# Treeless saddle sizing



## Taishi (13 September 2015)

Hey there, I have a question about treeless saddles; since I can't seem to find any lower in size than 16" and checked a size reference on a website for a particular brand am I right to assume that the seating is not t he same as the skirt? ie apparently the 16" is actually seated at 15" ? I need to know as I am considering one for my pony and she is currently using a 15" saddle as 16" was barely ideal and anything above that is a no-go for her.


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## Bertolie (13 September 2015)

Treeless saddles don't go by conventional inches, but by riders dress size. You need to look at saddles that fit 'you' not go by how many inches your horse needs in treed saddles.


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## Taishi (13 September 2015)

ok well being only around 32" (possible 33") waist I fit in the minimal saddle anyway.  However, I was also told that where the horse can carry weight is on the 9th to the 14th vertebrae and therefore a saddle that allows a rider to sit beyond this point is too long, especially for mares as it can damage their reproductive system.  This is why I said I can't sit any further back than 16" and ideally 15" is preferred.  However, I keep finding the smallest treeless is 16" and nothing less but I also read that the seating is less than the overall saddle size? How is a treeless measured? it is still measured the same as a standard saddle, front to back of the centre of the seat?


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## Sukistokes2 (13 September 2015)

There is a 16" version of the HM treeless saddle. The older version not the newest one, which only goes down to 17". This version is rare but I got it off eBay and I did see one advertised on the EE site. I have heard rumours of a 15" but have never seen one for sale. They are measured from pommel to cantle, not by your dress size. My lad is very short coupled and he has been going well in the 16" . If you contact them you can have a chat with Heather Moffett about sizing. Or contact you local fitter, you find them on the web site.


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## Under-the-radar (13 September 2015)

OP could you confirm what make of treeless saddle you are looking at?  Different makes of treeless have very different ways of measuring.  

Susistokes is correct that the HM Vogue is only available in 17" or 18".  However, the HM Flexee is available in 15", 16", 17" and 18".  The HM saddles are sized more closely to the way a treed saddle is, in comparison to other makes.  

The barefoot style saddles are sized for the rider, not the horse. If you go to the manufacturers website, you should be able to find sizing information which relates to that exact saddle.


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## Speedyfluff (13 September 2015)

Treeless saddles can be longer than conventional saddles because they don't have a fixed tree. Conventional saddles will spread the load all the way back to the furthest point of contact of the panels. Treeless do not. What is important is where the weight of the rider is concentrated, and having adequate padding.


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## Taishi (13 September 2015)

Under-the-radar said:



			OP could you confirm what make of treeless saddle you are looking at?  Different makes of treeless have very different ways of measuring.  

Susistokes is correct that the HM Vogue is only available in 17" or 18".  However, the HM Flexee is available in 15", 16", 17" and 18".  The HM saddles are sized more closely to the way a treed saddle is, in comparison to other makes.  

The barefoot style saddles are sized for the rider, not the horse. If you go to the manufacturers website, you should be able to find sizing information which relates to that exact saddle. 

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I was mainly looking at a Freemax as they're more affordable and I kind of like the design. I did check a couple of others such as EasyTrek and even Barefoot and could not find anything that was 15"


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## Taishi (13 September 2015)

Hmm, for some reason I couldn't find the "edit" button.. oh well.  Just wanted to be clear that I'm only 5ft 6 and I weigh around 10-11 stone, quite often around 10.5 stone.  So I'm not really overweight and I'm certainly not big, I don't think this would be too much trouble for me.


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## LHIS (13 September 2015)

Solution do some small ones, size 3 would probably suit you (and is what I ride in and I'm similar size & weight to you). Not cheap though, but available second hand for less.


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## Taishi (13 September 2015)

LHIS said:



			Solution do some small ones, size 3 would probably suit you (and is what I ride in and I'm similar size & weight to you). Not cheap though, but available second hand for less.
		
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erm, what exactly is "size 3" ? and what do ya mean by do some small ones? I'm confused as to what you're actually talking about..


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## LHIS (13 September 2015)

Solution is a treeless saddle brand, they offer various sizes which are based on rider weight. Their saddles in size 3 might be suitable for you. I suggest maybe have a look on their website?


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## Taishi (13 September 2015)

LHIS said:



			Solution is a treeless saddle brand, they offer various sizes which are based on rider weight. Their saddles in size 3 might be suitable for you. I suggest maybe have a look on their website?
		
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Yeah.. no way in hell would I be able to afford that and I wasn't asking for brand recommendation anyway.


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## LHIS (13 September 2015)

Fair enough, just trying to be helpful!


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## webble (13 September 2015)

She was only trying to help!



Taishi said:



			Yeah.. no way in hell would I be able to afford that and I wasn't asking for brand recommendation anyway.
		
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## julie111 (13 September 2015)

Taishi said:



			Yeah.. no way in hell would I be able to afford that and I wasn't asking for brand recommendation anyway.
		
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Manners!!


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## Taishi (13 September 2015)

julie111 said:



			Manners!!
		
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Whatever, I frankly get tired of this kind of crap happening in this forum!  I asked for advice about fitting *NOT* for personal recommended not to mention stupidly expensive brands and I get tired of stressing this to people on here!  Don't make me have to say it again.  Now would someone *please* give me some pointers about fitting, are treeless measured different or not? Why is it that I can't find 15" or do they simply not make them? Feel free to link me to some that are only if they are but please don't give me your personal recommendations for ones that are way too much money for the average person.  We may have horses but we don't grow money on trees.


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## MiJodsR2BlinkinTite (13 September 2015)

OP I think the simple answer is that Treeless saddles are NOT measured the same as Treed saddles. Which doesn't exactly make it easy to get one that will fit both you and the horse. 

If you are looking for a 15", you may find that one of the treeless brands catering for children's or "pup" sizes may be your best bet?

I'm sure that when I was looking, Barefoot did a size 0, which may be equivalent to roughly a size 15"??? The one I saw was on e-bay, they do come up from time to time, so may be worth looking on there and then you could contact the seller and ask them to send you exact measurements - most sellers are happy to do this. 

Not that I'm recommending Barefoot!! just saying that I'm sure they do a smaller size/children's size treeless saddle.

Hope this helps.


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## webble (13 September 2015)

Wow that's incredibly rude and not going to encourage people to help you. A second hand solution is around £800 so not silly money at all for a quality saddle


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## Taishi (13 September 2015)

MiJodsR2BlinkinTite said:



			OP I think the simple answer is that Treeless saddles are NOT measured the same as Treed saddles. Which doesn't exactly make it easy to get one that will fit both you and the horse. 

If you are looking for a 15", you may find that one of the treeless brands catering for children's or "pup" sizes may be your best bet?

I'm sure that when I was looking, Barefoot did a size 0, which may be equivalent to roughly a size 15"??? The one I saw was on e-bay, they do come up from time to time, so may be worth looking on there and then you could contact the seller and ask them to send you exact measurements - most sellers are happy to do this. 

Not that I'm recommending Barefoot!! just saying that I'm sure they do a smaller size/children's size treeless saddle.

Hope this helps.
		
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Oh ok cool, thanks for replying, tbh I found this more helpful.  However I did find this http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Synthetic...atching-Girth-stirupps-leather-/201407931139? claims to have 15" but its an known brand? anyone give me any insight on this? Has anyone had one or seen one of these before?  I also wish to know how they measure and how does one measure up for one and please don't suggest getting a saddler as that just costs more money, surely there's a way to do it?  Infact imo getting a saddler is just pointlessly expensive enough as I already know how to draw out a measurement and compare it to saddles without one but that of course is for treed, I wish to know how to measure up for treeless.



webble said:



			Wow that's incredibly rude and not going to encourage people to help you. A second hand solution is around £800 so not silly money at all for a quality saddle
		
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Glad you can afford that amount but for most of us thats our monthly wage and rent costs!


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## YorksG (13 September 2015)

OP you are contradicting yourself, you don't want recomendations, but then want to have brand recoemdations.
Never mind how rude you have been!


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## Leo Walker (14 September 2015)

Taishi said:



			Oh ok cool, thanks for replying, tbh I found this more helpful.  However I did find this http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Synthetic...atching-Girth-stirupps-leather-/201407931139? claims to have 15" but its an known brand? anyone give me any insight on this? Has anyone had one or seen one of these before?  I also wish to know how they measure and how does one measure up for one and please don't suggest getting a saddler as that just costs more money, surely there's a way to do it?  Infact imo getting a saddler is just pointlessly expensive enough as I already know how to draw out a measurement and compare it to saddles without one but that of course is for treed, I wish to know how to measure up for treeless.



Glad you can afford that amount but for most of us thats our monthly wage and rent costs!
		
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Umm, a £49.99 saddle isnt going to be any good! A decent, straight saddle cant be made and then sold for £49.99. Horses sadly ARE expensive! Mine costs me around 1/4 of my income and thats only on assisted DIY, and definitely doesnt cover new saddles etc. In fact my last saddle fitting appointment was £50. 

I'm very tight and hate spending money unless its on crap I dont really need, but I do accept that having a horse is a big financial drain and I suck it up. Mine has a quite expensive saddle, it was £1350 new. I got it very cheaply in a closing down sale, and its probably cost me another couple of hundred quid in flocking etc while it settles and back treatment after an idiot saddler flocked it wrongly! Its been worth its weight in gold though! His other saddles did technically fit, but according to my little cob they didnt fit well enough. The difference now he has a good quality saddle is amazing 

If you cant afford a decent second hand saddle then hang fire until you can. If you put a £49.99 saddle on your horse, no good is ever going to come of that! I think the Solution saddles go for about £500 second hand, so pretty reasonable  A decent second hand synthetic would be about £250/300 including fitting. However if you are 100% certain about going down the treeless route, then wait until you have saved up the money for a decent one second hand, rather than knackering your horse with a £49.99 one!


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## bluedanube (14 September 2015)

£49.99 and £20 p&p from India, I always wondered what sort of numpty would buy that type of product...


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## LHIS (14 September 2015)

Agreed. A £50 saddle will cost you in the long run with chiropractors costs to fix your poor horses back. 
Unfortunately for you OP horses are expensive, and though you can save money here and there a saddle should not be the thing you scrimp on. 

And for the record, I didn't have the money for my solution saddle waiting on my money tree for me, I saved up! Solution let you try before you buy too and loan you a saddle whilst you work out if it fits and is right for your horse and offer payment plans over 12 months, and they'll even fit it for you. £800 ish well spent I reckon!!


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## MiJodsR2BlinkinTite (14 September 2015)

Echoing the advice above re. "cheap" saddles from India. Can remember viewing a video somewhere (possibly on here?) re. a treeless saddle which was "made in India" and basically was stuffed full of wooden blocks and god-knows what else. Yes you can get them very cheaply, yes they may be tempting, but as others have said, not only are you liable to end up paying out far more for vet/chiro fees for your horse's back, you are also liable to put yourself in danger too with this sort of saddle.

This is just a suggestion OP, and I am aware that your budget is tight. I've been in that position, and so can empathise how difficult it is and how you have to prioritise your money, but may I suggest that while you are in the phase of thinking about treeless, it would be a sensible choice, and good economy as well, to trial one or two and see how you feel about going treeless as it in no way is the same as sitting on a treed saddle and you may find after all that you/your horse, doesn't like it! It does take about a week to get used to properly as your  core muscles have to re-adjust. The first time I sat on a treeless saddle it was a Heather Moffatt one, and I could hardly walk for a few days afterwards! But now I ride treeless out of choice.

Go onto the "Better Saddles" website as there are a few companies on there who offer the trial service. When I did this, it was an Exmoor Tree Free saddle, and cost £50 for a week. Yes I know that may sound a lot??, BUT IME it is VITAL to try a few treeless saddles before you buy, and you don't want to get one and then find out that treeless just doesn't suit you. Alternatively you could put up an advert on FB or similar social media, and ask if anyone in your area has the saddle size you want and please could you try it?? I've offered this service out of the goodness of my heart with my own lovely treeless saddle to people like friends-of-friends and people I know, as I am very aware of how important it is to try first before making a financial commitment. Dunno whereabouts you are in the country OP? I'm in Devon nr Exeter and if you were from this area I'd suggest you pop round.........

Following up on what others have said here, you'd be far better saving up and going for a saddle which is a good make but which you may be lucky to pick up on e-bay or Preloved etc which is cheaper simply because it has seen better days and is a bit tatty, like Barefoot, Torsion, Tree Free, etc., rather than get some brand new cut-price piece of plastic made by people who've never even seen a horse, which will cost you dear in the long run and may damage your horse permanently. It just isn't worth it.


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## madlady (14 September 2015)

OP I have a treeless saddle, (barefoot), it is sized for me I use it on all 3 of my horses.

On one of them it is longer than I would have if using a treed saddle as he is very compact but as treeless don't distribute the weight in the same way that a treed saddle does it doesn't matter.

Provided that the rider is positioned in the correct place then it doesn't cause a problem if the saddle itself (including skirt) is past where a treed saddle would come to as it doesn't cause the same issues.

The actual seat on mine is probably 16" but including the skirt it is nearer 19".  I can't say I've seen any much smaller than that apart from for children.


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## ester (14 September 2015)

The whole point OP is that different treeless brands measure their saddles differently hence the need to mention brands when discussing. 

DO NOT buy a £50 saddle from ebay, it will probably not be symmetrical, injure your horse and potentially be a safety risk from the inferior quality materials.


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## Taishi (14 September 2015)

MiJodsR2BlinkinTite said:



			Echoing the advice above re. "cheap" saddles from India. Can remember viewing a video somewhere (possibly on here?) re. a treeless saddle which was "made in India" and basically was stuffed full of wooden blocks and god-knows what else. Yes you can get them very cheaply, yes they may be tempting, but as others have said, not only are you liable to end up paying out far more for vet/chiro fees for your horse's back, you are also liable to put yourself in danger too with this sort of saddle.

This is just a suggestion OP, and I am aware that your budget is tight. I've been in that position, and so can empathise how difficult it is and how you have to prioritise your money, but may I suggest that while you are in the phase of thinking about treeless, it would be a sensible choice, and good economy as well, to trial one or two and see how you feel about going treeless as it in no way is the same as sitting on a treed saddle and you may find after all that you/your horse, doesn't like it! It does take about a week to get used to properly as your  core muscles have to re-adjust. The first time I sat on a treeless saddle it was a Heather Moffatt one, and I could hardly walk for a few days afterwards! But now I ride treeless out of choice.

Go onto the "Better Saddles" website as there are a few companies on there who offer the trial service. When I did this, it was an Exmoor Tree Free saddle, and cost £50 for a week. Yes I know that may sound a lot??, BUT IME it is VITAL to try a few treeless saddles before you buy, and you don't want to get one and then find out that treeless just doesn't suit you. Alternatively you could put up an advert on FB or similar social media, and ask if anyone in your area has the saddle size you want and please could you try it?? I've offered this service out of the goodness of my heart with my own lovely treeless saddle to people like friends-of-friends and people I know, as I am very aware of how important it is to try first before making a financial commitment. Dunno whereabouts you are in the country OP? I'm in Devon nr Exeter and if you were from this area I'd suggest you pop round.........

Following up on what others have said here, you'd be far better saving up and going for a saddle which is a good make but which you may be lucky to pick up on e-bay or Preloved etc which is cheaper simply because it has seen better days and is a bit tatty, like Barefoot, Torsion, Tree Free, etc., rather than get some brand new cut-price piece of plastic made by people who've never even seen a horse, which will cost you dear in the long run and may damage your horse permanently. It just isn't worth it.
		
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Thanks for your reply, this is certainly food for thought. Sorry for getting all snappy but honestly I get tired of this sort of thing on here, its the same with rugs and treed saddles and tbh my pony has been just fine wi th £20-£30 coats, bargins off Derby House that no one seems to like on here and a Hi Lite that *EVERYONE* uses in my area and was recommended to me by a saddler and yet again no one likes it on here! There's a well known fact that not everything works for every horse and some things aren't so bad if you got the horse that can cope with it.  My pony is very flat back, wide and low withers, she's native and can cope with the harshest of weather.  Its irony really, at first I was regretting buying her as she was very unwell, underweight and above all would not let me touch her at all, she wasn't like that when I bought her and I bought her mostly out of pity.  However now I could not trade her for the world, I don't care how much people offer me, she's my baby!  I don't mean to seem tight and I understand you get what you pay for but I really hate those who act too stuck up about products just because its cheap and cheerful rather than stupidly expensive.


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## ester (14 September 2015)

Nothing wrong with cheap and cheerful as long as it isn't dangerous, damaging or a false economy.


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## Under-the-radar (14 September 2015)

In all honesty it sounds like you are very new to treeless saddles. I would take a look at some of the companies who offer a trial period with their treeless saddles.  I know you said earlier you like the look of the freemax saddles, but this doesn't mean that it will fit or suit your horse.  Just because they are treeless, does not mean they will fit everything and anything. 

If you have a look at the "Better Saddles" website, they do trials on quite a range of treeless saddles.  It really is worth taking the time to try a few and see what is going to best suit you and your horse before you jump into buying anything. Once you know what you are looking for, then you can look at second hand.  There are plenty of good quality second hand saddles out there, which will do the job you want.  

Please do not buy a £50 as new treeless saddle!  There are good treeless and there are bad treeless - don't let your horse be the one to find out which are the bad.  Searching for reviews on any make you are interested in is also useful - although be warned, especially on HHO there is always someone who doesn't like a particular product / brand and will be fairly vocal about it !!  

Good luck with your search


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## Taishi (14 September 2015)

Under-the-radar said:



			In all honesty it sounds like you are very new to treeless saddles. I would take a look at some of the companies who offer a trial period with their treeless saddles.  I know you said earlier you like the look of the freemax saddles, but this doesn't mean that it will fit or suit your horse.  Just because they are treeless, does not mean they will fit everything and anything. 

If you have a look at the "Better Saddles" website, they do trials on quite a range of treeless saddles.  It really is worth taking the time to try a few and see what is going to best suit you and your horse before you jump into buying anything. Once you know what you are looking for, then you can look at second hand.  There are plenty of good quality second hand saddles out there, which will do the job you want.  

Please do not buy a £50 as new treeless saddle!  There are good treeless and there are bad treeless - don't let your horse be the one to find out which are the bad.  Searching for reviews on any make you are interested in is also useful - although be warned, especially on HHO there is always someone who doesn't like a particular product / brand and will be fairly vocal about it !!  

Good luck with your search 

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tbh I find more critiques saying "don't buy" who clearly never owned one than people reviewing who actually have.  I find the same with stuff such as rugs, I have a rug that has lasted me 3 years now and it was only £25! it wasn't even on offer, it was just a cheap rug, no special brand or anything.  Granted its got a tear in it but it is easily repaired and no where near as bad as some rugs I've seen get so easily torn up and cost alot more!  This is exactly why I grow tired of people's opinions on this community as all they seem to want to do is push expensive "top of the line" brands in your face rather than help you understand what it is you are looking for to suit your animal's needs.  Its like the kids back in school beating up those less fortunate because they don't have "top of the line" brands!  Yeah, I used to be one of them and I still am one of those who refuses to buy these over priced so called better brands because in reality they're not! Hell did you know Nike get theirs done by Asians for cheap?! That is a fact!  Heck I've even combats that matched my friend's ex's only difference is hers had a Nike tick at the bottom left of the ankle area, she paid £60, I paid £10, you do the math, same quality, mine has lasted more than 5-8 years and still wearable! no rips no tears!


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## Under-the-radar (14 September 2015)

Taishi said:



			tbh I find more critiques saying "don't buy" who clearly never owned one than people reviewing who actually have.  I find the same with stuff such as rugs, I have a rug that has lasted me 3 years now and it was only £25! it wasn't even on offer, it was just a cheap rug, no special brand or anything.  Granted its got a tear in it but it is easily repaired and no where near as bad as some rugs I've seen get so easily torn up and cost alot more!  This is exactly why I grow tired of people's opinions on this community as all they seem to want to do is push expensive "top of the line" brands in your face rather than help you understand what it is you are looking for to suit your animal's needs.  Its like the kids back in school beating up those less fortunate because they don't have "top of the line" brands!  Yeah, I used to be one of them and I still am one of those who refuses to buy these over priced so called better brands because in reality they're not! Hell did you know Nike get theirs done by Asians for cheap?! That is a fact!  Heck I've even combats that matched my friend's ex's only difference is hers had a Nike tick at the bottom left of the ankle area, she paid £60, I paid £10, you do the math, same quality, mine has lasted more than 5-8 years and still wearable! no rips no tears!
		
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This isn't a rug you are talking about though.  This is a saddle - that you will sit in and will go on your horses back.  Any poor fitting saddle will create pressure points - poorly fitting AND badly made / designed saddles will only increase these! 

There is a time and a place for heading straight for the bargain basement.  Rugs / headcollars can all be picked up at very reasonable prices.   A saddle that costs £50 new to buy is never have had the testing and quality of design put into it that is necessary.  This isn't me telling you to buy a top of the range saddle - I'm suggesting you buy one from a reputable manufacturer, one that has had testing carried out on it, one that has been made from quality materials and one that has not been filled with whatever rubbish the manufacturer has found in their workshop.  

Pressure points from treeless saddles are a far bigger deal than treed saddles because they don't have the tree to disperse the weight you put into the saddle.  Going treeless does not mean cheap - most reputable manufacturers of treeless saddles will have recommendations of pads that you should use with your treeless.  They have these recommendations for a reason - not because they are raking in the profits, but because that is what works with that saddle.  

You do seem rather intent on buying one of these £50 saddles off ebay, so I will wish you the very best of luck.  

Do you have the number of a good physiotherapist and vet who will be able to treat your horse? 

Good luck


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## Taishi (14 September 2015)

Under-the-radar said:



			This isn't a rug you are talking about though.  This is a saddle - that you will sit in and will go on your horses back.  Any poor fitting saddle will create pressure points - poorly fitting AND badly made / designed saddles will only increase these! 

There is a time and a place for heading straight for the bargain basement.  Rugs / headcollars can all be picked up at very reasonable prices.   A saddle that costs £50 new to buy is never have had the testing and quality of design put into it that is necessary.  This isn't me telling you to buy a top of the range saddle - I'm suggesting you buy one from a reputable manufacturer, one that has had testing carried out on it, one that has been made from quality materials and one that has not been filled with whatever rubbish the manufacturer has found in their workshop.  

Pressure points from treeless saddles are a far bigger deal than treed saddles because they don't have the tree to disperse the weight you put into the saddle.  Going treeless does not mean cheap - most reputable manufacturers of treeless saddles will have recommendations of pads that you should use with your treeless.  They have these recommendations for a reason - not because they are raking in the profits, but because that is what works with that saddle.  

You do seem rather intent on buying one of these £50 saddles off ebay, so I will wish you the very best of luck.  

Do you have the number of a good physiotherapist and vet who will be able to treat your horse? 

Good luck 

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I mentioned the rugs as an *example* of what this community is like when it comes to horse products since they have given me similar feedback on those and my rugs have been pretty damn good so far!  I also pointed out I do own a Hi Lite which again *is* a cheep and cheerful saddle, I paid £50 for mine! :O shocking! Seems fine to me >_>  So like I said my point is people on here want to push top brands in your face rather than giving advice on finding what works for your horse such as item fitting vs budget! People on here seem to think we're all made of money and can just throw it away at any time and once again I'm deeply regretting bothering to ask when really all I wanted to know is about the god damn fitting of a treeless saddle!  And YES I'll be *****ing rude about it when people aren't being all that helpful and just want to get on a high horse, pun intended. If you don't want to help or can't appreciate what I'm saying and don't want to be told when you're clearly in the wrong then refrain from commenting at all, saves me the hassle of reading it and sieving through the thread I posted for those who actually do understand and do want to help.


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## Taishi (14 September 2015)

Oh and one more thing; you do know the manufacturer of Freemax is a former from Freeform right? Just because they are cheaper doesn't mean they don't know what they're doing.  Probably left because they didn't agree on ripping people off!


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## Under-the-radar (14 September 2015)

Yes - I will always get on my "high horse" when it comes to doing the best by my horses.  

As I say - good luck


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## ester (14 September 2015)

I have to say I do tend to take note of some of the people on here who have had the opportunity to take some of these saddles apart/inspect their symmetry etc. Freeform and freemax both seem to have a good rep though and as you say the latter was set up by someone involved in the former.


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## Leo Walker (14 September 2015)

Taishi said:



			Seems fine to me >_>
		
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Jolly good! I cant believe it is, as I can imagine a single horse they would fit. Never mind a wide, flat native type. 

I really dont get why you think people on here push expensive brands? I've been raving about my new cheapy Shires rug on here in the last few days. 

But £49.99 saddles knocked up in India are never ever going to be recommended by anyone with any sense! I'm also pretty sure you did get some advice about budget saddles and possible solutions


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## MotherOfChickens (14 September 2015)

Taishi said:



			Oh and one more thing; you do know the manufacturer of Freemax is a former from Freeform right? Just because they are cheaper doesn't mean they don't know what they're doing.  Probably left because they didn't agree on ripping people off!
		
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Freemax's have a pretty good rep although they aren't apparently up to hard use or jumping lots etc. I've seen a few on eBay recently for under £100.

Are you wanting a treeless because you want a treeless? or because she's proving hard to fit? I recently gave up with treeless on one of my natives, I had both a Torsion and a Barefoot (both secondhand, both about £250). The Barefoot was a size 2 but huge, think pony and I could have done with a size 1 (I am a 12-14) but I was never happy with the stability, overall length (even though there's no hard points in the length to worry about, the actual skirt can rub the hair just before the loins if saddle is on the long side) and pommel insert/removal or. Both Torsion and Barefoot were size twos but varied in back length but about 5cms and the Barefoot seat area was much bigger. 

I have just spent £45 on a well known, in very good condition, treed synthetic that fits said pony very well. Other horse has a Wow so both ends of the scale! 


I do get what you mean about perception of budgets-I was looking for a lorry recently and daren't ask on here because people would automatically say they wouldn't spend less that £20K on one and that wasn't happening! But if you post something and people take the time to answer well, you don't have to take it on board or be snippy.

I wouldnt go for a Ysrd saddle, they look utter pish.  The beauty of eBay is that everything you want will come up again-look out for auctions that end at odd times, those saddles listed incorrectly or put in cheeky offers. Whatever treeless you get, a good pad is essential, again from £50 secondhand.


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## Taishi (14 September 2015)

ester said:



			I have to say I do tend to take note of some of the people on here who have had the opportunity to take some of these saddles apart/inspect their symmetry etc. Freeform and freemax both seem to have a good rep though and as you say the latter was set up by someone involved in the former.
		
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Yeah well unfortunately I don't think any of those people have posted in this thread else they'd give me some actual feedback on them.  But yes, it has been stated on a few sites regarding Freemax that its creator is a former FreeForm manufacturer and had left believing he could take his design and make it more affordable.  Granted FreeForm will have changed and perhaps even *improved* since then but this still doesn't mean that Freemax is bad, sadly I've yet to find these reviews though regarding his work, probably no one buys them in order to review cus people likes these put them off doing so.



FrankieCob said:



			Jolly good! I cant believe it is, as I can imagine a single horse they would fit. Never mind a wide, flat native type. 

I really dont get why you think people on here push expensive brands? I've been raving about my new cheapy Shires rug on here in the last few days. 

But £49.99 saddles knocked up in India are never ever going to be recommended by anyone with any sense! I'm also pretty sure you did get some advice about budget saddles and possible solutions
		
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fyi the Hi Lite is perfect for a flat back as it self adjusts to fit around the body of the horse and mainly, assumably, the withers though my fitter did say if she was *not* a flat back/low withered she would not recommend as the Hi Lite has been known to pinch around the withers and cause more harm that way.  So yeah, Hi Lite may not be good for some horses but doesn't mean that it won't be ok for all horses and frankly if you think its not suitable for flat backs it shows how much you really know.  As for being made in India; alot of things are made in India! Do you get picky about your own clothes because its made in foreign countries?! if so god help you find what fits and not overly priced! As I pointed out even Nike use countries such as India to produce their clothing and they're well overpriced!  Hell, alot of our stuff even comes from China and if you look on ebay alot of their products are cheap, I suppose I shouldn't buy from them too huh?!  I'm also surprised that no one on here has criticise you over Shires as most seem to consider them a cheap and crappy company, hell they made they Hi Lite did they not?!   Seriously, educate yourself before ranting about stuff like this please.. And once again I ask you guys *NOT* to comment if you can't give me anything helpful to read in regards to my original request, thanks!


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## Taishi (14 September 2015)

MotherOfChickens said:



			Freemax's have a pretty good rep although they aren't apparently up to hard use or jumping lots etc. I've seen a few on eBay recently for under £100.

Are you wanting a treeless because you want a treeless? or because she's proving hard to fit? I recently gave up with treeless on one of my natives, I had both a Torsion and a Barefoot (both secondhand, both about £250). The Barefoot was a size 2 but huge, think pony and I could have done with a size 1 (I am a 12-14) but I was never happy with the stability, overall length (even though there's no hard points in the length to worry about, the actual skirt can rub the hair just before the loins if saddle is on the long side) and pommel insert/removal or. Both Torsion and Barefoot were size twos but varied in back length but about 5cms and the Barefoot seat area was much bigger. 

I have just spent £45 on a well known, in very good condition, treed synthetic that fits said pony very well. Other horse has a Wow so both ends of the scale! 


I do get what you mean about perception of budgets-I was looking for a lorry recently and daren't ask on here because people would automatically say they wouldn't spend less that £20K on one and that wasn't happening! But if you post something and people take the time to answer well, you don't have to take it on board or be snippy.

I wouldnt go for a Ysrd saddle, they look utter pish.  The beauty of eBay is that everything you want will come up again-look out for auctions that end at odd times, those saddles listed incorrectly or put in cheeky offers. Whatever treeless you get, a good pad is essential, again from £50 secondhand.
		
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Thanks for your reply, glad there's someone on here that isn't so uptight about cheaper alternatives and understands where I'm coming from.  I am interested in treeelss because I am a strong believer in all the natural horsemanship stuff and of course there's nothing more satisfying than riding a horse more naturally rather than putting it through hell with the medieval contraptions that some people still use today!  I am curious to know however which saddle you speak of you say you got for your pony?  Interesting you mention YSRD as they look the same as Freemax and I'm actually now considering buying a Freemax off Amazon as it seems to be a bit cheaper and returning to them is far easier and less costly than someone from India lol.


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## Under-the-radar (14 September 2015)

Your original post was asking how to measure for a treeless - but as I have said a couple of times, it depends on what make.  Every make is measured differently.  Still would suggest looking at trialling a few and actually finding out what will work for you and your horse.  

FWIW I have tried Torsion, Barefoot, Freemax, Copperbeach saddles until I gave a HM Flexee a go.  So yes - I have been there and tried them


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## MotherOfChickens (14 September 2015)

Taishi said:



			Thanks for your reply, glad there's someone on here that isn't so uptight about cheaper alternatives and understands where I'm coming from.  I am interested in treeelss because I am a strong believer in all the natural horsemanship stuff and of course there's nothing more satisfying than riding a horse more naturally rather than putting it through hell with the medieval contraptions that some people still use today!  I am curious to know however which saddle you speak of you say you got for your pony?  Interesting you mention YSRD as they look the same as Freemax and I'm actually now considering buying a Freemax off Amazon as it seems to be a bit cheaper and returning to them is far easier and less costly than someone from India lol.
		
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there are a lot of freemax rip offs just as there are Barefoot and torsion rip offs. When you see a Barefoot/Torsion in the flesh you can see the quality of them-the leather, stitching etc. with cheapo foreign saddles, many will not have been flocked well or flocked with something you'd like a saddle to be flocked with! But tbh, its not just cheap foreign saddles, there are horror stories with others as well. Barefoots and Torsions hold their SH value, I had no problems selling them for the same money.

Treeless are a nice idea, they will not suit every rider or every horse. An unsuitable treeless will be every bit as bad as an unsuitable treed saddle.

I bought a thorowgood endurance saddle for my pony. I already had an older one which was just slightly too narrow so I waited until I found one that measured slightly wider. 


I've just looked on amazon and if you mean the £60 Freemaxs, I am sure they aren't the real deal-I was talking about the  Freemax Acavallo saddles, which are more expensive. a real Freemax wil have a badge on the back of the cantle.


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## LHIS (14 September 2015)

OP, at no point in your original thread before I was so 'unhelpful' with my suggestion about investigating the Solution brand did you mention a budget constraint of seemingly 50 quid.  If you can find a bargain treeless saddle that fits your pony well and suits you (the whole point of treeless) then great!  Your attitude stinks though, you asked a question and myself and others (with our money trees) only tried to be helpful.  Good luck to you and to your pony.


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## ester (14 September 2015)

If it helps OP CremedeMonthe is a saddler who has taken a fair few saddles apart in their time

https://forums-secure.horseandhound...Shires-Hi-lite-saddle&highlight=shires+saddle
https://forums-secure.horseandhound...-Saddles-Yay-or-Neigh&highlight=shires+saddle


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## ihatework (14 September 2015)

Taishi said:



			Thanks for your reply, glad there's someone on here that isn't so uptight about cheaper alternatives and understands where I'm coming from.  I am interested in treeelss because I am a strong believer in all the natural horsemanship stuff and of course there's nothing more satisfying than riding a horse more naturally rather than putting it through hell with the medieval contraptions that some people still use today!  I am curious to know however which saddle you speak of you say you got for your pony?  Interesting you mention YSRD as they look the same as Freemax and I'm actually now considering buying a Freemax off Amazon as it seems to be a bit cheaper and returning to them is far easier and less costly than someone from India lol.
		
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If you want to be all fluffy and au natural then how about riding bareback instead of putting awful Indian rubbish on your horses back, whilst saving for a more quality item?


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## ester (14 September 2015)

The freemax on amazon would be no better than buying the £50 ebay one... . and certainly not sold my anyone involved in freeform!


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## Taishi (14 September 2015)

Under-the-radar said:



			Your original post was asking how to measure for a treeless - but as I have said a couple of times, it depends on what make.  Every make is measured differently.  Still would suggest looking at trialling a few and actually finding out what will work for you and your horse.  

FWIW I have tried Torsion, Barefoot, Freemax, Copperbeach saddles until I gave a HM Flexee a go.  So yes - I have been there and tried them 

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Well then can you list their sizes minimal to highest? preferbly Freemax as I'm struggling to find the "real deal" with those things, if you have a link to the real thing I'd appreciate it.



ihatework said:



			If you want to be all fluffy and au natural then how about riding bareback instead of putting awful Indian rubbish on your horses back, whilst saving for a more quality item?
		
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Because I am not fully confident to do so and feel a treeless is a step in that direction over having a bareback pad and I won't be buying one of those with stirrups as it kind of defeats the purpose so treeless is the next best thing not to mention there are many benefits over treed saddles that I agree on.  As stated, the things most people use are just medieval torture devices for horses, we've researched and created new things such as treeless saddles and bitless bridles and imo we should use them! why keep using things that cause more harm than good?!


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## sychnant (14 September 2015)

Actually, many of the cheap treeless saddles create a pressure point over the back, as they are very flexible and the strap that the stirrups attach to presses down. They also don't spread the weight of the rider as there is no tree to do so.

I had a Freemax - a proper one, not a cheap copy - and found that it was very unstable on my wide, low withered horse. A decent pad to go under a treeless, which is an absolute "must" to help avoid the stirrup strap problem mentioned above, is also very expensive - I couldn't find a new one for less than £100, and very few second hand ones were available.


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## MotherOfChickens (14 September 2015)

Taishi said:



			As stated, the things most people use are just medieval torture devices for horses,
		
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they really are not. 

another budget treeless is the Libra. The treks can be found second hand

http://libraequestrian.com/treeless-saddles.html


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## Under-the-radar (15 September 2015)

Taishi said:



			Well then can you list their sizes minimal to highest? preferbly Freemax as I'm struggling to find the "real deal" with those things, if you have a link to the real thing I'd appreciate it.
		
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I've been riding in my Flexee for 2 years now, so I honestly can't remember.  If you have a look on the manufacturer's websites, you will be able to find sizing information.  

I can tell you what I found with each of the saddles I tried: 

Copperbeach saddle - lower end of the budget.  I am size 8-10 and tall and I found this saddle comfortable.  I did use this on several different horses and the one major drawback was the block at the back of the seat - I found this rubbed my coccyx and if on a long ride I would get very sore (I do have issues with my coccyx anyway, so just highlighted the issue).  Even on my very sensitive mare, I did not have any issues with pressure related pain - BUT I always used a fairly high quality numnah and sheepskin half pad with gel inserts under the saddle.  The gel inserts did lie fairly well in line with where the stirrups were, so may have helped.  Zero knee blocks, but I didn't find this a problem (I mainly do walk /trot hacking and dressage).  If you wanted to jump, it wouldn't really be suitable I think 

Torsion - higher budget version of Copperbeach.  Seat was slightly better than on Copperbeach - but I didn't spend as much time in the Torsion I must admit.  You certainly would need good quality pads under the Torsion as well IMO. 

Freemax - This was a proper freemax that I picked up second hand - this did NOT suit me or my horse at all.  The edge of the saddle (all the way round it) dug into my horse and made sore points very quickly.  The seat actually seemed to have less twist in it that the Copperbeach / Torsion style saddles, which meant that as soon as we went down a hill, I would just slide down to the front of the saddle.  I tried this saddle with various pads to try and alleviate pressure on my horse, but nothing helped.  I found the saddle very uncomfy for me too - but equally my sister had ridden in one for quite some time, and really seemed to like it for her.  Just IMO, I wouldn't bother with one of these again - but mainly because I like more support in the seat. 

Barefoot - I had a Barefoot London dressage saddle.  Incredibly comfy - I had a size 1 I think.  Absolutely perfect for hacking and the few endurance training rides we did.  Proper pads absolutely needed with this saddle, although the newer models to have some slight padding to help alleviate spinal pressure.  I really did enjoy this saddle a lot, and I was very tempted to get another to put on my youngster.  The model I had did have knee blocks, but I have very pathetic legs, and the knee blocks really were not in any place of any use.  The main reason I moved on from this saddle was that I was starting to focus more on dressage, and I was finding that I needed more support from my saddle than the Barefoot could give me. 

HM Flexee - I have been using my Flexee for 2 years now and can honestly say that my position has transformed since using this saddle.  It is still not a miracle cure, and it will NOT fit every horse, but I have got it fitting my very strangely shaped mare.  It is also the first saddle that I have actually been comfortable in.  The Flexee's are sized the same as treed saddles, and also have the appearance of treed saddles.  The internal design does depend on how old the saddle is - the newest versions have interchangeable gullets to set the width (like the Wintec gullets), older versions have no gullet, and the oldest ones have a fixed width gullet.  The tree in the saddle is leather though, so there is movement in the saddle.  


Out of these saddles, the one I have been most impressed with is the Flexee - it is what I have just got my youngster.  

These are just my opinions from the saddles I have tried - again very must stress that it is individual and you will need to try these things yourself to find out what works for you.  You may well like the look of the Freemax saddles, but it doesn't mean that you will be able to fit it to your horse, or you will be comfy in it.  

Treeless does not mean that every saddle will fit every horse!


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## Taishi (15 September 2015)

Under-the-radar said:



			click view post above
		
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See now *this* is feedback instead of seemingly bias comments where it feels like certain brands are just being shoved in my face just because people don't agree with what I've seen which to me is more affordable.  I mean its not that I don't understand nor am I arrogant in regards to cheaper knock offs of official brands but again its not like *some* cheaper replicas are all that bad.  I do understand now that there is an official Freemax that I was clearly unaware of vs the unofficial that some people would clearly say are far worse, which is a real shame, so if its any consolation thanks for that insight guys.  However, I posted to request info on sizing, you could have at least linked me to size charts or recommended brands that do have sizes that will fit my pony rather than getting on your high horses bad mouthing about a specific saddle without giving any good reason why other than bias arrogance and seemingly racist comments referring to "Do not touch Indian products" which most of you pretty much say.  I actually have a bitless bridle from India and my only real problem with it was that its too big, the nose band is too low and I suspect its because I probably needed a smaller size so maybe that was my error though I'm not entirely sure and I do have a smaller one coming in but from a different person as I've opted for a changeable rope version so we'll see how that goes.  Anyway, my point is that most of you just wanted to argue about what I was looking at rather than informing me what will fit my pony and that's what bothered me the most.

I now have another question, what exactly is a "cub saddle" ? is it referring to kids size? it seems alot of them are mixed brands rather than one specific and constantly referred to as "kids" so I'm wondering whether they are and if so thats no real good to me as I really do need a 15" and I think any smaller would be just pushing it for my own size.


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## Tiddlypom (15 September 2015)

ihatework said:



			If you want to be all fluffy and au natural then how about riding bareback instead of putting awful Indian rubbish on your horses back, whilst saving for a more quality item?
		
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Quite, and this is what I did when I got back into horse ownership as an impecunious adult, and was saving up for a saddle that fitted my section D.


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## Under-the-radar (15 September 2015)

Taishi said:



			See now *this* is feedback instead of seemingly bias comments where it feels like certain brands are just being shoved in my face just because people don't agree with what I've seen which to me is more affordable.  I mean its not that I don't understand nor am I arrogant in regards to cheaper knock offs of official brands but again its not like *some* cheaper replicas are all that bad.  I do understand now that there is an official Freemax that I was clearly unaware of vs the unofficial that some people would clearly say are far worse, which is a real shame, so if its any consolation thanks for that insight guys.  However, I posted to request info on sizing, you could have at least linked me to size charts or recommended brands that do have sizes that will fit my pony rather than getting on your high horses bad mouthing about a specific saddle without giving any good reason why other than bias arrogance and seemingly racist comments referring to "Do not touch Indian products" which most of you pretty much say.  I actually have a bitless bridle from India and my only real problem with it was that its too big, the nose band is too low and I suspect its because I probably needed a smaller size so maybe that was my error though I'm not entirely sure and I do have a smaller one coming in but from a different person as I've opted for a changeable rope version so we'll see how that goes.  Anyway, my point is that most of you just wanted to argue about what I was looking at rather than informing me what will fit my pony and that's what bothered me the most.

I now have another question, what exactly is a "cub saddle" ? is it referring to kids size? it seems alot of them are mixed brands rather than one specific and constantly referred to as "kids" so I'm wondering whether they are and if so thats no real good to me as I really do need a 15" and I think any smaller would be just pushing it for my own size.
		
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Actually I haven't once said "Don't touch Indian products" - I have suggested that buying a saddle that is £50 as new is not advisable.   I have told you that I have been using my Flexee saddle for 2 years and cannot remember the sizing of the saddles I had - given that it was OVER TWO YEARS AGO. 

I have suggested several times now that you visit some of the manufacturers websites for information on sizing - as every manufacturer has different sizing on their saddles.  Why on earth should I do your leg work for you and spend the time to go and give you a list of links - you obviously have internet access, so go and use Google to search.  www.google.com if you can't be bothered to search for that. 

You are going to have to put some time into this yourself and do some research - I can't do this for you - you need to have the information.  I already have the information I needed for me and my horse - I have already done the leg work to find this out.


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## Under-the-radar (15 September 2015)

Taishi said:



			I now have another question, what exactly is a "cub saddle" ? is it referring to kids size? it seems alot of them are mixed brands rather than one specific and constantly referred to as "kids" so I'm wondering whether they are and if so thats no real good to me as I really do need a 15" and I think any smaller would be just pushing it for my own size.
		
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A cub saddle is designed for kiddies.  I am 8-10 and have ridden in a cub saddle in the past.  You won't have knee rolls - I also am not sure if there is an upper weight limit for using the cub saddle.  Something else you can do some research into maybe. 

If you google cub saddle (see link in my post above to google) I am sure you will find some images and also reviews on them.


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## ester (15 September 2015)

Surely the whole point of mentioning brand names is that google will find you any size charts of those you are interested in?

To suggest that saying buying a £50 saddle which happens to be mass produced in India is racist is quite :eek3:. People have given reasons for not buying one not based on the fact that everyone else is ripping you off, more on the wellbeing of you and your horse.


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## Taishi (15 September 2015)

Ya know what? I'm done here.  If an admin reads this please just close this thread, I don't want any more responses from anyone.  Those who have given me useful comments I thank you but I've had enough of those who are just full of themselves and too eager to argue and talk down to others and meanwhile want to call *me* the rude one.  Lesson learned I will *not* seek any further advice and guidance from the people in these forums as this wouldn't be the first time I've had to deal with this kind of crap. Some of you ought to hang your heads in shame, its people like that who really do let this community down for others.  Thanks, I'm out.


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## Leo Walker (15 September 2015)

Dont let the door smack you in the arse on the way out


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## LHIS (15 September 2015)

Good riddance!


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## ester (15 September 2015)




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## PollyP99 (15 September 2015)

I thought all schools were now back in session, clearly the odd sulky teen still on the rampage!

What was that all about, told that sizing is not the same, told that it is your butt not the horses size that matters, told not to buy cheap Indian trash, told where to go to get good info...she slams door and scurries off!  Weird ...


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## Shady (15 September 2015)

thank god for that, talk about a stick up the arse and a chip on the shoulder so large i'm surprised she can walk under the weight of it, somebody clearly didn't teach her any manners, incredibly rude


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## MotherOfChickens (15 September 2015)

PollyP99 said:



			I thought all schools were now back in session, clearly the odd sulky teen still on the rampage!

What was that all about, told that sizing is not the same, told that it is your butt not the horses size that matters, told not to buy cheap Indian trash, told where to go to get good info...she slams door and scurries off!  Weird ...
		
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no, we just didnt tell her what she wanted to hear ie £50 new saddles are amayzing and that cub saddles are for adults.


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## Buddy'sMum (15 September 2015)

Am I the only one wondering how someone who weighs 11 stone expects to fit their derrière into a 15" saddle?


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## Meowy Catkin (15 September 2015)

Taishi said:



			this wouldn't be the first time I've had to deal with this kind of crap.
		
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That I guess that refers to the fly rug thread where I said that I found that getting a better quality one in the sales was better value than buying a cheapo one full price?


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## webble (15 September 2015)

Buddy'sMum said:



			Am I the only one wondering how someone who weighs 11 stone expects to fit their derrière into a 15" saddle?
		
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No you aren't I just couldn't be bothered arguing!


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## Shady (15 September 2015)

Buddy'sMum said:



			Am I the only one wondering how someone who weighs 11 stone expects to fit their derrière into a 15" saddle?
		
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i thought the same thing but didn't like to point it out , she was also so rude i felt disinclined to offer any help at all, her views on the fashion industry are also incorrect, i should know i worked in it for 20 years, it never ceases to amaze me how people don't realize that EVERYBODY wants to make a profit in the clothing industry so that cheap pair of jeans that looks like a posh pair is probably being made in an even worse place by people on even less money.


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## Speedyfluff (15 September 2015)

Just come back to this thread and can't believe how it's deteriorated. OP, you have a serious attitude problem, both towards the people who have tried to help you on this thread and to your cheapskate approach to caring for your horse. And FWIW I too did a double take when you described yourself as being small enough for a 15 inch saddle but was too polite to mention it! Now though, having seen your rudeness, why should I be polite?


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## BlackRider (15 September 2015)

Speedyfluff said:



			Just come back to this thread and can't believe how it's deteriorated. OP, you have a serious attitude problem, both towards the people who have tried to help you on this thread and to your cheapskate approach to caring for your horse. And FWIW I too did a double take when you described yourself as being small enough for a 15 inch saddle but was too polite to mention it! Now though, having seen your rudeness, why should I be polite?
		
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I thought the same too, when she said a 32" waist I assumed it was a typo, to fit in a 15" saddle...


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