to me and gradually his toes were getting longer and longer again and more flared.. They've had him in and out of bar shoes several times.. Through everything he stayed sound..

I had 3 farrier changes due to yard moves, 1 due to him trying to get me in a stable for his own entertainment plus taking  ack shoes off and  crippling horse, and 1 cos my placid mild mannered horse wouldn't let him near him.. 

He was sound until September/October 2010 when I noticed him pecking whilst walking down a hill.. Took him straight off all turnout and let him have hay in the barn/turnout yard only.. Vet unconcerned, just advised to rest.. A few weeks later his sole dropped and farrier put him back in barshoes which made him increasingly crippled.. He packed in the shoe with purple plasticky stuff.. On box rest and bute from vet.. X-rays in the November showed 












I'd spent the whole time telling him repeatedly about the horses feet, how they were made up, how they'd always had to be maintained and asked loads of questions but although I was answered I was never really listened too.. I was already searching for my original farrier leaving messages everywhere that I had to have him to see my horse at any financial cost.. Horse not getting any better, vet said the heart bars weren't agreeing with him and they needed to come off.. Farrier carried on doing what he was doing.. Also asked repeatedly about putting back shoes back on to be told no he is fine.. Was enquiring about any other farrier by this point and toying with putting horse to sleep.. Decided to give it one last go and finally found original farrier..

He came to view, looked at X-rays, spent an hour or so just looking, watching horse move and asking loads of questions.. This is normal in our case now.. Came back from Brighton 2 weeks later to try to help.. Natural balance shoes back on, and shoes on back, horse instantly comfortable and walking around freely.. Horse was in shoes more than 2 sizes bigger than he should be by this point..

Since April 2011 he has been off any pain meds apart from the odd off day  off box rest and loose in the yard again, occasional turnout in bare paddock with muzzle so he can't eat if he gets too excitable and slowly but surely the feet are coming back together.. Originally half the sole was rotten, I'll post pics when I'm home, and you could feel pretty much all the way up between his hoof wall and underlying structures.. This is now halfway grown out and his frogs and soles are much better quality, not depressable with your finger and much less dropped.. Seem to be trying to heal themselves.. Angles are much improving too..

There is so much I've not said and more ill remember and just taking it a day at a time and hope he doesn't deteriorate.. He wouldn't survive it cos I couldn't put him through it again..

We will be moving to Devon soon, keeping the same farrier and will be going through all the new forage analysis stuff again and starting from scratch from that respect..

At the minute he is Lucky he is still with me, but I won't hesitate to pts if farrier and I agree he's had enough or goes backwards.. We feel whilst he is content as he is and the light is in his eyes he deserves the chance..


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## KSR (11 February 2012)

Sorry, that's not brief 

Always flat soled, toes too long and flared.. 

Corrected at 5-7..

 7-10 let go and messed about by a few farriers, one in particular..

Led to long toes, flared sides, sudden mild lameness progressing to one severely and suddenly dropped sole with pedal rotation, compromised strength of horn, lots of space between wall and inner structures, soft poor quality sole and angle of horn growing down very different to the angle the new hoof was trying to grow.. Pretty much everything..

11 til now is last ditch chance to correct.. Doubt even rockley farm could help..


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## amandap (11 February 2012)

My heart goes out to you KSR. I recommend you join the Yahoo group linked down the page. Many people in your position on there as well as experts who have been sharing information and advice for years so it's a fabulous collective resource. http://www.ecirhorse.com/
Also google Pete Ramey and have a look at his articles. x There is info on his 10 DVD series (expensive but worth while) about laminitis and trimming and support for laminitic hooves. Two DVD's dedicated specifically to it as well as theory.


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## KSR (11 February 2012)

Just had a quick nosey, looks good.. I'll have a good browse later on  thanks to all for their interest and for support shown..


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## cptrayes (11 February 2012)

KSR said:



			Just had a quick nosey, looks good.. I'll have a good browse later on  thanks to all for their interest and for support shown..
		
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He's a lucky horse to have been owned by you.

I agree with you totally,  I would not mess with anything right now. He must have underlying metabolic issues to grow feet with such a difference between the rate of production of toe and heel, I would have thought, and even Rockley don't knowingly take horses whose fundamental problem is metabolic.

Can I ask what breed he is?


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## amandap (11 February 2012)

cptrayes said:



			He's a lucky horse to have been owned by you.

I agree with you totally,  I would not mess with anything right now. He must have underlying metabolic issues to grow feet with such a difference between the rate of production of toe and heel, I would have thought, and even Rockley don't knowingly take horses whose fundamental problem is metabolic.
		
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I agree too. Getting to the bottom of possible metabolic issues is vital before planning possible future changes. x


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## KSR (11 February 2012)

He's a purebred Cleveland Bay.. 

His sister had textbook perfect feet.. He showed very successfully as a foal and young colt then sold to be a companion to an old Cushings horse as a 2yo.. I brought him home just turned 4.. He was very overweight..

She was a year younger, bought from my CB breeder friend from Wales in very poor condition, having been a brood mare.. So maybe he's just unfortunate or there was information withheld at time of purchase, who really knows..

I've had him tested for IR, Cushings, EMS and EPSM so far and everything has come back completely normal.. Vets wish it was one of them because as it stands they can think of nowhere to proceed, just to manage the feet.. It's so frustrating.. I can't do more than I'm doing without knowing why his feet are so compromised.. Could be physiological, genetic or at the biochemical level.. I suppose he could be an interesting case study for anyone who is interested 

I don't want to monopolise this thread either, so apologies if that's the case


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## KSR (11 February 2012)

My friend wasn't the breeder who bred from my mare by the way..


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## little_critter (11 February 2012)

Right here's my pics (hopefully - have never loaded pics before, sorry is they're massive!)
I'm ashamed to say I know bugger all about feet (have had 1st horse for a year and she hasn't had any foot problems) But have found this thread really useful.
Here goes...
Near fore...















Near hind















Off fore















Off hind
















I'm happy with her feet (but as admitted I don't know much) so would be interested in your comments. She has always had the red tinge to her hoof on her near hind but it's never seemed to cause her a problem.
Last shod 25th Jan and is done every 7 weeks.


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## trina1982 (11 February 2012)

Hartika said:



			17yo 15.1hh Irish sport horse gelding, shod yesterday what do we think?








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I'm very interested to hear what people say about these feet. I have an idea in my own mind but I will await the more knowledgable peeps opinions! I will say it looks like your farrier has rasped quite high up the wall. Is that right, or a trick of the light?

Trina x


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## cptrayes (11 February 2012)

Hartika said:



			17yo 15.1hh Irish sport horse gelding, shod yesterday what do we think?








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For a horse who was shod yesterday, the whole foot is extraordinarily long and the heel is very, very high. Look at the first half inch of growth - it's a completely different angle than the rest of his foot. I don't think the angle your farrier has given him is the one that he wants.


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## cptrayes (11 February 2012)

Hartika said:



			17yo 15.1hh Irish sport horse gelding, shod yesterday what do we think?












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These two pictures appear to show an imbalance with one side of the foot noticeably longer than the other. On the one from the front, you need to imagine the continuation of the hairline under the leg wrap. If this has not been done for a reason, it is the kind of imbalance that leads to collateral ligament injury.

Again, for a horse shod yesterday I would be very concerned about this unless it has been done deliberately for some reason.


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## little_critter (12 February 2012)

Anyone fancy commenting on my feet on page 44? Or are they wholly unremarkable feet? From what I've picked up so far her heels look shorter than many of the pics on here. Is that a good thing?


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## cptrayes (12 February 2012)

little_critter said:



			Anyone fancy commenting on my feet on page 44? Or are they wholly unremarkable feet? From what I've picked up so far her heels look shorter than many of the pics on here. Is that a good thing?
		
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Short of time so I'll just say that all the shoes look a bit small to me, and in one shot the shoe is clearly ending well in front of the toe - has your farrier explained why he has done that? 

I prefer your horse's heel length to the one above, but I know neither of your horses and both could be correct for the horse that they are on.


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## little_critter (12 February 2012)

Thanks for the comment. Yes I see what you mean, the foot is having to come in a little to meet the shoe. And yes the shoe is a bit forward. She tends to go on the forehand so would bringing the breakover point back help in getting her to pick her front feet up better?  Sadly I don't see my farrier as I have to be at work and he sorts her out himself. I will see if I can discuss this with him at her next shoeing


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## black_horse (12 February 2012)

Further to my post i also found this pic of her iron foot 







my farrier is amazing


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## Sults (13 February 2012)

A Guilding said:



			I will try and put some photos together next week of what we look for in a shod horse at each process if any one is interested. we use different marker points on the hoof to identify where to put the shoe. not fool proof but a good guide.
		
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yes please A Guilding! would be very interested to see


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## Sults (13 February 2012)

sbloom said:



			I would personally think long and hard about whether he really needs them:

http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2010/06/some-horses-dont-need-studs.html

There are lots of posts on this blog about eventing and studs - I think if horses can hunt around Exmoor barefoot then most eventing will be a doddle, though I understand the SJ section is probably the most challenging.
		
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Yes i have thought long and hard about it. He will be competing at Novice BE and will be hoping to qualify for a 1*. The second half of last season, where it was so wet he often didn't make the time xc (as well as a couple of slips SJ'ing). So i would feel happier being able to put studs in. 
The shoes will come off once the season is finished.

I would be gratefull for a rough guide to how a shod horse should look as its been about 8 years since i'v had a horse shod!

I do have the book no foot, no horse but it seems to mainly have pics of feet that need correcting. If anyone can point me in the direct of any books or websites that have examples of good shoeing it would be much appreciated!


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## trina1982 (13 February 2012)

I started a thread about a book the other day....

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=515035

It was first written in 1895 but I've found what i've read so far to be very comparable (if not better practise) than what is currently often seen! Would love a farriers opinion on the book.

Trina x


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## little_critter (13 February 2012)

little_critter said:



			Thanks for the comment. Yes I see what you mean, the foot is having to come in a little to meet the shoe. And yes the shoe is a bit forward. She tends to go on the forehand so would bringing the breakover point back help in getting her to pick her front feet up better?  Sadly I don't see my farrier as I have to be at work and he sorts her out himself. I will see if I can discuss this with him at her next shoeing
		
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Could someone answer my query...if my horse tends to go on the forehand will moving the breakover back help her to pick up her front feet better? or will she land on her nose?
And before you say there are no quick fixes I am schooling to lift her forehand but if her shoes are impeding her then I'd want to look at that too.


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## Sults (13 February 2012)

trina1982 said:



			I started a thread about a book the other day....

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=515035

It was first written in 1895 but I've found what i've read so far to be very comparable (if not better practise) than what is currently often seen! Would love a farriers opinion on the book.

Trina x
		
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Thanks trina!!!!


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## trina1982 (13 February 2012)

Thanks Moorman.

I've just now started the section about calkins and found it interesting that the author thinks that although they are helpful for the horse to begin with (for grip and stability), he actually thinks it makes the horse worse off in the long run because once the calkins wear down, the horse can no longer use them and is then more insecure and unbalanced (because he relied on them) than if he had never had them. I can't help but wonder if horses get used to jumping with studs in the same way? Then start feeling very insecure if they then have to use only what nature gave them?

I read page 56 - very interesting and much like the first few chapters i've read so far, makes you realise how educated they were (as you point out - with what little they had available to them). I was unsure whether we nowadays would advocate shoeing as a way of correcting limb deformity at such a young age (i read p56, 57, 58 of the online version - i assume this is what you meant). 

Thanks for your input!
Trina x


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## amandap (13 February 2012)

I've often wondered if and how much extra strain studs could put on horses legs. Especially when they allow faster speeds, turns etc. without slip. 
Also, surely they unbalance the shoe and therefore the hoof to some extent or is that taken into account when the shoe is fitted?


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## LucyPriory (13 February 2012)

moorman said:



*          Studs should be banned!!*
They are not allowed in racing where you can have 30 horses going flat-out into the Canal Turn (not that I approve of that either) but at least the cases of jarring are much diminished.
It is a sad day when we build bigger courses to obtain results, all we end up doing is fitting bigger and bigger studs to cope with the demands put upon the horse that has no say in the matter.
 Do we wait until legs/ligaments start to be broken due to horses being over studded?
Already I have to deal with loads of caudal problems due to studs
As long as a rider feels they make a difference then they will use them.
Ban them, and make the courses testing but safe.
In the past I have shod horses at the top level of all disciplines. I never put a stud in a shoe, it is far better that the horse is surefooted and that the rider knows they are on a horse that is responsible for its own abilities.
		
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This ^^^^^^^


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## amandap (13 February 2012)

That's what I thought.  Also, pushing horses so they slip leading to using studs also allows natural body limits to be broken. I wholeheartedly think the courses and speeds should be dictated by the horses safety not the ability of a devise to allow humans to push horses beyond their limits.


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## cptrayes (13 February 2012)

moorman said:



*          Studs should be banned!!*
They are not allowed in racing where you can have 30 horses going flat-out into the Canal Turn (not that I approve of that either) but at least the cases of jarring are much diminished.
It is a sad day when we build bigger courses to obtain results, all we end up doing is fitting bigger and bigger studs to cope with the demands put upon the horse that has no say in the matter.
 Do we wait until legs/ligaments start to be broken due to horses being over studded?
Already I have to deal with loads of caudal problems due to studs
As long as a rider feels they make a difference then they will use them.
Ban them, and make the courses testing but safe.
In the past I have shod horses at the top level of all disciplines. I never put a stud in a shoe, it is far better that the horse is surefooted and that the rider knows they are on a horse that is responsible for its own abilities.
		
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I am always amazed by the people who hunt and event who insist that they need studs for eventing when they would not dream of studding to hunt.  Havign evented with and without them on the same two horses I can honestly say it made not one jot of difference to either of them except in a dry hard dressage arena where they slipped on the corners if asked to go too fast/with too much power.

Having used them, I have no doubt that they allow horses to perform above the level of what their natural/schooled balance would allow them to do, and I often wonder at what cost to the joints, particularly as those are usually the younger horses.

Having said that, I understand totally why people use them. They do make you, as a rider, feel more confident about sending the horse on (you can tell the difference in yourself the first couple of times you ride without them). When jumping fixed timber in particular, that condfidence on the part of the rider feeds through to the horse, or rather a lack of confidence without them does. So I believe that they do affect a horse's performance, just not quite in the way most people believe.


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## A Guilding (13 February 2012)

Today I got a second year apprentice to shoe a dead foot for the benefit everyone on here. He is a very talented lad so go easy on him. (He had no idea why I got him to do this' for him it is an every day job).
there wasnt much hoof to come off and we didnt get any pre trim pics.
I get them to draw a line on the foot at the widest part to give the lads an idea of where to center the shoe.


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## A Guilding (13 February 2012)

The center line should have as much metal behind the line as in front of it. This is what we use to decide the size of the shoe, If it is to small then it will not reach the heels, (the widest part of the frog as a guide) or the farrier will need to thin the toe to much to make it reach.







The side view shoes a generous amount of metal for the foot to stand on, not silly long but plenty of room for the foot to grow and the shoe isnt to small.







I have drawn some lines on the picture for the inexperinced eye to see it better. to me this is a balanced looking shoe, made for the foot by the apprentice. Uually if it looks right it is, and this looks right as the lines were drawn after and just his eye was used before.


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## amandap (13 February 2012)

What a great idea A. Guilding. I personally very much appreciate you going to all this effort to help us understand. Thank the 'lad' too.


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## Bernster (13 February 2012)

amandap said:



			What a great idea A. Guilding. I personally very much appreciate you going to all this effort to help us understand. Thank the 'lad' too.
		
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Agree!! Having just read the yucky picture thread, and this dead foot being shod thread, I am certainly better informed but now unlikely to want any dinner...


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## Montys_Mum (13 February 2012)

I wondered if anyone would like to make their opinions on my horses feet/shoes? He has typical TB's feet with crappy heels and long and flat feet. He seems to have quite thin soles which are sensitive. I am fairly happy with the shoeing but tbh i have no idea really about the horses feet or how they should really be shod. He has heart bars on the front since the start of summer last year to add support as he was lame. Pictures are just after being shod.

Front Left 

















Back left


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## jphfarrier (13 February 2012)

cptrayes said:



			OK I'll start.

Your horse has been shod with wide web aluminium shoes which are light and will, when they first go on, bear weight slightly inside the hoof wall as well as on it, spreading the load. Unfortunately, as you can see, after 4 weeks the hoof wall has grown and the shoe no longer does what it was designed to do. That's not a problem with the shoeing, it's a problem with the fact that horses feet grow. 

But, it looks like the shoes do not extend to the full length of where the heel plane would be in contact with the floor. It looks like they are about 1/8th to 1/4inch short. It's worse on the right of the photo than the left. Lots of farriers do this so that the horse will not tread the shoe off, but it's not ideal as it shortens the support for the heel. 

Your horse looks as if it has been left with  very high heel but they may ahve grown this way in 4 weeks. The frog is some way above the bottom of the horn, and then there is the shoe as well, so it will be nigh on impossible to get much stimulation for the frog if the photo is telling the truth. 

The heel appears to be underrun - it seems to be some way out in front of the bulbs of the heels, and although we can't see the cannon bones, it seems possible that the foot may not be standing under the cannon bone and supporting the leg properly.  In the front feet I  look for the last bit  of the heel in contact with the floor  being underneath  a line drawn down the middle of the cannon bone. 

That might be why the front of the hoof is bending out to give the foot a long toe, which the farrier has rasped back, correctly, to allow the horse to break over earlier in each stride. Many farriers would have shod the horse with longer shoes that poke out over the end of the heel to correct the underrun, but the problem with that is that they come off very easily.

She has of course got two compeletely unmatched front feet in that photo, but we only have close-ups of the one I have commented on. 

In summary I would say that for me these are "not great" feet (hence the fact that the horse is now in a barefoot rehab) in "not bad" shoeing. 

Anyone else got some comments?
		
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The shoes on this horse are steel not aluminium, natural balance shoes. I agree the feet are not shod with enough support for the feet, this may be a result of fear for them being pulled off but no excuse. They are also hind shoes so unless they are on hind feet they dont give they same degree of breakover benefits a NB front shoe would give as well as the fact they perched onto the toe and not positioned correctly for the style of shoe to give its optimum performance. 

Even in barefoot its still important for the balancing and foot mapping to be addressed. And from what i have seen in past few years its massively influenced by how the hooves grow from the inside out, the right diet and if necessary supplements have made a massive impact to how i have seen feet improve whether shod or barefoot.

Of course this is all just my opinion and sometimes that accounts for nothing!


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## cptrayes (14 February 2012)

jphfarrier said:



			The shoes on this horse are steel not aluminium, natural balance shoes. I agree the feet are not shod with enough support for the feet, this may be a result of fear for them being pulled off but no excuse. They are also hind shoes so unless they are on hind feet they dont give they same degree of breakover benefits a NB front shoe would give as well as the fact they perched onto the toe and not positioned correctly for the style of shoe to give its optimum performance. 

Even in barefoot its still important for the balancing and foot mapping to be addressed. And from what i have seen in past few years its massively influenced by how the hooves grow from the inside out, the right diet and if necessary supplements have made a massive impact to how i have seen feet improve whether shod or barefoot.

Of course this is all just my opinion and sometimes that accounts for nothing!

Click to expand...

Wow, where have you been for 46 pages ?

I was corrected a long time ago on the steel. You are totally right about the diet of course, one of the interesting things about keeping horses without shoes on is to see how they vary from day to day in their ability to step on a stone and not flinch, depending on how the sun shone and the grass grew yesterday or the day before.


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## trina1982 (14 February 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Wow, where have you been for 46 pages ?
		
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Ooooh, we've got another farrier! Cool


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## cptrayes (15 February 2012)

Montys_Mum said:



			I wondered if anyone would like to make their opinions on my horses feet/shoes? He has typical TB's feet with crappy heels and long and flat feet. He seems to have quite thin soles which are sensitive. I am fairly happy with the shoeing but tbh i have no idea really about the horses feet or how they should really be shod. He has heart bars on the front since the start of summer last year to add support as he was lame. Pictures are just after being shod.

Front Left 

















Back left
















Click to expand...

It's difficult to be sure because your pictures were not taken from level with his feet, but in two of these shots the foot looks longer on the left hand side.  He also has the fairly common change of angle after the first half inch of foot which shows that he really wants to grow a steeper angle of foot, but can't for some reason.

I'm glad the heart bars are working for you, I know they do with many horses. But if at some time in the future they stop working and he is lame again, please don't take his "typical" TB feet to mean that would prevent him having a period without shoes. It should do him a lot of good in building up his heels. You might also check the barefoot threads for diet advice which could help restore some depth and concavity to his feet with the shoes still on. Flatness/lack of concavity often comes from being unable to cope with a diet too high (for the individual horse, they vary a lot) in carbohydrates/sugar.


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## ferrador (15 February 2012)

did you have to use frost nails David ?


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## cptrayes (15 February 2012)

ferrador said:



			did you have to use frost nails David ?
		
Click to expand...



Ferrador is also a farrier folks, for those who don't know already. Also for those who don't know, frost nails are tungsten tipped nails that are extremely hard and the pimple of tungsten provides loads of grip on slippy tarmac.

Can you explain what you are trying to say, I doubt if I'm the only one who is confused.


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## amandap (15 February 2012)

cptrayes said:





Ferrador is also a farrier folks, for those who don't know already. 

Can you explain what you are trying to say, I doubt if I'm the only one who is confused.
		
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I don't know what frost nails are either or why you would choose them. I'm assuming it's not to do with temperature.


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## ester (15 February 2012)

I was more confused with who David was!


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## cptrayes (15 February 2012)

I'm pretty sure that David is someone who does not want to post openly under his own name, and since Ferrador does not use his own name either, I would ask him not to cause nastiness on this thread which has so far been absolutely brilliant.

Ferrador please, you're a very experienced remedial farrier. If you can help people learn about foot care for their horses, post some stuff that people can benefit from. Otherwise, please can you go and play somewhere else?


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## cptrayes (15 February 2012)

amandap said:



			I don't know what frost nails are either or why you would choose them. I'm assuming it's not to do with temperature. 

Click to expand...

These  We cross posted.

http://www.horseshoeexpress.com.au/tungsten-pin-road-safety-nails.html


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## cptrayes (15 February 2012)

Although I have heard of tungsten nails called frost nails, this may be more accurate. Their purpose is the same.

http://www.mustadhoofnails.com/subcat/40/product/1972/page/0/frost_nail/


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## amandap (15 February 2012)

Thanks cptrayes.


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## Tinypony (15 February 2012)

Just want to add my thanks to everyone taking so much time and trouble over this thread, very informative.  If I ever have shoes put on one of mine again I'll be back here for a read!


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## NOISYGIRL (16 February 2012)

I'm confused who's David ? this thread is brilliant btw


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## cptrayes (16 February 2012)

moorman said:



			Just wanted to give  cptrayes the credit deserved for starting such a successful thread
		
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I'm chuffed how interested people have been, and just grateful that it stayed so incredibly civilised 



NOISYGIRL said:



			I'm confused who's David ? this thread is brilliant btw
		
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It's someone who, just like you, doesn't want to use their proper name.  Farriers recognise each other's shoeing, and the one called Ferrador was just having a little dig at someone whose work he thinks he has recognised. It's his only contribution to the thread in spite of being a remedial farrier whose experience could have helped us all. Please, let it go, it's not relevant or helpful to the thread.


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## lauraanddolly (16 February 2012)

Very interesting, thank you all who have contributed!  I am happy with my farrier, however there are a few things I have noticed this time - If I took some pictures (will be possibly over the weekend as not good light before or after work tomorrow) would one of the kind knowledgeable ones please talk me through what they see?


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## cptrayes (17 February 2012)

If you count me as either kind or knowledgeable I'll try 

Please be prepared to get dirty  We need pictures from the side and the front with the camera on the floor, so you need to be there too.

Do tell us with the pictures if your horse has any foot/movement issues and how long the shoes have been on for.


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## ferrador (17 February 2012)

just like to point out to folk that i am a farrier , i have never claimed anywhere i am a "remedial farrier" , and if folk checked the forums it is common knowledge on exactly who i am . 
a frost nail is not a tungsten tipped nail , it is a large headed nail that is sharpened and used to be fitted every day by the handler , they have not been produced for over 80 yrs but have been replaced by many options mainly screw in studs
chris


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## amandap (17 February 2012)

ferrador said:



			a frost nail is not a tungsten tipped nail , it is a large headed nail that is sharpened and used to be fitted every day by the handler , they have not been produced for over 80 yrs but have been replaced by many options mainly screw in studs
chris
		
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Ah, thank you for that explanation.


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## A Guilding (18 February 2012)

ferrador said:



			just like to point out to folk that i am a farrier , i have never claimed anywhere i am a "remedial farrier" , and if folk checked the forums it is common knowledge on exactly who i am . 
a frost nail is not a tungsten tipped nail , it is a large headed nail that is sharpened and used to be fitted every day by the handler , they have not been produced for over 80 yrs but have been replaced by many options mainly screw in studs
chris
		
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There are many terms for farriers, Remedial, Corrective, Referral etc, Chris is a good farrier and that is the highest level in my mind you can reach in the trade.
As I have said elsewhere on the forum beware labels, people judge you for the label, some of the best work I have seen done in the world has been by quiet unassuming professionals who serve there customers well, keeping sound horses sound and relieving the consequences of pathology and disease.
All of the jobs on this thread have been in my mind ranged from good working jobs to excellent.


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## LadyRascasse (18 February 2012)

Make of this what you will, I won't be offended! Horse was crippled before and after

so Before's are after the vet removed his shoes and the afters are what the vet prescribed to help with his lameness

Near Fore Before






and after






Off Fore Before






and after






Near Hind Before 






and after






Off Hind Before






and After


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## A Guilding (18 February 2012)

I am going to say it before anyone else does, in order to see the finished article lets clean them and get all the dirt wet and mud off them as it is hard to see where the hoof starts and the leg finishes. what did the vet diognose was the cause of lameness?


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## amandap (18 February 2012)

Yes, I'd be really interested in the reasons for the angle change in the off fore especially.


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## HashRouge (18 February 2012)

I'm finding this thread fascinating - glad it's still going!


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## cptrayes (18 February 2012)

ferrador said:



			just like to point out to folk that i am a farrier , i have never claimed anywhere i am a "remedial farrier" , and if folk checked the forums it is common knowledge on exactly who i am . 
a frost nail is not a tungsten tipped nail , it is a large headed nail that is sharpened and used to be fitted every day by the handler , they have not been produced for over 80 yrs but have been replaced by many options mainly screw in studs
chris
		
Click to expand...

My deepest apologies for having promoted you Chris. I was sure you said you did remedial work, I am sorry if that is not true.

Frost nails, as is clear from googling the term, are also permanently placed sharp headed nails, and I'm sure that I have heard people refer to tungsten tip nails (commonly called road nails around here) as frost nails, clearly in error as you point out.

Now, was there anything else that we can learn by you asking why another farrier used them? Do you disapprove of their use  or particularly approve of their use, for example?


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## cptrayes (18 February 2012)

Ladyracasse we need, pretty please:

clean photos taken at ground level from the front and the side. 

an explanation of what the diagnosis was of your horse's lameness.

I have to say that because of the research I have done into them, I am personally very anti wedges for anything but a very short term relaxation of an injured tendon to allow it to heal.  (1 shoeing, perhaps, then half size for another so as not to stretch the tendon suddenly by removing them all in one go).  I wouldn't, personally, use them for tendon injury inside the foot, because I think that heals better if you allow the frog to work to support the foot, only for ones higher in the leg. I am not a vet, or a farrier, or even a paid trimmer. These are very much my personal beliefs, but based on research carried out by people who are qualified to judge.


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## LadyRascasse (18 February 2012)

A Guilding said:



			I am going to say it before anyone else does, in order to see the finished article lets clean them and get all the dirt wet and mud off them as it is hard to see where the hoof starts and the leg finishes. what did the vet diognose was the cause of lameness?
		
Click to expand...

Slightly difficult now as these are 3 years old and the horse is dead. The vet never managed to diagnose it however, I changed farrier when to a lightweight shoe with no clips and in 3 shoeing he was sound. I posted them as example of bad feet/shoeing.


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## LadyRascasse (18 February 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I have to say that because of the research I have done into them, I am personally very anti wedges
		
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I would NEVER allow a farrier to put a wedge on my horses feet ever again! this regime by the vet and old farrier crippled my horse, making his lameness much worse than it ever was. However you have to live and learn, was a rather harsh and steep learning curve


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## LadyRascasse (18 February 2012)

Right I think this is the first shoeing by the 'new farrier'

Near fore











Off Fore











Near Hind











Off Hind


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## lauraanddolly (18 February 2012)

Here are mine, I'm totally not sure pictures are good enough but do what you can with them! 

Right Fore 











The longer edge on this worry's me, not sure why it is like it is? 







Left Fore 











Right hind 






Again same as the front one, only like this on front and hind on the right side






Left hind 






Shoes where a new set on the 24th January.


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## cptrayes (18 February 2012)

L&D I would also be worried about  the shoe being longer on one side than the other by quite a long way in the sole shots, with one side lying right on top of the frog and the other some way away from it, with the heel bulbs out to one side of the shoe.

I'd also be concerned about the balance of at least one of the feet. If it looks like that in real life, then it looks imbalanced - taller on one side than the other - and you should ask your farrier if there is a problem. 

The final thing that concerns me is the shape of your horse's feet. Again, unless it is the photos misleading me, they all look as if the line of the toe is convex. Your farrier might have rasped the toe to make them that shape, but to me they look like they might be growing that way, because the outward curve looks higher than it would normally be if it had been rasped in or worn that way by working in a sand school and dragging her toes. If they are convex, (bullnosed is another term if you want to search the forum for information) then it might indicate that she is getting more carbohydrate/sugar than she can happily digest.



ps I've just noticed how incredibly low the nails are put in on the last photo. Do you know why your farrier has done that? It is truly extraordinary and I have never in my life seen clenches so low on the hoof wall. It looks to me like it's begging for the shoe to pull off and take the bottom of the foot off with it.


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## lauraanddolly (18 February 2012)

Thank you for replying cptrayes. 

 I asked my farrier last shoeing why fairly suddenly her back toes look scuffed, and was told it was her being lazy behind, although recently she has been working more through in general I feel, so this explanation did not make sense to me. Having looked through other posts on this thread I can see what you mean about the bullnosed look, they are growing that way I believe - will research deeper into it.  If there are sources you would be able to recommend to me I would be grateful.  

Are the feet you see as imbalanced the fronts? If so I did struggle to get a level photo in the light i had, will crawl about on the floor some more tomorrow to check again myself if this is the case as even I can see it in my photos, as you say one side taller than the other. 

 Finally no I have no idea why the nails are so low on that last photo! However she has only ever lost 3 shoes in the 11 years I have owned her, so I'm not too worried but will bring it up with farrier on his next visit - also the longer inside edges on both offside feet he has done this a few times before and it does strike me as odd and the reason for my post to begin with!  

 Thank you again for starting such a interesting and informative post, it has made me far more aware of my horses feet and given me a kick up the backside about raising these issues with my farrier, which is long overdue, I just didn't like the idea of questioning his work, but to understand and get the best for my girl I have to.


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## Bikerchickone (18 February 2012)

moorman said:



			4) My final observation is that you have, as far as I can see a horse that has the ability to produce wonderful feet.
And for what it is worth when this type of horse gets referred to me I dont hesitate in taking the shoes off and see what the feet are capable off doing on there own.
		
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Moorman I wish you were in my area. I want to take my cob who has rather strong but obviously not happy feet barefoot and my 'experts' keep telling me his shoes are holding his feet together! So impressed to see a Farrier positive about taking shoes off.


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## lauraanddolly (18 February 2012)

Thank you moorman, general observations are all I am after, I don't for one second think my farrier is bad - or for that matter that he does a bad job. 
 There have been many posts recently on shoeing and barefoot it left me evaluating some things about my horses feet.  For me this type of post means I can ask questions without feeling I am questioning the pro's that do the work for me. Then armed with some info have an informed discussion as to the pro and cons with my professional. 
 As time goes on more people including myself are questioning whether our horses actually need shoes.  For me my horse being shod all round is all I have known for 11 years, it would be weird without them, but if is better....maybe I will talk to the farrier next time, the backs may just have to go! 
 Off to research - many thanks again.


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## Clava (24 February 2012)

Previously barefoot 18months, fronts back on for 6 to 12 weeks to get over worming, help with a couple of cracks (they were improving bare but I feel this will help them grow out quicker, any infection has been treated as best as I can)) and spring grass. She is a Tb and sensitive to sugars, fed high fibre diet (hay, speedibeet, brewers yeast, mag ox and linseed and very little grass at the moment) Recently treated for thrush which seemed to have taken out the back part of the frog, but is now improving (or was).

Not posted because I think this is good shoeing, but because I don't know. Obviously the frog is not in contact with the ground but sticking a shoe on a previously bare hoof where the frog was in contact I'm not sure how that would be achieved?

right


























left


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## cptrayes (24 February 2012)

When was that set put on Clava, those heels look very long to me (and in one photo the right looks longer than the left, but that may be a trick of the camera) ?


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## Clava (24 February 2012)

cptrayes said:



			When was that set put on Clava, those heels look very long to me (and in one photo the right looks longer than the left, but that may be a trick of the camera) ?
		
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Yesterday.

She has previously had very underrun heels, but they have come back under her a lot in the last year. I think the heel might have grown long to protect a weak frog area (but I'm guessing).


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## cptrayes (24 February 2012)

Clava said:



			Yesterday.

She has previously had very underrun heels, but they have come back under her a lot in the last year. I think the heel might have grown long to protect a weak frog area (but I'm guessing).
		
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Mmmm. If my horse had a history of underrun heels, I would not be happy with that amount of heel left on the foot before the shoe even goes on and with the outside of both feet appearing to have a higher heel than the inside.  Of course it's possible that he felt he could not go lower without invading live tissue, but if your horse was mine I'd be wanting the farrier to explain why the shoe is not a lot closer to the level of the frog.

People who are reading this thread do please be aware that although we have a number of farriers contributing it is completely unethical for them to out and out criticise another farrier's work, so don't take lack of comment as indicating approval, it may not.


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## be positive (24 February 2012)

This has been an interesting thread and one thing that stands out to me is how many horses are wearing shoes that seem to me to be short at the heels and often uneven with one side shorter than the other. I have no photos to add as the only shod horses on my yard are liveries, they use 2 different farriers but both fit long at the heel to just against the frog and both sides fit evenly.
I feel that some farriers are trying to prevent shoes being pulled off, especially in the winter in muddy fields, ours do lose the odd shoe but I prefer that to having unbalanced feet or contracted heels.


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## cptrayes (24 February 2012)

be positive said:



			This has been an interesting thread and one thing that stands out to me is how many horses are wearing shoes that seem to me to be short at the heels and often uneven with one side shorter than the other. I have no photos to add as the only shod horses on my yard are liveries, they use 2 different farriers but both fit long at the heel to just against the frog and both sides fit evenly.
I feel that some farriers are trying to prevent shoes being pulled off, especially in the winter in muddy fields, ours do lose the odd shoe but I prefer that to having unbalanced feet or contracted heels.
		
Click to expand...

I completely agree, it's been quite surprising the number like it. The last photo posted is a good example, one branch much shorter than the other.


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## Clava (24 February 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Mmmm. If my horse had a history of underrun heels, I would not be happy with that amount of heel left on the foot before the shoe even goes on and with the outside of both feet appearing to have a higher heel than the inside.  Of course it's possible that he felt he could not go lower without invading live tissue, but if your horse was mine I'd be wanting the farrier to explain why the shoe is not a lot closer to the level of the frog.

People who are reading this thread do please be aware that although we have a number of farriers contributing it is completely unethical for them to out and out criticise another farrier's work, so don't take lack of comment as indicating approval, it may not.
		
Click to expand...

He was concerned that the toe was very short, I did ask about the frog being in contact with the ground and he said that wouldn't be possibly...I think I'll take the shoes off again after 6 weeks as generally she copes fine but Spring is tricky.


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## Oberon (24 February 2012)

Naughty pics but couldn't resist....

From a US trimmer's album....


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## cptrayes (24 February 2012)

Clava said:



			He was concerned that the toe was very short, I did ask about the frog being in contact with the ground and he said that wouldn't be possibly...I think I'll take the shoes off again after 6 weeks as generally she copes fine but Spring is tricky.
		
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I'm puzzled how he thought leaving the heels too long would balance a short toe , and you probably are too I guess .


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## Clava (24 February 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I'm puzzled how he thought leaving the heels too long would balance a short toe , and you probably are too I guess .
		
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No idea, we didn't talk specifically about the heel height, I will ask next time, it seems more logical to reduce the heels if he feels the toe is short  Well, I will maintain her hi fibre diet and carry on treating for thrush and see how they go when they come off again as well as discussing the heel height.


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## A Guilding (24 February 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I completely agree, it's been quite surprising the number like it. The last photo posted is a good example, one branch much shorter than the other.
		
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I think pic 5 and 10 are the same photo, it took me a while to work out why it didnt look right. Heel height is ok, falls into the not causing a problem we call it the80/20, some times when I see the shoe  uneven at the back it could of maybe done with a bigger shoe.


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## A Guilding (24 February 2012)

Oberon said:



			Naughty pics but couldn't resist....

From a US trimmer's album....





Click to expand...

How are these relevent to  the thread?


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## Clava (24 February 2012)

A Guilding said:



			I think pic 5 and 10 are the same photo, it took me a while to work out why it didnt look right. Heel height is ok, falls into the not causing a problem we call it the80/20, some times when I see the shoe  uneven at the back it could of maybe done with a bigger shoe.
		
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Yes, sorry, I just noticed too, but couldn't edit it. Will find the correct photo.

here...right






left


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## Oberon (24 February 2012)

A Guilding said:



			How are these relevent to  the thread?
		
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OOps - sorry. I forgot that I have to ask your permission before posting on a thread


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## A Guilding (24 February 2012)

Oberon said:



			OOps - sorry. I forgot that I have to ask your permission before posting on a thread 
	
	
		
		
	


	




Click to expand...

Post away  just interested if this was what you considered good work, was it well shod well trimmed poorly looked after, is this what happens when you shoe horses? Im sure I could trawl the net and find equally poor management of feet that have never been shod, so what was your point?


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## Oberon (24 February 2012)

A Guilding said:



			Post away  just interested if this was what you considered good work, was it well shod well trimmed poorly looked after, is this what happens when you shoe horses? Im sure I could trawl the net and find equally poor management of feet that have never been shod, so what was your point?
		
Click to expand...

My point was that it was an amazing pic that made me gasp. Not any other comment than that.
I'm not comfortable to pass comment on people's work. So I won't.

In the previous 2 years I used to be able to post whatever I wanted, on whatever thread I wanted. 

Wonder when that changed?

Did I miss a memo?


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## A Guilding (24 February 2012)

Oberon said:



			My point was that it was an amazing pic that made me gasp. Not any other comment than that.
I'm not comfortable to pass comment on people's work. So I won't.

In the previous 2 years I used to be able to post whatever I wanted, on whatever thread I wanted. 

Wonder when that changed?

Did I miss a memo?
		
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Well the outcome was good the poor horse was made more comfortable.


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## cptrayes (24 February 2012)

Oberon said:



			My point was that it was an amazing pic that made me gasp. Not any other comment than that.
I'm not comfortable to pass comment on people's work. So I won't.

In the previous 2 years I used to be able to post whatever I wanted, on whatever thread I wanted. 

Wonder when that changed?

Did I miss a memo?
		
Click to expand...

Play nice now Oberon    You called them "naughty pics" when you posted them, you knew they didn't belong on a "good shoeing" thread.


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## ElvisandTilly (25 February 2012)

I have read these posts from page one right through and there was a picture of a hoof that the coronary band curved downwards at the heels and the event lines curved down too. I can't find the replies t this picture or the comments on the curved coronary band and event lines at the heels or rear quarters of the hoof. 

My horse has these curves as well as heels that are getting more and more contracted as the months go by with no solutions. I have to keep asking for his heels to be trimmed level as in balanced medially and laterally as sometime ne heel is left higher than the other. I have to request this at every shoeing. Is there a reason for leaving one heels higher than the other? Is there something else that a farrier looks at to balance up or should the heels be equal whatever else is going on it the hoof? 

What are the solutions for a contracted heel? Can it be resolved when wearing shoes? My farrier gives plenty of support in the heel with the length of the shoe and has corrected a too long toe that was causing stubbing anf tripping but now have contracted heels and this curve sorting. 

He did start leaving a wider shoe at the quarters and filed it in so angled towards the hof wall to help prevent the other foot catching but as his feet grew they grew down and over the filed shoe and the hoof wall was breaking up so now back to the shoe aligned with the hoof.

Sorry for all the questions! Just very interested in a cure.


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## A Guilding (25 February 2012)

Can you take pics of it.


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## ester (26 February 2012)

Frank got again shod the end of last week, so I thought I would add some update pics to this thread. Third time in bar shoes (12 weeks from first applications), diagnosis essentially djd/arthritis in coffin joint. I seemed to be a bit rubbish at getting the angles right for photos atm, all are of the LF, lame foot which def started off with worse angles/heels than the RF. Working on getting the heels better and easing the breakover. 

so this was a before pic (no shoe) 






after. 























He isn't quite right still though (have vids if anyone particularly wants to see how he moves!) so going to have another chat with vet.


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## ElvisandTilly (27 February 2012)

Will take pictures of the curve. It seems to be worse on one foot that has a crack down. The crack has always been there as it seems the coronary band has an old injury. The crack is a hairline crack that does not go internally. 

I will put pictures up then you'll be able to see better. 

Don't want a pulic slating of my farrier though as its not his work its a build up of years of previous farriers that have ended up with his feet like this. Current farrier has sorted the long toes that were causing tripping and now need to sort the other problems or they may not even be problems when you have cast your eyes over them!


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## Casey76 (28 February 2012)

I'll be brave   This is week 5 of a six week cycle, so Pinto is due to be reshod next week.  Also to note, the shoes (I only had time to take photos of one foot) were removes at the last shoeing

Pinto was reshod last August after being barefoot (farrier trim) for over 5 years at the vets recommendation after diagnosis of a spavin.  I hope to be able to take shoes off again this August after re-xraying to verify the joint has fused.

This is the left fore:
























I'm not saying this is an example of good farrier-ship, but my farrier is the best in the area.


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## A Guilding (1 March 2012)

Casey I used to spend my summers in Saverne when I was a boy is that near you?


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## Casey76 (1 March 2012)

Afraid not A Guilding.  Saverne is right at the top of Alsace (or just about), I'm right at the bottom, on top of the Swiss border


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## A Guilding (1 March 2012)

Casey76 said:



			Afraid not A Guilding.  Saverne is right at the top of Alsace (or just about), I'm right at the bottom, on top of the Swiss border 

Click to expand...

Twas a beutiful area  Your horses shoeing looks okay to return to topic.


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## cptrayes (2 March 2012)

Casey76 said:



			I'll be brave   This is week 5 of a six week cycle, so Pinto is due to be reshod next week.  Also to note, the shoes (I only had time to take photos of one foot) were removes at the last shoeing

Pinto was reshod last August after being barefoot (farrier trim) for over 5 years at the vets recommendation after diagnosis of a spavin.  I hope to be able to take shoes off again this August after re-xraying to verify the joint has fused.

This is the left fore:
























I'm not saying this is an example of good farrier-ship, but my farrier is the best in the area.  

Click to expand...

I think this is good shoeing but I am puzzled why your vet thought you should shoe for spavin. I have a barefoot horse currently with massive bone formation (think half an egg stuck to the inside of his hock). He has been lame one day in the four years that he's had them. Another horse I had with spavin worked through on a minimal amount of bute (1 a day for a 700 kilo horse). Both are able to build their feet to compensate for the hock issues depending on how much they affect them at the time. The imbalance that they create fro themselves is much more obvious in cold wet weather 

I predict that you'll be able to take him out of shoes without a problem when your vet "allows"


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## Casey76 (2 March 2012)

Actually Pinto only has shoes on the fronts because he was shod on the back. 

Haha, I don't dare to post photos of his back feet.  The shoeing is good, but the shoes look positively medieval.

I asked the vet at the time if he thought the shoes could come off again, and he said no... I plan to prove him wrong (*fingers crossed*)

I nearly cried when he said to shoe again.  Pinto has rock crushers, has always had great concavity front and back and nice wide frogs (even if they were trimmed every time my farrier got his rasp out), and has always stomped over our gravel yard and paths.

Apparently shoeing with high heels supports the hocks.  I don't know if it does, but Pinto has never need joint injections, or anything more than boswellia and a joint supplement.

As I wasn't around when he came in lame (I was on an extended business trip to Argentina), I don't know the exact circumstances of the lameness, but I have a sneaking suspicion it was caused by overzealous jumping by my then sharer.  When I got back and had the vet out for a second examination, Pinto was just short striding, but only just.  On xray, his lower hock joint was almost fused, suggesting he has actually had spavins for a long time, but there was now osteogenic activity to the side of the joint, which we think caused this current NQR-ness


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## Nickles1973 (7 March 2012)

Not necessarily good shoeing pics, but my tb has recently been diagnosed by x-ray with an imbalanced pedal bone in his ns front. This has led to him being shod with straight bar shoes on the vets recommendation and I'm interested in knowledgeable peoples opinions on the job done. Please excuse the apparent lack of photographic skill. I'm no David Bailey 
NS Front















OS Front
















Appologies also for the messy sticky look of the hair over his coronary band, I had been rubbing cornucrescine with a toothbrush.


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## Nickles1973 (7 March 2012)

Moorman, thank you for your reply. rest assured since reading a couple of threads on here I have ditched the cornucrescine and exchanged it for leaving the hooves "au natural" for the time being. With the exception of washing the worst of the mud off most evenings and leaving them to dry.
The imbalance was described by the vet as a slight medial imbalance which combined with an unsatisfactory shoeing and a heavy landing whist arsing about in the field had led to bruising. Xrays also showed evidence of a past abcess in the heel area which was suggested had also contributed to his heel being more colapsed/underrun. (hopefully I am describing accurately what I have been told) His frogs would hopefully usually look a little fuller but the vet had trimmed them a bit for the xrays.


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## sam1am (7 March 2012)

Brilliant thread! Very educational.
Would love some opinions on this horses feet and the job done on him today:
Unshod










Shod today:




















Sorry not great photos
Thanks in advance


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## freckles22uk (7 March 2012)

TigerTail said:



			Not helpful at all but I can't believe how weird shod feet look to me now! Not because of the individual farrierying
		
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yeh I though the same, mine have not had shoes on for 6 years now.. and I cant believe how strange they look...


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## lazybee (9 March 2012)

Thanks for the FdSc DipWCF insider knowledge. So much to think about now. A whole new area to explore more thoroughly. Myself, like most owners only know the basics. It really demonstrates the amount of training you guys go through and helps us appreciate some of the challenges you're up against. 

Thanks for taking the time and effort.


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## ktj1891 (10 March 2012)

Would love some feedback on my guys feet. Sorry only have front and side views. 

Farriers views would be great.

Front left










Front Right










Hind right










Hind left


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## Perissa (11 March 2012)

Am I allowed to post xrays taken at the vets or is there copyright on them?

If I am allowed I have xrays of my horse when he was in negative pedal bone rotation - if anyone would like to see them?  Not entirely relevant to a good shoeing picture post though....


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## ester (11 March 2012)

I would v much like to see them Perissa, I don't think there are any copyright issues people put pics of xrays up all the time including me (whose pedal bones were flat). 

Moorman I have now read your post three times and think I understand it..  I got most confused about the top of the wall being in direct contact with the ground thinking you chopped all the foot off !


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## ester (11 March 2012)

I might take you up on that option atm


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## traumaO (11 March 2012)

Hi, 

Sorry this is my first post on the forum but I was googling hooves and shoes and feet  can anyone on here tell me something about this mares hoof? 








from front:






She has been barefoot for a year but seem to be going backwards tbh.

to the left there's a wider bit (I'm not good with terminology, sorry) and if anyone could shed some light as to what it is/what causes it I'd be grateful!


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## traumaO (11 March 2012)

oh it didn't come up  take 2:


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## cptrayes (11 March 2012)

She's had a nasty abscess directly in the centre of the coronet which is an absolute shoo-in for a diagnosis of laminae death.  Is she footie? Has she been unsound?


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## cptrayes (11 March 2012)

ester said:



			I would v much like to see them Perissa, I don't think there are any copyright issues people put pics of xrays up all the time including me (whose pedal bones were flat). 

Moorman I have now read your post three times and think I understand it..  I got most confused about the top of the wall being in direct contact with the ground thinking you chopped all the foot off !
		
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Copyright belongs to the vet I'm afraid. Strictly, you should ask them. No-one ever does though


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## ester (11 March 2012)

obv I asked  what a suggestion


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## traumaO (11 March 2012)

cptrayes said:



			She's had a nasty abscess directly in the centre of the coronet which is an absolute shoo-in for a diagnosis of laminae death.  Is she footie? Has she been unsound?
		
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moorman said:



			You can see a deviation in the inner white line with some impaction ,which look like stones ect.
As for the flare on the med (inside) if it is for a reason to do with biomechanics  then it might only need moderate attention, but well worth keeping an eye on in case the flare also leads to separation.
The wall tissue looks in very good order and apart from the old damaged tissue that is growing down I would say you have the makings of a good foot there!
		
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Thanks for your responses. yes I've noticed that she is footie particularly over the last 2 weeks (she's not been ridden since last year, I've just noticed this walking her to and from field). This doesn't sound very good. I'm waiting for a farrier to come out and have a look, but he's not given me a date yet


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## cptrayes (11 March 2012)

I am very, very suspicious of a dead centre abscess like your horse has probably had to cause that hole near the top of the foot. The only time I have ever seen abscess exit wounds so spot on the centre line is as a result of lamina death from a laminitic episode. Lots of horse have a "signature foot" where it happens first.  If she was mine I would be extremely cautious as the spring grass arrives in force, as it is probably already what is causing her footiness.


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## cptrayes (12 March 2012)

It looks exactly like two of  mine. One was a full blown grass laminitic and the other a concussion laminitis from bolting on a road. Both blew right there, with a hole of that sort of size (which actually went from top to bottom - peroxide syringed in at the top came out of the white line at the toe). But as you say, photos can be very misleading, and a similar result can come of being trodden on at the coronet by the other foot or another horse, for example.


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## traumaO (12 March 2012)

I'm stumped. I've taken this photo this evening. Is it normal for hoof walls to heal so quickly? I didn't scrub the wall last night so did this evening and... I feel like I've gone mad. The photo I posted before was taken sunday morning.


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## cptrayes (12 March 2012)

...


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## cptrayes (12 March 2012)

traumaO said:



			from front:





!
		
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Those photos were taken a day apart?. The chips at the bottom can't have grown out in a day, have the feet been cut back? If that's definitelty the same foot then the "hole" must have been a trick of some mud on the hoof, holes can't heal like that.  Are you certain that's the same foot? The chips are similar but not the same and the later one looks more upright.


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## Clava (12 March 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Those photos were taken a day apart?. The chips at the bottom can't have grown out in a day, have the feet been cut back? If that's definitelty the same foot then the "hole" must have been a trick of some mud on the hoof, holes can't heal like that.  Are you certain that's the same foot? The chips are similar but not the same and the later one looks more upright.
		
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I think maybe some deceptive mud has made the difference.


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## LD&S (23 August 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Can youput up a post asking for opinions from barefooters, this is a shoes thread and most of the barefooters are probably not reading it anyway, and we don't want to defocus the thread from  being about good shoeing. Ta!
		
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I'm sure I'm not the only owner of barefoot horses that is following this thread with real interest and hopefully learning too as a lot of the information is relevant to any horse owner.


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## brookeallan (23 December 2012)

How can i upload photos from my phone?!


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## Chestnut mare (23 December 2012)

Get the photobucket app. Upload the photos. Copy the IMG code and paste on the post.


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## tallyho! (23 December 2012)

Can you upload them onto photobucket from your phone? If so, do that first and then you copy the "forum code" you see under it and copy and paste it to your post here.


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## christine48 (23 December 2012)

ChristmasPTrees said:



			Well there you go. Textbook. If I had to have studs on my horses then that's the kind of shoeing that I would want to see them have.   Length and breadth to support the heel, nicely set back toe to encourage breakover, and a real tidy job. I'm sure A Guilding wouldn't have posted them if he thought we were going to pull his boy to pieces 

A lot of people would be very concerned that the foot does not meet the shoe at the side. It's irrelevant. Many barefoot horses have feet which do not touch the ground on the sides, it's pefectly normal. So it's neither here nor there whether they touch the shoe there either.

A couple of questions AG, I think I can see rasp marks a very long way up the hoof wall. Am I mistaken or was there a reason for that (or did he just get a bit enthusiastic rasping the clenches flat?). And in the third shot it looks like he has done a lot of sole and frog sculpting. Is that just a trick of the light or was it necessary for some reason?  I am assuming in the last shot that it is a trick of the light that makes it look as if the left hand branch of the heel does not quite meet the end of the heel plane.
		
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He can shoe my horse any day!


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## brookeallan (23 December 2012)




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## brookeallan (23 December 2012)




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## brookeallan (23 December 2012)




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## brookeallan (23 December 2012)

Interested to know what people think of the above? My horse was nature balance, but kept flopping on his knees (not sure if coincidence) he seems better now, but shoe looks pretty close to the frog. Is that ok? Thanks


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## [100855] (22 March 2013)

Here's mine...


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