# Kauto Star at Olympia last night



## Roody2 (17 December 2014)

Was anyone else there thinking he looked a little odd, more than just 'tired'?


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## popsdosh (17 December 2014)

Roody2 said:



			Was anyone else there thinking he looked a little odd, more than just 'tired'?
		
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I am not surprised ,I find it sad that after such a successful time racing he was not allowed to enjoy his retirement in peace. I could say more but I wont.
I saw the same with Red Rum ,having seen him really close up 2 or 3 times I really felt sorry for him, He owed nobody anything yet he got hauled around all over the place.


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## SkewbyTwo (17 December 2014)

We thought it was weird that he stopped going forward, and she was pony club kicking him around the arena. He was virtually going backwards.

Popsdosh that is so sad I did not know that about RR. What did he do when he retired? How sad.


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## Sussexbythesea (17 December 2014)

I was there too and it was weird how he just stopped going forward. I think it was all she could do to keep him moving albeit really slowly and even leaving the ring he was crawling. 

Maybe he got stage fright, I know my horse backs off really badly when I enter an arena alone and if feels like someone has stuck the handbrake on or perhaps he was even tying up it looked so bad. He didn't look completely sound in the trot when he came in at the beginning either.


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## ihatework (17 December 2014)

In that kind of situation it could easily have been stage fright.

I wasn't there and don't know the horse, but he was such an exceptional racehorse I hope with all my heart he is happy in his new life and isn't being used as a publicity tool.


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## humblepie (17 December 2014)

Have only seen the video but think it would have been nice  to have perhaps had him and then another ex racehorse that is out competing and doing well perhaps doing a joint display or at least being in the arena together.   That would have given him some company if it was stage fright - perhaps one of the really successful ROR show horses could have joined in given that they have been to HOYS and so have already had that sort of atmosphere.


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## dressagelove (17 December 2014)

humblepie said:



			Have only seen the video but think it would have been nice  to have perhaps had him and then another ex racehorse that is out competing and doing well perhaps doing a joint display or at least being in the arena together.   That would have given him some company if it was stage fright - perhaps one of the really successful ROR show horses could have joined in given that they have been to HOYS and so have already had that sort of atmosphere.
		
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Have you got a link to the vid?


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## _GG_ (17 December 2014)

I would put it down to stage fright as in every video there has been of him in his retraining, he has looked relaxed, happy, forward and very content.


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## humblepie (17 December 2014)

No sorry haven't got the link and it has been taken down from where I saw it.


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## KautoStar1 (17 December 2014)

Jinglesmells said:



			I would put it down to stage fright as in every video there has been of him in his retraining, he has looked relaxed, happy, forward and very content.
		
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I would agree with this too.  its a pretty intimidating atmosphere and totally different to the ones he would have been used to.  He was probably just trying to take it all in.  Better a little bit behind the leg than going at full tilt, bucking and yeehaaing. 

can't comment about the lameness as haven't see the video - does anyone have a link ?

On the whole I am pleased he is out and about and appears to be living well.  I am sure those around him wouldn't be continuing if he wasn't happy or struggling mentally or physically.  I think we have to credit those closest to him knowing him well enough and knowing and doing what's best for him.


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## _GG_ (17 December 2014)

KautoStar1 said:



			I would agree with this too.  its a pretty intimidating atmosphere and totally different to the ones he would have been used to.  He was probably just trying to take it all in.  Better a little bit behind the leg than going at full tilt, bucking and yeehaaing. 

can't comment about the lameness as haven't see the video - does anyone have a link ?

On the whole I am pleased he is out and about and appears to be living well.  I am sure those around him wouldn't be continuing if he wasn't happy or struggling mentally or physically.  I think we have to credit those closest to him knowing him well enough and knowing and doing what's best for him.
		
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Agreed.
It's easy for a horse to look lame when it is backing off and it is also very natural for a horse to plant when overwhelmed, so I wouldn't even judge the pony club kicks. You can't predict things like this so when in the middle of it, it's hard to know what to do for the best.


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## Hets83 (17 December 2014)

I saw a video on Facebook and my first thought was that he looked like he had been given 'something' to take the edge off him.   Laura Collett had publicly said she was unsure about how he would cope with the atmosphere and being a person who regularly retrains and competes ex racehorses, I can understand her concern.  Mine would go mad in that atmosphere but think it was disappointing to see him dopey and not going forward.  Think his lack of impulsion made him look slightly unlevel.

We all know that ex racehorses can be retrained to a high standard in lots of disciplines, not sure how needed his appearance was if he did have to be given 'something' to get through it without blowing up.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (17 December 2014)

There was a lot of bad feeling at the time of the horse being removed from Paul Nicholl's racing yard, so it is not likely that the owner would send him back, to my mind its kinda pointless trying to make him a dressage star, its too little too late. 
Some horses can settle to a quiet life others are a bit too highly strung and are better kept in the racing yard routine. 
We had to put one down because there was no where for him to go, it was a sad day, but he did not know, and he had been living well for several years after his racing days were over.
Other high profile horse have found various homes with former jockeys or owners [very frequent], it is a problem but in this case it is not a matter of money, it seems to have been a flawed decision, and that is that.


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## PolarSkye (17 December 2014)

Jinglesmells said:



			I would put it down to stage fright as in every video there has been of him in his retraining, he has looked relaxed, happy, forward and very content.
		
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I haven't seen the video, but also think it could be stage fright . . . my very stressy boy looks awful when he is tense because his whole body tightens and he goes very short all round, curls up into himself and doesn't go forward.  In that atmosphere, mine would be understandably tense - and, having been to Olympia, I know that that arena is quite small and the audience is right on top of it - a very different environment than Kauto Star would be used to.

P


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## Goldenstar (17 December 2014)

Stage fright makes horses look awful and it's the weirdest feeling on top when it hits them and that environment is seriously strange for a horse like him .


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## Luci07 (17 December 2014)

It used to be that threads relating to Kauto Star were something to be enjoyed. Now every thread seems to have a people with very strong opinions which they often like to quote as a fact.

Here IS a fact, Kauto Star is NOT our horse, he doesn't belong to anyone on here. His owner made a decision on his horses new change of direction and I for one am happy to keep seeing him out. Yes he is a well known horse but that doesn't make him public property. Numerous reasons why he may have backed off last night but this is a unique situation which you can't really replicate easily.


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## Fools Motto (17 December 2014)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANOyHZNryxY

Best I have found.


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## Goldenstar (17 December 2014)

Luci07 said:



			It used to be that threads relating to Kauto Star were something to be enjoyed. Now every thread seems to have a people with very strong opinions which they often like to quote as a fact.

Here IS a fact, Kauto Star is NOT our horse, he doesn't belong to anyone on here. His owner made a decision on his horses new change of direction and I for one am happy to keep seeing him out. Yes he is a well known horse but that doesn't make him public property. Numerous reasons why he may have backed off last night but this is a unique situation which you can't really replicate easily.
		
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I have to agree with this there's nothing to suggest this horse is being dragged about doing far to much , the work they have chosen for him will keep him muscled and help him stay healthy for longer and the rider is unbelievably talented and the yard will have fantastic facilities,this is a horse who will never know wont or lack of care .

Worry more for the moderate 13 yo TB taking a trip to the sales .


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## nikkimariet (17 December 2014)

I only saw a 2 minute clip before it was very quickly pulled and sorry, but it really wasn't that bad. 

Messy, wobbly and a bit all over the place. KS looked totally behind the leg and slightly peeved. LC looked flustered and also slightly peeved. 

I see plenty worse at affiliated competitions. 

In fact, at the ROR champs at Vale, one lady came out from the Elem very displeased with her test. Called her horse a *******, kicked it HARD sending it shooting forwards, only to pull it up by it's back teeth 2 strides later. 

I would be VERY interested to see a further clip of last night...


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## Tr0uble (17 December 2014)

I'm Not sure it deserves the outrage it's getting....we commented at the time that it was uncomfortable to watch when he ground to a halt because LC seemed to lose all coordination and every time she kicked her hands flailed backwards and jabbed him in the mouth.

I think it looked even worse as it followed such stunning riding in the dressage.

I agree I've seen worse out competing, but it wasn't nice to watch as a spectator.


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## Perfect-Piaffe (17 December 2014)

Tr0uble said:



			I'm Not sure it deserves the outrage it's getting....we commented at the time that it was uncomfortable to watch when he ground to a halt because LC seemed to lose all coordination and every time she kicked her hands flailed backwards and jabbed him in the mouth.

I think it looked even worse as it followed such stunning riding in the dressage.

I agree I've seen worse out competing, but it wasn't nice to watch as a spectator.
		
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It was awful to watch- everyone around us was saying the same too.  I had to turn away in the end- what was she doing?!  The dressage before was great though


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## cundlegreen (17 December 2014)

Tr0uble said:



			I'm Not sure it deserves the outrage it's getting....we commented at the time that it was uncomfortable to watch when he ground to a halt because LC seemed to lose all coordination and every time she kicked her hands flailed backwards and jabbed him in the mouth.

I think it looked even worse as it followed such stunning riding in the dressage.

I agree I've seen worse out competing, but it wasn't nice to watch as a spectator.
		
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I don't know what all the fuss is about. Its so nice to see him properly muscled up, which he never was when racing. He looks soft and also moves better than he ever did when trained by PN. I always wondered how such an ordinary horse did so well racing. The "pony club" kicking I can sympathise with. there's nothing worse than a horse suddenly going behind the bit when the rider is expecting it to be rather more lively. I had this once with a very forward going Hackney, who completely had a meltdown at the sight of white boards. The resulting video was not a pretty sight!


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## Tr0uble (17 December 2014)

That's kinda what I meant...it wasn't great but not deserving of all the criticism it's getting.

When he first came out he looked great and we said how nice it was to see him looking so good


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## Roody2 (17 December 2014)

Tr0uble said:



			I'm Not sure it deserves the outrage it's getting....we commented at the time that it was uncomfortable to watch when he ground to a halt because LC seemed to lose all coordination and every time she kicked her hands flailed backwards and jabbed him in the mouth.

.
		
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Agree with this. And also the sentiment that it probably did look worse as it followed the high standard of dressage we had just seen.


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## katherinef (17 December 2014)

cundlegreen said:



			I don't know what all the fuss is about. Its so nice to see him properly muscled up, which he never was when racing. He looks soft and also moves better than he ever did when trained by PN. I always wondered how such an ordinary horse did so well racing. The "pony club" kicking I can sympathise with. there's nothing worse than a horse suddenly going behind the bit when the rider is expecting it to be rather more lively. I had this once with a very forward going Hackney, who completely had a meltdown at the sight of white boards. The resulting video was not a pretty sight!
		
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Kauto was the greatest chaser of recent times certainly since Arkle. He was brilliantly trained by Paul Nicholls  and was no ordinary horse. This Kauto at Olympia is not the brilliant Kauto I remember.


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## Sussexbythesea (17 December 2014)

I'm only saying what I saw first hand and hope I'm not being classed as "outraged" or "criticising".  It was not to do with comparing him to the dressage horse previously. Quite obviously he was bothered by something (most probably stage fright as I said first) and there was nothing Laura could do to keep him moving really except maybe give him a wallop which would have gone down badly in any case. The video posted here ends before he gets to the point where she struggled to keep him even walking whilst the commentators rambled on. 

It is just an observation but when you are front of an audience of thousands doing a demo it is bound to be noticed and it was VERY noticeable. I mostly felt sympathy / empathy because I have practically carried my WB around many a dressage arena when he was going beautifully in warm-up.


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## _GG_ (17 December 2014)

Well, I'm glad I'm not LC at this moment in time. I just watched the video and good grief, I suppose everyone commenting negatively has never had a horse not play ball at least once.

I understand the sentiment behind the concerns but I personally don't think the concern is justified at all. I was expecting to watch a video and see far worse than that. She wasn't wearing spurs or yanking him around. I'm struggling to see what the issue is here. Just looks like a horse having an off day and being really quite polite about it all.


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## Alec Swan (17 December 2014)

The horse didn't want to do it,  it's that simple.  Everything was wrong,  walk,  trot,  canter,  as another said Pony Club kicking him on.  If his rider sees the video of herself,  I suspect that she'll be rather embarrassed.

He should either be back at Ditchet,  or Hunting.  Failing that,  they can send him up here and I'll treat him like a King!  I can ride him out when I check my sheep,  perhaps!! 

It was a sorry display,  I thought,  of a horse which was arguably the greatest Chaser ever.  Those who have control of the horse,  need to be having a serious re-think,  in my modest opinion.

Alec.


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## Goya (17 December 2014)

Watching the video, it looks like they overdue the calmer, whichever one they used.


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## Goldenstar (17 December 2014)

Goya said:



			Watching the video, it looks like they overdue the calmer, whichever one they used.
		
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If it was do you think they would tell me which one ?
Tatts is a bit alternative ATM.


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## _GG_ (17 December 2014)

Santa's-a-scam said:



			The horse didn't want to do it,  it's that simple.  Everything was wrong,  walk,  trot,  canter,  as another said Pony Club kicking him on.  If his rider sees the video of herself,  I suspect that she'll be rather embarrassed.

He should either be back at Ditchet,  or Hunting.  Failing that,  they can send him up here and I'll treat him like a King!  I can ride him out when I check my sheep,  perhaps!! 

It was a sorry display,  I thought,  of a horse which was arguably the greatest Chaser ever.  Those who have control of the horse,  need to be having a serious re-think,  in my modest opinion.

Alec.
		
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But without a crystal ball, nobody could predict that so criticising it seems a bit pointless. 



Goya said:



			Watching the video, it looks like they overdue the calmer, whichever one they used.
		
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Possibly, but I don't see anything wrong with using calmer for an environment like that. Lessons to be learned possibly, but I don't think it was anywhere near bad enough to warrant some of the comments.


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## SkewbyTwo (17 December 2014)

SussexbytheChristmasTree said:



			I'm only saying what I saw first hand and hope I'm not being classed as "outraged" or "criticising".  It was not to do with comparing him to the dressage horse previously. Quite obviously he was bothered by something (most probably stage fright as I said first) and there was nothing Laura could do to keep him moving really except maybe give him a wallop which would have gone down badly in any case. The video posted here ends before he gets to the point where she struggled to keep him even walking whilst the commentators rambled on.
		
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It got increasingly uncomfortable. Racing Post promised a full write up of his appearance today, but I can't find it as yet.

It did make me wonder though. Wouldn't I rather see him out and about, team chasing and the like, like a good few of the other racing greats have got to do? It's such a far cry. Why did she choose dressage for him, and not eventing, also?


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## Goldenstar (17 December 2014)

SkewbyTwo said:



			It got increasingly uncomfortable. Racing Post promised a full write up of his appearance today, but I can't find it as yet.

It did make me wonder though. Wouldn't I rather see him out and about, team chasing and the like, like a good few of the other racing greats have got to do? It's such a far cry. Why did she choose dressage for him, and not eventing, also?
		
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I expect there's a very very good reason they chose a non jumping retirement 'job ' for him.
But it's their business .


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## KautoStar1 (17 December 2014)

Sorry I don't understand why he should be back at Ditcheat or hunting or team chasing or anywhere else except in the care of LC ??   
He was the greatest chaser of a generation no question but that doesn't mean he can't have a quieter life, still active and doing something meaningful but at a slower pace.  He spent about 9 years at the top of his game.  Most race horses have one good season and then they are finished.  And he was raced in France as a 3 & 4 year old, so he's pretty much been on the go for all that time, he's not had a quiet life really.   I don't know why Clive Smith chose dressage, but he's being advised by Yogi Brisner, so we perhaps should assume that the advice is good.  I think its unfair to suggest his 'team' don't have his best interests at heart.  I think LC takes the responsibility of having him in her care very seriously.

Its impossible to re-create the atmosphere of Olympia so no-one knows how he would react first time.  LC said herself she didn't know if he was going to boil over.  That would suggest he's chipper and happy at home, so its very likely he was a bit overawed by the whole thing.
Is very easy to criticise but I wonder how many of us would be able to do better.


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## teapot (17 December 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			I expect there's a very very good reason they chose a non jumping retirement 'job ' for him.
But it's their business .
		
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Despite everyone knowing he's jumping at home and jumping well too.

I saw KS at Barbury last year and it didn't really do anything for me watching a great example of a fantastic racehorse just doing walk, trot and canter for 15 mins. It's a pity that ROR don't focus on the likes of Denman to raise their profile. I guess they'll have their reasons though...


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## onemoretime (17 December 2014)

Hets83 said:



			I saw a video on Facebook and my first thought was that he looked like he had been given 'something' to take the edge off him.   Laura Collett had publicly said she was unsure about how he would cope with the atmosphere and being a person who regularly retrains and competes ex racehorses, I can understand her concern.  Mine would go mad in that atmosphere but think it was disappointing to see him dopey and not going forward.  Think his lack of impulsion made him look slightly unlevel.

We all know that ex racehorses can be retrained to a high standard in lots of disciplines, not sure how needed his appearance was if he did have to be given 'something' to get through it without blowing up.
		
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  My thoughts exactly Hets83.  He looked exactly like a horse that had been "given something".


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## joey&jess (17 December 2014)

Perfect-Piaffe said:



			It was awful to watch- everyone around us was saying the same too.  I had to turn away in the end- what was she doing?!  The dressage before was great though 

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I left halfway through. 3 rows from the front. I couldn't watch anymore. The horse wasn't happy, put it down to stage fright or something else but I didn't see the need for the pony club kicks and sawing on the reins. I'm not part of the kauto star fan club but no horse should be displayed as he was.


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## katherinef (17 December 2014)

joey&jess said:



			I left halfway through. 3 rows from the front. I couldn't watch anymore. The horse wasn't happy, put it down to stage fright or something else but I didn't see the need for the pony club kicks and sawing on the reins. I'm not part of the kauto star fan club but no horse should be displayed as he was.
		
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Very upsetting to hear this


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## forever broke (17 December 2014)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/equestrian/30516647

video clips and interview with Laura here - I can't hear what she's saying though as I've no sound on my pc so won't comment on it


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## RachelFerd (17 December 2014)

forever broke said:



http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/equestrian/30516647

video clips and interview with Laura here - I can't hear what she's saying though as I've no sound on my pc so won't comment on it
		
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Looks doped to me. Sweaty neck, unaware of surroundings, unreactive to anything rider is doing... rider yanking at the front end to try and keep him from dropping his nose to the floor..... I would actually prefer to think this was a mistake in over-doping rather than that the horse is this switched off and unhappy.

I do not know any TBs that would normally switch off in this way - yes back off the leg maybe, but probably look aware of their surroundings at the same time...


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## Swirlymurphy (17 December 2014)

Thanks for the BBC link.  Pretty much as it looked from the blurry Youtube video - he got stage fright according to LC.  She had worked him quite hard before hand hoping to avoid him boiling over in the arena, and he went the other way.  It wasn't particularly pretty but you don't have a lot of options in a situation like that.


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## Gemmabel (17 December 2014)

forever broke said:



http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/equestrian/30516647

video clips and interview with Laura here - I can't hear what she's saying though as I've no sound on my pc so won't comment on it
		
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This doesn't make pleasant viewing


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## ihatework (17 December 2014)

forever broke said:



http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/equestrian/30516647

video clips and interview with Laura here - I can't hear what she's saying though as I've no sound on my pc so won't comment on it
		
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Interesting, they showed the bad bits.
LC essentially said he got stage fright and shut down, disappointing he didn't show himself off to his best.
Apparently going well at home and pretty ready to think about competing but she was non committal about when - citing eventing horses taking priority.

I don't know, I'm pretty 'meh' about Kuato doing dressage. It doesn't quite feel right to me. But then like I said earlier I don't know the horse at all, one would hope the owner only had his very best interests at heart.


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## dressagelove (17 December 2014)

Poor Laura. Watching that video is painful. She is practically smacking him repeatedly with the whip and he won't go. Bit strange for sure. But like she said, much better that than bogging off and decking her. 

Something not right there though, seems somewhat extreme for stage fright, but I just feel really bad for Laura, she must have been mortified.


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## Perfect_Pirouette (17 December 2014)

Just watched this, the canter looked nice, didn't see any trot but as for the walk.....sorry, but I would much rather have seen her take the reins into one hand and give him 1 good crack then that CONSTANT nagging...and what on earth is with the jabby hands?! 

I'm not saying I could have done any better, but the flailing arms/hands is just bizarre.


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## Supertrooper (17 December 2014)

To me it just looked like he had stage fright, nothing more but I'm sure Laura knows him better than anybody on here!! 

As for whether he's in the right career as none of us own him then it's not really our decision!


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## Swirlymurphy (17 December 2014)

I do wonder why Yogi didn't try and help her out at all - call her over, bring the interview to a halt, anything.  I appreciate they had a time slot to fill, but he will have seen the trouble she was in and could have done something, surely


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## MileAMinute (17 December 2014)

Another short vid of him and LC: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jf-N5UdNGiA

That BBC clip is horrible. I'd rather have ended it and said he was suffering from stage fright than entertain the audience by keeping him going by using the whip and subsequent nagging on what seemed like every stride of walk!


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## stencilface (17 December 2014)

Thats not exactly horrific, but in hindsight I bet she wishes she'd given him a pat, 'retired' and called it a day


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## Fools Motto (17 December 2014)

I think she spoke well, and did explain what the horse did. I'm sure she had nerves as well, and will probably not enjoy watching the replay, BUT, these things happen. I do agree with above poster that Yogi should have helped a little, even if it was to call her in, and talk to her while he was still.
Horse looks well, but i too, don't get the fascination of national hunt racing to dressage with a more mature aged horse.


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## SkewbyTwo (17 December 2014)

"Stage fright" is a bit anthropomorphic, isn't it?

His racing career was hardly constant calm was it?

Also, if that were the case, why did he worsen so dramatically as time went on?


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## Sandstone1 (17 December 2014)

stencilface said:



			Thats not exactly horrific, but in hindsight I bet she wishes she'd given him a pat, 'retired' and called it a day
		
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Exactly. It looks really awful. Should have simply called it a day.


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## PolarSkye (17 December 2014)

SkewbyTwo said:



			"Stage fright" is a bit anthropomorphic, isn't it?

His racing career was hardly constant calm was it?

Also, if that were the case, why did he worsen so dramatically as time went on?
		
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There's a massive difference between the atmosphere at the track and down at the start gate - and that in a relatively packed indoor space with lights and people practically sitting right on top of the arena.

As to why he got worse - we took Kali to East Soley at the beginning of this year - he had been competing for two years but was having a particularly stressy day - he went into the indoor arena held his breath and shut his eyes (figuratively) and tried really hard . . . he got about half way through the test and then just lost the plot and shut down . . . got more and more backward until he was practically crawling down the centre line.  It was not pretty - and thank God he didn't do it somewhere like Olympia in front of a large, live audience .

The thing is, we (none of us) know why the horse (Kauto Star) behaved the way he did - we don't own him, we don't train him and we weren't riding him last night.  

P


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## marmalade76 (17 December 2014)

Stage fright my arse!

That looked like one thoroughly peed off horse to me and nothing else.


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## SkewbyTwo (17 December 2014)

I have just watched the Newbury video and it's not a whole lot better.

I have just edited this to add, I actually feel really sorry for Laura. They are not gelling, or something. But the pressure on her is horrific.

There is even a mention in one early article that she ruled out him doing the Olympics. Those are the expectations! Not fair on Kauto or her.


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## Sandstone1 (17 December 2014)

No we were not riding him and we don't own him etc, however I would have thought that such a  experienced  rider should have made the decision to call it a day when he was clearly not right. The kicking and yanking display was not pretty.


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## Elvis (17 December 2014)

Hmmm, I didn't find the BBC clip pleasant viewing. But as others have said we aren't LC and we weren't riding KS last night so it isn't fair to judge. I do however think it perhaps would have been better to retire him and say he wasn't happy with the atmosphere. Although doing that would have had its own issues- we as riders and horse owners would have understood however the less knowledgeable public and press might have responded differently.


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## MyBoyChe (17 December 2014)

Ive just watched the clip through twice and to me he just looks really reluctant to move forward, a lot of head nodding and tossing and just general disinterest.  Would that suggest something is hurting him somewhere.  To me it looked like a very polite horse trying to say "No".  JMO though.


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## Caol Ila (17 December 2014)

Video wasn't nice to watch.  But the pressure she's under is unreal.  I bet she would not have even ridden him at Olympia, given the chance.

Meanwhile, the BBC headline is: "Record-breaking Kauto Star is likely to compete in dressage in 2015, but will not take part in the 2016 Olympics."  I started giggling when I read that.  Ya think??  

The media is obviously on another planet, one where they know very little about dressage, or horses.  If he competes, it would surely be at Prelim or Novice which is, well, not at the Olympics, lol.


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## MyDogIsAnIdiot (17 December 2014)

What the actual ******* was she doing with her hands at 00:35 on the BBC video?!?!?

I'm not surprised the poor thing didn't want to go forwards, he was being jabbed in the mouth every step .




			I'm not saying I could have done any better, but the flailing arms/hands is just bizarre.
		
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I quite agree.


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## Goldenstar (17 December 2014)

teapot said:



			Despite everyone knowing he's jumping at home and jumping well too.

I saw KS at Barbury last year and it didn't really do anything for me watching a great example of a fantastic racehorse just doing walk, trot and canter for 15 mins. It's a pity that ROR don't focus on the likes of Denman to raise their profile. I guess they'll have their reasons though...
		
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Doing a bit of jumping for development at home is miles away from being sent team chasing or hunting .


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## minesadouble (17 December 2014)

To those experts  that are convinced he was doped please name the sedative he was given that doped him so efficiently yet did not give him the old 'swinging willy' 'I'd love to get my hands on that miracle drug!!!!


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## Exploding Chestnuts (17 December 2014)

Feeling Merry said:



			Horse looks well, but i too, don't get the fascination of national hunt racing to dressage with a more mature aged horse.
		
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Personally I think this "public performance" is more to do with owner ego than common sense, such a horse is "public property" indeed, the owner has made the decision to make his later years public, I don't know who advised him, but he is the owner, the man with the money, so really no one is going to "stand up to him" ... PN tried and it ended in acrimony.
I don't think we will see much more of this, I hope not.
I can understand someone taking on a nice ex racer and giving him a new purpose, as a hobby, but not to take a class horse with so many miles on the clock to be professionally produced, its ludicrous.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (17 December 2014)

SussexbytheChristmasTree said:



			I was there too and it was weird how he just stopped going forward. I think it was all she could do to keep him moving albeit really slowly and even leaving the ring he was crawling. 

 He didn't look completely sound in the trot when he came in at the beginning either.
		
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I agree with that, though it has hardly been mentioned.
The whole point of dressage is performance, a bit like ballet is to dance, it should be a pleasure to watch, and really this was not.


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## justabob (17 December 2014)

minesadouble said:



			To those experts  that are convinced he was doped please name the sedative he was given that doped him so efficiently yet did not give him the old 'swinging willy' 'I'd love to get my hands on that miracle drug!!!!
		
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She said she had given him too much work to keep him quiet, well he used to walk into the winners enclosure after winning the gold cup with a swing in his step. It is hard to give a thoroughbred too much work to get to the bottom of them. Oh and the miracle drug is called "Reserpine"


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## Exploding Chestnuts (17 December 2014)

minesadouble said:



			To those experts  that are convinced he was doped please name the sedative he was given that doped him so efficiently yet did not give him the old 'swinging willy' 'I'd love to get my hands on that miracle drug!!!!
		
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Why .... do you think this is what you want to use on your horses ........... people are always looking for the perfect drug, but is still a  drug. I expect any substance used would be legal, but really, is it ethical, is it within the spirit of the game?


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## bubbleburster (17 December 2014)

minesadouble said:



			To those experts  that are convinced he was doped please name the sedative he was given that doped him so efficiently yet did not give him the old 'swinging willy' 'I'd love to get my hands on that miracle drug!!!!
		
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I've sedated three geldings with ACP (Sedalin) and not one of them has dropped their penis.


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## tallyho! (17 December 2014)

Give him time..


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## minesadouble (17 December 2014)

bubbleburster said:



			I've sedated three geldings with ACP (Sedalin) and not one of them has dropped their penis.
		
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We lightly sedate with ACP for pulling and clipping and the two we use it on only need a sniff and theirs are hanging to the floor!


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## tallyho! (17 December 2014)

bubbleburster said:



			I've sedated three geldings with ACP (Sedalin) and not one of them has dropped their penis.
		
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Do thwy have penises?


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## teapot (17 December 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			Doing a bit of jumping for development at home is miles away from being sent team chasing or hunting .
		
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I know it is but popping around a BE 90 would well be in his remit though. He just looks hacked off in last night's various videos. As I said clearly the owner has reasons but pity he's basically being used as a PR machine. 

Or like a friend has just said, why demonstrate him at Olympia the evening of the highest quality dressage, where's the link between the two? It's not like at Barbury last year where he followed a ROR to eventing class. All seems a tad odd but hey he's not mine.


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## SkewbyTwo (17 December 2014)

Having now watched the clips and the riding close up, I think it's highly possible she's scared of the horse. She's tense and tight and shutting him down as a result. Her riding was inexcusable. The horse is so very generous. It's very wrong I think.


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## bubbleburster (17 December 2014)

It is not my experience that shut down horse flash their tails like that, only ones which are pissed off or hurting.


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## Pigeon (17 December 2014)

I was expecting something horrific before I watched the video. 

It wasn't that flippin bad. Mine likes to drop me and suck behind the leg in new places - it's so he can do an emergency exit at speed  It's a green horse thing, and a tb thing especially. LC is not a dressage rider, she is not going to ride like the people who were in before her - she is an eventer! And quite a short one at that  

You know what I think the issue was? She was afraid to use her stick, because of the publicity, and she couldn't do any of the things we would do to open our horses up (medium canter etc) because she was worried that would tip him over the edge. I think one well timed swat with her stick would have been better than nagging legs and would probably have got him listening and forward, but with all those cameras on me, I would choose nagging legs every time 

It wasn't the most graceful thing but it certainly wasn't horse abuse :O I admire her for getting out there! It's more than most people do!


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## charlie76 (17 December 2014)

I may be wrong but I reckon they doped him as they thought he would be sharp, the sweat and the shutting down is typical of a horse that's had a bit of sedaline. I have ridden one having had some and that's exactly what happened, its like the lights suddenly go off!


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## RachelFerd (17 December 2014)

Most horses don't drop their bits with a touch of sedalin - not under saddle at least. I would personally prefer to find out he had been pilled, then to think that he is that switched off and unhappy... have ridden probably 30 or 40 different horses with dope in their system (for various reasons - working in racing and veterinary hospitals) and its amazing how it can change different horses in different ways. But that tacky sweat on his neck and between his back legs is a classic sign, as is the tail swishing and general drunk appearance in the walk. Of course, I could be completely wrong... but the whole thing is a terrible advert for ROR now. Should have let me and Pete do a demo. I could have guaranteed airs above the ground and some dramatic high speed half pass


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## Pigeon (17 December 2014)

bubbleburster said:



			It is not my experience that shut down horse flash their tails like that, only ones which are pissed off or hurting.
		
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I did not watch that video and think that horse was in pain. I saw a worried, tense horse who was behind the leg. But who here can say their (recently off the track!!) horse would do better in that situation? I would be the first to speak out if I saw cruelty but I don't think you can form an opinion of his current welfare based on that clip. 

My personal experience;
When mine was last in pain (had a minuscule bit of grit stuck in his frog) it looked like his leg was going to fall off. There was much rolling of eyes and snorting and dangling said leg in the air. I promise you, I think you would know if he was sore. My tb also very much expresses his emotions. He will flash his tail and kick out with a hind leg if I feed another horse a carrot. He will do it if he pre-empts a canter transition and I don't let him go. It's a frustration thing. He also does it out of fear - if something really scares him, and I promise you it doesn't take much, he will run back, snort, and do the tail flash/kick. It's a quirk, it does indicate unhappiness, but unhappiness to him is witnessing a scary leaf blow across the yard, or not being turned out first or constantly hand fed fruit.  He has been examined to within an inch of his life and there's nothing physically wrong with him. Tbs are very sensitive souls. This was an overwhelming environment. I'm not surprised he didn't look at his best.

Could Laura have coped better? Possibly. Could I, or my horse, have coped better? NOPE, and so I'm not going to go pointing fingers. My first choice would have been let him live out in a field with his buddies, but many horses don't cope well with field retirement and get horribly bored. I know of the two I've kept retired, one was bored, and we actually had to start doing stuff with him or he caused trouble. I imagine his owner knows him well and wanted him to be in an environment where he could still keep his brain occupied. 

Now I'm no expert, and others may disagree, but I honestly wouldn't worry too much based on that video alone!!

Eta: Could well be doped. Sedalin before dressage seems ambitious, my babby horse can't manage straight lines after only a tiny dose!!


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## Pigeon (17 December 2014)

RachelFerd said:



			Most horses don't drop their bits with a touch of sedalin - not under saddle at least. I would personally prefer to find out he had been pilled, then to think that he is that switched off and unhappy... have ridden probably 30 or 40 different horses with dope in their system (for various reasons - working in racing and veterinary hospitals) and its amazing how it can change different horses in different ways. But that tacky sweat on his neck and between his back legs is a classic sign, as is the tail swishing and general drunk appearance in the walk. Of course, I could be completely wrong... but the whole thing is a terrible advert for ROR now. Should have let me and Pete do a demo. I could have guaranteed airs above the ground and some dramatic high speed half pass 

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Haha now that I'd like to see!!!


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## bubbleburster (17 December 2014)

Pigeon said:



			I did not watch that video and think that horse was in pain. I saw a worried, tense horse who was behind the leg. But who here can say their (recently off the track!!) horse would do better in that situation? I would be the first to speak out if I saw cruelty but I don't think you can form an opinion of his current welfare based on that clip. 

My personal experience;
When mine was last in pain (had a minuscule bit of grit stuck in his frog) it looked like his leg was going to fall off. There was much rolling of eyes and snorting and dangling said leg in the air. I promise you, I think you would know if he was sore. My tb also very much expresses his emotions. He will flash his tail and kick out with a hind leg if I feed another horse a carrot. He will do it if he pre-empts a canter transition and I don't let him go. It's a frustration thing. He also does it out of fear - if something really scares him, and I promise you it doesn't take much, he will run back, snort, and do the tail flash/kick. It's a quirk, it does indicate unhappiness, but unhappiness to him is witnessing a scary leaf blow across the yard, or not being turned out first or constantly hand fed fruit.  He has been examined to within an inch of his life and there's nothing physically wrong with him. Tbs are very sensitive souls. This was an overwhelming environment. I'm not surprised he didn't look at his best.

Could Laura have coped better? Possibly. Could I, or my horse, have coped better? NOPE, and so I'm not going to go pointing fingers. My first choice would have been let him live out in a field with his buddies, but many horses don't cope well with field retirement and get horribly bored. I know of the two I've kept retired, one was bored, and we actually had to start doing stuff with him or he caused trouble. I imagine his owner knows him well and wanted him to be in an environment where he could still keep his brain occupied. 

Now I'm no expert, and others may disagree, but I honestly wouldn't worry too much based on that video alone!!
		
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He isn't recently off the track.


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## KautoStar1 (17 December 2014)

Pigeon said:



			I did not watch that video and think that horse was in pain. I saw a worried, tense horse who was behind the leg. But who here can say their (recently off the track!!) horse would do better in that situation? I would be the first to speak out if I saw cruelty but I don't think you can form an opinion of his current welfare based on that clip. 

My personal experience;
When mine was last in pain (had a minuscule bit of grit stuck in his frog) it looked like his leg was going to fall off. There was much rolling of eyes and snorting and dangling said leg in the air. I promise you, I think you would know if he was sore. My tb also very much expresses his emotions. He will flash his tail and kick out with a hind leg if I feed another horse a carrot. He will do it if he pre-empts a canter transition and I don't let him go. It's a frustration thing. He also does it out of fear - if something really scares him, and I promise you it doesn't take much, he will run back, snort, and do the tail flash/kick. It's a quirk, it does indicate unhappiness, but unhappiness to him is witnessing a scary leaf blow across the yard, or not being turned out first or constantly hand fed fruit.  He has been examined to within an inch of his life and there's nothing physically wrong with him. Tbs are very sensitive souls. This was an overwhelming environment. I'm not surprised he didn't look at his best.

Could Laura have coped better? Possibly. Could I, or my horse, have coped better? NOPE, and so I'm not going to go pointing fingers. My first choice would have been let him live out in a field with his buddies, but many horses don't cope well with field retirement and get horribly bored. I know of the two I've kept retired, one was bored, and we actually had to start doing stuff with him or he caused trouble. I imagine his owner knows him well and wanted him to be in an environment where he could still keep his brain occupied. 

Now I'm no expert, and others may disagree, but I honestly wouldn't worry too much based on that video alone!!

Eta: Could well be doped. Sedalin before dressage seems ambitious, my babby horse can't manage straight lines after only a tiny dose!! 

Click to expand...


A sensible & well balanced post.   

Easy for others to judge and say what should have been done but easy with the benefit of hindsight.    I'm sure his team will have learnt some valuable lessons from this & approach things differently next time.


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## Pigeon (17 December 2014)

Sorry I thought he was retired in oct 2013, rather than 2012!! But that's still only a smidge over two years, to effectively completely change his way of going. I just think after seeing people's reactions I was expecting a horror show and the reality is a far cry from that.

It would be nice to see a recent video of him schooling at home. Perhaps then we can make a more informed opinion


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## Sussexbythesea (17 December 2014)

Pigeon said:



			Sorry I thought he was retired in oct 2013, rather than 2012!! But that's still only a smidge over two years, to effectively completely change his way of going. I just think after seeing people's reactions I was expecting a horror show and the reality is a far cry from that.

It would be nice to see a recent video of him schooling at home. Perhaps then we can make a more informed opinion 

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Pigeon - did you see this interview with clips?  http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/equestrian/30516647

It's not a horror show exactly but not pleasant to watch.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (17 December 2014)

RachelFerd said:



			................... that tacky sweat on his neck and between his back legs is a classic sign, as is the tail swishing and general drunk appearance in the walk. Of course, I could be completely wrong... but the whole thing is a terrible advert for ROR now. Should have let me and Pete do a demo. I could have guaranteed airs above the ground and some dramatic high speed half pass 

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sounds like FUN


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## RachelFerd (17 December 2014)

The BBC video is a horror show. And i am sad to say that, as I was someone who was quite happy with the KS going to do dressage with LC situation in the first place. Previous videos do not look anywhere near as bad (for example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYWCrNEDhmg - nowhere near as switched off)


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## Exploding Chestnuts (17 December 2014)

KautoStar1 said:



			A sensible & well balanced post.   

Easy for others to judge and say what should have been done but easy with the benefit of hindsight.    I'm sure his team will have learnt some valuable lessons from this & approach things differently next time.
		
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"His team" are very experienced and professional horsemen [owner excluded here], what they thought they were doing, I have no idea, no way should such a good animal be risked in some sort of competitive eventing environment just to prove a point.  He was a star, is a star.  The happiness of the horse should be a priority, and he clearly is not happy.  
I expect_ PN et al _will be watching this development, and will feel rather sad.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (17 December 2014)

Pigeon said:



			There is a history which you are not aware of: the trainer of Kauto Star recommended that he stay in the racing yard [in retirement], but the owner sent a lorry and took him away, it was an acrimoinious and very public parting of the ways.
		
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## Pigeon (17 December 2014)

RachelFerd said:



			The BBC video is a horror show. And i am sad to say that, as I was someone who was quite happy with the KS going to do dressage with LC situation in the first place. Previous videos do not look anywhere near as bad (for example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYWCrNEDhmg - nowhere near as switched off)
		
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I have only seen the clip someone posted near the beginning of this thread. Is there a link to the bbc one? 

He looks happy in that video, and she is riding better!!


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## RachelFerd (17 December 2014)

Pigeon - this is the BBC Olympia video - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/equestrian/30516647


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## Pigeon (17 December 2014)

Bonkers2 said:



			There is a history which you are not aware of: the trainer of Kauto Star recommended that he stay in the racing yard [in retirement], but the owner sent a lorry and took him away, it was an acrimoinious and very public parting of the ways.
		
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But ultimately both parties have an agenda, namely publicity, and it is fair enough that the owner has the final say. That's just my perspective on things!! The problem is with horses, there is generally not a 'right answer'. 

I am curious though as to why they chose an eventer to further his dressage career? Would have made more sense for him to go to a dressage rider? Was there ever the prospect of him eventing?


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## Pigeon (17 December 2014)

RachelFerd said:



			Pigeon - this is the BBC Olympia video - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/equestrian/30516647

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Oh. Okay. Yes. I see what you mean.

It looks almost like she's flapping the reins at him. What is she trying to achieve?? It's very odd.. I would love to hear her explanation. She looked quite upset in the video, I think she knew she didn't deal so well.


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## SkewbyTwo (17 December 2014)

Kauto Star's owner, Clive Smith, was delighted with his pride and joy.

"I'm very proud of him and I feel he can do it," he said.

"He won't do any three-day eventing with cross-country and show jumping, but dressage is harmless for him and he's intelligent, so he will learn the steps."

http://www.attheraces.com/article.a...lay&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter


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## Tea Drinker (17 December 2014)

The horse looks as well as he ever has done. Probably a hell of a lot healthier than when in full training when racing (tough on their old bodies and all that!) Not enough muscle in the right places. Not enough condition. And a brain wired to the max.

However, it's always a big ask to retrain a racehorse and to do pure dressage is a bit 'odd'. Not like he's some flashy warmblood after all. There was never going to be any kind of big second career by doing pure dressage. Eventing *might* have been a bit stressy on the legs, no wonder after so many years in training.

And why send a horse to do pure dressage to LC, I wonder? Why on Earth would YB choose LC, I wonder.
(No I don't wonder but can't say things incase what I think turns out to be slander!)

Like Denman and loads of other ex racers, they should have sent him off to a lovely small hunting yard. That would have been the best treat for any retired (race)horse. Hunting horses must be amongst the happiest in the world. Canter about all day with their friends once or twice a week with a couple of hacks inbetween. Better than poxy 20metre circles all day and certainly better than being retired within his race yard where all he'd have done was plod up to the gallops and back like some vegetable.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (17 December 2014)

Pigeon said:



			But ultimately both parties have an agenda, namely publicity, and it is fair enough that the owner has the final say. That's just my perspective on things!! The problem is with horses, there is generally not a 'right answer'. 
?
		
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I don't really agree, I think there was a right answer.
The horse had had plenty of publicity, he was a class racehorse and won stacks of cash, the owner is not short of cash and he had plenty of days in the limelight in racing, which is the goal of most owners of this genre.
The horse is never going to be a top class eventer or dressage animal.  
The racing trainer did not seek publicity by keeping the horse in his yard, he has plenty of nice horses, he wanted to make sure the horse was kept happy.
I don't know what the owner is wanting to prove, but this is a downward spiral imho.


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## teapot (17 December 2014)

SkewbyTwo said:



			Kauto Star's owner, Clive Smith, was delighted with his pride and joy.

"I'm very proud of him and I feel he can do it," he said.

"He won't do any three-day eventing with cross-country and show jumping, but dressage is harmless for him and he's intelligent, so he will learn the steps."
		
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See I saw that quote on something dated today but I don't know if it's been copied from previous press releases. Though the 'he will learn' comment is an interesting. Oh will he? Just a shame he's not been given the same life as Denman has, an equally valuable and successful racehorse.


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## Tea Drinker (17 December 2014)

He  should be hunting like Denman:

http://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/i...ploads/sites/14/imageBank/d/Denman-hedge.jpeg

Of course, there's no publicity in it for anyone, not CS, YB or LC ...but, KS would have a BALL!


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## MileAMinute (17 December 2014)

Tea Drinker said:



			Denman and loads of other ex racers, they should have sent him off to a lovely small hunting yard. That would have been the best treat for any retired (race)horse. Hunting horses must be amongst the happiest in the world. Canter about all day with their friends once or twice a week with a couple of hacks inbetween. Better than poxy 20metre circles all day and certainly better than being retired within his race yard where all he'd have done was plod up to the gallops and back like some vegetable.
		
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I agree whole heartedly. However, I'm guessing there isn't as much publicity in the hunt field as there is with dressage...


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## Pigeon (17 December 2014)

Tea Drinker said:



			The horse looks as well as he ever has done. Probably a hell of a lot healthier than when in full training when racing (tough on their old bodies and all that!) Not enough muscle in the right places. Not enough condition. And a brain wired to the max.

However, it's always a big ask to retrain a racehorse and to do pure dressage is a bit 'odd'. Not like he's some flashy warmblood after all. There was never going to be any kind of big second career by doing pure dressage. Eventing *might* have been a bit stressy on the legs, no wonder after so many years in training.

And why send a horse to do pure dressage to LC, I wonder? Why on Earth would YB choose LC, I wonder.
(No I don't wonder but can't say things incase what I think turns out to be slander!)

Like Denman and loads of other ex racers, they should have sent him off to a lovely small hunting yard. That would have been the best treat for any retired (race)horse. Hunting horses must be amongst the happiest in the world. Canter about all day with their friends once or twice a week with a couple of hacks inbetween. Better than poxy 20metre circles all day and certainly better than being retired within his race yard where all he'd have done was plod up to the gallops and back like some vegetable.
		
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I do agree with this. To me, LC doesn't seem enamoured with him. And I (and most people I would think) would be enamoured to have a horse like that, and be able to work with him or train him. She was very 'I'll ride him if I have time' when really it would be nice if he was someone's priority. 

Yes!! Send him to a hunting home  But again, my dingbat came from a hunting yard and he hated hunting!! He tried to stomp the dogs, wouldn't jump anything, and kept ditching people  He's a weirdo though, I think generally hunting is the best thing for them. Dressage was our last desperate bash at doing something useful  

Dressage does seem a weird choice for him. LC seems a weird choice for him. I'm sure there's more going on than we know. I imagine they had their reasons, whether they were good ones or not will remain to be seen.

Maybe Carl (aka love of my life) will intervene and give her some coaching?


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## teapot (17 December 2014)

MincePieAMinute said:



			I agree whole heartedly. However, I'm guessing there isn't as much publicity in the hunt field as there is with dressage...
		
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But he's not out doing dressage, he's out doing PR stunts at very select events...


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## pipsqueek (17 December 2014)

MincePieAMinute said:



			I agree whole heartedly. However, I'm guessing there isn't as much publicity in the hunt field as there is with dressage...
		
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Well I don't often comment on here but feel for the horse..and for Laura!  Possibly she over did the calmers/sedalin or whatever on a big night when it mattered to go well but it was a very sorry sight.  He did not look happy. Hope he can find a happy future, i'm sure he would rather go hunting than trotting round in circles though, bless him


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## popsdosh (17 December 2014)

i have only just got back to this in my opinion the horse himself is being pushed in an unnatural direction by human egos. The lad had had some tough races and owed nobody anything ,but for some reason another high profile change of direction was chosen for him.
A lot of us know the characters involved and on a personal level feel sorry for KS.


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## Tea Drinker (17 December 2014)

On the circuit, there are definitely reasons why LC got the horse. I can't discuss them here. That's not right.
However, even if he ended up with her because of these 'other' reasons, it actually isn't a bad place at all to be for retraining any racehorse. An eventer's yard is a happy half way home between the monotonies of both a pure dressage yard AND a raceyard (where he would not have been in training). He is after all a horse with a brain who eats, ****s and likes to do something meaningful and not some fluffy bloody pet to coo over. 

I just don't think that retaining a relatvely elderly racing horse into dressage was the right thing to do for the horse. It's just sooooo dull for a TB to do dressage. Just dressage. They ain't warmbloods. They are highly bred TBs! 
Not all TBs convert to happy hunters either. I reckon for 1 in 4, hunting isn't right for them. But they should have given him a go at it. That's the fun option for KS (or any horse). But heavens, imagine the stress levels taking KS out hunting lest an accident befell him - eek!


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## Exploding Chestnuts (17 December 2014)

We used to send a few older horses out hunting to freshen them up, but they had a professional jockey on top.
We had a retired world beater as trainers hack, I don't think even the bravest jockey would have taken him hunting! He got one to two hours excercise per day, a few hacks and sometimes led a few up the gallops, six months off in summer, seemed pretty relaxed., but he needed an experienced rider on the gallops. They usually get  variety of things to do.


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## RachelFerd (17 December 2014)

Lots of horses do not settle in a hunting home, hunting is right for some, definitely not right for all. Hunting was a NO GO for my horse - one time out was enough to prove it would have melted his brain and got someone hurt. Having seen Kauto's jumping technique on the racetrack, I would not want to take him hunting!! Don't forget that hunting is actually TOUGH on horses, bad ground conditions, badly presented jumps, not actually the equine heaven that many paint it to be.


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## Tea Drinker (17 December 2014)

RachelFerd said:



			Lots of horses do not settle in a hunting home, hunting is right for some, definitely not right for all. Hunting was a NO GO for my horse - one time out was enough to prove it would have melted his brain and got someone hurt. Having seen Kauto's jumping technique on the racetrack, I would not want to take him hunting!! Don't forget that hunting is actually TOUGH on horses, bad ground conditions, badly presented jumps, not actually the equine heaven that many paint it to be.
		
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There are many types of hunting country. Plenty of non jumping hunts for a start and even more who never tackle more than a 80cm hunter trial type fence. Any sound horse can safely get over those fences after a little reschooling/gridwork etc
Nor can you possibly know if a horse was suitable for hunting after a single outing. I would suggest 3-6 times before you can take an *informed* decision. 
Nor is hunting tough on horses compared to racing. More horses breakdown racing than in any other equine sport combined I daresay.
It would be ridiculously easy to find KS a hunting home where there are easy one-horse days where jumping does not feature.


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## SkewbyTwo (17 December 2014)

Pigeon said:



			It looks almost like she's flapping the reins at him.
		
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It doesn't though. "Flap" implies some looseness. She is jabbing him. Repeatedly, and deliberately.

She rides him like she fears and/or resents him. Whatever the reasons it is an horrific picture, and I'm quite impressed at the BBC's choice of edit.


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## marmalade76 (17 December 2014)

Pigeon said:



			I do agree with this. To me, LC doesn't seem enamoured with him. And I (and most people I would think) would be enamoured to have a horse like that, and be able to work with him or train him. She was very 'I'll ride him if I have time' when really it would be nice if he was someone's priority. 

Yes!! Send him to a hunting home  But again, my dingbat came from a hunting yard and he hated hunting!! He tried to stomp the dogs, wouldn't jump anything, and kept ditching people  He's a weirdo though, I think generally hunting is the best thing for them. Dressage was our last desperate bash at doing something useful  

Dressage does seem a weird choice for him. LC seems a weird choice for him. I'm sure there's more going on than we know. I imagine they had their reasons, whether they were good ones or not will remain to be seen.

Maybe Carl (aka love of my life) will intervene and give her some coaching?
		
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Totally agree, I thought it was an odd choice for the horse from the start; to do dressage, and to do it with an eventer, on a big yard where he will never be a priority, just a novelty and PR tool, which is a shame.


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## AdorableAlice (18 December 2014)

Looks like 10mg too much to me.


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## TPO (18 December 2014)

Jeez

I watched the first clip and didn't think it was *bad* enough to merit this outpouring. Then as several other posts help the BBC clip up as the *worst* I relented and watched it braced for a car crash but again I didn't see anything that would justify the online campaigns to get him removed from LC.

If you've never had a horse bail on you, never mind publically, then you've not ridden enough horses in enough situations! Whether it was the location, atmosphere or an assumed calmer OD things happen. I don't think anyone currently connected to the horse purposely decided to do anything detrimental with the horse and there's every chance they had no say in the decision for him to appear there.

I don't think she was jabbing him or taking his back teeth out as implied. Even though I hate flash nosebands I didn't see him being yanked etc To me the "flapping" seemed more focused on the loose reins against his neck while trying to mobilise/free it to get him moving. Yes he was swishing his tail and that can be an indicator of many things but in that situation it's certainly not enough to publically hang LC for.

An eventing yard seems like an ideal halfway house for a horse that's been institutionalised his whole life in a racing regime. If he'd been sent hunting, even if no disasters prevailed, there would have been the same outcry that he should have went to a RC/hacking/low level home. You can't please everyone!

I really feel for LC reading this thread; she is but human!


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## Lyle (18 December 2014)

Heaven forbid my horse ever sweats when being worked under saddle, for fear of being accused of doping! I feel for LC, it's the worst feeling when a horse shuts down.  I've ridden many OTTBs who do an amazing backwards while forwards impersonation, when you hit that arena, let alone in a claustrophobic atmosphere like Olympia. I don't think LC meant that KS literally got stage fright either! He looks like the noble type of TB that will internalize stress and tension.  Before anyone blah blahs about how he should be happy and relaxed, well, maybe when he's a fully experienced competition mount! He's a horse still, he's allowed to get stressed!

As to KS doing dressage and not barreling around jumping, I'm sure there's a very good reason that the general public are not privy to.  

KS is a lovely horse who will make a lovely dressage mount with more work.


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## popsdosh (18 December 2014)

TPO  I am not criticising the way he was being ridden as you can only ride what you have under you on the day.
However my gripe is with the way he is seemingly being used as a marketing tool and is clearly not happy with some of the things he is being asked to do! whereas Denman has taken up a fairly low key second career with no pressure applied.
I dont like your assumption that racehorses are institutionalised which implies that he is now being rehabbed it could not be further from the truth.
KS suffers I believe because this career path was chosen for what ever reason and I am afraid to say the connections will not change course as it is not in their character. To be blunt LC has to be careful as the owner has at least one more high profile event horse with her.So maybe she has little say!
I suspect there may have been a few wry smiles from Somerset yesterday!


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## TPO (18 December 2014)

Define "happy" without anthorpomorphising?

I would class a racing regime as institulised much in the same way as being in the forces. The majority do need time to adapt to life outside of racing. This doesn't mean rehabbed or recovering it means change and time to. Life on a racing yard and their management to be the best race horses they can differs compared to horses kept for various other reasons. At no time did I say "bad" just different.

Owners can more or less have horses with anyone they can afford. For whatever reasons this owner has picked LC. That's their prerogative and they must be happy to stay.

There have been FAR worse videos posted on here of users and pros riding without anything being said and all "reasons" willing accepted if the rider is deemed to be on the HHO popular list. I don't know, or really care, why LC gets called out but it does come across badly. We are all in this together trying to do the best that we can while hopefully learning and progressing. I don't understand what is to be gained by the bashings the armchair critics dole out. It wouldn't be the first time that the (this) pro in question has seen these threads and I can only imagine it wasnt very pleasant for them. 

I just don't see what's to be gained. I'm sure those close to the horse will have taken something away and do what they can. The hirse isn't going to change homes because of an online petition and a thread critiquing the rider.

Good will to all men and all that jazz...


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## popsdosh (18 December 2014)

I have been careful not to criticise LC as I dont have any problem on this occasion with her riding!
I am saying the connections do have a reason for doing what they are doing ,however is that in the horses best interest or not??  They have made this decision and chosen this path and their characters will not let them change course after they made it a very high profile career change! There are many who have been very close to KS over the years who were surprised to say the least with the direction chosen! These were knowledgeable horse people.
Please ask yourself what might be the reason he is where he is ,its not because LC needs a dressage horse!!


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## avthechav (18 December 2014)

TPO said:



			Define "happy" without anthorpomorphising?

I would class a racing regime as institulised much in the same way as being in the forces. The majority do need time to adapt to life outside of racing. This doesn't mean rehabbed or recovering it means change and time to. Life on a racing yard and their management to be the best race horses they can differs compared to horses kept for various other reasons. At no time did I say "bad" just different.

Owners can more or less have horses with anyone they can afford. For whatever reasons this owner has picked LC. That's their prerogative and they must be happy to stay.

There have been FAR worse videos posted on here of users and pros riding without anything being said and all "reasons" willing accepted if the rider is deemed to be on the HHO popular list. I don't know, or really care, why LC gets called out but it does come across badly. We are all in this together trying to do the best that we can while hopefully learning and progressing. I don't understand what is to be gained by the bashings the armchair critics dole out. It wouldn't be the first time that the (this) pro in question has seen these threads and I can only imagine it wasnt very pleasant for them. 

I just don't see what's to be gained. I'm sure those close to the horse will have taken something away and do what they can. The hirse isn't going to change homes because of an online petition and a thread critiquing the rider.

Good will to all men and all that jazz...
		
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Here here! I think that the only thing that LC did wrong was instead of quietly covering up KSs inattentiveness due to the atmosphere, she tried to address it and get his attention back. That would have been a new experience for her as well, doing dressage tests in front of an eventing crowd or doing demos etc must be a very different experience to riding a green horse in front of an Olympia dressage crowd....even some of the dressage horses lost their attention in that arena. I can see what they are trying to do by using a top racehorse to promote ROR, but maybe Olympia was one step too far?

Also to all those saying retire the horse, he is still relatively young and has run less that a lot of other horses who are retrained successfully, and I don't know much about him but maybe he's not sound enough to stand up to hunting, team chasing etc? I would imagine that his training regime at home isn't massive, after a longish period of time he seems to be doing basic schooling rather than anything high brow?


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## milesjess (18 December 2014)

I have seen her other riding clips and I'll agree she is actually a good, talented rider, no doubt about it. But, I watched her interview on Yard Talk on Horse & Country and she came across like she didn't even want Kauto, she was given him without any choice  and admitted the media attention/ negativity was intense. 

That said when she has been riding him in other clips he looks great, so surely she knew at Olympia when he shut off she knew that he weren't right and the style of riding she resorted to was horrendous. 

Yeah I'm sat behind my TV criticising, when I have my rider faults etc... But even I wouldn't ride my horse like that and I'd launch anyone who did. There's no doubt he's been gobbed, it's clear as day to see. 

I feel a bit sorry for her, but arguably she knew the attention she was under and she reacted to it totally wrong. Maybe Kauto is for her, maybe he isn't but I'm hoping she can bring him back out and redeem her performance.


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## MileAMinute (18 December 2014)

LC is a good rider, there is no doubting that. I'm not suggesting K gets taken from her, far from it.

However, I think it's pretty clear (from the clips, at least), that Kauto was not going well. Personally, I think the best decision would have been to call it a day and explain to the audience that he had 'stage fright', or was tired, or whatever excuse deemed necessary, rather than carry on parading a horse and rider partnership that weren't happy on that night. I think the audience would have appreciated that rather than be shown a horse struggling to walk a lap of the arena and its rider struggling to maintain it's pace. Publicity stunt gone completely wrong!


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## jellybaby2 (18 December 2014)

Uncomfy viewing. Feel sorry for both KS and LC....

I am intrigued as to the YB/LC link though. Anyone care to enlighten me by PM...?!

JB x


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## Kati*89 (18 December 2014)

My chap does a similar thing when we are out and about, warms up beautifully, powers around the ring, we go in and he just dies on me so I do feel sorry for her as it is the worst feeling, I feel like I suddenly lose all position and effectiveness and it all goes to pot...granted he isn't quite, but it did look like he had been worked hard before he came in as he was already in so perhaps it was just all too much for him...if they haven't got a workmanlike attitude and it gets hard they just give up!
I feel bad for her as it is embarrassing and there wasn't much she could do about it once in there!


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (18 December 2014)

in short, although im no LC fan, i dont think her riding is at fault i just think she doesnt *like* the horse or the pressure that he bought her, and probably doesnt want to do pure dressage on him either!

As good as she is (no questioning she MUST have talent to do what she's done,even on the top class horses she had), she clearly doesnt have the skills to keep the work fresh and happy for KS.

I am slightly irritated by the views on here that all dressage horses do is pound round in circles until their brains turn to mush-BS! mine(and many i know) hack, go to the gallops, do a bit of polework and small jumps, and work in the fields when the ground is good. LC needs to seriously re-think KS's work regime to make it fun for him, to motivate him to want to do it..........................i know how hard this was with CS but she can most certainly tweak a few things to improve his way of going.

He looked all right in the warm up vid so she needs to learn how to motivate his mind to want to perform to the crowds.....................the horse will not be taken from her so she needs to wake up a bit and make the situation better for them both.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (18 December 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			As good as she is (no questioning she MUST have talent to do what she's done,even on the top class horses she had), she clearly doesnt have the skills to keep the work fresh and happy for KS.

I am slightly irritated by the views on here that all dressage horses do is pound round in circles until their brains turn to mush-BS! mine(and many i know) hack, go to the gallops, do a bit of polework and small jumps, and work in the fields when the ground is good. LC needs to seriously re-think KS's work regime to make it fun for him, to motivate him to want to do it..........................i know how hard this was with CS but she can most certainly tweak a few things to improve his way of going.

He looked all right in the warm up vid so she needs to learn how to motivate his mind to want to perform to the crowds.....................the horse will not be taken from her so she needs to wake up a bit and make the situation better for them both.
		
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I am not clear why you are so sure the horse will be staying in the yard, what can he do now ...........  eventing or team chasing would be very risky for such a high profile horse, he is not really suited to competitive dressage, probably OK for ROR classes, but his owner is very ambitious, and really re training classes are for amateur owner riders imho, its  bit like turning up to the local unafflitated show and finding the jumping classes are filled with pro riders youngsters.
I  know it is not easy to try to ride a horse which is not co operating, for whatever reason, but they elected to go there , so really I have no sympathy for those who made the decision.
I can't really believe anyone wuld go to watch her ride this horse .......... what would be the point?


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## ljohnsonsj (18 December 2014)

I have been a bit disgusted by some of the stuff i have read, and the comments that have been made about LC.

The riding in the video was not pretty, the horse looks like it had put the hand-brake on no doubt about it. I have quite a few times took ex racers to shows and they have put the hand-brake on and its literally like riding a wall- and impossible to look pretty doing it, never mind being at olympia. I have seen much worse riding. So people saying she should of brought him out- okay fair comment. Me personally, i believe a horse needs to stay in an atmosphere to get used to it,albeit they might be a bit scared but they need to get used to it. Also, some people would of gone to olympia purely to see her and KS,she had a slot dedicated to her. It wouldn't of been easy for her to go 'er no thanks not today' in a show like that, yes some of you guys may have done that at your local show but olympia is a little diffrent.

Lastly, the hate campaigns and pages i have seen on several social networks are totally ridiculous. So the next time you miss a stride, and your riding looks a bit horrible you would like a whole nation of people to set up a hate campaign and get your horse took off you- No? Well why is it acceptable to do it to her! She made a bit of a boo-boo of riding a backwards horse and unfortunatley it was at a high profile show for all too see. It does NOT make the horse mistreat nor is it a good reason to take him off her. She is a young girl, she will know it was far from her and KS's best performance, but does she really need to type her name into the internet and see thousands of people slating her and saying the horse should be took off her for a bit of sloppy riding! I've found the whole thing totally blown out of proportion and unfair IMHO.


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## RachelFerd (18 December 2014)

Tea Drinker said:



			There are many types of hunting country. Plenty of non jumping hunts for a start and even more who never tackle more than a 80cm hunter trial type fence. Any sound horse can safely get over those fences after a little reschooling/gridwork etc
Nor can you possibly know if a horse was suitable for hunting after a single outing. I would suggest 3-6 times before you can take an *informed* decision. 
Nor is hunting tough on horses compared to racing. More horses breakdown racing than in any other equine sport combined I daresay.
It would be ridiculously easy to find KS a hunting home where there are easy one-horse days where jumping does not feature.
		
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Sure. There are a variety of hunts out there - I grew up hunting with the Berkeley, have qualified point to pointers with two different packs of drag hounds and I have also been out with the Thurlow, the Suffolk, the Essex & Suffolk and the Cottesmore - so the full range of jumping/non-jumping and so on. Of all of them, I did enjoy going out with the Sandhurst drag as they have good ground conditions and jumping is all well prepared fences and completely optional. As hunting experiences go, I found them the friendliest and the most horse-friendly too, and if I had to go out hunting, it would be with them.

However - my horse will never hunt again - sure, I could take him 6 times and decided after that if I had well and truly blown his mind or not.. but since I have a nice all-round competition horse who is successful in what he does do (and is a pleasure to ride) I don't need to take the risk. On his one and only time out he kicked someone else's horse (he does not normally kick) he reversed into ditches and nearly fell over backwards rearing, he sweated profusely and lost a large amount of condition (I have struggled to keep condition on him, so avoid these situations) he started planting (not something he does at competitions) and with all his pratting around, he was lame the next day with muscular strain. Although his galloping and jumping was fine, I think its fair to say that to avoid destruction of other horses, of himself, and of me, hunting is not something we will ever do again. 

I have also seen horses keel over with heart attacks out hunting, put legs through wooden bridges and be shot, be near-drowned in huge drainage rheens, break legs from putting legs down rabbit holes, and have rotational falls trying to jump gates.

I am only stating this as an example of why I do not like the *assumption* that every ex racehorse can happily retire to the hunting field. Some can, some can't. I had two lovely days out hunting last year, both on TBs, one with the Suffolk on a 4yo racehorse in training, who was exemplary in his behaviour all day, although there is very little jumping with the Suffolk. I also went out with the Cottesmore on a very experienced hunter and ex-chaser who gave me a fabulous day out hedge hopping and being a perfect example of a well-behaved hunter.


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## glamourpuss (18 December 2014)

Have there really been social media campaigns to remove the horse from her? Wow. That is taking things a bit far to say the least. I must be naive or have nice friends because I certainly haven't witnessed anything like this in fact other than a bit of disappointment at the handling of the situation I haven't seen any personal attacks on Laura or the horse's connections.

I was very uncomfortable watching the BBC clip, because whatever the reason behind his behaviour it struck me as a horse that just wasn't being listened to. He was struggling..be that with the atmosphere or sedation he may or may not have had and despite Laura's desperate attempts his behaviour looked to be detoriating. In my 'armchair critic/keyboard warrior opinion this is the time to change tack with a horse (maybe something as simple someone walking at his head might've been enough to get him back on side...who knows). I think that what has caused most discussion is the fact that they kept perservering with a course of action that the horse looked uncomfortable with. 

Sadly for Laura if she wants to enjoy the benefit that having the ride on such a high profile horse gives her then she is also going to have to take the analysis of her performance with him (from armchair critics such as me!) on the chin even if its not the glowing adoration she would like.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (18 December 2014)

Bonkers2 said:



			I am not clear why you are so sure the horse will be staying in the yard, what can he do now ...........  eventing or team chasing would be very risky for such a high profile horse, he is not really suited to competitive dressage, probably OK for ROR classes, but his owner is very ambitious, and really re training classes are for amateur owner riders imho, its  bit like turning up to the local unafflitated show and finding the jumping classes are filled with pro riders youngsters.
I  know it is not easy to try to ride a horse which is not co operating, for whatever reason, but they elected to go there , so really I have no sympathy for those who made the decision.
I can't really believe anyone wuld go to watch her ride this horse .......... what would be the point?
		
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because anyone who knows anything about LC,yogi and clive, and understands the politics of having horses with riders..........will know the horse will stay!


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## RunToEarth (18 December 2014)

RachelFerd said:



			Sure. There are a variety of hunts out there - I grew up hunting with the Berkeley, have qualified point to pointers with two different packs of drag hounds and I have also been out with the Thurlow, the Suffolk, the Essex & Suffolk and the Cottesmore - so the full range of jumping/non-jumping and so on. Of all of them, I did enjoy going out with the Sandhurst drag as they have good ground conditions and jumping is all well prepared fences and completely optional. As hunting experiences go, I found them the friendliest and the most horse-friendly too, and if I had to go out hunting, it would be with them.

However - my horse will never hunt again - sure, I could take him 6 times and decided after that if I had well and truly blown his mind or not.. but since I have a nice all-round competition horse who is successful in what he does do (and is a pleasure to ride) I don't need to take the risk. On his one and only time out he kicked someone else's horse (he does not normally kick) he reversed into ditches and nearly fell over backwards rearing, he sweated profusely and lost a large amount of condition (I have struggled to keep condition on him, so avoid these situations) he started planting (not something he does at competitions) and with all his pratting around, he was lame the next day with muscular strain. Although his galloping and jumping was fine, I think its fair to say that to avoid destruction of other horses, of himself, and of me, hunting is not something we will ever do again. 

I have also seen horses keel over with heart attacks out hunting, put legs through wooden bridges and be shot, be near-drowned in huge drainage rheens, break legs from putting legs down rabbit holes, and have rotational falls trying to jump gates.

I am only stating this as an example of why I do not like the *assumption* that every ex racehorse can happily retire to the hunting field. Some can, some can't. I had two lovely days out hunting last year, both on TBs, one with the Suffolk on a 4yo racehorse in training, who was exemplary in his behaviour all day, although there is very little jumping with the Suffolk. I also went out with the Cottesmore on a very experienced hunter and ex-chaser who gave me a fabulous day out hedge hopping and being a perfect example of a well-behaved hunter.
		
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I agree with you, and whilst Denman has settled wonderfully to his life after the hot seat, who knows what KS will do. I'm sad to see the beeb footage, it has really made me feel for the horse - he deserves to be happy at any cost after what he has done for the sport - and I was devastated he didn't stay with PN and live out his retirement at "home".


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## _GG_ (18 December 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			because anyone who knows anything about LC,yogi and clive, and understands the politics of having horses with riders..........will know the horse will stay!
		
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Agreed. I cannot believe how this playing out. It's ridiculous. It would have been the decision of many for him to be there and I don't understand the comment that he is not cut out for dressage....you just can't say that on the basis of a couple of appearances in a situation so far removed from what he is used to. Yes, things could have been managed differently, but FGS, this is getting out of hand now. The horse is healthy and being cared for very very well. That's what I care about more than a situation not possibly being handled as well as it could but none of us are perfect!


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## glamourpuss (18 December 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			because anyone who knows anything about LC,yogi and clive, and understands the politics of having horses with riders..........will know the horse will stay!
		
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PS is right. 

I'm intrigued what they will do with him now in terms of the PR stuff. Surely they can't ignore the fall out from this but I know they will still want to carry on with the public displays and, I should imagine, would be keen to show that it was a one off or just a bad day.


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## _GG_ (18 December 2014)

glamourpuss said:



			PS is right. 

I'm intrigued what they will do with him now in terms of the PR stuff. Surely they can't ignore the fall out from this but I know they will still want to carry on with the public displays and, I should imagine, would be keen to show that it was a one off or just a bad day.
		
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I personally really hope they do.


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## jellybaby2 (18 December 2014)

I do think a ROR display would have been better- someone like whatcanyasay that is used to that atmosphere, or perhaps an appearance from NMT and Fig...?! 

It would have early shown the different stages if training a dressage horse, and that TB's come in all shapes and sizes...

JB x


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (18 December 2014)

Fig would totally like to go on tour at Olympia lol! might only get continuous piaffe out of him, but sure as hell wouldnt be behind the leg lol!

hopefully, best case scenario, they can freshen him up and go on to further demos showing as happy and forward going again. I am 100% certain its achievable IF LC/YB/CS accept what has happened and try some different tactics work wise.


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## jellybaby2 (18 December 2014)

If fig did do some funky moves of his own, it would just go to show that KS did perhaps have some 'happy juice' before the appearance!!!


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## armchair_rider (18 December 2014)

Personally I think the decision to send him dressaging was very sensible - I can't see how schooling a horse to make him supple, balanced and correctly muscled is a bad thing. Given the number of times he fell/demolished fences in his racing career i'm not sure that hunting would have been a safe thing for him, assuming he was suited to it mentally. Certainly I don't think it would have been kind to put a healthy horse, used to being busy, out in a field never to be ridden again. I'm sure he could have stayed with PN and led a useful/happy life and it's rather a shame he couldn't.

However I really don't understand the decision to send him to LC when what was really needed was somewhere low key with a rider with plenty of time for him and expertise in ex-racehorses. So I can but assume that politics was involved as is being hinted here (and yes I would appreciate an enlightening PM).

Moving on to last night's display, of which I have only seen the BBC clip. The first bit on the clip looks pretty good to me but the rest looks awful - the horse is crawling along looking unhappy with the rider niggling away at him. Why he's going like that I won't pretend to know but it would be a real shame if he was seen looking like that again.

If they wanted a famous ex-racer to do a dressage demo then why not Neptune Collonges who has been out competing in dressage and, iirc, doing quite well. Or, as jellybaby suggests, an exracer that's used to that kind of stmosphere.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (18 December 2014)

sedatives and calmers are a difficult area to gauge..............Fig get calmers (not sedatives obv!) but its taken a LONG time to know exactly how much the day before, the morning of, and just before helps him relax but not go off the boil.

If they hadnt given KS anything previously it would have been easy to over dose by accident, and thats no criticism......................god if i had ever taken CS anywhere like that he would have been off his face on sedalin lol.


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## Carrots&Mints (18 December 2014)

katherinef said:



			Kauto was the greatest chaser of recent times certainly since Arkle. He was brilliantly trained by Paul Nicholls  and was no ordinary horse. This Kauto at Olympia is not the brilliant Kauto I remember.
		
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SkewbyTwo said:



			I have just watched the Newbury video and it's not a whole lot better.

I have just edited this to add, I actually feel really sorry for Laura. They are not gelling, or something. But the pressure on her is horrific.

There is even a mention in one early article that she ruled out him doing the Olympics. Those are the expectations! Not fair on Kauto or her.
		
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They ruled him out of the olympics the day he was sent to LC as hes definitly not the horse to be doing olympic level dressage - how long has it took Velegro to get to where he is now? A hell of a long time and a life time of training! It would have been ridiculous to ask of a horse that was bred for racing to be then be trained to do grand prix olympic dressage.

Also - think they ruled out doing 3 day eventing, cross country, hunting and show jumping because when he was younger he fractured his hock did he not? Wouldnt want Kauto Star the legend the greatest National Hunt horse in recent time after Arkle to do himself damage in such a tough sport, IMO abit of dressage here and there is the best thing for him. I follow Laura on Twitter and I she regulary puts photos up of them both out hacking or one of her stables girls hacking him out or him popping a jump every now and then. 

There has been a massive amount of pressure put on LC now she has one of the greatest national hunt horses on her yard, can you even imagine how stressful that could be? I think taking Kauto to Olympia with all thoses crowds so close and that atmosphere it must have been terrifing for a horse that is not used to it - talk about learning to walk before you run etc. Also, I think the BBC showed the worse bits of what happened and its a shame, go on youstube and search Kauto Star and he looks fabulous on all the videos of them both at home, even when theyve done abit when they have gone to race courses he looked a lot better than he did at olympia. 

Kauto star should be enjoying his nice retired life (which from what I gather he is) and doing the odd bit of competing at low level dressage! and people should not expect to much from him.


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## RachelFerd (18 December 2014)

I actually volunteered my horse to take part in Olympia this year (would have been the IJF flat jockeys vs, jump jockeys challenge) which was a speed jumping relay. Sadly the IJF didn't require him (think they found some more 'proper' showjumpers for it) but I can guarantee he wouldn't have gone in their and switched off. He may have been a bit wild, but not switched off. I for one would love to see a proper ROR display of horses that are successful in their new careers (like mine sort of, or like fig) doing things well.


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## Lanky Loll (18 December 2014)

Whilst I'm not entirely comfortable with the BBC clips, I don't think LC has done that bad a job with him.  There's plenty of photos about of her doing things other than dressage with him.
BUT what I don't get is why they repeatedly drag him out to do these displays without him actually having competed.... surely just getting him out and about to competitions would have helped him with the atmosphere?  He's always going to be more at home at the racecourse events as that's his usual haunt but getting him to places like Vale View or Addington or anywhere really would surely help him get used to large areas with distractions, and help them to predict how he's going to react at somewhere like Olympia?? Having ridden a pony that went into the NEC and did a good impression of KS last night I know how hard it is to deal with in such a claustrophobic environment, but just keep thinking something was missing from his prep for them to underestimate him so badly??


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## PolarSkye (18 December 2014)

armchair_rider said:



			Personally I think the decision to send him dressaging was very sensible - I can't see how schooling a horse to make him supple, balanced and correctly muscled is a bad thing. Given the number of times he fell/demolished fences in his racing career i'm not sure that hunting would have been a safe thing for him, assuming he was suited to it mentally.
		
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I agree fully with this.  




			However I really don't understand the decision to send him to LC when what was really needed was somewhere low key with a rider with plenty of time for him and expertise in ex-racehorses. So I can but assume that politics was involved as is being hinted here (and yes I would appreciate an enlightening PM).
		
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Both LC and YB understand racehorses and thoroughbreds . . . I know that some of the NH trainers get advice from YB from time to time and I'm sure I read that LC has been known to breeze racehorses - not to mention that many event horses these days (including some of LC's) are pretty much full TBs.  Politics?  I'm not sure about that - but I don't think that having KS at LC's yard was such a daft idea . . . YB and LC DO know one end of a TB racehorse from the other . 




			Moving on to last night's display, of which I have only seen the BBC clip. The first bit on the clip looks pretty good to me but the rest looks awful - the horse is crawling along looking unhappy with the rider niggling away at him. Why he's going like that I won't pretend to know but it would be a real shame if he was seen looking like that again.
		
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No argument from me on this.  It wasn't pleasant to look at - but it wasn't worthy of some of the very harsh criticisms being levelled at LC on here .

P


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (18 December 2014)

but there are LOADS of people who understand TB's (and actually i dont think you have to have TB experience on your CV to gel with the one in front of you, just be a kind and understanding rider with 2 brain cells to spark off each other....)
Ive never breezed a racehorse in my life and neither has NMT and Fig's doing pretty well!

If they wanted him to do dressage they should have sent him to a dressage yard...................what about Laura B? No pressure to keep the ride(as financially secure no matter what), and a more sympathetic and careful re-schooling you could not get than with her and Dr B? Her horses also hack, go out in the field etc.

as i said above, i think this situation is 100% turn-around-able but its daft to dismiss politics, if there were NO politics involved he wouldnt be in LC's yard in the first place.............


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## Perfect_Pirouette (18 December 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			as i said above, i think this situation is 100% turn-around-able but its daft to dismiss politics, if there were NO politics involved he wouldnt be in LC's yard in the first place.............
		
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This. I remember when I first heard about this and thought 'KS, a dressage horse? Well it'd have to be pretty high level dressage to be interesting to the majority so I assume he's with a top rider.' ......Then heard he was going to be with LC?! Whilst she IS an amazing rider, she is not a dressage rider and I don't see, other than political reasons, why he would be sent to an 'eventer' to do 'dressage.' That's like saying he's going to be a SJer and sending him off to Piggy French (though no doubt she would do a great job) instead of one of the Whitakers or Ben Maher?!

Just doesn't make sense to me.


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## Lanky Loll (18 December 2014)

Statement from RoR here: http://www.ror.org.uk/news.php#821


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## PolarSkye (18 December 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			but there are LOADS of people who understand TB's (and actually i dont think you have to have TB experience on your CV to gel with the one in front of you, just be a kind and understanding rider with 2 brain cells to spark off each other....)
Ive never breezed a racehorse in my life and neither has NMT and Fig's doing pretty well!

If they wanted him to do dressage they should have sent him to a dressage yard...................what about Laura B? No pressure to keep the ride(as financially secure no matter what), and a more sympathetic and careful re-schooling you could not get than with her and Dr B? Her horses also hack, go out in the field etc.

as i said above, i think this situation is 100% turn-around-able but its daft to dismiss politics, if there were NO politics involved he wouldnt be in LC's yard in the first place.............
		
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But there's a difference between doing Dressage (with a capital D - as in affiliated, Advanced Medium and above) and doing dressage (with a small d - as in unaffiliated, pootling, seeing what happens).  I disagree that sending him to an eventer's yard was counterintuitive in terms of his rehab - I'd say it was very sensible.  Yes, if they'd wanted him to do Dressage, he should have gone to Carl (for instance) - but, really, did we think that a 13-year-old ex racer with a dodgy hock was ever going to set the dressage (sorry Dressage) world on fire?  No!  And neither Clive, nor Yogi, nor indeed Laura have ever claimed that that was their aim.  The stated aim was (in YB's words) to ride him away and see what happened.

P


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## Sussexbythesea (18 December 2014)

I hope they don't do any more displays as if nothing else it was totally flippin boring! 

I don't want to go to Olympia to watch someone ride prelim movements badly I can see that for nothing at my local show - hell I can even do it myself!


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## PolarSkye (18 December 2014)

Perfect_Pirouette said:



			This. I remember when I first heard about this and thought 'KS, a dressage horse? Well it'd have to be pretty high level dressage to be interesting to the majority so I assume he's with a top rider.' ......Then heard he was going to be with LC?! Whilst she IS an amazing rider, she is not a dressage rider and I don't see, other than political reasons, why he would be sent to an 'eventer' to do 'dressage.' That's like saying he's going to be a SJer and sending him off to Piggy French (though no doubt she would do a great job) instead of one of the Whitakers or Ben Maher?!

Just doesn't make sense to me.
		
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You do know that eventers "do" dressage, right?  Changes, half pass and everything at the top level . . . 

P


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## Perfect_Pirouette (18 December 2014)

I just think all this hype around the horse needs to stop.

He had a phenomenal racing career, he's now been retired from that and is having a quiet life, pootling around doing bits and bobs. Can't we all just leave it there, why are they trying to push him so much into the limelight all the time?! 

If a photographer happens to get a pic of him going nicely at a local, unafill event or perhaps a lower-level BD event then fine, but trying to market him as a &#8216;dressage horse&#8217; is ridiculous and just puts more pressure on everyone.

He is not a dressage horse, doesn&#8217;t matter a jot to me or I suspect the majority of Joe Public, so long as he is safe and well!


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## Perfect_Pirouette (18 December 2014)

Of course I do, but they have 3 disciplines to focus on rather than one.

I can remember my dad  (massive racing and KS fan) ringing me up saying Who is LC then, was she one of the riders you saw at the Nationals last year? 

I said no, she is an eventer. Even he was confused.


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## PolarSkye (18 December 2014)

Perfect_Pirouette said:



			Of course I do, *but they have 3 disciplines to focus on* rather than one.
		
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Yes, and one of them is dressage!  I simply don't understand your point.  If they'd send him to, say, Joanne Eccles - or Boyd Excel (vaulting and driving respectively), I'd see your bafflement.  But they (and by they I mean Clive and Yogi) decided they wanted to see how he'd cope with doing a bit of dressage (with a lower case "d") so why not send him to someone who a) actually does dressage for a living to a pretty high standard; and b) understands horses who were bred to gallop and jump?  




			I can remember my dad  (massive racing and KS fan) ringing me up saying &#8216;Who is LC then, was she one of the riders you saw at the Nationals last year?&#8217; 

I said no, she is an eventer. Even he was confused.
		
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Just because your Dad (and hundreds of other racing pundits, not to mention the wider non-horsey world) hasn't heard of LC, doesn't mean she isn't the right person to be retraining KS.

P


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## Perfect_Pirouette (18 December 2014)

PolarExpress said:



			Yes, and one of them is dressage!  I simply don't understand your point.  If they'd send him to, say, Joanne Eccles - or Boyd Excel (vaulting and driving respectively), I'd see your bafflement.  But they (and by they I mean Clive and Yogi) decided they wanted to see how he'd cope with doing a bit of dressage (with a lower case "d") so why not send him to someone who a) actually does dressage for a living to a pretty high standard; and b) understands horses who were bred to gallop and jump?  



Just because your Dad (and hundreds of other racing pundits, not to mention the wider non-horsey world) hasn't heard of LC, doesn't mean she isn't the right person to be retraining KS.

P
		
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That is not what I meant.

I stand by MY opinion that if you are going to re-train ANY horse to be a 'dressage' horse then, IMO, it would make more sense to send them to a pure dressage rider. I am not saying LC isn't capable, she obviously is. I'm just saying that the pairing in the first instance baffled me. 

As I said above ^^ I couldn't give 2 hoots what KS does really, so long as he's happy and well cared for. I think they need to stop all this high profile malarkey right now and just let him try his hand at dressage and see how he gets on.


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## jellybaby2 (18 December 2014)

Finally watched the whole thing. With my hands over my eyes. It was atrocious riding on LC part...


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## Maesfen (18 December 2014)

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Give-Kauto-Star-back-to-Clifford-Baker/992962410719016


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## TPO (18 December 2014)

All the "KS going to Olympics" hype came from the mainstream media. The same place that said Katie Price was aiming for the Olympics and that Zara Philips races horses! They don't care and just sensationalise things for Joe Bloggs public who really don't care greatly about "horse dancing". It sell papers and is a nice story.

For whatever reasons the horse is with LC and he's doing what he's doing with the occasional public appearance. Why does he have to be "doing" anything be it affiliated or leaving the ground?

I know I can resent my horse enough because of his talent of lurching from one disaster to another and it's incredibly dishearting. To *have* to ride a horse where you can't do right for doing wrong would probably make me less than enthusiastic to speak publically about it too! 

The display at Olympia was for him. It wasn't a demo of dressage (or Dressage) or an Olympic horse it was of a well known ex-racer who is now a  riding horse. Dressage (or dressage) is just flatwork really and every horse does this?

I don't think LC or her camp have ever issued any grand statements about how they will be or should be doing things. Like YB said they are just riding him away and they'll see what happens; the same as any of us can do regardless of if it's a  4* prospect or an older horse out of training. 

Where's the Christmas spirit people? Some of this just smacks of being mean for the sake of it. The FB campaigns are disgusting and won't achieve anything.


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## Milliechaz (18 December 2014)

Have to say looking at the picture on the facebook link in maesfen's post he does look exceptionally sore in front of the girth.... rubbed rore. It maybe just a really badly caught photo but ouch.


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## PaddyMonty (18 December 2014)

Didn't think the organisers could get it more wrong than they did with the KP demo. Oh well.....

Not getting involved with all the arguments about the people involved. All I will say is that horses that have given their all should be allowed to keep their dignity when they retire.


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## dianchi (18 December 2014)

To me looked doped, the fact it worsened would also make me think that.

Equally however- no excuse for riding like that.

And any real pro rider who has had them shut down like that would call an end to it.
Let him stand in the middle and answer questions/do interview to fill the space if it was really that important!


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## legend22 (18 December 2014)

Over did the Sedalin I'd think!!


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## anuvb (18 December 2014)

Not every ex-racer would fair well with a pure dressage home. An event home where he could play with the dressage and see how he copes IMHO was a much fairer bet. I very much doubt he spends his whole time perfecting 10 metre circles at his current home and every time I have seen KS in the flesh at demos he has been looking happy and content, if a little fresh.

I for one feel, that public's expectations of what he should have achieved are often unrealistic. They either seem to want him to have retired entirely or be out executing perfect passage and piaffe. The reality is he is an ex-racer, carrying old injuries. Not every racer is suited to retirement, not every ex-racer will do as well as the Diamonds in the Rough girls.

Whilst I don't think the Olympia demo was the best thing for KS (or LC for that matter) for lots of reasons I have seen him look a million dollars at other venues. The public love seeing him in his retirement in the same way they enjoyed Milton or some of the other 'oldies'. The horse owes no one anything, but unless you're dealing with him on a day in day out basis it is very hard to judge what he should or shouldn't be doing.


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## RachelFerd (18 December 2014)

There is now this picture doing the rounds: https://scontent-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hph...=29110dd40babf95fea04a6e1c35f5aad&oe=55480749
Appears to be a very sore girth


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## glamourpuss (18 December 2014)

Ouch. That does looks sore. Personally I think he looks a touch over girthed....but then again its hard to see clearly from a picture. 
LC did post that he was just freshly clipped the day before whilst not ideal it might explain the rubbing.


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## ellie11987 (18 December 2014)

Watching the video and interview, and although it does make unpleasant viewing, I agree with what LC is saying to be honest.

Owing an ex racehorse myself, if I push her into intimidating situations she is unsure of, she will totally switch off, go dead to the leg and become frankly uncooperative and un-rideable. Embarrassing enough for me, never mind for LC! She must have been mortified at the time, as the pressure put on her and KS is unbelievable and totally unrealistic.

 Furthermore, being at such a high profile show she would not have got away with giving the horse a few good cracks as most would do in a home situation. 'Horse gets stage fright' is a better headline than 'LC abuses horses'. As Pigeon says, I'd take pony kicking all day long!

No I do not think the KS was doped up to the eyeballs, I think he is green and they were both totally unprepared for the atmosphere.


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## Firewell (18 December 2014)

Oh dear poor Laura! How embarrassing. I actually feel really sorry for her, there's not a lot you can do when a horse simply won't move. I think the hands was to try and keep his head  
up!
Perhaps in hindsight retiring would have been the best thing. He does look amazing though and the canter was looking nice. He'll do a nice test I'm sure. Maybe no more Olympia appearances though, not sure he's cut out for that. My exrace  horse can go behind the leg when nervous in the dressage ring so I understand, it took him a year or two before he moved forwards in dressage. Our scores were always reflective of the comments 'obedient but behind leg'! 
For all those comments about its a shame to see him like this... yes he *was* the best chaser ever but he's not now. Now he's an ex racer being retrained to do another job and for a horse that raced as much as he did it's going to take a lot of work to unravel all that and get him settled to a new career. I also suspect being the sort of calibre horse he is, he wouldn't have taken to being chucked in a field. 
Desert Orchid used to make me laugh, he used to take off when doing demonstrations!


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## paddi22 (18 December 2014)

as an exracer owner myself I also have had that kind of situation occur at large shows and its horrible.  I agree that if she had have used a whip it would have been splashed all over the papers as cruelty. LC doesn't usually ride like that so there must have been a reason, she's human as well, so im sure she can suffer stage fright too. 

i am bafffled how people get so upset about this, the basic facts of the matter are
&#8226; the owner can do what he likes with this horse
&#8226; all other videos show the horse working happily at home in great condition
&#8226; its on a fab yard, with a good rider and top class trainer
&#8226; it has often been remarked how kauto wouldn't be suitable for hunting due to the way he goes at times and his hairy jumping technique. 
&#8226; there are photos of him jumping and hacking at home, so he has a happy well rounded education

Considering the incredible amount of neglect and abuse of horses elsewhere, i'd imagine he is in a better position than a lot of horses in the world


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## TPO (18 December 2014)

paddi22 said:



			as an exracer owner myself I also have had that kind of situation occur at large shows and its horrible.  I agree that if she had have used a whip it would have been splashed all over the papers as cruelty. LC doesn't usually ride like that so there must have been a reason, she's human as well, so im sure she can suffer stage fright too. 

i am bafffled how people get so upset about this, the basic facts of the matter are
&#8226; the owner can do what he likes with this horse
&#8226; all other videos show the horse working happily at home in great condition
&#8226; its on a fab yard, with a good rider and top class trainer
&#8226; it has often been remarked how kauto wouldn't be suitable for hunting due to the way he goes at times and his hairy jumping technique. 
&#8226; there are photos of him jumping and hacking at home, so he has a happy well rounded education

Considering the incredible amount of neglect and abuse of horses elsewhere, i'd imagine he is in a better position than a lot of horses in the world
		
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This &#55357;&#56397;


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## justabob (18 December 2014)

Non of the ex racehorses that were at HOYS seem phased by the atmosphere, they were settled and showed themselves well. There was more than one in the arena, and that in hindsight is what they should have done on this occasion. There are many high profile ex race horses that have succeeded in other disciplines that could have accompanied KS in the arena and made a bigger spectacle for the audience and promoted the RORs. It was an awful and embarrassing display that should have been thought out better. I would have thought that some of the high profile people involved with the re training of KS might have given a little more thought to what might and did happen. The owner would not, of course have known any better.


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## Echo Bravo (18 December 2014)

So true Justabob, all I saw was an unhappy horse tail swishing all over the place and legs flapping PC style. He was a famous horse for his racing career, now he looks like a sour old horse.


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## Maisie2 (18 December 2014)

paddi22 said:



			as an exracer owner myself I also have had that kind of situation occur at large shows and its horrible.  I agree that if she had have used a whip it would have been splashed all over the papers as cruelty. LC doesn't usually ride like that so there must have been a reason, she's human as well, so im sure she can suffer stage 
i am bafffled how people get so upset about this, the basic facts of the matter are
 the owner can do what he likes with this horse
 all other videos show the horse working happily at home in great condition
 its on a fab yard, with a good rider and top class trainer
 it has often been remarked how kauto wouldn't be suitable for hunting due to the way he goes at times and his hairy jumping technique. 
 there are photos of him jumping and hacking at home, so he has a happy well rounded education

Considering the incredible amount of neglect and abuse of horses elsewhere, i'd imagine he is in a better position than a lot of horses in the world
		
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Well said Paddi.  It's nice to know there are a few sensible people on this forum!


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## Echo Bravo (18 December 2014)

Maisie2, just because he's well cared for does not mean he's a happy horse with what he been made to do.


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## Alec Swan (18 December 2014)

I've just watched a re-run of the '09 Gold Cup.  What on earth do these people think that they're doing with one of,  if not the greatest chaser ever?  It's gimmickry,  nothing more or less.  I wonder what Nicolls and the staff who dealt with the horse,  thought when they watched that sad display?

The person responsible,  ultimately,  is the owner.  Just what Clive Smith thinks he's doing,  is beyond me,  and who ever his advisers are,  they need replacing.

Alec.


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## justabob (18 December 2014)

Santa's-a-scam said:



			I've just watched a re-run of the '09 Gold Cup.  What on earth do these people think that they're doing with one of,  if not the greatest chaser ever?  It's gimmickry,  nothing more or less.  I wonder what Nicolls and the staff who dealt with the horse,  thought when they watched that sad display?

The person responsible,  ultimately,  is the owner.  Just what Clive Smith thinks he's doing,  is beyond me,  and who ever his advisers are,  they need replacing.

Alec.
		
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Can you imagine, in the days of old, someone  making Arkle perform, and saying how much better he looks now he is out of racing and not going in a straight line!!!!! The whole pantomime makes me spit.


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## popsdosh (18 December 2014)

justabob said:



			Can you imagine, in the days of old, someone  making Arkle perform, and saying how much better he looks now he is out of racing and not going in a straight line!!!!! The whole pantomime makes me spit.
		
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Exactly!!! imagine Valegro being retired and they think its a good idea to send him pointing about 8 fences behind everything else . The horse has won over 2.25 Million for the owner why the greed?
People who remember him from his chasing days would be happy to see him parade a few times! However the car crash that was olympia just makes true racing fans cry for KSs dignity that had a huge hole blown out of it there.
As an aside if the horse needs calmers to deal with that atmosphere he obviously has a problem with what he is being asked to do. He can cope with large crowds as born out by the winners enclosure after the gold cup,unless you are there you dont realise how intimidating that can be.


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## Johnboy1 (18 December 2014)

Personally I have never seen such a negative display of horsemanship in my life.
The horse is obviously doped, and I'm afraid the whole situation made LC and YB look like complete numptee's . If you are willing to show " how well trained " a horse is in a new discipline, you had better be able to step up to the plate, especially if you chose to do it at a show like Olympia, on a night filled with Grand Prix horses and viewed by a very educated audience . The welfare issues involved in this debacle should be looked into more closely...... And the owner of the horse should be asking questions , and not just accepting the answers that he is " fobbed off with " ..... Obviously something that the interview was supposed to achieve with those of us who sadly witnessed the shambles . Poor Quarto Star is all I can say , it was verging on abuse, and as it was at a FEI show, should be dealt with as such ........


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## Caledonia (18 December 2014)

Agree totally with Alec, Justabob and Popsdosh. 

Stage fright my **** 

Googling Kauto's name and images will tell you all you need to know about his ability to handle crowds. Olympia would be a walk in the park for him.

Clearly Collet and Breisner have a vested interest in retaining the horse, so the money Smith has can (continue to) buy her event horses. 

What a shame he's being made such a fool of, but not as great a shame as the fool they've made of the best steeplechaser of the last two decades.


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## SpringArising (18 December 2014)

Echo Bravo said:



			Maisie2, just because he's well cared for does not mean he's a happy horse with what he been made to do.
		
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Exactly this.

Just because he's ridden in expensive tack and gets a bucket of feed shoved under his nose every day, that doesn't mean he's happy or well looked after.

I'd be willing to bet everything I have on the assumption that he'd be much, much happier chucked out in a field with a companion or two.

And to those saying 'I can't see him being yanked about' - which video are you watching?!


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## Allover (18 December 2014)

The comment I hated from LC was along the lines of "I am very busy with my eventers and don't have time for him". EXCUSE ME does she know who He is? IMO this Legend of a racehorse should be somewhere where he is absolute top priority!


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## katherinef (18 December 2014)

Caledonia said:



			Agree totally with Alec, Justabob and Popsdosh. 

Stage fright my **** 

Googling Kauto's name and images will tell you all you need to know about his ability to handle crowds. Olympia would be a walk in the park for him.

Clearly Collet and Breisner have a vested interest in retaining the horse, so the money Smith has can (continue to) buy her event horses. 

What a shame he's being made such a fool of, but not as great a shame as the fool they've made of the best steeplechaser of the last two decades.
		
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Absolutely agree with this.


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## katherinef (18 December 2014)

Kauto's  "hairy jumping technique" won him 5 x King Georges 2 x Cheltenham Gold Cups  4 x Betfair Chases .... yeah all right once or twice he did go through a couple but  it didn't stop him!
Might be a fab yard  but does that mean its the right yard?


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## ester (18 December 2014)

If it were stage fright and not over doped then I do rather blame them too, he hasn't had any exposure to any sort of competition atmosphere in indoor arenas, let alone olympia. I don't really get the wheeling him out for big events/demos and expecting a 'performance' when he doesn't really have a lot of mileage at doing this.
I just don't think it did the ROR cause an awful lot of good when there are so many ex-racers doing much better things with amateur riders. It would have been so much better for her to call it a day and apologise and say he was struggling, the audience was for the most part going to be a die hard dressage lot who would have understood and wouldn't have been demanding their money back.


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## RachelFerd (18 December 2014)

"Agree totally with Alec, Justabob and Popsdosh. 

Stage fright my **** 

Googling Kauto's name and images will tell you all you need to know about his ability to handle crowds. Olympia would be a walk in the park for him.

Clearly Collet and Breisner have a vested interest in retaining the horse, so the money Smith has can (continue to) buy her event horses. 

What a shame he's being made such a fool of, but not as great a shame as the fool they've made of the best steeplechaser of the last two decades."

Exactly. This horse has seen crowds, he has experienced atmosphere. I struggle to believe he was not doped. His record on the racetrack is that of a horse who has never tired, has never been backwards and has always had flamboyance. We did not see THAT horse at olympia... He looked uncoordinated and unaware of his surroundings...


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## Echo Bravo (18 December 2014)

Ahem.


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## silu (18 December 2014)

Allover said:



			The comment I hated from LC was along the lines of "I am very busy with my eventers and don't have time for him". EXCUSE ME does she know who He is? IMO this Legend of a racehorse should be somewhere where he is absolute top priority!
		
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I agree with the above. What I am pretty sure about is, long after I am dead and buried KS will be remembered and rightly so for his truly wonderful career on the racecourse,as for those now involved with him, I expect they will soon be forgotten when their careers are over.The people who are in the best position to make comment about the very very sad exhibition at Olympia has to those who looked after him for many years. I'd really be interested in what they have to say but that wouldn't be PC unfortunately.


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## armchair_rider (19 December 2014)

Allover said:



			The comment I hated from LC was along the lines of "I am very busy with my eventers and don't have time for him". EXCUSE ME does she know who He is? IMO this Legend of a racehorse should be somewhere where he is absolute top priority!
		
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I agree with this. I'm sure LC and co are taking good care of him - if nothing else because he is so famous and stories about him will get a lot of media coverage/social media discussion, and we're seeing now how that can go. But I can't see the logic of sending him to somebody who, however good a rider they are, is compeltely focussed on other things and hasn't got time to do him justice. IMO it isn't fair to expect LC to prioritise him, she's a young rider looking to advance her career and she needs to be putting her time into horses than she can win at eventing with.

In terms of his handling a crowd, going into a small ring at Olympia before a public performance is very different to coming into a winner's circle after a race - the psychological and physical state of the horse is different as is the setting (lighting, acoustics, indoors vs outdoors). He certainly has shown that he can handle crowds outdoors but this was still a new experience for him.

I agree that the audience would have been sympathetic if she'd given up. I should imagine that the vast majority of those present were horsey enough to understand and sympathise.


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## SkewbyTwo (19 December 2014)

katherinef said:



			Kauto's  "hairy jumping technique" won him 5 x King Georges 2 x Cheltenham Gold Cups  4 x Betfair Chases .... yeah all right once or twice he did go through a couple but  it didn't stop him!
Might be a fab yard  but does that mean its the right yard?
		
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Exactly! Ditto "stage fright". He's won two Gold Cups. Go away.

All the chatter beforehand re "we don't know how he'll cope" showed the rider and 'team's' state of mind. And they utterly underestimated him. He was SO generous. They drugged, overworked and then bullied him. He tried but good grief, the riding is there for all to see and whatever we say, there will be repercussions from this, subtle and long term perhaps. But there has to be, and I hope for the better.

I bet there are plenty who would be more than willing to give him the spin he deserves out doing low key fun stuff. More likely to find someone in the hunting community who will have been in awe of him for many years now and would ride and treat him with the respect and love he deserves. He's getting neither of those things I believe. Horrible day for horsemanship.


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## EstherYoung (19 December 2014)

I feel quite sorry for everyone involved in the situation, personally, including the horse. I think the pictures that have been circulating showing a 'girth rub' are actually light reflection on a newly clipped horse, though - there is a pinky hue to the reflection on some areas round his backside, too, and you're talking mega bright lights and lots of red flowers around the place. The audience were so close someone would have seen an enormous raw girth wound, the size of what appeared to be on that photo.

I'd like to see him doing some low level endurance - ex racers tend to love it, as they can cruise along at a moderate pace but are kept steady enough that they aren't putting undue stress on their already high mileage legs.


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## Sandstone1 (19 December 2014)

Whatever anyone says , the way he was ridden was awful, you wouldn't expect to see someone riding like that at a local show, kick, yank, tap, repeat. Tap with whip, jab in mouth. Poor horse. I would also say he had been doped, the sweaty neck is a sign.
If he was not happy she should have called a halt to it.
It's one of the biggest shows in the world, not the place to ride like that.


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## justabob (19 December 2014)

Allover said:



			The comment I hated from LC was along the lines of "I am very busy with my eventers and don't have time for him". EXCUSE ME does she know who He is? IMO this Legend of a racehorse should be somewhere where he is absolute top priority!
		
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Yes Allover, I hated that too. It clearly came across that one of the greatest chasers of our time was with her under sufferance, when he should be someones world.


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## khalswitz (19 December 2014)

SkewbyTwo said:



			Exactly! Ditto "stage fright". He's won two Gold Cups. Go away.

All the chatter beforehand re "we don't know how he'll cope" showed the rider and 'team's' state of mind. And they utterly underestimated him. He was SO generous. They drugged, overworked and then bullied him. He tried but good grief, the riding is there for all to see and whatever we say, there will be repercussions from this, subtle and long term perhaps. But there has to be, and I hope for the better.

I bet there are plenty who would be more than willing to give him the spin he deserves out doing low key fun stuff. More likely to find someone in the hunting community who will have been in awe of him for many years now and would ride and treat him with the respect and love he deserves. He's getting neither of those things I believe. Horrible day for horsemanship.
		
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But in a totally different atmosphere doing a totally different thing, why would he not possibly get stage fright?

I have no problem acting on stage or delivering a speech or presentation in front of large crowds, but get major stage fright if there's people watching me showjump for example. The atmosphere and environment of the Gold Cup, with all the training etc he had and knowing his job well, is totally different from being at Olympia with not a single dressage comp under his belt, and his retraining still new to him.

My exracer wouldn't have faced crowds as big as Kauto, but he still would have had race atmosphere - and yet even very quiet dressage shows were stressful for him til he got used to it. I can definitely understand Kauto getting stage fright in an atmosphere like Olympia.

I can also understand the backwardness - Geoff can get like that too when overwhelmed. However I do wonder if the long warmup and a calmer may have been a bad mix too.

I do feel for him and LC, but do think she should have called it a day!


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## basilcob (19 December 2014)

Allover said:



			The comment I hated from LC was along the lines of "I am very busy with my eventers and don't have time for him". EXCUSE ME does she know who He is? IMO this Legend of a racehorse should be somewhere where he is absolute top priority!
		
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I completely agree with this. I thought this was a really sad comment. After winning over 2 million pounds I think the least he deserves is 1:1 with someone who treats him more like a pet. For LC I'm sure it's her life but it's also her job. Obviously there are lots of ex racers that go on to have really successful second careers. I just think it's sad that he's been put under this pressure to perform and be this flagship horse but maybe mentally low key events are his limit. He deserves a team to make decisions that are best for him. If you look on all the ex racehorse rehoming websites, they aren't all dressage prospects! The centres have taken time to get to know each horse before deciding where it's future might lie.


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## LCH611 (19 December 2014)

Thank goodness someone is talking some sense!


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## LCH611 (19 December 2014)

To clarify my comment above, it was supposed to be quoting paddi22's very sensible post.

I couldn't agree more with the poster who made the point that the owner can do what he likes with his own horse! Just because he is a famous horse doesn't mean to say that the general public have any more say over what he does on a day to day basis, than they do over any old Tom, Dick or Harry's horse......... I agree that the display probably did not go according to plan, but I honestly cannot see that it is appropriate for everyone to leap on the bandwagon and post such appalling comments about LC, her riding, her yard, her intentions for/with the horse/ her relationship with the owner and so on. I would love to see some video clips of some of the people that have posted on here riding as I would bet that very few of them are as accomplished a rider as LC! I personally am prepared to admit that I have made errors of judgement continuing on when it would probably would have ben wiser to stop and my own horses have had to put up with plenty of occasions when I am "having an off day". However I don't think for one moment that anyone could claim that they are abused/neglected/deserve to be with someone better as quite frankly they are far more fortunate than many equines in the world - even if on occasion they are "forced" to do things that they wouldn't naturally volunteer for -  like be schooled when they would rather be turned out with their mates, or be vaccinated, clipped & shod. I just wish everyone would put it into perspective and think what it must be like to be LC who came back from a riding accident that nearly killed her, has managed to resume her career, has an off day and now must feel that all of Britain is condemning her!


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## Starbucks (19 December 2014)

I'm pretty unimpressed with the situation but what I don't understand is, did they not think it might be an idea to take him to some places before hand to help prepare him??  If he was struck down with stage fright then surely it would have helped if he'd been out and about doing some stuff before hand?  I'm sure if he's good enough to do a demo at Olympia then he is a good enough to do some prelim competitions.  Sounded to me like she hasn't really got time for him, they didn't know how he'd react because he doesn't get out much so they doped him up just in case. Either that or he just really really hates dressage!  Wouldn't blame him.

I agree with people saying he might not suit hunting, hunting is hard on them!  I'm sure Denman has settled in nicely but he did nearly die from a joint infection.. after he'd been pictured jumping stone walls out hunting..??  Does anyone know what happened there?  I don't know why he has to be "a dressage horse" or "a hunter" or "an eventer".. he's a flipping race horse for gods sake!  Not sure why he couldn't have just stayed at PN's OR gone to a normal low key home doing normal low key things like 99% of other horses in the country..


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## Starbucks (19 December 2014)

LCH611 said:



			To clarify my comment above, it was supposed to be quoting paddi22's very sensible post.

I couldn't agree more with the poster who made the point that the owner can do what he likes with his own horse! Just because he is a famous horse doesn't mean to say that the general public have any more say over what he does on a day to day basis, than they do over any old Tom, Dick or Harry's horse......... I agree that the display probably did not go according to plan, but I honestly cannot see that it is appropriate for everyone to leap on the bandwagon and post such appalling comments about LC, her riding, her yard, her intentions for/with the horse/ her relationship with the owner and so on. I would love to see some video clips of some of the people that have posted on here riding as I would bet that very few of them are as accomplished a rider as LC! I personally am prepared to admit that I have made errors of judgement continuing on when it would probably would have ben wiser to stop and my own horses have had to put up with plenty of occasions when I am "having an off day". However I don't think for one moment that anyone could claim that they are abused/neglected/deserve to be with someone better as quite frankly they are far more fortunate than many equines in the world - even if on occasion they are "forced" to do things that they wouldn't naturally volunteer for -  like be schooled when they would rather be turned out with their mates, or be vaccinated, clipped & shod. I just wish everyone would put it into perspective and think what it must be like to be LC who came back from a riding accident that nearly killed her, has managed to resume her career, has an off day and now must feel that all of Britain is condemning her!
		
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I think the position they have put themselves in is only to be judged by the public.. why else would they be doing to demo at Olympia?  They probably indented everyone to be saying "oh hasn't she done a fantastic job".. but it's not really worked out like that!


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## Maesfen (19 December 2014)

Starbucks said:



			I think the position they have put themselves in is only to be judged by the public.. why else would they be doing to demo at Olympia?  They probably indented everyone to be saying "oh hasn't she done a fantastic job".. but it's not really worked out like that!
		
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Have to agree with this.  
CS is not known for his knowledge or love of horses but he is known to love the publicity surrounding success; hopefully, this has back-fired on him big style; I mean to say, can you think of any other owner that would like it known for their horses to be treated that way in front of such a large audience?


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## Swirlymurphy (19 December 2014)

Starbucks said:



			I think the position they have put themselves in is only to be judged by the public.. why else would they be doing to demo at Olympia?  They probably indented everyone to be saying "oh hasn't she done a fantastic job".. but it's not really worked out like that!
		
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Bear in mind that LC is only the rider, she may well have very little say in what the horse does or where he goes.  I'm not sure she would have chosen such a high profile indoor demo following a bunch of GP dressage horses of her own free will.


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## PolarSkye (19 December 2014)

Swirlymurphy said:



			Bear in mind that LC is only the rider, she may well have very little say in what the horse does or where he goes.  I'm not sure she would have chosen such a high profile indoor demo following a bunch of GP dressage horses of her own free will.
		
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An excellent point.

P


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## SkewbyTwo (19 December 2014)

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/horse-racing/kauto-star-never-going-dressage-4833939


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## Starbucks (19 December 2014)

Swirlymurphy said:



			Bear in mind that LC is only the rider, she may well have very little say in what the horse does or where he goes.  I'm not sure she would have chosen such a high profile indoor demo following a bunch of GP dressage horses of her own free will.
		
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I'm not saying it's all down to LC, when I say "they" I mean the whole team of owner, rider and then Yogi, whatever his involvement is.  The point is LC and KS have been put in a position where they are going to be judged publicly.  Now it's all gone a bit tits up!  If you put yourself out there with a horse like KS and make a mess off it what do you expect to happen.  

Just doesn't sound like they have the horses best interests at heart.


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## Maesfen (19 December 2014)

Starbucks said:



			Just doesn't sound like they have the horses best interests at heart.
		
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That's it in a nutshell.


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## armchair_rider (19 December 2014)

Starbucks said:



			I'm not saying it's all down to LC, when I say "they" I mean the whole team of owner, rider and then Yogi, whatever his involvement is.  The point is LC and KS have been put in a position where they are going to be judged publicly.  Now it's all gone a bit tits up!  If you put yourself out there with a horse like KS and make a mess off it what do you expect to happen.  

Just doesn't sound like they have the horses best interests at heart.
		
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Agree 100%

I assume that if the will had been there the horse could have stayed at PNs, being treated like a king but being regularly schooled (and possibly competed) in dressage by somebody with the time to do him justice.


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## MyDogIsAnIdiot (19 December 2014)

Very good article from E-Venting on the subject: http://e-venting.co.uk/2014/12/kauto-star-whats-all-the-fuss-about/


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## Maesfen (19 December 2014)

Great article from Kerry, well worth a read and further publication.  ^^


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## MadisonBelle (19 December 2014)

TPO said:



			Jeez

I watched the first clip and didn't think it was *bad* enough to merit this outpouring. Then as several other posts help the BBC clip up as the *worst* I relented and watched it braced for a car crash but again I didn't see anything that would justify the online campaigns to get him removed from LC.

If you've never had a horse bail on you, never mind publically, then you've not ridden enough horses in enough situations! Whether it was the location, atmosphere or an assumed calmer OD things happen. I don't think anyone currently connected to the horse purposely decided to do anything detrimental with the horse and there's every chance they had no say in the decision for him to appear there.

I don't think she was jabbing him or taking his back teeth out as implied. Even though I hate flash nosebands I didn't see him being yanked etc To me the "flapping" seemed more focused on the loose reins against his neck while trying to mobilise/free it to get him moving. Yes he was swishing his tail and that can be an indicator of many things but in that situation it's certainly not enough to publically hang LC for.

An eventing yard seems like an ideal halfway house for a horse that's been institutionalised his whole life in a racing regime. If he'd been sent hunting, even if no disasters prevailed, there would have been the same outcry that he should have went to a RC/hacking/low level home. You can't please everyone!

I really feel for LC reading this thread; she is but human!
		
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^^ This totally................


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## ihatework (19 December 2014)

MyDogIsAnIdiot said:



			Very good article from E-Venting on the subject: http://e-venting.co.uk/2014/12/kauto-star-whats-all-the-fuss-about/

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Very accurate reflection of the situation IMO


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## Pocket.Rocket (19 December 2014)

Pigeon said:



			When mine was last in pain (had a minuscule bit of grit stuck in his frog) it looked like his leg was going to fall off. There was much rolling of eyes and snorting and dangling said leg in the air. I promise you, I think you would know if he was sore. My tb also very much expresses his emotions. He will flash his tail and kick out with a hind leg if I feed another horse a carrot. He will do it if he pre-empts a canter transition and I don't let him go. It's a frustration thing. He also does it out of fear - if something really scares him, and I promise you it doesn't take much, he will run back, snort, and do the tail flash/kick. It's a quirk, it does indicate unhappiness, but unhappiness to him is witnessing a scary leaf blow across the yard, or not being turned out first or constantly hand fed fruit.  He has been examined to within an inch of his life and there's nothing physically wrong with him. Tbs are very sensitive souls. This was an overwhelming environment. I'm not surprised he didn't look at his best.
		
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This made me laugh,  must be related to mine!

Mine once had what can only be described as a fit: threw herself onto the ground, making awful noises, groaning.   Got the vet out within 30 minutes,  I truly thought she was dying or something had gone seriously wrong.  Vet gave her a painkiller and 10 minutes later she was stood munching haylage happy as larry.  She had pulled something....     

Freaks out at injections, wont let you touch the slightest injury.   Drama queen with a capital D!


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## LCH611 (19 December 2014)

SkewbyTwo said:



http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/horse-racing/kauto-star-never-going-dressage-4833939

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It's a sad day when the internet hysteria has reached such a head of steam that it is the Mirror that is making most sense.......


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## Lanky Loll (19 December 2014)

Well said Kerry, I really think Yogi should have done more to help the situation instead of prolonging the agony.


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## justabob (19 December 2014)

LCH611 said:



			It's a sad day when the internet hysteria has reached such a head of steam that it is the Mirror that is making most sense.......
		
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That is your opinion, and a tabloid that knows very little about equines, and makes no sense at all to anyone that does not read the Mirror on a daily basis.


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## SkewbyTwo (19 December 2014)

Lanky Loll said:



			Well said Kerry, I really think Yogi should have done more to help the situation instead of prolonging the agony.
		
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I was baffled by this and my opinion of him has changed dramatically I have to say. This has done him, LC, dressage and RoR no favours. I don't care about all that as much as the horse. The owner is at fault here and the horse will be a pawn for his ego for some time. My heart bleeds for a horse who has done what he has and who now appears to be viewed as a necessary evil by his rider, for the sake of her career.


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## katherinef (19 December 2014)

SkewbyTwo said:



			I was baffled by this and my opinion of him has changed dramatically I have to say. This has done him, LC, dressage and RoR no favours. I don't care about all that as much as the horse. The owner is at fault here and the horse will be a pawn for his ego for some time. My heart bleeds for a horse who has done what he has and who now appears to be viewed as a necessary evil by his rider, for the sake of her career.
		
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well said


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## mle22 (19 December 2014)

What a storm in a teacup!!


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## Toby1Konoby (19 December 2014)

My boys dont expose themselves either!!


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## Caol Ila (20 December 2014)

What, so is there some kind of deal worked out between Laura Collette and Kauto's owner -- he will buy top eventers for her to ride if she also rides this horse, who isn't ever going to be a top eventer.


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## Dunlin (20 December 2014)

I think the whole thing has been blown out of proportion. Does anyone else remember Milton being paraded around after his retirement and having to do his "party trick" which was to rear on command? I saw him at Olympia and he didn't look very happy, but rather than judge and scream abuse all over the place I just remembered that I saw him for 10 minutes on 1 day, I'm pretty sure any one of the horses and ponies here can look miserable and pee'd off for at least 10 minutes a day and that's without being in an enormous atmosphere!

The pressure was on Laura, Kauto and Yogi to perform for the paying public, he may have been fine warming up, we don't know that but either way Laura tried her best and rather than continue and push she did in fact bring him back to walk. If this kind of thing continues then that's a different matter but at the moment I cannot see any issues.


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## Alec Swan (20 December 2014)

Though I missed the programme,  I understand that there was a piece on Ch4's Morning Line.  Did anyone see it?  What was the verdict?

Alec.


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## Alec Swan (20 December 2014)

Dunlin said:



			&#8230;&#8230;..

The pressure was on Laura, Kauto and Yogi to perform for the paying public, &#8230;&#8230;.. .
		
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Who do you suppose applied the 'pressure'?

Alec.


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## khalswitz (20 December 2014)

Santa's-a-scam said:



			Who do you suppose applied the 'pressure'?

Alec.
		
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Public expectation? Look what the reaction is to a bad demo...


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## Echo Bravo (20 December 2014)

Watched Morning line and I think they would liked to have said more than they did, but couldn't.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (20 December 2014)

Echo Bravo said:



			Watched Morning line and I think they would liked to have said more than they did, but couldn't.
		
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I missed it, what did they say , even to comment was  .. to comment ..............


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## georgiegirl (20 December 2014)

Only just seen the video for the first time since all this kicked off.....

Awful viewing. Fairly obvious he was doped from watching that video and hes gone sleepier than they imagined he would do. Horses who back off the leg and shut down because they find an arena/crowd scary will back off the leg but still tend to look alert at what is going on around them. 

Like others have said - they should have just declared him as not being fit for appearance rather than the show that followed. I imagine the only reason they couldnt was due to pressures coming from elsewhere.

I very much respect Laura as a fantastic jockey with her long list of achievements but this display leaves me really really confused?!?!What the actual F?!?


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## ester (20 December 2014)

Morning line was just along the lines of too much made of it, I'm nervous at presenting as it is my second career so he was bound to be nervous sort of thing, and bound to look worse than the top level dressage horses - kind of missed the point IMO. I just rolled my eyes at them essentially suggesting everyone who has commented on it is over reacting and they sure he looked after v. well (don't think anyone suggested he isn't).


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## hackneylass2 (21 December 2014)

Having just watched the video, all I can say is that I would have retired gracefully rather than have to revert to 'pony club' stylee jabs and kicks.  If your horse is not 'with you' - for whatever reason - it's only going to go from bad to worse.
Whatever the reason, such a public show is not what anyone wants to see.


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