# It's all my fault for keeping my dog on a lead, is it?



## Magnetic Sparrow (1 December 2018)

I had an unusual walk with L, my too-small-to-be-a-greyhound-too-big-to-be-a-whippet sighthound in the woods today. 

I was wishing I could let her off the lead, but her recall is still very much work in progress, when I came across a lady calling for her Westie that had taken off after a deer. I think that answered the question for me about letting L off the lead. About ten minutes later I met a man and a woman with a GSD off the lead. The man called the GSD who ignored him completely and bounded towards my poor hound with evident ill intent. I shouted 'Will you please get your dog under control' to which the man responded 'He is under control'. Yeah, right. There was a brief exchange of words once the GSD man had grabbed his dog, then GSD man told me that it was all my fault that his dog had attacked because I had my dog on a lead and dogs on leads upset his dog and 'I should let my dog be a dog'.

My verbal response at that point could probably be considered a technical breach of the peace as I used some bad language. However, I do need to know from you more experienced dog folk, do dogs on leads upset other dogs? It's not something I've ever come across before.

The happy news is that a few minutes later I found a bewildered looking Westie, caught it, managed to track down the owner I had met earlier and reunited them. Unfortunately I have a really poor sense of direction so by the time I had reunited dog and owner I was disoriented and it took me ages to find my way back to the car park so L got a longer walk that we both expected.


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## DabDab (1 December 2018)

No, of course it's not your fault that he hasn't trained his dog.

There are many things that can be distracting/disturbing/exciting/whatever else for a dog....that's why you have to train them, or put them on a lead.

The guy sounds like a turd....just less useful


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## Pinkvboots (1 December 2018)

No not your fault at all and his basically talking out of his backside


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## Moobli (1 December 2018)

He was absolutely wrong!  His dog was not under control.  Your on lead dog was.


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## Annette4 (1 December 2018)

Not at all your fault, entirely the fault of the owner with the out of control dog. 

I have all the sympathy and patience in the world for those who apologise and try and get their dog under control (Iâ€™d be a hypocrite if I didnâ€™t as Dobby has had his moments and now is not allowed off a long line except at Flyball) but those who think itâ€™s their right to have an out of control dog or who donâ€™t realise the impact of their recklessness I have no time for.


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## Nari (1 December 2018)

Surely if his dog is upset & becomes aggressive at the sight of a dog on the lead then it should be on a lead?


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## Tiddlypom (1 December 2018)

He was in the wrong. 

Once it was apparently entirely our fault that a canal boater's mutt followed our on lead dogs for a mile down a footpath, despite our efforts to shoo it away.


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## CorvusCorax (1 December 2018)

No, those are classic lines that people say when they have no control over their own dogs. See also 'IT'S OK HE'S FRIENDLY!' while dog is charging over with hackles up and a stiff tail.
I keep both my GSDs on lead around other dogs as a courtesy, the vast majority of other dogs do not automatically attack them because they are on lead.
This morning the younger one enjoyed a 'hiya' and a sniff with quite a few others while still on lead.
There is a small minority who have come over and attempted to attack, but that's not my dogs' fault or because they are on leads, it's because the other owners are knobs.


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## PapaverFollis (1 December 2018)

I think my response would have been along the lines of explaining what he was actally letting his dog be... And what he himself was being. There would have been words beginning with C involved I'm sure.

It's his job to make sure his dog is sufficiently trained to not attack another dog because it's on a lead! What rubbish to blame the person with the dog on the lead. I'm sure letting your dog be a dog would be all lovely until he ran in front of a car while chasing something! Glad you found the naughty Westie!

Just keep doing what is in the best interests of your dog. And ignore the idiots as best you can.


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## PapaverFollis (1 December 2018)

I do think you can sometimes get strange reactions when one or both dogs are on leads for an interaction, because they can't get away and body language can get a bit confused. But a dog running up to attack another dog because it's on a lead is not normal/excusable because of the lead. He has an aggressive dog and needs to learn to manage it properly!


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## Nari (1 December 2018)

CorvusCorax said:



			No, those are classic lines that people say when they have no control over their own dogs. See also 'IT'S OK HE'S FRIENDLY!' while dog is charging over with hackles up and a stiff tail.
I keep both my GSDs on lead around other dogs as a courtesy, the vast majority of other dogs do not automatically attack them because they are on lead.
This morning the younger one enjoyed a 'hiya' and a sniff with quite a few others while still on lead.
*There is a small minority who have come over and attempted to attack, but that's not my dogs' fault or because they are on leads, it's because the other owners are knobs*.
		
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The bit in bold sums it up nicely!


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## {97702} (1 December 2018)

As TiddlyPom loves to point out, Millie lurcher is not always at close quarters with me on a walk.  I accept that (sometimes) because I know 100% that there are certain parameters - (1) she never catches any wildlife (2) she cannot get anywhere near livestock (3) she always comes back, just not as quickly as Iâ€™d like her to and (4) if she happens to encounter another dog walker, she never EVER shows any sort of aggression towards another dog.

I donâ€™t think that this makes it â€œOKâ€ for her to try and play with another dog she meets (although inevitably the other dog also wants to play) but it does mean i donâ€™t have to worry about nasty consequences. Without being there I canâ€™t comment on whether the GSD really had ill-intentioned ideas, and it is a fact that a dog on a lead will attract the interest of a dog off the lead (similarly please donâ€™t pick up your small dogs to â€˜protectâ€™ them as it makes them a total target) but the GSD owner was totally out of order to react as he did.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (1 December 2018)

That man needs an education. I had three racing greyhounds try to tear my cavalier King Charles apart after the got away from their handler with no muzzles on! The Border Collie engaged two (she was a brawler if she felt her pack was threatened) and I had to repeatedly boot the greyhound that had my CKC by the back legs in the face in order to get it to let go. It finally did as the owners came rushing round the corner and I went to scoop my dog up as her back leg was badly broken and it went to go for her again. Ended up with a broken jaw as I saw red. Owners tried to get the money for their dogs op from my parents but after the police went to see them about haveing their racing hounds out without muzzles they seemed to see the error of their ways. 

People who donâ€™t know how to handle dogs of any breed and just do as they please donâ€™t deserve dogs. Breach of the peace or not Iâ€™d have done the exact same thing.


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## Magnetic Sparrow (1 December 2018)

Thanks, all. I assumed at the time that the man with the GSD was a total <expletive deleted> but since you get such a variety of opinions on here I thought I'd check my reasoning.


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## DabDab (1 December 2018)

Sorry Lev, I'm going to have to disagree with you - I'm not going to not put my dogs on leads or pick them up so that someone else's uncontrolled mutt might be good enough not to attack us. 

I've had a small dog attacked by two labs. They had already said hello to him and all seemed fine, they were family dogs with no history of aggressive behaviour. If little dog hadn't been by me when he was attacked he would have been dead - I knocked one out to get it off him, and broke a rib of the other. He still lost his leg though. I will never let that happen to a dog in my care again, so I will pick up my dogs I'm afraid.


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## deb_l222 (1 December 2018)

People make up all sorts of crap to cover up their own incompetence especially when it comes to dogs.  Some silly chap once told me his spaniel was having a go at Rufus only because Rufus was on a lead.  Bloomin clever dog to know the difference between a dog on a lead or not. 

People are potty, donâ€™t let the idiots grind you down ðŸ˜ƒ


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## SadKen (1 December 2018)

That's horrendous BB.

OP that man was clearly an absolute prat with no self awareness.

My husband had this with a man on a walk once. Our two GSDs were on leads when his lab and Springer attacked our old lad, no warning or even vocalisation. The man blamed the attack on the fact that our dog was big. He also made no effort to stop his dogs. My husband and our two successfully saw the other dogs off, and my husband 'knocked that dick on his arse', at least that's how he put it. 

Nothing gets me more enraged than out of control dogs with pathetic non-apologists for owners. Except maybe kids kicking the back of your seat on a long haul flight, but that's two sides of the same coin.


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## {97702} (1 December 2018)

DabDab said:



			Sorry Lev, I'm going to have to disagree with you - I'm not going to not put my dogs on leads or pick them up so that someone else's uncontrolled mutt might be good enough not to attack us.

I've had a small dog attacked by two labs. They had already said hello to him and all seemed fine, they were family dogs with no history of aggressive behaviour. If little dog hadn't been by me when he was attacked he would have been dead - I knocked one out to get it off him, and broke a rib of the other. He still lost his leg though. I will never let that happen to a dog in my care again, so I will pick up my dogs I'm afraid.
		
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Ok sorry, Iâ€™ll amend what I said....what I should have said is not â€œdonâ€™t pick them upâ€ but â€œdonâ€™t be surprised when the â€œaggressorâ€
dogs then jump up at you to try and get to the (?smaller) dogâ€  - itâ€™s dog nature unfortunately


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## {97702} (1 December 2018)

Black Beastie said:



			That man needs an education. I had three racing greyhounds try to tear my cavalier King Charles apart after the got away from their handler with no muzzles on! The Border Collie engaged two (she was a brawler if she felt her pack was threatened) and I had to repeatedly boot the greyhound that had my CKC by the back legs in the face in order to get it to let go. It finally did as the owners came rushing round the corner and I went to scoop my dog up as her back leg was badly broken and it went to go for her again. Ended up with a broken jaw as I saw red. Owners tried to get the money for their dogs op from my parents but after the police went to see them about haveing their racing hounds out without muzzles they seemed to see the error of their ways.

People who donâ€™t know how to handle dogs of any breed and just do as they please donâ€™t deserve dogs. Breach of the peace or not Iâ€™d have done the exact same thing.
		
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Personally I would not be boasting about acting like that on a dog forum.... the greyhound was following natural instinct, humans are supposed to be better than that


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## DabDab (1 December 2018)

Levrier said:



			Ok sorry, Iâ€™ll amend what I said....what I should have said is not â€œdonâ€™t pick them upâ€ but â€œdonâ€™t be surprised when the â€œaggressorâ€
dogs then jump up at you to try and get to the (?smaller) dogâ€  - itâ€™s dog nature unfortunately
		
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No that's fine, I completely appreciate that - I'd rather the owner just had it under control. I shouldn't have to have more of an understanding of a dog's nature than the person who is legally responsible for it.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (1 December 2018)

Levrier said:



			Personally I would not be boasting about acting like that on a dog forum.... the greyhound was following natural instinct, humans are supposed to be better than that
		
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Not boasting telling the truth. Iâ€™m an animal person through and through but I donâ€™t know anyone who would stand by and watch they dog being torn apart whilst screaming in pain. If they had been muzzled as per requirement I wouldnâ€™t have had to protect my poor dog. She was traumatised for the rest of her life, screaming in fear of another dog approached, before that she was perfectly happy to meet other dogs. 

I protect my own.


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## FinnishLapphund (1 December 2018)

It is true that leads does sometimes/often distort our dog's body language, and it is the cause of many dog meeting misunderstandings. But usually those problems occurs when the dogs is closer to each other, and by the sound of it, his dog had already reacted on a good distance away from your bitch.

Either way, since the other owner knew that his dog has a problem with even only seing another dog on a lead, when he is off lead, then that is his owner's problem, not yours.


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## {97702} (1 December 2018)

Black Beastie said:



			Not boasting telling the truth. Iâ€™m an animal person through and through but I donâ€™t know anyone who would stand by and watch they dog being torn apart whilst screaming in pain. If they had been muzzled as per requirement I wouldnâ€™t have had to protect my poor dog. She was traumatised for the rest of her life, screaming in fear of another dog approached, before that she was perfectly happy to meet other dogs.

I protect my own.
		
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There is no â€œrequirementâ€ for greyhounds to be muzzled, Iâ€™m not sure where you have got that idea from? I have had sighthounds (whippets, lurchers and greyhounds) for 30 years now, and Iâ€™ve never had a problem like this, it is down to stupid ownership not the dog.

Incidentally I â€œprotect my ownâ€ too, and if anyone broke one of my greyhounds jaws they would be going home with FAR worse injuries - to that individual who was to blame, not to their dog who was merely acting by instinct. For a human to inflict that injury on a dog disgusts me


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## meleeka (1 December 2018)

If his dog is offended by dogs on leads then he ought to keep it on a lead too!

Itâ€™s quite possible for a dog to have fun without being off the lead. My terrier has selective hearing, thereâ€™s nothing I can offer better than that thing in a bush so she stays on a lead. Itâ€™s either a short lead, a lungeline or 50m lead which was under a tenner on eBay. Obviously I can only use that in big open spaces with few people about, but sheâ€™s not missing out and I know sheâ€™s safe. It amazes me how little regard some people have for their dogs safety.


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## Cinnamontoast (1 December 2018)

Yet another rhymes with banker who is a clueless twunt. He was wrong and you were right, OP. 

I got utterly fed up Jake being attacked whilst on lead recovering from a cruciate OP. No matter how much I told the owner, one bloody obese aggressive lab kept going for him. The owner had no control/recall. 

You're entitled to walk your dog on lead in a civilized manner. The GSD owner was an idiot. I got bored of recalling my dogs so other people could grab theirs. Why don't people teach a solid recall? Drives me nuts.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (1 December 2018)

Levrier said:



			There is no â€œrequirementâ€ for greyhounds to be muzzled, Iâ€™m not sure where you have got that idea from? I have had sighthounds (whippets, lurchers and greyhounds) for 30 years now, and Iâ€™ve never had a problem like this, it is down to stupid ownership not the dog.

Incidentally I â€œprotect my ownâ€ too, and if anyone broke one of my greyhounds jaws they would be going home with FAR worse injuries - to that individual who was to blame, not to their dog who was merely acting by instinct. For a human to inflict that injury on a dog disgusts me
		
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Your attitude that I should leave my dog to be torn apart disgusts me so we shall just have to disgust each other shanâ€™t we? You wonâ€™t shame me so go look for a fight elsewhere


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## {97702} (1 December 2018)

Black Beastie said:



			Your attitude that I should leave my dog to be torn apart disgusts me so we shall just have to disgust each other shanâ€™t we? You wonâ€™t shame me so go look for a fight elsewhere 

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Oh Iâ€™m not â€œlooking for a fightâ€ - if I were, Iâ€™d be looking for people of my own level ðŸ˜Š I have never said that you should â€œleave your dog to be torn apartâ€ I have said that the fact you broke a dogs jaw because â€œyou saw redâ€ is unacceptable - if you canâ€™t see that, I fear that is your failing not mine....


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## NinjaPony (1 December 2018)

Drives me nuts when people let their dogs race over to my on lead dog. My small dog was attacked and nearly killed by an off lead dog a couple of years ago. Hundreds of stitches later and emergency surgery, it was a miracle she survived, and even more of a miracle that she has bounced back quite quickly. However, she is now afraid of other dogs approaching her, and quite frankly so am I. I wouldn't wish having to watch another dog savage yours on my worst enemy. So she is on the lead at all times, and I avoid other dogs as much as possible. Known dogs at home or training classes are obviously fine. But people cannot seem to understand that she is on a lead for a reason, and I don't want other dogs racing over to her out of control. They get offended if I pick her up out of harms way, but I don't care-there is no way I am letting her get harmed again if I can avoid it and I don't care if that hurts peoples feelings. My dog is under control, on a lead, and for a damn good reason. Just wish people would respect that and let us be.


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## bonny (1 December 2018)

Some of you seem to inhabit a different world, full of crazy, aggressive dogs who are only intent on doing you or your poor dogs harm ! I walk my dogs off lead, often in busy areas, and never seem to encounter any problems with other dogs. I would say just about every dog I meet is also off lead, every owner is a normal human being, often stopping for a chat or a friendly greeting and all is well.


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## DabDab (1 December 2018)

I don't think so bonny, if you compare the amount of times I've walked dogs around others in comparison to the one time I've had one attacked it's a very very small percentage. But given the repercussions that can come from that very very small percentage of occasions I simply choose to do everything I can to mitigate against it ever occurring again. 

I get to talk to lots of people in the rest of my life so fortunately don't need to use my dog walks for human interaction.


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## {97702} (1 December 2018)

Got to say for once I agree with you Bonny - I never seem to have the massive problems that others encounter, either with my dogs being attacked or attacking others.  Itâ€™s a mystery to me how Iâ€™ve managed to avoid it all my life.


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## FinnishLapphund (2 December 2018)

Although I can understand the desire to lift up your dog, besides that it can trigger things, how does it work in a situation when/if you meet a really big dog?

I have 3 around my knees high bitches, so I can't lift them all up at the same time anyway. But as it happens, the last time a dog approached us unwantedly, was 2, 3 years ago, and it was actually an adult St. Bernard! I'm only 164 cm, his head was around my waist in height, even with all 4 paws still on the ground.

But I did what I always do in such situations (ETA they haven't happened that often), gathered my girls behind me, and kept myself between them, and the unwanted approaching dog (/or dogs). The St. Bernard didn't really want to mess with a human, without only other dogs, so when he eventually realised that I wasn't going to budge, he decided to listen to his owner.


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## Tiddlypom (2 December 2018)

I'm not sure why Lev has decided to have a pop at me on this thread, which was about whether dogs whether on leads provoke aggression in other off lead dogs.

Lev, as an experienced dog owner you know darn well that if you don't have full recall in a public place your dog should be on a lead. Apparently though it's all right because she only buggers off after vermin and wouldn't hurt a fly otherwise. Instead she's rampaging around unseen doing god knows what for 10 mins plus. 

Also, if an uncontrolled dog hurtled up to me looking like it was going to attack us I would probably kick out at it in defence, so it could indeed end up with a broken jaw. Tough.


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## rabatsa (2 December 2018)

It is when you come across the person "walking" 2 large dogs, during ground bird nesting time, on a Forestry commission managed common.  Both dogs home in to attack, not once but 3 times before we could leave the common - ok not a dog but a pony and carriage with a disabled driver on board! - The man could not put them onto leads as he did not have one!  We offered our emergency lead rope from the spares kit but he did not have any collars either!  There was no attempt made to control the dogs or apology either.  He even had the nerve to wave to us as he drove off when we took the next driver out on the roads to avoid him on the common.


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## Sandstone1 (2 December 2018)

The man was a idiot.  It is true however that being on lead does change a dogs behaviour.
Usually the on lead dog can become more aggressive as it may feel defensive because it cant get away.
That doesn't mean its wrong to have your dog on a lead!
Its the most sensible and safe thing to do to keep your dog safe and out of trouble.
i would protect my dogs if in a situation that needed it.  Breaking a jaw does seem excessive but difficult to say if that force  was warranted or not as none of us were there at the time.
I must say that I always thought ex racing greyhounds were supposed to be muzzled when free in public to protect small dogs etc.
I think most of us would do what it takes to protect our dogs uf they were being attacked.


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## NinjaPony (2 December 2018)

Itâ€™s all very well expressing incredulity about dog attacks, but all it takes is one to happen to you to make you extremely wary. I spent a long time socialising my small dog to make sure she wouldnâ€™t be afraid of other dogs, and I used to always allow her to say hello to other dogs if appropriate when out walking. Unfortunately, watching another dog try to rip her to shreds has put a stop to that. I can only hope that the rest of you are lucky enough that it doesnâ€™t happen to you, and that you never feel the need to protect your dog from other dog and can walk with peace of mind.


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## FinnishLapphund (2 December 2018)

I must say that I think it sounds like a bad idea to really kick towards an unwantedly approaching dog. While you kick, you will be standing on only one leg, which makes you more vulnerable for being knocked over, and it sends a visible signal of that your body is not in balance. 

Seems much better to me, to stand with my legs a bit apart, so that I'm steady on the ground, stand as straight as possible, inhale to make my chest a bit broader, think about using an as low as possible voice, and simply deciding that anyone wanting to get to my dogs, have to go through me first. 

It must have been a Winter 15 to 20 years ago by now, when I was out walking Raya (Smooth Collie), and Humla (Norwegian Buhund), and my mum was a bit behind me with Nessie (also a Buhund), when 2 Dogue de Bordeaux ran out from a house we had passed, and went for Nessie from behind. Unfortunately, Nessie slipped on some ice, and was easily knocked over. 
I ran back, and I did use my legs to sort of kick, but I kept my feet close to the ground, and more pushed, shoved with my knees at the most aggressive dog's ribs, and rather quickly got myself between the Dogue de Bordeauxs, and Nessie. 

To be absolutely honest, I seem to be the most sinister on this thread. If the Dogue de Bordeauxs had gotten a hold on Nessie, and didn't back off at my first intervention, I made a plan B up in my head as I ran towards them. Plan B was about how to either try to grab the most aggressive dog's collar, and twist it, or get one of my leashes high up around its neck, so that I could use the collar or leash, to choke it. 
But it turned out that Nessie was wriggling so much, that they hadn't gotten a hold on her. 

Supported by that instead of calling the Dogue de Bordeauxs back to them, their owners had came up to try and grab their dogs to haul them away, their dogs tried again to get to my dogs. But I did the same as I later did with the St. Bernard, gathered mine behind me, and just kept my body between their dogs, and my dogs.


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## {97702} (2 December 2018)

FL your posts really show that you have a true understanding of how dogs behave, and the best techniques for dealing with situations - brilliant ðŸ˜Š


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## MotherOfChickens (2 December 2018)

you don't always have time to analyse the best way to stand when your dog underneath another dog, screaming in fear while the attacking dog tries to take mouthfuls out if his abdomen. so I went in boots first and I've never felt bad about it for a moment. my dog was on his lead, the other dog slipped his halti to attack him a couple of minutes after we had passed on opposite sides of the road. I'm also not about to tick off the owners at that point.
I'd do it again-its not wise but tbh I'm likely to bring on the psycho whatever is attacking me and mine, its saved me in the past against dogs (and aggressive men!).


oh, and those of you who have never had to put up with aggressive dogs or a dog attack-lucky you! I'd not wish it on anyone.


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## {97702} (2 December 2018)

Sandstone1 said:



			i would protect my dogs if in a situation that needed it.  Breaking a jaw does seem excessive but difficult to say if that force  was warranted or not as none of us were there at the time.
I must say that I always thought ex racing greyhounds were supposed to be muzzled when free in public to protect small dogs etc.
I think most of us would do what it takes to protect our dogs uf they were being attacked.
		
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I agree totally, I wouldnâ€™t hesitate to protect my dogs (from other dogs or from humans!), however I wouldnâ€™t lose my temper and behave in such an inappropriate way. Iâ€™ve had greyhounds a long time and have seen all kinds of situations, that sort of injury is never warranted.

Ex racing greyhounds are usually muzzled when being walked by charities etc for insurance reasons, but there is certainly no requirement to always muzzle them, any more than there is a requirement to muzzle whippets, lurchers, Salukis, borzois or any other sighthound you can think of.

Iâ€™ve had greyhounds with a strong prey drive who have always been muzzled, Iâ€™ve had greyhounds (and lurchers) who have never been muzzled with me as there is absolutely no need. As with every other breed, some present a potential danger to other dogs and some donâ€™t


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## Tiddlypom (2 December 2018)

Remember that most dog walkers you meet are just pet owners, and not dog trainers. I put myself firmly in the pet dog owner camp. Maybe I may respond in what you trainers and experts deem to be an inappropriate way if I think that we're under attack, but we shouldn't ever be put in that position, should we, if folk would only keep their own damn dogs under control.


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## Rowreach (2 December 2018)

Tiddlypom said:



			Remember that most dog walkers you meet are just pet owners, and not dog trainers. I put myself firmly in the pet dog owner camp. Maybe I may respond in what you trainers and experts deem to be an inappropriate way if I think that we're under attack, but we shouldn't ever be put in that postion, should we, if folk would only keep their damn dogs under control.
		
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True.  And if folk would only keep their dogs under control I wouldn't have to deal with the frail old lady with osteoporosis, knocked down by two rampaging dogs who were off lead and out of sight of their owner, in a conservation area.  Or the riders whose steady cobs were chased by an Irish Wolfhound puppy who "only wanted to play", causing them to bolt through the woods.  Or the farmer the other night who rang me because his sheep had been run ragged after a walker lost their two Labradors for three hours, having let them off their leads.  On that occasion the dogs could easily have been shot dead - overreaction by the farmer?  Nope.

It comes down to manners and consideration.  If you can't control your dog off lead, don't let it off.

And if your dog(s) are on leads and under control, you have every right to defend yourself and them from aggressive approaches from other dogs.


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## Sprout (2 December 2018)

I am sick to death of dog owners who cant or wont control their dogs, then blame ME when things get out of hand!
Last week I was walking my 3, they were on leads as we were nearing a road, man approached with 5 dogs all loose, charging about barking etc, so I waited until he had seen me, then moved off the track to be well away from his dogs. He made no attempt to call them back, they all came charging over, growling, barking etc.  One of mine is very elderly, one just a puppy, they were terrified. He made no attempt to call them off, apologise  etc ...... for once I didnt let rip as I wanted to try and stay calm and quiet for the puppy ..... not a good experience for her.  Makes me so mad and happens so often!


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## FinnishLapphund (2 December 2018)

MotherOfChickens said:



			you don't always have time to analyse the best way to stand when your dog underneath another dog, screaming in fear while the attacking dog tries to take mouthfuls out if his abdomen. so I went in boots first and I've never felt bad about it for a moment. my dog was on his lead, the other dog slipped his halti to attack him a couple of minutes after we had passed on opposite sides of the road. I'm also not about to tick off the owners at that point.
I'd do it again-its not wise but tbh I'm likely to bring on the psycho whatever is attacking me and mine, its saved me in the past against dogs (and aggressive men!).


oh, and those of you who have never had to put up with aggressive dogs or a dog attack-lucky you! I'd not wish it on anyone.
		
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Tiddlypom said:



			Remember that most dog walkers you meet are just pet owners, and not dog trainers. I put myself firmly in the pet dog owner camp. Maybe I may respond in what you trainers and experts deem to be an inappropriate way if I think that we're under attack, but we shouldn't ever be put in that position, should we, if folk would only keep their own damn dogs under control.
		
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I'm definitely no dog trainer, without only an ordinary pet dog owner like most others. But as I mentioned in my first reply, I'm only 164 cm, so when we talked about how our body language affect dogs during puppy, and follow up puppy, classes, it made sense to me, to try to learn how to best react in a situation when/if another dog goes for your dog. Especially since dogs are not robots, and does not always behave they way they usually do.

I'm also not a robot, sometimes my brain cease to function, and I behave completely headless around dogs. But like with other emergencies, it can help if you have at some point, thought through potential scenarios on beforehand, to prepare yourself for that things can happen.

And lets face it, the only way I'm going to win in a fight against 2 Dogue de Bordeauxs, is by using attitude, and my brains. If I had tried to really kick one of them in the head, or somewhere else, I'm not sure it would even have gotten a bruise. In a muscles fight, they would have won over me every day in the week, and it wouldn't have been long, before Nessie hadn't been able to wriggle fast enough any more.

Since we can only affect our own behaviour, and not others, instead of those saying that this is how I reacted, and in a similar situation, I would do the same again, why not even consider if there is something you might be able to do differently, which could benefit you in a similar situation?


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## skinnydipper (2 December 2018)

The owner of the GSD is an ar$ehole.

A dog can be on its lead for a number of reasons: deaf, blind, fearful, ill, poor recall, reactive. It is common courtesy not to allow an off lead dog to approach, however friendly the owner may deem it to be, but especially if the pratt knew his dog would react.

The GSD owner should also bear in mind that his dog could be badly injured if it approaches the "wrong" dog. As I have already said on the forum, a local dog was recently PTS for attacking and badly injuring another dog. The aggressor was on her lead but not muzzled.

I have had 2 dogs attacked with intent and without provocation. One was lucky to escape with puncture wounds to his neck, he was a Rough Collie saved by his thick mane. The other dog was lucky to escape with her life. She was badly mauled and lost muscle tissue from her back in two places. It was a predatory attack with intent to kill. There were no preliminaries with either attack - just straight in, silently.

I would not hesitate to take whatever steps were necessary to defend my dog if he were attacked.

I want to be clear that I am not talking about bluster, a noisy scuffle or a nipped ear which can be dealt with in a more measured way. I am not referring to a fight but an all out dog attack - an aggressor and a helpless victim.

With all due respect to others who have posted about text book ways of dealing with the aggressor, these attacks happen in seconds.

The vicious dog with intent to kill is not going be deterred by a barrier of human legs or verbal chastisement. Perhaps you could choke a dog off if it was a bite and hold but taking into account that a dog can bite 25 times in 5 seconds, and the attacking dog is not going to stand meekly for you to get your hand through its collar, then I would take a more direct approach.  It would also not be a good idea to try to pull a dog off your dog when it has a mouthful of your dog's flesh as this would result in further injury.


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## Clodagh (2 December 2018)

One reason for dogs on leads getting attacked is they are often attached to an owner giving off panic vibes, and therefore maknig the dog on the lead panic too. My mother could start a fight between two dogs at any time, because she is always sure it is going to happen, so often it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.
Not supporting GSD owner at all, and I never let my dogs approach an on lead dog as I always assume it is aggressive. If I meet another dog off lead I assume it is OK and let mine greet it. It works most of the time!
I am also lucky in that I rarely meet any strange dogs on our walks.


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## Clodagh (2 December 2018)

Black Beastie said:



			Your attitude that I should leave my dog to be torn apart disgusts me so we shall just have to disgust each other shanâ€™t we? You wonâ€™t shame me so go look for a fight elsewhere 

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I too would kick the living Bejesus out of any dog that was intent on killing mine, and have done so. I don't care if it is just being a dog!


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## GreyMane (2 December 2018)

My family and I have been in situations when our well behaved dogs, on lead, have been bitten by bigger and heavier dogs that ran straight at them with no warning.

First time, the owners saw what was happening and made no attempt to help; just disappeared as fast as they could, leaving my relative with her 2 young kids, one of whom had a bitten hand and the other one was screaming in fright, plus her dog with a piece torn out of its flank.

Second time, I saw no owner at all; the dog just ran round a corner and bit the dog I was walking.
My relative's dog is let OFF the lead around other dogs, when away from roads. It is very well behaved, to the extent that the local dog walker used it to help socialise other dogs that were nervous. 
We would rather it can take its own evasive action, it will react faster than a human can and keep itself safe rather than being trapped at the end of a lead.

Made me think of the Buck Brannaman video, towards the end, when he is boxing up the abused and violent palomino colt.  He uses flags to move it and keep it at a safe distance, by waving them quickly.
I think in a tight spot I would try that; do all the "NOT this way mate" body language - which has worked for me, but is a bit scary to do when an unknown dog is coming your way with head down and a death stare!
Then if the body language didn't work, whirl a lead/rope/stick around, fast, between self and dog.

One of my relatives now takes a very stout walking stick with him when dog walking  - maybe he'd whirl it about, though knowing him I suspect it might well make quite firm contact with any aggressive dog. And its owner too.


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## KittenInTheTree (2 December 2018)

I can guarantee that anything charging up out of control and deliberately causing serious, unprovoked injury to any of mine wouldn't have any need for a vet afterwards. Take from that what you will.


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## FinnishLapphund (2 December 2018)

skinnydipper said:



			...

I have had 2 dogs attacked with intent and without provocation. One was lucky to escape with puncture wounds to his neck, he was a Rough Collie saved by his thick mane. The other dog was lucky to escape with her life. She was badly mauled and lost muscle tissue from her back in two places. It was a predatory attack with intent to kill. There were no preliminaries with either attack - just straight in, silently.

I would not hesitate to take whatever steps were necessary to defend my dog if he were attacked.

I want to be clear that I am not talking about bluster, a noisy scuffle or a nipped ear which can be dealt with in a more measured way. I am not referring to a fight but an all out dog attack - an aggressor and a helpless victim.

With all due respect to others who have posted about text book ways of dealing with the aggressor, these attacks happen in seconds.

The vicious dog with intent to kill is not going be deterred by a barrier of human legs or verbal chastisement. Perhaps you could choke a dog off if it was a bite and hold but taking into account that a dog can bite 25 times in 5 seconds, and the attacking dog is not going to stand meekly for you to get your hand through its collar, then I would take a more direct approach.  It would also not be a good idea to try to pull a dog off your dog when it has a mouthful of your dog's flesh as this would result in further injury.
		
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I never thought it would be easy to choke a dog, nor was I sure I would be successful. But considering my disadvantage in size, weight, strength, and numbers, making me trying to use what you call a more direct approach probably pointless if they had already gotten hold of Nessie, and since an experience with Raya had taught me that a dog who is choking on a gnaw bone/ball or similar, and you can't get it out no matter what else you try, then once the dog starts to pass out/passes out, you can open their jaws easier, and wider, than when they're wide awake, so in the heat of the moment, not yet knowing if they had gotten hold of Nessie or not, it seemed like a plan B worth trying, if needed.

By the way, I heard that the more aggressive Dogue de Bordeaux was euthanised awhile later, due to that other aggressive incidents happened.


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## skinnydipper (2 December 2018)

FinnishLapphund said:



			I never thought it would be easy to choke a dog, nor was I sure I would be successful. But considering my disadvantage in size, weight, strength, and numbers, making me trying to use what you call a more direct approach probably pointless if they had already gotten hold of Nessie, and since an experience with Raya had taught me that a dog who is choking on a gnaw bone/ball or similar, and you can't get it out no matter what else you try, then once the dog starts to pass out/passes out, you can open their jaws easier, and wider, than when they're wide awake, so in the heat of the moment, not yet knowing if they had gotten hold of Nessie or not, it seemed like a plan B worth trying, if needed.

By the way, I heard that the more aggressive Dogue de Bordeaux was euthanised awhile later, due to that other aggressive incidents happened.
		
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As I said, you may be able to choke a dog off in a bite and hold situation.  Dog attacks can be fast moving and more frenzied, as in the case of the attack on my lurcher, she sustained multiple bites in seconds. I am 160 cm and slightly built but would do whatever I deemed necessary to protect my dog.

She was a previously happy go lucky, dog friendly dog who was off leash (following the attack she was, understandably, very nervous around other dogs).  She tried to run away and was attacked from behind.  My other dog was attacked when sitting quietly by my side, the 2 Staffies who attacked him did bite and hold but had no collars (I have posted about this previously)


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## planete (2 December 2018)

Deleted as redundant.


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## JFTDWS (2 December 2018)

At the end of the day, if it's not under control - that is, recalls at the first command - it shouldn't be off leash outside your own, secure property.  All it would take is for people to stop thinking they're the exception to rule, and these sorts of incidents wouldn't happen - but people are generally pretty rubbish.



Levrier said:



			Oh Iâ€™m not â€œlooking for a fightâ€ - if I were, Iâ€™d be looking for people of my own level ðŸ˜Š
		
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Well that's uncalled for and unnecessary.


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## {97702} (2 December 2018)

JFTD said:



			Well that's uncalled for and unnecessary.
		
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So is breaking a dog's jaw in a fit of rage, however acceptable people on this thread appear to find it


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## Tiddlypom (2 December 2018)

Levrier said:



			So is breaking a dog's jaw in a fit of rage, however acceptable people on this thread appear to find it
		
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If that is what it takes to save my dog's life, then so be it. 
And if my dog was killed or very seriously injured in an unprovoked attack, then as kitteninthetree says the other dog wouldn't need any vet care afterwards.


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## JFTDWS (2 December 2018)

Levrier said:



			So is breaking a dog's jaw in a fit of rage, however acceptable people on this thread appear to find it
		
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I think that's a matter of opinion, and very much dependent on the circumstances...  I think it's more defensible than allowing a dog to be loose without effective recall though...


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## Clodagh (2 December 2018)

It isn't as though the person who broke the dogs jaw did it with intent, she was trying to get a greyhound that was trying to kill her small dog to let go, so she kicked it. She in doing so she broke it's jaw, tough really and I hope it cost the grey's owners plenty of money.


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## Rowreach (2 December 2018)

Watching your dog being viciously attacked by another is a horrible experience. I saw our family dog being attacked and killed by a GSD when I was a child, and I've never forgotten it.  No way would I do nothing if mine were attacked, and realistically the best and only thing you can use is your feet, unless you have a stick in your hand.

I never blame the dog for its bad behaviour, only the owner, but it's ultimately the dog that will suffer if it's not under control.  And that, I'm afraid, is tough for the dog, but wouldn't stop me doing what was necessary.


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## Cinnamontoast (2 December 2018)

bonny said:



			Some of you seem to inhabit a different world, full of crazy, aggressive dogs who are only intent on doing you or your poor dogs harm ! I walk my dogs off lead, often in busy areas, and never seem to encounter any problems with other dogs. I would say just about every dog I meet is also off lead, every owner is a normal human being, often stopping for a chat or a friendly greeting and all is well.
		
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Yes and that dog is mine. Looks like an angel, is terrified of other dogs after being attacked as a youngster and now feels he has to get in there first. Soppy springer. Not.

I am obsessed with keeping other dogs away from him because I don't want them (or him!) hurt or for the poor owner to be traumatised. He goes on the lead if other dogs approach. Today was fun, in the park, a Samoyed I've never seen appeared, along with bouncy lab and Rottweiler, whose owner knows to steer clear. It was chucking it with rain, I could barely see.

I'll leave the area rather than risk a run in with an owner who won't/can't control their dog. Don't want theirs or mine injured. He put a hole in my trainer's dog who is a mirror image personality wise then they were best friends. 

I picked up Jake and Brig as puppies when 2 Eurasiers threatened them. The owner jeered at me for doing so rather than controlling her dogs. Really charming. I should apparently have let them be attacked so they could sort it out amongst themselves. Bonkers, pups were just out of isolation so tiny.

Werewolf:


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## Sandstone1 (2 December 2018)

JFTD said:



			I think that's a matter of opinion, and very much dependent on the circumstances...  I think it's more defensible than allowing a dog to be loose without effective recall though...
		
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As horrible as it is I think in the real world most of us would do what it takes to protect our dogs.
I know I would.   As much as im a animal lover I wouldn't stand by and see my dog attacked.


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## MotherOfChickens (2 December 2018)

FinnishLapphund said:



			Since we can only affect our own behaviour, and not others, instead of those saying that this is how I reacted, and in a similar situation, I would do the same again, why not even consider if there is something you might be able to do differently, which could benefit you in a similar situation?
		
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there isn't always time FL-if I hadn't gone for that dog when I did the attacking dog would have ripped out his penis-there were teeth marks all around it. He could have very well bled out in the street.

as for the victim blaming going on and people 'never having all these problems' well good for you. I've had one dog attacked in 30 years personally but having been a vet's partner for a decade have seen quite a few dogs in after being attacked and have seen what it did to their owners too.


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## {97702} (2 December 2018)

Clodagh said:



			It isn't as though the person who broke the dogs jaw did it with intent, she was trying to get a greyhound that was trying to kill her small dog to let go, so she kicked it. She in doing so she broke it's jaw, tough really and I hope it cost the grey's owners plenty of money.
		
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She used unnecessary force which almost certainly wasn't merited for the situation - she said herself, she lost her temper.  I thought human beings were meant to have evolved from reacting like animals?


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## TheresaW (2 December 2018)

Quite a few years ago now, I had to take my friends little terrier type to the vet at 6 in the morning after he had been attacked by 4 off lead greyhounds. He had been on a lead when it happened, his owner was bitten several times trying to get the dogs off him. He died 4 days later. I would do whatever I could to protect my dogs.


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## ester (2 December 2018)

what is unnecessary force when trying to stop one eating your own? Is it possible to manage to kick it just enough that it lets go but you don't do any damage?


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## JFTDWS (2 December 2018)

Human beings are indeed supposed to have evolved.  That's why it's the owner of the loose dog which is responsible for having their animal under control. 

If a dog attacks you, or your dog, you have a choice - risk injuring the aggressive dog or allow that dog to injure your dog.  There is no perfect answer - a dog gets hurt either way...  Well, except the owner of the dog having had it under control in the first place


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## DabDab (2 December 2018)

MotherOfChickens said:



			there isn't always time FL-if I hadn't gone for that dog when I did the attacking dog would have ripped out his penis-there were teeth marks all around it. He could have very well bled out in the street.

as for the victim blaming going on and people 'never having all these problems' well good for you. I've had one dog attacked in 30 years personally but having been a vet's partner for a decade have seen quite a few dogs in after being attacked and have seen what it did to their owners too.
		
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Yes absolutely, in my case it was dark, the labs had already come up and said hello then moved off (so I thought), then they came back out of nowhere and by the time I realised what was happening the one had hold of my dog next to me, shaking him like a stuffed toy. I grabbed the dog's jaw, dug my nails into its gums, it didn't release so I punched it in the head with everything I'd got and knocked out. Reasonable force? I don't know. I know that in that moment I didn't care if I killed the damn thing.
Unfortunately while I was getting that one off the other dived in, grabbed my dog's leg and skinned it like a banana, so by the time I'd got him in a mad panic to the vet's house and then back to the surgery (it was Christmas eve), the leg couldn't be saved.


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## Rowreach (2 December 2018)

<97702> said:



			She used unnecessary force which almost certainly wasn't merited for the situation - she said herself, she lost her temper.  I thought human beings were meant to have evolved from reacting like animals?
		
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How can you possibly know that?


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## Rowreach (2 December 2018)

For those of you who would not defend your dogs in the event another dog had it in its jaws, what would you do?

Stand there and watch your dog get ripped apart?

Run and hide behind a tree?


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## JFTDWS (2 December 2018)

Rowreach said:



			How can you possibly know that?
		
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Magic!







See also:


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## MotherOfChickens (2 December 2018)

I'm sorry DabDab, that must have been awful. It really is the most sickening thing -the attack on my old dog happened years ago and I still get incredibly angry at the entitlement of that dog's owner.


I hope Lev isn't off the forum. I know she loves dogs, especially her own-while she might not condone violence towards dogs I find it hard to believe she'd not defend her own if it came to it!


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## DabDab (2 December 2018)

Yeah I know what you mean, it was 10 years ago, but it does still haunt a bit. The worst thing was that it was my parents' dog who I was looking after while they were away for Christmas - that was not a nice Christmas morning phone call to make 

I hope Lev hasn't gone too - I think it may have been the fact that it was a greyhound in the jaw break situation that touched a nerve, dunno.


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## splashgirl45 (2 December 2018)

i am a very even tempered person in my old age and when a labrador (off lead) bit my collie cross(on lead) i kicked it as hard as i could to get it off mine.  mine was bitten quite badly but i dread to think how bad it would have been if i just stood there....i didnt consider doing it gently so as not to hurt the other dog i just wanted to stop it....i am sorry, i am a dog lover but if its a choice of my dog being badly hurt or the attacker, there is no choiceIMO.......


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## Rowreach (2 December 2018)

She hasn't gone anywhere, she has just renamed herself.


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## ester (2 December 2018)

she has 'out to pasture' previously meant not here. Wonder if you can do that yourself now then?


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## cbmcts (2 December 2018)

I took on an Akita to save my terriers. She was notorious in the area and had killed a few dogs previously. Her owner was a dickwad who had encouraged her to kill everything in sight and despite having being prosecuted and the dog put under a control order which meant that she was to be securely confined to their property and muzzled and on lead when off property.

He used to let her roam as he feuded with everyone including the landowner adjoining his house - he didn't like anyone using the field or the public footpath across it but the dog used to roam for miles. She got my terrier and just stood over her deliberately sinking her teeth in, lifting her head and then going back for another bite. I remember thinking that this was just sadistic as I ran over shouting but she didn't move, just squared up to me. It wasn't a frenzied attack it was just murderous (I can't think of any other way to describe it) and I grabbed her scruff (no collar of course) and tried to drag her off. No chance, she was nearly as heavy as me. I booted her, walloped her around the head and she still stood over my dog. I did do what is probably the stupidest thing I've ever done and leaned under and grabbed my dog and it was only then that the Akita even acknowledged me as she went for my hand and bit my wrist. It was winter and I was wearing heavy layers and an old fashioned waxed coat so while the bite didn't break the skin it did crush the face of my watch to bits.

She then went for my other terrier who was staying out of the way and while carrying my badly injured dog I managed to get between them which gave that dog a chance to run, quite literally for her life and get under my car. The owner was standing watching this the whole time I realised at this point and he was laughing...turd.

My dog ended up at the vets for 5 days, deep bites over her back, cracked ribs where she was rolled and in deep shock. I'll be honest, if I'd had a gun I would have shot that dog without a second thought, not just in the heat of the moment but at any opportunity when she was loose afterwards. I've been in the middle of too many dog fights - 99% of them noise and bluster with the participants almost relieved when it's broken up and few where it was getting nasty. I will always choose to keep my hands out as much as possible and use body, legs and noise to break it up but I have never seen anything as cold and single minded as that akita. In her defence, it really was her owner that made her like it and she could have done serious damage to me if she'd wanted too. She 'disappeared' about a year later after she did kill another dog exactly like she tried to kill mine. Unfortunately that dogs owner was a member of an even harder, nastier family than dickwad and it all kicked off big time. There were all sorts of rumours about what happened to her. Her owner ended up leaving the area and I have to say he wasn't missed.


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## DabDab (2 December 2018)

ester said:



			she has 'out to pasture' previously meant not here. Wonder if you can do that yourself now then?
		
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Oh that is odd...New forum disappearing mechanisms....intriguing.

That Akita sounds truly haunting C


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## skinnydipper (2 December 2018)

deleted


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## SadKen (2 December 2018)

The use of force up to and including lethal, in any scenario where my dog is being attacked by another?

I'm good with it. 

It would be an entirely natural reaction because the alternative would be to watch my own much loved, innocent dog die in front of me and be left with the guilt of failing to act to stop it. If it's a choice between seriously injuring or killing someone else's poorly managed aggressive dog, or watching mine be killed, I'm very comfortable with my choice to intervene. 

I always enjoy Lev's posts and I'm a bit surprised at her reaction here, although it's been a stimulating debate as a result.


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## Pinkvboots (2 December 2018)

I wouldn't want to hurt any dog but if one was trying to attack mine I would do everything in my power to stop it, and if that meant having to use brute force I would do what I feel necessary.

It amazes me how many people let dogs off a lead and then let them out of there sight, I have had 3 dogs jump on and scare the life out of my dog the owner didn't know what the dogs were doing because she couldn't see them, I have seen a muntjac dear chased and attacked by 4 dogs again no owner in sight, if people had the sense to keep there dog a bit closer to them a lot of attacks can be avoided.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (2 December 2018)

You canâ€™t always be right on forums as everyone has different ideas of right and how they would handle things. I did what I needed to do to ensure my dog wasnâ€™t killed and I wasnâ€™t bitten, I did have my collie to go and look after who was seeing off the other two. She had a couple of nasty bites as well. Sight hounds will chase and kill if they are racing trained, itâ€™s their nature/training/instinct after all. 

As for their â€˜levelâ€™ comment well that just made me laugh, I think just because he/she is a greyhound addict means that they took what I did personally, no need to it wasnâ€™t their dogs that were intent on killing mine. 

He/She has maybe been given a timeout?? I didnâ€™t report her/him, I have no need to as I donâ€™t oarticularly value anything she said nor took offence it was a discussion after all. However if they have timed themself out then I donâ€™t see why they had to, nobody is right all of the time and nobody is going to agree all of the time


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## conniegirl (2 December 2018)

My beagle is a very well socialised and friendly dog. He is mostly walked off lead when we are not near a road, he is friendly with other dogs off lead and seems to nicely approach those on lead and those who give him go away signals he stops approaching and heads off in another direction, he also has good recall so even when he has his nose to the ground (he is a scent hound after all) we can get him back.

He is very capable of defending himself and will happily do so however If any other dog attacked him with the intent of killing him I would have no problem using any force I deemed nessecary to save my dog, even if that meant the death of the other dog.

I have previously been chased by a loose dog whilst out hacking, it was notorious for jumping itâ€™s garden gate and chasing horses, it was biting at my ponys heels and hanging off his tail (it did draw blood on a hind fetlock), thankfully I was riding a pony who could kick the eye out of a fly and was not inclined to put up with it, he landed one solid kick to the dogs abdomen and the dog scarpered and no one ever reported having a problem with it chasing horses after that.


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## bonny (2 December 2018)

This thread has become a boastful my dog/myself is more aggressive than the next dog/person. Some of you I suspect have problems out walking because your dog/s are the aggressors. Whatever happened to just having a pet dog as a companion and walking partner instead of all this macho oneupmanship ?


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## JFTDWS (2 December 2018)

And there's the prize for the most bonkers post on the thread.  And that did take some impressive one-up-man-ship


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## bonny (2 December 2018)

JFTD said:



			And there's the prize for the most bonkers post on the thread.  And that did take some impressive one-up-man-ship 

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And itâ€™s not bonkers for person after person coming on to say how they would defend their dog by killing another. Itâ€™s all got a bit out of hand !


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## Cinnamontoast (3 December 2018)

But I would hurt a dog that was attacking mine, wouldn't think twice about landing a huge kick straight in its face. I know I'd panic and probably launch at it. Reasonable force is a stupid thing to say because I'm sure most people wouldn't restrain themselves when it comes to protecting their dogs and in the case of the Akita attacking, the only restraint would be me worrying about the damage it might do to me!


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## DabDab (3 December 2018)

bonny said:



			And itâ€™s not bonkers for person after person coming on to say how they would defend their dog by killing another. Itâ€™s all got a bit out of hand !
		
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Because they are expressing their opinion on the matter being discussed.

What's your opinion? It seems to be that people who have a dog attacked are asking for it....?


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## DabDab (3 December 2018)

Black Beastie said:



			He/She has maybe been given a timeout?? I didnâ€™t report her/him, I have no need to as I donâ€™t oarticularly value anything she said nor took offence it was a discussion after all. However if they have timed themself out then I donâ€™t see why they had to, nobody is right all of the time and nobody is going to agree all of the time 

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She's deleted her account. Not sure if she'll come back at some point. I hope so - like you say, people don't always agree, and sometimes, particularly online, they are actually disagreeing on two different things/different interpretations of details rather than the substance of an issue. Such is life eh ðŸ˜‘


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## Tiddlypom (3 December 2018)

Lev was already thinking of standing down from HHO, no idea why, but she'd said she was thinking of doing so on another thread. Going out to pasture is not unexpected.

Her insistance that her dog was causing no harm to anyone/anything when awol did seem to be out of character.


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## Rowreach (3 December 2018)

DabDab said:



			She's deleted her account. Not sure if she'll come back at some point. I hope so - like you say, people don't always agree, and sometimes, particularly online, they are actually disagreeing on two different things/different interpretations of details rather than the substance of an issue. Such is life eh ðŸ˜‘
		
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She's had loads of different accounts on here over the years, it's not the first time she's left so I imagine she'll return at some point.


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## skinnydipper (3 December 2018)

bonny said:



			This thread has become a boastful my dog/myself is more aggressive than the next dog/person. Some of you I suspect have problems out walking because your dog/s are the aggressors. Whatever happened to just having a pet dog as a companion and walking partner instead of all this macho oneupmanship ?
		
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This is a hasty reply as I need to go out.

Bonny, I despair at your post.

You really need to be in the position where a dog or dogs are trying to kill your much loved family member to know how you would react.

I, for one, do not stand wringing my hands or weeping hysterically - my survival instinct kicks in and I do whatever is necessary to protect me and mine.  Nobody is saying they would deliberately kill someone else's pet but believe me, if that is what it took to save my dog then I would do it.

The attack on my lurcher was so savage that the vets insisted I inform the Police.  I could give them no details other than a description of dog and man so there was little hope of finding them.  I did say to the Police that it was not my wish that someone else's pet be PTS, only that it be prevented from being able to do the same thing again - walked leashed and muzzled would have been a good start.

The owner of the dog was at the opposite side of the field and the dog came across and attacked my dog.  The owner tried to make off, still with the dog off lead.  I managed to catch up with him and the way I felt I could have killed him with my bare hands (the owner).  The owner was completely cool and unconcerned (it had obviously happened before) and told me that it was "just between dogs".  I could have knocked his head off.  My dog was minding her own business at the time of the attack.  I couldn't take the matter further as I needed to rush her to the vets.

Your reply showed your complete ignorance and lack of understanding of the situations we are referring to.


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## CorvusCorax (3 December 2018)

Well that took an unexpected turn 
On lead/off lead debates always seem to go this way for whatever reason...no one knows what they will do until they are in the situation. It would be nice to think we could all turn into ninja dog-protecting warriors, some people do just literally freeze. Sometimes, kicking and screaming can add aggression and tension to an already heated situation and make the matter worse with certain types of dog. I've had to adjust my own dog walking times and areas so as not to put my own at risk, it's not worth it.
I am sorry to see Lev go and hope she will return.


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## 9tails (3 December 2018)

Judging by a lot of posts here and posts on Facebook, you didn't have an unusual walk at all.  There are idiot dog owners everywhere.


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## skinnydipper (3 December 2018)

I too, am sorry to see Lev go.  I know she must have been upset because a greyhound had been injured but I feel sure that she would also do whatever she needed to do to defend her dogs.

Fortunately I haven't had to hit or kick any dog.  But I would absolutely do so if necessary to protect my dog.

The Staffies were locked on to Joe's neck.  As the owner was some distance away my husband and I grabbed them by the scruff and hauled them off - they had no collars.  In retrospect this was not a great idea but thankfully Joe's thick fur afforded him some protection and he suffered only puncture wounds. None of my other dogs would have come out of this so well, either from the attack or trying to pull the dogs off.

I normally walk the dogs alone so was very lucky that my husband was with me at the time of both incidents.

The attack on Layla could not have been pre-empted (neither attack could because the dogs just ran up and made instant contact, there was no situation to diffuse that could have prevented the attacks).  Just as you described, CC, when the Husky was savaging Layla my husband froze and did not react at all.  I ran at it with my arms wide, shouting and would have hit it with the ball launcher, kicked it or whatever but I must have appeared a fearsome beast as it stopped and ran back to its owner.  I knew then what I was capable of should it be necessary.

Following Layla's attack I sent for 2 Petsafe SprayShield sprays from the USA (I wanted to buy bear spray or pepper spray but it would have been confiscated by Customs).  It is a citronella spray which does not injure even if it gets in the eyes.  It does carry a warning that it may not stop all animals who are highly motivated to attack but I have found it effective.  The dog who was PTS was off lead one day and having just attacked a lab turned its attention to my crew.  I ran forward and sprayed it as she came for us and it gave the owner sufficient time to come and get hold of her.  I can't think why but I apologised to the owner for spraying her dog - duh!  

The attacks on my dogs were random, I had never seen the Staffies before and had only ever seen the Husky once or twice in the distance.  When a dog is off lead, as they all were, then I assume that it is safe to be off lead. Both the owners seemed fully aware of their dogs' predilection for attacking other dogs which made me even more angry and I shoved the Staffies' owner in the chest when he got clever with me. All the dogs left their owner and travelled a distance to attack my dogs, the Husky owner never even called his dog at all and just tried to get away, the Staffies' owner started running and calling some distance behind them.


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## Rowreach (3 December 2018)

skinnydipper said:



			I too, am sorry to see Lev go.  I know she must have been upset because a greyhound had been injured but I feel sure that she would also do whatever she needed to do to defend her dogs.
		
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I'm sure she didn't leave because of one little spat on this thread, she's been involved in far worse on here over the years.

It's a forum, it's a topical debate, it's obviously something that a lot of people have had experience of.

Everyone should be able to express an opinion without anyone else being gratuitously rude, or having a flounce 

Goodwill to all people, people!


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## Cinnamontoast (3 December 2018)

A colleague has a Pom. She said the breeder told her about a different litter, one of the dogs was eaten in the park in 2 bites. Horrifying, I couldn't have a small dog, it would panic me too much.

 I've seen even Mr calm and laid back, Brig, defend himsel-notably whilst on the lead! Mine are medium sized, I suppose and capable of defending themselves, not that Zak ever has the opportunity.


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## Sandstone1 (3 December 2018)

Its sad that this thread has turned out like this.
I understand its upsetting to hear of a dog being injured.   However I honestly dont think any of us would stand by and watch a dog being attacked and do nothing.
Any breed of dog could attack another its not just greyhounds.   I have looked up about ex racers wearing muzzles off lead and although its not the law that they do most Greyhound rescues do advise it


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## cbmcts (3 December 2018)

Don't get me wrong I don't advocate pilling into a dog fight intending to batter every dog that looks sideways at mine. I'm probably more relaxed than most about odd scuffles and random dogs running up, after all on more than one occasion mine were the ASBO dogs. But when it came to the crunch I was prepared to kill that Akita if that was the only thing that would save my poor dog dying slowly and painfully. It amazes me that I can feel pity for such a dog but really, she never had a chance with the breed she was and with the owner she had. She could have done serious damage to me but in honesty she was very restrained and showed admirable bite inhibition in hindsight. I never had an doubt who was ultimately to blame but she was the definition of a dangerous dog. Not particularly to people but certainly to other dogs, cats and poultry. All of which she killed at some point.

Like most people who spend time around horses I suspect that we, as a group instinctively are more aware of animal body language and are probably more confident to intervene in a fight because we are used to controlling and staying safe around large animals. When I'm out with my current large dog there seems to be two distinct groups - those that are terrified that he's going to eat their dog, children, them - he won't, his party trick with annoying dogs is to body slam the big ones and splat small ones with a (large) paw -  or those who think it's funny to let theirs harass him, laughing all the while about how they've got small man syndrome. But if those dogs are allowed, from pups to harass other dogs it's no surprise that we are seeing more unsocialised dogs that progress to aggression either from never learning dog manners or conversely, those who are harassed become aggressive in self defence. There are an awful lot of pet lovers out there who have no understanding of animal behaviour or management.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (3 December 2018)

It wasnâ€™t ex racers that attacked my dogs. It was racers in active training and running races still. 

It is a shame that it went this way but sometimes you need to step away and think about things and not let your fingers run away with your brain on a forum


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## bonny (3 December 2018)

Black Beastie said:



			It wasnâ€™t ex racers that attacked my dogs. It was racers in active training and running races still.

It is a shame that it went this way but sometimes you need to step away and think about things and not let your fingers run away with your brain on a forum 

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I suppose we all have different experiences and opinions whether itâ€™s dogs or horses on here, isolated experiences are just that but I guess it can colour the way you view the world and other peopleâ€™s way of dealing with things. I do stand by my opinion though that the vast majority of dogs and owners out for a walk are friendly. The real idiot dog owners are probably not out walking their status dogs in your local woods .


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## cbmcts (3 December 2018)

bonny said:



			I suppose we all have different experiences and opinions whether itâ€™s dogs or horses on here, isolated experiences are just that but I guess it can colour the way you view the world and other peopleâ€™s way of dealing with things. I do stand by my opinion though that the vast majority of dogs and owners out for a walk are friendly. The real idiot dog owners are probably not out walking their status dogs in your local woods .
		
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Maybe most are friendly and I've never had a problem with the status type dogs - there are a few around here but the dogs, like the owners tend to be all mouth, no trousers  and both respond well to a firm 'hop it'. But what I have noticed in the last 5 years or so is spoilt brat type dogs with entitled/oblivious owners. They are the ones that cause most of the problems IME and when their ill mannered dogs cause a fight they are completely ineffectual both in preventing it and breaking it up. Even when they know their dogs are prepared to put teeth on skin, human or canine they still aren't prepared to either control their dog and/or train it. That has a knock on effect in the area as other dog walkers get more nervous, making their dogs more nervous and as a result, walking in the local park becomes gladiatorial rather than relaxing. 

You maybe live in dog low density area where it is relatively easy to avoid other dogs if you want to but in many suburban/urban areas there are very limited areas where you can let your dog off lead or even walk them on lead and it isn't always easy to avoid others. Surely that's not too hard to understand? 

Like I said I've only had my dogs seriously attacked once in 40+ years of dog ownership - that was once too often and I did discover that I will defend my animals if need be. But there is now a level of unsocialised dogs that concerns me due to the apparent fact that dog attacks are increasing in both number and severity.


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## bonny (3 December 2018)

cbmcts said:



			Maybe most are friendly and I've never had a problem with the status type dogs - there are a few around here but the dogs, like the owners tend to be all mouth, no trousers  and both respond well to a firm 'hop it'. But what I have noticed in the last 5 years or so is spoilt brat type dogs with entitled/oblivious owners. They are the ones that cause most of the problems IME and when their ill mannered dogs cause a fight they are completely ineffectual both in preventing it and breaking it up. Even when they know their dogs are prepared to put teeth on skin, human or canine they still aren't prepared to either control their dog and/or train it. That has a knock on effect in the area as other dog walkers get more nervous, making their dogs more nervous and as a result, walking in the local park becomes gladiatorial rather than relaxing.

You maybe live in dog low density area where it is relatively easy to avoid other dogs if you want to but in many suburban/urban areas there are very limited areas where you can let your dog off lead or even walk them on lead and it isn't always easy to avoid others. Surely that's not too hard to understand?

Like I said I've only had my dogs seriously attacked once in 40+ years of dog ownership - that was once too often and I did discover that I will defend my animals if need be. But there is now a level of unsocialised dogs that concerns me due to the apparent fact that dog attacks are increasing in both number and severity.
		
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I live in a city, there are a lot of dogs that I meet daily !


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## Roasted Chestnuts (3 December 2018)

bonny said:



			I suppose we all have different experiences and opinions whether itâ€™s dogs or horses on here, isolated experiences are just that but I guess it can colour the way you view the world and other peopleâ€™s way of dealing with things. I do stand by my opinion though that the vast majority of dogs and owners out for a walk are friendly. The real idiot dog owners are probably not out walking their status dogs in your local woods .
		
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You yourself are like a dog with a bone. I donâ€™t have to defend my actions in protecting my dog to anyone, nor do I have to justify them. I have ignored your ramblings thus far so now you have had your acknowledgment why not toddle on?? 

In 20yrs of dog ownership one bad incident does not colour my judgement, as I said before I protect my own as have many others on this discussion, there is no right or wrong here.


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## bonny (3 December 2018)

Black Beastie said:



			You yourself are like a dog with a bone. I donâ€™t have to defend my actions in protecting my dog to anyone, nor do I have to justify them. I have ignored your ramblings thus far so now you have had your acknowledgment why not toddle on??

In 20yrs of dog ownership one bad incident does not colour my judgement, as I said before I protect my own as have many others on this discussion, there is no right or wrong here.
		
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I never mentioned you as I think you know, I was talking generally as I am perfectly free to do, now Iâ€™ve acknowledged you feel free to follow your own advice


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## JFTDWS (3 December 2018)

You did quote her post though, didn't you bonny?  Kinda implies you're talking to her!


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## bonny (3 December 2018)

Saying Iâ€™m talking generally, implies I am doing just that !


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## Roasted Chestnuts (3 December 2018)

bonny said:



			I never mentioned you as I think you know, I was talking generally as I am perfectly free to do, now Iâ€™ve acknowledged you feel free to follow your own advice
		
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How can you quote my post but not say you didnâ€™t mention me  or that you are talking generally?  I think you need to check your grip on reality or at least think before you post  you are not representing yourself well at the moment


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## Annette4 (3 December 2018)

I kicked one of my own dogs to get her off another (not that it helped, OH had to physically remove her jaw.....we found out the very serious, sudden change in behaviour from our laid back girl to wanting to kill her best friend was brain tumour related after she was PTS) and would most certainly defend my dogs against strange dogs. Personally Iâ€™m an advocate for all dogs being muzzled in public but it will never happen and itâ€™s only responsible owners who would do it anyway.


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## bonny (3 December 2018)

Black Beastie said:



			How can you quote my post but not say you didnâ€™t mention me  or that you are talking generally?  I think you need to check your grip on reality or at least think before you post  you are not representing yourself well at the moment
		
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You were talking generally about people on a forum and I answered generally about people on a forum. I didnâ€™t mention your incident with your dog.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (3 December 2018)

bonny said:



			You were talking generally about people on a forum and I answered generally about people on a forum. I didnâ€™t mention your incident with your dog.
		
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Wow honestly the passive aggressive is strong in this one.  Although the grip on reality might be slipping.


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## ester (3 December 2018)

It's fairly usual BB.


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## bonny (3 December 2018)

Black Beastie said:



			Wow honestly the passive aggressive is strong in this one.  Although the grip on reality might be slipping.
		
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Ok then, show me where I mentioned you or your dog ? Without the childish comments would be good !


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## ester (3 December 2018)

If you aren't replying specifically to a person don't press the reply button to quote their post, it really is that simple.


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## skinnydipper (3 December 2018)

bonny said:



			Ok then, show me where I mentioned you or your dog ? Without the childish comments would be good !
		
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Good Lord, don't you know when to quit.


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## JFTDWS (3 December 2018)

bonny said:



			Saying Iâ€™m talking generally, implies I am doing just that !
		
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Generally speaking, posters who are excessively antagonistic on the internet are trolls.

How would you interpret that?


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## bonny (3 December 2018)

skinnydipper said:



			Good Lord, don't you know when to quit.
		
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Apparently not !


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## bonny (3 December 2018)

Just a Festive Troll in the Dungeon said:



			Generally speaking, posters who are excessively antagonistic on the internet are trolls.

How would you interpret that?
		
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As ridiculous, Iâ€™m hardly being excessively antagonistic, do you think anyone with a different point of view to yours is ?


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## Roasted Chestnuts (3 December 2018)

bonny said:



			Ok then, show me where I mentioned you or your dog ? Without the childish comments would be good !
		
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The only person being childish and very pedantic is yourself, also going by what others are saying this seems to be your little joy in life. 

Now whereâ€™s the troll spray


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## JFTDWS (3 December 2018)

bonny said:



			As ridiculous, Iâ€™m hardly being excessively antagonistic, do you think anyone with a different point of view to yours is ?
		
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Why are you taking it personally?  I did say "generally speaking" didn't I? 

#TakesBow


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## bonny (3 December 2018)

Just a Festive Troll in the Dungeon said:



			Why are you taking it personally?  I did say "generally speaking" didn't I?

#TakesBow
		
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No, you clearly were directing your comments are me but as you seem to take pleasure in accusing me of being a troll then your bow is noted. Well done.


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## ester (3 December 2018)

Ha, so now it's clear..... you couldn't make it up.


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## JFTDWS (3 December 2018)

So it's OK for you to assume the comments were directed at you, but not for BB to assume your comments were directed at her?  Can you see the inconsistency here?


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## Rowreach (3 December 2018)

I only went out for pizza 

I have noticed that when the Irish Wolfhound puppy is being walked (at about 9am every day), there are very few other dog walkers about now.  

She belongs to an elderly couple who previously had an older (totally out of control IW).  When the old one had to be pts I'm afraid we were rather relieved, as she caused so much trouble knocking people flying and scaring the bejesus out of people.  And then they got a puppy


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## bonny (3 December 2018)

Just a Festive Troll in the Dungeon said:



			So it's OK for you to assume the comments were directed at you, but not for BB to assume your comments were directed at her?  Can you see the inconsistency here?
		
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No, this is really pointless but I asked B.B. to show me where I mentioned her or her dog, I didnâ€™t mention anyone, I merely talked about my experiences of walking dogs, if everyone is just supposed to agree with everyone else on here then what is the point of having a forum ?


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## JFTDWS (3 December 2018)

Perhaps you could show me where I mentioned you in my post?  You just presumed, because I quoted you...  I know this may be a revolutionary concept to you, but this really is how quoting works, and BB was not at fault for presuming you understood this


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## bonny (3 December 2018)

Just a Festive Troll in the Dungeon said:



			Perhaps you could show me where I mentioned you in my post?  You just presumed, because I quoted you...  I know this may be a revolutionary concept to you, but this really is how quoting works, and BB was not at fault for presuming you understood this 

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Itâ€™s hardly the first time, if you want to follow me round accusing me of being a troll then so be it. I fail to see what you get out of it but if it pleases you then good for you. I donâ€™t see the point but I guess it makes you feel clever so Iâ€™ll leave you to your bowing !


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## JFTDWS (3 December 2018)

Um, you're the one who keeps quoting me, dear.  I'm not following you around at all!


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## YorksG (3 December 2018)

bonny said:



			Itâ€™s hardly the first time, if you want to follow me round accusing me of being a troll then so be it. I fail to see what you get out of it but if it pleases you then good for you. I donâ€™t see the point but I guess it makes you feel clever so Iâ€™ll leave you to your bowing !
		
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Pot, kettle, black


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## bonny (3 December 2018)

FestiveG said:



			Pot, kettle, black 

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I have never accused anyone of being a troll


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## JFTDWS (3 December 2018)

Rightly so - because I'm not a troll.  I'm an annoying smart arse sometimes, but I'm very definitely a real person who is fairly consistent in real life and online - and there are plenty of folk on here who are aware of that.


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## YorksG (3 December 2018)

bonny said:



			I have never accused anyone of being a troll
		
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No, but you have accused them of f ollowing you around, while following them


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## bonny (3 December 2018)

Just a Festive Troll in the Dungeon said:



			Rightly so - because I'm not a troll.  I'm an annoying smart arse sometimes, but I'm very definitely a real person who is fairly consistent in real life and online - and there are plenty of folk on here who are aware of that.
		
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I think youâ€™ll find Iâ€™m a real person too


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## JFTDWS (3 December 2018)

Funny, I presumed you were a dog.


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## Amymay (3 December 2018)

I 'walk' dogs daily, and thankfully have rarely had a problem with other dogs.  We had did have a problem on the beach last summer when a Dalmation attacked one of ours - totally unprovoked.   I'm afraid my partner was straight in with his size 10's.

And a few weeks ago a chap was most put out when I dragged his rude dog back to him after it mercilessly chased Daisy.  Apparently if I didn't want my dog to play with others, it shouldn't have been on the beach.  I told him that if he couldn't control his - it shouldn't be on the beach...

I love a happy group of dogs mixing it up together.  But I'm very vigilant about body language and type of dog.  The dogs I walk have excellent recall.  Rightly (or wrongly) a greyhound has me gathering them up and heading in the opposite direction (all my 'walkers' bar one are small furries).


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## splashgirl45 (3 December 2018)

people who have never had a dog attacked are very lucky.   there is a lady who walks a min jack russel in the park that i use.  it has 3 legs, she walks in our park because her husband was walking the little dog on the lead in their local park and a staffie attacked and tore its leg so badly it was beyond repair....luckily my park has mostly good natured dogs and we all know the couple of not so nice dogs and avoid them...


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## GreyMane (3 December 2018)

"*How to Safely Break Up a Dog Fight*"
http://www.saferpets.co.uk/safely-break-dog-fight.html


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## splashgirl45 (3 December 2018)

gm  that is talking about a dog fight,  what we have been discussing is an aggressive dog attacking a passive dog, not the same thing....agree a proper dog fight is very difficult to break up if you are alone...dont think this applies, if you wait for someone else your own dog is likely to be killed...


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## Cinnamontoast (3 December 2018)

Personally Iâ€™m an advocate for all dogs being muzzled in public but it will never happen and itâ€™s only responsible owners who would do it anyway.
		
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I absolutely see where you're coming from BUT Zak used to be walked in a muzzle but still attacked a dog I didn't see coming. He couldn't do damage but boy, he was trying! He went missing wearing his muzzle one night, found him eventually-sans muzzle. He lives to retrieve, so muzzles are not conducive to keeping the swine occupied. No incidents for some years because we're paranoid and the OH can run fast.


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## Annette4 (4 December 2018)

cinnamontoast said:



			I absolutely see where you're coming from BUT Zak used to be walked in a muzzle but still attacked a dog I didn't see coming. He couldn't do damage but boy, he was trying! He went missing wearing his muzzle one night, found him eventually-sans muzzle. He lives to retrieve, so muzzles are not conducive to keeping the swine occupied. No incidents for some years because we're paranoid and the OH can run fast.
		
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Mine are the same in terms being ball/frisbee obsessed so it would be a shame and Iâ€™m fully aware itâ€™s not practical or enforceable but it is just a thought Iâ€™ve had over recent years. Fizz wears a muzzle when sheâ€™s off the lead but weâ€™re not playing fetch and Dobby is likely to end up the same if he ever gets a strong enough recall that I can let him off his long line, just to stop them eating wildlife (she wonâ€™t go if I spot it first and call them back but a couple of times shes spotted a bunny before me).


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## SadKen (4 December 2018)

The problem with muzzles for all is that the people with nice dogs will accept the law and apply a muzzle.  The type of people who have the types of dogs mentioned in this thread will not muzzle. 

Now you have aggressive dogs who can attack others with impunity.

My old GSD didn't like other dogs up in his face, he would vocalise and make a show of nipping (never with any intent) if they got close.  I always had him on a lead, and never allowed him to interact with other dogs unless I could control both elements (e.g. friends' dogs - all entirely successful).  I considered muzzling him but as other off lead dogs had attempted to bite him on lead on several occasions I decided it would be incredibly unfair to deprive him of his only defence.  I would always avoid other dogs when walking, but if other people allow their dog to race up to mine after a shouted request to desist and clear body language from my dog, that's their fault.  It's a no to muzzles for all from me.


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## leflynn (4 December 2018)

I am sick of off lead dogs not being under control, I've been threatened after asking owners to put them on leads after me and my greyhound were cornered by two aggressive newfoundlands. I've had the same from a GSD owner with a younger dog and a pup trying to train them recall on a public path next to a very busy A road, I was shouted and sworn at and told it was me who needed to train my dog that thankfully stood and did nothing while the puppy snapped about his legs (he was having chemo at the time so didn't want any blood spilt) - both told me it was my fault as he was on a lead and not under control (WTF?)

My poor boy has been attacked twice now by small terriers that think its fun to hang off his leg and resulted in puncture wounds, he is now blind in one eye and doesn't like small jumpy things jumping at his blind side (I warn people with off lead jumpy dogs as a precaution not that he does anything).  He doesn't wear a muzzle anymore and has never attacked anything even when I first got him and he thought all small fluffy things were fair game and he is always on a lead as his recall is sketchy.


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## sbloom (4 December 2018)

Clodagh said:



			One reason for dogs on leads getting attacked is they are often attached to an owner giving off panic vibes, and therefore maknig the dog on the lead panic too. My mother could start a fight between two dogs at any time, because she is always sure it is going to happen, so often it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.
		
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I totally agree with this.  We have a soppy, entire male Great Dane.  Well, he was soppy until he was attacked twice between one and two years, a Border bit his cheek when being held in his owner's arms and she bent down to say hello.  Then by a poodle, and he was just minding his own business, he likes meeting other dogs but isn't especially playful.

SO he went from absolutely 100% dappy, now not so much.  If a dog gets mildly aggressive then he will react, and in our experience they're 90% on lead, and partly fired by the anxiety of their owners.  So he is much more likely to have a minor fracas (usually just hackles and grumbles) with a dog on lead.  And yes, if you possibly can avoid it, picking up a small dog may lead to a Dane's head still being able to reach it even without leaving the ground.  Luckily ours is 100% that he does not go up on his back legs.

What you can't do with a Dane, or most scent hounds, is have 100% recall.  So we walk in very rural, usually quiet, places where 90% of dogs are off lead, and we read the dog's and owner's body language before deciding whether to call him back and put him on the lead.  Sometimes he will not come back, but he has literally NEVER started anything.  We won't choose to walk him on the lead, Dane's need to run and he'd be damned miserable.



Rowreach said:



			She belongs to an elderly couple who previously had an older (totally out of control IW).  When the old one had to be pts I'm afraid we were rather relieved, as she caused so much trouble knocking people flying and scaring the bejesus out of people.  And then they got a puppy 

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Older people should never have large puppies, or keep large dogs later in life.  I am 11 stone and fit, in my forties, and ours pulled me clean off my feet when a spaniel was aggressive, on lead.  I put my hand through his collar and sadly he took that as needing to protect me.  I kept hold of the bugger but the spaniel owner will now think he's aggressive.  I am as sure as I can be that if he left the spaniel off lead they'd have met and been fine, ours gets himself out of the way if anything has a pop off lead, not interested.  We see it all the time, and OH will often try and persuade people to stop, chat, let the dogs see each other and hackles go down and everything calms down.  Next time they meet they stay off lead with no problem.  This has worked even with a persistently aggressive pointer that OH meets at the woods.

I freeze when things go wrong so I try and avoid trouble, OH is always the one wading in if there's ever any bother, amazing instincts.

So it depends on the breed, it depends where you walk, it depends how you are with your dog.  To say no dog should be off the lead if it doesn't have 100% recall might apply to your busy local park, but would be totally ridiculous for some breeds and many very rural locations.  We have discussions with several people where the deliberately drive to these places because most dogs are off lead and owners are understanding.

I am not directly questioning the OP but I do wonder how many people misinterpret "evident ill intent ", get tense and make the situation worse.  I probably would which is why I hardly ever walk him on my own, especially since he pulled me off my feet.


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## YorksG (4 December 2018)

We walk our Rotters on their leads and get thoroughly hacked off if people let their dogs come to "talk", either on or off lead. The girls are not aggressive and are very well socialised, but having had a numpty allow their Rotty to snap at ours at Bramham and another allowing her GSD to jump on one of the girls in the car park at a Dogs Trust event, we tend to avoid people with dogs, if at all possible. They play well with others at home and their two best friends are a dalmaition and a very small Staffie.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (4 December 2018)

FestiveG said:



			We walk our Rotters on their leads and get thoroughly hacked off if people let their dogs come to "talk"
		
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No wonder as regardless of the type of dog that was being horrid to your dogs it would be yours seen as the aggressors due to that horrid stereotyping!

Iâ€™m glad I donâ€™t have a dog anymore as some of the people who have them have no idea and just let them do what they want.


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## Tiddlypom (4 December 2018)

Arghh, another 'normal rules don't apply to me' post.

sbloom, I thought better of you. If you can't handle a Great Dane, don't have one.

Many dogs, like mine, are on a lead purely of poor recall. He is very prey driven, after bunnies mostly, and goes deaf lugs when on a scent. I am not nervous or hysterical when meeting other folk and their dogs, just business like and purposeful.


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## milliepops (4 December 2018)

been reading this thread with interest.
I totally understand all the expert dog handlers and keepers saying how you should behave when a loose dog approaches.
What if the loose dog approaches a non-dog owner just minding their own business?  My dad is afraid of dogs, he's fit but fairly elderly and likes to go for walks in the countryside, woodland etc. i know he finds it incredibly intimidating when someone's big dog romps up off lead, and may not react in the way that would be optimum for the dog to ignore him.  God forbid he should take the neighbour's dog out for company on a lead... cos he almost certainly would do the "wrong thing" then. One shouldn't expect joe public to be able to cope in these sorts of situations, they should never be put in that position at all.


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## bonny (4 December 2018)

milliepops said:



			been reading this thread with interest.
I totally understand all the expert dog handlers and keepers saying how you should behave when a loose dog approaches.
What if the loose dog approaches a non-dog owner just minding their own business?  My dad is afraid of dogs, he's fit but fairly elderly and likes to go for walks in the countryside, woodland etc. i know he finds it incredibly intimidating when someone's big dog romps up off lead, and may not react in the way that would be optimum for the dog to ignore him.  God forbid he should take the neighbour's dog out for company on a lead... cos he almost certainly would do the "wrong thing" then. One shouldn't expect joe public to be able to cope in these sorts of situations, they should never be put in that position at all.
		
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I would hope/expect any dog to just ignore your dad, they might be interested in another dog but shouldnâ€™t be with a person unless they have led a very sheltered life. In a similar vein, there is an Indian family who live near me who are scared of dogs and the woman of the family literally stands and screams. I canâ€™t help but think we live on a small, overcrowded island and she should be able to walk past without becoming hysterical, must be difficult living in a country full of dogs with such a phobia.


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## MotherOfChickens (4 December 2018)

bonny said:



			I would hope/expect any dog to just ignore your dad, they might be interested in another dog but shouldnâ€™t be with a person unless they have led a very sheltered life. In a similar vein, there is an Indian family who live near me who are scared of dogs and the woman of the family literally stands and screams. I canâ€™t help but think we live on a small, overcrowded island and she should be able to walk past without becoming hysterical, must be difficult living in a country full of dogs with such a phobia.
		
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lots of people don't like dogs, lots of people don't know dogs-dog owners do not have the right to let their dogs bounce around other people, other dogs or horses. my step kids are autistic and very nervous of strange dogs after being bowled over by a boxer in the park when they were wee. they are fine with my dogs having been brought up with them but strange dogs off lead/near them scare them and no amount of 'don't worry, they're friendly' is going to help. do they not have the right to walk outside because some numpty can't keep their dogs under close control?

My old PhD supervisor is a big bloke, a keen walker and nervous of dogs and he's so fed up with strange dogs jumping all over him he now carries an air spray as it happens nearly every time he goes walking. I don't particularly care for dogs jumping up at me either, having been on the receiving end of an EBT going for me in Leith-I still bear the scar on my hand from that one. and tbh, I don't much care for muddy paws on me-I don't allow it from my dogs let alone like it from other people's dogs.


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## bonny (4 December 2018)

All dogs should learn as puppies to ignore other people


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## MotherOfChickens (4 December 2018)

bonny said:



			All dogs should learn as puppies to ignore other people
		
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of course, but people aren't teaching them that-just like they aren't socialising them well with other dogs, not teaching them to not chase stock or wildlife etc etc etc


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## skinnydipper (4 December 2018)

milliepops said:



			been reading this thread with interest.
I totally understand all the expert dog handlers and keepers saying how you should behave when a loose dog approaches.
What if the loose dog approaches a non-dog owner just minding their own business?  My dad is afraid of dogs, he's fit but fairly elderly and likes to go for walks in the countryside, woodland etc. i know he finds it incredibly intimidating when someone's big dog romps up off lead, and may not react in the way that would be optimum for the dog to ignore him.  God forbid he should take the neighbour's dog out for company on a lead... cos he almost certainly would do the "wrong thing" then. One shouldn't expect joe public to be able to cope in these sorts of situations, they should never be put in that position at all.
		
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I think you raise a very good point.

I think it is unacceptable to allow a dog to approach another person (whether they have a dog with them or not).

My dog does not appreciate the attention of strangers and would never solicit their attention (if they tried to stroke him he would bark and scare the living daylights out of them).  Although he has shown no interest in cyclists, pedestrians or joggers, for his protection I always put him on his lead and keep him out of harms way until we get past.  It makes the other person feel more comfortable but also because people are unpredictable - one day a jogger shoved his hand in the big lad's face as he passed - I believe it was intended as a friendly gesture by someone with little to no experience of dogs.

Edit.  I totally agree with MOC.  I dislike dogs jumping up my legs, muddy or not.


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## Rowreach (4 December 2018)

It's one of the big problems at work - the locals tend to use the estate for dog walking, the visitors are usually dogless, clean and tidy, and want to do a bit of sightseeing without being pounced on (or treading in a pile of dog poo).  

It's odd how many dog walkers cannot seem to accept that not everyone likes dogs, whether it's because they simply don't, or they are allergic to them, or scared of them, or frail and afraid of falling over and hurting themselves, or they are small children to whom any dog approaching can be scary.

Like I said before, it's plain manners to control your dogs and prevent them from annoying any other dog or person or random bit of wildlife.


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## Pearlsasinger (4 December 2018)

Our Rottweilers have a very high prey drive and excellent recall, so long s nothing else takes their attention.  They are walked on their leads.  They get plenty of exercise off-lead at home, on our own land.  They are very well socialised and would never dream of attacking another dog without provocation.  I certainly don't get tense and panic when we meet another dog, as I know full well that my dogs will simply walk past but I do expect other dog-owners to have their dogs under control.  I do think we probably have fewer incidents with loose dogs because most (but not all) owners realise that if their fluffy thing attacks a Rottweiler it will probably come off worst.  Fortunately the girls are well-mannered and dog neutral except under extreme provocation.


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## splashgirl45 (4 December 2018)

i try to be as thoughtful as possible and as i know my little terrier loves everyone i am very careful if i see someone with small children or people without dogs, he goes on the lead just to be sure but most of the time once the children get near him they cant wait to stroke him, prob because he is about the size of a yorkie and his tail is wagging furiously...the same if i see a dog on the lead because although he is a friendly chap its not fair to let him jump up at other peoples dogs...i am lucky as where i walk i know most of the people and dogs so mine are off lead most of the time but if i go elsewhere i am much more likely to keep him on the lead...my older dog ignores other dogs and people unless they come to say hello so she is always off lead unless next to a road....


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## TheresaW (4 December 2018)

Donâ€™t get me started with jumping up! Luna was a terror for it as a puppy. Jumping up the door as we went out, again when we got back, people we passed.  Have worked really hard with it, and she does know down.  My problem is when people want to stroke her, which is fine, I will tell her down, and they encourage her to jump and say â€œoh I donâ€™t mindâ€. No, you might not, but the next person may well.  I tend to cross roads etc now to avoid people.


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## SadKen (4 December 2018)

sbloom said:



			If a dog gets mildly aggressive then he will react, and in our experience they're 90% on lead, and partly fired by the anxiety of their owners. So he is much more likely to have a minor fracas (usually just hackles and grumbles) with a dog on lead.
		
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Yeah, sorry, I don't agree with your approach here sbloom.

If your Dane approached my old GSD and got in his space then he would certainly react due to experiences he'd had in the past. He also carried his tail high which prompted attacks from other dogs. As soon as I saw other dogs he would go straight on the lead because his recall wasn't reliable around other dogs, and so I could avoid them and remove risk. I don't know you or your Dane (and in the event of an attack either or both dogs, plus humans, could be seriously injured). So yes, I am wary when meeting off lead dogs i don't know, which aren't under close control, which are capable of inflicting serious damage on mine. 

A 'minor fracas' could escalate into a catastrophe. Even if it remains a minor fracas to you, it may not be minor to the other dog or the other owner. There is zero benefit in allowing that interaction and many potential risks.

I do appreciate that you walk rurally to try and mitigate.


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## DabDab (4 December 2018)

TheresaW said:



			Donâ€™t get me started with jumping up! Luna was a terror for it as a puppy. Jumping up the door as we went out, again when we got back, people we passed.  Have worked really hard with it, and she does know down.  My problem is when people want to stroke her, which is fine, I will tell her down, and they encourage her to jump and say â€œoh I donâ€™t mindâ€. No, you might not, but the next person may well.  I tend to cross roads etc now to avoid people.
		
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God yes, the jumping up thing drives me nuts too. I've never managed to train my jrt x not to do it, and ok, at 4kg she's never going to bowl anyone over, but very few people want muddy paws on them and she also hand licks in an attempt to get people to stroke her, which I should think could be extremely unpleasant to a non dog person. 
Unfortunately, she's small and cute looking so people have always inadvertently encouraged her to jump up, so I'm fighting a losing battle. But I do feel awful when I've got her in a crowd and she picks the wrong child to try to convince to love her. Although when she was a puppy she used to fairly regularly pee on people's shoes in excitement, so I guess we're a step on from there ðŸ˜‚


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## skinnydipper (4 December 2018)

sbloom said:



			I totally agree with this.  We have a soppy, entire male Great Dane.  Well, he was soppy until he was attacked twice between one and two years, a Border bit his cheek when being held in his owner's arms and she bent down to say hello.  Then by a poodle, and he was just minding his own business, he likes meeting other dogs but isn't especially playful.

SO he went from absolutely 100% dappy, now not so much.  If a dog gets mildly aggressive then he will react, and in our experience they're 90% on lead, and partly fired by the anxiety of their owners.  So he is much more likely to have a minor fracas (usually just hackles and grumbles) with a dog on lead.  And yes, if you possibly can avoid it, picking up a small dog may lead to a Dane's head still being able to reach it even without leaving the ground.  Luckily ours is 100% that he does not go up on his back legs.

What you can't do with a Dane, or most scent hounds, is have 100% recall.  So we walk in very rural, usually quiet, places where 90% of dogs are off lead, and we read the dog's and owner's body language before deciding whether to call him back and put him on the lead.  Sometimes he will not come back, but he has literally NEVER started anything.  We won't choose to walk him on the lead, Dane's need to run and he'd be damned miserable.



Older people should never have large puppies, or keep large dogs later in life.  I am 11 stone and fit, in my forties, and ours pulled me clean off my feet when a spaniel was aggressive, on lead.  I put my hand through his collar and sadly he took that as needing to protect me.  I kept hold of the bugger but the spaniel owner will now think he's aggressive.  I am as sure as I can be that if he left the spaniel off lead they'd have met and been fine, ours gets himself out of the way if anything has a pop off lead, not interested.  We see it all the time, and OH will often try and persuade people to stop, chat, let the dogs see each other and hackles go down and everything calms down.  Next time they meet they stay off lead with no problem.  This has worked even with a persistently aggressive pointer that OH meets at the woods.

I freeze when things go wrong so I try and avoid trouble, OH is always the one wading in if there's ever any bother, amazing instincts.

So it depends on the breed, it depends where you walk, it depends how you are with your dog.  To say no dog should be off the lead if it doesn't have 100% recall might apply to your busy local park, but would be totally ridiculous for some breeds and many very rural locations.  We have discussions with several people where the deliberately drive to these places because most dogs are off lead and owners are understanding.

I am not directly questioning the OP but I do wonder how many people misinterpret "evident ill intent ", get tense and make the situation worse.  I probably would which is why I hardly ever walk him on my own, especially since he pulled me off my feet.
		
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I am not sure I understand your post.

Are you saying you have a giant breed who is not 100% around other dogs?
Who has pulled you off your feet?
Who is allowed to approach other dogs that are on lead and will react if the other dog does not like your dog in its face?
You freeze when things go wrong?
You allow him off lead when you know you don't have reliable recall knowing that "he is likely to have a _minor fracas"_ with a dog on lead?
YOU decide whether to allow him to approach another dog but sometimes HE will not come back?
You think an older person should not have a large breed when in fact you are unable to control your own giant breed? (WOW)
You do have problems because OH has to wade in?

I am glad that you don't bump into me with your dog because I am not an "understanding owner"


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## GreyMane (4 December 2018)

Two more memories this thread has triggered...
1) An Open Day at the big local vet training school. Hundreds of people with their dogs of all breeds and sizes: and it was *totally* peaceful. Did not hear so much as a bark all day; shows it can be done. Lovely.
2) Not so lovely; three drunks, 2 men and a woman, approaching me with their dog, a Staffy type, running ahead. This unfortunate dog has been encouraged to tear off nearly all the lower bark from a tree next to the kids' play area in our local park.  It ran across the road directly towards me, growling quietly. All I had was an empty shopping bag which I held in front of my legs. Felt the hair standing up on my arms; a weird sensation. The woman yelled "He's all right, he always does that when he's being friendly". (What? Runs towards people growling?)
No lead, no attempt to recall.  I froze, the dog reached me, bumped my thigh once with its nose and ran off. Phew. No apology either.

*What do you carry with you "just in case" on walks? *

[Talking of recall, remember Fenton ?]


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## PapaverFollis (4 December 2018)

I wouldn't want to have a minor fracas with a Great Dane myself. Never mind my 17kg spaniel.

Mine are never allowed to approach on lead dogs. Dogs being on lead, their owner's body language or whatever included, are therefore not a problem. Simple really. My dogs are perfectly friendly and basically dog neutral but the most they get to interact with others is a quick sniff in passing with other off lead dogs. I have achieved this by essentially bribing them over the years with lots of biscuits. I have no problem with this. ðŸ˜‚

I don't see a need for any interactions between my dogs and an unknown dog.


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## DabDab (4 December 2018)

skinnydipper said:



			I am not sure I understand your post.

Are you saying you have a giant breed who is not 100% around other dogs?
Who has pulled you off your feet?
Who is allowed to approach other dogs that are on lead and will react if the other dog does not like your dog in its face?
You freeze when things go wrong?
You allow him off lead when you know you don't have reliable recall knowing that "he is likely to have a _minor fracas"_ with a dog on lead?
YOU decide whether to allow him to approach another dog but sometimes HE will not come back?
You think an older person should not have a large breed when in fact you are unable to control your own giant breed? (WOW)
You do have problems because OH has to wade in?

I am glad that you don't bump into me with your dog because I am not an "understanding owner"
		
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Add on to this...
I should clarify that when I pick my small dogs up it is not so that I can stand there holding them in your dog's face, it is so I can turn back on your dog, shielding mine and walk away.


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## planete (5 December 2018)

I walk in a very rural area to avoid numpty owners.  Unfortunately  owners who cannot control their dogs sometime think a rural area is an ideal place to let their dog exercise his right to run off lead (there is no such thing by the way).  My high prey drive dogs are on lead minding their own business.  What I think of people who cannot recall their dogs when they meet us is unprintable.  Should any incident occur because of this kind of idiocy I would do everything in my power to make the owner pay for their mistake by all legal means available.  I am over 70, have three under control dogs and if anybody think it is ok to have a giant dog and let him approach me and my dogs they are totally irresponsible.  Sorry sbloom, just pray you never meet me. As to my right to own my dogs, how dare you after admitting you cannot control your own dog?


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## Cinnamontoast (5 December 2018)

I'm glad not to have seen the old 'Mine just wants to play/you should let them sort it out amongst themselves' trotted out on here. I think we sound-mostly-like sensible owners with some glaring exceptions! 

I have no need, as PapaverFollis says, to give my dogs interaction opportunities with other dogs. I'd rather not risk it.


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## Tiddlypom (5 December 2018)

Skinnydipper, you missed this bit out



sbloom said:



			see it all the time, and OH will often try and persuade people to stop, chat, let the dogs see each other and hackles go down and everything calms down.
		
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So your OH actively tries to get folk to remove the lead of their onlead dog so that it can interact with your poorly controlled, unreliable and extremely large dog? What a numptie. I would tell him exactly where to s0d off to if he tried it with me.

ETA As Rowreach, MoC, milliepops and others have said, many folk either don't like or are scared of dogs. They don't appreciate a dog of any size gambolling up to them. Many dog owners simply don't get this, it seems to be more socially acceptable to admit that you dislike children than that you dislike dogs. 

Even though the JRT is always walked on a lead, I make sure that I give an extra wide berth to anyone walking without a dog as I presume that they are dog dislikers. Actually the JRT loves people (especially if they may be carrying sandwiches in their backpack!).


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## skinnydipper (5 December 2018)

Tiddlypom said:



			Skinnydipper, you missed this bit out
So your OH actively tries to get folk to remove the lead of their onlead dog so that it can interact with your poorly controlled, unreliable and extremely large dog? What a numptie. I would tell him exactly where to s0d off to if he tried it with me.
		
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Sorry for the oversight, Tiddlypom (and DabDab).  There was just so much wrong with that post that it was difficult to assimilate.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (5 December 2018)

I think my hackles would be up if such a large dog was growling hackles up at any dog I was walking. I work with someone who shows Great Danes and sheâ€™s not exactly a big lass but as she said it all in the training and handling. 

Not a good idea Iâ€™d be staying well away. I live rurally so even when Iâ€™m out hacking I donâ€™t meet many dog walkers, however I have gone hacking to large country parks and I have to say I was impressed with those dog walkers, very considerate.


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## blackcob (5 December 2018)

I have had a minor fracas with a great dane while out riding. Bastard thing could have killed me. It later went on to badly hurt a runner on the same stretch of track and the police ended up being involved.

I have two strictly on-lead by warrant of breed/prey drive dogs, one reactive in the sense that he's terrified of anything bowling up to his face at full speed and will scream and lunge (fair enough!), one increasingly elderly and grumpy. I have two off-lead completely dog neutral dogs. I have one tiny pick-up-able dog who will also hopefully have good recall and be dog neutral. 

There is no reason or benefit for any of them to come into contact with random dogs out walking, neither do I need to unclench and 'let them sort it out themselves'. I'm out walking to walk my dogs, not to pander to people who can't provide their dogs enough exercise and stimulation themselves without having to inflict them on everyone else. Short of a great big neon sign saying 'I don't want to interact with you', a lead and a big shouty voice will have to do.


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## sbloom (5 December 2018)

Pearlsacarolsinger said:



			Our Rottweilers have a very high prey drive and excellent recall, so long s nothing else takes their attention.  They are walked on their leads.  They get plenty of exercise off-lead at home, on our own land.  They are very well socialised and would never dream of attacking another dog without provocation.  I certainly don't get tense and panic when we meet another dog, as I know full well that my dogs will simply walk past but I do expect other dog-owners to have their dogs under control.  I do think we probably have fewer incidents with loose dogs because most (but not all) owners realise that if their fluffy thing attacks a Rottweiler it will probably come off worst.  Fortunately the girls are well-mannered and dog neutral except under extreme provocation.
		
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The only difference with ours is that we have nowhere to run him off lead and Danes don't play with balls (on the whole) or otherwise play to exercise, they need walks to run.  Opinions on Danes seem to be polarised with half thinking they must be vicious and avoiding them/him, and the other half knowing they're dappy on the whole so don't bother watching their own dogs around him.  Hence he's been bitten (one tooth hole/mark each time) by two other dogs, both times they actively went for him, it wasn't any kind of 50-50 interaction.



SadKen said:



			Yeah, sorry, I don't agree with your approach here sbloom.

If your Dane approached my old GSD and got in his space then he would certainly react due to experiences he'd had in the past. He also carried his tail high which prompted attacks from other dogs. As soon as I saw other dogs he would go straight on the lead because his recall wasn't reliable around other dogs, and so I could avoid them and remove risk. I don't know you or your Dane (and in the event of an attack either or both dogs, plus humans, could be seriously injured). So yes, I am wary when meeting off lead dogs i don't know, which aren't under close control, which are capable of inflicting serious damage on mine.

A 'minor fracas' could escalate into a catastrophe. Even if it remains a minor fracas to you, it may not be minor to the other dog or the other owner. There is zero benefit in allowing that interaction and many potential risks.

I do appreciate that you walk rurally to try and mitigate.
		
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We chat to the owners, all the time, we usually meet the same dogs, we watch their body language and act accordingly.  We avoid parks etc.  He does not bound right up to other dogs even if he IS off the lead and they are not, he has been trained not to, but ultimately occasionally he closes his ears to us, usually just standing and waiting for the other dogs that are approacing, often giving us time to get to him anyway.  He does not go bowling in, he reads the other dogs as much as we do.  If he did not then perhaps we'd have to put him on lead all the time, but it would be a damned miserable life for most Danes, and this Dane in particular.

I appreciate things can escalate, but they haven't in five years.  We see the same owners over and over.  There is one whose dog will not stop having a go (ie growling and barking and stressing) at ours, she walks three off lead, one very large lurcher type which is the problem dog, and they spoke and agreed not to walk at the same time as she walks at the same time and place every day.



skinnydipper said:



			I am not sure I understand your post.

Are you saying you have a giant breed who is not 100% around other dogs?
Who has pulled you off your feet?
Who is allowed to approach other dogs that are on lead and will react if the other dog does not like your dog in its face?
You freeze when things go wrong?
You allow him off lead when you know you don't have reliable recall knowing that "he is likely to have a _minor fracas"_ with a dog on lead?
YOU decide whether to allow him to approach another dog but sometimes HE will not come back?
You think an older person should not have a large breed when in fact you are unable to control your own giant breed? (WOW)
You do have problems because OH has to wade in?

I am glad that you don't bump into me with your dog because I am not an "understanding owner"
		
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Nicely edited, wishing I had written even more of an essay with even more detail.  These are the reasons, as I said, that I avoid walking him on my own.  He once pulled me off my feet, once.  He can't do so on the lead.  He weighs 12 stone.  However I do know that he is much less likely to react if I put a lead on rather than holding him by the collar, and as he seems to be slightly more defensive if it's me walking him alone I really don't walk him on my own any more.  

The places we walk are nearly all off lead for nearly all dogs in practice and most other people walk there (three locations) because of it. Once in a blue moon does an incident happen and never anything significant, he's 5 and has never harmed another dog or owner in any way.  He has a ton of dog walkers who know him from walks and love him, he's known as being very soft and gentle.  Doesn't mean we rest on our laurels.

I never said he was "likely to have an issue" with a dog on a lead.  He's not likely to, at all.  However, where we walk and in our experience, other dogs are more likely to get aggressive when they see him if THEY are on the lead meaning we are more likely to get some sort of reaction from him.  Everything stays much calmer if they meet off lead.  That is what I said, and stand by it.  Doesn't mean we just leave him off the lead willy nilly.



planete said:



			Sorry sbloom, just pray you never meet me. As to my right to own my dogs, how dare you after admitting you cannot control your own dog?
		
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I overstated it saying "never", I was reacting specifically to the comment about the elderly couple who had had a thoroughly out of control/nuisance Irish Wolfhound, and now have a puppy of the same breed. I had always managed to hold ours, not that we often need to. I weigh about as much as he does.  Now that he has pulled me off my feet, ONCE, I am even more circumspect than I was.  I bet we've all seen labradors or similar that can pull someone off their feet in the "right" ie wrong circumstances.  Lots of older people have dogs they can hold, no problem, though I certainly know plenty that wouldn't be able to cope with the strength of their dog if anything did kick off.  I posted my experience as an illustration as to why older, less strong owners shouldn't take on giant breeds.  All dogs can be stronger than people think, so it's taking that into account when buying/adopting any kind of dog, and taking into account one's strength and fitness.


---


I totally understand that you think my post is all wrong, but it's our genuine experience. 

I should have quoted but can't find it now, in response to my OH trying to "tell" people to let their dogs off the lead.....I think we all exchange brief words with owners we pass on rural walks (ie not where there are tens of dogs at a park), and whether he suggests this entirely depends on the situation and the owners.  I wrote an essay as it was, and was only writing what we both observe, to go into every single detail was OTT.  Where he does suggest it, and as I say, it's far from every encounter, it works a treat.  With a couple of entrenched cases that he has got to know well he simply spends time chatting to the owner to let the dogs calm down a bit, and it does help for the next encounter and they've ended up with no issues if they do meet off lead now.   You don't have to believe me but I have no reason to lie.  

We all have different experiences and OH totally respects it if people want to keep their dogs out of the way and we frequently put him on the lead.  We also realise some people and dogs are scared of large dogs, we get it, and we act accordingly.  

He is not my choice of dog, not my dog at all in fact.  I would happily stick to cats, and a horse if I had the time, but there's someone else in my life who adores Danes and has had them before.

In addition, let me stress that he never even growls first.  And has never ever inflicted damage on any other dog, even those two times he's been bitten.  

Regretting posting as usual, I'll stick to offering advice on saddles. I don't have time to respond further to this having agonised over it for far too long.


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## Tiddlypom (5 December 2018)

sbloom said:



			I'll stick to offering advice on saddles. I don't have time to respond further to this having agonised over it for far too long.
		
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I think that might be best .


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## bonny (5 December 2018)

Tiddlypom said:



			I think that might be best .
		
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I think itâ€™s a shame that anyone should feel like they canâ€™t post on here, a range of opinions is what makes for an interesting debate, or should do.


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## Tiddlypom (5 December 2018)

I doubt that sbloom feels that she 'can't' post again on this thread. More that if you've already dug yourself a big hole, it's probably time to stop digging.


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## Blazingsaddles (5 December 2018)

sbloom said:



			The only difference with ours is that we have nowhere to run him off lead and Danes don't play with balls (on the whole) or otherwise play to exercise, they need walks to run.  Opinions on Danes seem to be polarised with half thinking they must be vicious and avoiding them/him, and the other half knowing they're dappy on the whole so don't bother watching their own dogs around him.  Hence he's been bitten (one tooth hole/mark each time) by two other dogs, both times they actively went for him, it wasn't any kind of 50-50 interaction.



We chat to the owners, all the time, we usually meet the same dogs, we watch their body language and act accordingly.  We avoid parks etc.  He does not bound right up to other dogs even if he IS off the lead and they are not, he has been trained not to, but ultimately occasionally he closes his ears to us, usually just standing and waiting for the other dogs that are approacing, often giving us time to get to him anyway.  He does not go bowling in, he reads the other dogs as much as we do.  If he did not then perhaps we'd have to put him on lead all the time, but it would be a damned miserable life for most Danes, and this Dane in particular.

I appreciate things can escalate, but they haven't in five years.  We see the same owners over and over.  There is one whose dog will not stop having a go (ie growling and barking and stressing) at ours, she walks three off lead, one very large lurcher type which is the problem dog, and they spoke and agreed not to walk at the same time as she walks at the same time and place every day.



Nicely edited, wishing I had written even more of an essay with even more detail.  These are the reasons, as I said, that I avoid walking him on my own.  He once pulled me off my feet, once.  He can't do so on the lead.  He weighs 12 stone.  However I do know that he is much less likely to react if I put a lead on rather than holding him by the collar, and as he seems to be slightly more defensive if it's me walking him alone I really don't walk him on my own any more. 

The places we walk are nearly all off lead for nearly all dogs in practice and most other people walk there (three locations) because of it. Once in a blue moon does an incident happen and never anything significant, he's 5 and has never harmed another dog or owner in any way.  He has a ton of dog walkers who know him from walks and love him, he's known as being very soft and gentle.  Doesn't mean we rest on our laurels.

I never said he was "likely to have an issue" with a dog on a lead.  He's not likely to, at all.  However, where we walk and in our experience, other dogs are more likely to get aggressive when they see him if THEY are on the lead meaning we are more likely to get some sort of reaction from him.  Everything stays much calmer if they meet off lead.  That is what I said, and stand by it.  Doesn't mean we just leave him off the lead willy nilly.



I overstated it saying "never", I was reacting specifically to the comment about the elderly couple who had had a thoroughly out of control/nuisance Irish Wolfhound, and now have a puppy of the same breed. I had always managed to hold ours, not that we often need to. I weigh about as much as he does.  Now that he has pulled me off my feet, ONCE, I am even more circumspect than I was.  I bet we've all seen labradors or similar that can pull someone off their feet in the "right" ie wrong circumstances.  Lots of older people have dogs they can hold, no problem, though I certainly know plenty that wouldn't be able to cope with the strength of their dog if anything did kick off.  I posted my experience as an illustration as to why older, less strong owners shouldn't take on giant breeds.  All dogs can be stronger than people think, so it's taking that into account when buying/adopting any kind of dog, and taking into account one's strength and fitness.


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I totally understand that you think my post is all wrong, but it's our genuine experience.

I should have quoted but can't find it now, in response to my OH trying to "tell" people to let their dogs off the lead.....I think we all exchange brief words with owners we pass on rural walks (ie not where there are tens of dogs at a park), and whether he suggests this entirely depends on the situation and the owners.  I wrote an essay as it was, and was only writing what we both observe, to go into every single detail was OTT.  Where he does suggest it, and as I say, it's far from every encounter, it works a treat.  With a couple of entrenched cases that he has got to know well he simply spends time chatting to the owner to let the dogs calm down a bit, and it does help for the next encounter and they've ended up with no issues if they do meet off lead now.   You don't have to believe me but I have no reason to lie. 

We all have different experiences and OH totally respects it if people want to keep their dogs out of the way and we frequently put him on the lead.  We also realise some people and dogs are scared of large dogs, we get it, and we act accordingly. 

He is not my choice of dog, not my dog at all in fact.  I would happily stick to cats, and a horse if I had the time, but there's someone else in my life who adores Danes and has had them before.

In addition, let me stress that he never even growls first.  And has never ever inflicted damage on any other dog, even those two times he's been bitten. 

Regretting posting as usual, I'll stick to offering advice on saddles. I don't have time to respond further to this having agonised over it for far too long.
		
Click to expand...

You have as much right to post as anyone else. I think some posters have been particularly judgemental to both you & Lev.


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## Rowreach (5 December 2018)

Blazingsaddles said:



			You have as much right to post as anyone else. I think some posters have been particularly judgemental to both you & Lev.
		
Click to expand...

You are quite right that everyone has a right to post and to have an opinion, even if it may be a judgemental one!

sbloom came back and expanded on her previous post, and was very gracious about the comments that were made about her first one.  No reason not to carry on posting.


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## SadKen (5 December 2018)

I for one have enjoyed reading this thread, it's been very interesting to hear different perspectives.

The forum would be very boring if we all agreed.

I think it's fine to disagree and even to be judgemental, as long as everyone is polite. I think that has been mostly the case on this thread and long may it continue.


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## Amymay (5 December 2018)

I agree SK.  It's certainly given me some pause for thought on my own actions and assumptions.


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## gunnergundog (5 December 2018)

Just a non-judgemental word of warning for all who allow their dogs out of sight when walking in public .

Firstly, a couple of dogs locally in the last six months have 'disappeared' whilst walking and bogging off in the woods.  It's rumoured, but not 100% proven, that they were friendly enough to approach/be enticed to approach a stranger and were put on a lead and whisked away, who knows to what fate.  

Secondly, I am aware of another instance where a dog was out of sight for some time (30 mins?) and encountered a family who then caught said dog and rang the police complaining that it had been attacking them and their child and that it was dangerous, they were fearful and showing pictures of alleged scratch marks.  No bites.  This is on-going.

Finally, I have myself caught an errant 'stray' dog that was harassing mine;  put it on a slip lead and walked around asking who owned it.  I knew damned well who it belonged to but the owner didn't have the balls to own up when I encountered him....what a faÃ§ade!  I had previously had words with this person, so dog warden was rung, dog was delivered to pound and he had to cough up to reclaim.  It appears to have taught him a lesson as said dog hasn't been seen off a long line since to the best of my knowledge - 2.5 years on.

If you love/value your dog, PLEASE don't let it out of sight in public places  - there are too many people who will deliver up dogs for baiting for dog fights or whatever, sell them in the local pub/motorway station for peanuts to who knows whom and god knows what else.

If you don't have a dog with a good recall there are secure canine fields that you can hire to let your dog have a good leg stretch in safety if you aren't lucky enough to own XXXX acres of ring fenced land yourself!  (I wish!)        http://securedogfield.co.uk/
This is just one website advertising such fields....there are plenty more, plus adverts on Facebook for those that dabble in such media.


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## TheresaW (5 December 2018)

Gunnergundog, my biggest fear is of my 2 getting stolen. Luna is never off lead unless in a secure field as her prey drive is just too great to risk it. Aled is let off, but is always within sight and just bumbles along in his own little world anyway.  Both of them however would be friendly to strangers and easily be taken away I think.


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## Cinnamontoast (5 December 2018)

An awful lot of terrier types were discovered on a site in Cambridgeshire a couple of weeks ago, along with various quads, horse boxes etc. I'm always very wary of my lot, a great many people stop to watch when we're out training. Mostly they're just interested because of the showy stuff they do, but I'm paranoid!


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