# I came, I saw, I almost bought....



## BunnyDog (13 December 2017)

Hi again!

I did come over and tried a bunch of horses in Ireland and Belgium. LOADS of fun and though a bit different from home (US) not too different. I wouldn't say there's a huge difference in the quality of horses, but it is a lot easier to see more in a shorter time and the prices on your side of the pond haven't gone insane like on our side. 

I did fall in love with a horse in Ireland that I'd found myself on an online advert. He was everything I was looking for and we clicked well. Unfortunately yesterday's vetting revealed some serious issues that no one was aware of. I feel badly for the horse's connections as they likely went into the day happy at the thought of a big check before xmas, and they came away with a horse that likely needs to be rested 6 months to a year. 

But all in all a very fun experience. I will likely come back again and look in the future. For now we'll just get through winter and work on selling my one resale horse and compete my others. (Which was always the plan in addition to competing any new purchases)

~Em


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## Sheep (13 December 2017)

Thanks for the update! I saw your earlier thread but didn't comment. Shame it didn't work out this time, you'll have to let us know how you get on if you choose to come back. Shame about the horse you liked, very unfortunate for all involved (but also shows the value in a good vetting!).


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## Bernster (13 December 2017)

Sounds like you had a good trip although a shame you didn't find anything.  Good luck over the winter.


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## BunnyDog (14 December 2017)

I loved trying the various horse. We sat (I brought a friend along to help me be able to watch a bit before riding, with someone who's riding style is familiar to mine) on I think 13 all told. Have video of 12. 

https://youtu.be/mc41gmj4mPc

The one that failed is the 3rd horse on this video. Shame but he should be sidelined for a long time. 

Em


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## Pinkvboots (14 December 2017)

I liked 3 the best what a shame he failed I did like the last grey as well a few of them looked quite young and green.


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## HeresHoping (14 December 2017)

Sorry for your unsuccessful visit.

First horse was lame, too. Last grey was nice.


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## Pinkvboots (14 December 2017)

HeresHoping said:



			Sorry for your unsuccessful visit.

First horse was lame, too. Last grey was nice.
		
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funnily enough I also thought the first one didn't look right the chestnut one.


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## conniegirl (14 December 2017)

HeresHoping said:



			Sorry for your unsuccessful visit.

First horse was lame, too. Last grey was nice.
		
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I though this too, but then doubted myself.
I also think the 4th one didnt look right behind, not sure if it just got its legs in a knot of if something more serious going on.


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## BunnyDog (14 December 2017)

The last grey, in the indoor, I made some of my friends here in the US buy. He was a fabulous horse and would fit in their program with students and such very well. Also good timing as they're headed to Wellington for a month this winter for the first time. He's got a lot of FEI experience and should do them proud. 

Em


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## Pinkvboots (14 December 2017)

BunnyDog said:



			The last grey, in the indoor, I made some of my friends here in the US buy. He was a fabulous horse and would fit in their program with students and such very well. Also good timing as they're headed to Wellington for a month this winter for the first time. He's got a lot of FEI experience and should do them proud. 

Em
		
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am glad he found a good home


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## HeresHoping (14 December 2017)

conniegirl said:



			I though this too, but then doubted myself.
I also think the 4th one didnt look right behind, not sure if it just got its legs in a knot of if something more serious going on.
		
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No, you're right. Something more serious going on, I think. Horses don't tend to get their legs in a knot and there was a bit of swishing. I didn't want to say, though, as I have a bit of a reputation for calling 'lame' and everyone jumping on me. 

OP - really glad the grey has a nice home. Good luck in finding something suitable.


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## BunnyDog (14 December 2017)

I would say the 4th horse just didn't get on with me. You can see his full video here:

https://youtu.be/jRn1XOWrG7g

Em


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## TheMule (14 December 2017)

Some nice horses! The one you chose definitely had the most quality, what a shame


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## conniegirl (14 December 2017)

HeresHoping said:



			No, you're right. Something more serious going on, I think. Horses don't tend to get their legs in a knot and there was a bit of swishing. I didn't want to say, though, as I have a bit of a reputation for calling 'lame' and everyone jumping on me. 

OP - really glad the grey has a nice home. Good luck in finding something suitable.
		
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i've had a few youngsters get thier legs in a knot when jumping, but they've generaly been gangly youngsters who are trying to find thier balance.


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## Northern Hare (14 December 2017)

Hi BD! 

Thanks for posting the video of the clips - it was really interesting to see all the horses you tried!  Well done as well - I've ridden only my horse for the last few years, so the thought of trying out 12 in a short space of time would fill me with dread!!  

Like you, I really liked No. 3 (the bay in the indoor school) - I thought he looked a super type - and he had a lovely jump.  To start with I hadn't realised that you tried two horses at the first yard (a chestnut and a bay), so I thought that 3 was 2, and 4 was 3 - if you see what I mean!  (Although having said all of that, I hope I haven't got that completely wrong.....)

Anyway, I just wondered how you found No. 1 to ride - it looked like you had a great ride on him (?) and you were enjoying yourself - and he had a great jump?  

What are you planning to do with your new equine friend when you find the right one - are you mainly into SJ or do you event as well?


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## BunnyDog (14 December 2017)

Northern Hare said:



			Anyway, I just wondered how you found No. 1 to ride - it looked like you had a great ride on him (?) and you were enjoying yourself - and he had a great jump?  

What are you planning to do with your new equine friend when you find the right one - are you mainly into SJ or do you event as well?
		
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Sadly #1 comes down to being a problem of pronouns. It's a chestnut mare and in the USA that's just death on a stick. Everyone is convinced they are the worst. Doesn't matter if they're talented, kind, genuine or what have you. It's near impossible to sell on a chestnut mare. True it can be done, but to do so and get over  mid 5 figures back you're having to spend money to send it to a big name rider or a sales barn with a great rep. Both of those cost you dearly and will seriously negate any return on the sale. I did enjoy her but didn't feel like she enjoyed my ride type, (wringing tail galore). That said she's the sweetest mare on the ground. Lots of experience and a fair price but I just didn't get "the" feeling with her. 

So to clarify, I am looking for a horse that's done jumpers to around 1.25m. I am good myself through 1.15 or so but I lack the experience beyond that point. I have a lovely couple of up and coming horses but to better teach them I need some more experience on my side and it would be best with a made horse. 

I made my husband the promise (after it took 5 years to sell a seriously great horse who was 15.3) that we would only buy horses that could be resold easily if we got in a pinch. So now I am one of those annoying American's who 'needs' nearly perfect vetting just to protect my investment. Now I work at a well known large animal hospital so I know very well that you can have all sorts of issues pop up on a horse that vets perfect...but I made him the deal. So I need a horse that vets well. I'm (thankfully) not a young person asking for all of this and I have been around the block plenty. I used to event but I have enjoyed jumpers more and been more successful at it. That coupled with the frightening turn in eventing with relation to deaths, has me thoroughly content to play with jumps that fall down. 

Em


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## Bernster (14 December 2017)

Ooh interesting vid thx for posting. Some great trial facilities and looks like you had a good try out.  I lost track of which horse was which though hah.


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## silv (15 December 2017)

Really interesting video, thanks for posting, I love assessing horses.

Good luck with your search.


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## ycbm (15 December 2017)

Your prices must be horrific in the US if it's worth spending over ten thousand pounds to fly these horses back home?  Can you give us some examples, I'd love to know what they sell for. Why don't dealers import whole plane loads, or do they?


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## Bernster (15 December 2017)

ycbm said:



			Your prices must be horrific in the US if it's worth spending over ten thousand pounds to fly these horses back home?  Can you give us some examples, I'd love to know what they sell for. Why don't dealers import whole plane loads, or do they?
		
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Not looked into it loads but yes I'd always understood prices in the US market are &#55357;&#56496;&#55357;&#56496;&#55357;&#56496;&#55357;&#56496;


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## ihatework (15 December 2017)

3rd Horse definitely suited you the best, such a shame on the vetting.
I was going to say that looking at the type we tried one a few weeks back that might have suited you down to the ground, but then I saw you wanted an established 1.25 Horse (although very few of those videos would fit that) - this was a 5yo Ramiro B gelding we deliberated quite a lot on.


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## Wheels (15 December 2017)

I can see why you liked no. 3 - such a shame on the vetting.


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## BunnyDog (15 December 2017)

OK so multiple things to respond to... let me go through them slowly:

1) I should clarify that horses that had shown and had a record at 1.20 was where we drew the line since my budgeted price was landing in kind of an awkward area (25k local currency)

2) All the costs to get shipped and quarantined to me is only (yes I said 'only' ha ha ) $9k USD a bit less if I put them in the 1/3rd a stall instead of a half stall.

3) I don't know if dealers put a bunch on the plane. I'm not going to a US dealer since I don't feel like losing my house. 

4) The best way to show what our market is like is to have you go to www.bigeq.com  Do an advanced search for under $30k. Then you can see what my money will get me in the states. The selection abroad is much deeper and even with the added expense of the importing I am getting more bang for my buck. This started as me trying to lease a horse for 6 months to a year to,  as I mentioned previously, to get more experience at the higher heights. Well it was a shock to my husband and I that leasing a made horse, even over the age of 15, would cost at least $10,000 for 6 months. One of the younger horses they wanted $15k for 3-4 months. My husband put his proverbial foot down and said that he was dead set against wasting our invested funds that way. We'd have nothing after the lease ended. So instead of watching 10-15k fly away we figured we would import something so in theory I can ride it for a year or so and then either sell it or join in the active money making lease market. 

The horse I vetted was even more promising because he'd evented all this year in addition to having 2 years experience doing the show jumpers. This made him instantly worth about 50-60k once he hits US soil. His asking price in Ireland is 25k euro.  Most of the horses on the video would be worth more once they hit the continent. 

For example in order:

1st horse is a 9 yr old mare with 1.35m experience and is 16.1 hands. She's chestnut so that sucks but she'd still be worth more.
2nd horse is a 7 yr old 16.2 bay mare with 1.20 experience
3rd horse already mentioned.
4th horse has experience to 1.20 and is a 5 yr old 17.2 with hunt experience as well.
5th horse is a 5 yr old mare with I think 1 show at 1.20. But largely 1.15 or 1.10. They said she was 16 hands, I doubted it.
6th horse is a 6yr old that was sold the next day to a Scottish rider. He was 17.1 and I think had experience to 1.40
7th horse is a lovely 5 yr old @ 16.1-2 that had shown 1.20 a handful of times and I believe will be a fantastic 7 yr old. Right now he's still too green. But he's only had 5 months total training. 
8th horse (first in Belgium) is an 8 yr old 17.1 with a long FEI record to 1.40 and like I mentioned I got my friends to buy him. (He had bad xrays but we knew that going in)
9th horse, this was my least favorite. 7 yr old gelding around 16.1 they said he'd done 1.20 but in the school he stopped at a .90 vertical.  
10th horse, LOVELY Diadoro (?) gelding, 7 yr old. 16.1 Quite friendly and a looker. Lovely mover, jumps well.
11th horse, I will be sharing this one to my friends on Facebook this weekend. He's a neat horse. I think a 7yr old who has a record to 1.25 or so. Successful and a very typey bascule jumper. Stood 16.3 I think. 

All of these horses would be worth more than the prices on them in their home country. Hence why it made sense to hop the pond and look around. I did try to have my friend in Ireland, who is American but has lived there 15 years, set up the appointments for me so I didn't automatically get the prices raised when I show up as an American. But largely I saw horses advertised with active prices listed online. 

Em


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## Northern Hare (15 December 2017)

This has to be my favourite ever thread on H&H - it's great to hear about our horse market from a totally different perspective!

Thanks also for responding with such a detailed reply ref your thoughts on the chestnut mare (No. 1) - it is really interesting to hear how chestnut mares are perceived across the pond. In the UK, there's is always the usual "chestnut mare" comment but not to the extent that it would put me off buying a good one if it came to it.

As a young pony-mad child, my Godmother from the US gave me a wonderful kids story book about a young American girl who was given a pony for Christmas - and I remember so clearly all the illustrations of the pony in the "barn" with beautiful white fencing around all the paddocks! 

Ever since then, I've been fascinated about the horse scene in the US - and the distances you have to travel to show centres. It's so different to over here where by contrast we have relatively short distances to travel (even up here in the North of England), and the majority of the time we can compete and travel on the same day.

Btw, if you are ever re-visiting Ireland, I'd really recommend getting in touch with William Micklem (the designer of the Micklem bridle!). He is not a dealer, but has many contacts throughout Ireland and has sourced horses for many US riders including Karen and David O'Connor. William has a website with lots of info. He's an amazing and very talented horseman.


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## BunnyDog (15 December 2017)

Northern Hare said:



			This has to be my favourite ever thread on H&H - it's great to hear about our horse market from a totally different perspective!

Thanks also for responding with such a detailed reply ref your thoughts on the chestnut mare (No. 1) - it is really interesting to hear how chestnut mares are perceived across the pond. In the UK, there's is always the usual "chestnut mare" comment but not to the extent that it would put me off buying a good one if it came to it.

As a young pony-mad child, my Godmother from the US gave me a wonderful kids story book about a young American girl who was given a pony for Christmas - and I remember so clearly all the illustrations of the pony in the "barn" with beautiful white fencing around all the paddocks! 

Ever since then, I've been fascinated about the horse scene in the US - and the distances you have to travel to show centres. It's so different to over here where by contrast we have relatively short distances to travel (even up here in the North of England), and the majority of the time we can compete and travel on the same day.

Btw, if you are ever re-visiting Ireland, I'd really recommend getting in touch with William Micklem (the designer of the Micklem bridle!). He is not a dealer, but has many contacts throughout Ireland and has sourced horses for many US riders including Karen and David O'Connor. William has a website with lots of info. He's an amazing and very talented horseman.
		
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I am very very fortunate that I am located in Pennsylvania near the local hub equine city of Unionville. While we are mostly known as the hot bed of Eventing (Home to Boyd Martin, Phillip Dutton, Bruce Davidson, Jennie Brannigan and many more) we still are known for other Equestrian celebrities as well. While the show jumping presence here is quite light comparatively I am very easily able to compete at shows within 3 hours and under all year. Now I still do choose to go a bit further for some nicer shows sometimes but I don't have the long hauls here that I had when I lived in Los Angeles. Out west in the wrong area you can be looking at 4-8 hours one way easy. Most barns have dealt with this by investing in a living quarters trailer. Basically a trailer that comes with a bed, pull out sofa and the like. It has kitchens, bathrooms with showers and power hookups to make life easier. 

It's funny you mention the white fence lines. The Kentucky Horse Park, home to the annual 4* (Which used to be called the Rolex 3 Day Event but has been renamed this year to the Land Rover Three Day Event) has just shifted their iconic white fence lines to the more usual black fence lines. It's been reported this was a huge annual savings on upkeep. 

I have to say I love everything about your horse market. The only thing that I notice more quickly is that some sellers might be better off if they understood that a picture of a horse jumping in poor form, even over a bigger fence, is not the best first impression to make to a buyer. Admittedly my husband is a former professional photographer and for that I am spoiled, but here we are constantly trying to teach sellers that there absolutely is such a thing as a bad first impression and a good one. Having spent more time on Horsequest, HorseScout, H&H listings, Irish Horse gateway and many more, I can now grasp that this is an international challenge no doubt made worse by cell phone cameras.  Really folks.... don't post the bad shots.  Less shots with better form is a much better option. 


I've been dying to ask from earlier comments, what is a horse with a 'knot in it's leg?"

Em


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## ycbm (15 December 2017)

Really fascinating insight into the US, thank you Em. 

A horse with its legs in knots has momentarily lost its coordination and is placing the feet on the floor in the wrong order or disrupted rhythm. It's a common UK saying, I posted about my own horse doing it a month ago, and bucking to get himself out of it and giving me a bloody nose!


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## ihatework (15 December 2017)

Did you manage to get over to Belgium too? Id be interested to know how that compared.

Weve just had our 4th in a row fail X-rays. Its getting tedious!


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## BunnyDog (15 December 2017)

ycbm said:



			Really fascinating insight into the US, thank you Em. 

A horse with its legs in knots has momentarily lost its coordination and is placing the feet on the floor in the wrong order or disrupted rhythm. It's a common UK saying, I posted about my own horse doing it a month ago, and bucking to get himself out of it and giving me a bloody nose!
		
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Oh ok. It's just called Cross cantering here. Usually on horses lacking a lot of good flatwork, and sure some that may have issues as well. OUCH!!!! Bloody noses are not ideal!



ihatework said:



			Did you manage to get over to Belgium too? Id be interested to know how that compared.

Weve just had our 4th in a row fail X-rays. Its getting tedious!
		
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I did. 2 days in Belgium. 1 day spent looking at the last 4 on the video. And one day where my friend and I literally slept 12 hours catching up on sleep and letting the jet lag win. However we did get to the local tack shop (Horses2me) and went to downtown Brussels for a winter festival and dinner. It was wholly lovely and the driving and streets were a bit better in Belgium. In Ireland we did a poor job maximizing where we drove, so we logged about 11 hours in the car in 2 days in Ireland. Nowhere close to that much in Belgium.

I was told Belgian horses would be further along in their flatwork, but honestly with the 4 we saw I don't know that'd I would say that was noticeably true. The fence hopper was poorly responsive, but the 3 others were very talented. Just as the Irish ones we tried were, with the possible exception of the small mare and the 5 yr old with 5 months training. 

Em


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## milliepops (15 December 2017)

Northern Hare said:



			This has to be my favourite ever thread on H&H - it's great to hear about our horse market from a totally different perspective!

Thanks also for responding with such a detailed reply ref your thoughts on the chestnut mare (No. 1) - it is really interesting to hear how chestnut mares are perceived across the pond. In the UK, there's is always the usual "chestnut mare" comment but not to the extent that it would put me off buying a good one if it came to it.
		
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agree, really interesting and :eek3: :eek3: about the prices over there, *now* I understand why my OH was keen for me to sell Kira when some American buyers he knew were looking for a section D    She must be worth a fortune 

Funny how the chestnut mare thing crosses the international boundaries isn't it. People look at me like I'm mad having just bought a second one :wink3: I just think I got a nice horse


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## ycbm (15 December 2017)

Oh ok. It's just called Cross cantering here. Usually on horses lacking a lot of good flatwork, and sure some that may have issues as well.
		
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 I suspect that's what we call cantering disunited. A horse can canter dusunited without tying its legs in knots. Some of them are quite good at it .  Legs in knots is a serious lack of balance which would quickly make the horse fall over if it didn't sort itself out.


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## Northern (15 December 2017)

Thanks so much for your video and explanations  So interesting to compare the horse market between two places I have no experience in. The market here (Australia) is quite flat at the moment, and from what I have seen there aren't too many horses like those in your video around. Though I suspect many of them sell via word of mouth in the equine circles. I see what you mean about the American Market, I was quite shocked when I searched your link as you suggested


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## BunnyDog (15 December 2017)

Ok so for more fun and picking on my compatriots....

Example a: Here is footage of my solid as heck packer. He's an American Thoroughbred who ran 4 races and finished dead last in all of them. He's 15.3 and 3/4" So not 16 hands though many sellers would have said he was. I didn't. 

Because he was under 16 hands and had a miniscule OCD on his saggital ridge it took me 5 years to sell him. But I did get my asking price. Another inch or two and some more white and he would have been worth more. Even with the OCD. 

I'm gonna share my worst video because it shows how genuine he was (This was a class over 4' fences (1.20+) and also it proves how I need work on bigger jumps. 

https://youtu.be/u2A5xwAJLAI

He evented, did jumpers, hunters, and was a safe kids horse. Brought home a ribbon every outing.

That's when I was confirmed to abhor the American market. I got $15k for him. (11,300 in GBP)

Em


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## Northern Hare (15 December 2017)

He's a lovely kind horse, thanks for posting the clip! Did you buy him "off the track"?  The setting of the show looked wonderful! 

I don't know if it's the same in the US but over here we have flat racing and jump racing with steeplechase (ie. the Grand National) and hurdle races. The flat racing bred horses tend to be finer younger horses and the steeplechasers more substantial type TB's. There are sales for ex-racehorses, and many event riders favour the jump bred horses and do very well re-training the horses to jump and event.

Can I ask, when you say "hunters" is that the jumping class that is judged on style as well as jump penalties?  I saw a similar class at Dublin Horse Show a few years ago.  The horses were ridden in a more forward / longer outline, but they jumped really nicely.


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## BunnyDog (15 December 2017)

I did but him off the track. Through a CANTER affiliate at one of the tracks in Pennsylvania. 

(www.canterusa.org) Complete opposite of bigeq.com. TONS of ottb (off track throughbreds very cheap) Thoroughbreds were the go to breed for a long time but now it's more preferable to have a warmblood. Long story. 

So here's a good hunter round. It's unlike anything else in the horse showing world. And it's kind of a very subjective elitist thing. 

https://youtu.be/eGiueH8DenI

Emily


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## ycbm (15 December 2017)

BunnyDog said:



			I did but him off the track. Through a CANTER affiliate at one of the tracks in Pennsylvania. 

(www.canterusa.org) Complete opposite of bigeq.com. TONS of ottb (off track throughbreds very cheap) Thoroughbreds were the go to breed for a long time but now it's more preferable to have a warmblood. Long story. 

So here's a good hunter round. It's unlike anything else in the horse showing world. And it's kind of a very subjective elitist thing. 

https://youtu.be/eGiueH8DenI

Emily
		
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That is seriously weird. Why would anyone want to lumber around the ring on the forehand  on a horse heaving itself over fences and chucking the rider forwards as it plunges into the floor on landing?  That wins prizes??


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## BunnyDog (16 December 2017)

ycbm said:



			That is seriously weird. Why would anyone want to lumber around the ring on the forehand  on a horse heaving itself over fences and chucking the rider forwards as it plunges into the floor on landing?  That wins prizes??
		
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Ohhh yea. In that case, that was a class worth $100,000. The deal is that by and large the hunter classes are judged on the horse's way of jumping and it's ability to maintain a consistent rhythm. "Catch Me" does jump well and is very adjustable and rhythmic. 

Scott (the rider) is by far one of (if not the) best hunter riders in the USA. 

The pony divisions are better...

https://youtu.be/gSvP4nmLfzA

This is Lillie Keenan 8 years ago. She is one of the top US show jumpers now. 

Emily


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## Equi (16 December 2017)

Ill admit i did not like the 3rd horse at all in that video.

Not true though, i actually thought he was lovely.


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## ycbm (16 December 2017)

BunnyDog said:



			Ohhh yea. In that case, that was a class worth $100,000. The deal is that by and large the hunter classes are judged on the horse's way of jumping and it's ability to maintain a consistent rhythm. "Catch Me" does jump well and is very adjustable and rhythmic.
		
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How much ¡!!!¡¡!?




			Scott (the rider) is by far one of (if not the) best hunter riders in the USA.
		
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That's how he's managing to stop himself being thrown up the horse's neck as it lands. 



The horse couldn't possibly jump anything of a serious height, width or complexity, like a treble, from that long, low, frame, could he?. It's just a weird kind of show class, I guess.


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## Cortez (16 December 2017)

ycbm said:



			How much ¡!!!¡¡!?



That's how he's managing to stop himself being thrown up the horse's neck as it lands. 



The horse couldn't possibly jump anything of a serious height, width or complexity, like a treble, from that long, low, frame, could he?. It's just a weird kind of show class, I guess.
		
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American Hunter classes are a very strange phenomenon, but they are one of the most lucrative markets in the USA. I once bred an entirely duff dressage horse that went on to be one of the highest priced Hunter Jumper horses sold in the early '90's (he funded my return to Ireland, bless him 

**I didn't train him - couldn't bring myself to make him flop around like that, but he absolutely loved it!


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## ycbm (16 December 2017)

Cortez said:



			American Hunter classes are a very strange phenomenon, but they are one of the most lucrative markets in the USA. I once bred an entirely duff dressage horse that went on to be one of the highest priced Hunter Jumper horses sold in the early '90's (he funded my return to Ireland, bless him 

**I didn't train him - couldn't bring myself to make him flop around like that, but he absolutely loved it!
		
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Made my cold, miserable, snowy morning much better, thank you.


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## Northern Hare (16 December 2017)

BunnyDog said:



			Ohhh yea. In that case, that was a class worth $100,000. The deal is that by and large the hunter classes are judged on the horse's way of jumping and it's ability to maintain a consistent rhythm. "Catch Me" does jump well and is very adjustable and rhythmic. 

Scott (the rider) is by far one of (if not the) best hunter riders in the USA. 

The pony divisions are better...

https://youtu.be/gSvP4nmLfzA

This is Lillie Keenan 8 years ago. She is one of the top US show jumpers now. 

Emily
		
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Hi BD! 

Thanks for the other Hunter Class clips!  I remember hearing the commentator at Dublin Horse Show saying that the good US Hunters change hands for hundreds of thousands of dollars in some cases, so it obviously has a huge following over there - and I guess sponsorship for the classes?  

I guess the nearest we'd get to Hunter Classes is the "Working Hunter" competition, which is a show class - the horses jump a track of natural show jumping type fences (but no coloured poles).  I'm no WH expert but from memory, the judge awards the horse and rider combination points for style/way of going, plus also points deducted for poles down/stops.  However the way of going is very different to the horses on those clips in the US Hunter Class - it's far more like eventing show jumping style rather than "long and low".  The best WH's look like they're jumping everything from a regular stride with minimal adjustment of stride before the fences, which are a fair size when you get to Horse of the Year Show etc!

When looking that the prices you quoted for buying a decent SJ horse over in the US, that makes me wonder why more riders don't come to the UK / Ireland / Europe to buy horses to ship back - the potential profits seem really enormous to me.  I suppose it's all down to risk isn't it?  Would you be able to buy say two or three young unbroken horses with good breeding lines, shipping them back to the US and then bring them on over there to produce and sell on?  I appreciate that you still need something to ride at the moment though, but the figures you quote would make that quite appealing!

Btw, have you looked at the Billy Stud over here?  The Stud has recently had a big Auction of their youngstock but it took place online which is quite a new thing over here.  The "Billy" stock is doing really well with some great Billy horses coming through and they use really good bloodlines for their breeding programme.


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## BunnyDog (16 December 2017)

So the thing is that when H&H puts out the pictures of the HOYS Working Hunter Course, MANY American riders have gone on social media wishing that our courses were more like it. I think that the newer Hunter Derby courses are meant to give riders a middle ground that is not as mind numbingly boring* (my opinion) but also with the derby courses there's a bit more understanding about horses not going like a machine. See in regular hunter classes the judges have historically rewarded the horses that go the best but also who show no reactions like a regular horse. A head shake, a slight happy kick out or buck. So as a result we have had the problem of the hunter horses being lunged for hours on end so that they won't show any 'emotions' or disobediences. Also many many hunters live on a product called Perfect Prep. http://www.perfectproductseq.com/ 

The ironic part is that the USEF (US equestrian federation) has rules saying you're not supposed to be allowed to use any tranquilizers, but they're fine with this stuff. 

Ok so this is what a derby course looks like:

This particular video is great because it shows the differences side by side in the champion and reserve in the 2014 Hunter Derby National Championship. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8VpOUw3bRY

Here's the rules and payout page... (This is a HUGE money industry)

https://www.ushja.org/programs/ihd/finals_default.aspx

But this type of class exists at local/regional classes also. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7f-CVvLRxw   (I don't know this rider but it's from a show near me)



Now back to your other questions. I have seen the Billy horses but where I am from a outfit like that would be adding $10k or so to the prices of their horses. So out of habit I have avoided the big outfits in the UK/Europe because I thought the same rules would apply. I really would just like to find someone like me who has done a good job with their horse but has to sell as that's the plan. I get cautious around dealers as I know how to dig deep and research and find a nice horse myself. I have time and I prefer not to give away money to have someone just help me connect the dots. This is definitely because US trainers have a habit of screwing people over.

http://dressage-news.com/2017/10/09...d-in-florida-for-alleged-fraud-in-horse-sale/


It's a prevalent enough thing that a few states have made laws that you MUST disclose all commissions in a horse sale in writing. 

As for why I don't bring over a bunch of young horses, they would all cost me $9k to come on the plane. So no discount there. As much as I would love to ride more, I have a full time job and the barn I rent is only 4 stalls on 3 acres. I have 4 horses now, but one is about to go spend the winter turned out at a friends farm. So I have room for 1. And then if/when my resale horse sells, I can get my turned out horse back....and hopefully by then he'll be better/sound. (He had a bone bruise in his front hoof this year)

Emily

(Sorry for the delay....silly time zones)


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## Bernster (16 December 2017)

Interesting vid of the hunter round. Lovely horse.  I can see how it looks a nice and easy horse, and kind of lopes around, but that does look to my UK rider eyes like a bit of a lumbering way to jump!  I do wonder how much of this is fashion and how different regions or cultures look for different ways of going. The Chilean cowboys display at Olympia, mentioned on another thread, is another good example.


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## Sheep (16 December 2017)

This thread is so interesting, I keep coming back to read updates! Fascinating to see the differences. Keep us posted BunnyDog on how the search goes!


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## BunnyDog (16 December 2017)

Ok so now I'm the one that needs some explanations. 

I just went to YouTube and watched some of the HOYS Working Hunter rounds. Without sounding judgy, the two riders I saw looked a bit loose in the tack. Now admittedly the courses were different and the horses had a lot to look at. But is it typical that the riders at the HOYS divisions can be a bit green too? (Maybe not green but loose.)

The closest thing we have to that is that we have the Fox Hunters classes in some of the shows and the fox hunters in the USA are competing over 2'6 - 3' and even then they can be loose. But many are very secure. Just not all. 

Em


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## ycbm (16 December 2017)

BD I'm no working hunter expert or anywhere near it, but my understanding is that the rider is not being judged, just the horse. So if the horse jumps well, clean and has great conformation, movement and behaviour in the flatework  showing section that comes afterwards, they could win with a rider riding like a sack of spuds. 

I'm sure I'll be corrected if that's not right, but it's what happened when I won a local class.


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## Orangehorse (16 December 2017)

Hi BunnyDog.  This is really interesting.

Regarding the Working Hunter, they have all qualified to be at the show, but some qualifiers are tougher than others so there will be some less experienced combinations getting through.  The courses for Working Hunter in the UK can be quite hard, with bullfinches, narrow fences, combinations, gates.  I once watched a class and none of them had a clear round, even the ones who came into the ring looking as if they were going to.

Similarly, I once watched the competitors in the collection ring for the Hunter Championship at the Horse of the Year Show in the early rounds and there were horses there with less than perfect conformation.  Considering that they had all won a qualifier I was quite surprised, but the top horses going into the final are going to be best in looks and performance.

In the UK too, it is the horse that wins, the rider doesn't get any marks (as far as I am aware) in any showing class apart from overall impression.


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## conniegirl (16 December 2017)

Orangehorse said:



			Hi BunnyDog.  This is really interesting.

Regarding the Working Hunter, they have all qualified to be at the show, but some qualifiers are tougher than others so there will be some less experienced combinations getting through.  The courses for Working Hunter in the UK can be quite hard, with bullfinches, narrow fences, combinations, gates.  I once watched a class and none of them had a clear round, even the ones who came into the ring looking as if they were going to.
.
		
Click to expand...

I don&#8217;t know if they still do but the Derbyshire festival Hoys Wh classs used to use part of th XC course including a proper water jump with a drop into it, a jump in the water and then a jump out of the water.


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## cundlegreen (17 December 2017)

ycbm said:



			BD I'm no working hunter expert or anywhere near it, but my understanding is that the rider is not being judged, just the horse. So if the horse jumps well, clean and has great conformation, movement and behaviour in the flatework  showing section that comes afterwards, they could win with a rider riding like a sack of spuds. 

I'm sure I'll be corrected if that's not right, but it's what happened when I won a local class.
		
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As somebody who has produced a little TB mare to get to the final judging at HOYS, and also got placed at the RIHS in the workers, you can't ride like a sack of potatoes at those events and get away with it. The HOYS track I jumped, had only 7 clears out of 35, and the fences were all above Foxhunter height, with very wide oxers. A clear round there is no fluke, and style has a lot to do with the final judging, as well as the ride mark, which the american hunters don't seem to have? I thought the grey jumping in the hunter class was a lovely example of a stylish, well balanced ride. Always on the correct lead, with no change of pace throughout the round. I'm sure this horse could jump far higher when collected up, but that's not what they are looking for, is it? BTW, why the flapping standing martingales? Is the that "de rigeur?? "


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## BunnyDog (18 December 2017)

cundlegreen said:



			BTW, why the flapping standing martingales? Is the that "de rigeur?? "
		
Click to expand...

Absolutely part of the unofficial uniform in track.  

D ring or Pelham bit, regular caveson that matches the brow band.  Standing Martingale. Laced reins.  Fitted pad with half pad.  Boots not allowed on the horse and braided with between 50 - 75 braids. 

Em


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## j1ffy (18 December 2017)

BunnyDog said:



			Absolutely part of the unofficial uniform in track.  

D ring or Pelham bit, regular caveson that matches the brow band.  Standing Martingale. Laced reins.  Fitted pad with half pad.  Boots not allowed on the horse and braided with between 50 - 75 braids. 

Em
		
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I think my fingers would fall off if I had to do 50-75 braids (or plaits as we call them)! I much prefer my 7-8 big fat dressage plaits 

This is a very interesting thread, thank you for sharing so much info about the US market! A friend of mine is based out there and had a OTTB that she produced for the hunter classes, and sold for over $20k. She couldn't believe how little I paid for my Spanish horses, particularly my first one who had all the lateral work, Spanish walk and piaffe. 

Just FYI BD as Cundlegreen referenced 'Foxhunter height' - here in the UK Foxhunter is a show jumping class that is 1.20m (4ft-ish), bigger in the jump-off. It's quite a prestigious class to get to the final of, it's often a starting place for future stars. I think that's all correct, I'm definitely not a show jumper!!


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## LeannePip (18 December 2017)

Wow, this has been super interesting Em - thank you for sharing!  The world of hunters has always baffled me so great to hear more about it!

A young stallion i worked with was sold to the US after I left, he did really well in age classes over here and was jumping 1.30 when he left I imagine he was approx £30k?  He is now very successful in the hunter world popping round 90-1m tracks and I couldn't believe someone would pay that for a horse to jump average heights but turns out he was probably a bargain!


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## ycbm (18 December 2017)

cundlegreen said:



			As somebody who has produced a little TB mare to get to the final judging at HOYS, and also got placed at the RIHS in the workers, you can't ride like a sack of potatoes at those events and get away with it. The HOYS track I jumped, had only 7 clears out of 35, and the fences were all above Foxhunter height, with very wide oxers. A clear round there is no fluke, and style has a lot to do with the final judging, as well as the ride mark,
		
Click to expand...

Can you clarify for those of us who don't show at that level. The riders are not marked, are they? Would it be possible for a great horse to jump a clear round with a rider with an effective but less than pretty show jumping style, and beat a worse conformed horse with a rider who rode perfectly?


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## ihatework (18 December 2017)

ycbm said:



			Can you clarify for those of us who don't show at that level. The riders are not marked, are they? Would it be possible for a great horse to jump a clear round with a rider with an effective but less than pretty show jumping style, and beat a worse conformed horse with a rider who rode perfectly?
		
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Being completely facetious but it would probably completely depend on what &#8216;name&#8217; was riding and how much of the bad confo was covered up by condition!!

One would hope the best put together, jumping and moving horse would win irrespective of who was on top but ....


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## Northern Hare (18 December 2017)

Hi again BunnyDog!  Thanks for all the updates you've posted over the weekend - it's so fascinating to hear all about the hunter showing over with you - and all the braiding you have to do if you show a hunter!!!

I've re-read your post about when you were looking to lease an experienced show jumper and how much you would have to pay for such a short lease - that's an amazing amount of money!!  I don't believe that short term leasing of experienced jumpers is very common over here but those with more experience of show jumping will be able to correct me!  I obviously quite understand why you wouldn't be able to buy a handful of youngsters and ship them over to the US to break and bring on - but I hope that you find your perfect show jumper soon!

Sorry to keep going off-thread, but I was wondering how the horse-owners in your area keep your horses - I'd be fascinated to hear? 

Over here unless you own land, you generally keep your horse or pony at a livery yard.  These yards typically offer different types of Livery - including grass livery, "diy" livery where you pay for the stable/grazing and do the rest yourself, or alternatively part/full livery where the owner usually leaves the day-to-day care (and sometimes exercise as well) to the livery yard to look after.  Livery yards can be small with up to 10 horses, but some are far bigger (up to 100+) and some are located at a show centre.

We live up in the North of England but I have lived in other areas, and my personal view is that in the UK, that DIY livery is the most popular.  Livery prices obviously vary a lot depending on services and also the area of the country - with the South of England being way more expensive that where we are up in the North! 

As an example, due to work commitments, I keep my horse (TBxWB) on "Part Livery" which includes grazing/feed/bedding/turning out/bringing in/standing with vet and farrier/use of indoor school & outdoor/parking for trailer/excellent off-road hacking.  I can have "extras" such as my horse being ridden, but those are obviously charged as extras.  For my livery, I pay approx. £90 per week, which is around $120 per week.  For DIY at the same yard, it would be around £35 / $45 per week, and this just includes grazing, stable and use of schools / trailer parking / hacking.  

In the US, would you say that DIY Livery is the most popular way to keep your horse - and also, how do the livery prices above compare to where you keep your horses?


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## ycbm (18 December 2017)

ihatework said:



			Being completely facetious but it would probably completely depend on what &#8216;name&#8217; was riding and how much of the bad confo was covered up by condition!!

One would hope the best put together, jumping and moving horse would win irrespective of who was on top but ....
		
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I know in my day it was said that Robert Oliver could ride a donkey and win a hunter class


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## j1ffy (18 December 2017)

Northern Hare said:



			Hi again BunnyDog!  Thanks for all the updates you've posted over the weekend - it's so fascinating to hear all about the hunter showing over with you - and all the braiding you have to do if you show a hunter!!!

I've re-read your post about when you were looking to lease an experienced show jumper and how much you would have to pay for such a short lease - that's an amazing amount of money!!  I don't believe that short term leasing of experienced jumpers is very common over here but those with more experience of show jumping will be able to correct me!  I obviously quite understand why you wouldn't be able to buy a handful of youngsters and ship them over to the US to break and bring on - but I hope that you find your perfect show jumper soon!

Sorry to keep going off-thread, but I was wondering how the horse-owners in your area keep your horses - I'd be fascinated to hear? 

Over here unless you own land, you generally keep your horse or pony at a livery yard.  These yards typically offer different types of Livery - including grass livery, "diy" livery where you pay for the stable/grazing and do the rest yourself, or alternatively part/full livery where the owner usually leaves the day-to-day care (and sometimes exercise as well) to the livery yard to look after.  Livery yards can be small with up to 10 horses, but some are far bigger (up to 100+) and some are located at a show centre.

We live up in the North of England but I have lived in other areas, and my personal view is that in the UK, that DIY livery is the most popular.  Livery prices obviously vary a lot depending on services and also the area of the country - with the South of England being way more expensive that where we are up in the North! 

As an example, due to work commitments, I keep my horse (TBxWB) on "Part Livery" which includes grazing/feed/bedding/turning out/bringing in/standing with vet and farrier/use of indoor school & outdoor/parking for trailer/excellent off-road hacking.  I can have "extras" such as my horse being ridden, but those are obviously charged as extras.  For my livery, I pay approx. £90 per week, which is around $120 per week.  For DIY at the same yard, it would be around £35 / $45 per week, and this just includes grazing, stable and use of schools / trailer parking / hacking.  

In the US, would you say that DIY Livery is the most popular way to keep your horse - and also, how do the livery prices above compare to where you keep your horses?
		
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NorthernHare - you may find this old post interesting: http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...es-horse-riding-look-like-where-you-re-living


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## ycbm (18 December 2017)

And this one.


https://forums-secure.horseandhound.co.uk/showthread.php?715716-Differences-in-other-countries


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## BunnyDog (18 December 2017)

Hi Guys!!!

Ok so 'livery' in England is 'boarding' in the US. 

You can literally run the gamut on prices and amenities. For example... the last barn I kept two of mine at was 13 mins from work. It had a smaller indoor that unfortunately had rocks mixed into the footing. Bad enough that I eventually left as it was bothering my thin soled guy. It was 'self care' which I assume is the equivalent to full 'diy' there. They did feed them for me once a day but beyond that mucking, turning out, turning in, night feed and blanketing and un-blanketing was all on me. Not a big deal. That place was $250/mo. There was no outdoor arena and very limited hacking out. 

Before that I was practically in luxury on a much larger farm with larger fields and an outdoor. There was a bit of mini xc jumps and a lots of areas to ride out. However the personalities of the owners were a bit tough. That was also self care and it cost $200 a head but they wouldn't do anything. So that was feeding twice a day, mucking blanketing etc. A lot of the time I had my guys living out in an 8 acre field with a huge run in shed made of cinder block that had a hay feeder in it. We would stick a round bale in the shed 1x a month during the winter and it was good. But the field was at the end of a 3/4 mile driveway off the road. And one time when we got 3 feet of snow (almost a full 1 meter) the owners decided they didn't need to plow the driveway for us to be able to feed my guys. They had hay and an automatic waterer in the field and as such they didn't need human interference. Of course this happened when I was away on a vacation so my poor horse sitters had to walk from the road down and back 1.5 miles in waist high snow. And then when I got back I had to pay a local farmer to clear the road (to the tune of $400) because the owners refused. Good thing I didn't need a vet out. 

Ok so over here the most popular care is called "Full board." With this everything is covered (Feeding, mucking, turnout) Now you may have to pay extras (blanketing changes, holding for vet, farrier, etc and any thing like special feed, extra supplements or added hay)

After that we have Field board. They live in the field and get fed, hayed and watered. 

After that we have Co-op board. Imagine self care, but less days a week and more horses. You have enough people (3-6) who share the work over the course of a week. 

Full board can be anywhere from $600/month to $2500 month with respect to the amenities and location/demand. $600 around me will get you a decent barn with ok turnout areas and an outdoor ring. 

The barns with indoors are closer to $1k a month. 

Field board is between $300-$450 a month

Self care is $200-$300

Co op is $250-$450 depending on amenities. 

If you have a trainer at a barn now the thing is full board with 4-8 lessons included. 

The boarding situation near me:

http://equinemarketer.com/boarding.html Lots of variety depending on where you want to be. 



Ok back to my horse hunt....

If a horse (That's in England) was advertised as having a solid 1.30 record and you pull it's record from 2011-May 2017 and you see 0 1.30 classes. Would you say it had a solid 1.30 record???

Especially when it's been eliminated before (3 x) at 1.10 and 1.20????

Em


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## ycbm (18 December 2017)

Emily if you see anything North West England and want someone to give it a look over to spot anything obvious, I'd be happy to do that for you. I wouldn't jump it but I'm good at spotting flaws!

We rug here, we don't blanket. Blankets go under rugs.

No, that horse does not have a solid 1m 30 record!


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## BunnyDog (18 December 2017)

ycbm said:



			We rug here, we don't blanket. Blankets go under rugs.

No, that horse does not have a solid 1m 30 record!
		
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Ok so what does a Rambo turnout qualify as? A rug or a blanket?

Thanks for the volunteering of help!!!! I'll take all the assistance I can get!!!

Em


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## j1ffy (18 December 2017)

BunnyDog said:



			Ok so what does a Rambo turnout qualify as? A rug or a blanket?

Thanks for the volunteering of help!!!! I'll take all the assistance I can get!!!

Em
		
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Definitely a rug!

I&#8217;ve never put a blanket under a rug...


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## ihatework (18 December 2017)

Bunnydog im going to PM you the name of a horse that would fit your spec almost exactly. Last I heard it was doing the dealer rounds in NW England after it failed a vetting (I vetted it from the producer). It would be an easy one to get sucked into


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## ycbm (18 December 2017)

j1ffy said:



			Definitely a rug!

I&#8217;ve never put a blanket under a rug...
		
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You're young!  We used to have only jute rugs and blankets available.


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## BunnyDog (18 December 2017)

Ha ha ha. 

I will scare you guys. 

When it was a high of 10 degrees Farenheit with 30 mile per hour winds, making the actual feel more like -10 farenheit (-23 C) I had my guys living outside in the big shed. They had on 3 medium weight turnout blankets with a full coat of hair. The top blanket on each had a neck at least. 

Em


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## j1ffy (18 December 2017)

ycbm said:



			You're young!  We used to have only jute rugs and blankets available.
		
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Haha, sadly not that young any more!!


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## j1ffy (18 December 2017)

BunnyDog said:



			Ha ha ha. 

I will scare you guys. 

When it was a high of 10 degrees Farenheit with 30 mile per hour winds, making the actual feel more like -10 farenheit (-23 C) I had my guys living outside in the big shed. They had on 3 medium weight turnout blankets with a full coat of hair. The top blanket on each had a neck at least. 

Em
		
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Brrrr. Mind you, I worked in the Far East of Russia for a few months and used to ride a bit there (just hacking), and the horses were outside in -20 and below. I left in late November so I imagine it got colder too. I don&#8217;t remember seeing any rugs! Hacking through the snow was great fun


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## cundlegreen (18 December 2017)

ycbm said:



			Can you clarify for those of us who don't show at that level. The riders are not marked, are they? Would it be possible for a great horse to jump a clear round with a rider with an effective but less than pretty show jumping style, and beat a worse conformed horse with a rider who rode perfectly?
		
Click to expand...

Yes, it is. BUT.... there are 20 marks for the judge ride, and for confo as well, that can make a big difference to the final placing. Also a "sack of potatoes" rider does tend to take down the style mark. My little mare has twice qualified for RIHS this year with a knockdown, beating clear rounds, because she gave the top ride of the class.


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## cundlegreen (18 December 2017)

ycbm said:



			I know in my day it was said that Robert Oliver could ride a donkey and win a hunter class 

Click to expand...

this is why I do Working Hunters. There are marks, unlike the show classes. There is no doubt, that the "pros" do make a better job of riding these horses too.


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## BunnyDog (18 December 2017)

cundlegreen said:



			this is why I do Working Hunters. There are marks, unlike the show classes. There is no doubt, that the "pros" do make a better job of riding these horses too.
		
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Can we translate this a bit more??? Are you saying the entries get scores (like dressage) on certain things ? Also... can you guys see the final scores? There's a big hullaballoo right now over asking to see judges cards and whether or not a paying rider should be allowed to see what the judge wrote down. 

Em


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## Meowy Catkin (19 December 2017)

All of the mark sheets from HOYS are put online.  http://hoys.co.uk/competitor-zone/mark-sheets/


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## ester (19 December 2017)

There are marks for all show classes not just workers?!

BD yes you can see the scores after the class, ride mark and confo mark so not very specific. Native pony champs at olympia yesterday had 4 scores due to multiple judges so then you could see the differences of opinion too


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## BunnyDog (19 December 2017)

Jumping topic...a little...

IS anyone reading this in Ireland? Near-ish to Dublin???

Em


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## Wheels (19 December 2017)

I'm in Northern Ireland- couple of hours from Dublin

Why do you ask?


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## BunnyDog (19 December 2017)

Seeing if anyone from that area might know a person who competes in jumpers. This is by far the biggest hail Mary idea I've got. 

Em


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## only_me (19 December 2017)

https://www.donedeal.ie/horses-for-sale/longfield-trinity-showjumper/17231649
https://www.donedeal.ie/horses-for-sale/7yr-showjumping-mare/17140216


I'm quite tempted by this one must admit 
https://www.donedeal.ie/horses-for-sale/16-1hh-irish-draught-gelding/17544287


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## cundlegreen (19 December 2017)

Faracat said:



			All of the mark sheets from HOYS are put online.  http://hoys.co.uk/competitor-zone/mark-sheets/

Click to expand...

Yes, and look how few got clear. Some end up with minus marks! I was impressed to see the winner got 20 for ride. my mare has managed 19 a couple of times, and I was thrilled as she is very pony like. To answer a previous question, there are no marks for the show hunters, hacks, cobs or riding horse classes, apart from supreme championships.


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## tristar (19 December 2017)

have a place not far from dublin


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## Cortez (19 December 2017)

BunnyDog said:



			Jumping topic...a little...

IS anyone reading this in Ireland? Near-ish to Dublin???

Em
		
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I live about an hour north of Dublin, near to the County Meath border.


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## BunnyDog (19 December 2017)

only_me said:



https://www.donedeal.ie/horses-for-sale/longfield-trinity-showjumper/17231649
https://www.donedeal.ie/horses-for-sale/7yr-showjumping-mare/17140216


I'm quite tempted by this one must admit 
https://www.donedeal.ie/horses-for-sale/16-1hh-irish-draught-gelding/17544287

Click to expand...

So this is where I start to sound nuts. 

Mares will cost me much more as we have to keep them in CEM quarantine for an additional 2 weeks or so. That can add up to $7k USD. Not ideal, for a superstar I might consider it, but it'd be tough.

This gelding is too drafty for my US friends and too loose with his front end. 

My current geldings jump like this...and I look for that same type of instincts.

https://flic.kr/s/aHsmc3LtMR


Em


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## only_me (19 December 2017)

No can see why the draft isn't suitable, its got nice breeding and seems quite a nice type, would do well in irish draught classes here and would then probably sell well in england. I'd say his jump would improve over higher fences also  
It would be a fun project but not what you'd want  


http://www.horsequest.co.uk/advertisment/182834

http://www.horsequest.co.uk/advertisment/183004


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## Bernster (19 December 2017)

Ooh I like the draft. Agree I think that type does well in the uk market. But can see he might not be what the op wants.  Am enjoying this thread and looking forward to ops next visit/purchase!

ETA or is it draught??


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## only_me (19 December 2017)

Bernster said:



			ETA or is it draught??
		
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draught!

I'm in christmas mood (even though still on placement) so a nice draft was obviously in my mind


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## Colivet (20 December 2017)

BunnyDog said:



			Seeing if anyone from that area might know a person who competes in jumpers. This is by far the biggest hail Mary idea I've got. 

Em
		
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I'm from Dublin though live an hour north in Meath.  Used to compete amateur show jumping (up to 1.20) and also used to judge a bit, so could probably suggest a few names within an hour north or south of Dublin - have PM'd you.


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## Bernster (20 December 2017)

only_me said:



			draught!

I'm in christmas mood (even though still on placement) so a nice draft was obviously in my mind 

Click to expand...

Hmm so we could be talking about an Irish horse breed, a drop of beer or a chill wind coming through the windows?!  I always forget how to spell the horsey version.


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## Cortez (20 December 2017)

Bernster said:



			Ooh I like the draft. Agree I think that type does well in the uk market. But can see he might not be what the op wants.  Am enjoying this thread and looking forward to ops next visit/purchase!

ETA or is it draught??
		
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Be aware that the US H/J horse is a very specialised type in conformation, movement and jumping style/way of going. The average "nice" horse here is not going to cut the mustard.


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## Tiddlypom (20 December 2017)

This book sounds fun.

https://www.amazon.com/Horse-Show-Boyfriend-Hunter-Circuit/dp/0692864547

ETA, a few years back there was a tv series following a group of young riders on the HJ circuit. It was fascinating, but I can't remember what it was called.


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## ycbm (20 December 2017)

Draft in the US. And why do Americans ride 'horseback' and Brits ride 'horses'?


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## BunnyDog (20 December 2017)

Tiddlypom said:



			This book sounds fun.

https://www.amazon.com/Horse-Show-Boyfriend-Hunter-Circuit/dp/0692864547

ETA, a few years back there was a tv series following a group of young riders on the HJ circuit. It was fascinating, but I can't remember what it was called.
		
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Great timing. It was called "Road to the Maclay" (Which is our Equitation Final) They just re-released it on demand through the USEF site. You can get a free Fan membership to watch it with a code they have.

https://www.usef.org/network/covera...etwork 11.29.17 - Non Member (1)&utm_content=

I would say that some of the nice horses in Ireland would be fine for me. I am not a six figure buyer or seller so I am a bit more likely to be realistic than some. That said the flaws are still out there and I try to avoid them. Just for a primer here's the no no's I work with:

Bad Xrays
Bad Scope
Bad Ultrasounds

Anything under 16.1
Anything with 1 or 3 pronounced socks (Makes them look lame to untrained eyes)
Chestnut mares
Chestnut geldings not ideal as they don't sell as well
Loose jumpers
Poor movers
Too old
Too young

All that being said the venn diagram of this list is still allowing for a lot of nice horses to come through and be well worth the investigation and trip to come try them. 

Emily


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## tristar (20 December 2017)

never underestimate chestnut mare.


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## Sheep (20 December 2017)

tristar said:



			never underestimate chestnut mare.
		
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I think OP is more concerned about the long term as she may ultimately wish to sell on, and they are hard to shift in the USA.


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## BunnyDog (20 December 2017)

tristar said:



			never underestimate chestnut mare.
		
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I agree with you 100% but the problem is that I made a deal with my husband that we would only buy horses that can be easily sold on if a financial problem arises. Chestnut mares are very difficult to sell on here. Actually mares in general are harder to sell than a gelding. 

That said my all time favorite mare was a chestnut who was 15.1 hands. I mean really 'useless' in the eyes of my fellow competitors and when we tried to sell her we couldn't. I free leased her to a friend to compete while she was for sale (This was when I had stopped riding for a while, but the mare and I had competed for 4 years up to US Preliminary level in eventing). I was about to give up on selling her and breed her to something bigger when she was unfortunately struck by lightning during a storm. 

I miss her still and I have not had another competition mare since. 

This is her first 3 day with me, doing the long format... she ran off with me on xc and we finished 45 seconds under time. **TIP** When your horse is 15.1 you don't need to follow the legging up charts for a 16.3 Tb. We did finish 7th out of 30 some odd starters though. Nice to finish in the top 10 at your first three day event.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mss8jYui1w0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01Kb9DF6LyQ

https://youtu.be/2HAhF8tVCIY

Em


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## cundlegreen (20 December 2017)

BunnyDog said:



			I agree with you 100% but the problem is that I made a deal with my husband that we would only buy horses that can be easily sold on if a financial problem arises. Chestnut mares are very difficult to sell on here. Actually mares in general are harder to sell than a gelding. 

That said my all time favorite mare was a chestnut who was 15.1 hands. I mean really 'useless' in the eyes of my fellow competitors and when we tried to sell her we couldn't. I free leased her to a friend to compete while she was for sale (This was when I had stopped riding for a while, but the mare and I had competed for 4 years up to US Preliminary level in eventing). I was about to give up on selling her and breed her to something bigger when she was unfortunately struck by lightning during a storm. 

I miss her still and I have not had another competition mare since. 

This is her first 3 day with me, doing the long format... she ran off with me on xc and we finished 45 seconds under time. **TIP** When your horse is 15.1 you don't need to follow the legging up charts for a 16.3 Tb. We did finish 7th out of 30 some odd starters though. Nice to finish in the top 10 at your first three day event.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mss8jYui1w0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01Kb9DF6LyQ

https://youtu.be/2HAhF8tVCIY



Em
		
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All my best horses have been mares, including a chestnut one! As I breed, I'm more than happy to buy a nice mare rather than a gelding, as I find them more straight forward, and empathic to their rider. I'm intrigued to know what a "loose rider/jumper" means? Is that what I would call a "dangler", meaning it doesn't bring the shoulders up when jumping? my pet hate, esp for eventing!


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## Bernster (20 December 2017)

She's looks like a cracking little horse.  What a shame to lose her in a freak accident like that.


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## BunnyDog (20 December 2017)

She was great.  Very reliable to the jumps.  Dressage was a bit of an effort but she taught me what having a solid partner is like.  She's the foundation still for many skills I learned as a rider with her.  

I appreciate a wonderful mare but I think the way our riders are these days there's a lot more riders into the instant gratification factor.  The mares temperaments can often be a bit of a challenge to understand the long road view.  What I mean is that fewer riders invest the time needed to really bond with a mare. More folks try to dictate how the mares should behave and that seldom works.  I am not totally opposed to a mare but there has to be some amazing qualities to make it a no brainer situation.  

Loose is a dangler. I posted a link to how my boys jump a few pages ago.  But here it is again.  I'm very serious that I want a horse that is inclined to jump very tightly and with their shoulders up in front.  

https://www.flickr.com/photos/xctrygirl/albums/72157691220686095

Em


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## Northern Hare (20 December 2017)

I really enjoyed those clips of you competing @ Radnor 3DE with Genie!  She looked a great little horse - so incredibly bold!  It makes it even more sad that you lost her in the accident.

Also, those photos of the "Great Jumpers" - all of the horses are super, but I loved the palomino - he has such unusual markings!

Thanks again for taking the time to reply to all of our questions and observations - I'm finding it so fascinating to find out all about the horse culture in the US - like everyone else I'm sure who's reading this thread!!

I'm hoping that your perfect equine partner appears soon - we're all really rooting for you to find a super horse that fits the bill perfectly - and that you can possibly turn around and sell on for huge $$$$$'s!!  Then you can come back to the UK and Ireland to look for more - and post more videos!!!!!


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## tristar (20 December 2017)

oh lovely! you should have bred from her, i want one with that speed and bold spirit to breed from.


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## BunnyDog (21 December 2017)

tristar said:



			oh lovely! you should have bred from her, i want one with that speed and bold spirit to breed from.
		
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Sadly I didn't know on the day that it is possible to extract ovaries for this purpose in the first I think it's 12 hours after death.  

Lesson learned the hard way.  

Since he's a name I should mention that Bruce Davidson's mother in law,  the venerable Mrs. Hannum bred this mare.  Her grand dam was a 'cracking' timber racer.  4 mile races over solid fences and such.  

Em


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## BunnyDog (21 December 2017)

Northern Hare said:



			I really enjoyed those clips of you competing @ Radnor 3DE with Genie!  She looked a great little horse - so incredibly bold!  It makes it even more sad that you lost her in the accident.

Also, those photos of the "Great Jumpers" - all of the horses are super, but I loved the palomino - he has such unusual markings!

Thanks again for taking the time to reply to all of our questions and observations - I'm finding it so fascinating to find out all about the horse culture in the US - like everyone else I'm sure who's reading this thread!!

I'm hoping that your perfect equine partner appears soon - we're all really rooting for you to find a super horse that fits the bill perfectly - and that you can possibly turn around and sell on for huge $$$$$'s!!  Then you can come back to the UK and Ireland to look for more - and post more videos!!!!!
		
Click to expand...

The Palomino is "Max". He's my resale horse.  I got him I  Craigslist for $1800. He's 15.1 Paint horse.  Lovely and fun  guy. He's resting a green splint now but I love him.  Here's a playlist of him.  He was a bit over impressed at Devon but I was proud of him.  That's a tough arena for horses that haven't seen a lot of decoration and people up against the fence.  

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLKBarO_NR9rjN544WpEctR3k9I2yLTbwZ

Em


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## BunnyDog (21 December 2017)

So since I was home sick I posted on fb about the differences we've mentioned over vettings abd chestnut mares.  Safe to say I got a lot of interesting feedback.  Have a look if you like.  And friend me too! Would love to connect with all you lovely folks!

Em 

Link: https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10155236917482759&id=528382758


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## Tiddlypom (21 December 2017)

BunnyDog said:



			Great timing. It was called "Road to the Maclay" (Which is our Equitation Final) They just re-released it on demand through the USEF site. You can get a free Fan membership to watch it with a code they have.

https://www.usef.org/network/covera...etwork 11.29.17 - Non Member (1)&utm_content=

Click to expand...

Ooh, many thanks for that. I've just joined the USEF as a Fan member using the promo code, I'd like the chance to see Road to the Maclay again .


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## Leo Walker (21 December 2017)

I've never seen it so have joined and will watch it when I'm off over Christmas. Thank you!


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## JustMe22 (24 December 2017)

I'm  going to jump in and create extra confusion. I'm in South Africa where we base almost all of our riding disciplines on the UK system. A friend of mine actually exported a cheapie OTTB to the US for colossal amounts of money.

We have "Equitation" classes on top of working hunters
 Seems to be far more popular with juniors and pony riders than adults but essentially you come in, do a short flatwork test which is pre-determined. You then jump a course where normal jumping faults apply but the riders are also judged on how well they ride and the overall style of the round. At the upper levels or big events, the top riders after the first round on their horses switch horses and get about 5 minutes to watm up before jumping the track and doing the flatwork test on the borrowed horse. This would be about 1.20m fences.

Anything like that elsewhere?


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