# Returning Rescue - The right thing to do? (sorry long post)



## Leam1307 (10 December 2012)

Hi there im looking for abit of advice here.

I got a 5month old crossbreed from Romania about 4 weeks ago. He lived in a housing rubbish tip although there was someone who took him inside in cold weather and fed him sometimes.

The first few weeks have been good although i know this was him settling in, he has learned how to walk on the lead, is almost house trained and ignored my 3 cats. This last week though has been very stressful. He started off lunging and snarling at me when i was eating my dinner one night and i was advised to keep him out the room when eating, which we are doing. Now though he has snarled and lunged at my OH and mother (who comes during the day to walk him) for no apparent reason. He has also been hanging off my arm twice now and this morning when i put his lead on he growled and grabbed hold of my scarf which then pulled tight. i didnt want to tell him off since he was so close to my face. When we do tell him off we just say "no" or "enough" firmly and then try to show him the correct behaviour.

I spoke to the rescue this morning and they seem to think i should dominate him and show him im boss (i dont like this type of training) and im feeling very out of my depth. i have always had dogs from small puppies and have trained the biting behaviour from a small age. Now though this boy has adult teeth and adult strength and it bl**dy hurts when he bites never mind it being scary.  My mum and OH seem to think he is just being a puppy but they are not the ones who have been bitten. im getting very scared of doing things with him or even sitting in the same room as him as i feel i have to be constantly on alert incase he suddenly bites.

There has been no reason for this behaviour that i can determin, he was checked over at the vets just last week and got a clean bill of health. He does not appear to be resource guarding either as he will willingly give up toys or food when asked to "leave it"

He is also VERY reactive to other dogs on the lead and has started chasing and jumping on my cats too.

I dont know what to do, i dont think i will ever trust him 100% and thats not why i got a dog in the first place. I think i want to return him to the rescue but im not sure how to as i feel very guilty in admiting that i cant cope with this behaviour and that it is scaring me. When i mention it to my OH and mum they both say im just being silly.  Im getting very upset as i feel they are not taking this serious and that its going to take me being seriously bitten before they admit it.  Not sure what sort of response im looking for just needed to rant abit. Would i be doing the wrong thing by handing him back? i think he might be happier with someone who is more experienced.


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## lexiedhb (10 December 2012)

If you dont think you can work through his issues with the help of trainers/behaviourists/ your family then yes returning him is the right thing to do- however you have not had him very long, and he needs to be taught the rules of your household- he does not automatically know how to behave in a domestic situation.

Mine did the whole adult mouthing thing when we got him- also a rescue- also 25kg's of teeth- is also reactive to other dogs, and luckily i dont have cats!!!!!  it is possible to work through it- but you have to want to and have the support of those also dealing with the dog or it simply wont work! I'd personally give him a bit longer and look into a trainer.

Good luck whatever you decide.


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## CorvusCorax (10 December 2012)

Putting aside my thoughts on rescuing from eastern Europe!!!!

He's a street dog for one. Taken off the street in Romania, put on a boat, put in a house in England, going to be a bit of a culture shock, yes?

You have no idea of his background, but I guess he learned how to survive in the big bad world on his own and he had no real manners put on him at the appropriate time. He's learned to have to fight for his food and look all big and scary to protect himself.

For two, you are scared of him.

For three, whenever he behaves the way he does, you stop doing the things he doesn't want you to do. He's acting like a toddler throwing a tantrum. You don't know what's gone on in his past or what he might perceive as a threat or not - you might think you were just bending down to put his lead on, he might have some other association from when he was younger. He might not like people bending over him, he might not like pressure on the neck or back from a collar or harness.

You've only had him a month.

I wouldn't say dominate him, I would say, don't be scared of him and don't let him throw his weight around. You wouldn't accept a toddler behaving this way, so don't let a puppy.

You are going to have to be firm and you are going to have to be consistent. I think your first port of call should be a trainer or behaviourist, not one who is going to bribe the dog and never apply any sort of pressure to it whatsoever, but one who will teach you how to be that firm, consistent person.

You also need to start redirecting his biting onto something else like a ball or a tug toy or something, you are not a chew toy. 

Showing him who is the boss does not mean battering him, but most dogs don't like ambiguity and leadership (even if that means being a bit firmer and applying more pressure) is actually better than leaving the dog to make his own decisions - cause that isn't really working out for you right now.


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## Leam1307 (10 December 2012)

I have looked into a trainer but all the ones near me are booked until Feb or stop over xmas. he is not just mouthing, he did this when he first came and he still does and its alot more gentle. This is outright growling, snarling and launching onto my arm or at my face. I understand that it has only been a short period of time, thats why i feel so guilty, but it is mainly myself who looks after him and im scared to be in the same room as him just now. 

The rescue said he was a lovely friendly dog who would make a great family pet, and i think he will, but i dont have the experience on how to deal with this. or the confidence to even start. They suggested i grab a hold of his scruff and shake him when he goes to bite... i for one do not want to get that close when he is in the mood to bite. thats just asking for trouble im sure.

i just dont know how to say to the rescue or to my family that ive made a mistake. also i am worried OH will be angry as it cost quite abit of money to bring him over and (quite rightly) we wont get it back.


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## CorvusCorax (10 December 2012)

I agree scruffing might be a risky business if you don't know what you are doing but at the moment he is training you to keep away from him and it is working. He knows you are scared of him. Does he continue to act in the same way with your OH and Mum?

TBH if you think the behaviour is really extreme I would look at putting him to sleep rather than passing the issue on. As mentioned you have no idea of his background or his genetics, out of interest have you idea what breed or mix of breeds he might be?


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## Leam1307 (10 December 2012)

It is in our contract that we are to hand him back if we have any issues and they will assess what is to be done.

We know he is a gsd x but think there is some Collie/husky/lab in there too.

He does snarl and lung at my OH and mum but they smack him on the nose or shout at him when he does this, and tbh it usually makes him lunge again, after 3 or 4 times he will go lie down like nothing has happened. 

Someone on another forum suggested he is just trying to get me to play but at the end of the day this is not a form of play i am comfortable with if he is. to date he hasnt drawn any blood, more out of me having a jacket on both times rather than him not wanting to do harm.

Im just not sure what is the right thing to do, i mean we could continue with the trainign and see if that helps but at what point do you decide that enough is enough. i really dont want to end up getting stitches before OH realises it was serious. I also dont want to make things worse if im not sure what im doing.


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## CorvusCorax (10 December 2012)

Enough is not enough if you've only had him a month - my young dog is two in January and he is STILL very pushy and I know both his parents, exactly where he came from, I've had him from 14 weeks, I train him EVERY day and we go to a training session once a week. I have to be on top of him all the time. Even things like going through a door before him, not letting him break a sit, not letting him snatch food out of my hand.

If you think it is rough play then, like I say, invest in a tuggie or a good strong ball on a rope and engage him with it.

Put a light house line on his collar so that you are not always going for his collar as a lot of dogs find this intimidating. If he is messing about, don't shout or hit or yell, say nothing, just firmly take the line and put him out of the room. If he's been feral and has been part of a pack, he will know exactly what isolation means.


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## Spudlet (10 December 2012)

A house line would be my advice too.

Really, you need someone to come out and see what is happening so they can assess the interaction between you both - it's a question of whether or not you feel you can wait until someone is free to do this. A month is no time at all for any rescue dog to fit in, let alone one from such a radically different background as a Romanian street dog. He will not have had an easy time out there and although someone may have been feeding him that does not mean that he will view all human beings as things to welcome - he may well be afraid of you and getting in there first. Or he may be being bolshy. Or he may just not understand that this is not how you play with fragile humans. Without seeing him, we can't say for sure.


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## CorvusCorax (10 December 2012)

OP, I know the situation is not ideal, but I think if he actually meant to bite you and cause you harm, he would have done so by now, they're not stupid, so I would take a little comfort in that. But try not to act like 'prey'.

However, re what the rescue have said - do you think this street dog, with unknown background and experiences, would make a nice family pet? Would you be happy if he were to be rehomed to a home with small children?


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## Chestnuttymare (10 December 2012)

As others have said, this is a street dog where you have no idea of his experiences. what he will be adept it though is understanding human body language ie nice person to give me food, nasty person who will kick me, person who is scared of the street dogs. you are obviously person number 3 and he is treating you accordingly. He must be so confused, you have obviously done this with the best intentions but this is so alien to him ,he doesn't understand the language or how to live in a house. 3 out of the 4 breeds you mention are all dominant type dogs and not the easiest breeds to deal with,  even if they are brought up in a domestic setting. You really need to get someone who knows what they are doing, can someone from the rescue come and give you some help. surely they can't rehome these dogs and then offer no support, that would be totally irresponsible.  It must be a common problem and there must be plenty other problems also.  did they bring the dog over specifically for you or did they bring him and you saw him advertised? 

A month is no time at all for a dog with his background to readjust.
I hope you manage to sort something.


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## Caledonia (10 December 2012)

Could you say where you got him from, OP?


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## swanny (10 December 2012)

I agree that a month is not long for a rescue dog to settle in but if you are scared to be around him then I'm afraid I think you probably already know the answer to your question. If the rescue are not able to help with home training or a behaviourist then I think you are quite right to ask them to take him back. There is no shame in admitting that he is not right for you or is too much for you to handle just now. The reality is that if he does bite you and cause serious damage then his options for further rehoming are seriously damaged too. A rescue shelter can not or should not pass on a dog that has bitten. Better to call it a day now and hope that he can find a home with further training. I was recently bitten by the yard collie, he gave me no warning and just came at me and didn't stop. I'm a veterinary nurse so it's not like I'm not confident and experienced around dogs. Some dogs just have it in them and there may be nothing you personally can do to help him through. Give some one else a chance to turn him around and don' feel guilty about it. Ask your OH how he would feel if the dog bites you and you need hospital treatment, time off work etc, also the dog will almost definetly be PTS if this happens, no second chances. Please try not to put yourself in any danger without further help.


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## Dobiegirl (10 December 2012)

This dog is only 5months old and yet he is too much for you, you dont sound very experienced and to be honest I think you should give him back to the rescue. You probabley took him on for all the right reasons but I think the rescue have let you down, they should take him back and get him properly assessed and source an experienced home who could cope with a dog from this type of background.


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## Samuelissimo (10 December 2012)

The rescue should support you in this.  I volunteer for one and their offer of support is open-ended.  I hope the rescue did a home visit first and gave you lots of tips.
I have to agree with ^^(raised eyebrows) re rescuing from E Europe as there are an awful lot of dogs in this country available for rescue.  Doing this could inadvertently create a puppy market in a poor country if the locals figure they can make a bob or two. I applaud your kind-heartedness in this - I am not criticising you, but your story suggests the rescue organisation is not providing you with the help you need.


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## Star_Chaser (10 December 2012)

Where are you?  If your struggling to find a good behaviourist maybe one of us might know someone close to you that could at least help you out.

I have to say if you think you have bitten off more than you can chew its time for a rethink.  Have to say if it were me the ****** would be out and training to tire him out and to get some bonding done.  Are you doing any training courses at the moment??  If not book them doesn't matter what it is even if its not particularly breed specific (I still recommend gundog work for all breeds purely because it helps socialing and behaviour outside the classroom).


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## elsielouise (10 December 2012)

Weeeell We too have just taken on a five month rescue pup. History unknown, was abandoned about eight weeks before ending up in the rescue kennels. Her early formative weeks are a mystery and her recent history involves kennels without natural daylight and about twenty minutes out of 24 hours out of her cage.  

BUT she has come to our pack who KNOW how the hierarchy works in our house and she is slotting in. She has literally just tried to demonstrate her dominance over my adolescent male JRT and he looked directly at me (to see how to react?) I put her away from the pack (we have four dogs inc her) so nothing happened beyond her growl at him.

I have no doubt she will try it again and I suspect your pup is doing the same but seeing you as an 'equal' in the pack rather than leader and he has no others to copy either (my pup sees my dogs move out my space, sit when I come in, wait behind me through doors etc etc.)

However - I suspect my greyhound cross lab has a temperament completely different to yours and she has given me not one ounce of concern around the human members of my family including my four year old son. 

BUT IF she did demonstrate behaviours that concerned me she would be gone I am afraid as, although it has only been weeks for us too I could not take the risk with my child and indeed the rescue I took her from agreed that -  although we are pretty sure she is not going to be a problem, return is preferable to risk to my son.

I think in your case unless you can change your fear feelings you may be better giving the dog the opportunity to be in an experienced home. And by that I mean one more experienced with dogs with 'history'.

If your family knows you are seriously concerned then they will surely understand. At the end of the day too, PTS is not the worse scenario for a street dog either and with the best will in the world we cannot all be in a position to spend significant money and time on a dog that may be too broken.

ETA I agree with the gun dog training idea. Will be doing this with mine in the spring although I worry she has inherited the brains of the greyhound and stomach of lab. Doesn't know whether to eat or run.


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## Leam1307 (10 December 2012)

Thank you all so much for the replies.

Ok some history. I am experience with dogs in that i have had them all my life growing up, but we have always gotten them as 8wk old pups and have started basic training and bite inhabitation immediately. I didnt realise it would be so different with a 5 month old, figured i would just train the same as i did with the pups  

The dog was abandend in the rubbish tip at 2weeks of age with his 5 siblings, only he has survived. The rescue spotted him at 4 months old and took him to one of their colleagues shelters where he stayed for a month before i saw him, i then paid for him to be brought over. We could not rescue from the UK because as soon as i mentioned either we had cats or we worked full time i was hung up on or given abuse about being cruel to have a dog. They UK rescues did not even let me tell them that i had a dog walker lined up (that being my mum so wasnt likely to be let down)  The conditions in Romanian rescues are by far worse than anything in the UK. if the dog wardens catch a dog then it is pts and not humanely. they use petrol injections to the heart, set them on fire in the street, or sometimes chain them to the back of their vans and then drive off.  I felt one of these dogs required more help than a UK rescue.

The rescue has put me in touch with their behaviourist but she is based in London (im in Scotland) so has only been able to give me some tips on how to distract him if he looks like he is about to have a go. He has actually bitten me twice now but as ive had a jacket on each time i have just ended up with some nasty bruising.

Basically i have to be more firm with him without actually being dominating. Using a lower tone of voice, and reinforce some of the basics we have been working on such as making him sit and wait for his dinner, "look at me" commands and "leave it".

I had looked out a few names of trainers in my area but the one i liked best is full until Feb, another is shut over xmas and doesnt allow unsocialised dogs in the class (how are you meant to socialise a dog if you cant take it to classes is beyond me, i thought thats what they were for?!?) and the last one close enough well.. they sound like the "you must be pack leader" people which im not interested in.


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## CorvusCorax (10 December 2012)

Look OP, you're either going to have to toughen up and show some leadership (again, it doesn't mean battering him) or lose the dog. He is using you as a chew toy. Giving you advice to scruff him over the phone is daft and I can't say for certain without seeing him, but it sounds like using the softly softly approach isn't working for him. That doesn't mean kick him, it means RULES.

A dog who knows where they are in the structure is a happier one, dogs who are forced into leadership roles because of weak handling (I know, I was that weak handler) are generally the ones who are unhappy and misbehave.

My trainer is always telling us, you get the behaviour you reward/reinforce - you're reinforcing that when he acts like that, you go away and leave him alone. Reinforce the behaviour you WANT.


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## Copperpot (10 December 2012)

I applaud anyone helping animals in need, but I do not agree with bringing dogs into this country when they are thousands of dogs being pts after a week in the pound here. And many more who have been in rescue for months. The money it costs to help one dog in another country could help 10 here!

You do need to be your dogs leader. Your dog needs to look to you for guidance and to know from you what is acceptable behaviour and what is not. I do not dominate any of my dogs, but they have to know who is in charge and that it is not them.


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## Spudlet (10 December 2012)

Being leader doesn't have to mean marching around beating your chest, yelling 'I am the LEADER! Raaah! Fear me, I am MIGHTY!'  It is about being calm and projecting confidence at all times. It is more about being someone who you want to follow, rather than someone you have to follow - someone who sets clear boundaries then reinforces them consistently, fairly and proportionately.


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## s4sugar (10 December 2012)

Leam1307 said:



			Thank you all so much for the replies.

O


The dog was abandend in the rubbish tip at 2weeks of age with his 5 siblings, only he has survived. The rescue spotted him at 4 months old and took him to one of their colleagues shelters where he stayed for a month before i saw him, i then paid for him to be brought over. We could not rescue from the UK because as soon as i mentioned either we had cats or we worked full time i was hung up on or given abuse about being cruel to have a dog. They UK rescues did not even let me tell them that i had a dog walker lined up (that being my mum so wasnt likely to be let down)  The conditions in Romanian rescues are by far worse than anything in the UK. if the dog wardens catch a dog then it is pts and not humanely. they use petrol injections to the heart, set them on fire in the street, or sometimes chain them to the back of their vans and then drive off.  I felt one of these dogs required more help than a UK rescue.

The rescue has put me in touch with their behaviourist but she is based in London (im in Scotland) so has only been able to give me some tips on how to distract him if he looks like he is about to have a go. He has actually bitten me twice now but as ive had a jacket on each time i have just ended up with some nasty bruising.
		
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Sorry but you appear to have been misinformed. Why would a Romanian Dog Warden "waste" petrol to PTS a dog when a hammer is quicker & cheaper? They do not set them on fire in the street nor do they drag them behind vehicles -I have no doubt that this has happened to dogs as thugs exist the world over but this is selling talk to encourage you to pay up. 
Did you try your local pound? They would PTS dogs most weeks. Breed rescues?  A dog walker is acceptable to most organisations and none bar cat owners from taking a dog but you may have to wait longer.

You need to toughen up. Be stern, not hard, and let the pup know what is & isn't acceptable. If you can't do this hand him straight back to the rescue or talk to them and get him euthanised as his chances for rehoming are virtually nil.

Why would someone take on a large pup that has been allowed to do his own thing and has already bitten? -you just admitted it!


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## EAST KENT (10 December 2012)

This pup would have had to fight for every scrap of food,attack it`s siblings to gain their portion ..or die.He is already top dog to you at only baby age,it is far more difficult to turn that around than someone starting anew.He has already sorted out HIS boundaries,and will go on pushing for more.In my opnion you should return this feral dog before you really get hurt<for feral is what he is. There are many many perfectly nice poundies on Death Row who are charming,just no longer flavour of the month with their scummy ex owners,please rehome one of those


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## Copperpot (10 December 2012)

Well said East Kent!!


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## Anglebracket (10 December 2012)

Leam1307 said:



			the last one close enough well.. they sound like the "you must be pack leader" people which im not interested in.
		
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Being pack leader is neither nasty nor cruel; it gives your dog the social structure he needs to thrive and be a happy.


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## Chestnuttymare (10 December 2012)

I didn't realise he was only 5 months! You do have to show him you  are the leader. there is nothing wrong with that. It doens't mean you need to beat him. there are various strategies you can use. where in scotland are you, is the rescue up here too?


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## CorvusCorax (10 December 2012)

Some very good points from other posters.

Probably going off topic but I'm really saddened that some elements of the pro-positive propaganda machine are now brainwashing the average pet owner into thinking that setting boundaries and showing leadership = dog abuse. And then the same people wonder why their dogs, particularly those who are GENETICALLY, never mind environmentally, inclined to gamble with what they can get away with, are acting up.

I'll say this again...there are very few dogs strong enough to take the pressure of being in charge. Dogs who are up one minute, down the next, generally end up confused and frustrated and they take it out on the person they see to be acting 'unfairly' towards them, the source of the confusion, you can do this, oh, now you can. You can't go there, oh, now you can. That's generally us. 

Re the jacket thing - a jacket won't stop a dog that really wants to cause you harm and inflict a bite that will really stop you in your tracks. If you think that is going to happen, then that is what probably will happen if you keep giving out those vibes.

I know dogs that have bent the metal bite bar inside a padded hessian sleeve. 

I've had bruising on my arm from a dog who I know perfectly well can bite hard, but he was using the only tool he had, his mouth, to try to stop me doing what he didn't want me to do. I didn't. I got a purple arm, he got a valuable lesson, and it's not happened since.


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## CAYLA (10 December 2012)

I agree you sound very out of your depth, there is no comparison with having dogs from 8 weeks old and having a dog with serious behavioural issues thats semi feral from another country at 5 months old.
The rescue sound shocking and quite frankly it boils my blood these dogs are coming in droves (lots of money changing hands) and them being a fashion accessory for most (the new in thing) OP how many rescues did you try? we for one rehome to working homes, im in the process of homing a working cocker to a lady who works full time, she has proven she can walk him before and after work and has given details for her dog walker and she has cats!.....she has owned working cockers all her life (to me this kind of home is more important) over someone who works part time but never owned a working cocker (anyway) thats just an example.
There are plenty of other places you could have gotten a dog inc the local dog pounds (they dont home check) or ask any questions re where the dog goes.
You need a good behaviourist and may as you suggest have to wait (in the meantime the lack of support from the rescue) is hideous esp given the back ground of these dogs (seems like no back up plan is in place) for the poor dogs other than the only thought of (transport box/aeroplane and money) I do belive as said by s4sugar we are creating a puppy farm type market now for these dogs, money would be better spent building neutering clinics and much needed treatment/getting vets out there and educating people within the country in regard to these dogs or humane put to sleep for all the street dogs NOT importing them here, there and everywhere, I forsee in a few years our pounds will be packed with foreign rescue dogs (how stressful) for the dog.

Sorry semi rant....imo you cannot get information from a forum for such behaviour, good luck finding a behaviourist or getting help from the supposed rescue.

Ps I had a couple come to me last week for a dog (they reserved a foreign dog) it attacked their dog really bad upon meet (even though being told it was fine with dogs) and when the couple said it was not the dog for them and had issues with the "return" agreement the woman went ballistic "saying she has no where to put the dog now" (horrifying)


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## Honey08 (10 December 2012)

Leam1307 said:



			. they sound like the "you must be pack leader" people which im not interested in.
		
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Out of interest, why don't you want to be the pack leader?  If you're not pack leader, he is, and is this a good thing when you're already scared of him??  

Aside from all the rescue elements, he is a young dog, a young big dog.  I worked as a nanny in Paris for a family that had a young lab.  He used to bite, leap about, and terrorise the young teenage daughter.  He hadn't had any proper training.  They went to the caribbean for a month over Xmas and I walked him for miles every day, and he got a good smack and growl if he went to bite, and he was a different pup.  They need boundaries and help.  

I feel very sorry for you, you are obviously frightened and your heart was in the right place, but you do need to try a bit and not be so picky about where you get help from.  Your mum and OH don't seem worried, so he isn't that scary.  Could they do more of the looking after him until you have had some training with him and feel more confident?


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## CorvusCorax (10 December 2012)

OP, one more thing before I hit the hay because this has been bugging me tonight.

Can you please, please as honestly as you can, answer, do you think:

Is he too damaged, is his behaviour too extreme to overcome, do you genuinely think he is a danger and a liability and will seriously injure you or someone else?

Or do you think he is just a very young dog with a rough start and no direction whatsoever who has undergone a traumatic journey and is now living in a situation where he is out of sorts, a fish out of water, confused and pushing his luck and you are being a bit wet and as mentioned, only want to deal with it in a certain way? Which MAY NOT suit the dog?

Once you have answered that question to yourself, honestly, take it from there. 
Either sort him out yourself - it has to be YOU who does the sorting, the trainer will teach YOU, not the dog and it WILL take a lot of time and effort - or send him back (I wouldn't, personally), or send him to the big kennel in the sky.


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## Leam1307 (10 December 2012)

s4sugar said:



			Sorry but you appear to have been misinformed. Why would a Romanian Dog Warden "waste" petrol to PTS a dog when a hammer is quicker & cheaper? They do not set them on fire in the street nor do they drag them behind vehicles -I have no doubt that this has happened to dogs as thugs exist the world over but this is selling talk to encourage you to pay up. 

Did you try your local pound? They would PTS dogs most weeks. Breed rescues?  A dog walker is acceptable to most organisations and none bar cat owners from taking a dog but you may have to wait longer.
		
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Yes they do do this, i have seen it myself when i satyed in Romania for 2 years, the authorities were not interested when i reported it, i was told their country their rules! And yes i tried our local pound, it has a no kill policy and will rehome to other rescues or foster the dogs themselves if they have space. They did not have any dogs that were friendly with cats at the time. we tried a few with the owners cat and they were not suitable.


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## Leam1307 (10 December 2012)

CAYLA said:



			I agree you sound very out of your depth, there is no comparison with having dogs from 8 weeks old and having a dog with serious behavioural issues thats semi feral from another country at 5 months old.
The rescue sound shocking and quite frankly it boils my blood these dogs are coming in droves (lots of money changing hands) and them being a fashion accessory for most (the new in thing) *Can you tell me in what way are they fashion accessories? Just because they are fom another country does not mean they do not require help. the UK has lots of rescues that quite frankly are like a palace to what these dogs are living in*

OP how many rescues did you try? *I believe i tried 18, either they didnt rehome with cats, wouldnt rehome with us working, didnt rehome in our area, our garden was too small (even though the dog is never in the garden) the list is endless*we for one rehome to working homes, im in the process of homing a working cocker to a lady who works full time, she has proven she can walk him before and after work and has given details for her dog walker and she has cats!.....she has owned working cockers all her life (to me this kind of home is more important) over someone who works part time but never owned a working cocker (anyway) thats just an example.
There are plenty of other places you could have gotten a dog inc the local dog pounds (they dont home check) or ask any questions re where the dog goes. *Our dog pound does do home checks, but did not have any dogs that were suitable with cats, they usually hand the dogs over to DT or RSPCA.*
You need a good behaviourist and may as you suggest have to wait (in the meantime the lack of support from the rescue) is hideous esp given the back ground of these dogs *Did you not read the part where i said they had put me in touch with their behaviourist? how does that equate as hideous?*(seems like no back up plan is in place) for the poor dogs other than the only thought of (transport box/aeroplane and money) I do belive as said by s4sugar we are creating a puppy farm type market now for these dogs, money would be better spent building neutering clinics *This is done, the rescue currently has contracts with 3 vets in romania who catch neuter and release the dogs, they also fund a few in thailand too*and much needed treatment/getting vets out there and educating people within the country in regard to these dogs or humane put to sleep for all the street dogs NOT importing them here, there and everywhere, I forsee in a few years our pounds will be packed with foreign rescue dogs (how stressful) for the dog.

Sorry semi rant....imo you cannot get information from a forum for such behaviour, good luck finding a behaviourist or getting help from the supposed rescue.
		
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Too many points to cover there so see the bold comments


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## Leam1307 (10 December 2012)

Honey08 said:



			Out of interest, why don't you want to be the pack leader?  If you're not pack leader, he is, and is this a good thing when you're already scared of him??
		
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I dont mind being leader in the respect of setting boundaries etc. but the training place was talking pack leader as in CM, with choke chains, spray collars and shock collars. That is how most people here seem to think of by "pack leader" and that is what i meant i do not like.


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## Leam1307 (10 December 2012)

CaveCanem said:



			OP, one more thing before I hit the hay because this has been bugging me tonight.

Can you please, please as honestly as you can, answer, do you think:

Is he too damaged, is his behaviour too extreme to overcome, do you genuinely think he is a danger and a liability and will seriously injure you or someone else?

Or do you think he is just a very young dog with a rough start and no direction whatsoever who has undergone a traumatic journey and is now living in a situation where he is out of sorts, a fish out of water, confused and pushing his luck and you are being a bit wet and as mentioned, only want to deal with it in a certain way? Which MAY NOT suit the dog?

Once you have answered that question to yourself, honestly, take it from there. 
Either sort him out yourself - it has to be YOU who does the sorting, the trainer will teach YOU, not the dog and it WILL take a lot of time and effort - or send him back (I wouldn't, personally), or send him to the big kennel in the sky.
		
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I feel he is a very young dog who would benefit from someone who has more experiance of these behavioural issues. I in no way think he is doing this out of nastiness, i think it is obviously lack of training and having grown up doing his own thing. I think putting him to sleep is very extreme and is not something i would consider even if i was allowed to.


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## Chestnuttymare (10 December 2012)

where in scotland are you, where is the rescue based, are they up here too?


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## Dobiegirl (10 December 2012)

Give him back to the rescue, you are clearly frightened of him and it will never work while you feel this way.

Try a breed rescue they are far more lenient than the RSPCA,Dogs Trut etc.


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## CorvusCorax (10 December 2012)

Still not in bed  

All of our dogs have worn flat link choke chains (apart from anything, they don't get wrecked when they go in the sea, it doesn't matter if they get encrusted with mud, they never, ever break, you can make them as long or short or tight or loose as you want, you can use them like a normal flat collar and only bring the live ring into play when you need it etc etc) and I have managed not to break a dog yet. 

In fact, when my dog hears his chain jingling, he gets wound up because he knows it is associated with: food, work, play. It has good associations.
He might get a 'pop' on it very occasionally, but when the 'pop' is responded to with focus/the right behaviour, the pressure is off and he *immediately* gets a reward - negative, positive, positive - for some dogs there has to be SOME consequence for undesirable behaviour before you reinforce the behaviour you want. 

Used intelligently, some of the tools people baulk at, can actually be used alongside positive methods. But hey, that's what I mean by the propaganda machine. But maybe that's a different subject for a different thread.

Definitely going to bed now.


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## CAYLA (11 December 2012)

IMO a fashion accessory like the mass buying of designer x breeds (its the new cool) for some people to say "I have a foreign rescue dog on order/reserve".

Hideous (because their behaviourst is in LONDON, where did you get this dog surely there is someone with experience in the rescue closer that should have by now visited your home, if I had that call I would be very concerned and would have been out to you as priority to witness the behaviour myself. These dogs will need far more post home support than a normal rescue it should be taken into consideration.

Indeed they need help (as I said) in the way of them remaining in their own country of origin and help going to them (clinics/neutering) humane put to sleeps by a vet.

I have to say passing this dog and his behaviour on is not all you may dream it to be, you say he just needs someone more experienced, in reality there are dogs out there homeless and desperate in their thousands who are free of behavioural issues, so if the rescue where indeed very truthful about his behaviour in your home (as they should be), I can't see anyone else wanting to take him on) I personally would keep the dog and work through anything and deal with the behaviour with professional help (esp if I went so far as to reserved it from a foreign country) I would think worst case scenario is he will end up in a kennel for a very long time or pts. Good luck which ever you decide.

Maybe your mam and OH are right and you are just scared stiff of dealing with him now, but you need an assessment asap from the rescue themselves, I take it the London behaviourist will come and visit eventually as all behaviour cannot be dealt with over the phone can you hang in till then and impliment some rules, like the (out when eating) as you are and using a slip lead for easy handling if you are affraid to get bitten in the house, did you try a few training classes to see if any would accept you in regard to him being socilaised with other dogs or did they all say no?


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## Love_my_Lurcher (11 December 2012)

There is a behaviourist based in Stirlingshire called Roddy Kirk. He has trained with Cesar Millan and specializes in powerful breeds, aggression, and helping people to be calm and assertive. I have never met him, but he has been recommended on a lot of forums by owners who had similar problems with their dogs. His site can be found here.

I really hope this helps and that you and your dog can overcome your issues. Remain positive and please don't give up on him as there is help out there.


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## Leam1307 (11 December 2012)

The rescue is also based in London so it makes sense that their behaviourist is too. She has given me some things to work on, more reinforcing basics at the moment like wait and stay and look at me for when i think he is going to have a go, this way i can redirect his attention. I will see how i get on with these and if there is no improvement i will ask the behaviourist if she recommends anyone in this area.

I did try breed rescues, small rescues, the large ones and tbh until they change their policies and are abit more accommodating then they are going to get people going elsewhere to rescue. At the end of the day a rescue is a rescue and it shouldnt matter where it is, it is still a dog in need.

He is not really a large breed dog even though he has those mixes, he is only about the size of a cocker spaniel id say and doesnt have very big paws at all, my vet reckons he might grow another inch or two but definately not any more.


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## Cedars (11 December 2012)

How can you possibly know that the dog was abandoned at 2 weeks if they didn't find him til 4 months? I find this situation staggering and the rescue should be named and shamed - perfect family pet? A dog who has had to fight his whole life for everything and anything? REALLY? 

I know nothing about managing dogs like this but you either need to shape up, stop acting scared of him and teach him his place OR you need to get rid of him. Though I would be inclined to PTS pretty much regardless of what the rescue say. Poor sod.


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## Amymay (11 December 2012)

Send the dog back, you're way out of your depth.


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## Sleighfarer (11 December 2012)

Leam1307 said:



			He is not really a large breed dog even though he has those mixes, he is only about the size of a cocker spaniel id say and doesnt have very big paws at all, my vet reckons he might grow another inch or two but definately not any more.
		
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Big paws, eh?


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## Leam1307 (11 December 2012)

Cedars said:



			How can you possibly know that the dog was abandoned at 2 weeks if they didn't find him til 4 months? I find this situation staggering and the rescue should be named and shamed - perfect family pet? A dog who has had to fight his whole life for everything and anything? REALLY? 

I know nothing about managing dogs like this but you either need to shape up, stop acting scared of him and teach him his place OR you need to get rid of him. Though I would be inclined to PTS pretty much regardless of what the rescue say. Poor sod.
		
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Please read posts carefully, there was a lady who took him in when it was cold and fed him, this is how they know he was abandend at 2weeks old and that he had 5 sibblings which did not survive.

I do find it rather funny to be honest, alot of people saying shape up and i need to be firmer or train such and such, but no positive comments on how to actually do these things, yous all seem very condesending on here and really the comments regarding pts is shocking and very disturbing that you are all so quick to say this.

I shall leave now i see this is not the type of forum i want to be involved with.


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## Spudlet (11 December 2012)

Leam1307 said:



			Please read posts carefully, there was a lady who took him in when it was cold and fed him, this is how they know he was abandend at 2weeks old and that he had 5 sibblings which did not survive.

I do find it rather funny to be honest, alot of people saying shape up and i need to be firmer or train such and such, but no positive comments on how to actually do these things, yous all seem very condesending on here and really the comments regarding pts is shocking and very disturbing that you are all so quick to say this.

I shall leave now i see this is not the type of forum i want to be involved with.
		
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Actually, I don't think that's fair. You have had advice. You've been advised to use a houseline, advised on how to react to his tantrums, and advised to find help.The last part is the most important.

I am never sure of what people expect from forums really. You have to be able to see the dog yourself to advise properly - otherwise you could end up making things worse! For that reason any responsible trainer will only give the most general, bland advice on this kind of forum.

I wish you luck with this dog.


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## CorvusCorax (11 December 2012)

Wow, really? You've been advised to use a house line, you've been advised to use a toy to redirect him, you've been advised to remain calm and confident, you've been advised to isolate him, you've been advised to reinforce the behaviour you want, you've been reassured, you've been largely supported, any negative comments are out of concern for yourself and ire at the rescue.

Actually it sounds like you've had more positive advice here than the behaviourist over the phone or email or whatever. 

I was trying to give you a friendly kick up the arse, like the many times I have been given a friendly kick up the arse and told to buck my ideas up, and guess what, I did, and it's helped me and my dogs immensely.

I personally didn't type any of the answers out for fun, I was trying to help you and your dog. You haven't actually responded to any of the advice that was given, just got increasingly defensive and saw everything as a personal attack.

A forum full of people you don't know is not going to fix your dog, they can give hints and tips but that's it, you're free to take them or leave them - I say free, because I know people who would charge you through the nose for some of the advice you've been given. 

I get the feeling you wanted a pat on the back for wanting to return him, and because you haven't, you're stropping off.


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## lexiedhb (11 December 2012)

Leam1307 said:



			Please read posts carefully, there was a lady who took him in when it was cold and fed him, this is how they know he was abandend at 2weeks old and that he had 5 sibblings which did not survive.

I do find it rather funny to be honest, alot of people saying shape up and i need to be firmer or train such and such, but no positive comments on how to actually do these things, yous all seem very condesending on here and really the comments regarding pts is shocking and very disturbing that you are all so quick to say this.

I shall leave now i see this is not the type of forum i want to be involved with.
		
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How can anyone give specific advice without seeing the dog- we all said get a trainer/behaviourist- this is what you need. if you can not find one/ are not prepared to wait then send the dog back- but all you are doing is effectively passing on a dog with issues, who in rescue WILL NOT get the time/training it needs, thus could cause a problem for another family- hence the responsible thing to do is PTS- especially whilst there are 1000's of perfectly happy waggy dogs waiting for their forever homes who do not require months of rehab.

What you describe IS mouthing- biting, IMO,  breaks the skin- I was bruised from wrist to elbow. For what its worth i stopped mine by screeching at him- like he had just ripped my arm off- not like you would to a puppy but like he had actually just nearly killed me (I only had to do this once!)- and leaving the room for 5 mins. Any other unwanted behaviour either I left the room, or he was escorted calmly and without a fight into another room until he had calmed. - he spent a lot of time in another room 

basic obeidence also helped- have a look at NILIFF training
http://k9deb.com/nilif.htm

helped us too.

BUT the thing that helped the most was finding a secure field where the dog could run his paws off and be a dog...........


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## Dobiegirl (11 December 2012)

OP I have serious doubts about your genuiness, you have stated a few things which dont add up, pound dogs for example, you just go and pay the money and pick one up, they dont home check. Breed rescues are extremely flexible, every time someone suggests something you come up with an excuse why you cant do it. Other posters have asked where you are, they are not asking for your address just a general area so they can put you in touch with someone who can help but you have not answered, I find that strange, if it was me I would be only too happy to say if I thought it would help my situation.


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## MurphysMinder (11 December 2012)

OP from what I can see you have been offered quite a lot of advice.  Tbh I think the rescue have been telling you fairy tales.  You say he was abandoned at 2 weeks, and some one took him in when it was cold and fed him sometimes.  I am sorry but a 2 week old pup would have to be fed and toileted every 4 hours or so otherwise no way would it survive.  Also how do they know he is a GSD x if he was abandoned?  I suspect someone is on a nice little earner charging people to rescue a puppy, he more than likely came over in the back of a van with several others all of whom had been paid for by well meaning folk like yourself.  Did he have any vaccination records etc?

The title of this thread is Returning to Rescue - Right thing to do?,  you have asked for opinions and those suggesting pts are giving their opinions.  For what its worse I agree with them, I don't think you will ever be happy with this pup, you are not prepared to using even a choke/check chain to correct him, they arent instruments of torture you know, and if he is returned to the rescue he will more likely spend many months in kennels, pts is a far better option for him imho.
I know some rescues are ridiculously fussy, but there would be plenty out there who would home to someone in your circumstances, you just have to be patient.  I wish you luck whatever you decide, but if you aren't prepared to give the pup the tough love he needs then I really think he is best being pts.


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## Amymay (11 December 2012)

Would be lovely to know which group brought this dog over.


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## Chestnuttymare (11 December 2012)

OP don't go off. people are trying to help. some are asking questions so they can possibly suggest something but need a bit more information. i asked where in scotland you are in case you are near me and i can do anything to help. This pup is only 5 months old, way young enough to be able to sort out reasonably quickly.


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## Leam1307 (11 December 2012)

I am based in Fife Scotland, I have contacted the lady who runs the training class i wanted to join but that is full to see if she would consider doing some one on one training with us.

As it turns out, i have spoken again to the lady who took him in, in romania and her and her OH had trained him to "Smile" and Speak" this being bearing his teeth and snarling. apparently they trained this as his scary face. She seemed very pleased that she had trained him to do this and it apparently took alot of work and treats!  If you ignore him he meant to jump up for "kisses" at your face, when i mentioned to her this could be construed as aggressive she said no thats why she only trained him to do it in the house as abit of fun!!!! 

So now i understand why he is doing it and why it is getting worse. started with just the teeth and growling and progressed to the snapping and jumping up, he thinks he is doing the correct thing, poor boy is bound to be all muddled.

So i am hoping the to train some different cues for him to learn although i realise he may revert back to this technique if he doesnt get his own way. I feel abit more comfortable in that it was a stupid person who taught this behaviour and not something the dog is just doing.

I do thank you for taking the time to reply to my original post. Good day.


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## Amymay (11 December 2012)

What was the name of the organisation you rescued through OP?

And great that you may have found the cause of his behaviour.


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## stargirl88 (11 December 2012)

That's a clever thing to do isn't it  but at least you have found a possible cause. Hopefully your new trainer will help you train it out of her

Hope things get back on track.


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## Leam1307 (11 December 2012)

It was k-9 angels. they are based in london but rehome all over uk


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## Amymay (11 December 2012)

Leam1307 said:



			It was k-9 angels. they are based in london but rehome all over uk
		
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Ah, right.  Thanks.


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## CorvusCorax (11 December 2012)

Great that you managed to get an answer so promptly, just over 24 hours after you first posted here, when you were all set to hand him back, what a lucky dog.

Good luck and all the best with him


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## Leam1307 (11 December 2012)

Yes it was lucky, the lady seems to be on fb 24hrs a day but her english is not good so i usually try to avoid talking to her much. and i did not expect a reply from the behaviourist so promptly. i hadnt even contacted her yet when i first posted on here.


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## Dobiegirl (11 December 2012)

CaveCanem said:



			Great that you managed to get an answer so promptly, just over 24 hours after you first posted here, when you were all set to hand him back, what a lucky dog.

Good luck and all the best with him 

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I agree, I hope this lady training this behaviour has been put right by the rescue because its one of the most stupid things Ive ever heard anyone do. This is why rescues should be made up of experienced dog people and not someone trying to teach cute tricks.


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## s4sugar (11 December 2012)

Dobiegirl said:



			I agree, I hope this lady training this behaviour has been put right by the rescue because its one of the most stupid things Ive ever heard anyone do. This is why rescues should be made up of experienced dog people and not someone trying to teach cute tricks.
		
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Agreed -very scary that someone would be stupid enough to train this and even more scary when you look up the "rescue" and realise they have no UK back up in place.


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## Leam1307 (11 December 2012)

The lady who taught this is not part of the rescue she lived in the flats next to the rubbish tip where he lived. yes the rescue are not happy that she didnt tell them about this.


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## MurphysMinder (11 December 2012)

What a bright pup he must be if someone was able to teach him those different behaviours in such a short time. You will have to do lots with him from now on to keep that brain occupied.


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## Leam1307 (11 December 2012)

Yes i think it must be the collie. he is very quick to learn new things. he was housetrained in just 2 days, only had one accident and that was the first day of having him. he now picks up his lead and brings it to me when he wants to go out. unfortunately this does mean he picks up bad habits very quickly too.


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## Leam1307 (11 December 2012)

A friend does competition agility and hopefully we can start doing some training too. not too much since he is still young but enough to keep him occupied


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## Chestnuttymare (11 December 2012)

glad you have got to the bottom of it. have to agree with the others though, what a ridiculous thing to teach a dog. could she not have taught him to give a paw like normal dogs! 
I am just over the bridge so not too far from you. 
hope you feel better about things now.


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## EAST KENT (11 December 2012)

Would it be the one called Johnny on their site OP?


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## Leam1307 (11 December 2012)

Yes that is him. funnily enough giving a paw is the one thing he is struggling with. lol keeps trying to give both at once.


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## Leam1307 (11 December 2012)

Their behaviourist has given me some more things to try to discourage this and a few other things to start on as he is so brainy


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## dingle12 (11 December 2012)

I've seen some awful animal cruelty here in the uk but some of thoses photos are awful the way different country's treat animals are shocking


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## Spudlet (12 December 2012)

Glad you got an answer! He sounds like a dog that might take well to clicker training - it's a good way to capture the behaviours you want while keeping things calm. If he's prone to getting excitable, you might find it useful. There are guides on how to start this online, although your best bet if possible would be to find someone local that uses this method and have a lesson with them. When we do clicker training we do it as a one to one, as you need to be sure the client gets their timing right.


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## MurphysMinder (12 December 2012)

Having seen his photo, I am even more intrigued that the rescue say they "know" he is GSDx, because I can't really see it.


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## Maisie2 (12 December 2012)

Firstly, well done you on taking this dog on - wherever he comes from seems unimportant to me   So glad that you're getting good info on him to help you retrain him.  I took on a 'rescue' dog 18 months ago, he was nervous/aggressive and it took at least 9 months for him to settle but he was about 3 years old.  The best of luck with this extremely lucky dog after an appalling start in life and do let us know how you get on, I'm sure Cayla in particular can give you good advice.  btw Cayla if you read this, I'm sorry to read you've given up your rescue


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## CorvusCorax (12 December 2012)

With clicker training, if you try it, just be careful he doesn't start offering up behaviours (sounds like he is doing this already) and choose his own behaviours - ignore the bad and reward the good led my own very smart, very hectic-type dog to self-reward and I had to bring in compulsion when he was a bit older. I haven't broken him and he is doing really well now he knows there are things he is allowed to do and things he is absolutely not allowed to do.

He's also trained to bark on command, target and hold items on command, but has never, ever targeted me or anyone else, the cues and signals have to be very clear and it was taught over a process of weeks and months and he had a good genetic basis, it was an incredibly stupid thing for a someone to try and teach a stray dog.

The dog might have had an appalling start in life, but that shouldn't mean he is allowed to do what he wants for the rest of his life.

I can't reall see any GSD whatsoever in the dog either, if it is Johnny.


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## Spudlet (12 December 2012)

CaveCanem said:



			With clicker training, if you try it, just be careful he doesn't start offering up behaviours (sounds like he is doing this already) and choose his own behaviours - ignore the bad and reward the good led my own very smart, very hectic-type dog to self-reward and I had to bring in compulsion when he was a bit older. I haven't broken him and he is doing really well now he knows there are things he is allowed to do and things he is absolutely not allowed to do.

He's also trained to bark on command, target and hold items on command, but has never, ever targeted me or anyone else, the cues and signals have to be very clear and it was taught over a process of weeks and months and he had a good genetic basis, it was an incredibly stupid thing for a someone to try and teach a stray dog.

The dog might have had an appalling start in life, but that shouldn't mean he is allowed to do what he wants for the rest of his life.

I can't reall see any GSD whatsoever in the dog either, if it is Johnny.
		
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You are allowed to use the word 'no' even if you also own a clicker, y'know They don't make you take a sacred oath when you buy it to never ever use any form of positive punishment...


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## CorvusCorax (12 December 2012)

It depends on the dog, it depends on what the word 'no' means to the dog, how the handler reinforces what it is to be told 'no', it depends on what value and reward the dog places on certain behaviours. If the OP is a novice to clicker training, there is a lot she can get wrong. 
There have been cases on here of people going to clicker training and not even being taught how to introduce or load it properly.
If he's already 'ahead' of her there's a danger he will 'work' her, trying to activate the jackpot, rather than the other way around so there's no harm in encouraging her to keep her eyes open.

JMO though


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## Leam1307 (12 December 2012)

MurphysMinder said:



			Having seen his photo, I am even more intrigued that the rescue say they "know" he is GSDx, because I can't really see it.
		
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He has changed colour significantly since he was a pup, the lady has sent me photos which show him with what i'd call typical gsd markings, around the eyes, paws, muzzle etc. id say he was brown and light tan, now hes like a red setter. (he also has a curly tail which ive no idea where that comes from lol) when he puts his ears up to look at something he does look like a small gsd.


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## Leam1307 (12 December 2012)

CaveCanem said:



			It depends on the dog, it depends on what the word 'no' means to the dog, how the handler reinforces what it is to be told 'no', it depends on what value and reward the dog places on certain behaviours. If the OP is a novice to clicker training, there is a lot she can get wrong. 
There have been cases on here of people going to clicker training and not even being taught how to introduce or load it properly.
If he's already 'ahead' of her there's a danger he will 'work' her, trying to activate the jackpot, rather than the other way around so there's no harm in encouraging her to keep her eyes open.

JMO though 

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Thank you for this, i have never tried clicker training but have heard good things about it and i understand what you mean about him offering up behaviours. He is super smart and its alittle scary how quick he picks things up.

This is actually the same way i work with my horses, reprimand the dangerous (not violently but enough so they no this is NOT allowed) ignore the bad, praise the effort and super praise when they get it right. I figured yesterday that if i can deal with almost a half tonne of horse flying at me i can damn well deal with a 9kg pup. (made me feel abit more confident when i thought of it that way)

The trainer i had spoke to is also full for one to one sessions but has told me to check at the vets and also the scottish KC (i didnt realise there was a different site) so back to hunting about.


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## CorvusCorax (12 December 2012)

That's what I meant by a kick up the arse, I had the same epiphany, I can control a cob in a snaffle, I can bloody well stop my little dog towing me up a track! You just have to get your game head on.

What you're talking about is essentially negative then immediately positive, which I think suits a lot of the harder-headed/super-smart types, so clear message that the behaviour is incorrect, clear reward for stopping the incorrect behaviour and clear reward for executing the right behaviour.


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## Leam1307 (12 December 2012)

Thank you CaveCanem, sorry for my earlier post that was abit b*tchy, i think i was super panicked and having a stressful day, sorry to take it out on you all when you's are just trying to help with little background and not meeting the dog in question.


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## CorvusCorax (12 December 2012)

No worries, the context can be lost with the written word sometimes, like I say, best of luck with him and do hang around, we can be annoying  but mostly try to be helpful!


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## MurphysMinder (12 December 2012)

Leam1307 said:



			He has changed colour significantly since he was a pup, the lady has sent me photos which show him with what i'd call typical gsd markings, around the eyes, paws, muzzle etc. id say he was brown and light tan, now hes like a red setter. (he also has a curly tail which ive no idea where that comes from lol) when he puts his ears up to look at something he does look like a small gsd.
		
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I was more curious because you said the rescue knew he was part GSD, or are they just guessing because of his markings.  GSDs actually go lighter rather than darker as they get older (unless they are sables), so you would see more tan on him now not less.


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## Leam1307 (12 December 2012)

Hmm i never knew that, im not sure how they thought he was a gsd x he certainly looked it though as a pup, saying that i dont think ive ever seen a full red gsd, husky, collie or lab that colour so im not sure. i dont have any pics of the other litter mates so i dont know what they looked like. i know a few breeds which come with the tan markings but he doesnt look like he has any of those.

Its abit of a guessing game really, not that im bothered, i didnt ask what breed he was until we turned up to collect him. i figured they wouldnt know.


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