# Boxer dogs - tail docking



## BBH (25 January 2010)

Yesterday I saw two beautiful boxer dogs but they both had long tails and I didn't like them   
	
	
		
		
	


	





I much prefer the boxer with a docked tail as was my mums. The owner was saying they also preferred docked tails but its illegal here now and they would have to have bought in Ireland if they wanted a docked tail puppy.

I'm wondering if its because i'm not used to seeing them like that but imo it spoilt the look of the dogs.

Anyone else got a boxer with a tail and do you get used to it.


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## Bossdog (25 January 2010)

I peronsally love them with tails, makes them look really cheeky but then I saw a dobe with a tail yesterday and it looked very strange!!  I once read an interesting article about a guy who was breeding bob tailed Boxers but he had done a cross with a corgi generations ago so they obviously weren't prebred but he did create a dog that looked like a Boxer with a short tail.... will see if I can find it if anyone is interested.


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## Bossdog (25 January 2010)

That was easy, very interesting article, shame they had to produce so many pups, not exactly setting a good example!!

(eta would like to add that I do NOT condone this, I just think it's interesting!)

(also eta I forgot the link! http://www.steynmere.com/ARTICLES1.html


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## sue6107 (25 January 2010)

My boxer Wesley has a tail and I think he looks great.  There tails are lovely, his has a lovely curl at the end.   Having had a boxer before with a docked tail, I wasn't sure at first but no I quite like them with tails.


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## CorvusCorax (25 January 2010)

Bossdog the OES people wanted to breed with Australian Shepherds to make a natural bobtail Bobtail 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 but agree, what a shocking overproduction of puppies in the interim generations and what a closed gene pool.....

Out of interest, read the Kennel Gazette, there are a large number of showline boxers who seem to be having unfortunate accidents, resulting in their owners having to apply for a docking permit


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## Bossdog (25 January 2010)

Just been having another read through the article, he has shown and won with his KC reg bobtails, I don't know enough about the KC system to understand how, I wouldn't have thought they were classed as pure bred?


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## CorvusCorax (25 January 2010)

I wouldn't say that was possible under KC regulations, did he show them in the UK? It was probably at exemption level or outside of KC rules.
Is he calling them Bobtails? Because the Old English Sheepdog people would not be happy about that


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## Spudlet (25 January 2010)

QR To be honest I used to think spaniels looked odd with tails but I wouldn't change Henry now - I love that he has his tail. It's different if there is a proper reason for docking (eg working dogs, to avoid injury) but I don't agree with docking just for aesthetics.

I'm sure that people used to find the sight of horses with undocked tails odd but we seem to have become used to that now...


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## CorvusCorax (25 January 2010)

Horses are still docked and have their forelocks shaved in some parts of Spain - it does look very severe, you're right, maybe one day we will feel the same about dogs.
I know seeing cropped ears makes me wince!


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## Bossdog (25 January 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't say that was possible under KC regulations, did he show them in the UK? It was probably at exemption level or outside of KC rules.
Is he calling them Bobtails? Because the Old English Sheepdog people would not be happy about that 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.steynmere.com/BOBTAILS.html


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## CorvusCorax (25 January 2010)

FIIIIGGHHT!!!!!


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## FestiveSpirit (25 January 2010)

I must admit I loathe boxers with tails, they look horrible IMHO  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 Same goes for Dobermanns  
	
	
		
		
	


	





But I know that it is deemed cruel to dock a dog now  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 so wont bother getting into that debate again


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## Vizslak (25 January 2010)

I certainly have got used to seeing undocked tails in both of my breeds and never thought I would. My male parson was born days after the ban and has a full tail, I used to hate it but now think he would look very odd docked! He has a very nice straight tail for a terrier as well, it doesn't curl over his back and would never affect him working. My female parson is the odd one out in our family now being the only one docked, equally she would look strange to me with a tail! Flora is our first undocked Vizsla and I got used to that really quickly although I would still prefer she didnt have it as it is broken on the end but shes never split it. The show world has helped with me accepting the look of a vizz with a tail as all the young dogs coming up have them so it doesn't look out of place. 
I do have to admit to thinking that boxers, dobes, rotties and other dogs previously docked very short do look odd as anything with full tails! I have found that in general dogs like this that in recent history have only been docked for aesthetic reasons and not working reasons are harder to get used to with tails, the working gundog breeds I've found much easier to get used to, but maybe thats because I see more of them. 
Wow that was a long old nonsensical ramble from me for a monday morning...I do apologise!! 
	
	
		
		
	


	





eta; the bobtail boxers are interesting, thanks for posting bossdog.


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## Annette4 (25 January 2010)

I'm not normally bothered about docked tails but a breeder at Crufts made a very vaild point about Corgis. The are mainly seperated by the fact one has a tail and one doesn't. A lot of Pembrokes are born with half tails and unless they really condese the gene pool your going to end up with a lot of Pembrokes that aren't wanted for showing/breeding. They're an unpopular breed as it is so you can't really afford that kind of a knock on. Also they may end up as one breed again if they both have tails


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## marmalade76 (25 January 2010)

Personally, I prefer dogs with tails as I don't like to see their a-holes! My Dad has dobermanns, both docked.

I can see why corgis are not popular, my nan had one and it put me off ever having one myself.


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## CorvusCorax (25 January 2010)

But a lot of those breeds carry their tails high, so you can see their bums anyway


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## rosie fronfelen (25 January 2010)

i had 2 boxers, both docked. i cant stand seeing these breeds which are used to having docked tails now having to be docked. we "tail" the lambs when they are a few weeks old, apart from the welsh, so wheres the difference? EU and Defra interference yet again!!


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## Jojo_Pea4 (25 January 2010)

I have a boxer and really struggle with the thought of him having a tail. Its the one breed that I think look strange with a tail. But its just personal preference for me.


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## Tinkerbee (25 January 2010)

I am not a fan of undocked terriers at all (well the ones that are usually docked)
One of my grans dog has a horrid long wispy tail and I think she looks horrendous 
	
	
		
		
	


	





Never seen an undocked boxer etc but don't think I'd like those either.

Cropped ears turn my stomach though.


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## kirstyhen (25 January 2010)

Well everyone knows how anti-docking I am...


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## prosefullstop (25 January 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
Horses are still docked and have their forelocks shaved in some parts of Spain - it does look very severe, you're right, maybe one day we will feel the same about dogs.
I know seeing cropped ears makes me wince! 

[/ QUOTE ]

I saw a docked horse in the juniors' class at this year's Hampton Classic. Looked most strange. And I hate to see docked ears on dogs, especially Boxers.


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## frankie7 (25 January 2010)

sorry to hijack, but why would you dock a horses tail?  i can see why for the cart horses so it does not get trapped but why for a "regualr" horse?  (note - i know nothing about horses so sorry if it is a silly question!)


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## blackcob (25 January 2010)

It may well have been paralysed or otherwise damaged in an accident - I've heard horror stories of horses losing tails to too-tight bandages, though I'm not sure how much truth is in them!

I must admit to admiring some of the docked cobs in my Welsh Cob book, then realised what I was doing and felt a bit disgusted with myself. 
	
	
		
		
	


	





I saw my first undocked boxer just the other day and I must say I didn't really like the look either, they seem to have such thin whippy tails for a big dog. On the other hand the few undocked rotties that I've seen have looked all the better for having a tail, theirs seems to be much shorter and sturdier and suits the look of the dog. I'm not sure I have an opinion on terriers, the two that I've dealt with personally both had tails but they weren't used for working or indeed from working stock.


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## prosefullstop (25 January 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
sorry to hijack, but why would you dock a horses tail?  i can see why for the cart horses so it does not get trapped but why for a "regualr" horse?  (note - i know nothing about horses so sorry if it is a silly question!) 

[/ QUOTE ]

I have no idea. It was the only horse I saw all day that was docked, so maybe it was imported, or maybe it was due to a medical condition.


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## CorvusCorax (25 January 2010)

In the place I was in Spain, they shave the forelocks and then put on bridles with a fly fringe 
	
	
		
		
	


	




The man we rode out with had an amazing stallion that he used to bullfight on, I am not sure if that has anything to do with it?


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## Stinkbomb (25 January 2010)

I have an undocked boxer  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 i do much prefer them without and if i had a choice Alf's would def have gone!! he can clear a full coffee table if he wants! The problem with boxers is they are so excitable so the tail is constantly going and with some force!!!


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## FinnishLapphund (25 January 2010)

I prefer dogs with natural tails, already when I begun to look through breed books before I bought my first dog, on my "list of wishes", I had written down that I preferred breeds with undocked tails. Not as if it was the most important point but more like that, if the choice was between a docked breed and an undocked breed, I would choose the one with a natural tail.   










There has been quite some talk through the years about perhaps crossing e.g. Doberman with Smålandsstövare ( Image from Wikipedia of a Smålandsstövare ), a Swedish hunting dog with somewhat similar looks to Dobermans but with a natural short tail. 

Basically I think there has been talk about crossing almost any docked breed with Västgötaspets (Swedish Vallhund), Pembroke Welsh Corgi and other breeds carrying the gene for natural short tails...





Actually we've had a docking ban since 1989 and we did go through the unusual increase in tail damages ending up in docked tails. Strangely enough, suddenly many dogs, especially Rottweilers and Dobermans, got the urge to run around in low and thorny bushes and stand in doorways just as the door shut... 
	
	
		
		
	


	





So since 1997 we have a specific rule saying that _no_ Rottweiler or Doberman born in Sweden from 1 January 1997 and later and registered in SKK, are allowed to be shown docked on a SKK dog show, regardless of the reason for the docking.  




Then suddenly many breeders, of especially Rottweilers and Dobermans, decided to let their brood bitch give birth to her puppies in another country, peculiarly enough only in countries without a docking ban... 
	
	
		
		
	


	





Some years later, it came a rule saying that if the owner of the brood bitch lives in Sweden, it doesn't matter which country the bitch is in when she has the litter, the puppies must be undocked to be SKK registered.     





And then there was only a few complaints left to deal with. One was from breeders of previously docked breeds, that ever since the first docking ban came 1989, have said that there is not much point in showing a dog with undocked tail, especially if the judge is from a country without a docking ban, because almost always/usually, if there is as much as one imported dog with a docked tail in the class, it wins. 

Which probably is/was not helped by the "sudden" amount of imported dogs with Swedish owners, competing in our show rings.  
	
	
		
		
	


	





Unscientifically I have randomly picked 2 Swedish dog shows (it was the two first older catalogues, from two different years, that I found and I have no idea who won) and simply looked at were the Dobermans came from. 
Show 1, 
41 Dobermans born in Sweden.
30 Dobermans born in other countries. 10 in Russia, 8 in Serbia, 3 in Ukraine, 2 each in Italy and Latvia, 1 each in Belgium, Bulgaria, Canada, Finland and Norway.  

Show 2,
18 Dobermans born in Sweden. 
18 Dobermans born in other countries. 6 in Russia, 5 in Serbia, 2 in Norway and 1 each in Denmark, Finland, France, Italy and Yugoslavia.


Obviously they must breed Dobermans of a very good quality in Russia and Serbia, since we seem to import quite a few from there!  
For all I know, _that could very well be a true statement,_ maybe it is just a coincidence that we're importing from countries like Russia, that does not have a tail docking ban and Serbia, that from what I've heard, it doesn't matter if their kennel club have a ban or not, because if the breeder wants it, they get it done. 












The latest SKK rule states that dogs born from 1 January 2008 or later, that is Tail docked or Ear cropped, are not entitled to participate in a SKK dog show, regardless of whether the dog is born in a country that allows such docking or cropping or if it was done for health reasons on a dog born in Sweden.
The only exceptions is a few breeds in the Gun dog group. (I'm sorry The Henmeister but I support a complete ban.)
If you have an imported and legally docked e.g. Rottweiler, born after 1 January 2008, it is entitled to at on one occasion, be shown outside competition and get a written critique with the judge's opinion. 


Somehow I doubt it is the last rule change...

*sigh*


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## PapaFrita (25 January 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
It may well have been paralysed or otherwise damaged in an accident - I've heard horror stories of horses losing tails to too-tight bandages, though I'm not sure how much truth is in them!


[/ QUOTE ]
I've heard of this too. I go round the stables taking tail bandages off after shows because the grooms just can't be arsed


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## FinnishLapphund (25 January 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
I must admit I loathe boxers with tails, they look horrible IMHO  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 Same goes for Dobermanns  
	
	
		
		
	


	





But I know that it is deemed cruel to dock a dog now  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 so wont bother getting into that debate again  
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]


I know you said you didn't want a debate but 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 lets say that I *hypothetically* thinks that all dogs with four legs looks horrible. Since they only need three to walk and run, I suggest we begin docking one leg on every dog, regardless of breed...




Luckily we don't have to agree about everything. Personally I think Boxers, Dobermans and Rottweilers etc. looks so much better with their natural tail!


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## FestiveSpirit (25 January 2010)

My little black greyhound Ellen had three legs, and she was just as gorgeous and lovely as a dog with four legs  
	
	
		
		
	


	




  She was also as fast and as active...


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## mainpower (25 January 2010)

My friend has a dog with NO legs..... he's called Cigarette 'cos every night she takes him out for a drag!!


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## FestiveSpirit (25 January 2010)

You sick sick woman that is SO not funny


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## mainpower (25 January 2010)

I'm warped....


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## FestiveSpirit (25 January 2010)

You are definitely not that warped, you have wonderful taste in dogs


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## FinnishLapphund (25 January 2010)

I remembered a reply from you about that you have had a tripod and that she was fully okay with only three legs. 
	
	
		
		
	


	












  Since you say she was just as fast and active, why does your current dogs have four legs? After all it would mean one less leg to feel cold and frozen in and you would only need to put on three dog boots each, to keep their paws dry and warm...   




For those who haven't read my replies on previous threads on the subject, I don't think the breeders of e.g. German Wirehaired Pointer should be allowed to continue to show or compete with their, due to health reasons, docked dogs. 

As an example: 
Let us say that someone have a working German Shepherd Dog that is excellent on tracking and catching bad people but he has really thin and sensitive skin under his paws, so they constantly becomes sore and they bleed and it is really painful for him, would you have no reservations against using that dog in breeding?
I hope you do.

If instead someone has a working German Wirehaired Pointer that is great at hunting but his tail constantly becomes sore and it bleed and it is really painful for him, to the point where it needs to be amputated due to health reasons, why should that dog be more suitable to use in breeding than the GSD in the example above?  

Why are breeders of some breeds allowed to wear blinders, cut off the part that causes problem and again and again brush their problem in under the carpet?


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## star (25 January 2010)

i have one boxer with a tail and one without and the one who has a tail is the most beautiful Boxer I've ever seen - she is just gorgeous and her tail is so much of her character.  When you talk to her she just flicks the very end of it - you wouldn't even see this if she had been docked.  I dont think it looks wrong at all.  Why on earth should we mutilate a dog just because it looks like what we think it should?  I am not against docking true working dogs who get their tails into trouble but I seriously object to docking dogs for the hell of it.


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## marmalade76 (26 January 2010)

I agree, it is mutilation for cosmetic reasons, most dogs are not used for working. I do not agree with the claim that working dogs are at such high risk of damaging their tails. For example, foxhounds are a breed that are almost exclusively used to work (ie there are very few that are kept as pets), yet they are not docked. Yes, I have seen a few that have had to have their tails removed, but considering the number of foxhounds I have seen, this is a very small proportion indeed.

I don't feel that it can be compared to removing the tails of lambs, this is not done because some people think it looks nice.


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## Stinkbomb (26 January 2010)

OMG Star id swear your boxer is a clone of mine!! Even to the little bit of white on her neck!!!


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## kirstyhen (26 January 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
 I do not agree with the claim that working dogs are at such high risk of damaging their tails. For example, foxhounds are a breed that are almost exclusively used to work (ie there are very few that are kept as pets), yet they are not docked. Yes, I have seen a few that have had to have their tails removed, but considering the number of foxhounds I have seen, this is a very small proportion indeed.


[/ QUOTE ]

Working dogs such as Spaniels are docked because they enter thick cover. Trust me when I say that pretty much every Undocked Spaniel that is worked properly will split it's tail, which will then continue to split and end up red raw and painful. It's not just 'cos we fancy chopping puppies tails off for kicks! 
	
	
		
		
	


	




Labs, etc (and Hounds, but I am mainly talking about Gundogs) do NOT enter the cover the same way as a Spaniel. They may work cover and you may find some that work the cover particularly hard for their breed, however a Spaniel, will go through anything, the thickest brambles, hedgerows, etc etc. Spaniels rarely go over anything. Whilst they are in the cover they hunt frantically and wag their tails hard constantly. Hence their tails being ripped and hence why people who work their dogs preferring the seconds/minutes/whatever of pain that a Pup may experiance whilst being docked, than the pain of a damaged tail, an operation and a lengthy recovery. 

I can't speak for HPRs and Terriers as I have no experiance of them, but I would wager they are the same.


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## star (26 January 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
OMG Star id swear your boxer is a clone of mine!! Even to the little bit of white on her neck!!!







[/ QUOTE ]

aw 
	
	
		
		
	


	




  she's lovely.  i just love the little white tips on their tails too.


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## Sooty (27 January 2010)

I find it so hard to reply to these threads calmly. Perhaps everyone who thinks a dog looks 'better' with the end of its spine removed would like to see if it enhances their own appearance to remove the odd finger? A tail is not an ornament, it is there for a purpose.


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## aussie rider (21 January 2011)

Here are my beauties

Boston












Boston and Kasper.- dont have any tail shots of the little one






Love tails

AR


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## SamanthaG (21 January 2011)

You do get used to it, the docking ban is still new in the UK, my Boxers all have tails and wow do they hurt when you get whipped, but no matter what the breed if you love them for their personality then what difference does a tail make. There isnt a week that goes by when I dont say bloody tails as they are great for swishing a wine glass from a table! But I still love my lot. When we show it is easier with out a tail but we are getting the hang of it, and our latest show pup has a lovely high tail set and has been taught to carry it high.


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## EAST KENT (21 January 2011)

rosiefronfelen said:



			i had 2 boxers, both docked. i cant stand seeing these breeds which are used to having docked tails now having to be docked. we "tail" the lambs when they are a few weeks old, apart from the welsh, so wheres the difference? EU and Defra interference yet again!!
		
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The voice of sanity!! Quite why these busibodies interfere with what they know nothing about astounds me.Cannot abide all these ruined breeds myself ,and would`nt ever own one. Meanwhile it is perfectly ok (NOT) to castrate piglets,lambs etc without anaesthetic.Talk about double standards!!
As someone who has in fact rung lambs AND docked puppies..I can tell you the lambs suffer far far more,being more up and aware than a two day old whelp.
  In the case of OES ,as a dog groomer, I can tell you that docking is essential for welfare grounds.Good Lord,if your usual owner cannot keep a DOCKED bum free of "clat" and maggot ..what hope for a tailed one?


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## SusieT (21 January 2011)

but isn't it interestin East Kent, many posters claim lambs don't feel a thing or only  a pinch when docked, whereas any I've done/seen done have looked unimpressed/sore for at least an hour or more and you indeed say they are definitely suffering more than a pup-implying they do suffer..and these same posters often claim pups don't notice either. 
Re: aesthetic docking-if we consider it cruel, why are there such advocates of working docking saying its not actually painful or cruel to do to their puppies for the 'advantages' later on of not splitting their tails? (I won't repeat my opinion on that bit of unproven claim)


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## 3DE (21 January 2011)

Here's my experience of it.

I was delighted when they introduced the ban - then I got a short haired dog with a long tail and soon changed my mind. As well as REALLY hurting when they get you round the back of the legs mid wag, it only took 11 months for my pup to split his tail to the point it wouldn't heal. 8 months later he was docked.

Long haired dogs - no problems! Spnagles have the fur to cushion their tail to some degree. Short haired dogs find it very easy to split theirs. My boy split his tail simply by wagging it and hitting the wall  8 months later it still hadn't healed - we even tried strapping it to his leg so he wouldn't wag and reopen the wound...

So basically - lots of rules are introduced by people with good intentions but without sufficient knowledge to provide an informed decision. Eventually this crazy rule will be revoked - it already has been for working dogs.

My boy before













Rudder 







Tail off 







Far less traumatic to have this don't as a pup with a little local anaesthetic. My boy had to have a general and his heart stopped twice while under 







Now













And he can now go through gorse bushes without me worrying about him getting ripped to pieces


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## chessy (21 January 2011)

Another boxer fan here!

My first boxer, Spike, had a docked tail (done as a pup). Pic:






Never had any issues with it and he was happy enough! I do miss him 


But our current boxer, Punch, has a tail and it's very cute, despite knocking over things and whipping my legs, he's not injured it. It curls up when he's very happy, we call him "scorpion tail", lol. And I love the white bit on the end, looks like a Mr Whippy ice cream!








So when it comes to the "tail" debate, I'm unsure which side I'm on. I've had dogs with both docked and undocked, and didn't have any issues with either.


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## SusieT (21 January 2011)

Query, what woul the view be of all dogs being illegal to be docked until they are of an age to be neutered? At 6 months if your particular dog is having these massive split tail problems, get it surgically docked then? At that age it is considered reasonable to remove other organs causing potential health problems (testicles) so only makes sense that a 'necessary' operation could be done then (regardless of whether or not the dog is being neutered simultaneously)


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## 3DE (21 January 2011)

SusieT said:



			Query, what woul the view be of all dogs being illegal to be docked until they are of an age to be neutered? At 6 months if your particular dog is having these massive split tail problems, get it surgically docked then? At that age it is considered reasonable to remove other organs causing potential health problems (testicles) so only makes sense that a 'necessary' operation could be done then (regardless of whether or not the dog is being neutered simultaneously)
		
Click to expand...

What about for dogs not being neutered, or for dogs that have already been neutered?

I sometimes wonder why pups can't be neutered or docked like lambs with elastic bands - when I've done it the lams don't show pain at all.


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## SusieT (21 January 2011)

See the end of my post-its not neccesarily when its being neutered, more that at that age it is considered appropriate for them to undergo the GA etc. so it's not neccessarily that they are being neutered a well.
The elastic band method the lambs definitely to me showed pain, clamping their tail, walking awkwardly. I have not seen them being neutered with rings, and would not want to.


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## ADA (21 January 2011)

EAST KENT said:



			Quite why these busibodies interfere with what they know nothing about astounds me.Cannot abide all these ruined breeds myself ,and would`nt ever own one. Meanwhile it is perfectly ok (NOT) to castrate piglets,lambs etc without anaesthetic.Talk about double standards!!
As someone who has in fact rung lambs AND docked puppies..I can tell you the lambs suffer far far more,being more up and aware than a two day old whelp.
  In the case of OES ,as a dog groomer, I can tell you that docking is essential for welfare grounds.Good Lord,if your usual owner cannot keep a DOCKED bum free of "clat" and maggot ..what hope for a tailed one?

Click to expand...

"ruined breeds" - by that I expect you to mean health, or skeletal malformations etc. created by breeders who should know better.  I do think to claim that busybodies know nothing about dogs and dog breeding needs re-tracting unless you are putting forward substantial evidence to back up the statement.  It is an unfortunate fact that in this country our meat trade is "factory" breeding and animal husbandry is not as it was when shepherds looked after their flocks!   Some hill flocks are not docked.  Dog breeders/owners (and I exclude puppy farmers)  are expected (as I think most would agree) to pay attention to the welfare of their dogs and that includes grooming, health, hygiene, exercise, feeding and watering.  Sometimes it is necessary to pass laws and make regulations to bring this to pass.  
Docked OES are docked so short (bobtailed) that it interferes with their rectal muscles which atrophy causing poor faeces formation.  This can also lead to urinary incontinence.  An OES with a tail has far less of a problem as the tail jerks upwards as the dog defaecates.  However a dog's diet also plays an important part and if the food is not home prepared it is likely that some of the proprietary brands with "animal derivatives...!!" may be not in the dog's best dietary interests.  Old English with tails are no different from the undocked Bearded Collie, Komondor, Puli, Owcharka, Polish LS etc.  With any such breed the onus is on the owner not to neglect the needs of their dog.
Tail set, tail length and movement  are other important issues which breeders should be taking into account when selecting dogs for breeding.  They are doing this successfully in Scandinavia.  An example would be to breed out the Spaniel rotating movement.  Field Spaniels have had a longer tail dock than their show counterparts as they need their tail in order to be seen by the shooter in the undergrowth.    The problem of tail types comes with cross breeds and mongrels.
A dog tail has been referred to as a whip -  similar to that used on a horse? - for those who don't enjoy the experience surely they move!   A dog confined to a small space with hard objects is likely to get injury since before domestication they would live in open spaces and earth dens.
The Painted Dogs in Africa breed and hunt through horrendous thorn tree territory but it is rare to see tail injuries,  although leg injuries noted.


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## 3DE (21 January 2011)

ADA said:



			The Painted Dogs in Africa breed and hunt through horrendous thorn tree territory but it is rare to see tail injuries,  although leg injuries noted.
		
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Maybe because they get infected and they die?


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## EAST KENT (21 January 2011)

Ah well,if a ram lamb gets unlucky enough to be elastrated on his tail AND his testicles he actually will lie down in pain for half an hour,frankly horrible.They must know something is up,cos when you get `em dangling between your knees to find the target they are pretty clever and sort of suck in their testicles a bit sharpish.I hated doing it!
  Puppies,however ,two days old and I used to leave them in the nest sucking on Mum and just quickly snip and cauterize,Mum never even looked round ..and I am sure she would have noticed any stressy puppies .Not crel in my opinion and experience.


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## competitiondiva (21 January 2011)

BBH said:



			Yesterday I saw two beautiful boxer dogs but they both had long tails and I didn't like them   
	
	
		
		
	


	





I much prefer the boxer with a docked tail as was my mums. The owner was saying they also preferred docked tails but its illegal here now and they would have to have bought in Ireland if they wanted a docked tail puppy.

I'm wondering if its because i'm not used to seeing them like that but imo it spoilt the look of the dogs.

Anyone else got a boxer with a tail and do you get used to it.
		
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1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 BREATHE!!..........................................................

I will just say this, how would you feel if your mother decided at birth that you would look nicer without your ears??????  

The docking issue is one thing when you are talking about health reasons due to working dogs etc.... I can respect this arguement on both sides, but just for aesthertical reasons????  Do you support great danes etc in america being ear cropped?????

I'm sorry but I feel people who want to change the way a dog looks by having something removed just because they like it, really should be looking at a different breed of dog...................... (or no dog!!!!)


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## EAST KENT (21 January 2011)

Ah yes..OES with tails;well I groomed one of those ,it belonged to an ordinary family .They wanted it groomed out,but doing two square inches took thirty minutes ,they are big dogs and no one really wants to pay for two days of groomers time.SO ,we clipped it,my trusty Stablemate clippers are powerful enough to get under the matted fleece and keep mowing.Usually I start off just behind the ears,it was only as I started down it`s hind leg that I realised it did have a tail.That was stuck fast with matted hair and dried faeces down the back of the leg.
  That coat in the average busy family is bad enough,it definitely is a welfare issue if it also has a tail.
   It is exactly the same issue with sheep,fly strike is`nt pleasant,but at least good farmers do de clatt  and clip around the bottom in spring.


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## Alec Swan (21 January 2011)

ADA said:



			"ruined breeds" -.......  It is an unfortunate fact that in this country our meat trade is "factory" breeding and animal husbandry is not as it was when shepherds looked after their flocks!   Some hill flocks are not docked........  

An example would be to breed out the Spaniel rotating movement.  Field Spaniels have had a longer tail dock than their show counterparts as they need their tail in order to be seen by the shooter in the undergrowth........

The Painted Dogs in Africa breed and hunt through horrendous thorn tree territory but it is rare to see tail injuries,  although leg injuries noted.
		
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ADA,  an interesting response,  but there are some aspects of your letter which I would have serious problems with.  If you'll allow me,  I'll deal with them as I've quoted the above paragraphs.

Para 1.  Shepherds still tend their flocks,  and I'm one of them.  The reason for not docking the hill breeds is because the ewes with a docked tail,  and importantly,  considering the prevailing weather conditions,  will be far LESS likely to contract mastitis,  one of the singularly most common reasons for the culling of otherwise useful ewes.  

The other reason for "tailing" lambs,  is that they will need to get a degree of finish on them.  Feeding high protein concentrates will encourage a liquid bottom.  

Para 2.  I really don't understand what a "rotating movement" is,  perhaps you could explain that one to me.  The point which you've raised about Field Spaniels,  would apply to all spaniels,  except that it's complete nonsense.  Fads,  or fashions perhaps,  would hope that a spaniel has a white "flash" at the end of its tail.  The following shooter,  would be very well aware of the dog which is before him,  without the need for a white tip to the tail.

Para 3.  "The Painted Dogs in Africa",  do not have the same style or movement of a spaniel.  They don't need a docked tail.  Spaniels do.

Alec.


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## gemin1eye (21 January 2011)

Working dogs should be docked to prevent injuries (I don't just mean working breeds, I mean spaniels that are put to work). Pet dogs, regardless of breed, should not be docked unless its a health issue. Whether the pup feels it or not when you dock it, the cruelty is the fact that you are depriving the animal of a necessary part of its anatomy just because YOU think it looks better. Boxers with tails are much nicer to look at than those without imo. 

You can't compare tailing a lamb for real health reasons to docking a dog for aesthetic reasons


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## 3DE (21 January 2011)

EAST KENT said:



			Ah well,if a ram lamb gets unlucky enough to be elastrated on his tail AND his testicles he actually will lie down in pain for half an hour,frankly horrible.They must know something is up,cos when you get `em dangling between your knees to find the target they are pretty clever and sort of suck in their testicles a bit sharpish.I hated doing it!
		
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You can't have done it very well - none of the thousands of lambs I have docked/castrated have ever shown any sign of pain. It should be done by people who know what they are doing not have-a-gos


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## soloabe (21 January 2011)

3DE said:



			You can't have done it very well - none of the thousands of lambs I have docked/castrated have ever shown any sign of pain. It should be done by people who know what they are doing not have-a-gos 

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oooo look who's talking.
My uncle has farmed sheep for 50 years and even he will tell you that lambs feel pain when they are banded.

Tie a rubber band around your finger and leave it on and tell me it doesn't hurt.


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## SusieT (22 January 2011)

East Kent-That's the families fault not the tails.. Only get a dog you can cope with? That's not actually uncommon with rabbit and cats either, to have faeces and coat problems, rabbits can get it very bad and they don't have a tail..It's an owner problem for not picking it up.
 So uh.. I'm curious, what's the difference between someone who manages to ring a lamb 'non painfully' and painfully 3DE? Exactly what wonderous technique does your uncle have as I would love to know? It's still cutting the blood supply etc. off which as we all know is painful, excrutiatingly so when we do it to ourselves? There really isn't much variation you can do either.. It's ring on.. and uh..that's it really?


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## EAST KENT (22 January 2011)

There is no painless technique ,that is a smokescreen;perhaps you did`nt bother to watch once the deed was done! I,however,care a great deal about all my animals and care if they have pain inflicted on them! If you are doing a big flock ..well there would`nt be the time to bother to look would there?As for it being the OES owner`s fault,agree,but your average owner is not a groomer ,making the breed unsuitable for anyone but a caring and diligent keeper. The majority of families fall well below that level, so it falls to a groomer,if the dog gets lucky,to clip out the  clat,mats and  (yes!!) MAGGOTS.


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## ChesnutsRoasting (22 January 2011)

East Kent - I concur Having working in MILs poodle parlour, I have come to the conclusion that your average dog owner doesn 't know a dogs arse from its elbow and is too damn lazy to pick up a brush or wash its backside off!


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## 3DE (22 January 2011)

EAST KENT said:



			There is no painless technique ,that is a smokescreen;perhaps you did`nt bother to watch once the deed was done! I,however,care a great deal about all my animals and care if they have pain inflicted on them! If you are doing a big flock ..well there would`nt be the time to bother to look would there?
		
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Time - yes you would notice. Even with a large flock we have a duty of care to our animals.

As for the technique - it is a case of knowing the anatomy of the nervous system of the lambs. If the ring is placed on the correct part of the tail it is away from the major nerves (a balance between too long a tail and too short and causing pain). For the gonads - there is also an area where the ball sack narrows and pain is minimal (I'm not saying it doesn't hurt at all but it certainly doesn't cause them to not be able to walk). Too far to the body and it nips, too close to the epididymis and testes and pain is caused.

Time is also a factor - the banding should not be done any later than 48 hours old. This is long enough for the lamb to recover from the trauma of birth but short enough of a time for the endorphins and seratonin produced by the mother during labour to still be present. It is practice by some farmers to band at 7 days before turnout to pasture - at this age the lambs will undoubtedly feel pain as the pain killing endorphins will have subsided.

Again I would like to add that anyone causing pain with this technique has either poor technique or poor training and shouldn't be practicing. None of the lambs I have ever banded have shown any signs like clamping of the tail or being unable to walk - those are signs of major nerves being affected (poor technique).

When lambing season arrives I will video my technique to show how little my lambs respond to the procedure.

FWIW we don't band ewe lambs tails as the tail prevents wind burn on the udders in our cold climate up here. They do however need their bums clipping at least once during fattening and also prior to market. Tups get double banded though.

Edit - I've looked for videos online and in the two I found the lambs are docked too high up the tail and at too old an age...


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## SusieT (22 January 2011)

Contradicting yourself
-none of the thousands of lambs I have docked/castrated have ever shown any sign of pain
then 
-pain is minimal (I'm not saying it doesn't hurt at all
Perhaps a diagram is needed, as I have not seen any difference in where it is placed, short enough that it is effective as a method and long enough to still cover the genital region, all done within a day or so of birth.
I look forward to your video, It's not someting I'm involved in currently otherwise I would do likewise, but if you are able to do it painlessly, I will be impressed!


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## 3DE (22 January 2011)

SusieT said:



			Contradicting yourself
-none of the thousands of lambs I have docked/castrated have ever shown any sign of pain
then 
-pain is minimal (I'm not saying it doesn't hurt at all
		
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I'm not contradicting myself. Pain is minimal - I conclude this as none of the lambs have ever shown any signs of pain. I never said it was pain free - that would be a claim that isn't true. I simply said the signs that another member mentioned are signs of pain that my lambs have never exhibited. They are signs of severe pain which indicates some problem with the process. Lambs I have banded have carried along with their normal business as normal as soon as it has been done.

I raised this as puppy docking with a pair of scissors (common practice) is far from pain free - the band method would hurt less and leave less side effects.

The vid won't be available until the end of March/beginning of April which is when our ewes start to drop.


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## Alec Swan (22 January 2011)

SusieT,

were I in your shoes,  I would think first before arguing with 3DE.  I haven't a clue who they are,  but by the sound of it,  they are highly experienced.

Those who care for sheep,  in large numbers,  take a great deal of pride,  in their welfare.  Care for the individual,  and you care for the whole flock.  

Sadly,  there tends to be a better standard of management by the person who keeps 5000 ewes,  than by the person who keeps 5.  It's all a matter of "experience".

Alec.


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