# What Are Your Opinions On Flash Nosebands?



## AprilBlue (2 January 2013)

flash nosebands are used to close the horses mouth because the horse is trying to avoid contact with the bit right? well i think that flash nosebands are harsh because the horse might open its mouth because of pain and people then put a flash on and clamp their mouth shut which causes even more pain?! if you really need to use a flash, can't you just use a bitless brdle instead? yes i know that bitless bridles can cause as much pain as ones with a bit in the wrong hands but i'm talking about people using it in the right hands.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0a-aV0Rsxmg
look especially at parts 1:22 - 2:30  and 6:18 - 7:18

what are your opinions on flashes?


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## Fallenrose (2 January 2013)

A lot of what you say could also apply to drop and grackle nosebands too - although they all act slightly differently. 

Different set ups work for different horses/riders - as long as horse is happy it shouldn't matter.

My mare came with a flash, and is quite strong (not got the softest mouth) but she is happy and confident. That said, I have now tried her without the flash and her jaw is instantly more relaxed. I am still at the stage of finding what bit and noseband combo she will be happiest in - would hope to get her into just a cavesson for flatwork with correct schooling. She does open her mouth without the flash but am hoping correct bit and more schooling will sort this. Would I try a bitless bridle? Yes - would be interesting to see how she goes!


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## Pearlsasinger (2 January 2013)

I wish people would take the time and trouble to find a bit that the horse is comfortable with - there are hundreds to choose from - instead of fastening the horse's mouth shut with any kind of noseband.  And as for RIs who recommend putting a flash etc on a horse - words fail me!  They should be helping riders to find out what the problem is, not going for a quick fix.


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## *hic* (2 January 2013)

AprilBlue said:



			flash nosebands are used to close the horses mouth because the horse is trying to avoid contact with the bit right? well i think that flash nosebands are harsh because the horse might open its mouth because of pain and people then put a flash on and clamp their mouth shut which causes even more pain?! if you really need to use a flash, can't you just use a bitless brdle instead? yes i know that bitless bridles can cause as much pain as ones with a bit in the wrong hands but i'm talking about people using it in the right hands.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0a-aV0Rsxmg
look especially at parts 1:22 - 2:30  and 6:18 - 7:18

what are your opinions on flashes?
		
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Flashes are probably the most used and most mis-used because they are fitted to nearly every bridle nowadays. If you need to a noseband to do that job you need to look at your riding and the horse's education and pick a more effective solution.

Glad to know you apparently have no objection to crank nose bands though which are also fitted to so many bridles now.


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## tessybear (2 January 2013)

I know someone who uses one because she thinks it looks nice and the bridle looks bare without it


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## wellsat (2 January 2013)

Personally I prefer to use a drop as I think they sit much more comfortably on the horse.


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## AdorableAlice (2 January 2013)

If a rumour I heard from a big saddlery manufacturer is correct, the crank will be a thing of the past soon under BD rules.

Buying a plain snaffle bridle is almost impossible now.  Everything seems to have flash nosebands, padded/raised noseband and or browbands or god forbid, sparkly bits.


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## MerrySherryRider (2 January 2013)

Don't use them. Better to find the cause rather than mask the effect.


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## PandorasJar (2 January 2013)

Used because it looks good is mad, likewise with most gadgets (as hic has pointed out re nosebands too....) however using with a reason in the right way and in the right hands I have no objection to as with any gadgets. Personally I wouldn't like to just stick one on without a real reason why... so I don't.


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## ladyt25 (2 January 2013)

Why do we have nosebands on bridles at all? Surely it is only for looks anyway? If a flash is no fitted tightly then why can't somewhere wear one because they like the look of it? No different to somewhere wearing a cavesson noseband.

Take them all off! 

For the record, I ride my horse in  a cavesson bridle that has a detachable flash which I only out on for jumping and xc. Why? Well, because little horsie decides he would rather like to run and lean on my and when jumping and in order to do this he is opening his mouth and evading (or trying to) as he thinks he knows best. It's all very well saying you should be educating and schooling your horse to prevent this but, in reality, having control of an excited horse when galloping round XC you sometimes need a little bit more help than schooling alone can give.

Mine does not appear to be in any sort of pain or discomfort - I can't reallt aks himot scarify this but, the fact he still does the job and can still eat with the bridle on would suggest he is ok!


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## Littlelegs (2 January 2013)

I don't like them. Even if there is no pain or training issue, & its simply a horse that gets over excited xc or similar & opens its mouth to tank off, a drop is better. To use a flash, the cavesson part has to be fitted tightly, or the flash will pull it down where it joins & put the pressure in one place. So a flash restricts the horse all the time, regardless of how loose you think you fit it. At least with a drop it only comes into use when the horse opens its jaw wide, & it can open its mouth to a normal degree. Ime if you put a flash on most horses they'll object to the restriction just because its there. But many see their horse trying to fight a flash as evidence the horse needs it. And as already said, people should be looking for the actual cause, not just physically preventing the symptoms. It's one thing using a drop or even a grackle for exciting activities such as jumping or hunting when training has been ruled out & its purely excitement, & another entirely to use a grackle on a horse unhappy with the contact for whatever reason. And I hate the way they come as standard on so many bridles.


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## YorksG (2 January 2013)

The thing that struck me about the video was that the man doing the work stated that he had sore fingers after riding a strong horse, what a shame that he and plenty of others, haven't been taught to use their seat to ride with, rather than their hands. Agree with the angel-little-legs, much prefer a drop.


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## PandorasJar (2 January 2013)

ladyt25 said:



			If a flash is no fitted tightly then why can't somewhere wear one because they like the look of it?
		
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The ones I've seen for looks are done up just as tightly as the draw reins


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## Springy (2 January 2013)

sports horse has a flash rather than grackle as he opens his mouth.... dentist says he crosses jaw and needs a grackle but we try not to use one with him unless he is hunting .... cob has cavesson noseband no flash.....
if the tack fits properly can't see the problem.
Always start with least ie caveson and snaffle and work from there ....


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## Littlelegs (2 January 2013)

How do you not fit a flash tightly? The cavesson still has to be pulled tight, & even if you then leave the flash strap loose-ish its still restrictive. And the actual flash can't be left too loose or it would fall from the chin groove.


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## Maesfen (2 January 2013)

I think they are nothing more than a fashion accessory and do neither one job or the other.  A drop noseband is able to be fitted properly and so is a cavesson but something that's between the two will never be able to be fitted so it is as comfortable as either of the others for the horse.
I'd cut the lot off.


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## Springy (2 January 2013)

you leave 2 fingers sideways between their mouth and the flash..... then it shouldn't be too tight ......


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## indie999 (2 January 2013)

Mine came with one and I couldnt work out what it did exactly or why he had one it looked the part? As was pointed out to me people like gadgets so I took it off and someone bought me a nice old fashioned plain noseband etc.  Horses never use to have these kind of things and dont know why they do now. In fact I think the flash was quite restrictive and unkind.


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## chestnut cob (2 January 2013)

Surely it's down to what suits the individual horse?

I used to be quite anti flashes but the new horse goes well in one (have tried every other type, including plain cavesson).  I know enough to know whether my horse is happy or not.  There is nothing cruel about it, I'm not using it because it looks nice or just because it came with the bridle.  I'm using it because it serves a purpose, and eventually I'm hoping I will be able to go back to a plain cavesson.  But for now, the horse needs a flash and works well in one.


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## Littlelegs (2 January 2013)

But that's my point springy, the cavesson part still needs to be pulled tight or the flash, even with two fingers width under, just pulls the front of the cavesson part down where it attaches.


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## Shandi.4.eva (2 January 2013)

In a way, you are right, if your horse suddenly begins putting his/her head up, the you must assume he/she is In pain, if the horse isn't in pain, then a flash nose and is fine, my old horse was a nightmare for gaping and then bolting off, so we put a flash on her, she was like a different pony! Like all pieces of tack, when uses carefully and politely and never in a way of punishment, the flash is fine.


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## Pale Rider (2 January 2013)

I thought flash nosebands had been done quite recently.

Just to reiterate then, they are the work of the devil. Only used by unsympathetic, heavy handed numpties who shouldn't be within a mile of a horse.


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## Clodagh (2 January 2013)

I hate them, I had a strong mare years ago and used a drop on her sometimes but a flash is awful.


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## Springy (2 January 2013)

that's a sweeping statement ...... what about the people in the Olympic team who used then.....


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## montysmum1 (2 January 2013)

I personally can't stand them to be honest. I'd rather go back to basics and school my horses to be relaxed and responsive in a snaffle and cavesson noseband. I can honestly say that this method has worked in all of the ex-racers and natives I have reschooled, backed and trained. It's no 'quick fix' though, which I think is sadly what some people see a flash/drop/grakle to be.


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## Springy (2 January 2013)

Heavy handed nudity...... I think not...... 
http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=ol...X0_4DYBQ&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=320&bih=508#i=23


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## honey-bees (2 January 2013)

I think they are used incorrectly. 
I was always taught a flash is there, not to stop the horse opening his mouth, but to prevent a horse from opening his mouth too far - which is a difference; but is often seen clamping the mouth shut. 

Agree with what others have already said - prefer a drop to a flash.


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## paddi22 (2 January 2013)

I never understand the hysteria about flashes- they have a useful place in my riding kit.

I don't advocate people having them tightened up willy nilly for everything.

I'd echo the poster above. A lot of fantastic riders in the olympics had them, so they obviously  believe they are needed in some situations.

I have a x country horse who is perfect going solo round a course, but turns into a tank if he is doing pairs etc. I'd much rather put a flash on him in that situation and get us both safely round the course. It's not a schooling thing, he is perfect when schooling, but in the heat of competing with another horse his reason just goes out the window. I have no qualms in using a flash in that situation and then it happily goes back in the tack box the rest of the time.


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## MerrySherryRider (2 January 2013)

Springy said:



			that's a sweeping statement ...... what about the people in the Olympic team who used then.....
		
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Interestingly, outside competition were the rules make nosebands complusory, some of our most revered international riders do not use a flash because they do not use a noseband to attach one to.
 There is a school of thought that recognises light hands and training enables the horse to relax its jaw and soften better without a 'mouthshutter', a German term.


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## Wimbles (2 January 2013)

They have their place when used correctly, like most other things but it does irritate me to death the it's so hard to find a nice bridle that doesn't have a flash or has cheek pieces that do up on the outside (another pet hate of mine, silly I know).

Nosebands in general irritate a couple of my horses so when schooling/hacking we tend to go commando!!!


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## emma.is (2 January 2013)

I'd rather find the problem than mask it but each to their own. I've ridden two horses (not my own) I wouldn'f of liked to get on without a flash.


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## Littlelegs (2 January 2013)

I don't get this whole 'if fitted correctly & used sympathetically' business. I could stick unnecessary tack items on my mare & used correctly she wouldn't know they were there because she doesn't do what they prevent. Eg holding draw reins loosely, using a drop or standing martingale, riding in a de-gogue or strong bit. Provided I ride correctly & my mare is her normal well behaved self, I know for a fact she wouldn't even register most well fitted gadgets because she wouldn't be restricted by them. But, even before mounting the simple act of fitting a flash is restrictive. And as I've used her to briefly demonstrate in the past to fans of flashes, she'll fight it just because she can feel it restricting her. Other horses more used to being restricted under saddle or more submissive in temperament may not fight it, but that doesn't make it ok imo.


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## Shysmum (2 January 2013)

I've never really "got" this strapping the mouth shut. Doesn't trouble with the bit indicate it's either not the right bit, or trouble with the mouth ?


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## Hippona (2 January 2013)

Pearlsacarolsinger said:



			I wish people would take the time and trouble to find a bit that the horse is comfortable with - there are hundreds to choose from - instead of fastening the horse's mouth shut with any kind of noseband.  And as for RIs who recommend putting a flash etc on a horse - words fail me!  They should be helping riders to find out what the problem is, not going for a quick fix.
		
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Agree.

Trouble is.....so many bridles seem to come with flash as standard...


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## Springy (2 January 2013)

neither it stops them opening it too far (not not at all) to evade the bit... not every horse needs one but some do and some only do in certain situations.....


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## *hic* (2 January 2013)

The_angel_littlelegs said:



			I don't get this whole 'if fitted correctly & used sympathetically' business. I could stick unnecessary tack items on my mare & used correctly she wouldn't know they were there because she doesn't do what they prevent. Eg holding draw reins loosely, using a drop or standing martingale, riding in a de-gogue or strong bit. Provided I ride correctly & my mare is her normal well behaved self, I know for a fact she wouldn't even register most well fitted gadgets because she wouldn't be restricted by them. But, even before mounting the simple act of fitting a flash is restrictive. And as I've used her to briefly demonstrate in the past to fans of flashes, she'll fight it just because she can feel it restricting her. Other horses more used to being restricted under saddle or more submissive in temperament may not fight it, but that doesn't make it ok imo.
		
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But that is because you understand how to fit them in order for them to function as the inventor intended. The vast majority of people, as demonstrated further up the thread, have no idea that the cavesson should not be pulled down so that viewed from the front the whole thing looks like a grackle!


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## Landcruiser (2 January 2013)

Most western horses don't have nosebands at all, and they are some of the most relaxed, compliant horses you can get. Less is more.


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## Theocat (2 January 2013)

I don't have objection in principle to a noseband that prevents the horse from opening its mouth too far (assuming not in pain, schooling in progress yadda yadda), but as others have said the design of a flash is rubbish - you need the cavesson part far too tight to keep it in place.  Use a drop or a grackle, depending on the horse, if you need to use anything!


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## Shantara (2 January 2013)

Hippona said:



			Agree.

Trouble is.....so many bridles seem to come with flash as standard...
		
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This bloomin' annoys me. 
I would LOVE a bridle without a flash, but I can't seem to find one. I just take the noseband off now, he seems to like it that way anyway.


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## 0310Star (2 January 2013)

My horse has one. She only wears it in "exciting" situations as I cannot hold her without. She is ridden in a snaffle and caveson 99% of the time and is perfectly behaved but as soon as we are in the competition atmosphere she know's exactly how to grab and run, admitedly she knows how to do this all of the time but in everyday situations she would not do it. When we go out, the excitement takes over! 
Although I would rather she didn't wear it as I dont particularly like it, so I am going to have a look at using a drop and if that fails getting a stronger bit for going out.


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## Pascal96 (2 January 2013)

I'm another one who finds it annoying that you can't find a decent bridle without a flash noseband.  I don't use one on either of my horses and they have never needed one even though my big mare was wearing a flash when I tried her.  When I asked the owner about it she said she didn't need it but she put it on so as not to loose it!  I do like to use a cavesson noseband because I like the look of the horses wearing it but I am very careful to fit it correctly so it doesn't cause any discomfort.


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## sandy3924 (2 January 2013)

From the horses point of view - 'I have a metal bit put in my mouth, it has a joint in the middle and every few seconds the joint is pushed up into the roof of my mouth.  The metal is pulled down onto my gums and squashes my tongue.  I open my mouth to try and avoid the pain inflicted - so next time they put the metal bit in my mouth they strap my mouth so tightly shut I can't open it at all.  Then they pull on the metal  bit and the pain is horrific on the roof of my mouth and my gums and my tongue.  There is no escape. And they call themselves horse lovers. They should be ashamed.'


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## thespanishmane (2 January 2013)

Aaagghh! 
Needle in haystack to find decent quality bridle without a flash! both my horses don't have them on, but the bridles do!  the Spanish one has a major strop when I thought I might give it a go as he was seriously opening his mouth (flatly refused to move) & the ex-racer pulled 'cow chewing cud' faces.  I only used it as his previous owner advised me to use a grackle or a flash, but I took it off and no more funny faces!

As for the crank nosebands- I have those as well- again came as a no choice with the bridle BUT you don't have to do them up tightly!  I really hate to see the poor horses face bulging out over and under the noseband.  What on earth does it achieve?


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## Roasted Chestnuts (2 January 2013)

I prefer a grackle to a flash.


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## Littlelegs (2 January 2013)

Lol hic, the grakle effect is so true.


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## mrhsaddler (2 January 2013)

The Flash noseband is a hybrid of the drop and cavesson nosebands, it was invented solely for the purpose of being able to use a standing martingale with a drop noseband, as very few horses now use a standing martingale there is no need for a flash noseband, and a drop should be used intead if thats what the horse needs.


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## tallyho! (2 January 2013)

So few people these days know what the tack is even for never mind use it properly...


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## Polos (2 January 2013)

I ride my horse in a flash but the actual flash strap and noseband are incredibly loose they serve no real function. I could probably manage without both tbh but I haven't tried riding him without yet. 

I inherited a lovely keiffer dressage bridle but I never use it as it's a crank noseband. The only time I rode him in it he was awful as he really hated it. I never use it ao I don't know why I still have it!


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## Oldenburg27 (2 January 2013)

My boy has a flash, When i tried him he was in one, so that's why I still use it. Also he has everything checked ie back, teeth etc every 6 months (other than his teeth every 12 month's) I dont like drop nosebands


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## Elsiecat (2 January 2013)

Some of our bridles have them on, some don't. 
I've bought a few very pretty bridles with flash nosebands on as standard. So what I do is put them on the loosest setting. Makes no difference to my horsey. She lets you know if she doesn't like something!!! 

I hate seeing horses who clearly don't work well/like the bit they have in so the owner clamps their mouth shut  It's all about trial and error!


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## frannieuk (2 January 2013)

I use one if I feel it's needed. I make sure that the cavesson part of the noseband is snug (but not cinched tight) and use the flash to prevent the horse opening too far, not prevent it opening it at all. My big mare doesn't need one, but my 3yo who has just been started on the lunge appears to have a very mobile tongue and immediately figured out how open her mouth to put it over the bit. As the bit was correctly fitted in her mouth, and rather than haul her lips round her ears, I put a flash strap on (fitted to allow a comfortable one finger under it) which stops her opening her mouth to the extent she can get her tongue waggling. I'll give it a few days with it on and then try taking it off - if she carries on, I might keep the flash as she seems happy in it, or I might try a drop - depends how she feels! 

In short, I think most tack has a place and can be used effectively in the right situation and in the right hands. It is a shame that so many bridles come with flash attachments but plain nosebands are out there if you look.


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## JenJ (2 January 2013)

frannieuk said:



			It is a shame that so many bridles come with flash attachments but plain nosebands are out there if you look.
		
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Every time there's a thread on flashes (which is regularly!) lots of people trot out the line that it's 'impossible' to find a plain cavesson bridle, as 'every' bridle has a flash nowadays. 

Sorry, but that's absolute rubbish. How hard are you guys looking? Yes, a few times I've gone onto some posh website and seen a expensive brand with a selection of 3 or 4 non cavesson bridles, but the majority of online tackshops, and the majority of brands, offer a cavesson bridle.

Example, Equestrian Clearance...

http://www.equestrianclearance.com/matchmakers/caldene-black-label-plain-snaffle-bridle/index.html
http://www.equestrianclearance.com/westgate_efi/mark_todd_bridles/index.html#gallery
http://www.equestrianclearance.com/stubben/royal-161/index.html#gallery
http://www.equestrianclearance.com/matchmakers/caldene_plain_snaffle_bridles/index.html#gallery
http://www.equestrianclearance.com/-just_togs/gfs_plain_snaffle_bridle/index.html
http://www.equestrianclearance.com/westgate_efi/jhl-bridles/index.html
http://www.equestrianclearance.com/westgate_efi/jhl-pro-bridles/index.html
http://www.equestrianclearance.com/stubben/wicklow-bridle-3200/index.html
http://www.equestrianclearance.com/matchmakers/sovereign_lincoln_bridle/index.html
http://www.equestrianclearance.com/matchmakers/sovereign_cambridge_bridle/index.html
http://www.equestrianclearance.com/matchmakers/caldene-patent-snaffle-bridle/index.html
http://www.equestrianclearance.com/-_product_packs/k_ty_raised_cavesson_bridle/index.html
http://www.equestrianclearance.com/-_product_packs/k-ty-endeavour-hunt-bridle/index.html
http://www.equestrianclearance.com/-just_togs/gfs_show_bridle/index.html
http://www.equestrianclearance.com/ekkia/cortina-leather-bridles/index.html
http://www.equestrianclearance.com/weatherbeeta/new-kincade-bridles/index.html
http://www.equestrianclearance.com/weatherbeeta/_collegiate_cavesson_nosebands/index.html

These took just a couple of mouse clicks to find!


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## *hic* (2 January 2013)

Ha, JenJ, I was going to say that. I had a quick count up and of the 20 bridles "owned" by my 7 horses not one has a flash noseband. We have cavessons, drops, a couple of grackles but no flash nosebands in use - we don't even have any that have had the flash strap taken off. I do, in addition to that lot, own a crank noseband bridle and also one with a cavesson and flash but they are not used by any of my horses and I must get round to selling them.

So really it's not that difficult to find bridles without flashes and cranks.


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## Littlelegs (2 January 2013)

Doesn't matter if bridles do come with them, there's no law saying you can't just take it off. And if you don't want the silly attachment on the noseband, either chop it yourself or get a saddler to remove it properly. My issue with many bridles coming with them isn't a purchasing problem, just that it encourages numpties to use them.


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## frannieuk (2 January 2013)

JenJ said:



			Every time there's a thread on flashes (which is regularly!) lots of people trot out the line that it's 'impossible' to find a plain cavesson bridle, as 'every' bridle has a flash nowadays. 

Sorry, but that's absolute rubbish. How hard are you guys looking? Yes, a few times I've gone onto some posh website and seen a expensive brand with a selection of 3 or 4 non cavesson bridles, but the majority of online tackshops, and the majority of brands, offer a cavesson bridle.

Example, Equestrian Clearance...


These took just a couple of mouse clicks to find!
		
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That was my point....!!


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## JenJ (2 January 2013)

frannieuk said:



			That was my point....!!
		
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I know, I was agreeing with you 

Just thought I'd throw some links in too...


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## tallyho! (2 January 2013)

Just doing my usual off-shoot....

Why are English bridles so damned BORING!!!???


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## indie999 (2 January 2013)

Nah said:



			This bloomin' annoys me. 
I would LOVE a bridle without a flash, but I can't seem to find one. I just take the noseband off now, he seems to like it that way anyway.
		
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I did this then someone treated me to a jeffries plain old cavesson. I did at one stage remove the noseband altogether, just to get rid of the darn thing. Mine was trying to open his gob and I felt he was trying to yawn and couldnt mouth the bit that well..the flash just felt wrong and it was restrictive, and seemed to annoy him. Said horse was very hard in mouth too and it was a kind decision for him to have it removed. Just seemed happier without it. But try Jeffries.


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## Ibblebibble (2 January 2013)

I don't have a strong opinion on most tack, but i am of the opinion that unless someone has ridden my horse in various situations who are they to judge what tack she wears and how effective it is
A very similar discussion on FB only yesterday about 'inappropriate tack and bits' how can anyone judge what is inappropriate for any horse unless they have ridden it?! 

i tried my big girl in a bitless, she hated it.


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## Tern (2 January 2013)

I don't actually have a problem with Flashes as long as they are used correctly - like grackles too. A friend of mine uses one because her horse bites so when an instructor comes to talk to her - it's not the best if he bites them... But he happy in it. I have to say i hate Drop Nosebands - they annoy me of how some put it so tight.


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## Spring Feather (2 January 2013)

Ibblebibble said:



			I don't have a strong opinion on most tack, but i am of the opinion that unless someone has ridden my horse in various situations who are they to judge what tack she wears and how effective it is
A very similar discussion on FB only yesterday about 'inappropriate tack and bits' how can anyone judge what is inappropriate for any horse unless they have ridden it?! 

i tried my big girl in a bitless, she hated it.
		
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I have to say I agree with the above.  I have no beef with whatever kind of tack anyone uses for their horses so long as they use it responsibly.  My horses are all ridden in snaffles with either cavesson nosebands or no nosebands.  I own flashes and martingales and almost every other piece of tack (just like everyone else does) but I rarely use any of them.  I have one  horses who is ridden in a running martingale because she's the only one who needs one.  If however one of mine went better being ridden in a grackle, flash, crank or a stronger bit or martingales etc then that's what I'd ride it in.


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## frannieuk (2 January 2013)

JenJ said:



			I know, I was agreeing with you 

Just thought I'd throw some links in too...
		
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Ah, sorry - read too quickly!


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## MerrySherryRider (2 January 2013)

Using a flash because that's what it was wearing when I bought him/her, just highlights the problem. Tack should be re evaluated regularly as a normal part of training. Nothing stays the same for ever. 

Using a flash because it came with the bridle, is a strange one. The flash is not sewn to the bridle, it slips out. If the keeper looks unsightly, pay a fiver and get the saddler to whip it off. You don't have to use it.

I'm not surprised that so many people need flashes to keep their horse's mouth shut. Looking around most UK livery yards, people who can actually ride without hanging onto the reins like a Woodentop are a rarity.


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## Dumbo (2 January 2013)

AprilBlue said:



			if you really need to use a flash, can't you just use a bitless brdle instead?
		
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My horse has always fought to open his mouth and everyone at the yard tells me to put the flash on really tight.
I've finally listened to him and ordered my bitless bridle yesterday! So excited as I've been interested for a while now but been deterred by friends who are all about harsh bits!
Riding in a headcollar tomorrow as he is really good with nose pressure from the ground


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## avthechav (2 January 2013)

horserider said:



			I'm not surprised that so many people need flashes to keep their horse's mouth shut. Looking around most UK livery yards, people who can actually ride without hanging onto the reins like a Woodentop are a rarity.
		
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LOL !!  ...Not sure what a Woodentop is but this does sound like a nice sweeping generalisation!!!- Maybe people not on livery yards ride better then  ?


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## Lego (2 January 2013)

I think that flashes etc have a place, but as others have said - you really need to know what action the noseband has and then decide what it appropriate... 

I was really surprised when I went to a dressage lesson with a fairly high-level judge and trainer, and I had to explain why I was using a drop rather than a flash...her response was to say that she'd never used one and they were likely out of fashion for a reason...then crank it up a few holes! The majority of the others on my yard don't get the drop, and most of them ride in flashes...

My lad needed something to start with as his mouth was flapping in the breeze and his tongue was everywhere despite many dental checks and types of bit, so the consensus was that he just needed to learn that he wasn't going to be hauled on and keep his mouth shut! We've gone from needing a firmly fitted drop or flash at all times, to no noseband at all for schooling, and either a cavesson or loose drop for hacking and jumping, depending on how fast we're expecting to go... All in the same bits


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## MerrySherryRider (2 January 2013)

avthechav said:



			LOL !!  ...Not sure what a Woodentop is but this does sound like a nice sweeping generalisation!!!- Maybe people not on livery yards ride better then  ?
		
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Sadly, I don't think it is a sweeping generalisation. The standard of riding in the UK is pretty dire. Whenever I see a decent rider, I always look twice because its so good to see.


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## charlie76 (2 January 2013)

Gosh,  how nice it would be to be a perfect rider on a perfect horse with no schooling issues!

Some horses have schooling issues that can be helped by different bits or nose bands,  obviously none of these horses belong to people on here as you all ride in a perfect world!


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## Tinsel Town (2 January 2013)

I used to use one with spot, he was so strong and would get the bit between his teeth. He was ridden in a Pelham. 
I don't with Leo, he isn't strong and is ridden in a snaffle. 
I don't mind flashes, however looking at some of the pictures from the eventing at the Olympics, nearly all the horses had flashes and it wasn't a pretty sight.....


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## Kadastorm (2 January 2013)

Shoot me now, i have my 5yr old in a flash! 
Why? Because he is a cranky, lazy git who will evade the bit by opening his gob as wide as possible or try and put his tongue over the bit. 
it is correctly fitted, does not clamp his gob shut and he is working well in it. As soon as he is ready, it will come off again but for now its not causing him any harm.


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## LOA90 (2 January 2013)

I have no problem with flashes but like all tack they are only as good/useful as the person using it. BUT I was told to put a flash on my youngster as he opened his mouth when being ridden, he hadn't been broken long & was well behaved otherwise, I (luckily) ignored this person. My horse had his routine dental a little while later, with his mouth clamped open it became apparent the site of his wolf teeth extraction (before he was backed) had not healed correctly & had formed proud flesh, he was opening his mouth to avoid the contact. I felt terrible as he was incredibly honest being only 4yo and competing at shows etc I thought he was just a mouthy youngster. 
Had I clamped his mouth shut the outcome may not have been so great. 
ALWAYS check for a reason FIRST.


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## spotty_pony (2 January 2013)

IMO if it works and the horse is comfortable then there's no problem. I hunt my Appy in a flash so that I have brakes as he likes to try and cross his jaw and open his mouth which makes him stronger. With the help of a flash I can happily carry on hunting him in a snaffle too without having to resort to a harsher bit.


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## avthechav (2 January 2013)

horserider said:



			Sadly, I don't think it is a sweeping generalisation. The standard of riding in the UK is pretty dire. Whenever I see a decent rider, I always look twice because its so good to see.
		
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...seriously!! I must be lucky around here then, whenever I go out, even at my lowly level I see an occasional jockey with poor skills, a larger number of riders like myself who dont hinder but could be a lot more effective, and I always see several who are lovely to watch and really enjoy watching these people- maybe my standards/ expectations are too low or yours are to high?


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## Littlelegs (2 January 2013)

I don't think anyone is claiming to be perfect, its just drops or even grakles can do the same as a flash, without any of the disadvantages. And horserider has a point. There seems to be ever increasing numbers of riders who's first thought is 'how can I stop my horse being naughty' rather than 'what am I doing that either causes or exacerbates my horses behavior' followed by 'what can I do to rectify the situation training wise'. Maybe years ago people were just as bad, but with less gadgets easily available they were the last resort, not the first.


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## Tickles (2 January 2013)

Flashes are excellent for strapping a horse's mouth closed onto an unsuitable or poorly used bit.

They are one of the few bits of tack I almost always try to remove when riding other people's horses.

I'm not an excellent, or even particularly good, rider but I'd rather go more cautiously than force a horse into something painful / doing something I'm not a competent enough rider to ask and school for correctly.


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## ClobellsandBaubles (3 January 2013)

Theocat said:



			but as others have said the design of a flash is rubbish - you need the cavesson part far too tight to keep it in place.  Use a drop or a grackle, depending on the horse, if you need to use anything!
		
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mrhsaddler said:



			The Flash noseband is a hybrid of the drop and cavesson nosebands, it was invented solely for the purpose of being able to use a standing martingale with a drop noseband, as very few horses now use a standing martingale there is no need for a flash noseband, and a drop should be used intead if thats what the horse needs.
		
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The_angel_littlelegs said:



			I don't think anyone is claiming to be perfect, its just drops or even grakles can do the same as a flash, without any of the disadvantages.
		
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My thoughts exactly, it seems people just use an inferior product that is less comfortable because it is more readily available and that is what they see everyone else using. Easiest option maybe  Don't flashes inhibit breathing much more than say a drop or grackle?


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## tallyho! (3 January 2013)

Wy are people quick to strap the head down rather than work on the "engine" department... We're most riding problems stem from?


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## amandap (3 January 2013)

Here's an interesting take on flashes. I'm sure it's been posted before but is appropriate here I think.
http://www.sustainabledressage.net/tack/bridle.php#flash


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## Pinkvboots (3 January 2013)

Hate them never used them never needed to, and it is annoying that nearly every single bridle made has one.


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## MerrySherryRider (3 January 2013)

charlie76 said:



			Gosh,  how nice it would be to be a perfect rider on a perfect horse with no schooling issues!

Some horses have schooling issues that can be helped by different bits or nose bands,  obviously none of these horses belong to people on here as you all ride in a perfect world!
		
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The question is more, how do you resolve schooling issues ? There are two basic approaches to training problems. One is to look at the reason a horse responds as it does and the other is to mask the problem and tell the horse to shut up and stop complaining.

Neither requires perfection, but the first approach needs thought, patience  and observation.


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## moana (3 January 2013)

I suspect the majority are used because they came with the bride, but why do bridles more often come with rather than without a flash? Probably created by demand at some time in the past. No doubt a few horses need one. I never use nose bands of any kind, with the exception of on the bitless bridle (which would not work without one!).
I did use a drop noseband for a time on a problem mare, who had been badly trained, but only for a month and she now wears no noseband.

My opinion? Take it off and throw it away, along with most others except the cavesson if wanted for pure looks.


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## PandorasJar (3 January 2013)

charlie76 said:



			Gosh,  how nice it would be to be a perfect rider on a perfect horse with no schooling issues!

Some horses have schooling issues that can be helped by different bits or nose bands,  obviously none of these horses belong to people on here as you all ride in a perfect world!
		
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If I was a perfect rider I'd be happy using most gadgets. The reason I steer clear of the majority is that I'm *not* a perfect rider


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## Pale Rider (3 January 2013)

charlie76 said:



			Gosh,  how nice it would be to be a perfect rider on a perfect horse with no schooling issues!

Some horses have schooling issues that can be helped by different bits or nose bands,  obviously none of these horses belong to people on here as you all ride in a perfect world!
		
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I'm certainly not a perfect rider, don't think I know one, but, I don't make the horse suffer because of the shortcomings I have.


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## paddi22 (3 January 2013)

I do understand how schooling can fix the majority of issues, but what would you do with my horse, who is perfect 99% of the time and only has an issue if he is out and his bloods up, and he's doing pairs with another horse? 

He is very bold, brave and loves to be in front. Putting a flash on him going round a course keeps us both controlled and safer. It allows me to keep him in gentle snaffle as he doesn't need a stronger bit. It's not done up too tight, and he only feels it when he goes to cross his jaw. 

There is no way i can school him out of getting excited at a team chase. I don't believe it's possible. He is a brave horse who absolutely loves it and his blood gets up with the excitement of shows. He is a gent and can be ridden bitless the rest of the time. I would put my life saving on ANY rider not being able to solve this problem through schooling


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## Four Seasons (3 January 2013)

Flash nosebands are as harsh as any noseband.... it all depends on how tight you fasten it. Flash nosebands are handy for young horses, who will want to avoid contact with the bit. A flash noseband can restrict it and help it accept the bit. Offcourse you don't tighten it so that the horse can;t even breathe anymore... I use the 2 finger rule.

And nosebands are there for a reason.... if a horse falls, the rider automaticlly pulls on the mouth, you can't avoid it. Therefore, horse opens mouth.... now if there wasn't a noseband, the horse would have it's mouth wide open and there is then a possibility of breaking it's jaw. The noseband stops that from happening (offcourse the horse would have to falls face down first for this to happen).


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## Littlelegs (3 January 2013)

Paddi22, I would use a drop. While the flash might not be tight, the cavesson will be or it will just be pulled down. And if really necessary a grackle. At least with either of those you don't have the issue of the tight fitting cavesson. And drops in particular allow the horse to open their mouth in the normal way, but not to the point of evasion.


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## paddi22 (3 January 2013)

It sounds bizarre but the drop didn't work well on him. I'm not sure what he tries to do with his mouth (thinking now i should video it) but he goes much better in flash then drop. I understand the action of them drop, but for him it wasn't as effective as flash for some bizarre reason


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## Littlelegs (3 January 2013)

Drops don't really prevent jaw crossing, just mouth opening too much, which might be why it didn't work. Have you tried a grackle?


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## Springy (3 January 2013)

as I've said one of ours has a flash the other doesn't...... 

however its fitted correctly it doesn't pull his noseband down and it isn't tightened so he can't breath or open his mouth at all. he is in a neue schule baucher bit.... 

how can you generalize and it its because we can't ride or he isn't schooled properly other his bit is wrong? he is checked every 6 months by a dentist and his back and skeleton and muscles by a mictomeny specialist his tack is checked and fitted too him..... 

just coz you don't like them doesn't mean they are wrong .... 

the Olympic team aren't numpties and can ride to a high standard

fair enough have your own opinions but please dont generalise

I can see your point when they arent fitted properly but thats the same with baddly fitting saddles and bits and other tack.....


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## paddi22 (3 January 2013)

No, never tried a grackle. I have never used one before, was unsure of fitting it correctly and have noone to double check i have it right, so i steered clear! I always had assumed (probably incorrectly) they were harsher than a flash?


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## Littlelegs (3 January 2013)

Imo they aren't, there's no tight cavesson part & the pressure is more even. Is there anyone you know from team chasing who would have a look for you, or ask someone you know at a show to look while they are there?


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## chestnut cob (3 January 2013)

A question for all of those people advocating drop nosebands for exciting situations (eg, the team chaser above)... would any of you have liked to take my big, strong 17hh IDx hunter out hunting for the day in just a loose drop?!  This horse schooled at home/DR in a drop (or plain cavesson), SJ in a drop, went XC in a grackle, hacked with a cavesson/drop or even no noseband sometimes.  He was very well schooled to the seat and voice but out hunting, you could have put Philippe Karl on him and he'd have bogged off.  I actually did take him hunting in a drop once.. Had absolutely no control whatsoever, overtook everyone inc. Master several times and the horse was generally foul all day long.  Unfortunately we don't live in an ideal world and sometimes horses need different nosebands.  That particular horse hunted in a cavesson and flash.  I'm 5ft4 and he was 17hh, weighing prob 750kg at least.  Safety is more important that anything else, especially on the hunting field, and I need to know I can stop.  In a flash I had a horse who I could control.

And the horse certainly never suffered for being in a flash every couple of weeks for hunting.  The day after a meet he'd go back in his French link and drop, hacking on the buckle end.  He never once got upset at having it done up.  He didn't rub his mouth, it didn't restrict his breathing and he suffered no adverse effects.  That horse lived to hunt and using a flash rather than a lovely, loose drop or similar made it a much more pleasant day for both of us.

My youngster goes in a loose flash - I tried others first but he detested a drop and I wasn't keen on the grackle.  It serves a purpose and will eventually come off, but it's a means to an end ATM.


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## Spring Feather (3 January 2013)

TBPH I put my horses in whatever tack they go best in.  I don't stand around watching and making judgements on others who use different tack.  As I said before, all of my horses are ridden in either cavessons or no nosebands however I have every kind of noseband available (collected over half a century lol) and IF a horse of mine went better in a flash or a crank or a drop then that's what it would be ridden in.  For those people on here who use flash nosebands (and I completely agree that it is difficult to find a QUALITY master saddler who makes bridles without flash nosebands any more) so long as you're fitting it correctly then it's your business and no-one elses.


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## Littlelegs (3 January 2013)

Chestnutcob, same as above, I would have used a grackle. 
  And for the record, having an opinion on flashes in response to a thread asking for opinions, is very different to standing round slagging of peoples choices of tack in real life, or randomly approaching them to criticize & demand they explain their decision.


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## chestnut cob (3 January 2013)

The_angel_littlelegs said:



			Chestnutcob, same as above, I would have used a grackle. 
  And for the record, having an opinion on flashes in response to a thread asking for opinions, is very different to standing round slagging of peoples choices of tack in real life, or randomly approaching them to criticize & demand they explain their decision.
		
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I tried a grackle.  Several times.  That particular horse is a big, strong and very experienced hunter who knows and just wants to get on with the job.  You can't take a horse like that who has already been on the hunting field for 10 years and start trying to turn it into a classically trained horse who can be controlled by your breathing (I know I'm exaggerating the point here for effect but it illustrates the point).  Conversely, my new horse is the most beautifully mannered little hunter who I've taken out in a Happy Mouth French link and reasonably loose flash.  He can be a little strong early in the day but he wouldn't dream of pulling, taking off or any of the nonsense the big one got up to.  He goes in a loose flash though because he HATES a drop.

At no point did I suggest you would randomly approach people to question their tack choices... so I'm confused by that comment.


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## Littlelegs (3 January 2013)

Sorry, that wasn't aimed at you chestnutcob, it was a general comment as a few times people have posted remarks about it being nobody else's business what tack people use.


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## MerrySherryRider (3 January 2013)

Spring Feather said:



			I don't stand around watching and making judgements on others who use different tack.
		
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Neither do I but when the thread asks for opinions, surely, the point is to give an opinion even if it differs from someone else.
 I wouldn't dream of telling anyone in RL what I thought about their tack unless asked. Forums are for an exchange of ideas and experiences.


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## Sol (4 January 2013)

I don't particularly like flashes, so I don't use one. Currently, I don't use nosebands. Works for us.


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## mandwhy (4 January 2013)

I too think a flash is a rubbish halfway between a drop and a grackle. 

Don't get me wrong, I have put a flash on occasionally to see if there is improvement but it has always been intended as temporary and generally conclude it is not the answer. I accept that others might find them useful but hope they have put thought into it rather than doing what others do etc.

I know a lot of people who are quite negative about grackles, I find it strange when flashes are so commonplace!


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## charlie76 (4 January 2013)

The flash was invented to enable people who wanted to use a drop nose band or a grackle but also needed a standing martingale.  That is the whole purpose of the invention of the flash,  not to inhibit the breathing as suggested or to strap the mouth shut. If it is correctly fitted then it causes no more discomfort than any other most band


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## wench (4 January 2013)

There are some real numpties on here.

I have had two horses who I have put in flashes at competitions. Both fine at home, but got a little excited at comps. Put a well fitting flash on, and it helped both me and the horse.

A flash strap also comes in useful if you have a nose net - the flash helps to hold the net  down. (I went out on a windy day without the flash and with the net - flipping thing was flapping around all over the place.) Put flash strap on, hey presto problem solved.

Just because you dont use it, doesnt mean that every horse and owner are in the same boat.


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## Megibo (4 January 2013)

I will use one if it is needed. I never do it up so tight it digs into the horses skin though as I see at college.
My 14.3 carries more tension in her jaw with a flash than without one so I don't use one on her-she came with a flash. 
My 13.3 used to be ridden in a dutch gag and flash, instructor recommended a drop and she was back to a plain old snaffle within a week if that. Neither in any dental pain.


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