# Surely this isn't right..... :(



## Illusion100 (15 August 2015)

https://www.facebook.com/m.horse.addicted/videos/450895365083942/

What...Why...????


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## EquiEquestrian556 (15 August 2015)

TBH, for a moment I thought it was fake. Poor horse. OK, it is probably a Paso Fino or similar breed, but that's in no way natural. Why would anyone _*want/ need*_ a horse to walk like that?!


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## Pinkvboots (15 August 2015)

Horrible poor horse.


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## Goldenstar (15 August 2015)

Poor little horse


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## kinnygirl1 (15 August 2015)

I can't make any sense of what I'm seeing there tbh! Why on earth would anyone train the horse to do that?


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## cobgoblin (15 August 2015)

Lol - won't get anywhere very fast at that pace!
Sounds like castanets.


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## SadKen (15 August 2015)

Looked pretty disturbing to me. I can't think that this gait would have any use in nature at all, and in fact would be adverse for the horse. Ergo, why bother?


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## Cinnamontoast (15 August 2015)

Horse does it naturally according to the poster?! Looks horrific


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## Princess16 (15 August 2015)

Sick!


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## cobgoblin (15 August 2015)

Had a little  search and this is one of the three naturally occurring unique gaits of the paso fino. It's called classic fino.


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## Meowy Catkin (15 August 2015)

Lots of hysteria and ignorance. Look at the video on here which explains it very well.

http://www.pfha.org/the-breed/gaits

ETA - 




			The gait of the Paso Fino horse is totally natural and normally exhibited from birth. It is an evenly-spaced four-beat lateral gait with each foot contacting the ground independently in a regular sequence at precise intervals creating a rapid, unbroken rhythm.
		
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## Goldenstar (15 August 2015)

cobgoblin said:



			Had a little  search and this is one of the three naturally occurring unique gaits of the paso fino. It's called classic fino.
		
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A classic fino ID what I drink on a lazy Sunday morning .


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## Illusion100 (15 August 2015)

Faracat said:



			Lots of hysteria and ignorance. Look at the video on here which explains it very well.

http://www.pfha.org/the-breed/gaits

ETA -
		
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Looks as natural as the Big Lick...


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## rara007 (15 August 2015)

Have you guys not seen the video of the foals doing this?


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## Orangehorse (15 August 2015)

Quote from "The Conquerors" by Deb Bennett

"having incororated the beauties and physical benefits of fluidly shortening and lengthening stride, the modern Paso Fino breeder desires still more: to create a horse that can execute fino steps as rapidly as possible.  The ultimate "fino horse" is one that is capable of extreme collection, flowing and supple movement and whose rapid footed gait beats a Flamenco tattoo upon the .... road.  The well bred and trained Purerto Rican horse ...... can produce upwards of 150 strides (600 steps) per minute - that is more than 10 steps per second."

An extremely interesting book about the history of horses in the Americas, how they arrrived there and how different breeds evolved and why there are still the gaited breeds in the New World which have mostly died out in Europe.  The Paso Finos are the descendants of horses that were taken from Spain in the 16th century.


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## Meowy Catkin (15 August 2015)

A bit of a fuzzy video, but here's a foal doing it loose.

[video=youtube;EG0k_xVbU0c]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EG0k_xVbU0c[/video]

Comparing it to the terrible torture that is big lick is just ridiculous.


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## kinnygirl1 (15 August 2015)

Orangehorse said:



			Quote from "The Conquerors" by Deb Bennett

"having incororated the beauties and physical benefits of fluidly shortening and lengthening stride, the modern Paso Fino breeder desires still more: to create a horse that can execute fino steps as rapidly as possible.  The ultimate "fino horse" is one that is capable of extreme collection, flowing and supple movement and whose rapid footed gait beats a Flamenco tattoo upon the .... road.  The well bred and trained Purerto Rican horse ...... can produce upwards of 150 strides (600 steps) per minute - that is more than 10 steps per second."

An extremely interesting book about the history of horses in the Americas, how they arrrived there and how different breeds evolved and why there are still the gaited breeds in the New World which have mostly died out in Europe.  The Paso Finos are the descendants of horses that were taken from Spain in the 16th century.
		
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Wow, you really do learn something new everyday! I wonder what it feels like to ride.


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## cappucino (15 August 2015)

Faracat said:



			Lots of hysteria and ignorance. Look at the video on here which explains it very well.

http://www.pfha.org/the-breed/gaits

ETA -
		
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My current share is a Paso Fino and I can confirm that the gait is a totally natural pace for them.

This would be an example of extreme collection which would be no more difficult to train than a collected trot (though I doubt all Paso's could as collected and speedy as the one shown!) and is certainly no less natural than a piaffe or pirouette to these horses. I imagine it would usually only be used for short periods of time to demonstrate the gait, as at shows they go over a short section of a hard surface where the evenness of the steps can be heard and therefore judged.

When you have seen them gaiting across a field in a natural fashion you realise that it is just what they do..  

They make great endurance horses as they can keep the gait going for long periods of time and as someone else mentioned is is incredibly comfortable .. so no need for a rising trot!


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## Goldenstar (16 August 2015)

Faracat said:



			A bit of a fuzzy video, but here's a foal doing it loose.

[video=youtube;EG0k_xVbU0c]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EG0k_xVbU0c[/video]

Comparing it to the terrible torture that is big lick is just ridiculous.
		
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Yuk yuk why would want a horse to do that .


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## cobgoblin (16 August 2015)

I just love that foal!


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## Illusion100 (16 August 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			Yuk yuk why would want a horse to do that .
		
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My thoughts exactly.


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## mungasmum (16 August 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			Yuk yuk why would want a horse to do that .
		
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Why do many children want to walk tiptoe?


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## rara007 (16 August 2015)

Years of selective breeding no doubt- much like we've bred horses to gallop flat out over relatively short distances, or to jump random fences in their way, or to trot throwing their legs out forwards or knees up, or to carry a rider easier etc etc. We could all have przewalski horses but I prefer the modified beasts we've made personally


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## Meowy Catkin (16 August 2015)

If you don't like pacing, don't get a horse that's a pacer, if you don't like the Paso Fino's four beat gait, don't get a Paso. Simple. 

I'm sure that Enfys has gaited horses. I hope that she sees this thread and explains their virtues. I suspect that they are very comfortable to ride. 

Maybe Cappuccino could also tell us a bit more about their share horse?


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## Enfys (16 August 2015)

Faracat said " 

If you don't like pacing, don't get a horse that's a pacer, if you don't like the Paso Fino's four beat gait, don't get a Paso. Simple. " Wise words.

Enfys certainly has seen this, and is spitting feathers. 

I am very glad that someone put up the video of the foal.

 I am going to go get the feathers out of my mouth, and take deep breaths before I am able to answer politely.

Just one comment to the OP, rather than condemning a breed, breed trait or something that you obviously know nothing about try educating yourself about it first.  

I will return, right after I go out to feed my paso finos


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## Enfys (16 August 2015)

EquiEquestrian556 said:



			TBH, for a moment I thought it was fake. Poor horse. OK, it is probably a Paso Fino or similar breed, but that's in no way natural. Why would anyone _*want/ need*_ a horse to walk like that?!
		
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Poor horse, oh bull poop! 

I have two, one DOES gait like that, and she is the best ride I have had for years. She is also perfectly capable of normal paces.


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## Enfys (16 August 2015)

cobgoblin said:



			Lol - won't get anywhere very fast at that pace!
Sounds like castanets.
		
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Funny that. We had a team of 4 paso finos beat hunters over a 16km course (with jumps) a couple weekends ago.

The next day, two of them competed in a completely different sphere, and won, beating quarter horses, earning over $600 in two days.

and breathe ...


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## Enfys (16 August 2015)

kinnygirl1 said:



			Wow, you really do learn something new everyday! I wonder what it feels like to ride.
		
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Smooth. You don't move - once you learn jelly back  You just sit .


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## Enfys (16 August 2015)

Coincidentally there was the self same video and comments on an FB page today, this was an answer from a highly experienced, and respected, rider and trainer, she also happens to be my neighbour, I am extremely fortunate in that 

"This horse is not being mistreated. It is moving in its own natural gait with maximum collection. This is the Paso Fino equivalent of Piaffe in dressage. This horse would also be able to move out faster forward. This is a show gait. Only a rare handful of them can do it this fast though and this horse is worth hundreds of thousands and would be highly honoured in the breed."

We all like what we all like.


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## Ladyinred (16 August 2015)

I know it's 'natural' but the amount of concussion to the feet and legs must be many times that of a normal horse covering the same distance.

I find it ugly and unnatural.


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## Barnacle (16 August 2015)

It's worth keeping in mind that gaits other than the typical trot have always been present and "naturally-occurring" in horses. WE chose to favour the trotting horse partly due to fad and partly because trotting horses typically canter more easily, making them useful for hunting, jumping etc (in fact recent research shows a gene associated with pacing inhibits the canter - though pacing is not the same as an ambling gait such as the Paso's). In the past, gaited horses were valued highly because they are so smooth to ride - and the Paso's gait traces right back to the Spanish Jennets taken to the Americas. 

For anyone who doesn't know much about gaited horses, I think this is a nice set of articles: https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&r...06r1bftlTn9raWLRw&sig2=Y8TyF-3PsP3XuQX3u9Tf8Q They are aimed at Saddlebreds but mention several other breeds, including Paso Finos. When you see how far back such gaits go, you may see things differently.


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## Enfys (16 August 2015)

Ladyinred, there are certain types of horses I find ugly too, others I wouldn't give others field space to, so I respect your opinion, freedom of speech and all that. 

We must each speak as we find, and therefore probably ruffle some feathers, somewhere, so we must occasionally expect the Momma Bear to rear her head  

Personally, I have never met a nasty Paso, they have all been kind, gentle creatures with great respect and affection for people. 
Like Arabians (which I have owned for over 25 years, and still do) they are very sensitive, they will take a 6 year old novice on a trail ride, and an hour later be all fire and corto with an experienced jockey. 

They aren't for everyone, for which they would be thankful 
They do look different - there is no getting around it, when you are used to trotting horses, Pasos look like Duracell ponies , although, like Icies they are horses, not ponies regardless of actual height . 

They are also generally small from 13-15h, and, like tbs and Arabians they come in various shapes and sizes depending on bloodlines, temperament varies too, you get your lazy bods and then you get the high brios (on a temperament scale of 1 - 10. 1 being dead, 5 being average, 10 being a 'bit' goey  

I love my pasos, my hips and knees no longer ache since I started riding gaited horses, so for me, I get the whole package, pain free riding, and spunky little horses to gallop about on, I am having my second childhood, riding is fun again.

They jump too  This is one of my mares, not me on board


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## Enfys (16 August 2015)

Barnacle  absolutely has it.


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## hackneylass2 (16 August 2015)

Barnacle, what a fascinating article!  I think when gaited horses are mentioned the artificially exaggerated gaits of the 'big lick' horses and the cruel methods used to produce this spring to mind first, which is a shame. But having said that, I rode a Tennessee Walker once who had not been subject to any questionable practices, the gait was the one he was born with, and he was, in temperament, very like the typical Hackney ie sensitive, clever and enthusiastic!  Gorgeous ride and a sweet boy, I would have loved to smuggle him into my suitcase!  I'd love to try a Paso Fino! alas, I have never so much as seen one in the flesh.


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## minkymoo (16 August 2015)

Personally, gaited horses aren't my thing, but then Thoroughbreds and Appaloosa's aren't either! I do however appreciate them as a breed and think gaited horses are so interesting and I'd love to ride one, especially an Icelandic. 

I think people need to understand the difference between a natural gaited horse & one who has been forced to exaggerate its paces. 

It is ok to not really like a breed, it's the same as not liking the same type of man, we all want different qualities in our partners be they equine or human!


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## ycbm (16 August 2015)

Ladyinred said:



			I know it's 'natural' but the amount of concussion to the feet and legs must be many times that of a normal horse covering the same distance.

I find it ugly and unnatural.
		
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I doubt if this is true. Concussion is related to how high the horse lifts its feet off the floor before putting them down again, and in this pace there is minimal lift. I suspect that the increase in footbeats is more than compensated for by the reduction in concussion on each beat. And that's before even considering how much less effort on the rest of the body it is for the horse to cover the ground in this way.

It certainly isn't unnatural. You're entitled to find it ugly


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## Princess16 (16 August 2015)

Well you learn something new every day! That foal was incredible!


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## Gloi (16 August 2015)

Having Icies all I can say is that people who have never ridden gaited horses just don't know what they are missing.


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## Ladyinred (16 August 2015)

Enfys said:



			Ladyinred, there are certain types of horses I find ugly too, others I wouldn't give others field space to, so I respect your opinion, freedom of speech and all that. 

We must each speak as we find, and therefore probably ruffle some feathers, somewhere, so we must occasionally expect the Momma Bear to rear her head  

Personally, I have never met a nasty Paso, they have all been kind, gentle creatures with great respect and affection for people. 
Like Arabians (which I have owned for over 25 years, and still do) they are very sensitive, they will take a 6 year old novice on a trail ride, and an hour later be all fire and corto with an experienced jockey. 

They aren't for everyone, for which they would be thankful 
They do look different - there is no getting around it, when you are used to trotting horses, Pasos look like Duracell ponies , although, like Icies they are horses, not ponies regardless of actual height . 

They are also generally small from 13-15h, and, like tbs and Arabians they come in various shapes and sizes depending on bloodlines, temperament varies too, you get your lazy bods and then you get the high brios (on a temperament scale of 1 - 10. 1 being dead, 5 being average, 10 being a 'bit' goey  

I love my pasos, my hips and knees no longer ache since I started riding gaited horses, so for me, I get the whole package, pain free riding, and spunky little horses to gallop about on, I am having my second childhood, riding is fun again.

They jump too  This is one of my mares, not me on board 





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Enfys, you obviously know this breed well so would you mind a few questions?

Firstly let me make it clear that I think they are beautiful horses and it's only their gait I dislike. I have heard before they have amazing temperaments and I believe are often used as therapy horses because of that.

However.. back to the elephant in the room. The gait. Firstly, do they also have a 'normal' range of movement; judging by your picture I think they must have. But, is there a normal two-beat trot and three beat canter?

Secondly, how do their feet and limbs stand up to what appears to be a terrific amount of concussion?

Thirdly.. and I suspect this will be the hardest to answer.. but .. why?? What is the purpose of this gait? What was it originally used for? And how much has the natural gait been changed by selective breeding to the gait we see in the first video?

I am not trying to be contentious, but since you are the first person I have 'met' who has personal experience of the breed I really would love to know!


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## Hjpia (16 August 2015)

Faracat said:



			Lots of hysteria and ignorance. Look at the video on here which explains it very well.

http://www.pfha.org/the-breed/gaits

ETA -
		
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There is a strain of mutant goat which faints instantly on becoming excited. It's 'natural' but actually a mutation which results in excitement (probably epinephrine release) becoming linked with this seizure-like fainting behaviour.
Anyway I'm no expert and it's an entirely unproven theory of my mind but I think this 'natural' gait is a it like those dropping goats... Discuss


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## ester (16 August 2015)

Ladyinred said:



			I know it's 'natural' but the amount of concussion to the feet and legs must be many times that of a normal horse covering the same distance.

I find it ugly and unnatural.
		
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I don't think they do it for miles! This is no different to the extreme collection of piaffe/passage. I'm also inclined to agree with ycmb about the concussion, this is small movement, much less concussion than a stompy welsh trot. 

Sometimes I am amazed at what HHO can be appalled by, this is nothing like big lick walkers!

The only think I don't like about pasos is I don't think some of their tail sets are quite as natural .


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## Hjpia (16 August 2015)

Illusion100 said:



			Looks as natural as the Big Lick...
		
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Agreed


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## rara007 (16 August 2015)

Hjpia said:



			Agreed
		
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And piaffe and passage and show jumping and flat and jump racing and eventing (and whatever else you expect your horse to do or enjoy watching?) they are an older breed than the TB I think? Or do you too have przewalski horses and just watch them roam?


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## Hjpia (16 August 2015)

No coz we train these gaits (piaffe etc) and they're performed in response to the aid. Actually I was wrong to agree to the analogy of the big lick as this is trained too, you're right. I think the fainting goats are an old breed too though. Age of breed has nothing to do with it I think - sometimes if a mutation is harmless or even beneficial it can be a permanent feature of the breed. Look at albinism for example - a mutation but carried.
It's only postulation - I'm not meaning to offend anyone! I think it's interesting.


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## Meowy Catkin (16 August 2015)

I just don't see how a four beat gait can have more concussion than a two beat gait (trot). I actually think that each footfall of a four beat gait would have less concussion. The way that the back stays level also indicates this.

ETA - As there is no moment of suspension in a four beat gait, this also backs up the 'less concussion than trot' argument. 

I suspect that a lot of people don't 'get' it simply because they are not used to it.

If we are going to ask what is the point of a four beat gait, surely we also need to ask what is the point of a two beat or three beat gait?


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## pennyturner (16 August 2015)

The concussion thing...

Imagine you're a geisha, gliding across a floor with tiny fast little steps (Paso Fino).  Now imagine a high-stepping military march (Welsh D).  Which do you imagine having more concussion on your legs?


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## MotherOfChickens (16 August 2015)

Pasos are exquisite wee horses, very sensitive and comfortable to ride with a lot of presence- mini-Iberians!. do people think that Icelandic horses are trained cruelly wrt their gaits?

It used to be way more common to have gaited horses (hundreds of years ago) for people to travel long distances -palfreys, gaited mules etc. I don't know an awful lot about them (although have ridden pasos, TWs and Icelandics) but I remember having a conversation with someone about the genetics of gaits in the different breeds.


eta have just read Barnacle's excellent post, just ignore mine!


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## rara007 (16 August 2015)

That's the point- it's not a mutation!

I could train my pony all my life and he won't gallop at full tilt or passage, (we do try though!) the foals at futurity passage and TBs gallop in the field though.


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## Hjpia (16 August 2015)

Ok!


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## Meowy Catkin (16 August 2015)

It should be added that if the horse was going to cover a large distance in the four four beat gait, it wouldn't use the collected 'classic fino' version (as demonstrated by the horse in the facebook link), it would use the 'paso largo' version.


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## cobgoblin (16 August 2015)

Wow! Some of you don't like anything a bit different do you?
I think these horses are quite fascinating. I'd love to ride one, just as I'd love to try an Icelandic.


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## ester (16 August 2015)

Hjpia said:



			No coz we train these gaits (piaffe etc) and they're performed in response to the aid. Actually I was wrong to agree to the analogy of the big lick as this is trained too, you're right. I think the fainting goats are an old breed too though. Age of breed has nothing to do with it I think - sometimes if a mutation is harmless or even beneficial it can be a permanent feature of the breed. Look at albinism for example - a mutation but carried.
It's only postulation - I'm not meaning to offend anyone! I think it's interesting.
		
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This is also performed in response to an aid, it doesn't do this all the time! Piaffe/passage is an exaggeration of a natural gait- so is this, so is big lick (albeit with a huge amount of artificial enhancements, I don't see how putting horses on platforms is anywhere near this).


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## ester (16 August 2015)

Faracat said:



			I just don't see how a four beat gait can have more concussion than a two beat gait (trot). I actually think that each footfall of a four beat gait would have less concussion. The way that the back stays level also indicates this.

ETA - As there is no moment of suspension in a four beat gait, this also backs up the 'less concussion than trot' argument. 

I suspect that a lot of people don't 'get' it simply because they are not used to it.

If we are going to ask what is the point of a four beat gait, surely we also need to ask what is the point of a two beat or three beat gait?
		
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Remind me why we walk ?

I don't think talk of mutations are terribly helpful in this context.


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## ChesnutsRoasting (16 August 2015)

....off to source a Paso Fino. My type of pony-horse&#128512;


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## Hjpia (16 August 2015)

ester said:



			This is also performed in response to an aid, it doesn't do this all the time! Piaffe/passage is an exaggeration of a natural gait- so is this, so is big lick (albeit with a huge amount of artificial enhancements, I don't see how putting horses on platforms is anywhere near this).
		
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Not true Esther. It is a natural gait - these horses are all born with it but they switch into and out of it. In other words they display an 'extra gait' characteristic of the breed. No doubt they can be prompted by an aid to do it on request as it were - but they are born with the ability and display it intermittently.

The debate about gait and mutation is quite relevant actually. If you look at the work of Prof Leif Andersson of Uppsala University Sweden - they found a mutation in both copies (ie horses displaying were heterozygous therefore the mutation is recessive) of the DMRT3 gene in the genomes of all horses who display pacing. Interesting in other horses assessed within the same study which displayed extra gaits (don't know whether this included the Paso Fino or not) were found not to have abnormal copies of this gene.
Just science folks! I love it personally!


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## ester (16 August 2015)

I know it is an extra gait.... 
horses passage in the field too but do it on cue so I don't understand the difference/your point. 

I have a science PhD and work in genetics so I'm ok with that thanks  and links are always useful. I am not sure if you are suggesting that a gait change due to a SNP or multiple SNPs is a problem/wrong or not?
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v488/n7413/full/nature11399.html?WT.ec_id=NATURE-20120830


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## Hjpia (16 August 2015)

I think you've answered your own question with the nature article Esther and no doubt your PhD will facilitate this further. Im afraid I didn't read the whole paper and I'm on call so unlikely to do it today but My point was and still is that this is a extra gait and that extra gaits have been found to be genetically linked


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## Hjpia (16 August 2015)

I think you've answered your own question with the nature article and no doubt your PhD will facilitate this further. Im afraid I didn't read the whole paper and I'm on call today so unlikely to don't before tomorrow but my point was and still is that this is a extra gait and that extra gaits have been found to be genetically linked. Some are a mutation (paper) some unknown. This paso fino gait is specific to the breed; it can be performed by no other breed of horse whereas, yes passage is an exaggerated normal gait that many breeds of horse can do both naturally and through training and instruction.


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## *Sahara (16 August 2015)

As most of us have said this is completely natural:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=yP2dTIAikTc

I remember watching a video on paso fino and its gaits a long time ago, found it very interesting 

Faracat oh that foal  it really made me smile


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## exracehorse (16 August 2015)

My neighbour breeds and shows paso in Suffolk, they have a clinic coming up, every one is welcome to watch and ask questions.


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## ester (16 August 2015)

Hjpia said:



			I think you've answered your own question with the nature article and no doubt your PhD will facilitate this further. Im afraid I didn't read the whole paper and I'm on call today so unlikely to don't before tomorrow but my point was and still is that this is a extra gait and that extra gaits have been found to be genetically linked. Some are a mutation (paper) some unknown. This paso fino gait is specific to the breed; it can be performed by no other breed of horse whereas, yes passage is an exaggerated normal gait that many breeds of horse can do both naturally and through training and instruction.
		
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So you aren't seeing it as either good or bad? just stating fact?- yet you compare it to big lick. Essentially as a naturally occurring mutation so long as these horses could still run away from predators as fast I don't see the issue, even more so given that all of the horses we ride are products of such changes as Rara highlights. 

The paper didn't answer my question, I already knew about it and had read it previously, I was asking you, personally, how it had formed your opinion given that you suggested that we could link paso finos to a discussion on fainting goats/it is equivalent to big lick (ie soring, huge padded shoes, etc etc). 

Ps, Ester, no H. I'm a sad geek as it comes from one of my main study bacteria!


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## tallyho! (16 August 2015)

I love Paso Finos! That foal is just too cute!


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## Hjpia (16 August 2015)

Here's a rather more user friendly non-sciency article which people might find interesting. 
I'm not denigrating the breed or the mutation or anything controversial! It is very interesting to me that this gait can result from a mutation. I initially postulated that it might be a mutation then the hostile responses had me more curious as to why people seem to associate mutations with only negative things. Anyway the paso finos display the 'gait keeper' mutation in almost 100% of cases. (Now what's fascinating about that is the 'almost' but I'll spare you as this could get really boring)

Here's for anyone who is interested...

http://www.natureworldnews.com/arti...ontributed-spread-genetic-mutation-horses.htm


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## ester (16 August 2015)

It is also worth noting that hipparion, (3.5 million years ago) had a running walk, maybe the human selection has therefore occurred the other way, and that we have mostly selected for non gaited animals. . .and that nature kept it's options open .


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## ester (16 August 2015)

Hjpia said:



			Here's a rather more user friendly non-sciency article which people might find interesting. 
I'm not denigrating the breed or the mutation or anything controversial! It is very interesting to me that this gait can result from a mutation. I initially postulated that it might be a mutation then the hostile responses had me more curious as to why people seem to associate mutations with only negative things. Anyway the paso finos display the 'gait keeper' mutation in almost 100% of cases. (Now what's fascinating about that is the 'almost' but I'll spare you as this could get really boring)

Here's for anyone who is interested...

http://www.natureworldnews.com/arti...ontributed-spread-genetic-mutation-horses.htm

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So why did you say it was like big lick?


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## Hjpia (16 August 2015)

God almighty - no I don't think it's bad or good. I already apologised for giving the big lick comment a nod - it was more a recognition that it too looked rather unnatural. Yes big lick training is very nasty and bad.

My response by looking into the genetics was actually in response to another poster who thought the mutation question unhelpful...
A horses gait, a fainting goat - they're all stereotypic behaviours resulting from a mutation. That's the link. It was the goats that made me wonder whether this gait is similarly inherited. It is. I'm done.

P.S I'm sorry I spelt your name wrong.


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## Gloi (16 August 2015)

ester said:



			It is also worth noting that hipparion, (3.5 million years ago) had a running walk, maybe the human selection has therefore occurred the other way, and that we have mostly selected for non gaited animals. . .and that nature kept it's options open .
		
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In the UK it has happened that way, that selection happened for none gaited animals at a time when the demand was for trotting horses for driving, rather than the palfeys for riding.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palfrey


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## ester (16 August 2015)

I said I thought that mutation terminology might be unhelpful because it risks being used in an unscientific way on a board such as this and that these horses might start being thought of as 'mutants', where it is clear some posters seemed to be appalled that this exists at all. It is only due to a mutation on the basis that pretty much all phenotypic traits are the result of a genetic mutation, it just happens to be a particularly interesting one because it appears to be linked to a single mutation. I presumed given the comparison to fainting goats (pretty unhelpful if you are being chased!) that both were deemed bad whereas I see different paces in horses, so long as speed is maintained not a bad thing and quite likely evolutionary helpful if it reduces the amount of energy needed to travel at speed.

Fwiw fainting goats are not caused by a single mutation, nor is the disorder in humans.


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## Meowy Catkin (16 August 2015)

ester said:



			it is clear some posters seemed to be appalled that this exists at all.
		
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Which isn't something that I would have predicted.


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## Hjpia (16 August 2015)

Quite so. 
And just to be clear, at no point was it my intention to suggest that these magnificent and majestic creatures were synonymous with an unconscious goat. 

I apologise unreservedly if this was how my comment was understood. 

If I knew how to post a smiley - this would be where Id put it -->


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## ester (16 August 2015)

Faracat said:



			Which isn't something that I would have predicted.
		
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No, I'm a bit baffled too!


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## Meowy Catkin (16 August 2015)

Hjpia said:



			If I knew how to post a smiley - this would be where Id put it -->
		
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You have been most entertaining. 

A quick smiley guide (don't type the gap for the smiley to show).

: ) = 
; ) = 
: ( = 
: D = 
: p = 
:eek : =


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## Yertis (16 August 2015)

sorry, I couldn't do smileys either and couldn't resist a quick practice (sad old git)


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## MotherOfChickens (16 August 2015)

ester said:



			No, I'm a bit baffled too!
		
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really? on a board where a red bridle is seen as somehow breaking the laws of all that's good and holey?  


(I'd have included Faracat as well if I could do multiple quotes!)


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## cobgoblin (16 August 2015)

.....trots off to buy a Paso Fino and furnish it with a red saddle and bridle......


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## mungasmum (16 August 2015)

Yawn..... Am I the only person who found this thread became rather tedious when others started to 'out-intellectualise' each other?


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## cobgoblin (16 August 2015)

mungasmum said:



			Yawn..... Am I the only person who found this thread became rather tedious when others started to 'out-intellectualise' each other?
		
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Nope - I always lose interest when people start stating their qualifications. Besides which I'm now really taken with the idea of a red saddle.


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## mungasmum (16 August 2015)

cobgoblin said:



			Nope - I always lose interest when people start stating their qualifications. Besides which I'm now really taken with the idea of a red saddle.
		
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Lol! Happy shopping!


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## fburton (16 August 2015)

I'm always a bit suspicious of artificial extremes, and liking of extreme traits in animals, because of where that can potentially lead. Even the desire for athletic extremes has this risk (witness doping scandals). I also feel the love of extremes is a bit unhealthy but also recognize it is an entirely normal part of human nature.

That said, I don't think that the Paso Fino gait (like other gaits) is considered by anyone to be a welfare concern, right?, so it's _nothing_ like Big Lick. As far as I know there are no associated health issues, as there are e.g. around some purebred dog breeds. So I'm pretty relaxed about Paso Finos, and although I personally don't see the attraction of such extreme collection, it's not my business to dictate what other people like as long as no harm is done.

And I _do_ like the idea of breeding for friendliness and biddability (in moderation!).


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## ester (16 August 2015)

cobgoblin said:



			Nope - I always lose interest when people start stating their qualifications. Besides which I'm now really taken with the idea of a red saddle.
		
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I only did to point out that she didn't need to spend ages explaining genetics to me after the it's just science comment and to try and get her to understand my question, which we got to in the end! As I genuinely couldn't understand the links and connections that the examples were supposed to be making. Sorry!

Anyway I have concluded that 'different' gaits are probably as old as the 'normal' ones so can't see the cruelty.


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## Barnacle (16 August 2015)

Just wanted to point out that all "natural" traits are ultimately the result of mutation... Fainting goats (btw this is an adaptive trait), ambling gaits, coat colour or human hair colour...  A "mutation" is how all genetic variation comes about and they are heritable. It's a completely moot point to state this as a characteristic of a trait!


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## ester (16 August 2015)

Barnacle said:



			It's a completely moot point to state this as a characteristic of a trait!
		
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I like you. 

I guess the point is whether we were responsible for it's propagation or more natural selection. 

I didn't realise it was adaptive (other than them being easier to keep in! )


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## Meowy Catkin (16 August 2015)

*Whispers* I quite like the brightly coloured endurance bridles.


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## *Sahara (16 August 2015)

Faracat said:



			*Whispers* I quite like the brightly coloured endurance bridles. 

Click to expand...

Me too


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## MotherOfChickens (16 August 2015)

cobgoblin said:



			Nope - I always lose interest when people start stating their qualifications. Besides which I'm now really taken with the idea of a red saddle.
		
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if you find one, ask if they do it in orange...


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## saddlesore (16 August 2015)

Faracat said:



			*Whispers* I quite like the brightly coloured endurance bridles. 

Click to expand...

Glad I'm not alone- and I've since bought a blue one to alternate with the highly contentious red one lol.


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## *Sahara (16 August 2015)

saddlesore said:



			Glad I'm not alone- and I've since bought a blue one to alternate with the highly contentious red one lol.
		
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I'm thinking of green


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## cobgoblin (16 August 2015)

MotherOfChickens said:



			if you find one, ask if they do it in orange...
		
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WOW will make any colour you like. ( yes, I did actually ask them!).


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## saddlesore (16 August 2015)

*Sahara said:



			I'm thinking of green 

Click to expand...

Do it! I love mine


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## ester (16 August 2015)

Faracat said:



			*Whispers* I quite like the brightly coloured endurance bridles. 

Click to expand...

You've probably even got a red or pink one for your ginger boy .


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## ester (16 August 2015)

MotherOfChickens said:



			if you find one, ask if they do it in orange...
		
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london tan surely? .


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## *Sahara (16 August 2015)

saddlesore said:



			Do it! I love mine 

Click to expand...

I will


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## Meowy Catkin (16 August 2015)

ester said:



			You've probably even got a red or pink one for your ginger boy .
		
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I was tempted with red for him, but then thought _orange,_ wimped out and pondered about black and then bought none of them, so he's still in my grey's old bridle. I'm great at spending money as you can see.


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## Micropony (16 August 2015)

This has been a really interesting thread - I knew very little indeed about gaited horses and now I am slightly less ignorant.  Thanks for all those great article references (genetics still melts my brain though).


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## MotherOfChickens (16 August 2015)

ester said:



			london tan surely? .
		
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see, I also love London tan  its the closet sjer in me  just had a tan cavesson/bitless bridle made for one of mine (he has an orange saddle cloth and matching polos though..)


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## MotherOfChickens (16 August 2015)

cobgoblin said:



			WOW will make any colour you like. ( yes, I did actually ask them!).
		
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lol-already have a wow, think OH would have a melt down if I got a new one! Maybe they can do orange (london tan  ) relvas flaps for me *dreams*


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## Illusion100 (17 August 2015)

Just had a quick read through the thread so not taken in all details but as I understand it this admired gait is caused by a mutation?

If a foal (as in the video) moves this way naturally, can it be taught 'normal' movement? 

I really can't see the attraction with this whatsoever but a minority like it very much. As for the vids posted, they really weren't enjoyable for me for many reasons.

I just don't see the point of encouraging this type of mutated movement. I see it as a novelty the breed developed, breeders gave the gait a specific name to justify it as 'normal' and as such, some people admire the abnormality. I do not see it as a positive mutation as what natural purpose does it serve?

It's certainly not for me, I don't like it at all no matter the reasons behind it. 

Nothing against Paso Finos, just that unnatural gait.


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## Meowy Catkin (17 August 2015)

The word 'mutation' has mislead you, as Ester feared might happen. It's not a new mutation at all, but one from the annals of time, way, way, way back. It's not less natural than trot, pacing or the mutation that causes grey coats. This isn't something that humans have inflicted on horses.. To think of four beat gaits as an abnormality is plain wrong. It just looks odd as we don't really have gaited breeds in the UK any more (we used to 100's of years ago).

I hope that makes sense? I do ramble when tired. 

ETA - Barnacle's link has a quote about Palfreys, which were gaited horses in the UK from 1171.


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## Illusion100 (17 August 2015)

Faracat said:



			The word 'mutation' has mislead you, as Ester feared might happen. It's not a new mutation at all, but one from the annals of time, way, way, way back. It's not less natural than trot, pacing or the mutation that causes grey coats. This isn't something that humans have inflicted on horses.. To think of four beat gaits as an abnormality is plain wrong. It just looks odd as we don't really have gaited breeds in the UK any more (we used to 100's of years ago).

I hope that makes sense? I do ramble when tired.  

ETA - Barnacle's link has a quote about Palfreys, which were gaited horses in the UK from 1171.
		
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Will have a thorough re-read through thread soon, I'm also pretty tired out too. I don't think of a four beat gait as abnormal, I just see it as the 'normal' walk or gallop.

The term 'mutation' hasn't mislead me. The relevance of developing it to this extent in a specific breed to an extreme isn't something I can admire.

I can appreciate a gaited breed, however I feel things can be taken too far.

Anyway, bed time!


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## spottybotty (17 August 2015)

Faracat said:



			The word 'mutation' has mislead you, as Ester feared might happen. It's not a new mutation at all, but one from the annals of time, way, way, way back. It's not less natural than trot, pacing or the mutation that causes grey coats. This isn't something that humans have inflicted on horses.. To think of four beat gaits as an abnormality is plain wrong. It just looks odd as we don't really have gaited breeds in the UK any more (we used to 100's of years ago).

I hope that makes sense? I do ramble when tired. 

ETA - Barnacle's link has a quote about Palfreys, which were gaited horses in the UK from 1171.
		
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The nursery rhyme "Ride a cock horse to Banbury cross" is about Queen Elizabeth 1 riding a gaited horse.


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## ycbm (17 August 2015)

Illusion100 said:



			Just had a quick read through the thread so not taken in all details but as I understand it this admired gait is caused by a mutation?

If a foal (as in the video) moves this way naturally, can it be taught 'normal' movement? 

I really can't see the attraction with this whatsoever but a minority like it very much. As for the vids posted, they really weren't enjoyable for me for many reasons.

I just don't see the point of encouraging this type of mutated movement. I see it as a novelty the breed developed, breeders gave the gait a specific name to justify it as 'normal' and as such, some people admire the abnormality. I do not see it as a positive mutation as what natural purpose does it serve?

It's certainly not for me, I don't like it at all no matter the reasons behind it. 

Nothing against Paso Finos, just that unnatural gait.
		
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Illusion I suspect that it is biomechanically very effective to have the Paso type walk. The horse is using the least possible energy to move its legs, not wasting energy or causing concussion by lifting its body at all. 

The video you showed is taken to the extreme (and I find it unattractive), but no more 'unnatural' than passage, piaffe, one time changes and pirouetttes in a GP dressage test. I dislike seeing most horses pirouette, it's so laboured and unnatural looking.  I've seen video of a horse cantering backwards, what on earth is that about?

It's not the mutation that caused the pace that's the problem, I think, it's man's desire to take all these things to extremes.

What did shock me is the size of that man on that tiny horse. I don't know if it's even an adult horse, it looks about two years old.


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## ester (17 August 2015)

Yes that is the point, 

and thank you illusion for illustrating my point beautifully about the use of the word mutation . It isn't unnatural, in fact the inability to do it could well be the mutation given fossil evidence of tracks.

Afaik paso showing is all about whose horse can keep the best rhythm, not sure if the fastest rhythm comes into it. That is why they do it on a board- so you can hear the rhythm but I think it is also thought it helps the horse too. Yes this is taking the gait to the extreme but no more than piaffe IMO.


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## cobgoblin (17 August 2015)

Having watched quite a few videos now that include the less collected versions of the gait, I have to say that I think we're missing out the the UK. What a shame all our gaited horses were bred out of the system. We are missing out on some wonderful leisure and endurance horses.
Anyone for the reintroduction of the palfrey?


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## ILuvCowparsely (17 August 2015)

It's not my cup of tea and would not buy one.  That said it is still beauty in it's own right as is  horses who trot laterally  or the western paces also are different and are not to everyone's liking.  I respect everyone has a choice and views but to use *YUK* is a bit strong.

  None of us have the same taste in horses or equitation, some people are of the opinion that dressage is like watching paint dry or why have horses who cannot be ridden.

There is also ambling 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cT6oboVzQbw&list=PLgjsPANvU55HXBrUs-kAhfXLnOdEgCpLd

and Tolt

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UghhSq1DtjQ

 all have a natural thing about them


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## Ormsweird (17 August 2015)

As re-enactors we'd love to have palfrey's back in the UK!


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## Lanky Loll (17 August 2015)

cobgoblin said:



			Having watched quite a few videos now that include the less collected versions of the gait, I have to say that I think we're missing out the the UK. What a shame all our gaited horses were bred out of the system. We are missing out on some wonderful leisure and endurance horses.
Anyone for the reintroduction of the palfrey?
		
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Standardbreds make fantastic endurance horses as they can pace at a "jog" for hours


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## Speedyfluff (17 August 2015)

Faracat said:



			Lots of hysteria and ignorance. Look at the video on here which explains it very well.

http://www.pfha.org/the-breed/gaits

ETA -
		
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Those riders are HUGE on those little horses. The horses appear to have extremely small hooves and spindly legs. I guess it just shows how different cultures view the loading of horses. I also don't like the incredibly long shanks of the curb bits. I really feel sorry for those little horses, though it is not anywhere as bad as the big lick.


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## *Sahara (17 August 2015)

Speedyfluff said:



			Those riders are HUGE on those little horses. The horses appear to have extremely small hooves and spindly legs. I guess it just shows how different cultures view the loading of horses. I also don't like the incredibly long shanks of the curb bits. I really feel sorry for those little horses, though it is not anywhere as bad as the big lick.
		
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But they are short-backed and seem to be built like Arabs (although I have not done a great deal of research on the breed) they seem to be another type of small horse that is designed to carry weight, small dose not always mean week


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## ester (17 August 2015)

Speedyfluff said:



			Those riders are HUGE on those little horses. The horses appear to have extremely small hooves and spindly legs. I guess it just shows how different cultures view the loading of horses. I also don't like the incredibly long shanks of the curb bits. I really feel sorry for those little horses, though it is not anywhere as bad as the big lick.
		
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No different to arabs/quarter horses I should think.


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## Meowy Catkin (17 August 2015)

It looks like a snaffle and draw reins (with attachments that the draw reins slide through), not a long shanked bit to me.


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## MotherOfChickens (17 August 2015)

Speedyfluff said:



			Those riders are HUGE on those little horses. The horses appear to have extremely small hooves and spindly legs. I guess it just shows how different cultures view the loading of horses. I also don't like the incredibly long shanks of the curb bits. I really feel sorry for those little horses, though it is not anywhere as bad as the big lick.
		
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The Pasos I met down in England were started in bosals, then snaffles I think and then curbs. The really big curbs were for show but the fact is, as in other countries, the curb is supposed to demonstrate how well schooled the horse is and how light the rider's hands should be. The really big curbs tend to have a bend in them so they aren't quite as dramatic as they appear. They aren't used for brakes in the same way 'our' three ring gags, kimblewicks and pelhams with roundings etc are.


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## Cortez (17 August 2015)

spottybotty said:



			The nursery rhyme "Ride a cock horse to Banbury cross" is about Queen Elizabeth 1 riding a gaited horse.
		
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Although a "cock" or "cocked" horse is one with a docked tail, actually.

Just to add to the debate, Paso Finos (and Peruvian Pasos) are great little horses. I have a particular fondness for many of the gaited breeds and would certainly have a TW, Paso or Missouri Foxtrotter if I could get one. Ambling horses are way, way older than our present, boring W/T/C breeds.


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## Meowy Catkin (17 August 2015)

Illusion100 said:



			I can appreciate a gaited breed, however I feel things can be taken too far.
		
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If Classic Fino is taking a four beat gait too far, then passage and piaffe must be taking a two beat gait too far? They are surely directly comparable equivalents?


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## Caol Ila (17 August 2015)

Why are there so few gaited horses in the UK?  They are everywhere in the Americas, but don't seem to have caught on here.


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## Meowy Catkin (17 August 2015)

I don't think that they didn't catch on as we used to have gaited horses. It's more that they fell out of favour, so weren't bred anymore.


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## MotherOfChickens (17 August 2015)

Caol Ila said:



			Why are there so few gaited horses in the UK?  They are everywhere in the Americas, but don't seem to have caught on here.
		
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maybe its just that in the last couple of hundred years we went the carriage route for posh folk and have a hunting/racing tradition so they fell out of fashion. There used to be gaited Iberians but don't think you find them there much either now.


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## Beausmate (17 August 2015)

Our Anticob has an extra gait.  Not sure exactly what he does, but it's sort of a four-beat trot thing.  Soooo comfy!  OH calls it scuttling


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## ester (17 August 2015)

because we had carriage trotters and fast gallopers and the landed gentry had staff to amble round their estates for them?


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## Gloi (17 August 2015)

duplicate


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## Gloi (17 August 2015)

I've had Icies for over 20 years and I really miss the extra gaits when I ride anything else, it's like having missing gears on the car   As Beausmate says with hers though, there are UK horses with extra gaits there, people just don't know what to do with them and try and train them into being ordinary 3 gaited horses.


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## paddy555 (17 August 2015)

Caol Ila said:



			Why are there so few gaited horses in the UK?  They are everywhere in the Americas, but don't seem to have caught on here.
		
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because it's been tried and it failed due to the narrow mindedness of UK people.  Peruvian Paso's were brought in in the early 90's. No one, like no one was interested. Not only were they not interested in the horses they were also not even interested in knowing anything about them. They didn't understand "gaiting" and except for Icey people appeared to have no wish to learn. 
I soon stopped trying to explain how a gaited horse moved to a very disinterested audience. 

I used to ride my ex stud stallion in full peruvian tack (which is way different from English tack). He had so much brio that he was almost out of this world and yet no one even noticed him. 

The Paso's are gaited over the sounding board so you can hear the beat of the gait. They are ridden normally otherwise. That is the way they move. The Fino's and Peruvians have different gaits but are approximately similar in how they perform. To them it is normal. You cannot train them to be normal, this is normality to them. 
Some of mine could only gait. One could gait, trot on the diagonals, pace laterally and canter in 3 time. One would trot in the field but gait with a rider up. 

They are very special and there is nothing like riding a gaited horse that is just about over the top with brio but still under control. You are sitting there with just about no movement on your part as they should be very smooth. This thing is going hell for leather in overdrive brio.

The peruvians had curbed bits. They were trained in 4 reins. When first broken they were ridden in a bosal which is similar to a side pull. As they progressed they went into 4 reins ie they had a bit plus the bosal and you rode in 2 sets of reins. Gradually as they progressed through training the bosal went when the horse became fully trained.

I suppose they are in fact pure spanish horses that went over with the conquistadores. They retained the Spanish temperament and manners, carriage, balance  etc.


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## paddy555 (17 August 2015)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SMLmJeszMQ

hopefully this will work. It is at the Peruvian Nat show in Lima showing how they move. The horses are probably around 14.2 and the riders normal sized. It seems to be Fino's that attract massive grotesque men sometimes.There was a documentary in part of a Michael Palin travel program of a PF being ridden in S America by a drug baron. He was 25 stone at least.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNt_uavHHJ8


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## cobgoblin (17 August 2015)

paddy555 said:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SMLmJeszMQ

hopefully this will work. It is at the Peruvian Nat show in Lima showing how they move. The horses are probably around 14.2 and the riders normal sized. It seems to be Fino's that attract massive grotesque men sometimes.There was a documentary in part of a Michael Palin travel program of a PF being ridden in S America by a drug baron. He was 25 stone at least.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNt_uavHHJ8

Click to expand...

I think they look great fun, but what is that cage-like contraption hanging round their hocks?


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## rara007 (17 August 2015)

Cortez said:



			Although a "cock" or "cocked" horse is one with a docked tail, actually..
		
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I always assumed it referred to a driving cock horse- one you hire to get your team up the hill.


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## Meowy Catkin (17 August 2015)

paddy555 said:



			because it's been tried and it failed due to the narrow mindedness of UK people.  Peruvian Paso's were brought in in the early 90's. No one, like no one was interested. Not only were they not interested in the horses they were also not even interested in knowing anything about them. They didn't understand "gaiting" and except for Icey people appeared to have no wish to learn.
		
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What a damn shame.


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## ester (17 August 2015)

I remember seeing one at a jousting demo in the new forest circa 1993. They had 2 falabellas too!


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## ycbm (17 August 2015)

paddy555 said:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SMLmJeszMQ

hopefully this will work. It is at the Peruvian Nat show in Lima showing how they move. The horses are probably around 14.2 and the riders normal sized. It seems to be Fino's that attract massive grotesque men sometimes.There was a documentary in part of a Michael Palin travel program of a PF being ridden in S America by a drug baron. He was 25 stone at least.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNt_uavHHJ8

Click to expand...


I love the winner, he looks completely natural. The others look like they are being bred and trained  for higher and higher knee action, and more and more 'scuttle'  (for want of a better word)  behind and I would be concerned about where the breed is going if that continues.  

I'm finding it very interesting to compare the 'in an outline, for us or them?', thread and this one.  Does anyone know about the working longevity of these little fellas?


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## Cortez (17 August 2015)

Well, I've ridden a Peruvian stallion that was 25 and went like the clappers and was about 14 hands (in South America).


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## ozpoz (17 August 2015)

Thanks, really interesting link. : ) I love seeing something new. 



paddy555 said:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SMLmJeszMQ

hopefully this will work. It is at the Peruvian Nat show in Lima showing how they move. The horses are probably around 14.2 and the riders normal sized. It seems to be Fino's that attract massive grotesque men sometimes.There was a documentary in part of a Michael Palin travel program of a PF being ridden in S America by a drug baron. He was 25 stone at least.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNt_uavHHJ8

Click to expand...


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## paddy555 (17 August 2015)

Cortez said:



			Well, I've ridden a Peruvian stallion that was 25 and went like the clappers and was about 14 hands (in South America).
		
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and I bet you enjoyed every minute of it!!


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## paddy555 (17 August 2015)

ycbm said:



			I love the winner, he looks completely natural. The others look like they are being bred and trained  for higher and higher knee action, and more and more 'scuttle'  (for want of a better word)  behind and I would be concerned about where the breed is going if that continues.
		
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no they are not. Different lines of the breed simply have different action just as in any breed.The link below explains "termino" the front leg action. It is natural, some have more  termino than others. Unlike Tennessee Walkers who are artificially trained with shoes etc to produce more exagerated leg action PP's aren't.  I think they are all shown unshod anyway. If you watch the video you will see it would be very difficult to train to exagerate termino.  It comes from the shoulders, from the looseness and fluidity of the shoulders. A horse with good termino (front leg action) would be a naturally well gaited horse. 



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eUitupQwao

Cobgoblin, the cage contraption is traditional Peruvian tack. They have a  crupper and a large leather tail cover on top of the tail. They  then have leather breeching (as in carriage horses) round behind their hind legs which fastens on the side of saddle. 
It is all very ornate, hand carved, silver on the show bridle and very decorative. (the show tack) They don't need this sort of tack to gait, they will do that naturally bareback with a neck ring, it just happens to be the traditional tack. These horses were ranch horses in Peru and also owned by the wealthy estancia owners so probably status symbols etc. They came from a background of Spain and aristocracy so luxury and money and quality etc all went into the tack.


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## paddy555 (17 August 2015)

just for a bit of fun this is what the well dressed Peruvian Paso will be wearing!!!



http://www.supergait.com/tack


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## DressageCob (17 August 2015)

When I lived in Peru I rode these horses frequently. Beautiful animals. 

Most of the tack is for show. It's ornate but not as heavy as it looks. Generally riding at home you wouldn't bother with all of that. 

I worked behind the scenes at that show in 2008 (I think it was that year). The horses were treated like princes. They weren't beaten up outside and they didn't have any nasty contraptions put on them. There's great pride in these horses and they are treated with the utmost respect. 

The oldest working paso peruano I rode was 35. He was called Tupac (After the revolutionary, not the rapper) and was 14hh of pure muscle. He was beautiful and graceful. He died aged 40 and worked up to 39. They had others who were in their late 20s and early 30s, still in work. That yard had never had a horse with a tendon issue, but that might just be coincidence. 

I don't understand all the people saying this paso corto is unnatural. It's completely the opposite. I knew a dealer in Chaclacayo who refused to sell to anyone looking for a pure leisure horse. This was after he had a run of people wanting to return the pasos he'd sold them because they kept doing their natural additional gaits and the owners couldn't work out how to make them move "like a proper horse" 
Another woman phoned me to say that her foal was having a seizure...turned out just to be doing a natural gait around the field


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## ycbm (17 August 2015)

This is really interesting!  I'm unconvinced that the requirement of horse working in 'an outline' really is the most effective way of them moving. And I'm getting really concerned about the number of diagnoses of hind leg and sacroiliac issues that seem to be happening. The age of some of these little gaited horses, who move with their heads high and faces well in front of vertical, certainly seems to suggest that there's more than one way to skin a cat (where DID that expression come from!)

I'd love to ride one.


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## Embo (18 August 2015)

paddy555 said:



			just for a bit of fun this is what the well dressed Peruvian Paso will be wearing!!!



http://www.supergait.com/tack

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That saddle is amazing! That detail carved into the leather! Wow!

Have seen the video of the foal many times and it really makes me smile - so cute. 

I think gaited horses are fascinating. I would love to ride one of each!


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## kez81 (18 August 2015)

Illusion100 said:



			Just had a quick read through the thread so not taken in all details but as I understand it this admired gait is caused by a mutation?

If a foal (as in the video) moves this way naturally, can it be taught 'normal' movement? 

Yes, these foals can walk and trot just same as any other, they just choose to use this gait when it suits them (or when asked to when traines as riding horses). Some of them find it difficult to do the modern canter through. I say modern as in dressage style, collected and rounded. They will canter quite happily in their natural outline though which is typical of a lot of horses at liberty, with the head low and long. (I might not be explaining canter well, just google look at wild mustangs, step ponies etc and compare to trained ridng horse)

I really can't see the attraction with this whatsoever but a minority like it very much. As for the vids posted, they really weren't enjoyable for me for many reasons.
The attraction is the same as any other feature of a horse, it started of as practical (for working) and then became desirable for pleasure or showing and as such, has not been bred out in countries where the trait is required.

I just don't see the point of encouraging this type of mutated movement. I see it as a novelty the breed developed, breeders gave the gait a specific name to justify it as 'normal' and as such, some people admire the abnormality. I do not see it as a positive mutation as what natural purpose does it serve?
It is not mutated movement, it is natural to many of the "old" breeds. It is desirable as it is very energy efficient and comfortable to ride over long distance making gaited breeds quite suitable to endurance and as working horses. Many nomadic people for example, prize gaited horses because of this. Gaited movement is something we have bred out of many of our more modern breeds (particularly in Europe) as our riding needs have changed and the gaits were not needed/desired for the type of work our horses do. Its our modern horses therfore, that are the mutations!
Sadly there will always be cases where people will pervert this by deliberately breeding for over exaggeration of a desired trait, whether a gaited walk, dished face, high trot etc, just as there will probably always be a***holes who use disgusting training methods to do the same thing.
It's certainly not for me, I don't like it at all no matter the reasons behind it. 
Each to their own!

Nothing against Paso Finos, just that unnatural gait.
		
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Again its not unnatural at all. Just different to what most of us are now used to.


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## kez81 (18 August 2015)

Oh ******, my text was supposed to appear separate to yours Illusion100, to make it easier to read, damn computer!


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## ycbm (18 August 2015)

kez81 said:



			Again its not unnatural at all. Just different to what most of us are now used to.
		
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I understand that the pace is natural, and as I've said above I think it is probably very efficient. But there is a difference between  it being a natural pace and selective breeding  to exaggerate the natural pace, which can be taken to extremes (Arab dished faces - also natural, now freakshow?)  Some of the show horses (not the winner, he was lovely)  did look as though that might be happening.


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## cobgoblin (18 August 2015)

If Pasos have three gaited paces and the ordinary paces of walk, trot, canter etc. how easy is it to swap between gaited and non gaited? Is there an entirely different set of aids? Or is it a matter of collection?


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## Meowy Catkin (18 August 2015)

ycbm said:



			I understand that the pace is natural, and as I've said above I think it is probably very efficient. But there is a difference between  it being a natural pace and selective breeding  to exaggerate the natural pace, which can be taken to extremes (Arab dished faces - also natural, now freakshow?)  Some of the show horses (not the winner, he was lovely)  did look as though that might be happening.
		
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I didn't see a freakshow at all. I think that you are looking for problems where there aren't any. 

I did wonder if arab head shape would be mentioned on this thread. *le sigh*


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## Cortez (18 August 2015)

ycbm said:



			I understand that the pace is natural, and as I've said above I think it is probably very efficient. But there is a difference between  it being a natural pace and selective breeding  to exaggerate the natural pace, which can be taken to extremes (Arab dished faces - also natural, now freakshow?)  Some of the show horses (not the winner, he was lovely)  did look as though that might be happening.
		
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I think you are looking for sinister motives which are not there at all. Horses have always been selected for traits which we deem desireable, be that movement, conformation, colour or whatever. Gaited horses have been around since the very beginning (certainly longer than our present fancied sports horses), they've always moved that way and there is nothing artificial about them. The training, on the other hand, is what enhances the movements, just as with modern dressage.


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## paddy555 (18 August 2015)

cobgoblin said:



			If Pasos have three gaited paces and the ordinary paces of walk, trot, canter etc. how easy is it to swap between gaited and non gaited? Is there an entirely different set of aids? Or is it a matter of collection?
		
Click to expand...

they don't. One of mine could also trot and canter but I don't think that would have been thought particularly desirable. Riders wouldn't choose to move out of the gaits mine just happened to be very well established in them so it was a bit of fun sometimes to play with him. 

 A paso is a gaited horse unlike perhaps an Icey who can move between gaited and non gaited. If you have a paso you would expect to gait all the time. That is possibly why people in the UK don't like them as they would not be suitable for cantering around a ring and jumping for example. 

As for being natural if you had spent all your life living somewhere like Peru and had been brought up riding and training gaited horses and you then moved to England. You went for your first ride on say a warmblood (or similar) and it started trotting. You would think WFT as it hopped from one pair of diagonals to the other. You would be told sometimes you had to be rising when one front leg went forward and then sometimes you had to change the diagonal. All the time whilst you were bouncing around in the saddle trying to work out how the hell to rise in time with the horse at all. If you were a gentleman you may well be thinking "ouch!!!"  You would be remembering your time at home when you sat there like a king and the horse just moved smoothly. 

HelenAlbert, interesting comments. Which yard produced the horses you mentioned (if you don't mind me asking)


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## cobgoblin (18 August 2015)

Thanks Paddy555.
I was wondering because the foals seem to move in and out of gaited very easily but the adults were only shown in gait.
Does look comfy though!


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## fburton (18 August 2015)

Faracat said:



			I did wonder if arab head shape would be mentioned on this thread. *le sigh*
		
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I was going to mention it too. I don't see it as a problem unless, like many desirable traits, it is exaggerated or taken to extremes, based on the notion that if something is good then _more_ of that something _must_ be better. Take that too far and something beautiful risks ending up as a (sometimes grotesque) self-caricature.


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## kez81 (19 August 2015)

ycbm said:



			I understand that the pace is natural, and as I've said above I think it is probably very efficient. But there is a difference between  it being a natural pace and selective breeding  to exaggerate the natural pace, which can be taken to extremes (Arab dished faces - also natural, now freakshow?)  Some of the show horses (not the winner, he was lovely)  did look as though that might be happening.
		
Click to expand...

Which is what I said in my reply to illusion100, the post got split and my text is jumbled in with hers. Read all the quoted text you will see her questions in paragraph and my answers in paragraph below for each question.


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