# Repeal Possible Without Scottish Labour MPs



## Judgemental (19 September 2014)

If there is devolution so that Scottish MPs cannot vote on the legislation of England and Wales it is feasible for a repeal of the Hunting Act 2004 of England and Wales.

The Scottish Parliament voted for a ban. 

Therefore it is no longer fair for Scottish MP's to have a say in such matters and will be governed by The West Lothian Question.


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## Tea Drinker (19 September 2014)

Wow - that would be great.
Guess you'd have to look up how each (English) MP voted in the Ban, that are still serving MPs of course and then see if the Maths stack up. I would think that if DC thinks the maths are with him, he would put it up for a vote IF the Tories won the next election. UKIP are our biggest threat to over turning the Ban. They take away Tory votes at the general election.


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## Judgemental (19 September 2014)

Tea Drinker said:



			Wow - that would be great.
Guess you'd have to look up how each (English) MP voted in the Ban, that are still serving MPs of course and then see if the Maths stack up. I would think that if DC thinks the maths are with him, he would put it up for a vote IF the Tories won the next election. UKIP are our biggest threat to over turning the Ban. They take away Tory votes at the general election.
		
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This is a very interesting subject. 

Clearly the General Election campaign for May 2015 started today.

If only English and Welsh MPs are allowed to vote on matters of the laws of England and Wales the Hunting Act 2004 and repeal is a realistic runner.

So far as UKIP is concerned, Nigel Farage is running around the West Country glad handing every master of hounds he can ingratiate himself with, similary his general method of operation nationally is somewhat shallow and insincere..

At one time I thought he was a force to be reckoned with. Yes I know UKIP could take the Conservative vote and let Labour in the door.

However if the electorate are confident in devolution to the parliament in Westminster for matters exclusively English and Welsh they will see that a vote for the Conservatives will be an advantage. 

As for EU membership - no change for the foreseeable future.

However, the one element that has to be considered is Mr Milliband's personal interest in Land Tax and Business Rates, to be introduced for all farms and farm land.

He has said recently the issue has remained unchanged since 1929 and too many farmers and landowners are enriching themselves at the expense of the tax payer. I believe our Ed is something of an authority on the Single Farm Payment.

If I were in Mr Milliband's shoes I would say to the Conservatives, "we Labour will agree to a repeal of the Hunting Act 2004 (with certain reservations) on the understanding a land tax and business rates on all farms are nodded through Parliament".

After all, what are a few foxes and deer compared with the fiscal points that Labour would score with the electorate.


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## MerrySherryRider (19 September 2014)

On the contrary, Cameron, Clegg and Milliband are very vulnerable in the aftermath of the referendum. As the general public has consistently and overwhelmingly been opposed to the ban being lifted, I doubt they'll risk alienating an already pee'd off electorate further.


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## Judgemental (19 September 2014)

MerrySherryRider said:



			On the contrary, Cameron, Clegg and Milliband are very vulnerable in the aftermath of the referendum. As the general public has consistently and overwhelmingly been opposed to the ban being lifted, I doubt they'll risk alienating an already pee'd off electorate further.
		
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In normal circumstances I would agree.

However Messrs Cameron, Clegg and Milliband formed a remarkable and unique political cartel that issued a huge bribe worth billions to the Scottish people to remain the Union.

How do they propose to pay for that bribe.

Land Taxes.


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## Countryman (20 September 2014)

It certainly should be possible, once this is sorted out. There are 573 English & Welsh MP's in the Commons, so, if only these could vote on repealing the Hunting Act  - which only applies in England and Wales, a majority of 287 MP's would be needed for repeal. Of these E&W seats, the Conservatives hold 303 of them, so repeal would (just about) be possible, with a majority of 16 - which allows for the handful of anti hunting Tories.


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## Lizzie66 (22 September 2014)

Countryman said:



			It certainly should be possible, once this is sorted out. There are 573 English & Welsh MP's in the Commons, so, if only these could vote on repealing the Hunting Act  - which only applies in England and Wales, a majority of 287 MP's would be needed for repeal. Of these E&W seats, the Conservatives hold 303 of them, so repeal would (just about) be possible, with a majority of 16 - which allows for the handful of anti hunting Tories.
		
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Don't forget it is a free vote so there won't be party lines. However there are some non-conservative MPs who are opposed to a ban, Kate Hoey springs to mind. So yes you might just get it through. Would the NI be barred from voting as well ?


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## Judgemental (23 September 2014)

Lizzie66 said:



			Don't forget it is a free vote so there won't be party lines. However there are some non-conservative MPs who are opposed to a ban, Kate Hoey springs to mind. So yes you might just get it through. Would the NI be barred from voting as well ?
		
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I thought of the Northern Irish when I originally posted.

This is a very interest part of the whole argument, because the Hunting Act 2004 does not apply to Northern Ireland which of course, is part of the United Kingdom.

In my opinion if the Scottish MP's could  not vote in English affairs, the whole complexion of Parliament would change and the Whips might 'persuade' The Blue Foxes that it would be in their career interests to vote for repeal.

Of course I will incur the indignation of some, by suggesting it should not be a free vote but one with a three line whip.


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## LittleRooketRider (23 September 2014)

Judgemental said:



			He has said recently the issue has remained unchanged since 1929 and too many farmers and landowners are enriching themselves at the expense of the tax payer. I believe our Ed is something of an authority on the Single Farm Payment.

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Sorry...but "enriching themselves" I bl@@dy wish


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## Judgemental (25 September 2014)

LittleRocketRider said:



			Sorry...but "enriching themselves" I bl@@dy wish
		
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Whatever your view, it is as well to realise that a huge part of the population and in particular the labour Party see farmers and landowners as the rich elite of this nation.

Your, picture/avatar of that good looking £10,000.00 sport/ horse or similar gives credence to the notion that folk with horses and therefore land are rich. 

At £11,000.00 per acre what is anybody expected to think.

Coupled to Million pound farm houses and buildings that can be converted. Especially in Dorset.

Then there are the staggering handouts in the form of the Single Farm Payment


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## Alec Swan (25 September 2014)

MerrySherryRider said:



			&#8230;&#8230;.. . As the general public has consistently and overwhelmingly been opposed to the ban being lifted, &#8230;&#8230;.. .
		
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From where did you glean that rather curious statement?  The simple fact is that the General Public couldn't give a stuff. 

Alec.


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## Countryman (25 September 2014)

Judgemental said:



			In my opinion if the Scottish MP's could  not vote in English affairs, the whole complexion of Parliament would change and the Whips might 'persuade' The Blue Foxes that it would be in their career interests to vote for repeal.
		
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The "Blue Foxes" are less than a dozen in number, and I would suspect that one or two of them might well be willing to abstain from the vote. The vast majority of Conservatives would back repeal, as would a handful of Lib Dems and two or three Labour MP's.


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## Judgemental (25 September 2014)

Countryman said:



			The "Blue Foxes" are less than a dozen in number, and I would suspect that one or two of them might well be willing to abstain from the vote. The vast majority of Conservatives would back repeal, as would a handful of Lib Dems and two or three Labour MP's.
		
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My goodness me Countryman, we are singing off the same song sheet for a change and dare I say, twice in a week!


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## Alec Swan (25 September 2014)

^^^^ 

The sad thing,  of course,  is that barely 1% of MPs will vote with any degree of conscience.  They will all view their stance as being of influence and of benefit to their 'standing'.

Looking at a hunting map of the UK,  there is not one inch of land that is not in someone's country.  I wonder if the urban/rural vote can be measured,  or weighed,  and if those rural MPs,  were there enough,  be persuaded to consider their constituents.  Let's face it,  the reality is that the bulk of the UK urban community,  and those who preside over our daily lives couldn't give two hoots about Hunting,  or those who Hunt.

Alec.


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## MerrySherryRider (25 September 2014)

Alec Swan said:



			From where did you glean that rather curious statement?  The simple fact is that the General Public couldn't give a stuff. 

Alec.
		
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The latest figures last Boxing Day ;http://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/3315/Hunting-Poll-2013.aspx.


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## Alec Swan (25 September 2014)

Polls are as reliable as art,  music and theatre critics.  Polls are paid for by those with a vested interest and by inference,  are biased to the point of being both unreliable and wildly inaccurate.  Consider two questions;  

'Do you think it right that wild animals have domestic dogs set upon them and to kill them,  whilst the landed gentry and the wealthy stand by,  jeering and cheering'?

Then consider what the reply might be to the next question;

'Do you consider that a time served and honoured system which has formed and developed over hundreds of years whereby a skilled and considerate and principled system has developed whereby the hunted animal is seen as a vital and intrinsic part of a sport,  and one by which the well being of the species actually benefits from the elderly and the weak reaching a certain and humane end,  and would you consider that those who have a passion for the hunted animal,  and it's genetic improvement and continuance,  are the barbarians which those with no understanding would portray'?

Polls are paid for and the one who pays the piper is the one who decides upon the tune.  I'll say again that the bulk of the British Public couldn't give a stuff about hunting,  or those who hunt.

Alec.


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## oakash (27 September 2014)

'Girls or horses but not both'..Alec, both for me, please..and can I take your share?

As has been mentioned, campaigning has begun already, but I for one am against tactical voting.Vote for what you believe in.I happen to believe our independence from Europe is our first priority,let's get a UKIP government and we will get the right people into it as the rats leave the sinking ship, so to speak.


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## Alec Swan (27 September 2014)

oakash said:



			'Girls or horses but not both'..Alec, both for me, please..and can I take your share?

As has been mentioned, campaigning has begun already, but I for one am against tactical voting.Vote for what you believe in.I happen to believe our independence from Europe is our first priority,let's get a UKIP government and we will get the right people into it as the rats leave the sinking ship, so to speak.
		
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Today's news advises us that a Conservative MP (with the curious and possibly prophetic surname of Reckless) has defected to UKIP.  Nige assures us that there are others showing an interest.  You may well get your wish!  I suspect that Cameron in his arrogance,  just as he did with the Scottish Referendum,  will rely upon the fact that the status quo will hold,  until the last minute,  when as last week,  he'll then panic and make promises which he has no intention of keeping.

Considering our places in Heaven,  the operative word is 'OR'.  When I'm suitably ensconced,  then there will be Girls OR Horses,  so you'll just have to find your own supplies.  Sorry!

Alec.


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## Judgemental (27 September 2014)

Alec Swan said:



			Today's news advises us that a Conservative MP (with the curious and possibly prophetic surname of Reckless) has defected to UKIP.  Nige assures us that there are others showing an interest.  You may well get your wish!  I suspect that Cameron in his arrogance,  just as he did with the Scottish Referendum,  will rely upon the fact that the status quo will hold,  until the last minute,  when as last week,  he'll then panic and make promises which he has no intention of keeping.

Considering our places in Heaven,  the operative word is 'OR'.  When I'm suitably ensconced,  then there will be Girls OR Horses,  so you'll just have to find your own supplies.  Sorry!

Alec.
		
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We walked a hound called Reckless but it proved to be very reliable.

Will Owen Patterson jump ship? If ever a man was treated badly by his political masters, bearing in mind the excellent job he did concerning the Somerset Levels and flooding. Owen is a prime example.

Trouble is, all these Old Etonians that Cameron surrounds himself, all think in the same way and are unable to think out of the 'same box'.


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## Countryman (28 September 2014)

I would point out that the MP, Reckless, who defected today to UKIP, is one of the "Blue Foxes", and not only has he voted against the Badger cull, but he is one of the handful of Tories who have vowed to vote AGAINST repeal of the Hunting Act.


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## LittleRooketRider (28 September 2014)

Judgemental said:



			Whatever your view, it is as well to realise that a huge part of the population and in particular the labour Party see farmers and landowners as the rich elite of this nation.

Your, picture/avatar of that good looking £10,000.00 sport/ horse or similar gives credence to the notion that folk with horses and therefore land are rich. 

At £11,000.00 per acre what is anybody expected to think.

Coupled to Million pound farm houses and buildings that can be converted. Especially in Dorset.

Then there are the staggering handouts in the form of the Single Farm Payment
		
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That is in fact an ex-racer we got on the cheap..and actually hda to have put down due to kissing spines is irrelevant. We are certainly not landed gentry but a family business which my granparents and dad have spent the last 40 years working hard to gradually build up, we certainly couldn't afford to buy the land in bulk or even an acre as and when we pleases and we certianly don't have a million pound farm houses or barns that could be converted. We never get a sniff of "staggering handouts in the form of single farm payment".

i actually find your assumptions offensive and your username very fitting... rich elite my @rse


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## Alec Swan (28 September 2014)

LittleRocketRider said:



			That is in fact an ex-racer we got on the cheap..and actually hda to have put down due to kissing spines is irrelevant. We are certainly not landed gentry but a family business which my granparents and dad have spent the last 40 years working hard to gradually build up, we certainly couldn't afford to buy the land in bulk or even an acre as and when we pleases and we certianly don't have a million pound farm houses or barns that could be converted. We never get a sniff of "staggering handouts in the form of single farm payment".

i actually find your assumptions offensive and your username very fitting... rich elite my @rse
		
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I'm sorry J_m,  but the quote above is a responsible response,  I strongly suspect that it's from a grass-roots perspective,  and it is indeed, the reality for those who are the realists,  amongst us.

Alec.


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## Judgemental (28 September 2014)

Alec Swan said:



			I'm sorry J_m,  but the quote above is a responsible response,  I strongly suspect that it's from a grass-roots perspective,  and it is indeed, the reality for those who are the realists,  amongst us.

Alec.
		
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Alec why is it, the merest whiff of a suggestion that folk with horses, land (tenanted or otherwise) are wealthy, immediately generates pleas of impoverished begging bowl subsistence farming, scratching a living in 'potato patch'.


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## Alec Swan (28 September 2014)

Judgemental said:



			Alec why is it, the merest whiff of a suggestion that folk with horses, land (tenanted or otherwise) are wealthy, immediately generates pleas of impoverished begging bowl subsistence farming, scratching a living in 'potato patch'.
		
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There's no fit answer to such a daft question.  Further,  such daft questions are not deserving of a sensible reply.

Alec.


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## LittleRooketRider (28 September 2014)

Judgemental said:



			Alec why is it, the merest whiff of a suggestion that folk with horses, land (tenanted or otherwise) are wealthy, immediately generates pleas of impoverished begging bowl subsistence farming, scratching a living in 'potato patch'.
		
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I never said we were "impoverished" just not as you would assume rolling in it.


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## Judgemental (12 October 2014)

Where are we going with Mr Farage and UKIP? Will he or won't he sustain the momentum? 

He bravely states he will do a deal with the Cons if he has a enough MPs. 

If UKIP are successful the whole political scene is thrown into a huge melting pot.


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## Alec Swan (13 October 2014)

The problem with UKIP,  or so it seems to me,  is that with no track record we don't really have a yard stick by which to judge them.  I suppose that we'd be safer if we were to assume that as they come under the generic heading of 'Politicians',  then they will take the path of popularism and they won't have any real interest in those who they represent and who pay for and support their very existence,  but will be self representing.  

I predict that within your 'huge melting pot',  we will before too long see the bobbing heads of our appointed,  and as they surface.  Repeal?  Not a hope in hell.

Alec.


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## Judgemental (15 October 2014)

It seems that a variety of folk hold the view Ed Milliband is going to get the sack and Gordon Brown is going to be parachuted into the leadership of the Labour Party.

That is an interesting possibility.

If that happens Cameron will have to be replaced because he is no match for Brown.

Where does that leave UKIP - on the back foot because Brown will deal with Farage in very short order.

Whatever one's politics, Gordon Brown is very clever, highly experienced and a great orator. Give him his due, it was he who was largely responsible for persuading the Scots to vote NO.


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## Alec Swan (15 October 2014)

Judgemental said:



			&#8230;&#8230;..

Where does that leave UKIP - on the back foot because Brown will deal with Farage in very short order.

&#8230;&#8230;.. .
		
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You're confusing the two words,  'Intellect' and 'Street'.  Intellect will never win any argument in a public debate which is held in a public place and which involves the Public.  The Public,  however,  have memories which are long enough,  and Farage will wipe the floor with Brown,  from the perspective of 'The Public'.  You see if I'm not right.

Brown and Blair were both loathed,  and with justification.  "Listen to me",  will no longer wash,  from either of them.  I have grave misgivings about Farage,  but when compared with two of the most evil of British PMs,  the man is lengths in front.

Alec.


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## Countryman (15 October 2014)

On the subject of repeal I personally think we are quite lucky to have Cameron as leader, as he is a lot more sympathetic than your average Tory minister.

Interestingly, William Hague said yesterday that government plans for English Votes for English Laws will begin being set out by the end of November, and that the government will go it alone if Labour does not agree with them and continues to veto the suggestions simply because it would damage their political power.


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## Judgemental (15 October 2014)

Countryman said:



			On the subject of repeal I personally think we are quite lucky to have Cameron as leader, as he is a lot more sympathetic than your average Tory minister.

Interestingly, William Hague said yesterday that government plans for English Votes for English Laws will begin being set out by the end of November, and that the government will go it alone if Labour does not agree with them and continues to veto the suggestions simply because it would damage their political power.
		
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Clearly Gordon Brown is the best person to handle the mechanics and to act in the best interests of all parties.

He will of course act in the long term best interest of Scotland and the Scottish Labour Party.

I would give very short odds that he would go along with English Votes for English matters, whereas Mr Milliband probably does not understand the long term, largely because he is a Green Horn and does not understand Scottish politics. 

So far as we are concerned in my opinion, the Brown end result negotiated with the current government, would provide easier legislation for the countryside and country sports.


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## Judgemental (26 October 2014)

So Mr Cameron is refusing to pay the latest £1.7 billion bill from the EU by 1 December 2014. Or is it Euros?

Either way, 1 December 2014 is also the date that the Rural Payments Agency are due to start paying the 2014 Single Farm Payment entitlements, which comes from exactly the same department in the EU that is asking for the £1.7 billion.

One or two farmer's bankers are going to be a little concerned..........to say the least.

In the circumstances one wonders if the SFP will continue into 2015 as the 1 December 2014 is the end of the current programme.

The Rochester By-Election is on 20 November 2014 ............interesting


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## LittleRooketRider (26 October 2014)

Judgemental said:



			Either way, 1 December 2014 is also the date that the Rural Payments Agency are due to start paying the 2014 Single Farm Payment entitlements, which comes from exactly the same department in the EU that is asking for the £1.7 billion.

One or two farmer's bankers are going to be a little concerned..........to say the least.
		
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Especially as certain prices eg. for milk have drastically dropped again.

I won't pretend to understand the politics etc but am I right in reading your post as to be saying that Brown is perhaps more synpathetic (for want of a better word) to those wishing to revoke the ban? I do get very confused but fnd it interesting all the same

Talking of scottish politics a friend of mine told me something i thought was interesting....

Cameron himself has scottish roots yet was basically excluded from the forefront of the better together campaign...I think this speaks volumes about the general opinion of him amongst politicians


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## Alec Swan (26 October 2014)

Judgemental said:



			So Mr Cameron is refusing to pay the latest £1.7 billion bill from the EU by 1 December 2014. Or is it Euros?

Either way, 1 December 2014 is also the date that the Rural Payments Agency are due to start paying the 2014 Single Farm Payment entitlements, which comes from exactly the same department in the EU that is asking for the £1.7 billion.

One or two farmer's bankers are going to be a little concerned..........to say the least.

In the circumstances one wonders if the SFP will continue into 2015 as the 1 December 2014 is the end of the current programme.

The Rochester By-Election is on 20 November 2014 ............interesting
		
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J_M,  as fond of you as I am,  and as I'm equally as considerate of your thoughts and suggestions,  YET AGAIN,  you are talking Bullocks! 

Alec.


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## Judgemental (26 October 2014)

Alec Swan said:



			J_M,  as fond of you as I am,  and as I'm equally as considerate of your thoughts and suggestions,  YET AGAIN,  you are talking Bullocks! 

Alec.
		
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Well those too, price is not good or really sustaining production costs.

Lets look at the current scenario. All this money being peddled by the EU. It's a gift to UKIP.

On the one hand there is the publicity concerning the bill for £1.7 billion, on the other the credit for the Single Farm Payment will be due at the same time and whilst I do not know the exact figure it is well in excess of £1.7 billion of hand outs to farmers and landowners.

Perhaps Alec you know the total figure for 2014?

All in all it's a very significant factor in any election and I suspect the EU are playing games with our membership of the EU, on the premise we will eventually leave but they don't like Mr Cameron.

In a  nut shell, they are saying "we know you want to leave but don't forget the SFP, oh and you don't want to pay the latest bill. If we don't pay the SFP how is that going to effect Mr Cameron's core vote and landowning/farming vote"

Do you follow?


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## Judgemental (27 October 2014)

Alec Swan said:



			J_M,  as fond of you as I am,  and as I'm equally as considerate of your thoughts and suggestions,  YET AGAIN,  you are talking Bullocks! 

Alec.
		
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Alec I watched the PM's statement in the H of C and then I watched the statement by the EU Finance Minister - Single Farm Payment - Rebate was mentioned in the context of Agricultural entitlement.

1 December was well trailed if the EU say they are going to withhold the SFP, what are you for example, going to say to your MP or indeed to PM?


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## AengusOg (28 October 2014)

LittleRocketRider said:



			am I right in reading your post as to be saying that Brown is perhaps more synpathetic (for want of a better word) to those wishing to revoke the ban?
		
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I doubt it. Around 35 years ago, in Gordon Brown's early days as an elected MP, he was one of 20 odd politicians who signed their names to a list who were committed to ban hunting. A friend and I went to a public meeting and challenged him on it, and we were lucky to get out of the hall without being beaten up by a bunch of labour-voting meat heads who took exception to our attack on their leader.

Mind you, politicians change their minds according to what they think voters want to hear, so who knows?


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## LittleRooketRider (28 October 2014)

AengusOg said:



			I doubt it. Around 35 years ago, in Gordon Brown's early days as an elected MP, he was one of 20 odd politicians who signed their names to a list who were committed to ban hunting. A friend and I went to a public meeting and challenged him on it, and we were lucky to get out of the hall without being beaten up by a bunch of labour-voting meat heads who took exception to our attack on their leader.


Mind you, politicians change their minds according to what they think voters want to hear, so who knows?
		
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thanks...some of what J and AS say is well quite a bit above my head but I still like to be able to further my understanding of..well. life and all its aspects...even pointless/pretentious politicians/politics


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## Countryman (29 October 2014)

LittleRocketRider said:



			I won't pretend to understand the politics etc but am I right in reading your post as to be saying that Brown is perhaps more synpathetic (for want of a better word) to those wishing to revoke the ban? I do get very confused but fnd it interesting all the same
		
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I'm fairly sure JM didn't mean that. Brown voted for the hunting ban and in the 2010 election criticised the tories for wanting repeal, saying " I also want to put on record my total commitment, that under a Labour government this ban on cruelty will be maintained. Fox hunting should stay in the history books where it belongs."


David Cameron on the other hand has, from the outset, promised a vote on repeal when there is a Conservative majority-which hasn't happened yet. Coming from a hunting family and with a rural constituency he is actually one of the more especially pro-hunt Conservatives.


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## Alec Swan (1 November 2014)

AengusOg said:



			&#8230;&#8230;.. , in Gordon Brown's early days as an elected MP, he was one of 20 odd politicians who signed their names to a list who were committed to ban hunting. &#8230;&#8230;..
		
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This does rather raise the question of ethics,  and so poses another question;  Should politicians be permitted to use their position as a platform for their own agendas,  or should their focus be on representing those who,  in theory,  they represent. 

I suppose that by argument we could say that without Wilberforce and his likes,  we'd still have slavery,  but theirs a world of difference between judging the conduct of our fellow man from a standpoint of whether the campaigner or the populous are to benefit.  It's all to do with the perceived gravity of the subject;  The driver doing 35mph in a 30mph limit,  isn't committing quite the offence of the man doing 90mph in the same area,  for instance.

I remain convinced that those who are opposed to Hunting,  in the main,  are opposed to the Hunter rather than their sport. 

Alec.


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## LittleRooketRider (1 November 2014)

Alec Swan said:



			This does rather raise the question of ethics,  and so poses another question;  Should politicians be permitted to use their position as a platform for their own agendas,  or should their focus be on representing those who,  in theory,  they represent. 

I suppose that by argument we could say that without Wilberforce and his likes,  we'd still have slavery,  but theirs a world of difference between judging the conduct of our fellow man from a standpoint of whether the campaigner or the populous are to benefit.  It's all to do with the perceived gravity of the subject;  The driver doing 35mph in a 30mph limit,  isn't committing quite the offence of the man doing 90mph in the same area,  for instance.

I remain convinced that those who are opposed to Hunting,  in the main,  are opposed to the Hunter rather than their sport. 

Alec.
		
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Yes ..you only have to listen to their "accurate" commentary which accompanies their endless you tube clips, its a class battle.


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