# How to stop puppy from biting



## Doggo01 (23 November 2017)

I have a GSD puppy who is just over 5 months old. She very lively (as is any other puppy who is her age). She is still nipping and biting quite badly at the moment and as you can imagine, really hurting us due to her size. Its been a long time since Ive had a GSD as a pup and so I am looking for some advice on whether it is normal to bite at this age and how can I work to get her out of it. 
I understand its all part of having a puppy but she is leaving quite bad marks when she bites and I really want to set her up with the right start. Thanks in advance.


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## pippixox (24 November 2017)

I think you need to be firm so they know not to do it, but then show them what to do.... I fostered a puppy who was nearly 9 months old and he was still mouthing and teething a lot, but as long as he had a decent chew like stag bar he was fine. Occasionally he would find something else to bite or chew and I would redirect him to a toy. 

also she could sometimes be doing it out of boredom, so make sure she is stimulated enough with walks and games

i'm pretty sure GSD puppies are known as Land sharks!!!


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## Fiona (24 November 2017)

Yelp yourself,  and then redirect to something she CAN chew...

Every time. 

Our Lakeland had teeth like a piranha  

Fiona


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## Pearlsasinger (24 November 2017)

Why are you letting her bite you?  Tell her NO! sharply and remove your hand, if that's what she is biting.  By all means, give her a toy to distract her but don't let it be a reward for biting you.  Pups, of any breed, do chew but the owner must stop them.  Make sure that she has plenty of chewy toys to play with.

ETA, please do NOT yelp that could encourage her to bite, if she thinks you are playing, or if she thinks that she is winning her game.  You are not trying to appeal to her better nature, you are teaching her that she MUST NOT bite.


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## tda (24 November 2017)

Fiona said:



			Yelp yourself,  and then redirect to something she CAN chew...

Every time. 

Our Lakeland had teeth like a piranha  

Fiona
		
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Yep I used to yelp loudly too &#65533;&#65533;


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## {97702} (24 November 2017)

I am old fashioned - I would avoid giving the puppy the opportunity to bite me, and if it did happen I would smack said puppy lightly on the bum and say firmly 'NO!' to reinforce that this behaviour is not allowed


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## Equi (24 November 2017)

If she bites, move away from her and ignore her until shes calm again. Biting is totally natural, its how dogs play, but she needs to know you are not a dog therfore not willing to play like a dog. Cross your arms and stand with your back to her, or remove her from the room until she knows one mouth is one too much.


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## TheresaW (24 November 2017)

Luna is going through that stage now, same age but a husky. She gets told a sharp no and hand/arm is removed. She doesnt bite hard thankfully, has never left a mark. Her and our other dog do play fight and bite each other a lot, and as well as the toys they have to chew, it is working for us.


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## PapaverFollis (24 November 2017)

I found the online article "the bite stops here" by Dr Ian Dunbar an excellent resource when mine were pups.


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## ILuvCowparsely (24 November 2017)

Doggo01 said:



			I have a GSD puppy who is just over 5 months old. She very lively (as is any other puppy who is her age). She is still nipping and biting quite badly at the moment and as you can imagine, really hurting us due to her size. It&#8217;s been a long time since I&#8217;ve had a GSD as a pup and so I am looking for some advice on whether it is normal to bite at this age and how can I work to get her out of it. 
I understand it&#8217;s all part of having a puppy but she is leaving quite bad marks when she bites and I really want to set her up with the right start. Thanks in advance.
		
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I used to use my fingers and tap their nose and say NO!! in a firm voice. Move your hand then ignore him till he calms down.   Have a look at Caesar Milan for nay tips


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## {97702} (24 November 2017)

ILuvCowparsely said:



			I used to use my fingers and tap their nose and say NO!! in a firm voice. Move your hand then ignore him till he calms down.   Have a look at Caesar Milan for nay tips
		
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Sorry I would NEVER recommend Caesar Milan - he is a complete idiot who has been proven to be such!!!  Use common sense instead, please...


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## JillA (24 November 2017)

Puppies learn bite inhibition from their litter mates - each time they bite too hard and hurt, the other puppy squeals, and the biter knows he has hurt and needs to be a little softer. 
When the puppy bites you, if you squeal, apart from feeling like an idiot, you have continued to enable him to learn that he has just bitten too hard. Do it every time he bites hard enough to hurt and he will learn to inhibit his bite to a level that no longer causes any harm.
It works. I learned it from Dr Ian Dunbar, one of the "old school" behaviourists and have used it successfully several times


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## SusieT (24 November 2017)

Don't smack them - it's just the resource of those who don't know how to positively reinforce. Don't let her get any fun out of biting you. Biting means you get up and leave the room or area - you had to show her it doesn't reward her to bite . If its biting because she's bored play with her, give her a toy etc. replace your hand with a chew. At 5 months you'd nearly hope she'd be out of it so I'd consider a good positive trainer/help to show you the way.
Smacking gains nothing.


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## Moobli (24 November 2017)

The way I deal with inappropriate biting is to have a toy to give to pup as soon as they start mouthing.  Immediately instigate a game with the toy and redirect them from your hand/leg to the toy.

Is your pup having plenty of appropriate chewing opportunities throughout the day (raw bones, stuffed kongs etc)?  Pups need to bite and so by providing alternatives three or four times a day you are allowing them to perform this necessary action. 

Whichever method you use, the main thing is to be consistent an don't swap and change methods as you will just confuse the pup.


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## Moobli (24 November 2017)

Lévrier;13677009 said:
			
		


			Sorry I would NEVER recommend Caesar Milan - he is a complete idiot who has been proven to be such!!!  Use common sense instead, please...
		
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Agreed!!!!


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## Equi (24 November 2017)

Lévrier;13677009 said:
			
		


			Sorry I would NEVER recommend Caesar Milan - he is a complete idiot who has been proven to be such!!!  Use common sense instead, please...
		
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Yet you just posted to slap it on the arse...hmmm


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## PapaverFollis (24 November 2017)

Also worth remembering that bitey pups are often tired and overstimulated pups... naptime or chewtime then naptime in a crate or quiet room is a good idea if they've gone particularly persistent with the biting.


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## {97702} (24 November 2017)

SusieT said:



			Don't smack them - it's just the resource of those who don't know how to positively reinforce. Don't let her get any fun out of biting you. Biting means you get up and leave the room or area - you had to show her it doesn't reward her to bite . If its biting because she's bored play with her, give her a toy etc. replace your hand with a chew. At 5 months you'd nearly hope she'd be out of it so I'd consider a good positive trainer/help to show you the way.
Smacking gains nothing.
		
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Yeah because we managed years and years before the modern fashion of 'positive reinforcement' resulted in a lot of undisciplined ignorant puppies....and kids.....   In the right hands it can be very effective, in the hands of the effective it can be a load of rubbish

My evidence to support this?  A lifetime of seeing people train their puppies/rescues very badly....


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## {97702} (24 November 2017)

equi said:



			Yet you just posted to slap it on the arse...hmmm
		
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Yes because a tap on the backside is very VERY different to anything I have seen CM recommend

If you cannot see that, sorry tis not my failing.... hmmm....


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## Pearlsasinger (24 November 2017)

JillA said:



			Puppies learn bite inhibition from their litter mates - each time they bite too hard and hurt, the other puppy squeals, and the biter knows he has hurt and needs to be a little softer. 
When the puppy bites you, if you squeal, apart from feeling like an idiot, you have continued to enable him to learn that he has just bitten too hard. Do it every time he bites hard enough to hurt and he will learn to inhibit his bite to a level that no longer causes any harm.
It works. I learned it from Dr Ian Dunbar, one of the "old school" behaviourists and have used it successfully several times
		
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Or, when the litter mate squeals the biter thinks he has just become top dog.  If you want to teach your pup not to bite, do what his mum would do which is definitely not squeal!  If mum doesn't want to be bitten, she makes it *very* clear that she isn't playing.

The  best way to stop your pup biting you is to not give him the opportunity in the first place.


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## CorvusCorax (24 November 2017)

In my experience yelping with a GSD just makes you prey. 

I'd give a correction for biting you and a redirection onto a toy or ball. This will stand you in better stead if you ever want to train the dog for any sports or activities. And a GSD's head won't fall off if you correct it, I promise.


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## JillA (25 November 2017)

Pearlsasinger said:



			Or, when the litter mate squeals the biter thinks he has just become top dog.  If you want to teach your pup not to bite, do what his mum would do which is definitely not squeal!  If mum doesn't want to be bitten, she makes it *very* clear that she isn't playing.
		
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Not true - puppies play bite each other, not their dam, they already know not to do that, because they accept her as "top dog", which is why you can PREVENT it (as opposed to interrupt it) by taking control of their eating and movement. Only a couple of weeks ago I was interacting with a puppy in a garden centre, and when she tested her teeth on me, the squeak stopped her mid bite, two or three times. She had never met me before so status didn't come into it.


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## angrybird1 (25 November 2017)

ILuvCowparsely said:



			I used to use my fingers and tap their nose and say NO!! in a firm voice. Move your hand then ignore him till he calms down.   Have a look at Caesar Milan for nay tips
		
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Please don't take advice from that man!


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## Clodagh (25 November 2017)

I have tiome for Cesar Milan, in that somethings he says are good. TBH Monty Roberts sometimes comes out with some sense, too. (Different training types of different species I know but call trainers can have some positives generally.
Anyway, before this goes off on another pro/anti CM I cannot see how positive training is going to stop a dog biting you? I am with Levrier here, although I wouldn't smack from day 1, if they bite I say no and stop all interaction. If it persists they would get a smack.


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## Pearlsasinger (25 November 2017)

JillA said:



			Not true - puppies play bite each other, not their dam, they already know not to do that, because they accept her as "top dog", which is why you can PREVENT it (as opposed to interrupt it) by taking control of their eating and movement. Only a couple of weeks ago I was interacting with a puppy in a garden centre, and when she tested her teeth on me, the squeak stopped her mid bite, two or three times. She had never met me before so status didn't come into it.
		
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I am afraid that it *is* true.  Squeaking at a pup that doesn't know you, just shows that it stopped playing to listen to the noise, which happened to interrupt the  biting.  Far better ime to not allow them to bite you in the first place.  Dogs need to learn that humans are NOT dogs and that the rules for playing with people are different from those for playing with other dogs.  We don't allow foals to play with humans like they do with other foals, because they so big from day 1 that it is dangerous, so why on earth would you allow a pup to treat you like another pup?  I find that people do a lot of silly things with pups because they are small and adorable, that they would not want an adult daog, of any size, never mind a big one to do.
If they can learn very quickly not to bite mum, they can learn very quickly not to bite people.  And I have started a lot of pups which have grown up to be polite, playful, happy big dogs, over the last 50+ yrs.
If squeaking works for you, fine, but I really don't think that it is wise to advocate it to a novice owner.

ETA, my dogs think of me as 'top dog' because that way, they do as they are told, it's called 'training'.


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## MotherOfChickens (25 November 2017)

not GSDs but personally have never had the loud 'ouch' and then ceasing all contact not work with a dog-even older dogs who's bite inhibition might be less than I am comfortable with (ie my last rescue who was a staffy cross and 5yo and Fitz who I got at 7 months). with a young pup I would do the loud 'ouch' and then redirect. if that isnt sufficient you up the anti to leaving the room.

 the only time I've seen it not work is when the handlers are inconsistent and/or encourage games where boundaries are muddled (thinking of a friend's dogs here).not saying I would never or have never smacked but have not found it necessary for a pup and bite inhibition-generally established by 3-4 months in breeds I've had.

I have no time for either CM or MR


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## Pearlsasinger (25 November 2017)

I can't remember ever having to smack, or even tap a pup for biting.  A firm, well-timed 'No!' has always been enough to stop Labs, GSDs and Rotties.  That and not putting your hands in biting position, as MoC says, don't muddle the boundaries.


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## TGM (25 November 2017)

I've followed the Ian Dunbar approach (recommended by several posters above) to bite inhibition for both my pups and found it really successful and it is worth reading his explanation of why you should reduce the force of the play biting first, before extinquishing it completely.  I also agree with one of the posters above who said that sometimes pups do this when they are over-tired - ours would sometimes be almost be in a frenzy and when she was like that we find the best approach was just to pop her in her crate, when she would promptly fall asleep!


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## MissTyc (25 November 2017)

TGM said:



			I've followed the Ian Dunbar approach (recommended by several posters above) to bite inhibition for both my pups and found it really successful and it is worth reading his explanation of why you should reduce the force of the play biting first, before extinquishing it completely.  I also agree with one of the posters above who said that sometimes pups do this when they are over-tired - ours would sometimes be almost be in a frenzy and when she was like that we find the best approach was just to pop her in her crate, when she would promptly fall asleep!
		
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^ This; we did Ian Dunbar religiously, and stayed consistent even when everything seemed to be totally failing with the terrierist. I think my Google search from when he was 5 months is basically a history of "is my puppy biting normal" (answer: yes) ; "at what age should my puppy stop biting" (answer: it depends on the dog) ; "help my puppy is hurting me with his biting" (answer: stop worrying; he WILL get there); "how many adult dogs actually bite their owners" (answer: not many at all so really, stop worrying now) and other stuff like that ... We never raised our voices, never told him off in the real sense, but stuck to Dr Dunbar's strategy (because it made behavioural sense to me - I am a behavioural psychologist so I had to have faith in the system!) ... and suddenly overnight, the biting ceased entirely. I couldn't quite believe it (the Google searches then looking something like "do dogs sometimes stop biting but then start again?" and things like that  ) .... Now when he's starting to zoom, he rushes off to the toy box and interesting in that mode he always selected a hard toy that he can sink his teeth into. If he so much as looks mouthy (sometimes he gets a devil glint in his eye!), then we consistently walk off and don't interact for a while .. He's 9 months and FINGERS CROSSED we haven't had any problem since.


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## Moobli (25 November 2017)

Clodagh said:



			I have tiome for Cesar Milan, in that somethings he says are good. TBH Monty Roberts sometimes comes out with some sense, too. (Different training types of different species I know but call trainers can have some positives generally.
Anyway, before this goes off on another pro/anti CM I cannot see how positive training is going to stop a dog biting you? I am with Levrier here, although I wouldn't smack from day 1, if they bite I say no and stop all interaction. If it persists they would get a smack.
		
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I was a bit unfair to CM before.  I am kind of neutral about him these days.  Like most dog trainers, he has some methods and ideas I would agree with and others I disregard completely.  It is all about making the right choice for the dog in front of you because, as well know, one size doesn't fit all.


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## ILuvCowparsely (25 November 2017)

Lévrier;13677009 said:
			
		


			Sorry I would NEVER recommend Caesar Milan - he is a complete idiot who has been proven to be such!!!  Use common sense instead, please...
		
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Your opinion only and your entitled to it.   


Well maybe OP might want to use him - and many others do it's their choice isn't it, not  really your place to tell OP not to use them without  a valid reason.  Where is this so called proof???  He would not be making a career out of it if what he says has not helped some dogs in the past.

 You could say don't  use Richard Maxwell I would not recommend him personally.  I would never say to someone I don't know base on my experience or views not to use him, buyers be where and all that.  Many dogs benefit from his training and I am sure they only televise these cases, and there maybe many many cases not screened where he may have failed or something wrong with the dog and he could not help it. 
  No reasons  to slate the guy.


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## Doggo01 (25 November 2017)

Thanks everyone for your replys, they have been really helpful and have put my mind at rest. We have been telling her of but After reading these replies, I think I should be more firm. I will also have a look at some of the methods suggested and see if anything suits us


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## CorvusCorax (25 November 2017)

WorkingGSD said:



			I was a bit unfair to CM before.  I am kind of neutral about him these days.  Like most dog trainers, he has some methods and ideas I would agree with and others I disregard completely.  It is all about making the right choice for the dog in front of you because, as well know, one size doesn't fit all.
		
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Baaaaaaaaa!

Also if the OP ever wants to do any sort of sports training I would never advocate complete shut down of behaviours. The acts of gripping, pulling and ragging, winning 
and the teaching of the letting go and them reactivating the object as a reward (even just a ball on a rope) are a major basis in a lot of training development which particularly suits GSDs.
I see a lot of people who come to try and further their dogs training or who want to get involved in sports and the dog is confused and conflicted when presented with a prey object because all that sort of behaviour has been extinguished.

Depending on the breeding of the dog it could be genetically inclined to want to hold something in its mouth. Chewing is also a stress reliever. Better to channel that IMO and teach it when, where and what is appropriate and create a distinction.


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## TGM (25 November 2017)

ILuvCowparsely said:



			Well maybe OP might want to use him - and many others do it's their choice isn't it, not  really your place to tell OP not to use them without  a valid reason.  Where is this so called proof???  He would not be making a career out of it if what he says has not helped some dogs in the past.
		
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There is quite a balanced article on the pros and cons of Caesar Milan's methods on the link below, makes interesting reading IMO:

https://www.livescience.com/5846-critics-challenge-dog-whisperer-methods.html


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## {97702} (25 November 2017)

ILuvCowparsely said:



			Your opinion only and your entitled to it.   


Well maybe OP might want to use him - and many others do it's their choice isn't it, not  really your place to tell OP not to use them without  a valid reason.  Where is this so called proof???  He would not be making a career out of it if what he says has not helped some dogs in the past.

 You could say don't  use Richard Maxwell I would not recommend him personally.  I would never say to someone I don't know base on my experience or views not to use him, buyers be where and all that.  Many dogs benefit from his training and I am sure they only televise these cases, and there maybe many many cases not screened where he may have failed or something wrong with the dog and he could not help it. 
  No reasons  to slate the guy.
		
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Any particular reason you only chose to respond to my post and not the 3 others that agreed with me?


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## Alec Swan (25 November 2017)

I don't believe that Milan ever advocates his training methods as a from-the-start way-to train a dog.  It has to be remembered that within a very short period of time (a single episode of a show),  he has to break in to and control an established behaviour pattern in dogs which are often exceedingly dangerous.  Sometimes he gets it wrong &#8212; I remembered when he was nailed by that labrador and he immediately put his hand up and said that the fault was his.  I wonder how many of those who decry the man would succeed using their own methods.  Who's that clown of a Uni lecturer who's never trained a dog but advises those who are gullible that his experience as a canine psychologist is the only way? 

Cesar Milan with his charm and his ever so shiny teeth is a television show presenter,  except that he's more than that.  His 'reading' and understanding of difficult dogs is remarkable &#8212;&#8212; at least,  I think it is! 

Alec.


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## Alec Swan (25 November 2017)

ILuvCowparsely said:



			&#8230;&#8230;..

 You could say don't  use Richard Maxwell I would not recommend him personally.  &#8230;&#8230;.. .
		
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I've had RM travel here twice and to deal with seemingly impossible colts.  The effects were quite remarkable and with 2 x 30 minute sessions in a day,  both the youngsters were transformed,  still colts obviously,  but manageable and safe.  The strange thing,  to me anyway,  was that at no point during the mini crash-courses did he utter one word to the horses.  I have a great deal of time for RM &#8230;. and just as I have for Cesar Milan! 

Alec.


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## TGM (25 November 2017)

Alec Swan said:



			I don't believe that Milan ever advocates his training methods as a from-the-start way-to train a dog.  It has to be remembered that within a very short period of time (a single episode of a show),  he has to break in to and control an established behaviour pattern in dogs which are often exceedingly dangerous.
		
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That may be true, but in this thread we are talking about a puppy showing typical puppy play-biting behaviour - and what the OP is looking for is exactly what you call "from-the-start-way-to-train a dog".  So this is not an established behaviour pattern in an exceedingly dangerous dog.


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## CorvusCorax (25 November 2017)

Come back Doggo01, come baaaaaack!


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## ILuvCowparsely (25 November 2017)

Lévrier;13677336 said:
			
		


			Any particular reason you only chose to respond to my post and not the 3 others that agreed with me?
		
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Could it be................ Because you quoted me!!!


 Thanx for your pm Alex


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## Alec Swan (25 November 2017)

TGM said:



			That may be true, but in this thread we are talking about a puppy showing typical puppy play-biting behaviour - and what the OP is looking for is exactly what you call "from-the-start-way-to-train a dog".  So this is not an established behaviour pattern in an exceedingly dangerous dog.
		
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You raise a good point;  and all that we need to do is watch what an adult dog would do in this situation.  Without any unacceptable pain,  the puppy would be on the end of a slap and it would learn both manners and respect in a couple of seconds.

Should the early lessons not be learned as they probably haven't in most of the cases that Milan deals with,  then we're left wondering what to do!

Alec.

As a ps,  I was responding to the comments which referred to Milan and I'm quite certain that he wouldn't advocate anything more than teaching the little blighter some manners . sharpish!


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## Pearlsasinger (25 November 2017)

Alec Swan said:



			You raise a good point;  and all that we need to do is watch what an adult dog would do in this situation.  Without any unacceptable pain,  the puppy would be on the end of a slap and it would learn both manners and respect in a couple of seconds.

Alec.
		
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This is why don't understand why some people seem to have problems stopping their pups biting - This isn't the first thread about the subject on here.  Pups generally learn not to bite mum, even while feeding from her, it's not a difficult lesson for them to learn and it is very rare for a bitch to cause harm to a pup while teaching it manners.  
Why do some people find it so difficult?  How do they play with their pups that encourages them to bite?
As well as the big dogs mentioned in my previous post (Labs, GSD, Rotts), we have had JRTs which soon learned not to bite.  Admittedly almost all of our pups for the last 50 yrs have come in pairs and come to live with established adults within the home.


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## Moobli (25 November 2017)

CorvusCorax said:



			Baaaaaaaaa!

Also if the OP ever wants to do any sort of sports training I would never advocate complete shut down of behaviours. The acts of gripping, pulling and ragging, winning 
and the teaching of the letting go and them reactivating the object as a reward (even just a ball on a rope) are a major basis in a lot of training development which particularly suits GSDs.
I see a lot of people who come to try and further their dogs training or who want to get involved in sports and the dog is confused and conflicted when presented with a prey object because all that sort of behaviour has been extinguished.

Depending on the breeding of the dog it could be genetically inclined to want to hold something in its mouth. Chewing is also a stress reliever. Better to channel that IMO and teach it when, where and what is appropriate and create a distinction.
		
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Absolutely!  I have posted earlier about how I deal with a biting puppy.  The bits of CM I agree with are that most dogs don't get enough exercise and stimulation, the need to remain calm and patient when training dogs, and boundaries need to be established that the dog understands.  The hiss, the kicks, the flooding - no, I don't agree with any of that.


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## {97702} (25 November 2017)

ILuvCowparsely said:



			Could it be................ Because you quoted me!!!


 Thanx for your pm Alex

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Could that be...... Because you were the only one suggesting that the OP used his methods!!!!


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## ILuvCowparsely (25 November 2017)

Lévrier;13677398 said:
			
		


			Could that be...... Because you were the only one suggesting that the OP used his methods!!!!
		
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NO  read my post I  suggested her look at  Caesar Milan    



ILuvCowparsely said:



			Have a look at Caesar Milan for nay tips
		
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  as in his videos  I did NOT say USE his precise method.  I said she could get some T I P S

 I really must learn to  explain ever so simply what I mean for those not putting 2 and 2 together.


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## Fellewell (25 November 2017)

Doggo01 said:



			I have a GSD puppy who is just over 5 months old. She very lively (as is any other puppy who is her age). She is still nipping and biting quite badly at the moment and as you can imagine, really hurting us due to her size. Its been a long time since Ive had a GSD as a pup and so I am looking for some advice on whether it is normal to bite at this age and how can I work to get her out of it. 
I understand its all part of having a puppy but she is leaving quite bad marks when she bites and I really want to set her up with the right start. Thanks in advance.
		
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I'm not against physical chastisement but at this stage I really don't think you should use it. You've had a GSD before, what's so different about this one? what's changed in your household? Hopefully you bought this pup from a breeder who asked you to stay in touch. Don't delay, hightail it back to them and get some advice there.


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## CorvusCorax (25 November 2017)

Some pups are bitier than others. It's not unusual for experienced dog owners to have a complete culture shock with a new pup.


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## Fellewell (26 November 2017)

CorvusCorax said:



			Some pups are bitier than others. It's not unusual for experienced dog owners to have a complete culture shock with a new pup.
		
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I think with your background, you're coming at this from an ausgepragt angle ;-) This dog is in a pet home and what we need to establish is whether this little typewriter is gearing up for something. My hope is that she's just extremely bored. Either way, the breeder should know.


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## CorvusCorax (26 November 2017)

Pronounced strength, courage and fighting spirit lol?


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## Clodagh (26 November 2017)

CorvusCorax said:



			It's not unusual for experienced dog owners to have a complete culture shock with a new pup.
		
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Every time, we alwyas say never again.


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## Pearlsasinger (26 November 2017)

Clodagh said:



			Every time, we alwyas say never again.
		
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Our current pair of Rotters (litter sisters) are the first pups where we have had a short break after the last dog, in 50 yrs.  We got them home and soon realised "They don't speak English".  That was something of a culture shock, as always before the older dogs have trained the pups. Fortunately they are clever girls and soon picked it up.  Now we wish sometimes that they weren't so clever - or so good at English.


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## Fellewell (28 November 2017)

CorvusCorax said:



			Pronounced strength, courage and fighting spirit lol?
		
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It's in the way that you use it 

Thing is, I've had this breed for over 50 yrs, all flavours, some with 5 generation pedigrees and some with nothing at all and I can honestly say none of them have ever thrown up any surprises. We had a reject from a security firm who was one of the best dogs ever. My first dog was from a Marchael lines and very sharp so maybe I just expect it. I do favour the WGSL which is not popular on these boards but I've had others.


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## jsprince (28 November 2017)

I have a new Gsd pup from wgsl, he is now 15 weeks and a bundle of puppy love and teeth, I think it is just a matter of redirection until they get the idea and they stop teething.  I have been lucky and mine has shark teeth but I wear jumpers a lot, my poor Dad who is older has not quite got the hang of not waving his fingers and hands in front of Teddy's mouth like toys,  it's also an unfortunate thing that as you get older your skin looses its elacsticity so what once was an ouch turns into red pinpricks. 

The one I feel sorry for is my older boy who is the target for most of the bitey behaviour.


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## Alec Swan (28 November 2017)

Pearlsasinger said:



			This is why don't understand why some people seem to have problems stopping their pups biting - This isn't the first thread about the subject on here. &#8230;. .
		
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Perhaps Admin will award it with a sticky status! 

I don't play with pups,  any pups and there's a reason for that,  when I'm tired of the game,  or hurt and bleeding then I'm going to scold the pup by way of bringing the game to an end or in some way preventing the continuance.  What would the pup have learned?  Dogs don't learn what's acceptable by failing to understand that what they do today may be fine,  but not tomorrow.  Dogs,  and the learning process starts as they leave their mother and join in the human world,  learn by an association of ideas,  they don't speak or understand English and neither do they understand our intentions when we send them mixed messages.

The greatest obstacle that most of us have to overcome is the avoidance of inconsistency and to a degree,  we all fall in to that trap.  No pup will respect or understand its owner if we introduce confusion.

Alec.


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## SpringArising (30 November 2017)

I don't have a problem with giving a smack, a sharp jerk on the collar or using physical chastisement. I deal with dogs exactly as I do horses - calm, patient and understanding, unless they do something rude or dangerous, in which case they'll get a short sharp shock. I'd rather give one smack that hurts them and never have to do it again than try to 'redirect' with a toy thirty times (which IMO, teaches absolutely nothing and is just a distraction).

I think often that those who are totally adverse to the use physical reinforcement have probably never had to deal with a 20KG Bull Terrier or the like...


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## TGM (30 November 2017)

SpringArising said:



			I think often that those who are totally adverse to the use physical reinforcement have probably never had to deal with a 20KG Bull Terrier or the like...
		
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And I think this comment actually highlights the crux of the problem - there are such a wide range of breeds and types of dogs and they vary hugely in terms of traits and level of sensitivity.  I'm not totally opposed to physical reinforcement, but it would never be my first 'go to' option.  But then I currently have sighthounds and they are generally very sensitive and in my experience rarely need such an approach.  On the other hand, I've met some thuggish types of dog which probably do need a firmer hand!


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## Apercrumbie (30 November 2017)

SpringArising said:



			I don't have a problem with giving a smack, a sharp jerk on the collar or using physical chastisement. I deal with dogs exactly as I do horses - calm, patient and understanding, unless they do something rude or dangerous, in which case they'll get a short sharp shock. I'd rather give one smack that hurts them and never have to do it again than try to 'redirect' with a toy thirty times (which IMO, teaches absolutely nothing and is just a distraction).

I think often that those who are totally adverse to the use physical reinforcement have probably never had to deal with a 20KG Bull Terrier or the like...
		
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I agree - redirection is a useful tool but will only work when the thing they're being redirected to is more interesting than what you are redirecting from! Dogs also need to understand what no means.


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## MotherOfChickens (30 November 2017)

TGM said:



			And I think this comment actually highlights the crux of the problem - there are such a wide range of breeds and types of dogs and they vary hugely in terms of traits and level of sensitivity.  I'm not totally opposed to physical reinforcement, but it would never be my first 'go to' option.  But then I currently have sighthounds and they are generally very sensitive and in my experience rarely need such an approach.  On the other hand, I've met some thuggish types of dog which probably do need a firmer hand!
		
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yes,, this-I wonder if those who like physical reinforcement have never had to deal with a sensitive breed.


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## CorvusCorax (30 November 2017)

In fairness several people who have experience with the breed in question have commented.


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## SpringArising (30 November 2017)

MotherOfChickens said:



			yes,, this-I wonder if those who like physical reinforcement have never had to deal with a sensitive breed.
		
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It's about just using common sense really isn't it? It should go without saying that someone (e.g. like me) who would use physical reinforcement or punishment or whatever you want to call it wouldn't use it on a nervous dog or on a behaviour that was a fear response.


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## TGM (30 November 2017)

CorvusCorax said:



			In fairness several people who have experience with the breed in question have commented.
		
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I think this thread has derailed rather from the OP's question and become more of a general discussion!


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## splashgirl45 (30 November 2017)

MotherOfChickens said:



			yes,, this-I wonder if those who like physical reinforcement have never had to deal with a sensitive breed.
		
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i currently have a very feisty small terrier mix who was very bitey and i tried all other methods first but had to resort to scruffing him and shaking (not roughly) .  he is still a bit bitey when he gets exited but now listens to me....i have had mainly sighthounds all of my life and my other current dog is a collie cross and i have NEVER had to be tough with any of them, so i found it quite difficult to change my way of training.  i also have had 2 terriers and they were easy to train so i wasnt expecting such a little monster this time...i still love him though..


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## MotherOfChickens (30 November 2017)

SpringArising said:



			It's about just using common sense really isn't it? It should go without saying that someone (e.g. like me) who would use physical reinforcement or punishment or whatever you want to call it wouldn't use it on a nervous dog or on a behaviour that was a fear response.
		
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is it? I am not talking fearful/nervous dogs-I am talking about 15 week old puppies that might be a of more sensitive breed. it might be about common sense but this thread has those in favour of physical reinforcement continually saying that positive reinforcement doesnt work for bite inhibition generally. I'm saying it can-its worked for every single one of my dogs including older rescue dogs who's bite inhibition wasnt what I wanted it to be, and she was a staffy cross at 22kg if we have to qualify every comment. In the interest of balance and for people wanting information on teaching bite inhibition-one size does not fit all.


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## Alec Swan (30 November 2017)

SpringArising said:



			It's about just using common sense really isn't it? &#8230;&#8230;.. .
		
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Indeed it is! The other point is that it would be unlikely for a shy or retiring or sensitive dog to 'mouth' their owner.  'Mouthing' (play-biting if we like) is generally an expression of frustration,  total lack of respect,  or possibly even teething.  Puppies will also use it as a method of testing the boundaries of what's acceptable and what isn't.  I would strongly suspect that 'most' pups which have a modest lesson of discipline installed,  probably wouldn't do it,  I'd suspect that adolescent biting is more often witnessed from dogs which haven't had the boundaries explained to them.

Getting the balance of,  on the one hand a cowed and brow-beaten pup and on the other hand having an ignorant little toad,  always seems to me to be a fairly simple process.  I'm also convinced that many,  in a desire to 'bond' with their puppy (though in reality,  they become subservient) allow liberties and then,  for what ever reasons,  seem unable to tighten the screw of discipline.  Better to start as we mean to go on,  I think.

Alec.


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## SpringArising (30 November 2017)

MotherOfChickens said:



			is it? I am not talking fearful/nervous dogs-I am talking about 15 week old puppies that might be a of more sensitive breed. it might be about common sense but this thread has those in favour of physical reinforcement continually saying that positive reinforcement doesnt work for bite inhibition generally.
		
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That also falls under using your common sense on when it is and isn't appropriate to discipline, and how, and how much. 

I'm not saying that positive reinforcement doesn't work - I use it all the time. But I don't think that's what it is when you have a dog biting you and you hand them a toy or a treat ball instead to 'redirect'. 

The dog hasn't learnt that biting is bad, instead all that's happened is the focus has been put elsewhere. 

At no point there has the dog learnt that there will be an uncomfortable repercussion to a bad behaviour, and there are plenty of dogs who need to have bad behaviours nipped in the bud ASAP.


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## CorvusCorax (30 November 2017)

GSDs at this age will be wanting to chew, bite and hold things. 
Once they get a correction and a firm message that teeth do not touch hands (or furniture lol), to not ever offer an alternative is unfair in my view.

And yes I do work with dogs of usually 30-40kg. 
As I said earlier the average GSD will not wither and die with a correction, but if all you ever do is tell it off, it just won't like you very much.

In my view not all biting Is bad. It just has to be directed to the right place.
Good luck developing the ball drive or training the retrieval of an object, with a dog that has been told sternly as a pup that it must never bite, grip or hold anything. All of these exercises are just prey and play drive, modified.


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## Leo Walker (30 November 2017)

Clodagh said:



			I have tiome for Cesar Milan, in that somethings he says are good. TBH Monty Roberts sometimes comes out with some sense, too.
		
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Watch his videos with the sound off. He talks a very good talk but what he says is not what he does.



ILuvCowparsely said:



			Many dogs benefit from his training and I am sure they only televise these cases, and there maybe many many cases not screened where he may have failed or something wrong with the dog and he could not help it. 
  No reasons  to slate the guy.
		
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There are many, many reasons to slate the guy. Mainly the fact that he believes in and pushes a theory that has long since been debunked, and therefore bases all his training on flooding and dominance.


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## Alec Swan (30 November 2017)

Leo Walker said:



			&#8230;&#8230;.. There are many, many reasons to slate the guy. Mainly the fact that he believes in and pushes a theory that has long since been debunked, and therefore bases all his training on flooding and dominance.
		
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Three questions for you;

1:  Have you ever seen Milan use his time served methods on a mouthing puppy,  or any puppy?

2: Have you ever had to 'force' your way in to and create an immediate relationship with a dog that's so disturbed that it's dangerous?

3: Do you have any relevant and evidenced experience of dangerous dogs which you could put up for all to see?

Alec.


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## {97702} (30 November 2017)

MotherOfChickens said:



			yes,, this-I wonder if those who like physical reinforcement have never had to deal with a sensitive breed.
		
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Considering I've had sighthounds for the past 30 years I think that would be a yes?   Some of my sighthounds have been sensitive and I wouldn't dream of smacking them, raising my voice slightly was enough.  Some of them less so, and a smack on the backside was needed (as with current manic lurcher puppy )  

I suppose this is the disadvantage of a forum - when I respond with what I would do, I assume that everyone has had the exposure and experience I have had.  I am not an expert by any means, I've just had dogs for a lot of years, but judging by the way my comments are often misinterpreted or challenged I guess I need to provide more explanation/context?  (NOT aimed at you MoC, this is a general observation)

I suggested a smack on the backside in this context because I feel that generally in my limited experience GSDs are not a shy and retiring breed who need delicate handling.  I wouldn't have advocated the same approach for a CKCS for example.  As SpringArising says, to me it is a matter of common sense


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## {97702} (30 November 2017)

Alec Swan said:



			Three questions for you;

1:  Have you ever seen Milan use his time served methods on a mouthing puppy,  or any puppy?

2: Have you ever had to 'force' your way in to and create an immediate relationship with a dog that's so disturbed that it's dangerous?

3: Do you have any relevant and evidenced experience of dangerous dogs which you could put up for all to see?

Alec.
		
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No to all of those - however I have seen a cracking video where CM TOTALLY handled a dog in the wrong way (I think it was a food aggressive one? ) - at that moment I lost all respect and time for the man, he is an idiot


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## Alec Swan (30 November 2017)

Lévrier;13680124 said:
			
		


			No to all of those - however I have seen a cracking video where CM TOTALLY handled a dog in the wrong way (I think it was a food aggressive one? ) - at that moment I lost all respect and time for the man, he is an idiot
		
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I saw it too,  it was a Yellow Lab (or similar),  he was going to get nailed,  that was obvious,  he pushed the dog too far,  but surprisingly he missed the warning signs &#8230;. we get too cocky and dogs can bring us down to earth with such a bump!   &#8230;. BUT,  he immediately accepted that the fault laid with him and it did.

Lev,  Milan's reputation and for so many,  hangs on one major ****-up.  Being in front of a camera didn't help and perhaps because of the time constraints,  he chanced his arm,  and he got it bitten!!  He was wrong,  most dog owners get it wrong sometimes,  they just don't do it on camera.  

Alec.


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## Leo Walker (30 November 2017)

Its not one major cock up. Its repeated cock ups based on flawed methodology. He narrowly escaped being prosecuted for cruelty last year. 

I've just watched the video with the lab again to make sure I wasnt mistaken. The dogs body language is very clear. CM gets bitten then says "I didnt see that coming" He then carries on using the same methods and gets bitten again. Hes an idiot.


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## {97702} (30 November 2017)

I respect your opinion Alec - blimey I never thought I'd say that lol     - and I understand exactly where you are coming from

However I have to say I agree with LW far more.

I know everyone will have differing views, that is what makes us human and leads to - hopefully healthy and constructive - debate?


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## CorvusCorax (30 November 2017)

He's a dog trainer, not a piano player.


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## {97702} (30 November 2017)

CorvusCorax said:



			He's a dog trainer, not a piano player.
		
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Que???!!!


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## CorvusCorax (30 November 2017)

Milan. He gets bit. It's an occupational hazard.
He's not using his fingers to tinkle the ivories, he's putting them near the sharp end of an animal with 42 teeth.
He's been bitten a fair few times on camera.

Victoria Stilwell was hospitalised in the USA when she sat next to an operational K9, the handler had strongly advised her not to approach. **** happens.


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## {97702} (30 November 2017)

Ah I see!  Yep **** happens - I agree - IMO it doesnt make his methodologies right


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## Moobli (30 November 2017)

CorvusCorax said:



			In my view not all biting Is bad. It just has to be directed to the right place.
Good luck developing the ball drive or training the retrieval of an object, with a dog that has been told sternly as a pup that it must never bite, grip or hold anything. All of these exercises are just prey and play drive, modified.
		
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Yep - this ^^^^

I have owned the breed for over 25 years and have worked with a variety of types and temperaments.  They have all responded well to the loud 'ouch' followed by redirect on to a toy ... which the dog soon works out is much more satisfying to bite and chew as it results in an exciting game of tug (which can then be used for all kinds of reward and training).  Perhaps smacking or shaking also works, but I believe it can result in suppressing the prey drive which is a useful training aid, and can damage the bond between owner and dog.


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