# Are you under insured?  BE WARNED!



## Alec Swan (29 June 2010)

As the title.  We are livestock fencing contractors and recently had a break in where the bulk of our tools and implements were stolen.

To illustrate my dilemma,  we will say that the stolen goods were valued at £2000.  The limit of my insurance was,  again for the sake of illustration,  £1000.

The insurance company now tell me that if I was 50% uninsured,  then they will only pay out 50% of their responsibility,  which amounts to £500.  I've offered these amounts as an example and to make my point easier to understand.  The amounts concerned were actually considerably more.  

Consider a fire in your house.  I'm told that to replace all the "Contents" in the average home would cost £40k.  Let us assume that over the years the householder has replaced,  improved and increased the contents. If that householder then put in a claim for the full amount but were only insured for £20k,  then the maximum payout would be £10k.  

Being over insured,  apparently carries similar penalties.  It wont be on your policy,  but in the book which your insurers insist you were supplied with,  and which you've probably never seen.  

I see little point in naming my insurers,  even if the are of No F*****g Use.  Be warned.

Alec.


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## BigRed (29 June 2010)

Well I insure with NFU and I can only tell you they have been brilliant, absolutely brilliant. 

My house is insured with DirectLine and they are also brilliant, never any aggro at ALL when it comes to paying out for 3 break-ins.  They even offered to pay when my saddle was stolen and South Essex would NOT pay because I did not have a receipt for every single item of stolen tack.  They gave me the money inside of a week and went after South Essex for some of the money because I was "double insured".


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## burtie (29 June 2010)

Umm, It's been a while since I worked in general insurance but that is not how it worked in my day. If you lost all your contents worth £40k but were only insured for £20k you would  get the full £20k, the 50% rule applies if you only lost half your contents(for example) valued at £20k you would not get £20k but only £10k.

I can't see how they can legally get out of the full obligation if all contents are lost. 

I would check back with your insurers again to make sure you have not mis-understood!


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## Maesfen (29 June 2010)

a1b2c3 said:



			As the title.  We are livestock fencing contractors and recently had a break in where the bulk of our tools and implements were stolen.


I see little point in naming my insurers,  even if the are of No F*****g Use.  Be warned.

Alec.
		
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Sorry to hear that Alec, we've been in the same boat (same business too!)  They wiped out all our power tools, chainsaws, hedgecutters, strimmers, generator, you name it, they took it from a very locked and supposedly secure old dairy which is right by our back door.  Some of the machinery, D had had since he had started so not in the full flush of youth but our insurers, Norwich Union, were fantastic and insisted on replacing all with new; they were very apologetic that they could only supply Stihl products instead of in some cases, like for like so D ended up with a whole new and much better machinery set up which he would never have been able to afford himself - not that I would ever recommend having a burglary, it was very stressful and it took over 2 years to actually relax again which is very hard in your own home.  Six weeks later, they came back but we had upped the security a bit so they targeted where the quad was kept, took that and an old strimmer plus the IW trailer which was ready loaded with posts, rails and wire for the next day.  They unloaded that, put all the rails very tidily at the side, loaded the quad onto the trailer and were gone.  We, nor the dogs never heard a thing and both robberies were done on wild, rough windy nights so we're always more aware on those types of nights now.  
Quad was insured with NFU, trailer was on the car policy with the Co-Op; again, both were very good and paid out within the month with no hassle.  All three claims were the very first we have had except for the Fiesta going on fire years ago so whether that made a difference, I don't know.   
The police were totally useless, didn't want to know after they gave us a crime number but when we complained, someone came out and spent most of the time talking motorbikes to our son!  A few months later, they asked us to go to the station to identify tools they had recovered but none were ours.  Since the robberies, our outside buildings are like Fort Knox and are alarmed but nothing is safe if they set their mind on wanting something.  Anyone having a new IWT around here are pretty neurotic because they have a habit of disappearing within about 6 weeks, somebody knows about them.

Hope it doesn't take you too long to get back on track and do be aware, they will be back for your replacements if they can, at least, that's what always happens around here.


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## applecart14 (29 June 2010)

I realised my tack that was stolen a few years ago was under insured.  I'd only insured for the saddle and not taken into account the stirups, stirrup leathers, girth and expensive gel pad.  Also the cost of the bridle but not the bit. Ended up paying about another £140 to buy the items although I got the money for the actual saddle back from the insurance.  Morale of the story add an extra £50 or £60 to the value of the saddle when insuring.

I also bought my present horse for under £5K but realised when he was ten that he was under insured by about another £2K so got him revetted which cost me £185 and had his insurance value increased by £2k which cost me an additional £81 a year but for the £260 its cost me it would have been worth it for that extra cover if something had happened to him.


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## diamonddogs (29 June 2010)

Re the six weeks thing, when I was burgled a few years ago the police warned me that they'll sometimes come back after six weeks or so, because they know that's the average time insurance companies take to pay out and the victim to replace the stolen items.

Not very reassuring from a not-feeling-safe-in-your-own-home viewpoint, but worth knowing all the same.


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## Alec Swan (30 June 2010)

burtie,

I 'phoned my insurers yesterday,  and spoke with one of the underwriters.  He assured me that "The Average" as a condition,  was listed under the section "Under Insurance Conditions",  and that they would indeed only pay out a percentage of the maximum of the claim limit,  as I hadn't insured to the correct value,  even though the total loss was considerably more than the claim limit itself.  I was,  however,  wrong to say that over insurance carried similar penalties.  The devil,  I suppose,  is in the detail,  or in this case the small print.  I don't suppose that my insurers are any better or worse than any others.  

In conversation with a broker,  who's wife has links to this forum,  he told me of a country house,  which was a listed building and it burnt to the ground.  The rebuild has been quoted at £1mil.  The unfortunate owner only had insurance cover to the value of £300k,  and the responsibility of the insurers?  They will pay one third of the maximum,  £100k,  because the insured had under valued his property.  The broker also said to me,  "We get this on a near daily basis".  

Back to the thread title,  be warned,  or at the very least check with your insurers.

Maesfen,  thanks for your sympathy!  Fencing,  as we both know,  isn't a system for making money,  just a way of earning a living.  Over the years we've had 4 IWTs stolen.  I went to the local travellers site and retrieved one for myself,  the Police refusing to attend,  on the grounds that they would be putting themselves at risk!  

When Tony Martin hit the headlines,  he received a great deal of National support.  I've yet to speak with one Police officer who has any sympathy for him,  and this is despite the fact that the wretched man had 'phoned for support on at least 12 previous occasions.  Without support from the authorities,  is it any wonder that the law abiding take the law into their own hands,  and dispense justice?  

The Police,  so I am assured,  have been clearly instructed,  that if the apprehended criminal is unlikely to attend a court,  because they are of no fixed abode,  then they are to be released without charge.  Those who exist on rural crime act with complete impunity, and are very well aware that prosecution is highly unlikely.

Alec.


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## fatpiggy (30 June 2010)

While I totally sympathise with the OP and have been a victim of theft myself, surely it doesn't take a genius to work out that something will very likely cost more to buy next year than it did last year?  I have musical instruments which are revalued regularly and when I renew my insurance, I up the cover appropriately. Yes, the premium goes up a bit but at least I'm covered properly.  It doesn't take much time or effort to check the replacement costs of things.


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## Darkly_Dreaming_Dex (30 June 2010)

a1b2c3 said:



			As the title.  We are livestock fencing contractors and recently had a break in where the bulk of our tools and implements were stolen.

To illustrate my dilemma,  we will say that the stolen goods were valued at £2000.  The limit of my insurance was,  again for the sake of illustration,  £1000.

The insurance company now tell me that if I was 50% uninsured,  then they will only pay out 50% of their responsibility,  which amounts to £500.  I've offered these amounts as an example and to make my point easier to understand.  The amounts concerned were actually considerably more.  

Consider a fire in your house.  I'm told that to replace all the "Contents" in the average home would cost £40k.  Let us assume that over the years the householder has replaced,  improved and increased the contents. If that householder then put in a claim for the full amount but were only insured for £20k,  then the maximum payout would be £10k.  

Being over insured,  apparently carries similar penalties.  It wont be on your policy,  but in the book which your insurers insist you were supplied with,  and which you've probably never seen.  

I see little point in naming my insurers,  even if the are of No F*****g Use.  Be warned.

Alec.
		
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An interesting topic but in many respects , hard to equate to the horse market. eg My claim for Dex's recent liver problem included the section for horse insurance value- his market value is £2k more than i paid but i cant up his value beyond what i paid so does this mean i will only get 50% my vets fees paid  my now 19yr old show cob competed at HOYS yet was still only insured for the £1k i paid for him as a foal- even the HOYS qualification wasnt enough to up his value with the insurers  I suspect that only the owners of recently purchased proven competition horses have the *ability* to insure their horses for their *true* open market value..


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## fatpiggy (30 June 2010)

Hi Darkly - you almost certainly could have revalued your horse in earlier years (I know people who have done so) but as he is now a veteran I would imagine it would be impossible. I am surprised TBH that you can still cover him for his purchase price - my old girl cost £1200 16 years ago, and as soon as she hit the magic 16th birthday, her insured value fell to £750 and now she is only worth £300.  I really only maintain her insurance for the public liability.


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## Rollin (30 June 2010)

a1b2c3 said:



			As the title.  We are livestock fencing contractors and recently had a break in where the bulk of our tools and implements were stolen.

To illustrate my dilemma,  we will say that the stolen goods were valued at £2000.  The limit of my insurance was,  again for the sake of illustration,  £1000.

The insurance company now tell me that if I was 50% uninsured,  then they will only pay out 50% of their responsibility,  which amounts to £500.  I've offered these amounts as an example and to make my point easier to understand.  The amounts concerned were actually considerably more.  

Consider a fire in your house.  I'm told that to replace all the "Contents" in the average home would cost £40k.  Let us assume that over the years the householder has replaced,  improved and increased the contents. If that householder then put in a claim for the full amount but were only insured for £20k,  then the maximum payout would be £10k.  

Being over insured,  apparently carries similar penalties.  It wont be on your policy,  but in the book which your insurers insist you were supplied with,  and which you've probably never seen.  

I see little point in naming my insurers,  even if the are of No F*****g Use.  Be warned.

Alec.
		
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In France we are insured with AXA.  We were lucky in that the agent, spoke some English, loves Shagya Arabs, which we breed and was very helpful.

We have a number of field shelters and barns.  He personally double measured everything.  He told us if we did not include a building and had a fire as 'under insured' we would not be compensated.  

You really need to read the small print!!  No consolation I know.  The cynic in me says insurance is all about 'take the money' and 'don't pay'.


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## Cliqmo (30 June 2010)

What an uncanny coincidence that you have started this thread OP- I was only discussing this very topic with my OH yesterday!! 

Without wishing to hijack I wonder if I could explain my current situation to see if anyone might know the answer?

I bought my poor, scruffy, unbacked VERY  ugly duckling 3yr old and insured him for the purchase price of £1600. Now he has developed into something of a useful and attractive ridden swan   How do I go about upping his value with the insurance company?  Without any certificates, or _proof_ that he is now backed, working and worth more money, will they just take my word for it? 

Thanks for the opportunity to ask the question OP


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## Rollin (30 June 2010)

Cligmo - speak to Fiona at Carriage Horse Insurance.  I have insured with them for years and she assures me you can 'up' the value.

I only insure foals for cost of breeding which is not the same as sale value.


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## Darkly_Dreaming_Dex (30 June 2010)

fatpiggy said:



			Hi Darkly - you almost certainly could have revalued your horse in earlier years (I know people who have done so) but as he is now a veteran I would imagine it would be impossible. I am surprised TBH that you can still cover him for his purchase price - my old girl cost £1200 16 years ago, and as soon as she hit the magic 16th birthday, her insured value fell to £750 and now she is only worth £300.  I really only maintain her insurance for the public liability.
		
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sorry, you misunderstood my post. When my now veteran cob qualified as a 13yr old for HOYS,i had a ring around and the NFU and AIMS and SEIB and Petplan all said that they couildnt insure his increased value, only what i paid. FWIW he is only insured via my WHW public liability cover. I have an ISA monthly saver that already has enough for unexpected vets fees eg a colic operation if required.

My query was about my 11 yr old cob thats also underinsured in so far as he is insured for his purchase price not his current market value. 

*If an insurance company will not allow you to increase a horses value from its initial purchase, how can they claim you are underinsured*


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## reindeerlover (1 July 2010)

Cliqmo said:



			What an uncanny coincidence that you have started this thread OP- I was only discussing this very topic with my OH yesterday!! 

Without wishing to hijack I wonder if I could explain my current situation to see if anyone might know the answer?

I bought my poor, scruffy, unbacked VERY  ugly duckling 3yr old and insured him for the purchase price of £1600. Now he has developed into something of a useful and attractive ridden swan   How do I go about upping his value with the insurance company?  Without any certificates, or _proof_ that he is now backed, working and worth more money, will they just take my word for it? 

Thanks for the opportunity to ask the question OP 

Click to expand...

You CAN increase the level of your sum insured, horse insurance companies are well aware that horses can increase in value. In the case of being backed and ridden then that is usually taken at face value, although if you have had it done professionally you might want to enclose receipts etc. If your horse has won at HOYS/ badminton/ Hickstead then it is worth more and you should be able to provide proof of this. In addition, winning "best tail" or "horse most likely to bite judge" will probably not get you anywhere. 

It is also worth noting that you can usually increase value every 6months or so and if you require a vetting for increasing it by more than £1000 you might want to try to increase it incrementally- ie. £1000 as it has been backed, another £1000 because it has won in the showring/earned afflicted points since the last upgrade. Of course you won't be able to just keep doing this!


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## Cliqmo (1 July 2010)

Ah useful info thanks Farrierlover! I have emailed the insurance company my query but have yet to hear back from them... out of interest do you know what the tariff hikes are likely to be??


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## reindeerlover (1 July 2010)

Cliqmo said:



			Ah useful info thanks Farrierlover! I have emailed the insurance company my query but have yet to hear back from them... out of interest do you know what the tariff hikes are likely to be??
		
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Fraid not, depends on the company. However, you could maybe do an internet quote with the new value? Unless this is a company who doesn't do those..


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## PippiPony (1 July 2010)

Sorry to hear of your misfortune.

My friend had this when he has a major fire in his kitchen.  He was under insured so his insurers would only pay out on 50% of the insure value.

i think this is common practise.

it certainly made me go through our home contents that had been at 30k for quite some time & raise it up quite substantially.  Luckily i also changed insurers at the same time so didn't end up paying more in premiums, even though i had more contents cover


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## PStarfish (2 July 2010)

It is common practice particularly in home insurance for the 'average' clause to apply. Unless your policy is an 'agreed value' then this is the norm (agreed value tends to belong to some of the more 'High Net Worth' providers such as Hiscox 606, Chubb, AIG. Of course it is also down to the insurers to decide. Normally they will also have a bracket of say 20% underinsured before average will apply - though this is not always the case.
Policies are rated on a 'full value' basis and premiums reflect this, not people choosing to insure on a 'first loss' (partial claim) basis.
Your building sum insured should be index-linked by your insurers yearly but if any obvious improvements are carried out then you will need to increase the sum insured yourself to reflect this.
Sorry, have you guessed I work in insurance


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## odd1 (4 July 2010)

i tried a few years back to up the insurance value of my horse (pet plan at the time) i had bred him so until he was backed etc i just had him coverd for £750 he won a showing class at county level was being placed if not winning dressage and showing each time out so thought upping it to £2k was justified they wouldnt do it because i had bred him and didnt have a purchas price
i have since moved insurance companies and they were happy to isnsure for the market value.

those of you that insure for 3rd party only you are far cheaper taking out bhs gold membership and getting your insurance cover that way, covers for all horses you own


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