# Shame on you H&H!



## Over2You (18 March 2010)

For celebrating the performances of Katie Walsh and Nina Carberry (see http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/competitionnews/395/296051.html). How can being banned for excessive use of the whip be seen as a wonderful achievement?

The mind well and truly boggles.


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## Achinghips (18 March 2010)

Where's the being banned article?


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## Achinghips (18 March 2010)

Hmm.. just found this
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2010/mar/18/katie-walsh-cheltenham-festival-whip-ban

and good on you Over2You for alerting us.


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## Amymay (18 March 2010)

Ban the whip!


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## Ignition (18 March 2010)

oh please, how pathetic you all are. It WAS an incredible achievement, 2 women placing, 1 winning, at the Cheltenham festival? Extraordinary - very well done to them, excellent rides from both of them.


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## Daffodil (18 March 2010)

I was particularly watching Katie Walsh over the last fence and the run in, and I actually thought she used her whip (touching the horse) rarely.  I thought she did an excellent job of hands and heels for most of the run in.

Congratulations to her and her runner-up for a terrific performance.

I just hope her brother can do the same!


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## Faithkat (18 March 2010)

"Excellent rides" . . . . . "congratulations"?????????????????
Words fail me.  Being handed a four day ban for excessive use of the whip is NOTHING to be proud of whether you are male or female.  Perhaps their role model is A P McCoy [who was famously banned for a very long time and was sent back to the British Racing School for exactly the same offence.]


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## Ignition (18 March 2010)

faithkat you are obviously ignorant about racing.


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## Faithkat (18 March 2010)

On the contrary, I love and follow racing although I do prefer the flat


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## Caledonia (18 March 2010)

Faithkat said:



			On the contrary, I love and follow racing although I do prefer the flat
		
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Well you obviously don't fully grasp it......


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## Faithkat (18 March 2010)

in that case I'm not alone, the racing stewards at Cheltenham obviously don't fully grasp it either nor do other people on this forum.  My first reply ws in agreement with OP


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## Caledonia (18 March 2010)

If you believe, as a supposed fan of racing, that yesterday's achievement of two girls first and second, was shameful, then you don't grasp it. They didn't beat all the rest of the field because of the whip, they were well clear. 
Now, I don't really like to see horses being hit, but it is part of racing. They slightly overstepped the mark in their efforts to beat each other, and they're not the only jockeys to have had a few days holiday give for the same offence this meeting, so why denigrate their particular exceptional achievement?


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## teagreen (18 March 2010)

What a load of old ****.

I don't advocate hitting the horses. But the whips are the safest they have ever been, if you pick one up you will see that - they did not even mark the horses because if they did, they'd have been in serious trouble. Yesterday my horse refused to go through the gateway, so he got several large cracks on his bottom with a normal stick - am I now crueller than those jocks?

Can't you be happy that they actually GOT a ban - they were punished for their oveuse, you'd have been damn unhappy if they hadn't been. It was an incredible achievement for Katie to win, you could see how emotion she was as it's actually rather a big thing to win at the festival. People can never be happy for people can they, there is always a grumble 

I thought it was a marvellous ride to get him home and a very well deserved win. Well done Katie!


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## Amymay (18 March 2010)

They didn't beat all the rest of the field because of the whip, they were well clear.
		
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Then why use it quite so excessively?


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## teagreen (18 March 2010)

amymay said:



			Then why use it quite so excessively?

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Because there was 2 in with a chance and in the heat of the moment to try and beat each other, they overused the whip.

Then they were penalised for it. As a result, Nina Carberry, one of the best female jocks around, will miss Aintree which will be gutting for her I'm sure. They didn't get away with it, nor did they do anything shockingly wrong - the horses weren't marked or beaten within an inch of their lives...


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## Amymay (18 March 2010)

or beaten within an inch of their lives...
		
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Of course they weren't - I agree.

I just find the whole thing of beating a horse that is trying his heart out over the line distasteful and uncessasary....


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## BBH (18 March 2010)

Well said AM.

I hate racing and here speaks one with a race horse trainer stepfather.


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## Sunny08 (18 March 2010)

I am always amazed by how quickly people can turn nasty in thie forum. Just because a persons opinion is different from yours it does not make them 'ignorant' of 'talking *******s'!
I can see the amazing achievement of these two women, and I really am not a fan of racing! However as role models and top sports people they are also expected to behave appropriately and being banned for over use of the whip is not a positive image! I don't think it is ok to 'over use the whip' in any circumstances whether competition, racing etc.! the moment we put put winning and money before ethics is the moment we cross the line. 

I am ready to be now shot down by all the cynics rather than an open constructive discussion!!!


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## Amymay (18 March 2010)

LHS said:



			I hate racing and here speaks one with a race horse trainer stepfather.
		
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I really like racing, love watching it - just wish they'd throw their godamn whips away..............


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## BBH (18 March 2010)

LOL the whips are the half of it though.

Very well put Sunny.


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## The Virgin Dubble (18 March 2010)

John Francome quote today about Katie Walsh and her overuse of the whip:

"When someone ribbed her over the whip ban she retorted "yeah, and he'd have got three more cracks if it had made the difference between winning and losing""


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## The Virgin Dubble (18 March 2010)

Sunny08 said:



			I am always amazed by how quickly people can turn nasty in thie forum. Just because a persons opinion is different from yours it does not make them 'ignorant' of 'talking *******s'!
I can see the amazing achievement of these two women, and I really am not a fan of racing! However as role models and top sports people they are also expected to behave appropriately and being banned for over use of the whip is not a positive image! I don't think it is ok to 'over use the whip' in any circumstances whether competition, racing etc.! the moment we put put winning and money before ethics is the moment we cross the line. 

I am ready to be now shot down by all the cynics rather than an open constructive discussion!!!
		
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No shots fired here. You make some relevant points.
There is a huge difference between appropriate use of the whip, and over use of the whip.


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## Caledonia (18 March 2010)

They need the whips, it's not just to 'beat' them with..... it's to help try and keep then straight as well..........


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## Amymay (18 March 2010)

"When someone ribbed her over the whip ban she retorted "yeah, and he'd have got three more cracks if it had made the difference between winning and losing""
		
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Nice.  Interesting as I think that woman can quite often be so much harder in this sport than men....


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## Amymay (18 March 2010)

Caledonia said:



			They need the whips, it's not just to 'beat' them with..... it's to help try and keep then straight as well..........
		
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Fair point - and have seen the affect switching hands can have - sometimes dramitcally.  Just don't hit them (my last word I promise )


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## The Virgin Dubble (18 March 2010)

Caledonia said:



			They need the whips, it's not just to 'beat' them with..... it's to help try and keep then straight as well..........
		
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Agree with that. It can make a huge difference. 
I also think they are needed as a wake up call for some horses, and I don't have a problem with them being used.... as long as it's not excessive.


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## The Virgin Dubble (18 March 2010)

amymay said:



			(my last word I promise )
		
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Yeah, riiiight......


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## Caledonia (18 March 2010)

dubble said:



			Yeah, riiiight......  

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Hahaha....... it wouldn't let me post just smilies, it said my message was too short......... there's a first!


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## combat_claire (18 March 2010)

amymay said:



			I really like racing, love watching it - just wish they'd throw their godamn whips away..............

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I'll play devil's advocate here. You object to the use of the whip in racing so presumably you consider yourself to be a fair and humane individual. Yet you freely admit to loving and watching a sport where on average 166 horses die taking part in each year. I'd be really interested to know how you can square this in your mind.

For the record I like racing, I watch it and bet on it and realise that accidents do happen. But 467 horses dead or destroyed following serious injury during racing (which appears to exclude fatalities during point to point meetings) between the 13th March 2007 and yesterday seems to be a very high price to pay.


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## Amymay (18 March 2010)

Yes, it's a dichotomy Claire - I admit.  And there's no way to marry them I suppose.


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## Caledonia (18 March 2010)

combat_claire said:



			I'll play devil's advocate here. You object to the use of the whip in racing so presumably you consider yourself to be a fair and humane individual. Yet you freely admit to loving and watching a sport where on average 166 horses die taking part in each year. I'd be really interested to know how you can square this in your mind.

For the record I like racing, I watch it and bet on it and realise that accidents do happen. But 467 horses dead or destroyed following serious injury during racing (which appears to exclude fatalities during point to point meetings) between the 13th March 2007 and yesterday seems to be a very high price to pay.
		
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I wrote this earlier this year in response to a query elsewhere. I've doctored it slightly to make it more current. 

The average on the track according to the AA site below is 165 a year. However......... it has to be taken proportionally......... this is the site set up by the Animal aid eejit that manages to link every equine disaster to horseracing, inc Jamie Gray.........  This guy finds every horse that dies, he is obsessed with racing being 'cruel'.
I have no idea how many horses run every year, but it's a small percentage of fatalities to runners.

Taking a day in January as an example. It was an extreme day, as two horses died, at different tracks. Both suffered injuries on the flat. Out of 185 runners, 2 fatalities. There are that number of horses running somewhere most days, and the previous fatality was the 16th, ten days previously. So statistically that could be 2 fatalities in 1665 runners, or one horse per 832 runners. 

Yesterday at Cheltenham, 129 horses ran. 6 fell, one sadly died. That is not a normal percentage, that's high, but it could so easily have been none, it's the nature of the fall that killed him.

http://www.horsedeathwatch.com/

On this list is a horse that died. She was owned by one of my closest friends. She was home bred, and hugely loved, and was running in a bumper (NH flat race), her second ever race, when she lost her action. The jockey pulled her up immediately, my friend ran down the track to her, and her hind fetlock had broken. My friend got there in time to give her a hug and a kiss before the vet dispatched her. She was unaware, and in no pain. She had the most wonderful life she could hope for, and never wanted for anything.

So when a horse like her is described as raced to death, I want to spit on him.


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## combat_claire (18 March 2010)

Thanks Caledonia, useful to see those stats put in context. I am by no means anti-racing and not a huge fan of Animal Aid - interesting to see they distort the facts on racing as much as they do hunting. 

I hadn't really given the topic much consideration until on Sunday at a point to point - one horse broke its neck and was dead before the hunt staff could get to it and a second snapped tendons and was shot on the course.


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## Caledonia (18 March 2010)

It's hard on everyone when horses die, but there are so many that don't. They like racing, it's a fantastic life for most of them. There are horrors in all equestrian spheres, just not as publicised as the racing ones are.


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## Minxie (18 March 2010)

Caledonia said:



			Now, I don't really like to see horses being hit, but it is part of racing.
		
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I assume this is exactly how top dressage riders think of Rollkur


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## Caledonia (18 March 2010)

Minxie said:



			I assume this is exactly how top dressage riders think of Rollkur
		
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I see no parallels whatsoever. The only comparison would be the use of a dressage whip........ or spurs (incidentally as rare as hen's teeth in racing).


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## Minxie (18 March 2010)

Caledonia said:



			I see no parallels whatsoever. The only comparison would be the use of a dressage whip........ or spurs (incidentally as rare as hen's teeth in racing).
		
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no of course you wouldn't.

1. The whip is a means to an end - its to 'encourage' the horses to perform better

2. Rollkur is also a means to an end - its to encourage the horses to perform better

3. Some jockeys are banned for over use of the whip, some dressage riders are banned for using Rollkur. 

4. They are both pieces of equipment used by the rider.


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## Caledonia (18 March 2010)

Minxie said:



			no of course you wouldn't.

1. The whip is a means to an end - its to 'encourage' the horses to perform better

2. Rollkur is also a means to an end - its to encourage the horses to perform better

3. Some jockeys are banned for over use of the whip, some dressage riders are banned for using Rollkur. 

4. They are both pieces of equipment used by the rider.
		
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Are you for real????????

Since when has rollkur been a piece of equipment?

Some jockeys are banned for being over a drink limit in the morning before racing....... is that the same as use of the whip and rollkur?

Comfortable tack is to encourage horses to perform better as is corrective shoeing, is that the same as a whip and rollkur?

Please.......


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## Minxie (18 March 2010)

Apologies - I meant to say that dressage riders use drawreins to achieve the rollkur flexion.  And these are a pieces of equipment

What I was doing was highlighting the similarities about using techniques / equipment to achieve greater improvement in horses.  Racing uses whips / dressage uses rollkur. 

And yet you apparently feel that its totally acceptable to use the whip excessively and not to use draw reins excessively. 

I'm not sure why you were being so defensive. Its only a statement.  You agree with using a whip.  Many of the worlds top dressage riders agree with using the rollkur technique.  I'm not sure how you can argue that point - or not see the parallel.


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## scally (18 March 2010)

teagreen said:



			. Yesterday my horse refused to go through the gateway, so he got several large cracks on his bottom with a normal stick - am I now crueller than those jocks?
		
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Sorry yes I think you are as bad as the jockey's, why several large cracks, one should be more than sufficent to "encourage" a horse to go forward.  I actually wish to ride a well schooled, obedient horse that still thinks for itself, happy to work with me, warns me of dangers, can display their natural behaviour, not that does something in fear of several large cracks from a whip.

As for saying if hitting him three more times if that was the difference between winning and losing then all admiration for the jockey has now gone, good jockeys can encourage a horse to win with hands and heels, there is no place in any horse sport to abuse (by artificial aids or training methods) in this day and age.  Both horses ran their hearts out to be rewarded how?


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## marmalade76 (19 March 2010)

scally said:



			Sorry yes I think you are as bad as the jockey's, why several large cracks, one should be more than sufficent to "encourage" a horse to go forward.  I actually wish to ride a well schooled, obedient horse that still thinks for itself, happy to work with me, warns me of dangers, can display their natural behaviour, not that does something in fear of several large cracks from a whip.

As for saying if hitting him three more times if that was the difference between winning and losing then all admiration for the jockey has now gone, good jockeys can encourage a horse to win with hands and heels, there is no place in any horse sport to abuse (by artificial aids or training methods) in this day and age.  Both horses ran their hearts out to be rewarded how?
		
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Well said Scally, totally agree!

Racehorses are allowed to show far more natural behaviour than dressage horses, their job is running in a herd. I'd be willing to bet there are far more happy racehorses than dressage horses!

Interesting to read that post about AP being sent back to the racing school, I didn't know that, but have always had him down as a 'win at any cost' type.


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## Caledonia (19 March 2010)

Minxie said:



			And yet you apparently feel that its totally acceptable to use the whip excessively and not to use draw reins excessively. 

I'm not sure why you were being so defensive. Its only a statement.  You agree with using a whip.  Many of the worlds top dressage riders agree with using the rollkur technique.  I'm not sure how you can argue that point - or not see the parallel.
		
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I'm not being defensive, I was actually laughing out loud at how ludicrous your parallel was. 

Please don't put words into my mouth. I have already said that I don't like to see horses being hit. 

To spell it out for you, horses receive perhaps half a dozen cracks across the backside at the end of a race, for a max of 20 seconds or so. They are not whipped every stride, and they are not hit hard enough to mark. Frequently, they only race maybe six times a year. 

Horses subjected to rollkur are forced into unnatural and uncomfortable positions day in day out, often for 45 minutes or more, if some of the training videos are to be believed. Their mental and physical well-being is compromised. 

If you cannot see how far apart these two aspects of the horse world are, then I doubt your understanding of horses entirely. 

I'm not arguing my point, btw, I'm pointing out you don't have one. What you are saying holds the same logic as ''If the grass is green, everything that's green must be grass........''


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## Fantasy_World (19 March 2010)

QR What I did see when Katie won on Poker de Sivola was a very talented young jockey living the dream at Cheltenham. Nina is the same, a very talented young female jockey.
Christ women can never do right can they? Women jockeys are considered to be weaker at race-riding than their male counterparts in some quarters and yet in the amateur race both the female jockeys showed their male colleagues a thing or too.
Now say for instance that both jockeys had failed to use their whips and not ride out at the finish, would they have been slated for then being weak at the end of the race, if  their mounts had not finished first and second.
Now for one who does not like to see excessive use of the whip for no real reason I will also argue that today's whips are the kindest they have ever been. I have picked them up, felt them and also whacked my own leg with one so know just how different they are to the ones you can openly buy in tack shops.
There is no comparison in my eyes.
Rarely if ever do race horses return marked by the whip and of those that do I know of at least one who had sensitive skin hence why it returned marked.
I agree with Caledonia for once in a lot of what they have said on here on this thread as it makes huge sense.
Whips are essential aids to a jockey as already pointed out as the jockeys ride so short that using legs is often farcical. They are used not only as an aid to sharpen them up, if racing lazily ( as some horses are complete and utter monkeys) but also to help keep them straight as it is not as easy to guide with kicks from the heels when they are so high up the horses flanks. They are also used to make them race a bit quicker at the end of a race when it is needed in order for them to try and win.
Personally I see nothing wrong in using whips and even what is sometimes seen as overuse so long as the horse is given time to respond and the horse seemingly suffers no ill effects as a result of being hit.
I wonder how many pony club type ponies get smacked around at home or at events by whips, just so they can be seen to perform? I know the subject matter is about National Hunt horse racing but it doesn't hurt to put things into perspective from time to time.
As Caledonia previously pointed out racehorses, particularly those over jumps only race around half a dozen up to eight times approximately each year. Compare that to other horses and ponies in other disciplines who are not only trained hard but expected to perform repeatedly at far more events throughout the year.
All I can say is well done Katie and I wish I had been on at the price


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## Minxie (19 March 2010)

Caledonia said:



			I'm not being defensive, I was actually laughing out loud at how ludicrous your parallel was. 

Please don't put words into my mouth. I have already said that I don't like to see horses being hit. 

To spell it out for you, horses receive perhaps half a dozen cracks across the backside at the end of a race, for a max of 20 seconds or so. They are not whipped every stride, and they are not hit hard enough to mark. Frequently, they only race maybe six times a year. 

Horses subjected to rollkur are forced into unnatural and uncomfortable positions day in day out, often for 45 minutes or more, if some of the training videos are to be believed. Their mental and physical well-being is compromised. 

If you cannot see how far apart these two aspects of the horse world are, then I doubt your understanding of horses entirely. 

I'm not arguing my point, btw, I'm pointing out you don't have one. What you are saying holds the same logic as ''If the grass is green, everything that's green must be grass........''
		
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hahaha - ah the inconvenient truth. 

When I finally read all through your blah blah blah you've missed my point.  But that okay  I don't expect you to understand the complexities of it.  

So i will spell it out for you.  You say that using the whip is one part of racing.  I'm saying using rollkur is one part of dressage.  Just as you and others can justify the use of the whip, dressage can justify the use of rollkur. End of.


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## Faithkat (19 March 2010)

marmalade76 said:



			Well said Scally, totally agree!

Racehorses are allowed to show far more natural behaviour than dressage horses, their job is running in a herd. I'd be willing to bet there are far more happy racehorses than dressage horses!

Interesting to read that post about AP being sent back to the racing school, I didn't know that, but have always had him down as a 'win at any cost' type.
		
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http://findarticles.com/p/news-arti...8_Nov_17/jockey-club-jump-mccoy/ai_n35855979/

If you google A P McCoy whip ban you will find an astonishing number of references

e.g.
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...-hitting-mount-50-times-with-whip-578181.html


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## teagreen (19 March 2010)

People jumping on McCoy is like people jumping on professional showing producers  Some people just love picking faults in people who do a lot of winning. In his younger days, McCoy's resolution to win got him into trouble with the stewards. There is the important bit - he DID get punished, they didn't ignore him and say "Oh well, you're the champ, we'll let you off", they punished him like they do with any jockey who overuses the whip. He's without a doubt the greatest jump jockey we have seen for many years, perhaps ever, an expert horseman and a fantastic tactition - anyone who says McCoy doesn't care for the horses is an idiot. Simple. Did you see his clear love for Binocular winning the Champion Hurdle on Tuesday? Jockeys are often put between a rock and a hard place, as was the case for McCoy on Deenos Beano - if you don't push hard, you get into trouble with the owners and trainer. You might get jocked off the horse next time - do remember that being a jockey is a profession and whilst jockeys should always be exercising caution in their use of the whip, they desperately want to win and if there is that possibility at a massive festival such as this, they will sometimes push a bit harder. It's the emotion, the desire, you are so close to winning yet could be so far - wouldn't you push a bit further in the heat of the moment? And if they do, they ALWAYS get punished for it. Getting a 4 day ban for jockeys is not just a holiday - it is their job and it is 4 days of losing money for them.

As I said, I don't think it's right to overuse the whip AT ALL. But the whip DOES NOT hurt the horses - it is used as an encouragement, not to hurt the horses into running faster. Look at these whip regulations from the BHA:



			Maximum length, including flap, of 68 cms; 
Minimum diameter of 1 cm.

The only additional feature which may be attached to the whip is a flap. If a flap is attached it must fall within the specifications below:


A maximum length of flap from the end of the shaft of 10 cms; 
A maximum width of the flap of 4 cms, with a minimum width of 2 cms; 
The flap from the end of the shaft must not contain any reinforcements or additions. 
There shall be no binding within 23 cms of the end of the flap; 
The contact area of the shaft must be smooth, with no protrusion or raised surface, and covered by shock absorbing material throughout its circumference such that it gives a compression factor of at least 6mm; 
The flap must have similar shock absorbing characteristics to that of the contact area; 
The weight must not exceed 160 gms.
		
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Now, your average stick sold at the local tack shop will be FAR harsher than that described above, and will be used FAR more often and with greater force than jockeys use on the horses. How many times have you been at an event or a showjumping competition and seen a horse refuse, then get 3 sharp cracks behind for doing so? You will not find safer, more humane sticks anywhere than an on racecourse - so whilst they should still be used with caution (and they are, or the jockeys get punished), they are not hurting the horses to the extent to which some people seem to think. You think a racehorse in full flight really feels the sting of a whip? No - it's an encouragement, not a punishment or a tool to inflict pain. I think out of all the issues in racing, the whip is now a very small one.

You want to see whip abuse? You should look at some of the flat races in America, but that's a whole other story.


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## Minxie (19 March 2010)

marmalade76 said:



			Racehorses are allowed to show far more natural behaviour than dressage horses, their job is running in a herd. I'd be willing to bet there are far more happy racehorses than dressage horses!
		
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I don't think they are necessarily allowed to show 'far' more but I take on your point and agree there is a degree of more natural behaviour.  When I rode work for a national hunt trainer he was one of the very very few who used to actually turn his out his horses during the season at all.  Nearly every other yard had them stabled 24/7 with only an hours exercise.  A few yards gave them holidays for a few weeks but this was more for economic reasons that for welfare ones. This could have totally changed though since I rode. 

But if you look at horses that race (at all levels) I'd say that most of them still have predominantly stabled lives with very little natural behaviour other than when they are being exercised or raced - apparently only 6 times a year. (our race schedule was much heavier than that).  And yet I'd also think that it would really only be the top 20/ 30% of horses that are kept for dressage who lead more restricted lives - limited turn out / limited interaction with other horses etc. 

I've worked in racing and all I know of dressage is what my mate tells me (who does dressage on my horse).  My original point is that just as people feel that using the whip is an acceptable part of the racing sport I suspect there is an equal number of people who feel that using rollkur is an acceptable part of the dressage sport.  Thats all. I wasn't saying one was right and one was wrong.  Just that everybody can find reasons to validate their opinions on what they do and don't do with horses.  Some people find the use of the whip offensive but hate rollkur and visa versa.


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## teddyt (19 March 2010)

teagreen said:



			I don't advocate hitting the horses.
		
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Then you wrote 



			Yesterday my horse refused to go through the gateway, so he got several large cracks on his bottom with a normal stick - am I now crueller than those jocks?
		
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As you asked, the answers yes. Violence just to get a horse through a gate shows a lack of understanding of horse behaviour and no respect for a living creature.




			Can't you be happy that they actually GOT a ban - they were punished for their oveuse, you'd have been damn unhappy if they hadn't been. It was an incredible achievement for Katie to win, you could see how emotion she was as it's actually rather a big thing to win at the festival. People can never be happy for people can they, there is always a grumble 

I thought it was a marvellous ride to get him home and a very well deserved win. Well done Katie!
		
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I would be more than happy, if it meant that the horse wasnt whipped for human gain. However if a win has to come with infliction of pain on the horse then no, its not deserved.

Padded or not, its still a whip. Why cant the winner be decided through fitness, management and skill- instead of by beating the horse?


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## teagreen (19 March 2010)

teddyt said:



			Then you wrote 


As you asked, the answers yes. Violence just to get a horse through a gate shows a lack of understanding of horse behaviour and no respect for a living creature.



I would be more than happy, if it meant that the horse wasnt whipped for human gain. However if a win has to come with infliction of pain on the horse then no, its not deserved.

Padded or not, its still a whip. Why cant the winner be decided through fitness, management and skill- instead of by beating the horse?
		
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No respect for a living creature  I'm not going to even begin to explain to you how I treat, ride and manage my horses, but believe me, they couldn't be more well cared for and respected. 

I regard myself as experienced enough to know when a horse doesn't want to go through a gate because it is in pain, it is scared or worried or because it's being plain naughty. I asked nicely twice, I got no reponse, so I asked harder. Half the people who complain about whips in racing are the type who say 'Oh my goodness, Dolly won't go through the gate when I ask...well if there is nothing scary there then he must be in pain! Quick, call the dentist and the chiropractor!" I'm not that type of horseperson. Do tell me, what do you do when you ride a naughty horse who won't go forwards? 

The horses you see at the festival are at 100% fitness. But they do not always run flat out - they often need encouragement to do so. A jockey will get a horse as close as possible through skill - you don't see them hitting them are the start to get them to the front. But they can barely use their legs, pushing only has so much effect - so surely a few smacks with a padded stick does no harm? They don't beat the horse  And how on earth do you mean 'decide the winner through good management?'


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## 3BayGeldings (19 March 2010)

... and she's won a 2nd! Good on her!


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## teagreen (19 March 2010)

_JH_ said:



			... and she's won a 2nd! Good on her!
		
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Fantastic! Good on you girl, right up there in the top festival jockeys! Way to go Katie!

But as she didn't do it using natural horsemanship methods, I'm sure some people will have something to say


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## Amymay (19 March 2010)

_JH_ said:



			... and she's won a 2nd! Good on her!
		
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How can that be if she's been banned?


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## teagreen (19 March 2010)

amymay said:



			How can that be if she's been banned?

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The ban is not immediate, it is over a set date decided by the stewards.


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## Caledonia (19 March 2010)

The bans don't come into play immediately, Amymay. 

What a brilliant ride she gave this horse........ cool as a cucumber.


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## Amymay (19 March 2010)

Ah, ok.

Thanks both.


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## Caledonia (19 March 2010)

teagreen said:



			But as she didn't do it using natural horsemanship methods, I'm sure some people will have something to say 

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Yeh, lucky there were no reversing poles or upturned buckets to stand on


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## teddyt (19 March 2010)

teagreen said:



			Do tell me, what do you do when you ride a naughty horse who won't go forwards?
		
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I work out why its being 'naughty'. Most of the time its not actually being naughty, its trying to communicate that it is uncomfortable/worried/insecure/stressed or whatever. By the time its refusing to move you have missed several signals and the horse has to resort to stopping to make itself heard. I certainly dont give the horse 'several large cracks' as you put it. Totally OTT and unecessary IMO. I always carry a whip but it is never used out of temper, frustration or as a shortcut for correct understanding and training of the horse. Also, if you have got to the point where a horse is communcating through behaviour in an equine equivalent of shouting then you have either asked too much of the horse or the horse doesnt trust you enough to do as you ask. Either way, it is the rider that needs to address their knowledge, understanding and communication skills, NOT a quick fix by 'several large cracks' with a whip and forcing a horse to do something through pain (or fear of pain).





			And how on earth do you mean 'decide the winner through good management?'
		
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Im amused. Management = routine, environment, nutrition, tack, care after exercise, bedding, turnout.... They all affect how well a horse can perform. You could have a genetically superior horse, trained by the best trainer and ridden by the best jockey but if you feed it mollichaff it wont perform at its best. A bit like trying to run a formula one car from a back street garage on standard petrol from the station up the road.

Management influences success. At a different % of influence than genetics and fitness but incredibly important nonetheless.


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## 3BayGeldings (19 March 2010)

Yes sounds like some would rather the jockeys carried carrot sticks as opposed to whips


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## teddyt (19 March 2010)

teagreen said:



			But as she didn't do it using natural horsemanship methods, I'm sure some people will have something to say 

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For the record- im not into natural horsemanship
but i am into training and understanding the horse, not just getting results by being selfish or through pain, fear, force or bullying


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## Ignition (19 March 2010)

amymay said:



			How can that be if she's been banned?

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Interesting. This comment shows you to be ignorant about racing, yet you still found reason to comment on this thread about the important issue of whips - a subject probably best left to the more knowledgable. Stick to your parelli, AmyMay.


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## teagreen (19 March 2010)

teddyt said:



			I work out why its being 'naughty'. Most of the time its not actually being naughty, its trying to communicate that it is uncomfortable/worried/insecure/stressed or whatever. By the time its refusing to move you have missed several signals and the horse has to resort to stopping to make itself heard. I certainly dont give the horse 'several large cracks' as you put it. Totally OTT and unecessary IMO. I always carry a whip but it is never used out of temper, frustration or as a shortcut for correct understanding and training of the horse. Also, if you have got to the point where a horse is communcating through behaviour in an equine equivalent of shouting then you have either asked too much of the horse or the horse doesnt trust you enough to do as you ask. Either way, it is the rider that needs to address their knowledge, understanding and communication skills, NOT a quick fix by 'several large cracks' with a whip and forcing a horse to do something through pain (or fear of pain).




Im amused. Management = routine, environment, nutrition, tack, care after exercise, bedding, turnout.... They all affect how well a horse can perform. You could have a genetically superior horse, trained by the best trainer and ridden by the best jockey but if you feed it mollichaff it wont perform at its best. A bit like trying to run a formula one car from a back street garage on standard petrol from the station up the road.

Management influences success. At a different % of influence than genetics and fitness but incredibly important nonetheless.
		
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You're funny  You also seem to have absolutely no idea about racehorses or racehorse training. Therefore I'm not going to even try to explain anything else to you because you have no idea what we're talking about, sorry!

JH, you're completely right


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## Amymay (19 March 2010)

_JH_ said:



			Yes sounds like some would rather the jockeys carried carrot sticks as opposed to whips  

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Well I certainly wouldn't.  And those of you who know me know that I'm certainly not opposed to giving a horse a good crack where it's warranted.

I think what many of us are in fact saying is that these horses run for fun - they love it - and I certainly worry about the fairness of hitting a horse that is allready giving you 110%.  You can encourage it with your hands and heal.  I hold up my hands though and say that the reality is I only know about racing what I see on the box etc. and have no insider knowledge on how these horses should be ridden.  My opinions are only based on what I see.

Anyway - feelings run strong on this subject.  However, I think I would probably prefer a whip to a carrot stick if pressed........


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## teddyt (19 March 2010)

teagreen said:



			You're funny  You also seem to have absolutely no idea about racehorses or racehorse training. Therefore I'm not going to even try to explain anything else to you because you have no idea what we're talking about, sorry!
		
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If you say so. You obviously have little conviction in your point of view compared to mine, if you cant be bothered to explain and try and get me to understand. Now i see why you used the whip on your horse like you did. 

One of the best trainers in the country thought differently to you as he headhunted me and offered me a job as his assistant once  Racing isnt for me though, due to the way many of the horses are treated for human gain. Im not anti-racing per se but it does create alot of welfare issues that i dislike immensely.


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## Caledonia (19 March 2010)

teddyt said:



			Racing isnt for me though, due to the way many of the horses are treated for human gain. Im not anti-racing per se but it does create alot of welfare issues that i dislike immensely.


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And of course all other horse sports are squeaky and shiny and have no human gain.....

Racing is only different in that EVERYTHING is out there in the public eye.


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## teddyt (19 March 2010)

Caledonia said:



			And of course all other horse sports are squeaky and shiny and have no human gain.....
		
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I know you are being sarcastic but not at all. Even outside of sport there are far too many issues with horse welfare due to human selfishness. But this conversation is about racing.




			Racing is only different in that EVERYTHING is out there in the public eye.
		
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I quite agree.


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## 3BayGeldings (19 March 2010)

which trainer headhunted you, out of interest?


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## teddyt (19 March 2010)

I'd rather not say tbh. Although it was ten years ago i wasnt exactly truthful about why i didnt want the job. I couldnt exactly tell him its because i dissaproved of the way he did certain things with the horses! And you never know who reads this forum. All i will say is that he was very successful, he had alot of horses and trained from a multi million pound purpose built yard. It just wasnt for me.

(I had worked for another yard nearby whilst i was a student and he tracked me down from there. He wanted someone practical but with scientific knowledge too and i had done an Equine Science degree)


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## Caledonia (19 March 2010)

Ah well, teddyt, you might not have worked out with him anyway, a lot of assistants don't.


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## Spudlet (19 March 2010)

Ignition said:



			Interesting. This comment shows you to be ignorant about racing, yet you still found reason to comment on this thread about the important issue of whips - a subject probably best left to the more knowledgable. Stick to your parelli, AmyMay.
		
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That's extremely rude!

Everyone has the right to an opinion, and it is no business of your to tell people where to post. Personally, I think fair play to AmyMay for admitting she didn't know something.


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## phoebeast (19 March 2010)

i'm quite confused to be fair as she rode today.....


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## teapot (19 March 2010)

phoebeast said:



			i'm quite confused to be fair as she rode today.....
		
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Racing bans are not taken with immediate effect. Her ban will be from x date to y date.


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## scally (19 March 2010)

I do think that bans should be handed out from the day they commit the offence for x amount of days, that way jockeys would be far more carefull about the use of the whip.  For example a 3 day ban handed out on day one of the Cheltenham Festival would have far more impact than a 3 day ban starting in a few days time.  

That would mean that Walsh would have been banned from riding today therefore not allowing her to win today at a top class meeting, so far more impact and they would hopefully ride with a little more thought and consideration for both their careers and their mounts rather than after that one win.

On a totally different point, the argument that the new race whips dont hurt as they dont leave a mark, if a horses skin is that sensitive it can feel a fly land on it, then of course they can feel a whip hitting them time and time again.

I would love to see whips banned totally, then we will truly see who the great jockeys are.  My love of jump racing is to see horses running and jumping, because they want to not because they are bullied into it.


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## marmalade76 (20 March 2010)

scally said:



			I would love to see whips banned totally, then we will truly see who the great jockeys are.  My love of jump racing is to see horses running and jumping, because they want to not because they are bullied into it.
		
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That would be interesting, and I also like to see horses doing a job they love.

Perhaps I have been very lucky, all the horses and ponies I have had have been keen, busy, whizzy types that always gave their all every time, so if they slowed up, it was because they were genuinely tired and hitting them would not have got me anything other than an upset and insulted horse!

And, FWIW, I do not approve of Parelli at all.


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## duggan (20 March 2010)

scally said:



			I do think that bans should be handed out from the day they commit the offence for x amount of days, that way jockeys would be far more carefull about the use of the whip.  For example a 3 day ban handed out on day one of the Cheltenham Festival would have far more impact than a 3 day ban starting in a few days time.
		
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Which then means that they have no right to appeal, and the next few days totally hang on a couple of stewards??!! Right. So the local bobby should also be able to hand out jail sentances, no need for judge and jury.
The stewards review the tapes, they hand out what they consider to be appropriate. They can also refer the incident to HQ, who will deal with it. And the jockey/trainer can appeal, and occasionally win, as other evidence can come to light. For instance, a ban for a horse interferring can be overturned because the horse had a leg and was leaning that way. 
This is the correct legal process, luckily sense prevails. And you'll find that any ban, to most jockeys, will be a pain in the butt and to be avoided. It's very hard to stay sensible in the heat of the moment.


An earlier comment, that I can't be bothered to go back and quote, stated the amount of losses on the track. The poster's signature then states repeal of the ban, so they are a hunting enthusiast. Perhaps it's a good thing the losses out hunting are not recorded, as they are many. Racing is in the eye, hence a target. All data is available. Racing has become safer, but it could never pretend to be a safe sport. But as long as the horses a keen so am I.

Well done Katie BTW, a good rider who deserved her wins. Hopefully experience will help her to not overstep the mark again.


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## Maesfen (20 March 2010)

I can't believe what drivel I've seen from some in this thread and from those I didn't expect it from too but suffice to say I congratulate Katie on her wins, they were both well deserved.  The girls will have learnt their lessons and be more careful in future but they are both brilliant riders and they deserve their successes, I know how hard they work for them.

As to the rolkur/racing analogy, absolutely laughable.  How can you equate less than five minutes in a race very few times a year to being trained in rolkur many times a week and for very much longer at a time?  Short answer, you can't and I certainly know which I wouldn't use.


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## scally (20 March 2010)

Good point Duggan, I did not think about their right to appeal.  This just shows how hard it is to get things right in everyones eyes.


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## Caledonia (20 March 2010)

duggan said:



			Which then means that they have no right to appeal, and the next few days totally hang on a couple of stewards??!! Right. So the local bobby should also be able to hand out jail sentances, no need for judge and jury.
The stewards review the tapes, they hand out what they consider to be appropriate. They can also refer the incident to HQ, who will deal with it. And the jockey/trainer can appeal, and occasionally win, as other evidence can come to light. For instance, a ban for a horse interferring can be overturned because the horse had a leg and was leaning that way. 
This is the correct legal process, luckily sense prevails. And you'll find that any ban, to most jockeys, will be a pain in the butt and to be avoided. It's very hard to stay sensible in the heat of the moment.
		
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Totally correct. 

Added to which, the declarations are made for races the day before, so whilst you inconvenience a jockey, you may well screw up plans for other trainers and owners not remotely connected to the incident. Jockeys are not plucked out of the air, a regular jockey ban creates significant headaches for stables even when given time to rearrange their riding plans.


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## MagicMelon (20 March 2010)

Ignition, I just happened to come across this post.  Saying "stick to your parelli" is a very pathetic remark.  I am against the use of whips in such a manner.  Am horrified you accept it so readily.  Doesn't mean Im into Parelli however...


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## Scheherezade (20 March 2010)

Cazee34 said:



			QR What I did see when Katie won on Poker de Sivola was a very talented young jockey living the dream at Cheltenham. Nina is the same, a very talented young female jockey.
Christ women can never do right can they? Women jockeys are considered to be weaker at race-riding than their male counterparts in some quarters and yet in the amateur race both the female jockeys showed their male colleagues a thing or too.
Now say for instance that both jockeys had failed to use their whips and not ride out at the finish, would they have been slated for then being weak at the end of the race, if  their mounts had not finished first and second.All I can say is well done Katie and I wish I had been on at the price 

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So what are you saying - women don't have the talent to be able to win, and have to rely on illegal, cruel painful measures?


It doesn't matter whether they were male or female, stop being so sexist. Beating a horse is wrong. Plenty of people win at the top levels without smacking, beating or abusing their mounts. And the person who said they smacked their horse several times  - I hope you don't have children.

I'm not anti-whips at all, when they are fairly used, efficient and don't cross the encourage-abuse line. Hence why there is a rule for the excessive use of the whip. I don't see why people resort to beating up their animals anyway - you never see a F1 driver getting out a stick and smashing his car up...

ETA - this isn't about this particular rider, just a general take on the "you don't understand what it takes to win in racing" stance in the earlier pages of this post. I don't know much about Katie, so if she has learnt from this, and it was just a "heat of the moment" thing, then good luck to her.


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## Ignition (20 March 2010)

BrambleandMonty said:



			you never see a F1 driver getting out a stick and smashing his car up...
		
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PMSL. 

And stupidest quote of the day goes to...


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## Scheherezade (20 March 2010)

Tongue in cheek, my dear....

Far be it for you to assume noone matches upto your superior intellectual levels, BUT some of us also manage to occasionally stop banging rocks together to make a joke.


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## teagreen (20 March 2010)

BrambleandMonty said:



			So what are you saying - women don't have the talent to be able to win, and have to rely on illegal, cruel painful measures?
		
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Using the whip isn't illegal. Nor is it cruel or painful - the horses weren't marked. It is used as an encouragement. I'm sure they feel it, but it won't be as painful as the average smack a horse gets at home.




			Plenty of people win at the top levels without smacking, beating or abusing their mounts.
		
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And there are plenty of people who do. If you happen to attend competitions, both major and minor, in any area of equestrianism, you will see this. Jockeys are not abusing their horses  I have seen much worse at showjumping and dressage events.




			And the person who said they smacked their horse several times  - I hope you don't have children.
		
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 Er, what does that matter? How I ride my horses or parent my kids is none of your business - my horses are extremely happy, pain free and respectful and you, as a mere forum user, have NO way of telling otherwise!




			I don't see why people resort to beating up their animals anyway - you never see a F1 driver getting out a stick and smashing his car up...
		
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a) That's ridiculous 
b) The jockeys are not 'beating there horses up'. I have seen several showjumpers give their horses many cracks behind for refusing - that is beating. Giving a racehorses a smack with a racing whip - not beating. 

If you watch racing, you will probably see quite a lot of whip action. But if you actually watch what they do with the stick, you will see it is mostly used for encouraging them forward and keeping them straight without hitting the horse.

In this case, Katie Walsh DID hit the horse too much. So she was punished. But she didn't hurt the horse, she didn't beat it up like you see so many domestic horse owners/competitors do and I'm sure it was completely unfazed and unaware of what happened after the race.


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## duggan (20 March 2010)

We're trained, as jockeys, to 'show the horse the whip'. This means moving the whip forwards and backwards in rhythm to the stride, every third stride at most you can use the whip across the quarters. At this point you can't put pressure on the whip, it's more of an encouragement. A showjumper that pulls the horse up, turns the whip over and gives it a crack will exert more pressure than a jockey in a race.
Go and stand by the track, especially at a point, out on the back straight. The slap slap of the whips is normal, and you wouldn't know from the sound which horses were being encouraged down the neck and which are getting reminders. None are being 'beaten up'. 
When you are riding forwards in a finish you cannot turn your body round to put pressure and weight behind the stick. 
If you have a 'Harchibald' kind of horse you can make it all look easy and win on the bridle. But there are few of those around. Look at little Pigeon Island in the last, push shove, encourage, shove, slap, push. All to keep him trying and motivated. Que one smug looking horse, ears pricked, knowing full well he got there in time and gets all the attention. Fantastic to watch, brave little horse.

On one of my courses they sat me on the equicisor and told me to show the horse the whip, i did as was told, but whilst the darn machine was flying and i was showing away I informed him there was no point - my horse was wearing blinkers. Instructor rolled his eyes and shook his head. Troop wore blinkers all the time, i encouraged him with the whip, my voice and on one occasion I threw the kitchen sink at him too! Cruel woman.

Roll on Aintree!


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## Ignition (20 March 2010)

Excellent post Duggan, if only i had the inclination that yourself does to try and pacify the ignorant!


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## ForeverBroke_ (20 March 2010)

So none of us are allowed to learn then , Ignition??


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## Ignition (20 March 2010)

Absolutely. But people should learn and then judge, rather than the other way round.


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## duggan (20 March 2010)

Innocent until proven guilty doesn't apply to internet forums!
What I did consider, once away from the pc, is that the point I was making was it's hard to see when the whip is making contact, and when it is being shown. So there can be a lot of waving and little smacking. A good jockey knows that hands and heels can result in more effort, especially on a tired horse. But in the heat of the moment, at the meaty end of the race? Well, sometimes we get excited.
And talking of beating cars up, Basil Fawlty did once, it was hilarious!


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## Onyxia (22 March 2010)

scally said:



			On a totally different point, the argument that the new race whips dont hurt as they dont leave a mark, if a horses skin is that sensitive it can feel a fly land on it, then of course they can feel a whip hitting them time and time again.
		
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But I can feel a fly land on me,it takes quite a bit of force for it to hurt......and as a human,I dont have a coat in the way  .

I once was unfortunate enough to see a horse hit so hard it hurt it-the reaction was,to say the least,explosive and the rider was left in no doubt they had gone way too far.
I would expect the reaction from a thin skinned TB to be pretty fierce,yet have not seen or heard of a racehorse reacting to the whip with anything but the desired effect.


Racing is so high profile and so much in the public eye that every move made is under the microscope.
If they dont use the whip,punters are screamign for blood because they lost money due to the jockey not trying.
Use it and they are cruel.....


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